# No seat belt in back seat?



## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

Hi y'all,

We are traveling from MA to NC this summer. I take 2 days in each direction because I don't drive well at night, and to break up the drive. 

I am super duper safety conscious and would NEVER normally ask such a thing, but I'm curious: Would any of you let your 15yo teen ride in the back, seat-belt-less now and then, and lie down back there, on a long trip?

Here in MA I have heard adults do not need a seat belt in the back seat, and if they are a big adult, I don't press the issue, but my son is 15 and of slight build. He's about 5'6" and about 110lb. 
He will absolutely wear his belt most of the drive, especially in the front seat. But sometimes he rides in back because he has his Travel Bin Of Stuff back there, and what-not. 

But he gets way bored, and likes to lean on the door, which I won't allow, because the shoulder belt cuts into his neck when he does that, and in case of a crash and all...you know. 

But should I now and then allow him to be beltless and lay down? Like on long stretches where there isn't really much traffic? 
I'm not taking 95 at all. I'm doing mostly Mass Pike, 84, I forgot what else but not 95. 

Thoughts? Thanks!


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## zebra15 (Oct 2, 2009)

My rule is when the car is moving everyone has seatbelts on. No exceptions.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Never. Not only will he be extremely unsafe while unrestrained, but in a crash he will become an airborne projectile and could kill you as well as himself.


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

I don't really understand the no leaning against the door rule but he definitely needs to wear a seatbelt all the time. 


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

I agree - all seatbelts, all the time.

I drive on the Mass Pike pretty frequently. "Not 95" does not make me feel better about it.


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## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

katelove said:


> I don't really understand the no leaning against the door rule


Like the OP said, leaning to one side causes the seat belt to no longer be aligned with the body. The seat belt can't do its job if the body is not in the proper position.

OP, I frequently take 1000 mile road trips up and down I-95 and no one EVER rides unbuckled. I took along a friend and her teen kids a few years back and I thought I made it clear that as long as I was driving, EVERYONE had to be buckled PROPERLY. We were splitting a rental van, so since I didn't own the car I didn't feel I could insist on making rules for her kids when she was doing the driving. I thought that if I did most of the driving, that would be a sneaky way of making sure everyone stayed upright and seated properly. Well, we hadn't made it 100 miles when her kids tucked their legs up under their butts and laid sideways on pillows. I tried all sorts of subtle ways to hint that that was unsafe, but she told me point blank that she didn't care as long as the belt was buckled. Long story short, I made her do all the driving after that and we never road-tripped together again.

My obnoxious safety-nerd rule: EVERYONE buckled PROPERLY for the ENTIRE trip. We stop to sleep at night, so during the daylight driving, everyone is expected to remain upright. (Our road trips aren't as tediously boring as I'm making them sound, I swear! LOL)


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## newmamalizzy (Jul 23, 2010)

How about trying to get a nice neck pillow or something to make resting more comfortable? I would also not be cool with the no seatbelt thing.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Nope -- for two reasons:


it isn't as safe as being appropriately belted in at all times
it teaches your teen that safety rules are optional and situational
The last one is huge. Your teen is on the verge of driving, of riding with teen drivers, and of spending significant amounts of time away from you. Everything you say and do impacts how safe he will be when is a driver, or when he is riding with a peer.

Rather than treating him like a child on this trip, I suggest engaging him in all aspects of planning and executing the trip. If he is old enough for a permit where you live, I suggest having him get his before the trip and using the trip to help him learn to drive. If not, he can still navigate (with maps or GPS), fill the tank and track gas mileage, be in charge of the budget notebook etc. The teen years are all about developing independence and life skills, and this trip present many unique opportunities.


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

blessedwithboys said:


> Like the OP said, leaning to one side causes the seat belt to no longer be aligned with the body. The seat belt can't do its job if the body is not in the proper position.
> 
> L)


Maybe it depends on the car. I could not be a passenger for any distance if I had to sit bolt upright with my feet together on the floor the whole time but there are several positions I can adopt, all of which allow the seatbelt to be properly positioned. 
Maybe some experimentation before the trip? Or a pillow or two, as NewMamaLizzy suggested?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

Linda on the move said:


> Nope -- for two reasons:
> 
> 
> it isn't as safe as being appropriately belted in at all times
> ...


