# Sodium Ascorbate



## sebarnes (Feb 2, 2005)

Where do you buy your Sodium Ascorbate? None of our Health Food Stores carry it - Ascorbic Acid, but no Sodium Ascorbate. I want to lay some up "against the season" so to speak, in case of flu, pertussis, etc. Is there a good place online that I could order from? TIA!


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

I buy from Bronson Laboratories Item # 50B. They seem to have the best price and they are online. Dont have the addy offhand.


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## Annikate (Aug 2, 2005)

Hi,
Got a tip on the Dental forum that sodium ascorbate is good for your gums. Seabarnes, I'm glad you asked this question because I can't find it locally either. BTW, what *is* the difference between sodium ascorbate and ascorbic acid? Can anyone tell me?
Thanks!


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Ascorbic acid, is vitamin C without a buffer. It's very acid, and if you ever use it, use it one to one with sodium bicarbonate.

The first sign of vitamin C deficiency is red gums where the collagen bonds have broken down, and the cells are going spongy, and they bleed when brushed. Vitamin C deficiency is THE primary cause for most gum disorders such as "gingivitis".

But if you have gum redness, then you can also be sure that the rest of your body inside is going the same way.


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## Mommy To Baby Roni (Mar 21, 2003)

I'm too tired to get up and look in the vitamin cabinet right now, but isn't it packaged as "Ester-C" here, in the states?


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## Mommymama (Aug 23, 2002)

Mine is Nutribiotic (Lakeport, CA 95453) Sodium Ascorbate Crystalline Powder (Buffered Vitamin C Pharmaceutical Grade pH 7.1). It is made by dissolving pharmaceutical grade ascorbic acid with sodium bicarbonate derived from sea water. It's food grade and IV grade. I pay about $18.00 for 16oz in a local health food store but the product can be found online, although it costs more.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

i ought to have this down pat by now but i tend to get easily distracted by life- so, i have high quality powdered c & empty capsules (no filler, but easy enough to do by hand). half & half bicarb will get me sodium ascorbate? it was that simple when i've been asking wild oats & my health food store (without effect, may i add) to get me sodium ascorbate for years? doh!

and no, btw, before mt gets to it, ester c is not it.

susan


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## LadyButler (Sep 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommy To Baby Roni*
I'm too tired to get up and look in the vitamin cabinet right now, but isn't it packaged as "Ester-C" here, in the states?

Ester-C is Calcium Ascorbate.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Never use Ester C, or calcium ascorbate, except, or unless there is NOTHING ELSE around, and do NOT use it long term. If you MUST use it, you will require about double what you'd need with sodium ascorbate, and if you don't salt your food, then you must if you use Ester C. But remember, if there is any possibility that cancer is an issue... excess calcium in the body makes cancer cells go rampant.

That's not the only reason to not use it though...

Well, suseyblue, you can use ascorbic acid and bicarb, but I'm reluctant to do that, because it messes with the stomach acidity. IMO its just better to get sodium ascorbate. Again, if you've got nothing else, then AA + sodium bicarb is better than a kick in the rump.


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## Kundalini-Mama (Jul 15, 2002)

I special ordered mine from my local co-op. I paid almost $40 for 3lbs of it







It is the NOW brand. Oh, and it tastes disgusting, a lil' FYI.


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

AmyD I dont care much for the taste of SA so I stuff it in those gelatin capsules, I get the ones that hold about a gram.

For my one dd who cant swallow I mix C into lemonade, I can get a lot of C into her that way :LOL


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyD*
I special ordered mine from my local co-op. I paid almost $40 for 3lbs of it







It is the NOW brand. Oh, and it tastes disgusting, a lil' FYI.

Tastes disgusting? Nah.

Try chinese herbal remedies, then you will REALLY know what disgusting is.


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## Isaac'smama (Oct 20, 2004)

I bought mine from Source Naturals--sodium ascorbate crystals.


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## Castle (Aug 29, 2004)

You can get 8 oz bottles of the NOW brand from Vitaglo.com for $4.64. They also sell 3 pounds for $29.80.

I don't mind the taste, it's just salty really. My 2 year old DD still likes eating baby cereal (you know, the "first food" you mix with breastmilk, formula or water) so when I mix it up for her I add a pinch or 2 of the sodium ascorbate, and she loves it. She actually prefers it with the SA. I've been wondering though, is it okay to mix the SA with almost boiling water?


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
Tastes disgusting? Nah.

Try chinese herbal remedies, then you will REALLY know what disgusting is.









: :LOL

I mix mine in a bit of grape or orange juice. I also get ds' into him this way.


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## Mommy To Baby Roni (Mar 21, 2003)

Quote:

Never use Ester C, or calcium ascorbate, except, or unless there is NOTHING ELSE around, and do NOT use it long term.
Thank you! But would it be a good choice while I'm pg?


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## Kundalini-Mama (Jul 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
Tastes disgusting? Nah.

Try chinese herbal remedies, then you will REALLY know what disgusting is.









: Haven't tried them yet. I have no problem w/it, but my poor hubby







, and the 3 yr old isn't a big fan. Unfortunately/fortunately we are going on the maker's diet and we have to stay away from fruit and sugar, so he just takes it in some water. Will definately do the lemonade trick when we are back eating normally though.









Oh, and I will definately be buying my NOW 3 lbs from that online source, much cheaper than my co-op, thanks for the link!!

Amy


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

OK, here's a question - I take Emer'gen-C 1-2X/day (the whole family does) - it lists the Vit C content (1,000) this way: "as Seven Mineral Ascorbates". Sodium (60 mg) is listed separately.

Is this good/bad/otherwise? I love this stuff, it's relatively inexpensive, and it really seems to keep our immune systems in good shape.


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## Zuri's Papa (Dec 1, 2004)

Our MD/ND recommended emergen-c for our 16 month old daughter and my wife takes it too. The kid and adult version are the same price except you get 500mg for the kid and 1000mg for the adult. So you can save money by simply buying the adult version and splitting it in half!


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Zuri's Papa*
So you can save money by simply buying the adult version and splitting it in half!










Yeah, that's what I do for my younger kids.

But what I wanna know is, is this a proper way to get the right mix of Vit C & ascorbates? It's most cost-effective for us.


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## sebarnes (Feb 2, 2005)

Thanks for all of the good info! Castle, that's the cheapest I've been able to find it online, so I'll probably go with that - thanks for the link! So, should we be taking some of this daily, even if we're well, as a preventative measure? I'm knew to this whole supplement thing and trying to learn more. I take an mineral mix by Ionyx as well as an ounce of xango juice on the advice of my naturopath. What else would you recommend?


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommy To Baby Roni*
Thank you! But would it be a good choice while I'm pg?

no


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyD*







: Haven't tried them yet. I have no problem w/it, but my poor hubby







, and the 3 yr old isn't a big fan.

Suggest to them they could wash it down with creasote and bitumen if they would prefer the like.

They REALLY don't know what disgusting is


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## Kundalini-Mama (Jul 15, 2002)




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## Mommy To Baby Roni (Mar 21, 2003)

Thanks, MT.


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## Castle (Aug 29, 2004)

*Mommy To Baby Roni* asked:
Thank you! But would it be a good choice while I'm pg?

*Montezuma Tuatara* answered:
no
---------------

Just to clarify, you mean that Calcium Ascorbate is not a good choice during pregnancy, right? That even during pregnancy Sodium Ascorbate is the best choice?


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:



Quote:


Originally Posted by *Castle*

Quote:

_Mommy To Baby Roni_ asked:
Thank you! But would it be a good choice while I'm pg?

*Montezuma Tuatara* answered:

no


Just to clarify, you mean that Calcium Ascorbate is not a good choice during pregnancy, right? That even during pregnancy Sodium Ascorbate is the best choice?
Yes.


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## Threefold (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommymama*
Mine is Nutribiotic (Lakeport, CA 95453) Sodium Ascorbate Crystalline Powder (Buffered Vitamin C Pharmaceutical Grade pH 7.1). It is made by dissolving pharmaceutical grade ascorbic acid with sodium bicarbonate derived from sea water. It's food grade and IV grade. I pay about $18.00 for 16oz in a local health food store but the product can be found online, although it costs more.

This is the one we use. I buy mine at Whole Foods. I got the 8oz size for approx $10.


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## Castle (Aug 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
Yes.

Thanks!

And sorry for misspelling your username.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

No problem







Montezuma's revenge is what you get if you overdose, so it was an apt slip of the pen.


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## Rox5266 (Nov 26, 2004)

I use Maxi Baby-C, and am now concerned because it is calcium ascorbate.







But it contains sodium benzoate, does this ameliorate the calcium?


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

a-HEM....MT, I was counting on you to answer my question!


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Oh righty then.

Now, goes and finds questions...

I've used Emergen-C at times, and I like it because it has other things with it. But for me, its the most expensive option of them all. In terms of tablets, the cheapest I can get is the Canadian Natural factors which is a good mix, but for myself I do a mix of 1 gram citrus bioflavinoids and 5 grams sodium ascorbate.

If I were to take 5 packets of Emergen-C, then I would get all the other things out of proportion for me, given that I need about 5 grams per day. So I leave Emergen-C for something to take when I'm out, and just need a quick leg-up during the day.

Rox, I've not seen a formulation with sodium benzoate, but I know that sodium benzoate does provoke asthma in some people.. so you should research that.

I just feel its cheaper and simpler to do it the way I do it.

Any other way, you mess up everything else.

JMO


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Ahem . . . [dummy entering the room] . . . would one of you have time/energy to jot down a quick tutorial on why it is you take so much C? And why the formulation is so critical? Do you or your dcs have health issues you're working on, or this all in the name of prevention? We have some health issues and we take loads-o-supplements, but I've never thought too much about C . . .

MT, I've not come across you before, so I'm not sure what your background is -- you seem like you must be a naturopath or a supplement guru! Would you mind filling me in?

I *thought* I was pretty savvy when it comes to supplements, but I am suddenly feeling very dumm.









If this is too simple for this thread, redirect me and I'll search further. THX!


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

:


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathe*
Ahem . . . [dummy entering the room] . . . would one of you have time/energy to jot down a quick tutorial on why it is you take so much C? And why the formulation is so critical? Do you or your dcs have health issues you're working on, or this all in the name of prevention? We have some health issues and we take loads-o-supplements, but I've never thought too much about C . . .

I don't know how much is in the archives. I think much of what we discussed in the past is related to pertussis.

To find out why we discuss that, do an advanced search and put into the subject pertussis AND ascorbate and look at that.

Quote:

MT, I've not come across you before, so I'm not sure what your background is -- you seem like you must be a naturopath or a supplement guru! Would you mind filling me in?








... Me? no. Just a nutter.

The key to really good health isn't so much vitamins as minerals, but vitamin C is crucial to minerals so it comes higher on my list than the others.

My order of priority is Vitamin C + minerals, then the rest of the vitamins. Preferably in organic food, but because of the reality below, we have to use supplements at times:

Quote:

Daily Mail, March 5, 2001

FRUIT and vegetables are not as good for us as they were 50 years ago according to a scientific study. Modem farming methods mean that the amount of essential minerals In the food we eat has been reduced alarmingly. There is up to 75 per cent less calcium and 93 per cent less copper . In fruit and vegetables, the study says. Runner beans which used to contain a significant amount of sodium - vital for the working of the nerves and muscles - now have almost no traces of it at all.

The levels of other important minerals such as iron, phosphorous, potassium and magnesium have also plummeted. Nutritionist David Thomas said he was 'astonished' by his flndlngs. 'Minerals have been recognised as being very important to our physiology, but the general public has no idea that there has been this dramatic decline in the levels of such elements in our food,' he said. His research allowed that broccoli has 75 per cent less calcium, which is essential for building healthy body and teeth. Carrots have 75 per cent less magnesium, which protects against heart attacks, asthma and kidney stones.

Spinach, famous as a good source of iron, was found to have 60 per C less iron than it did 50 years ago. Mr Thomas said he believed the reduction in the mineral content in food was a result of modern farm methods which use massive amounts of fertiliser on the soil. The fertilisers encourage ph growth, but this Is at the expense of the minerals which are Important for good health. Mr Thomas said: 'We are made up of these substances. If they're deficient then the body cannot cope as well as It would otherwise.'

He based his conclusions on data from The Composition of Foods, a comprehensive study of the content of all major foods dating back to 1940. By comparing figures over a 50-year period he was able to plot certain trends. A similar analysis, comparing data from 1930 and 1980, was published in the British Food Journal in 1997. It compared 20 vegetables and found levels of calcium, iron and other minerals had declined significantly.

Professor Tim Lang, of the renowned Centre for Food Policy at Thames Valley University, said the results revealed an important trend which needed to be exposed. 'These are big percentages,' he said. 'The nature of production is altering what we are eating. Plant breeders have been trying to develop tomatoes and carrots and fruit that look nice, resist disease and can withstand being shipped halfway around the world.
'They have been less concerned about the minerals in the food. 'We are dying prematurely of coronary heart disease and cancer and we are being told to cut down on fat and eat more fruit and vegetables. But at the same time they are changing the content of what we are eating.' Mr Thomas runs a company called Trace Minerals UK, based in Sussex, which distributes a mineral supplement called ConcenTrace.

Professor Lang said that despite his commercial interest, Mr Thomas had carried out a legitimate piece of research.

Quote:

I *thought* I was pretty savvy when it comes to supplements, but I am suddenly feeling very dumm.









If this is too simple for this thread, redirect me and I'll search further. THX!
Okay, so you want a vitamin C 101.

Here's a tome for you. There may be URL duplication, but I'm too tired to figure it out.

It depends what you are looking at Vitamin C for.

Vitamin C is NOT just a vitamin, to be considered at 60mg a day to "prevent" scurvy. That is a load of bunk.

Vitamin C does many things. Here are just a few.

Collagen: It's the "foundation stone" for the development of every piece of collagen in your body, and think how many that is. In other words, every cell wall you possess.
Iron absorption. Without vitamin C, you might as well not eat iron.

Toxin Neutralisation: According to old medical literature works really well for diphtheria, whooping cough, Tetanus, spider bites snake bites and polio (Along with a couple other things) , though the action for polio may not have anything to do with the polio, but everything to do with toxic co-factors.

And a whole lot of other stuff... here is some basic starting points and other guff,... so that you can research it yourself.

This guy has some things wrong, but in general the gist is okay...

http://science.howstuffworks.com/vit....htm/printable

IMMUNE FUNCTION CHANGES IN DOWNHILL RUNNING SUBJECTS FOLLOWING ASCORBIC ACID SUPPLEMENTATION (PDF)

http://www.isei.de/Literature/abstr2001.pdf

A narrow view, and dictionary swallower:

http://www.nap.edu/books/0309069351/html/95.html

Books:

The Healing Factor, Vitamin C against Disease, by Irwin Stone, Perigree Books, NY, 1982, ISBN 0-399-50763-7. Nearly 50 pages are medical references.

Vitamin C, Nature's Miraculous Healing Missile by Dr Glen Dettman, Dr Archie Kalokerinos, Dr Ian Dettman. 1993, Pub: Frederick Todd, Melbourne.

Perhaps the most scientific and scholastic (and hugely expensive) trilogy I own is a 3 volume set called "Vitamin C" By C. Alan B Clemetson (who was a medical professor...) Pub 1989, CRC Press. ISBN numbers. Volume 1 0-8493-4841-2, Volume 2 0-8493-4842-0, Volume 3: 0-8493-4842-9.

For a lifetime of clinical application with results unobtainable with any other methods, then "Medical Pioneer of the 20th Century by Archie Kalokerinos is compulsory reading.Pub: 2000.Biological Therpies Publishing Pty Ltd, ISBN 0-646-40852-6

A doctor who does cancer research in Auckland Medical school, who cured his leukemia with Vitamin C and iscadore (because he didn't have insurance to have conventional treatment immediately) looked at the role of Vitamin C in the immune system, in particular, macrophages. He found that macrophages were vitamin C dependant, and literally ran out of gas, once the Vitamin C was no longer present. When presented with more, they started up again. He sent me a letter saying that based on his research, which was never published of course, he would have to upgrade the basic RDA of Vitamin C to 1,000 mgs a day - solely on the basis of macrophage activity, but that he did not know if any other part of the immune system was also Vitamin C dependant.

I suspect other parts are, which is why for me a basic dose of 5,000 mgs for me, fulfills my biochemical individuality. But only under normal circumstances. When I get sick, my needs climbs rapidly.

The next area we have to consider are other functions of Vitamin C which were not part of this study, since the laboratory only looked at one thing, which is like looking at one leaf on a huge tree and thinking that might represent the A - Z's of the issue.

I have so many brilliant studies on Vitamin C it is hard to know where to start. But let me just discuss three. In the Journal of International Academy of Prevention of Medicine, 1978, Volume 5, Pages 54-59, Drs Fukumi Morishige and Akira Murata, detailed a study in which they divided people who had to have blood transfusions into two groups. No patients received immunoglobin...This study went from 1967 - 1976. Over 9 years, one group who received blood received between 2,000 - 6,000 mgs of Vitamin C a day, after transfusions . The second group received 1 gram or less. The rate of Hepatitis B in the first group was 0.2% and in the second group was 7%, and the study was halted, because the Japanese Medical ethics people considered that it was essential that all patients were given high doses of vitamin C following transfusions.

The study concluded that Vitamin C given in large amounts has a significant prophylactic effect against post-transfusion hepatitis, especially type B.

Now, think of all the USA people who could have escaped Hepatitis B if the American medical people had known about that.

The second one is a study on the effect of ascorbic Acid in the treatment of Tetanus. This was bulished in the Bangladesh Medical Research Council Bulletin, June 1984, Volume X, No. 1. Authors K. Jahan et al. They did two concurrent studies. One using chicken which were divided into four groups of 15 birds each. Birds in group one got 5 nanograms of strychnine sulphate only, group two got 30 mgs Vitramin C 10 minutes before the same dose of strychnine. Group 3 got 10 nanograms of strychnine, and group four again, 30 mgs Vitamin C then 10 nanograms of strychnine.

the patients with tetanus were divided into three groups. On, aged 1 - 12 years, who received 1000 mg Vit C in addition to conventioal antitetanus therapy, which the control group received. The second group was 13 - 30 years, and they also got 1,000 mg of Vit C in addition to conventional treatment. Why on earth they used such a low dose for the older ones, goodness only knows, because a bigger body needs a bigger dose. But, never mind. the results were that the conventional group of 1 - 12 yr olds had a 74.2 percent mortality rate - the 12 - 30 year olds had a 67.8% mortality rate. In the Vitamin C treated group, the 1 - 12 yr group have 0% mortality, and the 13 - 30 yr group had a 37 % mortality.

The results of the chicken study. In group one, the wings of all birds stretched, Some walked on toes, others kept jumping and could not walk.

Group 2 - no symptoms.

Groups 3 Extensor paralysis of legs, opisthotonus, and severe convulsions. All but three died.

Group 4. Extensor paralysis in 3 chicks. No neurological symptoms in others. The affected birds recovered in about 30 minutes after the appearance of the symptoms.

I have discussed these two studies with "experts" here, who have read little or nothing on Vitamin C, and their response to the Japanese one was silence. The unfortunate and unguarded response to the Bangladesh was was laughter and the comment "What would they know, there..."

the third study is Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health 1997; 51: 479 - 485, page 479 - 485. called "Dietary Vitamin C and bone mineral density in post menopausal women in Washington State, USA. Suzanne G Leveille, et al.

Quote. "Conclusion: there was no evidence that vitamin C from the diet was associated with BMD, although long term use of vitamin C supplement was associated with a higher BMD in the early postmenopausal years and among never users of oestrogen."

So obviously, vitamin C has an influence here, as well, though they made no attempt to figure it out.

To try to bring a whole lot of thoughts together here, bearing in mind it has taken Clemetson 3 volumes to do that, the body has many uses for vitamin C. I know I would not be in one piece today without it.

One is detoxification. Vitamin C can be used to great effect in any toxin mediated diseases - according to the early medical literature, and clinical trials on humans. It can also be used to good effect on venoms of many kinds.

I will give you two examples, which happened on seperate occasions, to children in my care, both involving other people's boys. Both boys were highly allergic to bees. We were way out in the country, about 2 hours from the nearest acute medical facility. And the car of this child's mother had broken down. I never travel anywhere with children, without a first aid kit. Even today. and it always has sodium ascorbate (Vit C) powder in it. The first little boy, called Andre, was 4. He got stung, and his mother went hysterical, (even though I scraped away the sting with a knife blade straight away), because according to his medical alert bracelet, he now had 20 minutes to live. Someone fled for help to the nearest telephone, which was that long away. During that time, I pumped that child with Vitamin C, until he was more than full. I also used ledum tincture, not because I know it works, becuase I don't - but becuase it made me feel better. Anyway. The father arrived, having broken every speed limit in the world, and his front fender, expecting to find a corpse. What he found was a little boy who now had a dose of Montezumas revenge, and had been to the "loo" three times. A good sign, that I was way over his maximum dose. But when there is toxin there, I ignore the C-stix. I don't know how much the body is using, so I just pour it in, then back off slightly when the diarrhoea starts. So, four hours after the sting, he was at A & E, with his parents been given the third degree for ostensibly previously "lying", even though it was there in their records from the last occasion. Andre's parents continued the Vitamin C treatment using urinary spill-over to gauge his needs until the swelling had gone.

The second occasion was a boy of 11. He got stung about 5 years later in similar circumstances, except there was a car that worked, but was a little less co-operative than Andre. I could only get 10 1,000 Acerola flavoured tablets into him in the first hour, before he rebelled. He had a slightly longer "critical" time of just over an hour, according to his mother. They got to the hospital three hours after the sting, and were discharged without treatment, but two hours after that, the boy started having bronchospasm, so the mother rang me to ask "why it hadn't worked", to which I replied, becuase his body has used it up, and he wouldn't take any more. The mother tested his urine, and there was no spill-over. The child refused to take more, and landed up in hospital for conventional treatment.

So that's our only personal experience of Vitamin C with Bee stings in highly allergic children.

But there was an interesting other case I was involved with, which involved a hospital bun-fight. A little girl we knew, had contracted Kawasaki Disease. This is an interesting disease, which no-one "knows" how it starts. They "think" it might be dust-mites. They haven't identified the culprit either. I have my own theories on how and why it started, but won't go into that here. But again, I consulted Archie, who had treated Kawasaki disease with Vitamin C with good results. He faxed me over a swag of stuff. So I went to hospital with it all. The parents were desperate, because this little girl was going down-hill, and had been for nearly a week.

I arrived un-noticed, and the parents being reluctant to try Vitamin C without the paediatrician's permission, we made an appointment. They wanted me to go with them, being mouse-type people. Well, the first thing that happened was the paediatrician recognised me, and went into a tirade about how dare they darken his chambers with such a cretin as myself. I applied court tactics, and just started asking him questions. Which he couldn't answer. I asked him what he knew about Vitamin C treatment of Kawasaki Disease, and he knew nothing. The father dialled Archie's number on his mobile, by arrangement, and he refused to talk to him. I left the literature with him, which according to the nurse, was flung in the skip. He point blank refused to even consider the issue. His paradigm, authority and knowledge had been challenged, and he didn't want a bar of it..

I told the parents what to do, but they were too scared to start that day. The next day, she was worse, and skin was starting to peel, so they rang Archie to confirm everything and started the treatment without permission. Within 6 hours, the temperature had gone, and their biggest problem was one little girl trying to rip out lines. They were discharged two days later. The peeling only extended to the edge of the finger-tips.

The case was written up, hailing the virtues of the gamma globulin which had been used in the first 5 of the 8 day stay. Even though the parents had not given permission for the case to be published, unless the Vitamin C doses and times, which they had written into the hospital clinical records themselves, were included in the study. They were not. Of course.

Now, lets look at Vitamin C itself. For me, Vitamin C does not work very well, alone. I need to take other vitamins with it. I have to take Vitamin A. (By the way, vitamin C is very useful to help clear symptoms of vitamin A toxicity is someone has been stupid enough to overdose)I also need magnesium, and zinc. Vitamin F is made more effective when plenty of vitamin C is taken. Pantothenic Acid is more effective with Vitamin C. So is B15, para-aminobenzoic Acid, B6, B2, B1,Vitamin E, Calcium.

So we are talking about a very complicated biochemical network of action, which will vary from individual to individual.

The only time Vitamin C can and should be taken in isolation IMO is under conditions of acute illness, or where toxin from a sting or bite is an issue. Or, of course, scurvy.

Actually, scurvy would be a very instructive and interesting study for anyone, after all, death by scurvy is essentially the total breakdown of collagen throughout the whole body.

The issue of Vitamin C and other vitamins is not one that can be tested, or utilised in normal conditions, in laboratories in isolation (i.e. Vitamin c on its own). And it certainly cannot be evaluated for acurate action in a test-tube away from the immune system of the body.

For those interested in Vitamin in general, try to find an out of print book called "Mental and Elemental Nutrients" by Carl C. Pfeiffer, Ph.D., M.D. Printed 1975, ISBN 0-87983-114-6.

For all that this is 27 years old, this book is absolutely fascinating. You would like to think that the medical professions knowledge of Vitamins has improved since then, but IMO, the reductionist method of looking at one thing down a microscope is sending the word "knowledge" into disrepute.

For those who want to udnerstand more about the concept of different doses for different people - I don't know a more recent book, because this one was enough for me. It is called "Biochemical Individuality, the Basis for the Genetotrophic Concept" by Roger J. Williams. Who is a doctor. Pub 1979, ISBN 0-292-70022-9, John Wiley and Sons, USA. This was a man way before his time.

If you are lucky enough to track down all these books, read and understand at least the overall gist of them (Clemetson's are hard work!), then you will probably know more about the subject of Vitamin C, its functions, symbiotic relationships, various functions, and how it interacts in a complex web of multifunctioning in the body, than the researchers of the study mentioned.

For while Vitamin C is called a vitamin, IMO, it is not just a vitamin. It is a detoxification agent, anti-viral, antibacterial (different modus operandi to anti-viral function), a key player in many different functions, such as bone density, anti-stroke, anti-heart attack.

In an article on Influenza I posted here eons ago, there was a short extract on some studies which did show benefit in clinical use which read:

"Might malnutrition be a factor? I looked in vain to find anything in any of the clippings about the use of non- patented medicine in this year's publicity. Apart from one reference to eating good food I could find nothing. Dr Lance Jennings goes on about how serious influenza is, but nowhere do I see any mention of his study (mentioned in North and South, June 1996) "conducted at the University of Wisconsin in 1988 which demonstrated that a daily dose of 2000 mg of vitamin C reduces the severity of a cold by one half, and alleviates influenza symptoms."

Nor is it mentioned that a recent review (Paed Infect Dis J, 1997;16: 836-7) of three vitamin C studies found huge decreases (³80%) in pneumonia in people who took vitamin C as opposed to those who didn't, and mentioned Sabin's findings that no cases of pneumonia were found in monkeys with adequate vitamin C.

This would seem very important, since the focus of the medical people's loving-kindness seems to have been the elderly. So why doesn't Lance Jennings tell them that zinc is vital for colds (and the flu)? The last time he mentioned that was in the Sunday Star Times, 7/7/96. Since vitamin C is his interest, why doesn't he tell the group most at risk from the flu that they could not only lessen the severity of, if not prevent, both flu and pneumonia by taking supplements, but that vitamin C would increase their iron absorption (Nutrition Reviews Vol. 45, No 7 July 1987) and greatly enhance the Th1 cellular immunity which is all important in fighting the flu (Paed Inf Dis J, 1999;18: 283-290). Vitamin C and E supplementation also reduces the risk of cataracts by at least 50% (Canadian study, mentioned in Time, 6/4/92). Vitamin C reduces coronary mortality by 50% in comparison with those who don't take it (BMJ Volume 314, 1 March 1997), vitamin E significantly improves cell mediated immune responses in the elderly (JAMA, May 7, 1997, Vol. 277, No 17:1380-1386), a high level of vitamin C means you have a far lower chance of having a stroke (BMJ, Volume 310, pg. 1563-6), men with a history of cardiac disease who were given beta carotene supplements of 50 mg every other day suffered half as many heart attacks, strokes and deaths as those popping placebo pills (Harvard study 22,000 male physicians Time, 6/4/92), and that supplementation with vitamin E reduces the pathogenesis of arthritis, diabetes and systemic lupus erythematosus (Am J Clin Nutr, 1993; 57: 650-656, Metab Clin Exp 1990;39:1278-1284)&#8230;."

And this is just scratching the surface of conditions which I , Clemetson and others have described which all benefit from Vitamin C.

Vitamin C can't be patented, and is of no financial value to pharmaceutical companies. And I'm sorry to say, that is what drives the majority of conventional doctors, who do not know where to look to find the information which could possible cause them to rethink their attitudes, for the sake of their patients.

These sites might help you understand why (Don't know if all the URLs will work though:

http://www.orthomed.com/index.htm

http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorbate/index.htm

http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorba...1.htm#appendix

http://www.orthomed.com/klenner.htm

http://doctoryourself.com/cathcart_thirdface.html

http://www.internetwks.com/pauling/hoffer.html

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/mega_1_1.html#FISHES

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/mega_1_1.html#FRED

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/mega_1_1.html#NULL

http://www.autism.com/ari/editorials/vitaminc.html

and just to get that old hoary about kidney stones out the way:

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/issues/.../ioi80289.html

New insights into the physiology and pharmacology of vitamin C

http://www.cma.ca/cmaj/vol-164/issue-3/0353.htm

http://nurses.medscape.com/reuters/p...07clin009.html

http://www.*********/p/vitc.html

Dr Cathcart http://www.mall-net.com/cathcart/

Vit C Foundation http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/

Klenner paper http://www.orthomed.com/klenner.htm

Null http://www.thehealingcenter.com/

Dr Pittman http://www.he.net/~center/

OrthoMed http://www.orthomed.org/

Ascorbate Web http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorbate/

Linus Pauling site http://www.internetwks.com/pauling/

C for Yourself http://www.CforYourself.com/


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

I also have to take bioflavinoids with it. Brainfag...


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## Zuri's Papa (Dec 1, 2004)

Great stuff, MT. Bookmarked!


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## LandonsMom (Jul 22, 2005)

anyone take a multi? liquid or pill? what brand? why?

my dad always made us take vit C, so i ussualy just take vit C, am switching to sodium ascorbate, ordering now...but a multi too? yes or no?


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## Livi's Mama (Apr 25, 2003)

wow







:


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LandonsMom*
anyone take a multi? liquid or pill? what brand? why?

my dad always made us take vit C, so i ussualy just take vit C, am switching to sodium ascorbate, ordering now...but a multi too? yes or no?

My approach has been to take what I know I'm lowest in which is shown by my immune system, but the primary approach has to be via food.

That's why its important to have comprehensive books on nutrition. I have several, but the one which I lend out most often is an Australian one called "The Natural Health Cookbook" by Dorothy Hall and Carol Odell.

The other book which is an old one, which I find very useful to give people a better historical perspective is "Nutrition against Disease" by Dr Roger J Williams. He also wrote "Biochemical Individuality" which is a very interesting book and explains a lot that the others don't.., and "Physician's Handbook of Nutritional Science" which is interesting, but not compulsory reading









In terms of other texts, again, I prefer older ones. My favourites would be "Mental and Elemental nutrients" by Carl C Pfieffer MD, and also his "Total Nutrition", and "The Healing Nutrients within."

Yes, I'm old fashioned. I don't like the way that so many of the books now, are dumbed down, as if it would be impossible for the ordinary reader to understand well thought out logical reasoning.


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
Yes, I'm old fashioned. I don't like the way that so many of the books now, are dumbed down, as if it would be impossible for the ordinary reader to understand well thought out logical reasoning.

Hey, now! Some of us (OK, *me*







) aren't quite the intellect you are, m'dear ... I, for one, kinda need a dumbed-down version of this stuff.

"Immunity for Dummies" :LOL


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

I recently purchased some vitamin c wafers for my DD. They are 500mg and it says that it is (as sodium ascorbate & ascorbic acid) 830% DV. Does this sound like it would be ok for DD? Or should I swithc to straight sodium ascorbate?

BTW, MT, thanks for the information about books. I've been wondering about books on nutrition as I'd like to start reading up on it.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skellbelle*
Hey, now! Some of us (OK, *me*







) aren't quite the intellect you are, m'dear ... I, for one, kinda need a dumbed-down version of this stuff.

"Immunity for Dummies" :LOL

Skelle, as someone of only average intellect who languished at school in lower and mid stream classes I can tell you this. There is no such thing as "immunity for dummies". You sit down, you start reading, and you look up the words you don't understand. And strangely enough it makes sense. If it really gets you down, you skim over the russian words, snorkel the rest and you glean enough to get a bigger picture. Then some of the russian words, when looked up, make better sense.

All the "immunity for dummies" talks do, is ensure that the listeners never get a real handle on anything, and just do as someone else says instead.

You just THINK you need something simplified. I know full well, that you would cope just fine, because if I can, you can. And you can say. "but this and but that"... but the fact is that yes, I've been doing this for 23+ years.

Everyone has to start somewhere. You start at the beginning and keep on working. No shortcuts. Just the full immunological monty.


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## paynetjl (Sep 15, 2004)

Did I just purchase the wrong stuff??????????

It is Solaray Vit C 1000 mg with bioflavonoid concentrate plus rose hips and acerola. The back says Ascorbate Acid.
TIA


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Another stupid question.... Everything I'm reading is all about ascorbic acid. I know that the reason for using sodium ascorbate is to avoid gastric upset that ascorbic acid could cause, but do they work exactly the same way in the body?


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

I've no idea paynetjl, becuase I live on another planet to Texas.


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## paynetjl (Sep 15, 2004)

um, okay?


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## Dolphin (Apr 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paynetjl*
Did I just purchase the wrong stuff??????????

It is Solaray Vit C 1000 mg with bioflavonoid concentrate plus rose hips and acerola. The back says Ascorbate Acid.
TIA

This is what I take, and it's been extremely effective! I know I'm "supposed" to be using SA, but this works for me, is cheap, and doesn't require mixing in anything, and it doesn't give me any digestive problems. And I take about 15 a day when folks around me are sick, and about 7 a day just for maintenance. Just my .02.


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## paynetjl (Sep 15, 2004)

Thanks So much!!


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

fwiw, (and it's a no-brainer if you think about it) smilemomma (& and other savvy dentists) have fits about chewable c- it eats the enamel right off your children's teeth.

in the meantime (till i figure out a way to get sodium ascorbate into children that have more-or-less weaned themselves out of any appreciable amount of c from my milk) i get a liquid- they have good ones at the health food stores, but my supermkt pharmacist orders me some for convenience sometimes (whole foods has s. ascorbate? when i've been nagging wild oats for years? hmmmn, they are opening our state's first... next to the wild oats, of course, god forbid they put one closer to the 'burbs, because DRIVING an hour is so ecologically friendly- ok, rant over. anyway, at least hopefully soon i'll be able to pop in & get some. like, when i'm in TOWN. there, i'm done, really )

susan


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

OKay MT: Who ARE you? I'm not taking the "nutter" explanation!

That was quite an amazing post . . .


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Hi MT,

If I were able to get my hands on a copy of the Natural Health Cookbook would you recommend that I go for it? I found it on a used book site and it says it will only be $3.50 to ship from Australia. I kind of think they'll come back with additional charges but I was wondering what you think?


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## Threefold (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *suseyblue*
fwiw, (and it's a no-brainer if you think about it) smilemomma (& and other savvy dentists) have fits about chewable c- it eats the enamel right off your children's teeth.

susan









:

and







: I give my ds the sodium ascorbate/ascorbic acid + bioflavinoids from Trader Joes everyday! Does the liquid have bioflavinoids? How else can I get those? And which liquid do you buy?
TIA


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
I've no idea paynetjl, becuase I live on another planet to Texas.

Hey now...I hear there's some REALLY cool, intelligent people that live in Texas.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

no, unfortunately the one i have right now doesn't have bioflavinoids (the one i got for more $ from wild oats MAY have, but i don't think so.) it might be a whole lot more pita, but could you grind them up with a pestle & add them to a drink? it's the chewing that is the issue.

(my kids eat A LOT of raw oranges/tangerines with much of the white left on, so i hope that is helping on the bioflavinoid front. it is tricky till they get where they can swallow capsules, isn't it?)

susan


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## Threefold (Nov 27, 2001)

Thanks Suseyblue. My dd will take sodium ascorbate mixed with blueberry juice from a dropper, of course she is the one still nursing, so she doesn't so much need it, and my ds will sometimes. Great idea about grinding the chewables up







I think I'll try it, now for a good source for good mortar and pestle







.
Ditto on the oranges/tangerines, but my ds just got picky about the white parts *sigh* .


