# Continuum concept (ish) Tribe



## Brisen

I read The Continuum Concept when ds#1 was, oh, something like 8 months. I found it interesting and love the basic idea. I'm not an extreme CCer, but I'm interested in getting more back to it. Any CCing (or close to it) moms here?


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## farmer mama

Hi, I really liked a lot of the ideas in CC, especially the concepts about holding your baby constantly during the "in arms" phase, children having freedom from constant "hovering", and being open to children imitating your tasks. A while ago I was hanging out with some moms from Indonesia, and I was amazed at the lack of interaction/ supervision these women had with their kids, like just trusting a toddler wouldn't just walk off a balcony! At first I was appalled and then realized that they came from a culture with a more continuum concept of child rearing. I still have questions about how well this level of trust works in our modern world of concrete, cars, etc.
Edited to add: In light of all the ism talk here I just wanted to be clear that from my impression these were good moms raising their children here in the states in a more traditional way, and my post is trying to relate how from my western perspective it was unusual and shocking, until I tried to have some understanding of their child-rearing norms. I have read some of Leidoff's writings on observing Balinese cultures and was just applying some of these observations here, in order to get a more complete picture. Of course the kids were fine and the toddler didn't fall off the balcony, and I could tell that my way of interacting with my child was unusual to them. Hope that makes sense and isn't offensive to anyone, if so let me know. I wasn't making a blanket statement about Indonesian culture, just my observations as the only white mother in a particular group of Indonesian mamas, and being curious about different and similar ideas about child rearing.


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## farmer mama

One more thing and then I will be quiet. Like most books on childrearing I take some information and suggestions that resonate and don't apply the things I don't agree with. As a whole I liked this book but some of her ideas, particularly about homosexuality, were pretty off the mark in my opinion. I read it a long time ago, does anybody else remember this? Brisen- I am curious what ideas do you use from the book? Mine are of course baby wearing, but also I am big on trying to give my kids freedom to explore unhampered by my concerns, so I avoid saying "be careful! watch out! not too high/ far/ fast/ etc" unless there is an immediate danger. The way I implement this in todays way of living is by making our home, yard and woods safe areas for exploration (no cars, things like glass or chemicals), and watch my kids without hovering over them or constantly guiding their play.


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## MamaAllNatural

Yep, count me in! I agree it's quite outdated though and I did find the part on homosexuality offensive. I wish she'd do a revised version. Also, I felt that she based every thing on this one small tribe so some of her "arguments" were a bit weak in that respect. Overall though I think everything she says is right on and very important. I already felt and knew most of the things she says and suggests but it was good to have it reinforced. I would love to hear about the exact ways you all implement things from the book into your daily lives. If she'd revise it I'd make everybody read it, but I'm worried many would discount it because of some of her outdated ideas. I wish more people could be enlightened by this book. I look forward to discussing it further.


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## EnviroBecca

I love the book and feel that ~80% of it is very similar to the attitude with which my parents raised me and with which my partner and I intend to raise our child. Before reading the book, I had summed up this attitude as, "We are all people together. This is how we do things." In addition to preventing many parent-child power struggles, I think it is very helpful in developing a healthy attitude toward responsibility and an amicable relationship between the adult child and her parents.

There is a Continuum Concept Website that isn't as thorough as I would like, but it does include Liedloff's retraction of her musings on homosexuality, her observations of several cultures other than the Yequana, and some articles about applying CC to real life in the "first world".

Here is my take on "how well this level of trust works in our modern world of concrete, cars, etc.": These risks are not fundamentally different from the risks of jungle animals, rough water, and knives in the world of the Yequana. We just need to develop our senses to keep us safe in our world. Have you ever tried to EXPLAIN how you maneuver a car in traffic without bumping into things? It's very hard to verbalize, because it's only thru experience that you have developed the ability to "sense" where the edges of the car are. Some of the safety skills we need are learned at a later age but become second nature, like driving skills; others are readily developed from the innate human skills if over-cautious parents don't intervene. Knowing better than to walk off a cliff/balcony edge, for example, is a sense that develops naturally in babies old enough to crawl. Remember, humans are the most advanced of animals, and most animals have lots of safety sense at the time they become self-locomoting!

For those skills that are learned, "This is how we do things." is an effective way of teaching. My parents used to say, "In the parking lot, we all hold hands," in the same tone as, "On Thanksgiving, we eat turkey."--no worries verbalized. Holding hands, they would demonstrate the appropriate way to walk: looking around a lot, stepping back from moving cars. They would narrate their own behavior at the most important points: "Look to the left; look to the right; wait for the car. Look to the left again." No formal instruction was required to teach me to walk safely across a parking lot by myself, because by the time it came up, I'd had plenty of experience and they'd seen that I was walking safely. Of course, much of this experience is built up by taking children nearly everywhere parents go and by having them walk as soon as it's feasible rather than cocooning them in strollers.


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## tea olive

hey ladies. the tcc is a big influence on me, recommended to me after i had my second baby. it was the only parenting book i read for a year. i thought i would go crazy with two kids and learned nurse in a sling. both my younger two babes have been in arms and i just wish i had done it for the first.

i was part of the listserv for awhile but it swamped me emotionally. of course i'm sure it is different now. but it is good to remember that leidloff never had children, and that it is one book. i think what i got out of it is accepting that life is hard and rich, and learning to evaluate and live with less fear.
here are my fotos
http://community.webshots.com/user/casina102
ruby (17mo) is banging the keyboard for me to get off.


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## Brisen

I agree that while the book is great overall, there are many problems. IIRC, she didn't write it as a parenting book; the subtitle is "In Search of Happiness Lost." It was to help unhappy adults who weren't CC parented realize why they were unhappy and try to fix it -- hence the stuff about crawling therapy and why adults love roller coasters. I haven't actually read it since my first time, more than 3 years ago, I should borrow it again. I have been trying to branch out and learn more about different traditional cultures, to get a more balanced view of "CC life."

I like to focus on making sure that I'm not being child-centred or parent-centred, but rather life-centred. Actually, I guess I see it more as a way to work on me as a whole person, rather than using it as a "parenting guide," IYKWIM. I have come to realize that, as much as I was paying lip service to being there for your child etc. as an AP-leaning parent, at the end of the day I was still compartmenalizing my life -- must get child gently to sleep at breast or in sling so I can do the dishes. Must put my needs and interests on hold until baby is old enough to be without me. I love the shift in focus that says I can live my life and include the kids -- they need that. I'm not saying that AP or any other kind of parents don't see it this way, it's just that I needed CC to club me over the head with it, lol. That being said, I struggle with wanting to do things on my own, in my own way, or manipulating my kids so things go the way I need them to be instead of just modeling and calmly radiating my expectation and that this is the done thing (I'm thinking of getting into the car in time for an appointment, or brushing teeth, for example).

I also wish my kids had a greater variety of people in their lives. There are a good amount of kids in our neighbourhood to play with, and I know lots of sahms who want to get together for playdates, but then they want to sit and talk while the kids play. This doesn't work well for me. I know a few older kids and adults who like spending time with my kids, but it's very limited. My 4 yo in particular has always loved talking with adults. I just find it hard giving him what he needs in that area. I don't know many adults who like hanging out with kids in the way he wants to hang out, IYKWIM. Most either want them to go and play on their own, or want to orchestrate some big child-centred activity.

And about safety -- I don't think I've met the "cc ideal" in this area, though I do trust my kids a lot more than most other parents we encounter. Cars is something I have a problem with. I grew up in a rural area, I hate crossing big roads! I'm the kind who stands on the grass instead of the sidewalk with the kids when waiting for the light to change. We live in a townhouse/condo complex, so there are a bunch of small parking lots throughout in front of the rows of homes. I have explained to my kids that the parking lot and roads are where the cars belong, and the sidewalk and grass is where people belong. Most other families here let their kids play in the parking lot. This is something I'm just not comfortable with -- largely for dks' safety, but also because, well, it is a parking lot -- it isn't a playground, yk? I wouldn't want them to damage any cars, either. And in the summer, it's just to hot and sunny to play in the parking lot, when we have nice shady grass out back!

Glad to see some other ccers here!


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## Elzabet

Hi!! I read CC about 2 months after bringing Gabriel home and it just seemed so normal to try and rear a child in that manner or as close to it as I could manage here in tribeless suburbia.

One of the things we've taken from the CC book is that we tend to trust Gabriel more than some people. I know that makes a lot of difference because _he knows we trust him_ to make decisions on his own and so he tries to. He doesn't always make the "right" choice because he's still a baby but the fact that we gove him the freedom to malke those choices has helped make him very confident. I know that when I was a child not being able to make choices about things really grated on me.

I do notice that Gabriel is more outgoing and independent (by comparison) and he seemed to be more physically "able" at certain ages than others--that is he reached milestones before other kids. I really believe it is a result of us keeping him with us (and on us) in these first months of his life. Have any of you noticed this? I think I read somewhere that near constant carrying a child helps them gain earlier control of their muscles.

Also by raising him this way, it's pointing up issues in my life where my "continuum" is incomplete or injured. I do realize JL didn't write CC as a parenting book but it helps identify a parent's personal issues so that they can try to raise their child in a more attached manner. Knowing what I know, I can deliberately make choices to not extend or project my personal weirdness to Gabriel. That is one of the big things I've noticed about our method of raising him.

Was that anywhere near coherent? If not I can try to be more vague.


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## tea olive

i've really enjoyed the posts. to do the continuum you need the community. it helped me to find a homeschooling group though i have an ideal in my head of how things could be better just due to architecture.

the friend that suggested the tcc a few years ago also lent me a book that i now own and lend out, and tend to link as a companion to the tcc in my mind. it is called a new beginning by abraham-hicks.


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## EnviroBecca

BUMP!!









I also wanted to say that I have found a wonderful "tribe" atmosphere in my church. It is a smallish congregation, about 200 people of all ages. We do all kinds of things together, and there's little attention to how old somebody is or whose child is biologically whose. If a 3-year-old wants to be read a story during the coffee hour, odds are the person who sits down to read to her is not her parent or sibling. Whenever there's a project to work on, or whenever you need help for yourself, you can count on somebody pitching in. It's my village!









Has anybody else found a village that works for you?


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## tea olive

for me that is my local homeschool group. highly recommended.


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## myrrhmaid

i'm re-reading tcc right now after reading it 14 yrs. ago when i had my son.
i'm trying to get to the point where i can learn to be my best parent-since mine were sadly lacking in many ways.
her descriptions of a baby kicking, aching, skin crawling, longing to be held/touched reminds me so much of myself as a listless child. it is excruciating emotionally to read her descriptions.
anyone else trying to make peace with their own lack of parenting through tcc?
i'm just about 1/2 way through and hoping to find some solid things i can do.
i'm curiuos about the riding roller coasters etc.
i haven't got that far yet-and don't remember it from the 1st time through.
nak


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## Brisen

Finding a tribe is definately tough.

There are some older kids here who like playing with little kids. (People who visit always seem surprised at this.) But, of course, I sometimes object to the kind of influence they have over my kids. I'm probably pretty conservative though -- I didn't like my kids coming home calling each other "bum bum head", lol. I introduced one of my mom friends to CC, she loved it, so that's nice. Unfortunately, we are now on opposite sides of town, so we don't get together much.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *myrhhmaid*
i'm curiuos about the riding roller coasters etc.

If I'm remembering correctly, JL believes that people crave the excitement of rollercoasters because they didn't get sort of turned and tossed around in arms.


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## MamaAllNatural

So there's really no hope of her writing an up to date version? I really want to recommend the book to people but they'll most likely discount it because of some of the statements she makes in it.


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## Elzabet

I think the book has been updated (at least sometime within the past 14 years). The TCC site makes mention of some changes she made in the articles section.


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## Periwinkle

I read the book and think it was extremely eye-opening. I have definitely changed the way I parent as a result, though in subtle ways. I wouldn't call myself a CC'er, but I am very careful about the "hovering" thing. I do think as a result, my dd and ds were able to go up and down stairs, climb up on kitchen chairs and sit down, etc. earlier than a lot of tots. My mom has noticed that we obsess a lot less about dd and ds getting into danger. Now, you have to counter that with the fact that we DID childproof - no cleaning supplies or vitamins, outlets plugged, etc. I think the heights/falling thing IS part of our continuum, but avoiding electrical outlets and cherry-flavored Tylenol most definitely is NOT, kwim? When we're at the playground, I also say "OK, time to head to the car" and just (slowly) start to walk to the car. I swear I'm not lying when I say 9 times out of 10 they toddle after me when the distance between us gets too far for their liking (not dangerous far, and of course I'm still watching them carefully). I started that when they learned to crawl and I hurt my back... I couldn't lift both of them simultaneously for a couple of weeks, so I would say, "Time to go to the stroller!" and walk out of the room to the stroller. And they would crawl after me so I could take them out to the car (our stroller stays in our front hall, and used to be handy transport to the car before they could walk). A lot of people I know have to chase after their kids. I NEVER made that into a game.... the whole, running around and fleeing mommy chase game when it's time to go somewhere.

Anyway, while I did get some really great perspectives from the book, I have several serious problems with it still. First, as others have mentioned, it's based on a very small sample of the human population. Second, she had no training in anthropology or sociology before she went on her first trip - she apparently made a whole lot of associations and inferences that first time (a common mistake in people unaccustomed to observing in a scientific way) that may have seriously clouded her judgement, especially when it came time to writing down what she was seeing and thinking about WHY things were the way they were. As in, "Look! The kids are happy! Let's find the first thing that sticks out as different from my culture [constant babywearing, for example] and call that the reason why!" I love babywearing and think it is wonderful, but that assessment (and others like it) seem a little naive to me and discount any number of other valid reasons why they may _seem_ happy to a girl from North America. There has also been a part of me that feels like the book is a little too, um, racist, for lack of a better word. I know that's super-inflammatory to say, but the whole "young white girl goes to an _uncivilized_ and _primitive_ tribe, thinking they're the next best thing to Neanderthals. I mean, who's to say they haven't advanced in ways that suit their own social, physical, economic, and demographic needs, just like the rest of us? Just because they don't have cars and TVs and Diet Coke doesn't make them "less than" us or "behind" us in my book. People have brilliant minds and are able to adapt to their circumstances in amazing ways -- just because the Yequana didn't communicate regularly with the "outside world" doesn't mean they haven't adapted or advanced since the dawn of time!







And yeah, the homosexuality thing bugs me too. I know she "retracted it" but it calls into question a lot of her judgements.

But... all this notwithstanding, I think it is a very good book - one perspective on human existence, and does raise some really interesting challenges to modern-day parents, especially as it relates to over-focus on young children, unwillingness to include children in daily chores, hovering and being over-protective, and bypassing the breastfeeding and "in arms" phase.

I do recommend it to people, even mainstream friends, because I think it is a good book and very interesting. But IMO it's not a "parenting book."


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## tea olive

the past week ruby has been fussy. and i know that it is with the influence of this book (even indirectly from having friends that parent similarly) that i can carry her in the sling, breast available, and even with all her complaining, know that i am doing what i can and go about my business, which today actually calmed her enough to fall asleep for a timely nap.
(hey don't get me wrong it isn't always that easy!)


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## EnviroBecca

Over lunch today, we were watching the toddler at the next table eating some kind of "carrots for toddlers" out of a jar, w/parents nudging her away every time she reached for their Chinese food, and we started discussing whether or not baby-food is "continuum". As for most things, I hesitate to make an unequivocal judgment, but it seems to me that IN GENERAL, having special separate food for your child distances her from the family/tribe. It's like saying, "You are not one of us; you are not allowed to eat what we eat." Of course, there are some foods that are too dangerous for people w/just a few teeth, but most adult meals have SOME components that can be eaten by toddlers.

My parents began letting us eat from their plates when we showed an interest. They planned meals for the family w/emphasis on things that would be easy for us to pick up and things they could easily mash and spoon-feed to us. We never had a highchair but sat on a parent's lap at the family table. The concepts of "your plate" and "use your fork" and "please pass the rice" got taught around 2-3 years old. I remember finding it odd when other adults would comment on how my brother and I ate foods that "kids don't like" (we did have a lot of individual preferences, but not many of the typical ones) and were willing to try some new things and were "well behaved" when eating w/adults--why did they expect us to be different?

What do you all think about baby-food?


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## Elzabet

I think baby-food is a waste of money to be honest. It makes no sense to "introduce" food to baby that is bland, and with no sort of seasoning when the foods they will be expected to eat later are not. Take veggies. Commercial baby food veggies taste totally different from mama-cooked veggies. They don't have the same texture and sometimes not even the same color. And the taste would put even the most die hard vegan off her feed.

Also, you end up introducing the same food twice that way because of the difference between commercial baby food and mama cooked foods. That is just a waste of time for both the parent and child. We let Gabriel eat some of what we were eating after a couple of months of wasting money on baby food for that very reason. We did it slowly over several weeks to see if he had any allergies or whatever (nope none). He enjoyed it and even though he's going through a weird eating phase right now, I think he'll be a well rounded eater later on.

And, for the record, he loves Chinese!


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## MamaAllNatural

I'm with you Beca!









Also, I felt that JL's main point is about the constant baby holding and carrying. I read some recent papers of hers on the 9 month "in arms period." It was really intriguing. It may have actually been written by one of her collegues. Did anyone else read this? I carried & wore my first probably as much as most attachment type parents. I wore my second even more and then I wore my 3rd pretty much constantly as she suggests. It was amazing to see the difference. Did any of you do this with any of yours? If so I would love to hear what differences you noticed.

*







T Casina, I meant to tell you I got your pics to work this time and, oh my, you guys are such a gorgeous family!


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## Elzabet

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaAllNatural*
Also, I felt that JL's main point is about the constant baby holding and carrying. I read some recent papers of hers on the 9 month "in arms period." It was really intriguing. It may have actually been written by one of her collegues. Did anyone else read this? I carried & wore my first probably as much as most attachment type parents. I wore my second even more and then I wore my 3rd pretty much constantly as she suggests. It was amazing to see the difference. Did any of you do this with any of yours? If so I would love to hear what differences you noticed.


I do notice that Gabriel is more outgoing and independent (by comparison) and he seemed to be more physically "able" at certain ages than others--that is he reached physical milestones before other kids. I read somewhere that near constant carrying a child helps them gain earlier control of their muscles and it also keeps them from getting overstimulated. From what I've seen with Gabriel and other carried babies that seems to be true. The babies I know who stayed in the plastic baby basket (car-seat) all the time stayed "infants" much longer--almost to a year old. I really believe it is a result of us keeping him with us (and on us) in that first year of his life.

I also think it helped that both dh and I carried him. Dh always preferred to carry him when we were out and about, so many times I had an empty sling. There are/were differences in how dh carries/d him and how I carry him and I think that benefitted him somehow too. Gabriel walked at 8.5 mos. My MIL said it was because he wanted to get some alone time.


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## MamaAllNatural

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Elzabet*
I do notice that Gabriel is more outgoing and independent (by comparison) and he seemed to be more physically "able" at certain ages than others--that is he reached physical milestones before other kids. I read somewhere that near constant carrying a child helps them gain earlier control of their muscles and it also keeps them from getting overstimulated. From what I've seen with Gabriel and other carried babies that seems to be true. The babies I know who stayed in the plastic baby basket (car-seat) all the time stayed "infants" much longer--almost to a year old. I really believe it is a result of us keeping him with us (and on us) in that first year of his life.

These are the differences I noticed too. I have always had him in a sling while cooking and working around the house, as well as when we're out visiting and running errands, and because I'm being active he sits back and relaxes and observes everything I'm doing. I feel like he's going to know how to cook a meal at only 1 year old!:LOL He also actually holds on to me and my sling with his hands and feet. I wear him on my back a lot and he moves his body is certain ways while we're bending over. He's just turned 9 months and is already thinking of walking.







(as he's my 3rd I'm not quite ready for that!). He also has more safety instincts like she describes in her book. He will crawl up to the edge of whatever and he knows not to go off. He's started turning around to back off but I really notice that he knows his boundries. I've just found this all so facinating and am so glad I have some mamas that actually know about tcc and can relate.







Oh and the happy and social thing...I totally agree!


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## tea olive

oh yay! mama, i think you are part of the reason i'm visiting mothering more often now. it seems to be going through a big change i should be part of.

well, i just fessed up on another thread that i've done pretty much everything nursing with sling except have sex.

what i find fascinating is the softness, the limp babyness of sling babies. my sil has had two children almost the same time as me and they are swing babies. i have always found them so stiff.

and ladies, i have to brag, because i can here, that the several kids i know with tcc minded mammas, are really marvelous, and are standing out more and more the older they get (the elder ones i know are in the sevens).


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## Brisen

Baby food -- so many reasons why I don't like it, esp. commercial (obviously). I did try out the cereal with dk#1, I admit it, I was excited about feeding him, milestones, yadda yadda







: I did it at about 6 months. I read more LLL stuff and other natural parenting stuff and realized he didn't need it. He also had a sensitivity to milk until he was almost 2, I think the dry cereals usually have milk in them, no? So, I stopped it pretty quickly. When I did go on to intro foods with him, I started with things that he could handle without any real alteration of them from me, like banana, really ripe nectarines or peaches, peas (he would eat them one at a time, popping them out of their skin -- at 4, he still does this with corn







), that kind of thing. This was at about age 1. With dk#2, I forget exactly when he started eating solids, but again, it was whatever he could safely handle. They both like a variety of foods, though dk#2 definately leans towards milk and starches -- he even makes faces at green stuff. But yellow/orange fruits and veggies he loves. I think with him it might also be that he doesn't like things that are mixed together. At one meal, he wants only potatoes, no gravy on them, and at the next, he wants only gravy; sometimes he'll eat just the bread on a sandwich, sometimes just the filling. Dk#1 is probably the least "picky eater" I know, but that might be genetic, since I'm not too discriminating in my tastes, either. Dh and dk#1 are more similar in they ways they eat -- dh loves starches and dairy. So, long story short, no baby food here.

I haven't fully slung either of my kids. Dk#1 I discovered CC later, and started slinging him around as much as I could then. He loved it. I had carried him quite a lot previous to that, he had a hard time sleeping any way other than propped up tummy-to-tummy with me, so we did that a lot, but once he was able to lay down for a nap, I started doing it. He was probably around 9 mos or 1. It was around this age also that I was able to unlatch him without him waking up at night. He was walking at 9 months, but still loved to be carried a lot. Dk#2 took really well to the sling, but was also very easy to put down when he slept. He got big fast -- so I did take advantage of that. He's just always been so easy going. He nursed in the sling a lot, especially when we were out. I did find it tricky to get stuff done around the house with him in the sling when he was little. I'm trying to find a good way to carry bigger babies on my back. I have a frame-style backpack, but it really gets in the way in the house. I have a rebozo, but he never liked being on my back in it. I didn't get it until he was around 1, so maybe if I had started earlier...? He was also walking at 9 months, and doesn't asked to be carried as much as dk#1 did, he likes being down a lot.

Do any of you CCing moms find you've had kids who didn't like the sling, or liked sleeping on their own? I have a friend with a baby who is, oh, 5 months, almost. She has carried him in arms pretty much exclusively until now, but she's finding that he sleeps better if she puts him down to sleep sometimes, and it's a relief to her. I've heard this from other moms, too -- baby didn't like the sling too much, and was happier sleeping out of arms.


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## MamaAllNatural

Quote:


Originally Posted by *casina*
what i find fascinating is the softness, the limp babyness of sling babies. my sil has had two children almost the same time as me and they are swing babies. i have always found them so stiff

Yep. This is so true. Everyone comments on how my babies just melt into them (the person whose holding them) and how they're so soft and squishy and conformable. I feel so bad but it really upsets me even more now to see a stiff baby (and my friend has one.







). It's just unnatural for their little bodies to be so tense and so untouched. I feel guilty for feeling sad about it but I can't help it.


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## tea olive

there's a thread called things i have done while nursing in talk amongst ourselves that i thin y'all might enjoy.


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## Mona

i just wanted to give a quick hello and








i'll read through all the posts now and hopefully have something good to say.
:LOL


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## EnviroBecca

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees baby-food this way! I like Elzabet's point about essentially having to introduce the same food twice.


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## tea olive

i never did the baby food. my first opportunity i was ready with a garlic press and i had a child that wanted no solids until he was over 18 months, and then had the texture issue.

one sorta continuum thing i'd like to share because it makes life easier: allowing my kids to learn to spit and avoid choking. i learned this from observing a friend, the one who first suggested me the book. the first times i hung around her one year old daughter she would hold a few marbles or dice in her mouth for the fun of it that she would spit out and show me invariably. so i never looked back on worrying about little objects and choking. i remember having to "wean" my 2y at the time, and watch him calmly starting with larger grape size objects to small pellets and "wean" myself from worrying about it. but it has been a nonissue with my other two kids, in that i forget it is something parents worry about that i don't have to supervise or consider anymore.


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## Mona

I've enjoyed reading this thread a lot!

I have a couple questions for you more seasoned mamas.









I have to admit that I try not to be child centered, but my dd (almost 17 mo old) prefers it that way :LOL, so i am trying to figure out ways to encourage her independence while being there for her at the same time.

Since it has gotten warm out, dd wants to be outside all of the time. For the most part, i don't have a problem with this. Once we are outside, she wants me near her almost all the time. So i can't read for too long, do qi gong, or just sit and relax w/o her coming up to me, and grabbing my hand to join her. I feel torn about this- i want to be there with her, in her moment. but, as you can imagine, it gets a bit tiresome for me to do this all day long. today i brought a container of rocks out to the garden with us, so she could play with them while i did some harvesting. that worked pretty well for awhile. any other ideas? i'd like her to use her imagination, to find things to do/keep her busy while we are outside. maybe this will just come with time?

another issue we have, that is related, is that if we are inside, but she wants to go outside, she will pull at my hand (or my housemates hands). and if we do not comply she has a melt down. most of the time i try to honor her requests. but there are times when i need to eat, for example, that i do not want to give it. especially if we have just come in from being outside. sometimes i can distract her with something, and sometimes telling her that i need to do x, y or z before we go out will work, but other times she just throws herself down on the floor and cries. i know some would say this is normal, and that there is nothing wrong with this. but it honestly breaks my heart.

so do i "give in" every time, or just try to be as gentle and compassionate with her while she is upset, while having my boundries and sticking to them?

Thanks in advance!!








lisa


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## purplegirl

OMG. Your children are gorgeous. I especially love the photo of you and your girl babe in the sling! I can't wait to be a mommy!! Thanks for sharing.
Lisa


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## mraven721

OK I sdmit I haven't read it yet. But the discussion is interesting. I have this book on my to read list, just haven't got there yet.

So, what I am getting, is the basic message is trust your children?


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## Persephone

I hope no one minds if I join you. I don't have children yet, but a lot of the CC stuff rings true to me. And casia, I do have to agree, your children are beautiful, and I can truly see the richness in your life.









Mona, I think that in the situations you don't want to acquiese to your child are the times when you say "No, mommy is doing this. After I'm done, I'll go out with you." Or something like that. In my relationship with my fiance, I try to strike a compromise, so that the outcome is agreeable to the both of us. I think it's the same way with your children. I think that's very CC. (Of course, I've only seen the website, haven't gotten my hands on the book yet.) She may throw a fit at first, but after a while she'll understand that she needs to work within the boundaries of the family. I think in that way, you aren't being child centered. YKWIM?


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## tea olive

i'm glad y'all are enjoying the fotos. i looked at all of them recently and wish i could change them around a little since they were originally for the family to look at. like i had a great picture of ruby's placenta, and some great ones of the kids looking ugly. i guess maybe you don't need to see those after all!

sometimes i think and believe and tell people that my kids are beautiful because....they are so darn hard to take care of. the way i parent definitely lets their personalities shine through, whether it is at my expense or not.

monalisa, i'm having the same kinds of situations with ruby. it is partially their age, they have just come to really know that they are their own person. and they are at the very beginning of a road towards learning impulse control. at this stage it is in the end easier to do what you can to accomodate them so that they are tractable when they are older. i know that sounds not so continuum, but that is the world we live in and as far as they know it is a breach of the bond of love with them when you refuse. it just depends on your microcosm. like my ruby will play outside by herself because she has two brothers in and out as well. though it is too darned hot and the bugs are incessant......anyway i remind myself that when they can really talk, it gets even more complicated. so i gotta enjoy this willful girl as much as i can. and it will help if you have a rhythm with the going outside so that she can see it does cease for certain reasons. like a kitchen timer that dings after thirty minutes?, and a certain ritual time you go outside? i dunno, maybe it's time for a garden.

another thing is that you have to really feel firm about something to get the message across to them. they are keenly aware of our every subtle signals. i think that is more important than consistency.

gotta run


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## Mona

only have a sec, but wanted to thank all you who replied to my questions...
things have been going ok the last couple days. if i am unable to go outside at the time she wants, i redirect her and give her some attention so that she does not feel like i 'm ignoring her, which is feel is important. i also initiate outdoor time so that she doesn't always have to ask, yk?

gotta run...


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## EnviroBecca

Quote:

So, what I am getting, is the basic message is trust your children?
Trust your children, trust yourself, trust your partner. Trust that all of you are by nature given the basic instincts you need to survive and thrive. Don't overthink, don't listen to "civilized" ideas, just relax and let life show you how to live it.


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## mraven721

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca*
Trust your children, trust yourself, trust your partner. Trust that all of you are by nature given the basic instincts you need to survive and thrive. Don't overthink, don't listen to "civilized" ideas, just relax and let life show you how to live it.










Sounds like what we (my family) already do! But I may read the book anyway. Sometimes I am guilty of overthinking!


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## Brisen

So, what do y'all think about toys? This came up now and again on the listserv CC list. I would love to get rid of most of our toys. I have 2 garbage bags full ready to go to the consignment store, but I still feel like I left a lot. I try to keep things that are like tools for them to use. They really need to have stuff to work with and manipulate. But, I don't like the clutter.

What toys do you find valuable? What tools do you have for your kids to use?


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## tea olive

my kids are happiest with raw materials. water, sand, paper to shred, rubber bands, glue. blankets and sheets, string, tape. ruby is like amelie, she wants the tactile of my dry goods. so lately i've had loose rice and lentils amok in my house. they love to play with ice.
they also love to destroy and whack things. they collect sticks and make anything i have into weapons to carry. everything is a stick whether it be a chopstick or straw or pencil or toothbrush. so i can never find those things when i need them. we like musical instruments, and i find the real instruments not much more expensive than the toy versions. my kids have all played harmonica since they were babies. we bought seven big exercise balls recently that they like. i have very active children, very primal warrior type people, probably why i've been so keen on the continuum ideas. they work for me too since the contrived toys lack imagination, though when i was a kid i had better coordination so i did alot of crafts learning origami and scuh. lately reed has been making "experiments" which means putting stuff in a plastic bottle like toilet paper and herbs and water and mud. he'll ask me for powders, like baking soda or cornstarch or flour. i'm about to save up for a big pile of sand.

but then, i have the kids that will choose a mud puddle over any toy. they lack the ability to sit still, hate to play alone, and not until recently with baby girl, the fine motor skills for typical modern toys.


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## Mona

wow casina- as usual that was a very helpful post! how do you store all the grains, beans, ect to taht they don't get all over the house? and does ruby try to eat them? i think that might be one of my concerns- dry rice and beans in the tummy=ouch!

i recently put the majority of her toys in a drawer to see what her reaction would be. guess what? didn't even know they were gone.









i left out the wooden toys, which are her fav anyway. blocks and wooden pegs and books are the favorites around here. she likes to "sort" so i'm thinking of brining in a bunch of rocks, cleaning them up, and leaving them for "inside rocks" :LOL

i'd like to hear what everyone's dc's fav toy is, just out of curiosity. and casina, waht is ruby's fav toy?


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## Brisen

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mona*
i'd like to hear what everyone's dc's fav toy is, just out of curiosity.

My kids play with lego a lot, and also with a wooden train set (cheap-o version of Brio, Brio compatible... I think Tumble Tree woods? Made by, oh, the company name is the same as one of those gentleman's mags... Maxim? I recommend it to anyone who wants a wooden train set, soooo much cheaper!). They like kitchen stuff -- containers, can openers, manual egg beaters, ice cream scoops, spoons, etc. Of course, stuff they can dig with in the summer. I think the Ikea toys we just put up are going to become a favourite.... we just put up a rope ladder and a hanging seat in the basement.

Ok, I know, that wasn't just one favourite toy, that's why I haven't bagged up as many of the toys as I thought I would!


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## tea olive

haha, it all gets all over the house. shredded pieces of toilet paper, glue and popsicle sticks, you name it. ruby is a really good spitter so i haven't had any problem with the eating. she won't eat anything that's not tasty.....

her favorite toy? by far it is two cups with some water. even better, with some ice. it makes us a little crazy sometimes and it keeps us from drinking much of any other beverages. i'm washing alot of mucky towels these days. and my cell phone my two littles have to talk to anyone that calls. fortunately not that often. she loves to dance to any music. dressing up is fun for her, and slathering on goo like massage oil. which is really new and weird since my boys never did it. oh, and she talks to my breast and plays with that of course.

the other day i got some blow up pools ( i now have three different sizes they are much cheaper than i expected ) and bought an electric pump and they've been in the water all day. it has got me making a small patio area with some free flagstones that we've had in a pile for years. so i got some pea gravel for that and they are loving the stuff....and yes, it gets in the pool.....

don't get me wrong, we have hundreds of books (we go to the library at least once a week) and have some little cars and action figures and legos that get thrown on the floor. my kids have access to computer and movies. last night i found some flash cards where clay had to tell me what the name of the picture was and he enjoyed it. but the raw materials, they are an absorbing and creative type of play that i find magical, that they actually get engrossed in (unless it is reed watching return of the king or mr. bean this week.....)

one time i was at a friend's home and what she does when her seven ds gets cross is she gives everyone a roll of toilet paper and they throw it around and unwind it all over the house. i was initially shocked by this but really, it is a cheap toy of endless fun. i have had to deal with our issues about waste, and even more about mess (more of dh's issue). i have a friend that for religious reasons will not let her kids play with food type items, but our kids are born in a world where materials come from a store, from family and friends, or someone else's garbage (yes, my kids climb in the magazine recycling dumpster....) and i'll have to wait for that lesson to happen, and just be happy that i'm not spending or promoting many expensive manufactured items that have only a few bells and whistles.


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## tea olive

oh, and the only toys i've ever needed in the "diaper" bag are a bag of balloons and a balloon pump, sometimes some rubberbands for holding the ballons, and strips of stickers. of course i'm totally out but they have worked for almost six years now.


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## Elzabet

Gabriel has a set of blocks his Nonno made, just plain wood cubes, no paint no numbers, no letters. He has a bunch of store bought ones too, painted. He loves them--they can be anything. I came in the room the other day and he grabbed me and pointed, "Treno, treno!" (train in Italian) he had put them all in a row and was pushing them across the floor.


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## EnviroBecca

(This is not meant to derail the toy discussion, just to give our tribe something additional to discuss.)

I attended a meeting last night, to plan a church fundraiser, and remembered how often as a child I went along w/my parents to similar meetings. Although we did occasionally have babysitters, that was only when they were going somewhere we couldn't, like a play they really wanted to see that would be totally boring to kids--but most of the time their taste in entertainment allowed us to come along. My parents had been involved in many community activities before we were born and didn't believe that parenthood was any reason to drop out of life in the outside world. If only one of them was going out on a given evening, both kids might stay home w/the other parent, but sometimes one of us would go anyway; if both were going out, both kids might go w/one parent or one w/each.

So, we grew up regularly attending meetings of computer clubs, feminist groups, a small-town Unitarian Fellowship (more like scholarly lectures than religious services), community improvement groups, writers' groups, organizers of the town's first domestic violence shelter, science lectures, and some parenting-related groups like LLL, school committees, and the gifted children's enrichment program. We would bring something to read or some paper and crayons or a few toys (later, homework), and sit in an out-of-the-way corner entertaining ourselves unless the meeting drew our attention. At the end, our parents would introduce us to their friends and encourage conversation. The ride or walk to and from the meeting was a time to talk w/our parents, who often would explain the meeting at our level and ask our opinions. While I can't say this was my favorite way to spend an evening, I enjoyed getting to go to different places and see what the adults were up to.

My dad was an early enthusiast of home computers, so he'd often volunteer to help somebody set up a new computer or troubleshoot a problem. I often went along on these visits to some random person's house, where I would usually be settled in a comfortable chair with a snack







or my dad's friend would suggest that I hang out w/his wife. I found it very interesting to see other people's homes (esp. because they weren't only people w/kids my age) and talk w/women who had different interests than my mom and often were doing interesting household tasks.

Sometimes there would be other kids at the meeting or computer-owner's house, often pretty different in age and interests from me. It was always interesting (if not ALWAYS in a good way...) to be thrown together like that and try to think of something to do or talk about. The local schools/culture mostly discouraged kids from hanging out w/anyone who wasn't exactly the same age and sex, so it was a rare opportunity.

But mostly, my brother and I were the only kids brought along to meetings. Many of the people involved in these groups had adult children or no children; those who were parents left the kids w/the other parent or a babysitter or a friend. It's the same at most of the meetings I attend as an adult--people who have kids usually don't bring them.

A lot of people are telling me that when I have my baby, I won't "have time" for community involvement; as a WOHM, I'll have to cease all other activities and non-parenting interests, or I will "never see" my kid. Seems to me that in my family of origin, kids attended parents' activities about as many hours as parents attended kids' activities, and we got to know each other better because of it.

What do you think?


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## tea olive

i think that is wonderful that you had such an experience. i do bring the kids with me to places and find that people are usually more accomodating than you might think, and that the kids can understand how to adopt the behaviour of the environment. that is one of my main parenting methods, that my kids behave as others in a different place or follow the rules of where they are. my dh is more hesitant however, and it takes a certain amount of energy from me since mine are little. it is always good to know that i can leave if i need when i find something worth trying.
however, i am not able to drop my guard as i would like, since where i live most people are still happier with children that sit still and do not talk. and here it is not okay for me to take my kids into a bar to see my dh play in his band, even if the show is at earlier. and my kids are very sensitive to a vibe of a place and of people, so i never know exactly how their behaviour will be.


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## root*children

CASINA~ woah! that totally freaked me out when I saw your kids' names... check out mine :LOL

We are totally into the CC. I read it when DS#1 was newborn and since have lent it out, never to be seen again. I do wish I had it so I could refresh my reading of it. Sorry, but I don't remember what was said about homosexuality. Could someone refresh me?
We were alot better about always holding baby with DS1, but with DS2, I tend to put him down more b/c... well... I don't know, he just seems to want to explore more than DS1 did. We've always tended to shock onlookers by the things we let our kids handle. (scissors, knives, tools) Not like I'm letting them play with razor blades, or anything. But I can't even begin to count the number or people who have thought they were saving the day by ripping the scissors out of my babies/children's hands. I've always felt they can just be trusted, and the bonus to it is that they always learn how to use those things sooner than most kids!


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## tea olive

interesting to know about the suzanne arms site. i like the good karma flags.

my dh's late grandmother, maw maw I, told me after clay was born, that there were some brothers she knew as a kid that were named reed and clay. i've also had a friend from arkansas in her thirties tell me she knew some brothers named reed and clay. it's a funny thing, my feeling about those names are entwined with these two specific personalities. what are their full names? we've got reed laurence williams, and clay henry williams.

tired.


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## root*children

Ours are Clay Elijah and Reed Joseph. We've only met a handful of Clay's and know one Reed (well, Reid actually) who is DH's age. Your kids are cuties! My family just got a kick out of seeing those brothers with the same names! I love those names b/c they're so simple and natural and meaningful...

sorry, OT!


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## EnviroBecca

I finally thought of something to say about toys.







(My own kid hasn't been born yet, so I don't know what its favorite toy is!)

Some of my favorite toys growing up were "junk" that my parents passed on to us, often from dad's job as an electrical engineer. Some examples:

*An audio mixer, which was not connected to anything; it was just a big black thing covered in knobs w/mysterious labels and little metal-lined holes. We called it the Spaceship Control Panel. We'd get some chopsticks or paintbrushes that fit into the holes, tie them together w/yarn, and plug them into various holes while setting the knobs to various settings and traveling around the universe!

*A huge supply of computer punchcards. These were our family's scrap paper for phone messages, etc., for many years, but my brother and I found several other uses: Circle the numbers and letters printed on the card to spell out messages. Put a card w/many holes over another piece of paper and color thru holes to make a design. See how many cards you can find w/the same slot punched in each one, line them up, and thread a string thru the hole. Staple cards together and draw on the blank side to make flip-books.

*A pad of checks from a closed account. Great for playing Store!

*Empty spools from sewing thread. We decorated them to make little characters.

*The cardboard box from a refrigerator. We weren't the ones who got a new fridge; my dad brought home the box from somebody else's. It was a tunnel to crawl thru, a phone booth for changing into Superman, a Tardis for traveling thru time....

*Damaged disks from a giant computer. These had two useful parts: an enormous magnet w/several holes in it, and an outer case easily opened w/screwdriver. We could put a magnet on the carpet (FAR AWAY FROM THE COMPUTER!!!) and use smaller magnets to scoot it around or build towers of metal objects on it. We threaded pipe cleaners thru the holes in some magnets to make handles so we could get them off the fridge, and used them to hold up things like an entire year's worth of spelling tests.







We used the cases mainly to wrap holiday gifts so that it was impossible to guess what they were.









Each of these things was a frequently-used toy for at least a year. Anybody else have "junk" reborn as cool toys?


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## Mona

wow- great ideas EnviroBecca!

my neighbor gave us some small plastic troughs that were to be used at the animal shelter but they had too many so she gave them to me. we use them for water, dirt, ect. she loves to play in them. we also use old plant pots outside to play with.

can't think of anything good off the top of my head.

but i did put most of her toys out of sight (but accessible if she really wanted them). she hasn't missed any of those toys. the room is much more clutter free.









gotta run....


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## tea olive

yes, any kind of cardboard box! i never have enough.


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## Persephone

I remember the absolute fun of a cardboard box. I also had old formals turn dressup clothes. My baby brother had an old headset from an airplane (dad was a pilot) that he used to pretend he was a pilot with. I have to ask my dad what he used to play with as a kid.... I know he had a cool makeshift space shuttle/airplane. I also used scraps of cloth to make beds for my dolls.


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## Brisen

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca*
a Tardis for traveling thru time....


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## HotMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mona*
wow casina- as usual that was a very helpful post! how do you store all the grains, beans, ect to taht they don't get all over the house? and does ruby try to eat them? i think that might be one of my concerns- dry rice and beans in the tummy=ouch!

i'd like to hear what everyone's dc's fav toy is, just out of curiosity.

We aim to be as CC as we can in our fractured culture.

My experience with eating beans and dry noodles is that she naturally limits herself...they get boring after a while. She loves to play with larger beans, rolling them around in her mouth. Funny, I do the same thing with frozen cherries and blueberries! BTW - Breastfed babies have better gag reflexes than bottle fed kiddos, and if a child is allowed to have things in their mouth, they are better able to maintain that gag reflex.
Sarah's favorite "toy" is whatever it is folks around her are working with. I find the toys just end up in a pile somewhere (usually where I end up tripping on them) and I just keep making the pile smaller. We have a basket of sticks, a basket of dress-up clothes and silks, balls, sewing supplies (measuring tape and stringing beads, the begining of her sewing basket), high quality white and black drawing paper and black and white conté crayons/chalk, and lots of books, some homemade with Sarah. Oh yeah, she also has some stuffed animals and a few hand made babies.


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## Persephone

Is anyone interested in keeping this alive? I've finally gotten to read the book, and found it resonates STRONGLY within me. I really like the ideas presented, and would love to hear more of how you all incorporate this into your daily lives. And I'd love to be able to ask questions, if you all are willing to answer them.

I'm not completely through the book yet, I'm about halfway through.

One thing I noticed I already had tendencies towards what the idea of giving children real, working tools sized to fit them. I don't want a plastic broom or hammer that wouldn't really work, but something that they can actually use to help out with.

I'm really happy about this book so far and look forward to incorporating these ideas when I have kids.


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## tea olive

i'm still here.......
what's funny about real tools is that many of the real things are not any more expensive than the fake things. the trick is that when i see the real thing i tend to want it handled "appropriately" and seeing food wasted or other "real" materials used in a kid's type play i get really weird. it is a control issue i am working to change.


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## Periwinkle

I totally agree, but don't think it's a control issue so much I guess. For example, wasting food (throwing, play cooking, etc) is not acceptable for us, as we see it as "disrespectful of nature's bounty" (someone else used that phrase on MDC and I thought it was perfect) as well as disrespectful of the hard work and $$ dh and I put into buying, storing, preparing, and serving it. I think as a result, our kids have had very few, very limited bouts with food throwing or food mashing, etc etc (handled in a very GD way) - but they never learned to view food as a toy. I am also not someone who views playing with food (e.g., at the highchair) as being an absolutely necessary developmental phase like a lot of people do. Hogwash. They get plenty of sensorimotor development from playing with play dough, in the sandbox, in the mud, in the baby pool... - they don't need to waste our food to learn about gravity, textures, pouring, etc!!

So.. I definitely do encourage my kids to stand up on a chair at the counter and "help cook" but they're actually helping me prepare a meal, not playing with the food or wasting it in any way. Does that make sense? Unless I'm totally misunderstanding what you meant I just thought I'd chime in and say I agree with you 100% but don't see it as necessarily changeworthy!









As for tools, I also don't "believe" (for lack of a better word) in giving kids certain adult tools and letting them learn that they PLAY with them as opposed to use them. For example, my kids LOVE LOVE LOVE loading and unloading the dishwasher. So I have them help with things they can do, like loading in their plastic dishes or unloading smaller things. (In fact, they unload glassware too and have never dropped any, but usually I try to have them stick to lighter things.) But they're not playing in/with the dishwasher, they are actually helping. Or, when I'm vacuuming and they want a turn. I let them push it /pull it around as best they can, but show them how to use it, not letting them, for example, climb on the canister and play with the attachments or bang on it or anything. No, they don't do a terrific job







but they are doing as good a job as I could expect them to, and they don't treat the vacuum like a toy.

So I guess to make a long story short, I would generally tend not to buy, for example, a play plastic vaccum or a play cleaning mop/brush set or a fake toolbelt -- I think it totally takes away from their natural curiousity to help out doing REAL adult chores and activities and turns what could be a great learning experience into "just another toy" they'll ignore within a few weeks.

[Edited to add: The one thing (perhaps the only one) that they do have is a little wooden play kitchen from Magic Cabin (just a stand-alone cooktop actually) and wooden play food. They adore it, and it was an absolute necessity before they could stand up by themselves on chairs at the counter, for me to be able to cook a meal without two little ones tugging on my legs! Plus, the wooden food is so darn cute, I can't possibly resist.







]

Anyway, great thread. In all honesty, I think it's nearly impossible to be completely CC in a modern urban/suburban life with zero support from other family members (e.g., in assisting with childcare), but I have taken some great things from that book -- the two biggest things that come to mind are what I wrote about above (children learning adult chores and respect for adult things) and also an element of trusting their instinct/balance not to fall off the bed or down the stairs or off a jungle gym. Knock wood, they have NEVER done such a thing, and I do attribute that to a great extent to the fact that I don't swoop in and "rescue" them everytime they're near the edge of the bed or climbing up a ladder on their playset. And I try very hard not to constantly say "Be careful!" or "Watch out or you'll fall!" thought I admit that's hard for me, because of 31 years of conditioning! So I wouldn't say we're bona fide CC'ers, but have taken a lot from that book.


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## shrinkmama

Let me start by saying that I'm new to MDC. I had never heard of continuum concept until just today. I clicked on the website mentioned and read the tenets of the concept. I already do all of that and had no idea it was a "concept". It's what felt right. We did hold our son a lot in the early months and he was co-sleeper from the get-go. We tended to his needs and I really believe that babies cry for a reason and it's important to find out what they need and take care of it right away. My son hated the sling and the baby bjorn so there was a lot of carrying around by hand or just sitting with him in our laps or lying on the couch or bed together. I didn't get much done the first few months. Once he was crawling he would hang out where I was or my husband was. He explored on his own while I cleaned or cooked, but I interacted a lot.

I really believe you can take your kids just about anywhere. We did the whole Lewis and Clark Trail when he was 6 months in utero. We already knew is name and made him part of the journal of our trip. I often wonder if this gave him his love of adventure. Now we take our son just about everywhere. He has seen and done so much and he really loves to spend time with us.

I find it very interesting that this is an actual "concept". Like I said, it just seems like the natural thing to do.


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## Persephone

shrinkmama welcome! I encourage you to read the book by Jean Leidoff. There are a lot of things in the book that she doesn't have on the site. And it all makes so much more sense in the context of the book. I agree though, a lot of the things in the book I feel were very natural to me to do, and I'm just realizing it now. But of course, that's the whole point. That this is the way we are naturally expected (by ourselves) to be.

When I say giving kids tools scaled to their size, that's exactly what I"m talking about. Real tools for kids. So they can help if they so desire. She talks about assuming kids are naturally social creatures. So, if they show an interest, it's a genuine interest to help, not to mess things up. So, if my two year old is tugging on me saying mom, I want to help! Then I give her the bowl and spoon and let her stir while I do something else. And if she gets bored after a minute and leaves, then I take the bowl back and continue. I'm not talking about giving "play" food, just the opposite. There was an example in the book about a two year old girl who was watching the other women grate something, and she picked up a piece and tried to do it too, so they gave her a grater her own size and a piece, and she did it for a minute before running off. So, if my child wants to help sweep the floor or whatever, then I want to give her a broom her size that's not a toy, and have her help. I know I've seen stuff like that before, but it's few and far between.


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## MamaAllNatural

Great post Periwinkle!


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## MisfitMama

Hello,

I never check this section of MDC - but I am happy that I did today. I am an avid CC-er. I wish that we could have our own subforum. . .

I am on the listserv (previously mentioned) on the CC website, but it would be great to have an ongoing thing here for people who don't want to deal with the mail volume and/or to share information with a wider audience and/or to just be able to read some more user-friendly posts.

I have been incorporating TCC into my life since I read the book when ds was 2 mo. old, with quite a bit of success. Here in MN we also have a local group that tries to meet about once a month.

As far as an update of the book - Jean Liedloff actually has a commentary on Amazon.com reviews that she is trying to get them to take out the homosexuality passage but has no control. As far as it being outdated - well, that happens to books. As far as her just "being a white girl with no kids" or whatever - I should ask on the listserv, but my understanding is that she spent quite a bit of time studying other work before coming to her conclusions. The most important ideas in the book are supported by the work of people like John Bowlby and James W. Prescott (off the top of my head.) Oh, and Joseph Chilton Pearce, too.

Anyway - my ds is 14 mo. and the worst part of being in this culture, for me, (okay, besides car seats) has been trying to find activities that I can do with ds that do not require me to stare at him, hover over him, or constantly apologize to other parents (GRRRR.) It is all *so* difficult without a tribe.

As far as kids sleeping better without a sling - I think they sleep longer and deeper that way - but who are we to say that that is "better"? I carried ds through all of his naps until he crawled at 8.5 mo. Now that he is "sleeping better" - in the bed - for 2-3 hours at a time, I've been having a lot more problems coping with life. He actually sleeps *too* deeply this way and has "nap terrors" anyway. I might as well still sling him for all of his naps though he's 14 mo. and weighs 25 pounds. Sometimes I still do.

Thanks for starting this thread! I almost cried when I saw that someone had.

MisfitMama


----------



## MamaAllNatural

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MisfitMama*
Anyway - my ds is 14 mo. and the worst part of being in this culture, for me, (okay, besides car seats)

OMG, I couldn't agree more wrt carseats. Of course I use them because we have to now that we have cars and roads but...I hate them. All of my babies screamed in them.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *MisfitMama*
has been trying to find activities that I can do with ds that do not require me to stare at him, hover over him, or constantly apologize to other parents (GRRRR.)

I'd highly recommend having a couple of more kids. :LOL







: Sorry, I couldn't help it.







Seriously though I always have things to be doing. I generally just have had the baby in the sling while I'm cooking, cleaning, doing dishes, doing laundry, running errands or tending to my older two. This pretty much takes up all of my time. Now he's older and enjoys spending time exploring so he doesn't need to be in the sling quite as much but I still just go about my business and then when he needs me he comes and hops in the sling. He pays so much attention to what I'm doing and I can tell he's learning. He already says "hot" and hold his hand up (like stop) because he's frequently on my back when I'm cooking.

Maybe you could try to go and visit w/people more so your entire focus isn't on him. Also going out to explore and take walks and hikes in nature is good. Maybe some of the other mamas will have more ideas.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *MisfitMama*
As far as kids sleeping better without a sling - I think they sleep longer and deeper that way - but who are we to say that that is "better"?

Great point. I'd say w/all the SIDS info we've proven how dangerous it is for young babies to sleep by themselves.


----------



## MisfitMama

MamaAllNatural,

Did you read TCC before your *first* child? I can't remember what you said. I'd love to have another baby. . . later! Are you trying to say that it gets easier with each one? I fear that it will only get more difficult.

I do try to get out every day, and I have a makeshift "tribe," etc.. But every so often I make the mistake of not having plans for the day. . .

My ds won't go on my back in the house anymore - he hasn't put up with that since 5 mo. (he has to see and touch everything, so he thinks.) So that is what has been so hard.

I sure do wish he had some older cousins running around the house or something, though. *sigh*

MisfitMama


----------



## MamaAllNatural

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MisfitMama*
MamaAllNatural,
Did you read TCC before your *first* child? I can't remember what you said.

Unfortunately no.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *MisfitMama*
I'd love to have another baby. . . later! Are you trying to say that it gets easier with each one? I fear that it will only get more difficult.

Um no, I didn't mean it gets easier w/each one.







: Sorry. I just meant you'd have plenty to do w/a couple more kids. :LOL

I'm sorry more of the mamas didn't reply to your questions. I'm afraid I wasn't helpful enough.


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## tea olive

it is not physically easier to have a lot of little ones. but it is easier to have a mini village and know my place as a mamma and get closer to continuum parenting.

misfit mama, perhaps, and i'm guessing here, you need to see mammas with older kids. only my ruby has been okay with some same age play.

okay, too much yelling over there, gotta go but i'm around!


----------



## MisfitMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *casina*
misfit mama, perhaps, and i'm guessing here, you need to see mammas with older kids. only my ruby has been okay with some same age play.

No, you're right. Most of my friends that I've met since having ds have kids about the same age. It's so much easier when he's with older kids - he just sits and stares at them.

I am so sick of playgrounds, though! I feel so oppressed by them.










MisfitMama


----------



## MamaAllNatural

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MisfitMama*
It's so much easier when he's with older kids









Definately! This is one of the reasons we're unschooling. Kids weren't meant to be put into groups of same aged peers.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MisfitMama*
I am so sick of playgrounds, though! I feel so oppressed by them.

Would you explain this a little more? Do you mean things like people freaking out if you let your child climb up the slide or play in a tree?


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## tea olive

i find the whole playdate thing contrived. though necessary to check people out. i've better off with a weekly habit. my kids too. my best find was my local homeschooling group. mammas at home, much wisdom and tolerance and love for the little ones. remember cruising the parks just to find people i could stand.....i still think knowing any kind of neighbors is a good thing. though i have had little luck with that (one of my neighbors is a daycare of crying children, and a few doors down across the street is section 8 housing)

and i don't think you have to have "plans" or get out everyday. of course it depends on you and your child's personalities.

i still have times where i'm slinging my over 25lb 10 month old for most of the day. it is less now though i would venture that if she did not have her brothers to catch up with, i would be holding her much more.

haha, y'all would laugh at the things my kids have done at parks. enough for me to get yelled at.

i've been cross all day, sorry if the tone is my post seems worn....


----------



## MamaAllNatural

Quote:


Originally Posted by *casina*
haha, y'all would laugh at the things my kids have done at parks. enough for me to get yelled at.

Casina, I would love to hear the stories when you're up to telling them.









Sorry you've had a hard day. Mine was similar.


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## tea olive

my body is just run down and my husband's depression getting to me along with summer heat and pent up kids. it's an isolating kind of weather. i cracked a rib last week. everything feminine and digestive is weird. i ran a stop sign and dented a truck yesterday. i should have known things were bad when a few days ago i got up and opened my contacts case and these was only one. then last night i was so tired i hit my head and when i was ready to get my contacts out, for a minute i panicked that the case was empty. wow, i'm doing bad huh?!!!

well, there's the time clay obviously peed in the sand. he was a little over two and happenned to be bare butted. i got screamed from a distance for unsanitariness. ruby was a newborn and i offered a diaper to put on him and apologized for it bothering them. my boys readily carry sticks which also makes people nervous. fortunately that was when i knew my homeschool group was okay the first time i met them - after i explained to reed he had to leave his torch (stick with a ribbon) on the van, we walked up and all the kids had sticks and swords. anyway one time at homeschool park day, i guess he was four then he had a "bow and arrow" from the dollar store. i would not normally permit a "weapon" in regular public at the time. (and now do not bring any toys at all) this is an easily breakable piece of plastic with and elastic string, with an arrow which was a six inch piece of flexible plastic thinner than a straw with a suction cup on the end. well apparently he actually got it aloft, and it whizzed by a toddler in a swing and the mom wasn't part of our group and was already nervous about us. she walked over and proceeded to yell at reed. well my son doesn't react well to that kind of thing. unfortunately for some people including my mom i have not taught my children to obey and respect all adults no matter what and if you assume he is not trying his best then he will not listen to you. so what he did was he shot the arrow at the mom. this is when she grabbed his arm and brought him over to me and proceeded to yell at me in the midst of friends. all i could say was, i'm sorry you are upset about what happenned. and took the toy so it wouldn't happen again. she was in a stink that i did not make reed apologize and left soon after. after that my friends said they just wanted to shoot fake arrows at her too.

actually both incidents happenned the same day and really shook me up though i'm glad i did not punish my kids even though the pressure was large. it did make me really think about how i should react next time, and i did feel ashamed that there was bad feelings toward the banner waving sling nursing unschooling continuum goddess persona i want to exude. i'm a bit obvious with my shaved head. considered growing my hair out to be less obvious and didn't leave the house for two weeks.


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## morsan

Hello everyone.
It's great to see a CC-thread on mothering, since the CC listserve is way overwhelming to me. We've just moved to a new area, which we absolutley adore, lots of alternative- and community minded people. Not particularly CC, but somewhere near it. We live in the country and happen to live next door to a super nice family. There are two girls, 7 and 2 1/2. Ds is roughly the same age as the younger one but much less verbal than his girl friend. I think they like each other a lot, but his friend is kind of "mean" to ds when we're at their house. She often says "Kaelon can't have..., Kaelon can't do..." and so on. She always follows through with her little commands, and often times she's quite physical with him. And he with her of course. Her mom told me that she'll often talk about inviting Kaelon over "because she likes being mean to him". She'll say "remember when I shut Kaelon into my room? That was a lot of fun." She's a great kid, very sharp, and very hard-headed. Her older sister is somewhat the opposite. I notice that the younger one easily gets frustrated with things that she can't do, or can't have when the sisters play together.
We're trying to be patient with her, but a lot of times I don't know how to respond to her. It can be very frustrating. I usually ask her why Kaelon can't do this or have that, with the intent of allowing her feelings to be fully expressed rather than fuss with her and say "don't be silly, of course he can". But so far, there hasn't been much improvement and I'm getting less patient. Any insight?

Josefina.


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## myrrhmaid

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MISFITMAMA*
He actually sleeps *too* deeply this way and has "nap terrors" anyway.

nak
if you are into homeopathy, you might want to look into aconite for him. it helped me with night terrors.

i hear ya gals on the tribe/village stuff. we are grateful -the new town we just moved to this spring is in the process of forming a families for natural living group for us to celebrate our wonderful and unique parenting styles.


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## Persephone

What's this list everyone is talking about? I dont mind a lot of mail, and I want to learn everything I can about implementing this into my life.


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## tea olive

josefina, i would venture that the girl is wired that way. of course she is expressing control over her environment, especially at seven. girls are still a new mystery to me, very different from boys imo. the statements themselves are the aggravating thing to me and the actual words are learned probably from the parents. if she said, i don't want to share, then it wouldn't bother me as much as the "can't" stuff. but that is beyond your control. does kaelon mind? how he reacts is what should concern you, and what can possibly make it better for all. if he is dissatisfied with some situations but is still wanting to play with her then perhaps you can give him phrases to say or actions you find appropriate, or at least let him know to come find you if he is not cool with the current situation. in the end, either they will work it out or y'all can take a break and try later. he does not have to play with her or obey her and it can still be friendly.

i'm thinking about joining the listserv again since i finally know how to divide my inbox. but i got mad at a bunch of people before for being judgmental.....i love the beliefs, but one cannot just live by one book, and we have a very different society.

persephone, http://www.continuum-concept.org/
and join the network i think?


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## IdentityCrisisMama

checking in...must read the thread...Hi!


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## MamaAllNatural

Hi ICM!


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## IdentityCrisisMama

Thanks for the Welcome and this thread!

So, I'm going to read the thread and respond as I go.

I didn't hear about the Continuum Concept until DC was about a year old but I (still) use a sling extensively, co-sleep and I'm a 'naturally' non-hovering type anyway. I started to consciously put the come of the CC ideas into my parenting when we were struggling with the transition into toddlerhood. At this time, switching to a 'family centered' rather than 'child centered' focus was really, really helpful. From there, I drew some confidence in some of the things that felt right to me - like involving the child in household work rather than playing "child's games", for instance - from CC.

About the hovering, I think that hovering actually sets this energy where you expect the child to fall, which can make the child fall. Sometimes I have to take a deep breath and shift my expectations to more positive ones. I do, however, draw a big line between things that can permanently damage or kill my child. They are rare, yes, but I choose a more "convention" type discipline with these few things - Oh, not corporal punishment or anything - GD! Another thing that I think is so important is to question our fears - or the fears of the people around us. SO many things that people freak out about aren't even remotely seriously dangerous. Cracks me up!

About the community aspect, we do make an effort to set something up. I have a close friend and we do "work" together rather than doing park playgroups and stuff. Not that there's anything wrong with that but I don't think they give the same impression to kids about the community. We gather at our homes, cook, and, most importantly, co-parent. I also encourage DC to interact with the people in our community. We go the same small neighborhood shops and DC has gotten to know quite a few people around here. I don't interfere much with how DC interacts with these people - I leave it up to them.

I'm really glad that the toys issue was brought up. It's really something that we need to cut back on. I'm a shopper (especially second hand) so I find toys all the time. It's starting to really bug me especially because I know that toys aren't what DC needs to play. We did just find a harmonica! What I would like for my child is that she cherishes some of her things (this is a personal desire because of my "issues") and I feel that having endless toys will make that really difficult. Not that we have an excess by most standards - just by mine, yk? Then I think I'll focus on "nicer" toys but that just means buying more. Thoughts? Oh, and what were your kids into at 3? DC seems like she could use a new activity. Store? And, are you playing some of these games or crafts with your children? How much interaction is too much for you with an activity?

I got to post 58 but I found it to be a good one and want to spend more time there - may have some questions. I'll be back.


----------



## Mona

just wanted to check in - i'm at mil's dial up, so can't stay on, but wanted to quickly say that i like the CC list. it has been helpful for me.

ok, gotta go.....


----------



## ComaWhite

I just got the book on Friday,
Knowing things around here, who knows when it will get finished.....

Is the list very busy? I cant really keep up with a lot of emails


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## tea olive

oops sorry, it is not quite joining the network. it is joining the forum. i just learned this from freecycle - you can make a new folder in your inbox, then using tools, make message rules so that all the messages from a certain place will be dumped there. that way it is seperate from you personal email and you can browse it when you want to.


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## Periwinkle

I personally found the list too hard to keep up with. It was usually the same few people contributing, and while I found some of the information and suggestions to be helpful, it was also very redundant without providing a format (like MDC) for easy viewing/filtering. I went to daily digest format for a while and finally am just no mail currently.

Now this is a completely personal note, but I also found the genral unwillingness of the group to discuss (respectfully, dispassionately) issues or counters raised to Leidloff and the book to be kind of annoying. Some people asked good honest questions that were just ignored or flamed away, like exactly what was Leidloff's experience before writing the book, or the homophobia in the book and how can that just change without changing the assumptions underlying it, or the one-sidedness of basing an understanding of the entire human continuum off of one tribe in Central America. It had that air of untouchability that I don't like, and I'm someone who loved the book and got a lot out of it. But the Yahoo list left me with a lot to be desired. Again, just my $.02.


----------



## morsan

thanks casina for your input. The problem is that Kaelon gets very physical with the other girl (the 2 year-old not the 7 year-old)when she tells him he can't do something. It's everything that he can't do or can't have. Like going out the door, like having blueberries etc. He will claw her face if she tries stopping him. And she will use physical force if he doesn't comply with her wishes. But yes, they still do like each other. Her mom also says that she isn't usually like this with other children. However there is one other child (which Kaelon is quite close to) almost exactly the same age as Kaelon that she treats somewhat similar.

andrea-when I was on the list it was very busy. Like 30 mails a day. And often you will see the same issues being discussed. However, there are some great people there with really insightful responses.

misfitmama-you mentioned that liedloff drew some conclusions based on pearce's work. Which books? I had no idea about this. How did you find that out?


----------



## MisfitMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *morsan*
misfitmama-you mentioned that liedloff drew some conclusions based on pearce's work. Which books? I had no idea about this. How did you find that out?

Hi!

What? Did I say this? I will have to take time to go back and look at all my PP's, if so. . . I think I would have said that her ideas are *backed up* by Joseph Chilton Pearce's - and what I mean is, they are in *agreement.* This is also true of James W. Prescott's work, and I am assuming it is also true of John Bowlby's, just to name a few.

Right now I'm working on a website more or less on the topic of the "accurateness" of TCC. I *just* started it, but if anyone is interested, I'll post the link as soon as I've got some more info on there. I am kind of a human development research fiend.

Those of you who dropped off the listserv, I'm interested in knowing how long you were on it. I've been on for over a year and feel that my experience has been almost wholly positive. I wonder if it's because I have really "gotten to know" the various posters? I don't know what I would have done without that list.

MisfitMama


----------



## Periwinkle

Hi MisfitMama - I probably got full mail version for 2-3 months, then digest for another 2-3 months after that before going No Mail.

I have to admit, I am not a big fan of distribution groups ("listservs") as I think the technology has left them in the dust, and I'm just used to a much more user-friendly view/search/read format that some of the boards (like MDC) use.

Now a CC board/forum... that's something I could get into and something I think would add a lot to the ability to discuss various topics without having to be online all the time to follow all the different conversation threads.

HTH!


----------



## tinaq

Hi Mamas,

I've been reading your posts for the past couple of days & really relating to & gleaning information from them. I haven't read Liedloff's book, but am familiar w/ the sight & some of the concepts. We have incorporated some of the concepts, but others are new to us. I have to admit I'm a hoverer (is that a word?). However, the idea of not hovering & the results make a lot of sense to me. I just have to break the habit. Do you think changing this habit when a child is already 3 would be effective?

I appreciate your insights especially @ a time when our 3 yo is going through a lot of transition (new sister, moving, being 3 yo







).

Casina, your pictures are beautiful. Our dd is a Mei, too, only a Mei-Lynn (I wanted Lin, but my dh- who's mom we derived the Lynn from- didn't wanted to change the spelling). We've been calling her MeiMei, too. And I can totally relate to this statement "remember cruising the parks just to find people i could stand.....," especially after moving to a new place & getting ds out of the house.









I look forward to your future posts. I think I'll go find Liedloff's book now. Thanks!

Christina


----------



## MisfitMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tinaq*
However, the idea of not hovering & the results make a lot of sense to me. I just have to break the habit. Do you think changing this habit when a child is already 3 would be effective?

Christina-

Definitely! I don't think it's ever too late to change your way of relating to a child. (Although, of course, the sooner the better).

John Holt discusses this a bit in his book _Teach Your Own_ in the chapter called "Living With Children". Also, if you get a newer copy of TCC (the one with the cool cover, anyway), she addresses this very issue in the foreward.

I have even tried TCC-ish "techniques" on fairly mainstream kids raised by friends, and with quite amazing results. . .

Good Luck~

MisfitMama


----------



## mamaley

the lovely misfit mama recommended this book to me on another thread, and i've been reading about it. i plan to get a copy tonight and i can't wait to read it. i wish their site was more thorough.

i was wondering if someone could give me a cliff note's version of what the author means by children are social beings vs. antisocial, (i'm assuming this means we need a village) and how this applies to everyday life and how it affects the child. i know it's a vague question, but i'm just really curious about this and want to learn more.


----------



## morsan

Well, I think the term basically just means that children are born with an innate desire to model their parents and their culture. Mainly it's in contrast to our current belief that if we don't force children (by coercion, ie schooling, inappropriate discipline etc) to cooperate they won't cooperate. Children are born wanting to cooperate, it's biological. I'm sure someone can dwell on this a little more, I'm a little short of time.

misfitmama- I was thinking that's what you were saying, that they both had arrived at the very similar conclusions. Sorry, I got confused. To me this gives more credibility to Liedloff's conclusions, since she gets a lot of heat from people (who may be very scientifically minded) who don't like that she takes one culture and assumes that this is how humans were supposed to live in order to be happy.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *morsan*
Mainly it's in contrast to our current belief that if we don't force children (by coercion, ie schooling, inappropriate discipline etc) to cooperate they won't cooperate. Children are born wanting to cooperate, it's biological.


----------



## MisfitMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *morsan*
To me this gives more credibility to Liedloff's conclusions, since she gets a lot of heat from people (who may be very scientifically minded) who don't like that she takes one culture and assumes that this is how humans were supposed to live in order to be happy.

Oh, it annoys me so much when people brush it off like that. That's a huge part of why I'm putting together a website. I have been collecting links that you might be interested in - about other cultures. I'll try to post them here ASAP, in case you would like to have them to refer to.

Interestingly, two of the most intelligent people I know are scientists, and both of them were *blown away* by The Continuum Concept. I think people who brush it off either don't understand it, or they are unable to reorganize their brains around it because it can certainly cause a nervous breakdown, and though I love forcing myself to have these, many people do not! (But *why*? It's so *exciting*!)

mamaley - so glad you joined us!







I just ran across a good, concise definition of "innate sociality" - I'll try to dig that up, too.

MisfitMama


----------



## MisfitMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MisfitMama*
I have been collecting links that you might be interested in - about other cultures. I'll try to post them here ASAP

Here's one of them:

http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC04/McElroy.htm

MisfitMama


----------



## tinaq

Thanks for the encouraging words MisfitMama. I just got the newer copy of The Continuum Concept today & you're right, it does have a beautiful cover on it. I'm very excited & motivated to read it.

Christina


----------



## Fianna

Hmmm. I've heard of this book, actually think I may have it in one of the many boxes of books around here, and now I must go find it!

Much of what I think I am hearing about CC from you all really resonates with me. I haven't checked out the official CC site and will try to do so.

I'm a big sling user (my youngest is a little over 2 and we use it all the time still); I'm not a hoverer--for instance we never used a baby gate for stairs, just showed them how to "bump" down before they could walk; I let my kids "help" all the time and they love to sweep, help me empty the dishwasher, etc.; we could throw out 90% of the toys in my house and my kids would be fine--they like scissors, paper, dolls they can pretend with...; every day we go outside and play in the little plastic pool--if they want to put dirt in it to see what happens, great. I let them experiment, get dirty, make messes--I try to say yes whenever possible. I let them ride their doll strollers down our sidewalk, try out scooters, climb trees, etc.

So am I doing CC stuff?


----------



## tinaq

We're on a temporary move here in CO from TX for 6 months. Space was tight on the move up here & I opted to pack one of those plastic tubs of toys for my ds w/ wooden blocks & train tracks. The really exciting part for me is that today is the first day he's actually opened the tub. He's been busying himself w/ playing w/ the dustpan, some headphones & controller (like he's flying an airplane) from dh's video game, and looking through books from the library. It just fully hits home that toys are not a necessity, their creativity & imagination are exercised so much more fully w/o them.

I have been actively trying to deprogram my hovering habit







I really tried it out this weekend while we went to the Butterfly Pavilion. Of course, he did just fine & things were much more relaxed, as a result.

Really enjoying the read.

Christina


----------



## kakies

There was a wonderful thread here on MDC about AP vs. TCC. I'm pretty sure you all will enjoy.

Here it is:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...tinuum+concept[/HTML]


----------



## kakies

We do a lot of CC, but when dd1 was 2.2yo we had dd2 and I suddenly had "trusting" issues with dd1 around her newborn sister. How did you handle this? It was terrible I know that I needed to trust her and she needed to feel trusted but I just couldn't do it.

Are there limits to that trust?


----------



## tea olive

theoretically, there are no boundaries on what you can trust your child with, allowing that you know their limits. when my 2nd was born, protecting him from his older brother was me exerting the discipline that he lacked, acting the mamma. but then, it could be considered that i was limiting him to begin with my fears. vibe and expectation are big factors. i have witnessed two close and trusting mothers: one allowing her 2 boy and 4 girl to pass a few times and hold the other's sleeping two week old newborn baby. this was while they were standing over a concrete pad at a park. everyone was clamhappy. i had to remember to breathe and feel good about it too. the other mammas scared by it decided to turn away.

our trust is our own issue, as most things about parenting are.


----------



## Fianna

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kakies*
There was a wonderful thread here on MDC about AP vs. TCC. I'm pretty sure you all will enjoy.

Here it is:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...tinuum+concept[/HTML]

Thanks for the link! That was a very informative discussion and gave me lots to think about.


----------



## MisfitMama

Kakies - yes, thanks for the link. Now here is the problem with THIS kind of forum - I don't discover threads until they are over.

I have to say that I'm not very pleased with the extent of the discussion on that thread. Is it too late to post on it? I don't know how that stuff works.

It seems like most of the posters haven't even read the book, and I shudder when people misunderstand CC and think it can be broken down into a list, like AP.

The deal is this: AP is BASED on the continuum concept (the concept, as well as the book). Dr. Sears coined the term "attachment parenting" after reading TCC. He probably also read Bowlby and that's where he came up with "attachment," I would assume. In any case, I do owe a lot to Dr. Sears - after all, I found TCC through AP. But, OTOH, he really mangled TCC. He watered it down, misunderstood it, and made it palatable to the mainstream and to right-wing Christians. I am happy that he made it more understandable (I can't *believe* how many people don't understand TCC even after reading it. . .) but TCC itself is not a theory, a philosophy, or a "list of ideals". It is a concept. It is the truth. And if you truly understand this truth, you don't need a list of ideals, because they will be obvious to you.

*sigh*. Sometimes I get so discouraged by all of this. Why is it so hard for our culture to grasp the concept? Is it really that hard to understand, or is it just that people don't *want* to know?

Does anyone even know what I'm talking about?

MisfitMama


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## Jenne

Hello all! Not a momma yet but I just finished reading TCC last night. Wow! I wish it had more ideas for how adults can "cure" their own lack of in-arms/co-sleeping phase. I have some questions about how I would apply the continuum concepts here in the States with a toddler/older child (the in-arms phase seems pretty simple to me)...(I am still reading the linked thread about TCC vs AP so forgive me if I am being redundant)

* I get Leidoff's idea that by saying "be careful" or "watch what you are doing" you are communicating something else entirely. But I can't figure out how to say things without the opposite being an underlying message. I found this part confusing because of her contradictatory examples (to me). I also understand about children being their own beings capable of making their own decisions and the importance of modeling what the expectation is....so how would you handle the following situations:

-staying in a yard that has no fence--if I say, "stay in the yard" isn't my underlying expecation that I think the child won't stay in the yard?
-sitting in a chair at the dinner table
-behaving around dogs
-aggressive playmates whose continuums are out of whack

Could I also get some opinions on the praise thing? I am really conflicted over this. Helping children to see the intrinsic as well as the extrinsic value of life, to me, is important. If a child does something for mom or dad shouldn't they be thanked and praised? Not like "you are good" but "thank you for carrying that for me, it was a big help." As adults we do things for reinforcement and like to be told good job every now and then. But is this because our continuums are out of whack?

One more thing...I have a variety of great memories from childhood from "cutting the lawn" with my Dad to the scavenger hunts or other "adventures" mom would take us on. Life was a mixture of chores and play but all with an air of fun. Do y'all feel that TCC would not encourage reading to children, playing with them, or planning special activities/adventures? What about going to the park or for a walk? Do you think these things are good for children or put their continuum out of whack? I was thinking that maybe the reason there seems to be little interaction among parent and child in TCC is because of the Yequana culture and not because it is unnatural.

I lied...here's anothe thought...what of redirection in TCC? Again is it not nescessary for the Yequana due to the culture but not harmful to the continuum? Also, Leidoff talked about parents scolding their children for soiling inside the hut but didn't really go into how this was done. Do you think it is a form of "This is NOT how we behave" and then the child is contrite and everything is over?

I have read several books on ADD/ADHD and, IMO and from what I have read, the reason Americans experience these at higher rates is genetic (can go into this later if needed). Therefore many people in the US are raising highly energetic/spirited kids how do y'all see TCC fitting in with this?

Okay...I'll stop for now...look forward to reading your replies!

Cool Breezes,

Jenne


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## tea olive

i know what you are talking about but lack the energy to digress or go further and post. i think posting on it is still timely.

i'm reading a book called the descent of the child by elaine morgan, anyone here read that?


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## MisfitMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jenne*
* I get Leidoff's idea that by saying "be careful" or "watch what you are doing" you are communicating something else entirely. But I can't figure out how to say things without the opposite being an underlying message. I found this part confusing because of her contradictatory examples (to me).

Jenne, Good point. As far as "stay in the yard"-type stuff - I guess a lot of it just has to do with tone. Think about how you would say it to your sibling or your partner, maybe? Like, "hey, stay in the yard." I guess a yard is a weird example. A better one might be "stay on the sand." (Like at a playground.) I think about how I would say that to my husband. I'd say, "Stay on the sand!" clearly expecting him to agree with me. But if I were afraid he wouldn't do it, I'd convey it by having a sort of hopeless or whiny tone, or by adding "okay?" at the end of the sentence.

I didn't really get this part either (and I still have to check myself) until at Christmas time I stepped back and listened to myself and my sisters in the kitchen making Christmas dinner. We are constantly saying, "hand me that spatula," "hey, stir the gravy, quick!" and "check the pies, will ya?" - and our tones conveyed that we *absolutely* expected compliance, which we always got. So now I try to talk to ds the same way. (I think you can add "please" with success, of course, as long as you really believe in the child's compliance.)

Quote:

-sitting in a chair at the dinner table
This one, I don't know. I guess in general you just believe that children are going to "get it." You have to believe that your child WANTS to do just as the adults. If he/she does not, it is most likely that he/she is not developmentally ready. (Why do we make kids sit in chairs so much in our culture?) You have to have the belief that the child wants to cooperate emblazoned in your brain. You have to totally drive out the idea of "child as manipulator" or "child as misbehaver" that our culture has forced upon us.

Quote:

-behaving around dogs
Hmmm. . . they will definitely model your behavior, but in the meantime. . . I don't know. I don't have a dog. Maybe someone else can answer that.

Quote:

-aggressive playmates whose continuums are out of whack
This is a *terrible* problem in our culture. I have no idea how to handle it. Every situation requires a different approach, I guess. I am dealing with this right now. My ds has a relative and a friend who pinch and bite him like crazy. (HARD). Despite my best efforts, I cannot get to him every time before it happens. Do I cut myself off from my family? Quit seeing my friend? I struggle with this so much. The worst part is that people actually say to me all the time, "When is he going to start hitting back?" Like there is something wrong with HIM!!! So far, he reacts just like the Yequana - like a tree branch has hit him, and he's so surprised. But I can't count on this when he's being tortured all the time. He also gets pushed down and pummelled at coffee shops. (I quit going to those, though.) Grrrr.

Quote:

Could I also get some opinions on the praise thing? I am really conflicted over this. Helping children to see the intrinsic as well as the extrinsic value of life, to me, is important. If a child does something for mom or dad shouldn't they be thanked and praised? Not like "you are good" but "thank you for carrying that for me, it was a big help." As adults we do things for reinforcement and like to be told good job every now and then. But is this because our continuums are out of whack?
Have you read the article on the Alfie Kohn website? http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/gj.htm Also, his book _Punished By Rewards_, is incredible!

I think there is a huge distinction between saying to your partner, "thanks for taking out the trash!" and "Good job! You took out the trash!" The latter is condescending and implies that you are shocked that s/he took out the trash! Children pick up on this, I'm sure, and realize that when they do something for which they are lavishly praised, they are actually doing something un-expected.

Quote:

Do y'all feel that TCC would not encourage reading to children, playing with them, or planning special activities/adventures? What about going to the park or for a walk? Do you think these things are good for children or put their continuum out of whack? I was thinking that maybe the reason there seems to be little interaction among parent and child in TCC is because of the Yequana culture and not because it is unnatural.
I agree. When you are home all day alone with a child (if you are), it seems cruel not to play with them, if they have no other playmates. And we are so isolated, that unfortunately us SAHMs have to go to the park to get social interaction sometimes. I think this is just the way it is for a lot of us. But I don't think it's because we aren't Yequana - I think that, for instance, farm life (ha, ha, like there are many family farms anymore!) works just as well as tribal life - there is always something to do, and work and play are very much intertwined. Also, in tribal societies, the older children and fathers and grandparents take time out to play with the baby.

Quote:

Also, Leidoff talked about parents scolding their children for soiling inside the hut but didn't really go into how this was done. Do you think it is a form of "This is NOT how we behave" and then the child is contrite and everything is over?
This is another thing I've been wondering about because we are doing Elimination Communication and I need some clearer examples. I just keep thinking, when I was in Guatemala, when the kids or animals did anything "wrong," the adults would make a loud "SHHHHHHHHHHT!" sound and wave them out. I'm guessing this something like what the Yequana do - it's sort of an offhand reaction that does not require any words (except maybe muttering) and very little time. ??

Quote:

I have read several books on ADD/ADHD and, IMO and from what I have read, the reason Americans experience these at higher rates is genetic (can go into this later if needed). Therefore many people in the US are raising highly energetic/spirited kids how do y'all see TCC fitting in with this?
Hmmm. . . well, it's OT, but my understanding of ADD/ADHD from the reading *I've* done is quite different, unless you're talking about Thom Hartmann's (sp?) definition of "genetic"? Anyway, I have a *very* "HN"/"spirited" child. What exactly is your question? IME, doing things according to the continuum has been an incredible experience. I think that most people with a child like mine would have had to disconnect with him, due to stress/lack of understanding. But I am closer to him than ever. We are *so* connected and we have an amazing relationship. I can't imagine what he'd be like if I hadn't read TCC. It scares me to think!

Hope that helps!

MisfitMama


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## EnviroBecca

Misfit Mama, I do know what you mean! It seems like a lot of people who read TCC take it very literally in its specifics and complain that it isn't MORE specific. They are expecting a manual with exact step-by-step instructions on how to raise children. IMO, this expectation springs from classifying it as "a parenting book" when really, it is a book about how to live. I feel like a lot of people miss The Concept altogether.


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## Persephone

Wow, so much info to digest since I've been here last! (I've been on my honeymoon for the past week.) Which leads me to comment on something that someone else said above (Sorry to be so vague.) We went camping on our honeymoon, and brought a hammock. I lay in it one day, and had an urge to rock. So, I got my dh's staff (from the renfest!) and used it to rock myself in the hammock. Then I thought about TCC, and how the urge to rock may have come from an interupted in arms phase, and how nice it was to sit in the hammock, and let it swing me, and the sensations it caused in my head, and throughout my whole body. I let myself swing until I had my fill, and I felt much calmer afterwards. I think that's one way we may be able to complete the in arms phase. I don't think I completed mine that day, but if I had several days/weeks/months of that, maybe I could. As for everything else, I have thoughts too, but I have to let them sit for a while first. Be back.


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## tea olive

the specifics on tcc is what the email list is for. and still there are many interpretations.

sorry, i have hitting kids and i have done the best i can. i finally no longer believe it is completely my fault after six years. some kids are are more physical externally than others. sometimes they mean no harm.

verbalizations i have worked on and still keep on trucking. the book easy to love difficult to discipline helped me define the words. like taking out the trash, i think i would prefer : i'm glad that trash is out and looking at my dp as i said it. there are nuances ranging where one can own the accomplishment and how others can tarnish it.

the direct phrases are important. questions lead to the receiver thinking that there are options to ponder. they will either do it or not, and i agree that we have to believe that we are all doing our best especially in reference to our kids. either they are able or not. once you make an issue, then it gets messy. the please words and manners words bred into us are confusing. they do not always mean what we say. i'm also weeding out the negative phrases. like saying "don't do that" and being specific in saying and showing what to do.

actually i have found talking with my kids to be overrated and sometimes complicates things. i'm a big talker so i'm finally learning to hold and streamline my tongue!


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## MisfitMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *casina*
the specifics on tcc is what the email list is for. and still there are many interpretations.

Casina - not sure what you're referring to here, but if it's in reference to *my* PP, then I have to disagree - as far as the concept *itself*, there is only one interpretation - but as far as the rest of the book, I agree with you. (If that is even what you are saying?)

Quote:

sorry, i have hitting kids and i have done the best i can. i finally no longer believe it is completely my fault after six years. some kids are are more physical externally than others. sometimes they mean no harm.
I don't know if I mentioned the book _Your Competent Child_ by Jesper Juul - there is some amazing insight in that book that might be helpful to you in this case. My ds is not old enough for me to be able to say anything conclusive about hitting or biting. . . but I think there is a *huge* difference between siblings hitting *each other* and having a child that you can't take out in public because s/he bites and hits children at random! In the cases I was talking about, these children definitely mean no harm - they are not even 18 months old. But it's really hard on everyone, nevertheless.

MisfitMama


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## tea olive

misfitmama, your perspective seems very intact, as well as your confidence as a mamma. i loved reading your post.
i just meant that interpretations of using the concept in this society definitely vary. everyone imagines a slightly different thing.

i'll look into the book. i'm wary of random books in the library since sometimes they are toxic for me but i love recommendations. no, my kids don't hit or bite strangers in public. how odd. that sounds like a serious cry for attention. but hitting is definitely a behaviour that has been exacerbated by reactions, that i'm just glad to know that as their impulse control grows up it goes away.


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## MamaAllNatural

Hi Mamas!









I haven't had much time to be on the computer lately. I hope it's alright if I just pop in real quickly w/a question.









I let my kids climb trees all the time. I even encourage it. I think it's natural, fun and good for them (physically, mentally etc.) I had a two acre apple orchard I grew up on and all of my silbings and I spent most of our days climbing trees. Children in trees has always been perfectly normal to me. Apparenlty, this is not so for most parents though.

I am getting really horrible reactions from people every day WRT my children climbing trees. Especially my 6 yo ds is really into it. He loves it. He's good at it. Every time though someone sees him, a neighbor, a random parent at the park etc. they comment, "Careful!" "Don't break your arm!" or they say to me, "Did you know he's way up in that tree!?" I could go on and on. It's really starting to bother me. I don't want to justify it to every single person. What's the big deal w/climbing trees? I don't see how it's any more dangerous than most play structures at the park.









Have any of you dealt w/this? Any input/advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.


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## tea olive

hey mamma!
i've got the tree climbers. most notably i have photos of reed naked, in a tree at least six feet off the ground, spying on the daycare next door. who were of course absolutely horrified. generally we are horrified at each other and it is better for me to find it amusing except for the pitiful crying babies. do you need to formulate a press statement? sometimes if i have a certain thing i say everytime i don't have to think about it and it ends the discussion.
childhood has really changed, cc or not. some of us when we were kids we could roam around on a bike after a certain age. i don't see this allowed except for the poorest of people in my town. who are criticized for allowing such a behaviour but at least their kids have some sort of independence.


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## mamaley

i've just started reading this book and so far it's very interesting. i have a question about something i read in the introduction, she says (and i don't have it with me so i can't quote it) something like that women shouldn't stay at home with their children because they become bored and are boring people. what does she think should be the alternative? and i'm assuming this is a critique of our society not letting women take their children to work, and of our society having families (women) being so isolated and tribeless? is this right?


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## tea olive

you're right. we should be able to work with our kids. gasp. the sound of a child crying shouldn't be a big deal. actually i know of a few instances where a mamma has brought her baby or children to work. generally they were small businesses but never planned, it just turned out that the employers and fellow employees were okay with it. i know when i get cranking on my business from home it will be no big deal. and running a store or doing errands or such could be done with kids.


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## Persephone

That line is what gave me the freedom to start thinking about work again. I was so absorbed with thinking about kids and such, that I thought I couldn't have time to do anything else. But then I realized that we shouldn't be so focused on the kids all the time, so I started thinking about what I could do from home to occupy my days, so that I wouldn't be so focused on kids. I'm lucky, I have a couple years to start something before the kids come along, so I can have an established business by the time they get here. I have this vision of a home based business, with maybe a workshop/store attached to the house, so I can be "at work", and then run home if I need to (Since "home" would be just the other room, or next door!) And the kids would be allowed to move freely between them.


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## tea olive

the vision me and dh had before he hurt his back was to move somewhere seriously urban have run something like a deli and live in the floor or two above. that way my kids could run in and out and learn as well.


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## Jenne

Hey Mommas, sorry to post and run...I was unexpectedly called out of town as my Dad's mother passed away...

Thanks for the great replies







And ideas to ponder...

Here's some additional questions: Do any of you allow your children to play with dangerous implements like knives, matches, electrical sockets? Do you allow your children to be hit/pushed/hurt by older or other children without interfering?

I know several of you touched on the hitting thing. I agree there is a difference between siblings and kids in a playgroup. I guess for me it goes back to the unfortunate reality that there are many children whose continuums are out of whack due to the way they were parented as infants and I don't think I am personally comfortable not interfereing. What do y'all think?

Cool Breezes,

Jenne


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## MisfitMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jenne*
Do any of you allow your children to play with dangerous implements like knives, matches, electrical sockets?

I don't let ds play with electrical sockets - my rule of thumb is, "if it's likely to kill him, it's not allowed." As for knives - my ds is still too young, IMO, but some friends of ours started letting their kids cut with sharp knives at age 2 (with guidance at first.) . . . and they've never cut themselves. I've never thought about matches, although there are boxes of them all over and I've never thought to move them. Maybe I should.

Quote:

Do you allow your children to be hit/pushed/hurt by older or other children without interfering?
Is this in the book? Why do people keep telling me it is, but I don't remember that part at all. If anyone can tell me what page it's on, I'd love to know. It seems like the parents of kids who hit, pinch and bite remember this part of the book, but I don't.

Quote:

I know several of you touched on the hitting thing. I agree there is a difference between siblings and kids in a playgroup. I guess for me it goes back to the unfortunate reality that there are many children whose continuums are out of whack due to the way they were parented as infants
So, do you think this is the cause? What about kids that were "AP" parented? I can't find any good information of what the causes of this are. I'd **really** love to know what other people think, or have read.

MisfitMama


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## tea olive

my kids can put plugs in the sockets. some are childproofed so i don't have to monitor all of them. they are not allowed to poke them with anything else, even wave a crayon near them. it has taken little effort actually. and the fascination goes away.

i have some plastic lettuce knives they can use on soft things. this depends on my energy as well. my 2nd was very determined to use knives and cut himself because he was using a dull paring knife on a large carrot. not the right tool. depends on their motor skills and i have to feel very open. which is hit or miss, i was raised to stay out of the kitchen. my baby ruby has used a kinfe the most because she is skilled at finding them and likes the kitchen best. she also as a gentle touch and control that the boys don't have. still, it is rare, but i'm not opposed to it. but i know i have to be feeling positive and the knife has to be sharp and i assist them with what they have in that i at least provide them with what to cut.

my kids tend to destroy everything else before themselves. matches and lighters are too hard for them. they are very careful with fire in general though, candles and outside fires. i also have a gas stove so the fire is apparent. i do not bat the hands away from the flames, but make then get out of the kitchen if there is frying or opening oven door or sputtering grits. they are better with the obvious.

what is the question about hitting, exactly? i don't know if it is in the book specifically. i believe expressing ourselves physically is an animal behaviour which we work to civilize towards talking. some kids express themselves more externally than others. some kids are more frustrated than others. there are different levels of physical touch and in our adult western world touch means either love or violence or sex and very little inbetween. like my kids can be pushing each other and laughing and it is okay. i have specific instances i ask them to respect each other's bodies, but they are rough in general. maybe it is genetic. me and dh are rougher than some other people. (i remember that all the midwives i have encountered tend to be rough or extremely gentle) after i had ruby and i was in the midst of nursing two i realized that i could, and it was okay to grab each of them by the arm and lift them since i have only two arms. it means nothing except practicality and they hold their body and arms a certain way to make this easy. but it horrifies some people.


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## MisfitMama

Casina,

*My* question about hitting is, does it say anywhere in the book that it's "continuum correct" (or whatever) to let kids duke it out?

I don't have my book right now - it's on loan as usual! But I've been told by a couple of TCC readers that my son needs to "learn to fight for himself" when he is attacked by another baby. But as I recall, JL says in the book that when the Yequana children are hit or whatever, they "act like a tree branch hit them."

So. . . either I'm nuts, or someone else is.

MisfitMama


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## tea olive

i don't remember any mention about fighting in the book, so you remember more.

i think if my family had an intact village where we knew our place in the world physically and economically and knew every child and everyone parented the same and had no hang ups etcetera et cetera there would be possibly no hitting.

we live in a much stressful and weird life now. there are good points. there are bad points.

i don't know about your child "learning to fight". how is one supposed to develop skills for a few and far occurence not at home/in your village? i guess i'm wondering about the details.

allowing the kids to duke it out physically or verbally is something i have done but it requires total trust with the world and absolute confidence in the children. which i can do, and i'm working on increasing that percentage, but a week like this past one has seen very little of my enlightenment habit. then there's absolutely ignoring them which does work sometimes. my kids get along much better when i'm not in the midst of things. i don't think vying for mamma's attention is supposed to be a round the clock thing either, in the ideal continuum. but then i don't think the yequanas have rooms like in my own home where the loudness can get to me as well.

that's why the book is so celebrated, right? that we have so many fine point interpretations.
but my decisions concerning hitting are not just about tcc, though i'm sure it is an influence.


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## morsan

casina- That some children hit other children at random in public, isn't any more odd than any other "negative" behaviour. Ds did this last weekend when we went to Ashland, and sure it hurts and is very frustrating, but I don't think he's a freak. I don't agree that this sort of expression is a stronger cry for attention than other, more subtle behaviours. Ds had been taking in a lot of negative energy from another new friend of his and after a couple of weeks of that, he turned his built-up rage onto any other seeeminlgy "weaker" child. Part of the problem was also my reaction to his hitting other children.


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## MisfitMama

Morsan, how did you deal with him hitting - that you thought was the wrong reaction? I ask because I am trying to help a couple of people out. I know these two people whose toddlers are hitting/pinching, and none of us seem to be sure of the right "reaction." Maybe it depends on the kid, etc.

It seems to me that hitting, biting, etc. are just more likely in some kids - like some kids are maybe pre-disposed to fall into that, and you get the wrong ingredients, and that's their way of dealing with stress. Some other kids might choose a different way of dealing with it. I guess the good thing about hitting and biting and pinching is that the parents can be *sure* that something is going on. It's really unfortunate when children turn everything *inward* and act "good" under stress. . . then everyone can ignore the problem.

I have been thinking a lot about this, and I remembered that children in daycare are always found to be more aggressive, overall. So I am working on a theory that maybe to "cure" a "violent" child, one could give them a lot more body contact. What do you think? I was thinking that if my ds did that, I would think that it was due to stress, and I know that physical contact lowers stress. So I think I would try to wear him more (he's young enough to do that) and take walks with the backpack, and be conscious of giving him more affection and definitely co-sleep if I wasn't already. I would try this for like 14 days to see if it changed anything. What do you all think? Am I nuts? I also read somewhere that people who sleep in body contact with someone else have much lower rates of heart disease (and maybe cancer?)

MisfitMama


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## Periwinkle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jenne*
Do any of you allow your children to play with dangerous implements like knives, matches, electrical sockets?

I do not let my children play with anything so technologically advanced that they would have no continuum experience or instincts to use to help protect them. I consider electrical just about anything to be on that list, and matches just plain didn't exist until extremely recently after gunpowder was invented. Knives -- well, it depends. A giant serrated bread knife or a huge chef's knife... heck no. Why? Because *I* don't use those all the time. Let me explain -- how could I possibly expect my children to have some sort of contiuum understanding about giant knives when their own mother hardly uses them during the course of her day? A primitive tribe who has knives lying out all day long because they hunt, skin animals, make weapons and tools, cook, and protect themselves all day long with them is one thing, but sorry, I just don't have a machete in my family room, kwim?! I do let them try their hand at smaller paring knives (e.g., to help ME cut an apple) and the dinner knives we use they try out too, but neither could do serious damage, and it's always under direct supervision for now. I use a very common-sense approach to my use of CC I guess. Like how in the heck would a child have any instinct about putting a fork into an electrical outlet? Electricity wasn't common in homes until less than 100 years ago. Now I will say, when it comes to teaching them about not doing something like that, that I am very matter-of-fact about what they can't do. "No touching cords" for example said very seriously (not meanly, just seriously). And I behave like I expect them to comply. I did the same with these poisonous berries that are all around our house -- "These berries are NOT for eating... no eating berries... yuck..." -- and they have never even brought one to their mouth.

My $.02...









Quote:

Do you allow your children to be hit/pushed/hurt by older or other children without interfering?
Absolutely not. If another child is not socialized (and/or wired) to be social with my kids, I will not tolerate my children being hurt. I don't see how that is CC. If some child from another tribe wandered into the Yequana and started pummeling their kids, I doubt they'd sit back, kwim? They'd be horrified as am I when someone on the playground is aggressive with dd or ds (or for that matter, when dd or ds try out biting or hitting each other). I don't see the difference between a child biting my kid or a dog biting my kid... both require immediate intervention IMO.

This is true whether it is siblings or playgroups... harming another person is the ultimate in unacceptable behaviour in my book, regardless as to who's doing it, and dh and I take immediate (and gentle) strides to intervene on our child's behalf, as I said, even if the "offender" is their sibling (which happens rarely these days, but they did go through a biting phase around 18 months when they were teething bad). I do just want to point out that I'm talking about real harm here, not just "not being nice".


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## MisfitMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
I don't see the difference between a child biting my kid or a dog biting my kid... both require immediate intervention IMO.

Oh, Good analogy! I'll have to remember that.

Quote:

but they did go through a biting phase around 18 months when they were teething bad).
What kind of biting phase, do you mind telling me? Did they bite really hard? Did it continue for a long time? Did they bite a lot of different people? I'm just wondering if there is hope for our situation, or if this is a problem behavior I should worry about. It's been going on for about 4 months, I think.

MisfitMama


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## MamaAllNatural

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
I do not let my children play with anything so technologically advanced that they would have no continuum experience or instincts to use to help protect them. I consider electrical just about anything to be on that list, and matches just plain didn't exist until extremely recently after gunpowder was invented...Like how in the heck would a child have any instinct about putting a fork into an electrical outlet?

ITA







This is how I view everything and why I am drawn to TCC. As my user name suggests, I tend to parent in whatever way seems as natural as possible. "New" technology is very unnatural to me. The same holds true with parking lots and the street. I am very careful with my kids around roads. Huge metal machines going 80 mph is definately not something natural in my book.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
I will not tolerate my children being hurt. I don't see how that is CC... harming another person is the ultimate in unacceptable behaviour in my book

Once again, ITA!







My instincts are: child being hurt, protect them. Mama bear does not sit aside while her cubs are being attacked.

Good stuff Periwinkle.









Also, I see your new sig. Congratulations on #3! How exciting!


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## Periwinkle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MisfitMama*
What kind of biting phase, do you mind telling me? Did they bite really hard? Did it continue for a long time? Did they bite a lot of different people? I'm just wondering if there is hope for our situation, or if this is a problem behavior I should worry about. It's been going on for about 4 months, I think.

Oh I don't mind at all.







Around 18 months -- for my dd and ds this is when they were talking but not really able to fully express themselves well with words (e.g., they didn't start sentences until ~21 mos.) and this frustrated them a lot -- they would get a) excited (as in, while playing "chase" around the table) or b) frustrated, and just bite whichever body part was closest. They were also teething badly which I think made things worse. Usually just nips, but there was some broken skin in there a few times.







Only once or twice did they try to bite me and never my dh (darn husbands). Never anyone else. But it was a real problem for them obviously and compounded by the fact that they're the same age -- it was hard for me to figure out how to discipline one without neglecting the comfort needs of the other. For example, my instict was to rush over and scoop up the hurt one out of harm's way and comfort him or her, but then quite frankly the other one just kind of went on with their play like nothing was wrong and by the time their brother or sister had stopped crying, it felt weird for me to have a talk with them about the behavior much less scold them in any way, because they were kind of like "Gee ma, what did I do?" by that point, kwim? I have always insticually let natural consequences be a good way of disciplining my kids, and NO I definitely do NOT mean any book or whatever about this, just plain common sense: you throw your food, you get down from the table to pick it up before continuing to eat (not fun); you bang on the window with a hammer, mama takes away the hammer (again, not fun); etc. I actually have no idea if this is CC or what the CC way of disciplining is, but for me, it makes the most sense for their to be a natural and appropriate consequence for any kind of harmful or negative behavior. But my dilemma was, what is the consequence for hitting or biting? An immediate, easily understood consequence? And how could I ensure they understood that without not responding to the one who was bitten? So... and please don't flame me if this sounds just terrible... I figured that being anti-social (biting) means you no longer can enjoy the privledge of being with people until you're ready not to bite. I honestly hate the idea of time out, but for anti-social behavior it actually makes sense to me because it is NOT an arbitrary punishment... in this case, it is a logical extension of doing something mean to someone. So let's say dd bit ds. I would take dd immediately into the other room (next to ours) and say "No biting. You may not be around us when you bite." and then rush back to comfort ds. They actually would usually sit there (in the kitchen, no toys around) for a minute which was enough time for me to comfort the other one. Then I would go back to the biter and say something like, "You may not hit your brother/sister. No hiting. Mama and ___ are going to play and when you're ready to come in and play nicely, you can." They actually got it, and would come in and sit down to play veeery nicely and IMO appropriately slightly chastened. Occasionally the biter would be so ramped up they would not sit in the kitchen for a moment and so I would put them in their booster seat.

Anyway, within a short amount of time, they definitely "got" that biting was NOT okay. And we noticed a fairly steady (if somewhat less rapid then we'd have liked) decrease in the behavior. I guess by the time they were around 22 months it had gone away completely.

So this was our problem and our strategy, warts and all!

I'd LOVE to hear how other moms who try to CC (either whole or in part) handle this. Always looking for good ideas!!!


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## EnviroBecca

About tree climbing: I think it is a fine thing to do! What I would say to concerned strangers is something like, "He has a lot of practice and is very careful." Try to use a calm, certain tone instead of sounding defensive or impatient (difficult as that is when you hear the same worries all the time!).

About kids roaming around alone: I think modern parents have become absurdly restrictive of this kind of thing, to their kids' detriment. Most places are just not that dangerous, esp. for a kid who's been taught safety skills. IMO, the best way to teach these skills is by modeling What We Do, as opposed to taking full responsibility for everyone's safety and expecting the kids to blunder along needing constant guarding. Then open up the kid's range of self-supervised activity gradually as he/she demonstrates the ability to handle it.

One of the things I love about my neighborhood is that kids do go around my themselves: I've seen kids as young as 3 playing unattended in the front yard (if you stop and talk to them, a parent will come out to see what's up, so there is someone keeping an eye on them), kids as young as 7 walking or bike-riding around or going to the playground in pairs, kids as young as 10 going around alone and running errands (like buying milk), and kids as young as 12 supervising a whole gaggle of younger kids (including infants) on walks and trips to the playground. My neighborhood has a lot of Orthodox Jews, and they in particular seem to give their kids a lot of freedom and responsibility at a young age, but they're not the only ones.

About Liedloff's comments on SAHMs: I think she's talking mostly about the phenomenon of a woman isolated w/her (relatively few) kids and house full of modern conveniences, such that she really does not have enough "work" to satisfy her needs and is encouraged to over-focus on the kids, to everyone's detriment. The more "continuum" alternative would be some combination of home-based work, kids going to work w/their parents (fathers too!), and tribe members sharing child care.

Another great thing about my neighborhood







is lots of independent small businesses. Many of them have kids hanging out in their parents' workplace: sitting at the back table of the restaurant doing homework, playing on the floor behind the counter, carefully coloring the signs for the displays, setting the tables, etc. My favorite is the newsstand run by a hardworking Pakistani couple whose son, about 4, is always standing by the register to chirp, "Thank you! Have a nice day!" and occasionally you see him happily arranging the display window.


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## Persephone

So, I've been thinking about some things lately.

First off, I've been thinking about the comment by Periwinkle that technological things like cars and such aren't part of the continuum instinct, because they're modern inventions, so kids need extra guidance with them. And I was thinking that the consciousness that Leidoff is referring to is an innate instinct of self preservation. How is an unguarded swimming pool any different from a deep pit? And how are cars different from wild animals? Both are dangerous and unpredictable. And I do use knives every day. I cook, and I use them to chop vegetables. I don't leave them laying around, but they have their place, and a curious child would have access to them here. It makes me wonder how much I want to child proof my home when I have kids.

The second thing I was thinking about was that this past week I went to the Children's Museum with my best friend and her 3 year old daughter. She was hovering a bit more than I was comfortable with, but I didn't say anything because she's not mine. There was an area where the kids were free to roam and play... well, the whole place is like that, but this spot was a bit more interactive. And I saw a lot of kids being too rough, and falling and hurting themselves, and crying for their parents, who were either hovering or nowhere to be seen. I don't think either situation is a good thing. It just disturbed me. I couldn't find an example of the continuum anywhere. And I was trying to decide what I would do if I had a child with me. What would you do in a situation like that? I guess it's not very different from the playground. Would you follow your child, at a distance? Or would you find a spot where your child knew where you were and plant yourself, so that your child could come back if they needed you? Does it depend on the age? What if someone pushes your child, and they fall down? I'm just very disturbed by all this, and I don't know what to think.


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## Periwinkle

Quote:

How is an unguarded swimming pool any different from a deep pit?
IMO, it isn't. I don't consider a swimming pool, which is no different than a pond, deep puddle, watering hole, or any other body of water people have been around for millennia, to be the kind of modern invention I personally was referring to.

We just got back from 10 days in the Poconos, surrounded on 3 sides by a lake. We have NO water near where we live, aside from the kiddie pool and bathtub I suppose, and they've never even been in a swimming pool so I admit to being a little freaked about the lake and all the docks just dropping off into deep water. They ran around on the dock (supervised of course -- I'm not THAT CC!







) and carefully avoided the edges without so much as a single word from me or dh on the subject. They actually got down on their bellies - a position I have never seen them assume EVER - and crept near the edge of the dock to peer into the water. Then they'd push up onto hands and knees and slowly edge away from the side. I must admit dh and I were really kind of floored, some modern part of me half expected them to run right off the end like some retriever fetching a stick!

Quote:

How are cars different from wild animals?
Well, a car IS like a full-grown, charging rhinocerous, true!







But I'd love to see the Yequana let their 2 year-old play in the path of a charging rhino. No way! A lion prowling around camp would likely result in babies being scooped up and shuttled into shelter, no? Am I way off on this? If so, I think I'm really missing something because nowhere have I read that being CC means assuming your 20 pound child can fend of a wild beast!









Quote:

And I do use knives every day. I cook, and I use them to chop vegetables.
Oh I didn't mean to say anything bad about knives in general, and hope it didn't sound that way, just the ones I don't use often or around dd or ds. Like a giant meat cleaver or axe or something. I never use them, we don't split firewood, I don't skin cattle in my backyard with a long sharp blade, I don't use a scythe to harvest crops, geez I don't even filet my own fish!







I use paring knives, basically. And I *do* let dd and ds use these to help me cut up, for example, an apple. I guess what I meant is that the Yequana (and others) left big knives lying around because they used them all the time and the children were intimately familiar with how they were used. I think saying a modern family can leave an axe lying on the living room floor when a child has never been around sharp knives is misreading CC. I hope that makes sense.

Quote:

The second thing I was thinking about was that this past week I went to the Children's Museum ...and I saw a lot of kids being too rough, and falling and hurting themselves, and crying for their parents, who were either hovering or nowhere to be seen. I don't think either situation is a good thing. It just disturbed me. I couldn't find an example of the continuum anywhere. And I was trying to decide what I would do if I had a child with me. What would you do in a situation like that?
Hmmm... that's a hard call. I guess I tend not to hover unless I see iminent danger for my children, like a child who is clearly out of control or hitting other kids or something. There's nothing CC about letting your young child be pummelled. I often vary my behavior at the playground depending on who's around and how others are behaving. Unfortunately I don't live in a CC tribe, so I have the reality that other kids will be aggressive or lack coordination on playground equipment my dd and ds would otherwise be perfectly safe on, either way putting my kids at risk where they wouldn't normally be.







To me, this issue is the most, for lack of a better word, annoying thing to me about trying to be at least somewhat CC in modern times, i.e., the impact of other people's kids (or adults for that matter) on my ability to parent the way I want to.

Interesting stuff. I'm looking forward to reading others' responses, e.g., on the speeding cars (aka rhinos!) issue.


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## kakies

I have been thinking of ways to become more CC with my girls. I would like your comments on bed rails, safety vests for swimming, padded floor mats for babies, sippy cups, bowls w/ suction cups underneath (I hate these), plastic covers for coffee table edges, toilet bowl locks. Are any of these things necessary. Oh, and what do you think about a baby getting wet in the rain, a toddler jumping on the bed or climbing onto wobbly furniture ?


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## Periwinkle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kakies*
I have been thinking of ways to become more CC with my girls. I would like your comments on bed rails, safety vests for swimming, padded floor mats for babies, sippy cups, bowls w/ suction cups underneath (I hate these), plastic covers for coffee table edges, toilet bowl locks. Are any of these things necessary. Oh, and what do you think about a baby getting wet in the rain, a toddler jumping on the bed or climbing onto wobbly furniture ?


*Bed rails:* No. Dd and ds never fall out of beds. (Knock wood.) And I wouldn't put them way up high on a bed anyway because I think that is not very CC - in other words, a bed low-ish to the ground is what most people are used to anyway.

*Safety vests for swimming:* It depends. When we go out on a motor boat I do make everyone wear life vests because accidents happen - someone could run you over in your boat. We were seatbelts too and I see no difference between seatbelts and life preservers. BUT... dd and ds do NOT wear swimmies or other flotation devices when playing or "swimming" in water. I think it's important for them to learn how their bodies act in water - for now, obviously we help support them, but as we teach them to swim they will begin using more and more of their own power to stay afloat and less of mom or dad. I think teaching a child to swim by using a lot of artificial flotation can be counter-productive. Plus... none of the things available such as swimmies, inner-tube bathing suits, etc. is designed as a life saving device, e.g., a floatation swimsuit is just as likely to allow your child to be floating heads down in the water as heads up. In other words, people don't drown because they sink to the bottom of the pool or lake.

*Padded floor mats for babies:* No. Though I guess I'm not really sure what you mean. I put my babies in the grass, on the wood floor, basically wherever without any sort of padding.

*Sippy cups:* Heck yeah!







Sorry, beige carpet and grape juice just don't mix. If only we lived outside where spills were absorbed naturally by the earth! That being said, I have tried very early on to teach dd and ds to use a cup and they are pretty good at it. But only when they're sitting at the kitchen table or outside, otherwise it would go overwhere.









*Bowls w/ suction cups underneath:* Yup. We used those when dd and ds were in highchairs and just learning how to self-feed. Maybe if you only have one baby you can sit them on your knee and they can feed themselves from a bowl you hold steady in front of you, but it's not possible with twins. So I found the suction cups to be really helpful to keep their bowls stead to allow them to get a good scoop of whatever they were eating. As soon as they learned to steady the bowl with the other hand, we took the suction cups off. FWIW, I never used the suction cups to prevent food throwing or bowl flinging. A) it wouldn't work







and B) food throwing is something we actually take very seriously and wanted the opportunities to address the behavior not just mask it with suction bowls, splat mats, etc etc.

*Plastic covers for coffee table edges:* No.

*Toilet bowl locks:* Yes, but not for safety. For mischeviousness!!







Dd and ds went through this phase where they wanted to splash the water in the toilet and with two of them, I needed to know that I could be changing dd's diaper without worrying that ds was dunking his shoes into the toilet. You do what you gotta do...









*What do you think about a baby getting wet in the rain?* Love it. Couldn't live without it! If I had to keep two kids inside every time it rained I would go insane. As long as it's not a giant knockdown lightning storm or below 0, we head outside whenever possible. *I* am actually the one who wants to come inside before dd and ds do. They could care less.

*What do you think about a toddler jumping on the bed?* I don't let them jump on the bed, but not because it's not safe. I guess I'm kind of a "beds are for sleeping" person and if they want to jump, they can jump elsewhere without messing up the newly made beds.

*What do you think about a toddler climbing onto wobbly furniture?* It's never been a problem. They've never fallen off of a chair or table or whatever and hurt themselves. The only tumbles they take seem to be almost like mini-experiments... like, what happens if I lean too far back off the (low, with rug cushioning underneath) ottoman?! Wheeeeee! But never anything where they were actually falling accidentally or injured.

****
I look forward to reading everyone elses reponses too!


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## DancerMom

I am so glad I found this thread. I almost never check out FYT, and I have been wanting to talk to someone about TCC for a few weeks now. I just finished re-reading the book for the first time in two years. I read it shortly after my daughter was born, and really liked it. I had two close friends who had read it and were implementing the ideas into their lives (they have slightly older children), and so we have had many discussions about how to live this way in our culture. At the same time, over the past two years, I became a little blase about JL and the book, and so when I re-read it, I was taken aback by how much it really resonated with me. I got just as much out of my second reading as I did my first.

I moved cross country last December, and although we're settling in just fine, and have connected with some awesome people, I do not feel like I have a "tribe" anymore (as I did in the last place we lived) and I have watched my daughter (and myself) change some of her behaviors as a result. In addition, some of the people I've met who have kids are very un-CC, despite being ap, nfl, gd, etc. It's very frustrating for me to be around them while they hover and constantly "rescue" their kids, and interfere in the interactions between our kids. Plus, it interrupts the adult time, which is very important to me. I have begun suggesting the book to people, but not many seem interested. Also, I am hesitant to suggest it to certain people because I'm afraid they may be offended by parts of it (for instance, people who have had negative hospital births reading her interpretation of what babies in hospitals go through).

As far as our own parenting goes, we try to let our daughter explore her world on her terms, and be available to her when she needs us. So, for instance, I let her climb all over the play structure at the park as soon as she was interested (13 months?) and would stand nearby (but not on the equipment) for a few weeks, and then after that, continue to hang out on the blanket with the adults. She knew where I was if she needed me.

We did not do much childproofing (no plastic outlet plugs, baby gates, toilet locks, only locked cabinets with chemicals until we got them out of the house) but we didn't allow her to play with these things either. Outlets are probably the most dangerous, and we would just say, "This is not a toy." And then we'd show her what they were for by plugging something in, and tell her that it was a job for mamas and dadas. She never showed much interest in them, and I have never been concerned about her being around them. Really, it all comes down to expectations. I trust my child to keep herself safe and know her own boundaries.

Where this gets difficult is out of our bubble. The biggest thing I got from my recent reading of TCC was that our culture/society (in the US) is NOT a tribe. The reason life works so well for the Yequanas is that ALL adults have the same expectations of ALL the children. But when I go out in public with my child, even if I expect her to stay with me and stay safe, other people's energy and expectations are working against mine, and can affect her.

Here's an example. Last winter, we were at my BIL's house for the holidays, and the whole family was there. My daughter was navigating the stairs by herself. We were keeping a fairly close eye on her, because she'd never been around stairs before, but trusting her to be okay. Well, everyone else kept telling her "be careful" and "don't fall" and asking us if we knew she was on the stairs or if we were watching her (I guess we just looked like the world's laziest parents







) and of course, inevitably, she fell down the stairs. She was fine, and so we weren't really freaking out (more just annoyed with everyone else) but my BIL's wife was really upset and worried and got snippy with BIL (because just before the fall she had asked him if he was watching our daughter, and we said we were, but somehow she felt he was still responsible).

When it comes to aggressive behavior between kids, I have different ways of approaching it, depending on the situation. Obviously, random kids at the park are not a part of our community, and so yes, I have an obligation to protect my daughter. However, this has not been necessary, as most of the time other parents are hovering and immediately deal with their own children before I feel I need to. My daughter has one friend who was pushing her for a while. My inclination is to let them work it out unless she's asking for help (which occurs in different ways, sometimes she comes and tells me what's going on, and sometimes she screams and cries and looks at me). I feel like my job as a parent is to *be available* to my child, which doesn't mean interfering in her personal interactions unless she signals that she needs me to.

I think this post is long enough, so I will sign off. I have been thinking about this subject a LOT lately, and I am really happy to find this thread. Thanks to those of you who have been keeping it going!


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## tinaq

Hi Mamas,

I have a question regarding verbal interaction amongst children. I have a 3 yo. We recently moved to a new area & have not yet found like-minded parents for playdates & such. I agree w/ most that I've found & read about w/ Liedloff. I agree that for the most part we should allow children to have interaction w/o intervention on our part. I'm working on my "hovering." I've been taking my ds to local parks to get some outside time & interaction w/ other kiddos. He's drawn to older children & their play. However, sometimes the older children don't want to involve them w/ their play. Some will not say anything & I think hope he gets the hint if they ignore him. Others, will turn their backs on him & make comments to their fellow playmates. Still others will say things like, "Would you stop bothering us?" I understand that this is all developmental & I'm not asking how I should get them to change their minds & let him play w/ them. Rather, I wonder how much I should intervene if ds, say, doesn't get the "hint" & wants to continue to play. Should I redirect him to another activity or group of kiddos?

I guess, I have my own issues w/ hurt feelings on the playground & I might be projecting them on him, b/c he doesn't *seem* to have hurt feelings when they make comments or ignore him.

Just looking from some feedback. Thanks!

Tina


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## morsan

Misfitmama- In reply to your post way up on this page:
The reaction I had which I consider to be wrong was fretting too much about his hitting. We went to see another playmate and that day I was under a lot of stress (hoping that they would get along real bad because I was helping out his mom with her new baby). I got pretty angry with ds instead of doing what I usually do. Every time he hits someone I go up and tell him that it hurts and that's usually all. I'm not the one to let them work it out if the other child isn't on the same level. If someone is being hurt I really can't just stand by and look. He (and other kids) usually claws and it leaves nasty marks. It must be very painful.
As far as more physical contact, my ds does have lots of physical contact with us. he still sleeps with us, always has, I give him hugs and kisses quite often. But what's lacking, in my opinion, is playtime, and rough playtime. he loves that, and well I don't really. But I'm trying to learn to like it.
he always deals with conflicts by hitting the other child. many times he has very good intentions when approaching another child, but the other child won't allow him to be part of whatever is going on. I'd love it if ds found another way to deal with such frustrations. He easily is hurt by rejection, and if he can sense just a tiny amount of that in another child, he's likely to hit.


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## MisfitMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tinaq*
sometimes the older children don't want to involve them w/ their play. . . . Should I redirect him to another activity or group of kiddos?

Tina, my ds isn't old enough to understand what other kids are saying about him or even to him yet, but I think that if/when this happens to him, I'll either let him deal with it, or, if it seems that his feelings are hurt or something, I might pretend not to have heard what they said and just say something like, "Hey, let's go try out the swings" or something - just to cut it off before it gets ugly.

Then again, I didn't usually have playground issues as a child, so I guess I just expect things to roll off ds - after all, he is likable and can easily turn to another group of kids on his own. I guess that too much interference, or your giving off the vibe that he needs to be "rescued" could seep into his unconscious







and cause him to feel like there is something wrong with him. So, I take it back - I think I'd let my ds deal with it on his own unless he was crying or came to me for help.

MisfitMama


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## Caring Touch

:

I have *REALLY* enjoyed this thread. I recently went out and got the book and it is awesome. The ideas are so new to me and I am jazzed.

I wasn't raised with in-arms or with a tribe. So I am trying to apply the concepts but they are hard for me personally because they are not in my fiber. I don't want to pass that on to my daughter so I am trying to do the in-arms and continuum anyways but it is challenging for me. It makes my system unstable. Not too sure how to balance the two.

Anybody else doing the continuum when they were raised the opposite way? I was bottlefed, in day care at one month, slept in a crib in the other room, no tribe AT ALL, ect... so I am very comfortable now in my life being alone most of the time and to have an attached babe is very hard.

Any tips?

Thank you so much to all the mama's who've posted and introduced the book. It's been life altering. Makes me very repulsed by the way Westerners live. I am now feeling a deep need to change our whole living habitat. So sad to be so isloated without a village and to watch all these people struggle because they didn't get the in-arms phase and see myself in them. kwim?

Caring Touch


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## kakies

hello....is anybody here? HELLOO OO OO O? Were did everyone go? This was such a great thread.

Come on back here, I say... *please*


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## MamaAllNatural

I'm still here.







I'd love to get this thread going again.


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## MisfitMama

I'm still here, too.

I think people who don't know about this thread have started other threads about TCC, so it's chaos! Too bad we don't have our own little forum, so we can post about specific topics without them getting lost in the deluge. . .

MisfitMama


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## HotMama

I'm still here. I don't have much time to spend here anymore, but I do "hang out" on the TCC listserve.


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## JohnnysGirl

I'm reading it for the first time and LOVE it!


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## JohnnysGirl

sub'ing


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## Periwinkle

I'm still here.









I guess a topic to throw out there... getting older siblings ready for the arrival of a new baby!









How have you handled it?

I am currently doing things like:

* Making sure they walk a lot more than having to rely on a double stroller in a store plus a newborn in arms. (UGH!) They hold hands now, never run in street... can walk with me without running away. I want to be able to have them walk whereever pretty much.

* Getting their own snacks. Anyone else do this? It's such a little thing, but I've been letting them get an apple out of the fruit bowl or open the cupboard to get some crackers if they're hungry. I guess this falls under trying to get them a little more thinking about their own hunger and trying to satisfy it in little ways (e.g., if I'm nursing and dinner is delayed by 30 min... so they won't starve AND I can feed baby to his/her heart's content til I figure out the whole nursing in the sling thing.

Any other good ideas? Dd and ds are 2.5... will be 2 3/4 when dc #3 arrives, if that helps.


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## Persephone

I'm still here! We may be ttcing in in the next year, so I'm going to reread the book, and start applying the ideas. Other than that, I'm just lurking now.


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## yogabug

I've seen references to this before and was just wondering what it means. I like reading this thread too and definitely agree with the continuum concept idea.


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## yogabug

Sorry!


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## artymuminoz

I read TCC as part of my adult recovery from being abandoned as a baby. I spent 6 wks in hospital before my fab mum and dad adopted me. After losing my first hubby in an accident just after we married, I really began searching for answers!! I did rebirthing and loads of other stuff to work on me!! All of this has influenced MY parenting, attatchment etc, but whenI was unable to nurse (had to express as my ds has a severe tongue tie) suffered from terrible depression. I felt like a total failure!!! But he is 5, healthy, happy, reading, IQ score over 130, amazing with numbers, loves magic tricks and fart jokes!! I don't hover and working from home means he has access to me, and knows where I am, but he has the freedom to do what he wants.

Good luck with it everyone, but don't take it as gospel...kids are amazing!!!! They tend to ask for what they need!
Just one more thing, I sense a lot of judgement in many of these forums...for the most part, people are doing the best they can, and if we don't like their parenting style, or what they feed their kids, well we can choose to tell them and suggest changes, ignore it, or use our feelings about the situation to grow and change things about us!!


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## AmyMN

Hi, everyone,

Would you like to have a separate forum called "The Continuum Concept" on the Mothering Boards?

With a separate forum, each TCC topic could have it's own thread on the Mothering Boards.

There is a forum through _The Continuum Concept_ website, but Mothering boards are so much more user-friendly.

Cynthia from Mothering.com needs to get an idea about the different topics <to discuss surrounding TCC> so she can see the need for a separate forum.

Please post topic ideas. I'll compile and send them to Cynthia.

Thanks!
Amy


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## Persephone

Personally, I don't think that we're going to get a board if the SAHM's didn't get a board. Though I think it would be cool if we did.


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## Ellien C

I'm subscribed now. I didn't realize this was still going on:

So topics we would discuss, if we had a forum:
Safety
Setting limits
Communication
Child-centeredness
Toys
Relationships with our own families and our own continuum.
post-partum depression as a result of broken continuum
caring for elderly on our continuum
age-mates, school, dealing with artificial situations where everyone is same age.
visiting child-centered relatives
food, baby food, baby-centered items, feeding at various ages.
parent intervention when frustrated, when hitting occurs, when safety is an issue.
mouthing small items at various ages
water play, water safety
trusting children
children fulfilling our expectations
stairs, climbing on furniture
use of the stove, fires
using scissors, pins, needles, sewing supplies (ask me about my little Wednesday Adams)
sword play, stick play, bows and arrows, made-up weapons.
mowing the lawn
restoring our own continuums
ways to include your child in your activities
how to see us as all wanting the same thing
breaking the you vs, me cycle, child's needs in conflict with mothers needs.
Is motherhood SUPPOSED to be a huge sacrifice? Is is seen that way in other cultures?

CC is a 'concept' or philosophy of child rearing. MUCH more than just a thread. We would discuss many of the same things on the rest of MDC, but from a CC perspective. While a lot of MDC applies, some of it just doesn't. All the stuff about play groups, play ground and child-centered activites for example. I just don't know how to reply to those posts (so I don't) because philosophically, I'm just so different from that. And I'd like advice on those things from OTHER CC-minded mamas. I'd love a place here on MDC to discuss this stuff.


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## kakies

Ellien C---







That's a great list.

It sums up most of my concerns. There are many more topics to discuss when it comes to TCC. As you said here on MDC we can discuss most of these topics but when you see things from a TCC point of view it is a whole new world of parenting.

Thanks for lisiting the topics.


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## nankilicious

I just found this thread! Is there a separate forum now/yet?
I need to go sleep on everything I just read and post some thoughts later.

I read TCC for the first time about 2 months ago, and am still just reeling...suffice to say that it is changing my whole outlook on life and mothering. I have learned alot too from the TCC listserv, and am learning mostly to think about things differently.

Ok, sleep now, more writing later


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## AmyMN

Hi, Ellien C,

Thank you so much for thinking through and typing your list. Will you e-mail it to Cynthia, or do you want me to do it?

Cynthia from Mothering.com needs to get an idea about the different topics <to discuss surrounding TCC> so she can see the need for a separate forum.


