# ABC World News Tonight TOMORROW Wed. 11/28 SPANKING - VOTE ON THESE POLLS!!!!



## Greenie (Sep 27, 2005)

Tune in to ABC World News Tonight TOMORROW (Wed. 11/28) for a story on SPANKING!! Apparently from the preview they will discuss that some parents may end up in jail over it..

Plus, on the ABC website there's a little piece on Massachusetts. They may be the first state to make it illegal. There's a poll on the page, btw.

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/story?id=3921895


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## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

I voted - sadly the vote is going againt us...
peace,
robyn


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

I voted AND posted a comment!!!

We need more votes & comments though!!!


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## sofiabugmom (Sep 23, 2003)

I voted as well. The results were 70 percent against making spanking illegal.

**sigh**







:


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## Maluhia (Jun 24, 2007)

After voting in the poll you can send a video to them if you like - I might make one in the morning about how we are shocked when people abuse dogs (ie. Michael Vick) but our society has taught us that for some reason parents are exempt from the social morays stopping assault on other people based only on age and size which just freaks me out to no end.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I'm posting. I can't keep my mouth shut. This is going to be a long day for me. I'm all riled up.

Yeah - kids are disrespectful today because they're not getting hit enough. Riiiiiiiiiiight.


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## Greenie (Sep 27, 2005)

Just spread the word!! I'll be leaving a comment in a little bit, hen I don't have a toddler climbing on me.


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## Thursday Girl (Mar 26, 2004)

i voted, fox has one as well.

fox's poll


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## Jojo F. (Apr 7, 2007)

Voted and left a comment


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## Greenie (Sep 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jewelysmommy* 
i voted, fox has one as well.

fox's poll

I was going to post this same poll!


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## amyjeans (Jul 27, 2004)

this one is tough for me. I do not approve of spanking in any way, but also feel that the government needs to stay out of our lives! Obviously if there is abuse going on, something needs to be done to protect the child, but where will the line be drawn? some might consider homebirth, child endangerment and push to make homebirth illegal. Or homeschooling, accusing parents of child negelect by keeping them for a decent education in public schools. Know what I mean?
I don't know, may be I am comparing apples to oranges here- I just prefer autonomy. Please don't think I support spankers,I don't-but I have an issue with the government making my decisions for me.
I think anyone with common sense and half a brain should know spanking is non-productive and hurtful-and *they* should decide to find better means of raising their children.
I also feel the govnmt thinks most people are too dumb to figure this out, and therefore need a law to educate us ingorant people.

please bear with me- I am preggy and hormonal.

Am I totally way off base?

be gentle.


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## Jojo F. (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jewelysmommy* 
i voted, fox has one as well.

fox's poll

Voted there too


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## BamBam'sMom (Jun 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amyjeans* 
this one is tough for me. I do not approve of spanking in any way, but also feel that the government needs to stay out of our lives! Obviously if there is abuse going on, something needs to be done to protect the child, but where will the line be drawn? some might consider homebirth, child endangerment and push to make homebirth illegal. Or homeschooling, accusing parents of child negelect by keeping them for a decent education in public schools. Know what I mean?
I don't know, may be I am comparing apples to oranges here- I just prefer autonomy. Please don't think I support spankers,I don't-but I have an issue with the government making my decisions for me.
I think anyone with common sense and half a brain should know spanking is non-productive and hurtful-and *they* should decide to find better means of raising their children.
I also feel the govnmt thinks most people are too dumb to figure this out, and therefore need a law to educate us ingorant people.

please bear with me- I am preggy and hormonal.

Am I totally way off base?

be gentle.

I agree with you. Do we really want laws like this telling us how to raise our children? I'm am not at all supportive of spanking, but a law against it seems a little too big brother to me.

Flame away.


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## yamilee21 (Nov 1, 2004)

The two polls are worded very differently - ABC's poll is more along the line of government regulation/interference in private lives, but the Fox poll describes it as "necessary for discipline" versus abuse. Sadly, 87% of people who have answered the Fox poll think spanking is necessary for discipline.


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## oldermom (Jan 6, 2007)

I agree, too, that it seems to "big brother-ish," even though I don't support spanking. I don't want parents to spank their children, but I don't want it to be something the government involved in.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

I voted too.

A law protecting children from violence is loooonnngg overdue. I would go so far as to say that I am ashamed







: that the U.S. hasn't followed all of the countries that have already taken this step -- some over 30 years ago! -- in recognizing children's right to live free from violence.

I do see the concern people have about "big brother" and line-drawing but to me, it is clear where the "line" should be drawn -- at violence against another human being. I don't want the gov't micromanaging my relationship with my husband either but I am glad there are domestic violence laws on the books. It is time to extend them to our most vulnerable family members.

There are some things parents just should not be allowed to do. Violating a child's bodily integrity by hitting her is one of them.

It is one of my deepest hopes that the U.S. one day follows the international trend of outlawing violence against ALL people, not just grown ones. I do favor non-penal/advisory laws since our culture of violence against children is so deeply embedded.


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## gwynthfair (Mar 17, 2006)

Yeah, I'm torn. I also am not a fan of the government interefering, but on the other hand it's illegal to hit adults, so why should it be legal to hit children?

I also wonder how effective a law will be at changing people's minds about spanking? I don't know how effective they are, but what about a public service message?

I think many people think spanking is effective and causes no damage. But studies have proven the opposite to be true. Some people will spank no matter what, but many people will change if they are given the proper information.

Have any major organizations come out against spanking?


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gwynthfair* 
Yeah, I'm torn. I also am not a fan of the government interefering, but on the other hand it's illegal to hit adults, so why should it be legal to hit children?

I also wonder how effective a law will be at changing people's minds about spanking? I don't know how effective they are, but what about a public service message?

