# 3 year old power struggles... how to deal with them?



## One Art (Nov 9, 2005)

ok, so the power struggles happen at various times, but most frequently now at dinner. dd1 will say she's not hungry, eat a little, and then, because dh and I don't want to push the issue, we let her out. Right as soon as the light is out after story time, she is hungry. Part of this is stalling bedtime, but I don't doubt for a second that she really is hungry. So far dh and I have been really firm, and have said we are sorry she is hungry and that dinner time is when we eat, so next time make sure to eat dinner. Next time she does it again, and when we remind her about the previous time it just doesn't sink in, she still insists that she's not hungry. Sometimes I can distract her, or explain to her that her tummy will really hurt if she doesn't eat, but this usually means feeding her, which is something that we are trying to stop doing.... (don't most 3 and a half year olds feed themselves? or am I expecting too much?) but still, it doesn't always work, and with a new baby i am not always available to do this, and it doesn't work at all when dh tries.... soooo I am looking for a way to get through to her, and make sure she eats... ideas, advice? thanks!


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

First, I would NEVER deny a child food. I can't tell you how many times DS gets up at 2:00am and wants yogurt. How do I know he's not hungry? He's growing, maybe he didn't eat enough at dinner. I don't play the food police with them.

"Sorry your hungry but next time please be sure to eat?" Wow, that is definately not something you watn to do to a kid!

Do you have some examples of what you mean by power struggles?

About the food: Prepare healthy choices, let her eat any time of day anywhere. That will get rid of the struggle. Eventually maybe she'll enjoy "family dinner." we actually dont' eat at the table hardly ever. We have picnics on the floor a lot. If you're willing to give up the need to have something a certain way for her, and let her decide, your life will become a lot easier.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

I disagree with the previous poster. I think that the child should learn that bed time is not when we eat. Especially since we're talking about a 3 year-old not an infant. I have dealt with this issue with families that I babysat for and what we finally decided to do was let the child up from the table when they're finished with dinner, but save a portion of dinner in the fridge (probably what's left on their plate when the child gets up from the table) and then about 30 min before bedtime let them know that this is the last call for food. They can finish their dinner at this time, and if they are still hungry they can have another healthy snack. let them eat until they're full. But when they're finished they are done for the night. This way you can be sure that they're not hungry when they lay down for bed. However I don't think a child should be allowed to stall their bedtime by claiming they're hungry everynight.


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## eli janine (Jun 29, 2006)

:

Exactly what we do with 3 y.o. DS.

Also, battles of will at this age are pretty normal developmentally...I guess my best advice (that I don't always follow) is keep your cool and choose your battles. Offer choices, be clear about the reasons for the limits, and try to give her some extra one on one with the new baby. (We're dealing with that as well with a seven week old into the mix, and we've seen an increase in that kind of "oppositional" behavior.) He really just wants us to see him as an independent individual with power of will.

Sometimes, if I get the feeling DS just is looking for a spirited argument (sometimes he will tell me to disagree with him), I'll divert his attention by making a ridiculous claim, like "I see you have a zebra behind your ear." Pretty soon we're giggling, and often he'll comply with the original request after a few minutes of engaging with him.

Good luck...this age is much harder than those famed "terrible twos", IMO.


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## fek&fuzz (Jun 19, 2005)

Maybe scheduling a snack before bed would help with her hunger, and help you avoid feeling at odds with her right before bed. If you were hungry, wouldn't you eat? Why deny her the same?


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## cyncyn (Nov 19, 2004)

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We have a "last call" for snacks before bed too. Always looking for new ideas though.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fek&fuzz* 
Maybe scheduling a snack before bed would help with her hunger, and help you avoid feeling at odds with her right before bed. If you were hungry, wouldn't you eat? Why deny her the same?

This was my thought too. If it's important to her to eat before bed, why not make a snack a part of her bedtime routine?


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Wow, if my kid is hungry, and I have a 3 year old, meeting their needs is so much more important to me than keeping a scheduled bedtime. Do you worry that denying food will create issues with food later? Or telling her, when she isn't hungry that this is the only chance she gets to eat might confuse her?


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## FLmom_3 (Jan 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess* 
Wow, if my kid is hungry, and I have a 3 year old, meeting their needs is so much more important to me than keeping a scheduled bedtime. Do you worry that denying food will create issues with food later? Or telling her, when she isn't hungry that this is the only chance she gets to eat might confuse her?

I understand what you are saying (I couldn't stand feeling they are going to bed hungry) but the other thing that goes through my mind is the possible issues that could arise later out of habit of eating so close to bedtime. Most health "officials" (pediatricians, nutritionists, etc.) tell even adults not to eat meals too close to bedtime because of digestion and your body's ability to burn off fats, etc. A healthy snack would be considered but I would be afraid if I allowed them to eat "dinner" at bedtime, I would be setting habits that could cause health problems or weight issues later.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

FYI - most 3 year olds are NOT capable of understanding delayed consequences, which is what you're giving her when you say 'if you don't eat now, your tummy will hurt at bedtime.' They do not have the ability to link being hungry at bedtime with not eating dinner at dinner time. The reason she does this over and over again is because she's *three* and not developmentally able to link the two. Not until a child is 4 or 5 does this become a possibility, and even in our 5 1/2 yo, it's a weak skill.

I vote for snack before bedtime. We offer food every 2-3 hours in our house, and it's usually 2 hours from dinner to bedtime. A 3 year old still needs to refuel regularly. Most early childhood programs feed children every 2-3 hours. Not only do the kids need to refuel, but this ensures that if a child isn't hungry/doesn't care for one meal, they don't go too long without something else to eat.

My kids have a snack before bedtime. Dd's is usually nursing. Ds's varies. He's in the 94th percentile for height and the 60th for weight. He's in NO danger of being overweight. Both my kids stop eating when they are full, even if it means leaving half a dish of ice cream on the table. They have much healthier attitudes toward eating than I do precisely because it's not restricted. They have learned to monitor their own hunger and full cues.

So: Quit feeding her. Let her eat more regularly. Let her choose a healthy snack (with complex carbs and a bit of fat) at bedtime. Read the book "Child of Mine: Feeding with Love and Good Sense."


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## Elijah's Mom (Dec 17, 2003)

Just a thought -- if these are fairly new issues, I'd think there was a link to the new baby. Does she see you feeding her? This seems like a potential place in which your DD is trying to manage her feelings about the new baby and the caretaking/attention/physical warmth that goes into feeding your new baby. If I were you, I would allow her to be "fed" by you and held on your lap during dinner for a while ... and link it for her to her feelings about the new baby and that she wants to be taken care of in that way, too.

Its so hard ... knowing the line between honoring the struggle your DD is going through adjusting to a new baby and "keeping boundaries of behavior" clear. At least it was very hard for me at that stage, wrapped as I was in my own deeply ambivalent feelings.

