# We are the strictest parents?!



## robin4kids (Jan 20, 2004)

We were told by of 13 y/o son that we are the strictest parents and he hates us for it







My dh is proud of this new label. I on the other hand hate it. I am not saying that I want to give in to my ds's demands, but I wish our friends would stop giving in to their kids' demands.

We don't feel like we are THAT strict. We let ds stay home by himself while we go to the store. He sometimes watches his younger siblings for short times and we pay him. We live in the city, but let him take walks by himself. The things we just won't give in to are movies and shows and video games we find inappropriate for a boy his age. We limit the tv he can watch and only allow hand held games in our house. (these can only be played on the weekends) Oh and no cell phone or face book page. He has an email account, which we monitor.

It could be worse, right? I am just so tired of hearing, "Well XYZ was allowed to see Phush, Milk, or whatever other movie is hot at the moment." "XYZ has a facebook page." "Why do you get to see my email?" Why are parents allowing their kids to see so much violence and sexual content? My ds might look like he is 16, but he is only 13.

We made the mistake of letting him see Steven King's IT. I know, I know Awful!!!! Well they never finished it. Half way through I saw the way my ds and his friend were behaving and pulled the plug. They were so scared, but denied it! Yet every time I ask my ds to go to the basement he asks someone to come with him. HMMMM! We will NEVER make that mistake again. We really believe that kids need to be protected till they are older. Some days i just want to move to the country, homeschool and build a wall around our house. O.K that is a little extreme, but you get the picture.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

He was freaked out by the movie, but is still asking to see scary movies? Maybe part of what's going on is he wants to prove to *himself* that he's mature/old/cool/tough enough to handle that stuff? Does he have any hobbies that let him say "hey, I was able to do that" like martial arts, hiking, building things, etc?

ETA:
Also, there are websites where you can look up exactly why a movie got a certain rating and decide if it's something your child can handle or if it's something that they can handle if you talk to them about key points.


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

I know everybody is different, but at 13 I left home and lived on my own. I traveled the country. This is only one woman's opinion, but I think he needs some autonomy or he will never learn to self regulate.


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## suabel (May 24, 2005)

I for one don't think you are overly protective. We all have to follow our own compass, so what's right for your child and your family certainly might not be a good fit for someone else. At the end of the day, you have to live with your choices. I'd rather err on the overprotective side if I must.

I have a 13-year-old daughter, and her privileges are very similar to what you describe. No cell phone yet (it's actually coming soon), no facebook/myspace, we reserve the right to read her email. Her freedom is increasing as she shows us that's she's ready for it. I know her temperment and maturity, so her father and I get to choose what I think she's ready for. I do allow my daughter some freedom with movies, but only because I know her personality. I do read up on the movie first so I know what she's watching and so we can discuss it later if I think there are talking points, ie. violence, sexual overtones.

Really, you owe no one any explanation on why you choose to parent the way you do. If your son is expressing the need for more independence, of course there are things you can rethink, but certainly at 13 there's lots of time to dole it out in increments.

Finally, I think every kid, no matter how much freedom them have, uses the "but Bob's mom lets him" excuse about something.


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## chiromamma (Feb 24, 2003)

I'd stop monitoring the email, let him get a facebook on the condition that you are one of his friends.
I agree about protecting kids to some degree but they do need to participate in some of the rituals of the culture in which they live.


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## robin4kids (Jan 20, 2004)

We will give our son more freedom to watch more grown up shows/ movies as he shows the maturity for it. We really don't feel that at the tender age of 13 that he knows what is an appropriate show to watch. Children tend to copy what they see on tv. If there is shooting, then they play shooting games.

I think what parents need to remember now is that when they were 13, there was not the same level of technology. Movies were not as graphic. There was no facebook, or email. So yes we could all sit back and let our kids watch whatever they want, play whatever game they pleased.I however am confident that my children will try their best when they are on their own to make the best decisions, but I know there will be some mistakes. I think it is our job as adults to shield our kids till they are mature enough to handle things on their own.

One person said that they think that if i shelter my child too much, they might go crazy when they are older and i am not around. Kids can't drink till they are 21 and some do go crazy when they are finally allowed, but not for long. I am sheltering him from violence and sexual content. The worst that could happen is he could decide to watch every movie we forbid.








The point was not that we did not want him to watch the movies, just that we wanted him to wait till he was older.

I wish more parents would think twice about what they allow their kids to watch and play. Just because they look older does not mean they are mature enough to handle all that is going on in the world. Take the movie "Slum Dog Millionaire", great movie, but way too violent for a teen. I still am having a hard time with the abuse that happened to the children in the movie. One of our friends let their 13 y/o dd watch the movie.







Why put that imagine in a child's head. I wish I did not have those images in MY head.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

I agree with you. Once a person (kid OR adult) sees something, they can't ever "unsee" it.

I let my sons (14-1/2-yr-old twins) watch some R-rated movies when they were 13, but only if I had seen it first, and only if they watched with DH or me, so we could discuss the R-rated aspect. I am not as concerned about language as I am about violence and sex.

We have talked about WHY I feel those shows are inappropriate for them, which helps. I've talked about becoming sensitized to violence by seeing too much too soon, and I generally don't want them watching shows that show casual sexual relationships.

We've also talked about how different families have different values and rules. When our kids have tried the "But Luke gets to..." I ask "Does Luke's family take him skiing? or to ZZ Top concerts? or turkey hunting? Would you rather live with us or with Luke's family?" They realize that there are tradeoffs - and when they stop to think about it, our rules aren't so bad, when they consider the benefits of having us for parents.

You know your son better than any of us, and know what he's ready to handle better than any of us.

My kids both have e-mail accounts (just this year), and we do not monitor them, but they have never given us any reason not to trust them. I do know that they do not e-mail often; our only computer is in the family room, so there's not much privacy.


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## MsChatsAlot (Sep 8, 2005)

I really want my kids to be discriminating consumers. I think, as a parents, we do have some insight into things or have a different perspective. With my kids I have always tried to explain why I think it's not appropriate, talk it through with them and then hear their point of view too. We set up some guidelines that work for all of us and proceed. Going about it this way, I've watched my kids turn off shows in the middle, realizing it was too much for them. I've also said, "this is more than I thought it was and feel it needs to go off now" and they've been okay with that too.

It's a delicate balance between allowing them the space to be in the world and make choices that are best for them...and not being involved enough and really knowing what they are doing.

I typically prefer to have them experience things around me, so they can understand what is truly best for them and I can help them through it, with the hope that when they make decisions and I'm not around, they'll do the same and do what's truly best for them.

There are no easy answers in this gig called parenting, is there?


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

I do not parent like you do and my kids are not violent or awful in any way. You get to parent how you wish and I respect that but other parents can disagree with you and parent in their own way. We are not doing this to sabatoge you. Make your choices and then own them and don't expect other people to make you look good to your child.


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## fek&fuzz (Jun 19, 2005)

If he were writing letters to someone would you read the ones he sent and received? Do you pick up the phone so you can listen to what is happening on the other end of his phone calls? Do you sit with him and his friends so you can hear what they are talking about when they are around?

It sounds like he might need a little privacy.


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsChatsAlot* 
I typically prefer to have them experience things around me, so they can understand what is truly best for them and I can help them through it, with the hope that when they make decisions and I'm not around, they'll do the same and do what's truly best for them.

yea, me too


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *robin4kids* 
The worst that could happen is he could decide to watch every movie we forbid.










and you would not be there to discuss it with them..

maybe the worst that could happen is they could build up resentment towards you and not care what your opinions are...

or they could feel so controlled that they rebel and spend years doing things just because they were not "allowed" instead choosing them

Really I don't mean to be adversarial, but I have reasons for letting my children do the things I let them do, and its not so your kids can come home and tell you I let them do it.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

You don't seem too strict. But I think you might be putting blame on the wrong people.

Last time I checked, it was totally normal for 13yos to "hate" their parents, bang doors, stomp feet, demand more freedom, etc.

Said in a lighthearted way.

Why not let him get a facebook attached to the email you are monitoring? I personally don't think it works to say he can have one if you are his friend. All he has to do is create a different page that you don't know about. It seems more secure to monitor the entire computer and his history.


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## fek&fuzz (Jun 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cherie2* 
and you would not be there to discuss it with them..

maybe the worst that could happen is they could build up resentment towards you and not care what your opinions are...

or they could feel so controlled that they rebel and spend years doing things just because they were not "allowed" instead choosing them

Really I don't mean to be adversarial, but I have reasons for letting my children do the things I let them do, and its not so your kids can come home and tell you I let them do it.

Yep.

I had very lenient parents. And there was this boy that my friend was dating that all the neighborhood parents hated. He was harmless. We were at my friends house, unsupervised, and my mom wanted me to come home since there were no parents. We were just sitting around talking and being bored (I;m sure they imagined we were having a drug fueled orgy) but I didn't want to go home. My mom said "But he's not a good person." I said back "Yeah, but I need to figure that out for myself since you won't always be around me." She agreed, and let me stay.

We figured out shortly after that he wasn't really all that, and then he went to live with his mom. If our parents had forbidden us from seeing him, they would have just pushed us towards him.

I think sometimes kids need some space and freedom and credit for knowing what is right and wrong.

My friends who had the strictest parents were forever sneaking out and drinking and going to parties. My mom told me "If you are at a party and there is beer, you can always take one and just nurse it. No one will know. You can also just pour out the can in the bathroom and fill it with water if you want." But really the smartest way to get me not to drink beer at parties was to give us sips of her Sam Adams beer at home. After that a Bud Light is disgusting!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *robin4kids* 
I wish more parents would think twice about what they allow their kids to watch and play. Just because they look older does not mean they are mature enough to handle all that is going on in the world.

You are more than welcome to raise your children the way you choose to raise them. So am I. I strongly dislike the assumption that parents who have different boundaries for their children than you do are parents who don't "think twice about what they allow their kids to watch and play". I know ds1. I know what bothers him and what doesn't. I can't prescreen movies for him, because, quite honestly, he's perfectly okay with stuff that I absolutely will not watch.

I don't make my decisions based on how old he looks. I make them based on who he is.

You do what's right for your family and stop worrying about what I do with mine, or with what your friends do with theirs. If you're the strictest parents around, then so be it. That's what you are. I don't get why you're wishing that other parents did what you do. Do what's right for you and don't worry about it.


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fek&fuzz* 
But really the smartest way to get me not to drink beer at parties was to give us sips of her Sam Adams beer at home. After that a Bud Light is disgusting!


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fek&fuzz* 
Yep.

My friends who had the strictest parents were forever sneaking out and drinking and going to parties.

ITA. I had a friend growing up who wasn't allowed to touch or look at anything alcohol related. (Aka couldn't bring a beer to dad, couldn't sit next to someone drinking beer). Anyways....she certainly partied it up in her teens years.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fek&fuzz* 
My mom told me "If you are at a party and there is beer, you can always take one and just nurse it. No one will know. You can also just pour out the can in the bathroom and fill it with water if you want."

That is actually an excellent idea! I'll have to remember that...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fek&fuzz* 
But really the smartest way to get me not to drink beer at parties was to give us sips of her Sam Adams beer at home. After that a Bud Light is disgusting!









Amen!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fek&fuzz* 
My friends who had the strictest parents were forever sneaking out and drinking and going to parties.









:
That was my experience, too. There were a few exceptions - the ones like me who were acting out crazily because of other things, but of the more "normal" (aka, not completely dysfunctional) homes, it was mostly the really strict ones that had the wild partiers, ime.

Quote:

My mom told me "If you are at a party and there is beer, you can always take one and just nurse it. No one will know. You can also just pour out the can in the bathroom and fill it with water if you want."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 
That is actually an excellent idea! I'll have to remember that...

That's what my stepbrother told his oldest, as well.

Quote:

But really the smartest way to get me not to drink beer at parties was to give us sips of her Sam Adams beer at home. After that a Bud Light is disgusting!

Quote:









Amen!
HAHAHAHAHA! I'll have to tell dh about that. Since I outgrew my teens, you couldn't pay me to drink beer, even the "good" stuff. But, dh loves imports and craft brews (he also does all-grain homebrewing), and I suspect he'd love this strategy.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 
You don't seem too strict. But I think you might be putting blame on the wrong people.

Last time I checked, it was totally normal for 13yos to "hate" their parents, bang doors, stomp feet, demand more freedom, etc.

Said in a lighthearted way.


Oh yeah. My 12 year old thinks we're the dumbest people _ever._

Too bad. He's still not watching an R rated movie.









We preview everything, and make decisions after we've seen for ourselves. If there is a lot of gratuitous sex and violence, _no._ If it's swearing and a few mildly risque jokes, maybe _yes._

As long as there are age restrictions on certain things, it really isn't up to them, their friends, or their friends' parents, is it?









And I'm not about to let someone else's child watch something that isn't age appropriate without checking with their parents first.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bigeyes* 
And I'm not about to let someone else's child watch something that isn't age appropriate without checking with their parents first.

It's funny. I think I'm forgetting just how much ds1 has grown and matured in the last 3 or so years (he's 16 tomorrow). We controlled his media consumption a lot more strictly at 13 than we do now.

That said...I wish more of his friends had had parents like you. He watched some stuff I would never have let him watch at a couple of his friend's homes, and they were moms I liked, and had _no_ idea they'd let him watch stuff like that. I will admit that I don't check with parents, anymore, though. I did until a year or two ago, if I had any doubts at all. What I really don't get is how often I was greeted with an expression and/or tone of voice that suggested I was nuts for checking in. Even if it was something that ds1 was totally allowed to watch, I'd understand why a parent was checking with me, yk?


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
It's funny. I think I'm forgetting just how much ds1 has grown and matured in the last 3 or so years (he's 16 tomorrow). We controlled his media consumption a lot more strictly at 13 than we do now.

That said...I wish more of his friends had had parents like you. He watched some stuff I would never have let him watch at a couple of his friend's homes, and they were moms I liked, and had _no_ idea they'd let him watch stuff like that. I will admit that I don't check with parents, anymore, though. I did until a year or two ago, if I had any doubts at all. What I really don't get is how often I was greeted with an expression and/or tone of voice that suggested I was nuts for checking in. Even if it was something that ds1 was totally allowed to watch, I'd understand why a parent was checking with me, yk?


I can't get over how many people don't check. Dsd watched something extremely inappropriate at a friend's house a few years ago and I was _livid._ She had a lot of trouble separating reality from fantasy at the time and it was _not helpful at all._







: I always check, just in case, because we've had a few friends who get offended if someone says _butt,_ which means their kids can watch G rated movies only.

How they became friends with us is beyond me. I'm constantly having to edit out @$$.









There are also a lot of children who have nightmares from stuff I might consider relatively mild. Dsd couldn't watch things at 9 Ds watched at 7. I'd like to know those things _before_ I traumatize someone else's kid, not _after.

_ Lately I've noticed every movie that has a romance has characters jumping in and out of bed at the drop of a hat, which seems to give kids the impression _that's how relationships work._ There's no getting to know you period at all, and that is not the message I want my kids to be getting, yk?


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *robin4kids* 
I wish our friends would stop giving in to their kids' demands.

The things we just won't give in to are movies and shows and video games we find inappropriate for a boy his age. We limit the tv he can watch and only allow hand held games in our house. (these can only be played on the weekends) Oh and no cell phone or face book page. He has an email account, which we monitor.

It could be worse, right? I am just so tired of hearing, "Well XYZ was allowed to see Phush, Milk, or whatever other movie is hot at the moment." "XYZ has a facebook page." "Why do you get to see my email?" Why are parents allowing their kids to see so much violence and sexual content? My ds might look like he is 16, but he is only 13.

We made the mistake of letting him see Steven King's IT.

