# I'm seeing a pattern with AP and sleep, and it's not good...



## editornj (Jan 4, 2008)

So with my very limited exposure to parents and babies, and with info gathered here, I'm coming to a conclusion. I'm hoping for arguments against my conclusion, or for you lovely mamas to poke holes in my theory.

Of my friends and family who have had babies in the past six years, it does seem that the ones who co-slept and extended-breastfed ended up with crappy sleepers. I'm not just talking poor naps, having difficulty falling asleep, and waking up a lot at night. Total hours seems to be waaaay less than anywhere near the range of recommended hours for that kid's age group. And I've heard about repercussions, like tantrums and meltdowns (normal for LOs, right?) being linked to a previous night's poor sleep.

At the same time, I've noticed this vague comment from non-CIO moms whose kids sleep (and who coincidentally didn't BF longer than 6-8 months and did not co-sleep). They said the baby had some trouble at night when little, but started sleeping well with minimal wakings at night after 3-4 months of age.

However, when pressed, some of these moms have admitted to letting their LO CIO when they were older, when they "knew they just needed to sleep."

Now, for those of us who may teeter on the line between mainstream and AP or natural parenting, is there an in-between? Can you put the effort forth early on to get your baby to sleep well (without CIO or putting baby in his/her own room or refusing to feed)?

I know I never bothered to read DS to see if he was hungry/thirsty. I never even thought about it (like, hmmm, when did he last have a good feeding?). I just always stuck the boob in his face. And here I am with him at 18 months and still sleeping only 8-9 hours at night and waking up a ton.

Sorry to go off track.

Now that I'm pregnant, I worry about another baby who sleeps poorly. I definitely think DS's poor sleep was a huge factor in my PPD. And I wonder if there is anything I can do early on to prevent a situation down the road where we'll be battling a toddler's sleep habits.

I'm sorry if this is negative. I just have my doubts about my instincts sometimes. Maybe offering the breast at any peep for a year+ helped get us into this pickle? Thanks for your thoughts.


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## Maluhia (Jun 24, 2007)

I'm the execption to your theory - we coslept, breastfed and NEVER CIO with dd - she slept well as a baby (minimal wake ups to nurse and fall back asleep quickly), great in her own bed as a toddler and can go to bed alone and sleep all night at 4 1/2 and has been doing it for over a year.

I really thing sleep issues are personality related and not an issue of CIO vs. AP in my observation of parents and children. If your kid is laid back and naturally mellow - sleep can come easier, other personalities have more difficulty with it - not a reflection of good or bad parenting in any way


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## editornj (Jan 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KailuaMamatoMaya* 
I'm the execption to your theory - we coslept, breastfed and NEVER CIO with dd - she slept well as a baby (minimal wake ups to nurse and fall back asleep quickly), great in her own bed as a toddler and can go to bed alone and sleep all night at 4 1/2 and has been doing it for over a year.

I really thing sleep issues are personality related and not an issue of CIO vs. AP in my observation of parents and children. If your kid is laid back and naturally mellow - sleep can come easier, other personalities have more difficulty with it - not a reflection of good or bad parenting in any way









LOVE this! Thanks for the information and insight. Maybe there is hope for LO#2.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

I think sometimes people find AP only BECAUSE they have a crappy sleeper. I had no intention of cosleeping, and only ended up doing it with ds1 because there was no way I was getting sleep any other way. So I think that it could be true that there are more kids with sleep issues in AP families, but I don't think you can then conclude that AP causes those sleep problems. FTR, after sleep?idon'tneednostinkingsleep DS1, I had a DD who slept shockingly "well" - STTN by 5 weeks, 12 hours at night by 12 weeks+a couple good naps, fell asleep on her own when sleepy, etc. By then, I was much more into AP philosophy and started out with AP in mind. Then I had ds2 who was a more typical sleeper than ds1, but might have been considered a HN sleeper had i not had the experiences I had with ds1. I don't think AP dictated any of my kids' sleep styles - I think that was genetics/ingrained personality/whatever. I think the AP dictated how I was able to cope with it.


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## Mama Mko (Jul 26, 2007)

I think you may hear more stories about babies that sleep poorly because generally if a kid is sleeping, nobody is talking about it!

My oldest son is 4 and coslept, was breastfed, and was never left to cry it out. He now sleeps in his own bed and wakes up once to pee on the toilet then goes right back to sleep. He sleeps 9 hours at night, which is plenty for him. Some days he also takes a 1 hour nap in the afternoon.

My younger son is 2 and cosleeps, is breastfed, and was never left to cry it out. He still wakes up to nurse twice in the night. He nurses and goes back to sleep. I don't have a problem with this arrangement.

I definitely don't think AP makes children sleep more poorly.


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## LeoneLover13 (Jun 30, 2009)

I have to agree with you Mama.

I do not have the knowledge over years past, but from the Moms and babies I currently know and have known since birth through friends and family, there is an obvious 'trend' if you will of the bf on demand-cosleeping-non-cio Moms (myself included) in which their babies do not sleep well at all. Yet all my mainstream Mama friends have pretty much perfect sleepers. As this progresses over time, it seems to stay the same, it never levels out.

I do find the statistics upsetting because I am having a horrific time right now with my DD at naps and night time, but I can't talk to anyone because it would just give them more 'ammo' against my parenting choice and they would also have more reason to try to encourage me to CIO.

At this point in my first child's life, I am reconsidering the choices I made because of how it affecting us all now. I may also be having serious doubts about my instincts (I had a really bad night), but I will be in your position in a few years and I hope I can look back and think "That is worth going through again".


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## lotus.blossom (Mar 1, 2005)

I have had a similar theory since my ds1 was a horrible sleeper and we coslept from day one and breastfed for nearly 2 years. I now know that it was mostly his temperment with a little bit of enabling on my part.

My ds2 has been a great sleeper from the start. Can fall asleep on his own. Sleeps in the pack and play next to me for the first stretch of sleep. Sleeps for 7 hour stretches. Doesn't have to nurse to sleep. In fact isn't really a comfort nurser at all!

What I have seen different in my ds1 is that since he was introduced to his own bed at about 2 and never even slept in a crib, he goes to bed without any fuss. He was never stuck in a crib, left alone, or put on a sleep schedule. So while I didn't teach him how to "self soothe" like the baby trainers want you to. He did learn how to go to bed on his own terms. There was never any getting out of bed multiple times like people who transition their children from cribs to beds have.


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## Naomismom (Feb 20, 2007)

That's been my observation from watching friends' kids too.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

I think there are 3 different explanations for this, probably all correct to some degree: (1) you might also be *hearing* about more problems from one side than the other, and not really getting a full picture; (2) visible problems from CIO seem to be later issues with sleep in my experience, and not toddlers/young kids; (3) all kids are different personalities.

I was a CIO baby. I'm still afraid of the dark, and really cannot sleep alone in a house with no one else there. I never stayed in bed as a child, I wandered around the house in the middle of the night, was always tired at school, and had terrible nightmares. Meanwhile, if you asked my parents, well, they had no idea because I didn't want to be punished and so didn't get caught out of bed/awake if I could help it. Might be less hassle for the parent, I guess, but it's definitely not better for the child! Personally, I think CIO comes back more as a distancing from parents at an older age, less turning to parents for comfort, and in my and my brother's cases at least, more sneaking out in the middle of the night and the like.

DD was not a CIO baby, she CLW, and while she has always had trouble getting to sleep at night, woke up a lot during the night, she's always napped fantastically, still naps at 5, and puts herself to sleep; probably been doing that a year or so. She would gladly stay in bed until 10am, but I just tucked her in now at 9:30pm.

DS slept through the night early on, but he is a NAP RESISTER, an early riser and doesn't tend to fall asleep nursing anymore, though he nurses a ton before bed and naps. He just doesn't fall asleep nursing. He wasn't CIO, and he will CLW too.

They're just different kids with different personalities.


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## tankgirl73 (Jun 10, 2007)

I think that's a very good point... many families end up co-sleeping, whether they intended to at the beginning or not, because that's the only way they could get ANY sleep. The kids were "poor sleepers" before the co-sleeping even started, in other words.

I think your test sample will also be skewed somewhat by parents not wanting to admit that their negative/punitive approach to sleep didn't work as well as they claimed. In other words -- most kids will sleep great some nights, sleep horribly other nights. "Punitive sleep" parents will tend to emphasize the great nights, keeping the horrible nights in their minds simply as the reason they need to continue with the punitive approach. Some "AP" parents will focus more on the negative nights, because we've been told so often by the 'punitive' parents that we wouldn't be having those bad nights in the first place if we'd just shut the kid in their room, let them know who's boss, and leave them to figure it out.

I'm way overgeneralizing here, of course. But I do wonder if there is some kind of effect like that. Maybe CIO moms chat amongst themselves "oh I know dear, my DD had a regression when she was 12mo, we had to Ferberize her all over again. Just goes to show how those little monkeys will always try to manipulate you given half the chance, it's so important that we stay on top of this!" In other words, CIO 'works', you just have to do it again every so often.

Conversely, when an AP baby who was previously sleeping well starts waking frequently, we're inundated with the message that we must have "failed" in "teaching" our baby to sleep. A positive-minded parent will realize that the sleep pattern change means something developmentally big is going on, and the baby legitimately needs more comfort and night-time parenting.... not just 'manipulating' us.

Now, I do think that sometimes AP'd kids can be "poor sleepers" for a longer time than CIO kids. But I don't think that's a bad thing. It's only a bad thing if you believe that needing parenting during the night is a bad thing, or that children are out to manipulate you and for some reason WANT to ruin your night-times. And that tired, exhausted babies will wake up rather than keep sleeping, just to be manipulative or because they haven't learned how to stay asleep.

Instead, it's more demanding on the parents for a certain amount of time, while they need it. Whether to age 2 or 4 or 6. But when they're older, they're more secure because they've learned that nighttime, like daytime, is safe, and their parents are there when they need them. By meeting that need in the early years, they don't worry about it when they're older and don't need us at night as often. The difference is that we've let them come to that readiness in their own time at their own development, rather than forcing them to do it for our convenience.

That being said, I don't mean that EVERY AP'd kid is going to be a poor sleeper. Far from it. Most sleep great. It's the poor sleepers who get all the press, raised as examples by the CIO crowd as evidence that AP doesn't "work". These are the higher-needs kids, who if raised in a CIO household instead, would either be "good sleepers" but have potential security issues, or still be poor sleepers anyway and be constantly punished for it.

In general, from reading tons and tons of anecdotal reports







I think that the majority of co-sleeping, extended BFing babies, start sleeping well -- ie, extended stretches and even all night long, possibly in their own beds or own rooms -- between the age of 2 and 3. That's not too bad in the long term, when you think about it.

There are some great books about night-time AP if you want more "expert" opinions. About how the huge benefits outweigh the potential issues. And I do heartily agree that the potential issues are way dependent on the child's personality... you'll read threads here in fact from parents talking about their three kids, all parented in basically the same way, who had DRASTICALLY different sleeping patterns. Maybe the first was easy and they thought "well this is working, this is easy, what's the big deal?" and then the second is a terror. Or vice versa heh.

For my own example.... DS co-slept until about 18mo when he moved to his own room. He would still come and join us during the night most nights until he was close to 3. He ALWAYS had trouble getting to sleep. Whether nursing, walking, driving, or - I confess - holding him down, screaming and flailing, I was at my wit's end - it took forever for him to get to sleep.

He's now 11, and for the past 2 years needed melatonin most nights in order to fall asleep. He sleeps well once he's down. He's secure with no night-time problems. But he does have going to sleep issues.

Is it because of my parenting, though? No. He's ADHD, possibly Asperger's. The sleep, we've recently learned, is related to that. His brain can't calm down on its own very easily. I can't imagine how it would have terrorized and damaged him if I'd left him to CIO. It's not a matter of me 'making' him 'learn' how to sleep. He has a physiological impediment that makes it difficult for him.

DD is now 2.5yo, approaching 3. We co-slept from the beginning, at 14mo moved to a sidecar bed for most of the night. A few months ago we moved the bed across to the other side of the room. So a bit before 2.5yo. Since that time, she started sleeping amazingly well. Most nights she sleeps all night, or sometimes she'll walk over and join me during the night for a nurse back to sleep. She'll often even wake up in her bed, fuss, roll around, sit up... and settle herself right back down to sleep.