I didn't even think of #2 . Great thought. He would be utterly belligerent, though, about taking part in the trip-- he's like that-- and I could not even "make" him navigate, though I try to engage him sometimes. Sometimes it works and sometimes not. He has a a bit of oppositional to him. Well, a lot. 
And I already know #1 , but I grew up in an age with no seat belts when I was really little-- my younger brother rode in the very back of the VW bug so much that we called it the "Sam Seat", and still do, even though we are both in our 50s.

Oh, and the car is a Subaru Outback wagon. Yeah, no way could I ride bolt upright for 8 hours, either. He has a neck pillow. I do allow him to put his feet on the back of the front seat (when he's sitting in back), or tucked under him, as long as the seat belt is positioned properly on his shoulder. That is why no leaning against the door-- it cuts into his neck that way, and what I did not say in the OP is if I were to crash, he could be beheaded. And I do not even want to think of that, let alone type it.

Thanks for all your opinions! I thought maybe so, but I just wanted validation. Like I said, I'm normally way too anal about safety, but I just thought I would ask.


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## StandStrong (Jul 31, 2014)

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Check out this site for some great options. Google top-11-travel-pillows allow comfort and safety.


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## alpenglow (Oct 29, 2007)

No way would I allow lying down without a belt. Or lying down. Maybe ask yourself if you could live with it, if you had a rollover and he died. Someone I know lost a son this way. 

When a rule is relaxed with anyone even slightly oppositional, it invites further boundary crossing, IMO.


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## Doberbrat (Aug 2, 2007)

I've done that MA-NC drive more times than I care to think about. The year dd1 was born, we drove down 5 times!! I can tell you that if you're talking about I80 through PA, I've seen more serious accidents on that route than I've ever seen on 95. We take that route b/c it has less traffic but because there is less traffic, there seem to be more trucks and more people flying down the roadway. When something goes wrong, it goes WAY wrong!

I tend to be a little more lax in the seatbelt dept - I'd probably allow leaning on the door/window or completely reclining the seat but would not be comfortable with taking the seatbelt off to lay down. If for no other reason than setting a precedence. 

Have a good drive - we're headed there this summer ourselves at some point.


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## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

katelove said:


> Maybe it depends on the car.


I think it does. In my tiny compact car, ds can lean a teeny bit to the side and rest his head on the window and the seat belt is still in perfect position. In the captains seats in my friend's gigantic SUV, if you tried that you might as well not be wearing a seat belt at all.

We just plan the trip so as to take lots of breaks and we stop overnight. That way, we are both safe and (relatively) comfortable.


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## toledo051707 (Mar 7, 2007)

I would not be comfortable with an adult or teenager unbuckled anywhere in a vehicle traveling. About fifteen years ago my brother and I were sleeping in the back of their van while traveling to my grandmother's funeral. My mom fell asleep at the wheel and we woke up bumping down the median at 70 m.p.h. Thankfully my dad drove us back onto the road without incident but you never know when an accident will come. I like the other suggestions of trying a neck pillow or other accommodations to keep him comfortable and to take frequent breaks to stretch legs. Safe travels to you.


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## Lindaguitar (Aug 18, 2012)

*Seat belt laws reflect and cause paranoia and anxiety*

I can't help wondering if people's attitudes about seat belts reflects their age, and what the standards were when they grew up. I'm in my 50s. When I was a teen, I traveled across the country with my grandparents, and never wore a seat belt. It wasn't required back then. I lay down and slept in the back seat most of the trip! Everyone did it, back then, and the vast majority of us are still here!
So, to answer your question, YES, I certainly would let a teen lie down, unbuckled, in the back seat.
All these dire warnings and fears that have led to such excessive safety concerns are based on events that are so statistically unlikely to happen that you may as well not travel at all, because you never know when another car might hit yours so hard that seat belts will not help at all, or you might find yourself in a collision situation where the car is burning, and the seat belts only impede your escape, or you might get caught in a tornado, or struck by lightning. Or shot by a mugger at a gas station.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Lindaguitar said:


> Everyone did it, back then, and the vast majority of us are still here!


Yes, the ones who aren't still here can't speak out. And speaking of statistics, motor vehicle crashes are the leading cause of death for teens in the U.S. (http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/teenagers/fatalityfacts/teenagers) I'm also old enough to remember not wearing seatbelts, and I was a CPST for many years, and there's no way I'll ever let my kid ride unrestrained.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Lindaguitar said:


> I can't help wondering if people's attitudes about seat belts reflects their age, and what the standards were when they grew up. I'm in my 50s.


