# How young can they really Child Led Wean?



## clothcrazymom (Sep 13, 2003)

I was having a conversation about this with someone and I know it comes up from time to time on different boards where mom's say their baby weaned at a year or 18 months or whatever.

Just wondering what you all think.


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

My DS weaned himself when I was pg....he was 16 months old. Now I will admit that in the first trimester nursing was *very* painful and I was *very* sore so I did limit the amout of time he was on the breast...but once it passed he had free range again and simply stopped nursing one night and never asked again....


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## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

I think that it depends on the child, but _in my opinion_ I think even 2 is very young to self-wean (provided the mother is still making milk and is making breastfeeding readily available to the child).


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## Bleu (Mar 6, 2004)

I can't answer the question because my nursling is too little.

I do get a little irked when I hear moms say "_DC weaned her/himself_" at 18 months or less when it's obviously a nursing strike or another non-CLW scenario. I'm not trying to castigate women who need or want to wean, I just wish everyone would be more fastidious about the language and not misues the term. Calling a nursing strike "CLW" is a sign of either confusion or dishonesty and there's too much of both surrounding breastfeeding in our culture.

Uh, that was a little rant, wasn't it? Hope it was too derailing-ish, Crazyclothmom!


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## Bleu (Mar 6, 2004)

On a related note, I hear very few people make the distinction between C*L*W and C*R*W. There's nothing wrong with CRW -- it's very gentle and very AP -- and I hope that I hear the term used more frequently, because it seems to more accureately reflect what happens. Keep in mind, this is just my unfounded opinion, having never done any of it!


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## mamatoo3 (Jul 19, 2004)

What is CRW?

The other day a mother told me her child stopped wanting to nurse at 9 mos. I found that more than a little hard to believe, but I don't know the situation so....

~ Robin
mama to Evan,8 Maya,5 and Gwen,16 mos.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bleu*
On a related note, I hear very few people make the distinction between C*L*W and C*R*W. There's nothing wrong with CRW -- it's very gentle and very AP -- and I hope that I hear the term used more frequently, because it seems to more accureately reflect what happens. Keep in mind, this is just my unfounded opinion, having never done any of it!


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## kaimama (Jul 21, 2003)

I did not "need or want" to wean my 17 month old ds. He was not on a nursing strike, I tried and tried to keep him nursing. I pumped when he wouldn't nurse to keep up my supply, I offered the breast at every opportunity, I took warm baths with him several times a week for over a month, I did so many other things to keep our nursing relationship going.
Even after he stopped nursing completely, I pumped to keep up my milk suppy in case he wanted to nurse again. This went on for almost two months when finally I decided I was pushing it for myself and that he really was ready to wean HIMSELF.

I cannot believe how insensitive the above poster is being, I have been mourning the loss of my nursing relationship with my son for the past 5.5 months and to read how you think a mother who "claims CLW" is either lying or confused, well it just cuts me to the core.

I know I am sensitive about this issue and probably over reacting but I know from very sad experience that yes, they "really can wean that young". I wanted a child that would nurse until he was 3 or 4 and beyond
but instead I got a very independent little toddler who decided that he didn't need his mama's milk anymore and he decided it on his own.

I apologize if I am coming off harsh here, but I don't even know what the point of this thread is.

Jane

edited to add, I was taking issue with bleu's first post in this thread but it took me too long to type this response.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

New to this forum and NAK

My daughter weaned at 18 months, but it was definitely not completely her decision- I was pg and taking progesterone to maintain the pregnancy. That said, however, she was always less "committed" to nursing than my first son, who nursed throughout another progesterone-supported pregnancy until age 3.

Annette


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## mraven721 (Mar 10, 2004)

Can't us mama's give each other a break already? I mean if a baby nurses for 18 months that is a wonderful gift that mama gave that baby! We should all be proud of the mama and baby!
I don't think that anyone can ever say all babies do this or no baby has ever done that. All people are different and unless you know the specific situation at hand I think it's always a bad idea to generalize!


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## kaimama (Jul 21, 2003)

BTW, I didn't mean to imply that a child who nurses past 18 months is not independent. I certainly don't believe that.

mraven...


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## ktcl (Jul 12, 2003)

I still don't know what CRW is! I'd like to know about an alternative to CLW that is gentle and good....


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## cozymama (Apr 27, 2004)

kaimama said:


> I cannot believe how insensitive the above poster is being, I have been mourning the loss of my nursing relationship with my son for the past 5.5 months and to read how you think a mother who "claims CLW" is either lying or confused, well it just cuts me to the core.
> QUOTE]
> 
> ITA- that's a very painful comment to make towards any mother. but I've also heard people say this about the 3 or 4 year old who weans her/himself also.....kind of sounds like a "last one standing" philosopohy to me- a contest to one-up the next mama (i am NOT referring to pps specifically- hope it doesn't sound that way, reference is to other clw/crw comments).....if we know our own children the *best* and our instincts are to be *trusted* and *nurtured*- and i believe in my heart these are all true- then who is someone else to judge?? my son will wean when HE is ready- not when someone else (be they mainstream or ap) thinks he is. if someone else deems that "too early" frankly i'd put them in the same category as the people who already deem me "nursing too long"- disrespectful to the uniqueness, individuality and beauty in each nursing relationship.
> ...


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Most 18 month old that I have know don't really go on nursing strikes.....they simply decided they don't want to nurse anymore (if that is the case) why is that so hard to believe????? Why if they obviously don't care about nursing should a mom feel like they need to somehow 'make' the child want to nurse? Why should they continue to offer or freak out about it? I mean we are not talking about a little baby that truly is on a *nursing strike* we are talking about a toddler that has decided for themselves (like they often do







) that they don't need to nurse any more......I just don't understand why this is so difficult for some people to believe and understand.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

I do believe that the vast majority of children who wean before about two had decisions made for them that encouraged that weaning (for example, earlier solids introduction, use of bottles or sippies, etc...). That said, I don't really care either.

People on this board have allowed me to say that my DD "self-weaned" though IN REALITY, she did decide when her last nursing would be, but the limits I put on her *before* that completley changed her nursing timeline (IMO).

I have a good friend who's children have nursed 13, 16 and 15 months. She considers them to have weaned themselves down to one nursing daily and then she pushed that last one. Now, if she wanted to nurse longer, I would have MANY, MANY suggestions to make to change that but she doesn't want to change it, so I don't. KWIM? So, if she wanted to change that for a future child, that would be easy (IMO) but to say that her children didn't cut down *on their own* is pretty meaningless. And especially after the fact saying, "well, if you didn't start bottles at nine months maybe he wouldn't have weaned at 18 months" doesn't even make senseto do, imo.

That said, I don't really even think about CLW until after at least two, probably more like three (not think about doing it, but putting it in that context) because I figure children that age really can't make a *real* long term decision anyway.

Honestly, probably some of my opinions come down to good ole jealousy though. I would LOVE my children to self-wean right at 2.5-3. I get so jealous hearing these wonderful loving stories of self-weanings at 2-2.5 when I think about how HARD it was to nurse through a pg, tandem nurse, deal w/thrush and a two year old, etc... So, chalk up any negative feelings I exhibit to a bad attitude


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

Most 18 month old that I have know don't really go on nursing strikes.....they simply decided they don't want to nurse anymore (if that is the case) why is that so hard to believe????? Why if they obviously don't care about nursing should a mom feel like they need to somehow 'make' the child want to nurse? Why should they continue to offer or freak out about it? I mean we are not talking about a little baby that truly is on a *nursing strike* we are talking about a toddler that has decided for themselves (like they often do ) that they don't need to nurse any more......I just don't understand why this is so difficult for some people to believe and understand.
I cannot answer why it is important for others, but I can for me. I believe that the chance that a child who was ecologically bfed from birth to wean before two would be rare enough to be statistically absent (not to say it doesn't happen, just that you can gamble on it not). I feel very strongly that every child deserves to be nursed for two years minimum. Since I believe that, I would have a lot of problems "allowing" my child to wean before that time frame. If there was nothing else I could do, I would pump, pump, pump as much as I could until at least two. I can't imagine my children doing that (for one thing, they would have no milk source, lol, and hardly any food intake!) but that is the decision I have made for my family. It is something important to me--- is that difficult for you to understand?


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## Bleu (Mar 6, 2004)

My post was insensitive to you, Kaimama; I'm sorry you felt bad over it. I'm also sorry that your son weaned before you wanted him to. I would be very upset if my son weaned before I was ready, too. Actually, I think I might be upset, or at least wistful and missing it when he weans no matter what.

Honestly, I wasn't really _trying_ to be sensitive to various breastfeeding mothers and their histories; I was writing about how nitpicky I am about language use. We were talking about breastfeeding (mis)information in the abstract, not dissecting a particular nursing relationship (e.g., yours). You weren't in this thread yet when I posted, so it really wasn't as if I criticized you; you presented your account after I posted.

I also specifically said that I was NOT intending to bash anyone, including anyone in this thread or forum. My personal pique (which I think is a lot less judgmental than a lot of what I've read on this forum) doesn't mean I go around correcting other mothers and denigrating the validity of their experiences!

TiredX2 said "_I do believe that the vast majority of children who wean before about two had decisions made for them that encouraged that weaning (for example, earlier solids introduction, use of bottles or sippies, etc...)._" That is what I was referring to when I said people are misstating it when they say a very young toddler has CLWed.

Mamatoo3, CRW is "child-respectful weaning."


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

what TiredX2 said - I would have said essentially the same thing but she posted first!


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## velcromom (Sep 23, 2003)

Kellymom has good info about selfweaning Here's the page:

http://www.kellymom.com/bf/weaning/babyselfwean.html

Based on a biological perspective it seems logical that only a small number of babies would choose to stop nursing before they are nearing two years. As we all know so well, they are all individuals and follow their own path. I saw a post yesterday from a mom whose 12 month old seems to be meeting all the natural criteria for self weaning. I do believe a few babies do this, and it doesn't reflect on the mama in terms of quality of mothering.

That said, I am one mom who inadvertantly encouraged weaning with my first child and had no idea that I was doing it. So I accidentally weaned ds1 and then misidentified the process as 'selfweaning' when it really wasn't. I've since learned more about it and ds2 will either be CLW or CRW after the age of two, I really don't know til I get there.

I hope that when a mom asks about selfweaning we can give out the accurate info she needs, not so that she will choose what we think is right but so she can understand what she is doing when she does make a decision. I feel this way because a) you can't force a child to continue nursing if they don't want to, and b) true selfweaning at a year or 18 months is not going to have dire consequences. I think it's as unrealistic to expect 100% of children to nurse past the age of two as it is to expect 100% of children to follow a set growth pattern. Most probably will, in general, but some won't. In nature, normal is variable.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

i GUESS IT DEPENDS. i WAS 7 MONTHS PREGNANT WHN YANA WEANED. (SORRY CAPS) I know it was because my milk was drying up but she stopped asking, I never limited her she stoppd on her own. I think if I had more milk though she would not have. she was 16months.