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## Guest* (Aug 5, 2004)

Sorry to be getting in on this so late, but...

Why not take Ester-C? I just spent $30 on a big bottle of it!! Can I at least finish this bottle, or is it so bad I should stop now? I purchased it because I thought it was "gentler" than sodium ascorbate and ascorbic acid.

P.S. I salt my food.

P.P.S. Going to read MT's long post. If the answer is in there, then sorry to ask...


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## LandonsMom (Jul 22, 2005)

thanks for the reading material, MT


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

You can finish the bottle jlpolzin. It just means you will need to take more than you would if you used sodium ascorbate. The real danger in Ester C, as I see it, is what happens when you take it long term.

I know, because I was stupid enough to do that years ago, and nearly paid the price. Fortunately, the mallet descended on my head, and I got it sorted out quick enough









chlobo, answered via PM.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathe*
OKay MT: Who ARE you? I'm not taking the "nutter" explanation!

That was quite an amazing post . . .

I'm an old grey nag, who lives underneath the world, and hangs on just, by virtue of suction capped feet. Hence the rushes of blood to the head.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
Hey now...I hear there's some REALLY cool, intelligent people that live in Texas.

















Yeah, well I know. I didn't mean it that way







I meant that I've no way of knowing what you people who stand upright on the planet can buy, since we who hang upside down, have a different set of commercial options.


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jlpolzin*

Why not take Ester-C? I just spent $30 on a big bottle of it!! Can I at least finish this bottle, or is it so bad I should stop now? I purchased it because I thought it was "gentler" than sodium ascorbate and ascorbic acid.



Me too! Oh my goodness, I wish I had read this thread. Thanks Montezuma for all the info. I'll finish my bottle then get some sodium ascorbate!


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
I'm an old grey nag, who lives underneath the world, and hangs on just, by virtue of suction capped feet. Hence the rushes of blood to the head.

She lies. She takes a stance, plants her feet firmly, and won't budge.

And she's no "old grey" anything.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skellbelle*
She lies. She takes a stance, plants her feet firmly, and won't budge.

Ah, the bull-dog stance, as dh calls it...

Haven't you seen my sucker feet?









Quote:

And she's no "old grey" anything.
Then why is my hair all peppered with white? Black and white = grey.


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Suseyblue,

What brand did you find at whole foods? I was there yesterday and only found liquid C in the ascorbic acid form. Maybe if I know which brand to look for I'll have more luck.

For the moment I'll grind up those large chewable wafers and try to find some kind of food that DD will eat to put them in. That is the real challenge.


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## sahli29 (Jan 23, 2004)

//


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo*
Suseyblue,

What brand did you find at whole foods? I was there yesterday and only found liquid C in the ascorbic acid form. Maybe if I know which brand to look for I'll have more luck.

For the moment I'll grind up those large chewable wafers and try to find some kind of food that DD will eat to put them in. That is the real challenge.


oh yeah, the liquid c's are only ascorbic acid. i thought i was clearer about not being able to find sodium ascorbate here for love or money. (i hate buying stuff online, although if i can find a paypal taking one i may have to go there.) right now if the choice was chewable or liquid whatever, i'd have to go with liquid- my kids have perfect teeth, mine suck, & i want to keep theirs perfect. bad teeth are expensive, painful, and lead to health problems in themselves.

now when someone finds a nice liquid sodium ascorbate, won't we all burn a path to their door!

susan

susan


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## Sherra (Jun 27, 2005)

I knew I should have read here first. I have been gone for awhile visiting with my parents and now that they left, I went to the health store to get some of this stuff. I came out with calcium ascorbate. Grrr..I went in saying sodium but the person there said something was wrong with that type of vit c.

Oh well. Will use it up I guess then get the right stuff. Will do some reading so I know my butt from the ground ya know.


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Sasssyblue,

Thanks for the info. FWIW, I am taking my DDs chewables (SA) & grinding them up and adding them to her milk. Sort of like a liquid. LOL. Just until I finish the bottle. Then I'll buy the powder.


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## LandonsMom (Jul 22, 2005)

Sherra, You have a new signature!! I LOve the siggys, they tell you so much about another person!!

(if its not new, forgive me, i just noticed it!!)


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## Sherra (Jun 27, 2005)

haha yah this is a new sig. I was helping my mom with her sig as she just got an account on here. I'm thinking of taking one of the dogs off and just keeping one dog. Too much animation kinda making me dizzy lol!


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Just thought this needed a


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Hullo -- reviving this thread now that we're in the midst of cold and flu season (at least on this side of the world!).

I just skimmed the whole thread and can't find a recommended dosage for little peeps. I have a 32 lb 4 yo and a 24 lb 15 mos old (so close in weight, but not sure if the ages are important). How much S.A. should they be getting? (and I don't mean according to the FDA -- I mean for REAL health)

and don't you think Vit C is a great natural antihistimine? Ped here is rx'ing daily Claritin for ds1's likely dust mite allergies, which then lead to frequent (okay, let's say CONSTANT) colds and viruses.

Am hoping MT is still around and reading . . .


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

Quote:

(my kids eat A LOT of raw oranges/tangerines with much of the white left on, so i hope that is helping on the bioflavinoid front. it is tricky till they get where they can swallow capsules, isn't it?)

According to some teacher my mom had in a master gardening class last year the part of the orange that has the greatest amount of C is the peel. The orange part we eat has a very low % of C.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathe*
Hullo -- reviving this thread now that we're in the midst of cold and flu season (at least on this side of the world!).

I just skimmed the whole thread and can't find a recommended dosage for little peeps. I have a 32 lb 4 yo and a 24 lb 15 mos old (so close in weight, but not sure if the ages are important). How much S.A. should they be getting?

It depends on the child. I start at 250 mg per kg of body weight.

1 kg = 2.2 pounds. so your 32 lb one, is 14.5 kgs, x 250 mgs = 3,636 mgs over waking hours.

24 lbs divided by 2.2= 9.9 x 250 = 2,475 mgs over waking hours. Obviously I don't worry about exact numbers. 1,000 mgs = 1/4 level tsp. so I eyeball it from there.

If that doesn't bring results, I up the dose.

Our youngest needs almost double the dose the oldest needs.

Quote:

and don't you think Vit C is a great natural antihistimine? Ped here is rx'ing daily Claritin for ds1's likely dust mite allergies, which then lead to frequent (okay, let's say CONSTANT) colds and viruses.

Am hoping MT is still around and reading . . .
For my husband it certainly is. He was able to drop all antihistamine medication once he got onto a decent dose of vitamin c.


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
It depends on the child. I start at 250 mg per kg of body weight.

1 kg = 2.2 pounds. so your 32 lb one, is 14.5 kgs, x 250 mgs = 3,636 mgs over waking hours.

24 lbs divided by 2.2= 9.9 x 250 = 2,475 mgs over waking hours. Obviously I don't worry about exact numbers. 1,000 mgs = 1/4 level tsp. so I eyeball it from there.


Wow! That's A LOT! My own bowel tolerance, when I'm not ill, is only at 3,000 mg/day. Do you think maybe I should do bowel testing with my babes? Hmm. Am trying to think if I know how to do that . . .

Thanks, MT. Knew you could help!


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## Jewish Mom (May 23, 2005)

WHOAAA... thanks for the list, but I most say that I do feel a bit overwhelmed.. this definitely needs some studyind on my end! is there a way to learn how much to give of each vit and mineral... age? weight? during healthy times.. health + winter (or when surroundings might likely have lots of germs etc floating around..) and of course when not well? forgive me if this was all mentioned already, please... I haven't had a chance to study the post yet.. and THANKS AGAIN!!


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## Jewish Mom (May 23, 2005)

sorry for the redundant typing.. i started typing b4 the Q was asked and then so promptly answered.. by the time i posted.. my Q was already answered.. more Q's later after babe is in bed, then i'll type w/2 hands


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathe*
Wow! That's A LOT! My own bowel tolerance, when I'm not ill, is only at 3,000 mg/day. Do you think maybe I should do bowel testing with my babes? Hmm. Am trying to think if I know how to do that . . .

Thanks, MT. Knew you could help!









Oh... were you talking about "normal"? I thought you meant when she was sick. That is the base-level for if your child is sick....

It depends on the person Breathe. It's not a lot when you are really ill. The body chews up vitamin C so fast in infectiou, its incredible.

On a good normal day, when I don't go out, 7 grams will take me to bowel tolerance. But I'm a workaholic. On a bad day, if I go to the city and have to put up with fumes etc, I will need over 40 grams.

But when I'm sick, that can go through the roof.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Oh, forgot to answer, Breathe. AGain, that depends on the child. For normal dosage, I work a baseline of 50 mgs per kg of body weight, and then work up from there. It's experimentation really. So your 32 lbs child would be around 750 mgs per day... but again, it depends on the child. Pogo sticks appear to need more.....


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## Jewish Mom (May 23, 2005)

so if I got it correctly, for healthy child 50mg/kg and for healthy adult 100mg/kg??

how much can be taken at once? how long must we wait between each dose?

how to know if we're getting enuf vit. and minerals? where do we find these.. how best to do this pracitcallly?

in an earlier post MT wrote the following:

<<<<<Now, lets look at Vitamin C itself. For me, Vitamin C does not work very well, alone. I need to take other vitamins with it. I have to take Vitamin A. (By the way, vitamin C is very useful to help clear symptoms of vitamin A toxicity is someone has been stupid enough to overdose)I also need magnesium, and zinc. Vitamin F is made more effective when plenty of vitamin C is taken. Pantothenic Acid is more effective with Vitamin C. So is B15, para-aminobenzoic Acid, B6, B2, B1,Vitamin E, Calcium.>>>>>

I have to admit I only followed about half... vit F??? some other phrases too... can we get a '101' for this paragraph

on another note: I have been giving the C to my kids in hot water w/ honey... is it terrible to do this in plastic cup??

Thanks MT and all educated others for your endless patience in explaining something we should all learn in highschool!!


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jewish Mom*
so if I got it correctly, for healthy child 50mg/kg and for healthy adult 100mg/kg??

About that, but again, it depends on the immune system

Quote:

how much can be taken at once? how long must we wait between each dose?
I guess. And I'm the world's worst pill taker, so they get taken when I walk past and happen to remember... and if I don't, then I take a bolus dose at night....

Quote:

how to know if we're getting enuf vit. and minerals?
Vitamin C, I know by how I feel... minerals is a bit harder, but because the index symptom for me with magnesium deficiency was the "interjection" of ectopic heart beats and irregular beats with flutters, and they have now gone,... that's how I know I've got enough magnesium. And it requires 1,400 mgs for me, to keep the heart stable.

Quote:

where do we find these.. how best to do this pracitcallly?
I don't know. I don't live in the USA. Ideally, if commercial vegetable and fruit growers did their "job" properly we shouldn't need to do this at all









The other way is to grow some of your own, majoring on good organic compost (by that I mean, not putting sprayed stuff in your compost heap...) and using rock dust which puts back a lot of the minerals. Just make sure the soil isn't too acid, or the minerals won't be absorbed.

That's another thing. If you body is acid, its harder to absorb minerals... and that is also where magnesium comes in.... or dolomite... if you have enough of that, your body won't be so acid, and you will absorb minerals better...

Quote:

in an earlier post MT wrote the following:

<<<<<Now, lets look at Vitamin C itself. For me, Vitamin C does not work very well, alone. I need to take other vitamins with it. I have to take Vitamin A. (By the way, vitamin C is very useful to help clear symptoms of vitamin A toxicity is someone has been stupid enough to overdose)I also need magnesium, and zinc. Vitamin F is made more effective when plenty of vitamin C is taken. Pantothenic Acid is more effective with Vitamin C. So is B15, para-aminobenzoic Acid, B6, B2, B1,Vitamin E, Calcium.>>>>>
Vitamin F - Essential Fatty acids. http://www.anyvitamins.com/vitamin-f...acids-info.htm

Quote:

some other phrases too... can we get a '101' for this paragraph
I think... it would be best if those who want a 101 looked at buying a book showing vitamin and mineral interactions, or did a google search on it which will save me writing a book














but seriously, its something everyone should bone up on, because infectious diseases are very much affected by minerals and vitamins, and if your child is constantly sick, its an issue any parent needs to get to grips with.

Quote:

on another note: I have been giving the C to my kids in hot water w/ honey... is it terrible to do this in plastic cup??
Well, I would get it into them any way possible. I'd rather you used a plastic cup than kiddo decided to bite the side out of glass.

Quote:

in explaining something we should all learn in highschool!!
Yeah, well they wouldn't do something as sensible as that now would they? They after all support maximum business and income expansion for sectors most useful to Wall Street. If they educated you there, then the pharmaceuticals and doctors would have to earn a real living wouldn't they? And just think what would happen to people's share portfolios?


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## Jewish Mom (May 23, 2005)

i hope i'm not 'going to get it' for asking again... before doing my own research..







thank G-d my kids are usually healthy... only one ended up w/ mumps... (should I have tried harder to spread it around??... usually only one or two colds a winter (hope I didn't ttf!!)

can we do an abridged definition session.. fatty acids, vit f , i understand this is found in fish oil, flax seedm oil? can you give examples of the b's (15, 6, 1, 2) ..and those acids (panto... and para.. ) i'm really stuck on those.. are there other more simple terms for these..? one more before i go, how do we know if our bodies are 'acidy'?? I WILL READ UP... so if you're fed up w/ me... i totally understand if your patience is spent!


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Here you go....

http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/foodsourforv.html


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## Jewish Mom (May 23, 2005)

never enough thanks!!


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)




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## MyLittleWonders (Feb 16, 2004)

I was just going to bump this - I've been reading it this morning and it's full of great information!

Okay, one question and sorry if it was already addressed somewhere and I missed it inbetween reading and tending my boys.

What is "ascorbate acid" if the label doesn't specify? Personally I take usually 2000mg of sodium ascorbate with rose hips each night (pill form) but also have some vit c powder that I put in smoothies for the boys and I (I have found I can tolerate 4000mg a day at least), but the label only says "ascorbate acid". I'm calling around town today to see if anyone carries sodium ascorbate, and if not, I'm breaking down and ordering it online.

Thanks! This forum rocks! (And MT, you never fail to amaze me with the amount of information you know and have taught yourself - I hope to have that much information in my head eventually.)


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## mavery (Jun 3, 2005)

Just another thanks for this info. I'm being forced to shift into high "clean up my diet" gear right now, so this is very helpful.


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Any suggestions on how to get the vit c into a 2 year old? She doesn't eat a lot of soft foods I can mix it with.


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## Mountain Chick (Sep 8, 2004)

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Momtezuma Tuatara for all the awesome info. It's exactly what I needed to know right now!









A million thank yous...my thank yous, thank you.


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## Kundalini-Mama (Jul 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo*
Any suggestions on how to get the vit c into a 2 year old? She doesn't eat a lot of soft foods I can mix it with.


In Oj or lemonade.


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

:


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyLittleWonders*
What is "ascorbate acid" if the label doesn't specify? Personally I take usually 2000mg of sodium ascorbate with rose hips each night (pill form) but also have some vit c powder that I put in smoothies for the boys and I (I have found I can tolerate 4000mg a day at least), but the label only says "ascorbate acid". I'm calling around town today to see if anyone carries sodium ascorbate, and if not, I'm breaking down and ordering it online.

I've never seen one with ascorbate acid. Here its always ascorbic acid.

You can make it sodium ascorbate by mixing equal quantities with sodium bicarbonate. I just think that mix tastes gross.

Quote:

Thanks! This forum rocks! (And MT, you never fail to amaze me with the amount of information you know and have taught yourself - I hope to have that much information in my head eventually.)
Well, when you get old, grey and saggy like me, you will know much more than I do now, becuase I only got the internet six years (minus four months) ago. You young things should be able to learn and apply at the speed of greased lightening, instead of having to look at various keyboard thingies and think "Now, what does that one do?"


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo*
Any suggestions on how to get the vit c into a 2 year old? She doesn't eat a lot of soft foods I can mix it with.

Some little tough nuts won't take sodium ascorbate any other way than dry, straight off a spoon







:


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo*
Any suggestions on how to get the vit c into a 2 year old? She doesn't eat a lot of soft foods I can mix it with.

My kids love it in Tang or Lemonaide. Its the only thing we use Tang for.


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momto l&a*
My kids love it in Tang or Lemonaide. Its the only thing we use Tang for.

Edited to add that now my 3.5 yo and 6yo can swallow so I just stuff capsules for them. The capsuels hold about 1 gram


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## Kundalini-Mama (Jul 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momto l&a*
Edited to add that now my 3.5 yo and 6yo can swallow so I just stuff capsules for them. The capsuels hold about 1 gram











How did you teach your lil' one to swallow?? I would love for my 4 yr old to learn, and then he wouldn't have to take his probiotics in powder form uke

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MT*
Some little tough nuts won't take sodium ascorbate any other way than dry, straight off a spoon

Actually, that is how my 14m old takes his. I lick a finger, stick it in the powder and then put it in the inside of his cheek, _trying_to bypass the tongue (which is hard when he is trying to lick my finger). I always have some bottled water available and as soon as I get it in him (if I hold him upside down his mouth opens automatically), he gets a swig of water.


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## guestmama9911 (May 24, 2005)

This is so useful. I've looked at the general health and wellness threads and it seems that most mamas there don't know as much as the nutrition goddesses that prowl around this forum.


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## MyLittleWonders (Feb 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
I've never seen one with ascorbate acid. Here its always ascorbic acid.

You are right - my fingers mistyped.









ETA: So the benefit of taking sodium ascorbate or mixing baking soda with ascorbic acid is to protect the stomach? Do I have that right? I mix it typically in smoothies (except for the pill form I take ... I'm not hip on swigging down a couple teaspoons of sodium bicarb with those), so I'm thinking it won't make much of a difference taste wise. But other than the stomach, why does it need to be done?


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## Nickarolaberry (Dec 24, 2001)

Okay, now I gotta admit, I'm overwhelmed by trying to keep track of what all I and my kids need to be taking, in what form, how much of it, and where to get it.

I am ordering the Sodium Ascorbate powder from NOW and I can add that to my kids' and my juice. 50 mgs. per kilogram bodyweight in a child, and 100 mgs. per kilogram bodyweight in an adult, right?

Now, I need a multi. I need one that's kosher or vegan.

I think my kids probably need a multi, at least while I'm upgrading their diet. They're sort of resistant to change.







The one they take now is the one the pedi prescribed and it has fluoride in it, which I've recently been given to understand is NOT a good idea. Bear with me here, I'm just starting with all this.

I take Acidophilus. This is a probiotic, right? I take 3 a day or so, in capsule form. Should I be giving this to my kids? What about to my nursing baby? Noone here is or has been on antibiotics recently.

Something else I"m missing? Other than making our diets better







:. We're working on it...


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyLittleWonders*
You are right - my fingers mistyped.









ETA: So the benefit of taking sodium ascorbate or mixing baking soda with ascorbic acid is to protect the stomach? Do I have that right? I mix it typically in smoothies (except for the pill form I take ... I'm not hip on swigging down a couple teaspoons of sodium bicarb with those), so I'm thinking it won't make much of a difference taste wise. But other than the stomach, why does it need to be done?

Youre half way there. Yes, its to reduce the acidity, but it also is to provide the sodium ion.

Since I hope this will go in the archives, and thugh I've put this here before I'll put it again, since it does bear repeating...

Quote:

MT - I am in shock. Everyone in the health food store tells me that ester C is the best vit C because your body absorbes it slower so your body will take more vitamin c etc, etc....
That is incorrect. The physiology of ester c is that for you to get to bowel tolerance you will have to take twice as much, and the mechanics of that is that the calcium is sheared off of the ascorbate, but for the ascorbate to be absorbed the body utilises localised sodium from any source nearby, to split the ascorbate into two molecules, one which the body uses, and the other which is excreted. BUT, before the ascorbate is utilised, the body uses some of it to chelate out the calcium, which when free in the body is dangerous to the body.

Far from being absorbed slower, the reason you need MORE Ester C to get to bowel tolerance is that the body has to divert some ascorbate to get the calcium out, so less is able to be used by the body.

Furthermore, by dragging out sodium of the body to do the job it needs to do, if a person isn't eating salt hand over fist, you can become sodium deficient, which totally bombs the immune system. I know, because because of a mistake I made, I took Ester-C in high doses for 9 months, and my whole immune system crashed. I ended up having to salt my food for about three weeks. Urgh...

Quote:

I am glad that you mention about it. I have to really look into it becasue I am totally wrong
So what is the best vitamin C to take?
Sodium Ascorbate...

Quote:

I do like to take a lot of vit c









You said:
Never use Ester C, or calcium ascorbate, except, or unless there is NOTHING ELSE around, and do NOT use it long term. If you MUST use it, you will require about double what you'd need with sodium ascorbate, and if you don't salt your food, then you must if you use Ester C. But remember, if there is any possibility that cancer is an issue... excess calcium in the body makes cancer cells go rampant.
That's not the only reason to not use it though...

you can use ascorbic acid and bicarb, but I'm reluctant to do that, because it can mess with the stomach acidity. IMO its just better to get sodium ascorbate. Again, if you've got nothing else, then AA + sodium bicarb is better than a kick in the rump.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *My3Kids'Mama*
Now, I need a multi. I need one that's kosher or vegan.

I think my kids probably need a multi, at least while I'm upgrading their diet. They're sort of resistant to change.







The one they take now is the one the pedi prescribed and it has fluoride in it, which I've recently been given to understand is NOT a good idea. Bear with me here, I'm just starting with all this.

I think I'll start a 101 nutrition/immunology thread, okay?


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## pumpkinsmama (Aug 20, 2005)

Wow! You mama's are veritible founts of info. It took me a good twenty minutes to read this thread.


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## MyLittleWonders (Feb 16, 2004)

MT - I'm going to order some SA online (because no one in this state seems to carry it







: ). If it doesn't have bioflavonoids in it, do I then also need to get those? (From what I've been reading, they are important for the whole thing to work.)


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

I havent found a place to buy just bioflavonoids in the US.

My 3 kids, you may want to look at Rainbow light vitamins. Not sure if they are kosher though or not. I use their kids and prenatals


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

AmyD,

I have no clue how she learned. I gave her an empty gelatin capsule to chew on and she told me "I swallowed it, I swallowed it." So I gave her a capsule full of C and she swallowed that.

My oldest was 5 when she finally figured out how to swallow. For her it was those pearls of probiotics. They are really small and easy to swallow.

The capsules I stuff with c are big, well huge for a 3.5 yo


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Usually places that sell SA online will have bioflavinoids in powder form, and yes, I prefer to put bioflavinoids with my SA, because they are co-factors.

If people want a tablet form more convenient for travelling... _a 1 kg bag of white powder might set off some hysterics don't you think?_ then I use a brand called Natural Factors (Canada) 100% natural fruit chews C 500 mgs one....


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## Mountain Chick (Sep 8, 2004)

momto l&a said:

Quote:

I havent found a place to buy just bioflavonoids in the US.
My local health food store has just Bioflavonoids for sale. I didn't buy them, so at the moment I can't remember the name brand, but I will check later this week and get back to you. Oh, and I'm in California.

Also, the same store didn't have Sodium Ascorbate on the shelf, but when I asked for it they ordered it from NOW for me, $8.95 for 8 oz. Then 2 weeks later I saw a different brand of SA on the shelf. So, if your hfs carries NOW products, they most certainly should be able to order SA for you.

ETA:







Maybe I'm taking back the Bioflavonoids statement, because when I searched the NOW website, and found their Bioflavonoids product, the ingredients actually read:
Vitamin C (as Ascorbic Acid) 100 mg 167%
Citrus Bioflavonoids (37% Total Bioflavonoids as Hesperidin) 1.4 g †
Rutin 100 mg †

Pretty sneaky if you ask me 'cause the front label just says Bioflavonoid Caps.
I'll search on though.


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

Edited to add as my brain must be shot tonight. Mountain Chick, I look forward to seeing what brand the bioflavonoids are. thanks









I order SA from Bronson as they have the best price I have seen.

Speaking of Bronson they are going to have a buy one get one free in November for vitamin C









Bronson also has SA in tablet form.


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

Hmmm Swanson has a bioflavonoid complex


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## MyLittleWonders (Feb 16, 2004)

I just bought these:

Citrus Bioflavonoids, CL-7334
Country Life, 1000 mg,
250 Tablets

from iherb.com while I was buying S.A. powder. I'm thinking of getting the little pestel (sp?) thingy to grind them up and add to the SA powder when we take it, instead of having another pill to swallow (I'm beginning to realize that I live on various pills!







).


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

and that's the point. We shouldn't have to. That in itself makes me grumpy.


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## Vicky2005 (Nov 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
Usually places that sell SA online will have bioflavinoids in powder form, and yes, I prefer to put bioflavinoids with my SA, because they are co-factors.

If people want a tablet form more convenient for travelling... _a 1 kg bag of white powder might set off some hysterics don't you think?_ then I use a brand called Natural Factors (Canada) 100% natural fruit chews C 500 mgs one....


the Natural Factors - 100% natural fruit chews C500mgs? so this is sodium ascorbate? Is this the product - Vitamin C 500mg NATURAL FRUIT CHEWS ( 180's ) Passionfruit/Peach/Mango ?
I went to the health food store and asked for chewables and they said that they have only powder. I will be traveling in a few months so I would like to get the chewable. I don't want to have any problems with the Custom especially that I am traveling with small baby







and like you said, the powder could look really strange


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Yes that's the one. I like that one best, but the kids prefer the blueberry, raspberry and Boysenberry, but they are more acid to me..., natural factors is a mix of sodium ascorbate and ascorbic acid, but not only does it have citrus bioflavinoids, it has hesperidin biolflavinoids, rosehips, rutin and silica, so in terms of a mix its the most reasonable of any tablet that I've found.

And I don't get grumpy looks from customs with it.

The funnist I had with "powder" was coming back from my embroidery scholarship. We transfer design onto embroidered foundations with shell powder which comes in small ziplock plastic bags with inscrutible Japanese Kanji on them.

Which can cost the unwary traveller a few hours in a chilly bin while they check to see that it's not something erstwhile...


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Besides affecting stomach acidity and to provide the sodium ion, is there any other reason why ascorbate acid is not recommended? And why is stomach acidity so important (other than it breaks down our food)...to prevent ulcers, etc? If my children seem to be tolerating the ascorbic acid I give them daily, should I still switch to sodium ascorbate? For example, my oldest son (almost 6 yo and 67 pounds), receives approx. 3,000 mgs. of C daily when healthy and we up it when he is sick to about 6,500 to bowel tolerance. He takes a host of other supplements and eats 95% organic......am I killing his stomach? If he doesn't seem bothered by it is it because the damage hasn't been done yet (as in I would be seeing physical symptoms to gauge from), or because he likely is receiving the balance he needs of baking soda/sodium ion in his diet? I believe you said equal ratios. 1 part ascorbic acid to 1 part sodium bicarbonate? I believe he receives his sodium ion needs via iodine and calcium citrate. Is there a balance (ratio) equation for sodium ions in relation to the appropriate doses of ascorbic acid, and bicarbonate?

DC


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## thundersweet (Feb 28, 2003)

Ok, I have SA in my cart to purchase. What I have here is calcium ascorbate and I understand that is not what i want. Am I reading that my kids also need bioflavonoids?? I can't find a bioflavonoid powder. Would it be better to buy the Natural Factors fruit chews for my kids and crush the tablets (dont want to ruin teeth) since it had bioflavonoids?

Thanks!!!


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## sunshinestarr (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
Never use Ester C, or calcium ascorbate, except, or unless there is NOTHING ELSE around, and do NOT use it long term. If you MUST use it, you will require about double what you'd need with sodium ascorbate, and if you don't salt your food, then you must if you use Ester C. But remember, if there is any possibility that cancer is an issue... excess calcium in the body makes cancer cells go rampant.

That's not the only reason to not use it though...

Sorry to be getting in on the end of this - I haven't read the whole thread (LOTS of info!!) but I wanted to ask this because I keep forgetting. What's wrong with using Ester C? In _Prescription for Nutritional Healing_ by Phyllis and James Balch, they recommend Ester C highly...

Quote:

Esterified vitamin C (Ester C) is a remarkably effective form of vitamin C, especially for those suffering from chronic illnesses such as cancer and AIDS. It is created by having the vitamin C react with a necessary mineral, such as calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium or zinc. This results in a form of the vitamin that is nonacidic and that contains vitamin C metabolites identical to those produced by the body. Esterified vitamin C enters the bloodstream and tissues four times faster than standard forms of vitamin C because it moves into the blood cells more efficiently and also stays in the body tissues longer. The levels of vitamin C in white blood cells achieved by taking esterified vitamin C are four times higher than those achieved with standard vitamin C. Further, only one-third as much is lost through excretion in the urine.
I was at both the pharmacy and the health food store today and I ended up getting the non-acid (Ester C? I don't even know. I'm in a new country and there's a new language and I'm never really sure about what I'm getting







) because I was so confused - I had forgotten which one you recommended, and I actually even forgot what the book recommended.

Anyway, enough of my going on and on. I'm sorry if this was already answered in the thread.. I'm going to go back and try to read it.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Emergen-C is potassium ascorbate. It is good during labor .


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## sunshinestarr (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:

That is incorrect. The physiology of ester c is that for you to get to bowel tolerance you will have to take twice as much, and the mechanics of that is that the calcium is sheared off of the ascorbate, but for the ascorbate to be absorbed the body utilises localised sodium from any source nearby, to split the ascorbate into two molecules, one which the body uses, and the other which is excreted. BUT, before the ascorbate is utilised, the body uses some of it to chelate out the calcium, which when free in the body is dangerous to the body.

Far from being absorbed slower, the reason you need MORE Ester C to get to bowel tolerance is that the body has to divert some ascorbate to get the calcium out, so less is able to be used by the body.
Can this be translated into Dumb for me??


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## guestmama9911 (May 24, 2005)

If I take all this myself, it will get to my cutie patootie through my breast milk, correct? He's only 3 months old.


----------



## sunshinestarr (Jan 5, 2006)




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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Translation:

Quote:

That is incorrect. The physiology of ester c is that for you to get to bowel tolerance you will have to take twice as much, and the mechanics of that is that the calcium is sheared off of the ascorbate, but for the ascorbate to be absorbed the body utilises localised sodium from any source nearby, to split the ascorbate into two molecules, one which the body uses, and the other which is excreted. BUT, before the ascorbate is utilised, the body uses some of it to chelate out the calcium, which when free in the body is dangerous to the body.

Far from being absorbed slower, the reason you need MORE Ester C to get to bowel tolerance is that the body has to divert some ascorbate to get the calcium out, so less is able to be used by the body.
I'll try, but it might make it worse.

Ascorbate is split in two by sodium.

One part is excreted, one used.

If you use calcium ascorbate, the calcium shears off.

The ascorbate picks up sodium to split so it can be used.

But because calcium shouldn't be there in the free form, some ascorbate is used to take the calcium out the body.

This leaves you with about half the amount of ascorbate you put in originally.

If you used sodium ascorbate your body could use all of the ascorbate.

So by using calcium ascorbate, in order to get as much as you would need by using sodium ascorbate, you have to take twice as much.

Does that make sense, or is it mud?


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## sunshinestarr (Jan 5, 2006)

I think I'm starting to pick up what you're putting down, MT.
Thanks!


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## guestmama9911 (May 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alisaterry*
If I take all this myself, it will get to my cutie patootie through my breast milk, correct? He's only 3 months old.

Can anyone answer this for me? I would like to be certain DS is getting enough vit C and vit A but he's just a little guy. Will he get enough from me or should I actually get him some liuquid vitamins to take?


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Whether he gets enough from you, depends on whether you take enough for yourself in terms of daily needs, and there is a bit left over for him.

You can tell over time, by how easily they teethe and how many infections they get. But vitamin C isn't something that works just on its own. That's why the nutrition thread. It has to be in context of the whole...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
Besides affecting stomach acidity and to provide the sodium ion, is there any other reason why ascorbate acid is not recommended? And why is stomach acidity so important (other than it breaks down our food)...to prevent ulcers, etc? If my children seem to be tolerating the ascorbic acid I give them daily, should I still switch to sodium ascorbate? For example, my oldest son (almost 6 yo and 67 pounds), receives approx. 3,000 mgs. of C daily when healthy and we up it when he is sick to about 6,500 to bowel tolerance. He takes a host of other supplements and eats 95% organic......am I killing his stomach? If he doesn't seem bothered by it is it because the damage hasn't been done yet (as in I would be seeing physical symptoms to gauge from), or because he likely is receiving the balance he needs of baking soda/sodium ion in his diet? I believe you said equal ratios. 1 part ascorbic acid to 1 part sodium bicarbonate? *I believe he receives his sodium ion needs via iodine and calcium citrate.* Is there a balance (ratio) equation for sodium ions in relation to the appropriate doses of ascorbic acid, and bicarbonate?

Can you explain to me how he gets his sodium from iodine and calcium citrate?

Anyone can take ascorbic acid provided their system is alkaline and they get enough sodium in their diet.

Whether you get salt with iodine, depends on whether you use iodised salt, which I don't, because I rely on iodine in foods. Theoretically, if a person is getting enough salt with a bit to spare, they will have enough for the ascorbate to rob, to use to split into two parts.

But if like me, you don't normally salt your diet, then you'd have to eat high salt foods, to allow for the ascorbate.

The beauty to me of sodium ascorbate is that you don't have to think about it.

It goes into your body, and there are no other biochemical processed diverted or interfered with, because the ascorbate has what it needs with it, to do the job right there on the spot.

It is to me, biochemically more efficient to use it that way.


----------



## guestmama9911 (May 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
Whether he gets enough from you, depends on whether you take enough for yourself in terms of daily needs, and there is a bit left over for him.

You can tell over time, by how easily they teethe and how many infections they get. But vitamin C isn't something that works just on its own. That's why the nutrition thread. It has to be in context of the whole...

Thank you, MT









I'll be digesting the Nutrition Thread later.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

alisaterry, all I do is take info from one pile and shove it to another; call me the unholy shovel if you like, but quit the bowing, okay?

Any iriot can shovel stuff.


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## guestmama9911 (May 24, 2005)

OK. You are an Unholy Shovel. Let's turn THAT into a smilie!


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## Mountain Chick (Sep 8, 2004)

:

After reading all the labels at my hfs for bioflavinoids, I regret to inform you that I didn't find what I was looking for. And never found it in powder form anywhere...not even online!

Sorry ladies.


----------



## heket (Nov 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
Anyone can take ascorbic acid provided their system is alkaline and they get enough sodium in their diet.

Whether you get salt with iodine, depends on whether you use iodised salt, which I don't, because I rely on iodine in foods. Theoretically, if a person is getting enough salt with a bit to spare, they will have enough for the ascorbate to rob, to use to split into two parts.

I think these last few posts have cleared up an immense amount for me! This maybe a nutrition thread question, but is there some way of checking for the alkaline in your system? We use salt (in moderation), so I'm beginning to think that we're ok on that aspect. I've been wanting to improve our alkaline intake, but I'm not sure how I know what my system is like let alone improve upon it.

And while anyone can shovel stuff, not everyone is willing or able to do it. Hence all the bowing smilies (which are very well deserved.







) Thank you for enlightening and inspiring me to learn more.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mountain Chick*







:

After reading all the labels at my hfs for bioflavinoids, I regret to inform you that I didn't find what I was looking for. And never found it in powder form anywhere...not even online!

Sorry ladies.









Can someone else help out here in USA? If I, from a banana republic backwater hanging off the bottom of the earth have always been able to get powdered bioflavinoids, it would be amazing to me to find that in the whole of USA, no-one makes it...


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## MyLittleWonders (Feb 16, 2004)

I can't help - I ended up ordering online from www.iherb.com and could only find them in tablet form. So, each morning I grind them up between two spoons (I need one of those pill grinder things ... the clay cup thing and the thing you hold in your hand - what in the world is that called?) and add to my smoothie.


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

http://www.koshervitamins.com/shop/s...sp?Item_ID=437

http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00138.html

eta (found the link): http://www.swansonvitamins.com/webap...r=1&Ntk=Level1


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

Behold the power of google









http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...powder&spell=1


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mountain Chick*
After reading all the labels at my hfs for bioflavinoids, I regret to inform you that I didn't find what I was looking for. And never found it in powder form anywhere...not even online!

It's spelled "bioflavonoids" maybe that is why you are having trouble.

http://store.yahoo.com/iherb/bioflavonoid.html
http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/e...jsp?id=CL-1935
http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/e...jsp?id=BB-1344
http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/e...jsp?id=NT-1043
http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/e...jsp?id=NT-1041

I know Solgar, TwinLab and Country Life makes them too, which should be in well stocked hf stores.


