# 'Gatekeeping' mothers



## Tuckoo (Jul 11, 2009)

Hi,

I just stumbled upon this term in a newspaper article. It's new to me, but I'm sure many of you have read about it before. It refers to mothers that take control over certain aspects of childrearing and/or household chores leaving the other parent out. It is usually accompanied by complaints about the other parent not helping enough or helping the 'wrong' way.

I have conflicting thoughts about this. I know I do it to a degree, and I would like to stop. But I also feel the 'left-out' parent has to have some responsibility and not sit and wait for someone to 'let' him or her take care of a child or do a chore...

I think it's interesting but something about it annoys me and I can't pinpoint what it is...

Would you like to share your thoughts?


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

We see this sort of thing on MDC all the time. Mothers who are exhausted from wearing their babies all day long and nursing them all night - yet who refuse to take a break and recharge for a few hours, because that somehow equates to "leaving" their babies, even though the child would be with its own father.

And yeah, the mothers are right: the father probably doesn't know how to comfort the cranky baby as well as the mother does. But he never gets the chance to figure it out, thus perpetuating the whole sorry cycle.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

I think this is very typical behavior for new moms. Sometimes new dads are clueless. New moms are gung ho, have plans and ideas. For pity's sake, it's a really good thing for the kids, too, that one parent is hyperfocused on them for a while.

But the problem is that Dad doesn't get a chance to figure out what works for him if Mom never lets him, or constantly questions or criticizes him. The other parent does not have to do things exactly the same way mom does, and in fact might find a better way of doing something.

I think kids and their parents benefit enormously when both parents participate and interact fully, in their own unique way.

Gatekeeping mothers sounds like a term made up for an article in a glossy magazine.

===========

Quote:

And yeah, the mothers are right: the father probably doesn't know how to comfort the cranky baby as well as the mother does. But he never gets the chance to figure it out, thus perpetuating the whole sorry cycle.
Exactly.


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## Tuckoo (Jul 11, 2009)

Yeah... I agree that children can only benefit from establishing their unique relationships with each parent and, then, with others around them. This can only enrich their lives.

Maybe what I find annoying is it insinuates that the mom is at fault for not 'allowing' the other partner to parent. Shouldn't they be just as interested in doing it?

Yes, it's tough cycle to break.


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## rajahkat (Oct 1, 2003)

I've never had any problem letting dh do his share of childrearing. Frankly, I'll go nuts if I don't have time to myself, so from the very early days of our baby-having, I would go out alone, and dh did his part, his own way, and that works for me!

It's the housekeeping I can't quite figure out. I WANT more help, but I think dh does a half-a$$ed job, so then I just get cranky about his "helping" So, I'm unhappy if he doesn't help, and I'm unhappy if he does.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tuckoo* 
Maybe what I find annoying is it insinuates that the mom is at fault for not 'allowing' the other partner to parent. Shouldn't they be just as interested in doing it?

It depends on the couple, but I've known couples where the dad _was_ interested in parenting, but the mom didn't allow it. Sure, they persisted, but it's pretty hard to establish a relationship with one's baby when your "partner" swoops in, physically takes the child from you, chastises you (publicly) for not knowing what the baby wants, etc. I'd never heard the term "gatekeeper" (and, honestly, I think it sounds stupid), but there are dynamics where it's more than just a dad who can't be bothered.

Me? I've always wanted my kids to be as attached as I can manage to as many family members as I can manage. If I get hit by a bus, I want them to be close to other people, too.


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## crl (May 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
It depends on the couple, but I've known couples where the dad _was_ interested in parenting, but the mom didn't allow it. Sure, they persisted, but it's pretty hard to establish a relationship with one's baby when your "partner" swoops in, physically takes the child from you, chastises you (publicly) for not knowing what the baby wants, etc. I'd never heard the term "gatekeeper" (and, honestly, I think it sounds stupid), but there are dynamics where it's more than just a dad who can't be bothered.

Me? I've always wanted my kids to be as attached as I can manage to as many family members as I can manage. If I get hit by a bus, I want them to be close to other people, too.


I agree with all of this. I've seen parents where the mom complains nonstop that the dad doesn't do anything right. (Really, she will complain that he didn't give the bath right. How the heck do you not give the bath right?) But then she complains that he doesn't help enough. I really feel for the dad in that situation.

And I also agree that I want DS to be comfortable with multiple people for lots of reasons, including the getting hit by a bus concern. I've done my best not to complain when DH does things differently (offers different foods, puts together what I think are mismatched outfits, etc) and I've done my best to encourage DS to believe that DH can help him with things/answer questions/take care of him.

Catherine


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## plunky (Aug 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
It depends on the couple, but I've known couples where the dad _was_ interested in parenting, but the mom didn't allow it. Sure, they persisted, but it's pretty hard to establish a relationship with one's baby when your "partner" swoops in, physically takes the child from you, chastises you (publicly) for not knowing what the baby wants, etc. I'd never heard the term "gatekeeper" (and, honestly, I think it sounds stupid), but there are dynamics where it's more than just a dad who can't be bothered.

Me? I've always wanted my kids to be as attached as I can manage to as many family members as I can manage. If I get hit by a bus, I want them to be close to other people, too.

And god forbid the spouse on the "outside" wants circ or vax or whatever else.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

It was a little hard for me in the very beginning to "let go" but never did I try and stop DH from parenting his son. I also knew to never criticize anything he did but gently show him things he didn't know. He had never been around babies before and was really clueless but did a fantastic job of figuring things out.

What made it better was the fact that we were not using daycare when I returned to work. DH had the day shift with DS so I had to let him parent his way and they both survived!


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
It depends on the couple, but I've known couples where the dad _was_ interested in parenting, but the mom didn't allow it. Sure, they persisted, but it's pretty hard to establish a relationship with one's baby when your "partner" swoops in, physically takes the child from you, chastises you (publicly) for not knowing what the baby wants, etc. I'd never heard the term "gatekeeper" (and, honestly, I think it sounds stupid), but there are dynamics where it's more than just a dad who can't be bothered.

I've known couples like that too, but I have a hard time feeling too sorry for the dads. I feel like they are on some level allowing the moms to take control. It's like they get caught in this victim role and sort of go with it.

I mean if my husband ever swooped in and took my kid from me and berated me in front of people for not doing something right, I'd flip out on him right then and there. I just cannot imagine putting up with that.

I wonder it's a confidence thing. Like these dads don't feel confident enough in their parenting ability to stand up to mom. Either way though, I think both parents play a role and are culpable.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *plunky* 
And god forbid the spouse on the "outside" wants circ or vax or whatever else.

Well if dad wanted to circumcise the baby, I'd be all for mom being the gatekeeper.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I've known couples like that too, but I have a hard time feeling too sorry for the dads. I feel like they are on some level allowing the moms to take control. It's like they get caught in this victim role and sort of go with it.

I mean if my husband ever swooped in and took my kid from me and berated me in front of people for not doing something right, I'd flip out on him right then and there. I just cannot imagine putting up with that.

I wonder it's a confidence thing. Like these dads don't feel confident enough in their parenting ability to stand up to mom. Either way though, I think both parents play a role and are culpable.

I wonder if it isn't the fact that society tells dad they are inept. I think in part societal roles play a part. I do think it is getting better but........


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## plunky (Aug 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
Well if dad wanted to circumcise the baby, I'd be all for mom being the gatekeeper.

Funny how that works.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I think this is commonplace.

I also think there's a world of difference between circumcision and what is being talked about here though. One is a permanent body alteration. The other...well, I have heard moms (keep in mind my circle of acquaintances is almost exclusively women) ripping their husbands up one side and down the other because they *didn't wipe the baby's butt right* (And I'm talking about the fold of the wipe and how one takes it out of the container, not the very real necessary front-to-back for a girl) during a diaper change. Or god forbid they put them in THE WRONG OUTFIT! Or they didn't do the bedtime routine just right. Or they picked something out of the baby food available to make dinner for the baby instead of following the written, timed instructions to a tee. And invariably these moms also complain that they never get any help. Well, listening to them trash their partners so thoroughly in front of virtual strangers, I know that I would certainly never babysit for them even though I know how to do everything 'right', I can't imagine how it would feel to have someone who's supposed to love me and with whom I created said child with treating me as if I were brainless scum for something that is so inane. 

