# Ferber and AP compatible??????



## PaxMamma (Jul 22, 2005)

a woman at my church, who is a counselor, asked me how i was feeling and i said, tired, but good. she asked if the baby was sleeping, and i said no, up A LOT. she asked if i wd. consider CIO. i said, no, i've read ferber and we do AP, so CIO is on the opposite end of the philosophical spectrum. she said, well, no, not really, not if you think about it. she told me she did her thesis work in attachment theory and she'd like to talk about it more w/me, but the two do work together. she also said if you don't get a good nite's sleep, it will affect your attachment during the day (which i have experienced) and that all of the 100s of things you do as a parent affect your attachment, not just one thing like CIO.

i'm totally stupid b/c of 3 years of sleep deprivation, so not sure what she's getting at, but am trying to prepare for the follow-up conversation that is inevitable. anyone?


----------



## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

In a word: No.

I do not believe that CIO and AP are compatible. The Ferber brand of CIO (leave them alone to cry to sleep) desensitizes a parent to their baby's crying. It's a defense mechanism on the parent's part. You have to tune it out or you end up going and picking up your baby (which, according to the theory, puts you back at square one).

There are books like Nighttime Parenting and The No Cry Sleep Solution that offer advice on improving sleep for all members of the family without CIO.


----------



## KrystalC (Aug 1, 2006)

While I agree that CIO isn't solely responsible for the vast amounts of insecurely attached babies, attachment theory in and of itself specifically indicates that babies must feel that their needs are being responded to _consistently_ in order to develop a secure attachment to the primary caregiver(s). This includes not being left to cry simply because mom and/or dad feel they need the extra sleep.

Furthermore, I believe CIO encourages parents to act against their instincts to respond to their child's needs... distancing the parent from the child and forming an insecure attachment in BOTH parties. Parents need to be just as attached to their children as the children need to be to them in order for the family unit to be healthy.

If you'd like to see some references aside from Dr. Sears, try researching Dr. Jonathan Bowlby who did a LOT of research involving attachment theory and Dr. Karen Horney, whose theory of personality involves the concepts of basic evil, basic anxiety, and basic hostility - all of which are a result of early parenting.


----------



## lotusmamma (Jan 1, 2007)

I don't let my husband cry-it-out. If he is upset I am responsive and let him know that I care. If I am crying he hugs me and listens to me - he doesn't walk out of the room at increasingly longer intervals and get me to self soothe while he goes to another room. My husband also isn't expected to sleep in a room on his own and neither am I. I think we are more attached because of these practices. I don't expect more from a baby than a grown person.

I can't see how parenting in a responsive way part-time, only during the day, improves attachment. I also don't see how a church counseller is qualified to be dealing out parenting advice. It sounds like she is familiar with CIO and biased towards this practice but that she doesn't really understand AP. Perhaps you can educate her.

I had a similar experience when a school teacher tried to tell me I should get my 4yo out of my bed so I could get more rest. We were in the middle of a familiy crisis. The last thing I and my daughter needed at a time like that was for me to force her out of the comfort of the family bed and it would have resulted in less sleep for all of us, not more.

Surely the most logical answer to tiredness is finding ways to get more sleep - support from others is the way I deal with that issue rather than expecting my baby to miss out on something. My dh is great about helping me get more rest e.g. I have a nap if I need it when he gets home from work in the evening and we take turns on the weekends sleeping in.

He is so considerate to me because we are so attached. We bonded years ago and it's the key to our great relationship of 15 years which is still going strong.

Sam in Sydney


----------



## granolalight (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusmamma* 
I also don't see how a church counseller is qualified to be dealing out parenting advice. It sounds like she is familiar with CIO and biased towards this practice but that she doesn't really understand AP. Perhaps you can educate her.

OP said that the counselor did her thesis in attachment theory. She probably did research the topic and knows some things. I'm not saying I agree with CIO, but it could be an interesting conversation.


----------



## mommystinch (May 18, 2004)

I don't think CIO can be a part of Attachment parenting. While there is no set list of things one must do to attachement parent, the biggest part of it is responding to your child's needs. Leaving them alone to cry is not responding to their needs at all


----------



## CelticMomma (Feb 3, 2006)

You could always point out that Ferber himself has recanted his initial position on CIO, and has stated that people have misused his methods to the detriment of many children. I've read the new version of his book, and while there are many parts that I don't agree with, there are some valid insights.