----------



## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyLittleWonders*
(I need one of those pill grinder things ... the clay cup thing and the thing you hold in your hand - what in the world is that called?) and add to my smoothie.

mortar and pestle?

Iherb also has the NOW brand in caps that you can just open, I like that store, fast shipping.


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## Threefold (Nov 27, 2001)

Okay, so the best I've been able to find and get my family to take daily is the TRader Joes "Chewable Oranges and C", which I've always assumed to be the same as the Natural; Factors. It has 500mg ascorbic acid and sodium ascorbate, though it doesn't break down how much of each and 25 mg bioflavonoid complex (also doesn't give details). Are these ratios correct? Is this an acceptable supplement. If not, and I get the powdered bioflavonoids, what is the ratio of the bioflavonoids:sodium ascorbate ?
Thanks!


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Normally its 1 part bioflavonoids, to 5 sodium ascorbate.


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## patty_g (May 30, 2005)

Ok, so I recently received my order from the US - 3 lbs of SA and a bottle of bioflavonoids in capsule form. The problem I have now, is that the bioflavonoids taste EXACTLY like a really sour grapefruit and no one will take it. This from kids who were taking mint-flavored fish oil by the spoonful. I have tried putting it in juice, yogurt, with honey. So far, no go. I am open to suggestions. Please!


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## Mountain Chick (Sep 8, 2004)

Just to clarify, orginally I said my hfs had Bioflavonoids for sale...but when I went back and actually read the labels, they all included Vitamin C. I don't want Vit. C with them because I am planning on adding my SA to it.

Actually I just wanted Bioflavonoid powder, not tablets, and not capsules, so a big thank you to chlobo for posting this link http://www.koshervitamins.com/shop/s...sp?Item_ID=437

I used google when I was looking (and spelled it correctly







) and found these two also, but I would need to buy both (can you say expensive!) and mix them to get the complete complex: http://www.iherb.com/rutin.html & http://www.iherb.com/hesperidin.html All the rest are pills and have vitamin C or other things mixed in them. If you take a good look at the google link provided by momto l&a you'll see what I mean.

I just want my little plastic baggie of white powder!


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Patty, if they can swallow capsules, just give it to them that way. If not, whack it up in a fruit smoothie?


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Since the Swanson's Bioflavonoids are capsules, I assume you can just empty the contents & mix with something. It's got to be powder inside, right?


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## Kundalini-Mama (Jul 15, 2002)

Question, I've been doing some research on bioflavonoids and I'm finding that they are abundant in citrus. Well, we take our SA in organic OJ once a day (or a bunch of small doses throughout the day if we are fighting something), so would that provide the 1:5 ratio needed of bio:SA?


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

I don't know. I take mine in orange juice too, but still add the bioflavinoids. The OJ is mainly to conceal the taste, and cover my bases as to other nutrients as well...


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## Threefold (Nov 27, 2001)

Twin Labs also makes a bioflavonoid capsule (500mg). I have some on special order from the hfs. In order to get the 5:1 ratio in the correct amounts for my kiddos (who don't need 2500mg of SA on a daily basis), I am planning to measure and premix my powders. Is there any reason we can't do this?
My ds 5 drinks his in a small amount of oj, but my dd 18 mo, flat out refuses that, but she will let me rub the powders on the inside of her cheek. Is there any reason not to do it this way for her?

So many questions! I think I've learned more from this thread and the nutrition one than I did in my stint in grad school!


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## Vicky2005 (Nov 13, 2005)

I have been trying to find out if heat kills vitamin C.
For some reason it is stuck in my head that heat will kill vit c. Can somone tell me please whether I am wrong or correct?


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vicky2005*
I have been trying to find out if heat kills vitamin C.
For some reason it is stuck in my head that heat will kill vit c. Can somone tell me please whether I am wrong or correct?









Absolutely does.

The amount of vitamin C killed by pasteurizing milk is equal to the entire citrus crop in the U.S. (source The Untold Story of Milk by Ron Schmid ND)


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## lucyem (Apr 30, 2005)

OK I am breastfeeding. If I have a vitamin (regular daily) he screams all afternoon. If I have a vitamin c he screams all afternoon. Juice is on the list I cannot drink, even apple makes him colicky. Just now at 5-6 months I can get away with a cup of grape juice now and then. Though grape juice gets to me. Fruit flavoured waters also cause problems. Anyway how can I get vitamin c into our bodies without causing him discomfort? Sodium Ascorbate you all mention in this thread as being what to get. Could that make a difference?


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

If taking ascorbic acid is bad, does that mean taking supplemental HCL, or vinegar, is bad too? My naturopath has me taking Betain HCL capsules.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pookietooth*
If taking ascorbic acid is bad, does that mean taking supplemental HCL, or vinegar, is bad too? My naturopath has me taking Betain HCL capsules.

Do a google search, research it.. ask her why, and then decide.

Nothing wrong with cider vinegar. It helps keep the body less acid.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lucyem*
OK I am breastfeeding. If I have a vitamin (regular daily) he screams all afternoon. If I have a vitamin c he screams all afternoon. Juice is on the list I cannot drink, even apple makes him colicky. Just now at 5-6 months I can get away with a cup of grape juice now and then. Though grape juice gets to me. Fruit flavoured waters also cause problems. Anyway how can I get vitamin c into our bodies without causing him discomfort? Sodium Ascorbate you all mention in this thread as being what to get. Could that make a difference?

I don't advocate supplementing as a normal course of events. You are short changing yourself if you do. The key to growing good babies in utero and outside utero via breastmilk is getting your nutrition right at least 18 months before conception.

Traditionally, indigenous people have the concept of special diets for women planning to become pregnant, during pregnancy and afterwards... why is it we have lost that?

If your diet is superb then you will need minimal supplementation. If your diet is not, then revamp it. But I do NOT advocate a vitamin supplement. The foundation of good health isn't so much vitamins as minerals.

They should be any pregnant/nursing woman's concern.

So the plan of action should always be a top diet.

Then, if like me you have an immunodeficiency, then supplement. But rarely will you need to supplement in a way that causes a baby problems.

Some people supplement so that they can have their cake and eat it i.e. eat junk and get the extra in tablets. It never works that way actually. All they are doing is shortchanging everyone.

So, in your case, particularly as your baby is seemingly sensitive, I would start with your diet.

If you feel its fine, just drop your supplements.

Have you studied the nutrition immunity thread?


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Okay, I reread this and thought more about it. If you do have to supplement, you have to know what you are doing.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lucyem*
OK I am breastfeeding. If I have a vitamin (regular daily) he screams all afternoon.

What is a regular daily vitamin supplement? What is in it?

Quote:

If I have a vitamin c he screams all afternoon.
What do you call vitamin C and how much? If it has aspartame in it and some C tablets do, you are going to have trouble with a big T.

Quote:

Juice is on the list I cannot drink, even apple makes him colicky.
Have you tried to figure out why? Is it the acidity? Is there some preservative or colouring in it, that might be an allergen?

Quote:

Just now at 5-6 months I can get away with a cup of grape juice now and then. Though grape juice gets to me.
What do you mean, that grape juice gets to you. If it gets to you, are you surprised it gets to your baby?

Quote:

Fruit flavoured waters also cause problems.
What are fruit flavoured waters? Are they ingredients that could be allergens?

Quote:

Anyway how can I get vitamin c into our bodies without causing him discomfort?
Like I say, what do YOU mean by vitamin C, and in what form and with what are you taking it? If you supplement, WHEN do you supplement?

Quote:

Sodium Ascorbate you all mention in this thread as being what to get. Could that make a difference?
It might. But you still have to know what you are doing, and why, or even if its necessary.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

The other factor in all this is your immune system, whether your husband has sensitivities, what state your gut flora is in, whether your baby has had antibiotics at all. There are a huge number of factors that relate to why a baby does what it does.

And if your medical history is like mine, and such that there is potential for problems, then its more important to know that. And so advice isn't easy if we don't know the whole picture as to what makes up everything that your baby came from, and your health because you are the conduit of his food.


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## Sirte (Jun 23, 2005)

I read a post by MT a few days or maybe weeks ago that sometimes taking SA during an illness can drag out the illness. I couldn't find this post when I tried searching back. Can anyone explain this further?

I thought that SA could generally cause the illness to shorten or be less severe, not the other way around. If memory serves, MT was saying that sometimes when she feels a cold coming on, she'll hold off on the SA and then start taking it later on in the illness when the symptoms kick in a little more (or something like that?)

So how do you know what illnesses to start SA with right away, and which to let develop a bit before hitting them with SA? My H has been in some state of minor cold-like illness for a few weeks now. He's taking SA (but he seldom takes it to bowel tolerance














and I'm wondering if the reason(s) why he can't kick the cold might have to do with: 1) the fact that he's not taking the SA to bowel tolerance to get the full benefit of the Vit. C; and/or 2) he shouldn't have started the SA at all until his symptoms developed a bit more.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Well, everyone is an individual.

If I get a cold I stop taking SA because it will just hang around with me.

I think that's because I've not yet fine tuned the minerals in my body yet, but also, because I so rarely get a cold now, I don't have too many opportunities to experiment to see what would work. I have found that now that I have my prevention better, that I'm becoming more ignorant about what to do at the bottom of the cliff









With my body there are tell tale signs that its a cold. For a start, the mucus with thicken up and become stringy before it starts. I feel it in the tonsillar crypt. I don't get those symptoms on any other infection type, so I know when its going to be a cold.

Last week I started to feel very tired and heavy and wondered if I had a cold coming, but the mucus didn't thicken, so I ploughed into the Vitamin C, and I think the problem was my annual spring-clean when I pig out on grapes, because it came right.

I wait until my cold is full blown and I'm over the peak of green before picking up the vitamin C again. *But, having just written up the iron post on the nutrition thread, it dawned on me that maybe the problem was that until recently, I had anaemia, and the iron deficiency was a factor in it.*

So next time I feel a cold coming on, I'm going to plough into the iron rich foods and see if that makes a difference.

With other infections like measles, mumps, chickenpox ~ anything that has a fever element (colds don't have a fever element with me) I don't hold back the vitamin C.

I'm not an expert enough on it.

I just jury rig what works best for me.

My ideal end point is to get my body to the point where it hardly ever happens, but as I said, that could leave you in a situation where you've forgotten what to do when it does happen.

But my husband is my model. His diet is fantastic and he simply NEVER gets colds. He just watches everyone else with them. Sometimes he will say he's got a cold, but his version of a cold is two drips from the right nostril and one sneeze.

So that's where I'm aiming. He's got far more halos than I have though and eats a lot more vegetables than I do. But he tells me if I would spent less time in front of the computer and more time working hard physically I would be able to have room to eat more than a budgie does.

Catch 22.

With your husband, I would feed him iron rich foods until they come out his ears and see what happens then. If it still hangs around, stop the vitamin C, and let the cold do its thing. After all, they a great cleaner outers of junk, and perhaps he has more junk to get rid of than the body can manage itself right now.


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## sunshinestarr (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
But he tells me if I would spent less time in front of the computer...










You'd better not listen to him!!


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## dooldad (Mar 23, 2005)

"Ridiculous Dietary Allowance" by Dr Steve Hickey and Dr Hilary Roberts
available at Lulu.com
Its been some time since I read it. It does say that the half life for vitamin C in the body is 30 min and you should take it through out the day.
I'm not sure if they distinguish between the different forms.

Also a question for MT. I add 1/4 tsp SA in a liter of water and I try to drink 2 to 3 liters a day, is the SA still good. I would hope the SA doesn't some how go bad or inactive.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

OK I need some help with products here. I spent half an hour at The Apothecary yesterday. They seem to have every supplement out there. But no sodium ascorbate. Their specialist said they used to have one but don't anymore.

Whole Foods doesn't have it either.

BUT.... both places have a version of Vitamin C called "calcium ascorbate"... "Ester-C" I think it's called. It says it's very gentle on the stomach.

Thoughts? Suggestions?


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Dooldad, I have done that too. It should be fine.

Periwinkle, what do you mean by "any thoughts"?


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

MT don't bust my balls! What do you mean what do I mean? I mean I need help!!









Pretty please?


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## Threefold (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_dalai_mama*
Twin Labs also makes a bioflavonoid capsule (700mg). I have some on special order from the hfs. In order to get the 5:1 ratio in the correct amounts for my kiddos, I am planning to measure and premix my powders. Is there any reason we can't do this?
My ds 5 drinks his in a small amount of oj, but my dd 18 mo, flat out refuses that, but she will let me rub the powders on the inside of her cheek. Is there any reason not to do it this way for her?

If I may commit the unpardonable sin of quoting myself, does anyone know the answers to my questions?

Thanks!


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## mamajessica (Sep 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
MT don't bust my balls! What do you mean what do I mean? I mean I need help!!









Pretty please?

Jumping in to say that EsterC is NOT recommended! I believe that in dire circumstanced ascorbic acid and sodium bicarb. combo can be used.


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## chasmyn (Feb 23, 2004)

Just jumping in, as I have just finished reading the entire thread. Excellent, excellent.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

I read that Ester C is not recommended here and elsewhere. Why is that? I can't find any info about that.

Does anyone have info about a brand of Sodium Ascorbate I can ask the Apothecary to order for me? I'd prefer not to have the crystals or chewable because of damage to the tooth enamel.


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## Kundalini-Mama (Jul 15, 2002)

We get the NOW brand from our co-op special order (the 3lbs size). But it might be cheaper to order it online from that site that someone else posted before.


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## chasmyn (Feb 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
I read that Ester C is not recommended here and elsewhere. Why is that? I can't find any info about that.

Does anyone have info about a brand of Sodium Ascorbate I can ask the Apothecary to order for me? I'd prefer not to have the crystals or chewable because of damage to the tooth enamel.

If you read the whole thread, all of your questions will be answered.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Oh okay. I've read the whole thread twice I think - once initially and once a couple of months ago. I guess I forgot. Thanks.


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## chasmyn (Feb 23, 2004)

posted earlier:

Quote:

MT - I am in shock. Everyone in the health food store tells me that ester C is the best vit C because your body absorbes it slower so your body will take more vitamin c etc, etc....

MT: That is incorrect. The physiology of ester c is that for you to get to bowel tolerance you will have to take twice as much, and the mechanics of that is that the calcium is sheared off of the ascorbate, but for the ascorbate to be absorbed the body utilises localised sodium from any source nearby, to split the ascorbate into two molecules, one which the body uses, and the other which is excreted. BUT, before the ascorbate is utilised, the body uses some of it to chelate out the calcium, which when free in the body is dangerous to the body.

Far from being absorbed slower, the reason you need MORE Ester C to get to bowel tolerance is that the body has to divert some ascorbate to get the calcium out, so less is able to be used by the body.

Furthermore, by dragging out sodium of the body to do the job it needs to do, if a person isn't eating salt hand over fist, you can become sodium deficient, which totally bombs the immune system. I know, because because of a mistake I made, I took Ester-C in high doses for 9 months, and my whole immune system crashed. I ended up having to salt my food for about three weeks. Urgh...

Quote:
I am glad that you mention about it. I have to really look into it becasue I am totally wrong
So what is the best vitamin C to take?

MT: Sodium Ascorbate...
I don't remember the brands recommended, though...there were a few.


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

I dont care for the NOW brand of SA. Its differant somehow.


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## salmontree (Mar 29, 2004)

bump


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## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

wow what a long thread! If anyone is still watching this, is there any benefit to taking more than 500 mg of sodium ascorbate (or whatever it is called, it's a bit too late for me to be thinking clearly right now!) if that does the trick for me? I've been taking 500 mg a day of regular Vitamin C for almost a year now and haven't had a cold since I started doing that (I usually get 2 colds a year)...I do take an extra 500 mg if I get a sore throat which is how my colds always start out. I've had a few sore throats but no colds. I am breast-feeding if that makes any difference...


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

MT, if you're still monitoring this thread, I was wondering, if someone isn't eating much dairy, is calcium ascorbate really such a bad thing? I can get it easily, but sodium ascorbate has to be special ordered from my local HFS for some reason.


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## carnelian (Feb 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
Never use Ester C, or calcium ascorbate, except, or unless there is NOTHING ELSE around, and do NOT use it long term. But remember, if there is any possibility that cancer is an issue... excess calcium in the body makes cancer cells go rampant.

Hey now, that's rather disconcerting information. Particularly since calcium supplementation is widespread in this country. Are there any studies, data, references to this effect? What about calcium supplements? Is it only the ascorbate form that is contraindicated? Talking mainly in terms of a cal supp. Which I'm not taking right now but am considering for various reasons tho still doing my darndest to get it thru diet--fermented dairy, liberal use of celtic sea salt, almonds, broccoli, rooibos tea and the like.


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## chasmyn (Feb 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pookietooth*
MT, if you're still monitoring this thread, I was wondering, if someone isn't eating much dairy, is calcium ascorbate really such a bad thing? I can get it easily, but sodium ascorbate has to be special ordered from my local HFS for some reason.

They have it at Vitamin Life in Redmond:

http://www.vitaminlife.com/product-e...oduct_id/13728

Is where we get it. If you order online the prices are cheaper then you can pick it up in the store.


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## dooldad (Mar 23, 2005)

I just read "Ridiculous Dietary Allowance" again. It is very interesting reading about how the FDA set the Vit C RDA.

One thing they talked about was the very fast half-life of Vit C. Once the blood is at a certain concentration, the half-life of vit C is 30 min. To achieve higher levels, you need to dose throughout the day.

They also mention absorption of C, when you take 1000 mg in one dose, only 500 mg are absorbed, if you take 2000 in one dose only slightly more is absorbed. But if you take 1000 mg twice a day, your body can absorb 500 mg each dose. They recommend something like 500 mg 5 or 6 times a day, spaced out every 4 hours.

This is for healthy people, not under stress or sick. Then the amount absorbed, and required is much, much greater. The problem is that not much research takes this dosing into account.

This is probably why some research on high dose C doesn't show great results. One dose in the morning of 3000 mg is almost the same as a dose of 500 mg.

Hope this helps.


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## carnelian (Feb 24, 2006)

_
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
Never use Ester C, or calcium ascorbate, except, or unless there is NOTHING ELSE around, and do NOT use it long term. But remember, if there is any possibility that cancer is an issue... excess calcium in the body makes cancer cells go rampant._

Ok, this is still bothering me. I've spent a couple weeks trying to find info on this and nothing, nada, zip. Everything I've read, everyone I've talked to--mainly NDs and supplement pharmacists--say that calcium ascorbate is *the* form of C to take, being the most bio-available and easiest on the gut. No one seems to have heard of it being implicated in disease or excess calcium in the body. Actually I did find one article that stated that older folks shouldn't use it because of the possibility of calcification in the blood due to increased use of other calcium supps. But that was it. Also it's *the* formula that's all over the shelves at the HFSs.

I have a newish bottle of buffered C in the form of ascorbyl palmitate, calcium ascorbate, magnesium ascorbate and potassium ascorbate given me by my ND. Unless I can find any studies/data to the contrary I'd like to continue taking it. So MT if you're still monitoring this thread could you pretty please direct me to any studies/data/references etc that support this premise. Thank-you


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## Alvie (Mar 14, 2005)

Thanks for bumping this back to the first page, I was also trying to find some more info on the sodium ascorbate/metabolism question. Some links or sources of info would be great! I posted on the nutrition/immunology thread, but I guess I should have posted here...let me find my previous post...it was a pretty good read for anyone who is interested:

I have one concern, MT...regarding the Sodium Ascorbate powder that was mentioned a while ago. Is that amount of sodium wise to take when doing a large amount of Vit C, like say 4000 - 5000mg? There is about 131 mg sodium/gram of vit C, so that's 655mg of sodium your'e taking. Is all that sodium used up in the metabolism of Vit C? Or is that going to hang around in your body?
What about using Magnesium Ascorbate as an alternative? Or would that be akin to taking calcium ascorbate, in that over the long term it would cause a sodium deficiency?
I'm much more comfortable taking extra magnesium than sodium....as excess magnesium is easier to eliminate from kidneys than sodium is. The body actually has a mechanism in the kidneys to conserve sodium at the expense of Mg and K.

I did some study on electrolyte balance and how it relates to health, and know that problems occur when faced with high sodium/calcium and low pottassium/magnesium. Sodium is found in majority in blood and plasma and Pottassium and Magnesium in the cells...and this state is not fixed, the electrolytes are in constant motion in what is called the day/night cycle. During the day, sodium, calcium, and other bits and pieces move slowly into the cells displacing some of the Mg and K. At night, Mg and K should move back into the cells, allowing for the relaxation of muscles during sleeping hours. (Which would explain some of the symptoms of Mag deficiency...insomnia, not feeling rested upon waking, muscle cramps etc)

Which brings us to the problems that occur when Na (sodium) and Ca are in excess, which is common in the diet most people have in the west. Na moves into the cells during the day, but is not removed at night by Mg and K....the cells become acidic and metabolic problems occur....calcium enters to buffer the acidity, and drops out of solution, thereby 'calcifying' the tissues. This is a big problem in many degenerative conditions. (Interestingly, when calcium drops out of solution, the body will pull more from the bones to keep the blood calcium levels stable...)

My shift has been to a low sodium and high K (potassium) and Mg diet. Along with other detox tecniques, and Mag supplementation (along with other important co factors like B vits especially B3 and 6, Vit C and E, zinc, selenium, and trace minerals, EFAs. (I don't supplement with calcium)
Initially there was a great shift of stored sodium in my body, with symptoms like my palms peeling, hang nails, mouth ulcers, muscle stiffness etc....and 3 or 4 years down the line, I must say, I think there is still more to be removed....although most of those initial symptoms have cleared up....

So - this brings me back to my initial worry of the sodium content of Sodium Ascorbate. I would be very interested in the source of your research on this, maybe you could give me a link.

A great book which deals with this subject is Max Gerson's "A Cancer Therapy- results of 50 cases",He talks about the role of electrolyte balance in disease, a great man he was, and way before his time.

The site http://www.natnut.co.uk
(sorry I don't know if I inserted that link properly) Thats the college I studied at in England and I think they have a forum although I have not been to it in ages. The college has a great philosophy though, and worth looking into.

All the best on your quest for knowledge!


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

Alvie, on the site that you posted, I couldn't find anything about nutrition, just about the school itself. I regret now freaking out and throwing out a $23 bottle of calcium ascobate -- I'm thinking it's really not necessarily so bad, in that I wasn't taking huge doses and anyway I'm not doing much dairy these days (it gives me migraines) or eating many leafy greens either. Oh well, live and learn.


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## Alvie (Mar 14, 2005)

Yeah, all the nutrition info was on the forums which don't seem to be working right now....sorry 'bout that....
Anyway, the important thing of what I learned there was the fact that sodium excess can be a real problem, not just for hypertension, but for general health...


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## carnelian (Feb 24, 2006)

Alvie, I was under the impression that it's specifically the chloride form of sodium that's been implicated in hypertension.


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## Alvie (Mar 14, 2005)

I believe too much sodium in any form can lead to imbalances, especially if there is an underlying magnesium and potassium deficiency. Magnesium and pottassium are 2 minerals commonly low in most diets. Sodium chloride happens to be the form that is used so prevalently , so yes, I would think that it is implicated with hypertension and other illnesses. Naturally occuring sodium in vegetables usually has a corresponding amount of potassium (2 or 3 times as much potassium than sodium) so would be less likely to cause an imbalance.

Which is why I'm inquiring about sodium ascorbate...I am just concerned about that much sodium causing an imbalance, and would like to research it more.

That book I mentioned before, Max Gerson's cancer therapy talks about this topic. His nutritional therapy involves a strict vegetable and fruit based diet with some whole grains and they do about 13 fresh vegetable juices a day. Thats a whopping amount of potassium. Plus they take extra potassium in supplement form. No salt allowed. Potassium and sodium have an atagonistic relationship in our body, and this rush of potassium into the cells would displace the sodium that is stored there. He noticed that these patients excreted great amounts of sodium over a period of time, and after some time on this diet, their cancer was healed. Which led him to the theory that somehow this excessive sodium lodges itself in human tissue and causes tumor growth (among other things) as excess sodium in our cells changes the pH to acid and causes metabolic disturbances.
(sadly, like all other amazing breakthroughs in natural medicine, his facility was shut down by the American government and The Gerson therapy was banned here I guess the AMA felt a bit threatened- there are still some clinics in Mexico)

Usually the more I learn, the more questions I have....and I was also interested in MT's research about free floating calcium causing cancer to florish...interesting.


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## carnelian (Feb 24, 2006)

Thank-you for all the food for thought on sodium. I'm reading a fascinating book on the history of salt right now and it throws this element into such a different light.

What's your feeling about celtic sea salt? It's loaded with trace minerals and I would think that it would have a more supportive effect on the body than regular iodized table salt.

Have you found anything on the negatives of free-floating calcium?


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## Alvie (Mar 14, 2005)

Yes, thats what I use, but in quite strict moderation, I think I've had the same 1 lb bag for about a year now....and it still has about a third left in it!
One think I have realised about the nutrition/health subject is that there is so much contradiction out there! I have also read stuff about the benefits of celtic sea salt, and about the miracle of supplements like coral calcium.

One thing about calcium I did learn, is that it will act as a buffer in your body.(A buffer is a substance that neutralises an acid) So when your cells are acidic, calcium rushes in there to buffer the acidity, and in so doing it will drop out of solution, thereby calcifying and becoming hardened. Your blood likes to maintain a homeostasis (constant levels at all times), so when calcium drops out of solution your body will try to get calcium from another source...i.e. your bones. So Osteoporosis is not calcium deficiency but more a calcium misplacement as it is all going into your cells. To now take calcium supplements would be extremely counter-productive, and actually contribute to calcifying your body even more. Conditions like arthritis, atherosclerosis, stiffening up with age, are all signs of this acidity/calcification process and I wouldn't be surprised if calcified cells become malignant as MT suggests. What these people need to do more than anything is to alkalize their bodies.

I think what I have learned in college makes alot of sense to me and following the basics of it has worked for me for the past 4 years.

I am still debating wether to go out and get a bottle of Sodium Ascorbate.....I have read this thread with interest and know that Vit C therapy can be a marvellous thing.

Does anyone have any info on Magnesium Ascorbate? How would that form fare?


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## carnelian (Feb 24, 2006)

Hmm that's interesting about the alkalinity. I wonder if the effects of calcium ascorbate would be mitigated in a body that uses a daily dose of apple cider vinegar, lemon juice and other alkalinizing supports. I have yet to come on board fully with the SA because I haven't been able to find anything contraindicating CA. Not that there isn't anything just that I haven't been able to find it. Your description gives me a few more details to work with. I have, however, found lots of supportive research on SA in specific situations.

Yes, contradictions seem to abound in the nutritional realm. But then we are beings full of contradicitions ourselves aren't we?







It makes one feel a bit







tho. I've heard alot of negatives to do with coral calcium, mainly poor absorption and the presence of lead. Haven't done enough research to know how well-founded those claims are.

What about lowish levels of sodium in the blood despite liberal use of css? As to the mag, this is one of the mineral ascorbates in my C prep, along with calcium and potassium and ascorbyl palmitate, tho not in that order. And not that that gives you any info on it


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## Bia (Oct 21, 2004)




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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carnelian*

Ok, this is still bothering me. I've spent a couple weeks trying to find info on this and nothing, nada, zip. Everything I've read, everyone I've talked to--mainly NDs and supplement pharmacists--say that calcium ascorbate is *the* form of C to take, being the most bio-available and easiest on the gut. No one seems to have heard of it being implicated in disease or excess calcium in the body. Actually I did find one article that stated that older folks shouldn't use it because of the possibility of calcification in the blood due to increased use of other calcium supps. But that was it. Also it's *the* formula that's all over the shelves at the HFSs.

...

Most all the Dr's who have used C to treat various ailments all used sodium ascorabte. Klenner, Cathcart, Belfield (vet), Kalokerinos are some names that come to mind.


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## mammom (Aug 13, 2004)




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## Ex Libris (Jan 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alvie*
I believe too much sodium in any form can lead to imbalances, especially if there is an underlying magnesium and potassium deficiency. Magnesium and pottassium are 2 minerals commonly low in most diets. Sodium chloride happens to be the form that is used so prevalently , so yes, I would think that it is implicated with hypertension and other illnesses. Naturally occuring sodium in vegetables usually has a corresponding amount of potassium (2 or 3 times as much potassium than sodium) so would be less likely to cause an imbalance.

Which is why I'm inquiring about sodium ascorbate...I am just concerned about that much sodium causing an imbalance, and would like to research it more.

That book I mentioned before, Max Gerson's cancer therapy talks about this topic. His nutritional therapy involves a strict vegetable and fruit based diet with some whole grains and they do about 13 fresh vegetable juices a day. Thats a whopping amount of potassium. Plus they take extra potassium in supplement form. No salt allowed. Potassium and sodium have an atagonistic relationship in our body, and this rush of potassium into the cells would displace the sodium that is stored there. He noticed that these patients excreted great amounts of sodium over a period of time, and after some time on this diet, their cancer was healed. Which led him to the theory that somehow this excessive sodium lodges itself in human tissue and causes tumor growth (among other things) as excess sodium in our cells changes the pH to acid and causes metabolic disturbances.
(sadly, like all other amazing breakthroughs in natural medicine, his facility was shut down by the American government and The Gerson therapy was banned here I guess the AMA felt a bit threatened- there are still some clinics in Mexico)

This is my concern as well. I have a hard time resisting salt on certain foods (like eggs and beans), so I hate to add more sodium to my diet with the SA, unless, as you're wondering Alvie, it's completely used up by the body in processing the C. I've heard someone else mention (sorry, I can't remember who or on which thread), a natural source of vitamin C, acerola, which already contains the needed bioflavonoids, without all the sodium. I'd like to look into this one some more.


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## Ex Libris (Jan 31, 2004)

bump!


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alvie*
I have one concern, MT...regarding the Sodium Ascorbate powder that was mentioned a while ago. Is that amount of sodium wise to take when doing a large amount of Vit C, like say 4000 - 5000mg? There is about 131 mg sodium/gram of vit C, so that's 655mg of sodium your'e taking. Is all that sodium used up in the metabolism of Vit C? Or is that going to hang around in your body?

I thought I had answered this, but seemingly, its still an issue.

Why would sodium presented with ascorbate be an issue, when it is *used* to split the ascorbate molecule in order to use it, and excreted in the process?

Quote:

What about using Magnesium Ascorbate as an alternative?
of what biological function would that be, in terms of the biochemical way ascorbate is utilised? Assuming the form of magnesium was bioavailable, it would be better than calcium because we are a calcium excess society and chronically magnesium deficient, but it still wouldn't solve the issue that ascorbate requires a sodium ion in order to be split.

Quote:

Or would that be akin to taking calcium ascorbate, in that over the long term it would cause a sodium deficiency?
Mag asc, would cause the same sodium depletion as calc asc (since it would still be pulled from the body in order to deal with the ascorbate), with the difference that at least you wouldn't be contributing to even more calcium excess, which would need to be chelated out.

At least the magnesium would perform an alkalinising function, and redress some of the chronic magnesium shortages that are prevalent in society today.

Quote:

I'm much more comfortable taking extra magnesium than sodium....as excess magnesium is easier to eliminate from kidneys than sodium is. The body actually has a mechanism in the kidneys to conserve sodium at the expense of Mg and K.
Like I say, if you try it and it works for you fine. I'm assuming then, that you will have sufficient sodium naturally in your diet to allow for processing of ascorbate. If that is not the case, then you might pay the same price that I did. And its' not pretty.

I know many people who have tried calcium ascorbate, and believe that vitamin C is useless, becuase it made their conditions worse, not better. When they change to SA, their health changes.

But, and you might not like this, I don't listen to people in health food shops. While they like to think they are altruistic and knowledgeable, many of them are as much parrots as are CDC-quoting doctors.

Quote:

I did some study on electrolyte balance and how it relates to health, and know that problems occur when faced with high sodium/calcium and low pottassium/magnesium.
Absolutely, but the main key for potassium is magnesium, as its magnesium that unlocks the cell walls to potassium.

Quote:

Sodium is found in majority in blood and plasma and Pottassium and Magnesium in the cells...and this state is not fixed, the electrolytes are in constant motion in what is called the day/night cycle.
True. But long term, if you take very high doses of ester C, you are going to deepen the depths to which sodium must be taken, and that can have dire consequences.

Quote:

During the day, sodium, calcium, and other bits and pieces move slowly into the cells displacing some of the Mg and K. At night, Mg and K should move back into the cells, allowing for the relaxation of muscles during sleeping hours. (Which would explain some of the symptoms of Mag deficiency...insomnia, not feeling rested upon waking, muscle cramps etc)

Which brings us to the problems that occur when Na (sodium) and Ca are in excess, which is common in the diet most people have in the west. Na moves into the cells during the day, but is not removed at night by Mg and K....the cells become acidic and metabolic problems occur....calcium enters to buffer the acidity, and drops out of solution, thereby 'calcifying' the tissues. This is a big problem in many degenerative conditions. (Interestingly, when calcium drops out of solution, the body will pull more from the bones to keep the blood calcium levels stable...)
But the sodium in sodium ascorbate is irrelevant to this equation since it is utilised in the process and isn't treated like salt you shove onto tomatoes by the pinchful.

Quote:

My shift has been to a low sodium and high K (potassium) and Mg diet. Along with other detox tecniques, and Mag supplementation (along with other important co factors like B vits especially B3 and 6, Vit C and E, zinc, selenium, and trace minerals, EFAs. (I don't supplement with calcium)
Initially there was a great shift of stored sodium in my body, with symptoms like my palms peeling, hang nails, mouth ulcers, muscle stiffness etc....and 3 or 4 years down the line, I must say, I think there is still more to be removed....although most of those initial symptoms have cleared up....

So - this brings me back to my initial worry of the sodium content of Sodium Ascorbate. I would be very interested in the source of your research on this, maybe you could give me a link.
My sources are from many books. Irwin Stone, Steve Hickey, Professor Clemetson's texts, and Dr Kalokerinos's books.

I have talked to many of the doctors who use vitamin C, and most favour sodium ascorbate. Some use a combination of sodium, magnesium and potassium ascorbate in some of their patients, but again, that is done on a case by case assessment, since some people will alter their diet, and others will not.

however, for the purposes of this discussion, I will type out what is written in Dr Kalokerinos's book "Vitamin C":

Quote:

The facts: molecular weights.

Molecular weight of Sodium Ascorbate = 198
Molecular weight of sodium = 23
i.e. % of sodium in sodium ascorbate = 12% (Actually 11.6%)If 1 heaped teaspoonful Sodium Ascorbate - 4 grams then 12% = sodium ion i.e. 480mg.

3 heaped teaspoonsfuls per day = 1.44 grams of sodium per day.

The recommended intake of sodium on a low salt diet is 2.0 grams per day, so 1.44 grams i still well short of the recommended sodium intake i.e. even by orthodix standards, 3 heaped teaspoonfuls of sodium Ascorbate per day does not represent a lot of sodium.
As a matter of interest the molecular weight of NaCl = 57, i.e. 40% of the weight = sodium. I teaspoonful of salt would give more sodium than 3 heaped teaspoonfuls of sodium Ascorbate.

SODIUM OF SOCIUM ASCORBATE IS HANDLED DIFFERENTLY IN THE BODY TO SODIUM OF SODIUM CHLORIDE AND SODIUM OF SODIUM BICARBONATE.

At the kidney interface the ascorbate anion is excreted along with a dosium cation as its major co-ion (pg 89 - 90, Vitamin C - It's molecular Biology and Meidcal Potential, Dr Sherry Lewin Ph.D)

I.e. Ascorbate drags out sodium ion as its major co-ion when its is excreted via the kidneys. Very small amounts only of K+, NH4-, Ca++, Mg++ and some heavy metals are co-excreted.

The sodium of sodium cchloride is excreted along with several coions and does not have the advantage of the chloride anion dragging sodium out through the kidney tubules in the same way as the Ascorbate anion drags out the sodium ion.
In short, Alvie, do what you want. I will stick with what the doctors who use vitamin C most, have found to be the least destructive for body biochemistry as a whole.

If you disagree with them, that is your choice.

Quote:

A great book which deals with this subject is Max Gerson's "A Cancer Therapy- results of 50 cases",He talks about the role of electrolyte balance in disease, a great man he was, and way before his time.

The site http://www.natnut.co.uk
(sorry I don't know if I inserted that link properly) Thats the college I studied at in England and I think they have a forum although I have not been to it in ages. The college has a great philosophy though, and worth looking into.

All the best on your quest for knowledge!
He was a man before his time, and a doctor here, Eva Hill, was cured of cancer through his methods.

