# My daughter's difficult behavior is being controlled by meds.



## dolphinkisser (Dec 26, 2003)

:







..hello...i have been a long time lurker and Mothering subscriber since i was pregnant with my first child in '86. I have enjoyed reading your posts and learned a lot.
However i am in kind of a desperate situation and which has prompted me to write and ask for any ideas from all earthmama's








The problem is dd who is 10 years old and has always been oppositional and defiant, unable to take no for an answer. This year it crossed over to school because she does not like her teacher and she felt that her classmates made fun of her. She refused to go to school , she plopped into the principals office and refused to budge and the principal would call me and ask me what i should do.
So we put her into a 30 day intensive day treatment program to help her with her anxiety. She was seen by a psychatrist and she recommended me to give her a small dose of Respiradol.
I was appalled at first to give my daughter any medicine but i have tried every thing else...lavender therapy, rescue remedy , chamomile tea, teaching her deep breathing and meditation, firm back massages. I still ended up with this frustrated angry girl who would take things out at me and throw things, kick me , hit me and her younger sister.
I finally conceded and started giving her the small dose of respiradol. It was very strange to me and guilt inducing since i have in the past fought desperately to keep my own son off Ritalin when he was diagnosed with ADD. He did a great job overcoming and compensating.
Now that Nina is on respiradol , she is a completelt different person..very calm and loving. We are having the kind of relationship i always dreamed of having with my daughter. I am still guilt ridden and resent the fact that i had to put her on medicine to get have that effect and also to maintain a peaceful home. Any ( gentle







) insights would be appreciated. Leaza


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## LiamnEmma (Nov 20, 2001)

well, in the end, I think you need to do what your dd needs you to do, and if this gives her peace, then maybe it's the right thing to do. It sounds like you've tried lots of things. Remember, medication is a dating relationship, not a marriage.


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## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

don't feel bad! if she was diabetic and you had to give her insulin, would you feel like a failure?

you are a great mom -- and now that she has medication to help her with a problem that is obviously at least partly due to a chemical imbalance, your other loving interventions will be given the chance to work.

be thankful your daughter is healthier now. i hope that the need for medication is temporary, but if not, then be thankful it exists.


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## hvl25 (Jan 28, 2003)

Just remember you are doing what is best for your daughter. You tried everything before this to help her with no avail. You know what your daughter needs







s


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## MisfitMama (Sep 4, 2003)

Hello,

Don't take this personally, but my theory on medicating ANYONE in a family for any type of psychological reason, is that medication should never be prescribed without counseling. And if it's a child, I think the whole family should go in for counseling, because children often act out weird undercurrents that have more to do with the parents than the children.

Anyway, I know that is the route I plan to take if I ever have to make the choice to medicate my child. You wouldn't believe what a difference therapy can make! (I owe my sanity, my marriage, and my great relationship with my ds to therapy!)

Also, have you done any reading on the subject, outside of the realm of treating it as a medical problem? I bet there is some good info on the Natural Child Project website. Also, I just read this fascinating book called _Your Competent Child_ by Jesper Juul, wherein he gives lots of examples of kids acting out angrily when there is some kind of family imbalance.

Just some thoughts!

Good Luck,

MisfitMama


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

I'm sorry you're going thur all this.

It sounds like you certainly didn't turn to medication first. You tried many, many things to help your daughter.

I have a close friend whose daughter has some anxiety issues. They looked at her problem just like anything else-something that needed to be addressed & treated. She is on meds, and they really help her. If your daughters doc (that you hopefully trust and respect) recognized a problem that could be helped with meds, well, then, she probably needs them. Even for a short time.


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## MisfitMama (Sep 4, 2003)

BTW,

I did not mean to imply that I don't think you have tried a lot of things! It sounds like you *have* - I just noticed you didn't mention whole-family therapy, that's all. I'm not trying to blame you - I was just responding to your request for "insights."

Also, I did not make clear that I think it's almost certainly necessary to get on and/or continue medication even while looking into and/or going to therapy. This case sounds pretty extreme, and I'm sure that having her behavior under control on a day-to-day basis is very important.

I always feel guilty when I suggest to anyone that they try therapy - I don't know why - people always act offended, but really, it's a wonderful thing, and it certainly can't hurt in any situation (unless you get a terrible therapist). Hmmm. . .if I had to go through dealing with a daughter who had those problems, I'd want therapy anyway! It must be extremely difficult!

