# I'm pretty torn on circumcision (please don't delete this!)



## ryleeee (Feb 9, 2005)

Up until about 20 minutes ago I was all for circumcising my boy (if we have one) but...I've been reading and I'm feeling pretty nauseous about the whole thing. Now I don't want to get everyone all riled up and yelling at me, because I KNOW this is a really touchy subject here. But I'd like to make a really informed decision. Can somebody tell me medical reasons as to why people have their boys circumcised? What are the benefits/etc...please don't be biased, I'm trying not to be. I'm not trying to offend anyone either. I just want my husband and I to make the right choice for us and our baby.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

You've come to the right place. I am the mother of two intact sons. I chose that route because it made me ill to think that a part of there body would be removed for vanity reasons.

The mamas and dads here have great info.

Congrats on your upcoming arrivial!


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## ryleeee (Feb 9, 2005)

Is it completely a vanity thing? Because if it is then there's no way I'd do that to my kid. But I've heard that there are medical reasons...?? Like later on in life stuff could happen...


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

I don't have alot of specific info. I am not good at quoting sources and such.

When I was researching it 5 years ago, I came up with NO good evidence that I should circumcise my son.

The US has one of the highest circumcision rates, if not the highest. A friend of mine form England thinks we are nuts! I don't think he personally knows anyone who is cut over there.

Others can give you much better info. I am so glad that you are open minded to the option of not circumcising. It is a painful event for babies. They need our protection.

My opinion is that later in life my sons can always chose to get it done if they would like. But the can never go back and replace their foreskin if I had chose to have it removed. It is their body. They should have that choice, not me.


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

Some people think its cleaner or easier to take care of. The only care a penis requires as an infant is to be wiped off, as they grow older and the foreskin detaches (at birth its attached like a fingernail to the nailbed) they can pull it back and wash in the shower. Nothing really extraordinary needs to be done.

Some also think it protects against disease. Those studies have not been proven though, in fact many have been disproven.

I think what you need to consider is that circumcision hurts your infant horribly. They may not remember it directly but it has to affect their development.
It has no benefits that have been substaniated.

So why would you do it?

Is it worth a surgery to make your child have a penis that looks similar to his father's? What about their nose, something they will certainly see a lot more often than each other's penises?


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## Nathan1097 (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ryleeee*
Is it completely a vanity thing? Because if it is then there's no way I'd do that to my kid. But I've heard that there are medical reasons...?? Like later on in life stuff could happen...

Take a look at the link in my signature. It talks about the major medical reasons given and why they have been debunked. Also look at "like father like son".


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

There are no proven medical benefits. Period. That is why no major medical organization in the world recommends routine infant circumcision. Not the American Academy of Pediatrics, not the American Medical Association, not the American Cancer Society, nobody. In fact, many medical organizations in other advanced nations such as Australia recommend against circumcision.

In European countries, where circumcision is virtually unknown, only a handful out of hundreds of thousands of intact men will end up needing circumcision for medical reasons.

Circumcising your son as a baby to prevent the miniscule chance that he might develop a problem later on that would require circumcision as an adult would be like cutting off your baby daughter's breasts on the chance she might develop breast cancer as an adult. Except your daughter is FAR FAR more likely to develop breast cancer than your son is to have a problem with his foreskin.

You can access medical papers, information, etc. as well as information on the function of the foreskin at www.cirp.org and http://research.cirp.org

You can also read about the history of circumcision in this country - the only country in the world that currently circumcises routinely for non-religious reasons. Routine infant circ was started in the 19th century as a way to stop masturbation, cure epilepsy (seriously!), etc. It has been a procedure in search of a reason ever since. All sorts of "medical" reasons have been advanced for circumcision - preventing epilepsy, tuberculosis, syphilis, other STDs, cervical cancer - and every single one of them has been proven false.

I think you will find the more you research, the more circumcision makes no sense at all! Any more than cutting off your daughter's clitoris and labia would make sense for medical reasons.

Good luck with your research!


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## Kerri-Jean (Mar 15, 2004)

Hi Ryleee,

I'm also in Canada and it's already something like 50/50 here now, so things are certainly changing over time.

There have been medical claims that it reduces risks of certain diseases of the penis, but they've all been disproved. So once I learned about that, it just didn't make sense to do something permanent to my baby boys. I don't feel like I own my kids, you know? I've been entrusted with them until they are independant.

I know this sounds like we're all anti-circ, because we mainly are, but it's only because we have researched it ourselves. The Canadian Academy of Pediatrics doesn't endorse routine circumcision either. It's just that so many people think they should circumcize because everyone else does, and it doesn't seem a good enough reason. My son's penises wouldn't look like their Dad's anyway whether they were circed or not, you know? (I mean size, hair, etc., not to be gross!)

