# Free range parenting in someone else's house (update, my mom cut dd's hair)



## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

for those of you who have read any past threads of mine, you know that my mom and I have a fairly toxic/difficult reationship although it has improved a little over the last year or so.

SO and I have picked a date to get married and we are going to be living apart for the next 6 months or so until that time. This is not a decision we take lightly and we have very strong feelings about it, so please no "how could you put your child through this" type responses. I'm really looking for support here.

I am going to be staying with my parents and he will be staying with roommates/friends. The kids will be with both of us but primarily with me since I'm nursing dd and there is more room anyway at my parents' place. mY dad really wants to help and offered to let me stay rent free (for the first time since I was.....16????) so that SO and I can save up money for our future plans. We would love to buy a house and the market for it is good right now....this gives us a chance to work on that. So I am very indebted to him for that generosity.

Now....my mom was and is extremely overprotective. When ds visits her, she follows him everywhere, even to the bathroom. She has a lovely, very safe fenced backyard that can be seen from several windows in the house, but she won't let him play out there unless she is out there with him. The yard is l-shaped and she won't even let him go around the corner without her accompanying him. Ds is accustomed to going outside with his neighborhood friends here and having the run of the yard and the neighbor's yard while I keep an eye on him from inside.at our house, ds can open the fridge and get himself a drink or snack from the bottom shelf; at her house, she still wants him to wear a bib. You get the idea.

I know this is probably sounding like a complaint, but I'm committed to making this work for 6 months, but without losing my own parenting style completely. I'm willing to give in on things, especially in the area of cleaning, because we are a lot more relaxed here and my mom likes a scrupulously clean house. I can do that, given that it's her house and i'm living there for free. But I'm not willing to go back to babying ds in every aspect of life.

Has anyone been in this situation? Again, this is something that I HAVE to deal with, so please don't tell me not to move. I know there's goign to be some conflict. I would just like to minimize it and hear from others what is reasonable and what isn't. I should add that when she is in charge of my kids, babysittign or just spending time with them, I defer to her. If I'm not there and she wants to spend her whole day following ds around or cutting up his chicken nuggets that's her prerogative. She is Grandma and I understand taht she is going to have a different way of doing things. I just don't want her to try and make ME do it her way. Just like I'm not trying to make her do things my way. does that make sense?

Any grandparents on this board I would love to hear your perspective!!


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

I want to offer you some advice but I don't think I have any that would be constructive. I think you are heading into a very difficult situation and I hope it turns out ok.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

I think that keeping in mind that it's very temporary will help. I'd also work on non-violent communication with your mom.

When it starts driiving you bonker, have the kids spend some time with their dad or go out together as a family to a park or something. Don't let yourself feel trapped, because you really aren't. You are making a decision to delay gratification, which is a very mature thing to do. Keep an eye on the long term and don't get sucked into the details, which will pass VERY quickly.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I live with my parents right now and we have had to make sacrafices to make it work. It was very rocky at first but has evened out a lot now. I don't really have any specific advice, but I have found that being firm about what is important to me and compromising on other things (even parenting things) helps us to keep a positive atmosphere in the house. Talking about these things ahead of time might help, even if she is mad initially she will probably talk with her friends and get perspective that helps her ease up on some things. Or she will tell you that it is her house, she is letting you stay for free, and the conditions of that (which is good to know before moving in also).


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
I think that keeping in mind that it's very temporary will help. I'd also work on non-violent communication with your mom.

When it starts driiving you bonker, have the kids spend some time with their dad or go out together as a family to a park or something. Don't let yourself feel trapped, because you really aren't. You are making a decision to delay gratification, which is a very mature thing to do. Keep an eye on the long term and don't get sucked into the details, which will pass VERY quickly.

That is very encouraging, thank you.







Having a concrete date is what will help me keep my sanity, I think. ds is very excited and wants to move today....I think he is expecting it to be one big party from now til April


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
I live with my parents right now and we have had to make sacrafices to make it work. It was very rocky at first but has evened out a lot now. I don't really have any specific advice, but I have found that being firm about what is important to me and compromising on other things (even parenting things) helps us to keep a positive atmosphere in the house. Talking about these things ahead of time might help, even if she is mad initially she will probably talk with her friends and get perspective that helps her ease up on some things. Or she will tell you that it is her house, she is letting you stay for free, and the conditions of that (which is good to know before moving in also).

Would you be willing toshare specifics? I'm interested in hearing about what parenting things you've compromised on and how it worked for you. Like what things you are firm about and what you were able to let go, and if that affected your relationship with your kids. That is my main concern, that their respect for me will be undermined with two extra adults chiming in on everything I say.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Right or wrong, when people have physical (as in housing) and financial control, they often tend to feel that they should have control over other areas as well. I guess just keep your eye on the prize (the end date and the fact that you'll be saving lots of money).

It's good that you're willing to let your mom interact with your DS as she sees fit and you just don't want her to try to influence the way _you_ choose to parent. I guess just keep repeating, "Thanks mom, but this is how we've always done it and it works for us."


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy* 
...I think he is expecting it to be one big party from now til April









it may be that way for him.

He's going to GRANDMA'S house


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Its six months. Its not going to kill you or stunt your son etc. Maybe he will really enjoy hanging out with grandma. Maybe he will be willing to humor her. In that case she is the one wasting time following him around every where and babying him. I have a friend that baby's my dd and dd eats it up. I roll my eyes. whatever. Is your mom going to be around all the time? Will there be regular chunks of time where your children will be free to putz around the house without grandma watching their every move. Hey, maybe she will start to relax the more time she spends around them and realizes how capable they are. One can hope







And their dad will want to see them a lot. So when you feel like you are going to blow a fuse, time to go spend some time with daddy.

That said, I think if grandmas hovering starts causing your son to freak out you will need to stand up for him. You will need to be calm and firm. I wouldn't use terms like AP or free range. Use words she will understand (even if it makes you cringe inside) "Mom, he is a good boy. He can play outside alone." or "Mom, he is a big boy, he does not need a bib."