I think most men, unless they were raised with a lot of siblings or ones they were allowed to care for, feel awkward and unsupported in general to learning baby care. And they may be reluctant to get into a shouting match with their partners when the baby is young because they don't want to frighten the baby and they already feel like their spouse thinks they're crap. They're also adjusting to parenting as well, and it can be hard for men AND women in such an emotional, hormonal, sleep deprived time to say firmly to one's spouse, "No, I'm sorry, but I will not be treated that way," and even harder for the spouse being told that to actually hear it. If someone is calling you incompetant because you are holding the baby safely but differently, do you really think they're going to be capable of listening to you say, "gee, that hurt my feelings, can you please respect that I have a different way of doing things?" Or is it just going to mean another screaming match and even more painful distance and rejection?

I probably would have very much been a gatekeeper (it's in my nature to be controlling, I'm extremely biased towards my point of view, and if I'm made a decision on something I am right and especially if I am at a physical or emotional low point arguments are invitations for me to sharpen my claws on someone). Fortunately for me, my very wise and beloved MIL was able to talk to me gently but firmly about it. The woman is amazing, because she can be very real with you while still doing it in an disarmingly loving way.

If someone is truly gatekeeping, then it is their primary responsibility to work on changing that. If a partner is out of the house most of the day by necessity and the gatekeeper is the one home, what exactly is the outsider supposed to do? Rip a breastfeeding baby from the arms of a gatekeeping mother? Snatch the baby away and kick the SAHD out of the house as soon as the WOHM gets home? It's not quite as simple as 'do more', because getting space to be yourself as a parent also depends to some degree on your partner being willing to shut up and let you make mistakes. And there is only so much emotional abuse that I think it's human to expect someone to take before they protect themselves. (and actually, yes, I do think someone who is constantly undermining, criticizing, and dressing down their partner over outfit choices, not following the predetermined schedule for things other than medical necessities, ect. is being emotionally abusive.) In the case of abuse, I feel that of COURSE the victim has some control over what actions they can take to protect themselves, but ultimately it's the abuser that bears the most responsibility for their actions.

I think there are plenty of gatekeeprs of both genders out there. I just think that women tend to be the most noticeable because they're the ones who tend to talk and castigate their partners behind their backs to all their friends. I'm sure there's an equivalent thing that men do, I just haven't been privy to it.


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## noobmom (Jan 19, 2008)

Some people are just "my way or the highway" types. My mom is like that. My sister is like that. And guess what? Their husbands hardly help around the house or with the kids. My sister actually complained to me that when her husband makes the bed he doesn't put the sheet on the right way (sometimes he puts the wide trim at the foot of the bed). Yes, ok, you'd think if you told an adult he would be able to remember it after the 3rd time, but REALLY does it matter that much? So, I see both sides of it.

Me, on the other hand, let DH do as much as he wants (which is a lot) and sometimes ask him to do more, too. One thing I hate to do is clean the shower, so he does that while I do the rest of the bathroom. Problem is he can't see pink very well, so the shower doesn't get as clean. We've worked it out...when he's almost done, he asks me if I see any pink. He's not insulted, I'm not hypercritical. If he sometimes he misses spots, so be it. The shower is still cleaner than before he scrubbed it. Every once in a while I do it so that it gets extra clean.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom* 
I wonder if it isn't the fact that society tells dad they are inept. I think in part societal roles play a part. I do think it is getting better but........

I think that very likely plays a role in some fathers confidence. That said, I still don't think it's an excuse to allow mom to run the show all the time.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *plunky* 
Funny how that works.

If it makes you feel better, I'd be all for a dad being a gatekeeper on that issue as well. I fully support any and all parents that want to protect their children from mutilation.


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *plunky* 
Funny how that works.

Well, if one of us is a "gatekeeper," it's certainly me and not my Dh. But if I told him tomorrow, for example, that I wanted to go out and get DD's ears pierced, he would absolutely put his foot down and say "No." If he told me he wanted to circ our son, I would put my foot down and say no. When I told him I wanted a homebirth w/ DD, he didn't like the midwife, and he said No.
You can be a "gatekeeper" or not and still have "hills to die on," as it were.

I think circ is a really poor example of the issues raise in the article.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

I would like to remind everyone of the UA:

Quote:

*We are not interested, however, in hosting discussions on the* *merits of* crying it out, harsh sleep training, physical punishment, formula feeding, elective cesarean *section, routine infant medical circumcision*, or mandatory vaccinations.
Please keep this in mind when posting.


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

I have 2 small kids (DD1 is 3, DD2 is 10 months), and I WOH, FT. I can't even BEGIN to tell you the stupid comments I hear about that, ranging from "And DH hasn't burned the house down yet?" to "You LET him babysit?" (Let? and uh, they're HIS KIDS TOO! It's not called babysitting when I'm with them, why would it be when he is?)

Oy...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I mean if my husband ever swooped in and took my kid from me and berated me in front of people for not doing something right, I'd flip out on him right then and there. I just cannot imagine putting up with that.

I wonder it's a confidence thing. Like these dads don't feel confident enough in their parenting ability to stand up to mom. Either way though, I think both parents play a role and are culpable.

I know in at least one of those couples, it was totally that. The dad was terrified of screwing up with his kids (seriously dysfunctional upbringing himself - CPS involvement, two alcoholic parents, etc.) _and_ their oldest was his stepson. He figured she knew what she was doing, and if she really came down on him, he assumed he was wrong.

That said...I'd probably flip out in that circumstance, too. Of course, if I flip out on my spouse when other people are around, I'm not that likely to have people wondering if I beat him in private. That can, and does, happen when a husband flips out on his wife. The dynamic is just different. And, really - having a big scene between the parents doesn't exactly help build healthy relationships between the parents and the kids, imo.

Honestly, in the case of one of the couples I have in mind, I'd have walked out a long time ago if I were the dad. Of course, I have _no_ doubt she'd do everything she could to minimize/eliminate his access to his kids in that situation, too.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *plunky* 
And god forbid the spouse on the "outside" wants circ or vax or whatever else.

??
That has nothing to do with being the gatekeeper. I'd no more allow my spouse to circumcise my son than circumcise my daughter or cut off any other body part. Vax? We'd talk about vax. We _do_ talk about vax. We compromise on vax. There is no compromise on circ. Anybody who wants to cut healthy parts off my baby's body is going to do it over my dead body. Nobody would call me a "gatekeeper" if my husband wanted to cut off the baby's finger and I stopped him. What's the difference?

ETA: I'm also all for it if any dad stops his wife from circing their son. It has nothing to do with the gender of the parent who wants to cut.


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## Tuckoo (Jul 11, 2009)

I've enjoyed reading your opinions. I agree that some uber-controlling moms have made it impossible for their partners (and others) to help. I've witnessed a few incidents like these and I always cringe.

I would never take the child away from her dad (or another loving family member or friend). However, if the child is asking for me and trying to wriggle away from someone, I will be available. I've had my dd crying in someone else's arms, struggling to free herself because she wants to be with me, and the other person just won't let go. Anyway, that's for another thread...

I would never critizise other superficial things like outfits (though I've silently laughed about dresses worn backwards or swimsuits that have been twisted in impossible ways around a little body) or the choice of dinners.

But it's sometimes not that simple if one of the parents works outside the home all the time and spends very little time with the children. My dh tries, but he gets easily frustrated and calls me as soon as something gets a little bit hard. He is one to plop a child in front of the tv for the whole evening so he can surf the net and be left alone. Sometimes he won't even let her watch what she wants so he can have a music program he wants to listen to while he is on the computer. Of course dd would rather be with me. I actively play with her. And I would definitely love some time alone to just surf the web and shut the world out, but I don't like doing it to dd if I can't help it. And I want dh (or the grandparents) to feel that way too. I don't really say anything, but sometimes my irritation shows when I get back from somewhere and the kid is whinier and needier than when I left because no one has really paid attention to her.

