# Librarian made my little one cry.



## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Yesterday I went to the library with my kids. They are 2.5 and nearly 5. We have a very tiny, one room library in town and the librarian is very, um, well she's just not personable. She's rarely smiles and is just sort of aloof and gives off a wierd, unfriendly vibe. That said, she has always done her job well and is "friendly" to me, says hi and all but it always seems fake somehow, like she's rather be anywhere else, but I'm paid to be here so I might as well act friendly. It's really hard to explain but many people don't like her. I can't say I don't like her but she seems like an unhappy person.

oh..and I should add, she's also a neighbour..she lives around the corner from me and I see her around town a lot.

About a year ago my daughter(who was around 18 mos at the time) was pulling books off the shelf and she ran over before I got to her and said "no, I just did that shelf" before I could get there...baby moved along and didn't notice her at all and I just sort of said "toddlers" and showed baby how she should take the books out one at a time..of course she's 18 mos and she doesn't get it.

So we've been going since without and issue except I spend a lot of time chasing little one around.

So yesterday we are in the library and the kids are right beside me and little one wanders over and starts ripping books off the shelf. I am right there and as I get up to go get her, the librarian runs by me, grabs a book out of my litte girl's hand and yells "no, don't take the books off the shelf" now at this point there are only about 3 books on the floor.

Well my little girl puts her hand over her face and starts to cry and the librarian says "well maybe I scared you into not ever doing that again" with a kind of laugh and baby comes running to me. At that point I am







: because really, I was right there, it was not serious and I have been at this library enough that librarian knows I would have picked up the books immediately and reshelved them with the little ones help etc. and I know how to dewey so they would have been in order etc.

I didn't say anything to librarian because honestly I was too mad. I took deep breaths and consoled my little girl who sobbed and sobbed. I said "it's ok, you can look at the books" and help her take them out of the shelf and show her how to put them back and get her calmed down.

We take the books to the librarian to check out and I am still afraid to speak for fear I will lose it...I have a temper which I have kept in control for years but I knew if I started..." anyway..librarian is super-fake over friendly now and we take our books and leave.

When we get out my little one says she's sad, sort of starts to cry again with the memory of the incident and says she doesn't like the library anymore









I tell her we can't throw books on the floor but that librarian shouldn't scare little girls either. My 5 year old then pipes up and says "I think she's a bully" and I had to agree somewhat.

So now what do I do? Do I report her to the library board? I'm sure she's not going to get in any sort of trouble, the only other people there were kids etc. baby was throwing books on the floor and I'm sure with time I will get the baby to go back to the library.

I don't even know if I should do anything.

I do know that next time I will firmly tell her not to speak to my children in that tone again. That I realise that it's frustrating to organise her shelves only to have kids toss them on the floor BUT that I will take care of it.

She just simply doesn't have the right to do so. But I don't want to go off on her either, I just think I need to show the kids that you can stand up for yourself but you should be reasonable and firm in doing so.

Yesterday I couldn't be sure I could pull that off, next time I will be ready.

meanwhile..what do you all think?


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Report her. And specifically, report her for being rude to YOU in acting like you're the kind of irresponsible person who leaves books on the floor. She knows you'll put the books back, if she's got a problem with how you put the books back she should've told YOU about it, not taken it out on your child.

Also, it'd definitely be worth the library rethinking how they handle organizing the childrens' books if pulling three off the shelf is enough of a problem to yell at a 30 month old. Particularly board books. They probably should move to just having baskets of that sort of book for little ones to look through.

And I think it was very mature of you not to pull like 50 books off the shelves and stick them on the reshelving cart.







(If it wasn't a one room library, you could have happy thoughts about randomizing a couple dozen books.)


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

I don't think the yelling was appropriate, but at the same time, it's really not okay for little ones to toss library books around.

I'd ask/tell the librarian to take it up with YOU if she has an issue with your children's behavior, but I also think you need to be right on top of your youngest and keep her from messing with the books.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Wow, I dunno. I'm so sorry, she is a bully.







I think the planned response for next time is a good one, hopefully you won't have to use it though...


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
I don't think the yelling was appropriate, but at the same time, it's really not okay for little ones to toss library books around.

I'd ask/tell the librarian to take it up with YOU if she has an issue with your children's behavior, but I also think you need to be right on top of your youngest and keep her from messing with the books.

She WAS right there. 3 books on the floor does not the end of library peace and tranquility make.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
but I also think you need to be right on top of your youngest and keep her from messing with the books.

well I would have been but she "ran" past me before I could get to her...3 books had hit the floor and one was in her hand...it wasn't a big problem...yet...and wouldn't have been. And again..the library is tiny.


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## Lorette (Feb 11, 2007)

Definitely report her.
I had a very similar thing happen at our library.
The librarian came over and meanly told my (not even 2 year old) ds to be quiet.
We were in the children's section-- with toys and many other kids being loud too, but somehow she picked out my ds to reprimand.
It made me so angry. Strangers should not reprimand our children!

I reported the librarian, thinking that if she does this a lot and other parents report her too, she might change her ways.

Librarians should be teaching children to love the library and feel comfortable there, not reprimanding them for doing normal baby things.

She sounds like an unhappy, angry person.

OOOOh my blood is boiling remembering this situation we had at the library!

Lorette


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## Qestia (Sep 26, 2005)

I do think you need to keep a closer eye on your toddler, library books are for everyone and it sounds like they were or couild definitely be getting damaged being treated like that, not to mention be a hazard for someone to trip on. I don't think the librarian should have yelled, but I can understand how she might think you weren't planning on stopping your child since you admit you've let her do it before.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 
I do know that next time I will firmly tell her not to speak to my children in that tone again. That I realise that it's frustrating to organise her shelves only to have kids toss them on the floor BUT that I will take care of it.

I think saying this is a good idea.