And you end of the deal is to make sure you are not overlooking behaviors others may see as irritating, dangerous or unacceptable. Make sure your kids and you are respecting house rules, being tidy, respecting our house mates needs and desires. You may not feel he needs to be followed around because you don't mind what happens when he does but if grandma is heart broken or stressed out or angered over what happens when he is roaming free then indeed he does need more supervision while at her house.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

yeah ds definitely eats up the attention.

I know they will want to see their dad but he works nights and sleeps days so he can only take them overnight 1 kid at a time, 2 nights a week, plus he and I are still going to be sharing the car, but from two separate residences....oh it makes my head hurt to think about it......

I think ds and I will have to also talk about the expectations at grandma's house, that he will still be expected to listen to me. My mom has had a bad habit in the past of "overruling" me to the point that I felt backed into a corner where my only choice to assert myself as the mother was resorting to spanking the child. Which I resisted, but then he got the message that that dynamic was ok.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy* 
Would you be willing toshare specifics? I'm interested in hearing about what parenting things you've compromised on and how it worked for you. Like what things you are firm about and what you were able to let go, and if that affected your relationship with your kids. That is my main concern, that their respect for me will be undermined with two extra adults chiming in on everything I say.

I had to find less messy art to have dd do in the winter so she could explore art without my mom freaking about glitter and other things being harmful if ingested by kids and dogs, limit my dd in where she could have her toys (which is very hard for us because I think a house should show signs of kids being around and dd is used to spreading out), stay on top of any pile of crumbs until my step-dad went on vacation and my mom stopped blaming me for all the mess because the mess went on vacation also, go outside with my dd even in the backyard until she was in first grade, do things with the family more often than I would like to, be quick to intervene when my dd does something that my mom thinks is really not good for a child to do and deserves a punishment.

I have been able to parent the way I want to still and there are many sacrifices they have made to have us here too. It is just hard to hear a lot of judgment, to have to do a lot of education, and to have to explain yourself a lot. I am a single mom and used to making the choices with dd without any interference, and the second guessing is the worst. The little compromises have cut down a lot on the pressure so I have the strength to stand firm on the bigger things like parenting and not insisting that my dd eat an 8 oz piece of chicken breast (which is four servings even for an adult) in addition to a slice of bread, a huge pile of vegetables, and a 12-16 oz glass of milk at each meal and not being allowed to have anything else after the meal if she hasn't eaten all of that. Luckily I took a nutrition class in college, in addition to learning the food pyramid every year until high school,and am able to come back at her with what food serving sizes and daily recommended amounts are.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Have you considered enlisting your Dad's help?


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

How old are your children?

I would aim for keeping things that he will really notice, like getting his own snacks and drinks, the same. Talk to your mom about them, ask her to help you arrange a shelf that's for him, that kind of thing.

I would just plan to go outside with him, or that she will. When you do, just take something to do such that he has more freedom/feels less watched. It is a different neighborhood and your mom might actually have a good feel for the relative safety of it.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mtiger* 
Have you considered enlisting your Dad's help?

unfortunately that is a waste of breath. He openly acknowledges that no matter what he says or does my mom is going to be who she is.

If it escalates he may occasionally intervene in the heat of the moment but he has pretty much gotten to the point that he just stays out of it.


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## Learning_Mum (Jan 5, 2007)

Well I think to a certain extent you're going to have to defer to your Mum's rules, as it is her house.

I would say that if she wants to follow him around, let her. I would tell her that he is quite capable of doing XYZ by himself and continue to parent in the way you do but let her follow him. I think your son will realise that's the way Grandma is and you are different.

I guess just practise saying "Thanks Mum, but I'M his Mother. You just concentrate on having fun with him and let me worry about the discipline."


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## [email protected] (Sep 7, 2010)

Could you discuss ground rules w/ your mom _prior_ to moving in? So that you're both on the same page?


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## MissMaegie'sMama (Jul 27, 2006)

This:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
Its six months. Its not going to kill you or stunt your son etc. Maybe he will really enjoy hanging out with grandma. Maybe he will be willing to humor her. In that case she is the one wasting time following him around every where and babying him.

And you end of the deal is to make sure you are not overlooking behaviors others may see as irritating, dangerous or unacceptable. Make sure your kids and you are respecting house rules, being tidy, respecting our house mates needs and desires. You may not feel he needs to be followed around because you don't mind what happens when he does but if grandma is heart broken or stressed out or angered over what happens when he is roaming free then indeed he does need more supervision while at her house.

And this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Learning_Mum* 
Well I think to a certain extent you're going to have to defer to your Mum's rules, as it is her house.

I would say that if she wants to follow him around, let her. I would tell her that he is quite capable of doing XYZ by himself and continue to parent in the way you do but let her follow him. I think your son will realise that's the way Grandma is and you are different.

I guess just practise saying "Thanks Mum, but I'M his Mother. You just concentrate on having fun with him and let me worry about the discipline."

If I have read your post right, it sounds like G-ma is overprotective, not necessarily controlling. From your siggy, I see your DS is almost three years old, which (IMO) is old enough to understand that different people have different expectations. He will probably figure out fast enough that grandma expects him to wear a bib and sit at the table when she feeds him a snack, and that when he goes outside to play she will be right on top of him. It might temporarily put a cramp in his style, but he's young, and it's likely he will adapt to grandma's lifestyle and helicopter ways.