I'm in my 50s. By the time I graduated from high school, I knew several teens who had died in car crashes. My kids are now 18 and 19, and they don't know any. Things have changed. Cars are safer, drunk driving isn't as common, people buckle up more.

I totally stand behind what I said:



Linda on the move said:


> it teaches your teen that safety rules are optional and situational
> 
> Your teen is on the verge of driving, of riding with teen drivers, and of spending significant amounts of time away from you. Everything you say and do impacts how safe he will be when is a driver, or when he is riding with a peer.


Your posts was really flippant. I'm curious if you have teens who drive and if you are so flippant with them about safety rules when driving. For many parents, this is a very scary stage because we are completely out of control. We'll never even know if our for kids follow the safety rules we've taught them unless the worse happens.

So message to my kids has been very consistent -- these are the best practices for safety and I want you to always follow them because I love you, because you are my heart.


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## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

Lindaguitar said:


> I can't help wondering if people's attitudes about seat belts reflects their age, and what the standards were when they grew up. I'm in my 50s. When I was a teen, I traveled across the country with my grandparents, and never wore a seat belt. It wasn't required back then. I lay down and slept in the back seat most of the trip! Everyone did it, back then, and the vast majority of us are still here!
> So, to answer your question, YES, I certainly would let a teen lie down, unbuckled, in the back seat.
> All these dire warnings and fears that have led to such excessive safety concerns are based on events that are so statistically unlikely to happen that you may as well not travel at all, because you never know when another car might hit yours so hard that seat belts will not help at all, or you might find yourself in a collision situation where the car is burning, and the seat belts only impede your escape, or you might get caught in a tornado, or struck by lightning. Or shot by a mugger at a gas station.


:nono02


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

On top of all the wise words about using the darn seatbelt:

Getting hit by another car while driving is really not that improbable. It happens thousands of times a day, every day. One of the things that different, though, is that cars are better engineered to keep passengers safer in crashes. I have friends who are EMTs and say that they see car accidents now that, based on vehicle damage, would have killed people 10-15 years ago, that are now total non-events for EMS, _so long as all the passengers were belted._


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## newmamalizzy (Jul 23, 2010)

I think when you use the anecdotal basis for decisions you really need to think about the difference in probabilities between the number of people you are exposed to and the likelihood of the event occurring. My guess is that most of us wouldn't notice anything anecdotally beyond a 1% or so chance of occurrence, which is really not great odds. I'd love to see a study on that, because I feel like I hear the "we were fine" argument a lot these days.


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## Lindaguitar (Aug 18, 2012)

One of the people who replied to my post wrote, "Your posts was really flippant. I'm curious if you have teens who drive and if you are so flippant with them about safety rules when driving. For many parents, this is a very scary stage because we are completely out of control. We'll never even know if our for kids follow the safety rules we've taught them unless the worse happens."

I have two grown children, ages 23 and 25. I've been through the teen stage with them. When they were learning to drive, I did emphasize safe, defensive driving. I, personally, do not consider seatbelts in the back seat to be a necessary component of driving safety. The law (in my state, at least) requires only the driver and *front seat* passenger to be bucked in. My kids never failed to fasten their seat belts when they got behind the wheel. That was more a matter of complying with the law than of concerns about safety, per se. I consider driving safety to be primarily a matter of defensive driving and following the laws. But if it were put to a vote, I would vote against compulsory seat belt laws (except, perhaps, for children under the age of 12), and leave that as a personal choice for teens and adults.

Addressing the issue of parental fears, because their teens are suddenly out of their control: I would suggest that American parents learn to be less controlling and less fearful. Fear seems to be the driving force behind most parenting and most new laws and policies, these days. It is not a good/healthy primary motivation factor.


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## alpenglow (Oct 29, 2007)

I don't see seatbelts as anything to do with fear. It's plain common sense if the statistics and crash test dummy tests show they save lives, and reduce seriousness of injury. And frankly I find the arguments of "we survived without seatbelts" or pathologizing common sense as being some symptom of a fearful society, to be getting a little old. Car accident injuries cost everyone in society money. This is about responsibility to your loved ones and the people who bear the burden of the fallout of irresponsible choices. It's not about fear.