I think many people think spanking is effective and causes no damage. But studies have proven the opposite to be true. Some people will spank no matter what, but many people will change if they are given the proper information.

Have any major organizations come out against spanking?

A law has proven very effective in other countries. In Sweden, the majority of Swedes favored spanking prior to enactment of the law. Now, over 30 years later, the vast majority of Swedes find it entirely unacceptable to hit children.

In countries where the law is newer, I think the cultural shift away from hitting kids is still in progress. If we ever get a law, I would predict several generations before we really saw majority opposition to hitting kids.

I agree though that education MUST be part of the package though, especially in a country that has a tradition of violence against family members -- first wives and now children -- llike ours.

And I agree that many know that hitting kids is ineffective and harmful but I think that polls show that more Americans do NOT know this yet.

And yes, many major organizations are opposed to physical punishment of children -- both global ones and American ones (even the mainstream American Academy of Pediatrics). If fact, it is very difficult to find reputable organizations that support hitting children.


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## amyjeans (Jul 27, 2004)

Quote:

but what about a public service message
excellent idea!


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## Oliver'sMom (Jul 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amyjeans* 
this one is tough for me. I do not approve of spanking in any way, but also feel that the government needs to stay out of our lives! Obviously if there is abuse going on, something needs to be done to protect the child, but where will the line be drawn? some might consider homebirth, child endangerment and push to make homebirth illegal. Or homeschooling, accusing parents of child negelect by keeping them for a decent education in public schools. Know what I mean?
I don't know, may be I am comparing apples to oranges here- I just prefer autonomy. Please don't think I support spankers,I don't-but I have an issue with the government making my decisions for me.
I think anyone with common sense and half a brain should know spanking is non-productive and hurtful-and *they* should decide to find better means of raising their children.
I also feel the govnmt thinks most people are too dumb to figure this out, and therefore need a law to educate us ingorant people.

please bear with me- I am preggy and hormonal.

Am I totally way off base?

be gentle.

I totally feel the same way. you're not off base at all. i'm all for less government.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama* 
I do see the concern people have about "big brother" and line-drawing but to me, it is clear where the "line" should be drawn -- at violence against another human being. I don't want the gov't micromanaging my relationship with my husband either but I am glad there are domestic violence laws on the books. It is time to extend them to our most vulnerable family members.

Word.

This isn't about 'big brother' telling anyone how to parent, any more than domestic violence laws are about telling spouses how to be a wife or husband. It's about protecting children from being hit, just like every person over 18 is legally protected from being hit.


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## Greenie (Sep 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
Word.

This isn't about 'big brother' telling anyone how to parent, any more than domestic violence laws are about telling spouses how to be a wife or husband. It's about protecting children from being hit, just like every person over 18 is legally protected from being hit.









THANK YOU. EXACTLY.

If I'm protected from my husband smacking me around when I piss him off, why should a child of all people NOT be protected? I'm all for small government. I think that there are many areas where the government needs to stay out of our lives.. But when you're talking about an adult hitting another creature, be it another adult, a child, a dog.. Well, it should not be legal.


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## Iris' Mom (Aug 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
Word.

This isn't about 'big brother' telling anyone how to parent, any more than domestic violence laws are about telling spouses how to be a wife or husband. It's about protecting children from being hit, just like every person over 18 is legally protected from being hit.

ITA. I'm in MA, and I'm so excited. I hate the word "spanking." It's hitting plain and simple.

There is a separate issue about punishment. Do I think that parents should go to jail if they hit their kids? Are kids better off in foster care than with parents who hit? Like all things, there are degrees, and education may be the best response to a "first offense." This could turn a bit big-brotherish. I'd be very interested to here how violations are dealt with in other countries that have outlawed hitting children.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

I think I read that the proposed MA law would mandate education (parenting classes as opposed to prison) for violators. But now I can't seem to find where I read that. If anyone knows, I'd be curious to see how the law is drafted. Either way, I wholeheartedly support a ban on hitting kids.

ETA: Although Sweden's law originally mandated classes or counseling, I'm pretty sure that parents can face prison now. I don't know the details of how many offenses it would take to end up in prison. I really think that any law in the U.S. would have to start with non-penal consequences because the sad reality is that the vast majority of Americans do hit their kids -- or at least support it. And violence is a cycle that can take generations to eliminate.


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## Greenie (Sep 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama* 
I think I read that the proposed MA law would mandate education (parenting classes as opposed to prison) for violators. But now I can't seem to find where I read that. If anyone knows, I'd be curious to see how the law is drafted. Either way, I wholeheartedly support a ban on hitting kids.

ETA: Although Sweden's law originally mandated classes or counseling, I'm pretty sure that parents can face prison now. I don't know the details of how many offenses it would take to end up in prison. I really think that any law in the U.S. would have to start with non-penal consequences because the sad reality is that the vast majority of Americans do hit their kids -- or at least support it. And violence is a cycle that can take generations to eliminate.

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news...89/detail.html


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Ladies, please stop me. I can't stop posting comments on abc to the ridiculousness that people are posting, in the hope that maybe one person will read my thoughts and realize they don't have to hit their kid. I feel like I'm







but I just can't stop.








:

Well, I mean, I can stop for a while cause I have to go get dinner, but I know i'll be back later this evening for more.


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## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

I hope this law gets passed. like someone else said, it is so overdue. It should be illegal to hit ANYONE regardless of age. I can't hit my boss when I don't agree with her, why is it legal for me to hit my kids when I don't agree with them?

A no-spanking law is not just about telling parents how to parent, it is also about protecting the humans that pro-spankers seem to think have no rights - the children under 18.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Greenie -- thanks for the link. Here is what
I'd read:

NewsCenter 5's Rhondella Richardson reported that the proposed legislation is a civil law, not a criminal law, which would discipline parents with education and support services.