I would think if you spoke strongly and affirmatively "Yes, I'm tired, but this is the path I've chosen after a lot of research and soul searching, so thanks for your input, but it won't work for my family." she should get the hint and back off.

Does she have kids? Can you turn the tables on her at all? "Did you know that giving your kids that formula can damage their gut for life? And, increase their risk of many diseases?" or something more personal to her.


----------



## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

IMO? No, CIO and AP are complete oposite ends of the spectrum. I would, however, like to hear her thoughts on how it could possibly be compatable.


----------



## PaxMamma (Jul 22, 2005)

i guess i was just wondering if anyone knew enough about "attachment theory" to help out in an intelligent conversation w/a person who has a master's in it. i don't believe in CIO, and i also don't believe i have to defend my parenting practices to another person.

to answer some ?s, yes, she has two children, older, like 5 and 7. their 5 yr old was adopted and they determined she had attachment disorder, so they co-slept, but then did ferber later on. perhaps the attmnt dis. drove her into the theory for her thesis, i don't know.

and i didn't mean to say that she is the church counselor. she is a counselor who happens to attend my church. and i have found that she is an extremely empathetic person, not at all trying to force her views on me. i think she truly feels bad for me.


----------



## rebelbets (Jun 6, 2005)

I think - yes, you can practice CIO and still be attached to your child (and your child to you). But does CIO work with the Attachment Parenting philosophy? No. It's a matter of semantics, IMO - the "school of AP" vs. general attachment theory.


----------



## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

I think you need to read Ferber, read Sears, and read some simply attachment theory books (yeah, in your spare time







)

Ferber has some decent suggestions in there (not CIO), and maybe his professional opinion on a case by case basis could be compatible with AP (I'd like to think a professional would slap you around for suggesting CIO for one waking a night). BUT the way it is used in the real world is so far from compatible that it's laughable to imply they could work together.

She has a point that a perfectly rested parent is more fun and has more patience than a tired one. But what she is missing is that using CIO to stop a child disturbing you 2 or 3 or 4 times a night is like using a sledgehammer to open a bottle of wine.

If you were literally dying of lack of sleep, if your child was dying from lack of sleep, if you were depressed and detached because of it and on the verge of abuse, and NO OTHER GENTLE TECHNIQUES WERE WORKING, and there was no-one who could spell you at night then maybe CIO could be considered.

Most families aren't in that state. Sometimes I feel like I'm dying, but I'm fine to cuddle and stare blankly at Curious George. Don't ask me to do calculus, but I can tickle you and tell you I love you. I might swear under my breath, but when she cries out for me in the night I reach for her. Good attachment, as someone mentioned, is based on the child needing attention, and you responding. Over and over and over again. CIO is the opposite of that.

Most people don't try anything else but CIO. It's like the "should sleep through" timer goes off and they close and lock the bedroom door. Many people persist with some length of CIO every night, not just for 2 or 3. Many people do CIO during separation anxiety phases (despite explicit advice from Ferber not to). Many people do it with young babies.

IMO if everyone was more realistic about what's normal, less selfish about what they want, and more educated about gentle ways to encourage longer deeper sleep, then CIO would be far less common.

Um, where was I before I got into that rant? Oh, attachment theory

Quote:

When a human or non-human primate infant is separated from its parent, the infant goes through a series of three stages of emotional reactions. First is protest, in which the infant cries and refuses to be consoled by others. Second is despair, in which the infant is sad and passive. Third is detachment, in which the infant actively disregards and avoids the parent if the parent returns (Hazan & Shaver, 1987).

The fundamental assumption in attachment research on human infants is that sensitive responding by the parent to the infant's needs results in an infant who demonstrates secure attachment, while lack of such sensitive responding results in insecure attachment (Lamb, Thompson, Gardner, Charnov, & Estes, 1984).
Sorry, this is really garbled, I'm tired.


----------



## KrystalC (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dkeoshian* 
i guess i was just wondering if anyone knew enough about "attachment theory" to help out in an intelligent conversation w/a person who has a master's in it. i don't believe in CIO, and i also don't believe i have to defend my parenting practices to another person.

to answer some ?s, yes, she has two children, older, like 5 and 7. their 5 yr old was adopted and they determined she had attachment disorder, so they co-slept, but then did ferber later on. perhaps the attmnt dis. drove her into the theory for her thesis, i don't know.

and i didn't mean to say that she is the church counselor. she is a counselor who happens to attend my church. and i have found that she is an extremely empathetic person, not at all trying to force her views on me. i think she truly feels bad for me.