Cars these days may have some safer components such as airbags, stabity control, etc. but the heavy steel machines of the past could withstand serious crashes without buckling like tinfoil. People used to survive some crashes in backseats due to solid steel frames (if they weren't thrown from the vehicle and crushed). Nowadays I wouldn't bet on it.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Lindaguitar said:


> I, personally, do not consider seatbelts in the back seat to be a necessary component of driving safety.


I said this upthread, but any unbuckled passenger becomes a projectile in a crash. Physics states that an object in motion stays in motion. A 120-pound person object at 40mph is definitely unsafe. An unbuckled back seat passenger can kill the driver or front seat passenger as well as dying him/herself.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

alpenglow said:


> Cars these days may have some safer components such as airbags, stabity control, etc. but the heavy steel machines of the past could withstand serious crashes without buckling like tinfoil. People used to survive some crashes in backseats due to solid steel frames (if they weren't thrown from the vehicle and crushed). Nowadays I wouldn't bet on it.


Actually, the "crumple zones" in modern cars add to passenger safety. The big old steel-framed cars often transferred crash energy to the passengers. Modern cars are designed to absorb crash forces. The cars are totalled but the occupants tend to fare much better.


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## alpenglow (Oct 29, 2007)

Thanks! 
I suppose they fare better if buckled in the same way as the crash test dummies.
But lying down or unbuckled....will negate the safety features of a newer vehicle.

Very good point about the back seat occupant becoming a danger to others in a crash


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## anj_rn (Oct 1, 2009)

We have pillows & wedges to sleep, but no one sleeps without a seatbelt. My daughter does have a special harness that allows her to be transported while supine across the back seat, but the safety belts connect with her harness to keep her in place. My preference is her in her seat, but it is safer when that is not a possibility.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Lindaguitar said:


> I consider driving safety to be primarily a matter of defensive driving and *following the laws.* ....
> Addressing the issue of parental fears, because their teens are suddenly out of their control: I would suggest that American parents learn to be less controlling and less fearful.


The laws are really the bare minimum -- for example, where I live it is perfectly legal to text and drive. The law doesn't represent "best practices."

I'm not a controlling parent -- my kids have had more freedom at every age than any other kids we've known in real life. I let them do A LOT of things. However, I believe in them knowing how to stay as stay as possible while doing the things they want to do. I believe in my kids knowing *why* every safety guideline is there so that it is never a matter of them doing what I say, but rather them doing what is in their own best interest. Using a seat belt (always) and paying attention when you drive are part of that.


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

My mom was (and remains) a practicing physician who'd done some training stints in the ER. My dad, until he retired, was an actuary. The thing he did for a living was statistical math about when and how people die.

They taught me to wear a seatbelt. Not because they were controlling, and not because they were fearful, but because they know what can happen to unbelted passengers, and because they know that the driver only controls their own car. Not the other cars, and not the road. 

In a collision, an unbelted rear passenger is likely to hit the front seats (assuming they don't get flung between them), and then the back seats again, as well as the doors, the roof, and the floor of the car. All of those impacts will occur at high speed - assume 120 lbs. x 65 mph - a lot of force. Some of the things they hit will be other people in the car - how do you think it feels to have that force pound the back of the driver's seat? Do you think you could keep driving? Consider the effects at different heights on the driver's seat, because impacts are unpredictable. What happens if you get hit about kidney level? What about neck level? Do you think your teen would get up off the floor of the car afterwards? Do you think you would walk away?

I can't control what my kids do every second or when I'm not around, but when I am around or if I am consulted, I will *always* say that everyone, regardless of seat location, should sit upright and wear a seatbelt. Because I have an elementary sense of self-preservation, that is what I will do myself. If my kids think that makes me controlling and fearful, well, welcome to parenthood. There are many rules that apply to people who live under my roof or ride in my car, and a wide range of things I want my children to be aware of and take precautions about.


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## alpenglow (Oct 29, 2007)

Same approach here. Help them understand why. I didn't have the battle lots of parents have about kids who want to use a booster before ready, or seatbelt before ready to give up the booster....and it might be because I talk about auto safety. Or maybe I lucked out. I often work with car accident victims, so I have trouble with flippant attitudes about safety, when all it takes is one second to make a decision that could change a life forever. I just hope they think about that when they are faced with decisions without me around.