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## Lorette (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
I don't think the yelling was appropriate, but at the same time, it's really not okay for little ones to toss library books around.

I'd ask/tell the librarian to take it up with YOU if she has an issue with your children's behavior, but I also think you need to be right on top of your youngest and keep her from messing with the books.

Babies shouldn't be allowed at the library if they are expected not to do normal baby things.
If there are children's sections at libraries then the librarians should expect children to do normal children things. It is a place to learn how to act at a library and this takes time and experience and teaching from mom or caregiver, not angry, stranger librarian.

Lorette


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## Lorette (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Qestia* 
I do think you need to keep a closer eye on your toddler, library books are for everyone and it sounds like they were or couild definitely be getting damaged being treated like that, not to mention be a hazard for someone to trip on. I don't think the librarian should have yelled, but I can understand how she might think you weren't planning on stopping your child since you admit you've let her do it before.

The OP was going to pick up the books her dd put on the floor.
Even adults sometimes knock books to the floor by mistake-- but would a librarian run over and yell at the person before they had a chance to pick them up?


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## fresh_water (Feb 29, 2008)

I'd report her. I'm sorry she made your LO cry, that is NOT ok. Anyone that works with children in any capacity should know that. If it had been me, I probably would have said, "Oh hunny, don't cry, it's not YOUR fault some adults can't control themselves. You were being your age baby," and made sure the librarian heard me. Then when she walked away I would have taken a stack of books and stuck them in random places. And after I left, I'd call whoever oversees the library and report her. It's never ok to yell at a child, especially for doing an age appropriate behavior like *gasp* taking books off a shelf.


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## midnightmommy (Apr 14, 2008)

Report her to the board. Even if nothing happens this time. They need to know that this is going on.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Most of these responses just reaffirm my feeling that libraries are just crap places for anyone under nine or so. My local library is similar--I have gotten to the point where I only go by myself. I am actually a bookseller/publishing person, books are a huge part of my life, treating them with respect is a huge part of my life, treating other with respect is a huge part of my life--obviously, I would pass that on to my child. But my local library is not kid-friendly at all, in my experience. DD, 3, needs to learn to use her library voice, and the only way she is going to do that is if we play pretend library at home for the next few years.

Rigid storyhours where toddlers are expected to sit and listen for unreasonable amounts of time--this woman actually raising her voice to your child instead _asking if you could use some help_--did anyone think of that as an alternative instead of judging or suggesting that the child shouldn't be able engage with the books? Children need to learn the proper way to be behave in situations, and I find the library to be even more judgmental than restaurants.

So, just like restaurants--you are better starting your kid somewhere child-friendly like an applebee's where they can learn restaurant manners. Instead of the library, go to barnes and noble--the local staff at my store is much more kid friendly, and their story hours rock. I don't buy something every time I go, so it's no differerent to my budget.


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

I would use this opportunity to show them how to deal with a 'bully'...straight on. I wouldn't report right away. Also, show them how to take responsibility for pulling the books off by apologizing to her first. Then explain to her that scaring your kid is not acceptable and in the future please come to me if my kids are messing up the books.

I would do this the next time you visit the library after you have checked out. If you weren't planning to go right away I would make a special trip immediately so that it is still fresh in your kids experience.

With your 5 year old standing with you and your 2.5 year old in your arms say something like excuse me, but I must speak to you regarding our last visit. First apologize for your little one and for you letting it happen. Tell her you will do your absolute best to keep it from happening again. However, the way you spoke to my little one was not acceptable. It scared her and made her not want to come back to the library. In the future...blah, blah, blah.

Two lessons...accepting responsibility by apologing and facing the fear of a bully and how to have a meaningful conversation to address everyones' needs.

If she does it again...report her and show your kids how to report her. This also shows your kids that you are there to protect them. Good job keeping your cool long enough to get out of there. I would explain that to your kids as well. Mommy was so angry at the librarian she had to leave to cool off. Now we can go and talk to her about it.
Hope it gets resolved in a good way. It sounds like you live in a 'one horse town' and your kind of stuck with her.


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## Cassiopeia (Sep 27, 2006)

I think you are way off base madskye. Libraries are absolutely for people under 9. Yes, there are behavior expectations but I have been taking my wild boys to the library for years. I think we've gotten yelled at once or twice in that time - for running. Well, they aren't supposed to run in the library, sorry, that's the rule and I do as best I can to help them follow it and when they don't we just deal with it, we don't stay away from the library forever.

The librarian did over react the second time but pulling books off the shelf really is not okay. I don't get the sense from the OP that she did pick up the books the first time.

If my child were pulling the books off, I would put them back (if the librarian let me, sometimes they want to shelve themselves) and then we would leave. Leaving the library would be an immediate consequence of that. I also would not expect little kids to take long leisurely trips to the library. A quick in and out. And, yes, if it's just too hard for the baby, then don't take him/her. Wait until the baby is more ready.

But saying libraries are "crap" for anyone under 9 is ludicrous.


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

sounds like she's really not used to kids and has unrealistic expectations.

I wouldn't necessarily report her, though. I don't think it will get you anywhere. The board will think, "spoiled kids and over-indulgent" mother (not saying this is true, just saying how it will come across). Plus, she'll know who it was who reported her and then your life will be miserable.

what about working to make the library more child friendly? Could you talk to her or the board about how much you enjoy the library and how you want to teach your children to love books yada yada yada but that it really isn't kid-friendly as it is now? How could the community work to better the children's resources, etc.?

sorry about your bad experience, though.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I made my suggestions based on having been the person who had to reshelve the books. A kid pulling books off a shelf is one of the "hazards of the trade", and is waaaay less annoying than adults who try to put books back on the shelf with no concept of the cataloging system (seriously, how hard would be for them to get 346.64 BEFORE 347.12?) and infinitely less annoying than adults who try hiding books away for "later". (







: A woman did that right in front of me after I asked her not to.