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

I have a friend whose middle sone self-weaned at 15 months, however she was pregnant at the time. Now the mom is still nursing his older (5year old) brother and his little ( 1 year old) brother. It was certainly child-led on the part of this child.


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Thanks to all of the posters for some great information and for being able to talk about this so respectfully. This is such a tough, personal issue. I found myself getting really defensive but worked through all the responses and figured out that I wanted to believe it was CLW with my first two when it was mostly my decisions. (Not always well educated or supported ones, but mine none the less.) Now with my last I will be more aware. I don't think I am dedicated to two years. I greatly respect that decision for others but just not for me. I do want to be more honest with myself about my motives this time. I will aim for child respectful (which the other two certainly were) weaning sometime after 18 months or so.


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## Fiona2 (Dec 21, 2003)

My daughter weaned herself very suddently at 15 months, going from about 8 feeds every 24 hours to nothing overnight. She was in the middle of a nasty cold and every time she nursed she was sick. Nothing would entice her to nurse again. It definitely wasn't my decision. So yes, this can happen.


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## Bleu (Mar 6, 2004)

I just wanted to pop in again and say that being accused of insensitivity has really made me feel bad -- for the poster who said it and, to be honest, for myself. I wanted to reiterate that I have no first-hand information on weaning at all, in that we haven't weaned (and I'm taking affirmative steps to keep from weaning). I respect other posters' experiences and value reading their stories -- that's why I'm here!

And I really hate that somehow these overtones of judgment seem to creep in no matter how hard posters seek to impersonally, neutrally discuss various nursing terms, e.g., extending nursing, exclusive breastfeeding, child-lead weaning, child-respectful weaning, ecological breastfeeding, etc. I think (hope) that if you knew me you would realize I am not into (and am very much against) that whole more-AP-than-thou trip. Obviously my original post failed because it sure didn't convey that.

CLW as compared to CRW -- true, there is a difference (and I think a number of posters have explained or offered posts to explain that difference better than I could), but _stating that they are distinct from one another is NOT a value statement_, at least not coming from me. I give my son a sippy cup, for example, and started him on solid foods at under seven months. Both are weaning techniques. Both are very gentle, respectful, (at least arguably) age-appropriate mothering choices -- *and* both are weaning techniques (especially if you offer them when your nursling asks to bf). I am comfortable with my choices here and I try hard to be thoroughly familiar with their impact on our breastfeeding relationship.

By participating here at MDC (and by reading a lot more than I post), I hope to learn from other, more experienced moms. Before this thread, for example, I had not heard stories before of children exhibiting CLW signs at such young ages without some encouragement (whether conscious or intentional or not) form the mom.

Please do not ascribe hurtful or snarky motivations to my posts; none was intended.


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## jkpmomtoboys (Jun 1, 2004)

This has been an interesting thread. I'm the mom someone referred to whose child is self-weaning at 12 months. I do not want him to wean, just as I didn't want my older ds to wean at 20 months. But they both met (or is meeting) all the "criteria" for self-weaning as opposed to a nursing strike, so what more can you do? I continue to offer nursing to my 12 month old, on a daily basis at various times of the day, but obviously I'm not going to force my child to nurse









Anyway, I'm a pretty experienced breastfeeding mom and neither confused nor dishonest.







But everyone's experience is different. Child-led weaning is child-led weaning...

Thanks for the interesting discussion!


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## resimom (Jul 16, 2004)

i have always wanted to do clw but have never made it there.

my oldest was crw at 4 years due to a convenient opportunity (i had to be away for surgery). looking back i realize he was not ready







.
my next was crw at 3 1/2 years due to a health issue with a pregnancy but was very near clw. with her i am sure she was close because i only told her once or twice we needed to not nurse anymore because of the new baby.
the next is still nursing with no interest in stopping at 3 1/2 years.
the next two are a year old. one eats a lot of solids, the other does not.


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

Quote:

Since I believe that, I would have a lot of problems "allowing" my child to wean before that time frame.
nak-

if you don't allow your child to wean when they are trying to, how is that clw?

also, if overall weaning age is 4.2 yrs, wouldn't it make sense that some kids wean before 2 just as some wean after 6?

also, if a child 'self weans' b/c of pg, why wouldn't that be self weaning?


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## mamadodson (Apr 6, 2004)

quote: I feel very strongly that every child deserves to be nursed for two years minimum. Since I believe that, I would have a lot of problems "allowing" my child to wean before that time frame. If there was nothing else I could do, I would pump, pump, pump as much as I could until at least two.

this disturbs me a little my daughter is only a year, so I cant say too much on this discussion, she is on a strike, but I see it as a strike and it will pass, however this comment really urks me, if my daughter decided to wean herself tomorrow, I wouldnt feel like I was a bad mom for not giving her what she "deserves" as said, and I dont think it should be a matter of allowing a child to wean, a child will wean when he or she wants to, so you saying allowing, is like you are making them want to nurse, and why would you keep pumping till 2 if your child didnt want it, what would you then do with it, what benefits would you get from continually pumping to see if your daughter or son would nurse, that just seems unlogical to me in the sense that you can't control the age your child wants to wean, unless it is made the only option for the child, which in my eyes, what 2 year old only wants to drink breast milk? and watch everyone else in the house eat table food, that just doesnt seem fair to me to try to push the issue if your child has lost interest..Jmo..


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

I have a few things to add, but since my dd hasn't weaned yet (she's just over 2 y.o.) I am speaking from other's experiences and what I've read in books (mostly LLL books) and on webforums like this one.

I've heard of children weaning before or at a year or so, but I think a few things were true about these situations which makes it less like CLW and more like mommy lead weaning:
* they were using a bottle and developed nipple preference (different from nipple confusion in that they prefered the bottle, were not confused by it) between 6-9 months. This mom considers her children self-weaned.
* BF was used as a food source only and not a comfort source. I know 3 brothers who weaned at 12, 13 & 14 months respectively. I know their mother used CIO when they were in the 6 month neighborhood and the first one was only nursing in the morning when he was 12 months so not much comfort nursing there. She considers them to have weaned themselves.
* "self-weaned" at 12 months by drinking yogurt drink instead.
* "mother-weaned" at 12 months because she wanted to wear a regular bra and sleep late on Saturdays while daddy attented to dd. Also wanted to get pregnant and didn't think could while nrusing.

For most of these children, in spite of how young they were when they weaned, I think most of them were luckier than many children in that they had been BF for as long as they had. I think that it would have been best for them if they hadn't weaned so young, but in most cases the mother's needs outweighed the child's (as often happens in our society







).

I believe in CLW & CRW. I do not want my daughter to wean but I don't always want to nurse her in the middle of grocery shopping either, so I offer her water or a snack. I'm very nervous about night weaning because it seems like some children wean completely when night weaned. However, I would like to have another child and since I get no help at night from dh, I don't know how I could do both.

I do not think we should criticize any mother whose child self-weans at a young age when the above things I mentioned aren't happening. It probably happened that these children were ready & mommy wasn't. It hurts twice to have someone criticize you for something you didn't want happen and probably tried to prevent. Every child is different and so every child's weaning will be different.

I think in cases where the motehr is not commited to BF for the long haul, it's more likely that the child will wean early, but I also know a mom in my LLL group who is only having 1 and he weaned shortly before age 2 and I don't know for sure, but I doubt it was CRW. He was ready. IT happens.

Susanne


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## clothcrazymom (Sep 13, 2003)

Very interesting to read all the different thoughts on this!

It's a topic that I still try to get my brain around even after 16+ years of parenting. I read threads about night weaning and how some still feel that they are practicing CLW if they night wean, or at different ages CLW is valid and at others it is not. I find it all interesting.

Someone asked what the point in threads like this is. It really is NOT about trying to be judgemental or hurt anyone's feelings (as I think most have been really respectful on here). It's more about working through our own thoughts and feelings on these things for ourselves. Sometimes it helps to discuss these things and look at things from a different perspective. I really don't think that we start these threads to try to upset people. It's not like there are lots of different places available to discuss such things.

I hadn't seen "CRW" before. So I learned something new (as I usually do!) on this thread. And I guess I would say that with my older children we practiced CRW. My 1st child was 14 months when weaned and I definitely have never thought of it as CLW even though it was a slow gentle process. My 2nd child was 2 when she weaned and I used to say she CLW but I was never totally comfortable with that category since there does seem to be those that feel that if a mom delays or ever does the (don't offer/don't refuse) that it's not CLW. The process with her was a slow process that I have described as a dance. There were times that I led (distraction, delay, DODR, etc) but most of the time it was completely up to her. My youngest is 16 months and still nursing...so who knows how things will go with him....although I do have somewhat of a plan or agenda this time around.

Anyway...I thought I would just chime in to let everyone know that there was not any negative intentions in starting this thread. I hope it continues as I know I find it very interesting!


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

My 2nd child was 2 when she weaned and I used to say she CLW but I was never totally comfortable with that category since there does seem to be those that feel that if a mom delays or ever does the (don't offer/don't refuse) that it's not CLW.
Wow, that I have never heard. I, personally, don't think it is a mother's responsibility to encourage nursing past a certain age, but







--- to each their own. Of course, most people who do "don't offer/don't refuse" do offer *on occasion* so maybe they were just talking about a 100% consistent application?

Quote:

if you don't allow your child to wean when they are trying to, how is that clw?

also, if overall weaning age is 4.2 yrs, wouldn't it make sense that some kids wean before 2 just as some wean after 6?

also, if a child 'self weans' b/c of pg, why wouldn't that be self weaning?
I do not know what I would do if confronted with a child who "wanted" to wean before 2. I avoid that situation with other choices I make as much as possible. If a child weans during pregnancy that, imo, is a choice forced on them not one they would choose given a fully lactating mother. I am NOT saying it is bad, or that you can stop it, but that it is not generally (esp at a young age) a real "choice."

Quote:

I dont think it should be a matter of allowing a child to wean, a child will wean when he or she wants to, so you saying allowing, is like you are making them want to nurse, and why would you keep pumping till 2 if your child didnt want it, what would you then do with it, what benefits would you get from continually pumping to see if your daughter or son would nurse, that just seems unlogical to me in the sense that you can't control the age your child wants to wean, unless it is made the only option for the child, which in my eyes, what 2 year old only wants to drink breast milk? and watch everyone else in the house eat table food, that just doesnt seem fair to me to try to push the issue if your child has lost interest..Jmo..
Once again, I need to point out I am talking about MY opinions, MY children and MY parenting. I am not suggesting any one else follow "My" rules.

If, indeed, my child had weaned (I'm guessing after a couple months effort) I would continue pumping so my child could have the MILK. Babies need milk for at least two years and I would want my child to have species specific milk.

