# parenting, to each their own or up for debate?



## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

WARNING: please keep it civil. keep the UA in mind. this is a touchy subject and i would like to be able to keep this open for discussion. report posts your think are UAV and let moderators take care of it.

ETA - i mean if the topic comes up. it is beyond bizarre and inappropriate to just walk up to people and lecture them or ask them to defend themselves. do people actually do that?

parenting choices! to each their own or up for debate? should everyone just mind their own business or is it our responsibility as members of society to hold people accountable for the way they treat the young members of society? is it our right or responsibility to advocate for those ones who are unable to advocate for themselves? parenting effects more then just the children of the parents.. the way those children are raised effects how the interact with the rest of us, how they raise their children, how they treat others etc. so what do you think and why?? my (very long) explanation is below!

parenting is a taboo subject. when it comes up you are expected to say 'oh to each their own' b/c everybody is different and makes different choices and we have no right to judge.

on this site i always read about people not knowing any other way, not having enough info, not having enough support etc. how do people learn another way, get more info, ask for support etc. if we are just supposed to shut up and mind our own business?

i always agreed with this idea b/c i didn't want to have to justify my parenting choices to anyone. then i realized that the best way to test your opinions and beliefs is to have someone challenge them. if i could not sufficiently prove my point and defend my opinions in a debate with someone who disagrees then maybe i need to rethink what i am doing. after a few discussions with close friends who have no problem tearing apart my arguments i realized i actually can argue my points exceptionally well and in a non judgmental way. i have several points about why i do the things that i do and i have the factual information to back it up.

every situation is different so of course every family is different. for this reason something may make complete sense for one family and no sense at all for another. BFing for instance makes total sense for many people, it is cheaper, healthier, more convenient etc. it is probably easier for a SAHM then a WOHM but it those things still apply to many WOHM. but for a mom with Low supply supplementing might be absolutely necessary, for a mom who works and has a very hard time pumping then supplementing may be best for her family, for a mom who has to take a medication that is contraindicated for BFing should obviously FF, for someone who BFing would be traumatizing psychologically FF is the best option. for a mama whose little one has so many allergies or digestive troubles that they are healthier on a special formula that obviously is the best choice. and of course for Mamas who can't BF for a myriad of physical reasons formula is a godsend.

Babywearing is awesome for people who can do it. i totally love it and it is great when you are BFing. i also have back problems and wearing my 25lb son for extended periods of time would put me in the hospital .. so obviously a stroller might make more sense. anyone with physical problems may very well be better served by a stroller.

Co sleeping is def. not for everyone. there are tons of great reasons to do it and tons of great reasons not to. some babies wake up every thirty seconds when co sleeping, some people have babies who take up so much space they need their own king sized bed.

the ones i have trouble understanding are CIO especially for little babies, FF by choice when there is no reason it wouldn't be possible, and spanking. i just don't get it. do these fall under the to each their own category too? do we put the parents right not feel judged, not to have to be accountable for their choices, not to be questioned etc above a child's rights?

FF by choice is the only one i can see myself just saying to each their own. while i don't think it is the best choice there is it hard to argue.. for a mom already FF it may just make her feel guilty and there are so many good reasons to do it there is no way to tell if it really was by choice or by necessity.

CIO and spanking are different IMO. i know that people have a right to question my choices too and honestly i really don't mind. i am not talking legal involvement b/c that would be a catastrophe. I have logical, fact based reasons why i do the things i do. it is incredibly hard to discredit my arguments.... i have had people try.

I always try to form a logical fact based argument that supports the other side of the argument, not why no one should do it by why other options may be better for some families. BFing, Co sleeping, and baby wearing IMO have to many variables and there is no way to know for sure whether or not it is right for anyone but you and yours. CIO and Spanking are the two i cannot form a coherent argument to support.

I understand the arguments that are made in favor of them but i also see the flaws that make them incorrect. on a really simple level they use the end to justify the means without considering the reasons it "worked" and the ramifications of that. what if the parents don't know those reasons and ramifications? how are they every going to know if they are never held acceptable for those decisions?

since questioning other peoples parenting is taboo and we are expected to just mind our own business how are people ever supposed to hear the other side of the argument? parents can opt to never have their choices questioned by anyone who disagrees with them. they can just do what they want and decide everyone else is wrong without ever having to argue their points with someone who disagrees. how are people ever going to learn if they never have to defend their actions?

debate is one of the best ways to learn. you know that if your best argument for or against something dies a slow death in a debate you might be wrong. not an emotional debate of course.. but in a truly logical and fact based debate for educational purposes.

btw this is sort of my opinion on politics too... how come its ok to form your opinion but never test it in debate? if your so sure your right why wouldn't you want to try and convince others? but thats another story. religion is different.. people have a right to their beliefs since none of can really prove beyond a doubt that other people are wrong.

it seems like subjects that are 'personal' have become taboo in our society so we don't hurt each others feelings. but i wonder if this is really a positive thing. why would you be so emotional about your parenting or politics that no one has the right to question you? i would rather have my opinions challenged and find out i was wrong and change what i believe that be eternally unchallenged and never know there was a better way to do things. i guess i don't understand why we are not held accountable for our opinions. everyone says it's b/c there is no right answer. i disagree with this. i think there is often more then one right answer.... but there are definitely right answers and wrong answers. maybe i am wrong though.... i think i am about to find out









parenting effects people who cant advocate for themselves... is the 'to each their own' mentality really the best for our society?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I don't think it's an issue of what you comment on as much as HOW you comment on something.

Example: Someone I know talked about how she'd started feeding her two-week-old baby solids already. I said, very gently, "Oh, my pediatrician said to wait six months." She said, "I want him to sleep through the night." I said, in a very gentle tone, "I'd be worried that it could upset his tummy and make him sleep worse." She said, "Oh, I hadn't thought of that. Well if it doesn't help or if it seems to upset his tummy maybe I'll stop." And I took that as my cue to Let It Go.

To gently bring something up in a non-judgmental tone is OK. To keep up with it and act like you get a vote with someone else's kid isn't. Unless there's a CPS-worthy issue, you really don't get a say past gentle conversation. And even if there's a CPS-worthy issue, CPS gets the say and you don't.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i agree that its all in the presentation. if i comment i try to be really sort of blase about it. just sharing stories etc. and i try very hard not comment on things that cannot be changed unless they seem very open. BFing relationships, Birth experiences etc are things you can't really take back.. so unless they are pg i would probably not say anything at all.


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

Spanking and car safety issues are the only things I will comment on. I do not care how others parent their children.


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

So much depends both on your response style and the way in which the topic is brought up in the first place. I am cetainly not about to go up to a formula feeding, stroller-pushing, early-solids (etc./whatever) mom and go off on her about how I think all her choices are wrong.

But if that same mom approached me and asked about my sling, and we got to chatting, and she said she wished she could ditch the formula supplements, and early solids, or whatever, I could offer to let her try my sling/mai tie, and give her the name and number of the local LLL leaders I know, and give her the web address for kellymom, etc.

So, in general, i think with strangers, these choices are NOT my place to comment on. Yes, the village and all that. BUT I don't know the mom's/family's needs/challenges/problems/culture, etc.


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## LuxPerpetua (Dec 17, 2003)

I think some people enjoy debating issues more than others. It's really a personality issue, I think. My husband is one of these people, and I am not. Debating to me (on any subject) is tiring and frustrating, and almost never worth the trouble. So, I can't really agree with you on this point.

My wish is that the media would be more broad in it's portrayal of parenting. For instance, how many expectant mothers do you think have ever _seen_ a copy of Mothering magazine? Now, how about a magazine like Parenting? I was given free copies of Parenting and Parents at my prenatal appointments. Mothering? I still have never myself seen a copy in person. I prefer people being exposed to a variety of parenting viewpoints. What I would like to foresee is having more AP and natural-minded parenting views presented alongside the mainstream views in magazines, books, television, and especially in doctors offices (how many times have we all witnessed doctors giving out parenting advice as opposed to medical advice?). I personally don't think AP is right for every family situation but it would be nice for more families to be aware of it. That, to me, is the real crux of the issue.

As for actually debating with people about parenting issues, I don't go there. I will speak up about spanking and I wish we had better laws protecting children's rights (including laws against abortion and spanking) but it's not in a debating-type of tone but rather, "I don't agree with hitting children and I will not discuss this topic with someone who does." I've generally found that words change people's minds very little. The best way to influence someone is to show them by your own *actions* why your way *works* better.


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

I think when it pertains to abuse (CIO or spanking), then I have every right to loudly voice my opinion.

When it comes to proven harm to a baby (early introduction of solids/purees in a bottle/cereal in a bottle), I will let someone know the facts.

Otherwise, it's each family's choice whether BF, babywearing, co-sleeping, or other aspects work. I won't tolerate someone telling me misinformation (co-sleeping is dangerous), but otherwise there's nothing really to "debate".


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

I would never comment, unless it was a conversation where my advice or comment was being solicited, and even then I would be as diplomatic as possible.

That said, I am certainly judgmental of certain things, and if I know that someone has parenting philosophies or habits that I strongly disagree with, I will probably think less of them for it. This would really only go for things that I think are downright dangerous for the child: truly negligent parenting (no carseats, not seeking medical care for issues that are obviously serious), smoking next to the child, strict newborn scheduling... that sort of thing.


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## rainyday (Apr 28, 2006)

I didn't vote because there was no option for "none of these". Like a lot of the PPs, I might comment very gently to a friend, but I would never go up to a stranger and say something about how they parent. I might (and probably would) judge it to myself or whoever I was with, but if I don't want people comment critically on my choices, I'm not going to do it to them! Also, I live in an area where I never see people spank, so I haven't ever come across a situation with someone threatening physical violence, let alone actually doing it.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
I would never comment, unless it was a conversation where my advice or comment was being solicited, and even then I would be as diplomatic as possible.

That said, I am certainly judgmental of certain things, and if I know that someone has parenting philosophies or habits that I strongly disagree with, I will probably think less of them for it. This would really only go for things that I think are downright dangerous for the child: truly negligent parenting (no carseats, not seeking medical care for issues that are obviously serious), smoking next to the child, strict newborn scheduling... that sort of thing.

That. I don't make comments unless I'm asked. There are several things that may make me cringe, but they're not my choices and I have no right to preach to another parent for making the choices they've made.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
That said, I am certainly judgmental of certain things, and if I know that someone has parenting philosophies or habits that I strongly disagree with, I will probably think less of them for it. This would really only go for things that I think are downright dangerous for the child: truly negligent parenting (no carseats, not seeking medical care for issues that are obviously serious), smoking next to the child, strict newborn scheduling... that sort of thing.

i love that you own this. most people are this way as well but they would saw off their own arm before admitting it.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

crap i forgot car seat issues but i cant figure out how to change the poll


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## LuxPerpetua (Dec 17, 2003)

One thing I forgot to mention in my last reply is that in general I am very wary of research of any kind. My husband is a scientist and I have worked in research myself and there is always a bias, intentional or not. There's always purse strings that influence how the research is conducted and a myriad of other cultural factors that come into play so I never trust the results of any scientific study. If someone starts quoting studies at me I just change the subject, because honestly you can find statistics to back up just about anything. I've also found that people are so individualized that most research studies are inapplicable anyway. For instance, I do not like CIO, but I have a friend with 5 children who sleep trains using a gradual CIO approach starting around 3 or 4 months old. And the result? She has happy children who sleep through the night. To be honest, they don't appear to have any attachment issues. However, I know that if I had tried that with dd it would have broken her spirit (and I could not have stood by letting her cry). She's just has a very sensitive personality. I'm not trying to defend CIO techniques but I think that there are more complicated factors that research cannot take into account, and when people quote these studies they tend to over-generalize (i.e., "If you leave your baby to CIO, s/he will have attachment problems and learning disorders", or vice versa, "If you let your child sleep with you, s/he will never become independent as an adult."). For me, as I said previously, the only time I feel called upon to interject judgment into a parenting conversation is when the issue of spanking comes up because at that point I believe that a child's human right to bodily non-harm has been violated.


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## demottm (Nov 15, 2006)

I keep my opinions to myself most of the time, unless someone has asked. I also think that others should too, unless I ask. Just as I don't really want to have to defend my parenting choices, others don't really want too either. I feel as though the information is out there and anyone who is really interested will seek out the info and then start asking questions. We are each on our own individual journey as parents and to support each other at each stage is necessary. Even CIO and spanking have their place in some individuals' journies. I am not discussing their merits, I am simply saying that they are optons for some people and I respect that.

The poll did not leave an option for none of the above, so my vote was not included.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

CIO is definitely a hard one and age is a huge factor i think. There are also many many different idea of what CIO actually is. some people think CIO is letting baby cry to sleep even if it takes an hour or more. some people think it means allow baby to cry for a set amt of time... usually somewhat short (5min. 10 min. 15 min. ) and then go in and comfort or try again later or something. some people believe in looking for sleepy signs and them putting baby to bed awake.. which we didn't do for DS but probably could have... and i have seen a friend do it and her LO barely cried at all.. she turned on the little singy thing and baby made noise for a few minutes and then went to sleep. some people put baby down at their convenience and it tends to be a bit more dramatic.

so if you were going to talk about CIO you would first have to establish exactly what they mean by CIO. and most people won't admit to leaving their kid to scream for an hour even if they did do it. just saying it sounds bad.

Demottm - i didn't include none of the above b/c i figured of you didn't think any of them applied you wouldn't check them.







i think that the infomation is out there but if everyone you know parents a certain way it may not occur to you to do things differently yk?


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## tanyam926 (May 25, 2005)

I have no problem having a discussion w/someone, but a discussion involves 2 people voicing their opinions and knowledge on a subject, not just me "educating" someone.

If someone asks my opinion about something I am happy to give it in a fact based and diplomatic way along w/my personal experiences. (I am on kid #3 and am involved in my community so this happens a lot).

I never challenge, call out, or otherwise confront someone about any parenting choice they make bc I wouldn't like it done to me. (I never have, but if I ever did see someone physically abusing a child that would be an exception).

The older I get the easier it is to keep my unsolicited opinions to myself (IME, not directed at anyone else bc I haven't read every single response







).


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

I only take issue with the things that are of extreme deteriment to a child where people are taking their "right to parent" to mean they have the right to not treat a child as human.


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
I would never comment, unless it was a conversation where my advice or comment was being solicited, and even then I would be as diplomatic as possible.

That said, I am certainly judgmental of certain things, and if I know that someone has parenting philosophies or habits that I strongly disagree with, I will probably think less of them for it. This would really only go for things that I think are downright dangerous for the child: truly negligent parenting (no carseats, not seeking medical care for issues that are obviously serious), smoking next to the child, strict newborn scheduling... that sort of thing.

That...and I'm not altogether ashamed of it. IMO there is a MDC member that had a good phrase in her siggy "Judgment is not always wrong"

I don't really say anything except rant occasionally to my like minded friends...but I do think less of people that FF 100% by choice or CIO or what have you. I also do not pick those types of people to be my friends. Thankfully I have like minded friends to choose from.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I usually only comment on parenting choices if asked. I think for the most part people should keep their opinions to themselves unless asked or the suject comes up (which among a group of parents it's likely). That said I do judge certain things and I will not pursue a relationship with someone who does/doesn't do said things.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyam926* 
I have no problem having a discussion w/someone, but a discussion involves 2 people voicing their opinions and knowledge on a subject, not just me "educating" someone.

i agree with this completely. you wont get anywhere lecturing people. if someone is going to change their mind it wont be b/c the listened to a 30 minute lecture about why they are wrong.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

When you say "open to discussion" are you talking about approaching strangers who do things "wrongly" as you see it? Or discussing these misguided parents with friends, or on internet forums with like-minded strangers, or raising these topics with people who ask, or if the situation comes up. Or what, exactly?

Because these are all totally different situations.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

I say everything is up for commenting. my rule of thumb is to pay attention to when, where and how.

-online i will comment on anything. if you don't want a comment, don't put it up there. it's a forum.

-in real life, i will only comment if the person is asking for advice or if i think i can get a word in compassionately.

-only exception to #2 is if i think things are being misrepresented or people are being misled for example, if a couple mamas are saying cio is amazing and a newer mama is sitting there soaking it in, i'll speakup.

i've learned some of the best things simply by people making a comment. i don't see what the issue is. if you don't know there's a choice, how will you go looking for it online or in a book???


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama* 
When you say "open to discussion" are you talking about approaching strangers who do things "wrongly" as you see it? Or discussing these misguided parents with friends, or on internet forums with like-minded strangers, or raising these topics with people who ask, or if the situation comes up. Or what, exactly?

Because these are all totally different situations.

i was thinking of raising topics with people who ask or if the situation comes up. they are the only ones who know why they parent a certain way and the only way to let someone know there are other ways is to tell them. i think being respectful, asking questions, sharing experiences etc is a good way to learn. lecturing is pointless and rude and talking to other people about it doesn't affect anything but how you feel about it... which is fine but if your not going to talk to the person then you are only talking to make yourself feel better.

approaching strangers is weird and inappropriate. you don't know what they do or why they do it. your more likely to freak people out, turn them off completely, or make someone feel guilty for something they had no control over.

i don't see anything good coming from discussing other people with friends.. esp. mutual friends. i mean i guess you could tell a friend about something you saw or talked about but if it is a mutual friend you better be willing to take the heat for whatever you say and if it is someone they don't know i am not sure why they would care.

on the internet with like minded people is fine in a general sense i think. everyone needs to vent and sometimes it is a good way to get some perspective. it is also a good way to practice appropriate and effective ways of voicing our opinions so that we can have a discussion without being insulting and rude. it is also limiting if everyone agrees with you.. differing opinions help us learn and gain perspective.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I didn't vote.
I don't think people will never change and grow if I don't give my opinion or question everything they do.
I don't think these are things I feel are so clearly "this is right for everyone" and "this is wrong for everyone". I don't think they are off limits for discussion ever but unless the other person is asking for advice or wants to discuss the topic I'm going to keep my opinions to myself.

I don't discuss parenting a lot IRL.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyzombiecat* 
I didn't vote.
I don't think people will never change and grow if I don't give my opinion or question everything they do.
I don't think these are things I feel are so clearly "this is right for everyone" and "this is wrong for everyone". I don't think they are off limits for discussion ever but unless the other person is asking for advice or wants to discuss the topic I'm going to keep my opinions to myself.

I don't discuss parenting a lot IRL.

if someone gave you advice would you say something along the lines of "oh we do what works for our family" or "thanks for your opinion" or would you consider that an appropriate situation in which to give your opinion? not critical btw.. i'm just curious. b/c i agree that in most situations different things are right for different people so you don't want to railroad people but if they offer you advice would you think it was ok to offer your own opinion or no? i know there are many right ways and right reasons that are specific to each family, is there anything that you would never consider right? for me that is spanking but i know some might disagree


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## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

A lot of my close friends had babies after I did. I share my own experiences with breastfeeding, CLW, co-sleeping, ECing, babywearing, etc. I share any resources I have...books, studies, etc and let people know how well things have worked for our family.

Most of my friends don't follow through on this kind of stuff like I want them to. At least they have the info though.

Also, I would never in a million years thought to continue breastfeeding my first child past 1YO if my neighbor hadn't mentioned nursing her child as a toddler. This normalized the behavior enough for me and she is still nursing at 3.5!


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LuxPerpetua* 
My wish is that the media would be more broad in it's portrayal of parenting. ... What I would like to foresee is having more AP and natural-minded parenting views presented alongside the mainstream views in magazines, books, television, and especially in doctors offices (how many times have we all witnessed doctors giving out parenting advice as opposed to medical advice?). I personally don't think AP is right for every family situation but it would be nice for more families to be aware of it. That, to me, is the real crux of the issue.









:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 
only exception to #2 is if i think things are being misrepresented or people are being misled for example, if a couple mamas are saying cio is amazing and a newer mama is sitting there soaking it in, i'll speakup.

If I consider commenting, it's not usually for the benefit of the person I'm having a discussion with, but for the by stander, listening in, who isn't participating likely because they haven't formed an opinion yet. I learned a lot about parenting and baby care by attending mothers' groups and watching the other moms and listening to their discussions. Luckily, it was a fairly crunchy bunch, with nursing past a year, co sleeping, no formula, babywearing, etc. not being unusual.

I have a hard time not commenting if I think someone is spreading misinformation, though. And I find that there is a double standard (though it might be my bias towards AP). I've heard women talk about the non-AP things they had to do, as though there were no other choice, and if someone suggests an alternative, they get upset and say it's no one else's business. But people can jump to conclusions about my parenting and challenge the safety of cosleeping or babywearing or delaying solids, and I have to just smile and answer them politely, and if I point out the problems that these things solve, I'm somehow attacking them.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

OH yeah, if I'm in a group and moms are talking about something, I'll say, "Oh, well what I do is . . . . " Or something. I won't just sit and not contribute. That's a different situation than giving someone unsolicited advice when you see them doing something you disagree with, though. And yes I do internally judge, and I make my choices based on that - like how much time I want to spend with someone, whether my dd can play at their house, etc. But that's an internal judgment.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

when I comment its not for the sake of bystanders, myself, or the offender. its for the sake of a child who is being treated like than human.