Just remember that your DD needs some place to express the jealousy and a sense of loss that she feels with the new baby and it may not come out in obvious ways. This those might be one of those places and if it is, she needs tenderness and empathy. I suspect that these behaviors will go away soon if you allow her those moments of being a baby.

Worth trying?

Becca

P.S. Child of Mine is a GREAT book. It saved us from loads of eating/food issues.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

My five yr. old will often ask for food right before he falls asleep. It's one of the ways I know he's getting ready to fall out.

I would just build a snack into the bedtime routine.

I think trusting babies to nurse when they're hungry ought to extend to older kids eating when they are. All that power struggle, manipulation stuff sometimes just gets in the way of meeting our kids needs and building attachment. Assume the best!


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## momuveight2B (Mar 17, 2006)

I am maybe at the opposite extreme. I have scheduled mealtimes and everyone comes to the table and mostly everyone finishes what is served. The focus is socialization and family time not eating. My four year often does not eat much, she will eat some bites or ask for seconds on what she really likes and then she asks to go play. I have a picky nine year old who will ask for only certain items on his plate and that is fine too. If dessert is being served and they want it then they get it regardless of what other foods were finished. I don't do any short order cooking and no one is allowed to say the food is gross, we are learning good manners.

My children are allowed to eat whatever and whenever they want outside of scheduled mealtimes. I keep lots of healthy foods around and milk or real fruit juice for drinks. I don't tell them no, I trust them to know what they need. About a half hour before bed they are reminded that bedtime is coming and last call if still hungry. If they forget or get distracted there is some flexibility but a timer will be set for five minutes so that they don't use this as a way to delay bedtime.

My only motto is take all you want and eat all you take. I don't enforce that because sometimes even adults misjudge their servings or discover they don't really like a food. All of them are perfect weight and height for their age. I have some that are lower in weight percentile (25%) and higher in the height percentile (50-75%).

If my preschooler asks to be spoon fed then I will. This is usally at night when they are hungry but tired and want to be babied a bit.

I find that my children usually experience a real pickup in appetite around first grade when they are in school and the snacking opportunities decrease, then they come to the table famished and join the clean plate club. Then it kind of levels off again until adolescence.

I don't power struggle at all with my children of any age over anything. There is no point to this and I can't win, especially concerning anything that goes into or comes out of a child. I try to get into their heads and understand why they are resisting what I want them to do. Often it is a matter of maturity and if I give them space they will come around in time. I find it important to trust that my children are really smart and that they want to mature in these areas as much as I want them to. Most problems are outgrown with time and understanding.


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## sarathan (Jun 28, 2005)

I haven't had time to read all of the responses so I'm not sure what's been said.

Anyway, we have a similar problem with our ds (3 1/2). He frequently will not eat at dinnertime but then about an hour later he's complaing of being hungry. I hate the idea of depriving him food so we've been just saving his dinner until later. Usually he's fine with this and he'll happily eat it.


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## Al Dente (Jan 8, 2004)

I am amazed that so many posters are "firm" on this issue. Um...hunger is a need. They are still babies. A 10 year old I would expect to wait-most of the time. Even then I would try to be compassionate about it and give them the benefit of the doubt.

If I didn't feed ds when he woke up hungry, I would be up all night because he would keep waking up crying and asking until I gave in. I can't do that to my child. I don't give 2 hangs about "letting him win" and I'm not going to deny him if he's hungry or thirsty. How many times have I woken up in the middle of the night hungry? LOTS.

I know "stalling" is frustrating but geez, how do you know when they are and aren't? Last night ds woke up SIX times asking for a drink. He guzzled it everytime. He's not stalling. He often asks for food in the middle of the night. He's a grazer and I'm not going to force him to clean his plate so that I can make him wait until I decide it's mealtime again.


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RacheePoo* 
I am amazed that so many posters are "firm" on this issue. Um...hunger is a need. .

Me too, I couldn't believe anyone disagreed with me to say give them food!

And I'm not so sure to who ever mentioned it, that I would listen to "health officials" regarding diet. I always eat some yogurt around 10pm or I wake up hungry. DS always eats a snack like yogurt right before bed. I don't know if people are afraid their kids will become fat or have heartburn, but we are all thin and healthy.

If my kid says "I'm hungry," I feed them


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## frenchie (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
I disagree with the previous poster. I think that the child should learn that bed time is not when we eat. Especially since we're talking about a 3 year-old not an infant. I have dealt with this issue with families that I babysat for and what we finally decided to do was let the child up from the table when they're finished with dinner, but save a portion of dinner in the fridge (probably what's left on their plate when the child gets up from the table) and then about 30 min before bedtime let them know that this is the last call for food. They can finish their dinner at this time, and if they are still hungry they can have another healthy snack. let them eat until they're full. But when they're finished they are done for the night. This way you can be sure that they're not hungry when they lay down for bed. However I don't think a child should be allowed to stall their bedtime by claiming they're hungry everynight.

I agree...and also, allowing them to eat right before bed and in the middle of the might, IMO, sets them up for really bad eating habits. It's not good for the metabolism.


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## living_organic (Sep 25, 2006)

My 3 1/2 year old does this too...but I don't think it is to stall bedtime or a power thing.

I think that she just has too much fun playing, taking a bath, etc. that she doesn't want to stop to eat or may not even notice she's hungry until she settles down for bed.

If we are in bed and she says she's hungry, I get up with her and give her something. Yoghurt, cheese, peanut butter toast, a banana, you know any of these things will usually satisfy her and then she sleeps right away. We are talking 5 min to give her what she needs, then back to bed. A power struggle trying to tell her she should have eaten dinner would take much longer!


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *425lisamarie* 
If my kid says "I'm hungry," I feed them

















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## FLmom_3 (Jan 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLmom_3* 
I understand what you are saying (I couldn't stand feeling they are going to bed hungry) but the other thing that goes through my mind is the possible issues that could arise later out of habit of eating so close to bedtime. Most health "officials" (pediatricians, nutritionists, etc.) tell even adults not to eat meals too close to bedtime because of digestion and your body's ability to burn off fats, etc. A healthy snack would be considered but I would be afraid if I allowed them to eat "dinner" at bedtime, I would be setting habits that could cause health problems or weight issues later.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
My kids have a snack before bedtime. Dd's is usually nursing. Ds's varies. He's in the 94th percentile for height and the 60th for weight. He's in NO danger of being overweight. Both my kids stop eating when they are full, even if it means leaving half a dish of ice cream on the table. They have much healthier attitudes toward eating than I do precisely because it's not restricted. They have learned to monitor their own hunger and full cues.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *momuveight2B* 
My only motto is take all you want and eat all you take. I don't enforce that because sometimes even adults misjudge their servings or discover they don't really like a food. All of them are perfect weight and height for their age. I have some that are lower in weight percentile (25%) and higher in the height percentile (50-75%).


