# 18 Month old, discipline



## AustinMom (Jul 16, 2008)

So, some of you may think, he's still a baby, don't discipline, well, you don't know my 18 mo. He's not a hellian like some kids I know, he's really a great kid. He's EXTREMELY smart, and right now, he is at the stage where he is testing us on how far his boundaries are. Let's skip back about 5 mo or so, he used to pick up ALL his toys, put them where they go, etc, and never throw any fits about anything. Now, when we ask him to pick up his blocks, or help us pick up his blocks, he just kinda laughs and thinks it's funny, but not in the way, of "oh, this is a game, let's pick up the blocks to win" More in the "oh I don't have to do what you ask" kind of way. I know he understands me, I know he does. We are not spankers, and our Ped recommended time out, 1 min per year of age. Yes, I think this will work, it will take time, and a few time outs under our belt, but he'll get it.

My question is, where do I put him? In the corner? On a chair? on a rug/mat? Have any of you had to discipline a younger toddler?

It's really important to us that we are consistent and teach him responsibility, yes, even at this age, if he learns it now, it's more likely to become a way of life and i don't plan on reteaching this at age 5, 10, 15, etc. If he gets it now, it will be habit by then.

Thoughts?


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Moved to Gentle Discipline


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Or it could become a huge fight to get him to go to the time out and you end up with more conflicts because of using time outs than you would've dealt with by other means.

My take on it is, sure they'll sometimes do what you want, but you can't require that they will.

Personally, I just start cleaning up. Anything that I don't want to clean up alone, goes away. We have a set of 100 blocks, about 20 are actually on her toy shelf.

Really, though unless the toy would be a tripping hazard, I'll just chase her around the apartment for a minute or two (or do so after the toy's clean enough to be safe). Frequently that makes her agreeable to a suggestion to go back and clean up, and I can generally move out of place things to their correct room as we lap around. On occasion, it results in her stopping running and starting to put toys away without me mentioning it.

I've only seen time outs used on older toddlers, and it looks like a huge PITA and would be worse with a younger toddler who was set on experimenting with running away.


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

If I were to do this I would put him where ever I could comfortably and safely hold him there because he is not going to sit there any more than he is going to put up his blocks at 18 months old.

I understand that you want to start young and instill values and good habits. I feel the same. Model, model, model. If he is going through a stage of not wanting to pick up toys then you model it for him.
You can say oh we always pick up our blocks when we are through because it hurts to step on block. Show him what would happen if you stepped on a block and hurt your foot and cried. Act it out, fall down, clutching your foot crying. Then start singing the clean up song. Hand him a block and say can you throw it into the bucket? I bet you can! Or you could help him do it by using the hand over hand method. He will still be involved even if he isn't choosing to do it himself.
Talk about your emotions, too. Something like Oh, when you help mommy it makes me so happy. Or when he doesn't help it makes you sad because you have to do it all by yourself.
I just think that this is more effective than a time out at this age even if he is a clever little guy. How is he going to connect having to sit somewhere for a minute, to not picking up his blocks? The way they learn is by seeing others doing it, whatever "it" is. My dd 27 months and she is copying every thing she sees us do. Don't worry. He will imitate you more and more. Not trying to be harsh, just another perspective you can consider it or not. I hope you find what works for you both.


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## AustinMom (Jul 16, 2008)

Ok, so I'm so glad that I tried the time out before I read y'all responses. Let me clarify, the way he learned to pick up is by us modeling, making it a game, helping him, using emotions, reasoning, habit, etc. He got that at around 12 mo. And he did it every time with no fuss, and no telling him a thousand times. I feel that most of the "teaching" we do as parents, like potty training, eating veggies, picking up toys, etc should go without discipline. It's when they don't do those things after they have learned them, that we do bring out discipline, and never in a harsh way.

He get's what he is supposed to do, he knows it, and doesn't do it anyway. That to me, needs to be the habit broken as soon as it starts.

Anyway, I did the time out, and yes, he sat in the spot (for a whole min or so). When we got up, I told him, it's time to pick up your blocks together now. When he didn't do it, he went back to time out for a min. It took about 4 tries (a total of 4 min or so in time out) and he got it. The last time, I said it again, "okay, it's time to pick up your blocks now" And he did. I absolutely think he correlated the two. If I don't pick up the blocks, I have to go sit in this boring spot.

I don't think he is too young, everyone told me that with potty training too, but trust me, he gets it. I think that the younger they are (as long as they can understand what you are saying) the more wanting to please they are.

It worked for me.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Time out usually does work, but are you sure this is the method you want to use?

I'm a FIRM believer that at 18 months, unless you've been hard on control parenting (do as I say, or else), your child isn't testing you. He's merely doing things because he finds them amusing.

Something else I want to comment on, is that discipline does not mean punishment. There are many ways to discipline your child without using punishment. 18 months is a common age where children start to develop their independence, and this means not always following orders.

Have you read any books on gentle discipline? Some of my favorites are "The Science of Parenting" (ALL parents should read this book, whatever your style), "Unconditional Parenting" and "Punished by Rewards" (both by Alfie Kohn), "Playful Parenting" (might be a good one for you), "Happiest Toddler on the Block", and "The Natural Child" (one of my personal favorites).

They're never too young to learn (and speaking of potty training, my daughter has been using her potty since 4 months old), but I just want to caution you about the difference between teaching to find the reward within the task, or teaching to do something because they want to please you.