Feeling Weird,

MisfitMama


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## dolphinkisser (Dec 26, 2003)

Wow..thanks for all the support and replies. No misfit mama , i did not at all feel judged by you, so please don't feel wierd







.
Actually, yes, dh, ds and myself are in 'family therapy'. It has not been a positive thing for my daughter. She will bring something into session ( ie a book or cards) so that she can focus on them and avoid talking about anything. She does not open up...it came to me that she feels overwhelmed with 3 adults and her...it is sort of like us 3 against her. We try to convey that we are working WITH her, but that is not her reality. The therapist is going to try to find another way. She loves group therapy with other kids.
Misfit mama...It seems like you have had such a better time with therapists than i have...maybe i just need to find the right one. We went to a private therapist...just dd and i and every session the therapist would tell me how i am to blame and tell me things i do wrong , like if dd lies, i should not call her on it and agree with everything she says. EVERY time i got out of that therapy session, i ended up in tears







. I thought to myself..75 dollars a half hour is too much to spend feeling this way. If i want to feel bad i could just turn on the news channel for free. Besides...she would throw something at me and just in the middle of me needing to deal with it ,she would say "OK, times up...i'll see you next week at such and such"
Well, just wanted to tell you all the background i have had with my daughter and therapy. Thanks again for all of your wonderful support...i certainly do feel better. Speaking of feeling wierd..it feels 'wierd' that my daughter is so loving and cooperative. I am so used to having to put my energy into dealing with her tantrums and bouts of anger and physical aggression. I'm sure that i will get used to it.







. Thanks again for your encouragement and support. You are all a great bunch of mamas







. Peace to you all! Leaza


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## MisfitMama (Sep 4, 2003)

DolphinKisser,

Oh! It's so great to hear that you are all attempting therapy! Well, yes, I think it DOES totally depend on the therapist. I had one once that was just horrible - she literally had nothing to say to me, and I could tell she was not very intelligent. I think you have to do some interviewing over the phone, to get a feel. My DH and I lucked out with the one we have now. I didn't know *what* to look for, but I just knew I wanted a woman b/c I consider females a subculture, and therefore I don't think men can totally understand us. And DH comes from his own subculture - he's Jewish, and he didn't think anyone who wasn't Jewish could understand HIM! So, we picked a female Jew, and she is fabulous! (Maybe you should try that, too! :LOL )

If it makes you feel any better, too, my mother dragged me to therapy when I was your DD's age exactly, and I acted just the way she is acting now. I remember, I would play with the leaves of the plant next to the couch, and refuse to participate. They were all so upset at me, but I refused to speak. In retrospect, I think it was because my mother expected me to express my feelings in front of this stranger, and that made me mad because no one was allowed to express feelings in my family without feeling extremely vulnerable/ashamed. Therefore, I felt like my mom was "cheating" or "tricking me" by trying to make me do it in front of this woman (and making me look bad because I wouldn't!) -- this is how I saw it at the time. Also, I was for some reason the "focal point" of the family - maybe your DD is, too. I felt like everone in the family thought there was something wrong with ME, when in fact, I was sure there was something wrong with all of THEM! (And 20 years later I can safely say, there was a lot wrong with every one of us!) Who knows why your DD is like that, but this is *my* *personal* experience.

So, my family therapy crashed and burned, too. Maybe the therapist wasn't good enough? Well, I would have done much better in group therapy with peers - what a great idea! That's great that she has that option.

Well, I say bravo! to you for trying so hard, and my advice is to keep looking for a therapist you "click" with. I'll give you an anecdote from my sister that might help:

My sister was in therapy with the same therapist for years. Then one day she was at a concert downtown with a friend, when all of the sudden her friend shouted, "Oh my gosh! There's my therapist!" and she ran up to her and they gave each other a big hug. And my sister just stood there with her mouth literally hanging open, b/c she would not have hugged *her* therapist for a million dollars. And she realized then that she needed to get a therapist that was someone she would actually *want to be friends with* if she wasn't her therapist. Or at least someone she'd like to bump into! I can't say that my therapist and I would hug if we saw each other, but I *really* like and respect her, and I wouldn't be surprised if I ran into her someday at some function where we had mutual friends/acquaintances. Does that help? Also, you can screen therapists by what kinds of books they recommend or what kind of training they've had. A therapist that actually blames you is **CREEPY** IMO. (Does she actually say, "______ is your fault?" Random.

I know a lot of people who can't seem to find good therapists - maybe someone should start a thread on finding good ones around the country.

MisfitMama


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Risperdol is an antipsychotic medication. I didn't know it was given to kids who are just being difficult. Did the doctor explain to you (and her too, I hope) anything about this medication? Risks, alternatives, anything? It's not often a first-choice drug for non-psychotic conditions.

It's sometimes prescribed as an anti-anxiety drug when a doctor fears traditional anti-anxiety drugs will be addictive or otherwise unsuitable, but benzodiazepines have a much lower risk to them. Antipsychotics were never meant to be used as benzos.

You said she doesn't like her teacher...did you ask why not? It could be there is a very valid reason. When did the school problems start? When did she say she didn't like her teacher? She also said the other kids were making fun of her; most likely that's true if she says it was. Many kids are made fun of in school and I don't think it's normal or healthy or something people need to get used to; I think it's damaging and should be looked at more. Is she getting a chance to talk about all this?

From what I understand about Risperdol or any other antipsychotic, be on the watch for side effects such as muscle stiffness and hand/face tremors. They could be a sign of something more serious.