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## JohnnysGirl

Wow that is a great list. I'd LOVE a forum dedicated to CC mamas and these types of issues.

Does anyone else feel so isolated, facing motherhood mostly entirely alone (meaning, no extended family or close community members around us, no daily bustling, busy activity to share with such people) and finding yourselves sucked into artificially entertaining your child with toys (which I don't think is good for them or fulfilling for mom) or going out of doors for no other reason than subconsciously searching for a tribe...?
I long for a natural setting where there would be real tasks to accomplish during the day, with lots of other extended family members and good friends in the community coming and going, and there being all ages represented at virtually all times. You wouldn't have to sit down and entertain your bored toddler (speaking from my personal experience as of late here) because there would be so much activity going on all the time, that your child would feel free to explore and partake in with everyone the child has come to be familiar with, and 'mom' would just be there for ...well whatever the child needs, but not as the sole, constant companion/play partner.

I'm rambling, sorry.


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## Periwinkle

Has anyone read both "The Continuum Concept" and "Our Babies, Ourselves"? I read CC a while ago, but just finished OBO. OBO brought up a lot of the same points as CC, but it was facinating because it showed how differently other cultures do things and how much culture and environment impact how we raise our children. It was nice to see consistencies like extended BFing, cosleeping, and babywearing in almost every other "primitive" and non-industrial culture. I know I for one was pretty skeptical about the way some CCers take what's said about the Yequana as gospel, but I was pleasantly surprised to see common threads throughout other cultures too. One thing I found really interesting about OBO was the description of how mothers work with a baby, i.e., the whole "village" concept of child rearing, for example, having a babysitter take care of the baby while the mother is out in the rice fields, but the mother is keeping a close eye on the baby and as soon as the baby needs to be fed, she stops what she's doing as soon as she can and comes over and feeds her. How easy being a working mother in this country would be if we could have a like-minded babysitter doting on our baby within view/earshot, and the flexibility to tend to your baby throughout your workday.


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## Persephone

Butterflymom, that's one reason I want to WAH. But you're right, most days it would just be me and dc, so they likely would get bored. Not to mention, seeing many people's contributions would be much better than just seeing mine.

Periwinkle, I have not read the other book you were talking about, but I think I really want to now.


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## thismama

Just wanted to pop my head in and say hi. I have not read the book, but want to now. Did read Our Babies Ourselves and loved it. I carried my babe LOTs when she was smaller, and still do now, tho she is also very interested in walking around now and having adventures. We hardly ever use our HUGE stroller, preferring instead to carry her. I am babycarrier obsessed, and particularly love my artist-mama-made wrap. She loves to be on my back. We co-sleep, bf, all that stuff.

This discussion has already helped me to reframe some guilt I was feeling for not being engaged with her ALL the time, playing/engaging directly some, and also sort of ignoring her and doing my thing but still being availalbe is my style. This has felt right to me, as it allows her to do her own thing and helps me maintain my sanity, but also I was wondering if it was "okay" in light of so much pressure to be constantly interacting and 'teaching'.

And I am chilling out over the past few days after exploring this thread about hovering over her when she is exploring. My dd's father is much more of a hoverer and often teases me about how many injuries my dd sustains while in my care (small bruises and scrapes etc). My mindset has been that she needs to take a few minor spills to learn spatial stuff, but also have some self doubt about not catching her "every time". CC makes so much sense to me and is validating my instincts in this area. Even thinking of possibly removing the babygate and letting her explore more often our staircase (7 stairs of so), albeit I would put lots of pillows around the bottom at first! What do you think mamas?

Thanks lots for such an informative discussion!


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## Ellien C

Yes - I've read OBO - very helpful book. For me, it really re-framed the whole western notion that babies are SUPPOSED to be a sacrifice. Like if you weren't prepared to quite your job, devote yourself to you kid, change your life, why did you have one in the first place? I took it as axiomatic that babies would REQUIRE a huge sacrifice in my life and waited a long time to have a baby. Both books helped me understand that is ONLY the way American culture sees having a baby. Some cultures see babies as an asset. And this goes back to the notion of mothers needs vs. childs needs. We culturally conditioned to see ourselves as competitive with everyone around us. You vs. me. Mama vs. baby, mama vs. papa. Etc, when I give, someone else gets and I lose. But I'm starting to understand that this is cultural conditioning, not the WAY of LIFE. Another way is to see that baby, mama, papa and sibs ALL want the same thing - harmony, happiness, etc. So what works for all? Some cultures see the baby as and asset, not a sacrifice. That's been very helpful to me. One more reason why I think we need our own forum. It's not a given that babies require huge sacrifice and investment. That is a culturally IMPOSED norm.

PS. How do I email the list to Cynthia? And do we need to find/choose a moderator?


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## AmyMN

Cynthia's email address is

*[email protected]*


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## Persephone

Ok, I looked up "Our Babies, Ourselves" at Amazon, and I found a couple other books that you guys might be interested in reading: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...=3RI7NNL9WVTUB

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...=3RI7NNL9WVTUB


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## Amoreena

Hello all! I've just found this thread and have been skimming through the 8 pages of posts. I can't claim to have read everything in depth. Any new word on a separate forum? (although I'm not entirely sure what that means)

My TCC history:
Read the book the first time in the early months of my first child's life, when I came across it in a LLL lending library in Montreal, Quebec, where I lived at the time. Was deeply affected by it, along with a handful of other books. Now I always think of Meredith Small's OUR BABIES, OURSELVES (haven't read) and Daniel Quinn's ISHMAEL (have read) along with TCC. I read TCC a second time a year or two after the first time, and would like to reread it again now. My loaner copy is out though








. I joined the TCC website listserv in that first year and have been a member ever since. I get great inspiration from that forum and find the whole realm very enlightening. I recently created a yahoo group for southern California TCCers (link in sig), in hopes of getting to meet some TCCers in real life.

Glad to find some TCCers in the MDC realm!


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## Ellien C

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MisfitMama*
I have been thinking a lot about this, and I remembered that children in daycare are always found to be more aggressive, overall. So I am working on a theory that maybe to "cure" a "violent" child, one could give them a lot more body contact. What do you think?

I'm the mom of a toddler in day care so the aggression thing is really starting to emerge. What I am seeing is that children REALLY pick up on our reactions. So, when a normal babe "hits" in our culture, we all SWOOP in to stop the agression. OK - not everyone, but the "good" mothers do. And we tend to try and stop this immediately, regardless of how much force is used.

I think perhaps the Yequana don't react quite so stongly to the normal toddler/babe urges to poke, swat and hit. This is the part in the book where she says they act like a tree branch hit them when someone hits. What I've noticed is that my DD reacts very poorly when another child swats at her - like she starts screaming, even if it didn't hurt. I think this is a 'learned' reaction - because day care, understandably, spends a lot of energy getting kids to "stop" hitting. I think it almost makes it worse. There's a dynamic there that both children know that hitting will result in more attention paid to both of them. I think if we could ignore some of the early hitting/swatting instead of trying to correct it, it might go away and we wouldn't teach toddlers to have such strong reactions to being hit/swatted.

Am I making any sense?


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## Persephone

Ellien, I think you're making a lot of sense. It's like when a child falls, and you SWOOP in to make sure they're ok, and you fuss over them, then they're going to cry if they fall, because they almost think that's the reaction they "should" have. But if you just go "oopsie!", then they're more likely to bounce back and continue playing.

I noticed that my reaction had a dramatic affect on my friend's toddler. Once, we were in her house, and she started patting my boobs. It didn't hurt, and I didn't mind. So I smiled, and sort of talked to her. But her mom said, "You shouldn't do that to anyone but mommy." And I realized that even though I didn't mind, others likely would. So, the next time I saw her, she tried to do it again, I ignored her, and just moved her hands away, while continuing the conversation I was having. She got the message not to do that, and I never actually had to speak to her. Sort of like moving the tree branch.

Tonight, we were at the house of my friend and her dd again, and everyone there was paying so much attention to her. I mean, she was like the focus of the evening. I understand, because the people who were there were all childless, and she's the only child in our lil group of friends, and they don't see her a whole lot. But I felt like she was more of a novelty than a child of our friend. I almost felt like because I wasn't paying that much attention to her, that I must seem like I don't like her, or don't like kids or something, and that can't be further from the truth. I love her like she was one of my own. But I don't think she should have gotten all the attention the whole evening. (She's 3, btw.)


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## nankilicious

I just ordered OBOurselves with my holiday gift cert







Should be here soon.

I do also feel a keen sense of loss that I dont have a tribe to share work and babyrearing and community with. Heck, I dont even have very many friends with babies, let alone ones that want to share chores.









I just have one child, and very often we simply have nothing to do at times during the day. We live in a condo in the city, and it can be very isolating, especially in bad weather. Our activities are going to LLL mtgs, AP groups, playgroups, etc, but not very CC in nature. Its kids all amok and mommys grabbing hands and solving toy scuffles. Even if I have a friend over with her child, its more like coffee and visiting than "doing" anything.

OH, and DH gets very stressed about DD doing anything! He is constantly hovering, rescuing, and saying Careful Careful (but worse, in a baby voice, and he actually says Tareful, but I digress) Guess what, when she slips (probably because she is paying more attention to him cajoling her than to where her foot is) she cries and he woefully says Sorry Sorry... during the day she might stumble or plop down heavily, but no tears. She looks at me, and I just look back, trying not to convey any emotion but observing, and she just goes on.

Not to say she never cries over a tumble around me, but she doesnt do it because I expect her to react that way.

must go to sleep now, but will keep checking in on this thread


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## kakies

I agree. Kids pick up on the way we react to different situations. When my 3yo would do something that hurt my 10mo I would quickly pick her (the baby) up and give her so much attention even if she wasn't "that" hurt. I would do this because I wanted my 3yo to learn empathy. But what happend was that the baby learned to cry louder, much much louder and my 3yo learned to bump her 'own' head and cry like a baby for attention.

Now I hold back more. If one of them is crying or hurt I just say something like "it's ok, don't worry you'll feel better soon". They have both changed in the way they react. The baby sometimes gets bumped or squeezed (accidentaly) by her sister but she ends up laughing or she'll just let out a quick cry, as if she said "OUCH" and then she keeps on playing. And my 3yo has stopped bumping her head for attention. She doesn't 'crave' for it anymore because she doesn't see her lil' sister getting it either...does that make scense?

Change of subject- I would like to see the topic about "Babies mouthing small objects" discussed among experienced CC parents. How did you deal with trust? When did you know your child was ready to be trusted with those small objects? Was it 'anything goes' or where certain objects 'no-no's?


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## Ellien C

My kid was probably a little older than 6 months when I discovered CC. I let her mouth just about anything after 12 months age. Before that I was just too nervous. I've heard that breastfed babies have better choking/gag reflexes.

I've had two incidences - in one case she has a small little toy and my cousin was trying to get it out of her mouth. The cousin ended up jamming it in there between her teeth and the roof of her mouth, so her mouth was stuck open. Cousin kept trying to finger sweep it out, whereas I wasn't worried. DD was about 18 months old when that happened. Then a week ago, DD got something else wedged in there and I was able to remove it.

Now I did discourage her from putting inappropriate things in her mouth. Like one time she kept putting small rocks in there. And I kept saying not in the mouth. It was funny though because at first she was looking up at my when she put a pebble in. But I kept saying no, so then she stopped looking up with the rock and kept her head down. Well, I thought she had stopped putting pebbles in her mouth. A few minutes later she had a mouth full and I told her to spit them out.

Now at 20 months I don't restrict anything except my VERY sharp scissors which have given me a bleeding cut and VERY sharp very large knives. My DD really likes my sewing pins with the colored heads. She's poked herself with them, but only in the last month. Before that she was really very ginger with them. Once she tried to put them in her mouth, but I told her not to.

You know your own kid though. You need to follow your instincts, and remember that they'll do what you expect them to. I don't think there's one right answer here.


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## tea olive

sometimes it takes some training on the parent's part, for peace of mind. when i had one newborn and a 2.5, i observed a one year old girl walking around with marbles in her mouth. i will say now that i'm definitely of the opinion that girls have different talents from boys. but that encouraged me to not worry about it for my 2nd. i would give him smaller and smaller things and observe him with them. it's pretty hard for anyone to swallow a penny, though i did worry more about the older one running into him a bit. after a certain point it was a real relief to not worry about swallowing a choking at all, compared to watching each object. with #3, i hardly paid attention. i tend to just watch for long and sharp objects. i'm of the opinion that it is important that i allow them to learn to live in their body with the least amount of my interference. it feels wrong to swallow hard objects, and i have faith in that.


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## myrrhmaid

nak
as far as stuff in the mouth-if it's not toxic, very sharp or electronic it's all systems go. we camped w/ exs-mil and she was horrified that dd had a rock in her mouth and ran up to her-cigarette and all







to take it away from her-with the hand she had her cig. in







. i was more worried about the chemicals on xmil hands (after the concern of her burning dd) then the stone!
i made the mistake of wanting to show dd the wood stove was hot so i faked getting burned and said ouch-then it became a game. i even knew better...if we cry wolf on things of importance-don't think they don't know. it's important to be authentic.
it's by our care (or lack of) that they learn.
i'm having issues with dh too. i let dd play on top of the table. she's careful and likes to sit there when i'm writing. she has some paper pencils/pens/crayons. he flips each time he sees her up there and makes a big deal about her getting hurt and get down right now....so he's my big challenge right now.


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## kakies

Okay, one more question. Mouthing objects is one thing, but what about food? Objects usually stay in one piece but food doesn't. One of dd2's first foods were whole bananas. Of course I was a nervous reck, and still am when I give her a banana to eat. She does pretty well, she sort of sucks on it and scrapes it with her teeth but if I see her take a big chunk out of it I usually panic. I am afraid that it will slip into her throat so I sort of try to hold back and trust her but I usually end up sticking my finger in to mash it up a little.

So how do you deal with foods that come apart into slippery chunky pieces?


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## JohnnysGirl

*Can* a child truly choke on a chunk of banana? Isn't it too mushy and slippery to get lodged in the throat for long?


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## Ellien C

I mushed foods when DD was young say 8mos-15 months.

After that age I started giving her more foods - even things like popcorn, which is supposed to be a choking hazard. Wasn't a problem for us. She had a piece of pork stuck in her throat once around 10 months old. She kept "hocking" it, so I finger swept it out of her mouth and gave her smaller chunks. My dad actually noticed that it was too big for her to eat. But boy she howled when we "stole" the food right out of her mouth. Mom and I empathsized a LOT. " oh you didn't like that did you?" "i was getting meat juices and they took the food right out of my mouth."

There's no one answer here. I can't tell you NOT to worry about it because children apparently do die from having hotdogs stuck in their throat. But I can tell you to follow your instincts and watch your child, without reading too many "parenting" books.


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## mollyeilis

So....why wouldn't you just mash up the banana?

I have a friend who doesn't use a baby-food grinder, but will simply chew some food then give it to her baby.

Talk about continuum! Talk about being Stone Age!









I'm not speaking from experience because we just don't see the need to feed DS solids (he shows as much interest in the cat as he does foods, and we certainly aren't feeding him the cat), but I don't know why you wouldn't just squish up the banana. I'm not seeing what's non-continuum about mushy food.


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## kakies

okay I know that I sort of take things a little further than most people sometimes... but the thing about not using mashed bananas is this thought: "baby monkeys don't get their bananas mashed up by their mamma monkeys and they learn to eat bananas without anyone instructing them".

So I came up with the idea of feeding my baby only things things that she would be capable of eating on her own; in it's natural form. I keep seeing children with digestive problems, like constipation or children who gag at foods with texture and I think that maybe it has to do with the way we feed them from the begining. Maybe we take foods that are ment to be eaten with a full set of teeth and we puree them in order to feed them to our babies. Maybe babies bodies only need what babies can handle feeding theirselves, kwim? Oh, then they get used to only the liquified version of things and when you try to give them something heartier they either spit it out, choke on it or they gag.

That's why I feed my 10mo whole bananas, whole star fruit, I nurse her, I give her water, avocados, carrots to suck and chew on (although I do take the tips off). This is my understanding of what a natural diet should be like. And I intoduce new foods acording to how well she could eat them without me having to process them in any way.

And when I think of bananas vs hotdogs (natural vs man made) they are both very different. I don't know how much of my concerns about her eating bananas are actually triggered by my own instinct or by cultural influence. But that's a whole new CC topic, isn't it?
























Okay wake up! I'll stop now.


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## Ellien C

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kakies*
"baby monkeys don't get their bananas mashed up by their mamma monkeys and they learn to eat bananas without anyone instructing them".


Are we sure they don't though? I'm not really sure, but mightn't a baby monkey steal food right out of it's mama's mouhth - all chewed up? Or mightn't the mama give the baby partially chewed food? I just don't know. I know some birds regurgitate the food for their young.

Interesting observation on the texture aversion and digestive issues there. Have you seen any of the work by Dr. Natasha Campbell McBride? She's an MD/Nutritionist in England who believes a lot of Autism Spectrum disorder children suffer from gut problems - wrong flora that can't make the right vitamins.


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## kakies

Ellien C- You have a point there about the monkey eating thing. I could picture a baby monkey picking food out of his mothers mouth or picking up whatever has fallen out. Thanks for the eye opener... I guess I will have to do some research.

Never heard of Dr. Natasha Campbell McBride, sounds interesting


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## nankilicious

First, having just finished reading Our Babies, Ourselves by Meredith Small, I want to say, I LOVED it. It helped me put TCC in perspective. Well, reading that, and learning from the discussions here and on the TCC mail group. I read TCC for the first time a couple months ago, and promptly lent out my copy. Not having it in front of me, I cant go check exactly what JL said about small infants eating, but here are some conclusions I have come to:

I cannot do exactly as Yequana do, because I am not Yequana. I wasnt brought up with their expectations, their sensibilities, a tribe, a tribe mentality, no one role modelled Yequana life for me. Furthermore, I have been brought up in a white, middle class, middle america, Western culture. Myself and my baby(s) will have to determine our values and behaviours by integrating what the culture at large do and what is modelled in our home.

Reading about parenting and child treatment across cultures and times in OBO made me recognize the essential truth about what babies biologically expect and need to thrive. Pretty much universally this boils down to cosleeping, breastfeeding in terms of years, almost constant touch with primary caretaker or very committed team of caretakers with communal expectations.

Things that are discussed in TCC about danger, work, non coercion, etc, are behavioral expectations and not biological, and are different depending on the goals and lives of the community. Even among "traditional", or Non Western, or cultures living without modern technology. Its hard to say which is "best" or even "better". It really depends on any culture or group adapting for survival.

At any rate:

Re: the eating thing: There is evidence that monkeys eat partially masticated food from their mothers.







Also, there is a people called the Ache in Paraguay who supplement breastmilk with insect larvae.







Yequana subsist mostly on manioc and cassava, as I recall. (must get book back!) And they grow, harvest and process all their own food. If I were to be really CC, I guess I would at the very least have my own garden and not have organic produce delivered to me from a local farm. :LOL

As for my 10 mo old, she is just now showing any interest in solids, but she refuses anything on a spoon, and would prefer to nibble off whatever I am eating, sandwich, pizza, etc. She will pick up small bits of food off her tray to try and eat. I see my job as to provide her with manageable sizes of regular food, and if she wants to consume it, fine. If not, fine. I dont see why a CC mother would not break off a smaller piece of banana for her child to try, rather than give a whole fruit. On the other hand, a CC baby/child would have a dozen other child modelling eating behaviours for them all the time, and it might be more likely they would manage a large fruit if thats what the norm is.

We just cant know for sure, so I just go by my instinct. If your instinct is to be a nervous wreck about giving a chokeable item, then dont do it, even if your instinct may be "tainted" by your nonCC culture. Instinct is instinct. IMHO.


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## mother culture

I Met the author at a Ca midwifery conference in 2000. She was brilliant,
I remember a crawling baby crawled up to her near the stage when she was giving her talk and she carefully grabbed the baby by the arm and raised her up off the ground ( baby was interested and content) I guess she was trying to
show how much babies were like monkeys and were very durable. She was the original AP movement before Dr Sears coined this, in her view stole her coin.
We follow this method for the most part. I wish I did live in a tribe and a community in which I could live without all of the distractions of the tech society!
Anyone want to come start a commune in Northern Ca? Ha!


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## Periwinkle

Interesting re: the eating thing. I agree to a large extent that the overly pureed texture of foods is not a good idea,on the other hand, monkeys are a lot more capable than human infants (another OBO reference).

I have been facinated by the development of dd and ds' ability to eat and interest in food in correlation with their development of teeth. As soon as they had a few teeth, they seemed to handle lumpier bites and chunks well. Then with the appearance of their full set of molars, they have been eating nuts whole (e.g, pecans which arevery hard to chew) and larger chunks of meat. They now eat almost entirely what we do. I always hated the idea of making separate meals for everyone in the family and I do think there's good continuum evidence that this just isn't done, although there is evidence that infants do get mashed or masticated food in most cultures.

Interesting stuff!


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## Ellien C

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
....monkeys are a lot more capable than human infants (another OBO reference).

Read Elaine Morgan: Descent of the Child for more on that. It's out of print but availble from Amazon from the used book vendors.


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## mollyeilis

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nankilicious*
I cannot do exactly as Yequana do, because I am not Yequana. I wasnt brought up with their expectations, their sensibilities, a tribe, a tribe mentality, no one role modelled Yequana life for me. Furthermore, I have been brought up in a white, middle class, middle america, Western culture. Myself and my baby(s) will have to determine our values and behaviours by integrating what the culture at large do and what is modelled in our home.

****
Things that are discussed in TCC about danger, work, non coercion, etc, are behavioral expectations and not biological, and are different depending on the goals and lives of the community. Even among "traditional", or Non Western, or cultures living without modern technology. Its hard to say which is "best" or even "better". It really depends on any culture or group adapting for survival.

This reminded me of a thought I had the other week.

Background: My 7 month old is naturally (we don't have walkers or exersaucers or anything like that) extremely mobile; just last night he started flirting with standing alone. He pulls himself up on the couch, the walls, the table, and our legs. Also any boxes we might have around. Those boxes aren't necessarily heavy enough to "stand still" while he pulls up, but he has learned to go slow and instinctively push down on those objects as he stands (whereas he does it differently when using the couch).

Anyway, he improves every day and I don't remember how proficient he was when I had these thoughts, but it was likely he wasn't as good at stabilizing the non-stable items at the time.

Anyway, as I quelled my urge to say "don't fall!" as he pulled up on a box and tried to figure out a positive way to say something (like in the tub yesterday rather than saying "don't fall over while I wash your hair" I said "in the bathtub, babies sit up, we take baths sitting up" as a way of teaching him what I expect from him), I realized if we *were* in the jungle, he'd be pulling up on a tree. Or a stump. (or a leg, OK.







) Something stable and rooted. Not a box sitting there to "hide" papers or whatever.

And that's likely why we want to say "don't fall!" If it were a tree, the tree probably isn't going to move while a 20 pound baby is practicing standing, but a box or a table just might.

That's all. Just a little thought.


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## nankilicious

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollyeilis*
Anyway, as I quelled my urge to say "don't fall!" as he pulled up on a box and tried to figure out a positive way to say something (like in the tub yesterday rather than saying "don't fall over while I wash your hair" I said "in the bathtub, babies sit up, we take baths sitting up" as a way of teaching him what I expect from him), I realized if we *were* in the jungle, he'd be pulling up on a tree. Or a stump. (or a leg, OK.







) Something stable and rooted. Not a box sitting there to "hide" papers or whatever.

And that's likely why we want to say "don't fall!" If it were a tree, the tree probably isn't going to move while a 20 pound baby is practicing standing, but a box or a table just might.

That's all. Just a little thought.









That is a good point. There are just too many differences between the Yequana and my society to just do what they do. I take what I can, and apply it to my life.

I also say to my DH that if babies were not supposed to fall down, then they wouldnt be so short and low to the ground
:LOL They dont get hurt in the same way that I might if I toppled over. In regards to the earlier post about small objects..well, I have tried to reduce the kind of clutter an small potentially dangerous non-necessary items in my home. But babies are hardwired to put things in their mouths. Thats what they do. So I sort of go with the flow, but I dont leave a jar of buttons out, either. Again, dd has a pretty strong gag reflex still, even at 10 mos, and doesnt usually swallow food, let alone coins.


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## Persephone

A woman was complaining about how she was bored entertaining her 6 month old all day, and how she felt the baby might be bored too. Another woman complained that she felt "chained" to her baby, because she's the primary caregiver. I feel that perhaps these women might be too "child centered". But perhaps this is how non child centered (CC) people feel sometimes? I don't know, since I've never had children, but what would you say to someone who felt that way? I feel like mentioning CC might be useful, but maybe I'm way off base and have no clue what I'm talking about.


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## nankilicious

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Persephone*
A woman was complaining about how she was bored entertaining her 6 month old all day, and how she felt the baby might be bored too. Another woman complained that she felt "chained" to her baby, because she's the primary caregiver. I feel that perhaps these women might be too "child centered".

First of all, its really really hard to not be "child centered" when there is only you and the child, especially if you are a SAHM or even WAHM. And even more so if you only have one baby.

In one sense, of course, you are focused on your new baby, and you are attending to their almost constant needs...feeding, diapering, holding...But I dont think that is what child centered means. This article from teh TTC site may help explain better than I can.
http://www.continuum-concept.org/rea...InControl.html

But if at 6 mos the mom is bored, and thinks the baby is too, then they probably need to find some things to do!









The more I think about it, the more I think its not that the mother is child centered, but that the mother is too isolated. In a tribe, or heck, even an extended family that lives close together, there is going to be lots more interaction and work for mom, and baby experiences this in the sling, and as they are older, with groups of other children.

As for the mom who feels chained, I dont know if she is being child centered or has unrealistic expectations about what babies need, if she is being too self sacrificing or not enough...







: Its hard to say. What kind of pressures is she facing?

In either case, if your friends seem receptive, there is no harm in recommending The Continuum Concept. They may not embrace it wholeheartedly, but depending on where they are in the AP spectrum, they may really respond to it.


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## Persephone

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I felt uncomfortable saying something, because they're having difficulty with mothering, and I really can't fathom that problem right now. I'm childless, and every cell is screaming to have a baby. So I wanted to try to be caring without coming across insensitve or as a know it all. I did recommend the book, and it seemed to be well recieved. I just wanted to see what other CCers thought before I said something.


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## muse

Wow, this thread is enormous and I've only read up to page 7 so far!
I'm re-reading TCC right now. I tried reading it when DS was 2yrs and found it so frustrating and heart breaking. I couldn't get beyond the "taking your baby to work" part because it is completely impossible for me to do that in my line of work (I'm a music therapist working with troubled children) and I felt it was another "blame the mother" type book that I didn't need in my head, without it offering viable alternatives.

But that was then...now Ds is 3 and I have another on the way. I'm reading it again and getting so much more out of it. There's a lot I seriously question/object to, as others have mentioned, but overall it's speaking to me much more than the AP books I've read and is helping me identify why and how motherhood has been...well, frustrating and disappointing...among all the other *wonderful* things it's been. I'd love to try and stay more aware of this the second time around, but I struggle with coming up with how to do things differently in society that is not CC-friendly.

A little background: when DS was 6 months old we felt instinctively we wanted to give him our attention, not put him in daycare, and that we wanted him to be in an environment he could roam freely, be around animals and grow vegetables and not have to battle 6 lanes of SUV's to get to a place to walk. So we left the bay area for western MA. That turned out to be an absolute disaster for me. Living in a rural area I was completely isolated and we spent way more time sitting in a car than before. It was us and DS stuck alone in a valley miles from other kids or adults So we upped and moved again and are now in a city in England and feel a *little* closer to a compromise, but it's still eternally frsutrating. Here at least we can walk everywhere and be out around farms and animals in 10 minutes, plus we have the wonderful tribe that comes along with the local subsidized Waldorf school full of CC-influenced parents.

BUT...ultimately we are still a nuclear family stuck in a terraced house, still facing the dilemma of work=daycare versus SAHP=isolation. Even the parents I connect with on most parenting approaches, I DON'T connect with in terms of day to day "activities" for our children. They do lots of stuff like gym class, soft play centers, zoo trips, playgrounds, etc etc. I feel sometimes like a "bad mama" because I can't stand doing that stuff but really it feels totally against my instincts to set up my day around a "child-friendly" activity where I'm dragging along behind or sitting there chatting when I'd rather be getting on with my life....

Am I making sense? Many people would see my attitude as "selfish" and I have to fight that in myself, but in no other cultures do women put aside everything to attend 100% to their children. They get on with the day to day work and living and the child gets on with their lives. Children are not dragged from one activity to another but are left simply to explore and interact with their environment OR given tasks that they are responsible for.

So as much as possible I just get on with my life; cooking, walking, making stuff, playing music, etc, and DS is beside me doing the same or doing his own thing. I think he is perfectly happy except for the fact that we are then both very isolated. I go nuts not being in the company of adults, and I know it's not helpful for he and I to spend so much time alone together.

I'm hoping having a second baby will somehow shift this all a little, but I'm also fearful it will set me way back, since I remember only too well the incredible isolation of the first couple of years.

I'd seriously love to pack up once this next one is a year old and take them both to a village in India for a while, if I could swing the $ part. When I was 3 and my brother was 5 we lived for a yr in morrocco and I think that impacted me in such a deep way, and I have never felt "right" in western culture since then. There we were free to roam, the whole town knew us and took care of us, we didn't have any toys except what my parents made for us, we would go shoppingin the market by ourselves, etc. I think it was such a shock to come back to life in a tiny flat in London with no freedom that i've never quite recovered...









Phew, a huge post, sorry, but this book/discussion has definitely stirred a lot up in me. I'd love to hear if anyone else has the same frustrations as me or has found "solutions".


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## AngelBee

I am interested in learning more on this topic....besides the library...any suggestions on where I could get a copy of the book super cheap???


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## HotMama

The book has been around so long, it's pretty easy to find used copies. Skip the chapter on homosexuality...she's tried to get that removed, but for some reason it's still there in the new editions even.

Welcome Maya...I think we are making a new path here and we have to take it lightly. We are not living in a village in Morocco or South America or Kenya (I have a friend parenting there and I get pretty jealous hearing about how different it is to parent a 2 yr old there than here!). We have all sorts of things going on in our communities that get in the way. And, there are cohousing communities, neighborhoods, etc where people are getting to know each other and finding ways to nurture their "tribe." Sharing meals, work or even your whole day with another family can help break up that isolation. I've been meditating daily for the past four months and that is helping me appreciate the quiet parts (at home) of our week. A friend and I just decided to spend our days at each other's homes (once a week to start), doing the work of the house and letting the kids run/wrestle/imitate us. It's a start and that's us doing what we can do. You just go for it.

Too bad you left the Bay Area. I have a friend there who would love to do this, but she hasn't met anyone up for it where she is.


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## DancerMom

I've been following this thread closely...I read TCC just after my older daughter was born and loved it, and was lucky enough to become friends with several other families who were trying to be as continuum as possible. I have since moved to another state and am having a hard time recreating what I used to have. I re-read TCC last summer while I was pregnant, and it resonated with me even more the second time around, despite my seeing many more flaws than in the first read.

I wanted to respond to a few things in the thread:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kakies*
So I came up with the idea of feeding my baby only things things that she would be capable of eating on her own; in it's natural form.

I did this...I think it's a little strange to sit down and spoon food into my child's mouth three times per day. So I never fed her, but offered her food she could handle and let her take what she wanted. I think a lot of people see their children exhibiting interest in food and think they must feed them, but in my experience it's usually not about hunger. My daughter experimented for a while around six months, and then lost/regained interest over the next few months, but didn't eat much at all until after she was one.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *muse*
Even the parents I connect with on most parenting approaches, I DON'T connect with in terms of day to day "activities" for our children. They do lots of stuff like gym class, soft play centers, zoo trips, playgrounds, etc etc. I feel sometimes like a "bad mama" because I can't stand doing that stuff but really it feels totally against my instincts to set up my day around a "child-friendly" activity where I'm dragging along behind or sitting there chatting when I'd rather be getting on with my life....

This is something I am really struggling with as well. I don't think that classes are inherently bad, but it feels wrong to be paying for my child to aquire a random skill, or worse yet, pay just to socialize! (I will, however, offer my kids certain lessons in the future, because I loved the music and dance I was exposed to as a child, and lessons are the way to get that in our culture.) And I hate going to the playground alone with my daughter...I just don't want to play that way. I don't mind going once a week or so with certain friends, if it means I get to visit, but it's still not ideal.

One thing that two of my friends and I are starting is a work share day. We're still figuring out details, but we want to rotate houses and do work each time. So we could bring laundry with us to do, for instance, while the kids are all playing. We'll see how it goes in reality.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nankilicious*
If your instinct is to be a nervous wreck about giving a chokeable item, then dont do it, even if your instinct may be "tainted" by your nonCC culture. Instinct is instinct. IMHO.

I think this is an important point, especially when considering the impact of our expectations. I think, though, that we need to examine those "tainted instincts" from a CC perspective (but given the parameters of whatever culture/society we live in) and really try to let go of the ones that don't feel right to us.

I recently agreed to host a playgroup I'm a part of (which is ap but not cc and has been driving me crazy ever since we all moved inside for winter, but that's another post). Only one woman showed up, and she spent the entire time telling her son how dangerous things in my house were. For instance, he was pointing to drinking glasses on the counter, which he couldn't even reach, and she would say, "Oh, no, honey, that's dangerous. That's glass, danger, danger." She was a perfectly nice woman, but the entire time she was here was like that, and I had a really hard time being around it. Plus, I don't want my daughter exposed to that. And, sort of OT, I really dislike it when other people tell her to be careful or that something is dangerous, especially when I'm right there looking at her.

I have more to write but need to go nurse my baby. One last question. Does anyone else have a hard time recommending TCC? I think there's a lot in the book that can put a person off (the description of what a baby goes through in a typical hospital birth scenario, the homosexuality issue, etc) and so I get nervous when I suggest it or lend it to someone. I just want them to get as much out of it as I did, and take the other stuff with a grain of salt, y'know?

This really could have its own forum. There are just too many topics to discuss from a CC perspective for one thread.


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## nankilicious

http://www.mothering.com/articles/bo...eed_kids.html]

dont have much time to write, but wanted to share this link, as it has inspired a few people on the CC email group to initiate this type of relationship recently. The email group is a wonderful source for bouncing ideas and asking advice, sharing wisdom of people trying to make more CC choices.
http://www.continuum-concept.org/forum/index.html

I havent really enjoyed any of the playgroups I have attended. It ends up just being a bunch of moms watching their kids play, and maybe talking about something else, but mostly talking about their kids. And like someone else mentioned, I certainly dont want to pay money for a playgroup, which is what most pre-school or pre-pre-school classes are.

As for recommending the book...hmm. I would probably recomend it in conjunction with Our Babies Ourselves by Meredith Small. OBO gives some perspective that is lacking in TCC. But I would also point people to the TCC site, there are links to articles, and point them here, also. I think it is important to really analyse the concept and think it out...I think some things, like the "pit" story and the knives story are taken too literally. I dont think that the "moral" of the story is that you dont have to pay attention to your kids, or that nothing is dangerous. I think that in Yequana culture, knives are used all the time, and children can see what they are used for, and their importance and place, and there is probably an expectation that they wont use them until they can use them properly.

How often do our kids see us exercise caution and safety with knives? How often do they see us use machetes? I just dont think the stories from the book translate literally to Western culture.

But if you have just read the book for the first time, and have just had a lot of your own upbringing called into question, its hard to really analyse it that deeply right away. In fact, I have lent out my copy (again!) and as soon as I get it back I am reading it again. This time, I have OBO by Meredith Small in mind, and all the discussions here and on the email list, and I will see what I think about it.

I love this thread! Thanks for all the thought provoking questions!


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## HotMama

We do a parent/child class at our local Waldorf school. The moms are busy sewing up some sort of little doll or gnome thing, while the children play. It's a nice balance and many of the folks I've met there are more on the CC side of things than just going to any park. When I do go to our park (two blocks away), I always take a project. Sometimes I work on it, sometimes I just visit with folks in the park. We have many friends we meet in the park. We don't plan it...when it is dry long enough for the slides to dry, we all come out of our musty holes up here in the Northwest and end up at the park. We're even working with the city to make it more inter-generational friendly. It's almost like the park is an extension of our yard for some of us families, and indeed, a couple of the families have yards that open onto the park.

We're also starting to do the tribe thing mentioned above with a family we've been crafting with for a while. I also want to try the full moon work party idea from the nov/dec Mothering.


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## muse

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HotMama*
Too bad you left the Bay Area. I have a friend there who would love to do this, but she hasn't met anyone up for it where she is.

Thanks for the welcome, hotmama. Hmm, I would think the bay area was full of CC-influenced parents, but I'm not sure how you'd go about finding them. there are the Waldorf playgroups, but they're so pricy out there. Or there is the berkeleyparents.edu listserv where you can read about new groups setting up; lots are co-ops or "waldorf inspired", etc. I'm sad we left mainly because of the amount of time I spent outoors there. But since my new year's resolution was to "appreciate where I am", I am also feeling this is a pretty good place to be right now









About the classes thing, I guess I forgot Dh was taking DS to a pottery class for a while. That seemed the perfect balance since it wasn't aimed at kids, but would incorporate them. Dh paid a super low price to learn new skills and make stuff and DS had a great time playing with the clay alongside him and meeting other people there. I need to find somethign like that for me to do with him. Or maybe I need to set up some music groups myself that offer the same thing to other parents...some day down the line...Lately i have taken to knitting which is the last thing I'd ever expect to be doing but I like that it means I'm busy while DS is playing and he is seeing me making stuff and is curious about that.


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## Ellien C

I haven't had much time but a couple of things:

1) the CC mail list is just discussing how people got "Tribes" or workdays going. Lot's of good stuff there - including well-thought out "rules" for how to make things work. You need to subscribe, but once you do, you can access the archives for the stuff on setting up a tribe.

2) To DancerMom-
Are you familiar with the Dances of Universal Peace? It's kind of hippie thing, but also very "tribal." I bring my not-yet-2 year old to this every month at my church and it's quite enjoyable. At first she was the only babe there, but now there are 2 other toddlers a year and 2 older than her. Basically we have some people playing musical instruments and each dance is taught before we do it. Then we do the dances - most of them circle or rotating partner dances.

From their website:
The Dances of Universal Peace are simple, meditative, joyous, multi-cultural circle dances that use sacred phrases, chants, music, and movements from the many traditions of the earth to touch the spiritual essence within ourselves and others. Based on the work begun in the late 60's by Samuel L. Lewis, they promote peace and integration within individuals and groups worldwide. There are no performers nor audience - new arrivals and old hands form the circle together. And, no prior experience is necessary!
http://www.dancesofuniversalpeace.org/about.htm

and I second the "ICK" for weird toddler things like Gymboree. Which just made me ill at the one b-day party I went to there.

Music Together is another good program though, where the PARENTS participate and the children watch until they begin to imitate. I liked their philosophy a lot - you never take a child's hands and move them for him - you just make music and then eventually they do as well. We have this in my day care - which is a whole other thread on the CC-ness of it.


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## DancerMom

Ellien C--

Thanks for the link, I will check it out. It sounds really cool

I did Music Together, and I have really mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, I love the philosophy behind it, and my daughter LOVED it. She still listens to the CDs, and I still use the "putting away song" where the kids respond to encourage her to do things. But it is really expensive, and so the people who go tend to be pretty homogenous. Also, there's no real way to meet the people in the class. Most people just show up and leave, and the classes are back to back, so there's not an opportunity to really connect, for the kids or the parents. But then a few friends and I did it ourselves for the summer, and that was really great. We'd all eat lunch and do music class and then often nap them all at one house. That felt really good.


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## JohnnysGirl

Just wanted to bump this up, sub to the thread, and vent!

I'm 19 weeks pregnant with #2 and DS is 18 mo. with a verrrry low tolerance for a boring scenario: a.k.a. just hanging out in our apartment in the city with me trying to rest (having signs of preterm labor again-DS was a preemie- and trying to rest as much as possible). He will totally fuss until I get down in the floor and play with him or take him out in the city, pushing him/silnging him mostly because he doesn't understand not getting into the street yet and won't just hold my hand nicely and walk beside me for too long at one time yet. I do try to go to parks and let him just explore a bit, but it's extremely cold in Finland lately (about 7 degrees farenheit, for example). I'm a foreigner in Finland, my husband works a lot, and it's just me and DS all day long from 8am-8pm with him being very needy of constant stimulation all the time. Which is perfectly normal and if I only had a tribe with other kiddos, I could take it easy and watch them play together or know that other mamas had one eye on the action if I wanted to close my eyes for awhile (so fatigued with this pg!). But alas, I have no tribe, not even an AP one,much less a work-share-type CC tribe, and have only a couple of friends in this area so far (living here 2 years now, moved from Boston/&before that Honolulu areas of the US) and it's so hard. I don't have any help with DS as far as giving him something to do (the kid deserves action and activities at his age for learning and developing) or someone to do it with, and I may be on bed rest before too long! Oh brother! The only bright side is that in-laws, DH, and BIL will all have much more free time in the summer months, which would be my last 10 weeks of pg, and hopefully will take off additional weeks off to their summer holiday and be available for summertime activities with my DS, so I can be off my feet.

Thanks for letting me vent! I wish ya'll lived in my neighborhood and we could just get together and...and....NOT be isolated and NOT have an artificial existence with our babes/toddlers!


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## MisfitMama

Hi, everyone,

I've been away for a while and I'm glad to see this thread still exists. I had no idea there was support for the idea of having our own forum; I started another thread about it once, but got no response. There is so much in this thread that I'd love to comment on, etc., but as you have all noticed, it's pretty overwhelming when there are so many different topics being discussed all at once.

I just wanted to say that I am going through a lot of the same stuff that you all are, with playgroups, isolation, etc.

One thing that I'm *really* struggling with is living in the city. As someone just mentioned, it is ideal as far as people to meet, things to do, places to walk to, public transport, etc.. But I am so very sad that my ds doesn't have nature around him, the way I did as a kid (in the suburbs, but in the woods. . . ) But I know if we moved to the country I'd feel totally isolated and always be in the car. It just sucks.

But, having just complained I'd like to say that my ds is almost 2 and I am just so happy about the way I'm raising him (read TCC when he was 7 weeks). In case that is inspirational to anyone else who has a younger kid on here.

Oh, I was also really inspired by the Waldorf stuff. I have always had the impression that I'd be annoyed with Waldorf people because, IMO, some of the Waldorf stuff is a bit counter to CC. But it's good to know that that community is a good place for lots of you guys to hang out! I'm going to a Waldorf event this week, in fact. . .

Thanks

MisfitMama


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## G's mommy

:


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## lemon

Also







:

I was wondering if this tribe was still around. Happy to see it is.


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## nankilicious

Hey, this thread has been quiet for a while...glad to see its still being checked in on.









Inspired by a recent Mothering article, and some posts on the TCC email group, I have managed to set up some "Tribe Days" for my family. Tuesdays we get together with another mama and her 2 sons (age 2.5 & 4) and Thursdays with my longtime bestfriend (no kids). When I am with the mama with kids, we need to get outdoors and deal with that kid energy :LOL and we plan to hit the Aquarium once a month on our share day, and we always prepare dinner for both our families. She and I just started, so we are getting used to the whole thing still.

When I am with my b/f, we run errands, do chores, household projects (last week we painted my kitchen. My dd was either napping or tied to my back) and prepare dinner.

We alternate whose house we are at weekly, and our husbands meet us wherever we are after work, and we all eat together. Its so very nice. I think for our husbands too.

CC-wise, what I am struggling with lately actually doesnt have anything to do with parenting. I am really grappling with the whole non-coercion, non-judgement, acceptance and tolerance aspect, in regards to my family members...like my mom, sister, and brother.

Ex. my mother was divorced from my father for 15 years, then she married this guy she met online after 6 weeks of dating (meeting in person only 3 times) Right away everyone in the family disliked this guy because he was abrasive, possessive, domineering, and not genuine. After a horrible year of marriage, they divorced. He married wife #3 a week later. Now, its been a year, (during which he has not stopped calling my mother) and he is divorcing wife #3 and my mom is dating him again, and talking marriage. She basically said this is her last shot at being married, and she wants to try again.

Basically, I had to listen to an entire year of her crying and complaining over this dudes shabby treatment of her, plus the year they were divorced, her moping about what a big mistake it all was, and now she wants me to be all happy for her. Well, I cant! I loathe this guy and everything he has said and done to her, and I predict that its only going to be a matter of time before she is miserable again. Which is how she ALWAYS is, miserable.

So, I just told her straight out that it was her life, nothing I would say would make a difference, so I was not going to say anything, one way or the other, and that I wasnt going to listen to anything about him or the situation.

I am having a very difficult time balancing my desire to be accepting and non judgemental against my urge to tell her what a colossal mistake she is making. The whole concept of Live and Let Live is new to me, for sure. But I am trying...I am desirous of change and understanding. I guess that is a step in the right direction...







ok, sorry this is so long. I dont even know if it makes sense, I am venting and trying to figure this thing out.


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## yaM yaM

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MisfitMama*
IMO, some of the Waldorf stuff is a bit counter to CC.


I'd love for you to elaborate on your thoughts on this matter. I, too, am loyally devoted to CC first, but find that Waldorf -- as far as an educational environment, as well as some of the Anthroposophical guidelines for living -- is the best choice out there for school/community/etc. I do not know any CCers with older children in my area. (My children are ten and four.)

Thanks.


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## HotMama

Well, I think your live and let live lesson is mighty big...and yes, your mom will have to make her own mistakes (again!).


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## spunky

I am the only person I know that has read TCC. I have kept up with the threads here on Mothering when I have a chance as they are my only support. I just moved to a new small city and found the best way to meet people quickly was by joining MOMS club and going to baby classes. Although my favorite is a pilates/yoga classes where the baby can wander around with a ball and come to bf whenever he wants while we all work out. (The mama pouch is still there.)
Most of the time we wake up whenever he wakes up (he wakes up within minutes of my getting out of bed, so I often stay in bed and read a book because that is my favorite activity for me) or in time to go work out, get dressed, go downstairs and get some hot water, check email, put some laundry in; eventually after enough puttering it is time to start lunch. This usually takes about two hours just for a simple vegetable salad and pasta and pesto. He usually plays with the pots and spoons. Half the time he wants to be held the whole time so I have figured out that what he really wants is to see what is going on on the counter. I pulled a stool up but then have to clear practically the whole counter before he throws everything off. Then it is nap time before I finish eating. After nap, if it is nice out we take the dogs for a walk, if not I try to do some bookkeeping or graphic design work or writing. All on the computer. It has gotten so that when he sees me heading towards the desk he starts to scream. If I pull him up onto my lap then he wants to pull everything off the desk. So I put him down with something to play with. He has plenty to explore, I don't restrict that in any way. Basically he just does everything he can to get my attention. He is 12 mo, walking, climbing, going up and down stairs by himself. The contents of my trash cans are all over my floors, my tupperware and pots and pans are all over my floor or in my trash cans. All the drawers two feet or less above ground are pulled out and emptied. Then my hubby comes home and lets out this big sigh because everything is a mess.
Does this make any sense? I wonder what other CC moms do all day. Do their one year olds seem lonely? Are all CC houses pig sties or immaculate? What happens after the in arms phase?


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## yaM yaM

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spunky*
*

What happens after the in arms phase**?*









:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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## JohnnysGirl

Oh spunky, I totally relate. My son is now 19 months but things haven't changed in the area you describe of spending a day alone with a mobile young toddler since he was about your child's age. The drawers, trash, everything getting emptied and the house turning into chaos within minutes if you don't follow the child around cleaning up after them insessantly (ugh who would want ot spend their days doing that????).... when I head towards the computer (I do editing work from my computer at home VERY part time, just a few hours a week but I also come to MDC and write email since I'm living abroad and like to keep in contact with my american friends & family regularly, so the computer is a place I like to park in front of whenever I can to either work or socialize) he starts to scream because he just wants all my attention all the time.... when my husband comes home he sighs at the mess and wonders why I let it get like that. It's all quite familiar!
Oh, babe woke gotta run more later!


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## JohnnysGirl

It is a really good question.... I've found that without a 'tribe' of other families with children for your child to socialize with, just the mama/babe in an apartment in the city isolating thing going on, it's really hard not to feel like you are just spending all your energy caring *for* your child, and not really... doing things *with* your child along. I just hope to meet mroe and more other likeminded mama friends with kiddos for my children to play with as I am in this city longer and longer and learn the language.....


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## Periwinkle

Spunky that's a good question. I personally don't equate "world without boundaries" -- or, and I hope I don't get flamed for this, a TCS way of parenting where the kids make nearly all decisions for themselves -- to CC.

So I did put limits on what my dd and ds could do, not because I feared for their safety, but for example, because it wasn't appropriate for them to play with the houseplants or empty a box of Ziploc baggies all over the floor LOL or play with my pocketbook or whatever. In other words, I'm still in charge and while I try to have our environment be baby and later toddler friendly, there are just some things I don't want them into (and I'm not even going to get into lamp plugs and VCR buttons!). Another thing is try to go outside as much as possible. This is a much more natural environment for kids to explore at will I think... and fewer boundaries (and potential sources of conflict too).


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## MisfitMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *May May*
I'd love for you to elaborate on your thoughts on this matter. I, too, am loyally devoted to CC first, but find that Waldorf -- as far as an educational environment, as well as some of the Anthroposophical guidelines for living -- is the best choice out there for school/community/etc. I do not know any CCers with older children in my area. (My children are ten and four.)

Thanks.

May May,

I don't know how well I can elaborate on my thoughts on Waldorf vs. CC. It's hard for me to articulate. But I'll try. . . I think most of my issues are with the idea of school in general. (I don't like it.) But as far as Waldorf, I think that they sort of get so into the "developmental stages" of childhood, that they sort of get this idea that children are these fragile little flowers, or little alien beings or something. . . I know it makes no sense. I guess what I mean is, that after reading TCC, it just struck me how Waldorf teachers are always singing everything to the kids, and half the time faking British accents, and doing everything softly and fairy-like, and having them use paper and art supplies that adults would never use. . . and it all just seemed so ridiculous suddenly, to treat children *so* differently than we treat adults, and then I think about how I feel like I have such a respectful relationship with my ds, and so much of that, to me, has to do with the fact that I really see him as so capable and adult-like in many ways. . . and it seems a little bit insulting, I think, to think of him being taken from this life we have with him, which feels real, and put into this "other-world."

That being said, I've been doing a lot of thinking about it lately, and I think that I am going to start incorporating more Waldorf-y ideas into our life, and I think I'm back to thinking that if we have to send ds to any school at all, it will probably be Waldorf (I was thinking of an open school (public) before, but I just don't think I can deal with government-run schools in any capacity anymore.)

Well, does anyone else have anything to say on the subject? I love the community of the Waldorf schools, and the storytelling and the woodworking and music. Those are my favorite parts.

MisfitMama


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## MisfitMama

Spunky, etc.,

My ds is 23 mo. I have found, since about a year ago, that the best way to deal with life is to leave the house every day by 10:00 a.m.. Of course this doesn't *always* work, but for us it has been the best way, because we have no yard, and I find that my patience leaves me by noon if we stay home, and I find that our relationship can stay in harmony if we just get out and do things (of course this is also good for me.) We meet people for walks, go to parks and AP events (playgroups, fiber arts group, outings, etc.) run occasional errands, go to relatives' houses. . . whatever. Just to get out and get some air and socialize, too, whenever we can.

I think that babies sense that we are "checking out" when we are on the computer. I try to limit it's use to only when ds is asleep (like right now) - that is another way to prevent friction in our relationship. I try not to think of ds as needing my undivided attention, but just needing to be around *someone* who is not completely checked out.

As far as messes go. . . I try to keep everything out of ds's sight and/or reach that I don't want him to mess with. Easier said than done, I know. . . but this also helps keep our relationship harmonious.

So, in a nutshell - my answers to everything thus far are:

1) go outside!
2) socialize!
3) keep busy with tasks that keep you physically busy and thus interesting to watch or help (like laundry, cooking, drawing, vacuuming, cleaning, etc.) and be willing to flit from one task to another at the drop of a hat. I also do well talking on the phone *while* I race from one end of the apartment to the other, putting things away, or whatever (with or without my ds on my back or hip.)
4) exercise (preferrably by walking and carrying ds)
5) stay off the computer

Oh, and most importantly. . .

6) keep a sense of humor!

MisfitMama


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## yaM yaM

MisfitMama, you have a very interesting view on the Waldorf 'environment' and I will have to contemplate that for a while -- it never occured to me to look at it that way. I've always seen the use of nature-based and spiritual materials and activities in the Waldorf environment as being 'close to nature' and 'simple' and, therefore, closer to CC than any other *civilized* school out there.

But.....

I have to point out _one_ area where I see your point _exactly_ --

That would be the whole Waldorf approach to discipline, which I have *never* been ok with. They're just way too wishy-washy and passive in response to the (sometimes) need to be a little more authoritarian/assertive. It's too dusty knome-ish, to borrow a concept of theirs...







:LOL


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## spunky

I can't believe I'm saying this but I am so glad to hear that other people are going through this too. When I go to other people's houses there is nothing on the floor. No trash, no pans perhaps a few toys.
We have gotten very active going to story times, play dates etc. but I don't feel like I'm living in a tribe. None of it relates to life without babies. I suppose I just wait for him to get a little older (3 maybe) when he can play on his own a bit more and reading quietly is a good example.
As I am writing this there is a tremendous thunderstorm with some flash flooding outside. I am really looking forward to gardening. Does anyone have experience with gardening with a 13 month old?

I'm planning on homeschooling but appreciate reading the philosophies of Montessori, Waldorf and any other educational/development thinker. If I did send my child to school it probably would be Waldorf (if there was one around here.) I like their focus on doing things with your hands, outside and the sense of community. I have a lot more reading to do. I just started Natural Childhood by John Thomson. I frankly haven't thought much about discipline besides trying to say "that stays there" or "that's just for mama" instead of NO. Does anybody have any tips or suggested reading?


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## Amoreena

Just popping in to mention there is a yahoo group for socal TCCers (it's a spectrum, ya know, no need to be a "perfect" TCCer, which doesn't really exist unless you're Yequena ;-) ) ... link in my sig.

I read the book in the first months of my first son's life, then again a year or two later, very much want to read again. Has influenced me greatly, not to say I totally live the life (we live in the U.S., after all), but I get much inspiration and perspective and food for thought from the book and the concept and the big listserv, of which I've been a member for several years. I started the socal TCC group in an effort to find folks in the region who might like getting together now and then with others who are influenced by the book/concepts.

If you request membership in the group, please mention that you saw the link in MDC.

Quasi-tribally yours...


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## MisfitMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *May May*
MisfitMama, you have a very interesting view on the Waldorf 'environment' and I will have to contemplate that for a while

Well. . . I would love to hear *other* people's interpretations - I'd love to be talked out of my view, in fact.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *May May*
I have to point out _one_ area where I see your point _exactly_ --

That would be the whole Waldorf approach to discipline, which I have *never* been ok with. They're just way too wishy-washy and passive in response to the (sometimes) need to be a little more authoritarian/assertive. It's too dusty knome-ish, to borrow a concept of theirs...







:LOL









Woah. . . I wasn't thinking about discipline at all in my post, but maybe that is what they are doing with their singing and all that. . . I guess that when you use words like authoritarian, it gives me shivers down my spine. . . please *do* elaborate! I don't know that I actually have any problem at all with their "discipline" - I'm sure it's much better than most schools' policies. I was there once, observing, while a kindergartner had a huge spazzing tantrum - running around the room and hiding under various pieces of furniture, and shouting. . . their approach was to just "let her be," I guess. . . she clearly was too hysterical to be approached. I think that that worked out just fine. Nobody shamed her, nobody *ignored* her. . . she just re-joined when she was done with the fit. I can't remember what it was about. Anyway, that's my only experience with their "discipline." Does anyone know more about it?

What I like about "open schools" more than Waldorf, is there is a lot more autonomy and when I used to go to one, we could work on whatever projects we wanted, whenever we wanted (most of the time). Waldorf definitely doesn't allow for this (nor do conventional schools). That is one thing I don't like at all.

MisfitMama


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## MisfitMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nankilicious*

CC-wise, what I am struggling with lately actually doesnt have anything to do with parenting. I am really grappling with the whole non-coercion, non-judgement, acceptance and tolerance aspect, in regards to my family members...like my mom, sister, and brother.

Nankilicious,

I am working on the exact same thing! I am happy to report that I think I am finally making some real progress here. What are you doing whilst you struggle? I'm doing yoga, talking to a "life coach", reading a really good book called _No Ordinary Moments_ (easy to read, too.), and I'm about to splurge on a massage.

It sounds like you have a good handle on the thing with your mom. My mom is a nutcase, and I have really finally made peace with the fact that the way she chooses to live her life is the way she chooses to live her life! I used to think I could "make her see," but I have finally realized that she doesn't *want* to see. Oh, another fabulous book that really helped me was _CoDependent No More_. You don't have to be with an alcoholic to read it -- I had always thought you did, so I didn't read it for years. Boy, was I sorry I'd waited too long.

Anyway, I just wanted you to know I know what it's like to be struggling with those things, too. I chip away at it all little by little, and I feel freer and freer as I go. I am so grateful for all the thinking I have been able to do on the subject, because of thoughts I've had regarding non-coercion and TCC.

MisfitMama


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## yaM yaM

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MisfitMama*
Woah. . . I wasn't thinking about discipline at all in my post, but maybe that is what they are doing with their singing and all that. . . I guess that when you use words like authoritarian, it gives me shivers down my spine. . . please *do* elaborate!

Hi MisfitMama...

In response to your question, and just to give you a little background, I've been involved with many aspects of Waldorf education/living for the last twelve years, including: employment by our local private Waldorf school for one year as an aftercare teacher, studying Anthroposophical philosophy for twelve years, Waldorf-inspired unschooling my own children for three years, and a parent to my two birth-children and one stepchild attending the school for many years. In that time I've been able to form a really clear view of both my appreciation for and my boundaries in relation to Waldorf education.

What I've noticed in relation to the discipline issue is that the teachers are (often times) too soft in their response to serious discipline issues, IMO. I have witnessed several situations over the years at our school in which there was a child behaving violently or aggressively toward other children. To give you a specific example, there was one boy who had been born to a drug-addicted mother and, therefore, experienced withdrawl symptoms at birth as well as fetal-alcohol syndrome and many other complications. He was adopted by a loving, older, wealthy couple when he was a few months old -- after his birth-mother had abandoned him. This boy attended the Waldorf school because his adoptive parents were trying to give him a better life than where he had come from. Well, his problems apparently extended into his childhood in many ways, because as a seven y/o child he was behaving violently towards others. He would get on top of the climbing structure and wait for his classmates to walk by beneath him so that he could drop large rocks on their heads over the edge. This was a daily occurrence. He would also throw rocks and sticks at children and kick them very hard. It so happens that I was teaching aftercare at the school during this time, and I was responsible for the care of grades one through three with no adult assistance. There were approximately ten children in each grade. The time and attention needed to redirect this boy's attention/behaviour was a chronic compromise to the other children's general needs....

It took _years_, and several families removing their children from the school due to safety concerns for the school to finally realize that we could, unfortunately, not accommodate this child. In the meantime, every time I would ask for guidance as to what I should *do* in response to this boy's behaviour, the staff committee would have some vague, too-temporary answer like "put him in time-out" which technically meant that he was supposed to sit on a bench by himself... That would never happen. The boy would not sit on the bench, and if I was able to get him to stay there for even a minute, he would look for any opportunity to hurt someone if they got too close to him. Plus, as soon as his time-out ended he'd be back to hurting others within minutes. Etc, etc, etc....

Believe it or not, there have been several situations similar to this one at the school, and the general, common response from the teachers and staff is to under-react/not respond.

I guess I think there are certain situations where an adult does need to be firm about what is acceptable behaviour. Isn't that what Jean Liedloff talked about -- where the adults would make it very clear to the children what was culturally appropriate for the Yaquenas? Sometimes they would *make it clear* by modeling the appropriate behaviour, and other times, when needed, they would directly and swiftly address a child's behaviour.

And yes, btw, the singing in Waldorf classrooms is designed to be a method of covert influence to affect the childrens' behaviour, albeit for the better.


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## mollyeilis

I have a question.

How do you continuum parents feel about the way most parents talk to their children in third person?

In other words..."give mommy the toy", "mommy needs you to do xyz right now", "mommy loves you", and so on.

It drives my ears crazy. I can't do it. I haven't done it except for one mess-up, and even that involved my NAME, not my title.

Does this conversation have any place in continuum discussion? It has no place elsewhere I've found.

But I can't imagine a Yequana mother saying to her child a phrase like that, using her title, or anything other than I. As in "I need you to grate the cassava now" or "please give the big knife to me, because I need it", etc.

It's just not natural, at least not for me.

And does anyone else think that the constant referring to yourself by the title ONLY your child gets to call you is a cause for children not really realizing their mothers are people and not just mothers? I called my mom by her name from 4 to about 29 (at which point I reverted back to "mom" b/c of her health issues that scared me), and I was always close friends with her, along with following her rules. I could see three dimensions of her, rather than how I saw my friends treating their mothers, and I've always wondered if it's b/c she used the Montessori phrasing of "*I need* you to do this now" and let me use her name, rather than her title.

Anyone else want to talk about this?


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## Thursday Girl

signing up. See Ya' Soon

Courtney


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## sphinx

Hi this thread is really interesting to me, I often think about how everything would be so different if we were living in nature - why in the modern world we pay too much doting attention to our kids...Because I have no garden to tend, no chickens to feed, no real work to do that is related to my immediate survival, I am living this sort of fake, contrived life and I think my baby can feel it. I think he is biologically programmed for a different experience than modern society can provide, which is for instance why I wear him. I wonder if that is why he cried for 5 months straight. When it comes to my 5 year old dd too it is hard to nurture her development without "trying"because theoretically we could leave the house in the morning, eat at restaurants, ride around buses and trams and metros all day and never have to relate to the earth or do our own work. Since we have no tribe, no expectations from others placed on us daily, we can just live in our heads all day... kwim? We have to create the value in our own lives and a task-oriented rhythm for ourselves.

What I like about Waldorf is the reverence for life, spirit & nature, which are part of the essence of any society that is close to the earth, the importance of daily work and the respect for children's creative development. I think Waldorf assumes children are smart, strong and capable. The sweet soft tones and singing and tiptoeing around kids, I think, seem to be more about the reverence for their play and their developing minds. I think kids should be treated differently than adults - moving into adulthood with almost invisible guidance, preparing them as they take on more and more complicated and involved jobs and roles in their community. Since we do not have this normal community experience, i love how Waldorf aspires to it.

But the discipline issue is definitely a problem. I have seen bullies abound ni Waldorf environements. I want to write more but must go deal with baby poo.


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## MisfitMama

May May,

Oh, you know a lot more about Waldorf than *me*! Do you think that these discipline problems are a part of all of the schools, or just one specific school? I know that sometimes I hear people bash Waldorf because "the school didn't do anything about ______," but I think in many cases, it's a problem with *that particular school*. Of course, how are you going to know ahead of time? Maybe since more and more Waldorf schools are opening up, they will do a better job of sharing information and problems with one another.

Yeah. . . Someone on the main list once posted about a kid going nuts and hitting everyone in the family, or something, and Jean Liedloff actually recommended that they lock her in a room until she calmed down! That was her idea of how the Yequana would handle such a child. It seemed a bit extreme, and I don't think the person took JL's advice, but it just goes to show you how differently people can view a situation. From some of the reading I've done, I think that sometimes people think that Waldorf/anthroposophy can cure *anything,* but it seems not to be the case. . . it seems that that kid you are talking about probably had not only a totally screwed up continuum, but also probably some bio-chemical stuff going on that tribal societies wouldn't have had to deal with!

As far as the thing someone else just brought up about speaking in 3rd person. . . (Sorry, I haven't got your name on the screen anymore) . . . it used to drive me nuts, too, until someone pointed out that they thought it was kind of a universal thing. I don't know if it really is, but I was relieved to be able to "let go" of my annoyance! Now I even do it myself. I kind of like it because then people know what you want to be called - for instance, my parents were always saying to ds, "Where's your mom?" or whatever, and I **hate** to be called "mom." Now they know I like to be called Mama. Also, ds has known my first name for a very long time, and he calls me by it on occasion, so it's not like he doesn't know. He also calls me by various nicknames that my husband calls me, too. Pretty cute.

MisfitMama


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## yaM yaM

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MisfitMama*
From some of the reading I've done, I think that sometimes people think that Waldorf/anthroposophy can cure *anything,* but it seems not to be the case. . . it seems that that kid you are talking about probably had not only a totally screwed up continuum, but also probably some bio-chemical stuff going on that tribal societies wouldn't have had to deal with!


MisfitMama, what you said above is the crux of the issue when it comes to real life application of CC concepts or anthroposophical concepts. Just like we need to adapt tribal wisdom, somewhat, to suit our very _different_ world here, we also have that need with Rudolf Steiner's teachings. Both the Yaquenas and Rudolf Steiner live/lived in very different realities than we do in the 'modern' world. There are many factors that neither of them has had to deal with due to their respective realities.

Yes, as Sphinx mentioned, when it comes to discipline in Waldorf classrooms, bullies have a field day. Unfortunately, it is not limited to a particular Waldorf school/town/community/etc. as Waldorf principles are applied universally in Waldorf education environments. So their approach in discipline is one of general passivity which is highly contrary to the approach necessary to control aggressive behaviour.

One of the downfalls of Waldorf schools, I've noticed, is that they do not try to accommodate for the needs of a different culture than that which Steiner was familiar with and prescribing methods for. Steiner never had to navigate through concerns of the media's impression on the children he was influencing, for example, which, like it or not, are surrounding and penetrating our children's lives even if they *don't watch TV* through indirect sources such as peers.

That said, I have found that 'invisible guidance' (Waldorf approach), as Sphinx mentioned, is highly successful with healthy children who've been raised close to nature and with reverence.