I actually know a bit about attachment theory in general and as I said before, it involves consistently responding to the child's needs. CIO is the direct opposite of this. The child's needs are simply not being met on a consistent basis using this practice. There are simply much better methods than using CIO to help children sleep through the night. HELP not FORCE would be the key word here.


----------



## clavicula (Apr 10, 2005)

CIO is not AP, i agree.


----------



## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Did anyone see the Time or Newsweek article where Ferber said he takes back what he said about the importance of the baby sleeping independently and whatever works for each family is fine?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12893485...week/GT1/8199/


----------



## Erinok (Sep 11, 2006)

I would definetely hear her out, it may be interesting. besides, just like the tons of other advise, you are welcome to take it or not.


----------



## October16Mom (Jul 10, 2006)

Who said you have to CIO to get a child to sleep through the night? Read _The No Cry Sleep Solution_. I know plenty of parents who didn't CIO whose babies slept through the night.


----------



## saraann (Dec 1, 2006)

Here's a link to some basic info on attachement theory.
http://www.personalityresearch.org/attachment.html

and then some info in cry it out:
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/10/handout2.asp

She sounds well meaning. Don't let her degree intimidate you. I'd listen to what she has to say, mainly becuase I'd be curious to see what her persepective is. I would never do cry it out, not only does research show that it an cause harm, it just feels wrong.


----------



## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

I don't have a masters in attachment theory but obviously attachment is more than just "attachment during the day." I guess she's so self-centered that if SHE'S asleep at night, then nighttime is not an important time for ANYONE, including the child? That doesn't make sense. I don't get why so many people try to convince you that you "should" be well-rested when you have babies and young children. I thought interupted sleep was part of the whole parenting package. Oh well.


----------



## jennybean0722 (Jun 19, 2006)

Do you think this woman is maybe talking about crying in arms? That may be what she will talk to you about. Hopefully she won't be as drastic as CIO alone.


----------



## Shaki (Mar 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *saraann* 
She sounds well meaning. Don't let her degree intimidate you. I'd listen to what she has to say, mainly becuase I'd be curious to see what her persepective is.

I agree with not letting her degree intimidate you. But I'm going to go against the grain here and say why do you even need to discuss this further with her? I don't think you're under any obligation to have an "Intelligent conversation" with this woman about this. I mean what's the point? I wouldn't bother. But that's just me...


----------



## PaxMamma (Jul 22, 2005)

thanks, just to be clear-i can not be convinced that CIO is okay. i was just wondering if there was something in "attachment theory" that was different than AP. it's a very small church, so i will see her again, and am sure this will come up. but she's very respectful and i don't feel intimidated. i just wanted to gather some info to be able to speak about it. i've read ferber and sears, NCSS, etc., but not much on "theory". thanks for the links. i will go check it out.


----------



## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

It is better than taking anti-depressants because you can't handle life anymore due to sleep dep.


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Demeter9* 
It is better than taking anti-depressants because you can't handle life anymore due to sleep dep.

But it's not an either/or...cio or be completely sleep deprived. Even on this thread the posters have shared books that offer alternatives to that false choice.


----------



## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Demeter9* 
It is better than taking anti-depressants because you can't handle life anymore due to sleep dep.

There's nothing wrong with anti-depressants if you need them. Taking care of your health by taking needed medication is better than leaving a child to scream to sleep.


----------



## mamaboobaAES (Jan 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *saraann* 
Here's a link to some basic info on attachement theory.
http://www.personalityresearch.org/attachment.html

and then some info in cry it out:
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/10/handout2.asp

She sounds well meaning. Don't let her degree intimidate you. I'd listen to what she has to say, mainly becuase I'd be curious to see what her persepective is. I would never do cry it out, not only does research show that it an cause harm, it just feels wrong.

Don't let a degree in much of anything intimidate you (this goes to anyone). While I respect research and knowledge it is often necessary to understand that research can be biased by assumptions and the researcher's goals.

People are not as honest as you would hope.

You need to do everything you can to create a feeling of security in your child. If that means you sleep in extra late just to get a few more sleep cycles in then so be it. I know about sleep interruptions but leaving your child alone at night against their will is just wrong.