Uhhh, what makes you think I would not allow my child access to table food? They both have gone straight to table food before a year. That has nothing to do with them nursing or what they are given to drink (human milk as their milk source, no bottles (so sucking has to come from mom)).

And what do you mean by "what 2 year old wants to drink only breast milk?" Uhhh, biologically probably *every* two year old. What other drink would you suggest? (I'd like to point out that my two year olds both consumed other drinks. I just think it's odd to assume that bmilk which can fill both hunger and thirst needs is somehow lacking







). Do you have an issue with only having healthy drinks available? Wouldn't a two year old rather eat candy and drink pop?

Edited to add: No, actually both of my two year olds would choose to nurse over candy/pop if they had to choose either/or.


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## resimom (Jul 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
Edited to add: No, actually both of my two year olds would choose to nurse over candy/pop if they had to choose either/or.









my 3 1/2 yo would take the candy, then the nursing, then the pop if she had to choose.

does that make her close to clw :LOL ?


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## mamadodson (Apr 6, 2004)

TiredX2...you are clearly missing the point that that as well is MY OPINION>....you made it sound like a mom who didnt "allow" a child to nurse till 2 is wrong...I think if a mom nursed for 2 months atleast she did that...JUST MY OPINION THOUGH.......I wasnt aiming towards you and no table food, if I was aiming it torwards you I would have clearly stated you name as I have above...I come to mdc to give my opinions, and am mostly enlightened by everyone elses, with hope that people dont jump all over someone, I was simply asking questions to understand your opinion better,and stating that in my opinion, it is disturbing...people disagree, that is the way it goes, but I respect your opinion, just dont agree...no big thing to get all upset about...I agree eveyone and every situation and child is different..


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## Tinas3muskateers (May 19, 2004)

I am new here but I believe in CLW My ds is only 6 months old and we have no future plans on weaning untill he is ready but me personally I cannot see myself nursing past the age of 2. I however have given him 2 years (or will) of my milk, the best thing he could have in those two years, if he still wants it. If he were to self wean after a year I wouldnt think of myself any less of a mother or a person. He got it longer then most babies do. If its CLW, let the child lead. I will not force my son to BF because the WHO says age 2 is best.


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## Shonahsmom (Mar 23, 2004)

Regarding the OP's question, my dd did CLW at 25 months. It was very gradual from about 20 months. She started skipping a day here or there and then a few days and then she stopped.

She was always EBF, never had a bottle, has never liked or really drank cow's milk or juice and wasn't interested in and didn't really start eating solds until after her 1st b-day. We also co-slept and I never refused her nightime nursing, but she had stopped completely and was consistently sleeping through the night from about 15 months.

I totally mourned the end of the nursing relationship and was suprised that it happened so soon, but it genuinely was child led.


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## Cinder (Feb 4, 2003)

I have a friend who's son weaned at 9 months, which was just when she entered into her second trimester...I also have an older friend of the family (youngest child is 20) who's middle son weaned himself at 16 months...again though, it was during her second trimester... I think pregnancy leads to self weaning a lot.

Honestly at this point I think my baby hates to nurse.







He struggles the whole time, and is definitely more comforted by cuddling skin to skin than nursing...in fact I usually have to comfort him after nursing, he's 5 months old, I can't see him wanting to nurse longer than a year...in fact if he knew bottles were an option (I've never offered one) I'd think he'd have quit already... Such the exact opposite of my daugher who still loves to nurse at 2 years old.


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## slightly crunchy (Jul 7, 2003)

I often have my doubts when I read about CLW before the age of two. I think sometimes people don't realize that "don't offer, don't refuse" with toddlers, especially preverbal ones, is a weaning technique. Not that it is a bad thing.

OTOH, I feel a little irked when I've seen on other threads, that some people think practically no child will self wean before the age of 4. I think it's easy to let our own, narrow (though individually rich) experiences color our opinions about this topic. Looking at my 2.5 year old, I'd say there would be no way he'd self wean for at least another year. But, does that mean every kid is just like mine, or most of ours here? Of course not. And who's to say, that because most of us "believe" in bf past the age of two, we weren't completely neutral in our approach to bf. Where other mothers did subtle things to ENcourage weaning, maybe I have done subtle things to DIScourage it, and to encourage my son to nurse a long time. It's a matter of perspective.

I also believe that little children sense and have a knowing about things so much more than we know. I think in some cases, even little toddlers know when their moms really don't want to nurse them anymore, and perhaps pick up on that. Even on days where I really don't feel like nursing my son, overall I do love it and want him to nurse.


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## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

I'm feeling to need to step up on the soapbox....I'm not doing this offend anyone, I just feel the need to try my 2-cents at keeping this Mothering forum in check.

It makes me sad to see this happening at MDC, different ways to show others that it is okay to wean before 2 (or 1 or whatever). We are the only place where Moms can get encouragment to nurse past the social norm and yet we are in the midst of an "argument" of sorts to justify a child weaning before the age of 2 (be it "self-led" or not). On the one hand I think it's good that everyone is trying really hard to avoid insulting or hurting anyone, but OTOH this is MOTHERING. We are supposed to encourage mothers to nurse beyond 2, to avoid early weaning, to go against the grain and look at society's faults in the raising of children and be bold enough make changes.

There apparently is such a thing as a child self-weaning before the age of 2 (and I too do not see early weaning because of pregnancy as child-led or self-weaning... same with other distractions, manipulations, or unavailability of the mother and her milk). I genuinely feel sorrow for the mother and child for having no other choice, and I feel for those mothers who have expressed that here. I understand their need to be validated, but we must be careful with what kind of message we are sending.

The evidence is out there that a child should nurse at least 2 years (see below), I am saddened that mothers cannot look past societal pressure/opinion for the good of their own child's health and well-being (and for the good of our future in general). Yes, all children are different and some do wean earlier than expected but far far FAR more children are weaned earlier than they would if only their mothers would give them the opportunity that they deserve. The numbers of children who actually do not need to nurse past 2 (or whatever) pale in comparison to those who do. If we are to have a paradigm shift (or a change in attitude as to what the "norm" should be), Mothering is the place that should encourage it. We should not be afraid of stepping on the toes of those who are actually encouraging the current mainstream opinion on an otherwise very un-mainstream forum. If we say that it's okay to wean at 2, or if enough mothers say that their children "self-weaned" at 1 or 2, what kind of message is that sending the mothers who come here looking for what is truly normal and natural, not what is currently socially normal (or unknowingly very rare), KWIM?

My dd has weaned already but I still come here to offer other mamas support to continue, not to help justify why it is okay to not continue (which is what most of us get in daily life anyway). If the child is younger than 2, he/she should be encouraged to continue. Not by force but by the mother making every effort possible to make her milk available to her child.

Quote:

AAFP Policies on Health Issues > Breastfeeding (Position Paper)
http://www.aafp.org/x6633.xml
"Breastfeeding should ideally continue beyond infancy, but this is currently not the cultural norm and requires ongoing support and encouragement.85 If the child is younger than two years of age, the child is at increased risk of illness if weaned. 61"

Quote:

"Parents and health professionals need to recognize that the benefits of breastfeeding (nutritional, immunological, cognitive, emotional) continue as long as breastfeeding itself does, and that there never comes a point when you can replace breast milk with infant formula, cows' milk or any other food, or breastfeeding with a pacifier or teddy bear, without some costs to the child."
-- KA Dettwyler, "Beauty and the Breast" from Breastfeeding: Biocultural Perspectives, 1995, p. 204.
Source: http://www.kellymom.com/bf/weaning/babyselfwean.html

Quote:

From Katherine Dettwyler, PhD
http://www.prairienet.org/laleche/dettoddler.html
"Studies have shown that a child's immune system doesn't completely mature until about 6 years of age, and it is well established that breast milk helps develop the immune system and augment it with maternal antibodies as long as breast milk is produced. ...the "natural" age at weaning in modern humans would be between 2.5 and 7.0 years, if we didn't have various cultural beliefs about how long it should be. I looked at lots of different data, and the absolute minimum age was 2.5 years. All of the studies done to date on the health benefits of breastfeeding show continued health benefits and IQ increases up to 2 years of age. Beyond two years of age? There haven't been any studies yet. But it is hard to imagine that all the good nutritional benefits, immunological benefits, and long-chain polyunsaturated fatty acids thought to be responsible for the IQ boosts would suddenly disappear the day after the child's second birthday! "


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## yoga (May 1, 2002)

"don't offer, don't refuse" is definately a weaning technique.

is there really a question about that in the general population? if so, that's not a good thing.

I think CLW is just that...child-led weaning. Other posters have made great points about this. CLW is _not_: "don't offer, don't refuse"; mama's milk is diminishing; mama is gone a lot and access is diminished; redirection when asking to nurse.

I even think if you've night-weaned, you can't really claim to have had CLW.

I like the term CRW, but I wonder: how respectful is it if the child's not ready and deciding to do it his/herself?


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Mother_Sunshine!

My 2cents: DS is going to be 2.5 yo next month, and still bf's often 24/7. I'm sure this will continue for at least another year, and who knows how long after that?

I consider myself an "ecological" breastfeeder. I have always/still do breastfeed on demand (except now there are incidents where I have to delay, like in a car or at times of great inconvenience - esp. since I can't nurse in a sling anymore and ds is almost 40lbs); I've never used pacifiers or any artificial soothers, bottles, etc.; ds has never had a "lovey" (I am his lovey







); we still co-sleep; ds nurses whenever he wants day or night....

I started solids later than usual, and I never forced ds to eat anything he didn't want; he didn't want to eat solids until nearly 18 mo. To this day he might skip a meal to breastfeed. He eats a lot more now, but his main liquid is breastmilk or water.

I don't get one of the previous posts which said something about "what toddler would want to only drink bm or just drink bm and watch everyone eat solids" or something like that. That is so not what is going on with us. If ds wants to eat solids, he eats them; sometimes a lot, sometimes just a little, sometimes none at all. I consider breastmilk far superior than cow's milk, and cow's milk is just not an option in our home. He doesn't need it. He thinks it's for coffee. He doesn't even know what it tastes like! Breastmilk is designed for humans, and that's what he gets. He loves it! He loves how it tastes, he loves the comfort of nursing, he loves to nurse.

Anyway, I hold no judgements on other mother's durations of breastfeeding their children. I am following my ds' lead and needs and never imagined I would nurse this long; but we might only be halfway through our nursing relationship as it is. Time will tell.

But, I do have to note that of all of my friends whose children have weaned, whether or not they say their dc's self-weaned, all of them have had at least one of the following: early solids, pacifiers, cio, nightweaning, cows milk, distraction from nursing, a lot of solids introduced very quickly... I always wonder about a child who is considered "self-weaned" before even 2.5 years.


