# Feeling horrible



## allismom (Nov 28, 2004)

Hello.......I hate to introduce myself with this post, but here goes. DD is 2 1/2 and this morning was just awful for us. I was trying to get her ready to go to a swimming party. SHe had been acting up all morning and by 10:30 I was already at my wits end. I was trying to get her dressed and gave her the choice to come over to me and get dressed or I would do it anyway. She wouldn't come.........I brought her to the edge of the bed and tried getting her dressed (she was naked). She was kicking and yelling and I did something I DO NOT BELIEVE IN.

I spanked her little butt out of frustration. She cried - not sure if it hurt or just scared her, but it did get quite red.....probably since she didn't have a diaper on.

Oh ladies, I never wanted to spank her and now I have. I feel like a wife who has been unfaithful. When we both calmed down and she apologized to me I apologized to her for yelling and for hurting her hiney. I did not use the word hit because I don't want her thinking it is ok to hit.

I just feel sooooo soooooo terrible. Mostly becasue it got all red so I fear that I really did hurt her.

I don't ever want to do that again!!!!!!!!


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## mpeel (Nov 20, 2001)

People lose their tempers. Apologizing is great. There are several books that have helped me through the years. I was not raised in a gentle manner. It has been hard to change from what I learned. Here is a list of the books that have helped me the most:

Kids are Worth It
Love and Anger
Unconditional Parenting (phenomenal, biggest help)
Hold On To Your Kids
Non-Violent Communication

I would have handled it this way - "Samantha, it is time to get ready for the party this morning. What do you want to wear? Remember, it needs to be a swimsuit since it is a swimming party." "My blue one." "It is time to put in on. Do you want to do it yourself or do you need my help?" "Myself." "Ok." I watch as she struggles. If still in diapers, remind her to put that on first since it goes under the swimsuit. (Even cloth diapers are easy for little ones to put on. Just snap or velcro them like a pull up). Usually, she can't quite do and comes and asks for help. They need autonomy. And although you gave her a choice, neither involved doing it herself which is something little ones love and need. Also, either do this early so you are not late cause kids are slow, or accept that you are going to be late and let it go.


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## allismom (Nov 28, 2004)

Thanks for the encouragement and the suggestions. I do try many of those phrases you suggested and I did ask her if she wanted to put her own diaper on this morning......she was just not doing anything!

To make this guilt of mine that much worse.....tonight at bedtime she would not let us check her teeth.....I asked her if she wanted mommy to get angry like this morning and she said "no, I don't want you to smack my hiner"!!

WE HAVE NEVER EVER USED THAT PHRASE!!!!!! I don't know where she eve heard it! God I feel so awful!

I have definately learned to allow for more time now that she wants to do things for herself......so many of our fun activities with other groups start at 9:30 and we need to leave the house by 9 so the only way to allow more time would be to wake her earlier and I am not doing that!


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## Altair (May 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allismom*

To make this guilt of mine that much worse.....tonight at bedtime she would not let us check her teeth.....I asked her if she wanted mommy to get angry like this morning and she said "no, I don't want you to smack my hiner"!!


you prob realized this yourself, so i'm sorry in advance for beating a dead horse









the language you used there put the responsibility of how YOU feel on a 2 year old. it is not her responsibility to keep you from being angry, it's your job to keep you from being angry. the adult is the one that needs to keep his/her emotions in check, as a model to the child how to respond when there is a conflict of opinion. no one needs to be "angry" when a child isn't listening. there doesn't need to be anger as a part of normal childcare. easier said than done, of course!

when i'm reaching my boiling point, i force myself to repeat something in my head to calm myself down. i focus on taking the tension out of my body. my calm response shows that this isn't a battle of wills, we can find a solution respectfully.

if you realized this as you were writing it, or i'm misreading you, sorry, please ignore this post then!


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allismom*
To make this guilt of mine that much worse.....tonight at bedtime she would not let us check her teeth.....I asked her if she wanted mommy to get angry like this morning and she said "no, I don't want you to smack my hiner"!!

WE HAVE NEVER EVER USED THAT PHRASE!!!!!! I don't know where she eve heard it! God I feel so awful!


Huh? What do you mean you don't know where she heard it? Didn't you just say in your first post that you said that this morning?
And if you feel sooo bad about it- why are you threatening her just hours later!!!???


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## allismom (Nov 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmb123*
Huh? What do you mean you don't know where she heard it? Didn't you just say in your first post that you said that this morning?
And if you feel sooo bad about it- why are you threatening her just hours later!!!???

No, I didn't use that phrase....I apologized for "hurting her hiney"....I never used the words smack or spank









I was not threatening to spank her hours later! No way! I was asking if she 'wanted me to be angry'. She is sensitive and doesn't like it if I am angry so that is why I asked her that. It often makes her change her tune.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Shari-- you absolutely threatened to spank her again. You got angry in the morning and hit her. What should her toddler mind connect to your asking her if she wants you to get mad again? It's so not her job to keep you from getting angry, it's your job to control your anger at a toddler.