----------



## wombatclay (Sep 4, 2005)

Like a pp I wonder if she meant a sort of crying in arms?

I'm thinking of the Dr. Gordon night weaning/sleep more plan where you gradually move from nursing to sleep to soothing to sleep (most AP mamas go a little slower than his suggested timeline, but he does support co-sleeping during this process. He also suggests ways to modify this process for weaning a child from the family bed to a solo bed scenario). His point is that in a securly attached child over the age of one the child might be angry and upset about the change in routine, but it shouldn't affect the attachment between parent and child since there is a firm foundation of love and trust.

So maybe this is the sort of angle her research led her to? The idea that not all crying is "bad", especially in a securely attached child (though that is still a looooong way from CIO)? I sort of wonder since part of Gordon's plan is that you explain to the child that you (the parent) need more sleep in order to be a better parent during the day and do more fun/interesting things...and then follow through on the "better parent" promise as you both get more sleep. It sounds sort of like what this woman was talking about in the initial conversation.

I'd be interested to hear what she has to say though!


----------



## PaxMamma (Jul 22, 2005)

i definitely think she meant CIO, not in-arms, as i mentioned ferber to her, that i had actually read it and that i completely disagreed w/his research, and he has now come out w/an "OOPS" position.

she did keep mentioning something like "imagery" or "visualization", not the word she used, but some sort of scientific word about how the child is old enough to hold an image of his mother in his mind and that physical separation is not so stressful as they can recall the picture of mom.


----------



## wombatclay (Sep 4, 2005)

Funky!

I can certainly see that object permanence could play a role in helping a child sleep through (or sleep more) in a solo setting, but I don't see how an enduring mental picture would lessen the emotional/physical impact of an "old school Ferber" style CIO routine. I mean, obviously, if the babe has a happy mental picture and is fine with only that then there wouldn't be any crying (since the mental image would be enough to soothe them). And if they are crying themselves sick behind a closed door then clearly the mental image isn't enough.

Maybe she really is addressing some of Ferber's other ideas...his CIO program (as he has stressed publically now) isn't at the heart of his sleep theory, it was just one option that people really ran with. (Not that I'm excusing him btw, he could have come out publically and vocally looong before now if this misuse of his research really was breaking his heart)

I think it's Brazelton who has a sleep theory sort of like this...some crying is okay once the child is old enough to understand object permanence and the fact that parents exist even when not in view?

Then again, how old does a child have to be before they understand relative time? You might ask if her research has suggested an age at which most children can grasp a 6 or 8 hour period of time in a meaningful way.

But still...it seems to me that if a mental image was enough, you wouldn't need traditional CIO. And if you did need timed crying to "teach" your child to sleep then clearly the mental image either isn't there or isn't enough!


----------



## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Quote:

But it's not an either/or...cio or be completely sleep deprived.
I unfortunately tried CIO/Ferber a long time ago. It was unsuccessful, and I quickly abandoned my attempts. I was a lot more sleep-deprived during that 2-3 day period than I ever have been nursing my child throughout the night.

I don't think Ferberizing, in the way most people use it, is compatible with AP. Be it 5 minutes or 30 minutes, your child doesn't know the differences and is still negatively effected. Minimizing the amount of unnecessary crying a child does is part of AP, and Ferber doesn't fit into that.


----------



## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

I don't think it is the best thing. I don't think you can determine how bad sleep dep might be for a mother. If she's a much worse mother for the wear, and CIO works for that child.....You may not like it, but it is probably better than using a medication you may not need otherwise. It is also probably better than spirialing down when meds won't work for you.

CIO vs. Parental Abuse due to Severe Sleep Dep. You think sleep dep won't make some people aggressive? You think that a mother with undiagnosed sleep apnea and a wakeful baby may not be a potential for great diaster than sleep training?

I don't do sleep training. I have had PPD. Twice. Meds don't work for me. My PPD is made MUCH worse by sleep dep. I may have tolerated it, but I guarantee that my children did pay a price for it in other ways.


----------



## mamaboobaAES (Jan 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Demeter9* 
It is better than taking anti-depressants because you can't handle life anymore due to sleep dep.

