# Anti CIO Advocates - what would you do?



## Island Mommy (Mar 26, 2003)

If you've been on this board before, you've probably seen my posts. DD is 8 1/2 months old and is now waking every 20 - 30 minutes all night long, except for one 1 1/2 stretch when she first falls asleep. I get NO sleep until 7 a.m. when I give DD to DH and sleep for 2 - 3 hours.

I see so many of you are anti-CIO and honestly, I am too, but I don't know what to do. We can't continue like this (I've been saying that for 2 months, but now I'm getting sick, my skin looks horrible and I can barely function).

If you are anti-CIO and were in this position, what would you do? I'll admit I've got a CIO book on hold at the library, plus the No Cry Sleep Solution.

FYI, we cosleep and have since birth. I removed all down from the bed, thinking she might have allergies. I tried an elimination diet but lost so much weight I couldn't continue. Ped says DD may be lactose intolerant, but we're not sure. She wakes crying every time and I nurse her back to sleep. I've tried not nursing, but she usually really wakes and then it's a long process to get her back to sleep.

DH wants to take her at night and lay with her when she wakes, but not pick her up. I'm considering trying this route for a few nights. She will cry alot though and in the meantime neither DH or I will get any sleep. But perhaps she'll then be able to sleep with DH? Do you still think it's CIO even if we stay with DD?


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## Elphaba (Nov 19, 2001)

maybe she needs her own sleep space. it may be that she is a light sleeper and you are waking her when you move or make a noise. can you try sleeping a bit further away from her for a night and see if that helps?
i don't think it's CIOif someone is tending to her needs while she cries. but i don't understand why your husband would want to just lie next to a sobbing infant. that makes no sense to me and seems like all 3 of you would get more upset in that scenario -- her because she knows he is there and won't help her, and you and your dh because the sound of crying is meant to stress you out and elicit a response.
i haven't read your other thread. i have some questions for you but i'll go peruse the original before i inadvertently repeat stuff you've already covered.


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## PurplePixiePooh (Aug 5, 2003)

I am sure that you are really at the end of your rope, but please do not do CIO. CIO is taking your precious child, who I am sure you love very much and placing her in a room alone to cry untill she falls asleep.

Try eliminating all dairy from your diet. It could also be reflux. Try propping her up, like in a car seat, bouncey seat or swing. after feedings, look and listen well. Does she cough alot? Do the cried come in waves maybe accompanied by drool strings? They were teh indicators of ds's reflux. He cannot sleep flat even though he is on meds, he stll needs to be upright, so he sleeps inour room, in the swing. During the day he naps on the couch propped up on a pillow
Have you spoken to your ped about the possibility of reflux?

As far as you needing sleep, yes you do. Try keeping you dd propped up and not lie flat on her back or tummy. avoid pressure on her tummy as well. I do not think that it is CIO if you are right there with her, but there is a reason behind what is happening and I encourage you to find that reason.

We are a sleepsharing family and love it, however ds's comfort is more imporant than being able to say we share a bed right now. It may be hard to have her at arm's length, but it may be a welcome relief for her and you.


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## Miekesmummy (Jun 13, 2003)

Well hello there, looks like we're in the same boat again!

I have a book called 'Sleep Right, Sleep Tight' (an Australian book written by 3 people with extensive experience in babies, children and sleep problems). It says that from 6 months on, babies are able to tolerate short separations from parents. While they are starting to develop separation anxiety, they are also developing the 'object and person permanence' (which means she knows you still exist even though you're not in the room with her).

Anyway, this book by no means suggests that you leave her to cry to sleep, but at your DD's age you can try what they call 'Modified Controlled Comforting'. What this means in a nutshell is that you put her wherever you want her to sleep while she's awake. If she's quiet, leave the room. If she cries, wait 30 seconds and go to her and use settling techniques for 2-10 mins (if she settles earlier, fine, if she doesn't settle in 10 minutes leave the room anyway. Then wait for 2 minutes. Go back in and settle again if still crying, but leave the room for 4 minutes next time. This continues for 6, 8 & 10 minutes. Then after this, just 10 minute blocks until she either goes to sleep or you get her up again.

The authors stress that at no time should you leave her for longer than 10 minutes, and that this is also about what you can deal with - if it's not ok with you then don't leave it for the full 10 minutes.

The authors say to plan to do this, talk about it with dh so you can support each other, and try to have a week without appointments and the like, so you can concentrate on helping her learn to settle and re-settle herself to sleep without interruptions.

Sorry this is long winded. We haven't done this yet, I'm trying to build up the energy to be able to see it through. I think Mieke sleeps just a little better than your DD - we get about 1 and 1/2 hour stints through the night.

Hope you get some sleep soon and if you want any more info from this book I'm happy to share









Kate

Oh, the above I think is for her sleeping in her own room - I can't stand bedsharing anymore - she's too wriggly and neither of us are getting any sleep. Would you consider putting her in another room or do you want to continue bedsharing? I'll have to get back to you on the bed sharing one - that's harder







:


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## PurplePixiePooh (Aug 5, 2003)

How is that technique not CIO? That baby is still going to be left alone to cry. It may not be extreme CIO, but it is still CIO.


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## ja mama (Sep 6, 2003)

Miekesmummy: That's pretty close to what we did and it worked really well. I still think it is certainly next of kin to cio if not the same. But at the point we finally did it(10 mo) I felt like I had nothing else to give and we needed something. We went from waking every 30 min to 1.5 hours to 8 or 9 hour stretches at night within weeks, and we moved him into his own room. Whenever he cried at night DH would go in and hold, rock, rub his back, then lay him back down... I know we didn't wait 10 minutes, anywhere from 30 seconds to 2 min maybe. Whatever felt comfortable/uncomfortable. It started because I'd be so tense trying to get him to calm down I had to lay him down, walk out of the room and calm myself. Then when I went back in he'd be so happy to see me he'd calm down easier. The other thing is he was allergic to wheat, dairy, and strawberries. I never managed to elliminate them completely from my diet either. I don't know how or if this story would help you. Just know someday you'll be through this and you'll all survive.

I wanted to add my ds, 3.5, is still an awesome sleeper! So far no sleep issues from it.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Sorry, but however it is wrapped up, this sounds like cio to me.

Yes, your baby will learn. Yes, he/she will survive. It will 'work', if by 'work' you mean that your baby will learn to sleep. But I believe that damage will be done. There is research that shows that cio causes physiological damage:

"Research by Christopher Coe in the United States suggests that although behaviours may be altered by such methods as leaving babies to cry it out, the physiological effects remain. Coe took infant squirrel monkeys and separated them from their mothers, and then monitored both their levels of 'distress calling' - that is, crying - and the cortisol levels in their blood. After a time, the monkeys ceased calling for their mothers and seemingly had overcome their distress. However, their cortisol levels remained high, and their immune systems and the development of their brains and other systems were negatively affected."

Coe, C.L., Glass, J.C., Wiener, S.G., Levine, S. (1983). Behavioral, but not physiological, adaptation to repeated separation in mother and infant primates. Psychoneuroendocrinology, 8(4): 401-409

There is a reason why women are not comfortable when they leave their babies to cio. It's quite simple - our physiology did not intend us to do it. It is bad for babies, bad for mothers.