We never "taught" her that, she figured it out herself when she was ready. The only thing we did to "help", was to not *instantly* rush to her aid when she would fuss beside us at night, once she was oh... about 10mo or so? We'd give her a moment to see if it was just a passing sleepy fuss or a real need. As she got older and we observed her growing maturity, we'd wait a little longer -- waiting until she actually ASKED for us. Not when she was an infant. When she was a capable, independent toddler with good communication skills. Not before then.

Anyway, this was way longer than I intended... sorry heh.


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## kgreenemama (Dec 31, 2008)

Before my son was born, I didn't know what AP was. We started bedsharing BECAUSE he was so high-needs. So I don't think it was the other way around. We tried to get him into a crib for the first three months of his life. Perhaps we missed a point at which we could/should have tried breaking the habit of bedsharing, but we don't care. We love having him near us at night, as it turns out.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I love what tankgirl said.

I think one watershed moment for me was when my mother, who had explained several times that she sleep trained me by doing the "check every 5 minutes while child screams" thing and that it worked, talked about how she still had to do it about every 6 weeks. I was like "this is not my definition of 'working' if by working you mean the child learns to sleep and that's it."

Anyways, I think breastfeeding does mean waking up more for a lot of kids, because breasts have different capacities and the milk absorbs pretty quickly. I also think that sleep training works on many (not all kids) so that they give up and sleep more hours. I'm just not sure what it is doing to them in other ways.

I really question this sleep obsession. I think it is because our lives are so crazy that it becomes the issue. We don't seem, as a society, to be as obsessed about maximizing comfort or closeness or watching the stars move in the sky while rocking our babies. Good babies sleep. Bad ones don't. It's pretty reductionistic.

I live in Canada, so my one year maternity leave gave me a nice cushion to figure it out for my family. We definitely wanted and needed sleep, but we didn't place that as more important than comfort or exclusive breastfeeding. However we also didn't expect that choice to not have consequences - my husband had to support me in getting sleep at other times in the day/week, and we had to slow our lives down a bit particularly at the main growth spurts over the first year. We were fortunate to be able to blunder through it.

My son sleeps about 11 hours straight now. He's four.

ETA: I just want to add that I am not saying sleep is not important for everyone. I just think that the idea that any technique that creates sleep is good is questionable - whiskey probably would, but we don't feed that to babies. But if a parent is sleep deprived like mad, that *is* serious. I'm just not always convinced that there aren't other solutions like having the father feed the baby breastmilk from a bottle in a park even if it means crying _in his loving arms_ while the mother catches 4 hrs of sleep, etc.


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

My 2p is that those who say they have perfect sleepers are often unaware that their child is waking in the night. Or they will not admit to their child waking because who wants to admit that CIO doesn't work









I also agree that sleep is more personality driven than parenting driven. I'm nocturnal which is why I am here posting at 3am in the morning.......

My SIL refused to co-sleep, didn't breastfeed past 3 weeks and her dd now 3 wakes up so often in the night that she has put a stairgate across her bedroom door to keep her in her room.







Her daughter is by her standards a crappy sleeper but she might be better if she co-slept - who knows?

I like the KellyMom 'Parenting: Night and Day' area because that is what parenting is to me. You may be able to switch some babies and children 'off' all night but most need you at night too.

All my kids have slept with us for a good while - til 2ish and all but the littlest who is 3, sleep happily in their own beds all night now. Dd2 is a reluctant sleeper and very busy in the night which is why we were tired of co-sleeping with her but also leads to her falling our of her little bed. A bed guard has solved this problem and she can now sleep for a good 9-10 hours before appearing in our bed which is great.


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## lizziebits (Sep 3, 2007)

OK, didn't read all the posts but had several points I thought of reading through:

-- My son ended up co sleeping with us at night because he was a really terrible sleeper. It just made my life easier. If he was only waking up once or twice a night, I would have been ok getting up and going into another room. So cosleeping didn't cause poor sleep, poor sleep caused cosleeping.

-- My SIL just had a baby in June. I was there (stayed with them to help) from the time they got home to the hospital for 12 days. He slept 3 hour stretches for day 1, and currently sleeps 10 hours at night at 3 months old. He has slept either in or next to their bed and breastfed on demand from birth. Definitely no CIO.

-- Once my son got a little older, like over 1 year, and was still waking up a billion times per night, we decided we were comfortable trying to have him fall asleep on his own. So, over many months, we slowly had him learn to fall asleep first without the breast, then without bouncing, then without being rubbed, until he would fall asleep while we just sat in his room with him. It took forever because we didn't let him cry. However, once we accomplished this we noticed that he really did stop waking up so much.

So anyway, I think part of it is definitely just nature. My philosophy is I don't really plan on trying to change sleep habits too much before a year, because they really don't get what is going on. After that though, I'm happy to try and influence them into better sleeping.

Oh, and finally, I think its important to realize that kids who aren't getting enough sleep will be cranky and miserable, and sleep even more poorly. I think if you are in a situation where its a young baby (too young to work on gently improving sleep habits) it is important to just do whatever the heck it takes to get them sleeping more -- nursing, driving, bouncing, sleeping next to them. Once they start actually getting some decent sleep, they are more likely to sleep better without so much intervention.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

I think that CIO moms don't actually know their kids are waking in the middle of the night, because the kid knows that crying won't bring anyone to them, so they don't. It doesn't mean they don't wake up. To a CIO parent, no crying = STTN, which is not necessarily true.

I am one of those moms who started AP because my DS demanded it. After 2 years of sleep torture, he is much MUCH better now. He sttn most nights, and when he doesn't, it only takes a little pat to get him back to sleep. He is, however, still stubborn as can be about going to sleep. DD on the other hand STTN or wakes up once at 6 months. She usually only wakes to pee (she's ECd) and then goes to sleep, sometimes without nursing. She sleeps right through peeing even sometimes







.

They are very different kids, but I've done the EXACT same thing with both of them. No one would know about sleep problems with DD because we just don't have them. I think the ones you hear about are the ones who are having a hard time.

I also seem to remember 18mo being a particularly bad time for sleep for us. He was transitioning from 2 naps to 1, and was also going through a lot of verbal development. He weaned at 19 months because I was 5 mo preggers and had absolutely no milk left. Also I couldn't stand him nursing for more than 30 sec at night. I hope it clears up for you soon.


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## sdmoose (Feb 1, 2006)

I have two boys. My oldest woke a lot during the night for a long time. He was highly active, "highly interactive", high touch baby. He nursed a lot during the night. This was a pattern from DAY 1 with him. He'd have awake periods during the night starting the first night home with him. My second ds has been an easy, calm, mellow baby since DAY 1. I also noticed their in-utero personality matched their personality out of utero. I have not been sleep deprived with this second baby at all. He does co-sleep and sometimes wakes to nurse at night, but he is the most mellow calm little guy. I have done the same thing with both boys and I have two totally different boys. Personality dictates sleeping outcomes during this first year, in my book. I have a friend who "sleep trained" her twins at 4 months. They were scheduled to the max. Now her daughter is 3 1/2 and going through a terrible sleep phase waking several times a night. So much depends on the child's needs and emotions and development at the time.


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## Jenivere (Aug 4, 2003)

I have four children that have breastfed on demand and co slept. All of them sleep well. My oldest three sleep 10-12 hours a night. My baby is six months old and still wakes a few times a night. We have never made any of our kids CIO.


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rebeccajo* 
I think you may hear more stories about babies that sleep poorly because generally if a kid is sleeping, nobody is talking about it!

My oldest son is 4 and coslept, was breastfed, and was never left to cry it out. He now sleeps in his own bed and wakes up once to pee on the toilet then goes right back to sleep. He sleeps 9 hours at night, which is plenty for him. Some days he also takes a 1 hour nap in the afternoon.

My younger son is 2 and cosleeps, is breastfed, and was never left to cry it out. He still wakes up to nurse twice in the night. He nurses and goes back to sleep. I don't have a problem with this arrangement.

I definitely don't think AP makes children sleep more poorly.









to you *ppppbbbbblllfffttttt* I know where you live..lol....

LOL, ok not really mad.








why did I get the non-sleeping kids?








Yes, i ABSOLUTELY see this. There are , of course, individual differences in temperment and sleep patterns, but in general, on the average, breastfed, APed babies do seem to be way worse sleepers than mainstream parented, formula fed kids. I do believe a lot of it is individual personality..and that MANY kids would be poor sleepers..but it is just taht AP parents don't force their kid to conform to a different way of being, and instead, try to respect and nurture the child's natural rhythms.
I will say that with my own kids and those i am close to, the breastfeeding seems to have the most direct affect - as in, it causes/relates to the most nightwaking and poor sleeping. As soon as breastfeeding is cut down, or nightweaning happens, there is generally a noticeable difference in sleep habits.
I will also say that the few times i have LOST IT, and let my kids cry while i left the area, (because it was either that or BEAT THEM TO DEATH, i do not CIO as a rule,lol), they slept like ANGELS, usually for a much longer, sounder stretch by FAR than any other night, sometimes all through the night. This has happened with both of them. I do believe that something in crying, expresing all the pent up emotion, etc, exhausts you..i know how *I* feel if I let loose and have a good cry over something..sleeping afterwards is just natural...i'm not advocating CIO at all, but I do think that..biochemically or whatever, a good cry leads to sleep.
I have also found that getting kids good and tired helps with sleep. A day where we play and go places, and they have lots of new info to process, etc, makes them sleep better than a boring day at home.

I do know that i attended a LLL meeting a couple years ago that stuck with me. there was a mom there, and she had 2 boys that were older, and then had a new baby girl. At this meeting, the girl was about a year old, and sleep came up.
And she sheepishly admitted that she had been one of the judgemental mommies, so very smug, who had believed that SHE had "taught" her boys to be "good sleepers" and that if other moms would just stick to a routine, like she did, they woudl have the same results.

Then came baby girl.
She said that she realized that SHE had had NOTHING to do with teaching her older boys anything..she now knew that she had just been blessed with REALLY GOOD SLEEPERS, LOL!!! And that having a really bad sleeper really did make such an exterme difference in the parenting experience.

Anyway..that has always stuck with me.

ithink a lot of it is also the parents perepctive on sleep.....some people are well equipped to do okay on less sleep, and others, not so much. My mom can do without sleep (well, nearly, lol) So, if she had had a poor sleeper, she just would have dealt and brushed it off, and I don't think it would have stuck out in her memory much at all.
Me, however? I LOVE sleep. lots of sleep. mmmmmmm, sleep. When I don't get enough sleep, it drastically affects me. So any sleep deprivation, however slight, makes such a huge impression on my overall outlook on life.


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## editornj (Jan 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LeoneLover13* 
I do find the statistics upsetting because I am having a horrific time right now with my DD at naps and night time, but I can't talk to anyone because it would just give them more 'ammo' against my parenting choice and they would also have more reason to try to encourage me to CIO.

At this point in my first child's life, I am reconsidering the choices I made because of how it affecting us all now. I may also be having serious doubts about my instincts (I had a really bad night), but I will be in your position in a few years and I hope I can look back and think "That is worth going through again".

Same here. Agree with "ammo" and not being able to vent, along with doubting instincts. It's really tough. And when people see you struggling they want to "help" but only in they way they believe is right. At least this is my experience. Hugs.


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

I slept alone from birth and was never breastfed and I STILL don't sleep through the night









Really, people are just wired differently. I have 4 children. All extended breastfed, cosleepers from birth until they wanted to leave the bed, all the good stuff. Ds1 was a horrible sleeper. He never slept more than 5 hours in a 24 hour period for the first 3 years of his life. Now he is 8 and he still takes a long time to fall asleep. He wakes up a couple of times a night and then has difficulty getting back to sleep. He tosses and turns and is really restless at night. Essentially, he sleeps JUST LIKE ME. I come from a long line of insomniacs who generally get by well on very little sleep.

Then along came ds2. He slept for 10-12 hours a night right from birth. With the rare exception of teething, illness, or developmental milestones he has slept well every night of his 6 years of life. He falls asleep as soon as his head hits the pillow and then nothing revives him until morning when he springs out of bed well rested. Essentially, he sleeps JUST LIKE DH. Totally not fair! What I wouldn't give to sleep that well!

My girls are a mix as well. Dd1 has gone through some crazy night waking phases. She would be up for hours at night playing or causing trouble. Once I even found her footprints in the snow in the back yard. Scary! She didn't wake us up, she just crept out of bed and played silently. I only knew she was up by the evidence I found, otherwise I may have believed she was STTN







Thankfully she outgrew that phase and at 4 years old goes to bed happily, puts herself to sleep, and aside from the occasional night she prefers to be in her own bed.

