# This too shall pass, and other cliches



## Quill (Feb 17, 2005)

I'm not trying to be b*tchy, but why do AP-types constantly give this non-comforting line to the freaked-out, the overwhelmed, the dying-from-exhaustion? It drives me crazy! Of course it shall pass! Our whole blessed _lives_ will pass, eventually, but what do we do about the livin' today?!

Is it just that there really isn't any answer to, say, sleep troubles? At least, no AP-sanctioned answers? Is it that everyone is too scared to say what they think a solution really is, like, say, "You need to night-wean" or "Get paid help" or whatever?

Other no-help help:
"They'll grow out of it." (Well, duh, eventually they'll go off to college or get married or something, guess you won't have to worry about it then.)
"No advice, but my X month-old does the same thing!" (Good. We can log on at night and moan about our sleep deprivation together.)

Does anyone here _like_ hearing "This too shall pass."? Does anyone go, "Shew! Thank God! Maybe after I'm tired for 12 more years, it'll pass!"


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I do actually find it helpful when people say that their dc is doing the same thing. It was here on MDC that I learned that babies often have trouble sleeping the night after they have learned a new skill. That certainly described my ds!

There are plenty of people here who will give advice though. I definitely love to give advice, whether I know or not! At one point, I was asking questions about maintaining breastmilk supply while pumping at work and someone posted to advise me to quit working.







Quitting was not really an option, ya know? Sometimes the best advice is NO ADVICE.

Anyway, the most helpful thing recommended here to me about the nightwaking was the book The No-Cry Sleep Solution. We didn't follow everything in it, but just following the advice we did was enough to help us manage a lot better.

If you can afford paid help, yeah get paid help! That's a no-brainer! At the very least get someone else to do dishes and laundry while you nap with the baby! I can't evaluate whether you should nightwean since this is your first post here and I don't even know if you have children--maybe I'm assuming you are asking for advice and you really just joined the board to complain about everyone on it. Oh well.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quill*
Does anyone here _like_ hearing "This too shall pass."? Does anyone go, "Shew! Thank God! Maybe after I'm tired for 12 more years, it'll pass!"

\









I HATE HATE HATE hearing those words!!!!!! Even seeing them typed makes me want to rip off the posters arms and beat them with their own arms! I swear... it makes the anxious moment ten times worse!


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

While all those lines are totally cliche and can be annoying, they do have merit. There have been times, for me when just remembering to put things in perspective has helped a lot. Also, the feeling that one is not alone in the struggle can give sollace. It is not the be all and end all but it is important to remember that someone taking the time to answer a post is a lot better then being met with silence.
There is a lot of constructive advice to be had as well. In fact, whole textbooks have been written based on Attachment Parenting principles! They contain a lot more information than tired old cliches. Sometimes it is important to remember that every phase a child goes through, albeit some are very challenging, are not necessarily "problems" that need to be solved.
There are many answers to sleep troubles. And many creative ways to deal with challenges that arise. Sometimes the only answer is "I know how tough that can be, wait it out, though, and your patience will pay off tenfold".
Depends on the specific situation.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

I in no way mean to be disrespectful......

Your post sounds very cranky.

I think you do need to hire help and take some time off. It would help you to be more positive.

It does help me when mamas let me know what I am going through is normal and tempererary. It gives me some perspective when I am tired and over stressed.


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## Harper (Jul 10, 2003)

I guess I like the cliche "this too shall pass." It helped me to keep things in perspective--and to keep a sense of humor. My dd was never a good sleeper. There were times I thought I couldn't take it another night. I tried to remind myself that she would not always need my help to sleep that, this too shall pass. I thought the same thing on the occasional night when she would sleep really well. In the last several weeks, she has been sleeping much better. She sleeps about 10 hours and wakes once. It's brillant. The bad nights, the zombie waking hours, have passed....


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

My other favorite..."everything happens for a reason"








But seriously though....
Well, for me, ESPECIALLY when I was a new Mom and going through things for the first time, I didn't know very many other AP Mom's and most mainstream types DID offer me more "solid" advice like...wean her, let her cry it out, start solids it'll help her sleep (at 2 months) and other lovely tidbits.
I actually did like to hear things like "it will pass" etc...from the AP mom's who's oppinion I respected, because it was nice to know that others got through it, and whatever it was ( not sleeping, marathon nursing, tantrum throwing) was not a result of AP parenting, but totally normal, and not something I created as a result of my AP style (anyone else in my life would have said it was).
Although, a solid solution would be a nice thing to get when we put a problem out there on an AP board, I think that AP parents "get" that every child/family/situation is different and that for the most part ONE thing doesn't work for every family. Where as with a more "mainstream" group ANY sleep problem should be fixed with CIO for example, where AP parents would want to know more details about what's happening. KWIM?
I think the "this too shall pass" and the "she'll grow out of it" stuff is just a way to try to let you know that you're doing the right thing and to just try to offer a little support.


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## beth568 (Jul 1, 2004)

You do sound a little cranky...I'm sorry if you're frustrated.

I agree that the cliches are annoying, but OTOH it really does help me from time to time to hear that someone else is living the same situation. And it also helps to hear from someone on the other side - it reminds me that there are different things to look forward to as my DDs grow up. I feel tons better when I read how many people struggle with sleep, because it makes me realize that it's not just my kid who's a challenge.

A lot of things about parenting are just hard. A lot of the "problems" we face - nightwaking, trouble potty training, picky eating, defiance - are just par for the course with young children, and there's not always a solution other than to just get through it. Sometimes I really do come here just for a sympathetic ear and a hug. If I want someone to tell me to shut the door and let my baby cry, I know where to hear that. And if I want someone to tell me that she's awake at 3 am with me, snuggling a baby and feeling better because that baby ISN'T crying, then I know to come here.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

I think we need to agree to disagree....


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## Quill (Feb 17, 2005)

I was speaking hypothetically; I wasn't asking about my particular child/children. Yes, I am cranky; I get cranky about this point in particular.

I've been visiting AP sites for 7 years (but not here, much) and it depresses me to see people having the same old struggles with sleep and getting the same old responses about how it will pass. At the moment, I'm sanguine about the sleep going on in my own household (I have a 7yo, 5yo and 2mth old), but I've been the poster saying I think I'll kill myself if I don't sleep more than 20 consecutive minutes soon. (That's mellodrama; don't call the police.







)

Are there really any answers? Or is nursing all night long or waking a half-dozen times for the next few years _the answer_ ?

So, I'm sorry if I'm cranky. It bothers me a lot. I think it is reasonable for a mother to expect not to be chronically deprived of sleep for several years..with EACH child, which can add up to a lot of years if you want to have more than one or two kids. So, is my thinking uncompatible with AP?

Oh, and the reason it's on my mind is because of an IRL AP friend of mine who is in tatters over her non-sleeping almost-2yo. I feel bad for her, because I don't know if there is any AP approach to help her and there's no possible way I'm going to tell her, "Don't worry, honey, it'll pass."


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

Yes, I first heard the phrase "this too shall pass" was engraved on a ring of King Solomon's. It has brought me comfort in some trying times. Sometmes I turn it into a mantra and just repeat it over and over and over again to myself. If I"m freaking out and someone says that to me, then it can bring me back to a place where I can effectively deal with whatever problem I have.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

You can try posting in the nighttime parenting area and begin with a polite disclaimer saying "please, nobody suggest "This too shall pass".
There are constructive ways to set limits with a two year old which, in time will work. Patience really is the key no matter how you look at it. I mean, really there could be any number of things particular to her situation that she could try. People need specifics in order to really offer advice. Depending on her situation, there are books you could get her or suggest for her to buy, there are things like diet to take into account, how much activity is the child exposed to in the day? What is his home-life like? Has he always been this way or has it just begun? Is he nursing? Does he sleep with her or alone? All this constructive advice can and should be coupled with the idea that it WILL pass. Not invalidating her struggle, just reminding her that it simply won't go on forever.


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

They have their place. That place is not within the context of a serious, heart-wrenching conversation with a beloved, but the do have their role. They remind us that this particular sentiment is one that has been repeated so much that it has become almost mantra-like... I like the idea of a communal set of words that mamas say at specific times. I like the notion of connectedness. I appreciate that about them. Especially the apparently dreaded, "This, too..."


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Yea, I'm with you on this.

I think cliches tend to shut down discussion or be short hand for discussion (why not just say - yea, my ds was like that until such and such an age and though it drove me insne then, I heardly remmenber it now).

Other discussion quashing cliches
"We'll just have to agree to disagree"
"Well, that is just my opinion."
"The plural of ancedote is not data" (shuts down personal stories).

But maybe a discussion board needs these shut-down mechanisms, you know? I don't know.