And The4ofus - you are doing important grassroots activism! Two thumbs up for you (but don't let it drive you batty -- I used to post on a mainstream board and sometimes just found it too sad to argue for the umpteenth time that kids do not NEED to be hit in order to learn














.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

The comments are so awful on that ABC poll page...wow....I've already posted but I'm going to continue to post messages mentioning how ridiculous and awful violence against children is.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amyjeans* 
this one is tough for me. I do not approve of spanking in any way, but also feel that the government needs to stay out of our lives! Obviously if there is abuse going on, something needs to be done to protect the child, but where will the line be drawn? some might consider homebirth, child endangerment and push to make homebirth illegal. Or homeschooling, accusing parents of child negelect by keeping them for a decent education in public schools. Know what I mean?
I don't know, may be I am comparing apples to oranges here- I just prefer autonomy. Please don't think I support spankers,I don't-but I have an issue with the government making my decisions for me.
I think anyone with common sense and half a brain should know spanking is non-productive and hurtful-and *they* should decide to find better means of raising their children.
I also feel the govnmt thinks most people are too dumb to figure this out, and therefore need a law to educate us ingorant people.

please bear with me- I am preggy and hormonal.

Am I totally way off base?

be gentle.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *BamBam'sMom* 
I agree with you. Do we really want laws like this telling us how to raise our children? I'm am not at all supportive of spanking, but a law against it seems a little too big brother to me.

Flame away.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *oldermom* 
I agree, too, that it seems to "big brother-ish," even though I don't support spanking. I don't want parents to spank their children, but I don't want it to be something the government involved in.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *gwynthfair* 
Yeah, I'm torn. I also am not a fan of the government interefering, but on the other hand it's illegal to hit adults, so why should it be legal to hit children?

I also wonder how effective a law will be at changing people's minds about spanking? I don't know how effective they are, but what about a public service message?

I think many people think spanking is effective and causes no damage. But studies have proven the opposite to be true. Some people will spank no matter what, but many people will change if they are given the proper information.

Have any major organizations come out against spanking?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oliver'sMom* 
I totally feel the same way. you're not off base at all. i'm all for less government.

I just wanted to say I have totally had these same thoughts. We walk a fine line when it comes to trying to change other people's parenting practices (or enlisting the gov't to do so) because we risk having our own parenting practices questioned. Most people feel I am doing harm to my child by not vaccinating her. But I'd be pretty upset it if I lost my right to choose. I know and believe spanking is wrong and harmful, but many parents believe it helpful or beneficial. Also to some extent I could possibly imagine a situation where a parent was loving and a mostly good parent who occasionally spanked when they felt it was needed, but when they are no longer allowed to spank they lose confidence in their own parenting. Leading said parent to yell and be harsh with the kids in other ways. And truthfully in that situation I don't feel the children are really much better off. I guess in the end what makes me agree that spanking should be illegal is the fact that spanking really is just a fancy name for hitting, and when adults hit other adults its considered assault so the same should be true for adults hitting children.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gwynthfair* 
Yeah, I'm torn. I also am not a fan of the government interefering, but on the other hand it's illegal to hit adults, so why should it be legal to hit children?

Good point. I voted to make it illegal.


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## sadean (Nov 20, 2001)

This is the comment I wanted to leave, but I am not registered and don't really want to be. If anyone is registered and would like to post this, feel free.

"I think in a modern and "enlightened" society it is appalling that anyone would defend the practice of beating their children. And you may say a spanking is not beating or abusing children, but really, where is the line? A hand is o.k. but a belt is too much? A belt is o.k. but a spoon or a paddle is too much? A paddle is o.k., but a switch that leaves welts or causes the child to bleed is too much? There should be no limit to what a parent can do to their children in the name of "discipline"?

It is all on a continuum and it all teaches children they are powerless against someone who is bigger and more violent, and that they cannot trust someone who is suppose to love and protect them from physically harming them. That is really screwed up."


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

OK, I just went back and my head is going to explode. People just.don't.get.it.

Yes. YES. Kids are rude and disrespectful and entitled today because they're not being hit enough. YES. EXACTLY. It couldn't possibly be that they are exposed to so much violence and disrespect in the media and the way people seem to treat each other out in public that they're simply emulating what they are experiencing. It coudnl't possibly be that parents choose to not spank, but then don't know what else to do and so their kids aren't gettign any guidance or discipline at all. No, it couldn't be any of those things. It MUST be because they aren't being spanked enough. Right. It's all so clear to me now.









Deep breath. Forming coherent thoughts. Must go post again.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Since obviously nobody over there is paying attention to me (oh noes! teh kidz need a beatin to be good!), I thought I'd preach to the choir over here and copy my last post. I think I'm too emotionally exhausted to post any more there tonight.

"OK, I'm going to try it one more time before my head explodes. Not spanking your kid does NOT mean not disciplining your kid. That's where the problem lies. Many people decide to not spank, which is great, but then they don't know what to replace that with. So the kids get no guidance or discipline. THAT is the problem here, folks - kids getting no guidance at all, and turning to their peers, adults they see in public, and media for examples. I mean, really - where do you think kids are learning this disrespectful behavior everyone here keeps talking about? Let's see - Jerry Springer - any number of reality shows where people are rude to each other - TV shows where kids are disrespectful to their parents - adults out in the general public - the list goes on and on. And not ONE of these has a blasted thing to do with spanking your kid. For the love of God people, think about it. Really look and listen even for just ONE day at what our kids are exposed to on a regular basis, from ADULTS who control media outlets and from ADULTS out in public. No wonder kids are floundering. If we want our kids to be respectful and solve problems nonviolently, we need to connect with them, get involved in their lives, and teach them that rude is not cool., and put our money where our mouths are and act respectfully to others..and that is ENTIRELY possible to do without spanking. Give me a spanking situation, and I'll give you a firm, parent-in-charge nonspanking solution to it. The problem with rude, insensitive, entitled, spoiled kids today has little to do with not spanking them, and much to do with parents detaching, kids looking to peers for guidance, and the overwhelming message of biggerbettermoregimmegimme they are bombarded by on a daily basis. Let's look at what our society is offering up as desireable to kids today before using the red herring of nonspanking as the culprit. Not that anyone is going to read my post amidst the hundreds of others."

blarg.