Dd2 is only 2. She wakes at 1am to nurse then sleeps until 7am. She isn't the all-star sleeper that her brother is, but still pretty good aside from the usual teething and such.

The biggest difference I have found between the more gentle methods and the more mainstream ones is the child's attitude toward bed time. For us bedtime isn't really a struggle. It is a time to snuggle and to reconnect. It is a time for talk and sometimes a time for silliness. They are kids and so occasionally we have those nights where they procrastinate or don't want to sleep, but most of the time they go to sleep happily and without complaint.

There is very little fear as well. I think it is because they have always had dh or I available to parent them as needed day OR night. Night has never been a source of fear or stress. We have always responded to their NEED for us at night for food, comfort, or just company. I think THAT has more value than a certain number of hours of sleep. I love that they have the confidence in us to know we will be there for them unconditionally......not just between the hours of 7am and 10pm.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

I don't think AP makes poor sleepers, but I don't think there's an AP model of getting your kid to sleep and sleep through when they don't develop within the idealized standards.

For my non- sleeper, on the one extreme there is CIO which would not have worked. On the other is just letting her be and following her lead which DID NOT WORK. Somewhere in the middle we FINALLY hit upon the idea (thank you Sleepless in America) of setting up her DAYS to make her NIGHTS better and that finally worked. Thank goodness.

There's also such a range of what is AP to most people. So many times in this forum what I see is "suck it up" and that is useless if not downright mean advice for someone who is stumbling through year three of sleeping in 45 minute chunks. The options are NOT do CIO or do nothing. There are other options that are worth exploring because IMO having a child does not make you a super human who doesn't have any needs of her own and sleep is a need as basic as food.


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## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

We have never done CIO, and never will. We co-sleep, extend BF on demand and are very AP generally.
We have great sleepers, they sleep wonderful, always have. All of them.
And bc we co-sleep, we know they are actually sleeping all night, and also bc we actually respond, they aren't afraid of telling us if they wake up.
CIO babies/kids give up, they resign, they know that nobody is going to come if they cry, so they don't. Doesn't mean they sleep well. It only means their parents don't know when/how much they're awake. (And that it can damage them for life.)
(Also, you hear more about kids who don't sleep, bc if they do, you don't talk about it in the same way.)

I know a lot of AP parents, actually most of our friends are, and we see the same in their kids as in ours. Very safe, secure kids, that thrive, sleep well and are happy kids with good lives.
I hear other parents on AP forums online describing that too.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Both of mine have been in our bed from day 1. I would call both excellent sleepers. Dd sttn off and on from day 1. Doesn't wake at night now. Never nursed more than once or twice in the night. Never slept as much as "they" said she should, but she was chipper and happy and never fought sleep.

Ds nurses once or twice in the night and always has. Has STTN a handful of times. Never fights sleep. Naps well (1-2 naps a day of 1-2 hours) Goes to sleep easily and never fusses.

Neither child ever cried at night (during "sleep time") unless they were ill or in pain (teething) EVER.

-Angela


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## stormborn (Dec 8, 2001)

Didn't read the other replies; in a hurry...
I think so much of it is personality. With both of mine I did/do as you did~ stick a boob in her mouth for everything. Both slept with me.
First baby was NOT a good sleeper. Up every few hours forever. Still isn't really at 8, only now I don't have to stay up with her!
Second actually sleeps like the baby books







say they 'should'. 10-12 hours at night, naps on a regular basis. At first I thought something was wrong with her because she's such a different sleeper compared to her sister.








Both had the same everything, just different wiring.


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## spmamma (Sep 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lizziebits* 
-- My son ended up co sleeping with us at night because he was a really terrible sleeper. It just made my life easier. If he was only waking up once or twice a night, I would have been ok getting up and going into another room. So cosleeping didn't cause poor sleep, poor sleep caused cosleeping.

This was our situation. DD was a terrible sleeper from Day 1. I'm not kidding... she screamed all night long the first night after she was born. I thought I was a horrible mother! Turns out she was just a terrible sleeper. Co-sleeping actually helped. I got more sleep, and it was better quality than before.

We'll definitely do it again this time around.

ETA: DD started STTN at age 2. She's slept in her own bed since she was about 18 MO, and was always welcome to join us in our bed.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

I thinl sleep is affected by our individual personalities. I was BF for only a month and put in a crib from day one and slpet great as a baby. However, I do not sleep wonderfully now but wake up several times throughout the night. I've had sleep issues as an adult in varying degrees.

With my DS who just turned one, we coslept for a year and just transitioned him to a crib in his own room. He is still nursing right before bed but is now STTN. He has only started STTN in the past 4-6 weeks. He was just ready. Of course I still check on him several times because I'm up anyway


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## LisainCalifornia (May 29, 2002)

My kids were all terrible sleepers, and in hindsight I think maybe I caused it with co-sleeping and liberal boobage at every waking. They are all older now and do sleep, thankfully (they are 15, 12, 9)--but the first few years with each of them (and even longer, actually) was a living hell of me waking up every hour or two to nurse.

My friends who were all about the cry it out method had these super sleepers that went down at 7:00 (!!) and slept all night--even when sick. My kids stayed up late with me and slept terribly all night.

I really do think I caused the bad sleeping patterns and if I had to do it over again, I might do it differently.


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

my daughter has always been a restless sleeper, needing a lot of comforting to go to sleep and stay asleep, but my son was a wonderful sleeper from day one -- fell asleep easily on his own, stayed asleep, went back to sleep without nursing more easily than his big sister. we did everything exactly the same with them, they just sleep differently. I wouldn't say it's "personality" necessarily, because my dd is far more easygoing than my son and she's the terrible sleeper, but I definitely beat myself up over AP'ing her to sleep all the time until ds came along and proved to me that they are just wired differently.


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## terrainthailand (Mar 31, 2008)

I agree with others who say that they came to some AP practices _because_ of bad sleepers. I never intended to co-sleep because I am a heavy sleeper and was worried it wasn't sleep. But from the very first weeks it was the only way I could get any sleep.

For me though, the real point is this, even if it were true (and I'm not saying it is) that AP practices contribute to crappy sleeping, then what? I'm sure you aren't going to practice CIO! Some children clearly need parenting during the night, are we going to deny them that? When I have a second child, I will certainly try early on to establish good sleep habits, but I know I may end up with another crummy sleeper and I'm certainly not going to throw AP out the window. I just couldn't imagine doing things any other way.


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## echospiritwarrior (Jun 1, 2006)

I have to agree with a few others that it's likely more the child than the parenting techniques...

We happen to go against your hypothesis. AP/co-sleep and two great sleepers. Both started sleeping through the night intermittently around 3-5 months and almost always by about 12-14 months


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## Louisep (May 1, 2009)

Whenever I start thinking my DS's sleep problems are my fault and related to APing, I remember someone I know who has twins (the perfect controlled experiment!). One twin slept beautifully in her crib from day one but the other twin was a terrible night waker and they co-slept with her as a way to get the most rest.

I think it's definitely true that a lot of parents co-sleep because their LO is a poor sleeper. I also fell into AP because I have a high needs LO and it was my instinctive reaction to his needs.


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## Louisep (May 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole* 
I don't think AP makes poor sleepers, but I don't think there's an AP model of getting your kid to sleep and sleep through when they don't develop within the idealized standards.

GREAT point. And that is the reason this forum is full of poor moms seeking help and giving the appearance that AP and co-sleeping create poor sleepers.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

I think the #1 reason for night-waking is personality of the baby. I know people from both sides (AP and very mainstream/CIO) who have poor sleepers and good sleepers. I know people who have done CIO almost from the beginning or from very early on and their babies only STTN for a short time, then they have to do CIO all over again.

That said, BABIES who are left to CIO will sometimes sleep longer. That doesn't necessarily mean they are sleeping BETTER. But they have learned to give up on crying and go into a deep sleep. Studies have shown that none of this is good for babies.

However, I think a lot of the effects of CIO and AP nighttime parenting are seen long-term, rather than immediately.


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## Violet2 (Apr 26, 2007)

Haven't read all the replies but I don't think it's AP, I think it's breastfeeding that is the problem. My nursing book said that 66% of bfing babies don't sleep through the night for the first year.

Also the first year of sleep is crap anyway. Once motor development kicks in, it keeps kids up. Then there are all those lovely sleep regressions.

So I think the root cause is different.

However, I do see a lot of mommas sacrificing their wellbeing on the altar of AP needlessly. Sleep has to work for everyone, not just one person in the family. So if baby is catered to at the expense of everyone else and their sanity, well then something needs to change.

My personal philosophy is AP up until around 1 year and then night wean and begin to let baby figure out sleep on their own, with my supervision and not doing CIO. It didn't quite work exactly like that for us since DD had her own ideas, but roughly that is what we did. I also had a child that needed to be left alone to sleep and needed to find her own way, AP as she got older, was resulting in too much micromanagement of her sleep environment.

AP is not a cure all or one size fits all solution, sometimes I think parents, in their zeal to do the best they can, forget that what they do needs to actually work too.

V


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Hi. Didn't have time to read all responses so forgive me if someone already brought this out.
McKenna did research (most of you already know) and found that it is true that babes who sleep next to their mamas and nurse do wake more to nurse through the night. So, I considered what have women done from the beginning. Babies had to sleep with their moms all night to protect from wild animals and freezing to death. Also, there was a whole tribe women of all generations to help with food preparation, etc. And that is all they did. Cared for the children and took care of their living quarters. They didn't have all the things that we have to do. Now our lives are so complex and complicated and busy with no tribe of women to help us. We spend hours cleaning. I highly doubt that cave women spent hours cleaning their cave or tepee.
So, now that we live in this busy complex society we have invented cribs and warm clothing and formula to make our lives easier since we don't have that tribe of women helping us. However the biological-emotional needs of the baby are to nurse frequently day and night, but our lifestyle doesn't encourage and sometimes doesn't allow for that kind of care for our babes. So, some of us decide to do it any way, or some form of it. Meanwhile people think we are crazy for it. I still think biologically and emotionally it is how babes were meant to be cared for even if it means losing out on sleep. Of course if you are suffering from ppd you should do whatever you need to do to care for yourself first. In that case, you need sleep otherwise you can't care for your babe. I think ppd is a symptom of our crazy lives in combo with imbalances in our body. Sorry you are struggling and hope it gets better soon.


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## DianeMarie (Jul 7, 2009)

I personally think it is a number of contributing factors---the wiring of the baby, how the parents (mother) respond to them during the night (by this, I mean allowing them to nurse whenever they want for an extended period of time or setting some limits at night, and/or picking baby up andgiving them extra "stimulation" instead of letting them lay there and talking or patting or whatever), what the actual sucking need of the baby is and how that is handled (pacifier or breast), actual comfort of the baby (swaddling or not swaddling), growth spurts of baby.

You can't contribute ONLY AP or CIO for poor sleepers. I do happen to think, though, that if babies get used to having breast in their mouth all the time, that is what they get used to and CANNOT FALL ALSEEP WITHOUT IT. They get used to bedtimes and wake up times---or they get used to falling asleep and waking up whever they want. I think that a baby NEEDS to have some routines imposed instead of having them dictate their own schedule---their bodies are not capable of forming their own routine! And, when people say that babies are waking up and crying/screaming for the breast it is to "manipulate" the parents----I don't think that manipulate is the proper word here---but I DO BELIEVE that babies get used to what they have gotten on a regular basis and that is what they want, they don't have the ability to figure out any other way to fall asleep and stay asleep without having a nipple in their mouth! Babies are little people---and people get used to their own "routines" too----if you are used to having a cup of coffee when you wake up, then that is what you are used to and it is very difficult to NOT have that cup of coffee when you wake up and it is a hard habit to break. The same holds true for wanting the nipple in the baby's mouth to fall asleep---it is a HABIT that they have gotten used to, not something taht they are using to "manipulate" their mother with. Babies aren't capable of that!!