You might also be interested to google "time-in vs time-out". There's been a lot of talk (and a lot of eye opening) on this forum about it lately.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

the fact that one of the signs of potty readiness is a desire to please parents really creeps me out.

y'know the real reason the general recommendation is to wait on potty training? To avoid abuse cases. Get the people who'd yell and shame to hold off until the kid does it alone.

anyway, huge







to sgmom.


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## boheime (Oct 25, 2005)

What is your ultimate goal? There are many ways to help a person learn. Punishment teaches one thing - the person administering the punishment has the power. It doesn't help the child learn to do something differently.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 







the fact that one of the signs of potty readiness is a desire to please parents really creeps me out.

y'know the real reason the general recommendation is to wait on potty training? To avoid abuse cases. Get the people who'd yell and shame to hold off until the kid does it alone.

Off topic again (sorry, but I wanted to add to this)...

Waiting until your child shows signs of readiness, also gives the child a responsibility that it's not ready for. 1. Asking if they need to go or not (the answer is almost always a no, followed by wet pants), then giving them the option (or in most cases, the demand) of choosing to do it in a toilet (which is often quite scary for a kid who's been conditioned to use diapers it's whole life).

The other reason why it's recommended to wait, is because it's HIGHLY endorsed by Pampers. Diaper companies make a CRAZY amount of money if we wait until our children are "ready". And by this time, we usually have to spend even more money on rewards (musical potties, sticker charts, candy, etc) to encourage them to go. And when they do go, we fill them with praise like it was some massive accomplishment that they pee'd in a potty.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Behaviorism works in the moment. And generally works quite quickly. That's part of why spanking and reward systems are both so popular. They aren't really discipline though.

Some times you do have to do what works in the moment (not hitting, obviously!, but things like just carrying the kid to the car when you have to get home) but it shouldn't be the default option.


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

The OP's original question was where should I put my ds for time-outs. She had already decided that this is the route she wants to take.
OP have you read many of the threads on the Gentle Discipline forum? I lurk here quite a bit and I can't remember any threads in support of time-outs for young toddlers. In fact, it seems like most on here view it as a punishment that is not a logical consequence for unwanted behaviors, even for older toddlers. I'm just sayin', you may not get the support you are looking for here. Maybe on the toddler forum you may find more who implement time-outs.
I just started taking my dd to her room when she hits me out of anger. I tell her that she cannot be around me if she's going to hurt me. I escort her to her bed and tell her that when she's ready to be gentle with mama she can come out. I don't make her stay for any certain time. She usually comes out within a minute saying sorry mama. I say that I forgive her and we move on. She is 27 months now, and some may say this isn't gentle, but I'm at a loss for what to do. Not to get off topic, but I'm just sayin' I haven't posted that question here because I don't think most mom's do this on this forum.
Oh I forgot, I did do some time outs in her pack and play when she was about 19 months for pinching me constantly. I was so desperate to try something. It didn't work. She would get time outs and pinch me immediately afterward. One day she got 15 time outs. I did it for one week, and gave up. I even tried spanking. It didn't work and I felt like an abusive mother.
In the end, they just go through these phases that require some maturity to grow out of, along with some loving redirection and explanation and modeling.


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## junipermoon (Nov 19, 2008)

op just bc he helped you pick up before and listened etc without issue doesn't mean he always will or that it would be good for him to.

he has to negotiate a sense of himself as an autonomous agent right now, at least to some extent--that is a task of life.

he'll probably shift back and forth between cooperative and not so much many times in the course of his development.

this is not a life threatening issue or an issue where someone's emotional or physical well being is at issue...so i might be much more flexible. i would try to negotiate or use choices or talk about why I am picking up the blocks (for safety, etc) before more playtime rather than doing time out. i agree with you that once he learns to pick up of his own accord etc he won't need to relearn it, but i think developmentally that does come later, way way later.


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermoon* 
op just bc he helped you pick up before and listened etc without issue doesn't mean he always will or that it would be good for him to.

he has to negotiate a sense of himself as an autonomous agent right now, at least to some extent--that is a task of life.

he'll probably shift back and forth between cooperative and not so much many times in the course of his development.

this is not a life threatening issue or an issue where someone's emotional or physical well being is at issue...so i might be much more flexible. i would try to negotiate or use choices or talk about why I am picking up the blocks (for safety, etc) before more playtime rather than doing time out. i agree with you that once he learns to pick up of his own accord etc he won't need to relearn it, but i think developmentally that does come later, way way later.

very well said...I couldn't put it into words
My dd is generally very helpful and wants to do things with me, chores and such. Then there are times she yells, NO! It sort of surprises me. I say to her, you can tell mama No, thank you with out yelling. Then she does this. She says No, thank you mama, no wipe mouth. Then I say, you don't want me to wipe your mouth? Anyway, we have this little conversation about it. Then I give her a mirror and show her all the food on her face. Hand her a cloth and she wipes it herself.
What juniper said. This is really a task of life that they begin to learn to be their own person, make their own decisions. I stopped being SO AFRAID that she's defying me! How dare she defy ME!? Her source?! I brought her into this world!... kind of thinking that is ingrained in me.
The reality is that she will mature and eventually use a napkin consistently because that is what we do in our family. We use napkins. She won't be 12 with food from ear to ear because she defied me, and I 'let' her defy me, when I was wiping her mouth.
I have discovered that she responds very well to little conversations helping her to do what is needed for all of our sake. When she is mean to other children I have a quiet talk with her. She immediately goes to make it right with the other kid. Honestly, I am always shocked that she listens and tries to do the right thing. I think the reason is because I don't do time outs. I do a time in with little conversations, unless she's melting down. Then I just wait it out.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
The OP's original question was where should I put my ds for time-outs. She had already decided that this is the route she wants to take.