Since this living arrangement is only for six months, I would encourage you to not interfere with your mom's expectations of your son (unless, of course, something she does endangers his safety, which sounds pretty unlikely given how overprotective she is). Expecting a child to wear a bib while eating a snack might seem like micromanagement to you, but to your mom it might seem like a good way to avoid extra laundry. Likewise, her watching over him like a hawk while he plays in the backyard might seem to you as a restriction of his freedom to play and explore, but to her it may seem like the only way to make sure he's safe. As long as she respects your son as a person, I don't see that living with an overprotective grandma for half a year will imprint lasting damage on his spirit and curiousity. Like the PP quoted above said, let g-ma set the ground rules (shoes off in the house, supervised outside, or whatever your mom expects), while you handle the discipline. This situation doesn't sound hopeless, but it does sound like there might be a learning curve involved.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

ok, so now my question is, I know this is probably going to make me sound awful, but....I have TWO kids, my mom only had me, so she doesn't "get" that there are times when you have to sacrifice one kid for the other, so to speak. i.e. let dd cry for a minute while I tend to ds, or vice versa. Expect ds to get his own snack so that I can nurse the baby.

SO said that I should tell my mom that beyond normal age appropriate supervision, the onus is on her to follow him around and micromanage, that I shouldn't be expected to do it, especially with two children. If she wants to do it, fine, but i'm not. I'm not sure I agree but at the same time I can't imagine what kind of stress it would cause me to try and keep both kids "supervised" at the level she expects all the time. I should add that she has never had to watch both kids alone for more than an hour or two unless one or both was sleeping. Is that fair to say to her since it's her house? Again I'm not talking about allowing my children to just go wild and tear her house apart. i don't allow that here, either. at my house ds has chores and everything (whereas over there he isn't expected to do much but be cute). I just can't fathom how I can get anything done if I have to keep ds in arm's reach every waking moment.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I would save that for when you are there and she brings it up. I don't think starting out with that kind of point blank statement is going to go over well and it may be unnecessary. Chances are she will see how hard it is when she sees you with them both or she will at least notice you are nursing one child and she will step in to get him what he needs instead of telling you that you should. If at all possible I suggest having her watch both at a time when they are both awake a few times before even moving in. My mom used to say stuff when I reacted in any way that showed any hint of frustration or being upset with my child, but then she started watching her a lot more and she stopped harping on me being human and she admitted that it was hard and told me she didn't know how I did it without losing it more often.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I totally agree with your partner on this. It is fine if she wants to follow him around and baby him and SHE is free to do that. But you are only one person and you can only do so much. So long as he is behaving I would let her do her thing while you do yours and not worry about the amount of work she is creating for herself.


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## Girlprof (Jun 11, 2007)

We have slightly different issues. My parents tend to discipline our kids even when we are there, which makes us batty. They also have different ideas about what is acceptable - they fret more, especially my dad. We were worried when my parents volunteered to be our childcare providers for a month this past summer. In a foreign country, no less.

It ended up working out much better than expected. When we were not around, it was up to them to figure things out. They didn't always make the choices we would have made - the kids ate an awful lot of ice cream - but the choices weren't terrible. I was especially worried about the frequent conflict b/t my father and DS. They ended up working this out and even finding a mutual sense of humor on some things.

So, take heart. You will probably need to make some compromises, but so will they. Your mom will really get a sense of the complications of two children.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Girlprof* 
We have slightly different issues. My parents tend to discipline our kids even when we are there, which makes us batty. They also have different ideas about what is acceptable - they fret more, especially my dad.

yeah that is the type of issue I had when I stayed with them before. I would give ds a fork, she would take it from him calling it dangerous and give him a spoon, I would tell her he is allowed to use a fork and would give it back to him, and she would continue to take it away. or else sulk the entire meal.







even when i was RIGHT THERE.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

I think she is going to get desensitized to it after awhile. I mean if you are fine with letting him go out in the yard, and she feels like he needs to be supervised, she can go out and supervise him. But I think after awhile she'll realize that it's unnecessary. Now if she's like my mom, she won't go out and supervise him, she'll just nag and nag until you absolutely can't hear the own thoughts in your own head _Amy, do you think that's a good idea? Oh, well I see we have different ideas how to raise a child, I would never have done that, when I had my babies, they were all swaddled and asleep in their cribs by 6 pm...are there any big dogs around here? Dogs can jump the fence and kill him so fast, you wouldn't know what hit you...did you hear about that child that was killed in his backyard from a falling roof tile? Amy, this *really* makes me nervous, you need to go get him. What? What was that? That was lightning, wasn't it? Oh, go out with him, for heaven's sake!!!_


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viola* 
\_Amy, do you think that's a good idea? Oh, well I see we have different ideas how to raise a child, I would never have done that, when I had my babies, they were all swaddled and asleep in their cribs by 6 pm...are there any big dogs around here? Dogs can jump the fence and kill him so fast, you wouldn't know what hit you...did you hear about that child that was killed in his backyard from a falling roof tile? Amy, this *really* makes me nervous, you need to go get him. What? What was that? That was lightning, wasn't it? Oh, go out with him, for heaven's sake!!!_









clearly we have the same mother. You've got her down to a _tee_


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *[email protected]* 
Could you discuss ground rules w/ your mom _prior_ to moving in? So that you're both on the same page?

I agree, some pre-move-in ground rules would help in the future if you have to refer back to the agreement.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
I totally agree with your partner on this. It is fine if she wants to follow him around and baby him and SHE is free to do that. But you are only one person and you can only do so much. So long as he is behaving I would let her do her thing while you do yours and not worry about the amount of work she is creating for herself.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viola* 
I think she is going to get desensitized to it after awhile.

I agree. She hasn't lived with him, plus your other child, plus you, all at the same time, 24/7. Gramma work is fun when it's just a couple hours. It's exhausting to continue around the clock and she will change, if nothing else, she'll be more stressed out trying to do more than she has to.


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## baglady (Jul 13, 2009)

MY MIL is extremely overprotective like your mom. She cuts up his food off of plates that I give him, runs across the room in a panic if he trips, etc. At the same time, she lets him do whatever he wants as long as she's watching him like a hawk. It drives me nuts, but I try to choose my battles with it.