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

I couldn't vote since my option wasn't there. I only talk about parenting choices when I'm asked. It's not a normal conversation I would have on purpose. Now if somebody asks me what worked for me, then of course I'll tell them, but I don't bring it up. Even if somebody is talking about their choices and they differ from mine, I don't add to the conversation.


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

I already posted but wanted to clarify, I do not offer my opinion ever really...because I get sick and flipping tired of DH's family criticizing everything that DH and I do.

"Oh, isn't she a bit old to still do **that**?" Re bf'ing (even though my DS bf'ed until he was over 2)

"Oh, she looks so uncomfortable to be in her carseat like that! I think she'd rather be the other direction to see the world!" (Re my DD still rf)

"I feel so bad for such-and-such homeschooled child! They have no friends because their homeschooled. Ya know, DH's Uncle/Brother thinks that homeschooling is CHILD ABUSE, and I mostly agree with him!" (even though they know we intend to homeschool)

"I'm so glad that I got to feed B and M and K." (since my kids were bf'ed and never took a bottle)

"C and J let B cry for a little bit and ya know, he will just climb up the stairs when he's ready for bed! They just shut the door and he goes right to sleep." (like it's the most wonderful thing ever **shudder**, to which I reply "Oh, I could NEVER let my kids cry in a cold dark room wanting me, that's just so sad..." I was tempted to pull the CHILD ABUSE line since C is the one who said hs'ing is child abuse)

etc etc etc...


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## Quinalla (May 23, 2005)

I would comment on any of those topics if they came up, but it is as others have said it is how you comment that is most important. Parenting is a sensitive topic, so you have to be more careful about discussing it IMO, but you can have a civil discussion about anything if all parties are willing. If you make your comment and the other person/people are not open to listening on that topic, then there isn't any point in continuing further with them, though others did point out if there are people listening that aren't speaking, it can be worth continuing for their benefit. Also, you have to be willing to listen too which can be hard. I try to be good about that myself, but I do not always succeed.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i forgot circ! thats a big one but its one i pretty much never talk about since infant foreskin isn't exactly everyday mom talk. ok well i don't talk about any of this most of the time b/c i don't know any moms IRL whose kids are younger then mine.. my friends pg but thats really it.

soooo circ.... would you, have you, and how on earth would it come up?


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

everyone keeps saying if it comes up or someone asks their opinion.... how else would you talk about it? i can't imagine ambushing some poor unsuspecting person who is minding their own business at the grocery store or something. has this happened to any of you? b/c that would inappropriate IMO ... not to mention just weird.


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## Keria (Sep 27, 2008)

Didn't vote , but my answer is that it depends on the situaation and the people involved, I think it's NEVER OK to go to a complete stranger in the mall and yell at them for not BF, BW, letting their baby cry or whatever they are doing that is wronk in your parenting eyes.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

I make it a point not to comment on others choices about any of these things unsolicited. If a friend ASKS my opinion, I'll give it; likewise on MDC threads. But not otherwise. I make judgements for myself, I'll make supportive comments to friends, I might not be interested in being friends with people who do some of them, but I don't make comments. It has to be illegal before I would comment unsolicitedly.

On the CIO, I've refused to visit family members currently doing CIO. It would be too emotionally distressing for me to listen to a baby cry. But DD has 5 yo old friends who CIO as babies. I'm not going to bar the friendship or ignore the mom. If she's pg, I let her know we never did CIO and look, DD sleeps fine in her own bed, to get the gears turning. (And the mom was talking about how hard CIO was and how she was dreading it).


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
everyone keeps saying if it comes up or someone asks their opinion.... how else would you talk about it? i can't imagine ambushing some poor unsuspecting person who is minding their own business at the grocery store or something. has this happened to any of you? b/c that would inappropriate IMO ... not to mention just weird.

Um, YES! There are threads about it all the time! It's happened to me some.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Believe it or not circumcision does come up and I make sure to be very clear that it's wrong and there's no way in hell I'd let someone take a scapel to my sons' (or daughter's for that matter) genitals nor is it my right to do so. Circumcision is not just another parenting decision. Circumcision also isn't a crunchy versus mainstream thing but a human right's violation. Most people I know who leave their sons intact aren't crunchy or AP really.
I do make myself bring it up with anyone I know who is going to have children, it's too important not to imo.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom* 
Um, YES! There are threads about it all the time! It's happened to me some.

well yeah but i just never imagined it happened so much... i mean thats just so inappropriate.


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

I haven't read the responses yet, but I voted for the last choice with the caveat that I will only discuss when asked for my opinion. For example, this morning, a coworker just returned from maternity leave and during the course of our baby discussion, she told me she was FFing by choice. She didn't ask my opinion, so I kept my mouth shut and continued with our conversation. Had she asked me for advice or for my opinion, I would have commented, but she didn't, so I didn't.

If I thought someone was crossing the line into abuse, however, I would say something. Immediately.


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## Litcrit (Feb 23, 2009)

Everything is up for debate in the abstract (e.g. a mom who switched to formula at 6 months tells me there's nothing in breastmilk that benefits babies after that; I counter the argument with facts; nothing personal, nothing concrete).

But I'm extremely uncomfortable with telling people what to do with their children - I don't really know their children. If asked, or if an opinion is phrased in abstract terms, I'll tell a mom who spanks her daughter when she hits other kids that violence is likely to breed more violence, not less, strictly logically. If not, I may just shut up because I don't know her daughter, I'm not her mom, I'm not having the struggles she is. Unless there's REAL abuse, I'll shut up.


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## ledzepplon (Jun 28, 2004)

I think we all have a responsibility to make sure children are not being endangered, abused, or neglected, and to offer helpful advice when it seems appropriate. Beyond that, I do not think we ought to _impose_ our styles on others.

That said, I don't see anything wrong with sharing information. For example, if a mother you knows mentions that her Dr. said she should wean her one year old, it would be great to let her know that WHO recommends 2 years, or to share the benefits of nursing an older baby.

Each child and parent has a unique personality, and each family has its own dynamic. To assume that there's a one-size fits all answer to parenting just doesn't make sense to me.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Yeah, I noticed circ wasn't on the list.

Do I _disapprove_ of many of the above parenting issues? You betcha. Would I comment? Depends very largely on context, and the likelihood isn't necessarily related to the strength of my convictions on the topic. It'd depend more on how shy I was feeling, how well I knew and liked the person, how well I thought they'd react to discussion... for instance, I've brought up circ to MIL and SIL, and (as I should have expected) SIL responded WAY better; whereas with MIL it was more or less a waste of time.

I do think a situation needs to be pretty severe to warrant harrassing people, especially if one doesn't know the circumstances behind what they're doing. There's no call to, say, give a FF mother in a mall dirty looks or BFing info - for all you know she has IGT, and even if her motives for FF are downright ghastly it's unlikely a nasty comment would provoke her to relactate, KWIM?

So yes, I do believe humans have the intellectual responsibility to justify and question their parenting decisions. That doesn't mean I believe I have the God-given task of forcing that issue; but politeness has to be balanced out by the thought of the child's safety and wellbeing, within "live and let live" reason. So it's complex!


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## lovebug (Nov 2, 2004)

I would say something on CIO, BFing, and spanking. However on all it would depend on the situation.

CIO- if I saw a baby just screaming and no one doing anything about it I might say something like. 'oh are you going to pick him/her up?" or if I knew the person I would say something like "oh do you need my help, I can hold the baby"

Spanking- this one is touchy! i am hesitant to tell my real feelings on this one. I A) do not want to offend and B) feel that what I say to anyone about this is my business&#8230; i will however say that i will never hesitate to call anyone in any place out on the floor about this topic!

BFing- for the most part on this I say to each their own. I WILL however correct anyone that is wrong in their statistics or info. i have and will continue to correct those that say BFing is not best or the same as FFing, state the right facts if they are 'wrong' on what long the recommended age to stop in and I will always stand up for child lead weaning. Ie: when people say that it is damaging to the child to be BFed at such and such age!


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

this is something i have always been interested in. when i was fighting my doctor on an unnecessary c section the only two women i know who had natural child births (one in a flipping birth center in the 80's) told me to listen to the doctor b/c he would only do a c section if it was necessary and to not be a hero b/c childbirth hurts.







i thought it tickled

when i was Bfing and struggling and debating the meds everyone including 4 different women who BF their kids past a year.. one of them over 2 yrs told me that it was up to me, that BF was a lot of work and being a young mom was hard enough, that it really didn't matter and that it was up to me.

well for the love of all that is holy i wish they would have flipping said what they actually thought. one of them, when i said i wish someone would have encouraged me to keep trying at bfing, said she would have if she had known i wanted her too.









16 months later i am coming to terms with the birth and am ok with FF... but it took me a long time to get there and i might have done things differently if people had been more concerned with sharing what they know and experienced and less concerned with being politically correct. sheesh! how do you know if no one tells you?


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## pauletoy (Aug 26, 2007)

Where's the "I mind my own business" option?

I don't like people offering parenting advice therefore I don't dole out parenting advice.

To each his own is my motto.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovebug* 
BFing- for the most part on this I say to each their own. I WILL however correct anyone that is wrong in their statistics or info. i have and will continue to correct those that say BFing is not best or the same as FFing, state the right facts if they are 'wrong' on what long the recommended age to stop in and I will always stand up for child lead weaning. Ie: when people say that it is damaging to the child to be BFed at such and such age!

me and my Formula feeding self do this too. it really confuses people when you are holding a bottle and correcting their Bfing info, quoting the WHO, and telling them babies have the right to NIP.







those who can do, those who can't teach.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pauletoy* 
Where's the "I mind my own business" option?

I don't like people offering parenting advice therefore I don't dole out parenting advice.

To each his own is my motto.

i can't change the poll i tried already.


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## Cinder (Feb 4, 2003)

The only one of those I feel is actually bad or wrong to do to a child and NO one should be allowed to do it is spanking, the rest, to each his own, I brestfed my kids for 4 years, 23 months, and 16 months (I'm positive he weaned due to pregnancy and wouldn't of otherwise), but I still don't believe it is really that much better than formula, breastfeeding to me just comes down to easier...I refuse to let me kids cry themselves to sleep, and if you are in my house, I wouldn't let your child cio either, I just can't handle it...but if it's what you choose to do for your kids in your house, I don't care, I cried myself to sleep and don't feel in the least bit scarred by it. We do a selective and delayed vaccine schedule, but I'm ok with both no vaccines and all vaccines on schedule, whatever you think is best.... Solids I think the babies opinion matters most, if your 3 month old has all the readiness signs and is obviously starving, then feed them, if your 9 month old still wants breast milk only, then don't feed them (I've been in both situations...well, we made him hold off till 4 months and she didn't eat till 15 months, but, close enough), I do not at all believe in one size fits all parenting, I think the choices we have made are right for OUR family, not for everyone.

Now on the issue of just walking up to a stranger in public to talk about their choices, obviously never, and yes, I've had people do that...someone asked me in a borders bathroom if I was going to breastfeed (I said "no, that's gross" and walked away, cause, umm holy rude...at that point in time I was 5ish months pregnant and still breastfeeding my 15 month old), I've also had people hand me pamphlets about not-circing (wtf? how do you even know I'm having a boy, and no, none of them are circd), and someone berate me for my toddler asking for milk in a store cause "dairy is not healthy for humans"...she was like 11 months old, obviously she had never had dairy, she wanted to nurse...but, I just walked away in those situations without saying anything, though I probably looked at them like they had 2 heads. We've since moved to a less liberal area (we were in ann arbor) and now I get questions about if slings are bad for babies, and looks like they have never seen someone nurse before in their lives, or a woman told me I could not nurse in the children's section of borders cause her (looked like 3 year old) son might see me doing it, and that's wrong...I kept nursing...


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## zjande (Nov 4, 2002)

Isn't it interesting how different our feelings, ideals & judgments can be? I've found this thread pretty fascinating.

It's weird, but the only things on the list that I really feel passionate about are CIO, FF by choice, & baby wearing (I cringe to no end seeing parents that let their baby practically live in baby seats and/or propping a bottle in the stroller). I mean passionate like I don't think I'd be comfortable being good friends with someone who did any of those things. Otherwise, everything else on the list I think is just a personal parenting decision that doesn't fill me with passion either way.

I _would_ have put a check mark next to "having an elective c-section" (for no medical reason at all) had that been a choice.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

you cant nurse in the childrens section







where should you have been? PG and Birth, Health and wellness, Cooking and special diets?


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## lovebug (Nov 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
i can't change the poll i tried already.

i think you should make up a thread with those choices in them and send people their! THIS THREAD is so interesting!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
me and my Formula feeding self do this too. it really confuses people when you are holding a bottle and correcting their Bfing info, quoting the WHO, and telling them babies have the right to NIP.







those who can do, those who can't teach.









yeah i bet!







well just think of the looks i get I DONT HAVE KIDS







, but with that said i do have strong ideas and have looked LOTs up oh and MDC







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zjande* 
Isn't it interesting how different our feelings, ideals & judgments can be? I've found this thread pretty fascinating.


I agree! 100%







:







:


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i have discovered that people are more likely to listen to me about BFing then they would be to someone who has never FF. i, as a formula feeding mama, am obviously not one of those weird BFing extremists and thus i am reliable.







i feel like a mole sometimes







but i can speak to BFing and FFing from experience (admittedly some of the BFing is only in theory but you all have experience and thats where i get my theories!) and i can tell them why i will do things differently next time around.

its not usually the pro bfing stuff thats gets people... its why i hate FF and wouldn't do it again unless i have to. it is dispelling the myth that FF is somehow easier then BFing. throwing money down the toilet, screaming constipation until you find the right formula, endless bottles and nipples to wash, and feeling like a pack mule just to go to the grocery store is apparently very unappealing to people







go figure.


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## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

I think my thoughts have been largely coloured by my experiences of being "educated" by "well meaning" people in my early days of motherhood. I have a poor milk supply due to various issues and with my first seemed to have some sort of sign visible to a lot of moms who had to "educate" me about BF and FF and how I was going to end up damaging my child forever. Now on top of me being PP, I had already had a mega dose of guilt because my supply stunk. I can probably rattle off more about ways to stimulate breast milk than many midwives and by 2 weeks PP, I had an army of support, consultants, LLL folks etc. Anyhow, by about 3 months my milk petered out and most of the AP people trying to help didn't. And sad to say many were outright antagonistic, saying that I was selfish for not resorting to surgery or seriously drastic measures to try and fix my condition. I still believe to this day that it seriously aggrevated my PPD.

When people look at me, they might see a woman FF a 6 month old or younger and using a stroller and according to some folks in some past threads, that's enough to write me off. What they don't know is this backstory and the fact that extended baby wearing puts me in agony, especially shortly after birth as my hips really are painful during pregnancy and for about 6 months afterwards.

Anyhow...what has helped me the most grow as a mother is a group of friends who just parent, lovingly, will offer all the ideas in the world if they're asked, will offer their homes or arms if needed and will otherwise reserve judgment.

My issues were CIO and spanking, but I often find that more often than not the parent is just out of options. So many times people are told to CIO by those they love and/or respect as kid authorities. Spanking is still legal here and a few of my friends have been known to spank their kids once in a while, I definitely don't agree with it, they know it's something I don't practice and why.

So, I do believe there is a way to say "This is what worked for me" if asked, or somehow gently segueway it into the conversation, without being preachy or judgmental. I think people who judge mothers quickly off the bat aren't practicing respecting people very well and I cannot really be a part of that crowd.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovebug* 
Spanking- this one is touchy! i am hesitant to tell my real feelings on this one. I A) do not want to offend and B) feel that what I say to anyone about this is my business&#8230; i will however say that i will never hesitate to call anyone in any place out on the floor about this topic!

this one is hard for me too. i would definitely say something to someone trying to hit their kid in front of me... but mostly just that i don't think its necessary and if they insist on doing it to go elsewhere. i struggled with this b/c people say it to BFing mamas and i think its horrible.. but i decided that it is different b/c everyone eats and people should get over it. but no one should have to watch unnecessary violence.

my superficial reason if asked is b/c i think it is wrong and unnecessary. if pushed a bit further i will say that if you hit your spouse its domestic violence, if you hit your neighbor its assault, if you hit your dog it is animal cruelty but if you hit your kid its discipline. the first three you will get a fine at the very least and jail time at worst...a whole bunch of jail time for a repeat offender.

my reasons for why it is unnecessary and detrimental from a discipline point of view are more complex and i rarely go into it with people i am not close too. i have talked to close friends about it and talked most of them out of their pro spanking mindset (the first one if pg now so it was hypothetical before..which as it turns out it a lot easier) the ones whose parents hit them even beyond what could be considered *reasonable* spanking convinced the ones that i couldn't convince with pure logic. this all came up when i got pg...


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
everyone keeps saying if it comes up or someone asks their opinion.... how else would you talk about it? i can't imagine ambushing some poor unsuspecting person who is minding their own business at the grocery store or something. has this happened to any of you? b/c that would inappropriate IMO ... not to mention just weird.

when I see a child treated worse then it is legal to treat a dog I say something whether my opinion is asked or not. Again, not for the sake of the offender, myself, or bystanders, but for the sake of the child who is being treated less than less than human. I don't care if its legal to treat your child worse then a dog, I'm still going to stay something about it. Thats the only thing though. Like others, with other issues I will say what I do and why it works for me if it comes up in discussion if I think its necessary. sometimes I just nod and listen to what they say, but if they want to know what I do, or they are looking for another way, or there is someone else there who hasn't made their decision one way or the other then I will share.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joyster* 
When people look at me, they might see a woman FF a 6 month old or younger and using a stroller and according to some folks in some past threads, that's enough to write me off. What they don't know is this backstory and the fact that extended baby wearing puts me in agony, especially shortly after birth as my hips really are painful during pregnancy and for about 6 months afterwards.









i used to worry about this too.. i still do sometimes. DS is older now so i don't worry about FF as much... but i still feel some guilt. actually after i had weaned and wasn't so frustrated, in pain, etc. i tried really hard to re lactate.

i could not get DS back to the breast very well.. he did some but only frilling standing up. i actually let someone have it hardcore for asking me to nurse in the bathroom. i had worked my butt off to get this kid to nurse and he only latched on occasionally and god help me i was not going to let some guy in a restaurant make me feel uncomfortable or ashamed. and i sure as heck wasn't going to un latch him and walk to the bathroom to nurse.. aside from my personal beliefs on that he probably wouldn't have relatched. i think the guy probably needed therapy... and i doubt he will ever approach a nursing mother ever again. and the people in the table behind me clapped









but i pumped and pumped and tried to get him to latch, gave him the BM i could pump with a SNS if i could and in a bottle if i couldn't eventually i had to cut myself some slack. i was exhausted, frustrated, behind on houswork, and starting to feel like a failure. i pumped what i could for a long time. now he is on formula pretty much exclusively (well he is 16 mos so he eats food too) and i feel like i tried as hard as i could and then some to nurse .. and then re start nursing after the first time around. it was a mess, i was miserable... and something needed to change.

but its hard to say all of that to the woman who gives you a dirty look at the store or the mom who rolls her eyes at the park. but sometimes i want to say something... and not in a nice way either.


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## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 







i used to worry about this too.. i still do sometimes. DS is older now so i don't worry about FF as much... but i still feel some guilt. actually after i had weaned and wasn't so frustrated, in pain, etc. i tried really hard to re lactate.
.....
but i pumped and pumped and tried to get him to latch, gave him the BM i could pump with a SNS if i could and in a bottle if i couldn't eventually i had to cut myself some slack. i was exhausted, frustrated, behind on houswork, and starting to feel like a failure. i pumped what i could for a long time. now he is on formula pretty much exclusively (well he is 16 mos so he eats food too) and i feel like i tried as hard as i could and then some to nurse .. and then re start nursing after the first time around. it was a mess, i was miserable... and something needed to change.

but its hard to say all of that to the woman who gives you a dirty look at the store or the mom who rolls her eyes at the park. but sometimes i want to say something... and not in a nice way either.

Thanks for the hug, it's certainly appreciated and it's a hard topic for me. Hugs to you too. I still feel guilt, not so much for DS1 who is a too bright for his own good, healthy 3 year old, but DS2 who hasn't had the best health, isn't walking and isn't talking. Actually, yeah, I beat myself up about that a lot. I was with two friends on Friday night and they were talking about one of their kids, the same age as DS2 and her challenges, but her progress and it was lightyears beyond my guy. I had to keep myself from breaking down and if I did and told my friends that I believed my guy was not hitting his milestones because I couldn't nurse, they would rip my head off for being so hard on myself, (gotta love 'em), but still, it chews me up a lot. And then every so often you get someone who is ready to judge me and all that protection and thick skin I thought I've built up vapourizes.