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## yllek (Jan 22, 2004)

Hmmm... I'm generally reassured by those "AP" cliches. They convey a reminder to me that it takes patience to be with babies. The cliches that drive me nuts are the ones from the CIO camp:

"It takes three days to learn a habit." Generally I hear this one from someone who is trying to "encourage" a guilt-ridden mom who just tried to cio with her dc.

"If I don't teach my baby how to fall asleep on her own now, she'll never get good sleep habits."

"If you pick up your baby every time he cries, he'll just learn that he can manipulate you."

The cliches that suggest that there is a quick fix to sleep issues or the ones that imply that you shouldn't trust your baby are the really unhelpful responses, imo.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quill*
I was speaking hypothetically; I wasn't asking about my particular child/children. Yes, I am cranky; I get cranky about this point in particular.

I've been visiting AP sites for 7 years (but not here, much) and it depresses me to see people having the same old struggles with sleep and getting the same old responses about how it will pass. At the moment, I'm sanguine about the sleep going on in my own household (I have a 7yo, 5yo and 2mth old), but I've been the poster saying I think I'll kill myself if I don't sleep more than 20 consecutive minutes soon. (That's mellodrama; don't call the police.







)

Are there really any answers? Or is nursing all night long or waking a half-dozen times for the next few years _the answer_ ?

So, I'm sorry if I'm cranky. It bothers me a lot. I think it is reasonable for a mother to expect not to be chronically deprived of sleep for several years..with EACH child, which can add up to a lot of years if you want to have more than one or two kids. So, is my thinking uncompatible with AP?

Oh, and the reason it's on my mind is because of an IRL AP friend of mine who is in tatters over her non-sleeping almost-2yo. I feel bad for her, because I don't know if there is any AP approach to help her and there's no possible way I'm going to tell her, "Don't worry, honey, it'll pass."










Actually, it wil pass







Sorry, but it will,eventually. I am not sleep deprived and I have a very high needs baby. As parents we make sacrifices, and it helps encourage when you see you aren't the only one who ever faced a challenge. Being a mom isn't easy. But there is no reason to go around being negative about it all. parenting=work. I think you should try to enjoy your children and not focus on what is so challenging for you.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quill*
Are there really any answers? Or is nursing all night long or waking a half-dozen times for the next few years _the answer_ ?

Oh, and the reason it's on my mind is because of an IRL AP friend of mine who is in tatters over her non-sleeping almost-2yo. I feel bad for her, because I don't know if there is any AP approach to help her and there's no possible way I'm going to tell her, "Don't worry, honey, it'll pass."









Okay, now there is something more to think about, because you have an age.

I think with a newborn and with a young baby, it's reasonable to nurse at night. They are depending on the breast for food and they are hungry at night. But once the child is relying on solid food for most of his or her calories, I think it's okay to night wean if that's what makes sense for the family. I probably won't do that any time soon, because I can live with the amount of nursing my ds does at night, but I wouldn't tell anyone else not to nightwean if constant nursing was wearing her down.

I really did like NCSS. Nowhere in the book does she say "this too shall pass"--she is great about explaining stages of children's ability to sleep. She discusses transitional objects (loveys) and ways of changing sleeping habits without torturing the child.

My parents were not APers but they definitely used bedtime rituals to good advantage.

I cannot say that my child sleeps perfectly, because he doesn't, he sometimes can't go back to sleep and sometimes he wakes up insanely early. But most of the time he sleeps enough to behave well and enough that I get enough sleep too. So something is working.

Anyway, Quill, I see from another thread that you have three children. You must have figured out the sleep stuff yourself. What did you do that helped you?


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quill*
I think it is reasonable for a mother to expect not to be chronically deprived of sleep for several years..with EACH child, which can add up to a lot of years if you want to have more than one or two kids. So, is my thinking uncompatible with AP?

This was seriously yet another reason for me to only have two kids.

It's hard. That's why people post here and that's often what they'll get offered in the way of advice, another, "it's rough, isn't it?" Which, for a lot, is enough. It is enough to know that we're not the only ones, that we're not damaging our children for life, that we're great moms doing our best to get through tough situations. I think it really does help to know that what our children go through is common and somehow biologically or developmentally appropriate. I always knew it was going to be tough, but I never imagined how tough. I love it when my AP mom tells me horror stories of having two kids 22 months apart. It makes the one I'm struggling with now less of something to worry about.


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## water (May 15, 2003)

Quote:

"The plural of ancedote is not data"
Ack-shully, the plural of anecdote IS anecdotal data :LOL

I always think that when I see someone say that. It's true, too, in sociology...


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## Meli65 (Apr 29, 2002)

A little concrete advice -- check out the No-Cry Sleep Solution (as mentioned by a PP). This was a lifesaver for me. I am often a cranky mother and when ds was still waking frequently at night at age 14-15 months I was seriously losing it. It didn't make any of us happy for me to be cursing in the middle of the night as he nursed. It's the only transition I can think of that I have consciously "helped along" that has actually worked, and as many of my friends with 2- and 3-year-olds are still not sleeping all night long -- well, I just couldn't do it. I feel your pain! I don't think it's anti-AP to nightwean a child of that age, esp. if you (the mother) are really losing it.

That being said, I too like the idea of "this too shall pass." In most every other area my ds has taken his sweet old time doing things like napping on his own, going to sleep by himself, and is currently (frustratingly) opposing all efforts to potty-train. It makes me rather crazy but is nice to be reminded, esp. by women with older children, that it will get better soon. I don't have to DO anything for it to happen.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

I find comfort in "This too shall pass" I'm not being condecending but knowing other moms have gone through that and they made it to the other side is somehow comforting.

Debra Baker


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

That was, and is, my parenting mantra. It has given me great comfort. Sometimes in the heat of the moment you can't think clearly and all you know is you are frustrated/tired/whatever and I have had moments where I was just so low down in a deep pit that I didn't know how to find my way out. Then I would take a breath and say this too shall pass. I started thinking of the future again, even if the future was 5 mins. from now when dd wouldn't be having her tantrum anymore, or 5 days from now when dd would be over her cold and not want to be held 24/7.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I think that "this too shall pass" is the AP answer to the mainstream "nip it in the bud"









That phrase has been helpful for me in discipline issues....helps me to understand that some things are simply developmentally appropriate, and will take time to disappear completely. Right now, at age 4, dd is suddenly rude. I know I am not rude to her, and I am helping her use more socially appropriate language, but I am clinging to that cliche to keep me from falling into the "nip it in the bud" trap.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

"THis too shall pass" was a lifesaver for me when my kid was little. I remember being really stuck in what was happening with her right then, and how hard it was, and I hadn't been a mother long enough to have a long-range perspective.
"This too shall pass" was a promise that things really would get better...

When I first started nursing I commited to doing it for a year, and I would literally count down the weeks... 50 more, 49 more, 48 more... by 40 I had stopped counting and I nursed for almost 4 years, but at the time, knowing that the end was coming helped me get through it.

With a preteeen, I still remind myself regularly that this stage will pass, when she's being tearful and angst-ridden. It helps me to be more patient when I see it as a temporary stage, rather than a permanent behavior pattern.

That's just me, I guess... and I guess if the message felt like, "Just suffer through it, can't you deal with it for a while?" then I wouldn't like it... but if it's, "I know it's hard and here are some tools, and although it is hard remember that you won't be struggling with this issue in a year" then it feels reassuring.

dar


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Tonight I was glad I had subscribed to this thread when my kids were being maniacs at bedtime thumping around in their room, asking me for "one more drink of water", arguing, throwing toys, laughing hysterically and making general little nusances of themselves. And I, being done at the end of the day after being up since 5:30 this morning, going to school, cleaning the house, making dinner, reading books, kissing bumps...was just about at my wits end.
I checked my email a few times and kept getting little reminders from everyone that eventually, they would fall asleep and I would have some down time. And that these times are so precious and short. And really they are quite comical if you look at it just right. And not only can I handle it, but I can appreciate it because it will pass by so very quickly.
Thanks mamas.


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## Quill (Feb 17, 2005)

captain optimism wrote:

Anyway, Quill, I see from another thread that you have three children. You must have figured out the sleep stuff yourself. What did you do that helped you?

With # 1, I "got lucky". I co-slept and marathon-nursed until she was around 2 mths, put her in a crib one day and by 3 mths, she just slept through the night. No crying, no troubles. (This was before I had ever heard of AP; was just doing what seemed to work.)

With #2, I did CIO. By now, I long knew what AP was, but would get incredibly aggitated with "This too shall pass" and endless inquiries about whether ds was teething or having a developmental spurt. So, it's not pretty, but that's the truth. I never had a sleep problem with ds after that. (He was 6 mths old.)

With #3, who is just a little Budgie yet, I co-slept, but kept making efforts to put him in his own bed. One night, it worked. So, I kept doing it. I also use a pacifier, because I don't want to be one. He only wakes at night 2ice tops. I don't know what will happen as time goes on; maybe I'll get lucky and we will continue well from here. Maybe it will not continue as it has been.