I took the book to the mending box behind the counter when she left.)

Really, the OP needs to talk with the library board because the librarian needs an assistant (even a volunteer for an hour a day or so) or a replacement if she can't handle the work. Or the library needs to be reorganized to better accommodate her abilities.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 
*I have been at this library enough that librarian knows I would have picked up the books immediately and reshelved them with the little ones help etc. and I know how to dewey so they would have been in order etc*.

For those who missed it in the OP.


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## Cassiopeia (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 

About a year ago my daughter(who was around 18 mos at the time) was pulling books off the shelf and she ran over before I got to her and said "no, I just did that shelf" before I could get there...baby moved along and didn't notice her at all and I just sort of said "toddlers" and showed baby how she should take the books out one at a time..of course she's 18 mos and she doesn't get it.

This is what made me question whether she helped/said anything to the librarian the first time. Tossing the word "toddlers" over your shoulder doesn't really acknowledge the other person very well.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lorette* 
If there are children's sections at libraries then the librarians should expect children to do normal children things. It is a place to learn how to act at a library and this takes time and experience and teaching from mom or caregiver, not angry, stranger librarian.

Lorette

Depends on your definition of normal children's things -- some people would think it was normal and "kids being kids" to throw things, knock over computers, step on CD cases, color on books, rip out pages, etc....

Those books are for the entire community, and these days library budgets are so tight that a ripped, colored-on, broken-spined book will probably not be able to be replaced -- not without forgoing buying a new book.

We have been going to the library since my kids were babies. And since they were babies I have worked hard to instill respect for books not just for the stories in them but also for their physical well-being. We don't color in books, we don't rip pages, we don't leave them on the floor and walk on them. From the time my kids were babies, DH and I demonstrated this, reinforced it, taught it. We protected our own books and the kids books from damage - not with punishment, but by "rescuing" them when they might get hurt. We're not crazy-clean OCD people, but as book people (I worked in libraries and/or bookstores exclusveily from age 16 to 29) this was important to us...

Could the librarian have responded better? Certainly.

On the other hand, having the attitude "throwing books around is just what kids do" isn't very respectful to the other people in your community who also use the library. And maybe she'd had a bad day in which she encountered a few too many parents who had that attitude before she saw your little one head for that shelf of books?


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## library lady (Sep 3, 2007)

My husband and I are both librarians and we absolutely hate stories like this. You should report the librarian. I don't care if your toddler was taking books off the shelf. That is a hazard that you come across if you work in a public library. A stranger should never ever never pull a book out of a kids hand. Period. My husband and I have run into so many sour and unfriendly librarians it is ridiculous. It isn't right for you kid to pull books off of the shelves but that is what toddlers in the library do. If the librarian gets her panties in such a bunch, maybe she needs to reconsider her profession. Sorry, but it drives me nuts when librarians treat kids like crap and then wonder why nobody wants to use the library and why kids aren't reading much. Grrrrrr.....I would recommend reporting her and complaining to anybody that will listen.

My husband was a children's librarian (and I worked in children's at one time also) so I am speaking from experience. If you see a kid that little doing stuff like that, you look for the parent and address the parent. "Would you please keep a closer eye on your toddler?" Grab the books off of the floor and put them on the reshelving card but do NOT take a book out of a kids hand. If you talk to the kids, you do it NICELY.


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## Cassiopeia (Sep 27, 2006)

Good points savithny. I will also own up to the fact that I work in a library too so my buttons were a little pushed by some of the PP's.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cassiopeia* 
This is what made me question whether she helped/said anything to the librarian the first time. Tossing the word "toddlers" over your shoulder doesn't really acknowledge the other person very well.

True, but holding a grudge for a year (hmm, need to edit an earlier post) is more proof that the librarian just can't handle the work any more.


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## Magali (Jun 8, 2007)

I just wanted to say that I know what it is like to have a temper. I too have to keep mine under control especially when it comes to people treating my family members disrespectfully.







to you for staying cool. Also I have worked in places where I've had to deal with kids and under no circumstance would I ever treat a child the way that librarian did. The parents I would say something to if it was that bad but I think what the librarian did was crossing the line.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cassiopeia* 
This is what made me question whether she helped/said anything to the librarian the first time. Tossing the word "toddlers" over your shoulder doesn't really acknowledge the other person very well.


Actually...I put all the books back on the shelf that time, and in order. Again..small library...even if I didn't say anything directly to the librarian..she could hear what I was saying to my children.

And I'm not sure if she even remembered this incident









But we are at the library frequently since then and usually my little one just follows her sister around or they sit at teh computer etc.

and really...I could not follow baby around more..it's impossible unless I restrained. I watch her very carefully...but she's 2.5 and she's unpredictable as they generally are.

and to give perspective on how small the library is and how close I was...I was at a table, baby was one shelf over....I stood up to go put the books back/get the baby and librarian "ran" I mean literally ran...by me...her desk is maybe 10 ft from where baby was, I was maybe 3 feet but the table was between me and baby...I didn't run because I didn't think it was urgent but apparantly it was to her









anyway...I'm not asking what I can do to further supervise my children..I do a great job of that







and that's something you either trust I do or don't, really not concerned about that

what I'm asking is should I report this or leave it alone and see how it goes from now on..if there is nothing to be gained I don't see the point. My kids enjoy the library and are generally really well behaved...2 book tossing on the floor events in the span of a year in a toddler is actually pretty good. We put the puzzles away when we are done, we log off the computer, we put the table books back in their bin..we are really good and she knows it because we are there a lot and we always clean up. She knows our names, it's a one room library so really I think she's just a grouch..lol

phone..i'll be back


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
True, but holding a grudge for a year (hmm, need to edit an earlier post) is more proof that the librarian just can't handle the work any more.