I guess it is some sort of gatekeeeping in that I want everyone to be like I am with her... But, really, is attention so much to ask from her own dad? I know I have to work on some of these issues but it still grates on my nerves.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
That said...I'd probably flip out in that circumstance, too. Of course, if I flip out on my spouse when other people are around, I'm not that likely to have people wondering if I beat him in private. That can, and does, happen when a husband flips out on his wife. The dynamic is just different. And, really - having a big scene between the parents doesn't exactly help build healthy relationships between the parents and the kids, imo

Well I certainly wasn't suggesting that I would act in a way that if I were a man that others might assume I was a secret abuser. Perhaps I should have used another term, but I was thinking flipping out to mean more like strongly asserting myself as well as letting my spouse know he was crossing a line. I don't think I would have to cause a big scene to do that. And I think it is far more detrimental to the kids to see one parent get walked all over all the time than it would be to witness that parent stick up for themselves and set up healthy boundaries. That would actually be a good thing in my book.

Also, I think if a father were to assert himself when a mom was being really out of line and super controlling he would have most people's support unless of course they were only with the mom's like-minded friends who she trash talks to. I know I have found myself secretly rooting for one guy in particular to do just that.


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## crl (May 9, 2004)

I wonder sometimes if it kind of starts when the first kid is a newborn and mom is the only one who can breastfeed. And so mom gets lots of confidence in being able to sooth the baby and dad, well, not so much. (This is in no way meant to suggest that people shouldn't breastfeed!) And then if mom is a stay at home parent that sort of perpetuates the cycle. Throw in certain personality types and . . . .

Well, who knows how it happens. But I do think this is a real phenomenon in some families, based on my observations.

Catherine


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## KristyDi (Jun 5, 2007)

My DH and I have actually stopped hanging out with another couple because the wife is like this. I can. not. take. the way she constantly talks down about him and orders him around. She was constantly making comments about how she couldn't believe I "allowed" my DH to do x or y and how she'd never allow her dh to do that.








um, I married a grown up. He does not need my permission to pick out clothes for his dd or to play video games (both things she didn't allow)

I think lack of confidence feeds into men allowing situations like this to continue. Our culture tells men that they are incompetent. Seriously name a sit com where the dad has it together as a parent.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tuckoo* 

I have conflicting thoughts about this. I know I do it to a degree, and I would like to stop. But I also feel the 'left-out' parent has to have some responsibility and not sit and wait for someone to 'let' him or her take care of a child or do a chore...

The problem with that is stepping up and doing something that needs doing can get the other parent in a whole heap of trouble with the 'gatekeeper'. Basically a "your damned if you don't and damned if you do" relationship. Don't do anything, get in trouble. Do something and get in trouble. If both outcomes were me getting in trouble I'd take the easy route too.


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## cattmom (Apr 6, 2009)

Oh, I don't know. There is a wrong way to give a baby a bath, like leaving them unattended, or washing the bum and THEN washing the face with the same cloth. There is a wrong way to feed babies and young children, like giving them foods they can choke on or have allergic reactions to.

If you have one parent who has spent time boning up on baby care (and everyone on this board has to admit it is an impressively serious and steep learning curve at first), it can be hard to go take a shower and come back and see your young child about to make a meal of the "do not feed" list, thoughtfully laid out on the high chair tray by your partner, who is sitting in another room answering e-mail.

It is especially hard when the partner - a funloving, doting dad who loves children and loves to play - doesn't feel like learning any of this stuff, and isn't interested in what you know about it, either.

We're not talking about putting dresses on backward here - that stuff is pretty cute. But the safety things, and the major, major annoyances, like constantly leaving dirty diapers anywhere in the house, could make any woman barking mad. I'm sure most people would say I should be glad he changes diapers. I would be, if the dog would stop showing up in the living room with her face smeared with baby crap.


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## LilacMama (Aug 18, 2008)

I have to work full-time outside the home to make ends meet. Therefore, my husband HAD to figure out how to take care of our baby from 8 weeks of age on. And she was colicky. And the learning curve was steep.

I feel like he loves her even more than he would have because of all the awful and wonderful times they've had together. If you REALLY have to take care of something/someone, you love that thing or person in a deeper way.

So, even though it broke my heart when he would call me sometimes, in the beginning, to say that she had been screaming for 3 hours and nothing was working...I'm glad it happened the way it did -- because those two are TIGHT with each other.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cattmom* 
Oh, I don't know. There is a wrong way to give a baby a bath, like leaving them unattended, or washing the bum and THEN washing the face with the same cloth. There is a wrong way to feed babies and young children, like giving them foods they can choke on or have allergic reactions to.

If you have one parent who has spent time boning up on baby care (and everyone on this board has to admit it is an impressively serious and steep learning curve at first), it can be hard to go take a shower and come back and see your young child about to make a meal of the "do not feed" list, thoughtfully laid out on the high chair tray by your partner, who is sitting in another room answering e-mail.

It is especially hard when the partner - a funloving, doting dad who loves children and loves to play - doesn't feel like learning any of this stuff, and isn't interested in what you know about it, either.

We're not talking about putting dresses on backward here - that stuff is pretty cute. But the safety things, and the major, major annoyances, like constantly leaving dirty diapers anywhere in the house, could make any woman barking mad. I'm sure most people would say I should be glad he changes diapers. I would be, if the dog would stop showing up in the living room with her face smeared with baby crap.

This doesn't sound like it has anything to do with the "gatekeeper" thing at all. If someone is responsible for a child's care, they need to be responsible.

And, I don't know anybody who would think you "should be glad he's changing diapers", if he's leaving them around where the dog can get them. I'm sure there are people who would say that, but I don't know them (or, possibly, they carefully hide their Neanderthalic views of this when I'm around).


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## cattmom (Apr 6, 2009)

People are talking about frazzled moms who don't want to accept help. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think more than a little of that "gatekeeping" is due to real problems, rather than just hormones or a bad attitude.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

But "gatekeeping" is, by definition (it comes from T. Berry Brazelton's books, by the way, as best I can tell), correcting things that don't need correcting for the sake of control. If you are correcting things that do need correcting, it isn't gatekeeping.


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## mamadebug (Dec 28, 2006)

I know a couple of families like this. We spend less time with them than we used to because it can be hard to be around them. The moms always are so controlling, annoyed with their partners and tired - but they bring some of that on themselves, really. They freak out about everything - from the way the kids clothes are put on, to how the bottle was made, to the kids getting "too" dirty, nap not being done right and on and on. I can imagine it is a difficult dynamic to live with as their partner. And while I don't feel sorry for the partner who backs off, I can see how it develops. To me, it just seems like a general lack of respect for the other person in a parenting role.


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## cattmom (Apr 6, 2009)

I see what you're saying about the definition of gatekeeping, but I think in practice it gets fuzzy. As time goes by, you realize your partner doesn't know what he doesn't know. Worse, you don't know and can't anticipate what he doesn't know. Whatever happens could be something completely trivial. It could be something ultra serious. As it grinds on, it makes sense to keep the baby in your arms and the diaper bag by your side, showers be damned. But to the outside world, you just look like a big nasty gatekeeper. I don't know why I'm still talking, but I think there's a way to see it from the gatekeeper's point of view - that it's not just a case of different parenting styles. I suspect in a few generations this problem will be gone.


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

I know SO MANY women like this. Like pp said "damned if you do, damned if you don't" for the fathers. If they do anything it is wrong & so they don't do anything & it's still wrong. Geez , if everything I did was wrong I'd give up trying too - it sure is easier to do nothing & be wrong.

I honestly think a lot of it is the current attitude towards men of "it's like I have a third child". It drives me batty actually. Yes, they need to step up more but they also need support in that (as in, stop emasculating them from the get go).


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama* 
We see this sort of thing on MDC all the time. Mothers who are exhausted from wearing their babies all day long and nursing them all night - yet who refuse to take a break and recharge for a few hours, because that somehow equates to "leaving" their babies, even though the child would be with its own father.

I don't think that is _necessarily gatekeeping_. I mean there are people who will give the "Oh, you deserve a break" speech to new mothers, who find it more stressful to leave the baby. At least in the first few months. With my first baby, I actually started my choir rehearsal up again right away, and it was a stressful mess. My husband sort of figured out how to comfort her, but for him it was pacing with her while she cried for the entire time I was gone. It was a bad scene and if I had just waited about 6 months, it would have been easier. But I got the thing about deserving a break, and it just wasn't fun and didn't feel like a break. I think there was a biological reason for that.