It seems to work out the best for us for DH and I to only ask her to not do things that result in behaviors we don't want repeated in our home. So, I bite my tongue about some things. If she wants to run around after him like a chicken with her head cut off all day, fine by me. For other behaviors DH will say, "Hey mom, we're trying to get DS to stop standing on the kitchen table while throwing his entire lunch to the dogs. Why don't you try to get him to stop doing that here too." That's not something he actually does at home, but it is something I don't want him to think is okay either. (Apparently this is okay as long as she has a white knuckled fist hold on his t-shirt.) This approach has worked so far and hasn't resulted in any hurt feelings or overstepping on either side.

I mean who knows how I'll act as a grandma.


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## ewe+lamb (Jul 20, 2004)

I agree with Viola - do you think she'll be able to keep it up for 6 months? I would imagine after a while that she'll realise that he's not a baby and that she needs to let him be a three year old. If she really as Viola described - loved it by the way, then do you not think she'll move onto something else?

I'm sure that the time will pass quickly, maybe you could introduce doing yoga together with her and the kids - it make a difference! Good luck - I don't envy your position!!

PS I just wanted to let you know about my dad who also keeps out of things where my mother is concerned although she lets the kids do what they want to the extreme - doesn't see the danger anyway - this summer she took my kids out to do the garden and gave our dd hedge shears to cut the hedge with and left the kids to their own devices - needless to say that shortly after dd cut ds's finger to the bone with the hedge shears, mother was saying it's nothing don't worry about it, my dad on the other hand just stepped in and called her name in a voice I have never heard him use and we left for the hospital - so he may come to his senses and take a hold of a situation and then things change from thereon - or at least that's what happened with us! Anyway i just wanted to let you know that there is hope that you dad could help you!


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

ok so I just had to update with this gem: my mother cut dd's hair without asking while I was at work. When I got dd back, not only had she cut about an inch off dd's adorable, sideswept bangs (and crookedly/jaggedly too) but all the hair that had grown out past the nape of of her neck in the back, was gone too. I seriously wanted to cry...the haircut lookes horrible. dd's dad was FURIOUS and said that no matter what we will be rearranging work schedules so that dd isn't being watched by my mom much or at all (not just because of the hair cutting, but more because of her laissez faire attitude when we spoke up, as if WE were the crazy overreacting ones.). She also "accidentally on purpose" broke our stroller. So we are off to a bit of a rocky start.

However I am really proud of myself because I have not been engaging her one bit. When we were starting to head that direction, I got my guts up and said, "mom, we're two grown women, let's please skip the cattiness and just act like it." I know that it is driving her crazy because I haven't so far gotten into an argument or blown up, but....I think maybe I am maturing or going to counseling has worked or something







because I really am not interested, at all, in eliciting any reactions from my mom, or in engaging her in any drama. This is a first for me.

I'm just doing me, and my family


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

I think when you are at someone else's house, you give on some things. She does not want him helping himself to the fridge, fine, he does not need to do that. If putting a bib on him thrills her and doesn't upset him, then whatever. The haircut thing would really get to me, but I have big hang ups over that.

Is there any way you and SO can make things work to live together? Can he move in with you? Is there any place you all can afford to live together?

It sounds miserable. (((hugs))) But I am afraid that much of it, you need to just deal with because of the living situation. Now, if you were paying half the bills and asking for nothing free, like food or babysitting, it would be a little different. I hope the wedding is as soon as possible.

Do you mind sharing why you two are separated yet still plan to marry in the future?


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa1970* 
I think when you are at someone else's house, you give on some things. She does not want him helping himself to the fridge, fine, he does not need to do that. If putting a bib on him thrills her and doesn't upset him, then whatever. The haircut thing would really get to me, but I have big hang ups over that.

Is there any way you and SO can make things work to live together? Can he move in with you? Is there any place you all can afford to live together?

It sounds miserable. (((hugs))) But I am afraid that much of it, you need to just deal with because of the living situation. Now, if you were paying half the bills and asking for nothing free, like food or babysitting, it would be a little different. I hope the wedding is as soon as possible.

Do you mind sharing why you two are separated yet still plan to marry in the future?

I'm not paying rent but I am doing the cooking and cleaning and providing the food. As of right now, she isn't doing any alone babysitting of dd at all, and very little for ds (only maybe to drive him to school or something). We are still reeling from the haircut thing (and also the fact that she gave dd food we told her not to give, and so on). I lved with them before when I was just getting on my feet when ds was a baby and I DID pay rent, utilities, etc and it was actually worse. Go figure.

We are getting married in april. We were living together but for religious/spiritual reasons we are trying to get our lives on track and felt it would be better if we stopped living together until we are married. There are legal loose ends that I have to tie up before we can get married and it is finances that prevent me from doing that right now. so that is the plan. we are still together and very much in love







i'm looking into subsidized housing for me and the kids though, just until April. The goal here is to save money, get back on track with our religious principles, and earnng money while still beign available as parents. Tryng to find the right balance.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

I would be extremely angry at someone cutting my child's hair without permission. You have a sticky situation there OP.


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## lynsage (Jul 13, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> for those of you who have read any past threads of mine, you know that my mom and I have a fairly toxic/difficult reationship although it has improved a little over the last year or so.


I just went back and read some of those threads to try to get a good grasp of the situation before commenting and I came across this: "AND my mom has done things like call the police on me over made-up or grossly exaggerated stories she gave about me and my ds".

GET OUT OF THERE, NOW. There is no religious or spiritual reason to have your kids in a situation where they are alone with this person for one SECOND and you've already said that your mother is going to do whatever she wants even if you're sitting right there telling her not to. Stay with friends, stay with your fiance's friends and don't sleep in the same room as him, whatever, there are ways to live according to whatever you've decided is morally right without continuing to expose yourself and your children to this extremely dangerous situation.

We have tons of threads on here about the famous formula-and-other-forbidden-items-feeding, hair-cutting-behind-parents'-backs', CPS/police-calling grandmas. The common thread is always that these people are TOXIC, usually not mentally well, NEVER emotionally well, and when they are confronted or challenged in any kind of meaningful way, they go nuts and escalate the situation. Your mom might get better one day, but what she just did is solid proof that she's NOT getting better right now, and you need to do whatever it takes to protect your kids from her right now.