That doesn't mean that he knew all there was to know about vitamin C.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alvie*
I believe too much sodium in any form can lead to imbalances, especially if there is an underlying magnesium and potassium deficiency. Magnesium and pottassium are 2 minerals commonly low in most diets. Sodium chloride happens to be the form that is used so prevalently , so yes, I would think that it is implicated with hypertension and other illnesses.

But sodium ascorbate bears little relationship to sodium chloride. I don't understand why you don't understand that.

Quote:

Naturally occuring sodium in vegetables usually has a corresponding amount of potassium (2 or 3 times as much potassium than sodium) so would be less likely to cause an imbalance.

Which is why I'm inquiring about sodium ascorbate...I am just concerned about that much sodium causing an imbalance, and would like to research it more.
hopefully you can research the issue yourself and come to an answer that satisfies yourself.

Quote:

That book I mentioned before, Max Gerson's cancer therapy talks about this topic.
It does NOT talk about using sodium ascorbate in the manner in which I am talking about using it.

Quote:

His nutritional therapy involves a strict vegetable and fruit based diet with some whole grains and they do about 13 fresh vegetable juices a day. Thats a whopping amount of potassium.
It's actually a whopping amount of sodium from plants as well. Which I agree is not the same as sodium chloride.

Quote:

Plus they take extra potassium in supplement form. No salt allowed. Potassium and sodium have an atagonistic relationship in our body, and this rush of potassium into the cells would displace the sodium that is stored there. He noticed that these patients excreted great amounts of sodium over a period of time, and after some time on this diet, their cancer was healed. Which led him to the theory that somehow this excessive sodium lodges itself in human tissue and causes tumor growth (among other things) as excess sodium in our cells changes the pH to acid and causes metabolic disturbances.
(sadly, like all other amazing breakthroughs in natural medicine, his facility was shut down by the American government and The Gerson therapy was banned here I guess the AMA felt a bit threatened- there are still some clinics in Mexico)
In a culture that uses sodium chloride to excess this may be so. But not all cultures do that.

Quote:

Usually the more I learn, the more questions I have....and I was also interested in MT's research about free floating calcium causing cancer to florish...interesting.
It's not my research. It's in the medical literature. They KNOW that free calcium encourages cancer growth.

They also know that vitamin C discourages it as well.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0111162230.htm

and that may be the reason.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momto l&a*
Most all the Dr's who have used C to treat various ailments all used sodium ascorabte. Klenner, Cathcart, Belfield (vet), Kalokerinos are some names that come to mind.

And if you talk to them they use sodium ascorbate, becuase they know its the form that works best with the least biochemical disturbance.

However, I'm keeping my eye on liposomal vitamin C, as it works on a different concept, and could be useful. I have reservations right now, but am waiting to see the results of further research.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

To suggest that these people are idiots for using sodium ascorbate is akin to saying that doctors are right in not using it because they believe it can cause kidney stones.


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Reviving this thread with a question....(so sorry if I missed the answer, I did read the whole thread!)

What Vit C supplement would you suggest if you are trying to treat gum disease and trying o get pregnant? I know too much C can cause miscarriage.

I currently take Rainbow Light Prenatal One which contains 100 mg of ascorbic acid.

If I am not pregnant this month I will be having my gums cleaned out (sound fun??) right away. I really want to treat it, but want to do so safely.

Thanks for any help.


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## LadyButler (Sep 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom4tot*
Reviving this thread with a question....(so sorry if I missed the answer, I did read the whole thread!)

What Vit C supplement would you suggest if you are trying to treat gum disease and trying o get pregnant? I know too much C can cause miscarriage.

I currently take Rainbow Light Prenatal One which contains 100 mg of ascorbic acid.

If I am not pregnant this month I will be having my gums cleaned out (sound fun??) right away. I really want to treat it, but want to do so safely.

Thanks for any help.

Call me oblivious... but I have never heard about C causing miscarriage. I'm getting mixed info from Google... Mom- what's your take on that?


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

LB, I am looking for a link, but of course, can't find it. I will keep looking through my stuff. That is what I have read, that too much C can cause early m/c's.


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## Spencersmom (Apr 16, 2005)

I am glad this thread has been reactivated. I made my own sodium ascorbate with ascorbic acid and baking soda. I put it into water and YUCK!! The salty taste from the baking soda was making me gag. Gross. Anyone else having this trouble? I even tried mixing in some juice and it was still gross. Would it taste any better if I bought it already made?

Any advice, tips, suggestions would be greatly appreciated because I really want to take this.


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

As I understand Klinner had over 300 woman he had take SA everyday of their pregnacy, non of them had a mc while taking C.

The Russian Study from what I understand was poorly done.

I am courious to see what MT has to say about she knows about C and mc...

Mt, I havent heard of liposomal vitamin C, what is it? Will I learn more from google?


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

I read that Klenner paper when I got pregnant with my ds (right after an early miscarriage, oddly enough). I decided to take those doses of C. I sometimes took more than the 10 grams in the 3rd trimester, if I caught a cold and felt my body needed extra.

I have to say I had all of the results that were promised. I had an excellent pregnancy, easy UC labor and birth, a very bright, alert and healthy child and no (new) stretch marks. I think C in pregnancy is wonderful! This is the first I've heard of a connection to miscarriages. I have heard of a possible link between C deficiency and pre-eclampsia though.


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## LeslieB (Feb 17, 2006)

Is Sodium Ascorbate okay to take while nursing? If so, should the amount you take daily be different?


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## chasmyn (Feb 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spencersmom*
I am glad this thread has been reactivated. I made my own sodium ascorbate with ascorbic acid and baking soda. I put it into water and YUCK!! The salty taste from the baking soda was making me gag. Gross. Anyone else having this trouble? I even tried mixing in some juice and it was still gross. Would it taste any better if I bought it already made?

Any advice, tips, suggestions would be greatly appreciated because I really want to take this.

I buy the empty gelcaps and make my own capsules.


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## Spencersmom (Apr 16, 2005)

Thanks for the advice chasmyn. Could you please brief me on the process of making gelcaps? For example, where do I buy them? How many caps do you take at one time to get the correct dose? Any tips on how to fill them to get the most into them? I can surely take it this way! Do you think it affects absorbtion or anything?

TIA.


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## chasmyn (Feb 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spencersmom*
Thanks for the advice chasmyn. Could you please brief me on the process of making gelcaps? For example, where do I buy them? How many caps do you take at one time to get the correct dose? Any tips on how to fill them to get the most into them? I can surely take it this way! Do you think it affects absorbtion or anything?

TIA.

Cap m Quik makes a capsule filler and tamper: http://www.cap-m-quik.com/faq.html

I got mine for about $10 for the kit online (I forget where.) The link also talks about sizing of capsules. I got size 'O', which holds about 1/4 tsp of powder I believe. Since 1/4 tsp = 1000mg of the type of SA I get (Source Naturals), this is perfect for me.

The gelcaps can be gotten at any vitamin shop or HFS or online. The gelatin dissolves faster than the veggie caps, so are optimal, IMO.


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## Spencersmom (Apr 16, 2005)

Excellent info. Thanks a lot!


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## Annikate (Aug 2, 2005)

Will someone please tell me about bioflavanoids and vit. c?

I thought sodium ascorbate was the best thing to take (it has helped both myself and dds) but aren't you supposed to give vit. C w/bioflavanoids for proper absorption?

I'm confused. I switched dd2 to a brand w/bioflavanoids and I don't think it's having the same effect as the SA did.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

That is the theory of it, though I have found that SA "works" in acute situations without.

But I never take it without normally... I buy SA powder, citrus bioflavinoids powder, and mix with tangelo or orange juice.... and hot water. But you could use any of the bioflavinoids.


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

I have some bioflavonoid powder & its tastes baaaddddd. Are there any that taste good?


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Tastes fine with tangelo juice...


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## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

I found bioflavonoids in a caplet (NOW brand, I think I bought them at iherb.com).

MT, I read an old post of yours in another thread where you mentioned taking 1 part bioflavonoids to 5 parts SA. Is that still the ratio you recommend?

Also, if I'm taking high doses of SA to help with gut healing, is dividing it into 4 doses a day enough? Right now I'm taking 16 grams/day, and I think I will have to go close to 25 grams, or possible more, before I get to bowel tolerance.


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## comfybuns (Apr 19, 2006)

hey, could we get this thread sticky? I think it is such a great resource!


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:

The first sign of vitamin C deficiency is red gums where the collagen bonds have broken down, and the cells are going spongy, and they bleed when brushed. Vitamin C deficiency is THE primary cause for most gum disorders such as "gingivitis".

But if you have gum redness, then you can also be sure that the rest of your body inside is going the same way.
now I know what my body is missing!! thanks MT







is AA alright to take? we have nothing else except babys SA tabs from hylands, and I wanna keep them for him.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Just did a search for threads on Sodium Ascorbate so I could ask a stupid question, I know I read this thread before and don't recall this coming up, my apologies if it has been covered.

Can someone explain to me why the Sodium part of Sodium Ascorbate is not a problem? Is it beacuse it is "used" completely in the absorption of the Vit C?

I ask beacuse high blood pressure runs in my family of origin (though none for dh and I) and we do salt our food...

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me understand







.


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## Annikate (Aug 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *romans_mum*
now I know what my body is missing!! thanks MT







is AA alright to take? we have nothing else except babys SA tabs from hylands, and I wanna keep them for him.

They make baby sodium ascorbate tabs? I had no idea!


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Annikate*
They make baby sodium ascorbate tabs? I had no idea!

yup, they are a little expensive though.


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

just wanted to jump in and post our experience with sa. dd came down with her first cold yesterday and after reading the sage advice in this thread i started dosing her and myself (as a nursing mom) with sa. she had sniffles, sneezing a lot and was very out of sorts (but still her smiley self, even with snot coming out of her nose and watery eyes, poor thing!) 24 hours later she is doing much better, i can tell she feels better. yesterday afternoon she had some green mucus so i was a tad worried that a secondary bacterial infection was setting in, but i kept dosing both of us and this morning her nose is much less stuffy and the mucus clear and is no longer green. we licked this thing in a day and a half.

all i gotta say is







and thank you!!!

(also my allergy symptoms are much reduced since taking sa!)

by the way, if you live in an area where you have henry's markets...it's 25% off of all supplements right now so it's a great time to stock up!


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

ps...i second comfybuns vote to make this thread a sticky.

please?


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## Spencersmom (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *romans_mum*
yup, they are a little expensive though.

I would love to hear where you got these. Over the internet? From Hylands directly or from another source? How are they taken? Like Hylands teething tablets?

This would make taking Vit C so much easier for us. Thank you for the information.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spencersmom*
I would love to hear where you got these. Over the internet? From Hylands directly or from another source? How are they taken? Like Hylands teething tablets?

This would make taking Vit C so much easier for us. Thank you for the information.

I searched and found these:
http://www.hylands.com/products/vitaminc.php

http://www.childorganics.com/homeopathic-remedies.htm


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## Spencersmom (Apr 16, 2005)

Momtezuma Tuatara said:


> It depends on the child. I start at 250 mg per kg of body weight. 1 kg = 2.2 pounds. so your 32 lb one, is 14.5 kgs, x 250 mgs = 3,636 mgs over waking hours.QUOTE]
> 
> I was so excited about the Hylands but with having to give him ~ 3,600 mgs - that would be an awful lot of tablets and quite expensive.
> 
> For those of you with young ones - the Hylands are only $3.30 through the Frontier co-op. If you join and order with a group, having a $250 minimum, there are no shipping charges.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

I never use tablets.

Waste of time, and money.

Most kids will take sodium ascorbate.

I can't see how taking tablets makes it easier. Most kids I know much prefer having it as a drink.

Emergen-C is handy to have on hand, and kids love it.

But you might find that expensive too.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Peppermint*
Just did a search for threads on Sodium Ascorbate so I could ask a stupid question, I know I read this thread before and don't recall this coming up, my apologies if it has been covered.

Can someone explain to me why the Sodium part of Sodium Ascorbate is not a problem? Is it beacuse it is "used" completely in the absorption of the Vit C?

It is used not in the "absorption" but in the splitting of the ascorbate molecule. Sodium is the only ion that will do that.

Quote:

I ask beacuse high blood pressure runs in my family of origin (though none for dh and I) and we do salt our food...

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me understand







.
Why do people think that salt is the cause of high blood pressure?

Maybe stress runs in your family and that's the real problem.


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## cloak (Aug 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Peppermint*
Can someone explain to me why the Sodium part of Sodium Ascorbate is not a problem? Is it beacuse it is "used" completely in the absorption of the Vit C?

This site is about animals but it helps to answer your question. It is more likely the chloride part of table salt, sodium chloride, that causes high blood pressure problems and not the sodium.
http://www.belfield.com/article12.htm


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
Why do people think that salt is the cause of high blood pressure?

I *knew* when I wrote it that someone would throw me for a loop and say that







. I am still very much in the learning curve between trusting modern medicine and learning how things really are. Thanks for the article cloak!


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

:


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spencersmom*
I would love to hear where you got these. Over the internet? From Hylands directly or from another source? How are they taken? Like Hylands teething tablets?

This would make taking Vit C so much easier for us. Thank you for the information.

I got mine in a big hylands kit that I brought, but you can buy them seperatly at whole foods in the baby dept.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
I never use tablets.

Waste of time, and money.

Most kids will take sodium ascorbate.

I can't see how taking tablets makes it easier. Most kids I know much prefer having it as a drink.

Emergen-C is handy to have on hand, and kids love it.

But you might find that expensive too.

we use the tablets right now because ds is still under 1 and wont drink anything more than a mouthful of anything but breastmilk. So the tablets work for us. As he gets older, I'm definatly going to get powder and have emergen-c on hand in the car and other places.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
Why do people think that salt is the cause of high blood pressure?

because the medical world drills it into everyone. Dh and my FIL are constantly being told to watch their sodium intake, I don't care either way. If salt was a killer, people in the 1800's would have died from all the salt they injested from salted meats.


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## Annikate (Aug 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *romans_mum*
we use the tablets right now because ds is still under 1 and wont drink anything more than a mouthful of anything but breastmilk. So the tablets work for us. As he gets older, I'm definatly going to get powder and have emergen-c on hand in the car and other places.

My dds will drink the powder mixed in w/anything - even water. It's my new constipation remedy. I found out dd1's *bowel tolerance.*


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Annikate*
My dds will drink the powder mixed in w/anything - even water. It's my new constipation remedy. I found out dd1's *bowel tolerance.*

















thankfully ds has a low bowel tollerance, 3 tablets every 15 mins for an hour, and every 30mins after that, and usually within 2-3hrs hes at bowel tolerance. thankfully he doesnt get sick much


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## Ex Libris (Jan 31, 2004)

I've been giving ds Natural Factors Vit C chews (500 mg ascorbic/SA combination w/ bioflavonoids). Is this a bad idea? I worry about tooth enamel problems and the sugar in them, but it's an easy way to get the C in him. Should I try for powder or tablets instead?


----------



## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Natural Factor Chews are okay. I have them on hand all the time, because our youngest is a mechanic, and he will pop a couple of them easier at work, than messing with powder...

If expense is your worry, then powder is much cheaper.


----------



## granolamomma (Jul 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
Natural Factor Chews are okay. I have them on hand all the time, because our youngest is a mechanic, and he will pop a couple of them easier at work, than messing with powder...

If expense is your worry, then powder is much cheaper.

Thank God, because I scoured the area HFS looking for SA, and this was the only thing I could find (besides workers who kept trying to tell me I wanted Ester-C. No, I need Sodium Ascorbate. I think you're looking for the buffered C... NO I AM LOOKING FOR SODIUM ASCORBATE!







: )

Thanks so much for your help, MT. Can I send you a plate of cookies or something?


----------



## Spencersmom (Apr 16, 2005)

There must be a reason that SA is sold only in powder/crystal form. It seems that it would be easier for people to take if it were in capsule form (yes, caedmyn, I am looking into getting a capsule stuffing machine). Does anyone know the reason for this?

Momtezuma Tuatara - you said the chewables are okay but would there be a concern about tooth enamel if taken daily? Does it make a difference that it's buffered?

TIA.


----------



## shalymar (Mar 15, 2006)

I have learned so much from this thread, and am so grateful for all of you who know so much more than I do about this.

I have been through pertussis with my oldest son (now 22 mo) when he was 2 mo old. I know that it is treatable/survivable. Now my 8 wk old nephew has all the signs and symptoms, and my 10 wk old daughter has been around him.

I'm going tonight to Wild Oats to get them both the Hylands Vit C tablets, which contains SA. I can't tell if it's 25 or 30 mg according to their website but according to the previously posted dosing info, that's like 63 tablets a day?? (at about 14#)

Also, where is the nutrition/immunology thread that MT started? Could someone link to it?


----------



## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shalymar*
Also, where is the nutrition/immunology thread that MT started? Could someone link to it?

its a sticky at the top of the vaccination forum.


----------



## Ex Libris (Jan 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
Natural Factor Chews are okay. I have them on hand all the time, because our youngest is a mechanic, and he will pop a couple of them easier at work, than messing with powder...

If expense is your worry, then powder is much cheaper.

Whew! I just bought a new bottle and was afraid I'd need to toss it.









I'll second the offer to send you cookies, MT!


----------



## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spencersmom*
Momtezuma Tuatara - you said the chewables are okay but would there be a concern about tooth enamel if taken daily? Does it make a difference that it's buffered?

TIA.

If you want good strongth tooth enamel, (and to stop worrying about it) there are various things to consider.

Good strong enamel can withstand most things (except perhaps a direct hard crunch on an osso bucco bone







) and good strong hard enamel is got through making sure that all the minerals related to strong teeth are provided, like boron, silica, and all the other natural bone minerals.

A book basic book for much of this is *Your Vital Child* by Mark and Angela Stengler.

Beyond that, I'm a great fan of toothpicks....


----------



## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spencersmom*
There must be a reason that SA is sold only in powder/crystal form. It seems that it would be easier for people to take if it were in capsule form (yes, caedmyn, I am looking into getting a capsule stuffing machine). Does anyone know the reason for this?

I have a capsule stuffing machine. It's called "my fingers". Used to put dolomite in capsules, since dolomite is something that I gag on any other way.

1) I don't think there is an easier way of taking SA than in powder form, apart from maybe Liposomal, but that's expensive.

2) Vested interests come into play, and convenience. Many people, even in the natural remedy field, like expensive looking "hip" tablets in the shapes of bears, crocodiles, snakes or whatever, to make it more "fun" for kids to take and parents to give. I mean, if you are out in your SUV with Doc Martens, and the latest pram, who wants to be dealing with something as basic as powder?

It's much nicer to have a bottle of the latest, and greatest, don't you think?

Never mind that the "science" behind that latest and greatest might be junk.

3) As far as tablets go, Natural Factors have got a reasonable mix there. And lets face it. There are times when it is nicer to eat one's dark chocolate with almonds, than cutting a chunk off the 1 kg block.























Even I like things swept up at times.

But for everyday important grunge, powdered bioflavinoids and SA does me just fine.


----------



## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Don't you think cookies would be powder by the time they got here?









Besides the only cookies I like are a recipe called "cowpat cookies".










Try find that one.


----------



## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *romans_mum*
we use the tablets right now because ds is still under 1 and wont drink anything more than a mouthful of anything but breastmilk.

I used to express breastmilk (while the baby looked on incensed and almost apoplectic) and then I'd mix a few pinches of SA into that, and hand it back in a sippy cup.

It went down just fine, with that smug self satisfied face almost saying "how dare you take what was mine in the first place"

Course some babies might view the result as "polluted"....


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
I used to express breastmilk (while the baby looked on incensed and almost apoplectic) and then I'd mix a few pinches of SA into that, and hand it back in a sippy cup.

It went down just fine, with that smug self satisfied face almost saying "how dare you take what was mine in the first place"

Course some babies might view the result as "polluted"....









thats how roman sees it.....he wont even take expressed milk in a cup, if its not from the tap, hes not taking it







but he will willingly take his hylands tabs......so whatever works for us right now.


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## Yin Yang (Jul 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kundalini-Mama*
Question, I've been doing some research on bioflavonoids and I'm finding that they are abundant in citrus. Well, we take our SA in organic OJ once a day (or a bunch of small doses throughout the day if we are fighting something), so would that provide the 1:5 ratio needed of bio:SA?

I don't know if someone has already answered this, but I thought I'd reply anyway. I am pretty sure that bioflavonoids are in the white part of the skin of citrus fruit, not in the juice. So drinking OJ won't provide any bioflavonoids.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Yup.


----------



## treemom2 (Oct 1, 2003)

This thread is fascinating!!! I'm so glad MT is here to explain everything to us--especially to those of us who are new on our journey!!


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

You don't need me. Scour second hand book shops for books on vitamin C, and read everything you can get your hands on, then you will know the answers anyway...


----------



## guestmama9911 (May 24, 2005)

My brain hurts.


----------



## lyttlewon (Mar 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
Try chinese herbal remedies, then you will REALLY know what disgusting is.









My teas always tasted like gutter water. My mom's OMG smelled awful. She got prunes to sweeten the mix but I don't think it made a difference.


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## Just_Isabel (Mar 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yin Yang* 
I don't know if someone has already answered this, but I thought I'd reply anyway. I am pretty sure that bioflavonoids are in the white part of the skin of citrus fruit, not in the juice. So drinking OJ won't provide any bioflavonoids.

So can we just eat the white stuff?








*Off to start reading the huge nutrition 101 thread.*


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

technically you can eat any part of an orange or citrus fruits, my brother eats lemons like apples (i know....gross). But it can be bitter.


----------



## Just_Isabel (Mar 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *romans_mum* 
technically you can eat any part of an orange or citrus fruits, my brother eats lemons like apples (i know....gross). But it can be bitter.

I wish, but here it seems all citrus fruits come with a layer of wax.







: At least in the supermarket they do.


----------



## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just_Isabel* 
So can we just eat the white stuff?








*Off to start reading the huge nutrition 101 thread.*

Yes. I do.

And you can make a muffic recipe that makes a liquid base mix of oil(1/4 cup) , molasses (2 tbsps ~ ours is blackstrap, much stronger than USA...), (1/2 cup liquid h) honey, 1 egg, 1 large banana, and 1 orange skin and all... but not the pips. You blend that until thick and creamy then add dry ingreds= 3 cups bran, 1 cup wholewheat flours, 1 cup raisins (My kids hate raisins, so I leave them out) 1/2 cup wheat germ, 2 tsps baking powder, 2 tsps baking soda, and sometimes I add cinnamon.

12-18 muffins, well greased, better still lined. They can stick. 375 o F, 15 - 20 mins until firm to touch. If not lining, let cool a bit in the tins, or they might not come out well...

I defy anyone to be constipated after some of them.


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## chevy974 (Jan 6, 2002)

I have been using SA for a good while now but when I use it on my youngest who is 5 she always gets irritated in her private region. it will burn when she pees and her skin get real red. Have any of you had this problem at all.
thanks
amy


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

Are you using non-corn, non-GMO SA? If it doesn't say so, it's probably corn-derived, and GMO. Some people have problems with corn-based products, and would have a problem with SA because of that. Nutribiotic makes one that is corn-free and non-GMO.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

do you have a link for them, I can't eat corn.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just_Isabel* 
I wish, but here it seems all citrus fruits come with a layer of wax.







: At least in the supermarket they do.

yeah, that does play a factor........he used to pick them straight off the tree in the backyard (much to my mothers dismay, because she always tryed to save them for her lemon drink when she had a cold).


----------



## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chevy974* 
I have been using SA for a good while now but when I use it on my youngest who is 5 she always gets irritated in her private region. it will burn when she pees and her skin get real red. Have any of you had this problem at all.
thanks
amy

Yes, I've know two kids have this problem. I'm not sure why. Normally you only see this when ascorbic acid is used. What's she like if you give small doses with a meal?


----------



## chevy974 (Jan 6, 2002)

it doesnt seem to matter how much I give her and how it is given. Usually by the next morning her privates are sore and soon as I discontinue useing it it takes her a day to clear up.

I am using the NOW brand of sodium ascorbate could it be the brand?
This one says Vegetarian formula I dont see the Non GMO on it
thanks
amy


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## Yin Yang (Jul 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pookietooth* 
Are you using non-corn, non-GMO SA? If it doesn't say so, it's probably corn-derived, and GMO. Some people have problems with corn-based products, and would have a problem with SA because of that. Nutribiotic makes one that is corn-free and non-GMO.

What part of SA is corn-derived? The sodium or the ascorbic acid?
Or are there any other additives in it?
I am also using NOW brand.


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## nonniecita (Jul 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara* 
2) Vested interests come into play, and convenience. Many people, even in the natural remedy field, like expensive looking "hip" tablets in the shapes of bears, crocodiles, snakes or whatever, to make it more "fun" for kids to take and parents to give. I mean, if you are out in your SUV with Doc Martens, and the latest pram, who wants to be dealing with something as basic as powder?

























so true!
you're too funny!
I thought only the ancient egyptians used powdered forms


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

romans mum, here's the link for nutribiotic: http://www.nutribiotic.com/ (they make GSE too). I think it's the ascorbic acid that is corn derived. It's one of those allergy things they don't always tell you.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

thanks


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## Just_Isabel (Mar 5, 2006)

I asked for sodium ascorbate today at the pharmacy and at the health food store. All I got was the "she must be







" look twice.







And the guy at the pharmacy looked sodium ascorbate up and said it's not produced (or isn't sold, can't remember) where I live.









How bad is the asc. acid if I always salt my food anyway?


----------



## Joyful Mama (Jan 17, 2006)

i went to my health food store, and (as suspected), they didn't have it. they're going to call me today about whether they can order it or not.

my question is:
if sodium ascorbate is so much better, why don't even the health foods stores know about it/carry it? they only had calcium ascorbate and ascorbic acid, and the guy seemed confused when i was asking him about it.


----------



## Yin Yang (Jul 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *judahsmommy* 
i went to my health food store, and (as suspected), they didn't have it. they're going to call me today about whether they can order it or not.

my question is:
if sodium ascorbate is so much better, why don't even the health foods stores know about it/carry it? they only had calcium ascorbate and ascorbic acid, and the guy seemed confused when i was asking him about it.

my opinion would be that they only carry the products people actually buy. Not necesarilly what's good for you.


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yin Yang* 
my opinion would be that they only carry the products people actually buy. Not necesarilly what's good for you.









: Nobody around here (near Seattle) sells it either... the lady at the store was very helpful though







I told her all about SA and she's going to be ordering some online too (and is amazed that it's not sold in stores...).

love and peace.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

the SA is better absorbed i think..... its best to order it online or by phone. Most places dont sell it, like the pp said, only what people buy and SA isnt something everyone is rushing in to get.


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## mammom (Aug 13, 2004)

But WHY? I think that is the question... Why don't the health food stores of all places know it is better? Ours doesn't sell it either. I bought mine online (like the rest of us here) which is fine - I don't mind ordering it, but I am curious as to why the health food stores don't know to carry it.

Hmm.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Because health food stores are as "amenable" to the prattle of salespeople as anyone else. They want the latest, and greatest, and are as gullible as the rest of the populace. I've explained it till I'm blue in the face, and given them all the texts, but... the eyes just glaze over, and then you get "but its what the customer wants..."

So you have all the problems that any "system" brings with it. There is as much snake oil purveyance in the natural health movement, as there is in the allopathic drug-pushers system.


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## Spy (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara* 
I've explained it till I'm blue in the face, and given them all the texts, but... the eyes just glaze over, and then you get "but its what the customer wants..."

Wouldn't _you_ and the rest of the SA seekers be a part of _the customer_?? Or is it a theoretical _customer_ who doesn't exist in nature, up there with _herd immunity_ and the health and _well being of the population_, that is supposed to improve from making individuals less healthy?







:


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## Just_Isabel (Mar 5, 2006)

And wouldn't people buy it if they had it? HFS have a bunch of products I have no idea what they're for exactly, and then they have a bunch of leaflets for many of the product lines.
If the stores had SA and the sellers told the customers that it's just a different form of Vit C that is more easily absorbed by the body people should buy it, no?


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Well, actually, I wouldn't buy it if Health Food Stores had it, because their mark up is so high. Why should I pay 124.00 for a kilo, when I can get it for 64.00 somewhere else?


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## Jeni_Houston (Oct 11, 2005)

MT, I've been reading a ton of your posts today about Vit C and illness. Thank you for all the info. My 4.5 month old son has a cough, sneezing, diarrhea and maybe a very low fever. He is EBF. I have been taking about 8-10,000 mg of SA Vit C /day for the last 2 days (since he got the cough). Should I be taking more? Should I be giving some to him also mixed with BM? My fear is of course the worst case that it may be pertussis. It most likely is just a cold. What do you suggest?


----------



## newcastlemama (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just_Isabel* 
I asked for sodium ascorbate today at the pharmacy and at the health food store. All I got was the "she must be







" look twice.







And the guy at the pharmacy looked sodium ascorbate up and said it's not produced (or isn't sold, can't remember) here in Austria.









How bad is the asc. acid if I always salt my food anyway?

What about ordering online?


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## chasmyn (Feb 23, 2004)

I have a question about the half life of SA? Um, if I put the crystals into liquid, how long will it last - for example, in a small cup of juice, does it lose potency if I let it sit out? I can never get my 13 month old to drink more than a few sips at a time and right now he needs the extra C (I am endeavoring to take my optidose but don't always make it, as it seems to be 23 grams, and it is not easy to get 23 grams into me throughout the day - I literally have to set a timer and take it every hour.) And yes, he is BF, but I feel like he needs extra, and it wouldn't hurt his bowels to have that extra since he tends toward constipation.


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara* 
Well, actually, I wouldn't buy it if Health Food Stores had it, because their mark up is so high. Why should I pay 124.00 for a kilo, when I can get it for 64.00 somewhere else?

Shipping

Though our healthy food store doesnt mark stuff up that much.


----------



## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

Bronson Labs is going to have a buy one get one free on SA next month.

Well on items 40 50 51 84 245

Item 50B is SA

Coupon Code #61001


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

momto l&a, do you have a link for that?


----------



## Yin Yang (Jul 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pookietooth* 
momto l&a, do you have a link for that?

http://www.bronsonvitamins.com/app/s...tm?&item_id=50

it's very expencive SA. 16oz is for $18 so even with buy one get one free it's still more than NOW company has it for.
actually I take it back - with buy one get one free you do save few dollars.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

my understanding of why excess sodium can lead to high blood pressure is because it will make you thirsty, lead to you drinking more and having too much fluid in your body. no? at least, that's the way the dr on Oprah explained it
















but I know that's not an issue w/ SA. just table salt.


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

Item 50B is *2.2 lbs* of SA. Its the best buy I have found on SA whenever it was I went looking for the best bargain.

I cant stand the taste of NOW brand of SA. uke:


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## heket (Nov 18, 2003)

Comparing the serving sizes and info on both labels, it seems like you'd get more with the Bronson SA. Bronson's label says approximately 1/4 tsp. yield 1g, while Now's says 1/2 tsp. yields 1.69g. So 1/4 of Now would = 0.845g. Not to mention that the sodium in Bronson's is lower, since that seemed to be of a concern for some.

Looks like I'll have to get some next month! I hope the bit of Vit. C we have for now will carry us through...

momto l&a: thanks for the code!


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## Yin Yang (Jul 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heket* 

momto l&a: thanks for the code!

















:


----------



## nonniecita (Jul 23, 2005)

yes, thanks for the code








I just ordered 2.2 lbs today







but I'll definately take advantage of b1g1 free.
If you check APS (automatic shipment) at checkout, you get 20% off every order! You can set shipment at 30, 60, or 90 days, it's a good deal.








Michelle


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## moonshine (Dec 5, 2002)

Is the Bronsons truly SA? It seems that it says it is ascorbic acid, or does the non-acidic part mean that it is SA?


----------



## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonshine* 
Is the Bronsons truly SA? It seems that it says it is ascorbic acid, or does the non-acidic part mean that it is SA?

Soluble fine crystals. One furnished scoopful, approx. 1/4 teaspoon, contains approximately 1,000 mg. vitamin C and 124 mg. sodium in the form of sodium ascorbate. This product has little or no taste.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momto l&a* 
Shipping

Though our healthy food store doesnt mark stuff up that much.

Nah, its landed here at abt $40.00 and they sell it wholesale at $64, and then the shops put a whopping markup and sell it for over $100.00.

It's when you've been to China and see what some of these things we pay mega-bucks for here, go for over there, that you realise that the prices we pay for things is because it is, because X gets paid for handing it to Y, but the problem is that if the mark-up is profit~40% there comes a point where you need to be a millionaire to buy it.


----------



## chasmyn (Feb 23, 2004)

I've been meaning to ask a couple of questions.

A little history: I have malabsorption, loose stools, floaty.

I have been making every attempt to take SA to optidose (with bioflavinoids) as much as possible. Trouble is, my optidose seems to ne higher than I am able to take. Rather than getting watery diarrhea, my stool actually becomes formed. Still floaty, but formed. One time I thought I made my optidose at 23 grams. Daily I take 3 grams an hour as long as I am awake, so probably from 10a-10p. I might miss a dose here and there, so let's guess that daily I am taking at least 21 - 24 grams. Still no watery D.

I seem to remember reading that a body cannot absorb more than 1 gram per hour, so any more is a waste. Is this true? If so, am I wasting my SA taking 3 grams per hour, and also if true, how can I get enough in me to reach my optidose?

Please please please help! I really want this to work, I can see by the improved stool already that it makes a huge difference for me, so am I getting the whole 24 grams I'm taking or is there a better way?


----------



## Deborah (Dec 6, 2002)

This is interesting, because I tried to find my optimum dose and when I got to 16 grams a day and still no runs, I gave up. I don't have an immune difficiency, so it just didn't make sense that I needed that much. I think there may be a few people who just don't get the runs from SA. I have settled down to 3 or 4 grams a day, with much higher doses if I am stressed or think I'm getting sick.

I thought bm was supposed to float? One of those things I always get confused about.

Deborah


----------



## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

See now, I thought BMs weren't supposed to float. Means improper digestion of fat or something.


----------



## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

I've read that BM's ARE supposed to float and that they AREN'T supposed to float. I basically figure as long as they're frequent and not constipated it probably doesn't matter whether they float or not









I've had odd experiences with SA to bowel tolerance...I'll take a lot (25-35 grams) a day for several days without reaching bowel tolerance. Then I'll suddenly reach bowel tolerance at a lower dose (15-20 grams). I'm not sure if my body is healing some while I'm taking the large doses so at some point it doesn't need as much, or if it take a while to "saturate" my body and then I need less to maintain that level. I don't have immune problems but am trying to fight a candida overgrowth, so apparently my body needs a lot of vitamin C.

chasmyn--I'm certain the body can absorb more than 1 gram/hour. When C is used to treat diseases, a lot more than that is given (and apparently necessary). I currently take 2.5 grams every 2 hours (too hard to remember to take some every hour)...I don't get to bowel tolerance with 1 gram/hour, so it seems that my body utilizes more than a gram an hour.


----------



## Yin Yang (Jul 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momto l&a* 
Bronson Labs is going to have a buy one get one free on SA next month.

Well on items 40 50 51 84 245

Item 50B is SA

Coupon Code #61001

I am not sure if i am doing something wrong, but the coupon isn't working







Do you have to be registred with them or something like that?


----------



## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

I just went to order and I cant get the coupon to work either.
They sent out a flyer in the spring with all the specials for the year and this was the October one. Have no clue whats going on.


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

UPDATE

I just checked on the coupon and it hasnt been activated on line yet.It will be in 24 hours.

Or you can place the order over the phone.


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## nonniecita (Jul 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momto l&a* 
UPDATE

I just checked on the coupon and it hasnt been activated on line yet.It will be in 24 hours.

Or you can place the order over the phone.

Is it a once yearly kinda thing, or do they have this special regularly (for SA)?
Thanks!


----------



## Ex Libris (Jan 31, 2004)

I've got a question about when to take SA and how much. I've noticed some of you talking about taking it every hour or so until bowel tolerance. Is this something you do every day? Or do you only do it once to determine the proper dose? I've just been guessing about 6g a day, which I split up into an a.m. dose and a p.m. dose.


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonniecita* 
Is it a once yearly kinda thing, or do they have this special regularly (for SA)?
Thanks!

I havent seen it before in the 3+ years I have been buying from them.

They sent that coupon out so long ago they probably hope that everybody lost it by now


----------



## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momto l&a* 
UPDATE

I just checked on the coupon and it hasnt been activated on line yet.It will be in 24 hours.

Or you can place the order over the phone.

Coupon is now working. Thank you!