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## dolphinkisser (Dec 26, 2003)

From my experience as a Special Education teacher and from talking to other parents, Repirodol is quite commonly given to childen with anxiety problems. The psychiatrist said that she felt that the reason behind her lack of self-control was high anxiety. DD is on a low dose and i refuse to go any higher because i think i am getting the desired result from this small dose.
DD has always been difficult at home ( before meds) screaming kicking , being physically aggressive, putting herself in danger ( ie running away and hiding when it is dark...i have had to call a missing child report ) but until this year she always loved school. She loved her fourth grade teacher who was so positive and nurturing.
She started the middle school and that is where the problems began. She has 2 teachers and she does not like them both. One of them i don't even like ..she talks to me very condescerndingly and i resent that. She has a reputation ( from kids and other teachers) as constantly yelling. The other teacher is pleasant but dd says that she has no control of the class and that is where the teasing goes on.
DD refused to go to class and would sit in the principals office and the principal would call me and ask me what i thought he should do. I told him to get someone she has a good rapport with( there are a few teachers she likes in that school) and he did. But she also refused to do any work ,she would just sit there and draw all day. So she was recommended for a 30 day intensive day treatment program ( at the same school that i work at) and she has been doing her work wonderfully. She does not get teased because it is a small class and she loves her teacher aide. She does the same work as her class but she is not getting enough work...her regular teachers are saying that she is finishing too fast. One of her target skills is " Handling teasing in a good way." We'll see what happens when this 30 day intensive treatment is over...which is in about 2 and a half weeks.
I know this is long but i know there were some questions and i just wanted to clarify the kind of problems my daughter was having.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*Risperdol is an antipsychotic medication. I didn't know it was given to kids who are just being difficult. Did the doctor explain to you (and her too, I hope) anything about this medication? Risks, alternatives, anything? It's not often a first-choice drug for non-psychotic conditions.

It's sometimes prescribed as an anti-anxiety drug when a doctor fears traditional anti-anxiety drugs will be addictive or otherwise unsuitable, but benzodiazepines have a much lower risk to them. Antipsychotics were never meant to be used as benzos.

You said she doesn't like her teacher...did you ask why not? It could be there is a very valid reason. When did the school problems start? When did she say she didn't like her teacher? She also said the other kids were making fun of her; most likely that's true if she says it was. Many kids are made fun of in school and I don't think it's normal or healthy or something people need to get used to; I think it's damaging and should be looked at more. Is she getting a chance to talk about all this?

From what I understand about Risperdol or any other antipsychotic, be on the watch for side effects such as muscle stiffness and hand/face tremors. They could be a sign of something more serious.*
I wish you would post FACTS about Risperdal when you post. Risperdal is given for many reasons and it is an antipsyhcotic. It is given to children who have ODD, rage, have bipolar disorder and anxiety. Side effects like you mentioned do not usually occur until someone is taking 5-6 mg of the medication per day. Children are not usually put on this high of a dosage.
My son is on Risperdal and has early onset bipolar disorder. I havent had a rage, violent outburst, night terrors, and a slew of other behavioral problems since he has been on Risperdal. He has no side effects thus far and is on 1mg per day at this point. It is controlling the mania and oppositional defiant behaviors as well. Many times these children who are have ODD and have anxiety often do not know why they have the anxiety. They just do. They often dont know what sets them off. Drilling them with questions often irritates them further and makes them angry or sad. Dylan at even 3.5 knows that the medication helps him. He is much happier and his disposition is different.
Most of us who chose medicaton did so as a last resort. We are usually very aware of the side effects, I know our dr gave us handouts and spoke to us at length about the side effects.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by dolphinkisser_
*From my experience as a Special Education teacher and from talking to other parents, Repirodol is quite commonly given to childen with anxiety problems. The psychiatrist said that she felt that the reason behind her lack of self-control was high anxiety. DD is on a low dose and i refuse to go any higher because i think i am getting the desired result from this small dose.
DD has always been difficult at home ( before meds) screaming kicking , being physically aggressive, putting herself in danger ( ie running away and hiding when it is dark...i have had to call a missing child report ) but until this year she always loved school. She loved her fourth grade teacher who was so positive and nurturing.
*
Know that you have support here. Like you, I did everything for Dylan before going on to medicaiton. Who wants there kids to be on these drugs? For us it was big step and I am so glad we did it, and did it now before he has too low of self esteem or has other social problems due to his behaviors. Also some of his behaviors were dangerous to himself and others.
I am not sure if you have ever read the Eplosive Child or the Bipolar Child but they are good books for those of us with children like this. The Defiant Child is also a good book too.









Kim


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

Side effects like you mentioned do not usually occur until someone is taking 5-6 mg of the medication per day.
I once supervised 50 people who were taking either Risperdal, Zyprexa, Seroquel or Geodon, which I'm sure you know are all the new "atypical antipsychotics." None of them took it for anything but psychoses. The majority of the people were on Risperdal, and the highest dose was only 2 mg. They all developed the side effects after only a month on the drug, and they were all routinely given anti-parkinsonian medication.

Only a few of the people on either drug had taken other antipsychotics (such as Haldol) before, leading me to believe their symptoms were caused by the new drugs.

Once again, facts! Perhaps you will post some of your own.