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## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

Just this weekend I ran into an old friend at my daughter's graduation from high school. His older brother, age 58, just moved in with him. The brother became an unbelted projectile in the back seat of a vehicle that crashed back in about 1970. This occurred on a family vacation trip where the kids were free to sleep and mess around in the back seat, like we all were in those days. A tire blew out on a truck just ahead of them and the vehicle swerved directly into their lane. He sustained a traumatic brain injury, functions at the level of a 6-to-8-year-old, and has never lived independently. Now that his parents are entering a retirement home, he's having to move in with my friend. 

Just because you and I survived that era fine doesn't mean everyone did. 

Miranda


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## Letitia (Aug 27, 2009)

I was a back seat passenger in a very low-speed accident some years ago. I was lying across the back seat, with the belt loosely around my hips, slithered out of the shoulder belt. I guess I felt safe because we were bumper-to-bumper on I-95 and couldn't have been going more than 15 miles an hour. The driver fell asleep, and I was awkwardly thrown forward off the seat. It was probably better that I was wearing the hip belt, but I ended up hanging in it. I would never do that again. Never. Now we sleep propped up by pillows and stuffed animals.

I just can't see any reason to allow someone to ride without a belt. I wouldn't care how whiny or uncomfortable. Get off the road and walk around, eat a cookie, play a game, listen to an audiobook.


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

Seat belts are legally required for all passengers in NC.


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## JennyBirch (Apr 14, 2016)

Maiasaura said:


> Hi y'all,
> 
> We are traveling from MA to NC this summer.
> ---
> ...


 I think that wearing a seatbelt is pretty uncontroversial, pretty much everyone agrees it must be done: http://think.direct.gov.uk/seat-belts.html I've heard something about driving on ice and that it is OK to drive without a belt in this situation, because being able to jump out of a car is more important in this case. But that is a very rare situation, and I wouldn't even mention it to kids. As previous posters have already said, those safety rules should be universal, not situational. 
If you are taking a long interstate road trip like that - http://en.cutway.net/distance/21192-20443/ - children will get tired from all this time spent traveling, some may be a bit sick. Perhaps it is reasonable to take a break somewhere along the way. Also, I am not a big proponent of computer games, but I think it's OK for kids to play a little on the road to keep them occupied.


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

JennyBirch said:


> I think that wearing a seatbelt is pretty uncontroversial, pretty much everyone agrees it must be done: http://think.direct.gov.uk/seat-belts.html I've heard something about driving on ice and that it is OK to drive without a belt in this situation, because being able to jump out of a car is more important in this case. But that is a very rare situation, and I wouldn't even mention it to kids. As previous posters have already said, those safety rules should be universal, not situational.
> If you are taking a long interstate road trip like that - http://en.cutway.net/distance/21192-20443/ - children will get tired from all this time spent traveling, some may be a bit sick. Perhaps it is reasonable to take a break somewhere along the way. Also, I am not a big proponent of computer games, but I think it's OK for kids to play a little on the road to keep them occupied.


Oh, we'll take plenty of breaks. Pee breaks, mostly, but now he is 15 and he is the one that wants to get moving so as to get there faster (finally!). And he's got free reign with video games now that he is older. He gets agency and autonomy with his "play" life. I only still control the chores and the homework  And the snark, of course, when I'm able to!


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## dharma.wheel (Jul 9, 2016)

Would love to know how the trip from MA to NC (and back I suppose) went, and if the 15 year old kept his seat belt on. 

A lot of sensible posts here.

In the early 2000s, the great but little known actor Spalding Grey was sitting in a car driven by his wife in the back seat without wearing a seat belt. They were on a small road in rural Ireland. A speeding veterinarian on his way to tend a sick cow hit them head on, and somehow Spading was projectiled out of the car and lay for over an hour on the ground in pain. He had a broken hip, but worse, irreversible brain damage. A tragedy.


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

OMG, stupid computer (AND website); I have been trying to reply for like an hour-- I have my username and PW preserved so I don't have to type it every time, and it wouldn't accept it, and I had to go and reset it and get a new one, GAH *grrr*

That said, it ended up being a non-issue after all that... he is so used to wearing his seatbelt that nothing ever came of it. I asked all ya'll because it was going to be me that brought it up ("Okay, you can lay down in the backseat for a little while... yadda yadda") but it never came to that. He was a dream passenger 0Thank you for catching up and asking!


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