I commend your willingness to speak your mind. I do not agree with CIO and I hope people consider the risks of any medication before taking it.

www.chaada.org

www.ssristories.com

www.drugawareness.org

www.breggin.com

www.paxilprogress.org


----------



## mamaboobaAES (Jan 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Demeter9* 
I don't think it is the best thing. I don't think you can determine how bad sleep dep might be for a mother. If she's a much worse mother for the wear, and CIO works for that child.....You may not like it, but it is probably better than using a medication you may not need otherwise. It is also probably better than spirialing down when meds won't work for you.

CIO vs. Parental Abuse due to Severe Sleep Dep. You think sleep dep won't make some people aggressive? You think that a mother with undiagnosed sleep apnea and a wakeful baby may not be a potential for great diaster than sleep training?

I don't do sleep training. I have had PPD. Twice. Meds don't work for me. My PPD is made MUCH worse by sleep dep. I may have tolerated it, but I guarantee that my children did pay a price for it in other ways.


Sleep deprivation is scary. When my first son was born I did not sleep for 10 days. After the third day on antidepressants (started on day 6) I had a hallucination of me throwing baby down the stairs. This led to formula feeding at night. At 6 weeks I tried cosleeping & stopped formula feeding altoghether. At 3 months I realized that it was the antidepressants making me psychotic. I weaned off the drugs and have never gone back.

Cosleeping + night nursing + avoiding harmful influences & medications = happy family here in our house.

I haven't read this whole thread so I don't understand fully why one person is saying CIO is a necessary alternative to medication. Medication (SSRIs in particular) doesn't help you sleep well - it actually causes REM Sleep Deprivation. And CIO isn't really necessary when you can cosleep.


----------



## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Just a reminder that we do not endorce CIO on this board, under any circumstances. Clearly there are many factors involved in nighttime parenting, and parents have different struggles and different resources available to them, but we do believe that CIO is always wrong.

Being sleep-deprived can affect daytime parenting, as well. I used to hire the 9 year old boy across the street to play with Rain for a couple of hours while I dozed in the bedroom, and it really made a difference (and being 9, he worked pretty cheap, especially because we had good toys). Brain storming ways to combat the effects sleep deprivation can have on daytime parenting would be a useful thread...

Also, discussions about the potential value or potential harmfulness of antidepressants are outside the scope of this forum, but would be appropriate to discuss in Health and Healing.

Thanks,

Dar


----------



## mamaboobaAES (Jan 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shaki* 
I agree with not letting her degree intimidate you. But I'm going to go against the grain here and say why do you even need to discuss this further with her? I don't think you're under any obligation to have an "Intelligent conversation" with this woman about this. I mean what's the point? I wouldn't bother. But that's just me...

I agree. Sometimes conversations like that can just be destructive. But if you want to, go for it. Lord knows I have done that more than once! LOL


----------



## mamaboobaAES (Jan 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dkeoshian* 
i definitely think she meant CIO, not in-arms, as i mentioned ferber to her, that i had actually read it and that i completely disagreed w/his research, and he has now come out w/an "OOPS" position.

she did keep mentioning something like "imagery" or "visualization", not the word she used, but some sort of scientific word about how the child is old enough to hold an image of his mother in his mind and that physical separation is not so stressful as they can recall the picture of mom.


That is interesting... much different idea from starting with a baby too young to understand where mommy is and when she is coming back. But obviously her notion of CIO - if the child is crying - he is not visualizing a soothing mommy if anything he is visualizing mommy leaving the room and shutting the door. If he is visualizing a soothing mommy - he is visualizing it and wanting it to become a reality, not thinking about how much he loves his mommy.

In my opinion anyone who would put that sort of twisted logic on a justification for CIO is going to have a very confused and twisted child who will be depressed or anxious or repeat the abuse on the next generation.

Subconsious psychopathology waiting to reemerge at the worst possible time.


----------



## mamaboobaAES (Jan 16, 2006)

I just wanted to add that some moms take naps in the child's room (like if they have older children) if it is child proofed, they can lay down in front of the door so the kid cannot get out, but can play.

And I know that craniosacral therapy / chiropractic and avoiding caffeine as well as meditation and relaxation can help with insomnia.