Quote:


Originally Posted by *425lisamarie* 
Me too, I couldn't believe anyone disagreed with me to say give them food!

And I'm not so sure to who ever mentioned it, that I would listen to "health officials" regarding diet. I always eat some yogurt around 10pm or I wake up hungry. DS always eats a snack like yogurt right before bed. I don't know if people are afraid their kids will become fat or have heartburn, but we are all thin and healthy.

OK - this isn't exactly answering her question but after all the references to weight percentiles and my post, I felt the need to clarify. First, I did NOT say she should let her go hungry. If you notice, my post said a healthy snack would be considered - I would consider yogurt and many of the other foods listed a healthy snack. I would not feel a full dinner at bedtime to be a good idea for my family. This is my personal opinion. Everyone is entitled to one. I neither said that if you do this, your child will immediately become overweight at age 3, nor did I imply that they would without a doubt at some point. I simply stated that it is a possibility. There's no guarantee that a child is in NO danger of being overweight, as many people struggling with their weight will go back to adolescent years and show they were once within their percentiles (and no family history of weight issues) but unhealthy eating habits became difficult to break, just as any other habits formed. All I'm saying about that is in those particular situations, one of the first things warned from "health officials" is to restructure their eating habits, beginning with not eating large meals such as dinner within (allotted time frame here) before bed time. Also, the higher your metabolism, the less likely you are to have weight issues, and eating smaller amounts more frequently promotes a higher metabolism - that is a great thing. Most children have a high metabolism, which is why they seem to be hungry frequently -but my post didn't address weight and eating frequently, only eating meals at bed time. This is also more of a concern if you have a family history of weight problems. I do not but my husband's family does - maybe that is why it is more of a concern for me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frenchie* 
I agree...and also, allowing them to eat right before bed and in the middle of the might, IMO, sets them up for really bad eating habits. It's not good for the metabolism.

Thank you! That's all I'm saying. My children's physical health is just as important to me as mental health & development. Many effects of early habits will not be noticeable until later on and I would feel horrible if my child began to struggle with metabolism and weight and I had to wonder if it was from a habit I'd helped form. We as humans know what we need, but sometimes we feel we need something out of habit that we don't necessarily need. I'm not saying this is the case now with a 3 year old but just clarifying my statement of the possibility of eating issues later on if they get used to eating meals that close to bedtime.

I'm in a hurry now and not sure if I'm making sense but I hope you understand what I was trying to say. Either way, I wasn't trying to attack anyone or their parenting style - just adding a little something that crossed my mind.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 







:









: x2

YK, just like in dancing it takes 2 to engage in power struggle.

"Eat when you hungry sleep when you tired" motto trumps all the other reasons for me. Just like other posters mentioned - infants eat right before going to sleep. Then again in the middle of the night. When I was pregnant I ate in the middle of the night. I never heard of health issues arising from that.

Not taking away kids innate ability to trust their own body is big in my book and way more important than any schedule


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frenchie* 
I agree...and also, allowing them to eat right before bed and in the middle of the might, IMO, sets them up for really bad eating habits. It's not good for the metabolism.

So at what age does this apply? B/c babies need to eat throughout the night. Is there some specific age where you feel this no longer applies, and suddenly it's a "bad eating habit?"


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## kalisis (Jan 10, 2005)

Ok, my son is only 2 1/2, but I know what you're going through.

First, it was easy to just get up and get him something to eat when he was the only one. But now that I have two kids (DD is only three weeks old), it's impossible for me to feed him at his every whim when that whim is right before bed. I see your second is a little older, but still, if you're like me, things have to have a rhythm and part of that rhythm is not every other night feeding DS at bedtime instead of suppertime.

I think my answer would have bee very differet two months ago, but now that I have two, I understand the need for something other than following a 2 or 3 year old's whims.

So, what I have started doing and it has made our life a lot easier is to just offer a snack before bedtime. Sometimes it will be dinner reincarnate (my DS will eat almost anything rolled up in a tortilla and named a 'burrito' - go figure) or sometimes it's some fruit and yogurt or some nuts or dried fruit or pretzels or whatever I have. Yes, it's a snack and it's right before he goes to sleep. My grandpa tho is 85 and he still has a snack every night before bedtime. So









Now, if DS still gets to bed and insists that he's hungry, I tell him he can eat in the morning. It's just not humanly possible for me to scrap the bedtime routine, make hm more food that he's not going to eat and then start all over again. That's just me - you can judge me all you like as a cruel parent, but I have my own limits and that's one of them.

Bottom line, you might try offering a snack and making it clear that this is the last food available until morning.


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## One Art (Nov 9, 2005)

Thanks for all the replies, for the most part I feel good about my parenting, but i guess there are always issues where advice is useful! I like the snack 30 minutes before bedtime idea.... another question I have though is what if, as is currently the case with my dd, all she ever wants to eat are tamari almonds (or something else, should the phase pass)? How do you deal with that?


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anniej* 
I think my answer would have bee very differet two months ago, but now that I have two, I understand the need for something other than following a 2 or 3 year old's whims.

Hunger is a whim?

I just don't understand how we, as AP parents, can go from trusting our babies to nurse on demand and condemning scheduled feedings, to in a few short years swinging in the opposite direction? How does that happen?


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## kalisis (Jan 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
Hunger is a whim?

I just don't understand how we, as AP parents, can go from trusting our babies to nurse on demand and condemning scheduled feedings, to in a few short years swinging in the opposite direction? How does that happen?

No, hunger is not a whim, but my DS is sometime (most times) obviously NOT hungry, he's just trying to delay bedtime.

I also subscribe to the thought that at 2 1/2, my DS's wants are not always necessarily his needs.


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## frenchie (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
So at what age does this apply? B/c babies need to eat throughout the night. Is there some specific age where you feel this no longer applies, and suddenly it's a "bad eating habit?"

Yes, I do. Once breastmilk (or formula for those who ff) is no longer the main source of nutrition, I think it's very important to establish healthy eating habits. Don't get me wrong, I feed my child when he's hungry, but I restrict him from bad food choices. If he asks for juice, and he's already had a cup of juice earlier, I tell him he can have water if he's thirsty. If he asks for cookies, and he already had some earlier, I give him alternative choices. If he refuses, then too bad...no cookies. I don't deny him the treats kids love, but they are very limited.
If he's asking for food at 9:00 at night (usually he's asleep by then, but occasionally he'll still be awake) and he's in bed, falling asleep, I explain that it's too late to eat, and why. He just rolls over and goes to sleep. Once or twice he said "Mom, I'm *really* hungry".....I fed him a piece of toast, and he went to sleep. I just don't think it's something that should be an established bedtime ritual...it's just not healthy in the long run.
We have weight issues in my family, and they are all from very poor eating habits. This is a very important issue for me in child rearing. Everybody is going to do what they feel is best for their child.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

I believe that teaching kids how to establish healthy eating habits by "making" them eat certain things at certain times is akin to teaching math by giving ready answers to a problem, instead of explaining how to get those answers and showing them how to work the problem

What is going to happen when they grow up and there is nobody around to restrict foods? Wouldn't the "forbidden fruit" be so much more appealing?