On the other hand, some people are extremely picky about things and may treat their spouses like children themselves. I'm really not one of those people, but my husband has this engineer kind of mind where he wants a flowchart or illustrated instructions for doing certain aspects of childcare. It is annoying as heck. I remember when I would ask him to get up with the toddler one day a week, and he said he didn't know what I wanted her dressed in. I told him she had a closet and drawer full of clothes, pick something. His response was something like, "Well, OK, but you won't like what I put on her." Put her in a diaper, but her in a gunny sack, I don't care. Sheesh!


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## cattmom (Apr 6, 2009)

So, suppose you say to your partner - Hey, stop! You just washed her bum with that cloth. Don't use it on her eyes. Here's a fresh one.

Your partner could see that as a needed correction, as a couple of PPs put it.

Or if he does't like getting corrected (and who really wants to be corrected by another adult?) he could see it as motivation to do his own learning on baby care (maybe dig out the literature from the baby care class you both took?)

Or he could see it as "getting in trouble" as a couple of PPs put it, and view his wife as an emasculator who is treating him like a third child.

Who is really getting in trouble in this scenario?


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cattmom* 
So, suppose you say to your partner - Hey, stop! You just washed her bum with that cloth. Don't use it on her eyes. Here's a fresh one.

Honestly, if my husband were bathing her and using the same washcloth on her bum as her face, I doubt I'd even be in the room. He'd be the one giving her the bath, so I wouldn't have to do it. So I wouldn't even notice.


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## cattmom (Apr 6, 2009)

It was her first bath. We were both there. And you might notice later if it led to pinkeye.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

I think it's biological and hardwired. I don't know about anyone else, but my husbands (two different ones) have all collapsed with colds two or three days post-partum, worn out with the stress of baby-having and pregnancy and all else. (The medical term is couvade, if you wish to google.) Unfortunately, this coincides with my baby blues, of feeling desperately under-supported and over-emotional, and therefore reinforces the idea in the back of my head that I should be doing it all, and be able to do it all, and all that crap.
Saying that, I left DD when she was 5 days old for half an hour in the pub over the road for my works Xmas party. Daddy had a bottle of EBM (didn't use it)- she slept on his chest the whole time and as a first-time dad with two step-kids, it was the single best decision we made in our family. It didn't happen again for eight months, but that was OK too.


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

I think the gatekeeping is referring to superficial stuff.

Like the things that bug me but that I would NEVER correct my DH on. Parenting-wise, he makes odd clothes choices for DS-- not wrong, just the clothes don't really go together. Sometimes when DH feeds DS, DS gets a really odd selection of foods. Not unhealthy, or dangerous, just... weird.

Housekeeping-wise, DH does a very half-a$$ed job of doing the dishes, or cleaning the bathroom, and I have to work really hard to bite my tongue. My feeling is, if you are going to do something, do it thoroughly. Sometimes I'd almost rather he didn't help, but I'm not going to say that to him! Don't want to discourage him from trying.









Serious parenting issues (like one partner who struggles with rage, or disagreements on discipline / hygiene / safety issues) are another whole can of worms. I can see where it could get fuzzy (not sure I'd stress about a newborn getting pink-eye from getting her face washed with the same washcloth that her bum was washed with, though). But a partner who wasn't interested in figuring out what he doesn't know and needs to learn would be incredibly frustrating.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viola* 
His response was something like, "Well, OK, but you won't like what I put on her." Put her in a diaper, but her in a gunny sack, I don't care. Sheesh!

I just want to say, I fully believe that DH dressing DD when she was little is the reason DD has the sense of style she now has.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Well, I think this dynamic can happen, as can others that affect the distribution of labor in a family.

But the making of a named syndrome and writing whole magazine articles about it ... I see that way more often about women than men. At least in regards to parenting. I tend to ignore articles like this.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onemomentatatime* 
Well, I think this dynamic can happen, as can others that affect the distribution of labor in a family.

But the making of a named syndrome and writing whole magazine articles about it ... I see that way more often about women than men. At least in regards to parenting. I tend to ignore articles like this.

To his credit, Brazelton does at least give lip service to the idea that men can do it too.


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## hermionesmum (Feb 8, 2007)

Guilty!
Cattmom, I think you understand me and might just be my new best friend.

If only I could just curb my desire to carve "this is what St. Paul meant when he said husbands should worship their wives" onto the brain of every poor, impressionable young adult male of my acquaintance...


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## r&mmommy (Oct 25, 2009)

Quote:

My dh tries, but he gets easily frustrated and calls me as soon as something gets a little bit hard. He is one to plop a child in front of the tv for the whole evening so he can surf the net and be left alone. Sometimes he won't even let her watch what she wants so he can have a music program he wants to listen to while he is on the computer.
To me, this is a legitimate concern about the way your DH is parenting your DC, NOT gatekeeping. To be honest, I know what the term is *supposed* to mean(I actually saw a talk show a few years back that illustrated this concept very well







), but I feel like it's also being used to label women who have a legitimate concerns - we're told to accept how our DH/SO's do things, and let them do it "their" way, lest we be considerded _controlling_ or a _nag_. But all too often, I've heard of DH/SO's purposely doing a half hearted job so they won't be asked again. I also think labels like this could be yet another mark against a women who does AP, while her SO may not.


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cattmom* 
People are talking about frazzled moms who don't want to accept help. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think more than a little of *that "gatekeeping" is due to real problems*, rather than just hormones or a bad attitude.

Yes, I agree w/ this. I love my DH, but in the first few years of DD's life, it was very hard for me to leave her w/ Dh at all. The first time I left (30 minutes to pick up dinner), I came back to find DD screaming, red and sweaty and sobbing, in her crib. Dh had "tried to make her happy, but she wasn't, and she might as well cry in her crib as in my ear."







Now, Dh was having a hard time adjusting to parenting--he is doing so much better now-- and I suppose the only way to have made him "better" was to leave him w/ DD more so that he could develop a love for her which would make it hard for him to just dump her, sobbing, all alone in her room.

But you know-- I felt like, as a young mom who was struggling emotionally w/ things myself, and drained and hunrgy and tired all the time from being the only one who could nurse or get up in the night (because he, again, would always say, 'Oh, just leave her, she'll go back to sleep!"), *I did not have the energy* to play matchmaker between an infant and an adult. It was truly, in our case, a *lot* more work to "let" him do things, because it wasn't just letting go (and oh, how happy I would have been to let go!)-- it was *convincing him to do it*, telling him how to do it, and then making sure, 30 minutes later, that her diaper *had* been changed. It got to the point that I didn't even ask him any more, because it made me so sad and angry when he said no, or just avoided and avoided and avoided until I *had* to do it myself, that it was easier emotionally to let it be.

My situation may be *somewhat* unique, but I think it's probably just an exaggerated form of what happens for a lot of people.


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## Phoenix~Mama (Dec 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaterPrimaePuellae* 
Yes, I agree w/ this. I love my DH, but in the first few years of DD's life, it was very hard for me to leave her w/ Dh at all. The first time I left (30 minutes to pick up dinner), I came back to find DD screaming, red and sweaty and sobbing, in her crib. Dh had "tried to make her happy, but she wasn't, and she might as well cry in her crib as in my ear."







Now, Dh was having a hard time adjusting to parenting--he is doing so much better now-- and I suppose the only way to have made him "better" was to leave him w/ DD more so that he could develop a love for her which would make it hard for him to just dump her, sobbing, all alone in her room.

But you know-- I felt like, as a young mom who was struggling emotionally w/ things myself, and drained and hunrgy and tired all the time from being the only one who could nurse or get up in the night (because he, again, would always say, 'Oh, just leave her, she'll go back to sleep!"), *I did not have the energy* to play matchmaker between an infant and an adult. It was truly, in our case, a *lot* more work to "let" him do things, because it wasn't just letting go (and oh, how happy I would have been to let go!)-- it was *convincing him to do it*, telling him how to do it, and then making sure, 30 minutes later, that her diaper *had* been changed. It got to the point that I didn't even ask him any more, because it made me so sad and angry when he said no, or just avoided and avoided and avoided until I *had* to do it myself, that it was easier emotionally to let it be.