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mother_sunshine*
It makes me sad to see this happening at MDC, different ways to show others that it is okay to wean before 2 (or 1 or whatever). We are the only place where Moms can get encouragment to nurse past the social norm and yet we are in the midst of an "argument" of sorts to justify a child weaning before the age of 2 (be it "self-led" or not). On the one hand I think it's good that everyone is trying really hard to avoid insulting or hurting anyone, but OTOH this is MOTHERING. We are supposed to encourage mothers to nurse beyond 2, to avoid early weaning, to go against the grain and look at society's faults in the raising of children and be bold enough make changes.

That may be your agenda but is it MOTHERING's? I don't want encouragment to nurse past 2. Not interested. Read the stuff, ok for others but not for me.

I do need encouragement. Lots of it. I need to feel my choices are valid. That I can decide what is best for me and my family, that I don't have to follow societies norms or Mothers either.

I am very committed to BF but have done lots of those things that will likely lead to early weaning. Things I am ok with like working part-time, using a bottle, and introducing solids when I felt ds and I were ready. One year is ok with me. But this conversation has really opened my eyes to my choice of language, my assumptions about nursing. I am leading my nursing experience, I take responsibility for that. I also agree with the poster that many women encourage late nursing which may therefore not be fully child driven.


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
many women encourage late nursing which may therefore not be fully child driven.

you can't make a child nurse if he/she doesn't want to.

believe me, I have tried (like when I'm trying to encourage a nap or bedtime...)


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

No- I get that completely- deal with that regularly. But if my behavior can influence my child to wean early, can't other women's behaviors influence their children to continue nursing? It feels like we have to be open to considering our own bias.


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
No- I get that completely- deal with that regularly. But if my behavior can influence my child to wean early, can't other women's behaviors influence their children to continue nursing? It feels like we have to be open to considering our own bias.

Well, in my case, I never discouraged the breastfeeding, so yes, I would think that would lengthen our nursing relationship. But maybe "nurture" is a better word than "lengthen"...


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## water (May 15, 2003)

Mother_Sunshine says it so well!









Just some points I wanted to emphasize:

Night-weaning is NOT CLW; even though my 3yo is still nursing I night-weaned him at 18 months and therefore would never claim that he is CLW.

Weaning during pregnancy is NOT self-weaning! There is a drop in or a total loss of milk supply, that in and of itself encourages weaning.

People do need to be accountable for the steps they take that encourage their child to wean, including the bottles, offering other types of milk, not recognizing nursing strikes, delaying or denying nursings, not offering etc etc. I'm not sure why people can't take responsibility for doing these things, I certainly have, and I KNOW they were not the best choices to make if I wanted my son to CLW.

I am lucky in that I have a 3yo who continues to nurse through my pregnancy, total absence of milk, halftime daycare, nightweaning, drinking of soymilk etc etc, but I have NO illusions that what I am doing is CLW or that I have not basically done a whole lot of things that might have caused him to wean on my schedule.

CLW is an admirable thing that more people should strive for (including me) but it does take acknowledging our mistakes in order to perhaps do it differently next time. Or don't do it different, but don't claim self-weaning or CLW.


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## clothcrazymom (Sep 13, 2003)

Water ~ thanks so much for your post - that clears up several things that I've been unclear about when reading different threads. What you wrote makes sense to me.

I'm really not clear about what CRW is (other than my own thoughts) given that I hadn't ever heard the terminology before.

A question for anyone - what is "ecological" bfing? All these terms







You would think after parenting for 16+ years I would know what all these terms are. However, there seems to be more and more categories popping up all the time.

One thing I will say in regards to this type of discussion on Mothering.... My understanding is that this forum is Extended Breastfeeding...(which I know there has been some debate over what "extended" really is age wise and maybe what that is needs to be clearly stated on this board) and not just Child Led Weaning. It was also my understanding that Mothering is about supporting mothers in breastfeeding and it's not necessarily for a specific time. Please show me where I may be wrong on this.

BTW - I've said this before...those of us who are nursing babies that are 1-2 years (or to 2.5 or 3 - whatever age depending on which conversation is being had) are probably the majority here yet we sortof fall through the "cracks". Some don't think we are at the point of "extended breastfeeding" yet, but then we aren't necessarily in the "Getting Started and Overcoming Difficulties" area either. And while some on here may think of those who nursing between the ages of 1-2 as being more "mainstream"...I can tell you that there sure aren't many "mainstream" areas on the web that are supportive of mom's nursing past a year.

Please know that in starting this thread and posing the question....I was in no way trying to "support" or justify early weaning. I was trying to get some clarification on CLW and if there is some sort of minimum age established that this occurs.


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## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
That may be your agenda but is it MOTHERING's?

Mothering's Statement of Purpose...
http://www.mothering.com/mdc/web_sta...ofpurpose.html

Quote:

Mothering celebrates the experience of parenthood as worthy of one's best efforts and fosters awareness of the immense importance and value of family life in the development of the _full human potential_ of parents and children. At Mothering we recognize parents as experts and seek to provide truly helpful information upon which parents can make informed choices. _Mothering is both a fierce advocate of the needs and rights of the child_ and a gentle supporter of the parents, and we encourage decision-making that considers the needs of all family members. We explore the reality of human relationships in the family setting, recognizing that raising the heirs of our civilization well is the prerequisite for a healthy society.
_Mothering advocates natural family living, including the ancient way of being with babies and children that is known today as attachment parenting. This way is reliant on the inherent integrity of children and the inviolate intuition of parents._ The family is the dominion of parents and children and authoritative knowledge rests with them. This website is a place to safely explore all the aspects involved in such a parenting philosophy.

_The MotheringDotCommune discussion boards serve an online community of parents considering, learning and practicing attachment parenting and natural family living._ Our discussions on the boards are about the real world of mothering and are first and foremost, for support and information.
Mothering invites you to read and participate in the discussions on the MotheringDotCommune forums. In doing so we ask that you agree to respect and uphold the integrity of this community.


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## Firemom (Nov 21, 2001)

I think if we all lived in a perfect world where everyone breastfeeds and babies and children see others nursing, then babies and children would nurse for much longer periods of time.

With that. I am on the 2 extremes. I believe Mother Sunshine on this board has nursed a child the longest, and I am close behind her with my dd self weaning a few months shy of 6 years old.

However my son (firstborn) showed signs of weaning around 9 months and did wean at 10 1/2 months. I too felt horrible about this.

With both of my children I worked as a firefighter. I work 2 days per week at 24 hours a pop. I didn't know anyone who worked hours like these and nursed a baby.

Both babies had bottle of breastmilk when I worked. My early weaner started to prefer the bottle my late weaner never showed much interest in the bottle and was drinking out of a cup around 6 months and was not using a bottle at all at one year.

All babies are different and I tried everything to continue nursing my son, but the bottle won. I beat myself up about this a lot, but realized after having my dd how totally different they were and felt better about it.

I do wish he would have nursed for at least a year, but alas we were only a month and 1/2 short of it and he did have my freezer stash until he was a little over 11 months.


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## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

clothcrazymom, I wasn't directing my post (not the last one, but the one before that) at you nor anyone else in particular. I was just finding that this thread was heading in a more defensive way of supporting early weaning and I felt the need to speak up.

You are right, this _forum_ is not solely for mothers who are childled weaning. I don't think anyone here has said or even insinuated that. The topic of discussion in this particular thread is CLW at an early age, however, and that is what we have focused on.

I personally have never thought of those nursing between the ages of 1-2 as being more "mainstream". If they are planning to wean by 2, and they see beyond 2 as strange and unnecessary, then yes I do see them as more mainstream. And if they have a hard time accepting those of us who decide to let our children nurse til whatever age, then no I don't see this as the forum for them because it is not only going against Mothering's intent, it is excluding those who need us most.

In an increasingly diverse forum it is difficult to find common understanding. But we do need to keep our focus on what Mothering is here for. Mothers who nurse beyond 2 should feel welcomed, supported, and encouraged to share so others can learn.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I believe it is the very, very rare child who will truly self-wean before 2. I have a different view of child led weaning than most people I get. I don't believe in night-weaning, or putting the child off unless absolutely necessary, limiting nursing, limiting nursing in public or any other form of limiting nursing. I believe a child who is TRULY allowed to self-wean will be allowed to nurse whenever and whereever they want. People say well what about when its not convenient? Well thousands of years ago women who have had their young child with them at all times and it would not have been an inconvenience to nurse on demand. It would just be a normal part of life. Biologically that is what children are programmed to expect IMO. It is only in our self-centered society where the TRUE best interests of the child are usually not paramount that we push so much to get our children off the breast and get on with our lives. My daughter is almost 22 months old and still nursings on demand 24/7. I will nurse her anywhere and everywhere, I dont' care where I am. And she does ask in some odd places (like yesterday nursing sitting on the curb in a parking lot) but oh well. She still nurses at least 15 times a day but usually MUCH more. I don't pretend to know everything but I think child-led weaning is truly child-led with no interference from the mother. If you dont' believe that then why insist on saying your are practicing child led weaning? Why not just say you and working with your child to gently and respectfully wean them? Don't say well I'm child led weaning but they are nightweaned and I definately won't nurse past 3. Well that isn't child led is it?


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## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

Cindy, I saw your post after I had already posted. Didn't want you to think that I was directing at you.


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## Firemom (Nov 21, 2001)

No, didn't think that at all


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## clothcrazymom (Sep 13, 2003)

clothcrazymom, I wasn't directing my post (not the last one, but the one before that) at you nor anyone else in particular. I was just finding that this thread was heading in a more defensive way of supporting early weaning and I felt the need to speak up>>

Thanks Mother Sunshine for clearing that up for me









<<I personally have never thought of those nursing between the ages of 1-2 as being more "mainstream". If they are planning to wean by 2, and they see beyond 2 as strange and unnecessary, then yes I do see them as more mainstream. And if they have a hard time accepting those of us who decide to let our children nurse til whatever age, then no I don't see this as the forum for them because it is not only going against Mothering's intent, it is excluding those who need us most.

In an increasingly diverse forum it is difficult to find common understanding. But we do need to keep our focus on what Mothering is here for. Mothers who nurse beyond 2 should feel welcomed, supported, and encouraged to share so others can learn.>>

Absolutely!

I think sometimes it gets confusing too because of the way that the Breastfeeding forums are divided up on Mothering.

Heavenly ~ What you said definitely makes sense. I remember reading something that one of the moms who's child weaned at around 7 posted about not understanding how someone can consider themselves to CLW when they haven't been there yet. I found it very interesting because she was talking about her own experiences and how she thought it would be a certain way and it wasn't.

I think I'll stick with the terminology that my children were gently weaned and hopefully that doesn't add to any confusion. They didn't ever have bottles, pacifiers, early solids, milk, or night wean (actually I'm the one that asked about that whole thing one time because my children gave up nursing at night last) But I did do the don't offer don't refuse towards the end and sometimes distracted.