Gotta go tend to family....

~~~~~~~~~
MisfitMama, that's pretty cute about the nicknames


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## JohnnysGirl

Just wondering how many other un-schoolers observing this thread?







:


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## yaM yaM

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Butterflymom*
Just wondering how many other un-schoolers observing this thread?







:


Hi there, Butterflymom.
We are currently a Waldorf school family, as discussed above, however I unschooled my children for three years, a few years back. We were also more CC at that time, too, because we were living on ten acres, way far out in the desert with a wash running through it, ancient cacti, and many rattlesnakes







.
We were living much closer to nature at that time....

I found it a wonderful experience and think unschooling and CCing are very compatible.


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## Thursday Girl

can someone please tell me what un-schooling is.

Courtney


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## flowers

Read the book a few years back before I was pregnant and did take it as more of an antropological paper. In this way I have found it hard to recommend to people because of its style.

Most of what she said resonated with me strongly. I didn't get to read all of this thread (so long!) so I don't know if this has already been mentioned....but I like the story about the man who comes from the city to live with his brother and his family. It is a story about work ethic and in the end it ends up the man turns out to be a fabulous gardner/farmer but it took him a while to actually help around the place because he was scarred by an unhealthy work ethic. Kind of like he felt like he had to work and work sucked (excuse me) and was a huge chore he would never want to do. (reminds me of everyone i know!) Anyways, the moral of the moral of the story is that once freed from the idea of "having" to work everyone would end up contributing through some sort of work.
This has always stuck with me and she talks about kids not being forced into chores but by nature kids copy adults so let them run freely in between playing and helping out...this way they wont resist work so much.

I just remember so many saturdays where we could not go outside and play until our chores were done and how miserable the whole experience was. We are trying to create a healthier attitude towards contributing to family life.


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## musingmama

hey everyone, I am joining a little late, I always read some posts on this thread here and there as I had time, never got around to posting til now! I read TCC while pg and while ds was a few months old...

Now, steffen is almost two years old already! He has alwasy been a high spirited child, always needed to stay moving literally (hated the sling, btw), got bored inside alot, so we have always been outdoors alot, which I enjoy. TCC really made a lot of things click inside my head about our relationship--- like treating him w/respect, always letting him help as he can and when he wants to, trusting that he naturally wants to be part of his world, and now that he is a toddler I really see a lot of the time and patience I took paying off. He listens pretty well, and I just talk with him in the tone as i would anyone (of course he has toddler moments when he wants to see what happens if he doesnt listen etc), and he naturally wants to help with everyday things- putting laundry in the w/d, cooking (he has to make all the salads- the salad spinner must be the greates toddler toy ever







), sweep, wash hands, wipe the tables, etc etc....
that being said, our house is always a complete wreck! It has been getting better, but laundry just sits in piles, never getting folded and put away, clutter, toys and books strewn everywhere.... I have never been a neat freak so this doesnt really bother me, time to myself is more important than being supertidy. maybe it will get easier as he gets older.
someone asked what yer day is like--
We;ve gotten into a pretty good groove, I let him go to sleep and get up when he chooses(which is usually 10-1130 pm- 9-10am) then I make some breakfast, while he plays , then he cant wait to go outside, so we usually walk around our yard and park next to our house, throw rocks in the creek in our back yard, go to the playground in back of our yard, or we drive or take the stroller for a walk to somewhere like the grocery store, another park or playground, lake in the summer, library, zoo, etc. then around 4 hrs after he's woken up, I've found is a good time to come home and get something ready for lunch- within the past couple of months, he has become able to play outside on our large patios and close by yard with balls, trucks, sand table, sticks, etc as i do stuff inside (we haev large windows so i can keep an eye on him) I warm up leftovers or make something quick, change the laundry, check something on the internet- come check into mdc, etc- then he'll come in on his on accord and shut the door , and we'll take off his shoes and jacket and eat some lunch and he'll watch some of a dvd like the teletubbies (he loves them dont ask me why!), then I may have to mention "nap" but often he'll declare "AP!" and come to me to carry him back to bed, or he'll walk back to the bedroom, and take a 2 hr nap or so.....(he stirs a couple or more times for nursing- and he still isnt sleeping thru the night- we cosleep)
then after his nap he is up for the marathon- about an 8 hr stretch or so. We'll have a snack when he gets up, he'll play inside and then want to go out for an adventure.... this changes day to day, what we do, - lately he has been obsessed with buses so we'll walk up to my dh's busstop when he gets home from work and meet him, which steffen finds very esciting, then we'll take a long walk back. then usually I will start dinner as dh and ds play outside, sometimes they will go somewhere, sometimes we all go somewhere later on- to do whatever errand needs doing, or to the mall







so he can run around , or to the library, or anywhere else we can think of open at night- steffen has always needed to be around changing stimulation, so we're pretty active....
luckily spring is here, so we will have more light to be outside later. Last year he loved gardening , and this year we have a much bigger yard, so I am excited to garden together again, and he loves to play with water, so that is nice for the summer.
I found that things got a lot easier the last few months as he has proven to be more capable and responsible and I give him more responsibilites, and also it got a lot easier once we moved to a safer yard environment-- last summer our front steps opened up to shared driveway, and next to a very busy road, so i had to hover more than i liked. This year he can play safely in the yard and patios. That really improved his general happiness.
He has always been a daredevil and I have to spot him pretty closely- I find that it is when I DONT expect him to fall that he does (not like in TCC where she says that it is when we do expect him to fall that he does) so that part for me hasnt held true. Even though I trust him to do something carefully, he sometimes does something with no fear at all, and he just hasnt been physically able to do it. He was going down the huge big kids slides at 6 months alone! But trust comes into play with other areas. LIke I let him play with pennies and small things all the time, and he's never shown me any danger for swallowing them...

I have also noticed that he suddenly will become more clingy to me when dh is home, and will come to me and get me to play with him when i am busy with something whereas during the day he will just be busy with me... its strange I havent been able to put my finger on the dynamics of that one. DH has always really closely played with him when he is home b/c he hasnt seen him all day, whereas I am with him 24-7 so we each have some space sometimes...... don't know if that makes sense to anyone....
i have found a lot of great wisdom in TCC, I just think that every kid is different so not all of it holds true with everything.

whew!







I sure have rambled on long enough! theres so much to talk about with this topic!!!!


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## EnviroBecca

I don't have time to catch up w/the whole thread, but I read the last 2 pages. I've found so far (baby is approaching 4 months) that the ideas I took from CC are working out pretty well.

For example, I wanted a kid who was comfortable in social/public settings, including those not designed specifically for children. I started taking him out on errands, to church, and to Brownie meetings (I'm a leader) when he was 10 days old. I try to go places we can walk or take public transit to, so that I can hold him in the sling instead of isolating him in the carseat. I was willing to reduce the outings if my baby seemed very uncomfortable during them, but he's been just fine. In fact, since about 7 weeks he's been at his happiest in a big group of people!







90% of the time he's the kind of baby Liedloff describes: alertly watching what people are doing, relatively calm w/soft muscle tone, occasionally making sounds and gestures that seem like approximations of the behaviors he's observing.

I'm back to work now, and he goes to a home daycare where he's the only young baby, so he's mixing w/other ages as he would in a tribe. One reason we chose this place is that, although there are a lot of toys, it isn't a "house where the living room is converted into a daycare center"; it's a "house where kids play"--it's still a living room, w/evidence of the family's daily life all around, and we feel that's more enriching than a baby-oriented environment.

We don't use third person in talking about him or ourselves, because we want him to learn to speak English correctly. We figure that referring to each other as Mama and Daddy when we are talking to the baby will be adequate to teach him what to call us. Both aspects of this worked for me, according to my parents.


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## Thursday Girl

I liked the book, but like others was shocked when I got to her views on homosexuality.

I didn't read this book until recently so didn't do all of the stuff. But i find that I did most of it most of the time, just b/c that felt like what I should be doing. I did listen to other people occasionally and reverted back to what felt right. ( did i post this here before?)

anyways as for third person, yes I did call myslef "mommy" Mostly b/c when Jewely was younger DH worked all the time and I was afraid she wouldn't know what to call me. Silly i know, but hey? we all do strange things. Now I am slowly switching to "I". B/c well it is a little starnge.'

Courtney


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## orangebird

I just read this whole thread, whew! I had heard about TCC but I have never read the book and really didn't know what it was, I had just heard the term, YK? Interestingly, I have been basically having this philosophy all this time and didn't even know there was a name for it. I always flinched when friends associated me with "AP" but couldn't put my finger why it would bother me as "AP" was the closest (as far as labels go) that I could think of to describe our general behavior and attitudes with the kids. It was never a word I would use myself, I hate labeling like that and plus I didn't really like classifying myself as AP even though there is nothing wrong with it, I just didn't feel it was quite accurate. Sure, we follow some of the typical AP patterns, but there was something more to the way our family works than ever quite expressed on AP threads and all that. So after reading this whole thread I just ordered myself a copy of TCC.

I always thought I did the things I do with my kids partly out of laziness and partly out of blind trust in them. I could never quite explain to people why we weren't as concerned as everyone else as the children explored, climbed, put rocks and pennies in their mouths, the little things that to me seemed OK, but to others seemed horrifying. We never do the baby food thing, just expect the children at some point to start eating the food the rest of the family is eating. We don't spoon feed them, we let them have it when they want it. We don't hover over them, they are free to roam and fall and expirament. Friends have watched on in horror sometimes as I refused to flinch when my one year old wanted to climb the concrete steps. I have always had a strong aversion to all those children's activities and playgroups and things like that. And I don't generally get down on the floor and "play" with my kids. They are free to hang around me while I do my thing and they can help or watch or whatever, but I don't stop my day to play with them. We have always gotten them real toys, like a real working kid sized broom and dustpan, that kind of thing, so they can actually use it. Not a plastic fake vacuum with popping balls, YK? I don't initiate their play, I just expect them to find things to keep themselves entertained. If they are having a hard time and are bored I let them know how they can help me. Compared to all the other parenting styles out there I just thought I was a bad mom! LOL, not really a bad mom, but not a "playful" one, IYKWIM. Borderline irresponsible in how I don't hover and keep them away from everything. My two year old can play with the pins while I (Ha! Rarely) sew, or he can handle the thumbtacks while I am using them to put a sheet up on the wall, that kind of thing. These are just examples, but the whole thing totally resonates. I can't wait to read the book. I also ordered a couple of the other ones mentioned in this thread, OBO, and another one (all used!). I totally dig the ideas expressed so far in this thread, they make total sense to me and are kinda how I have thought but never articulated. I am so glad there are others who understand and that I am not a total nut. I have always been different and people think I am nutty, it's nice there is a community that understands this. I can'[t wait to get my books now. Thanks everyone for this great discussion.


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## Ellien C

Welcome, Mara.

It sounds like you are an awesome Mom.

There is also a website and listserv if you are interested.

http://www.continuum-concept.org/


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## JohnnysGirl

Mara, you definatly sound like a very awesome, very normal human mama!









I love that the weather has been getting warm enough in Finland to take my son out of the house for most of the day so we can frolick in the park and meet other babe/mom duos and enjoy ourselves in the sunshine---I'm actually liking the company of one or two of the frequenting moms at the playground, and feeling less isolated. Winter was so long.....


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## spunky

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MisfitMama*
May May,

Someone on the main list once posted about a kid going nuts and hitting everyone in the family, or something, and Jean Liedloff actually recommended that they lock her in a room until she calmed down! That was her idea of how the Yequana would handle such a child. It seemed a bit extreme

I think I read in Meredith Small's second book, Kids, that not every culture was great at every stage. Somewhere from birth to grown up was a phase that got shamed, attacked or dealt with violently. This probably is the way the Yequana would deal with it. If the child is not conforming then it must be shunned until it does. I am not saying it is the way I do or will deal with my baby; just that at some point we all do show them how to fit in. It isn't always easy or nice.
What would be anyone's options for dealing with a child who was being malicious enough to plan out to climb to the top of the monkey bars and throw rocks at unsuspecting playmates. Or an older sibling who liked the attention s/he gets from hitting the new baby. What if talking nicely didn't work? And your home alone.

If my son picks up a knife, I say "Give that back to me, please." If he reaches for my new, expensive glasses on my face, I say "Those are just for Mama," and take his hand away. I think it just depends on the situation how I phrase things to him. I have heard people who are silly about using the third person and it bugs me too; it seems kin to baby talk.


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## Ellien C

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spunky*
This probably is the way the Yequana would deal with it. If the child is not conforming then it must be shunned until it does. .

I don't think so. There is a section in the book where a man who has been kind of westernized comes back to live with his tribe. He won't work at all. But the chief CONTINUES to provide for him for like 2 years. The guy doesn't do a lick of work (by our standards). Eventually the man decides on his own that he would like to farm for his own family and he turns out to be a very able and competent farmer. See Flower's post above.

The remarkable part here is that they DIDN'T shame him or coerce him to fit in. They accepted his as he was. What does shunning teach? That you are not worthy unless you are XX or XX happens. But we're talking about "a return to happiness lost." People who KNOW they are complete and worthy just because they are. I can't imagine the Yequana would do anything shunning or shaming to a child. That's the whole point about knowing that children are innately social. They WANT to follow the lead of their tribe-mates.

Just to give a diffferent perspective:

When my DD (2) picks up a knife, I *might* show her how to hold it by the handle or I might get her a smaller knife. I might invite her to help me chop something. Or, I might not say anything.

When my DD tries to pick my glasses off my face, I *might* say be gentle, very fragile, but it would depend on what she did with them. Now when I am lying on the floor, I can give her my glasses and ask her to put them in a safe place on the table. She always complies without bending them. They aren't a forbidden fruit and she knows mama trusts her to handle them safely.


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## orangebird

OK, I finally read the book the other day. It was good, not as good as I was anticipating, but good. I think I thought it would be longer and deeper. But anyway, I totally agree with most of the conclusions and it was interesting how most of that stuff was intuitive for me when I had my first child 12 years ago. I also read the Our Babies Ourselves, that was good too, but I was hoping to learn something new. I will gladly add them to our library.

And just so everyone knows, the Sears book based on the Continuum Concept was just a couple bucks so I ordered that one too. It sucked so bad!!!! It didn't seem based on the concept at all, I am unsure how he got away with titling it and marketing it that way. It had vague suggestions of attatchment parenting but was generally awful. How to pick out good bouncy chairs and highchairs?? Good mobiles for the crib??? Lots of developmental stuff about baby laying and looking at stuff in it's crib? Use a cradle for the first few months. It just goes on and on. Really bizarre. So anyway, don't buy it!!! I was just curious, and since it was just a couple more bucks to my order I got it. I don't know what to do with it. I don't want to give it away because it has such horrible advice and I don't want to sell it and pass it on to someone unsuspecting. And I don't want to keep it in my library. It is just really bad. It is from the 80's, I don't know if he was just trying too hard to be PC for the times or what, but it is even more mainstream than his The Baby Book. I am still surprised he named it "Creative Parenting, how to use the continuum concept to raise children sucessfully from birth to adolescence." It never really mentions in-arms, it talks about different kinds of carriers you can buy but doesn't really talk about the importance of actually carrying the baby. It mentions it more in passing. But then it talks about co-sleeping as if it might be dangerous and gives advice about cradles and decorating cribs.









I too am so happy about the weather changing. We will be cleaning the back yard up soon so we can let the 3 year old loose out there. We installed a window facing the yard from the laundry room, before that the only window that faced out there was from the children's room. So now he can be set free. It is going to be a great summer.


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## Angierae

Finally finding you all! Read the book 3 years ago and loved it. I try hard to incorporate the ideas but I do find it a struggle. Too often I feel like attachment style parenting in the industrialized world leads quickly to child-centered living. So I am so glad you all are here!

I took my 1st daughter to work with me as a baby, and she and I both loved it, but it got too complicated, too much of a battle. Now I stay home. We like to be social but it seems like I am always going to child groups and classes, while my own interets slowly fade away. My girls would love to do "grown up" things with me, but often they are not welcome.

Is it just me? Where do you find the balance with the modern lifestyle?


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## Periwinkle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Angierae*
Too often I feel like attachment style parenting in the industrialized world leads quickly to child-centered living. // 1Is it just me? Where do you find the balance with the modern lifestyle?









I think I know what you mean, even though I wouldn't use the term "child centered" b.c I feel being child-centered is o.k. up to a point. But recently I've been realizing that being all about the kids 100% of the time is a really, really bad way to parent due to neglecting oneself, ones friends, ones hobbies/work/church/etc., and especially one's relationship with a spouse or partner. That is just so unhealthy. It's possible to be AP and not go 3 days without showering and have a stack of dishes a mile high "because the kids need me so much" (and obviously I don't mean when they're sick or something, just standard, business as usual occurence). I consider myself to be AP, but I've noticed that my willingness to set boundaries of what I am and am not willing to put up with (kids' behavior is just the start) sets me apart from a couple of AP moms I know whose lives are completely wrapped up in their kids' _wants_. It is interesting to me that no AP author I've read advocates doing this, but AP is definitely used as an excuse for avoiding other important (or formerly important







) aspects of one's life.


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## mandalamama

i just finished the book and i LOVE, love, love it!







i'm an amateur sociologist so i love reading stuff like this all the time anyway. i was struck by how much of this stuff is intuitive, like, i must be in touch with my own continuum because i've done so much of this stuff with my step-kids, foster kid, my baby, and all the children i've ever cared for!! i believe that my job is to care for a child while i go about my daily business, and i love including a child in everything i do. it's so much fun to talk to Willow while i wash dishes! i give her a clean towel and a bowl and she "dries" them :LOL i figure when it's her turn to help out, she'll already have all that experience and it'll just be natural and part of her world.

sometimes i end up being child-centered, especially if i'm feeling sad, i just want to be with Willow and enjoy her company. i'll get down on the floor with her and play with her toys, she loves to join in. but most of the time i'm doing my own thing, and that's when she's happiest. like, i'll be working on a painting or crafts project, i bring it near her and work on it, i hand her safe things to touch like a huge, clean paintbrush, it's lovely that she's part of my work.

the one thing i need to work on, and so does my husband, is how we react to her bumps and falls. our first instinct is to go overboard, "oh poor baby!" and make a big deal when she cries. i have to force myself to treat it as normal as it really is, "oops, fall down go boom!" and laugh ... and then she stops crying and laughs, too. i know that falling is a huge part of learning to be upright! and she'll be so much better off in the long run if i don't fuss about protecting her from her own life.


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## Amoreena

Just chiming in that I've read the book, twice, am overdue for a reread, have two copies I loan out, and have been a subscriber to the listserv for several years and find it quite valuable. Perhaps INvaluable. Wish the book could be updated and/or edited as I find it not *that well* written, but the message is good. I think a lot of people are put off by the writing quality. But I look past that to the message.


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## EnviroBecca

Last night I was thinking how well the basic ideas of CC have worked out regarding my baby's sleeping habits. We have not done anything resembling "sleep training"; we just allow him to sleep whenever he happens to sleep and show by example that sleeping is the thing to do from late night until morning. He caught on to our schedule by 4 weeks old and by 10 weeks had almost completely stopped waking except for nursing between 11 p.m. and 7 a.m. He does not have to be "put to sleep"; sometime between 9 and 11 p.m. he simply conks out after nursing and stays asleep until he gets hungry. His sleep is disturbed by noise, light, or movement only if it's sudden or extreme; he easily sleeps in the sling as I walk down the street or in a basket on the dining room floor as we walk around him, talk, and play the radio.

Both his grandmothers visited us during his first month of life and were concerned if he wanted to nap in the evening: "Let's try to wake him; otherwise he'll sleep too much now and keep you awake all night." That seemed to make sense logically, but I noticed there was no clear correlation between when/how much he napped and how much he was awake in the middle of the night. If anything, it seemed that when we had interrupted his naps on purpose he would be MORE wakeful and agitated in the night. After the grandmothers left, we began accepting his naps whenever they occurred, simply carrying him up to bed when we went to bed. This has worked out beautifully.









While I think it would be just fine for a baby to be constantly "in arms" for the first several months as Liedloff suggests, I also think there is no harm in his being by himself when he is comfortable w/that. For my baby, there's been a steady increase in the frequency and duration of his willingness to be "out of arms", except for a setback at the beginning: Within a few hours after birth, he could stay asleep if laid down, although he wanted to be held when awake. At 40 hours old he was taken to the NICU for jaundice treatment, and for about 30 hours in there he could nurse and be held only during a 15-minute period every 3 hours. (That was very hard for me too!







) When he was released from NICU to a regular room, w/flexible UV light panel against his back attached to a machine by a cord, and we could hold him again...he needed to be held all the time. Even when he was deeply asleep, if he was laid down for a moment he would gasp and fling out his little hands until he touched warm flesh. He needed to heal from being alone too much.







Several days later, he again became comfortable being laid down while sleeping, and several days after that he began to enjoy sitting in his seat while awake if he could see or hear people nearby.

Just a few thoughts from my new perspective as a genuine mother.


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## JohnnysGirl

Good thinking on respecting his daily rythym re: sleep.... newborns need a lot of it, and they aren't meant to do it isolated and alone/in quiet the way adults may prefer to sleep or nap, that's for sure. They may be sleeping but they are still enjoying stimulation from mama (or dad, older sibling) as they are 'in arms' and being worn while a bigger person carries on with their life. That's how their brains are being stimulated during sleeping hours--touch/warmth from mom is very important, as well as being moved all about and hearing noises (family's voices are familiar from the womb and what babe expects to hear on the outside too).









Speaking of sleeping and a CC point of view.... we're having issues with our 21 month old waking up in the middle of the night screaming hysterically, and it escalates to the point where he's throwing himself in the corner of the room and if anyone talks to him, touches him, picks him up, or even approaches him, it just makes his hysteria crecendo to unbearable snotty hoarse-from-screaming messes. He used to wake up a couple times per night with a soft whimper and I'd just breastfeed him and he'd fall asleep easily again, but I've had to (very recently) cut out the nursing (side note: it's because I'm on bedrest for PTL and nursing him triggers very strong and painful contractions, so I'm putting my tandem nursing adventure on hold for just a few weeks until it's not such a dangerous point for his little brother to be born...I figure once I hit 35 weeks I will get out of bed, nurse my buggle, and not worry about baby coming since I don't take 40 weeks to make a full-term baby anyways, 35-36 would have been perfect for DS#1 but he came at 34 weeks, just a few days before his lungs were done, but he was 7 pounds). so he has no familiar method of shaking off whatever it is that makes him wake up in tears, and he just gets out of control. We just wait until he's cried most of the hysterics out, and then we try to engage him in something interesting when he is more receptive, and gradually after a little play to get him out of the 'spell' that was making him act insane, we wait for him to get back to bed and to sleep, and the whole thing takes maybe an hour in the middle of the night. I wonder if it's allll about the no-BFing, or what is bothering him so much. I wish he could tell us.

I wonder how a Yequana would handle such behavior from a toddler.... he doesn't seem soothed by our attentions during these episodes at all, so we mostly leave him alone (but are near enough where he can see us patiently waiting for him to come out of it). I'm conflicted about how to handle this, I hate not getting more physically involved but I'm really unable to these days with how much I really need to be off my feet.


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## EnviroBecca

I wish I had some helpful advice for the buggle.

A friend gave me some Parents magazines from the gift subscription she got at her baby shower, and one of them includes an article on "Nap Do's and Don'ts". According to that, I'm doing things about 80% wrong! :LOL The weird thing about it is that some of their pointers aren't even explained: "Of course, you'll make the room as dark and quiet as possible."


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## PancakeGoddess

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
When we're at the playground, I also say "OK, time to head to the car" and just (slowly) start to walk to the car. I swear I'm not lying when I say 9 times out of 10 they toddle after me when the distance between us gets too far for their liking

My older kids were just like this. I could take them anywhere in public because of this. It was fabulous. I'm sorry to announce that my third child is not like this yet.







: It is a serious pain in the neck. I didn't realize how good I had it. He doesn't run from me, but he also doesn't seem to take any initiative for keeping the distance between us from getting to big. I hope he starts...


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## kamesennin

Hi I don't know if this has been asked before, but how and when do you teach a baby how to spit? I am so interested in this, because it makes so much sense. Also, those of you who do not do baby gates, have you ever had an accident?

Thanks,
Liane


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## Thursday Girl

I taught mine how to spit by brushing teeth. I gave her a toothbrush and i had mine. we brushed together and she naturally tried to imitate me. at first her spitiing was just pursing her lips and blowing air, but slowly she saw that water came out (I was spitting the toothbrush foam) and so then she spit well spit. she still doesn't spit out toothpaste foam, which is why she still uses the baby toothpaste and not the toddler toothpaste. But now she knows how to spit for other things as well. although sometimes she tries to spit on people. oh i guess i started woth "spit it out" when she ate something she wasn't supposed to, like stuff off the floor or dog food which was more common.

Courtney


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## Angierae

Haven't figured out the spitting thing myself--both girls either suck in air or stick their tounge out.

As far as the gates. Mia, now 13 mo, started crawling down the steps at 8 mos. Taught her to go to the top turn around and crawl down backwards. She has slipped once, but just off the bottom two steps. She tried to stand up and walk down when she was watching her big sister do it. No injuries and she didn't try it again. The steps are very close to the kitchen, so when I really wanted her to stay upstairs (while I was cooking) I would push a piece of furniture in front of the opening. I could never get comfortable with her playing downstairs without me down there. Now she has been walking for a couple of months and wants to walk down the stairs forwards, but she is way to short to reach the next step. She stands at the top and hangs one foot over the edge. I remind her to "sit down" and she does it the right way. She is a crazy daredevil however, and I sense she may soon be willing to endure pain to find a faster way down. We will see how that goes. Overall, she is very aware of height and edges and is careful about any kind of step wherever we are. With a gate I would worry that she would never learn about steps and would not be safe anywhere but our house.


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## LauraN

Hi CC Mamas! I'm so excited to find this thread! I'm also on the TCC list and have been learning so much ever since I read the book when DC#2 was born. I think a lot of my instinct was seriously clouded by the way I was raised. I was always AP, but I didn't find my groove until I read TCC and realized I could meet my needs and my kids'. Anyway, I've loved reading this thread.


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## aravinda

I finally got this book through Inter Library Loan. I wonder how many public libraries have this? It would be worth putting in requests so that more people come across it when perusing the shelves. I am certainly going to do so here.

One of the reasons I enjoyed the book so much is that I don't get the feeling the author is trying to tell me what to do. Therefore she doesn't try to make things sound more do-able or more acceptable to her readers. We get to read exactly what she observed and what she thought and process it however we choose.

I find that some of the other parenting books that attempt to convey some of the same principles of trust, reciprocity, respect, etc do so in a much more heavy-handed manner precisely because they try so hard to acknowledge that we can't do these thigs all the time, and generally try to make what they are saying palatable to the reader. As if the goal was to produce a method that we could follow. Sometimes it seems like a dumbed-down version of TCC, to me.

I have lived among tribal families for short stretches and one of the very first things I noticed was that they simply do not order their children. I am neither an anthropologist nor a diamond miner and my interactions with the families were very different. But after reading TCC I could recall many of the qualities Liedloff has observed.


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## yaM yaM

Thanks for sharing, aravinda.

I'd love to hear more of your perspective of the tribe(s) you spent time with.


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## JohnnysGirl

An update in case anyone was curious how things were going with the 'wake up in a complete night-terror-esque-fit even during the days/naps' issue with the buggle.... seems that he just needs a really dependable schedule as far as rest, and as long as he doesn't get behind on sleep (solid 10-11 hours at night + 2-3 hour nap in the day), he's much better... AND interestingly enough, being too warm while sleeping, which results in him waking up all sweaty, also can trigger these episodes. Not that this is necessarily on topic, but I was really confused about how to deal with this whole thing from a CC point of view, since my instinct was to hold him in my arms and let him cry until he was finished so he would feel safety and my stability in my embrace, but he wouldn't let me touch him







so it was just really confusing, the only really confusing thing that has left me without really _knowing_ what to do according to instinct in my mothering journey thusfar.

So that's better... plus I am nursing him again now since I'm 'out of the woods' with the pregnancy, so to speak, carrying around a 6lb.+ baby who will be just fine if born anytime this month, so I don't worry about the contractions that nursing triggers any longer, although it is painful to nurse.







Maybe that's helping him cope with his world and get less frustrated nowadays also....

My son loves to spit but doesn't do a great job--sort of like blowing his nose. He totally gets what I'm trying to get him to do, he just isn't great at it. He's SO careful when it comes to steps and things and I don't worry about him having an accident much, and we've never been anal about babyproofing by any means, but at my in-laws they have very slippery hardwood floors, my son is usually dressed in cotton or wool which makes him really slippery on the floors, and they have a stairway which is fatally dangerous if my son were to fall down towards the basement from the main floor (or down to the main level from the top floor).... they have no baby gates so we've always just been cautious and near him when he's by the stairs. I'm certain that with a new baby about to be born I won't feel as comfortable with this arrangement when we are visiting, with my attention comprimised amongst my two sons, and I will insist that they put a gate on their most dangerous stair-top for when we are visiting. I'm not sure how TCC that is, but.... I'd just feel so nervous with the wide open serious drop right there in the middle of the home with such slippery flooring.....which is a type of thing that wouldn't occur in nature (glossy hardwood floors next to by a very steep wooden staircase leading down) so I have to deal with these modern issues with modern solutions.


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## JohnnysGirl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *May May*
I'd love to hear more of your perspective of the tribe(s) you spent time with.









:


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## pjlioness

See http://www.continuum-concept.org/rea...sexuality.html


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## johub

. _I'm not sure how TCC that is, but.... I'd just feel so nervous with the wide open serious drop right there in the middle of the home with such slippery flooring.....which is a type of thing that wouldn't occur in nature (glossy hardwood floors next to by a very steep wooden staircase leading down) so I have to deal with these modern issues with modern solutions._

Well I think that in addition to taking our childrens abilities and survival instinct into account our own comfort level in trusting it must also be accounted for and I think it is reasonable that we all have lines we draw at which point we arent comfortable with just trusting that everything will be OK.
I trust my kids to climb all over the couches and their low climbing equipment and their kid sized tables and chairs. (my mom just hovers and hates this so much! LOL) But I wouldnt be comfortable letting my 3 year old on the roof or playing by the street.
She mentions in the book that we can only hope to follow this part of the CC so much in modern society.
I dont think such dangers were absent in tribal societies. (anybody ever see pueblos? Families living right on cliff faces).
I do think that I can trust my children to safely navigate their environment for the most part, however, there comes a point where I have to step in too.

I just had an idea. If there was any way to affix the gate 3 steps down or so. The gate is not right there preventing the child from becoming familiar with his boundaries (the top of the stairs) But a fall wouldnt be dangerous.
I would just use the gate and not feel guilty.

p.s. Hi I'm Joline and I just found this thread.
I just read TCC a couple of months ago but this is pretty much how I always parented my oldest (now 13) I have been more protective of my younger 3 as an older mom but I am trying to become more in touch with my older wisdom and confidence.

Her insight about how western parents teach their chldren to run from them was a HUGE lightbulb for me! And I have almost ended the habit in my 21 month old son by simply not chasing him. LOL
Joline


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## corwinegall

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
._ I trust my kids to climb all over the couches and their low climbing equipment and their kid sized tables and chairs. (my mom just hovers and hates this so much! LOL) But I wouldnt be comfortable letting my 3 year old on the roof or playing by the street.

_
_
_
_
I let ds him climb all over the house, he used to sit on top of the fridge, he didn't goof off, he just liked to do it, he's a monkey. Grandma just about had a fit when she heard about that one, lol. Although the other day she commented how dd is so comfortable playing on the floor, she was worried 'cause I kept her in that sling all the time, thought I'd never be able to put her down. I told her that's she's probably comfortable being there because I keep her in the sling a lot and grandma even replied 'hmmm, she's more secure'.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
.
I have been more protective of my younger 3 as an older mom but I am trying to become more in touch with my older wisdom and confidence.

Joline




IKWYM, I do worry that I'm going to hover more over dd because it's been 8 years, I'm already more nervous over things I didn't think twice about with ds._


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## johub

That is so funny! WHy is that?
They say that it is the first time moms who are so nervous!
Not me.
My first baby was a miracle that just took over my life when I was very young.
My next was 10 years later, after 10 years of waiting. All that waiting can make a mama a little more protective maybe.
Joline


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## flowers

my ds just started crawling a few months back and now is crusing around. My mom hated that we slept him in our bed (wanted a playpen or crib JUST for safety). ds did fall once and after that he religiously wakes up from his nap crawls to the edge and calls for me! Also just this week he started climbing out of the bed by himself! 9 mos old!! I am always close by and when I see his attempt I pay close attention in case he does slip (and I dive to keep his head from smacking) but he is pretty good! besides toys and logical babyproofing (cleaning supplies tucked away and precious things that could break tucked away) he has roams the house and i am always impressed.

I think it is important when you read a book or are going by a certain philosphy to blend it into your individual lifestyle. If you look at that shiny wood floor and those steps and feel uncomfortable find a way where you are comfortable but your baby still gets experience (i liked the gate with 3 or 4 stairs left for baby to climb) One of the huge differences between most of our lives and that of tribal lives is community. gramma, big sis, aunties, bros where all around and although their focus was not to protect the baby (or maybe it is at times?) that is what everyone does in the presence of a baby. Now I am home alone in a house and if I have to spend a few moments in the bathroom I do not feel comfortable leaving the front door open which leads to 4 concrete steps kwim? HOwever on the weekends and at night dh and our two roommates come home so I never worry what he is doing because there is always a person somewhere around to guide him if he finds himself in a sticky predicament. many of the people posting in this thread comment on how when they read the book they felt as though they had already been raising their children this way. that is the key...to parent intuitively and find inspiration and guidance from books and philosophies. It can be difficult to live up to the parenting standards of a tribe in the middle of a jungle when you live in suburbia in a single family home on a busy street. try to find some balance.


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## Thursday Girl

well said hillary!!

I have a danger zone inmy house. on of my friends came over and asked if i was afraid Jewely would hurt herself. i said no, and she hasn't. it is dangerous to. a narrow hall with wood on the floor nails and toolboxes in there. something noone in their right this day and age mind would let a child walk through. but i do and I don't worry about it. she has been going through there since she started walking. (knock on wood :LOL )

then along the lines of power of suggestion, not a safety issue but i really view it in the same category. DD has an easel in her room with markers, crayons, and chalk. (the same mother mentioned above who incidently/coincidentaly gives her kids colorwonder arkers) asked(in front of Jewely and her DD) if i was afraid Jewely would color on anything like furniture/walls. i said no I had never thought of it and she had never done it.

well we leave the kids to play to come back in and they both have colored (luckily with the chalk) on the walls, furniture, and door!! DH and i totally view that as a power os suggestion/parent expectation thing. she was given a time out and now she doesn't color on anything else although she does color on the easel frame now, which she never did before.

Courtney

ps someday i am going to read through this whole thread. i had read it to my post but then it started really going and i have missed so much.


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## mollycce

I am mostly a lurker and have only been recently exposed to the continuum concept. I am fairly relaxed with my DS (almost two) and do pretty good with not hovering and with trusting him with things (I do call myself "mama" a lot when I talk to him though!) However, I have a problem when it comes to parks. DS loves to slide and I can't quite bear to let him go up and down the slides by himself without worrying and hovering about him falling off. In particular, this week we were at an older park with a metal slide with not very safe seeming, low rails. I could hardly stand myself with the way I was talking to him as he tried to slide--lots of "I'm worried that you'll fall!" and "be careful" and "remember to be safe on the slide!" and "don't lean over to the side like that" (he kept holding on to one side rail and being dragged onto his stomach as gravity pulled him down, lurching alarmingly near flipping totally off). I even said out loud to him that I literally was feeling myself making him neurotic. Is there a TCC way to deal with rickety slides?!

Molly


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## Spring Sun

We really loved the continuim concept! Both dh and I read it and we are trying to raise Elijah with those principles. I especially like the part where you need to trust your child's intelligence, and know that what you expect of them, they will try to fufill. But I get so worried that elijah will stop breathing while he's sleeping, and then I worry that my worry will cause him to do so. Anyone else get this kind of backward, superstitious thinking? I am really trying to work with it!
Stacey


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## feebeeglee

For Xanga-blogging mamas - I formed a CC blogring. Join, if you wish, here:
http://www.xanga.com/groups/group.aspx?id=1574451


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## gentlebirthmothr

Hi,

I'm new to continuum concept and would love to learn more about this concept. Well, I'm not a wife or mother yet, will be in the future. I'm just a student of the subject now. Thank you.


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## elmama

I haven't read TCC...but this has been such a fascinating thread to read, I definately will pick it up. Ironically, my little ones and i have been staying with my folks for two weeks now and my mom in particular is driving me quite nuts with all of her fears (germs, heights, fast speeds, drop-offs, water). Not only is my three year old somewhat straight jacketed, but i feel judged as a mother for not being more on top of him. I guess the trick is not to let all this judgement get in the way of my critical and clear thinking!

Anyway, all of this gives me lots to think about in terms of how I was raised. Something that comes to mind immediately is how ready I was to rebel as a teenager. I wonder how much of the reckless behavior people attribute to hormones or just a "phase" is really a reaction to the all of the fear and mistrust we are imbued with as little ones...


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## pjlioness

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elmama*
Anyway, all of this gives me lots to think about in terms of how I was raised. Something that comes to mind immediately is how ready I was to rebel as a teenager. I wonder how much of the reckless behavior people attribute to hormones or just a "phase" is really a reaction to the all of the fear and mistrust we are imbued with as little ones...

I do believe you've hit the nail on the head.


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## EnviroBecca

Don't forget the fear and mistrust of teenagers by most of our society! I had a relatively smooth adolescence because of TCC parenting minimizing the idea of teens as a distinct species...but when I did clash w/my parents, it was almost always because they were afraid of my peers and/or weren't trusting me. I will admit that my friends sometimes suggested activities that weren't a good idea, but about 80% of the time I refused to participate; my parents rarely gave me any credit for that but instead would berate me for having been in a place where I even heard the suggestion! I'll also admit that there were times I did things they'd trusted me not to do, but those times were very few, yet whenever I asked permission to go out w/friends they'd say they couldn't trust me. My mother has a very derogatory attitude toward teens and made a lot of snide comments about them before, while, and after my brother and I were teens. I think that contributed to my feeling afraid of teens when I was a kid and then feeling afraid of "teenage behavior" when I saw it among my peers and also feeling crushingly self-conscious about my own urges to act "teenaged" in any way. Now that I'm an adult, there are times when I see teens doing things I think are dumb, but I try really hard to avoid making generalizations about teens because of this. All the teens at my church are very fine people, and I talk to them as people.

Edited to add: Does this mean coming-of-age rituals are not continuum? It's been awhile since I read the book, and I can't remember if the Yequana have any puberty ceremony or if Liedloff says anything about that.


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## elmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca*
. I think that contributed to my feeling afraid of teens when I was a kid and then feeling afraid of "teenage behavior" when I saw it among my peers and also feeling crushingly self-conscious about my own urges to act "teenaged" in any way.

OMG I remember feeling the same way...like I always had to be composed and adult-like. I was pretty good at it but I still got ageism even when I was doing my best to act like the perfect adult! The i felt stupid because all the adults knew I was just a little kid trying to act grown up. How messed up!


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## mamarhu

I read TCC and Magical Child byJ C Pearce at the same time, about 1,000 years ago (can you tell I'm feeling old this morning? :LOL ) so forgive me if my comments slip from one book to the other - they are similar and have a lot of overlap.

We lived on a small sailboat for the first 5 years of ElderSon's life. I had never been around babies or children much, never babysat, and I don't think I had ever read a book on childrearing. We were quite isolated from other families with kids, and I got little advice re: childcare. Fortunately, ElderSon was a great teacher. I slipped naturally into cosleeping, baby-wearing, cloth (or no) diapering. Cribs, playpens, and babyproofing were out of the question. Tools and poisons (paint, solvents, etc.) were always in useand in reach. People around always expected him to fall over the side, eat nails, climb the mast and fall, or whatever. I never understood their fears. Why on earth would he want to do that? The way people described other toddlers to me, they sounded suicidal. Because we were so close, physically (the boat was only 36' long) and emotionally (his dad or I were with him, literally, 100% of the time) I could sense when he was less aware of his surroundings, and maybe call his attention to a danger if necessary. But I trusted him not to fall in the water just like anyone else. He did fall in once, from a dock not the boat, and I jumped in and pulled him out. He was not upset, but didn't like it, so avoided that in the future. Sailing in heavy weather, adults wore harnesses when up on deck, and so did the kid. He knew to clip his onto a line himself when he was 2 or so, though he mostly stayed below if it was rough.

My, I've gotten long-winded! Sorry. Fast-forward 13 years, and I had 2 more babies, a year apart. Although I didn't change my attitudes about child-rearing, these kids were, and still are, entirely different people than my first. I don't know if it was a response to being raised on a boat, with a more immediate sense of the world around him, an innate personality difference, or the difference bonding with 2 babies rather than just one. But, while I still didn't really baby-proof much, I have never had the same level of trust with the 2 little ones. I have had to get off my high horse, and quit the comments like:"if only the mother was more in tune, the ______ (baby-gate, drawer locks, etc) wouldn't be necessary." I've learned a little humility, which is probably not a bad thing.

I guess my point is that no child rearing approach can work without taking into account the personalities and environment involved. And this is far too individual to find in a book, no matter how good it is. The value of TCC (or any book, perhaps) is to open your mind, to see old things from new angles, and to offer options. What we choose to take from it is, and must be, individual.

One concept that resonated with me from those books, was the idea of the womb as a bridge into life, mother as the bridge into the world beyond the womb, father as the bridge from mother to the community, school as a bridge to the larger world. At each level, the child decides when to cross, and can retreat at any time (bridges go both ways). An infant cannot literally return to the womb, but baby-wearing approximates a dark, warm, safe, alive environment. An independant toddler comes back from an exciting day out with Dad, and needs to collapse in Mama's arms. At all stages, all the previous levels of nurturing need to be there, as backup. I'm nearly 50, and I still need my mommy occasionally. And that doesn't make me immature or pathologically dependant. I think it's healthy and wonderful. So I don't worry at all that 9YO Ds still sleeps with me. In the day he is independant, at night he wants a higher level of reassurance. OK by me.


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## EnviroBecca

We're now trying to decide how to cope w/EnviroBaby's determination to crawl off of the bed. He does this whether we are in the room watching, in the room doing something else, or in another room. He isn't fully crawling (yet) but scootching on his elbows, so his progress is slow; it's not that he isn't looking where he's going. He gets to the edge, he looks over (this is a mattress on box spring but no frame, so it's about 18" high), and then after a while he nudges himself forward, falls onto the hardwood floor on his head, begins screaming, and has to be comforted for about ten minutes. It hasn't caused him any actual injury so far as we can tell, but it could, and it's upsetting for everyone.

We put a thin foam exercise mat on the floor next to the bed to reduce the risk of injury. When he is sleeping, pillows around the perimeter of the bed keep him from rolling off--he bumps into one and immediately rolls back the other way--but when awake he's begun to regard them as challenges rather than barriers, so we've started moving the pillows when he's awake so that he can see the edges of the bed more clearly.

Should we let him continue falling until he realizes he doesn't want to do that? Should we discourage him when we can (for instance, by turning him around so that he's moving away from the edge) but let him fall occasionally? Should we put the box spring in storage to make the bed lower so that he can practice falling without getting hurt? (This last one seems wrong to me.)


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## Ellien C

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca*
Should we let him continue falling until he realizes he doesn't want to do that? Should we discourage him when we can (for instance, by turning him around so that he's moving away from the edge) but let him fall occasionally? Should we put the box spring in storage to make the bed lower so that he can practice falling without getting hurt? (This last one seems wrong to me.)

I would aim to teach him how to get down safely - by turning him around so his feet get off the bed first. I think in a more tribal culture he would have more exposure to children in various stages of development - including ones who turn around to get off the object feet first. But poor baby only has you and your partner. And you both get straight off the bed. Why shouldn't he?

So - yes, I'd turn him around, but not to keep him on the bed. I'd turn him around to show him how to get off without bumping his head. Give him information , too - ''You're near the edge. You want to get down? Try it this way." My 2.5 yo routinely climbs on and off our extra tall bed this way.

My dad somehow taught my DD to go downstairs backwards at about 10 months of age. It seems to have only taken a day or so. I don't really know how he did it since I was at work.


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## Thursday Girl

you do it that way so they cansee how. I myself woulg get off the bed backwords when Jewely was around so she could see how to do it, well i told her "this is how you get down"


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## flowers

we had this same issue, ds fell off the bed about three times and we just kept showing him feet first and I said the words feet first consistantly and firmly. One afternoon I was in the kitchen and I heard him so I took off to get there before he fell out of the bed and wouldn't you know there he was crawling down the hall towards me. Now anywhere we are all I have to say is feet first and he turns that little butt right around. He started at about 8 1/2 mos after about 2 months of working on it.

(funny, he dows feet first all the time even when not necessary ie. when a room changes from kitchen to living room or outdoors when it changes from sain to grass...very adorable!

mamarhu,

Wow, i could not resonate with you more clearly. Thank you for your wise words. I really liked what you said about the bridge concept...it warms my heart.


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## mandalamama

we do the "feet first" thing here, too. i started showing her how to do it around 7 months, when she fell off the mattress+box spring once. i made a little game of it, like "roll over ... now turn around, wiggle wiggle ... now shimmy down, feet first!" and she'd smile and wiggle herself into position with a little help. now she does it all the time, and can climb back up into bed.

i'm having problems with the CC concept of not child-proofing per se. this babe is very curious and VERY able, ahead of her ability to understand why i don't want her to touch something or go somewhere. so i've child-proofed the house to the point we live in the living room, office and the 2 bedrooms, and it's getting *really* bare. is that a good thing? i.e. the adults should learn to live without things we don't need? sort of like a hut, i guess *lol*

i'm too tired, i have to "pick my battles wisely" so i've just removed anything that's a danger, even duct-taped over some tempting things like outlets with plugs in them that i can't block with furniture. i still try to do my activities right beside her, though. like, i keep sewing stuff in a storage box that she can't open the lid, yesterday i was re-stringing our nursing necklace and she just watched. when she reached to grab the needle i said "it's sharp, i don't want you to get hurt" and moved it away. over and over and over







it took a lot longer to do than if i'd waited until my husband got home and done it elsewhere, but for some reason i just felt like she really should see me doing things, you know?

ETA: i also want to get back to my WAHM work, it's been 10 months! but Willow is 30" tall and i measured her reach with a yardstick, it's 36" when she reaches straight up. yikes! she also has the ability to push things around and climb on top of them to reach for things. my clay table is 31" height. i can push everything back away, and remove things she can climb on, but then she can't see directly what i'm doing and *wails* until my heart breaks. i thought of bringing her "high chair" in, it's a kitchen chair with a booster seat strapped to it with a seatbelt for her, for safety. but she only sits in that for about 20 minutes, when she's done with her Oatios or peaches or whatever, she's DONE and needs to be outta there! so i'm turning away business at this point







i thought of giving her some clay to work with, the clay says "non-toxic" but it's polycyanoacrylate, so she can't have any until she's much older and isn't eating everything she can touch! is salt-dough kid clay safe for a 10-month old?

how can i work, AND keep her safe, AND not inhibit her natural curiosity?


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## pjlioness

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca*
Should we let him continue falling until he realizes he doesn't want to do that? Should we discourage him when we can (for instance, by turning him around so that he's moving away from the edge) but let him fall occasionally? Should we put the box spring in storage to make the bed lower so that he can practice falling without getting hurt? (This last one seems wrong to me.)

There are many ways of dealing with this. You've had great suggestions already. We taught ds1 where the edge was by saying "edge" and putting our hand (arm vertical) at the edge. (We taught him "feet first" for the stairs.) We also had a baby monitor so that when he started to wake up and I wasn't there, I could quickly get to the bedroom to get him. Our bed was really tall, so he wouldn't have been able to go feet first without falling for some time, especially since he was a little guy. Ds2 was much less interested in getting down (or being away from me at all), so we really didn't have to do anything for him, and we also had padded carpeting and a shorter bed.

Other suggestions from the cc discussion list (www.continuum-concept.org) have been to temporarily pad the area around the bed or to put the mattress directly on the floor so your ds can get off without falling.

I personally wouldn't let him keep falling on the hard floor (though it may happen occasionally anyway). I don't think it would serve any learning purpose, except teaching him that the floor is hard, which he probably already knows.







I think it's much more helpful to guide him down/away from the edge and/or give him a softer landing.


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## pjlioness

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mellybean*
i thought of giving her some clay to work with, the clay says "non-toxic" but it's polycyanoacrylate, so she can't have any until she's much older and isn't eating everything she can touch! is salt-dough kid clay safe for a 10-month old?

how can i work, AND keep her safe, AND not inhibit her natural curiosity?

I'd say try the salt clay or some modeling beeswax. The salt clay is (probably) too salty for her to eat much and modeling beeswax (available wherever Waldorf supplies are) is quite safe. She might be fascinated enough by trying to do what you're doing that she'll sit in her chair for a while.
Let her see what you're doing and give her a couple of tools (stick and rolling pin).

If it doesn't work at all, try again in a couple of weeks.


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## spunky

We lived in an apartment w/o stairs until ds was 9 mo. Then we moved to a two storey house. He went down the stairs feet first facing up for a while but then wanted to do like we do and hung on the picketts of the bannister as he walked down the stairs (when he started to walk, 10 moish.) He has fallen all the way several times and only a few stairs and then caught himself several times. Always because he was playing on the stairs and not paying attention to what he was doing. I do let him roam about the house on his own since he could and wanted to. Mostly he stays where I am. If he is gone for more than a few minutes and things get quiet I sneak a look. He is a climber and frequently tries to scale shelves - can't get past the second one - and gets on the back of the couch and walks along it. A couple times he fell and now only does it when we are sitting there and can hold our hands. Sometimes he climbs some boxes on the back porch that are waiting for construction to finish to be unpacked and he calls me just to show me that he has gotten to a new place. I acknowledge it and then go back to what I was doing. Sometimes he asks for help getting down.
He helped his Papa build a patio in the backyard by handing him rocks and bricks. He would carry them over, heave them up an incline, crawl up himself and them carry the rock over to Papa. He wants to help with whatever we are doing. One day he stepped off a step onto a concrete slab while carrying a brick and squished his finger. It took nine stitches just in the tip. He was very careful with his hand while it was bandaged but still tried to do everything we did. He was 16 mo when that happened. Today we were digging out a huge rock in the backyard. It is so big we can't get it out of the ground, we are just digging around it to highlight as part of a rock garden. Ds insisted on using my trowel instead of his little shovel and did exactly what I had been doing. He seemed to really want to know that he was contributing and not playing. It was really neat to observe. (He doesn't talk at all yet.)
I've noticed that he seems to be getting bored being home with me all the time. We go to local playgroups, swimming etc. But I hate sitting around gossipping while the kids do "kid things". I have great respect for unstructured play. That's not it. It's just the whole playgroup thing. It doesn't sit well with me. I also don't have a lot of kid toys. Some balls, puzzles, rattles, legos, stuffed animals, trucks, tractors, trains (all metal or wood). There is a basket upstairs and one down. He loves spoons, both table and wood, measuring cups, pots, pans and their lids, the animals water bowl.
I wonder though, as he gets older, he is 17 mo, does he need more "developmentally appropriate" toys? I feel so stupid for thinking it. Like right now, he loves to put things into things. So he puts his tennis ball into a piece of tupperware and then dumps it from there into another one and back again. But should I get him one of those shape sorter thingys. He does that with the wooden puzzle. Do you know what I mean? Sometimes he just wanders around aimlessly.
Often, in the kitchen, he is fussy and wants to be held, not in a sling on my back but in my arms. He does not want to stand on a chair so he can see and play on the counter. Could he really be bored? With me? With home life? We are going to go to a once a week music class in the fall.


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## mollyeilis

We have a shape sorter thing from Tupperware, and Eamon rarely uses it. He'd much prefer to put a cell phone in a cup, and a plush polar bear in a box, etc.







The actual time he's spent with the Tupperware thing could be counted in minutes, and we've had it for ages. I think usually they like the "real" things better.









That said, he did sure have fun walking through the toy section at Target the other day, pushing buttons that make noises, sounds, and lights go on and off. He has nothing like that at home and really was having fun. And then 10 minutes later, he'd had enough and acted frightened of the toys. We wandered around for a while longer, than my hubby met me and I wanted to show him E's enjoyment, but E just looked at the toys and sort of made a face of "been there done that", then looked away.







It was fun while it lasted, but I think he realized it didn't do anything different. Same noises, same lights...boring after a bit.

I've been wondering if my guy is bored, too. I don't like going out much, and don't much enjoy meeting other women IRL, but I think I'm going to have to find somewhere to take him to expand his horizons! Ooh, maybe there are hiking trails somewhere nearby...that would be more natural than a playground, wouldn't it?


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## peaceful_mama

I have read MOST of the cc book. I love what she's got to say about letting the kids imitate your activities, not 'forcing' work on them, and letting them try to do things.

so if I were going to apply this in preschool for example...say I see a kid trying to carry several containers of paint to the easel......instead of going 'OMG you're going to drop those! We'll have a mess of paint EVERYWHERE to clean up! WHAT do you think you're doing???" that kind of thing, the more 'tribal' and 'appropriate' response would be to simply take some of the load, you're helping someone who is struggling to do something--doesn't matter if it's an adult or child, and if they see this going on between the *adults* too, they shouldn't feel like they're being singled out.

or at home....if my kid wanted to help do dishes, even at 2, I'd let said child climb up and stand on a chair and wash maybe some non-breakable stuff...one thing, if that's enough to satisfy, and let them go on their way. Or find a way to let the child join in on meal preparing when the interest strikes.

That all said, NO I can't be a total CC'er, in this culture I think someone would call CPS if they saw me letting my child play with a knife for example. I don't think not trying to stick something in an outlet is necessairly 'continuum' either. But there's a lot to be said for just watching for things that are truly a danger and doing only what you have to to avoid it. Like I was reading a post on here about someone who only got a toilet lid lock for one toilet in the house--DC never cared about the OTHER toilet, only when upstairs would the child go into the bathroom and play in the toilet. I like doing a minimal amount of childproofing (like outlet covers and moving poisions into upper cabinets) and making the home into a 'yes' place where you don't have to hover and they can touch anything.

And NO I don't think special baby food is CC....but maybe the child in question had allergies, I know I couldn't allow MY baby to eat Chinese at random because he's intolerant to soy, or at least he was to soy baby formula, and that's a risk I don't feel is worth taking at under a year old. So yeah, for convnience, I MIGHT carry some sort of 'baby food' to the restaurant. At home, he gets baby bite size or mashed portions of things we eat. I agree, nearly every adult meal has SOMETHING that can be fed to an infant in it.....except for McDonalds but that's another thread. And I do think kids learn to like things better when presented with it in the form it'll typically be eaten in. I see no real reason to introduce bland, pureed peas.......WHEN would you EVER choose to eat that? I also think there's something to the theory that if you have to process it till it's unrecognizable for the infant to be able to eat it, then maybe it is not a good food to give at that stage of development. (case in point infant cereal--grains are actually hard on baby's digestive system and *REAL* grains require teeth and chewing ability. Homeopath says absolutely not earlier than 10 mos, this is also when a lot of babies have a few teeth and some chewing ability where they may be able to handle 'real' oatmeal and rice.)

I wish I'd done more in-arms but thanks to having to pump continually, I didn't get to wear much..........hoping next time! also I am going to do a LOT more SLINGING and LESS stroller mess.


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## EnviroBecca

Thanks for the advice. We'll try more "feet first" modeling and explaining.

We have many things intended as toys, and EnviroBaby enjoys most of them, but there are some household objects he finds equally appealing. One way we vary things to keep him interested is that when we empty a box (from cereal, tea, etc.--a lightweight, brightly colored box) we give him that one and throw away the most battered of the boxes in his collection.

Now that I actually have a child of food-eating age, I've decided I'm willing to keep some "baby food" on hand and feed it to him when nothing else appropriate is available. This has come up mainly because we don't want him to have any animal foods yet and because some of our foods can't be adapted for a toothless person. For example, when we had salmon and corn-on-the-cob for dinner, he had applesauce. But when we had curry (lentils, carrots, apples, and rice) we just put some of it thru the food grinder and set a little bowl in front of him. He loved it.


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## flowers

We are going through an adjustment period right now. ds is 10 mos and into everything! I did do some childproofing b/c we live in community and I did not want ds to be playing or experimenting with other people's "nice" "grown-up" things. We do not have gates and all the grownup things have been moved into one room (giant cactus, cd books, woodstove, teak statues that have breakble beads, instruments etc. I did not gate that room but whenever ds heads that way I go sit with him in there and supervise that play.

What about trash buckets? ds is always in them and sometimes it is so gross. Ifind myself putting them up on counters which is not favortie.

Ds is so bored with me and the house. I have been trying to get out at least once a day where I do what he wants...play in the front seat of the car...crawl in the garden,,,,crawl around at the park etc. It used to be so much easier when he stayed in his sling and I could go about his business. Now the world is his oyster and I am struggling to find a place where we are both happy.


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## mollyeilis

I was inspired by thoughts of this thread, and now have been letting my son help me do the laundry. The dryer is right at his level and he loves looking at it/into it. Right now the door is gone because, er, I leaned into it while squatting to hug him and broke it. Oops! So it's right there.

Yesterday I started offering him light clothing (underwear instead of jeans KWIM) and asking him to put the clothing into the dryer, and he did, and he loved it! It was really cool.

Does anyone know what to do about indoor pets? We have a very dainty cat, she's 8 pounds *maybe*. She's very sensitive and likes to be treated gently. Eamon is big and strong, and as much as we try to get him to treat things (and us!) gently, sometimes he just doesn't. When I was pregnant, I promised the cat I wouldn't let the baby hurt her, but he already has once or twice.







As a result, she hides away in "her" room, sleeping all day. OK I know she's a cat and that's what they do, but she used to sleep all day out in our living room!

There's really no place for her out here; her place used to be the top of the couch, but now E can climb up there (I don't encourage that, as it gives him access to shelves with lots of books).

I've been thinking about putting a babygate in the doorway to "her" room, so she can be in there but also "of" the house. But I worry he'll try to climb the gate and/or throw things in there. And I worry that that will traumatize her even more.

Does anyone have any CC-style ideas? And does anyone have CC-style ideas on how to help a (near) 15 month old learn to be gentle with things?


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## spunky

Animals can be a tough thing. I decided that as long as they could get away from him, I would leave it be. But I did spend quite some time petting with him, showing him both with his hand and mine how to love the cat/dog. When someone hisses or runs away, he usually looks at me, and I say, "Kitty didn't like the way you hit/pulled him, so he ran away." Sometimes I make sure I am there but don't hover. Around 15 mo. he could pet nicely on his own but would still pull a few hairs out. I think he is imitating me that when I pet the cat from head to tail and pull my hand away it has a large mass of shedded hair in it.
The trashcan is a favorite. For pulling out and putting in. Be sure to check it before you thrown it out. Some of ours have lids. It can be really gross though.
You'll laugh about all this when you are the mother-in-law!


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## freakyspice

Hi CC-ers! I've been following this fab thread, but this is the first time I've posted. I first read TCC when my friend was pregnant. It sounded strange and wonderful to me when she said she was going to hold her newborn all the time! Now I have 6.5 mo daughter. Putting TCC into action with DD has been pretty easy so far (lots of in-arms time, co-sleeping, etc.) Now that she's getting older, I know there will be lots of other opportunities to be Continuum as she grows out of the in-arms phase and begins to explore the world on her own. The ideas/advice in this thread are great!

About food: Is it more continuum to give finger food (a piece of banana for babe to gnaw on) vs. feeding mashed banana from a spoon for babe's first solids? Does it matter?

Mellybean, I have a question about something you said.

Quote:

when she reached to grab the needle i said "it's sharp, i don't want you to get hurt" and moved it away. over and over and over it took a lot longer to do than if i'd waited until my husband got home and done it elsewhere, but for some reason i just felt like she really should see me doing things, you know?
I totally agree that she should see you doing "adult things" but doesn't JL say in TCC that if we tell our babes they will hurt themselves then they think that is what's expected of them? By saying "I don't want you to get hurt" does that make her expect to? It's prob just a matter of semantics, and believe me I'm not an expert since I haven't dealt with this yet. Might it be better to say "It's sharp" or something like that? I don't know, just thinking out loud







What do the rest of you tell your kids about "dangerous" things?


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## mollyeilis

re: food. I have a friend who would chew up table food, then give that pre-chewed food to her baby, like a baby and mama bird.









We tried mushed up banana, as it's easy to much bananas, but he didn't much like it. However, when we give him a banana, once he stops trying to eat the skin (he was born in the Year of the Monkey and sometimes I think he takes that too seriously LOL), he will actually mush it up on his own, then eat it. He will also mush up potato in his mouth.

I think that waiting until baby can eat more on his/her own is more continuum, and also better. That's what I think, at least.

re: danger...I spend time with Eamon in the kitchen. If I'm doing something that is dangerous, like cutting things, I'm always talking to him. This is usually when DH is home and is holding E while I cook (I don't hold or "wear" him while cutting things). I talk about how this is a knife, and it cuts things, and if he can see how I'm holding the knife and the onion (or whatever). Show him how to behave. If I'm handing DH scissors, I talk about it and I do it "right". I think a lot of it is communication, while you're doing something and every time you think about it.

All that said, I'm not perfect. We learned early on that DS is an adventurer. He grew very tall very fast, and so he can see things that most babies can't at whatever age he's been. He was pulling himself to stand at like 6 months? Insanely early IMO. And at 6 months he really hurt himself, knocking out a tooth, which damaged me and DH emotionally and mentally.

So it's really hard to not keep him from things! It's hard to not "expect" him to hurt himself, because quite frankly he has hurt himself! It's hard to hold back, both in words and actions. I try to hold back, because I don't want to "brand" him. My husband was branded by his mother, he's the "sneaky" one and the "fat boy". It's really hurt him. I don't want to do that, even if it seems justified, that he's DangerBoy or something funny (to us) like that. So..."adventurer" is what I try to keep in mind. When he's adventuring around the house, I just try to talk to him and help him do things safely (hoping he'll remember the safe way, not just remember that he did it, you know?). Sometimes I do just take him down from wherever he is. Like I said, I'm not perfect.

ha ha, I was going to say he might be the exception, and would be the baby that fell into the ravine (CC describes how they have a ravine or something, and that little children go right to the edge and stop?), but then I remembered that he routinely sits right on the edge of the bed, back to the floor, and as he starts to tilt he's *always* tightened his "core" muscles and leaned forward, instinctively. He *has* fallen off the bed (boxspring and mattress on the floor), but has never fallen off while awake. So I guess he isn't the one baby that would have fallen into the ravine.


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## KateSt.

Hey Mamas! I read CC when my boy was just weeks old and loved it (well, most of it). I was so excited to come across this thread and I did manage to finally read through all 14 pages (which was very informative!)

I also read Magical Child shortly after and often get them mixed up. Not to mention I'm just finishing Unconditional Parenting, which has some similar aspects as well.

Envirobecca -- I'm also having trouble with Finn crawling off the bed. I loved the "feet first" suggestion and dh and I just started doing it today.

A lot of the issues mentioned on this thread resonate with me (I also agree a separate forum would be very helpful, but I guess it was never okay'ed?).

My baby is just six months old so I have a very hard time not hovering. He's on the floor more now than he used to be and he's into EVERYTHING! And of course he puts everything in his mouth. I really do have to hover because he'll swallow paper (did that just today as a matter of fact) and cardboard after he's gummed it enough. Most of the time he's in arms or the sling, but he's always reaching for everything now. It's so hard not to say "no" or anything negative "like careful so you don't get hurt."
He wants everything dh and I have. Mealtimes are challenging (since he sits in our laps), dh comments that it's like "constantly playing defense."
We distract him by giving him his own silverware (spoons) and plastic cups, but that'll only work for so long.

And yes, he's pulled handfuls of cathair out of our poor kitties. Working on the gentle demonstrations, but it's hard to know if it's getting through to a six month old.

Do you mams think living CC(ish) gets harder or easier as they get older? I keep thinking it might be easier once he's not chewing on everything, but I'm sure I'll just be trading in one challenge for another.

I love this thread! Glad to be joining!


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## rumi

oh yes i did NOT mash any food for dd. just didn't do it. she didnt like it anyway, she only wanted to eat what we ate. and only wanted to eat by herself, which was fine with me - we did NOT feed her. we just made the food available.
it was not always easy, til she was 1 and she was allowed to have most foods. but i still didnt mash things. nice to know that i s in line with TCC


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## Angierae

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KateSt.*

Do you mams think living CC(ish) gets harder or easier as they get older? I keep thinking it might be easier once he's not chewing on everything, but I'm sure I'll just be trading in one challenge for another.



I go back and forth on this question a lot! Most of the time it seems to get easier. As they experience more things and still "manage to survive" your confidence grows. At the same time the experiences do seem to become more risky because they are capable of more. I find I hardly hover around my second child; the first one I was ALWAYS watching, even when I tried not too. Neither has had any serious injuries--I guess the extreme hovering just stressed me out!


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## Periwinkle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rumi*
oh yes i did NOT mash any food for dd. just didn't do it. she didnt like it anyway, she only wanted to eat what we ate. and only wanted to eat by herself, which was fine with me - we did NOT feed her. we just made the food available.
it was not always easy, til she was 1 and she was allowed to have most foods. but i still didnt mash things. nice to know that i s in line with TCC

Rumi, can you tell us more about this? How old was dd when you started solids and gave her regular bites of things?

I started solids with my youngest ds (6 1/2 months) and have been giving forked mashed avocado and baked sweet potato, regular applesauce, etc., but I'm wondering how you feed solids to a baby that doesn't have teeth, kwim?








:


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## mollyeilis

For us, it meant delaying solids. We intended to go a year, but he tackled me for an organic apple at just past 11 months.









We wanted no questions at all of whether he was ready, so being tackled answered that. But there were a few bites and sucks of the apple, then there was some interest in really soft pears that we had around that time, then his interest waned. No he's interested again, so we make things available that I feel are OK for him to eat.

While that sounds controlling, one has to compare our foods to the foods that would be in a more natural setting.







Hubby and I might be addicted to our cheese and soy-dog casseroles, but that wouldn't be out there in the wild.









Shredded (cut short) carrots were a HUGE favorite of his in the early days. He could suck on those, get them really soft, and then chop them up with his front 7 teeth. Didn't always swallow that, but he got *something* from it.

Anyway, delaying until they *can* do something with solids is what we've done.

Oh, just wanted to say...they still can't do all that much with grains, rice, and so on (meat comes to mind, if you're omnivorous) until they get those grinding molars. While we have given him access to rice and such, not much gets digested unless we give him a LOT of time to soften it and mash it up in his mouth. Mealtimes with rice are very very long 'round here.


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## flowers

I am a a mother bird also. Ds tried to eat very aggresively starting around when he first cut teeth (about 6-7 mos) and we used to share pears with him and he would gum and suck on the fruit. We gave him avocado and banana but like previously mentioned ds wants to feed himself and be eating what we are eating. He is 10 1.2 mos and does really well with a peice of fruit on his own. If we are eating I will chew the squash/ cuuke or whatever a few times and give it to him. That way it is still in almost true form plus my saliva helps with the breakdown since he is obviously not chewing it fully (he has 5 teeth). This is so normal to me that once in awhile I will be out in public speaking with someone and I realize I am chewing food taking it out of my mouth and giving it to ds







:







...kinda funny...sometimes embarassing.

Ds is also at the put EVERYTHING in his mouth stage and I am trying to be somewhat relaxed about it. Yes, he will swallow paper, but that is not the end of the world. I keep a wandering eye out but try not to hover. If I am cleaning up around the house and he is playing around and I see that he has something in his mouth I just casually walk over and take it out of his mouth.
I believe to some point it is really good for their immunity to put things and germs in there mouth especially while breastfeeding. Poisons and chemicals are a different story but I let him put leaves and grass and sticks in his mouth. I really think this is good for him.

I was at a women's herbal conference this weekend with ds and it was really great because all the classes were outside under tents so I could sit towards the back and let ds crawl and move around without intervening. It was really cool to watch who he approached and how the interaction went. Many times people would look around and say "who is your mother" and I was always there aware of where he was, but never intervening unless he was disturbing the teacher of the class. Many people made comments on how wonderful it was to see a baby so comfortable in his environment. Also, it was really beautiful to watch peoples individual reactions to a small baby choosing to crawl over and interact. Everyone had a different style and I really want ds to experience that diversity and not always have me controlling the situation. Some people were not that into him but I still tried to let the interaction play out on its own without my intervention. Overall it was a great community, continuum concept situation for ds and I was really happy with it.


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## Ellien C

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flowers*
Everyone had a different style and I really want ds to experience that diversity and not always have me controlling the situation. Some people were not that into him but I still tried to let the interaction play out on its own without my intervention. Overall it was a great community, continuum concept situation for ds and I was really happy with it.

THank you for posting this. It's so great to see a mom who values this kind of diversity in interaction. I feel the same way about things. I want my kid to learn that people are very different, but can still be loving.


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## KateSt.

bump...

'cause I want to refer to this thread without searching for it.


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## MisfitMama

Hey, as long as I'm reminded that this thread is here, I'd like to tell everyone about 4 books I read recently which I thought were EXCELLENT companion books to The Continuum Concept, and they are:

*Unconditional Parenting* by Alfie Kohn
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/074...books&v=glance

*Hold Onto Your Kids* by Neufeld and Mate
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/037...books&v=glance

*Ishmael* by Daniel Quinn
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/055...books&v=glance

*The Story of B* by Daniel Quinn
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/055...books&v=glance

I'd love to hear who has read them and what you think about them in relation to TCC and your lives. . .

MisfitMama


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## KateSt.

nak

misfitmama -- I've also read Unconditional Parenting and Hold on to Your Kids! Their concepts are so entwined with TCC that I'm constantly getting the books mixed up. Another one that I LOVE and fits in with these is "Living Joyfully with Children" by Bill and Winn Sweet.

I'm always looking for books with similar themes so I'll be sure to check out the other two you mentioned. Thanks!


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## MisfitMama

Kate,

Thanks for the tip. I'll try to get that book at the library ASAP, too.

MisfitMama


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## KateSt.

misfitmama, just wanted to let you know that I finished Ishmael yesterday and Wow! Everyone should read this book! Thanks so much for the recommendation. Just about to start Story of B....


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## MisfitMama

Kate,

Funny, I just started _Living Joyfully with Children_ today!

MisfitMama


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## kamesennin

Thanks for the book recommendations! I'm going to go borrow them from the library.

Also, I posted this before, but we are really having trouble now. I'd like to teach baby how to spit things out, but she just swallows them now (so far only paper). She's 8 mo and very curious, getting pretty good at the pincher grasp. What should I do? We're doing pretty good with wires and outlets, she just ignores them now.

Any advice very appreciated!
Liane

ps She climbed up 7 steps by herself today!







I had to look away because I became sort of paranoid but she was fine. She even figured out how to go down a few steps.


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## KateSt.

misfitmama -- I hope you like it! Let me know what you think.

pbandj -- we are going through exactly the same things as you! Finn just turned 8 months and crawled up 8 stairs all by himself (never even tried before now) and it was so fun to watch. Our stairs are too tall for him to go down, though.
He's also eating paper -- and if it's not too big a piece I just let him have it. He loves it and I doubt it does him any harm. I joke to people that his first foods have been paper, dirt, and sand. I'd also love to teach him to spit, but I've tried by showing him and he only laughs. Maybe if we just keep showing them, they'll figure it out.

It's so funny how much people in public tell him what he can't have in his mouth. At least 4 people just yesterday (who I don't know!) told him he doesn't want "that" in his mouth -- anything from plastic to necklaces to wrappers. I tell them it's okay and from the looks I get I guess they just think I'm an inexperienced mama who doesn't know any better. (eyesroll)

So many people get all up in arms because I let him play with straws or plastic bags. Yes, he pokes himself in the eye with straws but he doesn't mind and he keeps on playing. And I'm not too worried about him suffocating in a plastic bag if I'm right there with him. I can't BELIEVE how many people "parent" him when I'm right there!! I'd get mad, but then I'd be mad all the time and I realize I know better than they do.







We've made it a point never to say "no" to him. If he's doing something that's dangerous we just redirect him. But the amount of no's he gets from other people is astounding. I know a 1 year old who's first words were "NO!" and "Get Down!" (complete with finger pointing). I don't want that!







gotta go!


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## Girl Named Sandoz

I LOVE the book. I've read it about 5 times. My dh has read it as well. We were very CC when ds was little. It gets a bit harder as they get older, I find [or maybe that's just me?] but I still keep a lot of the things in mind... much of it comes very naturally to me, anyway.


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## Girl Named Sandoz

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MisfitMama*
Hey, as long as I'm reminded that this thread is here, I'd like to tell everyone about 4 books I read recently which I thought were EXCELLENT companion books to The Continuum Concept, and they are:

*Unconditional Parenting* by Alfie Kohn
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/074...books&v=glance

*Hold Onto Your Kids* by Neufeld and Mate
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/037...books&v=glance

*Ishmael* by Daniel Quinn
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/055...books&v=glance

*The Story of B* by Daniel Quinn
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/055...books&v=glance

I'd love to hear who has read them and what you think about them in relation to TCC and your lives. . .

MisfitMama









I love Unconditional Parenting as well. I agree it goes very well with the CC. As with the CC though, I find it is hard to parent that way when *everyone* around you thinks you are nuts, lol. My MIL uses 'good boy' in every second sentence, but, oh well. I guess people are often on 'autopilot' when interacting with kids, and UC and CC are such radically different ways of parenting/ approaches to child development that they can seem quite foreign to people [although, IMO, they are the most natural, instinctual way to parent - it just gets overlayed by all the 'expert' advice and the consumerist culture out there].

I haven't read the other books, but will look into them. Thanks for the recommendations!


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## kamesennin

Kate, thanks for the reply! Our babies have the same birthday, cool! Are you on the other Feb MDC board too? I'm Kakuno3 over there. Our babies sound similar, does Finn scream and fake-cry when you take stuff away from him, like a piece of paper that is just too big? Usually bait and switch works for Micah but I don't always have something tempting on hand. What do you do then? I just say that it's not for eating and take it away, but I wonder what I could do instead. I do let her know that I mean business, though, I never say no and then not follow through. It's so difficult when they turn around and smile at you while they have their hand reaching out to the socket or something--she seems to be mocking me sometimes, I swear!!

So is saying "no" really that bad? I save it for when she's sticking her finger in the light socket or eating an electrical cord, and do the sign for it, but she doesn't seem to care. Maybe I just shouldn't bother right now and wait until she is older? I also worry about metal things and try to keep them away from her because I am afraid that she will chip a tooth.

I really get annoyed when people say things are "dangerous". That word just bugs me to no end. So I try to let people know that things are not "dangerous", baby should just not be eating them. My mom does this a lot but she's trying.

Man, I am just so confused as to how to parent, I have no idea what I am doing. Anybody else feel this way?







It was so much easier when they couldn't move around.


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## MammaV

Just wanted to add a bit about the food stuff. DS is 9 months and has been eating solids since 6 mo. I chewed food up and gave it to him. I still do. We have a fine grater that works great. Good for apples and carrots. Other cultures grind food with stones, so I figure it fits in. DS has 4 teeth and will try to chomp down anything. He swallows a lot of food whole. We do a lot of raw food, and it all seems to digest.
The mom who posted about letting her baby crawl around at a meeting: YEAH! I do the same thing. Most of the time baby checks to see where I am and even more interesting, DD who's 4 and only 7 pounds heavier than DS, will move him about and they keep an eye on each other. She's great at helping him get things out of his mouth that he's done with and feeding him bits of her food. She bites it into little bits and DS is happy to recieve.
For those that do TCC and EC/CD. I find that DS will crawl over to me when he needs to go or has just gone so that he can be clean and dry. What about you guys. Do your babes do this too? Or do they explore on.
I've noticed that when I hold my cousin's kids, they're raised mainstream, and seem to fuss a bit, they calm right down. Could it be because I don't focus on them, but on my tasks? They seem to settle in to watch what's going on. Do you think it's because I expect a baby to go along for the ride and observe or that the constant focus the parents give to the whining and fussing makes for more whining and fussing? Do you guys find these things too?
So glad to find this thread. Not many I know parent this way...


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## flowers

mammav,

I did the same thing with Ds eating...about six mnths and I just chewed everything up for him. It is great because my saliva has the enzymes to start the breakdown so it is easier for him to digest. (Once in awhile I would automatically do this and realize I was at a formal wedding shower and someone would be giving me a look as I regurgetate food for him hee hee







) WE also do a lot of rawfoods...I just started giving him small peices of sprouted bread during these busy toddler times because he is so busy he does not eat so much so I try and get something a bit more substantial into his stomach.

I am the mom who lets ds explore on his own at meetings/gatherings. I really feel that it is so good for him to interact organically with me intervening only when necessary and appropriate. Plus, he makes a lot a friends of all ages this way. This way to he can learn social skills from someone other than his parents...it is a little bit more community based...letting the whole help care for the children. I try and implement this whenever I can.

Thanks for the book list...I am going to check those out.


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## kamesennin

I've heard not to swap spit with your baby because they can pick up bad bacteria from your mouth and then get cavities. I have lots of fillings, I just can't see myself chewing up food and giving the food to her along with my bugs. What do you all think about this?
THanks!


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## MisfitMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pbandj*
I've heard not to swap spit with your baby because they can pick up bad bacteria from your mouth and then get cavities. I have lots of fillings, I just can't see myself chewing up food and giving the food to her along with my bugs. What do you all think about this?
THanks!

I think it's hilarious. How on earth can you manage to never swap spit with your kid unless they're in daycare 60 hours a week? I have swapped spit, not even on purpose, with just about every friend and relative I have, multiple times, I'm sure.

People didn't used to get cavities - and I'm sure they swapped spit a lot more than we do - when they lived in tribal societies where there was no such thing as sugar and processed food (just check out the Weston A. Price threads!)

That's MY opinion!









As far as having stuff in their mouths, I just tried to act really calm and ask to see what ds had. He did eat a bunch of paper. But if it was something like a marble or a button, he would eventually give it back if I acted totally casual.

MisfitMama


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## KateSt.

Hi pbandj! (Is there still a Feb mdc thread? I thought they all moved to another server? I didn't move with them. I don't have the time or ambition for 2 different websites.







I miss that group though).

I don't think saying "no" is that bad as long as you save it for the really important things as you said (light sockets, etc). If I start saying no though, it can become habit-forming, so I try not to use it all at. Don't know if that's good or bad. Finn does get upset if I try to take things out of his mouth. So if it's harmless I don't do it. Other times I'll do the bait and switch (as you said). I'm still figuring it all out as I go along too.









About food. I delayed giving Finn any food at all for as long as I could. He's 8 months now and definitely interested in what WE'RE eating. So he experiments with tastes and textures but he doesn't really eat anything except bm. I'll give him raw baby carrots to suck and gnaw on (he has 2 teeth that can do a lot of damage!). I'll also share whole apples with him (he loves that). Other favorites are orange and lemon (yes, LEMON!) wedges, cucumbers, tomatoes, and olives. Sometimes I'll give him big hunks of food that he can gum and suck on. Other times I'll chew the food for him (even in restaurants -- I don't care what others think -- maybe they'll learn something!







). He mostly plays with the mashed food and would rather have whole chunks. I was just saying to dh yesterday "I can't imagine giving Finn baby food out of a jar. He wouldn't stand for it unless we were eating it too." It just doens't make sense to me now. Maybe later it will, but I doubt it.

Someone on the Unconditional Parenting thread pasted a link to an article from a great website (can't remember what it is right now?). I found another article on that website about Continuum Concept that I thought was wonderful. I'll see if I can find it....


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## KateSt.

Here it is:
http://www.scottnoelle.com/parenting/child-centered.htm


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## WuWei

I just wanted to subscribe to this thread as we are AP, CCish, non-coercive, unconditional parenting, radical unschooling, consensual living, TCSish.

Glad to see you all.

Pat


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## Girl Named Sandoz

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KateSt.*
Here it is:
http://www.scottnoelle.com/parenting/child-centered.htm

Great article!









He puts a lot of things into words that I've been feeling but haven't had as sorted in my mind. It's really helpful to see it all broken down and spelled out.


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## pjlioness

Scott Noelle is a regular contributor on the CC discussion list. He's pretty amazing. If anyone is interested in the official CC site/the discussion list, the URL is www.continuum-concept.org


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## FreeSpiritMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MisfitMama*
Hey, as long as I'm reminded that this thread is here, I'd like to tell everyone about 4 books I read recently which I thought were EXCELLENT companion books to The Continuum Concept, and they are:

*Unconditional Parenting* by Alfie Kohn
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/074...books&v=glance

*Hold Onto Your Kids* by Neufeld and Mate
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/037...books&v=glance

*Ishmael* by Daniel Quinn
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/055...books&v=glance

*The Story of B* by Daniel Quinn
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/055...books&v=glance

I'd love to hear who has read them and what you think about them in relation to TCC and your lives. . .

MisfitMama









I recently finished UP and loved it and have just purchased _Hold onto Your Kids_ so its great to know another TCC mama liked it







Love to discuss it with you when I've read it.

Scott Noells 'Where's my Centre' was a great read







as its an area I really struggle with mentally.


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## flowers

KateSt., funny bumping into you here. I just put it all together!


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## Ellien C

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pbandj*
I've heard not to swap spit with your baby because they can pick up bad bacteria from your mouth and then get cavities. I have lots of fillings, I just can't see myself chewing up food and giving the food to her along with my bugs. What do you all think about this?
THanks!

I want to address this with a little bit of research and some ideas I've had.
I read a study once where the cultured the "mouth flora" of babies and mothers. Under 6 months, the babies had their own dominant strains of mouth flora. But after 6 months, when the children started to get teeth, the babies acquired mom's strain of mouth flora.

My mother, my siblings and myself have always had what mom called "soft teeth." She said we all inherited her bad teeth and we've all had lots of cavities despite brushing. We had a standard American diet too with lots of sweets, but so do lots of people and they don't all have teeth as bad as us. My personal theory isn't that we inherited bad teeth, but that we inherited strong mouth bacteria that attack the teeth.

So, in order not to pass this bad bacteria on to my daughter, I've tried to be cautious about swapping spit. Not militant, but just acting like it's normal that we all have our own glasses, plates, utensils and tooth brusheas. I think I read TCC after she'd started solids and baby foods, so it just never ocurred to me to chew it up and give it to her. Not sure what I will do with the next kid.

Interestingly, a friend of mine, who works at the Dental society studied teeth and cavities. She said the rate of cavities in the middle ages (have I mentioned on this thread that I'm a medieval recreationist) wasn't any worse than the current rate. Something like 8 teeth in 100 have cavities. She said she always had this perception that teeth were so poor in the middle ages due to poor diet and bad hygiene. But our current sugar-laden diet doesn't seem to be anyworse than the middle ages. None of which has anything to do with tribal living, diet or hygiene, but it's related to teeth.

Just wanted to share my pet theory.


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## JohnnysGirl

I'm having a trying time with my two year old. We live in a small, modern apartment downtown in a largeish city, and we just....have nothing to do. Well, *I* do, just keeping up with changing diapers and clothes and feeding/shopping/cooking/cleaning for my family of 4 (one of whom is only 2 months old and in arms). But for him, we have nothing to do, really, as my responsibilities (such as breastfeeding the baby and yes I can do it in the sling even walking but still I can't always do very much else while breastfeeding) bore him and he has to try to find _interesting_







ways to get my attention, so we have a daily routine of heading to the city's largest playground in the mornings and cruising around running errands in the afternoon in town, and being at home all evenings before bed, as I simply cannot stay in our apartment all day with the baby and my toddler--he goes mad with boredom and starts wrecking the house or having a screaming fit. Basically I feel like I try desperately to juggle just getting through the day with my toddler so he doesn't go nuts because there's nothing going on for him in our little flat, while not getting too far behind on laundry/cleaning/shopping.

He has screaming fits. Sometimes just throws himself facedown in the gravel at the playground because I'm not paying direct attention to him and he's bored, despite all the other kids playing all sorts of games around him. Sometimes he throws a tantrum because I won't let him open the gate and head, alone and on foot, towards oncoming traffic outside the gated playground. I try so hard to just expect him to behave, expect that a casual explanation of why he shouldn't walk into a busy city street would do the trick, but it doesn't and he just goes berserk sometimes and then I do also.







: But staying in (which he says he would prefer to do) at home leads to even more tension as he tries, for example, turning the oven on full heat and opening the door and sticking as much of himself in as possible, while I've got a crying baby I'm trying to soothe simultaneously.







: I am nearby so this doesn't get very far (not even warm yet) before I put a stop to it, but I am at my wit's end trying to figure out how to deal with life with him, in a CC parenting kind of way. It's not going well.
Thanks for reading.


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## MisfitMama

Butterflymom,

How long has all this "difficult" behavior been going on - just since the baby was born?

I don't have a new baby, but I would like to sympathize with you about living in an apartment in an urban area. I have a 2.5-year old and we live in a 1-bedroom with no yard. . . and I am losing my mind! We, too, leave every morning just to get out of the house, because ds whines all morning otherwise. We are using up way too much gas and some days I just can't think of anything to do. To tell you the truth, I hate playgrounds. Thank God I have a lot of friends with kids, but even so, I can't find good things to do every day. It's something I am really struggling with right now. That probably isn't helpful, but I thought you might like to know there's someone else in your same predicament, as far as feeling cooped up (and winter is coming!)

Also, as far as "expecting" behavior - I think there are 2 levels of "expecting." There is consciously trying to expect YOUR KID to do non-antisocial things, and then there is the deep understanding that children are PROGRAMMED to behave "socially." Of course sometimes they don't want to do what you want them to do, but if you can relax and let it go, they will come around. I think the more we try to get them to stop doing things, the more they will do it. (That's my experience anyway.) OTOH, when you have a new baby, I think everyone gets thrown out of whack. Also, I think that a 2-2.5 year age gap is exceptionally difficult for everyone. Do you have some other mamas you can hang out with to help you deal with the situation?

MisfitMama


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## JohnnysGirl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MisfitMama*
Butterflymom,

How long has all this "difficult" behavior been going on - just since the baby was born?
Do you have some other mamas you can hang out with to help you deal with the situation?

MisfitMama









No, and yes. No he has been acting a bit tantrum-y since my milk disappeared in February but it has been slowly escalating into what I've been told to expect as 'the terrible twos.' But I never bought that, I swear! I always expected my little angel to continue to just be an angel as toddlerhood unfolded past his second birthday, and each hysterical tantrum I just tried to read his cues and get through, and brushed off as an occasional meltdown due to stress of some kind in his life. But....now it really does seem like there's something to this 'terrible twos' stupid thing.









I do have other mamas to hang out with, but not everyday. There's about 4 or 5 mom friends in the city I can hang out with,a nd that helps to pass the day, but I hate this time in my life when I'm struggling to get through the day coming up with things to do and just counting the hours until bedtime so that I can flop on the couch and not have two kiddos screaming at me. I'm sure it's that they sense the insecurity I have about what to do with them that is making them unsettled, but I *don't* know what to do, in practice, to remedy all this. I babywear the infant and push my son in his carriage through the busy city shop-lined streets, just to get out of the house and watch the world go by, and the boys are much more content this way...but then I just end up pushing/carrying them all over town for sometimes 8 hours in a row! You can imagine if bedtime then doesn't go well, with the boys taking a few hours to both fall asleep, alternating waking each other up in our family bed as I try to put them to sleep at about the same time (which is the time they are obviously tired and ready to sleep), I just about lose my mind and have a hard time fighting back tears after a 15 hour day of trying to keep them from both being hysterical at me at the same time. Really stressful. The other day my son darted from the playground and I really had to pull 'the boss' routine which I hate and feels wrong, to keep him from going into traffic, and put him kicking and screaming and cryinginto the stroller, and he was hitting the sleeping baby during this physical struggle, waking him and sending him into hysterics, and they were both screaming their heads off as I headed off from the playground towards home, and I couldn't keep from crying, right there in public on the street, *myself*! The only person I could call (husband was at the gym, not answering a phone), was my stiff businessman father in law, who promised to help out the following night (last night). Things have been better the last 12 hours, but I still feel like I'm on the edge......


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## MisfitMama

Butterflymama,

Oh, I wish there was something I could do for you. I can't even co-miserate since I have only one child, although, I too, was determined not to feel like there were any "terrible twos" and I must say this age is much harder than I expected. I never think of ds as having tantrums (although maybe other people do) because he rarely seems mad (or when he does, he just yells at me! :0) But anyway, he does break down into sobs/screams several times a day even if I just try to take a shower, or tell him that somebody already ate all the pizza, or that we have to return a library book.

Ugh. . .well, 8 hours a day of walking, that must be EXCELLENT for your health. Maybe you could have this be a challenge to you at this time in your life to become a fitness goddess? It's definitely compatible with CC parenting. When I was babywearing almost 24/7, I felt amazing. Now that ds is older and he doesn't want to walk, be carried, or ride in strollers, I get much less exercise and I can feel my whole body turning to jell-o.

Could you do yoga to a video inside the house? What about starting up some kind of group? People here have started up fiber arts groups, dinner club groups, outing groups, unschooling/homeschooling groups, mother/baby yoga groups, playgroups, etc.

Well, I hope someone else has some advice for you. You could also try calling the abovementioned Scott Noelle - I bet he could help you!

MisfitMama


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Butterflymom*
I'm having a trying time with my two year old. We live in a small, modern apartment downtown in a largeish city, and we just....have nothing to do. Well, *I* do, just keeping up with changing diapers and clothes and feeding/shopping/cooking/cleaning for my family of 4 (one of whom is only 2 months old and in arms). But for him, we have nothing to do, really, as my responsibilities (such as breastfeeding the baby and yes I can do it in the sling even walking but still I can't always do very much else while breastfeeding) bore him and he has to try to find _interesting_







ways to get my attention, so we have a daily routine of heading to the city's largest playground in the mornings and cruising around running errands in the afternoon in town, and being at home all evenings before bed, as I simply cannot stay in our apartment all day with the baby and my toddler--he goes mad with boredom and starts wrecking the house or having a screaming fit. Basically I feel like I try desperately to juggle just getting through the day with my toddler so he doesn't go nuts because there's nothing going on for him in our little flat, while not getting too far behind on laundry/cleaning/shopping.

He has screaming fits. Sometimes just throws himself facedown in the gravel at the playground because I'm not paying direct attention to him and he's bored, despite all the other kids playing all sorts of games around him. Sometimes he throws a tantrum because I won't let him open the gate and head, alone and on foot, towards oncoming traffic outside the gated playground. I try so hard to just expect him to behave, expect that a casual explanation of why he shouldn't walk into a busy city street would do the trick, but it doesn't and he just goes berserk sometimes and then I do also.







: But staying in (which he says he would prefer to do) at home leads to even more tension as he tries, for example, turning the oven on full heat and opening the door and sticking as much of himself in as possible, while I've got a crying baby I'm trying to soothe simultaneously.







: I am nearby so this doesn't get very far (not even warm yet) before I put a stop to it, but I am at my wit's end trying to figure out how to deal with life with him, in a CC parenting kind of way. It's not going well.
Thanks for reading.

Ok, I hope I don't get bashed. We have always just given simple explanations without restrictions for our son. And modelled safe behavior. But I am only one person and in the CC tribe there were many models in their environment which were reinforcing the children's observations. I don't think it is realistic to expect a child to observe one time in a dangerous enviornment and do anything perfectly. Crossing a street is a complex task which children do learn with enough modelling.

I only have one son and when he was that age he was in arms. I don't know the age separation of most children in the CC tribe; but regardless, I imagine there were many 2 year olds in arms still, much of the time. Our son had the opportunity to be in arms crossing the road through out his third and even fourth year, whenever he desired. And he preferred to be up to see the world from a higher pov. He also loved to run head long. But he had plenty of opportunities to do that and then I just offered or he requested to be up in arms when we crossed the road. Or I offered or he requested to hold my hand when we crossed the road.

I am not suggesting that you can do this. I am just suggesting that your experience may not parrot what you have read about children in the CC because our social support system and our age spacing may be differerent. As are many other environmental variables. We don't live next to busy streets generally for them to have many, many opportunities to observe crossing busy roads. And we are not a group of women crossing the street together.

And as far as playing by themselves. I don't believe CC children had the occasion to be self engaging in a enclosed environment without other activity occuring simultaneously that was on par with something where the child could participate. Fortunately, our machines for cleaning are more advanced than in the CC. But children can help with parts of the cleaning activities. However, I didn't observe that much for ds to do alone in the house. We basically lived most days at the park or out and about until he was about three. Just like you describe. Because the world was more interesting outside than in. I wasn't engaging with him specifically; he was engaging himself because he wanted to explore and master the play areas and absorb everything around us. We have had the benefit of creating a group of friends who met at the park too. And their children's familiarity certainly prompted engaged play.

I am not sure if your expectation of your son never having frustrated emotional expressions is consistent with the different social engagement opportunities that a nuclear family environment creates. With many activities of household chores, I too postponed them until necessary or asked dh to help. (Dh learned more about keeping a household than he ever wanted to know.







) And I did the non-delegatable tasks of nursing and child care during the day as my focus. It is a lot to juggle alone without other women in the environment. That isn't how life flows in the CC tribe. There are interdependent relationships which are synergistic. So much more is able to be accomplished with many hands than with only two. You sound like you are doing it all! I'd suggest patting yourself on the back with one of those hands







.

Pat


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## flowers

Oh mama! First of all I want to tell you that you are not alone! So many women are out there going through very similar struggles as you are right now.








Second of all, I really feel that while cc is such a relevation and great way to view parenting there are limitations on how much you can implement into our modern lives in the fact that the model cc is based on is completely different than the model most of us live (for example there are no busy roads in the jungle).

ALSO, A women would never be alone all day by herself with two young children.

I only have one of my own but I nanny a 4 yr old so I know what you mean. Also, I just went through a hellish three weeks of my 1 yo not taking naps and staying up until past 10 pm at night. I sounded like you...at the end of my rope and confused about my parental role and decisions.

This phase will past and it is all about you getting through it. Kids change through cycles so often and before you know it this part will be a memory so just deep breathe and know it will pass.

I can also relate immensely to the whole challenge of having to get all the household chores done but feel like there is no time for the kids in there and that can really exacerbate a situation.

In a model cc community there would be older kids 5, 7, 8, even adolescents who would be playing with your 2 year old. They would keep him busy busy and he could run back with you and check out the baby and what your doing, get a kiss and some food and then be off again. Instead you are left to play ALL the roles....how does this work...it just does not.

I try to think of this while I am trying to wash cd, food shop, cook, bf, pay bills etc...and I always have a deap longing for a tribe of sisters who went further than playgroups and just hanging out. Sisters who worked with me and shared in the responsibilites of raising a family.

Good luck mama and give yourself a lot of credit. We love you.


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## JohnnysGirl

Quote:

I am not sure if your expectation of your son never having frustrated emotional expressions is consistent with the different social engagement opportunities that a nuclear family environment creates.
Oh of course I expect him to have frustrated emotional expressions! But yesterday for example he had ten screaming confrontations with me, despite my trying soooo hard not to be in situations in which he couldn't explore as he pleased (so I wouldn't have to say "no") unless absolutely necessary (like when he tried going into a nearby candy shop inside a mall while I was on a bench breastfeeding and helping himself to candy from the bins.) Three of the tantrums were absolute hysterical rages where he acts very similarly to the possessed girl in the Exorcist (not kidding! NOTHING works to get him out of this unless I can get a breast into his mouth and he latches on despite himself, or if he falls asleep) and is completely out-of-this-world unable to be reasoned with in any way or comforted in any way (comforting makes him scream louder and he tries kicking at us or scratching at our faces). This is how I start most days, it happens often during the day, and most evenings also. The mini-tantrums where he just cries and screams and may kick at me a little but I am able to get him to let it go just by moving along to a new place and acting casual....those are bearable but yesterday they came, on aveerage, every 90 minutes! I just get so tired, especially with a newborn in arms already....and whilst VERY rarely getting any break from him around the clock.

Quote:

With many activities of household chores, I too postponed them until necessary or asked dh to help.
DH has been great to his ability, but he is working a lot right now so we can afford to purchase land, build a home, and start our own village with other likeminded families we know with small children/babies/expecting baies.
So it's mostly me doing the child care and home care.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flowers*

I try to think of this while I am trying to wash cd, food shop, cook, bf, pay bills etc...and I always have a deap longing for a tribe of sisters who went further than playgroups and just hanging out. Sisters who worked with me and shared in the responsibilites of raising a family.

OMG me too...like a deep, intense, gut-wrenching longing for a tribe of sisters! And we'd live alongside each other doing real activities (yes I know in our modern lives we don't have so much 'to do' just to be clean, fed families, but in the village we are planning we could come up with great projects all the time that would feel like 'real work' --like building a neat playhouse, gardening, or elaborate science experiments or art projects, just whatever appeals to the members, adult and children alike, of the group, like unschooling for all!). We are trying desperately to get 4 other families we are friends with, who also plan on homeschooling(unschooling) and having more than two children, all committed to a plan of buying a lovely large lot near our city where we can split it up and construct a little village where everyone builds their own homes individually but we all contribute to build a common building where adults could work "from home" with tons of office equipment, and we would share learning resources, tools, games of all kinds...and where we would just hang out and party when we want a large open space for big activities with all the children (like parties!). We live in Finland, which is why we have to think about a large indoor space for learning activities and things like that...otherwise the woods would be great for all-day play of course. It's so dark and cold here for such a long time in the winter so it's really important to try to create a fun, rich indoor existence for small children, with more people present than just mom, toddler, and baby....everyone at the end of their tether!
But as nice as all that soudns to me, I still have to get through this winter without breaking down in tears myself on a regular basis, kwim? It's an isolated existence. Thanks so much to the ladies who have responded their support already, it means a lot to me...this has been such a confusing time for me and I _had_ been so confident about my natural mothering skills before I had a two year old. :LOL


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## MammaV

butterflymomma,
I'm a mom of a super temper tantrum thrower, now four. Our best remedy was to pop her in the shower and let the water run over her until she calmed down. Running water will clear the body's energy field. It works. We also found bach flower essences to be helpful. We used holly for jealousy when #2 was born as well as rescue remedy which is great anti stress/anxiety. We also addressed her troubles with homeopathy. Her particular remedy state leans toward tantrums, hitting, biting, kicking, pulling hair, jealousy even to the point of hurting baby. Having her on her homeopathic remedy helps her deal with her stress and her adjustment into the family of four. I know that not everyone has a homeopath available, but if you do, it may be worth a shot. Some of these behaviors aren't done out of malice, but the child cannot actually help him/herself. I have experienced this first hand. Our bodies and whole selves are bombarded with all sorts of stresses in our modern world not experienced in simple life, I believe that we need to help strengthen our bodies to be able to cope with the stresses more productively. Homeopathy has worked for us and with it, we can more successfully live in a cc manner. Rescue Remedy goes with us everywhere. In the states we can pick it up at any health food store or natural foods store. It's relatively inexpensive, starting at about $10 for a small bottle.
Good luck with your son. I know that things will settle down. It's hard to find one's new place when the family grows for some youngsters, and even some adults. Consistent unconditional love and behavior will help that transition.
Lots of luck, you'll be in our prayers


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## KateSt.

Hi, Flowers! I've run into you in a few places haven't I?







How is your little ones bedtime going? Finn has been doing really well at going to bed btw 8:45-9pm. It's actually been a lot easier than I thought!

Butterflymom -- You've received so much good feedback, but I just want to give you some added ((((HUGS))) and support. I'm sure this must be so difficult for your whole family. Please keep us posted and know that we're all here for you.

I, too, only have one child and can so relate to what many of you said about feeling isolated. Finn craves other people (as I'm sure all babies AND adults do) and we absolutely HAVE to leave the house every single day at least twice a day to keep him (and me) happy. Some days it's fine, other days I feel like I'm making up things to do, errands to run, just to have some sort of fabricated-tribe-like experience. As some of the othere mamas here posted, I'm not into play-dates, so I have to be very imaginitive.

We were at a family funeral this weekend (more of a celebration of life than anything else) and there were about 50 family members gathered afterwards for lunch. Finn, who had to get up early and hadn't napped at all was in his element. He LOVED being with all those adults and children of different ages. It made me yearn so badly to live closer to family -- and I have NEVER said that before!







But it made me realize that even if your family drives you crazy, you should be with them and love them and have them around so you can share experiences, memories, chores, childcare, and wisdom. It's so sad that our culture has lost touch with that. Well, my times up...so gotta go.

Talk to you again soon...


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## KateSt.

Butterflymom-- been thinking of you and hope you're finding some relief.

Well, I've actually read through this thread twice but I can't remember the answer to the question I'm about to pose:

Anyone not childproof at all? No gates for stairs or even outlet covers?

Finn actually crawled up 10 stairs the other day without my even knowing where he was, and I know some mothers would have freaked out, but I was thrilled for him because he did it so well, so confidently, and without faltering. I watched him do it 4 more times in a row.







He definitely can't go down yet, though. And though he has tried, I'm always with him and can help him if he needs it. Just wonder if I'm being REALLY irresponsible for trusting us so much? Maybe it'll be important when he starts walking?

He has gone for outlets several times, but I always just divert him and he never persists. Don't know if it's worth covering them up or not.

As an aside, we were visiting with Finn's Korean aunt (by marriage) over the weekend and I was surprised at how strict she was with what Finn could and couldn't play with. Even though I said it was okay, she wouldn't let him play with chopsticks, a coaster, or spices. She said in Korea they make a certain "ma ma" noise and gently slap the babies hand. I think she thought I was totally nuts!








On the other hand, she said 90 percent of the babies in Korea are breastfed, and she was breastfed until she was 4.


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## WuWei

We had electrical outlet covers in *everywhere* when I was 5 months pregnant.







I guess to keep me from sticking two metal items in both sides of the outlet _at the same time_.







It really takes a lot to shock yourself. We left them there because they were so damn hard to remove. I really see no point in them but family will feel better about it. And then you don't have to go on and on discussing it over and over. Our son could remove them more easily than we could anyway. I didn't read TCC until he was about 7 months old.

When he wanted to plug and unplug electrical cords was a bit more stressful at first. He was probably about 18-24 months. I just assisted and discussed touching the plastic holder part and we never had an issue. I also just said, 'let mama know if you want to unplug something and I will help you'. And he would say 'I do it' to let me know each time. And I'd watch, sometimes helping to make sure it is pushed all the way in. We did that maybe 6-10 times over a couple of days and it was over. In spurts he would want to plug and unplug the vaccuum cleaner between age 2-3. But he was quite careful and proficient.

The gates came before TCC too. And frankly they just made my life easier. Anytime he went to the gate I just opened it and he crawled up. But it was safer when I was in the bathroom or something. I was paranoid about it at night, but that was silly because we co-slept and it wasn't like he was going to escape and fall down the stairs without me waking up. But, we did latch them at the top of the stairs. You might place something non-skid and soft at the bottom just to soften the crash. But basically, it is a very short time between trying to climb and able to climb.

The hardest time for me was when he was trying to stand without holding on. I was worried that he would end up with a concussion from toppling over. But since then, I see what a hard head he has (several seriously hard falls while running) and he is still quite intelligent despite several hard topples onto the hardwood floors when I wasn't right there. So, the gates don't keep them from whacking their heads, they find ways to do it anyway and survive just fine. There are no 'gates' to protect them from trying to stand and tripping while running and tripping over their toes, shoes, toys, my leg, etc. Falling is part of the program.

Do get some Arnica Montana 30c and Arnica topical creme. These help soft tissue damage, brusing and internal bleeding. They are amazing. We don't leave home without them. Our son was running down a cement driveway, tripped and ricochetted his forehead off the cement. He had an immediate small egg sized white knot. I applied the arnica creme and gave him some arnica pellets and he ran back out to play after crying and nursing of course. I called dh to tell him because I knew there would be a huge black and blue area on his head when he came home. But that evening the knot was flat, and only red and it *never* turned black and blue or yellow. And it was barely pink the next day. I have sworn by Arnica ever since. It is amazing. Another friend used it post op after a mastectomy and no other pain medicine.

I am evangelical about homeopathy.





















Anyway, hope that helps.

Pat


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## mollyeilis

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KateSt.*
As an aside, we were visiting with Finn's Korean aunt (by marriage) over the weekend and I was surprised at how strict she was with what Finn could and couldn't play with. Even though I said it was okay, she wouldn't let him play with chopsticks, a coaster, or spices. She said in Korea they make a certain "ma ma" noise and gently slap the babies hand. I think she thought I was totally nuts!







On the other hand, she said 90 percent of the babies in Korea are breastfed, and she was breastfed until she was 4.










That's odd. My Korean MIL would let Eamon play with just about anything in her house. And says she wouldn't care if he broke it. The way it works in DH's family is that until the child is 2 years old, they are the KING/QUEEN of the household. My brother in law wasn't made to walk until he was 3 or so. He could, but he didn't. (and he was being cared for by his grandmother, who was older and more frail than my MIL) Anyway, all of the cousins in Robert's family are allowed to do whatever they want to, until they turn 2 (I think it's 2). And then after 2, they are taught some responsibility and are expected to behave better.

To Robert's great surprise, it actually works. He didin't think it would, seeing how the young cousins acted, but then on a later visit he saw those "wild" little ones responsibly taking care of their new, baby, siblings, who now were allowed to do whatever they like.









But yeah, breastfeeding is FAR more the norm. In fact, it was my Korean MIL, her sister, and the sister's husband that I nursed Eamon in front of the first time (I was out of it, though), and then they visited the next day and I nursed him again (with boobs bigger than his head LOL), full exposure, in front of them again. They didn't even think twice, and it was all cool.









*****
We childproof to an extent, but it's more to save our stuff from Eamon, rather than save Eamon from our stuff.

I don't have much of a problem with stairs, as long as they aren't too steep and are carpeted. He doesn't have much access to that sort of thing, but he does OK when he encounters them.


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## flowers

I do have electrical plugs in "most" of the sockets but that is because I let ds roam free and he does like to stick things in there. I am not a fan of following him around all day. We just started up the woodstove for the winter and everymorning it is the first thing he does when he wakes up )blows to sign the word "hot" which we use for the stove). I get up with him and I crush some newspaper and he puts it in a and then when I light the fire he helps me blow on it. I teach him not to touch the stove but I pretty much expect him to have his own relationship with the fire an dknow when it is really hot he will not touch it.

Ditto what the last person said...we child proof to save our stuff from him...the things I do not want completely destroyed. We joke that we should start a demolition company with ds heading it!


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## KateSt.

Thanks so much for your feedback Pat, Hillary, and Mollyeilis. I really appreciate it! We did buy a gate yesterday, but it looks even more hazardous than just stairs so we're not going to use it. I can't figure out if I'm just too lazy to childproof or just going with my instincts! There ARE some things we own that I would like to save from Finn as you said, however.

Pat, I did pick up some arnica montana 30 today and some arnica gel. I used arnica after childbirth and I'm sure it helped. Thanks for the reminders. Since you're a homepathic queen, what do you suggest for baby colds? Liquid echinecea (sp?) or something else? TIA.


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KateSt.*
Pat, I did pick up some arnica montana 30 today and some arnica gel. I used arnica after childbirth and I'm sure it helped. Thanks for the reminders. Since you're a homepathic queen, what do you suggest for baby colds? Liquid echinecea (sp?) or something else? TIA.

Actually we are on classical homeopathy so we don't use acute remedies except for severe issues like emergency first aid. And some Bach flower remedies on rare occasion. I really do not know how to recommend acute remedies. There may be a 'natural health' forum that could help. But, we don't get sick while on classical homeopathy; so you might check that out. We see a professional homeopath to proscribe accurately though. Self-proscribing classical homeopathy is tricky, imo.

Pat


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## KateSt.

Thanks, Pat. I WILL check out classical homeopathy. Sounds great!


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## EnviroBecca

EnviroBaby is a great stair climber! He learned to go up about a month ago. Then he wanted to go down, so he crawled to the edge of the top step (I was right there watching) and looked down. He stretched his hand tentatively toward the next step down, but just as he reached it he felt himself begin to tip forward, so he pulled back. After a few rounds of this, he decided he couldn't go down headfirst and stopped trying. He then studied the problem by climbing on and off a cushion in various directions. Then he tried going down the stairs in a sideways-until-one-leg-is-down-then-backward fashion and was quite successful. He has slipped a couple of times but hasn't taken a serious fall. We have a gate only at the top of the stairs.

Now that he's adept at crawling, I've noticed that he prefers to be near an adult (usually me, but sometimes he'll follow EnviroDaddy or a visitor) at all times. I used to set him up w/toys on a quilt in the dining room and then cook or do chores mostly in the kitchen, checking on him every so often, and he seemed okay w/that...but now that he has control over where he is, if I go into the kitchen even for a second, he's headed in there! This pretty much eliminates worries about his climbing the stairs or something without supervision, because he stays where we can see him!







This is also true in public places where he's comfortable enough to be on the floor, such as church coffee hour or Girl Scout meeting: He explores, but he's never >10 feet away from me.

My aunt and I have been corresponding about children's safety. She's raised chickens for years, and she told me that her 22-month-old granddaughter recently collected the eggs for the first time, bringing back happy memories of how her daughter collected the eggs as a toddler. My aunt says, "Sure, there's a broken egg once in a while, but it's no big deal compared to the convenience of having a kid who can go get the eggs!"


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## flowers

We talked about this earlier in the thread , but it may be worth bringing it up again. Teaching them feet first is easy and makes SUCH a difference. From an early age I did not even blink when ds was on a high bed or at the top of 4 or five stairs. Of course mothers always have their eagle eye fine tuned and I was there when he did need assistance or was trying something beyond his comfort level.


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## nmm2112

Hi - I just found this thread and haven't yet read through all 17pages of replies but it sure looks interesting.

I read the CC as part of a book club that my local AP group was doing.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet here but we were all kind of interested in Leidloff's actually age/experiences when she wrote the book. You know how actually being a mom changes your actions sooo much







- we all thought we'd do certain things one way and then, when we became mothers our actions/thoughts on the issues often change.
Just a thought....
ideas? (did I miss this earlier in the thread,.... I'm off to go read,...)


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## Ellien C

We didn't do much child-proofing at all. The gates, came before CC, but no outlet covers, no cabinet locks, and toilet locks and my chemicals and cleaning supplies never did move to an upper cabinet. BUT - I had a relatively easy kid and she was in day care most days. It's not like I was home with her. When she went to the china cabinet for example, I just took the dishes out and showed her them. And then we put them away and it was fine. I was so shocked when the neigbor toddler was going for my cupboards. My DD just didn't do that. My point here is that kids are SO different. I might have felt the need to do more babyproofing if I was home or if she showed more interest, had a different temprament. The toothpaste is out - everything. She just never got that into stuff. She also never ran into the street or away from my car. Yeah - I'd like to think that's because of my positive expectations and great CC environment I created. But it ABSOLUTELY is not. I think I lot of it has to do with temprament.

I am also the mother of a 2 yo who, slept last night from 10-6 am and had no fewer than 8 meltdown screaming fits this morning before we left for the b-day party at 10:15! I lost count. It was awful. I think that's just how it goes. I don't beat myself up about it and that's where it's good to have a dose of fine mainstream neighbors who are going through the EXACT same thing. I know Liedloff said she never saw these things, but truthfully we don't know all that much about the Yequana. She wasn't a trained anthropologist and our living circumstances are just SO different than theirs. Pat had a good post about not setting yourself up to expect perfection. We simply don't have that tribe. We are trying to be all things to our kids (even mine, in day care 40+ hours a week). It's perfectly normal for 2-3 yo to have screaming tantrum-y fits. Maybe the Yequana didn't, but mine sure does and I can't beat myself up about it.


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## WuWei

I do want to add that I am more of an advocate of suiting the environment to our children's needs than expecting that they will adapt to an _unnatural_ environment from which they have no recourse. So, having "emotional outbursts" preceding going to a birthday party, to me indicates that the environmental demands were beyond the child's ability to cope with either the expectations or the environment. When that environment is organic such as the CC tribe, that is a totally different realm than one artificially or arbitrarilly imposed on a child without the child having a means of dissent.

For instance, I consider our home the organic environment from which our child does not have to leave unless he chooses to "follow me". And I do consider my own expectation not to leave him without adequate care my responsibility to provide, such as I did not birth into the *natural order* of an extended support system which doesn't exist in our home/community. Because I chose to birth into a nuclear family unit ("indigenous" to our culture), but chose also to *adopt* a CCish parenting/living practice (which *does exist* with an indigenous extended community of caregivers), I am accountable to not obstuct or remove the same non-imposed, non-directed freedoms that the CC children experience, imo. By insisting or expecting that our son will come with me against his will seems in opposition to the practices of the CC tribe from my perspective.

In order to provide an equivalent choice of the CC children, for our son to "follow me" or not, I believe that our son either has the option to refuse leaving his 'organic home' environment; or I work to find a mutually agreeable alternative that meets both my need for him to have adequate caregiving _and_ his 'organic home' type environmental expectations. This effort on my part to replicate the choice that the CC children had, decreases the artificial and arbitrarily imposed environments to which children are generally objecting when they are "having a tantrum". This follows that imposing 'dressing to go out', 'hurry we have to be somewhere', 'having to get in the carseat', _when our son doesn't want to follow_ causes the emotional distress in ways that the CC children were not subjected.

Therefore, our son has the option not to leave his organic home environment or we find a mutually agreeable solution. The same facilitation of choice occurs when he doesn't want to be somewhere, he has the option of going home with support. We work to find a mutually agreeable solution to that also.

Just wanted to add my $0.02

Pat


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## pjlioness

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nmm2112*
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet here but we were all kind of interested in Leidloff's actually age/experiences when she wrote the book. You know how actually being a mom changes your actions sooo much







- we all thought we'd do certain things one way and then, when we became mothers our actions/thoughts on the issues often change.

JL was college-age when she first met the Yequana. She went back a few more times over several years. She has never married and has no children of her own.

IMO, her lack of qualifications [no related degree(s) and no children of her own] are not of much concern. In fact, I think one's college degrees can sometimes get in the way of unbiased observation/research. Just consider modern medicine!

In this culture (increasingly over the last hundred or so years) we have developed a programed tendency to believe that only someone trained (with a degree or sometimes sufficient life experience) in a subject can know what they are talking about. I believe this is harmful, and we need people to look at our world with fresh eyes, because they'll see things that the rest of us have missed.


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## pjlioness

scubamama,

















Wow!

Now that's what I call a complete paradigm shift.









I keep forgetting that my agenda isn't necessarily my kids', especially when we have "somewhere to be".

Could you take us through a couple of examples (one where he accompanied you and one where he didn't)? I'd like to learn from your approach.


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## JohnnysGirl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pjlioness*

Could you take us through a couple of examples (one where he accompanied you and one where he didn't)? I'd like to learn from your approach.









: And how this all works w/ multiple children, no help at all, and sometimes having moments where both your very young kiddos need mommy in ways that conflict with each other....


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## mamarhu

From pjlioness:

In this culture (increasingly over the last hundred or so years) we have developed a programed tendency to believe that only someone trained (with a degree or sometimes sufficient life experience) in a subject can know what they are talking about. I believe this is harmful, and we need people to look at our world with fresh eyes, because they'll see things that the rest of us have missed.[/QUOTE]








And academia has become so specialized that an "expert" in one field may know little about related subjects.


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## Periwinkle

Hi everyone. I haven't posted in a while. Here's a question. My baby is over 9 months old now and I swear if I didn't keep him from crawling off our bed he would. This is a new experience for us, since our older dd and ds never got themselves into this kind of physical trouble before, but this baby has literally put his hand into thin air over the edge of the bed and save my lunging for his feet would have gone straight off.

Anyone else every experience something like this with their baby?


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## KateSt.

Peri-- all the time! I've been using the technique mentioned earlier on this thread of "Feet First" and I'll continue to show Finn until he gets it. I use this on the stairs too -- he seems to get it on the stairs but not so much on the bed.







We've performed many rescues here!

Misfitmama -- I finished Story of B and now am beginning My Ishmael. Talk about paradigm shifts! Thanks so much for turning me on to these!

To all CCish mamas-- I HIGHLY recommend reading Ishmael and the Story of B (misfitmama has a link to them a page or so back). It broadens the scope of the CC and opens up the mind in brand new ways.

The Story of B talks a bit about how we may tend to angelicize those of the "Leaver" cultures (like the Yequana) and go so far as to think that's the only way to live. I know I was doing that. Now I think that the Yequana may have done many things right (much more than our culture to be sure!) but their way is not the only way. One of the many important points of this book is that there is "more than one right way to live." As simple as that seems it was an eye-opener for me. I feel like I'm rambling with no point, but I guess it made me realize I can take what I like from CC and use that-- and what I don't like I can leave behind without any guilt of "not doing it right."
Anyway -- great reads! I think you mamas would LOVE them.


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pjlioness*
I keep forgetting that my agenda isn't necessarily my kids', especially when we have "somewhere to be".

Could you take us through a couple of examples (one where he accompanied you and one where he didn't)? I'd like to learn from your approach.

Thanks for the affirmation.







We have so many examples, I will try to give a few. I only have one child but I will offer a couple from my friend who lives consensually with two girls. Creating a support network is not something that happens quickly. I have only my husband, sister, and one babysitter as a resource. Each is available for a few hours each week. Which is a lot all together, I am grateful.

Our son is 4.5. He never was away from me until he was about 18 months and then only with his consent with my sister for 1-2 hours. Alone with dh only starting at about 2.5, for 1-2 hours, only with ds's consent. Now dh and ds can go out for the day without me, or I go out for the day without them, and ds has stayed the night with my sister twice, with ds's consent.

During that time, we have gone to the grocery store regularly, doctor visits, dentist visits, chiropractor visits, counseling visits, Home Depot, Walmart, the mall, dinner outings, work events, social outings, etc. Normal life except that I am SAHM. That choice certainly would limit many of our life choices. Granted, it would certainly expand many of our life choices too. Dh makes a comfortable income so that my working isn't critical. But at one point (during weeks of distress) ds wanted dada to stay home from work; and we discussed this significant financial alteration in order to find a mutually agreeable solution for all of us. I would have returned to work with a big cut in pay. We choose to live consensually together as a family where no individual's need is more or less important than another's.

For instance, I had a dental appointment at 9am, dh had a chiropractic appointment (elsewhere) at 8:10am. Dh was going to the chiro and then meet ds and me at the dentist office. Dh didn't sleep well as we were all awakened at 4:30 am by ds rising and shining EARLY. So, dh decided to cancel the chiro appt. (due to his own need for more sleep). [Point being that appointments _can be changed_ for adult benefit, AND children's spontaneous and unplanned needs too.] So, we are all planning on being at the dentist together; since obviously, a 4 year old can't play there for 45-90 minutes alone while I have my teeth cleaned, X-rayed, etc. And dh can leave directly from the dentist to go to work, instead of waiting for me to return home.

So, I *need* to leave for the dentist at 8:30 latest, with traffic and all. But, of course, ds wants to finish watching his video. Not dressed, not ready, etc. Therefore, I ask ds if he wants to come with me or stay with dada and come later to the dentist. Ds chooses to stay with dada at home. Ninety minutes later, no one has come to the dentist. So, I presume that they stayed home instead. But shortly thereafter, they both show up and when I am finished, I take ds home and dh goes on to work.

Another example is that I have a standing chiro appt. each Monday evening at 6:30 for some time now. Dh does dinner and child care, I go on to the Home Depot, Target, grocery store, etc. that evening. Since it is "scheduled" that helps make the transition easier. *Unless*, dh arrives home with only moments to spare for me to leave. This creates an issue for them to bond before I leave. His arrival home is very traffic dependent. So, sometimes ds doesn't want me to leave. I have cancelled a couple of appointments over the course of the year. Dh has gone for a couple and juggled his chiro appts. around and a few times I have been late. NO ONE DIED! I did have to wait longer for the people who were after me to go first since I was late. But, ds was able to have the transition time that he needed before I left. A few times, they have come with me or planned to come after I left and join me there. One time, they ended up staying home after ds needed to come too. But, ds was willing to come with dh after getting dressed while I went ahead to the appt. Another time, they joined me and we went out to dinner after my appt. Another time, dh and ds left shortly after I had, and went on to the library and home instead of coming on to the chiro, per mutual agreement.

We have had similar juggling when ds was going to stay with the babysitter (or my sister) and didn't want me to leave or needed dh to come home first, or just needed me to wait for a transition bonding time with the babysitter before I left. I have never left him (anywhere) when he didn't want me to leave. And generally, all that is necessary is to sit calmly and patiently with him and allow him to express his emotions and validate them and he then moves through them. The few times that I have been emphatic about needing to go NOW! have been disasters.







I learned that my impatience only leads to delays, not leaving more quickly. And he only stays with people he chooses and only as long as he desires.

For the ubiquitous grocery store outings, we have found mutually agreeable solutions to meet our needs for regular food purchasing and our son's needs to be with me (or dada) at home when he doesn't want to leave home. I have a wonderful dh.







All options are on the table: all three go to the store, dh and ds go to the store, ds and I go to the store, dh or I go to the store alone. We keep a running list of what is needed and before we hit 'desparately need to go' someone goes. If we run out of an item, any combination of us will go and pick up that and/or a few extra items. When we all go together is the most fun. Well, no maybe going alone is my preference.







Same with Home Depot, Walmart, Target, EarthFare, Natural Market Place, shoe store, wine store, gas station, etc.

For ds's doctor appointments, we make an appointment and discuss the upcoming event about 5 times in the weeks preceding the appt. We watched videos, read books, discussed what was involved, etc. I had gone to the appointment with ds alone twice and neither time worked as smoothly as I would like. So, dh came with us this last time. And it went like clock work. Getting out of the house those last few minutes was harry; but I or dh was planning on going ahead and get us 'checked in' while ds and dp came along thereafter as patiently (quickly) as possible. It is much easier to go *to* something fun (ie. Dada is there) than go to some unknown place and leave all one's fun stuff at home. Of course, we discuss and bring along activities appropriate to the environment to play with too. (Last year we took ds's guitar.







My definition of "appropriate" is whatever will get us out the door and not be totally disturbing to others when we get there. The guitar was a hit all around.







)

Hope this helps. Going to lunch with dada. Will write later about mult-children examples. Let me know if there are specific challenges or issues that have a pattern of difficulty and perhaps we can trouble shoot some possible solutions which would be mutually agreeable.

Pat


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## Periwinkle

Pat, thank you for your detailed post! It is always great to see such detail because when people say "we come to an agreement" you don't really know all that goes into it, and your examples really help illustrate the various ways families can compromise.

I have a question about your parenting approach (what to label it, not the approach itself! LOL). See, to me, what you described sounds a lot like TCS, which I do see as disctinct from CC and again distinct from AP. Of course you can do all/any







but for example, I AP most of all, CC somewhat (as much as makes sense in today's world), and TCS least of all (though I admit I need to learn more about it before making this call - I really only know what I've read online and never knew anyone IRL who would describe themselves as a TCS-er).

Am I making any sense?







Is this a disctinction others feel as well, or does it not really matter?


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## KateSt.

Not to speak for Pat, but I have read enough of her posts on many threads that I'll bet she labels her approach "Living Consensually." Which to me, sounds wonderful! Am I right, Pat?


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## mollyeilis

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
Hi everyone. I haven't posted in a while. Here's a question. My baby is over 9 months old now and I swear if I didn't keep him from crawling off our bed he would. This is a new experience for us, since our older dd and ds never got themselves into this kind of physical trouble before, but this baby has literally put his hand into thin air over the edge of the bed and save my lunging for his feet would have gone straight off.

Anyone else every experience something like this with their baby?









We took our bed off the frame, so it's pretty low. I know Eamon took a header or two, and was fine. Can't remember now if we were already showing him the feet-first way of getting off the bed, but I DO know that he got it pretty quickly after that. To the point where he was able to slide feet first off a TALL hotel bed shortly after figuring it out off our low bed.


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## WuWei

At this point, I consider my "umbrella" lifestyle: Living Consensually. I came from a totally mainstream punish/reward physical coercion upbringing. Before ds's birth I joined LLL and learned about Dr. Sears and AP. Choose to change the infant/parent dynamic to non-adversarial. After ds was born I read TCC and adopted the "trust" ds to know best what he needs and my mothering instinct kept me attuned to meeting his needs, as we were naturally an interdependent dyad. Subsequently, Unschooling was introduced to me and it seemed to be the same 'watch, follow, imitate, assist' philosophy of TCC. The hands-off and non-coercive approach of both were compatible and indistinguishable to me. At the same time I read about TCS, Non-coercive Parenting (NCP) and 'Life Learning'. which all seemed about the same but different than TCC in a more engaged parent/child dynamic.

The aspects of TCC that I embrace are not interferring with a child's self-trust, not imposing teaching or engagement and trusting that a child will learn through my modelling and his observation as a spectator and me as facilitator/resource. And I am confident that children desire to be harmonious social participants and attached to their community. I really don't perceive ds, dh and I as separate entities in the way that our independent minded culture promotes. So, there is no adult-centered:child-centered continuum to which we strive for a balance. We are an entity of a family. And interdependent family just as what affects one, affects the whole. Our goal is optimizing the health of the whole family unit and this is the natural order of community and social beings as the TCC tribe exists, imo. Not in a striving to meet individual needs way so much as a necessity to meet the needs of the whole family unit.

The process (not parenting philosophy or educational philosophy) to meet the needs of the whole family unit is to live with consent through seeking mutually agreeable solutions when an apparent conflict presents itself. We seek to identify the underlying needs, eaches' equally valid and create a solution that works for all of us. This differs from TCS in that there is no default to the youngest nor presumption that the child's needs supersede an adult's. Nor is it authoritarian adult-centered, obviously. We work to find win/win solutions which is how I perceive living in community functions optimally. We are constantly attuned and attentive to each other as inseparable from Self. Which is what the mother/child bond is only with older children and family included from my experience.

And this is also in line with my spiritual awareness of Taoism. The flow of energy connecting us to the Universe is also inseparable from us. There is no Self and Other.

Pat


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## flowers

Periwinkle,

We had the same issue and it was intense. He did fall 3 times, but luckily there was carpet so no serious damage. We just showed him feet first feet first over and over and he got it. Of course at the begining it just meant he flung himself off the bed attempting to turn his feet around but now there are no issues. When he started crawling he would even do feet first when he changed rooms (even with no step involved)...just incase!

I am very stimulated in the recent discussion. I would say we also look for win win situations, but I do work part- time which involves picking our little friend up at school...so I try to ease into the car. If I want (or need) to go somewhere I ask him to go outside (he loves going outside) but he is learning that if he wants to go outside he must have warm clothes on (it is New England...November)...then I leave a window of time open so he can play ouitside before we leave. Sometimes he wants to pretend to drive the car before he is ready to go into the carseat and 90% of the time we follow each others lead and this works out.

Things don't go "ideally" when I am disorganized, unprepared and pushing him into something wihtout his needs being considered (sleep etc.) I know that we leave everyday at 2:15 so I have been able to incorporate his needs and desires around this time.

What about the fact that sometimes living comunally people do not always "get their way". I have lived in a few different intentional well functioning communties and we practiced cooperative/consensus decision making. Everyone is heard but the community must make decisions for the whole and individuals understand that sometimes their idea is not the one picked by the community.

For example, we are going to go to an outdoor event Thanksgiving morning. Ds is going to have a ball running around interacting with people and looking at all the colorful winter gear etc. The time happens when people are dispersing and we are going to meet my parents and siblings for dinner but he does not want to go because he sees so many exciting things to explore. I have come to view this type of experience as one where he learns that other community members have needs (to get warm, go to the bathroom, eat etc). He might fuss and try to squiggle out of his seat as his way of saying this is what I want just like their are times when I am nursing him to sleep and squirming because I am ready to get up but he lets me know that he is not ready yet. I respect his need to have my attention and intimacy longer and he is learning that there are times when mommy needs us to leave or get dressed etc.

For the most part we are very "consensual" he can stay naked for as long as he likes, play in the garden until he is covered in mud etc. but I am curious what others reactions are to these ideas.


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## WuWei

We are feeling a sense of abundance in our family and keep hearing of so many moms on MDC who are struggling. If you too would like to share some of your holiday cheer, please see the "Moms in Need/Holiday Helper" thread in TAO: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=373747

Already 100 families in dire situations are requesting help to provide gifts, clothing, medication, etc. for their children's holidays. Some of the children are ill, some families are without an income, some are struggling to pay the electric bill. If you are in need too, please contact the organizer 'Spatulagirl' at that link.

Please pass the word. Gently used clothing, gift card contributions and postage assistance is needed. We need grateful families to share the love and help to take care of our own MDC tribe.

Thanks for any help. Even $1 will add up, if each is able to help a little, many will be helped alot.

Pat


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## KateSt.

Big BUMP!










Well, I am so excited, I had to share that my ds (now 11 mos) mastered the "feet first" technique of getting off the bed yesterday. We'd been doing this for months after first hearing about it on this thread, and lo and behold, he'd been paying attention!









At first I freaked out because I thought he was falling, but then as he scaled down the bedspread and kept crawling I realized he knew exactly what he was doing -- then I couldn't stop myself from applauding and lavishing praise all over him. He DID it! (And I don't care what Alfie Kohn would think.







)

On another train of thought, I do believe my dh thinks I'm the most "underprotective mother" he's ever seen.







I let Finn play at the edge of the steps, I let him put unmentionable things in his mouth (coins, olive pits, tacks!







). All supervised (for the most part), but I've also come to realize he JUST LIKES having things in his mouth, he's not interested in swallowing them. Someone posted here previously that "it doesn't feel right to swallow hard things. I trust that," and that really resonates with me.
Finn is, at 11 months, still exclusively breast fed -- I'll give him food that he reaches for and he loves to suck and chew it, but he'll spit it out after awhile. So, if he's not interested in swallowing food, I don't worry about him swallowing non-food items.

Sometimes I do wonder if I'm "too" trusting, as I've been accused of, but I've decided better to be that than too fearful (don't even get me started on carseats unless you want to pm me.







).

Just wondering if any of you mamas have been accused of the same?


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KateSt.*
Big BUMP!









Well, I am so excited, I had to share that my ds (now 11 mos) mastered the "feet first" technique of getting off the bed yesterday. We'd been doing this for months after first hearing about it on this thread, and lo and behold, he'd been paying attention!









At first I freaked out because I thought he was falling, but then as he scaled down the bedspread and kept crawling I realized he knew exactly what he was doing -- then I couldn't stop myself from applauding and lavishing praise all over him. He DID it! (And I don't care what Alfie Kohn would think.







)

On another train of thought, I do believe my dh thinks I'm the most "underprotective mother" he's ever seen.







I let Finn play at the edge of the steps, I let him put unmentionable things in his mouth (coins, olive pits, tacks!







). All supervised (for the most part), but I've also come to realize he JUST LIKES having things in his mouth, he's not interested in swallowing them. Someone posted here previously that "it doesn't feel right to swallow hard things. I trust that," and that really resonates with me.
Finn is, at 11 months, still exclusively breast fed -- I'll give him food that he reaches for and he loves to suck and chew it, but he'll spit it out after awhile. So, if he's not interested in swallowing food, I don't worry about him swallowing non-food items.

Sometimes I do wonder if I'm "too" trusting, as I've been accused of, but I've decided better to be that than too fearful (don't even get me started on carseats unless you want to pm me.







).

Just wondering if any of you mamas have been accused of the same?

Ok, the tacks and carseat have even *me* curious/worried. Don't post publicly, it might not be a good idea.









As you have probably seen 'if it *probably* will send ds to the ER' that is my guideline for intervention. As a nurse, I can't think of much worse than a child papoosed against his will for treatment and having to explain to social workers/DSS what happened. So, my fear of that moves me to intervene a bit before tacks in the mouth. Pennies are a biggie too because of the zinc (I believe) in them. If I recall correctly, other coins weren't as big an issue to swallow.

You made my heart skip a beat. Not wanting to step on toes, but wanted to throw my $0.02 in.









Yeah on the bedspread exit! Their heads _are_ hard but I held my breath while *trusting*. You do have Arnica Montana on hand don't you? I seriously *always* have it with me~everywhere.

Ds didn't eat anything until close to a year too, and not much until closer to 15+ months. The boy is a boob man to the core.









Pat


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## KateSt.

Okay, okay, well the tacks were *just* today and only *briefly* while I sat there and told him to only hold it gently in his mouth. And then after a minute I got freaked and held out my hand asking "can I have it?" Thankfully, he's very good at giving up stuff when I ask for it. I guess I'm not as hardcore as I made myself come across.








And when he holds pennies in his mouth I always ask to trade him for a quarter, and he does willingly.









The carseat thing, well I'm not totally opposed to them for obvious reasons, but still won't go into that other than pm'ing (for other obvious reasons







). I also use the "ER" guideline. Ever since my UC, I feel "the man" is building a case against me!










And yes, after your recommendation, I bought arnica pellets and topical gel. The gel completely healed a bad burn dh got cooking. Thank you!
Good to hear about your son not eating until 15 months, too!


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## WuWei

Wow! A UC first birth. Incredible.

Pat


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## flowers

KateSt.

Congratulations!!! I remember that feeling when ds first figured out feet first. I thought he was going to fly off the bed and as I lunged he wasalready down looking at me like I was crazy!









You sound a lot like me in the underprotective areas. Sometimes when I am with a group I start to feel weird b/c everyone is jumping up "attending" to ds "watch out!...don't touch that! he has something in his mouth!"...while I am just sitting there watching and intervening only if completely necessary.

Ds is SUCH A MOUTHER! He is now 15 months and still puts everything in his mouth. I like to think it is building his immunity and you know what he will hold things in his mouth for long periods of time and never swallow...my mother is just waiting for him to choke..always waiting for the choking.
I always laugh at myself at the playground when another mother shrieks and gets my attention wildly saying "he has sand in his mouth!!! AUUUGGHHH" MOst of the time I remove what he has for the sake of the other mother.

Anyways...still totally relating and proud of your feet first...enjoy the new freedom!









Hey KateST. did you hear Jeannine Parvati Baker died. I just found out...really intense.


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## KateSt.

Oh yea, THIS is why I never come to MDC before bed -- cause now I can't sleep!

I was thinking about my post and realizing I don't particulary LIKE being thought of as an "underprotective mother" because while I may be very trusting of my son's "amazing powers of self-preservation," in other areas I'm FIERCELY protective of his body and well-being. For these reasons I don't subject him to the doctor and unwanted/needed procedures, interventions. I won't subject him to the information I don't believe in in the school system, etc, etc. Because I care SO deeply about his well-being, I probably allow him more personal freedom than conventional mainstream.
Now, I'm just blathering, but I guess that's where I'm at right now at 1am.

Flowers, I know...so sad about JPB. What a soothing, inspirational voice she was. I'm happy to see you, though! Thanks for your post!! Yes, many people inform me of things ds "shouldn't" have in his mouth!

Pat, You bowing to ME? I am


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## pjlioness

I'm pretty lax about what I let the kids put in their mouths, as long as it's basically clean - we have had a thumbtack/straight pin or two, under close supervision. I let them mouth my rings on the changing table when they were babies. Alex choked (not just gagged) on a quarter ONCE about 3 years ago. I was there and did the Heimlich...worked like a charm. Absolutely no other problems.

The topic of chokable objects comes up periodically on the CCList, and it's always nice to knowI am not alone.

Kate St.:

I am also FIERCELY protective of my kids bodies and well-being. Many other people just don't get that, because I'm not protective in a mainstream way.


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## flowers

Funny I am the same the way...I could be viewed as underprotective if you did not know me and where watching me on the playground BUT I too am fiercely protective of his health, body, his birth. I like your choice of words...fierce. In the wild it is the mothers that you have to watch out for b/c they fiercely protect their babes. I know the feeling.


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## WuWei

Yes, sheltered from the mainstream unnecessary ills of the world, but not the natural/physical world.







Avoiding schools, doctors, etc. too.

I have *seen* children fall directly BECAUSE someone said *'watch out'*, *'be careful'*, *'look* at your feet', etc. When a child has the peace of his own mind and body to listen to, he is much safer than if others are intruding on his self-awareness and _distracting him_.







Self Trust is more protective than Self Doubt. I just keep consciously and actively working at *not interfering* with ds's inherent Self Trust.

I don't believe that we need to be protected from personal freedom......unfortunately this seems to be a popular idea in our culture.

Pat


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## EnviroBecca

Count me in the "not underprotective, but not so paranoid about some things" club!







EnviroBaby has a number of toys that are "not toys" or are marked "not for children under 3 years old". He's demonstrated that he uses most things safely. He's never choked on any of those things, only on crackers. (Now he knows why we don't eat crackers while lying on our backs and hasn't tried it again.) There ARE some things that I don't want him to have, for instance a ball my mom gave him that's made from tiny plasticfoam pellets in very thin stretchy fabric--a good nip w/his new little teeth could send those pellets right into his lungs. And I try to discourage him from playing with the sharp can lids from the recycling bin or whacking a drinking glass against the oven door...but I don't rush over shrieking when I see him exploring something like that, and I do let him DRINK from a glass glass which a lot of people find appalling.