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Can I recommend P.E.T. from Thomas Gordon? He helps a lot with ideas for families to communicate better.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*I once supervised 50 people who were taking either Risperdal, Zyprexa, Seroquel or Geodon, which I'm sure you know are all the new "atypical antipsychotics." None of them took it for anything but psychoses. The majority of the people were on Risperdal, and the highest dose was only 2 mg. They all developed the side effects after only a month on the drug, and they were all routinely given anti-parkinsonian medication.

Only a few of the people on either drug had taken other antipsychotics (such as Haldol) before, leading me to believe their symptoms were caused by the new drugs.

Once again, facts! Perhaps you will post some of your own.*
I am sorry but I dont believe you. I have been reading about Risperdal for almost 2 months and on dosages under 5-6mg the side effects you mentioned are VERY REMOTE. I would think if 50 people had these types of side effects at such a low dosage of 2mg than we would be reading about it in medical journals.

Nope not buying it.

Edited to add sources:
The Risperdal Website
J Am Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry 1999 Mar;38(3):230 (ISSN: 0890-8567)
An open trial of risperidone in autistic children]
No To Hattatsu 2003 Nov;35(6):473-7 (ISSN: 0029-0831) <-- this particular one none of the children suffered from none of the side effects you listed)
[Treatment of acute bipolar disorder. Intriguing balancing act between mania and depression]MMW Fortschr Med 2003 May 26;145 Suppl 2:27-30
Similarities and differences among antipsychotics.
J Clin Psychiatry 2003;64 Suppl 17:7-10
Risperidone improves behavior in children with autism.
J Fam Pract 2002 Nov;51(11):915
Comparing the side effect profile of the atypical antipsychotics.
West Afr J Med 2002 Oct-Dec;21(4):313-5

This one should interest you:
Risperidone, 2 mg/day vs. 4 mg/day, in first-episode, acutely psychotic patients: treatment efficacy and effects on fine motor functioning.
J Clin Psychiatry 2002 Oct;63(10):885-91
And this one even more:
Long-term safety and efficacy of risperidone for the treatment of disruptive behavior disorders in children with subaverage IQs.
Pediatrics 2002 Sep;110(3):e34
[Discusses side effects, dosages, etc in the children, the percentage of children who experienced the side effects you mentioned and the dosages of those particular children -- which was higher than 2mg per day]

Risperidone in the treatment of autistic Thai children under 4 years of age.
J Med Assoc Thai 2002 Aug;85 Suppl 2:S784-9

These are just a few of course. Luckily I have access to a medical school library. I believe the percentage of the parkinsons like side effects you mentioned with this drug occurs .7 percent in patients taking 2mg or less.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

You don't have to believe anything I say. _I_ know what's really true - as do countless other people - so the fact that you are misinformed means nothing to me. I know there are others on this board who do find value in what I have to say. I could get out my psychiatric journals, but since you probably wouldn't believe them either I won't waste my time. Some of us only believe what we want to believe.

Many of the others on Risperdal were on .5 to 1 mg, and they still developed the side effects.

To the OP - you say you don't like one of your dd's teachers either. That's unfortunate. A lot of children benefit from a change in schools, but it's not feasible for every family. And some children don't like the idea of change at all. Have you asked her what she would change about her school, if she could? Is it just the teachers and the students who are teasing her, or are there other things she is unhappy with? How is she on weekends and summers? Does she have friends at school?

It's too bad that the ones who are being bullied have to learn how to deal with it, instead of the bullies learning how not to be bullies. Though in some schools that is changing as well, as teachers see how the bullies are ruining things for the other kids.


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## dolphinkisser (Dec 26, 2003)

Thanks for your support onthefence. It is nice to get insight from someone who has been through exactly what i am going through. To watch your own child be out of control and be hurtful to themselves and others is a very painful experience and i would not wish it upon anybody.
Greaseball...you had said that you said that you supervised 50 PEOPLE who had been prescribed respiridol as well as other 'anti-psychotic' I am kind of having a disconnect with your statement because from what i know, Respiridol is prescribed for children. None of the students i have known to be on respirodol have needed medicine to prevent Parkinson symptoms.
I understand your stand against medication and i have struggled with this issue as well but if there is something that is going to keep my child safe physically from harming herself ( running out in the middle of the night barefoot in the snow when everyone is asleep is one example) then i have to do what i need to do. She is much happier, calmer and more loving and i feel blessed to have the opportunity to get to know this amazing human that she was all along but was unable to express.
If you have went through the same situation with your child and have found an alternative to medication ( respiridol) that has helped just as well , i would be happy to have you share that with me







. Peace from Leaza


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

Greaseball...you had said that you said that you supervised 50 PEOPLE who had been prescribed respiridol as well as other 'anti-psychotic' I am kind of having a disconnect with your statement because from what i know, Respiridol is prescribed for children. None of the students i have known to be on respirodol have needed medicine to prevent Parkinson symptoms.
It's prescribed for adults, mostly, because adults have higher rates of psychosis than children. I worked with mainly adults and adolescents. The small number of young children I worked with were not on meds. I actually didn't know it was being prescribed for children until I read from moms on this board (since I've been off the job for a few years...)