Kerri


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Here's some good resources to get you started:

Dr. Sears, on circumcision: http://askdrsears.com/html/1/t012000.asp

Mothering Magazine, "The Case Against Circumcision": http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...cumcision.html

Garry Harryman's "Lost List": http://www.norm.org/lost.html

Men's Health article, "Separated at Birth": http://www.noharmm.org/separated.htm

Vincent Black's, "Vulnerability of Men": http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

VIDEOS:

http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/circvid9.rm

http://www.intact.ca/vidintro.htm

http://www.cirp.org/library/procedure/plastibell/

AUDIO only: http://www.cirp.org/library/procedur...ibell/circ.wav

HTHs!

The most important thing to remember that NO (not one) medical organization in the world recommends routine infant circumcision as a preventative health measure...it's completely elective, and done for cosmetic/cultural/religious reasons---not medical ones.

There is no reason to put your son through it.

Jen


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

I remember when I was pg with ds and I assumed we would circ him b/c everyone else does.







Then I read about it on BBS and it was difficult to figure out all the arguments pro and con, esp. the medical data. The problem with reading studies, is even if you find one that is up to date, you don't know if it is a good study (did it control for confounding factors, etc.) I quickly read about the functions of the foreskin, which are really important, and that was easy to understand. Check out the 2nd link in my sig to read about that. That was the easy part. What was confusing was all the arguing whether circumcising prevented UTIs or cancer. I kept trying to find more accurate statistics, and it was tiring. Then, I had 2 thoughts - first, the rest of the world does not circumcise to prevent cancer, so that can't be it, and second, I have had plenty of UTIs, and they weren't from lack of hygiene, and I just took antibiotics and they went away. No need to circumcise me! Once I put it together it was obvious and we didn't circ ds. I am very happy with our decision. It was confirmed when we actually had him and changed his diapers - you just wipe the penis like a finger and all done! Circ'ed boys you have to clean the scar area very carefully and put vaseline on it for a year and check for adhesions (scar tissue) and it makes them cry when they pee. Plus if you see a normal (int act) penis the head is all red and moist and soft and it seems unnatural to expose it.

HTH


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

While dh and I were in the hospital still struggling over circ...I had done thorough research on everything but







...the doctor came in on the tail end of our conversation and said, "I just want you to know that circ. is purely cosmetic". Although, I have tons of other reasons now, that was enough for me then.







Thank God our little one is still intact. "When you know better, you do better."


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## poppyqwn (Jan 5, 2005)

Good for you for wanting to do the best for your son. I wished that I had done the research 3 little boys ago. I posted a while back (where do we go from here?) about my middle sons botched circ. I didn't have strong feelings about circ until I did the research later. My little middle has suffered because of my indiffernce. The complications of it will have to be surgericlly corrected. I am not telling you what to do by any means. I have three circ'd boys, and at the time I thought I was doing the right thing. I am just saying read EVERYTHING you can. Do this in enough time that you can consider all the evidence before the birth of your son. Please realize that the risks of complications are very very real. I never thought I would send off a perfect little boy and then get him back with a problem. Everything I have read since studing the subject has not compelled me to believe that there is a good medical reason to circ a baby. I don't have any good links, but the ladies here have posted some great ones! Good luck to you.


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

Hi from Scandinavia.

Yes, North America is the only place in the world where non-religious circumcision is done. Here it is totally unknown and I, as so many Europians, was absolutely horrified when I lived a year in USA and learned what was done to little boys. Since I come from 100% intact culture, the health reasons sounded so ridiculous. Here, men actually needing circumcision for health reasons is LESS than 0.006%.

If you are interested in knowing why circumcision started in USA, read this, In the Physicians' Own Words;

http://www.noharmm.org/docswords.htm

A word of a warning though if you decide to leave your son intact, the medical community in USA is unfortenately very uneducated about the proper care of intact, normal penis.

Please read this thread ... "A Warning For Parents of Intact Sons"

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=129378


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## feebeeglee (Nov 30, 2002)

There are no medical benefits.

It is purely cosmetic.

I was pretty shocked when I researched it myself five years ago, because surely there must be some very compelling reason to do that to a newborn, but no, it's completely irrational.

The link in my signature is a very nice non-threatening introduction to the absurdity of circumcision. I'm so glad you've asked about it!