My situation may be *somewhat* unique, but I think it's probably just an exaggerated form of what happens for a lot of people.

I wanted to say you are not alone! DH and I have gone through very similiar things... We both work full time so care of DD is split between us. So I have no choice but to trust him... and in the begining it took A LOT of nagging, that I'm sure would label me awfully... but it was important things to me that society as a whole may not agree with...

Like CIO... DH was okay with letting DD CIO, I am FIRMLY against it. And we talked and had fights about it at times where he just did not want to go through the whole pacing with her crying... but I knew he would not go against my wishes because he didn't want to deal with me yelling at him more about it. In my first month back to work I called A LOT. Just to check up and make sure I didn't hear DD freaking out.

Some would have likely labeled that gatekeeping because I was "hovering" over DH calling at least once an hour.

But, it was very very hard and traumatic for me to return to work. And I think a lot of women can empathize with that. I could not bare the thought of DD possibly sitting at home freaking out because she missed me and Daddy handling it all wrong.









We got through it... and after months of naggin DH has actually come around a lot more to AP ideals. So, in the end my "gatekeeping" is creating a more happy and balanced family. IMO, anyway.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:

I wonder if it isn't the fact that society tells dad they are inept. I think in part societal roles play a part. I do think it is getting better but........
...and that we live in a very mom-centric culture. The majority of advertising, books, blogs, products and other media concerning children are almost always geared toward moms. Same with cleaning products. Do you ever see an ad where a dad is washing the dishes or sweeping the floor? Rarely. There is still a cultural assumption that women are the caretakers of children and the home. As long as we continue to buy into that assumption, many will assume that women are best qualified for that role. Disclaimer: not talking about the role women play in breastfeeding, etc., just that dads may be left at the sidelines even after those initial stages.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I totally believe in it, because I fell into it myself briefly. I was the one with the maternity leave, so I took care of our son for the first year way more than my husband did. So I was the de facto expert as well as the one with the breasts.

The truth was that I made plenty of mistakes, but I made them in solitude; I'm probably still unaware of a lot of them. And like 99.9% of mistakes (and I say this as someone who lost a child to a series of medical mistakes) the consequences were not very grand.

Somehow all the other person's mistakes - and I was often right there refusing to cede control - seemed worse. What's worse was that I kind of treated him nastily about it - my body language and everything gave off strong "you screwed up" vibes rather than "we're learning together" vibes. Part of that was just burnout. But once I was aware of it I noticed how far I had gotten from treating my husband as an equal parenting partner. That was humbling.

Returning to work helped the most because my husband was in charge of the morning routine on his own without me. Now I'm the one who screws that up when I have to do it.


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## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

It's one reason why good parental leave (NOT maternity leave) policies are so important. If fathers don't have equal access to supported parental leave, it reinforces, on a social/cultural level, the whole sad mistaken notion that they aren't capable.

I think gatekeeping exists. When I hear a father caring for his child referred to as a "babysitter" eg. a mother saying that her child is going to be left alone with someone for the first time - and that someone is the father - there's likely some gatekeeping going on.


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## EmmysMama (Oct 11, 2009)

ollyoxenfree, I hear that sometimes too. And a lot of people just assume it as well. I left DD with my aunt for maybe 15 minutes while I put gas in the car once and then commented to my mom later that it was "the first time I left her with anyone". My mom gasped and said "She's never even been alone with daddy!?"

Uh, yeah, she's been alone with daddy! I don't count that as leaving her with someone. Dad is not a babysitter. My mom was sooooo much a "gatekeeper", in the sense that my dad could do no right with us, even if it was something inconsequential.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I have to agree with olly -- when dad is refered to as a babysitter something isn't right.

Being concern is one thing being controlling is another.

I have a friend that struggles with the control thing. She lives in TX. Her son (13 at the time) spent a hot day in a sweat shirt because her ex-husband did not tell him to put on a different shirt. Her son got a heat rash. Dad's responce he won't do that again will he. He made sure ds had plenty of water. But at 13 a child should know to go change shirts. She was less than happy when the doctor and rest of us agreed with the ex. This dress and clothing issue came up in court. At 11 this child had never picked out his own clothing. She would chance him down with jackets or change of clothes. She would get mad and berate ex because he would not take cooler clothes because it had warmed up since morning.

This control almost lost her joint custody of her son. It cost her the marriage. She is getting help because she has massive control issues. I think if he ex hadn't left she would have lost her son.

Once, she flipped out that her ex and her parents let the son go on a boat, because he could have drown. There was no alcohol involved. Everyone had a life vest because the ex is anal about both. Showing concern, making everyone wear a vest is good. She was gatekeeping when she wanted them not to do it at all unless she was there.


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## Girlprof (Jun 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
But "gatekeeping" is, by definition (it comes from T. Berry Brazelton's books, by the way, as best I can tell), correcting things that don't need correcting for the sake of control. If you are correcting things that do need correcting, it isn't gatekeeping.

Ah, but how to tell the difference? Especially in a major post-partum hormonal soup? I think there's a lot of grey areas and the very existence of grey areas makes the whole issue more complicated.

I know I have sometimes been guilty of gatekeeping. I had to bite my tongue last night when my dad and my DH set the table with the "wrong" soup bowls. DH does often ask me what outfit to put on DD. I know I should let him pick, but I also know he'll send her to daycare in a short sleeved t-shirt when it's 40 degrees out.

For us, what works the best is for me to leave the house. If I am out of the way, DH isn't tempted to ask me for help and I"m not tempted to give it. We've got enough of this under our belts by now that DH is quite competent and I am generally able to ignore stuff like poopy diapers left in diaper pails for too long (no dog at our house so this is less tragic).


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onemomentatatime* 
But the making of a named syndrome and writing whole magazine articles about it ... I see that way more often about women than men. At least in regards to parenting.

IME, women are about 1000X more likely to be reading articles in parenting magazines in the first place. So, pointing out that "gatekeeping" is unhealthy behaviour on a woman's part _might_ serve the purpose of causing someone to take stock and realize they're doing their partner and child(ren) a disservice. Pointing out that such-and-such behaviour on the part of men is unhealthy isn't likely to do that.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tuckoo* 
I've enjoyed reading your opinions. I agree that some uber-controlling moms have made it impossible for their partners (and others) to help. I've witnessed a few incidents like these and I always cringe.

I would never take the child away from her dad (or another loving family member or friend). However, if the child is asking for me and trying to wriggle away from someone, I will be available. I've had my dd crying in someone else's arms, struggling to free herself because she wants to be with me, and the other person just won't let go. Anyway, that's for another thread...

I would never critizise other superficial things like outfits (though I've silently laughed about dresses worn backwards or swimsuits that have been twisted in impossible ways around a little body) or the choice of dinners.

But it's sometimes not that simple if one of the parents works outside the home all the time and spends very little time with the children. My dh tries, but he gets easily frustrated and calls me as soon as something gets a little bit hard. He is one to plop a child in front of the tv for the whole evening so he can surf the net and be left alone. *Sometimes he won't even let her watch what she wants so he can have a music program he wants to listen to while he is on the computer.* Of course dd would rather be with me. I actively play with her. *And I would definitely love some time alone to just surf the web and shut the world out, but I don't like doing it to dd if I can't help it.* And I want dh (or the grandparents) to feel that way too. I don't really say anything, but sometimes my irritation shows when I get back from somewhere and the kid is whinier and needier than when I left because no one has really paid attention to her.

I guess it is some sort of gatekeeeping in that I want everyone to be like I am with her... But, really, is attention so much to ask from her own dad? I know I have to work on some of these issues but it still grates on my nerves.

I know this is just the one example. I don't think it's necessarily bad that your daughter didn't get watch what she wanted to, that your dh put something else on that he preferred. In fact, I think that can be really healthy.