Not necessarily, it was the route suggested by her pediatrician and a route that she addressed in the context of not spanking. There's much more to gentle discipline than merely not hitting. Time outs are sort of an easy out for people who haven't explored other options.

Plus, even if, as seems to be the case from her follow up post, she had settled on the time out route, the thread is still going to be read by more people than just the OP and the people who respond. For instance, other moms of 18 month olds with questions about discipline might be attracted to this thread. Hence why the responses focus on appropriate discipline for an 18 month old.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)




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## petey44 (Nov 6, 2008)

Correlation does not imply causation. Just because he decided to pick up the toys after 4 tries in time-out does not mean that it was the time-out that made up his mind. Equally likely is that if you had asked him to pick up, not put him in time-out, but allowed several minutes to pass, he would have picked up anyway.
I believe that kids have to internalize reasons for good behaviors. You don't want a kid who picks up only because he doesn't want a punishment, or because he does want a reward. At 18 months, there's such a drive coming from within for independence. I think that's a good thing, and should be encouraged as much as possible. If you've modeled, etc, etc, then he obviously knows how to clean up. He just wants to do it on his own time, as his way of finding out that he can exert his own will and control his own environment a bit.
Anyway, back to my original point- I would not be confident in saying that the time-out made him pick up. I think just TIME made him pick up.


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Sometimes I have a love/hate relationship with forums, or should I just say the written word.
It seems what I wrote was misunderstood. I am always in a hurry and leave out some meaning (like now, my dd is demanding my attention).
In my original post, I tried to answer the op's question, but also addressed what I think is better than time outs.
She had already decided to do/try time outs, and I was trying to recognize the op's decision and not undermine it with 'my way', or sound judgmental.

I have tried various things, time outs and spankings, both of which I found to be too harsh for my liking. I realize gentle discipline is really on a spectrum. To some time outs are the most gentle and to others time outs are verging on neglect.
Anyway, I realize that this thread can hopefully help others and I am here because I need help. Sometimes I get frustrated with my dd and raise my hand to swat her bum and stop in mid swing. I still need a lot of help and ideas. So, continue on with the ideas ladies. My point in my last post was to let the op know that we were not trying to gang up on her decision to try time outs, but that she might find more support for this method on another board.
Hope that clears up things.


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## AustinMom (Jul 16, 2008)

Let me clarify again, I am not trying to teach my son to pick up his toys, he has that down. He does that regularly without being asked because he understands through habit and me leading by example, that is what you do. When you are finished with something, you put it back where it goes. What he is doing now is different. He is intentionally not doing something I am asking him to do. I know my kid, and I know that he understand what I am saying, what he needs to do, but he is choosing not to in a way of seeing how far he can go and where his boundaries are. I'm feel I'm simply reinstating where those boundaries are. I'm not trying to be controlling and "make" him do something out of dominance, I'm setting where things are ok, and where they are not. There are plenty of times where I ask him if he wants to do something and he says no, and I say OK, and we move on.

I don't think the time out was traumatizing in any way. And on the note on potty training and abuse, I'm am very much so hoping I am missunderstaning your comment, please please please clarify. I myself am an abuse victim, not from my parents, and I was potty trained on my "lead". I don't think they go hand in hand. And signs of readiness, to me, he presented ALL ALL ALL the signs except for saying "I want to go potty in the potty". I didn't think that was needed. I have NEVER believed that potty training should include discipline. It should be positive and empowering for the child. That's what we did. There was never any yelling, or shaming, or guilt. I think the guiltiest he felt was when he had an accident, and I simply said, (calmly) we go potty in the potty, not in our pants. Our potties belong here (and point to potty).

I would love to hear other ways to reinstate boundaries with kids that don't involve time outs. And no, it wasn't "time" that ended up being the reason he picked up his block, it was a total of 4 MIN before he did it. 4 MIN, not 4 HOURS. I fully believe he understood and does understand.

Any advise on the topic I am looking for would be great, which is not, how do you teach a kid to do something, I got that, he got that, it's HOW DO YOU TEACH A KID WHEN HE IS CROSSING THE LINE. It's not okay, to not listen to me, and it's not okay for him to take things out and leave them out and not help pick them up when he is done. We all have a responsibility in this family.

PS, this post was MOVED TO GENTLE DISCIPLINE, SORRY IF IT'S IN THE WRONG PLACE. Some of the responses kinda struck a nerve with me, and I feel like some of the posters replied without knowing the situation or what it was I was asking, I apologize if I sound harsh or if I was unclear in my OP.


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## Freud (Jan 21, 2008)

I think the problem with disciplining this way is that the child learns to do things on your terms and for your reasons, instead of on their terms for their reasons. Sure, time outs may work in the moment, but the child will learn to do things only because you said so and not because he's learned that its the right thing to do or because it makes HIM feel good for doing it. Time outs tend to work in the beginning and then their effect tapers off, because, among other things, the child learns that he can just not go to the time out spot. And the child doesn't learn that doing certain things, like cleaning up his blocks, can be a pleasurable experience for him, on his own terms. The thing about timeouts is that it makes the motivation to do things external instead of internal, which is not very helpful in the grand scheme of things.