Can I make a few gentle suggestions? My two oldest kids are 18 and 15, and I remember having the same feelings as you describe here, and the same conversations. If I were to look back and do things a little differently (which I can do with The Littles) it'd be to do this:

Sit down and encourage your son to talk about this while you listen. Really listen. He's 13. He wants to feel like 'being a teenager' really matters for something. He wants to feel like he has some control over his life. So REALLY listen to him. Don't just pacify his frustration while you wait to justify your rules and restrictions, but take a few notes on what he is saying and wanting to change. Let him know you'll look over and consider his ideas. Then give it some genuine thought and a few days to chew it over. You might find that he's not wanting things that are totally unreasonable. Maybe he wants a later bedtime. Would it kill either you or him to allow it to be moved a bit? Probably not. Maybe he wants more freedom with media choices. What would be the harm in installing some protective software that blocks inappropriate (sex/violence) sites and backing off on the reading of the email? ITA w/the pp...I doubt you listen in on his phone calls, this is the same concept. As for Facebook, it's genuinely something TONS of 13yos have and use to communicate with one another, so what good is it accomplishing to forbid that specific thing? As for the cell phone, would you consider it if he pays for it himself?

I do understand and totally get the concept of wanting to shield them from the unpleasantness of this world. But he's growing up, and the fact that he's complaining means he's frustrated with the current state of things. I'm not suggesting you just wipe out all of your rules, but consider involving him in the process of making them. Getting him on board as a team player in the family NOW, as opposed to just a cast member, will pay dividends later down the road as he 'grows into' his personality and ambitions.

HTH mama, these teens are an adventure!


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Coming back to add....

As for wishing other parents wouldn't 'give in' to their teen's demands. First, you don't know that the 'other teens' are demanding anything in the first place. Second, maybe those things are ok with their family, and they haven't had a problem with it. My oldest daughter and I used to watch South Park together when she was younger, I think about 15-16. I remember a fellow HSing family overheard us talking about it and just about came UNGLUED that I would 'expose' her to 'such trash'. The thing is, it was a great vehicle to talk about current events in a way that was relevant to her and that teen sense of humor. South Park is totally responsible for launching us into conversations about everything from AIDS to green-washing to the Iraq war and Bush. So, in other words, it worked for us.

Also, a 13yo watching IT is a LOT different than a 13yo watching Bad Boys or some other mindless but R rated movie where the bad guys lose and the good guys win.

And, FWIW, The Grudge was one of the scariest movies I'd ever seen in my LIFE. And it was PG13. Amnityville Horror was NOTHING compared to Grudge. *shiver*


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bigeyes* 
I can't get over how many people don't check.

It kind of blows my mind, too.

Quote:

There are also a lot of children who have nightmares from stuff I might consider relatively mild.
See, in this, I'm one of those children, and ds1 is you! Things just don't faze him. I, otoh, can_not_ watch horror movies, and have to avoid a few scenes, even in movies I like (the airplane prop in Raiders of the Lost Ark - and the bugs - Shelob, from LOTR, many others, although I can't think of them right now). I don't get nightmares, but do get...sort of like nighttime anxiety attacks, and then I can't get to sleep worth crap. I have enough trouble with insomnia without inviting even more of it, yk?

Quote:

Dsd couldn't watch things at 9 Ds watched at 7. I'd like to know those things _before_ I traumatize someone else's kid, not _after._
_
_
_
Yeah. I upset my nephew when he was about 7, when I showed them The Labyrinth. I thought he'd be okay, but he had a new baby brother and was really upset during the baby-napping scene. He and I had a long talk about it, and he did decide to watch it again...but only after I'd assured him that the baby did not get hurt. I think he wanted to see for himself._


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## Sailor (Jun 13, 2006)

I don't have kids, but I must admit, at age 13, I would have been LIVID if my parents checked my email/mail. It would have been, for me, an awful feeling. But, my family was always very big on privacy - yes, even for kids.

The other stuff - fine. But, why the email? I understand approving friends on, say, MSN chat and having control over that. But, reading personal emails? What is the logic behind that?

To me, it's like reading someone's journal or going through their room to see what they're hiding. Doesn't seem like a good way to foster trust.


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## ChampagneBlossom (Feb 5, 2009)

My parents were the super monitoring kind. I feel to this day that by the time I was 17 or so I was as mature as I am today. I "grew up" into an adult at that point. Not to say I had all the life experience that I do now (and heck, I still don't have ALL that much, considering I'm not even 30) but I don't feel that being so strictly controlled by parents is healthy. I didn't feel respected at all.

I didn't exactly end up rebelling, but when I did start saying "whatever, I'll just do my own thing" when I was 18-19 my mother especially freaked out and said I was rejecting her etc. It's really hard to put into words what I'm getting at. I was really angry for a long time about how I was held back for, what I see now as no good reason. I wasn't "kept innocent" in any way, I just had a million roadblocks thrown against me by my parents. Who, I'm sure, simply meant well.

My mom would accuse me of doing drugs when I never had, of having sex, of drinking... she had "proof" of all these things but it was ridiculous because I never did them!

I talked with my mother about this lately and she admits that she wishes she had trusted me more and not tried so hard to keep me protected and innocent. It really ruined our relationship for so many years that she had to be this angry enforcer and I had to "rebel" even though I never had it in me. I never wanted to get them angry or hurt them; I just wanted to figure life out. Is that so bad?

Bad things DID happen to me, but they did even though I had over controlling parents. And I don't really regret them because I had a pretty good head on my shoulders and what doesn't kill ya makes you stronger, right? (Said with a grain of salt of course.)

I met this girl in college who had a mother that was "like her best friend" - I rolled my eyes at this but really and truly, I overheard her talking to her mom about what an awesome hook up she had while really high on drugs. And the mom was like "I hope you used a condom" and I was just really surprised that people could have that sort of relationship with their parents. That's the opposite end of the spectrum. I wouldn't choose that one either as my parenting style, but possibly, hopefully a nice medium.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sailor* 
I don't have kids, but I must admit, at age 13, I would have been LIVID if my parents checked my email/mail. It would have been, for me, an awful feeling. But, my family was always very big on privacy - yes, even for kids.

The other stuff - fine. But, why the email? I understand approving friends on, say, MSN chat and having control over that. But, reading personal emails? What is the logic behind that?

To me, it's like reading someone's journal or going through their room to see what they're hiding. Doesn't seem like a good way to foster trust.

umm, I suppose this will come out sounding curt...but seriously? Emails are not just like a journal. They are permanent public messages that can be read and sent by anyone.


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## 1growingsprout (Nov 14, 2005)

Funny you should mention the email and face book. My neighbor tried the same thing with her DS (12), monitoring the childs email and not allowing websites and such. Her DS went to the library or another friends house set up another email account and opened up myspace/facebook and whatever else he wanted to do. The mom was oblivious for months. That child only accessed those accounts from someplace other than his home. Once the mom found out what her DS had done she tried to make him cancel the accounts he said fine, i can just go and do it again. Its very sad but there is no trust in that house between that child and parent. All because the mom kept saying no and wouldnt give an inch. That child is now 14 and heck-bent on getting out of there asap.
Im not saying that your son will put 2 and 2 together and figure out he can open email accounts etc. from someplace else...
But what happens when he is at 'tommy's house' and they decide to watch XYZ movie? etc


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## Lisa85 (May 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 
umm, I suppose this will come out sounding curt...but seriously? Emails are not just like a journal. They are permanent public messages that can be read and sent by anyone.

Not to mention the sending AND receiving part. Kids can receive emails from anyone, with or without the owner's consent. We _did_ have email and IM and all that when I was teen - 12 or 13 I think - and I'm 24 now. And I have to wonder what in the hell my parents were thinking. If they just didn't understand the technology of it, didn't think it was problem, or it never occurred to them that it could be dangerous and inappropriate. The worst of it for me at that age was the chat rooms. Complete random strangers I was talking to and they thought nothing of it. I even had a "cyber boyfriend" for a time and yes we had "cyber sex". No pictures or anything of the sort exchanged, but still, not something I needed to be talking about at 13. Would they read snail mail letters? Of course not. Because inherently there is more control over that. You don't look up a random person and send them a letter. But people do with email. If your kid got a random snail mail letter from somebody you didn't know, and your kid didn't have a good explanation - would you not read it? Would you let them send snail mail letters to people they didn't know? Of course not.


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa85* 
Not to mention the sending AND receiving part. Kids can receive emails from anyone, with or without the owner's consent. We _did_ have email and IM and all that when I was teen - 12 or 13 I think - and I'm 24 now. And I have to wonder what in the hell my parents were thinking. If they just didn't understand the technology of it, didn't think it was problem, or it never occurred to them that it could be dangerous and inappropriate. The worst of it for me at that age was the chat rooms. Complete random strangers I was talking to and they thought nothing of it. I even had a "cyber boyfriend" for a time and yes we had "cyber sex". No pictures or anything of the sort exchanged, but still, not something I needed to be talking about at 13. Would they read snail mail letters? Of course not. Because inherently there is more control over that. You don't look up a random person and send them a letter. But people do with email. If your kid got a random snail mail letter from somebody you didn't know, and your kid didn't have a good explanation - would you not read it? Would you let them send snail mail letters to people they didn't know? Of course not.

Ummm. But there's ample programs, free and not, that will screen email and 'net access for inappropriate content. So it's not necessary to hover.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
It kind of blows my mind, too.

See, in this, I'm one of those children, and ds1 is you! Things just don't faze him. I, otoh, can_not_ watch horror movies, and have to avoid a few scenes, even in movies I like (the airplane prop in Raiders of the Lost Ark - and the bugs - Shelob, from LOTR, many others, although I can't think of them right now). I don't get nightmares, but do get...sort of like nighttime anxiety attacks, and then I can't get to sleep worth crap. I have enough trouble with insomnia without inviting even more of it, yk?

Yeah. I upset my nephew when he was about 7, when I showed them The Labyrinth. I thought he'd be okay, but he had a new baby brother and was really upset during the baby-napping scene. He and I had a long talk about it, and he did decide to watch it again...but only after I'd assured him that the baby did _not_ get hurt. I think he wanted to see for himself.

exactly. You have to pay attention to the individual. I know quite a few adults who don't like scary movies. OTOH, I can remember watching psycho when I was about 8.


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## mrsfrenchy (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sailor* 
I don't have kids, but I must admit, at age 13, I would have been LIVID if my parents checked my email/mail. It would have been, for me, an awful feeling. But, my family was always very big on privacy - yes, even for kids.

The other stuff - fine. But, why the email? I understand approving friends on, say, MSN chat and having control over that. But, reading personal emails? What is the logic behind that?

To me, it's like reading someone's journal or going through their room to see what they're hiding. Doesn't seem like a good way to foster trust.

My parents were this way. They listened in on calls, tried to read my emails, hover over me while IMing, went through my room, "accidentally" picked up the phone while I was talking. They did this all before I _ever_ violated their trust. They just _didn't_ trust me from the beginning. So when the opportunity presented itself to chose to do something they wouldn't want me to do--I didn't care. I didn't have their trust in the first place, so I didn't have to worry about "breaking" it.

I also never felt safe in their house. I mean, safe in the physical sense, yes. But safe to express myself and my opinions? safe to have my own (innocent) interests? nope.

I left when I was 17. We're ok now, but it was tough for a while.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1growingsprout* 
Funny you should mention the email and face book. My neighbor tried the same thing with her DS (12), monitoring the childs email and not allowing websites and such. Her DS went to the library or another friends house set up another email account and opened up myspace/facebook and whatever else he wanted to do. The mom was oblivious for months. That child only accessed those accounts from someplace other than his home. Once the mom found out what her DS had done she tried to make him cancel the accounts he said fine, i can just go and do it again. Its very sad but there is no trust in that house between that child and parent. All because the mom kept saying no and wouldnt give an inch. That child is now 14 and heck-bent on getting out of there asap.
Im not saying that your son will put 2 and 2 together and figure out he can open email accounts etc. from someplace else...
But what happens when he is at 'tommy's house' and they decide to watch XYZ movie? etc

I totally would've done this. ...oh wait...I did.

I know you're trying to protect your son, but my humble advice (as, admittedly, the mother of an 8 month old







) is to get some parental controls. Get your own facebook so you can be his friend (and therefore see his profile) and keep your computer in a public area of the house.

You have to becareful how tightly you hold teenagers (I say this as a 21 year old, the feelings are fresh in my mind). Even if it is for their own good, holding them tightly can just push them away quickly.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sailor* 
I don't have kids, but I must admit, at age 13, I would have been LIVID if my parents checked my email/mail. It would have been, for me, an awful feeling. But, my family was always very big on privacy - yes, even for kids.

The other stuff - fine. But, why the email? I understand approving friends on, say, MSN chat and having control over that. But, reading personal emails? What is the logic behind that?

To me, it's like reading someone's journal or going through their room to see what they're hiding. Doesn't seem like a good way to foster trust.

We police dsd's email because of some issues in the past, but I truly hope by the time she's 13 we don't have to. I'm hoping it's no longer necessary by then. She e-stalked an older boy and has had some problems with inappropriate contact with older boys that concerned us, and our therapist agreed we'd be crazy not to keep an eye on her online activity. She also had a couple of friends who were starting to bully her via email and when they realized we were reading what they wrote it stopped abruptly.

I wouldn't feel bad about checking a myspace page, though. I hope they don't have them at all, considering the way some adults have had their myspace pages come back to haunt them.

We've seen major improvements, so hopefully we'll be able to check up on her less often in the next year or so, but I'd do it again in a heartbeat if the same situation occurred.


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## bramblevine (Mar 10, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fek&fuzz* 
My mom told me "If you are at a party and there is beer, you can always take one and just nurse it. No one will know. You can also just pour out the can in the bathroom and fill it with water if you want."

Your mom is my hero.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I have to admit, when Rain was 13 I never would have considered asking one of her friends if she was allowed to watch a certain movie... in my world, 13 year olds are competent to know what movies that want to watch or are permitted to watch, and I don't see ensuring that as my job. Of course, I think that was the year that Clockwork Orange was Rain's favorite movie (I never watched it because the bit I did see really disturbed me, but she owns it, as well as many other Kubrick films).

For us, it has worked well to support my child in making her own decisions about media (and email, and myspace, and all that). When I've had concerns we've talked about them and found solutions, but by and large I've found that she's pretty good at finding her own limits, and she's comfortable talking with me about most problems she's had. I think both of those are huge, and I would want to parent in a way that supported these traits. I think I have... YMMV.

Dar


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

If someone wants to show my 6 or 7 year old with emotional/relationship issues an R rated movie, which was what happened in our situation, he!! yes they had better ask so I can say no, since they obviously don't have any judgment when it comes to that sort of thing.







:

Some might not think someone has to ask me to show a 13 year old a PG-13 movie, but it might be considerate since the whole point of that PG is _parental guidance._

When they're 15 or so, we'll have to see. I can't say, since mine aren't anywhere near that age.









If there's no point to the ratings system, why not just show the little kiddies porn, then? _Because it isn't appropriate._ I would no more let a 13 year old decide to watch porn than I would let a 7 year old decide to watch an R rated movie.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I think Rocky Horror might be R, and that was one of Rain's favorites when she was 7... but I would check with a parent before letting another kid watch it with her, because a 7 year old is a child. The OP was talking about her 13 year old, though.

I see the MPAA ratings as another tool we can use to help find movies we'll enjoy watching, albeit not a very useful one. I definitely don't see them as the arbiter of what's right for my child - my child and I determine that ourselves.

I have never met a little kid who wanted to watch porn, whether it was rated G or X, so I don't see how the rating system changes anything. Maybe some 13 year olds would want to watch something fairly mild, but I think most wouldn't...

Dar


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## Lisa85 (May 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
Ummm. But there's ample programs, free and not, that will screen email and 'net access for inappropriate content. So it's not necessary to hover.

Right, but they can be horribly inaccurate.