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:



Originally Posted by *ryleeee*

I'm Pretty torn on circumcision (Please don't delete this)


You don't have to worry about that. It is obvious you are concerned for your son and are here for information. We are probably going to give you more of that than you can handle.

Quote:



Up until about 20 minutes ago I was all for circumcising my boy (if we have one) but...I've been reading and I'm feeling pretty nauseous about the whole thing.


Once you understand what circumcision is all about, that's a typical reaction.

Quote:



Now I don't want to get everyone all riled up and yelling at me, because I KNOW this is a really touchy subject here. But I'd like to make a really informed decision.


And that's exactly what we want you to do and I can promise you, no one here is going to yell at you.

Quote:



Can somebody tell me medical reasons as to why people have their boys circumcised? What are the benefits/etc...


There is only one medical benefit of circumcision. That is to the bank account of the medical professional who does the procedure.

The American Academy of Pediatrics assembled a Taskforce on Circumcision about 35 years ago to investigate circumcision. At their latest meeting in the early 1990's, they studied 671 research projects on circumcision looking for benefits and they did not find even one conclusive benefit from circumcision. However, they did find substantial and documented risks and those risks can be severe all of the way up to and including death.

Quote:



please don't be biased, I'm trying not to be. I'm not trying to offend anyone either. I just want my husband and I to make the right choice for us and our baby.


To be quite honest, we are going to be a little bit biased. Many of us here have done a substantial amount of research into this issue and we have a pretty thorough understanding of it. Personally, I have read hundreds of research projects and visited thousands of websites fleshing out information and as most here will tell you, the more you learn, the worse circumcision looks. Under those circumstances, it is hard to not be biased. I am also biased against female circumcision. (Would you believe it was once practiced here in North America?)

Quote:



Is it completely a vanity thing? Because if it is then there's no way I'd do that to my kid.


Actually, I think the only time vanity comes into it is when a father wants his son's penis to look like his and he is circumcised. The only benefit is to the father and none to the son. I just don't think that is right.

Quote:



But I've heard that there are medical reasons...?? Like later on in life stuff could happen...


Well, possibly. Let me give you a run down. There is a possibility of an infection, most likely a staph or yeast infection. The chances? Probably in the range of 1%-2% which is lower than the risk of infection for a girl. The cure? Usually an antibiotic cream that will clear up the symptoms in 2-3 days. Not so bad, Huh? It's the same treatment a daughter would get if she got the same infection.

There is also something called lichen sclerosis that is very rare. In all of the time I have been doing this, I've only seen one possible case that was cleared up quickly and easily. However, there are reports of this infection in Scandinavia that have required a circumcision. The chances of this happening? Less than 1 in 18,000. Odds like that are why I don't play the lottery.

There is also something called "phimosis" that is very rare but often falsely diagnosed. Chances of this are in the range of 1 in 18,000. Generally, it is treated with circumcision but there are less intrusive and severe alternatives. There are also some cases of phimosis caused by diabetes in men generally older than 60 years old. The risk of this is a fraction of 1%.

Finally, there is the risk of penile cancer. This is something that gets way, way too much press space. It is incredibly rare. To give you an idea of how rare it is, imagine a city of 50,000 people where all of the men are intact. In a city like that, you could expect one case of penile cancer every 156 years. While there are a lot of assertions that penile cancer is more prevalent in intact men, there is just as much evidence that there is no difference whether the man is circumcised or intact. Personally, I have only heard of one case of penile cancer in real life and the cancer was on the circumcision scar. Kinda knocks that one in the head, Huh?

Actually, penile cancer is just a skin cancer just like the ones you see on people's faces and arms. They go to the doctor's office and they are removed in a very simple procedure. The patient leaves with a Band-Aid over the site and that's the end of it. However, just like that skin cancer, if penile cancer is ignored for years, it can kill you. There is no excuse for any man dying of penile cancer. It's too simple to cure.

Now, let's look at the flip side. Meatal Stenosis is an affliction exclusively of circumcised boys. It just doesn't affect intact boys at all. Meatal Stenosis is when the urinary opening becomes inflamed and then heals over. It can be an emergency situation that has to be handled RIGHT NOW! Although rare, it can result in kidney failure. The exact incidence of meatal Stenosis is unknown but is at least 9% and perhaps as high as 31%. The only cure is SURGERY. Not what you want for your son, is it?