Ok I'm still wondering about "ecological" bfing??


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## jkpmomtoboys (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mother_sunshine*
...I was just finding that this thread was heading in a more defensive way of supporting early weaning and I felt the need to speak up.


I guess I don't see this at all. I saw this as a healthy discussion about people's personal experiences regarding weaning. If we can't discuss our personal experiences, what can we discuss?

And, yeah, ok, I guess I am a _little_ defensive; we're on day 8 of this CL weaning and I think I'll give it another 2 weeks before I officially call it a wean and not a nursing strike...







:


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

Where other mothers did subtle things to ENcourage weaning, maybe I have done subtle things to DIScourage it, and to encourage my son to nurse a long time.
Thank you for explaining what I have desperately wanted to express!!!

I also wanted to mention, because apparently I have to, that I completely support each mothers ability to choose how long to nurse their own child. I will even give weaning tips & pointers if that is what the mom wants. But this thread was not about supporting each woman's choice, it was about a personal opinion of CLW.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

A question for anyone - what is "ecological" bfing?
No pacifiers, no foods, no suppliments (including water). Sleep w/mom during night. Bfeed on demand.

Anyone else, other tennants...?


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

T

Quote:

My daughter is almost 22 months old and still nursings on demand 24/7. I will nurse her anywhere and everywhere, I dont' care where I am. And she does ask in some odd places (like yesterday nursing sitting on the curb in a parking lot) but oh well. She still nurses at least 15 times a day but usually MUCH more.

This just made something to occur to me: I only count "real" nursing sessions when I say how often DS nurses. Like when he lays down and drains at least one side, probably switching back and forth at least twice (right, left, right, left). Gosh, it would be exausting to try and *count* how often he gets a "nip." LOL

Recently he has become convinced that if I *wanted* to I could nurse him while he is in his carseat (back seat) and I am driving







DS is very persuasive with his requests to just shove "it" back there.


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## clothcrazymom (Sep 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
No pacifiers, no foods, no suppliments (including water). Sleep w/mom during night. Bfeed on demand.

Anyone else, other tennants...?

Is this for a certain period of time? Thanks for indulging me in my OT q's









That's interesting comments about the number of times the child nurses too. I know I get asked all the time how often my baby nurses and I have absolutely NO idea. I've always had a hard time with reading the stuff about how children will drop a nursing session (or one should drop a nursing session when weaning) because it's not like my children have ever had regularly timed nursing sessions. The only times I can pretty much count on would be to fall asleep (but this changes daily as to what times this would be or how many naps, etc) and usually upon waking in the morning.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

I think ecological bfeeding is generally only refered to with infants. I am not sure I have ever heard a person refer to themselves as biolgical/ecological bfeeding *after* the introduction of solids (so 6-12 months).







I am DEFINATELY no expert, though!

Quote:

I've always had a hard time with reading the stuff about how children will drop a nursing session (or one should drop a nursing session when weaning) because it's not like my children have ever had regularly timed nursing sessions. The only times I can pretty much count on would be to fall asleep (but this changes daily as to what times this would be or how many naps, etc) and usually upon waking in the morning.










The entire idea of "dropping a nursing session" is so foreign to me, I hadn't thought of it for almost 5 years--- when I realized my reality and textbook advice were just not lining up.


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## resimom (Jul 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *water*
Weaning during pregnancy is NOT self-weaning! There is a drop in or a total loss of milk supply, that in and of itself encourages weaning.

i am trying to word this carefully so i don't seem to be argumentative. i'm really curious about your statement about pregnancy.

if a child has been nursed on request from birth and eventually drops down so that mom's body is able to sustain another pregnancy could that not be seen as a natural progression. from my pov it seems that as long as the child still has access to the breasts this could accurately be considered a step in clw.

as a mom of three nurslings i am curious to hear some thoughts on this.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *clothcrazymom*
I read threads about night weaning and how some still feel that they are practicing CLW if they night wean









I'm one of those. I'll be happy to discuss it with you, if you like - just generally prefer not to get caught up in another "Do I fit someone else's criteria for CLW?" thread. (Says I as I happily nurse my almost-4-year-old for the umpteen millionth time today).


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## seren (Jul 11, 2003)

I had every intention of nursing my son for longer than two years. Unfortuanatly that didn't happen. Around 12 months he stopped nursing during the day. I offered it all day, every hour or so for a long time. He had no interest. He wanted to play. He still nursed for bed time and when he woke up. He quit his morning nursing soon after that. I tried, but he honestly didn't want to. Then I got pregnant after a few weeks he would take a few sips and push me away. He would then cry and want dh. I was so devestated. Here he wanted to, but wouldn't. After a week or so, he quit even trying at night. When I miscarried I tried to nurse him again, but it was like he forgot what to do and it had only been 3 or 4 weeks since he had last tried. I wasn't ready for him to quit and I tried, but he didn't want to. If someone wants to say he didn't wean himself I don't care. I am the only one who was here and knows what was goin on, how he was acting. I was glad just to nurse him that long. I didn't get to with dd. We had alot of issues and I didn't have any idea that I could do more than what I was doing. It was a precious gift to nurse him that long and I won't let anyone take any of it away from me.


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Regarding ecological breastfeeding: I just heard of it myself a few weeks ago, when a friend of mine told me that that is what I had been doing. It is linked to natural childspacing and lactational amenorrhea (see KellyMom: http://www.kellymom.com/bf/normal/fertility.html).

Quote:

You can achieve higher effectiveness by practicing ecological breastfeeding:

- keeping baby close
- nursing on cue
- nursing at night
- using nursing to comfort your baby
- nursing in a lying-down position for naps and at night
- using no bottles or pacifiers

If you practice ecological breastfeeding:

- Chance of pregnancy is practically zero during the first three months, less than 2% between 3 and 6 months, and about 6% after 6 months (assuming mom's menstrual periods have not yet returned).
- The average time for the return of menstrual periods is 14.6 months.
- Moms whose cycles return early tend to be infertile for the first few cycles. Moms whose cycles return later are more likely to ovulate before their first period.
I think that you can continue to ecologically breastfeed for at least the first two years, especially since my period did not return until just after ds' second birthday. We continue to practice all aspects of ecological breastfeeding, even though he eats solid food now.

I'm sure that bc I am breastfeeding this way, our breastfeeding relationship continues longer than it would have if I were not to have. But I have to say that ds is a very spirited child and made me the mom and breastfeeder that I am today! I take it day by day, month by month, year by year.... I never knew we would nurse this long, and I continue to learn about natural durations of breastfeeding, especially here at MDC!

I hope that I haven't been coming across as offensive or anything in my posts here. I really don't mean to! Just passing on my personal experience with breastfeeding, which is nothing like I ever expected it to be.


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## slightly crunchy (Jul 7, 2003)

I'm having a hard time understanding a few things:

1. Why it matters whether any particular woman claims to have practiced CLW vs. CRW with their children, based on various criteria. Does it really matter? There is no prize for nursing a longer time, or for having a "better" weaning by some exalted definition. Let's remember it is about a relationship between mother and child, and that's all. I think maybe the difference between CLW and CRW may be more subtle than all of that. It is a give and take between mother and child. Of course, I haven't experienced final weaning yet. But even the LLL materials I have been reading don't make this grand distinction between what is and isn't CLW.

2. How is a child deciding on their own to wean during a pregnancy, not considered CLW? Especially assuming the mother did nothing in the way of limiting nursing to regain her fertility, and did not plan the pregnancy but let the universe decide, how would that weaning be considered mother-led?

3. Someone made the comment that a mom who used "don't offer, don't refuse" at some point could not be considered to be doing CLW. So, if a child nurses until he, on his own, seemingly outgrows the need, and does not ask anymore, well past the point when he/she is verbal --but the mother is not offering, though she is still available by request --some of you do *not* consider this CLW? Are we supposed to continue offering even when the child does not ask, in public or private, at 2, 3, 4 years and upward? This was implied by at least one of the posts.
*At what point does "dont' offer, don't refuse" just seem to become a natural part of the nursing relationship, and not so much a mother-led technique? * (I ask partly because I still offer at times when my son seems to need it but doesn't ask).


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## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *clothcrazymom*
I remember reading something that one of the moms who's child weaned at around 7 posted about not understanding how someone can consider themselves to CLW when they haven't been there yet. I found it very interesting because she was talking about her own experiences and how she thought it would be a certain way and it wasn't.

I think this was probably me, though I'm not sure I understand your second part re: how I thought it would be a certain way (maybe it wasn't me?). I do think that child-led weaning is exactly that, weaning that is child-led. No stretch of the word "wean", just the complete cessation of nursing. I understand what others mean when they say that once the child starts solids the "weaning" has started, therefore the entire length of breastfeeding from-late-infancy-on is considered a weaning process. I have always seen child-led-weaning in a very simple way, the ultimate decision to stop breastfeeding is made by the child. Once a child reaches a certain age, say 4, then the mother usually knows whether they are in it for the long haul (child-led weaning) or not. Though other in-tune well-informed mothers know from the get-go that they will let their child wean when they are ready regardless of age. Our children show us what is right for them. I honestly didn't even know there was a term child-led weaning until my daughter was well past 5, then the phrase just seemed to fit what we were doing, I didn't make what we were doing fit the phrase, KWIM? It is a term, IMHO, that helps us find one another for support and kinship, definitely not to one-up anyone nor compete with anyone for who can go the longest, the strictest to the term, etc. My daughter simply nursed til the outer edges of Katherine Dettwyler's statistics (though I believe even that is a little short). I know there are others like us, here at MDC too, and I so wish that more mothers would be brave and trusting enough to let their children nurse as long as they wanted.

I was one of those mothers who night-weaned dd when she was a young toddler, before she was ready. I also introduced solids at 6 months, dr. said to and she wanted to...this was all before I had any support. I fit a lot of the criteria that others have said are not CLW, yet my daughter continued to nurse until age 7. I even did don't offer, don't refuse when she passed 4yrs. Would I recommend others follow in those same footsteps? No way, especially if it leads to early weaning for their child. I _would_ recommend that every mother stop listening to society's harmful ignorance and start listening to their children. When it all boils down to it, dd did (and still does) come first and foremost. Getting all caught up in advice and "THE right way to do it" is dangerous for everyone's well-being.

Other people believe CLW is letting the child completely lead the way through the nursing relationship. I think that's fine. I do have a different view on it, and that's okay too. I would consider it _child-led breastfeeding_ (how's that for another term to add to the pot?







). Both views take the child's well-being into account and place a high value of, and level of trust on, the child and I think that's wonderful. I consider us to have practiced child-led weaning but I have no problem with anyone who disagrees with me due to their own ideals. It's okay. IMO I wouldn't consider any of us (early weaning, late weaning, in-between weaning) against one another, or one-upping each other, or criticizing our differences. We simply have different views on it. Diversity is healthy.