: g'night.


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## L'lee (Dec 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amyjeans* 
this one is tough for me. I do not approve of spanking in any way, but also feel that the government needs to stay out of our lives! Obviously if there is abuse going on, something needs to be done to protect the child, but where will the line be drawn? some might consider homebirth, child endangerment and push to make homebirth illegal. Or homeschooling, accusing parents of child negelect by keeping them for a decent education in public schools. Know what I mean?
I don't know, may be I am comparing apples to oranges here- I just prefer autonomy. Please don't think I support spankers,I don't-but I have an issue with the government making my decisions for me.
I think anyone with common sense and half a brain should know spanking is non-productive and hurtful-and *they* should decide to find better means of raising their children.
I also feel the govnmt thinks most people are too dumb to figure this out, and therefore need a law to educate us ingorant people.

please bear with me- I am preggy and hormonal.

Am I totally way off base?

be gentle.

I agree, that's why I didn't vote in the ABC poll, I'm not so big on promoting big brother when it comes to how to raise kids, even though I think spanking is terrible.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yamilee21* 
The two polls are worded very differently - ABC's poll is more along the line of government regulation/interference in private lives, but the Fox poll describes it as "necessary for discipline" versus abuse. Sadly, 87% of people who have answered the Fox poll think spanking is necessary for discipline.









That is helpful info, I'll go check out the fox one too. I can't believe how many people think that spanking = discipline and anything else is neglect. It is extremely disturbing.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama* 
A law has proven very effective in other countries. In Sweden, the majority of Swedes favored spanking prior to enactment of the law. Now, over 30 years later, the vast majority of Swedes find it entirely unacceptable to hit children.

In countries where the law is newer, I think the cultural shift away from hitting kids is still in progress. If we ever get a law, I would predict several generations before we really saw majority opposition to hitting kids.

I agree though that education MUST be part of the package though, especially in a country that has a tradition of violence against family members -- first wives and now children -- llike ours.

Thanks for this info. It is helpful to hear about how other countries have adapted to things that could happen here.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

I have to say, I'm an uber progressive liberal so this fear of big government doesn't jive with me.

Roads, libraries, schools, fire houses, police stations, social services, health programs for the poor -- these are all government programs. Aren't they good? "Big government", IMHO, has become right wing (I'm not accusing anyone of being a Republican!







) rhetoric to dissuade people from voting for programs that help the poor. And said programs don't get nearly enough funding and therefore are barely able to do much good.

I know the last 8 years certainly don't support it, but government programs and laws and regulations can be very positive in building strong communities and helping the less fortunate among us have a chance.

All this to say that I am totally for a law making spanking illegal. I don't think it's a start down a slippery slope...it's simply a move toward a more humane culture. If it gives parents an opportunity to get information and education about respectful parenting practices that's a huge step in the right direction.


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## Bellejar (Oct 2, 2005)

I am really concerned about the idea of a state outlawing spanking. I don't spank I would never spank but the precedent of the state setting parenting standards is just sickening. How would you feel if the state mandated all children be vaccinated at birth and to go against it would mean jail time? Or if they mandated that children could only be breastfed to one year, because that is the childhood norm? IMHO this goes to far and infringes on the parents rights to be free from government interference. Abuse will still be abuse with or without this legislation.


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## melissel (Jun 30, 2004)

I voted and commented. I couldn't read the comment, they make me want to puke. I will say though, I think the vote is so high against the law because of the "government in our homes" thing. I'm certain that not all of those people are for spanking. My mom is totally against spanking, but would also be totally against that law.

Ugh. I hate even thinking about it, I'm going back into my bubble now!


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## momo7 (Apr 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amyjeans* 
this one is tough for me. I do not approve of spanking in any way, but also feel that the government needs to stay out of our lives! Obviously if there is abuse going on, something needs to be done to protect the child, but where will the line be drawn? some might consider homebirth, child endangerment and push to make homebirth illegal. Or homeschooling, accusing parents of child negelect by keeping them for a decent education in public schools. Know what I mean?
I don't know, may be I am comparing apples to oranges here- I just prefer autonomy. Please don't think I support spankers,I don't-but I have an issue with the government making my decisions for me.
I think anyone with common sense and half a brain should know spanking is non-productive and hurtful-and *they* should decide to find better means of raising their children.
I also feel the govnmt thinks most people are too dumb to figure this out, and therefore need a law to educate us ingorant people.

please bear with me- I am preggy and hormonal.

Am I totally way off base?

be gentle.


I totally agree with this. I also don't think the gov't should have anymore control over people than they already do. Another thing is that people who beat their children are not going to stop simply because the government tells them to.

I used to spank when I first had children, after all, my parents spanked me and I turned out ok,







: so I guess my kids will turn out fine too.







I know the truth now, but I learned it on my own or from the good example of other people.

Spanking is NOT ok and there are other ways do deal with an unruly child. But at the same time, I don't think that spanking is child abuse, I feel that it's a completely different issue than beating a child. It's still not right.

I really don't believe that gov't control is going to change people who already have a problem with abusing their children.


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## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

Maybe its just me living in a bubble and hoping that this type of law would help some parents be forced to find alternatives to hitting their children, but I do think that a law against spanking would stop a lot of people from spanking.

It isn't going to stop everyone. Drugs are illegal, but people still do them. But the fact that they are illegal does stop some people from trying them.