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## nonniecita (Jul 23, 2005)

thanks, momtol&a!
Just wondering though...I put (4) 2.2 pound containers of SA in my cart, but it only showed one for free...did the coupon say there was a limit? Hummm, I'll call them in the morning


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## Annikate (Aug 2, 2005)

Thanks for the coupon tips! I just ordered more last month - - they had a 1/2 off sale & free shipping. Guess I should take advantage of this deal too though.


----------



## Yin Yang (Jul 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chevy974* 
I have been using SA for a good while now but when I use it on my youngest who is 5 she always gets irritated in her private region. it will burn when she pees and her skin get real red. Have any of you had this problem at all.
thanks
amy

I wanted to say that I have that problem too now.







: I thought it was yeast but it gets so much worse after using SA! I was using NOW brand so I wonder if it's an allergic reaction. As soon as I stop it goes away.


----------



## chevy974 (Jan 6, 2002)

yeah soon as she stops it goes away also. I am gonna have to try a different kind i think

amy


----------



## Just_Isabel (Mar 5, 2006)

How fast does your body (bowels







) let you know when you overdose on vit C/Sodium Ascorbate?







And does the Vit C make pee go neon?


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## mombh (May 6, 2003)

O.K. first forgive me if this has been answered before but I tried to re-read the thread at 2am and now am confused







:








Ihave SA from bronson labs and add it to o.j.diluted w/water and meand kids drink it down no problem....but .....bioflavanoid powder is ...well...,yuck







: soooo, my question is can we get bioflaanoids from another source?
do we have to take it at the same time as SA???
when we are feelind sick and up our dose of SA do we up our dose of bioflavanoids or can we just forgo that for a few days???
thanks to whoever answers me and if it has been answered maybe just refer me to the page of the post








awsome thread


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## Ex Libris (Jan 31, 2004)

I take bioflavonoid pills--approx 1 g to every 5g SA. The pills I've got are each 1g, so in the morning when I take 2-3 g of my SA, I just cut the biofl. pill in half and figure it's close enough (and I always take it at the same time). I take more biofl. as I take more SA. It may not be as absorbable as powder, but it's the only form I've been able to find.


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## PapaT (Oct 13, 2006)

Don't know about the neon urine! That usually comes with the water soluable vitamins, such as the B group, because they're made with flourescent ingredients. Sorry can't help you more on that. http://cforyourself.com/

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just_Isabel* 
How fast does your body (bowels







) let you know when you overdose on vit C/Sodium Ascorbate?

Depends on how much your body needs at the time. Have a read of Cathcart's site:

Quote:

"In 1970, I discovered that the sicker a patient was, the more ascorbic acid he would tolerate by mouth before diarrhea was produced."
I've taken 40 GRAMS at one dose and NO watery stools what so ever. Other times I can take less and I'm running. The beauty of SA is that if you can taste the saltiness in your half a cup of water, then you probably are taking too much at that particular moment. If you can't taste it in the half cup of fresh water, then possibly it isn't enough. Keep adding little by little to your water until you just start to taste the saltiness... That's your cut off dose. However other times your body will need more, then another time less. The need is based on many factors. http://www.mall-net.com/cathcart/titrate.html
If you can get C-stix, then all the better. Once you measure urinary spillover, then you know your tissues have saturation levels. If I had C-stix I'd be better able to plan my day, not worrying about bowel titration at the wrong moment!







the_1982_letter_on_vitamin_c_and_cancer


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

Wow, I've read through this thread with a great deal of interest. I've been wanting to get some C into my kids, and now I see that I should.

So, here's what I've learned. SA powder is the best and cheapest way to go, but the Natural Factors C500 fruit chews are an acceptable and convenient alternative.

My question (and please forgive if this seems way obvious to all you who already use the SA powder): If I order the SA powder, what I imagine getting is a box/bottle of, well...powder. People talk about giving so-and-so many grams, but how exactly do you measure that out? By the teaspoon? Do you weigh it somehow? A pinch?

I'd be giving it to a 125 lb adult (me), a 40lb 3yo, and a 55lb 7yo.

Thanks again for this very informative discussion, especially to MT!


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## Deborah (Dec 6, 2002)

I keep a 1/3 teaspoon measure in my container (I scoop some into a smaller container that I can keep out on the counter). 1/3 t. is roughly equivalent to 1 gram, according to the container. Different brands may measure slightly differently.
Deborah


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## lyttlewon (Mar 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deborah* 
I keep a 1/3 teaspoon measure in my container (I scoop some into a smaller container that I can keep out on the counter). 1/3 t. is roughly equivalent to 1 gram, according to the container. Different brands may measure slightly differently.
Deborah

Is there a gram per pound recommended starting dosage? I haven't read the whole thread...


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## Annikate (Aug 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama* 
My question (and please forgive if this seems way obvious to all you who already use the SA powder): If I order the SA powder, what I imagine getting is a box/bottle of, well...powder. People talk about giving so-and-so many grams, but how exactly do you measure that out? By the teaspoon? Do you weigh it somehow? A pinch?

If you order from Bronson, they include a scoop which equals 1 gram. Your pharmacy could probably give you one too.


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## phishers3 (Sep 17, 2006)

I am sorry if this is a sad repeat but would this be the same for say, Hylands vit C tabs? or another type of vit C - like a liquid? for an infant...4 mo.?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara* 
It depends on the child. I start at 250 mg per kg of body weight.

1 kg = 2.2 pounds. so your 32 lb one, is 14.5 kgs, x 250 mgs = 3,636 mgs over waking hours.

24 lbs divided by 2.2= 9.9 x 250 = 2,475 mgs over waking hours. Obviously I don't worry about exact numbers. 1,000 mgs = 1/4 level tsp. so I eyeball it from there.

If that doesn't bring results, I up the dose.

Our youngest needs almost double the dose the oldest needs.

For my husband it certainly is. He was able to drop all antihistamine medication once he got onto a decent dose of vitamin c.


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

Is that 250 mg per Kg also true of adults?


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Phisher, I don't use tablets ever, for children under 3 years.

Pookie, yes and no. It depends on the immune system, but its a starting dose.

Error and trial, you know?


----------



## phishers3 (Sep 17, 2006)

Thank you







I take it the liquid is the preferred method? ??
I need to find a natur/homeopath around here!







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara* 
Phisher, I don't use tablets ever, for children under 3 years.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Some kids like to annoy parents by choking on tablets


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## phishers3 (Sep 17, 2006)

Oh I get that totally - I just wasn't thinking right off the cuff when I wrote the original post... I was on my way out ther door trying to read this super long thread!!







and trying to figure out what would be the best path to tak e with DS - I'll definately wait until I get it figured out... no tabs for DS!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara* 
Some kids like to annoy parents by choking on tablets


----------



## guestmama9911 (May 24, 2005)

What does it mean if my bowels won't even tolerate 1,000 mg? Wrong brand?


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## chevy974 (Jan 6, 2002)

Can any of yo tell me which SA you buy from Bronsons I see 2 which one is best for children. I have to try a different one the NOW brand bothers DD

thanks
amy


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

Thanks for the info about scooping out the powder. I was having a hard time visualizing that...

But now - when I went to the Bronson site, every Vitamin C product says, "Vitamin C, also known as ascorbic acid...." So which one is the sodium ascorbate, then?


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara* 
Some kids like to annoy parents by choking on tablets









thats not a hazard with the hylands ones, they disolve instantly


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## kellybelly (Jul 17, 2004)

I'm interested in reading more about making your own Sodium Ascorbate by mixing Ascorbic Acid powder with baking soda (sodium bicarb). What I did before (recommended by The Perfect Prescription For Your Teeth book) was mix 1 tsp of the ascorbic acid with 1/2 tsp of baking soda--then add an inch of water and letting it fizz, then adding 4-8 oz more water. Supposedly non-acid, and I've never had a problem drinking it that way. It tastes like flat mineral water.

But I read here earlier to mix it in a 1-1 ratio? Thats 1/2 tsp more baking soda than what I've been doing. Is that a problem? Am I not making proper SA, or is it an unbalanced mix? Thanks in advance!!


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## Ex Libris (Jan 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chevy974* 
I have been using SA for a good while now but when I use it on my youngest who is 5 she always gets irritated in her private region. it will burn when she pees and her skin get real red. Have any of you had this problem at all.
thanks
amy

I've recently noticed this in myself--it makes me itchy. I've used several brands and it happens with all of them. And of course I just ordered 5 lbs of it from Bronson's!


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## Swirly (May 20, 2006)

Kellybelly - I made this post before about the chemistry of mixing sodium bicarb and ascorbic acid. One thing I didn't note was that in order to get the reaction to occur, it needs to be done in a solvent (water), but then it is necessarily diluted and needs to be dried, which is probably beyond what most of us can achieve at home. I guess when you m ix them dry, the reaction theoretically occurs in your belly, but with the pH being so low there, I amnot sure how it would proceed or if it would. Hmm, I should look into this further.

This is the run down on the correct ratios from the chemical standpoint though.

The ratio is one to one, but you must do it based upon molecular weight, as it is a molar ratio you are attempting to achieve.

Thus, you would use one mole of ascorbic acid to one mole of sodium bicarbonate.

Molecular weight NaHCO3 (sodium bicarb) = 84. g/mol
Molecular weight C6H8O6 (ascorbic acid) = 176.13 g/mol

To make one mole of sodium ascorbate, you would use 84 grams of sodium bicarb and 176 grams of the acid, for a total of 260.13 grams. The reaction yields 1 mole of sodium ascorbate, one mole of water (18 grams), and one mole of carbon dioxide (44 grams), so your total sodium ascorbate would be 198.13 grams.

So, if you were trying to make, say, a 100 gram solution, you would use approximately 32.3 grams sodium bicarb and 67.7 grams of ascorbic acid. (which is close to the 2:1 ratio mentioned by PP) The densities of the two components differs significantly enough that using simply a dry measuring system (instead of weights) would yield an inexact ratio unless you did the proper calculations and made corrections for that difference


----------



## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Wow Swirly, you're making my head







:







Cool info.


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## JodiM (Mar 22, 2003)

What a awesome thread!

Now, that I've read the whole thing~ I have a few questions.

The ratio is 1:5, for adults AND children, correct?

Also, is the Herpasin (sp?) the same as the bioflavnoids (sp?) ?

MT~ If you're still reading this thread, I know I read somewhere that you take magnesium for a flipping heart, do you have another thread/link you can point me to for it? I'm having that problem alot lately.


----------



## Ex Libris (Jan 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JodiM* 
I know I read somewhere that you take magnesium for a flipping heart, do you have another thread/link you can point me to for it? I'm having that problem alot lately.

I don't have a link, but I do know about taking mag for heart palps. I went to many doctors, including a cardiologist, took mulitiple tests, and they couldn't find anything wrong with my heart. Then I read here on MDC about taking mag supplements for palpitations. Sure enough, that was the problem (so much for medical wisdom). My heart jumps began shortly after giving birth, and it's obvious to me now that I'm losing too much mag through bfing, so I take about 800-900 mg a day. If I need more, my heart will tell me and I pop one. I tried many kinds of mag, but I've found that the cheaper mag oxide works just fine. Be careful with mag citrate--it's a serious laxative! Find your opti-dose in the same way as with SA, until you reach bowel tolerance. There's a great book that'll tell you more: _The Miracle of Magnesium_ by Carolyn Dean.

Good luck!


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## mombh (May 6, 2003)

O.K. Iv'e read that some babies get a reaction from SA in the diaper area....my question is,...is it possible for a child to be allergic to SA? like break out in hives??and if yes could this occur after taking it for some time or would it be immediate???ds broke out in hives today and itcould be from many different things , but I am hoping to rule SA out first , Ihave given him SA before and he had no reaction but today he broke out in hives about 1/2hour after drinking some SA.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Swirly, I don't need to be precise. A 2 to one ratio would be all I need to know.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JodiM* 
What a awesome thread!

Now, that I've read the whole thing~ I have a few questions.

The ratio is 1:5, for adults AND children, correct?

Also, is the Herpasin (sp?) the same as the bioflavnoids (sp?) ?

I don't know. I just use citrus bioflavinoids.

Quote:

MT~ If you're still reading this thread, I know I read somewhere that you take magnesium for a flipping heart, do you have another thread/link you can point me to for it? I'm having that problem alot lately.
I think you may find something on that in the nutrition thread up the top. The book mentioned is great. But a google search will find you a lot of information.

My husband has also commented that he is finding it a lot easier to get through a lot of physical work having been on magnesium for some time now. Far less cramp and "stiffness" in the morning as well.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mombh* 
O.K. Iv'e read that some babies get a reaction from SA in the diaper area....my question is,...is it possible for a child to be allergic to SA? like break out in hives??and if yes could this occur after taking it for some time or would it be immediate???ds broke out in hives today and itcould be from many different things , but I am hoping to rule SA out first , Ihave given him SA before and he had no reaction but today he broke out in hives about 1/2hour after drinking some SA.

short answer.... who knows? Most people go through life being able to take antibiotics, but they will kill me.

The only way to find out, if you can't pin it to anything else, is to leave it a while, and try a small dose some time in the future if you wish to.

My son's girlfriend had an anaphylactic response while eating cereal one morning, which resulted in me having to take her to the local doctor and an ambulance trip to hospital. No-one could pin it down, she was assigned an epi-pen and for weeks wouldn't touch cereal. Eventually she tried it again, and was fine. The only other clue was that on the jacket she was wearing at breakfast, I found a substantial quantity of yellow pollen (she worked in a flower shop).

question, ~ what caused her anaphylaxis?









She's never had another attack since.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

the reaction could be to corn, some SA formulas have a corn derived formula, a few pages back was a link for a non corn non GMO SA


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *romans_mum* 
the reaction could be to corn, some SA formulas have a corn derived formula, a few pages back was a link for a non corn non GMO SA

Oh yikes! I missed that. I just ordered some and I have no idea what it's from.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pookietooth* 
Are you using non-corn, non-GMO SA? If it doesn't say so, it's probably corn-derived, and GMO. Some people have problems with corn-based products, and would have a problem with SA because of that. Nutribiotic makes one that is corn-free and non-GMO.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *chevy974* 
I have been using SA for a good while now but when I use it on my youngest who is 5 she always gets irritated in her private region. it will burn when she pees and her skin get real red. Have any of you had this problem at all.
thanks
amy


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pookietooth* 
romans mum, here's the link for nutribiotic: http://www.nutribiotic.com/ (they make GSE too). I think it's the ascorbic acid that is corn derived. It's one of those allergy things they don't always tell you.


heres the posts about the corn derived SA and a link to the other type


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## Ex Libris (Jan 31, 2004)

Thank you!


----------



## livinzoo (Dec 31, 2005)

It looks like the bronson ones are half Ascorbic acid and half sodium ascorbate. Is that okay?


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## mombh (May 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara* 
short answer.... who knows? Most people go through life being able to take antibiotics, but they will kill me.

The only way to find out, if you can't pin it to anything else, is to leave it a while, and try a small dose some time in the future if you wish to.

My son's girlfriend had an anaphylactic response while eating cereal one morning, which resulted in me having to take her to the local doctor and an ambulance trip to hospital. No-one could pin it down, she was assigned an epi-pen and for weeks wouldn't touch cereal. Eventually she tried it again, and was fine. The only other clue was that on the jacket she was wearing at breakfast, I found a substantial quantity of yellow pollen (she worked in a flower shop).

question, ~ what caused her anaphylaxis?









She's never had another attack since.


thanks!! Igave him some again today ...and all is fine, so it was probably something else


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## anba (Jun 3, 2006)

Is it OK to take Vit. C and Bioflavonoids while pregnant? If so, how much is OK? I imagine Vit C during pregnancy would be OK, but just checking on the bioflavonoids.

Thanks


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## Yin Yang (Jul 9, 2003)

Interesting article about SA and SIDS. http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorba...v8-n4-p229.htm


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## shalymar (Mar 15, 2006)

i have a friend who is a registered dietician, and I asked her about Vit C megadosing. She said that above 90 mg, you just pee it out. When I asked her, "What about when people find a variable bowel tolerance of anywhere from 6-40 g/day depending on stressors, and the (seems to me) super fast half-life of Vit C of 30 mins? And isn't Vit C super critical in fighting infection in some way?" she responded, "I'm just not comfortable with Vit C megadosing. Regardless of whether the bowels can tolerate it or not. You'd be far, far better off with a plant-based diet, running over with dark, leafy greens and orange veggies. Your body will absorb what it needs and you won't be peeing out the supplements you swallow. "

Is she just uninformed? What resources can I look to for info to discuss further with her?


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shalymar* 
Is she just uninformed? What resources can I look to for info to discuss further with her?

That's a good question. I wonder if she is someone that would take any resources, that are not provided to her via her healthcare facility, seriously. KWIM? I know people who have been told some pretty sad things by dieticians.


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## shalymar (Mar 15, 2006)

I don't know. :\ I've always considered my circle of friends as people who think outside the box, but I'm starting to feel like I'm the wackiest one by far!







Maybe some resources that would be considred reliable by establishment types?


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shalymar* 
i have a friend who is a registered dietician, and I asked her about Vit C megadosing. She said that above 90 mg, you just pee it out.

Has she tested it out? Pretty simple really. You use C-stix, which picks up urinary spill over when the body has enough.








90 mg














Yeah, she's ignorant all right. On a good day, with no stress I get urinary spill over at 5 grams.

Quote:

When I asked her, "What about when people find a variable bowel tolerance of anywhere from 6-40 g/day depending on stressors, and the (seems to me) super fast half-life of Vit C of 30 mins? And isn't Vit C super critical in fighting infection in some way?" she responded, "I'm just not comfortable with Vit C megadosing. Regardless of whether the bowels can tolerate it or not. You'd be far, far better off with a plant-based diet, running over with dark, leafy greens and orange veggies. Your body will absorb what it needs and you won't be peeing out the supplements you swallow. "

Is she just uninformed? What resources can I look to for info to discuss further with her?
Are there not book titles on this thread? I must check. If I've forgotten to put them here, that's very remiss of me.

There wouldn't however, be any point in discussing any books with her, until she had read them herself. Even then she probably would deny their value to defend her uninformed beliefs.

If and when she gets her head around the chemistry and biochemical principles of why we need more than 90mg Vit C a day, then she might be worth discussing it with, but by the same token, if you have read all the books there are on vitamin C by then, you won't need to discuss the issue with anyone.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

While I check here's a suggestion.

Go to either Amazon.com. or abebooks.com and put Vitamin C in the subject field, and at Amazon.com click on books. Press go, see what comes up and read the reviews.

Dr Levy's two books are the most recent place to start though...


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Also do a google search for same. It will take me a while to see if I've put books on this thread. It's rather long


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Extract:

"FRUIT and vegetables are not as good for us as they were 50 years ago according to a scientific study. Modern farming methods mean that the amount of essential minerals in the food we eat has been reduced alarmingly. There is up to 75 per cent less calcium and 93 per cent less copper in fruit and vegetables, the study says. Runner beans, which used to contain a significant amount of sodium - vital for the working of the nerves and muscles - now have almost no traces of it at all.

The levels of other important minerals such as iron, phosphorous, potassium and magnesium have also plummeted. Nutritionist David Thomas said he was 'astonished' by his findings. 'Minerals have been recognised as being very important to our physiology, but the general public has no idea that there has been this dramatic decline in the levels of such elements in our food,' he said. His research allowed that broccoli has 75 per cent less calcium, which is essential for building healthy body and teeth. Carrots have 75 per cent less magnesium, which protects against heart attacks, asthma and kidney stones.

Spinach, famous as a good source of iron, was found to have 60 per cent less iron than it did 50 years ago. Mr Thomas said he believed the reduction in the mineral content in food was a result of modern farm methods which use massive amounts of fertiliser on the soil. The fertilisers encourage growth, but this is at the expense of the minerals which are important for good health. Mr Thomas said: 'We are made up of these substances. If they're deficient then the body cannot cope as well as it would otherwise.'

Daily Mail (UK), March 5, 2001


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cyneburh* 
Oh yeah... forgot to add...

There's also the issue of doctors trying to give you your entire dose in one shot. I spent 5 weeks in the hospital with my last pregnancy and finally just snuck in some SA because the hospital staff seemed to think that 500 mg a day was a lot (I had to remind the nurses most days that I wasn't getting the 'standard dose' of 250 mg at which point they looked at their notes and when, "Oh... I'll go get another for you.") and they gave it at a standard time each day. They didn't even think to spread those pills out throughout the day. And they had no clue that there were multiple forms of vitamin C much less had ever heard of sodium ascorbate.

I found it highly ironic that you're supposed to get healthy in the hospital yet there I was fighting to maintain my health because of the poor diet they provided.

Don't you find it equally ironic that antibiotics are worked out at so many mgs per kg of body weight spread out over the day, yet no-one has bothered to look at vitamins in the same light? Maybe they assume it comes naturally in spaced doses with hospital food.







: which is garbage...

And when you are talking about vitamin C as a toxin mopper upper, why would 90 mg even touch more than your tongue tip?


----------



## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

MT (or anyone else who knows)--do you know why large doses of vitamin C cause major gas & bloating? I mostly take sodium ascorbate to almost bowel tolerance but sometimes I just get tired of the horrible gas so I don't take it for a while..


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

Registered dieticians tend to be very conservative with diet and supplements. How much has she really read about it? Most people are ill-informed about it. Also, a plant-based diet is deficient in many nutrients, including B12 and true vitamin A. And Omega 3 fatty acids are awfully hard to come by on it, unless you eat lots of flax seed meal (which is hard to digest) and certain leafy greens like purslane.


----------



## Spy (Aug 22, 2006)

OK, my turn to ask dumb questions









Patient: 5 year old more or less healthy individual, roughly 25 kg
Ailment: Cold, pretty much a snotty nose (clear, not green or yellow), but lasting for a week now, which is rather unusual for the said individual and getting annoying
Vit C form: Chewable tablets, 60% SA/40% AA

He's been on 10 grams a day for the last couple days (and a little less before when we thought it's getting better), which is even more than the quoted 250 mg/kg. He is NOT dying from diphtheria, so I am not sure if I should give him more - it's just a cold, and not even too bad one. OTOH he has NOT reached bowel (in)tolerance point at 10 g/day, and I am not sure how much it can take him... I have a funny feeling, a lot more







. So - what am I doing wrong? Not enough? Too much? Wrong stuff?







:


----------



## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caedmyn* 
MT (or anyone else who knows)--do you know why large doses of vitamin C cause major gas & bloating? I mostly take sodium ascorbate to almost bowel tolerance but sometimes I just get tired of the horrible gas so I don't take it for a while..

I back off my dose to one step behind the gas stage otherwise everyone can hear me coming and going, and I don't have a musical one like a steam train.







So while I might feel a bit rumbly, it doesn't get to the stuff where I toot.


----------



## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spy* 









OK, my turn to ask dumb questions









Patient: 5 year old more or less healthy individual, roughly 25 kg
Ailment: Cold, pretty much a snotty nose (clear, not green or yellow), but lasting for a week now, which is rather unusual for the said individual and getting annoying
Vit C form: Chewable tablets, 60% SA/40% AA

He's been on 10 grams a day for the last couple days (and a little less before when we thought it's getting better), which is even more than the quoted 250 mg/kg. He is NOT dying from diphtheria, so I am not sure if I should give him more - it's just a cold, and not even too bad one. OTOH he has NOT reached bowel (in)tolerance point at 10 g/day, and I am not sure how much it can take him... I have a funny feeling, a lot more







. So - what am I doing wrong? Not enough? Too much? Wrong stuff?







:
















You're not doing anything wrong. It's just that you haven't quite worked out what it is yet. Wisdom is wonderful, but sometimes it comes with hindsight, not with foresight.

Um... have you looked at this?

http://www9.health.gov.au/cda/Source/Rpt_3.cfm

You need to click on the top link, then under the button, click on select disease for month and year, and then on the drop down menu, select pertussis.

Because... Um... Australia this year, has rather a lot of it...


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## Spy (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara* 
You're not doing anything wrong. It's just that you haven't quite worked out what it is yet.

You need to click on the top link, then under the button, click on select disease for month and year, and then on the drop down menu, select pertussis.

Because... Um... Australia this year, has rather a lot of it...

Hmmm... it doesn't look anything like pertussis, but even if it is... does it matter in terms of SA?? Or it just takes longer, and I should just keep on the same thing, is that what you're saying?


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

emailed you. If he's not had pertussis, its something to keep in the back of your mind.

If it is pertussis, the cough won't define itself for another couple of weeks, but if you continue the SA in the meantime it will be harder to identify the pattern, so I'd cut it down for now, until you know whether its just a cold, or if a cough develops, then you can identify it.

It may just be a cold, but... it may not.


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## Spy (Aug 22, 2006)

Got it. Thanks


----------



## Swirly (May 20, 2006)

Sodium ascorbate can be hazardous to your health, I discovered today....

.....when I dropped the 1-kilo container onto my bare toe from five-feet in the air.







: It's all smushed and blue, and I made my baby cry because I was holding her when it happened and I screamed really, really loud.

Back to your business, just had to get that out in the open


----------



## gratefulmom (Jul 5, 2002)

OK~ So I have been reading thru everything the past 2 nights. Thanks for all of your info MT.
I understand why SA is the best form of Vit C. My naturopath gave us AA for my son (whooping cough and asthma) so I went out and got CA, not remembering correctly from past reading. So now I have both of these and have spent too much. Of the 2, which is better to give him until I get some SA?
TIA~


----------



## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gratefulmom* 
OK~ So I have been reading thru everything the past 2 nights. Thanks for all of your info MT.
I understand why SA is the best form of Vit C. My naturopath gave us AA for my son (whooping cough and asthma) so I went out and got CA, not remembering correctly from past reading. So now I have both of these and have spent too much. Of the 2, which is better to give him until I get some SA?
TIA~

the AA with some baking soda


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## nzangel (Nov 11, 2006)

Hi im new on the boards and i hate to sound dumb but was wondering if plain old vitimn c was as good as the sodium ascorbate. I read in some of the previous that it could be very acidic and that worries me as my 20 month old has severe reflux and cannot tolerate any sort of food without high doses of losec every day. I know by reading Hilary Butlers book that she says that it is great for the immune system which my boy really needs as the meds interfere with the stomach acid but if i were to get some am afraid that it will only hurt him.

Noah is 20 months and is still breastfed (when bad with food that is all he will take) and has not been immunised execpt the vitimn k at birth. HIs immune system is really low so i have just gotten the colloidaL minerals and floradix kindervital for children with vitamins a b c d and e. Is this going to help or am i just whistling in the dark here??

If anyone has any advice would appricate it as i really want to boost his immune system but do so with out agrivating his medical condition.
cheers:


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nzangel* 
Hi im new on the boards and i hate to sound dumb but was wondering if plain old vitimn c was as good as the sodium ascorbate.

Hi NZ angel.

I'm not sure what plain old vitamin C is. I've never used the New Zealand tabletted types as they have junk in them, and some like healtheries have got aspartame etc...

So I've always bought and used sodium ascorbate, as its the most neutral ph and least disruption to biochemical processed.

Quote:

I read in some of the previous that it could be very acidic and that worries me as my 20 month old has severe reflux and cannot tolerate any sort of food without high doses of losec every day.
ascorbic acid is made more ph neutral by combining it with bicarbonate of soda, and I think that combination is described above somewhere, but to me, its just easier to buy sodium ascorbate and use that.

Quote:

I know... it is great for the immune system which my boy really needs as the meds interfere with the stomach acid but if i were to get some am afraid that it will only hurt him.
Then you could look at liposomal vitamin C which is absorbed in the mouth and by passes the digestive system.

That can be obtained here, and maybe they can answer some of your questions as well:

Appleton Associates Limited

P.O. Box 33-1196 Takapuna 1309

Auckland New Zealand

Freephone 0800 754-673

Ph: +64 +9 489-9362

Fax: +64 +9 489-9646

Email: [email protected]

Quote:

Noah is 20 months and is still breastfed (when bad with food that is all he will take) and has not been immunised execpt the vitimn k at birth. HIs immune system is really low so i have just gotten the colloidaL minerals and floradix kindervital for children with vitamins a b c d and e. Is this going to help or am i just whistling in the dark here??
Unfortunately with children like yours, the only way to find out is trial and error. The reason for that is that most medical people haven't the foggiest about what will or won't help outside prescription pharmaceuticals.

Quote:

If anyone has any advice would appricate it as i really want to boost his immune system but do so with out agrivating his medical condition.
cheers:
I think there are some mothers here with children with similar issues. Hopefully some will chime in and help you out...


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## provocativa (Jan 17, 2005)

MT you mentioned earlier dosing extra iron during suspected viral infections, but my reading indicates that bacteria flourish in an iron rich environment, so if the chance of secondary bacterial infection is significant, extra iron would give those guys too much of a leg up. Someone who never progresses to a sinus infection might be fine. This info is from my breastfeeding research, either Hale or Newman, iron supplemented formula is the reason many ff infants get fussy, b/c their gut flora is bad and then the iron helps the baddies to multiply. Another reason to have a probiotic food at every meal. . .
Minerals really are key to immune function and fighting viruses, in the US over 50% of soils are selenium deficient, selenium helps the body fight viruses. Mustard is a great food source of selenium, and good for a cold, too. Don't know specific soil deficiencies in NZ, of course, also I don't know what colloidal minerals you bought, pp, I have taken different concentrace products, and have had the best results with their sea minerals with silver, as far as my immune system goes (dds as well). It is more of a food supplement, with sea vegetables and the like, which are also natural chelators via their iodine content etc. But I'm landlocked so maybe I also needed sea nutrients more. But I have had herpes simplex mouth sores since my mid-20s, whenever I get stressed and they were chronic when I was pg with my first. Fast forward to second pg, and didn't have a one when I was on the sea minerals, except when i got poor and didn't order them. at the first sign of high stress an ugly one popped up on my lip. anecdotal, i know, but i also find that if we're on the sea minerals and get a cold starting, a little homeopathic aconite clears it up, if we're not on them, fighting the cold takes ALOT more work. DD1 is 3, and she takes them. DD2 is only 5 months but I will give them to her when she is old enough to eat with no fears. I hate that they work so well for us because they are expensive.
I think you all are getting gassy with the extra SA because you are having a Herxheimer reaction, and killing off some candida albicans and other bad flora- (possibly some good flora too) yeasties release gas when they die. Some enzyme supplementation would help with the die-off (see www.enzymestuff.com ).
Re: vitamin c and pregnancy, too little will result in a weak amniotic sac. too much can result in extra bleeding during childbirth. That's from a scholarly article i read at www.naturalchilbirth. org I think. . . i would consider the miscarriage risk would be less with sodium ascorbate considering the aforementioned chemistry.


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

Quote:

Re: vitamin c and pregnancy, too little will result in a weak amniotic sac. too much can result in extra bleeding during childbirth.
Have you read anything of Dr Klinner?


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## mama-a-llama (Feb 8, 2006)

So, for those who use SA and bioflavonoid powder as their regular C supplement, how do you do it? Do you make your own capsules? How often do you take it? I've been dumping a gram or so into my water every 2 hours and popping a bioflavonoid pill. But I'm getting tired of that, and I think there must be a better, less laborious way to do it.


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## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama-a-llama* 
So, for those who use SA and bioflavonoid powder as their regular C supplement, how do you do it? Do you make your own capsules? How often do you take it? I've been dumping a gram or so into my water every 2 hours and popping a bioflavonoid pill. But I'm getting tired of that, and I think there must be a better, less laborious way to do it.

I've made my own capsules before but it's easier just to mix the powder with water. I used to take 1.5-2.5 grams every 2 hours but that got to be too much work and now I just take 3.5 grams plus one bioflavonoid capsule three times a day (with meals, basically).


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## Ex Libris (Jan 31, 2004)

In the morning and evening I mix 3-4 grams SA in water and take one 1 g bioflavonoid pill.


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## mammom (Aug 13, 2004)

bump


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## leomom (Aug 6, 2004)

Mammom, thanks for the link to this...just finished reading it after 3 hours...







: ....off to read the nutrition/immunity thread!


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

**


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## leomom (Aug 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery* 
MT-IIRC you mentioned Natural Factors Vitamin C chews. My kiddos adore them, is there any reason not to use these exclusively? I haven't finished doing some searching on it's effect on tooth enamel. I have the SA powder, but we travel quite a bit...it's easier to give them the chews on the road. Please excuse me if this has already been asked and answered.

From what I remember, this is what MT uses for travel. I think the expense is the main reason not to use them exclusively, but I could be missing something...don't know how they affect enamel...


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Rats. Just found a reason. They aren't GF. That's a buncha wasted $.


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## leomom (Aug 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery* 
Rats. Just found a reason. They aren't GF. That's a buncha wasted $.

GF?







I'm sure it's desperately obvious....


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## Ex Libris (Jan 31, 2004)

Gluten free for those who're allergic or sensitive to wheat.


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## leomom (Aug 6, 2004)

Of course...thank you! I knew it was obvious!


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Sorry! Sometimes I live in my own little celiac world...







I forget other people don't have to think about it. I guess I'm still interested in the answer to the original question anyway for others who can still use the product. All I can find is that it is harmful to enamel.


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## Just_Isabel (Mar 5, 2006)

Someone please tell me more about Momtezuma's revenge...







I want to find out if my gut is upset because of too much SA or because of the iron supplement I'm taking. And I don't want to risk going through this again just to find out - I don't like being experimented on, not even by myself







.

So please, anyone who's had experience with M's revenge, tell me all about it.







:









(I didn't even take that much SA today, propaply about 500 mg... but my stomach was feeling kind of upset yesterday already - does SA accumulate in the body?)


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)




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## MammaV (Jul 13, 2002)

THis is a great thread. Just wanted to add that my kids love emergen-C. They eat it straight out of the packet and think it's candy. They also think it's pop when mixed with cool water.
Does anyone know about a natural source, not made in a lab source of SA? Does that exist? So many supplements are not made with natural ingredients, just the lab grown stuff. I don't like to put chemicalized supplements in me or my kids. Thanks.
And no, I didn't check out the emergen-C.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *provocativa* 
MT you mentioned earlier dosing extra iron during suspected viral infections, but my reading indicates that bacteria flourish in an iron rich environment, so if the chance of secondary bacterial infection is significant, extra iron would give those guys too much of a leg up.

If I said that, put a link up please, because that is not what I meant to say, or meant to have it interpretted.

The iron balance is something that's a very fine balance. If you do a google search using Iron + infection, you will see that not enough iron, and you are susceptible to infection, and too much, and as you say, bacteria can have a field day.

Except diphtheria. Diptheria toxin cannot make mayhem *until* the iron is depleted, so there are "exceptions" to the rule. I suspect the same may also apply to other bacteria which are "operated" by a virus called bacteriophages, which switch on toxin producing genes as well, but I can't find much on the others.

Quote:

Someone who never progresses to a sinus infection might be fine.
I guess it depends on the person. This year is the first year I've missed three periods, so had the gaps stretch out, and its the first year where I've finally lost the tag of chronic anaemia.

If there is anything bacterial around, I'm a moving target, but then, with my immune system, that's probably not surprising.

Quote:

This info is from my breastfeeding research, either Hale or Newman, iron supplemented formula is the reason many ff infants get fussy, b/c their gut flora is bad and then the iron helps the baddies to multiply. Another reason to have a probiotic food at every meal. . .
Yes, I agree with that. And another reason not to use formula which has a much higher protein index than breastmilk, and that feeds the badies too.

Quote:

Minerals really are key to immune function and fighting viruses, in the US over 50% of soils are selenium deficient, selenium helps the body fight viruses.
Do you have an updated map of selenium deficiency in USA? This is the only one I could find, and its out of date. If you know where there is a newer one, can you post it?

http://www.saanendoah.com/map1.html

Quote:

Mustard is a great food source of selenium, and good for a cold, too.
Yeah, but I couldn't eat enough mustard to do me much good.

Quote:

Don't know specific soil deficiencies in NZ,
All our soils are deficient so I take 150 mcgs a day, when I can't get brazil nuts.

Quote:

of course, also I don't know what colloidal minerals you bought, pp,
Ones that are designed for our soil deficiencies, not yours...