I realise that this is not terribly helpful, but maybe you could explore other options. Have you thought about getting your dd to sleep in the stroller, then parking her until she wakes, grabbing some sleep yourself while she does? Both my dds slept for a few hours this way, and dh could resettle them easily by rocking the stroller if they were stirring. He took them for a walk to get them to sleep, and I immediately hit the sack. We still do this some evenings with dd#2.

It sounds exhausting, and frustrating, and I hope you find some answers, but I strongly believe that cio is not the one, whoever wrote the book and named it something else.

Good luck! I hope that you get lots of practical suggestions here.


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## Miekesmummy (Jun 13, 2003)

I believe there is a huge difference in leaving a newborn baby to cry herself to sleep and leaving an 8 1/2 month old for a few minutes.

I think it's about what is an issue for you and your baby. I personally have never left dd to cry alone, but am giving some serious consideration to trying the method I wrote above. I am no longer getting enough sleep to parent her the way I would like to and something needs to change.

It's all very well and good to say that this is a form of CIO and that is bad, but what solutions do you give mothers who are exhausted and do not have the support networks in place to be able to have a break?


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

island mommy,

sorry you're still in the midst of this. we were talking about this in the summer and now it's october already. this is a good reminder of how fast time goes and how quickly your sweet but exhausting baby will grow up and be off to dance class and soccer.

talk to me about how you did the elimination diet. i want to see why you were losing weight.

here's some repeat advice from me: magnesium

did you try it before? how much and at what intervals?

try 500mg calcium and 250 mg MAGNESIUM and a full glass water at bedtime.

then another 1/2 or whole MAGNESIUM in the night when you get up to pee.

this will help you relax and sleep heavier, fall asleep quicker and may get to baby's system and relax her, too.

ACIDOPHOLUS. this helps our family deal with allergy and excema and intestinal problems. easy to take (don't skimp) and easy to give baby.

also, have you started solids? be sure, sure, sure to only give baby food to play with on a full tummy of breastmilk. that means nurse her and have dh help prepare dinner.

too much food and not enough breastmilk can dehydrate a baby and screw up their digestion, etc. can contribute to wakefulness and lead baby to seek milk at night to balance things out.

can you take a nap?

rrr


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## PurplePixiePooh (Aug 5, 2003)

Quote:

It's all very well and good to say that this is a form of CIO and that is bad, but what solutions do you give mothers who are exhausted and do not have the support networks in place to be able to have a break?
Have you tried a swing? My ds would not sleep longer than about 45 min while we co-slept, but once we learned of his reflux and kept him upright and used a swing for night sleep it worked wonders.

Does your baby sleep like this during the day, or is it strictly a night problem???

Quote:

I believe there is a huge difference in leaving a newborn baby to cry herself to sleep and leaving an 8 1/2 month old for a few minutes.
An 8 1/2 month old is still a baby, and is still rather "new" - yes there is a difference. Perhaps you need to use the toilet or tend to another child for a minute. Crying as a means of getting a child to fall asleep is not a good thing. I know that it is darn near impossible to function being so exhausted, I know because I have been there. All behavior has a reason, since our babies cannot tell us the reason we need to find it ourselves. For us it was reflux and a case of having his days and nights mixed. It could be a food allergy, it could be the inability to get back to sleep once wakeful but regardless of what the issue is it will not be solved by letting them cry. Ok, so bed-sharing is not working for you, I understand there are many people who cannot sleep with a baby in the bed, but that does not mean that you need to make the baby CIO.

Do either of you own or have access to a swing? Try it if you can. Yes, it may run for a few hours but if that sleep is needed so desperatly that you would be willing to use a CIO tactic then using a battery-operated swing shouldn't raise any arguments and you can buy decent batteries at the dollar stores and I can tell you from first hand experience that they last just as long as those more expensive ones cost-wise (one set a week for 1$ or one set of energizer max's for two weeks for 3$ KWIM?)

Are you both SAHM's or WAHM's? Can you just wake up your dh's and tell them to take a "shift"?
I am a SAHM and this was happening with my second baby. We worked in shifts. DH took the first one from midnight till about 4-5 am then I took the next one, napping with ds till dd woke up. Then we found the reason and now he is a sleep champion - no crying needed.

Ask yourselves this question. If your babies were sick or colicky would you just let them cry? No, right? You would be there and try to soothe them correct? Why does this need to be any different. Maybe they are in pain from teathing, did you try using something like Hyland's Teething Tablets or even Orajel?

This miserable time will pass, but damage done by making a child CIO, no matter how "light" it is will not.


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## Miekesmummy (Jun 13, 2003)

Quote:
This miserable time will pass, but damage done by making a child CIO, no matter how "light" it is will not.

This is such a simplistic view of the issue. It's not that black and white.

Just as there is research into babies CIO, there is a lot of research to support the fact that an 8 month old baby has the ability to be separated from her parent for short periods of time. They are also highly capable of learning how to settle and re-settle thenselves to sleep. Of course if there is a physical need you attend to it. But is it unreasonable to think that perhaps the baby may cry because at 8 months a habit has formed that you are now attempting to change? 2 minutes. 4 minutes. I have been on the toilet longer than this, and I hardly think Mieke will wear the emotional scars from that into her adulthood.

I'm not advocating that your baby should cry to get to sleep and that you should listen to your baby cry and do nothing. What I will support is a happy, well rested mother. I guess the point I want to make is to be careful how arguments against helping babies learn to sleep are worded, as there are too many mothers out there who feel inadequate enough without having their parenting decisions deemed wrong and cruel by fellow women and mothers.

This method sounded like the middle ground to me. I honestly don't view it as leaving her to cry herself to sleep and as someone who has swings, slings, a hammock and co-sleeps (all of which have failed), I don't really see any other options.

Island Mommy, my offer still stands if you're interested and if it's not for you that's fine too


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## luckylady (Jul 9, 2003)

You know, if there is one thing I have learned, it is that YOU, the mother, know your baby, and yourself best. I am by no means in favor of any form of CIO, but maybe that's because 1. I can function pretty well on 2 hour sleep intervals, and 2. my baby would have NEVER tolerated being left to CIO - she would have cried until she threw up. I do have a very good friend who was suffering so much from lack of sleep that she was just a mess. She was depressed and falling asleep driving - not good. She decided to try Ferber (which I was totally against her doing!) and her DD cried for 5 minutes and fell asleep in a crib the first night!







She must have needed her own space. Some babies are like that.
On the other hand I also know a couple who co-slept and BF their son on demand and decided to Ferberize when he was 9 mos. They tried for a week leaving him to cry for 2-3 hours







and finally gave up when he got an ear infection. he went back to bed with them, and has not been the same baby since that week of he!! he must have had. These are parents who ignored the temperment and needs of their baby and went with the "advice" of parents and doctors.

The bottom line is that if you are a grouchy zombie-like depressed wreck like my friend was everyday, you are probably doing more damage to your baby in your mental and emotional absence than you could in letting your baby cry FOR A FEW MINUTES while you are in the room. Again - I stress that only you know your baby's temperment. I am all for finding the CIO alternative before trying any form of CIO.

