# "the odds" and carseat safety/risk



## i*wish (May 4, 2004)

I've been reading this forum a lot lately...I feel like I keep reading things that imply there is less risk in certain driving situations...e.g. "for short trips it'll be okay if she is (insert riskier seat situation here...FF, Boostered, whatever)....or for grandma's car we bought (insert *apparently* less safe seat here... whether it's less side impact protection or what have you). I don't understand this?
I'm speaking strictly of assuming _more risk_. I'm *not* talking about people who choose a less expensive (maybe less comfortable, no cupholders, whatever) seat for a second car...
The risk of an accident...any accident...is the _exact same_ every time we pull out of the driveway. Why do some people see it as less risky if it's a 'short trip' or a second car used less often.
It's like the lottery....you don't have a greater chance of winning because you play weekly....Every week you have the exact same chance (1/30,000,000 or whatever the pot is!).
Am I understanding this wrong??? Can someone with a degree in logic chime in here! I'm just confused...I feel like people *perceive* the risk to be smaller if it's a shorter amount of time in the car but I don't think that's true.
Enlighten me!


----------



## goodheartedmama (Feb 1, 2007)

My only thought about boosters for short trips (and just a thought since my kids aren't close to that age where it's a real issue for me), is that a child would be more able to ride in a booster seat correctly for a short 15 minute trip. The big danger of a child in a belt positioning booster is when a child cannot sit appropriately in it, but that child may have the ability to sit correctly in a booster for a few minutes.

That also may really be wrong, but I think that's why people feel safe putting a child in a booster for a really short trip when they wouldn't do it for a long trip.


----------



## Twinklefae (Dec 13, 2006)

I think this is one of those places where real life interferes with what's ideal. My DS rides RF'ing 99% of the time. I have two car seats. One of them is FF (it's for my daycare girl) When I'm transporting a child who is younger/smaller than DS, he rides FF'ing and the younger child rides in his seat.

Ideally, I would take the FF'ing seat out and flip it, but in real life there isn't always time, and DS does meet the legal minimums. It's not ideal. It is still "safe", it's just that it's "safER" to ride rf'ing.


----------



## Porcelain Interior (Feb 8, 2008)

Well sometimes a shorter trip means not going on a street with speed limits over 25-30 mph.

The freeway is a different animal- as people die on it frequently where I'm at.

We only use one seat though for all car trips.


----------



## i*wish (May 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goodheartedmama* 
My only thought about boosters for short trips (and just a thought since my kids aren't close to that age where it's a real issue for me), is that a child would be more able to ride in a booster seat correctly for a short 15 minute trip. The big danger of a child in a belt positioning booster is when a child cannot sit appropriately in it, but that child may have the ability to sit correctly in a booster for a few minutes.

That also may really be wrong, but I think that's why people feel safe putting a child in a booster for a really short trip when they wouldn't do it for a long trip.

Aha, that makes sense... thanks!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twinklefae* 
I think this is one of those places where real life interferes with what's ideal. My DS rides RF'ing 99% of the time. I have two car seats. One of them is FF (it's for my daycare girl) When I'm transporting a child who is younger/smaller than DS, he rides FF'ing and the younger child rides in his seat.

Ideally, I would take the FF'ing seat out and flip it, but in real life there isn't always time, and DS does meet the legal minimums. It's not ideal. It is still "safe", it's just that it's "safER" to ride rf'ing.

I totally get this!

I'm just curious about this and certainly not judging anyone... I actually just did this the other day which is what got me started thinking about it. A friend popped by and offered to take dd1 to his house to play with his daughter for an hour. I thought his dd was with him so I asked about the seat situation and he said 'oh, A's not with me, M can ride in her booster'. I thought about it for a nanosecond but just let her go with an 'oh, ok'.

They live 3 miles away, dd1 is 3.5/40#/39.5".

I was sick to my stomach after she drove away. It was just yucky...I felt like I didn't want to make a deal out of it...like I would be embarassed or something. I didn't realize this in the moment but once she was gone I was thinking...'holy crap, you just risked your daughter b/c you didn't want to look like a carseat geek which you totally are'. UG.

ok, flame away ladies!

ps : also, dd1 is wanting to ride with the 'big girl' buckles since visiting her cousin (4.5) in L.A. last month. Goodness she worships this girl. So this didn't help...she was _thrilled_ to report how she "got into the seat and I didn't see all the buckles and then I had to use the big buckle and it was so siting (=exciting)". So I continue my harness safety mantra to the child and *hope hope hope* she'll come to understand!!