It all depends on the child, but to put a parental block on the computer or what not and call it good is a false sense of security. All kids in my house will have their online activity monitored, as I believe all kids should. How much, totally depends on the kid. At 5, every last bit of it will be monitored. By 10, hopefully just occasionally checking in on email and approving IM conversations, and at 16 a facebook friend. But that all depends on them.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *robin4kids* 

One person said that they think that if i shelter my child too much, they might go crazy when they are older and i am not around. Kids can't drink till they are 21 and some do go crazy when they are finally allowed, but not for long. I am sheltering him from violence and sexual content. The worst that could happen is he could decide to watch every movie we forbid.









.

I just saw this from teh main page, and I wanted to say that this is NOT the worst that could happen. I didnt' read all teh replies, but I grew up with parents who were similarly strict (more so than you, i think but similar) and it alienated me from my peers. To this day I cannot name 5 peoplle from my childhood with whom i am close. When they went to the movies, I had to stay home because the movie was pg-13, or it ended at 9 PM, or or or. It was very frustrating and led to a lot of resentment on my part.

I am not saying to just let your ds do whateve eh wants, but rather to please listen to what he is saying and take him seriosuly. i know psoters here say that every kid uses the "so and so's mom lets him" line and that is true, but it could be that your ds feels left out because more and more, your restrictions are holding him back socially. Those restrictions,and constant monitoring and general "babying" for lack of a better word, left me feeling helpless and trapped, and I did indeed run out the door without looking back when I turned 18. i was married to an abuser by 19 and am STILL reeling from THAT decision.

Please don't ignore your ds, is all I'm saying. Give him the benefit of the doubt that he knows what he can ahndle (not compeltely, but just a little) It can feel overwhelming an smothering to have a parent who CONSTANTLY keeps tabs on everything you do and is stillholdingall teh control as a teenager.


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## Sailor (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 
umm, I suppose this will come out sounding curt...but seriously? Emails are not just like a journal. They are permanent public messages that can be read and sent by anyone.

Well, I meant more in the sense that you share the emails with the people you choose. Just like you can show your journal to the people you choose.

Now, yes, those people might forward your email to millions. And that's their prerogative based on their own ethics. But, ultimately, if two people are having an email correspondence, I personally consider that private, until they decide to forward their email to however many people they want. While anyone can hack it, and read, I have my doubts that hackers are really sitting around digesting emails of teens.

I guess I just grew up in a very lenient household, so I'm always shocked by the strictness of some households. My family pretty much let me be from puberty onwards. In my family, puberty is the beginning of independence. I could always come to them, with anything. But, their premise was that, until I broke their trust, I was treated as any other adult in the house. Which means no monitoring of emails (or anything else, lol).

While I know weird/scary stuff happens online ... I gotta say, age 13, was NOT that long ago for me. I STILL remember what it was like to be 13, what I thought, what I felt ... and I was not naive. I knew there were predators out there, and I never spoke to anyone online unless I knew them personally. In chat rooms, I had random people try to strike up a conversation, and I just ignored them. I didn't need a parent or monitoring program keep me from this. I read the news - weirdos abounded, and I didn't want to end up as another news story. I actually remember, at age 13, telling my friend who had aol and would chat with random people that she'd wind up as a statistic if she kept that up.

I realize not all kids are so aware at 13 ... but, surely, in this day and age, most are!


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## goldingoddess (Jan 5, 2008)

I think you are being very strict with your 13 year old.

He will rebel in every way he can if you do not give him space and let him set some of his own boundaries.

If you were my parent I would freak out too.

Not long ago we were living more uncivilized lives and 13 year old boys were certainly exposed to sex, violence, birth, death, all that good stuff. Violence is important for boys it helps them connect with their warrior self.

Your son will probably be trying drugs and having sex in the next few years anyways, are you sure you want to alienate him so much right now? because chances are he won't come to you when he needs advising.


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## Novella (Nov 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *robin4kids* 
We were told by of 13 y/o son that we are the strictest parents and he hates us for it







My dh is proud of this new label. I on the other hand hate it. I am not saying that I want to give in to my ds's demands, but I wish our friends would stop giving in to their kids' demands.

We don't feel like we are THAT strict. We let ds stay home by himself while we go to the store. He sometimes watches his younger siblings for short times and we pay him. We live in the city, but let him take walks by himself. The things we just won't give in to are movies and shows and video games we find inappropriate for a boy his age. We limit the tv he can watch and only allow hand held games in our house. (these can only be played on the weekends) Oh and no cell phone or face book page. He has an email account, which we monitor.

I dunno'. I'm probably projecting a lot of my own childhood onto this, but. . .

You sound like pretty uptight, authoritative parents to me. The kind who drive a wedge between themselves and their child. The kind who have a suffering relationship years afterwards.

It's so nice to hear that you "let him" do fun stuff like stay home without a parent while you go to the store or to babysit his siblings. Wow! That's awesome.

I hope this doesn't sound overly harsh, but the things you allow him to do seemed pretty clearly divided as "ho-hum" versus all the fun stuff you don't allow him to do, or allow with many restrictions.

Here's a quick summary of my growing up. Maybe you'll see some parallels.

Introverted, polite, straight-A student.
Oldest in family = lots of jobs and responsibility on the farm, "breaking ground" with parents regarding social requests.
Never ever drank a drop of alcohol as a teen. Never tried cigarettes or any drugs. Ever.
Wanted to do really insane stuff like attend the occasional party, or maybe once or twice in my life go in to the town's theatre to see the movie and hang-out.
Stonewalled at every turn: "Oh, it's not you we don't trust, it's the other people." and "You can go to parties when you are 18-19 and live on your own". Seriously?! Even at the time, I knew I probably would be far less interested in parties by age 18-19.
Everything was a fight, all the time. Everything was about control. I felt like their possession.
I did not live at home (by mutual consent) during my Grade 12 year.
I spent many teenage years fantasizing, planning, and expecting that once graduated I would establish in a distant city, find a partner there, and literally never have contact with my immediate family again.
It is not an exaggeration when I say that the _only_ reason this did not play out is that I married a local.
Over the last 8-10 years we have come around to a semi-uncomfortable truce. But I could never say that I "love" my parents. I still think they were stupid and wrong in so many, many ways - even more-so now that I am a parent. I am in my mid-30s and the feelings of isolation and hate are burned in my memory forever.
I think a lot of this variety of "strict" parents live in some sort of disillusion that they will in future be thanked by a loving child who now "gets it" and holds them on a pedestal for taking the "high ground" and giving the "tough love".

Some of your rules also reminded me of an aunt/uncle and their two boys. When kids in our family lusted after joining other seemingly-happy families, that was the only relative where we thought, "Oh, never _them_!" Their son cut off all contact for about 10 years as a young adult. It is due only to his brother's marriage that he is back in their lives at all.

Your comments about wishing your friends would stop giving in to their kids demands and your husband being proud of the new title are really telling to me. I really see a lot of the same us-them attitude I saw in my own parents (hopefully not the airs of superiority that went along with it at our house). You may imagine that I am a loosey-goosey, permissive parent in contrast. Certainly, I am not. But it just looks to me like the things you are banning are almost for no other purpose than being controlling and mean. It's not like your son is skipping school, getting drunk regularly, vandalizing property, stealing cars, and getting girls knocked up. Sounds to me like his desires are extremely reasonable.

I am sure you are distraught about the situation and I hope my comments haven't been hurtful. But I really think you are setting the stage to drive your son away for decades, if not permanently. I wish you good luck in establishing more common ground with your son.


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## enkmom (Aug 30, 2004)

I could have written several of the last posts. My parents NEVER trusted me to make my own decisions, and tried to control everything I did. They "accidentally" opened letters and diaries (and read them). They "cleaned" my room and confronted me with the evidence of my wrongdoing (a candy wrapper). Once I even caught my mother going through my purse. She insisted that she could, because I was just a child and I lived in her home. I can't begin to describe what it was like growing up constantly under suspicion - and I was a good kid!

I had no friends outside of school hours because I wasn't allowed to see movies that weren't rated G until I was 15! years old, and my curfew was 10PM until I was a junior in high school. Friends eventually stopped asking me to do anything, because it was hurtful to both of us when I had to say no. The issue was that my parents refused to believe that I wasn't 10 anymore, and never gave me any chance to explore. I entered the adult world extremely naive, and have the lumps to prove it.

For my own children, we worked on a basis of trust from the get-go. At 13 they had myspace pages, but our computer was in the dining room, where anyone could walk by and glance at it. They were allowed out one evening each weekend - usually to a basketball game or a movie, and then a walk across the street to McDonald's with a group of friends. They had cell phones at 14, and knew the limits on them. They answered every time I called. They had no interest in video games. If they wanted to see an R rated movie, my husband took them and any of their friends whose parents gave permission. We did not show questionable DVD's at home if other kids were there. Neither of my kids ever acted out or was frightened about something they had seen. I have never read their e-mails, but I would imagine there was lots of grousing about how WE were the strictest parents in town!


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## tallulahma (Jun 16, 2006)

i have to say that I grew up with a mother who was "strict" and "controlling" about everything.

I started lying very young, and by the time I was 13??? geez

the average 13 year old girl in 1993 was "trying" pot, drinking at their friends house, and gettin felt up by other 13 year old boys.... in a pretty "well-off" community in a large city.

now? I have 21 year old niece and nephew and an 18 year old nephew... and a 13 year old niece... and a 11 year old nephew.... and I can tell you- that your son probably does dislike you quite a bit.

the fact that you are still choosing his movies and video games doesnt speak at all about him or his needs... it speaks to your insecurities.

You raised him, at this age- he is going to make the decisions that he is going to make... he will figure out a way to make them regardless of your interventions. Let him become a man. Let him choose for himself. YOu know why he wouldnt admit he was scared at hte movie IT???? BECAUSE HE WAS TRYING TO PROVE TO YOU HE COULD HANDLE IT!

If he were learning to trust his own instincts- he mightve turned it off. But you have him on such a short leash~ do you think he would admit fear so you could say I told you so and continue to limit and ban his exposure?

LIke I said, my mother probably couldve written your post... including the "why do other parents give in" bit.

Im 28, have two children and live 2500 miles away from her and havent spoken with her in a year.

Because- she never stopped being strict. But I became an adult... and then she COULDNT control me anymore.

You do not want this relationship with your son.

Honor his emotions, honor his privacy.

tell him your fears. be honest and open.

At 13..... I was an honor student, I was never home past curfew, I wasnt allowed to watch tv anywhere but in the main living room, I read books that my mom suggested, discussed politics with my stepdads friends at their fancy parties.... I was a really really "good kid".... I was ALSO smoking pot, drinking every second I was able and making out with guys on the back of the bus on the way home...

just try to be easier on your son, and your self. Im sure you did a good job raising him- it is time to see how he handles himself, no?


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## because why not? (Feb 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *robin4kids* 
I think what parents need to remember now is that when they were 13, there was not the same level of technology. Movies were not as graphic. There was no facebook, or email. So yes we could all sit back and let our kids watch whatever they want, play whatever game they pleased.

The movie you mention, IT, was on TV when I was your son's age. Movies were every bit as graphic as they are now. True enough about the Facebook/cellphones, etc, but video games, music, and television weren't all cotton candy sweet and fluffy.

Yeah, kids will always use the "so-and-so's mom lets him..." excuse, but so will parents always lean on the "things aren't the way they used to be" nonsense. The world has NEVER been a safe place, and it never will be.

Quote:

The worst that could happen is he could decide to watch every movie we forbid.









No, the worst thing is that he will rebel, turn on you, turn on your values, and take off from your house like a bat out of hell years before he's ready. You don't come across as strict, to me. You come across as smothering. I actually said the words OH MY GOD out loud while reading your OP. You said that you leave him alone when you go to the store, as evidence that you're not over-protective? I'm not trying to attack you, but that just blows me away.

Children NEED some independence in order to develop identity. You have two duties as a mother: to help your child to develop into his best self, and to keep him safe while he's doing so. The older the child gets, the more the scale needs to tip in the direction of helping to foster that identity. As hard as it is, you can't protect him like a baby anymore. If he only gets a few minutes to himself here and there, he's going to be forced to shove you away, and if you fight to hold him tight, you're going to have some seriously miserable years ahead of you... and the relationship might never recover.

By all means, limit his technology... but give him some space! At 13, does a guy really need Mommy hovering about while he watches a movie, measuring his reactions? And when his friend was over, no less? How mortifying.


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## suabel (May 24, 2005)

Wow. I think many of you are giving the OP some pretty harsh predictions. I don't think giving thoughtful, evolving boundaries means that your child will grow up alienated from you. My oldest dd and I talk frequently about what she wants and what I feel she's ready for. Things are negotionable...I totally recognize that she's maturing and is becoming ready for more independence. I do reserve the right to read her email. I haven't in over a year, but I retain the password. She's still a child, learning to navigate the internet and all of its implications. She hasn't needed a cell phone yet, nor could we afford one for her. Now that she's walking and riding her bike to friends' homes, I'm ready to invest in one for emergency use only. If she chooses to need more minutes or texting in the future, she can pay for that from a part-time job. I pass no judgement on other parents' decisions but I also hope that they respect mine. FWIW, I grew up with FAR stricter parents than my husband and I are, and while I did have the normal teenaged angst for awhile, I grew up to have a loving relationship with both of my parents. I respect that they did what they thought was best, even if it wasn't 100% what I would choose as a parent myself.


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## chiromamma (Feb 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
Ummm. But there's ample programs, free and not, that will screen email and 'net access for inappropriate content. So it's not necessary to hover.

Honestly, I have found that honest and frank technology education has been invaluable. I have taught my kids about internet predators, what cyber bullying is and now this whole thing with child porn charges when kids send naked pix of themselves via cell phones.
Technology is a reality for kids. I feel it's best to utilize it in a positive way rather than shun or over regulate. Eventually, a kid has got to self-regulate.
Also, with facebook, I ask my kids to make sure they would be OK with their beloved grandma and grandpa reading what they post.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

OP....I doubt you are the strictest parent in the world.

My son says that about me on occasion (ususally to his friends - I think they like to one up each other about who has the strictest parents) and I am so _not_ the strictest, lol.

I think many families have their limits. There are things I limit that I know other parents do not - and vice versa. I remind myself of the things he does have a fair bit of freedom with when he sings the "you are strict" song.

I don't dismiss what he say and I do try to think critically and objectively about what he wants - but I don't feel guilt over reasonable boundaries.

As per IM - whether I would allow it would depend on other factors. Does he have issues with bullying? Does he have a good head on his shoulders? If the answers are no to bullying and yes to "good head on his shoulders" - I would probably allow it (and yes, he could do it anyways at a friend or the library). He is going to do it eventually - it might be a good opportunty for you to offer guidance in safe internet practices.

Kathy


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## ChampagneBlossom (Feb 5, 2009)

Also, I just wanted to come back here an add one more anecdote. We lived out in the middle of nowhere. The school bus came along and I had to cross the street to get to it. I was maybe 12? My mom didn't want to let me cross the street so she had them come around and make a loop so I could get on at our side of the street. Mind you, this street was flat, good visibility in both directions, a country lane. A car came maybe every half an hour. I didn't have headphones or anything on. You think I could scurry across, right? No. The bus had to make a two mile detour to come around, and every day we would be late for school (the entire bus) and the twitchy bus driver always blamed it on me, on the "baby whose mommy won't let him cross the street by herself." And there was no END to the bullying I got for that. The eighth graders were all SO mad because every day they would get a lunch detention (school policy) - it was ridiculous. I used to get so nervous that I would start throwing up on the bus in the mornings - yup, more bullying ensued. It was nightmarish. And when I begged, pleaded, cried to my mother to LET me CROSS the dang street... She laughed at me and said she was the mother and I was just the kid. That she "knew" I was lost in my own world (her words) and I couldn't be trusted to LOOK to see if there was a car coming. OMG. You could HEAR a car half a mile away there! But, no.. apparently I was too lost in my own world. She "knew" this about me. Yeah right.