Because you have never used the phrase she uttered, doesn't mean she doesn't have full understanding that she was smacked.

She's only 2. I think your expectations are way way off.

I do understand that we all lose it at times, but you did threaten to hit her again on the same day you felt terrible about hitting her.

I agree with a pp who listed some good books. It's time to rethink what you're doing/saying.


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## mpeel (Nov 20, 2001)

:

A two year old remembers only you spanked her while angry. She is not an adult. Also, be thankful your child sleeps that late. My oldest was up at 4:30 a.m. every morning at that age. For good. Both of mine are up before 7 when they sleep in. Considering an earlier bedtime and earlier morning may save a lot of hurt feelings and fights. Or, if you can't get her up earlier, skip the morning outings.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allismom*
I never used the words smack or spank











Quote:


Originally Posted by *allismom*
I did not use the word hit because I don't want her thinking it is ok to hit.

I think you are underestimating her intellegence if you think omitting the words will make her not know she was hit. Not saying the words is not what will make her know its not ok to hit- NOT HITTING will.


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

Not to jump on you, 'cause I want to help, if I even can...

but:

Quote:

She is sensitive and doesn't like it if I am angry so that is why I asked her that. It often makes her change her tune.
is something I struggle with (from the grown child's POV). It was very "effective" when my parents used it, but it made me feel inordinately responsible for their feelings, too. I still feel that way about everyone I am close to (or even know)-- including my parents-- and I am 27.

It also meant that I ended up lying a lot when I had trouble in school (esp. Jr. High and HS)... I didn't want to upset them. It wasn't that I didn't want to get in trouble as much as it broke my heart (even at that age) to see that they were disappointed in me, questioned their fitness as parents, were sad, frustrated, etc.

Seriously. This is still a challenge for me, esp. in my marriage.

Perhaps it would be more productive to draw her attention to the problem, rather than your feelings (esp. since they may be exaggerated by your concerns about your parenting-- if an adult refused to cooperate with you, you'd be frustrated, but probably not really angry. And since you know toddlers naturally test their boundaries and don't do things with real malice, I expect that your strong feelings have more to do w/anxiety that she will turn into a brat, you don't know how to be a good mom, etc. Not the situation itself, FTMP).

IOW, "If we can't check your mouth, then XYZ happens. We need to do it, so let's sing a song about it..." and use distraction, etc. If it's a situation where being empathetic is of primary importance (don't hit because hitting hurts), then I think it makes more sense to talk about your feelings. Of course, very young kids can't truly grasp empathy (they lack the developmental tools) no matter how hard they try, but it gets easier.

But checking her teeth is not about empathy, primarily. And even if it were, true empathy would be tough for her to grasp at this age. So I'd hold off on that. What she's demonstrating, IMO, by stopping her behavior when you tell her it makes you feel bad is that your hurt feelings make her feel bad-- not that she *understands* how you feel.

YKWIM?

I.e., since she doesn't have a well-developed sense of empathy, your hurt feelings make her feel bad in much the same way that yelling or spanking makes her feel bad-- via shame.

Just my 2 cents, YMMV.


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## satsuma (Jul 6, 2005)

*allismom*, I think only mothers that are lucky enough to have very calm and intelligent children will not get angry and loose it. Hang in there!


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *satsuma*
*allismom*, I think only mothers that are lucky enough to have very calm and intelligent children will not get angry and loose it. Hang in there!

No child deserves to be hit and threated, no matter what their behavior.
Grown ups are responsible for thier own emotions. Children don't "make" us get angry, only we can. Getting angry is a choice.

I also don't think parenting is about "luck", I think it is a lot of hard work. Yes, we do all make mistakes, or have regrettable moments. My lack of sypathy in this thread comes from reading the posters second post, saying she threated her later that same day.


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## allismom (Nov 28, 2004)

Ok, everybody, I am going to restate some things.

First of all, I came to the Gentle Discipline board because that is what I believe in.....not for all of you (some of you) to think I am a spanker and terrible parent. I came here because I do NOT believe in spanking, but feel horrible because I did it in a frustrated state, which I immediately soothed her, apologized, and walked away to take my OWN time out. I omitted the words not because I thought she was unintelligent, but to not draw attention to the fact of what I did. Remember, I felt like shit about it.

I hoped to come here and hear that 'yes, sometimes we lose our cool', which I did hear from a few of you. Thank you very much. And I was hoping for some supportive suggestions of how to better handle......I did not come here to be jumped on. I have talked to DD and promised her mommy will never ever spank her again because we do not hit people or animals.

I appreciate the suggestions you have listed about giving choices, alternatives, turning things into a song, etc. My horrible actions came after trying ALL OF THOSE THINGS. I guess I was at my wits end. It got to a point where when I gave her a choice she would not even give me an answer.