I think what the previous posters have mentioned ARE ways to teach children how to do what is expected of them. Clearly, he knows how to physically put his toys away in the right spots after he's done playing with them. By not cleaning up, he's asserting his will. This shouldn't be punished or disciplined at this age. He does not NEED to do whatever you say, because he is a person in his own right. If you continue to model the behavior, help him clean up, give him a choice about it (clean up now or clean up later) then he will eventually do the cleaning of his own free will and it will make him feel good.


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## BlueMonday (Aug 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AustinMom* 
Any advise on the topic I am looking for would be great, which is not, how do you teach a kid to do something, I got that, he got that, it's HOW DO YOU TEACH A KID WHEN HE IS CROSSING THE LINE. It's not okay, to not listen to me, and it's not okay for him to take things out and leave them out and not help pick them up when he is done. We all have a responsibility in this family.

Subbing for ideas...

I agree with you that small people are family members too and so must learn to help out. I think the heart of AP and gentle discipline is to assign children respect and so, personally, I need to see a certain degree of willingness to cooperate and treat me with reciprocal respect.

I think the early responses were accurate, advising to MODEL appropriate behavior. My DD is crazy stubborn and must come to every little thing on her own terms...seeing as how she gets it from me, we've already butted heads a few times! When she was about 18mo, she started running away from me on the street, in the playground, stores, everywhere. I was at the end of my pregnancy and often physically couldn't run after her. This being a huge safety issue demanding immediate resolution, the only thing to do was pack her into stroller or carrier. No amount of yelling, reverse psychology, floor (or pavement) play would keep her from tearing off on her own. In the end, I had to wait it out as a phase and keep her buckled in when all her friends were walking around the neighborhood. Once I was again able to model pedestrian safety and orchestrate run run run stop games, she came around and learned to walk with me. But I still don't fully trust her to stay out of the street and stop at curbs, so she's never out of my reach and usually has to hold my hand.

Sorry for the tangent, but my point is that some things are out of our control with these little ones. If blocks aren't getting picked up and your demonstrating picking up blocks isn't working, then perhaps blocks go on a shelf until he asks for them again. Time out the blocks, not the child?

BTW, I loved historical fiction as a kid. As a mom I have this picture in my head of Laura Ingalls Wilder's little sister being taken to task for whining (like asking for something again after being denied)...a stern "No" stopped her in her tracks, had her hanging her head and the older girls sobered in the face of the toddler being taught to "mind". So what am I missing????!


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AustinMom* 
Any advise on the topic I am looking for would be great, which is not, how do you teach a kid to do something, I got that, he got that, it's HOW DO YOU TEACH A KID WHEN HE IS CROSSING THE LINE. It's not okay, to not listen to me, and it's not okay for him to take things out and leave them out and not help pick them up when he is done. We all have a responsibility in this family.

I'm confused. Are you looking for a quick answer? There were some fantastic suggestions above from other members. And I gave you a list of books you could check out, and even suggested that you google time-in vs time out (which I don't think you did).

Gentle parenting (at least in my house) has everything to do with teaching, and nothing to do with punishing, or preventing your kid from crossing any lines, because there are no lines to cross at this age. We set boundaries, yes, and we teach where those boundaries are. But crossing the line is something that should only be applied to older children who already know better. And only then should a more serious parenting style be considered (whatever that may be). Autonomy is a very important part of child development and our children need to feel free (and even encouraged) to develop a sense of self. Even if that means not always listening to you, or leaving his things out and not putting them back. To expect that type of responsibility from a child of such a young age is rather unfair to the child, in my opinion.

While I myself believe that the use of time out with young children is not only counter productive to your long term goals, but is also emotionally stressful on a child who doesn't understand and is unable to communicate how he's feeling, I don't think anyone is saying that the use of time-out is traumatizing. Just that it may not be the best solution for you to obtain your goal, at this particular stage in your son's life. If it works for you, and you want to keep using it, then that's your choice. But we're all here to help you, in offering you different ways to help you obtain your goal of getting your message across, without using time-out. Was that not your request?

I personally, find it mildly offensive to give you advice that I believe WILL help you find your answers, only to read your replies of dissatisfaction to the replies you've received, not just from myself but from others who are genuinely trying to help you.

I don't mean to insult when I say this, but if a quick answer is what you're looking for, gentle parenting is probably not the best place to look for it. It's very easy to just stick your kid in the corner for not listening to you, but to get down to their level and really understand and communicate where the problem is coming from (then work together to solve it) is a whole different ballpark.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

PS. Please don't take offense to this, but I'm genuinely curious why you feel that it's not okay for him to not listen to you, or take things out and not help to put them back.

Please try to remember that he's only 18 months and is learning something new (or several something new's) every day. What he learns today, he might forget tomorrow. We need to teach, then re-teach, and continue teaching until they UNDERSTAND, and no longer "forget". He's doesn't know defiance. And children of this age simply aren't capable of "testing us". They merely act because it amuses them. Subordination is something they know NOTHING about.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

This site has some really great articles that you might find helpful. (click on articles)

www.naturalchild.org

Edited to add: There are SO many on this site. Here's one to start... I'll add more as I find any that might help you further. If you're interested.

The case against time out.
http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/peter_haiman.html

"Toddlers: To tame or to trust" is also a good one (though it has little to do with your original post).