I don't know that she held a grudge for a year however I do suspect that is the case. I remember the incident last year because I felt bad about it and just chalked it up to a "I've reshelved those books a million times today and I'm at the end of my rope" response but after yesterday's running past me to get after my daughter and the fact that she said something about "scaring her into not doing it again" makes me think she was holding a grudge.

My friend thinks I should report her. I don't know. I may just give this one more shot.

We have another library in the next town that has wonderful children's librarians who are so nice to the kids, it's a bigger library but I have to drive to go there and I just don't like to burn unnecessary gas. I might see how things go in a few weeks. We are good library patrons, my kids are generally well behaved and I am working hard to teach them about the library and how to be respectful of it. But I don't want to have to walk on eggshells about it either.

Oh..well..I will meditate on it and talk to my dh.

I love the library...I think positive library experiences are vital for kids and I hope my little one is happy to go back again.

But I will speak up the next time.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 

On the other hand, having the attitude "throwing books around is just what kids do" isn't very respectful to the other people in your community who also use the library. And maybe she'd had a bad day in which she encountered a few too many parents who had that attitude before she saw your little one head for that shelf of books?

Someone once said to me "misplaced agression is still agression" and I think that applies here. If she sees that a lot, while I understand, it's still not a good excuse to do what she did. The first time she did that when the baby was 18 mos, that's how I passed it off...I'm having trouble doing that this time however because baby has only done this twice and twice she's been out of line...starting to look like a habit, not a bad day now.

Ok..gotta stop thinking about this..I'm getting mad again.


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## wytchywoman (Nov 14, 2006)

I think you should report it. I am not a librarian but I have worked in the children's section of a bookstore for over two years now. For whatever reason, kids love to pull books off the shelves and sit them on the floor. Most parents aren't as nice as you are and put them back, usually I have to clean it up, but as library lady said, that is the territory. It comes with the job.
The only time I have ever said anything to a child was when I couldn't find the parent. ( you'd be surprised at how unsupervised some of our smaller customers are sometimes, as in kid in the kid department and mom or dad downstairs drinking coffee in the cafe, kinda makes my head want to explode). Anyways, the few times I had to address a child I made sure my voice was very sugary sweet and simply told them that putting bokks on the floor was dangerous. Someone could trip or step on them and slip and fall. There was no need to inflict psychological terror over it, most kids just don't understand that it's a ahzard to leave piles of books on the ground and when you explain it that way they usually stop. Even if they don't they are still just being kids.That comment she made about " no I just did that shelf" was unacceptable. You can't tell someone not to look at books because you just organized a shelf, give me a break.
so after this very long rambling post, I suggest you report. At a minimum perhaps the will set her aside and speak to her and perhaps even give suggestions about how to deal with this kind of situation more appropriately,


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## gretasmommy (Aug 11, 2002)

I would speak with her directly, because no matter what happened, she handled it poorly and should never have spoken to your child in that manner. Ever.

If she had issue with your little one's behaviour, she should have spoken directly with you, or spoken kindly to your LO and helped her to treat the books gently - even if it meant that she was putting them on the floor. That's the best one can hope for with a 2 year old. Then she could have asked you to be sure to put the books on the cart, and perhaps asked you to help her remove only the books she wished to look at (they are books, not toys/stacking blocks).

She behaved badly, and you can teach your oldest child how to respond when someone isn't kind.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

allgirls....I worked in libraries for years. I can think of no circumstances where ripping a book out of a patron's hand and yelling at them would be appropriate.

I like making a plan with the kids for next time. I'm really sorry you were bullied by someone who sounds maybe depressed?


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## izzysmama (Aug 12, 2006)

Report her.

It doesn't have to be like that. Our librarians *encourage* the children to touch/read/play with the books and all they ask is that you put them on one of two different carts so they can put them away. Going to the library is a cheerful event in our family. The librarians know DD's name, save books for her they think she might like, and make a point of conversing with her. We have been going to this particular library since DD was 18 mos. Before that - we went to a library where the librarian would hold our DD while we looked around and help her find books from a big basket in the play area. She was so bummed when we moved away as she had been our daughter's librarian since birth. The library is huge in our family and I guess if it were me - I would drive to the next town over. I want DD to have positive experiences in the community.


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## a(TM)?Star (Oct 13, 2005)

That is so sad to hear that she treated your lo like that, I'm sorry. I don't really care if it's the DMV, library, or anywhere, noone shoudl talk to a child that way, especially a children's librarian. I'll also say that I am not one of those people that think that children are "allowed" to behave anyway they want, but seriously, the mother was right there. I would report her. Our librarians encourage my kids to explore the library.


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## Aliviasmom (Jul 24, 2006)

Yup. Go above her and complain. I work in a library, on a college campus. Re-shelving books is an ENDLESS job. It's part of the job. And she can't expect kids to NOT look at books! If she has a problem with that, and feels the need to tell everyone what to do, then she is in the WRONG job. IF, however, a child was tearing out pages, coloring on them, etc, THEN she would have a right to step in. Your child was not doing this, and she should have bit her lip and walked away. UAV!!!


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## amandaleigh37 (Jul 13, 2006)

I haven't read the other comments yet but...

If it were me, I wouldn't report her to anyone right away. I'd try to talk to her first, and then dependinging on her response, report her then.


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## mom2snugbugs (Nov 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
So, just like restaurants--you are better starting your kid *somewhere child-friendly like an applebee's* where they can learn restaurant manners. Instead of the library, go to barnes and noble--the local staff at my store is much more kid friendly, and their story hours rock. I don't buy something every time I go, so it's no differerent to my budget.

laughup














:









bolding mine

You are kidding, right? Did you not hear about the 48 states that participated in the Applebee's nurse-in?


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## LindyLou (May 4, 2004)

My mom always used to say to me "Its not what you say, its how you say it" Her tone was definitely out of line. There are much better ways to speak to your daughter. Saying something I think was fine, but how she said it was not.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lorette* 
The OP was going to pick up the books her dd put on the floor.
Even adults sometimes knock books to the floor by mistake-- but would a librarian run over and yell at the person before they had a chance to pick them up?