I keep healthy foods in the house. We all eat healthy stuff. And a homemade oatmeal cookies with raisins is no less healthy than the oatmeal hot cereal with raisins that may be eaten as a meal.

A tray with healthy snacks on a table - fruits, veggies, etc., that everybody munches on is a hit at our house.

As kids get older (though 3 is plenty old to start) I discuss nutrition, involve them in coming up with ideas, trying new things.

FTR - nobody in my family is overweight, nor malnourished, quite the opposite even though any one of us can start dinner with a candy if desired. As a matter of fact I don't even introduce the concept of "treats" or "deserts". It's just food.

I know I can not handle too much sweets at a time - I crave veggies after that. I believe it's because I was always left to make my own decisions about my own body and was never restricted (food-wise) in any way.

My DD happily eats two bowls of bean soup after having eaten a piece of chocolate.

Another point I want to address is eating big meals. As PP mentioned - eating small portions all throughout the day is way healthier and more natural. Sometimes there is no "big dinner" at our house. We may eat a meal X together (let's say pasta), then eat a meal Y (lets say string beans) in two hours (together or separate). Or may not. Since both meals were prepared at the same time - I am not a "short order cook", the term I see being used here.


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## beautyful (Oct 30, 2003)

Do the parents serving food after dinnertime or in the middle of the night just not brush their dc's teeth? After having gone through dental hell with my oldest (3 in March) I can't imagine serving her food at bedtime without brushing her teeth which wakes her up again.


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam* 
I believe that teaching kids how to establish healthy eating habits by "making" them eat certain things at certain times is akin to teaching math by giving ready answers to a problem, instead of explaining how to get those answers and showing them how to work the problem

What is going to happen when they grow up and there is nobody around to restrict foods? Wouldn't the "forbidden fruit" be so much more appealing?

I keep healthy foods in the house. We all eat healthy stuff. And a homemade oatmeal cookies with raisins is no less healthy than the oatmeal hot cereal with raisins that may be eaten as a meal.

A tray with healthy snacks on a table - fruits, veggies, etc., that everybody munches on is a hit at our house.

As kids get older (though 3 is plenty old to start) I discuss nutrition, involve them in coming up with ideas, trying new things.

FTR - nobody in my family is overweight, nor malnourished, quite the opposite even though any one of us can start dinner with a candy if desired. As a matter of fact I don't even introduce the concept of "treats" or "deserts". It's just food.

I know I can not handle too much sweets at a time - I crave veggies after that. I believe it's because I was always left to make my own decisions about my own body and was never restricted (food-wise) in any way.

My DD happily eats two bowls of bean soup after having eaten a piece of chocolate.

Another point I want to address is eating big meals. As PP mentioned - eating small portions all throughout the day is way healthier and more natural. Sometimes there is no "big dinner" at our house. We may eat a meal X together (let's say pasta), then eat a meal Y (lets say string beans) in two hours (together or separate). Or may not. Since both meals were prepared at the same time - I am not a "short order cook", the term I see being used here.

This is EXACTLY our home. I made homemade truffles and DS ate 2... then I made some rosemary and white bean soup and he drank a HUGE mug of it, along with some homemade bread.

Food is to fuel the body, not just fill your gut. Keep healthy food around and let them eat what/when they need to! I have bigger things to do then being the food police around here. We are all very healthy and I'd never live otherwise...so I guess it's anyone's business how they want their kids to feel about food/nutrition


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Many 3 year olds around the world still nurse to sleep. When ds was 3, he still cuddled up and had a bottle right before brushing teeth (stopped nursing early after an extended period on life support).

OP I do not think a 3 year old can really understand "eat now so you won't be hungry later". Even if she says "I'm hungry" just to delay or get attention, I wouldn't approach this issue by directly challenging her or saying "No you are not hungry". That may set up a very difficult power struggle. If schedules are important to you, then make sure it's one that follows her cues and needs. She may need frequent smaller meals, instead of three big meals. She may simply need to know there will be a bedtime snack.

Often, once a child knows there is "pressure" surrounding an issue, they start resisting and refuse to comply just to reassure themselves they have some control. If she is sensing that you want her to eat at dinner or else she won't get food later, she may become overly focused on "later".


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

My son was taking the bulk of his nutrition in food and still woke up to nurse until he was about 3. Little tummies are hungry when they're hungry. No calendar or meal plan is going to override that.

If my parent told me that it was nighttime and I couldn't eat if I were hungry I would feel angry, hurt, scared, and confused. I would not feel *more* trust, *more* connection, *more* attachment to my parent.

These are the crucial issues of attachment parenting, aren't they? To respond, to trust, to nighttime parent, to build and foster connection? I don't see denying food for any of the reasons given reconciling with that. Nor do I see how taking it upon myself to decide if he's *really* hungry or not, to be in line with those principles.

If it really is the case that the child is not hungry, but looking for a way to delay bedtime, I would consider how well taking control of the child's sleep is working. If the child is not in control (or not *feeling*) in control of his sleep (by going to bed by the clock v. when he's sleepy or whatever), and is trying to get some control over sleep by lying about food (something he perhaps feels he does have control over), that would concern me. And if he's resorting to those measures over "sleep control" how is he going to react once "food control" is *also* part of the picture?


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 

If it really is the case that the child is not hungry, but looking for a way to delay bedtime, I would consider how well taking control of the child's sleep is working. If the child is not in control (or not *feeling*) in control of his sleep (by going to bed by the clock v. when he's sleepy or whatever), and is trying to get some control over sleep by lying about food (something he perhaps feels he does have control over), that would concern me. And if he's resorting to those measures over "sleep control" how is he going to react once "food control" is *also* part of the picture?

Excellent point!


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Eating right before bed is not a bad habit.

Eating food that your body doesn't want or need *is* a bad habit, regardless of the time of day.

One of the best guards against weight problems is to _listen to your body._ Most kids have this skill naturally, but we tend to beat it out of them. Whatever a family's food policy is, it is important to reinforce a child's connection to his or her body and the cues it is sending.