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AustinMom* 
*So, some of you may think, he's still a baby, don't discipline, well, you don't know my 18 mo.* He's not a hellian like some kids I know, he's really a great kid. He's EXTREMELY smart, and right now, he is at the stage where he is testing us on how far his boundaries are. Let's skip back about 5 mo or so, he used to pick up ALL his toys, put them where they go, etc, and never throw any fits about anything. Now, when we ask him to pick up his blocks, or help us pick up his blocks, he just kinda laughs and thinks it's funny, but not in the way, of "oh, this is a game, let's pick up the blocks to win" *More in the "oh I don't have to do what you ask" kind of way. I know he understands me, I know he does.* We are not spankers, and our Ped recommended time out, 1 min per year of age. *Yes, I think this will work, it will take time, and a few time outs under our belt, but he'll get it.*

*My question is, where do I put him? In the corner? On a chair? on a rug/mat? Have any of you had to discipline a younger toddler?*

*It's really important to us that we are consistent and teach him responsibility,* yes, even at this age, if he learns it now, it's more likely to become a way of life and i don't plan on reteaching this at age 5, 10, 15, etc. If he gets it now, it will be habit by then.

Thoughts?


I quoted your OP and bolded some things that I want to talk about. I wish you could hear my tone of voice because I don't want this to come out wrong. I know you came here for the purpose of talking about your decision to implement time-outs to address what you feel is your son crossing the line with you. You feel that he knows better, but is crossing the boundaries. You want to break this habit so that when he is older he will not do it anymore.
Honestly, I would be surprised if you find anyone on this forum who will say that this is a good method for an 18 month old. Even I, who admitted to trying these things, have had a change in heart. Your child is not purposely, maliciously defying your wishes. Yes, I can agree that he knows how to put blocks up. Now he is learning how to negotiate. He would like to see if he could make up his own mind on how and when to put blocks up. This is how they develop into their own little individual.
By forcing him to sit somewhere, because you are bigger and stronger, in order to force him to put the blocks up on your demand, you are placing an external force on him. Yes, this works if your goal is to make him do it. You can do it this way.
However, if you want him to have and internal motivation to take care of his blocks, sheer force is not the way. Loving cooperation, help, little talks about the reason we put up blocks, giving in a little to show him that you have mercy and compassion for his desires, letting it go for a while and revisiting it will go a long way internally.
I know you said you did this already and he got it. But, I am telling you that he is in a different place. He is in the *I want to do it my way* phase. He will eventually be in the *I want to do it all by my self* phase. I'm not sure what phase is next.
Yes, he got how to put up blocks. Now you want him to learn how to be a helpful, loving, cooperative member of your family. Okay, so continue to show him what it LOOKS like to be a helpful, loving, cooperative member of your family by being just that, all the time. Continue teaching him by being that example of cooperativeness. There is a sweet harmony that will develop between you by showing him a give and take environment. An environment that recognizes that he is a person and his wants matter, too. You could try saying, Oh, your not ready to put up your blocks, yet? Let's eat our snack and then put up blocks. Use your words, not your force to teach him.

I bolded the first sentence of your post because I wanted to say that it seems that you came here on the defense. You said we shouldn't tell you not to discipline (you should at least look into the difference between discipline and punishment/rewards) your son because even though he is young, we don't know him like you know him. In your original post you merely asked where/how you should put him in time-out. At the end you did ask for thoughts, but thoughts on what, I am not sure. I am assuming you just wanted thoughts on where/how to put your son in time-out since you stated that you believe this will work with a little time.

What I, and I think others, are asking you to consider is a complete change of your thinking in what is developmentally appropriate for your 18 month old son. Few of us here are experts, but we have been practicing the things we are speaking of and finding it to be a wonderful, harmonious yet sometimes exhausting (at least for me) to practice. My child is getting 'it' internally and not because I am making her do things. She is helpful, and cooperative most of the time when I take the time to explain things to her. And I give her lots of space to be her own person.

In your subsequent posts you were bothered by the responses because you came here on the defense. Please let your guard down a little and really hear what we are saying.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I've been thinking about this thread a bit as I've been interacting with my 17.5 month old.

What happens if you just play with something else for a minute and then ask him to pick up the blocks? How many times does it take before he picks them up?

ETA: Oh, dear, hadn't realized the turn the thread had taken.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

An 18-month-old is a walking baby. The question isn't how to get an 18-month-old to do something consistently, because he wont' at that age. He simply won't, for no other reason than that he's still a baby.

So, instead of "how to get him to do this", the question is really what are you going to do when he inevitably doesn't pick up after himself.

I would say modeling and setting up a habit by doing it with him regularly will do more than punish, and keep your relationship that of people on the same team rather than adversaries.

What do you think he's learning when he's in time out? "When my mom gets mad, I get put here by myself." At 18 months, he only has a vague idea of any connection between time out and picking up.

At some point he'll be afraid of doing anything to upset you, which will make him outwardly more obedient. But there are always unintended consequences.


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## kiwiva (Apr 17, 2006)

I don't do time out. I go more towards the UP end of things. Time out never made sense to me, from seeing it used on kids of all ages. But I distinctly remember thinking when DD was like 21 mos, about how ridiculous that would be for her. So I have no advice on where to put the "naughty spot."

A couple things to consider. I think most of parenting issues, especially with discipline (I think of it in terms of teaching not punishing) are not now or never. It is not the case where if you don't put down a hard line right now with your 18 month old about picking up his toys, at 5 and 10 you will still be fighting this battle. He always put his toys away before bc that was a cool fun thing for him to do. Now not so fun. So model and get him to help. One thing about toddlers is if you help them help they often will. Hand him a toy and he'll put it away. Institute a clean up song or something so there will be a cue for him to get going along with you. It will be a long time before he is developmentally ready to put all his toys away on his own.