What I have read is that mothers who let their babies nurse all night and don't impose some sort of limits as time goes on end up miserable. You can have a child who is a poor sleeper or a good sleeper---but when they are totally addicted to the breast, that is where the most problems arise! Of course you want to comfort your baby and soothe them, and of course from the beginning that is the way to comfort them. But---I think mothers are setting themselves up for a lot of sleepless nights/months/years if they don't institute some limits and schedules as far as breastfeeding goes. They want to do the child-led weaning thing, and they give their child the breast whenever they want with no boundaries, and then when their child is 3 years old and ripping their top off at a wedding or other social event and screaming that they want boobies, Moms are at their end of their rope and crying that they need help.

I think that even though people say they do AP, they do it differently and that there are a lot of "improvisations" out there. I think you have to take it on a baby-to-baby basis----if you have a laid back and easy going baby, and if they sleep in good stretches then those improvisations don't have to be done. But, with a child that wakes up every half hour at night screeching for the breast and is unable to be put to sleep without hours of breastfeeding, then limits need to be imposed to preserve the sanity of mom and dad---or else they are on MDC pleading for help!! I think also that mom's view "limits" as doing a bad thing or "depriving" thier child---and that's not true at all. Certainly I am not talking about a 4 month old. But, when kids start to turn
1, then 2, and then 3 and up, and they won't sleep without waking up every hour to nurse and can't fall asleep on their own, that is where the problems really arise. And, unless you can sleep all night being chewed on, mothers end up majorly sleep deprived and miserable! Every mother wants their child to sleep, because sleep is important for development---but, mothers need sleep too, or else they go beserk!! You can't bend over backwards and deprive yourself of so much sleep just to get your child to sleep. You can certainly let your child know that they are not alone and that they don't have to be afraid without having them suck on your nipples all night long.

I think some of it also has to do with how much a child is stimulated when they wake up---if they get picked up, or they are just patted and talked to while still laying down, if they get nursed, if they are allowed to sit up and play, if the lights get turned on----all these things factor in, which is why I don't think it is easy to compare one with the other.

I know lots of people who were CIO babies, and they are fine (I'm one of them) I know people who have a terrible time sleeping and they were CIO babies. I know mothers who had their babies in their rooms/beds and they are great sleepers, and mothers who had their babies in their rooms/beds and they are horrible sleepers. There are A LOT of variables that come into play--HOW they co-sleep, are there 2 parents or one, are there siblings or no siblings, does light leak in the room at 5am or is it pitch black out at that time, is the baby a hungry type or not so hungry all the time, do they like cuddling or do they like their own space..........lots of variables. There are even big variables in the personalities of mothers/parents---you can have an extremely laid back mother who doesn't get all that upset with the crying and fussing, you can have a type-A mother who is affected by any little noise or "wrong" reaction of a baby, mothers who get mad quickly and mothers who don't have a temper.............

So---in my infinite wisdom







, there are genetic and environmental factors involved in sleeping, and comparing CIO with AP is difficult. Kids are different, adults are different, environments are different............I say whatever works for you is the winning method!!


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## dogretro (Jun 17, 2008)

I also think baby's personality has the most to do w/ night waking, w/ a bit of extended breastfeeding, too. If the kid is going to be given the chance to eat in bed, he is probably going to wake up to eat. If he had to get out of bed, go down to the kitchen, and have cold milk, he probably would not see it as worth it.

Our daughter was always a good sleeper. She slept in our bed and always woke up at least twice to nurse. I did night wean her at 10 months b/c 1) I was done and 2) I knew she was just thirsty, not hungry (she day weaned mostly on her own). I started offering her water from a bottle when she woke at night. Some nights she would gulp it down & sometimes not. She still woke at least twice. When she moved out of our bed into her own bed and room at 12 months, she started sttn. She does still need one of us to lay w/ her until she falls asleep, but takes a great nap and sttn every night. No nightmares, terrors, crying, nothing. She just enjoys sleeping!

Oh yeah, and it's not like you have only two choices: extended bf and bedshare OR cio. There are many variations. You dont HAVE to let your child in your bed, you dont HAVE to shut them in their room at 8 pm, etc etc. I think too many moms box themselves in to only one or the other, the end.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

We started co-sleeping due to my having an emergency c/s and it was the only way I could lie down and feed DD, plus she would SCREAM bloody murder in her crib, every single time we put her in there.

She slept really well as a small baby, it wasn't until she started getting teeth, changing developmentally and such that her sleeping changed. I honestly don't really get the whole mentality of babies and small children should be expected to sleep through the night, when I was pg with DD all I ever heard was say goodbye to sleeping through the night. I *never* heard anyone say oh kids sleep so awesome. The under 5 set just aren't quite programmed(unless you "program") them to sleep. Now I have to say DD is 3 and there have been a couple times this summer while getting her to sleep in her own bed that she has had a couple crying spells, not long, but just kinda fits-then she has slept. Truth be told, she sleeps pretty darn well, if there was never a full moon I think we'd do even better.

She is not much of a napper, she really hasn't been since oh 16-18 months, that's personality related, not AP related. I don't even consider myself totally AP, I'm more mid-stream. I love baby wearing, breastfeeding, co-sleeping and some aspects of GD. There are other things that require too much time and energy from me to be truly AP, and that is fine.

I fully believe co-sleeping made me a better mom with better sleep. I mean there are always nights that are crappy sleep-_it's called having kids._


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DianeMarie* 
I do happen to think, though, that if babies get used to having breast in their mouth all the time, that is what they get used to and CANNOT FALL ALSEEP WITHOUT IT.









: I spent the first four months of Lina's life sticking my breast into her mouth whenever she stirred. She spent the next four months finding a nipple and popping it in whenever she stirred. She now consistently will stop nursing while she's slightly awake, contemplate the ceiling and her hands for a few minutes and drift off.

I have to encourage her to nurse a few times a night instead of just sleeping through her latching on. Utter nuisance. I keep being woken up by the fullness of my breasts while she snoozes away.


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## krystyn33 (May 30, 2006)

My vote is that sleep quality has WAY more to do with temperament & physiology than parenting style.

Breastfeeding may lead to more frequent waking for young infants because of the ease of digestibility compared to formula (which is slower & more sluggish in the system). But ultimately a child's developmental readiness to sleep consistently for longer periods is individual. (And yes, AP style tends to respect developmental readiness/biology versus forcing the child to conform to the (socially derived) goal of STTN.)

There are always exceptions to what seems to be the rule. My friend's son has slept through the night (except in illness/teething) since he was 4 months old. At nearly 3yo he continues to nurse on cue and sleep next to his mom in the family bed. My own DS wakes frequently and has vociferously resisted all gentle night weaning attempts. His sleep has improved tremendously since he was an infant, and he even STTN a few times, with no changes in my level of responsiveness. My sister's friend's DS was formula fed and not raised AP at all and they struggle with sleep. Don't know if they tried CIO, but certainly that method does not work for everyone.

Info from McKenna and other sleep researchers (like those quoted in The No Cry Sleep Solution books) indicates that night waking in young children is a biological norm. Sometimes efforts to work against nature succeed, sometimes they don't. Since most parents in the US are not AP and most parents struggle with sleep issues, it doesn't follow that AP is itself the problem.


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## Organicavocado (Mar 15, 2006)

Im not sure that waking multiple times a night constitutes as a poor sleeper at my LOs age (also 3/08). I'm still tending to think that night waking is a natural response. He slept 10-12 hours until recently, when it's shortened to 8-9 and he has been more tantrum-ey but I think its more the age than sleep, as even when he has a random long "restful" night he is still cranky, even after his nap, etc. He sleeps longer and possibly deeper if he is away from me (when I get touched out I get him down then move him to the playpen for the first few hours) but I don't really think this is "better" sleep.

He goes down when he wants to, he sleeps as long as he wants to, he wakes up when he wants to. I'm annoyed at being grabbed at every hour but I think thats my issue, not his.


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## phrogger (Oct 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KailuaMamatoMaya* 
I'm the execption to your theory - we coslept, breastfed and NEVER CIO with dd - she slept well as a baby (minimal wake ups to nurse and fall back asleep quickly), great in her own bed as a toddler and can go to bed alone and sleep all night at 4 1/2 and has been doing it for over a year.

I really thing sleep issues are personality related and not an issue of CIO vs. AP in my observation of parents and children. If your kid is laid back and naturally mellow - sleep can come easier, other personalities have more difficulty with it - not a reflection of good or bad parenting in any way










I haven't read all the responses, but this is simliar to my oldest, although he was sleeping really well all on his own at 12 months. My second son was even sooner. My step son however never co slept, didn't bf, did CIO and STILL sleeps like crap at 9 years old. I think it is SO individual, so my best argument for my husband to co sleep and bf all night long is I actually sleep better. I can roll over and feed him. Even if he is up all night nursing, I still get some sleep.


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## NaturalMindedMomma (Feb 5, 2007)

Hmmmm..

Not sure, I think it depends on a lot of factors.

Traumatic events in the childs life, the childs personality, as well as the sleep routine.

My 2 year old has been through some trauma this year and her sleep habit have changed. She used to sleep in a crib, she was NOT a good sleeper in the beginning, when I switched her to formula and put her in a crib and put her on her tummy she slept much better. Then the formula started bothering her and we learned she had true milk/soy allergies. When we got her on the right formula, she slept better still. I did rock occasionally but sometimes I would let her whimper or whine for a few minutes, but never a full cry unless I was angry or frustrated and needed a mommy time out.

After formula (11 months), she slept in her crib if given a cuppy to fall asleep with or if rocked.

By 18 months, she was waking A LOT for the cup in the middle of the night. I weaned her from it all together. It took two days of crying at night before bed ( i would go into her room and soothe her but not pick her up) and then she was weaned. At night I would put her in the crib with books and she would fall asleep reading. AWESOME! Well then some important people left her and then came back and then left again and well, disrupted the whole routine. She is now on my floor in my room on a dora pull out bed/couch with cuppy. She is weaning off day naps and sometimes naps later in the day then is up VERY late. We really need to get a bed time routine down again, but I am waiting until the new babe is a bit older and the 2 year old adjusts.

As for my new DD, She is nursed and bedshares. She sleeps pretty well, but had moments, I mean she is barely 6 weeks!

I decided that we will take it as it goes. I think at about 4 months I am going to try to get her to sleep on her own surface and put the girls in their own room when the baby is 1.

We will see how it goes.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

So I haven't read the whole thread, but it looks like some people have touched on how some people choose to do some AP things because of how poorly their kids sleep or whatever? That's me. I was bound and determined to not co-sleep. I'd breastfeed. I'd hold that baby as much as she wanted (though I assumed it wouldn't be less than it was) but no co-sleeping for me.

Then she came into my life, and while I didn't plan to co-sleep, she most certainly did. We slept together because it was the only way for me to get any sleep what so ever. If she'd slept even slightly OK, I would never have thought to co-sleep.

So I think there is a relationship between bad sleeping and co-sleeping, but the cause and effect aren't what you think they are, IMO.


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## dmpmercury (Mar 31, 2008)

I think that total sleep isn't dependent on parenting type at all. Ferber actually revised his sleep needs charts recently and the average total sleep a baby needs and it is a lot less than previous thought so I think most kids get enough sleep and the ones that don't probably have medical issues. I think a lot of the sleep books out there over estimated the total sleep that many babies need.

I went to a hospital moms group in my area that truly had a mix of all types of parents with all types of arrangements. Some were really hardcore AP parents others were parents who did CIO and formula fed and I found that most parents besides a few lucky ones were constantly asking the instructor for advice on sleep all the way through and the group went to age 2.

Some sleep issues were minor and just parents expecting a baby to sleep through the night with no wakings really early and wondering why it wasn't happening and others had really bad nights. Some tried CIO for a few nights and it didn't work. Some did have it work very sucessfully in 3 or 4 nights. Some tried babywise and it didn't work. There were all types through the years. The instructor said that she saw moms who used babywise with obvously hungry babies walking around trying to calm them down. There were cosleeping nursing babies who slept through the night and bottle fed babies in cribs down the hall who woke frequently. There were parents who didn't want to co sleep but ended up doing it because baby insisted and there would be no sleep otherwise.

Co sleeping and nursing is actually the norm and is practiced in many cultures through out the globe. No one wonders when a baby is sleeping through the night in many places. Breastmilk is digested fast and the frequent rousings in a young infant help protect it. They are in light sleep periods a lot more often than adult and it is for a reason. They are meant to eat in the night. SIDS deaths are unheard of in many places where co sleeping is the norm. Our species would of never survived if cave dwellers put there babies in a different part of the cave and we haven't evolved too much from that yet.