/editorial


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## kalisis (Jan 10, 2005)

FWIW, because I always feel like I have to defend myself and my parenting in this forum, DS is not put to bed by the clock. He is generally sleepy around the same time every night, but we absolutely follow his cues for when he's ready for bed.

So, we're not controlling his sleep, we're following his lead. And again, I reiterate, that his wants are not always his needs and I cannot be the parent that I want to be if I'm tired and cranky myself (if I have to do bedtime routines more than once with an overtired child or get up in the middle of the night to get him a snack and then wait while he eats it - it makes me very tired).

By offering him a snack before bed, we have almost completely, entirely eliminated his asking for food anyway. And I believe the OP was looking for suggestions, concrete suggestions about what to do, not opening herself up for criticism about how far she's falling from some of your ideal standards.

I'm not trying to start anything, I'm really not. I just feel a little personally attacked for no good reason - my child is not being harmed by the suggestion I have offered and it's working for my family. Those are really the two requirements I believe we can agree on and now for this point, I am agreeing to disagree.


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## pixiepunk (Mar 11, 2003)

we have a very firm policy of no eating after teeth are brushed, and only water to drink. we have major dental issues and have to be really hard core about brushing and flossing. so no way would i let my daughter eat once we were sitting in bed ready to sleep. she is very aware that once we walk into the bathroom to brush, there's no more food till morning. i only mention this because it may seem like a good idea to let your kid eat in the middle of the night if they are hungry, but unless you also make them brush their teeth, all that food is sitting on the teeth potentially causing decay. and this never would've occurred to me until my daughter (who's a great eater and gets virtually no sugar) ended up having to have major dental work done about 4 months ago.

we sometimes encounter the same issue - she is distracted during dinner and wants to get down and play. we save her meal and if she's hungry later she's allowed to eat that as long as it's before she's brushed her teeth. if it seems as though she just really didn't enjoy what was being served, i'll offer her a healthy snack instead.

and yes, sometimes she asks us to feed her "like a baby" and we do. in fact i often offer to let her sit on my lap and feed her if she is seeming disinterested in mealtime, and this often renews her interest.

we too try to have some structured meal times, especially dinner. i feel it will be really important as they get older to have that one meal to bring us together each day. i also agree that metabolism-wise eating late in the day is not a good habit to get into. don't get me wrong, we also graze pretty much all day (i prefer to eat this way then to "pack it all in" to a couple of meals), but i try to limit the snacks for an hour or two before dinner to make sure they're hungry for the meal as it is often the most nutritionally balanced of the day.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anniej* 
And I believe the OP was looking for suggestions, concrete suggestions about what to do, not opening herself up for criticism about how far she's falling from some of your ideal standards.

Huh? We're discussing ideas and advice and the merits of them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anniej* 
I'm not trying to start anything, I'm really not. I just feel a little personally attacked for no good reason - my child is not being harmed by the suggestion I have offered and it's working for my family. Those are really the two requirements I believe we can agree on and now for this point, I am agreeing to disagree.

I'm hearing that you feel very defensive and I'm sorry that's the case. I'm not personally attacking you by disagreeing with or questioning your methods. Nor am I suggesting that your child is being harmed. But, I think that there is a slippery slope where a child *could* be harmed by telling them "that's it, no more food it's nighttime," or "you're not really hungry." And I'm concerned that using those methods, the relationship could be harmed or result in even more power struggles.


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## Mary-Beth (Nov 20, 2001)

To the OP, it is common for kids who can feed themselves to want to be fed by a parent, usually mom. My kids both have gone through these periods. As a new big sister, she's possibly wanting to get some extra nurturing. I'd say, not to worry about it. But I understand that you may already have your hands full. You could tell her you'll help her get started with a few bites and then ask her to take over. Or go the other way and ask her to get started and then you'll help her after you eat.
If she just wants to eat almonds, I'd let her. Offer other foods and encourage variety but she'll eventually want something else. I wouldn't say thesame if all she wanted was a cookie or something though. I know others here at MDC will disagree but I wouldn't let her eat all the junk she wants...but almonds are very healthy.

I'd encourage her to eat at dinner time. Let her listen to her body though. At our house we do the "last call" before going up to brush teeth, read, and go to bed. So they can finish up dinner or have a healthy snack, like a banana at this time. This has helped because they did the same stuff of not eating at dinner then being hungry at bed...Ah, they also learned that just saying they were hungry got them more time before bed. I'd get them a snack and 1 bite and they were done...they weren't hungry. So we started the last call thing.

If they are hungry they get food...and usually they do eat a little something although it isn't so much that they are going to bed on a totally full stomach.

All of these issues are very common!


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## frenchie (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 

If my parent told me that it was nighttime and I couldn't eat if I were hungry I would feel angry, hurt, scared, and confused. I would not feel *more* trust, *more* connection, *more* attachment to my parent.

I can say with confidence that my son is not any less trusting, less connected or less attached to me. He shows no signs of anger, hurt, fright or confusion either. I don't believe I'm any less of an attached parent either.

What this all boils down to is ideals. We all have our thoeries about how our children will turn out if we don't do things a certain way. We really can't predict the future outcome. I was punished with food as a child, yet, I have very healthy eating habits. My mother always fed me healthy well balanced meals. We didn't have junk in the house, sweets were a rare treat. I can say that my childhood experience taught me that using food as a punishment is cruel, and I will not do that to my child. I was also taught to make healthy food choices, and that has carried on into my adult years.

I'm doing the best I can as my son's parent, and I can only hope that my examples will reflect positively in his choices. I'm sure every parent here has the same goal. What we do in our house works for us. If I met strong resistance with my son on the bedtime eating issue, I would re-evaluate what I was serving him for an after dinner snack, before I'd let him eat right before bedtime.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frenchie* 
I can say with confidence that my son is not any less trusting, less connected or less attached to me. He shows no signs of anger, hurt, fright or confusion either. I don't believe I'm any less of an attached parent either.

And that's great. Really!

But I, personally, don't think advice to ignore a child's explicit requests for food based on the time of day should be just accepted without question--especially here. I'm trying to raise some of the issues I can see with that advice/method. I'm not directing it at anyone person or family--at least I hope I'm not!

I just really hope that people will consider the implications of second guessing their kids' hunger or outright denying food to them.

And also to offer an alternative that we (my husband and I) trust our kids to eat when they're hungry, sleep when they're tired, say what they mean, etc.--and we do not have these sorts of power struggles, rotten teeth, obesity, poor health, etc.


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## TheDivineMissE (Mar 31, 2006)

My three year old often isn't hungry when we are eating meals. We started telling her we'd save it for later in the fridge. She now does this herself. I don't interfere mainly. She just puts her plate in the fridge then gets it back out for me to warm it up when she's hungry. Some nights she'll ask for a snack before bed and we let her have one.