I also had my privacy invaded constantly etc, like the previous posters... journals read, purses rummaged through, room "cleaned" - and I never did anything "bad" even in secret. It was just, ugh. Come on.


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## suabel (May 24, 2005)

Just pointing out...I think there's a huge difference between reserving the right to monitor your young teen's (we are talking a 13-year-old here, not an 18-year-old) internet usage and rummaging through purses and reading journals. Further, I would hope that any reasonable parent would hear a child's plea of avoiding bullying and work for a solution satisfying to all. Again, deciding that your child isn't quite ready for the responsibility of Facebook isn't really comparable to not allowing a middle schooler to cross the street.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChampagneBlossom* 
My mom would accuse me of doing drugs when I never had, of having sex, of drinking... she had "proof" of all these things but it was ridiculous because I never did them!









Been there, experienced that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goldingoddess* 
I think you are being very strict with your 13 year old.

He will rebel in every way he can if you do not give him space and let him set some of his own boundaries.

If you were my parent I would freak out too.

Not long ago we were living more uncivilized lives and 13 year old boys were certainly exposed to sex, violence, birth, death, all that good stuff. Violence is important for boys it helps them connect with their warrior self.

Your son will probably be trying drugs and having sex in the next few years anyways, are you sure you want to alienate him so much right now? because chances are he won't come to you when he needs advising.

Agreed that it's important for boys to connect with their 'warrior self'.







I like that term.

But I strenuously disagree that anyone's son will 'probably' be trying drugs and having sex in the next few years anyway.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fek&fuzz* 
If he were writing letters to someone would you read the ones he sent and received? Do you pick up the phone so you can listen to what is happening on the other end of his phone calls? Do you sit with him and his friends so you can hear what they are talking about when they are around?

It sounds like he might need a little privacy.

My mother did all of the above up to when I left home at 18. Our relationship has never recovered from it. I will NEVER violate my daughters' privacy in that way under the guise of "protecting" them.


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## BedHead (Mar 8, 2007)

I have to agree that things seem rather strict. I don't parent that way. And it certainly is possible that being so strict will drive (or has already driven) a wedge into the relationship. I hope that doesn't happen, though, because you, OP, sound like a loving, caring parent who wants what is best for your kids.

FWIW, my kids also tell me I am much too strict. My 15 yo daughter has no curfew, schools herself at home, has unlimited internet access (unsupervised), her own cell phone with no restrictions, doesn't have to do chores if she doesn't want to, watches whatever she wants on TV, cuts and dyes her own hair whatever way she wants, pierced her own lip, eats what she wants to when she wants to eat it, etc etc. and she STILL tells me I'm too strict.


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## StoriesInTheSoil (May 8, 2008)

I think some of the responses I've read are ridiculous. Having moral values and parenting principles does NOT make you authoritative and does NOT mean your child will grow up to rebel against you, become a heroin addict and live in a cardboard box.

My parents were an interesting combination of overbearingly strict and ridiculously lenient. By the time I was 15 I had come across things online that damaged me for life. Having been allowed to choose my own films from about 11 on, I often chose dark comedies that I enjoy to this day. Whether they were approprite is something I'm still figuring out. I also chose scary and violent films that I watched with my friends and was and still am traumatized by the content. Our grandparents NEVER watched those kinds of films, why are they so prevalent now? Who NEEDS to watch people being sawed to bits or forced to amputate their legs or children being brutally killed? No one. And for sure not impressionable 13 year olds.

My two cents from having two 13-year-old siblings is that internet culture is prevalent and your child will likely sneak online. Knowing that their parent cares enough to set boundaries and ATTEMPT to enforce them is enough to help them not feel completely vulnerable though, typically. My parents giving me unquestioned internet access for unlimited amounts of time made me great at first and then, when I was damaged, it made me feel like they didn't care enough to protect me when I was hurt so badly. That wasn't true and I know now that they just had no idea what I could find out there.

People are talking about listening in on phone calls and reading notes and letters from friends which I think is extreme and almost never necessary but that is not what you were talking about in the original post. Everything that you mentioned, OP, seems 100% reasonable to me, a very recent teenager.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *robin4kids* 
I think what parents need to remember now is that when they were 13, there was not the same level of technology. Movies were not as graphic. There was no facebook, or email. So yes we could all sit back and let our kids watch whatever they want, play whatever game they pleased.I however am confident that my children will try their best when they are on their own to make the best decisions, but I know there will be some mistakes. I think it is our job as adults to shield our kids till they are mature enough to handle things on their own.

When were you 13?

The year I was 13, IT (referenced above) was released on television. And I watched it, while I was babysitting. I was 13 in 1990, and I remember some quite graphic television and movies being available. What I remember about IT was that I found the movie so disjointed that I went and took the book out from the library to figure out the movie. I don't think that either watching IT or reading the book scarred me in any way.

No, there was no facebook or email. There were BBSs, which I was on . . . with my extremely slow modem . . . and in some ways there was fewer protection for kids on BBSs than on the Internet nowadays.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

The more I think about it the more I am convinced it is not the rules (or lack of them per se) that is important - it is the intent, and relationships.

You may think it is Ok for most 13 year olds to watch Saw - I may not.

Last time I checked there was no rule book on who is right in these situations(and if you have one, can you loan it to me, please!?!







)

What I do think matter is that you parent intentionally.

EX: let child watch saw because you genuinely believe a 13 year is capable of handling it, watch it with them, ask them about it, help them determine if this is something they find entertaining _versus_ let them watch it because you can't be botherred parenting them

ex: do not let child watch saw. Explain reasons as much as necessary. Let them know you love them, you get that they do not agree with you, but the decision is coming from a place of concern. Offer alternatives to Saw. Talk about when and under what circumstances Saw might be allowed. _versus_ do not let the watch Saw "because it is my house and I said so". Come off as controlling.

I think if adult children understand that parents had their best intentions growing up and made informed decsions to the best of ability, even if they made mistakes, they will forgive us


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
The more I think about it the more I am convinced it is not the rules (or lack of them per se) that is important - it is the intent, and relationships.

You may think it is Ok for most 13 year olds to watch Saw - I may not.

Last time I checked there was no rule book on who is right in these situations(and if you have one, can you loan it to me, please!?!







)

What I do think matter is that you parent intentionally.

EX: let child watch saw because you genuinely believe a 13 year is capable of handling it, watch it with them, ask them about it, help them determine if this is something they find entertaining _versus_ let them watch it because you can't be botherred parenting them

ex: do not let child watch saw. Explain reasons as much as necessary. Let them know you love them, you get that they do not agree with you, but the decision is coming from a place of concern. Offer alternatives to Saw. Talk about when and under what circumstances Saw might be allowed. _versus_ do not let the watch Saw "because it is my house and I said so". Come off as controlling.

I think if adult children understand that parents had their best intentions growing up and made informed decsions to the best of ability, even if they made mistakes, they will forgive us









I love your post, I was just thinking something along the same lines, but just could not figure out how to word it







thanks!

But also it's about power and control, it's hard for us to let it go, and it's what they need for a smooth transition.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cherie2* 
I love your post, I was just thinking something along the same lines, but just could not figure out how to word it







thanks!

But also it's about power and control, it's hard for us to let it go, and it's what they need for a smooth transition.

They do need us to let go. It is the ultimate goal after all - happy, healthy self-functioning adults.

I try to slowly let go. I do not think we do anyone any favours (and I am _not_ saying anyone in specific is doing this) by letting go all at once when they turn 18. It is also important to listen to kids when they say they can handle more - it helps them to build confidence, and I think most of them thrive in knowing we trust them.

kathy


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Good post, Kathy.


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## flowers (Apr 8, 2004)

First I want to give a hug to the op b/c dang this is hard and there are some really intense responses.

I was raised very similarly to how you are raising your son and wow those were tough years. The thing that killed me was that I was a good kid! Then I became so angry with them and I felt so alienated from my peer group that i did start lying and then the cycle started. My friends who could sleep out wanted to go home to sleep in their own beds. All I wanted to do was stay out and party. I felt like I was missing out to the 'enth degree and I felt tortured. Yes that can be normal teenage feelings was that when I told my parents how they felt they poo-poo'd me telling me that was what being a teenager was all about. It was supposed to be full of angst. I was home last weekend and my mother just brought up how bad all of our relationships became. It got ugly....really ugly and took years and years for us to find common ground. They were just so condescending to me as a teen, like my feelings/ideas were important, valid or valuable b/c I was a kid and they were the parents. It was very disempowering. I am not saying this is what you are doing, but maybe you can move forward with an awareness of keeping respectful of his needs as he grows.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
Can I make a few gentle suggestions? My two oldest kids are 18 and 15, and I remember having the same feelings as you describe here, and the same conversations. If I were to look back and do things a little differently (which I can do with The Littles) it'd be to do this:

Sit down and encourage your son to talk about this while you listen. Really listen. He's 13. He wants to feel like 'being a teenager' really matters for something. He wants to feel like he has some control over his life. So REALLY listen to him. Don't just pacify his frustration while you wait to justify your rules and restrictions, but take a few notes on what he is saying and wanting to change. Let him know you'll look over and consider his ideas. Then give it some genuine thought and a few days to chew it over. You might find that he's not wanting things that are totally unreasonable. Maybe he wants a later bedtime. Would it kill either you or him to allow it to be moved a bit? Probably not. Maybe he wants more freedom with media choices. What would be the harm in installing some protective software that blocks inappropriate (sex/violence) sites and backing off on the reading of the email? ITA w/the pp...I doubt you listen in on his phone calls, this is the same concept. As for Facebook, it's genuinely something TONS of 13yos have and use to communicate with one another, so what good is it accomplishing to forbid that specific thing? As for the cell phone, would you consider it if he pays for it himself?

I do understand and totally get the concept of wanting to shield them from the unpleasantness of this world. But he's growing up, and the fact that he's complaining means he's frustrated with the current state of things. I'm not suggesting you just wipe out all of your rules, but consider involving him in the process of making them. Getting him on board as a team player in the family NOW, as opposed to just a cast member, will pay dividends later down the road as he 'grows into' his personality and ambitions.

HTH mama, these teens are an adventure!









You sound like the best mom!























Quote:


Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy* 
I just saw this from teh main page, and I wanted to say that this is NOT the worst that could happen. I didnt' read all teh replies, but I grew up with parents who were similarly strict (more so than you, i think but similar) and it alienated me from my peers. To this day I cannot name 5 peoplle from my childhood with whom i am close. When they went to the movies, I had to stay home because the movie was pg-13, or it ended at 9 PM, or or or. It was very frustrating and led to a lot of resentment on my part.

I am not saying to just let your ds do whateve eh wants, but rather to please listen to what he is saying and take him seriosuly. i know psoters here say that every kid uses the "so and so's mom lets him" line and that is true, but it could be that your ds feels left out because more and more, your restrictions are holding him back socially. Those restrictions,and constant monitoring and general "babying" for lack of a better word, left me feeling helpless and trapped, and I did indeed run out the door without looking back when I turned 18. i was married to an abuser by 19 and am STILL reeling from THAT decision.

Please don't ignore your ds, is all I'm saying. Give him the benefit of the doubt that he knows what he can ahndle (not compeltely, but just a little) It can feel overwhelming an smothering to have a parent who CONSTANTLY keeps tabs on everything you do and is stillholdingall teh control as a teenager.

I really identified with your post.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sailor* 
I realize not all kids are so aware at 13 ... but, surely, in this day and age, most are!

Lots aren't. Even those who know it can happen often suffer from a very teenaged "it can't happen to _me_" mindset. We didn't have the net (heck, nobody had home computers!) when I was 13, but the "that only happens to other people" thing was very common. I didn't particularly have it, because I'm a chicken, but I knew lots of people who did. I know at least one 13 year old who has had the net for years, who absolutely sees it as completely benign, no matter what they learn in school.

re: emails & facebook. I know ds1's email password, but he could very well have other emails that he hasn't told me about. There is no possible way I could police that, even if I wanted to - he can access computers/the net at his school, at his friend's house, etc. I don't read his email, but he knows that I _can_. We set that up a couple of years ago, just in case I needed to check up on stuff (eg. he suddenly had some new friend I'd never heard of, who didn't go to his school, and wouldn't give me details - might check that out online, or the big one - if he went missing *gulp*). It's a security precaution, but I have no desire to eavesdrop on his conversations with his friends. I actually don't think I ever did get around to friending him on facebook. I may do that.

However, ds1 is 16 (today!), not 13. That does make a difference. I'm not sure what boundaries I'd have in place if he were 13.


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

It seems like there's a lot of mamas w/15-16yo teens, I posted a new post, kind of a spin off, about my situation. Would you mamas be able to go take a gander at it for me? Anyone else too, obviously, but I'd appreciate it great









/hijack


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar* 
I think Rocky Horror might be R, and that was one of Rain's favorites when she was 7... but I would check with a parent before letting another kid watch it with her, because a 7 year old is a child. The OP was talking about her 13 year old, though.

I see the MPAA ratings as another tool we can use to help find movies we'll enjoy watching, albeit not a very useful one. I definitely don't see them as the arbiter of what's right for my child - my child and I determine that ourselves.

I have never met a little kid who wanted to watch porn, whether it was rated G or X, so I don't see how the rating system changes anything. Maybe some 13 year olds would want to watch something fairly mild, but I think most wouldn't...

Dar

I agree, the ratings are not 100%, which is why we preview and decide for ourselves. We just watched Pineapple Express and personally I'm not comfortable with my 12 year old ds and 11 year old dsd watching it due to some of the dialogue and violence. I don't know about you, but I don't think my children need to hear some guy discussing eating a lollipop out of a stripper's orifices.







:

As to children watching porn, at my ds's daycare when he was 7 or 8, there was an incident with boys under 10 getting on the computer and surfing porn. And a male friend of mine had his entire stash of porn stolen by his landlord's pre-teens.

We discuss everything with our dcs as far as _why_ things are not appropriate, and how certain things become available as they mature. AFAIC, the quickest way to prove you're too immature to do something is to trot out the _everybody else is doing it_ argument or tell me I'm _not cool._


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## because why not? (Feb 20, 2009)

I just think it's so over the top that people are talking about SAW and... pornography? Seriously? The OP referenced a MADE FOR TELEVISION movie that came out in 1990, for goodness' sake.
But of course everyone's idea of what is/isn't graphic and disturbing is different. I get that. And, I understand the discomfort and fear with technology. It's something every family needs to grow into.

*But giving the kid almost no time alone is wrong. It's just wrong.*

I suppose what riled me up last night was the tone I got from the OP, who actually came across as smug, to me. As a PP said, intent means a LOT, and I may be projecting, but I read a somewhat self-satisfied tone. It's one that I grew up with. My parents were domineering, and when anyone complained or begged for some freedom, we were mocked. The bit about the husband enjoying the "strictest parent in the world" title was hard to swallow, because it's so dismissive of the son's feelings (which are quite real, and quite powerful, at the age of 13). As the conversation unfolded, it seemed to me that the OP was really just seeking validation, not conversation. I know some PP's have felt that the responses were harsh, but if you ask me the kid deserves the validation, here.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bigeyes* 
I agree, the ratings are not 100%, which is why we preview and decide for ourselves.

I find the parents guide on IMDB to be very useful, as well..._far_ more effective for me than the ratings systems.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *because why not?* 
I just think it's so over the top that people are talking about SAW and... pornography? Seriously? The OP referenced a MADE FOR TELEVISION movie that came out in 1990, for goodness' sake.
But of course everyone's idea of what is/isn't graphic and disturbing is different. I get that. And, I understand the discomfort and fear with technology. It's something every family needs to grow into.