----------



## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *i*wish* 
Aha, that makes sense... thanks!

I totally get this!

I'm just curious about this and certainly not judging anyone... I actually just did this the other day which is what got me started thinking about it. A friend popped by and offered to take dd1 to his house to play with his daughter for an hour. I thought his dd was with him so I asked about the seat situation and he said 'oh, A's not with me, M can ride in her booster'. I thought about it for a nanosecond but just let her go with an 'oh, ok'.

They live 3 miles away, dd1 is 3.5/40#/39.5".

I was sick to my stomach after she drove away. It was just yucky...I felt like I didn't want to make a deal out of it...like I would be embarassed or something. I didn't realize this in the moment but once she was gone I was thinking...'holy crap, you just risked your daughter b/c you didn't want to look like a carseat geek which you totally are'. UG.

ok, flame away ladies!

ps : also, dd1 is wanting to ride with the 'big girl' buckles since visiting her cousin (4.5) in L.A. last month. Goodness she worships this girl. So this didn't help...she was _thrilled_ to report how she "got into the seat and I didn't see all the buckles and then I had to use the big buckle and it was so siting (=exciting)". So I continue my harness safety mantra to the child and *hope hope hope* she'll come to understand!!

A lot of HBB say from 30 lbs and 3 yos. So in reality putting her child in a booster is legally ok, even if not the safest practice. Maybe they simply don't know that harnessing is safer, kwim? A lot of parents don't and they go by what the manufacturer says.


----------



## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

This is something I've wondered about, too.

I think there *is* an issue of decreased risk, because accidents happen at a rate that is per passenger mile... so if 90% of your passenger miles are via one method, and 10% via another method, then when you get in an accident, the chance you'll be traveling via method A is 9x that you will be traveling via method B.

But especially for things where the differences are so dramatic, like in a seat vs. unrestrained, or FFing a baby vs. RFing, those odds don't make me feel much better. When it's a smaller difference, like harness vs. booster for a child over 4, I can see that (but it hasn't come up for us yet; DS1 is the oldest kid in his school, and I think everyone else still rides in a harness too... though one family turned their 9-month-old FF, because "he's so big"







).


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
This is something I've wondered about, too.

I think there *is* an issue of decreased risk, because accidents happen at a rate that is per passenger mile... so if 90% of your passenger miles are via one method, and 10% via another method, then when you get in an accident, the chance you'll be traveling via method A is 9x that you will be traveling via method B.









:

We haven't hit that point yet... but when dd is 5 or 6 I can see being okay with her in a booster for her occasional rides in second and third cars, while remaining harnessed in her "main" car where she will do the majority of her "road hours"

-Angela


----------



## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

My son is 6, somewhere around 4'/50 lbs. I let him ride in a booster often-- in friends cars or in our car when we need to fit an adult or harnessed kid in the backseat. However, I prefer to have him harnessed and he *must* be harnessed for long trips where he is unlikely to sit perfectly still, without falling asleep, at high speeds, for an hour or more. He isn't unsafe in a booster, but he is safer in a harness, so we choose whether to use a carseat or booster depending on the situation.
I wouldn't, however, let my 3 yo (who's 35-40 lbs. and 38") ride in a booster, even for a short trip, because it would not be safe.


----------



## MommyJoia (Oct 31, 2007)

we just couldn't afford another 5 point harness seat that's good for over 40 lbs and I really don't like to uninstall and reinstall seats, especially with a seat belt because of all of the risk for error. My DD#1 rides in a high back booster in my husband's car. it's a two door honda accord with leather seats. The high back booster fits perfect and she has no problem getting in and out of it. She likes to feel like a big girl. My husband only takes her to the movies (less than 10 min away), or the grocery store (5 minutes away). I also use it when I car pool with friends because it is easier than the whole uninstall/reinstall deal with the nautilous. My DD#1 is almost 5 and weighs 44 lbs, so for most cars, I would have to use the seat belt to install, which can sometimes be a real pain. She _could_ be in a high back booster all of the time, but I prefer to have her harnessed as much as possible.