I look at it in the same way as nursing on demand - only the person with the stomach really knows when she's hungry. I've never pressed the food issue, and my daughter has very healthy eating habits. Hopefully that will continue.


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## TheDivineMissE (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emilyrose* 
another question I have though is what if, as is currently the case with my dd, all she ever wants to eat are tamari almonds (or something else, should the phase pass)? How do you deal with that?


Are the almonds healthy? Let her have them. I let my kiddo eat as many fruits and veggies as she asks for. If it's not a healthy snack she wants, explain that her body needs better food to grow big and strong, and junk food, while it's tasty sometimes, shouldn't be taking up all the room in her belly needed for the good stuff. That explaination seemed to satisfy my daughter.


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## beautyful (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
And also to offer an alternative that we (my husband and I) trust our kids to eat when they're hungry, sleep when they're tired, say what they mean, etc.--and we do not have these sorts of power struggles, rotten teeth, obesity, poor health, etc.

How exactly does listening to one's child prevent rotten teeth? Or am I misunderstanding?

Just curious since I'm the one who brought it up.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Ha! No, I meant b/c he eats before falling asleep.


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## beautyful (Oct 30, 2003)

Ahh okay!







I had yet to consume coffee at that point, so, uh.. that's my excuse


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Hmm. We've had this issue as well. However, I really dislike giving her food in the middle of the night. DD does not go back to sleep easily, so if she's up asking for food she'll be up for 30-45 minutes. I don't think THAT is healthy. DD is a child who really needs her sleep. I also do think that in an older toddler, this CAN sometimes be done intentionally to delay sleep or bedtime. Is anyone really denying that kids sometimes do that? Mine does it all the time--recently she's doing it with pottying, which is similarly effective, of course, because one doesn't want to deny true bodily needs. Kids are smart! They get that this works. Their goals are not malice, of course, but just more fun time with mom and dad.

When she's done this, I've provided the food but been pretty gruff and made a point of saying that we don't eat in the middle of the night. (DD night-weaned around one. I don't think at all that she has a consistent need for food at night.) I think once or twice I've said no when I was 90% sure it was a stall tactic. OTOH, I am on board with offering a snack before bed, and I sometime offer one if I know she didn't eat much dinner.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I also do think that in an older toddler, this CAN sometimes be done intentionally to delay sleep or bedtime. Is anyone really denying that kids sometimes do that?
No. But I would be inclined to wonder why my toddler felt the need to invoke an inaccurate need in order to get my attention. I would step back at that point and try to hear the message underneath the request. Long term it's important to me that ds be able to say what he needs without dancing around the issue. I think that begins by making it safe to tell me the truth. With a little one, where "truth" is still not a real concept, I would work on encouraging them to identify and stand up for the underlying need. If I thought my 3 year old said "I want a sandwich" just to keep me with him longer, I would say "I can get you a sandwich, or I could just stay here with you longer so you aren't alone. I can do either one". If I guess correctly on the underlying need, ds will almost always say "I just want you to stay". Over time, this helped him understand the idea of saying what he really wanted. I usually reinforced those moments with something like 'If you just want me to stay longer, you can always tell me that. You don't need to ask for something different. Just tell me what you really want"...and later still, helping him see that asking for what he didn't really want, still left him unsatisfied (and often frustrated mom). So yes that meant staying with him longer than expected, so that he felt safe identifying his true needs. But long term, now that he is 10, it's invaluable to me that he has a clear concept of saying what he needs vs. saying something inaccurate because it's easier. He really gets that saying "Just one minute" when he needs half an hour is a problem. It won't get his needs met. Or mine. It's always easier and more satisfying to say what he actually needs.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

But I would be inclined to wonder why my toddler felt the need to invoke an inaccurate need in order to get my attention. I would step back at that point and try to hear the message underneath the request.
I get what you're saying here, and I like the idea of asking if it's something else that they really want. The problem for me is what you do when the other thing they want is still not something you can really provide. DD may well be saying she needs to go to the potty when she really means that she wants to spend more time with us. However...with our lives as they are now, she really does NEED to be in bed before 9, because we must wake her to go to daycare before 7, and with less than 10 hours of sleep under her belt, she is a very cranky little girl. KWIM? I'm flexible on many things, but I am not very flexible on bedtime because I know my child suffers visibly from lack of sleep. (A second child might be different. We'll see.)


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## FireWithin (Apr 29, 2004)

We have gone through phases of this. I couldn't tell you if it initially was a delay tactic or just hunger, but if we said "no" it quickly became a power struggle. We just made sure we had a healthy snack next to our bed. He could snack when we were reading books.
I know some might cringe about eating and not brushing teeth - but I don't.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I get what you're saying here, and I like the idea of asking if it's something else that they really want. The problem for me is what you do when the other thing they want is still not something you can really provide. DD may well be saying she needs to go to the potty when she really means that she wants to spend more time with us. However...with our lives as they are now, she really does NEED to be in bed before 9, because we must wake her to go to daycare before 7, and with less than 10 hours of sleep under her belt, she is a very cranky little girl. KWIM? I'm flexible on many things, but I am not very flexible on bedtime because I know my child suffers visibly from lack of sleep. (A second child might be different. We'll see.)
Yes I see what you mean.

I'm assuming you don't leave her crying and upset at bedtime in a CIO way, right? I would make sure she wasn't actually afraid of a bedtime separation. I'm guessing you are just saying she resists bedtime, period, and stalls with the issues mentioned.

So, if I needed ds asleep by 9, and he was stalling by asking for "basic needs" (food, potty, comfort), I would 1) begin earlier and 2) keep those things beside the bed. There really are not many things that a child could say they physically *needed* (even if they didn't at the moment). It's not like she's saying 'I need a new toy' right? She is asking for things she knows you know are her physical needs. So, I would put a little potty by the bed, bring a snack, and I would not use a CIO type separation that upset or frightened her. Bring a stack of books and get comfortable. Now all of her "needs" are in the room with her. If she wants to jump up 10 times to bite a cracker or sit on the potty or snuggle up to you, fine, she will get bored eventually (this is where starting earlier is invaluable). You can remind her this is bedtime and keep her focus on staying in bed, read stories, play quiet music etc. I understand that sleep is very important, and I would certainly work towards having her asleep at an hour that ensures sufficient rest. I think you can make the "stalling tactics" quite dull and unrewarding without actually engaging in a power struggle by refusing, kwim?


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Hi heartmama,

No, she doesn't CIO, and I don't think she is actually sad or afraid about bedtime. I think she really just wants more time with us. I understand. I want more time with her.









Unfortunately, starting bedtime earlier is pretty tough. She's really a master of drawing things out. Dinner starts around 6:30 (that's about as soon as I can get it done) and usually takes her an hour to eat, and bathtime and bedtime rituals take us up to about 8:15 or 8:30. If we add on delaying tactics, we get to 9 pretty fast, and really she should be in bed by 8:30. 8 would be better.