For you one part of being a good parent means putting children's programing on TV (you're referring to kids tv, right?). Certainly that's what I do/did. I know I was happy to do this for a long time. Besides, I was curious about the kids shows. I think we moms are happy to immerse ourselves in a baby/toddler centric world, at least more than the guys are. Well that's our _choice._

It's our _choice_ to forgo time on the net in order to focus on the kids.

I've made a lot of sacrifices in order to parent the way I thought I should, and some of them I now think weren't really necessary. It's not so bad for children to live in world that isn't focused on them.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Girlprof* 
DH does often ask me what outfit to put on DD. I know I should let him pick, but I also know he'll send her to daycare in a short sleeved t-shirt when it's 40 degrees out.

Does _he_ wear a short sleeved t-shirt when it's 40 degrees out?

I have no idea if either of these come to play in your situation, but aside from true gatekeeping (eg. mom wanted her child in a specific outfit, dad put her in a different one, and all hell broke loose), there are two dynamics I've seen quite frequently with the issue of clothing being inappropriate for the weather:

1) The parent is comfortable in the cold, and doesn't think about the fact that the child is much smaller and likely to get cold more quickly. IME, this one tends to resolve itself pretty quickly when the focus is on increasing the parent's awareness of the child's increased susceptibility to chills, but tends to be ongoing for a while, if each incidence is simply "fixed" with "oh, it's too cold for a t-shirt - she should wear this one instead".

2) The parent sees that baby is dressed, and just doesn't give any thought at all to whether the clothes are appropriate for conditions. (I think sometimes, they forget the child can't speak to say "I'm too cold/hot".) Again, I've seen this one resolved more effectively by using the "dress the baby the way you're dressed" yardstick than by just saying "too cold/hot - give her this".

As I said, I don't know if either of these are what's going on with your dh or not, but I thought I'd throw them out there. I know I've had a tendency to just fix the immediate problem (child dressed in clothes that are too warm/cold), instead of discussing the overall issue.

I've never been a "gatekeeper". However, with both ds1 and dd1, my partner was unemployed (my ex just...was, and dh wasn't legally able to work in Canada yet). In both cases, we were living on pretty much nothing, financially - but we were both home, and both interacting with the kids all day. Actually, in both cases, my husband did most of the childcare, apart from breastfeeding, in the early days, because he was home, and I was post-op. DH had a steeper learning curve than my ex, because he'd spent less time around babies/young kids - but he made it up the curve pretty quickly. He honestly had a way better intuitive understanding of what was going on with dd1 than I did. (Fortunately, he didn't "gatekeep", either.)


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

I haven't read any other replies...sorry, I have a headache and reading is agitating it!

I tend to be hyper sensitive (read: CONTROLLING) when it comes to a lot of things...my DH is VERY laid back, until a person tries to exert their will over him...then, he swims up stream! So...I kind of run the program around here, what we eat, how the house looks, etc...and he, because he doesn't care about those things, goes with the flow and this has made for many very laid back years for us in our home.

Well. Then, baby came. The one thing I always hate to see, is a dad who feels like he can't get it right because the mama doesn't know how to "share"...just relax and let dad do things his way. So...before our baby was born, I promised myself that no matter how unconventional his ways, no matter how hard it was for me...I would put aside my "I know best" controlling ways and would NOT step on his toes when it came to the practical aspects of his parenting...

There are a couple of things I cannot bend on...things like circ, vax, CIO, I consider those to be health issues and since I'm the one who does the "dirty work" of researching until my little eyes are bleeding, he lets me steer the ship for the most part in making those choices...I summarize what I have researched and he nods his head and says things like "you're right, we're not putting that junk in our kids!" (circ was a little more trying than that, but you get the picture) - HOWEVER....

When it comes to what DD wears when DH dressed her, how he puts her to bed, how he holds her, how they play, EVERYTHING....it's none of my business. He is sort of a "strong silent" type when it comes to taking criticism...but you can see in his eyes that he wants to do things right and if I were to constantly be harping on him "That's not how I bathe her" and "If you want her to sleep, you have to do it this way" - it would hurt him and discourage him....so, from day one, I let him do it his way.

I was a perfect parent before I had kids...weren't we all? I knew exactly how everything was going to go down...it was GREAT! Then, she came...and I had to learn how to be a mama, by being a mama. I wanted DH to be a good dada...so I let him learn how to do it. Yeah, we have always shared tips and in an exhausted moment of frustration after he worked for an hour+ to get her down I would say sometimes "Yeah, I know...it's been hell to get her down lately...I've been walking her a lot next to the noise machine" - but nothing ever beyond that unless he asked for help.

The truth is...the reason they have such an incredible relationship now, is because he stuck with it, even when things were hard. The thing that makes me feel close to my DD is that we've overcome a lot, I've had to learn how to be a mama, right along side her learning to be a human...and he shares that same kind of bond with her as well, because I left him alone to learn how to do it HIS way.

So...he learned the long hard way how she likes to be put to sleep by him (yeah, it's different than the way she likes me to put her down) and she looks crazy when he dresses her...and sometimes I grimace at their play, which seems to be much more physical than the way I play with her...but also much more wild and imaginative....and I love that she has her own, special kind of relationship with him.....but what I love most of all, is seeing the look of pride on his face when he unviels her newest fashion look and says "DADA STYLE!" - because it means that my original plan and the numerous times I've bit my lip and repeated "stay out of it, it's none of your business" to myself have paid off. He loves her and is confidently her father, she loves him and completely trusts him, and he has foud his feet as a parent....he has found his DADA STYLE!


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rajahkat* 
I've never had any problem letting dh do his share of childrearing. Frankly, I'll go nuts if I don't have time to myself, so from the very early days of our baby-having, I would go out alone, and dh did his part, his own way, and that works for me!

It's the housekeeping I can't quite figure out. I WANT more help, but I think dh does a half-a$$ed job, so then I just get cranky about his "helping" So, I'm unhappy if he doesn't help, and I'm unhappy if he does.

This was close to our situation. I discovered that if I make a detailed list of whats needs to be done, like sweep & mop floors, clean and dry counters, unload and load dishes, clean out sink instead of just clean kitchen, DH does a really good job. The last list I made had 25 things on it to do. It sounds like a lot but with the detail it really wasn't, for example cleaning the kitchen was 6 items instead of one. DH only did about 8 things and then took DD outside and played with her, but he did an awesome job and I had a break afterward to just relax for an hour. My problem had been he didn't know what I expected him to actually do when I asked him to help clean up. If we really clean our house well on Saturday it stays fairly clean till about Thursday with minimum upkeep.


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## limette (Feb 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom* 
I wonder if it isn't the fact that society tells dad they are inept. I think in part societal roles play a part. I do think it is getting better but........

I totally agree with this. Dh and I have always been equally involved with the kids.

Once when dd1 was a baby he took her out to give me a break and he got the typical weird stares and "are you babysitting". To which he replied "no, i'm parenting"

A month ago I took dd1 to the movies and he was waiting for us with dd2. He needed to change her diaper and of course there was no change table in the men's washroom. When he inquired about this issue, the staff told him there was only a change table in the women's washroom. So of course says "that's unfair well what am i supposed to do?" she responded with "where's her mother?"

dh's reply was "where's your manager".

this is common. the men's washrooms generally do not have change tables and are almost always filthy.

A lot of people we have come across in real life are completely unaccustomed to a hands on dad.


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## GoestoShow (Jul 15, 2009)

.


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## crl (May 9, 2004)

I think the lack of societal support for dads is an interesting issue. I hadn't really thought of how it could play into "gatekeeping" by moms. DH takes DS places a lot on weekends. When DS was little he would freak out if I left him at home with DH. But if the two of them left me at home, that was fine. (Who knows why?) So they've always gone out together. DH has had multipe people assume he's divorced. And lots of people act like he's a saint or something for taking DS out without me. So weird to us.

Catherine


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## Phoenix~Mama (Dec 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limette* 
I totally agree with this. Dh and I have always been equally involved with the kids.

Once when dd1 was a baby he took her out to give me a break and he got the typical weird stares and "are you babysitting". To which he replied "no, i'm parenting"

A month ago I took dd1 to the movies and he was waiting for us with dd2. He needed to change her diaper and of course there was no change table in the men's washroom. When he inquired about this issue, the staff told him there was only a change table in the women's washroom. So of course says "that's unfair well what am i supposed to do?" she responded with "where's her mother?"

dh's reply was "where's your manager".

this is common. the men's washrooms generally do not have change tables and are almost always filthy.