This.


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## Denali (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 
what I'm asking is should I report this or leave it alone and see how it goes from now on..

I wouldn't report this time, but i would still do something....I really liked the advice of a PP on page 1:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
With your 5 year old standing with you and your 2.5 year old in your arms say something like excuse me, but I must speak to you regarding our last visit. First apologize for your little one and for you letting it happen. Tell her you will do your absolute best to keep it from happening again. However, the way you spoke to my little one was not acceptable. It scared her and made her not want to come back to the library. In the future...blah, blah, blah.

Two lessons...accepting responsibility by apologing and facing the fear of a bully and how to have a meaningful conversation to address everyones' needs.

That's what I'd do


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## Crazybean (Apr 24, 2008)

Well, it's not a librarian's job to discipline kids especially if the parent is there (it's different if teens are making out in the study room then yes, they can kick them out). She should have let YOU handle the situation and then maybe helped you explain how they use books. I would have been really upset and I too have a temper. I'm not sure how I would have handeled it but I can picture myself hissing at her to never speak to my child again if she is going to be a witch. But, you did the grown up thing and let yourself cool off. I would mention something to someone. Scaring young children away from the library is a horrible thing to do and it wasn't her place to do it.


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## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
Most of these responses just reaffirm my feeling that libraries are just crap places for anyone under nine or so. My local library is similar--I have gotten to the point where I only go by myself. I am actually a bookseller/publishing person, books are a huge part of my life, treating them with respect is a huge part of my life, treating other with respect is a huge part of my life--obviously, I would pass that on to my child. But my local library is not kid-friendly at all, in my experience. DD, 3, needs to learn to use her library voice, and the only way she is going to do that is if we play pretend library at home for the next few years.

Rigid storyhours where toddlers are expected to sit and listen for unreasonable amounts of time--this woman actually raising her voice to your child instead _asking if you could use some help_--did anyone think of that as an alternative instead of judging or suggesting that the child shouldn't be able engage with the books? Children need to learn the proper way to be behave in situations, and I find the library to be even more judgmental than restaurants.

So, just like restaurants--you are better starting your kid somewhere child-friendly like an applebee's where they can learn restaurant manners. Instead of the library, go to barnes and noble--the local staff at my store is much more kid friendly, and their story hours rock. I don't buy something every time I go, so it's no differerent to my budget.

I just want to pipe in to say that I've had really good experiences at library time. The toddler story time is in a separate room, and its understood that they're going to get up and move around a bit. The library has a really great children's section with toys and kid-sized pillows and seats. I am not always as right on top of my kids as I probably should be, but I've never had a librarian even look at them cross-eyed. It's expected that in the kids section things will get a little disorganized at times. Dh also takes the kids there in the evening a lot, as ds1 likes to use the computer to play educational games.

So, the library CAN be a great place for small children.


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## Lorette (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *library lady* 
My husband and I are both librarians and we absolutely hate stories like this. You should report the librarian. I don't care if your toddler was taking books off the shelf. That is a hazard that you come across if you work in a public library. A stranger should never ever never pull a book out of a kids hand. Period. My husband and I have run into so many sour and unfriendly librarians it is ridiculous. It isn't right for you kid to pull books off of the shelves but that is what toddlers in the library do. If the librarian gets her panties in such a bunch, maybe she needs to reconsider her profession. Sorry, but it drives me nuts when librarians treat kids like crap and then wonder why nobody wants to use the library and why kids aren't reading much. Grrrrrr.....I would recommend reporting her and complaining to anybody that will listen.

My husband was a children's librarian (and I worked in children's at one time also) so I am speaking from experience. If you see a kid that little doing stuff like that, you look for the parent and address the parent. "Would you please keep a closer eye on your toddler?" Grab the books off of the floor and put them on the reshelving card but do NOT take a book out of a kids hand. If you talk to the kids, you do it NICELY.

Thank you for this post.
These are my feelings exactly!

Lorette


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## yarngoddess (Dec 27, 2006)

I too had a one room super small town library- grew up in it acctually. I LOVED my library- and was excited to take MY son there. There was a different libriarian there- and for WEEKS I thought she was crabby- until one day when DS picked up the metal book ends and started DRUMMING on the metal shelf with them. LOL- I just about died! I was trying to get him to stop- but he had NO interest. Well the librarian lady came over and said "Oh, that sounds SO good! All day it's silence... it's nice to hear NOISE!" we became fast friends and she would warn people that my DS was the "House Band" and if they were offended to please speak up- and we would entertain him another way.

You need to report this- because if she is acting this way to your nice childeren- what is she doing to all the other children in town? Does she treat the children that come with out a parent with the same respect that she would would when the parents are there? Is she as mean to kids whos parents aren't paying attention? I always think about "What about the OTHER children out there???" You need to report her FOR the other people in town- so that she can do her job better- or find something else that makes her happy.

I DO think you should take the PP advice about discussing what happened "Last time I was here" and I would tell her that if she has an issue with YOUR children- to talk to YOU.

Fwiw- I think that you watched your DD's just fine- I don't think you need to "pay more attention" or "leave them home" because it's a library- not a sacred place where children aren't allowed. I think this is the case of the crabby librarian- not the unruly children. Geesh.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

At our library, if children do something they shouldn't, they talk to the parents directly.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think that she was totally correct to protect the condition of the books quickly, but she should have done it a different way. You say that there have only been two instances of your child throwing books on the floor so there is no way that she could know that you would reshelve these books if the last instance was years ago. She probably acted based on other instances of children being allowed to dump books on the floor and trample them. She may just have a zero tolerance for this type of thing that led to her strong reaction. These are community things and her job is to protect their quality not to coddle people's children, if you weren't moving toward your child she needed to intervene.
I think you should talk to her boss about the grabbing the book and tell the boss you would prefer it if she told you to watch your child better next time rather than scolding your child. Our library has a big box where they put their paper back kids books and they don't alphabatize them or anything so that is where kids go if they need to pull books out, they also have baskets that kids and other patrons can put the books into. You might suggest a system like this to the person in charge as an outlet for children who want to have the freedom to look for books on their own. They also have toys for the kids to play with and puzzles so kids have more appropriate outlets for their boredom.