Books at bed are an issue too--she will look through books for an hour at a time even if we aren;t involved. We often joke that half of our problems stem from the fact that her attention span is much longer than ours!









Anyway, though, I do like the idea of just asking her if it is really a different need. I've done this in other contexts and sometimes I think just expressing it helps.


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## One Art (Nov 9, 2005)

loraxc brings up some good points... my dd sounds similar.... and I don't want to get into a nature/nurture debate, but what do you do when your child doesn't seem connected to their body? I freely admit that I, personally, am not so connected to my body, and neither is dh, and though we often forget to feed ourselves, we always offer food throughout the day.... so in any case, dd is clearly hungry/tired, etc, but can't feel it, kwim? and I recognize this because I am often waaay spaced out before I realize I need food, just as dh get really cranky before he realizes he needs food. I think it is wonderful that so many kids know when to eat/sleep to take care of themselves, but my dd will go for days with little food or little sleep and be soooo cranky unless we set limits about food and sleep.... I say this because ever since i first posted dh and I have tried setting lots of different foods that she likes out all the time, we have sat her at the table but let her go when she asked, etc... the result? not good. she's just not in touch with her body. So.... now the question is, when you don't have a child who recognizes her bodily needs of food and sleep, how do you deal? It is definately not good for her to go two days on a few snacks, and yet I am trying very hard to not engage in a struggle with her.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emilyrose* 
loraxc brings up some good points... my dd sounds similar.... and I don't want to get into a nature/nurture debate, but what do you do when your child doesn't seem connected to their body? I freely admit that I, personally, am not so connected to my body, and neither is dh, and though we often forget to feed ourselves, we always offer food throughout the day.... so in any case, dd is clearly hungry/tired, etc, but can't feel it, kwim? and I recognize this because I am often waaay spaced out before I realize I need food, just as dh get really cranky before he realizes he needs food. I think it is wonderful that so many kids know when to eat/sleep to take care of themselves, but my dd will go for days with little food or little sleep and be soooo cranky unless we set limits about food and sleep.... I say this because ever since i first posted dh and I have tried setting lots of different foods that she likes out all the time, we have sat her at the table but let her go when she asked, etc... the result? not good. she's just not in touch with her body. So.... now the question is, when you don't have a child who recognizes her bodily needs of food and sleep, how do you deal? It is definately not good for her to go two days on a few snacks, and yet I am trying very hard to not engage in a struggle with her.

Perhaps part of the issue, is that she hasn't been "allowed" to be connected to her body--if she's had limits or been "coerced" against what her body has been telling her. It is kind of the norm in childrearing.









Here's a page that talks about helping children sleep without imposing it, that might be of interest to you: http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/influen...eep/sleep.html

This part might be helpful, too: http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/respect...nschoices.html

Lots of stuff here about food which helped me enormously: http://sandradodd.com/food

Two days or two months or whatever it takes of living on snacks or little sleep in exchange for a lifetime of being able to listen to her body and be in tune to those needs seems like a better choice than more controls and furthering this inability to know her body for the long.

You don't have to just throw up your hands and let it be a free for all. Just start small giving her more choices, discussing how hunger feels, how tired feels, how sometimes cranky can come from tired--just the same way you would tell her that the kitty doesn't want to play and might bite. Information giving and helping along the way.

It can be messy at the start. Especially, if limits have been the norm--there is a natural testing period of seeing how much control they can get b/c it might be taken away. But, I will tell you what, the pay off of seeing a kid who doesn't gorge on "treats" at a party where the majority of the kids are inhaling them, or saying, "I'm tired Mommy, can we go upstairs and go to bed?" or just being in tune with and trusting his body is AMAZING!


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## crl (May 9, 2004)

Well, I have to second or third or whatever the dental issues. We are very sadly going to have DS put under general anthesia very soon to deal with 6 cavities. We have diligently brushed his teeth and been generally good (though not perfect) about dental health issues. Unfortunately DS has very cavity prone teeth, most likely due to poor prenatal nutrition--he's adopted. So, eating in the middle of the night is a really poor plan around here. As is perpetual grazing, which is also really bad from a dental point of view.

I think the last call for a snack shortly before bedtime is a great idea! DS actually goes to bed absurdly early and so has just eaten dinner so I can't speak to it from personal experience, but it sure sounds reasonable to me.


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## chefpaige1 (Jul 12, 2006)

Here's the whole other issue: Why not let her sleep when she's tired? I would hate to go to bed and lie there unable to go to sleep. I would want to stall, too.

I eat when I'm hungry, I sleep when I'm tired. I also let my children eat when they're hungry and sleep when they're tired. My kids (8,6,3) have never needed to stall bedtime.

I'm crazy busy (single, working mom with no family nearby to help), and a scheduled routine would make everything way easier, but it would compromise my parenting.

Something to consider.


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## pinksprklybarefoot (Jan 18, 2007)

We got into the habit of giving my bf's 4 yo daughter a bedtime snack. Unfortunately, she's not my child, so I don't get much of a say in food choices (e.g. bedtime snack=ice cream bar). The bedtime snack, however, has migrated into a 20 minutes after dinner snack. It's not that she doesn't like what we are serving for dinner (I make it a point to cook foods that I know she enjoys), it's just that she would rather have an ice cream bar. So dinner is a power struggle to get her to eat anything, then she is complaining of hunger 20 minutes later. Also, letting one child eat on demand is one thing, but we have another one arriving any day now and, in theory, more after that. I feel like we have to set a precedent with this one that we have designated meal/snack times, otherwise I can see myself spending the next six years in the kitchen doling out snacks to kids who wouldn't eat the dinner that took an hour to prepare. Maybe it will be different with the next ones because there will be a lot less ice cream involved. I guess what I am saying is that I can understand why it becomes a power struggle - if we spend the whole night making dinner and four separate snacks, how will we have time for playing games, taking baths and reading stories? It's a little frustrating.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I guess what I am saying is that I can understand why it becomes a power struggle - if we spend the whole night making dinner and four separate snacks, how will we have time for playing games, taking baths and reading stories? It's a little frustrating.
When ds was that age I fixed up a snack tray in the morning, and voila, the job was done for the day. I used an ice cube tray, and filled that with lots of bite sized pieces of healthy things like fruit/veggie/cheese, yogurt dip, small crackers, peices of tofu, beans, etc.

All he had to do was go to the fridge and open. I didn't have to do anything at all for snacks after I made up the tray.