I think with AP, poor sleep is generally regarded as a problem that mom just has to suck up. I don't agree. Poor sleep affect the children; I can see that with my own eyes. So, I don't think you can just blow off sleep and say, "My kid is HN."

I've read NCSS; I bought that book when I was pg with #3, a baby whom I lost at birth. I was hoping not to have to do CIO again, so that is why I was interested in pantley's book. The friend I mentioned, though, borrowed that book and didn't find it helpful. The only thing that is helping my friend is to force the issue and yes, it is involving a lot of crying. I wish this was not the route she felt she must go...and she wishes that, too, but she doesn't know anything AP that will make this better. I can't say I blame here. It's not easy to sit there at playgroup with this other mom who trained all her babies to sleep through the night by 9 weeks old and go, "Oh, but AP is so much more _loving_ !" I'm not saying I would do what that 9-week trainer mom did, but it leaves ya in a lurch to say, "Well, no, she's not sleeping through the night...heck, she's not sleeping through the hour!"

Friend is also pregnant and I know this also affects how agreeably she feels about the night-waking.


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## bendmom (Sep 4, 2003)

They are babies for only so long....


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## mamadawg (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bendmom*
They are babies for only so long....









Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking.

Actually, I took a lot of comfort in those words often when my twins were tiny. I was a first time mom with two babies who refused to nurse, who had severe colic, and who were horrible sleepers. I didn't know if it would ever end. I couldn't see anything logically or clearly in those early days. Those simple words "this too shall pass" brought my focus to the present moment and made me realize that everything is temporary and things would eventually get better.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quill*
With #3, who is just a little Budgie yet, I co-slept, but kept making efforts to put him in his own bed. One night, it worked. So, I kept doing it. I also use a pacifier, because I don't want to be one. He only wakes at night 2ice tops. I don't know what will happen as time goes on; maybe I'll get lucky and we will continue well from here. Maybe it will not continue as it has been.

(I like "little Budgie."







)

This is more like the NCSS approach--you just keep doing it gently until it takes. Twice a night isn't much if you cosleep, but it must be more of a pain for you.

Quote:

I think with AP, poor sleep is generally regarded as a problem that mom just has to suck up. I don't agree. Poor sleep affect the children; I can see that with my own eyes. So, I don't think you can just blow off sleep and say, "My kid is HN."
I disagree, I think AP moms rely on cosleeping to ensure that they and their babes get enough sleep...and if that doesn't work well, we don't know what to do! For me, it has mainly worked pretty well. I think non-AP moms are also tired, though. At least, this is my impression from playgroup.

Quote:

I've read NCSS; I bought that book when I was pg with #3, a baby whom I lost at birth.
I'm sorry.

Quote:

The friend I mentioned, though, borrowed that book and didn't find it helpful. The only thing that is helping my friend is to force the issue and yes, it is involving a lot of crying.
Well you know it doesn't work for sure if you don't try it. If you read the book and say "It's too slow, I'm pregnant and need sleep NOW" sure, then the book won't work. But it _is_ an AP solution that is not "this shall pass."

Doesn't Dr. Jay Gordon also have a gentle night weaning procedure?

I just think you are assuming that AP is all about cliches. No, _message boards_ are all about cliches.







_AP_ is all about physical closeness promoting emotional security and resilience.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

I've never found "This too shall pass" to be a particularly AP response to problems. Almost every older generation woman I know has said this to me at one time or another. But I do agree with the op that it's not particularly helpful to hear when you're in the midst of all-night nursing and losing your mind. Where did this idea come from that night-weaning a 2-year-old is somehow "forbidden AP" though? Dang, I tried NCSS but it just didn't work for us, so we went cold turkey and he was going back to sleep on his own in 3 relatively painless nights. People reach their limits with toddlers and gotta do what they've gotta do.

"TTSP" doesn't really bother me. The cliche that really burns my biscuits is, "It all goes so fast." Man, if I had a $ for every time I've heard this one we wouldn't have to worry about college savings. The fact is that when you're in the thick of it, it DOESN'T go fast at all! Those days with an infant and toddler can be endless. Sure, five years later you can look back on it and say that now, in retrospect, it seems to have gone quickly. But telling someone still in the trenches how fast it goes always strikes me as patronizing. (Even though I know that people who say this don't mean to be.)


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

I don't mind "this too shall pass" at all.

With less than 9 months of parenting under my belt, I already know how long a night or three of sleep troubles, or how long a full day of teething (he got 8 teeth in just over 2 months) can seem, and reminding myself that it WILL pass is very helpful.

"I think with AP, poor sleep is generally regarded as a problem that mom just has to suck up."

I don't agree with that statement. I think that if there's something going on in the house where the baby and the parents aren't getting sleep, that something needs to change until rest is being had. If it's the parents' attitudes, that needs to change. If the parents aren't watching the baby and letting him go to sleep when he's sleepy, that needs to change. IMO sleep troubles are either something physically wrong with the baby (teething, gas, discomfort of some kind) or the way the parents are approaching the situation. If the parent is working and needs their night-time sleep but the baby is a day sleeper, well, that's not the baby's fault...

I know that in my own life, my personal sleep needs weren't met; they were molded to what my mom needed, and just this month I realized how messed up my sleep has been and still is. If my mom (could have) let me figure out my own sleep I would likely have chosen a different way, and wouldn't be the borderline insomniac (afraid to miss anything) that I am today. Lucky for my brother, his sleep needs met hers exactly, and he never had any problems. Lucky kid.

"The cliche that really burns my biscuits is, "It all goes so fast."....telling someone still in the trenches how fast it goes always strikes me as patronizing."

I don't agree with that, either. In fact, SO many people telling me that it will go by fast actually helped me! Yes, when you're in the middle of something it feels one way (slow) and then suddenly your kid has 8 teeth (actually he has 7 due to an awful highchair/table accident before xmas) and is about to walk...if you weren't aware that it was going to go fast, if you didn't take the time to treasure each moment (even the sucky ones), then you've missed them. I'm very very glad for everyone telling me to savor every minute b/c it goes by so fast...they helped me keep a mental scrapbook.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

You sound really frustrated.
It can be hard not to get what you feel is a helpful answer when you are frustrated. Things usually do pass and that is good to remember but its not a solution.

I have a 4 year old with sleep issues- she slept much better as a baby- and get more annoyed with helpful advice which truly might work for some kids but we've already tried just about everything short of sleeping pills. This too shall pass doesn't really bug me as much as advice that assumes we haven't really tried any of the obvious things.

I got annoyed with people who told me that "oh, it's such a wonderful age" when it all felt like hell to me. It was devastating to think those were supposed to be the good times.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

sorry, double posted


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quill*
I think with AP, poor sleep is generally regarded as a problem that mom just has to suck up. I don't agree. Poor sleep affect the children; I can see that with my own eyes. So, I don't think you can just blow off sleep and say, "My kid is HN."

I disagree. I think that AP is more accepting of *normal* sleep patterns for babies/young children and advocates patience while children grow into patterns that are more comfortable for us and techniques that will help us to cope with that process (co-sleeping being one). On the other hand, those who advocate CIO are not accepting of children's stages and expect them to conform to fit a parent's ideals much earlier than they are ready.

Sleep *problems* are another thing, entirely. A baby waking every 3 or 4 hours is not a problem. It may be for the parent, but, then, that's probably something they should have considered before having children.

As for "this too shall pass": I've found it extremely comforting. When my son and I are having issues, I tend to get way too entrenched in them and experience them as my total reality. I start to see them as permanent - as though this is what parenting is and will be forever. It's pretty damned depressing. When I hear from mothers and fathers who have had similar experiences (and at similar ages, no less) and have come out the other end, it helps me to realize that this is only a brief portion of reality. They're like little trigger words that snap me out of my funk.

Quote:

It's not easy to sit there at playgroup with this other mom who trained all her babies to sleep through the night by 9 weeks old and go, "Oh, but AP is so much more _loving_ !"
No, it's really not. But fitting in isn't really a good reason to adopt a parenting practice that might be damaging to a child. At least I don't think so.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

I really loved Dragonfly and Dar`s post!









I actually find great comfort in this cliche. "This too shall" pass is to me a great comfort, and in times of need it reassures me that someone actually HAS lived thru this stage.









I am really sorry for the mamas that are very sleepdeprived. It sucks. Big time.

But most of the time I don`t agree with calling it sleep"problems". Because most of the time it is just a normal, cosleeping babys sleeppattern.


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
\









I HATE HATE HATE hearing those words!!!!!! Even seeing them typed makes me want to rip off the posters arms and beat them with their own arms! I swear... it makes the anxious moment ten times worse!

Me too! I don't mind so much when someone posts that they have the same problem but no advice; as then at least I feel some commiseration, yk? But I hate "this too shall pass" and "they'll grow out of it", not helpful in the least, pretty darn condesending actually.