Anyhow, sorry for the threadjack rest of the folks, I just hope opening up a little as to quick judgments or even "education" can really not help. I was thinking about the great teachers I've had, and all of them took into account who they were teaching, what their experiences were, what their prior knowledge, etc. So to go and just start educating without rhyme or reason or any idea of who you're educating and what they've been through may be working away from your goal.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

this is why i think it is possible if you are careful. and why i think Bfing is difficult unless you know the person really well.. or if they are pg for the first time. i found that people liked to talk about parenting.. but only if you agree with them. like if i am chatting with someone who is telling me how she doesn't see the point in BFing, or thinks people who co sleep are endangering their kids, or thinks spanking is the only way to discipline i feel like i have to say something but i can't say something ykwim?

i mean these people are telling me all about what they think is right but i know if i do anything other then smile and nod they will say 'to each their own' real quick.. even though they spent the previous five minutes telling me they disagree with my parenting completely... to each his own would imply that they also not share their opinions.

to each their own is often followed by 'but you really should think about it' or other advice i didn't ask for and was told not to give them. i feel like i should be able to respond without getting shut down... i don't sit there and tell people what i think is right b/c i don't know what they think and i don't want people to judge before they know me.. yk?

it doesn't make sense that someone can sit there and talk for a half hour about what they do, why they do it, and why other people are wrong and then say "o to each their own" if you try and say anything other then wow you are so right continue sharing your wonderfulness. how does that make any sense? when they are talking its just talking but if you say you do things differently its a disagreement and a judgement.


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## Cinder (Feb 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
you cant nurse in the childrens section







where should you have been? PG and Birth, Health and wellness, Cooking and special diets?









probably anywhere her precious kid wouldn't be exposed to such horrors as breasts!


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## 2pinks (Dec 20, 2007)

Unless there is "real" neglect I mind my own business. I don't like people giving me parenting advice so I don't do it to others.

I will correct any misinformation that is out there, especially irt breastfeeding and car seat safety.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

lol i should have put car seat safety too! thats a minor thing for some people and a huge issue for others. i think there is more misinformation out there about carseat safety then any other parenting issue combined.. and that one is sort of a biggie.


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## SunshineJ (Mar 26, 2008)

I tend to mind my own business. Oh before I had kids I *knew* exactly what was right and how to parent. And I was sure in those beliefs until I had 2 children that broke darn near every rule and provided proof to just about every exception out there! For example breastfeeding only? Sounds great until no one knows your child is tongue tied before 19 months and he can't nurse and will starve unless you feed him formula. Add in a major infection from the c/s incision with non-bf friendly meds (because he's already on formula, who goes back to bf?) and yeah, that didn't happen. Not to mention a medical condition that would've landed me in the hospital if DH couldn't have taken some of the feeding turns when ds was _literally_ awake every hour and a half for the first 7 weeks hysterical with hunger! But thanks to those who saw fit to harrass and condemn me for months later!









If I'm specifically asked I'll provide my perspective but you know, I don't know what people are going through, what their situation is, what issues they may or may not be facing and what impact my unsolicited judgement will have on them. And unless their child is in iminent danger, it's none of my business.


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

I think all these subjects can be discussed in a respectful manner and everyone could benefit from it. Maybe except CIO and spanking, which I see as being abusive and for which I don't see any arguments.

But I would have appreciated if someone approached me while I was wearing ds (I didn't know how to use my sling and gave up very quickly); I would also appreciate a good discussion on vaccinations (ds is fully vaccinated and although I've read some articles and Dr Sears's book, I would still have him vaccinated, but I'd listen to a different opinion with an open mind).

Oh, and also I had no idea that I could have kept ds RF longer than one year, I thought I was required to turn his carseat FF.

And I'd also like to think that I had some positive influence on my cousins and friends who had babies and breastfed them for one year each. So not all parenting advice is negative. If I don't like it, I don't follow it. Once I was complaining about my 1 y/o terrible sleep habits and I had a playgroup supervisor tell me to CIO, I just replied, sorry, this is not an option for us, and the discussion remained civil.


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## battymama (Jan 15, 2008)

The only 2 i put where cio and spanking as these are abusive. However i dont berate or judge others i try and lead by example







I think if i am gentle and loving and respectful to both other adults and children and my own child then it will hopefully rub off


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

If I were a mom who had her car seat in wrong I know I personally would like for someone to point it out to me and help me get it right. I don't mind when people share opinions on aything really, I just only take the advice if its going to be safer for my child. If someone things I should hit my child of course Im not going to take their advice because I refuse to intentionally abuse my child in any way for any purpose.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i see people all the time who don't have their car seats in correctly or aren't using them at all... i always wonder if they know.. but disagree or they just don't realize. i am not a huge fan of the "its only a few minutes we don't need a car seat" thing and i know some people are... so i don't usually say anything b/c i worry they will just blow me off.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

people always tell me to turn DS around.. apparently there is no need for him to be RF and he would be better if he were FF and not so squished







... ok?


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## benj (Jun 4, 2009)

I get enough crap from other people as it is, it's much easier just to mind my own business. Lazy/indifferent maybe, but I don't need it.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benj* 
I get enough crap from other people as it is, it's much easier just to mind my own business. Lazy/indifferent maybe, but I don't need it.









i'm sorry people drive you nuts. you could do what i do and wear headphones whenever possible (books on tape..







) or try and look surly.

don't combine the headphones and the surliness though or people will apparently think you are a criminal. <--- this is courtesy of my best friends little brother.. and mine for all intents and purposes. he's probably wrong though. people think he's a criminal b/c its true... the only time headphones have anything to do with it is when they find a stolen pair stuffed down his pants.









i don't comment when i know people are just going to argue, or when they obviously think they are right. sometimes i ask them if they just want to spout their own advice or if they intend to listen to my response. i have very little patience for people who want to talk to me but don't want to listen when i disagree with them.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Why do you feel the need to get into an "argument" or "debate" with anyone over parenting?

Honestly, when you feel a burning desire to get into an argument or debate with anyone over anything, generally you're not going to change anyone's mind because you are taking a combative, aggressive stance from the start.

When was the last time, honestly, that someone being aggressive and combative made you change your mind about something rather than make you just want to circle the wagons and tell them to shove off?

I don't find parenting a taboo subject in our culture. We have tons of magazines devoted to parenting. It's a constant subject on message boards and TV shows. Turn on any given news talk station, and you will hear a ton of people complaining about other people's parenting, and how if only we did things <insert philosophy of choice>, then everyone's kids would be smarter/nicer/ethical/blah blah blah.

I DO think that people become very defensive when talking about parenting because they are surrounded with a culture that attacks and berates and picks apart every single thing that you do in raising children. Parenting has become a huge one-upsmanship game, from the mommy wars to arguing if the good parents are really bad and the bad parents are really good.

Some people really don't like to debate. Generally those people don't like to talk about ANYTHING debatable, from politics to religion to parenting. Some of the people who love to talk about those things a lot probably should shut up occasionally when impassioned, lest they stick their foot in their mouth up to their butt cheek (I feel empowered to say that because I have stuck my foot in my mouth even further).

Parenting is not a "taboo" subject--but it IS one where most people really don't care to hear opinions/practices different from their own. In my opinion, there is a BIG difference.


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## lovebug (Nov 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
this one is hard for me too. i would definitely say something to someone trying to hit their kid in front of me... but mostly just that i don't think its necessary and if they insist on doing it to go elsewhere. i struggled with this b/c people say it to BFing mamas and i think its horrible.. but i decided that it is different b/c everyone eats and people should get over it. but no one should have to watch unnecessary violence.

my superficial reason if asked is b/c i think it is wrong and unnecessary. if pushed a bit further i will say that if you hit your spouse its domestic violence, if you hit your neighbor its assault, if you hit your dog it is animal cruelty but if you hit your kid its discipline. the first three you will get a fine at the very least and jail time at worst...a whole bunch of jail time for a repeat offender.

my reasons for why it is unnecessary and detrimental from a discipline point of view are more complex and i rarely go into it with people i am not close too. i have talked to close friends about it and talked most of them out of their pro spanking mindset (the first one if pg now so it was hypothetical before..which as it turns out it a lot easier) the ones whose parents hit them even beyond what could be considered *reasonable* spanking convinced the ones that i couldn't convince with pure logic. this all came up when i got pg...









i agree!









here is my view- if i was never shown MDC or the ideas that are here i would prob have done a lot of what is on the list.







my mom and dad are very AP in a way however society is NOT that way and truly we learn more from that then our parents








had i not ran into MDC and all you awesome mamas i would be as mainstream and the next!

so THANK GOT! because it all make so much sense!


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
Why do you feel the need to get into an "argument" or "debate" with anyone over parenting?

Honestly, when you feel a burning desire to get into an argument or debate with anyone over anything, generally you're not going to change anyone's mind because you are taking a combative, aggressive stance from the start.

When was the last time, honestly, that someone being aggressive and combative made you change your mind about something rather than make you just want to circle the wagons and tell them to shove off?

I don't find parenting a taboo subject in our culture. We have tons of magazines devoted to parenting. It's a constant subject on message boards and TV shows. Turn on any given news talk station, and you will hear a ton of people complaining about other people's parenting, and how if only we did things <insert philosophy of choice>, then everyone's kids would be smarter/nicer/ethical/blah blah blah.

I DO think that people become very defensive when talking about parenting because they are surrounded with a culture that attacks and berates and picks apart every single thing that you do in raising children. Parenting has become a huge one-upsmanship game, from the mommy wars to arguing if the good parents are really bad and the bad parents are really good.

Some people really don't like to debate. Generally those people don't like to talk about ANYTHING debatable, from politics to religion to parenting. Some of the people who love to talk about those things a lot probably should shut up occasionally when impassioned, lest they stick their foot in their mouth up to their butt cheek (I feel empowered to say that because I have stuck my foot in my mouth even further).

Parenting is not a "taboo" subject--but it IS one where most people really don't care to hear opinions/practices different from their own. In my opinion, there is a BIG difference.


i don't think anyone thinks being aggressive is a good idea. and it is def. taboo to have an opinion on parenting. we are supposed to accept what others do without comment. fine for most things but spanking and Circ are hard to stomach

plus as i said up thread i wish someone had said something more then "theres no right choice and its up to you" when i was struggling with bfing .. no one wanted to be politically incorrect and actually have an opinion.. but i could have used some information, opinions, and support.

and i think that if someone feels it is necessary to comment on my parenting choices they should not be allowed to say "to each his own" when i disagree with them. if they don't want to hear anything but agreement then don't give me advice or comment on my parenting b/c i will tell you the truth whether you agree with it or not.


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## benj (Jun 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 







i'm sorry people drive you nuts. you could do what i do and wear headphones whenever possible (books on tape..







) or try and look surly.

don't combine the headphones and the surliness though or people will apparently think you are a criminal. <--- this is courtesy of my best friends little brother.. and mine for all intents and purposes. he's probably wrong though. people think he's a criminal b/c its true... the only time headphones have anything to do with it is when they find a stolen pair stuffed down his pants.









i don't comment when i know people are just going to argue, or when they obviously think they are right. sometimes i ask them if they just want to spout their own advice or if they intend to listen to my response. i have very little patience for people who want to talk to me but don't want to listen when i disagree with them.


Haha, I could always do that. I just have so many strikes against me that it really wouldn't be ideal for me to be giving advice. If they'll ask me something, I'll answer...but I don't go out of my way. I'm not sure how people expect others to respond to a hypercritical, condescending comment...so I doubt their interest is actually in trying to be helpful.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
plus as i said up thread i wish someone had said something more then "theres no right choice and its up to you" when i was struggling with bfing .. no one wanted to be politically incorrect and actually have an opinion.. but i could have used some information, opinions, and support.

Saying that there's no right choice and it's up to you IS an opinion. And someone could have just as easily told you, "Breastfeeding is low class and gross and inferior, you should just give it up."

That's the problem with claiming that people should offer more challenges to other's parenting. It doesn't mean that they're going to be challenges from the "right" side.

Information, opinons, and support don't have to be mutually exclusive, but in my experience information and support vs. opinions often are.

When someone asks me if they should get a sling or a stroller, and I say, "You know, it's really up to you and your kid's preference", I am NOT being politically correct. That is my opinion. When someone asks, for a very high oral needs older baby if it's "okay" if they try a pacifier, when I say, "Hey, it's up to you," that is my sincerely held opinion, because I think pacifiers (so long as they don't interfere with breastfeeding) are neutral.

Some of us who hold the belief (VERY STRONGLY in my case) that the vast majority of parenting does NOT have One Right Way and thus it's important to direct people to follow the needs of their family and not mine. That is not a "PC" belief, in fact you will get crap from both sides if you hold that belief (though hey, no matter what "side" you're on, you're going to get crap as a parent, I'm not sure that anyone catches more or less than anyone else).

You're dismissing the above as a non-opinion, when in fact it IS an opinon.

That's why I feel that a lot of times framing parenting discussions as "challenging" and "debating" is a waste of time because it tends to draw people to think of two oppositional stances (which isn't the case in parenting), and it becomes very easy for people to dismiss people in the grey/more neutral areas as being non-opinionated or "PC" when that's not the case at all.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

it really wasnt either of their opinions.. it was my mom and my aunt and both of them BF for well over a year. they just didn't want to pressure me.

but as i also said in the OP i think there are tons of right answers which is why it is difficult with things like breast feeding, babywearing etc. you never know someone's situation.

but i just can't see how spanking can be construed as right.... circ i have a harder time with b/c i try to respect religious differences.. plus i still can't imagine how it could come up.

i think your reading the challenge thing a bit differently then i meant it. i have to question myself in order to think things through.. i have to try and argue the other side to see if my reasoning stands. thats just me though.

why should i let someone give me ridiculous parenting advice and then just smile and nod. if someone is going to tell me i should spank my kid i expect them to be able to tell me why. same for anything else. if someone tells me we have to CIO i don't think it is that bad to ask them why i should do that.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i guess there are people who just randomly give advice.. i was picturing some looney tune with a pamphlet and multiple choice parenting quiz... but i guess technically thats what it is when people comment on ds and then give me a 30 minute lecture on how i'm to young but since you can't change the past i should start solids no later then 3 mos, and wean at that time b/c a man needs something thats just for him







mostly i ignore them b/c they are often older ladies who really do mean well.

when i am out with ds and it is another mother with similar aged kids it annoys me. she can tell me what she does for a week and i won't do anything but smile... and then she will tell me what i should do or try and if i disagree she says to each their own? well if that were the case she should not have spent the last hour detailing her parenting philosophy and then telling me i should really try it.

if someone asks about ds's sleeping or something and then tells me he needs to sleep in a crib and/or CIO i don't see why i shouldn't be able to respond... its not like they just smiled and nodded why on earth should i?


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## schoolmom07 (Mar 26, 2009)

First of all, I love that 1littlebit has even brought this about! I am a debater and believe that much could be changed if more of us came out but...actions would also have to follow! Anyhoo, I am one who will most assuradly voice my opinions, sometimes with cause and sometimes without proper research. For instance, hubbie had to go to ER (after a visit to Urgent Care yesterday). Every drunk in the county must have been there! One actually got out of a car, pulling his pants up (way too late as I saw what God had given him--UGGG!), and walked in while dd is sitting there playing her Nintendo. He walks in front of us and the back of his pants had HUGE holes in them! You could see the other half of what God had given him! I was angry! So I said something to his friend (after walking DD out of the ER so she would not see this fellow). I asked if he were the one who had just dropped off the other guy and he said yes. So I asked could you not have made sure he got some clothes on that would have covered him? He said "he cut his foot really badly swimming and if we would have had time, I would have". So I asked, "He was swimming without a suit because he certainly doesn't have one on now nor does he have on underwear"! I was pretty angry that people don't mind drinking or drugging to the point they no longer care about themselves or anyone else around them. My daughter could have possibly seen all the male parts of a grown man (she didn't thank God) just because he did not care enough about himself to justify putting on clothes or being decent in any way! Well, I don't want to have my daughter remembering some strange man naked, just because we were seeking legitimate help to take care of her dad who has septic bursitis and was running a temp of 104! BTW, he has to have his knee opened up tomorrow to drain it...EWWW and OMG he is braver than me! He is in alot of pain and they are aggressivly treating with antibiotics but doc says they have to open it up and shoot the meds right into it! Sorry I know off subject.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

your post sounds like mine when i post after 11pm ... and im with ya on the nakedness.. its a bit unpleasant.. but i promise it wont scar her! me and my brother saw an nice old man butt naked on a nude beach... obviously more appropriate but still not exactly pleasant.

and the knee.... yikes!

i think those of us who are naturally prone to debating have a hard time listening to someone's thirty minute sermon on the evils of co sleeping and why no one should BF past 6 months and then have that person say 'to each their own' when someone disagrees...







if you didn't want my opinion don't share yours.


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

Having been on the receiving end of ENDLESS unsolicited, well-meaning and totally infuriating advice and opinions since the birth of my son three years ago, I vote :

BUTT THE F*** OUT.

Unless asked directly for advice or if a subject comes up in conversation.

I am sicksicksick to death of the interference of well-meaning people (see my thread in Personal Growth for a recent example). I refuse to become like them. Also, as DS gets older I see less and less the point of judging people based on a very short interaction with them (ie the parents in the grocery store or at the zoo or whatever). There just isn't enough data, and it's too easy to get worked up into a smug, self-satisfied state. No one is perfect and most of us are truly doing the best we can in the moment.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

I didn't vote. I don't go round lecturing people on how to raise their children or how to live their lives. I do judge certain actions, but often without knowing the full story. I don't think it is my place to comment on other people's choices. I dislike hypocrisy, and I find it extremely annoying when other people write off the choices I carefully made, after doing much research. I notice a trend on here of people starting threads along the lines of "this mom I met does such and such, how do I tell her that this is wrong?". I have also personally written things along those lines on MDC. For me, this is more of a learning opportunity, and I', curious to see how others react. Sometimes it is even just to vent. However, I don't think that it is OK to tell others what to do. Even if you don't like it, these are their choices for their children.

Some PPs mentioned that they will step in when there is "real abuse or neglect" going on. This is interesting, because there are a thousand different views on what constitutes abuse or neglect. Some believe that CIO constitutes abuse, others believe that UC is neglect. My truth is not someone else's truth. I think there is a very fine line here.


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
Why do you feel the need to get into an "argument" or "debate" with anyone over parenting?

Honestly, when you feel a burning desire to get into an argument or debate with anyone over anything, generally you're not going to change anyone's mind because you are taking a combative, aggressive stance from the start.

When was the last time, honestly, that someone being aggressive and combative made you change your mind about something rather than make you just want to circle the wagons and tell them to shove off?

I don't find parenting a taboo subject in our culture. We have tons of magazines devoted to parenting. It's a constant subject on message boards and TV shows. Turn on any given news talk station, and you will hear a ton of people complaining about other people's parenting, and how if only we did things <insert philosophy of choice>, then everyone's kids would be smarter/nicer/ethical/blah blah blah.

I DO think that people become very defensive when talking about parenting because they are surrounded with a culture that attacks and berates and picks apart every single thing that you do in raising children. Parenting has become a huge one-upsmanship game, from the mommy wars to arguing if the good parents are really bad and the bad parents are really good.

Some people really don't like to debate. Generally those people don't like to talk about ANYTHING debatable, from politics to religion to parenting. Some of the people who love to talk about those things a lot probably should shut up occasionally when impassioned, lest they stick their foot in their mouth up to their butt cheek (I feel empowered to say that because I have stuck my foot in my mouth even further).

Parenting is not a "taboo" subject--but it IS one where most people really don't care to hear opinions/practices different from their own. In my opinion, there is a BIG difference.









:







:







:


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

I voted all of them. But not in the sense of walking up to someone and "educating" them. I think they all should be open for discussion. But I think walking up to complete strangers and ragging on them without knowing their situation is just rude and annoying.







:

I also think there are times when it really is none of my business. It makes me sad to hear a mom talk about how eager she is to put her 2 yo in daycare because the kid isn't as gifted as her older two and is harder to parent.







But it's not my right to tell that mom what to do no matter how I feel about it.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

what constitutes abuse or neglect to me is anything that would constitute abuse or neglect if done to anyone else. Though the law values dogs more then children in some aspects I don't base it on that. If its wrong to hit an adult or a dog then I will step in when I see the same treatment towards a child, even if its legal in my country. Though I will say when I see a child hit in public it is NEVER a "calm, gentle spanking" that people claim to use. The blows are rarely aimed the butt either. When its just a threat I don't say anything, but the threats are usually pretty graphic too and involve curse words along with the threats to hit.

The only reason spanking isn't "real abuse" to some people is because its legal. It's animal cruelty, assault, etc if its anyone but a child though, so to me, spanking is legal abuse. I don't think all abuse is created equal and I don't approach them with "you are abusing your child" but I do look at it as infringing on the right of a human based on discriminating against them for their age. Much like certain genders and races once had less rights about being treated humanely. So I say something. It's not just my opinion that hitting people is wrong. As a whole, most people agree. They just dont think children count as people in that statement, and that is what I would like to see change and its not going to change because people dont say anything.


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom* 
I voted all of them. But not in the sense of walking up to someone and "educating" them. I think they all should be open for discussion. But I think walking up to complete strangers and ragging on them without knowing their situation is just rude and annoying.







:


Yep!