*But giving the kid almost no time alone is wrong. It's just wrong.*

I suppose what riled me up last night was the tone I got from the OP, who actually came across as smug, to me. As a PP said, intent means a LOT, and I may be projecting, but I read a somewhat self-satisfied tone. It's one that I grew up with. My parents were domineering, and when anyone complained or begged for some freedom, we were mocked. The bit about the husband enjoying the "strictest parent in the world" title was hard to swallow, because it's so dismissive of the son's feelings (which are quite real, and quite powerful, at the age of 13). As the conversation unfolded, it seemed to me that the OP was really just seeking validation, not conversation. I know some PP's have felt that the responses were harsh, but if you ask me the kid deserves the validation, here.


I think there is a big difference between monitoring internet use and what type of movies your dcs watch and not giving your dcs any time alone.









Our dcs have pulled out the everyone else does this argument because we won't let them watch rated R movies, and they have tried to convince us we're _the strictest parents ever._ I don't believe we are, and I think the argument is designed to be manipulative. I'm not falling for it, nor do I think the OP is.







And if a made for television movie gives your 9 year old nightmares, then it was not appropriate for them to watch, was it? That's why we _parent._ My biggest objection to _It_ was that it was a colossal piece of [email protected], and the book had the usual Stephen King dose of gratuitous sex which was totally unnecessary to the story (yawn.) Maybe it's just me, but I can practically predict on what page it will happen in a Stephen King book.







Since sometimes a person might want to read the book after watching the movie, I might not want to open that door. YMMV

I don't fear technology, either, but when my dsd has already internet stalked someone, I think monitoring her internet usage is warranted. When at 11 she is wanting to correspond with college aged men, there is no way in he!! I'm not going to double check to make sure they aren't trying to make arrangements to meet her somewhere. I'd be stupid not to.

We're taking them parasailing soon, and I'm sure there are other parents who think that's a terrible thing to go do. We know another couple who takes their children cliffdiving, which I don't think we would do. But that's _their_ choice, not ours.









We're not anti-fun, but like anyone else, we choose what we feel is appropriate for our pre-teens. As I stated earlier, when they're 15 I'm sure the rules will be different than they are right now. I had super-controlling parents myself, so I'm trying to find a balance between that and being oblivious, and I'm not particularly happy that we _have_ to monitor the internet so closely, but I can't see any way out of it at this point.


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## ChampagneBlossom (Feb 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *because why not?* 
intent means a LOT, and I may be projecting, but I read a somewhat self-satisfied tone. It's one that I grew up with. My parents were domineering, and when anyone complained or begged for some freedom, we were mocked. The bit about the husband enjoying the "strictest parent in the world" title was hard to swallow, because it's so dismissive of the son's feelings (which are quite real, and quite powerful, at the age of 13).

Erm, I have to agree with that, somewhat...


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## because why not? (Feb 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bigeyes* 
I think there is a big difference between monitoring internet use and what type of movies your dcs watch and not giving your dcs any time alone.









I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. The OP stated that she only lets her 13 stay home alone when they run to the store, and also "lets" him babysit the other kids. IMO that is not nearly enough alone time for a 13 y/o. At 13, I NEEDED time away from my parents/siblings, and I am the youngest. I imagine the oldest has a much greater need to be away from siblings, no? I know my older daughter gets 'touched out' by her little sis, and as I recall, I was a major PITA to my older sibs.

The tech monitoring thing is another issue, one that I think every family ought to negotiate in their own manner. I happen to be a flaming laid-back liberal, so I know that my perspective is NOT going to gel with conservative and/or religious moms (just an example, not assuming anything about the OP).
BUT, a 13 y/o's need to be autonomous is universal. Your politics and parenting views don't over-ride biology, and biologically, a 13 y/o is a young adult. Our culture doesn't recognize or accommodate that reality, and I'm not complaining about that- but a teen's body/soul is yearning for the space to BE. At some point, the child/adult develops a love/hate relationship with the family. Kiddo still needs mommy, but hates being 'mommied'. From this analytical, adult perspective it all seems a bit comical, but it's a major ordeal for the kid.

I've been around the parenting cicuit. I've done the big forums, the private forums, the coop schools and the homeschool groups, and one thing that really distresses me is this: When it comes to teens, all of our gentle, intuitive, child-led philosophies seem to fly out the window. It makes me wonder if we were ever genuine in the first place, or if we were only in it while our kids were more moldable. More compliant. When our tots are defiant, we listen to their needs. We respect their individuality and adjust to it. But when our teens behave the same way, they're treated with mockery and contempt, and it makes me wonder if the whole idea of respecting our children is a put-on that we can only stomach when we know our kids will be dependent on us for the foreseeable future. It's all a ruse then, isn't it?


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## mrsfrenchy (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *because why not?* 
I've been around the parenting cicuit. I've done the big forums, the private forums, the coop schools and the homeschool groups, and one thing that really distresses me is this: When it comes to teens, all of our gentle, intuitive, child-led philosophies seem to fly out the window. It makes me wonder if we were ever genuine in the first place, or if we were only in it while our kids were more moldable. More compliant. When our tots are defiant, we listen to their needs. We respect their individuality and adjust to it. But when our teens behave the same way, they're treated with mockery and contempt, and it makes me wonder if the whole idea of respecting our children is a put-on that we can only stomach when we know our kids will be dependent on us for the foreseeable future. It's all a ruse then, isn't it?

Wonderful post.
I agree with you on this and had never thought of it this way.
I need to write this down somewhere and read it 12 years from now when DD is 13.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *because why not?* 
BUT, a 13 y/o's need to be autonomous is universal. Your politics and parenting views don't over-ride biology, and biologically, a 13 y/o is a young adult. Our culture doesn't recognize or accommodate that reality, and I'm not complaining about that- but a teen's body/soul is yearning for the space to BE. At some point, the child/adult develops a love/hate relationship with the family. Kiddo still needs mommy, but hates being 'mommied'. From this analytical, adult perspective it all seems a bit comical, but it's a major ordeal for the kid.

I've been around the parenting cicuit. I've done the big forums, the private forums, the coop schools and the homeschool groups, and one thing that really distresses me is this: When it comes to teens, all of our gentle, intuitive, child-led philosophies seem to fly out the window. It makes me wonder if we were ever genuine in the first place, or if we were only in it while our kids were more moldable. More compliant. When our tots are defiant, we listen to their needs. We respect their individuality and adjust to it. But when our teens behave the same way, they're treated with mockery and contempt, and it makes me wonder if the whole idea of respecting our children is a put-on that we can only stomach when we know our kids will be dependent on us for the foreseeable future. It's all a ruse then, isn't it?

Excellent points. I think part of the problem with teens is the way they relate to parents in some ways is with mockery and contempt.

Part of the necessary separation involves figuring out your parents don't know everything. But part of that process involves that annoying stage where they think we don't know _anything_. It's often difficult to not respond in a sarcastic manner when one is approached in a sarcastic manner.

We're fighting that battle right now in our household, because both dh and I feel that although ds and dsd are perfectly able to form their own opinions, it is _unacceptable_ for them to speak to us in a derisive or smart alecky tone on a daily basis. It's to be expected that they'll go tell their friends how dumb or unreasonable we are because that's what kids do at their age, but they don't get to talk to us like they think we're idiots. There are consequences, just like there would be if they spoke to a teacher that way, or any other authority figure.

It's great when we all get along, but when push comes to shove, it's my job to see that they grow up to be responsible, capable adults who know what kind of behavior is acceptable when dealing with other people. If we aren't the best of friends right now, I'm perfectly willing to make that sacrifice.


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## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

My parents had a similar parenting philosophy as the OP, I guess. I had no privacy, little freedom to be "normal" like my peers. I was presumed guilty and childish until proved otherwise and even the best evidence was rarely enough to convince my parents that I needed room to breathe, and moreover, that I deserved it.

I was a good student, an active volunteer with multiple charities and school activist groups, a leading member of my church youth group and church choir, and an all around good kid. I didn't smoke, drink, do drugs of any kind, or lie. Until I turned about 15, at which point I realized that it didn't matter what I did or didn't do--I'd still be treated like a naughty child. So I decided to earn the treatment. Lost my virginity freshman year, drank at parties, lied to my parents about my whereabouts, stopped telling them anything about myself, vowed to get out at 18. And I did, as soon as I could. Even during my first year of college, my father tried to set a curfew of 10pm for me when I came home to visit. So I stopped coming home.

Please don't be like my parents. Your post raises so many horrible red flags in my mind. I even remember my very authoritarian, strict father smugly saying "Thank you, I'll consider that a compliment" when I told him he was far stricter than any of my friends' parents. My mother kept telling me it was "for my own good". It wasn't.

You don't sound evil or cruel or mean-spirited, OP. But you do sound afraid. And you sound controlling, and those two things are not a good combination if you want any sort of decent relationship with your son. He needs to know that you trust him to be himself, and that you'll let him make mistakes--even if the consequences of those mistakes scare you. It sounds to me like he's asking you to respect his boundaries--and you need to do that. You need to learn what they are, and respect them.

I'm sorry if my post seems harsh, because my own son is still just a baby and I can only imagine how terrifying it is to be raising a teenager. But I read this thread and just couldn't not respond. You still have a chance to turn things around. I (and other posters here) had parents with similar authoritarian, controlling, unreasonably distrustful parenting styles, and it was _disastrous_ for everyone involved.


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *because why not?* 
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. The OP stated that she only lets her 13 stay home alone when they run to the store, and also "lets" him babysit the other kids. IMO that is not nearly enough alone time for a 13 y/o. At 13, I NEEDED time away from my parents/siblings, and I am the youngest. I imagine the oldest has a much greater need to be away from siblings, no? I know my older daughter gets 'touched out' by her little sis, and as I recall, I was a major PITA to my older sibs.

The tech monitoring thing is another issue, one that I think every family ought to negotiate in their own manner. I happen to be a flaming laid-back liberal, so I know that my perspective is NOT going to gel with conservative and/or religious moms (just an example, not assuming anything about the OP).
BUT, a 13 y/o's need to be autonomous is universal. Your politics and parenting views don't over-ride biology, and biologically, a 13 y/o is a young adult. Our culture doesn't recognize or accommodate that reality, and I'm not complaining about that- but a teen's body/soul is yearning for the space to BE. At some point, the child/adult develops a love/hate relationship with the family. Kiddo still needs mommy, but hates being 'mommied'. From this analytical, adult perspective it all seems a bit comical, but it's a major ordeal for the kid.

I've been around the parenting cicuit. I've done the big forums, the private forums, the coop schools and the homeschool groups, and one thing that really distresses me is this: When it comes to teens, all of our gentle, intuitive, child-led philosophies seem to fly out the window. It makes me wonder if we were ever genuine in the first place, or if we were only in it while our kids were more moldable. More compliant. When our tots are defiant, we listen to their needs. We respect their individuality and adjust to it. But when our teens behave the same way, they're treated with mockery and contempt, and it makes me wonder if the whole idea of respecting our children is a put-on that we can only stomach when we know our kids will be dependent on us for the foreseeable future. It's all a ruse then, isn't it?

Can I frame this??? This is such a good post. What fantastic insight...well said mama, well said!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peainthepod* 
My parents had a similar parenting philosophy as the OP, I guess. I had no privacy, little freedom to be "normal" like my peers. I was presumed guilty and childish until proved otherwise and even the best evidence was rarely enough to convince my parents that I needed room to breathe, and moreover, that I deserved it.

I was a good student, an active volunteer with multiple charities and school activist groups, a leading member of my church youth group and church choir, and an all around good kid. I didn't smoke, drink, do drugs of any kind, or lie. Until I turned about 15, at which point I realized that it didn't matter what I did or didn't do--I'd still be treated like a naughty child. So I decided to earn the treatment. Lost my virginity freshman year, drank at parties, lied to my parents about my whereabouts, stopped telling them anything about myself, vowed to get out at 18. And I did, as soon as I could. Even during my first year of college, my father tried to set a curfew of 10pm for me when I came home to visit. So I stopped coming home.

Please don't be like my parents. Your post raises so many horrible red flags in my mind. I even remember my very authoritarian, strict father smugly saying "Thank you, I'll consider that a compliment" when I told him he was far stricter than any of my friends' parents. My mother kept telling me it was "for my own good". It wasn't.

You don't sound evil or cruel or mean-spirited, OP. But you do sound afraid. And you sound controlling, and those two things are not a good combination if you want any sort of decent relationship with your son. He needs to know that you trust him to be himself, and that you'll let him make mistakes--even if the consequences of those mistakes scare you. It sounds to me like he's asking you to respect his boundaries--and you need to do that. You need to learn what they are, and respect them.

I'm sorry if my post seems harsh, because my own son is still just a baby and I can only imagine how terrifying it is to be raising a teenager. But I read this thread and just couldn't not respond. You still have a chance to turn things around. I (and other posters here) had parents with similar authoritarian, controlling, unreasonably distrustful parenting styles, and it was _disastrous_ for everyone involved.

Thank you for sharing this. I think you worded it very well and not harshly at all. While we've never been controlling in the ways the OP has stated, I've learned so much from reading the posts of people who have felt treated that way by their parents. What an eye opener for parents to be able to realize how deeply teens appreciate and need their space and opinions to be valued.


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## because why not? (Feb 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bigeyes* 
Excellent points. I think part of the problem with teens is the way they relate to parents in some ways is with mockery and contempt.


Noooooooo... kids are great!!! All the time!!!







My last post on MDC before this was about how obnoxious my 4.5 y/o is. And man, is she ever obnoxious. I think when this one hits 13 I'm just going to go to the county jail and turn myself in early.

Man, when I think about how horrible I was as a teen, I almost feel sorry for my parents! But then again, I don't feel all that bad about stealing a cookie from the cookie jar when I was three.

Kids, and parents, are total raging brats most of the time. Kids treat their parents with contempt LONG BEFORE they hit the double digits; I just think it's easier to dismiss it when they're small. And if we're perfectly honest, didn't we all feel some contempt for that nursling that needed round the clock attention? That toddler that refused to give the perfect family portrait we longed to send out with our holiday cards? I mean, the parent/child relationship is laced with contempt from day one. It's natural and necessary and perfectly normal. But the thing is: my four y/o spat on me today. Twice. We had a major melt down, but you know what? I didn't spit back.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *because why not?* 
Noooooooo... kids are great!!! All the time!!!







My last post on MDC before this was about how obnoxious my 4.5 y/o is. And man, is she ever obnoxious. I think when this one hits 13 I'm just going to go to the county jail and turn myself in early.

Man, when I think about how horrible I was as a teen, I almost feel sorry for my parents! But then again, I don't feel all that bad about stealing a cookie from the cookie jar when I was three.

Kids, and parents, are total raging brats most of the time. Kids treat their parents with contempt LONG BEFORE they hit the double digits; I just think it's easier to dismiss it when they're small. And if we're perfectly honest, didn't we all feel some contempt for that nursling that needed round the clock attention? That toddler that refused to give the perfect family portrait we longed to send out with our holiday cards? I mean, the parent/child relationship is laced with contempt from day one. It's natural and necessary and perfectly normal. But the thing is: my four y/o spat on me today. Twice. We had a major melt down, but you know what? I didn't spit back.


yikes. I've been fortunate, I guess. Neither of mine ever spat on me. We've just seen the really obnoxious stuff surface during 9-12, and fortunately it comes and goes.

I find myself longing for 2-6. Those are my favorite years, when they're so full of wonder and excitement. I'm even sort of looking forward to the teen years with a mixture of dread and excitement, because almost every child I've ever known I've found to be most difficult during the tween stages and I'm not finding my own to be any different.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bigeyes* 
We're fighting that battle right now in our household, because both dh and I feel that although ds and dsd are perfectly able to form their own opinions, it is _unacceptable_ for them to speak to us in a derisive or smart alecky tone on a daily basis. It's to be expected that they'll go tell their friends how dumb or unreasonable we are because that's what kids do at their age, but they don't get to talk to us like they think we're idiots. There are consequences, just like there would be if they spoke to a teacher that way, or any other authority figure.