Kristi


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

The effects of sleep deprevation on the brain is akin to brain damage (temporary, of course). It also has terrible and long term effects on the body (there is, for example, a correlation between averaging less than six hours a night and obesity).

I do think that the parents getting enough sleep when they have babies and todlers is extremely important. Co-sleeping is often part of the solution to this. Often other solutions need to be found (though cio alone would not be one of the possible solutions I would choose).

I don't believe AP is anti-parent. It is finding solutions that work for the entire family (baby and parents BOTH).

We tend to think in dualities (a fault of western cultrue). And on this board I sometimes see this scism (false) that says mainstream parenting is all about what is good for the parents and ap is all about what is good for the baby. Neither is true.


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## ComaWhite (Mar 13, 2003)

Maybe you are more likely to hear that here at mdc often, because ap'ers often have the opinion that hard and trying times in a childs life are just a part of their growth and part of your learning to be a parent. They are moments (however unpleasant at the time) of _life_ and sometimes there isnt some *thing* we can *do* or *say* to make it all better, or "fix" it. Sometimes we just have to get a small reminder to have ourselves be in the moment, and think to ourselves _"this too shall pass"_ ....


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## Quill (Feb 17, 2005)

See, there's a characterization that speaks as if I'm talking about a hard week, or how it is with a newborn. I'm not. I'm talking about nighttime habits that are *chronically* disruptive to the whole family. And lasting for years.

I think even most mainstream moms can accept the fact that with a newborn, you may be awakened every hour. That sometimes, they are teething or sick and you're just going to watch more Ronco midnight infomercials than you ordinarily would. I'm not talking about that...indeed, that does pass pretty quickly. Eight newborn weeks passes, colic passes, teething for three nights passes. I'm talking about having major difficulty putting kids to sleep, or keeping them asleep, ongoing for several months or even years. I know there are such cases, I read about them all the time, have been one of them and have been watching my friend go through this for a very long time.

For myself, co-sleeping (beyond newborn) is not an answer. I personally don't want to have kids in my bed for the next decade. I also don't like supine nursing; I only do that when we have a truly awful night and I fear I might drop baby nursing upright.

mamawannabe, ITA that AP is not just about good for the baby and mainstream is not just about good for the parents; there is much overlap.

Beleive me, I have a lot of perspective on what is really terrible and what is temporary. I have a child I can only visit at graveside. I can savor a midnight nursing with the Budgie; I am so grateful for the priviledge. But that notwithstanding, I think mothers need real answers when they have real problems. And, IME, when they are posting that they feel like they are going to jump off a bridge, that's a real problem that begs a real solution.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quill*
See, there's a characterization that speaks as if I'm talking about a hard week, or how it is with a newborn. I'm not. I'm talking about nighttime habits that are *chronically* disruptive to the whole family. And lasting for years.

I think even most mainstream moms can accept the fact that with a newborn, you may be awakened every hour. That sometimes, they are teething or sick and you're just going to watch more Ronco midnight infomercials than you ordinarily would. I'm not talking about that...indeed, that does pass pretty quickly. Eight newborn weeks passes, colic passes, teething for three nights passes. I'm talking about having major difficulty putting kids to sleep, or keeping them asleep, ongoing for several months or even years. I know there are such cases, I read about them all the time, have been one of them and have been watching my friend go through this for a very long time.

For myself, co-sleeping (beyond newborn) is not an answer. I personally don't want to have kids in my bed for the next decade. I also don't like supine nursing; I only do that when we have a truly awful night and I fear I might drop baby nursing upright.

mamawannabe, ITA that AP is not just about good for the baby and mainstream is not just about good for the parents; there is much overlap.

Beleive me, I have a lot of perspective on what is really terrible and what is temporary. I have a child I can only visit at graveside. I can savor a midnight nursing with the Budgie; I am so grateful for the priviledge. But that notwithstanding, I think mothers need real answers when they have real problems. And, IME, when they are posting that they feel like they are going to jump off a bridge, that's a real problem that begs a real solution.

Well, Quill, I've been on mothering a while, and while it is rare that a mama will post a thread about some baby/child problem (no matter how temporary or chronic) and NOT get at least one "this will pass," it is also rare (rare to never, actually) that that is all they will get. It is the VERY rare thread that the mama doesn't get practical, pragmatic advice.

So I guess I'm wondering what the issue is for you. I agree that "it shall pass" is annoying, but it certainly isn't replacing real, pragmatic advice in any one thread (and you'll easily get 5 suggestions to 'every this shall pass'.)

Is something else bothering you? On the whole are you finding ap too passive a parenting philosophy for your temperment?


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## poppyqwn (Jan 5, 2005)

While I HATE cliches, I have adopted "this to shall pass" as my daily mantra. (That and "this isn't the life I ordered!") The one that gets me everytime is "If I knew then what I know now...."







That one boils my blood everytime I hear it. That is the same impression I get from your orginal post. That it just gets under your skin. Obviously when people offer it as advice they are trying to help. I think most of the time it is when they are trying to say they understand your frustrations. Like when "helpful" people tell me I have got my hands full when they see me out with my 3 ( 3 months, 16months, 6 years) I am usually wearing the two little ones so "duh"







: is what I want to say. I just smile and walk on.

As far AP moms just learning to suffer without sleep.







I can't disagree more. I think being AP has helped me sleep more than I would if I was mainstream. I was AP and didn't know it with my first. I don't think I actually put him down for the first year. I carried him all the time, he slept in my arms and in my bed, until he asked to get in his own bed at around a year. That is when he quit nursing as well.
My second, well, he hasn't ever slept a full night. He still wakes more frequently than his infant brother. He doesn't nurse (for a variety of reasons, I wished he would.) but he is up constantly. This may be associated with some sensory issues we are having him evaluted for. Also my 23 year old brother has NEVER NEVER in 23 years of life slept a full night. My poor mom, she just tells me some kids are like that. (but between us, he definately has sensory issues!) So not that any of the "some kids are like that" or "talk to your dr." are cliches so much, it is standard advice. "This to shall pass" falls into that catagory I think. But AP and co-sleeping does help me to get sleep with him. I can comfort him with out having to put my feet on the floor most of the time. He is just happy I am there at the other end of the bed. I can get to him before he completely wakes and comfort and settle him while only half awake. We BOTH get alot more sleep that when I try to go back to my room without him.
Little number 3 just follows suit he gets up once and nurses back to sleep and I don't have to move.
Oh and the NCSS was a great book but didn't work for us with my little middle. It had some great tips there tho!









Back to the cliche answer, I think that alot of it could be that if it is a pretty standard parenting roadblock it has been asked and answered more than a few times. If you do a search you can find jsut about every topic asked and answered a bunch. So if you post the same question I personally think that a search has already been done and most of the advice I would give would just be echoing the same answers. Thus enter "This to shall pass". An old stand by of I have nothing to add, but I feel your pain.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quill*
See, there's a characterization that speaks as if I'm talking about a hard week, or how it is with a newborn. I'm not. I'm talking about nighttime habits that are *chronically* disruptive to the whole family. And lasting for years.

Lasting for years? That wasn't the impression that I got from your examples (you and your friend both using CIO when your babies were a few months old), but if that's actually the case then, yes, there might be a problem that needs to be addressed.

As for your personal preferences, it sounds like you have chosen to establish boundaries that hinder you from fully putting AP into practice. And that's fine, if it's what works in your life. I'm not sure I'm fully understanding, though, why those chosen boundaries are impacting your view of AP as a philosophy.

I guess those of us who don't mind the adage so much are saying that sometimes remembering that "this too shall pass" IS part of the solution. When I know that there is an end in sight, I feel a little less like jumping off of a bridge (and believe me when I tell you I've been there). Hearing it also reminds me that some things in parenting that can drive me to the brink of insanity (if I let them) are actually developmental stages. I'm not the most patient or tolerant person, after all. When I am reminded of this, I can step back and check my own expectations of how things should be happening. I usually realize that they're way off.

And, as mamawanabe said, it's rare that it's not vastly outweighed by practical advice. In fact, I don't know if I've ever seen it sitting out there all by itself.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Since we've moved on to sleep issues and "This too shall pass" I'll tell you that the phrase _still_ gets me through to the next day.

Dd1 is 4 and has always been a horrible sleeper. She sleeps better with us than by herself. She falls asleep in her own bed but is back with us by morning. Some AP sleep training (playing dead, for example) taught her that we would not get up and play with her . . .but she still didn't sleep. She just learned to sit quietly or play by herself. Hopefully by the time she outgrows nightmares she'll be staying in her own room all night. For now it's something to celebrate when she does. She has SID and that is probably part of her sleep problems.