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JamesMama* 
That...and I'm not altogether ashamed of it. IMO there is a MDC member that had a good phrase in her siggy "Judgment is not always wrong"

I don't really say anything except rant occasionally to my like minded friends...but I do think less of people that FF 100% by choice or CIO or what have you. I also do not pick those types of people to be my friends. Thankfully I have like minded friends to choose from.









Angela (Algena)

And I agree. We all judge. But sometimes not keeping those judgements private can be hurtful and even destructive.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 
I say everything is up for commenting. my rule of thumb is to pay attention to when, where and how.

*-online i will comment on anything. if you don't want a comment, don't put it up there. it's a forum.

-in real life, i will only comment if the person is asking for advice or if i think i can get a word in compassionately.*

-only exception to #2 is if i think things are being misrepresented or people are being misled for example, if a couple mamas are saying cio is amazing and a newer mama is sitting there soaking it in, i'll speakup.

i've learned some of the best things simply by people making a comment. i don't see what the issue is. if you don't know there's a choice, how will you go looking for it online or in a book???

I completely agree with the bolded. If someone doesn't want comments online, don't post. I don't know about others, but I know that I tend to be more blunt online than in person.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
everyone keeps saying if it comes up or someone asks their opinion.... how else would you talk about it? i can't imagine ambushing some poor unsuspecting person who is minding their own business at the grocery store or something. has this happened to any of you? b/c that would inappropriate IMO ... not to mention just weird.

I have seen this many times in various forums and it is often cheered along vigorously. It makes me sad.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *LavenderMae* 
Believe it or not circumcision does come up and I make sure to be very clear that it's wrong and there's no way in hell I'd let someone take a scapel to my sons' (or daughter's for that matter) genitals nor is it my right to do so. Circumcision is not just another parenting decision. Circumcision also isn't a crunchy versus mainstream thing but a human right's violation. Most people I know who leave their sons intact aren't crunchy or AP really.
I do make myself bring it up with anyone I know who is going to have children, it's too important not to imo.

If someone told be they were circumcising their son, I would never tell them they were wrong. If they asked me what I thought, I would explain why we chose not to circ. Telling someone they are wrong does nothing to educate them and only puts them on the defensive.

Mainstream does not mean _wrong_; it means _different_. I use disposable diapers. Am I wrong? No. I am different from those who cloth diaper. My almost six year old weaned daughter just asked for a sip from my "boowahs," and I let her. Am I wrong for not being mainstream? No. I am just different from mainstream FFing or non-extended BFing.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I don't say they are wrong I say circumcision is wrong and it is. It is a far cry from disposable diapers versus cloth. I do not put circumcision in the parenting choice category, eventhough I'm well aware it's legal to do to boys (not to girls of course in the US which is good but on half of it). I never start out with 'it's wrong' but I do not want to give the impression that cutting off healthy integral parts of a baby's genitals is something I'm remotely okay with. I also made a point to mention that circumcision is not a mainstream versus crunchy thing, most people I know who leave their sons intact are not crunchy at all. It's more of a not violating your son in a painful, permanent and sexual way at days old thing. Some things are just wrong.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LavenderMae* 
I don't say they are wrong I say circumcision is wrong and it is. It is a far cry from disposable diapers versus cloth. I do not put circumcision in the parenting choice category, eventhough I'm well aware it's legal to do to boys (not to girls of course in the US which is good but on half of it). I never start out with 'it's wrong' but I do not want to give the impression that cutting off healthy integral parts of a baby's genitals is something I'm remotely okay with. I also made a point to mention that circumcision is not a mainstream versus crunchy thing, most people I know who leave their sons intact are not crunchy at all. It's more of a not violating your son in a painful, permanent and sexual way at days old thing. Some things are just wrong.

yep same thing with spanking. it's strange some of the things that are legal to do to a child against their will that would be considered inhumane to do to an adult against their will. I mean, I can see where whether or not something is right or wrong could be up for debate, but when it comes to hurting someone in a way that is not okay to do to adult people (or as with spanking even to do to animals) but its okay to do to a child


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

: i really believe that spanking is always wrong. i also believe that circ is wrong.. but i don't include a Bris Milah (sorry if my spelling is wrong) in that b/c i don't feel comfortable attacking people's religious beliefs.

i am also not comfortable commenting about things that are over and done with so if a child has already been circ'd i keep my mouth shut...no one can change it and i don't want to cause that mama to feel guilt for something she cannot change. ditto for FF, CIO etc. if someone already has done it i don't want to say much... even if i did have an effect all it would do it cause them guilt.

now when someone is talking about what they plan to do or might do i would comment. with circ i would probably recommend the CAC forum... its hard to read that and still think its a good idea. for breast feeding i tell them my experience with FF and recommend kellymom and some books if she asks. CIO is hard. if someone is thinking about it and i tell them we never did that sometimes it gives them hope that it's not as necessary as people make it out to be.

like if i have DS with me PG women and women with babies constantly come up to us and talk. and some of the pg women ask how we do things.. i think they are just excited and curious .. i know i was when i was pg. with the other moms stuff comes up in convos.. like someone will ask when he STTN or when we plan to wean him.

its amazing how hearing someone else's way of doing things can open people's minds. its like saying that we never did CIO and ds STTN very well.. admittedly in our bed ..







makes it easier for someone to ignore advice they don't want to take. people told me to CIO and my aunt told me strait up that she never did it, my mother never did it, and she really doesn't recommend i do it. she said they are only babies for so long and there is no reason to rush these things... and that i will understand when he is older.. and she was right. now at 16 mos he STTN most of the time and i am glad we never did CIO its seems like it could work in the moment but that feeling will pass over time.

i have discovered that many women are thrilled to talk to other moms who are not rushing babyhood. and other mama who wont get upset with them for not using harsh discipline if their toddler 'misbehaves' sometimes it is hard for moms to totally disregard the advice of the people around them and talking to someone who trusts their instincts and believes other should too can be a relief.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

with CIO I think there is neglectful CIO and well intentioned (Though imo still wrong) CIO.
such as the parent who checks on the baby every 5 minutes and comes to pat them on the back versus the parent who just puts them down at a certain time and doesnt go back until morning. I think one is lazy and plain evil and neglectful and the other is misguided and misinformed and probably wouldnt do that if they knew a better way. What it comes down to is once you know there is a better way do you choose to change or do you keep doing something harmful to your child? Do you "embrace your badness" or do you just do your best. Doing your best doesn't mean you will be supermom and I dont suggest killing yourself in your attempts, but simple things such as not doing something that will cause your child physical and emotional pain (which both CIO and spanking can cause) is a goal worth working hard to reach. There are varying degrees of wrongness, and it would only be detrimental to embrace that wrongness. The parent who realizes spanking and cio are wrong and slip up and lose patience once in a blue moon and hit their kids bottom once or twice or leave the room for 5 minutes to recollect themselves when baby wont stop crying but makes an effort to increase their patience and gentleness - I admire that even if they aren't perfect. But the parent who embraces their badnes in doing those wrong things, they have justified those actions. 5 minutes of crying turns into 10 then 15 then 30 and more. Spanking becomes a regular thing and when it stops working it becomes more severe and sometimes crosses the line into what is even legally considered abuse. I think I read that parents who spank are 4 times more likely to end up abusing their child then parents who don't believe in spanking. Personally I knew I could never live with myself if I hit my kids but I did yell at them a few times before I realized where I needed my walking away point to be. I hold nothing against a parent who makes mistakes, and I do not think they are abusing their children. But parents who CHOOSE to hurt their children and defend it as their "right" to do so that is when I consider it crosses the line into abuse. And of course, within the world of abuse there is a wide spectrum that ranges from a smack on a hand to beating a child to death. Just because some people beat their kids though doesn't mean its not wrong to spank them. It's still treating HUMANS under a certain age as if they don't deserve the same humane treatment that is give to humans over a certain age or even animals. I understand children dont have the same rights as adults, they can't vote etc. But can't we at least treat them better then we treat dogs? There is a difference between a childs right not to be pysically harmed and a child being allowed to drink and drive and vote. The right to not be hurt to me is not awarding a child too many rights. Some right people should just always have simply because they are people.


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LavenderMae* 
*I don't say they are wrong I say circumcision is wrong and it is.* It is a far cry from disposable diapers versus cloth. I do not put circumcision in the parenting choice category, eventhough I'm well aware it's legal to do to boys (not to girls of course in the US which is good but on half of it). I never start out with 'it's wrong' but I do not want to give the impression that cutting off healthy integral parts of a baby's genitals is something I'm remotely okay with. I also made a point to mention that circumcision is not a mainstream versus crunchy thing, most people I know who leave their sons intact are not crunchy at all. It's more of a not violating your son in a painful, permanent and sexual way at days old thing. Some things are just wrong.

But in saying that what they have done (or plan on doing is wrong), you are telling them that they are wrong in making that choice. And that it's wrong is still your opinion, no matter how convicted about it you are or how many people agree with you (and I, for one, do agree).

I don't understand how telling a parent that their legal choice is wrong is going to make them more open to the subject, regardless of where it enters the conversation.


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## Cinder (Feb 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
lol i should have put car seat safety too! thats a minor thing for some people and a huge issue for others. i think there is more misinformation out there about carseat safety then any other parenting issue combined.. and that one is sort of a biggie.

Ok, carseats are a big deal to me, I HATE when people post pictures of their kids in a winter coat with chest clip at belly botton level that I could put my entire arm in between them and the straps...why in the world are you even bothering with a car seat at this point! But, I don't say anything unless asked...however, when a woman at Kincaid's school was driving with her infant carrier forward facing(still not sure how they did that) in the front seat with a kid obviously too big (both head and feet hung out of the seat, not just feet) for it, I did do everything I could to get that changed (difficult, since they spoke no English or Spanish, and I only speak English and a tiny bit of Spanish).


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## Cinder (Feb 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
Some PPs mentioned that they will step in when there is "real abuse or neglect" going on. This is interesting, because there are a thousand different views on what constitutes abuse or neglect. Some believe that CIO constitutes abuse, others believe that UC is neglect. My truth is not someone else's truth. I think there is a very fine line here.

There are some things where opinion doesn't play a part though, it just IS abuse, no matter what you (general you) think... like, say beating a kid with a pop bottle in walgreens parking lot (dh called the cops...)...


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cinder* 
There are some things where opinion doesn't play a part though, it just IS abuse, no matter what you (general you) think... like, say beating a kid with a pop bottle in walgreens parking lot (dh called the cops...)...

Of course I agree. But try being on the side where people claim you are neglectful, when you know you are doing the best for your child. I am talking about things that are judged as such by the mainstream - co-sleeping, not vaxing, UC, and there are probably more. Just because it is legal does not mean it's not abuse, but I am just saying that there is more than one "truth" out there, as with everything in life. Just like with the terrorist/freedom fighter pair







.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

For me I'm a roll with it kind of mom, I am AP in a way, but I don't like labeling myself.

There are lots of things I don't agree with and other things that some others would think I do are lame. I give my DD mac n cheese, I let her watch some TV-so I can actually get something done. She eats some cookies.

I've been called a _terrible mother_ when she was 19 months old because she squealing in the store. An older couple pulled up to me and asked if she was mentally ill, I asked them if they were joking, they said no. They then proceeded to tell me what a terrible mother I was and what the hell I was doing letting my young toddler scream in the store. What did they think I should do? Smack her? Give her a whippin in the store? I have no idea. Obviously whatever I was doing in their eyes was wrong







. I'm pretty sure they expect me to spank her or something, which is something that is not happening.

Some people think that time outs are demeaning, but for us it's the only thing that can curb our spirited DD's behavior at times, she needs to sit and reflect upon the behavior that is inappropriate.

I think a lot of it is highly personal decisions.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Well, my approach with discussing circumcision has helped one mom I know leave her son intact even though she always thought she would (even well into her pregnancy) circumcise, helped a mom with two circumcised boys to educate herself and as a result she left her 3rd son intact, pionted another mom in the right direction for info to change her dh's mind (it did), and those are just the effects I can remember off the top of my head. And it is wrong to surgically remove a healthy, integral and sexual part of someone else's body and I have no desire to sugar coat that. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's ethical or right.

I am however not heart less and realize we all make mistakes, I've made my share for sure. I know mamas that fully regret circumcising their sons and I offer them nothing but my deepest sympathy and support.

I have no doubt that in the future the way I feel about circumcision will be the mainstream view it will become a dark part of our countries past that generations from now will be looked back on as unbelievable (can you believe people used to do this here). Hopefully that's not just wishful thinking. Maybe spanking and CIO will be the same, that would be lovely.


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## weliveintheforest (Sep 3, 2005)

I think all aspects of parenting are okay to discuss/comment on, but only in the right circumstances. Every situation is different. If it's a friend, or they seem like they would be open to what I'd have to say, it's a lot different than a random stranger in the mall saying breastfeeding is gross.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
if someone gave you advice would you say something along the lines of "oh we do what works for our family" or "thanks for your opinion" or would you consider that an appropriate situation in which to give your opinion? not critical btw.. i'm just curious. b/c i agree that in most situations different things are right for different people so you don't want to railroad people but if they offer you advice would you think it was ok to offer your own opinion or no? i know there are many right ways and right reasons that are specific to each family, is there anything that you would never consider right? for me that is spanking but i know some might disagree









I don't ask for advice often IRL. I would probably be pretty annoyed at unsolicited advice (based on past experience) so I would confine my answer politely.

I was given unsolicited advice to put my dd in school because homeschooling is horrible, etc, etc. I responded and put a lot of effort into bringing out evidence and support for my decision without saying that other options are bad and it really just got ugly. In retrospect these were people who did not want to learn and discuss other educational options. They just wanted to tell me what to do because they were threatened by someone making a different choice. They wanted us to be like everyone else so we didn't embarrass them. I should have just said "thanks for your concern" and changed the subject.

No one has ever said to me "You really should spank your daughter." If they did I would probably not want to engage them in a discussion. If someone said, "You must spank your dd all the time to get such good behavior" then I would correct them and be open to discussing how we handle things without spanking.

If someone had said (when dd was in a safety seat),"Oh, you don't need that. Just hold her on your lap. I'm a safe driver and we are only going to the store." I would have refused. I'm not sure how much discussion there would be. It depends on my relationship with the person I guess.

I have gotten unsolicited advice on sleep and food and education. I just kind of let it pass by without discussion these days and not waste my energy.

I just wanted to add that my dd is 9 and I'm not going to have more babies. I don't participate in a lot of parenting discussions on baby stuff anymore. I'm not in the stage where I passionately care about a lot of these issues. I have heard and seen it stated multiple times that as a parent of one child I automatically do not know as much as a parent of multiple children so people will just tune me out no matter what I have to say anyway.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyzombiecat* 
I have heard and seen it stated multiple times that as a parent of one child I automatically do not know as much as a parent of multiple children so people will just tune me out no matter what I have to say anyway.









: you may not necessarily know what it is like to parent multiple children at once...neither does anyone else with only one child... but only children do not morph into a completely different species once there is more then one child....

that makes no sense. it doesn't matter how many kids you have, some people with one child could write their dissertation on children and some people with 5 kids don't know which part of a child is up. i imagine it would be individual to each person....


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

and i was sort of wondering if people's answers would change if the person in question was a good friend. i wasn't really thinking of strangers when i wrote the OP... i think it kind of sounds like it though. i was thinking of other mom acquaintances and good friends you knew before they became parents.

and how would your response differ between someone with children, someone without, and someone who is pg?


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

I am more likely to want to help a good friend then to look the other way. If I felt a friend was hurting their child and I kindly tried to help them find another way I they continued I think the friendship would probably end if they ever hurt their child in my presence. I might be more likely to continue to help a stranger. I know that might not sound right, I just know my limits and it would hurt me too much to watch a child I knew personally being abused.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

After an internal struggle between the "Live and let live" and "I should be able to speak up if I think your doing something harmful" sides of my brain... I chose the last one. While I don't think we should continually push people to do things a certain way. I don't think any one has a right to go unchallenged. Being challanged in our views does one of two things, we either become more solid in what we believe or upon questioning what we are doing realize our own errors and hopefully try to change them.

That being said, I only challenge someones thinking if it's the time and place to do so and only once unless they continue to bring up the subject themselves.

Without challenge we never see where we can improve or how strong our convictions truely are.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

OK musiciandad you said it one paragraph what i have been trying to say for umm... 6 pages.







i absolutely believe you should only speak up if it is the time and the place. i also absolutely believe that no one has the right to go unchallenged ever.

it was all the times i explained to people who questioned me why i believe what i do that convinced me i am absolutely doing the right thing. if no one's beliefs are ever challenged people never have to explain their actions/opinions etc. without that questioning people never have to answer to anyone but themselves... and it is much easier to lie to yourself then to someone else. it is easier to pretend you know why you believe something if you never actually have to explain it so someone who disagrees.

does any of that makes sense?


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## lovebug (Nov 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
After an internal struggle between the "Live and let live" and "I should be able to speak up if I think your doing something harmful" sides of my brain... I chose the last one. While I don't think we should continually push people to do things a certain way. I don't think any one has a right to go unchallenged. Being challanged in our views does one of two things, we either become more solid in what we believe or upon questioning what we are doing realize our own errors and hopefully try to change them.

That being said, I only challenge someones thinking if it's the time and place to do so and only once unless they continue to bring up the subject themselves.

Without challenge we never see where we can improve or how strong our convictions truly are.

nicely said


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

For those of us who are American we should remember also that if we had just "lived and let live" instead of "challenged what we didn't believe in" (as Musician's Dad put it) we wouldnt even BE American. It's people who speak up against the things they dont believe in that bring about change.

While this country was built with freedom in mind, the whole point of that freedom was so that people could be treated well. It wasn't just "lets be free to do whatever we want and treat people poorly" the freedom was to enable us to be treated well by our gov't and at the same time protect us from eachother. Children are not protected and never will be if everyone just looks the other way because "its a parents right" to treat the child that way. To pretend its okay for a parent to hit a child just because you woulndn't like it is someone ragged on your for extended breastfeeding. One thing reasearch shows is healthy to do and the other it is known is damaging. Also, its about WILL. If a parent was FORCING a child to breastfeed yes that would be bad, but thats not the case with extended breastfeeding for most people. When it comes to hitting a child though, it's not something they would want unless emotionall abused into consenting to it.


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## SunshineJ (Mar 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
Also, its about WILL. If a parent was FORCING a child to breastfeed yes that would be bad, but thats not the case with extended breastfeeding for most people. When it comes to hitting a child though, it's not something they would want unless emotionall abused into consenting to it.

The problem I have with this is that in general people don't apply it across the board. Most people I know would not willingly consent to say working 65 hrs a week and being cursed at during that time, yet they have no choice but to stay in a position like that due to finances and the depression and no one would ever dream of saying something to the company about it for example. There are lot's of things that go on that aren't really the person's choice, things that people are pushed into tolerating under duress, that people let slide or don't want to get involved or speak up about. While certainly children are one of the more vulnerable groups of our society and should be protected, I think that if you feel it's ok to get involved like that then you should be willing to stand up for what you think is right in every situation where you feel someone is being mistreated.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

SunshineJ - I am wolling to stand up when I think things are wrong.

I just think if we say "okay its not okay to hit other people, its not okay to hit animals, its no okay to hit this race, and its not okay to hit women" then we should extend that to children as well. I am not saying these things enver happen, but the law doesnt protect you from them. The law does protect you from being harassed at work. While someone may not feel comfortable addressing the issue, at least our society as a while recognizes that it is wrong to cursed at and mistreated on the job. That is what I am talking about when I say we need to speak up if we want to see change. Children deserve to be treated humanely just as much as women and men and dogs and cats and adults of every color deserve. But for some reason the children were skipped over when they were considering which beings were human enough to deserve humane treatment.


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LavenderMae* 
Well, my approach with discussing circumcision has helped one mom I know leave her son intact even though she always thought she would (even well into her pregnancy) circumcise, helped a mom with two circumcised boys to educate herself and as a result she left her 3rd son intact, pionted another mom in the right direction for info to change her dh's mind (it did), and those are just the effects I can remember off the top of my head. *And it is wrong to surgically remove a healthy, integral and sexual part of someone else's body and I have no desire to sugar coat that. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's ethical or right.*
I am however not heart less and realize we all make mistakes, I've made my share for sure. I know mamas that fully regret circumcising their sons and I offer them nothing but my deepest sympathy and support.

I have no doubt that in the future the way I feel about circumcision will be the mainstream view it will become a dark part of our countries past that generations from now will be looked back on as unbelievable (can you believe people used to do this here). Hopefully that's not just wishful thinking. Maybe spanking and CIO will be the same, that would be lovely.

I agree that legal does not necessarily mean right, but this is still your _opinion_. And even though I agree, it's still an opinion, and there are many people I know who would disagree with my choice not to circ. And when they say something (and they do, lol), I just thank them for their opinion and move on.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Um, okay. So this thread has no morphed into a "If you say live and let live you are unpatriotic and you would just stand by and let someone beat the crap out of their kids and abuse them?"

That's ridiculous.

I'm sorry, but the POLL talks about things like when to introduce solids, babywearing, ect. The only abusive choice I see is spanking and CIO (but then again, definition of 'CIO' are important).