----------



## i*wish (May 4, 2004)

Thank you all so much for these replies. This is so interesting for me.... Because my dd is obsessed with riding in a booster, I can't stop thinking about this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goodheartedmama* 
The big danger of a child in a belt positioning booster is when a child cannot sit appropriately in it, but that child may have the ability to sit correctly in a booster for a few minutes.

Is it true that the biggest risk to a booster is that the child can't sit properly?? So if my dd was in the booster with the belt, and it *fit* her properly as far as positioning or whatever, is she close to as safe as she is with the harness? What do you know about integrated boosters? We have one in our car and I wonder how 'safe' those are? That seat belt locks up tight, I know from riding in that position!!
I don't know what the 'percentage safer' is for harness to booster...I think with rf to ff it's like 5x safer to be rf. I'm looking into CPST training b/c this stuff is fascinating!

Thanks again everyone!


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

One big thing about 5pt vs harness is just weight distribution. A seatbelt is 3 pt. A harness is 5 pt. In a crash, the forces are spread to those points- so divided by 5 in a harness, divided by 3 in a seatbelt. So, in a seatbelt there will be that much more force at each point.

Some argue though that the more give in a seatbelt can be safer. I'm not sure I buy the argument, but it's out there.

-Angela


----------



## gini1313 (Jul 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 







:

We haven't hit that point yet... but when dd is 5 or 6 I can see being okay with her in a booster for her occasional rides in second and third cars, while remaining harnessed in her "main" car where she will do the majority of her "road hours"

-Angela

That is what I think, too. Ds will be 6 in July. He rides in a Regent all of the time in either of our vehicles. But, I bought a booster for his Grandma's car, which he rides in maybe 4 times a year usually. I feel that with a child his age, he is safe in a booster, but he is SAFER in his harnessed seat, so that is where he will ride most of the time.

OTOH, if dd rides in that car, we move her seat (although grandma does have carseat, dd would have to ride ff in it). She meets the minimum requirements to ride ff (she just turned 2 and is 28 lbs), but I feel she is much safer riding rf, so ff isn't an option for her yet.

IMO, if it is a choice between not safe and safe, that is a big difference between safe and safER. I guess in a way, you are playing the odds, but I think the odds are pretty good either way, kwim?


----------



## goodheartedmama (Feb 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
One big thing about 5pt vs harness is just weight distribution. A seatbelt is 3 pt. A harness is 5 pt. In a crash, the forces are spread to those points- so divided by 5 in a harness, divided by 3 in a seatbelt. So, in a seatbelt there will be that much more force at each point.
*
Some argue though that the more give in a seatbelt can be safer. I'm not sure I buy the argument, but it's out there.*

-Angela

I'm not sure if I buy it, either. I do see their point, but I personally feel safest harnessing as long as humanly possible.


----------



## Smalls181 (May 12, 2006)

Anytime you leave your parking space, you are at risk for getting in an accident. But the longer you are in the car, the more opportunities you have for an accident.

I have drove my 3 year old around our apartment parking lot in a booster seat. She was really fighting me, and it was 1 minute going 5 MPH. Could we have gotten in a horrible accident? Of course. But I felt the risk was low enough, minute, that it wasn't worth the fight.


----------



## ChetMC (Aug 27, 2005)

DH has been in two accidents since we had kids. He was alone in the car both times, but both accidents were close to the house... one was about 1.5km and the other was about 4km. He experienced some stiffness after both accidents so if the kids had been in the car I'm sure that RF would have been better for them than FF, and harnessed would have been better than a booster with a seatbelt.

What I found interesting, is that the doctor told DH that he wouldn't have experienced the lateral movement that caused a lot of his stiffness had he been in a 5 point harness (no mention of kids or carseats, he was just talking about 5 point harnesses in general and people finding 3 points too restrictive so cars won't have 5 points anytime soon). He followed up with a discussion about 5 point harnesses in race cars and airplane cockpits, and the introduction of headrests in cars, and how expensive cars got them first.