Dd2 is 1 and has some health issues that cause her to reflux and sometimes vomit at night. She is a crib sleeper (her choice) and although she goes to sleep and stays to sleep when she's feeling well, the other 75% of the time we are up to pat her and clean up vomit at least 5 times a night. She's fed by stomach tube so even if she kicks loudly I am up to see if she's tangled in the tubing or just having a dream.

It sucks.

But this too shall pass.

Five years from now I hope that dh and I are getting better sleep. For now we just cope and say our favorite mantra. It's my link to sanity at times.

I feel that sometimes gentle parenting advice should be offered to another mama _if she asks for it_, but sometimes there is no solution and just offering support or understanding, or "I've been there and it's hard" is worth a lot.

Darshani


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## mountain (Dec 12, 2001)

My own mantra is "yum"
















You want to rip appendages off people, edamommy? :LOL I noticed you had frustrations, but wow.

Yeah, I don't think this is the right place to be if you're NOT looking for support to keep following attachment parenting theories.

What are people looking for? "Oh, go take a magic pill and your baby will not ________." "Turn them clockwise on the bed in a full moon seven times."

There's no fricking magical solution. There's only hard work and love. I'm here to support you if you're going to do the work rather than leave your child to cry alone & desperate. That's bullshit, it doesn't "work". You get your sleep when your babies are grown, and in the meantime, you get to actually care for them when they need you.

So, This Too Shall Pass

Cliches don't become cliches because no one ever needed them. Sorry if you don't like me saying it or think support is "condescending" (???) You ask for support & there is the truth--sometimes you just gotta get through it.

Yum.


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## Quill (Feb 17, 2005)

dragonfly, my friend's child is 2 _years_ old, so yes, I'm saying lasting for years. I don't know many AP mamas IRL (I live in the uptight northeast!







), but the ones I know have had chronic sleep issues with at least one child. One had night-waking (EVERY night) 5-y-olds TWICE. (That's 10 years worth of night waking and now she has 2 more kids.) One reported sleep issues with her now-7-y-o for 4 or so years and is now having a repeat with her 2 yo. And there's the 2yo from my OP. So I'm talking about long-term, not a few bad nights now and then.

wannabe, your question is very thought-provoking. It is true, I would characterize myself as solution-oriented, very idealistic, so it's not in my character to accept crappy IF a solution exists that I can philosophically accept. I feel like AP is somewhat bait-and-switch, particularly Sear's books. He talks about co-sleeping benefits, like synchronized cycles. But my true window into the realities of AP come through reading what actual AP moms post on-line and those few I know IRL.

The longer I'm a mother the more I feel like I agree with the underlying idea of AP (respecting the child as an individual), but not many of the practices of AP. Surely not every child with sleep issues is simply allergic to dairy, or teething or developmentally growing. There is something to be said about which behaviors you reinforce and which you extinguish. I'm not advocating strict behaviorism, but I think you need to keep reinforcement in the back of your mind.

I'm sorry if there is actually a lot of concrete help given on this board and I've not seen it; I don't come to this particular board often. Usually the ideas I see seem to me a band-aid that only postpones truly correcting the problem and making it even more difficult to correct later. For example, "I don't know what to do! DS only falls asleep if I hold him for upwards of an hour, and that's after nursing him for an hour! He weighs 25 lbs. and I really can't physically carry him much longer!" To which: "Get a backpack hiker! You can use them up to 75 lbs.! I just do my housework 10:00 pm with kiddo in the hiker and eventually, he falls asleep." That kind of thing.

Sometimes I'm sorry I ever heard of AP. *sigh*

P.S. My example there is hypothetical; I'm not citing anybody's post from this or another board.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

The only ap mother I know in real life has had no sleep issues with her son (who is four and still co-sleeps - an arrangement they are both happy with).

No one talks about what works, they only talk about what isn't working. Ap doesn't cause sleep problems; some people are just prone to them. I come from a family of bad sleepers (mom, dad, sister, all have insomnia problems). I was a cio baby, but beginning in 1st grade I has SERIOUS sleep anxiety (I so was terrified of not being able to fall asleep at night that I would get knots in my stomach and start crying as bedtime approached); I always assumed this anxiety (which lasted for two years and then reappeared for a year in 5th grade) had to do with CIO (that in babyhood I must have formed negative associations of lying in bed not able to fall asleep). But even now, I NEVER sleep through the night (I wake several times) and I always take 30 minutes to fall asleep at least.

So I think you are wrong here that ap is assosicated with sleep issues more than other methods. Which doesn't mean that co-sleeping is the best method for your family. And which doesn't mean that you need to turn to ap's antithesis - cio. If Dr. Sears's version of AP isn't the philosophy for you, find something else, like continum concept. Or make your own up based on what you've seen and experienced and read. You can still have reasonable boundaries on your practices (no CIO by themself, for example) while exploring options that might work.

But know that on every messageboard you are going to get a lot of DIFFERENT advice. You will get some "just stick with it, who needs to sleep anyway" and you are going to get some "try moving her into a bed adjacent to you and hold her hand as she gets herself back to sleep." It seems to me you are a little mad at AP right now (which is ok), but this anger means you are reading threads selectively. As any OP knows, threads get all kinds of useless and all kinds of useful responses.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

mamawanabe said:


> The only ap mother I know in real life has had no sleep issues with her son (who is four and still co-sleeps - an arrangement they are both happy with).
> /QUOTE]
> 
> **The ONLY parents I really know in person are mainstream parents. They DO NOT sleep w/ their babes and never have. I canname 20 different families and they all reprort that their babies slept thru the night around 6months and ON. ALL OF THEM!?!?! Of course, none of these families bf'd, either. But, damn... I cannot imagine how much better MY life would have been had we just stuck this little bugger in his own crib, shut him up w/ a paci and closed the door at 6months! lol. Oh well, at least HIS life is better because of our situation. I think.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I apoligize if I've ever used this cliche and pissed someone off. Or words that convey the same sentiment. I haven't meant to trivialize what other mamas are going through. Really I haven't.

I've used the sentiment because when I look back, I *wish* I had recognized that the hard things do eventually pass. Yes, maybe it takes 3 or 4 years, and yes, maybe the next kid starts up with it where the first one leaves off.... but I remember feeling so bogged down and never even thinking to myself that someday -- I wouldn't be in that position anymore.

I just wish that *I* had realized things pass, and that *MY* perspective had been a little broader back then... so I offer it where I think it might help. It never occured to me that it would make anyone feel worse.


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## Quill (Feb 17, 2005)

mamawannabe,

Yep, that is pretty much what I've come to...I express my parenting according to what I believe works and what doesn't. Some of it looks like AP, some of it doesn't. I don't get sore so much about my own parenting; I internalize the frustrations of others when they get a result they didn't bargain for when they read Sears' books. And sometimes I get a little sad that I don't really "fit" anywhere. I'm too crunchy for the mainstreamers and too mainstream for the "real" APers.

All the "mainstreamers" I know have children who sleep/slept through the night pretty much by 6 months. Some did it by force, some didn't. I tend to disagree that night-waking is "normal" for 2, 3 or more years. I think it's a common outcome with AP lifestyle, but not normal. If it was developmentally inappropriate for babies to sleep through the night at, say, 6 months, it wouldn't be possible to make them. Just like you couldn't make a 2 month old walk or eat a steak. There's no possible way to "train" them to do something that is truly developmentally inappropriate. So, I do think that it is reasonable to expect little to no night-waking by 6 months. OTOH, if one is content enough with it going on for a longer time, because of strong belief in co-sleeping or nursing on-demand, than that is their prerogative. It's the ones who are not happy with how their lives look and feel they can't change it because doing something different is "non-AP" - those are the cases that get my panties in a bunch.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quill*
I tend to disagree that night-waking is "normal" for 2, 3 or more years. I think it's a common outcome with AP lifestyle, but not normal. .

I asked this question on the Nighttime parenting board, but no responses.
What is "night-waking"? Honest question. Does this mean that a child wakes and calls for mama? Or wakes and comes to parents? Or wakes and can not/will not go back to sleep?


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## Meli65 (Apr 29, 2002)

Quote:

If it was developmentally inappropriate for babies to sleep through the night at, say, 6 months, it wouldn't be possible to make them.
Ooh, I totally disagree with this statement. You can "make" babies and toddlers do a lot of things (drink nasty-tasting formula, eat cereal at six weeks, stop crying after doing so for hours, "sleep" through the night, potty-train at 12 months etc.) and people have and continue to do so, but I can't see how this is possibly "developmentally appropriate."

Biologically speaking, babies and children sleep with their mothers all over the world for two or three years, right? And are usually nursing the whole time? To my mind, what is developmentally appropriate is what is biologically appropriate


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Somewhere in T. Berry Brazelton's books he wrotes about research on early walking, and how researchers got a really tiny baby walking. At 4 months, perhaps? Young. They "trained" her. It worked, she was walking, although jerkily and not like a usual baby who walks naturally.