I also think when we attribute adult motivations to their actions, it puts us in an adversarial stance. "He knows, and he's doing this on purpose to me" makes us angry and then we want to show them who's boss. This just leads to power struggles. If we think, "Ah the joys of toddler behavior" it is easier to cope with bc we don't get agitated about it.

Something I read when DD was little stuck with me. However smart you think they are based on their verbal ability and understanding, they probably are less capable than you think they are. We have a tendency to attribute a lot of adult motivations to little ones when they are good talkers especially. I think Happiest Toddler on the Block was helpful for me in thinking about toddler behavior and motivation.

I'd also recommend How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk. He's younger than most of the examples will apply to, I think, but I found it to be invaluable for how I think about issues. It's all about cooperation and empowering kids to get to their own decisions (he's 18 mos too early for that but it may help).

HTH.


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## AustinMom (Jul 16, 2008)

I'm trying to put down my defenses, but I still feel like some don't understand what I am asking.

He understands to pick up his things when he is done. And he does that, it's fun for him, and we do sing, and dance, and make it a game. We get tons of praise and hugs and kisses when done, etc. So I feel that I have gotten responses on how to teach how to pick up and to pick up, but we have already done that. How do I teach him gently to do what I see fit at the moment even if he doesn't understand why. I don't have the "You do it now or else...." mentality. We usually a go all day with toys everywhere, and when bed time comes, it's time to pick up a little, never all, because that's impossible LOL! So anyway, yes, he very much so understands to pick up when he is done. And when I ask him to do something, like put this over there for me baby, or can you put your blocks in the bag? etc, he looks at me and smiles, and walks away. I am sure that he fully understands what I am asking, and not doing it anyway. He it TOTALLY capable. I judge his capabilities not on speech, but what I know he is capable of. It's not how to get a kid to do something consistently, but to aid further understanding, he does do things consistently all the time.

"PS. Please don't take offense to this, but I'm genuinely curious why you feel that it's not okay for him to not listen to you, or take things out and not help to put them back."
I understand one want them to be their own person. I agree whole heartedly. I also know that there are somethings he can't do because I say so. When I ask him to do something, it's not, okay, I'll do it when I feel like it (on some things). Trust me, he's his own person if I ever saw it in a kid. I feel that this is a gentle way of disciplining him I never yell, I am never "mad and put him in the corner". He does what I say because some things are dangerous, or irresponsible, etc. And as he may be too young to understand why they are dangerous, etc., he is old enough to understand, mom asked me to not do ______so I'm not going to do it. And yes, I do think this is something I would want him to carry through his teen years. I'm don't feel at all that I am trying to dominate him or not let him be his own person. It's not like I'm telling him he can't get a tattoo, I'm trying to tell him, when I say it's time to clean up, it is.

No, I have not read any of those books, I would love to, and plan on it.

In the end, I see the view of some of y'all in he's too young to test limits, and I have to fully disagree. Maybe my son is super duper advanced,? lol, I don't think so, he's not doing calculus!!!


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Even if your son is super advanced, he still IS a baby and he's really NOT being defiant or manipulative. My almost 18 month old sometimes picks up the toys and sometimes won't. He "gets" it but he also is finding his independence and that is SO much more important right now than doing every thing I say.

I think PP's have given you wonderful advice but in the end you will do what you choose for your child. Time outs seem useless to me but YMMV. I do think the time in version is okay and has some value.


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

So, your question is, How do you make him obey you, every time? You want him to do what you ask every single time, no ifs ands or buts (especially if you know he knows how to do the thing you are asking of him). Okay, that is fine. You have very high expectations and that is fine.

*The answer is that you do it the same way you have been doing it all along.* Modeling, dancing, singing, making it fun, thinking out of the box, modeling AGAIN, giving reasons AGAIN, letting natural consequences teach him lessons, maybe implement some logical consequences, explaining AGAIN, modeling AGAIN.

Check with any mom of teenagers, even the strictest most punishing mom will tell you that they have to repeat, repeat, repeat. Your coat doesn't go there, pick up your shoes, your back pack goes to your room, on and on.

Do you want to repeat time outs over and over and over.
Or, do you want to repeat modeling, dancing, singing, standing on your head, etc.

Either way you have to repeat it. No kid can do what you are expecting every single time, especially an 18 month old.

A friend of mine has a super smart 4 yr. old. This child can reason and negotiate like nobody's business. Her method for unwanted behavior is time outs. The kid is constantly in time out. It's to the point that it doesn't mean much. It's just not a battle worth fighting in my opinion. It doesn't seem like a fun way to go through life for the parent or the kid.

On the practical side, the scenario of him needing to clean up at least a little before bed. Maybe try a different time. By bedtime, I am so ready for dd to go to sleep and so is she. Cooperation and patience have been worn very thin by the end of the day. You could choose a different time in the day where he and you are in your best state of mind for the clean up.


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Sorry, one last thing I forgot to say.

If you want time-outs to have an impact, reserve them for things like hitting, biting, kicking, screaming, pinching, pushing, etc. Antisocial behaviors is where the child needs a little break to regroup. If you start using your time outs for not obeying you, what will you do when he starts doing some of the aforementioned behaviors? Time outs won't have much of an impact anymore.

I look at it the same way as the reason I reserved the word 'NO'. I only use it in emergency situations.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AustinMom* 
He understands to pick up his things when he is done. And he does that, it's fun for him, and we do sing, and dance, and make it a game. We get tons of praise and hugs and kisses when done, etc. So I feel that I have gotten responses on how to teach how to pick up and to pick up, but we have already done that.