I think night time parenting is the hardest part of parenting an that our babies need us just as much at night as they do during the day. Before I knew my friend and saw what she went through I was a very judgemental anti-cio person. I learned - who am I to judge? (although I am judgemental of ignorance and stupid parenting decisions like babywise!) I didn't have to live her life. I see that she's happy now and her baby is perfectly happy now - and we respect each other's parenting decisions (in fact, she's sad she couldn't co-sleep longer) because the bottom line is we both love our children and want the world for them. I think that is also probably true of you.


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## Island Mommy (Mar 26, 2003)

Thanks for all the info and support. I'll post more later, but have an incredible sore throat, dd has a cold and I only slept 2 hours last night. I'm off to bed.

I was supposed to cook Thanksgiving dinner tonight for mom and sister and family. Had to call and say there was no way I could do it. Disappointing, but mom came and picked up the turkey and veggies and took it to my sister's. Now at least I can sleep.


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## ja mama (Sep 6, 2003)

I totally agree with lucklady. I've been thinking about this alot since I last posted. I've always been against cio, on principle. It doesn't make sense to walk away from a crying baby, in a perfect world. But with Josef I wasn't functioning well at all and he still had me near and comforting him when he was crying. With Andrew I was prepared to do the same thing but his temperment is different and I never 'needed' him to learn to do it alone. He can fall asleep anywhere, stroller, car, my arms... then I could lay him down. There were a couple times I just threw him in his crib because I needed to tend to Josef immediately and Andrew would cry for a minute then start playing until I came and got him. He didn't even seem to be overly excited to see me.

I don't know what advice to give except try to know where you stand as a Mom and what your baby needs from you. If you are managing to function with little, broken-up sleep bits it's different than if you're afraid you'll fall over from sleep deprivation while holding the baby and damage him that way. You have to find what fits you. I don't think there've been any experiments done where the mother consistently returns and gives more comfort than alone time.

Let us know, when you get a moment, how it's going and what you're choosing.


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

but the thing is, she requested help from anti-cio advocates.

i wonder why people don't respect that.

there seems to be quite a lot of trying to convince going on here.

it's great to say here's what worked for us, if it helps you, great.

hope you feel better soon, island mama.

rrr


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## pip (Apr 3, 2003)

Island Mommy I feel for you! I guess all you can try is the pick up and comfort/put down ... pick up and comfort/put down ... pickup....

Have you read the Baby Whisperer? I think she's quite sensible. Practical advice on how to change 'accidental parenting' without just leaving a baby to CIO. It does take a LOT of patience though, 'cos it's so tempting not to put down when you know it will upset the baby, even for a moment. She talks about picking up over a hundred times on night one, then thirty, and on until baby can settle without rocking/walking or whatever you can't keep doing all night.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.


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## Miekesmummy (Jun 13, 2003)

rrr,

I AM anti-cio - the method I wrote about is what I am considering because we are in exactly the same position and have tried everything else. It does not involve leaving a baby to cry it out (as I keep saying). She asked for suggestions and that's what I gave her. What haven't I respected?


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## Island Mommy (Mar 26, 2003)

I value everyone's response so far.

I will definitely try rrr's suggestions. If we could get to the end result of better sleeping without anyone crying (me or the baby







) I'd be the happiest woman alive.

But I also know that I can't keep going like this, although it has been over 4 months now. So, it's important to have some alternatives in case I get to the "danger zone" as Dr. Sears puts it.

My worry of course is that I'll try something and it will backfire and dd will sleep every WORSE afterwards. Although, we're getting to the point that if she slept any worse she wouldn't be sleeping at all.

The last couple of nights I've put dd in a bucket seat to see if sleeping on an incline helps. No improvement so far, but she has a cold so I'm not expecting anything right now.

We had a swing but it was the wind-up kind. Mamaof2, how old is your ds? Until what age do you think it is safe for them to sleep in a swing? I'm not sure dh would go for me buying a mechanical swing...but hey, maybe I'll just do it. Do you give your ds Zantac? We got a prescription but I was uncomfortable giving it to dd when I didn't know for sure if she had reflux.

As for the elimination diet, I ate only oats, rice, millet, meat, olive oil, squash, avocado, potato and pears for over a month. I am not a big meat-eater, so couldn't stomach eating meat every day. I tell you, if anyone wants a good weight-loss diet, that's it! I've since tried completely eliminating dairy and I just keep giving up. I don't drink milk and use rice milk on my cereal. A bit of cheese once in awhile, a splash of milk in my tea and some chocolate here and there is the extent of my dairy intake.

I'll admit I bought some soy-based formula the other day. If dd is lactose intolerant then no matter how much I eliminate dairy she's still getting lactose in my breastmilk. I thought I'd try a bottle of soy formula before she goes to sleep at night and see if that helps.

Thanks for all your support.


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## pixiepunk (Mar 11, 2003)

(((hug))) what a tough situation to be in.

i agree with whoever it was that suggested acidophilus, if you haven't tried it already. my DD had yeast in her belly and cried every time she ate for like a month, especially at night, and as soon as i started giving her acidophilus (and taking some myself, too) she was a totally different baby within like 3 days. it's extremely gentle to their delicate systems, so even if that's not the problem, it wouldn't hurt to try. does it seem like she's gassy? i know with DD, the yeast made her very gassy, and to help relieve those symptoms when they were extreme i gave her Hyland's homeopathic colic tablets - they always made her burp really loud a few times, and then she'd usually pass right out.

we co-sleep, and for my DD, picking her up usually makes it worse unless she's totally screaming. instead, i gently pat her on the chest (she sleeps on her back), stroke her head with the other hand, and shhhhhhh in her ear very lightly and rhythmically. she never cries for more than about a minute that way, but if i pick her up we'll be pacing the floor for an hour. just what works for us.

i hope you find something that helps soon - it sounds like everyone could use a good night's sleep.


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## Island Mommy (Mar 26, 2003)

How do I give dd acidophilus and how much?


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Island mommy - your thread is titled "Anti CIO Advocates: What Would You Do"








Just from reading that title, it seems to me that you want to be convinced to not CIO.....
It sounds like, in your heart, you know you will not use CIO. That is fine. This phase shall pass. Your babe will sleep okay, sooner or later. Just try to hang in there. I've been through it twice


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## Island Mommy (Mar 26, 2003)

Candiland, can you give me any idea of how long before this phase passes? And also, reassure me that she won't be psychologically harmed and unable to sleep for her whole life if I don't get her sleeping well soon?


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## Miekesmummy (Jun 13, 2003)

Island Mommy if someone here can't tell you how much acidophilus to give your local health food store should be able to help. I believe here you can get it in liquid form (??), which would be easier to give dd.

Also, completely eliminating dairy from my diet has improved Mieke's general unexplained fussiness, so if you can last it may be worthwhile. I have been off all dairy now for about 4 months.

Good luck.

edited to say:
I took acidophilus tablets for a couple of months for myself when Mieke was about 3 weeks old - I was told this is excreted in breast milk, but not sure how useful it is once it reaches baby.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

I have to admit to being a little confused by some of the responses on this thread. I thought that the OP was asking for suggestions to avoid CIO, and that those of us who are anti-cio were giving some useful and imaginative suggestions.