Easy going babies who are formula fed for whatever reason and do not co sleep probably do sleep a lot longer and learn to fall asleep on their own faster and sleep through the night without needing help through their night rousings faster than a breastfed baby who co sleeps but that doesn't mean that they are sleeping better or how a baby should be sleeping. Co sleeping babies are not sleep deprived.

Sometimes I think things would of been so much easier if I didn't start out co sleeping with my son and breastfeed him so often but he insisted upon it. I'm working on gentle sleep training that doesn't involve CIO and it going slower than I like. I co sleep with my dd and held her for naps and she fell alseep breastfeeding all the time and she was a much better sleeper than my son. With him I tried harder to get to him to sleep a variety of ways not just breastfeeding and I worked on napping indepently harder yet he wakes way more frequently than she did. He doesn't fall asleep breastfeeding at night he goes to sleep on his own in a crib. If he wakes and I know he isn't hungry I get him to sleep by patting or talking to him not just with breastfeeding. My dd breastfed to sleep at his age and co slept all night yet and if she woke I always breastfed and she woke much less. He just a different kid and a much lighter sleeper. He get less total sleep than she did but I think he needs less total sleep. He was more of a high needs baby and she wasn't. It had nothing to do with how I parented.


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## sunshadow (May 17, 2009)

We never planned on co-sleeping, but we did because our child was a bad sleeper. She wasn't a bad sleeper because we co-slept. And now, at 2, she is a great sleeper. I've known families that cry it out and their child doesn't have a good association with sleep for a very long time and they have sleep issues for much longer. Example, one family I know never co-slept and did the CIO thing and at 3 they had to sleep on the floor in her room just to get her to sleep. In the end I think it's really the child's temperment.


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## editornj (Jan 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *terrainthailand* 
For me though, the real point is this, even if it were true (and I'm not saying it is) that AP practices contribute to crappy sleeping, then what? I'm sure you aren't going to practice CIO! Some children clearly need parenting during the night, are we going to deny them that?

You're absolutely right. But I just wonder if there is another way? I haven't read Happiest Baby on the Block thoroughly, and I'm not sure how MDC feels about it, but it seems that having different methods of soothing my baby might have helped. The burden of nursing every 45 minutes always fell to me, for more than a year, and I got myself in a very ugly and scary situation with PPD and sleep deprivation. I'm still trying to pull out of it.

I wonder if there is a way to read your baby and not always offer the boob at every peep, like I did. Maybe early on I could have tried bouncing or patting. I didn't try stuff like that until we were a several months in and I was already burning out.

On the other hand, knowing DS, he probably wouldn't have accepted anything but the boob. No way for me to know now. Either he was/is super high needs, or I "trained" him to only sleep when XYZ conditions were met and a nipple was in his mouth.

ETA: Even though I almost didn't survive this year+ with PPD and lack of sleep (arguably the late-onset PPD was brought on by too little sleep), I still wouldn't go back and let my child CIO. Nor will I attempt it with my new baby. Isn't a mother's love amazing?


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

Quote:

You're absolutely right. But I just wonder if there is another way?
Looking back, I can think of several things I should have done but at the time, I was just trying to get by. I was too tired to really think and too afraid of things getting worse.

First, I should have begun not to put my baby on a schedule, but to have some kind of predictable rhythm to our days - from the very beginning.

I should have always done the same things before naps and bedtimes as soon as my daughter started to show some signs of what HER good day looked like.

I should have waited to see if she was really AWAKE before I started shush, rocking, patting, feeding, etc to get her back to sleep. Often, she wasn't even awake, she was just complaining, getting to a lighter part of her sleep cycle, and trying to settle herself back down. I, in my sleep deprived panic, would think - I better grab her now before she's fully awake or I'll never get her back to sleep.

She was a cruddy sleeper and that was probably just GOING to happen, no matter what, but looking back there are things I could have done to make our lives easier.

It also took me forever to REALLY get that a good night follows a good day - FOR MY CHILD (I know some kids can go with the flow and everyone can do their own thing and the kid just goes along with it, but not mine), she really would have done well with a much more predictable day with bedtime and nap routines (not long ones, but clear signals that said...next up, sleep, so get ready) and that kind of thing.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I've done the same thing with all 3 of my kids. My first didn't sleep through the night until age 4. My second did before a year, and my 3 month old sleeps 12 hours at night.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

I really want to know why a child STTN is such a huge badge of honor. Really, so what if kids dont sleep through the night until later in life.

They are NOT supposed to. So um... how is it a bad thing that they dont?

AP doesnt create bad sleepers, but AP parents are just responsive to their kid's needs which while hard is best for them.

I have had one amazing sleeper and one who is the poster child for bad sleepers. We do what our children need and are in no hurry to start comparing notes with people who CIO for whose kids sleep longer or better because it isnt a priority for us. Having happy, healthy, and confident kids who dont throw up on themselves after crying is.


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## lurve (May 5, 2006)

honestly of the five AP mamas in my mama's group, I am the only one with a crappy sleeper. all the others sleep through the night and can even spend nights at grandparents with no problems. my DD is THE crappy sleeper but I can only imagine how much worse she would be if i let her CIO. she is a sensitive child and i have a feeling if i did CIO it would really psychologically screw her up for life. seriously.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

Quote:

I really want to know why a child STTN is such a huge badge of honor. Really, so what if kids dont sleep through the night until later in life.

They are NOT supposed to. So um... how is it a bad thing that they dont?
This is the kind of thinking that can be so hurtful to someone who is really suffering with a bad sleeper (I came here many times and asked for suggestions and while I got plenty of suggestions and hugs and sympathy, I also got a large number of "just suck it up, that's what kids do" type replies that were not helpful). It's not about "bragging rights" of having your kid STTN, it's about your own need for sleep. It's a bad thing when kids don't sleep through the night if the parent(s) is on the edge of exhaustion and falling apart. IT IS OK TO NEED SLEEP. IT IS OK TO BE DISSATISFIED WITH HOW YOUR CHILD IS SLEEPING. Sleep deprevation is torture for a reason. Sleep is a need as basic as food, it's not a luxury.

I guess maybe when people say oh, kids aren't supposed to sleep through the night, it won't last forever...maybe they have in mind a more normal two or three times a night and back to sleep thing and not the desperate soul crushing (yes, it's that bad) results of years never having two consecutive hours of sleep. It's horrible!

I just want to repeat that I am not in favor of CIO and I do not think that responsive, attentive, attached parenting makes for poor sleepers, I just don't think there's anything within the AP model that really addresses those kids who are ROTTEN sleepers. I also think that parents can sometimes, through their well meaning efforts to be responsive, make things worse. I gave some examples further back of how I didn't help my own situation and how I'd do things differently next time (and there almost certainly will not be a next time).


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

But why is it not helpful? Once I accepted that sleep was not a right I was entitled to it really helped my perspective. I know what no sleep is like. My eldest only slept for about 5 hours in a 24 hour period (and only 3 of those while I was trying to sleep, plus he woke to nurse once or twice). That lasted for THREE YEARS! Realizing that some kids just don't sleep and that I HAD to suck it up really made me let go and accept that this is where we were at this point in life. What choice did I have? I couldn't MAKE him sleep, so it was MY perspective that had to change if I was going to keep my sanity!

Just a different way to look at it


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## pampered_mom (Mar 27, 2006)

My experience with dd has been a bit different than with ds. With dd our night-time parenting was very much AP while with ds it was very much the mainstream. Ds is a lot more laid back and has had some sleep issues from the start (which routine has helped with quite a bit now that he's older, but it certainly hasn't solved things) while dd is a lot more spirited/high needs (and is a far better napper than ds ever was). The thing that I keep coming back to with dd, though, is what would have happened if we hadn't chosen the AP path? I suspect that it's likely things would have been *worse* not better. There's really no way of knowing what would have been.


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## krystyn33 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole* 
This is the kind of thinking that can be so hurtful to someone who is really suffering with a bad sleeper (I came here many times and asked for suggestions and while I got plenty of suggestions and hugs and sympathy, I also got a large number of "just suck it up, that's what kids do" type replies that were not helpful). It's not about "bragging rights" of having your kid STTN, it's about your own need for sleep. It's a bad thing when kids don't sleep through the night if the parent(s) is on the edge of exhaustion and falling apart.

I think the underlying problem is the lack of support for those of us parenting the lousy sleepers (and boy am I one--have been for over 2.5 years now). Yes, getting enough rest to function is important--essential to being the mothers we want to be. But while we are not getting enough restorative sleep during the night, what stands in the way of getting much needed rest during the day? Need to work in & outside the home. Lack of family/community to lessen the work load so we can nap ourselves.

For the first year and a half I was unable to work or make any commitments outside my child rearing and household responsibilities. And during really bad sleep times I struggled with even the most basic tasks. I simply could not function at the same level as I did prior to DS's birth because of chronic sleep deprivation. Frankly, that in itself was not the issue; the stress and pressure to do more and lacking help (grandparents, siblings, cousins, even friends) to take the pressure off are the real cause of the problem. Young children not sleeping well at night is normal for our species. Social isolation is not. And in the US the culture has such an emphasis on individuality and self-sufficiency that many of us feel like failures for asking for help--for not being able to do it all on our own. No one says, "Oh, you have a little one--probably not getting much sleep are you? Let's see what we can do to make things easier for you during this time." Instead it is "Did you get your child to STTN yet? What tricks did you use?"


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## Zimbah (Feb 22, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *krystyn33* 
I think the underlying problem is the lack of support for those of us parenting the lousy sleepers (and boy am I one--have been for over 2.5 years now). Yes, getting enough rest to function is important--essential to being the mothers we want to be. But while we are not getting enough restorative sleep during the night, what stands in the way of getting much needed rest during the day? Need to work in & outside the home. Lack of family/community to lessen the work load so we can nap ourselves.

I agree this is part of it - a big part of it. But even though I'm currently in a situation where I DO often have help during the day, I would still really, really like to be sleeping better at night. I often don't go to bed when DD does, even though that would help, because I need time away from her for my own sanity. I can't be either with her, or asleep (or both), I need a bit of space!


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole* 
This is the kind of thinking that can be so hurtful to someone who is really suffering with a bad sleeper (I came here many times and asked for suggestions and while I got plenty of suggestions and hugs and sympathy, I also got a large number of "just suck it up, that's what kids do" type replies that were not helpful). It's not about "bragging rights" of having your kid STTN, it's about your own need for sleep. It's a bad thing when kids don't sleep through the night if the parent(s) is on the edge of exhaustion and falling apart. IT IS OK TO NEED SLEEP. IT IS OK TO BE DISSATISFIED WITH HOW YOUR CHILD IS SLEEPING. Sleep deprevation is torture for a reason. Sleep is a need as basic as food, it's not a luxury.

I guess maybe when people say oh, kids aren't supposed to sleep through the night, it won't last forever...maybe they have in mind a more normal two or three times a night and back to sleep thing and not the desperate soul crushing (yes, it's that bad) results of years never having two consecutive hours of sleep. It's horrible!

I just want to repeat that I am not in favor of CIO and I do not think that responsive, attentive, attached parenting makes for poor sleepers, I just don't think there's anything within the AP model that really addresses those kids who are ROTTEN sleepers. I also think that parents can sometimes, through their well meaning efforts to be responsive, make things worse. I gave some examples further back of how I didn't help my own situation and how I'd do things differently next time (and there almost certainly will not be a next time).

Actually I am the mother of a child who is a horrible sleeper. I understand dealing with post partum depression and a child who would only sleep in your arms for the first few months of life and you getting less than 3 hours of sleep in a week.

Once I understood that this was "normal" I felt better. I have two kids under three I havent had a good night sleep since I was pregnant with my first... but I know that it will end and that it is ok.

The AP Model of care says very simply that all kids are different and we have to meet their needs, there doesnt need to be a specific "how to" on training kids to sleep because they will learn eventually. If we believe that there should be it is our expectation, not necessarily a reality.


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## EMS (Dec 9, 2006)

Just saw this post, and I wanted to say that I think you should do what you need to allow you to get some sleep. All babies and all families are different. Family beds work for some and not for others. Like PP, I too suffered from PPD, and the only thing that ameliorated it was finally managing to get some sleep.
I just don't think it is as black and white as CIO or holding your baby every minute of every day.