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## diamond lil (Oct 6, 2003)

As a person who has spent more hours among the stacks than I care to admit (I was an English major), I can maybe think of one time single time I was slightly annoyed by a small child in the library. I can, however, think of COUNTLESS times I was annoyed by dirty old men, drunks, and obnoxious college students. Nope, the librarians never did anything to correct any bad ADULT behavior (and I do realize that it is not job 1 for librarians to police behavior).

The librarian overreacted, but I don't think you should let it ruin your library-going experiences in the future.

Just my 2 cents.


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## IlluminatedAttic (Aug 25, 2006)

I too think you should go back and speak to her as soon as possible. If you feel it is appropriate/beneficial for your children to observe the interaction then bring them. During the conversation I would first explain why you did not speak up, that you wanted to deal with her in a respectful manner and were worried that your emotions would have gotten the better of you. I would then hand her a copy of the letter you intend to send to the board (obviously you'll have to write it first) citing the situation, why her response was unacceptable, and how you expect such situations to be handled in the future. Verbally cover the content of the letter and then also be sure to convey why you feel children should be welcome at a library and how important you feel it is to them developing a love of books and reading.

Only you know if you were truly supervising your children in as responsible a manner as possible. If you know that you were lax then including an apology and a promise to do better is a good idea. If the scene was really as you describe it then it does not sound to me to be something that any of the librarians we encounter on a very regular basis at a variety of libraries would have any issue with. They are all very welcoming of my ds at all his stages of development. We do stick to the children's sections though, and I ask the librarians to retrieve any books I need from the adult sections so that I will not have to venture into those areas with a toddler and his typical energetic behavior.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

I really like Shami's advice. Yeppers.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
You say that there have only been two instances of your child throwing books on the floor so there is no way that she could know that you would reshelve these books if the last instance was years ago. She probably acted based on other instances of children being allowed to dump books on the floor and trample them. She may just have a zero tolerance for this type of thing that led to her strong reaction. These are community things and her job is to protect their quality not to coddle people's children, if you weren't moving toward your child she needed to intervene.
I think you should talk to her boss about the grabbing the book and tell the boss you would prefer it if she told you to watch your child better next time rather than scolding your child. Our library has a big box where they put their paper back kids books and they don't alphabatize them or anything so that is where kids go if they need to pull books out, they also have baskets that kids and other patrons can put the books into. You might suggest a system like this to the person in charge as an outlet for children who want to have the freedom to look for books on their own. They also have toys for the kids to play with and puzzles so kids have more appropriate outlets for their boredom.

I go to the library every three to four weeks and while baby doesn't throw books on the floor every time we do take books out, look at them and put them all back after if we are not borrowing...we always do that...every 3 to 4 weeks for the past 4 years or so since we moved to this area. We occasionally go to the big library in town but since we moved to this town we can walk to the local branch so we have been going there for a year and a half every month. Previously we lived in a town 6k away and we would drive to this town..but we still went fairly frequently.

We always clean everything up. it was a year since the first incident. Oh and they have baskets of puzzles, toys, board books, and a computer. My kids play and then we tidy up. And she would have to notice..there are rarely any other children there while I am there and the children's section is right in view of her desk.

I talked to my dh, he thinks I should just have a talk with her(now that I've calmed down) so I think that's what I will do. He was pretty mad. My kids love the library.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Is email appropriate? There is an email address for her and all the other librarians for contacting them. I wouldn't have to worry about losing my temper if she says the wrong thing and our correspondence on the issue would be in writing.

What do you think?


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 
I go to the library every three to four weeks and while baby doesn't throw books on the floor every time we do take books out, look at them and put them all back after if we are not borrowing...we always do that...every 3 to 4 weeks for the past 4 years or so since we moved to this area. We occasionally go to the big library in town but since we moved to this town we can walk to the local branch so we have been going there for a year and a half every month. Previously we lived in a town 6k away and we would drive to this town..but we still went fairly frequently.

We always clean everything up. it was a year since the first incident. Oh and they have baskets of puzzles, toys, board books, and a computer. My kids play and then we tidy up. And she would have to notice..there are rarely any other children there while I am there and the children's section is right in view of her desk.

I talked to my dh, he thinks I should just have a talk with her(now that I've calmed down) so I think that's what I will do. He was pretty mad. My kids love the library.

If your kids aren't making a scene every three to four weeks then she may not realize that you are being responsible. Or, she may have wanted to make it very clear that there is never a time to be irresponsible with the books. It is also possible that she thinks you are being irresponsible everytime you come and reacted harshly because she wants to see an end to this without confronting you. If this is the case taking it to her supervisor or pointing it out to her should stop her from trying to bully your child out of her fun.

That is great that they have kids stuff and an area for kids to be. Hopefully they will get more so your kids feel like using it instead of the books for fun.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

I wouldn't do email. You have no idea if she checks it that frequently, etc.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
If your kids aren't making a scene every three to four weeks then she may not realize that you are being responsible. Or, she may have wanted to make it very clear that there is never a time to be irresponsible with the books. It is also possible that she thinks you are being irresponsible everytime you come and reacted harshly because she wants to see an end to this without confronting you. If this is the case taking it to her supervisor or pointing it out to her should stop her from trying to bully your child out of her fun.

That is great that they have kids stuff and an area for kids to be. Hopefully they will get more so your kids feel like using it instead of the books for fun.