(Not sure if that clarified anything or if I just added another chapter to my wordy novel. It's late and I'm so tired. :yawning: )


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## Firemom (Nov 21, 2001)

Me too. I didn't think of nursing in terms of child lead weaning but to me thats what it was. She was almost 6 years old when she totally weaned.

We also night weaned, talked about weaning, talked about a weaning party, don't offer don't refuse.

But I also feel I let my kids learn to use the toliet on their own too. I did not potty train, but we did talk about it.

Its a learning process. Not everyone potty trains the same and not everyone nurses or weans a child the same.

But we still are all similar


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## clothcrazymom (Sep 13, 2003)

It's really interesting to hear of all the different experiences!

Just to let you know, Mother Sunshine - It wasn't you I was referring to....but your reporting of your own experiences sounds similar to what the other mom talked about. The other mom talked about how her child weaned around 7 and by some of the conversations now on these threads they wouldn't fit into the "CLW" definition. That was hard for me to understand personally because I would certainly think that someone who had bf so long would be in the CLW category but now in reading what some feel the criteria would be...I can understand where age really wouldn't have anything to do with it (I guess) but then I would think it could be stated that age wouldn't have anything to do with it on the other side either...for those with younger children.

It's sortof confusing









While I sortof hate all the extra terms getting tossed out lately....I think the Child Led Nursing term might be a really good one! LOL

Firemom - good analogy with the potty training!

I think it's easy on these boards to get caught up in very specific listings of what something is or is not. But that isn't reality. In life nothing is so concrete.


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## Mona (May 22, 2003)

just found this thread and enjoying the posts, although have to say that it is a bit more defensive on the part of mothers whose children have weaned, self or "urged/encouraged"- beofre two, which is disappointing.

i got the latest motheringin yesterday-- there is an article on a child breastfeeding at 5. it was a beautiful vision for me, and brought tears to my eyes. i haven't read the whole thing yet, just skimmmed, but i look forward to it. my dd is 20 months, and i look froward to a long nursing relationship, and hope i have the inner courage to allowr her to truly self wean.

i personally "self weaned" at 9 mo - but my mother used a pacifier, fed me foods starting at 4 mo, and did not co-sleep w/ me. so my food and psyeudo "nurturing" needs were "me"t in other ways. i was so relieved to read about ways to encourage the breastfeeding relationship so that this would not happen w/ me and dd.

dd is pulling on me- hav e to go.









lisa


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Just my own answers:

Quote:

1. Why it matters whether any particular woman claims to have practiced CLW vs. CRW with their children, based on various criteria. Does it really matter?
Nope, doesn't matter. Does it *really* matter what you call the color red? No, but there is an ACTUAL color red. Saying that something is not what another is saying is is is not putting them down

Quote:

2. How is a child deciding on their own to wean during a pregnancy, not considered CLW? Especially assuming the mother did nothing in the way of limiting nursing to regain her fertility, and did not plan the pregnancy but let the universe decide, how would that weaning be considered mother-led?
Lets say a mother put spicy powder on her nipples. Then the child weaned. Was that "child-led"? No. Why? Because the child did not have a *real* choice in the matter. There is NOTHING the mother can do at that point, but at the same time there is not a *real* choice given to the child. It is a matter of semantics, and there, IMO, should be no negative associations w/that weaning or mother, but it *is* different is some fundamental ways.

Quote:

3. Someone made the comment that a mom who used "don't offer, don't refuse" at some point could not be considered to be doing CLW. So, if a child nurses until he, on his own, seemingly outgrows the need, and does not ask anymore, well past the point when he/she is verbal --but the mother is not offering, though she is still available by request --some of you do *not* consider this CLW?
I am confused by that as well. I can see it's application towards a younger child (or an out of control child--- sometimes they get so stressed they just don't *think* to ask) but I don't consider it the mother's responsibility to actively seek nursing past a certain age.







To each their own









Seren, I don't want you to feel defensive, but:

Quote:

Around 12 months he stopped nursing during the day. I offered it all day, every hour or so for a long time.
So was he just not eating *anything*?


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## yoga (May 1, 2002)

as far as "don't offer, don't refuse", it's a well-known weaning technique suggested at LLL meetings all the time (at least in my town, it is). I would say that not offering the breast to a 4yo is just as common as offering it. I know lots of mamas who offer the breast as soon as their kid gets hurt. Or if they want the kid to take a nap. So, not offering is suggested when those mamas want to cut back on nursing. Don't refuse is self-explanatory, I think.

I know 2 of my kids weaned due to pregnancy. That cannot be considered CLW, b/c, if I hadn't been pregnant, chances are great that those children would have continued nursing. Now, my dd1 nursed thru my pregnancy, and we ended up tandem nursing. She was just more persistant than the others, I suppose. But, it doesn't mean that the ones who weaned during my pregnancy CLWed.


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## seren (Jul 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
Seren, I don't want you to feel defensive, but:

So was he just not eating *anything*?

So, at what age is appropriate to start giving solids? I don't remember the exact age, but it was some time before that. Not just for my own benefit. My son was almost labeled failure to thrive. We starting feeding him food, trying to get him to gain any weight at all. Rather than 1 ounce in a few months. And, like I said, I refuse to allow anyone to make me feel guilty.

Sorry, I'm cranky today.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

As I said, I am NOT trying to make you feel defensive OR guilty.

But, this was supposed to be a discussion on the ability of children to CLW before a certain age.

I also introduced solids to my children well before their first birthday. BUT, if they showed dimenished nursing I cut back on their other liquids *first*. Why? Because bmilk was the healthies thing they ate--- if they were going to limit what they ate, I was going to limit their choices to what was best for them.

I am not attacking you, just pointing out that there are all different takes on this situation.

Kay


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Seren---

I wanted to add a few things:

1)









2) I wanted to clarify while I believe certain things, and I would recommend certain things to a mother in this situation (such as offering nursing before food, etc...) I in no way would want to instill guilt *after* the situation is over and gone. What is done is done and there is NO way to tell if you could have done anything to alter the outcome. If you are not having additional children, put it out of your mind.


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*







I'm one of those. I'll be happy to discuss it with you, if you like - just generally prefer not to get caught up in another "Do I fit someone else's criteria for CLW?" thread. (Says I as I happily nurse my almost-4-year-old for the umpteen millionth time today).

I agree with Dragonfly (that's a surprise!) I have never believed that my nursing relationship with my children was so tenuous that to have to delay (not just out of "convenience") or when pregnant, to *ask* my dd if we could nurse at 6 am, instead of 5 am (which often left us both awake and tired for the day) would lead them to weaning. My dd was 4 at that time and quite ok with it. When my son wanted to nurse *again* and we had to meet my dd at the door of her music lesson, I asked him to wait until we collected his sister (he was 3).

I shudder at such absolutes on these forums and hope that moms who are reading and aspire to CLW realize they can set an occassional limit or make adjustments if they need to, and it doesn't spell the word "wean". I am not talking about solids at 4 mos., pacifiers or dad walking a crying baby at night.

Perhaps I have been fortunate that my children have been eager nursers, but I think sometimes moms need encouragement and support....that may actually help to preserve a nursing relationship. Perhaps it is the trust my children have that I respect our nursing, and will never make the weaning decision for them that has enabled us to continue. We practice CLW, it is just that the precautions you take as infant not to encourage weaning can change as the child grows into childhood.


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## resimom (Jul 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom4tot*
or dad walking a crying baby at night.

you make such good points







.

i do want to say i think dad walking a crying baby at night does not need to spell wean either.

we moms are only human. i can vaguely remember my dh walking and trying to comfort one of our babies at night because my exhaustion had reached the point that it was no longer safe for me to not let him help. i certainly don't think of that as the first step in clw.

even now, with my youngest nurslings being toddlers, there are times that i am too tired to continue nursing them both safely and still more times that they refuse to nurse with the other baby. i don't see that dh taking one of them to rock until the other goes to sleep is a step clw, i only see it as what gets us through another night.

and finally, i have another child who i would like to let clw. however, when she was 2 years old i had twins. i only have two breasts







. she is still nursing but i did have to put limits on it. if there are three wanting to nurse at a given time someone has to wait.

the strict definitions and ultimatums just don't always work in real life.


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Forgive me resimom. I wasn't referring to the scenario you describe









I was actually referring to moms who are attempting to wean, but the night nursings are of course, the hardest. As a LLL leader, I have asked if they have help at night...that sometimes dad can soothe the baby eaiser than mom who the baby knows could nurse him/ her. It sounds like you could use an extra boob!


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## resimom (Jul 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *resimom*
i can vaguely remember my dh walking and trying to comfort one of our babies at night because my exhaustion had reached the point that it was no longer safe for me to not let him help.

to clarify: i did not reach this point with my singletons.

but then i was thinking, there were some times (few, very few) that a teething baby would not nurse and preferred to be carried by dad. our kiddos teethe late, starting at about a year, so i think dad carrying a cryer can be child led.
i guess i'm feeling a bit defensive about the crying thing. when i had singletons i almost never heard them cry. my twins have cried more, it is just impossible to meet all their needs instantly *especially* if you refuse help from dad.

my dh jokes that even though he is a seasoned dad he didn't *really* get to help with a newborn until we had twins.


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## resimom (Jul 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom4tot*
It sounds like you could use an extra boob!









lol! we were cross posting. no more boobs for me tyvm







.


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

I agree about dads helping out doesn't rule out clw. My dd cluster nursed as an infant, from 6 pm to 12:30 am. There were a few nights around 11 or when dh walked with her for a little while, when my breasts couldn't take it anymore.

Ben sometimes cried in the evening, he wouldn't nurse. He would cry for a half hour or so. Totally different from dd, who never cried and nursed 24/7. Babies can be so different. I know it is hard to hear them cry...I can't imagine twins AND a toddler


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## mcsarahb (Aug 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *resimom*
there were some times (few, very few) that a teething baby would not nurse and preferred to be carried by dad.

This discussion and particularly this quote caught my eye...because my baby almost always prefers to be with dad to go to sleep, and has since she was under 1 mo. old.







SO many of my friends are starting to worry that their babies have "suck-to-sleep association," and I'm sitting here WISHING my babe had such a wonderful thing!

My dd is only 4 mos., and I *thought* our nursing relationship was pretty good - she's fat and happy, etc. Except, nursing is often hard for her, because of my continued overactive letdown, and she often refuses the breast for an hour or two before she will calm down to nurse for bedtime. She rarely nurses to sleep, for naps too, and usually prefers to be rocked/bounced/walked by DH.