I'll share a few more details of the conversation I had with her in the evening, which some of you interpret as a threat. She was acting up when it was time for bed and DH and I were both talking to her very calmly. I phrased my words, even though I now see they were a poor choice, in a very calm question. Kind of like "do you want mommy to check your teeth or daddy to check them? Would you like to hold the toothbrush and help us check them?" "We can check them just like the dentist does in your book".....after trying those techniques and getting nowhere.....I said CALMLY "honey, mommy gets frustrated when you run from us when we ask you to do something, do you want mommy to get angry?"

Granted it still wasn't the best choice of words, but it is NOT like I was screaming in a threatening way "do you want mommy to get angry?". There is a difference.

I am doing my best with this but we are really into the terrible twos and her exploring her independence and which buttons she can push with me. I came here for support, not to be jumped on. I have very little time to read books, but I try my hardest to be educated on the right and moral techniques. One book that I did read stated to always start sentences (in these situations) with "I feel" phrases instead of placing blame on the child ........for instance

Instead of "You were naughty to kick mommy"....which places a negative on the child as a person......you should say "IT HURTS ME when you kick me" placing the feeling on MYSELF. I guess that is where I got the "It makes mommy angry when you......" Phrase.

Yes, I am responsible for my emotions...which is why I owned up to my failure, talked to her about it and came here for support. Yet I feel pretty much jumped on here.

mmaramba, thanks for the different point of view on the effect my words can have. I too, often feel responsible for others feelings, or for keeping the harmony in our extended family......I'll keep in mind what you said.

mpeel -- She doesn't sleep late. Her sleeping "in" is also no later than 7am. But she likes to play a bit, dawdle through breakfast, and then I need to get a shower....easily eats up 2 hours when trying to get out of the house by 9am. To skip the morning outings completely would be her missing out on her little friends or a morning outing at all.....we need to be home by 12:30 for naps. DH and I would LOVE an earlier bedtime....we've been battling with bedtime since the first day she was born









Well, some of these responses have made me feel even worse than I already did feel. If anybody has any more SUPPORT for me or suggestions, I'll be glad to take them. I made it clear in my OP that I did not believe in spanking and that this was not normal behavior on MY part. I hope I haven't been judged that I can never again come here for support because Gentle Discipline is truly something I believe in and need to learn more about to get us through this time in our lives.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Shari, hon, please don't feel too bad.

I believe that many posters were trying to simply convey their message, treating you like an adult you are.

Though, I know for myself - when I am an emotional wreck, I don't think I respond well when others treat me that way







: All I want is a hug and a promise that "everything will be better"









I say just like kids in a heat of the moment may not recieve the message we are trying to convey, adults too deserve a little gentleness.

The whole GD concept makes total sense to me and STILL I find myself slipping into not-so-GD ways. Usually when I am frustrated









Life-long conditioning plays it's role and until I read and re-read (and am still re-reading) some books and posts - I could not for the life of me realize that some of the things I did where not as good as I thought they were...

I am sure that when you come back to this post, let's say in a couple of weeks, you will feel differently about things said here. Even though some of the lines and suggestions said "you", I am sure in many case it was a general "you" and not *you* as a person.

You are great mama for trying to figure this out, and you will !

Hugs to you and your little girl.


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## allismom (Nov 28, 2004)

THank you soooooo much, Irina (beautiful name, btw!). Your response brought tears to my eyes......I am still upset, plus what you said is so nice...hmmmmmm maybe TTC worked if I am this emotional!


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Okay I don't mean any of this as harsh, so I hope it's helpful. You hit your toddler hard enough to turn her skin red. You feel bad. Okay, that makes sense. When you do something wrong and bad you should feel bad. It is wrong and bad to hit someone.

You believe that, but want someone to say "we all lose our cool sometimes."

Getting to the swimming party was more important to you protecting your child.

Nothing is more important than healing that between you. Not "acting up" before bed, not "checking her teeth", not getting to a swimming party.

You "lost your cool" and it's a really big deal.

There are other clues in your writing that you may want to re-vamp the way you think about your relationship with your child.

You say:
"DH and I would LOVE an earlier bedtime....we've been battling with bedtime since the first day she was born"

If you perceive yourself to have been battling with a newborn regarding bedtime, your information on children's normal development is off.

The books that have most helped me in my thinking about my relationships with my children are:

Playful Parenting by Lawrence Cohen
Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn
Raising Resilient Children (can't remember the author)

My best to you and your family in healing from this pain.


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## allismom (Nov 28, 2004)

"You say:
"DH and I would LOVE an earlier bedtime....we've been battling with bedtime since the first day she was born"

If you perceive yourself to have been battling with a newborn regarding bedtime, your information on children's normal development is off."