I actually don't have a stand against or for drugs, hard to believe...I support anyone's right to take whatever drug they want, but when you add issues like informed consent and children's rights, it gets more tricky.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*You don't have to believe anything I say. I know what's really true - as do countless other people - so the fact that you are misinformed means nothing to me. I know there are others on this board who do find value in what I have to say. I could get out my psychiatric journals, but since you probably wouldn't believe them either I won't waste my time. Some of us only believe what we want to believe.

*
Post your proof. And lets not pull crap off some ambulance chasing attorney website either. I just went back and posted articles to back up what I said. You havent posted anything of substances to back your claims.
Please pull these psychiatric journals out. I just posted above in my edited post plenty of references from psychaitric journals.
YOU are the one misinformed or just have VERY out of date information.
Here they are again for you in case you missed them.
Edited to add sources:
The Risperdal Website
J Am Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry 1999 Mar;38(3):230 (ISSN: 0890-8567)
An open trial of risperidone in autistic children]
No To Hattatsu 2003 Nov;35(6):473-7 (ISSN: 0029-0831) <-- this particular one none of the children suffered from none of the side effects you listed)
[Treatment of acute bipolar disorder. Intriguing balancing act between mania and depression]MMW Fortschr Med 2003 May 26;145 Suppl 2:27-30
Similarities and differences among antipsychotics.
J Clin Psychiatry 2003;64 Suppl 17:7-10
Risperidone improves behavior in children with autism.
J Fam Pract 2002 Nov;51(11):915
Comparing the side effect profile of the atypical antipsychotics.
West Afr J Med 2002 Oct-Dec;21(4):313-5

This one should interest you:
Risperidone, 2 mg/day vs. 4 mg/day, in first-episode, acutely psychotic patients: treatment efficacy and effects on fine motor functioning.
J Clin Psychiatry 2002 Oct;63(10):885-91
And this one even more:
Long-term safety and efficacy of risperidone for the treatment of disruptive behavior disorders in children with subaverage IQs.
Pediatrics 2002 Sep;110(3):e34
[Discusses side effects, dosages, etc in the children, the percentage of children who experienced the side effects you mentioned and the dosages of those particular children -- which was higher than 2mg per day]

Risperidone in the treatment of autistic Thai children under 4 years of age.
J Med Assoc Thai 2002 Aug;85 Suppl 2:S784-9


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*
Many of the others on Risperdal were on .5 to 1 mg, and they still developed the side effects.

.*
Now I really dont believe you. I have read countless articles and studies published in medical journals and the side effects you mentioned are less than 1% with 2mg daily dosages and at .5 they were non existent. NON EXISTENT. This means no patients had any movement or muscle problems at all.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by dolphinkisser_
*Greaseball...you had said that you said that you supervised 50 PEOPLE who had been prescribed respiridol as well as other 'anti-psychotic' I am kind of having a disconnect with your statement because from what i know, Respiridol is prescribed for children. None of the students i have known to be on respirodol have needed medicine to prevent Parkinson symptoms.
*
I believe children are started at .25mg per day and then gradually moved up if they are under a certain age, and then are started at .5mg a day past a certain age due to their metabolism. Even at 4mg per day I believe I read in one of the above articles that only 3% of the children on risperdal suffered any of the problems Greaseball mentioned, and it stated that the problems were not bad enough to discontinue use or take medication to help with the tremors. Our psychiatrist, who we trust and told us very scarey stories with his own patients that took certain other drugs, said he had never seen a child in his practice on risperdal have the muscular side effects under 4mg per day. My son is on 1mg per day and shows no mucular side effects at all. He has gained no weight on the drug and the only thing that I can deem as a side effect is more frequent urination (also increased drinking tho)


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I forgot to mention weight gain...all of the patients I observed gained weight. The lowest gain was 10 lbs, the highest was 60. This was all in one to three months.

OTF, I'm not going to look at your articles. I already don't believe anything you say. We'll just have to agree to disagree. In the future, you might want to PM me, since I doubt anyone else is interested in our sidetracked discussion.

My own personal experience was not a research project, it was a job I had for a few years. There is no "link" to that.

A good, doctor-authored website is www.breggin.com which also links to the journal, Ethical Human Sciences and Services.

Some interesting articles are: "The Benefits of Psychotherapy for Schizophrenia," "Fluvoxamine as a Cause of Stimulation, Mania and Aggression," "Conduct Disorder as an Adaptive Response to Situational Stress," "Schizophrenia: Medical Students Are Taught It's All in the Genes, But Are They Hearing the Whole Story?", "Are Newer Antipsychotics Better?", and "Brain Disease Hypothesis for Schizophrenia Disconfirmed by All Evidence."

The articles are written by psychiatrists and psychologists other than Breggin. The editorial board for the journal includes 35 clinical psychologists, 16 psychiatrists, and 4 doctors of education, all of whom are not funded by drug companies. If you're really interested I can PM the names.