Right now, it is socially ok for people to hit their children. If there is a law against it, people become forced to find other ways of disciplining their children because *MOST* people don't want to do things that are considered illegal.


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## Thursday Girl (Mar 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bellejar* 
I am really concerned about the idea of a state outlawing spanking. I don't spank I would never spank but the precedent of the state setting parenting standards is just sickening. How would you feel if the state mandated all children be vaccinated at birth and to go against it would mean jail time? Or if they mandated that children could only be breastfed to one year, because that is the childhood norm? IMHO this goes to far and infringes on the parents rights to be free from government interference. Abuse will still be abuse with or without this legislation.

hitting is so diffrent from the other stuff you mentioned. Grown-ups have the right to make a choice regarding their own vaccination. Grown ups are protected from being hit. grown ups can breatsfeed if they really want to. I think the point here, the goal is not to interefer with a parents rights to raise their child, but to protect kids, to offer kids the same protection grown-ups and even animals have. What are we saying to America's youth if we let them think, by our actions, that they are not as important as gorwn-ups and animals.We are saying that they matter less to us. We are saying that they can be hit and hurt, but an animal can't???







:

other countries have very succesfully incorporated this into their lives, laws that have been going for decades, it's time we caught up with the rest of the world. this isn't an issue of big brother, this is an issue of giving kids the same rights we as adults have.


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## Thursday Girl (Mar 26, 2004)

they aren't saying spanking is abuse, they are saying it shouldn't be allowed. two diffrent things IMO


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## sofiabugmom (Sep 23, 2003)

I don't see this proposed law as controlling parental standards; I see it as giving a protection to children that adults already have: the protection from bodily harm (probably with exceptions to protect someone or save a life; I'm not a lawyer so I'm just guessing).

If I were to smack my husband because he sassed off to me or because he wasn't doing what I asked of him, I could be arrested on assault and battery charges. The same should apply if I were to smack my child.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Seriously it is paranoid to think that a law like this opens the door to the government telling people how to parent. The law would simply say that you can't assault your child.

One thought though is that in countries like Sweden have WAY more services to support families than we do here. I think hitting is a symptom of an illness that has much deeper roots. Did anyone see Sicko (the Michael Moore film)? After seeing that, I thought I should move to France! The government pays to have someone come into the home to help the mother. Childcare and preschool is subsidized and there are overall just more benefits and programs to support famililes. The values are simply different from a government perspective.

I wonder if a law like this would just punish people without giving them real aid and support. Yes, parenting classes are a good start but working wages, subsidized childcare and affordable housing would probably do much more to relieve the stress.


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## debe (Jan 30, 2007)

I posted a comment- and voted.
This is what I posted.

"It is disturbing that the legality of hitting a child even needs to be addressed. Since the majority of those polled think that it should not be illegal to spank a child, I am led to then surmise that the majority of children are, or have been spanked. If the majority of children have been, or are spanked then there should be less crime and violence, more empathy and sharing, more families experiencing healthy relationships, a general populace that is focused on important social issues, and less selfishness. Thing is, that is not the case. Corporal punishment sets an example of violence. The acceptability of using force to solve problems. This is NOT moral thinking. Punishment does not work. A punished child's reaction is to focus on how the consequences affect themselves, not how their actions affect others, not how their actions led to their punishment. It shows a lack of the respect that so often the spanker is wishing to instill in the child. The lack of respect for children angers me. Where is the mindfulness? I see so many people who would put in painfully long hours for their employer or for a graduate project, or even a hobby, but not for examining their parenting practices. Yes, parenting is hard. There are few good role models. Most of us were not raised gently. But there is no need to parent on autopilot when even a simple internet search will connect one to others who will support the efforts to gently, and respectfully raise a child. It is possible to raise a child to be an independent thinker and successful decision maker, morally courageous, self disciplined/motivated, self loving, AND empathetic person who does not just accept things as they are - but tries to make things better, and to do this without spanking, or using any other conditional parenting METHOD. And to all of you who say "I was spanked as a child and I turned out fine." I want to ask ARE YOU?"


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## Jojo F. (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *debe* 
I posted a comment- and voted.
This is what I posted.

"It is disturbing that the legality of hitting a child even needs to be addressed. Since the majority of those polled think that it should not be illegal to spank a child, I am led to then surmise that the majority of children are, or have been spanked. If the majority of children have been, or are spanked then there should be less crime and violence, more empathy and sharing, more families experiencing healthy relationships, a general populace that is focused on important social issues, and less selfishness. Thing is, that is not the case. Corporal punishment sets an example of violence. The acceptability of using force to solve problems. This is NOT moral thinking. Punishment does not work. A punished child's reaction is to focus on how the consequences affect themselves, not how their actions affect others, not how their actions led to their punishment. It shows a lack of the respect that so often the spanker is wishing to instill in the child. The lack of respect for children angers me. Where is the mindfulness? I see so many people who would put in painfully long hours for their employer or for a graduate project, or even a hobby, but not for examining their parenting practices. Yes, parenting is hard. There are few good role models. Most of us were not raised gently. But there is no need to parent on autopilot when even a simple internet search will connect one to others who will support the efforts to gently, and respectfully raise a child. It is possible to raise a child to be an independent thinker and successful decision maker, morally courageous, self disciplined/motivated, self loving, AND empathetic person who does not just accept things as they are - but tries to make things better, and to do this without spanking, or using any other conditional parenting METHOD. And to all of you who say "I was spanked as a child and I turned out fine." I want to ask ARE YOU?"