Cruel research, but it shows that it is completely possible to train a child to do something earlier or young than is developmentally normal. It's really no more cruel than CIO. I have similar feelings about forcing small children to read...

Of course, some babies will walk young, others will sleep through the night young, and some small children will read - and although "early", it will be the right time for them. I'm specifically talking about the ones who were pushed.

Dar


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## mamaliss (Sep 25, 2003)

All I can say is you girls are very lucy to have this board.when my kids were small I had NO support!


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quill*
Are there really any answers? Or is nursing all night long or waking a half-dozen times for the next few years the answer?

What's so wrong with that answer? I've found that usually when I perceive problems, that it is my perception of things as a problem that is the real issue. It helps me tremendously to know that other parents have gone through the same thing, and that it's a stage that won't last very long. Those cliche answers you hate so much give me the strength and courage to look at things in a new way, to not perceive as a problem something that is actually just normal baby/toddler/child behavior for that particular stage. When I change how I react to situations, it makes it lots easier to deal. When I ignore those people who think nursing to sleep is a problem, I realize I don't really have a problem. It seems most of my "problems" in parenting have stemmed from unrealistic expectations of either my child or myself, and all I needed was someone to remind me that if I don't see it as a problem, there is no problem.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:

Are there really any answers? Or is nursing all night long or waking a half-dozen times for the next few years the answer?
It isn't *the* answer, that is an extreme. I am sorry if you do not feel you have read very good solutions on this board but this board is about being parents. No one said it would be easy and there are no magic pills or perfect solutions that work everytime.

Yeah, I have a four year old that usually wakes one time each night. She has night terrors. I feel it would be barbaric to expect my child to scream in the dark when she needs me. I never resent her waking me, I am supposed to be her protector. If I do not go to her, who is going to keep the monsters away?

I find monsters to be more of a concern than me sleeping through the night. Yeah, the monsters will eventually go away but for now well..I will go ahead and play monster hunter, I can't imagine anything better I could be doing.

Children are not going to stop needing their parents, it is just not going to happen. I understand some people do not wish to care for their children 24-7 but this board is not for them.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quill*
All the "mainstreamers" I know have children who sleep/slept through the night pretty much by 6 months. Some did it by force, some didn't. I tend to disagree that night-waking is "normal" for 2, 3 or more years. I think it's a common outcome with AP lifestyle, but not normal. If it was developmentally inappropriate for babies to sleep through the night at, say, 6 months, it wouldn't be possible to make them. Just like you couldn't make a 2 month old walk or eat a steak. There's no possible way to "train" them to do something that is truly developmentally inappropriate. So, I do think that it is reasonable to expect little to no night-waking by 6 months. OTOH, if one is content enough with it going on for a longer time, because of strong belief in co-sleeping or nursing on-demand, than that is their prerogative. It's the ones who are not happy with how their lives look and feel they can't change it because doing something different is "non-AP" - those are the cases that get my panties in a bunch.

If you go back a generation or two, you will find that solids were recommended at a very young age (many starting at just a few weeks). Science has since discovered that babies' digestive systems are not developed enough to properly digest solids until at least four months of age. That doesn't mean that you can't get babies to eat solids. As others have pointed out, the logic that says that you can't make babies do something that is developmentally inappropriate is very very flawed.

Many children night-wake for much longer than 2 or 3 years, and it has nothing to do with AP. My husband recalls being at least six and waking in the middle of the night and trying to get into his parents' room to sleep with them. In his case, his father locked him out of the room. My little sister woke up for at least 7 years nearly every night and went into my parent's room. I recall having nightmares at 11 and going to sleep with my mother to feel comforted. Parents are supposed to protect their children, even against imagined threats. We do it all the time under our own illusions (abduction, razors in halloween candy), why is it so difficult to accept that our children have needs that though may seem unwarranted to us, are really truly needs in their minds be that a need to not be eaten by an imaginary monster or a need to feel safe and comfortable upon waking in the dark? What is so unreasonable about that? I think that perhaps your perception has a lot to do with your having difficulty with this.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quill*
I think mothers need real answers when they have real problems. And, IME, when they are posting that they feel like they are going to jump off a bridge, that's a real problem that begs a real solution.

Perhaps a message board is not the place for that then. This is an online bulletin board of people giving free advice--most of it is thoughtfully given and probably done when people could be doing lots and lots of other things (like sleeping!







).

No one here is responsible for solving other people's parenting issues.

If you ask for advice and don't like what's given, that's fine. Seek out a professional maybe. Jan Hunt is one of many who do phone consulations for a fee.

I often need to be reminded that "this" will pass--perspective is a great thing for me.


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## Quill (Feb 17, 2005)

IME, nursing all night long is not good for my child. Forget that it would be at least occassionally annoying to me. If he nurses and I fall asleep and leave him there, he swallows a lot of air and gets very gassy. He throws up. He screams. OTOH, if I nurse him in a chair for a while, burp him when he's done and put him back to bed, he goes to sleep and is content. It makes me wonder about the "colicky" behavior of my first-born, who nursed all night, every night.

IM observation, older infants and toddlers/preschoolers who wake every night and/or don't nap get inadequate amounts of sleep. It's very plain in their behavior. But Mom will make endless excuses about the behavior: they're teething, they're going through a phase, they were sick a little while ago and - my favorite - they are "high needs".

As I've said, I'm not saying from 6 months on, they should never darken my bedroom door from 8:00pm till 6:00 am every night. Course they do teethe, they do fall ill, toddlers have nightmares. Of course comfort your baby/child for these things. But that is not the same thing as night-waking every night for several years.

I define night-waking as waking at night, whether nursing back to sleep works or they stay up for hours, although the later is surely more damaging to the child, parent and family.

I see sleep-training (and although I could accept some crying, I don't necessarily mean crying must be involved) as any other aspect of parenting I must work on in order to have a healthy, decent, happy child. For example, I require that they do their schoolwork. I hs, so I have some freedoms to make their work interesting to them and tailor it to their needs. But beyond that, they just need to do it. So I guess I see parenting successfully the same way I see other relationships. I respect one's individuality, and I also honor my own. I give and I require.

I believe there are some things that you can do that DON'T INVOLVE CRYING that will lead babies to sleep through the night and nap well every night, every day, save for very occassional times such as illness. It's not like there's only two options: have them in your bed nursing for years OR toss 'em in a crib and don't go back till morning, no matter what. But these things are also not well thought of in AP communities. I suspect a lot of otherwise AP moms have discovered these things, but (like me) they won't say them on an AP board because of the outcry against them if they do.


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## malibusunny (Jul 29, 2003)

i sometimes really do need reminding.







to me, night weaning is no more a solution for exhaustion than abortion was for sciatica. sometimes, time really is the only answer.


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## mountain (Dec 12, 2001)

Of course there's other things you can do than nurse when your child wakes up during the night...

My 3 yo is down to two nursings, to keep her healthy. When she wakes up at night, I tell her, "wait till it's light out please", and hold her & snuggle her until she goes back to sleep. We've gotten to the point where she sleeps until it's light out...which I need after my 7+ years of nursing children.

I don't see how you could explain that to a little baby, but you could hold them so they are comforted. Nursing on demand I think is mandatory for infants, they should not have to be hungry & it only helps your milk supply.

I had a no BS kind of friend who just EXPECTED to get no sleep when her babies were born (she had 4). She couldn't understand why people complained about it so much, she just expected it so she wasn't disappointed. I







her.


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## laralou (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *malibusunny*
i sometimes really do need reminding.







to me, night weaning is no more a solution for exhaustion than abortion was for sciatica. sometimes, time really is the only answer.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quill*
IM observation, older infants and toddlers/preschoolers who wake every night and/or don't nap get inadequate amounts of sleep. It's very plain in their behavior. But Mom will make endless excuses about the behavior: they're teething, they're going through a phase, they were sick a little while ago and - my favorite - they are "high needs"......

I define night-waking as waking at night, whether nursing back to sleep works or they stay up for hours, although the later is surely more damaging to the child, parent and family.
.

If night waking is simple "waking at night", then I would disagree that this is not normal for a preschooler--or a person of any age. We all have sleep cycles--they are normal and healthy. We all rouse to light phases of sleep, or semi-wakefulness, during the course of the night...happening more frequently toward morning (long stretches of deep sleep in the beginning of night).

Now, eventually we all are able to get ourselves back to sleep without help. Are you objecting to a preschooler needing help getting back to sleep at night? I know lots of parents who do not officially cosleep, but find their preschoolers in the marital bed with them in the morning







. I would say that those are clever kiddos who figured out how to get those "back to sleep" cuddles without crying for mom or dad. But I think it is very normal for a person (any person) to want someone to snuggle with in bed.

Why do you single out "high needs"? Do you not believe that some children have higher needs for physical comfort than others? Some cosleeping families find (to their surprise) that their baby prefers to sleep alone--all kids really are different. Why couldn't some of these kids not actually have high needs?