Island Mommy, I've been where you are, and it's miserable. But I know that leaving my baby to cry would have left me even more stressed and miserable! No matter how it is wrapped up, cio does cause harm, whether to a newborn, or an 8 month old. But that doesn't mean that you don't need some solutions.

I suggested the stroller late-night walk. Have you tried that? Both my girls slept for a few hours after a long late night walk with dh. I went to bed the moment they left the house, so often had had 3-4 hrs sleep before they woke to nurse.

Also, how about naps during the day? I just had to be disciplined and take a nap whenever the baby did, just to get enough sleep over each 24hr period.

As others have said, the phase does pass. I recall my wonderful pediatrician saying that you should never consider cio before 18 months because before that you can't explain what your expectations are. (I'm sorry, but no author can convince me that a baby can take separation at 6 months onwards, that is a nonsense, and all that we know about early child development says so. It may be a useful argument for parents clutching at straws, but it is simply not true.)

I decided that if dd didnt sleep for longer by 18 months, I'd look at some form of nightweaning. Lo and behold, when 18 months came, she was sleeping longer, I was managing my routine to get more sleep, and I didnt need to do anything. I wouldn't have cio'd anyway, but it was useful to have an accurate sense of when a child could be communicated with about going to bed.

In fact, last night, I took dd#2 to bed, 14 months, and was amazed that she understood "No, you must lay down" and "If you stand up, Daddy will have to come and get you." Lots of giggles and laying down, saying 'night night' and getting up again, but she *understood* what I was saying. She didnt manage to get to sleep, but dh came and took her and walked her to sleep for me. At 8 months a baby simply doesnt understand. The whole 'go in and reassure the baby' b/s in the cio language is so infuriating. Reassure him what? That you love him, but are ignoring him?

I'm sorry, but I do feel that on mdc we should be able to feel free to be blunt about methods such as cio and call them for what they are. It surprises me and saddens me to come here and read supportive posts for the tired mama that condone such an anti-AP practice.

Support the mama with practical suggestions, but not with justifying abuse.

I hope that you find more ideas and answers here from those of us who read your OP as wanting non-cio advice and support. Hang in there, many of us have been there, and survived it, and can look back and say that not cio might be tough, but it's worth it.

Good luck!


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

i got 2 things of acidopholus out of the fridge to tell you what they say.

we have a health food chain store here called WILD OATS. they seem to have the biggest selection of acidopholus, they're not all the same.

also, they ship and sell them refrigerated, guarenteeing that it's still alive.

i got JARRO-DOHHILUS, probiotics for all ages. these are capsules that can be opened and poured on food, or put in a little waterto spoon to baby. but, i would take 3 or 4 of them a day with water, 20 to 60 minutes after a meal, as they direct, to really try it.

JARRO-DOPHOLUS has 6 different strains of positive bacteria.

theis other is designed especially for babies and kids, BABY BIFIDACTYL. it has 3 strains plus FOS like the other one. they recommend 1/4 teaspoon in water. it's from a company called KAL.

i would call around to healthfood stores and ask how many different probiotics they have. do they have baby bifidactyl? if they have a good department, there might be a knowledgable person to help you choose.

if you're going to try probiotics, of which acidopholus is only one, it's also important to reduce sugars and refined carbs, which turn to sugar, on which yeast feeds. instead of juice, try fruit and water. don't base meals on flour. double or triple fresh veggies. eat a little protein, whenever you eat.

i wouldn't just give probiotics to a baby without taking them myself.

let us know what you find out.

rrr


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## PurplePixiePooh (Aug 5, 2003)

Quote:

We had a swing but it was the wind-up kind. Mamaof2, how old is your ds? Until what age do you think it is safe for them to sleep in a swing? I'm not sure dh would go for me buying a mechanical swing...but hey, maybe I'll just do it. Do you give your ds Zantac? We got a prescription but I was uncomfortable giving it to dd when I didn't know for sure if she had reflux.
My ds is 3mos old now. He still night wakes, but not every 30-45 minutes or so! Usually I feed him at 1, 4 and then he is up for the day at 7. Quite an improvement.

As far as what age it is safe to let them sleep in the swing, as long as you have proper head/neck support and keep them seatbelted in, as long as necessary. as I said, I hat him being in it but we all need to sleep and this way nobody cries.

Yes, he is on Zantac. The testing for reflux is invasive and dangerous for little ones, so although at first I was not convinced he indeed had reflux I decided to try it to see. If he did the medicine would work and he would be more peaceful. It worked. He was different after one dose! It took about 2 days for it to really kick in fully, but it did make a difference right away.
I am not a medicine person at all, but reflux can wear away the esophagus and is extremely painful, so I gave it a try. Since you have it, try it out and see what happens. Give it a few days, though. Keeping baby upright, and when you think the reflux is hitting, try giving a paci or your finger to suck on, the extra saliva produced by non-feeding sucking helps to relieve the pain.

even if your dh is not into the mechanical swing, I would still get one. I usually respect my dh's wishes, but in your case I would tell him its necessary and tough. Just look for one used, from a friend or on consingnment. Much cheaper that way.

I hope this helps some.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Island Mommy,
My 17 mo. DS still goes through phases of frequent nightwaking.
My four year old DD generally sleeps through the night.

My (almost) 4 yo. dd had nightwaking issues until I nightweaned her and stuck her in a separate bed with her father (she was 20 mo. and I was 4 mo. preggo with my second, and working full time







: ). BUT, the nightwaking occurred in cycles. It seemed, when she had a "bad" week, that I was just going to go insane and that the phase would never end and life as I knew it would be over! Then she'd phase into a good week, where the nightwaking was less frequent and I was sleeping a lot sounder so her noises didn't bother me as much.

It is normal for them to cycle in and out of what we would deem "good weeks" and "bad weeks". When I weaned her and moved her into bed with my dh, she had no problems sleeping through the night with the help of a pacifier, which we only introduced because it was kind of an "emergency" that my preggo self get some sleep at night.

My DS had the same good/bad cycles of nightwaking. Some nights were awful; some were okay; some were great.... it's really easy to freak out and feel like your life is forever over as you know it when you aren't getting enough sleep! I nightweaned him, gradually, into the family bed with his sister and dad after he turned one and he absolutely loves it... even from the beginning, when he'd see everyone getting ready for bed, he'd get all excited and stand at the bottom of the stairs to go upstairs to sleep with his sister and daddy!

My DD and DS both LOVE LOVE LOVE bedtime, and if dealing with all those good/bad cycles of nightwaking peacefully helped create their love of snuggling under the blankets and going to sleep, than I am definitely an anti-CIO advocate! It really does feel like the nightwaking will never end, but since I have gone through it twice, let me assure you that time really does fly and before you know it, your child will be going to bed without you!









Oh, and BTW - ask for Baby Bifidus (sp?) at the health food store. It is a refrigerated powdered probiotic supplement. They have specific instructions for its use on the package. When dealing with thrush, I mixed a tiny bit of water in to make a thick paste and swabbed it around in DS's mouth three times a day. I don't think you have to worry about OD'ing on probiotics!