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jewelysmommy* 
hitting is so diffrent from the other stuff you mentioned. Grown-ups have the right to make a choice regarding their own vaccination. Grown ups are protected from being hit. grown ups can breatsfeed if they really want to. I think the point here, the goal is not to interefer with a parents rights to raise their child, but to protect kids, to offer kids the same protection grown-ups and even animals have. What are we saying to America's youth if we let them think, by our actions, that they are not as important as gorwn-ups and animals.We are saying that they matter less to us. We are saying that they can be hit and hurt, but an animal can't???







:

other countries have very succesfully incorporated this into their lives, laws that have been going for decades, it's time we caught up with the rest of the world. this isn't an issue of big brother, this is an issue of giving kids the same rights we as adults have.

Very good points. As for things like breastfeeding, some of the countries that have already outlawed hitting children have much higher rates of bfing than the U.S., where it is so common to hit kids. Protecting kids is not about diminishing adults' rights -- it's about protecting children's rights.

The big-gov't argument just doesn't apply here. The gov't is supposed to enact laws to protect the safety and health of the people. ALL people. I just don't see why drawing the line at violence would cause people to think that things like bfing and co-sleeping would be banned. That hasn't happened in any of the 19 countries that already protect children from violence. A line needs to be drawn and that line should be drawn at violence. Period.

ETA: Are the people who fear "big brother" also opposed to laws mandating that toys made in the U.S. be leadfree? Carseat laws? I didn't see any public outcry against those areas legislating for children's health and safety but when it is proposed that kids be protected from being hit, people fear that we will no longer be able to bf, co-sleep, must vax, etc? I don't see that at all.


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## anubis (Oct 6, 2006)

The fact that I'm not allowed to smack DP around (or the other way around) doesn't mean the government is telling me how to handle my relationship with him and what choices we should make, believe it or not. It's simply protecting both his and my right not to be hit. I don't see why that shouldn't apply to kids. Worrying about whether not being allowed to hit kids infringes on someone's rights as a parent is the wrong way around, IMO. And worrying about a ban on violence leading to a ban on bf, co-sleeping or no-vax reeks of paranoia.

I get to choose what vaccinations to get, what to eat and who to share my bed with. I don't get to hit people. That simple. The two have nothing to do with each other.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama* 
ETA: Are the people who fear "big brother" also opposed to laws mandating that toys made in the U.S. be leadfree? Carseat laws? I didn't see any public outcry against those areas legislating for children's health and safety but when it is proposed that kids be protected from being hit, people fear that we will no longer be able to bf, co-sleep, must vax, etc? I don't see that at all.


Good points!! Honestly, I've been really surprised to read the "big brother" fears here at MDC. IME, that argument is usually used by pretty extreme right wing folks and fundamentalists. I'm not intending to name-call here...just hoping that folks will think their fears through before voting on bills such as this.

An anti-spanking law is very progressive. I would hope that something like this would lead the way toward more progressive legislature in the future. One can hope....


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## momo7 (Apr 10, 2005)

swampangel said:


> Good points!! Honestly, I've been really surprised to read the "big brother" fears here at MDC. IME, that argument is usually used by pretty extreme right wing folks and fundamentalists. I'm not intending to name-call here...just hoping that folks will think their fears through before voting on bills such as this. ....quote]
> 
> I'm not sure that wanting to protect your rights is right wing or fundamentalist.....
> 
> ...


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## dex_millie (Oct 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bellejar* 
I am really concerned about the idea of a state outlawing spanking. I don't spank I would never spank but the precedent of the state setting parenting standards is just sickening. How would you feel if the state mandated all children be vaccinated at birth and to go against it would mean jail time? Or if they mandated that children could only be breastfed to one year, because that is the childhood norm? IMHO this goes to far and infringes on the parents rights to be free from government interference. Abuse will still be abuse with or without this legislation.









:

You took the words out of my mouth.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BamBam'sMom* 
I agree with you. Do we really want laws like this telling us how to raise our children? I'm am not at all supportive of spanking, but a law against it seems a little too big brother to me.

Flame away.

I`m sorry. I don`t get this. Have in mind that I`m a Norwegian living in Norway, and have no experience with american culture..

Correct me if I`m wrong, but you DO have laws protecting women from being spanked, hit, slapped og smacked, right? And for animals? And senior citizens?

Then why not for protecting our own children? I truly don`t get it. Your (general you) right to discipline your child stops where your childs body begins. Why on earth is it more important to protect our right to parent than our kids right to NOT being hit, spanked og smacked?

To be a parent is not equal to owning your child. They are their own. With their own bodies. With bodies that should be protected from all forms of physical punishment. JUST like we are, as adults.


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## BurgundyElephant (Feb 17, 2006)

I would love for this to be a law. Because then it would get more attention! People like the Pearls would be out of a job!


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## Bellejar (Oct 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jewelysmommy* 
hitting is so diffrent from the other stuff you mentioned. Grown-ups have the right to make a choice regarding their own vaccination. Grown ups are protected from being hit. grown ups can breatsfeed if they really want to. I think the point here, the goal is not to interefer with a parents rights to raise their child, but to protect kids, to offer kids the same protection grown-ups and even animals have. What are we saying to America's youth if we let them think, by our actions, that they are not as important as gorwn-ups and animals.We are saying that they matter less to us. We are saying that they can be hit and hurt, but an animal can't???







:

other countries have very succesfully incorporated this into their lives, laws that have been going for decades, it's time we caught up with the rest of the world. this isn't an issue of big brother, this is an issue of giving kids the same rights we as adults have.

I am not saying it is the same thing... I am an attorney though so I see this from a very legal standpoint. Once you allow one, people try to bootstrap other things. How much farther is it really to say... The government thinks all children should be free of chickenpocks and other potentially "deadly" diseases, so vaccinations will be required. I agree no one should hit a child, but really I think this is an area I don't think the government should be in at all. lt is too much.