I don't think I've posted about this yet (too lazy to read back thru the thread): Since he began crawling, we've realized just how strongly he prefers to be near us. People keep yammering about how we "have to" childproof everything because he'll wander off and try to kill himself. In fact, it's very rare for him to leave the room where I am unless he's going to the room where EnviroDaddy (or someone else, like a guest trying to use the bathroom







: ) is. When he awakens and finds himself alone in bed, he calls and cries until someone appears, or if he's fully rested and wide awake he climbs down from the bed and goes looking for us. Usually we hear the pitter-patter of little knees and come to greet him, but if we don't he NEVER goes into the bathroom and drowns in the toilet or goes into the adult bedroom and wreaks havoc in my desk drawers; if he doesn't see us in those rooms, he goes to the top of the stairs and waits a while, and if we don't appear (for example, if EnviroDaddy's not home and I'm in the basement doing laundry) he starts down the stairs. He is really good at stairs.







Because he likes to be where we are, it's easy to supervise him. Of course, sometimes when we're moving around he wants to lead the journey in a different direction, but if we don't follow he'll stop just out of sight, complain a bit, then come back.

On the topic of things put into the mouth, and also of teaching "the ways of our tribe": All babies are messy eaters due to lack of coordination, and all babies experiment w/gravity, but (despite what many people have told me) not all babies waste massive quantities of food by purposely flinging it all over the place. EnviroBaby has seen that his parents pick up food that gets on the floor or their laps, inspect it, and decide whether to eat it or put it in the trashcan, so he does that too.


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## kamesennin

I'm with everyone else on the "letting the babies explore" type deal as well. Micah picks up all kinds of little things off the floor, and just wants to hold them in her fingers and inspect them. Like my little seed beads that sometimes fall on the floor, a little loose bell, or a dime that she wants to hold between her two fingertips. I don't see what is wrong with that when I am right there watching. And she does give them back eventually, without a fuss, AFTER she is done looking and touching. To yank those things away would just be mean, I think.

Too cool that envirobaby has mastered the stairs!! Micah is still learning how to go down, LOL.

Does anybody have horrible nightmares about tvs falling on babies? I think that is my biggest fear, when we get a house, we are NOT having a tv for specifically that reason!!!
Liane


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## Periwinkle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca*
On the topic of things put into the mouth, and also of teaching "the ways of our tribe": All babies are messy eaters due to lack of coordination, and all babies experiment w/gravity, but (despite what many people have told me) not all babies waste massive quantities of food by purposely flinging it all over the place.

Amen to that. I have said many times that there are plenty of ways my babies can learn about gravity and finger painting without being disrespectful of the food we are fortunate enough to be able to provide them. Starving children don't drop food from their plates that's for sure.

My 3 1/2 year olds learned very quickly that we don't play with food. I was always very gentle about it but firm, saying "Please keep the toast on your tray" or whatever a couple of times and then if they kept it up, getting them down from the table for a minute or so since they obviously weren't hungry (if they were hungry and gestured to get back up then up they went). When they were older, they would help me clean up anything they dropped before continuing with their meal. It was never a problem for us. Now my 11.5 month old is starting to experiment with mashing food etc. on his tray and I am handling it the same way with great success.

On a different note, I thought it was really interesting what EnviroBecca wrote about how her baby always wants to be around her. I have noticed that too with each of my three kids. My baby (almost 1) will crawl into the kitchen but will never venture too far afield. When I walk to the front of the house, I'll say "Come on along with Mama!" and walk slowly enough for him to follow and sure enough he does 99% of the time. I never play "chase the baby" with him either -- I think a baby crawling like a bullet away from his mama is just not something I want to teach him.


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## EnviroBecca

Quote:

I never play "chase the baby" with him either -- I think a baby crawling like a bullet away from his mama is just not something I want to teach him.








The babysitter's 7yo likes to chase him and have him chase her. Sometimes when I arrive to pick him up, he crawls away at top speed, chortling, as if he thinks I'm going to play that game. He will even go two rooms away when there's nobody in those other rooms. BUT he never does that at home. He understands it's a game that happens at the babysitter's.


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## WendyC

Dh and I have taken a very simalar stance to the CC concept - where we are just pretty much hands off in Ella's exploration. I haven't read the book but I have to wonder sometimes, am I doing the right thing?

Background: Dh's family are all adreline junkies - except him, he felt like because he was so tighly wrangled as a baby/child and contantly screamed at or panicked when attempting to do slightly dangerous things that it caused him to be way too cautious and he deals with lots of fears and whatnot today. His brothers (younger - not wrangled in the LEAST) are race car drivers and one is a fighter pilot for the Air Force - their father was a professional motorcycle racer.

So Miss Ella seems to have gotten one of those genes - She is 11 months old, and FEARLESS. Compounding this is an UNbelivable natural talent for cordination. She sat up at 3 months, started walking at 8 and now at 11 months is climbing, running, dancing - its unreal! She is also teeny teeny tiny (18 pounds - 5th percentile) so she totally looks like a freak of nature.

This child is doing crazy things - she climbs onto the coffee table, dances - jumps over to the couch rolls off - runs into the next room - runs back - climbs up the bookcase, etc. etc.... So, as a concious choice, I let her - I stand back and don't say anything and she pretty much (knock on wood) never gets hurt.

Yesterday I hosted a Mom's group of AP moms at my house and Ella uses this time to really show off all her skills and all the other mom's jaws are dropping - eyes big as saucers - and exclaim "I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU ARE LETTING HER DO THAT!!!" So I am afraid they all think I am a negligent mother now. And I have to wonder - am I? Is this wrong?? Should I be teaching her to be afraid of things like heights and falls and whatnots?? My confidence was really shaken yesterday.... what do you guys think? Am I crazy for letting her go?

See blog for pics of Ella in action - (link in siggy)


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## mollyeilis

Hey, if she has the skills AND coordination, then count yourself lucky!







My guy wanted to do things, and had the brute strength to do things, but the coordination was a bit lacking at first. Made things interesting.

The reaction at your playgroup is pretty much the reason I don't do playgroups! I mean, the other women are probably at home thinking "why can't MY kid do those things?" and you're at home thinking "maybe I'm bad for letting her do those things"...playgroups are good for no one. IMO.









Anyway, what would the alternative be? Hold her all the time? Tie her down? Sounds like she's going to do stuff anyway, right?

Right now I "let" my son do quite a lot, within my own definition of reason. And my own definition usually doesn't involve perceived danger, but rather, perceived annoyance, pulling things down, breaking my stuff...that sort of thing that wouldn't be a bit of a bother if I lived in the jungle. sigh at self.

So he climbs up to the entertainment center and that's OK, but when he starts messing with the computer, I take him down. And then he gets back up, as he is doing at this moment, and so I just moved my coffee, and will likely move HIM once he starts trying to type, too.

Oh, here he goes!

Anyway, we've consistently found that when we hold DS back (different to hold him back vs let him do and then take him down), that's exactly when he's going to hurt himself. And I question if it's him hurting himself, since we're interfering.









I just wonder what the other playgroup mothers would have you do....









Funny, we've had almost the opposite problem...DS has been big and tall for his age, so people thought he was *less* adept than he should be. Freaked out older kids b/c they thought he was their age, but was being so babyish, and weirded out adults, too. Whereas you have a little bitty thing who appears even more beyond her age....I wonder what it would be like to have an average-sized kid!


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## Crystal_clear

Quote:

Background: Dh's family are all adreline junkies - except him, he felt like because he was so tighly wrangled as a baby/child and contantly screamed at or panicked when attempting to do slightly dangerous things that it caused him to be way too cautious and he deals with lots of fears and whatnot today.
You definitely should read the book! She goes into great detail about how different behaviors (daredevil stuff, addictions, being a slob, etc) are about seeking the feeling of bliss one should have felt in the arms of mother as an infant. It's all about trying to get what we were deprived of earlier in life.

Quote:

Yesterday I hosted a Mom's group of AP moms at my house and Ella uses this time to really show off all her skills and all the other mom's jaws are dropping - eyes big as saucers - and exclaim "I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU ARE LETTING HER DO THAT!!!" So I am afraid they all think I am a negligent mother now. And I have to wonder - am I?
I would be more afraid that their reactions would have a negative impact on your dd that hinders her and gives her different expectations to live up to.









Also, when I'm talking TCC stuff with other AP mamas, I always make a point of letting them know that TCC is the root of attachment parenting as we know it, before it was twisted into the child-centered phenomenon we see today. This book is where Dr. Sears got many of his beliefs, but he left out some very important points that have had (IMO) a detrimental effect on the parent-child dynamic.

When I'm recommending the book, I usually tell people that the beginning can be a difficult read, but to stick with it because it starts getting really good at chapter 3. Or to skip to chapter 3, and go back to the earlier stuff afterwards.


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## rzberrymom

I'm new and would love to join this thread. I read the book while I was pregnant, and both my husband and I were blown away by it. I read through all the posts months ago--I came back because I now have a walking/talking 12 month old and I've had to re-read the book in order to think clearly about this new reality. I'm finding it a bit more difficult to weave TCC into my life with a toddler than it was with an infant (which always just felt so natural, right and obvious).

I'm so thankful for the book recommendations, because I hadn't found anything that really fit--when reading the Sears discipline book, I find myself saying "but, that's not very continuum!" and I sometimes feel the same way over at the GD forum.

I'm living in Europe (in the Netherlands), and I find it a great place to see some TCC practices at work (not that they would label it TCC). Did anyone catch the article in Mothering a few months ago about a woman who lived in the Czech Republic and her experiences at playgrounds and how fearless the culture is? My daughter is in a playgroup with kids from all over (the Netherlands, Germany, Portugal, Finland, Belgium, France), and these kids really are allowed to do just about anything, no matter how dangerous. I've watched 3-year olds climb about 30 feet in the air on a rickety ladder with no mat underneath (most of the indoor play areas seem to have these rickety ladders--the kids love them). I've seen a 2 1/2 year old scale the outside of this cage looking thing on top of a slide--must have been 20 feet off the ground. The young kids watch and do as the older kids do, and the parents don't bat an eye.

The parents live fearlessly too. Newborns are carried in Baby Bjorn-type front packs on the parents' bicycles--through the rain, the snow, 25 degree temperatures. As soon as the babies can sit up on their own, they get their own seat on the front of the bicycle--you should have seen my 6-month old squealing with delight on her first bike rides! I've seen threads in other forums about how kids should never be on a bike until they're at least 2, and it gives me the giggles after watching the delight over here.

By around 3, the kids get their own bikes and are expected to keep up. Families cycle all over together on the weekends, and I've often watched them closely to see how well it works to have this expectation of the kids.

As a result, the kids here are more independent and take MUCH more responsibility than I've ever seen in the U.S.. The sweetest moment I've had was at an ice skating rink--a teenage boy came up to me (maybe 15 years old) and fawned over my baby, told me how lovely he thought she was and how much fun she seemed to be having--he talked to me like a thoughtful adult, not like the typical image of a cool, rebellious, aloof teenager.

There's lots more, but just thought I'd throw out the Europe experience for thought.

Crystal_Clear mentioned "I would be more afraid that their reactions would have a negative impact on your dd that hinders her and gives her different expectations to live up to."

I totally agree--I saw this in action with DH's cousin's daughters (who happen to be German)--they are the most curious, wild, wonderful, adventurous kids I've ever seen. While they were in the U.S. and visiting my MIL's house, she was shrieking in fear, yelling "I can't believe they're doing that!" and "look out! Be careful!" After each of these outbursts, I could see the fear on their faces, and even their body posture would change. Plus, they would kind of look fearfully at their dad, as if confused as to what was expected of them. It broke my heart, and I hadn't even read TCC at that point.

Anway, I'm so glad to find you all!


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## Dulcealegria

Hi I will aso like to join this thread. I start doing tcc without reallying khowing I was doing it....and you know I am the happiest woman on the corner. Its great, finding that theres people who make it.

The first year of being mother was stress, because it was not easy to find mothering.com, to find people that follow tcc and that they suggest it is an alternative to the "so normal" culture.

TO MOLLYELLIS for me your dd seams normal and it is great all what she is experience. Congrats!!!! I will try to find mothers that follow your mothering style that help a lot to me. The "normal" protected playgroups did not help me and my ds. We just dont click. I still bf, which for me is normal and on the playgroups they look at me like ahhhhggrrr what is that?? But know that I have found some womens that have my mothering style its great. We let the dc do what they have to experienced. of course we are observing and thrusting. I must say my ds have fell down sometimes, eventhough I am near but I tried that he falls the least.

On my house, which is not really big or children friendly, If there is something vauable that I do not want him to take, then is out of sight. Nad the rest is there where he can touch, play and learn. YES sometimes things have to go to the thrash...but we try to live with it.

Maria


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## Ellien C

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Crystal_clear*
You definitely should read the book! She goes into great detail about how different behaviors (daredevil stuff, addictions, being a slob, etc) are about seeking the feeling of bliss one should have felt in the arms of mother as an infant. It's all about trying to get what we were deprived of earlier in life.

I want to chime in here that that is also the part of the book where she makes some unfortunate assumptions about homosexuality. In my opinion that's where she oversteps and starts really reaching. I'm not sure an enjoyment of rollercoasters stems from some kind of deprived in-arms experience. Perhaps we are simply wired to enjoy adrenaline rushes every now and again and in our modern society, that's a convenient way to get the rush. Or maybe some people just like rollercoasters and no explanation is needed. Anyway, I do enjoy the book, but I tell people to take it with a grain of salt and that's one of the parts I'm thinking of.


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## henhao

HI all,

I've been wondering where this thread was located for months!

I'm new to this thread and will post more when I have more time. Hi for now...and a question.

How do I teach DD feet first? It sounds like a safe way to teach her to get off the bed.

I searched this forum for the phrase "feet first" and was not able to find the initial post that mentions it.

TIA!
HH


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## rzberrymom

Quote:

How do I teach DD feet first?
With DD, we just sort of went through the whole motion with her--showed her to turn around and get on to her belly with her feet sticking out over the edge of the bed, and then push her way back until she touched the floor. Each time we'd show her, we'd repeat "feet first, feet first." Then if I saw her going head first, I'd just say "feet first" and she'd turn around and go through the routine.

It seems almost instinctual--they pick it up really fast!

HTH


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## henhao

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom*
With DD, we just sort of went through the whole motion with her--showed her to turn around and get on to her belly with her feet sticking out over the edge of the bed, and then push her way back until she touched the floor. Eac
HTH


Thanks!

Happy bday to your babe.














She beautiful -- and so is your bathroom design.


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## mollyeilis

We modeled the behaviour, taking the time to get off the bed (which was mattress and box spring directly on the floor) in the way we wanted DS to.

He got it in one session, if I recall correctly, and later showed us that he could apply it to much taller beds at hotels, to couches, and nowadays, to playground structures.


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## pjlioness

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ellien C*
I want to chime in here that that is also the part of the book where she makes some unfortunate assumptions about homosexuality. In my opinion that's where she oversteps and starts really reaching.

See http://www.continuum-concept.org/rea...sexuality.html


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## rzberrymom

Thanks henhao!


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## Zannalyn

hi all!
I just read CC last month, and loved it! So much of what she ways rings true to me. I rarely put ds down when he was an infant. It was so nice to read how important that is. funny thing: a couple times when I did put him down on the floor or bed and briefly left the room, I came back to find our old black cat (who has since passed on







) sitting near the baby and giving me a rather disapproving look. _He_ knew the baby shouldn't be alone.

Now that ds is a toddler, I remind myself not to hover. He really does have good instincts. For example, he once accidentally touched the radiator in the fall, when we'd just turned the heat on, and since then he knows exactly what "hot" means, and hasn't had a problem.

As soon as he was able to creep across the bed, when he got to the edge I would turn him around, saying "The Wise Baby goes feet first!", touching his feet down with the last two words. Sometimes if he seemed to be forgetting, dh or I would say "how does the wise baby get off the bed?" and he would turn right around. He learned it quickly and well.







I occasionally say "feet first" as a reminder at the top of slides and such.


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## cheery

yeah i think i started saying "how do we get off the bed" back at around 8 or 9 months and she was able to remember every time. she really loved being able to do it, too.


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## PrincessDoll

It's funny but as I read this, I realize that DH is practicing CC and he hasn't read the book...lol I think I read too much sometimes...can't help it though. DS has just started trying to get down from couch/bed/etc and dh began with "feet first" and it appears ds is getting it. Now I am reading it on this thread....lol

Anyway, I have a question, I did wear ds quite a bit but I know that he didn't spend enough time in-arms. He is 10 months old now and at times he is very independent and can play by himself as long as I am nearby fine. Then at other times, he seems to want to be in my arms and only my arms. I don't always pick him up because he is a bit heavier now (24 pounds starts feeling like 100 after a while). Has anyone else experienced this? Did you just start carrying baby when he showed this behavior? IF I just carried him when he requested and continued with what I was doing, would that help him feel satisfied with the inarms stage?

I am actually in the process of finishing the book btw


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## PrincessDoll

One other question, how is tcc different from ap? I thought they were bascally the same thing.


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## mommaof3

child-centeredness is a huge difference I can think of right off the bat...

http://continuum-concept.org/reading/whosInControl.html


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## kamesennin

My dd is 1 year (only 20 pounds, though) and I still wear her A LOT. This really helps with getting her to take good naps and also at night when she will just not calm down at all for rest. When I do not carry her at all (like all day) I can really tell and try to make up for it the next day by keeping her in the carrier when she is content to watch me clean, cook, etc. At 24 pounds a mei tai style carrier or an Ergo or Patapum with more hip support could easily work well for you. Or a wrap like a Didymos provides great support on both shoulders. I can only carry dd on my back for long periods of time so these carriers are great for that. You can look at www.thebabywearer.com for more ideas for carrying big babies--I am sure you can find something that will work! I think babywearing goes hand in hand with the CC.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrincessDoll*
It's funny but as I read this, I realize that DH is practicing CC and he hasn't read the book...lol I think I read too much sometimes...can't help it though. DS has just started trying to get down from couch/bed/etc and dh began with "feet first" and it appears ds is getting it. Now I am reading it on this thread....lol

Anyway, I have a question, I did wear ds quite a bit but I know that he didn't spend enough time in-arms. He is 10 months old now and at times he is very independent and can play by himself as long as I am nearby fine. Then at other times, he seems to want to be in my arms and only my arms. I don't always pick him up because he is a bit heavier now (24 pounds starts feeling like 100 after a while). Has anyone else experienced this? Did you just start carrying baby when he showed this behavior? IF I just carried him when he requested and continued with what I was doing, would that help him feel satisfied with the inarms stage?

I am actually in the process of finishing the book btw


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## rzberrymom

How do you all put your baby/toddler to work?

DD is SOOO much happier when she's doing work just like we are, and so I'm hoping to get some ideas from you all. So far, she helps us sort laundry, put it in the machine, water the plants, and scrub the dishes a little bit. I wear her on my back when I do dishes and vacuum. We also have a garden, but it won't be warm enough here for that for another few months.

She can't really stand on a chair yet to help in the kitchen--I tried putting her in the highchair to help, but that didn't go over very well. I leave bowls and spoons on the floor, but she seems to know it's not the real thing. I lived in Africa for several years, and I was thinking that most of the food preparation and cooking goes on at a baby's level. Has anyone brought the chopping, mixing and such down to ground level? How did that go?

Any other ideas for putting her to work?


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## Girl Named Sandoz

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Butterflymom*
Just wondering how many other un-schoolers observing this thread?







:

My DS is 3.5 so we are not 'officially' home educating yet, but I see us as having unschooled from birth.

I'm not really into labelling our education style, but I think relaxed ecclectic (eccentric?







) just about covers it.









For us, home education and TCC go together extremely well.









So happy to find so many other CC parents on this thread.


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## mollyeilis

Have you guys read either the article, or the thread about the article, here?

It makes some good points, and I don't want to ARGUE with it, but coming from a CC perspective, a couple of the points don't feel quite right to me.

The whole "a kid is a kid" thing...since when? Since the 1950s? In America? A child growing up on a farm is going to help with the farm to an extent. A child in a "less civilized"







:







place is going to help the family to an extent. IMO it's only been recently that kids have gotten to do nothing but play with large plastic toys, doing nothing to help out.

My son is 21 months, and he LOVES to help us. We were folding laundry, and he was taking the folded clothes and putting them in the bedroom. I had a pile of old socks and shirts that I'm going to donate or use in another way, and he decided they needed to be put away, so he stuffed them in a drawer. Should I not let him help in a way he loves, and rather let him "be a child"? I don't think so.









It goes into the number 1 point, of expecting too much...but how do we know what is too much unless we find out? If we never asked DS to bring a piece of folded laundry to the room (to keep him from throwing it across the room) we wouldn't know how much he enjoys being PART of things. If we figured "he's not even two, he can't do that so we won't ask it of him", none of us would know! And he'd go on throwing folded clothes around and we'd be frustrated, sitting on and putting our legs across stacks of clothes to keep him from them...rather than have the fun harmony.









Just now he took his piece of bread, which he was done with, and put it on the kitchen counter (we do have the kitchen gated but he can reach a bit of counter and the fridge). Putting his food "away". Who knew that a 21 month old would or could do that? Then he brushed his hands together like "that was a hard job", smiled, and went off to play on a chair. Oops, and fall. BRB. Oh, he came over and hugged me, and went back to the chair.

Anyway, what do you guys think? The rest of the article seems fine, though sometimes it bothers me to read "we" do this and that, when I don't do those things, and it annoys me.







:


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## Periwinkle

I was also surprised by the "we" ask children to do too much aspect. IMO, we ask children to do too little. FAR too little.

My kids have been setting the table, clearing dishes, watering plants, sweeping/dustbusting (the latter is their favorite thing), sorting and folding laundry, cleaning up, etc., etc. since around the time they started to toddle. They seem to have a natural desire to pitch in and participate in the adult world and why would I want to stifle that. I do agree that expecting a 2 year old to "sit still" and make a bed with military corners is ridiculous but then again so is expecting a 2 year old to do nothing all day but watch TV and play with plastic junk, kwim? Two year olds are bright, capable little ones who, at least in my experience, are willing and able to do all sorts of things (in a fun, respectful, gentle way of course) to help out in the family.

My youngest, 12 months old (and not yet walking), hasn't yet developed the ability to help out, but recently I've noticed he is starting to want to tag along when I wash dishes, do laundry, etc. instead of just playing nearby. He is starting to be interested in what I'm doing, instead of just hanging out in the sling or playing with his own toys near me while I do chores. My guess is that within a few months he will be able to do rudimentary things like empty the clothes in the dryer into the laundry basket, consistently help pick up his toys (even if only a little) before nap, even help me "clean" with a damp cloth (my twins used to do this -- they loved it).


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## mollyeilis

Thinking of getting off the bed...

Until just recently, we had a mattress/boxspring combo on the floor. Done for me postpartum, but it worked for DS too. We taught him feet first very early, and he got it in one "session".

We travel with him, and we like to stay at snazzy hotels, where they ALWAYS have very tall beds. Well it just took one "uh oh this bed is taller than I thought!" moment (that we were there for) for him to get that some beds are different, and now he always holds on extra tight to the covers on a new bed. He's fallen on his bum a few times from miscalculating when to let go, but that's what the squishy CDs are for, right?









So now we have a big king sized bed with a boxspringy thing, and that base is on 4 inch legs. It's not as high as the big hotel beds, but taller than our old one. Took him about 2 minutes to figure it out. Getting up into it is a different story, he's still figuring that out, but getting out isn't a problem. But it seems to weird out our friends! They look at it, look at him, and I think they're thinking "hmm, how on earth does he get out of that bed safely?" Sometimes I'll plop him up there and let them see.


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## mollyeilis

*Periwinkle* you reminded me of two other things DS does!

We recently gave in and handed him the dustbuster. At first he just banged it around, trying to move it (it's heavy with the battery on it) around. Then one day he snagged it while I was actively using it, and he went around vacuuming things up. He'd move bits of cereal to where he wanted to stand, and sucked them up. It was so cool. Nothing inappropriate got sucked up.









Yeah, it still gets banged, then again, that's why we got Black and Decker, because we think the stuff can handle rough handing.

And laundry, he's ALWAYS tagged along. Helps that the machines are 5 steps from the living room, right off the kitchen.







He was either in the podegi, watching over my shoulder, or being held (my gosh that's tiring, taking things out one at a time while holding baby), but as soon as he could stand and found the dryer, he loved it. So he'll stand there, waiting for me to hand him things to put in the dryer. It's so fun. Yep, slows things down, but then again, going slow makes it far less likely that my cute underwear end up in the dryer!


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## Ellien C

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollyeilis*
Have you guys read either the article, or the thread about the article, here?
.....
Anyway, what do you guys think? The rest of the article seems fine, though sometimes it bothers me to read "we" do this and that, when I don't do those things, and it annoys me.







:

I'm not sure where the article was originally published or why it was written, but perhaps from the format it was for a mainstream parenting magazine. They seem to like short - 10 things you do wrong articles or 7 ways to better whatever formats. I'm not a big magazine reader for that reason.

So, don't take too much offense at the article. Just assume she's not writing for the "AP" set.

My child is 3 and it isn't quite working out as perfectly as JL describes in her book but we are getting along.

Around 15-18 months she really started to help out around the house.
I remember her carrying dishes to the dishwasher in a condo we rented in May - so she would have been 15 months old! It seems so young now, but she really did that. MIL was actually delighted at the whole thing. And she started to empty the laundry and carry it over to the drier.

But sometime around 2.5 those things started to stop. I think that is the age where children start to "individuate" meaning they really understand that they are separate from momma and have CHOICES. They don't HAVE to do things - they can say NO. They can let you go by yourself and can still exist separately. We're kind of in that phase now at 3. She helps sometimes, but not at all like she did when she was younger.

I take this to be phase and will continue on with "Parent Leadership." Ie: if she won't help, I just do it myself with a neutral attitude. Its OK if she helps and OK if not.

We didn't have any problems with roads or her running away or falling off the edge of the dock into the water or into the pool. Well - once last summer she go into the pool, but we fished her right out. She knew the edge was there, but didn't realize it was as deep as it was. I just smiled and reflected how surprised she must have been. I didn't make a big deal of it.

Just wanted to let you know that the cooperation might stop at some point, but I expect it will come back again and that is normal at least in our modern society.


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## mommaof3

I noticed that the less I ASK my children to help, the more they help. They help NOT to please me but just because it feels good, because they want to contribute to the well-being of the family (we ALL do!). One of the basic premises of TCC in my mind is that children are social creatures who desire to contribute in meaningful ways, and the other is that we westerners have given the word/concept of WORK a bad name, unnecessarily. Work is wonderful, fun, etc. and meets a very real need (in all of us) to contribute.

My kids do lots around the house, in the garden, the workshop, etc. but I don't ASK or tell them to, ever. I just do what I need to do, modeling is SO powerful -I expect them to help (just hand my son his rake, or hand my daughter a grocery bag, wordlessly) and I don't make a big deal if they choose to help or choose not to...saying "oh, thank you so much for helping", etc. makes it seem like they did something UNUSUAL, that you didn't expect them to do, ya know?


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## mommaof3

Sounds like you're doing just great!
When they're little, I also wear my babies on my back in a Mei Tai or Ergo while I work, and when they get to be standing well, we put them in The Learning Tower in the kitchen, and give them their own dishes to wash, food to prepare, etc., by the time my second son was 2.5, he was making his own scrambled eggs.

Here's the link to The Learning Tower:
http://www.littlepartners.com/

I've found it invaluable! My older kids use it for a theater, shop, etc. too

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom*
How do you all put your baby/toddler to work?

DD is SOOO much happier when she's doing work just like we are, and so I'm hoping to get some ideas from you all. So far, she helps us sort laundry, put it in the machine, water the plants, and scrub the dishes a little bit. I wear her on my back when I do dishes and vacuum. We also have a garden, but it won't be warm enough here for that for another few months.

She can't really stand on a chair yet to help in the kitchen--I tried putting her in the highchair to help, but that didn't go over very well. I leave bowls and spoons on the floor, but she seems to know it's not the real thing. I lived in Africa for several years, and I was thinking that most of the food preparation and cooking goes on at a baby's level. Has anyone brought the chopping, mixing and such down to ground level? How did that go?

Any other ideas for putting her to work?


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## PrincessDoll

At what point does the parent say "You must do as I say" if the parent is trying to apply TCC principles to modern society? I'd like to hear what your feedback is on that.

Also, I do understand that it is important to allow a baby to be a part of the family's life instead of having the family be part of the baby's life. I actually used to feel quite guilty that I didn't give him attention at times. However, at what point is it too little attention - I hated being treated like I was insignificant and invisible just because I was a child growing up.


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## mamarhu

I can't think of any time I have needed to say, "You must do as I say" without explaining the reason for the rule. In an emergency, I could promise to explain later, and the Dumplings would trust my judgement enough to wait. For normal day-to-day life, we have as few rules as possible. My relationship with my kids is not much different than with any other friend. If I see them screwing up, I am likely to say something like, "Is this really how you mean to be (acting, dealing with this, behaving, or whatever)?" "What is your goal? Do you see this as a way to accomplish that?"

Related story from last week: At a neurologist appointment with my son, the doc asked, "Does he obey the family rules?" DS said, "We don't have any rules". I said, "Sure we do; we just don't need to talk about them. For example, you never leave the house without telling me where you are going". Him: "That's not a rule; that's just being considerate, and you do the same for me". This is what I mean by never having to say "You MUST".


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## mommaof3

CC isn't about controlling kids, or getting them to "obey" and do what parents want them to do, it's more about relationship and connection, which in turn makes life with children easier. My kids follow the family/societal rules because they respect me, and they respect me because I respect them. Have you read TCC?
It sounds like you're more interested in what some call "gentle discipline", and there's a forum for that on MDC. Some of my favorite resources are:

websites that have articles and other short things to read:

http://www.naturalchild.org/home/

http://www.parentleaders.org/articles.html

http://www.empathic-discipline.com

http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/ptarticles.htm

http://cnvc.org/

http://www.naomialdort.com/

books:

Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves by Naomi Aldort

Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn

Nonviolent Communication: A Language of Compassion by Marshall Rosenberg, and also Raising Children Compassionately.

Smart Love by Martha Heineman Pieper, Ph.D. and William Joseph Pieper, MD.

Becoming the Parent You Want to Be by Laura Davis and Janis Keyser.

Parent Effectiveness Training by Dr. Thomas Gordon

Kids, Parents, and Power Struggles by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka
This book is extremely helpful to understand your child's temperament and what they may be experiencing. Huge variety of excellent ways to avoid, calmly handle, and diffuse power struggles. Also by the same author is Raising Your Spirited Child.

Playful Parenting by Lawrence J. Cohen
"Play is children's way of exploring the world, communicating deep feelings getting close to those they care about, working through stressful situations, and simply blowing off steam". This is a wonderfully positive book that really focuses on connection with your children.

How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish
A classic, in my opinion- very practical, do-able advice- easy to read and understand and apply. A perfect respectful discipline starter-book.


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## mollyeilis

"CC isn't about controlling kids, or getting them to "obey" and do what parents want them to do, it's more about relationship and connection, which in turn makes life with children easier."

Well, I read the question not as asking where that sort of thing goes with CC, but rather, are there any things in your life where "you must do it", and how do you deal with that?

For me, that comes into play with safety things that I can't seem to resolve by trusting him. Sometimes he just does NOT seem to have the sense the yequanas seemed to have. He would get right to the edge of the bed, and twice he DID fall back onto the ground. After that, I kept a hand ready. He wants to get into cabinets and throw things around. That doesn't start with safety, but once a couple china plates get broken, it could result in bleeding. So we locked the cabinets, and once he figured out how to open them, we put a gate up.

Car seats are another aspect for me. I do not wish to spend all day figuring out how to convince him to get into his seat, and I'm not going to have him roaming the car while I'm driving. So, sometimes, he goes into it without actually wanting to. That's harder on me than it is on him (we're both crying at the time, but 2 minutes after we hit the road I'm still wiping away my tears, nursing my sore back, while he's giggling at his reflection in the mirror) and I do NOT like doing it, but it doesn't go within CC (or some peoples' versions of GD where they will stand at the car forever, or decide not to go etc) even though sometimes it goes within our lives. (luckily ever since Safeway put out their organic line of crackers, the car seat is a much happier place)

I don't even know if MY answer here is what the PP is looking for, or if it makes sense.

I do know that I'm not perfect at CC, but then again, my world is a lot different than the world described in CC.

I read that article posted about CC, and she mentions drawing in crayon on the wall, but didn't explain how to show the child not to (or if we should simply enjoy the art LOL). It's a glaring omission! Or maybe it's just "up" for us right now.


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## PrincessDoll

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommaof3*
CC isn't about controlling kids, or getting them to "obey" and do what parents want them to do, it's more about relationship and connection, which in turn makes life with children easier. My kids follow the family/societal rules because they respect me, and they respect me because I respect them. Have you read TCC?
It sounds like you're more interested in what some call "gentle discipline", and there's a forum for that on MDC.

Yes, I have read it (I think I mentioned that on an earlier post) . However, I am trying to understand further what I read in the book and its Western civilization applications with others. My question is not one of obedience and controlling kids - it is just one trying to understand tcc. Thank you for trying to point me in the direction you think I was looking for, though the forum for "gentle discipline" doesn't really appeal to me. Also, thank you for all those links - I am familiar with most of what you offered.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollyeilis*
I don't even know if MY answer here is what the PP is looking for, or if it makes sense.

I do know that I'm not perfect at CC, but then again, my world is a lot different than the world described in CC.

Thank you for your reply, this is what I was looking for - the car seat is a perfect example. Also, the bed situation, my ds after several falls from the bed still has not innately learned the physical boundary of the edge of the bed and continues to accidentally fall off. I like tcc principles but I feel that there are times that I can't allow my child the space to "make his own decision" and I'd have to do it.


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## Zannalyn

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommaof3*
One of the basic premises of TCC in my mind is that children are social creatures who desire to contribute in meaningful ways, and the other is that we westerners have given the word/concept of WORK a bad name, unnecessarily. Work is wonderful, fun, etc. and meets a very real need (in all of us) to contribute.









: I remember as a child dreading when my dad would say "Let's go do some WORK!" in his gloating tone of voice, as if he were delighted he could make us suffer as he had to. It wasn't that I minded raking leaves or shoveling snow, but I hated how he would stand over us and tell us what we were doing wrong. As a teenager I had a paper route and when some of my customers asked if my brother would shovel their walk, I laughed and said I would do it. I was happy to do it, to be outside, to be useful... and the $2, hot chocolate and cookies and words of appreciation were very nice, too.


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## Ellien C

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom*
How do you all put your baby/toddler to work?

Has anyone brought the chopping, mixing and such down to ground level? How did that go?

Any other ideas for putting her to work?

We didn't have the funds for a learning tower but we did buy a good step stool and gave it to her for her second birthday. I encourage her to drag the step stool about the kitchen to reach the counter and stir things on the stove. She 3 now and just starting to stir on the stove. I've also been known to chop on a cooler we have in the kitchen. It's kind of a mini-counter at her height. I might sit on her step-stool and use the cooler and she'll stand by and help. That's SO cool about the mother of the little guy who can scramble his own eggs!


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## EnviroBecca

Quote:

I do understand that it is important to allow a baby to be a part of the family's life instead of having the family be part of the baby's life. [...] However, at what point is it too little attention - I hated being treated like I was insignificant and invisible just because I was a child growing up.
I try not to think about what is the right amount of attention FOR A CHILD but just to pay attention to him the way I would any other person: If he is talking, I look at him and listen; if I have something to say, I say it to him; if he is crying, I look for a way to comfort him; if he expresses hunger, I see that he gets something to eat, etc. Obviously he needs more help doing things than an older person would, but I don't think of that as "attention" really--if I am sitting at the table eating oatmeal w/EnviroBaby in my lap, and after each bite I take I offer him a bite, that doesn't take a whole lot of attention; I can read while doing it. I don't treat him as "insignificant and invisible" any more often than I do an adult. For example, if my partner walks thru the room while I'm eating oatmeal, I don't necessarily look up or speak to him or make faces to make him smile...but if he walks in and speaks to me, then he gets my attention.


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## JohnnysGirl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrincessDoll*
I like tcc principles but I feel that there are times that I can't allow my child the space to "make his own decision" and I'd have to do it.

I like CC principles, too, but also sometimes feel like you do, that I wish I could respect my child as an adult, but I can't figure out how to do that given the situation. For example, my 2.5 year old will decide he won't get dressed to go outside in the 5 degree winter weather, but is obviously bored indoors in our apartment and the entertianment I'm able to provide while taking care of his little apartment + chores (if I suggest he do a chore he'll smile and say, "only mommy do it" and never seems interested in anything but thwarting my efforts to get a chore done), and I've felt like I'll go insane if I don't get outside to get some fresh air and sunshine, even for a few minutes.... but gosh it's no fun dressing up my two children in their 17 layers of winter gear to go out in cold weather, and chasing down my 2 year old to do it while my six month old screams at being left to his own devices for more than 4 seconds while I go get his brother ready is heartbreaking to hear, but every time I get through this hard scene to get out the door, everyone gets so happy at being outdoors in fresh air and new scenery, the baby falls contentedly asleep in the sling or next to his brother in the double wide pram, the boy is thrilled to see everything on the city street, and the big hill we are destined to for sledding down, and I'm just so happy to have a moment to hear myeslf think, even if I am pushing a huge pram laden with a 35 pound boy and have a 20 pound baby strapped on my front...at least they are happy and content and we are all getting some sunshine therapy. It's just been hard getting through this endless winter with all the unpleasant dressing & undressing to go anywhere, and such cabin fever in our little apartment if we don't, and until just these last 2 weeks there was no bright sunshine to soak up for the previous 5 months.







So yeah, I hate physically forcing my child into his winter gear and not allowing him the respect to stay home if he so chooses (my DH is there, but working from home and can't watch our 2 year old and get anything done at the same time), but the alternative, to just go along with what he says he wishes, is counterproductive because he doesn't actually want to stay in and do nothing all afternoon, he clearly enjoys the outing more, but not until we're out the door. He has no perspective to understand this, so I 'play the heavy' and force-dress him into his snowsuit and force him into the pram and get out the door and then instantly everything is good once we're outside.

Sorry to go on and on, everyone, I just wanted to empahtically agree that I am aware of myself behaving very non-CC at times, and wishing beyond wishing that the environment was such that I could sort of 'live and let live' more with my willful toddler, but my environment is not such, and I have to make choices for the 3 of us to get through the day with all 3 of us (mom, toddler, baby) being as least stressed as possible, ya know? If my sanity is on the brim after a tough several hours with the boys and I know I'd be a much better mom after a 1 hour exersize break with my husband watching the boys, but my toddler is pulling a heartbreaking routine begging me to stay and once I get out of the house won't stop crying for me to return (so says my DH who calls my cell to tell me the situation, 5 minutes later, and ten minutes later), then what is the right thing to do???? Respectfully I should return, and honor his feeling that he can't handle my leaving, but then again my needs aren't getting met either. Thusfar I just turn around and come straight home at the 5 minute mark because I won't be able to relax and get any break from the boys if I know they aren't happy, I'll just feel bad. But really, this isn't very CC from the viewpoint that everyone in the family has needs that are important, is it? I doubt the Yequana moms ever felt like they were about to scream if they didn't get 5 minutes peace from their kiddos or maybe once a week an hour to themselves. But I do.







:

Sorry to rant and go on and on, please ignore me if I'm wayyyyy off the current topic.


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## Persephone

I'm not sure how much I have to offer you, Angelica, but I did have a couple thoughts while I was reading your post:

One, is that CC isn't child centered, but family centered, and if that means that daddy gets to watch the toddler for a bit while you regain your sanity, then that's what's best for the family. Dads are parents too, and you're not neglecting your child to leave him with dad.

And the second thought I had was Yequana moms don't feel like they're going to go insane, because they're in a tribal situation, and have a dozen people at any given time to hold the baby while they nap, or go to the bathroom, or make dinner. You don't have that, so don't hold yourself to that standard.


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## Sweetiemommy

Subscribing! I am happy to have found this thread!


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## PrincessDoll

Angelica, I completely understand where you were coming from. I do feel that it would be easier to apply tcc principles in our lives if we lived in warmer weather. Then it would not be any hassle to just get up and go outside for a change of scenery. As it is, I despise preparing for the wintry weather and so we both suffer from some MAJOR cabin fever!!!

Persephone, I was thinking the same thing. If I was raising my child in a more tribal situation, he wouldn't have half as many tantrums! My ds has a strong need to be in soical situations that is constantly changing and stimulating. Any time we are in such an environment, he is content and happy. The hardest days are the days where we stay home all day and he is only stimulated by me:-( I really can't wait until springtime!!

I have another question....How can I handle in a continuum way teaching my child respect of other people's boundaries. He is 11 months old and is in the habit of smacking every person (especially me) in the face . I explain and show him gentle touches but he goes right back to smacking. Then if I grab his hand in mid smack and say, respect my face and be gentle he has a tantrum.

Thanks


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## zansmama

Okay, i 'm joining this thread without reading all twenty pages_ i hope that's okay. We have been doing the CC thing as much as we can since birth (Zan is 3), and he is definitely more physically able and friendly than most kids we are around.
We're still working on forming a tribe... I wish he had a bigger "gang" of kids to pal around with... and I wish that more of those kids were as free as he is, but hey.
I do think that the safety issues are difficult in a city, but he has never had a major accident, and I think that our trust in him gives him the confidence he needs for balance and so on.

One thing_ I've been looking for a "child-safe" type of knife for cooking. Someone reccomended a plastic knife, but I'm worried that this might give a false sense of safety. What do you all think?


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollyeilis*

Car seats are another aspect for me. I do not wish to spend all day figuring out how to convince him to get into his seat, and I'm not going to have him roaming the car while I'm driving. So, sometimes, he goes into it without actually wanting to. That's harder on me than it is on him (we're both crying at the time, but 2 minutes after we hit the road I'm still wiping away my tears, nursing my sore back, while he's giggling at his reflection in the mirror) and I do NOT like doing it, but it doesn't go within CC (or some peoples' versions of GD where they will stand at the car forever, or decide not to go etc) even though sometimes it goes within our lives. (luckily ever since Safeway put out their organic line of crackers, the car seat is a much happier place)



I'm NOT saying that everyone should do this, and I realize that for many people it's not an option (weather, spread-out areas, etc.), but we resolved the car-seat/restraint-resistance issue by getting rid of our car. Our boy was not one of those who is lulled to sleep by the sound of a motor. Rather he would scream incessantly until we got out, be it 5 minutes or two hours.







:

He has always loved his bicycle trailer, or stroller, and never fights about being tied in there. It's a bit more work for me or his dad, and really awful in a storm, but much more peaceful as far as Z is concerned.







:


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## mamarhu

ElderSon safely used a very sharp steak knife for veggies and the like at 2. He rarely cut himself - I get a nick now and then, don't you? A good quality, sharp knife gives the user more control, as you don't need to push as hard to slice. Start with slicing mushrooms - they slice smoothly without squishing too easiliy.

Mention of "safety in the city" reminded me of an incident with my family. We were visiting the grandparents in downtown San Franciscn New Year's Day, at 7AM or so, I was walking through the Financial District (picture the skyscrapers, but no traffic or pedestians due to the holiday) with my parents, siblings, and 2 year old ElderSon. Each block, the kid ran ahead to the corner, then waited for all us slow old folks to catch up. He was just like a puppy on a walk; delighting in the amazing sights and sounds. It didn't cross my mind that he was in danger. I naturally trusted him not to be suicidal. I was sincerely shocked when my father implied that I should hold his hand. When I stopped to think about it, I realized I had never seen a toddler allowed to walk this way in a city. I still wonder, and it has been quite a few years, why this was considered weird. Isn't it stranger that we don't give our kids credit for self-preservation? (See my post in this thread #261 for a disclaimer that makes it clear that I am not critisizing any parent who holds the kid's hand).


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## mommaof3

a great source for child friendly knives and other real kitchen tools for children is this montessori catalog http://www.littleredrobin.com/ go to the practical life section, they are quite inexpensive.

car seats - my babies all hate them until they are almost 2 years, we walk, bike, take public transport, have my husband go to the store, invite people over, etc. and take quick trips until they are ready - it's amazing how little the car is needed...


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## zansmama

I'm gonna check out that catalogue, thanks.









Hey, that's how we take walks!







My mom freaks out on how far I let him walk ahead of me, but he always waits at the corner. It's a trust thing, and also a healthy fear of cars. "Watch out , Mama, they'll smoosh you" he tells me.


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## Lissybug

OMG-At far to late at night to be reading it, I have just found this thread and found out I am not insane after all. I have not read the book, but from what I've read here, this is much of how I was raised, and much of how I am with my son. I... I guess I'm.....wow. It turns out I'm not crazy. How nice.


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## pjlioness

With ds1, my solution to forced hand-holding in parking lots and crossing or near busy streets was to say, "Take mama's finger." and put my finger in his hand. He'd grasp it, and off we'd go. It's working well with ds2, too.

Alex has been staying near the car pretty reliably when I tell him to for the last couple of years, though he does start to run around occasionally. I try to emphasize that he is small and drivers might not see him, so that's why it's dangerous.


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## mollyeilis

In my area, halfway between Seattle and Tacoma, no-car would be very difficult. And like I said in my post, once he's in the car and we're on our way, he's pleased as punch. I'm the one who wants to cry...







He likes the car, just doesn't always like to *get in* the car. A transporter beam would be very helpful for us.









I think I'm slowly realizing I need to live rurally. The kids around here are teaching him BAD things. I don't even take him out when the other kids are out, but he'll hear them SCREAMING at the top of their lungs and he'll start screaming. To me (and I imagine to the Yequanas) a scream means you're being attacked or kidnapped. Being boisterous is one thing, but screaming is another. I'm soon going to start running out there every single time those kids scream; soon I'll be the crazy nervous lady, and maybe they won't stop screaming, but they'll probably take it elsewhere.









Anyway, I don't think I could walk on a sidewalk like described. I trust Eamon, but I don't trust cars, and currently there's a large, scary, and proving-himself-to-be-untrustworthy (he's getting protective of our apartment building, instead of focusing on his single apartment, and that's NOT safe for us) dog (pit bull, but that wasn't our initial concern about him) living downstairs from us. His owners let him out off leash and they will stand up a flight of stairs from him...they watch him menacing people. He's dark, and last night we all came home after dark and I didn't know if he was out...no way DS is walking around unattached from us with any sort of untrustworthy, protective beast around...

Anyway, I trust DS, I just don't trust the world around us...if we lived rurally but not fast-tall-big-truck rurally, I think I could trust the universe a bit more.


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## mollyeilis

Must giggle at myself...am afraid of a protective dog, but am OK introducing the idea of living rurally, with the *wild* animal risk that brings.


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## pjlioness

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollyeilis*
...and currently there's a large, scary, and proving-himself-to-be-untrustworthy (he's getting protective of our apartment building, instead of focusing on his single apartment, and that's NOT safe for us) dog (pit bull, but that wasn't our initial concern about him) living downstairs from us. His owners let him out off leash and they will stand up a flight of stairs from him...they watch him menacing people. He's dark, and last night we all came home after dark and I didn't know if he was out...no way DS is walking around unattached from us with any sort of untrustworthy, protective beast around...

I'd strongly suggest reporting the dog and its family to the police. It sounds like a dangerous situation.


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## pjlioness

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollyeilis*
Must giggle at myself...am afraid of a protective dog, but am OK introducing the idea of living rurally, with the *wild* animal risk that brings.










Yeah, but with wild animals, they generally won't bother you if you don't bother them. Big difference.


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## mollyeilis

Right now we're working with the apartment people. In this area there was a recent pit bull attack (on dogs, not people), and at the moment they are overwhelmed with reports of pbs, and might therefore just see us as more randomly scared people, rather than people who were raised by and LOVE big dogs (German Shepherds for DH, Alaskan Malamutes for me), but this particular animal is showing signs of being untrustworthiness.

The issue plaguing us is that the lady in the apartment used to rent apartments in this area, and knows her way around laws, and claims that this large, aggressive, untrained pit bull is a Service Dog. Looking into laws for service animals, while training and special classes are nice, they are NOT necessary at all. She says the dog is for her epilepsy; he either helps sense them ahead of time, or helps her after, i'm not sure. Now, I don't doubt that a dog can do this; in fact I absolutely believe that they can. I simply doubt whether this exact dog is such a beast.

So the complex has to be VERY careful with this issue, lest they be slapped with a lawsuit with the ADA behind it. They can't even charge a pet deposit for a service animal, because they are considered part of the family, not a "pet". And they can only ask minimal questions about the animal, pretty much "is this a service dog" and "do you have a condition and can I have a note from your doctor saying you have a condition"...they can't even ask WHAT condition, and definitely can't ask "and THIS particular dog is THE dog that helps you?"

Anyway, wiht the ADA stuff, the complex has to tread carefully...police will be called in future *dog let outside just as my 300 lb hubby gets home, dog menaces hubby and traps him inside his car, while man (who isn't supposed to live here, according to the management, it's only supposed to be a woman) watches and smokes cigarettes on his second floor landing* situations, as well as picture-taking with his camera phone...but supposedly they've been given their eviction notice b/c of so many righteous complaints against the scary dog...we'll see. Knowing our management, the lady will SAY the dog is gone, but I know we'll still hear big barks (they do have quite a voice) in the middle of the night, and I still won't be able to let DS play on the grass (a whole other issue).


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## zansmama

Okay, i still haven't read the whole thread, but wondered, what do you all think of her description of the tribe not really talking to their kids, except for simple commands, or responses? This is one of those things that i feel would work great in a tribal setting, where many other kids are around_ all the time_ for conversation. But obviously in our situation (one kid at home) this wouldn't really work... I think...


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## rzberrymom

Quote:

what do you all think of her description of the tribe not really talking to their kids, except for simple commands, or responses? This is one of those things that i feel would work great in a tribal setting, where many other kids are around_ all the time_ for conversation. But obviously in our situation (one kid at home) this wouldn't really work... I think...
DH and I have talked about this. We've noticed that DD is happier when she's watching us talk, rather than when the focus is on her and we're engaging her. And she REALLY loves it when we have people over and she can just sit there and watch all of us. That was counter to what I expected--I thought she'd be clamoring for our attention when we had others over. So, I kind of think Liedloff is onto something.

Our solution is try to have people over as much as possible--we're slowly building a tribe. And in the future we plan to live in co-housing.


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## mysticmomma

Wow... great thread!


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## zansmama

Gerat! I just ordered a little knive and cutting board for ds, also an enamelware pitcher. He is very excited to know that he will soon be helping to cut vegetables, especially avocados.
Thanks so much for that link!


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## PrincessDoll

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama*
Okay, i still haven't read the whole thread, but wondered, what do you all think of her description of the tribe not really talking to their kids, except for simple commands, or responses? This is one of those things that i feel would work great in a tribal setting, where many other kids are around_ all the time_ for conversation. But obviously in our situation (one kid at home) this wouldn't really work... I think...


I am part of a CC emailing list and this very topic came up the other day. What I usually do is go about my business and when my ds comes to me and is grabbing at me or what have you, I take that as his need to socialize. So we socialize at that point. Other times, I initiate the socialization. But it is never exaggerated or what have you. I do agree though that the Yequana's simple commands and lack of interaction with children would not work in my isolating environment. My ds is a highly social being and since we are not in a tribal environment, his social needs need to be met by me and dh.


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## mamamelia

hello CC mamas!
just a quick question here: i wanted to know what you all thought of play kitchens versus "playing" in the real kitchen.
what about pretend play? my 18mo dd loves to imitate and help with things around the house, when she is in the mood. i am just wondering if i should let her venture off into her own little world of pretend housekeeping and such (and therefore buy a play kitchen and wooden food), or let her only help with the "real" housekeeping, if that makes sense.

thanks!


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## Persephone

dh and I just had this discussion. My conclusion is that, when we are cooking, then she can use real knives and real food. When we aren't actually going to make anything real from it, we'll get her some play food, and maybe a play kitchen, because we're too poor to give her real food that isn't going to get eaten. As for cleaning, I intend to give her real tools for that sized to fit her, and she can use those to either really clean or pretend clean as she desires. If, she ever requests to cook with real food, or clean something for real, then by all means, I'll facilitate that.


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *casina*
my boys readily carry sticks which also makes people nervous. fortunately that was when i knew my homeschool group was okay the first time i met them - after i explained to reed he had to leave his torch (stick with a ribbon) on the van, we walked up and all the kids had sticks and swords. anyway one time at homeschool park day, i guess he was four then he had a "bow and arrow" from the dollar store. i would not normally permit a "weapon" in regular public at the time. (and now do not bring any toys at all) this is an easily breakable piece of plastic with and elastic string, with an arrow which was a six inch piece of flexible plastic thinner than a straw with a suction cup on the end. well apparently he actually got it aloft, and it whizzed by a toddler in a swing and the mom wasn't part of our group and was already nervous about us. she walked over and proceeded to yell at reed. well my son doesn't react well to that kind of thing. unfortunately for some people including my mom i have not taught my children to obey and respect all adults no matter what and if you assume he is not trying his best then he will not listen to you. so what he did was he shot the arrow at the mom. this is when she grabbed his arm and brought him over to me and proceeded to yell at me in the midst of friends. all i could say was, i'm sorry you are upset about what happenned. and took the toy so it wouldn't happen again. she was in a stink that i did not make reed apologize and left soon after. after that my friends said they just wanted to shoot fake arrows at her too.


Okay , i know this is super old...
But it was so interesting to me that I have had nearly the same experiences so many times! Ds is always carrying a stick or sword, and growling like a pirate. It drives me crazy to see the uptight parents react like he's a "bad kid" (he's never hit anyone), and I do worry about his feelings.
How do you all deal with these "other parents", who seem to always be present at the playgrounds?


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## PrincessDoll

Use nondefensive communication with them is the best I can offer. For ex, if the other parents are commenting on how dangerous it is to let your dc climb the monkey bars, say "I can see how you would feel that way" or "Isn't it interesting how we tend to get more nervous for someone else's child?" or something along those lines. I would *not* offer any explanations to the other parent nor would I feel the need to defend my parenting choices.


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## flowers

I totally agree that you should not get into your own philosophies unless the person is open and it is part of a natural conversation.

When people run over panicked to tell me my son is eating sand or a stick or something I just say thank you and I will even go over to him and say a few things to him that they might interpret as don't eat sand but I am really saying "hi, honey this is fun!"


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## flowers

I totally agree that you should not get into your own philosophies unless the person is open and it is part of a natural conversation.

When people run over panicked to tell me my son is eating sand or a stick or something I just say thank you and I will even go over to him and say a few things to him that they might interpret as don't eat sand but I am really saying "hi, honey this is fun!"


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## flowers

I totally agree that you should not get into your own philosophies unless the person is open and it is part of a natural conversation.

When people run over panicked to tell me my son is eating sand or a stick or something I just say thank you and I will even go over to him and say a few things to him that they might interpret as don't eat sand but I am really saying "hi, honey this is fun!"


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## mamamelia

thankyou persephone! that made perfect sense! now to get some kiddie sized real tools. can you please tell me where you buy them from? my dd loves to sweep the floor with the broom but can't walk around with it well. she'd love a little broom of her own!

Quote:

_*Originally Posted by casina*
my boys readily carry sticks which also makes people nervous. fortunately that was when i knew my homeschool group was okay the first time i met them - after i explained to reed he had to leave his torch (stick with a ribbon) on the van, we walked up and all the kids had sticks and swords. anyway one time at homeschool park day, i guess he was four then he had a "bow and arrow" from the dollar store. i would not normally permit a "weapon" in regular public at the time. (and now do not bring any toys at all) this is an easily breakable piece of plastic with and elastic string, with an arrow which was a six inch piece of flexible plastic thinner than a straw with a suction cup on the end. well apparently he actually got it aloft, and it whizzed by a toddler in a swing and the mom wasn't part of our group and was already nervous about us. she walked over and proceeded to yell at reed. well my son doesn't react well to that kind of thing. unfortunately for some people including my mom i have not taught my children to obey and respect all adults no matter what and if you assume he is not trying his best then he will not listen to you. so what he did was he shot the arrow at the mom. this is when she grabbed his arm and brought him over to me and proceeded to yell at me in the midst of friends. all i could say was, i'm sorry you are upset about what happenned. and took the toy so it wouldn't happen again. she was in a stink that i did not make reed apologize and left soon after. after that my friends said they just wanted to shoot fake arrows at her too._
while this is up here - i must mention that i laughed so hard when reading what happened. then i ran to tell dh and we giggled about it all night.
dh said "smart kid".


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## mollyeilis

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamamelia*
can you please tell me where you buy them from? my dd loves to sweep the floor with the broom but can't walk around with it well. she'd love a little broom of her own!

We found a small broom and dustpan set at the dollar store, and DS just LOVES to help out with it.









He also loves vacuuming with the little Dustbuster.


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## flowers

someone gave us a gift certificate to kaybee toys (junk junk junk!) and the only thing we found in there was a mini broom and dustpan that he loves! My husband is a big sweeper and ds just follows him around sweep sweep sweep


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## Ellien C

Just FYI - My 3 yo just did a GREAT job cleaning the bathroom counter over the weekend. We have a brick wall and a bit of leak, so the counter gets full of mortar dust and crud. I set the 3 yo up with some wipes, at her request and it took her 20 minutes, but that counter was spotless. And she was actually very useful. Just wanted to let you all know there is help in site. It takes so much longer to DO things with a toddler helping. But if you can get out of the "get-it-done-mode" (hard for me) and into the just being mode - with an eye that cooking or cleaning together is "quality" time, it really helps. And eventually, sooner than you might think, they actually become useful. I was chopping food for chilli in the kitchen while she cleaned the bathroom counter.


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## hookahgirl

Hi! I am new to this thread, but not to CC! I have a 1 year old DD who is always busy doing something!
I just wanted to add to the above posters "soon enough they will become useful" My DD has a laundry basket that she pushes around "picking" things up. She gets all her toys and things that are one the floor, puts them in her basket when I am cleaning. Its SO cute!!! Now dont get me wrong, the toys may not STAY in the basket for any given time, but the point is, they want to help, starting SO young!
I just love CC, even though it gives most people total anxiety when they dont know why "you are just letting your kid DO everything" haha


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## Periwinkle

nak

yup!

my 4 year olds are seriously helpful. they make their beds every morning. set table and load dishwasher. quite good at folding laundry. pick up their toys. water plants. rake leaves.... the list goes on.

the best thing is they still love to help and have fun doing it. hopefull this will continue and they don't turn into sullen couch potato teenagers lol.









my dd is quite maternal and calls our 14 month old "my baby". she's such a good mama already, for example, i'll be doing something in the kichen and she's in the family room with him, and she'll run in to get me and say, "Mama, I think my baby wants to nurse!" AND SHE'S RIGHT about 95% of the time!


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## ACsMom

Late joiner here. Great thread!

I have a 9-week-old daughter who is a long way from being useful, but she sure is starting to socialize!

Zansmom brought up the question back in March about not initiating much conversation with your child, who's supposed to be mostly socializing with his/her own kind, and coming to the adults only when needed. I agree that our society isn't conducive. For ex. my husband and I live 500 miles from our families and we might not have any more kids. There are other babies in our neighborhood, though, so maybe there will be play dates...anyway the point is, we will likely be her primary playmates, so I don't feel like we can go about our own business and leave her to herself, at least not to the extent the Yequanas(sp.?) do.

I wish it was more acceptable to bring your children to work - it would solve a lot of social problems, in my opinion. I am a child therapist and I'm always seeing kids who've been messed up by a lack of time & nurturing from parents early on, and they get "stuck" in infancy where their needs were not met, and develop behavior problems, separation anxiety, etc. It seems to me if our culture supported parents in meeting their young children's needs, everyone would benefit. But NOOOOOO, we have to be the most short-sighted, self-destructive culture on the planet.

Okay I've stepped off my soapbox now. Thanks for listening (reading)!


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## PrincessDoll

Just wanted to stop in and say how tcc is working in my life.

Just yesterday I visited a good friend of mine. Ds was actively exploring her apartment while we conversated. I kept my periphereal vision on him but mostly just talked contently. Periodically, ds came over to me to see what I was doing and to bring something over to me that he discovered. I acknowledged him and whatever he was interested in at that moment. I wasn't on top of him like a hawk or telling him not to do things. I just behaved in such a way where I expected him to not get hurt and to listen to mama the rare moments I had to redirect him.

Everything was going fine but my friend is used to constantly saying no and don't or you'll hurt yourself, etc... Interestingly enough, ds who is normally very controlled over his movements, became very clumsy. At one point he tripped while walking (lost balance) and his face banged against the wall.

Do you think those times dc is around a non-cc person will undue all the progress he/she makes with tcc?


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## henhao

What do you all do with friends and family who coo and oogle the baby constantly? I like to exist where the baby is part of the fabric of life and not the center of attention.

Lots of people in our life make a constant fuss over the baby. I can't cut them all out of my life.

Ideas?


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## HotMama

As I sit here nursing my week old babe, I must say babies are for oggling. Even in the Yequena culture, babies were oggled. It is one way folks in our culture still connect, by collectively loving up the kids. Not being child-centered doesn't mean pushing people away. We fit it into our culture the best we can and it can embrace the oggling from our community, IMHO.


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrincessDoll*

Do you think those times dc is around a non-cc person will undue all the progress he/she makes with tcc?


You know, I've worried about this, too, especially since i babysit for some exremely non-cc kids (fortunately they're much older than ds). Their house is run with lots of rules, like no climbing on stuff, kids don't get food for themselves, etc. The standards.
But I've been very clear with ds that these are the rules "at this house", not rules for everyday life. And I let him do pretty much whatever he would be doing at home if no-one's around to be bothered... I feel like he's kept his "free-ness"
I know that this doesn't directly address the issue you brought up, the "over-careful" thing. As far as that goes, I've tried to stay out of it when other people address ds, except perhaps to explain to them that he can handle himself.("oh, he's very coordinated") But once he could explain that for himself, I haven't interfered. He's gotten pretty good at defending his actions with fairly logical explanations, and since he sees himself as an equal human to whoever he may be talking with, they usually respect him. On the rare occasions that there's been a power-tripping a**hole, I've just comforted him and redirected him with a "let's go play over here"









Oh, yeah, and I would definitely say that "ogling" is a natural and essential part of babyhood in a community. As long as the baby's wishes are respected. (i.e., letting him just sit quietly in the sling if he feels like it, not bothering him when he's sick or sleepy, etc)


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## mysticmomma

Everything was going fine but my friend is used to constantly saying no and don't or you'll hurt yourself, etc... Interestingly enough, ds who is normally very controlled over his movements, became very clumsy. At one point he tripped while walking (lost balance) and his face banged against the wall.

I have seen so many times when the only times kids fall is when a grown up says "watch out!"

See my thread here... i'm interested in what you all think.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=455339


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## mollyeilis

We're moving into a house!

A house with an open kitchen with lots of room, where I can put things on deep counters and not worry that DS will easily pull things down in exuberance. A house in which putting a gate up to keep him out of the kitchen _is impossible_. woohoo!

I'm excited.









It's also a chance at putting our things in better places, so we don't get so concerned. A chance at a new place for the kitty's litterbox, so we don't feel the need to gate off HER room, too, to keep DS out of her poop and her food.

Again, excited!

I feel like I've let my baser fears and worries overtake my beliefs these last almost-2 years. And this new place, with its entirely new layout, is going to be both the challenge to that, as well as the way to let DS be free.

It even has a fenced backyard, so I don't have to take him to our apartment complex's poop-filled, surly-teenager-ridden, playground. I can let him out and not, gasp!, have to be right there on top of him.

Now, there are new worries that are going to challenge me. There are very steep stairs to the second floor, and while he's good at stairs and there's a handrail (which he always uses), I can't get rid of the image of him toppling down to the stone tiles in the entryway below. How can I make this safer for him, so he can be free? How can I get the image out of my head? I don't think he'd fall on a normal day, but I can picture him surprising our cat (they have been separated by my and her choice for almost two years now, with only recent good "meetings"), and having her bolt past him, causing him to startle and tumble.

Come to think of it, I can picture doing that myself.









Does anyone have any suggestions for how I can set things up so he's free to roam and I am free to continue to not have grey hairs?







For instance, the litterbox, where to put knives (I'm NOT comfortable letting him have access, though I know many are...I've been cut by knives far too many times by complete accident), how to stop my brain from thinking ACK about the stairs...and so on.

Thanks!


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## mysticmomma

Does anyone have any suggestions for how I can set things up so he's free to roam and I am free to continue to not have grey hairs? For instance, the litterbox, where to put knives (I'm NOT comfortable letting him have access, though I know many are...I've been cut by knives far too many times by complete accident), how to stop my brain from thinking ACK about the stairs...and so on.

Thanks!

we put our litterbox in the laundry area. I guess technically dd does have access to it, but she doesn't go in there. As far as knives and other toxic/dangerous things, those are also in the laundry area up high on a shelf. We could close off the area and she couldn't get to it, but haven't yet had a need. Our bathroom has nothing but deoderant, shampoo, soap and toothpaste. In our kitchen, everything downlow is kidable, and dish soap etc, is in the laundry closet. Glass is all up high, and she's never really told "no" about anything, we just see what she wants to explore and do it with her so she learns safely. Everything else is in that laundry closet. We put the cat's food up on one of our tall dressers (which happens to be in our walk in closet, but we've had it in the bedroom before, and it works fine). Now the steps, we just were really on it about helping her be near the steps. We never gated them off, and just didn't leave her alone in the room with the steps. She's only fallen once, and that was when my MIL said, "OH MY BE CAREFUL!" really loudly.







: If you wanted, you could block it off when you are in the other room just with a big box or somethign that your dc needs to make a lot of noise to get around. We mainly u sed our baby monitor for situations like this since we co-slept. I'd put one where she was playing, and clip the thing to my waistband, tell her where I was going (it's amazing how much they understand!) and she'd be fine to play.


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## mollyeilis

The monitor idea is fabulous! As is the *put a box there* idea. That' s how we originally blocked off spaces when he was little. That's also how he learned to climb difficult things so well, as he practiced pulling up on *empty*, unstable boxes.









Alas the laundry area is upstairs near the bedrooms, sort of set in the wall. We'd have to leave it open for kitty...then again, so do you, maybe? But I don't think there's room in there for a litterbox. hmm.

I don't see the landlady letting us install a kitty door anywhere, though that would be a great idea.

It really is wild, how they fall when they are told they will. I finally found a compromise for myself...I will try to say "be mindful" if I just can't resist saying something. Not quite the same as "be careful", though definitely not perfect. If I have a moment to think but still can't resist, I'll try to let him know quickly that I KNOW he is mindful, and that I appreciate it, and he can feel free to continue being mindful in the future...


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## mysticmomma

We do leave it open. Ours is in the kitchen. She will occassionaly walk over and point "kiki poop kiki poop".







But she doesn't touch.
T


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## Ellien C

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollyeilis*
I finally found a compromise for myself...I will try to say "be mindful" if I just can't resist saying something. Not quite the same as "be careful", though definitely not perfect. If I have a moment to think but still can't resist, I'll try to let him know quickly that I KNOW he is mindful, and that I appreciate it, and he can feel free to continue being mindful in the future...









You can also just give information as you would to a fellow competent adult. These stairs are uneven and rocky - or these stairs are sharp, or tricky, whatever. Same as would for any other person.


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## MamaTaraX

What a cool tribe! I was just laying in bed nursing my baby and had alightbulb moment in which I realized that what my life needs is a village to help raise mychildren. I've always beleived it takes a village to rasie a child. I saw this thread eons ago. I got up and came in here and noticed it again, this time reallynoticing it.

I stumbled upon TCC (book) quite by accident. I don't even really remember how. I do remember reading it and just being amazed at connecting with a piece of literature. It was chalkful of how I instrinctively parented my firstborn (I had just given birth to my second, I believe) and how I knew I would instinctively parent my new baby and future children. Something neat I've discoverd about being a TCC mama is that it rubs off. My MIL used tobe all "be careful!" about everything. Now she's not. She's seen me over the years let mychildren run free, discover attheir own pace, etc, and has reallychilled that type of thing out. I even get a kick out of going out to eat with people and them seeing my 2-yr-old pickup a steak knife. I don't even look or acknowledge it and they are buggin' out. I have to tell them to not make a fuss over it because when you makea fuss is when accidents happen.









My baby is waking upnow so I will have to come back to this another time. Some night when they're all in bed I think I'll read this whole thread. Very very cool. You mamas rock and I wish you lived next door to me









Namaste, Tara


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## Persephone

Hey Tara, nice to see you!







This is the only tribe I'm really into here. And I know we don't live next door, but it's not too far away either.


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## mollyeilis

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ellien C*
You can also just give information as you would to a fellow competent adult. These stairs are uneven and rocky - or these stairs are sharp, or tricky, whatever. Same as would for any other person.

I do that too, thanks for reminding me! What I was saying above was for those times when I'm really panicky inside and have to say *something* *fast*, the mature stuff doesn't yet come out, but I can usually tone it down to "mindful".


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## tsfairy

I've seen this thread floating around for a while now, but this is the first time I've had a chance to read it (though I haven't read the whole thing!)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *henhao*
I like to exist where the baby is part of the fabric of life and not the center of attention.

How does this work exactly?

DS is 9.5 mo and he IS the center of my life and the center of attention in a lot of situations. At home, he has just recently started to play independently, but he will only very rarely let me out of his sight even for a second (though I'm amazed at how much he understands -- sometimes I can say "mommy's going potty" and he will be calm until I return, knowing that I will be coming right back.) Even if I'm occupied with doing something else, like laundry or dishes, I tend to hover over DS since he's crawling and pulling up but not very stable yet. At my ILs, he's always the center of attention, since he's the only grandbaby and nobody's used to having kids over there. I try not to restrict his movements or actions, but I'll move things out of his way if I feel like he might be harmed or break/tear up something (like magazines - he loves to eat them. At home, that's fine, but I don't think his grandparents would like their Forbes to have baby spit all over it and big holes in the cover







)

So how does it work to not have the baby be the center of attention, when he's the only baby and he is by far the most entertaining thing around?









Also, several posters mentioned putting things up high and letting babe have access to cabinets, etc. How harmful is it to use cabinet locks? If you don't use them, what's the best way to let baby know that he can't go in there? We don't keep anything really harmful in our lower cabinets, but there's one really deep cabinet under our kitchen sink that I just don't think would be a safe place to play kwim?


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## AmyMN

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tsfairy*
DS is 9.5 mo and he IS the center of my life and the center of attention in a lot of situations. At home, he has just recently started to play independently, but he will only very rarely let me out of his sight even for a second (though I'm amazed at how much he understands -- sometimes I can say "mommy's going potty" and he will be calm until I return, knowing that I will be coming right back.) Even if I'm occupied with doing something else, like laundry or dishes, I tend to hover over DS since he's crawling and pulling up but not very stable yet.

In our culture, it's hard for baby to NOT be the center of attention. It's just you and him alone at home. I think the "CC" thing for babies is to be wearing them. You don't have to, then, explain that you're going to be leaving him for a second. He goes with you. That's I guess how he can not be the center of attention; i.e. he's part of you so you don't need to overfocus on him.

OTOH, I love my baby up (dd2) and I won't feel bad about that!









I know there's a lot of misinterpretation about CC and child-centered.

Here's a quote from this article http://continuum-concept.org/reading/in-arms.html:

"Because of the child's need to participate, it is also important that caretakers not just sit and gaze at the baby or continually ask what the baby wants, but lead active lives themselves. Occasionally one cannot resist giving a baby a flurry of kisses; however, a baby who is programmed to watch you living your busy life is confused and frustrated when you spend your time watching him living his. A baby who is in the business of absorbing what life is like as lived by you is thrown into confusion if you ask him to direct it."

Put baby on your back and bring him wherever you go. Find a babywearing support group near you: http://www.nineinnineout.org/


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## AmyMN

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tsfairy*
How harmful is it to use cabinet locks? If you don't use them, what's the best way to let baby know that he can't go in there? We don't keep anything really harmful in our lower cabinets, but there's one really deep cabinet under our kitchen sink that I just don't think would be a safe place to play kwim?

More...









If you feel like you have to tell your baby to not go into a cabinet, then use the locks. It sucks to be NO PATROL as I call it--sucks for mama and kid. I use this line of thinking even with my 4-yr-old. For example, if we have junkfood (bought by dh ) and she asks for it, she gets it (sometimes after she eats some protein first). If dh doesn't want her to have it, it shouldn't be in the house.

Make sense?


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## AmyMN

For those that don't know about Scott, he's a CC parenting coach. Sign up for his daily emails. See below for today's.

THE DAILY GROOVE for May 25, 2006

:: Go With the Flow... Even If It's 'Wrong' ::

Sometimes we think we're doing our kids a favor when
we tell them the "right" way to do something:
"No, dear... Do it *this* way."

We think we're just saving them the hassle of
reinventing the wheel, or preventing something from
being "wasted," or saving time. But our corrections
also send unintended, unspoken messages, like...

* The end result is more important than the process.
* Efficiency is more important than joy.
* There is no value in making mistakes.
* Better to go with a "sure thing" than to take risks.

In other words, frequently correcting children
undermines their (and our) creativity!

So next time you see your child doing something the
"wrong" way, ask yourself if it's really so bad that
you can't go along with it. See if you can relax and
enjoy witnessing his or her process of discovery.

Children who are allowed to find their own way learn
that they *can* find their own way.

:: http://www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove ::

Feel free to forward this entire message to your friends!

Permalink:
http://www.enjoyparenting.com/daily-groove/wrong-way

The Daily Groove is a service of EnjoyParenting.com
Copyright (c) 2006 by Scott Noelle
--
"Inspiration & Coaching for Progressive Parents" http://www.ScottNoelle.com http://www.EnjoyParenting.com 1-360-344-3117, or toll-free in US: 1-877-ALL-4-JOY (1-877-255-4569)
Voicemail: 1-206-203-4569


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## Periwinkle

To the poster wondering how to be CC when it's you and baby home all day, I think the most important thing IME is as others have posted, to go on about your day as much as you can. My baby did laundry with me, ran errands, did gardening(!), dishes, cooking, etc. either in a sling or a pile of laundry in a laundry basket or lying next to me on a blanket while I gardened. When we had playdates, I made sure to get some adult conversation in there too, instead of making my interactions with adults have to revolve around babies, which I think is kind of strange to be honest and definitely not CC. Babywearing is essential, but as they get older and enjoy crawling/toddling around, I have found it interesting to move around the house making beds, picking up, etc. and he pretty much crawls/toddles after me as I go. He'll stop to explore something then catch up to me whereever I am. I am on the record (on this thread) lol as being "CC lite"







- meaning I do what I can but the realities of my life make it impossible to imitate what the Yequana would do! So I try my best to incorporate CC theories into our lives mainly because I think focusing 100% on children isn't healthy (for them or me) and I have no intention of letting my house go to pot just because I have babies. I still have work to do, kwim? Further, I think it's wonderful how they join in at such an early age and try to do grown-up things (my 15 month old is currently working on becoming a darn good vacuumer and can already put his dishes in the dishwasher), as opposed to the other way around (i.e., mom spending all day long on the floor playing with baby toys). He has NEVER bolted from me, and neither have my older twin 4 year-olds. So being CC extends to when you're at a playground or just out and about -- when he ventures off I make sure I can see him but I do NOT go to him. I wait for him to come back to me, then I hug and kiss him (reward). I think a lot of times parents inadvertently teach children to wander off/bolt in public, by constantly following their children around instead of the CC way which is the children follow the grown-ups around! The latter makes a lot more sense and is a lot safer too.

Sorry for my ramblings, just wanted to post that yeah, being CC for a lot of us is about compromises but you can infuse your day with CC elements that can actually have a big impact on your daily life and your children's behavior.


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## PrincessDoll

Yes, I am familiar with Scott from the cc email listserve. He has some insightful things to offer.

Quote:

DS is 9.5 mo and he IS the center of my life and the center of attention in a lot of situations. At home, he has just recently started to play independently, but he will only very rarely let me out of his sight even for a second. Even if I'm occupied with doing something else, like laundry or dishes, I tend to hover over DS since he's crawling and pulling up but not very stable yet.
This is around the time that I made our home as much of a "yes" environment as possible. I put all choking hazards out of sight, put locks on any cabinets/toilet that were off-limits to ds, and valuables were placed out of reach, etc. In each room, I also placed items in drawers specifically for him. In the kitchen, he has several drawers filled with his items, in the living room, one of the drawers in the computer desk is filled with his items, etc. Since I don't have 2 levels in our apartment, every room is open to ds. He has access to any room I am in so that he is free to follow me when I go into another area. Setting up our environment this way allowed me to feel more confident in giving ds the space to just "be" and explore without hovering. Sure he received a couple of bumps and bruises along the way but nothing every serious. Our environment was very much a yes one and so I was able to sit back and let ds just "be".

Quote:

At my ILs, he's always the center of attention, since he's the only grandbaby and nobody's used to having kids over there. I try not to restrict his movements or actions, but I'll move things out of his way if I feel like he might be harmed or break/tear up something (like magazines - he loves to eat them. At home, that's fine, but I don't think his grandparents would like their Forbes to have baby spit all over it and big holes in the cover )
Are you there often? If so, maybe you can discuss with your in-laws about creating the room that you spend the most time in more of a "yes" environment. If they are unwilling to accomodate, I would rethink spending so much time over there and rather invite the grandparents over to your place where dc is able to freely explore with the least amount of interference.

Quote:

So how does it work to not have the baby be the center of attention, when he's the only baby and he is by far the most entertaining thing around?
There were a couple of posts about this a couple of pages back. Very informative too.


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## zansmama

:

I love this thread.
God, I wish you all lived here in Berkeley!


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## mollyeilis

To those of you who *do* utilize cabinet locks, have you tried the Tot-Locks (or Tot-Loks, not sure of product spelling)? The problem we had with regular locks is that they do open just enough to intrigue. DS quickly realized what he could do to get in, and that's when we had to gate off the kitchen.









The TotLocks *seem* to allow the door to be completely and totally shut, no small opening to stick your finger in to push anything down. Then you grab the magnet "key" and can open it. But without the key, it seems you can't open the cabinet at all.

Which I think is great, because it's possible Eamon will think it's just a blank bit of wall. And then when I open it, perhaps he will think I'm a shaman with magical powers.









Anyway, seems better in the "CC-lite" (LOVE that phrase) world than a cabinet lock that allows a *bit* of access that will interest the kiddo in a place you're trying to keep away from him/her.

Anyone have thoughts on that?


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## kamesennin

.


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pbandj*
Someone please assure me this is a phase because she is transitioning into being her own person rather than being worn all day long?

It is all a phase. For all of us. And it will change and be harder and easier in different ways. After they sleep easily, they sleep less.







When they don't mind you leaving more, they want to be out and about more. When it is easier to take them out, they want to stay home. It all changes.









We just aren't evolved to parent young children alone. It is hard when we choose to do so. But, I am not going to invite MY mother or sister or inlaws(all mainstream) to come live with us.







Choices have benefits, and costs. So do cribs, bottles and diapers.....

Frankly, if you are sane enough, I'd have another child sooner than later. Then all the baby phase is done faster. We stopped at one, waiting for us to be able to cope with another baby phase. But, it is so much easier now, and in different ways more challenging (like having an opinionated, autonomous little 5 year old requires different coping skills). Adding a baby now would be really tough for us. Plus we are older, 43 and 47. I think parenting is probably easier when you can be sleepless and still have energy.









Best wishes. Hope that helps.

Pat


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## muse

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama*







:

I love this thread.
God, I wish you all lived here in Berkeley!

I'm in Berkeley!


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## Amoreena

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SoCalTCC


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## PrincessDoll

Quote:

Do women in other countries wake up and go to sleep with their babies without any (ANY) breaks inbetween?
That is where we Westerns diverge from the Yequana women. They are not raising their children in isolation. When they need a break, there is always another pair of hands close by. The children are still receiving human stimulation and the mama is able to recharge. What I have done is get connected with some local Women's Bible Studies and left ds in the nursery to get that chance to refuel. Can you do something like that?


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## AmyMN

I have a 4-year-old and a 7-month-old. I am really happy about this space in age, and think 5 years would be even better parenting-wise (not physically for me, and not for older dd who can't wait until her sister can run with her). It has been *extremely* challenging to spread my attention between both kids, and to be patient with dd1. As a result, she does some things to take it out on the baby. (Work-in-progress for me.)

The baby is SO easy to take care of. I know what I'm doing: I very happily co-sleep with her (and dd1), pay attention to the subtlest of clues, do EC, keep her with/on me so much of the time, and don't wish for her to be asleep in bed so I can have my own time.

This is different than with dd1. I ended up co-sleeping with her though I thought I shouldn't be. And I couldn't *wait* for her to be asleep so I could do my own thing. I have to say that I paid for this attitude/energy. Dd1 was very clingy for the first 3 years. I couldn't walk out of the same room _in our house_ without her being unhappy. So when she was 2.5-years-old, I had to reestablish the attachment between us, and bring her everywhere with me, initiate contact all day long. Dd1 didn'rt sleep through the night until after age 3 when I weaned her (I was pg.).

Your dd takes two naps. Wow, that's more than my dd1 has ever done (dd2 basically sleeps in the sling or next to me). I didn't do any weekly activities until she was about 2.5-years-old (actually, I just went to a movie alone a few times). So I'm impressed with what you are doing w/ knitting (and that you have people that support that). I say that you are getting some good breaks from my view.









I tried, with dd1, to nurse her to sleep at night and then "escape" into the other parts of the house for my own things. But she must have sensed this (like your dd?) and wouldn't fall asleep. I ended up so frustrated. That's when I just let her stay up with me: the path of least resistance. She still stays up with me, sometimes until midnight or later.

My advice, if you want dd to go to sleep early, pick an earlier bedtime for yourself. And then *maybe* you'll wake up earlier in the a.m. before your dd. But don't plan on it, or you'll end up frustrated.

Also, be around groups of people during the day when you feel like it. This has made me feel like I get my own time ("sort of" since I do value _alone_ time), while still having the kids with me. This is especially helpful if you've got people in your life that love to play with or care for your dd.

I recommend the book _How to Win by Quitting_! I've learned to really appreciated the meditative time of just sitting on the ground with my kids doing absolutely nothing. I've felt overwhelmed, first with one kid, and now with two--I've found sitting doing nothing really helps because otherwise I end up frustrated when I can't accomplish even one task. Kids seem to know when mama is trying so desperately to do something, and they respond "accordingly" (as in, protest).

Anyway, it's all relative, it's all about expectations. If you expect to have tons of free-time in our messed up culture with our style of parenting, you're going to be very disappointed and pissed off. If you expect to enjoy the art of doing nothing and of being present, you will be quite full-filled.


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## kamesennin

.


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## mollyeilis

*pbandj*, I know from experience that you don't have to have a crib baby to get breaks. DS dropped his second nap before he was one, and once he did that, he could sleep for more hours at night. Not that he always sleeps through, but he can stay in bed, continuing to be put back to sleep easily, once he stopped that second nap during the day.

We don't put DS to bed early. His bedtime starts at 9, and is usually successful by 10. But I have DH's help, even though he wakes up to be at work an hour away at 7am. We each help DS in our own ways, depending on what DH needs (he has rituals, but changes the exact order/time depending on what he needs). Even though your DH is studying, can't he help a little bit?

We end up with a baby who has been toothbrushed (DH's job), read to (DH's job), and calmed down (DH), then "milk" is called to duty, then DS will either fall asleep or need to be walked (usually DH's job), and eventually he falls asleep with me. I then get up, and DS is usually so asleep that he doesn't notice for a couple hours, at which time I should be in bed, too. DH has usually gone to bed somewhere between DS and me.

I take heavy advantage of nap times, which maybe you can't b/c of the other kids, but that's my heaviest email/surfing time. I try to not do housework during that time, saving that for when I have help (DS).







And then some of the housework is DH's job anyway (dishwashing and folding laundry, and taking care of our cat).

Anyway, I post all that to show that there *can* be a middle ground, and that it's NOT b/c of the ECing or the babywearing etc. If it were, then my son would be like that too. Rather it's personality and circumstance...if you can get DH's help, it might be possible to help her to sleep without you right in bed during her sleep (I would enlist DH's help just b/c that way it's not ALL on you, and it shows her that something is different). How, exactly? I don't know. But it might be possible.


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## mollyeilis

Yesterday was DS's second birthday, and we had a party at a park. He was the only child there, and most of the guests do not have kids.

The guys seem OK, they are willing to watch from a bit of a distance and to play WITH him if he asks. But the women were just all over him. My good friend can't resist yelling "you're going to fall!!!!!" at him. She was tweaking if I let him take off by himself, even though it was OBVIOUS I was watching (like a hawk) him.

Another friend took napkins to wipe off the slide, before he went down. We had 5 changes of clothing for him. She knew that, he'd already been changed once. But she just felt the leftover from the earlier drizzle was just too much, and she had to wipe off the water. She finally gave it up, when he'd gone down, despite the wet, about 6 times...DH was there and convinced her that he just didn't much seem to care, and she finally agreed.

But it was nothing but "be careful, you're going to fall, watch out", all day from some of those friends.... Also lots of "he's so FAST! how is he so fast?"...well, he's 2, and he's been walking since he was...10 months? That's a lot of practice!

Then again the only time he DID fall was when everyone else was up at our car, packing up, and I was watching him. He was REALLY super-tired by that time and randomly decided to go down the slope. I was following him slowly, b/c my eyesight isn't good as the sun goes down (dang Lasik surgery) and wanted to make sure I could see him...and he got to the gravel path (same way he'd run down a thousand times that day), and BANG, face-plant.









I have to think it's b/c of all the "you're going to fall" messages from the whole day, rather than my benign presence that caused him to fall at that point. That, or his exhaustion.









but anyway, boy oh boy is it exhausting to hear all the negatives coming from so many people all day!


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## AmyMN

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollyeilis*
I take heavy advantage of nap times, which maybe you can't b/c of the other kids, but that's my heaviest email/surfing time. I try to not do housework during that time, saving that for when I have help (DS).







And then some of the housework is DH's job anyway (dishwashing and folding laundry, and taking care of our cat).

This is great. I think it's a really good idea to not use your free time during the day to do work! More mamas like myself need to read that. Your dh sounds wonderful. Thanks for sharing.


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## mollyeilis

Thanks, Amy.









*****
Spent some time at a festival today with the aforementioned "you're going to fall!!!" friend.







: Ugh.

We'd sit on the grass to eat, and DS would start wandering. I don't trust all the people around us, and I am moving slow today (worn out from the party and his recent weight gain, I guess) so I didn't want him to go TOO far, but he'd get 5 feet away from us, nothing but clear grass between, and she'd be yelling at him to come back! Whatever!

It really does crystallize what I WANT to do, when I see people doing what I DON'T want to do, especially when they are doing it to my kid.

Rather than make some deal about it, because I do like some help and don't want her to just sit on her hands when he starts to run off, I just kept telling him as we brought him back that I'd *like* to let him wander, but I'm slow and there are crowds and dogs and such, and so he needed to stay closer than he was. Yeah, it's a compromise, but as seen by my earlier posts, I'm not quite as CC in action as I WANT to be.









But gracious, *yelling* at a kid to come back (vs yelling "stop" if there's serious danger)? Ooh yeah, let me come back to THAT.


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## LAHP100

I've been lurking on this thread for a while and trying to learn from all of your posts, and I just had to post with a great experience DS and I had today!

I've been trying really hard to avoid being a "no" parent, which is difficult b/c we're living at my parents' house for the year. (There is not ONE ROOM in this house that he can play in freely without touching something he "shouldn't" be touching!) It's very frustrating, but I've found that avoiding "no, no" and other negative comments does a good job of keeping him from "getting into trouble" (gosh, I hate that phrase!!!) in the first place! When I do have to keep him from doing something, I try to use clear words (ex. "We don't hit the dog. Look, we pat her like this...") rather than just barking something out. I should add that DS is 12 mos old.

Anyway, today my mother and I were eating lunch at a sidewalk cafe. DS had already eaten, so I decided to let him stroll around a bit. Of course, my mother was nervous, but I tried to set a positive example. I didn't yell out, "Be careful!" when he walked toward the street, but I kept a close eye on him. And guess what? He didn't even try to leave the sidewalk!! He looked in the windows of a couple of stores on either side of us, and he ran in and out of the cafe and babbled at passers-by, but he never approached the street, even when loud motorcycles passed! I was so proud and excited. Even the cafe owner commented, "Wow, he's being so good! I can't believe he hasn't dashed into the street yet!" (I guess other people besides my mother were nervous, too...







)

So thank you all for your great advice, ideas and encouragement of other posters... you are helping more people than you know!!


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## hookahgirl

Ugh my parents did the "be careful" thing the other day!

DD was having a good time and getting pretty close to the doorframe, I was sitting not 5 feet away from her. She tripped up and I watched her, not saying anything. Yeah, she was pretty close to the wall, but she didnt hit it.
My parents were SO confused, they couldnt understand why I didnt say anythign to her. I simply said "well she didnt hit her head, did she?" and everytime they said "well she COULD have!" I replied "well, she didnt" over and over everytime they said it.

So, my mom was in the kitchen and and was getting close to the door, but she wasnt going to run into it at all. I yelled to her "whoa, mom WATCH OUT!" and boom, she hit the doorframe.
I said "i rest my case"









Hopefully they understand now why I do what I do.

The weird thing is they totally raised me the CC way, there was just no name for it. They tell me"it was different then"........I wonder what that means?!?!


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## EnviroBecca

Quote:

It really does crystallize what I WANT to do, when I see people doing what I DON'T want to do








My partner and I have learned a lot about our parenting ideals by discussing what we've seen other people do "wrong"!

Quote:

They tell me"it was different then"........I wonder what that means?!?!
I think it means, "We perceived life as less dangerous then because the media weren't constantly yammering fear at us." At least, that seems to be what most people mean when they say that.

EnviroBaby is getting very good at eating with a fork and drinking from a full-sized glass. People in restaurants, at church dinners, etc. seem surprised that we even let him try.


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## henhao

Hey all,

I'm curious about something. Having grown up in American culture (the "watch out! and don't fall!" culture) I'm curious about the balance of letting DD figure out what's dangerous.

Do you think babies know what's dangerous at all? Will they see a swimming pool and stay away naturally? In CC, the author provide an anecdote about a family that gated off the swimming pool. One day their child got in through the gate someone left open and -- you guessed it -- drowned.

Also, in CC, the author recounts how one baby played near a ditch and never fell in and others played near large knives and never cut themselves.

I'm not sure I can shake my culture 100% to do 100% CC. However, I plan to use as many of the ideas as I can handle. =)

Your thoughts are appreciated!


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## henhao

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HotMama*
As I sit here nursing my week old babe, I must say babies are for oggling. Even in the Yequena culture, babies were oggled. It is one way folks in our culture still connect, by collectively loving up the kids. Not being child-centered doesn't mean pushing people away. We fit it into our culture the best we can and it can embrace the oggling from our community, IMHO.

Ooo, that's a good point. Thank you for helping me see the situation in a new way!


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## EnviroBecca

Quote:

Do you think babies know what's dangerous at all? Will they see a swimming pool and stay away naturally? In CC, the author provide an anecdote about a family that gated off the swimming pool. One day their child got in through the gate someone left open and -- you guessed it -- drowned.
Well, I am skeptical about that particular anecdote as presented, but I agree with the general idea that keeping a child completely away from potentially dangerous things tends to dull the child's self-preserving instincts. I believe babies naturally fear falling and have many innate or early-developing ways to sense danger. This belief has been strengthened considerably by watching my own child.

For example, I posted six months ago, on Page 17:

Quote:

EnviroBaby is a great stair climber! He learned to go up about a month ago. Then he wanted to go down, so he crawled to the edge of the top step (I was right there watching) and looked down. He stretched his hand tentatively toward the next step down, but just as he reached it he felt himself begin to tip forward, so he pulled back. After a few rounds of this, he decided he couldn't go down headfirst and stopped trying. He then studied the problem by climbing on and off a cushion in various directions. Then he tried going down the stairs in a sideways-until-one-leg-is-down-then-backward fashion and was quite successful. He has slipped a couple of times but hasn't taken a serious fall. We have a gate only at the top of the stairs.
His understanding of the possibility of falling seemed to enable him to behave safely at the top of the stairs. In fact, that gate we had lasted less than a month: One of the screw-eyes pulled out of the wall (the fire-wall between rowhouses, which is concrete and very difficult to screw things into because it tends to crumble) and we set aside the gate until we could fix it, but we noticed that EnviroBaby was quite aware of where the top of the stairs was and had no intention of plunging headlong, so we just put the gate away. He is now extremely adept at stairs and is working on ladders at the playground.

By comparison, some of our friends do not allow their children to try climbing stairs because they're so afraid of falls. In one case, they are particularly nervous because the stairs in their home have open treads, but when their child who is NEARLY THREE YEARS OLD approaches any staircase, they scoop her up and say, "No, you can't climb stairs; you might fall." She does want to try, but with no practice at all and having been told over and over again that she'll fall...









OTOH, I think Liedloff may be overstating her case a bit regarding how much assumptions of children's incompetence actually affect the children when the assumers are not around. I wonder if I were babysitting the above child and allowed her to climb the stairs and expected that she could do so, if she'd still be likely to fall? I've often seen kids doing some forbidden thing quite competently until the moment they realize their parents have seen that they're doing it, then falling or breaking or cutting or whatever the parent warned about--as if the expectation is held by the parent and doesn't affect the child until the parent's attention "infects" the situation. Also, I often have conversations like this with my Girl Scouts:
ME: Okay, cut this zucchini into sticks for dipping.
GIRL: I can't use that sharp knife. I'll cut myself.
ME: You will?! Why?
GIRL:







I mean, that's why my mom says I'm not allowed to use sharp knives.
ME: Oh, I see. Well, this is how you do it safely. [instructions and demonstration of zucchini cutting]
Haven't lost a finger yet.


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *muse*
I'm in Berkeley!

HEY!






















This is great! Let's go to Totland! or the Aquatic Park or...
Wait, how old are your kids?


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## PrincessDoll

About the pool/falling comment, I try to be as CC as possible with my ds. I have even let him "fall" a bit to learn the correct way of getting off bed, or going down stairs. However, if he is at the playground at a sizable height, he insists on trying to step off thinking that the ground is right there. He doesn't seem to register that the ground is far off. With the pool, just the other day we went...he continually ran up to the edge of the pool and tried to step in it thinking that he could stand on the water.

He is going through this partly for 2 reasons...First, he is trying to learn to go up/down stairs upright now so he doesn't really understand difference between stairs versus edge of play area. Second, his temperament is an impulsive one...he tends to do many things without thinking/contemplating as EnviroBecca's dc did. Btw, ds is 14 months old.

So to address the issue, I certainly would gate an inground pool but I would try to provide many opportunities for dc to comprehend that pool is deep and if you step in it you will go under water. Hope I made sense...I'm thinking a bit incoherently.


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## hookahgirl

The whole point of CC, I think, is that you make sure things you dont want the babes to get into are actually AWAY from the kids. SO, gateing a pool would make sense. It isnt about expecting kids to keep out of everything, but to keep the things you dont want kids to get into away from them!

Our house really isnt childproofed at all. My DD knows what she can touch and what she cant. I took the "mystery" out of everything eles and she doesnt touch it, the wires and what not are of no interest to her because she has always been around them! Anyone eles do this? I feel bad having people with kids over, because there is so much out in the open that could be of intrest to a child that hasnt grown up around it!


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## Ellien C

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hookahgirl*
The whole point of CC, I think, is that you make sure things you dont want the babes to get into are actually AWAY from the kids. SO, gateing a pool would make sense. It isnt about expecting kids to keep out of everything, but to keep the things you dont want kids to get into away from them!

Well, I disagree with the above point and think it's one of the places where AP and CC diverge. I don't think tribal people have the luxury of keeping things away from other peoples in their tribe - fires, knives, axes, general dangers in the jungle etc.

But I had the same experience with wires and most of my household stuff. My DD also walked right off the edge of into the public pool while my head was turned the other way. And she knew it was deep and had practiced wading into the gradual entry pool. It really surprised me because she never walked off the edge of the dock at the lake. And 2 older men sitting at the edge fished right out with me. I was starting to engage in some mommy guilt, but the two guys were so nonchalant and casual about it. I mean they barely stopped their conversation while they fished her out. And they gave her to me with a - it happens, don't worry - kinda thing. And DD was surprised, but not panicked or crying. But I think if I had reacted really strongly - like Oh MY GOD - She could have drowned, the whole situation would have been different, including how we were around the pool later.

Anyway, I think we safety, each person needs to go only so far as their comfort level allows. If *you* are really afraid of your kid with knives, at edge, on particularly dangerous stairs or around water, than *you* do need to take precautions because that fear will always be there and it can be read by the kids. On the other hand, some things just happen, like falls down the stairs, off the bed, or even into the pool, and kids are almost always OK.


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## PrincessDoll

Quote:

There is *no essential difference* between purely instinctive behavior, with its expectations and tendencies, and *our equally instinctive expectation of a suitable culture,* one in which we can develop our tendencies and fulfill our expectations, first, of precise treatment in infancy, and gradually of a (more flexible) kind of treatment and circumstance, and a range of requirements to which adaptation is ready, eager, and able to be made.

pp. 22-27, The Continuum Concept, Revised edition ©1977, 1985 by Jean Liedloff, published by Addison-Wesley, paperback, 20th printing

Note: key word here being suitable culture....that does correspond to hookahgirl wrote.

Quote:

As they grow older and look under blades of grass to see what's growing, or cutting up worms, or tasting things, and they hear, "don't do that, no don't do that, bad, naughty." Their faith in their own instincts are constantly undermined. "Don't touch that, you'll hurt yourself." "Don't get up on that, you'll fall." If babies were allowed to trust and develop their innate wisdom and intelligence they wouldn't fall into the swimming pool. They wouldn't dream of it.

taken from the article: Allowing Human Nature To Work Successfully.
A very candid conversation with Jean Liedloff,Author of The Continuum Concept. Originally published in the Fall/1998 issue of Touch The Future
Interview by Michael Mendizza
My interpretation of this quote is not so much the gating of the pool that undermines cc principles, it's the constant barrage of "Don'ts" that undermine cc principles.


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## widemouthedfrog

Hi folks,

This is my first post in this forum, so I apologize if this has been discussed before. I did a quick check and couldn't see it anywhere....

How do you show your kids that the oven is hot, without having them get burned? My dd is 11 months and pulling up all over. I like to have her roam the kitchen. Could put her on my back when the oven is on, but there will come a time when she isn't on my back and the oven is still on. Even if she's familiar with the word "hot," she doesn't associate it with pain. Nor does she know "ouch". I'd like to explain it rather than just say "no". Right now I just relocate her. Any suggestions?

I've enjoyed lurking on this thread, by the way. Very interesting. Don't know how cc I am, but I am an outdoor educator who's fond of exploring,and I want my dd to feel free to explore without a lot of fear or "no"s....

Tricia


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## kamesennin

.


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## mommaof3

We don't babyproof, but we do put up cleaning supplies in the early years, and we have "limits" (not too many). I have found that restrictions like gates and latches and bumpers on everything actually disable children...we don't even do sippy cups. My 18 month old does do vaccuming and sweeping, and my 4.5 year old daughter handles cleaning supplies very well (one of her jobs is to spray the kitchen table off with natural cleaner and wipe it after meals), and this morning my almost 7 year old made us breakfast, which included dealing with the toaster oven (waffles), cutting fruit, and cooking sausages on the stovetop. I think the important thing is to just assume that children are capable, at the same time, we don't live in the jungle...my children are much more adept at climbing slopes or stepping over water on rocks then dealing with steep stairways or other man-made things that are not in their continuum, we've had to patiently train them to properly use the DVD player, etc. so that we don't end up sacrificing expensive electronics to the "discovery" gods!!

So, do any of you CC mamas practice Elimination Communication?


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## EvansMomma

Hi all;
I just discovered this thread as I had some time to myself, and I am absolutely INTRIGUED. I have never heard of this book OR this concept in my life. I've unfortunately been surrounded by mega-mainstreamers all my life, so finding MDC was a blessing in disguise, and NOW this thread has me all crazy inside.

About halfway through reading this thread, I decided to check my local library's online catalogue to see if they had this book, and NOWHERE can I find it. I am now a woman on a mission, because from what people are posting, this sounds like my cup'o'tea.

(If anyone has a spare copy of TCC they would be kind enough to part with, I'd pay or return it as soon as I was finished).

I am not sure if this is the type of idea my husband would be comfortable with, as I'm just finally starting to de-mainstream him and have had him lurking on MDC a couple times on my account to read at will. He is just very afraid that people will think he's "WEIRD" or something, I dunno. I don't blame him, he was raised by a single dad and in an area not open to 'alternative' thinking. So have any of you had trouble with a spouse not understanding, or not willing to understand, this type of concept?

Okay, so I skipped a bazillion posts so I could get to the end and post my little response here. I have a 4 month old son, and I have been just constantly having this nagging feeling that doing things "the normal way" just isn't right for us. I want something MORE from parenting. And I feel like my job as his Mama is so much more than just getting him THROUGH babyhood and childhood, I want him to experience life and learn and live, and the way most parents around here do things just isn't conducive to that.

Okay, I am now going to go through ALL the posts (instead of skipping from page 1 to page 24), and read more. This is by far one of the most refreshing things I've come across in my time as a parent, and I think I may be visiting this thread more often. I feel now, like I want to do a cleansing of how I parent Evan, I want to toss the "must have items" that people made me think I needed, and I want to just be MORE, if that makes sense.

AHHH It has been so long since I felt this sort of excitement and I'm about to burst. My husband is working til early into the morning, but you better believe when he gets home he'll get an earful about this! I hope he takes the time to learn with me, and not be afraid of it.

YAY FOR THIS THREAD!!!









~Nadine, a newbie to this idea who is looking forward to learning and changing.


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## mollyeilis

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EvansMomma*
Hi all;
I just discovered this thread as I had some time to myself, and I am absolutely INTRIGUED. I have never heard of this book OR this concept in my life. I've unfortunately been surrounded by mega-mainstreamers all my life, so finding MDC was a blessing in disguise, and NOW this thread has me all crazy inside.

About halfway through reading this thread, I decided to check my local library's online catalogue to see if they had this book, and NOWHERE can I find it. I am now a woman on a mission, because from what people are posting, this sounds like my cup'o'tea.

(If anyone has a spare copy of TCC they would be kind enough to part with, I'd pay or return it as soon as I was finished).

I am not sure if this is the type of idea my husband would be comfortable with, as I'm just finally starting to de-mainstream him and have had him lurking on MDC a couple times on my account to read at will. He is just very afraid that people will think he's "WEIRD" or something, I dunno. I don't blame him, he was raised by a single dad and in an area not open to 'alternative' thinking. So have any of you had trouble with a spouse not understanding, or not willing to understand, this type of concept?

Okay, so I skipped a bazillion posts so I could get to the end and post my little response here. I have a 4 month old son, and I have been just constantly having this nagging feeling that doing things "the normal way" just isn't right for us. I want something MORE from parenting. And I feel like my job as his Mama is so much more than just getting him THROUGH babyhood and childhood, I want him to experience life and learn and live, and the way most parents around here do things just isn't conducive to that.

Okay, I am now going to go through ALL the posts (instead of skipping from page 1 to page 24), and read more. This is by far one of the most refreshing things I've come across in my time as a parent, and I think I may be visiting this thread more often. I feel now, like I want to do a cleansing of how I parent Evan, I want to toss the "must have items" that people made me think I needed, and I want to just be MORE, if that makes sense.

AHHH It has been so long since I felt this sort of excitement and I'm about to burst. My husband is working til early into the morning, but you better believe when he gets home he'll get an earful about this! I hope he takes the time to learn with me, and not be afraid of it.

YAY FOR THIS THREAD!!!









~Nadine, a newbie to this idea who is looking forward to learning and changing.

Here's the book at the Canadian Amazon site.









I found with CC concepts it was better to SHOW DH rather than talk his head off.

We just moved to a house with stairs, and with less than 24 hours of really practicing stairs, up, down, all sorts of ways, DS has become quite an expert. I was really worried about them (more about MY reaction than HIS expertise) but he's proving CC right and my fear wrong.


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## kamesennin

.


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## PrincessDoll

Welcome Nadine...I'm sure you'll come to love it here. Check out JL's website.


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## EvansMomma

Thank you. I finished reading this whole thread, and immediately called my Mom, who by the way is not really into 'alternative' parenting, and was just rambling like a crazy person. She didn't get it, but I HAD to talk about it.

Ok, off to find the website.

I am sure you all will be seeing more of me, and I am sure I will be inundating you with a kazillion questions!







Thanks for being here, at a time when I was really needing to find "my place".


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## PrincessDoll

http://www.continuum-concept.org/

That is the link for you. Also, on her site you can sign up to be part of the email listserve. I love it - very informative!


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## InDaPhunk

I let DS bust his butt (or get into possible butt-busting scenarios) without my breaking a sweat....does this make me CC







?

In all seriousness, I just finished reading the majority of the thread- took me a day or two, I'll admit, during naps, etc- and I'd like to add my vote to a CC forum- though I'm excited enough that there's a thread. I've yet to read the book but had previously read the portions on the net while reading on various AP topics. I plan to order JL's book as well as others mentioned in the thread (Ishmael, et al.), read them, and then mail them to deployed DH so he can keep abreast of what's happening here at home. It meshes well with my innate parenting instinct and he's a blank slate (in respects to parenting) so it should be easy to mold him into a Dad-Of-My-Own-Creation (j/k). He really is open to lots of stuff and I think he'll dig it all.

I'm currently facing a challenge: I'm having a difficult time reconciling the parent I am/hope to be and my ability to not go







with my husband deployed. To be specific, my desire to not leave DS with someone he's not completely and totally comfortable with is conflicting with my need to let my neighbor (or semi-close friend) watch him- even here at the house- while I get a brief breather here and there. Maybe that's a challenge best posted in the military mom's tribe thread, but if anyone has any input or suggestions, I'm wide open, whether it's practical ideas or even a new way of looking at things. I already feel like a jerk for even needing some moments where my brain just takes a chill, so please go easy on me







.


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## rzberrymom

Quote:

Do you think babies know what's dangerous at all? Will they see a swimming pool and stay away naturally? In CC, the author provide an anecdote about a family that gated off the swimming pool. One day their child got in through the gate someone left open and -- you guessed it -- drowned.
My parents have a pool gate, and my 3 and 5 year old nephews have spent hours breaking into that thing (the break-in attempts started not long after they could walk). Isn't that mainly what Liedloff was pointing out--that they WILL get in, and then they'll be vulnerable as they haven't developed their natural instinct to stay away.

For us, that's why we stay away from babyproofing with gates, locks, etc. The urge to protect is noble, but there's just NO WAY to guarantee that they'll never get in.

I guess I don't feel the point of CC is to keep things you don't want them to get into away from the babe, as a PP mentioned. I think the point is to let them develop their instincts so that they have a full set of skills for coping with potentially dangerous situations--the pool is gated but it may one day be accidently left open (same thing with the stairs), knives are kept out of sight but a child may encounter one at a friend's house, etc.


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *widemouthedfrog*
Hi folks,

How do you show your kids that the oven is hot, without having them get burned? My dd is 11 months and pulling up all over. I like to have her roam the kitchen. Could put her on my back when the oven is on, but there will come a time when she isn't on my back and the oven is still on. Even if she's familiar with the word "hot," she doesn't associate it with pain. Nor does she know "ouch". I'd like to explain it rather than just say "no". Right now I just relocate her. Any suggestions?

Tricia


My ds really didn't get the concept of "hot" until he actually burned his little finger one day on the outside of the stove... Not that i reccomend letting a baby get burned, but he definitely got it after that!

On the pool thing... i thought about this a lot when ds was smaller: I think the main issue is that sudden drop-offs into deep water like that or not really natural, hence not part of the continuum. We took ds to lakes and the ocean as a baby ( walking at 9mos), and he totally self-regulated himself as far as how deep he went, and even if he wanted to go in at all.


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## widemouthedfrog

Yeah, I'm trying not to make a big fuss over the "this is hot this is dangerous stay away" bit, because I think that a big fuss actually attracts kids. Hey, it's interesting. But I'd prefer not to introduce "hot" by burning. Maybe I will start with warm things, or ouch, and go from there. If I say ouch when she gets bumped then perhaps she'll understand?


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## zansmama

Yeah, dp used to touch the stove lightly and say "OW!, hot" in a very dramatic way... I'm not sure how much ds understood, but you could try it... i think yours is a little bit older than ds was when he actually burned himself, so who knows, maybe he'll totally get it.


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## henhao

toys...today dd played with a harmonica, glass jar full of dried rosebuds, wine corks, and 2 staplers. Dh said she can play with staplers?

I said, "why not?"
He said, "good point."

CC is cool!

Yesterday, DD ate a leaf and my mom kept saying no nonononono. My DH started to take it out of her mouth. I asked is the leafe toxic. He said no, so I said leave it there/it's fine. Sure enough, baby spit the leaf out about 1.5 feet. I didn't know a baby could spit that far! Well, she learned for herself that she doesn't want to eat a dried leaf. She did eat some grass and i'm okay with that as I know it had no chemicals on it.

Earlier she had a poker chip in her mouth. i watched her like a hawk. she was not interested in swallowing it (really too big for that anyway yet I still was a bit worried) and then i put it away when she was done exploring it. she had a field day looking through a junk box and listening to me play a harmonica form the box. then while she kept looking through the box at wine corks, etc, i read and lifted weights and packed for an upcoming trip.

i love letting her explore and have noticed that DH still leaves junk everywhere that he doesn't want her to get into. i told him to get it out of the way because i'm going to let her look at it. LOL


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## mollyeilis

For DS, the learning of "hot" has been, well, a continuum. Whenever I get hurt (often) I say "ouch", so he learned from listening that that's a word to indicate something that hurts (in this language, at least). We delayed foods so he was older when he encountered warm/hot food (other than body temperature, LOL), so I don't really know how to do it with a little one (and we had the kitchen gated off), but it seems like just recently I put his hand over a bowl of hot food (or maybe over a hot pan?) and explained that the feeling in his hand was warmth from hot food, and the closer he got to the source the hotter it was going to be. Let me back up and say this wasn't some huge enforced *you must learn now* moment, it just happened to happen, and my putting his hand there was more after I held his hand back, as he tried to stick his hand in the hot whatever it was. So I explained that, and we practiced putting his hand near and far and let him see what the differences were in what he felt, and since then he puts his hand *over* something to check if it's hot.







It's really cool to watch that. Now we have an open plan living room/kitchen, and I'd really have to buy stock in baby gates (and drill into the wall, which isn't something we did before and isn't something I want to do now) to keep him out, and that wouldn't work anyway b/c he can climb over now.









Anyway, it's a continuum of learning, I've noticed.


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## EnviroBecca

We've had an easy time with learning "hot". I have hot drinks several times a day ~10 months of the year, and I knew before my December baby was even born that I was going to disregard the books' and magazines' warning to never hold a hot drink and a baby at the same time! Thus, from birth my son has heard, "Not for you; it's hot." and seen that steam rises from those objects. I often hold him on one hip while stirring cooking food with the other hand, too, and he's seen us blow on bites of food before we eat them or offer them to him. By 10 months, he was puffing up his cheeks and blowing whenever he felt something was hot or saw something steaming--even across the street!







A few times he's been mildly burned--by a droplet from my hot drink, by food that's hotter than we thought, or once by touching the instant-hot-water tap at a friend's house which had a few drops clinging to it--and we've made a point of saying, "It was HOT! It hurt you!" as we comfort him. He is now very careful of hot things and keeps back from anything we tell him is hot.

We haven't done EC, but just recently we've started leaving EnviroBaby diaper-free at night. I can't explain what gave me the idea.







He had a persistent rash and needed more diaper-free time, and we were having trouble working it into our schedule...but until the first night we tried this, I thought he was peeing in his sleep all night. That is, I thought it intellectually, but as I was going to sleep that first night I felt strangely certain that I would not be waking up in a puddle. Turns out he doesn't pee until he starts waking up! I just posted on the EC forum for advice on how to get him to the bathroom at that point without making him mad (he's awake enough to pee before he feels like getting out of bed) but I'm thrilled that he has the ability to hold it all night! Hardcore EC-ers would say we trained him out of that by diapering, but apparently we didn't.

We haven't been to a swimming pool since he learned to walk, but we go to playgrounds several times a week, and EnviroBaby has never walked off the edge of a playground platform. I'd suspected that was not just a CC thing but related to his temperament, and PrincessDoll's post confirms it.

We don't babyproof much but have moved specific items that became problematic because he was fascinated by them and they were dangerous or important to us. Mostly he gets to play with stuff. No sharp knives yet, but he can have butter knives and forks as long as he doesn't run around with them.

My partner is finally reading TCC. After the section about birth and early infancy, he gave me a long tearful apology for failing to intervene more with the hospital personnel when EnviroBaby was born. I accepted the apology, but I understand why he didn't do more: Our midwife, whom we trusted to avoid unnecessary intervention, really let us down by stating unequivocally that things had to be done a particular way because there was meconium discharge just before delivery. The hospital procedure was to cut the cord immediately (we'd wanted it left attached until it stopped pulsing), take the baby away WITHOUT LETTING ME SEE OR TOUCH HIM FOR EVEN ONE SECOND to the other side of the room, suction his nose and mouth with a rubber bulb, and then (this is the part I didn't know until this recent conversation) leave him there under a heat lamp and hand the bulb to his father without ANY instruction in how to use it!!! (He did know how, but they didn't know that, and since it's possible to force stuff INTO the lungs if you use the bulb the wrong way, that's totally negligent!) He was on his own for half an hour before an orderly came and insisted on taking EnviroBaby to the ICU for observation, even though he was breathing fine, still without letting me see or touch him. EnviroDaddy feels guilty for not bringing EnviroBaby over to me during that half-hour, shoving past the people who were saying I couldn't hold him while I was getting stitches--I didn't need to HOLD him, just to see and touch him and know for sure that my baby was real and alive. I do wish EnviroDaddy had done more, but even more I wish I hadn't tried to "be brave" and "make the best of things" but had given voice to my feelings. If I had screamed ceaselessly, "GIVE ME MY BABY!!! MY BABY NEEDS ME!!!" maybe they would have listened; at least they would've known how I felt. I don't know if it really affected EnviroBaby in the long run, but it affected me horribly. I'll never get over it never ever ever. Of course I did tell EnviroDaddy how I felt when our baby was in the ICU and we were left completely alone together for an hour (it didn't even occur to the hospital or our midwife that we might need some kind of support or counseling!) but he didn't quite realize until reading this book: I felt as though my baby had died. I knew intellectually that it wasn't true, but to my body and spirit that was the only possible explanation for my empty arms. Everything was wrong wrong wrong. The after-birth treatment was far more painful and upsetting than it should have been because I wasn't getting the flood of hormones that would have been triggered by holding my baby. I told myself that our trusted midwife wouldn't allow this horrible thing to happen if it wasn't absolutely necessary to save my baby's life, but I just KNEW that it wasn't; every cry and snuffle I heard from him told me absolutely that what he needed was ME. And at that point I assumed they'd used some kind of special respiratory equipment that had to be set up on the other side of the room--it's just now that EnviroDaddy told me it was only a rubber bulb, which they could've used while EnviroBaby was lying on me with the cord still attached!!!







: I can't believe they did this to us!!! Yet I know that this is routine and is far from the worst they do.

Well. Pardon my ranting.


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## mollyeilis

Oh, Enviro...I'm so sorry that happened to you guys. I know the feeling of never ever being able to get over something...major cyberhugs from me to you.

Those stupid stupid rules about meconium...our wannabe-trusted midwives tornadoed me to the hospital past a STACK of research studies that show that meconium, in a healthy, term, mature-lunged baby was not a problem...they just wanted to dump us. And dump us they did, into the arms of the den of tigers (do tigers have dens?).

As my boy came out and was handed to a nurse, he coughed, and started YELLING, not wailing like a newborn, not screaming like he was hurt, but hollering as if to say "WHAT THE ********* ARE YOU PEOPLE DOING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"...and then the nurses had the GALL to write that he was slow to start breathing on his records.







: liars.

Anyway, your rant is heard.

*****
We don't have the guts to go diaperfree at night (I'm slow to wake up sometimes) but we *could*, as DS holds his pee until the morning as well. I have one of those BBLPs, and just bring it up onto the bed to sit him on for his morning pee.







I can't be bothered to get out of bed yet.







I'm washing fewer and fewer diapers now; only the ones we're too busy or he's too absorbed in whatever he's doing, to catch on time...

*****

DH is NOT getting it, grr! The builder was at our house, fixing things that weren't finished before the house was purchased (we're tenants), and DH and DS were looking around outside. I finally heard DH silently bringing a screaming DS in, and asked what was going on...DS was climbing on rocks, DS was throwing dirt at the next door house, DS was doing something else DH decided was forbidden...I asked DH if he'd offered any "allowed" things, and DH said yes, but I doubt it...he wasn't talking; how could he have offered anything to DS?

Why can't he play on the rocks on our property? He might fall. Onto soft, uncut grass. Why can't he throw dirt? Because it's rude. Was it hitting the house? No. Why can't he do the other thing? Because *some stupid reason*...







:

I'm going to blame it on mutual exhaustion from this move, as well as frustration b/c the builder had to have us here while he was here, rather than our planned trip to our apartment to continue packing...

_can't play on rocks b/c he might fall...russa frussa mrussa..._







:

(should edit to mention that the rocks are part of the retaining wall. a rock wall, as it were. perfect for climbing. he wouldn't have gotten very high, and DH could easily have caught him if DS fell. MY fear about it would be spiders and such (and a hidden fear of rattlesnakes from having grown up in CA), but that's not exactly the same as "he might fall".)


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## EnviroBecca

Thanks for the sympathy, Molly. It's nice to be here where people understand.









I'm glad my partner isn't much into the "he might fall" kind of thing. EnviroBaby is learning to climb steps standing up, and EnviroDaddy's been letting him practice on a retaining wall down the street that is "stepped" higher and higher as it goes uphill; when he's standing on the top level holding your hand, your hand is up near your head and his feet are at shoulder level! We wouldn't do it without holding hands at this stage, but I bet he'll be capable of balancing there unassisted at an age most people will find appallingly young!









EnviroBaby seems to have inherited his father's natural grace and good physical judgment. I was very clumsy as a kid and had poor balance...but my parents weren't into "you might fall" either; they encouraged me to keep trying if I felt comfortable and would help hold me up, etc. In particular, I remember as a preschooler enjoying walking on curbs (I grew up in a flat place with very few retaining walls, but I liked those too when available) but often losing my balance and falling into the street and gouging my knees. My parents invariably responded with, "Oops! Yeah, it's scary to fall. It hurts. And just when you were having such fun walking on the curb. Well, let's fix up those knees."









I saw in Parents Magazine







an article on playground etiquette saying not only that you should not allow your child to play on equipment designed for younger children, but that you should intervene when you see other parents do so. Whatever. EnviroBaby finds the big-kid equipment far more interesting than the toddler section, and I think it's really building his skills!


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## AmyMN

A while back, I asked the MDC boards if we could have a forum for The Continuum Concept. They wanted me to list all the topics involved, and explain in detail why we needed a separate forum. I haven't wanted to go through all that work; and no one else seemed to want to either. So....

How about under the FINDING YOUR TRIBE, we can have a thread for each topic we want discussed. In the subject line put "Continuum Concept mamas RE: ____" (in the blank put the specific topic)

I just started one myself about community: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...85#post5295385


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## Persephone

EnviroBecca, I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN. I had basically the same thing happen to me. Read the link in my sig to find out my birth story. I didn't write about what happened afterward, cause I was still processing at the time it was written. My waters broke and there was meconium, so they cut the cord right away (against my birth plan), suctioned her before she was all the way out, then when she came out, they put her on me for a SECOND. I barely got to look at her (and she was making that sad lip pouty face kids do so well. I was about to comfort her) before they took her away to be suctioned again. And then they did all the standard things to her. I felt it was wrong, but before I could get mad about it, I started hemmorhaging, and after that, didn't care about much. I feel SO GUILTY for what happened to her. And I"m really angry at the hospital for not letting me bond with her. It's completely reinforced my beliefs that homebirth is the only way to go for me. I KNEW nothing was wrong with her. But, when you're pushing, there's really no energy left over to argue.







I"m so sad about how they treated us immediately after the birth.









In other news, I'm really having to fight my urges to not let her explore. We haven't done any babyproofing yet, cause she's not really that mobile. The other day, she was rolling around on the bed, and she rolled near the edge. I told her if she rolled again, she'd roll off, and I put my arm there. Then, I thought, and I took my arm away, but I watched her. She did end up rolling off the bed, but I caught her arm, and she sort had a controlled fall. She didn't like it too much, though. She wasn't hurt. And the other day, she was reaching for the dirt in the garden, and I let her grab some, but not bring it to her mouth. Next time, maybe I'll let her explore with her mouth.

Anyway, that's my news here.


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## mollyeilis

Persephone, I don't know if you want other peoples' thoughts on the bed rolling thing, so if not, please ignore:

Rather than "you're going to roll off" (which she then obliged you by doing so, yes?), perhaps explaining, using words you know don't mean much to her, but doing it anyway..."there's an edge of the bed, and I know you might not know what that means, so let me show you, this is the bed (touch), and this is what is off the edge (space, air), and when you get close, you should slow down with your rolling (rolling? that young! wow) so you can feel the edge and stop". And I think DS was 6 month by the time it became relevant, so that's when we showed him, but since your girl is so mobile, you might as well show her how to go feet first now. It only took a little while on the bed (DS, DH and I) showing him several times how to get off feet first, and he had that skill from that day forward. We had boxspring/mattress on the floor, but the next time we took him on a trip and stayed at the Westin (obnoxiously tall beds) he went to the edge, turned around, and held onto the sheets as he slipped down to the floor, feet first. Yep, he plopped down onto his butt after, but it wasn't a fall, it was controlled.


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## PrincessDoll

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyMN*
A while back, I asked the MDC boards if we could have a forum for The Continuum Concept. They wanted me to list all the topics involved, and explain in detail why we needed a separate forum. I haven't wanted to go through all that work; and no one else seemed to want to either. So....

How about under the FINDING YOUR TRIBE, we can have a thread for each topic we want discussed. In the subject line put "Continuum Concept mamas RE: ____" (in the blank put the specific topic)

I just started one myself about community: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...85#post5295385

Ooh, its own forum! That would be so amazing!


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## henhao

EnviroMom--Hugs to you. I'm so sorry about your birthing experience.


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## henhao

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca*
I saw in Parents Magazine







an article on playground etiquette saying not only that you should not allow your child to play on equipment designed for younger children, but that you should intervene when you see other parents do so. Whatever. EnviroBaby finds the big-kid equipment far more interesting than the toddler section, and I think it's really building his skills!

It sounds to me like the article says not to let your older kids play on euiqpment for younger kids? I don't think that's so bad as some younger kids get intimidated by larger kids. A the playground the other day, a bunch of high schoolers were yelling, hitting the equipment to make musical noise and so on. I think some of the toddler set could be offput by that. Not to mention a 150 lb high schooler on a slide with a 20 lb toddler might not be such a great idea.

Hmmm...I'm open the idea I'm way off base!


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## Persephone

Molly, I appreciate the thoughts. I'm new at this whole mobile baby thing. I guess rolling at 4 months is early? She was rolling at 2 months, and she's working on crawling now. She can actually scoot a bit, when she's really motivated.

At the moment, dd is chewing on the handle of some scissors. Dh was holding the blades, so she couldn't chew on them, and I just said it's ok for her to explore the whole thing. And he jokingly said, "Maybe tomorrow I can show you my ax, baby girl!" How can I explain to him about intention and safety?


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## jrose_lee

Hi! I'm new to CC (book is coming at the library so waiting...). I've read lots of the articles and all the stuff on the website though. We've been doing a lot of it already without knowing it. Lots of in arms, cosleeping, breastfeeding etc. And lately I've been lots better about just going about my business and donig things around the house with ds in a carrier too. I have a few questions.....stemming from my lack of knowledge and experience on the subject and the fact that I was definitley NOT raised this way.

1) *Learning to crawl?* How do babies gain the muscle strength to crawl when they are constantly in arms? It sounds like around 6 months they just crawl out of your arms and have never been on the floor. Ds wasn't on the floor a ton, but he was a little bit. My dad, of course, claims they will never learn if they are not down there. They already bug us that we hold ds too much.

2) *In between phase?* Ds seems to be getting out of the in arms phase a little. I still like him to be there a lot though but he is starting to push away and want to be on the floor where he can scoot a bit and push up. What do I do in this phase between in arms and where he can help me do things? Just let him explore on his own? As long as his in arms needs were filled he will just be happy to explore on his own and come to me as needed? It makes me a little sad that this phase is almost done!







I liked it









3) *Expecting Certain Behavior* A little bit about the "just expecting" behavior and getting it, b/c you truly expect it. I really want to do this. I'm a little brainwashed into thinking that kids are going to not listen and act up. Can anyone give me thoughts and personal experience from this. How do you make yourself really believe they will comply and not sound wishy washy. Just do it?

4) *Safety* I don't have a prob with exploring. I think it's great. Unfortunately, I really do think that it is unsafe for babies to have certain materials in their mouths. I don't like ds to have plastic items or lots of mainstream toys/products b/c of all I've read about the chemicals and how it's bad for babes. Obviously not all of the things in my home can be made of completely natural things....especially the stuff he wants! Any advice?

I'd love to hear thoughts and such. This is so great!


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## EnviroBecca

I wrote:

Quote:

I saw in Parents Magazine







an article on playground etiquette saying not only that you should not allow your child to play on equipment designed for younger children, but that you should intervene when you see other parents do so.
Oops, I meant to write, "equipment designed for OLDER children". I agree with Henhao that it makes sense to get older kids off the equipment for younger kids if their behavior on it is dangerous or intimidating to the toddlers. (If a few preteens are sitting on the toddler slide talking, and no toddlers are wanting to use the slide now, I have no problem with that.) Similarly, if younger kids are on the equipment designed for older kids and their behavior is impeding the older kids (for example, when my toddler wants to sit on the bottom step of the narrow staircase that is the only way up to the top level, and kids want to get up there) a parent should guide the younger kids to appropriate behavior or remove them. What I object to is the idea that equipment designed for older children is so inherently dangerous to toddlers that they never should be allowed to explore it in any way.

Persephone, I had excess bleeding after giving birth, too--my midwife said it was 5cc below the criterion for a hemorrhage. I thought that was just the way it happened. But EnviroDaddy suggested after reading TCC that the sudden separation from my baby might have caused a shock response that delayed clotting.


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## kamesennin

.


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## mollyeilis

Crawling...well for us, DS was on the floor. I couldn't wear him all the time, plus it was summer and we were sweaty, and he enjoyed his time on the floor as I walked around, talking to him.









But all those hours in arms, developing the tiny little muscles we use for the infinitissemal balance adjustments, really do help a baby get good at moving and moving well.

The Parenting magazine...I bet that article was based on the insurance concerns of playgrounds...I doubt it had anything to do with actual development and whatnot, but rather just from the *fear of lawsuits* of playground equipment and owners...


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## zansmama

Diaper-free nights: actually, ds initiated the idea himself after I remarked a couple of times that his diaper was dry when he woke up.

Crawling: ds was sitting at 4 mos and crawling at 5 mos... startling us all.

Uptight dh's: well, actually, I have had the opposite situation. Dp is always letting ds do things that seemed dangerous to me (but he's never gotten hurt doing them...). I don't really have a problem with it any more, but when he was really tiny, I would freak out a bit. i think he's a much more natural CC-er than I am.


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## jrose_lee

Thank you! Yes, all of that makes perfect sense. We carried ds all the time and everyone was always commenting on his neck strength! I don't have a problem with ds exploring and would like to encourage it. I guess maybe as he gets older (he's 5 months by the way) he won't just automatically stick everything in his mouth. I could totally see letting him handle all kinds of stuff....I just don't want certain things going in his mouth I guess. Not b/c I'm afraid he'd swallow them or choke but b/c I've been doing lots of reading on the "Natural Home and Body" forum and it seems that lots of plastic things and such are just not ok for babes to suck on b/c they are toxic. Funny how teething rings are generally made of plastic! I guess he won't be at this stage forever so it won't always be a problem








Still trying to wrap my mind around the whole scissors, buttons etc......guess I must be really brainwashed into thinking these things are REALLLY dangerous


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## mollyeilis

I wanted to amend something I wrote before; I wasn't "using all my words". I meant that DS was on the floor much of the time, not that he was on the floor ALL of the time.







I should also mention that I wasn't doing much housework for months and months, so even if I had been wearing him, he wouldn't have gotten much of a sense of me doing much.









I remember thinking he was late to roll over and such, but he was pulling to stand at 6 months, so he was an interestingly mobile bebe.

Our babyproofing, other than the gates to protect kitchen and kitty, was mainly getting the things we didn't want mouthed OFF of his level, leaving the things we were cool with being mouthed there, and trying to keep an eye on him. I once seriously choked on a quarter when I was a toddler, and the ONLY reason I'm around is because it was at our neighbor's house, and she had long fake fingernails (my mom was a hippie and didn't grow her nails, let alone have fake ones) that she was able to pull the quarter out with (not the standard method of quarter extraction, but it worked)...so I keep coins and buttons away from him, even now...money is disgustingly dirty anyway...and not the good kind of dirt IMO.


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## pinkmilk

I'm interested in the cc approach to parenting and I'd like to tell everyone what I did yesterday with dd. She turned 2 in April. Yesturday I put all the ingredients for cookies(no sugar) in seperate containers and bowls on the table and gave her spoons and wooden spoons and just let her go to work. It was so hard for me to just step back and let her do her thing! But I did it. And she did amazingly!! She poured and stired and mixed and made a grand mess. In the end I helped her mix it well and gave her a cookie sheet to drop the dough onto. She made cookies and then did her own dishes afterwards. And then wanted to bath in the water she washed her dishes in and so I just let her!!! All in all this took about 2 1/2 hours. She had a blast, was the calmest I have ever seen her and was not her usual whinny self. It was amazing. I spent the very minimal amount of time "supervising" her and basically stayed in the other room unless she needed me(which wasn't that often)!
Anyway..it got me thinking about the cc and this tribe which I want to learn more from.


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## Persephone

nak

i'm having issues with finding stuff to do with dd-4 months. she comes with when i do chores, but what about when i'm not? i feel i don't interact with her enough.


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## pinkmilk

mostly with my little fire he loves to look at my face and talk. he likes when i sing songs and move him roughly from side to side when he's laying on the floor. he also likes to sit at the table and watch his family interact, laugh, argue, whathave you. try having her at eye level more...being around other kids so she can just watch...she will be amazed at the loudness and laughter of children!! fire loves all other children and is very happy when i have lots of kids around him.


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## UrbanSimplicity

Hello all, just found this thread and have read the first few pages....I'm just finishing up the book now.

My most immediate thought/question has to do with wearing baby and my own activity/movement, or lack there of. Especially as it concerns helping my dd "burn off" some of her own energy stores.

I live in nyc, have no backyard. I also work at home which is about 40% computer, 40% jewelry making, 20% moving around, filling and packing orders, errands, etc.

For those of you who are not able to be outside as much... working in gardens (sigh).... or who don't move so much around the house (i have a one room loft, not a whole house with stairs and toddlers to chase after!







) do your dc's get restless in their slings? my dd needs to be on the go in her sling, unless she is sleeping.

I guess I'm just looking for some comments regarding the CC and our more sedantary lifestyle. Don't get me wrong--I take my dd for a walk everyday, but I know i just cant provide the amount of movement our babies have evolved to expect!


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## widemouthedfrog

Ang, that sounds so great! I am looking forward to doing things like that with my dd.

Just curious - I am returning to work p/t soon (dh and grandma will be with dd, as will her auntie...talk about a tribe!). I work with children from preschool to high school age, doing environmental/outdoor ed programs. I've found that becoming a parent has really changed my approach, and I am wondering if any of you know about people who integrate cc and slightly more formal education... I'd imagine that cc would go well with an unschooling approach. I guess I am curious about how I am going to integrate my new thoughts into a program with a theme and a certain time allotted to it. And of course, our programs integrate into the standard school curriculum.

For example: a cc approach to creating crafts, exploring outside, etc.
I think that our programs are already very much like this, but I'm curious to see if anyone else has ideas about how to do this.


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## LAHP100

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brooklyn lisa*
My most immediate thought/question has to do with wearing baby and my own activity/movement, or lack there of. Especially as it concerns helping my dd "burn off" some of her own energy stores.

I'm new to CC myself, but I came across this section on Liedloff's website the other day and it really jumped out at me:

"The second essential function of the in-arms experience appears to have escaped the notice of everyone (including me, until the mid-1960s). It is to provide babies with a means of discharging their excess energy until they are able to do so themselves. In the months before being able to get around under their own power, babies accumulate energy from the absorption of food and sunshine. A baby therefore needs constant contact with the energy field of an active person, who can discharge the unused excess for each of them. This explains why the Yequana babies were so strangely relaxed - why they did not stiffen, kick, arch, or flex to relieve themselves of an uncomfortable accumulation of energy.

"To provide the optimum in-arms experience, we have to discharge our own energy efficiently. One can very quickly calm a fussing baby by running or jumping with the child, or by dancing or doing whatever eliminates one's own energy excess. A mother or father who must suddenly go out to get something need not say, "Here, you hold the baby. I'm going to run down to the shop." The one doing the running can take the baby along for the ride. The more action, the better!

"Babies - and adults - experience tension when the circulation of energy in their muscles is impeded. A baby seething with undischarged energy is asking for action: a leaping gallop around the living room or a swing from the child's hands or feet. The baby's energy field will immediately take advantage of an adult's discharging one. Babies are not the fragile things we have been handling with kid gloves. In fact, a baby treated as fragile at this formative stage can be persuaded that he or she is fragile."

I know how you feel, because I used to work about stimulating DS "enough" when he was very tiny. I wish I had known about this forum then!

HTH!


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## UrbanSimplicity

Yes, LAPH100, thats the exact part of the concept Ihad in mind when I posted....since I know I'm just not as active as a Yequana woman wearing her baby! I see from reading here that some mamas are able to be super active with babe in sling, but I dont think I'm alone in having to sit at desk, etc.
Like now--babe is restless-gotta go.

Oh, btw--didnt mean to imply I work 100% of my day! (i work like 10% of it, and during that time the above describes the breakdown of activity!)


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## Mommy Piadosa

just now finding this tribe and reading the book- it fits so much with the stuff i did instinctually, esp with the last two after I discovered Dr Sears and knew that other people followed their instincts as well.
any ideas how cc concepts can be applied to older kids? I'm still working my way through the book so maybe its covered, but i thought i'd ask here anyway.


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## corwinegall

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Madre Piadosa*
just now finding this tribe and reading the book- it fits so much with the stuff i did instinctually, esp with the last two after I discovered Dr Sears and knew that other people followed their instincts as well.
any ideas how cc concepts can be applied to older kids? I'm still working my way through the book so maybe its covered, but i thought i'd ask here anyway.

Older kids - I didn't read it until ds was 8 and dd was just born. CC totally flows with my parenting style, (it wasn't a 'new' concept to me either, TCC just put a name to it and reinforced my belief to stick to my instincts) But as ds got older I started to panic, this world is so crazy and he's exposed to so much that could get way out of control (video games, high fructose corn syryp...) I found myself micromanaging him. I needed the reminder that he needs to be involved in our household activities, I need to TRUST him and trust him to learn from his own mistakes, not to harp on him too much







...


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## pinkmilk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *corwinegall*
Older kids - I didn't read it until ds was 8 and dd was just born. CC totally flows with my parenting style, (it wasn't a 'new' concept to me either, TCC just put a name to it and reinforced my belief to stick to my instincts) But as ds got older I started to panic, this world is so crazy and he's exposed to so much that could get way out of control (video games, high fructose corn syryp...) I found myself micromanaging him. I needed the reminder that he needs to be involved in our household activities, I need to TRUST him and trust him to learn from his own mistakes, not to harp on him too much







...

i must admit...we are stricter with our older boys in these areas too. i have yet to find a ballance.

for example...watching movies...playing video games...hanging with friends.
where do you draw the line or do you??
if the family is most important(which i think it is) then how do we set up rules concerning outside influences?
Church is another one. There is great community/tribe potential but it's hard to get the boys to want to go. WWYD??What would the cc way be?make your kids go cuz that's where your tribe is or let them stay home therefor splitting the family and growing apart or everyone stay home?Again wwyd?


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## zansmama

I would definitely NOT make my kids go to church if they didn't want to... but I'll bet that if they have a lot of friends and activities, they will want to. I was raised to believe that going to church is not essential to being a Christian, but rather faith and good works. However, I am a pagan/deist now, so take my advice with a grain of salt.









As far as the kids getting older, I've really been influenced by the idea of not forcing my will on ds, but rather persuading him (unless it's a situation of danger to himself or others). Do you remember the 9-year-old that went on a journey(of many years, I think) with the author? His parents asked if he wanted to go, and he said yes, so they let him. And when all the adults of the tribe turned back, he still wanted to go, so no one forced him to return with them. This is a principle that I am trying to follow.
Ds is only 3 right now, so we'll see if it continues to work, but right now he is very pleasant and responsible for his age, and fairly easily persuaded. Sometimes, I make deals with him, as in I'll do thus and such for you if you do this for me. Even if it's only about washing his hands, it's treating him as an equal, and with respect, and he responds in kind. Most of the time. Of course, he's still only three, so sometimes he just breaks down and wants to nurse, or completely rebels and runs outside. Unless I've got some type of time constraint, I try to respect that response too. I often ask myself the question, "what would i say to an adult who behaved this way?" Usually, I find that I would have a lot more empathy for an adult.


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## Mommy Piadosa

Quote:

make your kids go cuz that's where your tribe is or let them stay home therefor splitting the family and growing apart or everyone stay home?Again wwyd?