I have been an emergency placement foster parent. I've worked in the social services field. I believe that I have done a lot of standing in the gap and helping children who needed protection and shelter from abuse and neglect.

I still feel that when it comes to PARENTING issues, vs. abuse issues, having seen genuine abuse and other unmentionable things I am MORE likely now to be able to hold my tongue and not turn every little pet issue into a hill to die on.

I've directly intervened in parking lots, schools, ect to prevent a child being hit. And yet I STILL SAY that when it comes to run of the mill parenting issues most of the time it's not worth confronting and preaching at people. And I think people who turn every thing into a Huge Honkin' Deal are making a big mistake.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

and once it was the opinion that black people should be slaves. once it was someones opinion that men should be allowed to hit their wives. I think when we are talking about physically harming another persons body against their that the laws should be applied across the board. Not "its not okay to treat a human or animal this way - UNLESS they are under 18" I mean WTH is that about, really?


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inmyheart3inarms* 
and once it was the opinion that black people should be slaves. Once it was someones opinion that men should be allowed to hit their wives. I think when we are talking about physically harming another persons body against their that the laws should be applied across the board. Not "its not okay to treat a human or animal this way - unless they are under 18" i mean wth is that about, really?

amen.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

I was the one who brought up the patriotic thing and if you read my other posts the only things I consider abusive are neglectful forms of CIO and spanking. Yes I do think its unpatriotic to say "lets just look the other way, its their right to hurt that person". If we had done that years ago then women would still be hit by their husbands and there would still be slaves. Somehow animals rights are more valuable then childrens though. Again, its not a parents right to spank being executed. It's a childs right to be treated human that is being violated.


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## JennTheMomma (Jun 19, 2008)

I have no problem discussing any of these with anyone. I think its all how you say it, rather than judging but listening and trying to give your information about the topic. I don't agree with spanking or CIO at all (CIO being leaving baby/toddler alone crying in their room to fall asleep, or just left alone crying) but I can only give my opinion and offer some information about it. At the end of the day the mother/father is going to do what they think what is best for them. If a child is in danger of bad parenting, then I'll speak more about it to them and if need be I will contact proper authorities.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

Thats aweome Jenn. I wish more people would. My neighbors did CIO with their daughter (this was before I met them) at a very early age and she died in the night because she choked on her own vomit and was too young to roll over. They thought she had just falled asleep. Not all people practice CIO that way (I would hope most don't) but some people cross the line into neglect and something does need to be said.


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## JennTheMomma (Jun 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
Thats aweome Jenn. I wish more people would. My neighbors did CIO with their daughter (this was before I met them) at a very early age and she died in the night because she choked on her own vomit and was too young to roll over. They thought she had just falled asleep. Not all people practice CIO that way (I would hope most don't) but some people cross the line into neglect and something does need to be said.









Oh no, that is so horrible








My mom does daycare, and a long time ago there was a baby who came there and her parents did CIO, and she would vomit in her crib and be lying there in it. The worse part was the father was a police officer. They would also leave her in her crib and go bike riding in the evening. My mom contacted social services, but we don't know what ever happened to them. They stopped coming and moved. That is one major reason I didn't ever want to do CIO, not only is it annoying to just leave a baby to cry, but its just so cruel. I can't imagine just leaving a baby in his/her crib and walking away. I've heard other parents telling new moms to just ignore it or listen to some music. I will never understand that mentality, but I'm sure they don't understand mine either.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

I think it takes a fair amount of arrogance to assume that you are right about something and other people just need to be educated.... and if only they were educated, they would do things your way.

That is the belief we all seem to secretly hold, but it's not true.

There are EXTREMELY few situations where parenting is either RIGHT or WRONG. It sure seems that way when you think that you're right and the other person is wrong, but it's simply not the case. Parenting is not an absolute and making parenting decisions requires careful examination and treatment of subjects that frequently do not have clear cut answers.

I strongly support breastfeeding - VERY strongly. And have always been a passionate advocate for it (well, always meaning since I had a baby). However, there are moms who share their stories and technically (by our definition) "chose" to formula feed, but given their circumstances (which can really be extenuating) that really did seem to be the best option for them.

The same applies to so many other parenting decisions.

Part 2 is this - let's say there was a right and wrong for every parent no matter what. You have to also believe that it is your job to educate and correct the world. I disagree with that being the case. I cannot imagine it really accomplishing much unless it's done in a pretty careful and respectful way. Pointing out to other people where they've gone wrong is a very common thing and it mainly serves to validate our own existence and distract us from the real problem - ourselves. We all have things we could focus on and do so much better and instead of preaching to people who may not be receptive to your message, instead you can look at ways you can improve and all you have to do is be receptive to that message.

I suppose I agree that intervening in others' lives, with the idea that we know what's best for them, is very patriotic, in the sense that it seems to be a very American attitude. I disagree that it is a good one however.


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## lindsayncadence (Mar 27, 2006)

In my opinion you should only comment if it is unsafe or neglect. Usually I dont comment at all but lots of my friends had kids after me and ask me ?'s and I take that as a chance to help educate them to make more informed choices about what is right for their family.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

so its a bad attitude that people spoke up to stop slavery and stop men from hitting their wives? I guess I definitely disagree then! I think that is an excellent attitude, and I am only speaking of speaking up on things along that playing feild. I am not saying that it would be patriotic to tell someone what color car to drive or how to tie their shoes - but if we make a law that no one can take their hand, lift it, bring it down in connection with another person, with the intent of inflicting pain or otherwise, without the other person consent (consent that is gained without emotional manipulation) then that law should apply to ALL people. At one time it only applied to white men. Then only men. Then only adults. Now its adults and animals... it's wrong to want to speak up so that eventually the idea of humane treatment extends to children as well? Thats a bad attitude to have? Guess I have a bad attitude then. I suppose some people think Rosa Parks had a bad attitude as well. I bet a lot of women got hit back in the day for the same kind of bad attitude. I mean really, how dare someone have the audactiy to suggest that another human deserves to be treated without physical threat? (sarcasm of course, well coming from me anyway it is, apparently other people think this way in all seriousness)


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

It's not just my opinion it's how boys are born for crying out loud. It's not just my opinion that circumcision removes a part of the penis which is the male sex organ. It's not just my opinion that boys are born with foreskins and it serves a purpose. It's not just my opinion that circumcising a baby 100% of the time is done with out the baby's consent. Is it just my opinion that removing a part of a girls vulva is unnecessary and sexually altering?

The onus is on those who insist on removing functioning and healthy parts of someone else's genitalia not on us who don't.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
so its a bad attitude that people spoke up to stop slavery and stop men from hitting their wives? I guess I definitely disagree then! I think that is an excellent attitude, and I am only speaking of speaking up on things along that playing feild. I am not saying that it would be patriotic to tell someone what color car to drive or how to tie their shoes - but if we make a law that no one can take their hand, lift it, bring it down in connection with another person, with the intent of inflicting pain or otherwise, without the other person consent (consent that is gained without emotional manipulation) then that law should apply to ALL people. At one time it only applied to white men. Then only men. Then only adults. Now its adults and animals... it's wrong to want to speak up so that eventually the idea of humane treatment extends to children as well? Thats a bad attitude to have? Guess I have a bad attitude then. I suppose some people think Rosa Parks had a bad attitude as well. I bet a lot of women got hit back in the day for the same kind of bad attitude. I mean really, how dare someone have the audactiy to suggest that another human deserves to be treated without physical threat? (sarcasm of course, well coming from me anyway it is, apparently other people think this way in all seriousness)

What in the world does this have anything to do with whether or not you tell people that when they should feed solids to their children or vaccinate them?

How are you getting that people are saying that slavery and domestic violence is okay because they don't feel the compulsion to offer unsolicited parenting advice to everyone?

I think I'm bugging out of this thread, this has veered a little too much into extremeland for me. I still think that fighting and debating with people over their parenting is likely to be counterproductive than anything else. This does not mean I condone violence or slavery, because I don't. If it's dangerous, then call the cops or CPS or intervene directly yourself. If it's perhaps not "best" but isn't abuse or neglect (like formula feeding), then if you don't call everyone out who isn't doing everything exactly to your standards, it doesn't mean that you condone domestic violence and would prefer to still be living under Jim Crow.

Seriously WTF?


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

4inmyheart is speaking of spanking and CIO, I believe. I think she takes the same stance as most of us - what you feed your kid and how you sleep is up to you, but when it crosses the line to what we believe is abuse, we will speak up.

4inmyheart, if I'm wrong... correct me!


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i don't know why it has to be fighting... why can't we all just talk about things and share ideas and info without it being a huge deal?

i mean if someone gives you parenting advice why is it so bad to ask them why they recommend it?

if you have a pg friend why is it wrong to offer books, ideas, your experience, support or w/e without it being construed as a declaration of war?

o and fwiw i agree about RIC.... its not an opinion and there is a right answer.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SandraS* 
4inmyheart is speaking of spanking and CIO, I believe. I think she takes the same stance as most of us - what you feed your kid and how you sleep is up to you, but when it crosses the line to what we believe is abuse, we will speak up.

4inmyheart, if I'm wrong... correct me!









: and really with spanking, circ, cio and such it is parents making choices for another human being, a human being who has no control over the choices of their parents. who protects them? the law doesnt... spanking is legal... there is no one to speak for children who are being subject to what is essentially legalized assault and cosmetic surgery.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

You referenced the patriotic comment, which was made by me, and I was not someone who was saying anything about feeding a baby solids or whether one breastfeeds or formula feeds, etc. The patriotic comment I made was in reference to the fact that we decided (after people speaking up, not after people "minding their own business) that all people - including women and people of color, and even animals - had a right to a certain kind of humane treatment that does not involve hurting someone against their consent - and that is not extended to children and so yes, I do think its patriotic to speak up about that subject in effort to bring about change. I think that when you see someone physically hurting a child in a way that is not an accetable way to treat other humans or animals that is is perfectly acceptable to speak up.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

thank you two ladies who understand what I am saying


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## UhOhWhatNow (Jul 21, 2008)

I am not sure I'd actually say something, but I have a hard time with seeing CIO or spanking (and circ, too!). I was at a baby shower recently, and there was a three year old who reached up and just gently touched the diaper "cake" (So cute!) a guest had made. The child's mother without any hesitation grabbed him by the arm and wacked his butt- hard. It made me very upset. I had just given birth days before, and maybe that made me more emotional. I honestly had to really focus to not say anything.

I would comment on a car seat issue, though politely. I hate seeing people take an infant in a Taxi cab without a carseat! I see that a lot.

I comment about MY great natural birth and my breast feeding, and if someone says she wants to try but is scared, I share encouraging but honest info. But I'm not rude or pushy about those issues- they ARE personal choices.

To me, though spanking a child, beating on a dog, keeping dogs outside/chained (or in very hot weather), or letting dogs ride in the back of a pick up truck loose, or not using a car seat with your child- those things in MY PERSONAL opinion are abuse, and it's hard for me not to try to educate the person.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UhOhWhatNow* 
I am not sure I'd actually say something, but I have a hard time with seeing CIO or spanking (and circ, too!). I was at a baby shower recently, and there was a three year old who reached up and just gently touched the diaper "cake" (So cute!) a guest had made. The child's mother without any hesitation grabbed him by the arm and wacked his butt- hard. It made me very upset. I had just given birth days before, and maybe that made me more emotional. I honestly had to really focus to not say anything.









you have amazing self control. i think i might have just reacted and grabbed her hand... not something i would normally do but jeez its a cake for goodness sake not priceless art.. people are going to eat it.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

it was a diaper cake - people weren't even going t eat it, it was eventually going to be taken apart, put on a babies bum, and pooper on. hehehe


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i was thinking a cake that looked like a diaper!


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

HEHEHE that would be cute!!


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

To me, spanking is physical violence and it's always appropriate to intervene, though it depends on who's spanking and where, as to how you do it.

CIO is something that is worth addressing with someone you know well.

Vaccinations- if the other party brings it up, I will state my point of view in the most concise, humorous, and open way possible.

Breastfeeding- No, because you never know the "secret" reasons that someone might not be breastfeeding, like some kind of trauma. Though, I might ask, "Are you going to pump or use formula for the first six months?" Just to open up the possibility.

Of course, if someone ASKED my opinion, that would be different.

And yeah, never to a total stranger, except spanking. Funny how on Oprah and whatever they have those things where you see a man beating or threatening a woman, and they see what others do, but they don't have it for kids.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

some people with 5 kids don't know which part of a child is up.
nak

just saw that

rofl, SO TRUE


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
Um, okay. So this thread has no morphed into a "If you say live and let live you are unpatriotic and you would just stand by and let someone beat the crap out of their kids and abuse them?"

That's ridiculous.

I'm sorry, but the POLL talks about things like when to introduce solids, babywearing, ect. The only abusive choice I see is spanking and CIO (but then again, definition of 'CIO' are important).

I have been an emergency placement foster parent. I've worked in the social services field. I believe that I have done a lot of standing in the gap and helping children who needed protection and shelter from abuse and neglect.

I still feel that when it comes to PARENTING issues, vs. abuse issues, having seen genuine abuse and other unmentionable things I am MORE likely now to be able to hold my tongue and not turn every little pet issue into a hill to die on.

I've directly intervened in parking lots, schools, ect to prevent a child being hit. And yet I STILL SAY that when it comes to run of the mill parenting issues most of the time it's not worth confronting and preaching at people. And I think people who turn every thing into a Huge Honkin' Deal are making a big mistake.

God, yes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
and once it was the opinion that black people should be slaves. once it was someones opinion that men should be allowed to hit their wives. I think when we are talking about physically harming another persons body against their that the laws should be applied across the board. Not "its not okay to treat a human or animal this way - UNLESS they are under 18" I mean WTH is that about, really?

Apples and oranges. And my friends, the Cohens, would totally disagree.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShadowMom* 
I think it takes a fair amount of arrogance to assume that you are right about something and other people just need to be educated.... and if only they were educated, they would do things your way.

That is the belief we all seem to secretly hold, but it's not true.

There are EXTREMELY few situations where parenting is either RIGHT or WRONG. It sure seems that way when you think that you're right and the other person is wrong, but it's simply not the case. Parenting is not an absolute and making parenting decisions requires careful examination and treatment of subjects that frequently do not have clear cut answers.

I strongly support breastfeeding - VERY strongly. And have always been a passionate advocate for it (well, always meaning since I had a baby). However, there are moms who share their stories and technically (by our definition) "chose" to formula feed, but given their circumstances (which can really be extenuating) that really did seem to be the best option for them.

The same applies to so many other parenting decisions.

Part 2 is this - let's say there was a right and wrong for every parent no matter what. You have to also believe that it is your job to educate and correct the world. I disagree with that being the case. I cannot imagine it really accomplishing much unless it's done in a pretty careful and respectful way. Pointing out to other people where they've gone wrong is a very common thing and it mainly serves to validate our own existence and distract us from the real problem - ourselves. We all have things we could focus on and do so much better and instead of preaching to people who may not be receptive to your message, instead you can look at ways you can improve and all you have to do is be receptive to that message.

I suppose I agree that intervening in others' lives, with the idea that we know what's best for them, is very patriotic, in the sense that it seems to be a very American attitude. I disagree that it is a good one however.

Another God, yes!!!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
What in the world does this have anything to do with whether or not you tell people that when they should feed solids to their children or vaccinate them?

How are you getting that people are saying that slavery and domestic violence is okay because they don't feel the compulsion to offer unsolicited parenting advice to everyone?

I think I'm bugging out of this thread, this has veered a little too much into extremeland for me. I still think that fighting and debating with people over their parenting is likely to be counterproductive than anything else. This does not mean I condone violence or slavery, because I don't. If it's dangerous, then call the cops or CPS or intervene directly yourself. If it's perhaps not "best" but isn't abuse or neglect (like formula feeding), then if you don't call everyone out who isn't doing everything exactly to your standards, it doesn't mean that you condone domestic violence and would prefer to still be living under Jim Crow.

Seriously WTF?

Ditto.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
i don't know why it has to be fighting... why can't we all just talk about things and share ideas and info without it being a huge deal?

i mean if someone gives you parenting advice why is it so bad to ask them why they recommend it?

if you have a pg friend why is it wrong to offer books, ideas, your experience, support or w/e without it being construed as a declaration of war?

o and fwiw i agree about RIC.... its not an opinion and there is a right answer.

I despise unsolicited advice because the person giving it "knows" they are right and I am wrong. And because of this, I don't give unsolicited advice.

Lemme ask you this...

I mentioned my coworker who had just returned to work (her first day back), and she mentioned that she was FFing by choice. How many of you would have tried to "educate" her right then and there?


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KirstenMary* 
I mentioned my coworker who had just returned to work (her first day back), and she mentioned that she was FFing by choice. How many of you would have tried to "educate" her right then and there?

I wouldn't have said word one about it. Even though I breastfed, and I know it's best, I do understand others have challenges - be it physical or mental or otherwise - and I don't think FF is the devil. To be frank. It's not the best, but it's not abuse either.


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## Swan3 (Aug 5, 2008)

I agree that presentation and approach are everything in this case. The only ones I would comment on or challenge someone on are CIO & spanking. As far as BF, my two closest friends have gone through such enormous challenges (BF after reduction, mother losing too much blood and being on heavy medications after delivering a preemie) on this front that I would be cautious about how to approach it. With them, because I LOVE them, I encouraged encouraged encouraged and let them know I was THERE for them, any time of the day or night if they needed me and left it at that unless they called me for help. Really, what good is a sermon if you aren't able to offer some help?

I think as much as we focus on gently disciplining and communicating things to our children, in matters with adults a gentle and respectful approach should also be taken, otherwise the defensiveness could just make things worse (like in the case of spanking).


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## UhOhWhatNow (Jul 21, 2008)

I wouldn't say anything to someone I didn't know VERY well about her choice to FF. If it was my best friend, I'd say, "Hey, just wondering... love you to pieces... have you considered breast feeding?" because yeah, it's a choice. FF is not abuse! If she said she was interested but (fill in blank) if I had some tips I would share them.

Like I said above, I didn't even say anything to the woman who hit her child for touching a "cake" (not a real cake) made out of diapers (yes, disposable! LOL). I did lean over and say something to my husband, and I did hug my baby against my chest and hurt inside for that child who gets hit like that for simply doing what kids do- explore.

But I was not about to stand up at a baby shower where the only person I knew was the pregnant mom (not the one hitting her child) and start a fight with a woman who knew everyone else there! Mainly, do you really think it would stop her from doing it? I doubt it. And her child didn't seem phased (not sure if that upsets me more or less!). This incident was not worthy of involving the law, and I would have only probably ruined my friend's baby shower by commenting.

If I see a dog without water routinely, I report it animal control... because it's abuse as defined by myself and the law.

If I saw a child being beaten (and there is a difference IMO between spanking and beating even though I hate both) I would call 911. That is entirely different from saying to someone when circumstances allow, "Have you tried time outs? I never had any success with spanking (which is a true statement if you don't spank







) or something.

Vaccinations, I'd never comment. Charged issue, and I in no way think it's abuse to vaccinate, even if I wouldn't give a certain vaccine.

CIO I agree depends. How you present something is hugely important. No one who means well or just doesn't know any better wants to be called an abuser. I learned how to handle these delicate situations a lot in dog rescue. Get on their level- relate to them. "I understand. Damn, last night I got NO sleep!!! I so wanted to just walk away!!!" mom to mom... then maybe, "But I just read a study about babies crying and giving up and how it can affect them, so I ended up trying this new white noise CD and walking around with my baby in the sling and it worked! Want to borrow mine?" or something. I've done things like that. I can't change someone's view of the world but I can try to offer helpful advice. We all have various ideas of what constitutes abuse, but at some point the law wins.

Alienating someone removes ANY chance you ever had of influencing her in a positive way.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

exactly. Dogs, Men, Woman, and Adults of all races are apples. And children are oranges.

At one time anyone who wasn't a white male were oranges too. Now they are considered as human as the white male, while the children remain oranges. They aren't really oranges though. They are apples that were put in an orange basket.


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
exactly. Dogs, Men, Woman, and Adults of all races are apples. And children are oranges.

At one time anyone who wasn't a white male were oranges too. Now they are considered as human as the white male, while the children remain oranges. They aren't really oranges though. They are apples that were put in an orange basket.

That made me giggle.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

I personally dont think its funny that people hit children.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KirstenMary* 

Lemme ask you this...

I mentioned my coworker who had just returned to work (her first day back), and she mentioned that she was FFing by choice. How many of you would have tried to "educate" her right then and there?

Not me. If she was supplementing because she felt she had supply issues I would support her with education. If she was pregnant and told me she was weighing her option I would support her. If in saying she was FF by choice she put down breastfeeding I would share why I chose it and how it worked for me. But otherwise no I wouldn't educate her. Though I might ask why she chose that, but not in a judgmental way. If she gave a reason like "oh I just thought it would be too hard. I might say "for some people it is, and for some its not. you could always give it a try if you think you might want to and thats the only thing holding you back" Really you have to feel out a situation. Some people are FFing by choice because they felt it was the only choice they really had.


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
I personally dont think its funny that people hit children.

Oh, no, not in the least... that's the most unfunny thing ever... I just liked your apples/orange retort!