NOT BATTLING in the truest sense of the word. DD has never wanted to sleep since day #1. Didn't nap for hours like newborns. Doesn't go to sleep on her own. Has never slept through the night.

We've desired an earlier bedtime, but accept and are happy with a smooth, quiet going to sleep ritual. Prefer it not to take hours, but that's another story.

We've read books and tried various gentle techniques. She is not a sleeper. Never has been and will sleep when she is ready.....I was simply saying that to point out that we have no control over getting her to sleep earlier! We've tried! Doesn't work!


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## MamaE (May 1, 2004)

*No one* is perfect. And, I think all of us GD mamas should remember that it's just as important for us to GD each other as it is to GD our kids. It makes me sad when I don't see us GD'g each other here.









No one here condones spanking, so I think it was very big of you to come and ask for help. I wish I had more to add, but I am like Irina, I have to read and re-read those books (and then, for good measure, read them again)! Having patience is something I work on daily. Your own temperament, the way you were raised, your child's temperament, these all play a role. It's over-simplifying to say it's a lot of hard work. I think we all know that or we wouldn't be here - working at it!!!

The only constructive advice I can offer (this from the trenches of being a SAHM to a high-needs DD) is to dress your child the night before. I had heard of this before and sort of laughed. Then, when my DD (now 27 mos) entered the do-it-myself phase, I decided to try it. Now, we have one change of clothes each night (which I can playfully walk her through) and she wakes up dressed each morning.









There was a great thread here a month or so ago by yoopervegan. Something with 'anger' in the title. That thread is a goldmine of wonderful ideas for keeping your cool. I even typed some out for my own reference!

Hang in there and breathe, mama! What you focus on, you get more of. You aren't going to spank again, so focus on what you *want* - to be calm, cool, and collected. You aren't a bad mama, you're a mama who had a bad day. Put it behind you and now that you know better, you'll do better!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Hey there. I really just wanted to add another book recommendation. I have a 11 mo son, so I have no idea if I will ever "lose my cool" or not. I sincerely believe that I will never spank him, but I can just hope and try with all my might to never yell or anything like that.
Becoming The Parent You Want To Be by Laura Davis has a great discipline section for toddlers to age 5. It really offers a lot of insight as to WHY toddlers act the way they do. It helps with discipline if you understand the why's. It enables you to be more empathetic, even when you are not really happy with what your toddler is doing. kwim? It offers specific steps that allow you to respect the toddler, while trying to get her to behave in a way that is acceptable to both parent and toddler.

Becky
Keagan


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## allismom (Nov 28, 2004)

Thanks for all the books to look up!
We are leaving for the mountains tomorrow - I am going to try to get one of them to take along!
I also looked up that post and printed all the responses to take along and read!


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

If nothing you do makes her go to sleep, how can she be "acting up" at "bedtime?"

Newborns sleep a lot usually, but don't "nap for hours." They sleep in teeny chunks......

I do have a suggestion for you to try. For a couple of days say yes to anything she wants to do that could not actually injure her. Go where she wants to go when she wants to go. Sleep when she wants to sleep. Eat what she wants when she wants it.

If you feel like you can't do it for a couple of days, try it for a couple of hours.

See if you can't find a non-adversarial rhythm with her. Put yourself entirely on her side of any battle.

For me, living on my kids' time and on their side has been the most fun I've ever had.


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## mpeel (Nov 20, 2001)

It was very big and I imagine hard to say that you spanked your child. I have two high needs children and understand very well the sleep issue. Beth was nearly 6 years old before sleeping through the night. Samantha has just started at 5. It can make you tired, irritable, etc. I did want to mention that sleeping improved for both my girls when food intolerances were addressed and removed from their diet. Sensory issues also improved. Sensory issues compounded the sleeping issues.

I second the idea of sleeping dressed. It works wonders. You can lay out four or five weather appropriate outfits and she decides and puts on the one whe wants to wear. It is a wonderful addition to a goodnight ritual. It gives you a chance to discuss the next day's activities and can give them lots to think about while drifting off to sleep. It can also make for a lot of questions while trying to go to sleep too. That is not always great.

The best way I have found for shifting bed times is this: Everyone be ready for bed 15 minutes early and everyone go to bed in the dark 15 minutes early for a week or two. When that is down, move another 15 minutes earlier until you have the time wear you need it. But, the house has to be dark, no TV, no lights, no nothing. Everyone snuggle up together. The fewer the distractions the easier. Once the kids have bedtime down, you can get back up and do stuff. Then get back in bed with them later.


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## mpeel (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend*
See if you can't find a non-adversarial rhythm with her. Put yourself entirely on her side of any battle.

Alfie Kohn in UP talks a lot about how parenting should not be a "battle to win" with your children.


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## allismom (Nov 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend*
If nothing you do makes her go to sleep, how can she be "acting up" at "bedtime?"