i was thinking of this as more along the lines of expected sociality. its not a matter of "making" them go, but a matter of "this is what we do" and they follow. not sure how this works practically with bigger kids- like I said i'm new to the book, not the concepts- so i may be misinterpreting expected sociality.


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## PrincessDoll

I am a Christian and I do practice CC as far as it doesn't interfere with my Biblical beliefs. For me,the principles of the Bible are my first parenting tool....TCC is just a supplement to what I get from God's word. Church is too important for my family to allow my child the "choice *not* to go". That is just one area where I wouldn't just go with the flow.

Now I'd definitely include my dc in the decision making process. For example, what we do after church, if he wants to stay with me or go to Sunday school, etc. Also, I would take one Sunday off a month and allow my dc to choose the type of Spiritual activity we could do instead to honor God on that day. That way I could give my dc some sense of freedom and choice in the matter AND teach him that church isn't necessarily the building but the people and the Bible.


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## henhao

I wouldn't force a child to go to church. He can have a relationship with a deity without church. Of course, this can all be debated.

My mother never forced me to go to church, and I went all the time.







If she had tried to force me, I would not have wanted to go. The temperment of every child is different.

This discussion of church and TCC reminds me of the story in TCC where a man showed up and didn't want to do any work. The Yequana let him be. Eventually the man got bored and thought he'd make a little garden. He did a little bit. Then he discovered that he liked it and he started to work as hard as everyone else. The Yequana didn't make him feel guilty or bad that he wasn't working at first. Instead, they let him be and the man came around to work on his own.

I'm not sure how exactly that would work with church. I've always appreciated that my religious friends live their lives and SHOW me how great religion is that way rather than TELL me. Does that make sense?


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## PrincessDoll

Quote:

I'm not sure how exactly that would work with church. I've always appreciated that my religious friends live their lives and SHOW me how great religion is that way rather than TELL me. Does that make sense?
That completely makes sense. I also believe in the power of demonstrating my faith to my dc through my life and actions. However, that doesn't negate the fact that God has commanded us (Christians) to be in fellowship with one another. To not do so would be disobedient to God's word and I love my dc too much to allow him to disobey the Word of God. This is an area where compromise would have to be employed rather than "giving him the option of not going and hoping that without the pressure, he will choose to go" imho.


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## EnviroBecca

Another way you can engage with a baby is by reading aloud in an expressive voice whatever you want to read. EnviroBaby particularly enjoys when I read something I disagree with and deliver ranting asides!







As an infant, he particularly liked me to read from a newspaper spread open on the table while I held him on my hip and swayed or wiggled.

Church: I've been taking EnviroBaby since he was 2 weeks old, so he's very accustomed to the idea that We Do This. A friend of mine just joined my church after about 5 years of not belonging to a church, so her kids (4, 7, and 9) are not used to church and sometimes very bored by it. She could leave them at home w/their dad who doesn't come to church, but instead she requires them to come and gives them a choice of attending the service, attending Sunday school, or reading quietly in the parish hall. The interesting thing is that, although they're technically unsupervised if in the parish hall and although they have serious sibling rivalry problems most of the time, they always behave well in there and don't fight. When the person in charge of that day's coffee hour comes in after communion to set up the food, the kids are eager to help. They like socializing with both kids and adults during the coffee hour, so they're getting something out of church even if the rituals don't mean much to them.


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca*

Church: I've been taking EnviroBaby since he was 2 weeks old, so he's very accustomed to the idea that We Do This.

Yeah, there was never really a question in my family when I was growing up... i don't think I ever imagined NOT going to church with the rest of the family.


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## mommaof3

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brooklyn lisa*
My most immediate thought/question has to do with wearing baby and my own activity/movement, or lack there of. Especially as it concerns helping my dd "burn off" some of her own energy stores.

I live in nyc, have no backyard. I also work at home which is about 40% computer, 40% jewelry making, 20% moving around, filling and packing orders, errands, etc.

For those of you who are not able to be outside as much... working in gardens (sigh).... or who don't move so much around the house (i have a one room loft, not a whole house with stairs and toddlers to chase after!







) do your dc's get restless in their slings? my dd needs to be on the go in her sling, unless she is sleeping.

I guess I'm just looking for some comments regarding the CC and our more sedantary lifestyle. Don't get me wrong--I take my dd for a walk everyday, but I know i just cant provide the amount of movement our babies have evolved to expect!


YES, lots of WAHMs have this problem and one solution I have heard is to get one of those big exercise/birth balls and use it as your computer chair, that way you can bounce and move while you're on the computer. Also, save the sedentary work for more when she's sleeping, and when she's awake do dishes, laundry and other active housework. (I used to wait to do the dishes until after the baby was asleep, and spend my time when baby was awake trying to entertain him somehow! Silly!).


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## mommaof3

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Madre Piadosa*
any ideas how cc concepts can be applied to older kids? I'm still working my way through the book so maybe its covered, but i thought i'd ask here anyway.


So many people who practice AP seem to revert to mainstream parenting after their child reaches about 4-5 years old (I call this age the "terrible twos" of attachment parenting), because it's pretty straightforward to be attached to and meet the needs of a baby or toddler...but, things get harder, and the stronger current pulls you (and in fact it's CC-correct to be mainstream- the whole idea of "doing what's done in your culture").

Anyway, I think there IS a way to practice CC/AP up until adulthood and beyond, and these are some of the principles of "cc'ing" an older child:

1.) respectful communication - something like NVC, or other positive parenting resources and practice peaceful conflict resolution skills - no punishments or rewards, etc.
http://www.parentleaders.org/articles.html
http://www.empathic-discipline.com
http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/ptarticles.htm
http://cnvc.org/
http://www.naomialdort.com/
http://www.awareparenting.com/
http://www.naturalchild.org/home/
and more, just ask if that's not enough!









2.) meaningful work- alongside parents and/or friends -this has been hard for us, and we've always thought that living on a farm would be ideal...or a family business -this summer we will work together selling natural popsicles at the park. We try to have "work days" with friends/tribe on weekends. Have always expected (and therefore recieved) help with house chores/shopping, etc. we have never had to encourage or manipulate kids into helping with family work, they naturally want to contribute.

3.) non-coercive (if any) educational environment and very few toys

4.) friends with people of all ages- newborn up to elderly - having a "tribe" - other parents that your children know and trust, other parents who want to parent like you do, so a subculture can be created

5.) respectful limit setting (acknowledging feelings and being kind and empathic while holding your limit)

6.) valuing your connection/relationship with your children above all else (i.e what others might think)

7.) confidence that humans are social, cooperative creatures by nature

Another thing I have learned recently is that you just have to have a little more patience with this kind of parenting...the older children I have met who have been homeschooled and/or respectfully parented are really neat people, and it speaks volumes to me, reminding me to just hold on through the "young" years that are so physically and emotionally demanding. For instance, my half-brother is now 19 years old, and he was a VERY spirited homeschooled child, I took care of him for a week when he was 7 and I almost didn't make it, he was so sensitive and rigid and argumentative and pouty and needy, and he was 10 times worse w/his mom than w/me! I thought he could use some more limits, but I guess I was wrong- he became this awesome teenager, he's self-motivated and independent and loving and kind and funny, and has a great relationship w/his mother...everything one would want for their child. The teenage kids I met at the unschooling conference were amazing, my friend Heidi's 6 unschooled CC adult children are great, the staff at the village free school (many of whom were raised this way) are exceptional humans...so, I think you just have to wait a while, they will all see how great our kids are, eventually. I think that this way of parenting just looks a little messy in the beginning.


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## pinkmilk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommaof3*
So many people who practice AP seem to revert to mainstream parenting after their child reaches about 4-5 years old (I call this age the "terrible twos" of attachment parenting), because it's pretty straightforward to be attached to and meet the needs of a baby or toddler...but, things get harder, and the stronger current pulls you (and in fact it's CC-correct to be mainstream- the whole idea of "doing what's done in your culture").

Anyway, I think there IS a way to practice CC/AP up until adulthood and beyond, and these are some of the principles of "cc'ing" an older child......
.................................................. ..............................................
I think that this way of parenting just looks a little messy in the beginning.


Wow...keep on talkin' lady cuz I sure am listening!!!! Thankyou for all this!


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## Mommy Piadosa

Wow Emily- thanks- I'll be reading all those links that I haven't read already and rereading your post when I'm later when I can really absorb it. Thanks so much!!!


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## kindergirl77

( Hi Mama P! )

I am amazed by this book. It really it home for me in many areas. I tend to think that the book is reaching a little in that ALL of our problems stem from our lost in-arms experience, but I do agree that it makes sense that we are looking for happiness lost from that missing experience.

It makes me a little sad since my 2 1/2 year old did not get that in-arms experience for the first 12 months until I found Dr. Sears and Mothering. I do see the jealousy in my 2 y.o. since my new baby (3 mo.) is in-arms constantly. I am trying to 'right' her experience by trying to parent her gently and co-sleeping. I'm hoping that I can right that first year with her. I'm constantly wondering what else I can do to make it right.


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## jrose_lee

Can you please tell me what y'all think of the book "Playful Parenting" if you've read it? It is highly reccomended a lot at MDC. I was reading it at the same time as CC and now I don't know what to think. Is playful parenting still a good thing?


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## Season1

HI all,

I'm pretty new to the Mothering.commune and I haven't read all the posts on this thread but wanted to add my two cents. We were sent the CC by a distant acquaintance during our first pregnancy and I'm extremely grateful for that! A lot of it resonated with me and we did the baby holding thing pretty religiously. It seems to have worked as we are blessed with a truly wonderful and very confident, caring, reasonable etc. 22 month old boy. One thing I wanted to add, for a somewhat more scientific perspective on many of the same arguments, Our Babies Ourselves is a very interesting and informative book. We're now 3.5 months into our second pregnancy and committed to trying to do as much as we can the same way but wondering how that works with the demands of the first needing to be taken care of. We'd welcome input on that.

Thanks all.


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## pinkmilk

I have a pretty easy time giving dd (2 yrs) enough in arms time while still holding baby 24/7. She co-sleeps with us (mostly her and dh), and I usually have a bath with her at night. Whenever baby is sleeping I put him down beside us and i hold her. Right now dh is holding baby and dd is in my arms for a cuddle. Often now we all cuddle and roll around together...dd loves to "hold" the baby and we do this many times a day. She likes it when she lays down and I lay the baby on top of her! Which is quite a site because she is a 19 pound toddler and he's a 17 pound 4 month old!!!

She still likes to know that she can nurse and will "nurse" every few days...mostly she just puts her lips to my nipple but doesn't do anything...then claims "done!"!! I usually lay with her for nap and of course at bedtime.

She still loves the sling too and will like me to wear her when I can.


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## EnviroBecca

Quote:

for a somewhat more scientific perspective on many of the same arguments, Our Babies Ourselves is a very interesting and informative book.








I like that one too. Lots of good cross-cultural examples, not just the Yequana.


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## PrincessDoll

I am actually in the process of reading Our Babies Ourselves. It is a little bit slower paced than I would like but interesting nonetheless.


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## henhao

Some cool things happened in the past week. We went to the lake where there's a beach. Baby wanted to eat all the rocks at first. I selected large ones for her to "find" and let her go to town. She chewed on them and, after that, was pretty much over them.

Today, on the other hand, she's stuck a zip lock bag on her head, wrapped a cord from a pull toy around her neck and is fascinated by an electrical outlet near our bed. Any ideas on why all this all at (seemingly) once?

She just learned to crawl last week so maybe she's celebrating her new mobility?

She is also crawling up stairs. She tends to sit back and then, of course, fall backwards. So we have been letting her feel the fall and breaking the fall for her. What do you think? I think she needs to learn what happens when she sits back and that that isn't what she wants. At the same time, I'm not going to really let her fall three feet onto the hardwood floors.

With the bed, I took the advice of someone here and showed her how this is the bed and that is space. She tried to crawl off and, again, I let her feel the fall (only 6-12 inches onto thick carpet) while giving her some support and see what happened when she got off. Now, I'm working on teaching her to get off the bed feet first. She went front ways this morning and sort of did a face plant with her dad. The bed is so low that it would actually be easier to go front ways so maybe teaching "feet first" is not a good idea.

One of the pps said few toys is the way to go. We don't have a lot of toys. She likes to play with empty water containers, plastic cups and a wok filled with rolly balls. Any other ideas for "real-life" toys?


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## Persephone

So, dd is turning 6 months in about 3 weeks, and she's showing many signs of readiness for solids. What I was planning on doing is sitting her at the table with us, and giving her her own lil plate of food. A couple things: currently, we eat in front of the TV, switching off holding dd. When she's in my lap, I find it really hard to eat, because she's always grabbing at stuff. (And currently, I'm trying not to let her have food!)

I would like to start having family meals again. I"m not sure how to incorporate dd into them. A traditional highchair is definitely out. She can't get down by herself, and she's not at the table with us. I was thinking about getting a high chair that hooks to the table, though. That way, she could eat with us as part of the family. The only thing is, she won't be able to get up and down by herself, she'd have to rely on us. So, there won't be any meals where she just comes and gets what she wants and leaves again... at least not til she outgrows the high chair, and we get her a booster seat.
Of course, if she asks to get down, we'll oblige. I'm not gonna force her to sit in there through the whole meal. Anyway, do you think the hook on highchair is a good idea, from a CC standpoint? Also, from an NFL standpoint, it's another "thing' to buy, but I think that this thing may be worth it.


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## Persephone

Oh, Henhao, I just read your post. My dd is rolling off the bed too. I do what you do, let her feel the fall, and then break her fall for her. OUr bed is high enough though, that feet first is a good way to get down. Dd is 5 months old, is she old enough to understand feet first? I really feel that she doesn't understand such concepts as HOT and feet first yet.

As for toys, dd currently enjoys flatware, and measuring cups. Last night, I made a huge shaker for her out of an old oatmeal container and some barley flakes. She's enjoying that.


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## pinkmilk

Hi Percephone!!!

Some highchairs can pull right up to the table when the tray is off. this is what we plan on doing.

Another thing we do is have a picnic, usually about once a week where we just sit on the floor in a big circle. dd(2) loves this as she can go around and sit with everyone in her family and eat off their plates! babies love this too as it often is the only opportunity they get to grab food off others plates.


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## mamacatsbaby

subbing...


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## mollyeilis

Ikea has a simple, cheap, plastic highchair without a tray. It is easily brought right to the table. And it's cheap.


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## henhao

DD has sat with us at the table since she was 3 months old. At first, she'd be in someone's lap. At around 6 months, she was really interested in food and was ready for solids so we got her a booster seat with its own tray. I guess she doesn't eat right at the table with us (becasue of the booster seat) and I'd not thought about it not being CC, because she still eats at the same time as us and she mostly feeds herself. For my own sanity, I'll probably continue to let her use her own tray because it's so much easier to clean it and if I don't remove every speck of food from the floor, tray and table, we get ants. And I don't want to use poison to get rid of the ants...so I do the best I can given all the various factors.

The picnic idea seems like a good one. I get good ideas from this thread!


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## Season1

Persephone said:


> I would like to start having family meals again. I"m not sure how to incorporate dd into them. A traditional highchair is definitely out.
> 
> You might try looking at THE BUMBO (I think we got it from One Step Ahead) it's sort of a booster seat but, at least in theory, contains the baby while letting her/him sit up with you. Not sure if it's what you're looking for if you want her to have completely free mobility but it worked for a little while for us. Note, though, that we actually had the opposite problem. It was supposed to keep our ds contained (for meals) but at about 4.5 months, he could already climb out...something worth looking into though...let me know if you have any questions about it...


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## kamesennin

.


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## pinkmilk

i got a Bumbo chair as a gift when ds(5 months) was born. i thought "ewwww...yuk" but i actually like it for gardening and picnics (times when wearing him is hard to do and times when he wants to be involved with the family at a lower or higher level than the stroller or ground will allow.)

i'm trying to decide what i think about the learning tower????thoughts??


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## PrincessDoll

I used the Bumbo with ds and he LOVED it!!! I would just plunk him right down on the kitchen counter while I cooked in the beginning and he was the quietest at that time just watching me cook and the steam come up from the stove, etc... Plus he loved being able to sit up and see things from that level versus always being in supine position (that's lying down right??)

As for the Learning Tower, I want to buy it as soon as we have some extra cash. I think it is a valuable resource for a child to be able to interact with me at dinnertime in regards to cooking, etc. Plus he can use it to stand at the sink level to brush his teeth and wash his face. Then it can be used as a "puppet theatre" or some other imaginative thing later on. The cheapest I found it is for $110 on ebay. Does anyone know where I can maybe get a used one?


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## BarbieSmith

Don't have a lot of time, but just wanted to bump because I think I have FOUND MY TRIBE! No one I speak to (in my circles) has heard of CC, and I am amazed. This book has had such an impact on me, and I am thrilled to have found others that feel the same!

Anyway, I hope to catch up with the posts in this thread in the next day or so


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## pinkmilk

OK....I need your thoughts on these topics as it relates to cc.

nakedness. dd(2 and a bit) has to take her clothes off when she's outside. I love the fact that she is so free but I also buy into the worry about sickkos looking at her body. I try to gently persuade her to keep her clothes on...sometimes she does...most times she doesn't. We hang out in our front yard alot.. so everyone and thier dog can see her running free. But we do live in a small town so it's not like theirs alot of traffic.

anyway, gotta go now...i'll write more later!!!


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## mollyeilis

For some reason, the idea of what people do in their little brains doesn't bother me, so for that reason nudity doesn't bother me with a little one.

However, do you know all your neighbors? Do they all like you? In this country, day, and age, I would be worried about someone being shocked or angry with me or whatever, and calling some sort of authority about it. That concerns me more than what some perv is thinking.

Also, I was a naked-toddler myself, and once while watering the garden while naked I tripped and jammed a piece of wood from a stake between my toes (ouch ouch ouch, still don't know what hurt worse; that or the needle with anesthetic between my toes to take it out) AND that same stake ALMOST hit my littlegirl bits and pieces. If I had been just an inch over, it might have caused a really gross injury. So for that reason, naked running around outside worries me a bit, but if it's just lawn and no gardening stakes, then that's better.


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## EnviroBecca

We have a traditional-style wooden highchair. It's true that EnviroBaby can't get into or out of it by himself, but we respond to his cues and don't make him stay in it if he's done. In addition to eating there, he sits in it to watch us cook and kneels on it to help wash dishes.

My opinion on nudity is that it's not something we do in public. It's fine in the house or in a sheltered yard when the only people present are family and close friends, or in a public locker-room or similar situation, but we do not walk out the front door naked or take off our clothes on the sidewalk. We model this for EnviroBaby and discourage him if he wants to disrobe inappropriately. It's just another part of living in our culture.


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## pinkmilk

to Mollyeilis....funny you should ask if all my neibours like me!!! No!! they have been plotting against me since they seen me go to the open house when we were looking ...they were over here trying to talk the previous owners into not selling to me because i have pink hair!!!







And dh has both his ears pierced so he must be wild!

i just live peacefully though so i don't let it bother me but your point is very valid...i just know that everyone else in town just absolutely adores me so if they ever did complain i'd have a whole town of people to back me up.

mostly i just wanted a cc idea on public nudity not personal opinions...kwim?
also what is the cc approach to "making" children keep their clothing on?
I know when we go to a public pool this week it will be a huge issue! i hate to make her...if only i could get her to at least keep her bottoms on!!!


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## mollyeilis

Well, I answered the way I answered because I can't imagine there really IS a CC thought on it. I mean, how could there be, right? If we were all living closely with relatives and such, working to get by all day with our kids roaming around helping when wanted not helping when wanted...there's no worry of CPS, yes? But that's not the way our world is, sad to say.

It's also why I mention the non-opinion story of what happened while I was naked...it was a living in the jungle moment as I gardened naked, and it had a rather negative physical impact on me, as well as the emotional memory of fear that I'd impaled myself... The rest of the time I was still happily naked for several years, but I never went near the garden while naked again.


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## pinkmilk

so true. sorry that happened to you







and sorry if you thought i wasn't interested in your story...i am very interested in your stories and everything you have ever have to say! i just want to stay focused on tcc. it's all relevant though.

dd has been putting things there too! like small craft supplies...stickers...and likes to tatoo her body(marker,pen..) and so being naked just gives her more canvas space.







Sometimes i just don't know what to do...in all my years of having boys they have never colored their penis and wanted to show everyone their "tatoos"!







sometimes its difficult to allow her the freedom to do the things she wants to do, explore the things she needs to explore and follow the laws of society at the same time.


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## Ellien C

I live in suburban america and I have no problem with my 3 yo being naked around the neighborhood, front yard, etc. In fact, the preferred way for her to enter the neighborhood kiddie pools and front lawn sprinklers is naked. We use swim suits at the public pool as that is the "done thing." I don't really worry about the sickos who I figure would be looking at her anyway.

At 3 she shows some signs of awareness of her nudity. She wet her pants at a dance function one evening and I went to change her into dry underwear that I had brought and she asked to do that in the bathroom. I went to put her PJs on after a wedding on Friday and again, she asked for a more private space. But around the neighborhood, nakedness seems to be the done thing. I think she'll grow into neighborhood inhibitions as well in good time. I'm not in a rush for her to be clothed all the time outdoors.


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## zansmama

Ds has never really cared about clothes_ on or off. But I kept his clothes off a lot between ~18 months and 2 1/2 for potty learning purposes, and wow, did that go well.







I really want him to feel comfortable in his own skin, so to speak.
Out of the house... well until recently, he's always gone naked at the lake (some boys made fun of him, and I don't want my principles to have a negative effect on his interactions with other people), and at a local playground with a water play area, a lot of the kids strip as soon as they get there, so ds of course joins in. Some of the parents are offended, but first of all, this park has been this way since I was a kid, and secondly, I think a healthy attitude toward the human body is one that sees it as beautiful, not "dirty", esp when we're talking about a gang of 3 year olds.

Anyway, tcc view on this, I think, would be based, first of all, on the kid's own desire, and second on the community. I.e., my ds, who doesn't care at all, would wear clothes most of the time, because it's the norm in our society, but another dc, who didn't want clothes, would not be forced to. Usually in a situation where ds's desires do not coincide with our society, if it's very important (diaper changing, for instance), or like wearing clothes at the grocery store, or something, I would make a deal with him: "you do this for me, and in exchange I'll do something for you". In this way his dignity is intact, and he is still choosing the action to take, not being forced.

i don't know if this makes sense, but it's my two cents...


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## Mara's Mama

An acquaintence of mine is having her first baby and I wanted to gift her with a book to read while she is pregnant. A wonderful woman loaned me her copy of TCC while I was pregnant and I am very grateful to her for this. However, I was already receptive to (and seeking) the concepts in the book, so I didn't mind the length and depth of the book. I am unsure that my acquaintence (actually a client) is receptive per se, but I know she is doing a lot of soul searching and I wanted to make sure she had some AP/CC material handy.

Does anyone have a "TCC Light" type book to recommend?

Thanks and hope you're all staying cool - Jamie


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## zansmama

Dr Sears' books are pretty cool, though not strictly cc.

i really love the book "Nature's Children" by Juliette de Bairacli-Levy, and i really wish someone had given it to me when i was pregnant: I didn't it discover it until a year later. It has a lot of CC type concepts, along with lots of very simple herbal remedies, and some recipes and natural advice.


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## kindergirl77

I'm reading a great great book called "Natural Child" by JAN HUNT. Its wonderful and the forward was written by our very own Peggy Omara, so its definetely 'mothering' approved!

When I first picked up TCC I had to get out my dictionary and it took all my concentration to understand her writing style. But maybe I'm just







: but I thought it was a challenging read.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mara's Mama*
An acquaintence of mine is having her first baby and I wanted to gift her with a book to read while she is pregnant. A wonderful woman loaned me her copy of TCC while I was pregnant and I am very grateful to her for this. However, I was already receptive to (and seeking) the concepts in the book, so I didn't mind the length and depth of the book. I am unsure that my acquaintence (actually a client) is receptive per se, but I know she is doing a lot of soul searching and I wanted to make sure she had some AP/CC material handy.

Does anyone have a "TCC Light" type book to recommend?

Thanks and hope you're all staying cool - Jamie


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## mommaof3

Give her Our Babies, Ourselves by Meredith Small, it's the modern and more scientific version of TCC...


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## pitchfork

I just found this thread and am so glad to see it! I just finished re-reading TCC, after reading it about 10 years ago. I always knew I wanted to be a cc'er, it felt totally right to me, and have held DS constantly, but he is 6mos now, and rolling all over the place - aproaching the age where I will have to decide whether/how much to babyproof, etc.

I had the excellent fortune to live with a friend and cc'er when her kids were little, (they are now independent, sensitive, intellegent wonderful teenagers) and she modeled not freaking out about "danger", so I was prepared to be a relaxed mom, and then we had a near-death experience with my ds, home birth, then 911 call at 5 hours old, and a week in ICU. I was reading back around page 27 of this thread about some of the grief around early separation - I barely got to hold DS until day 4. I just now am starting not to have constant panic that he will die - so my laid back, let them learn for themselves thing will be hard for me. Its great to hear how other folks are dealing with this. Esp the safety thing. Amazing how that is so much harder than the in arms part- which I love, aching back and all.


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## rmzbm

Oh, wow - never noticed this tribe! Replying to sub!


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## KeanusMomma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaAllNatural*
I felt that she based every thing on this one small tribe so some of her "arguments" were a bit weak in that respect.

ITA! I was just talking to my friend about this yesterday. Most books I read have facts, then logic, then testimonials. This book has testimonials from one small, isolated culture, then logic, and a couple facts. I'm not saying that I disagree with this book, it's just not as powerful as some others, which may seem (to some) to negate the validity of her ideas.


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## super kitty

subbing...


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## pinkmilk

: bumpity bump!!


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## proudmamanow

subbing...


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## henhao

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KeanusMomma*
ITA! I was just talking to my friend about this yesterday. Most books I read have facts, then logic, then testimonials. This book has testimonials from one small, isolated culture, then logic, and a couple facts. I'm not saying that I disagree with this book, it's just not as powerful as some others, which may seem (to some) to negate the validity of her ideas.

What you say is right. At the same time, the ideas in this book are fascinating and compelling. That's probably why so many folks are interested in the subject. For me, I take what works and ditch what doesn't. Would I let my baby play with long swords? Um, no. Did I let her learn to use a cup by herself at 6 mos? Yes. Did I encourage her to "sit" at the table when she wanted to at 3 months? Yes. Do I let her explore her foods by sticking her hand into a jar instead of worrying that she'll get "messy"? Yes.

For me, this book goes beyond the need for "proof" and "science" because doing some of what the book talks about feels "right" to me. My intuition says "yeah!" My intuition says to let her function at the top of her capacities and teach her what is dangerous instead of hiding everything so she never learns. Yes, I'll rid the house of poisonous chemicals we used to use to clean and replace them with vinegar to be safe. But I'm not going to freak out about every elec outlet. I do use gates on the stairs and also sit with her as she explores how to get down the stairs. Same with strangers. Let her interact (under guidance) with strangers so she learns to use her own intuition about who is good and who isn't.

Several times, I've found my family freaking about something I feel calm about. Yes, it looked like she was going to fall off of the couch. ***But she did not.** And I was sitting right next to her if she did. Yes, it looked like she was going to throw food somewhere or hit her head...**but she did not**. She is learning to keep herself safe. She is learning how we act in social events.


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## PrincessDoll

henhao, you pretty much summed it up for me too. I think it is silly to subscribe completely to any one particular theory in general. Like everything else, you take what works for you and your family and gloss over what doesn't.

I have given up on trying to get my MIL to interact with my son in a more cc way and that doesn't bother me at all. She constantly comments on "how brave he is" "why the other toddlers wouldn't even go near the animals but CJ is so brave to be comfortable in the animal pen" or "he is so independent and fearless" etc.... I wanna shout at her, "How do you think he got that way?!?!?! Not from hovering over him like you do!" lol....but I just let it slide and smile politely and say "thank you" because ultimately she is complimenting my parenting style, the very one she refuses to implement.


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## EnviroBecca

Re: the style of the book, I think a lot of people (including, in some passages, the author!) mistake it for a how-to or advice book. It isn't. It's more like, "Here are a bunch of ideas that really blew my mind! I want everyone to think about them, and I hope you'll be as transformed by them as I was."

For those who like the book BECAUSE of that rather than DESPITE it, I have another book to recommend: _In the Country of the Young_ by John W. Aldridge. This is a book about the effects of the Baby Boom and related phenomena on American society, written in 1969. It is packed with amazing insights, particularly from today's perspective because you can see how the trends he outlines have played out. But it is lacking a clear central thesis and does a lot more explaining of what's wrong than instructing us what to do about it.


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## AmyMN

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca*
For those who like the book BECAUSE of that rather than DESPITE it, I have another book to recommend: _In the Country of the Young_ by John W. Aldridge.

Hey, sounds interesting. If you want, post it here too:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...6&goto=newpost


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## WuWei

Hey, I am receiving Scott Noelle's enjoyparenting Daily Grove, which I really like. http://www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove Is there a message board for TCC that he posts on? I love hearing his positive viewpoint.

Thanks, Pat


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## super kitty

*


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *super kitty*
He posts often to the actual TCC list....

http://www.continuum-concept.org/membership.html

Thanks for the link. I registered, but is there a message board or just a search function? I couldn't locate the message board with this link.







(btw, I am not computer savvy and may have totally overlooked it.)

Thanks,

Pat


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## super kitty

*


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## WuWei

btw, I am not computer savvy





































I still can't figure out how to join the list.







:

Pat


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## super kitty

*


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *super kitty*
http://www.continuum-concept.org/forum/index.html

Try this link... Not far down there are instructions.










I am hopeless, I did that. (insert pulling hair out of my head icon!!) The address didn't "send" for some unknown reason other than to make me









It is not meant to be.









Pat, thanks anyway


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## super kitty

*


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## AmyMN

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
Hey, I am receiving Scott Noelle's enjoyparenting Daily Grove, which I really like. http://www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove Is there a message board for TCC that he posts on? I love hearing his positive viewpoint.

Thanks, Pat

You like the Daily Groove? Great!







(I love it, and have had over-the-phone coaching by Scott.)


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## Season1

Greetings all,

Let me begin by saying that I'm an exhausted, and currently insomniac, mother of an almost 26 month old and I'm 7.5 months pregnant. I'm blessed with a very loving husband who is also an amazing father. I'm writing to ask for advice about 2 things: discipline and sleep.

Our son, Julian, is a truly delightful little boy full of life force. He's very smart and loving. He stops what he's doing many many times a day to tell us how much he loves us and give us hugs and kisses. At the same time, though, he's taken to hitting and kicking and pinching us a lot recently and then saying that he thinks it's funny and a "good idea", a descriptor normally reserved for hugging until this point. We of course tell him its not a good idea and "no" and "stop it" and "that hurts mommy" etc. but he doesn't seem to respond. Just today I started picking him up and putting him in the other room in order to show some kind of consequence. He's received so much love, support and approbation, he just doesn't seem to understand, or perhaps more accurately, respond to "no" Does anybody have any advice on how to handle this, and other discipline problems, in a manner relatively in harmony with the whole cc concept?

As for sleep, we've coslept since birth and there's a lot about it I love...several times recently Julian has awakened, looked at me and said "thank you mommy" - it doesn't get more delicious than that - but, particularly with being 7.5 months pregnant, I'm at the end of my rope. He moves around all night, practically pummeling me and my husband and not allowing us to get very much sleep. Also, I've put him to sleep every night since he was born (Daddy has him during the day while I work) and he's demanding that his night routine both get later and later (he was literally doing laps around the kitchen at 9pm tonight, having fallen asleep at 11 the night before despite going down at 8) How did others make the transition to an independent bed? How did others help their children learn to go to sleep by themselves? How do you a) tire your kids out? b) enforce a bed time? all while staying in the "attached" and "continuum" zone?

Any input would be much appreciated. It's now almost 3am and I have to try to get some sleep.

Blessings,
Season


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## HotMama

The CC list is at http://www.ICORS.org/

I rarely have time to read here, but I do get a lot out of being on the CC list.

Season...I wonder if your little sweety is simply trying to re-connect with you after your day at work? Have you read Hold On to Your Kids? It will give you insight into how important attachment is, and it may help your situation.


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## Zannalyn

I am also absolutely loving the Daily Groove!














Sometimes I don't really get what he's saying, but mostly I do and it is very inspiring, and helps me be the kind of mama I want to be. Thanks for suggesting it!


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## Zannalyn

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HotMama* 
The CC list is at http://www.ICORS.org/

I rarely have time to read here, but I do get a lot out of being on the CC list.



I couldn't find it there...


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## AmyMN

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Season1* 
He stops what he's doing many many times a day to tell us how much he loves us and give us hugs and kisses. At the same time, though, he's taken to hitting and kicking and pinching us a lot recently and then saying that he thinks it's funny and a "good idea", a descriptor normally reserved for hugging until this point. We of course tell him its not a good idea and "no" and "stop it" and "that hurts mommy" etc. but he doesn't seem to respond. Just today I started picking him up and putting him in the other room in order to show some kind of consequence. He's received so much love, support and approbation, he just doesn't seem to understand, or perhaps more accurately, respond to "no" Does anybody have any advice on how to handle this, and other discipline problems, in a manner relatively in harmony with the whole cc concept?

Hi, Season.

I myself don't believe in discipline. I take each moment as it comes. Your son is really young, he isn't going to understand what you are doing by separating him from you. If you give a lot of energy (talk, focus, whatever) to the hitting/kicking, then he assumes there is a lot of power to those actions (because you are giving them power). If you respond in the way you would if a tree branch fell on you, you wouldn't be giving it power most likely. Maybe you'd say, "Wow, that hurt." and then you'd walk inside or whatever. But you wouldn't try to teach the branch the consequences for falling on you. The consequence is you got hurt. The same with your son hitting you, the consequence is that it hurt. And there it ends.

If he hits you a second time, then think about changing the energy of the room. Put on some music (or change the music, or turn off the music, start drawing, etc.). Do something to center *yourself*. Watch the magic happen when you change what's going on inside of you.

Here's a great article Scott wrote. Read the car seat example: http://www.scottnoelle.com/parenting/unconditional.htm

Sign up for the Daily Groove; it really helps.

More later.


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## AngelBee

I don't get not disciplining at all.









Amy..can you explain it further?








:


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## AmyMN

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngelBee* 
I don't get not disciplining at all.









Amy..can you explain it further?







:

Sure. An easy way would be this: Does your dh discipline you if you do something he doesn't like?

P.S. How are you feeling? How are things w/ Marla?


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## HotMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Zannalyn* 
I couldn't find it there...

Try e-mailing Barbara at [email protected]


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## rzberrymom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyMN* 
Sure. An easy way would be this: Does your dh discipline you if you do something he doesn't like?

I have to admit I'm kind of confused too. I think my DH would definitely do something if I hit him. There would be some consequences.


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## HotMama

I suggest reading Hold On to Your Kids to get closer to grokking what Amy is saying. Children want (really need) to have the approval of their primary caregivers...it ensures their survival. If your connection is strong, less "discipline" to think up. When my daughter is in "defiance" mode, if I stop and take some time to re-establish our connection, then I have my kind, loving helpful daughter back. If I go into the mode I grew up with and start thinking she deserves X because she's not doing Y, well, then it just escalates and we're both frustrated, and we still have to deal getting re-connected. Last night we had a wrestling giggle fest to re-connect.


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## rzberrymom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HotMama* 
I suggest reading Hold On to Your Kids to get closer to grokking what Amy is saying. Children want (really need) to have the approval of their primary caregivers...it ensures their survival. If your connection is strong, less "discipline" to think up. When my daughter is in "defiance" mode, if I stop and take some time to re-establish our connection, then I have my kind, loving helpful daughter back. If I go into the mode I grew up with and start thinking she deserves X because she's not doing Y, well, then it just escalates and we're both frustrated, and we still have to deal getting re-connected. Last night we had a wrestling giggle fest to re-connect.









I completely agree with you on needing the approval and the chance to reconnect. Putting it this way seems to make more sense to me than pretending the incident didn't happen, as if a tree branch had fallen on me.

I usually treat DD as I would an adult and let her know that she hurt me. I speak to her just as if another adult had hurt me--calmly and without anger, never babying her. The fact that the behavior is developmentally appropriate doesn't negate the fact that it hurt me, and I think she deserves to know that. I've never given her the sense that my approval is gone, but rather that we have a social contract, just as a tribe would.

I'll look out for that book!


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## AmyMN

Hotmama, Thanks. I know I'm not the only one out there that doesn't use discipline.









rzberrymom, In my statement, I assumed you wouldn't *hit* your dh because you're not 2 (or 4 or 6...) years old. I said, "Do something he didn't like."

I didn't say, "pretend it never happened" either. What we're talking about is a whole different level of thinking, a different energy--stepping out of mainstream cultural mindset. It takes some work, especially if you still believe children need to be disciplined.

You don't have to use my exact example, rzberrymom (or anyone else). Put yourself in that _mindset_ as if a treebrach fell on you.

Please work with me here. LOL I don't want to reinvent the wheel. We've all read TCC, right? You get Scott Noelle's Daily Groove messages right? You've read his articles, and Jan Hunt's and all of them, right? _Hold On To Your Kids_, _Your Competent Child_, Alfie Kohn, John Holt...







:


----------



## rzberrymom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyMN* 
Hotmama, Thanks. I know I'm not the only one out there that doesn't use discipline.









rzberrymom, In my statement, I assumed you wouldn't *hit* your dh because you're not 2 (or 4 or 6...) years old. I said, "Do something he didn't like."

I didn't say, "pretend it never happened" either. What we're talking about is a whole different level of thinking, a different energy--stepping out of mainstream cultural mindset. It takes some work, especially if you still believe children need to be disciplined.

You don't have to use my exact example, rzberrymom (or anyone else). Put yourself in that _mindset_ as if a treebrach fell on you.

Please work with me here. LOL I don't want to reinvent the wheel. We've all read TCC, right? You get Scott Noelle's Daily Groove messages right? You've read his articles, and Jan Hunt's and all of them, right? _Hold On To Your Kids_, _Your Competent Child_, Alfie Kohn, John Holt...







:

Wow! I just said I didn't quite get it, gave an example of what I didn't get, and then said I'd check out the book. I would never address my kiddo or other folks the way your post is written. Now I'm the one who's







:


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## AngelBee

I seriously feel like I am being torn 15 different ways regarding my beliefs on parenting...especially discipline.









I think I have to think about is more and do some praying.








Thank you Amy for explaining and giving me somemore to think about.









PS We DO NOT spank.....just trying to figure out the rest really. I totally am into preventative as opposed to discipline but have found areas where that is tough. (ds1 and dd1 fighting, repeating myself, kids not doing what they were asked...to name a couple)

PSS I am starting to feel tired...like this pregnancy is really winding down. Things are great with Marla. She is very hands off and supports whatever amount of involvement "I" want at the time which is great!









Back to topic: I think the mindset change is what is difficult for me. I am struggling a bit with birth right now as well......like it seems surreal that I am having my baby at home. I trust my body and the process, but it just seems to.......well....like it is a dream. If that makes sense.









I read alot, come up with great stuff, but am having ALOT of difficultly creating a reality based on that info. Maybe my subconcious beliefs haven't changed yet.









It is really hard.....especially when you are the only one in real daily life who is trying to find a better way.....the way of your roots.....what you believe God has called you to be. Everyone around me pretends to be comfortable. Things do not change for them. "It is what it is now leave it alone" kind of mantality.


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## pinkmilk

AngelBee..







and tones of







I wish you the best for your homebirth.

You are speeking my language when you talk of doing what God intends for you. I feel the same way in real life. It feels surreal too. (and I'm not pregers like you).

I've been enjoying lurking this thread because of all the intelligent thoughtful responses.

And it's good to have differing opinions and opinions we sometimes "don't get"... that's how we grow..right?!!

I like the idea of a different mindset. I find I've been butting heads with dd lately and the different mindset idea is a good idea for me. I am totally going for that!! Soon as she's up from her nap this computer is going off and my mind will be in a new place!

peace!


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
I have to admit I'm kind of confused too. I think my DH would definitely do something if I hit him. There would be some consequences.

Yes, but he wouldn't tell you to go sit in a corner, or take a time out. Adults don't deal with things in this way. He might: get pissed and yell (something like: what the hell?), he might aks you why you're upset, he might playfully hit you back... etc. He wouldn't "discipline" you.
I often stop and ask myself when I have a conflict with ds, what would I do if he was an adult? It removes the element of power from the situation. Humor is sometimes the best: it definitely diffuses tension if you burst out laughing. But maybe he's seriously upset. Then (like with an adult) laughing would be innapropriate. Somthing like, "why did you hit me? that really hurt!" in a shocked and surprised tone of voice, just like you might say to anyone else. Ds usually responds pretty simply to this kind of thing. Or even a sharp," HEY! don't do that!" which gets the point across,(and may be your reaction if some random person walked up and hit you.)

This tends to be super controversial when I bring this up, but hitting back (gently of course) often turns into a friendly wrestling match for us. Little boys do need lots of contact, and sometimes they enjoy roughousing. I think ds sometimes hits as an invitation to start some rough play. (i.e.: I'm bored, let's see what mama does if I do _this_)


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## Season1

Greetings again, all,

Many thanks for the interesting and thoughtful replies. In concept and often in practice, I completely agree with the "different mindset" and "changing the energy in the room" strategies. I find these relatively instinctive when/if I'm in a moment when I can devote my full attention and energy to my son. Sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. I guess what troubles me most is not so much the hitting itself but his articulation that "that's a good idea" afterward. Somehow that signals a level of intentionality and thought to me that I find troubling. If, however, I'm trying to cook or do something else, however, that's when it gets much harder to use these tools. Praying is indeed a good idea. And to the poster who asked about whether he's trying to reconnect after my time at work, perhaps, except that he does it to Daddy too and because I'm blessed to work from home, I get to see him a lot throughout the day...

Thank you very much also for the book recommendations. I actually had not heard of either of the books mentioned - Competent Child and Hold on to Your Child - and will look forward to reading them. Also, thanks to whoever it was that posted about the Daily Groove. I've subscribed and am definitely enjoying it. In a similar, though not explicity parenting vein, I'd like to offer
http://www.mayyoubeblessedmovie.com and, in particular, the daily blessings Kate Nowak sends out. Sometimes they're profound and truly meaningful to me, other times they're a bit fluffy but they, along with Scott Noelle's messages help start my day.

And with that, blessings to all; I have to go make dinner!


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## rzberrymom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama* 
Yes, but he wouldn't tell you to go sit in a corner, or take a time out. Adults don't deal with things in this way. He might: get pissed and yell (something like: what the hell?), he might aks you why you're upset, he might playfully hit you back... etc. He wouldn't "discipline" you.

I totally agree with you. When I posted, I just meant to point out that he wouldn't ignore what had happened or walk inside and put on some music. Seems that was cleared up, and that we all agree here.


----------



## AngelBee

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pinkmilk* 
AngelBee..







and tones of







I wish you the best for your homebirth.

You are speeking my language when you talk of doing what God intends for you. I feel the same way in real life. It feels surreal too. (and I'm not pregers like you).

I've been enjoying lurking this thread because of all the intelligent thoughtful responses.

And it's good to have differing opinions and opinions we sometimes "don't get"... that's how we grow..right?!!

I like the idea of a different mindset. I find I've been butting heads with dd lately and the different mindset idea is a good idea for me. I am totally going for that!! Soon as she's up from her nap this computer is going off and my mind will be in a new place!

peace!

Thank you


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## flowers

I want to respond to this idea of not "disciplining" a child. This word is very loaded in our Western culture and we need to be able to differentiate the difference between the meaning the word has accumulated over the past generations and the positive attributes of the idea behind the word. I do not want to throw all discipline out the window b/c discipline is what helps me eat healthy foods when placed in front of a buffet of tempting treats. Discipline is what helps me be a cc parent when I am overtired and frustrated with my child. Discipline helps sharpen my mind, body and will into the being I strive to be and I want my child to learn discipline. However, I do not discipline my child by American standards. Maybe we should change what we are referencing to as "punishing"?


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## AmyMN

flowers: I would be interested to read what people from the Consensual Living say regarding your post. I saw you just posted on their thread (I am subscribed to it). Do you want to post it on that thread too?

As far as discipline goes, I don't think it's discipline that made my dd bored of eating from her huge bucket of Halloween candy. I tried something new this year and just let her have full access to it. Today she hasn't even mentioned candy nor had any (and I'm impartial to the issue, I'm watching and learning from her about self-regulation!).

Maybe it's our society that has us thinking unless we are disciplined (by ourselves or others), we won't self-regulate naturally. As Scott Noelle talks about, I think it's an issue of fearing scarcity.


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## kindergirl77

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flowers* 
I want to respond to this idea of not "disciplining" a child. This word is very loaded in our Western culture and we need to be able to differentiate the difference between the meaning the word has accumulated over the past generations and the positive attributes of the idea behind the word. I do not want to throw all discipline out the window b/c discipline is what helps me eat healthy foods when placed in front of a buffy of tempting treats. Discipline is what helps me be a cc parent when I am overtired and frustrated with my child. Discipline helps sharpen my mind, body and will into the being I strive to be and I want my child to be disciplined. However, I do not discipline my child by American standards. Maybe we should change what we are referencing to as "punishing"?

As a Christian, in the bible it says I am called to 'discipline' my child. But I always read that as 'to disciple' meaning 'to teach'. We are called to teach our children (although many Christians unfortunately read those verses as whip their behinds) and to keep them safe. There have to be some boundries.


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## flowers

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyMN* 
flowers: I would be interested to read what people from the Consensual Living say regarding your post. I saw you just posted on their thread (I am subscribed to it). Do you want to post it on that thread too?

As far as discipline goes, I don't think it's discipline that made my dd bored of eating from her huge bucket of Halloween candy. I tried something new this year and just let her have full access to it. Today she hasn't even mentioned candy nor had any (and I'm impartial to the issue, I'm watching and learning from her about self-regulation!).

Maybe it's our society that has us thinking unless we are disciplined (by ourselves or others), we won't self-regulate naturally. As Scott Noelle talks about, I think it's an issue of fearing scarcity.

AmyMN, It makes sense what you say and I appreciate the balance your ideas bring to my experience. I do believe that the body will self-regulate on instinct. We live in a time where technology is moving faster than we are evolving. On the most basic level my ds is an animal who's main focus is breath, water, food and shelter. He is being subjected to strong and constant stimuli that humans have just begun to adjust to. For a long time lifestyles, diets, climates, etc. have not changed much from generation to generation. In my lifetime the way we interact with the world has changed many times over as a result of extreme advances in technology.
I think animals self-regulate when they live in a blanced environment. I have seen many of family dogs overweight and unhealthy b/c they had access to an overbundance of food. I am not familiar to Scott Noelle, but maybe this is the phenomenon of fearing scarcity. I can relate to that idea.

This is where my understanding of discipline comes in. We separated from the animal world and have become an oppulent and imbalanced system. This is why I think the idea of self-regulation can be tricky. We need to be able to consciously control some aspects of our lives in order to be healthy and thrive in this current global situation. Our children (and ourselves) are being lured into habits of destrution (fast food, cigarettes) for the sake of big business. Maybe it is different for other people, but there have definitely been times in my life where certain aspects of my life were imbalanced and adversely affecting my whole being and I use the word "discipline" to describe how I self-balanced my life situation. For me, having a child requires great discipline. We used to live a very vagrant and spontaneous lifestyle and we found that ds needed a continuous place to call home and needed me to commit to follow the cycles of night and day in a continuous pattern. When I pushed my lifestyle on his needs he let us know that he needed something different and we follow his lead. We also communicate to him what we need and try to find that balance. I had to assess the situation and make a decision about how I was going to raise my child. Then I had to make goals and focus my mind on what I had to do to help my family acheive balance. Then I had to follow through...like a spiritual practice..repeating the behaviors I find positive and relevant and changing them based on ds and dh's changing needs. That is discipline to me.

What are other people's definitions of discipline?

I did the same thing with the halloween bucket and I added lots of conversation to the day about how great candy is for a treat. Then I told a story about how when I was little I ate too much candy and I had a bellyache. The five year old girl I babysit in the afternoon was on her fourth peice. She stopped mid-unwrapping the reeses cup, looked up at me and said, "you did?". Then she wanted to know how many is too many and I told her what I thought. She only has eaten a few peices here and there since and my ds who is younger follows her lead.

I love hearing everyone's different ideas and experiences. Sometimes being a parent is so tough and I love learning and shaping my perspective from such a smart and thoughtful group of mamas (and papas!).


----------



## Zannalyn

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama* 
This tends to be super controversial when I bring this up, but hitting back (gently of course) often turns into a friendly wrestling match for us. Little boys do need lots of contact, and sometimes they enjoy roughousing. I think ds sometimes hits as an invitation to start some rough play. (i.e.: I'm bored, let's see what mama does if I do _this_)

Interesting. DS is occasionally hitting me recently, and I am figuring out ways to deal with it. Often I have redirected his hitting to his drum or some other object, saying "We don't hit people or animals". But I like the wrestling idea. I don't think I will "hit back" because I do like the rule about not hitting. But I could find some way to shift it to rough housing... I know from experience as a kid myself and with kids I babysat for that rough housing is great fun and has a wonderful energy... one baby gleefully headed right for me and his siblings while we were rough housing as soon as he could crawl!









Years ago I had a babysitting gig with a 6 yr. old boy who tended to be physically rough and could be very difficult to handle. His mother pointed out to me that they had been living in Italy and it is a much more physical culture and that it would be good if I would hug and wrestle with him, and just have a lot more physical contact. I did and it worked wonders! The boy and I began to really enjoy one another's company. I haven't thought of that in a long time, and your post reminded me. Thanks.

In my experience many little girls love rough housing, too!


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## AngelBee

Reading through CC right now (I have severe ADHD....I read it before but retained only a little. The timing needs to be right for me to really get it.)

I was up til 330am reading.

Funny how God works. I was just writing in my journal yesterday about truly challenging my believes and the purposes they serve. Redirecting my thoughts. Re-evaluating my expectations of my self and people.

Then I felt the urge to read CC.









WOW! It is hitting me this time through!

I am almost finished with ch3 (have to take lots of notes to stay focused so I will be moving a bit slowly) but I am like







: in a good way.









It is truly making me examine EVERYTHING in my life.


----------



## jrose_lee

Is this thread still going? I would really like some advice/wisdom on doing CC with a Toddler. The in-arms phase came really naturally for me. As far as ds getting older....I want to get this right. Do I just go about my business and he can play or help me as he chooses? Just try to make everything on his level so he can help or watch? Try to be patient and include him in tasks even if it takes longer than if I just hurried through it. I'd love some "CC toddler tips!!!!"

jess


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## AmyMN

My toddler tip is to do what feels good for you and your ds. Read _How to Win by Quitting_ and _Your Competent Child_ if you want a couple books that I found helpful. And sign up for Scott Noelle's Daily Groove emails.

As Scott told me, it's not about being patient, it's about acceptance. I've found that really helpful.

As I read in the _Live Free Learn Free_ unschooling magazine, "Just relax and enjoy your beautiful children".


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## AngelBee

Just signed up for Daily Grooves...finally







:


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## Zannalyn

I make a point of letting DS (2 1/2) help whenever I can. I've (mostly) gotten used to not getting anything done quickly.







He runs to me saying "Me help Mama!"







and I love that so much! Some friends say "enjoy it while you can" in a tone that says it won't last long. But I'm hoping that by not forcing or denying, it will continue a long time. I remember when I was a kid I loved helping the adults who treated me well, and hated helping others who criticized harshly. I loved feeling useful and competent.


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## Zannalyn

Have any of you dealt with biting toddlers? We've gone through a little of this with nursing, but that has been easily resolved. Just in the past few days, DS has taken to biting my clothing, and sometimes gets my skin with it. I really don't know how to handle this.


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## AngelBee

Continuum Concept mamas.....I would love your input









http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=561434


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## zansmama




----------



## thismama

I'm here...


----------



## zansmama

Hey! I miss this thread!
Wow, CC parenting with an almost 4-year old is so much more complex in some ways...


----------



## thismama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama* 
Hey! I miss this thread!
Wow, CC parenting with an almost 4-year old is so much more complex in some ways...

Oooh, I'm interested! I have a 3.5 year old. What are your experiences?


----------



## kindergirl77

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Oooh, I'm interested! I have a 3.5 year old. What are your experiences?

Same question here... I have a 3 year old and a 1 year old and I find it difficult to give them both all of my attention (at the same time especially) now that my 1 year old isn't my 'in arms' baby anymore.


----------



## AmyMN

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama* 
Hey! I miss this thread!
Wow, CC parenting with an almost 4-year old is so much more complex in some ways...

I have had coaching with Scott Noelle. My dd1 is now 5, but at the time Scott was saying that CC-raised 4-year-olds in our culture are somewhat like the mainstream raised 2-year-olds.

Now how can I explain this. I guess our CC-raised 2-year-olds don't get "shut down" and are allowed to explore (physically and mentally and emotionally). By age 4, they feel strong in themselves and are brave to question how we are doing things in our culture, etc.

I think he said he was considering doing a whole program on 4-year-olds.

So, when you think about it, we are so blessed that our kids are strong and free-willed!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kindergirl77* 
I have a 3 year old and a 1 year old and I find it difficult to give them both all of my attention (at the same time especially) now that my 1 year old isn't my 'in arms' baby anymore.

Ewwww, kindergirl, this has been a struggle for me since dd2 was born (now 17 months). I had a lot of problems spreading my attention to my older dd.

Scott said, "Think of yourself as the sunshine." There's more than enough to go around.

What has helped me is

1-working on loving myself, finding my own bliss in our day
2-watching and reading _The Secret_. The universe is abundance, I am abundance.

The belief in scarcity is what has made it hard for me to have two children.

The other day my 5yo said, "Mom, come in the living room and see how fast I run." I was cooking lunch with my 1yo. I get a lot of requests from my 5yo while I'm doing something else.

I got in the abundance mode and said, "I AM in there. I see you!" She was really happy and ran fast in the living room with me physically in the kitchen (I was picturing her running as I heard her). And then she said, "HOW did you do that?" I said, "Magic!"

My dh said later, "Isn't that a lie?" I said, "Hm...no. I'm everywhere. My spirit was right there in the living room."

Do you hear the Twilight Zone theme? LOL:

Really, though. It's a mindset. We are spiritual beings and we can be more than one place at a time if we think of ourselves as a part of a huge universe. Please see The Secret if you haven't already

Also, I've been meditating on the mantra "We all get what we want, at the same time." (I even sing it to my girls.) And I feel the feelings of abundance. Every time I do, our life is altered.


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## AmyMN

THE DAILY GROOVE ~ by Scott Noelle www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove

:: "I'm Not A Frog-Boiler!" ::

When you reject authoritarian, coercive parenting in
favor of non-punitive, pleasure-oriented parenting,
critics and naysayers will warn you that your child
won't be able to cope in the "real" world.

The assumption is that "it's a jungle out there" and
we should gradually toughen up our kids and get them
used to suffering so they won't be shocked when they
venture out into the big, bad world.

It's like that famous experiment where they tossed a
healthy frog in boiling water and it leaped right out.
But if they put the frog in cool water and raised the temperature gradually over several days, the frog would be able to *adjust* and stay in the water.

The slow boil seems more humane, but that
"well-adjusted" frog eventually *died* from the heat!
Whereas the non-adjusted frog's intact sensitivity
protected it from being boiled.

Today, look for evidence that your child's sensitivity
is intact (e.g., negative reactions to unwanted
conditions) and be *grateful* for it! Tell yourself,
"My child will *never* get boiled!"

http://dailygroove.net/frog-boiler

Feel free to forward this message to your friends!

Copyright (c) 2007 by Scott Noelle
--
"Inspiration & Coaching for Progressive Parents" http://www.ScottNoelle.com http://www.EnjoyParenting.com 1-360-344-3117, or toll-free in the US: 1-877-ALL-4-JOY (1-877-255-4569)


----------



## mommaof3

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kindergirl77* 
Same question here... I have a 3 year old and a 1 year old and I find it difficult to give them both all of my attention (at the same time especially) now that my 1 year old isn't my 'in arms' baby anymore.

IMO, part of the Continuum Concept is about NOT "giving them all of your attention" but rather having them be part of the family/tribe work, and get their needs met from many sources. I think it's OK to ask one child to wait while you triage needs (including your own). Are your kids tandem nursing? I found that just sitting on the couch and nursing them both in the afternoon seemed to recharge our connection - and when the parent-child connection is strong, everything else is easier, and kids simply model after you.


----------



## AmyMN

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommaof3* 
IMO, part of the Continuum Concept is about NOT "giving them all of your attention" but rather having them be part of the family/tribe work, and get their needs met from many sources.

*Quoting Scott Noelle below:*

Quote:

http://www.movision.se/ny/pics/mat.mpg

Your videography is excellent! Please let us know if/when
more videos are available.

I wouldn't assume that the mother was not paying attention
to the child. I think it's more likely that it only *looks* like non-attention to our Western eyes because Western-style attention is more blatant, less subtle. I think she was probably so attuned with her child that looking at the child with her eyes would seem "redundant".

The anthropologist Richard Sorenson, who has studied the indigenous people of that same region, coined the term "intuitive rapport" to describe their interpersonal attunement. I call it "the one-body principle" because the mother's awareness of her child probably feels similar to her awareness of the parts of her own body -- her child is like an extension of her body in that sense. When you walk, you're aware of your feet, and that awareness is a subtle kind of attention. But you don't have to look at your feet when you walk unless they give you cues that gross attention is needed. Complete withdrawal of attention from your feet would result in a lot of twisted ankles.  Likewise, Western "CC" parents who think they shouldn't pay attention to their children may be missing out on the pleasure and other benefits of intuitive rapport.


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommaof3* 
IMO, part of the Continuum Concept is about NOT "giving them all of your attention" but rather having them be part of the family/tribe work, and get their needs met from many sources.
- and when the parent-child connection is strong, everything else is easier, and kids simply model after you.

Yeah, this has been more my feeling also_ just as I don't give anyone else in the world ALL of my attention ALL of the time, treating ds as an equal member of "the tribe" I would do the same for him.

But wow, what you said about CC 4-year olds being like 2-year-olds in our society really struck a chord! Ds has had so much anger lately, and though I am trying to not force my will, it IS difficult. How do you deal with demands such as "I want to go to the park RIGHT NOW!"? Of course I will not accept him forcing his will on me, but at the same time, unfortunately, he can't go to the park by himself. Ditto for buying cookies, playing board games, etc. i'm sure this would be easier if he wasn't an only child, but...
I do not interfere with his activities or his play (as much as possible), but what do I do when he intereferes with mine?


----------



## AmyMN

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama* 
How do you deal with demands such as "I want to go to the park RIGHT NOW!"? Of course I will not accept him forcing his will on me,

Why is it an "Of course I will not accept...?" I don't think that's a given. That's a choice you make. Also looking at his requests as "Forcing his will" on you is another choice you're making. You can choose to see it differently.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama* 
but at the same time, unfortunately, he can't go to the park by himself. Ditto for buying cookies, playing board games, etc. i'm sure this would be easier if he wasn't an only child, but...
I do not interfere with his activities or his play (as much as possible), but what do I do when he intereferes with mine?

Again, it is all how we look at it. I too struggle with wanting to work on my projects while dd1 (5) very often makes requests of me. But it all goes back to the belief in scarcity.

I notice a huge difference in how things go just by how I'm thinking. See the two scenarios below and notice the difference in how you feel just by reading them. BTW, I've had very similar experiences to both of my examples.

*Situation one:*

I'm cleaning the kitchen with dd2 (1) in the learning tower. Dd1 (5) yells from the other room, "Mom! I want us to have a halloween party. You get all the stuff for making decorations!"

My thoughts, "Jeez. She is making more demands of me that I just don't want to do. I want to clean the kitchen and now I feel guilty because I don't want to drop what I'm doing to keep dd1 happy. I wish I was a better mom and could be like a kindergarten teacher happily working on kid projects. I can never make her happy. I'm not good enough."

And then I end up snapping at her telling her to work on her own projects.

*Situation two:*

I'm cleaning the kitchen with dd2 (1) in the learning tower. Dd1 (5) yells from the other room, "Mom! I want us to have a halloween party. You get all the stuff for making decorations!"

Me: "That sounds like fun. I'm washing the dishes."

Dd1: GO GET THE STUFF!

Me: "I'm washing the dishes and you want a halloween party. We all get what we want at the same time!"

My thoughts, "I'm really happy that we get to share this house together and be together all day. Dd1 is so creative and active. I love getting the kitchen clean. The universe is abundant and we all get our needs met."

Dd1 runs into the kitchen and I give her a hug and give her a handful of dishsoap bubbles.


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyMN* 
Why is it an "Of course I will not accept...?" I don't think that's a given.

To me it goes hand in hand with the respect that i give to ds. I respect his equal personhood, ergo, most of the time, he respects mine. And many times we agree on activities, i.e.: they appeal to both of us. I don't force him to do what I want to do (except things like brushing teeth, planned trips, etc., things that I view as non-negotiable, which are hardly ever a problem anyway), and I don't accept being pushed into something either.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyMN* 
*Situation two:*

I'm cleaning the kitchen with dd2 (1) in the learning tower. Dd1 (5) yells from the other room, "Mom! I want us to have a halloween party. You get all the stuff for making decorations!"

Me: "That sounds like fun. I'm washing the dishes."

Dd1: GO GET THE STUFF!

Me: "I'm washing the dishes and you want a halloween party. We all get what we want at the same time!"

My thoughts, "I'm really happy that we get to share this house together and be together all day. Dd1 is so creative and active. I love getting the kitchen clean. The universe is abundant and we all get our needs met."

Dd1 runs into the kitchen and I give her a hug and give her a handful of dishsoap bubbles.

See, this is how it has been for us until very recently: very similar dynamic. However, now, the end result (to my exact same response as yours) is more like: ds becomes sullen, says something like: "I don't like you, I'm going to go live in Africa" (cute, i know) and then throws his toys around angrily until I go to him, take him in my lap and soothe him. I don't know if that's CC, it's my own instinct.
I don't know if this is a boy thing (many of my mama friends seem to think so) or what, but it's very new to our lives. Ds has always been pretty happy-go-lucky, and still is in the main, but I would say at least four or five times a week i get this kind of thing.


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## mommaof3

I think that having limits is OK (not "putting limits on" children, but simply having your own limits that you take responsibilty for) and there is a way to set limits respectfully. First, you carefully consider your limits and then you have just a few of them (that are really important to you), and then you take responsibilty (i.e. there's no need to sugar coat limits you can say directly "I won't let you hurt anyone" or "I don't want you to..." instead of saying things like "you don't want to..." or "you shouldn't..." or "let's not..."), and then you set the limit ("I don't want to go to the park now") and then you acknowledge their feelings about the limits ("you really want to go to the park now" "you wish I wanted to go too" "it's hard when you want to go to the park and I don't", etc.) and you can be understanding and kind and loving, and kids can feel respected even if they don't get what they want.

There are so many resources for respectful, connected parenting out there, and here is one of my favorites (I feel that it compliments The Continuum Concept wonderfully):

http://www.connectionparenting.com/p...les/index.html (scroll down for the articles), and Pam Leo's new book is great too!


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## LucyRev

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyMN* 
I have had coaching with Scott Noelle. My dd1 is now 5, but at the time Scott was saying that CC-raised 4-year-olds in our culture are somewhat like the mainstream raised 2-year-olds.

Now how can I explain this. I guess our CC-raised 2-year-olds don't get "shut down" and are allowed to explore (physically and mentally and emotionally). By age 4, they feel strong in themselves and are brave to question how we are doing things in our culture, etc.

I think he said he was considering doing a whole program on 4-year-olds.

So, when you think about it, we are so blessed that our kids are strong and free-willed!

Ewwww, kindergirl, this has been a struggle for me since dd2 was born (now 17 months). I had a lot of problems spreading my attention to my older dd.

Scott said, "Think of yourself as the sunshine." There's more than enough to go around.

What has helped me is

1-working on loving myself, finding my own bliss in our day
2-watching and reading _The Secret_. The universe is abundance, I am abundance.

The belief in scarcity is what has made it hard for me to have two children.

The other day my 5yo said, "Mom, come in the living room and see how fast I run." I was cooking lunch with my 1yo. I get a lot of requests from my 5yo while I'm doing something else.

I got in the abundance mode and said, "I AM in there. I see you!" She was really happy and ran fast in the living room with me physically in the kitchen (I was picturing her running as I heard her). And then she said, "HOW did you do that?" I said, "Magic!"

My dh said later, "Isn't that a lie?" I said, "Hm...no. I'm everywhere. My spirit was right there in the living room."

Do you hear the Twilight Zone theme? LOL:

Really, though. It's a mindset. We are spiritual beings and we can be more than one place at a time if we think of ourselves as a part of a huge universe. Please see The Secret if you haven't already

Also, I've been meditating on the mantra "We all get what we want, at the same time." (I even sing it to my girls.) And I feel the feelings of abundance. Every time I do, our life is altered.

Thank you so much for posting this. I have seen the Secret. I think I need to buy it though, or maybe get the book. I love your mantra and I am going to steal it







I have a 4 yr old and soon to be 1 yr old too. My 4 yr old is doing tons of "Look at me mommy" "watch this" "come see" and being very demanding. I am frustrated that she suddenly wants so much of my approval. When I ask her to do something for herself like throw something in the trash, she says "YOU do it" "I don't like to do that." She's also capable of doing so much on her own now, yet she still wants me to do those things for her anyway.

I have this visual image in my mind of an ideal day at home. All of all of us are in the house working on our own things, we are each little spirals and when we come together to work or play, our spirals intertwine. When DD is being so demanding, I feel like we become one thin line where the kids follow me. Or like I'm a spot, like a ball that bounces from one demand to the next. That probably makes no sense, but it is in my mind a lot.

Oy, this post is taking me too long.


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## AmyMN

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LucyRev* 
My 4 yr old is doing tons of "Look at me mommy" "watch this" "come see" and being very demanding. I am frustrated that she suddenly wants so much of my approval. When I ask her to do something for herself like throw something in the trash, she says "YOU do it" "I don't like to do that." She's also capable of doing so much on her own now, yet she still wants me to do those things for her anyway.

I think it's not so much an approval thing as it is trying to know you're present.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LucyRev* 
I have this visual image in my mind of an ideal day at home. All of all of us are in the house working on our own things, we are each little spirals and when we come together to work or play, our spirals intertwine. When DD is being so demanding, I feel like we become one thin line where the kids follow me. Or like I'm a spot, like a ball that bounces from one demand to the next.

Wow, I love this


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## AmyMN

THE DAILY GROOVE ~ by Scott Noelle www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove

:: Love the Behavior, Too ::

When a child's behavior is deemed inappropriate, the conventional wisdom is to "Love the child, hate the behavior."

Hmmm... It'd be nice if children could make the subtle distinction between self and behavior, but even adults have a hard time with that! If your partner tells you s/he hates your behavior, is it any less discouraging to hear, "but I love YOU"?

Our behavior is a reflection of who we are at the
moment. Hating your child's behavior is like saying
you don't love the part of your child that wants to
behave that way. To love unconditionally, you must
find a way to love the behavior, too.

Fortunately, *loving* unwanted behavior doesn't mean
*wanting* it or even tolerating it. You can love
unwanted behavior even as you take steps to change it!

But be open to the possibility that Love will
transform you, your child, and your relationship, such
that you no longer feel a need to change anything.

http://dailygroove.net/dont-explain/love-the-behavior

Today's Daily Groove message was originally
presented on August 21, 2006.

Feel free to forward this message to your friends!

Copyright (c) 2007 by Scott Noelle


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## AmyMN

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama* 
To me it goes hand in hand with the respect that i give to ds. I respect his equal personhood, ergo, most of the time, he respects mine. And many times we agree on activities, i.e.: they appeal to both of us. I don't force him to do what I want to do (except things like brushing teeth, planned trips, etc., things that I view as non-negotiable, which are hardly ever a problem anyway), and I don't accept being pushed into something either.

is this _inspiring_ to you (you expect the same respect from you 4yo as you give him, and having things 'non-negotiable')?


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## RBinTEX

Subbing







:


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyMN* 
is this _inspiring_ to you (you expect the same respect from you 4yo as you give him, and having things 'non-negotiable')?










I'm not sure what you mean...
If you're saying, do I find this pleasing, yes, I do. If you're saying, do I feel this is a good aspiration, yes, i do... Ds _is_ generally respectful to everyone, and both he and I enjoy the benefits of that. Of course to expect that all the time from a 4-year-old is extreme... I expect him to do the best he can, but no more than that.

As far as the non-negotiable issue goes, since we don't live in a completely tribal culture, unfortunately, I feel that I have to set some limited limits, such as: I'm sorry, sweetie, but I can't let you walk to the playground by yourself. (the playground is 3 blocks and a few somewhat busy streets away. Ds is 4) Also: If we have planned and bought tickets to fly to visit family for a few weeks, I am not open to changing my mind that morning because ds would rather fingerpaint. And health is an issue to me. Fortunately ds prefers healthy food anyway, but I wouldn't allow him to eat a whole box of cookies before bed, for instance.
I don't know if you understand what exactly I meant by non-negotiable, ( I would attempt to make it as pleasant for ds as possible, and maybe "make a deal" with him: "you do ABC for me, and I'll do EFG for you". I have never been the type to 'put my foot down' and say "you have to do what you're told"), but if you did, and you disagree, I would be interested to hear what alternative you would offer.

To me non-negotiable means that I am not willing to budge on the basic premise, however I may be open to alternatives (such as ds walking to the park with a (much older) friend, or bringing his fingerpaints on the plane, or having one cookie and then brushing his teeth before bed). Perhaps you thought I meant "inflexible"?

Adding to all of this: I am very aware that children have a very real need for attention and love, etc. I do not expect ds to take care of himself and make no requests to me. Just because I don't feel like doing a puzzle doesn't mean I wouldn't sit down and do it with him, for example, and we do spend a significant amount of time in child-directed play.
My issue is mainly about when I am working (doing dishes, cleaning, whatever) and ds demands something RIGHT NOW and becomes very angry about my rather mild reply of: "Not right now, honey, I'm doing the dishes. Why don't you do XYZ until I'm ready?"or better yet: "It's time to do the dishes right now. Would you like to help?"
Part of the problem for me is that, as I said before, this is very new territory for us. Ds has generally been pretty patient and self-directed until the past few weeks. I think we will both take a little while to adjust, or maybe he just needs to try out these new feelings for a little while, and they'll blow over.


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## PrincessDoll

Children are not at the same level as the parents, not even in the Yequana tribe. Children are in the process of learning and there are times that parents must pull rank. There was no sweet talking to a child, simple and direct commands were given quite a bit to the Yequana children.

I understand where zansmommy is coming from and I found myself agreeing with some of your perspectives. However, I am not strictly CC-minded as I am not one to abide by one philosophy. I do what feels right to me and my family. I honor my instincts and things usually fall into place better that way. Although, The Continuum Concept by far (besides the Bible) was the most profound book on my parenting views.


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## AmyMN

I think the words we choose to use have a lot of power. I don't want my dd taking off down the street w/o me; but I wouldn't say it's nonnegotiable. I sometimes want to give direction, but I wouldn't call it 'pulling rank'. I think most of the time adults have more life experience, but I wouldn't say we're at a higher level than kids. A lot of that sort of terminology (way of thinking) reminds me of how my parents thought (and still think) of children.


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## PrincessDoll

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyMN* 
I think the words we choose to use have a lot of power.

I definitely agree.

I just realized you added more to your comment.

I think it is a grave disservice to not give one's child direction. That is what they are looking to their parents, their leaders for. I am at a higher level than my child when it comes to life experiences. That doesn't make me a better person than them. It just means that parenting is not a partnership. However, I don't exercise my power over my child (as maybe your parents did). I have been given authority over my child, and I do in fact exercise my authority when I deem necessary. If you'd like for me to clarify the difference between authority and power, I would gladly do so.


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyMN* 
I don't want my dd taking off down the street w/o me; but I wouldn't say it's nonnegotiable.

Okay, I mean non-negotiable in the sense that I will not give in, no matter what (for instance the airplane trip). However, details could definitely be arranged/ negotiated.
Does that make more sense?


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## WuWei

We canceled a flight home to North Carolina, from New York, when our 5 year old did not want to fly. He was afraid to fly. He told me that he didn't like the noise (he is very auditory sensitive), and that he didn't like flying fast and flying high. We found a solution which worked to everyone's satisfaction. So, we ultimately returned for the night with our friends, with whom we were visiting. And decided to extend our trip by driving on to Niagara Falls and then drove home instead of flying. We had an adventure and the path opened up exactly as it needed to unfold. In our family, no one *has to* do anything they don't want to do.

Pat


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## AmyMN

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama* 
Okay, I mean non-negotiable in the sense that I will not give in, no matter what (for instance the airplane trip). However, details could definitely be arranged/ negotiated.
Does that make more sense?

I think I got ya the first time. How I understand CC and relate to CC and strive for CC is a different mindset than this.

This beautiful dance LucyRev described is reflective of how I see CC, below. This is the kind of parenting advice I, personally, want:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LucyRev* 
I have this visual image in my mind of an ideal day at home. All of all of us are in the house working on our own things, we are each little spirals and when we come together to work or play, our spirals intertwine. When DD is being so demanding, I feel like we become one thin line where the kids follow me. Or like I'm a spot, like a ball that bounces from one demand to the next.


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
We canceled a flight home to North Carolina, from New York, when our 5 year old did not want to fly. He was afraid to fly. He told me that he didn't like the noise (he is very auditory sensitive), and that he didn't like flying fast and flying high. We found a solution which worked to everyone's satisfaction. So, we ultimately returned for the night with our friends, with whom we were visiting. And decided to extend our trip by driving on to Niagara Falls and then drove home instead of flying. We had an adventure and the path opened up exactly as it needed to unfold. In our family, no one *has to* do anything they don't want to do.

Pat

I think I would definitely handle that situation in the same way you did... Luckily ds loves to fly_ i was more referring to a spur of the moment whim which little ones are so prone to.

And Amy MN, i hear you, I think we have some different perspectives. But hey,







who doesn't?

The whole reason these ideas come up for me is that I do strive to be as non-authoritarian as I can. Yes I am the adult, but ds is his own person...


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## PrincessDoll

The crux to my parenting methods are based on my faith (I am Greek Orthodox). That is my foundation, one in which everything else is based off of. CC is the second book that has impacted my parenting after the Bible. However, I interpret it a specific way for my family.

I don't see CC as being anti-authority, as others may interpret it. Even Jean Leidloff wrote an article regarding who is in control. Authority is very much a CC concept. The leadership of parents plays a significant role in the development of a child. I want my child to be a positive contributing member to society, which means that in certain circumstances he will have to yield to authority above him (police officers, speed limits, teachers, employers, etc). Anarchy and chaos result without a respect of authority.

A child who has only learned how to negotiate with one's parents has not learned how to submit to authority properly, imo. Proper authority is loving leadership, whereas parental power is a hostile form of manipulation. The former very much is aligned with CC styles of parenting, the latter is very much what most think of when they think of their "parent's style of parenting".

Case in point, this is an excerpt from the article I mentioned by Jean Liedloff:

Quote:

A toddler's fairly predictable reaction to parental uncertainty is to push his parents even further off-balance, testing for a place where they will stand firm and thus allay his anxiety about who is in charge. He may continue to draw pictures on the wall after his mother has pleaded with him to desist, in an apologetic voice that lets him know she does not believe he will obey. When she then takes away his markers, all the while showing fear of his wrath, he - as surely as he is a social creature - meets her expectations and flies into a screaming rage.

If misreading his anger, she tries even harder to ascertain what he wants, pleads, explains, and appears ever more desperate to placate him, the child will be impelled to make more outrageous, more unacceptable demands. This he must continue to do until at last she does take over leadership and he can feel that order is restored. He may still not have a calm, confident, reliable authority figure to learn from, as his mother is now moving from the point of losing her temper to the point at which guilt and doubts about her competence are again rearing their wobbly heads. Nevertheless, he will have the meager reassurance of seeing that when the chips were down, she did relieve him of command and of his panicky feeling that he should somehow know what she should do.

Put simply, when a child is impelled to try to control the behavior of an adult, it is not because the child wants to succeed, but because the child needs to be certain that the adult knows what he or she is doing. Furthermore, the child cannot resist such testing until the adult stands firm and the child can have that certainty. No child would dream of trying to take over the initiative from an adult unless that child receives a clear message that such action is expected - not wanted, but expected! Moreover, once the child feels he has attained control, he becomes confused and frightened and must go to any extreme to compel the adult to take the leadership back where it belongs.

When this is understood, the parents' fear of imposing upon their child is allayed, and they see that there is no call for adversariality. By maintaining control, they are fulfilling their beloved child's needs, rather than acting in opposition to them.

http://www.continuum-concept.org/rea...InControl.html
In my home, my son feels safe to explore his world, express his overwhelming emotions and know that I am a constant, an unchanging figure of love and leadership. I provide the stability that is not always present in his ever-changing world. He can depend on me and my help in making sense of things when the need arises. There is no worry about who is in control and so he is free to live and just be.


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## lrlittle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrincessDoll* 
Anarchy and chaos result without a respect of authority.

I thought she said their society was anarchy, no?


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## PrincessDoll

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lrlittle* 
I thought she said their society was anarchy, no?


How can a society so evidently in harmony with one another also be anarchy? I don't remember her describing the Yequana tribe as such, but I may be mistaken. I have not read the book in quite some time.


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## AmyMN

I find reading TCC every so often (like once a year) is really helpful as we're always learning and gaining new experience--thus, we see new things in the book we hadn't before.


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## PrincessDoll

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyMN* 
I find reading TCC every so often (like once a year) is really helpful as we're always learning and gaining new experience--thus, we see new things in the book we hadn't before.

True indeed. It reminds me of how each year I watch The Wizard of Oz, I gain something different from the movie from the year before.


----------



## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrincessDoll* 
How can a society so evidently in harmony with one another also be anarchy? I don't remember her describing the Yequana tribe as such, but I may be mistaken. I have not read the book in quite some time.

One can live in harmony with others without authority over another person, when one honors another's consent or dissent. My understanding of the Yequana was a tribe without coercion or control over each other. One can be an "authority" that one _chooses_ to follow, but there is a saying "if you have to enforce your authority, you have lost your authority".

Scott Noelle's article about "Where's My Center?~ A closer look at child-centered parenting and the continuum concept" is more reflective of a parent-child attunement than Liedloff was aware of, imo, as she was a young Western observer, and not a parent herself.
http://www.scottnoelle.com/parenting/child-centered.htm

Pat


----------



## lrlittle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrincessDoll* 
How can a society so evidently in harmony with one another also be anarchy? I don't remember her describing the Yequana tribe as such, but I may be mistaken. I have not read the book in quite some time.


p. 141 (Can't believe I found it)

"In a continuum culture like that of the Yequana, the functioning of leaders is minimal and it is possible for any individual to decide not to act on the leader's decision if he prefers; but it will be a long time before we can live so close to anarchy with success. It is nonetheless worthwhile keeping in mind as a direction in which to move when and if our cultures and population pressures permit."

My interpretation is that authority plays very little, if any part of CC. But that it is the social network that keeps the harmony. It seems the Yequanas were much more in tune with "what makes you happy makes me happy" and vice versa and so that's how decisions were made.


----------



## PrincessDoll

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lrlittle* 
p. 141 (Can't believe I found it)

"In a continuum culture like that of the Yequana, the functioning of leaders is minimal and it is possible for any individual to decide not to act on the leader's decision if he prefers; but it will be a long time before we can live so close to anarchy with success. It is nonetheless worthwhile keeping in mind as a direction in which to move when and if our cultures and population pressures permit."

My interpretation is that authority plays very little, if any part of CC. But that it is the social network that keeps the harmony. It seems the Yequanas were much more in tune with "what makes you happy makes me happy" and vice versa and so that's how decisions were made.

Wow, that was pretty awesome that you were able to find that quote. That must have been like looking for the needle in the haystack...lol

The thing to keep in mind is that the Yequana tribe is free from our Westernized influence and that plays a huge factor in their dynamics. At any rate, my main goal is to strive to be a Godly parent and then I employ CC methods where I see fit. I would never want to raise my child in a home where I felt I needed to negotiate every act or ask him his permission to parent him. I am his parent and I must be comfortable in my position of loving leadership, which to me is the glue that holds our society together. I would not want to live in the US if we did not have police officers, laws, rules, judges, teachers, etc. I shudder to think of the state of affairs. I honor and respect my elders simply because they have much to offer me. I think too many parents who want to employ CC methods are afraid to exercise their proper authority.

There are various ways of employing CC methods into one's parenting and that is what I interpret the title of this thread Continuum Concept(ish) Mamas to mean.


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## JohnnysGirl

Any other libertarian (or just unschooling) CC mamas on this thread?







: I am following this discussion closely but feel that I'm operating under a different framework as we don't believe in centralized government (including government run schools). I was just wondering if I'm the only one who is having thoughts from that sort of framework as I read these posts on authority and organized society, etc....


----------



## mommaof3

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Butterflymom* 
Any other libertarian (or just unschooling) CC mamas on this thread?







: I am following this discussion closely but feel that I'm operating under a different framework as we don't believe in centralized government (including government run schools). I was just wondering if I'm the only one who is having thoughts from that sort of framework as I read these posts on authority and organized society, etc....

I'm here with ya!









BTW,

Has anyone here read any books like, Original Wisdom, A Reasonable Life, Dancing with Mosquitoes, Noah's Children, Everything You Know is Wrong, A Pattern Language, In the Presence of Fear, Ishmael, My Name is Chellis and I'm in Recovery from Western Civilization, or anything like those?

Also, wanted to recommend the TCC Maven site for those of you who are interested.

http://www.tccmaven.com/


----------



## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Butterflymom* 
Any other libertarian (or just unschooling) CC mamas on this thread?

You might enjoy the Consensual Living yahoogroup: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...guid=140240070 The CL Newsletter had some interesting discussion about "Rights" and "Rules" and their role in society and relationships: http://tinyurl.com/3dxwxk

It sounds philosophically in line with what you mentioned.









Pat


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## WuWei

I haven't read any of those mommaof3, I added them to my reading list. Thanks for the suggestions.

Pat


----------



## PrincessDoll

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Butterflymom* 
Any other libertarian (or just unschooling) CC mamas on this thread?







: I am following this discussion closely but feel that I'm operating under a different framework as we don't believe in centralized government (including government run schools). I was just wondering if I'm the only one who is having thoughts from that sort of framework as I read these posts on authority and organized society, etc....

Actually, I think I'm the only mother here that feels the way I do in regards to authority and society. So, you are actually not as alone here as I am..lol


----------



## AmyMN

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommaof3* 
Has anyone here read any books like...Ishmael...

Yes, I've read _Ishmael_ and started _The Story of B_ but ran out of library time

Danial Quinn's website: http://ishmael.com

BTW, "I'm the boss" mentallity doesn't fit into how I understand CC. I would like to keep this thread to be pro-CC if that's alright with everyone

Pat, I can't get that link to work







and I do have Acrobat Reader.


----------



## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyMN* 

Pat, I can't get that link to work







and I do have Acrobat Reader.

Hmmm...are you already a member of CL? I thought you were; but the newsletter is in the files of the yahoogroup and is only accessible there at the moment. It seems that some folks are having difficulty accessing it; and we are trying to determine if it is something specific to one's computer privacy filters, or something about linking through yahoo. Yahoo has been crazy this week.

Pat


----------



## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyMN* 

BTW, "I'm the boss" mentality doesn't fit into how I understand CC. I would like to keep this thread to be pro-CC if that's alright with everyone

Actually, "I'm in charge (of myself)" is a fairly common interpretation and implementation of CC, in my experience. It is the delta between our inorganic environment and the original Yequana environment which creates the challenges, imo. In a tribal environment with multi-generational models and "leaders", one can *choose* who they emulate and follow. Embracing the practices of self-determination and interconnectivity which were observed in the Yequana, necessitates more forethought in a nuclear family unit within an industrialized and mechanized society.

Although, I agree that "being the boss" over another person, wasn't my understanding of the tribal system. Our societal limitations on a child who doesn't have the multi-generational models and resources is a fascinating implementation issue of CC. We've discussed some of that in the past on this thread. Here are some old posts regarding the CC tribe practice of "follow along". There is an old post of mine, #328. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...=144887&page=9

One regarding safety, #312
One regarding appointments/time restraints, #335
Two regarding trust/self-trust, #339 and #350

The Continuum concept and the implementation are challenging in our society!

Pat


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyMN* 
BTW, "I'm the boss" mentality doesn't fit into how I understand CC.

YES, I agree, "I'm the boss", not so great. How many parents endlessly micro-manage their children? Ugh!

(not such a big problem with we're the adults, you're the children..., myself.)







:
as in: the men are going to raid the other village: little boys stay home

Just thinking: how much easier all of this would be if our dc had their own little tribal crew to hang out with all day? No grown-ups supervising the frog-catching(or whatever). No adults around to mediate every single conflict. No need to ask permission to do what everyone else is doing. Just... free.
That 's what I'm working toward, but it's tough. Already our "playgroup" is starting to get more regimented despite my protests.







I'm really trying to set up at least our house that way.

...maybe I should join an unschooling group.


----------



## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyMN* 

Pat, I can't get that link to work







and I do have Acrobat Reader.

Ok, give this a go: http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8EQMRlq...r.doc%7E1..pdf

Pat


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## PrincessDoll

Amy, I do find that my presence is not wanted by you. I understand you are uncomfortable with it and I am effectively being ousted by the tribe. That is fine and I take my pardon.

Good day ladies.


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## mommaof3

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama* 
Just thinking: how much easier all of this would be if our dc had their own little tribal crew to hang out with all day? No grown-ups supervising the frog-catching(or whatever). No adults around to mediate every single conflict. No need to ask permission to do what everyone else is doing. Just... free.
That 's what I'm working toward, but it's tough. Already our "playgroup" is starting to get more regimented despite my protests.







I'm really trying to set up at least our house that way.

...maybe I should join an unschooling group.


Yeah, that was my fantasy too until I read Hold On To Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld, and learned about the dangers of too much peer-orientation.


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## Mama2Rowan

Subscribing and lurking...

I haven't yet read The Continuum Concept, but have read many of the supporting texts (Our Babies Ourselves, Ishmael, The Story of B, etc.). I therefore won't jump in and muddy the discussion. I have been learning a great deal, however. Ishmael rocked my thinking when I first read it in college, but I've since lost some of my idealism/energy. Determining how to translate my interest in such ideas into action can overwhelm me at times!

-Angie (mama to son Rowan, 17 months)


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrincessDoll* 
Amy, I do find that my presence is not wanted by you. I understand you are uncomfortable with it and I am effectively being ousted by the tribe. That is fine and I take my pardon.

Good day ladies.

Princess Doll,









This is not my perception or interpretation. I believe that alternative interpretations are welcome within a FYT tribe, just not debating CC philosophically. I did not find your posts to be nonsupporting of CC, just an alternative perspective, and probably not the minority that you assume. My experience with CC is that many folks interpret the 'adult leads' through our Western societal filters to equate to "boss". I felt that Amy was delineating the delta between authoritarian parenting and a CC-ish paradigm, in her understanding. She merely made a request to avoid top-down imposing on children within the CC-tribe. That seems to be in line with supportive posting guidelines. Certainly, your input and interpretation is equally valid, imo.









Pat


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommaof3* 
Yeah, that was my fantasy too until I read Hold On To Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld, and learned about the dangers of too much peer-orientation.

This is a fascinating issue to discuss within the CC-paradigm! How does this play out (no pun intended, lol) with playgroups, daycare, extended family, babysitters, etc. while embracing self-determination of children?

Pat


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## AmyMN

I'm not kicking anyone off this thread. I'm just not wanting to debate about authoritarian parenting on a Continuum Concept thread (or even read about it in a positive light). I think there are other threads for that.

_Hold on to Your Kids_ (HOTYK) is a great book. I'd like to read it again. It's been a while. But I recall the point that all ages of children always need to have adults to be attached to. In a school setting, for example, there usually aren't adults to attach to and learn from, so they attach to one another and try to learn from one another (resulting in all the teen troubles you can read about, for example).

So in light of HOTYKs and CC, the healthy setting would be lots of kids of all ages playing together with adults nearby (or participating with the adults). And the children would have attachment with all the adults.


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## AmyMN

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama2Rowan* 
I haven't yet read The Continuum Concept, but have read many of the supporting texts (Our Babies Ourselves, Ishmael, The Story of B, etc.). I therefore won't jump in and muddy the discussion. I have been learning a great deal, however. Ishmael rocked my thinking when I first read it in college, but I've since lost some of my idealism/energy. Determining how to translate my interest in such ideas into action can overwhelm me at times!

hey, minnesotan.








well, get to it! (TCC) :LOL
Also, The Secret has changed my perspective on 'changing the world'. I think it's great to be informed (Daniel Quinn). And then start seeing the world in a way that feels good. Our thoughts and feelings are way more powerful than we commonly think.


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## flowers

I just added HOYC to my "to read" list. Can't wait...sounds right up my alley.


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## EnviroBecca

AmyMN wrote:

Quote:

I'm cleaning the kitchen with dd2 (1) in the learning tower. Dd1 (5) yells from the other room, "Mom! I want us to have a halloween party. You get all the stuff for making decorations!"

Me: "That sounds like fun. I'm washing the dishes."

Dd1: GO GET THE STUFF!

Me: "I'm washing the dishes and you want a halloween party. We all get what we want at the same time!"

My thoughts, "I'm really happy that we get to share this house together and be together all day. Dd1 is so creative and active. I love getting the kitchen clean. The universe is abundant and we all get our needs met."

Dd1 runs into the kitchen and I give her a hug and give her a handful of dishsoap bubbles.
Maybe it's because I haven't learned The Secret, but I don't see how this works. How is DD1 getting what she wants? She could go get the stuff and make the decorations herself, and that might make her happy (except that she wanted to do it with you) but that's not in your story. What happens after you give her the hug and bubbles--does she forget about the Halloween party and start enjoying dishwashing with you? scamper off to have the party alone and feel good about it? something else?

Of the books Mommaof3 mentioned, the only one I read and liked is _A Pattern Language_. I don't agree with every single one of their ideas, but I like a lot of them, and I think the general concept of pattern language is excellent.

My brother loved _Ishmael_ and tried to get me to read it, but I couldn't stand it after about 30 pages. It seemed very hokey and really turned me off.

PrincessDoll, you're not the only one here who appreciates many of the basic principles of "civilized" society! I do, too. Although there are many ways that government, law enforcement, etc. can be done wrong, I think the underlying ideas are very useful. They are not the ONLY way for people to live together in a group larger than a tribe/village, but they are an effective way of accomplishing that.

Speaking of which, and speaking of reading, I recently read _The Human Zoo_ by Desmond Morris. It's full of fascinating insights into human behavior from the perspective of zoology. But all the way through I remained skeptical of his overall premise, which is that no animal including humans can live healthy/sane/correct lives at high population density with a lot of the work of survival being done by others. He "proves" this theory with examples that just don't ring true with me. I live in the city, not in a gigantic apartment block but in MUCH less space than a primitive person; I often go a couple of months without spending any time where I can't see concrete or hear traffic; I spend a few hours a day surrounded by strangers...and I don't feel that it wears on me at all! In fact, compared to living in suburbia where I had much more space around me and more plants and quiet, I feel a lot more comfortable here. I guess I am a domesticated animal rather than a wild animal unnaturally zoo'd? My gut feeling is that city life better meets the expectations of my personal continuum than a more rural, self-sufficient life would.

Quote:

In a school setting, for example, there usually aren't adults to attach to and learn from








This idea was one that always puzzled me when I was a kid in school: My classmates (I hesitate to use the word "peers" since I so often felt stranded in a foreign culture!) seemed to think that the teachers and other adults, like playground aides and parent volunteers, were some type of hostile alien species that had us imprisoned, and that our goal was to fight their influence so that we could do our kid things. Whereas I was always looking to develop a relationship with the adults so that I could learn from them. Every year except for horrible 9th grade, I had at least one adult-at-school with whom I would have lengthy conversations, often spending recess talking with the adult or hanging around after school. In retrospect, this must be one of the things that got me labeled an "apple polisher" and less tactful terms, but really it had nothing to do with a quest for better grades; it was just the way I knew to relate to people, and the adults tended to be far more interesting than most of the kids. This has a lot to do with how I was parented.

I wonder if my son will be the same way. After going to a small home childcare from 3 months-2 years old, he is now at a larger center run more like a school. He does interact with the other kids, but I've noticed and the teachers comment that he talks with the teachers much more than most of the kids do.

*Here's an interesting thing my son has just started doing:* Sometimes, he says, "Mama, don't watch me!" in an exasperated but semi-playful tone. I'm not sure what to make of it or how to respond. He's done it in a variety of situations in the last week or two, but the one where it's happened repeatedly is when we're walking from our final bus stop to our house. Lately, when we are in this area in the evening (but not the morning) he wants to pick up small rocks from any of the several sources available, and sometimes he wants to put the rocks into his mouth. I strongly discourage this because the rocks are dirty and a choking hazard and could harm his teeth, all of which I have explained. I've tried various reactions to rocks in his mouth, all of which he seems to find humorous and not discouraging.







: Anyway, I suspect that, "Mama, don't watch me!" means, "Mama, stop supervising me so that I can do something I know you don't want me to do," but I have no idea how to respond to that! Any suggestions?? The other times he's said, "Mama, don't watch me!" all could have the same translation, but most have not been in a context of my trying to dissuade him from some specific behavior. Sometimes I've tried looking away and then turning slowly back to him and smiling when he realizes I'm looking, and he then repeats, "Mama, don't watch me!" with escalating giggles and no anger...so perhaps it's just a game he's initiating? But the conjunction with the rock-eating has me wondering...and what made me think of posting this here is the several mentions, both here and in the Liedloff and Noelle articles, of kids saying, "Watch me! Look at me!" which I rarely hear from my son. If "Watch me!" means a child is trying to know you're present, does "Don't watch me!" mean I am somehow TOO present?







:


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## kmamma

EnviroBecca--about your comment on the dishwashing and halloween party and everyone getting what they need: The Secret is based on the law of attraction, and so is much of the concepts in CC--maybe I would say entirely. I personally feel that this concept is really at the core of human existence, and that most cultures today have chosen to not live by it. Well, the Yequanas seemed to live and breath the law of attraction. Remember everything about parental expectations in the book, and how our children behave accordingly? Amy's story is exactly that (at least that's how I see it). She may not have spelled it out, but I didn't feel I needed any additional information. Although I have seen the Secret and it does make it easier to understand.
A point though, her daughter did not express that she wanted to get the decorations done with her mama, only to have the party all together. By ordering her to do it however, I'm guessing she only wanted to make a connection. Because Amy acknowledged her desires, I think dd1 felt sufficiently 'connected' and consequently she felt fine. Imo, it doesn't matter what she did afterwards, that's not the point of the story. I think in our society, we're oftne disconnected from each other, not necessarily because we don't do things together, but for other, more subtle reasons. I can feel totally connected to ds even though he's off doing something else while I'm doing housework, and I can feel disconnected even when I'm playing with him (mostly because my mind is worrying about something and/or I'm not feeling good about something).

Rambling, but hope you get the point. It's late







.


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## JohnnysGirl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 

*Here's an interesting thing my son has just started doing:* Sometimes, he says, "Mama, don't watch me!" in an exasperated but semi-playful tone. I'm not sure what to make of it or how to respond. He's done it in a variety of situations in the last week or two, but the one where it's happened repeatedly is when we're walking from our final bus stop to our house. Lately, when we are in this area in the evening (but not the morning) he wants to pick up small rocks from any of the several sources available, and sometimes he wants to put the rocks into his mouth. I strongly discourage this because the rocks are dirty and a choking hazard and could harm his teeth, all of which I have explained. I've tried various reactions to rocks in his mouth, all of which he seems to find humorous and not discouraging.







: Anyway, I suspect that, "Mama, don't watch me!" means, "Mama, stop supervising me so that I can do something I know you don't want me to do," but I have no idea how to respond to that! Any suggestions?? The other times he's said, "Mama, don't watch me!" all could have the same translation, but most have not been in a context of my trying to dissuade him from some specific behavior. Sometimes I've tried looking away and then turning slowly back to him and smiling when he realizes I'm looking, and he then repeats, "Mama, don't watch me!" with escalating giggles and no anger...so perhaps it's just a game he's initiating? But the conjunction with the rock-eating has me wondering...and what made me think of posting this here is the several mentions, both here and in the Liedloff and Noelle articles, of kids saying, "Watch me! Look at me!" which I rarely hear from my son. If "Watch me!" means a child is trying to know you're present, does "Don't watch me!" mean I am somehow TOO present?







:


I was a major, "Don't watch me!!" kinda little girl myself, and it was just the beginnings of a fiercely independent, confident, self-sufficient feeling young lady that I ended up being. From the time I could walk and formulate the words, I was begging my mother to lay off and let me toddle off down the beach ( I grew up in Honolulu) to interact with people without her hovering. She mostly respected my wishes, pretending not to watch when she really was, and we were both happy. You're not too present, you've just got a clever and independent/brave feeling kiddo. That's great!


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## mamarhu

"Don't Watch Me" could be the title of my DD's biography! I've got to remember that. At 11, she will cook dinner, clean the house, rearrange the living room furniture; but only when no one is watching. If I come into the kitchen midway into her preparations, she will either ask me to leave, or ask me to finish the cooking. She will often clean the house when everyone else is asleep. She is a very private person, and the time she needs alone has never been used for anything unacceptable, at least not since she was a toddler. Her projects did get a little messy when she was tiny! She has always been fiercely independent, and I treasure this aspect of her.


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## AmyMN

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamarhu* 
"Don't Watch Me" could be the title of my DD's biography!

I think that this is very natural for people to not want to be watched.

If my dd says, "Watch me" I take it to mean "acknowledge my existence" (something that is done so easily without looking or speaking in traditional cultures with slow lives and not many distractions). It seems like in nature it's easier to be connected. I notice this on hikes or camping.

Envirobecca mentioned being too present. I don't think there's such a thing. Either one is present or not. It could be one is too hyperfocused or too involved. Maybe he senses you almost holding your breath in anticipation, or breathing quickly in excitement (I'm using this as more of a visual than an actual action perhaps). "Don't look at me" could mean go about your business...WHILE being present/attached. Watch that video clip I posted a page or two back. The mom is very present and attached and aware without being hyperfocused.


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## LucyRev

My daughter went through a long "don't watch me" phase too. She has only recently (at 4) entered the "look at me" phase. She would say don't watch me when she wanted to do something she knew I didn't approve of, but also when she was doing anything that she didn't want any judgement of. Sometimes it was hard for me to watch her do some new skill without saying, "wow, you did ___!!" because I was genuinely impressed and surprised. She would say, "DON'T SAY THAT!" I learned to just keep it to myself. Lately she has been more okay with showing her work and being proud of it.

That aspect of her personality also made it really hard to try to "teach" her something. The best way for her was if I just worked along side her and she could observe the way I did it and implement it in her own way. She would be very hurt if I tried to show her how to do something that wasn't her own way. She would rather struggle through doing it in her own way than copy something I tried to show her. Even if it was something like holding scissors. She has just never been interested in direct instruction...how very continuum of her







. Now that she is interested in writing and spelling, so she has been asking me to write examples for her to copy and asking me if she made letters correctly. It really makes me worried about how she will do in a traditional school setting, not to mention the peer thing. I haven't yet read HOTYK, but it's on my list. Unschooling sounds great, I'm just not sure I can handle it.


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## AmyMN

I think _Your Competent Child_ by Jesper Juul is a must-read. I own it, love it and will read it again soon.


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## EnviroBecca

Quote:

EnviroBecca--about your comment on the dishwashing and halloween party and everyone getting what they need: The Secret is based on the law of attraction, and so is much of the concepts in CC--maybe I would say entirely. I personally feel that this concept is really at the core of human existence, and that most cultures today have chosen to not live by it. Well, the Yequanas seemed to live and breath the law of attraction. Remember everything about parental expectations in the book, and how our children behave accordingly? [...] Imo, it doesn't matter what she did afterwards, that's not the point of the story.
Um, if the point of the story is that our children behave in accordance with our expectations, then how can it not matter how AmyMN's child behaves after AmyMN expresses her expectations?







: She's told us how her approach "worked" in terms of her own thoughts but not how it "worked" on her daughter.

I mean, this is the "translation" of the dialogue as I understand it:
Child: "Mom! I want to do a specific activity, and I want you to participate!"
Mom: "I hear what you want to do. I am doing something else now."
Child: "Do what I want you to do!"
Mom: "I am doing something, and you want something different to happen. We all get what we want at the same time!"
It seems to me that the last sentence is a direct contradiction of the previous sentence. If I were the child, I probably would conclude that my mother was not listening to me, or that she was blowing me off with a half-thought-out attempt to be nice about it.







: That's why I am so curious about how AmyMN's daughter reacted.

Interesting thoughts on "Don't watch me!" My son is not showing any other signs of being particularly independent: He still wants to co-sleep, do everything we do all day long, get us involved in whatever he has decided to do (except eat rocks), and talk to us a lot. While there are times when I hyperfocus on him, walking home is not one of them, particularly after we cross the street for the last time; I just walk, looking back about every 30 seconds to see how he's doing, and I don't wait for him unless going on would put us so far on opposite sides of the peak of the hill on our street that I wouldn't be able to see him anymore (so we get up to 100 feet apart, but typically he keeps within 30 feet), and I don't go back to where he is unless he appears to need rescuing. He was a very competent pedestrian until this rock-eating, which seems to have come out of nowhere.


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
Um, if the point of the story is that our children behave in accordance with our expectations, then how can it not matter how AmyMN's child behaves after AmyMN expresses her expectations?







: She's told us how her approach "worked" in terms of her own thoughts but not how it "worked" on her daughter.

I mean, this is the "translation" of the dialogue as I understand it:
Child: "Mom! I want to do a specific activity, and I want you to participate!"
Mom: "I hear what you want to do. I am doing something else now."
Child: "Do what I want you to do!"
Mom: "I am doing something, and you want something different to happen. We all get what we want at the same time!"
It seems to me that the last sentence is a direct contradiction of the previous sentence. If I were the child, I probably would conclude that my mother was not listening to me, or that she was blowing me off with a half-thought-out attempt to be nice about it.







: That's why I am so curious about how AmyMN's daughter reacted.


Quote:

I'm cleaning the kitchen with dd2 (1) in the learning tower. Dd1 (5) yells from the other room, "Mom! I want us to have a halloween party. You get all the stuff for making decorations!"

Me: "That sounds like fun. I'm washing the dishes."

Dd1: GO GET THE STUFF!

Me: "I'm washing the dishes and you want a halloween party. We all get what we want at the same time!"

My thoughts, "I'm really happy that we get to share this house together and be together all day. Dd1 is so creative and active. I love getting the kitchen clean. The universe is abundant and we all get our needs met."

Dd1 runs into the kitchen and I give her a hug and give her a handful of dishsoap bubbles.
Above is the original quote. This is a nuancy area where CC observations of the tribe, and Aldort's validation, don't automatically meet everyone's needs/wants/desires, imo. Granted, we are not *responsible* for meeting other's needs, imo. But, I desire to facilitate an interconnected relationship where I do help others in our family to meet their needs, concurrently with my own. So, by each stating our needs, as in the example above, we each have the *autonomy* to meet our own needs. Mama does dishes, and child has the ability to come be present with mama. The same solution could be reached and be preferable, or merely be a compromise. Finding ways where each's preferences are met, involves more discussion, imo, than CC or Aldort represents. The *action* after we validate can be autonomous or interconnected.

Perhaps, the hug and bubbles are *preferable* to both parties. Perhaps, not. Maybe the child prefers doing something with the mama, maybe the mama prefers doing the dishes alone, maybe they both would prefer something different and delay their individual strategies. But, when one is 'non-negotiable' about further discussion of another's preferences and just states their own need/want/desire, the abundant possibilities are not being sought. Only the initial two stated strategies are on the table.

Granted, the self-talk of guilt and satisfaction are different when the expectation differs. In the first, the mama's self-talk is that *she* is responsible for solving for the "demands". In the second, the mama's self-talk is that the *child* is responsible for solving their own need/want/desire. A further step is to discuss the strategies on the table and seek to identify the underlying needs of both, transparently and vocally. THEN, abundant solutions which are *preferable* to both can be sought based upon each's specific requests of the other. For instance, 'I can come play when I am done with the dishes. Do you want to help me finish them up?' Or, 'Mama, would you come play when you are done?'

Quote:

Interesting thoughts on "Don't watch me!" My son is not showing any other signs of being particularly independent: He still wants to co-sleep, do everything we do all day long, get us involved in whatever he has decided to do (except eat rocks), and talk to us a lot. While there are times when I hyperfocus on him, walking home is not one of them, particularly after we cross the street for the last time; I just walk, looking back about every 30 seconds to see how he's doing, and I don't wait for him unless going on would put us so far on opposite sides of the peak of the hill on our street that I wouldn't be able to see him anymore (so we get up to 100 feet apart, but typically he keeps within 30 feet), and I don't go back to where he is unless he appears to need rescuing. He was a very competent pedestrian until this rock-eating, which seems to have come out of nowhere.








My experience is that ds has said similar "Mama, don't watch!" when I have given him information/caution which he doesn't want to apply, but doesn't want to cause me discomfort with his actions either. He solves it by asking me not to watch.







Sorta like when we suggest he close his bedroom door when I use the blender. He doesn't like the noise, and out of consideration for his discomfort, we suggest a way he can avoid experiencing the event. I believe it is an effective means of having autonomy and showing empathy. Or it could be to avoid "getting in trouble" in some homes. But, we don't have that dynamic. I don't believe it is being "too present"; perhaps it is more a sense of growing independence.

The other thought, is if you are walking far ahead, he could be seeking out your attention by intentionally notifying you that he is going to do something he *knows* causes you concern. I know our son will *wail* about an Ouch! if he needs more TLC and an opportunity to connect with me. Sort of a siren of a underlying need, to affect the outcome that he desires. Mostly, this exaggerated reaction is when he is tired and is less able to just ask for what he needs directly.

Pat


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## LucyRev

I am not judging or trying to tell you what to do here, just wanted to share a story. When my daughter was 2, she was very competent, always stayed within my sight and on the sidewalk. I trusted her common sense. I didn't overly focus on the dangers of cars or how she should stay right next to me.

One day when we were walking into the house, she got a strange look on her face and quietly said, "I'm going to run to the the street now." She was behind me in our yard while I was bringing in groceries. I turned and said STOP! but she was already running full speed straight into the street. She ran so fast that she tripped over her feet and fell flat in the middle of the road. I nearly had a heart attack. Thank god the road was clear. She may have looked before she ran, but cars come quickly, and there's quite a blind spot...

I asked her why she did it and she said she just wanted to. She never did it again. I think she was just testing what would happen. She has always been one to learn through experience. Sometimes she will do something that has hurt her in the past because she trusts the she can do it this time, and I assume she doesn't really mind getting hurt. She's such a thrill seeker.


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## EnviroBecca

Quote:

My experience is that ds has said similar "Mama, don't watch!" when I have given him information/caution which he doesn't want to apply, but doesn't want to cause me discomfort with his actions either. He solves it by asking me not to watch.
Hmmm! That might be it!

Quote:

The other thought, is if you are walking far ahead, he could be seeking out your attention by intentionally notifying you that he is going to do something he *knows* causes you concern.
No, he only says it when I am very nearby and already looking at him. When I get far ahead and look back to see him eating rocks, he hasn't said anything first.


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## AmyMN

THE DAILY GROOVE ~ by Scott Noelle www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove

:: The Power of AND ::

Today we'll expand our vocabulary with a new verb: AND

To AND means to include that which is normally
excluded. When you take two things that are supposed
to be exclusive, opposed, or incompatible, and put
them together anyway, you are AND-ing.

Consider this situation with an exhausted parent:

"I want to take a nap, BUT my child wants
me to play with her. One of us has to lose.
It's EITHER her OR me."

To AND that situation, try this perspective:

"I want to take a nap, AND my child wants
me to play with her. Both of us can win.
BOTH her AND me."

AND-ing is an act of faith, because initially you
don't know *how* both sides will experience a win.
But you trust that in a Universe of infinite possibility,
there *must* be a way.

AND-ing opens your creative channels and makes you
susceptible to inspiration. And before you know it,
you and your child are playing a game called
"Sleeping Giant." 

http://dailygroove.net/and

Today's Daily Groove message was originally
presented on September 8, 2006.

Feel free to forward this message to your friends!

Copyright (c) 2007 by Scott Noelle


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## flowers

I really connected with that dailygroove. Thanks for the the post!


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## KBug

I highly recommend subscribing to the Daily Groove - it's always inspiring and uplifting!


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## flowers

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBug* 
I highly recommend subscribing to the Daily Groove - it's always inspiring and uplifting!

Thanks for the inspirations! I just did!


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## AmyMN

EnviroBecca, i read your concerns a few days ago. I understand them. I struggle with 'all get what we want' concept too. I BELIEVE IN IT. So I'm not going to doubt it, or expect someone to prove it to me. OTOH, I do need a lot of support with it because it doesn't come naturally to me.

Thanks, Pat, for your clarifications (and Kmamma too).


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## AmyMN

So, in light of what you said, Pat, as well as in light of the LOA/Consensual Living/TCC...

My dd1 (5) likes a lot of interaction, she likes to talk a lot, ask a lot of questions. She likes inventing projects, and asking me to gather all the supplies, and asking me to work on them throughout our day. Also throughout the day, she makes several requests for snacks, to get her dressed, to carry her around the house, to get her ice water, to get, to get, to get...

I understand that she is trying to connect with me. And I want her to always feel comfortable asking for what she wants. I enjoy being around my two daughters all day and night (I also have a nursing 1.5 year old; we three cosleep).

Starting this week, dd1 will be taking four park/recreation classes a week (from 30 minutes to 1.5 hours each). As long as she loves them, I'll keep her in them (we're unschoolers). I'm really relieved because all the attention and focus will be off of me, and dd1 will be getting those needs met which seem overwhelming to me. Yet, the classes aren't that long so we'll get to be together the rest of the time.

What I'd really like is a live-in nanny (wouldn't we all) to be the structure and the routine and facilitator in our family with whom each of us could or would not have to participate. I could still be with my kids and available for my kids; but there would be someone else that can be the fun kindergarten-teacher type that I just don't want to be.

I feel guilty for not wanting to be this on one hand. But then after doing an exercise where I wrote everything I want in my life, it all involves things like being a great homemaker (housekeeping, cooking) for myself and my family, exercising, writing, dancing...and not so much "coloring and playing restaurant". My kids are always welcome to join me in what I'm doing; and I'm always around 99.999 percent of the time.

Anyway, I'd like to know your take on this. I'm almost ready to give Scott Noelle another call for more coaching.

P.S. I do a lot of start-and-stopping with anything I'm working on to care for my 1.5 year old (nursing, EC/diapers, carrying around, and so forth) in addition to helping dd1

I feel like I'm a big disappointment to my dd1--like I don't quite make the grade.


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## EnviroBecca

AmyMN, it sounds to me like these classes likely will be just what your daughter needs to fill her desire for structured fun. Don't feel bad that you can't provide it!







No one person is everything to anyone. Learning from a variety of people will enrich your daughter's life. I bet that if a Yequana mama is washing dishes, and her daughter comes over clamoring that she wants to weave a rug, mama doesn't waste a moment feeling bad about not wanting to teach weaving (now or ever) but simply points her daughter to someone who is weaving.

Have you tried suggesting to your daughter that she take charge of whatever project she is asking you to take charge of? When I was around that age, I started spending a lot of time doing things like deciding who among my friends and family would play which character if I were casting a play of _Alice in Wonderland_ and drawing up the program...with enthusiastic ideas about actually making this production happen, but when I'd go find my mom and tell her all about it and show her the program (while she was baking bread, or whatever) she'd express great admiration for my careful planning and ask questions to help me further embroider my fantasy ("What color costume would each of them wear?"), and after a while I'd feel so satisfied with it that I'd go on to something else.


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## JohnnysGirl

AmyMN,
I feel exactly the same way about my 3.5 year old son....he is also kind of a 'entertain me entertain me entertain me' all day long kinda guy, and since we haven't had naps in nearly a year, it is a loooooong 13 hours to spend with him without a break, with a 19 month old needing everything that toddlers need, all the time, including total silence for nurse-to-sleep naptime ( ha! ), and I nurse him throughout the night in our family bed, with my older son finally sleeping peacefully througout the night on my other side (for two years until just recently he was waking up with strange night terrors that would last hours and they were several times a week and just so, so hard to deal with). I'll set him up to draw or paint and he just wants me to come in and do it for him while he watches. He is so happy and content as long as I'm 'performing' for him some little nifty trick, and giving him all kinds of attention minute-to-minute, but if I try to attend to our younger son or heaven forbid clean/cook/use the bathroom, I've got both of them just clamoring me down to shower them with attention. The younger boy I don't mind at all him being the way he is, of course, I'll even nurse him while I'm sitting on the toilet, sure, no problem, I answer any request he has for me without any exhasperation, but my older..... I do wish he be a little more innovative about how to fill his time and a little less needing me to hold his hand and actually play FOR him while he observes with a grin. I feel like a circus monkey in this role, and for that I feel a little guilty, too. I do feel like I am falling short in that 'kindergarten teacher' smiley enthusiasm for painting/blocks/train/etc play that my son needs me to provide all day long. I haven't had a minute just for myself in ages, not for a nap, not for a private shower, not for a walk, not to get to the gym, not to just lay back and daydream while my kids play near me....because there is no play unless mom is providing the entertainment, pretty much. I do catch the boys playing together for five minutes at a time before it erupts in hysterical fighting over a toy, but it's barely long enough to start preparing a meal or clean a spot in the home before there's some violent outbreak between them where I feel compelled to protect little brother since he's so outmatched in terms of size and bad-guy attitude (but mostly because when DS1 lashes out and hits him and growls about something, his FEELINGS are absolutely crushed and he crumples to the floor, bereft and crying and I feel like I must soothe the little one year old).
I too dream of on-site help for the bulk of the kids' active hours, (the early hours of the morning being fine, eating breakfast, and slowly getting ready for the day AND the evening winding-down hours being fine before bed), as the between after-lunch time and time-to-make-dinner time, with the crisis being when I try to get the younger for a nap, it would be great to have a nanny entertainer to provide some fresh games and activities and direct, good-mood, stimulating attention for them to burn energy with, while I'm around if anyone needs a hug or a nurse or wants to join in to what I'm doing (I'd love to start playing the flute again and it would be fine to have an audience if the boys get interested in listening, but I assume they'd be bored and looking for their "nanny-activity-leader" after 30 seconds) but I'd know that the boys' need for doing doing doing all kinds of play activities that I get burned out of if I have to be doing 13 hours nonstop per day, but appreciate that my oldest son never gets bored of, are being met. Just to read during the afternoons for a half hour would be awesome, as after bedtime I am so fried and exhausted to read without falling asleep. I'm actually considering getting a live-in au pair, as we can't afford a real nanny. Has any CC mamas on this thread tried that?b


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## AmyMN

I didn't read all your post yet. It wasn't until almost age 4 that my dd1 ventured off on her own around the house! The more I wished she would, of course, the more she clung to me. Kids know everything we're feeling (not saying they _understand_ it). Even at 5, she's still somewhat like this. I really think it's due to me wanting her to be more independent. I'm doing things differently with dd2.

I've done a 'mama's helper' before where a homeschooling 10-year-old came over to play with dd1 for a couple hours a week. I paid her like $2/hour. It didn't last long as they moved. I think it's hard to find older kids, these days, that know how to and like to play with younger kids.

For me, really, I think neighborhood kids would solve most of these problems for me! I think only another kid can keep up with my dd1







We don't have kids in our 'hood. So I'm visualizing families with whom we get along with moving into the two homes for sale (plus the two soon-to-be-for-sale homes). Come on cool neighbors!


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## EnviroBecca

I am hoping for cool neighbors too! There are two places for sale and two for rent on our block...and we live in the middle of a row of 3 houses and have always been sad that our conjoined neighbors have been so distant, not unfriendly exactly but keeping to themselves and giving us the briefest of waves on those rare occasions when we actually see each other...but recently we think the one neighbor may have died (I am appalled that we don't actually know and that the only way I could think of to find out was to look for a newspaper obit!) and the other seems to have stopped renting rooms to grad students and has a lot of junk on his porch, so perhaps he's getting ready to leave...so we are hoping both houses will sell to friendly people and we'll live in a village!







Any ideas on how to use The Secret or any other type of positive thinking to attract compatible neighbors?


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## flowers

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
I am hoping for cool neighbors too! There are two places for sale and two for rent on our block...and we live in the middle of a row of 3 houses and have always been sad that our conjoined neighbors have been so distant, not unfriendly exactly but keeping to themselves and giving us the briefest of waves on those rare occasions when we actually see each other...but recently we think the one neighbor may have died (I am appalled that we don't actually know and that the only way I could think of to find out was to look for a newspaper obit!) and the other seems to have stopped renting rooms to grad students and has a lot of junk on his porch, so perhaps he's getting ready to leave...so we are hoping both houses will sell to friendly people and we'll live in a village!







Any ideas on how to use The Secret or any other type of positive thinking to attract compatible neighbors?

Ooooo! What a delicious situation to be in! I would just keep daydreaming and envisioning the type of community/friends you WANT! Don't even get into the "I hope" or "If only cool neighbors..." kind of thoughts. Just sit back and think about block parties, family dinner cooperatives, potlucks etc! I know great neighbors will move into your neighborhood!


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Butterflymom* 
he is also kind of a 'entertain me entertain me entertain me' all day long kinda guy, and since we haven't had naps in nearly a year, it is a loooooong 13 hours to spend with him without a break... I'll set him up to draw or paint and he just wants me to come in and do it for him while he watches. He is so happy and content as long as I'm 'performing' for him some little nifty trick, and giving him all kinds of attention minute-to-minute, but if I try to attend to our younger son or heaven forbid clean/cook/use the bathroom, I've got both of them just clamoring me down to shower them with attention...

... I've abbreviated so as not to take up too much space....

Not to be picky, but I don't see how this style would fit in with the Continuum Concept. It seems to me that Yequena children are A) playing with other children, or B) participating in adult tasks.

Although ds does want me to play with him (and of course I do, here and there), I really try to emphasize the daily tasks that "must" be done. (by me, and him if he wants to help) Our play together mostly consists of physical play, or singing (which is a wonderful way to include dc while working), or doing art together. Otherwise, I am doing the dishes, laundry, cleaning, or whatever, and he is always welcome to participate, no matter how messy or time-consuming it might get. And all of these things can be playful and enjoyable if done with that spirit. I don't want to teach ds that work is drudgery.
I do make sure that he has a few hours every day with some kids,and other adults, somewhere, either at the park or playgroup, or the kids I babysit.( Ideally he would have siblings, but dp isn't on board with that)

This is how I have viewed the CC "ideal", myself.
I'm curious to know what you all think of that, because it seems that a lot of us have very different interpretations.


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## AmyMN

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama* 
This is how I have viewed the CC "ideal", myself.
I'm curious to know what you all think of that, because it seems that a lot of us have very different interpretations.

First, I think it's awesome that you are living the CC ideal! Secondly, it sounds to me very CC-like.

I think the difference between your day-to-day living and mine (and others that struggle with this) could be as basic as our, the mamas, thoughts and feelings. For example, sometimes I think, "This is so hard. She's making things so hard for me and for us. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm afraid I'm going to be, or already am, just like my mom. Dd1 is so disappointed in me."

Those sorts of things, of course, aren't what I'd consider healthy (let alone, CC-like). And certainly they bring more of the same via the law of attraction. Since all children cooperate, this is what dd1 is cooperating with. Children meet our expectations.

I can tap into healthy thinking here and there; and I think I've posted some of it already.

So, zansmama, I'm wondering what thoughts you have during your day. And I'm wondering if you agree with what I said above (the difference in our day-to-days being our thoughts/feelings), more to add, etc.


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## EnviroBecca

AmyMN, have you ever read _Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy_? It's a book about how the things you say to yourself in your mind can get you down, and how to train yourself to think more constructively. You seem pretty aware of this issue already, but you might find some good tips for changing your thoughts.

Butterflymom, does your son find it entertaining to watch you doing "useful" things, or only drawing and playing? Have you tried narrating what you are doing as you work around the house and making it sound really exciting? I've found that narrating can get my son enthusiastic about watching or helping me do something that, if I am not engaging his interest in it but taking an attitude of resisting him so that I can get my work done, is boring him to tears!


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyMN* 
First, I think it's awesome that you are living the CC ideal! Secondly, it sounds to me very CC-like.

I think the difference between your day-to-day living and mine (and others that struggle with this) could be as basic as our, the mamas, thoughts and feelings. For example, sometimes I think, "This is so hard. She's making things so hard for me and for us. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm afraid I'm going to be, or already am, just like my mom. Dd1 is so disappointed in me."

Those sorts of things, of course, aren't what I'd consider healthy (let alone, CC-like). And certainly they bring more of the same via the law of attraction. Since all children cooperate, this is what dd1 is cooperating with. Children meet our expectations.

I can tap into healthy thinking here and there; and I think I've posted some of it already.

So, zansmama, I'm wondering what thoughts you have during your day. And I'm wondering if you agree with what I said above (the difference in our day-to-days being our thoughts/feelings), more to add, etc.


Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I guess I don't have that fear of being like my mom (yet_ wait 'til I have a teen-aged daughter), I admire her skills with small children.
Also, I was lucky enough to grow up in a homeschooling family where the babies were worn and nursed through toddlerhood, so my continuum sense in that way was intact. My parents were however very authoritarian, and intensely religious, so I definitely don't emulate them in every way!
I guess I do have thoughts here and there like:" Loosen up. Ds doesn't have to do this just because you said so. He has the right to know the reason, and his argument may be valid."
So I guess my work is to loosen up, which I have in many ways...

Thoughts that I have during the day...
Usually a lot of " I don't want to: clean the house/wash the dishes/grocery shop, I'd rather just: play with ds/read a book/ hang out/ listen to music/ go see a friend"
Sometimes thoughts like: "I wish ds had his own tribe to hang out with 24/7, he plays alone so much."

And definitely " I'm so sick of dp hanging out all the time. He sure messes up the rhythmn of our day" and "Does he have to listen to that (&^% music ALL the $#@ time







: ??"
but I'm pretty sure you weren't talking about dp









Oh wait, positive thoughts too, like: "Wow, this great, ds has been playing with his bow and arrow outside naked with his friends for over an hour. Ain't _he_ a little savage!"
Or: "I love to do the laundry now. Doing it with ds is so much fun, and he's learning resposibility, too."
Also, "I love having a community that satisfies me and ds at the same time."( anyone that doesn't have a playgroup, try one out!!)

By the way, ds has gotten through that angry phase. thank god it was so short! Turned out he was worrying about weaning. (he had overheard some conversations) I told him that he will have nana as long as he needs to, and that took care of that!


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## root*children

Hey y'all! Hardly ever make it over to FYT and just saw this thread. Seems like there was one a year or so ago, that didn't go anywhere. Anyhow, just wanted to join in









I first read CC when preggo with DS1, 7 years ago, and we've been living it since. I do run a daycare in my home, which brings up certain issues. But fortunatly we live in a crunchy enough town that I can thrive in business with moms who are good with the CC ideas. My oldest is about to be 7 and is unschooled, and has pretty much found his groove. He's not really needing attention (he did go through a phase at about 5years that he seemed to need it alot), and finds good comradery in his little brother and the daycare kiddos (one of whom is also a 6yo boy).

Anyhow, I live in a neighborhood with several families of similar aged children, but none that we really hang out with. Most are schooled, or there clothes are too nice to play outside, etc. So, just because there's families around, doesn't mean instant community, unfortunatly. My DH grew up in a big community with lots of kids and really wishes that for our kids... one day perhaps!

Good to know y'all are here!

WuWei - are you the mama doing Explore & Discover?


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *root*children* 

WuWei - are you the mama doing Explore & Discover?

Yes. Are you local?







I see you are in Asheville!

Pat


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## root*children

Yup, I'm in Asheville... I get your emails from the yahoo group, but nothing's close to me, so we haven't got to join y'all







Oh well. I started a yahoo group here for unschoolers about a year ago, basically for my need to go explore the area with other families and for comradery (sp?), but lots of other families here had approached me about starting somethign to unite unschoolers. But I'm finding it a pretty frustrating group because everyone's *too* unschooly or something, nobody will commit to ANYTHING!







The phrase "herding cats" comes to mind. Oh well... it's a work in progress!

Sorry for the hijack! Always cool when I recognize someone at MDC from somewhere else in life


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *root*children* 

Sorry for the hijack! Always cool when I recognize someone at MDC from somewhere else in life









You mean all these posts on MDC are from Real People?!







:

Yes, it is like herding cats. Have you been on The Secret thread? There are several unschooling mamas looking to move to Asheville and they are such positive energy and they want to connect and create community. Captain Crunchy and KateSt. You can see around post #584 of this thread: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ghlight=stacey

They are wanting to manifest your unschooling group and you've already created it.









Pat


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## AmyMN

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama* 
Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I guess I don't have that fear of being like my mom (yet_ wait 'til I have a teen-aged daughter), I admire her skills with small children.
Also, I was lucky enough to grow up in a homeschooling family where the babies were worn and nursed through toddlerhood, so my continuum sense in that way was intact.

It looks like this is the difference right here: it could be my *fear* of screwing up, as well as having virtually no one with experience to model myself after (except books). [Interesting, whenever I thought of the possiblity of having kids--I never planned to have any eariler in life--I thought the teen years would be the most fun for me.







]

Also, your son has neighbor kids, right?

P.S. This is from the book _Giving The Love That Heals_: "You know you are face-to-face with the unfinished business of your own childhood when you respond with strong negative feelings to your child's behavior." (Hendrix and Hunt, 1997)


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## zansmama

AmyMN said:


> Also, your son has neighbor kids, right?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Arrggh, no, I wish! Our elderly neighbor has great-grandkids that visit once a week, but other than that I've really had to work to create a community. Especially since, where we live, it seems like almost all the kids are in school by 3 years old.
> Ds just turned 4, and we're already losing half of the playgroup to preschool next year.


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## AmyMN

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama* 
Our elderly neighbor has great-grandkids that visit once a week...

That sounds great. We know lots of like-minded families within about 10 miles from us. But just not in the neighborhood. I really want families in our neighborhood.


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## JohnnysGirl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama* 
... I've abbreviated so as not to take up too much space....

Not to be picky, but I don't see how this style would fit in with the Continuum Concept. It seems to me that Yequena children are A) playing with other children, or B) participating in adult tasks.
...

This is how I have viewed the CC "ideal", myself.
I'm curious to know what you all think of that, because it seems that a lot of us have very different interpretations.

I would love for my sons to be playing with other children all the time. I live in a small city apartment in a foreign country and the couple of other mommy friends I know I try to see nearly everyday as an informal playgroup, and every day I do take them to the playgrounds in the city where they can meet other kids. Of course this has to be supervised/structured time since it's in a city center and my older son gets so bored there because the kids are too young to entertain him, since children over the age of 2 in Finland are all in full time daycare, by and large....then he starts harassing the toddlers to get some reaction from the people around him. I do invite both kids to listen to descriptions of what I'm doing around the house when I'm 'working' around the house, and to participate in adult tasks. Still it just 'feels' to me like so much of the day is spent requesting entertainment...probably because I'm not a very thorough housekeeper by nature, that I don't spend more of our energies through the day keeping the house super clean and make sure the laundry never piles up, etc.... The reason I feel so drawn to CC philosophies is because I so WANT a tribe where there are OTHER ADULTS that my children can connect with and learn from throughout the day, and OTHER CHILDREN that they are with basically whenever they want, in a free environment (village type). We are working to create a little planned neighborhood with families with the same values as ours, but it's not a reality yet, and living in a cramped apartment in the city without regular access to others just leads to a cramped feeling for super-social DS1 and me. My younger son is just happy-go-lucky no matter what. We are moving next month to a row-house neighborhood on a lake in the forest, where there will be other children, and I'll simply have the space indoors and out to create fun all-day gatherings with all my friends & their kids (instead of just having brief meetings in city playgrounds and having to cut it short as soon as someone's kid is needing a nap or a meal or whatever) where the mamas can all be cooking and lending a hand with each others' children, and the kids can all be playing indoors and out and have more freedom, and if someone needs a nap there are 3 levels in our home with spots to nap on the uppermost and lowermost floors, so there's always a place to put a tired child where they can nap in peace. And of course I hope immediate neighbors in this new place will have kids that will enjoy being friends with mine. I hope my life takes a turn towards a more open/free CC rhythm in our new place, and I plan to work on my thoughts/attitudes also. And I think we will get an au pair so my kids can pick up another language and have another engage-able adult around all the time (and to offer a lovely opportunity for a girl who really wants the experience). I wish my husband and his family were more a part of our daily lives, but my workaholic DH and his isolationist relatives in town are not a fixture in our lives.


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## zansmama

Oh, Butterflymom, that sounds like it will be so beautiful! I wish we could work out something like that.
Hey, believe me, I know how hard it is to connect with like-minded families. At this point we only have one, maybe two that are really CC types.

I guess I was just mainly checking in: I know that I hold the Continuum Concept as an ideal, however much I may not be living it perfectly every day, but I wasn't sure if some of you had different views of what exactly that ideal _is_... Godd to see we're mainly all on the same page!


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## kxsiven

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Butterflymom* 
Of course this has to be supervised/structured time since it's in a city center and my older son gets so bored there because the kids are too young to entertain him, since children over the age of 2 in Finland are all in full time daycare, by and large

Hi! Are you talking about 'avoin päiväkoti'? In case not ... I don't know where you live in Finland but in my hometown this system works quite nicely and there are lots of older kids too - all the way to 5/6 years olds. This system should be available in every town here.
Also MLL(Mannerheimin lastensuojeluliitto)has so called Family Coffeehouses around Finland - over 300 if I remember right - chance to meet other parents and also there is all kinds of activities for kids. They might also know hot tips where to meet other parents and kids.


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## JohnnysGirl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kxsiven* 
Hi! Are you talking about 'avoin päiväkoti'? In case not ... I don't know where you live in Finland but in my hometown this system works quite nicely and there are lots of older kids too - all the way to 5/6 years olds. This system should be available in every town here.
Also MLL(Mannerheimin lastensuojeluliitto)has so called Family Coffeehouses around Finland - over 300 if I remember right - chance to meet other parents and also there is all kinds of activities for kids. They might also know hot tips where to meet other parents and kids.

Hello there! I'm in Tampere, where are you? I am talking about daycare which is called "päiväkoti" here in Finland, although I've never heard the term 'avoin päiväkoti' (I guess that translates to "key day-home" which doesn't make sense to me) before here in Tampere. Is it different than the regular daycare centers? I'm guessing it's a place where mothers can come WITH their children and they all have their own keys to come and go as they please and it's simply a physical space? That *Would* be great, but nothing like that exists in Tampere, as far as I know. Yes, all the 3,4,5, and some 6 year olds I know of are all there at these päiväkoti/daycares, all day, since school doesn't start until the year the child is to turn 7. We usually hang around playgrounds near a large daycare so that we can socialize with those groups of older children. However, my son is at an inbetween age where he's not really terribly interesting to the 4-5-6 year olds, when he does work up the courage to introduce himself (they have their little daycare cliques and aren't looking for newbie random boys to play with, seems like), and the younger children bore him. It's kinda sad to watch...but at least he has one friend that he's had since birth, his age, that he adores and gets to see regularly, but even he is in all-day daycare 3 days a week so we don't see him as much as we'd like. I'm also aware of MLL, but those family cafes are once a week for a few hours and it's such a small window of opportunity that we rarely make it there, and it's not happening in these summer months that are approaching, AND when I've been there it's again, all babies and toddlers, and after the age of 2 kids I know of get put into daycare.


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## kxsiven

Avoin päiväkoti = open daycare

And yes, you go there with your kids.

There is actually lots of stuff happening in Tampere, I don't know how much you understand finnish but go here;

http://www.tampere.fi/perhepalvelut/...ta/kerhot.html

Then there are groups that concentrate theatre or music;

http://www.tampere.fi/perhepalvelut/...keskukset.html

I'm jealous - you have much more activity there than we here(I'm in eastern Finland).

Also in summertime I know that these playgroups continue - they just go outside, to playgrounds.

You can PM me if you want translation help or anything else, I am happy to help.
(I actually did try to PM this but for some reason it did not work







: Hope you get this)

I will leave monday morning (I'm in rehabilitation due to my back surgery) and I won't be back until Friday evening!


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## JohnnysGirl

Oh thanks for the link--we've tried all those Tampere 'clubs.' My older wouldn't let me leave him there, and the ladies running it let me know that I wasn't welcome to stay with my baby, after once or twice where I just stayed there and watched DS1 play.


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## kxsiven

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Butterflymom* 
Oh thanks for the link--we've tried all those Tampere 'clubs.' My older wouldn't let me leave him there, and the ladies running it let me know that I wasn't welcome to stay with my baby, after once or twice where I just stayed there and watched DS1 play.










If the club is run by the city they cannot make you leave. They would be breaking the law(unless you were drinking or disturbing otherwise





















).
Here everyone is wellcome to these. There are lots of moms who bring their older kids to play and bring their baby/babies with them.
You should absolutely contact higher powers in the city and report if they try to make you leave - absolutely unacceptable and never heard that kind of stuff happening before 10x







: !


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## JohnnysGirl

Sorry to everyone for hijacking this thread, but one more comment about these open daycares. There are none in my town where you are welcome to come at various times and hang out with your kids, EXCEPT for a few 'family cafe' hours that are at most a 3 hour thing that happens once per week, so sort of hard to always make it to, when you have little ones whose schedules are unpredictible....also when I do go, there aren't many older kids because over the age of two they are nearly all in daycare institutions without their parents, with some exceptions of course. Then the 'clubs' which have events for different age children at different times, mostly these are like little art or music 'classes' that are mini 'daycare' chunks with paid women running the events and a dozen or two children in a small room (or back and forth between two small rooms) and I stay there with my kids because neither want me to go, and after a few attempts they always (at every one listed for the city I live in onthose links) let me know that this sort of behavior is only allowable for the first time or two that a new child starts the 'class/club' and perhaps I wouldn't be more comfortable trying these 'family cafe' afternoons? The other reason that family cafe hours (or up to 3 hours long events) are a bust for me is that most of the moms who stay at home, for any amount of time, are only so-so in English. Career moms are usually far more fluent in English, I've found. So I have this huge language barrier and I just feel desperate for some sort of true tribe of sisters where i fit in, all day every day, in a natural setting, with me and my children welcome all the time! Ok rant over.


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## AmyMN

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
AmyMN, it sounds to me like these classes likely will be just what your daughter needs to fill her desire for structured fun. Don't feel bad that you can't provide it!







No one person is everything to anyone. Learning from a variety of people will enrich your daughter's life. I bet that if a Yequana mama is washing dishes, and her daughter comes over clamoring that she wants to weave a rug, mama doesn't waste a moment feeling bad about not wanting to teach weaving (now or ever) but simply points her daughter to someone who is weaving.

Have you tried suggesting to your daughter that she take charge of whatever project she is asking you to take charge of? When I was around that age, I started spending a lot of time doing things like deciding who among my friends and family would play which character if I were casting a play of _Alice in Wonderland_ and drawing up the program...with enthusiastic ideas about actually making this production happen, but when I'd go find my mom and tell her all about it and show her the program (while she was baking bread, or whatever) she'd express great admiration for my careful planning and ask questions to help me further embroider my fantasy ("What color costume would each of them wear?"), and after a while I'd feel so satisfied with it that I'd go on to something else.









Thanks for this encouragement! I'm getting a lot of understanding about my situation, and will post about it soon.


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## EnviroBecca




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## kamesennin

.


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## APMomOfKimmyN-Maya

I recently read the book and it had a positive impact on me. I try to apply it to my life as much as possible.


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## yaM yaM

Hi, all!









It has been a while since I've posted to this thread, but I've been checking it regularly with interest. . consistently continuing my personal evolution while integrating Continuum wisdom.

I wanted to ask a question. I've searched the thread and can't find the word I'm looking for. Someone (WuWei, perhaps?) described the still awareness of subtle things - a sixth sense, almost - that the Yaquena and other indigenous peoples have that has pretty much evolved out of civilized folk.

I've been thinking about it for months, now.
Does anyone remember the word?

And TIA.


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## AmyMN

Quote:


Originally Posted by *May May* 
still awareness of subtle things - a sixth sense, almost - that the Yaquena and other indigenous peoples have that has pretty much evolved out of civilized folk.

don't know if this is what you're looking for or not


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## yaM yaM

Hi AmyMN.