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## Bellejar (Oct 2, 2005)

Incidentally, I do know some spanking parents, and I don't think they are correct in their parenting decisions, but I don't think they should be subject to prosecution for raising there children as they deem fit, as long as it doesn't rise to the level of abuse. I was spanked probably 5 times as a child and although I would never spank, I don't think I was scarred for life by these incidents, nor do I think my parents should have been jailed for it.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CrunchyTamara* 
To be a parent is not equal to owning your child. They are their own. With their own bodies. With bodies that should be protected from all forms of physical punishment. JUST like we are, as adults.

Excellent points. I think people do think that in the realm of parenting, they have the right to do whatever they please. In a marriage, it doesn't follow that logic. I don't get why it's different with a child. I think it just might be such a stretch for our culture right now that it meets resistance.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bellejar* 
I was spanked probably 5 times as a child and although I would never spank, I don't think I was scarred for life by these incidents, nor do I think my parents should have been jailed for it.

If I recall correctly, it was perhaps counseling and education not jail terms. I agree, parents going to jail would be far more traumatic (in most cases) than the spanking. But if parents can get more tools under their belts and hear about the reasons for why hitting doesn't work and is harmful, how can that be a bad thing?

I don't think this law would have any impact on vaccinations, as some have suggested. I think that if the illnesses that are vaccinated against make a resurgence due to folks not vaccinating that would become a public health issue and would have nothing to do with issues of spanking and domestic violence. I'm perplexed by this connection that is being drawn.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bellejar* 
I am not saying it is the same thing... I am an attorney though so I see this from a very legal standpoint. Once you allow one, people try to bootstrap other things. How much farther is it really to say... The government thinks all children should be free of chickenpocks and other potentially "deadly" diseases, so vaccinations will be required. I agree no one should hit a child, but really I think this is an area I don't think the government should be in at all. lt is too much.

I can`t speak for all countries, but this has NOT been the case in Norway, nor Sweden.

And I truly don`t get why this is an area where the government shouldn`t be? Wich area? Abuse? Assaulting another persons body? Spanking/hitting/smacking is NOT about parenting. It`s about violating another human being. Noone is telling people how to parent or raise their child. They are trying to make sure even children are protected from being hit.

Would people say the same if this was a law protecting animals? Would people be up in arms about not being able to raise/train their dog the way they wanted, just because it was illegal to hit and abuse the dog?


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## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CrunchyTamara* 
I can`t speak for all countries, but this has NOT been the case in Norway, nor Sweden.

And I truly don`t get why this is an area where the government shouldn`t be? Wich area? Abuse? Assaulting another persons body? Spanking/hitting/smacking is NOT about parenting. It`s about violating another human being. Noone is telling people how to parent or raise their child. They are trying to make sure even children are protected from being hit.

Would people say the same if this was a law protecting animals? Would people be up in arms about not being able to raise/train their dog the way they wanted, just because it was illegal to hit and abuse the dog?

ITA! People got up in arms with the Baby Grace case. How did it start out? By spanking. I'm sure there are parents that only spank a handful of times as a last resort. However, this isn't what I see when I go out in public. And I've been everywhere on this island, in the country, in the city, in the metro area, in the rich places, in the poor places. It's all the same. People hitting their children in ways that would be illegal to do to a dog or your spouse. But somehow, it's ok to do to kids because "I gave birth to them and they owe their life to me!"

50 years ago, it was ok to spank your wife in the name of discipline. I don't think a judge now would be too thrilled to hear that you spanked your wife because she didn't do the dishes and have dinner ready, and you have that right because you're head of the household and all that jazz. So, why is it ok to spank children? Why can't we enact a law that states that hitting a child is just as wrong as hitting your dog, your spouse, or a stranger?

I do know that part of the resistance against this law is that many people have the "spare the rod, spoil the child" mentality.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

CrunchyTamara said:


> I can`t speak for all countries, but this has NOT been the case in Norway, nor Sweden.
> ....
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama* 
Correct me if I am wrong, Tamara, but the Norwegian gov't is as involved if not more involved in peoples' lives in Norway (universal healthcare, longer maternity leaves, higher taxes, etc.) and yet anti-hitting laws have not evolved into comprehensive parenting laws that touch on vax, sleeping arrangements, etc. and micromanage Norwegian parenting.


You are not wrong.


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## funkygranolamama (Aug 10, 2005)

i voted, too. it's sad that 1293 voted spank them and 364 voted not. it may be the demographics of who typically watches that stuff.


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## tammyswanson (Feb 19, 2007)

You know, it's a nice idea to make spanking illegal, but the road to Heck is paved with good intentions. What if it's illegal and if you even just swat your child, you get taken to jail and your child is sent to a state home. What is to keep your kid from lying about it? Say little billy wants an Ipod and you don't want to give it to him for whatever reason. So little billy says, "Oh YEAH? Well if you DON'T get it for me, I'll tell the police that you HIT me, then you'll go to jail, nyah nyah nyah!".

Think that won't happen? Then you're just fooling yourself. My neighbors kid pulled that, only it was because they got spanked. Oh, and the mother picked up the phone, and said, "Go ahead and call CPS. They'll take you away from here and we probably won't see you again". Her son decided to not call them.

This is taking things too far. Pretty soon they'll make yelling at your child illegal. That can be considered 'abuse' too, right? Or 'punishing' your child by keeping them inside on nice day. That could be considered abuse, since it's good for kids to go outside and get sunshine and exercise. Oh, and is your child getting overweight? That is considered abuse too, since it's bad for their health and can impact them as an adult. Will you be thrown in jail for that too?

Where will it stop? It's a slippery slope.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:

You know, it's a nice idea to make spanking illegal, but the road to Heck is paved with good intentions. What if it's illegal and if you even just swat your child, you get taken to jail and your child is sent to a state home. What is to keep your kid from lying about it? Say little billy wants an Ipod and you don't want to give it to him for whatever reason. So little billy says, "Oh YEAH? Well if you DON'T get it for me, I'll tell the police that you HIT me, then you'll go to jail, nyah nyah nyah!".
I don't want to get into the specifics of CPS, but most states run with the family preservation philosophy...it is pretty well documented that if a child can safely stay in the home that is the way better solution than being placed in care.