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## Thisbirdwillfly (May 10, 2009)

Quote:

But why is it not helpful? Once I accepted that sleep was not a right I was entitled to it really helped my perspective...What choice did I have? I couldn't MAKE him sleep, so it was MY perspective that had to change if I was going to keep my sanity!
The fact is that some of us cannot simply choose to keep our sanity by changing our perspective. Without solid blocks of sleep, my depression spirals out of control. I know that's not the case with everyone. I totally get that.

But I do not think that those who can adapt really do get what it is like for those of us who cannot adapt. I need X amount of hours of sleep in a row to keep myself functional. Not happy, not well rested but just functional.

I used to feel guilty about it, as if I just was not tough enough but looking back at it I feel sorry for my younger self. We're not all the same and that's okay.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

I dont believe that one should feel guilty about needing more sleep, but I also dont believe that one should expect a magic button, or training, etc. that can help with that. I think that part of having a child is understanding that there will be some sacrifices that go along with it. For some of us (not all of us but at least for me) one of those sacrifices was sleep. It is not fun but my children are sleeping better than than 2 year ago, and I know that 2 years from now it will be even better.

I know that I personally cannot handle more sleeplessness for a while, so we are not having more kids because I cannot mentally and physically handle it. I work full time and need rest to work so that we can pay our bills.

It has not been an easy few years but I know that it will end and that my children need me. Their needs right now do come before mine and that is ok.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole* 
Looking back, I can think of several things I should have done but at the time, I was just trying to get by. I was too tired to really think and too afraid of things getting worse.

First, I should have begun not to put my baby on a schedule, but to have some kind of predictable rhythm to our days - from the very beginning.

I should have always done the same things before naps and bedtimes as soon as my daughter started to show some signs of what HER good day looked like.

I should have waited to see if she was really AWAKE before I started shush, rocking, patting, feeding, etc to get her back to sleep. Often, she wasn't even awake, she was just complaining, getting to a lighter part of her sleep cycle, and trying to settle herself back down. I, in my sleep deprived panic, would think - I better grab her now before she's fully awake or I'll never get her back to sleep.

She was a cruddy sleeper and that was probably just GOING to happen, no matter what, but looking back there are things I could have done to make our lives easier.

It also took me forever to REALLY get that a good night follows a good day - FOR MY CHILD (I know some kids can go with the flow and everyone can do their own thing and the kid just goes along with it, but not mine), she really would have done well with a much more predictable day with bedtime and nap routines (not long ones, but clear signals that said...next up, sleep, so get ready) and that kind of thing.

I totally agree with all of this. I had a loose schedule with DD, built around when she typically wanted to nurse and it really helped me have good days and nights.

DD actually loved her crib and was so happy when we moved her in there, I don't think she liked her co-sleeper thing. She was an easy peaceful baby and I know we were lucky in that. She did wake up through the night, but it was always pretty bearable and since she was a tiny baby I always just got up and nursed her if she was hungry. But I also did feel like I could tell the difference between a hungry cry and a restless cry and a gassy cry...so I was never a boob-first soother. (I also only BF 6 months before I lost my milk--so a lot less long than most people on these boards) And she was always easy to soothe in a few minutes, either with a backrub or cuddle or nursing. But she did wake several times a night when she was an infant (again, just normal) and then once or twice a night as a toddler. I did/do usually go in her room to make sure everything is ok, give her a hug, adjust her covers, etc. That works.

I tried to just follow her cues for the most part. She's 4 now, she still wakes up sometimes--I think all kids do, but over all I would say everyone here is getting enough sleep and other than when she was teething, it's never been an issue.

Teething was rough because it was the only time she was truly difficult to soothe. But that passed.

I totally understand your wanting to do things slightly differently this time around. Chalk it up to your mama experience and now that you have more confidence try to figure out what works best for your family and your new baby. Congratulations!


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## MichelleAnnette (Aug 20, 2006)

I think some babies sleep better than others for unknown reasons. Others have issues that seem to be linked to parenting. In my observations, night terrors are linked to CIO. Babies who wake constantly or can't fall asleep with ANY other noise were sort of "taught" to be like that. My ds starting really sleeping through the night about his second birthday. I got pregnant when he was 18 months old and did not have milk by his second birthday. Now that ds is 2 years old, I still nurse him to sleep. If he nurses for say an hour and does not fall asleep, I do not let him nurse any more (because it starts to annoy me) and explain that he can have milk in the morning. He cries but understands and snuggles up with me to go to sleep.

As an infant, he nursed whenever he wanted to and did wake a lot at night. It never made me exhausted. I perhaps could have encouraged more day time nursing but that may not have worked. He has always slept a normal number of hours per day for his age, although I know kids who sleep more. I have read that formula fed babies sleep more hours in a day. He does not generally have temper tantrums.

I know mothers with two children who breastfed both and said one slept way longer at night than the other. They don't know why.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MichelleAnnette* 
Babies who wake constantly or can't fall asleep with ANY other noise were sort of "taught" to be like that.

I've found that even this isn't so. With #1, I thought the reason she could sleep regardless of any kind of noise is because she always slept in the sling. Then #2 came along, and she will only sleep at home, in her bed, in complete silence. I started her out in the sling too, but she's really just more sensitive to noise and movement and doesn't like it, so I went with what worked.

They're all different. I did everything the same with the new one and she is still very different.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I've found that even this isn't so. With #1, I thought the reason she could sleep regardless of any kind of noise is because she always slept in the sling. Then #2 came along, and she will only sleep at home, in her bed, in complete silence. I started her out in the sling too, but she's really just more sensitive to noise and movement and doesn't like it, so I went with what worked.

They're all different. I did everything the same with the new one and she is still very different.

Same with mine, Kate who is my horrible sleeper will sleep through anything... Calvin doesnt.

I think part of the zen of parenting is accepting that we cannot just label our kids (or anyone else's) like this or assign traits based on what we think is right. We just do what we can... and roll with the punches.


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

When I had Tobias I was all set to cosleep and child led wean and follow my baby's lead. He was a "horrible sleeper". He never ever slept longer than 3 hours in a stretch until he was 18 months old. Not during the day, not during the night. And three hours wasn't how long he usually slept either. It was usually an hour at a time, but I would sometimes get two or even three hours (usually when I was wearing him).

So I followed his needs. I wore him constantly. I slept beside him. I nursed him on demand. I didn't expect him to sleep through the night or even sleep by himself. I didn't expect that he could go without the food and yes, comfort (which is equally important IMO) of the breast.

I was a single Mom. It was all me all the time. And it was really hard sometimes because I was also a full time student and work at home Mom. I was told by more than one person that I was making him need those things. That I was (in one ever-so-helpful family members words) "Creating a monster".

He's 3 now. He sleeps through the night almost every night. He does not ever (barring illness) nurse at night. He will fall asleep and sleep by himself for naps (which he still needs and takes... some of them three or more hours long, longer than he slept at all as a little baby







). I didn't force him to night wean, I didn't ever CIO. He just did it.

Fast forward to Linus. He was born in January and came into the world willing to sleep a five hour stretch at night. He has gone to bed and slept for 10-12 hours with maybe 1-3 feeds in there almost right from the beginning, he still does. He naps during the day, and as a small baby preferred that nap to be on someone in the carrier. He now is starting to prefer sleeping in the big bed (we don't even own a crib or pack n play, so he's just in the bed we share) by himself for naps.

He sleeps right next to me and could nurse all night if he wanted to. He doesn't. It just is what it is. I'm a bigger believer than ever that good or bad sleepers are by and large not made, but rather just born. You take what you get and then you have to learn to live with it as best as you possibly can.


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## jazzybaby9 (Feb 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom* 
I was a CIO baby. I'm still afraid of the dark, and really cannot sleep alone in a house with no one else there. I never stayed in bed as a child, I wandered around the house in the middle of the night, was always tired at school, and had terrible nightmares.









:

Also, I believe babies who co-sleep naturally wake more when they're closer to mom because they can 1) feel her breathing, moving, etc 2) smell her milk and wake to eat 3) wake for reassurance and comfort. I believe these babies have more restful sleep as adults because they have been satisfied during the dependence stage and not left in the dark, alone.

IMO, babies who crib-sleep and/or cry it out have given up on trying to communicate their needs during the night because they have either been let down too often or ignore their needs (be it hunger or comfort)...and sleep harder than infants who still wake to meet their natural needs during the night. But again, this is just my personal opinion.

It is normal for a baby to wake at night to breastfeed. I believe I read a few articles in Mothering about this very thing...maybe it was some other source, not sure. Every LO is different, though.

Primal Health or Continuum Concept are two books that helped me with this.

ALSO, dd sleeps thru the night when staying with other family members, but only wakes with me to nurse. I also think I may rise too quickly to stick a boob in her mouth when really she's only stirring or fussing in her sleep, but not really AWAKE.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

I haven't read the responses, but here's my experience.

I co-slept with both my boys from birth and am still nursing both of them at 13 and 33 months. I night-weaned my oldest when he was about 14-15 months old during my pregnancy. Oldest had set naptimes for the first 18 months or so, after that we didn't have any set nap or bed times. DS2 never had any set nap/bedtime at all.

DS1 was a crappy sleeper and a very high-needs baby. We walked the halls with him, had to pin him down to get him to sleep, and I don't remember much of the first 6 months of his life because my sleep-deprived brain couldn't function enough to form coherent memories







. He is now almost three, asks to takes naps when he is tired (!??!), and he will curl up on the couch with some covers and go to sleep if he's tired before I head to bed. Otherwise he goes with me and falls asleep while I tell him a story and nurse his younger brother. I think his good attitude about sleep now is due to the fact that we didn't make it an awful time of crying, seperation, and power struggles when he was younger. It's just sleep- it's what you do when your body is tired. As opposed to bedtime being the time when you have to go be by yourself in the dark no matter how sad or angry or bored or awake or scared you are.

DS2 slept through the night since day one (I'm sure he nursed while we were both sleeping, but neither of us woke up). He's 13 months old now and I have had to get out of bed with him at night exactly *once*. Luck plays a huuuuge role.


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## NaturalMindedMomma (Feb 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nitenicole* 
this is the kind of thinking that can be so hurtful to someone who is really suffering with a bad sleeper (i came here many times and asked for suggestions and while i got plenty of suggestions and hugs and sympathy, i also got a large number of "just suck it up, that's what kids do" type replies that were not helpful). It's not about "bragging rights" of having your kid sttn, it's about your own need for sleep. It's a bad thing when kids don't sleep through the night if the parent(s) is on the edge of exhaustion and falling apart. It is ok to need sleep. It is ok to be dissatisfied with how your child is sleeping. Sleep deprevation is torture for a reason. Sleep is a need as basic as food, it's not a luxury.

I guess maybe when people say oh, kids aren't supposed to sleep through the night, it won't last forever...maybe they have in mind a more normal two or three times a night and back to sleep thing and not the desperate soul crushing (yes, it's that bad) results of years never having two consecutive hours of sleep. It's horrible!

I just want to repeat that i am not in favor of cio and i do not think that responsive, attentive, attached parenting makes for poor sleepers, i just don't think there's anything within the ap model that really addresses those kids who are rotten sleepers. I also think that parents can sometimes, through their well meaning efforts to be responsive, make things worse. I gave some examples further back of how i didn't help my own situation and how i'd do things differently next time (and there almost certainly will not be a next time).

yes yes yes..


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## Thisbirdwillfly (May 10, 2009)

Quote:

I think that part of having a child is understanding that there will be some sacrifices that go along with it.
I did understand that. I think it's a bit mean-spirited to imply that those of us who found parts of parenting to be more difficult than we had ever imagined went into it thinking there would be no sacrifices or there would be magic involved in taking care of the baby.

Quote:

Their needs right now do come before mine and that is ok...
I could not put his needs before mine and stay sane. Finally, I put my needs first so that I could take care of my son and that is okay.


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## NaturalMindedMomma (Feb 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FreeRangeMama* 
But why is it not helpful? Once I accepted that sleep was not a right I was entitled to it really helped my perspective. I know what no sleep is like. My eldest only slept for about 5 hours in a 24 hour period (and only 3 of those while I was trying to sleep, plus he woke to nurse once or twice). That lasted for THREE YEARS! Realizing that some kids just don't sleep and that I HAD to suck it up really made me let go and accept that this is where we were at this point in life. What choice did I have? I couldn't MAKE him sleep, so it was MY perspective that had to change if I was going to keep my sanity!

Just a different way to look at it









Because sometimes when we have no good advice to offer a mama, some sympathy is always nice.

Also, while you may be able to function while not getting sleep, just by telling yourself to suck it up and accept it, another person may not.