I'm with ya, sistah...


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KirstenMary* 
I mentioned my coworker who had just returned to work (her first day back), and she mentioned that she was FFing by choice. How many of you would have tried to "educate" her right then and there?

a couple things on this. like i said in the OP you really just don't know why people aren't BFing and it may be pouring salt in the wound if you bring it up. the other thing is this is over and done with... what good would educating do her now? unless she told you why you shouldn't BF or why it wasn't important or something i would just leave it alone. if someone came up to me and told me about BFing i would be really upset b/c i already know and there is nothing more i can do.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SandraS* 
Oh, no, not in the least... that's the most unfunny thing ever... I just liked your apples/orange retort!







I'm with ya, sistah...

sorry I misread yout post








it's hard to tell on the internet sometimes, but I have actually had people laugh at me for suggesting that children be treated as kindly as everyone else. Sure they had to fight for their rights to be treated that way (even the white male did in a sense - hence the American Revolution so they could be their own country free of Britain) and I just think it's not unreasonable to fight for children to be included in that group of people who deserve 'xyz' humane treatment.


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
sorry I misread yout post








it's hard to tell on the internet sometimes, but I have actually had people laugh at me for suggesting that children be treated as kindly as everyone else. Sure they had to fight for their rights to be treated that way (even the white male did in a sense - hence the American Revolution so they could be their own country free of Britain) and I just think it's not unreasonable to fight for children to be included in that group of people who deserve 'xyz' humane treatment.

Nope, I'm riding on your train. I cannot tolerate anyone hitting a child (or another adult for that matter). I have to deal with SIL tellling me 'every child needs beat at some point or another' while she hits her girls for doing something like, um, dragging their feet from the stroller. Yeah. If she weren't my SIL, I wouldn't even be around her.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SandraS* 
Nope, I'm riding on your train. I cannot tolerate anyone hitting a child (or another adult for that matter). I have to deal with SIL tellling me 'every child needs beat at some point or another' while she hits her girls for doing something like, um, dragging their feet from the stroller. Yeah. If she weren't my SIL, I wouldn't even be around her.









and thank you for clarifying for me too, I'm really glad you did so I could apologize for misreading you.

I talk about children's rights in this area (spanking) frequently. Recently a no-mother friend of mine said she was so glad she knew me because she lvoes the way I handle my children. She was never spanked, but she never thought about what she would do, but after hearing things I have said it makes so much sense to her and seeing how I raise my kids she see hitting is not necessary and so she knows now she will never hit her own children when she has kids.







:

BTW she has to be the nicest, most self motivated, good hearted people I have ever met. In college, excellent grades, FANTASTIC morals, and no one ever hit her. She's even developed some ideas on her own about the effects hitting might have on children. She told me yesterday : It's good not to hit them because then if anyone ever does they will realize how wrong it is and not engage with that person, and she was saying that it teaches them how to solve problems without violence. It led to a nice agreeable conversation on the subject too


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
exactly. Dogs, Men, Woman, and Adults of all races are apples. And children are oranges.

At one time anyone who wasn't a white male were oranges too. Now they are considered as human as the white male, while the children remain oranges. They aren't really oranges though. They are apples that were put in an orange basket.


Heh. Nevermind, lol. We clearly disagree. And in a way, that's what this thread is about.


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

I was bummed about my coworker, but I kept quiet. She has her reasons, none of which are my business.


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## UhOhWhatNow (Jul 21, 2008)

I too don't know why all animals and all people aren't given the same protection as any other. This will always baffle me.

If my husband grabbed me and hit me at that baby shower, someone would have called the cops. Someone does that to a three year old, no one even misses a beat.

If you chained a dog up in his own waste in a shed, then killed him, you'd go to prison. Yet most people condone this type of treatment of millions of animals every day when we buy animal products. (Myself included- I haven't found a way out of this moral dilemma unless I stop owning dogs which eat meat, and I couldn't be a happy person without dogs, and most dogs do not thrive on a meatless diet. If such abuse of farm animals was not allowed, then I wouldn't feel nearly so guilty).

My point isn't to start that debate- but merely to say that these differences upset me. Why do some creatures essentially have no protection or rights against certain kinds of abuse, while others do? It sucks.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KirstenMary* 
Heh. Nevermind, lol. We clearly disagree. And in a way, that's what this thread is about.









yep. but im saying its okay to speak up. Yes, there WERE people who thought the slaves should not be freed. They disagreed with MLK And Rosa Parks. There WERE men who felt they should be allowed to keep hitting their wives. They disagreed with their "right to hit" being taken away. There WERE people who think dogs are dogs and who cares if you hit them, and they disagreed with the new laws that now offer the animals protection.

They are all probably very mad that people didn't "mind their own business" but mind your own business is really code word for don't call me out on doing something wrong because I dont want to stop and I think *my* opinion about hurting other people is right, and your opinion about not hurting people is wrong, and you should keep your opinion to yourself. Why is it okay that these people act out AGAINST OTHER PEOPLE on their opinions but not okay for other people to say something about it? You want to have an opinion about your own life FINE but when your opinion is physically harming another person that its not just your opinion that counts anymore.


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
yep. but im saying its okay to speak up. Yes, there WERE people who thought the slaves should not be freed. They disagreed with MLK And Rosa Parks. There WERE men who felt they should be allowed to keep hitting their wives. They disagreed with their "right to hit" being taken away. There WERE people who think dogs are dogs and who cares if you hit them, and they disagreed with the new laws that now offer the animals protection.

They are all probably very mad that people didn't "mind their own business" but mind your own business is really code word for don't call me out on doing something wrong because I dont want to stop and I think *my* opinion about hurting other people is right, and your opinion about not hurting people is wrong, and you should keep your opinion to yourself. Why is it okay that these people act out AGAINST OTHER PEOPLE on their opinions but not okay for other people to say something about it? You want to have an opinion about your own life FINE but when your opinion is physically harming another person that its not just your opinion that counts anymore.

Again, apples and oranges. While others may understand your comparisons, I (as do others in this thread) completely disagree with comparing circing to wife beating and slavery.

And if someone asked me, I would gladly give my opinion about circing, but I would never in a million years give that opinion unsolicited.


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KirstenMary* 
Again, apples and oranges. While others may understand your comparisons, I (as do others in this thread) completely disagree with comparing circing to wife beating and slavery.

And if someone asked me, I would gladly give my opinion about circing, but I would never in a million years give that opinion unsolicited.

She's talking about hitting a child.


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UhOhWhatNow* 
I too don't know why all animals and all people aren't given the same protection as any other. This will always baffle me.

If my husband grabbed me and hit me at that baby shower, someone would have called the cops. Someone does that to a three year old, no one even misses a beat.

If you chained a dog up in his own waste in a shed, then killed him, you'd go to prison. Yet most people condone this type of treatment of millions of animals every day when we buy animal products. (Myself included- I haven't found a way out of this moral dilemma unless I stop owning dogs which eat meat, and I couldn't be a happy person without dogs, and most dogs do not thrive on a meatless diet. If such abuse of farm animals was not allowed, then I wouldn't feel nearly so guilty).

My point isn't to start that debate- but merely to say that these differences upset me. Why do some creatures essentially have no protection or rights against certain kinds of abuse, while others do? It sucks.

A three year old is an ego personified. Perhaps the child was doing something unsafe, putting the child in immediate harm, and the mother grabbed the child because of a safety issue. I've seen it happen.


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SandraS* 
She's talking about hitting a child.

She's talking about a lot more than that. And I still disagree with her opinion.


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KirstenMary* 
A three year old is an ego personified. Perhaps the child was doing something unsafe, putting the child in immediate harm, and the mother grabbed the child because of a safety issue. I've seen it happen.

So hitting a child is okay if they're about to get hurt? I'm trying to understand your logic. Please advise.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UhOhWhatNow* 
I too don't know why all animals and all people aren't given the same protection as any other. This will always baffle me.

If my husband grabbed me and hit me at that baby shower, someone would have called the cops. Someone does that to a three year old, no one even misses a beat.

I get what you're saying, but it's not that straightforward. I keep my front door locked, any my children aren't allowed to leave the house without me. DH does the same thing. This is not only legal, it's encouraged - I could have CPS called on me if I let my kids leave the house whenever they wanted to do so. However, if dh did the same thing to _me_, he could be charged. Adults and children don't have the same protection there, either...but I don't know anybody who thinks that children should just be allowed to leave whenever they want to, _or_ that an adult shouldn't be allowed to do so.

Please note that I'm not saying that spanking is the same thing - but we don't have the same rules for adults and children, and most people don't want us to (think about "legal age" to drink, marry, vote, drive, have consensual sex, etc.).


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## UhOhWhatNow (Jul 21, 2008)

In the example I gave (in another post, sorry it was confusing!) the child was grabbed and hit because he was touching (with one finger, out of curiousity) a "diaper" cake made of disposable diapers. I can understand saying, "No no, that's a present for (expecting mama)" sure but hitting? And no, I didn't say anything.

I am reluctant to get too into a hitting children topic since I haven't ever parented a child other than my own 12 week old infant so "what do" I "know" about this. But, I will be well and truly shocked if I ever feel I need to hit my son. Just not my way.

(BTW I was not hit either)


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UhOhWhatNow* 
I am reluctant to get too into a hitting children topic since I haven't ever parented a child other than my own 12 week old infant so "what do" I "know" about this. But, I will be well and truly shocked if I ever feel I need to hit my son. Just not my way.

(BTW I was not hit either)

You know all you need to know. You don't have to have parented a toddler or a teen to know you won't hit them. You are just as versed on the subject as anyone else, mama!


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## UhOhWhatNow (Jul 21, 2008)

You do make a good point Storm Bride- thanks!

I can certainly agree. We wouldn't let our dog or child roam the street (people who do that are definitely neglectful or abusive IMO).

So, fair enough, some rules have to be different. But, protection is what it's all about in both cases. IMO hitting children is not appropriate and they should be protected from it just like they should be protected from roaming the streets or other hazards.

I know it's a slippery slope, but violence of any sort really does upset me a lot.


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## UhOhWhatNow (Jul 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SandraS* 
You know all you need to know. You don't have to have parented a toddler or a teen to know you won't hit them. You are just as versed on the subject as anyone else, mama!

Thanks. I try hard not to judge anyone when I haven't been in his or her position. It's tricky sometimes. I just want to understand...







But I do feel pretty confident that hitting isn't necessary, and is not something I would ever do.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

No really with the wife beating and slavery issue I am just talking about hitting a child - while yes I have feelings on some of the other issues it seems that these are directly related. It's about every other human and now even animals haven finally been given the right not to be hit against their will, EXCEPT for human children. It's about how just like they aren't protected there was a time where people who are protected now weren't protected either - how people SPOKE UP to change that - how its wrong its done to children and people should speak up to change that too (if they want it changed - obviously men who spanked their wives didnt speak up to put an end to it, and people with slaves didnt speak up to end slavery, etc - but some people DID speak up, or things would not have changed.) Society does not change when everyone sends the message its in an acceptable state of being. By not saying anything when you see a child be hit you are sending implied acceptable - even if its only acceptance of a persons right to hit another person (though in this case its only legal if that other person is a small child). Just because the law says it is their right does not mean it really is. That is not the only American law that protects people's ability to violate another person's right. We've lost sight of what this country was built on. What we need is a non-prejudiced approach to the original laws. Instead we just create laws that take away more rights, and never fully carry out the laws our country was built on.

As for "wife beating: that is not what I was taking about anyway. I was talking about spanking a woman (against her will) which is only considered "beating" today becuse women have rights, but the actions taken are no different then the ones taken against a child who is spanked. Why is it if a man puts a woman over his knee and spanks her (and im not talking about the bedroom kinky stuff, I'm talking about against her will) that it is considered abuse, but when done to a child it is punishment? I mean really, at least a grown woman can choose her spouse. Children can't choose their parents.

In some cultures, women have historically been spanked by the patriarch of the family or the husband. This is now regarded as tantamount to wife-beating and in modern times it has become socially unacceptable and is considered abusive throughout the developed world. Corporal punishment of women by their husbands, however, does still exist in some parts of the third world.
(Wikipedia)

It's really NOT apples and oranges to compare hitting a human to hitting a human, unless one person's status does not count as human because of a factor that has nothing to do with whether or not they are human? This was once color, this was once gender, and it is still age. It's not apples and oranges. It's just some people calling apples oranges to excuse their poor behavior. And even if it were apples an oranges they are both still fruit. Either one can be used as a baseball or served with breakfast, but if you don't want to waste food you eat it. Food is meant to be eaten, even if you don't use it that way.

Hitting another person simply goes again the human rights.

Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,

Article 1
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Article 2
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
Article 3
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
Article 5
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

There are 30 articles in total but the TOP ones seemed most applicable to what I am saying here. The ones they felt they should mention FIRST on their list.

There is also something called the 4 freedoms:
1. Freedom of speech and expression
2. Freedom of religion
3. Freedom from want
4. Freedom from fear

Dr. Mahbub ul Haq first drew global attention to the concept of human security in the United Nations Development Programme's 1994 Human Development Report.

Personal security - Personal security aims to protect people from physical violence

(of course, the way this is carried out now hitting your wife or someone on the street in ANY capacity is considered violence and punishable by law, but hitting a child is not considered violence)

It seems that these things are CONDITIONAL not absolute. The only condition being children.

openly advocates four particular children's rights, including the end to juvenile incarceration without parole, an end to the recruitment of military use of children, ending the death penalty for people under 21, and raising awareness of human rights in the classroom.[21] Human Rights Watch, an international advocacy organization, includes child labor, juvenile justice, orphans and abandoned children, refugees, street children and corporal punishment.[22]

Scholarly study generally focuses children's rights by identifying individual rights. The following rights "allow children to grow up healthy and free":[23]

* Freedom of speech
* Freedom of thought
* Freedom from fear
* Freedom of choice and the right to make decisions
* Ownership over one's body

Other issues affecting children's rights include the sale of children, child prostitution and child pornography.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

:


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SandraS* 
So hitting a child is okay if they're about to get hurt? I'm trying to understand your logic. Please advise.

Grabbing. Did you read the post to which I responded?

eta: grabbing was the part to which i was referring. my bad.


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
No really with the wife beating and slavery issue I am just talking about hitting a child - while yes I have feelings on some of the other issues it seems that these are directly related. It's about every other human and now even animals haven finally been given the right not to be hit against their will, EXCEPT for human children. It's about how just like they aren't protected there was a time where people who are protected now weren't protected either - how people SPOKE UP to change that - how its wrong its done to children and people should speak up to change that too (if they want it changed - obviously men who spanked their wives didnt speak up to put an end to it, and people with slaves didnt speak up to end slavery, etc - but some people DID speak up, or things would not have changed.) Society does not change when everyone sends the message its in an acceptable state of being. By not saying anything when you see a child be hit you are sending implied acceptable - even if its only acceptance of a persons right to hit another person (though in this case its only legal if that other person is a small child). Just because the law says it is their right does not mean it really is. That is not the only American law that protects people's ability to violate another person's right. We've lost sight of what this country was built on. What we need is a non-prejudiced approach to the original laws. Instead we just create laws that take away more rights, and never fully carry out the laws our country was built on.

As for "wife beating: that is not what I was taking about anyway. I was talking about spanking a woman (against her will) which is only considered "beating" today becuse women have rights, but the actions taken are no different then the ones taken against a child who is spanked. Why is it if a man puts a woman over his knee and spanks her (and im not talking about the bedroom kinky stuff, I'm talking about against her will) that it is considered abuse, but when done to a child it is punishment? I mean really, at least a grown woman can choose her spouse. Children can't choose their parents.

In some cultures, women have historically been spanked by the patriarch of the family or the husband. This is now regarded as tantamount to wife-beating and in modern times it has become socially unacceptable and is considered abusive throughout the developed world. Corporal punishment of women by their husbands, however, does still exist in some parts of the third world.
(Wikipedia)

It's really NOT apples and oranges to compare hitting a human to hitting a human, unless one person's status does not count as human because of a factor that has nothing to do with whether or not they are human? This was once color, this was once gender, and it is still age. It's not apples and oranges. It's just some people calling apples oranges to excuse their poor behavior. And even if it were apples an oranges they are both still fruit. Either one can be used as a baseball or served with breakfast, but if you don't want to waste food you eat it. Food is meant to be eaten, even if you don't use it that way.

Hitting another person simply goes again the human rights.

Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,

Article 1
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Article 2
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
Article 3
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
Article 5
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

There are 30 articles in total but the TOP ones seemed most applicable to what I am saying here. The ones they felt they should mention FIRST on their list.

There is also something called the 4 freedoms:
1. Freedom of speech and expression
2. Freedom of religion
3. Freedom from want
4. Freedom from fear

Dr. Mahbub ul Haq first drew global attention to the concept of human security in the United Nations Development Programme's 1994 Human Development Report.

Personal security - Personal security aims to protect people from physical violence

(of course, the way this is carried out now hitting your wife or someone on the street in ANY capacity is considered violence and punishable by law, but hitting a child is not considered violence)

It seems that these things are CONDITIONAL not absolute. The only condition being children.

openly advocates four particular children's rights, including the end to juvenile incarceration without parole, an end to the recruitment of military use of children, ending the death penalty for people under 21, and raising awareness of human rights in the classroom.[21] Human Rights Watch, an international advocacy organization, includes child labor, juvenile justice, orphans and abandoned children, refugees, street children and corporal punishment.[22]

Scholarly study generally focuses children's rights by identifying individual rights. The following rights "allow children to grow up healthy and free":[23]

* Freedom of speech
* Freedom of thought
* Freedom from fear
* Freedom of choice and the right to make decisions
* Ownership over one's body

Other issues affecting children's rights include the sale of children, child prostitution and child pornography.

nak

you are not going to change my mind, and i am not going to change yours. i agree to disagree; clearly you don't. and you can back up your opinion with hundreds of agreeing sources, but it changes nothing.


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UhOhWhatNow* 
You do make a good point Storm Bride- thanks!

I can certainly agree. We wouldn't let our dog or child roam the street (people who do that are definitely neglectful or abusive IMO).

So, fair enough, some rules have to be different. But, protection is what it's all about in both cases. IMO hitting children is not appropriate and they should be protected from it just like they should be protected from roaming the streets or other hazards.

I know it's a slippery slope, but violence of any sort really does upset me a lot.

i agree with this, but i am also not going to interfere with a parent who swats their child on the butt. i won't like it, but i won't intervene.

beating, though, is totally different.


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## UhOhWhatNow (Jul 21, 2008)

Me either, and I didn't


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

I haven't read beyond the first page yet, but I checked everything, but with a HUGE caveat. I will share our experiences with various topics, not from a "you shouldn't do x or y" but rather "actually, we had this experience". My view is that it is always okay to share information - sharing info is not (necessarily) criticism.

I also believe there has to be a context. As you pointed out, walking up to a stranger is weird and unacceptable most of the time, but in the context of a conversation with another parent, sure these topics may come up, and I will share our perspective. I may also address factual inaccuracies, depending on the context and relationship with individuals.


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## DoulamamaOE (Apr 29, 2009)

The only thing I am truly vocal about is smoking in places where there are children everywhere (like the zoo) or within the "law" limits of buildings (here is is 25 feet of a doorway). I don't agree with all that other parents do with their children, but I'm sure they think I'm a whacko hippie too. Just because I do it this way doesn't mean I'm right, and just because it's not socially acceptable doesn't mean it's wrong. KWIM? To each their own, I guess. Smoking is another thing altogether! I don't want my kids breathing in that crap!! I don't smoke and I don't want them exposed to it. I can't make them stop smoking, but I can make them stop smoking around my kids!!


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

i am fine with agreeing to disagree. I cant say I understand why someone would want to disagree that children are not humans but thats up to you.

you dont have to speak up since obviously you don't think children deserve the same level of safety that adults do, but I have a right as an american to speak up about it since I do think they do. I think the childrens humans rights are being violated - not that the parents rights are being exercised and that is where we differ.

Again, there were many people like you floating around when there were slaves. Just because you were not a black person who sat in the front of the bus doesnt mean Rosa Parks was wrong for doing so. Even if you think blacks should have remained slaves, then thats fine thats your opinion, but it doesn't mean others cant express their opinion by making effort to change the laws to protect the unprotected.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DoulamamaOE* 
The only thing I am truly vocal about is smoking in places where there are children everywhere (like the zoo) or within the "law" limits of buildings (here is is 25 feet of a doorway). I don't agree with all that other parents do with their children, but I'm sure they think I'm a whacko hippie too. Just because I do it this way doesn't mean I'm right, and just because it's not socially acceptable doesn't mean it's wrong. KWIM? To each their own, I guess. Smoking is another thing altogether! I don't want my kids breathing in that crap!! I don't smoke and I don't want them exposed to it. I can't make them stop smoking, but I can make them stop smoking around my kids!!

Gosh, isn't that illegal anyway? Asking people not to smoke in public is not a parenting issue, it's a public health issue. Lots of non-hippies demand smoke-free air.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

no it's not illegal.