----------



## MysteryMama (Aug 11, 2006)

I know what it's like to be so sleep deprived that you are a danger to your child. And I don't mean intentional abuse... I would literally fall asleep in the middle of the night (after being up the millionth time or having been up with him for hours) while trying to rock him and drop him in the floor! Aside from that, I was starting to crack up. In the end, I just had to let him cry in the bed next to me while I would lay there and pat him and shush him in between falling asleep. When his cries got more frantic and loud, I'd rouse and pat and shush, but I was so tired I would drop off to sleep often before he was completely done crying. He knew I was right there, and there was a nightlight. It wasn't ideal, but at the time it was the best I could do. He was thourougly nursed, he was dry, he just didn't want to sleep at night and he and I were both suffering during the day and I wasn't able to cope at night. I don't believe in CIO. I don't believe in leaving your baby in a dark room all alone to cry themself to sleep. But sometimes, as a parent, you have to do what you have to do, even if it's not ideally how you'd like to do things. It takes a village to raise a child... but not everyone has a village.


----------



## Aeress (Jan 25, 2005)

It just sounds like this women may be trying to bait you. I don't know. I just seems like she has an agenda. Sure, we all have opinions but I don't try and forcibly tell people I have a degree in such and such so I know better than you.

I am sure she has the best intentions but something seems off...


----------



## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

I don't advocate CIO. Quite the opposite. Not everyone will go for co-sleeping. Frankly, not everyone SHOULD co-sleep.

I may have toughed it out - but I don't have judgement about those who find that they've surpassed their limit. It may make me sad, but I understand why very very well. If Mommy doesn't think she can do it, perhaps you should take her word for it. Sometimes it isn't for lack of support for all-night parenting is too ardous. Assuming that someone is LAZY because they are about to crack is....horrendous.

Maybe you have the personality to be able to handle it. Maybe you aren't prone to be grumpy. Maybe you have a better sleep profile. Maybe you don't have other health or sleep issues.

Maybe not keeping it together isn't due to being weak - if being awoken every 45 minutes is considered a form of torture, why do you think that my having a uterus should somehow make me immune to it? That XX chromosones should make women capable to suppressing the basic need to sleep in order to function...it isn't a CHOICE.

You may not be aware that if you aren't sleeping enough, you may be taking micro-naps during the day. You may not even be aware you are doing it. You think that makes for a good Mommy? What if you do while DRIVING?

You have one set of priorities. A woman who decides she'd prefer not to be dangerously incapable or dangerously mentally unstable during the day isn't necessarily some uninformed boob.


----------



## Spring Lily (Sep 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dkeoshian* 
i definitely think she meant CIO, not in-arms, as i mentioned ferber to her, that i had actually read it and that i completely disagreed w/his research, and he has now come out w/an "OOPS" position.

she did keep mentioning something like "imagery" or "visualization", not the word she used, but some sort of scientific word about how the child is old enough to hold an image of his mother in his mind and that physical separation is not so stressful as they can recall the picture of mom.

I'm no expert in attachment theory, but I do have a comparable degree to this woman. What you're talking about here sounds like object permanence. Which is interesting, because that is a fairly controversial theory. It's something Piaget had come up with based on observing his own children, but since then many professionals have disagreed with it. I don't agree with it, either--for example, my baby has always known I exist when I'm not in the room! I've always been able to tell by her cry when she is just calling out for me vs. when she's really upset.

As others have said, attachment theory in any form (AP or not) is all about consistently responding to your child's needs. CIO is tuning out (to some extent) your child crying for you. While CIO doesn't necessarily mean you & the baby aren't attached, that approach is still at odds with APing.

The part that really interests me is that your friend adopted a child with an attachment disorder, and later did CIO!! I can't help but wonder whether she has rationalized CIO as compatible with APing to ease her own feelings about her choice. Here are some words for her: cognitive dissonance.







That's basically when you hold two opposing beliefs at the same time. (sorry, couldn't resist, that's a little snarky of me.)


----------



## PaxMamma (Jul 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Demeter9* 
I don't advocate CIO. Quite the opposite. Not everyone will go for co-sleeping. Frankly, not everyone SHOULD co-sleep.

I may have toughed it out - but I don't have judgement about those who find that they've surpassed their limit. It may make me sad, but I understand why very very well. If Mommy doesn't think she can do it, perhaps you should take her word for it. Sometimes it isn't for lack of support for all-night parenting is too ardous. Assuming that someone is LAZY because they are about to crack is....horrendous.

Maybe you have the personality to be able to handle it. Maybe you aren't prone to be grumpy. Maybe you have a better sleep profile. Maybe you don't have other health or sleep issues.