Sympathy is always nice... sleep may not be a right, but it is necessary for health and for most, sanity...


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## junie (Jan 9, 2007)

Okay, I'll start by saying I haven't read all the responses, so I have no idea if this has been mentioned yet or not, but I remember reading a few years ago, while I was pregnant with my daughter I believe, that some parents who have used CIO, or who at least do not co-slept, report that there children STTN when, in fact, this is not true. It's not that these parents are lying either, but that they have become desensitized to their child's cry or night wakings (as not all night wakings involve crying). I can't remember where I read this, I'm thinking it was either _the Baby book_ by Dr. Sears or _Three in a Bed_ by Deborah Jackson.

Anyway, apparently there was a study done where researchers discovered that parents who do not co-sleep will often stop waking in response to a child's cry (by not co-sleep I believe they meant that the baby also slept in a different room), and in fact guests that stay overnight at a young babies house will often report that they heard the child crying in the night, when the parents heard nothing at all. So this is another possible explanation for why CIO parents seem to have more success. Although I by NO means think that ALL parents who use CIO or do not co-sleep become desensitized to a baby's cry, it's more likely to happen in this group, therefore this group is more likely to report babies STTN.


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## joanq (Oct 27, 2005)

Well, another "success" story here.

We never CIO. We cosleep/slept.

My son is now 4. He goes to bed in his own bed/room, it takes about 5-10 minutes (we still lie with him because otherwise he just gets up, but it only is a few minutes and it doesn't bother us). Bedtime is non-traumatic. He sleeps from about 8:30 pm to 8:00 or 8:30 am. He sometimes still wakes once to pee or because of a dream or whatever and at that point will usually come climb in bed with us. Usually this happens around 4 am and is just fine with us. Most of the time I wake just enough to be aware he is there, then he is back to sleep instantly.

This has been our pattern for the last year, unless he is sick or something. He was always a good sleeper as a baby though. He once crawled around at a party, to the middle of the living room floor and fell asleep in the midst of all the hubbub. All the other moms acted like I had performed a magic trick, but that was just the way he was. He was also a child who would fall asleep in the car and I could take him out and carry him around in the store and he would nap, or I could carry him in and put him in bed and he'd continue to sleep. As a baby he would briefly wake, bf and sleep instantly. Night weaning when he was older took 3 nights.

I think most of it is personality/inborn and their natural personality could be worked with or made worse by our parenting choices. In our case he is sensitive and would never have done well with CIO/being left alone etc.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

We are also a success story, with 4 kids and no CIO. My kids go to sleep when they are tired. My 3rd kid, he would wake up several times in the middle of the night, up until he was three years old - BUT, b/c he slept with us, and didn't cry or fuss, it was as simple as rolling over so he could latch on and fall back to sleep. I may have been tired sometimes, but nothing extreme b/c I didn't have to get up at all, or console an upset baby/child. A few seconds here and there didn't make me miss out on sleep. Often he would nurse w/o me even realizing it for a while.

Anyway, AP doesn't have to = bad sleepers. I think there are 'bad' sleepers no matter your parenting approach.

Last night, I realized the 2.5 yr old wasn't around and went looking for him. Where was he? upstairs, in his own bed (he co-sleeps with us about half the time - his choice) he was even covered up with his blanky. He knew he was tired, and knew were to go to sleep. Now, it's not always that easy with every kid, but more often than not, my kid (ages 2, 4, 6, and 8) do just go up to bed when they are tired. the older one's tend to actually say goodnight, unlike my youngest last night







but it's not a fight, or struggle -- and they aren't up multiple times throughout the night or anything.

My first slept thru through the night at a very young age (10 wks I believe) and with the other 3 it varied. But we have never had to be anti-AP or anything, and they are now what I would call "good" sleepers.


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## hempmama (Dec 16, 2004)

I have noticed the same thing, OP. A lot of kids aren't getting enough sleep. An extra large number of them seem to be AP. I think it's cultural as much as anything- people who don't like schedules, want to go with the flow are more likely to be AP, people with hard babies about sleep (who were never going to be easy sleepers) are more likely to co-sleep. But whatever it is, I know a lot of hippy preschool aged kids who need more sleep, way more than the CIO crowd. And I do think there is a middle ground. If you think your baby is waking up more because they are next to you- what about a toddler bed in your room? Or is he a very light sleeper? Maybe his own room? Is he nightweaned? Jay Gordon has a gentle method, right? What about working really hard to soothe him in his own bed? Maybe avoiding rocking, but laying in the bed with him? But before all of these I would probably try to work really hard on a routine for a couple weeks. Same bedtime, same naptime. See if you can move bedtime earlier by 15 minutes a night.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hempmama* 
I have noticed the same thing, OP. A lot of kids aren't getting enough sleep.

How do you judge if someone elses' kid isn't getting enough sleep? My kids both sleep less than "they" say they should, but both are great and healthy.

-Angela


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## eloise24 (Nov 17, 2005)

Haven't read every single post . . . I don't have any answers for you OP but I see the same trend.

What I do find ironic is how "AP parents" hate to be judged (how many threads are there about this every day) and yet as I skimmed all these posts, the same comment is said over and over assuming that parents who have babies who STTN are ignoring them or sleeping through their crying.

Um, my DD is STTN and it's not because we ignored her. It's because we gently and patiently, step by step over MANY months taught her how to go back to sleep without needing a midnight party with parents. Even though our rooms are right next to each other, I listen to a baby monitor. She stirs in her sleep and sometimes even talks in her sleep but doesn't spend time crying all night. And it's not because she's ignored. It's because sleep, like many other parenting things, is something that babies & children need help with and need to be gently taught.

So to answer the original issue, I don't think AP babies/kids HAVE to be bad sleepers, there are ways to gently and attach-ed-ly (yeah I know that's not a word) teach them to sleep without the boob in their mouth all night.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eloise24* 
It's because sleep, like many other parenting things, is something that babies & children need help with and need to be gently taught.

So to answer the original issue, I don't think AP babies/kids HAVE to be bad sleepers, there are ways to gently and attach-ed-ly (yeah I know that's not a word) teach them to sleep without the boob in their mouth all night.

I disagree. My kids did not have to be "taught" to sleep any more than they were "taught" to breathe or eat or walk.

And if mom can sleep with a boob in a babe's mouth- go with it!

-Angela


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## hempmama (Dec 16, 2004)

I judge whether other people's kids are getting enough sleep based on their behavior. I don't know you or your kids or how much sleep they need. I do know the kids in my community, and how frequently they have low coping skills/glazed eyes/short attention spans/low energy. Can't you tell if your kid is tired? I don't think it's that hard to tell if other people's kids are tired.


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## pampered_mom (Mar 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hempmama* 
I judge whether other people's kids are getting enough sleep based on their behavior. I don't know you or your kids or how much sleep they need. I do know the kids in my community, and how frequently they have low coping skills/glazed eyes/short attention spans/low energy. Can't you tell if your kid is tired? I don't think it's that hard to tell if other people's kids are tired.

Any of the things you just described can have other causes - not just lack of sleep. Needs a snack, overstimulated, etc. It's convenient to blame it on sleep, but I don't think that's always the case.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

Quote:

So to answer the original issue, I don't think AP babies/kids HAVE to be bad sleepers, there are ways to gently and attach-ed-ly (yeah I know that's not a word) teach them to sleep without the boob in their mouth all night.
Agreed. I also think there are some kids who will just be good sleepers, no matter what (my niece) and some who just never will.

Quote:

And if mom can sleep with a boob in a babe's mouth- go with it!
Which is fine. I believe if you're alright with your sleep (or lack of) situation, then no one else's opinions matters. But I also believe that it's just fine to say ya know what, I just can't do this anymore. We are looking for other alternatives.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hempmama* 
I judge whether other people's kids are getting enough sleep based on their behavior. I don't know you or your kids or how much sleep they need. I do know the kids in my community, and how frequently they have low coping skills/glazed eyes/short attention spans/low energy. Can't you tell if your kid is tired? I don't think it's that hard to tell if other people's kids are tired.

Sometimes you can.... and sometimes people are stuck on saying "all" people of a given age need X sleep... I didn't as an infant/kid and neither of my kids seem to so far either....

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pampered_mom* 
Any of the things you just described can have other causes - not just lack of sleep. Needs a snack, overstimulated, etc. It's convenient to blame it on sleep, but I don't think that's always the case.

Also true.

-Angela


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## hempmama (Dec 16, 2004)

I don't mean people I run across at the mall. I mean kids I know. Of course if I run across a grumpy kid I have no idea why that kid is grumpy. But I do know some kids well and run into them often enough to have an idea of what's going on if those things are present. Do you all really think you have NO idea what is causing behavior you run across in the real world? I know this board does not extend that sort of courtesy to mainstream behaviors and parents of mainstream moms. I just think some kids I know are tired. Why is that so threatening?

ETA: I didn't say anywhere that any particular kids need any particular number of hours. I have always been saying I know some kids who are clearly not getting enough. What does that have to do with you?


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

Haven't read most of the responses.

Just want to say that of course when you're reading message boards, you're going to hear from people who are looking advice. No one's posting "My kid sleeps great, how about yours? Let's bask in the drowsiness!" threads, people post to get help/get sympathy/vent.

Perhaps you think AP babies are crappy sleepers - but perhaps its because your idea of a crappy sleeper and an AP mom's idea of an average sleeper are the same thing. Perhaps AP families realize that babies wake at night, that babies nurse at night, and are OK with it, accept it and expect it.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_betsy_* 
Perhaps you think AP babies are crappy sleepers - but perhaps its because your idea of a crappy sleeper and an AP mom's idea of an average sleeper are the same thing. Perhaps AP families realize that babies wake at night, that babies nurse at night, and are OK with it, accept it and expect it.











-Angela


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_betsy_* 
Haven't read most of the responses.

Just want to say that of course when you're reading message boards, you're going to hear from people who are looking advice. No one's posting "My kid sleeps great, how about yours? Let's bask in the drowsiness!" threads, people post to get help/get sympathy/vent.

Perhaps you think AP babies are crappy sleepers - but perhaps its because your idea of a crappy sleeper and an AP mom's idea of an average sleeper are the same thing. Perhaps AP families realize that babies wake at night, that babies nurse at night, and are OK with it, accept it and expect it.











I sincerely think that unrealistic expectations is at the root of many of the "problems" that we think kids have with sleep. If someone comes here looking for how to get a 6 month old to sleep more than 5 hours because they believe that it is the way that it is supposed to be, this is obvious. Yes, they are looking for help but this is not something that can be "helped". If a child does it on their own that is wonderful, but most of these "problems" are not really problems with the child, but problems with the expectations that the parents have to begin with. These make us feel like failures, and even more exhausted than we should be... we wonder what we did wrong... why we got the demon night children.

I know because I have personally been there,wondering why all the kids around me are sleeping and I am awake for 5 hours a night with a child who thinks that 3 am is an acceptable time for playing. Coming here was wonderful for me because I realized that it was NOT just my child, that I was wrong and that my child was doing what worked for her...


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

Now, if I could just get DD2 to stop playing for 3 hours in the middle of the night, I'd be MUCH happier with regards to sleep!







:


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_betsy_* 

Perhaps you think AP babies are crappy sleepers - but perhaps its because your idea of a crappy sleeper and an AP mom's idea of an average sleeper are the same thing. *Perhaps AP families realize that babies wake at night, that babies nurse at night, and are OK with it, accept it and expect it.*

yup! This is it.

I also think that if you want to be a parent, you should realize that it may very well mean not getting a full night of sleep for many years. If you go into it having some odd expectation that if you do everything 'right' your baby will be STTN (it's weird to me that there is an abbreviation for this term, I guess it's desired and discussed that frequently) at 3 mos., or 6 mos., or whatever pre-determined acceptable time-frame you have been told or led to believe - I think this is just setting yourself up for labeling your child a "bad sleeper".

Really, even as kids get older, they will wake up in the middle of the night for illness, nightmares, leg cramps, seeing a spider, thirsty, worried, etc. and by the time they are old enough to consistently not ever get up, you will probably still wake up with worry thinking about them, their future, if they are out with friends or getting ready to go off to college and so on. So really, once you are committed to having a baby, you should really kiss all expectations of ever sleeping through the night again, away. That way, if you are blessed with a "good sleeper" it will be completely unexpected and something you can be grateful to have.


