# What do you think about cub scouts? see #53



## harrietsmama (Dec 10, 2001)

My son really wants to join and everything looks alright, any problems with the general concept/organization? I know there's always a person here or there that can ruin the fun, I'm more interested in the whole program. Thanks!


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## Frumpy (Jun 14, 2006)

My brother did cub scouts all the way through to become an Eagle Scout. I wholeheartedly think that scouting help make him a responsible, thoughtful, and selfless person. He's really a terrific guy.

My husband also did scouting through the Life Scout (one step below Eagle), and he considers scouting to be his most cherished childhood memories. He did a lot of really neat things (especially outdoors) and was exposed to a lot more than he would have been otherwise.

I hope that helps!


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Are they related to boy scouts?


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## Aufilia (Jul 31, 2007)

Both of my brothers and my husband were boy scouts (2 became Eagle Scouts) and I know they all had good experiences. Some people have reservations about the scouting organization in general because it has shown some anti-gay tendencies. You might want to research that a bit, but I doubt it would come into play at the cub scout level.


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## ShaggyDaddy (Jul 5, 2006)

I grew up in the boy scouts.

I do not like the boy scouts of america.

Among many more abstract problems I have with them; They have policies which target (and exclude) homosexuals, athiests, and agnostics. These policies have been taken up to the supreme court and upheld due to the fact that it is a private organization.

Quote:

"The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God."

"Boy Scouts of America believes that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the obligations in the Scout Oath and Scout Law to be morally straight and clean in thought, word, and deed. The conduct of youth members must be in compliance with the Scout Oath and Law, and membership in Boy Scouts of America is contingent upon the willingness to accept Scouting's values and beliefs."
I have a big problem with these statements, so neither me nor my kids will be supporting an organization which deliberatly and consistantly discriminates against people on the basis of religion or sexual orientation.


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## Malva (Nov 2, 2005)

Around here, cub scouts and brownies are pretty churchy so for my family, it wouldn't work. Something to consider if you're not religious (or of another religion).


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Cub scouts are baby boy scouts. I'm sure that the overall program is fun and does some good things for the included members. I'm not discounting that at all. My problem is that there are boys and men that they will not allow to join / lead.

They do have a particular stance on gays and athiests -- they exclude both from leadership and require boys to believe in God (or at least say they do). While I doubt your child would hear about these stances, especially in Cub Scouts, I think you need to be sure you are comfortable with what the entire organization stands for. I, and my family, are not. My husband was an Eagle scout, plus a leader for years. He says he can no longer support the organization and is not willing to send them money, including dues and fees.

They are a private organizatoin and can believe and advance whatever they like. But I don't have to support them and we don't, even though DS would enjoy being a cub scout. Instead we do Adventure Guides through the Y which doesn't have the same exclusionary stances in place.


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## DisplacedYooper (Aug 10, 2007)

My husband grew up in the boy scouts and says the extent to which the official line is toed varies greatly among individual troops. You might want to see what kind of vibe you get from your local group and go from there.

I don't know dues is split between local and national levels, but too much direct support of BSA national would be a no-go for me now matter how inclusive the local troop was.


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## LionessMom (Mar 12, 2008)

my son has been in cub scouts and is now a boy scout. he is a much better kid than he was. he loves the weeklong camp in the summer.

no on ehas ever said anything about religion or sexual oreintation to him. they say god in their oath or whatever but DS says that you can mean anything by god. a higher power, nature force, etc. he says it is a name that all religions give their higher being/consciousness. he actually read about this when he was studying Buddhism. his troop used to meet at the church but now it meets at the fire station. he likes helping. he says the uniforms make him feel special.
i understand why some people dont like BS or CS, for us it has been beneficial.
forgot to add.. with us being lower income, he received his first uniform free and was given a scholarship so we didnt pay dues for 4 years.


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## Malva (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DisplacedYooper* 
You might want to see what kind of vibe you get from your local group and go from there.

That's good advice.


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## grniys (Aug 22, 2006)

I love Cub Scouts! Both my brother's were Cub & then Boy Scouts. They loved it. They made a lot of great friends through it, did a lot of fun activities, it was really great for them. I hope my son develops an interest in joining.

I'm a pretty religious person, but I don't really recall them pushing the religion factor much. But then again, my mom was den mother for my brother's troop and she was an atheist, so that may have been why in my brother's troop. But I went to some of the family events and don't really recall there being a huge focus on religion.


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

i have a problem with them because they don't allow gay people in, they won't allow gay leaders, they are para-military, they have cultural imperlist tendancies (sometimes out right racist) toward native americans, they want you to believe in god, they are very into people follow rules, they are a homosocial (ie only boys allowed) group.

dp was/is an eagle scout. He wants to be able to send his "eagle scout" card thing back and say that he doesn't want to be an eagle scout for all the reason above, except he can't find it to send it back.