I do have a suggestion for you to try. For a couple of days say yes to anything she wants to do that could not actually injure her. Go where she wants to go when she wants to go. Sleep when she wants to sleep. Eat what she wants when she wants it.


The acting up I was referring to was refusing to get jammies on, refusing to brush teeth, refusing to lay down AT bedtime. Not to turn this into a sleep thread......but DH needs his sleep as he gets up at 4am. Personally, I need a break at the end of being a SAHM for the past 14 hours. We both 'NEED' her to go to sleep, so we can both refresh and have any time as husband and wife.

I will give the 15 mins earlier for bedtime a try, with all of us cuddling....however, we've spent the last 6 months trying to get her to 'learn' to fall asleep on her own with us going in and checking on her periodically and laying with her for brief periods, so I am a bit reluctant for us all to lay down and cuddle again until she falls asleep (everything I read says them learning to fall asleep on own without relying on mom is the only way they'll learn to soothe themselves back to sleep during the night without mom).

As for saying "yes" to her ideas and on her timeframe for a few days.....I'll give it a try. We're going to the mountains this weekend so I can give it a try right away. I do find that when I use this technique our meltdowns are fewer and we are happier. From past experience though, once we return to a normal life of errands, mommy needing to cook dinner, etc. it starts all over. We have found this to be the case after every vacation when she's spent a week with mommy and daddy and undivided attention. I guess the key is finding the right balance.


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## Greensleeves (Aug 4, 2004)

Hi Alli,

I also have a spirited dd who didn't seem to like sleep from the start, and it is definitely a challenge that not everyone can understand and appreciate. I wanted to offer you some empathy about that, I know how frustrating it can be.

I wanted to point out a couple of things that I learned from that other thread on "anger" a pp mentioned.

First, sometimes we let outside pressures affect how we deal with our children. It seems like you are feeling pressured about getting out the door at a certain time, and about going to your activities. These create stress for you because you are thinking about what you _should_ do, what your daughter _should_ do. I know that feeling, you just want to get out the door, why won't she cooperate, you're doing this for her after all?! But if that stress is building to a point that you are angry and afraid you are going to lose it, ask yourself some questions. What is the consequence of being late for this playdate or just not going? You may feel worried about letting down your friends, or that your daughter won't get enough activity that morning. _So?_ That is a very small price to pay for preserving trust with your daughter. For letting her and yourself breathe and say, okay, we're going with another plan right now. Give yourself that out. It's okay. You always have another choice.

Second, and related to above: Keep your long term goal for your relationship with dd in mind. Try to feel more of a partnership with her. Is it more important to win right now, or is it more important to build that foundation of trust? Though it could have been said differently, some pp's are right: she is only 2, she is still very tender and young. She may be like my dd, and be very verbal and astute, and Lord, it's hard not to expect more out of them when they are like that. But her emotional development is still that of a young toddler. Try to scale back your expectations, let some things go, and see where it takes you. Peace.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

allismom, congrats for coming here! i think we've all done things we've felt bad about, whether spanking or yelling or handling roughly or just being irritable.









i understand what you're saying about not wanting her to think it's okay to hit, but i think you underestimated her when you rephrased the spanking/hitting. i mean it's okay to apologize for hurting her, too, nothing wrong with that, but it would probably have even more impact if you let HER know how horrible you feel for hitting her and emphasize again that hitting is not right. explain that mommies make mistakes, too, and that what you should have done when you were feeling sooooo very angry was take a time out for yourself or hit a pillow or go in another room and scream or count to 10 or stomp your foot or sing a song. you can empathize with her and how scared and sad she must have been. "how to talk..." is a great book and you might find some tips for phrases and techniques you can use in there. i know she's only two, but it never hurts to start now.

i, too, have been guilty of the "mommy's gonna be angry..." bit. don't have too much good advice there, but i guess it's something i should be working on, too. i do sometimes tell my 4 yr old (who is much better at pushing my buttons now than when she was 2 -- so watch out) that i feel angry when blah blah blah and she could help me by XYZ. i don't think that's as bad as when i say things like "you don't want me to be angry do you!?" it's hard, though! i grew up in a not exceptionally demonstrative family anger-wise so i start sort of floundering around in the heat of the moment and say and do things i'd rather not.

it's hard to keep your cool. just remember how you'd want to treat her if she hit somebody else and try to handle your spanking situation the same way. if she hit a playmate would you want to call it another name or explain again that hitting is not right and it hurts other people? would you explain when she gets mad she can hit a pillow instead or say, "i'm very angry!" or whatever you want her to do? then do the same for yourself and explain it to her and apologize and ask for her help next time you get angry. ask her to remind you to take a break or hit a pillow or whatever coping mechanism you want to use.

hth and


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I didn't post to hurt you. I wanted to be clear.

It's hard when we know we're not acting in our children's best interests. We've all btdt and want to avoid going down the same path again.