So am I jeopardizing my future nursing relationship with her? How do I improve the nursing experience? We have done everything we can to deal with the letdown issue - she still nurses on one side for 2-4 feedings. Nighttime is good; she loves nursing while asleep (literally - eyes never open), but daytime feedings are getting less and less frequent already.

Help! (Should I start a new thread?)

Sarah


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## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom4tot*
I shudder at such absolutes on these forums and hope that moms who are reading and aspire to CLW realize they can set an occassional limit or make adjustments if they need to, and it doesn't spell the word "wean". I am not talking about solids at 4 mos., pacifiers or dad walking a crying baby at night.

Perhaps I have been fortunate that my children have been eager nursers, but I think sometimes moms need encouragement and support....that may actually help to preserve a nursing relationship. Perhaps it is the trust my children have that I respect our nursing, and will never make the weaning decision for them that has enabled us to continue. We practice CLW, it is just that the precautions you take as infant not to encourage weaning can change as the child grows into childhood.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Back to the original topic for a minute...

It's interesting to me that my friends who have many children who child-led weaned never seem to end up with one of thoese "weaned at 15 months" kids. I really think that many women do things that short circuit the nursing relationship without realizing it, which is easy to do when living in a culture where most of us haven't been exposed to many natural-weaning breastfeeding relationships until we have our own babies. I do think it's important to offer the breats to toddlers and older children, it was part of my parenting toolbox throughout Rain's nursing years.

Here's an article Kathy Dettwyler wrote years ago about "The Natural Age of Weaning" (it corrects that old 4.2 years average worldwide weaning age misconception, too).

http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detwean.html

I really think child-led weaning before 2 is quite unusual. When you think about it, throughout most of human history this would be a really high-risk behavior for a baby, and would greatly increase the child's chances of mortality. The availability of nutritious, easily-digested food that needs little or no chewing is not the way things have generally been. I don't think this is about making women "feel bad", but about gaining knowledge and understanding about how breastfeeding and weaning work.

Here's another link, about my friend Tane' and her son's 40-day nursing strike. He's just turned 10 now, just by the way.

http://tachyonlabs.com/40strike.html

Of the people I know personally, the youngest child-led weaning was at 26 months, an the oldest child was 8 (I know two kids who weaned at 8).

Dar


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## DesireeH (Mar 22, 2003)

My son is will be 23 months in 8 minutes.....LOL So he is a month shy of 2 years. He hasnt nursed since Sunday. Right now I am not offering or refusing but I still feel like he is weaning on his own. He has told me "no mama, no booba" after like 30 seconds of nursing a few times....

I dont think I have to go up to him and put my boob in his face and say "Jevin, do you want a booba right now?" and have him refuse in order to be considered "letting him wean when he was ready."

I guess it just doesnt make sense to me...its like saying "des, do you want a twinkie?" and if I say yes or no, then it was my decision but if I just didnt eat the twinkie on my own, without someone asking me, then it wasnt my decision?

Knowing that he is bf until 2 makes me happy. I know he is ready......and I am ready too. Maybe he can sense that I am ready to be done, who knows......maybe it does have something to do with me, but I am 100% proud of making it this far, CLW title or not!

If a mom says her child self weaned at 18 months, let her have that, yk? She gave her baby a great start in life.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DesireeH*
I dont think I have to go up to him and put my boob in his face and say "Jevin, do you want a booba right now?" and have him refuse in order to be considered "letting him wean when he was ready."

Well, not out of the blue... but when Rain was 2 1/2 and she fell and bonked her head and was crying, I would scoop her up, snuggle her, and offer a boob. When she was tired and resisting sleep, I would snuggle her up and offer a boob. This was the general pattern I saw with women whose children weaned at 3 and 4 or older - nursing was part of the day, it wasn't ritualized into specific feedings at specific times and places, and it was a used not only when the child was hungry, but when she was sleepy, or hurting, or cranky... it was a way to reconnect. This is what I see as part of the natural progression of many nursing relationships. Women who saw nursing only as food missed this, as did women who weren't comfortable nursing outside of their homes.

Dar

Dar


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## DesireeH (Mar 22, 2003)

He still hasnt nursed since Sunday and that WAS in public. When he is sleepy he doesnt want to nurse.....he says "no booba!" if I try to nurse him. I just think he is ready. No he is not 3-4 but if he doesnt want to, then he doesnt want to, even though he is only 23 months. He hasnt used nursing only for hunger either. During his whole life so far, it was comfort as well as food.

I am sure he doesnt get much these days from nursing foodwise, when he is hungry he says "baby shimps" (shrimp) or "brocki" (his fav foods) and nothing about nursing. LOL


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
Well, not out of the blue... but when Rain was 2 1/2 and she fell and bonked her head and was crying, I would scoop her up, snuggle her, and offer a boob. When she was tired and resisting sleep, I would snuggle her up and offer a boob. This was the general pattern I saw with women whose children weaned at 3 and 4 or older - nursing was part of the day, it wasn't ritualized into specific feedings at specific times and places, and it was a used not only when the child was hungry, but when she was sleepy, or hurting, or cranky... it was a way to reconnect. This is what I see as part of the natural progression of many nursing relationships. Women who saw nursing only as food missed this, as did women who weren't comfortable nursing outside of their homes.

Dar

Dar

Very good point Dar.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
This was the general pattern I saw with women whose children weaned at 3 and 4 or older - nursing was part of the day, it wasn't ritualized into specific feedings at specific times and places, and it was a used not only when the child was hungry, but when she was sleepy, or hurting, or cranky... it was a way to reconnect.

Definitely a good point. I think, though, that not offering the breast to an older toddler/child does not equate to viewing nursing only as a food source or as something to be done at certain times and places. (I apologize if I've missed the point, but it seemed to me that the two were being equated).

I rarely offer the breast to my son. I would say that our nursing relationship, on most days, looks like a "don't offer, don't refuse" relationship. I don't purposely not offer, I'm just used to our dynamic. He's quick to ask whenever he needs it (or not even ask verbally, just move into position to let me know what he needs). He seems to need to nurse pretty frequently these days, and quite sporadically. When he first turned 3, he was at a point where he very rarely wanted to nurse in public. Now, at almost 4, he's more likely to ask. So, our nursing relationship is anything but ritualized.

I agree that "don't offer, don't refuse" can be part of weaning - or perhaps lead directly to weaning for some children who are not so focused on nursing. But I think mother-led weaning for many children has to be more purposeful than *just* "don't offer, don't refuse."

Just my two cents, anyway.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Dar---

Thanks for posting the 40 days nursing strike story. Wow!

This cracked me up, though:

Quote:

On the more kinky end of things (I already told ****** about this), I've also been using a very lifelike poodle puppet to give him "lessons." I lay on my back with my shirt up and say "doggie open mouth wide" and open the poodle's mouth. Then I say "Arthur open mouth wide and he opens his mouth. Then I latch the poodle on and say "drink go in doggie's mouth." Then I have the poodle "nurse" and say "doggie go drink, drink, drink" until Arthur pushes the poodle off and puts his own mouth on.
:LOL


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## kaimama (Jul 21, 2003)

I don't know why I don't just keep away from this thread. It's weird, like I have to prove that I wasn't doing anything detrimental to our nursing relationship. We nursed in public all the time, it was the only way he'd fall asleep until he was 14 months old, he nursed for comfort. I always offered the breast before solid food. But I guess I won't be able to convince anyone that he weaned himself at almost 18 months old, and I'm not even sure why I feel the need to.


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## resimom (Jul 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaimama*
But I guess I won't be able to convince anyone that he weaned himself at almost 18 months old, and I'm not even sure why I feel the need to.

i believe you







.


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## chel (Jul 24, 2004)

kaimama- I believe you, too. I do believe that a chld can wean "early". I think it has alot to do with how much they are "into" solid foods. My dd is 4 and still nurses 2-3x/day. I did all the non CLW stuff such as "don't offer/ don't refuse"-for the most part, though I did push night weaning at 15m- only nursing 1x/night, stopped NIP at 3yr. dd just likes to suck on boobs. She mildly got into paci from 6-15m and never really liked sippy cups. dd was never into nursing when upset or hurt, she usually got angry, not sad, and was to concerned with getting back to the activity so this was never a "nursing time for us". But I know there has to be babies that as they grow they really loose their desire for sucking especially when they see their parents eating and when they have access to food they physically can eat. My dd also has this trait, in that all I have to do to get her to try something is to eat it myself. It's just that she also has an intense need to suck that I believe has kept her going.


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## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

Ack, busy at work and no time to read the whole thread (only got to page 2), but clothcrazymom, do I know you from another board?

I unfortunately got a little emotional on another board last week on much the same subject (in a nutshell, a woman was concerned her 9 month old was self-weaning (it was clearly reverse cycling) but that led to a clamor of posts about babies who had self-weaned before the age of 1 year)

Like others, I believe based on what I have read that the child who truly self-weans (as opposed to CRW as defined previously in the thread) before the age of 18 months or so is extremely rare. Nearly every time there are predisposing factors. I argued this on the other board, as I feel the semantics are very important when one talks about them with other people, as it perpetuates the notion that self-weaning at an early age is common and discourages moms whose babies are going through a nursing strike from aggressively pursuing ways to reverse the strike.

I'll come back and read this whole thread over the weekend hopefully.


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## cozymama (Apr 27, 2004)

Kaimama, I believe you- but more importantly I believe in your instincts as a mom, your little one's instincts and your ability to foster the best nursing relationship for both of you







I don't know about the rest of ya, but I live in a very not-breastfeeding friendly environment and thus i REALLY value support, info and love from other bfing moms- ALL bfing moms. The community where I am in daily life is so small I can't imagine making further divisions.....definitely not the message I want to send to ds either.

I like mother_sunshine's idea of "child-led breastfeeding" for me, this emcompasses my relationship with my son. from what some ppl are saying, it appears that others belive CLW to be defined mostly, if not entirely, by the last nursing session- i.e. was it the child's choice to stop or not, did they inititate it, etc. OTOH, i'd like to think of nursing ds as a dynamic, creative, relationship that is more about (constant, hehe) bfing- not about weaning.

it's also not parent-led either though- i offer when he uses nurses, when he's hurt, etc. but if he doesn't want to bf that's fine. i'd never "cut back" on his food to try to get him to nurse more. he will make the choice that is right for his body. i know breastmilk is better than broccoli but i also know that even as a toddler he deserves to have his opinions and desires taken seriously. the times he has refused- when he's playing intensely or sees a food he wants- he just "makes up" for it by nursing more later.....









peace
h*mama

Edited to add: please forgive the grammar mistakes!! In re-reading I realized that some may consider me, as the parent, "leading" since I do offer the breast but I tend to envision our bfing relationship as somewhat intuitive, so perhaps I too need a new term to describe everything









Reverse cycling?? My son still does this at 20 months.....all the time.....even when we are together the entire day/night. Maybe some are just night-eaters


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## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

kaimama, finally read more of the thread and didn't want you to think i was directing my comments at you. personally, i think 18 months (while less common) is perfectly within a range for CLW. the moms (and dad) i was talking with were talking about babies as young as 4-6 months in cases where they were nightweaning, using CIO, supplementing with formula, etc.