There is also the possibility of adhesions. These have become quite common because the way circumcisions are done has changed over the past few years. Previously, so much skin was removed from baby boys that when they grew up, they suffered from painful erections and worse. Occasionally, so much was removed that skin had to be moved from another part of the body to recover the denuded penis. We have had one case of that happening here. The bad thing is that the skin on the penile shaft is only similar to the skin on the eye lid and no one is going to cut off an eyelid to replace skin on the penis. The donor skin is usually taken from the hip, back, thigh or similar area. This skin looks and acts very different from penile skin and the cosmetic results of this skin graft surgery is usually very poor and it leaves a large scar at the donor site as well.

To avoid all of this, doctors have changed to "loose circumcisions" which often leave the child looking as if no circumcision was done at all which leaves the question of "Well then, why do it at all?" These loose circumcisions are very prone to adhesions and are very difficult to prevent.

The worst complication is one that has had a profound effect in Alberta. In August 2003, Ryliegh McWillis was circumcised in Vancouver and died a few days later. Canada's and Alberta's circumcision rate was already low but as a result, it dropped an additional 40% in 2003 and a similar drop is expected for 2004 when the figures are tabulated. Less than 1 in 10 of your son's school mates will be circumcised, so that knocks out any concerns about the "locker room." As a matter of fact, if you do circumcise your son, he will be the "odd man out" among his peers. I also suspect you will find it hard to find a doctor willing to circumcise your son as the CPS has issued some very stern warnings to it's member doctors against providing circumcisions and the vast majority have heeded that warning and will not do circumcisions any more.

These are just the questions you have asked. You may also want to know about the pain involved in the procedure and the post-op recovery time, the human and civil rights issues, the sexual effect of circumcision and many other areas of concern. Ask questions and we will be glad to answer. You may also want to check out the sticky at the top of the forum titled "Web Resources." There is a wealth of information there from reliable sources.

Frank


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Good for you for doing your research.







So many parents don't, and just do 'what everyone else does'.

It's hard to follow Franks' post - he pretty much covers everything! But you've heard from Scandinavia - I thought I'd let you hear from the UK.

I'm American, but live in the UK. My husband is British and intact. We've been married for 10+ years, and during that time, he's had one yeast infection, which was cleared up in a few days - he just put some Canesten cream on it, and that was that.

I did (awhile back) ask him if he wishes he'd been circumcised at birth to prevent that one infection and him having to use Canesten cream for a week. His response was, 'Hell, no!'.

In the UK, they used to circumcise 50+ years ago. When the National Health Service came in (and suddenly the government was paying for health care), they took a good long look at circumcision and stopped providing it, because it simply causes more problems than it prevents (and the problems it might prevent - like an infection of the foreskin, since you can't get an infection in a body part you don't have! - are trivial).

Now, whenever I tell anyone that Americans (and some Canadians) routinely circumcise their little boys, everyone (without exception) is horrified. People react in exactly the same way that we react to female circumcision in Africa...the principle of the two is the same.

If it isn't OK to genitally modify little girls, why is it OK to genitally modify little boys? Something to think about...

Must run, as we need to leave in about 5 minutes...there is a link floating around about a study that was done showing that circumcision is not cost-effective medically (i.e., in causes more medical problems than it prevents).

Good luck with your research - lots of good links!


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## siddie (Jan 15, 2003)

The foreskin is there for a reason see http://www.cirp.org/library/sex_function/.

It has immunological functions that are provided by a special type of cell that is in the foreskin. The tip of the penis is a mucosal type skin and it is intended to be covered - think of eyelids for eyes or the type of skin on the inside of your mouth. It also is important for sexual functioning, uncircumcised men have greater sensitivity and better sex lives.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Plain and simple.... there is NO medical reason to circumsize a baby. NONE. It's a purely cosmetic surgical procedure. (as said by my pediatrician)


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## laidbackmomto2 (Apr 5, 2002)

Hi Ryleee,

Here's a link to information from the Canadian Pediatric Society on circumcision:

http://www.caringforkids.cps.ca/babies/Circumcision.htm

The rates in Canada vary from Province to Province, but overall, the rate is ~17%, not 50/50 as previously stated. Here are some links on Canadian stats:

http://www.courtchallenge.com/refs/yr99p-e.html
http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/Canada/

Here is an extremely telling memo from the Registrar of the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Saskatchewan to its members. It's a must read to understand the current Canadian medical thinking on this issue:

http://www.intact.ca/saskmemo.html

Hope this helps!

Cindy

Lindsey (96/02/26)
Jason (00/06/08)


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

You've gotten a lot of good information so far. You can also read _What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Circumcision_ by Dr. Paul Fleiss.

Also, you may want to read through this (long) thread of mothers who regret circumcising their sons:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=112410

It does take a paradigm shift to go from "yes, I'll circumcise" to "no way in **** would I ever circumcise!" But once you make that shift, you can't believe you ever considered it in the first place.