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## Let It Be (Sep 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tbone_kneegrabber* 
they are para-military

This is our biggest reason for planning to keep our DS out.


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## infraread (Jun 3, 2003)

My son wanted to join cub scouts this year so badly, and I did go and sign him up. Lol, that's exactly what my husband told me too... "you do realize you just signed him up in a paramilitary organization, right?"
FTR, DH was a scout, and is military. But he wanted me to be aware of how the scouts function. Sign ups were recent, and we haven't heard anything from them yet so I have no real experience to share other than in cub scouts, parents are very much involved and so you would have a chance to see for yourself if it's something you want your child involved in. That's my plan, anyway.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

For many of the reasons listed above (and the fact that the BSA has a long standing issue with the UUA), we will not sign our kids up for cub or boy scouts, despite them being very popular and well funded in our area. DH was a scout and has many fond memories of scouting. But we ethically cannot have our children involved with the organization which both discriminates based on sexual orientation AND would require our children to state a religious belief that we as a family do not believe.

I am going to my first parent meeting for the Earth Scouts on Thursday, an alternative for boy and girl scouts.


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## dewi (Jul 26, 2004)

Very sadly I have to inform you that the *Scouts have become a homophobic organization*. The values they teach are intolerance of gays. They were not always like that (sexulity used to be your own business).

My brother was an Eagle Scout and he is gay, he is a great man and scouting contributed to it.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Since they discriminate based on religion and sexual orientation, we will not be participating.


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## annethcz (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DisplacedYooper* 
My husband grew up in the boy scouts and says the extent to which the official line is toed varies greatly among individual troops. You might want to see what kind of vibe you get from your local group and go from there.

I was going to say the same thing. A few weeks ago I asked my cousin what he thought about the issue. My cousin is an eagle scout and is also gay. He talked to me quite a bit about the infamous court case and got into specifics that I don't feel comfortable recounting for fear of misstating something. However, the gist of what he told me was that boy scouting was a wonderful experience for him, and he'd highly recommend that I look into the organization for my boys. In the areas that my cousin in familiar with, they practice a sort of 'don't ask, don't tell' policy in regards to homosexuality.

Now I'm not defending the boy scouts, and I still have reservations about the organization. But the fact that my (gay) cousin wholeheartedly endorses the boy scouts does say something to me.


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## recycledbook (Sep 10, 2008)

as an athiest i would NOt let my son join thank you all for pointing this stuff out about gay reservations and all i would have never known


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tbone_kneegrabber* 
i have a problem with them because they don't allow gay people in, they won't allow gay leaders, they are para-military, they have cultural imperlist tendancies (sometimes out right racist) toward native americans, they want you to believe in god, they are very into people follow rules, they are a homosocial (ie only boys allowed) group.

dp was/is an eagle scout. He wants to be able to send his "eagle scout" card thing back and say that he doesn't want to be an eagle scout for all the reason above, except he can't find it to send it back.

yeah, i pretty much think boy scouts is a creepy organization. if you look into the history, i believe you'll see that scouting emerged around the turn of the 20th century as a means of creating "healthy" citizens. really, it was part of a larger cultural project of eugenics, and a lot of the exclusionary policies it has to this day reflect that.

i personally would not want my child to do scouting, but if they were really interested, i'd probably let them decide for themselves.


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## Nautical (Mar 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tbone_kneegrabber* 
*i have a problem with them because they don't allow gay people in, they won't allow gay leaders, they are para-military, they have cultural imperlist tendancies (sometimes out right racist) toward native americans, they want you to believe in god, they are very into people follow rules*, they are a homosocial (ie only boys allowed) group.

dp was/is an eagle scout. He wants to be able to send his "eagle scout" card thing back and say that he doesn't want to be an eagle scout for all the reason above, except he can't find it to send it back.

These are my problems with BSA as well. As for the only boys (I don't have a problem with that), once you reach the age of 14, there is a branch of BSA called Explorer Scouts that allows girls. My Dh was a scout his whole life and an Eagle Scout. I do have a lot of respect for how his scouting experience made him a better person. Our boys will be in BSA because of my husband's history with them, but he knows my problems with the organization and their thoughts on homosexuality.

I was also a Girl Scout my whole life and then an adult Girl Scout (who incidentally grew up in an area without a GSUSA camp, and the local BSA camp allowed my troop [ages 15+] to attend ever summer even though we were girls). Girl Scouts and Girl Guides are not homophobic. In fact, this organization has done a lot to try to combat the atmosphere that BSA has promoted about scouting in general, going as far to create a line of rainbow GSUSA merchandise that read: "Girl Scouts celebrate diversity!"