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## Miekesmummy (Jun 13, 2003)

http://user.tninet.se/~rqm379w/no.html

Here is an article I found on this forum. It is consistent with the info in the book I have, the one where the authors have wrapped up their CIO strategies and disguised it as a caring way for everyone to get some sleep.

If I wasn't anti-CIO, I wouldn't have replied. I am aware of the title of the post. It seems as though only every second line of my responses have been read by some.

I sincerely hope that in out in the world some of you are more subtle with your feelings about this. I still think that the last thing the parents of an unsettled baby need when considering such a drastic measure as CIO is to be told they're wrong and abusive. 'Problems' with settling and feeding can be really damaging to the self-confidence of new parents and they don't need to hear that they're harming their offspring when at the end of the day they're just trying to get by.


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## pixiepunk (Mar 11, 2003)

i mix about 1/8 teaspoon of acidophilus powder (either open a capsule, or they sell a 'babydophilus' which is a jar of the powder), and mix that with a teaspoon of water, and give it orally with a syringe three times daily. since your baby is older than mine, you could probably mix it with some baby food or in a bottle or sippy cup.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Miekesmummy, I have to admit to still being confused. I have reread the responses to the OP and they all seem to be supportive and full of suggestions and helpful advice. And yes, they are fairly blunt, on the whole, about the damage that cio does. Because it is fact. It is harmful.

Rest assured, irl, I rarely speak up about cio when I'm in cio company. In fact, I have friends visiting me riight now who keep telling me that cio does no harm and it works, blah blah. What would be the point of me responding, except to politely say that it is not something that I would do. They've done it three times. Their kids slept through the night at a few weeks old. They also have some interesting detachment issues, but that would be a whole other post.







:

I read the link, and yes, it is certainly cio, dressed up as being supportive of child development. I just don't think it has a place for recommendation on an AP board.

Just a few quotes that caught my eye:

"A one-month-old needs six hours of unbroken sleep without food. At two months the night should be eight hours long, at three months ten, and at four months twelve (eleven or eleven and a half if it's more convenient for the adults). By five to six months at the very latest, the child should be left in peace, preferably in another room. (Siblings, however, shouldn't disturb the baby's sleep.) That doesn't mean that the house has to be a tomb. Sounds and silence should succeed each other naturally".

"The patting soon causes the little body to relax, which is, of course, essential for anyone who wants to get to sleep.
The crying dies away and ceases, only to immediately start up again. New "questions" (or repeated old ones) come up. I don't pat the whole time, and when I do, I don't pat in the same way. The louder the crying, the steadier, firmer and faster the patting. The weaker the crying, the softer and slower the patting. As soon as the baby is lying still and the crying has stopped, but well before she's asleep, I finish off with soft, farewell pressure on her back. I get up and leave the room, saying a series of rhythmic goodnight jingles in a friendly, matter-of-fact tone of voice. These four, possibly six, goodnight jingles come one after the other: one when I leave the crib, one on the way out the door and two to four from outside the closed door."

"After the jingle, which in the beginning usually provokes renewed screaming, I listen to the child carefully. Is the crying gradually diminishing? If it is, it should be interpreted as a reaction to my message, and you can't forbid people to react. Nor should you, because the reactions of little babies should by and large be respected, not silenced.
If the crying becomes more intense, signifying more anxious, agitated "questions", I give appropriate answers in the form of gentle reminders.
In the former case, I wait a little longer and then give a so-called "confirmation" jingle when the child is completely quiet (but still not asleep). This jingle is serene and confident, and tells the baby that all is right with the world, that she should rest easy and go to sleep, and that there isn't a thing to fear from the wolf, since all that is going to happen to the baby is that she will sleep in peace and contentment. The confirmation jingle is literally the last word, and it is what follows the child into dreamland, just as a confirmation should.
In the latter case, after the first message, I give the baby as many reassuring reminders as are necessary to convince her that I will be able to keep the wolf at bay. I put her in position in her crib again, pat again, say the jingle again as many times as the baby "asks" - and then once more - until the confirmation jingle brings the "question period" to a satisfactory end, and the baby can sleep in peace."

"People of all ages should eat every three and a half to four hours max,"

"The baby is now sleeping in her own room or a sleeping alcove that is screened off, since she would otherwise be disturbed by the loving parents' presence."

"After one month of the "cure", the penny has really dropped. The baby is her own clock. The timetable makes everyone feel secure, and everyone has a pleasant life, a life that can be planned and enjoyed. Life is predictable for the baby, and she can greet each day with joy. The endless crying is a thing of the past."

Hardly advice that a parent visiting mdc would be likely to be seeking. It is interesting that you say you've read it but havent followed through yet - is this because you too believe it to be damaging?

I'm confused as to your point. Is it supportive, for example, to someone contemplating circumcision to tell them that it is a painless procedure? Because it's not. It doesnt make sense to me that because someone is at the end of their rope, we must pretend that something is OK really, because they are contemplating it. So, my posts were intended to put my view that cio is harmful, then offer some practical ideas and sympathy. I've been there, but to have been told that cio was really not such a bad thing, would have enraged me and added to my feeling of helplessness, as I instinctively know that to be wrong. Not helpful in the slightest.


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

wow. all that you copied from that cio link is really upsetting.

there is so much support for detachment and independence in our society. the co sleepers are like a little whistling on the wind.

read milk ,money, madness, read the politics of breastfeeding, read about our closest primate relatives like the orangutans who practice attachment parenting and nurse their babies for 5 to 8 years. train your child to be soothed by a bell? for shame.

rrr


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## Miekesmummy (Jun 13, 2003)

I don't want to take up any more of this thread debating, as it's clear we obviously disagree and no amount of explaining will make you less confused. I won't post anymore after this on this topic.

That article you dismissed as CIO b/s was found on an anti-cio resource thread on this forum.

I think it's great if parents have the internal coping mechanisms and support networks which enable them to wheel their babies around in a stroller through the wee hours of the morning, and the luxury to nap during the day. But the fact is that a lot of parents don't.

The circumcision issue that you raised Britishmum is also something I feel strongly about (like CIO) but the reasons people have their sons circumcised are things I have no experience to comment on. I would never sit in judgement for the simple reason that I do not walk in their shoes. And how far would you go with these parenting issues? What would you say to breastfeeding mum who was having difficulty and thinking of switching to a bottle? That formula is grossly second rate to breastmilk, can hurt the baby by causing constipation, increased likelihood of allergy, and decreased immunity to diseases?

Sure be as blunt as you like, you know you're right. I know babies need to be held, to be nutured, that their cries are with purpose. Having a social work and child protection background, I also know that sometimes a parents reserves fall so low they employ CIO for the sake of their own sanity. Which would you rather see, a crying baby or a dead baby or mother? I've seen both and I know which I'd prefer.

I think it's really sad that we think we have the right to judge others because we, as subscribers to the attachement parenting philosophy, are all perfect.

I stand by what I wrote - I don't believe it is CIO. I think some of the opinions here are extreme and rigid, and not accounting for differences in temperaments of babies, support structures for parents, and stages of childhood development. The reason I haven't implemented it is because I still believe Mieke is suffering from an allergy, in which case this needs to be resolved first. I know my daughter and I am confident that at such time we choose to address her sleep habits she will respond well.