If a man hits his wife, it doesn't mean he's going to go to jail. A lot of times, these things are never reported and nothing ever happens, so I think this is a little alarmist. If the authorities were to be alerted, the parent might get the opportunity to enroll in therapy or take parenting education classes. Personally, I think everyone can benefit from these services regardless of their situation.

Quote:

Think that won't happen? Then you're just fooling yourself. My neighbors kid pulled that, only it was because they got spanked. Oh, and the mother picked up the phone, and said, "Go ahead and call CPS. They'll take you away from here and we probably won't see you again". Her son decided to not call them.
I'm not even sure how to respond to this. If a child is threatening to call CPS on their parents (and it isn't justified) there are some issues in that relationship. If my kid were to say this to me, my first reaction would be to work on things with him rather than threaten him with never seeing me again. This is just so far off from GD. Do you think it would help this neighbor of yours to take some parenting classes? Or maybe get some therapy? I think if a law resulted in that (and there was adequate funding to provide good quality of care and services) I think it would be great.

Quote:

This is taking things too far. Pretty soon they'll make yelling at your child illegal. That can be considered 'abuse' too, right? Or 'punishing' your child by keeping them inside on nice day. That could be considered abuse, since it's good for kids to go outside and get sunshine and exercise. Oh, and is your child getting overweight? That is considered abuse too, since it's bad for their health and can impact them as an adult. Will you be thrown in jail for that too?

Where will it stop? It's a slippery slope.
This sounds really alarmist to me. Do you think there were these fears when domestic violence laws were being considered? Or when women were considered autonomous human beings and not property of their husbands? I imagine many men were up in arms about the slippery slope these laws might begin to go down.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tammyswanson* 
This is taking things too far. Pretty soon they'll make yelling at your child illegal. That can be considered 'abuse' too, right? Or 'punishing' your child by keeping them inside on nice day. That could be considered abuse, since it's good for kids to go outside and get sunshine and exercise. Oh, and is your child getting overweight? That is considered abuse too, since it's bad for their health and can impact them as an adult. Will you be thrown in jail for that too?

Where will it stop? It's a slippery slope.

This didn't happen in any of the other countries with domestic violence laws protecting children. It didn't happen with domestic violence laws in the U.S. that protect adults. Why are people so fearful that it would happen if we protect children, who are most vulnerable to violence? The line should be drawn at violence.

Also, a lot of the posts I am reading about "big brother," "big gov't," and "the gov't in my home" all give me the impression that people with those fears still view children, at least somewhat, as property. We are all comfortable with adult domestic violence laws but when it is suggested that they be extended to children, people are suddenly indignant that the gov't would tell them how to parent THEIR children.

I would suggest that this issue is not about protecting an adult's "right" to hit a child. No such "right" should exist. This is an issue of protecting childrens' right to live free from violence. It is shameful, IMO, that American children still have no such right.


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## tammyswanson (Feb 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel* 
I don't want to get into the specifics of CPS, but most states run with the family preservation philosophy...it is pretty well documented that if a child can safely stay in the home that is the way better solution than being placed in care.

If a man hits his wife, it doesn't mean he's going to go to jail. A lot of times, these things are never reported and nothing ever happens, so I think this is a little alarmist. If the authorities were to be alerted, the parent might get the opportunity to enroll in therapy or take parenting education classes. Personally, I think everyone can benefit from these services regardless of their situation.

I'm not even sure how to respond to this. If a child is threatening to call CPS on their parents (and it isn't justified) there are some issues in that relationship. If my kid were to say this to me, my first reaction would be to work on things with him rather than threaten him with never seeing me again. This is just so far off from GD. Do you think it would help this neighbor of yours to take some parenting classes? Or maybe get some therapy? I think if a law resulted in that (and there was adequate funding to provide good quality of care and services) I think it would be great.

This sounds really alarmist to me. Do you think there were these fears when domestic violence laws were being considered? Or when women were considered autonomous human beings and not property of their husbands? I imagine many men were up in arms about the slippery slope these laws might begin to go down.

I'm not being 'alarmist'...I'm being realistic.

There are already laws on the books that it's illegal to abuse a child. Or beat your wife or husband.

Child abuse is Already Illegal. They are wanting to take it to the next step...and then the step after that is....what? yelling at your kid is abuse?

You might like to check this website out, if you think CPS doesn't abuse its authority. Apparently it does. A LOT. I just don't trust our govt anymore.

ALL parent/child relationships have 'issues'...no parent/child relationship is 'perfect'.

Sort of off topic, but circumcision is the WORST form of child abuse..hope everyone is against that here.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tammyswanson* 

Sort of off topic, but circumcision is the WORST form of child abuse..hope everyone is against that here.










But that should be legal, right? Because we don't want the gov't to tell us what to do with OUR children? And for the record, no, I don't believe that it is necessarily "worse" to circ than it is to repeatedly violate a child's body through violence. And it's certainly not worse to circ a child than it is to beat him to death. So no, circ, abusive as it is, is not the WORST a parent can do to a child. Circ and hitting exist on the same ugly spectrum of violence. Both unacceptable and both violative of the CHILD's right to bodily integrity.

I don't see why protecting a child's right to live free from violence induces such fear in people. Why do you fear such a slippery slope here so much when none of the other countries (some with socialist gov'ts and bigger gov'ts than ours, even) have not experienced that? Why in the world would prohibiting violence against children result in making co-sleeping illegal or mandating vaxes? And how exactly would a civil law result in incarceration and removal of children?


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