I'm glad you got some books titles that you think might lend a hand. Hope some of it helps you sort things out.


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

Quote:

everything I read says them learning to fall asleep on own without relying on mom is the only way they'll learn to soothe themselves back to sleep during the night without mom
Probably all written by people who have no experience of it.







I have a very high needs ds and either dh or I have to be with him to help him get to sleep. However, he almost always gets himself back to sleep without me. The only times he doesn't is when he wakes up completely and there is no one with him, because he's scared of being alone in a room, even during the day. If he only partially wakes up or if someone is there, the most that usually happens (and I could probably skip it) is that I say "Lie back down" or "It's still sleep time."


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

wanted to post again and say i hadn't read all the other responses when i posted my first. the thread was up in my browser and i hadn't reloaded.

chfriend is on of my chfriends







and please know that she is an experienced mama of a wonderful and very spirited 4 yr old and also a wonderful 1 yr old (but you don't have to negotiate with them as much at that age!). i think she gave great advice about being on your dd's side and not slipping into an adversarial relationship. my mom gave me that same sort of advice when i got married -- never go to bed angry and always try to be on the same team! i think the "yes" day is a great idea.

on the sleep thing, the family bed board might have more advice for you. we cosleep with our 4.5 yr old and 1.5 yr old. i know one day they'll want their own bed(s) and i'm in no hurry to put them out. nor do i worry about self-soothing. they'll figure that out in time, too. my dd1 is very sensitive and to push her into anything inevitably and almost always backfires. she will not be pushed! it has to be her own idea or she might be receptive to a question or suggestion, but if i start "urging" or pushing hard we just end up in a nasty ugly big fat hairy power struggle that is no fun. also, one more thing on the sleep issue dd 1 was a very fitful sleeper as an infant and toddler though she would resettle easily if i was right beside her to nurse her back to sleep which i think was developmentally appropriate and now at 4 she sleeps like a rock once she konks out. she rarely wakes. i think a lot of it is just developmental.

as far as outings in the mornings -- you know what really works best for us? if *I* get everything ready the night before for the morning and then we eat in the car. we gotta go with the momentum 'cause dd1 is a champeen dawdler and easily distracted by some toy or something or other in the house, but if i have our bags packed and a bagel to munch on and snack we're much more likely to only be moderately late instead of exceptionally late :LOL. our playgroups are very floating and everybody usually packs a picnic lunch. works for us!

hth


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Apologize for being OT, but I had :LOL --here I was thinking *I* was the genius who invented the idea of putting my kid to bed dressed for the next day!


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## yaM yaM (Nov 9, 2003)

If I may. . . .

From a spiritual perspective: The feeling we call 'Anger' is often the result of unrealistic expectations and sometimes even a belief of _entitlement._

But, _justified or not_, anger is _ALWAYS_ belief-based.


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## MamaE (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *May May*
If I may. . . .

From a spiritual perspective: The feeling we call 'Anger' is often the result of unrealistic expectations and sometimes even a belief of _entitlement._

But, _justified or not_, anger is _ALWAYS_ belief-based.


OT, but can you share more? This is such wisdom and I think it's helpful to keep in mind in managing anger and having more patience. Any links/articles/books you can point me to?


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## bookwitch (Jun 30, 2005)

Welcome to this forum.
I came here for much the same reasons you did; I do not want to spank my child. I want to show her what is right and what is wrong.

A little background: I am an "older" mommy -- I didn't have my child until I was 29. My mother-in-law has been bringing me articles on strong-willed children since my little girl was 6 months old! (She just turned 3 on July 3rd) She definitely has her own opinions, and she's learning how to express them.

I know the frustration you've felt. Many times I've been trying to get out the door to go to work and DD has refused to get dressed. She would run from me (not so much anymore, we're still working on that, but it's a game to her some days.), wriggle around while I'm trying to get her pants on, twist into all kinds of contortions when I'm putting her shoes on...well, it sounds like you probably get the picture.

Many Kudos to you for realizing what happened and taking steps to give you tools to avoid it happening again. It's easy to get frustrated. Many, many days I'm PRAYING that my husband is on time getting home because I don't feel like I can handle it any more. But we play off of each other really well. When DH sees I'm getting frustrated, he takes over. And I do the same for him.

I have to run now (hubby cooked dinner! YUM!), and I might not get a chance to get online again for a couple of days, but I did want to post to you and say, I hear ya, girlfriend, I know where you're coming from, and we WILL find a better way.


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## yaM yaM (Nov 9, 2003)

MamaE -

The concepts I mentioned have their basis in cognitive behavior therapy and Buddhism.

Emotions come from beliefs. The beliefs are buried deeply; usually far beneath our conscious minds.

So it takes a while to uncover the beliefs; it's a process not unlike peeling an onion.