They do use it. My kids do not on a regular basis use the books for fun. Twice in a year a toddler threw books on the floor. And there is no room for more...it's a tiny library. They do rotate though, there will be different puzzles/toys.

I'm not sure why she would think I'm being irresponsible everytime I go in when I'm not








because if we are being irresponsible then her criteria for appropriate library behaviour is way too restrictive for kids...I mean going through some books, making choices, putting back the books we don't want, putting together the puzzles, reading some stories, putting those books back, putting the ones we want in a pile, going on the kids computer etc. with me right there the whole time is exactly the behaviour I see from other parents at the other library.

Maybe she doesn't want kids in the library but too bad for her because there is a children's section and it's for children. And there is no age restriction. There are baby board books up to young teens in that area.

I'm going to talk to her in person. Nicely.







And then I'm going to continue to go like I always do. The library is the "public" library not the "librarian's" library.

Thanks for all your advice. I feel much better now that I know my course. We were doing nothing wrong. We are respectful at the library and she's just grumpy. This has really helped me work through it and when I started thinking "did we do something wrong" and meditated I realised "no, we really didn't, she just thinks we did but she's completely in the wrong" and she's going to have to deal with that.

This is a great place to work things out.

Carolyn


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

Good for you! let us know how it works out...








:


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## widemouthedfrog (Mar 9, 2006)

Just wanted to say - I also work in a public building with a children's area and a gift shop. If children are behaving inappropriately with the things in the gift shop, I find the parent and talk to the parent. We also take the time to talk to the kids about appropriate usage of the toys in the children's area, then we go over and remind them.

I never yell at other peoples' children, even though I work in a public facility with a limited budget. We want children to come here and enjoy themselves! But it's a matter of setting things up so that people (parents and children and other caregivers) understand the expectations for behaviour.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I haven't read all the responses, but I wouldn't report her. As you said, she seems unhappy and she's probably underpaid. Good prepared response for next time, but I would forgive her if you can.

I used to live in a very small town with a pitiful little library, and the librarian there was like this too. So I know how you feel! But if you report her and she gets fired, there might not be anyone to replace her, you know? Or what if they took that opportunity to cut the funding for your library?


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

The point of the whole thing from my perspective, is not whether the children were being appropriate or not -- it is whether the _librarian_ was being appropriate in her reaction... and I say she was *not*.

The fact is, even if the child in question was acting in a way that was inappropriate -- it is not the librarian's place to speak to the child in such a manner in my opinion. It is her job to speak to the parent.

I think dealing with a young child's behavior to the child, especially when the parent is present not only undermines the parent, but is passive-aggressive as well... and honestly, tacky imo.

ETA: that having been said, I probably would not report her. I would however, speak to her directly about it -- in a direct, yet calm way.


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## library lady (Sep 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
I used to live in a very small town with a pitiful little library, and the librarian there was like this too. So I know how you feel! But if you report her and she gets fired, there might not be anyone to replace her, you know? Or what if they took that opportunity to cut the funding for your library?

Why does living in a small town automatically make you have to accept substandard service? One complaint isn't enough to get someone fired. If she gets fired, it is because there have multiple complaints and she has not addressed the situation after being asked to correct it. How does the director know if people are happy if people don't provide feedback? My husband worked as the director of a small town library and he wanted people to let him know when the staff was being rude or messing up. He saw it as a training opportunity for the entire staff. It would never be used to fire someone unless multiple complaints were received by multiple patrons.

I guarantee that there isn't a librarian shortage and there won't be one any time soon.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Captain Crunchy's comment about whether the librarian's behavior was appropriate really stands out for me. If a child destroys a book, doesn't the library charge the replacement cost to the parent's account? Exactly how much would it matter if a book got a big tear?


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
If your kids aren't making a scene every three to four weeks then she may not realize that you are being responsible. Or, she may have wanted to make it very clear that there is never a time to be irresponsible with the books.

I don't think you're understanding the size of the library. These type of really small town libraries have everything in view because it's so small. Plus, allgirls said the librarian's a neighbor. They're not some anonymous folks coming in once a month. I think it's highly unlikely the librarian doesn't know who they are.


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## N8'sMom (Jun 25, 2007)

Haven't read all the responses....but I would've something like....
"Address me, not my child"


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
I don't think you're understanding the size of the library. These type of really small town libraries have everything in view because it's so small. Plus, allgirls said the librarian's a neighbor. They're not some anonymous folks coming in once a month. I think it's highly unlikely the librarian doesn't know who they are.

yes...it's teeny...it's a very old building..you walk up the steps and into the library...you are about 5 ft from her dest. There are shelves on either side of the desk where the self-help books are on one side and the biographies on the other and behind her are spiritual books. To the right is the childrens section...books along the walls and in the centre and area with 2 little tables and a bench...there are 2 computers in this area and a set of encyclopedia...to the left of her is a bit more space...4 shelves of books with books on both sides, a table to work at, and books around the walls. Tehre is a bathroom there and beside that a shelf of periodicals. There are couple of racks of romance novels and a small shelf of movies. There are two other computers in the adult section.

That's it. She knows us by name...all of us who have cards anyway. I know because she said "oh, Carolyn, your book The Audacity of Hope is in" I don't know if she knows the little ones name but she knows my older daughter's names.

I'll talk to her this week likely. I think I will go without kids.

I'll let you know.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Good luck with it, allgirls. This kind of thing is so hard but an opportunity for you to assert yourself and feel good about that in the end.

As far as reporting, I would. I agree with the point made earlier that just because it's a small town doesn't mean that the people who live there have to deal with this kind of treatment. I would report it with the intention being that she does need some mentoring or guidance with these issues or perhaps an assistant. If she can't adjust her attitude, then maybe a replacement would be good for everyone involved.