One patient I knew suffered from an extreme form of polydipsia, excessive water intake. He would sometimes gain up to 10 lbs a day in water weight. He wet the bed a few times a night. We even had to take away his toilet because he was drinking out of it. He was on only 2 mg of Zyprexa. Luckily he was happy, though.


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## Bippity (Sep 12, 2003)

Leaza,

I just wanted to commend you for trusting your instincts and doing what you feel is best for your family & your particular circumstances.

My best friend whom I have known & loved & struggled with for the past 15 years is BPD, her mother was BPD and my dear, dear friend's 2 children - the boy (age 15) is ADHD and the girl (age 16) is BPD. I have been there for many struggles with them and I know what a struggle it is to put a child on medication and how much support you need and deserve to get - especially when you go out & actually ask for it.

I believe that we just have to do whatever it takes to do the best we can for our children - nothing is the end of the world except the end of the world & ummm... this is not it! I've learned that medication is not a fix when it comes to mental conditions. It's a roller coaster and eventually you get used to the bumpy ride. This med is working great now, so enjoy it! Give it some time & you might find that the medicine needs to be adjusted - hopefully to the lesser, but nobody I know of has a reliable crystal ball, so we just hope for the best & enjoy the present of now.

You can worry about side effects if you want to - you can choose to worry about anything you want, actually! Or you can choose to not worry at all and live in the moment and trust that you are smart enough & strong enough to figure out how to deal with the complications of life as they present themselves.

I can tell you that I've seen the difference some medications can make & I've seen some of the negative side effects, too and in the end it just comes down to you gotta do what you gotta do! All of life is an experiment.

Hugs!


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*I forgot to mention weight gain...all of the patients I observed gained weight. The lowest gain was 10 lbs, the highest was 60. This was all in one to three months.

OTF, I'm not going to look at your articles. I already don't believe anything you say. We'll just have to agree to disagree. In the future, you might want to PM me, since I doubt anyone else is interested in our sidetracked discussion.

*
You said to back up what I had to say and I provided you with medical and psychiatry journals. Recent ones. I really can see how unobjective you are by your statements. I am not going to PM you, there is no need to. You stated something that wasnt quite factual to a mother to scare her or for some other reason. I am not sure. You asked for proof of my statements, and I did so, yet you have nothing to back up yours. You dont have to believe me, the documents I provided back me up, while your story about risperdal and 50 patients on it having problems at such a low dose really isnt evidence based.

Yes weight gain can occur. But not always. In fact risperdal of all the antipsychotics has the lowest risk of weight gain. The reason weight gain often occurs in children on this medication is one of the side effects is thirst. Many parents are giving their kids drinks with sugar in it and feeding them poor diets. So far Dylan has not gained weight, but he is also fed a wholesome diet and drinks a lot of water. Exrecise is important too. We do not watch a lot of TV nor do my kids play video games, etc. So I think some of the weight gain on these drugs has to do with diet and sitting on the butt.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*I
A good, doctor-authored website is www.breggin.com which also links to the journal, Ethical Human Sciences and Services.

Some interesting articles are: "The Benefits of Psychotherapy for Schizophrenia," "Fluvoxamine as a Cause of Stimulation, Mania and Aggression," "Conduct Disorder as an Adaptive Response to Situational Stress," "Schizophrenia: Medical Students Are Taught It's All in the Genes, But Are They Hearing the Whole Story?", "Are Newer Antipsychotics Better?", and "Brain Disease Hypothesis for Schizophrenia Disconfirmed by All Evidence."

The articles are written by psychiatrists and psychologists other than Breggin. The editorial board for the journal includes 35 clinical psychologists, 16 psychiatrists, and 4 doctors of education, all of whom are not funded by drug companies. If you're really interested I can PM the names.

*
Yes I would be interested in reading the articles. I look forward to getting this info in my PM box.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

You stated something that wasnt quite factual to a mother to scare her or for some other reason. I am not sure.
You seem to have a lot of ideas about why I am here, none of which are true. I mentioned side effects to be on the watch for. I believe any competent physician tells the same thing to patients. I don't think you will be able to find where I said "Take your child off the drug" or "all drugs are bad for children." That is not what I said, nor is it what I believe.

If you don't believe other things I say, that's fine, but I'm sorry you think I come here just to tell lies. It's not like I don't have anything else to do with my time. It must be hard to live with the thought that people are coming here just to lie to you.

If you can provide websites to your articles, I will read them. Sorry if I'm just too lazy to go out and buy them, but I have enough mental health books and articles so if I buy new ones they really need to be something special. I provided you with a website to the journal I mentioned. I suppose you could look up the names of the editors yourself, but I can PM those to you. I don't think the journal articles themselves are online. If you were really interested, I could xerox some and mail them to you.

Again, I think our discussion, if it is going to continue, should take place by PM. Maybe we'll both find some interesting things to read we wouldn't have otherwise found.

And to the OP, sorry if you got the idea I was trying to scare you or tell you what to do.