PS. Both my pediatrician and Obstetrician (at the time I had my son) told me that there are NO medical reasons to circ. But, both of them offered to circumcise my son, anyway. Go figure. Must be the $$$$. (I told them both NO!!!!!)


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## lizzie (Dec 5, 2001)

I can't add much if anything after all the pp's, but I'm just glad you're here with an open mind...

I was pg with my ds when I found out how pointless circ'ing is. I am SO happy I found out in time to save my little man from that useless pain.

And, just in case a previous link doesn't mention it, circ'ing has also been linked to breastfeeding difficulties for the traumatized baby boys, if you're considering bf.

Way to advocate for your boy before you can even hold him in your arms!









lizzie


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Here is another link to a thread you might find interesting/helpful:

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...42#post2667142

This is advice to a mom who doesn't want to circumcise, but her dh does - so she is asking for ways to approach the issue with him. Post #19, from e&r would be very relevant to your situation, though, since you are in Canada and the circ rate there is only 17%.

E&R is a teacher, and teaches small children. She gives her experiences of over-hearing conversations between small boys, some of whom are circed and some of whom aren't. Reading it made my heart break for those circed little boys.









Since you are in Canada, where the circ rate is even lower than in Washington state, this scenario could well be in your son's future.

Here is the link to the study showing that circumcision is not cost-effective medically:
http://www.prweb.com/prfiles/2004/1..._-_Van_Howe.pdf


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## Nathan1097 (Nov 20, 2001)

That link didn't work- the vanhowe one. It just showed the main page of that site.


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## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

Hi ryleeee, good for you for researching this important decision. So many people spend more time on picking out a name for their baby than deciding whether or not to put him through surgery after he is born.

IMO, infant circumcision is purely cosmetic. Meaning that parents usually do it so their kid "matches" Daddy or friends. My hubby is circed but our boys are not. There is absolutely no problem there and we don't anticipate there to be a problem in the future. As far as being like his friends, Alberta has a circumcision rate of only 20% so if you do it, you will in fact be putting him into the minority.

I live in Ontario and the rates here have drastically dropped since my dh was born. Just by that alone it only makes sense not to circumcise. I figure that if it was such a great idea that more and more people would be doing it, not less and less.

Anyhoo, here is a link to some great info that I found while expecting my first and some more since then,
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=207626

I hope you find what you are looking for.

Take care,
Tara


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## feebeeglee (Nov 30, 2002)

The Van Howe links are here, too:

http://blog.gleeson.us/phoebe/2005/0...fective_surger


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Feebeeglee - thanks for fixing that link. I just copied it from Frank's post, where he originally gave it, so I'm not sure why my link didn't work...









Thanks again!


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## oliviagoddess (Jan 10, 2003)

There are two medical reasons (one really, but read on) to get cut, albeit, you won't know until the boys are much older.

Marie Antoinette's husband Louis (14?) had a problem where his foresckin never separated from his penis. He could not perform sexually and had to have the problem resolved with a medical circumsision when he was like 25.

The other reason is if the man had persisten, major yeast infections and can't keep himself clean (probably the reason it started in the desert 5,000 years ago). This can be avoided with proper hygene (retract, wash with soap and make sure you retract when drying) and a diet that reduces yeast, so this is not really a reason.

Keep in mind that the 1st reason is VERY rare and that the complications from circumsision are MANY!!!

If you never heard his story David Reimer, who's penis was burned off in a horrible circ tool accident was raised as a girl until he found out the truth. Unfortunately he commited suicide 5/12/2004 at 38 after a lifetime of tourture.

http://www.electricvenom.com/index.php?p=6276

Quote:

The baby was strapped spread-eagle to a plastic board on a counter top, his body covered with a surgical drape with a hole in it to expose his little penis. The baby struggled against restraints that bound his arms and legs, pulling one arm and then the other. When the doctor pinched the foreskin with two forceps, the baby let out a piercing scream, which intensified when the doctor inserted an instrument between the foreskin and glans (head of the penis), tearing the two structures apart. (They are normally attached to each other during infancy and childhood to protect the glans.)

The baby started shaking his head back and forth -- the only part of his body free to move -- as the doctor used another clamp to crush and then cut the foreskin lengthwise. This allowed insertion of the circumcision device, meant to protect the glans, as the foreskin is clamped and crushed against it and then amputated. The baby gasped and choked, no longer able to scream.