You know, I found that too, LOL, but it doesn't contain the word. I'm remembering a very distinct word that meant what I described in my pp. The little excerpt of SN's that you quoted is certainly related to it, though.

Gosh. It's really just on the tip of my brain, but I'm not remembering it. Anyone know the word?

And thanks.


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## WuWei

I thought "attunement" also. The state of being aware and attuned without conscious attention.

Pat


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## WuWei

An online friend and her like-minded friends created a playgroup co-op. About 10 families rented a three bedroom house together, which they set up with different play areas for babies, toddlers, older kids. Each contributing shared toys. It has a fenced backyard and playset and they take turns, as an extended tribe providing childcare, to have a few hours off, or to stay and socializing. They can leave stuff there, have access to the kitchen, and can access it at all times. Eventually, there were so many families, they created morning playgroup and afternoon playgroup gatherings. But, it is another way to create an intentional community for your families.

Pat


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## yaM yaM

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
I thought "attunement" also. The state of being aware and attuned without conscious attention.

Pat


Hmm. Maybe this IS all it was (in the sense that there wasn't some esoteric term that I'm remembering). Or maybe I read it somewhere other than here.

Thanks for responding, WuWei, and for sharing that succinct definition .


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## Ellien C

you might look up "liminal consciousness" and an anthropologist (or maybe pscyh) called Sorenson. Scott Noelle talks about this alot on the CC list.


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## yaM yaM

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ellien C* 
you might look up "liminal consciousness" . . . .


THAT'S IT!

Thank you, Ellien C.


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## AmyMN

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
An online friend and her like-minded friends created a playgroup co-op. About 10 families rented a three bedroom house together, which they set up with different play areas for babies, toddlers, older kids.

This sounds really great. I think it would require a lot of trust to do something like this.

I think I would like something like this as a learning center (which this could be very easily) for families.


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## flowers

Amy I just tried to PM you but your mailbox is full!


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyMN* 
This sounds really great. I think it would require a lot of trust to do something like this.

I think I would like something like this as a learning center (which this could be very easily) for families.

Yes, my intention is to establish something like this for our community. We've been looking into grants and other issues associated with creating a community resource for homeschoolers and single mamas, specifically. My desire is to have housing/gardening co-op and parenting/childcare resources for the families. Thanks for the links! Your timing is terrific!!

Pat


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## AmyMN

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flowers* 
Amy I just tried to PM you but your mailbox is full!









I removed one PM to make room for yours.







And I also added the option to email me (thought it was already set up that way).


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## flowers

I just emailed you! You can ignore the other post in your community living thread.


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## Enudely




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## LionTigerBear

Hi everyone I am completely new to this. I am still on like page 10 or something, slowyl reading through, but I wanted to say hi!

I was also wondering if there were any CCers in my area. We are in Southern NH.

We are really excited about this. We are already really into the idea of unschooling and this is so in line with that it's almost like the same philosophy. I first read about TCC a few months ago when I had just brought our new baby home and DS1 was 2yo. We didn't read the book, but had a couple of articles reccomended to us. Changing some of our behaviors towards our toddler helped a lot. Then we changed his diet a lot too and that made a huge difference also. After we changed his diet, I think we kind of let this CCing slide. Also I had been trying to carry/babywear DS2 as much as possible, but it got really hard on my back/abdomen (DS2 is very large for his age; I am petite, and I have a bad back) so I kind of gave up on trying to do the CC thing. I mean, I still carried him a lot, but I also needed ot put him down quite a bit too. I think I carried him probably 50% of my waking hours. We cosleep as well.

I have never read the book, but I have read a lot of stuff on the website and a bunch of the posts here. When I found this thread in FYT and got all excited again!







As a SAHM I have been feeling so isolated (especially over the winter with no car) and like this way of living is very artificial, and this really confirms for me how I feel. However, I don't feel like getting an out-of-home job plus childcare would be any more natural, so I'll do what I can as a SAHM. I think going back to school this fall would be a move in the right direction. I'm going to see if I can find the book at the library.

Well the kids need me.







I'm excited to talk.


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## AmyMN

I recommend joining the Network, there's a database you can search for people nearby:

http://www.continuum-concept.org/membership.html


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## LionTigerBear

Hi Amy, thanks! I joined the database and also the listserve group.

Now I just need to actually read the book. I was going to go to the library today but they're closed. Maybe tomorrow.


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## EnviroBecca

EnviroKid is two-and-a-half now and often is very bossy and talkative. This morning, for example, he started off by ordering me out of bed (when I had thought I'd press the snooze button and lie there another 8 minutes) and then practically dragging me from the bathroom, reciting his desired breakfast menu over and over again. I made his breakfast, made mine, and had just sat down to eat when he had to be taken to the bathroom. Sat down again, took two bites, and he demanded a glass of water. Told him to ask nicely. He did. I got the water and resumed eating. EnviroDaddy came downstairs, very drowsy due to sleeping poorly, and EnviroKid immediately besieged him with demands to play, read stories, make him different foods (he'd finished the first food), etc., etc. EnviroDaddy started off calmly explaining that he'd play or read if there was time AFTER he had his breakfast, and making EnviroKid's food simultaneously with his own, but over the next ten minutes EnviroKid rapidly escalated his demands, increased volume, and used a more and more unpleasant tone, until finally he was bellowing, "GO AWAY!!! I DON'T LIKE YOU!!!" EnviroDaddy was very hurt and took his food upstairs. I was explaining to EnviroKid that he had hurt Daddy's feelings and that I was very disappointed with his behavior, when he pushed his glass of water off the table and it smashed. (This appeared to be an accident--he wasn't looking at the glass and seemed to bump it inadvertently--but there was no reason for him to be jutting his arm in that direction, and although he helps me wash the dishes on a regular basis he has NEVER broken one by accident before!) I said, "Oh no! This is a very dangerous mess! You sit completely still, and I with my longer legs will step over the glass and get the dustpan." He stayed still. While I was cleaning up, he kept asking, "Why did I break the glass?" and I replied, "I don't know; why?" Because of the delay, we needed EnviroDaddy to drive us to work instead of taking the bus. In the car, EnviroDaddy and I had a conversation (about the new car-sharing program in town, at a level EnviroKid could understand) that lasted one block before EnviroKid loudly interrupted to tell us that the gas station has no roof and ask us why not and when it will get a new roof. We have had that conversation almost every time we pass the gas station for the past three months, but not only did we have to have it again, when it was done he wanted to do it all over again. We tried to resume our previous conversation, but he began bellowing, "DADDY, NO!!! I'M TALKING!!! LISTEN TO MY WORDS!!!" so we gave up. Then he said nothing for a minute, so we tried to start talking, but he yelled again. Again, when we agreed to listen to him, he didn't talk. EnviroDaddy turned on the radio. "DADDY, NO!!! OTHER CARS ARE TRYING TO VROOM! THEY DON'T WANT THE MUSIC!" "They can't hear the music; it isn't bothering them; I want to listen to--" "NO!!! THE CARS ARE MAD AT YOU, DADDY!!!" On and on and on until he decided it was time to ask, "What street is this?" every 12 feet. I answered him every time, but he kept asking and insisted that one of the streets was not the one I said it was.







:

Americans say toddlers are just like this. But Liedloff says Yequana toddlers are calm and quiet and respect their elders. How do I get my son back on the continuum so he'll stop yelling at everyone and hurtfully rejecting his father (he's done that to me, too, but much less often) and being so phenomenally irritating?!?


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## AmyMN

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
Americans say toddlers are just like this. But Liedloff says Yequana toddlers are calm and quiet and respect their elders. How do I get my son back on the continuum so he'll stop yelling at everyone and hurtfully rejecting his father (he's done that to me, too, but much less often) and being so phenomenally irritating?!?

I didn't read every bit of your story. But I get the general gist. Why is your toddler capable of "hurtfully rejecting" his father? Isn't his father responsible for his own feelings, and centering himself? I think it's a huge burden to put on your child to blame him for hurting his father.

I think one big difference between the American parents and the Yequanna is that the Yequanna don't think their kids are out to get them. They believe children are innately good.

How would you feel with these two people:
1- one person thinks you're trying to hurt them, and is watching/making note of your every move
2 - the other person believe you are full of love and you have much to teach them

*Book recommendation:
Your Competent Child
by Jesper Juul*

Quote:

THE DAILY GROOVE ~ by Scott Noelle www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove

:: BE the Change ::

The following question is paraphrased from an email
I received...

My 5-year-old daughter invited a friend to
her birthday party, but the friend was still
upset about an earlier conflict between them
and said, "I don't want to go to your
birthday party!" My daughter was clearly
hurt by this rejection. How can I honor my
daughter's feelings without invalidating the
other girl's feelings?

Firstly, if you believe your daughter was hurt *by*
the rejection, you're giving power to the other
child's behavior, and you can't help either one of
them feel authentically empowered from that
perspective. So I would begin by reaching for
empowering thoughts like "That behavior has no power
of its own... We are all empowered from Within...
External conditions have no power over us; it's our
thoughts *about* conditions/behaviors that determine
how we feel... No one can stop me from thinking a
more empowering thought..." etc.

Once you feel centered in your own Power, you can
begin to see things more clearly. For example, you
might realize that your daughter's friend is simply
trying to reconnect with her personal power using
the only tools she can think of (i.e., the
"dominator" tactics modeled by our culture). In
other words, she doesn't want to hurt your daughter,
she wants to feel powerful and doesn't know how else
to connect with that feeling. Likewise, your
daughter wants to make the same connection and, for
the moment, believes that the rejection is causing
the disconnection.

So they both want the same thing, and now the
question is how can you best help them get it? As I
said above, it doesn't help to *join* them in their disempowering thoughts (often called "empathy" or "validation"), but neither does it help to resist their disempowering beliefs and tell them nothing is wrong (i.e., invalidating).

A third way is available, and it's much more
*subtle*. The part of you that wants to "DO
something about it" will not be satisfied by this
approach! Most of the "action" will take place on
the *inside*, so it may seem like you're hardly
doing anything at all.

The essence of this inner action is... making peace
with What Is.. being able to look beneath the
surface of their behavior/perceptions and *know*
that All Is Well, in spite of appearances.

Another way to describe it is "seeing the Light at
the end of the tunnel." Instead of seeing a problem,
you see the solution unfolding -- you *expect* them
each to find their way and connect with their
Center. They can *feel* that expectation, and that
feeling is all they need to begin reconnecting.

This whole approach is encapsulated in Gandhi's
famous advice to "BE the change" you want to see.
If you want your child and her friend to KNOW their
inherent powerfulness, regardless of anyone else's
opinions or choices, you've got to KNOW YOUR OWN and
then interact with them from that place of knowing.

Getting to that place of knowing is the inner work
of parenting -- and if you ask me, it's the most
important work you'll ever do as a parent. 

http://dailygroove.net/be-the-change

Feel free to forward this message to your friends!
(Please include this paragraph.)
Copyright (c) 2007 by Scott Noelle

"Inspiration & Coaching for Progressive Parents" http://www.ScottNoelle.com http://www.EnjoyParenting.com


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## EnviroBecca

: I wrote a long reply and lost it! I don't have time to think through again how to say it in a patient and tactful way, so I'll make this very brief:

AmyMN, please read my whole story before commenting further.

Yes, EnviroDaddy is responsible for his own emotional response. That does not mean EnviroKid should be able to say anything without consequences. Nor does it mean that EnviroKid did not choose his words out of a desire to hurt his father's feelings.

Why is it a huge burden to blame my child for hurting his father by screaming that he doesn't like him, but it's okay to blame me for causing my child's unpleasant behavior by holding negative expectations?

The fact is that I've worked very hard on having positive expectations of my child and turning them back to positive each time things go wrong. This morning, I continued to expect pleasant behavior from him and to think, "What can I do that will open a path for him to turn in a more positive direction?"

Quote:

How would you feel with these two people:
1- one person thinks you're trying to hurt them, and is watching/making note of your every move
2 - the other person believe you are full of love and you have much to teach them
This morning, my toddler was Person #1. He interpreted everything we did as another frustration to ruin his day. It's up to him to be Person #2 instead. I can expect Person #2, but MY EXPECTATIONS ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES THAT INFLUENCE THE WORLD, have you noticed?


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## AmyMN

EnviroBecca - Don't worry about being tactful with me...

I think we have different beliefs regarding children and how we want to parent. So I'll step back and let someone reply that's more of a match for you.

You could also try the gentle discipline forum...


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## LucyRev

It sounds to me like you are expecting your 2 yr old to behave like a rational adult. Toddlers test our boundaries. They want to know what is going to happen if they do 'x'. How else will they know that we love them unconditionally? They are figuring out absolutely everything, absorbing the world and their brains and emotions are going through crazy amounts of development. I'm sorry to say, I do think that is completely normal toddler behavior. A rough day, no doubt, but not uncommon.

If my daughter screamed at her dad that she didn't like him and to go away, he would most likely say, "wow you are so angry right now! I'm sad to hear you don't like me, I'll leave give you some space because I LOVE YOU." Then we would roll our eyes at each other and spy on her from the other room.







Holding a grudge against a 2 yr old isn't going to help anybody much.

I haven't read a whole lot of Playful Parenting, but it's on my list. Maybe that would be of some help too?


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## kindergirl77

I tend to think that children are more calm being outside than they are inside- and the Yequana were already closer to the continuum living their lives outside.
What you described about your ds interupting your conversation is exactly what my 3 y.o. dd does! It does drive us batty, but I realize that my dd needs to have time to talk and interact with daddy since he is gone all day. The yequana children also spend many hours with their parents helping them out with chores. Maybe there are more things that he can help out with? It seems that he is frustrated with not being able to 'play' but maybe what he really needs is some 'jobs' to 'help' out with. Because at this age, helping is just as fun as playing. '\ My 3 year old loves to help empty her own dishes from the dishwasher into her own drawer, she loves to 'take out the trash' with daddy, which basically means helping him push the rolling trash can out to the curb. She likes to help cook breakfast when I give her a whisk and I let her crack and stir her own eggs. I think 2 1/2 up they can start to do basic things to help out the family. It gives them pride and more of a sense of purpose.

HTH!
Therese


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## EnviroBecca

Quote:

It sounds to me like you are expecting your 2 yr old to behave like a rational adult. Toddlers test our boundaries. They want to know what is going to happen if they do 'x'. How else will they know that we love them unconditionally? They are figuring out absolutely everything, absorbing the world and their brains and emotions are going through crazy amounts of development. I'm sorry to say, I do think that is completely normal toddler behavior.
Oh, I know it's completely normal WESTERN toddler behavior! The reason I'm asking here rather than in GD is that I was hoping for a CC perspective and some ideas for guiding my child to a more Yequana way of being a toddler. (I'm going to have to reread the sections of the book that talk about toddlers...my partner was reading it and misplaced it, but he's certain it's still in the house...)

Quote:

If my daughter screamed at her dad that she didn't like him and to go away, he would most likely say, "wow you are so angry right now! I'm sad to hear you don't like me, I'll leave give you some space because I LOVE YOU."
This is more the type of response I would like EnviroDaddy to give. He says that in the moment, he often feels so shocked and hurt that he can't think straight. I know the feeling







but I think that "letting" a little child wound him like that puts quite a burden on BOTH OF THEM. He is letting fear take over so that he can't find room for love.









I haven't read _Playful Parenting_ either, but there was an interesting discussion in GD a while back about whether those ideas harmonize or conflict with CC. I think playfulness has a role for people of any age, so that can be CC. This morning, when EnviroKid was balking at getting dressed, EnviroDaddy got him cheerful and cooperative again by saying things like, "Woogly goo! Googly woo!" while lightly tickling him and then sort of working the clothes into the process. "Daddy! Say those silly words again!" So sometimes he gets things right.









Quote:

I tend to think that children are more calm being outside than they are inside
Interesting. How would that apply to this particular situation? Would I stop breakfast and take my kid outside?









He does like to play outside. He gets a chance when we're walking to and waiting for our busses each day and on the playground at childcare. Most evenings, either he plays on the sidewalk with the neighbor kids or we take him to a playground. Not very continuum-correct, in that all these places are partially paved and he's never unsupervised, but we live in the city and this is what we can do. (We've started to let him stay on the sidewalk for a few minutes while the supervising parent runs inside to get something, and that's worked out fine, so by next summer we may be comfortable letting him out to play without us for longer stretches.)

Quote:

The yequana children also spend many hours with their parents helping them out with chores. Maybe there are more things that he can help out with? It seems that he is frustrated with not being able to 'play' but maybe what he really needs is some 'jobs' to 'help' out with.
He does have some jobs. He's been helping wash dishes and do laundry since he was 16 months old. Now he also puts ingredients into pots, stirs things that are cooking, holds the dustpan while Daddy sweeps, and helps with other jobs when they're not too hazardous. (He can use a wire-stripper!)

But at breakfast time, he usually doesn't have a job. Most of the things he likes to eat for breakfast are prepared mainly by pouring them out of containers (cereal, etc.), and my experience with asking him to pour things is that about 10% of the time he'll spill them egregiously (lengthy cleanup, significant waste), 85% of the time he'll refuse to try because he judges the container to be "too big" for him to handle, and only 5% are successful...so I hesitate to ask unless it's something very manageable. I'll think about whether there's some other way he could "work" first thing in the morning....


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## PrincessDoll

AmyMN, I tried sending you a PM but your inbox is full. Is it possible for you to clear up your inbox as I wanted to ask you a question off boards. Thanks


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## rzberrymom

EnviroBecca, I'm a little late to this discussion, but I'm struggling with very similar issues with my 2 1/2 year old recently, and I've had similar thoughts about "western" toddler behavior. DH and I *think* we are able to narrow down what's bothering her though, because we can track what has changed for her in the last month. We just moved from a pretty quiet, calm city in Europe to a large, busy, chaotic U.S. city, and it has REALLY thrown her off. We used to live on a quiet, car-free street, we rode our bikes everywhere and there was little traffic relative to the U.S., there were lots of quiet, green spaces near our house, etc. She spent most of her day outdoors (in open spaces, not in structured play areas), and the rest of the time doing chores with me. It was still a pretty big city, but it was a city that felt more in tune with many of the CC ideals.

We've tried our best to re-create that life here in the U.S.--we didn't buy a car, we try to ride our bikes or the bus everywhere, we moved into a cohousing place that has a large, natural common space for kids (well, and adults too). But it's just generally louder in U.S. cities (large and small), there's more chaos, things are spread out and it takes much longer to get places, there are more activities here, life is more fast-paced, we're in more of a hurry.

And my DD is incredibly "off" here. It could just be the move, but I really don't think it is (she was doing better when we were with my parents for a week in a fairly rural area with a very relaxed pace). I would probably sound nuts to my family or friends if I said this, but I really think the CC-type of life made her very comfortable and she's now letting us know that this American lifestyle isn't right. Even if one doesn't live in a big city, we find it just SOOO much louder and chaotic here--the tv's and radios at home and in the car, the music and noise in stores, the going everywhere by car, the freeways, etc. Really, just being in the car is a big shock to the system--we've been car-free for 3 years, and being back has made me realize how jarring spending time in a car is.

Anyway, we've been experimenting with ideas.

- You mentioned moving breakfast outside--that's actually one of the things we've been trying! We have an open space and gardens behind our house, and we make a point to eat a meal out there on a blanket at least once a day and it does seem to calm her (even though we can still hear the traffic). We also spend a lot of time in the open space at other times during the day.

- Like others have mentioned, we've been trying to add even more responsibilities (I hate to use the word chores, maybe because it doesn't get at the potential social nature of the work) and that has been helpful--she helps with the cooking (but I think I could take that further and get her a real knife that's her size), she's pretty good at washing dishes by hand with either DH or me, she likes to have a squirt bottle (with just vinegar and water) and sponge and scrub the bathroom and kitchen with me. We have a group work-day at our cohousing, and we're probably the only ones who look forward to it (for the benefit to DD). But, I know DH and I can take it further--we're going to borrow a grain mill for her to grind wheat berries, we're going to try to make bread with her as often as we can, I'm starting a business from home (very part time) and I plan to have her help me with it. I know there could be more though.

- We're trying to cut down on our activities. I mean, the Yequana didn't get dragged across town to playgroups, they didn't drive to the park, they didn't drive to the grocery store (yes, I picked my house solely because I can bike to the grocery store), they didn't cram in a ton of activities on the weekend. We've noticed that we've already picked up our pace since we've been back in the U.S.--there's just more happening here, and it's so tempting to jump in. But, we've noticed that she's just a mess by the end of the day--I can't even blame it on being hungry or tired--it just seems like it's the pace.

I'm sorry this is such a novel! But, I wonder if others might have noticed these kinds of effects on their children. I don't consider my DD to be a sensitive kid--she just seems overwhelmed by what I imagine most American children are exposed to every day.


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## HotMama

How do you balance the classes and a slower pace? I'm working on that one right now...we homeschool (for now) and dd is in ballet (after 2 years of requests), violin (continuing from last year, now we all make music together as a family), gymnastics with a best friend who we do many cc like things with. We also volunteer at our community garden that supplys our food bank. All of these things feed us, but they also wear us out. I feel our activities feed us, and sometimes I get "full."


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## AmyMN

Was anyone here on Scott Noelle's conference call yesterday? It was really great, inspiring.


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## provocativa

nak- for things that adults pour, like cereal or cat food, little kids can use a small scoop. dd scoops the cat food and oats, etc. and doesn't mind scooping 10 times.


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## rzberrymom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HotMama* 
How do you balance the classes and a slower pace? I'm working on that one right now...we homeschool (for now) and dd is in ballet (after 2 years of requests), violin (continuing from last year, now we all make music together as a family), gymnastics with a best friend who we do many cc like things with. We also volunteer at our community garden that supplys our food bank. All of these things feed us, but they also wear us out. I feel our activities feed us, and sometimes I get "full."

Yeah, that's the kind of thing we're struggling with. For us, it's helped a bit to not do more than one non-CC sort of thing each day. For example, if I feel like we "need" to go to playgroup then I don't drag her to the grocery store and the post office on that same day. Instead, we go to playgroup and then spend the rest of the day at home, working, cleaning, baking, exploring outside and recovering.

But, we've also just cut out much of the activities that we previously "had" to do. I know that's not for every family though.


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## HotMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyMN* 
Was anyone here on Scott Noelle's conference call yesterday? It was really great, inspiring.

I wanted to, but Saturday was very full for us. I have been thinking about trying out a phone session, mainly about enjoying my role as stay-at-home mom without striving for something else.


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## AmyMN

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HotMama* 
I wanted to, but Saturday was very full for us. I have been thinking about trying out a phone session, mainly about enjoying my role as stay-at-home mom without striving for something else.

Hi, I highly recommend coaching with Scott. I think in talking to Scott you'd remember that you can strive for what you want all the while being a SAHM. Rather than experiencing "Lack" in your life, you can experience abundance. And I've been in both places, so I know exactly what you're talking about.


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## EnviroBecca

Quote:

We're trying to cut down on our activities. I mean, the Yequana didn't get dragged across town to playgroups, they didn't drive to the park, they didn't drive to the grocery store (yes, I picked my house solely because I can bike to the grocery store), they didn't cram in a ton of activities on the weekend.
True, in a sense: They didn't do many "leisure" activities or things that had to happen at specific times. But it sounds to me like they DID have a lot going on all the time, just because their daily tasks were so labor-intensive. Liedloff's descriptions of Yequana life include a lot of expeditions for hunting, harvesting, laundry, and bathing; the distance might be shorter, but I bet the time spent in transit was at least as much. Large portions of time at home were filled with activity: food preparation, weaving, home repairs, tool-making, etc.

So I don't worry much about a fast pace of errands and household tasks. We tend to spend Saturdays zipping around to the post office, library, stores, etc., but brunch at the diner and some time at the playground get worked in there too so that we have leisure times between errands. This is greatly facilitated by our living in a neighborhood where all these destinations are within one mile and all streets have sidewalks!

At home, we resist feeling guilty about getting our child involved in our chores instead of playing with him. Although he often requests play and gets annoyed when we say we need to work on things, once he gets involved in the work he has just as much fun as he does playing!

Speaking of which, last night EnviroKid made a big leap forward in dish-washing! He's been helping (for over a year now) by putting dishes into the soapy water and sloshing them around to loosen the food, but primarily he's been doing it to play with the physics of water while I do all the actual washing. A few months ago he began cleaning the sink before we start, but I'd always have to clean it after he did because he was so haphazard. Well, last night he thoroughly cleaned and rinsed the sink exactly as I would, put in the dishes, played for about two minutes...then picked up his dishcloth and the same kind of bowl I was washing, washed his with exactly the same movements, and placed it in the rinse sink. It was perfectly clean. I picked up a juice glass, he picked up a juice glass, and we washed them the same way. Suddenly the dishes were getting washed at double speed as we worked together!!! The only ones he wasn't getting clean were the spoons; he wasn't rubbing hard enough to remove the film left by yogurt, etc. I pointed this out and explained how to do it right, and he made a brief attempt, but then he started putting each utensil into my hand instead of the rinse sink when he was finished with it, and I thought, "Okay, he's reached his limit for now." Still, this is huge progress! I felt like I was working with a much older person all of a sudden.







He is 2 years 8 months.

Quote:

For us, it's helped a bit to not do more than one non-CC sort of thing each day. For example, if I feel like we "need" to go to playgroup then I don't drag her to the grocery store and the post office on that same day. Instead, we go to playgroup and then spend the rest of the day at home, working, cleaning, baking, exploring outside and recovering.
What makes at-home working, cleaning, and baking CC but grocery store and post office non-CC? When Yequana toddlers follow their mothers to gather fruit from the jungle (their form of grocery shopping) that's not a "drag"; it's an adventure with the tribe.

EnviroKid loves to go grocery shopping. I used to avoid taking him because it seemed more difficult than going alone and because I tend to go late at night to avoid the crowds...but I've found that when I take him, even though it means a late start to his bedtime routine, he still goes to sleep at about the same time because the shopping trip gives him a sense of satisfaction and contentment that helps him unwind faster during bedtime stories.

Our tantrum situation is better again. I guess EnviroKid and/or EnviroDaddy was just going through a tough stage.


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## zansmama

It can be so hard with little ones sometimes!
One thing on the constant talking and interrupting: I feel like our kids _need_ to talk constantly... but not with adults. Remember, the Yequena kids spent most of their time with a crew of kids, and conversations with adults were mostly"hand me that", or "feed the baby". So we try to get ds with other kids as much as possible for playing and conversations. He really does seem to be a lot more settled and less interruptive (is that a word?) when he's getting lots of "kid time".(by lots, I mean at least a few hours a day, preferably with mama also getting some "adult conversation time")

Saying "I don't like you"... I feel like this should be a basic human right. We don't always like each other all the time. I've responded to ds's assertion of this in a variety of ways. Sometimes I say, "I don't really like you right now either" (emphasis on the right now). Sometimes I say, "I'm sorry that you're feeling so angry right now.", or "well I like _you_". The important thing to me is that we be honest with each other, and keep the lines of communication open.
One thing that often works when he's feeling this disconnected sort of angry feeling is for me to stop whatever I'm doing, sit down on the floor with him, and say something like: " Hey, I don't like feeling mad at you, and I'm sure you don't like feeling mad at me.It just doesn't feel very good, does it?" (this usually get a "no")" How about we be friends again, and be nice to each other? It feels so much nicer than being angry and mean." Now, ds is 4, so this approach may be a little too intellectual for 2 1/2yo... but for us it always works like a charm. Just being open, honest, and treating him as an equal.
Speaking of equal, you guys could try taking turns with the talking. Daddy's turn, ds's turn, etc...


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
Yeah, that's the kind of thing we're struggling with. For us, it's helped a bit to not do more than one non-CC sort of thing each day. For example, if I feel like we "need" to go to playgroup then I don't drag her to the grocery store and the post office on that same day. Instead, we go to playgroup and then spend the rest of the day at home, working, cleaning, baking, exploring outside and recovering.

But, we've also just cut out much of the activities that we previously "had" to do. I know that's not for every family though.

I like the idea of cutting back... but to me, playgroup is one of the most CC things that we do...


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## rzberrymom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
True, in a sense: They didn't do many "leisure" activities or things that had to happen at specific times. But it sounds to me like they DID have a lot going on all the time, just because their daily tasks were so labor-intensive. Liedloff's descriptions of Yequana life include a lot of expeditions for hunting, harvesting, laundry, and bathing; the distance might be shorter, but I bet the time spent in transit was at least as much. Large portions of time at home were filled with activity: food preparation, weaving, home repairs, tool-making, etc.

So I don't worry much about a fast pace of errands and household tasks. We tend to spend Saturdays zipping around to the post office, library, stores, etc., but brunch at the diner and some time at the playground get worked in there too so that we have leisure times between errands. This is greatly facilitated by our living in a neighborhood where all these destinations are within one mile and all streets have sidewalks!

At home, we resist feeling guilty about getting our child involved in our chores instead of playing with him. Although he often requests play and gets annoyed when we say we need to work on things, once he gets involved in the work he has just as much fun as he does playing!

Speaking of which, last night EnviroKid made a big leap forward in dish-washing! He's been helping (for over a year now) by putting dishes into the soapy water and sloshing them around to loosen the food, but primarily he's been doing it to play with the physics of water while I do all the actual washing. A few months ago he began cleaning the sink before we start, but I'd always have to clean it after he did because he was so haphazard. Well, last night he thoroughly cleaned and rinsed the sink exactly as I would, put in the dishes, played for about two minutes...then picked up his dishcloth and the same kind of bowl I was washing, washed his with exactly the same movements, and placed it in the rinse sink. It was perfectly clean. I picked up a juice glass, he picked up a juice glass, and we washed them the same way. Suddenly the dishes were getting washed at double speed as we worked together!!! The only ones he wasn't getting clean were the spoons; he wasn't rubbing hard enough to remove the film left by yogurt, etc. I pointed this out and explained how to do it right, and he made a brief attempt, but then he started putting each utensil into my hand instead of the rinse sink when he was finished with it, and I thought, "Okay, he's reached his limit for now." Still, this is huge progress! I felt like I was working with a much older person all of a sudden.







He is 2 years 8 months.

What makes at-home working, cleaning, and baking CC but grocery store and post office non-CC? When Yequana toddlers follow their mothers to gather fruit from the jungle (their form of grocery shopping) that's not a "drag"; it's an adventure with the tribe.

EnviroKid loves to go grocery shopping. I used to avoid taking him because it seemed more difficult than going alone and because I tend to go late at night to avoid the crowds...but I've found that when I take him, even though it means a late start to his bedtime routine, he still goes to sleep at about the same time because the shopping trip gives him a sense of satisfaction and contentment that helps him unwind faster during bedtime stories.

Our tantrum situation is better again. I guess EnviroKid and/or EnviroDaddy was just going through a tough stage.










I agree with you about the activity. But for us, it's the noise, the cars, the music, tv, etc. that feels off. For example, a walk to a store in a mellow city or town is remarkably different than driving in a car to do multiple errands. Just being outdoors makes a tremendous difference, and the pace is naturally slower. I've lived in Kenya, Malawi, Ghana and the Netherlands, and I've never seen anything like the pace and noise in the U.S.

Anyway, it was just an idea of what may be bothering our young children. Glad that your situation resolved itself!


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## EnviroBecca

Quote:

Remember, the Yequena kids spent most of their time with a crew of kids, and conversations with adults were mostly"hand me that", or "feed the baby". So we try to get ds with other kids as much as possible for playing and conversations. He really does seem to be a lot more settled and less interruptive (is that a word?) when he's getting lots of "kid time".(by lots, I mean at least a few hours a day, preferably with mama also getting some "adult conversation time")
My son goes to childcare, where he spends 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, in a group of 5-20 kids 2-4 years old. He does play and converse with them quite a bit, but his teachers tell me that he talks to them (teachers) more than the other kids do. I think that's fine; when I was a kid, I often found adults more interesting than my peers. However, I do think it's important to spend time with other kids so one doesn't feel like the only small, less-competent person around! EnviroKid finds other kids very interesting and has loved being around them since he was just a few weeks old.

While Liedloff does talk about the kids running around together and not doing a lot of TALKING with adults, she also mentions kids (even very young ones) being involved in adult work. I like the idea that usefulness is for everyone and there's no point at which children who play turn into adults who work. So I'm leery of separating "adult time" and "kid time" very much. Not saying that's what you were aiming for, Zansmama...just that I think it's important to be cautious about artificial dichotomies of adult and child.


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
My son goes to childcare, where he spends 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, in a group of 5-20 kids 2-4 years old. He does play and converse with them quite a bit, but his teachers tell me that he talks to them (teachers) more than the other kids do. I think that's fine; when I was a kid, I often found adults more interesting than my peers. However, I do think it's important to spend time with other kids so one doesn't feel like the only small, less-competent person around! EnviroKid finds other kids very interesting and has loved being around them since he was just a few weeks old.

While Liedloff does talk about the kids running around together and not doing a lot of TALKING with adults, she also mentions kids (even very young ones) being involved in adult work. I like the idea that usefulness is for everyone and there's no point at which children who play turn into adults who work. So I'm leery of separating "adult time" and "kid time" very much. Not saying that's what you were aiming for, Zansmama...just that I think it's important to be cautious about artificial dichotomies of adult and child.

Wow, sounds like EnviroKid is around kids a lot more than ds. cool.

Yeah, what I mean by the distinction between kid &adult is that we tend to sit in a group of mamas, talking, sewing, snacking, and whatever, with the kids wandering in and out of our circle, but mostly running around in a loosely affiliated group: climbing trees, throwing rocks, wrestling, wading in the creek, or whatever. We interfere with their activities as little as possible, and we encourage them to come to where we are if they need us.
Now, at home, and whenever there is some sort of work to be done, I totally include ds in everything...
I'm recently becoming more aware however, that compelling him to do something is not CC. The problem is that dh is a pretty lazy fellow at times who would rather sit on the couch and watch TV than help with dinner. If ds follows his continuum sense and patterns on his father, he will prefer laziness to work as well (again, at times).
I have given him a "job" of clearing the table after dinner, but I'm not sure how this fits into the continuum... sometimes he does it without being asked, and takes great pride in doing so, but sometimes when I'm chasing him around to get him to do his job, I feel like it's not very CC. But if I do it after I've asked him to, I feel like that undermines the parental/ adult authority that seems so unquestioned, though perhaps unspoken, in the Yequena community.

Anyone?


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
I agree with you about the activity. But for us, it's the noise, the cars, the music, tv, etc. that feels off. For example, a walk to a store in a mellow city or town is remarkably different than driving in a car to do multiple errands. Just being outdoors makes a tremendous difference, and the pace is naturally slower. I've lived in Kenya, Malawi, Ghana and the Netherlands, and I've never seen anything like the pace and noise in the U.S.


Yes, yes, yes. I feel like cars are SO out of the continuum. I can see that depending on where you live, they may be necessary, but I feel so lucky to live in an area where we can bike and walk wherever we need to go.
The pace does make a huge difference, as does the ability to really see and experience the surroundings, and say hi to neighbors, or meet new people. Plus, ds can use his _own_ two legs, or bike, or whatever, unlike a car.

I do see the fastpaced, hectic lifestyle as wreaking havock with our little ones. We've tried to slow down as much as possible, even turning down fun invitations if it makes our day too crowded.
It's sort of like a rhythm, a constant rhythm. If it's a comfortable, liveable pace, perfect. But if it's too fast for stopping to pick a flower, or to chase a squirrel, maybe it's too fast. And if certain things speed up that rhythm, not good. When this happens, it throws ds off for a while.
One day for laundry, one day for baking, one day for cleaning, one day for shopping. These sort of weekly rhythms really help me keep it simple. Once that laundry's done, we can read on the couch for hours! And ds knows the routine, so he's comfortable and agreeable within it.


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## EnviroBecca

Quote:

I feel like cars are SO out of the continuum.








Even pre-kid, I felt that whenever I was in a car with another person: Either you are dragging someone else along with you, or you are being dragged; being a passenger is comfortable and effortless, but you have zero control over where you are going. A baby in arms (or sling) also has no control, but he's involved in the rhythm of walking and has the same point of view as the walker. Driving while my kid rides in his carseat feels strange and wrong to me. Riding the bus, OTOH, may get us places unnaturally fast, but at least we're together and can interact normally.


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## rzberrymom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama* 
I like the idea of cutting back... but to me, playgroup is one of the most CC things that we do...

Hmm, I've always thought of playgroups as rather un-CC--the ones I've been to have generally been children of about the same age (e.g. 2-3 year olds, plus a baby here and there) rather than the mixed-age groups that I've seen spontaneously arise in non-western cultures (or in the image of an old-fashioned American neighborhood where kids of all ages gather outside to play in the afternoon or after dinner). I've just moved into a new community, and my 2 1/2 year old follows the 6 year olds and the 9 year old everywhere--I've always wished a I could find a playgroup like that!

It's also always felt un-CC to me to have the moms and dads just sitting and talking while the kids play, as is the case at playgroups or at the park. A friend of mine likes to hold "working playgroups" at her house, where the moms bring vegetables to be chopped, cooking to be done, etc. I always thought that was so smart!


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## rzberrymom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama* 
Yes, yes, yes. I feel like cars are SO out of the continuum. I can see that depending on where you live, they may be necessary, but I feel so lucky to live in an area where we can bike and walk wherever we need to go.
The pace does make a huge difference, as does the ability to really see and experience the surroundings, and say hi to neighbors, or meet new people. Plus, ds can use his _own_ two legs, or bike, or whatever, unlike a car.

I do see the fastpaced, hectic lifestyle as wreaking havock with our little ones. We've tried to slow down as much as possible, even turning down fun invitations if it makes our day too crowded.
It's sort of like a rhythm, a constant rhythm. If it's a comfortable, liveable pace, perfect. But if it's too fast for stopping to pick a flower, or to chase a squirrel, maybe it's too fast. And if certain things speed up that rhythm, not good. When this happens, it throws ds off for a while.
One day for laundry, one day for baking, one day for cleaning, one day for shopping. These sort of weekly rhythms really help me keep it simple. Once that laundry's done, we can read on the couch for hours! And ds knows the routine, so he's comfortable and agreeable within it.

I really like that idea--I've been slowing things down for my DD's sake lately, but I haven't added really predictable housework routines. That's probably just what we need!


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## zansmama

So the table clearing thing... I've decided to take the pressure off of it's being ds's "job", ('cause I don't want work to be an unpleasant thing), and we've de-evolved it back into a co-operative effort. Working much, much better. I'm also involving ds more in dinner preparation, and so I feel like he's contributing sufficiently to where I don't feel like I'm doing all the work. Also, Dp is very open to clearing his own dish(es), so ds will be getting that good example.


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## smeisnotapirate

I'm going to be a TCC-minded momma, when the time comes. I was hovered over my entire life (and still am) and constantly have fights with mom over it.

I think many of the points made in the book are very valid and applicable to today's world, and I'm excited that it's written from a Western viewpoint, even though a lot of it is at the expense of the scientific method sometimes.


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *smeisnotapirate* 
I think many of the points made in the book are very valid and applicable to today's world, and I'm excited that it's written from a Western viewpoint, even though a lot of it is at the expense of the scientific method sometimes.









explain a little? I think I might know what you mean, but i'd like to be sure







.

Welcome, btw.


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## smeisnotapirate

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama* 







explain a little? I think I might know what you mean, but i'd like to be sure







.

Welcome, btw.

I like that it's a book that's written with the cultural assumptions of the Western world. Not that those assumptions are by any means correct, but when I read a lot of books about other cultures, it seems like the people who write them and I are on a different level in terms of cultural bias, yk? I can see her logical faults and weak points better because I understand them in myself, is I guess what I'm saying. Sometimes, I can't sort out what's what because the writer's assumptions are so far from mine (like being a cultural anthropologist, professional historian, etc.). (That was a terrible explanation, but it's as good as I can do







.)

I also think that for all its faults, the book indirectly has a lot to say about living in a world full of fear. All we hear about are things that are out to get us: toys, people, educators, THE MAN, etc. I think there's something very primal to be said about giving our kids more rein to be kids - to get into things, fall off things, and make messes and so forth (within safe boundaries), as well as giving them time for inter-generational interaction, within and outside the family.

I think more interpersonal interaction (is that redundant?), less fear (or fear that controls our lives), and fewer planned events will help to counteract the frenzied pace of American life, so I guess that's what I meant by being a TCC-minded momma.

(I just re-read this and it sounds SO disjointed. Sorry.







)


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *smeisnotapirate* 
(I just re-read this and it sounds SO disjointed. Sorry.







)

no, no, no, I get what you're saying. Cultural assumptions and all that. Makes sense! I guess I have a similart feeling about the book myself.


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## ann_of_loxley

I am bumping this!
I havnt read through all the post...theres quite a lot! hehe
I wont make this long though hehe....im about 50/50. Its kinda hard for me to sometimes distinguish between TCC and AP if I am completly honest! A lot of what we do is both in the end though I think I did start off more TCC than AP!
When I first read the TCC - it was hard for me to see how it would 'work' in our society. There is a lot of stuff in it that I feel is not practicle for 'this day and age' simply because it is based on one tribes way of living and we are not that tribe, or a tribe...or very communal at all in our living (unfortunatly I must say!). But a lot of it makes complete sense and its those aspects of it that we practice and I will deffinatly be looking into more when we have another child (as I discovered it a bit late!







)...Things like babywearing for example. I still wear my son in a sling when he wants to be held. For me this seems to be one of the core values of TCC - as its one of the main things that helps with child/parent relationship/bonding/trust and what make the rest of it 'work'. For example, I have never been big on 'baby proofing' - my son can safely get up and down the stairs, I dont have to worry about him playing with knives inappropriatly, when we go for a walk I dont have to worry about him running out into the road, etc I dont think any of this would be possible if we didnt have that strong bond/relationship/trust! I am not claiming to be a perfect parent or that we dont have any 'issues'...and I dont want this to sound judmental but I have no friend that are either TCC/AP at all in the slightest - and yet out of all my friends I have been the only one who has managed (so far! hehe) without 'toddler reins' and who doesnt freak out if thers a hot cup of coffee/tea on the table in small child reach. Which may seem like small things, but to me they are very big things to be proud of - and I can honestly see the TCC links! It works for us!


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## Cello

Hi Everyone,

I am new to the CC idea, although I did AP(but later as I didn't find out about it







) with my little one. We have been very child focused, and we want to change. I read the book, but I'm still not sure how to "repair" what we have done. He has never been 2 daycare, just hubby and I and grandparents, which has been great and a challenge considering we work full-time. He has been mostly around adults, and less often the kids he sees are at the playground. What is the best thing to do at this stage, co-sleep? We are moving toward a family centered life, rather than child centere, and including him. I am just not sure what to do with him since we didn't do the arms in phase, etc.... I read through the thread, but didn't see much for people that wanted to try to make any amends they could starting a bit later in life....


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## EnviroBecca

Cello, how old is your child? My top suggestion is to get him involved in helping you work around the house and yard. Here are some ideas, and there's been some discussion of work in this thread.

I would focus less on "making amends" than in doing things right at this stage.


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## Cello

He is almost two. Attachment parenting is starting to show: he thinks the world should revolve around him. I am trying continuum, but my parent spoil him rotten, which I am working hard to change since he spends so much time with them.

I looked at the website, and at 2, I really don't know how much of it I can do with him, but I will try.

Thanks for writing back!


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## jbie

i love this... i've just read the book and am still processing..

but i was hoping to find some insight, as to why my APed 10.5mo has never crawled (he is at the cruising stage now, though) or been interested in doing so. why he hates lying on his back of tummy for even a second for diaper changes. and why he is so excessively high-energy and squirmy.

?

for example, we'd be out on a shopping trip where he'd be in a front-pack carrier the whole time; i'd be talking to him, involving him in touching our purchases, etc.
why then, on return to the car, would he refuse to sit in his car seat, but want to stand and bounce and release pent-up energy for a good 30mins? why didn't that energy dissipate in bodily contact with me while shopping?

He WAS in-arms in infancy a great deal, and when he wasn't would then be sitting beside me. and we do have a very boring household (usually just him alone at home with a single carer), and i am a very still and often motionless mama (my activities are all carried out sitting down).


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## smeisnotapirate

I can't begin to tell you why jbie, but I do know that I went straight from sitting to walking, no crawling at a year. My mother was desperate because she was thinking I was a bit of a late bloomer. Don't get too worried. He'll walk when he's ready.

My brother on the other hand, crawled well into his first year. My mother also worried about that. I think he was just smart enough to realize he could get places faster by crawling than by trying to learn to walk.


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## EnviroBecca

Cello, as a developmental psychologist I think children do to some extent see themselves as the center of the universe for a while, no matter how they've been parented!







The best you (or the Yequana) can do is gently show them that other people are equally important and let their instinctive desire to be part of the group draw them toward cooperation instead of domination. You can allow your child to express his personal opinions without allowing him to run everything...although it is a fine line, and I struggle with it myself!

I have a couple of core concepts picked up from my parents that are useful to me and might be useful to you, which I know I've posted before but maybe not in this thread:

*We're all people together.* Children are more like adults than they are different. Many of our experiences can be shared. Including your child in what you do and appreciating the things your child notices enriches life for both of you. When you can relate to what your child is feeling (whether it's the warm silky mud squishing between his toes, or the frustration of being unable to do everything he wanted to do before bedtime) it's much easier to accept some of his behavior and guide the unacceptable behavior in a more constructive direction. All people enjoy being able to do things, so people who know how to do a thing naturally teach it to people who don't know. Of course adults, having been around longer, do more teaching than learning, and children are the reverse, but everyone has skills and ideas to share.

*We Do This.* It is not necessary to explain WHY we do everything. Children want to be part of the tribe and to do what We Do just because we do it. Simple declarative statements like, "We hold hands in the parking lot." often get a child to cooperate. Don't assume you owe your child an explanation for everything; if he needs one, he'll ask!


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## jbie

okay, here's a question about having your child take part and be alongside your daily activities/work (eg grating manioc).

sounds great in theory, but what if the work i'm doing is a bit fragile, and his little hands make a mess of it?

eg knitting - he makes me drop stitches, and tangles the yarn. or sewing - he wants to touch the moving needle on the machine!, or keeps crumpling the fabric as i'm cutting.
and yes, i've tried distracting him with other things. but he's the most interested in what _i'm_ working on.

i suppose it would help if i was less anal, and accepted that things get messy w a baby.

but what activities do you do, that your baby (mine's 10.5mo) can take part in too?


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jbie* 
okay, here's a question about having your child take part and be alongside your daily activities/work (eg grating manioc).

sounds great in theory, but what if the work i'm doing is a bit fragile, and his little hands make a mess of it?

eg knitting - he makes me drop stitches, and tangles the yarn. or sewing - he wants to touch the moving needle on the machine!, or keeps crumpling the fabric as i'm cutting.
and yes, i've tried distracting him with other things. but he's the most interested in what _i'm_ working on.

i suppose it would help if i was less anal, and accepted that things get messy w a baby.

but what activities do you do, that your baby (mine's 10.5mo) can take part in too?


Okay, i think I see your problem here: he needs small tools of his own. (just like the tiny manioc grater) Get some yarn just for him, and let him play with it while you knit your own.
Ds is 4 1/2, and wants to sew, but hates the embroidery hoop, and has a hard time with stitches. So I give him scraps from my bag, and he sews them all together, sort of like threading beads. So I am happily working on My project, and he on his. We're both working together, but he's not messing me up.
Machines... I don't know. Me, I'd save it for naptime, but I'm neurotic about non-natural things (i.e.: I'm not sure if it's in the continuum.)
And, jbie: of course he doesn't want to sit in a carseat! Babies want to be in constant movement! Tied to you, he is content, and then he wants to be active, maybe creep around or whatever.
As far as the fussing on the belly, I felt like ds at that age wanted so badly to move, that he would scream in frustration once he got up on his hands and knees. ( this was actually at 4-5 months) by 5 1/2 months, he was crawling. Now, if I had read TCC at that point, I probably wouldn't have put him down there until more like 9mos, but my point is, he needed to feel that bit of frustration in order to feel the desire to creep which led to the effort that resulted in learning. Just like later, we had to learn to let him fall down when he was learning to walk, so that he could find his own balance.

Btw, clearing the cobwebs from my brain, i remembered that ds would fuss and squirm to get down at this point, and resist being picked up once he was on the floor... hence my putting him down and not picking him up.

just some ideas from TCC unschooling land where all by himself ds has begun to write letters!!







and make words!!! by osmosis or something, because I have never sat down with him to teach him any of that, only answered his questions.


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## EnviroBecca

Jbie, at that age my son would help me put away the clean diapers: I have a plastic tub that's like a large laundry basket with solid sides and sturdy handles. I'd set it in front of the open dryer door and have the baby sit in it. Then I'd pull the diapers from the dryer onto the door, and he'd pull them down into his lap and around him. (If he threw one, I'd say calmly, "No, put them in the basket," and bring it back. He didn't throw them much.) I'd carry him and the diapers upstairs in the basket, set it a few feet away from the cabinet where we kept the diapers, and sit on the corner of the bed facing the cabinet. The baby would hand me diapers, and I'd fold them and put them away. He liked deciding which one would get put away next! Of course, sometimes he'd want to just wallow in the diapers for a while, so I'd sit there reading or something until he was ready.

He also would rub the outside of the bathtub with a damp cloth while I was scrubbing the inside of the tub.


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## riomidwife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ann_of_loxley* 
......... A lot of what we do is both in the end though I think I did start off more TCC than AP!
........ For example, I have never been big on 'baby proofing' - my son can safely get up and down the stairs, I dont have to worry about him playing with knives inappropriatly, when we go for a walk I dont have to worry about him running out into the road, etc ..... of all my friends I have been the only one who has managed (so far! hehe) without 'toddler reins' and who doesnt freak out if thers a hot cup of coffee/tea on the table in small child reach. !

So can you describe any specifically that you attribute all this to? In other words, is there anything specific that you can describe in your parenting that you think precluded your child from running outin the middle of the road, grabbing the hot tea, etc.?

so curious!


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## HotMama

Originally Posted by ann_of_loxley View Post
......... A lot of what we do is both in the end though I think I did start off more TCC than AP!
........ For example, I have never been big on 'baby proofing' - my son can safely get up and down the stairs, I dont have to worry about him playing with knives inappropriatly, when we go for a walk I dont have to worry about him running out into the road, etc ...... !

Well, that sounds a lot like like my first daughter, but yikes! My youngest is quite the adventurer, and, my oldest has not read CC and has picked up a great deal of her "parenting" skills from our surrounding culture...she'll chase her to keep her out of the street (which is when she'll run for the street), and unless I want to clean up that cup of hot tea, I'd better put it very high up...my youngest is also a climber. Did I mention that I got rid of the toilet locks someone gave us, thinking why would anyone need these? Well, we have now bought and installed toilet locks for our second, because it was just too gross for me. All those things I thought were my fine parenting?







:


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elriomidwife* 
So can you describe any specifically that you attribute all this to? In other words, is there anything specific that you can describe in your parenting that you think precluded your child from running outin the middle of the road, grabbing the hot tea, etc.?

so curious!

See, it's all about expectation and trust... Having been through this myself, I feel like I can answer. By _not_ constantly calling to ds to "be careful", I have allowed him to develop his own instinct to take care of himself. Once I indicated to him that something was "hot", he knew enough to keep away.
(The book really goes into all of this in detail: I highly reccomend it!







)

Honestly, ds has much fewer accidents than his friends, because he takes care of himself. He never has the scraped knees that I had at his age, and he's really trustworthy. He has learned the way his body works, and what doesn't work: not just learned to take my word for it.

The street, however, this was difficult for us... I don't feel like it is really part of the continuum. However, areas of danger _are_, so dp and I modeled our "fear" and carefulness of the street, and ds followed suit pretty quickly. By the time he was 2 or so, he could be trusted to run ahead as we went for a walk and stop at the end of the block to wait for us. I did not hesitate to tell him that a car would crush him, just as he might be told in the jungle that a crocodile would eat him alive.


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## EnviroBecca

Quote:

In other words, is there anything specific that you can describe in your parenting that you think precluded your child from running outin the middle of the road, grabbing the hot tea, etc.?
The question wasn't addressed to me, but I'm going to answer it.









But first, I want to acknowledge HotMama's point that some children tend to be more daring/less observant/less responsive to direction than others just because of their inborn personalities. This is an idea Liedloff either rejects or doesn't mention because it's inconvenient. Any technique of shaping children's behavior is going to appear more effective on those children who start out with a tendency to behave in the desired way. Similarly, a desired behavior is more likely to be eliminated by parents' expectations that the child is not capable of it if that child is one who doesn't tend toward that behavior anyway.

I carried my baby near my eye level and brought him along to most of my activities. He was able to watch what I did, to look where I was looking, and to feel when my muscles were alert or calm. I think this helped him to understand that we do not walk into traffic without pausing to assess safety, that we hold hot drinks carefully and blow on them before cautiously sipping, that we hold knives by the handle and point the blade away from ourselves. These all are things he did "right" the first time he did them on his own.

I do my best to trust my child's self-preservation instincts. I often thought of the visual cliff as I watched my baby turn back from edges and go another way. I do tend to be nearby and ready to catch him when he tries something new, but usually he realizes when something is unsafe and steps back before he falls. Thus, when he says he cannot do something that I think IS safe, if possible I accept his judgment and help him go around it instead of insisting that he try it.

I avoid explaining what might go wrong. Sometimes for my own peace of mind I ask him to correct a potentially hazardous situation, but I use We Do This mode. For example, if he's placed his glass of juice at the very edge of the table, a typical American parent would say, "Don't put your juice so close to the edge; you'll spill it." I say, "Please move your juice away from the edge." If he asks why, I do explain, but in terms of odds of accident in general rather than certainty that he'll screw up: "If somebody bumps it and it's right on the edge, it's more likely to fall off the table, which means the juice would go all over the room and the glass might break. Glasses and dishes are safer near the middle of the table."

I treat my child like a competent member of the family as much as possible. He uses the same dishes we do: They're not fancy or super-fragile, but they are ceramic and glass, and a serious impact will break them. He has sippy cups for travel (as do we) and may use them at the table if he likes, but we never gave him sippies by default. Thus, he learned to drink from a real glass without spilling or breaking it. He gets to explore almost any object that interests him. If it's dangerous, I demonstrate and verbally explain how to handle it, and then I watch him until I'm convinced he understands.

A recent example: He was interested in a candle which I had been burning when I was alone in the room. He asked me to light it again, and I did. I said, "Remember, don't put anything in the fire or even close to it." He said, "Of course not. Then it would catch on fire." I returned to what I had been doing, which after a moment involved leaving the room. I'd been gone for about one minute when he yelled for me to come back. He said, "I got afraid of the fire, but I couldn't go to you because somebody has to stay with the fire all the time." I said, "That's right!" We agreed that he would blow out the candle, and he did.


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## Leilab

I've just come to find this thread and am loving the conversation. Thanks to everyone for sharing. I haven't gone through the whole thing yet but am making my way little by little. I just read TCC a couple of months ago (after putting it down a couple months before that) and am still grappling with the "child-centered" part and the "trusting dd when she's being adventurous" (and I'm afraid she'll fall/hurt herself) part of the concept.

I like how I feel and how I act now that I'm not being so child-centered (I'm not snappy with dh now







). I don't resent short naps and feel like I am getting things done that I had been putting off (like knitting and sewing) and am making healthier lunches because I now understand that dd wants me to do interesting things.

I'm interested to know how you have transitioned your thinking from being afraid that dc is going to fall/hurt themselves to being able to trust their self-preservation instinct? DD, now 12 months old, has learned how to climb onto a footstool and stand on it but I don't think she knows how to get down. If we're around when she's on the stool, she usually relies on us to get her down. She already knows how to get off the bed safely, but I'm still nervous and I feel that I'm hovering and expecting her to fall.

Also, what kind of things do dh's/dp's do with dc that aren't child-centered? (Besides washing dishes and making a meal)

TIA.


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## Leilab

I've just come to find this thread and am loving the conversation. Thanks to everyone for sharing. I haven't gone through the whole thing yet but am making my way little by little. I just read TCC a couple of months ago (after putting it down a couple months before that) and am still grappling with the "child-centered" part and the "trusting dd when she's being adventurous" (and I'm afraid she'll fall/hurt herself) part of the concept.

I like how I feel and how I act now that I'm not being so child-centered (I'm not snappy with dh now







). I don't resent short naps and feel like I am getting things done that I had been putting off (like knitting and sewing) and am making healthier lunches because I now understand that dd wants me to do interesting things.

I'm interested to know how you have transitioned your thinking from being afraid that dc is going to fall/hurt themselves to being able to trust their self-preservation instinct? DD, now 12 months old, has learned how to climb onto a footstool and stand on it but I don't think she knows how to get down. If we're around when she's on the stool, she usually relies on us to get her down. She already knows how to get off the bed safely, but I'm still nervous and I feel that I'm hovering and expecting her to fall.

Also, what kind of things do dh's/dp's do with dc that aren't child-centered? (Besides washing dishes and making a meal)

TIA.


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## EnviroBecca

Quote:

I'm interested to know how you have transitioned your thinking from being afraid that dc is going to fall/hurt themselves to being able to trust their self-preservation instinct?
I didn't really "transition" because I started out believing in his instincts...but I strengthened that belief by watching (not hovering; observing) when he was trying something new and seeing how he would pull back when he felt unsafe and try a different way.

Quote:

If we're around when she's on the stool, she usually relies on us to get her down.
What happens if you're not around? If she calls for you to come and get her down, then she's fine: She knows her own limits and is unlikely to get hurt.

If she did fall off the footstool, how bad could it be? A small fall can be very instructive. I've never allowed my son to fall when I could catch him, but he has fallen a few times when he got careless (got used to being able to do something and stopped paying attention to doing it right) and I wasn't close enough to catch him, and each time it's made a big impression on him so that he becomes more careful about doing that thing safely. For example, when he pulls a chair in front of the kitchen sink so he can climb up to wash his hands, he pushes the front edge of the chair squarely into the indention where the cabinet doors don't stick out as far as the drawers next to them, because falling demonstrated to him that the chair can slide out from under him if it's not blocked by the edge of the drawers. I had tried to explain that to him a couple of times and correct his positioning of the chair, but he blew it off until he slipped and fell. He wasn't hurt at all, just upset.

Quote:

Also, what kind of things do dh's/dp's do with dc that aren't child-centered?
Take child on errands: grocery store, post office, etc. Pick up dead leaves in the yard. Trim shrubbery (let child help pick up the trimmings). Do laundry. Dust (give child a duster). Rinse and crush containers for recycling. Draw or paint. Make things with Legos.


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## ann_of_loxley

Quote:

So can you describe any specifically that you attribute all this to? In other words, is there anything specific that you can describe in your parenting that you think precluded your child from running outin the middle of the road, grabbing the hot tea, etc.?

so curious!
Someone above has already answered this (zansmama) but I will confrim it! hehe

It is deffinatly about expectation and trust. Actually this is really hard to describe! lol...I think the book did a much better job!... Hmmm....(I may have to get back to this)...just seeing now though that EnviroBecca did a great job as clearing that up lol)....


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## zansmama

Things to do:
Live your life!
Housework is standard, of course, but so is going out for coffee with friends, taking walks, visiting, doing errands, exercising, painting, singing, etc, etc.

The idea is: you're living your life, and dc is joining you. Soon enough they start creeping around and then running around doing their own thing, but always orbiting mama.

the footstool:
maybe you could show her how to get down, once? Don't let her begin to _expect_ help, because then she may get to the point where she doesn't even _try_ to do things by herself. ( I know a lot of kids like this) She should always try first, and then ask. Oh yeah, I always wait until ds specifically asks for help, and then try to make it as minimal as possible.


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## KnitLady

I'm so glad to find this tribe! I just finished the book and really enjoyed it. I'm trying to apply the principles to our lives.

I have a few questions though. We go to church weekly, and there is no nursery. It is a small gathering and lasts about an hour. I end up spending a lot of time in another room because DS gets bored and wants to get down and run around and be loud. This would be extremely disruptive, so I take him in the other room. I generally hold him and talk to him quietly, or look at a book with him, but I don't like to let him down in the other room. I don't want him to think that he can just be loud during church, then he gets to go to another room and play. This is frustrating for both of us. He often cries because he wants to get down, and I feel frustration because I don't get the spiritual enrichment I go for.

There are several other children there, but they all sit relatively quietly! I seriously think this is a result of the ever-present pacifier which DS doesn't take (and I never wanted to encourage, I prefer to let him nurse for his sucking needs). We do take a few quiet toys (books, magna-doodle, stickers, crayons, etc).

Today, I was thinking about the children in the book that remain quiet while inside. The children mentioned are even younger than DS. I do feel that he is capable of sitting (and playing in my lap, or on a sofa beside me) for an hour. But, I don't know how to do this! He is almost 22 months old, and so far, has only sat for the full hour about three times his whole life.

Any suggestions?









The other question I have is about asking him to do things. I am following the advice on the CC website about only asking something one time and if it isn't done, then calmly (without anger or comment) doing it myself (example: picking something up, or throwing something away). This is working wonderfully. If I ask him in a calm, confident way, 9 times out of 10 he will do it. However, I'm not sure what to do if I ask him to do something that has to directly involve him. For example, if I ask him to put on his shirt (which he can do with a bit of help), what do I do if he says no and refuses? He is strongly opposed to getting dressed, wearing a diaper, brushing his teeth (with help), and getting into his carseat. These are all things that eventually have to happen!

Thank you so much in advance!


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KnitLady* 
However, I'm not sure what to do if I ask him to do something that has to directly involve him. For example, if I ask him to put on his shirt (which he can do with a bit of help), what do I do if he says no and refuses? He is strongly opposed to getting dressed, wearing a diaper, brushing his teeth (with help), and getting into his carseat. These are all things that eventually have to happen!

How do you believe the tribe addressed these issues? That is how we do it. (Or don't.







)

Pat


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## zansmama

Ah, church. *flashbacks of sitting still for hours* (I was a pastor's kid)

But that's not related to the subject. Ahem, sorry.
I don't know, I haven't been in that situation with ds.... I didn't have to keep him still at that age. If I really, really had to, I could get about 15 minutes by whipping out some surprise nanas. (Other than emergencies, I usually did 'don't offer, don't refuse'.) I don't know if this is really in the continuum, it seems like kids should be able to wander around if they want to... maybe you could leave him with a babysitter? Or maybe you could start up a nursery with some other mamas?

i think the difference with the yeqena kids is that they are capable of sitting quietly _when it feels right_, which ds has always been able to do as well (such as when I'm sewing, or telling him a story, or when he's tired, or just cuddling together). But if it doesn't make sense to them, if it's just some grownup talking and talking, they probably won't. I mean, nobody takes toddlers to business seminars, kwim?
But the basic need is to creep, and run, and explore.


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## KnitLady

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
How do you believe the tribe addressed these issues? That is how we do it. (Or don't.







)

Pat

Well, I'm really not sure how they handle it. I assume if something really has to be done, they just do it. However, I also assume that they don't have as many "have to's" as we do in our society. Their children can go without clothes while they gather food. My DS has to wear clothes at the grocery store.







I do remember the book mentioning a sharp outburst at undesired actions, but I'm really not sure how to do that and get across the message that it is the action and not DS that I'm unhappy with.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama* 

i think the difference with the yeqena kids is that they are capable of sitting quietly _when it feels right_, which ds has always been able to do as well (such as when I'm sewing, or telling him a story, or when he's tired, or just cuddling together). But if it doesn't make sense to them, if it's just some grownup talking and talking, they probably won't. I mean, nobody takes toddlers to business seminars, kwim?
But the basic need is to creep, and run, and explore.

That makes sense. I guess I'd assumed sitting quietly would feel right to him because it is what everyone else is doing. I thought he would get the message that sitting quitely would be the socially accepted thing to do.


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## EnviroBecca

Good questions, KnitLady! I wrote about my son's church behavior on my site a while back, and you can read the whole article if you like, but here are the parts relevant to your question:

We've often had to step out of church when he's been making enough noise to distract people, and when he was a baby I very much accepted it, but gradually I've been firmer in my expectations of appropriate behavior. These days I stop right outside the door, get down to his eye level, explain very firmly what he was doing that was unacceptable, and ask whether he is ready to behave properly. If not, we sit quietly in the parish hall for a while until he is ready. Sometimes I feel angry that he's done such an inappropriate thing (he doesn't step on books anywhere else!) or that my worship has been interrupted, and I try to manage that anger by praying to open myself to God's peace.... It's been a long time-maybe a year-since he's responded to stepping out of church by continuing to be rambunctious. When he was a baby, especially when he had first learned to crawl, rambunctious behavior often meant that he was having an active spell right this moment and needed to "blow off steam" instead of sitting quietly; it wasn't his fault that it happened to coincide with my scheduled worship time. I got used to that and didn't notice that he wasn't doing it anymore, that now being removed from church quickly "resets" him to more appropriate behavior.

In my experience, 21 months is about the right time to start showing outright disappointment when he's disruptive and speaking firmly about correct behavior. He is not developmentally capable of really seeing things from others' perspectives ("I should be quiet so everyone can hear the pastor") but that's coming, and you can encourage it to develop by pointing out his effect on others, and he DOES understand by now that another person's sad or angry behavior can be caused by his behavior ("Mama is frowning at me because I'm being noisy").

When you have to go into another room, after explaining that you're disappointed in his behavior, drop the disappointed/angry tone but don't make it a fun time for him. Take a bored, waiting attitude on the outside (while inside, you use this time for calming prayer) and don't engage with him except to say that you'll go back into church when he's ready. Project: "There's nothing to do in this other room. We want to go back into church where all the action is. We can go as soon as you're ready to behave appropriately." You could let him get down from your lap (physically burning off some energy may calm him after a moment) but don't play with him, don't read to him, don't interact except to remind him what you're waiting for.

Zansmama wrote:

Quote:

I don't know if this is really in the continuum, it seems like kids should be able to wander around if they want to... maybe you could leave him with a babysitter? Or maybe you could start up a nursery with some other mamas?
I think it is continuum to expect children to stay with the group for important ceremonies and to be respectful of the adults' attention to the event. What would be un-continuum is to expect them to participate: stand and kneel at all the right times, really listen to what's said, etc. They can think their own thoughts or play, as long as they don't disrupt.

Using a babysitter or nursery separates the child from the tribal activities. A nursery run by parents who really would prefer to be attending church rings pretty false with me. However, if there are older kids/teenagers who want to play with younger kids during the service--or if there are some adults who find more spiritual growth in being with kids than in attending worship--that's great, akin to the Yequana kids with babies on backs running around and playing while their parents work.

KnitLady wrote:

Quote:

I thought he would get the message that sitting quitely would be the socially accepted thing to do.
He will!







He probably does already. It just takes time for that message to consistently override his need to run around and make noise. Keep at it, and over time he'll slowly increase his willingness to do what everyone else is doing. My church's service is an hour and a half to two hours long, and my son (almost 3) makes it through the whole thing about 50% of the time. That's not to say he sits still and doesn't speak, but he is still and quiet ENOUGH that I feel he isn't excessively disruptive.

*About asking him to do things:* First of all, don't ask; politely TELL him to do it. The question inflection makes compliance sound optional. Instead of, "Would you please pick up that towel?" say, "Pick up the towel, please." This makes a big difference to my kid and to my Girl Scouts.

Quote:

For example, if I ask him to put on his shirt (which he can do with a bit of help), what do I do if he says no and refuses?
"You can do it yourself, or I will help you. One...two...three." Do it. Remember to speak in a pleasant voice rather than a threatening one. I'm sure the Yequana don't use this exact technique, but I think it is a natural outgrowth of "ask once, then do it yourself."


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## WuWei

Does anyone recall incidents in *The Continuum Concept* where a child is ever "made to" do something they don't want to do? I don't recall "making a child comply" being observed in the tribe.

Pat


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## KnitLady

Becca: Thank you so much for your post! It is very helpful and I enjoyed the article. I think you are right that he is starting to understand because I can't think of any other situation where he would sit quietly in my lap as long as he does in church.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
Does anyone recall incidents in *The Continuum Concept* where a child is ever "made to" do something they don't want to do? I don't recall "making a child comply" being observed in the tribe.

Pat

No, I don't. However, I really don't know how to get my DS's teeth brushed, diaper and clothes on, and get him into his carseat without making him. I hate making him do things, and I feel badly about it. What do you/would you do in these situations?

With teeth brushing especially I have tried everything I can come up with. I've tried songs, reading books about brushing teeth, looking at pictures of friends and family as well as strangers brushing their teeth, letting him brush my teeth, having a stuffed animal brush his teeth, etc. He has tooth decay and I can't let this slide. The games and such work for a day or two, but not long enough. I feel like I'm out of options.

As far as getting dressed goes, I let him go without clothes at home. I do have more success with getting him dressed if I start walking to the car, but this doesn't always work, and he has to wear clothes in the car. It's cold and I don't like the carseat straps to dig into him. The straps aren't too tight, but they are angled to rub his thighs if he isn't wearing pants.


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KnitLady* 
No, I don't. However, I really don't know how to get my DS's teeth brushed, diaper and clothes on, and get him into his carseat without making him. I hate making him do things, and I feel badly about it. What do you/would you do in these situations?


Here are an old post of mine from this thread about this issue: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...&postcount=328
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...&postcount=335

This one regarding tooth brushing myths: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...20&postcount=8
Diaper changing issues: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=812543

Carseat issues: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...hlight=carseat

HTH,
Pat


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## AmyMN

Scott Noelle's "Unconditionality" article has helped me so much with the car seat issue. Here's a snippet:

Quote:

An "Unconditional Surrender"
I remember a particularly stress-filled evening when my first child, Olivia, was two years old and she refused to get in her carseat. We were on our way home after an all-day excursion and had just stopped at a gas station. My wife and I were exhausted and we just didn't have the energy for a struggle.

But old habits die hard, and I struggled anyway, eventually trying to force her into the carseat. And she - bless her fiery heart - would have none of it! She fought with every fiber of her being to uphold her dignity, until I finally gave up. I surrendered. But I was not defeated; I simply realized that I could have a much better time doing anything other than fighting my beloved child.

So I relaxed and told her she didn't have to get in the carseat. I decided that I was willing to wait patiently in that parking lot until she was ready to buckle up and go, voluntarily. I told myself, "I don't need conditions to change in order to feel peace now," and I looked for something - anything - more pleasant to focus on.

My solution was to rest my chin on the steering wheel and indulge in the simple pleasure of people-watching - there were plenty of interesting people coming and going about the gas station. (This isn't rocket science! Just reach for any thought that brings relief or feels better when you think it.)

Meanwhile, my daughter, feeling the shift from resistance to freedom and lightness, dawdled and tinkered with the various knobs and buttons in the car for about three minutes. Then she climbed into her carseat and let me buckle her in without protest.

I believe this rapid return to peace was, in part, due to the fact that I was willing to wait "forever" - meaning, I was totally focused in the present. In other words, my unconditionality gave her the space and time she needed to find her own way. And with that sense of freedom, we both found a way that was in accord with our shared desire for peace, freedom, and respect.


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## AmyMN

I know this phrase comes up so much when people first learn about TCC. I've found rather than focusing on "not being child-centered", I focus on living in the present and in enjoying the moment. I wouldn't say "I've arrived." But when I'm in touch with the present, I can stop with ease to sit on the floor to play games or to read a book or to dance with my kids.

It's been a joyful way to live.


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## zansmama

Hmmm.... I'm not sure on how I feel about the consensual living thing. On the one hand, I don't want to power trip on my kid, on the other hand, we're people, too, and I don't want him to run the show. I don't really want to run the show either... maybe that's what the idea is?

But unfortunately, I work part-time, and that is the one non-negotiable part of ds' life. He comes with me some of the time ( though if he didn't want to, I guess I would arrange something else), but there is a definite "hurry up, we have to get there!" at times. Also, if I've made arrangements to meet someone (usually involving a friend of his) I don't like to leave them waiting, and I want ds to learn that respect for others as well.

As far as the church thing... I agree that kids should be expected to be quiet and respectful of adult events. I'm just not so sure that means having to sit quietly. I imagine in a tribal situation they would be free to wander in and out of the ceremony (or maybe have to stay out), and even go frog hunting if they wanted too. They would not be constrained to remain with the adults. I mean, by the time they're walking, they're pretty much running around in their own little tribe anyway. It would be their own curiosity that would draw them to the adults, and they would probably have a somewhat awed and respectful attitude.

Just another though on the "forcing" issue: I think it's okay for kids to have to understand that sometimes (not often) we just have to do... whatever it is. Sometimes I have to clean up vomit when I don't feel like it. Sometimes ds wakes me up in the night and I rub his back even though I'd rather be sleeping. We do these things for each other, for various reasons. If ds makes a mess, he's expected to clean it up. Now, maybe I'll do it with him to make it more enjoyable, but he's not going to run out the door to play with the neighbors until it's cleaned up.
I really try to structure our lives so that he is as "free" as possible, and not living a controlled life, but I think it is specifically in TCC that obedience, in the few instances where it is required, is expected. Telling rather than asking is HUGE, I agree. And ds is welcome to "tell" me as well. I think the big thing here is that: as opposed to many people I know







, the kids _don't_ spend their day being endlessly told what to do. They are pretty much free to do as they like. But! when an adult says "hand me that" or "feed the baby a banana" it is expected that dc will comply. Does this make sense?
Hence, ds spends his day running around the house doing whatever, helping, playing, etc. Then, when mama says: "get your coat on, we're going out", he finishes what he's doing, and gets his coat. (Yeah, not 100% of the time, but pretty often). If he doesn't I get his coat and help him on with it. Now, maybe I'm just lucky, but 99.999% of the time, there's no real resistance.

When ds does strongly object to something, we stop and talk about it. Usually, it's a pretty simple reason. ("Oh, you want to play with the truck? Why don't you bring it, then?") My respect for him and his feelings is reciprocated by his respect for me and my needs ("I really need to go get some thread"). If it is not ("I don't care what you need: I don't want to go _anywhere_") I treat that as what it is: rude, thoughtless behavior. (or sometimes I try to sweeten the deal














)( "If we go get _my_ thread, we can stop at the park on the way home for _you_")

One good rule of thumb that works for me is to ask myself: what would I do if ds was an adult in this situation? It really helps me to remember that we are equals in most ways (okay maybe not intellect)


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## KnitLady

Amy, Pat, and Zansmama: I REALLY appreciate your input. I'm very much still "finding myself" as a parent and trying out different things and seeing what feels right and what my DS responds well to.

Pat: Thank you for the links. I've been reading all the threads throughout the day and plan to learn more about CL and perhaps join the yahoo group.

Amy: I really liked the article you quoted. I tried that this evening and DS climbed into the car, then the carseat, then sat down and was happy as could be while I buckled him in. I'm certainly not saying he'll do that every time, but I am going to work on changing my attitude about it.

Zansmama:

Quote:

One good rule of thumb that works for me is to ask myself: what would I do if ds was an adult in this situation? It really helps me to remember that we are equals in most ways (okay maybe not intellect)
I really like that thought. Thinking of my DS as a full-fledged person is really important to me. On a related note, does it drive anyone else completely nuts when the hostess at a restaurant giggles and says, "Two and a half people tonight?" or worse, just plain, "Two?" Ummm, my DS is a whole person. Sorry for the mini-vent!


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## rmzbm

Just subbing...I followed the link from the thread in GD.

We're a happy continuum family, cool to have a tribe! (Where've I been?







)


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## Cello

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
Just subbing...I followed the link from the thread in GD.

We're a happy continuum family, cool to have a tribe! (Where've I been?







)


I am really trying not to be a helicopter mommy, but sometimes I feel my ds is the only kid who is so out of tune with this surroundings/safety. At the play gym in town, he climbed onto a tall matt, and walked backwards. I ran just in time to catch him -- but he never even tried to stop. Or he intentionally falls on his knees if he wants to be picked up rather than walked himself-- so his legs are riddled with bruises b/c he just lands on them hard anywhere, asphalt, carpet, hardwood, you name .....sometimes I wonder where I went so wrong.

btw, i loved your writing becca! great stuff.


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## baturay

well, i've been pointed to this great link in this thread and i really seem to belong here. i'm going to borrow a copy of the cc and read it, because it seems to be in-line with how we are parenting.

glad to know this thread!


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## PrincessDoll

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KnitLady* 
The other question I have is about asking him to do things. I am following the advice on the CC website about only asking something one time and if it isn't done, then calmly (without anger or comment) doing it myself (example: picking something up, or throwing something away). This is working wonderfully. If I ask him in a calm, confident way, 9 times out of 10 he will do it. However, I'm not sure what to do if I ask him to do something that has to directly involve him. For example, if I ask him to put on his shirt (which he can do with a bit of help), what do I do if he says no and refuses? He is strongly opposed to getting dressed, wearing a diaper, brushing his teeth (with help), and getting into his carseat. These are all things that eventually have to happen!

Thank you so much in advance!


KnitLady, I wanted to add a point about the getting dressed part. We went through that stage and I struggled a few times as a parent and acted in ways that I would have liked to do differently. I have since come up with a method that works. We begin our transition early enough to provide him the opportunity to take his time in getting dressed. He knows that we get dressed if we want to leave home and go to another place and until that happens we don't leave. Instead, I get a book and settle in to my chair and tell him that if he wants to stay, that's fine. I'll just read my book. That usually gets him motivated to get dressed.

The same with Scott Noelle's advice regarding carseats. That's actually the method I employ, I don't care to set up battles so I try to give myself extra time to deal with my son's very real need to have some say in what goes on in his life.

And about diaper changes, I have in the past wanted to change a soiled diaper and was met with resistance. So, I allowed him to sit in it and I would question him on if he feels uncomfortable with the feces on his skin or if his skin is getting itchy. Then when he asks to have it changed, I have said, I thought you didn't want to get it changed. I was ready to change it 5 minutes ago but you weren't and now I am doing something else so you need to wait. After a few rounds of that, he changed his tune.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
Does anyone recall incidents in *The Continuum Concept* where a child is ever "made to" do something they don't want to do? I don't recall "making a child comply" being observed in the tribe.

Pat


WuWei, I thought the same thing but then I realized that this is the CC_*ish*_ thread, which means we are all trying to apply the CC principles on some level in our lives. That doesn't mean we will all be pure CC in our parenting. I stopped posting here for a little while after being met with adversity regarding my need for taking control as the parent (but EnviroBecca was so much more eloquent in her discussion of this very real need for myself as a parent). I am glad that EnviroBecca is here in this thread; although this is an internet forum and hence we never really know if our words impact another person, I for one come back to this thread time and again because of what she adds to the conversation 

I think that there should be a new thread started for those who follow pure CC in their parenting as there seems to be a divergence on this issue now within this thread and I don't think it is entirely fair to either side of the issue. I don't feel pure CC is right for my family, but we completely are CC_*ish*_. However, if I was pure CC, I wouldn't want to read about those that are straying from the CC ideals. So I do understand the plight of those who don't understand those of us who are ok with putting our foot down with our children and pushing an issue with them.


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## WuWei

Not sure who posted it, but the idea that different children (or parents) need different approaches sounds likely, to me. I suppose anything can be tweaked to sound like Continuum Concept, but I think that tweaking often waters down what Continuum Concept is; a child given unconditional freedom-- and that would include total freedom from putting our foot down with our children and pushing an issue with them.

If folks are looking for CC advice/discussion, then that is what will continue to occur on this thread.







There are many ways to embrace the CC within our culture, THAT is where the discussion and nuances are abundant!

Real situations, real struggles with real openness to seek alternative perspectives and strategies are how I learn to move toward CC. Our culture has many obstacles to being closer to our natural states and all those benefits emotionally, psychologically, intellectually and mentally. We are all working toward more awareness of how that process can unfold in our lives. I hope that you feel welcome to discuss that process. It doesn't mean that folks are going to all agree.







We certainly can only glimpse a fraction of a situation from a posted query. Assume that folks are wanting to help, and "try on" some ideas which on the surface seem counter-culture.









Pat


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## Devaya

i'd heard about the CC and been intrigued by it, and now reading your posts i'm even more so...i started off following some of the principles without even thinking about it, just AP style baby-wearing etc...but i'm fascinated by this concept of not being 'child-centred'.... i realise i have already been falling into that. its so hard not to when the culture is 'baby-ga-ga' around me.

what i was wondering is, if u practice these concepts, do you still involve toys? i mean, one of the principles of the book according to her website (i havent y et got hold of a copy of the book so bear with me!), is that western style child rearing is 'inadequately stimulating' babies with toys, inanimate objects, as opposed to just participating naturally in our everyday lives. So is there a place for toys and what have some of you CC -practicing moms out there done about this?


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## EnviroBecca

Thanks, Princess Doll!

WuWei wrote:

Quote:

I think that tweaking often waters down what Continuum Concept is; a child given unconditional freedom
Sometimes I feel like you must have read a different book than I did!







Yes, CC gives a child fewer conditions and more freedom than 20th-century-mainstream-Western parenting. But the book is full of examples of Yequana parents expecting their children to follow their lead or be left behind.


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
But the book is full of examples of Yequana parents expecting their children to follow their lead or be left behind.


Yeah, I agree... but maybe there's something in that: children _can_ be left behind. In our culture there's a lot of fear around that; as there is around a lot of other things that some of us have chosen to be authoritative about. If we don't bathe our children and then send them to school, we may have some problems with CPS, for instance.

And yet, I do feel that there is an expectation of obedience that is spoken of in the book. Rarely invoked, yes, which is important . But included in the Continuum.
I guess the question could be: how does one react to _not_ being obeyed? Do I just do it myself? Do I discuss it with the child? Do I get angry? This may be where many of us differ.


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaya* 

what i was wondering is, if u practice these concepts, do you still involve toys? i mean, one of the principles of the book according to her website (i havent y et got hold of a copy of the book so bear with me!), is that western style child rearing is 'inadequately stimulating' babies with toys, inanimate objects, as opposed to just participating naturally in our everyday lives. So is there a place for toys and what have some of you CC -practicing moms out there done about this?

We have toys, yes, but we try to keep them as simple and open-ended as possible. And we have lots of small-sized tools and housework items (broom, dustpan, baskets, etc) for ds to imitate , or join in with, our work.


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## EnviroBecca

Zansmama wrote:

Quote:

I do feel that there is an expectation of obedience that is spoken of in the book.








Liedloff theorizes that children obey because their parents expect them to obey and because the continuum leads them to assume that older people know what's right. I think there's a lot to this. When my son is doing things we don't want him to do, sometimes it's true that I (or his father) am EXPECTING things to go wrong; we WANT things to go right, but we feel pessimistic about it happening, and somehow we're conveying that to the kid, who then fulfills our expectations.

About toys: We have quite a few (mostly gifts) but have done our best to avoid "interactive" toys that encourage unimaginative, object-focused play. We have mostly toy vehicles, animals, people, and buildings. EnviroKid also plays with many everyday objects, either using them as intended (example: old telephone) or using them for imaginative purposes (example: bath-mat used as carrying bag by a Grinch stealing our stuff). He also enjoys helping us work while also playing (example: pouring soapy water over dishes soaking in sink).


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
(example: bath-mat used as carrying bag by a Grinch stealing our stuff).









Hey, the Grinch keeps stealing our stuff, too!


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## Theloose

I just read TCC, got to about page 12 of this thread, realized there are 40 pages







: and so I'm just going to post.

Dd is 13 months, and I'd skimmed enough of this thread when she was smaller and before she was born that I feel pretty good about most of the choices I've made in raising her. What I'm most curious about right now is how to transition from baby to toddler. Most of the stuff is fairly straightforward - she does her thing, I do mine. She needs me, I'm there for her.

She still naps on me. I'm totally fine with that. But I see no end in sight... The only way I know to get her to fall asleep for a nap is to put her in the wrap and walk/sing her to sleep - it usually just takes about 5 minutes, if that. If we try to nurse to sleep in bed, it takes about 2 hours of quiet playing before she's ready to try sleeping. I'm really curious what everyone's take is on this - just continue wearing her until she's not interested in naps anymore? She'll magically outgrow it and be ready to sleep on the bed at some point, just like all the other milestones? Is it something I need to actively pursue? - even I'd rather take my naps on other people as well! Maybe I'm just expecting her to sleep too much?


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## AmyMN

Hi, whoMe,

I believe in looking at your relationship with your child as a partnership. You work through everything as it comes, with the goal of joy and peace for both of you.

So there isn't really any set way to do things, there is no techniques, there isn't anything externally (outside of your own internal growth) for you to actively pursue.

Enjoy this time while your dd still wants to be worn in a sling. Live in the moment just as she does.

And sign up for Scott Noelle's Daily Groove messages (see my signature line).

Amy (who always seems to write just what I need to read myself)


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## Leilab

I've had the same thing happen. My dd is also 13 months and ever since she was a newborn I've had her in a carrier for her daytime naps and until recently, have had to wear her to help her fall asleep at night. When she was little, I couldn't put her down or she'd wake up and we'd start the whole thing over again. So, I just decided not to bother and have her do naps on me... until she got bigger and I could take her out of the carrier and put her in bed. Most of the times I would nurse her back to sleep but it wasn't much.

I recently found out I am pregnant and have so little energy (still in the first trimester). Our dd had been falling asleep on me (for bed) at around 11pm for the longest time. Sometimes she's get into a week or so of earlier bedtimes (on her own) and we'd just follow her instincts.

At some point, before bedtime, she went up to the bathroom and started patting on the bathtub so we gave her a bath. Every night, we'd just follow her lead. When she asked for a bath, we'd get it ready. I still would put her in a carrier and walk around, picking up toys and she'd just fall asleep. With the pregnancy, I needed a little more rest than that so we started asking if she was ready for a bath at 6:30pm. If she signed back "bath" then we'd do it, if not, we'd wait a bit and ask a little later. After the bath, she and I lie in bed, nurse and sing until she falls asleep. So far it's working. She's in darkness which seems to help her body realize that it's night time and the whole process helps me get more rest.

hope that helps.


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## Periwinkle

bump for octobermoon


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## anitaj71

I saw the cc thread in books and came here to comment on it . . the woman has no children and sleeps with her monkeys. When I bought the book I was expecting something very different . . .


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## zansmama

woohoo! missing this thread, i am!

I've really been working on the expectation thing, and ds is SO responsive!

Let me tell you, at 5 years old, i really feel like I'm reaping the benefits of years of CC parenting. Ds is polite, thoughtful, helpful, independent, inventive, and very physical. (okay, polite, thoughtful, and helpful about 80% of the time.







)
Dp and I were just talking about this today. We really like our little guy, and enjoy homeschooling him and hanging out. And so much of that is the way he's been raised. He's not overly dependent, he's not aggressive, he's responsive... again, most of the time: he is only 5, after all.
Also,, I think a lot of it is the way we look at ourselves as parents, how much pressure we put on ourselves, or not.


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## octobermoon

i found you cc thread...thanks to some help from periwinkle....







!

well i am working my way through reading the posts....can't wait.
subbing!


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## jrose_lee

Hi!

Okay. I think I need some help. Ds is 2.5 . I read CC before ds was born and totally agreed. We have tried to raise him this way. It was very easy as a baby....babywearing, cosleeping, taking him everywhere etc. It was pretty easy as he grew into toddlerhood. He was always one to come with me and was always attached to me all around the house. He would help me with various tasks etc.

Fastforward to now......
all I hear all day is "mama come play with me"
he doesn't seem interested in helping me with any tasks
he seems to be unhappy quite a bit

Okay....I really should point out that we have just recently moved a couple months ago. This move was really hard on ds. We have moved 3 times over the past 2 years. We have had no chance to make any community or tribe. This last move was our last one, but it really seemed to hurt ds the most. Sigh.

Ever since this past move, ds cannot stand other children. He literally cries his eyes out if a child comes over. He is afraid they will take his toys and he feels they are in his space. This makes it very hard to meet people. When we are at parks, occasionally he will want to leave or tell me he wants the other kids to leave.

Ds has always had open imaginative toys. Right now, he has blocks, trains, train table and tracks, trucks and wooden figures of animals and people. Also, a small house he can go in. Does he have too many toys? Has he just gotten too used to playing with me constantly because he doens't have a sibling and hasn't played with other children?

I've met some nice people here in Chicago, but it's tough to get to know them because ds can barely tolerate being around other kids and people lately. I suppose we have been "loners" (lived in rural Alaska for the last year) so maybe he just can't handle it?

I don't know....this move seemed to really throw it out of wack for us. 4-5 months ago I would have said that we were doing fine.

Ds is not a very adventurous kid. I have NEVER made it seem like he should not climb or do things. I have always been very trusting of his decisions.

Has anyone ever raised a "spirited child" or "highly sensitive child" in the CC style? Has this worked? Ds tested extremely high on this test on this page and it's helping me understand him better. I believe he got a 21 on the questionaire.
http://www.hsperson.com/pages/child.htm

I hope some of this made sense. I really feel that we have gotten away from something around here. Ds is bored senseless unless I am sitting at his train table with him. He is uhappy unless my life is revolving around him.

He can't stand my dh right now. He hardly lets him be near him. He has always chosen me over dh (I am the stay at home parent) but it is reaching extremes now. "Dada, I dont' want you to be by me. I don't want Dada to do this...I don't want Dad to do that"

I don't want ds to sound like a brat. He is a very intelligent, sweet kid. Gosh- I really feel like moving around so much really messed things up for us.

Any ideas?


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## jrose_lee

Okay. I've been reading some articles on the website for CC.

Maybe most of our troubles that have happened since we've moved are because we've become to child centered. Ugh! How did this happen!?

In Alaska, we didn't have many things to do etc. Ds and I just were around the house doing things, cleaning, hanging out, having our neighbor over etc. We read books and such, but I didn't ever "play" with him and his tiny amount of cars.

Since we got here, we have gotten more cars and trains and an entire train table for ds to play with. He wants me to play with him constantly and I had given in to that (maybe I felt guilty about moving him here)

Also, now that we live in a busy city we have started doing all sorts of "normal" kid type things. We go to the park all the time. We tried to do some playgroups (which ds hated because the kids were grabby and mean). Mostly we play around the house, read books, play trains, go for walks with him on his little bike, go to the park, store. We got all these different passes to go to kid places......nature museum, aquarium, field museum, etc. I guess as long as I like going to those places, we could still go.

What can I do differently? Tomorrow, when he's constantly asking me to play, how do I change this? What do I say? "I am going to ____. You are welcome to come and help me or bring a toy over here" Would that be good?

I think I may need to make attempts to be busy. I feel like I don't have much to do for some reason. I know that there is a lot that could be cleaned and organized.....I guess it's not my favorite thing to do sometimes.

I have totally fallen into that mentality that I just get things done when ds is in bed. That may have started because he started dropping his nap and going to bed at 7pm so I felt I had lots of time in the evening.

Okay- before hearing back from anyone here is my goal for tomorrow:

State the above statement when asked to play "I am doing.....join in or bring a toy"
Think of some places I might want to go to

Another thought.....maybe ds is SO mad at dh right now because when dh comes home he is trying to mend their relationship by offering to play with him but ds never wants to. He gets very angry and says he wants ME to play with him. Maybe ds shoudl just go about his business and do interesting things he wants to do and ds can just hang out. Maybe having dh try to play with ds is backfiring.

Along those lines.....what about that whole Playful Parenting thing that says kids do well when we give them 30 min a day of floor time when we play what they want to play? Not good?


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## jrose_lee

I'm sorry for posting so much....something has GOT to change around here.

One other question about potty learning. Yes, EC would have been ideal and we tried it at first, but it didn't work for ds. He cried every time I tried to potty him and didn't give any signals. I was too stressed by it and so was he.

So, now we are still in diapers at 3 and not making much progress. I'm trying not to make it a huge deal. I left him nakey tush today and he just peed on the towel I had on the floor (by his train table where he was playing) every time and then would tell me he peed.

What do you do for CC potty learning (I know the tribe doesn't do it that way, but what should I do now that I'm in this situation?) Just leave him nakey tush, explain what he can do and let him decide when to go in the toilet? And just keep cleaning up the messes without comment?


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## HotMama

We spent from age two to four remodeling our house (doing much of the work ourselves) and not really having other children over to our house during that time. I remember being shocked that my child who had shared so sweetly at age two and a half, could no longer share. She got terribly stressed anytime friends came over, when we finally had a space to have company. I remember it taking a good six months to "settle." She's fine now, but it was a rough re-entry period.

My second thought for you, is that your little one is looking for power, and has found some buttons to push to get that power, since his whole world has changed 3X and he had no control over that. I don't think major moves are part of our healthy continuum...you know? I think you just have to nurture, nurture, nurture your family connections to get back to an equilibrium as a family, and things will start to fall back into place as time passes and you settle into your new community. FWIW - the "normal" kid activities haven't been a hit with my kids either, and I realized I was doing them for my own sense of community, rather than theirs. Don't try to hard on that front, just make connections where they seem natural, at the market, library, out walking, neighbors.


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## EnviroBecca

Jrose, we've had many of the same problems you have over the past year (EnviroKid is 3 years 8 months) and we have NOT moved or had any major disruption! I think it has a lot to do with this stage of life, the transition from baby to more autonomous person. We can make it as smooth as possible with the continuum, but because of developments in brain structure and so forth it's still going to be a somewhat turbulent time--like adolescence.

I think you're really on the right track with backing away from the child-centeredness and having your own things to do. At the same time, though, it's important to respect the things your child "needs to get done" to some extent. This is easier as he gets more verbal. EnviroKid often asks me to play with him, but he also often wants to do tasks that are useful or imitating a useful task, for example, "I need to write some things in my checkbook." which means he's going to flip thru his small notepad scribbling on various pages and ripping out some of them. When possible, I respond to his desire to work on something by working with or alongside him: "Oh, I need to write some things in my checkbook, too," and take that opportunity to pay the bills. After all, that's how I want him to respond to my needing to get things done! I flex my schedule to accommodate him, and vice versa.







Not that it works all the time!! But it helps.

When you go to "kid places", do what YOU want to do there and avoid hovering over your son. That doesn't mean you can't play together. Just walk into it like you know what to do there, instead of acting like this is all for him and it's up to him to decide what to do.

Speaking of which, EnviroDaddy recently took up parkour, a sort of sport that you can do in the everyday environment. Very continuum.







Now when he goes to the playground with EnviroKid, he immediately starts jumping all over the equipment (being careful of kids, of course!) and gets some good exercise while leaving EnviroKid to imitate (he's very sensible about what to attempt) or play on his own. I've been doing some of this, too; I'm not as acrobatic, but I do like climbing and jumping, and they are useful skills for taking shortcuts.









Quote:

maybe ds is SO mad at dh right now because when dh comes home he is trying to mend their relationship by offering to play with him but ds never wants to. He gets very angry and says he wants ME to play with him. Maybe ds shoudl just go about his business and do interesting things he wants to do and ds can just hang out.
We're still trying to solve an "I don't like Daddy" problem, too, but one thing we've learned is: It's just deadly for EnviroDaddy to "offer to play" or "try to play" with EnviroKid on purpose with the intention of healing. It seems so kind and generous, but it boils down to a sort of wheedling to get the kid to fix the problem: "Come on, wouldn't it be nice to have fun together? Show me what's fun. See how I'm trying to win your acceptance?"

It works a lot better when EnviroDaddy tells EnviroKid that he's about to do something really interesting and then lets him join in if he wants to: "Look, I bought a new door lock. I'm going to take out the old one and put this one in." Then start doing it, responding to requests for involvement: "The drill is too heavy for you, but I need someone to hold the screws." Talk about what you're doing as long as the kid is hanging around. My dad was excellent at this, and as a result I'm semi-familiar with things like resistors and gears even though they're not so high on my list of personal interests.

Quote:

what about that whole Playful Parenting thing that says kids do well when we give them 30 min a day of floor time when we play what they want to play?
I find that when I try to do that (usually out of guilt that I'm not paying enough attention to my child), he's extremely bossy and critical; it's no fun for me because everything I do is "wrong" to him. If I'm going to play what he wants to play, he figures it should be played EXACTLY as he plans it. I find this very upsetting.







: Instead, once in a while I'll start playing with some toys, and when he comes over to see what I'm doing I tell him about it, and then if he starts offering ideas I model how we accept input from playmates.

Toilet training: After lots of naked time and explaining how convenient it is to use the toilet, we did a sticker chart. Not very continuum-sounding, but it was very effective very quickly.







It seemed to help EnviroKid understand that this was something he could do for himself, not just because we wanted him to, and once he did he was very good at it, with hardly any accidents.


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## jrose_lee

Thank you for your replies! We are implimenting some things today and it has gone fairly well.

I'm kind of confused on the "playing with your kid" thing still though. I do like the idea EnviroBecca (sp?) said about sitting down to play when I feel like it and having him join me.

What are others thoughts on this? Do all of you play with your kids at any point in the day? Or do you just do ordinary tasks together and run errands, leaving them to play on their own when they feel like it?

Also, do you guys think it sounds like we have too many toys? Did I do a bad thing by buying more in the past few months?

We have toy cars, trains, train tracks, a wooden noah's ark and animals, a train table. We have some other various wooden push toys and a little house that ds can go in from Bazoongi kids. It's all very open ended. I hope we just don't have too much or it's been making things negative in some way. Today, ds played a little, but he mostly followed me around (which is what he used to do more until I started playing with him incessently for some reason....WHY would I do that?)

Okay....I'll keep updating. Keep giving me advice! I can't believe that I got so far from doing CC. Yikes.....time to make changes.


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## Periwinkle

Sure I play with my kids! I am a firm believer than if every cell in your body is telling you to do something, better hop to. I mean, playing with my kids is enjoyable and so yes I do. And I'm totally







at the concept of wanting to play with your kids but somehow preventing yourself from doing it because you read in a book somewhere not to. Makes no sense. I think the big difference however is that I do not FOCUS on my kids 24/7, if there's something I need to do, I usually do it, and so on. I think it's almost a mindset difference, where you have adult things to accomplish and your kids may join you and are encouraged to do so VS. being down on the floor with your kids at the expense of taking care of your other responsibilities. I'd say the day is roughly split between 1.) me doing things I need to do period and encouraging the kids to either help and/or play by themselves (like doing dishes, doing laundry, cleaning, decluttering/tidying), 2.) me doing things that need to get done but that the kids really enjoy doing too so we all do it together (like working in the garden, running errands, cooking, cleaning out the garage or similar home chores), and 3.) me taking some time to spend with them just doing kid activities (like reading to them, arts & crafts, playing trains, riding bikes, family movie night, etc.). I'm a numbers gal, lol, so I'd guess that the breakdown on an AVERAGE day is something like 35/50/15 respectively.


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## User101

Hi there! In the interest of limiting FYT to subjects not hosted elsewhere on the board, we have moved your tribe here. You're still a tribe, which means you're still support-only. If you have any questions about the move, please do not discuss it on the boards. Rather, contact an administrator or start a thread in Questions and Suggestions. Thanks, and happy posting!


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## flowers

jrose,

You know I kind of had the same thought as another mama- 2-3 yrs is a big transition age. Just keep nurturing! This will pass and you will find the clues little by little about how to help keep your family balanced and flowing.

I also agree about not trying to avoid playing. I actually notice that if I wake up, make my tea and lay on the floor (stretching and doing some exercising) first thing in the morning we have a much better time. I realized its because they love having me on their level. I do my thing (tea and stretch) but they are playing around me, on me, singing with me, asking me to read books etc. When I skip that time they seem to follow me around at the ankles whining, but if we connect really solidly they are able to function much more independently.

This happens throughout the day. I notice after I have focused on cleaning, cooking, computer time that if I check in and offer to read books, set up the craft table whatever things flow better.

Another thing you have to remember you are missing from the cc is older playmates. In a tribal setting there were the older kids to play and entertain the younger ones. Now it is just you. so keep this in mind. cc is just this women's ever so insightful observations. you know need to look at your modern life and see how you can best apply the gems of knowledge, but it is by no means a black and white manual of how to raise your kid, yk?

On another note, we have just moved to a new community, and we keep getting comments on how "independent" our kids are. Both of them are very differently personalities but both are able to play solo for good amounts of time and then come find me when they need something (drink, hugs, food etc). I was commenting to dh on how we keep getting this feedback and he said, "well, its b/c we read about all of this before youhad ds1. remember that book about not following you kid around."







It was so funny that he remembered thus prompting me to check out this tribe again.


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## jrose_lee

Just a quick update. I am seeing a WORLD of difference around here. We have had three really good days together. And it's all because we have dropped being child centered. Ds seems really relived. He is happy a lot more of the time and happy to play by himself or help me. It is amazing. Thank goodness we figured out what we were doing before our baby is born in April/May.

Speaking of that.....any advice out there for making a transition to two kiddos? We just told ds about the baby today and he is very excited so far. I'm sure he has no idea what it really entails though. I was kind of considering buying him a waldorf doll and sling and another doll for me. Then I would wear the doll for the last month or so and start doing all the baby stuff. Diaper changes, nursing, babywearing etc. I was wondering if it might help him not be so shocked after the baby is born. Hmmm.....I don't know. Ds isn't big on changes.


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## flowers

cross posted jrose!









so glad things are going better!

my boys are 3 years apart and to tell you the truth we just made pregnancy and baby prep such a normal part of our lives that i don't think it was that big of change, kwim? for example, the months before the baby came we had spoken of the baby so many times, kissed the baby before bed, sang songs, told stories of how the baby would come out, told him stories of him being a baby that he was very ready. I did go 3 weeks past my edd and i think he picked up on our "waiting" vibes and had a really rough week in there somewhere, but he handled the new baby like a champ! We really emphasized being the "big bro" and all the cool things about it. Pointed out other siblings etc.

he's going to do great!


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## zansmama

I don't know if I'd wear a sling myself... Ds would know that it was fake, and might be weirded out...
But as far as a sibling goes, by far the best method I have seen is to treat it as though you are getting a new pet: "... and this is your new baby brother, no-one else's, and we have to take really good care of him so he'll grow big and strong to play with you."
De-emphasize the "my new baby" and emphasize "new member of our team/family". I've seen this prevent jealousy, and definitely help to create strong bonds.
i'm so jealous, myself. I wish ds had a (not newborn







) baby to tote around and nurture. It's SO part of the continuum.


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## Surfacing

Subbing to come back and read. We use a lot of cc stuff around here, heck my mother used it with me too!

My first dd majorly whined and cried well into her 2nd yr until I finally stopped being so child centered. It was a big, positive change for our whole family.

I love wearing my babies and have done so/still do so often.


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## Devaya

this is really interesting...what i'm wondering is, what to do if most of the things you can do that are NOT child-centred, are incredibly boring? I find I start feeling depressed, bored and unfulfilled if I spend all day doing housework, or indeed, just being around the house. it may improve when we soon move into a house with a garden, bc i look forward to doing some gardening and possibly getting DS involved with that when he's a bit older. but at the moment it just feels like there's little I can do in terms of MY interests or 'things i need to do', bc al the things i really want to do (like writing, reading etc) are stationary, not moving, and DS gets fussy and bored then (understandably). He also plays happily on his own for longer periods now, but will often do the whole 'clinging to my leg' thing. He crawls (only started recently) but doesn't do it that much, is more of a content to be where he is kind of baby.

the CC really resonates with me, and I feel that I have been intuitively practicing many elements of it, I notice this particularly in how I sometimes feel 'guilty' when I see how some mom friends of mine are so 'all over' their kids and everything they plan all day is for their kids...i.e. this 'group' and that 'group', courses, swimming, etc...all of it is for them... and I'm not like that. I plan to see a friend bc I enjoy their company...or i go for a walk to the park bc i like to, and DS comes along and is happy...and I was starting to think i was just 'selfish', so its good to come back to this tribe!

at the moment my week consists of things like volunteering at a breastfeeding drop in, where DS is pretty independent and just 'comes and gets me' if he needs, or he is being 'worn'; meeting other moms in the park or at their houses with their babies; going to support group twice a week which is child friendly but not child-centred'; doing yoga in the mornings while DS plays around me; going for walks in the park, looking at ballgames and dogs with DS loves; and of course housework (but not much of it!)


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## rissierae

I really liked the book, but I am left with a lot of thoughts and questions (some of which are probably already discussed on here). But first let me start with an observation.

I went to a play group with my sister (her kids are 3 and 18 mo.), and none of the moms could just relax and let all of the preschool and toddler aged kids play together, including my sister. There were 4 moms including myself and it was constant hovering the whole time. I was wearing my baby and we were pretty much just observing, because the moms were so obsessed with their kids that there was no point in trying to have an adult conversation. Which is the whole reason I went, to be around other moms instead of at home alone with ds. The whole time the moms were saying things like, don't kick the woodchips; you can't go over there without me; don't leave this area; only go down this slide... etc. I really couldn't believe it. This is an example of what I don't want to be!

That said. Even before I read the book and knew about the concept, I was pretty much doing it. I wear ds most of the day with the exception of him being in the carseat when in the car. We co-sleep and all the rest. But I wonder sometimes about swaddling. I have swaddled ds since day one especially during the night. I just wonder because the blanket is covering everything but his head, there isn't much skin on skin contact. But during the early days of breastfeeding especially, we couldn't have done without it (his arms were crazy). Any thoughts on this?

Ever since I read the book, I quetion everything I'm doing. I try to go with my instinct, but it's hard to follow sometimes. People talk about contuum babies being soft and easy to hold. My ds is sometimes, but he has this weird thing with wanting his legs straight, knees locked and everything, since he was about 2 weeks old. He never was very good at the newborn froggy position. And I wonder if I've done something wrong or if it is just the way he is. He loves to stand eventhough he can't do it on his own yet.

I apologise for rambling on, I'm just glad I found this thread so that I can express my thoughts and concerns.


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## zansmama

i think we have to remember that despite our best efforts, our babies will probably not be completely continuum: our society is just so not continuum at all. I also wondered this about ds: he was in constant motion, always, and I would never have described him as "soft", exactly... however, i really didn't start CC-ing until he was 9 mos, or so, already walking, and not being worn much unless he was sick or teething...


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaya* 
this is really interesting...what i'm wondering is, what to do if most of the things you can do that are NOT child-centred, are incredibly boring? I find I start feeling depressed, bored and unfulfilled if I spend all day doing housework, or indeed, just being around the house. it may improve when we soon move into a house with a garden, bc i look forward to doing some gardening and possibly getting DS involved with that when he's a bit older. but at the moment it just feels like there's little I can do in terms of MY interests or 'things i need to do', bc al the things i really want to do (like writing, reading etc) are stationary, not moving, and DS gets fussy and bored then (understandably). He also plays happily on his own for longer periods now, but will often do the whole 'clinging to my leg' thing. He crawls (only started recently) but doesn't do it that much, is more of a content to be where he is kind of baby.

)

i would remember that reading or writing is not exactly in the continuum, so dc don't understand that as "work" until they are a bit older. But hey, it's not in the continuum to sit around the house being isolated either! i think getting out and being with friends is super important, esp. with a very little one.
i would also encourage you to try getting into more smple 'work' like sewing or knitting, or making things. As ds gets older, he will be wanting to help, and he will definitely recognize these things as work and be more willing to let you alone. I used to always take some kind of "work" with me to the playground so that ds would play with the other kids while I talked with grownups.Actually, now that i think back, we spent many hours every day at the park in a sort of tribal situation...

Also, i think you said he is crawling: I would really encourage you to let him fully realize this "creeping" stage. It is very important to development in many ways. Let him ask to be lifted now (mostly). Of course you will not refuse... At this point he is transitioning from the "in-arms" stage.
i still carried ds in the sling _when he wanted to be carried_, but most of the time, he wanted to creep around and explore. If the little ones are used to having their needs met, they will not hesitate to make their needs known.


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## Devaya

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama* 
i would remember that reading or writing is not exactly in the continuum, so dc don't understand that as "work" until they are a bit older. But hey, it's not in the continuum to sit around the house being isolated either! i think getting out and being with friends is super important, esp. with a very little one.
i would also encourage you to try getting into more smple 'work' like sewing or knitting, or making things. As ds gets older, he will be wanting to help, and he will definitely recognize these things as work and be more willing to let you alone. I used to always take some kind of "work" with me to the playground so that ds would play with the other kids while I talked with grownups.Actually, now that i think back, we spent many hours every day at the park in a sort of tribal situation...

Also, i think you said he is crawling: I would really encourage you to let him fully realize this "creeping" stage. It is very important to development in many ways. Let him ask to be lifted now (mostly). Of course you will not refuse... At this point he is transitioning from the "in-arms" stage.
i still carried ds in the sling _when he wanted to be carried_, but most of the time, he wanted to creep around and explore. If the little ones are used to having their needs met, they will not hesitate to make their needs known.

thanks for that - you've given me some food for thought...i have been considering getting into some things like knitting...i am not a very 'practical' person and knitting was the only kind of thing like that, that i was ever good at at school...

re the crawling, well i'm wondering about this transitional phase, bc he's only recently started crawling and actually doesn't 'use' the skill that much, often seeming to prefer being held or carried around. I give him lots of opportunity to get around but sometimes it's just too much 'whining' and so I pick him up again. He uses it more when we're out and about with other babies, and when there's new things to explore. but i think that will change... I also still have that strong instinct to pick up and carry him and i don't know if that's 'correct' for this stage anymore...i guess we as mothers 'transition' too when these changes happen!


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## zansmama

Hey, for sure you should pick him up if he wants you to!!! Of course he is still "just" a baby, and needs a lot of contact: don't get me wrong.
But when he _is_ crawling and exploring, I would be hesitant to pick him up. I would let him come to me, or call me. many parents will just snatch up a child who is a little frustrated that he can't grab a toy: when perhaps they should let him keep trying until he gets it.
Follow your instincts, though, for sure.


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## harrietsmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *myrrhmaid* 
i'm re-reading tcc right now after reading it 14 yrs. ago when i had my son.
i'm trying to get to the point where i can learn to be my best parent-since mine were sadly lacking in many ways.
her descriptions of a baby kicking, aching, skin crawling, longing to be held/touched reminds me so much of myself as a listless child. it is excruciating emotionally to read her descriptions.
anyone else trying to make peace with their own lack of parenting through tcc?
i'm just about 1/2 way through and hoping to find some solid things i can do.
i'm curiuos about the riding roller coasters etc.
i haven't got that far yet-and don't remember it from the 1st time through.
nak

Yep. It's been a long time since I read the book, and I didn't make the connection right away. I didn't sling much, but held my babies a lot. I got to sling my youngest more due to having to take meds, so I wasn't so milky, I would have been soaked to my shoes other wise. I found a way to hold my babies so didn't spray all over through all my layers. I literally stuffed dishtowels in my bra. I found great success with a rebozo with my son and wore him on my back regularly until he was about 4. I have gone through some serious recovery and stabalizing due to mental health issues and I'd like to get back to this way of life. My dp is recovering from being beaten regularly as a child, well he hasn't dealt with it at all but he is trying to follow my lead and does honor my gentle parenting approach as best he can. He has trouble with tone of voice and wording. My kids are 6.5 and 7.5 currently schooled, but most of the school employees are folks my dp grew up with and are part of the community and we see them regularly outside of school. We live in a very small village in _rural_ west Michigan. I bake for them frequently and work on my mental health while they are at school, but I also regularly go to school and kinda hang out and participate. My copy of CC is deeply buried in storage, but I remember it well from the baby perspective, but now that my kids are older, I'm a little unsure of how to move back into it. The best way for me to have community is to be involved with the school b/c all the folks who homeschool are very brimstone and fire you'll burn in hell for everything kind folks and I just can't fit into that. Plus, they do it at home with their kids, not so much communally, but I only have 2 kids, not 8 or 12.

Thoughts?


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## Periwinkle

In no particular order here are the things that I find very important at being CC with older children (and I should caveat all of this by saying I'm not actually *trying* to be CC or follow any specific parenting program, but I find an affinity between some of the points in CC and a general desire on my and dh's part to better connect our kids with the natural experiences and environments that have promoted healthy growth and development for millenia):

1.) Let kids be in nature as much as possible. REAL nature... not manufactured nature like zoos or plastic playgrounds, but nature walks, streams, hikes, woods, lying on the grass looking at the sky, digging in the mud, etc etc.

2.) ZERO video games.

3.) Minimum TV. We do let the kids watch TV now (they didn't until they were 4 1/2) and we very much enjoy things like Movie Night. In fact, some movies (dare I say this, lol) such as "Swiss Family Robinson" are extremely interesting to my kids. No ads ever.

4.) Very careful about books. We read a lot of books, but I am really careful about what messages the books are sending. I look for books that include nature, are about exploration, provide reinforcing messages about how to treat people, etc.

5.) Foster sense of personal responsibility for our home/garden and for our community. We don't do allowance, for example, and my kids are never paid for doing chores around the house. They pitch in and help out when needed, and there are also specific things ("chores", but we don't call them that) that they have to take care of each day. In terms of community, little things like while walking down the street if we see trash, we pick it up, to big things like volunteering for charity.

6.) Maintaining a garden. The kids help out with ALL yardwork, as a matter of course, almost daily. We also have a vegetable garden this year which has been more of a learning tool than I ever could have imagined, and beyond that they seem to have a real pride in providing for our family.

7.) Down with commercialism and consumer culture. No characters, no brand consciousness. This doesn't mean they're not aware of what things cost... they are (and IMO should be). But they don't perceive clothes from X store to be _better than_ clothes from Y store, and certainly not that it confers any value onto them as people to wear A brand or B style. But we DO talk about things like, hmmm, this dress from Hanna Andersson is $39... let's see, that is about how much money we spend each month on milk or electricity to run the lights. We look at other options or we buy the dress but ask her to take care of it. It's not about guilt, it's about understanding that money doesn't grow on trees for ANYONE and just because we want something doesn't mean we run right out and buy it.

8.) Cooking with us / visiting farms / local food movement. Our kids know why we don't eat bananas in July. They know why we don't buy apples from Chile. They come with us to local farms to pick fruit and veggies, and select our meat, eggs, etc. They cook with us and come with me to the grocery store even though, sure it would be easier for me to go myself. I think there's a big tie in with appreciating where food comes from and what real foods is.

The one area where, if I had to do it all over again (lol) I would change is the toys. I think because our first were twins and the first grandchildren for some of their grandparents, they got pretty impressively spoiled. We have a lot of toys. Now we have never done blinking light/character plastic stuff, but still... a lot of toys are a lot of toys even if it's Haba and Magic Cabin and Playmobil and wood etc. I think the issue is almost more the fact that they're TOYS as oppsoed to what they're made out of -- does that make sense or do you all think I'm crazy, lol?? I mean, we have a playroom. It's filled with toys. I am really good about going through it with the kids and filling boxes to donate, but still... we have a room in our house devoted to.... to.... things.







Wouldn't do that one over again if I could. I still fantastize about sneaking in there and packing up everything except the most beloved toys. And compared to a lot of other people, we have few toys (and of course compared to many people, we have so much - not trying to sound ungrateful at all







it's not that it's just when I think about what my kids actually get enjoyment out of it's a.) doing something (esp. a project) with us, and b.) being outside. And books. Hmm.... writing all this out is making me think with the start of school, I need to rethink the toy thing and how we handle it in our home.

Sorry to







ramble on. Just the questions about how to do this with older kids is near and dear to my heart since I technically only have older kids now (3 y.o. and two 6 y.o.'s).








: to read others' ideas on this.


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## harrietsmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 
In no particular order here are the things that I find very important at being CC with older children (and I should caveat all of this by saying I'm not actually *trying* to be CC or follow any specific parenting program, but I find an affinity between some of the points in CC and a general desire on my and dh's part to better connect our kids with the natural experiences and environments that have promoted healthy growth and development for millenia):

1.) Let kids be in nature as much as possible. REAL nature... not manufactured nature like zoos or plastic playgrounds, but nature walks, streams, hikes, woods, lying on the grass looking at the sky, digging in the mud, etc etc.

2.) ZERO video games.

3.) Minimum TV. We do let the kids watch TV now (they didn't until they were 4 1/2) and we very much enjoy things like Movie Night. In fact, some movies (dare I say this, lol) such as "Swiss Family Robinson" are extremely interesting to my kids. No ads ever.

4.) Very careful about books. We read a lot of books, but I am really careful about what messages the books are sending. I look for books that include nature, are about exploration, provide reinforcing messages about how to treat people, etc.

5.) Foster sense of personal responsibility for our home/garden and for our community. We don't do allowance, for example, and my kids are never paid for doing chores around the house. They pitch in and help out when needed, and there are also specific things ("chores", but we don't call them that) that they have to take care of each day. In terms of community, little things like while walking down the street if we see trash, we pick it up, to big things like volunteering for charity.

6.) Maintaining a garden. The kids help out with ALL yardwork, as a matter of course, almost daily. We also have a vegetable garden this year which has been more of a learning tool than I ever could have imagined, and beyond that they seem to have a real pride in providing for our family.

7.) Down with commercialism and consumer culture. No characters, no brand consciousness. This doesn't mean they're not aware of what things cost... they are (and IMO should be). But they don't perceive clothes from X store to be _better than_ clothes from Y store, and certainly not that it confers any value onto them as people to wear A brand or B style. But we DO talk about things like, hmmm, this dress from Hanna Andersson is $39... let's see, that is about how much money we spend each month on milk or electricity to run the lights. We look at other options or we buy the dress but ask her to take care of it. It's not about guilt, it's about understanding that money doesn't grow on trees for ANYONE and just because we want something doesn't mean we run right out and buy it.

8.) Cooking with us / visiting farms / local food movement. Our kids know why we don't eat bananas in July. They know why we don't buy apples from Chile. They come with us to local farms to pick fruit and veggies, and select our meat, eggs, etc. They cook with us and come with me to the grocery store even though, sure it would be easier for me to go myself. I think there's a big tie in with appreciating where food comes from and what real foods is.

The one area where, if I had to do it all over again (lol) I would change is the toys. I think because our first were twins and the first grandchildren for some of their grandparents, they got pretty impressively spoiled. We have a lot of toys. Now we have never done blinking light/character plastic stuff, but still... a lot of toys are a lot of toys even if it's Haba and Magic Cabin and Playmobil and wood etc. I think the issue is almost more the fact that they're TOYS as oppsoed to what they're made out of -- does that make sense or do you all think I'm crazy, lol?? I mean, we have a playroom. It's filled with toys. I am really good about going through it with the kids and filling boxes to donate, but still... we have a room in our house devoted to.... to.... things.







Wouldn't do that one over again if I could. I still fantastize about sneaking in there and packing up everything except the most beloved toys. And compared to a lot of other people, we have few toys (and of course compared to many people, we have so much - not trying to sound ungrateful at all







it's not that it's just when I think about what my kids actually get enjoyment out of it's a.) doing something (esp. a project) with us, and b.) being outside. And books. Hmm.... writing all this out is making me think with the start of school, I need to rethink the toy thing and how we handle it in our home.

Sorry to







ramble on. Just the questions about how to do this with older kids is near and dear to my heart since I technically only have older kids now (3 y.o. and two 6 y.o.'s).








: to read others' ideas on this.

We kind of already do a lot of this.

We live very rurally. I volunteer at an organic CSA so my kids are exposed to that. We bake and cook together since we have to work around food intolerances and I have to bake anyway. We have lots of animals, they play outside all the time. We have a crick, chickens who make our eggs, goats - not ready to take on milking yet, maybe after I can get a garden going here, we go 2 tracking all the time and go exploring, we hunt morels every year daily through the whole season and see a lot of new life developing. we always talk about the weather vs. certain plant development and whether the baby gardener snakes are all over yet, we see new birds and snakes to look up each year. We see other mushrooms and look those up. I have to be so cautious though because those can be poisonous to touch. My son's favorite book is a HUGE almanac he found at this cool used & rare book store - it's a 4 story warehouse - we spend hours in there! It was the most expensive book in our pile by far but he was so taken with it I got it and he has made it worth it's price. He looks through it all the time asking questions, making up stories, comparing fiction to what he sees on the maps.

We are too close in our budget to do an allowance, but the kids help out, I just include them in what I'm doing when they aren't absorbed in their own thing or helping Matt outside.

I do hate their toys and the TV. Matt has been VERY VERY ill at times and can't stand to not have it on ( he doesn't read - he started working full time at 13 and paid the neighbor girl to do all his school work). He also has tinnitus so the back round noise helps with that. I miss silence! and my x's mother introduced them to disney and polyethylene plastic toys early on. yuck.

I am sewing a lot of my daughter's clothes this year, which I have done before. I am hoping she'll be interested this time around.

They both lov elearning, we recycle together, there's a new AFC home down the street and I thought we might make them cards at holidays and birthdays. When i was young I was in Campfire and we used to do valentines for veterans and a nursing home thing at christmas, and plant stuff at a retirement community in the spring. I thought it would be nice to do together since a lot of folks in these homes don't have a lot of family in a lot of cases.

I guess I'm not too far off, just have a bit of a sabatour in my dp







when it comes to TV and burning plastic etc ugh. At least he doesn't put full aerosol cans in the fire pit and hide behind the propane tank to see how big the mushroom cloud is anymore. I wouldn't stand for that. It was pre me days or I might wring his pretty little neck!


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## magentamomma

no time to read all 41 pages now,but great tribe. I identify with TCC alot sometimes more so than AP. I may be splitting hairs., but the hovering is a big deal to us. I constantly hear how coordinated and daring my kids are, and no one adds "for girls" on the end. My dds put most rough and tumble boys to shame, and I really think it is due to the backseat we have taken with their play. I am half asleep so please forgive my loopiness, just really loved finding this.


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## hollycat

wow, thanks for this. i had never heard of this and just a quick scan of the concepts feels so intuitively correct to me.

SO many childrearing theories seem to me to be all about the emotional needs of a parent masquerading as the emotinal needs of the child. and so many parents who dont even know they have emotional needs or wounds that they are trying to clear by "doing it differently with their child".

interesting stuff.


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## hollycat

by the way, what is AP?


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## HotMama

attachment parenting


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## magentamomma

rissierae said:


> I went to a play group with my sister (her kids are 3 and 18 mo.), and none of the moms could just relax and let all of the preschool and toddler aged kids play together, including my sister. There were 4 moms including myself and it was constant hovering the whole time. I was wearing my baby and we were pretty much just observing, because the moms were so obsessed with their kids that there was no point in trying to have an adult conversation. Which is the whole reason I went, to be around other moms instead of at home alone with ds. The whole time the moms were saying things like, don't kick the woodchips; you can't go over there without me; don't leave this area; only go down this slide... etc. I really couldn't believe it. This is an example of what I don't want to be!
> 
> This is what drives me crazy about alot of the AP moms I know. It turns Attachment Parenting Into codependant parenting, or attached at the hip parenting.LET THE KIDS PLAY!!
> 
> But I wonder sometimes about swaddling. I have swaddled ds since day one especially during the night. I just wonder because the blanket is covering everything but his head, there isn't much skin on skin contact. But during the early days of breastfeeding especially, we couldn't have done without it (his arms were crazy). Any thoughts on this?
> 
> Ever since I read the book, I quetion everything I'm doing. I try to go with my instinct, but it's hard to follow sometimes. People talk about contuum babies being soft and easy to hold. My ds is sometimes, but he has this weird thing with wanting his legs straight, knees locked and everything, since he was about 2 weeks old. He never was very good at the newborn froggy position. And I wonder if I've done something wrong or if it is just the way he is. He loves to stand eventhough he can't do it on his own yet.
> (QUOTE)
> 
> Some babies are born Hypertonic or high muscle tone. In my experience as a mom of 2 high tone babies, they like and need to be swaddled. Some babies HATE it. My ds couldn't latch w/o being swaddled. I think it is like all the rest of CC/AP/NFL you use your instincts with each child and raise them accordingly


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## zansmama

I am remembering ds as loving to stand as well, from very early on... and then walking at barely 9 mos...


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## Greenmama2AJ

Can I join you ladies?
I haven't read all of the 800 or so posts, just the first and last page, so forgive me for bringing in old topics









I am very passionate about what I consider evolutionary parenting and development. I read the Continuum Concept and loved the concept - though I did find Leidloff's impression a little romantisized and rose coloured.
Her belief that CC babies will do X, Y & Z really frustrated me.
Anyone with children knows that they are individuals and you can parent two children who are completely different. If Leidloff was correct then every AP baby would be calm, gentle and serene. But they're not, and I think that has to do with temprement and not that they are spearated and isolated from their natural evolutionary ideal.

I dont think as an outsider to the Huarana culture, and as a lady who never had children of her own, that she can truly talk with 100% insight. But I still liked her reflections and observations - I follow many of the basic principles.

Magenta mommy - my DS was a lego boy like your LO







He loved the bjorn carrier and sticking out his legs. He supported his weight from a very early age and walked very early. He was a sensitive and high needs baby, even though he had a very gentle entry into the world and was parented with a natural, evolutionary style. But he is an absolute joy as a toddler.
So dont feel guilty because your baby isn't limp - I dont agree with the CC ideal of limp babies either. Remember Leidloff isn't a scientist, just a social observer.


----------



## jrose_lee

Hey!

I could use a little brainstorming if anyone has a chance.

Sometimes I am having a hard time finding things to keep busy so that I dont' fall into the whole child centered thing. Ds truly is happier when we are busy and I am doing something.

Ds is 2.5 years old.

We definitley clean something every day and do the dishes, but sometimes I am just TIRED of cleaning- LOL! We go outside every day and go places where I decide we should go. We have a fun time.

However, ds mostly will not nap anymore and the days DO tend to start getting long. I am also in my first trimester and I start dragging toward the end of the day. Things start falling apart.

With that, and the cold weather starting to sneak in (less time outdoors) I was just hoping some of you could throw some of your hobbies my way. Some fun things to get involved in that ds could try doing if he wanted to or just play nearby.

My list is somewhat short, but....

knitting
perhaps making jewelry
crosstitching

I don't know......I'd love ideas. I feel like I'm having a hard time filling up the day. Don't own our own home or have a yard I can work in either so I feel like I'm lacking a bit of stuff there.

TIA!


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## magentamomma

Homemade play dough with cookie cutters, garlic press, rolling pin

Paints

collage, old magazines,leaves,feathers


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## Greenmama2AJ

I was going to suggest clay/ playdough too. You can make some very practical things with clay and kids love it.

Cooking? Though you might stat to get a little large if you bake every day, lol

If you like sewing, maybe you could try making some things and DS could learn to wrap wool into balls, kids seem to like that strangely, lol. You could also have him sort and play with the fabric etc.


----------



## harrietsmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greenmama2AJ* 
I was going to suggest clay/ playdough too. You can make some very practical things with clay and kids love it.

Cooking? Though you might stat to get a little large if you bake every day, lol

If you like sewing, maybe you could try making some things and DS could learn to wrap wool into balls, kids seem to like that strangely, lol. You could also have him sort and play with the fabric etc.

yeah, you can make your own playdoh, and that will often last kids for hours, but you could also start looking through cookbooks with him and cook ahead for your family so that you can reduce the stress of 'what's for dinner?' when baby comes. You can also freeze homemade snacks, PB&J sandwiches and take a few out at a time.

Knitting is very relaxing and I loved wrapping yarn into a ball for YEARS and we would talk together at the same time.

Jewelry making is fun, but little pieces... might wanna take that up later.

Good luck!


----------



## sweetieberlin

a strange request,

but I am not in the US, and cant really afford a book.. but is there anyone willing to lend me a copy??

I am really interested in reading this book.

thanks


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## EnviroBecca

Jrose, cooking is a fun and practical thing to do. My son could use a paring knife at that age; he's fairly well coordinated, but if you think your son is not ready for a sharp knife you could give him a butter knife and have him cut the softer things. He also might enjoy adding ingredients and stirring. Does he have a child-sized apron?

We all love to play games in my family. At first, I just set out the game components on the table and let my son decide how to play with them. Some good games for this are Treehouse, Aquarius, Labyrinth or anything with tiles that form a pattern, and checkers. As he approached 3, my son began to catch on to playing games with rules. With a lot of instruction (and no expectation that he'll keep his cards hidden), he's now able to play the above games, Candy Land, Sorry, Uno, Stadium Checkers, Fluxx, and Carcassone.

I used to enjoy doing "sewing cards" with punched holes through which a shoelace could be stitched. I'd work on them while my mom was sewing; it was good practice at the sewing motion without the risk of pricked fingers. I think I started sewing with a real needle at 4 or 5 years old. My son (3 1/2) has done some real sewing; he likes to take an old sock or something from the rag bag and sew it up into a wad and then throw it like a ball.


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## Devaya

I've been thinking about the whole 'work' thing, and that we need to be busy and our kids to see what we do and learn from that...and ws discussing it with some other moms, who IMO are very 'child centred' . one of them said, but in real, normal life, we don't just work all the time (i.e.cook, clean, knit, make things, whatever), we do have downtime where we relax and 'play', and so getting down on the floor and playing with your baby, and watching TV or whatever you do to relax, is all part of life.

IT got me thinking about just how un-continuum our culture is, as PP's have said. It makes me really sad. But I also think she had a point. In other times and cultures, 'leisure' didn't/doesn't exist the way it does for us. ALmost constantly the activities would be going on for survival...so how do we possibly measure up to that?

I was looking a few pages back and noticed discussion on the hovering thing...I don't know why, but i find this non-hovering thing comes really naturally to me, so much so that sometimes I think DS is going to come to harm! I really am so relaxed with him, that a few times I have had comments from strangers like 'You shouldn't let him play there...' 'Ugh,he's putting the pebbles in his MOUTH!' etc etc. Mostly just uptight people who in many cases have obviously not had children (or they would have realised they put everything in their mouths). But i'm getting a bit tired of it already.

I have noticed though that DS is a lot more confident than many other babies I observe, and has become so quite quickly (considering he only started crawling at a relatively late age). He very quickly learned to duck his head when going under low tables etc, and I think he was able to learn that bc I didn't run around after him all the time (as I see other moms do). He also seems so much more independent and secure, which I couldnt imagine happening when he used to want to be held or carried practically all the time...he goes and does his thing and only sometimes comes to 'find' me in the house. It gives me more confidence in what i've been doing.


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## Enudely

I've always been able to do housework and my daughter was totally happy, but lately she's been just constantly begging me to play with her. I can only say no so much! I've been trying to get other kids for her to play with as much as possible, but basically I end up playing with her a lot....
don't really know what else to do. We don't live in a tribal setting with all kinds of kids running around and dd really likes to play with someone


----------



## harrietsmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Enudely* 
I've always been able to do housework and my daughter was totally happy, but lately she's been just constantly begging me to play with her. I can only say no so much! I've been trying to get other kids for her to play with as much as possible, but basically I end up playing with her a lot....
don't really know what else to do. We don't live in a tribal setting with all kinds of kids running around and dd really likes to play with someone









I would say, take turns. The dirt isn't going anywhere. Play with her, set a timer if you want, and then say, it's mommy's turn! and give her something similar to what you are doing. If you are washing dishes, give her some tupperware and a wash cloth. her attention span at this age can vary a lot, she might get bored and go explore or she might beg you some more. I don't know - I just had a dirty house







when someone ran out of laundry, me or ex did the critical stuff. Since then I have found that only having so many sets of clothes, and so many dishes, silverware etc. reduced the work.


----------



## Enudely

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harrietsmama* 
I would say, take turns. The dirt isn't going anywhere. Play with her, set a timer if you want, and then say, it's mommy's turn! and give her something similar to what you are doing. If you are washing dishes, give her some tupperware and a wash cloth. her attention span at this age can vary a lot, she might get bored and go explore or she might beg you some more. I don't know - I just had a dirty house







when someone ran out of laundry, me or ex did the critical stuff. Since then I have found that only having so many sets of clothes, and so many dishes, silverware etc. reduced the work.









thanks! I do try to involve her in the housework, and sometimes it works, but she mostly wants me to make her animals (or a fork, or my fingers, _whatever_) talk and pretend to go to the park with her.
All. day. long.


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## Greenmama2AJ

What book Nikki?

Envirobecca - its so cute the way little kids dont have a concept of competition and keeping the cards "secret". My little sister used to always "cheat" by helping my mom beat me - lol. She loved uno.

Devaya - it _is_ sad how uncontinuum our society is at times. I think its so sad how we have to defend really natural things like breastfeeding or holding our babies.
And as a mom of a toddler I know what you mean about the hovering moms too. My DS thinks that mulch is particularly yummy, lol.

One thing that I do believe though is that ancient societies do actually play.
I live in Australia and the Aboriginal Indigenous cultures here have a deeply ingrained sense of humour and fun. Traditional games often include the natural environment - and happen at the end of the day or in the afternoon. Celebrations and ceremonies, dressing up, climbing, art, story telling, hide and seek, swimming at the water hole etc. The adults are involved in these activities and pass on the traditions. There _is_ more to life than cleaning, gathering and cooking.
Culture is an important part of life within any society.

I dont think its wrong for adults to play with children. I think its more important that they experience the culture they live in and feel a purpose behind the days activities


----------



## Devaya

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greenmama2AJ* 

One thing that I do believe though is that ancient societies do actually play.
I live in Australia and the Aboriginal Indigenous cultures here have a deeply ingrained sense of humour and fun. Traditional games often include the natural environment - and happen at the end of the day or in the afternoon. Celebrations and ceremonies, dressing up, climbing, art, story telling, hide and seek, swimming at the water hole etc. The adults are involved in these activities and pass on the traditions. There _is_ more to life than cleaning, gathering and cooking.
Culture is an important part of life within any society.

I dont think its wrong for adults to play with children. I think its more important that they experience the culture they live in and feel a purpose behind the days activities









Thank you for that insight. Yes, culture is learned through play as well as work, I think.

SOmething that's been on my mind lately is - how do we convey these concepts (if we do at all) to grandparents and the like? For e.g., I am trying to do unconditional parenting, and I really WINCE when DS's grandmother (my partner's mom) says 'good boy!' enthusiastically every time he eats something, or does practically anything. It just seems so.. patronising...thoughI know she loves him and means entirely well, and just thinks she is encouraging and affirming him. WHen we stayed at their house recently it was impossible to be CC... basically the adults just sat around and watched DS play and played with him, and 'good-boy'-ed him. He got quite restless actually, with that - he's used to a bigger variety of activities. ANyway, I really don't want to hurt their feelings, but we may well be moving closer to them in the next year and they will obviously be involved in his life a lot more. They are lovely grandparents and good people but like most people in our society, don't know about these concepts.

They brought up vaccinations and their concerns at length recently, and the granddad displayed a lot of contempt for approaches that are critical of the norm...which makes me worry..anyone handled this sort of thing?

(By the way my partner is quite effortlessly CC...weirdly enough...though hes struggled with the AP part of it all!)


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## sweetieberlin

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greenmama2AJ* 
What book Nikki?



someone rec. I read the book, "The Continuum Concept", because I am having a hard time with ds.. I feel the need to play with him/entertain him 24 hours a day.. I I figured this was a tribe based on the concepts on which the book was written.. sorry if I was wrong.. as I have never heard of this concept before a few days ago..


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## Devaya

the tribe is based on using the ideas in that book as far as i know...

and i hear you with the feeling of the need to entertain your child all day. I used to feel like that too until I learned more about the continuum concept and had my intuition validated (that he doesn't need me to do that, he just needs to participate in my life).


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## sweetieberlin

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaya* 
the tribe is based on using the ideas in that book as far as i know...

and i hear you with the feeling of the need to entertain your child all day. I used to feel like that too until I learned more about the continuum concept and had my intuition validated (that he doesn't need me to do that, he just needs to participate in my life).

this is exactly why I would like to read this book.. but I really dont have the option of special ordering it..


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## Devaya

can you request it at your local library? our library sometimes orders books for you if they aren't in stock. there are often really cheap second hand books on amazon, though you still have to pay postage. I hear ya on the money thing, there are so many parenting books i'd like to buy but since my maternity pay stopped there really isnt cash for that.


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## KBug

Most hunter-gatherer cultures had a great deal of leisure time. In warm climates, it usually only required a few hours a day to get food. When we became agricultural, we had to work far harder and had very little time. Now we are getting some of it back again. I try to spend as much unstructured leisure time outdoors in nature with the kids as I can, esp before it gets really cold.


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## Materfamilias

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBug* 
Most hunter-gatherer cultures had a great deal of leisure time. In warm climates, it usually only required a few hours a day to get food. When we became agricultural, we had to work far harder and had very little time.

This is pointed out in the book "Our Babies, Ourselves". Anyone read that? Pretty interesting. It gives a lot more examples of other cultures than TCC.

Are there any good used bookstores around in Berlin? I would imagine there would be tons of them. Maybe TCC is there?


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## magentamomma

I am frustrated I don't have time to read all the past posts. I read Our babies ourselves right after TCC. I feel like they are almost companion volumes. also, I was an anthropology major before kids, and one of the things we learned was tha in the hunter/gatherer societied the work week was about 40 hrs. The rest was spent in leisure. Also, domestic violence does not exist in pre-agriculture societies. In hunter-gather culture men,women, and children all contribute to the survival of the group, however in agrarian cultures, the burden shifts to the men to feed the family and so does the power and resentment. I have always found that interesting. SH** rolling downhill starts with farming.


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## KBug

Near as I can tell, farming also marked the beginning of larger-scale human-caused environmental damage. It's not about raising children, but "A Short History of Progress" by Ronald Wright is a very interesting look at our cultural evolution and why many cultures and groups of people died out.