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## dolphinkisser (Dec 26, 2003)

Hello again fellow mommies..i am starting to get a little uncomfortable with the direction that this thread is going. I did not mean for it to get into a debate of who HAS to be right. Although i find myself siding with OTF about side-effects. Greaseball you state that ALL the patients you observed showed side effects and that ALL of patients experiences weight gain and i start getting uncomfortable when things are put in absolutes because people are different and we can't all react the same. And i know for a fact Risperodol is an anti anxiety drug for children and i was told of the possible side effects of weight gain.
But can we drop this now? (pretty please...i am feeling tender right now). I am sharing an issue that has been difficult for me My whole purpose was to ask for gentle insights coming from a place of understanding, empathy and personal experience. ..whether with your own children or with people who are dear to you.








Thanks for all the support and encoraugement to those who took the time to post. Peace from Leaza


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

Greaseball you state that ALL the patients you observed showed side effects and that ALL of patients experiences weight gain and i start getting uncomfortable when things are put in absolutes because people are different and we can't all react the same.
That's right...everyone _I_ observed. I have not been working in mental health that long, and actually the past 3 years almost not at all. 50 patients is a fairly small sample. Just because it's what I saw doesn't mean it's what always will happen.

My observation would not make a dent in any kind of research, had I submitted this as research.

I hope our off-topic discussion hasn't ruined the thread for you; it's a good thread that a lot of people probably need.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Wow, first of all I just want to offer you







s and encouragement. It is a tough choice to put your child on any sort of medication. We considered putting dd on thyroid medicine (such a little thing compared to what you are going through) and couldn't do it. I am so slad you have dfound somehting that is working and that you were brave enough to take thaqt step. How wonderful it must be to finally have your dd healthy and functioning. What a blessing!!

Snadra

PS - since you are new, if you ever have a problem wh=ith the tone a thread or post takes you can contact a moderator (through private message or e-mail) and they can address it in a way that fits with board rules.


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## Moon Light Mama (Jun 9, 2003)

Dauphin Kisser,

Very sorry about your situation with your son. I have a similar one, and the pshyc has also talked about respirdal 2 years ago.

We tried paxil first, but that has the side effect of causing him to be more out of it. It also increases his urinating accidents than without. It was only given 3 months at a time because I wanted to see if it would help him get in a better place, then slowly reduced the amount til he was no longer taking it.

This time however, I am having lots of problems again and due to his age, and his size, I can no longer physically restrain him if he is violent. So we will perhaps go to a very low dose of risperdal.

All I know is that I want my family to be happy, and don't want my son to put the other children at risk of learning his behaviour, and experiencing the profound stress that our family has been experiencing.

I recommend that you visit attach-china.org for alot of great information. This website is about attachment disorder, oppositional disorder and post traumatic disorder.

Good luck, and the best to your family and their health.
Moon Light Mama

edited to correct website address!


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Moon Light Mama_
*This time however, I am having lots of problems again and due to his age, and his size, I can no longer physically restrain him if he is violent. So we will perhaps go to a very low dose of risperdal.

All I know is that I want my family to be happy, and don't want my son to put the other children at risk of learning his behaviour, and experiencing the profound stress that our family has been experiencing.

Good luck, and the best to your family and their health.
Moon Light Mama

edited to correct website address!







*
My son is 3 and already hard to restrain. I can totally relate to what you are saying Moon Light Mama. My youngest has already picked up on older brothers behaviors.







It is very stressful to have a child like this and takes it tole emotionally, socially, and on marriages.
For us the decision to use medication was HUGE. But the pros were much greater than the risks. We also knew that if our child had something like diabetes or something else that required daily medication we would do it hand down. Why not for mental or behavioral issues?
This weekend has been rough. :::sigh::: Sometimes it appears the risperdal is working, and other times not as well. Over all we have seen definitive change and the rages, etc are not as bad or as long. At least I am not spending hours a day restraining him and he has been acting like a "normal" three year old. My son is on 1mg per day of risperdal, we are adding another .25 to his first morning dose since mornings are still "rough". This will be my second attempt to adding this dosage in the morning.
I think Dylan thinks I am strange because I have him say this funny sentences over and over again to make sure he is not slurring his speech and now I have him hold sticks and silver ware out and try to balance them to see if he has having tremors. Nothing so far.









Kim


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## dolphinkisser (Dec 26, 2003)

Wow..it is good to know that i am not alone. DD is 10 and when she gets into her violent episodes , i have to get my 16 yr ds to get her off me. He has been wonderful during this whole thing but i don't know what will happen when he goes to college in less than 2 years.
DD has not had ANY violent episodes ( so far) since she has been on respirodol and it has been so much more peaceful. Her psychiatrist asked if i wanted to increase the dosage and i said no ( not yet anyway) because the 1 mg was doing the desired effect.
I hear where you are coming from about losing friendships as i have lost some friends because they claim that my daughter's 'bad behavior ' was rubbing off on their children. I guess dd is a good barometer of who is a true and sincere friend nevertheless it hurts to be judged in that way.
Three years ago , i was asked to lead a brownie troop and then all of a sudden i was written a letter stating that i was not a good candidate for a brownie leader because the woman in charge of our area council ( and did not even know me) told the district counsel that i was not able to control my daughter so how would i be a good leader. I know it was all for the best because it would have been too much for me but i had to go through a long healing process.
I am a 4H leader now and i have had the same problem with some parents suddenly pulling their kids out of 4H criticizing me for my daughters behavior. The good news is that although my 4H club is small the parents who are still with me are sympathetic , understanding and very helpful. We have had some wonderful meetings lately because dd has been calm and also because parents who have stuck by are the ones who are the most helpful. Again, dd seemed to be a barometer in regards to 'weeding out' judgemental uncompassionate people in my life ( i am not sure if that is the right phrase...i don't mean to be offensive)







. As i see it, dd has taught me a lot of life lessons and there must be a purpose to what i am going through. Thanks for being there...