As I watched in horror and disbelief, I began to cry. The doctor looked at me and said, "There is no medical reason for doing this." I couldn't believe that medical professionals, dedicated to helping and healing could inflict such pain and anguish on an innocent newborn baby unnecessarily.
Basically, men are "outies" and women are "innies" (we are all female until like week 10 until the hormones make the buds go in or out), would you want someone to have removed your clitoris / hood just so you could be protected against something that may not even happen?

First, do no harm

There is no absolute medical indication for routine circumcision of the newborn

Circumcision of the male child cannot be considered an essential component
of adequate total health care

Sadly, there have even been instances when a child was circumcised
without the parents' wishes or consent (in labor I told EVERYONE I came into contact with at the hospital that under no circumstances was my son to be cut)

The fact is that circumcision confers no immunity to any of these diseases; thousands of men with AIDS...are testimony to the failure of circumcision
to offer any degree of immunity to AIDS infections

No one seriously advocates removing the breasts of female infants
to prevent this more common malignancy of breast cancer

Circumcision must be recognized as an equally serious mutilation of men
with equally insubstantial justification for continuing the practice...Most often a poor surgical result is not recognized until years after the event

On balance, circumcision is an unjustifiable preventive for penile cancer
with an unacceptable number of serious complications

The adverse long term consequences of infant circumcision
on the sexual health of American men must be recognized
by physicians, parents, and legislators


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## JoKats68 (Feb 15, 2005)

HI I'm new here, and I'm currently pregnant with a boy. I have done Months of research on circumcision, and have decided Not to circumcise my son. As I could not find any medical reason for it. I have discovered its clearly cosmetic. Also my husband is not circumcised and has Never had any problems at all. So my son will stay intact.
I hope I can get to know all of you. I currently have a cerclage in, and I will have it pulled March 8th, so my little bundle will arrive anytime after that.
Jo


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## Damien (Oct 13, 2004)

If you circumcize boys then why not girls too? They don't need that extra flap of skin...

I've mentioned that they _do_ circumcise women in many parts of the world to many women and most quickly start questioning their prior convictions. Its alright to do it to boys, but not girls... _right_

Of course I grew up in a country (Ireland) where almost nobody in the country is circumcised... we have water and soap, end of problem









Damien


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## LadyWulf (Aug 11, 2004)

I can't add much that the pps haven't said already...other than my own experience.

My son was circed when he was 2 days old. To make a VERY long story short it is a pain to take care of. I have to wash it at least 3 times a day (he is over 1yo now). It was also done too tight and will probably have to be corrected at a later date.

There is no medical reason to circ your son. PERIOD!! There are MANY medical reasons to NOT circ your son though.


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## oliviagoddess (Jan 10, 2003)

I'm sure that someone has mentioned this in a post but last night it came to me...

If you cut the penis it loses function and then when they are in their 30's they start loosing sensation and control. I think we have created a disease in men Erectile Disfunction. My mom always told me that American men were bad in bed because they are cut. We are european so no man in my family has ever been. Makes sense as to why Viagra is so popular in US and just a "toy" drug in Europe.

The Durex Global Sex Survey says the world average is 103 times per year. While the US is still above average (111) it pales to Greece (133) and France (137). In fact, except for South Africa (114) there is no other country that routinely cuts boys (and I'm not all that certain how common it is in S. Africa).

The average time spent on foreplay worldwide is 19.7 minutes and the US is average, while Uk (22.5), Germany (22.2), Irish (21.8) and Spain (21.7) lead off. Again, it seems that the US laggs in forplay, possibly because of male loss of control, you wouldn't want to spend a whole lot of time on the wind up if it makes you pitch before you get to the mound (to use a baseball euphanism).

You can read the report here:
http://www.durex.com/cm/GSS2004Resul...?intMenuOpen=9


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## achintyasamma (Aug 4, 2004)

My husband was circumcised in childhood for medical reasons. He was around 10 and doesn't remember exactly why it was done, but thinks it had to do with an outgrowth of skin if it makes any sense. The surgery was performed under general anesthesia and he remembers being quite sore and itchy afterwards, but not being able to touch his penis. This experience did not make him wish he had been circumcised as an infant. It makes him empathize with the babies who have this done with little or no anesthesia or pain medication at an age when they cannot even understand what is happening to them. He was old enough to understand what was happening and had anesthesia, post-op pain meds, and the ability to verbally express his pain. Although our son will not look like his father, we know we will be able to explain to our son why we chose not to do this to him.


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oliviagoddess*
If you cut the penis it loses function and then when they are in their 30's they start loosing sensation and control. I think we have created a disease in men Erectile Disfunction.