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## thoesly (Dec 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
Why do you single out "high needs"? Do you not believe that some children have higher needs for physical comfort than others? Some cosleeping families find (to their surprise) that their baby prefers to sleep alone--all kids really are different. Why couldn't some of these kids not actually have high needs?

Just want to echo this. Someone pointed out on a thread not long ago that sleep issues and special needs (including "high needs") *are* linked -- often in physical ways as well as emotional ones.

I'm another big fan of the "this too shall pass" perspective. But since I tend to hang out with a group facing issues that *won't* pass (my son's autism, my friend's child with Down Syndrome), anything that is as fleeting as 2-3 years seems trivial by comparison. (Note the "by comparison" -- I'm not saying lack of sleep is a trivial matter)


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quill*
So I guess I see parenting successfully the same way I see other relationships. I respect one's individuality, and I also honor my own. I give and I require.

I believe there are some things that you can do that DON'T INVOLVE CRYING that will lead babies to sleep through the night and nap well every night, every day, save for very occassional times such as illness. It's not like there's only two options: have them in your bed nursing for years OR toss 'em in a crib and don't go back till morning, no matter what. But these things are also not well thought of in AP communities. I suspect a lot of otherwise AP moms have discovered these things, but (like me) they won't say them on an AP board because of the outcry against them if they do.


I just do not agree.

People do not post to the nightwaking forum with concerns when everything is going well...so you really only get one side of the issue.

My dd wakes at least ONCE every night and I am not sure I ever posted that this bothered me. I always knew that a child had nighttime needs and it never actually occurred to me that some people who have had children might take issue with this. I had never even heard of such things as CIO or anything remotely like it until I started posting to parenting boards. When I did hear of it, frankly, it sounded barbaric to me.

I clearly recall having bad dreams as a child and my dad getting up with me and giving me chocolate milk and discussing my dream and how scary it was. I adore my father and remember those moments with him in the middle of the night *very* clearly.

Do I want my child to remember being alone in the dark or do I want my child to remember me holding them or talking to them about their fears?

I just *don't* get the nighttime parenting issue, I just cannot understand. I am sorry but it just does not make sense to me. I am really trying to be polite but I just don't get why it is such a huge contraversy to care for your children at night.

I just cannot relate.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abimommy*
I just don't get why it is such a huge contraversy to care for your children at night.
.

This is such a powerful and affirming statement for me to read.

My 4 yo (yes, 4), wakes once a night nearly every night and calls me. I go to her, and we finish the night snuggling in her bed (gives me half a night alone with dh







). We love this arrangement, and I never thought of it as "abnormal" until this thread. (maybe a bit unconventional, but not abnormal).

This morning, I woke up alone in my own bed and was confused. Dh had gone to work. Dd had never called me. I was lonely







And then I had to run to dd's room to make sure she was ok


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## laralou (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quill*
I believe there are some things that you can do that DON'T INVOLVE CRYING that will lead babies to sleep through the night and nap well every night, every day, save for very occassional times such as illness. It's not like there's only two options: have them in your bed nursing for years OR toss 'em in a crib and don't go back till morning, no matter what. But these things are also not well thought of in AP communities. I suspect a lot of otherwise AP moms have discovered these things, but (like me) they won't say them on an AP board because of the outcry against them if they do.


I have gladly said on several forums here that I quit cosleeping (unless they nightwake) with my twins at 16 months. I discovered after several nights of abandoning the bed for the couch that, unless I am there ,they don't wake to nurse. I was not interested in forcibly nightweaning, so they now sleep in cribs. They are put to sleep in my bed and transfered after they are out cold (if they wake up in the transfer we just start the process over). If they wake before morning (which is incredibly rare) I go get them and bring them to my bed to nurse. At least once a week we have a family bed night where we all sleep in our bed and they usually nurse at least once or twice. And if they are sick they automatically sleep with mommy and nurse all night. But I never ever ever let my children CIO to accomplish that. It works for me. I feel that I am attending my children's needs and getting enough sleep so I am not an ogre.

Is that what you want to hear? I am just not clear from your posts, Quill, what you are wanting people to say. Do you want people to say it is ok to CIO or not meet their child's needs because it might interfere with mama's sleep? Are you just wanting them to tell you how they do it while still practicing AP? Or are you just wanting an end to cliches which make you feel that they don't feel your pain?

I am not being sarcastic. I sincerely don't understand what you are wanting.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

monkey's mom said:


> This is an online bulletin board of people giving free advice--most of it is thoughtfully given and probably done when people could be doing lots and lots of other things (like sleeping!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Quill (Feb 17, 2005)

It's fine...I'm just venting about AP and sleep. I don't see it as many of you do, and that's okay. I think AP is wrong about sleep and it just plain bugs me. If you (general you) aren't bothered by your sleep situation, that is fine. It's when people are bothered and they can't reconcile solving the problem with AP, that's when AP just disappoints me. I believe that elements of AP do create a far greater likelihood of sleep deprivation in kids; actually, there are studies that have shown this to be the case. But, I don't really need studies to know that, because I see it with my own eyes.

About high needs, before I go: I believe yes, children are all different and some have very "easy" personalities and some "difficult". I also believe that the most angelic personality becomes difficult with chronic lack of sleep. See, I don't think any person requires hours and hours less sleep than "average"; maybe an hour, but not hours and hours. So, I think it's sort of funny; the person with a "difficult" child looks at Sears' high-need description and Sears says they "need less sleep" and the parent is all, "Eureka! That's my kid! Cranky, clingy AND up all night!" I don't know why AP seems to put a premium on every need but sleep.

To the person who spoke of everyone waking in the night briefly (sorry, I forgot your name), this is not what I meant. Waking up and needing someone else to do something about it is not the same as waking up, adjusting your pillow and going back to sleep. I'm sure you knew I didn't mean the brief rousing that every person has during the night.

So, there is no point in my post, I can accept that. I posted it to think out loud, to hear what some have to say, but I suppose now I'm done. Many of you are very happy to be told that one day you will be able to sleep, and that is great; I'm glad that you have that long-range of a perspective. That is wonderful that you are that sacrificial and not bothered at all. I have realized that I am not. I'm more pragmatic than sacrificial. And probably more mainstream than AP. So, I'll see ya all later.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quill*
I believe that elements of AP do create a far greater likelihood of sleep deprivation in kids; actually, there are studies that have shown this to be the case.

What studies have shown this??? The sleep studies that I have read about have pointed out how co-sleeping helps infants learn to sleep properly, to regulate their breathing and their heartrate in time with their parent's, to avoid apnea and other sleep problems. So I'm left







at this.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quill*
To the person who spoke of everyone waking in the night briefly (sorry, I forgot your name), this is not what I meant. Waking up and needing someone else to do something about it is not the same as waking up, adjusting your pillow and going back to sleep. I'm sure you knew I didn't mean the brief rousing that every person has during the night.

Brief rousing for children, even children of mainstream parents, has as far as I've known, _always_ been a little more involved than adults, with the need for a drink of water, or the getting into bed with parents, even for older children. I've never met a person who didn't have this as a child. I'll have to ask around. Is that what you mean as more than just brief rousing? Even if it is a bit brief? Because to me, there's a huge difference between 10 minutes getting settled and going back to sleep and being fully awake and wanting to play at 2 in the morning, which, again, from the anecdotal evidence I've heard among both the AP and the mainstream set, also always occurrs at some point for all children. It's a pain, but you deal with it and move on. If it's recurring, then sure, there may be other issues at play. But you deal with it, without resorting to neglect or abandonment. It's not part of being a martyr, it's part of being a mother.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quill*
See, I don't think any person requires hours and hours less sleep than "average"; maybe an hour, but not hours and hours. So, I think it's sort of funny; the person with a "difficult" child looks at Sears' high-need description and Sears says they "need less sleep" and the parent is all, "Eureka! That's my kid! Cranky, clingy AND up all night!" I don't know why AP seems to put a premium on every need but sleep.

The thing is, high needs/special needs and sleep issues are often interrelated. Meaning, yes, sleep deprivation with exaccerbate the clinginess, difficulty....but the high need or special need also makes it particularly difficult to get the sleep that the child needs.

Also, it was me who asked about what "night waking" is. So, if it is normal for a child to wake at night (as an adult would wake, adjust, and go back to sleep), why is it so abnormal for a child to realize they are alone and want some comfort? Why should that comfort be denied?


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

One of my hobbies is reading about the Yanomami indians, who live in South America (and were in the past treated as virtual slaves by the Yequana, of Continuum Concept fame... but that's another issue).