Quote:

I have taken different concentrace products, and have had the best results with their sea minerals with silver, as far as my immune system goes (dds as well). It is more of a food supplement, with sea vegetables and the like, which are also natural chelators via their iodine content etc. But I'm landlocked so maybe I also needed sea nutrients more. But I have had herpes simplex mouth sores since my mid-20s, whenever I get stressed and they were chronic when I was pg with my first. Fast forward to second pg, and didn't have a one when I was on the sea minerals, except when i got poor and didn't order them. at the first sign of high stress an ugly one popped up on my lip. anecdotal, i know, but i also find that if we're on the sea minerals and get a cold starting, a little homeopathic aconite clears it up, if we're not on them, fighting the cold takes ALOT more work. DD1 is 3, and she takes them. DD2 is only 5 months but I will give them to her when she is old enough to eat with no fears. I hate that they work so well for us because they are expensive.
If you've read the nutrition/immunology thread, you will know that I hammer minerals
















Quote:

I think you all are getting gassy with the extra SA because you are having a Herxheimer reaction, and killing off some candida albicans and other bad flora- (possibly some good flora too) yeasties release gas when they die. Some enzyme supplementation would help with the die-off (see www.enzymestuff.com ).
Yes, but it might not just be yeast, but also some of the other anaerobes, and lack of sulphur...

Quote:

Re: vitamin c and pregnancy, too little will result in a weak amniotic sac. too much can result in extra bleeding during childbirth.
Where does that come from? It took my midwife three contractions with a brand new pair of scissor, which were blunted to cut through the leather than was my amniotic sac with the last labour? Yes, I bled more, but that was from the damage they did in my uterus in the first birth.

Quote:

That's from a scholarly article i read at www.naturalchilbirth. org I think. . . i would consider the miscarriage risk would be less with sodium ascorbate considering the aforementioned chemistry.
That is pretty stupid really, because vitamin C is the base foundation of glucosamine absorption and collagen, and skin protection. Without vitamin C, none of those three things will have good strength. Therefore, for the natural birth people to suggest that, flies in the face of all the known biochemistry that goes along with vitamin C.








:


----------



## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just_Isabel* 
Someone please tell me more about Momtezuma's revenge...







I want to find out if my gut is upset because of too much SA or because of the iron supplement I'm taking. And I don't want to risk going through this again just to find out - I don't like being experimented on, not even by myself







.

I never take iron supplements as they always upset my stomach majorly.

Quote:

So please, anyone who's had experience with M's revenge, tell me all about it.







:








I'm not into revenge
















Quote:

(I didn't even take that much SA today, propaply about 500 mg... but my stomach was feeling kind of upset yesterday already - does SA accumulate in the body?)
I'd quit that iron formulation and find a better one. I use one that dairy farmers use on cows that's based on blackstrap molasses. Tastes foul, so it must be good for me
















The problem might be your gut flora, because if its out of balance more towards gram negative, (or yeast) then you have have a growling orchestra.


----------



## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery* 
MT-IIRC you mentioned Natural Factors Vitamin C chews. My kiddos adore them, is there any reason not to use these exclusively? I haven't finished doing some searching on it's effect on tooth enamel. I have the SA powder, but we travel quite a bit...it's easier to give them the chews on the road. Please excuse me if this has already been asked and answered.


No. The reason I can't, is that they come from Canada, and by the time they get here, they are hugely expensive.


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## mombh (May 6, 2003)

O.K. ...I have 2 question for now ???









ds 3 1/2 has been coughing for about +- 6 weeks now , in the begining he had a cold then croupy cough and then ear infection. I have been giving him SA throughout and also gve him some silver 100 for a few days till ear infection was better ....everything improved and even the cough seemed to be less and then I slacked off the SA and cough returned strong and very chesty "flemy" kinda sounding cough and on and off a clear runny nose.
was wondering if this could be pertussis and since he was being dosed with SA he didn't develop traditional "woop"????
he has many food allergies including gluten and at first I thought maybe it was something chronic co's of some snuck in gluten and also he was eating a lot of dairy ...but I took the dairy out am careful about gluten and he has not had any tummy troubles.....and also not reached bowel tolerence with the SA I was giving him about about 6 - 8 grams a day which I think is more than the recommended 250 / kg ... should I have given /give more????

lastly...







I saw MT that you mentioned something about not enough sulphur??? what is that ??? and how do we increase our sulphur??

TIA


----------



## Just_Isabel (Mar 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara* 
The iron balance is something that's a very fine balance. If you do a google search using Iron + infection, you will see that not enough iron, and you are susceptible to infection, and too much, and as you say, bacteria can have a field day.

So how do we know when we have the right amount? What signs would our bodies show that we are getting just enough?
(Does Pfeiffer talk about this in the Mental & Elemental Nutr. book? I just ordered it yesterday.







)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara* 
I never take iron supplements as they always upset my stomach majorly.









I stopped taking them the day after they made my stomach more upset than it's ever been since I can remember myself.







:
Now I'm pretty sure it was the iron suppl. and not the Vit C that upset my gut.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara* 
I'm not into revenge
























I meant what happens when you take too much Vit C. I think you called that "Momtezuma's revenge" yourself somewhere:









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara* 
I'd quit that iron formulation and find a better one. I use one that dairy farmers use on cows that's based on blackstrap molasses. Tastes foul, so it must be good for me
















I think I'll first try to get it through food - I started eating red meat (was vegetarian before), and I'll try to always have some SA before eating iron rich foods to help with absorption.
If that doesn't work, I will try another iron supplement, but I googled the one I got and it seems to be one of the best.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara* 
The problem might be your gut flora, because if its out of balance more towards gram negative, (or yeast) then you have have a growling orchestra.

Gram negative like high pHs, right? Can I assume my gut is acidic if my urine is?







And I've been drinking plenty of kefir, so I'm hoping I'll have them in my gut in enough numbers to protect me from too much of the "bad" microorganisms.

I'm starting to think that I need to learn more medicine than a medicine student just to figure these things out.


----------



## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mombh* 
O.K. ...I have 2 question for now ???









ds 3 1/2 has been coughing for about +- 6 weeks now , in the begining he had a cold then croupy cough and then ear infection. I have been giving him SA throughout and also gve him some silver 100 for a few days till ear infection was better ....everything improved and even the cough seemed to be less and then I slacked off the SA and cough returned strong and very chesty "flemy" kinda sounding cough and on and off a clear runny nose.
was wondering if this could be pertussis and since he was being dosed with SA he didn't develop traditional "woop"????

The characteristic of SA, is that if you give it right, the cough will be the same length, but far far less in severity. The test is always to go off it, and if the cough increases in severity then it could be whooping cough, but this is only definitive in kids with no other definable problems.

With my kids after about 6 weeks, they didn't want to take it any more, so I just went







and let them not and they were back within 48 hours wanting vitamin c, and within 8 hours we had it back under control. If there is suspicion that it is whooping cough then the full "old wives tale" quota of 100 days cough, should apply and apart from kiddy truculance, I'd only monitor diarrhoea levels up to that point, and then i'd start reducing it, and see what happened.

Quote:

he has many food allergies including gluten and at first I thought maybe it was something chronic co's of some snuck in gluten and also he was eating a lot of dairy ...but I took the dairy out am careful about gluten and he has not had any tummy troubles.....and also not reached bowel tolerence with the SA I was giving him about about 6 - 8 grams a day which I think is more than the recommended 250 / kg ... should I have given /give more????
I think you need to talk to someone like Jane S, because my experience doesn't extend to kids with food allergies.

Obviously what you were doing before, was "working" for whatever it was, and if there is a possibility it is whooping cough, I'd put him back on it.

Quote:

lastly...







I saw MT that you mentioned something about not enough sulphur??? what is that ??? and how do we increase our sulphur??

TIA
Go the the nutrition/immunology stickered thred and using the search this thread function, type in sulphur. See if I put something on that in there....


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Just Isabel, I'll be back later to answer your post. I have a thumping head and can't think more than I've just thunk.


----------



## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just_Isabel* 

Quote:

The iron balance is something that's a very fine balance. If you do a google search using Iron + infection, you will see that not enough iron, and you are susceptible to infection, and too much, and as you say, bacteria can have a field day.
So how do we know when we have the right amount? What signs would our bodies show that we are getting just enough?
(Does Pfeiffer talk about this in the Mental & Elemental Nutr. book? I just ordered it yesterday.







)

Yes, there is a lot in that book, but as adults we know by how we feel, the colour of our nails and insides of the eyelids.

Quote:



Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
I never take iron supplements as they always upset my stomach majorly.









I stopped taking them the day after they made my stomach more upset than it's ever been since I can remember myself.







:
Now I'm pretty sure it was the iron suppl. and not the Vit C that upset my gut.
Some people get diarrhoa, and with some people (like me) it constipated them and they get headaches and double vision.

Quote:



Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
I'm not into revenge
























I meant what happens when you take too much Vit C. I think you called that "Momtezuma's revenge" yourself somewhere:








Yeah, someone else did as a joke. The proper name for travellers diarrhoea is Montezuma's Revenge. Different person
















Quote:



Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
I'd quit that iron formulation and find a better one. I use one that dairy farmers use on cows that's based on blackstrap molasses. Tastes foul, so it must be good for me

I think I'll first try to get it through food - I started eating red meat (was vegetarian before), and I'll try to always have some SA before eating iron rich foods to help with absorption.
I do it mainly through food, and my instincts seem to work pretty well, but in the middle of winter I usually go for some cow lick









Quote:

If that doesn't work, I will try another iron supplement, but I googled the one I got and it seems to be one of the best.








It can be the best in the world and still make someone sick.

Pycnogenol, is something a lot of people swear by, and get great results on. Me? It gives me excrutiating arthritis in the hips.

Quote:



Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
The problem might be your gut flora, because if its out of balance more towards gram negative, (or yeast) then you have have a growling orchestra.

Gram negative like high pHs, right?
Gram negatives like excess protein, which creates alkaline faeces around 7.0 - 8.0 and those are the conditions gram negatives like

Quote:

Can I assume my gut is acidic if my urine is?








I probably would assume that, but I'd also go by the consistency and frequency of what you do down the toilet. It should be soft, and ideally, float.

Quote:

And I've been drinking plenty of kefir, so I'm hoping I'll have them in my gut in enough numbers to protect me from too much of the "bad" microorganisms.
You have to have acidophilus as well, and kefir doesn't have much of that in it. I make a probiotic yoghurt, and have yakult. I mix the kefir with the yoghurt when I eat it, and use the yakult as the "milk" on top. Might be what you call the shotgun approach.

Quote:

I'm starting to think that I need to learn more medicine than a medicine student just to figure these things out.








Wrong. The med student never learns any of this, so you already know more than your doctor does


----------



## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:

I probably would assume that, but I'd also go by the consistency and frequency of what you do down the toilet. It should be soft, and ideally, float.
so floating poop is a good thing? mine has been hit and miss since having ds, i get constipatied very fast (less than 24hrs) with stress, the slightest change in my water consumption or a food that didnt agree with me. Is there anything I can do to help that from your knowledge? I'm dairy free pretty much because of ds, so i can't add in yoghurt or keifer. Sometimes i have soft and float, most the time its just soft (if I watch myself).


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *romans_mum* 
so floating poop is a good thing?

Well, that's the ideal, since it means that the bacterial balance is primarily aerobic, and your pre and probiotic content is ideal, but there will be times when it won't be like that, like when you have a binge on black chocolate and licorice at the same time









Quote:

mine has been hit and miss since having ds, i get constipatied very fast (less than 24hrs) with stress, the slightest change in my water consumption or a food that didnt agree with me. Is there anything I can do to help that from your knowledge?
Have you noticed that when you od on sa, that what comes out floats? That's partly kill off, but its also because it encourages aerobics.

Quote:

I'm dairy free pretty much because of ds, so i can't add in yoghurt or keifer.
Yes, you can. Kefir can be made with any form of milk, like rice, barley or goat, but its consistency won't be thick and rich like with cow's milk.

Quote:

Sometimes i have soft and float, most the time its just soft (if I watch myself).
I would just major on getting your fibre from salads and fruit, peaches, nectarines, avocados and whole grains, or whatever suits you best. It's nuts that can constipate me, so I have to be careful with them.


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## moonshine (Dec 5, 2002)

I was under the impression that floating stool was not good.

Quote:

Floating stools
Stools that float are generally associated with some degree of malabsorption of foods or excessive flatus/gas. Floating stool is seen is a variety of different situations, the majority being diet-related or in association with episodes of diarrhea caused by an acute gastrointestinal infection. A change in dietary habits can lead to an increase in the amount of gas produced by bacteria in the gastrointestinal tract. Similarly, acute gastrointestinal infections can result in increased air/gas content from rapid movement of food through the GI tract. One misconception is that floating stools are caused by an increase in the fat content of the stool. In fact, increased air/gas levels in the stool make it less dense and allow it to float. Another cause of floating stools is malabsorption. More than two weeks of diarrhea with floating stools is often seen in people suffering from malabsorption, a dysfunction in the GI tract that affects the body's ability to digest and absorb fat and other food. Increased levels of nutrients in the stool (those not absorbed by the GI tract) are supplied to the normal bacteria that live in the gut, which in turn produce more gas. This results in more air/gas- rich stool that floats. Dietary changes, diarrhea, and malabsorption can cause floating stools. Most causes are benign and will resolve when the infection ends or the bacteria in the GI tract become accustomed to the changes in your diet.
That is from enzyme stuff


----------



## Just_Isabel (Mar 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara* 
Yeah, someone else did as a joke. The proper name for travellers diarrhoea is Montezuma's Revenge. Different person
















Oops!









I'll have to come back to this later, I don't really have time right now. But this stool talk is very interesting.

And at the same time frustrating because I really should stop obsessing about medicine and do my school stuff! Ack.

Anyway, I can't see if my stool floats or not, most toilets here aren't built that way, the stool doesn't fall into a bunch of water, but on to a "platform" with a little water, and then when you flush the water takes it away. Does that make sense? Did anyone even want to read about the different toilets in the world?









Joining acidophilus and yakult to my kefir should be easy though.


----------



## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonshine* 
I was under the impression that floating stool was not good.

Quote:

Floating stools
Stools that float are generally associated with some degree of malabsorption of foods or excessive flatus/gas. Floating stool is seen is a variety of different situations, the majority being diet-related or in association with episodes of diarrhea caused by an acute gastrointestinal infection. A change in dietary habits can lead to an increase in the amount of gas produced by bacteria in the gastrointestinal tract. Similarly, acute gastrointestinal infections can result in increased air/gas content from rapid movement of food through the GI tract. One misconception is that floating stools are caused by an increase in the fat content of the stool. In fact, increased air/gas levels in the stool make it less dense and allow it to float. Another cause of floating stools is malabsorption. More than two weeks of diarrhea with floating stools is often seen in people suffering from malabsorption, a dysfunction in the GI tract that affects the body's ability to digest and absorb fat and other food. Increased levels of nutrients in the stool (those not absorbed by the GI tract) are supplied to the normal bacteria that live in the gut, which in turn produce more gas. This results in more air/gas- rich stool that floats. Dietary changes, diarrhea, and malabsorption can cause floating stools. Most causes are benign and will resolve when the infection ends or the bacteria in the GI tract become accustomed to the changes in your diet.

That is from enzyme stuff










All of which goes to show that there is a lot of stuff to wade through in the internet.

For instance... if you have stools with increased fat in them, they will be very yellow, longish and thin and you will feel terrible, because your liver and gall bladder will be feeling the pressure. Now having been in this position, I can say that in my experience, fat laden poos do not float. They are sticky, stringy and sink fast.

What I know is this. After I did a raft of gall bladder flushes ( the ones people say are a load of rubbish) not only did my liver enzymes return to normal, but my fat laden poos also returned to normal once I got the stones out of my liver and my gall bladder, and enable the bile to move properly. So long as I have plenty of fruit and veges, etc what I produce is soft, sometimes floats, sometimes doesn't, and I don't really worry about it. I feel most comfortable when they float more than sink, but that's me.

I've read a lot about it, and decided what works best for me, but I'm queer and we all know that.

What you have to do is read everything there is about it, study your own body, keep a diary and work out when you feel best, how your body works, and try to achieve that.

For me, being a person who naturally skews towards constipation and sinkers, vitamin C, fruit and veges are part of what I need to make things soft, fluffy and not crack the porcelain when it bombs the bottom of the chamber pot.


----------



## mombh (May 6, 2003)

: and really enjoying the descriptive disscusion









I was also under the impression that "floaties" are a sign of malabsorbtion, although I definately have not read up much about that, except that we have gluten intolerences here and that seems to be what the so-called "experts" say is one of the symptoms of gluten intolerence?









I agree that it has to be more of a personal, "the way your body works " kinda thing.


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## moonshine (Dec 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara* 
For me, being a person who naturally skews towards constipation and sinkers, vitamin C, fruit and veges are part of what I need to make things soft, fluffy and not crack the porcelain when it bombs the bottom of the chamber pot.









You and me both, honey. Oh, MT I think it would be such great fun to sit and have a coffee klatch together or the like. Too bad you are on the other end of the earth.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara* 
Have you noticed that when you od on sa, that what comes out floats? That's partly kill off, but its also because it encourages aerobics. Yes, you can. Kefir can be made with any form of milk, like rice, barley or goat, but its consistency won't be thick and rich like with cow's milk. I would just major on getting your fibre from salads and fruit, peaches, nectarines, avocados and whole grains, or whatever suits you best. It's nuts that can constipate me, so I have to be careful with them.

i'm also nutless because of ds. I will definatly try upping my fresh fruit and veges. I will look for keifer made from rice milk. Can I also just take probiotics in capsule form, or is the keifer more readily absorbed?

ETA: but I'm still as nutty as a fruitcake


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara* 
What I know is this. After I did a raft of gall bladder flushes ( the ones people say are a load of rubbish) not only did my liver enzymes return to normal, but my fat laden poos also returned to normal once I got the stones out of my liver and my gall bladder, and enable the bile to move properly. So long as I have plenty of fruit and veges, etc what I produce is soft, sometimes floats, sometimes doesn't, and I don't really worry about it. I feel most comfortable when they float more than sink, but that's me.


yeah, i saw a huge difference after they removed my gall bladder..... i paid much attention before, but once it was removed, my stools definatly became normaler. Obviously not as perfect as it would be if I still had my gall bladder sans stones.

Quote:

For me, being a person who naturally skews towards constipation and sinkers, vitamin C, fruit and veges are part of what I need to make things soft, fluffy and not crack the porcelain when it bombs the bottom of the chamber pot.
I also constipate easy since ds, so i will definatly try and be like you









its amazing how much our bodys can change after kids. Before ds, my regular was ever 2-3days and I never constipated, now if I dont go at least daily and if i dont drink at least 8 glasses of water, i get constipated. Of course, breastfeeding probably has something to do with that.


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## Just_Isabel (Mar 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara* 
Yes, there is a lot in that book, but as adults we know by how we feel, the colour of our nails and insides of the eyelids.

What about the color of our nails? Mine are always the same color - except when I eat a tangerine or mandarin, then they turn orangish.









And I can't see the insides of my eyelids, what happens to them and how?







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara* 
Gram negatives like excess protein,

So, do they take what our body didn't absorb after its done with the absorbtion process? Or do they start feeding on it at the same stage of digestion when we also absorb it?

Would an Atkins diet make the Gram neg. grow a bunch? (I'm not doing it, but many people seem to be, and they are supposed to eat lots of protein and fats.) Are gram neg bacteria anaerobic?

What do the acidophilus, kefir and L. casei (Shirota) eat? Lactose? If it's lactose, how often do I need to have dairy for them to thrive? Does cheese







count?









I want to go back to not having to think about food.







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara* 
which creates alkaline faeces around 7.0 - 8.0 and those are the conditions gram negatives like

So... excess protein --> alkaline environment (because of the N?)?


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## MsGrizzle (Jun 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caedmyn* 
MT (or anyone else who knows)--do you know why large doses of vitamin C cause major gas & bloating? I mostly take sodium ascorbate to almost bowel tolerance but sometimes I just get tired of the horrible gas so I don't take it for a while..

I have a very gassy 5.5 month old. I drink at least 3g of emergen-c daily (haven't gotten SA yet)...could I be contributing to his gas issues?

FYI - We've tried all kinds of diet changes and chiro and nothing changed his gas. I'm taking him to a homeopath in a couple of weeks.


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## lyttlewon (Mar 7, 2006)

Is there anything you need to do differently for an infant when giving SA other than a smaller dosage? I have a friend with a three month old.


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## Laurel723 (Jul 24, 2006)

Roman's Mum-

Rather than look for premade rice milk kefir, you could get kefir grains and make your own-can I say there is a sticky at the top of the trad foods forum for people w/ kefir grains looking for loving homes?







(I know we're not supposed to mention other threads/forums...but this isn't snarky so is it ok?)

I've not had time/patience/energy to get it yet-rumor has it coconut milk kefir is yummy but not sure what sort of bugs or vit/min profile it would have-maybe you already know all this, but thought I'd toss it out for those that were listening in that didn't...


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

thanks for the tip, i cant do coconut, i dont want to risk it. My family has a history of coconut allergies, and since I'm still bf I don't want to expose him yet.


----------



## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *romans_mum* 
thanks for the tip, i cant do coconut, i dont want to risk it. My family has a history of coconut allergies, and since I'm still bf I don't want to expose him yet.

You can get water kefir grains and make kefir sodas with sugar water and fruit or juice for flavoring.


----------



## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just_Isabel* 
What about the color of our nails? Mine are always the same color - except when I eat a tangerine or mandarin, then they turn orangish.









If you are anaemic, your nail beds will be pale, and if you squeeze the end of the finger between thumb and finger, let go, there will be no rebound pink. Then you know you are anaemic. But by then, any blood tests done correctly, should have told you that.

But in trying to answer these questions, I can also see that where the basics of health is no longer taught, on the assumption that the experts have taken control of that, discussion of things like this can be quite hard.

There is a lot to learn about nails, nail beds, different sorts of ridges on nails, trenches... many conditions in nails can show you what is happening on the inside of the body. Some of that will come up on a google search.

Quote:

And I can't see the insides of my eyelids, what happens to them and how?







:
You put your fingers just under your lower eye lashes, and pull the flesh in the direction in which your feet reside. Assuming you are standing. Then you should be able to see the inside of your lower eyelids. But I guess if you aren't familiar with what healthy lower inside eyelids look like, you won't figure what unhealthy ones look like.

The inside of your lower lid should look a light pin (define light pink she says







) but if you are anaemic, the inside of the lid will look almost white.

Again, maybe you could do a google image search, or ask older people around, who might still know how to describe it to you.

Quote:

So, do they take what our body didn't absorb after its done with the absorbtion process?
No. Excess protein causes a more alkaline ph, which alters the gut composition, and suits the nutritional needs of gram negative bacteria. This is the same reason why laboratories, when they culture for Staph, will use a completely different nutrient composition than when they culture for diphtheria. Both bacteria need a different nutritional basis upon which to grow.

Quote:

Or do they start feeding on it at the same stage of digestion when we also absorb it?
That would depend on how bad your system has got, as to when it started. If you stomach hydrochloric acid was terrible, it could start quite high up in the digestive tract.

Quote:

Would an Atkins diet make the Gram neg. grow a bunch? (I'm not doing it, but many people seem to be, and they are supposed to eat lots of protein and fats.) Are gram neg bacteria anaerobic?
This thread is primarily about vitamin C. It's very useful against toxins put out by gram negative bacteria.

Rather than answer your question, the best way to deal with this would be to give you some study tips.

The key to google, is to use key words effective.

If you don't know what anaerobic bacteria are, but into google different phrases like

*anaerobic organisms.

anaerobic bacteria

anaerobic infections* or even a big mouthful like *
Pathogenicity of anaerobic bacteria* Play around with word combinations and read whatever takes your fancy.

It may be a lot longer than someone giving you the answer, but it might also help you understand the issues more thoroughly. The problem for you will be that medical articles use a language from Mars, and you may find yourself ready to scream after about a paragraph, because they use long words when simple explanations would suffice. Which is all part of making ordinary people feel stupid.

Here is an example of what I mean. One article that comes up on a search is this one here:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/534796

Being realistic, forget about it. There is however, one sentence which says:

Quote:

this ecosystem is readily influenced by a variety of physiologic and other host factors, such as age, pregnancy, menses, diet, underlying disease, hospitalization, and antimicrobial therapy
Then the rest of the article is almost inaccessible to an ordinary brain, and one of the reasons I think that is so, is because the authors don't really understand the influences of those things they put there, in a meaningful sense, so they revert to discussions of mechanisms and treatment, as they see it. Nowhere is there any evidence that the person who wrote this, really understands the basis of health, and how to create it.

So that will be the biggest problem you will have when reading medical literature...

On the other hand, this article, might be slightly more accessible to your brain than the first one:

http://www.gsbs.utmb.edu/microbook/ch019.htm

The secret may be to ignore the russian words the first time, just snorkel generally, get a feel, and then go back and pick it apart.

Again, the treatment options are all chemical. No thought of changing, the feedstock in any way, as the Russians used to try to do









The gut will be a mix of organisms, but certain food patterns encourage certain combinations. Therefore, for instance, because baby formula is a much higher protein than breastmilk, (or was, when they studied it) it is of no surprise that older medical literature in the days when these things were considered worth of study, found that formula fed babies had a much higher level of gram negative bacteria.

Quote:

What do the acidophilus, kefir and L. casei (Shirota) eat? Lactose? If it's lactose, how often do I need to have dairy for them to thrive? Does cheese







count?








Not necessarily they feed off sugars and they come in many forms.... Think Sauercraut, which is an acidophilus food. There is no lactose in cabbage. I think you need to go and do a search on what probiotics are, and what they do. Here is one off google:

http://www.philippinenews.com/news/v...a0da448646a7f3

There are many races that have lactose intolerance, who eat probiotics, all of which are made on a huge variety of foods, not just dairy.

Quote:


I want to go back to not having to think about food.







:

So... excess protein --> alkaline environment (because of the N?)?
Too much protein, particularly in the form of meat,dairy etc... causes the body to leach out calcium. The key though is balance. It's vitally important to get fresh raw foods and the whys of it which help to balance out the negatives of protein. This is what worried me about Atkins.. ...

This url may seem obscure, but sometimes vets put things in ways that doctors could learn from, and in some ways our guts aren't so different to animals









http://www.nodpa.com/health.html

Go down to the article called W)HOLISTIC ANIMAL HUSBANDRY
by Jerry Brunetti
and read the

*five digestive keynotes*

Also look at the specific treatments, and ask yourself why they don't suggest these for humans.


----------



## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

To confuse things further, you might want to tackle this article:

http://www.tuberose.com/Acid_Base_Balance.html

But its not a walk in the park to understand.


----------



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Yeah, I finally read all 11 pages of this thread!!!

I bought vitamin C powder the other day, and when I came home I realized it was ascorbic acid, not sodium ascorbate.

I get plenty of salt in my diet- is there any reason NOT to take the AA?

And why isn't this thread stickied? I was going nuts trying to find it, started a new thread that got moved out of here, etc.


----------



## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

A good discussion on vitamin C types, advantages and disadvantages:

http://tomlevymd.com/archiveissue9.htm

AA is very harsh on the system. If you've read the whole thread, you will have seen the posts on sodium bicarbonate to make it less acid....

If they stickied everything I thought should be stickied, we'd have no first page
















Using the search this thread function, the posts came up:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...&postcount=321

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...&postcount=323


----------



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Yes, I read those posts, but I'm still wondering how vital it is to mix the sodium in with the AA vs taking them separately ie eating lots of salty foods plus taking the AA.

Also, is there a point to taking sodium bicarbinate or would any form of sodium work (to balance out the ascorbic acid)?


----------



## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Sodium is the ion that is needed to process the ascorbate. Bicarbonate is the part needed to reduce *the acidity.*

As Tom Levy says, *sodium chloride* is a whole nother chemical with different functions.

Here the aim is to reduce acidity. Therefore you need the bicarb bit. Sodium is needed to process the ascorbate. In this circumstance why are you considering sodium chloride?


----------



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara* 
Here the aim is to reduce acidity. Therefore you need the bicarb bit. Sodium is needed to process the ascorbate. In this circumstance why are you considering sodium chloride?

Because it tastes better.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Well, then, fire ahead.

But you could always put it in guacamole, and eat that with carrot sticks... ?


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## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

MT--do you have any links or info on what the proper pH of the gut is? I used to test my urine pH but I gave up because there were so many different opinions on what the "correct" pH range should be that I didn't know what to look for.


----------



## Laurel723 (Jul 24, 2006)




----------



## phishers3 (Sep 17, 2006)

:

its late and Im lazy today... is there a book list/suggestion for all this vit C info? did I read in a thread somewhere, sometime that MT wrote a book/s?









so much wisdom, so little time

Happy New year


----------



## Spy (Aug 22, 2006)




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## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phishers3* 







:

its late and Im lazy today... is there a book list/suggestion for all this vit C info? did I read in a thread somewhere, sometime that MT wrote a book/s?









so much wisdom, so little time

Happy New year









MT's book is more of a vax book, it's called "Just a Little Prick". I've read a couple of good books on vitamin C, the one I can remember the title of is called "Vitamin C, Infectious Diseases, and Toxins". I think the other one was called "Vitamin C The Pros and Cons" or something like that.


----------



## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caedmyn* 
MT--do you have any links or info on what the proper pH of the gut is? I used to test my urine pH but I gave up because there were so many different opinions on what the "correct" pH range should be that I didn't know what to look for.

No, I don't. I know what the ph in the gut, of a breast fed baby is, but I've no idea what it "should" be in an adult. Sorry.

It's not quite the sort of thing I'm that interested in persuing.

The title of my book is what every nurse says to every child in this country before they get an injection of anything, be it a vaccine, a blood test, ... anything with a needle.

Talking about Vitamin C, I've just read the MOST AMAZING book. It's the 1982 reprint of a 1920 book called *Scurvy: Past and Present* by Alfred F. Hess MD.

It is totally, totally.. mindblowing. Yoweeeee!!! It fills in so many gaps, and is just... amazing.

Apart from Thomas Levy's book on Vitamin C, Infectious disease and toxins, I've just bought his other one called *Stop America's #1 Killer! Reversible Vitamin Deficiency found to be Origin of ALL coronary Heart Disease.*

I bought this, because I also have Professor C Alan B Clemetson's 3 volume text book set from 1989, (which is also amazing, but technical, but very hard to get...) and had corresponded with him for many years, so also have his articles about the research he did on vitamin C deficiency and coronary heart disease, and I'm looking forward to seeing if Dr Levy adds anything to that body of work.

The other books on vitamin C I like are *Ascorbate, The science of Vitamin C* by Dr. Steve Hickey & Dr. Hilary Roberts.

Of the older ones I also like *The Healing Factor Vitamin C against Disease* by Irwin Stone;

*vitamin C and the Common Cold* Linus Pauling

And

*The Vitamin C connection.* Dr Emanuel Cheraskin.

Then there are two others by Dr Archie Kalokerinos:

*Every second child*

and

*Vitamin C, Natures Miraculous Healing Missile.*

But Dr Hess's book has put the whole lot into perspective.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Hi,
I've ordered SA through the internet and started to take it few days ago. Pretty much since then I have noticed that my 2m.o. dd started to spit up MUCH more (she almost never did it before, VERY VERY RARE). Can it be because of SA that she is getting through my breast milk?
I'm not eating ANY dairy since before she was born, nor soy, spices, nuts and other foods that are likely to cause allergic reactions in newborns. And I didn't change anything in my diet other than introducing SA.
Thanks,
Yulia.


----------



## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

The only way to know for sure if it's the SA is to eliminate it for a few days. If you've also eliminated corn, and the SA is corn-derived, it could be that. What brand is it?


----------



## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pookietooth* 
The only way to know for sure if it's the SA is to eliminate it for a few days. If you've also eliminated corn, and the SA is corn-derived, it could be that. What brand is it?

I did two times and both times it helped with spit ups. I don't really eat corn but I suppose I'm getting some of it as an ingredient of some other foods and I never noticed her reacting to it..
Can it be that she gets overdosed through my breastmilk? I was taking a recommended dosage.
The brand is BRONSON. It taste ok with juice, but with water it tastes like baking soda. Is it normal?
Thanks,
Yulia.


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## amjs (Oct 23, 2005)

i'm taking vit c to head off a cold. i think i hit my bowel tolerance this morning-- do i stop taking it now? or do i just back off the dosage? i definitely feel relief of my symptoms today--any suggestions about how long i should continue to take it?


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## AutumnMama (Jan 2, 2004)

Yay! Finally finished this thread. Great info, thanks to everyone who contributed.
This definitely needs to stay bumped at the top.


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## cortsmommy (Jul 6, 2003)

Quote:

The problem might be your gut flora, because if its out of balance more towards gram negative, (or yeast) then you have have a growling orchestra.
I've definitely had a growling orchestra.

Will the SA take care of this itself in time or should I be doing somethign else for this issue?


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## Apiana (Jul 14, 2005)

Wow, just finished this thread. It's taken me a week with my little snippets of internet time. I am fascinated by diet & nutrition, have taken classes, etc.
But, MT:








I've never had an instructor be so concise & also answer with so much patience & humor.
Thanks for this.

Now, off to try to get thru the nutrition/immunology thread!


----------



## MammaKoz (Dec 9, 2003)




----------



## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)




----------



## She2dancer (Jun 5, 2005)

Wow! It just took me about 5 days to read this whole thread! Thanks for the great info!


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## ejsmama (Jun 20, 2006)

Wow! Finally finished this thread - have learned SO much. Question - why is Emergency an option? Mine does not list sodium ascorbate as its form of vit c. Is it ok because it also has sodium bicarbonate?


----------



## ejsmama (Jun 20, 2006)

So my Naturalpathic physician/cousin and I were talking, and he disputed that there is any difference between SA and absorbic acid. "Sounds like a marketing gimic to me" he said. Anyone have any good references I could point him too?


----------



## nataliachick7 (Apr 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ejsmama* 
Wow! Finally finished this thread - have learned SO much. Question - why is Emergency an option? Mine does not list sodium ascorbate as its form of vit c. Is it ok because it also has sodium bicarbonate?

sodium bicarb is baking soda.


----------



## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ejsmama* 
So my Naturalpathic physician/cousin and I were talking, and he disputed that there is any difference between SA and absorbic acid. "Sounds like a marketing gimic to me" he said. Anyone have any good references I could point him too?

SA isn't marketed IMO. Very few people know about it's difference in Ph, and why the body absorbs more. Now ESTER-C *that* is a marketing ploy without research to back it up.

Tell him to look into the spectatular clinical work of Frederick Klenner using SA, he'll learn a lot more than just the difference between SA and AA.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Tell him to look into the spectatular clinical work of Frederick Klenner using SA, he'll learn a lot more than just the difference between SA and AA.

And to make his life easier, his work is online here:

*Clinical Guide to the Use of Vitamin C*

http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorba...guide_1988.htm

and

http://www.doctoryourself.com/klennerpaper.html


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## ejsmama (Jun 20, 2006)

I looked through both articles (though not thoroughly) and they mostly seemed to mention absorbic acid and not SA. Am I missing something (quite likely)?


----------



## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ejsmama* 
I looked through both articles (though not thoroughly) and they mostly seemed to mention absorbic acid and not SA. Am I missing something (quite likely)?

Yes!

This was on the very top of the second link:

Quote:

Comment by Robert F. Cathcart, M.D.: This paper repeatedly refers to intravenous ascorbic acid. My personal experience, my talking with Klenner, and with his wife, Annie Klenner, who served as his nurse, would indicate that he means *sodium ascorbate*. See my article on how to make intravenous C solutions. I am especially indebted to Annie Klenner for her descriptions of how Fred made the intravenous solutions of sodium ascorbate.
But the _content_ of Klenner's work is the point Jane was wanting to get across (I believe).


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## Chicharronita (Oct 8, 2006)

I just got done reading this whole thread! Do I get an award of some kind?









Doesn't the vitamin C researcher Dr. Cathcart and other pro-vitamin C sites recommend plain AA rather than SA for oral intake?

I notice that in the links in support of SA in this thread, it mainly talks about using it for I.V. use (although Klenner himself used oral SA) rather than orally. I wonder why that is, if it is the superior form?

The only time I saw SA recommended above AA was for allergies and adrenal problems, at least in the limited google searches I did.


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## tappahannock (Jul 1, 2005)

Chicharronita, sorry, I don't know the answer to your questions, and I think they are good ones.

I just wanted to add that after much experimentation, I found a way to get my 2 year old to take SA pretty easily. I mix it in strawberry jam. I have been giving him 1/2 teaspoon of SA at a time, in one teaspoon of strawberry jam (the fruit juice-sweetened kind). He also will take it in a teaspoon of honey, but the jam masks the taste even better. As others have posted, it is sometimes really hard to get a child to take SA. This finally worked for me, and I am happy to report that after two days of about 10 grams of SA, his chronically runny nose has ceased running!
Thanks MT, for giving me the idea and the knowledge to back it up.


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## Chicharronita (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tappahannock* 
Chicharronita, sorry, I don't know the answer to your questions, and I think they are good ones.

That's okay; thanks for responding. I got a bottle of SA, and took 2 to 3G doses at a time (about 6 to 9G a day) until the bottle was half-empty.