BTW, rrr? The "bell" you described I'm assuming refers to the jingle. The jingle that Britishmum quoted is, in fact, the author saying a little rhyme to the baby as part of the settling process.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

MiekesMummy

I honestly don't see how anyone could read that article and see it as not being cio. If it was posted as a link on an anti cio post on mdc, then I'm surprised that someone didnt read it and take it to task. Because someone else posted it because they believed it not to be cio, doesn't make it so. Anyone here can read it for themselves and decide for themselves.

Being blunt on an AP board to a mum who asks anti cio advocates for advice, is not the same as being blunt in public. As I said in my last post, I generally keep quiet in public. In fact, just recently I commented that I am 'weak' in public on AP issues and sometimes feel that I should speak out more. After all, who is going to advocate for a child who can't speak for himself? I try to keep my opinions quiet unless advice is asked for. Here, it was asked for.

Regarding support networks, as I said, I've walked in those shoes, with non-sleeping baby and no support. My family live on another continent. A solution for us, although you make it sound impossible, was for my dh to walk my babies in the stroller, not in the 'wee hours', but at bedtime. The moment he left the house, as I explained, I hit the sack. Is that so outlandish, (assuming that the parent has a partner to do this, if she doesn't then obviously the advice is useless). Why would that be useless advice? Surely if the OP wants alternatives, any alternative to cio is useful to her to consider?

It amuses me somewhat that you consider me militant. On the subjects of circumcision and cio, I guess I am. Circumcision more than cio, as it is physical mutilation. I dont' consider that I need to be non-judgemental about parents on this. Is it so wrong to judge abuse to be abuse? Like you, I have worked with abused children - many, many of them. Circumcision, for whatever reason, is physical abuse. If you were to pull out a child's fingernail, it would be abuse. If you cut off a part of his penis, it is abuse.

Imagine if a new home for disabled or elderly people were established with policies on feeding (I quote from your article "People of all ages should eat every three and a half to four hours max,") or sleeping ("After one month of the "cure", the penny has really dropped. The baby is her own clock. The timetable makes everyone feel secure, and everyone has a pleasant life, a life that can be planned and enjoyed. Life is predictable for the baby, and she can greet each day with joy. The endless crying is a thing of the past.") Would we all be expected to sit on the sidelines and be non-judgemental? I think not.

Judgemental has become, imo, a word that we're so afraid of that sometimes we fail to do what is right.

As I said, someone needs to speak for children. I can read and comprehend why parents are persuaded by society that circumcision is necessary, for whatever reason, but I cannot condone it.

I can understand _from first hand experience_ why a parent can be driven to cio. But I still can't condone it. IMO, cio is not as abusive as circumcision, but the research has been done to show that it does harm. Not the long term physical, irriversible harm of circumcision, but harm nonetheless. Just becuase someone is considering it and is under pressure, doesn't mean that I feel I should say it's OK. Quite simply, it's not. The baby has no concept that its mum is under pressure. This does not cut down on the physiological damage.

You ask what I'd say to a b/f mother considering a switch. I've helped many new b/f women, and I think they'd tell you that I was supportive and helpful. I don't tell them to go ahead and make the switch to formula if b/f was difficult. I try to help them with the difficulties that they face. I tell them that if they started supplementing, their supply will decrease. These are facts, and what else should I do? Should I tell them to supplement will make no difference? Then face their despair, when, lo and behold, their supply dwindles? But if someone uses formula (which many, many of my acquaintances do) - do you imagine I get in their face and tell them that my children will be, on average, 7 IQ points higher than theirs?

I think you've made assumptions about me because I post honestly _on an AP board_ . If we can't be honest here, where can we be?

I hope that you get your child's allergies sorted out and that this allieviates your sleep issues. Believe me, I've been there. Twice. It is tough.

I hope that this gives you a better idea of where I'm coming from. You'd be surprised, I think, if you met me irl, to see how little I say and how quiet I keep in cio and mainstream society.


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## almama (Mar 22, 2003)

Dairy, dairy, dairy! I gave it up 4 months ago to help my baby's eczema -but kept up with chocolate (in massive quantities!!). He was waking every hour on the hour. Now he is up at 10 PM to pee, maybe in the middle of the night 1 time, and then in the morning. I recently eliminated wheat for 3 weeks, but he had no changes when I added it back into his diet.

It took a week for ME to handle each food eliminated, but after that, you don't miss it (even chocolate!)


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

almama - you're a stronger woman than I...........


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## Mona (May 22, 2003)

Island Mommy-
How are you doing? Been thinkin' about you...

Lisa


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

oh, a JINGLE......like a tune. now i get it!

notice how the mom who posted disappears when the tension rises? i've seen this on other threads, too.

WHAT IS THE VALUE OF AN OPEN DISCUSSION? this is a really important question.

if everyone respectfully says what worked for her, or what she has read, the seeking mom will have a lot to choose from. ultimately, people sort through info and choose what matches the deepest conviction of their hearts.

of course, our ideas will conflict, but we don't have to make it personal.

we don't want island mama to feel like she has to be a tie breaker

everyone here has participated because she cares for the well-being of moms and babies, and because she believes she has something worthwhile to share.

thanks, rrr


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## cheryl (Mar 23, 2002)

Quote:

No matter how it is wrapped up, cio does cause harm, whether to a newborn, or an 8 month old.
Or a 3 year old, a 10 year old, a 20 year old or 70 year old.
Letting people cry hurts both parties.

The only offering I can give you from a mom of six is that the "norm" of sleep patterns we are told to accept do not normally exist in families that are intuit with their child's needs. (meaning families who aren't interested in listening to a child cry for minutes/hours)
Yes, I know you must be exhausted...but if you give up the mental exhaustion of figuring how you "should" get your child to sleep, the physical exhaustion of carrying through on that cultural plan you might find the "surrender" leaves you with more sleep.

I've had kids that nursed from 9 months to 3 years. It doesn't make a hoot of difference in how they sleep at night. 2 year olds need extra insurances. Give it to them now, it will give you payback in the future.

And Surrender is a good sleep agent..(and a bit of chamomile tea)


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## Island Mommy (Mar 26, 2003)

Sorry mamas, here I am. Yes, partly I was quiet because things seemed to be getting a bit tense, but also I have been sick and so has dd.

We had one decent night then last night wasn't so good again. I realize that the decent nights are where I fall asleep the instant dd does or while she's nursing. The bad nights are where I just can't seem to fall asleep and I start resenting dd for nursing so much. Then I try other options to soothe her which she resents, so she gets frustrated and cries and wakes up and then we're both up longer.

So, here's my plan for sleeping better myself.
1. Try the supplement suggestion from rrr.
2. No computer after dinner.
3. A rest every afternoon, regardless of whether I sleep.
4. A walk outside every day.
5. Try to make it to my yoga class each week (I missed the last 2).

Any other suggestions?


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

A gin and tonic before bed?

Only joking.

Sounds like a good plan, especially taking a rest and disciplining yourself to try to sleep the moment she does.

Sorry things got tense around here.







Hope you get some well-deserved rest.