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## seriosa (Apr 2, 2009)

eloise24 said:


> Haven't read every single post . . . I don't have any answers for you OP but I see the same trend.
> 
> What I do find ironic is how "AP parents" hate to be judged (how many threads are there about this every day) and yet as I skimmed all these posts, the same comment is said over and over assuming that parents who have babies who STTN are ignoring them or sleeping through their crying.
> 
> ...


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## Zimbah (Feb 22, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
yup! I also think that if you want to be a parent, you should realize that it may very well mean not getting a full night of sleep for many years.

So really, once you are committed to having a baby, you should really kiss all expectations of ever sleeping through the night again, away.

I very much wanted a baby. I knew that babies wake up a lot at night. I fully expected to be tired. None of that previous knowledge helps me when I am utterly exhausted and finding it hard to summon the energy to get dressed, never mind prepare meals and run around after DD. I don't think it's fair to just say people should accept that having a baby will, essentially, make you feel like #@** and you just have to suck it up because you chose to have a baby. I love DD very much but I would also like to get a reasonable amount of sleep - not the same amount as before I had her, but enough to be able to function.


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## SubliminalDarkness (Sep 9, 2009)

I think the problem is the expectation. How long do you sleep at night? Do you sleep completely uninterrupted without ever waking? My DH was breastfed and coslept with his mother. I was formula fed and was CIO-ed into a crib from birth. My DH and I both sleep, if left to our own devices, about 8 hours a night, and we wake up multiple times. Sometimes we need to go to the bathroom, sometimes we need a drink, and sometimes we just need to roll over and reposition.

So why is the expectation that our babies and kids will sleep for 10 hours without ever waking? I think that's ridiculous.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I haven't read anything assuming that ALL babies who STTN are being ignored at night. My second has always STTN and she sleeps in bed with me. Obviously I'm not ignoring her when she wakes up because she is touching me and I'm not a very deep sleeper.

But I know it's true that some parents who say their kids STTN just simply aren't responding, because a neighbor, when my first wasn't STTN, told me to just wear earplugs to bed and that she'd STTN. Obviously her idea of STTN isn't that the baby is STTN. She defines it by whether the parents STTN. So no, of course it isn't the case with all parents, and particularly not with AP parents whose kids STTN, but in the word at large, when parents are telling us their kids STTN, I do think we should take it with a grain of salt. Maybe they are naturally good sleepers, like my second, but maybe they are waking up at night and know no one will take care of them, or maybe they've just given up.


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## Pepper44 (May 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SubliminalDarkness* 
I think the problem is the expectation. How long do you sleep at night? Do you sleep completely uninterrupted without ever waking? My DH was breastfed and coslept with his mother. I was formula fed and was CIO-ed into a crib from birth. My DH and I both sleep, if left to our own devices, about 8 hours a night, and we wake up multiple times. Sometimes we need to go to the bathroom, sometimes we need a drink, and sometimes we just need to roll over and reposition.

So why is the expectation that our babies and kids will sleep for 10 hours without ever waking? I think that's ridiculous.

I agree.

My DD has gone through periods where she has slept horribly and other times she will sleep very well for a month or so.

Sleeping through the night depends on so many factors--personality, the composition of a mother's milk (more nutrient dense, sleep longer), the size of the baby's stomach and speed of metabolism, whether the baby/toddler is over tired, over stimulated, napped or didn't nap for whatever reason, teething, having nightmares, going through an insecure phase, hot, cold, wakes up when they pee or sleeps soundly through peeing, and so many other variables.

I don't think you can just pin it on one parenting style.

I slept in a crib and I was formula fed. My mom told me I didn't sleep through the night for the first time until I was 5 years old. I have vivid memories from childhood of waking up at night alone and being terrified. I still wake up often at night and get up or watch TV for several hours. My dad is the same way, and my DD does that too sometimes. My DH sleeps like a rock, he would sleep through an earthquake.


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## JustAnotherBrick (Feb 19, 2009)

Wow I haven't been on here in a while. I didn't get a chance to read through this entire thread but I wanted to chime in a bit. I used to come on here all the time desperate for some advice because I had a TERRIBLE sleeper. Now, he is a great sleeper, thus the reason why I haven't been on this forum in a while.

I don't think AP creates bad sleepers. Babies come with their own personalities and temperaments. In fact, now that he is sleeping better, I strongly believe that my AP style allowed him to feel comfortable with sleep. (of course, I may just be telling myself that to make up the 18 months of sleepless hell- smile)

My LO just never could sleep on his own. He was very high-needs and nursed every 30 minutes after he was born. He only took 20 minute naps until he turned around 6 months old then he finally started taking longer naps. I had to HOLD him for every single nap - it was impossible to put him down. He would wake up every hour or two EVERY NIGHT until around 18 months old. Now at two, he is taking one 2-3 hour nap a day and sleeps well at night, waking occasionally to check on me or for a glass of water. I do think weaning (he self-weaned two months ago) made a difference, but he still wakes for a drink sometimes. He actually tells me "I'm tired" when he is tired and we'll start his bedtime routine earlier if necessary. Sleep just isn't a battle with him.

My family, who advocated CIO, was shocked to see how well his sleeping habits have improved. Frankly, I didn't do anything different. I just continued with a loving bedtime routine and am here for him every night. My cousin's baby who was CIO'd, however, is now five years old and still wakes at night and tries to crawl into her parents' bed. They are against it so it is still a struggle for them to have her stay in her own bed all night long. I told them that maybe it is just a power struggle and if they allowed her to stay in her bed sometimes, she wouldn't feel the need to wake up. They said they don't want to make it a bad habit. It's funny because she was an AMAZING sleeper when she was a baby. When I babysat her, I could literally just put her down in her crib during naptimes and bedtimes and she would go to sleep without a peep. No comforting, no nothing. But now, it seems like without the "crib" to hold her in, she will venture out.

Good sleepers, bad sleepers. Who knows? I think it's silly that our parenting is judged based on how well our babies sleep. Not all adults STTN! And I really do not see a pattern based on AP and sleep.


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## sunflower.mama (Apr 14, 2008)

I don't have time to read through this whole thread, but wanted to add our experience. We coslept and nursed our son until he was 18 mos, and he was and is a great sleeper. So great I don't talk about it to friends unless asked because it feels like bragging! When he was around 18 mos we were ready to put him to bed instead of nursing him to sleep and I remember telling him I needed to make a phone call and I'd come back to check on him (in his crib where he was used to napping). It worked. I think waiting until he was mentally cognizant to understand that I was telling him I'd be in the other room worked, at least for us. We never had to do CIO with him, or my daughter. She is another story because despite the fact that DH and I WANTED to co-sleep with her, she had none of it. She slept next to us in a pack and play until she was 6 mos or so and then in her crib. But to this day she literally can't fall asleep in bed with us, even if she's sick. On bad nights, (and these happen every few months) she'll wake at night and call for us. We'll pull her into bed thinking maybe we can comfort her to sleep. We all lie there awake for an hour, and then I ask, "Do you want to go back to your bed" and she says yes.
Anyhow - long answer but we are AP and no we don't have bad sleepers. Ours can go 7:30/8 until 7 the next morning. Plus a nap for dd.


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## junie (Jan 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seriosa* 
I know this forum is for advocating co-sleeping, which is a beautiful philosphy, but perhaps not for eveyone. It would be appreciable if people did not automatically consider those who don't co-sleep as heartless unloving parents condemning their babies to lonely abbandonment. You _can_ be attentive and present and nuturing to a baby who is not in your bed. We too just do what works for our families, with love.


Okay, like I said in my previous post, I haven't read the whole thread, but from what I have read, I have NOT seen this sentiment expressed in the slightest. I don't think anyone is suggesting that people who don't co-sleep are "heartless unloving parents condemning their babies to lonely abandonment." I personally mentioned that parents who do not co-sleep are more likely (than parents who co-sleep) to become less sensitized to their child's night wakings, thus will report a child STTN when the reality is that the child is not. This is NOT saying that ALL parents who do not co-sleep become desensitized. Just that you will find MORE desensitized parents in the non-cosleeping group. I don't think that's an unfair statement to make.

I know for me personally, now that my children are no longer in bed with me, I don't always wake up when they do. In fact, my children have gotten up and started throwing up in the middle of the night, and I've slept through the whole thing. Luckily my husband hears them. If I had not co-slept with them as babies, I don't think I would have heard them crying in the night. I know that's just me, but I'm sure there are others like me out there. And if they don't co-sleep, they might be reporting good sleepers, when in fact they simply aren't aware of their child waking up. It's just ONE reason for why co-sleepers can appear to be crappier sleepers than other children.


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## pampered_mom (Mar 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hempmama* 
Do you all really think you have NO idea what is causing behavior you run across in the real world? I know this board does not extend that sort of courtesy to mainstream behaviors and parents of mainstream moms. I just think some kids I know are tired. Why is that so threatening?

I don't think anyone thinks that your ideas or opinions on the matter are threatening. I think it's more the way you say it than anything - like in the first post where you said (emphasis mine):

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hempmama* 
But whatever it is, I *know a lot of hippy preschool aged kids who need more sleep*, way more than the CIO crowd.

I'm also curious as to what you mean in your last post by "extend that sort of courtesy" to folks in the real world. I try not to judge a parent by their child's behavior knowing that it could very well be a number of factors rather than just a singular issue. As for the behavior of other children irl, I would attribute behavior like that to a number of different factors, as I mentioned before, (needing a snack, overstimulated, needing more attention from one parent or another, in an environment that isn't age appropriate, etc) with sleep being one of them. The other issue at play being one's definition/expectation of the situation - what I find abnormal you may not and vice versa.

FTR I also don't think there's anything wrong with setting some boundaries/making some changes in your family life if that's what you need to do for your own health (mental, emotional, physical). OP - Your children need you, but they also need you to be healthy. PPD isn't something I'd want to mess around with - I really liked Amanda's post on her plans for the second time around. Maybe you can start to make some plans now to try and head it off at the pass? What can your husband, family, friends do to help you out? I'd also recommend Amanda's blog in general for the depression issue. Maybe there's something else there that would be helpful too? Perhaps it's an issue you can come at from a number of different sides than just the sleep issue (which may or not be adjustable).


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## Thisbirdwillfly (May 10, 2009)

Quote:

Perhaps AP families realize that babies wake at night, that babies nurse at night, and are OK with it, accept it and expect it...
Oh, good grief. You sound like Tom Cruise talking about Brook Sheilds and post-partum depression. It's just a matter of the "correct" education and attitude.

I knew babies woke up, a lot, and that it was totally normal. What I did not know, because I'd never done it before, was try to live for months with a baby who woke up every few hours on my own.

I thought I could do it. Haven't mothers done this since the beginning of time? I cannot describe how heavy the feeling of failure was as I slowly came unraveled by meeting my sons needs. Self-hatred is not a strong enough word.

Perhaps instead of applauding each other, you could take a moment to be thankful that not only did you have appropriate expectations, you were able to meet them.


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## jenmk (Apr 28, 2005)

My 4 have all co-slept, bf, and have been good to great sleepers. My 5 and 3 yo go to sleep with DH or I laying down with them to read and snuggle until they fall asleep (which is usually a matter of minutes), and sleep all night. (Though my 5 yo will on a weekly basis wake up to pee and come get into our bed for the rest of the night . . . but that doesn't really disturb us, we often wake up to find him next to us in the morning.) My 7 yo will read himself to sleep, asking that we check on him a few times while he's laying down.

And my 4 month old is sleeping 3-4 hours at a time, on average (she's gone as long as 6 hours some nights) and has done this from the start.

I've been blessed. And having lived through some rough nights of someone waking every hour (we've had those times, though overall the spaces between wakings has been pretty good with each child) I know how blessed I am to have gotten through them and have children who are sleeping well.

So, I'd agree with pp's who said it's a personal issue, not a parenting one. I'm sure someone's already mentioned this (but I didn't read through all the pages of responses) but sleep/waking issues can be related to allergies or food sensitivities. Kids can also get restless when they're on the verge of a developmental milestone. So there can be many reasons a child might be waking up more at night.


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## To-Fu (May 23, 2007)

Just a quick note to let everyone know we're closing this thread for now.

A lot of great discussion developed around the original post, so we're leaving it here as a resource. I know there tend to be strong feelings around sleep issues, but we ask that you please remember we cannot host personal attacks or bashing anywhere on the boards, even if it's a result of sleep deprivation.









Thanks for understanding.


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