Really anything that upsets you physically or emotionally you have the right to say something about. so if I see someone hitting a child in public I say something because it makes me physically ill and gives me anxiety attacks. People should not be allowed to do that in front of other people (or at all, but I think the first step in the right direction would be for people to not be allowed to hit in public)

The ironic thing is, there ARE already laws that should protect children from being hit, they just aren't carried out when it comes to children, just like they once werent carried out or people of certain skin tones or gender.

Now I personally don' mind continuing to debate the issue because while you may not be willing to change your mind just because you don't want to, there are some people out there whose minds will change when they think of things differently. Myself included.

Im not going to think something just because I want to think it, I am going to open my mind that what is actually right. I mean sure, I probably WONT be able to be convinced that children aren't human, but that won't be because im _unwilling_ to be convinced of that idea, it's because I just really doubt anyone will be able to succeed in proving they are right that children are less then human.

Feel free to walk away and stop reading my posts if you are unwilling to think anything other then you already do. I never made you read my replies.


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## SunshineJ (Mar 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
They are all probably very mad that people didn't "mind their own business" but mind your own business is really code word for don't call me out on doing something wrong because I dont want to stop and I think *my* opinion about hurting other people is right, and your opinion about not hurting people is wrong, and you should keep your opinion to yourself.

This is reaching - a lot. And this is also how people who choose things like co-sleeping and homeschooling end up with CPS reports; some busybody is convinced that the parents actions are wrong and speak out. Ask any parent here who homeschools, had uc, doesn't vax or co-sleeps if they think they are harming their child and how they would feel if people chose to lecture them because they were actually wrong. Seriously, this whole thing is getting extreme.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SunshineJ* 
This is reaching - a lot. And this is also how people who choose things like co-sleeping and homeschooling end up with CPS reports; some busybody is convinced that the parents actions are wrong and speak out. Ask any parent here who homeschools, had uc, doesn't vax or co-sleeps if they think they are harming their child and how they would feel if people chose to lecture them because they were actually wrong. Seriously, this whole thing is getting extreme.









:

I have ended up with a LOT of trouble with CPS, through no fault my own, because some nosey busybody would not MTOB.

There are some things that perhaps should be spoken about, but much more often, I think MYOB is a very good idea.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

How does CPS get involved because I
1) say something to the parent about what they ae doing
or
2) advocate for childrens rights in general without addressing any specific cases.

also if a parent does not want CPS to get involved then they should consider that the reality is some people WILL call if they hit their child in public. Should they call CPS over that? I don't think so, I don't, but some people do.

Saying that because I do those tings more people have CPS called on them - well if anything is reaching THAT is.

And in case anyone is interested, in the countries where spanking is illegal the parents don't have their children taken from them. It's usually parenting classes and sometimes a fine. Like here, it's only severe physical damage that gets CPS involved. What's nice in those countries is that the laws are so clear that people don't call CPS for stupid things.

also sunshinej you took me out of context when you quoted me. could you please edit your quote to add some of what I said before that. You made it sound like I am saying people should never mind their own business. I was referring to the people who were hitting their wives and enslaving people thinking people should mind their own business and people who hurt children, and those are often a case of a person not wanting to stop what they are doing even if it is wrong.

And I don't think I should keep my opinion to myself that hurting people is wrong (regardless of gender, race, OR AGE) just as it seems okay for people to share their opinion that it is okay to hurt people in certain situations (such as if they are under the age of 18) OBVIOUSLY that point of view and opinion is openly expressed - so why should I not share my different point of view and opinion on the matter?


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Granted I came into this converstation late, but I don't think it was saying that YOU have CPS called on people because you say something to a parent or advocate for children's rights.

At least that is in no way what I said. What I did say was that I have had to deal with MORE than my fair share of CPS involvement and CPS treats BECAUSE of other "well meaning" people not MTOB.

I am NOT a child abuser, but I am a HUGE red flag in my area because of my homeschoolding, UCing, HBing, nonvaxing, and large number of children. People just automatically assume they can give me all sorts of advice and tell me how to raise my children, and when I disagree or do something that THEY feel is not right, they make a stink and cause a lot of trouble.

I have had many threats (CPS threats) made as well as several dealings with CPS because of this.

I really wish people would MTOB much more often.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kidzaplenty* 
granted i came into this converstation late, but i don't think it was saying that you have cps called on people because you say something to a parent or advocate for children's rights.

At least that is in no way what i said. What i did say was that i have had to deal with more than my fair share of cps involvement and cps treats because of other "well meaning" people not mtob.

I am not a child abuser, but i am a huge red flag in my area because of my homeschoolding, ucing, hbing, nonvaxing, and large number of children. People just automatically assume they can give me all sorts of advice and tell me how to raise my children, and when i disagree or do something that they feel is not right, they make a stink and cause a lot of trouble.

I have had many threats (cps threats) made as well as several dealings with cps because of this.

I really wish people would mtob much more often.

ita!!!


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty* 
Granted I came into this converstation late, but I don't think it was saying that YOU have CPS called on people because you say something to a parent or advocate for children's rights.

At least that is in no way what I said. What I did say was that I have had to deal with MORE than my fair share of CPS involvement and CPS treats BECAUSE of other "well meaning" people not MTOB.

I am NOT a child abuser, but I am a HUGE red flag in my area because of my homeschoolding, UCing, HBing, nonvaxing, and large number of children. People just automatically assume they can give me all sorts of advice and tell me how to raise my children, and when I disagree or do something that THEY feel is not right, they make a stink and cause a lot of trouble.

I have had many threats (CPS threats) made as well as several dealings with CPS because of this.

I really wish people would MTOB much more often.

If I wasn't clear in my quoting I was responding to SunshineJ. I agree sometimes people should mind their own business. I think people call CPS often when they shouldn't and don't call often when they should. I think CPS makes horrible judgment calls sometimes and other times they do the right thing. I also think its sad that sometimes things are bordering on abuse - get ruled as non-abusive and therefore non punishable by law, the problem escalates, and children wind up dead - where as if all hitting was illegal, but not in the sense that it all resorted in children being taken away, that those parents could get support and resources. Won't stop all the problems, but may decrease them. May just save a life or two of a child to a parent with anger issues who really just needs some parenting skills to stop abusing them.

I just think there is a difference between not minding your own business by speaking up, offering support, fighting for change and not minding your own business by calling CPS. I wasn't really addressing the CPS issue into SunshineJ brought it up in reply to one of my posts, which is why I replied to her. It was overreaching IMO to say that standing up for childrens rights is the same thing as causing CPS to take away innocent people's children.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
It was overreaching IMO to say that standing up for childrens rights is the same thing as causing CPS to take away innocent people's children.

I don't know, IMO and experience, those that don't MTOB "think" they are "standing up for children's rights", and ARE causing trouble. And let me just say that it does not even have to come NEAR taking the children away for it to be a HUGE problem. I have never had my children taken away, no where near that, but I have had several investigations based on some people that should have just MTOB (all unfounded and totally NOT my fault, some even based on lies).

Now, if a person is JUST telling me I am wrong and how I should care for my children, I might get annoyed but I can blow them off, and have. But it is when that person gets into the "standing up for children's rights" over MY rights as the parent and tries to take action. THAT is when it is wrong and they should MTOB.

That is just MO, of course.


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Well, I'll sum it up. *I see someone hitting a child, I'll say something and stand up for that child's rights.* No way will I mind my own business. There's never a circumstance where that is necessary, and it should be illegal, and I really wouldn't care how "offended" the beater was... the beatee is helpless.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty* 
I don't know, IMO and experience, those that don't MTOB "think" they are "standing up for children's rights", and ARE causing trouble. And let me just say that it does not even have to come NEAR taking the children away for it to be a HUGE problem. I have never had my children taken away, no where near that, but I have had several investigations based on some people that should have just MTOB (all unfounded and totally NOT my fault, some even based on lies).

Now, if a person is JUST telling me I am wrong and how I should care for my children, I might get annoyed but I can blow them off, and have. But it is when that person gets into the "standing up for children's rights" over MY rights as the parent and tries to take action. THAT is when it is wrong and they should MTOB.

That is just MO, of course.

I hear you but I'm not talking about a parents right, I'm talking about a child's unseen right. Yes, as a parent you DO have a right to how you birth for example. But as a human a child has a right to not be hit, same as every other human. The problem seems to be that children are not being included in human race. Now really anyone can say anything, I'm just saying I don't think a child being hit is something I should MMOB about. Again, once upon a time some men thought people were standing up for womens rights to the point they were interfering with their rights as a husband (their right to hit their wives). I am ONLY talking about when a child's HUMAN RIGHTS are being violated by the parent under the guise of it being the parents right to violate the child's right. Children ARE human, even if the law in some countries hasn't admitted it yet.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Perhaps you are speaking of only hitting a child or something, but from my personal experience, I have had CPS called on me and had to go through an investigation because I choose to HB. They called it neglect and not caring for my child's basic human right to recieve medical attention at birth.

So, I don't think you can just decided what is "right" and what is "wrong" because no two people will think the same. The relative that could not MHOB and caused me so much trouble "thought" she was standing up for my child's "rights". SHE WAS WRONG!


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

but there is no "right" that says they have a right to receive medical attention at birth. People (children and adults alike) have a right to medical attention even if they can't pay (i believe) but they ALSO have the right to deny medical attention. and a home birth ISNT denying medical attention. AND birth is not a medical condition.

When it comes to hitting, aside form the right to hit children, there is no right to hit a person against their will All I'm saying is children ARE in fact human, and should be treated as such. I am taking about honoring ACTUAL rights, rights that already exist but just aren't being applied.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
Again, there were many people like you floating around when there were slaves. Just because you were not a black person who sat in the front of the bus doesnt mean Rosa Parks was wrong for doing so. Even if you think blacks should have remained slaves, then thats fine thats your opinion, but it doesn't mean others cant express their opinion by making effort to change the laws to protect the unprotected.









:

You know, I really wish that you would stop attacking people like this.









It's not really adding to the conversation. NO ONE has said that children are not human. NO ONE has said that they love slavery or that they hate civil rights.

But you are illustrating the point of why I think that sometimes it's better to not discuss parenting choices if you can't be civil, or are not in a place where you can even remotely start from a place of understanding. When you start out talking parenting issues and soon move on to insinuating anyone who doesn't agree with you hates children, thinks they're subhuman, and oh by the way is pro-slavery to boot--the person you're talking to will have (hopefully) turned off their listening from that kind of attack.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

I guess I could say mind your own business about me not minding my own business. I am only pointing out the hpocrisy of th system, not attacking anyone. if anyone really feels that way then yeah I guess I am speaking out against what they believe, but otherwise it's just the idea I am speaking against.

you do not know how I approach these people. I am tlaking about the idea that children are less than human, which some people do demonstrate they believe, but that is not indicative of how I help people realize its wrong o hit children and help thm to change their ways if they want to. I am supportive and I am helpful. At the same time I speak up for a good cause.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I'm talking about what you are saying to people in the thread.

You're right, I have no idea how you respond to people face to face, most people I know are a little more bold online so perhaps that's a good thing.

But I don't see ANYWHERE that Kirsten said in her posts that she thought children were "not human". And then you go on to say "people like you" in reference to people who agreed with slavery and fought civil rights? I'm sorry, but that is attacking people. It's unkind and unfair.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

yes people like her, not her. and yes, there are also people like her who DONT think that way. But people believe in equal human rights for all people don't think that way and that is the distinguishing difference. The people who see think that children not having their rights honored is not the same thing as when the AAs didnt have their rights honored or not the same thing as when the women didnt have their rights honored. And Kirsten is one who thinks its not the same thing. It doesn't mean she agrees with those things, obviously as she said they are not similar things, but it's people who think along those lines (just differently - just in terms of children not being human or deserving of human rights) who are that way. It's noting against KIRSTEN for christ's sake I dont even know kirsten!

but obviously you want to single me out and nit pick at my words, your own form of attack. You have intentionally been unkind and unfair towards me simply because you perceived I was being unkind and unfair towards someone else

but hey, I am going to respect your choice to not mind your own business because I know you are doing it because you think you ar standing up for the rights of someone else. how about that for irony


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty* 
Perhaps you are speaking of only hitting a child or something, but from my personal experience, I have had CPS called on me and had to go through an investigation because I choose to HB. They called it neglect and not caring for my child's basic human right to recieve medical attention at birth.

So, I don't think you can just decided what is "right" and what is "wrong" because no two people will think the same. The relative that could not MHOB and caused me so much trouble "thought" she was standing up for my child's "rights". SHE WAS WRONG!

Absolutely. In my experience those who condemn choices like UC and non vaxing DO, genuinely, believe they are standing up for your children's rights, even if they are the very same people we might condemn for hitting their children and CIO. Sometimes these people happen to be part of governments, but even when that is not the case, it can mess with peoples' lives. So, when no two people will agree, what should we use to determine what is and is not worthy of interfering with?

For lack of anything better, I would say - the law?


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
Again, there were many people like you floating around when there were slaves. Just because you were not a black person who sat in the front of the bus doesnt mean Rosa Parks was wrong for doing so. Even if you think blacks should have remained slaves, then thats fine thats your opinion, but it doesn't mean others cant express their opinion by making effort to change the laws to protect the unprotected.

Huh.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty* 







:

I have ended up with a LOT of trouble with CPS, through no fault my own, because some nosey busybody would not MTOB.

*There are some things that perhaps should be spoken about, but much more often, I think MYOB is a very good idea*.

Yes. Exactly.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty* 
Granted I came into this converstation late, but I don't think it was saying that YOU have CPS called on people because you say something to a parent or advocate for children's rights.

At least that is in no way what I said. What I did say was that I have had to deal with MORE than my fair share of CPS involvement and CPS treats BECAUSE of other "well meaning" people not MTOB.

I am NOT a child abuser, but I am a HUGE red flag in my area because of my homeschoolding, UCing, HBing, nonvaxing, and large number of children. People just automatically assume they can give me all sorts of advice and tell me how to raise my children, and when I disagree or do something that THEY feel is not right, they make a stink and cause a lot of trouble.

I have had many threats (CPS threats) made as well as several dealings with CPS because of this.

*I really wish people would MTOB much more often*.

I extended BF, babywear, and cosleep. I know with whom to share information and with whom to withhold it. Sadly, I never know how some people will react to the information I share with them. Once, when I was at a local salon, the recceptionist asked me if I was going to BF my first daughter. When I told her yes, she responded that I should stop once she is old enough to ask for it.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 







:

*You know, I really wish that you would stop attacking people like this.*









It's not really adding to the conversation. NO ONE has said that children are not human. NO ONE has said that they love slavery or that they hate civil rights.

But you are illustrating the point of why I think that sometimes it's better to not discuss parenting choices if you can't be civil, or are not in a place where you can even remotely start from a place of understanding. When you start out talking parenting issues and soon move on to insinuating anyone who doesn't agree with you hates children, thinks they're subhuman, and oh by the way is pro-slavery to boot--the person you're talking to will have (hopefully) turned off their listening from that kind of attack.

Thank you.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
I'm talking about what you are saying to people in the thread.

You're right, I have no idea how you respond to people face to face, most people I know are a little more bold online so perhaps that's a good thing.

*But I don't see ANYWHERE that Kirsten said in her posts that she thought children were "not human". And then you go on to say "people like you" in reference to people who agreed with slavery and fought civil rights? I'm sorry, but that is attacking people. It's unkind and unfair*.

You're right. I didn't. And the thing is, I agree with her. I would not, however, voice my opinion to someone who made different parenting choices than I.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
*yes people like her, not her*. and yes, there are also people like her who DONT think that way. But people believe in equal human rights for all people don't think that way and that is the distinguishing difference. The people who see think that children not having their rights honored is not the same thing as when the AAs didnt have their rights honored or not the same thing as when the women didnt have their rights honored. And Kirsten is one who thinks its not the same thing. It doesn't mean she agrees with those things, obviously as she said they are not similar things, but it's people who think along those lines (just differently - just in terms of children not being human or deserving of human rights) who are that way. It's noting against KIRSTEN for christ's sake I dont even know kirsten!

but obviously you want to single me out and nit pick at my words, your own form of attack. You have intentionally been unkind and unfair towards me simply because you perceived I was being unkind and unfair towards someone else

but hey, I am going to respect your choice to not mind your own business because I know you are doing it because you think you ar standing up for the rights of someone else. how about that for irony









Same thing. Just like telling someone that their choice is wrong isn't the same as telling them that _they_ are wrong. Sorry, but it's the same thing.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

no it's not the same thing. you have the right to choose to take it as the same thing if yu want to feel attacked, however I am not attacking you and it is not the same thing.

There are
1) people who think something is wrong and stand up for it (ex: Rosa Parks)
2) people who think something is wrong, but dont say anything there allowing the wrong doers to feel that acceptance is implied (ex:you)
3) people who are LIKE (but not the same) as people in catagory 2, who don't think its wrong

when it comes to hitting a child 2 and 3 are alike in that they look at it as a parent right, where as the people in 1 see it as a child's human right being violated.

When someone in catagory 2 says that a childs human rights being violated is not the same thing as a women or certain races human rights being vilated that may create some confusion as to whether or not that person is somewhere between catagories 2 and 3.

So since there was obviously some confusion on my part pease clarify.
Do you think Rosa Parks did the right thing by sitting in the front of the bus?
Do you think children are as human as adults of all genders and races?
Do you think it's a parents right to do something that goes against a child's human right simply because they are a parent?
and do you think its wrong for a person to exercise their freedom of speech and say something to help protect someone whose human rights are being attacked (this would include children if you believe that children are as human as other people)

but you like when people dont MTOB to stick up for you Kirsten, and you thank them. Perhaps there are children out there thanking me for not minding my own business.

However, I do see a difference between SAYING someone hit someone, and someone ACTUALLY hitting some one. In this case, Tiger felt the need to exercise her freedom of speech to stand up for your human rights because she wanted to SAY I was attacking you, when I actually was not. I personally DO mind my own business when someone's basic human rights are not being violated. I don't go up to someone who have never told me they hit their child and who I have never seen hit their child and advocate for the child. I make sure that I first KNOW without doubt the child is being hit. Tiger does not know without doubt I was not attacking you, but still did not mind her own business. Which again, is fine with me, I just think it weakens the rebuttal against my choosing not to mind my own business.

It's okay for someone to accuse someone of attacking someone when they are not, but when someone actually DOES attack someone (a child who CANT stand up for themself) then that is crossing a line somehow?


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KirstenMary* 

You're right. I didn't. And the thing is, I agree with her. I would not, however, voice my opinion to someone who made different parenting choices than I.

see this is why I am saying you and I are different. because you see it as a parenting choice when its really a voilation of human rights. and not my opinion of human rights, but the actual human rights. And why should children's human rights not be respected? are they not human too? You say you think they are human, but then you say its a parent has the right to violate the rights they should have as a human.

It just confuses me.
At the same time, if someone wants to say something to me about breastfeeding or co sleeping thats fine, they have the right to say that. Do I think those are MYOB subjects? Yes - BECAUSE THEY ARE PARENTING CHOICES I MAKE THAT *DONT* VIOLATE HUMAN RIGHTS. but if some one wants to say something about it fine, thats their choice. I am just saying, I only speak up when a person's human rights are being violated. the rest of the time I do mind my own business. From a moral standpoint, I don't think it's wrong to speak up against a persons rights being violated.

Take co-sleeping for example - how would that violate any humans right if they were co-sleeping willingly? Adult men and women co-sleep. So when someone speaks up against that they are discriminating, where as when someone speaks up against spanking they are requesting that the discrimination ends.

There are just a ton of laws corrupting the basic human rights by means of prejudice.

I realize you said I'm not going to change your mind. Personally I do not choose not to have my mind changed. I am open minded, and while my mind wont be changed if what the other person says feels wrong to me, I am not determined to think they are wrong just because I currently have a different opinion in place. I'd have to hear what they said first though, ya know? I couldn't know if they would change my mind or nit until after I heard what they had to say.

The only sense I can make of it, and I'm willing to have my mind changed if something said changes my mind, is that you can only truly know I can't change your mind if you are not willing to allow your mind to be changed?

I don't know what to make out of the idea of determining ahead of time that no matter what anyone says I wont change my mind just because... because why I don't even know? just because? My brain just isn't wired that way I guess. I can't know if what someone says will change my mind until I hear what they have to say.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

There is a distinct difference between thinking someone has made a bad or wrong choice and thinking the person is wrong. Just like I know the difference between my children's bad behaviour and who they are. Their behaviour is bad sometimes but they are not bad. We are not the sum of soley the bad choices we have made.

I think CPS should _only_ be invovled when there is no doubt a child is being abused. That means don't call because some one spanks their child, or breastfeeds passed the age of one, or co-sleeps, or makes their baby CIO etc. If someone is beating (and no matter how wrong spanking is there is a difference of degrees with hitting a child) their child or never feeding them or if a child is being sexually abused ect then that's when CPS should get involved.

Spanking and CIO are things that the culture needs to purge on it's own through dialogue and education, hopefully leading to a paradigm shift with in our culture. With circumcision laws prohibiting cosmetic genital surgery from being preformed on those who can not consent need to be in place (there is already one in place preventing it from being done to girls in the US), along with education on normal male anatomy.