I feel ya, we are struggling with that too. Compounded by the fact that despite my bad relationship with my mother, I NEVER spoke to her like that. It was just completely unacceptable where and when I was a teen to speak disrespectfully to a parent, and I never did it even when she was at her most unreasonable. So when I get the snotty tone from my older DD is drives me nuts (and she knows it and uses it to push my buttons). It's SO difficult not to scream at her that I don't speak to her like that, so why can't she use a decent tone...


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peainthepod* 
... I was presumed guilty and childish until proved otherwise and even the best evidence was rarely enough to convince my parents that I needed room to breathe, and moreover, that I deserved it.

... an all around good kid. I didn't smoke, drink, do drugs of any kind, or lie. Until I turned about 15, at which point I realized that it didn't matter what I did or didn't do--I'd still be treated like a naughty child.











My father-in-law used to run group homes for troubled teens. He reassured me that I was nothing like them. It was like a light bulb turned on. I spent my teen years convinced that I was a little hellion.


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
I feel ya, we are struggling with that too. Compounded by the fact that despite my bad relationship with my mother, I NEVER spoke to her like that. It was just completely unacceptable where and when I was a teen to speak disrespectfully to a parent, and I never did it even when she was at her most unreasonable. So when I get the snotty tone from my older DD is drives me nuts (and she knows it and uses it to push my buttons). It's SO difficult not to scream at her that I don't speak to her like that, so why can't she use a decent tone...

I'm just throwing this out here as a thought....

Maybe we dared not talk to our parents that way BECAUSE we didn't have that great of a relationship with them??

Maybe our kids feel safer to do that because they KNOW we love them unconditionally??

Thoughts?


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## because why not? (Feb 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bigeyes* 
yikes. I've been fortunate, I guess. Neither of mine ever spat on me.

She really just blows raspberries into the air at me, but the result is that I end up with her spit on my face. We've been through this several times, so she knows better. But no, she isn't hocking a loog and shooting it at me- it isn't an angry, mean-spirited act so much as just pushing her boundaries and craving a response.

I don't mean to derail. Carry on!


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
I'm just throwing this out here as a thought....

Maybe we dared not talk to our parents that way BECAUSE we didn't have that great of a relationship with them??

Maybe our kids feel safer to do that because they KNOW we love them unconditionally??

Thoughts?

I get where you are coming from, but aren't our kids supposed to learn how to treat other people from what we model for them? We spend years trying to do the opposite of our own parents, treating our kids with respect and consideration for their feelings, only to find that they don't seem to feel it necessary to reciprocate.

Sigh. I know she'll grow out of it (probably just in time for DD2 to start with it) but at times it feels like nothing is appreciated and all I've done is created an entitlement minded nasty toned little baggage.







:

I allow my kids a LOT more freedom than I ever had. They have a great deal more in the material sense than I ever had. They can talk to me about anything. But it still seems that expecting a reasonable tone of voice is too much.

I don't really have that much to complain about. She does well in school, does her part in keeping our house and in taking her turn with food prep. But that tone and the attitude that "nothing is enough, I deserve more" just drives me insane. I'm afraid I may have bitten my tongue right off by the time she does grow out of it. It's not even what she says, it's the way she says it sometimes. Admittedly, it's not all the time.


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *because why not?* 
When it comes to teens, all of our gentle, intuitive, child-led philosophies seem to fly out the window. It makes me wonder if we were ever genuine in the first place, or if we were only in it while our kids were more moldable. More compliant. When our tots are defiant, we listen to their needs. We respect their individuality and adjust to it. But when our teens behave the same way, they're treated with mockery and contempt, and it makes me wonder if the whole idea of respecting our children is a put-on that we can only stomach when we know our kids will be dependent on us for the foreseeable future. It's all a ruse then, isn't it?

Can this be a sticky?

This is what I have wanted to say but not been able to articulate on this board for the last 3 years

thank you!


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *because why not?* 
She really just blows raspberries into the air at me, but the result is that I end up with her spit on my face. We've been through this several times, so she knows better. But no, she isn't hocking a loog and shooting it at me- it isn't an angry, mean-spirited act so much as just pushing her boundaries and craving a response.

I don't mean to derail. Carry on!


But I think the point you are making is that you did not retaliate in a childlike manner... you handled it with care and understanding and direction ... do our teens not deserve the same? ... you made a good point


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Sigh. I know she'll grow out of it (probably just in time for DD2 to start with it) but at times it feels like nothing is appreciated and all I've done is created an entitlement minded nasty toned little baggage.







:


I know what you mean ... after I remind myself that its a good thing my kids are willing to speak their mind, I remind them how I would prefer to be spoken to and how it makes me feel when act that way.


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## lizajane30 (Mar 19, 2005)

I don't have a teen yet, but have been following this thread with interest. The only thing I think I have to add to this conversation is an encouragement to *all* parents to take a look into Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg. His writing speaks to these situations in raising teens nicely, I think, and supports communication between parents and teens being respectful in both directions because we're all human, rather than because a parent (or other authority figure) "deserves" respect because they're, well, in power.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

After reading most of this thread, and responding earlier, I want to go back to basics. I our house, our parenting philosophy is (and always has been) based on trust and respect. When a 4-year-old is having a tantrum, we respected and honored the feelings - even if we didn't allow the tantrum to take place at the dinner table. That was part of THEM learning to respect our rights, like having a meal without anyone screaming. They also learned to trust that we were not setting rules because we were mindless, strict, horrible parents - we discussed practically every rule and decision, and gave the reasons behind them.

Example: you need to go to bed at a reasonable time so you aren't tired and cranky in school. When they asked for a later bedtime ("our friends get to stay up later!"), I would explain that if they were able to wake up on their own in the morning without the alarm on a regular basis, then they were obviously getting enough sleep, and could stay up later. If they needed to be dragged out of bed, obviously they were not getting enough sleep, and staying up later was not an option. Eventually they realized that this made sense, and willingly went to bed at a reasonable time - even on weekends - because they didn't like the feeling of a tired, cranky morning and school day. They realized that their bodies, not their parents, determined bedtime. Given enough situations like this, they learned to trust us, and spent less time questioning the rules. We had never given them a reason to NOT trust us, and we had proven ourselves to be fair and reasonable.

As the boys got older (they are 14-1/2 now), the issues changed, but the basis of trust and respect remains. We talk about stuff, and sometimes they have convincing enough arguments for me to change my initial response to a request. I won't change my mind if someone throws a fit - only rationale, thoughtful discussion can open the door to change. Consequently, our kids have learned to think hard about WHY they want something, so they can convince me (and I'm NOT an easy sell!)

We respect each other's privacy (no one in our family enters a closed door without knocking first and getting permission); we respect each other's feelings. The rules are pretty much the same for the adults as they are for the kids, which makes life a lot easier. We respect their opinions, and as they have gotten older have enjoyed watching them develop their own ideas about politics, the environment, technology, school - just about anything. They know they will be taken seriously.

And TRUST - that's the biggie. We trust them to do the right thing in different situation, and they usually do. And they trust US to behave in a reasonable fashion (at least most of the time). I can't overemphasize how important this is! One of my sons has been suffering from depression for the last few months, to the point where he was having suicidal thoughts. It took him a few days, but he told me about those thoughts - even though he knew that it was one thing no parent on the planet wants to hear. A week later when the random thoughts became a suicide plan, he told me immediately, and I admitted him to the hospital. It took an incredible level of trust to confide in me, and I will be forever grateful that he did. I later learned that only 30% of kids with suicidal thoughts tell their parents.

So here's our parenting in a nutshell: Is this decision respectful? Will it promote trust or erode it? Do I respect his opinion and ideas? Do I trust him?

Keeping those questions at the top of the list tends to make everything else fall into place.


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## mamatoni (Aug 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nd_deadhead* 
After reading most of this thread, and responding earlier, I want to go back to basics. I our house, our parenting philosophy is (and always has been) based on trust and respect. When a 4-year-old is having a tantrum, we respected and honored the feelings - even if we didn't allow the tantrum to take place at the dinner table. That was part of THEM learning to respect our rights, like having a meal without anyone screaming. They also learned to trust that we were not setting rules because we were mindless, strict, horrible parents - we discussed practically every rule and decision, and gave the reasons behind them.

Example: you need to go to bed at a reasonable time so you aren't tired and cranky in school. When they asked for a later bedtime ("our friends get to stay up later!"), I would explain that if they were able to wake up on their own in the morning without the alarm on a regular basis, then they were obviously getting enough sleep, and could stay up later. If they needed to be dragged out of bed, obviously they were not getting enough sleep, and staying up later was not an option. Eventually they realized that this made sense, and willingly went to bed at a reasonable time - even on weekends - because they didn't like the feeling of a tired, cranky morning and school day. They realized that their bodies, not their parents, determined bedtime. Given enough situations like this, they learned to trust us, and spent less time questioning the rules. We had never given them a reason to NOT trust us, and we had proven ourselves to be fair and reasonable.

As the boys got older (they are 14-1/2 now), the issues changed, but the basis of trust and respect remains. We talk about stuff, and sometimes they have convincing enough arguments for me to change my initial response to a request. I won't change my mind if someone throws a fit - only rationale, thoughtful discussion can open the door to change. Consequently, our kids have learned to think hard about WHY they want something, so they can convince me (and I'm NOT an easy sell!)

We respect each other's privacy (no one in our family enters a closed door without knocking first and getting permission); we respect each other's feelings. The rules are pretty much the same for the adults as they are for the kids, which makes life a lot easier. We respect their opinions, and as they have gotten older have enjoyed watching them develop their own ideas about politics, the environment, technology, school - just about anything. They know they will be taken seriously.

And TRUST - that's the biggie. We trust them to do the right thing in different situation, and they usually do. And they trust US to behave in a reasonable fashion (at least most of the time). I can't overemphasize how important this is! One of my sons has been suffering from depression for the last few months, to the point where he was having suicidal thoughts. It took him a few days, but he told me about those thoughts - even though he knew that it was one thing no parent on the planet wants to hear. A week later when the random thoughts became a suicide plan, he told me immediately, and I admitted him to the hospital. It took an incredible level of trust to confide in me, and I will be forever grateful that he did. I later learned that only 30% of kids with suicidal thoughts tell their parents.

So here's our parenting in a nutshell: Is this decision respectful? Will it promote trust or erode it? Do I respect his opinion and ideas? Do I trust him?

Keeping those questions at the top of the list tends to make everything else fall into place.

OMG! What a fantastic post!!!!





















you summed up my own hopes, dreams and parenting philosophy so well, can I print this out and put in on my fridge?







:


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nd_deadhead* 
lAnd TRUST - that's the biggie. We trust them to do the right thing in different situation, and they usually do. And they trust US to behave in a reasonable fashion (at least most of the time). I can't overemphasize how important this is! One of my sons has been suffering from depression for the last few months, to the point where he was having suicidal thoughts. It took him a few days, but he told me about those thoughts - even though he knew that it was one thing no parent on the planet wants to hear. A week later when the random thoughts became a suicide plan, he told me immediately, and I admitted him to the hospital. It took an incredible level of trust to confide in me, and I will be forever grateful that he did. I later learned that only 30% of kids with suicidal thoughts tell their parents.

FWIW, I'm sure your parenting approach contributed to him telling you, but it's not all of it. I trusted my mom 100%...and never said one word to her, or anyone else, about my suicidal thoughts as a teen. I never even told most of my friends, because I was afraid they'd decide to get me help, and I didn't want it. I figured my mom would take it seriously...and probably admit me to the hospital, as you did. That's _why_ I never told her.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar* 
I have to admit, when Rain was 13 I never would have considered asking one of her friends if she was allowed to watch a certain movie... in my world, 13 year olds are competent to know what movies that want to watch or are permitted to watch, and I don't see ensuring that as my job.

Me, neither.

I want to say that, out of all my kids' friends, the ones who seem to have poor coping skills are the ones who have overly-controlling and sheltering parents.

DS2 is 13, and he has a Facebook page and a Myspace page. I'm his friend on both of them, but it's not because I want to see what he's "doing." He's had his own email for years. He watches pretty much whatever he wants; he has enough self-awareness to know if something bothers him, and since he's not forbidden from seeing those things by me, he has nothing to prove to anyone.

No, I don't parent the way I do to upset other parents. I do what I think is best for my family. If a kid comes over and tells me that he's allowed to watch an R-rated movie even though he's not, that tells me something.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Toni, great post. I'm not nearly that consistent myself, but I try to parent this way, too. I think I've influenced dh this way as well, at least a little.


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## KaraBoo (Nov 22, 2001)

I agree that it's a delicate balance between giving them the space to grow and learn on their own while also sticking to your personal ideals and understanding your own expectations.

I disagree with whoever on the front page said the movies we saw as kids were not as graphic as current films. That's just not exactly true.

I think we all know we can raise our children as we know is right. I know for myself, I want trust and compassion and tolerance in my relationship with my children. It is what I try to cultivate in all relationships. Sometimes it comes easily and sometimes it's hard.

My daughter is ten. She has seen Milk (which was mentioned on the front page) and tons of other films I know her friends have not seen. She has her own email address but forgets to check it LOL She doesn't have a facebook account but plays games on mine (vampires, pet society, superpokepets...). She calls friends on the phone. She makes her own decisions about her hair and her clothes. I know ten is different than 13 but I hope that when we hit those years, we'll work to maintain the level of trust we have right now.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

In all honesty, I give little to know thought to how others may view my parenting decisions. Yes, I am one of the more permissive parents in my kids' peer group. There are few "hard and fast" rules in our home. The main ones are - no one abuses our pets, non-family members don't belong in my bedroom unless I give the okay, and... don't put an empty milk jug back in the fridge. Oh - and tell me when said milk jug is empty at some time other than 5am! Pretty much everything else is on a case-by-case basis.

Do I ask kids if they're allowed to watch something? Yep. Followed by "so.... if I called your folks - they'd be cool with it?" The kids know not to lie to me.

Do some of those kids go home and tell their parents "but Mrs T lets HER kids do X, Y, Z."? I'm sure they do. But really? Not my problem. I've had some parents tell me off. I've had others tell me that my kids are among the few who come into their home and do not automatically assume that they can take/use/eat whatever they choose. They are unfailingly polite and always ask first.

When I say no to something, my kids always know why and understand that it isn't arbitrary. They also know that, if they disagree, they are welcome to present their pov - and I will sometimes rethink my position.

My goal as a parent is to raise two young adults who are able to make reasoned choices and know how to navigate the world they inhabit. Sometimes I let them do things that have my heart in my throat (like allowing my 15yo to take a rail trip via Amtrak from Philly - Boston alone to visit a friend).

My Mom sometimes pales at the things I allow them to do, but she will be the first to tell you what great kids they are, and that it has a lot to do with how I've raised them.

SO... sorry if my way of raising them makes it hard for another parent. But that really isn't my problem.


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## chiromamma (Feb 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mtiger* 
In all honesty, I give little to know thought to how others may view my parenting decisions. Yes, I am one of the more permissive parents in my kids' peer group. There are few "hard and fast" rules in our home. The main ones are - no one abuses our pets, non-family members don't belong in my bedroom unless I give the okay, and... don't put an empty milk jug back in the fridge. Oh - and tell me when said milk jug is empty at some time other than 5am! Pretty much everything else is on a case-by-case basis.

Do I ask kids if they're allowed to watch something? Yep. Followed by "so.... if I called your folks - they'd be cool with it?" The kids know not to lie to me.

Do some of those kids go home and tell their parents "but Mrs T lets HER kids do X, Y, Z."? I'm sure they do. But really? Not my problem. I've had some parents tell me off. I've had others tell me that my kids are among the few who come into their home and do not automatically assume that they can take/use/eat whatever they choose. They are unfailingly polite and always ask first.