Perhaps this is part of your problem? I have never, not once, given my daughter praise and hugs/kisses when she does something I ask, because I want the task to be self rewarding. I do NOT want her simply complying to my request. I show a lot of appreciation for her help, but I never praise. Perhaps when your son is "not in the mood" to do as you ask, it's because he's not interested in your praise (or game), at that particular time. You said that "it's fun for him", which could be exactly why he does it. It's not because you asked him to. He's doing it because it's fun, and he's CHOOSING to participate. And as an added bonus, he looks forward to all the attention that he knows is going to follow. So why would he do something he doesn't want to do, just because you asked him to? Or what if the song and dance is not the type of fun he wants? He might jump to clean up if you offer him a cookie though. He's choosing his reward, and they're all coming from you, when they should be coming from the task itself. Remove the reward to clean up, and you've got yourself a power struggle.

I model what I want from my daughter by offering my help to clean up HER toys, and she often offers hers to help me with MY responsibilities (laundry, cleaning up after eating, sweeping, etc). I might sometimes ask her "Do you want to help me do some laundry?" Sometimes she'll shake her head no (which is fine), and other times she gets really excited about helping. But I never force it. If she chooses to help me, I thank her for helping.

When we clean up HER mess, it's always clear that that I'm helping HER, so there's never really an option of to help or not to help. "It's time to clean up your mess! Let's go put the toys away. I will help you!" If she refuses, I won't push. But I will try to make it fun by doing something like putting the toys in my shirt (or her shirt), as a carrying device for her to dump into her toybox. Carrying toys in your pants is fun, so she'll usually want to try it. And when she does, I say "Thank you for cleaning up your toys".

Regardless of who helps who, "thank you" is ALWAYS said.

Knowing how to follow instructions is not the same thing as doing what one wants, because one wants to do it.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AustinMom* 
How do I teach him gently to do what I see fit at the moment even if he doesn't understand why. I don't have the "You do it now or else...." mentality. We usually a go all day with toys everywhere, and when bed time comes, it's time to pick up a little, never all, because that's impossible LOL!

Ahhhh, gotcha. Then what you do is work to reduce the times where it really matters to you that he respond immediately.

For instance, we clean as we go. Might not get every toy every time, but at the end of the day there's only 3-4 different toys out and if she's not up for cleaning those I can zip round and scoop them up in 5 minutes. During the day, as things get out, I:
suggest putting things away
give specific small instructions "put that block there in the box"
start putting stuff away myself
do some other stuff with her (like swinging her around, chasing her, playing with the new toy she's gotten out) and then re-suggest putting the toy away.

This is NOT how it has always been for us. For a long time, she'd go right from playing to wanting to nurse to sleep most of the time or from playing to wanting a new toy to play with RIGHT NOW. But, as she's gotten older and interested in helping out at all, we've worked into this new, and far far better, routine.

The other thing that I've noticed is she plays longer with any given toy when the toys are mostly away. If she has a clear floor, she'll take one toy and play for at least 5 minutes, usually more like 10-15, frequently as long as 20. If there are other toys on the floor it's more like 1 minute. And then she'll want another toy and whine for it.

With the floor cleared, she's more likely to put away one toy before getting out another and she's more likely to be pleasant when she asks for another toy (I let her play with the boardgames, but I don't give her free access to them yet so she has to ask for "box")

My best example of how modeling works over time is with Lina and my books. From the time she could crawl, 8 months, to a couple months ago, 15 months, she'd take most or all of the books off the bottom two shelves of my 4' wide book case (well, when she started walking and got taller she ignored the lowest shelf and went for the 2nd and 3rd shelves from the bottom). Time and time again I told her "books stay on the shelf" "those are mommy's books, here is a book for Lina" and "help mommy put the books back on the shelf". And I'd just start putting them back. She finally, around 15 months, would take one or two books off the shelf and then put them back without prompting, or just with me holding other books out of the way so she could physically manage getting the books back. Now she doesn't bother with my books and takes hers out to read all the time and puts them back when she's done.

The key to the whole thing was that it only took me a minute or two to clean up all the books, so I could be relaxed. I didn't have to worry about it because it didn't matter. It was safe and fun for her and not a PITA for me. Whereas the dvd player ended up 6' up a bookcase because it was a nuisance for her to push the buttons.

And with toys, all the toys she can get out herself I can clean up by myself in 15-20 minutes.

It's all about finding solutions to problems. But identifying the real problem is part of the trick. I try to have only one assumption with parenting--my child is doing her best.

Whenever I slip and think she should know better or she's trying to get me or anything other of the kind, *I* end up acting like a brat.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
So, your question is, How do you make him obey you, every time? You want him to do what you ask every single time, no ifs ands or buts (especially if you know he knows how to do the thing you are asking of him). Okay, that is fine. You have very high expectations and that is fine.

*The answer is that you do it the same way you have been doing it all along.* Modeling, dancing, singing, making it fun, thinking out of the box, modeling AGAIN, giving reasons AGAIN, letting natural consequences teach him lessons, maybe implement some logical consequences, explaining AGAIN, modeling AGAIN.

I just wanted to add that I partially agree with this.