The Yanomami sleep in hammocks hung inside a large communal structure, called a shabono. They have (until perhaps very recently) no artificial lighting, so "night" lasted 12 hours or so. During this time, some people sleep, others decide to wake and talk for a while, basically orating into the dark, loudly. Others get up and go out to pee (close by, at night). Others talk with each other. People generally wake and sleep throughout the night, every night, and this is what they see as normal. The idea of complaining that your sleep was "interupted" would never occur.

"Normal" is cultural, as weel as biological.

Dar


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

ok, I have to ask, Quill, if all of these problems we post about have been around for years, and most people have come out ok....hasn't it passed?

I do not mind. I take it for its worth. People trying to offer words of support and advice. Sometimes there is no answer, sometimes the answer you want is not the one you will hear, sometimes the answer is hard to hear, whatever the case.

Once a person acknowledges their issue and posts here or on any other AP site, that is not the end all. You need to be proactive in finding solutions to your problem. Asking people about their experience for advice is great, but people need to make the best decision for themself.

But no matter the decision, the problem will pass. You will sleep again, You will have your body back, you will have free time again, etc. So sure people rely on cliches, but it is just a way of offering support and advice. If you ask for it, be prepared for what people offer you. And take it for what its worth.


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## Quill (Feb 17, 2005)

annakiss,
Not that I worship the advice found in this particular book, but in the famous (or infamous) What to Expect series:

Page 186, The Third Month: (Under Sharing a Bed)
"Sleep problems: Probably the most significant for overtired parents is the fact that bed sharing seems to increase the incidence of sleep disorders in children. One study of those six months to four years of age showed that sleep problems were present in 50% of the co-sleepers, compares with only 15% of those who slept in their own beds; another showed that 35% of toddlers who slept with their parents had sleep problems compared to 7% of those who slept alone."

That is what I'm referring to by saying studies have shown.

I agree that there is a difference between brief rousing where children need, say, 10 minutes of interaction vs. up wide awake. Maybe I am just lucky, but I have only experienced the later version in a child over six months old about two times. Once with my now 7 yo, when she was around 18 months, which I remember completely. There are no other times that I recall, (other than illness) but I'm being generous and assuming maybe it happened one or two other times that I don't recall.

The former type, I-need-a-drink, I-had-a-nightmare (or as my son say, "My dream-catcher isn't working."







), of course we have those now and then. I don't mind those because they don't happen often and it's not that disruptive. It doesn't affect their health or mood; nor mine. That's way different from up every night, several times a night drinking a quart of milk through the night.

Night-waking to me then is persistent nocturnal wakings that are significant enough to disrupt the child, parent(s) and family integrity. And I've seen a lot of that on AP boards. Maybe, like I said, I am just lucky and - other than my 11-week-old - I haven't had any recurrent night-waking in 4 1/2 years. My kids go to bed at night at a routine time and I know that unless they are ill or have the rare nightmare, I will see them again around 7:00 am when they rise. I believe that is a norm easily achieved by every physically and emotionaly healthy child. And you don't have to be a cruel hard-nose to get it.

Dar,
I agree that normal is culturally defined. But of course, this is the culture in which we live. When I style my hair and choose my clothing and make my breakfast, I do what is normal for our culture. Only a sociopath or the mentally ill would be _completely_ unbound by cultural norms. So, sure, If a family is comfortable with the culturally non-normative behavior of having nights that look a lot like days as far as hours awake, intake of food, personal interaction go, then that is their choice. It isn't mine. I adhere pretty closely to USA cultural norms of sleep. And that is what I'm happy with.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quill*
Page 186, The Third Month: (Under Sharing a Bed)
"Sleep problems: Probably the most significant for overtired parents is the fact that bed sharing seems to increase the incidence of sleep disorders in children. One study of those six months to four years of age showed that sleep problems were present in 50% of the co-sleepers, compares with only 15% of those who slept in their own beds; another showed that 35% of toddlers who slept with their parents had sleep problems compared to 7% of those who slept alone."

That is what I'm referring to by saying studies have shown.

One study doesn't equal "studies."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quill*
I believe that is a norm easily achieved by every physically and emotionaly healthy child. And you don't have to be a cruel hard-nose to get it.

If uninterrupted sleep came so easily to babies and children why is there so much sleep training?

And if you have the solution, why aren't you recommending that to your friends who are having such trouble?

It doesn't sound like other people here are experiencing the dire AP-induced sleep problems you describe--that should relieve you.

I feel confused by this thread....


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quill*
Page 186, The Third Month: (Under Sharing a Bed)
"Sleep problems: Probably the most significant for overtired parents is the fact that bed sharing seems to increase the incidence of sleep disorders in children. One study of those six months to four years of age showed that sleep problems were present in 50% of the co-sleepers, compares with only 15% of those who slept in their own beds; another showed that 35% of toddlers who slept with their parents had sleep problems compared to 7% of those who slept alone."

I wonder what they were calling "sleep problems?"


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
I wonder what they were calling "sleep problems?"

Me too.

Also, this source is pretty biased.

And another thing...even if that one study is unbiased, it would only show correlation between cosleeping and sleep problems (whatever those are...), not causation. Meaning, maybe those kids with "sleep problems" tend to cosleep longer, because they derive comfort from it and it helps them sleep. That does not mean that cosleeping is causing sleep problems. It could very well mean that cosleeping is helping families with sleep problems. It could be that sleep problems are the very reason they cosleep.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Ooohhh...I have an example, too. My own parents! Totally NOT ap, but had very different nighttime parenting habits with my sister and me.

My sister (first born): horrible sleeper. from birth (like my dd). Parents had never even heard of the the concept of cosleeping, but cosleep they did! Out of necessity!
Sister still had sleep issues, but at least they were *getting* some sleep.

Then I was born: completely different temperament. Slept happily alone. I'm sure they did CIO, but I was the kind that adjusted quickly and slept happily in my crib.

Correlation between cosleeping and sleep problems? yes. Cosleeping cause the sleep problems? No.


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## Quill (Feb 17, 2005)

And if you have the solution, why aren't you recommending that to your friends who are having such trouble?

The IRL friend I mentioned - her child is too old. What I would do can only work from the beginning, not once you've been doing something different for two years.

On-line friends: because they don't want a non-AP solution. So, I might as well just shut my mouth; what I say is not what they are looking for. That's why I have asked in this thread if there is an AP solution.


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## thoesly (Dec 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
And another thing...even if that one study is unbiased, it would only show correlation between cosleeping and sleep problems (whatever those are...), not causation. Meaning, maybe those kids with "sleep problems" tend to cosleep longer, because they derive comfort from it and it helps them sleep. That does not mean that cosleeping is causing sleep problems. It could very well mean that cosleeping is helping families with sleep problems. It could be that sleep problems are the very reason they cosleep.

In case I haven't mentioned it before, I really like you!







This is exactly what I thought, and once again, you worded it perfectly!


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## thoesly (Dec 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quill*
That's why I have asked in this thread if there is an AP solution.

I've watched this thread from the beginning, but I missed the question in the venting (not snarking, just explaining). Yes, there are AP solutions, but they are more labor-intensive than the mainstream quick-fix. There are several listed in the Family Bed forum. Off the top of my head, the first things to look at are food allergies and magnesium supplementation (frequent night waking can be a sympton of deficiency). Next is Rescue Remedy and melatonin (what I've read says melatonin should only be used as a short-term fix -- it's popular in the autism community). Next is an attempt to track sleep patterns by keeping a detailed sleep diary for a couple of weeks. If there are patterns, there are methods to break them (I have a special needs sleep book with suggestions). The easiest one is to set an alarm to wake the child a few minutes prior to his "normal" nightwaking time. Messing with the time schedule "breaks" the habit after a few nights. Finally, there is homeopathy. I had to go this route with my daughter who has multiple special needs. Within 1 month of taking her to the homeopath, she went from waking several times a night to waking a few times a week. Shortly after our second homeopath visit (they are monthly), she was down to waking 3 or 4 times a month.

As many have said, lack of sleep is a part of parenthood (which I understand gets *worse* with the teenage years), but when it becomes a quality-of-life issue, there are methods that can be used without resorting to abusive practices. They just require more creativity and more work.


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## Quill (Feb 17, 2005)

thoesly,

Thanks, those are some very helpful suggestions. I especially like the one about waking them at a different time from their usual waking up time to break the habit.

And, just in a funny twist of fate, I thought it would be fun to tell you all that last night it was me with the baby and the 5-y-o in my bed and dh sleeping in my son's bed, because we are all sick!


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## thoesly (Dec 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quill*
thoesly,

Thanks, those are some very helpful suggestions. I especially like the one about waking them at a different time from their usual waking up time to break the habit.

And, just in a funny twist of fate, I thought it would be fun to tell you all that last night it was me with the baby and the 5-y-o in my bed and dh sleeping in my son's bed, because we are all sick!









I'm glad you found them useful. We've done the bed shuffle many times. We will do it again. The question of "where" everyone sleeps is unimportant if everyone *does* sleep!


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