Years from now, if not sooner, you are going to look back on this situation and regret the decision you made to go back into that toxic mess. Believe me. The only way to make this better is to decide to put a stop to it RIGHT NOW even if it means going to a motel with your kids until you and your fiance can figure out where you're going next. No amount of saving up money is worth what could happen if you stay in this situation with your children.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

"SO said that I should tell my mom that beyond normal age appropriate supervision, the onus is on her to follow him around and micromanage, that I shouldn't be expected to do it"

Does she expect you to do it?


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## thefreckledmama (Jun 1, 2007)

We live with my inlaws. The best advice I can give you is to sit down asap, and discuss your living situation and make some very concise boundaries and "rules"-both on your end and your moms, and then stick to them like glue. I know with my inlaws, any time we let boundary lines blur, it becomes increasingly hard to maintain them, which causes a lot of unnecessary stress and tension. Just a for instance...we don't allow the kids to have any kind of artificial sweeteners, my inlaws use nothing but. When there was a big deal being made over a dessert my MIL was making one day and the kids were super excited for it. Turns out my MIL made it with Splenda. I decided that a single serving wouldn't hurt anything, and allowed it. Next thing I know my MIL was giving them all sorts of foods with Splenda. When I tried to talk to her about it, she said that she figured since I let them have it the one time, it was now ok. I have learned that although it can sometimes get tiring to always be on guard maintaining certain standards about what is and isn't allowed when there are grandparents in the home, it's easier than trying to return to them when exceptions are made.

ETA: I completely understand your not wanting to live together for religious/spiritual reasons BUT I would also look at the bigger picture, and the health and wellbeing (especially mentally/emotionally) of all involved staying with your mom. Just a thought...could you possibly get a place now, but keep separate bedrooms until the wedding? My MIL and FIL are super religious and very much about "keeping up appearances". They were divorced for a few years, and when they were working things out toward getting remarried, they bought a house together, and kept separate bedrooms until they were married again. While I totally understand your situation and know what it is to do what you have to do for a while, I just wanted to throw that out as a possibility you may not have thought of yet. {{{{hugs}}}} At the very least, you know there's light at the end of the tunnel, and you only have to deal a few more months at your moms.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Oh my gosh. I do not care as a general rule if someone takes my kids to get their hair cut but they are 8 to 14 years old. If someone chopped of my 8 month olds hair though....I am about to cry for you. Oh. my. goodness. Ok following him around and babying him so long as he does not mind is one thing but cutting your kids hair is such a trespass. I think this is only going to deteriorate.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Yup, ds stayed with his dad last night and after dropping him at school this morning, he came over to get his lunchbox and pic up dd and I. Except that I was still asleep when he got there....lol. So he putzed around outside while he waited for me to get ready, cleaning out the car, shining up the tires (he loves to do this stuff). My mom came home in the middle of this and went compeltely beserk that we were alone together in her house. Mind you we were not holed up together alone in a bedroom and he wasn't even in the house although apparently she parekd around the corner before coming in and was watching, to "catch" him in the act of going in her house while she wasn't there.

It was greed on before I moved in that he wouldn't be hanging out here with me unless there was someone else here; that is her rule and we understand that. at the same time he tried to point out that he has a child living in this house and that gives him the right to drop by unannounced to see hsi child or pick her up and take her somewhere as was the plan. We ended up staying out until evening and when I got back my mom had rooted through all my boxes and pulled out every piece of his clothing, most of which needed washing, and stuffed them, dirty, into a garbage bag. She met me at the door with ti and told me that his clothes are not welcome in her house. rotfl.









I would be hurt/offended by it but "his clothes are not welcome in my home" just sounds so ridiculous that I ended up laughing right in front of her. oops.


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## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

You need to get out of there, mama. Your mother has no respect for your boundaries or your partnership and will never, ever, ever be fully trustworthy with your children. Cutting your baby's hair? Rooting through your things? No. Unacceptable on every level--and it's only going to get worse the longer you stay. You are teaching her how to treat you. She's learning that you'll put up with her bad behavior and subject your children to it as well.









This is one of those situations that you're going to look back on in a few years and wonder why you put up with it for as long as you did.


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## ewe+lamb (Jul 20, 2004)

Oh my gosh - this is just going to get worse - i can't imagine this improving - she isn't going to respect you, ITA withthe other posters who are suggesting other ways of saving money etc, this is just too toxic to continue on with - are you really sure that you can do this until APRIL? Thats a long time when faced with provocation every day, the more you don't react to her the more she's going to continue to do things to provoke a reaction, I'm sorry that you are in the situation but I'd have to change something about this if I were you. Big big hugs to you


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

Yea, you guys need to move into your own place. You are adults, you are parents, you need to be able to sit in the same room without supervision. It's ridiculous that you're being treated like 13 year olds when you already have a family. Debt sucks, but so do ridiculous rules and a lack of autonomy for your family and your life.


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## SubliminalDarkness (Sep 9, 2009)

I concur. Get out. You have two kids. You're not a child. That ship has sailed. Buying a house is NOT worth the damage that could be done to your relationship with each other or with your children, or TO your children. While I don't think these isolated parenting differences are huge(your son wearing a bib or being followed in the backyard) I think the overall attitude and atmosphere is a bad thing. Get out. Rent a place. Your fiance can keep staying with friends, or stay with you, or.... something.


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## 3xMama (Oct 14, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamalisa*
> 
> Yea, you guys need to move into your own place. You are adults, you are parents, you need to be able to sit in the same room without supervision. It's ridiculous that you're being treated like 13 year olds when you already have a family. Debt sucks, but so do ridiculous rules and a lack of autonomy for your family and your life.