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
see this is why I am saying you and I are different. because you see it as a parenting choice when its really a voilation of human rights.

I agree. I'm actually a little sad to think some people wouldn't say something when a child is being hit. Actually, it devastates me to think people must witness this and stand by and say nothing.

Makes me want to go spend half my day at the malls so I can make up for others who just think it's okay to beat a kid. Oh, I'm sorry - hit a kid. Spank a kid. Swat a kid. "Tap" a kid. It's all the same thing, no matter what pretty word you attach to it. And it's NEVER EVER _EVER_, under any circumstances, okay.

I should back out now, I'm feeling my blood pressure raise!


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

Well put Lavendar. I think sometimes these ideas that seem very simple to some are too complex for some others. You have to remember that the average IQ is 100, and here are people who are both above and below that average. Naturally though, there are more people in the average and lower catagory combined, as those are 2 catagroies and above average is only 1 catagory, and also more rare to acheive and above average IQ.

I bring this up because IQ measures a person's ability to naturally understand things. So some of us can naturally understand something and to us it seems SO simple, but other people may not be able to grasp our "complex" things (which again, to us isn't complex at all!)

Anyway, I am speaking about society as a whole. Society as a whole is naturally represented more so by the average-low IQ citizens because there are more of them. This is why often what is legal is not always what is right. I think voting is great, don't get me wrong, I just think sometimes it takes a little more effort to help people understand things so we can work towards making things right.

to clarify - the point of this is not that someone with a high enough IQ would agree with me, but that they would be more likely to see the connection and underlying patterns that the average person would not see - OR to be able to see another connection or underlying pattern, that if they explained to me I feel I would be able to recognize as well. That is not what I experience though when disagreed with on this subject. I experience people being unable to see the connections and patterns that are very clear and simple to me. It's not that they see a different deeper connection, its that they don't see any deeper connection. And also hence comes in the term ignorance is bliss because having these deeper understandings can certainly be a curse at times. It would be blissful if everything was just very simple and surface only, but I have yet to experience in life that is simply just surface. Everything in my experience has layers and connections and foundations. Below the grass is soil, and when I look at my front yard I can easily accept. What is out of reach for one person does not necessarily mean another person has to over reach to get to that point.

Also IQ and street smarts and social behavior do not always go hand in hand. Though some people with a high IQ may be exceptional in area of social behavioral patterns, others may excel in other areas. Though I will not sit here and claim that my opinion on social behaviors is right over the person who can understand the patterns in a way I cannot. I may be right in my mind, but I can respect that just because what they present me is out of reach did not mean they are over reaching in their findings.

It is what it is.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SandraS* 
I agree. I'm actually a little sad to think some people wouldn't say something when a child is being hit. Actually, it devastates me to think people must witness this and stand by and say nothing.

Makes me want to go spend half my day at the malls so I can make up for others who just think it's okay to beat a kid. Oh, I'm sorry - hit a kid. Spank a kid. Swat a kid. "Tap" a kid. It's all the same thing, no matter what pretty word you attach to it. And it's NEVER EVER _EVER_, under any circumstances, okay.

I should back out now, I'm feeling my blood pressure raise!









Thats how I feel when I witness it too. I would rather not see it, but when I do I know that saying something may help the future of our society. The message needs to be sent to that child that they don't deserve to be hit, and support needs to be offered to that parent if they are willing to accept it so they can find another way. It can be done compassionately, but I think its fair to do it. What I think is unfair, is turning away from it and sending a message of acceptance (whether intentional or not) That is unfair to the parent, to the child, to the people who have witnessed it, to the people who will in the future be in some way connected to the child who is being hit, etc. We need to send a message that across the board, children included, people deserve to have their human rights respected. This won't change if we keep looking at it as a parent's right to do, instead of a child's right being violated. Its not just my opinion though, it is fact that if children are human (which they are) that their right is being violated. A parent's right to hit was only a discrimination added against those rights. We've had to fight for rights to be respected before, as I explained earlier, and it's time we do it again. If you subtract the discrimination in the same way we have for other races and genders in the past then you are left with the true human right being applied. Thats when it becomes clear that its a matter of a child's human rights, not an adults parenting rights. Again, this is not my opinion, this is just the way it is when you strip away the prejudice.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
Well put Lavendar. I think sometimes these ideas that seem very simple to some are too complex for some others. You have to remember that the average IQ is 100, and here are people who are both above and below that average. Naturally though, there are more people in the average and lower catagory combined, as those are 2 catagroies and above average is only 1 catagory, and also more rare to acheive and above average IQ.

So now, people who don't agree with your methods or your reasoning are only disagreeing because they have lower IQ than you?

I did my time in gifted programs, went to and graduated college early, ect...and I think you're reaching here, intellectually and emotionally, as well as defeating your own purpose by constantly tying things to extremely high emotion issues (like slavery) as well as constantly throwing up illogical conclusions (you think children aren't human?).

You can be high IQ while being extremely emotionally immature. Most of us who were gifted children probably fell into that category at one point or another. You can be extremely smart and be utterly incapable of interacting socially with people because you have no empathy or capability to see the other side (for that matter, you can be really dumb and have the same problem). Some of the most brilliant people I know are also some of the least empathetic, which can take them down some dangerous roads. Some of the least bright people I know have a natural knack for empathy and thus are able to influence people to do the right thing.

You know, there are very few people who have disagreed with your idea that you should get involved when there is abuse. In fact, I don't think ANYONE has disagreed on that point. The problem lies in the *method* and *threshold*. So constantly throwing Rosa Parks at people is senseless, because *they are not disagreeing with you that children deserve the same rights as anyone else not to be violently assaulted*. I understand that you are using that example to show that there have been people who believe other certain categories of people are subhuman and thus shouldn't expect control and safety of their persons. But what I think you're seeming to not understand is that on that aspect of things we are ALL in AGREEMENT. Therefore you're trying to insert opposition where it doesn't exist, which makes people upset, which alienates your potential allies.

That yet again illustrates my point that this is why "arguing" and "debating" about parenting is extremely tricky. It is FAR too easy to be swept away in one's passionate emotions, to the point that you either go way over the top or you are blinded to the areas where you agree (and what you can use as touchpoints to connect and make your point). Once you accuse people of loving slavery and being against civil rights, though, I think it's a little like accusing someone of being a Nazi (assuming they're not a skinhead/seperatist). You have lost, ultimately, because the listener can't listen to you anymore, and you have totally destroyed any chance you have at connecting with them and influencing them. Now, you might say, "but I only said people LIKE you," ect. Come on, now. We're both at the nice end of the bell curve. And I think we both know, or should, that that kind of fancy footwork semantics is meant to be provocative, if not outright hurtful. I'm sure you meant that to make people stop and think. I'm asking you to consider that most times, it will just make people STOP, and then think *defensively*, not openly.

Does that make any sense at all to you?


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

That was not what I said Tiger, but I have a feeling you know what I meant.

As for inserting opposition no. There disagreement in this thread lies in whether or not you should speak up or mind your own business, and I am sharing why I think I should speak up and other are opposing that idea. If someone feels opposed to what I say that is how they feel, I am not inserting it though.

You also forget the person I was corresponding with told me from the get go she was not willing to change her mind, so at that point she was choosing not have alliance with me. You cannot push away someone as a potential alliance who states clearly that nothing you say would change their mind to make them join alliance with you. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. For an interesting twist to that I didn't gain an ally, sure, but that was primarily do the other person not willing to venture.

I am not approaching anyones actions specifically though, I was demonstrating how our society (not MDC) is failing to see that we are repeating our mistakes when it comes to equality and human rights. I was then told that those equal human rights were different when it comes to children, so I didn't feel like the other person was agreeing with me. I respect the connection is not clear to you, but that does not mean it is not there. To me it is a very obvious connection and not over reaching. You may disagree that the connection is clear, but just because something is not clear to you does not mean it is over reaching. I suggest that it could just as easily be out of reach for someone to understand as it could be over reaching of me to say. You think the latter, I think the former. Is your opinion that Im over reaching right just because you say so? Because in my eyes either of us could be right in that regard. Maybe you are right, maybe I'm over reaching. The thing is it's not causing my any strain to make this connecting, I'm don't feel reaching, only you are perceiving the ideas as being very far apart. So that is why I feel its more likely that the connection is out of reach for some people, not that other who understand it clearly are over reaching. So I agree to disagree there, but thats why I think I'm right just as you shared reasons why you think you are right. I would never say I am right just because I said so though, and I don't think you would either, so I can hope you can see that we are just looking at this different. It doesn't make me attacking you any more then it makes you attacking me.

I am talking about something much deeper here then what you seem to be connecting to in my words. As I said, I'm not getting into a discussion of these theories with some one on the street. We need to approach with compassion and support, of course. I'm not discussing those merits though, I am discussing the merits of whether or not we should approach (which is what this thread is about) and there are some deeper things going on to consider in making that choices - and yes it does connect the very core of the same deeper things that once kept certain genders and races at a lower level in society, even though they were equally human. The hot button issue is now children, but it wasn't only. What society fails to see is the connection, to which you also admit to not seeing. I am talking about the underlying issue that is being lost here, not about specific cases. When its time to talk about underlying issues I talk about that, when its time to "interfere" I offer guidance, compassion, and support to both the parent and child. It's not about any individual person right now, is about a concept (human rights) that is overall remaining lost even though our inability to understand (as a whole) has "taught us our lesson" twice before. History has a way of repeating itself, and that is what we see here.. well, what some of us see here. As I said, it's a complex concept and yes I do believe that some people don't understand it. Would you prefer I think that they understand it and just don't care if children's humans rights are respected? I would like to think that is they understood they wouldn't want to hurt children. I don't think that is a bad way to think.

I am not trying to convince anyone here to not hit their child, or to think that hitting a child is wrong. I am sharing my opinion on why I dont "mind my own business" when it comes to those things, and yes, people ARE disagreeing with me on whether or not one should. And I am one. And I do. So the disagreement is clearly there.

Can you see how the discussion on whether or not hitting is wrong is different from the discussion on whether or not we should say something when we see a child being hit? Sure, they are connected, but the approaches and discussions are very different.

Since you choose to continue to manipulate what I am saying though I will not continue to discuss this with you if you do it again. You can choose to continue to manipulate what I say, but I can choose to not continue the correspondence which gives you the opportunity to do that. Hope you have a great day.

To the OP I will try to put my standpoint as simply as possible:

1) I believe in freedom of speech, so as far as rights are concerned I think people have the right to speak up about anything they want. I only exercise my right to freedom of speech to speak up in instances where another person's freedoms are being violated.
2) but from a moral standpoint, yes I do think people should mind their own business, with the exception of people's rights being violated. As I stand up for another persons rights being violated I stand up for my own rights, so it IS my business. I stand up to say any violation of human rights its inexcusable, and in doing so I am making an effort to protect my own rights.
3) I feel that our rights end where another's begins. In other words, freedom over self, not freedom to infringe on another person's freedom.


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

Ok, playing devil's advocate.

FTR: I am anti-spanking, pro-civil rights, anti-slavery, believe children are human beings, believe it is right to denounce obvious wrongs, also think MYOB is a good general policy. And I have a higher than average IQ.









BUT: Imagine you see a mom haul off and smack her kiddo in the parking lot of your local Wal-Mart.

You, crusading avenger, approach this hypothetical evil, wrong, bad person and in your loudest voice start berating her for hitting her child.

My question is: do you really think you have made anything better for that particular child? If you embarrass the mother, how do you know she isn't going to go home and take it out on her kids? How do you know you aren't going to make things sooooo much worse for that little kiddo?

You know, there are many, many effective ways to advocate change in the world. Educate people (but don't lecture them). Give them tools to improve their parenting (but only if they ask for help). Petition lawmakers, contact media.

But picking on individuals makes you look like a self-righteous bully. It doesn't help the individual in question and can even put their children at further risk.

I don't understand why *you* can't grasp this.

And please, please, please stop insulting people who don't think the "commenting loudly in public" policy is the best way of reaching out and helping people on their individual life journey.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

I cant answer that question since
1) I would not think of her as an evil, wrong, or bad person
2) would not talk to her in a loud voice
3) would not berate her

maybe someone who does that can answer your question.

However, I do think that when I go up to them and say "That was very hard for me to see, reminded me of being a child, and I know it must have been even harder for you. They are so tough at that age. I read this book (insert book rec here) and found it really helpful in learning ways to discipline that was can use without it effecting our own peace and happiness."

(yes, I realize this assumes that people would not hit their children if they knew there was another way, and assumes that people owuld prefer to gain compliance without violence, and thats not always the case, but when thats not the case and the people DO enjoy hitting their kids nothing I said is going to be the cause of it being worse - those people would only be using me as an excuse, and if it wasnt me speaking up it would have been something else)

if it opens up a doorway for more conversation then fine, if they tell me to mind my own business I will walk away but either way I have helped the situation.

I 1) was honest about how her behavior effects others around her, that people notice, and now she may stop doing it in public, reducing the risks of someone else doing something rash like calling CPS on her.
2) offered compassion and support
3) sent the message to the child that I dont think they deserve that, and that there is another way (and hopefully that is the way they will tap into when they are parents themselves- but at least they know oh hey, i DONT deserve to be hit. love doesnt have to come with pain!

so in my approach I think that
do you really think you have made anything better for that particular child?
yes
If you embarrass the mother, how do you know she isn't going to go home and take it out on her kids?
I cant say for sure they would be embarrassed or what they would do at home but I can say that a parent who hits a child because someone caught them hitting a child is pretty far into it, and would have found another reason to hit that child anyway. at least if that happens the child will know they dont deserve it.
How do you know you aren't going to make things sooooo much worse for that little kiddo?
I am not the one hitting them, and I am not the one making things so much. As I said, things are going to be bad either way, but it will be better because the child will know that one more person than before exists in this world that thinks they dont deserve to be caused physical pain.

Also I am not operating under the mindset of "if they do that in public imagine what they must be doing at home" Usually parents see no wrong in what they do or don't care. Many times what you see is the same kind of thing that goes on at home. So it's not like they are going to act all sweet then go home and kill the kid. Though, yes, there were parents like mine who NEVER hit in public but most certainly were raging lunatics behind closed doors. And I'm sure there is that in between - the person who hits their child in public but saves full on beating for home, but there really is no guarantee that its going to be one way or the other and when it comes to those people really beat on their kids, openly or privately, the best I can really hope for (besides them changing their ways) is for the child to know they don't deserve whats being done to them. Very rarely do I hear of people who just spank in public but then beat their child at home. Abusive folk generally either have the self control to wait until they get home to explode, or have no self control on explode on the scene. They don't usually just go part of the way in public and then all full blown at home. They are often angry, reactive people who don't know when to stop or have such anger issues that they cant stop themselves even if they wanted to. When dealing with these people, speaking up is not going to make the childs life harder. Their life is painfully, excruciatingly hard either way, but at least they can know they dont deserve for it to be that way.


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SandraS* 
I agree. *I'm actually a little sad to think some people wouldn't say something when a child is being hit. Actually, it devastates me to think people must witness this and stand by and say nothing.*

Makes me want to go spend half my day at the malls so I can make up for others who just think it's okay to beat a kid. Oh, I'm sorry - hit a kid. Spank a kid. Swat a kid. "Tap" a kid. It's all the same thing, no matter what pretty word you attach to it. And it's NEVER EVER _EVER_, under any circumstances, okay.

I should back out now, I'm feeling my blood pressure raise!









nak

I havent had the chance to read everything yet, but I had to respond to this. Do you think this is about hitting???????? It's not. If you think so, you might have missed several posts.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

all my posts were most directly related to hitting. It's the ONLY thing I ever approach in person. I will join discussion online about other things though. I did understand the point of view on circ too, but that is not something that I have ever seen someone doing in a grocery store or the mall or anywhere else for that matter. But you are right, I probably would say something if I saw someone circumcising their baby in a parking lot. If its in a doctors office I'm not there to know about it to say anything to begin with.

Even a crying baby I wont say anything because I realize that can be taken out of context (like a baby in a stroller who is crying not because the parent practices CIO or doesn't want to hold the baby, but because she knows her baby gets overstimulated and that she can put the baby down for a minute or two and he'll just fall asleep but holding him would make him cry longer and harder) I don't see how hitting a child (in the ways I have seen it done) could be misinterpreted or taken out of context though, which is why its something I feel comfortable speaking up about.

As or the other issues and online - yeah I'll talk about circ if someone asks, I'll debate about cosleeping, I'll advocate on proper car seat use, I'll advocate for night time parenting instead of CIO, etc. basically yes, in a forum designed for discussing those things I will discuss them.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 
Imagine you see a mom haul off and smack her kiddo in the parking lot of your local Wal-Mart.

You, crusading avenger, approach this hypothetical evil, wrong, bad person and in your loudest voice start berating her for hitting her child.

My question is: do you really think you have made anything better for that particular child? If you embarrass the mother, how do you know she isn't going to go home and take it out on her kids? How do you know you aren't going to make things sooooo much worse for that little kiddo?

i can't imagine any scenario where approaching someone in this situation would not make things worse. i agree that it is entirely possible that berating the mother and undermining her authority in front of her children might lead to her feeling the need to reassert her authority more violently in the privacy of her own home.

the other scenario i see is a mother who is overwhelmed, had a bad day, at her wits end etc. who lost her temper, acted impulsively and smacked her child. a total stranger calling her out and berating her for her actions will just make her feel awful. she may be as against spanking as the rest of us are but lost control and did not have the tools to deal with the situation. it happens, we all screw up sometimes....making a spectacle of someone else's already bad situation will do no good.

the only time IMO where these things can really make a difference is when you are talking to someone you know and care about. friends, relatives, etc. who you share things with anyway. i ALWAYS (literally always IRL) talk about things in a 'well in my experience" kind of way. not in a right or wrong way no matter how much i believe that to be the case. i think it is a good way to talk about things without making people feel like your telling them how to do things.

circing is harder for me... i don't think RIC is ever right... and i have never really been able to bring it up or had it come up in a conversation... i am sure if someone i knew was pg with a boy i would find a way to give her some info. spanking is another toughie.. i wouldn't say anything to a random stranger without a good reason (i would say a store clerk or something asking them not to spank in the middle of the store but people feel this way about NIP and while i see a difference i don't think everyone would) in the case of a friend i would try to be gentle and understanding and find a way to share my own experience without saying she is out right wrong. the people i am closest to at the moment have the same view on spanking as i do. most of us were never spanked and the ones that were think its an awful thing to do to your kids. i try to remind myself that many people who spank their children were spanked themselves and either don't know another way or do not think that it was harmful to them at all.







my friends who were spanked were not spanked calmly, did not know why they were being spanked etc... but this is not the way it is for everyone and while i do believe spanking is always wrong i also believe that there are different ways and some are better then others.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

I said something to someone who was beating a child in public once (well guess what one defines as beating but it was more then a spanking, the person was hitting the child randomly while yelling at them) and I said something. I don't know how it turned out other then I wasn't the only one who noticed, more official people got involved, offer the family parenting support, and it turnd out the person hitting the child was not the parent but a grandparent.

little i agree with this:
i try to remind myself that many people who spank their children were spanked themselves and either don't know another way or do not think that it was harmful to them at all.

thats why I say something, because I really think if people knew there was a way to discipline without hitting that they would choose it. Sure, not everyone would, but I think many less people would spank if they didnt feel like they had to, because I really dont think people enjoy hurting their children.


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
all my posts were most directly related to hitting. It's the ONLY thing I ever approach in person. I will join discussion online about other things though. I did understand the point of view on circ too, but that is not something that I have ever seen someone doing in a grocery store or the mall or anywhere else for that matter. But you are right, I probably would say something if I saw someone circumcising their baby in a parking lot. If its in a doctors office I'm not there to know about it to say anything to begin with.

Even a crying baby I wont say anything because I realize that can be taken out of context (like a baby in a stroller who is crying not because the parent practices CIO or doesn't want to hold the baby, but because she knows her baby gets overstimulated and that she can put the baby down for a minute or two and he'll just fall asleep but holding him would make him cry longer and harder) I don't see how hitting a child (in the ways I have seen it done) could be misinterpreted or taken out of context though, which is why its something I feel comfortable speaking up about.

As or the other issues and online - yeah I'll talk about circ if someone asks, I'll debate about cosleeping, I'll advocate on proper car seat use, I'll advocate for night time parenting instead of CIO, etc. basically yes, in a forum designed for discussing those things I will discuss them.

nak

mine were related to circing.


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## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

I'll gladly give info or experience if someone asks for it or opened a discussion on a parenting topic I have input on. Otherwise, I pretty much keep it to myself. As I get further along in this parenting journey I realize more and more that everyone's different and has a different way of doing things. I feel like there is this wave you go through when you have kids... when you're pregnant for the first time, you are pretty sure you know what to expect, then you have your baby and you realize you know nothing. You get that under control and think you know everything and eventually you mellow out and settle somewhere in the middle. Well that's my experience anyway.


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

I'm very judgmental







but keep my opinions to myself unless asked. Everyone has the right to live and parent as they see fit. Except for spanking--that I can't handle.


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