According to cognitive behavioral theory, the beliefs are formed mostly during the _pre_-verbal developmental period in a person's early life. The types of responses the child receives (or lack of responses), when done routinely, create beliefs in the child's mind through the transformation of the child's still-very pure perceptions and resulting feelings. The beliefs then form the foundation of all perceptions that the person has.

This is all very complex, and it's getting late. . so I don't know how much sense I'm making. But I've been studying/practicing this therapy for a few years now. It's been very healing, even in the heat of an emotional moment as a parent (getting back to the point of the thread).

I'll talk more about it later. .

Peace.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

shari,

i can totally relate to how frustrating life can be for u. i have a v. spirited child too who entered her two's at 18 months and 3's at 2.5. let me tell u in a different sort of way the 3's are harder than the 2's. and we have the same sleeping issues. the first 3 months of her life she was awake more than asleep. she gave up her morning nap at 9 months and altogether at 2 years.

i remember the two's being v. frustrating for me. so i had to talk to myself to get out of the frustration. it does seem like sometimes u need a break - even half hour every evening or less to either take a shower by yourself or go on a walk. something relaxing, something soothing that has nothing to do with u being a mom. i was a single mom and on ocassion i have 'spanked' my dd. it might be a push to hurry her along, a slap on her hiney when she ran out on the street at 18 months (that was my instinctive reaction and i went hysterical on her with my words. she didnt remember the spanking because i think she associated it with our playful slaps and also because my hysterical behaviour totally surprised her which i am not proud of, but she has never run out on the street again), and finally a slap on her face 8 months ago. not hard but 'hard' enough for her sensitivity. i have NEVER repeated that kind of thing again but after that slapping incident if i ask her she still says i hit her.

honestly when i get angry my first instinct is to give myself a timeout. to get away. to cool down myself because me getting all flustered makes it worse for her as she can pick up on it. though i can totally understand why u wanted to be out of the door. my dd really enjoyed those kind of outings too. she is an outdoorsy v. high energy kinda girl who needed that physical and mental and social activity to even take a nap. and i didnt want her to miss something she really enjoyed. or that was my interpretation. and later i learnt to recognise that we always didnt have to do that. that if we missed it (i have had days like urs) we'd just go on a walk or to the coffee shop - just do something she enjoys. just the two of us and we would have fun. its like she needed a break and a different behaviour that morning signaled she wanted a different day.

so my advice to u is forget the parenting books for now. u kinda know what it is all about.

focus on ur child. focus on how fast she is growing up and that both of u will get thru this. instead of looking at what a pain ur dd is being, focus on it as whata hard time she is having discovering how the world is. not until u see the world thru ur dd's eyes will u have a different perspective, and reading all the parenting books is not going to help u do that. instead i would say read some of magda gerber's books which are available on amazon. she doesnt really focus on what but why. why is ur child behaving that way. if u can see the why u will find the how too.

but i agree with the others. i would not use those words related to ur anger because even though u werent talking about spanking right now she is going to associate spanking with anger. so just be even more lax at choosing ur battles. esp. if it is getting to u.

i understand how difficult it must be for u and ur husband. i was trying to work on our failing marriage so it was so stressful for me. we would never get our time. so instead of building this resentment towards my dd just when my frustration level was the highest which was before xh came home i would wash my face drink some water and specifically sit on the floor and play with my dd. when really it was just the opposite i wanted to do (xh never took her and i couldnt afford a babysitter so there was no option of a break). a few minutes into play something would happen - either a look, a jaw dropping moment or something - and i would fall in love with my dd again. it was almost a v. spiritual moment. of course then i would have to deal with what a horrible mommy i was getting frustrated with her but doing that one on one time with her kinda stopped that feeling welling up either. is there any way that someone could babysit ur dd while u and ur husband get some alone time - say even in teh morning on the weekends.

btw on the sleep thing i did not see any 'improvement' till my dd turned 2.5 and i dont mean about going to bed early (i cant expect that out of her as i work ft and if she went to bed early she would miss mommy time and if she went to daycare early then she would be there longer) . rather more about wanting her own space and sleeping thru the night. the more i try and force bedtime on her the more she wakes up.

hope u all had a great time in the mountains.


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## allismom (Nov 28, 2004)

A GREAT BIG THANK YOU to all of you supportive ladies who gave me some 'gentle discipline' as another poster put it! I knew some of you would pull through and give me some great advice while also making me feel better, without saying what I did was ok (I never wanted that). This thread ended up much better than it started off.....

I learned some great new ideas, techniques, perspectives, and have a 'library' of books from which to choose from now.

DD has reminded me several times since last week that yes indeed, I did spank her. So my poor choice of words initially, didn't matter...she knew it. But we speak frankly about it and she knows I made a mistake. Over the weekend she wanted me to lay with her to sleep since we were in a new place. At one point I said goodnight and that I was going out of the room and would be back and she said "No, you have to stay here, now I am getting very angry.........". DH and I turned our heads in laughter......oh what we say always comes back to bite us doesn't it?