Maybe not keeping it together isn't due to being weak - if being awoken every 45 minutes is considered a form of torture, why do you think that my having a uterus should somehow make me immune to it? That XX chromosones should make women capable to suppressing the basic need to sleep in order to function...it isn't a CHOICE.

You may not be aware that if you aren't sleeping enough, you may be taking micro-naps during the day. You may not even be aware you are doing it. You think that makes for a good Mommy? What if you do while DRIVING?

You have one set of priorities. A woman who decides she'd prefer not to be dangerously incapable or dangerously mentally unstable during the day isn't necessarily some uninformed boob.











well said. i do get sick of hearing people talk about sleep as though it were some luxury that we're all pining after, not an essential human need. if i told people i were depriving myself of food b/c my baby wouldn't let me eat, i'd be treated like a lunatic. air, food, sleep - all requirements to sustain life.


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

This is from one of my very favorite books (and also the FBNP Forum Guidelines)...it has sustained and nurtured me through many rough patches and three infants/night-waking toddlers









Quote:

Once we become parents it is easy to blame ourselves when our children's behavior seems out of control. The pervasive idea that we should be able to control sleep habits leads us too quickly to call night waking a "sleep disorder" and to wonder what we are doing wrong to cause it. Research gives no indication that anything parents do causes night waking. Babies whose cries are responded to rapidly are not more prone to it. Assuming that there is some method out there to treat sleep "disorders" undermines a parent's confidence. Despite the notion that "healthy, normal" babies sleep through the night, surveys of parents show that most babies do not sleep through the night, at least until all their teeth are in.

While waiting for our children to develop physically and emotionally to the point where they can realistically soothe themsleves to sleep, we need to work on our own development toward tolerance, patience, and acceptance of those aspects of parenting that are beyond our control. What remains in our control is the ability to continue to care for our children even though they are keeping us awake at night; to continue to hold to our own integrity as feeling people.

_*To embrace a philosophy that takes into account the individual needs of each child is not to ignore the unfortunate reality that we need sleep. We need to nurture ourselves in this process of raising children. The key to tolerance, and the natural passge through the nightwaking years, is to observe, accept, and work with your child's own inner rhythms and timetables, which can lead to the understanding that nurturing your child and nurturing yourself are not mutually exclusive enterprises.*_

'Natural Family Living' by Peggy O'Mara


----------



## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Demeter9* 
Sometimes it isn't for lack of support for all-night parenting is too ardous.

Oh but it is about a lack of support! Whether or not the support you need is at night or during the day is irrelevant. The problem is that we live in single family societies where we often don't have, or don't want, the help and support of our extended family.

When you are a mother alone ALL DAY LONG with baby and only live with ONE provider, it's a recipe for a night-time parenting disaster. Who gets up with the baby? The mother who doesn't get a break all day long? Or the only person who is providing for the family? Whose needs are more important? The person who earns the bread, or the person who cares for the baby? It is for this reason that I see no alternatives to co-sleeping! The only people who should not co-sleep are those who are morbidly obese, those who are alcoholics, or those who are drug attics. Everyone would benefit from, adults and babies.

I understand that situation all to well. My family lives on the other side of this Continent. I'm lucky if I see them every couple of months. I don't have anyone to come over and watch the baby while I take a nap or a shower. I don't have the luxury of being up all night while knowing I can call for help during the day.

At times I honestly wonder why there is this day time/night time segregation. Parenting is parenting, it doesn't matter what position the sun is in! If we lived in a society that utilized all generations there would not be this tremendous pressure on a mother to do everything. Not many other cultures expect a woman to bear children, raise them, take care of a home, cook, clean, provide support her husband, etc ALL BY HERSELF. There are grandmothers and aunts and cousins, and siblings, all sometimes under the same roof, to evenly distribute the demands of being a woman. That doesn't happen in North America.

So yes, it IS about a lack of support. In our house not many people can fill in for mommy at night time, but during the day I can make up for the lack of sleep with the right support with CIO.


----------



## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

Maybe. But obviously given a choice, I imagine you aren't going to be volunteering to move your MIL in for help.


----------



## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Demeter9* 
Maybe. But obviously given a choice, I imagine you aren't going to be volunteering to move your MIL in for help.

If it were feasible within our society, you bet I would! Unfortunately for our society we are living separate lives that do not make communal living realistic. And like I mentioned above, that is part of why parenting in this culture is so difficult.


----------