 That. Exactly that.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> Yup, ds stayed with his dad last night and after dropping him at school this morning, he came over to get his lunchbox and pic up dd and I. Except that I was still asleep when he got there....lol. So he putzed around outside while he waited for me to get ready, cleaning out the car, shining up the tires (he loves to do this stuff). My mom came home in the middle of this and went compeltely beserk that we were alone together in her house. Mind you we were not holed up together alone in a bedroom and he wasn't even in the house although apparently she parekd around the corner before coming in and was watching, to "catch" him in the act of going in her house while she wasn't there.
> 
> ...


This is going to sound terribly cold, but frankly if you choose to stay there for the next 6 months I just won't be able to muster up any sympathy when you post stuff like this day after day. You're making the decision to subject yourself, your DP, and your child to this woman.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Since at least part of this is based on a religious believe, I assume you have a relationship with some sort of priest/minister/pastor/rabbi/imam (have I left anyone out?). What does he/she advise? Can he/she help you find a different living situation for the short term? Talk to you mother about respecting boundaries? Mediate a meeting about house rules? Seems like that would be the first place to turn to for some additional resources / advise / ideas / help.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

In a nutshell, What limabean said. sorry


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

It seems like you are allowing your mother to greatly disrespect your fiance and the father of your children. Not to mention, letting her belittle your role as mother. I dunno. It sounds like you have your mind made up, but I urge you to reconsider if it's really really worth it.

eta- I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but it sounds like she's going to try to split you two up. She has more access to do it now that you are living with her.


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

I understand you wanting to recalibrate your religious ideals before getting married. But at what cost?

I am having a hard time mustering up any sympathy for anyone other than your poor soon to be husband and your children.


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## Petronella (Aug 22, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *oaktreemama*
> 
> I am having a hard time mustering up any sympathy for anyone other than your poor soon to be husband and your children.


Same here; except minus the "sorry for soon to be husband" part.


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## Spring Lily (Sep 26, 2006)

To be very honest, it's not just just mother that is the issue here. If she is toxic, that is her issue. If you allow her to treat you, your children, and your fiance this way, then it is YOUR issue.

It sounds like you could be an enabler. Enablers tend to allow toxic people to treat them badly, manipulate them or put them in impossible situations. They will either just go along with it or make excuses for the toxic person, because it's easier than standing up to that person and making that person uncomfortable. That might not describe your relationship exactly, but there are some real similarities. You mentioned that you've done a lot of growing up and maturing, but I have to tell you that allowing her to treat you this way is NOT a sign of maturity. Maturity is having healthy relationships around you. It's great that things are changing in your life and you aren't reacting to her anymore like you used to, but you may have a false sense of progress if you're still willing to put yourself and your kids in such an unhealthy atmosphere.

I hope you take to heart what the other posters said about trying to find other ways to honor your religious beliefs until the wedding, but without living with your mom.

Living with her may help you stick to your spiritual beliefs, but it makes your spirit sick.


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## montlake (Mar 13, 2008)

I don't think any advice here is going to be of any help. I've followed your other threads and your mother's behaviour is quite insane. I think you know that she will not relent in any way and is likely to get worse based on your past stints of staying in their home. I mean this is a woman who insisted on inspecting her adult child's underwear on a regular basis!!! If you are going to stay there, you are just going to have to take it. I just hope you continue to stay strong and not let her wear you down to a completely co-dependent state which seems to be the pattern. Good luck!


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## Celtain (Mar 10, 2004)

All I can say is, I had to stay with my mom for a very difficult period in my life. She was extreamly toxic while I was growing up (read as beatings, favoring one of my brothers to the point that my other brother and I STILL refer to him as the golden child, I don't ever remember hearing her say I love you) Now that we are all grown up she tries to make it like it wasn't so bad and OUTRIGHT denies that some of these incidences never happened.

That being said, the only way I managed to get through it was to drink. I hope this isn't what happens to you. I can only say from experience, get out now. Be spiritual and raise your family together. Good luck!


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Celtain*
> 
> All I can say is, I had to stay with my mom for a very difficult period in my life. She was extreamly toxic while I was growing up (read as beatings, favoring one of my brothers to the point that my other brother and I STILL refer to him as the golden child, I don't ever remember hearing her say I love you) Now that we are all grown up she tries to make it like it wasn't so bad and OUTRIGHT denies that some of these incidences never happened.
> 
> That being said, the only way I managed to get through it was to drink. I hope this isn't what happens to you. I can only say from experience, get out now. Be spiritual and raise your family together. Good luck!


nope, no drinking I'm trying to stay out of the house when she's here. iT doesn't bother me too much because I think my mindset was different this time. Instead of "moving in" and hoping for a mother daighter relationship, I look at it as a safe place to lay my head at night, a temproary thing, and treat it like I would treat living in a shelter, with no emotional attachment. I'm in counseling and one of the things I am working on is letting go of my expectations about my mom.

ds and dd are spending some nights with their dad (whenever he isn't working overnights) and he also takes them while I am at work 4 evenings a week and brings them back just at bedtime. I'm working on planning some free/cheap activities for tues/thurs mornings (the 2 days that ds isn't in school) so that we can be out of the house those days as well.

I think if I can maintain detached emotionally from the whole thing we can survive 6 months. i'm still on the list for subsidized housing so if we make our way to the top of that list we may be out of here sooner than that.


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## lynsage (Jul 13, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> I look at it as a safe place to lay my head at night
> 
> I think if I can maintain detached emotionally from the whole thing we can survive 6 months.


I have read some more of your old threads and I truly cannot comprehend why you think this house is a safe place for you or your children to be for five minutes, much less six months.

*It's not a safe place*. It's a deeply unsafe place where you live with people that know have repeatedly emotionally abused you, created or contributed to dangerous situations for you, and threatened you with police and CPS involvement in your life, and you also suspect that sexual abuse may have happened to you at the hands of one or more of these people, and you also report that your parents have continued to make you uncomfortable with boundary-violating sexual comments and actions as an adult.

Emotional detachment on your part will do NOTHING to protect your children from being abused by these people.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

But can your kids detach emotionally? Can they ignore g'ma's manipulating and craziness?