When I say no to something, my kids always know why and understand that it isn't arbitrary. They also know that, if they disagree, they are welcome to present their pov - and I will sometimes rethink my position.

My goal as a parent is to raise two young adults who are able to make reasoned choices and know how to navigate the world they inhabit. Sometimes I let them do things that have my heart in my throat (like allowing my 15yo to take a rail trip via Amtrak from Philly - Boston alone to visit a friend).

My Mom sometimes pales at the things I allow them to do, but she will be the first to tell you what great kids they are, and that it has a lot to do with how I've raised them.

SO... sorry if my way of raising them makes it hard for another parent. But that really isn't my problem.

I love this post and aspire to parent my kids in the same way. I have a question though. You have few hard and fast rules...the ones you list make total sense to me. How do you handle when your kids blow off their responsibilities? Whether it's not unloading the dishwasher or choosing to not do homework, turn in assignments, what have you? Leaving piles of their cr*p all over the house?
I do not mean this in a snarky way. As I said, I love how you describe your parenting. I feel like I tend to micromanage my kids sometimes and I hate it. However, when I have left them to take responsibility, they totally blow it off and I am left with a messy house and teachers requesting meetings and conferences because my kids don't pull their weight.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cherie2* 
and you would not be there to discuss it with them..

maybe the worst that could happen is they could build up resentment towards you and not care what your opinions are...

or they could feel so controlled that they rebel and spend years doing things just because they were not "allowed" instead choosing them

Really I don't mean to be adversarial, but I have reasons for letting my children do the things I let them do, and its not so your kids can come home and tell you I let them do it.

I agree with this so much. My kids already have or will have by 13 the freedoms to do all the things that you son can't, OP, and it's because that's what we feel is best for them. I am not about to alter my parenting (and my core values -- which include being 100% anti-censorship) in order to make other, stricter parents have an easier time parenting in a way that I find completely objectionable.

I hope that you will reconsider how little privacy you are allowing your son, and how this may impact him as he ages -- you are underestimating things if you think the worst ramifications this will have is that he watches a bunch of R-rated movies as soon as he turns 17.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chiromamma* 
You have few hard and fast rules...the ones you list make total sense to me. How do you handle when your kids blow off their responsibilities? Whether it's not unloading the dishwasher or choosing to not do homework, turn in assignments, what have you? Leaving piles of their cr*p all over the house?
I do not mean this in a snarky way. As I said, I love how you describe your parenting. I feel like I tend to micromanage my kids sometimes and I hate it. However, when I have left them to take responsibility, they totally blow it off and I am left with a messy house and teachers requesting meetings and conferences because my kids don't pull their weight.

I'm not answering *for* Mtiger....I'm just answering because she and I parent similarly.

I can't speak for the teacher/school thing. Allowing my children to pursue the things _they_ deem important is one of the reasons we homeschool. I'm totally not interested in playing the game of school. When people blow things off, it's because it has no real importance for them, IMO.

As for chores....when they were younger we did them together. Our house is messy anyway, but not dysfunctional messy. It's active-people-living-life messy. They're older now and tend not to blow off their responsibilities. They understand that DH and I work hard to provide for them and to better our lives (I'm in school in addition to WOTH), and that if we have more chores to do, we'll have less time and are less likely to feel like taking them places or doing stuff with them.

I also know that if one of my kids is feeling lazy and procrastinating on their chores, that they're human. Sometimes *I* don't feel like washing dishes, either. So on those rare occasions, I will sometimes do it for them....knowing fully well that the next time the dog pesters me to let him out (which is about a million times a day), one of the boys will help me out.

On a tangent....

One thing I've noticed about lots of people that I work with and even my DH sometimes....they have a "it's not my job" attitude. My parents never made me do any chores. They just asked me to help and I did. I often grumbled, but I still helped. Seriously....my kids each have ONE regular chore that has to be done daily. DS1 has to take out the trash and recycling. DS2 has to unload the dishwasher. Everything else is on a per request basis or I pay them for it (washing the car, cutting the grass, shoveling snow).

I've noticed that if I ask my older DS to do the dishes or ask younger DS to take out the trash for whatever reason, I get the "it's Brother's job" response. I originally implemented these chores to keep things simplified around here, but I sometimes regret having done it. I think it's weird that they're both willing to help out with just about anything else, except for "Brother's job."

When I see something that needs to be done, I just do it, even if it's not my job. I wonder sometimes if my parents had it right about this one thing.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jessy1019* 
I agree with this so much. My kids already have or will have by 13 the freedoms to do all the things that you son can't, OP, and it's because that's what we feel is best for them. I am not about to alter my parenting (and my core values -- which include being 100% anti-censorship) in order to make other, stricter parents have an easier time parenting in a way that I find completely objectionable.

I hope that you will reconsider how little privacy you are allowing your son, and how this may impact him as he ages -- you are underestimating things if you think the worst ramifications this will have is that he watches a bunch of R-rated movies as soon as he turns 17.

This.

At 13, I believe that a kid has to have developed a basic sense of self and a basic sense of responsibility--and in order to develop that, they have to have the ability to make decisions as to what is right and wrong for them to do.

You really don't know, at 13, how much longer you are going to have true influence over them. At 14, I sought out and considered going to a boarding honors high school (my state has a boarding public high school for honors students), even though I ultimately decided that it wasn't the right choice for me. My husband basically moved out of his parents house at 15, to go to his state's honors high school. With the addition of associated summer activities, he really never lived under their roof for more than a month at a time again.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
On a tangent....

One thing I've noticed about lots of people that I work with and even my DH sometimes....they have a "it's not my job" attitude. My parents never made me do any chores. They just asked me to help and I did. I often grumbled, but I still helped.

This is interesting. DH used to worry about ds1 not getting tings done, because he didn't have chores. DH had chores, and he's pretty self-motivated, and gets things done around here. OTOH...I never had chores, and I always got things done at home, as well. My parents operated on the basis of asking for, and receiving help, not on a set list of chores.

I have given ds1 several chores, but we've assigned those more to ensure that he learns how to do them. I'm somewhat horrified at how many _adults_ can't clean a bathroom, scrub a toilet or vacuum, yk? DS1 has been on bathrooms on alternating weekends for about a month and a half (he's done them 3 or 4 times) and he's getting much better at seeing what needs to be done. I'm honestly more concerned that he learn that, than I am that he "does his chores".

I don't worry much about him pulling his own weight, because he's always helped out. He used to come with me to the grocery store, and he'd carry a bag all the way home, even when he was only 5 or 6. He helps out with his siblings when necessary. Last night, my bread machine beeped at me, and I was washing dishes, so I got ds1 to take the dough out, remove the paddle and re-shape the loaf. That's not a big thing, but I like knowing he'll help if I need him to.

Quote:

When I see something that needs to be done, I just do it, even if it's not my job. I wonder sometimes if my parents had it right about this one thing.

















I'm mostly like that, too. There are a few things I'll dodge for a while, if I can, but it's more because I really hate doing them.







I don't tend to do ds1's trash and recycling chores, but that's mostly because I'm home with the kids, and taking them down to the dumpster 2-3 times becomes a half-day task. Normally, if I notice that the garbage needs to go out, it's when I'm in the middle of something, so I don't really have time to take the kids on errands.


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## chiromamma (Feb 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
I'm not answering *for* Mtiger...
On a tangent....

One thing I've noticed about lots of people that I work with and even my DH sometimes....they have a "it's not my job" attitude. My parents never made me do any chores. They just asked me to help and I did. I often grumbled, but I still helped. Seriously....my kids each have ONE regular chore that has to be done daily. DS1 has to take out the trash and recycling. DS2 has to unload the dishwasher. Everything else is on a per request basis or I pay them for it (washing the car, cutting the grass, shoveling snow).

I've noticed that if I ask my older DS to do the dishes or ask younger DS to take out the trash for whatever reason, I get the "it's Brother's job" response. I originally implemented these chores to keep things simplified around here, but I sometimes regret having done it. I think it's weird that they're both willing to help out with just about anything else, except for "Brother's job."

When I see something that needs to be done, I just do it, even if it's not my job. I wonder sometimes if my parents had it right about this one thing.









Honestly, I have found this to be so true. Having let go of the assigned chores, my kids are more reasonable and willing to help when I just ask for the help when it's needed. We had DD assigned to unloading the dishwasher. Well, 2 days a week she doesn't get home unitl 8pm. It makes no sense to have that wait because it's "her job". DS's do kitcehn stuff those nights.
On the school thing, I get it about importance but my kids choose to be in a school they picked out so inherent in that choice is the agreeing to do what's asked of them. I'm happy to homeschool and let them guide the curriculum. They love the community and travel opportunities of the school they are in.
Anyway. I think I'll do away with the chores list.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chiromamma* 
I love this post and aspire to parent my kids in the same way. I have a question though. You have few hard and fast rules...the ones you list make total sense to me. How do you handle when your kids blow off their responsibilities? Whether it's not unloading the dishwasher or choosing to not do homework, turn in assignments, what have you? Leaving piles of their cr*p all over the house?
I do not mean this in a snarky way. As I said, I love how you describe your parenting. I feel like I tend to micromanage my kids sometimes and I hate it. However, when I have left them to take responsibility, they totally blow it off and I am left with a messy house and teachers requesting meetings and conferences because my kids don't pull their weight.

I didn't take it in a snarky way.

We don't really have assigned chores. Pretty much, we all know what needs to be done, and we pull together, picking up slack as needed. Both of the kids can cook, do laundry, etc. and do as needed. Not every day, but depending on their schedule and mine. The only thing that NEEDS to be done daily is feeding the animals & letting the hounds out - I take the morning as I'm the first one up. Letting them out during the day and feeding them at night depends on who's home when.

When they were much younger, it pretty much came down to "we can work together and have time for all three of us to do something fun, or you can leave it to me and there won't be much time for fun at all."

As for homework, etc... I keep an eye on their online grade books, and if I see something of concern I suggest that the relevant child check it as well. They can see the effect a zero has on their grade as well as I can - and they don't like it much. While I am always available to help, I'm relatively hands off otherwise.


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## Novella (Nov 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *because why not?* 
I've been around the parenting cicuit. I've done the big forums, the private forums, the coop schools and the homeschool groups, and one thing that really distresses me is this: When it comes to teens, all of our gentle, intuitive, child-led philosophies seem to fly out the window. It makes me wonder if we were ever genuine in the first place, or if we were only in it while our kids were more moldable. More compliant. When our tots are defiant, we listen to their needs. We respect their individuality and adjust to it. But when our teens behave the same way, they're treated with mockery and contempt, and it makes me wonder if the whole idea of respecting our children is a put-on that we can only stomach when we know our kids will be dependent on us for the foreseeable future. It's all a ruse then, isn't it?









This is *FANTASTIC*! Thank you so very much.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chiromamma* 
Honestly, I have found this to be so true. Having let go of the assigned chores, my kids are more reasonable and willing to help when I just ask for the help when it's needed. We had DD assigned to unloading the dishwasher. Well, 2 days a week she doesn't get home unitl 8pm. It makes no sense to have that wait because it's "her job". DS's do kitcehn stuff those nights.

I've never thought of it in these terms before, but yeah, this has been so true for us. The times when I've tried to implement specific chores have always gone badly - and it's usually been pretty minor stuff, like feeding the pets once a day. It used to really irk me, but in retrospect I think I was interfering with the flow of our days, so it didn't work. When I keep the focus on both of us doing what needs to be done, things go more smoothly... when I focus on how much more often I'm doing Chore X than Rain is, I feel put-upon and grouchy...

Dar


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## churndash (Mar 25, 2009)

I grew up in a very liberal, permissive household and I got into all sorts of trouble as a teenager - not trouble with my parents, of course, because they felt I was old enough to make my own mistakes and pay the consequences.

But I wasn't really. I wasn't old enough at 16 to understand that getting drunk and passing out at some party would result in waking up wondering if a strange guy had sex with you while you were unconscious and how horrible that moment would feel.

There were times I felt that my parents didn't even really care about me. Some of my friends had to be home by midnight - I had no curfew. Didn't they care if I made it home at night?

I love my parents and I know they were doing what they thought was right but it wasn't right for me. I think I would have been a lot happier with some rules.

I have rules for my kids, including my teen, and they are in place to help her, not punish her. Sometimes she is angry when I won't let her do something, but that's okay. It would be impossible for a child to go through life never being mad at their parent.


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## flowers (Apr 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *churndash* 
I grew up in a very liberal, permissive household and I got into all sorts of trouble as a teenager - not trouble with my parents, of course, because they felt I was old enough to make my own mistakes and pay the consequences.

But I wasn't really. I wasn't old enough at 16 to understand that getting drunk and passing out at some party would result in waking up wondering if a strange guy had sex with you while you were unconscious and how horrible that moment would feel.

There were times I felt that my parents didn't even really care about me. Some of my friends had to be home by midnight - I had no curfew. Didn't they care if I made it home at night?

I love my parents and I know they were doing what they thought was right but it wasn't right for me. I think I would have been a lot happier with some rules.

I have rules for my kids, including my teen, and they are in place to help her, not punish her. Sometimes she is angry when I won't let her do something, but that's okay. It would be impossible for a child to go through life never being mad at their parent.

I've heard this. I would like to think that I can be deeply involved in my child's well-being and life without becoming overly authoritarian. Like everything try and find balance.

Not to mention a 16 year old could find themselves in a similarly scary situation after lying to her parents about sleeping at Suzy's house.


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
The more I think about it the more I am convinced it is not the rules (or lack of them per se) that is important - it is the intent, and relationships.

You may think it is Ok for most 13 year olds to watch Saw - I may not.

Last time I checked there was no rule book on who is right in these situations(and if you have one, can you loan it to me, please!?!







)

What I do think matter is that you parent intentionally.

EX: let child watch saw because you genuinely believe a 13 year is capable of handling it, watch it with them, ask them about it, help them determine if this is something they find entertaining _versus_ let them watch it because you can't be botherred parenting them

ex: do not let child watch saw. Explain reasons as much as necessary. Let them know you love them, you get that they do not agree with you, but the decision is coming from a place of concern. Offer alternatives to Saw. Talk about when and under what circumstances Saw might be allowed. _versus_ do not let the watch Saw "because it is my house and I said so". Come off as controlling.

I think if adult children understand that parents had their best intentions growing up and made informed decsions to the best of ability, even if they made mistakes, they will forgive us

















:


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *churndash* 
I grew up in a very liberal, permissive household and I got into all sorts of trouble as a teenager - not trouble with my parents, of course, because they felt I was old enough to make my own mistakes and pay the consequences.

But I wasn't really. I wasn't old enough at 16 to understand that getting drunk and passing out at some party would result in waking up wondering if a strange guy had sex with you while you were unconscious and how horrible that moment would feel.

However, let's not forget that not ALL teens feel that getting drunk (let alone to the point of passing out) is a great or fun thing to do. Neither of my two - or their friends (who range in age from 14 - 19) - drink. Both of mine know that, if they want a glass of wine or beer or whatever, I will allow them to have it. At home. Not their friends, though. That's up to their parents. The only time either of them have was when A (15 at the time, I think) had a half glass of champagne on New Year's Eve.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *churndash* 
There were times I felt that my parents didn't even really care about me. Some of my friends had to be home by midnight - I had no curfew. Didn't they care if I made it home at night?

Mine don't have a curfew. Doesn't mean I don't care. What it does mean is that it depends on the particular situation. Who they're going with, how they're getting there/back, where they're going. And whether or not it's a school night. We usually come up with a mutually acceptable time - and a call is expected if they're not going to be home by then. But ya know.... I offer the same courtesy. If I'm going out, I let them know when I plan to be home, and I call if I'm going to be late.