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## hollyhobbie (Jun 13, 2002)

uh yeah, joking aside. i know what it is like to be so tense about being woken up so much that you cant sleep so sometimes i have a glass of wine before bed. i have read about it and it seems that while not perfect that the occasional glass of wine may help more than harm in our situation. when i reach my wits end, i do have a little drink. i didn't for the first say 6 months or so but then realised from reading and talking to friends that a little bit was ok. they say to do it after nursing but i know our babes nurse all the time so maybe before a bottle is planned. if she will take one then it is a bit of a break for you.

i would be careful with soy though as babies who are allergic/sensitive to dairy often cant tolerate soy neither. public health nurse suggested hypoallergenic first then try soy. hypoallergenic is allimentum or nutrigen (or something like that) they are available at london drugs. enuf about all that. hope you have another good night. maybe other moms can warn you off alcohol if they have better info that me.


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## MammaJill (Oct 17, 2003)

Is it possible that your dd is teething? My ds is one month older and when a new toofer is coming through it definitely affects his sleep. I give him some Tylenol if I can tell he is in pain, then nurse and that seems to help.

Also, my ds was up every 2 hours or so since birth (1.5 hours as a newborn) till about 2 weeks ago when we moved him from our room into his own room. I am guessing maybe us or the dog woke him up moving at night? Since being in his own room, he can now go 6 hours at night! I have a sofa bed in there so I can lay down and nurse him to sleep if he wakes up. We also have a bedtime routine (bath, pj's, brush teeth, lay down and nurse to sleep) so he knows what to expect. I bring a book into his room and lay for 15 minutes after he has gone to sleep before putting him in his crib. So far this is working well.

Good luck and I hope you both get some sleep soon!


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

hello, everyone.

i would like to strongly advocate against the practice of drinking alcohol before bed--especially when nursing and sleeping with a baby.

alcohol acts both as a depressant and a stimulant.

alcohol acts both as a stimulant and a depressant.

alcohol may make you feel sleepy, but does not provide for deep or quality sleep. your rest is interrupted by the detox process.

it is also never recommended to drink alcohol when you're nursing a baby. the alcohol is transferred to the milk. sulfites in the wine may also cause allergic reaction.

alcohol may impair your awareness of your baby. it certainly impairs judgement, although the above mother is recommending only a small amount, it can be problematic, at best, and dangerous, at worst.

women who are likely to become alcoholic, do so at a much quicker rate than men. and alcohol destroys women's bodies much more quickly. women are also affected by smaller amounts of alcohol than men.

what can a sleepless breastfeeding mother do to get more or better sleep? everyone is individual, results vary.

1. stretch

2. exercise--try to get your whole body working--20 min of swimming is fabulous. walk with the stroller. take mom and baby yoga.

3. skip caffeine.

4. skip chocolate.

5. reduce sugar and eat whole, complex, natural foods.

6. detox with lots of water, which you need for breastfeeding, too

7. take vitamins at breakfast or lunch---but not at bedtime.

8. take minerals anytime--but definitely at bedtime.
calcium and magnesium give you what you need to not be
tense, anxious, jittery, etc. (big water to avoid stones)

9. get a big bed, make a bed for husband out of the bed, if neccesary, and learn to latch baby on and go back to sleep.

10. buckwheat hull pillow holds shape under neck.

11. remind ourselves how fast these babies grow up!

12. turn your pain and suffering into creativity: write poetry and stories for mothering mag. write a play about your experience.

what can help a baby sleep for longer stretches at night?

1. nurse more during the day. really make time for solid nursing sessions during the day. don't put baby off. don't offer snacks or other liquid. this leads to baby making up what she needs at night.

2. the more you nurse in the day and evening and at bedtime, the less baby may need to make up in the middle of the night. night nursing can be seen as independent, self-regulating behavior.

3. acidopholus and other probiotics ( which come together) can help restore healthy intestinal bacteria in both mother and baby. intestineal discomfort is disruptive.

4. if the mother keeps eating a diet high in sugar and refined carbohydrates, the acidopholus won't help much, and the baby will be more sensitive to allergenic foods and environmental irritants.

5.baby may be reacting to allergens in the mother's diet. a rotation diet can help scout this out.

I CAN'T SAY ENOUGH HOW MUCH HELP I'VE HAD FROM MAGNESIUM. TRY AT LEAST 500 MG A DAY, SPACED OUT AND WITH WATER. GET ONE SEPERATE FROM THE CALCIUM, SO YOU CAN TAKE IT AS NEEDED.

YOU MAY FIND MAGNESIUM MORE RELAXING THAN ALCOHOL.

RRR


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Island mommy-I am thinking of you!

We have a similarly challenged child. And I have to say, that you have to do what's best for your family. I am anti-CIO, but I am begining to be less judgemental about everyone's choices when they've seemingly exhausted all else.

If your family is being depleted of all it's energy day after day after day, and your health is suffering, both mental and physical, then some sort of gentle sleep coaxing might work for all of you. I know Dr. Gordon has some good advice.

Best of luck.


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## Miekesmummy (Jun 13, 2003)

Oh and speaking of relaxation, I took a homeopathic remedy during labour (and found it so good I have used it since then). It is called rescue remedy and made by a company called Bach who make a range of flower remedies (comes from England I believe).

Anyway the rescue remedy I found helpful, not so much to induce sleep, bur most definitely to calm down when I feel as though I'm getting too anxious.

How's it going? Any more zzzzzz's coming your way?

Edited to say, I have been assured it is also safe for baby (rubbed on the wrist). I used it on Mieke when she had her hernia op at 9 weeks







).


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## Mona (May 22, 2003)

rrr-
Thanks for all those recommendations. Very helpful....


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## MommyDOK (Jan 9, 2003)

If it's any consolation to you......my dd is 11 months old and nursed 9 times last night between 9 and 7 am. She does this almost every night and I too am exhausted and worn out. She slept longer at 6 months----about 4 hours, but since she got her first tooth after that she wakes up all the time. She won't eat any solids so I wonder if she is really hungry at night. We use AP techniques and I have to say that she is a very happy baby. Dh and I are the ones worn out. I've got two priorities in my day: that's to eat myself and nurture her. I don't do dishes, don't clean, don't do anything else unless I have the energy, which is rare. I sleep whenever she sleeps. Even if I can't sleep when she lays down, I lay down with her just to let my body rest.

I don't have any solutions, but I know that we're not cio. A close family that recommended ap and mdc to us has four children and they all nursed the same way. Now they are all older and you can really see how ap has paid off.


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## hollyhobbie (Jun 13, 2002)

thanks for the info on alcohol rrr. i am glad you have it. i didnt think it was the best solution by a long shot and wondered if it affected sleep in the long run but was feeling like island mommy some real desperation. i am very committed to ap'ing my baby but after months of no sleep, you get a bit down and your thinking skewed so i know how island mommy is feeling a bit. not completely though b/c baby-loo sleeps a bit longer at times than her baby.

so island mommy, maybe no glass of wine but the other suggestions sound good and i think i will try some of them myself.