I know it's for moral/ethical as well as financial reasons you're doing this, but i was a single mama, and moving OUT of a stressful, manipulative, emotionally-abusive atmosphere damaged my DD1 enough. I would seriously consider whether the moral message of not living together with DP until marriage is worth much to your kids when coupled with the emotional message of how much is worthwhile sacrificing for that goal. Is it more important to live apart than protect your kids from this toxicity? Your kids are currently living in a situation which is well-recognised as non-ideal (parents separated, primary home stressful and toxic) and you are choosing that for them. You are deciding to put them there for non-essential reasons. Or perhaps they are essential (i don't pretend to know what you do about your life!). But please be aware that i left DD1's father for VERY VERY sound reasons when she was 4 months old, and she has seen him at LEAST 5 times a week since then (with always 1 sometimes 2 overnights every week) and we have always been friendly/amicable (as in he and DH go out to the cinema together, he eats here often and we eat there, we have family days out with all 3 parents and both kids, etc. etc.), and she has lived with me and DH (who i'm not married to in the legal sense) since just before she was 3 in a VERY stable situation, and she is *still* recovering from the upheavals she lived through.. As an example of what i mean, when DD was 2 months old her dad and i split, 2 months later i moved out with her to a new place. She STILL flinches at the sound of parcel tape being pulled off the roll, for months after i left him she would cry hysterically whenever she heard that noise. Us moving had a massive impact on her, and i was moving to a safe, much happier environment. Don't underestimate the impact these things can have, they are little sponges and it all soaks in, however detached YOU can be. If you have to stay there i would seriously consider the kids going to live with your DP.


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## Celtain (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> i'm still on the list for subsidized housing so if we make our way to the top of that list we may be out of here sooner than that.


You need to let the powers that be at subsidised housing that you are now HOMELESS with 2 children. That staying at your parents house was the very first step up from sleeping in your car. That may move you closer to the top of the list.


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## fuzzylogic (Nov 3, 2010)

I lived with my mom---twice, out of desperate financial necessity---and the damage done took 20+ years to repair. My younger two are still not close to their grandmother, and she does everything possible to drive a wedge between them and my older one. It isn't worth your sanity. I'd go on welfare before I did that again, or stay with my seriously abusive husband.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

I haven't read past posts of yours but if you have a child with this man and have lived together in the past, and assuming that the relationship is healthy, why not just get married immediately to satisify whatever religious requirements you feel are necessary?

I don't understand why you would deliberately invite an unhealthy situation into the lives of yourself and your children (and your future husband) for something that looks like it is about appearances. Why not make a different choice completely for something that is healthier and yet still meets whatever moral or religious constraints you are putting on yourself?


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

I am still legally married to my extremely abusive ex. We have been separated since march 2007 but out of fear and financial constraints I never pursued divorce until now. I finally have a reason to do it but of course it takes time. It will be about another month before I save up the balance of what i owe the lawyer to set a court date, then about 2 weeks from then until the actual hearing, at which time I'll be legally free to marry. but that is the best case scenario. If the car keeps cbreaking down, the kids keep outgrowing/ruining clothes, every bill collector I've ever owed keeps threatening to take me to court, it really will take until April. We just chose April to get married because we knew that by then for sure I will have gotten the legal stuff taken care of. Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Karenwith4*
> 
> I haven't read past posts of yours but if you have a child with this man and have lived together in the past, and assuming that the relationship is healthy, why not just get married immediately to satisify whatever religious requirements you feel are necessary?
> 
> I don't understand why you would deliberately invite an unhealthy situation into the lives of yourself and your children (and your future husband) for something that looks like it is about appearances. Why not make a different choice completely for something that is healthier and yet still meets whatever moral or religious constraints you are putting on yourself?


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## Marissamom (Dec 17, 2009)

I find cutting someone else's child's hair without permission to be absolutely inappropriate. And I agree that at this point it's time to get out of there asap, because your kids are not old enough to be able to distance themselves. um, I would freak if my partner, and the father of my kids, wasn't allowed to be in my parents' front yard without them present. it's the front yard, what are you going to do? I can see why not in the house, but the yard?


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## SubliminalDarkness (Sep 9, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Marissamom*
> 
> I find cutting someone else's child's hair without permission to be absolutely inappropriate. And I agree that at this point it's time to get out of there asap, because your kids are not old enough to be able to distance themselves. um, I would freak if my partner, and the father of my kids, wasn't allowed to be in my parents' front yard without them present. it's the front yard, what are you going to do? *I can see why not in the house, but the yard?*


I can't. She's a grown woman, with children. This is all entirely nonsensical, and nothing more than manipulative and controlling. Could her parents reasonably put their foot down about the boyfriend spending the night? Yea, they could. It seems silly to me, but it's how some people feel. But..... the front yard?! Or the living room, with the kids around? Geez.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> I am still legally married to my extremely abusive ex. We have been separated since march 2007 but out of fear and financial constraints I never pursued divorce until now. I finally have a reason to do it but of course it takes time. It will be about another month before I save up the balance of what i owe the lawyer to set a court date, then about 2 weeks from then until the actual hearing, at which time I'll be legally free to marry. but that is the best case scenario. If the car keeps cbreaking down, the kids keep outgrowing/ruining clothes, every bill collector I've ever owed keeps threatening to take me to court, it really will take until April. We just chose April to get married because we knew that by then for sure I will have gotten the legal stuff taken care of. Quote:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the explanation. I guess I still don't understand what the point of this exercise is, especially if the PPs are correct and the situation with your mother is as unhealthy and potentially abusive as they indicate. I know you said you were looking for support only for this situation, and not to have anyone question why you are doing this so I won't say anything other than I hope your children are safe and that I hope for their sake you reconsider decisions like this that put them in harm's way.