It didn't have the same "punch" as when I take AA, and have gone back to taking AA instead.

I've been thinking about this a lot, especially because I read Kundalini-Mama was taking it before she passed away.


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## leomom (Aug 6, 2004)

Chicharronita;8486205T
I've been thinking about this a lot said:


> http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif[/IMG]


Taking SA?


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## Chicharronita (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leomom* 
Taking SA?

Yes:

"And funny about the sodium ascorbate and local anesthesia I, of course, was dosing quite heavy on it prior to surgery"

Here's a general comment about taking SA throughout the day.


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## Kontessa (Nov 5, 2005)

Simply amazing! Now I know what to add to my smoothies!


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## travisandjill (Jul 18, 2005)

can anyone recommend a good brand of SA....also about the bioflavonoids, is it alright to take Quercitin instead of citrus. I cannot have citrus products.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)




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## T&D2005 (May 29, 2007)

If anyone still reads this post.. I have a question! I went to order some sodium ascorbate online and read the description first that said not to use for those on a sodium restricted diet. Although no one in my family is on a sodium restricted diet, I THOUGHT babies were suppose to stay away from excess salts, sugars ect.. won't that mess with a babies kidneys? My DS is 5.5 months and my parents are coming down in 3 weeks (my mom is always sick so I wanted to get some extra vit c). I no longer BF because of medicine I take so I want to protect my little guy- he just started solids this past week. Anyone know about the sodium thing?


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## abunchofus (Jul 5, 2005)

wow! this thread is LONG! I wish there was an easy way to print this whole thread off to take to bed to nurse baby and read! I'll be back later to read through all of this!


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## tooticky (Mar 30, 2006)

*T&D2005* - from what I read (from the links provided in this thread), it is NaCl (table salt) that is harmful to the body, not the pure sodium that is the buffer in Sodium Ascorbate.

This is what I came to understand from reading this thread but would love some confirmation on that...


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

I don't know if I should post this on the tail end here or start a new thread, but I'll try this first. What do you do at the point where your child does get loose bowels from the sodium ascorbate? I cut it back, but now even a small amount seems to still cause a loose bowel. There's no fever anymore, this is just a cold and cough. But I can still here congestion in there, and can feel it in myself too, so I don't want to just ignore it.
Thanks!


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

For whatever reason we (DS & I) cannot tolerate sodium ascorbate as our daily version of vitamin C regardless of how small the dosage is either. I'm sure it's because of gut damage/sensitivity. We do either NOW Acerola powder or Tru-C.

While it seems like the jury is out whether small amounts of natural vitamin C truly work like larger doses of the chemical SA or AA compound, it works better for us. I keep meaning to get the liposomal version from LivOn Labs for emergencies as it bypasses the gut totally.


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## Ex Libris (Jan 31, 2004)

Hello,
I just wanted to let everyone know of my experience regarding high dose Vitamin C. I've been taking anywhere from 4-15 mg a day of sodium ascorbate for the last 3 years, depending on need. This last year I began having problems with my hands--they would get red and swollen throughout the day. I saw several doctors, none of whom could diagnose the problem.

Turns out that I have developed an oxalate problem because Vitamin C can convert to oxalates in the body (similar to what kidney stones are made of, except the oxalates are deposited--and wreak havoc--throughout the body rather than the kidneys).

I found this out because my ASD son has a problem with oxalates, too, and when reading around on the oxalate yahoo group, red hands were mentioned as one (of many) symptoms. I now have to be on a low oxalate diet to encourage my body to dump the excess oxalates. Not fun.

I'm not saying this could happen to everyone; I just wanted to share my experience in case it might apply to others.

Kelly


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## Jewish Mom (May 23, 2005)

jane s and ex libris: just wondering, which type of vitamin c have you been taking, when the not great side effects occured? is it sodium ascorbate??
thank you to alerting us to these possibilities.. much health to all


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## Ex Libris (Jan 31, 2004)

I was taking the sodium ascorbate powder made by Source Naturals. I think that the oxalate problem is something that built up over time. Once the symptoms showed up to alert me to a problem, it was too late.

Kelly


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## Jewish Mom (May 23, 2005)

thanks ex l. for responding! GL...


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## mombh (May 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ex Libris* 
Hello,
I just wanted to let everyone know of my experience regarding high dose Vitamin C. I've been taking anywhere from 4-15 mg a day of sodium ascorbate for the last 3 years, depending on need. This last year I began having problems with my hands--they would get red and swollen throughout the day. I saw several doctors, none of whom could diagnose the problem.

Turns out that I have developed an oxalate problem because Vitamin C can convert to oxalates in the body (similar to what kidney stones are made of, except the oxalates are deposited--and wreak havoc--throughout the body rather than the kidneys).

I found this out because my ASD son has a problem with oxalates, too, and when reading around on the oxalate yahoo group, red hands were mentioned as one (of many) symptoms. I now have to be on a low oxalate diet to encourage my body to dump the excess oxalates. Not fun.

I'm not saying this could happen to everyone; I just wanted to share my experience in case it might apply to others.

Kelly

I was wondering if this is due to taking such high doses everyday for years?
did you also take bioflavonoids while you were taking the SA?
was their a particular reason for such high doses everyday? from what I understand, such high doses consistantly are more for the acute stage of something and then you would probably keep a low maintenance dose?
Is this something that is pretty common ?
does anyone know/think this would occur with the natural c like amla or acerola too?
what other factors need to be in place for this to happen??

thank you for sharing this info with us








there is so much still to learn ....


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

I've heard that Vitamin C also competes for elimination with salicylates, so if you have a problem with them, high doses of C are not good.


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## krankedyann (May 28, 2005)




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## krankedyann (May 28, 2005)

Jeff and I went to bed at 1am Sunday night, thanks to the time change. Trey woke up with a fever at 1:05. I woke up sick at 4, and Belle at 6am. We all three have the flu, we caught it from Jeff when we got home last Wednesday. He was laid out for days, limp as a dishrag.

So this morning before Jeff left for work, he hauled the kid's mattress into the living room in front of the fireplace and he battened down the hatches for a REALLY bad few days. Anyone who knows me knows that normally when I get a bug, I'm laid out for a week and everything falls apart. Jeff normally breezes through being sick, and I'm the one who gets hit with the MAC truck, so I don't mind telling you I was scared of how sick I was about to get since this one had laid him out.

So I drug myself out of bed and headed towards the kitchen. Belle was already laid out on the mattress and Trey wasn't far behind. I read this thread and some others about SA here a while back, and figured I'd give it a try. I mixed us each up a dose of 4 grams of sodium ascorbate, a dose of sambucol, and a dose of Oscillococcinum. Trey and I forced ours down, Belle refused the SA but took the sambucol and oscilio.

In 30 minutes, Trey was up and playing. In an hour, I was able to get up and do laundry and clean the kitchen despite a headache. We've been doing 1 gram every 2 hours since then, and I feel ok. I'm able to function even though I'm not 100%. Belle refused to take the SA. She's still laid out on the mattress, and not able to get up and go to the toilet without help, she's so weak. I did manage to get about 3 grams into her over several hours since then, but she didn't get the loading dose, and that seems to be what made a huge difference with me and Trey. Her nose is pouring and she can't eat. She's better today, but still laid out. Next time, I won't give her the choice of whether she takes it or not.

It took 10 grams to hit bowel tolerance for me, and that didn't happen until well into the evening. I'm going to try to consume 9 grams through the day and see if that keeps me from having diarrhea from it.

So now I'm a major believer in what I've read about SA getting you over illness quickly. I went and ordered more to have on hand. We're going to stay on all three for a few days to make sure this is over with. I'm using the baking soda and AA mix until it arrives. our local HFS didn't have the SA.

We were exposed to chicken pox last week, so now we're waiting to see if we get the pox, too. If the kids do get it, we'll use SA during that time, too. I'm hoping it will reduce the duration and severity for them.


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## Roxy2007 (Dec 12, 2007)

oh my this thread is long.

quick one, i posted about Vit C & vax, we will be starting to vax DS at 6 months, he is now 9 weeks, EBF and will be for a while.

I read and someone posted about the Dr Sears book about dosing up babies prior to vax. my midwife mentioned to give him 3000mg, which seems excessive. he is a healthy boy, so i am thinking if breastmilk is going to be enough or should i give him a tiny bit of SA prior and a few days after the vax?

thanks


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## CORGIDOG (Jun 19, 2007)

I wouldn't just depend on breastmilk if you are vaxing--even healthy babies need help with vaxes. IMHO , the 3000 mg of C sounds great. I don't vax, but there is no way I would even take my child to a well visit without a major dose of C for days before and after.


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## GoldenGal (Jan 15, 2008)




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## Ex Libris (Jan 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mombh* 
I was wondering if this is due to taking such high doses everyday for years?
did you also take bioflavonoids while you were taking the SA?
was their a particular reason for such high doses everyday? from what I understand, such high doses consistantly are more for the acute stage of something and then you would probably keep a low maintenance dose?
Is this something that is pretty common ?
does anyone know/think this would occur with the natural c like amla or acerola too?
what other factors need to be in place for this to happen??

thank you for sharing this info with us








there is so much still to learn ....

I usually only took 3-4 grams per day--that's what seemed to be my optimal daily dose. I took it with bioflavonoids every time. When I felt myself getting sick or run down, I would go up as high as about 15 grams for a few days.

The problem with oxalate build up would happen with any form of Vitamin C--all Vitamin C converts to oxalates in the body and over time can do damage to your gut (among other problems). I have landed myself in a heap of medical trouble because of this: leaky gut, yeast, weight loss, muscle loss, bad cholesterol, premature ovarian failure, neuropathy, red/swollen/tingling hands, depression, etc., etc., the list goes on. You can actually die from it--oxalates gather in the body, usually in places of old injuries (my hands, for example), and can even get into your bone marrow, heart, and other organs. It's serious stuff.

You can learn more by visiting the "Trying Low Oxalate" yahoo forum--do a search for "vitamin C" or "high dose vitamin C" for specifics. The forum is run by Susan Owens, a brilliant researcher and member of the Defeat Autism Now! Thinktank who knows more about oxalates than probably anyone in the world. I just wish I had researched this better before taking such high doses.

Kelly


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

Also, I read that oxalates come from a high protein diet -- is this true?


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## Ex Libris (Jan 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pookietooth* 
Also, I read that oxalates come from a high protein diet -- is this true?

Yes, meat can convert to oxalate, as can sugar, so I have to watch my intake of both. However, I eat a bit more meat now than I did before finding out about my oxalate problem (I only ate meat a few times a month). I would like to go vegan, but if I took meat out of my diet now, there wouldn't be much left for me to eat.

Kelly


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

I feel confused about this now. I was on the band wagon with SA being good. And I've read Linus Pauling's book (How to Live Longer and Feel Better), and lots of stuff on the internet. How do you sort out the information? Is this just because you took it at a high dose for a long time? But even many of the proponents would say that 4 grams a day is just a regular dose for maintenance.

Right now, we usually only take it when we are sick, but we take it more in the winter to ward stuff off, and sometimes I just take it just because I feel like I need it.

What do others think about this?


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

OT-- ExLibris, have you ever visited the vitamin k yahoo group? It's about oxalate problems in general, most specifically for AS kids with oxalate problems. I encountered it for a different reason so I don't have any personal experience with whether it works or not, but I thought you may be interested.

Momofmine--I'm at a point of going with what works right now. My son gets constant colds in the fall/winter (so far, anyway, he's only had 2 fall/winters to date) and he gets better, faster with the SA. Despite almost constant illness (sometimes it seemed like I should just count up the completely healthy days, I may be able to do it just on my fingers), the illnesses didn't progress into anything serious and there were fewer, milder symptoms than when my daughter was a baby/toddler. I've also seen good results health-wise, because the vitamin C is an important part of our plan to get the mercury & other toxins out (my fillings caused a lot of health problems for me and I realized that the kids got a lot bad stuff, to put it bluntly). Health/behavior improvements have been caused by daily vitamin C need going down. Once the kids are healthy, I will reevaluate and figure out what to do long-term. Right now I'm assuming I'll either find a bioflavonoid or decide on a whole foods vitamin C, but everything is subject to change.


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

I wonder indeed about SA and vitamin C as well as cooked vs raw, low carb vs. low fat, vegan vs traditional foods. It's really overwhelming to think too much about it.


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## mombh (May 6, 2003)

I know a lot of this seems confusing, iam also just trying to make some sense out of al this.
So, we know there is overwhelming evidence for SA fighting disease/pathogens etc; I wouldn't question that, if me or my kids come down with something I don't hesitate to take SA.
I guess the questions would be aimed more at long term use, everyday maintenance etc; so, is oxolate accumilation a problem for everyone???
are their other co-factors? how do you know where/when you are at that level that you need to back down?
I have also read that SA can actually help with Yeast and leaky gut so how does it also cause these???
so many questions ?????








to few answers.....sigh


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## sarahmck (Feb 11, 2005)

I posted a new thread but I'm going to post here as well, simply because I really need to know the answer quickly.

I'm almost out of SA and immediately need a lot more as my 100 kg husband has chicken pox so I'm going through 6 tsp per day. I am having trouble finding it over here in the Netherlands. However, I am finding lots of magnesium ascorbate, which is billed as buffered vitamin C. Can I use it as an alternative?


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

There's a way to mix ascorbic acid and baking soda, the ratio should be somewhere in this thread, to be equivalent to sodium ascorbate. That said, short-term I'd use probably whatever I could get my hands on rather than nothing. Hope he feels better soon!


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## mombh (May 6, 2003)

I guess any ascorbate you can get your hands on for now , while you order Sodium ascorbate. I usually get from Bronson labs, maybe they could espress ship or something.
My dh also had chicken pox as an adult, got it from dd, he was 30 yrs old and was really sick for a while there. wish I'd known about SA back then.
wishing you dh well and soon!!!!!
have you looked into homeopathics?


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Thanks Tanya! yes, I just need to stick with what works for my family for right now, too. It is overwhelming at times.

I have used calcium ascorbate, labeled as buffered vitamin C also, before I knew about sodium ascorbate. I would just use whatever you have on hand, until you can get the other.

Hope he feels better soon!


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

Ex Libris -
I am sorry to hear about your oxalate sensitivity! I take regular SA, close to 4g/day, generally to just under bowel tolerance because it seems to keep me so healthy! I had cut back, but then I was reading Levy's book and I got into it again. I would like to follow up on the oxalate risk to myself, do you have some literature recommendations?


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## Ex Libris (Jan 31, 2004)

Hi wallacesmum,
I suggest that you read around on the Trying Low Oxalates Yahoo group. Susan Owen started the discussion, and she's a researcher with the Autism Research Institute and has been working on oxalates for many years now. You can search the forum for Susan's posts on the vitamin C issue; she posts relevant articles from PubMed to support what she's saying. Or, you could search PubMed yourself for how oxalates can convert to Vitamin C.

Good luck!

Kelly

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wallacesmum* 
Ex Libris -
I am sorry to hear about your oxalate sensitivity! I take regular SA, close to 4g/day, generally to just under bowel tolerance because it seems to keep me so healthy! I had cut back, but then I was reading Levy's book and I got into it again. I would like to follow up on the oxalate risk to myself, do you have some literature recommendations?


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

Levy says the data is up in the air - vit. c seems to help with kidney stones in some situations, but when it is in combination with other factors that cause a propensity for calcium oxalates to form, then it is an issue.

The calcium forms are more likely to cause this trouble, as well as a high-oxalate intake.

It sounds like your body was a bit of a perfect storm for oxalate damage - that really sucks! I hope you find it to be reversible.

I am going to continue to look into this.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Please post back if you find anything, if you have time to share. I am interested to know also. Thanks!


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## Ex Libris (Jan 31, 2004)

Here are some articles on the Vitamin C / Oxalate connection. You can find them in PubMed using the reference numbers. You can find a lot more information at this Yahoo group. Join the group and then do an advanced search of "Susan Owens" as the author (she runs the forum) and "Vitamin C" in the subject.

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group..._Low_Oxalates/

1. Chest. 2000 Aug;118(2):561-3.[] Links

Acute renal failure, oxalosis, and vitamin C supplementation: a case report and review of the literature.

Mashour S,
Turner JF Jr,
Merrell R.

PMID: 10936161 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

2. J Am Soc Nephrol. 1996 Nov;7(11):2320-6. Links

Secondary oxalosis: a cause of delayed recovery of renal function in the
setting of acute renal failure.

Alkhunaizi AM,
Chan L.

PMID: 8959621 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

3. Kidney Int. 2006 Nov;70(10):1672.[] Links

Secondary oxalosis due to excess vitamin C intake.

Nasr SH,
Kashtanova Y,
Levchuk V,
Markowitz GS.

PMID: 17080154 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

4. Eur J Clin Invest. 1998 Sep;28(9):695-700.[] Links

Relative hyperoxaluria, crystalluria and haematuria after megadose
ingestion of vitamin C.

Auer BL,
Auer D,
Rodgers AL.

PMID: 9767367 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

5. Nephron. 1989;51(4):536-9. Related Articles, Links

Effect of vitamin C supplementation on renal oxalate deposits in
five-sixths nephrectomized rats.

Ono K, Ono H, Ono T, Kikawa K, Oh Y.

Ono Geka Clinic, Fukuoka, Japan.

PMID: 2739830 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

6. Am J Kidney Dis. 1986 Dec;8(6):450-4. Related Articles, Links

Bone oxalate in a long-term hemodialysis patient who ingested high
doses of vitamin C.

Ott SM, Andress DL, Sherrard DJ.

PMID: 3812476 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

7. Klin Wochenschr. 1987 Jan 15;65(2):97-100. Related Articles, Links

Excessive myocardial calcinosis in a chronic hemodialyzed patient.

Zazgornik J, Balcke P, Rokitansky A, Schmidt P, Kopsa H, Minar E,
Graninger W.

PMID: 3560789 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

8. Clin Nephrol. 1986 Nov;26(5):239-43. Related Articles, Links

Secondary hyperoxalemia caused by vitamin C supplementation in regular
hemodialysis patients.

Ono K.

PMID: 3802587 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

subbing


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## Jojo F. (Apr 7, 2007)

Subbing too, I will TRY my hardest to read this.whole.thread.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

How much emergen-C should I give my 3 1/2 year old & my 2 year old?? Half a packet? One?


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I read most of the thread (skimmed a lot honestly). I was sort of surprised to read that sodium ascorbate is difficult for many of you to find. The vitamin C tablets my grocery store sells (Publix Chewable) are sodium ascorbate as the first (and main) ingredient. They are very inexpensive too. Sure, they have a couple fillers (like sugar for instance so it is chewable and tastes decent) but I can live with it since it is such a small amount.


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## PapaT (Oct 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara* 
If I said that, put a link up please, because that is not what I meant to say, or meant to have it interpretted.

The iron balance is something that's a very fine balance. If you do a google search using Iron + infection, you will see that not enough iron, and you are susceptible to infection, and too much, and as you say, bacteria can have a field day.

Except diphtheria. Diptheria toxin cannot make mayhem *until* the iron is depleted, so there are "exceptions" to the rule. I suspect the same may also apply to other bacteria which are "operated" by a virus called bacteriophages, which switch on toxin producing genes as well, but I can't find much on the others.

I guess it depends on the person. This year is the first year I've missed three periods, so had the gaps stretch out, and its the first year where I've finally lost the tag of chronic anaemia.

If there is anything bacterial around, I'm a moving target, but then, with my immune system, that's probably not surprising.

Yes, I agree with that. And another reason not to use formula which has a much higher protein index than breastmilk, and that feeds the badies too.

Do you have an updated map of selenium deficiency in USA? This is the only one I could find, and its out of date. If you know where there is a newer one, can you post it?

http://www.saanendoah.com/map1.html

Yeah, but I couldn't eat enough mustard to do me much good.

All our soils are deficient so I take 150 mcgs a day, when I can't get brazil nuts. Ones that are designed for our soil deficiencies, not yours...If you've read the nutrition/immunology thread, you will know that I hammer minerals
















Yes, but it might not just be yeast, but also some of the other anaerobes, and lack of sulphur...
Where does that come from? It took my midwife three contractions with a brand new pair of scissor, which were blunted to cut through the leather than was my amniotic sac with the last labour? Yes, I bled more, but that was from the damage they did in my uterus in the first birth.

That is pretty stupid really, because vitamin C is the base foundation of glucosamine absorption and collagen, and skin protection. Without vitamin C, none of those three things will have good strength. Therefore, for the natural birth people to suggest that, flies in the face of all the known biochemistry that goes along with vitamin C.








:

I have ascorbic acid which is yucky to taste. So have added the same amount of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) as vitamin c & when the water stops fizzing, drink it down easily. Thanks to everyone for this thread!


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

I haven't been able to find anything to figure out how to know whether one is susceptible to oxalate build-up, except that anyone with renal problems should probably avoid SA or find a medical professional to work with. I do notice that a lot of the literature pointing to oxalate damage from Vit. C references ascorbic acid, not SA, and there is always some background that is not complete (how could one possibly assess a comprehensive background in the ER with a new admit who is under stress?).

So, one thing I have been looking at is the way SA works in the body. One of it's most powerful characteristics is that it is an antioxidant, so adding lots of antioxidant whole foods and reducing SA intake might be one way of reducing exposure for those concerned.


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

I don't think they distinguish between SA and ascorbic acid in the medical literature -- ascorbic acid just means vitamin C. I have heard that people with yeast overgrowth are susceptible to oxalate buildup.


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

I agree that they don't distinguish, and I have heard that even Klenner was sloppy about this in his writing. However, many people that I know who take vit. c don't know about SA, and many hfs don't carry it. Therefore, I don't think it is safe to assume that an admit was taking one or the other, if the lit doesn't specify. I don't know that it would be a factor either way with oxalates, though.


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## Anne2008 (Nov 17, 2008)

Awesome thread I have read every page!
MT are you still around??

I have a couple questions if anyone is still following this thread...

*When I go to buy some SA, will it have citrus bioflavonoids in it already, or do I need to buy those seperate aswell?

*Which form of SA is best, tablet, liquid or powder?

*Should we be taking SA throughout the day, or just once in the morning and once at night is ok? -Because it becomes inactive in the body after 30 minutes, so it won't all get absorbed if you take a large amount all in one go?

*Does heat really damage SA? This thread said it does, but then the person who made that claim went on to say they mix it with HOT WATER...so Im unsure?


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

MT was banned.

I don't know of any SA brands that have bioflavonoids added, so yes, those would be a separate supplement.

There are only powder or capsule versions of SA, and all are equal as far as I know.

I would take throughout the day in times of illness to reach bowel tolerance, otherwise if you have a health issue that SA keeps at bay 2-3x day is sufficient. You are right all one dosage will not get absorbed (thus the bowel reactions from unabsorbed SA).

Yes heat damages vitamin C.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Ahhh this thread is like a walk down memory lane.... I remember when I still felt it was safe to consume heaps of vitamin supplements made in China....

Those were the days.


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## Marnica (Oct 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
MT was banned.

I don't know of any SA brands that have bioflavonoids added, so yes, those would be a separate supplement.

There are only powder or capsule versions of SA, and all are equal as far as I know.

I would take throughout the day in times of illness to reach bowel tolerance, otherwise if you have a health issue that SA keeps at bay 2-3x day is sufficient. You are right all one dosage will not get absorbed (thus the bowel reactions from unabsorbed SA).

Yes heat damages vitamin C.

Why was MT banned?


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## Anne2008 (Nov 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
MT was banned.

I don't know of any SA brands that have bioflavonoids added, so yes, those would be a separate supplement.

There are only powder or capsule versions of SA, and all are equal as far as I know.

I would take throughout the day in times of illness to reach bowel tolerance, otherwise if you have a health issue that SA keeps at bay 2-3x day is sufficient. You are right all one dosage will not get absorbed (thus the bowel reactions from unabsorbed SA).

Yes heat damages vitamin C.

Oh ok, thanks for replying. When people say about "bowel tolerance", what's the symptom of this, diarhea?

I'm a bit concerned about what a previous poster said about Vitamin C turning into "oxolates"? in the body, which are toxic or something? I will try to look into this further before taking it as a supplement I think. IF anyone knows anything please advise.


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marnica* 
Why was MT banned?

I think it had to do with some of the info she posted about vaccines. But I think we're not even supposed to discuss why people are banned.

As far as oxalates, it is true that large amounts of ascorbate can convert into oxalates, and this is more of a problem if you have yeast issues. There are types of probiotics that consume oxalates, and if your gut is off, there may not be enough of them to consume any dietary oxalates.
See:
http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/pharm/ascorbic.htm
"Some ascorbic acid is metabolised to inactive compounds including
ascorbic acid-2-sulfate and oxalic acid (McEvoy, 1993;
Dollery, 1991)."
and:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11156698
But then:
http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorba...rbate-lies.htm
and:
http://www.orthomolecular.org/resour...s/v01n07.shtml
?


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anne2008* 
Oh ok, thanks for replying. When people say about "bowel tolerance", what's the symptom of this, diarhea?


Yes or lots of gas. Basically if your body is not absorbing the C, it dumps into intestines and boy it can "clean you out"! The key is to take as much at a time in the amount that gradually allows your body to absorb it all. The digestive system is definately self limiting, so that is why if you are facing a serious illness, the IV form is so powerful. The buffered form of SA absorbs more easily than the acidic form, ascorbic acid.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Yes or lots of gas.









I thought you wrote "Yes for lots of gas." in response to the query about MT.









Pat


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## aris99 (Oct 24, 2005)

Can I ask a stupid ?? I recently read somewhere that consuming a lot of synthetic vit c can actually cause anemia and that it's best to consume "whole" foods vit c because it is more easily absorbed. So why does anyone use sodium ascorbate? Even if they were trying to recover from illness wouldn't it be better to take large doses of vit c from acerola? Is expense the reason people choose to go w/sodium ascorbate?


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## macimom (Oct 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aris99* 
Can I ask a stupid ?? I recently read somewhere that consuming a lot of synthetic vit c can actually cause anemia and that it's best to consume "whole" foods vit c because it is more easily absorbed. So why does anyone use sodium ascorbate? Even if they were trying to recover from illness wouldn't it be better to take large doses of vit c from acerola? Is expense the reason people choose to go w/sodium ascorbate?

Oh my, I am so confused on this...I just ordered a replacement bottle of SA, we flew through it since we have all been sick recently...now I'm wondering if I made the wrong choice. Would someone please shed some light on this subject???? Thank you!


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

I think the question is: can you possibly consume enough vitamin C for the contemporary pathogen and toxin load through whole food sources? I tend towards "no" for a couple of reasons.

One - I live in the northern part of north America, and even with eating only organic foods, most of which I grow myself, buy locally, or buy in bulk through certified sources, drinking lots of non-fluoridated, non-chlorinated water, and really making an effort to get everything I need, I still notice a HUGE difference if I do or don't get supplemental C, especially in the winter.

Second - Humans appear to be the ONLY species that doesn't recognize that we need C when we are deficient. The early doctors who studied scurvy in sailors noted this. One reason for this may be that we have the gene for synthesizing C, but it isn't turned on. Since it doesn't take much C to keep from getting scurvy, humans have managed to perpetuate this genetic anomaly. I tend to wonder if it isn't a deficiency that can be traced to the divergence of the homonid species.

So, anyway, people have survived for a really long time without a lot of C, and we have adapted pretty well. But the ease with which pathogens can move all over the globe now, as well as the tremendous load of organic and synthetic toxins that have been added to our food and immediate and general environment, can easily outstrip our evolutionary defenses. Furthermore, the sophisticated application of the division of labor has led to a situation where we produce huge amounts of goods and services, but our individual lives (generally speaking) are physically and intellectually specialized, which seems to result in high levels of prolonged stress. These increases in stress response seem to make us more susceptible to disease as well.

So, that's some of the reason why supplemental C makes sense to me.

Now, that said, oxalate toxicity in some folks seems to be a poorly-understood phenomenon that carries great risk for certain individuals. At least, I am having a lot of trouble finding any conclusive research on it, although there is a lot of research showing that it IS a problem for some folks. I think it is fair to say that vitamin C therapy is very low risk, but it is clearly not NO risk.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aris99* 
Can I ask a stupid ?? I recently read somewhere that consuming a lot of synthetic vit c can actually cause anemia and that it's best to consume "whole" foods vit c because it is more easily absorbed. So why does anyone use sodium ascorbate? Even if they were trying to recover from illness wouldn't it be better to take large doses of vit c from acerola? Is expense the reason people choose to go w/sodium ascorbate?


is this what you're talking about? https://www.drbenkim.com/sunshop/ind...ct_detail&p=48


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

so that whole post, and you were just asking about SA versus acerola - I feel silly







How do the ratios compare?


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## aris99 (Oct 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yulia_R* 
is this what you're talking about? https://www.drbenkim.com/sunshop/ind...ct_detail&p=48

Not that in particular but one like that. I had been taking SA on a daily basis and giving it to my kids...I am really paranoid about deficiencies because my son has severe food aversions and when he was about 2.5 yo he started having pain when walking and other symptoms and nobody would listen to me when I said there was something wrong w/him. He was being seen by therapists, peds etc etc and nobody else saw that there was anything wrong until he ended up in the ER w/scurvy! After months of experimenting I was able to come up w/a homemade nutritional drink that he would drink....the hospital had told me he'd need a feeding tube.

After reading a thread here about SA I started giving it to my kids...1/4-1/2 teaspoon a day. But now I'm not sure that this is the best thing for them. So I bought a bottle of healthforce vegan vit c powder but it's SO expensive!!!!


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## aris99 (Oct 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wallacesmum* 







so that whole post, and you were just asking about SA versus acerola - I feel silly







How do the ratios compare?

Wallacesmum...thank-you for your reply anyway...it had a lot of info that I hadn't considered before! As for ratios, we were taking source naturals SA 1/4-1/2 teaspoon a day and are now taking something like 270mg of acerola powder vit c. Seems adequate...supposed to be more easily absorbed? My youngest dd (born a micro...only 25lbs at 3 yo) seems to have digestive probs so I dropped back to about 1/8 teas. SA. She seems to tolerate the acerola better but then it's at a much lower dose.

If someone happened to be a millionaire and had the choice of vit c's and suddenly got very sick would it be better for them to take acerola powder in greater volume to equal the vit c of SA or is there a reason why acerola would still not be the vit c of choice?


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aris99* 
Wallacesmum...thank-you for your reply anyway...it had a lot of info that I hadn't considered before! As for ratios, we were taking source naturals SA 1/4-1/2 teaspoon a day and are now taking something like 270mg of acerola powder vit c. Seems adequate...supposed to be more easily absorbed? My youngest dd (born a micro...only 25lbs at 3 yo) seems to have digestive probs so I dropped back to about 1/8 teas. SA. She seems to tolerate the acerola better but then it's at a much lower dose.

If someone happened to be a millionaire and had the choice of vit c's and suddenly got very sick would it be better for them to take acerola powder in greater volume to equal the vit c of SA or is there a reason why acerola would still not be the vit c of choice?

I don't know, but I remember JaneS saying at one point that you couldn't take acerola in the higher doses that you can do with SA. I don't know if I am just making that up, because I can't remember where now. But I do remember that she said her ds also couldn't tolerate the SA because of his digestive issues, and that's why they did the acerola (NOW brand I think).


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wallacesmum* 
I think the question is: can you possibly consume enough vitamin C for the contemporary pathogen and toxin load through whole food sources? I tend towards "no" for a couple of reasons.

One - I live in the northern part of north America, and even with eating only organic foods, most of which I grow myself, buy locally, or buy in bulk through certified sources, drinking lots of non-fluoridated, non-chlorinated water, and really making an effort to get everything I need, I still notice a HUGE difference if I do or don't get supplemental C, especially in the winter.

Second - Humans appear to be the ONLY species that doesn't recognize that we need C when we are deficient. The early doctors who studied scurvy in sailors noted this. One reason for this may be that we have the gene for synthesizing C, but it isn't turned on. Since it doesn't take much C to keep from getting scurvy, humans have managed to perpetuate this genetic anomaly. I tend to wonder if it isn't a deficiency that can be traced to the divergence of the homonid species.

So, anyway, people have survived for a really long time without a lot of C, and we have adapted pretty well. But the ease with which pathogens can move all over the globe now, as well as the tremendous load of organic and synthetic toxins that have been added to our food and immediate and general environment, can easily outstrip our evolutionary defenses. Furthermore, the sophisticated application of the division of labor has led to a situation where we produce huge amounts of goods and services, but our individual lives (generally speaking) are physically and intellectually specialized, which seems to result in high levels of prolonged stress. These increases in stress response seem to make us more susceptible to disease as well.

So, that's some of the reason why supplemental C makes sense to me.

Now, that said, oxalate toxicity in some folks seems to be a poorly-understood phenomenon that carries great risk for certain individuals. At least, I am having a lot of trouble finding any conclusive research on it, although there is a lot of research showing that it IS a problem for some folks. I think it is fair to say that vitamin C therapy is very low risk, but it is clearly not NO risk.


Great post, thank you!!

But, so is there a way to know if you have or are starting to get oxalate toxicity?


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Hmm, well I just went and read the info on the acerola cherry powder Vit C at Dr Ben Kim's website, and it sounds like you can take that in high doses. He says: "Another important feature of this product is that you can take much more than the recommended serving size of 1.5 teaspoon if your situation requires it. Because it is made from real food - acerola cherries - and doesn't contain any synthetic nutrients, you can take as much as you need without any fear of toxicity."

So, I wonder if the oxalate sensitivity/toxicity thing could be related to taking synthetic Vitamin C? I wonder if it would be a problem with the acerola, as he recommends. It would be interesting to email him about that and ask what he thinks.


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

I think JaneS's experience with SA vs acerola was that her bowel tolerance was lower with the acerola, that's what she meant by not being able to take as much--but she felt the higher dose she could take with SA was important for her for the toxic load issues that wallacesmum posted so clearly about.

The kids and I have had good results lowering our toxic loads using SA (and other supps, but the SA has been a very significant part of what we're doing) but we haven't tried acerola or the other food-based vitamin C's. At this point, since it's been more than a year, I think we're not prone to oxalate problems, but I don't know how one would figure that out beforehand.


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

I believe it is Ex Libris on this thread who has oxalate problems. She might have more info about early signs of toxicity.


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## kjbrown92 (Dec 13, 2007)

Wow, that took 2.5 hours to read. Whew. So during the reading, I bought some Nutribiotic corn-free SA in powder form. I would like to use it for the whole family. DH has been using Ester-C, but after he's finished with that (big) bottle, I'll have him switch too.

Family:
me: no dairy, soy, gluten. probably yeast problems. generally healthy.
DH: 200 lbs., just found out he had a hole in his heart (ASD), allergy-induced asthma, on 3 daily prescriptions for it. From my reading, it sounds like this could help his allergies? maybe he could decrease his prescriptions after a while?
DD1: 80 lbs. 11 yo, no food issues, no yeast, but she does have allergies (dust, cats). Again, it should be good even for her because of the allergies? She actually has a lot of citrus (lemon, grapefruit, orange juice).
DS: 60 lbs, 8yo. Intolerant: orange (highly), chicken, turkey, gluten, lemon, lime, dairy (highly), soy, potato, and a host of others. So far all the Vitamin C I'd seen had some form of citrus in it. But I ordered the Nutribiotic because it seemed safe for him. Do I need to worry about the oxalate thing for him?
DD2: 35 lbs., 3yo, intolerant to beef, dairy, gluten, soy, corn (highly), and numerous other things (including most citrus). As far as I can tell she doesn't have any yeast issues.

No one is sick right now, so I just do the maintenance dose of 50mg/kg of body weight for kids and 100mg/kg body weight for adults that MT said? Or am I supposed to figure out the bowel tolerance thing instead? Or is that only when someone is sick?

I'm sure with all the food restrictions, we all need the Vitamin C. And I'm trying to make good choices on supplements when we do need them.


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

The way I figure my dosage is roughly bowel tolerance. I would only dose to tolerance if I were ill, but I find that I can determine my general need for supplemental C by my bowel movements (isn't this a lovely conversation?). So, I have a sense of the consistency that they should be, and, as long as I am getting plenty of whole fiber, I add or up my C if they are not. I tend to get constipated right before and during my period, and that also seems to be a time when I need more C.


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## nichole (Feb 9, 2004)

My five year old weighs 40 pounds which is roughly 20 kg.

20 kg *50 mg/kg = 1000 mg = 1g

Hmm that would be a lot for me on a healthy day. Maybe if I spread it out through out the day, I could tolerate it, but my son seems to do well on 500mg or more when sick. I would start slow, b/c you don't want to have so much diarrhea that becomes a problem.