A lot of people we have come across in real life are completely unaccustomed to a hands on dad.


This is so true! DH and I have actually talked about this and he gets upset that there are no change tables in most men's bathrooms and thinks it is totally unfair too.

I like the family bathrooms that places have been coming up with. I think it's a good compromise.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JSMa* 
I like the family bathrooms that places have been coming up with. I think it's a good compromise.

Family bathrooms rock. It's _so_ nice to be able to pee without worrying about ds2 peeking under other stalls, or dd1 deciding she doesn't need to wait for me and heading off into the mall by herself...


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## Tuckoo (Jul 11, 2009)

Quote:

I know this is just the one example. I don't think it's necessarily bad that your daughter didn't get watch what she wanted to, that your dh put something else on that he preferred. In fact, I think that can be really healthy.

For you one part of being a good parent means putting children's programing on TV (you're referring to kids tv, right?). Certainly that's what I do/did. I know I was happy to do this for a long time. Besides, I was curious about the kids shows. I think we moms are happy to immerse ourselves in a baby/toddler centric world, at least more than the guys are. Well that's our choice.

It's our choice to forgo time on the net in order to focus on the kids.

I've made a lot of sacrifices in order to parent the way I thought I should, and some of them I now think weren't really necessary. It's not so bad for children to live in world that isn't focused on them.

Yes, I agree about not being centered on the child all the time. It doesn't happen that way when she's with me either. However, I do not sit her in front of the TV as a way of 'being' with her, as dh does, nor do I do it as frequently as he does. Sometimes it feels like that's the only way they can be together, not paying attention to each other at all.

I would really not mind too much anyway, if it didn't mean she gets cranky and just needs more from me when I get back. I feel like I have to pay for being away. And, yes, she is even crankier if on top of it she isn't even entertained by what she's being made to watch. (And don't get me started on the appropriateness of MTV for a preschooler).

However, I've gotten quite a bit of perspective from reading all these replies and learning how this is handled and perceived by so many different posters. I enjoy these discussions with the intelligent parents at MDC very much.


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

Quote:

and sometimes I grimace at their play, which seems to be much more physical than the way I play with her...but also much more wild and imaginative....and I love that she has her own, special kind of relationship with him.....but what I love most of all, is seeing the look of pride on his face when he unviels her newest fashion look and says "DADA STYLE!" - because it means that my original plan and the numerous times I've bit my lip and repeated "stay out of it, it's none of your business" to myself have paid off. He loves her and is confidently her father, she loves him and completely trusts him, and he has foud his feet as a parent....he has found his DADA STYLE!
Daddy plays with our ds much differently then I do and ds goes crazy for it. He loves the physical rough housing that seems to come so naturally to my husband.

And last night Daddy did pj's duty and brought Jack down in a different top and bottom. I asked about the pj's not matching and Daddy said, "Oh? Is the President coming over for bedtime stories?"









I also still remember our first day as a family at home. Me and Daddy hunched over this impossibly small baby changing his diaper. Jack was peeing, I was crying, and Daddy was holding us all together. We have been a team ever since.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JSMa* 
This is so true! DH and I have actually talked about this and he gets upset that there are no change tables in most men's bathrooms and thinks it is totally unfair too.

I like the family bathrooms that places have been coming up with. I think it's a good compromise.

They are a good compromise but I also think society is "off" when their is a sign on two of our local family restrooms that says "Dad's Welcomed".


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *betsyj* 

And last night Daddy did pj's duty and brought Jack down in a different top and bottom. I asked about the pj's not matching and Daddy said, "Oh? Is the President coming over for bedtime stories?"










Bwahahaha, my DH does this ALL.THE.TIME. Drives me batty, but the kiddo is clean and ready for bed so I bite my tongue. I love your DH's response!!!


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## Momma2Gianna (Oct 18, 2009)

I read that article, and while at the same time, I noticed some of those behaviors in my self, but I don't think it's a problem.

When my DD was first born, (she was preemie after a traumatic birth experience) I literally COULD NOT care for her. We went to the NICU together, but I was SO weak, I couldn't stand there long enough to change her diaper. DH HAD to do it. He fed her, (I pumped) because she was too little to nurse (her latch was very weak and she couldn't draw the milk out) Of course, he had the nurses and staff around, but for the most part, he did it all himself.

Until we brought her home.

And then I was up with the baby for feedings, I was still pumping (I exclusively pumped til about 4 weeks when I decided I wanted to nurse, and against medical advice, I nursed my baby, but that's a whole other story and post.) And then it was all me. And he went back to work. I became in charge of everything our of neccessity...If I waited for him to get home to change the baby so he could have a "turn", she'd be in a dirty diaper for HOURS.

And then it got to a point where if he didn't put the diaper on the same as me, I felt like he did it "wrong". If he put her in a mismatched outfit (men!!) I re-did it. And finally I had to ask myself, "Is he doing something that will scar her for life? Is he hurting her?" Of course the answer is no. I just gotta unwind a little and let him do his thing.

There are still things that I do and he doesn't...Like bathing her...But that's because he's not home to do it. When he gets the opportunity, he might not wash her hair the same way I do, but she is going to be clean, happy, and safe, and he is going to marvel at her interacting with her bath toys, because the last time he saw her in a bath, she couldn't sit up yet.

So I can see, sort of, what "gatakeeping" is, but I think all moms do a degree of "gatekeeping", especially if they are the ones home with the kids all the time. It's more of a "I already tried and faild 100 times, and finally,on the 101st try, I got it, so I'm trying to save you the aggravation of trying what doesn't work."


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## PluggingAway (Dec 11, 2008)

I'm a recovering gatekeeper parent. I'm not recovered, mind you, but I am recovering. In an effort to figure out why I micromanaged my son's existance and parented with such "intensity", I was shocked to discover that I was a martyr. I honestly thought that my parenting was due to overwhelming love and "mama bear" instincts, but in reality, I was being a martyr. It was a shocking revelation for me.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tuckoo* 
Maybe what I find annoying is it insinuates that the mom is at fault for not 'allowing' the other partner to parent. Shouldn't they be just as interested in doing it?

Yes, it's tough cycle to break.

oh no, i see it here all.the.time. Dad is excited and has all kinds of ideas but he doesn't do it right enough, good enough, AP enough. Doesn't do it the moms way. doesn't like the sling and wants to put junior in a stroller and go for a walk - oh HORRORS!!! Wants to share a bite of what he is eating - BAD DAD. Has his own way to discipline - ABUSER. Every time he tries to do something his way he is corrected, criticized and given a moutain of stuff to read. So he can learn the proper way to parent. in the mean time mom takes on the martyr role and takes over. eventually he gives up.

I think we all do this to an extent but some people are just so extreme that dad gets nothing and either gives up or is not interested enough to fight for it.


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## Tuckoo (Jul 11, 2009)

Quote:

oh no, i see it here all.the.time. Dad is excited and has all kinds of ideas but he doesn't do it right enough, good enough, AP enough. Doesn't do it the moms way. doesn't like the sling and wants to put junior in a stroller and go for a walk - oh HORRORS!!! Wants to share a bite of what he is eating - BAD DAD. Has his own way to discipline - ABUSER. Every time he tries to do something his way he is corrected, criticized and given a moutain of stuff to read. So he can learn the proper way to parent. in the mean time mom takes on the martyr role and takes over. eventually he gives up.

I think we all do this to an extent but some people are just so extreme that dad gets nothing and either gives up or is not interested enough to fight for it.

Hmmm... Yes, I see what you mean and I can see how someone could just give up.

However, when I think of a reversal of roles, if my dh saw me doing something for dd and said he knew a better way of doing it and gives me a bunch of thought-out reasons, I think I'd be thrilled he's so interested and I'd like to give his approach a try. But that's me. AND that would be because it's about dd. Because if, on the other hand, I got a crazy impulse to do something to, say, my car and I thought it was a helpful and cool thing to do, and dh got all bossy and said I did it wrong... Well, you know, he would take care of everything about the car from now on, I probably wouldn't EVER have the initiative to do that again.