Yep, I've come up with that same idea. I call it "The Sliding Board Effect." I believe that as we age, our sexual quotient declines like going down a sliding board until we get to the bottom which is erectile dysfunction in men. I believe that because of circumcision desensitizing the penis that circumcised men start further down the sliding board and get to the bottom at an earlier age. Edward O. Laumann, researcher at The University of Chicago found evidence of this in finding that circumcised men suffer impotency years before their intact peers.

Quote:

My mom always told me that American men were bad in bed because they are cut.
Ever wonder why European men have such a reputation as great lovers and American men have a "Slam, bam, Thank you Ma'am" reputation?

Quote:

Makes sense as to why Viagra is so popular in US and just a "toy" drug in Europe.
Makes you wonder why The US consumes over half of all of the Viagra type products produced in the world (54%) and why Indonesian men (Muslim and circumcised) are the highest per capita users and why Isreal is the largest counterfieter of Viagra type products and why there is a counterfieting problem in all Muslim countries.

Quote:

The Durex Global Sex Survey says the world average is 103 times per year. While the US is still above average (111) it pales to Greece (133) and France (137). In fact, except for South Africa (114) there is no other country that routinely cuts boys (and I'm not all that certain how common it is in S. Africa).
In English speaking South Africa, it was quite common several decades ago as they took their culture from England and many adult white South African men are circumcised. Certain tribes of black South Africans have also traditionally circumcised.

Quote:

The average time spent on foreplay worldwide is 19.7 minutes and the US is average, while Uk (22.5), Germany (22.2), Irish (21.8) and Spain (21.7) lead off. Again, it seems that the US laggs in forplay, possibly because of male loss of control, you wouldn't want to spend a whole lot of time on the wind up if it makes you pitch before you get to the mound (to use a baseball euphanism).
I suspect that it is because circumcised men get far less sensory input from foreplay and are less satisfied by it so they have less interest in performing and receiving it. I really think the main motivation for foreplay among American men is to ready the partner for the Grand Finale' and is mostly something they do from necessity rather than from wanting it.

Frank


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *achintyasamma*
My husband was circumcised in childhood for medical reasons. He was around 10 and doesn't remember exactly why it was done, but thinks it had to do with an outgrowth of skin if it makes any sense.


From your description and his age, I suspect he was misdiagnosed with phimosis when he was really absolutely normal and there was no indication for the circumcision. This is still very common today. We have had many Moms come here after their doctor diagnosed phimosis and prescribed a "necessary" circumcision. As far as I know, none of these boys have been circumcised and all are happy and healthy.

Frank


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Gee, OliviaGoddess, what would you suggest cutting off a girl/woman with persistent yeast infections???









And you're wrong..........only plain water should be used to wash under the foreskin......soap can actually _irritate_ the area. Hopefully you don't wash your inner female parts with soap...ouch! Water alone does the trick, for men and women.

And of course, for men and women, cleaning "those parts" doesn't need to happen until puberty.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Our pediatrician told us that, unlike a womans' vagina, the mans' penis doesn't "grow bacteria" under the foreskin. So, there shouldn't be reason for infection...


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## oliviagoddess (Jan 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A*
Gee, OliviaGoddess, what would you suggest cutting off a girl/woman with persistent yeast infections???









No, but sometimes I did wish it would just go walk off by itself and be all itchy and yeasty without me. In my teen years I was just one big yeast infection walking around. Not until I was 25 did someone suggest it had something to do with diet.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A*
And you're wrong..........only plain water should be used to wash under the foreskin......soap can actually _irritate_ the area. Hopefully you don't wash your inner female parts with soap...ouch! Water alone does the trick, for men and women.

And of course, for men and women, cleaning "those parts" doesn't need to happen until puberty.

Ok, I was wrong on the soap part, but I was thinking of heavy sweaty conditions (like sports or working outside in 100 degree weather) where soap might be called for since there is the extra sweat and stink factor.


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## ryleeee (Feb 9, 2005)

thanks for all your replies, i'm still trying to wade through all the information!


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oliviagoddess*
Ok, I was wrong on the soap part, but I was thinking of heavy sweaty conditions (like sports or working outside in 100 degree weather) where soap might be called for since there is the extra sweat and stink factor.


Well, except that mucosal skin ( the inner foreskin and glans surface) has no sweat glands so there is no sweat or stink factor. Next!