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## yoga (May 1, 2002)

Chiming in a bit late, but I wanted to address

Quote:

I shudder at such absolutes on these forums and hope that moms who are reading and aspire to CLW realize they can set an occassional limit or make adjustments if they need to, and it doesn't spell the word "wean". I am not talking about solids at 4 mos., pacifiers or dad walking a crying baby at night.
What is the point in having terms if they don't have meaning? If a term like "child-led weaning" exists, it's b/c there are certain things that fall under the category and certain things that don't. Perhaps different people have different perspectives, but that doesn't mean all perspectives are correct. "Child-led" means "child-led". If parents want to guide their kids, that's fine, but that doesn't mean the child is actually leading. Just like "choice" is not always "choice" amongst parents. Someone above mentioned offering a twinkie and if the child takes it, was that not a decision, even if the child didn't instigate the twinkie issue. Sure, it's a decision, but it's not a child-led decision. Child-led means the child instigated it. I don't think having that as an absolute is such a big deal. Actually, it seems critical in understanding terms such as this.

It's standard at our LLL meetings to point out that anytime anything other than the breast is put to the child's mouth for feeding times, weaning has been introduced. That's usually pointed out during discussions of "what to tell people when they ask when the child will wean". Perhaps if that's not truly what LLL Leaders mean, they should rephrase.









If one's baby wants to nurse, the mom knows the baby wants to nurse, but offers something other than the breast, what is that if not instigating weaning? Offering limits is not "wrong", but shouldn't we be completely open about what can trigger a child to wean and what encourages weaning?

CLW can occur on a huge spectrum. But, there has to be a solid definiton of CLW if there is to be such a term in existance and it be something to discuss and aim for in our relationships with our children.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chaka Falls*
It's standard at our LLL meetings to point out that anytime anything other than the breast is put to the child's mouth for feeding times, weaning has been introduced.

If that's the case, then child-led weaning doesn't really exist, does it, if a child is ingesting food before he/she can seek it out, obtain it, and fix it up for him/herself? (In which case, probably not at all in our society).



> Offering limits is not "wrong", but shouldn't we be completely open about what can trigger a child to wean and what encourages weaning? [.quote]
> 
> The operative word there, though, is "can." Perhaps setting limits will encourage one child to wean while another's nursing rhythm won't be at all impacted by limits.
> 
> ...


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## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

Dragonfly and Mom4tot said it so well, but I'll add my 2-cents (again







).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chaka Falls*
What is the point in having terms if they don't have meaning? If a term like "child-led weaning" exists, it's b/c there are certain things that fall under the category and certain things that don't. Perhaps different people have different perspectives, but that doesn't mean all perspectives are correct. "Child-led" means "child-led".

The point of having CLW discussions here at MDC is not to give mothers stringent guidelines to religiously follow (and if they don't then they don't "belong") but rather to invite support and understanding of one another's experiences for those who are choosing to let their children wean when they are ready. I think that is the only absolute you can place on CLW, the child stops breastfeeding when he/she is ready. Everyone has their own ideas and ideals for their breastfeeding relationship, we are all different and alike in some way. Placing such stringent expectations on a mother is not the point. I don't want to scare mothers away simply because a very few are placing a very narrow definition on CLW to the point that they are saying those who don't follow it are parent-led weaning their children regardless of when the child decides to fully wean. To me, that is ridiculous and I too shudder at that. If it were a true and absolute scientific definition, which it is not, then I don't think anyone could call themselves CLW (if you wait until each child has fully weaned). I have noticed those who vocalize the stringent definition tend to have children who are still in the very early stages of breastfeeding. I have nothing against that _as long as_ it is clear that it is their _own definition_ not _the defintion_ of the word.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chaka Falls*
It's standard at our LLL meetings to point out that anytime anything other than the breast is put to the child's mouth for feeding times, weaning has been introduced. That's usually pointed out during discussions of "what to tell people when they ask when the child will wean". Perhaps if that's not truly what LLL Leaders mean, they should rephrase.









Yes, in the stretch of the word "wean", weaning does start when anything other than breastmilk is introduced. But in the absolute of the word, even in this case, "wean" is ultimately the complete cessation of breastfeeding. I don't think anyone could argue with that.

I have always seen the use of "we _are_ weaning" as a means to either get people to stop asking "when will they wean?", or to soothe the mother's worries that her child "will never wean", or simply to open the mind of the mother to see that breastfeeding is a process and weaning does happen naturally not suddenly.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chaka Falls*
If one's baby wants to nurse, the mom knows the baby wants to nurse, but offers something other than the breast, what is that if not instigating weaning? Offering limits is not "wrong", but shouldn't we be completely open about what can trigger a child to wean and what encourages weaning?

I think the key word here is "baby". I think we all agree that babies should be nursed on demand without limits. When I think of childled weaning, I personally think of children beyond toddlerhood (or at least well into toddlerhood) only because that is when weaning will eventually happen, and that is when the mother (not all, but most, generally speaking) ultimately knows whether or not she will let her child decide when to wean or not. This is when limits, within reason, are a healthy part of life. Children need their parents to teach them what limits are.....learning how to wait, compromising, meeting and respecting one another's needs....to teach them what it is to be a part of a loving relationship. Childled weaning shouldn't mean letting your child completely dictate the breastfeeding relationship.

Quote:

CLW can occur on a huge spectrum. But, there has to be a solid definiton of CLW if there is to be such a term in existance and it be something to discuss and aim for in our relationships with our children.
In the past couple of years that we have had discussions on CLW, only recently have I heard such narrow definitions on the term. We need to be very careful here. Some mothers are already excluding themselves because of a very few who call it "all or nothing". I think if we place such stringent guidelines on CLW then it will become an obsolete term which will inevitably leave many mothers out who thrive (and will thrive) on one another's support.


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

mother_sunshine


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

T

Quote:

If that's the case, then child-led weaning doesn't really exist, does it, if a child is ingesting food before he/she can seek it out, obtain it, and fix it up for him/herself?
I don't agree with that. IMO, if there is food on someone else's plate and a child propels themselves to it and stuffs in in their own mouth, they made a choice.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Coming in late in the thread. I have only read the first couple pages but wanted to answer the OP's question.

The youngest I have witnessed a child self wean is about three. This is my experience with my close friends. Most of their kids weaned somewhere between three (or slightly before) and about 4- 5 years.

One of my friends thinks that she CLW by creating an end date and stopping cold turkey. She stopped directly after her son turned two. There was at least a month of defiance and anger coming from her normally gentle son, but she felt it was a step she needed to take. She still wants to call it CLW..I think to help her with her desision.

The others I know that allowed their children to subtley, intuitively wean did not go through that stage.

My DD is almost three and I see signs of her decline in bfing, more interest in cuddling. I stay present, try to see the subtle signs of weaning she offers and take cues from that.

Take care all
Colleen


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
I don't agree with that. IMO, if there is food on someone else's plate and a child propels themselves to it and stuffs in in their own mouth, they made a choice.

I don't agree with it either, necessarily (I was just responding with a possible interpretation of Chaka's statement). I think some *would* agree, though. There is another view that even when a child grabs food, puts it in their mouth and swallows, they're not necessarily ready to eat and allowing it is a step toward weaning.

It's just another example of how many grey issues there are with respect to CLW.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

There is another view that even when a child grabs food, puts it in their mouth and swallows, they're not necessarily ready to eat and allowing it is a step toward weaning.








I guess I just don't understand how a child could initiante getting their own food then. If picking it up and feeding themselves isn't good enough. I'm not attacking you, I just would love to know what "child led weaned" kids do in this belief system.... suddenly go to the store with their saved allowance when the are five and buy some dinner?


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*







I guess I just don't understand how a child could initiante getting their own food then. If picking it up and feeding themselves isn't good enough. I'm not attacking you, I just would love to know what "child led weaned" kids do in this belief system.... suddenly go to the store with their saved allowance when the are five and buy some dinner?

That's my point, exactly, Tired. I don't get it either.

So at what point is it not parent-initiated weaning to offer a child food? My guess is it differs for everyone and is mostly contingent upon the child's nursing rhythm (which, hopefully, the mother is in tune with). This is just one example of why I'm really uncomfortable with such a narrow definition of child-led weaning.


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## CanadianMomof4 (Feb 13, 2006)

:2bfbabe:







:

Hi I have never heard the term nursing strike before. How do you know when your child is on a strike and what do you do? Could it be that they are just not getting enough from you? I enjoy nursing so much. My daughter is 5 months old she is my fourth child. My past three nusing experinces did not go very well. I think they may have been on a strike but I thought they were weaning themselves. Why is nursing strikes not spoke of more often? Any helpful advice for me so this nursing experince goes better. Thanks Canadianmomof4 Amber

sorry I posted this twice It is my first time posting. I am not that used to the computer.


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## CanadianMomof4 (Feb 13, 2006)

:2bfbabe:







:









Hi I have never heard the term nursing strike before. How do you know when your child is on a strike and what do you do? Could it be that they are just not getting enough from you? I enjoy nursing so much. My daughter is 5 months old she is my fourth child. My past three nusing experinces did not go very well. I think they may have been on a strike but I thought they were weaning themselves. Why is nursing strikes not spoke of more often? Any helpful advice for me so this nursing experince goes better. Thanks Canadianmomof4 Amber


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## velcromom (Sep 23, 2003)

I generally would consider any refusal to nurse to be a nursing strike unless my child is over two. I think one of the reasons that in North America, especially the US, nursing strikes are not spoken of is that culture here values independence and sees weaning as a sign of it, so any refusal to nurse is more likely to be seen as a positive thing instead of being recognized as a negative. People here seem to want their kids to drop their infant needs as quickly as possible, so it doesn't occur to them to see the disadvantages of premature weaning.

Here are a couple of articles about nursing strikes:

http://www.kellymom.com/bf/concerns/...to-breast.html

http://www.seldomfar.com/nurturing/nursing.htm


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Holy Thread Revival Mamas!

Ok, so when I posted on this thread originally, my ds was about 2.5 years old and nursing up a storm.

Now, he's about to turn four, and still nursing to sleep, nursing at night, nursing to wake, and nursing once or twice or even not at all during the day.

I say we still have about a year to go, but he says he'll nurse until he's sixteen


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velcromom*
I generally would consider any refusal to nurse to be a nursing strike unless my child is over two.

I would also closely look at any *sudden* change in nursing frequency carefully. If your child has set an end date that is one thing, but if they are nursing 4,5,6 times daily and then suddenly NOTHING, there might be another issue than simple weaning readiness.


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