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## Jade's Mom (Aug 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
I would use this opportunity to show them how to deal with a 'bully'...straight on. I wouldn't report right away. Also, show them how to take responsibility for pulling the books off by apologizing to her first. Then explain to her that scaring your kid is not acceptable and in the future please come to me if my kids are messing up the books.

I would do this the next time you visit the library after you have checked out. If you weren't planning to go right away I would make a special trip immediately so that it is still fresh in your kids experience.

With your 5 year old standing with you and your 2.5 year old in your arms say something like excuse me, but I must speak to you regarding our last visit. First apologize for your little one and for you letting it happen. Tell her you will do your absolute best to keep it from happening again. However, the way you spoke to my little one was not acceptable. It scared her and made her not want to come back to the library. In the future...blah, blah, blah.

Two lessons...accepting responsibility by apologing and facing the fear of a bully and how to have a meaningful conversation to address everyones' needs.

If she does it again...report her and show your kids how to report her. This also shows your kids that you are there to protect them. Good job keeping your cool long enough to get out of there. I would explain that to your kids as well. Mommy was so angry at the librarian she had to leave to cool off. Now we can go and talk to her about it.
Hope it gets resolved in a good way. It sounds like you live in a 'one horse town' and your kind of stuck with her.

Well said. I think it's also important to teach kids to deal with people directly and learn to resolve the conflict first before going above/behind them to report them. If you resolve it with her and it doesn't happen again she shouldn't be reported. However, if she doesn't respond well or it happens again, she should definitely be reported.


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## Jade's Mom (Aug 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
Most of these responses just reaffirm my feeling that libraries are just crap places for anyone under nine or so. My local library is similar--I have gotten to the point where I only go by myself. I am actually a bookseller/publishing person, books are a huge part of my life, treating them with respect is a huge part of my life, treating other with respect is a huge part of my life--obviously, I would pass that on to my child. But my local library is not kid-friendly at all, in my experience. DD, 3, needs to learn to use her library voice, and the only way she is going to do that is if we play pretend library at home for the next few years.

Rigid storyhours where toddlers are expected to sit and listen for unreasonable amounts of time--this woman actually raising her voice to your child instead _asking if you could use some help_--did anyone think of that as an alternative instead of judging or suggesting that the child shouldn't be able engage with the books? Children need to learn the proper way to be behave in situations, and I find the library to be even more judgmental than restaurants.

So, just like restaurants--you are better starting your kid somewhere child-friendly like an applebee's where they can learn restaurant manners. Instead of the library, go to barnes and noble--the local staff at my store is much more kid friendly, and their story hours rock. I don't buy something every time I go, so it's no differerent to my budget.

Wow, that's terrible. I feel really lucky to have our library. The kid's section is huge with kids of all ages being noisy, playing with toys, on the computer, playing with the resident rabbit. The story times are great! My DD loves them. Lots of singing and engaging the children. No expectations of quiet. It's very stimulating. She gets so much out of it. I don't understand why other libraries would even have a kids section or kids activities if they aren't going to be this way.


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## baltic_ballet (May 17, 2007)

As a librarian I can understand her frustration; it’s not easy keeping the shelves tidy and in order; it is tedious, heavy and tiring work. I am not saying she had the right to yell at your child but maybe your DC was the latest in a line of children to pull books of the shelf that day and not put them back (yes I know you said you planned to return the books to the shelf) and she lost her cool.


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## gingerbane (Jun 10, 2007)

Good luck allgirls. Keep us updated.


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## Twinklefae (Dec 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
The point of the whole thing from my perspective, is not whether the children were being appropriate or not -- it is whether the _librarian_ was being appropriate in her reaction... and I say she was *not*.
.


I tried to reply to this last night, but couldn't as I couldn't figure out how to say what was bothering me. This is what was bothering me. It honestly doesn't matter if the child had climbed the book shelf and was eating books. The librarian should have spoken to her mother.


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## ~*~MamaJava~*~ (Mar 7, 2004)

allgirls, switch to the Wellesley library - they are LOVELY. i take my whole tribe over there, and it can be very trying. and they are very patient. they have things for the littles to do, and if they start taking books off the shelf (horror of horrors!) the librarian just smiles and says not to worry about it. we do our best to work on our library behavior while we're there, and i do often leave frustrated - but with the kids, not the staff.

i think that librarian's response was completely off base and i would not go back there. i would also call whoever is in charge of her. seriously, it's a one room small town library, not a university or something. as if she doesn't have time to fix up a few books - and if she knows you'll do it anyways, she's just being a crank. forget it.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~*~MamaJava~*~* 
allgirls, switch to the Wellesley library - they are LOVELY. i take my whole tribe over there, and it can be very trying. and they are very patient. they have things for the littles to do, and if they start taking books off the shelf (horror of horrors!) the librarian just smiles and says not to worry about it. we do our best to work on our library behavior while we're there, and i do often leave frustrated - but with the kids, not the staff.

i think that librarian's response was completely off base and i would not go back there. i would also call whoever is in charge of her. seriously, it's a one room small town library, not a university or something. as if she doesn't have time to fix up a few books - and if she knows you'll do it anyways, she's just being a crank. forget it.

Mamajava~









Thanks..maybe I will..there are libraries all over and I could just go to another branch in another town like Plattsville...I wonder how far Wellesley is to drive. Might be easier than Stratford.

Twinklefae..it's that statement that really made my decision for me...no matter what..she shouldn't have spoke to my child like that and made her cry. She did nothing that wasn't completely age appropriate and I was already standing to go get her...she was seriously out of line.

Thanks again everybody


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## Nawny (Jan 1, 2002)

I agree that the librarian was just plain wrong. I think before switching libraries, it makes sense to report her AND to include any ideas you have for how to make the library even more kid-friendly. For instance, every children's library section I've ever been to has baskets or boxes for board books, right down on the floor on a soft carpet with stuffed animals. No need for shelving, and it's expected that the books will be dumped out and looked and and tossed back in after.


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