And yes I agree that an ice cream bar at bedtime is just asking for trouble


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## One Art (Nov 9, 2005)

ok, just to clarify... we didn't just throw our hands up and have a free for all, for one.... and she IS tired at bedtime, she will be protesting going to bed and then a second later, she's snoring.... we don't leave her in the bedroom, we stay and snuggle the whole time...she would just play and play all day.... and yes, in theory it sounds great to let her go to bed when she says she's ready, but that would be a looooong time before dh and I were ready, and it would not make for a very good situation for cranky mama, dh, and dd to be staying up til midnight. And I have tried the snacks in a ice cube tray. I have tried a lot of things. I guess I am not coming across clearly here. I am looking for concrete examples of how I might approach things.... and believe me, I talk and explain about everything! and, last night when she said she was hungry we gave her food, and she picked at it, and so I asked if she was hungry or if she wanted to stay up a little longer (at this point it was 10 pm, an hour and a half later than she usually goes to bed, and she was yawning and rubbing her eyes). She said yes, she just wanted to stay up a little longer, and that she didn't want the food. We put the food away, said she could stay up ten more minutes...she helped dh set a timer. When the timer went off, she said "but I don't want to go to bed, I'm hungry." I really want to do things differently, and I am really trying, but I have limits and needs too, including being in bed before ten pm. and I will not be a patient mama who can attend to her dd's needs during the day if I do this every night. And honestly, it's not good for dd either because she gets up at the same time every morning, no matter what time she goes to sleep, and when she's not well rested....well it's not fun, for her or for me.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

emilyrose if she overtired to that degree, yes I would lean heavier on meeting the underlying need than the spoken want. That does require a judgement call on my part, and I am okay with that when ds is not offering me any other 'out'. Over time help her connect the spoken words to the underlying needs. I know that sounds like a lot of psychobabble...I wasn't sure how else to say it. In real life, that might sound like me offering a snack once, then if it was ignored, I would not get another one. At most I would have told ds "If you really want something, you need to get out of bed and go make that for yourself." I don't think I would say "Go to sleep right now, no food, period!"...because it's usually possible to be very firm without actually using challenging language. I know with ds, there is no way he will get out of bed to prepare a snack he doesn't really want. If it was about hunger, he'd have eaten the first snack, kwim? Getting him another one is just a distraction at that point. I'd focus on the need for sleep.

Sometimes, they just can't focus on what they need...or they just don't want too...yes it's a tough spot. I think it *can* feel secure and nurturing to have another person offer loving guidance when you are in that state of mind. There are times when I've been over tired and not getting enough rest and loved ones firmly reminded me that other things can wait, I needed to get rest. It is a nurturing feeling (for me anyway). It's almost a relief!


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emilyrose* 
ok, just to clarify... we didn't just throw our hands up and have a free for all, for one....

I was *really* not trying to say that you had. It can just seem like that's the alternative when the advice is "Don't have limits." There can be kind of a vacuum in there where it feels like you no longer have the old tools, but don't have new ones and often people feel like they're just in the middle of a chaotic free for all. I was just trying to reassure you, really.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emilyrose* 
and she IS tired at bedtime, she will be protesting going to bed and then a second later, she's snoring

For me, the goal would be to figure out why she's fighting her body's cues, then. If she's trying to exert control over her life (soooo common for this age), this might be one thing she feels like she can control. Maybe you could see how you could help her feel more in control in *other* areas (clothing, eating, picking out toys, cleaning up, ect.)

Or if there's some issue specifically around sleep--maybe she wakes up and wants you there, maybe it's dark and scary, etc. Perhaps you could address those issues (co-sleep, set up a little nest with a pillow and blanket on the floor in the den while you and your husband watch TV before bed so she has company, etc.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emilyrose* 
And honestly, it's not good for dd either because she gets up at the same time every morning, no matter what time she goes to sleep, and when she's not well rested....well it's not fun, for her or for me.

No, I hear you. It might be ugly for a while until she learns to read her own body and trust that you aren't going to be making decisions for her. She may need to feel tired and grouchy a LOT before she's convinced that going to sleep is worth it. When my son was that age and wanted to stay up later than we did, we pulled his portable DVD player into our bed and he would lay in betw. us with movies and headphones--both our needs could be met. Now, he'll stay up downstairs, and come climb into the family bed when he's ready. I set him up with food and whatever else he needs, and he turns out the lights and comes up when he's ready. And sometimes he's grouchy the next day, and I'll just point that out and that it could be b/c he might not have gotten enough sleep. It's a learning process. But, I would rather he do it at 5--with our support and help, than start for the first time when he goes off to college like most kids.

Believe me, it takes a LOT of trust in your kid and a lot of work up front (especially if you're going from controlling to giving back some of that). But, even with a five year old, I can see enormous benefits--and I'm imagining that it will only get better as he learns to listen and trust himself and not just act or react based on outside forces (like my childhood and so many others).

Anyway, good luck with whatever you decide! And feel free to ask more questions or whatever!


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLmom_3* 
I understand what you are saying (I couldn't stand feeling they are going to bed hungry) but the other thing that goes through my mind is the possible issues that could arise later out of habit of eating so close to bedtime. Most health "officials" (pediatricians, nutritionists, etc.) tell even adults not to eat meals too close to bedtime because of digestion and your body's ability to burn off fats, etc. A healthy snack would be considered but I would be afraid if I allowed them to eat "dinner" at bedtime, I would be setting habits that could cause health problems or weight issues later.

Health officials will say all kinds of things that discourages people from listening to their bodies.









Quite frankly, I think that's a bunch of crapola. Kids should eat when they're hungry... my DS frequently has a snack right before bed and he actually seems to sleep a little better then, perhaps he's going through a growth spurt.

To the OP, I don't know if my perspective helps any, but I would never consider this a power struggle. If DS isn't hungry at dinner time, then he doesn't eat.. and if he's hungry later, he eats then. He does frequently ask for a snack around bedtime, so I've just started asking if he's hungry before we head for bed.

There are some reasons why she her hunger schedule may be different from yours. But even if she's delaying bedtime, what's the big deal if she has a little snack when she's hungry? If you deny it, you start making it a big issue, and if you just take the 5 minutes to get her a snack and then start on bedtime then it's no big deal.


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## beka1977 (Aug 1, 2004)

In our house this was a power issue. DS - age 3 - would wait until his pjs were on and he was settled in bed and then suddenly he was hungry. Now I don't assume that I always know when he is hungry/full - but it is an awful big coincidence that this always happened when he didn't want to go to bed. He would often send us downstairs for a glass of water, and then when we came all the way back up would declare that he needed food. Food was unrestricted the rest of the time so it wasn't like he was previously being denied food.

What has worked for us is to say "Okay you can have a slice of bread." It is almost always the same food, something filling, but unexciting. This way there is no extended debate about what he wants, and no fun benefit to playing this game. If he is really hungry he will eat the bread. If he doesn't want it, then he can't be that hungry.


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