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## AngelBee

Checking in...


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## Devaya

Checking in too..feel I need a dose of this after hanging out with too many 'child-centred' moms lately. It's hard sometimes to hold onto the concepts when I start to feel a bit guilty for not giving DS my undivided attention as these moms seem to do 24/7... But then it's so great, lately, seeing how Ds is happy going about his business 'dusting' the floor with our feather duster, packing and unpacking the drawers in the kitchen, and even wiping spilled water with a tea towel! at 14 months









I seem to have made it through the transition from the 'in-arms' phase to now, early walking stage, and it's interesting seeing how it all unfolds. Especially the way DS seems to bump his head and hurt himself less often than some older kids I see, perhaps because I haven't hovered over him in his explorations. Still, the guilt thing comes back to haunt me, and a few pages back in this thread I see someone else brought it up too - the worry about not giving enough attention or just being somehow neglectful. Adults often talk about feeling they wish their parents had played more with them or given them more attention, and I worry that I'm going to be one of those parents, somehow.Yet being child-centred just feels so wrong to me.

I like what a PP said on this thread, though, about interacting with your child just as you would with another adult friend - so not feeling you have to talk to them constantly, or make faces at them or whatever. I find that helpful.


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## becoming

I'm just joining this thread. I hope to have time in the next few days/weeks/years







to read through the whole thread. I'm afraid to read the book, because every parenting book I've ever read has made me feel incredibly guilty about things I have/haven't done with my kids. But I do love the idea of the Continuum Concept from what I've read online and would like to learn more about it from you ladies. I'll be seeing you around.


----------



## KnitLady

Quote:


Originally Posted by *becoming* 
I'm just joining this thread. I hope to have time in the next few days/weeks/years







to read through the whole thread. I'm afraid to read the book, because every parenting book I've ever read has made me feel incredibly guilty about things I have/haven't done with my kids. But I do love the idea of the Continuum Concept from what I've read online and would like to learn more about it from you ladies. I'll be seeing you around.









We are all on a journey. It isn't necessary to spend time worrying about what we could have done differently. I'm sure you did what you thought was best at the time. I continue to grow and change as a parent and a person, which is a wonderful thing! Keep learning, and keep growing, and don't worry too much about the past.


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## Enudely

This one will freak you out if you didn't do a ton of babywearing!!


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## AngelBee

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Enudely* 
This one will freak you out if you didn't do a ton of babywearing!!


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## leila1213

I am so glad to have found this tribe! I haven't read the thread but I am 3/4 of the way through the book and absolutely thirsting for more information! I want to go visit the Yequana (or some tribe), and at the same I want to throw my DH in a river with some cement boots for how opposite he is from CC. How in the heck can I turn this ship around?


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## leila1213

Bumping so I can find this thread again as I continue to read it.


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## Materfamilias

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leila1213* 
I want to throw my DH in a river with some cement boots for how opposite he is from CC. How in the heck can I turn this ship around?

Let him read some of the book. How about the part about the newborn's experience in mainstream parenting? Not sure I could read that one again...:


----------



## leila1213

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Materfamilias* 
Let him read some of the book. How about the part about the newborn's experience in mainstream parenting? Not sure I could read that one again...:









Unfortunately it's not a question of "letting" him read it. If I want him to read it, I will have to read it TO him. We are going to each make a list of 3 things we want the other one to do as our Christmas presents, and him listening while I read it aloud is going to be at the top of my list.


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## sweetpeppers

I'm going to read every post on this thread, but not tonight. A friend of mine just lent me TCC, and I read it in two days. I am so thrilled. It is exactly what I've been looking for. My two biggest annoyances with other "AP" parents is their overprotectiveness (which runs rampant around here) and the adult behaviors that go along with being child centered. I play with my son for sure, and love it, but this book helped me realize how happy he is when I am doing useful things, like getting wood for the woodstove (which he loves, "more WOOD, more WOOD" he chants) and baking, cleaning, etc. I am so excited I found this. Will post more later.


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## leila1213

I have so many posts to ask of you all that I'm sure they won't all get answered.







But here's a quick one: I babysit as my "job/work" and take DD along with me. I usually only watch one other child at a time, usually at their home. How can I make this time less child-centered without getting myself fired?







The only thing that has come to mind is to clean the house. Any other ideas?


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## widemouthedfrog

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leila1213* 
I have so many posts to ask of you all that I'm sure they won't all get answered.







But here's a quick one: I babysit as my "job/work" and take DD along with me. I usually only watch one other child at a time, usually at their home. How can I make this time less child-centered without getting myself fired?







The only thing that has come to mind is to clean the house. Any other ideas?

How about:
* Baking
* Making lunch and dinner and any snacks
* Doing the dishes
* Doing household oriented crafts - you knit, they play with chopsticks and
yarn and pretend to knit.
* Refurbishing old objects by scrubbing them, painting them. For example, dd and I found a desk by the side of the road, washed it and painted it together. It is now in her room.
* Cutting things with scissors. Maybe bring coupons?








* Going for unstructured walks outside
* Going for "hunts" outside to bring back things for seasonal crafts and displays

If you babysit occasionally and the other child is not used to this approach, you could construct it like an activity - "hey, I'm going to bake, would anyone like to help?" When dd is feeling left out, I sometimes find that an invitation to participate in my work is what she needs.


----------



## Periwinkle

Just want to point out something that is helpful for me to think about when worrying about how to be more CC in our lives... I'm not sure I'd say you should make up things to do out of thin air. Adults should do what adults need to do to function in our society. That is the point of CC really at its heart, not trying to concoct natural-sounding or frontier-sounding chores that you don't really need to do just to find some busywork to involve your kids in. I think the key at integrating CC into a modern lifestyle - and by that I mean those of us who live in regular houses with regular jobs (either us or dh) in regular society (as opposed to say, off the grid in a yurt with 9000 acres surrounding us!) - is to live YOUR life as you need to. For me, that involves going to the grocery store, the dry cleaners, washing and drying laundry in machines, loading the dishwasher, etc etc. It's okay that these are modern things, and they are just as valuable for my kids to participate in as grinding corn on a limestone wheel or fetching water from the stream or whatever, lol. Furthermore, it would be just as preposterous for me to try to teach my kids to wash laundry on a washboard or make a hat out of tree bark, as it would be for a tribal mother in say the Amazon to worry about whether her children are getting enough experience operating machines.

So... in summary, when thinking "what can *I* do with my child that is CC?" you can ask yourself instead "what is it I need to do today" and then do it... with your kids participating or not as makes sense.


----------



## NoliMum

Hi, I'm new here.

I read the Continuum Concept several months ago- perhaps it's been a full year. I haven't "followed" it per se, but it has inspired much thinking about the way I parent.

Have you run into CC inspired moms who seem to take it a little too literally, or show unwise judgement, and then use CC as an excuse?

I had a friend (I stopped seeing her because I just cannot stand being around her because of the way she parents) who would trust her 2 year old to stay out of trouble when it was not even in the child's control. For example, one day I saw her in the parking lot buckling her baby into the carseat, and on the other side of the truck stood the 2 year old, alone. I was alarmed. I called out a good natured "Your kid's going to get herself run over!" and she said, "Oh, she knows not to cross the red line (fire lane)."

Okay, that's great that the child has shown some understanding of the rule. But this is a _parking lot_. Drivers can't always see a child in their mirrors. Red line or no red line, a car could easily just back into the child, swerve to avoid a pothole and hit her, etc... Countless scenarios went through my head none of which had anything to do with the child actually doing anything dangerous. I kept an eye on her until her mother came around to her side of the car.

I thought it could have been handled in a safer way, without disrupting her continuum. She could have put the 2 year old in the car while slinging the baby (who is in the sling all the time by the way), then shut the door and walked to the other side of the car to buckle the baby. This wouldn't be hovering, or overprotective, right?

She's been otherwise neglectful when there were easy, safer ways of going about things while staying with the CC approach. It ceases to be about the Concept when your children are in true, preventable danger, don't you think?


----------



## Enudely

I'm into the CC thing, but my dd _lives_ for me to play with her!! She hounds me constantly "mommy plaaaay with mee!" She wants me to make her farm animals or her stuffed animals talk.








It gets very boring!
She was carried in a sling all the time, but she usually _hounds_ me while I do chores!







:


----------



## leila1213

Quote:


Originally Posted by *widemouthedfrog* 
How about:
* Baking
* Making lunch and dinner and any snacks
* Doing the dishes
* Doing household oriented crafts - you knit, they play with chopsticks and
yarn and pretend to knit.
* Refurbishing old objects by scrubbing them, painting them. For example, dd and I found a desk by the side of the road, washed it and painted it together. It is now in her room.
* Cutting things with scissors. Maybe bring coupons?








* Going for unstructured walks outside
* Going for "hunts" outside to bring back things for seasonal crafts and displays

If you babysit occasionally and the other child is not used to this approach, you could construct it like an activity - "hey, I'm going to bake, would anyone like to help?" When dd is feeling left out, I sometimes find that an invitation to participate in my work is what she needs.

Thanks! I do load the dishwasher, wipe down the kitchen, sweep the floors, organize the playroom, etc. But being as I was hired as a babysitter and not a housekeeper, it is hard for me to *insist* that the family give me chores to do.  But, I can certainly make more of an effort to find things. I'm pretty sure I can find a way to bring food that I want to make, then maybe share some with the family. And I've been wanting to learn how to knit, and one of the moms just happens to knit. So...maybe a good segue somewhere in there. The 2 year olds are pretty good at entertaining themselves, since there are lots of toys at that house, but it isn't always the most CC kind of play. (The boy I babysit is obsessed with Thomas trains and just pushes them around in a circle insessently.) We had success with playdoh today when I gave DD lots of tools to use--usually it's always "Make XX for me!! I don't know how to do it!" So that was encouraging and maybe she can model that for the other child. The infant I sit is usually pretty content watching me do things, like fold the laundry, but I just run out of things to do. I like the unstructured or "hunting" walks idea.


----------



## widemouthedfrog

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 
Adults should do what adults need to do to function in our society.

So... in summary, when thinking "what can *I* do with my child that is CC?" you can ask yourself instead "what is it I need to do today" and then do it... with your kids participating or not as makes sense.

Yup. That's pretty much what I do, though I also think about things that dd and I like to do together. These might be housework or errand sorts of activities or other activities like going to the farm. Dd is so-so about going to meetings with me. That entirely depends on how good the snacks are at the meeting. Active things are much easier to be cc about, methinks.

I do like the idea of living in a yurt with a hat made of tree bark, though. I'll work on it. Although I don't think our yard is large enough for a yurt.









Leila, I've found that since one of my major goals is to get dd outside a lot (similar to the forest kindergarten idea), we've been doing some unstructured outdoor time and some structured outdoor time - for example, with me finding branches for holiday decorating. It works well. I think that kids naturally follow the parents, wander around a bit on their own and explore, engage with an adult to show off a find, ask you what you're doing...etc.


----------



## Devaya

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 
Just want to point out something that is helpful for me to think about when worrying about how to be more CC in our lives... I'm not sure I'd say you should make up things to do out of thin air. Adults should do what adults need to do to function in our society. That is the point of CC really at its heart, not trying to concoct natural-sounding or frontier-sounding chores that you don't really need to do just to find some busywork to involve your kids in. I think the key at integrating CC into a modern lifestyle - and by that I mean those of us who live in regular houses with regular jobs (either us or dh) in regular society (as opposed to say, off the grid in a yurt with 9000 acres surrounding us!) - is to live YOUR life as you need to. For me, that involves going to the grocery store, the dry cleaners, washing and drying laundry in machines, loading the dishwasher, etc etc. It's okay that these are modern things, and they are just as valuable for my kids to participate in as grinding corn on a limestone wheel or fetching water from the stream or whatever, lol. Furthermore, it would be just as preposterous for me to try to teach my kids to wash laundry on a washboard or make a hat out of tree bark, as it would be for a tribal mother in say the Amazon to worry about whether her children are getting enough experience operating machines.

So... in summary, when thinking "what can *I* do with my child that is CC?" you can ask yourself instead "what is it I need to do today" and then do it... with your kids participating or not as makes sense.

Thanks for this, Periwinkle, it's very helpful. I've been worrying about the fact that I am just *not* a very 'crafty', practical person, and I WOULD feel like I was doing things 'for the sake of it' just to look busy, if I suddenly started knitting or whatever. I think it's a very valid point that those of us who DO live 'in the grid', in the city and so on, shouldn't feel inferior bc we are teaching our children the skills you need to live in the city! at the same time I try to expose DS to 'nature' as much as possible, and explain trees and things to him, and if I had a car I'd love to take him to farms and things!

So...I usually just take DS around with me, whatever I'm doing, in the sling for as much as possible (tho he's getting too heavy to do this for long anymore), and at home he now 'washes dishes' (scrubs his own, non-breakable bowls etc in a washing up bowl - no water as he just tips that all over the floor), and he has his own miniature mop, dustpan and brush, and broom that he LOVES using. It's amazing to see how when I sweep up a spillage now, he gets out his own gear and joins in! He's only 15 months old.But a lot of the time he is playing around me with his toys (including household objects) and involving me periodically in his play, e.g. reading stories to him. So...it's really a mixture, but I think the main thing that I've learned is that I go about my day as I normally would, and DS is just part of that.


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## NoliMum

Just wondering if anyone has an opinion about my previous post (#858). I wasn't trying to insult any CC'ers, after all I am trying CC in my own way, but I wanted to know how you felt about the situation.


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## Periwinkle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaya* 
I think it's a very valid point that those of us who DO live 'in the grid', in the city and so on, shouldn't feel inferior bc we are teaching our children the skills you need to live in the city! at the same time I try to expose DS to 'nature' as much as possible

Absolutely. And I also am in total agreement that living in the city (or suburbia, etc.) means needing to work a little harder to expose our kids to nature... green spaces, woods, playing in the mud and dirt, etc. I think this is extremely critical. I'm glad you mentioned this, because I didn't mean to imply in my previous post that it's okay to sit inside and play computer games and eat TV dinners just because we live in a city or something.







I mean, clearly that is not good for anyone.

*********
*NoliMum* - I was going to respond earlier. But I was set to agree with you and then your example made me question whether I really did. Can you explain more what you mean?

For example, I have had people FUHREAK on me because I'll say "oh he will not run into the street" or whatever and people assume because my child is 3 that of course he will, and it annoys me because I'm like, no actually he won't. I have also gotten major flack from family members when a toddler runs away a short distance and they yell "Run after him!" and I say something like "no way... he'll come back" because the last thing I want to do is run after a child running away from me (talk about teaching them the wrong thing).

But I do think that someone could go to a ridiculous extreme, for example, with regard to something like electricity or cords. Humans have no continuum experience with such a hazard and expecting a child not to touch something that in no way looks/smells/sounds/feels like a threat (e.g., like a plug or cord) makes ZERO sense. So of course I bought outlet covers and such, because how in the world would my toddlers stay away from such a thing - it's not like a roaring blaze that you can feel it hot from 10 feet away. And I think crossing the street is actually really tricky for young children to do... and if you think about it, it's not like children in "primitive" (CC-referenced) cultures had tons of experience with stampeding rhinos. If they did, they likely were trampled.

I think a lot of it has to do with the parent(s) being respected by the child as someone who should be listened to, so that when you say "this orange mushroom is poisonous and is not to be touched - it will kill you if you eat it..." they don't. Buy a book on mushrooms if you want, but at the end of the day, the child needs to see that you're serious and know what you're talking about. Also, saying "do not touch this" or "stay away from that" (or even "no!") must also be phrases that are not uttered for stupid little things, but for serious concerns.


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## leila1213

On the safety topic, today we had a "close" call. We are visiting my parents and my dad had some mulch loaded up in the car. We were all going out to watch him and my brother spread it around. He grabbed the keys to the car and I assumed he was going to pull it out of the trunk. DD and I walked into the alley behind the car and I was looking at the person's driveway across from my parents while DD was eating an apple behind me. Suddenly she came up next to me. Didn't make a peep or act weird or anything. But then here comes my dad's car right up behind me and almost backs into me. HE WOULD HAVE HIT DD IF SHE HADN'T MOVED CALMLY AND SWIFTLY OUT OF THE WAY! OMG! He was so freaked out when I told him what happened. I was too! But I didn't want to scare DD or "turn off" her instincts by giving her the impression that what she did was unexpected (ie, anti-social, kwim??). So I tried to stay low-key while I had a heart attack and told everyone what happened (hopefully in a way that DD didn't notice). Phew!!

On another note, I was wondering about books. Forgive me if the topic has already come up on the thread. I'm only 1/3 of the way through it. I believe it has been mentioned that reading to your child is not CC. So do you just do it anyway, or do you try to find a different way to expose them to books? Do you just read your own books and talk about them if the LO asks? I was thinking maybe you could read adult books aloud whenever they are interested in hearing/participating. But as far as their own books, maybe you could get children's books that have only pictures, so that the child doesn't need help interpreting them? Just wondering what everyone's take is on that.


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## rajouta

I'm so happy to have found a CC tribe here! I haven't read the whole thread yet, but look forward to before asking any questions... I just read the CC a few months ago, and have read all the articles on the CC website. I've also read Our Babies Ourselves, which, I think complements the CC very well... Anyway, looking forward to learning more...


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## Periwinkle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leila1213* 
I believe it has been mentioned that reading to your child is not CC. So do you just do it anyway, or do you try to find a different way to expose them to books? Do you just read your own books and talk about them if the LO asks? I was thinking maybe you could read adult books aloud whenever they are interested in hearing/participating. But as far as their own books, maybe you could get children's books that have only pictures, so that the child doesn't need help interpreting them? Just wondering what everyone's take is on that.

Ohhh I would have some real questions for someone saying reading to a child is not CC. In our culture, reading is pretty important, lol. I mean, it's the foundation for all learning and work that occurs throughout life. Anyone who has issues with reading aloud should be asked if reading itself is CC. You could argue that it's not. Computers certainly are not CC. Nor is electricity really. I mean, the argument could be made (and has) that it's important to keep children away from anything invented since 2500 B.C. I think the issue is that books did not exist 5000 years ago or in remote tribes in South America. And therefore some people assume that this means reading books is not something best done with children. I'd tend to agree with them if they were raising their children 5000 years ago or in a remote tribe in South America. But to function even in a small way in modern society, you need to read. That means gaining an understanding of and appreciation for books. Since books are something that can be pretty easily integrated into a CC lifestyle and there's a wide range of choices available to keep the illustrations and stories "natural" (for lack of a better word), I don't see the problem with it. In fact I have found books by such authors as Elsa Beskow, Patricia Pollaco, Cynthia Rylant, and others to be important tools at fostering more natural-minded or CC ideals and behaviors in our household.


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## NoliMum

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 

*********
*NoliMum* - I was going to respond earlier. But I was set to agree with you and then your example made me question whether I really did. Can you explain more what you mean?

For example, I have had people FUHREAK on me because I'll say "oh he will not run into the street" or whatever and people assume because my child is 3 that of course he will, and it annoys me because I'm like, no actually he won't. I have also gotten major flack from family members when a toddler runs away a short distance and they yell "Run after him!" and I say something like "no way... he'll come back" because the last thing I want to do is run after a child running away from me (talk about teaching them the wrong thing).

But I do think that someone could go to a ridiculous extreme, for example, with regard to something like electricity or cords. Humans have no continuum experience with such a hazard and expecting a child not to touch something that in no way looks/smells/sounds/feels like a threat (e.g., like a plug or cord) makes ZERO sense. So of course I bought outlet covers and such, because how in the world would my toddlers stay away from such a thing - it's not like a roaring blaze that you can feel it hot from 10 feet away. And I think crossing the street is actually really tricky for young children to do... and if you think about it, it's not like children in "primitive" (CC-referenced) cultures had tons of experience with stampeding rhinos. If they did, they likely were trampled.

I think a lot of it has to do with the parent(s) being respected by the child as someone who should be listened to, so that when you say "this orange mushroom is poisonous and is not to be touched - it will kill you if you eat it..." they don't. Buy a book on mushrooms if you want, but at the end of the day, the child needs to see that you're serious and know what you're talking about. Also, saying "do not touch this" or "stay away from that" (or even "no!") must also be phrases that are not uttered for stupid little things, but for serious concerns.

Well, i think one thing I should have clarified is that she does not practice CC fully or thoroughly. Her child has not exhibited instincts toward safety when I've been around, and she is not in full custody of her mother, so any CC that she is exposed to kind of goes out the window as soon as she returns to the father's home (he is decidedly mainstream).

It's like she read the book, liked what it said, and so decided to implement some of the methods in random parts of her life, whichever was convenient.

This is my question, I guess- is it even possible to do CC when you know you can't fully implement it throughout the child's entire spectrum of life? I mean, can you do CC in the home (doing everyday tasks and letting the child participate/imitate and avoiding a child-centered schedule) while using different methods for, say, outdoor activities? Generally when we are outdoors it is specifically to go to the playground, and I KNOW my child enough to take precautions against her running away, because it's currently her favorite game.

Or, the way my friend was trying to do it (and a significantly more dangerous arrangement, IMO)-- NOT doing CC in the home, but trying to practice it when in unsafe environments like the parking lot? I don't think it is wise or safe to assume that because you read and understand the Continuum Concept, that if you just start _doing_ it, whenever you feel like, your child will automatically fall into step, KWIM? I mean, this kid's continuum was waaaay disrupted already.


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## widemouthedfrog

Nolimum, in regards to doing cc part time:

Dh is very child-centred and plays with dd a lot, and when he goes to the playground with her he gives her a lot of "be careful" messages. Dh's parents are totally focused on dd and playing with her when they do child care once a week.

My parents are actually more cc, as am I. Dh and I tag-team a lot during the year and dd seems to adapt to each of our styles, with the dominant style being mine, since I am the primary caregiver. But when daddy is home she wants to play with him and he has a hard time doing things around the house. When I am home she alternates between doing things around the house/reading/wrestling with me, heading out to events/the park with both of us or one of us, and playing pretend games with daddy.

The only difficulty we've had so far is that dd prefers her child-centred grandparents because they play with her all of the time and feed her treats that she likes. Also, I find that dd's confidence on playground structures is not very high because she receives a lot of "be careful" messaging. However, she's never been very confident in large motor skills, and that may also just be her personality.

I also think that we have a child who is naturally fairly cautious. I might be more concerned about things like traffic if I saw that she was keen to run out into it.

I think that while reading books might not be very cc, telling stories is part of all cultures. In our culture, we tell a lot of stories by reading them from books out loud to our kids. This is part of our oral tradition.


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## EnviroBecca

Leila, I'm glad your daughter is safe!







When EnviroKid or one of my Girl Scouts does something "right" like that, the way I talk about it is to praise their wise action. In this case, I'd say, "I was so scared when I saw the car moving fast, right where you had been a moment before! I'm glad you moved out of the way!"

NoliMum, it might help to explain to your friend that your concern is not with her child's behavior--you understand that her mom can trust her not to run into traffic--but with the unpredictable behavior of cars. Here's an analogy: Suppose a Yequana mother is bathing her infant and toddler in the river and then will need to carry them one at a time up the cliff because it's too steep for the child's short legs and she can't carry both at once. Should she leave the child standing in the river while she carries baby up the cliff? The child has good instincts, but she might be swept away by the current. It would be safer to lift her onto the bank and have her stand there while mama carries the baby. (The equivalent in a parking lot would be having the child climb into the car and wait for mama to fasten her seatbelt.)

I think it's entirely possible to practice CC only some of the time, based on my own experience: My son has been in childcare a significant portion of his life since 3 months old, and childcare is child-centered and "unnatural" in many ways. Yet he's a very continuum kid and (although of course he now has his own opinions, and he's much more assertive than a Yequana child) shows great instincts and desire to be a useful participant in family activities.

Enudely wrote:

Quote:

She hounds me constantly "mommy plaaaay with mee!" She wants me to make her farm animals or her stuffed animals talk.
It gets very boring!
She was carried in a sling all the time, but she usually hounds me while I do chores!








: We have some of this too. I think the biggest factor is that, at home, EnviroKid has no other kids to play with. He wants to be engaged with another person at all times, so when there are no kids around, an adult is the only choice. When we DO have kids over, he'll happily play with them and not badger me or his dad.

About reading to kids: I bet the Yequana, like most primitive cultures, do lots of story-telling, and I bet some of their stories are specifically made to please and teach children. Reading is just another form of story-telling.


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## EnviroBecca

I just wrote this about yesterday's experiences with balancing parent and child needs, doing chores, and letting my child develop his navigational skills.


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## sweetpeppers

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommaof3* 
I noticed that the less I ASK my children to help, the more they help. They help NOT to please me but just because it feels good, because they want to contribute to the well-being of the family (we ALL do!). One of the basic premises of TCC in my mind is that children are social creatures who desire to contribute in meaningful ways, and the other is that we westerners have given the word/concept of WORK a bad name, unnecessarily. Work is wonderful, fun, etc. and meets a very real need (in all of us) to contribute.

My kids do lots around the house, in the garden, the workshop, etc. but I don't ASK or tell them to, ever. I just do what I need to do, modeling is SO powerful -I expect them to help (just hand my son his rake, or hand my daughter a grocery bag, wordlessly) and I don't make a big deal if they choose to help or choose not to...saying "oh, thank you so much for helping", etc. makes it seem like they did something UNUSUAL, that you didn't expect them to do, ya know?

I totally agree. I'm 24, and I'm just learning the help out to be helpful, rather than because someone is forcing me (because now no one is forcing me), and it's much, much more enjoyable.


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## Periwinkle

Well, I don't know. I mean, it's kind of like AP. Can you suddenly become AP with a 12 year-old? Can you consider a baby "raised AP" who spends every other week with its mainstream father? Even if the mother cosleeps and pumps her milk for the father to bottlefeed etc. These are good questions. I'd think the answer is actually no, or at least "maybe but you could die trying". But I will get in hot water for saying it I'm sure.

I mean, the whole idea with AP is that you do these things from birth... the constant babywearing, cosleeping, breastfeeding on demand, etc. Of the 9 or whatever odd items on the AP checklist, only what 1 or 2 apply to children over age 3ish. It's pretty clearly something intended to be done constantly from birth.

It's the same with CC. All of a sudden deciding that you're going to stop paying attention to your child and no longer playing with her or getting down on the floor with her is beyond harsh and unreasonable, because their experience of attachment and definition of love is already set in stone that mom does x, y, or z, and they have not been taught the safety or expectation of looking out for themselves. I do think to a large extent that you cannot fully be CC (or AP for that matter) if you arrive too late to the party.

That being said, of course you can do natural things and crunchy things and adult-centered things... but that is hardly the extent of what it means to raise a child CC.

And as for the running away... children do not run from parents who have raised them CC from the start. Because the child is taught from infancy that the child has responsibility to close the gap, that the imaginary rubber band connecting parent and child gets stretched so far and then the child must bounce back (as opposed to having the adult chase the child, go get the child, call to the child, and/or yell at the child to stop, etc.). I would never in a million years START any sort of safety-oriented CC thing at any point other than in infancy. When I babysit for other people's toddlers for example (e.g., my neices or nephews), I absolutely run after them if they wander too far and hold their hands securely in parking lots, etc. Precisely because I know they are not being CC'd at home. You surely can't "spring" that kind of expectation on a child, and I'm not sure they could even really be taught it later in life.... it just becomes a real instinct. Children only run (or wander) away from parents when they are taught that the parents will close the gap for them and/or when they are taught that it is a fun game.


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## brinalicious

This has been such an interesting thread to read. Thank you for all of your comments. I wanted to throw another piece in the mix here when it comes to CC and AP. My husband and I have parented according to many of these principles not because they were part of some systematic parenting philosophy, wherein you follow all of the rules for the sake of following them, but because it seemed intuitive to us. That said, I wanted to ask what kind of response you have had from other people that clearly do not know that what you are doing is deliberate and not the result of ignorance or neglect. We live in such a hypersensitive world, and other parents who may be very child-centered can sometimes seem shocked when you let your kid climb into the shopping cart by themselves, or choose not to eat breakfast, or whatever. I have had a few encounters with people who think I am just being irresponsible when I let me sons do things that might incur some hurt, etc. Of course, I am not willing to let my kids learn consequentially in situations where the consequence may be death or something very severe (i.e. crossing the street in front of a car), but I sure am going to let my kids learn that if they don't brush their teeth they'll get cavities and that really hurts, or that if you don't eat breakfast then you will feel bad when you get to school, etc. What do you moms/dads do about other people's reactions? I am not a confrontational person, but I am not averse to telling someone _why_ I am making the decision that I am. Anyone else?


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## NoliMum

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 
Well, I don't know. I mean, it's kind of like AP. Can you suddenly become AP with a 12 year-old? Can you consider a baby "raised AP" who spends every other week with its mainstream father? Even if the mother cosleeps and pumps her milk for the father to bottlefeed etc. These are good questions. I'd think the answer is actually no, or at least "maybe but you could die trying". But I will get in hot water for saying it I'm sure.

I mean, the whole idea with AP is that you do these things from birth... the constant babywearing, cosleeping, breastfeeding on demand, etc. Of the 9 or whatever odd items on the AP checklist, only what 1 or 2 apply to children over age 3ish. It's pretty clearly something intended to be done constantly from birth.

It's the same with CC. All of a sudden deciding that you're going to stop paying attention to your child and no longer playing with her or getting down on the floor with her is beyond harsh and unreasonable, because their experience of attachment and definition of love is already set in stone that mom does x, y, or z, and they have not been taught the safety or expectation of looking out for themselves. I do think to a large extent that you cannot fully be CC (or AP for that matter) if you arrive too late to the party.



That's exactly what I was thinking. My friend practiced plenty of AP when her daughter was an infant, but whatever CC methods she picked up from the book were inconsistently practiced. Then all of a sudden she's leaving her kid out of view in a parking lot. I can't really do anythin about it now (plus it was a year ago) because we're not friends anymore, but this always bothered me.

As for my kid, she is almost 3 and I haven't done much CC except for AP stuff. I slung her a lot as a baby, but after about a year she was too heavy for me (25 lbs!!) to carry for long. I feel like I'm paying for it now though because she asks me to carry her ALL the time. She will not take no for an answer, even if my hands are full. She also rarely closes the gap between us, and will run away from me. I don't feel totally awful about this- I mean, not everyone knows about CC, and I'm glad I knew about AP at least!! But I'm wondering how to implement CC safely now..


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## boigrrrlwonder

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoliMum* 
That's exactly what I was thinking. My friend practiced plenty of AP when her daughter was an infant, but whatever CC methods she picked up from the book were inconsistently practiced. Then all of a sudden she's leaving her kid out of view in a parking lot. I can't really do anythin about it now (plus it was a year ago) because we're not friends anymore, but this always bothered me.

As for my kid, she is almost 3 and I haven't done much CC except for AP stuff. I slung her a lot as a baby, but after about a year she was too heavy for me (25 lbs!!) to carry for long. I feel like I'm paying for it now though because she asks me to carry her ALL the time. She will not take no for an answer, even if my hands are full. She also rarely closes the gap between us, and will run away from me. I don't feel totally awful about this- I mean, not everyone knows about CC, and I'm glad I knew about AP at least!! But I'm wondering how to implement CC safely now..

That's where I'm at, too. I came to CC somewhere between a year and a year and a half. Not too late, but my kiddo still runs away from me, still wants me to entertain her, etc... And I came to CC because I really do think that AP without CC is not healthy - for the child and for the family. So, it's sort of like, okay - if this needs to be started in infancy and I obviously didn't: now what? What's possible to do and what's not? How do we switch to a family-centered dynamic when we started with a child-centered dynamic without it being harsh? I have a few ideas from my experience - but especially since I'm hoping to get pregnant again, I don't want to make this mistake with another one - but is it possible to raise once kid CC and one not?


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## widemouthedfrog

nolimum, I am thinking of a little boy I know who has a very firm agenda of what he wants to do. However, since I don't know him too well, if he heads towards somewhere dangerous like a busy street I am not always sure if he will stop, so I would go after him. I'd probably walk, though. In your dd's case, perhaps practice letting her go in a safer environment? A local park, or a field where you can see?

I agree with periwinkle that running can be a game. Indeed, the only time dd ran from me, she thought that we were playing a chasing game and ran towards a bus stop where a bus was coming in. We often play a sneaking and hiding game at a ramp and some stairs near the bank, and she was extending it by running away.

I've always let her roam, and I've always found that she will come back. However, I do think that different children have different levels of self-directedness when it comes to roaming. The little guy mentioned above has a very strong internal agenda of where he is going, and he takes a while to stop. He also gets quite focused on his internal monologue and less focused on what is around him.

Another thought on literacy. If we had to hunt and gather food, we would teach our children animal sounds and what they mean and give them an understanding of the visual recognition of different plant and animal species. We'd teach them how to decode those cues in their environment. For me, the same goes for reading - it's also teaching our children to decode the cues that they need to move in a more urbanized and literate world.


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## leila1213

I just want to clarify that I wasn't saying that we shouldn't teach kids to read (or really, from an unschooling perspective--LET kids learn to read), but just that the child-centered activity of sitting and reading a children's book to them is not very CC. My idea was that modeling reading of adult books and even reading them aloud would be more CC. No one agree with that? So then I was just extending it to allow them to have their own books but just with pictures so they don't feel like we need to read TO them, kwim? They could read their books independently but also see & hear us read in the course of our daily lives...in context, doing what we need to do. Isn't that CC?


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## widemouthedfrog

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leila1213* 
I just want to clarify that I wasn't saying that we shouldn't teach kids to read (or really, from an unschooling perspective--LET kids learn to read), but just that the child-centered activity of sitting and reading a children's book to them is not very CC.

For some reason I am obsessed with this thread lately!

I think that my perspective comes from the fact that I do storytelling for groups of children and adults as part of my job. I see stories as things that gather people together to share information, lessons and insights that are relevant for all ages. In my story times, I do dances and songs, poetry that was written for adults, picture books that were written for children. People have always told stories at gatherings, it's just that we often lack those sorts of tribal gatherings nowadays. So the best we can do is to tell stories in our home or gather at a library, church, or other place to listen to and tell stories.

brinalicious asked a question about people's responses to cc parenting. I was lucky in that both of my parents were raised in a family-centred context. One grew up on a farm and the other in a village of about 200 people. They were able to wander quite freely and found their own things to do with children of different ages. When we were looking for a place to live, I really wanted to live in the townhouse complex we currently live in. It has an open area in the middle and many of the children come out to the central area and play on the playground and in the trees while the parents stay indoors and don't have to hover around the children.

I feel that the pressure to be successful has led people to register their children in many activities, reduce the amount of free play with neighborhood children, reduce the amount of individual imaginative play, and therefore not trust children to do things like crack an egg - because they've never been asked to do so.

I also think that there is a growing movement of people who want their children to be less structured and to walk to school by themselves, build forts with neighborhood kids, have the community in general watch over children. I think that this is what cc could look like in our communities today.

Anyway, I think that if you approach any concerns with the idea that children used to have huge freedom of movement, a supportive community where people looked out for each other...you might get a good response. I would like the children in my community to have the ability to learn from all adults in that community, to be cared for by different adults in the community, and to play freely - and I see that cc-ish parenting builds that.

Wow! Big rant!

Question: Do you work or volunteer with your children? I do, but I find that I have to be strategic about how dd will be involved. I find it quite challenging to teach adults while dd is there, for example. It was much easier when she was a baby and I could put her on my back and she'd nap during a meeting!


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## EnviroBecca

Leila wrote:

Quote:

just that the child-centered activity of sitting and reading a children's book to them is not very CC. My idea was that modeling reading of adult books and even reading them aloud would be more CC. No one agree with that? So then I was just extending it to allow them to have their own books but just with pictures so they don't feel like we need to read TO them, kwim? They could read their books independently but also see & hear us read in the course of our daily lives...in context, doing what we need to do. Isn't that CC?
Sure, that's CC, and modeling reading and sharing what we're reading are important for building literacy. However, as a developmental psychologist, I must say that there's a difference between paging through a book looking at pictures and reading a book, and that children generally are very aware of that. (Sometimes kids pretend to read by reciting a memorized story or making up a story while paging through a book, but in most cases they KNOW that they're not really reading.) Even if a book has only pictures and no words, and looking at it is enjoyable and educational, that is not reading; it's a different activity.

I think when you say that reading a child a book of her choice is not CC, you're thinking that EVER doing ANYthing a child instigates is child-centered and that's bad. But children are people, and when we interact with another person we sometimes do things for her that she would like us to do, whether or not she can do them for herself. There's mention in the book of playing with babies, and of nurturing behavior toward people of all ages.

I've been reading chapter books (written for older children or adults, with few or no illustrations) to my son when he'd stand for it. He wouldn't from about 12 to 30 months, but then he was interested enough in a particular book that I could keep going after the first page with a picture on it, and now he routinely enjoys chapter books. I read him _The Hobbit_ just before his 4th birthday.

Whether chapter books or picture books, I think that sharing with my child stories I (and in some cases my parents) enjoyed as a child builds a common culture and prevents a generation gap.


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## jrose_lee

All this talk about reading has inspired me to ask something that I was wondering about before.

What about Continuum Concept and Homeschooling? Obviously during the day there are many opportunities to do what you need to do and have your children help or play.

I guess my question is.....is unschooling the only option for homeschooling that would seem CC? Or would a curriculum work as well?

Or is homeschooling just in a whole different world than CC and too difficult to relate it to that? Obviously, the Yequena (sp?) tribe did not do homeschooling as many people do today, but instead the children learned how to do tasks when they were ready etc.

Just would be interested on hearing thoughts!


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## kolleen9

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jrose_lee* 
All this talk about reading has inspired me to ask something that I was wondering about before.

What about Continuum Concept and Homeschooling? Obviously during the day there are many opportunities to do what you need to do and have your children help or play.

We homeschool and I love TCC. I do not see them as mutually exclusive. Although we unschooled for the first 10 years, I definitely think you can practice a form of eclectic schooling without defying the basics of TCC.

Kolleen


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## NoliMum

so what do you do when you are trying to incorporate the CC into your 3-yo's life but she resists? We bought her a little wooden toolset for Christmas so she can do her own handiwork throughout the house while I am doing mine (we just moved in so I'm hanging a lot of pictures, etc.), but the entire time she just whined about wanting the "real tools" that I was using. She's a little young to be handling hammers and nails, esp since she hasn't been raised with CC so she doesn't have those "safety instincts" intact.

Also, I did wear her a lot until she was about a year old, when she became too heavy- but I didn't stop carrying her. Only when I had my hands full did I refuse. She spent a lot of time just hanging out on my person in general.







Yet now, at almost 3, she still cries for me to carry her ALL the time. Even inside our apartment, she will cry if I don't carry her to and from the kitchen, bedroom, etc. She does have her "walk by myself" moments but they are usually pretty short, unless she happens to be in the mood to run around (and away from me!), which is only a couple times a day.

How can I fulfill her need to be close and carried but do CC stuff that assumes her independence??


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## Periwinkle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoliMum* 
so what do you do when you are trying to incorporate the CC into your 3-yo's life but she resists? We bought her a little wooden toolset for Christmas so she can do her own handiwork throughout the house while I am doing mine (we just moved in so I'm hanging a lot of pictures, etc.), but the entire time she just whined about wanting the "real tools" that I was using.

Playing with toys designed to look like grown-ups' tools and appliances is definitely NOT CC. The whole point is allowing kids to do real work, not playing at doing work.

My 3 year-old is allowed to use a screwdriver, change batteries, sand wood, paint, etc. He helps dh "bleed" the radiators in the fall and he is learning how to make a fire in the woodstove (crinkling newspaper, laying kindling into a cool stove, etc.

If working with tools isn't a good idea due to your safety concerns, allow her to help you clean. She can do REAL cleaning, make beds, fold washcloths, vaccum, dustpan and brush crumbs after meals, do dishes, and of course the super-fun water-filled spritz bottle and old diaper cloth to dust.

I think the idea to keep in mind is not inventing trivial or fake things for the kids to do, but figuring out how to actually involve them in the real work of the household.

I hope that helps.


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## kolleen9

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoliMum* 
so what do you do when you are trying to incorporate the CC into your 3-yo's life but she resists? We bought her a little wooden toolset for Christmas so she can do her own handiwork throughout the house while I am doing mine (we just moved in so I'm hanging a lot of pictures, etc.), but the entire time she just whined about wanting the "real tools" that I was using. She's a little young to be handling hammers and nails, esp since she hasn't been raised with CC so she doesn't have those "safety instincts" intact.

The nice fact is that she noticed the difference which shows you that she is paying attention to details.

How about sitting with her and getting a few nails and working with her? If she wants to handle it, make sure she's wearing some "gear" and have your hands right there was she tries to do it. As she gets better due to practice and aging, the both of you will feel comfortable.

Then when it's "your turn" to use the tools in the house, ask her to do something else while you hang pictures since they are higher and she can't reach. I usually offered suggestions for my son and let him offer his own.

Your house is the community and if there's only one hammer, you have to share ;-)

-Kolleen


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## Surfacing

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoliMum* 
How can I fulfill her need to be close and carried but do CC stuff that assumes her independence??

This was us too. We slowly got dd1 out of wanting to be carried *all*the*time* by doing the "big girl" thing... she's a big girl, she can walk, and eat chocolate, and go swimming with her friends, not like her baby sister...But when she just NEEDED to be held, needed some close time, I would let her sit on my lap while I did internet banking, or come and cook with me, or sit and read her a book and cuddle. Or I'd tell her "okay, I'll hold you for 5 minutes while I'm working but then you have to go find something to do". To my surprise, it works, she seems satisfied with that. I hope there's something here that you can take? Good luck!


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## NoliMum

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 
Playing with toys designed to look like grown-ups' tools and appliances is definitely NOT CC. The whole point is allowing kids to do real work, not playing at doing work.

I think the idea to keep in mind is not inventing trivial or fake things for the kids to do, but figuring out how to actually involve them in the real work of the household.

I hope that helps.









I see that, and I do try to get her to do real work, also- but usually she resists. We got the play tools because of the safety concern; usually I let her use anything I'm using except sharps. She has started to notice that small things fit into outlets and handing her a screwdriver just seemed like a bad idea.


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## PrincessDoll

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 
I think the idea to keep in mind is not inventing trivial or fake things for the kids to do, but figuring out how to actually involve them in the real work of the household.

I hope that helps.









I agree about the idea of involving the child in the real work of the household. It is about including the child within the family dynamic instead of placing them in a seperate 'component' from the family if they are not wanting that. If the family is moving (as we did recently), there are so many positive reasons to involve one's child in the actual work of the move. Including packing, moving items to the truck, unloading, putting things away, hanging things up, etc. Not only does it helps them feel useful and teach them about life in the "tribe" but it can also be quite therapeutic for the young child's spirit in times of major change.

There are hammers that are real hammers just made for smaller hands that may help ease a parent's safety worries (as most young children have a hard time manipulating a standard adult's hammer properly as it can be quite heavy). I am referring to tools such as these. The child is still able to perform actual work around the house with tools that are more conducive to their size.


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## Periwinkle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoliMum* 
I see that, and I do try to get her to do real work, also- but usually she resists. We got the play tools because of the safety concern; usually I let her use anything I'm using except sharps. She has started to notice that small things fit into outlets and handing her a screwdriver just seemed like a bad idea.

I would get outlet covers a.s.a.p. if you don't have them already. But aside from that, I wouldn't hand her a tool without teaching her how to use it properly and then supervising its use at first. I think your intent was totally spot on just that the pretend tools thing isn't going over well on your child because she still has that innate sense of wanting to be CC... she wants the real deal.


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## NoliMum

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Surfacing* 
This was us too. We slowly got dd1 out of wanting to be carried *all*the*time* by doing the "big girl" thing... she's a big girl, she can walk, and eat chocolate, and go swimming with her friends, not like her baby sister...But when she just NEEDED to be held, needed some close time, I would let her sit on my lap while I did internet banking, or come and cook with me, or sit and read her a book and cuddle. Or I'd tell her "okay, I'll hold you for 5 minutes while I'm working but then you have to go find something to do". To my surprise, it works, she seems satisfied with that. I hope there's something here that you can take? Good luck!









I tried a little of that today.







It just drives me nuts that she is perfectly capable of walking alongside me, but she refuses! I feel like we would be so much more in sync if she'd just walk with me, holding hands, and work beside me... She is constantly needing me to carry her and play with her though. I say, "Let's fold laundry," or "Let's cook dinner," and she says "No Mommy, let's go in my room and play!" I end up playing for 10-15 minutes and then go back to my work, alone. When she truly does want to be a part of my work, it's always when I'm doing the most dangerous stuff!!

The other suggestions were helpful, too. I'm going to order outlet covers tonight (we already have them but they are the little flat ones and she knows how to unplug the cords now, so we need the box type covers that hold the cord in place) so that will help a little.

This is a little off topic, but does anyone have suggestions on needle felting with a small child? I felt as a hobby, and although I'm more than happy to let her play with the wool, I can't give her the needles. Maybe a big knitting needle or something? But she seems disappointed when her wool doesn't felt up like mine.


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## leila1213

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoliMum* 
I tried a little of that today.







It just drives me nuts that she is perfectly capable of walking alongside me, but she refuses! I feel like we would be so much more in sync if she'd just walk with me, holding hands, and work beside me... She is constantly needing me to carry her and play with her though. I say, "Let's fold laundry," or "Let's cook dinner," and she says "No Mommy, let's go in my room and play!" I end up playing for 10-15 minutes and then go back to my work, alone. When she truly does want to be a part of my work, it's always when I'm doing the most dangerous stuff!!


I have found that different expectations needed to be set up, and sometimes that means some sadness/frustration/anger from DD. I need to be very firm and not wishy-washy with DD or she will sense that I am looking to her for direction and will do the same thing. If I just put my foot down and insist that I have things I need to do, and she can either watch, help or play on her own, then she will. If she doesn't, and has a meltdown over the new rules, then it's usually time for a nap anyway. That's been our experience over the last few weeks.

ETA: There is a good article on the CC website about this, called "Who's In Charge?" It really helped me reframe my perspective and realize that the child may be frustrated for a short time when I assert my authority, but it is better than the long-term battles from leading them to believe that they are the decision-maker, which is very confusing to them and I would daresay even harmful to their development. HTH!


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## boigrrrlwonder

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoliMum* 
I tried a little of that today.







It just drives me nuts that she is perfectly capable of walking alongside me, but she refuses! I feel like we would be so much more in sync if she'd just walk with me, holding hands, and work beside me... She is constantly needing me to carry her and play with her though. I say, "Let's fold laundry," or "Let's cook dinner," and she says "No Mommy, let's go in my room and play!" I end up playing for 10-15 minutes and then go back to my work, alone. When she truly does want to be a part of my work, it's always when I'm doing the most dangerous stuff!!

The other suggestions were helpful, too. I'm going to order outlet covers tonight (we already have them but they are the little flat ones and she knows how to unplug the cords now, so we need the box type covers that hold the cord in place) so that will help a little.

This is a little off topic, but does anyone have suggestions on needle felting with a small child? I felt as a hobby, and although I'm more than happy to let her play with the wool, I can't give her the needles. Maybe a big knitting needle or something? But she seems disappointed when her wool doesn't felt up like mine.

When DD asks me to play, I generally bring something out that she can do in the room I'm working in (I do find that proximity makes it more likely that she'll want to get involved in my work, though I'm fine if she doesn't, either). Sometimes she wants me to play with her, though. What I've been trying to do lately is sit near her, but work on my crafting (right now, knitting). Whether I'm involved in my own work or sitting near her crafting, I talk to her about what I'm doing, what she's doing, etc... that way she's getting attention, but it's not focused on her.

When it comes down to it, though, we are a only child nuclear family, not living tribally. So I think it's appropriate for me to be her playmate sometimes, since there aren't other children around to fulfill that role.


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## sweetpeppers

Wow, finally finished reading all 47 pages. There is some great stuff in here. I've been recommending this thread to all kinds of people.

things that help me be a better parent (CC or otherwise):
-go outside for a while every day, I've noticed that the more we're outside the happier we both are...we stack firewood, bring in firewood, cut firewood, saw stuff for the toy treehouses that I make, rake the dead grass for the compost cover, rake leaves, take walks, play in the sand, mud, water, ice, throw sticks, rocks, prickly balls into the water, work in the garden in the summer, walk to the park and play there, play in the hammock, have picnics, swim, and so on
-have useful work to do...inside stuff is cleaning, crocheting, building/sanding/sawing for the toys I make, cooking, etc.
-wrap (or sling) time every day...even though my son is two, I find that even a half hour a day helps...I think that babies have three major resets: sleeping, nursing, and babywearing
-just relax, don't worry about doing "it" "right" or what is or isn't continuum, just do what feels right (and don't be lazy and sit in front of the TV/computer all day), if my son wants to play or wants me to do something for him, I drop what I'm doing and assist. I find if I put him off for a while or say no all the time, then he just wants me more and gets more whiny. If I respond to his requests promptly, he doesn't have to get worked up and things just go more smoothly. And since I usually respond promptly, when I can't, he can wait because he knows that I want to help or play or whatever.

I've forgotten what else I wanted to say. I think the biggest thing is just to stop worrying in general. things that help with that, I've found, are:
-get all the voices out of your head telling you what to do (and since that's a work in progress, just practice ignoring them)
-if your child is doing something that worries you (not something that's going to kill or maim them), just keep an eye on him or spot him, rather than opening your mouth (generally speaking)
-believe that your child is basically competent, and if they fall, cut themselves, etc. it's not the end of the world

It's 5am, I don't even know what I'm saying anymore. I'm going to bed.

Thanks everyone for all your insight. I've loved reading this thread. Keep it coming.


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## Devaya

hi everyone
some useful thoughts and suggestions in the last few posts, thanks everyone! I'm having a bit of trouble b/c the ONLY thing DS wants to do is 'cook' (and occasionally mop/sweep) with our real pots and pans (he says 'cook' while he plays with them, and puts real food in them too), which I'm fine with but drives DP crazy with the loud clanging noise- and after DS broke a sieve today DP has said the 'real stuff' is off limits. I seriously cannot get any housework done if DS is not engaged with something himself, I can wear him sometimes but then often he just starts screaming in the back bc he can see I'm using stuff he wants to use! So I'm not sure where to go from here...I let him do 'real stuff' like stirring a pot from a good distance while in my arms, which he loves, and he is imitating us like crazy at the moment, which is all good. So I'm having a lot of 'tugging' and whining at the moment which is really trying my patience! I do sit down and play with him at least once a day for a few minutes, often take him to the park and so on, and read stories a lot to him, but I think he just needs more stimulation around the house than I can provide with no siblings/relatives etc.

this isnt exactly related to parenting in a CC way, but I have to say I've been feeling rather depressed just lately about our society and how most children are parented - seeing scenes that make me feel sick sometimes - and also realising how a lot of my own 'stuff' prob comes from not having in-arms needs fulfilled (like most people!). How do you find positive ways to deal with this - grief is all I can explain it as?

also, on a more everyday level, the toddler of a friend who I've been meeting up with regularly since our toddlers were small babies, has started pushing DS over almost constantly and grabbing toys from him (no matter how many toys of his own he has). I've never seen DS do anything like this and he looks completely puzzled, then often hurt, when it happens. He doesn't respond aggressively back, but I'm a bit concerned. I dont feel like I want to hang out with them much anymore as it requires constant 'referee-ing' and I can't just let DS free to explore as he normally is. What would a CC approach be here? I remember Liedloff mentions a Yequana child starting to bite other children, and she seemed to imply it was a sign of a disrupted continuum in some way. This toddler (my friend's), although brought up very 'attachment parenting', is raised in what I perceive to be a very child-centred way and I know he was in a buggy for most of the in-arms phase and only started being 'worn' as an older baby..


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## flowers

Big hugs Devaya.

I have to say my most challenging phase as a parent was being home alone all day with my first born when he was 9 mos-18 mos. He loved high stimulation and I just couldn't catch a break.

I tried to save things for when I needed to get things done. I had a special drawer in the kitchen with baby friendly equipment and when I cooked I pulled it all out, but then I would put it away for next time. He enjoyed me just spending time with him so it was helpful to have a hobby that I could do alongside his play like knitting or something. I'm thinking you could even scrapbook if you were organized enough to have friendly supplies for him to play.

It passed and now he is so easy to spend the day with. He plays by himself many hours during the day, plays with his younger brother and now has the most interesting conversations with us. I found his personality bloomed when he could talk and have more independence. Truth be told, I just don't think he liked being in a baby's body.

lots of love mama.


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## zansmama

couple of thoughts:
Nolimom:
why not wet felt with the little one? No pokey needles, and they end up with a fun little ball. I have seen little 2yo's really enjoy wet felting.

Devaya;
i'm so sorry, it's hard when dp isn't on the same page. Ds played almost exclusively with pots and pans for so long,i can't imagine making them off-limits. Could he be allowed to play only with unbreakable pots and pans?

One good way i have found of convincing dp is to read to him aloud frm TCC. He listens to a book a lot more than me







:... Or perhaps, if he's not home all day, you could work it out where ds doesn't play with pots and pans when dp's home, if the noise is just unbearable for him...


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## Devaya

Thanks, flowers and zansmama. I've been realising that really, I'm just pretty lonely at home and although I get out most days, it's just not the same as living in a more communal setting...I am going to scrounge around some charity (second hand) shops to find a set of pots that DS can use safely, and just have certain hours when they're out of bounds - e.g. before DP is up for the morning. DP also freaked today when DS was 'washing up' alongside me and there was of course tons of water on the floor...He is a perfectionist! I am too but I've learned to throw that out the window a lot of the time with a toddler. I will try and read him some of the CC book - I have told him the concepts in it on and off and he's in agreement with most of it, but I think his need for order and peace is conflicting with that. Which of course I need to consider as well.

I've been meaning to get around to doing some knitting etc around DS while he plays - he often just needs me to be on the same 'level' as him, on the floor, and then he feels he has company and can get on with his own thing. I also got some recipes today to make home made playdough and lemon curd and am going to try that out soon! I'm enjoying the challenge of getting outside my comfort zone, and I'm finding it very rewarding to see how confident and independent DS is already when we're out and about, and how much he participates in our everyday tasks.


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## flowers

My dh has his things too. He does not like when I let the kids play with rice and beans and it starts going everywhere on the floor. I figure I will just sweep it up but dh gets really stressed. Somethings are just designated for "when daddy's not here"
















Sounds like your doing great Deveya!


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## Devaya

Thanks!







Having this forum to come to is so great, as I don't know anyone else who is really doing this.


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## NoliMum

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama* 
couple of thoughts:
Nolimom:
why not wet felt with the little one? No pokey needles, and they end up with a fun little ball. I have seen little 2yo's really enjoy wet felting.

Oh she loves wet felting! And "needling" too with a pretend needle (in this case, a little wooden tree).... but when she starts to grab at my needle, what do I do?
A) Redirect toward another activity and hope she'll give me some space
B) Put my stuff up until she is asleep or otherwise occupied and play with her

Usually I start with A and end up doing B! It gets really frustrating.


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## accountclosed3

hi all!

my baby boy and i are definitely CC. he is in arms pretty much 22-23 hrs a day! our concession is the car seat!

i do have a question though.







it's about child care. my friend will be returning to work in 4-6 weeks. they are looking for child care and we discussed it. they also are pretty CC, delay/select vax, organic food--basically like us. it's cool.

they have a child care lined up that has guaranteed so many hours "in arms" during the day. i think they have four infants to care for total--one person to four infants. i suppose in an eight hour day, that's about two hours in arms per day if all things are equal.

now, jamie bella will be about 3-3.5 months old; hawk will be about 6-6.5 months old. he's getting to the point where he is trying to crawl (he can definitely get where he wants to go on my body), and may be there or may not in a month or six weeks. who knows? he'll do what he needs to do. but as it is, he seems to flourish in his 21 hrs of holding per day.

i would like to offer child care to my friend's baby, but i'm concerned about it's affect on both hawk and jamie bella. i want to offer the best possible care to my boy and also to jamie bella! i want to keep their continuums in tact!

i know that some parents must raise twins or more in the continuum--so it must be possible. i'm just not sure how to do it. any insight, assurances, or pointers that you can give?

(oh, and on the plus side he would have less time in the car seat because i wouldn't drive him to and from my husband's work--easily an hour a day of commuting!--so he'd likely gain an extra hour of snuggle!)


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## riomidwife

Hi there, I think this is my first time posting here. DS is 19 months and we have been more or less parenting in a CC style since he was born. He is, in because of this environment he has grown up in, very independent, self-satisfying and adventurous. He's far from behaving like a HUnter-Gatherer child, but we've managed to avoid many of the trappings of conventional American parenting involving consumerism, fear-based decision making, the allopathic medical system, etc.

I first read CC (and similar books) ages ago, pre-children, while still a midwifery student. My partner's academic background is in evolutionary biology, so he is also particularly interested in human behavior and development from this perspective. He has also worked with many Indigenous hunter-gatherer groups in Latin America and it has been great to be able to discuss a lot of these issues with him. I am looking forward to reading through the entire thread sometime.
When?!?!?

One challenge we're having these days is DS intentionally lagging behind and wandering off when we're walking around in public places. Often he _will_ follow just behind, and be engaged with us, or whatever he is doing, along side us. But he is increasingly testing the situation by not following when we're moving on. How are you all approaching this? In a busy urban area with bust streets I do not feel comfortable continuing on without him. We have a lot of drunk drivers here too, and in no way do I trust other people to look out for my little toddler at the side of the road.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaya* 
the toddler of a friend who I've been meeting up with regularly since our toddlers were small babies, has started pushing DS over almost constantly and grabbing toys from him. I've never seen DS do anything like this and he looks completely puzzled, then often hurt, when it happens.....What would a CC approach be here?....This toddler (my friend's), although brought up very 'attachment parenting', is raised in what I perceive to be a very child-centred way

Devaya, we are experiencing this too. Just the other day we went to a new friend's house and there was a three year old girl there who was completely bossing the other kids, and forceably shoved a sweet little one year old into the wall three times! As the only parent in the room I intervened as best I could but the poor boy was completely caught off guard and very upset. Now, I don't want to get on here criticizing other mothers, but from the brief time I was there I saw the mother of the girl really obsessing over her ever word, action, need, etc., to the point that we could not even have much of a conversation. Who knows, we all have our difficult and "off" days and our kids do too. But we've moved recently and are meeting lots of new parents and kids, and I just don't want to be around this. Is it totally ridiculous to think we can escape this kind of parent-child dynamic and aggressive behavior?

Warmly,
Erin


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## zansmama

Quote:

now, jamie bella will be about 3-3.5 months old; hawk will be about 6-6.5 months old. he's getting to the point where he is trying to crawl (he can definitely get where he wants to go on my body), and may be there or may not in a month or six weeks. who knows? he'll do what he needs to do. but as it is, he seems to flourish in his 21 hrs of holding per day.
I would definitely go for it! The most difficult thing for us and TCC has been finding a consistent "kid group" for ds, and this would set the stage for that.

It sounds like your ds is just about at the "creeping" stage (I think that was between 6-9 mos in the book, for us started at 5 mos), and will soon be doing his own thing most of the time; getting around on his own; checking things out: if you are hard-core TCC. You can always pick him up when he wants you to. The little-er one I would put on my back, so she's automatically held. Then the front of you is free for picking up ds when he requests it.
I highly reccomend the babysitting thing for a TCC mama. It really helped to keep me from focusing too much on ds, and being too child-centered. And as soon as he's ready for playing with other kids: she'll be right there.


----------



## Devaya

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riomidwife* 
One challenge we're having these days is DS intentionally lagging behind and wandering off when we're walking around in public places. Often he _will_ follow just behind, and be engaged with us, or whatever he is doing, along side us. But he is increasingly testing the situation by not following when we're moving on. How are you all approaching this? In a busy urban area with bust streets I do not feel comfortable continuing on without him. We have a lot of drunk drivers here too, and in no way do I trust other people to look out for my little toddler at the side of the road.

Devaya, we are experiencing this too. Just the other day we went to a new friend's house and there was a three year old girl there who was completely bossing the other kids, and forceably shoved a sweet little one year old into the wall three times! As the only parent in the room I intervened as best I could but the poor boy was completely caught off guard and very upset. Now, I don't want to get on here criticizing other mothers, but from the brief time I was there I saw the mother of the girl really obsessing over her ever word, action, need, etc., to the point that we could not even have much of a conversation. Who knows, we all have our difficult and "off" days and our kids do too. But we've moved recently and are meeting lots of new parents and kids, and I just don't want to be around this. Is it totally ridiculous to think we can escape this kind of parent-child dynamic and aggressive behavior?

Warmly,
Erin

Hi Erin, and welcome to the thread! I still haven't had time to read the entire thing either, I try to squeeze some in once a week or so!
Re the lagging behind/wandering off thing - my little one is doing that too, and I'm a bit worried bc I certainly DON'T want to end up chasing him, but let's be honest here,the city ISN'T a safe place...the other day we were in a very middle-class park and he was within eye-shot but not right at my side, and we encountered two obviously mentally ill (one ranting and in-your-face, not pleasant) women along the way...making me think, uh-oh, maybe my confidence is misplaced. They may well not have ever hurt him, but it doesn't inspire a sense of safety. I'm not sure what to do either.

ANd how do you all handle the looks/possible words of criticism/judgement from members of public who do not understand? I seem to get looks from people as soon as DS isn't right next to me holding my hand...the British culture is incredibly controlling and fearful around children, and many toddlers are on leashes. I'm a bit defensive but I dont think I'm imagining it either.

Re having to socialise with child-centred/passive aggressive families: I must say I'm phasing that out more and more. I mostly hang out in groups of other adults who 'incidentally' bring children along, rather than a child-centred thing, such as at the children's library or the park, or at Twelfth Step meetings that are child-friendly. Or at a friend' s house, she has 2 kids and they all just mill about together very pleasantly. The friend I mentioned in my previous thread, I hardly see anymore, due to her working hours, but I decided not to deliberately avoid her b/c I think it could happen to anyone, that your child starts to push,e tc - and she would be isolated if everyone just avoided her and her child. Apparently when he's at nursery he is fine and never does that - I wonder why. But i do find myself uncomfortable a lot of the time with the way parents interact with their kids when we're out and about, the constant unnecessary 'be careful''s etc, and the way the children often seem to have internalised this and start bossing DS around - 'you can't go on that slide, that's for big boys', etc, when he is trying out his climbing skills and I'm close by to supervise.


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## Devaya

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama* 
I highly reccomend the babysitting thing for a TCC mama. It really helped to keep me from focusing too much on ds, and being too child-centered. And as soon as he's ready for playing with other kids: she'll be right there.

This is interesting - I've been considering, on and off, doing some childminding, and hadn't thought of it as a good TCC thing to do. Generally DS is great with other kids around and is then much less looking for me to do stuff with him. But what's put me off, really, is that I doubt I could carry on with my own housework and so on, if I were looking after someone else's child. They'd expect me to be playing with them all the time, right?


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## NoliMum

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaya* 
This is interesting - I've been considering, on and off, doing some childminding, and hadn't thought of it as a good TCC thing to do. Generally DS is great with other kids around and is then much less looking for me to do stuff with him. But what's put me off, really, is that I doubt I could carry on with my own housework and so on, if I were looking after someone else's child. They'd expect me to be playing with them all the time, right?

Not necessarily. I watch a fie-year-old on Tuesdays and she does fine without my help. She plays with my almost three-year-old and I can go about my own work. I actually get more done with two kids here than one! Anytime my own child needs help, I always ask the older child to assist first, so that they can find a solution together without my intervention. I only wish I had another child here everyday, because I think multiple children are definitely important in a TCC environment.

If the girls really want to play with me, I usually say, "Okay, bring your game out here while I fold laundry," or "I will play for five minutes then I hae to get back to work." And of course the moment I turn on the faucet they both come running, "_I want to wash dishes, pleeeease!!_"









And her mother is happy that I can get things done. She doesn't want me pandering to her child all the time. She's a single working mom, so she understands that things just need to get done and children are perfectly capable (and perfectly happy!) to play on their own.


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## accountclosed3

thanks for the encouragement! more and more, hawk is interested in just being and playing on his own--and really jamie is only awake, so far, to eat and be changed. LOL


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## Devaya

Nolimum, that sounds like a great arrangement. The mom you work for clearly sounds on board with your ideas. I wonder if it could work for me after all...


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## zansmama

Okay, I've been doing CC with ds since the beginning... and it shows. Good physical instincts, good relationships with peers, and etc.
However, lately I can see that I've been influenced a lot by society as far as parental involvement and control, and ds's natural self-regulation is weakening. He has adopted a rather rebellious,sassy attitude that he never exhibited before (he's almost 6), and I think it's because he's being too regulated. He often resists helping around the house now, which is also new. I want to just go back, but these new habits are dying hard.
I want to get back to CC principles such as contentment in work, not forcing my will on him, and etc... I'm just not sure how that looks at 5yo, I guess, and how to re-incorporate it into our life.
And TV is a big issue with us. I guess I have a belief that, given the chance, he would just veg out all day in front of... whatever, videos and etc. so we argue about this a lot.
I think we are going to start him in school in Sept, because he NEEDS a "tribe" to hang out with every single day. Once or twice a week is not cutting it any more.

Anyway, any moms with any advice/insight or personal anecdotes that may be helpful here?


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## Periwinkle

One thought popped into my mind.... TV (and video games, etc.) aren't very CC. Kind of like high fructose corn syrup is not very "traditional foods". So I think the reason kids (and parents) have trouble regulating them and TV (and video games etc.) becomes a huge issue is that we have literally ZERO human continuum experience with dealing with that kind of addictive stimulation (or lack thereof). Kind of like our bodies didn't evolve around HFCS or other refined sugars and so many of us get nutsy when we eat refined sugars (and grains) and get quite literally addicted to them, and they cause all kinds of health problems as a result. My kids were 100% TV free until the age of around 4 1/2 and then they watched things like Little Bear and Caillou and I told myself it was A-okay and these are such "benign shows" who could possible worry about that. Then I was kind of horrified about a year ago at how MUCH TV they were watching, so we totally cut back. Mostly it's just Friday Night Movie Night now, not even really TV. And we've never done any video games because I am pretty concerned about the risks.

But anyway, my point is I am wondering how much of the battling and negative behaviors are arising at least in part because of the TV watching. Maybe you should just go no-TV for a while or implement serious rules about it. I know that rules may not seem CC, but TV is not a CC thing and IMO if you're going to have something like TV (or video games, or high fructose corn syrup, lol) in your life, you need some rules about it because people - especially children - will NOT self-regulate on these things.


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## EnviroBecca

Quote:

I actually get more done with two kids here than one!
This has been my experience too. When my son has a friend over to play, the two of them entertain each other and I am much less in demand. I do have to stick around where I can see or hear them pretty well (just in case the other kid gets an idea to do something I'd rather they not do--several of his friends are years older and can be bossy!) but since our first floor has a very open plan, that still leaves lots of options for activities for all of us.


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## riomidwife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riomidwife* 
One challenge we're having these days is DS intentionally lagging behind and wandering off when we're walking around in public places. Often he _will_ follow just behind, and be engaged with us, or whatever he is doing, along side us. But he is increasingly testing the situation by not following when we're moving on. How are you all approaching this? In a busy urban area with bust streets I do not feel comfortable continuing on without him. We have a lot of drunk drivers here too, and in no way do I trust other people to look out for my little toddler at the side of the road.
Warmly,
Erin


I am enjoying reading through the thread, but if anyone has any thoughts on the above, I am all ears! thanks!


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 

But anyway, my point is I am wondering how much of the battling and negative behaviors are arising at least in part because of the TV watching. Maybe you should just go no-TV for a while or implement serious rules about it. I know that rules may not seem CC, but TV is not a CC thing and IMO if you're going to have something like TV (or video games, or high fructose corn syrup, lol) in your life, you need some rules about it because people - especially children - will NOT self-regulate on these things.

Yeah, I agree... We definitely have to regulate somewhat. But I think part of what has been going on is that I have been perceiving TV as "bad" (not dp, unfortunately), and ds has been picking up on the disapproving vibe.

I've really been working on the expectation and belief in innate "rightness", so to speak: innate sociability, so that ds feels approved of and accepted. It really seems to be making a huge difference. I've also been teaching him how to do more things for himself, and this has really helped. I think even just the change in my attitude and focus can help us get back on track.


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riomidwife* 
I am enjoying reading through the thread, but if anyone has any thoughts on the above, I am all ears! thanks!

I would really, really model carefulness, and even "fear" of the street. This worked for us with ds. Then I could trust him to wander, because I knew he would NEVER wander into the street.
His little buddy told him when he was about 2 that a car would "smash him flat". I think that pretty much did it for us.
Oh, and I would just continue on, after letting him know that you are doing so (waiting at street crossings). He will eventually follow, I believe.


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## Devaya

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama* 
I would really, really model carefulness, and even "fear" of the street. This worked for us with ds. Then I could trust him to wander, because I knew he would NEVER wander into the street.
His little buddy told him when he was about 2 that a car would "smash him flat". I think that pretty much did it for us.
Oh, and I would just continue on, after letting him know that you are doing so (waiting at street crossings). He will eventually follow, I believe.

I've been wondering about this too, and about what is the age-appropriate way of conveying this at 15 months. Y.day we were in the park having coffee at a cafe and DS walked off (as soon as 'released' from the pushchair) and went to check out the bowling greens. He was within my view but quite far away, and another mother came up to him, obviously concerned that he seemed to be on his own. What do you all do in situations like that? She gestured at me to ask if he was mine and I nodded, after which she nodded and moved away, but I was worried that she would think I was negligent. It's so hard, b/c I can't and don't want to 'keep him' by my side, and he enjoys exploring on his own, BUT he doesn't seem to know that he needs to stay close to me, and the park isn't far from the road and the cars.

As soon as he started walking further away I went and stood a short distance from him. He's very fascinated by cars and points at them excitedly, saying 'car! car!' I don't know how to convey to him that they are n't a 'fun thing' but a dangerous thing, without being all 'Oh be careful! It's scary!'

I just feel a bit at sea with all this b/c I 'm genuinely concerned for his safety and don't want to end up having to use a leash b/c he hasn't learned appropriate safety for himself. He won't, and never has, held hands when walking, except for very short periods when he's, say, climbing a pebbly beach which is difficult for him. At what age did you all start giving more physical space? Also, yesterday he fell down the stairs when he was carrying something down with him(fortunately only from the 3rd one down, but it could have been very serious if it was further up) and that freaked me out a bit (tho I tried not to show it) - thinking mayb we should put the stairgate up etc.


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## flowers

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaya* 
I've been wondering about this too, and about what is the age-appropriate way of conveying this at 15 months. Y.day we were in the park having coffee at a cafe and DS walked off (as soon as 'released' from the pushchair) and went to check out the bowling greens. He was within my view but quite far away, and another mother came up to him, obviously concerned that he seemed to be on his own. What do you all do in situations like that? She gestured at me to ask if he was mine and I nodded, after which she nodded and moved away, but I was worried that she would think I was negligent. It's so hard, b/c I can't and don't want to 'keep him' by my side, and he enjoys exploring on his own, BUT he doesn't seem to know that he needs to stay close to me, and the park isn't far from the road and the cars.

As soon as he started walking further away I went and stood a short distance from him. He's very fascinated by cars and points at them excitedly, saying 'car! car!' I don't know how to convey to him that they are n't a 'fun thing' but a dangerous thing, without being all 'Oh be careful! It's scary!'

I just feel a bit at sea with all this b/c I 'm genuinely concerned for his safety and don't want to end up having to use a leash b/c he hasn't learned appropriate safety for himself. He won't, and never has, held hands when walking, except for very short periods when he's, say, climbing a pebbly beach which is difficult for him. At what age did you all start giving more physical space? Also, yesterday he fell down the stairs when he was carrying something down with him(fortunately only from the 3rd one down, but it could have been very serious if it was further up) and that freaked me out a bit (tho I tried not to show it) - thinking mayb we should put the stairgate up etc.


Dh and I find it quite entertaining to sit back and "watch" how our ds's interact with others on their own. Often times an adult will look around and when she looks at us I give a little wave and nod and that is it. I always make sure that it is evident that I am watching, just letting him explore, and I am there if needed. I think negligence would be if I wasn't aware of where my child was. We've been parenting like this since my first child could crawl (so about 4 years) and if anything it has made me feel safe and confident about humanity. People are always ready to step in and help my children and ask if they are lost. I am happy to know that if my child was lost that there is an abundance of wonderful people out there who would help him.

I have a 16 month old who is much more daring than his brother. We've always lived on busy streets and with his older brother I would take him right to the edge of the street and very, very firmly, with fear in my eyes say No! Big Boo-Boos! and then turn him around and prance and play in the safe areas of the yard. I save that tone for very intense experiences and rarely use it. We live in an urban area and cars are everywhere. I want my child to know how serious it is to stay safe around them.


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## leila1213

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama* 
I would really, really model carefulness, and even "fear" of the street. This worked for us with ds. Then I could trust him to wander, because I knew he would NEVER wander into the street.
His little buddy told him when he was about 2 that a car would "smash him flat". I think that pretty much did it for us.
Oh, and I would just continue on, after letting him know that you are doing so (waiting at street crossings). He will eventually follow, I believe.

I'm so glad I came back to check on this thread! I haven't read past this post, yet. But I just wanted to add one thing. I think at the beginning of "training" back to letting the child follow you, there will be a much larger gap between you before s/he follows. But as they start to anticipate that you really *will* continue walking (albeit slowly) without them, their need to be closer will kick in faster. This has been my experience with DD, and with a child I babysat. I didn't get to test it out with him very long, because he took FOREVER to follow me - in proportion to the lack of CC parenting he's received, I think - and I usually had to go back to get him or create some diversion to "make" him follow the few times I tried. Then our situation changed and I don't watch him anymore.


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## Devaya

thanks for those points, Flowers. We have a beautiful cemetery which is more of a park, right across our road (which is a busy road) so I might try something like what you suggested, modelling where it is safe to play and where not. I also think it's good that people look out for your children, after all that 's how it 'should' be in a community, and in the situation I described I didn't get a vibe that it was anything more than that. I was at a big (drugs-free, holistic, family-friendly) festival in the summer and one of the stall-holders there let her young walking toddler (about 13 mo) roam the festival on his own - out of her view - and I was amazed at her trust. I mean, it was as good an environment as you're probably going to get, but there could have been broken glass or anything. So it's interesting what you say about not letting them out of your range of vision.

leila1213, that is interesting. I guess I've not been waiting long enough for DS to catch up with me - he usually does, but sometimes I don't have time to just wait around *forever* so I do go back a bit and gesture him to follow. Prob not good, but unfort Western time does run on clocks







I will keep trying to train him to follow me though!


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## webjefita

Hello, I have been looking for a CC tribe. I hope it's okay to post here. I am going to be reading the thread from the beginning because I am so intensely needing to understand the CC.

I am reading the book I think for the third time. First time was when older DS was a baby. The newborn part I've got down pat. The childhood part is harder. I'm really struggling with applying a lot of the principles to our living situation (modern isolated suburban sahm here!) my problem is that *I* am not a CULTURE! *I* am just me. And soon I/we (DH) will be outnumbered... we're having #3.

If we were just part of a larger community, spent more time with people, especially people who believed in the CC, it would be all be perfect, but alas, reality is imperfect.

I am especially working right now on having confidence in myself and in my authority, so that my children will have confidence in me. I'm constantly revising (raising) my expectations and training myself to have faith in their social nature... reminding myself they will *want* to follow me and *want* my guidance/information. It is hard with an almost 6 yr old (because I have been so wishy-washy with him for so many years) easier with a newly 3 yr old.

I am rereading several articles on the Web site and really enjoyed "Restoring Harmony" and then "Allowing Human Nature To Work Successfully." That is my goal, summed up right there! Thanks for reading everyone!


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## webjefita

Quote:

i would like to offer child care to my friend's baby, but i'm concerned about it's affect on both hawk and jamie bella. i want to offer the best possible care to my boy and also to jamie bella! i want to keep their continuums in tact!
I just wanted to comment on this. I think it is a great idea! Sounds ideal for you and your friend, as well as the babies. Four infants to one adult is too much, but two, with their age differences, should work just fine.

I stay at home with my two boys, and I always jump at the chance to have more kids over here. I sometimes care for my friend's two children who have similar ages. Sometimes I will go out of my way to go and pick a friend's children up so they can come over and play with my two little ones. I think it is so healthy for them, they all play really well together, there are mixed ages, they learn to care for the little ones, the older ones get to teach, etc. Plus, they leave me alone! I get so much more done of things *I* want to do, and so I feel more balanced. The kids are happy, I'm happy. In fact, I'm thinking about looking for a child to care for when this baby is about 6 months.


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## webjefita

Quote:

My partner's academic background is in evolutionary biology, so he is also particularly interested in human behavior and development from this perspective. He has also worked with many Indigenous hunter-gatherer groups in Latin America and it has been great to be able to discuss a lot of these issues with him.
This is so fascinating, I would love to hear more about your discussions!

Does anyone have book recommendations for studies of other indigenous societies? I am SO craving more. I know Leidloff later went to Bali and I have not yet read those articles, but I want to know MORE about societies the world over and see how many of these things from CC are common and hold up in other places.


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## webjefita

Quote:

I want to get back to CC principles such as contentment in work, not forcing my will on him, and etc... I'm just not sure how that looks at 5yo, I guess, and how to re-incorporate it into our life.
Beth, I am right there with you. Also have a five year old. I have recently again stopped "forcing" them to help and am trying to constantly remind myself that they should *want* to help with what the adults are doing, and if they don't, then we're doing something wrong: making it look like no fun!

A lot of the principles that work well for babies and toddlers get harder when they are at this age. I think it's my own lack of confidence in my authority and his sociality... I'm working so hard on it. Look forward to more comments on this.

Quote:

I think we are going to start him in school in Sept, because he NEEDS a "tribe" to hang out with every single day. Once or twice a week is not cutting it any more.
ITA here, too. I am panicking about how much it is going to cost, but the only school that is acceptable to me is the Montessori one he is at... I truly LOVE the school and the directress and assistants. He goes three afternoons a week now, and he is just flourishing socially. He comes home and "homeschools" himself the other days of the week. He is constantly working on making maps and doing all kinds of projects, teaching himself to count to 200, etc. I don't do anything except sometimes provide him with some resources or help with how to do something he wants to do. But in September I really want to send him there for K five afternoons a week. I really feel that it is not healthy for the three of us, soon to be four of us with the baby, to be home all day every day. We have no other community or tribe with regular interaction. So to school it is, even though I want to homeschool.

Sorry for all the replies, I'm reading the last page and replying little by little!


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## webjefita

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by riomidwife
One challenge we're having these days is DS intentionally lagging behind and wandering off when we're walking around in public places. Often he will follow just behind, and be engaged with us, or whatever he is doing, along side us. But he is increasingly testing the situation by not following when we're moving on. How are you all approaching this? In a busy urban area with bust streets I do not feel comfortable continuing on without him. We have a lot of drunk drivers here too, and in no way do I trust other people to look out for my little toddler at the side of the road.
Warmly,
Erin

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riomidwife* 
I am enjoying reading through the thread, but if anyone has any thoughts on the above, I am all ears! thanks!

I live in a suburban, not urban area, but I do make sure that I lead the way and I do not follow my kids. I really, really trust them wrt to the street, we live on an unfenced lot on a corner and I have taught them the boundaries where they are to play and I can only expect compliance. I have only a couple times chased them down which I promised myself I would never do again.

When we are out in public, again, I made the decision to never go after them, to always communicate verbally and nonverbally that they were to come to me and follow me. I have gotten looks, questions "Is he yours?" etc. because people think I am too far away from my DC. I just stick to it even though I might worry for a second inside, I never let it show! I don't know, I guess we are in pretty safe areas but if we are at Super Target (a big store) I will just keep on walking and say, "This way." They've never gotten lost









Quote:

At what age did you all start giving more physical space?
I just recently started letting my 5.5 yo take care of himself when we cross the streets (not busy streets), meaning I wait for him and then say we're crossing and then I do and I don't hold his hand or look back at him. The younger one is turning 3 this month and I still hold his hand when we cross.


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## Harmony08

Is it too late?

Hello everyone. I just learned about TCC and I am fascinated. I put the book on hold from the library so hopefully this will answer the multitude of questions I have.

I already feel like I must have ruined my son's continuum. I let him play in his chair while I do kitchen things etc and he really enjoys playing on his mat. He has never really tolerated being worn for any long period of time. He loves to be held in arms, however. I just do a lot with one arm. He has also been sleeping in his crib pulled against my side of the bed until he hit the 4 month sleep regression. Now, he basically sleeps with us full time.

What can I do at this point to damage control his in arms period?

(I'm in the process of reading through the whole thread. I apologoze if this question has already been answered)


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## webjefita

Hi!

Heck no, it's not too late! Leidloff talks about in the book or in an article, I forget which, about 4- and 5-yr olds who didn't get their complete in arms phase. She suggests parents let the kids sleep with them until they get their fill. Both of mine were baby worn a lot, always when we were out, but they were put down a lot at home and didn't get the complete in arms experience--but I think they got enough. They still like to be carried sometimes and we do indulge that--even though they are big!--just to make sure that the need is met.

You're not at all late... I'm still trying to correct things that I've done/am doing with my 5yo... welcome to the thread!


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## EnviroBecca

Welcome, new posters!

Webjefita, I have an idea for extending your tribe: When I was little (in a suburban area) my mom was in a babysitting co-op of moms who SAH or worked PT. There was a list of everybody's contact info, and when she needed a sitter she'd just call people with convenient location and similar-aged kids until she found someone who was available at that time. After sitting was done, the sitter would call the co-op secretary to report the number of hours. Everybody was supposed to put in about as many hours as she used. It seemed to work pretty well. In addition to giving my brother and me opportunities to play with other kids, experience other homes, and share our home, it sometimes was a way for us or our mom to make friends we'd then get together with in other contexts.

Quote:

I have recently again stopped "forcing" them to help and am trying to constantly remind myself that they should *want* to help with what the adults are doing, and if they don't, then we're doing something wrong: making it look like no fun!
You're not necessarily doing anything wrong! Liedloff talks about how little kids would help the adults for just a few minutes, then run off to play, and that was totally accepted because their attitude was that nobody needs to be coerced into working because work is appealing enough that it'll get done eventually. I've found that the less I badger my son about helping in specific ways, the more likely he is to ASK to help or just pitch in.


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## PrincessDoll

Are there any TCC'ers who also follow some of Rudolf Steiner's work in here? In many ways, I find that Waldorf education is a very nice complement to what Liedloff touched on in the book. I've done some searches online, and I'm not the first to make the connection between the two.

So, just curious if anyone here is also a fan of Waldorf ?


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## leila1213

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 







Welcome, new posters!

Webjefita, I have an idea for extending your tribe: When I was little (in a suburban area) my mom was in a babysitting co-op of moms who SAH or worked PT. There was a list of everybody's contact info, and when she needed a sitter she'd just call people with convenient location and similar-aged kids until she found someone who was available at that time. After sitting was done, the sitter would call the co-op secretary to report the number of hours. Everybody was supposed to put in about as many hours as she used. It seemed to work pretty well. In addition to giving my brother and me opportunities to play with other kids, experience other homes, and share our home, it sometimes was a way for us or our mom to make friends we'd then get together with in other contexts.


My local NAP group is going to start doing this! I'm so excited!


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## NoliMum

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrincessDoll* 
Are there any TCC'ers who also follow some of Rudolf Steiner's work in here? In many ways, I find that Waldorf education is a very nice complement to what Liedloff touched on in the book. I've done some searches online, and I'm not the first to make the connection between the two.

So, just curious if anyone here is also a fan of Waldorf ?

I am. I think the two can complement one another. Waldorf involves a lot of handwork, so most of the child's time is spent imitating the adults in their handwork and eventually learning to do it on their own. Also, play is considered a child's work, without interference from adults, who are doing their own work in the meantime. Children can come and go between play and participating with the adults' work.

It does have more toys than "real" objects, but I've found that my DD is happy with a balance between the two. She likes to use real tools and objects around the house, but she also loves toys for pretend play. For example, her play kitchen isn't real, but she uses real utensils, pots, cups, etc. She also has access to my kitchen and participates in cooking and cleaning. It's her choice which one kitchen she uses (real or pretend) at a given time- and she seems to enjoy both options equally.


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## webjefita

Not so knowledgeable about Waldorf, but I do a lot of Montessori inspired things and I think that philosophy is also very compatible with TTC. It always strikes me as wierd to see Waldorf/Montessori mentioned together, because in some ways it seems they are contradictory, but maybe the differences are not so great?

I know Montessori is about respecting the child's innate abilities, using real tools, allowing them to develop self discipline and initiative, and not using coercion or influence at least in the academic sphere. My ds attend a Montessori preschool and I love that he follow his own interests there. If he wants to do the same work over and over every day, he can, and he's never pressured to move on and do something else. He's a great self starter, and he homeschools himself on the days he doesn't have school


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## berkeleyp

I don't always have enough time to keep up on discussions like this but I just read the CC and am obsessed. I've been imagining ways to create a better tribe for myself IRL but have yet to implement any (I just read the book on Sunday).

I am really interested in how "modern" moms incorporate CC principles into their lives. I feel like my isolation from other families is such a huge obstacle to achieving CC lifestyle.

Anyway, I'm getting late for work but wanted to sub to this and hopefully have a chance to really participate later.


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## leila1213

WRT not chasing your kids, I have found another reason for this. I babysit 2 very independent little boys, and when I have them at the park with DD, I have noticed the little "panicked" looks in their eyes when I move from my normal spot and they don't see me right away. It is really interesting to see how they go about playing, but always look back periodically to make sure I'm close by. If you're always following your kid around, they will come to expect that they will find you behind them. But that only works with one kid! What do you do with more than one??!! Gotta go, toddler needs me.


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## sweetpeppers

Not chasing your kids is one of the biggest lessons I took for the Continuum Concept. Not that I was a big chaser/hoverer, but I did some. It just makes so much sense. If you chase them, they will run. If you don't, they will come running back because they don't want to be far from you. It even works while I'm babysitting. I was watching this 15 month old and she would walk away to the very edge of my comfort zone, but once she got so far away she would come running back a little to where she felt safe.


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## Periwinkle

We've talked about this before but just had to chime in... not chasing your kids is HUGE. Not just because you get to leave a playground with your brood actually following along behind, lol, but because this instict keeps them safe.

How many toddlers do I see bolt from their mothers into a parking lot, into the street, and around the corner out of sight? How many kids wander off not paying attention to where mom is because mom is always the one to do that, but mom is engrossed in the sale rack or haggling with someone at customer service, and the child ends up lost in a huge department store?

I just went to Home Depot yesterday with all 3 of my kids. SUCH a kid playground in there omg. And I thought, holy crap, here I am pushing this cart and all 3 of them are following next to me. And I thought, if I lost my child in this store it would be a horrible nightmare. They could disappear around one of 50 aiseles, go out one of 15 doors into one of 2 huge parking lots... with _anyone_.

Honestly the biggest boon from being more CC with my kids (I would never claim to be 100% CC -- I mean I do live in suburban America not the rain forest... unfortunately lol) is the kids following me and being careful to manage that invisible tie between us. Oh that and not complaining when doing chores.


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## MommyMichele

I have the biggest Toddler World Explorer though. I don't chase him, but I have to follow him to keep him safe. He runs down the middle of our street as far as he can and who knows how far he would go if I didn't insist on turning around eventually. Last week he was climbing a hill behind the park and then walking around the perimeter of the park on a sidewalk next to a big street.

I'm sure he would want to return to me eventually, but judging by how constantly he is running off to explore as far as he can go, I think it's likely he'd meet trouble if I let him go off by himself.

Did I do something anti-CC or is this a personality thing? My daughters didn't run off to explore afar like my son does.


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## Calm

I am a fairly strict CCer. I have a boy about to turn one. I took him for his first walk in the neighbourhood weeks ago and the first thing he did when I put him down is walk straight to the road. I, of course, had to pick him up and bring him back.

I'm not sure how to deal with this, other than to avoid walking near the road altogether, and avoid any parks near roads so I don't break the synapse for him. I let him walk up the stairs and all that... it's just this one thing is backfiring. Just thought I'd mention it... it doesn't always work in our favour. The environment must fit.


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## Periwinkle

I wouldn't start off with being near a road then. I would go to a big park and start there. Not only do you not want to be following/chasing after the child, but you also don't want to be calling to them or even facing them... your voice & body language reinforces that tie also. When it was time for us to leave the playground I would say, "Okay let's head back to our car now. Please follow me." and I would turn my body toward the car and sloooowly begin walking. Note: this is NOT the same thing as doing that annoying "I'm going to leave you here! I'm leaving now!" empty threat that a lot of moms do. My kids never ran after me shrieking thinking I was leaving them there _alone_.

And I should caveat all of this by saying that I actually started this from the time they could crawl. I would never chase them out of the room, I never played chase or hide-and-seek with my kids, and if I left the family room to go to the kitchen I would say "Mama is going to the kitchen now to make lunch" and slowly walk in. They follow eventually. It's human instinct.


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## leila1213

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 
you also don't want to be calling to them or even facing them... your voice & body language reinforces that tie also.

Facing them/body language - so so sooooo true. I find that when I have a difficult child (babysitting), and I need to watch him to make sure he is coming to the car or not wandering too far off, the most powerful thing I can do is _turn away_ from him. I have even explained to another mom at the park that this is what I was doing, to avoid her getting concerned. I told her I have to act like I don't care in order to get him to come back. Her response: "looks like it's working". Because he returned to the area that very moment!

But I have to disagree about calling to them; in some circumstances I have to do this to communicate that everyone else is leaving and that the child needs to do so as well. Or, I will call ahead to let him know there is a street and he needs to stop. (This is on a walk when I have to stay behind with younger kids.) He understands streets are dangerous and will stop. Yes, sometimes it might sound to others like those annoying empty threats, but if they're too dang far away and can't even see you - you have to do something. And calling out is waaaay preferable to me than running after...especially if there are other kids to be tended to.


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## NoliMum

Is it even possible to use CC when your kid is 3 and has already grown up with the chase-is-fun mentality? My DD is definitely one of those toddlers you see bolting into a busy street, and I am definitely one of those moms grabbing her by the collar to save her life. It doesn't matter how much fear I am giving off; she doesn't seem to catch on at all.

Instincts!?! Laughable. She's lost all of hers it seems.

I didn't even know about CC until she was about 2, and I didn't know how to implement until recently. We also have not been in a position to spend much time out doors (I will admit that it is partially my fault because I detest TX weather) which I think has wiped clean her natural instincts!


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## widemouthedfrog

Honestly, what I'd do is I'd find an outdoor location that works for you as a safe place...but is large enough so that she can run off a little. A trail would work, or a large playing field. Then go there any play a game or go for a hike and let her wander a bit. You're in the position (I think) of not knowing how far she'd go if you didn't call her back, right? So this is a chance for her to push those boundaries a bit and for you to see what happens.


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## NoliMum

Quote:


Originally Posted by *widemouthedfrog* 
Honestly, what I'd do is I'd find an outdoor location that works for you as a safe place...but is large enough so that she can run off a little. A trail would work, or a large playing field. Then go there any play a game or go for a hike and let her wander a bit. You're in the position (I think) of not knowing how far she'd go if you didn't call her back, right? So this is a chance for her to push those boundaries a bit and for you to see what happens.

Thanks for the advice.









Last week we went to a park with woods and I let her run free. She was with other kids, so she pretty much stayed with them the whole time. At one point I told her I wanted to walk the trail, so she took off running down the trail, around the corner and out of my site. I did notice that she kept looking back at me, but it was this "look how fast I can go away from you" kind of look, instead of what PP's have described their own CC'd kids doing. Eventually I called to her and asked her to wait up for us, because we wanted to walk together. She waited a little.... but not for long!

Nothing horrible has happened, but I am afraid that she won't know when to stop if there is a road or a ravine or something. I guess I should just keep practicing...?


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## berkeleyp

This strikes me as such a difficult part of the CC for many moms. I am intrigued by the idea that those kids play with machetes and don't get hurt and crawl around next to big pits without crawling in. Even before I read this book, I've never been a real hoverer and have let my kids be "on their own" more than some other moms but I can't imagine giving them a knife to play with ya know? My younger dd is 9months and crawling around and climbing up on things like crazy. For the most part, my house is pretty safe though I wouldn't go as far as to say child proof but there is always dirt and sticks from the wood by the fireplace, the wood itself, the dirt from dh's boots, not to mention the dog. The floor has lots of little potential choking hazards so I let my dd crawl around without being too picky but there are certain things I have to divert her from. Same with crawling on the bed - can you let a baby crawl around on a bed without them falling off? How much freedom do you give a baby?


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## webjefita

Quote:


Originally Posted by *berkeleyp* 
Same with crawling on the bed - can you let a baby crawl around on a bed without them falling off? How much freedom do you give a baby?


YOu know, I thought of this the other day because both of my babies *have* fallen off the bed, around 6-8 months. Maybe it was because they weren't crawling yet, and really had no idea they were up on a bed. I guess there would have been no way for them to put themselves up on the bed, so they had no way of knowing the danger. I love how she says that children were assumed to have the ability to make any decision that they took the initiative to make; ie the fact that they were making the decision meant they were ready for it. In that light, I guess, any place they can climb up, they can climb down from.

I actually saw this in action today, now that I think of it. I was babysitting a 2yr old and he decided to copy the bigger kids and climb up a plastic toy onto the roof of a small plastic shed. I went over and took him off. He did it again. I went back over to him, and he said he wanted to get down the same way he got up. I wasn't going to let him, but by the time I got to his side he had already lowered himself down onto the plastic toy. Then I relaxed and watched him maneuver himself down to the ground. Okay, lesson learned!









I find the "children follow me" thing pretty easy, but I had lots of practice with it. My DH still doesn't get it. We were at a restaurant the other day and it was time to go. What I do (and did) is, say, "Okay, we're leaving now." And get up and head toward the door (without looking back.) But he was "fussing" over them, telling them we had to go, standing and looking at them without moving, putting his hands on their shoulders and *putting them in front of him* I get so frustrated when he does stuff like this! But I just smiled and said, "oh you want them to lead you?"

Hopefully he is picking up on what I do. I know he usually does. It's pretty useless to try and talk to him about stuff, but if he sees that what I do works and that I am confident in it, he will try it. I just have to have faith in that process as well.


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## webjefita

Quote:


Originally Posted by *berkeleyp* 
I don't always have enough time to keep up on discussions like this but I just read the CC and am obsessed. I've been imagining ways to create a better tribe for myself IRL but have yet to implement any (I just read the book on Sunday).

I am really interested in how "modern" moms incorporate CC principles into their lives. I feel like my isolation from other families is such a huge obstacle to achieving CC lifestyle.

Anyway, I'm getting late for work but wanted to sub to this and hopefully have a chance to really participate later.

Hey, this is totally me, too. I have probably already posted something very similar. Hope we can get ideas from each other!

I'm not even feeling like I'm part of a cohesive culture within our home. DH and I have very different ideas about many aspects of childrearing. I'm only ME, one person. And I'm about to be outnumbered 3-1! LOL.


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## webjefita

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpeppers* 
Not chasing your kids is one of the biggest lessons I took for the Continuum Concept. It just makes so much sense. If you chase them, they will run. If you don't, they will come running back because they don't want to be far from you.

ITA. And, I've even been thinking lately about how I need to respond more appropriately to my 5 (almost 6)yo DS when he "hovers" around me. I need to remember that this is natural and that I *want* him to be interested and involved with me. Sometimes, as an exhausted SAHM, I just want to say "go play" or "go away, leave me alone" yk? Sigh. It's hard.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
Oh that and not complaining when doing chores.

I have a hard time with this, too. It's hard for me sometimes not to require them to help pick up, or whatever. I know what I should do, and I can usually do it, but sometimes it's like "pick it up or you're going to lose it!" Am I the only one?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommyMichele*
I have the biggest Toddler World Explorer though. I don't chase him, but I have to follow him to keep him safe. He runs down the middle of our street as far as he can and who knows how far he would go if I didn't insist on turning around eventually. Last week he was climbing a hill behind the park and then walking around the perimeter of the park on a sidewalk next to a big street.

Michele, I haven't had much of a problem with this. Maybe a little with my first, but I would just practice over and over the boundaries of our property and make clear just how far he was allowed to go. My younger one just stays with the older one, who is now almost 6 and has no problem respecting the boundaries. But one thing I did was make a game of, "let's run around the perimeter of our property," and we would yell "STOP!" and stop at each corner/boundary. Another thing that always works with my kids, is reading signs. So we have a STOP sign at the end of our street (we're on the corner) and we began with the 2yo reading it and saying "STOP" here. The other day we were at the hardware store, and the kids ran ahead and wanted to go up the stairs to the office part, and I simply and calmly said, "Wait a minute." They stopped. There happened to be a big sign on it that said "NO CHILDREN" so we read it and they respected that. Sometimes I actually pretend to read things but this won't work fo rmuch longer.


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## Limabean1975

Hi folks! I an occasional CC-type stuff dabbler; I think I've posted on this thread before.

I was just following the conversation here about not following or chasing your kids, letting them wander away, etc. We do pretty well with this, but I do call after him and sometimes physically turn him, etc.
The other day we were at a park by the river and it was great - he (my 3 year old) was on his bike, while I sat on some rocks talking to another mom. There were paved pathways all around, so he was biking in big circles around me, getting fairly far away bit never out of site for more than a moment (while passing behind a bush or something). I really felt like we had a good CC thing going there. But then he started calling to me - "Mom, come with me! Mom, come over here!", etc, and I wondered (as I lazily lounged on the rocks delaying going) what you do in this situation - do you go to them when they call to you, or wait for them to come to you? I did not *want* to go to him - so living as an adult doing my own thing my choice would have been to stay sitting...but I knew he wanted to share some good times with me, so I went.

Thoughts?


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## sweetpeppers

In reference to the street question: Talk about it, show him how fast the cars go, and how little he is, that they wouldn't see him, emphasize that cars go on the road and people go on the sidewalk, hold his hand, etc. etc. My son got it pretty quickly, particularly since we don't live in a house that is anywhere near the road, so this is just from when we were at other people's houses and stores.

In reference to the previous post: The come-here thing is the hardest part about CC-ing in our culture. Because there aren't other kids around all the time, especially with only (or first) children, we do have to do some playing and kind of fill in for the kids that they are missing in a more communal environment. That's the balancing act I feel like I do all day: trying to be the adult doing work but also not leaving him to have no one to play with either when we're home alone.


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## leila1213

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoliMum* 
Thanks for the advice.









Last week we went to a park with woods and I let her run free. She was with other kids, so she pretty much stayed with them the whole time. At one point I told her I wanted to walk the trail, so she took off running down the trail, around the corner and out of my site. I did notice that she kept looking back at me, but it was this "look how fast I can go away from you" kind of look, instead of what PP's have described their own CC'd kids doing. Eventually I called to her and asked her to wait up for us, because we wanted to walk together. She waited a little.... but not for long!

Nothing horrible has happened, but I am afraid that she won't know when to stop if there is a road or a ravine or something. I guess I should just keep practicing...?

When the kid I babysit does this, I have eventually resorted to turning around and walking the opposite way on the trail. He would usually get really upset that we were "leaving him", but it sure made him stop running away from us!


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## webjefita

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Limabean1975* 
But then he started calling to me - "Mom, come with me! Mom, come over here!", etc, and I wondered (as I lazily lounged on the rocks delaying going) what you do in this situation - do you go to them when they call to you, or wait for them to come to you? I did not *want* to go to him - so living as an adult doing my own thing my choice would have been to stay sitting...but I knew he wanted to share some good times with me, so I went.

Thoughts?

I guess my thought is, go with what you feel like doing. There are lots of times I don't want to get up and see what they're doing, and I've learned to not feel guilty saying, "I'm busy right now, " or "I'm doing something else." But if I'm not doing anything and I want to see what they want to show me, I'll go. That's just if they want company or an audience, which I do think they need like any social person. Now for whining or asking for help when I'm in the other room, I try to be consistent with telling them they have to come to me and I'll help them (bring the toy car and the wheels over here and I'll put them back on).


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## webjefita

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoliMum* 
Thanks for the advice.









Last week we went to a park with woods and I let her run free. She was with other kids, so she pretty much stayed with them the whole time. At one point I told her I wanted to walk the trail, so she took off running down the trail, around the corner and out of my site. I did notice that she kept looking back at me, but it was this "look how fast I can go away from you" kind of look, instead of what PP's have described their own CC'd kids doing. Eventually I called to her and asked her to wait up for us, because we wanted to walk together. She waited a little.... but not for long!

Nothing horrible has happened, but I am afraid that she won't know when to stop if there is a road or a ravine or something. I guess I should just keep practicing...?

Ummm... I would let her really think she's lost you one day. I have let that happen on a smaller scale once or twice with my kids. They really need to know what will happen if they don't stay with you. I know it's really hard to let them be out of sight but if you are sure you're in a safe place, I would sit down and not walk anymore until she came back to you. But every mother knows their own child best, I can only say what I think would work for my kids.


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## WuWei

I don't believe that it is the child's responsibility to prevent themselves from being traumatized _when the parent places them in a situation_ where the child doesn't have responsive resources available.

I do want to add that I am more of an advocate of suiting our American environment to our children's needs than expecting that they will adapt to an _unnatural_ environment from which they have no recourse. When that environment is organic such as the Yeguana tribe, that is a totally different realm than one artificially or arbitrarily imposed on a child without the child having a means of dissent.

For instance, I consider our home the organic environment from which our child does not have to leave _unless he chooses to "follow me_". And I do consider my own expectation not to leave him without adequate care, which is my responsibility to provide, such as *I did not birth into the natural order of an extended support system in our home/family/community.* *

Because I chose to birth into a nuclear family unit*, but chose also to *adopt* a CCish parenting/living practice, I am accountable to not obstruct or impose expectations that the CC children would not experience, imo. By insisting or expecting that our son will come with me against his will seems in opposition to the practices of the CC tribe from my understanding. I've never seen a quote or situation from the CC book otherwise.

In order to provide an equivalent freedom of the CC children, for our son to "follow me" or not, our son has the option to refuse leaving his 'organic home' environment, or I work to find a alternative which meets both my need for him to have adequate caregiving _and_ his to not "follow me". This effort on my part to replicate the *choice* that the CC children had, decreases the artificial and arbitrarily imposed environments to which children are generally objecting when they are "having a tantrum". This follows that imposing 'dressing to go out', 'hurry we have to be somewhere', 'having to get in the carseat', _when our son does not want to follow_ causes the emotional distress in ways that the CC children were not subjected.

Therefore, our son has the option not to leave his organic home environment or we find another solution. The same facilitation of choice occurs when he doesn't want to be somewhere, he has the option of going home with support. We work to find a solution to that also. It really doesn't follow that I can just take him somewhere (by car) and expect that he could get himself home, like the Yequana children. That is totally an artificial construct which *I* create, nothing like the indigenous Yequana tribe.

After ds was born I read TCC and adopted the "trust" ds to know best what he needs. And my mothering instinct kept me attuned to meeting his needs naturally, as we were naturally an interdependent dyad.

The aspects of TCC that I embrace are not interfering with a child's self-trust, not imposing teaching or engagement, and trusting that a child will learn through my modeling and his observation as a spectator of social situations, and me as a responsive resource. And I am confident that children desire to be harmonious social participants and attached to their community.

I really don't perceive ds, dh and me as separate "independent" entities in the way that our independent minded American culture promotes. So, there is no "adult-centered: child-centered" dichotomy from which we strive for a balance. We are an entity of a family. An _interdependent_ family: just as what affects one, affects the whole. Our goal is optimizing the health of the whole family unit and this is the natural order of community and social beings as the TCC tribe exists, imo. It is very much an "Americanism" to embrace an independence agenda, rather than to meet the needs of the whole family unit.

We are constantly attuned and attentive to each other as inseparable from Self. Which is what the mother/child bond is with babies, older children, and family included from my experience and understanding.

Self Trust is more protective than Self Doubt. I consciously and actively work at *not interfering* *with ds's inherent Self Trust*. However, when *I* choose to place him in an environment which is not a natural one for him to explore safely, it is MY responsibility to maintain a safe environment for him, imo. Did the child have the *CC freedom* *to NOT go* to the park, the restaurant, the store, the in-laws, the class, the playgroup, daycare, etc?

Scott Noelle's article about "Where's My Center?~ A closer look at child-centered parenting and the continuum concept" is more reflective of a parent-child attunement than Liedloff was aware of, imo, as she was a young Western observer, and not a parent herself. http://www.scottnoelle.com/parenting/child-centered.htm

"I'm in charge (of myself)" is a fairly common interpretation and implementation of the Continuum Concept, for both children and adults. *It is the delta between our inorganic environment and the original Yequana environment which creates the challenges*, ime. In a tribal environment with multi-generational models and "leaders", a child can *choose* who (among many) they emulate and follow, or remain with, or resource. Embracing the practices of self-determination and interconnectivity which were observed in the Yequana, necessitates more forethought in a nuclear family unit within an industrialized and mechanized society, ime.

The continuum concept implementation is challenging in our society!

Pat


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## KBug

I really like Scott Noelle's article and his philosophy in general which integrates CC into the reality of our culture here and now.


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## EnviroBecca

Quote:

Same with crawling on the bed - can you let a baby crawl around on a bed without them falling off?
With mine, yes, you could. At the top of the stairs, too. I have to give part of the credit to his temperament; he seems to have been born sensible.







But I like to think we enabled him to develop that sensibility, rather than stifling it, by placing him to sleep on a bed with no railing from birth. It's a mattress on box spring on the floor, so about 18" high. When he learned to roll over, he would roll around the bed while awake and get near the edge and explore it with his hand. He never once fell off the bed while awake. When he was sleeping I'd put pillows along the edge, and if he rolled up against the pillows he'd roll back...but a couple times he managed to squinch between them or to push a pillow off the bed and fall after it, so he landed on the floor, unhurt but awakened and frightened. I would calm him and put him back to bed. Once he could sit up, he'd sit quite close to the edge of the bed with his back to it, and I worried that he'd fall, but he knew his own balance and didn't. He never crawled off the bed or stairs until he knew how. I could see him thinking about it, then practicing by crawling on and off a thin cushion.


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## Periwinkle

Yeah - I taught my babies how to get down off of a bed or stairs when appropriate. Tots don't go flinging themselves off of high ledges, kwim? They really do perceive changes in height.


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## berkeleyp

Thanks for a link to that article. I'd like to read more about her theories applied to real situations.

Quote:

In reference to the street question: Talk about it, show him how fast the cars go, and how little he is, that they wouldn't see him, emphasize that cars go on the road and people go on the sidewalk, hold his hand, etc. etc. My son got it pretty quickly, particularly since we don't live in a house that is anywhere near the road, so this is just from when we were at other people's houses and stores.

In reference to the previous post: The come-here thing is the hardest part about CC-ing in our culture. Because there aren't other kids around all the time, especially with only (or first) children, we do have to do some playing and kind of fill in for the kids that they are missing in a more communal environment. That's the balancing act I feel like I do all day: trying to be the adult doing work but also not leaving him to have no one to play with either when we're home alone.
03-30-2009 09:29 PM
I tell friends that "ive put the fear of God in my daughter about the street" I'm not religious but I have intentionally scared her of the road since she was very little and am quite confident that she will not run in it. I always tell her how small she is and that cars could hit her and kill her or hurt her very very much. I've told her cars can't see her and that she has to be with a tall person on the street. I've also taught her to look both ways and she is pretty good about deciding when we should walk.

The lack of community is such a huge hindrince to this I feel. I know from experience that when my daughter has even one or two kids to play with - i barely see her for many hours at a time, especially if one or more of them is a bit older. My dh's cousin is 11 and when she is at family functions - she plays with my dd and her cousins and we don't hear a peep all day long. I am lucky to have my BIL and SIL next door and when they are home, my dd and her cousin who is 5 spend a lot of time in the back yard which is visible to both houses. People are sometimes amazed that they play by themselves outside for hours but we trust them. It is all too often however, that there is no one to play with but me so my dd is bored unless I interact with her.

Quote:

Therefore, our son has the option not to leave his organic home environment or we find another solution. The same facilitation of choice occurs when he doesn't want to be somewhere, he has the option of going home with support.
I admire this but how do you get around having to go places? I feel like if I implemented anything like this, I would potentially never leave my home.

Quote:

I have a hard time with this, too. It's hard for me sometimes not to require them to help pick up, or whatever. I know what I should do, and I can usually do it, but sometimes it's like "pick it up or you're going to lose it!" Am I the only one?
No - definetely not. I do make my dd pick up her stuff on threat of losing it. i am skeptical that her natural desire to help is strong enough given that she doesn't see a team of adults working together on things and naturally wants to help. She helps with some things voluntarily but I doubt she would ever pick up her toys without me asking her to help. I think it is easy in a nuclear family unit for a mom to become the maid yk? How do kids decide to help when they don't see anyone else helping?


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## webjefita

Quote:


Originally Posted by *berkeleyp* 
No - definetely not. I do make my dd pick up her stuff on threat of losing it. i am skeptical that her natural desire to help is strong enough given that she doesn't see a team of adults working together on things and naturally wants to help. She helps with some things voluntarily but I doubt she would ever pick up her toys without me asking her to help. I think it is easy in a nuclear family unit for a mom to become the maid yk? How do kids decide to help when they don't see anyone else helping?

Thanks, I was hoping I wasn't alone. I totally get the not seeing a team of people. It has been the coolest thing to see when DH and I *are*working on picking up, or folding laundry together, how much the kids get involved and seem so happy and content doing it. My 5yo even commented that he liked it. I wish we could do it more often, it just doesn't seem to happen that often that we do things together







: I guess I'm not sure why.

My little one, 3yo, helps out alot and automatically though. All I have to say, is, "Oh no, water on the floor" and he says "I'll help you." Or "I need a towel, " and he says, "I'll give you one." and he does. I guess I've been better with him than I was with my first. I do more of giving him information and letting him make the decision, and less requiring. I know it's a cycle, but my oldest has so little motivation and sometimes we feel like we have to provide it for him. Doesn't make sense, I know, but it's hard not to do.


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *berkeleyp* 
I admire this but how do you get around having to go places? I feel like if I implemented anything like this, I would potentially never leave my home.


I didn't go out alone, without ds, until ds was about 18 months old, when he had also become attached to my sister. (Mostly, due to my own attachment needs and desire to be available for ds, and his communicated need for me to be present/available nearby.) She created a bond, _with me on site_, and always available (over those 18 months). And I created the opportunities to meet my needs while ds still had me "with" him. Do you follow? I had "me" time while she did caretaking of ds in the same environment. I also had "me" time with dh caretaking while I was available on site.

Eventually, I was needed less and less and my sister was able to meet ds's needs to his comfort level. many people have this with their dh also. We introduced a mother's helper who bonded for months before babysitting alone. Because it was never agreeable to ds to be without me present/available/nearby. And I have always returned from an outing if he voiced a need for 'mama'.

This interconnectedness was joyful. And there are ways to meet my needs creatively without ds having distress due to my absence. Baths alone, reading alone, phone chats alone, walking in the yard alone, going for a walk in the neighborhood alone, shopping with a caretaker (sister or dh or mother's helper) for ds, dinners out with dh and my sister and ds along, etc. My friend and I met at the grocery and shopped together with/without kids, etc.

Another thing that helped me was to embrace the inseparability of ds and my life for this highly interdependent phase. I found that I could have "me" time while cuddling and thinking my own thoughts, reading and nursing, playdates with like-minded mamas, stroller walks for exercise, long drives to help him fall asleep while listening to music, watching a Baby Einstein video and having a cup of tea, etc. The inextricable oneness we shared for that short interdependent time became a part of my newly formed "Self", in a way that is nurturing and amazing to have 'mastered the challenge'. The challenge keeps changing and the opportunity for "figuring it out" with each new developmental stage is its own joy, intellectually, emotionally, physically and spiritually.

And wow, ds is delighted to stay with my sister, dh, babysitter, friends and family and I have tons of "me" time. Creating a routine of opportunities to get out by myself or with a caregiver along, or time for me at home with a mother's helper or dh caregiving has been a dance. Always being responsive to his communication and needs for connection, has allowed that to evolve organically.

And I'm an extrovert and ds and dh are both introverted homebodies.







Dh works 50 hours a week and travels out of town. My sister works full time and travels out of town. Dh and I have a weekly date night, when ds plays at my sister's. I have Tuesday evenings "off" for MNO. Dh cooks dinner for them. I have multiple holistic meetings, each month in the evenings. Saturday is "Daddy Day" and I run errands then. Dh has Monday and Friday evenings to work out at the YMCA. We have routine appointments for medical stuff. We go to the grocery, library, Costco, pet store, Walmart, Earth Fare, Blockbuster, restaurants, all the usual places. We listen and work it out between us.

HTH,
Pat


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## berkeleyp

Wu Wei - I think I misunderstood you. I thought that you don't go out with ds if he doesn't want to not that you never left him alone. I have not left my 9mo for more than an hour on a handful of occasions while I took a walk alone. I don't really want to be away from her right now and I know that she will grow to be independent of me and I will get the chance to do the things I've given up since her birth to be with her. I was very attached with my first but I wish I had worn her more and not pushed her toward sleeping in her own bed (even for a few hours/night) and going away from her starting when she was quite young.


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## WuWei

Quote:


Originally Posted by *berkeleyp* 
Wu Wei - I think I misunderstood you. I thought that you don't go out with ds if he doesn't want to

This is also correct. Ds doesn't have to leave home, if he doesn't want to go. We find a way for him to stay home. And we find a way for me to go out. He doesn't have to "follow me", when he doesn't want to go. We talk about who he'd like to stay with, their availability, and the options, and he chooses whether to come along. I could find an alternate caregiver or go another time, etc. Nurturing attached caregivers provides more flexibility, ime. Ds doesn't spend time with anyone he doesn't want to be with either. Nor do I.









Pat


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## riomidwife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *webjefita* 
This is so fascinating, I would love to hear more about your discussions!..... but I want to know MORE about societies the world over and see how many of these things from CC are common and hold up in other places.

DPs most recent experience in the jungle was in Panama, with one of the hunter-gatherer indigenous groups there. One thing that sticks out for our discussions upon his return was how their houses are on stilts, not entirely enclosed, and typically missing floor boards. He said at first it was hard to feel comfortable with the babies crawling around next to these big holes in the floor, but he realized soon enough that they figured out how to maneuver around on the floor and avoid the holes (although who knows, maybe accidents do happen?). Babies are carried in rebozos or wraps...He also heard babies cryng sproadically throught the night while he was sleeping in the jungle.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Harmony08* 
I already feel like I must have ruined my son's continuum. I let him play in his chair while I do kitchen things etc and he really enjoys playing on his mat. He has never really tolerated being worn for any long period of time. He loves to be held in arms, however. I just do a lot with one arm.... Now, he basically sleeps with us full time.

What can I do at this point to damage control his in arms period?

It's never too late to support you child in finding their instincts. Mothering is a process, and we are all constantly learning and unlearning and regretting and changing and growing. Sounds like you're doing well, having DS sleep with you. Even babies worn from birth can go through phases when the don't want to be worn. Keep offering and try different carriers if you can. Maybe offer during a time when DS would otherwise have to be constrained or uncomfortable. I's also be consious of dependence on inanimate baby-sitters, e.g., bouncy chairs, swings, those plasic blob chairs whatever they're called, etc. Let DS have his time on the floor to experience what that is like, physically unhindered by baby containers. You might also want to check out the Elimination Communication forum. ECing is another way to tune in to your child and get back to basics.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 
When it was time for us to leave the playground I would say, "Okay let's head back to our car now. Please follow me." and I would turn my body toward the car and sloooowly begin walking. Note: this is NOT the same thing as doing that annoying "I'm going to leave you here! I'm leaving now!" empty threat that a lot of moms do..

I saw this threat actually happen TODAY. A grandfather and roughly 3 year old GS were at the park, and GF kept telling the kid it was time to go. THe kid just looked at him blankly, and kept repeating "no", heading back to the slide, running around etc. I had already sensed the kid was clingy and needing attention because the minute we showed up he was trying to get my attention in various ways....Anyway, after so many rounds of this, the GF says "we'll I'm going" and heads to the car. NExt thing I know, I look over to see this poor child begin to spiral into despair, with this look on his face of utter abandonement. My heart broke for him. And the GF did actually pull out of the parking space and turn his car around, at which point the kid ran after him. Incredibly, deeply sad.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *berkeleyp* 
can you let a baby crawl around on a bed without them falling off? How much freedom do you give a baby?

The bed one is hard. We let DS crawl around pretty much on his own from the beginning, but our bed is close to the floor. We moved it down there so that we _could_ let him explore his world independently, and somewhat safely. He probably had a few falls, but very quickly figured it out. Same with stairs.

We didn't have stairs until DS was 11 months or so, and by that time we just let him go. Our friends with LOs older than DS at he time (some even 2) who would go up the stairs every so cautiously, looking back to see who was standing there biting their nails waiting for them to get to the top.....Of course, when visiting relatives and the like, everyone hoovered around trying to step in and "help" him, looking at us like we were crack heads for letting DS go up unassisted. But now, when we're at the park, or wherever, DS has an agility and comfort in his body that his peers don't often have, and I attribute this in large part to our consious efforts to let him explore his surroundings and know his limits from an early age.


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## Calm

Quote:

I tell friends that "ive put the fear of God in my daughter about the street" I'm not religious but I have intentionally scared her of the road since she was very little and am quite confident that she will not run in it. I always tell her how small she is and that cars could hit her and kill her or hurt her very very much. I've told her cars can't see her and that she has to be with a tall person on the street. I've also taught her to look both ways and she is pretty good about deciding when we should walk
Children are spontaneous. In _unnatural_ settings, I wonder if we can expect _natural_ instincts to protect them. For instance with the road, cars are going at an unnatural speed. There is nothing in nature that is as big and also going as fast as a car. Even if a child had intact instincts and a subconscious awareness of the road, this may not protect them in a normal childish moment that results in the child running in front of a moving vehicle.

I understand that continuum children have such profound awareness that they do not fall into waterways or firepits and do not cut themselves with knives. However, I wonder how this translates to something like a busy road. It may translate perfectly, I just think being such an unnatural setting, natural instincts may fail. I could also be wrong.

My nephew died on the road at the age of five due to a spontaneous burst of childish energy. Hit by a car, died on life support. If he had all his instincts intact, I wonder if he would have saved himself. I wonder if his subconscious awareness would have prevented him from running into that danger zone without him even having to think of it consciously. It's worth thinking about, but at the same time, I do wonder about unnatural settings.


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## webjefita

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riomidwife* 
DPs most recent experience in the jungle was in Panama, with one of the hunter-gatherer indigenous groups there. One thing that sticks out for our discussions upon his return was how their houses are on stilts, not entirely enclosed, and typically missing floor boards. He said at first it was hard to feel comfortable with the babies crawling around next to these big holes in the floor, but he realized soon enough that they figured out how to maneuver around on the floor and avoid the holes (although who knows, maybe accidents do happen?). Babies are carried in rebozos or wraps...He also heard babies cryng sproadically throught the night while he was sleeping in the jungle.


This is very interesting, thanks!

Does anyone know of other books that look at other cultures in the way the TCC looked at Yequana? I know there was some in Our Babies Ourselves but I read it so long ago. I would love some reading suggestions.

The other week I began to watch a program on Travel Chanel about two guys who went to live with the Machigenga tribe in Peru. It was very interesting to watch. Although there wasn't much about babies or childrearing in the shows I watched.


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## NoliMum

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
I don't believe that it is the child's responsibility to prevent themselves from being traumatized _when the parent places them in a situation_ where the child doesn't have responsive resources available.

I agree. I would never let it escalate to the point of her actually thinking she was lost. That seems cruel and unnecessary.

In fact, Pat, your entire post was very insightful and I really appreciate it.

What I did yesterday at the park: I would say, "We are going to the playground to meet our friends now, follow me please," and start walking. Every time she would find something interesting to look at, climb on, play with, and forget about me. I stood behind a tree and watched her to see what she'd do. Eventually (long enough for me to have actually left without her, had I never stopped and looked!) she looked up and didn't see me, and started calling out, "Mommy, Mommy wait!" but she wasn't frantic. At that moment, I made myself seen, but did not come running to her. I simply returned to her view and continued walking, asking her to follow.

Guess what- she didn't follow!

I will continue to practice but I will also respect that she has her own will and it doesn't make sense for me to get up and leave, with or without her, and expect that she'll immediately want to follow. She has not grown up in a world like the Yequana's. She has grown up in a world where the parents make the ultimate decision, but they also bend and flex to suit her needs and preferences. So a normal scenario for her is this: I will suggest leaving and she will plant herself down and _suggest to me_ that she is not ready, and I will wait. If I leave without her (or let her perceive that I have left), I'm damaging her trust that I respect her needs and preferences too. If I insist that she leaves with me and force her physically, I'm damaging that trust again.

But I have needs and preferences too, and so does everyone else. At times I have had to carry her out of a place, squirming and protesting, because she is not the only person on the planet and someone else has a need to be tended to. Or she has a need, for a nap for instance, that she isn't recognizing, and I have to take steps to meet that need that she might not like.

This is the reality of the world we live in.

I am off to read that Noelle article...


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## webjefita

Quote:

My nephew died on the road at the age of five due to a spontaneous burst of childish energy. Hit by a car, died on life support. If he had all his instincts intact, I wonder if he would have saved himself. I wonder if his subconscious awareness would have prevented him from running into that danger zone without him even having to think of it consciously. It's worth thinking about, but at the same time, I do wonder about unnatural settings.
I'm so sorry. That is an awful tragedy.

I have some thoughts about how children learn about danger but I haven't thought them through well enough to type them out. But I don't think that all of the self-preservation that TCC children show is instinct, some of it is learned through experience in the first year or so.

Quote:

So a normal scenario for her is this: I will suggest leaving and she will plant herself down and suggest to me that she is not ready, and I will wait. If I leave without her (or let her perceive that I have left), I'm damaging her trust that I respect her needs and preferences too. If I insist that she leaves with me and force her physically, I'm damaging that trust again.
I agree and I would also not threaten to leave without the child or physically force them, but there is a difference between "I'm leaving you here" and "We're going now." I always say it with full confidence that my children are going to follow, and include them by saying "we."

As far as getting lost, if the child doesn't learn to follow mom/dad that becomes a real possibility, and they need to know that. I think it is safer for them to learn to share in that responsibility than for them to think I am always keeping track of their whereabouts. With soon to be 3, I think it would be impossible, so I'm glad my older two know how to stay with me and have little/no inclination not to.


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## widemouthedfrog

Nolimum, once a week dd and I go on a "hike". Generally, I do everything in the hike on her time frame. It's quite freeing, actually. I find that we tend to walk quite naturally together during that time, and I don't need to pull her along with my words because we are just walking together.

It's when I express a need to go somewhere and push her with my words and don't make it part of the flow of the activity that I encounter a lot of resistance. For example, when we're trying to get out of the house to catch the bus to preschool and we have slept in, that's when the conflict occurs.

Maybe try creating a time (an afternoon?) when you can be outside and wander, to get into the groove of walking together, without the push and pull of words and schedules?

Calm, that is such a sad story. We don't live near a road, but we do have a parking lot nearby. The only time I worry about dd playing outside without me is when she gets engaged in a chasing game, excited, and runs into the parking lot. I think that we are gradually getting there with the idea that the parking lot is NOT somewhere she should go without me right now. When the kids play road hockey and bike in the parking lot, I'm on the sidelines. They are learning how to go to the side, but they are just so short and cars don't see them. Luckily, the cars that come in are normally driven by the parents of the kids who are playing there.


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## riomidwife

: Wondering what you all's approach to meals and family table time is?

DS used to happily sit at the table through most of diner until a few months ago (about 19 months). Now he will sit for 2 minutes, hardly eat, then boldly declare "DONE!"







It's pretty funny.

We're pretty laid back about how/where people eat in our house. DS lieks to roam around the kitchen while eating. His parents has enforced tabletime and as an only child he absolutely dreaded it and now resists formal dining at all costs. I was very often left to fend for myself, and my single mother was not all that interested in forcing us to sit at the table staring at each other every night over diner....

So we're trying to forge our own philosophy about family meal time and eating together....Now when DS is "DONE" he climbs out of the chair and does his own thing, which i am fine with. But if I can get him back in the chair, which he will often do rather easily, he will hapily eat more.

Because we're also dealing with food sesnitivity issues, his diet is pretty restricted and I want him to get all the calories he can, so I am inlcined to encourage him to stay sitting with us at the table. But the bulk of me wants to honor his desires to be free and do whatever, run around the table, try a new chair, fuss, etc.

I'd love to hear how you all approach family meals (so most likely supper) in your house!


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## flowers

riomidwife: I just wrote a post about this exact thing!

http://infinitelearners.com/2009/03/family-dinner/


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## flowers

Another thought: I am sure that even in the most ideal of continuum societies children died from a tragic accident. It's not like any peoples are exempt from losing a little one, but I'm not thinking the group then outlawed a certain behavior. Maybe just naturally the children stayed away from a certain ravine after it proved dangerous. Or maybe it is more realistic that they just called it an accident and let it be at that. Our society seems to want to find something or someone to blame when sometimes an accident is just an accident.

When I first started implementing CC into our lives 5 years ago I stayed very aware of the differences between the tribe in the book and the modern city life we live. I took the ideals and the truths I resonated with and then adapted them to fit our lifestyles, using my intuition as a guiding factor. There were times when using a cc belief was an amazing gift for our family and there have been other times where I have acted like the Mother Bear deciding that the situation needed me to design some safety parameters.


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## riomidwife

Flowers, thanks for sharing your blog post! How old are your LO(s)?
I thought this was a juicy topic, but maybe I'm alone here


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## flowers

My boys are 4.5 and 1.5.

I think it's a juicy topic too!

I notice the more access my kids have to snacks the less likely they are to sit with us to dinner, but if the cupboards are bare and the only food around is the prepared meal then they sit and eat. I just don't know what to do about those observations!







I like letting my kids eat when they are hungry and let them choose healthy snacks through out the day, but I also like them sitting to eat. There must be a win-win in all of this.

(riomw...i like you siggy btw







)


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## EnviroBecca

Growing up, we had family dinners, though not as strict as Flowers's--we were allowed to eat at a friend's house, miss one dinner a week for dance class, have an occasional meal on TV trays when something good was on, etc. But reading at the table was forbidden because it deterred conversation--even though we often found little to talk about and the conversation was thus quite boring.

When I was very young, I was allowed to leave the table when I was done eating, with the understanding that once Mom cleared the table I wouldn't get to eat any more until dessert. (In my family, dessert was a separate meal eaten just before bedtime and was usually along the lines of canned fruit or yogurt.) Around 5 years old, I remember being taught to say, "May I please be excused?" and then carry my dishes to the kitchen before I moved on.

In my home now, dinner is much less structured, but it's gotten better recently. When I went back to working 40-hour weeks, I began to feel even more strongly that EnviroDaddy, who works at home, should cook dinner while I am picking up our child and getting home--because when I started cooking after getting home at 7:00, my entire evening went into cooking, eating, and then putting to bed a kid who was mad about not getting to do anything after dinner, and I didn't have time for anything else! Now EnviroDaddy makes dinner on weeknights, and we often give in to EnviroKid's requests to watch TV while eating because it helps him work in all the things he wants to do in an evening AND it gives us a chance to talk together! (Liedloff says the Yequana children, and children in other continuum cultures like Bali, are fairly quiet during meals and don't interrupt adult conversation.)

We had been having trouble with EnviroKid demanding different food than what we'd made and sometimes refusing to eat the first thing he wanted and whining for something else. Now he and Daddy plan the week's dinner menu on Sunday, and he may eat what's for dinner or eat leftovers, but we will not make him any new foods. That's working pretty well.

We allow reading at the table unless somebody says, "Please stop reading while I'm talking to you." (That goes for reading at other times, too!) EnviroDaddy and I find that reading while we eat often leads to conversation, in that one of us will say, "Listen to this!" and then we wind up putting down our reading materials and discussing it.







We look forward to our kid being able to read too.


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## zansmama

When ds was that age, he was still nursing so much that I didn't really worry about meals... I just gave him lots of finger foods and let him eat what he wanted... I also kept snacks available, such as almonds or fruits/veggies, since I feel like mealtime is more of a communal thing, a connection time. So if he wants to snack all day long and then chat through dinner, that's fine with me. (DP and I get our conversations in after bedtime)(ds is a terrible interrupter, but I remind myself that, of course he is: his continuum is off since he's not surrounded by a little tribe of kids to chatter with 24/7)
As far as sitting goes... the guideline we try to go by is: if you get down, then you are finished. But ds seems to have a really, really hard time sitting still, so we go for harmony.
But: ALL that is available is what's on the table! No looking through the cupboards and coming up with your own meal. (that's more of a snacktime thing) I really feel it's important to show respect to the person who prepared the meal, and of course, we make sure that what is offered is something that he likes.


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## jennchsm

Subbing!

I finally managed to read TCC after borrowing a copy form my LLL chapter, and found the first few chapters really interesting. I was really fascinated with how her ideas lined up so well with contemporary popular ideas about learning (e.g. socio-cultural learning theories) and parenting, despite being written more than 30 years ago.

Reading TCC was in a way an affirmation of the way I've been parenting so far. I'm looking forward to reading posts here!


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## sweetpeppers

I think it's nice to sit down to a meal with the family, but there's no reason for everyone to have to eat or have to eat the same things. My two year old will sit down with us to eat for a little while, and then he gets bored and finds something else to do. Mealtimes are more fun for grownups, because we like to talk. Kids like to do things, but they also like to be included. It's the same with everything else you do with a CC mindset: kids shouldn't be forced to act like adults, when they want to, they will. Being forced to eat "family" meals all through childhood is why teenagers avoid it when possible (or why we did in my family).


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## mormontreehugger

*subbing*

This stuff makes so much more sense than anything I've found so far and I am SO relieved that I don't have to put my life completely on hold and let my house go to pot in order to give my kid enough attention. Holy cow. I was sooo dreading that. I'm pretty sure I have ADD, and playing kids games makes me want to run away and hide. I couldn't imagine years of teeth-gritting to make sure my children were 'well-adjusted'...

My mom used some of these concepts and my siblings and I are just about the most well-adjusted people among all our peers. Not that we don't have our own issues....


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## transformed

I'd like to join. I struggle with cl but I am trying - it _feels_ right to me.


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
I'd like to join. I struggle with cl but I am trying - it _feels_ right to me.

Ah, but this is _CC_


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## transformed

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama* 
Ah, but this is _CC_
















so i need the book. LOL.


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## Periwinkle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flowers* 
Another thought: I am sure that even in the most ideal of continuum societies children died from a tragic accident. It's not like any peoples are exempt from losing a little one, but I'm not thinking the group then outlawed a certain behavior. Maybe just naturally the children stayed away from a certain ravine after it proved dangerous. Or maybe it is more realistic that they just called it an accident and let it be at that. Our society seems to want to find something or someone to blame when sometimes an accident is just an accident.

Well, more typically, the societies blamed something OUTSIDE their locus of control, e.g., fate or the whims of the gods, whereas our society likes to think that everything is WITHIN our control.


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## leila1213

DD is almost 3 and I take her along with me to babysit for 2 different families.
The one I need help with has 2 boys, 3 yo and 19 mos. The mom is a friend of mine, tries really hard and believes in AP concepts, but did not come from an AP household. Her grandmother raised her and lives with them, using spanking (not in front of us), yelling, threats, shaming, etc. So the older boy has picked up on things like yelling "bad!" while wagging his finger, and is a rampant toy-snatcher (for no reason other than he can). The younger one has picked up on the reactions that these behaviors get, and overreacts to them, screaming and falling on the floor, throwing things, etc. And of course they both run away from me whenever I need them to follow along for some reason.

I had thought that DD and I were doing reasonably well with the whole situation, but today has me thinking that I need to make some serious changes. She has always been excited to play with them, even though they are sometimes mean to each other. And I just focused on keeping things moving (going to the park, moving through different rooms/activities), staying out of the kids' way as long as they weren't fighting, and getting to the end of the day without major incident. DD & the 3 yo haven't been able to nap when we're there, so that adds to the mayhem. Not something I want to do full time, but I could handle a few 1/2 days and maybe 1 full day per week (which is what I've been doing).

Maybe today was just a particularly bad day because the older boy was overtired, but I was completely at the end of my rope. My nerves were totally shot. Every chance they got, they (DD & the older boy mostly; the younger one got a nap) were at each other's throats or getting into something they knew they shouldn't, not listening/running away, etc. And now it looks like I'll be doing 2-3 full days per week with them! Please give me some ideas on what to do. I feel like I need to go through a hypnosis-for-toddler-care class or something (to control MY reactions/behavior, not them!). Come to think of it, I do have the book The Happiest Toddler On The Block. Would that help me? Thanks in advance for any suggestions!!!


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## leila1213

Anybody?


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## Periwinkle

I would avoid a situation like that like the plague, but obviously if you need it financially you need it financially. You are not in any position to effect change on their behavior, unfortunately, so you basically need to decide that the money is worth it or not.


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## zansmama

Okay.
I have been in (sort of) similar situations... I would talk very seriously with the mother about the effect of the grandmother' behaviour on your daughter. It is important to go into this with your boundaries clear. I would also be willing, if the mother asks, to sit down with her and the grandmother. Be very non-judgemental, however, with lots of "I statements" (I feel this way about xyz, my daughter feels this way). I would make it clear that in order for you to effectively care for these kids there needs to be some continuity in "discipline" practices.
And then, I would make it clear, to yourself and the kids, that when you are there, it's your style, your situation. And you can tell the kids, in a very simple way, without putting any parent/grandparent down, that these are your rules. "We are friendly to each other, we help each other." I have seen, personally, kids turn their behaviour around while I am caring for them. It can be done. And your dd can benefit from learning to stand up for herself, too. It has been good for my ds.
As far as mischievous behaviour goes... be clear with what's okay, what's not okay. Kids are very well directed by positive statements: tell them what to do, not what NOT to do. Also, be outside as much as possible. Try to be in a space where nothing, or not much, is forbidden, that way you don't have to say no very much at all.
I feel like these things CAN be done, as long as you are very clear with your own boundaries. The main problems that i have run into arose from me not being assertive enough.