SA helps me with my allergies. I only take it when sick or when my allergies are bothering me. I would make sure it doesn't interfere with any of his medications. Also Vit C can interfere with anestesia so stop it at least 24 hours before surgery.

I don't know about the oxalate thing. Occasionally when sick I think it is fine. For my allergies and autoimmune problems, it seems worth the risk right now.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kjbrown92* 
Wow, that took 2.5 hours to read. Whew. So during the reading, I bought some Nutribiotic corn-free SA in powder form. I would like to use it for the whole family. DH has been using Ester-C, but after he's finished with that (big) bottle, I'll have him switch too.

Family:
me: no dairy, soy, gluten. probably yeast problems. generally healthy.
DH: 200 lbs., just found out he had a hole in his heart (ASD), allergy-induced asthma, on 3 daily prescriptions for it. From my reading, it sounds like this could help his allergies? maybe he could decrease his prescriptions after a while?
DD1: 80 lbs. 11 yo, no food issues, no yeast, but she does have allergies (dust, cats). Again, it should be good even for her because of the allergies? She actually has a lot of citrus (lemon, grapefruit, orange juice).
DS: 60 lbs, 8yo. Intolerant: orange (highly), chicken, turkey, gluten, lemon, lime, dairy (highly), soy, potato, and a host of others. So far all the Vitamin C I'd seen had some form of citrus in it. But I ordered the Nutribiotic because it seemed safe for him. Do I need to worry about the oxalate thing for him?
DD2: 35 lbs., 3yo, intolerant to beef, dairy, gluten, soy, corn (highly), and numerous other things (including most citrus). As far as I can tell she doesn't have any yeast issues.

No one is sick right now, so I just do the maintenance dose of 50mg/kg of body weight for kids and 100mg/kg body weight for adults that MT said? Or am I supposed to figure out the bowel tolerance thing instead? Or is that only when someone is sick?

I'm sure with all the food restrictions, we all need the Vitamin C. And I'm trying to make good choices on supplements when we do need them.


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## New_Natural_Mom (Dec 21, 2007)

subbing


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## nataliachick7 (Apr 3, 2007)

Can anyone tell me if sodium ascorbate is better in powder form than in tablet form, or does it make no difference? i found both powder and tablets online and i dont know which to buy. THANKS!


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## MyLittleWonders (Feb 16, 2004)

I use powder/crystals because I mix mine with a smoothie or in a small glass of water/juice. It's also easier to hide if I need to dose-up any of the boys when they are sick.


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## AprilM (Sep 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ex Libris* 
Hello,
I just wanted to let everyone know of my experience regarding high dose Vitamin C. I've been taking anywhere from 4-15 mg a day of sodium ascorbate for the last 3 years, depending on need. This last year I began having problems with my hands--they would get red and swollen throughout the day. I saw several doctors, none of whom could diagnose the problem.

Turns out that I have developed an oxalate problem because Vitamin C can convert to oxalates in the body (similar to what kidney stones are made of, except the oxalates are deposited--and wreak havoc--throughout the body rather than the kidneys).

I found this out because my ASD son has a problem with oxalates, too, and when reading around on the oxalate yahoo group, red hands were mentioned as one (of many) symptoms. I now have to be on a low oxalate diet to encourage my body to dump the excess oxalates. Not fun.

I'm not saying this could happen to everyone; I just wanted to share my experience in case it might apply to others.

Kelly

Ok....this scares me. I was reading through this thread and was totally convinced I was going to start my 7 month old baby on daily C regime until I read this.


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## Ex Libris (Jan 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AprilM* 
Ok....this scares me. I was reading through this thread and was totally convinced I was going to start my 7 month old baby on daily C regime until I read this.

This should be taken seriously. If anyone wants to learn about vitamin C and it's conversion to oxalates should subscribe to the Yahoo group Trying Low Oxalates or check out the website (for an overview): http://lowoxalate.info/index.html The moderator/owner is Susan Owens, and she is one of the world's most knowledgeable people on oxalates (she almost died as a result of them years ago and has been studying oxalates and sulfur chemistry ever since). She's got several graduate degrees in the sciences and works in conjunction with the Autism Research Group to study the effects of the low oxalate diet for kids on the spectrum, as well as others with chronic health problems (such as fibromyalgia, CF, and crohns). She backs up everything she says with medical studies--you'll see a long list of pub med references after almost every post she makes. She has studied the vitamin C issue extensively, and it is a concern in the quantities suggested on this forum, especially for those with yeast, leaky gut, or people who have taken antibiotics recently or used them heavily in the past (the antibiotics kill of the friendly bacteria that degrade oxalates).

The signs of oxalate problems vary somewhat by individual because oxalates tend to accumulate in areas of prior injuries. So if you have pains in those places since being on vitamin C, it's might be the oxalates. Also, it can get into bones, joints, and nerves, so you might experience pain in those areas. Also, these tend to be somewhat universal symptoms--frequent or urgent or painful urination (especially frequent), and red hands. Some also experience digestive disturbances, sleep problems, pain in the vulvar area (called vulvodinya), and brain fog. Plus a whole host of other things.

But as Susan has said, there is no test for oxalates. The only way to tell if you have a problem with oxalates is to go on the low oxalate diet (including stopping the vitamin C) for about 2 weeks. If you feel better at first and then feel worse, you have a problem. In other words, you stop the oxalate intake (which makes you feel better), which then causes the body to start dumping stored oxalates (which then makes you feel worse). If you experience no change, you're fine.

I wish I had known this a long time ago.

Kelly


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Ex Libris....that is scary. I'm so sorry you had to go through that! I'm wondering though....why does she not like the standard urine test for oxalates? It is run by pretty mainstream labs. Just curious. It's used by many doctors who specialize in environmental medicine as well as autism.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ex Libris* 
She has studied the vitamin C issue extensively, and it is a concern in the quantities suggested on this forum, especially for those with yeast, leaky gut, or people who have taken antibiotics recently or used them heavily in the past (the antibiotics kill of the friendly bacteria that degrade oxalates).

The signs of oxalate problems vary somewhat by individual because oxalates tend to accumulate in areas of prior injuries. So if you have pains in those places since being on vitamin C, it's might be the oxalates. Also, it can get into bones, joints, and nerves, so you might experience pain in those areas. Also, these tend to be somewhat universal symptoms--frequent or urgent or painful urination (especially frequent), and red hands. Some also experience digestive disturbances, sleep problems, pain in the vulvar area (called vulvodinya), and brain fog. Plus a whole host of other things.

But as Susan has said, there is no test for oxalates. The only way to tell if you have a problem with oxalates is to go on the low oxalate diet (including stopping the vitamin C) for about 2 weeks. If you feel better at first and then feel worse, you have a problem. In other words, you stop the oxalate intake (which makes you feel better), which then causes the body to start dumping stored oxalates (which then makes you feel worse). If you experience no change, you're fine.

I wish I had known this a long time ago.

Kelly

So, once you stop the C and go on a low-oxalate diet, the symptoms can reverse?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Panserbjørne* 
Ex Libris....that is scary. I'm so sorry you had to go through that! I'm wondering though....why does she not like the standard urine test for oxalates? It is run by pretty mainstream labs. Just curious. It's used by many doctors who specialize in environmental medicine as well as autism.

Is this a test you can take to see if you are someone who is sensitive to this and might want to use the C with caution?


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## Ex Libris (Jan 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
So, once you stop the C and go on a low-oxalate diet, the symptoms can reverse?

Yes, the damage can be reversed over time as you dump stored oxalates from tissues.

Quote:

Is this a test you can take to see if you are someone who is sensitive to this and might want to use the C with caution?
A urinary oxalate test can only tell you what your body is excreting, not what is stored in your tissues. In fact, a low oxalate output via urine (which might make you think you don't have an oxalate problem) is more likely to mean you are not a good excreter. I had an organic acid test which tests for oxalates and my number came back low, even though I have stored a huge amount from the sodium ascorbate.

Kelly


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Kelly,
Thanks for the reply. I hadn't yet gotten around to researching the test, but assumed it was something of that nature. I appreciate it!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ex Libris* 
She has studied the vitamin C issue extensively, and it is a concern in the quantities suggested on this forum, especially for those with yeast, leaky gut, or people who have taken antibiotics recently or used them heavily in the past (the antibiotics kill of the friendly bacteria that degrade oxalates).


I wonder if this is an issue when vit C is taken in conjunction with "good bacteria", whole food probiotics which recolonize the gut. To me, it still seems to ignore the root solution. Avoiding something healthy, such as vit C, or nutrient dense foods which happen to be high in oxylates doesn't seem to address the *reason* these become issues for an individual body.

Our SAD is so sterilized of the native microbials and nutrient density that traditional diets consumed. I believe that is where the "problem" originates.

(Yes, and throw in over use of antibiotics in our health care system and our food system, of course.)

Pat


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Pat, this is yet another detox pathways issue. When the paths are narrowed oxalates are allowed to build up. That is why people with oxalate issue can't often tolerate an epsom salt soak. It doesnt' harm them but it feels uncomfortable (needle pricks) and causes flushing....specifically to the ears and face. It can also make them hyperactive.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Panserbjørne* 
Pat, this is yet another detox pathways issue. When the paths are narrowed oxalates are allowed to build up. That is why people with oxalate issue can't often tolerate an epsom salt soak. It doesnt' harm them but it feels uncomfortable (needle pricks) and causes flushing....specifically to the ears and face. It can also make them hyperactive.

Stop confusing me.









I have my theories and I'm not open to more information.









Pat


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

:l ol























that's what I suspected.








:


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

The folks at the vitamin k yahoo group deal specifically with kids (and adults) who have poor tolerance for oxalates. They've got a protocol using fat soluble vitamins and VSL#3 among other things to help improve oxalate clearance, with the goal of not needing to stay on a low oxalate diet long-term. It's not our issue, so I can't attest to how it works, but it seems that some people are finding it helpful.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TanyaLopez* 
The folks at the vitamin k yahoo group deal specifically with kids (and adults) who have poor tolerance for oxalates. They've got a protocol using fat soluble vitamins and VSL#3 among other things to help improve oxalate clearance, with the goal of not needing to stay on a low oxalate diet long-term. It's not our issue, so I can't attest to how it works, but it seems that some people are finding it helpful.









:

The idea behind both is to create a concentration gradient - by lowering the oxalates in the gut, the body moves them from tissue to gut for excretion. One way of lowering them in the gut is to not eat them. Another is to have oxalate degrading bacteria in your gut. There are some really specific strains that are good at that, and bifido-bacteria are supposed to be good as well. VSL#3 has the bifidus.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Interesting. Thanks for sharing your insights.

Pat


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

it's amazing how it all comes back to gut health, isnt' it?


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
There are some really specific strains that are good at that, and bifido-bacteria are supposed to be good as well. VSL#3 has the bifidus.

DID YOU SEE THE PRICE ON THOSE PROBIOTICS?!?! $2.90 A DOSE.

How long are you supposed to take them? They have a lot of probiotics per pkt. at least.

Pat


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

yikes. That reminds me of the custom probiotics that I used to get for ds2.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Yeah, it's kind of crazy. I've heard you can make yogurt with it as a starter, and that helps stretch them, but the culture won't last indefinitely. There was also someone talking (I have no idea where) about how she worked in a lab and they tested their ability to colonize the gut with a single dose of some oxalo-whatever bacteria sludge. She said it was absolutely disgusting, but it worked.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
and they tested their ability to colonize the gut with a single dose of some oxalo-whatever bacteria sludge. She said it was absolutely disgusting, but it worked.

Well, there is that...









Pat


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Wow, that's very interesting about the VSL #3. I had been wondering about trying that for us. I think the ped GI mtn.mama saw recommended that one for them. But it had some additives or sweeteners in it, I think.


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## WCM (Dec 15, 2007)

Wow. I read every word of every page. I really hope I do not ask something that was already asked.

So taking into account the oxolate issue that came up for another user, yet the overall concensus (I have the books mentioned on hold, I will read them) that supplemental Vit C/sodium ascorbate in the powder form is a good thing for your entire system, it makes sense to me to start taing it, perhaps not in the uber high maintenance dose, but still in a dose on the high side of things.

okay. I can do that.

I don't drink juice, or smoothies. Just water and tea. So is mixing it in water still a decent option, and won't taste horrid? if I mixed it WITH some Emergen-C for the kids, in water, to mask any SA taste, would that work do you think?

Next, I recall MT saying that if she feels an illness coming on , she waits to see if it's mucosal, a cold, or not. If it's NOT a cold, she loads on the extra SA, but if it IS a cld she backs off on the SA until it's finished in her system.

Why? Is this a practice that makes sense, in your understanding of SA?

To get all my questons out at once, I've also read the first 20-odd pages of the mmunology 101 sticky . . . but it just bowls me over, I cannot get a firm grip on any of it, as it so complex and ALL so specific and new to me (and I used to work in supplements and nursing). Is there another way I can start, just start, to get a handle on this sort of immune system information? A book? I understand, purely in a nursing degree way, how the immune system works. but in terms of testing my soil and adding missing nutrients and knowing what's low in the farms in my area where I buy our foods, whoa. I'm already lost.

With all the food aversions and varied dietary needs of our household of 5, I need to supplement for some things, in addition to having a healthy, whole foods (but not TF) diet. I want to get a rasp on how to give our bodies what they need to have the strong immunity they need.

Oh and, a page back or so, a user said this thread is like memory lane, 'back when you could buy supplements made in China without worry'. Okay, I avoid MIC foods etc . . . so is there guaranteed NA sources of SA out there? I have access to the natural factors chews that MT refers to for travel, but I want a daily powder that is safe also.

Thank you in advance for your help. I am so glad I am able to ask this of such knowledgeable people.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
Another is to have oxalate degrading bacteria in your gut. There are some really specific strains that are good at that, and bifido-bacteria are supposed to be good as well. VSL#3 has the bifidus.

Both lactobacillus and bifidobacteria have been shown to degrade oxalates in studies.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WCM* 
I don't drink juice, or smoothies. Just water and tea. So is mixing it in water still a decent option, and won't taste horrid? if I mixed it WITH some Emergen-C for the kids, in water, to mask any SA taste, would that work do you think?


Why even use Emergen C at all? it contains a bunch of other stuff in it and is very expensive.

Quote:

To get all my questons out at once, I've also read the first 20-odd pages of the mmunology 101 sticky . . . but it just bowls me over, I cannot get a firm grip on any of it, as it so complex and ALL so specific and new to me (and I used to work in supplements and nursing). Is there another way I can start, just start, to get a handle on this sort of immune system information? A book? I understand, purely in a nursing degree way, how the immune system works. but in terms of testing my soil and adding missing nutrients and knowing what's low in the farms in my area where I buy our foods, whoa. I'm already lost.

With all the food aversions and varied dietary needs of our household of 5, I need to supplement for some things, in addition to having a healthy, whole foods (but not TF) diet. I want to get a rasp on how to give our bodies what they need to have the strong immunity they need.
I think there is no easy answer to this. You just have to follow whatever path that you are on and take it where it leads you, Grasshopper!







Believe me we are all confused in some way most of the time.

Just one book or organization won't have the whole answer for your and your family. Now *I* would say Weston Price and his book "Nutrition & Physical Degeneration" is most of the way there.







But even there are issues with his foundation WAPF being complex and open to interpretation. And of course there are issues with dealing with a damaged body, interventionist medicine and toxic world many generations later that perhaps needs much more support than a whole foods TF diet is able to offer.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
DID YOU SEE THE PRICE ON THOSE PROBIOTICS?!?! $2.90 A DOSE.

How long are you supposed to take them? They have a lot of probiotics per pkt. at least.

Pat


I have heard many reports of VSL and all of them say they were great while you were taking them but not when you stop. I wonder if it had to do with how they colonize and if they actually attach to the epithelial cells. Otherwise they would be like kefir or yogurt, just offering transient benefits while you take them. However, unlike most dairy ferments, they do contain bifido, which I think is essential for a really damaged gut. Bifido numbers 10x more than lactobacillus and dominates the large intestine. It plays a large role in keeping candida numbers down even in adults.


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## WCM (Dec 15, 2007)

thanks Jane.







I hear you that one book won't say it all, I just meant is there a good book I can 'start' with, just to get the basics, to get a general gist, so that over time, as I revisit the thread, the info in the immunology thread won't feel so overwhelming, and I can begin to incorporate that knowledge into my life..

The Emergen-C thing was part of wondering how straight SA in water tastes? That I'd add a touch of Emer-C if needed to make it more pallatable for my kids, kwim?


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## TexasSuz (Mar 4, 2002)

One of these days I am going to have an entire weekend free to read this thread. Until then, can someone recommend a chewable form of SA for kids? It has to taste good because my four year old is tough! My son will take it in any form but not her!


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## WCM (Dec 15, 2007)

TS, I just kept this thread open and read it in any free time over a week.









Another well-informed user recommends a chewable SA made by Natural Factors. Not expensive, but made here in Canada so you could get it sent by a friend or???

I think there's some concern with the chewable C damaging tooth enamel over time, but then others fet anything was better than nothing? So whatever feels right for you.


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## TexasSuz (Mar 4, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WCM* 
TS, I just kept this thread open and read it in any free time over a week.









Another well-informed user recommends a chewable SA made by Natural Factors. Not expensive, but made here in Canada so you could get it sent by a friend or???

I think there's some concern with the chewable C damaging tooth enamel over time, but then others fet anything was better than nothing? So whatever feels right for you.

Well, the high doses of SA seem to "cure" my son every time he gets close to being sick (2,000-3,000 mg for a 48 pound boy). But I can't get ANY in my daughter when she gets ill so we all suffer.







My local Whole Foods appears to sell Natural Factors so I will pick some up and give it a try! Thank you so much!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

bumping.

Pat


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

So, at some point, either in this thread or one of Momtezuma Tuatara's threads, it was mentioned that calcium ascorbate, in a pinch, is okay. Problematic long-term, but if your kid's sick and that's all that's at your local store, go for it.

Um... could be problematic for some kids. I admit, I was an idiot, and my situation is not normal--but I should've known my situation is atypical and READ THE LABEL!









Got a bottle of calcium ascorbate here, about 4 grams of vitamin C has 470mg of calcium. Okay, fine. But a sick kid may need a lot, and a kid with a high toxic load may need a lot.

If, for example, your child's bowel tolerance is 16 grams per day, that's almost 1900 mg of supplemental calcium. Holy yikes. Bad for kids with calcium regulation problems--which is not typical, but I knew that was an issue for us.





























It's been a week of no naps and hyperactive kid here.

Don't be me. I admit this is not a typical problem, but I wanted to mention it somewhere in this thread, since one or two people may benefit.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Oy! Given that most people are magnesium deficient I would imagine that there are very few who could tolerate this dose although perhaps not effects lasting a week!









Have you tried making your own SA from baking soda and ascorbic acid powder? I think the ratio is 1 part BS to 2 parts AA right? That's gotta be somwhere's on this thread but I don't have time to look right now. Stir into liquid , drink when stops fizzing.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WCM* 
The Emergen-C thing was part of wondering how straight SA in water tastes? That I'd add a touch of Emer-C if needed to make it more pallatable for my kids, kwim?

It's got a rather strong taste, kind of salty slightly bitter but it depends on how much you add, a full glass is not bad at all.

I would just add a bit of juice and forget the Emergen-C. Or even better, mix up with some necessary bioflavonoids to go with the SA by adding NOW acerola cherry powder. And a whole foods sweetener or stevia.


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Oy! Given that most people are magnesium deficient I would imagine that there are very few who could tolerate this dose although perhaps not effects lasting a week!









Have you tried making your own SA from baking soda and ascorbic acid powder? I think the ratio is 1 part BS to 2 parts AA right? That's gotta be somwhere's on this thread but I don't have time to look right now. Stir into liquid , drink when stops fizzing.

I'd already ordered more, it's the first time that they haven't shipped immediately, and I had to wait DAYS, but then my huge supply of SA arrived today, so all is good. Plus I never remember the ratio.

I'm worried about the flavor of the baking soda + AA, I don't want to make our supplement drink _too_ horrible. We've gotten into a rhythm, the kids don't complain about our 3x/day drinks (unless it's a complain-y day, but even then it's part of everything being wrong







).


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## es1967 (Oct 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TanyaLopez* 
I'd already ordered more, it's the first time that they haven't shipped immediately, and I had to wait DAYS, but then my huge supply of SA arrived today, so all is good. Plus I never remember the ratio.

I'm worried about the flavor of the baking soda + AA, I don't want to make our supplement drink _too_ horrible. We've gotten into a rhythm, the kids don't complain about our 3x/day drinks (unless it's a complain-y day, but even then it's part of everything being wrong







).

May I ask what are your 3x a day drinks for your kids? Sorry if its been asked before and I never read it.


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *es1967* 
May I ask what are your 3x a day drinks for your kids? Sorry if its been asked before and I never read it.

It's pretty specific to our situation. My health problems were directly related to the mercury from my amalgam fillings, and both kids got enough mercury and other metals and chemicals that my body couldn't detoxify over the 2 decades that I had amalgam fillings that they have health and/or behavior issues because of it. Not everyone has issues from amalgam fillings like I do, my husband wasn't having problems due to his amalgams. It runs in my family but not his.

But so the vitamins and minerals in my kids' drinks are fairly typical of people taking a biomed approach to autism and related conditions. I did type out what we were using in the Chelating Mamas thread once, not sure which page...

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...435848&page=30

It was before this, but this page is the one I link the most.


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## New_Natural_Mom (Dec 21, 2007)

I have seen people say Emergen-C is bad, but it is easy for me, so I take it. Why is it bad? Aren't all the other things in it bioflavanoids?

If not, where can I get bioflavanoids?


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## nataliachick7 (Apr 3, 2007)

Im not sure if emergen c is bad, but i get my bioflavanoids right next to the vitamin c supplements at our health food store.


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## beingmommy (Sep 4, 2008)

Hi, I am working on readin through the enormous thread but it is hard with my high needs toddler. I was wondering if anyone could help me. I was just reading on another thread that daily SA can be bad and it should only be used during illness.

I have been giving my DS ( 2 yrs old) daily SA (Hyland's Vit C) for about 6 months now. About 200-300 mg a day. I thought Vit C was safe. I had no idea it could be bad. What exactly might I have done? Have I hurt his body/health? What should I look for? What should I do? I have not given him any today. Do I just stop cold turkey? Should we see a doctor. I am worried!

UPDATE: Okay, I have managed to get through some of the thread and I think the problem is with the oxalate issue? So I think my DS is fine at this point? Sorry to panic. Just started worrying.


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## AprilM (Sep 11, 2007)

Hello....I thought I would post this here on this monster thread on SA, as I would be very interested in what you ladies think of this. A couple months back, when DS was 7 months...he is now 16 months....I came across the Vitamin C foundation. (I was trying to find all I could out about SA) They also have a community forum, so I posted a question asking about why SA over AA, dosing for my baby, daily dosing or just when ill, and I even brought the topic of oxilate problem up with them. The doctor that responds to these questions is Dr. Owen Fonoro, who I believe is an orthomolecular doctor. Anway, in a nutshell...and I will post a link to the actual convo at the end of this post....Dr. Fonoro said the following:

He said Ascorbic Acid is the preferred form of C because it is more absorbable than Sodium Ascorbate (which is totally opposite of everything I have learned here on the boards so far). He said that *verbatim* "it is immoral and should be criminal not to supplement children with vitamin C" (on a daily basis) and that as a rule of thumb, dosing should be 1 gram orally daily per year up to age 10. He advises not even skip a single dose, and that he gave his own son ascorbic acid all his life (6000 mg daily) and his son never once got sick until he went off to college.

I then asked about possible problems with oxilates (as someone in this thread ...I believe it was Ex Libris...could be wrong about that experienced problems due to daily vitamin C intake) and I wasn't happy about Dr. Fonoro's reply. He thought that the poster (Ex Libris) might have been a 'plant' of some sort just making up that story....I don't believe that AT ALL by the way.... and am confused as to why he would even say such a thing...

I then asked him about the importance of taking bioflavanoids with vit C and his response was this "In short, there is no need to take it with Bioflavs since it is the ascorbate ion (Present in all forms of Acorbate) that is responsible for the fantastic 'C' effects."....in the convo, he gives a link to a paper he wrote explaining why there is no need for the bioflavanoids....(I have heard so many on this board state the need for bioflavs to keep things in balance....so this response also confused me.

So I just wanted to get some opinions on Dr. Fonoro's advice on vitamin C from the moms of the world, I hate to say it, but I trust mother's intuition more than I do any doctor or scientists.

Here is the link to the conversation with Dr. Fonoro at the Vitamin C Foundation:

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/fo...+babies#p15902

Sorry this is so lengthy!


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## cloak (Aug 27, 2004)

He doesn't have his facts straight. Oxalate issues are real and are a sign that there are other problems in the body. If you have a yeast issue you might have high oxalate issues too. Yeast is a source of oxalate. If you are supplementing with Vit C on top of that, you will have an even bigger oxalate issue. Take care of the yeast issue and the oxalate issue will go away. Vit. C alone typically doesn't cause oxalate issues but it can contribute to it.


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## cloak (Aug 27, 2004)

Here's a little bit about it. Read the whole article for more information.

http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com...g/oxalates.asp

Quote:

Evaluate vitamin C intake. Vitamin C can break down to form oxalates. However, in adults, the amount of oxalate formed did not increase until the amount exceeded 4 g of vitamin C per day (27). A large study of more than 85,000 women found no relation betwen vitamin C intake and kidney stones (28). In addition, an evaluation of 100 children on the autistic spectrum at The Great Plains Laboratory revealed that there was nearly zero correlation between vitamin C and oxalates in the urine (Table 2). Megadoses (more than 100 mg/Kg body weight per day) of vitamin C were shown to markedly reduce autistic symptoms in a double blind placebo controlled study (29) so any restriction of vitamin C needs to be carefully weighed against its significant benefits.


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## WCM (Dec 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *New_Natural_Mom* 
I have seen people say Emergen-C is bad, but it is easy for me, so I take it. Why is it bad? Aren't all the other things in it bioflavanoids?

If not, where can I get bioflavanoids?


I've not heard that EmergeC is bad, only that it is a costly way of getting your SA. But it works for us. DS loves the taste, so he makes up his own emerC water bottle each day, while DD's, who hate the taste, chew on Natural factors chewable C for kids, and i make up my own capsules of NOW powdered C.

April's recent info about how AA is better than SA has me boggled. I know this thread is mega, but I have read it all (over 5 days) and hope the discussion continues. Right now I'm off to read the swine flu forum.


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## Ex Libris (Jan 31, 2004)

Hi AprilM,
I haven't been on MDC for awhile now and thought I'd check in, and I have to say this gave me a good laugh. I continue to battle with oxalate accumulation from high dose SA and probably will for life. The poster who mentioned the oxalate-yeast connection is correct; I no doubt had some yeast issues since I'd taken two rounds of antibiotics in the years before taking SA, which made me susceptible to accumulation. But oxalate conversion from vitamin C happens in all of us, and the process by which our bodies deal with the excess oxalates is complicated.

Oxalates are toxins, and they build up over time, so you wouldn't know the extent to which you're accumulating them in your tissues until it's too late. I wish I'd known this sooner, but, I've learned to be much more careful about what I put into my body. Nature's balance is so easily upset.

If you want to know more about the science behind oxalates, I urge you and anyone else to join the Yahoo group Trying Low Oxalates or look at this website: http://lowoxalate.info/index.html. You'll find more about the oxalate/vitamin C connection in the archives of the yahoo group. Just do an advanced search for "vitamin C" and "Susan Owens" (she's the scientist/researcher who has made the study of oxalates her life's work).

Take care,
Kelly

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AprilM* 
I then asked about possible problems with oxilates (as someone in this thread ...I believe it was Ex Libris...could be wrong about that experienced problems due to daily vitamin C intake) and I wasn't happy about Dr. Fonoro's reply. He thought that the poster (Ex Libris) might have been a 'plant' of some sort just making up that story....I don't believe that AT ALL by the way.... and am confused as to why he would even say such a thing...


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## Toolip (Mar 7, 2008)




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## AprilM (Sep 11, 2007)

Quote:

Hi AprilM,
I haven't been on MDC for awhile now and thought I'd check in, and I have to say this gave me a good laugh. I continue to battle with oxalate accumulation from high dose SA and probably will for life. The poster who mentioned the oxalate-yeast connection is correct; I no doubt had some yeast issues since I'd taken two rounds of antibiotics in the years before taking SA, which made me susceptible to accumulation. But oxalate conversion from vitamin C happens in all of us, and the process by which our bodies deal with the excess oxalates is complicated.

Oxalates are toxins, and they build up over time, so you wouldn't know the extent to which you're accumulating them in your tissues until it's too late. I wish I'd known this sooner, but, I've learned to be much more careful about what I put into my body. Nature's balance is so easily upset.

If you want to know more about the science behind oxalates, I urge you and anyone else to join the Yahoo group Trying Low Oxalates or look at this website: http://lowoxalate.info/index.html. You'll find more about the oxalate/vitamin C connection in the archives of the yahoo group. Just do an advanced search for "vitamin C" and "Susan Owens" (she's the scientist/researcher who has made the study of oxalates her life's work).

Take care,
Kelly
Hi Kelly,
Thanks for the link and the info. I didn't mean to offend you by posting that, like I said in my original post, I didn't agree with the 'plant' comment, and I never once doubted that you were telling the truth. I am sorry that you have to deal with this oxylate issue.

If you don't mind me asking, what were your first symptoms? And how did the doctors finally figure out that the problem was from SA?

April


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## herbalshakti (Jan 21, 2009)

WOW! this is a monster of a thread. don't have time to read all of the posts but I did get to some. It appears that people are gravitating towards SA becasue it provides a buffer which makes perfect sense.
I took the emergen-c packets for many years until I discovered a product by "solaray" in capsule form that was derived from amla fruit (i believe highest vit.c containing fruit) it was great until I was no longer able to find the product.
A couple of years ago I found "Truly Natural Vitamin C" by Health Force and since I already love their vitamineral green food supplement I knew that it too was a superior product.

http://www.healthforce.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=65

it is totally derived from food, acerola cherry ( i believe is 2nd in highest vit.c containg food) it is in powder form and as easy to take as any other powdered vit.c
this is the difference I notice: when taking emergen-c I would have to take a good many 1,000 mg. packs a day to reach bowel intolerance which equals many grams a day, with the healthforce product dosage is 1.5 tsp. just to get 250 mg. so I am taking many teaspoons during the day, HOWEVER, I do feel that my body absorbs more of it. I get to bowel intolerance (if thats the goal, or just before) with less.

for anyone looking for a buffered natural vit.c that is easy to take I HIGHLY reccomend this. It does not taste that bad either kind of like a mellow choke cherry taste.


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## PeonyJen (Jan 19, 2005)

Does anyone know of a sodium ascorbate brand that is dairy-free/lactose-free? My son has multiple food allergies.


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## meandk0610 (Nov 8, 2005)

i use the Now brand, have a reaction to all dairy (allergic-type), and do not react to even several grams of their sodium ascorbate.


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## Marnica (Oct 4, 2008)

I used to use the NOW brand but have discovered that their SA is derived from genetically modified corn! So No thanks! I have switched to Nutribiotic brand that is allergy friendly (my son is no dairy, no gluten, no soy etc...) I confirmed that it is not GM sourced.


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## meandk0610 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Marnica*
> 
> I used to use the NOW brand but have discovered that their SA is derived from genetically modified corn! So No thanks! I have switched to Nutribiotic brand that is allergy friendly (my son is no dairy, no gluten, no soy etc...) I confirmed that it is not GM sourced.


holy carp! i guess i won't be using them again! jeesh!


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


OMG! OMG! Seriously? Seriously. My children have about a billion food allergies, and several environmental allergies. When they take Emergen C (1000mg) they have basically no reaction. Are you telling me that maybe "allergy", for my kids, is just a Vit C deficiency, like 40x less than what they should be having in a day? My mind is blown. Now I've got 20 more pages to read and hopefully people expand more.


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gabbyraja*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


IME, it's not just a vit C deficiency, but now that I'm healthier, I can take extra vit C and extra methylation things (mostly extra B12 for me, I take a steady amount of folate and that seems okay) and my enviro allergies get better.

Histamine is cleared via methylation, so if you're low on stuff needed to make methyl groups (like folate and B12), you'll end up higher in histamine, and then if your allergen shows up (the cedar pollen blew into town a few days ago, so I got to play with this) you'll react more. For me--my methylation was really behind, and I think a few years ago it would've been harder to make an impact just with these supps, but now I can make the itchy ears and mouth go away pretty quickly.

Don't know if you saw the study that got some mainstream attention a while back--likelihood of IgE allergies is higher when blood folate levels are lower, and folate's a big player in methylation. And some people need more folate than others. The news articles I read didn't make all the connections, but this is part of it.

Also, the 250 mg/kg is a when-sick dosing, MT said 50 mg/kg when healthy. But for my kids, they needed more than that, and probably (I never tracked it closely enough) when they got one of the foods they were intolerant of, it probably would've gone up more.


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

Yes, the more I read (I finally made it through) the more I realized it's not the cause, but maybe another piece in the puzzle. A step toward healing us. Excellent read! I've got a lot more books on hold at the library due to this thread. Our reactions are IgG. I'm really beginning to think that "allergies" are like "IBS". They don't REALLY know much about them at all, they all have different causes, and there are different types lumped together. I have to find the key for us... Now I'm off to read the immunity thread, then chelating mamas!


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

Oh, so that's what I would call food intolerances. Ours are all intolerances too, and DS's reactions definitely go up and down based on how his detoxification is running. VitC helps, methylation support, a lot of nutritional support over time has helped--I mean, it's not just "start pills and 2 weeks later, you can see a difference" but over longer stretches of time, I can see distinct differences. Other stuff is going on that caused them, at least I think so, but at least I can give DS more tolerance of some of this stuff, and then he feels better so he behaves better and is easier to parent.


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

Me, too. I can do a search of the forums on methylation, but if you have a really great thread in mind on this topic, will you please link me? I'm sure my toxic mouth has had a profound effect on my kids, along with the lack of TF/probiotics in my family.


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gabbyraja*
> 
> Me, too. I can do a search of the forums on methylation, but if you have a really great thread in mind on this topic, will you please link me? I'm sure my toxic mouth has had a profound effect on my kids, along with the lack of TF/probiotics in my family.


I don't think we have just one thread, but if you aren't already, come hang out in Allergies. We're finding interesting overlaps, even with different root causes, that are helping in improving our health and/or our kids' health, and reducing their sensitivities to foods, stuff like that. The general topic of detoxification, and the nutrients that are needed to get the work done, and how/why we seem to be low (our kids because they grew in us, oftentimes us because we grew in our moms, etc), and what the genetic variants that exist that mean some people need more of various nutrients, has been a topic for, well, over a year now.


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## joanna0707 (Jan 2, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gabbyraja*
> 
> Now I'm off to read the immunity thread, then chelating mamas!


Could you please provide the link to the immunity thread?

TIA


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

I had to dig through the archives to find it. 2006 was SO long ago! http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/406983/nutrition-immunology-101-sticky-please


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## joanna0707 (Jan 2, 2009)

thanks a lot


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## stellabluz (May 24, 2006)

ANyone know off-hand what the highest amounts you can take bf-ing? baby benefits from it correct? I am at around 3,000mg for preventative this season, havent noticed anything to speak of in my three month old. I have never hit my own "limit" yet either.


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## entiti (Jan 28, 2009)

I usually can take 1 1/2 tablespoons and it puts me at the intolerant level, and my 4 month old gets pretty gassy and poos more. Later in the day if any of my nurslings are sick, I take an extra teaspoon if I feel it wearing off. Hope this helps


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## PuppyLove22 (Aug 2, 2011)

Question for you vitamin C pros =) My (almost 5 yr old) daughter is having surgery in 3 days to have her tonsils and adenoids removed. I want to give her SA after surgery to speed healing. WIll it burn her throat? Is there a juice I can give it to her in that will not bother her throat?

Also, I have a dog with severe allergies. To pretty much everything. I am thinking of starting him on some kind of high dose fit c therapy. Sodium isn't good for dogs, normally, does anyone have any good info or ideas on Vit c and dogs?

TIA


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## PuppyLove22 (Aug 2, 2011)

bump for help please =)


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## PuppyLove22 (Aug 2, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PuppyLove22*
> 
> Question for you vitamin C pros =) My (almost 5 yr old) daughter is having surgery in 3 days to have her tonsils and adenoids removed. I want to give her SA after surgery to speed healing. WIll it burn her throat? Is there a juice I can give it to her in that will not bother her throat?
> 
> ...


Nevermind on the sodium question...read through more of the thread and got the answer on that. oops...


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