I did have some questions for the poster who suggested the "yes" days with DD. I guess my hesitation is this........let her eat all the cookies and juice she wants in a day instead of healthy foods? LEt her watch all the videos she wants in a day instead of constructive playing? Let her go without brushing her teeth or bathing or changing a diaper? These are most of our battles and I guess I worry that if I allow these things.....then when I return to the 'norm' I am being inconsistent. And I thought it was so very important to be consistent with children?


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allismom*
so I am a bit reluctant for us all to lay down and cuddle again until she falls asleep (everything I read says them learning to fall asleep on own without relying on mom is the only way they'll learn to soothe themselves back to sleep during the night without mom).

Another mama with a kiddo who has fought sleep from day one.

IMO, falling asleep on their own, and sleeping thru the night on their own are milestones. Just like walking, toilet learning, speaking, etc. They will do it when they are ready. Trying to force it earlier could easily make the child even *needier*, kwim?

I know it is hard--believe me, I've been there in the bed with dd for what seems like days waiting for her to fall asleep. But my advice is to cuddle your babe until she falls asleep. Meet the need, and she will outgrow it in her own time--probably sooner, in fact, if you do meet the need!

We've been in the same spot. Had been working on dd falling asleep on her own, and finally realized (after months) "This is not working." We went back to laying with dd, and she slowly started to relax and actually look forward to bedtime (although actually being able to fall asleep was still an issue, but not a discipline issue). Now, at 4.5, she is falling asleep on her own most nights, and sleeping alone thru the night most nights. If she needs me, I join her. But she is outgrowing the need all on her own.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I don't have much time to comment but I just wanted to say my son didn't learn to fall asleep alone until around 3.5 and my daughter (2 yrs 8 mths) is still NOWHERE near being able to fall asleep on her own. Being that I have an older one though I know that it does happen naturally in its own time.


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## bookwitch (Jun 30, 2005)

I'm just coming back from a week of illness, including a trip to the emergency room and 2 trips to my doctor's (with 2 more followups to come!), so I'm sure I've missed quite a lot of stuff.

allismom, it sounds like you're making progress. I hope your time in the mountains was great. Did you get any reading done? I know it's difficult to read with a little one around (especially a particularly active little one!), but here's something that helped me.

My daughter will sleep through a hurricane once she's asleep; I can do laundry, wash dishes, probably even run the vacuum if I dared, while she's sleeping, and she won't budge. While she's GOING to sleep, however, the slightest little noise will keep her awake just that much longer.

I used to feel like a failure for not getting anything done because I couldn't do anything but SIT THERE while she goes to sleep. But I decided I could use this to my advantage. I don't care if the house is a disaster, when I put her down for a nap, I sit down on my sofa and read. A magazine, a book, whatever. (If I feel crafty I'll pick up my crochet or knitting, but it's too hot for that at the moment.) That's how I get my reading done! I'm using the time to my advantage, and my child gets to sleep quicker because she's not wondering what Mama is doing.


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## canadiangranola (Oct 1, 2004)

Just an idea that I use that really helps me regain my cool when I'm frustrated with a diaper change, etc....

We call it the "mommy monster..." I roar and growl like a monster, get down on my hands and knees and "chase" ds and when I catch him I tickle him and we roll around and byt the time it's done we have turned a moment of sheer frustration into a fun little time of physical affection and giggle fest for both of us. The roaring really helps me release my frustrations in a non threatening way (he doesn't know that sometimes the roar is a bit real







), and by the time we are both laughing so much and I have his attention, we are back on the same page and the "ISSUE" (diaper change, shoes, whatever) has become a non issue, non power struggle, which makes it easier to do in the long run.

It sounds strange, but it works like a charm


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## Fiddlemom (Oct 22, 2003)

Allismom,

I came from a not-very-gentle disciplining environment and was "lucky" enough to have a firstborn who is spirited to the nines and pushes every last one of my buttons. Anyone who has never had a child like this will not understand what it means to lose one's cool repeatedly--whether or not it results in hurting one's child--and those people will never understand how badly forgiveness is needed to move on.

You do not need to beat yourself up. You can expect that this may happen again no matter how hard you try to be "perfect." If you are honestly trying to move forward and away from what you, in your body, obviously have learned along the way, you are making progress.

I also feel that shaming other moms because they fall short of the ideals we are reaching for is bad for them and bad for their children....shame begets shame begets shame and along with it goes violence. unfortunately a lot of us were shamed incessantly as a means of control so it comes naturally.

I also think you are extremely brave for coming forward and deserve to be recognized for the desire to change.

You are a good and loving mother. Reach forward. Examine the past and move on. If it repeats itself despite your best efforts keep looking in new places for help and support, and know that the humility of that will serve you very well in changing old behavior.


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