. Peace from Leaza.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Leaza,

I also think there is a purpose in my life with parenting a child like this. Not sure what that is yet.









So far today has been a good day. One child though is at Grandmas. Just have the younger too. Our preschool is out for holiday, and my husband has class tonight, so we will see how our days go. Plus now it raining. No outside time!


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

_Please respect the wishes of the OP when responding to this post. If any edits are desired, please PM me. I appreciate your keeping the tone of this thread respectful._


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## dolphinkisser (Dec 26, 2003)

Thanks







. I am not sure that we need to edit any of the posts. I was just a little taken aback by the tone of a few posts.







: From what i read at other threads there was a spirit of understanding empathy and comraderie and i was hoping that there could be that same kind of spirit and sense of comraderie with other mommas who are going through the same thing. Hope we can keep that going.
Peace Leaza.


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## Shenjall (Sep 14, 2002)

Hi Leaza!
My 10 yr old ds has been taking risperidone for about a month now. When he was first prescribed I came here and did a search and came across this thread. It was very comforting and encouraging. Thank you!
So far he is doing very well. No side effects at all.
How are you and your dd doing?


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Leaza









It seems to me like your children have a very loving, very thoughtful mama, who is taking the best care of them that she can. Nobody wants to have to use these kinds of medications for their children, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do. I'm glad to hear that your dd is doing so much better on the medication. Hopefully at some point in the future, she won't need it, but right now she does.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I'm editting out my whole post because I hadn't realized how old this thread is and no doubt my .02 cents is irrelevent by now.

Duh. I feel stupid!

Anyway, how are you?? How is your dd?


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

P.S.

I also wanted to say that I'm so sorry about the brownie troup garbage you were subjected to. It makes my blood boil just hearing about it. You so clearly deserve much better, and just wish that those other moms realized that the extra challenges you've faced with your own children make you even *more* qualified to care for other children. You are facing such hard things and you must have learned so much patience and empathy through this experience.


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## dolphinkisser (Dec 26, 2003)

Hi...i was surprised to see my post revisited. Sorry i haven't responded for a while ...i was away visiting my family and this week i have been busy setting up my classroom. Thanks so much for the support and encouragement dear mamas and thanks for asking about dd.
I wish you all the best Shenjall with your ds as i know what tumultuous feelings you must have been going through before you put ds on medication.
DD is not on medication this school year. I want to see how she gets along...new year, new teacher. I also don't recall any side effects with dd when she was on respirodol. I am not sure how effective it was. I saw her try hard to keep her anger under control but i think she is trying hard now without the respiridol.
The reason why i chickened out and stopped giving her respiridol was because the psychiatrist and her counselors at the intensive day treatment program she was in where so quick to push this. The psychiatrist prescribed .5 mg without seeing her and then the next week asked how she was doing and i said that i didn't know because it had only been a week and so she concluded that she needed to have a higher does and upped it to 1 mg. I kept her on .5 mg and it seemed to have taken the edge off.
During the summer i stopped totally and i really think she is learning to deal with her issues herself. DD will always have challenges with anger management but she is doing what she can to compensate. For example , one week we were at a conference and the wall were paper thin and there were other families in the next rooms trying to sleep and then at midnight she started demanding that she wanted something to eat. All the stores were closed the cafeteria was closed so i told her that there was no way that i can get anything now that she can wait until morning. Well..she started caterwalling and screaming and i tried to ask her to be respectful of the people who were next door but she just did not care she wanted what she wanted and she wanted it now. I asked her please stop ,but she went on for half an hour i just started crying. Well, all of a sudden she snaps out of it and cuddled to me. Before she fell asleep she asked me " Mom, do you think i have a mental health problem.' I asked her why she would ask something like that. She answered " When i get mad , i just can't seem to control myself' I told her it is something we will continue to work on. Despite my embarassment , i was so encouraged that dd saw this behavior as inappropriate and knew that she had to change it.
She ended up on honor roll at the end of the year surprisingly enough and i wanted to maake a big deal out of it so she remembers what she is capable of. She had been wanting a ferret for 2 years so i caved. She already has quite a menagerie but she is so good at taking care of them. For some reason, animals bring out the best in her. She tends to like animals more than people







.
I am hoping that everyone's dc's havea successful and warm fuzzy year in school. Thanks again for your support. If there is anyway i can help you all let me know


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