Which gives me more to think about...


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tuckoo* 
Hmmm... Yes, I see what you mean and I can see how someone could just give up.

However, when I think of a reversal of roles, if my dh saw me doing something for dd and said he knew a better way of doing it and gives me a bunch of thought-out reasons, I think I'd be thrilled he's so interested and I'd like to give his approach a try. But that's me. AND that would be because it's about dd. Because if, on the other hand, I got a crazy impulse to do something to, say, my car and I thought it was a helpful and cool thing to do, and dh got all bossy and said I did it wrong... Well, you know, he would take care of everything about the car from now on, I probably wouldn't EVER have the initiative to do that again.

Which gives me more to think about...

good analogy.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tuckoo* 
Hmmm... Yes, I see what you mean and I can see how someone could just give up.

However, when I think of a reversal of roles, if my dh saw me doing something for dd and said he knew a better way of doing it and gives me a bunch of thought-out reasons, I think I'd be thrilled he's so interested and I'd like to give his approach a try. But that's me. AND that would be because it's about dd. Because if, on the other hand, I got a crazy impulse to do something to, say, my car and I thought it was a helpful and cool thing to do, and dh got all bossy and said I did it wrong... Well, you know, he would take care of everything about the car from now on, I probably wouldn't EVER have the initiative to do that again.

Which gives me more to think about...

Well... I don't want to sound like a downer but I'm trying to think of more than a very few times that a parenting decision (other than the sort of easy baby stuff like cloth diaper, etc.) is as easy as evaluating well-thought-out reasons and implementing them.









For example: Bedtime routine. I think most parents agree that a bedtime routine is a good thing. Then, of course, it's Thursday and one parent comes home late and really wants to reconnect so they keep talking to the child for ten minutes past official bedtime start and then they find a funny puppet on the floor and start laughing and then the puppet tickles the child and before you know it they're wrestling on the bed and...

In swoops the parent most invested in routine and says AUGH WE SAID ROUTINE!!!!

But the fact is that the other parent is honouring something - spontaneous interaction, connection, whatever. It's just (in the opinion of the grumpy spouse) ill-timed or misguided. It's a conflict of two rational impulses. And yes there can be an element of who 'pays' the next day in tiredness (but conversely, who 'pays' if moments of tickle-joy are not taken over time and the relationship degrades).

I don't think the main issue in gatekeeping is lack of thoughtful discussion or even a lack of rational thought.

I think the main issue in gatekeeping is the emotional response on the part of the gatekeeper which gives off a fairly consistent signal to the other parent of: _You're doing it wrong._

Not only that but if you do it wrong I will be upset and there will be payback whether that's me swooping in and taking the child away, huffing about, withholding affection, gossiping about it with our friends and family, putting you down in front of others, or whatever.

And yes, I do think that's a problem for many couples and I do think most often it's the woman who is giving off that signal (but not always). Our society supports a wife telling "funny" stories about her husband's incompetence at parenting where a husband telling the same isn't as acceptable (and the same is true in movies and ads and things). And so on and so forth.

In our house I would say my DH is the more natural AP parent; his first instinct tends to be more towards the co-sleeping, attention-giving end of things. When we went through our experience it was really not about the grand philosophical issues but about control - mine.


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## Pepper44 (May 16, 2006)

In our situation I have to be the "gatekeeper" because my DH hasn't been here. He's always at work, and when he gets home it's bedtime for DD and DH desperately needs to use the bathroom and shower after being at work for 12+ hours...

There has been no opportunity for him to learn how to care for DD from infancy! I could only dream of that kind of chance for free time on my part...


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## rhianna813 (Apr 3, 2009)

I would just like to add this to the mix&#8230;

I have this book about relationships (which I highly recommend!) called A Dance of Anger by Harriot Lerner. The premise being that women's anger is a tool for her to know when her boundaries are being overstepped and how she can "change the dance" in a relationship more effectively.

With partners there should be equal responsibility and investment. In the book she points out that women are very much trained to overcompensate in our society and men to under compensate, especially emotionally. When women overcompensate emotionally (expressing feelings strongly), men respond by distancing themselves and losing interest in the subject at hand. The more distance and uninterested they appear the more we strongly express ourselves, trying to get them to care. She is basically feeling for both people. People can only truly connected with things (and other people) when they are emotionally invested to it.

To change the dance the one who is overcompensating needs to step back. Basically stop feeling for both of them, and allow the other person become invested emotionally enough to care and form opinions and join in the process. So what's the problem? When men are free to invest they often have strong emotions to share too. Unfortunately, strong emotions in men make both men and women very uncomfortable. The author basically says keeping men from getting angry or sad is the root cause of why women feel drawn to overcompensate and control so many situations. We want to protect ourselves from their anger and protect them from their sadness. This is happening on a very unconscious level, while consciously we are usually resentful at how distanced and uncaring he is and how overworked and stressed out we are.

So in light of the above, this whole "gateway" parenting thing seems like major overcompensation.

Rhianna


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Lots of interesting stuff here!


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## MommaKitten21 (May 12, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I mean if my husband ever swooped in and took my kid from me and berated me in front of people for not doing something right, I'd flip out on him right then and there. I just cannot imagine putting up with that.

I wonder it's a confidence thing. Like these dads don't feel confident enough in their parenting ability to stand up to mom. Either way though, I think both parents play a role and are culpable.


Could you really ever feel confident if the woman you married and the one person who is supposed to believe in you the most feels that everything you do is "wrong" or that you are somehow incapable of doing something other men can do?

I know the feminists on this site are going to flame me, and I'm ready for it. But honestly, a man is meant to be a strong leader for his family. The protector, the big head guy







If we as women don't give our men a chance, then sorry... that's on us. Not them.

My partner plays rough with our son. Inside I freak out, thinking one of these days a head is going to get hit, or a bone broken.... but you know, my son has a huge smile on his face, my fiance has a huge smile on his face, and it's not my place to interfere just because it's simply "too rough" for my liking and not the way I choose to play with our son.

When I interject to my fiance about something he does "wrong" he withdraws from me a little. Enough of that and you have a broken relationship. This doesn't mean everything he does is right, but there is definitely a way to bring these issues up in a helpful, loving, way versus "you cant do anything right" attitude.

What really gets me is that if the roles were reversed, and the man was telling the woman she didn't know anything about taking care of the children, she couldn't do it right, or whatever, it would be abuse. All though, when the roles are flipped, magically that's not the case. Go figure


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommaKitten21* 
Could you really ever feel confident if the woman you married and the one person who is supposed to believe in you the most feels that everything you do is "wrong" or that you are somehow incapable of doing something other men can do?

Actually that kind of attitude would only spur me on.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommaKitten21* 
I know the feminists on this site are going to flame me, and I'm ready for it. But honestly, a man is meant to be a strong leader for his family. The protector, the big head guy







If we as women don't give our men a chance, then sorry... that's on us. Not them.

Do leader's need to be given a chance? That just sounds really wimpy to me. Personally, I think real leaders don't need to be given a chance to lead, or for others to consciously submit to them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommaKitten21* 
What really gets me is that if the roles were reversed, and the man was telling the woman she didn't know anything about taking care of the children, she couldn't do it right, or whatever, it would be abuse. All though, when the roles are flipped, magically that's not the case. Go figure









If mom stayed on the sidelines and chose to allow it, I wouldn't feel much different. It's just like when I hear women complain that their husbands won't "let" them be involved in the finances. I say both parties are to blame often times and have reasons for acting like they do. Go figure







.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommaKitten21* 
What really gets me is that if the roles were reversed, and the man was telling the woman she didn't know anything about taking care of the children, she couldn't do it right, or whatever, it would be abuse. All though, when the roles are flipped, magically that's not the case. Go figure









The "gatekeepers" I've seen are absolutely emotionally abusive - no doubt in my mind whatsoever. Why do their husbands stay and put up with it? I'm sure the reasons are as complex as they always are when someone stays with an abusive spouse.

That said...dh is not the "leader" of our family. We don't have one.


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