Frank


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## Roland (Feb 16, 2005)

Hello ryleeee,

Here are some fine statements to keep in mind about this sick practice, this torture and sexual mutilation of the helpless healthy (who *never* consent to becoming victims damaged for the rest of their lives):

"I have never been able to accept the fact that someone cut part of my penis off when I was a baby. The sheer monstrousness of it haunts every waking moment of my life. Sometimes I think I'm beginning to make some sort of adjustment to it, but then I see an unmutilated man in a magazine or shower and I become overwhelmed by uncontrollable feelings of outrage and disbelief that I was made the victim for life of something so sick. Sometimes I feel I'm at the edge of madness and just can't handle it."

"My feelings about the doctor who circumcised me are too violent to describe."

"I was just a baby - I couldn't stop them."

"Butchers!"

"Butchered at Birth" [Printed on T-shirt on teenage boy on MTV, early March 1993]

"There's something very, very wrong and very frightening about a society that systematically tortures and mutilates babies."

"Why would anyone cut off part of a baby's penis? Why would anyone let himself or anyone else do it?"

"The worst thing about circumcision is that it produces circumcisers."

"Fear, pain, crippling, disfigurement, and humiliation are the classic ways to break the human spirit. Circumcision includes them all."

The above were collected by intactivist John A. Erickson. See his two tip-top websites:
www.foreskin.org
www.SexuallyMutilatedChild.org

I know how perverse and evil this practice is. At birth I (an atheist born to Catholics) was tortured and sexually mutilated by an old Jew, an MD who had been born in Russia in 1888. Due to the excessive degree of the sexual mutilation inflicted on me by that old Jew, I never had a normal sex life, not even during masturbation. This is why I do what I can to help end this atrocity and fraud.

Roland

~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Sharing the awareness that the human penis is designed correctly the way it normally comes into the world: with its foreskin intact; that a male's possession of his own penis - including his foreskin - is his inviolable birthright; and that a child's chances for health and happiness throughout his life are greater - by far - if he is allowed to keep all of the penis he is born with."

- John A. Erickson

First, be a good animal.

- Ralph Waldo Emerson
[A remark that fits well with circumcision. What animal - other than the human animal - mutilates the sex organs of its offspring?]

It may well be that a society's greatest madness seems normal to itself.

- Allan Bloom _The Closing of the American Mind_


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

Hi ryleee,

When my son was born 6 years ago, I had zero clue about the importance of the foreskin, or the fact that it's bonded to the glans, or the potential complications of circumcision -- I really did think a foreskin was just a little extra flap of skin. However, the AAP had recently released their statement that they did *not* recommend circumcision and it had no proven medical benefit, and I decided it wouldn't make sense to have a procedure done on my baby that would cause him pain if it didn't do him any good.

So you see, the fact that my son still has his foreskin is more luck than anything else -- I only wanted to spare him unneccessary discomfort. It wasn't till I came to Mothering & read in this forum that I knew what a monumental thing a foreskin was, and I broke down in tears with gratitude that I hadn't robbed him of it. I couldn't believe what a narrow escape he'd had. I knew that if I'd made a different choice back then I would've been crushed with regret for something I'd have no way to undo.

Your baby's so lucky, because he'll have the benefit of a mama who's *already* equipped with the information she needs to keep him safe. Me, I want to have another baby someday, and I kind of hope it's a boy so I can know from the moment he's born what a gift I'm giving him by leaving him intact and perfect.


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## Unoppressed MAMA Q (Jun 13, 2004)

i'm married to a man who is cut. if he were answering your thread, he would say something like 'i don't care that i'm circumcised,i don't know the difference'. our son is intact, it was never even something to discuss. then again, our baby was home-born, we would have had to do it ourselves(lame attempt at a joke).
anyway, i have never posted here before, and feel a little shady to write the following. if my husband starts down the stairs i'll close my browser.







:
i frequently mourn what was done to my partner. particularly if i hang out in this forum- so i often don't, (even though i'm really interested in intactivism). a flippant 'choice' made by my MIL 32 years ago is now harmful to our sex life.
i sometimes look at him and feel piteous for the baby that he was. this makes me feel like utter SHIT, in a way that i'm not eloquent enough to describe further.
i can't talk to him about this, so i just shut up. he says he's uninterested in restoration, so that's that. i am angry at him b/c i feel like he should be angry for what was done to him, even if he is at peace with it (does that make sense?). he merely says that he doesn't know any different, so why should he care? i believe that the surgery now impacts the quality of our sex life, thus our marriage, thus our lives.
i could go on and on, but i just wanted to say that *I*, a woman, who has genital integrity, who has a child of each sex with genital integrity, feels intimately, deeply harmed forever b/c of male infant genital mutilation.
i didn't read all the other responses, but wanted to add the wife's perspective. your son might have one someday.
and, congratulations!


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