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

thanks, hollyhobbie,

for the gracious reply.

thanks for the gracious reply.

you set a good example for all the opinionators in the commune.

rrr


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## littleteapot (Sep 18, 2003)

My midwife talked with me about true lactose intolerence in bf'd babies, it's extremely rare and easily treated. When we suspected DD might have it, I bought some Lact-Aid drops (per her request), and put five drops on her tongue before each feeding. She ended up not being LI (even though the drops did help.)

But try it, and just see if it works.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

rrr, just to clarify, hope you realised that the gin and tonic suggestion was a joke.


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

dear island

if you plan to exercise, nap and go to bed early, you may no longer have time for this thread!

the internet is really time consuming.

let me slightly alter my magnesium suggestion.

if you really want to nap when she naps, take one magnesium (with a full glass of water) before nap time and the other at bedtime.

you could take the calcium either time or break it in half, and do half earlier and half later.

if you find that your stomach is sensitive to the magnesium, you will have to break in half and space it out a little more.

i read up on magnesium to confirm that this is safe advice. there were lots of recommendations for how magnesium is helpful, and no bad warnings.

the best google site was the one called something like the magnesium deficiency calamity.

i agree with the above mother of 6. my friend and i used to jokingly say "surrender to motherhood!" when we complained about babies with impossible schedules and exhaustion.

it does help, somehow, to join the sisterhood of motherhood. and reflect on all the mothers throughout time who have sacrificed for their children.

the dependent babies are so quickly riding away on bikes.

best wishes, rrr


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## Island Mommy (Mar 26, 2003)

rrr, I just posted my thanks about your magnesium suggestion on another thread, but I'll do it here too. Something is working...I am sleeping better at night. Unfortunately, I bought the magnesium/calcium pills (they were a bit cheaper), but think I will go get some pure magnesium. Although the calcium probably doesn't hurt as I am eating no dairy and my calcium intake is lower than usual. (I used to drink quite a bit of milk).

I almost hate to post this for fear of jinxing it, but dd has slept a bit better the past 2 nights. I've put her in a bucket seat beside my bed and she stayed there until 4 a.m. last night. I'd say she only woke about 5 times until 7 a.m. when she pretty much nursed constantly until we got up at...9:45 a.m!!! For some reason dd stayed up late last night, until 10 p.m. so I guess she needed her zzz's this morning.

The other thing I'm noticing is that she's flipping on to her side and stomach to sleep. Perhaps she's more comfortable that way. We always put her flat on her back to sleep.

Anyway, 2 better nights are better than nothing.


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## chellemarie (Jan 17, 2003)

Ahha. My son is just a bit younger than your babe and he flips himself onto his belly as soon as I put him down. You'd think he'd want to sleep with his head turned completely to one side, but my guy wants to sleep on one side of his face....with one nostril against the bed.

Maybe she's just not found her comfy sleeping position yet.







Sounds like you're on to something. Good luck.


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## Mona (May 22, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Island Mommy_
*
The other thing I'm noticing is that she's flipping on to her side and stomach to sleep. Perhaps she's more comfortable that way. We always put her flat on her back to sleep.
*
I've found that DD MUST have something against her cheek. So I lay her down on her side, and have something on either side of her to bumper her as she turns/rolls from side to side.


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

dear island,

of course, i always have taken extra calcium, even though we eat a good yogurt every morning, and drink occasional milk, but i used to take the traditional ratio of calcium : magnesium, 2 : 1.

after some reading, i know that's not right for everybody.

magnesium is recommended for many different health problems, including asthma! if you go to that magnesium deficiency calamity website, you'll see a big list. not so much about pregnancy and lactation, tho.

i always got the nursing jitters when my child was having a growth spurt. you get cramps and tension when milk production takes too much mineral out of the blood in your muscles.

CHEAP: store brand magnesium costs about 2.49 for 100 tablets.

you can try different stores to see if the magnesium is different. i like the one that is a little soft and crumbly with tiny dark flecks in it.

do you think baby's circulation is good enough sitting up?

sleep well, rrr


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## pip (Apr 3, 2003)

How weird you should mention that position thing. I could never get my 8 month old to nap more than 40/50 minutes in the day. One sleep cycle and that was it.

Last week my dh looked after him for 4 days while I worked at a show (5 hours away from my baby, my longest ever, and it was awful!!) and Luka slept 2 hours for every nap!!! I later discovered that when he flipped over dh left him on his tum and just checked him regularly rather than turning him onto his back as I would have.

Right now he's just slept 2 hours for me on his tum, so I even get time to post!!!

I know the sids people are wary, but he is a very strong almost 9 month old, and on a wrapped mattress (as recommended over here) and obviously sleeps so much better this way.

Anyone else find this?


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## andreac (Jul 13, 2003)

Pip - Yup! DS would NEVER sleep happily on his back! He had the most vicious (sp) startle reflex and would always wake himself up if he was on his back. I started putting him down for naps on his belly in the basinet we kept in the living room and when we went to bed for the night, i would put him on his side (which was ok, but not as good). As soon as he could roll over, there was no keeping him on his back or his side...funny thing though, he just recently has starting sleeping on his back sometimes if he rolls over in the middle of the night. DH says he sleeps in whatever position I'm in at the time (too cute







) It was my understanding that once they can roll over in both directions (front to back and back to front) that it was ok to let them sleep on their stomachs...but I may be wrong.


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## pinkmommy (Mar 27, 2003)

One thing I will add that is supposed to help people (adults, children and babies) sleep better at night is morning sunshine. For some reason, it helps regulate sleep cycles.

My DD is 2.8 yrs old and wakes about 3 - 6 times a time on average...sometimes less, sometimes more. From the night she was born until around 13/14 months, DD literally slept IN my arms and usually attached to my breast. She nursed almost all night. If someone would have told me that I'd be doing something like that (sleeping and nursing) when I was a new mother with my first baby, I would have said they were crazy. It worked for me. DD thrived (is thriving) on so many levels. She eventually came to a point where she could sleep a bit more independantly...still right next to me in bed but not IN my arms and ON my breast.

I do notice her sleep patterns changed when she was teething or hitting various milestones.

I try to nap whenever I can. Right now, DH is coming home to work at home so I can nap. We have a 4 yr old, 2 yr old and I am 35 weeks pregnant. When it was just me and DS, I'd nap when he napped.

Glad to hear that you are seeing some positive changes. I'll add an "amen" to remember the "this too shall pass" phrase. It really is such a short time in the great scheme of things. I know it doesn't feel that way when you are dragging.


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## roseselene (Aug 3, 2003)

Its funny that you mention the position thing. DD is 9 1/2 months now and she is just going through something similar. She always slept on her back....propped up on a foam wedge because she couldn't stand to be laying FLAT. now recently she is trying to lay on her side and then rolls to her stomach, then her side...etc.etc.et.c...she is up like 100 times per night...just can't get comfortable. The doctor told us a long time ago, that they believe she has reflux, and we've been giving her maalox. I think this is why she won't lay flat. But anyway, we tried propping her up on a slightly higher pillow (not a plush pillow..very firm) and she sleeps like a dream. Also...I wanted to mention that DD is doing some fairly active teething and when she is, she is up alot, and doesn't seem to be able to get comfortable, we give her infant motrin and that seems to help. She has like 5 teeth coming in all at once, so her mouth has go to hurt.

Good luck!!
Amy


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