I think that sometimes though, the "short distance" argument makes sense. One of the arguments against booster seats with very young children is that they are unlikely to keep the belt positioned properly on long rides, they fall asleep and slump in ways where the belt won't hold them properly, etc. So for short rides, where the child is likely to keep things positioned properly and isn't going to fall asleep, it isn't so bad.

It's also really hard to justify spending $300 on a seat that a child will literally sit in eight times for a total of 10 km. I don't think you can blame parents for being a little more relaxed when it comes to grandparent seats that are hardly going to be used.


----------



## bigteamug (Sep 29, 2008)

As far as the boosters vs harnesses go, there is also "submarining", slipping out from under the lap belt. Not really an issue with a harness. The new Britax Parkway booster supposedly will have something between the legs to keep kids from slipping out from under the belt.

There are lots of videos on youtube of crash dummies for harness vs booster. There is just so much more movement when they are in a booster on the vids.

Also, unless you buckle that booster in with a seat belt each time that your child is not in it (unless it is one of the latchable boosters, and installed as such), it will be a projectile in a car accident, a big, heavy one. What if you had a baby RF next to the booster and had a side-impact collision? It could do a lot of damage to them, or to any other passenger in the car, depending on how you get hit, if the car rolls, etc.


----------



## mamarootoo (Sep 16, 2008)

if i remember correctly, about 50% of all accidents happen within 5 miles of home, and about 70% happen within 10 miles of home.

no idea about serious or fatal accidents though. i seems that those would be more likely on freeways, where the speeds are higher.


----------



## Peony (Nov 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bigteamug* 
As far as the boosters vs harnesses go, there is also "submarining", slipping out from under the lap belt. Not really an issue with a harness. The new Britax Parkway booster supposedly will have something between the legs to keep kids from slipping out from under the belt.

There are lots of videos on youtube of crash dummies for harness vs booster. There is just so much more movement when they are in a booster on the vids.

Also, unless you buckle that booster in with a seat belt each time that your child is not in it (unless it is one of the latchable boosters, and installed as such), it will be a projectile in a car accident, a big, heavy one. What if you had a baby RF next to the booster and had a side-impact collision? It could do a lot of damage to them, or to any other passenger in the car, depending on how you get hit, if the car rolls, etc.

The Recaro Start has the anti-submarining bar, but it's not exactly cheap. I got one for a steal though.









I agree with all the points that have been made. DD1 is 6 and is harnessed for the vast majority of her rides, she does ride in a booster once in a while for short trips with DH. My mom has an older car so I insist that DD1 be in a harness when she rides with her. There is a huge difference in safety between a 12y car and a new one IMO when it comes to safety increases, side air bags, etc... She doesn't sit well in a booster if it's not a short trip so that is not an option for her at this point.


----------



## quietserena (Apr 24, 2006)

I haven't been in the situation yet to put DD in someone else's carseat but I'm always wondering whether taking the slower roads is safer than taking the highway.

Yeah we drive at slower speeds so any accidents are to be less severe, but if I take the highway, we get there faster so fewer chances for an accident.


----------



## just_lily (Feb 29, 2008)

I think of it this way - if we knew when an accident was about to happen, we would be able to avoid it. But we don't, and we can't.

My DF used to think I was nuts for putting my seatbelt on after getting the mail and driving half a block to our house (we have a community box, and just for the record this would be if I stop to get the mail after being out already, I don't just drive to the mailbox!). But once I told him this theory, he gets it, especially when I did it while pregnant.

But I do get the less risk part. I plan on keeping my kid RFing and then harnessed for as long as humanly possible, but I can see myself allowing her to be in a situation that is less safe (but not UNsafe) as long as she was being driven within the limits of our relatively small town, and it was during the day. Most of the speed limits are 30km (not sure the conversion, but that is the same limit as a school zone) and our community is pretty sedate.

But back to the not knowing when an accident is going to happen, it is always drunk drivers that freak me out. Totally unpredictable and you never know when you will encounter one. A few years back there was a big accident caused by a drunk driver where I was living. It happened at 11am on a Monday morning. Yikes.

I also know of people who are making less-safe choices BECAUSE of the amount of time in their car. My DF's best friend and his wife turned their 16mo FFing because "we spend so much time in the car."







:


----------