They also know that they can call, regardless of the time, if they need me to come get them. So if one of their friends DOES make a foolish choice, they can get home safely - and I"ll take any others who need a ride.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *churndash* 
I love my parents and I know they were doing what they thought was right but it wasn't right for me. I think I would have been a lot happier with some rules.

And that's the key - it depends on the individual kid and the parents in question.


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## lorijds (Jun 6, 2002)

This is such a great discussion. It's really made me think very concretely about why we have certain "guidelines" in our house and why we are totally winging it sometimes.

I do think a lot depends upon the child. Our oldest totally resists any type of structure, but is also occasionally lacking in motivation and focus. So we have to work on providing her with a structure that helps her be motivated and focus on the things she wants to do (like being good at the violin) and needs to do (like keeping a bare minimum of cleanliness in her room so that the ants don't over run it, the dog doesn't eat food off her left over plates and puke on her bed, that sort of thing).

My youngest is OVERLY focused and is very hung up on details. A very high stress child. Helping her work and live within a *less* structured life has been something of a goal for us. I'm talking a child who, in 2nd grade, would spend 3 hours, crying, on her homework--not because her teacher assigned a bunch of homework, not because we made her or had any expectations, but because she wanted to write it all PERFECTLY without ANY eraser marks or mistakes or sloppiness. As opposed to my older child who would turn a crumpled, ripped, stained paper with illegible writing in (she now types most of her homework). It's been a learning experience for all of us.

After reading these posts, I see where my husband and I are "stricter" than some parents, but not as strict as others. Basically, we work on the assumption that our kids are reasonable and trustworthy. We can work on this because they have shown us that they are. I know not everyone is this lucky with their family life, and I am very aware and appreciative of our kids. I have a wonderful friend who has a daughter who is hell bent on self destructing; I know we are lucky.

We don't have any hard and fast rules for our kids, just like we don't have any hard and fast rules in our marriage. Basically, we're trying to work together to have a household that we all find safe and enjoyable. If the kids ask us to do something that seems out of the ordinary, if they disagree with us, or if there is some surliness that exceeds what we feel is acceptable, we'll talk about it. Typically either we aren't getting something, or the kid is being a kid (developmentally) and not really thinking about the family unit as a whole, something like that. We just discuss what is going on, and then try to come to a mutually acceptable conclusion.

Example--DD#1, who is smart as heck, got a D last semester in math (this after years of As in math). She wasn't grounded necessarily, but she did have to replace some free time with some extra math study time. We discussed her grade, what her problems in the class were, and how she could address this. We suggested the extra study time, and she agreed it could be helpful. It was (though frankly, not to the point *I* would like). Our goal wasn't so much to punish as it was to help her evaluate how to manage her time, what her strengths and weaknesses were, and how she could improve her work and understanding in this class. She knows we continue to monitor her grades online. Frankly, she likes to ask "Did you see me ace that test? Is it showing I missed any assignments?" She doesn't see it as controlling so much as us being involved and helping her.

Am I contributing anything to this discussion, or just rambling? I don't know. I do know that, even though I disagree with some of the opinions and parenting styles that have been discussed, it has been nice to see what works for others. I appreciate being forced to evaluate why I am uncomfortable with Dar's daughter watching "Rocky Horror Picture Show" at age 7, but not at all uncomfortable with my children watching "Monty Python's Holy Grail" at that age, for example. Or why I am comfortable with NOT checking my oldest daughter's email, but also have not yet approving a facebook account. I think that sometimes my gut responses are not always right, because they are based on culture as well as my own upbringing; and sometimes I do not want my biases, ingrained indoctrinations and personal likes/dislikes to guide what I do in my family. The constant reevaluation and new perspectives are great. I appreciate everyone's input and discussion.


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## lorijds (Jun 6, 2002)

Just wanted to add, Dar, that I'm not picking on you or thinking you are a bad parent. Just using your post as an example. As in:

Me reading Dar's post and thinking in my head: "OMG, she let a 7 year old watch Rocky Horror?! WTF, that is waay too adult and mature."

And then "She seems like such a good parent, I know she wouldn't intentionally screw up her kid, why would she do such a thing?"

And then "Well, is it really that bad? Is it worse than Disney?"

And then "I guess it's probably not worse than "The Holy Grail."

And then "Why did I have such a bad reaction to the thought of Rocky Horror?"

And then "Is it because there is so much more overt, crazy sex? Why do I not mind them watching stuff like "Lord of the Rings" with its violence, or some stupid disney movie with its sexism and consumerism, but I object to "Rocky Horror"? Is it because I'm going along with what's acceptable in society at large, or do I really feel this way? Or is it because I *LIKE* "the Holy Grail" and "Lord of the Rings" and I don't really want to watch "Rocky Horror" over and over again? Am I just rationalizing what I'll let my kids watch, based on what *I* want to watch?"

That's what I mean, when I say that Dar's post made me think.

And I suppose the rest of my other post could be shortened to say: We assume our kids respect and trust us and that they want a safe and happy place to live, and we treat them the same way. We all talk. We all honestly enjoy and respect each other. We try to make parenting/family decisions based on this.

I blabber too much. Really, I'm just trying to avoid the laundry. I hate the laundry.


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## churndash (Mar 25, 2009)

Quote:

Mine don't have a curfew. Doesn't mean I don't care.
I never suggested that you didn't care. I was only relating how *I* felt as a teenager. (which was a long time ago before there were cell phones and you could just call mom and dad if you wanted to come home).

Anyway, I was just trying to offer a different perspective. My parents thought they were doing the right thing by giving me space and privacy and letting me do my own thing but I was really overwhelmed and even scared sometimes. I didn't tell my parents about these feelings because I didn't want to let them down when they thought I was so mature. And since I had some friends whose parents were super strict, I felt ungrateful that I didn't love the freedom I had.

I think my opinion and experiences are valid, even if they aren't the same as everyone else's here.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *churndash* 
I grew up in a very liberal, permissive household and I got into all sorts of trouble as a teenager - not trouble with my parents, of course, because they felt I was old enough to make my own mistakes and pay the consequences.

But I wasn't really. I wasn't old enough at 16 to understand that getting drunk and passing out at some party would result in waking up wondering if a strange guy had sex with you while you were unconscious and how horrible that moment would feel.

There were times I felt that my parents didn't even really care about me. Some of my friends had to be home by midnight - I had no curfew. Didn't they care if I made it home at night?

I love my parents and I know they were doing what they thought was right but it wasn't right for me. I think I would have been a lot happier with some rules.

I have rules for my kids, including my teen, and they are in place to help her, not punish her. Sometimes she is angry when I won't let her do something, but that's okay. It would be impossible for a child to go through life never being mad at their parent.

I also grew up with liberal, permissive parents. I know that kids don't come with instructions and that different people with differing ideologies will approach parenting completely....well.....different. It's taken me a long time to forgive my parents for what I consider to be benign neglect and self-centeredness, but we still aren't close.

My parents were very hung up on "natural consequences" and "independence." Apparently, my mom left me alone for short periods of time starting at age four, which I find appalling. I never got into any trouble as a teen; mostly because I was just lucky. I drank and had sex. But I'm also not a reckless person, so I always used protection and never drank and drove or anything. Because I didn't have much in the way of support at home and was picked on at school, I was always looking for approval and pretty much kept my nose clean.

My parents, though, were also not involved in my life at all past the age of 12 or so. We never did "family" things. They were total homebodies that only watched TV and read, didn't like board games or anything. They never had company over.

I was and am somewhat extroverted, and was always out of the house. What ended up happening was that I married a complete loser when I was 18 and moved halfway across the country. The loser and I got divorced a short while later, but I never moved back home. I feel closer to my friends than I do to my family.

So I guess that for me, regulation of my kids is not so important as connection. I think that when kids have a good connection with their parents, and their parents are good people (as I think I am) and good role models, then they will naturally tend to do the right thing.


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

lorijds I just want to say that I loved your posts and found it to be perfect lunchtime reading ... sorry about the laundry


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *churndash* 
I never suggested that you didn't care. I was only relating how *I* felt as a teenager. (which was a long time ago before there were cell phones and you could just call mom and dad if you wanted to come home).

LOL I grew up long before cell phones. I don't recall ever being somewhere (wait - there was the golf course situation.....) where I could not get to a phone (public or home) to call my folks to come get me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *churndash* 
I think my opinion and experiences are valid, even if they aren't the same as everyone else's here.

Didn't say it wasn't. I can understand that you may have felt your parents didn't care by not giving you a curfew. There are ways to avoid that feeling, which is what I was describing.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mtiger* 
However, let's not forget that not ALL teens feel that getting drunk (let alone to the point of passing out) is a great or fun thing to do. Neither of my two - or their friends (who range in age from 14 - 19) - drink. Both of mine know that, if they want a glass of wine or beer or whatever, I will allow them to have it. At home. Not their friends, though. That's up to their parents. The only time either of them have was when A (15 at the time, I think) had a half glass of champagne on New Year's Eve.

Mine don't have a curfew. Doesn't mean I don't care. What it does mean is that it depends on the particular situation. Who they're going with, how they're getting there/back, where they're going. And whether or not it's a school night. We usually come up with a mutually acceptable time - and a call is expected if they're not going to be home by then. But ya know.... I offer the same courtesy. If I'm going out, I let them know when I plan to be home, and I call if I'm going to be late.

They also know that they can call, regardless of the time, if they need me to come get them. So if one of their friends DOES make a foolish choice, they can get home safely - and I"ll take any others who need a ride.

And that's the key - it depends on the individual kid and the parents in question.

That's very much how I was raised -- given lots of freedom, no curfew (just situation-specific, mutually-agreed-upon times to be home), calling if I was going to be late, having a glass of wine at dinner (or a beer), etc. It was absolutely ideal, and I am so pleased to see my kids growing with the kind of independence and maturity that make me think they will handle the same style of parenting equally well. Actually, I think most kids who are given freedom and treated with respect from the start WILL respond well to increased freedom and responsibility as teens. IME, it's the kids who are raised in strict households who rebel in dangerous ways. When you're raised with freedom and responsibility, you appreciate what you have and you don't try to screw it up!


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lorijds* 
Am I just rationalizing what I'll let my kids watch, based on what *I* want to watch?"

There's a pretty long list of stuff Lina will only be allowed to watch with dh while I'm well away from the house. Or she'll have to tell me where to close my eyes.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lorijds* 
Just wanted to add, Dar, that I'm not picking on you or thinking you are a bad parent. Just using your post as an example. As in:

Me reading Dar's post and thinking in my head: "OMG, she let a 7 year old watch Rocky Horror?! WTF, that is waay too adult and mature."

And then "She seems like such a good parent, I know she wouldn't intentionally screw up her kid, why would she do such a thing?"

And then "Well, is it really that bad? Is it worse than Disney?"

And then "I guess it's probably not worse than "The Holy Grail."

And then "Why did I have such a bad reaction to the thought of Rocky Horror?"

And then "Is it because there is so much more overt, crazy sex? Why do I not mind them watching stuff like "Lord of the Rings" with its violence, or some stupid disney movie with its sexism and consumerism, but I object to "Rocky Horror"? Is it because I'm going along with what's acceptable in society at large, or do I really feel this way? Or is it because I *LIKE* "the Holy Grail" and "Lord of the Rings" and I don't really want to watch "Rocky Horror" over and over again? Am I just rationalizing what I'll let my kids watch, based on what *I* want to watch?"

That's what I mean, when I say that Dar's post made me think.

And I suppose the rest of my other post could be shortened to say: We assume our kids respect and trust us and that they want a safe and happy place to live, and we treat them the same way. We all talk. We all honestly enjoy and respect each other. We try to make parenting/family decisions based on this.

I blabber too much. Really, I'm just trying to avoid the laundry. I hate the laundry.

I love how you think, it's a lot like I do.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I like how both of you think!









On the other hand, when Rain was 7 she was completely traumatized by a PG-13 movie, and she still clearly remembers this epsiode as one of my biggest screw-ups. She wanted to rent Gorillas in the Mist from the library, and I thought it would be cool... great story about a woman scientist learning about gorillas, sort of adventurous but uplifting... yup, let's get it. All goes well until the end of the movie, when a shadowy figure with a mackete creeps into Dian Fossey's tent as she sleeps. Rain starts to panic - "I don't like this? Is he going to kill her? I don't want him to kill her?" I reassure her - nope, it'll be fine, I just saw her interviewed the other day so I know she's alive, someone is probably going to rescue her soon... and so on. She's nervously watching and waiting, and then the hand chops down and the scene ends. Real panic, and I'm really confised but saying no, no, it's a dream or something, I *know* she doesn't die... cut to the funeral. Rain is sobbing...

I run to the internet and realize that I have confused Jane Goodall, who worked with chimps and is very much alive, with Diane Fossey, who worked with gorillas and... isn't. Oops. Yup, big oops. I felt so bad...

But Rocky Horror was all camp and singing and fun dance moves, and knowing when to hold up your lighter and when to throw what... and she watched a bunch of Monty Python at that age too... just fun stuff.

Oh, and she also watched the first 10 minutes of The Last Emperor at that age (also PG-13) while being babysat by a homeschooling family... and ran off shrieking (not literally, but, you know). The mom was very apologetic.. she thought it would be a good way for all the kids to learn some history... but the movie opens with a guy cutting his wrists...

I'm rambling on, clearly...

dar


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

My mom took me to see Gorillas in the Mist when I was (I can't remember my exact age, but it was at the Aloha theatre, and we lived in Aloha from when I was 11-18) around 11-13. It seriously traumatized me and I still had nightmares about it into my early 20's.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
I can't remember my exact age, but it was at the Aloha theatre, and we lived in Aloha from when I was 11-18

Where is Aloha?


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
Where is Aloha?









Michigan, Oregon, Washington, or Louisiana.








, that suburb out by Beaverton.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Michigan, Oregon, Washington, or Louisiana.











Oregon.

and in Oregon, it's pronounced ah-lo-wa


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lorijds* 
And then "Is it because there is so much more overt, crazy sex? Why do I not mind them watching stuff like "Lord of the Rings" with its violence, or some stupid disney movie with its sexism and consumerism, but I object to "Rocky Horror"? Is it because I'm going along with what's acceptable in society at large, or do I really feel this way? Or is it because I *LIKE* "the Holy Grail" and "Lord of the Rings" and I don't really want to watch "Rocky Horror" over and over again? Am I just rationalizing what I'll let my kids watch, based on what *I* want to watch?"

This part kind of makes me laugh. I could probably stomach Rocky Horror Picture Show one or two more times in my life (I've seen it twice), but no more than that. It's just not my thing at all. OTOH, I have no problem telling ds1 that "sure - if it won't bother you, you can watch [fill in blank] at your friend's house, but you're not watching it here...at least not when I'm home" (which is pretty much always). DH has even less stomach for gore than I do, I think, so ds1 is out of luck. I also don't want him bringing any really freaky looking video cases into our house, because I don't want to have to explain them to dd and ds2. So...ds1 is definitely limited by what I want to watch, as are dd and ds2 (to a lesser degree, because I can tune out things I consider to be inane more easily than I can tune out things I consider freaky or gross)...but I'm very upfront about _why_ they can't watch them.

DH and I even do that. I have movies that I only put on after dh has gone to bed or whatever, because he doesn't like them that much (I'm a huge fan of 80s action films - pretty much all of them - and dh doesn't like them as much as I do). He only puts on certain music if I'm not around. I don't tell him he can't listen to such-and-such, but he knows I don't like it, so he doesn't play it, yk?


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Michigan, Oregon, Washington, or Louisiana.








, that suburb out by Beaverton.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 









Oregon.

and in Oregon, it's pronounced ah-lo-wa

Oh.

I thought you were talking about the Aloha Theater in Hawaii, which is on the Big Island. But there's no town called Aloha there.


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