When teaching anything to a young child (or sometimes even a teenager), patience and repetition is required before the child will not just understand, but REMEMBER. My daughter has been saying "please"/"thank you" in sign language since she was about 11/13 months old, because it's always been done to her. I certainly can't force her to use manners, but the repetition has taught her that it's just how things are done in our house. Good manners are a part of life. She doesn't question it. But unlike learning manners via modeling, with older kids, remembering to hang up your coat or put your shoes away neatly in the closet, also needs a LOT of reminding (repetition). However, at this age, they understand logical consequences. At 18 months, they do not.

But if you're using time-out over and over and over to punish for a certain behavior, chances are pretty good that it's not working. You then need to either decide if you want to do more of the same and hope that it will someday take effect, or change your method.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
My best example of how modeling works over time is with Lina and my books. From the time she could crawl, 8 months, to a couple months ago, 15 months, she'd take most or all of the books off the bottom two shelves of my 4' wide book case (well, when she started walking and got taller she ignored the lowest shelf and went for the 2nd and 3rd shelves from the bottom). Time and time again I told her "books stay on the shelf" "those are mommy's books, here is a book for Lina" and "help mommy put the books back on the shelf". And I'd just start putting them back. She finally, around 15 months, would take one or two books off the shelf and then put them back without prompting, or just with me holding other books out of the way so she could physically manage getting the books back. Now she doesn't bother with my books and takes hers out to read all the time and puts them back when she's done.









Oh, the books! We have a book OBSESSION over here. She will ask for a new book (or take one herself) every couple of minutes. If I didn't teach her to put the book back before taking another one off the shelf, we'd have a serious lack of floor problem.









We also do the "put the block back in the box" thing during the day to help avoid any major pile ups at the end of the day. She now often puts her toys back before choosing another one to play with. And when she doesn't, we sometimes (not all the time) have a race at the end of playtime (note, not at the end of the day) to who can clean up the fastest. She usually wins.


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## Harmony08 (Feb 4, 2009)

Raising Our Children Raising Ourselves by Naomi Aldort is another fantastic book.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Something I read in, I think, "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline" by Bailey is that part of why praise, even "Thank you!" for ordinary things can be problematic because it creates a dynamic that the child is doing things for the parent and then if the child doesn't feel like doing something for the parent they also don't do the ordinary thing.


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## AustinMom (Jul 16, 2008)

I can see the points that are being brought up. Here is my general philosophy, I'm going to teach him as soon as a situation presents itself, no matter the age, to do the right thing, ie, picking up blocks at 12 mo or so. He gets it then, so it becomes a habit and a lifestyle for him. Also, I am as the parent the authority in the household, knowing that role is not to be abused, I still have to instill that when I say to do something, he's to do it. Abusing this role would be going around all day, asking orders for every little thing, and using time out when not done. That is crazy for any kid of any age. I have used time out one time. ONE, it's not to be used in excess, and when any punishment is used in excess, it's usually at the point of being useless. We went all day today with him, (the two or three times) picking up with him when I ask, when he didn't do it on his own out of habit. I doubt I will have the need to use a lot of time outs.

Yes, I agree, serious things like hitting, biting, kicking, etc are unacceptable, and if he does this I am first going to tell him it is not okay to do them. If he still does, then I'll use timeouts for those too. I am thinking based on how he has acted before, that when he gets to that age of hitting, biting, etc, he will understand, "mom said no, I shouldn't do this period." And that should be enough, and most likely no consequences besides an apology will be needed as he has learned to do what I say.

I think I am in no way stifling his independence. It's not like I tell him what toys to play with, how and when, or every little thing he HAS to do. That would be an abuse of my authority. But I do strongly feel that my job as a parents is to be an authority figure that when I say something needs to be done, he should learn to follow that because I am then authority figure. Just like in the real world, as stupid as some laws are, they still have to be followed because that's the law, and if you learn to respect authority, then one is more likely to say, yeah, this sucks, but it's what the law is and I don't want to have to suffer the judicial consequences.

So yes, modeling is great, and we do that, and it usually works, but the two or three times it hasn't, we use timeout, and after the whole 60 seconds or so in timeout, we model again, and I help him pick up his things.

I appreciate all of y'all thoughts an comments, and it has given me a lot more clarity on where I stand in my relationship with him.







Thanks so much.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AustinMom* 
I appreciate all of y'all thoughts an comments, and it has given me a lot more clarity on where I stand in my relationship with him.







Thanks so much.











And I'm seeing where you're at a bit more too. Earlier posts had made it seem like you were going to Start Using Timeouts (tm) as a replacement for all your normal discipline tools, instead you feel that they're going to be a helpful addition to how you respond to your ds.

Oh, and because I've just realized that the evenings have become a really bad time for my dd right now, and she's about your ds's age, do be open to adjusting *when* you do things to catch his good moods.







(Kind of like you don't want to try to have a serious heart to heart about a problem you're having with a friend you want to keep when PMS is hitting.)


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Your welcome, Austin Mom.
I think I'll check out of this thread for now.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AustinMom* 
I appreciate all of y'all thoughts an comments, and it has given me a lot more clarity on where I stand in my relationship with him.







Thanks so much.











We're not here to tell you what to do, only to guide you towards other options. You'll find what works for you!


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## Sarah W (Feb 9, 2008)

I think that the key is repetition. I don't think he can understand what responsibility is. He does things because he enjoys them. I think 18 month is too young to teach that kind of lesson. Sometimes he'll do it and sometimes he won't but eventually he'll be used to doing all of those things.

We do use time outs, but only for hitting the dogs. DH's grandmother uses a little rug in the room, but we use her Bumbo. It's not something that she would normally sit on or use for comfort and it isn't uncomfortable.


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