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## Marissamom (Dec 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SubliminalDarkness*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


People draw the line different places. there was a time when I wasn't allowed to be alone with my BF in my mother's house or even in a room alone with him while other people were home, and she isn't deeply religious or anything. and I wouldn't count young kids as chaperons, too easy to have them in another room, so while I think it's over the top, and somewhat controlling, it wouldn't be as huge a deal. but him not being allowed in the yard is way over the top for me.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

well, he's coming over tonight for dinner and to help me unpack some boxes and just generally hang out with the kids and I, so we'll see how that goes.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

will your mom be there? This is just craziness. What will she do when you guys are married?

Honestly, Christmas is coming, is there anyway you can pick up a second job, beg your friends to watch you kids and just pay your lawyer so you can move on, get out and find some peace? I know it sucks working while your babies are little but I do not see this going well for anyone. 90 days of working your butt off is something everyone will recover from and you could easily make enough money at a seasonal job to cover legal expenses. but for goodness sakes whatever you do do not leave them alone with your mother.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

grrrr I had a whole post i reply and it disappeared, but yes we are trying to make my stay as short as possible. There are somany layers to this situation it is really hard to give the whole picture.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lilyka*
> 
> will your mom be there? This is just craziness. What will she do when you guys are married?
> 
> Honestly, Christmas is coming, is there anyway you can pick up a second job, beg your friends to watch you kids and just pay your lawyer so you can move on, get out and find some peace? I know it sucks working while your babies are little but I do not see this going well for anyone. 90 days of working your butt off is something everyone will recover from and you could easily make enough money at a seasonal job to cover legal expenses. but for goodness sakes whatever you do do not leave them alone with your mother.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

so you guys are my sounding board of sanity. :lol so I just want some affirmation that it was sort of weird that my mom brought my dad with her to go shopping for underwear for ME, right? Only reason I know is because she came home with a bag full of granny panties and goes, "your dad looked all over the place trying to help me find what we though was your size." Uh, wha? That sort of strikes me a little oddly, or am I just hyper sensitive because of things that have happened in the past?

I know the stuff i post probably seems crystal clear to you guys, but I'm telling you I agonize over these things so much. Yesterday my mom flat out lied saying that she hadn't said something that i KNOW she said, I'm 100% positive that I heard it, and I very politely said, "I can continue this conversation when you are able to be honest with me like I am with you and went in my room." She didnt' say anything TO me but did go off on a tirade at my dad about how horrible I am loudly enough that i would hear and feel guilty.

Can I just get some affirmation that families are not supposed to be built quite like this? Or if I'm overreacting, please tell me!


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I guess your mom taking your dad is no more weird than your mom shopping for your undies in the first place. No one shops for my unders but me.

As for the rest of it. You mom sounds crazy. Kinda like my mom. I deal with by not living with her and loving her from a distance.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy*
> 
> so you guys are my sounding board of sanity. :lol so I just want some affirmation that it was sort of weird that my mom brought my dad with her to go shopping for underwear for ME, right? Only reason I know is because she came home with a bag full of granny panties and goes, "your dad looked all over the place trying to help me find what we though was your size." Uh, wha? That sort of strikes me a little oddly, or am I just hyper sensitive because of things that have happened in the past?
> 
> ...


Your mom shopping for your underwear is wacky - I can't decide if it's any more strange that she took your dad with her, but it wouldn't go over well with me.

No - families are not supposed to be built like this...not even a little bit. I hope you can find a way out of there soon, and honestly...don't even think of her home as an option again. She's incredibly toxic.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

that's how I am. She said she thought that she was being helpful because I had mentioned not having enough when I needed to do wash late one night, by way of explanation. I told her in the future if she wants to help me out in that way the best way would be to give me the money or a gift card to whatever store and then I can shop in peace. Now THAT would be a truly appreciated gesture. But that will never happen, because that would be a selfless gift without any real gratification for her and my mom buying me underwear was for her, not for me, so that SHE could have the control and the fun of doing it. oh and I gave them all back to her to take back to the store. I just can't stomach the idea of my dad being involved in something so intimate, and then being intimate in the future with my SO....ewwwww.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

If your mom lived several states away, or didn't have the extra room for you guys, or wasn't willing to house you, or just *poof* disappeared, what would your next plan be? 'Cause I think that if I were you I would condition myself to not view her house as an option. If she wasn't there providing a place for you, you'd figure something else out -- what would that something else be?


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

I'm sure if that were the case SO and I would have continued to live together rather than us be on the street. He was against it at first and he does miss the kids but he says its important to him as it is to me for us to try and get a fresh start the "right" way (and I don't mean that in a judgemental way since I know marriage is not important to everyone).

He just got hired yesterday, and started today, at a new electrical job during the day. He is hoping it becomes full time soon so that he can quit his other job at night...there is no way he can realistically work 11-6 at one job and 8-6 at the other job 5-6 days a week. But the money will help us to move a little faster.

The only thing is that he doesn't feel like he should have to pay for my divorce. I kind of understand where he is coming from. He has already paid for ds' preschool on top of the regular expenses, and he wasn't really that gung ho about preschool but went along with it since he generally defers to me about the kids' needs. I had promised to pay for preschool and the car payment while he handled the rest but then I was short several times so he picked up my slack. So he feels that he shouldn't have to pay the $250 for my divorce on top of everything else. my mom said "if he wanted you that bad he would pay for it." and I see her point too but geez how much can you expect from one person with a minimum wage-ish job? he already had to drop his classes because school cut into his ability to work and generate income.

so...it's on me to come up with the $250 on top of my other bills, while not leaving my dc in childcare (because I can't afford anyone other than my mom, and I can't leave them with my mom very much), and on top of already working one job.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

honestly I agree with your mom here. He is going to be your husband. He needs to accept you and your debt and baggage and all of it. $250 is just not that much money to share with your wife. No he should not have to pay for your divorce. It should have been done a long time ago etc etc but this is the reality of the situation. If he wants to marry you and such he needs to help in whatever way he can to move that along and in your situation and at this time that means he needs to just cough it up and get it done. Also have you checked into child care assistance through the state? It sounds like you just need to plan on getting a job. And I agree your mom is not the person to be watching them. 3 to six months is all it would take to dig yourself out.


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