let us know how it goes!

P.S.the more time you have with these kids, the more influence you have, and the more responsive they will be to you.


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## leila1213

Thanks. Let me think about this some more.


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## AngelBee

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
so i need the book. LOL.


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## leila1213

Bumping.


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## jrose_lee

I just need a little support maybe














We just had a wonderful homebirth two weeks ago and had our second son! Yay!







: I just can't help but think that CC is more difficult with the second child. With ds1 I napped in the bed with him tons and wore him also. Now, with ds2, there are no more naps at all and I'm literally wearing him all day. Even though I've been using a wrap, I'm sore from it. It's tiring in more ways than that too! I'm sure many of you have been there.

Don't get me wrong.... I love wearing ds2 and I wouldn't have it any other way. I guess this just seems so much more all-consuming the second time around....and dealing with ds1 as well! Also, ds2 doesn't seem quite used to being worn all around and doesn't sleep that soundly when being worn. Sometimes I think he just wishes I'd lay him down already! LOL!

Maybe I'm just whining a little







I know that I am very blessed to have two wonderful boys. Wouldn't mind hearing from other people who have done CC with more than one child....


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## Periwinkle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jrose_lee* 
I just need a little support maybe














We just had a wonderful homebirth two weeks ago and had our second son! Yay!







: I just can't help but think that CC is more difficult with the second child. With ds1 I napped in the bed with him tons and wore him also. Now, with ds2, there are no more naps at all and I'm literally wearing him all day. Even though I've been using a wrap, I'm sore from it. It's tiring in more ways than that too! I'm sure many of you have been there.

Don't get me wrong.... I love wearing ds2 and I wouldn't have it any other way. I guess this just seems so much more all-consuming the second time around....and dealing with ds1 as well! Also, ds2 doesn't seem quite used to being worn all around and doesn't sleep that soundly when being worn. Sometimes I think he just wishes I'd lay him down already! LOL!

Maybe I'm just whining a little







I know that I am very blessed to have two wonderful boys. Wouldn't mind hearing from other people who have done CC with more than one child....

Oh my gosh I'm so glad you posted this question. This is my personal "thing" with CC and AP and all of it. Here's the thing... no where in the history of humankind - and I don't care if you're in South America in the middle of the rain forest in the year 10,000 B.C. or if you're in London in the year 2009 - have mothers had to mother CONSTANTLY. They all have aunties, sisters, mothers, nanas, friends, other daughters and sons, etc. to pitch in, wear the baby AND watch the baby (yes, in a basket or on a quilt) while mom does OTHER STUFF. You need to put the baby down? Put him down! I'm a huuuuuuge fan of CC and wore my babies (or had them worn - I had twins so my first were worn by me and someone else instead of just by me) all the time but no one says they can't be put down. Certainly no one from any of these "primitive" tribes. Sure babies are worn a lot, but they are also put down sometimes and if your baby sleeps better or your back is hurting, put him in a hammock or on a warm sheep skin or in the criss-crossed lap of a friend or whatever. I'm not into the CC/AP martyr thing







but I am hugely into doing what works for you and your baby. I think babywearing is a win-win, but sometimes ya gotta put that baby down!


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## holyhelianthus

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 
In no particular order here are the things that I find very important at being CC with older children (and I should caveat all of this by saying I'm not actually *trying* to be CC or follow any specific parenting program, but I find an affinity between some of the points in CC and a general desire on my and dh's part to better connect our kids with the natural experiences and environments that have promoted healthy growth and development for millenia):

1.) Let kids be in nature as much as possible. REAL nature... not manufactured nature like zoos or plastic playgrounds, but nature walks, streams, hikes, woods, lying on the grass looking at the sky, digging in the mud, etc etc.

2.) ZERO video games.

3.) Minimum TV. We do let the kids watch TV now (they didn't until they were 4 1/2) and we very much enjoy things like Movie Night. In fact, some movies (dare I say this, lol) such as "Swiss Family Robinson" are extremely interesting to my kids. No ads ever.

4.) Very careful about books. We read a lot of books, but I am really careful about what messages the books are sending. I look for books that include nature, are about exploration, provide reinforcing messages about how to treat people, etc.

5.) Foster sense of personal responsibility for our home/garden and for our community. We don't do allowance, for example, and my kids are never paid for doing chores around the house. They pitch in and help out when needed, and there are also specific things ("chores", but we don't call them that) that they have to take care of each day. In terms of community, little things like while walking down the street if we see trash, we pick it up, to big things like volunteering for charity.

6.) Maintaining a garden. The kids help out with ALL yardwork, as a matter of course, almost daily. We also have a vegetable garden this year which has been more of a learning tool than I ever could have imagined, and beyond that they seem to have a real pride in providing for our family.

7.) Down with commercialism and consumer culture. No characters, no brand consciousness. This doesn't mean they're not aware of what things cost... they are (and IMO should be). But they don't perceive clothes from X store to be _better than_ clothes from Y store, and certainly not that it confers any value onto them as people to wear A brand or B style. But we DO talk about things like, hmmm, this dress from Hanna Andersson is $39... let's see, that is about how much money we spend each month on milk or electricity to run the lights. We look at other options or we buy the dress but ask her to take care of it. It's not about guilt, it's about understanding that money doesn't grow on trees for ANYONE and just because we want something doesn't mean we run right out and buy it.

8.) Cooking with us / visiting farms / local food movement. Our kids know why we don't eat bananas in July. They know why we don't buy apples from Chile. They come with us to local farms to pick fruit and veggies, and select our meat, eggs, etc. They cook with us and come with me to the grocery store even though, sure it would be easier for me to go myself. I think there's a big tie in with appreciating where food comes from and what real foods is.

The one area where, if I had to do it all over again (lol) I would change is the toys. I think because our first were twins and the first grandchildren for some of their grandparents, they got pretty impressively spoiled. We have a lot of toys. Now we have never done blinking light/character plastic stuff, but still... a lot of toys are a lot of toys even if it's Haba and Magic Cabin and Playmobil and wood etc. I think the issue is almost more the fact that they're TOYS as oppsoed to what they're made out of -- does that make sense or do you all think I'm crazy, lol?? I mean, we have a playroom. It's filled with toys. I am really good about going through it with the kids and filling boxes to donate, but still... we have a room in our house devoted to.... to.... things.







Wouldn't do that one over again if I could. I still fantastize about sneaking in there and packing up everything except the most beloved toys. And compared to a lot of other people, we have few toys (and of course compared to many people, we have so much - not trying to sound ungrateful at all







it's not that it's just when I think about what my kids actually get enjoyment out of it's a.) doing something (esp. a project) with us, and b.) being outside. And books. Hmm.... writing all this out is making me think with the start of school, I need to rethink the toy thing and how we handle it in our home.

Sorry to







ramble on. Just the questions about how to do this with older kids is near and dear to my heart since I technically only have older kids now (3 y.o. and two 6 y.o.'s).








: to read others' ideas on this.

Reading through this thread and felt that this post needed to be repeated!








:


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## Periwinkle

Aw Maggie you're sweet to repeat that. And I read my own words written a year ago and I am laughing because we just passed the twins' birthday and OMG the damn toys again!!! Now we have two 7 year-olds (just finishing 1st grade) and a 4 year-old, and we STILL have a playroom and it STILL annoys the crap out of me on like 10 different levels that we have a room in our house devoted to things. And here's the thing... this year I've noticed they play in it less and less. Anyone else have a rec room or play room that the kids basically use as a giant dumping ground, but they go in, find the toy they want to play with, and then come back into the main part of the house where, you know, the _people_ are, and play with it there? So a few weekends ago, I began my stealth work. We have 6 bookshelves in there that store the toys (in bins etc.). One now is entirely devoted to my old children's books. Another to board games and other family games. All of the other toys (Lego, Playmobil, trains, and sciencey stuff mostly) are on the other four shelves and I'm trying to figure out a way to move their toys into their rooms without losing my mind and having to clean up tiny Playmobil bits before bed every night. Anyway, thanks for reminding me to keep fighting the good fight re: our playroom and toy overdrive.


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## transformed

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 
In no particular order here are the things that I find very important at being CC with older children (and I should caveat all of this by saying I'm not actually *trying* to be CC or follow any specific parenting program, but I find an affinity between some of the points in CC and a general desire on my and dh's part to better connect our kids with the natural experiences and environments that have promoted healthy growth and development for millenia):

1.) Let kids be in nature as much as possible. REAL nature... not manufactured nature like zoos or plastic playgrounds, but nature walks, streams, hikes, woods, lying on the grass looking at the sky, digging in the mud, etc etc.

2.) ZERO video games.

3.) Minimum TV. We do let the kids watch TV now (they didn't until they were 4 1/2) and we very much enjoy things like Movie Night. In fact, some movies (dare I say this, lol) such as "Swiss Family Robinson" are extremely interesting to my kids. No ads ever.

4.) Very careful about books. We read a lot of books, but I am really careful about what messages the books are sending. I look for books that include nature, are about exploration, provide reinforcing messages about how to treat people, etc.

5.) Foster sense of personal responsibility for our home/garden and for our community. We don't do allowance, for example, and my kids are never paid for doing chores around the house. They pitch in and help out when needed, and there are also specific things ("chores", but we don't call them that) that they have to take care of each day. In terms of community, little things like while walking down the street if we see trash, we pick it up, to big things like volunteering for charity.

6.) Maintaining a garden. The kids help out with ALL yardwork, as a matter of course, almost daily. We also have a vegetable garden this year which has been more of a learning tool than I ever could have imagined, and beyond that they seem to have a real pride in providing for our family.

7.) Down with commercialism and consumer culture. No characters, no brand consciousness. This doesn't mean they're not aware of what things cost... they are (and IMO should be). But they don't perceive clothes from X store to be _better than_ clothes from Y store, and certainly not that it confers any value onto them as people to wear A brand or B style. But we DO talk about things like, hmmm, this dress from Hanna Andersson is $39... let's see, that is about how much money we spend each month on milk or electricity to run the lights. We look at other options or we buy the dress but ask her to take care of it. It's not about guilt, it's about understanding that money doesn't grow on trees for ANYONE and just because we want something doesn't mean we run right out and buy it.

8.) Cooking with us / visiting farms / local food movement. Our kids know why we don't eat bananas in July. They know why we don't buy apples from Chile. They come with us to local farms to pick fruit and veggies, and select our meat, eggs, etc. They cook with us and come with me to the grocery store even though, sure it would be easier for me to go myself. I think there's a big tie in with appreciating where food comes from and what real foods is.

The one area where, if I had to do it all over again (lol) I would change is the toys. I think because our first were twins and the first grandchildren for some of their grandparents, they got pretty impressively spoiled. We have a lot of toys. Now we have never done blinking light/character plastic stuff, but still... a lot of toys are a lot of toys even if it's Haba and Magic Cabin and Playmobil and wood etc. I think the issue is almost more the fact that they're TOYS as oppsoed to what they're made out of -- does that make sense or do you all think I'm crazy, lol?? I mean, we have a playroom. It's filled with toys. I am really good about going through it with the kids and filling boxes to donate, but still... we have a room in our house devoted to.... to.... things.







Wouldn't do that one over again if I could. I still fantastize about sneaking in there and packing up everything except the most beloved toys. And compared to a lot of other people, we have few toys (and of course compared to many people, we have so much - not trying to sound ungrateful at all







it's not that it's just when I think about what my kids actually get enjoyment out of it's a.) doing something (esp. a project) with us, and b.) being outside. And books. Hmm.... writing all this out is making me think with the start of school, I need to rethink the toy thing and how we handle it in our home.

Sorry to







ramble on. Just the questions about how to do this with older kids is near and dear to my heart since I technically only have older kids now (3 y.o. and two 6 y.o.'s).








: to read others' ideas on this.

I love this







- so inspiring. Have no clue how anyone actually pulls this off IRL though. I certainly wish I could!


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## holyhelianthus

What are you having trouble with, Jenny?


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## NoliMum

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 
Aw Maggie you're sweet to repeat that. And I read my own words written a year ago and I am laughing because we just passed the twins' birthday and OMG the damn toys again!!! Now we have two 7 year-olds (just finishing 1st grade) and a 4 year-old, and we STILL have a playroom and it STILL annoys the crap out of me on like 10 different levels that we have a room in our house devoted to things. And here's the thing... this year I've noticed they play in it less and less. Anyone else have a rec room or play room that the kids basically use as a giant dumping ground, but they go in, find the toy they want to play with, and then come back into the main part of the house where, you know, the _people_ are, and play with it there? So a few weekends ago, I began my stealth work. We have 6 bookshelves in there that store the toys (in bins etc.). One now is entirely devoted to my old children's books. Another to board games and other family games. All of the other toys (Lego, Playmobil, trains, and sciencey stuff mostly) are on the other four shelves and I'm trying to figure out a way to move their toys into their rooms without losing my mind and having to clean up tiny Playmobil bits before bed every night. Anyway, thanks for reminding me to keep fighting the good fight re: our playroom and toy overdrive.









I totally feel ya there. I only have ONE kid and she has way too many toys. My big hobby (and hopefully business soon) is making wooden toys, so of course she is my primary tester and gets the "first run" of any new toy I make. It just keeps piling up and up...

Luckily we have Ebay and Yahoo groups that are great for selling toys. We also have quite a few friends with younger children who are on the receiving end of our older stuff that isn't too valuable to give away. (We definitely need the money from selling her expensive stuff)

I've been trying to slowly replace much of her toys with sticks and stones. Her block box has all the manufactured blocks at the bottom, and the sticks and logs and rocks are all at the top. I've also started shaping my wood scraps into free-form blocks, too.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having a reasonable selection of toys- after all, they are a big part of our culture, and CC does not exclude cultural norms at all, as long as they coincide with a natural childhood, right? EG, it may exclude brand consciousness in our culture, because that doesn't have anything to do with natural childhood. But it doesn't exclude common childhood songs, stories, toys, and games that are in our culture, because all those things do occur naturally in childhood.... am I getting this right?


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## KnitLady

I've been following thid thread just through subscribing to the thread and reading the posts through my email. For whatever reason, through all of this I got somewhay confused about the current topic of dicussion. I thought there was a discussion about what CC is to you. Since I alreadt typed it all out, I figured I may as well post it. I'd love to hear what CC is to you as well!

1.) There is no work. All activities are just that, activities. We can find joy in anything we do. I'm trying to model this especially for cleaning.

2.) Babywearing as much as possible. I wear my new babe pretty much the entire time I'm awake.

3.) Respect. I strive to treat all people with respect, including babies and toddlers. If someone is crying, I believe them and never assume manipulation.

4.) Trust. I trust my children to be responsible for their own safety. This doesn't mean I don't guide or that I throw them to the wolves. It does mean I don't gasp or hover or help (unless asked) at the playground. I trust that if DS believes he can do it, or feels confident enough to try it, then I trust him. This is one area where the modern world comes crashing in. I don't expect DS to know that electrical outlets are dangerous, or playing in the street, or not riding in a carseat. This area includes both me trusting him, and me guiding him depending on the situation.

5.) Involvement. I involve my children in everything I do. I expect DS to want to be with me and involved in every activity. He cooks with me, does laundry, cleans, helps in the garden, etc. All of these activities really are times of joy together. We often talk or make games out of what we are doing. If he chooses another activity instead, that is fine. There is no pressure.

6.) Asking once. I struggle with this one a lot! I remember reading in the book that the Yequana only ask children to do something once. Asking multiple times starts to give the impression that you only mean your request when you ask the 15th time. If the request isn't followed through, I say nothing. Either that request has time to work it's way in his mind and start to bother him, or he goes off and forgets. Eventually I will do whatever the request was. I try to be careful how I phrase things. Instead of saying, "Can you please put that book on the shelf, pleeeeeeease?" with a question inflection, I try to say, "put the book back on the shelf, please.". I then turn back to whatever I'm doing. If I stand there and watch to see if he will follow through, he probably won't. Watching like that gives the impression that I don't expect him to do it. Not watching shows that I expect he will do it, and I believe it helps him to feel he is deciding to follow the request rather than being slightly coerced into it because I'm watching. Hope that makes sense!

7.) Confidence. (Six and seven really run together) A big part of CC to me is having the right expectations and demonstrating my expectations not through words, but through confident action. I try to assume the child is always good and has good intentions. Children were given adult parents for a reason. I try to be confident in my requests, and expectations and trust that he will be confident in my guidance.

Coming up with this list was an interesting exercise for me. Sometimes I wonder just how CC I am, but after doing this list, I think I'm more CC than I thought.

I don't want the above to seem like I'm perfect or like I'm supermom. These are the ideals I strive for. Sometimes they are hard. Sometimes I'm tired, sometimes I'm touched out, sometimes I have company coming and I just don't have time for DS to help with the cleaning, etc. This is where the big part of CC comes in to play, that I cannot fulfill. I can't replace the tribe (without completely changing my life). I don't have others to help me, there isn't another set of arms when mine are tired. DS doesn't have his own tribe of multi-aged children to play with and learn from everyday.

The lack of a tribe, the lack of support is the hardest part about parenting, especially AP/CC parenting. I'm on duty all the time. My children nap on me, I wear my 2 month old all day, and we all go to bed at the same time. There isn't any down time. I get "my time" during their nap. They are still with me, but I can usually knit or read or surf the internet. Right now I'm lying in bed typing this on my blackberry as my boys are sleeping. I make a point of trying to cherish these moments. My years of parenting young children is just a blip in time. This time will forever be precious in my mind and I will miss it when it's gone.


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## Limabean1975

awesome post knitlady! if i had a printer that would be going on my fridge!


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## webjefita

awesome posts!







lots of food for thought. i am getting so far away from my ideals.


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## EnviroBecca

Good list, KnitLady! I think you understand the concept very well.

Quote:

This is one area where the modern world comes crashing in. I don't expect DS to know that electrical outlets are dangerous, or playing in the street, or not riding in a carseat.
Actually, there are some modern things that children can learn about by observing adult behavior. Playing in the street, for instance: The first time my son walked on his own feet outdoors, he walked along the sidewalk until he reached a corner, then stopped and looked around--because that's what I always did when walking with him in the sling.







He has continued to be very trustworthy around traffic. And he never showed the slightest interest in putting anything other than a plug into an electrical outlet. The first time he picked up a plug, he very carefully took it by the plastic without touching the prongs. When we got a new coffee percolator (a type of machine he hadn't seen before) he observed as I figured out how to set it up and plugged it in. An hour later, he climbed up on a chair to wash his hands and noticed the percolator nearby, still plugged in; he asked, "Is it still hot?" We hadn't said a thing about it being hot, but he knew it had made coffee which is hot, and he saw that it was still plugged in...kids learn these things pretty easily.

We've been pondering whether we should have done differently with a non-continuum kid who was over at our house. He's four and a half, a little older than my son. I served them juice in plastic cups because I figured this kid isn't used to glass and might break it. Within one minute he spilled the juice all over the table. EnviroDaddy said this was because the cup was lightweight (easy to tip) and the kid had no cue to be careful with it. Maybe he would have been more careful with a glass. What do you all think?


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## geekmoma

New to this thread







I would like to share some of my short but fruitful experience with CC. Maybe this can be helpful for someone to get started









I learned about CC only a week ago, and has been starting to implement it out of curiosity. It's not foreign to me because it resembles the way I was brought up, but I want to incorporate some changes. In my culture, daily life is parent-centered, and children are given very little opportunity to express themselves. Adults don't often address to them directly: children's role is to be quiet, observe and listen. My own parenting style has never been overly child-centered, but I talk and listen to my children a lot. I love learning about their point of view and answering their never-ending questions. I am not ready to give up conversing with them because we all love it so much.

What I'm changing is to include them in what I do as much as possible. When my children made a request that's non-urgent, I don't drop what I'm doing and go to them automatically. I ask them to wait for me to finish, and they can help me if they want. In fact 95% of their requests are non-urgent (ask for food, water, a certain object/toy, etc), and they are rarely so hungry or thirsty that they can't wait for a few minutes. It has worked wonderfully and surprisingly well with DD1. I do the same for DD2 (almost 2), but she's more prone to lose patience and throw a fist, in which case I put her on the floor but don't give in until I finish my task. For her, the first meltdown is expected, but she normally understands by the 2nd time. Again, I was surprised how well it worked. I ask them for help with almost everything I do: when I cook, fold cloth, clean the floor, garden, etc. For non-family-related tasks like using the computer or reading, I try not to do it at all during their presence.

I think what I transmitted to them is that I was doing what's necessary for the family, and the responsibly to run a household in harmony is as much as my responsibility as theirs. Probably it's the novelty effect, but it has worked wonders so far: I'm more productive, they have less meltdown, we are all happier, and the house is cleaner.

But not all moments are the same. There are times they are just too busy to be interested in what I do. I havn't read the CC book and have no idea what the concept suggests for this, but I have no problem letting them just be children









Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
EnviroDaddy said this was because the cup was lightweight (easy to tip) and the kid had no cue to be careful with it. Maybe he would have been more careful with a glass. What do you all think?

I think he is right: a lightwieght cup is so much easier to tip over than a glass. My kids start using glasses or mugs since 14m I think, and they have rarely spilled anything with them. They occasionally use plastic cups and I almost always have to put the lid on because I know the lightweight cups are harder to manipulate.


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## Not Sure

sub/bump!


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## KBug

I went to a "Coyote Mentoring" workshop about helping ourselves and kids observe and be in nature. It seemed like such a natural extension of CC.


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## jrose_lee

Hello!

Just needing some responses from those with more than one child who try to CC. I was able to hold ds1 in a carrier (or lay down with him) for every single one of his naps growing up. It was really nice. However, ds1 is now 3.5 and does not nap at all, and hasn't for a while. We had ds2 in May and I've been holding him for his naps (which are still all.the.time.) so far. This has only been possible b/c he was so little at first that he could sleep through quite a bit...and then we decided to visit my parents for the summer and they have been entertaining ds1 quite a bit.

Even with the extra help, I still like to try to be around the area that ds1 is in while I have ds2 in the carrier so that I can be with ds1. I think that this is not going to work once we are home though. I very easily feel resentful toward ds1 for waking up ds2 all the time. I try not to make comments about him having to be quiet b/c I know it isn't fair for him to have to be quiet all the time.

I feel that my only choice is going to be laying ds2 down for at least some time in the afternoon to sleep. Then maybe I can have some one on one time with ds1 and ds2 can get some uninterrupted sleep.

I feel guilty about laying ds2 down for naps b/c ds1 got to be in arms. But I feel guilty about ds2 not getting much of my attention. And I don't like how inclined I am to resenting him and getting irritated.

Also, being SO responsible for having ds2 stay asleep is starting to stress me out.

I feel that this in arms thing was easier with ds1 obviously. I think a good goal would be to hold ds1 most of the time when awake and for his afternoon napping (especially when we are out), but then maybe lay him down in the afternoon sometimes?

Any thoughts? I'm tired of feeling guilty about practically everything and I guess I might have to cut myself some slack in order to parent two children and give them both what they need. Ds2 hasn't been getting much of my attention (but it hasn't bothered him with his grandparents around). At the end of Aug when we go back home all of this will change though...I'll be completely on my own again (except when dh comes home). I'm tired of feeling irritated with ds2...even when what he does is cute and fun.

Thanks everyone for letting me vent. I'd love to hear what you've done with your dc!


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## NoliMum

I don't have two kids so I can only offer speculative advice:

Some kids can sleep through anything, and I think that has a lot to do with the fact that the volume isn't turned down just because they are napping. Granted, you want to respect the child's need to sleep, and not blare the TV when they are napping (or when they're awake either, for that matter!







) but you also want them to be able to sleep through ordinary household sounds.

Although it may be difficult for the first couple of weeks, maybe you could try to get the little one to lay down to nap while the older one is playing, out loud? I know it's easier in the carrier, but if he could learn to sleep laying down with the noise, it would make it easier on you. Give your older DS something fun to do that he doesn't ordinarily play with, and don't tell him to be quiet or stay out of the room or anything. Just tell him you need to put baby to sleep, and you will play with him in a minute. Let him choose where he wants to play, on the floor near you or in the other room. Emphasize inside voices, respect for the sleeping baby, but not total quiet. Maybe the baby will just learn to sleep through it? Maybe some white noise would help too, to even out the noise level so there aren't many startling noises.

That's just an idea. Again, I have a singleton, so I don't know if it would work or not.


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## Periwinkle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jrose_lee* 
Hello!

Just needing some responses from those with more than one child who try to CC. I was able to hold ds1 in a carrier (or lay down with him) for every single one of his naps growing up. It was really nice. However, ds1 is now 3.5 and does not nap at all, and hasn't for a while. We had ds2 in May and I've been holding him for his naps (which are still all.the.time.) so far. This has only been possible b/c he was so little at first that he could sleep through quite a bit...and then we decided to visit my parents for the summer and they have been entertaining ds1 quite a bit.

Even with the extra help, I still like to try to be around the area that ds1 is in while I have ds2 in the carrier so that I can be with ds1. I think that this is not going to work once we are home though. I very easily feel resentful toward ds1 for waking up ds2 all the time. I try not to make comments about him having to be quiet b/c I know it isn't fair for him to have to be quiet all the time.

I feel that my only choice is going to be laying ds2 down for at least some time in the afternoon to sleep. Then maybe I can have some one on one time with ds1 and ds2 can get some uninterrupted sleep.

I feel guilty about laying ds2 down for naps b/c ds1 got to be in arms. But I feel guilty about ds2 not getting much of my attention. And I don't like how inclined I am to resenting him and getting irritated.

Also, being SO responsible for having ds2 stay asleep is starting to stress me out.

I feel that this in arms thing was easier with ds1 obviously. I think a good goal would be to hold ds1 most of the time when awake and for his afternoon napping (especially when we are out), but then maybe lay him down in the afternoon sometimes?

Any thoughts? I'm tired of feeling guilty about practically everything and I guess I might have to cut myself some slack in order to parent two children and give them both what they need. Ds2 hasn't been getting much of my attention (but it hasn't bothered him with his grandparents around). At the end of Aug when we go back home all of this will change though...I'll be completely on my own again (except when dh comes home). I'm tired of feeling irritated with ds2...even when what he does is cute and fun.

Thanks everyone for letting me vent. I'd love to hear what you've done with your dc!


Not sure that there is anything in CC that says you have to hold a child while they are sleeping. Or AP for that matter, though some would debate me on that point.

I think in fact that it is a SUPERB idea to teach an older baby to sleep happily in a cot or similar. I mean, ultimately we don't live in huts surrounded by twenty-seven of our closest aunts, sisters, and in-laws, so it's all on us (the mothers). Highly unnatural way to live, by the way. So you're going to have to teach a child to sleep on their own at some point. Taking it one step further, I would actually say that stopping what you (the grown-up) are doing several times a day to lie down in bed with your baby is NOT very CC at all. This is a really good example of a place where CC starts to differ big time from AP, because all the good AP mommies will tell you to bind yourself to your child and let the world fly around their heads (I know cuz I used to be one of them, lol







). But that is not what CC is all about. You're a grown-up, you have things you need to accompish in the day, and thus it makes perfect sense to teach our children to function in that world. For most of us that means they HAVE to learn to sleep on their own (on their own meaning on a little cot or blanket or whatever nearby, not meaning in the proverbial crib locked on the 3rd floor or something and again of course I'm not talking about a 2 month-old). I know that children can also be taught to sleep with world war III going on around them and think that's nice work if you can get it! And some babies do great taking cat naps here and there in the stroller, on your back, in the car. But a lot of babies seem to need a nap routine (dare I say schedule?) that offers a consistent time each day for napping, a consistent go-to-sleep routine, and a consistent napping spot in a quieter, dimmer part of the house. I don't recommend tip-toeing and whispering (I learned not to do that the hard way!) but no reason you couldn't take your non-napping kids into another area and engage them in whatever you're doing (folding laundry, cooking dinner, or let them play playdough or whatever while you read a book to relax. Again, if your kid sisters were available to lie down with the baby, lovely, but they're not and you have work to do, so you need to make your current living situation workable for everyone involved, the grown-ups especially.

Anyway, just some food for thought.


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## zansmama

hmmm...
I've always felt like the more kids the easier as far as CC parenting goes...
Now, to clarify, I only have one of my own, but I've been working as a nanny, and doing a lot of child-care for friends as well.
Ds grew up surrounded by older children for whom I was caring from the beginning.
I think that it really helps with the not-child centered part, because you can't exclusively focus very much on one child. And I really think that's better for them.
I wouldn't feel guilty about laying him down to sleep at ALL. My ds slept better that way, as many do.
As far as ds1 getting attention... let him tag along and "help" as much as he wants, that's the CC thing, right? Let him help with the baby's needs too: remember, nurturing is a very instinctual thing. Maybe he can "watch" his brother while you are in the same room doing housework, or make something (art, a little felt hat, a blanket, etc...) for him with you. Including him in your work, part of which is caring for the baby, is the most CC thing I can think of, and it's _wonderful_l for the sibling relationship. Of course the minute he doesn't want to, he is free to do something else, and will quickly learn to entertain himself.
Ds2 will benefit immensely from having an older sibling to imitate and aspire to, and have a mini-tribal experience with. Remember the little creepers and toddlers are free to follow the big kids around.
Really, I wish I had more than one.


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## KBug

It doesn't always happen, but it works best for us if my younger one naps on her own. It gives a chance to have some time along with the older child where we can do different things. Also the one-on-one time seems to help the older child adjust. Perhaps not cc advice, but it seems to work for us.


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## riomidwife

Mamas I need your help.

My son just turned 2 (only child), and our regular playmate is just barely 1. My son has never had aggression or hitting issues before, and maybe this is just part of becoming 2, and I guess I'll see quite soon just where this is going. This whole world of behavior requiring"discipline" (in the conventional parenting model) is all new to me. We tend toward a CC/unschooling parenting approach, and have never had cause to even consider "discipline" approaches before.

Now that my DS has more awareness of how kids are around him are interacting, he observes older children being physical and hitting, he was slapped in the face a few weeks ago--hard--and now he has begun to test the limits with his little friend with the occasional shove and swat.

****When do you intervene?*****

How do you respond?

The other child is still a baby. How do you comfort the hurt one and discipline/teach/redirect the other at the same time, when they're both crying and upset and need your attention equally?

Any on-the-spot- tips, strategies are much appreciated. Thank you!


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## widemouthedfrog

rio, trying to think of what to say to your question from a cc approach.
my dd doesn't hit other children, but she does have big problems having other children in "her" space - screams, pushes a little.

Since she was two, I've prepared her for visits and for playing outside with the other children by scripting some things. "What do we do if..." I think that this is an extension of modeling from adult behaviour. For example, in a community where no one hits, adults constantly model different sorts of ways of dealing with aggressive feelings. This is verbal modeling.

Also, can you give him another physical (perhaps constructive) outlet for feeling angry - maybe a physical job that they could have fun with together?


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## zansmama

Ah, this is where waldorf and CC overlap for me.
We always said: "gentle hands, gentle hands, hands are for helping", and then comfort the hurt one. Or "we touch our friends _gently_ "...
I have often seen that positive direction works a lot better than reprimands.
It is also important to distinguish for yourself the difference between hitting in anger and normal aggressive play. Ds has always been an exuberantly physical little fellow, and as such I have tried to allow him and his friends to play as roughly as _both_ feel comfortable with.
Obviously this is a baby..."babies need gentleness" would be maybe a good statement.
Also I think it is important that we don't react to dc as though they've done something _wrong_ : remember in his eyes it's perfectly reasonable, until he's shown a different way.


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## riomidwife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *widemouthedfrog* 
Since she was two, I've prepared her for visits and for playing outside with the other children by scripting some things. "What do we do if..." I think that this is an extension of modeling from adult behaviour.....Also, can you give him another physical (perhaps constructive) outlet for feeling angry - maybe a physical job that they could have fun with together?

Great suggestions, thanks!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama* 
We always said: "gentle hands, gentle hands, hands are for helping", .......
Obviously this is a baby..."babies need gentleness" would be maybe a good statement.
Also I think it is important that we don't react to dc as though they've done something _wrong_ : remember in his eyes it's perfectly reasonable, until he's shown a different way.

Thank you, excellent points!

We've tried the 'we don't do XYZ' approach and it has worked with other issues, but not this one so much.

We also adopted 2 big kittens recently and we are having the same issues there. He doesn't wail on them or anything like that, but he constantly wants to grab at them and is picking them up by their skin, tossing them, etc. And they don't run away, although they do sometimes scratch him. I'm like--kitties, COME ON, help me out here! just run away!

I posted about this on the discipline forum and one suggestion was to run defense, anticipating the pushes or swats, and intervene before they are completed. Obviously this is not going to happen, I mean, the kids are running all over the place doing their thing, investigating this and that, terrorizing the cats, etc. I am not on the floor playing with them hardly ever, although I am typically outside within sight and earshot when the one year old is over, otherwise LO has his run of the place pretty much.

I am having trouble with this because I feel like half of things I am "intervening" over might be better left alone if say, the one year old was a toddler.

I am not sure what LOs motivation is. Sometimes I suspect that it is because he is so huge for his age, and the one year old being so much smaller is an easy target, and LO just wants to see what happens if he pushes him. I should be clear, this has only happened on a few occasions, it's not like he's shoving him over all the time! It only started after another boy who we did not know, randomly came up and slapped my kid hard across the cheek.

And sometimes it is not about intentional pushing but a---get out of my way, here let me help you move out of my way--kind of maneuver.

Anyway, other CC thoughts are greatly appreciated. The last two times the boys have been together I have felt like I was on my toes, just waiting for something to erupt and it was NOT fun, and I do not want to settle into that pattern.


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riomidwife* 

And sometimes it is not about intentional pushing but a---get out of my way, here let me help you move out of my way--kind of maneuver.


Personally, I would let this one go, if the little one isn't getting actually hurt. Kids are like puppies, you know? Overprotecting the little ones often causes the olders to resent them, and makes the littles oversensitive. There is a lot to be said for letting them work out what they can...

As far as the cats__watch out for his eyes__ but beyond that, he will learn what is going too far... I've seen so many kids bond with their animals in this way. The cats will defend themselves, and your little one will quickly learn that they do, and eventually they'll settle into overall harmony. It's a good way to learn about the feelings of others, imo.


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## sweetpeppers

If no one is crying, I usually don't intervene. But I try to make my statements about altercations, pointing out that someone is sad. Encouraging his (innately social) self to recognize what effect his behavior has on someone else. It doesn't matter whose toy it is, grabbing it away from someone will upset them. I have to do this a lot with the older kids I babysit for, since they are a lot older than my son, and they have been raised in a might makes right home... But I tell them that he will give it back, but not if they are trying to grab it from him. When he does return the thing, they are always amazed, and say "How did you know he would give it back?"

I think believing that the children want to be social and get along is the first step. The second step is to be worthy of imitating in that respect. Meaning: don't grab things away from your kids, don't shout NO at them, generally (as much as is possible) don't do things to them that you don't want them doing to other kids. The kids I babysit for act with my son the way their mother acts with them, they yell, grab, and think he's going to get hurt all the time, lol.

The cat is on it's own though. If he's too rough with them, he'll get scratched. I say be gentle with the kitty. But we (the adults) are always shoving her off the tables, counters, away from scratching the couch, so he's getting mixed messages.


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## sweetpeppers

It's kind of annoying that we don't have our own forum. It's hard to follow out a conversation without seperate threads.

I was wondering if other people here do any TCC "missionary" work. Like with your child-centered AP friends. Has anyone lent out the book and had a good response? I have a friend who really needs to read it, but I think she may just poo-poo it and say her child is the exception to the rule, blah, blah, blah.

And I wanted to ask (delicately, as to not offend) if anyone was skeptical (in light of the continuum concept) about the huge number of "high-needs" children that seem to be popping up (particularly in AP-circles).


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## EnviroBecca

Most of my friends have been having children in their mid-to-late 30s, now that I already have a child, so I've been recommending the book for reading before baby arrives. In some cases I can see that it has influenced their parenting.









Yes, I am skeptical about the number of high-needs children, as well as the number of ADHD and autistic children. While I believe that high-needs temperament, ADHD, and autism all are real phenomena, I think the labels are being over-applied, to the detriment of children who are in fact pretty close to normal. Inflating a child's idiosyncrasies into a pathological syndrome does her no favors. I was a high-needs baby (my mother says I slept as little as 6 hours per 24 and no more than 1 hour at a time, nursed at least hourly, and for part of every day would not stop shrieking unless worn by a constantly moving mama) and my needs were met but in a very continuum way, with Mama putting me in a back carry and teaching me how we make stir-fry.







By age 2, I was quite calm, interested in learning the ways of my people, and able to entertain myself for long periods. For example, my parents built a piece of furniture out of corduroy and foam rubber, doing most of the work in one Saturday, and they tell me that each time fabric was being cut I came over to help smooth it, but I spent most of the time dipping my hairbrush in a glass of water and brushing my hair, over and over again, while watching them work.

My son was kind of the same. His first month was chaotic and difficult, and although he calmed down after that, he continued to nurse hourly and want to be held/worn most of the time--you know, just like TCC says--so I did that, but I also went on with many of my usual activities. People have been commenting on his calmness, lack of self-centeredness, and attention span since he was just a few months old, and he's still unusual in these ways compared to his peers at age 4. He continues to dislike being alone, and he is very demanding at times, but he is not at all like some of the "must be the center of Mommy's attention at all times" kids I read about. If I had responded to his neediness by dropping everything to focus on him, I suspect he'd be a lot more high-needs now. (But who knows?







)


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## riomidwife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpeppers* 
It's kind of annoying that we don't have our own forum. It's hard to follow out a conversation without seperate threads.

.

I so agree! Looking back through this thread there are so many unanswered issues....I think the idea had been proposed before but rejected. I think ALL the popular parenting philosophies should have their own forums, not just a thread. Unschooling and homeschooling have their own forums! This is one of the only places online where you can find these conversations happening. I hardly get over to this one because after a certain point it's just too hard to follow the thread. Imagine all that sharing that could happen in our own forum!


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpeppers* 
I was wondering if other people here do any TCC "missionary" work. Like with your child-centered AP friends. Has anyone lent out the book and had a good response?

Yes, i lend it out all the time, and often give it to new moms as a gift. (Along with my other two "bibles": "Nature's Children", and "You Are Your Child's First Teacher")

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpeppers* 
And I wanted to ask (delicately, as to not offend) if anyone was skeptical (in light of the continuum concept) about the huge number of "high-needs" children that seem to be popping up (particularly in AP-circles).

YES!!!!
It drives me INSANE!
My mom was actually really into labeling kids' "problems", and I am really, really sick of it. There is SO much of it here in Berkeley that I could scream.
Granted, a few kids clearly need a little extra_ whatever. but for the most part, it's so clear to me that they are just so far out of their continuum, and that's where any issues are originating. Poor human race.


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## Periwinkle

Re: "high needs children"... I think some of that is going to occur just due to genetic or environmental factors BUT... I do think TONS of the high needs thing is due to parenting styles. And later in life, it's due to the schools just failing completely to provide a natural environment for growing and learning.

Everyone always says how "well-behaved" my kids are and how they're so "nice to each other". Duh! (not that they don't have their moments... of course they do). But people assume the default for kids is bad behavior, not minding their parents, being contrary, and fighting with each other. Baloney. Not in my experience. In my experience, that is largely learned behavior. And it's learned EARLY.

I think the default for kids is actually following along and fitting into the larger group. When a child is not doing that, they are labelled "high needs" (or any number of other labels from ADHD to Asperger's) when it is really just their environment that is creating problems and/or their parents who unwittingly are outright teaching or just reinforcing some pretty bad behavior.

This reminds me of an abnormal psychology class I took once where we studied mental illness far back in history. In agrarian societies, mental illness was EXTREMELY rare. Why? No one had time to worry about this or get depressed about that... they had WORK to do!


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## Devaya

I've been reading 'Raising our children, raising ourselves' which I've heard about for ages mostly from MDC and finally got a copy of. I agree with a lot of it and it makes loads of sense to me in terms of communicating with one's child, thinking about what their needs are, and so on. But I feel very confused about CC stuff now because the author says things like (without specifically saying CC, I think she's referring to this idea when she speaks about parents wanting to follow tribal ways where the child hangs around adults and older kids and observes what they do, joining in as and when they want to): we have to work with the society and context we have NOW, not try to recreate the past; in the context of most families, unless you live in a community/commune etc, the child is not going to have its needs met by simply watching what you do and hanging around you (and occasional others); that the tasks the child needs to do while growing up are to do with developing intellect and so on, rather than practical tasks of household care and making things, so a lot of what you'd be 'teaching' would be irrelevant to his later life anyway; that the kind of work most of us do in the home is simply not conducive to 'joining in' in any meaningful way - the way we use machines, stand at the sink and wash up, etc; and that by repeatedly putting off a child's requests to play or have attention, you are giving the message that they are less important than housework (or crafts, or whatever). I mean, yes, we all have to get things done, but I'd hate DS to interpret that as meaning I don't care as much about him.

I have to say, (dare I say it?) I think she has a point, and I have been having a niggling feeling for a while that by not playing with DS much and not being 'child-centred', I really might be just causing him to feel insecure and not important to me. We go out most days and I surround him with certain key adult and child friends who he loves, but that cannot be our reality every day as people have their own lives to get on with, and I also need to clean my house







I do feel that he is much more confident, serene, and co-operative generally than most other kids his age I see (and I see a lot, in lots of different settings), which I put down to his upbringing thus far, but the seeds of doubt have been sown as to whether his psychological wellbeing is being met...I mean, yes, evolutionarily, children need to look to the adults to see what is 'done', but 'Raising our children, raising ourselves' talks a lot about looking at your child and seeing what they need, moment to moment, and what they're trying to communicate to you. Which really makes sense to me, too.

I've noticed since I've been playing with DS more (not all day or anything, just setting aside certain times, and following his cue more, rather than insisting on completing household tasks), our relationship 'feels' better, and is flowing more, and the tantrums have become shorter and less frequent. He is a very strong-willed, spirited child and struggles with transitions, so a lot of tantrums are unavoidable, so I'm just learning the tools to best support him through them.

Anyway, I hope it's ok to bring another book into this, no flames please! I just wanted to share my thoughts with others since none of my friends IRL are CC and are all pretty child-centred AP, and when I try to discuss philosophical stuff with them it never gets anywhere.

As for previous comments on the thread, I agree with what's been said about over-'diagnosis' of 'high needs'... I have fallen into this myself







. ANd I also think it'd be great to have a separate forum, I often can't find this thread for some reason if it's not been posted on for a while.


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## zansmama

Devaya;

I've struggled with this myself... and I think the key thing is to follow your instincts above all. If you feel like your ds needs you to play with him, by all means do so!
That said, I am a bit wary of this idea of constantly checking in with kids to see what their needs are. I have seen it followed to a ridiculous degree... not to say that you would do that, but still, as a mindset, it feels off. I really feel like kids communicate pretty well on their own when they need something, unless they are being constantly checked in with, in which case they begin to expect to be asked...

I guess I also disagree with the idea that kids need to develop intellectually rather than learning to do housework.
One thing that I have done is to de-machine my housework, so that ds does see and join in on meaningful tasks: we wash the dishes by hand, do some laundry by hand, garden, sew, bake, etc... I personally think these are _very_ valuable skills for his future, and since I believe in integrated learning, I think they will help other areas to function well.
I do think it is important to recognize that our society is not continuum-oriented. But that helps me to understand ds' difficulties with society, and inspires me to modify things as much as possible so as not to mess with his continuum, NOT to try to _adapt_ him to our screwed-up society. One compromise we are making is sending him to school, though I believe unschooling is more CC. The reason: I have been wearing myself out trying to fulfill his need for a consistent, daily "tribe" of kids. (I do feel this school is more CC than most)

One thing I would suggest is doing one focused activity (art, cooking, whatever) per day with your lo: That worked wonders for me with ds, as far as making him feel special and cared for.

Anyway, just my 2 cents


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## Periwinkle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaya* 
But I feel very confused about CC stuff now because the author says things like (without specifically saying CC, I think she's referring to this idea when she speaks about parents wanting to follow tribal ways where the child hangs around adults and older kids and observes what they do, joining in as and when they want to): we have to work with the society and context we have NOW, not try to recreate the past; in the context of most families, unless you live in a community/commune etc, the child is not going to have its needs met by simply watching what you do and hanging around you (and occasional others); that the tasks the child needs to do while growing up are to do with developing intellect and so on, rather than practical tasks of household care and making things, so a lot of what you'd be 'teaching' would be irrelevant to his later life anyway; that the kind of work most of us do in the home is simply not conducive to 'joining in' in any meaningful way - the way we use machines, stand at the sink and wash up, etc; and that by repeatedly putting off a child's requests to play or have attention, you are giving the message that they are less important than housework (or crafts, or whatever). I mean, yes, we all have to get things done, but I'd hate DS to interpret that as meaning I don't care as much about him.

Ooh great question. I've thought tons about it and what this author says, and ultimately I think the answer is "C - all of the above." Meaning, it would be an incredibly bad idea to try to recreate life in some primitive tribe in 340 A.D. here in America in 2009. BAD idea. I agree and have said before on this thread I think that you HAVE to take into account what it is you are trying to accomplish with parenting. I want my kids to go to college, to have flourishing careers whatever they may be, to be functioning and independent members of THIS society. So it would be incredibly stupid of me to pull my kids out of school (or stop homeschooling) and only focus on having my kids do the washing, the dishes, and scrub the floor. But here's where I disagree with the author... that is NOT ALL I DO! If all I and my husband did were scrub floors and do laundry, then yeah, having my kids follow us around all day doing this would not in any way support our hopes and goals for our children's futures. Sure we take care of our house and garden and do traditional activities (ranging from knitting to putting up jam to stacking wood), but here are other things we do:

* Work!
* Read the newspaper and talk about politics and international affairs
* READ READ READ all the time
* Socialize with family
* Socialize with friends
* Go out to eat at restaurants
* Cultural events (concerts, shows, etc.)
* Travel
* Participate in community-centered activities
* Charity work
* Balance our checkbooks & work on our budget
* Shopping
* Go to museums
* Learn and teach

I mean, I could go on. And while a lot of this thread is focused on having your kids help you with the cooking and cleaning, I would argue that it is equally important to have your kids help you (and accompany you, and talk about with you, and gain a deeper understanding of) all the OTHER stuff you do every day! Who only does dishes or tends the garden all week?!

But guess what... that IS what CC is all about! Or at least, that's how *I* interpret and do CC in our house. I think it would be silly to read Leidloff's book and think we all should insist our children spend all day helping us do chores around the campfire. Rather, I think the 30,000 foot view of the CC as applied in 2009 America relies on the following basic concepts:

1. Your world is the world your children should be living in. Your world in its entirety. (for example, yes your child should help take care of the house, but if you value reading and art, of course you should read to your child and take your child to a museum and/or make art with your child)
2. You are the parents/grown-ups so act like it. (for example, work gets done before play)
3. Learning and schooling (however you do it) is one of your child's major jobs and one of your main jobs is helping your child accomplish this huge effort - the amount of academic/intellectual knowledge an adult in America needs in order to function in society *at all* is tremendous actually.
4. Having good manners is CRITICAL in this (and most modern) societies in fact lots of social skills and the ability to navigate modern society all comes back to manners. So start teaching them early just like a mother in a primitive tribe starts teaching which plants are poisonous: i.e., because if the child doesn't learn that down pat, they're doomed.

ooh I could go on, but hubby needs help folding laundry...









edited to add, I forgot the most important thing:

5. Being outdoors in nature is not only a nice thing to do it is critical for a child's normal development. Today's modern families and schools - especially in America - do not spend nearly enough time in nature and the time they do spend outdoors is very structured (e.g., playing sports, playing on a conventional playground, even the way a lot of people take hikes in the woods must feel like a forced march for kids). Leidloff certainly discussed a child's relationship with nature but I think Richard Louv actually does a much better job of explaining why this is so important and how much it matters. His book on the subject is "Last Child In the Woods".


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## KBug

These are all very stimulating and thoughtful responses. I appreciate the time people put into their posts on this thread.

For me, in addition to the things I need to do (cook, clean, garden, laundry etc.), I want my children to be literate and enjoy reading (not a part of CC, but we spend lots of time reading books, and of course this will carry on to other learning such as numeracy), and to be outside and explore and enjoy nature (very CC in my mind, but has to be incorporated more specifically as we no longer do as much hunting and gathering and don't live as directly in the outdoors).


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## Devaya

Thank you so much everyone for your thoughtful and helpful replies. It's given me a lot to think about, and I feel relieved that really, I'm still on the right track. I'm the kind of person who can cling on to 'theories' and ideals a bit too much though, so I think a bit of balance with my own intuition is called for, as you pointed out, zansmama.

Periwinkle, a lot of the things you mention in your list, we do all the time, which made me feel loads better! Books, books, and more books definitely feature a lot, and reading is such a big part of my life, I can see DS is already picking that up and loves books. I try to expose him to a lot of free community events in our city (luckily, our city is great for that kind of thing), and older children, he loves seeing what they get up to. As it's summer now we're mainly just going to the park a lot, which in a way is a very child-centred place but he's getting a lot out of trying new things and improving his confidence with a balance, climbing etc. I try to provide a balance for his physical and intellectual skills.

It's good to be reminded that CC is something that we can apply in our urban lives - sometimes I feel bad for not being a 'bushcraft' kind of person







DS has been helping out in the garden (weeding, watering etc) and he loves it!


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## sweetpeppers

Even in the tribes she talked about, adults still sometimes played with children, and she says that they were nursed whenever they wanted it. Children weren't made to work ever. They helped when they wanted to, and played the rest of the time. I disagree that watching us take care of the house and do every day things is not go to stimulate intellectual development. Children copy our behavior in their play. I do play with him sometimes when he needs it (he is an only child), but I think my focus stays mostly on adult things. The hardest part about CC is not having more children around for him to play with. I'm a nanny, so that helps with him being an only child.


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## riomidwife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpeppers* 
And I wanted to ask (delicately, as to not offend) if anyone was skeptical (in light of the continuum concept) about the huge number of "high-needs" children that seem to be popping up (particularly in AP-circles).


Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama* 
YES!!!!
It drives me INSANE!
My mom was actually really into labeling kids' "problems", and I am really, really sick of it. There is SO much of it here in Berkeley that I could scream.
Granted, a few kids clearly need a little extra_ whatever. but for the most part, it's so clear to me that they are just so far out of their continuum, and that's where any issues are originating. Poor human race.










I hear you all, for sure, but I wanted to add that I do believe the whole world of childhood food allergies, asthma, ASD/ADD is exploding and I do think it is a very real deal. These issues are all connected. I've spent the last 12 months researching them, as my LO had severe eczema, GI and sleep issues. These epidemics are very real epidemics, and they are related to the increase in vaccines, heavy metal toxicity, weakened immune and digestive functioning, environmental toxicity, etc. So yeah, there is a lot of over "diagnosing" happening of ADD/behavior disorders on the part of well-intentioned but missing-the-boat parents and peds, but there is also a very real epidemic happening that includes a behavior component for kids with some of these issues.


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riomidwife* 
I hear you all, for sure, but I wanted to add that I do believe the whole world of childhood food allergies, asthma, ASD/ADD is exploding and I do think it is a very real deal. These issues are all connected. I've spent the last 12 months researching them, as my LO had severe eczema, GI and sleep issues. These epidemics are very real epidemics, and they are related to the increase in vaccines, heavy metal toxicity, weakened immune and digestive functioning, environmental toxicity, etc. So yeah, there is a lot of over "diagnosing" happening of ADD/behavior disorders on the part of well-intentioned but missing-the-boat parents and peds, but there is also a very real epidemic happening that includes a behavior component for kids with some of these issues.

Okay, i hear you... it's true, there is some reality to these things...
I guess it's the major over-diagonising around me that's driving me nuts...


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## momofmine

Well, I read CC when I was pregnant with my first, and it resonated with me so much, but the reality is that my life has been incredibly child-centered and I don't know how to put a lot of the CC philosophy into my real, everyday world. I don't live in a village, my kids don't have other kids to run around with outside of the hut, they don't have an opportunity to participate in our income-generating work, and my kids needs tons of attention. I mean, they just need me all day long. I think in the context of a community it would be different because they would be getting that interaction with a whole mix of people. But in our reality, we live in an isolated nuclear family. Yes, we do tons of things outside of the home, and we have lots of interactions with other people. But when it comes down to it, we live in a house, by ourselves, and don't share life with anyone else, not in the intimate and interdependent way that the indigenous cultures described in that book do.

So, how do you put it into practice now? My kids are 5 and 10, and they crave and need this. I find that I do too, I believe we are designed this way, to need to interact among our species and to have a true sense of meaningful work. But I'm just really struggling with making that reality in 2009 middle-class America.


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## Calm

I was going to start a thread but since I had a notification from this thread in my CP I thought it might be a good place to put my question.

My son has been brought up as close to biologically appropriate as possible for a suburban baby (who is now 16 months). And now likes to be down and exploring a lot. However, he also still likes to be held - a lot. The problem is, he treats me like a horse; if I stop moving, he kicks and whines a bit (on my back in the ergo usually, because I get sore if he is on one hip for too long). Which is inconvenient if I'm doing dishes or cooking or anything that requires me to stand still.

I've tried dancing on the spot, music and all kinds of things, but they don't last long, if at all. I believe it is based in the biological drive to learn, and in a natural setting I would be moving more, and he would be passed around more and see more, etc. But I can't simulate that, not to a natural extent even though he is passed around family I live with quite a bit (I live with my mother and two brothers and my husband and daughter).

I'm not sure what to do but my house is a mess because I get nothing done. He is too needy for me to get anything done. I basically have to sit and hold him or go out of the house and move about. Most house work does not require much moving, at least, not in a change of scene kind of way.

I think about natural cultures and although I too see flaws in the CC, I also think there are many valid points and he and I are both frustrated with the limitations of western life on fulfilling them.

Anyone dealt with this? What do you do with a disgruntled toddler who wants to be held (or is just beside himself with unhappiness) but wants you to run a marathon or is again, quite unhappy (although not as unhappy as he is when he wants to be held). I've ended up just getting on with my day, and he eventually adapts or wants to get down (and then whines because he is down). If I hold him on my hip, he is happiest, never needs me to move about. But I can't do that for more than ten minutes every hour or more. It's a very trapped kind of feeling. DH bought a new back carrier, one of those structured ones where they sit up high, we are hoping a better view will sort him out.

CC lead me to believe that they don't need a view, that they just want to be held. Well, that turned out to be a load of hogwash.

*OFF TOPIC*
By the way, there is basically only one new chronic disease faced by humanity and it encompasses all the modern issues from ADHD, autism right through to the increases in cancer and autoimmune disease and that is fungus. They are all fungal. This is because the antibiotics introduced earlier in the 1900's started to wipe out our necessary bacteria. Then doctors over prescribed antibiotics and now we have a plague of fungus in a large chunk of our population, including newborns who are often exposed to yeast in the hospital or given antibiotics themselves via breastmilk. This causes dysbiosis from birth, resulting in allergies and mental issues. No matter WHAT you do, if you don't correct the dysbiosis and the terrain of the body, it will remain, ie, "_chronic_ disease". The body has 10 times MORE bacteria cells than human cells. We are 90% bacteria and only 10% human. When you consider antibiotics from that standpoint, what exactly _are_ we killing when we use them? Bacteria is not to be underestimated, and if you have more fungus than bacteria, or your child does, you will pay a heavy price. My page, still unfinished, for more info.

ETA - before someone brings it up, I'll preempt it, antibiotics are not the _only_ reason for dysbiosis. It is the biggest one, however. Some homebirthed babies who are breastfed also have allergies although there are very few of them in comparison to c-section and hospital birthed allergy babies. This is due to the mother's terrain, which was compromised during the pregnancy and birth. Yeast is also found in breastmilk. So if you choose to correct the imbalance, you need to correct yourself also if you breastfeed.


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## D'sMama

*Calm*, have you tried a Scootababy carrier? It's a hip carrier with a padded buckle waist and a fleece shoulder that I've found really spreads the weight well so I can carry DS on my hip for a long time - much longer than when he's in a RS. I love it and find myself reaching for it more than any of my other carriers, unless he needs a nap.


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## Calm

Thanks D's Mama. I just googled them and I had no idea such a thing existed. It looks comfy. Can't get them here (Australia - tried the links, ebay, etc) and although I could get one sent from overseas, we just spent any carrier budget on this new back thingy from the UK. I might try to make something with a wrap. I'll youtube hip wraps or something.

I guess there are no other creative ideas on this. I was wondering if I had overlooked something in how to deal with stone age babies in a modern lifestyle. I was meant to be out on my farm by now, but our plans were changed (we didn't want them to be, long story). So now I'm still stuck out here in suburbia. I'm making the best of it, but I wonder how we are supposed to do right by our children in these circumstances. How are other parents arranging things to fit their children's "stone age" needs?

See, I could only ask that on MDC, perhaps even only on this thread, and have any hope of being understood what I'm trying to achieve.


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## jennchsm

Calm, my reading of CC is that the "in-arms" period lasts until the baby starts crawling. After that, the baby spends a lot of time on his own exploring and learning to become part of the family/community. I have a 16mo son as well (and also live in an isolated suburban home), and I rarely wear him in the house any more. He will go through phases during which he needs to be held and cuddled and interacted with more than other times, and they usually turn out to be related to teething or something similar.

CC leans more toward a "get on with your life and let your child learn how to be part of it" philosophy, which is very different from the AP/UP approach where you invest heavily in giving your child lots of attention in the first few years. I'm personally trying to balance the two, and so far it seems like it's working for us. When my son tells me he really needs my attention, I stop what I'm doing and play with him, or cuddle him, or nurse him, whatever he seems to need. But I'll also occasionally distract him with a toy or a game or a song while trying to get something done, or will slow down the pace of the task and let him "help". It might be that I have a pretty easygoing kid, but it's working out so far.

One of the best purchases we made recently was a Learning Tower. It's basically a tower thing that brings toddlers to countertop height, and when I'm doing things in the kitchen, that's where DS wants to be. (He runs to it and says "up!" when I start working in the kitchen.) I can then give him a wooden spoon and a bowl, or a piece of something I'm cutting up so that he can "help". I move it to the sink when I'm washing dishes so he can splash in the water. He watches from a safe distance (often with a snack) while I'm cooking at the stove. The great thing about the tower is that it has given him a way to be involved in kitchen activities.

Similarly, I do as many household chores as I can on the floor where he can help, and help he does -- in his own way. He sorts and "folds" laundry, sweeps the kitchen floor, and so on. I stopped wearing him around the house when it became clear that just observing household activities was no longer enough for him. He wants to be included now, and for me THAT is at the heart of CC. When he gets bored of helping, he toddles off and finds something else to do. Sometimes his "help" sets me back a few minutes, but it's okay, because one day (I hope, LOL) it will actually be helpful!

I don't know if any of this is helpful to you, but I honestly can't imagine wearing my DS while trying to do housework! He wouldn't be happy, and neither would I. And I honestly don't think either CC or AP would say that's the best way to go at this age.


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## D'sMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jennchsm* 
CC leans more toward a "get on with your life and let your child learn how to be part of it" philosophy, which is very different from the AP/UP approach where you invest heavily in giving your child lots of attention in the first few years.

What is UP?

What does everyone else think about how AP and CC are related/contrasting? I never really considered them that different. I always thought of AP as simply meeting the child's needs, which in the beginning requires a lot of attention, but so does CC with the whole in-arms phase. I don't know.


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## KBug

My DD sounds similar. I let her sit on the counter while I cook or put her in the kitchen sink. I have to be really close to keep her safe but she likes to be more of a part of things and nibble on food or play with measuring spoons etc.


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## jennchsm

Sorry! UP is Unconditional Parenting. There is a thread around here somewhere focused on it.


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## jennchsm

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D'sMama* 
What does everyone else think about how AP and CC are related/contrasting? I never really considered them that different. I always thought of AP as simply meeting the child's needs, which in the beginning requires a lot of attention, but so does CC with the whole in-arms phase. I don't know.

I think I see them as different because that's how CC was presented to me - as an alternative to AP. In my local API group, some moms with toddlers and new babies were lamenting that they felt they weren't doing as good a job being AP with their little ones as they had with the older ones, and a few members told us about CC and how it offers a different perspective. I borrowed the book and read most of it, and the impression I had was that it's about incorporating your child into the continuum of your family's (or community's) life. The book goes into a lot of detail about how infants spend the first year or so of their lives observing, and then when they become mobile, gradually become involved in the work of the household (or community). There is almost a sense in which adults don't change their lives when they have children (the people described in the book don't have that luxury) and as a result the children are much more well-adjusted than the typical western child whose parents' world revolves around him.

Some of the parents in my API group talked about how they just wore their babies while they played with they older children, and that those children, despite not getting as much one-on-one attention as their older siblings, seemed to be generally happier and more easygoing.

I found that working some CC ideas into my parenting philosophy helped me relax and get more of the things I need done, without feeling like I was neglecting my son. As with all parenting philosophies, in the end you have to make choices that work best for your family. Unless you live on a commune or in an extended family situation, it would be really hard to be truly CC, IMO.


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## Calm

Hi Jenn. That's what I expected also. However, my son walked at 9 months (which is apparently the expected age for constantly held babies) and his mobility didn't cramp his need to be held and still doesn't. He is a contradiction because he has been a frustrated unit since birth - held his head up at a week old and ever since has been the most determined person I've ever known. He has been SO frustrated! He wants to do do do, to be able to do it all and whines and cries a lot. The flip side is he is also a joyful person, intense, but joyful, just very easy to upset. Although he can hit the concrete head first and not bat an eyelid, he is upset by emotional things, frustrations, not pain. I have a daughter and many nieces, nephews, etc, I've seen how determination usually works and all babies are determined - but nothing like _this_.

YET, you'd think that would mean he would love being beside me at the kitchen bench, and for the first five, even ten minutes he does. Then he just wants to be held. He is a very affectionate person, and just puts his arms up for anyone and everyone even visitors (esp men). I'm lucky that I have brothers who live here and someone is always holding him, carrying him around the yard with one hand with a shovel or hose in the other. Put him down and it's pot luck - will he screech and puts his arms up straight away to be picked back up again or will he play.

For longer and longer periods he is happy to wander the yard or house, like for instance right now he is squatting on the dining table inspecting the salt shaker, aaaaand, he just threw it to the ground, testing gravity again I guess. It isn't _constant_ constant like it was only 4 or so months ago. But I still find that I'm rushing everything between holds, and there is no way either my DH or I can do dinner solo. One of us has to be with DS or he is just wanders around whining, occasionally crying and that just triggers my guilt and need to stop everything and hold him. When involved in dinner prep he gets frustrated (again). He can't manipulate the things yet and knows he has been given the short end of the deal with his butter knife and soft veggies. I do give him many opportunities, they just don't last very long.

I find small jobs impossible. My daughter was easy peasy, I could even do bead work if I wanted when she was a toddler and she was methodical and compliant, it's just the way she was/is. Not with DS. If it's up, he reefs it down, if it is closed, he opens it (our oven is broken, we need to buy a new one). I can't do much of anything yet, maybe when he's a bit older. At this stage, it's just a joke and sometimes I play the game but sometimes, hey, I actually need to get that washing put away and it's strewn from one end of the house to the other. We have perspex on the tv so he doesn't smash it, we have a zen home because he just isn't like my daughter was. I find that I've become like other parents now, having to take certain things from him because he likes to throw them, or rip them apart. I've tried and tried to not intervene but it's actually dangerous not to, not to mention people have their belongings ruined.

Ok. There now. Glad I got that out. It hasn't been so easy with DS as it was with DD. I am enjoying the affection, that's the positive aspect of his physical needs. And like you, I couldn't have imagined still carrying him so much by this age, esp as he is heavy for his age. Yay me.


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## riomidwife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm* 
However, my son walked at 9 months (which is apparently the expected age for constantly held babies)

Curious where you're getting this from? My understanding was that even among traditional hunter-gatherer cultures there is still much variation in the timing of crawling, walking, etc., with a strong genetic component.

My son was in-arms most of babyhood, with very occasionally hanging out on the floor. He did not begin crawling until 8 or 9 months, and began walking at 15 months, which is when his papa began walking. In my own personal experience I see a trend in larger babies walking later.

In related news, anyone see the piece on crawling in last month's Scientific American?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...be-unnecessary


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## widemouthedfrog

My dd was also a very up, down, needing to be held, needing to feel like we were doing something sort of baby. I bounced her on my back a lot. We went out for walks a lot. I also did a lot of active housework with her on my back until she was 35 lbs or so (though continued to wear her until 45 lbs on my back, now I sometimes do back or hip carries in a sling if required). She wanted to be in and see the action, so I think a view was great.

We loved our Ergo and Patapum toddler.

I am 5'9 and I have strong arms, though. I also go to the chiropractor a lot.


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## Calm

Quote:

Curious where you're getting this from? My understanding was that even among traditional hunter-gatherer cultures there is still much variation in the timing of crawling, walking, etc., with a strong genetic component
Magical Child by Joseph Chilton Pierce

The Vital Touch by Sharon Heller

Both books are, in my opinion, the two most important child/parent works in all the current available media.

Magical Child is more of a classic, as it was written in the 70's or 80's I believe, but has extensive cross cultural studies and does not attempt to glamorise any of them but gives them warts and all. The studies showed babies from the same culture will walk early or "late" (eg, western expectations of around 13 months) depending on how they are treated. Not only does it affect walking, but all milestones. There are many theories as to why, such as it taking much more muscle strength to hold on than it does to flop around on the floor - the place most western babies find themselves most of the time. My favorite theory being that the pressure is off emotionally so they can focus on development - which is the premise of Magical Child really. Taking the pressure off our children and trusting their intrinsic drive to learn. It is a very text-book type of read, not an easy one by any stretch but very worth it.

The Vital Touch goes further than the CC, it does more cultures and looks at the wide variety of long term effects. I loved this book. She explores, via science and logic AND the more subjective methods, developmental issues and long range emotional impacts.

CC is like an introduction to anthropology and parenting. These go a lot further.

My son was born almost 9lbs, was 20lbs by 6 months and slowed down from then on. He is very strong, as was my daughter. I think if "larger" means "fatter", perhaps they would walk a bit later. In those where larger means stronger - larger bones and muscles - then it wouldn't necessarily result in later physical things.

I think there is much more to it than in-arms. Hence why it is important to me to look further than mainstream AP stuff like CC (although it was the most important read I ever did, as it was my first and it really shook me up!). How important is it for the baby to crawl his own way to the breast? How important is it to stay constantly connected to actual living skin tissue (which is a major difference between our in-arms culture and the in-arms of amazonian and african cultures), how important are the many many differences we have from the infant stage of the most basically natural cultures? Dunno. But I want to. And the more I learn, the more I see that we have only scratched the surface of things.

I have found some African cultures have amazing babies and children (and adults!). Very VERY quick to reach milestones and peaceful people. One culture stops this nurturing at the age of four when the child is ripped from his mother and thrust into society (never allowed to talk to mom again, and she has to turn her back on him and ignore him) and the child's development retards completely, it just stops and some kids actually die. So, from an amazing, forward, peaceful start they completely F^$^% it up!









Anyway, some great reads out there, I found some common threads and find it works with my own kids. And occasionally, there's no commonality and I find myself holding them until they reach high school graduation. Sigh.









Joke.


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## riomidwife

Cool. I have read Magical Child, but it has been a long time. I'll look for the other one too.

In comparing baby-wearing cultures I think it would be nearly impossible to establish norms re: age at onset of walking because on account of all the variables you would have to tease out. You'd have to compare enough hunter-gatherer and other baby-wearing cultures to be able to tease out confounding factors like disease, diet, weight, structure of childcare, time spent in arms, etc. Baby-wearing aside, it makes sense that babies in indigenous and/or hunter-gatherer groups in Africa would walk towards the early end of the spectrum because their birthweight on average is so much lower than white western babies, and their lifestyle is far more active and mobile than ours. I'll ask my husband what he has observed in the baby-wearing H/G groups he has worked in.


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## milkybean

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riomidwife* 
I hear you all, for sure, but I wanted to add that I do believe the whole world of childhood food allergies, asthma, ASD/ADD is exploding and I do think it is a very real deal. These issues are all connected. I've spent the last 12 months researching them, as my LO had severe eczema, GI and sleep issues. These epidemics are very real epidemics, and they are related to the increase in vaccines, heavy metal toxicity, weakened immune and digestive functioning, environmental toxicity, etc. So yeah, there is a lot of over "diagnosing" happening of ADD/behavior disorders on the part of well-intentioned but missing-the-boat parents and peds, but there is also a very real epidemic happening that includes a behavior component for kids with some of these issues.

And the thing that affects my son.....anything with corn syrup in it. HFCS, normal corn syrup, even corn syrup solids.

My friend has a friend with 3 girls, and all of them have to eat a gluten free and corn free diet, b/c it causes symptoms of ADHD...my guy can have corn and home-made popcorn, and even cornstarch, but NOT when corn is turned into syrup. He has symptoms of ADHD and even autism when he eats things like that, and they are in SO MANY THINGS that you have to read every single ingredient, EVERY SINGLE TIME you eat something. Kit Kats were safe. Then I read a Kit Kat label and suddenly it had corn syrup solids in it! Not safe anymore!

*Calm*...while reading your posts, I had a flash of you putting posters and pictures all over your walls, both at his walking eye level and also at his eye level when he's on your back in the carrier. Like...maybe he wants to be held AND have some interesting views...DS didn't mind standing at the sink on my back b/c we had a big window with a gorgeous blossoming tree right there. But if I turned around to the stove, it was over, there was no view for him. That's not advice, just something that popped into my head as I read.

I never babyproofed, but I DS-proofed. I wasn't going to play games with the things he was interested in that I couldn't deal with him being into. The CC people might have trusted their kids' vision to not go over the edge into the ravine, but my kid fell off the bed while awake and tried to fall off other things, so he wasn't THOSE kids.

DS wanted to be with me more than, say, my friends' kids wanted to be with them...I just did it to the best of my ability. When he was still napping, I would do the work I could while he was asleep.

He wasn't a "useful member" of the society of our house until he was around 4...until then he, as you described yours, wanted to open what was closed, close what was opened, and he HATES that he still isn't allowed to use proper knives (he's 5).

I wasn't able to be exactly how I wanted to be, just like I wasn't really able to do EC, but he's turning out to be pretty cool (just like he initiated potty learning at 18 months and the EC stuff I'd read about helped me tremendously) anyway.

From knowledge of self and my brother, I know very well how one kid can be so different from the other! I never napped, for instance, and followed my mom around the house saying "mama, mama, mama, mama" until she was tearing out her hair...my younger brother, however, was perfect in her eyes (and to the eyes of the world) until he was in college and moved in with his girlfriend much to my mom's chagrin.


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## Calm

Quote:

Calm...while reading your posts, I had a flash of you putting posters and pictures all over your walls, both at his walking eye level and also at his eye level when he's on your back in the carrier. Like...maybe he wants to be held AND have some interesting views...DS didn't mind standing at the sink on my back b/c we had a big window with a gorgeous blossoming tree right there. But if I turned around to the stove, it was over, there was no view for him. That's not advice, just something that popped into my head as I read.
Great idea! The kitchen is kind of covered from a-hole to z but we'll have a look, we should be able to do something. Yesterday while doing dishes he was peeping slightly backwards and under to the TV DD was watching. He was happy, so it really is how much he has to see.

Regarding corn syrup, does he have reactions to any other sugar based product, or just the corn? Corn and peanuts have an abnormally high percentage of aflatoxins and fungal growth. if you google it on corn and peanuts, you'll be shocked at just what is in them. NEVER EVER eat peanut butter (shudder). Science is looking at the fungus in them. I have a list here of the fungus found in both, hold on...

acremonium siricium
aspergillus (4 types)
penicilliums (3 types)
trichoderma harzianum
chaetomium (3 types)

And more, about 25 of them. It is like taking an antibiotic every time you eat corn or peanuts. It just messes up your microorganisms in the gut and elsewhere.

I'm successfully treating allergies and behavioural problems as are many other healers by treating it as fungus. People are not meant to avoid foods like that, it isn't a "genetic" thing, it is a gut problem, and is treatable. If corn itself doesn't cause issues, it could be how the corn is manufactured into corn syrup, or it could just be that it is sugar. They have done studies where they have tested the gut flora of people and given some people sugar and had a control group. the people given sugar had a massive growth of yeast in their gut lining, with absolutely no other change to their diet.

Sugar is the modern killer. Fungus is the modern chronic disease. Both go together perfectly. Dairy is also a MASSIVE problem for gut flora. Humans, all mammals actually, should not eat dairy after the age of about four as we stop producing lactase, the enzyme to break it down. We certainly were never meant to ingest the milk of another species. Besides being laden with pathogens and fungus, it wreaks havok in our guts and most kids with allergies will first and foremost get it to dairy. Dairy will also trigger behavioural issues, like sugar will. It all revolves around fungus and the toxins/chems they produce.

Anyway, I can't walk past these things and not say anything, not when kids are involved.


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## spottiew

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpeppers* 
Even in the tribes she talked about, adults still sometimes played with children, and she says that they were nursed whenever they wanted it. Children weren't made to work ever. They helped when they wanted to, and played the rest of the time. I disagree that watching us take care of the house and do every day things is not go to stimulate intellectual development. Children copy our behavior in their play. I do play with him sometimes when he needs it (he is an only child), but I think my focus stays mostly on adult things. The hardest part about CC is not having more children around for him to play with. I'm a nanny, so that helps with him being an only child.

Can I pop in and ask something? I could not fill my day with 'taking care of the house' even if I wanted to... do other people really spend their days doing chores and projects and 'adult things', etc, day after day? (not sure what the adult things would be? i guess i am not used to following my interests for hours a day like that- my pre-kid life was a fulltime job, not home all day, so there isn't a way to just 'continue my regular life with kid in tow'







I only have one kid (age 4) and I think that is different than if you have a bunch... I'm asking becuase it's always been by CC question- what do you 'do' all day... it just feels like there's only so much puttering around that one can do- and that both I and child would go bonkers just being around home like that.


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## riomidwife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riomidwife* 
I so agree! Looking back through this thread there are so many unanswered issues....I think the idea had been proposed before but rejected. I think ALL the popular parenting philosophies should have their own forums, not just a thread. Unschooling and homeschooling have their own forums! This is one of the only places online where you can find these conversations happening. I hardly get over to this one because after a certain point it's just too hard to follow the thread. Imagine all that sharing that could happen in our own forum!

I am writing to a mod to ask about having a separate forum. Has anybody else done this? Maybe if enough people request we can get something happening!


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## Calm

Spottiew, I hear you. There is way too much difference between our lives and those of natural cultures. I have a page on my site developing about this, although like most of my life, it is still unfinished (procrastination, anyone?). Parenting, Unplugged

I personally take the angle that you have to change things up for the first few years of the child's life if you want to try to be biologically appropriate with child raising. We simply can't keep things the same AND be biologically appropriate if for no other reason than our modern western lives are so far from natural as to be hilarious.

"Getting into nature" is going to the park, beach or the backyard for most, it certainly isn't thrashing through a jungle or hiking a mountain or picking berries from a cactus in the desert. We don't teach how to build a ground nest out of leaves or a shelter out of bark, we teach how to operate a remote control. The fact that we have a term like "getting into nature" pretty much sums it up.

So we have to make a choice. Keep things the same and struggle with "what to do" all day, or change things up, shake things around and go feral for a while. We learn as much as they do when we do that, but it isn't for everyone. I don't do housework because I can't. I have a fierce jungle baby, who lets me know what he wants and how he wants it and he is demanding natural and I am adapting. Kicking and screaming about it sometimes, yes, but adapting.

What would you do all day if you didn't have a job but _also_ didn't have a child? Aside from "go stir crazy". There's no such thing as boring situations, only boring thoughts. Imagine you are financially independent and finally free of work constraints... what would you do? I'd still do my job occasionally (and I do it for free at the moment, actually), so I just take my son. I also like sitting around, sloth like. It's not everyone's cup of tea but I love it, and my son adapted to that (we have had to adapt to each other's quirks, as ya do).

Usually though, it's not easy. Suburban life is designed to take us away from our homes, into work and then back to cook and sleep. Weekends are also about getting away from our homes, into some activity, and then back to cook and sleep. We don't really "live" in our homes, there's not much to learn in them for the very small. My son goes stir crazy if we're not outside, he starts getting destructive because he isn't growing and learning. I still haven't figured out how to do it in a house, esp as I am not one of those people who can do the homemade play dough thing and water play and whatnot without wanting to rip my own face off. It's just NOT my thing. I don't do "child play". And there are many like me, many more than they like to admit because it's just not the "done thing" to admit you hate playing child games when you have children.









Luckily for me, I am drawn to the parenting philosophies that _don't_ encourage child play and structuring my life around them, but them fitting in with me. I believe child games are for children, my time for them has passed, thank Lerds, and my parents never played with me (they were old folk when I was born) and I benefited from that and wouldn't change it. So I have to create a life for them to fit into. Something that benefits us all. Not easy. Other children were meant to be in a child's life. I see this in all other cultures - except ours, as usual. Unstructured play with different ages, unfettered with adult presence. They only play with us cos we're the only ones there. I find as soon as there are other kids around, I become invisible to my kids. And it is MAGICAL. They don't want to play with me, they don't even need me to "Watch this" and "look at me mom". Their neediness just disappears. It suddenly feels... natural.

I wish I had an answer, but I don't. I resent our culture, can you tell? We've isolated the family, esp the mother and children, from the rest of the world, from our communities.

If anyone has any ideas, I'd be open to them. Let's start a commune, a good one, on a river bank, with tire swings and nightly campfires. Woot.


----------



## D'sMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm* 
If anyone has any ideas, I'd be open to them. Let's start a commune, a good one, on a river bank, with tire swings and nightly campfires. Woot.

I've so been wishing for a commune lately! I moved from the city to the suburbs last fall while pregnant. The isolation is overpowering sometimes. Being in a house, alone, with a baby and no one else just feels so unnatural. But it's what I do. (Of course we get out every day, but driving in a car to go shopping among strangers with little interaction... not much better.)

I need a village. I think every mom and baby does.


----------



## Calm

Quote:

I need a village. I think every mom and baby does.
Me too.


----------



## EnviroBecca

EnviroKid and I have gained a lot from commuting on public transit. We are out in the world, even if it is the urbanized world rather than "nature"; we are among other people of many types, interacting with some of them; he is learning many things about adult life; it's a shared experience that connects us; and he's integrated into what I did before he was born, in that I still have the same job, to which I've always commuted by bus, and commuting together makes him part of my workday even though he doesn't actually come to my workplace (usually). I think it's a lot more continuum than traveling by car, anyway.









As far as having a village, I've probably mentioned this in the thread already, but we have a wonderful "village" at our church. Although Christians are a minority in our neighborhood, the church is near our house and our neighborhood business district, and probably 2/3 of church members live within two miles of the church, so the building certainly feels like part of our community. We share that building with a mostly-stable group of about 100 people of all ages who get together for various projects and social events as well as worship. Twice a month, we have a potluck dinner for which we all pitch in to set up tables, chairs, and dishes from OUR building and then clean them and put them away. There's a really strong, pleasant sense of community around owning and using the space and its furnishings together.


----------



## Periwinkle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spottiew* 
Can I pop in and ask something? I could not fill my day with 'taking care of the house' even if I wanted to... do other people really spend their days doing chores and projects and 'adult things', etc, day after day?

ITA. This was the point I made in my last post about how cleaning house all day and doing laundry is NOT what MY children need to be doing all day to develop into the adults that need to function in our society. I do a whole lot more than that, and involve them (or try to) in almost every facet of my modern, cultured, intellectual life. (not saying I'm some cultural diva, lol, just compared to doing nothing but tending house and doing traditional activities all day, the modern life of the typical American much less someone who values reading, art, etc. is WAY more varied)


----------



## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm* 

CC lead me to believe that they don't need a view, that they just want to be held. Well, that turned out to be a load of hogwash.


I guess I never got that... just the opposite. It seemed like the babies were having constantly changing views, what with going into the river, fetching water several times a day, bouncing on mom's back while she danced, etc...
Also there were a lot of interesting other people about, and a whole jungle to look at...
Anyway, I think that by 16 months, the toddlers were mostly following the big kids around, no? maybe he just needs some more kids to hang out with.

Btw, I didn't see you mention it, so I don't know for sure: are you still nursing? Maybe if some of your holding time went to nursing, he would be content for longer periods... just an idea...
With ds, I definitely felt like he was happiest when around other kids.


----------



## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riomidwife* 
Curious where you're getting this from? My understanding was that even among traditional hunter-gatherer cultures there is still much variation in the timing of crawling, walking, etc., with a strong genetic component.

My son was in-arms most of babyhood, with very occasionally hanging out on the floor. He did not begin crawling until 8 or 9 months, and began walking at 15 months, which is when his papa began walking. In my own personal experience I see a trend in larger babies walking later.


I guess I was under the impression that CC babies walked earlier in general as well...
Ds also walked at 9 mos...
Maybe it's a muscle tone thing?


----------



## major_mama11

Hi everyone! What an awesome thread! Just stumbled on this and have been going back and reading the old posts the past couple days. I read the book a month or two ago (first book I read while DS was a newborn actually), and it gave me a lot to think about. I will be posting more soon...


----------



## jrose_lee

Hey! I'm looking for everyone's thoughts on babies (ds is 5 months) and small pieces/toys. What is everyone's experience with this? Ds1 is 3.5 so we have some smaller toys around now.

Is anyone really concerned with baby choking on a small object? There must be some reason for concern or else people wouldn't worry about it?

Can I hear thoughts on the safety of letting babies have smaller toys etc?

TIA!


----------



## Abraisme

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm* 
Spottiew, I hear you. There is way too much difference between our lives and those of natural cultures. I have a page on my site developing about this, although like most of my life, it is still unfinished (procrastination, anyone?). Parenting, Unplugged

I personally take the angle that you have to change things up for the first few years of the child's life if you want to try to be biologically appropriate with child raising. We simply can't keep things the same AND be biologically appropriate if for no other reason than our modern western lives are so far from natural as to be hilarious.

"Getting into nature" is going to the park, beach or the backyard for most, it certainly isn't thrashing through a jungle or hiking a mountain or picking berries from a cactus in the desert. We don't teach how to build a ground nest out of leaves or a shelter out of bark, we teach how to operate a remote control. The fact that we have a term like "getting into nature" pretty much sums it up.

So we have to make a choice. Keep things the same and struggle with "what to do" all day, or change things up, shake things around and go feral for a while. We learn as much as they do when we do that, but it isn't for everyone. I don't do housework because I can't. I have a fierce jungle baby, who lets me know what he wants and how he wants it and he is demanding natural and I am adapting. Kicking and screaming about it sometimes, yes, but adapting.

What would you do all day if you didn't have a job but _also_ didn't have a child? Aside from "go stir crazy". There's no such thing as boring situations, only boring thoughts. Imagine you are financially independent and finally free of work constraints... what would you do? I'd still do my job occasionally (and I do it for free at the moment, actually), so I just take my son. I also like sitting around, sloth like. It's not everyone's cup of tea but I love it, and my son adapted to that (we have had to adapt to each other's quirks, as ya do).

Usually though, it's not easy. Suburban life is designed to take us away from our homes, into work and then back to cook and sleep. Weekends are also about getting away from our homes, into some activity, and then back to cook and sleep. We don't really "live" in our homes, there's not much to learn in them for the very small. My son goes stir crazy if we're not outside, he starts getting destructive because he isn't growing and learning. I still haven't figured out how to do it in a house, esp as I am not one of those people who can do the homemade play dough thing and water play and whatnot without wanting to rip my own face off. It's just NOT my thing. I don't do "child play". And there are many like me, many more than they like to admit because it's just not the "done thing" to admit you hate playing child games when you have children.









Luckily for me, I am drawn to the parenting philosophies that _don't_ encourage child play and structuring my life around them, but them fitting in with me. I believe child games are for children, my time for them has passed, thank Lerds, and my parents never played with me (they were old folk when I was born) and I benefited from that and wouldn't change it. So I have to create a life for them to fit into. Something that benefits us all. Not easy. Other children were meant to be in a child's life. I see this in all other cultures - except ours, as usual. Unstructured play with different ages, unfettered with adult presence. They only play with us cos we're the only ones there. I find as soon as there are other kids around, I become invisible to my kids. And it is MAGICAL. They don't want to play with me, they don't even need me to "Watch this" and "look at me mom". Their neediness just disappears. It suddenly feels... natural.

I wish I had an answer, but I don't. I resent our culture, can you tell? We've isolated the family, esp the mother and children, from the rest of the world, from our communities.

If anyone has any ideas, I'd be open to them. Let's start a commune, a good one, on a river bank, with tire swings and nightly campfires. Woot.

I'm in! Where should be build our commune?


----------



## Abraisme

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zansmama* 
I guess I was under the impression that CC babies walked earlier in general as well...
Ds also walked at 9 mos...
Maybe it's a muscle tone thing?

DS was held all the time (cc style) and he didn't crawl till 10m and walked at 12m. I think it has more to do with genetics than attachment parenting or muscle tone. DD is 10 weeks, held most of the time, but she's still pretty weak. Not much I can do about it, it just is that way..


----------



## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jrose_lee* 
Hey! I'm looking for everyone's thoughts on babies (ds is 5 months) and small pieces/toys. What is everyone's experience with this? Ds1 is 3.5 so we have some smaller toys around now.

Is anyone really concerned with baby choking on a small object? There must be some reason for concern or else people wouldn't worry about it?

Can I hear thoughts on the safety of letting babies have smaller toys etc?

TIA!

Well, I have heard that breastfed babies have a stronger gag reflex... according to this theory, it is bottlefed babies who create the choking baby statistics... actually, I can't recall ds ever really choking, and he was always putting little things in his mouth...
I have also heard that you should encourage your little one to "spit it out" instead of reaching into their mouth to take it out: this helps them develop their own reflex more.


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## EnviroBecca

I might have been worried about my baby choking if he had been inclined to wander off on his own, but he always preferred to play near me (or another adult) so if he had choked we would have been right there to help him, so we were not particularly concerned about letting him play with small objects. Also, he did not show much tendency to put small things in his mouth; he was not very orally oriented, and what he did chew/suck on was usually parts of bigger things. We did set aside a few toys due to concerns about choking, for example a ball filled with very tiny plastic foam pellets inside stretchy fabric--he liked to chew on it, and we figured that if he bit it open, he could aspirate the pellets very suddenly and they'd be hard to get out of him!

As it turned out, the only times he choked involved food, not toys:
1. He experimented with eating crackers while lying down and put too many in his mouth at once. He was in my lap at the time, so I just turned him face-down and let him cough them out.
2. At 2 years old, he was eating raw snowpeas in the car when he inexplicably fell asleep with his mouth full







and choked. I was glad EnviroDaddy was riding in back with him so that he noticed right away and could start pulling food out of his mouth even before I stopped the car! This is just the sort of dumb thing people with an intact continuum are not supposed to do







, but accidents do happen.


----------



## Periwinkle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jrose_lee* 
Hey! I'm looking for everyone's thoughts on babies (ds is 5 months) and small pieces/toys. What is everyone's experience with this? Ds1 is 3.5 so we have some smaller toys around now.

Is anyone really concerned with baby choking on a small object? There must be some reason for concern or else people wouldn't worry about it?

Can I hear thoughts on the safety of letting babies have smaller toys etc?

TIA!

A baby too young to clear a small object from their mouth (e.g., <6-9 months) is too young to be on the ground near such objects. I'm sure that CC would say that a baby should still very much be "in arms" at this stage and part of that is to protect the baby. An older baby... say a 15 month old who is capable of eating real foods (not just purees) - things like Cheerios and peas and bits of meat or whatnot - should not have much trouble with pushing a small Lego out of their mouths. There's really no difference between a small Lego and a small pebble, wood chip, nut, seed, etc. But the important thing is that a baby even this age was in the constant company of a knowledgeable caregiver who could easily swipe something chokeable like an almond out of the baby's mouth if they had trouble with it.


----------



## Holiztic

Hey all. I have not read CC and don't have it in me (okay, I do really, I just don't have the time) to read through all 53 pages of this thread! Forgive me for just jumping in!

I think I just get the idea of CC without knowing anything specifically about the book's ideas. Please feel free to tell me if I have it wrong.

We did on-demand bf, co-sleeping (still do), in arms etc until he could walk. Did not own a single item for holding or confining a baby (bouncy seat, walker, excersaucer, pack n play, etc) or for "entertaining" either. He was in a sling or in my lap.

Once he could walk we decided to get a stroller. We've hardly used it. He walks everywhere we go, unless he's just too pooped, then I'll carry him long enough to get home or somewhere to rest. (except when DH is around, when DS is carried everywhere--see later question)

We never baby-proofed, we just taught him what he should and shouldn't do. He's always used "real" everything. Plates, glasses, table knives, etc. He walks in the grocery store with me and is quite "well behaved". I don't know if this is CC, but I always just believed kids will live up to what we expect of them and what their world is made of.

Ds has always eaten at the table with us, what we eat and when we eat it. We talk to him and we talk to one another. No toys, TV (well, never any TV, but certainly not at meals!) Well, we now have a 2.5 year old that will sit in his seat for up to 1 hour (at all three meals) never less than 30 minutes. Eats all of his food, mostly quietly or with conversation.

Our typical day is about 60-70% me working around the house (I cook everything from scratch. Everything. I work in the kitchen 3-4 hours a day while DS plays on his own He'll check in with me or ask for something for his play. He's never "entertained" during this time though I'll suggest something for him to do. He rarely whines unless he's hungry or overtired. The other 30-40% is meal times (together), playing outside, errands, or reading. Sometimes I'll play with him, but often I do yard work or read while he'll play quietly in a pile of leaves or around a tree for up to an hour.

I notice on the days that I am really tired or ill and sit more, he becomes fussy and clingy. Is this in line with the CC idea?

Okay, that was just to see if I am even accurate in thinking I am CC. Feel free to tell me I'm not. Maybe I should just read the book!!

What I really wanted to ask is this: DH is not like me. He STILL says things like "honey, can you watch him/play with him, I need to use the bathroom". I keep saying "he's 2, he's fine" I keep explaining that the reason DS clings to DH and fusses and constantly demands DH do this and do that and DS almost exclusively throws tantrums when DH is around is because DH JUST watches/plays with DS. He never tries to DO anything else. Like he's the babysitter.

Would reading the book help? He's a reader and very open to written materials when well written. I just want to make sure its right for our situation, as his free time is pretty minimal.

Thanks!


----------



## riverscout

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm* 
Spottiew, I hear you. There is way too much difference between our lives and those of natural cultures. I have a page on my site developing about this, although like most of my life, it is still unfinished (procrastination, anyone?). Parenting, Unplugged

I personally take the angle that you have to change things up for the first few years of the child's life if you want to try to be biologically appropriate with child raising. We simply can't keep things the same AND be biologically appropriate if for no other reason than our modern western lives are so far from natural as to be hilarious.

"Getting into nature" is going to the park, beach or the backyard for most, it certainly isn't thrashing through a jungle or hiking a mountain or picking berries from a cactus in the desert. We don't teach how to build a ground nest out of leaves or a shelter out of bark, we teach how to operate a remote control. The fact that we have a term like "getting into nature" pretty much sums it up.

So we have to make a choice. Keep things the same and struggle with "what to do" all day, or change things up, shake things around and go feral for a while. We learn as much as they do when we do that, but it isn't for everyone. I don't do housework because I can't. I have a fierce jungle baby, who lets me know what he wants and how he wants it and he is demanding natural and I am adapting. Kicking and screaming about it sometimes, yes, but adapting.

What would you do all day if you didn't have a job but _also_ didn't have a child? Aside from "go stir crazy". There's no such thing as boring situations, only boring thoughts. Imagine you are financially independent and finally free of work constraints... what would you do? I'd still do my job occasionally (and I do it for free at the moment, actually), so I just take my son. I also like sitting around, sloth like. It's not everyone's cup of tea but I love it, and my son adapted to that (we have had to adapt to each other's quirks, as ya do).

Usually though, it's not easy. Suburban life is designed to take us away from our homes, into work and then back to cook and sleep. Weekends are also about getting away from our homes, into some activity, and then back to cook and sleep. We don't really "live" in our homes, there's not much to learn in them for the very small. My son goes stir crazy if we're not outside, he starts getting destructive because he isn't growing and learning. I still haven't figured out how to do it in a house, esp as I am not one of those people who can do the homemade play dough thing and water play and whatnot without wanting to rip my own face off. It's just NOT my thing. I don't do "child play". And there are many like me, many more than they like to admit because it's just not the "done thing" to admit you hate playing child games when you have children.









Luckily for me, I am drawn to the parenting philosophies that _don't_ encourage child play and structuring my life around them, but them fitting in with me. I believe child games are for children, my time for them has passed, thank Lerds, and my parents never played with me (they were old folk when I was born) and I benefited from that and wouldn't change it. So I have to create a life for them to fit into. Something that benefits us all. Not easy. Other children were meant to be in a child's life. I see this in all other cultures - except ours, as usual. Unstructured play with different ages, unfettered with adult presence. They only play with us cos we're the only ones there. I find as soon as there are other kids around, I become invisible to my kids. And it is MAGICAL. They don't want to play with me, they don't even need me to "Watch this" and "look at me mom". Their neediness just disappears. It suddenly feels... natural.

I wish I had an answer, but I don't. I resent our culture, can you tell? We've isolated the family, esp the mother and children, from the rest of the world, from our communities.

If anyone has any ideas, I'd be open to them. Let's start a commune, a good one, on a river bank, with tire swings and nightly campfires. Woot.


Sometimes I start to wonder why I come to MDC, and then I read a great post like this







. You have summed up so much of what I have been feeling and thinking lately.

I've been bouncing between just wanting to throw my hands up in the air and take an if you can't beat 'em join 'em approach and just go thrust myself right into modern mainstream culture to just wanting to say screw it all and give away all our worldly possessions and move to some hippie commune in Costa Rica or something equally as drastic. The rest of the time I try in vein to make the two worlds meet which just leads to frustration. I felt I had sort of a decent balance going on before I had my second child, but things have sort of gone to crap since.


----------



## EnviroBecca

Holiztic, it sounds to me like you are pretty CC! Your husband might benefit from the book, but he might benefit even more from some of the articles on the Website, and they are shorter and don't cost anything.







"Who's in Control?" and "Restoring Harmony" probably are the most relevant.

Quote:

I notice on the days that I am really tired or ill and sit more, he becomes fussy and clingy. Is this in line with the CC idea?
Hmmm...it's CC for your child to become upset when you seem not to be your usual competent self. He may be expressing worry about that or about your needs/feelings. I have seen this from EnviroKid at times.

But another thing I've seen, actually moreso when my son was a baby than now, is following my example when I change my behavior due to illness. When he was just 8 weeks old, I got a bad cold and spent most of my time sleeping for 2 days. He cheerfully lay next to me ALL of that time; he slept more than usual, but at times I would awaken to find him quietly entertaining himself by studying his own hand or something like that.







At that age he normally had one or more times a day when he cried a lot and could be calmed only with lots of rocking or a long walk, but during my illness he did that only once and briefly. He had no symptoms of illness himself. Now that he's older (and still tends not to catch anything I get--he's incredibly healthy!), he'd rather spend my sick days at school or with Daddy, but he very strongly wants me to be nested in HIS bed and will go to bed early and stay in bed late. He makes demands that don't seem very CC (or considerate)--he wants the light on, he wants me to read to him--but he also seems to enjoy the experience, for instance snuggling up to my feverish body and sighing blissfully, "Ahh, what warmness!"









It's an interesting contrast with the way he responds when his dad is sick. We have the family bed in the kid's room, and because of nursing I've been the one more likely to sleep in there, so he takes it for granted that Daddy's sickbed will be in the master bedroom. And then he's following MY example, not his dad's. I mean, when either adult is sick, the usual routine is that the other adult avoids physical contact with the sickie but checks on him/her a few times a day to offer food, thermometer, or conversation from a distance. When I'M sick, EnviroKid is wanting to be with me, but when his dad is sick, he wants to bring a glass of water and tuck in the blankets and then get out of there--not the slightest interest in hugging Daddy, much less getting into bed with him or moving toys into his room so he can play near him. Then there's the aftermath: Because this approach to Daddy's illness means I am doing all the parenting (helping with clothes, serving food, reading stories, etc.), EnviroKid then acts as if this is the way it's supposed to be, and when his dad is well he resists letting him do anything with him!







It's fascinating but really kind of annoying too.


----------



## Not Sure

I read Holiztic's post this morning, and have been feeling bad for the rest of the day - not that you said ANYTHING wrong, Holiztic!!! I think I'm having a "But what about ME?!
moment, so sorry if I'm a bit needy...

Anyway, I found this thread, and managed to read the whole thing (whew! that took some work! oh wait, should I not call it "work"?!) about a month before dd (my 1st baby) was born at the end of July, and ready TCC during the month of August, and so love the overall concept that I've been trying really hard to implement the ideas presented with dd. Now, we already had a crib and stroller and pack 'n play, but between TCC and some other reading I decided to go with cosleeping (family bed), and the pack 'n play only got used for the attached changing table, so it's in storage now, and we haven't used the stroller at all, we baby-wear instead. I spent the first 2 months of dd's life with her in my arms or, if outside, being worn (she wouldn't let me wear her in the house, she wanted to be held). This meant that I could do NOTHING around the house. I could barely feed myself, sometimes dh had to feed me!, and often went for more than 8 hours without using the bathroom because I thought I shouldn't put her down but she wouldn't go in her wrap unlesss we went for a walk. When I would give her to dh when he got home so I could pee or rest my arms or eat something, he would almost always have put her in her crib or in her floor gym/mat (a gift) or bouncy seat (another gift) by the time I came back, which would piss me right off. But then, I started noticing that she LIKED playing in her floor gym or watching the mobile over her crib (it IS a cool mobile, I like watching it myself) once in a while. In fact, sometimes when she would cry this would be what she wanted, so, I started putting her in there, too. Over the past couple of weeks (dd is now 3 months as of 2 days ago) we've even gotten in a routine of her playing in her gym and then watching her mobile every morning after we get up while I have a cup of decaf and a yogurt. In the afternoon we nurse and cuddle/nap a lot, do yoga together or I massage and bathe her. When it's cool enough (we're in Florida) we go for a walk. It just seems wrong to "containerize" her, but she's not unhappy; in fact, she WANTS to be put down sometimes... and then I worry I'm being too "child-centered," but she's only 3 months old...

I dunno, I'm just a first-time mom who is home alone all day, over-tired (dh does not help w/the over-night stuff), and worries too much and is looking for a little support/validation, I guess...


----------



## Holiztic

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Not Sure* 
I read Holiztic's post this morning, and have been feeling bad for the rest of the day - not that you said ANYTHING wrong, Holiztic!!! I think I'm having a "But what about ME?!
moment, so sorry if I'm a bit needy...

Anyway, I found this thread, and managed to read the whole thing (whew! that took some work! oh wait, should I not call it "work"?!) about a month before dd (my 1st baby) was born at the end of July, and ready TCC during the month of August, and so love the overall concept that I've been trying really hard to implement the ideas presented with dd. Now, we already had a crib and stroller and pack 'n play, but between TCC and some other reading I decided to go with cosleeping (family bed), and the pack 'n play only got used for the attached changing table, so it's in storage now, and we haven't used the stroller at all, we baby-wear instead. I spent the first 2 months of dd's life with her in my arms or, if outside, being worn (she wouldn't let me wear her in the house, she wanted to be held). This meant that I could do NOTHING around the house. I could barely feed myself, sometimes dh had to feed me!, and often went for more than 8 hours without using the bathroom because I thought I shouldn't put her down but she wouldn't go in her wrap unlesss we went for a walk. When I would give her to dh when he got home so I could pee or rest my arms or eat something, he would almost always have put her in her crib or in her floor gym/mat (a gift) or bouncy seat (another gift) by the time I came back, which would piss me right off. But then, I started noticing that she LIKED playing in her floor gym or watching the mobile over her crib (it IS a cool mobile, I like watching it myself) once in a while. In fact, sometimes when she would cry this would be what she wanted, so, I started putting her in there, too. Over the past couple of weeks (dd is now 3 months as of 2 days ago) we've even gotten in a routine of her playing in her gym and then watching her mobile every morning after we get up while I have a cup of decaf and a yogurt. In the afternoon we nurse and cuddle/nap a lot, do yoga together or I massage and bathe her. When it's cool enough (we're in Florida) we go for a walk. It just seems wrong to "containerize" her, but she's not unhappy; in fact, she WANTS to be put down sometimes... and then I worry I'm being too "child-centered," but she's only 3 months old...

I dunno, I'm just a first-time mom who is home alone all day, over-tired (dh does not help w/the over-night stuff), and worries too much and is looking for a little support/validation, I guess...

Oh honey, don't let ME make YOU feel bad!! My DS is 2.5!!!! When he was 3 months old I was just getting over severe postpartum anxiety/panic disorder. I had MANY panic attacks in those first months, but there's one I'd like to share:

I knew I wanted to be "this kind" of parent long ago (AP, NFL, CC). We bought our king latex/organic cotton/wool bed while pregnant in order to have a family bed. We told all our baby shower guests "no baby holders please". BUT at 3 days old, with DS crying all night and me deathly (I mean that literally) afraid to go to sleep (I thought I was going to die in my sleep and leave DS), I was ludicrous (well, close to it). My mom brought over a mechanical swing (a really nice one, I guess) and said "I know you don't want to do this, but just set it up and then see what happens." I said no, no, no. He needs me or DH, all the time. He's 3 days old. It sat (assembled) in our room for a week. By the end of the week I was a wreck. One morning at about 4 am DS was crying and nursing didn't help (nor anything else we tried). So I (delirious) put him in the swing, moving it as close to my side of the bed as it could possibly go. I then fell into a deep sleep (first in a week). When I woke at 6 am and he was peacefully sound asleep in the swing, I lost it. Full blown panic attack. Heart racing, room spinning, etc. I thought I had just given my son up to the Devil or something.

Well, I got over that. Used the swing until the anxiety wore off (so I guess I lied when I said we never used a baby holder!!! Sorry! I truly forgot!) But that's the whole point of my post here, to tell you that 2.5 years from now you're going to have such a world of (great! I am sure) parenting under your belt that these little things (a bouncy seat occasionally, a play mat? really!) are not going to define your parenting at all. AT ALL.

BTW, I did not wear DS all day while I made butter and mucked the horse stalls







He often laid on the bed next to me while I read a book. DH and I did a lot of the "now you hold him" thing in the first 6 months so the other could get work done, what little work we actually did at that point! My CCing really started at around 1. We were AP before that, which informed our choices regarding sleep and on demand nursing, but the CC lifestyle kicked in around 1, when he could walk and started to communicate. Honestly, in those first months--just love your baby and go with your gut. Really!


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## Periwinkle

Holitzic I think you'd like the book - you should read it. It's a quick read. I think everything you're doing sounds pretty consistent, but I will say it's easier to CC (just like it's easier to AP) a baby or a very young child in this society than an older one. I wish there were books by CC and AP authors who would focus on the REST of childhood (and the teenage years), etc.! I mean, like 9 of the 10 AP things focus on things you do with a baby. After that it's just "use positive discipline." Gee thanks guys. I mean, breastfeeding - there's no grey area there... you do it or you don't. Same with babywearing and other CC/AP overlap things. But "positive discipline" is such an utterly undefined term, one that is used to mean any number of things - and since when did the be all and end all of advice on how to successfully parent involve discipline?? It's like looking for a book describing how to be healthy but only finding books about how to cure acne, backaches, and cancer.

ANYWAY... sorry for the rant. But my point is, I think understanding what to do with a baby or toddler isn't that hard - you're right. And you don't have to read a book to figure out how to parent instinctively and naturally. But at some point probably pretty soon if your son is already a toddler, you're going to enter the realm of him entering "the real world" (unfortunately!) and that's when it gets really hard really fast. I think it's helpful to have a solid foundation on what these concepts really are (so, reading Leidloff and others or whomever suits your fancy) upon which to build. HTH.


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## LucyRev

I remember my babies (now 6 and 3 yrs old) sometimes getting to a point where they just wanted to lay on the floor or the bed or somewhere just not being touched. Maybe they were overstimulated, or feeling my stress or something. I don't know. It sounds like you are doing a great job of listening to your daughter's needs. Each child has their own temperament. I think we need to listen to our instincts and not always worry about if we are doing it "right". Obviously, most of the mamas on MDC are mindful and think about all these things a ton.

I wonder if a different type of carrier might help you get some work done around the house? I loved my fleece pouch with the baby facing out so she could see everything going on.

Right now I'm not doing so hot either. Homeschooing is feeling really overwhelming and frustrating. I don't have the support system I feel we should. My 6yr old DD and myself are both pretty introverted and fairly happy homebodies, so I don't want a huge ton of activities and connections. My DD found school completely overwhelming and doesn't even want to do outside classes, so it is a lot on my shoulders. How am I supposed to balance doing my own thing with homeschooling, even though we are relaxed and lean towards unschooling? I want to run away to a cabin in the woods and spend all my time churning butter and mucking horse stalls while the kids catch toads or some b.s. pastoral fantasy like that.


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## Holiztic

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LucyRev* 
I want to run away to a cabin in the woods and spend all my time churning butter and mucking horse stalls while the kids catch toads or some b.s. pastoral fantasy like that.









I don't thinks its b.s. and only somewhat a fantasy. I consider it quite often, really.









BTW, you sound like me in a few years. We're going to homeschool, heavily unschool in the early years, and we're totally homebodies.

I do, however, make our butter--but I chose a food processor over the churn







. No horses (and I'm mostly glad for that, goats, however, would be great!)


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## Not Sure

Thanks, everyone, for the reassurance, it helped a LOT! I've been putting SO much pressure on myself to not traumatize my little one by putting her down that I think I wigged out for a bit there... Thanks for sharing your story, Holiztic. I'm so sorry you had to go through that - I've had panic attacks before and they are seriously not fun. And right when you come home with your precious baby - ouch! I couldn't sleep for over a week when dd was born unless I gave her to one of her grandparents to hold while I took an hour-long nap a day because I just could not stop looking at her...

The"in-arms" phase is supPOSed to be straught forward, but every baby is different, and I bet dd is introverted like both myself and dh, so she probably needs a break from the stimulation and my stressed-out energy. I was so worried about what to do later, after the in-arms phase (PPs are so right! WTH is "gentle discipline" anyway?! What does a cc-take on it look like??), that I never considered that my baby would have periods of _not_ wanting to be in-arms, and thought I was being a "bad mother" somehow if she didn't want me to hold her. But as long as she's happy, and she really is most of the time!, she must be getting what she needs, and _that_ is all that matters.

BTW, is it CC to dance around the living room to Al Green's "Let's Stay Together" with dd in my arms when she's overtired and wants to held? 'Cause sometimes it's the only thing that will calm her, and she'll fall asleep on my shoulder, and it's sooo nice to sing those words to her... *sigh*  (Gonna do it anyway!)


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## LittleSoulMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Not Sure* 
BTW, is it CC to dance around the living room to Al Green's "Let's Stay Together" with dd in my arms when she's overtired and wants to held? 'Cause sometimes it's the only thing that will calm her, and she'll fall asleep on my shoulder, and it's sooo nice to sing those words to her... *sigh*  (Gonna do it anyway!)

Lol! Definitely sounds CC to me!


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## katelove

To change the subject for a minute, sorry... I have been toying with the idea of blogging our experiences of following TCC with our first baby. I'm imagining a kind of warts and all diary of what we do, how it works for us in our circumstances, adaptations, challenges etc.

Do you think that would be something people would be interested in reading? Feel free to say no


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## Holiztic

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katelove* 
To change the subject for a minute, sorry... I have been toying with the idea of blogging our experiences of following TCC with our first baby. I'm imagining a kind of warts and all diary of what we do, how it works for us in our circumstances, adaptations, challenges etc.

Do you think that would be something people would be interested in reading? Feel free to say no

















I would!


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## bluedaisy

Hi everyone









I haven't read TCC book yet but I've read a lot on the website and on MDC - I also lived in another culture (Kenya) for several years and thought many of the ways they care for children are better for the children - wearing them, extended bf on demand, not being so child centered,etc

My dd is 11 months old now and one thing my DH (who is Kenyan) and I have noticed is how child centered American culture is. When we get together with people who have small kids, they are always the center of attention and it's hard to have an adult conversation without interruptions every 30 seconds.

We are trying not to be child centered - I often let her play by herself while i fold laundry, wash dishes, check email, etc, she's sat through meetings with me (not so much anymore but when she was younger), we have friends over and focus on adult conversation and she's usually fine to play by herself. it's hard when we only have one - it seems like it would be easier if there were other kids around for her to play with.

I'm wondering - what does not being child centered look like in your house? what are practical things you do? What are things you observe in homes that are child centered?

Oh, and I would definitely read a blog on this!!


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## LittleSoulMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katelove* 
To change the subject for a minute, sorry... I have been toying with the idea of blogging our experiences of following TCC with our first baby. I'm imagining a kind of warts and all diary of what we do, how it works for us in our circumstances, adaptations, challenges etc.

Do you think that would be something people would be interested in reading? Feel free to say no









I would love to read it! Do let us know if you start a blog.


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## BabyHaysMama

I'm sure this has been addressed in this thread, but I really don't have the time to read every page.

I really like many of the ideas presented in CC. I have yet to read the book, (i'm going to check to see if our library has it.) But I do have some some concerns in regards to child safety.

DS1 is 3 years old and I've never had any problems with him getting hurt. We child proofed our house, (outlet plugs, drawer and cupboard locks; but nothing beyond that). DS2 on the other hand is 13 months old and loves to climb on everything. Our most recent injury involved our Plan Toys house toppling over on him as he was climbing the Ikea Lack side table that it (the house) was placed on. This injury involved a cut lip (on the inside of his mouth), another sore just below his lip and a bruise/scratch on his upper leg.

My first reaction to his injuries is to put him into our barely used playpen when I leave the room. Would I be untrusting of him to do this according to the CC? I can't bare to see him get hurt anymore (he's been to emerg once because of a gash on his eyebrow - 6 stitches). Or should I just expect him no to climb? I'm really struggling with this aspect and I wanted to know what other families do in regards to safety.


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## flowers

BabyHaysMama-

We have similar dynamics. My first was like a little duckling who followed right behind me, didn't really climb etc. My second is ready to just run out into the street and his favorite place to climb is perched with his feet inside the sunroof of the Modern Plan Playhouse which is on top of a short bureau. We also have steep, loft ladder like stairs to our bedroom and I was really tempted to put a gate up.

He's asked me as a parent to be a lot more aware than I needed to be with my first. I try to stay as aware as possible and find that feeling in my gut of knowing when he needs me to be close of when he's playing contentedly and safely. There is a lot of listening involved. I find when he's playing safely on the ground I can hear him. He usually gets much more quiet when he's focusing on climbing something more dangerous. If he's quiet I go check and if he's climbing I try to stay busy close by. Sometimes if he's climbing the loft ladder I scoop him up and bring him back into the kitchen with me and offer a new activity like washing dishes. There have been many times where we have just sat on the stairs, letting him safely explore them. I felt I wanted him to get as much experience on them so he could safely maneuver them himself.


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## accountkilled

I love the mothering.com tribes, however, 55 pages makes it a bit difficult for newcomers to jump in, don't you think? How do you all manage this thread and keep track of where you were?


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## sweetpeppers

I read the whole thing when it was about 40 pages. It was fun. Like reading a book. I just read a few pages a day. It was very helpful and encouraging.


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## webjefita

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BabyHaysMama* 
I'm sure this has been addressed in this thread, but I really don't have the time to read every page.

I really like many of the ideas presented in CC. I have yet to read the book, (i'm going to check to see if our library has it.) But I do have some some concerns in regards to child safety.

DS1 is 3 years old and I've never had any problems with him getting hurt. We child proofed our house, (outlet plugs, drawer and cupboard locks; but nothing beyond that). DS2 on the other hand is 13 months old and loves to climb on everything. Our most recent injury involved our Plan Toys house toppling over on him as he was climbing the Ikea Lack side table that it (the house) was placed on. This injury involved a cut lip (on the inside of his mouth), another sore just below his lip and a bruise/scratch on his upper leg.

My first reaction to his injuries is to put him into our barely used playpen when I leave the room. Would I be untrusting of him to do this according to the CC? I can't bare to see him get hurt anymore (he's been to emerg once because of a gash on his eyebrow - 6 stitches). Or should I just expect him no to climb? I'm really struggling with this aspect and I wanted to know what other families do in regards to safety.

Hi there. You would enjoy the book, I think. There is a playpen story in there! ;-)

My first reaction to your post is to wonder if you could prepare the environment in a way that is safer for him, and that would allow him more freedom. I do not own any Ikea furniture, but maybe if it is not extremely sturdy you could remove the table for awhile.

We have an upstairs loft with a half wall that looks over our entry. When our boys got to the age where they could climb, we removed all furniture in that room that could have been used to pull over to the half wall. Basically, only left the couch and entertainment center. This is an example that comes to mind for preparing the environment. (wait, am I using Montessori jargon now? sorry!)

Also, we have a baby gate at the top of the stairs but not at the bottom. We do allow our children to use the stairs and learn to navigate them, including a couple of falls. Our daughter is 10 months old and can now go up and down the stairs. We are just very aware of her and where she is and will accompany her on the stairs when she is there, but we let her do it herself.

Another example is that when something is new I plan on spending a big chunk of time teaching the kids or supervising their use of it. When the boys got new bunk beds, I knew ahead of time that the first 2-3 days, a lot of our time was going to be spent together in that room. Rather than try to give them a lot of rules or prohibit them from playing on the top bunk, I spent time with them teaching them how to get up and down and play safely. I knew they were going to be attracted to the novelty of it and this way I was there when they were learning, I could see they were safe, and now it is old hat for them.

I hope something of that helps answer your question. Good luck!


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## webjefita

Quote:

I could not fill my day with 'taking care of the house' even if I wanted to... do other people really spend their days doing chores and projects and 'adult things', etc, day after day?
I'll answer this... ummm... yeah, for me, yeah  I have three, but even when I had two, I could easily spend my whole day on: 1) basic childcare (feeding, changing, bathing) 2) basic housework, 3) cooking meals and cleaning up after them. I enjoy cooking and have learned to cook only after having children, so there's lots of time involved in trying new recipes and making things from scratch. I love to bake for and with my children. Gardening is a big thing I enjoy during the summer. There's also yard work, shopping, occassional deep cleaning, organization projects.... we have a lot of house and yard to care for though, and only me to do it.

We get together weekly with friends ... my friends... whose children are my children's friends. That is essential.

Winter has us a little bit stir crazy. But come spring, we will be outside again and hiking, spending days at the park, and gardening.

So it's not like I feel I'm always pursuing my own interests... I gave up scrapbooking and crafting and watching TV and going out... but I guess I am involved in things I enjoy that help to create a home and a life for our family. I don't often play with my children. I do support them in their play (help them organize their legos if they ask, for example, or help them fashion a lightsaber from a paper towel roll). I love that they have siblings. We don't have a tribe, but at least they have each other.


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## webjefita

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jrose_lee* 
Hey! I'm looking for everyone's thoughts on babies (ds is 5 months) and small pieces/toys. What is everyone's experience with this? Ds1 is 3.5 so we have some smaller toys around now.

Is anyone really concerned with baby choking on a small object? There must be some reason for concern or else people wouldn't worry about it?

Can I hear thoughts on the safety of letting babies have smaller toys etc?

TIA!

On our third baby now. We used to be much more concerned. This time around, we explained to the boys what sized pieces could be "chokeable," and they help keep those things off of the floor. The main thing we have been careful with is legos.

With food, bits of paper, etc. I have not been too concerned. I have seen my babies spit things up (even vomit) and have taught our youngest to spit things out of her mouth when I say "spit" 

I also believe that we attract what we fear, so more often now I try to reorient myself to feel confident in their abilities to stay safe, and focus on that.

Quote:

What I really wanted to ask is this: DH is not like me. He STILL says things like "honey, can you watch him/play with him, I need to use the bathroom". I keep saying "he's 2, he's fine" I keep explaining that the reason DS clings to DH and fusses and constantly demands DH do this and do that and DS almost exclusively throws tantrums when DH is around is because DH JUST watches/plays with DS. He never tries to DO anything else. Like he's the babysitter.
My husband is exactly like this, and we still to this day have disagreements over it. Our older kids behave very differently with him, are more demanding, (I see it as insecure because he is not taking a strong adult-oriented leadership role), he plays with them exclusively when he is with them, and always expects me to "watch" them more when we're together. I cannot get him to understand, I guess because there is no way for him to observe how I am with them when I'm alone, that I go about my business and yet am still aware of them and available to them, but I'm not catering to them and giving them undivided attention all day long. It gets very old, this back and forth between us.


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## voxana

I also posted this question in the toddler forum, but I'd also like to hear what you Continuum Concept mamas think about this:

My ds, almost one year old, has become more temperamental in the past few weeks. Normally he is cheerful and sweet, but lately with loud, raspy, repetitive grunts he makes demands or protests. Usually in each instance there is a particular object he might want or a diaper change that he doesn't want, but also, I think he seems to be in a bad mood to begin with.... If I don't give him a desired object (like a pair of scissors or a pen), he has a huge crying fit. I then try to distract him with another object, but that works about half of the time.

I wonder if this is a preview or a beginning of toddler struggles. Have any of you mamas experienced this and have advice? Is there a good book that might help? I'm eager for a peaceful home and will appreciate any suggestions!!!!


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## sweetpeppers

I was searching for Continuum Concept blogs, and I came across this blog that made me mad. I really have a problem when other people talk about this book like it's just about the Yequana. It's not really about them. It's about a concept of childrearing that is seen all over the globe. She saw it there first, but that's not the only place people raise their kids in a "continuum concept" manner. I especially don't like it when attachment parenting followers dismiss her book for those reasons. I mean, she started the modern day AP movement. And personally, I think your (and other peoples') attitude(s)--which is what the CC is all about-- towards your baby/child is going to make more of a difference than carrying them all the time and sleeping in the same bed, though I do think those things are important.

We need more action on this thread. I miss reading it.


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## zansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *voxana* 
I also posted this question in the toddler forum, but I'd also like to hear what you Continuum Concept mamas think about this:

My ds, almost one year old, has become more temperamental in the past few weeks. Normally he is cheerful and sweet, but lately with loud, raspy, repetitive grunts he makes demands or protests. Usually in each instance there is a particular object he might want or a diaper change that he doesn't want, but also, I think he seems to be in a bad mood to begin with.... If I don't give him a desired object (like a pair of scissors or a pen), he has a huge crying fit. I then try to distract him with another object, but that works about half of the time.

I wonder if this is a preview or a beginning of toddler struggles. Have any of you mamas experienced this and have advice? Is there a good book that might help? I'm eager for a peaceful home and will appreciate any suggestions!!!!

It sounds to me like he's learning to communicate!
Think of how these little folks' day goes: people come and do stuff to them, whether they like it or not, they see thingsthat they want, but aren't really able to tell anyone, or get them for themselves...
Also, they need a lot of sleep, imo, and nursing...
I subscribe to the "nurse them every time they fuss" school. At 1, he's still just a baby, so he needs some mama comfort, and those calming hormones sure don't hurt. We had no trouble with ds as a toddler, because by the time he would be done nursing, he had forgotten what he was upset about. Even if ds's troubles sometimes seemed silly to me, they are important to him, so a little snuggle and a little "awwww, baby's not happy







" always helps to set things right.
By the way, in some tribes, the nearest available mother would probably just pick up the fussy baby and nurse him...

And maybe set up his own stuff that he can reach for himself, so that he can amuse himself without depending on you to get things for him.


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## Choosingjoy

Wow!.... So, I read through this thread in it's entireity over the last week; one might say I was a bit excited/ desperate for all the input on CC perspectives what an amazing blessing to hear from so many mamas! I have no friends or aqcuaintences who relate much to these concepts... So I hope you are all still around! I want to respond to so very many posts, but I will try to not get ahead of myself and start with the basics. I am mother to one very active and happy fella who was born in December of '09 I read tcc when he was about four months old and it was a lovely change to be validated in many areas (wearing him in a wrap, choosing a family bed over a crib, breastfeeding on cue and striving to be family oriented) instead of judged I have many inquiries, but will save them for later.


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## sweetpeppers

I am so excited someone revived this thread! I was just rereading the book. My son is three now, and I think it is just as important for older kids as for younger kids. I'll talk in more detail later.


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## Rebelima

Hello! Im excited to see that there is a CC tribe on Mdc  I am a new mommy to a 12 week old boy, and wife to my DH. I am an American living in Israel for the last 5.5 years. I read the book last year and it really resonated with me. and changed my attitude about babies and children and society as a whole. I am trying to implament as many concepts as possible, while tweaking them to fit in with our complicated modern life. I wear DS almost constantly and bf' on demand (which often means every 45 mins (ds loves to snack!) and of course sharing a family bed. I could definatly use the like minded support. I have been fortunate to have full support from my mom and famiIy living in the USA, but have definatly had a bit of a hard time dealing with my MIL, who just does not understand anything that is unfamiliar to her and pretty much refuses to. For instance I decided on not getting a stroller, because i would prefer to carry DS everywhere and all the time, but she went out and got a stroller anyways! which really pissed me off, caus now i have to find a place for it in our already crowded apartment! Anyways, I could definatly use tips and adivce from others who are in to TCC and just the general support of like minded mommies  BTW Jean Liedloff passed away a few days ago  I just want to express how important i think her work was and is, and i hope that her message continues to be spread in order to help make better lives for more families. Thanks  I look forward to posting and reading other posts.


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## LunaLady

I'm sad this thread isn't active anymore. I haven't read it all (there's so much!) but I did start at the beginning and read what I had the time to read.

I just read TCC and I feel mixed. I agree with Jean on so many levels and I'm desperate to raise my 8 month old DS in a TCC way, but I feel so depressed about how hard that will be in our modern world. I feel that for myself I have a TON of issues due to my having no in-arms period as a child among other things. I can see in myself the sheer amount of things that have resulted as of this.

Anyhow, I'm also upset because DS was 7 weeks early and we did not get the after-birth bonding time (I didn't get to hold him until he was 12 hours old) and he was in the NICU until he was 4 weeks old. I kind of feel like everything is already 'ruined' due to those things alone.

He's a very spirited baby and requires a lot of me. He cries A LOT. Even being carried in the Ergo and out and about on hikes or at fairs or whatever.. he's cranky and arching his back and closing his eyes to wail. I feel like I'm failing even when I'm trying to do everything 'right'. We have co-slept since he came home and we also bf (although that took a while to get established, I pumped until he was 3 months old).

Overall, I feel excited to have read this book and feel I have a lot of insight into helping my son develop, but have I ruined it already?


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## Didi Wildrover

anyone want to get this active? theres very little discussion on the facebook page...there is an email list but i prefer the forum format? anyone..?


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## LunaLady

I would love for this to be active. Is that a way to make a 'group' so we can have many topics going at once?


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## MommyMichele

I remember feeling like it was so important to get things "right" in the beginning. Now that I have three kids ages 11, 8, and 5, the beginning is hard to remember and doesn't seem so important anymore. You can always make good choices in the present. Don't feel anything is ruined.


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## LunaLady

Thank you, Michele. I have tried to embrace acceptance of what is and enjoy the here and now and know I can make the changes I want to make in the present. It is hard, though!

I am wondering how to go about making sure my son doesn't get mixed signals and such from other people who care for him - mainly my parents. The come over frequently to hang out with the baby while I get some stuff done around the house, but they are certainly not going to be being 'CC-y'.


----------



## cat13

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LunaLady*
> 
> I'm sad this thread isn't active anymore. I haven't read it all (there's so much!) but I did start at the beginning and read what I had the time to read.
> 
> I just read TCC and I feel mixed. I agree with Jean on so many levels and I'm desperate to raise my 8 month old DS in a TCC way, but I feel so depressed about how hard that will be in our modern world. I feel that for myself I have a TON of issues due to my having no in-arms period as a child among other things. I can see in myself the sheer amount of things that have resulted as of this.
> 
> Anyhow, I'm also upset because DS was 7 weeks early and we did not get the after-birth bonding time (I didn't get to hold him until he was 12 hours old) and he was in the NICU until he was 4 weeks old. I kind of feel like everything is already 'ruined' due to those things alone.
> 
> *He's a very spirited baby and requires a lot of me. He cries A LOT. Even being carried in the Ergo and out and about on hikes or at fairs or whatever.. he's cranky and arching his back and closing his eyes to wail. I feel like I'm failing even when I'm trying to do everything 'right'. We have co-slept since he came home and we also bf* (although that took a while to get established, I pumped until he was 3 months old).
> 
> Overall, I feel excited to have read this book and feel I have a lot of insight into helping my son develop, but have I ruined it already?


My DS was born on my EDD and we didn't have a NICU stay, but what you wrote in the bolded is exactly what we experienced! I don't want to discount your struggles, but I would throw out my 2 cents and say that this isn't necessarily related to his start in life. Reading Dr. Sear's 12 Features of High Needs baby is such a wonderful little description and actually makes me laugh out loud, because it is so right on target for us. One of those things where you have to laugh so you don't cry, you know? You haven't ruined anything! DS is only 9 1/2 months now, but I can say that although he is still very much high-needs, he is also one of the happiest, most energetic babies I have ever met (when he isn't being super upset!). Maybe your DS is similar?

Sorry if that was a little OT, but this thread got me interested in reading TCC and I'd love to follow this thread and hear from all of you.


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## cyclamen

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LunaLady*
> 
> Thank you, Michele. I have tried to embrace acceptance of what is and enjoy the here and now and know I can make the changes I want to make in the present. It is hard, though!
> I am wondering how to go about making sure my son doesn't get mixed signals and such from other people who care for him - mainly my parents. The come over frequently to hang out with the baby while I get some stuff done around the house, but they are certainly not going to be being 'CC-y'.


What helps me with that is to remember.... you are mom. You are the center, and right now you are the filter through which your baby perceives the world. We really can't control how others interact with our kids. We can set boundaries, certainly... we can be clear about what we are comfortable with and what we will do if another person chooses not to take that to heart. But we can't control what others do. And in general, I'd say that it's not terribly necessary to control how others interact with our kids. They learn from you and how you respond to things more than anything.

I do want to say, though, that what you're feeling is pretty common, and there might be an element of post-partum anxiety at work - what you said about being worried that "everything is ruined" reminds me of the kind of catastrophic thinking I have when my anxiety/perfectionism is on high alert. Anxiety is what you have when you are feeling unsafe, it's your mind's way of trying to protect you. Sometimes though, anxiety doesn't produce the positive results that will help us. It sounds like you may have had a bit of trauma around his birth, and that can cause you to be extra vigilant in a way that isn't always productive, you know? If you feel disconnected from him somehow, that can be a product of a traumatic experience. When I was experiencing severe anxiety after I had my daughter, counseling really helped me.

I think that TCC is a wonderful concept, and it's easier to put into practice in community, particularly when everyone is doing it the same way. It's harder to do when you are doing it alone, so do be gentle with yourself. But, at the same time, no, nothing is ruined. Your son has a mother who loves him so much, and you are trying, and finding peace in your heart for yourself will give him a positive impact. He learns from you. If you can learn to be gentle with yourself, he will learn that too. This has been the best thing I have learned from parenthood - to be kind to myself, so I can pour out kindness to my family.


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## Linda on the move

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cyclamen*
> 
> I do want to say, though, that what you're feeling is pretty common, and there might be an element of post-partum anxiety at work - what you said about being worried that "everything is ruined" reminds me of the kind of catastrophic thinking I have when my anxiety/perfectionism is on high alert.
> 
> ...*do be gentle with yourself. * But, at the same time, no, nothing is ruined. Your son has a mother who loves him so much, and you are trying, and finding peace in your heart for yourself will give him a positive impact. He learns from you. If you can learn to be gentle with yourself, he will learn that too. This has been the best thing I have learned from parenthood - to be kind to myself, so I can pour out kindness to my family.


when I read your post, I had the same thought about PP stuff. My 2nd child's birth went not as planned in big ways, and in ways that left me feeling disconnected from her. I had the same thoughts "what if all is ruined." She turned 14 a couple of weeks ago. Looking back, I really had no idea how little parenting was behind me, and how much was ahead. She an amazing person, and we are very connected. Yes, the perfect birth would have been a nice start, but heck, she got here in one piece and that's what really counts.

I agree about finding a way to process what you are feeling. Different things work better for different people -- counseling, writing, making art, just being honest with a friend and letting them give you a hug. But find a way to truly let it go --not just to pretend its OK, but to really be OK with what is. What I did might sound hokey, but I used to rock my baby and chant over and over "we are bound together as mother and child. It is a sacred relationship blessed by the earth."

I'm not the perfect mother, and I haven't got everything right. I'm always learning. One of the things I'm modeling for my children is that we can still love and accept and celebrate ourselves and our lives, even though we aren't imperfect.


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## EnviroBecca

Quote:


> What helps me with that is to remember.... you are mom. You are the center, and right now you are the filter through which your baby perceives the world.










My son is 7 years old now. I have worked outside the home since he was 12 weeks old, so I am hardly the obvious ideal CC mama. From age 2 to 5 he went to a very mainstream full-day preschool. Yet I am still his center, his filter, in a big way. He does things and sees things very much the way I do. Sure, I can sometimes see the influences of his peers, his public school, his preschool, the lady who cared for him in her home while I worked when he was a baby, TV...but my influence is at the core. When he's resisted the ways of those other people, it's been because he is sticking up for The Way We Do It, "we" being him and me and his dad. He's very firmly rooted on our Continuum. So it can really work out even if some of the people in your life are less CC.


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## zansmama

Hi CC mamas!
Any of you still around?
I'd love to get your thoughts on tech for older kids and interest in sex 

Ds is 11 now, and has recently acquired for himself an Ipod Touch (through a trade with a friend) I respected the trade, but his usage is tied to either push-ups, yoga, or jumping jacks (dp's idea) He definitely has no more than an hour a day, and usually quite a bit less. Mostly he uses it to text his little buddies or is on instagram, or finding music on Youtube.
I feel like the surrounding culture of his peers has about this level of involvement.

Yesterday he confided in me that he sometimes looks up "sex pictures"...
I maintained a pretty chill attitude, I must say: assuring him that he is not a bad person (poor baby), and that really he is a pretty normal person, and getting ready for puberty.
I discussed the safety angle, and the pervy angle (weeeeird stuff on the internet!), and offered to get him some books about sex... which he may still take me up on.

Any thoughts? 
My goal is: to make sure ds doesn't feel repressed or get any hang-ups: that he sees sex as a normal and natural part of life, for adults.
And obviously to keep him safe until he's old enough to handle this stuff on his own.


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## sillysapling

I'm impressed that he was comfortable enough to confide that in you, I think it's a good sign, and it also sounds like he's asking for help processing this. It sounds like you have a fairly self-aware child and a very good, open relationship.

I think the single most important thing to do is to make it clear that porn is about as accurate to real sex as Harry Potter is to schools. It's fantasy. The people in it are actors reading a script. Very, very rarely does it represent an accurate depiction of a healthy sexual relationship. As you said, that doesn't make him a bad person for looking at it, but he does need to understand that this is not an accurate representation of sex. There are people who don't realize this, and I imagine a child would be particularly vulnerable to confusion.

I agree that he needs a resource for accurate information about sex. Even if he doesn't take you up on it, I don't think it's out of line to get an age-appropriate book and just give it to him, letting him know that you saw it and remembered what you'd talked about before and that he's welcome to ask you anything. Or you could find a good website for pre-teens and mention it to him.

I know you want to teach him sex is for adults, but teens and pre-teens do have sex. Make sure he knows about safe sex (and that birth control isn't infallible and he's still responsible for any babies even if he used a condom- way too many guys seem to ignore that). If he makes the mistake to have sex before he's ready- you don't want him to _also _make the mistake of getting an STI or unwanted pregnancy. Try to help him understand the difference between physical readiness (his body being able to get an erection and achieve orgasm) and emotional readiness and the complex emotions that sex can involve.

It's very normal for an 11 year old to start experiencing sexual attraction. There's nothing inherently wrong with looking at porn, but it can be come an addiction and there is a _very_ real risk if someone gets the idea that it's accurate. 
I don't know when kids are ready to handle porn. Some kids become sexually active at 11 (I'm not suggesting you encourage this). I suppose it depends on why he's seeking it out. If he's confused about sex and sexuality and is looking for answers- then you obviously want to give him a better place to get those answers. If he's looking at them because he finds them sexually arousing, well, he may be ready.

Whether or not you want to block it is your call. I would be careful about how you do so, definitely be upfront with him and involve him in the discussion about whether or not he's ready for it.

Oh, also, be careful on how you frame the "pervy" angle. You never know what fetishes/kinks your son may turn out to have, and you don't want to make him ashamed of them. Again, just talk about how porn is _fantasy_ and that the more extreme it is, the less realistic it is.


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## zansmama

sillysapling said:


> I'm impressed that he was comfortable enough to confide that in you, I think it's a good sign, and it also sounds like he's asking for help processing this. It sounds like you have a fairly self-aware child and a very good, open relationship.
> 
> I think the single most important thing to do is to make it clear that porn is about as accurate to real sex as Harry Potter is to schools. It's fantasy. The people in it are actors reading a script. Very, very rarely does it represent an accurate depiction of a healthy sexual relationship. As you said, that doesn't make him a bad person for looking at it, but he does need to understand that this is not an accurate representation of sex. There are people who don't realize this, and I imagine a child would be particularly vulnerable to confusion.
> 
> I agree that he needs a resource for accurate information about sex. Even if he doesn't take you up on it, I don't think it's out of line to get an age-appropriate book and just give it to him, letting him know that you saw it and remembered what you'd talked about before and that he's welcome to ask you anything. Or you could find a good website for pre-teens and mention it to him.
> 
> I know you want to teach him sex is for adults, but teens and pre-teens do have sex. Make sure he knows about safe sex (and that birth control isn't infallible and he's still responsible for any babies even if he used a condom- way too many guys seem to ignore that). If he makes the mistake to have sex before he's ready- you don't want him to _also _make the mistake of getting an STI or unwanted pregnancy. Try to help him understand the difference between physical readiness (his body being able to get an erection and achieve orgasm) and emotional readiness and the complex emotions that sex can involve.
> 
> It's very normal for an 11 year old to start experiencing sexual attraction. There's nothing inherently wrong with looking at porn, but it can be come an addiction and there is a _very_ real risk if someone gets the idea that it's accurate.
> I don't know when kids are ready to handle porn. Some kids become sexually active at 11 (I'm not suggesting you encourage this). I suppose it depends on why he's seeking it out. If he's confused about sex and sexuality and is looking for answers- then you obviously want to give him a better place to get those answers. If he's looking at them because he finds them sexually arousing, well, he may be ready.
> 
> Whether or not you want to block it is your call. I would be careful about how you do so, definitely be upfront with him and involve him in the discussion about whether or not he's ready for it.
> 
> Oh, also, be careful on how you frame the "pervy" angle. You never know what fetishes/kinks your son may turn out to have, and you don't want to make him ashamed of them. Again, just talk about how porn is _fantasy_ and that the more extreme it is, the less realistic it is.


Hi sillysapling: thanks for the thoughtful response!!
I think we see things in a similar way 
So far, I have restricted his Ipod to "under 17"... not as a punishment, but, as I explained to him, so he won't have to deal with things he may not be ready for.
I feel like the fact that he felt disturbed enough to bring it up with his mom (!), and his complete lack of development, or sexual interest in daily life, indicated that he's not quite ready. For instance, we are a very nudey family, as so far he has not indicated any discomfort with that. (the plan has always been to respect his feelings if he does indicate discomfort.)

He has had sex at at school, and we have discussed safety and stuff before, so I feel pretty confident about that.


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## Kayleigh Okpych

*10 month old daughter super attached to me*

Hello, not sure if anyone still reads this thread...
But my daughter is almost 10 months old and is super clingy to only me, she will not let anyone else hold her for like a minute at the very most if she can see me. She won't even let her own dad hold her for very long unless i'm out of the room. 
I definitely feel like this is due to the fact that I have pretty much constantly held her since she was born until lately now that she can sit and crawl on her own, but even still, I can't really get up or leave the room usually without her getting upset. She's extremely attached to me. I feel like this is pretty normal considering the situation, but her dad is kind of upset that she clings to me every time he asks her if he can hold her. Anybody have a similar situation or any advice? Thank you!


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## katelove

It's totally normal  This article might help http://www.pinkymckay.com/go-away-i-only-want-mummy-or-daddy-when-your-child-prefers-one-parent/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## zansmama

Hi CC tribe! 
I would love to hear from you guys how it's going in the teen years.
Ds is 15 now, and pretty independent, mostly handling his life on his own, thpugh he consults us about decisions, and certainly meals are a family affair.
He's got his head on pretty straight as far as school and general matters... he does indicate that he feels our home as very separate and "different" from society in general... at this time, he is experiencing this as negative, but I hope one day he will appreciate what we have given him: a holistic, evolutionarily- appropriate childhood.
It is a bit hard: I feel like our society artificially extends childhood, and this boy is ready to launch as an individual in his own right, but there is no place for that. So we live somewhat as roommates, though we have daily moments of family connection, and give guidance if asked, or occasionally if not asked...
Off the top of my head, that's what I can say... anyone else?


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