: GSUSA allows gay members and leaders as well as male adult Girl Scouts. Because of this, I certainly have no problems with the Girl Scouts.


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## harrietsmama (Dec 10, 2001)

Wow! Well, my son is sooo excited because they took _all_ the first grade boys to an in school assembly, not noted to the parents first! and he is already having shyness and social problems so now I feel stuck. I am so not into anything that is even don't ask don't tell about being gay. That really bothers me. And while I have no issues with a higher power and the pursuit of understanding and harmony with a person's idea of what that means, but organized religion is something I am not comfortable with. On the other hand, it is about the only group thing available in our area unless we do 4H and add lots of animals to our already large and varied menagerie, and I have no idea how much 'group' ness there is involved. I checked out the cubscouts table at the school open house and the moms I met were pretty cool, but I don't feel comfortable with the organization as a whole, how do I back pedal with my sweet little sensitive boy? The Earth scouts sound great, and I'd be willing to start a chapter if I had the mental tolerance - I'm mentally disabled and can't even keep a job, and we live so rurally and in one of the most Religious Rightwing areas of the country - a little over an hour from Grand Rapids, MI. Sigh.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harrietsmama* 
Wow! Well, my son is sooo excited because they took _all_ the first grade boys to an in school assembly, not noted to the parents first!

This is one of the things that annoy me. Boy Scouts are allowed in schools as if they're school-sanctioned, yet they don't have to follow federal regulations because they're hiding behind the "private organization" banner. If it were me (and I'm sure it will be in a few years), I would just explain to my son that they believe in things we don't and that we're not going to permit him to be part of them. There are other things I wouldn't let my children do - go to Vacation Bible School at a Baptist church, for instance - and this is just one on the list.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harrietsmama* 
And while I have no issues with a higher power and the pursuit of understanding and harmony with a person's idea of what that means, but organized religion is something I am not comfortable with.

I would have no problem with this. In fact, I would encourage it. They don't really seem to do that, though. If you exclude atheists, then you're not exploring what the pursuit of higher power means for everyone. Plus they don't recognize the Unitarians, so they're no go for me on that, too.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harrietsmama* 
it is about the only group thing available in our area unless we do 4H and add lots of animals to our already large and varied menagerie, and I have no idea how much 'group' ness there is involved.

I was in 4-H and didn't raise animals. I went to consumer judging, extemporaneous speaking (I can't remember their name for it now). I learned a lot from 4-H, and it's something I would encourage my children to do. You definitely can be involved and get a sense of group spirit, especially in terms of rooting for the people from your group even if you share diverse interests.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

My son can't be involved in an anti-gay organization. We will try FFA or 4H when he is older.
We camp on our own.
In FFA, you don't have to keep the animal at your house.


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## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harrietsmama* 
Wow! Well, my son is sooo excited because they took _all_ the first grade boys to an in school assembly, not noted to the parents first! and he is already having shyness and social problems so now I feel stuck. I am so not into anything that is even don't ask don't tell about being gay. That really bothers me. And while I have no issues with a higher power and the pursuit of understanding and harmony with a person's idea of what that means, but organized religion is something I am not comfortable with. On the other hand, it is about the only group thing available in our area unless we do 4H and add lots of animals to our already large and varied menagerie, and I have no idea how much 'group' ness there is involved. I checked out the cubscouts table at the school open house and the moms I met were pretty cool, but I don't feel comfortable with the organization as a whole, how do I back pedal with my sweet little sensitive boy? The Earth scouts sound great, and I'd be willing to start a chapter if I had the mental tolerance - I'm mentally disabled and can't even keep a job, and we live so rurally and in one of the most Religious Rightwing areas of the country - a little over an hour from Grand Rapids, MI. Sigh.

Heather, 4H isn't all about animals. They do a lot of other things, too, so you don't have to keep animals. You might want to check it out. I know GR also has Campfire Girls and Boys, so there might be chapters out your way. It's worth looking into. When ds1 gets a bit older, we're going to look into either Campfire or 4H. Dh was a boy scout, but for the reasons mentioned by pps, we're not going that route with our boys.


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## Neuromancer (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybee* 
Heather, 4H isn't all about animals. They do a lot of other things, too, so you don't have to keep animals. You might want to check it out.

This is exactly what I was going to say. I did 4H for a year or two after I dropped out of Girl Scouts (the leader was _mean_), and I never had an animal other than the family dog (who was not involved in my 4H projects). I remember enjoying 4H.


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## Kyamo (Jun 14, 2006)

Does anyone know if there are any of the same issues with Girl Guides/Boy Scouts in Canada? I'm pretty sure I remember the word God being in the little paragraph you say, but what about the homophobia/atheist exclusion part?


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## ChetMC (Aug 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kyamo* 
Does anyone know if there are any of the same issues with Girl Guides/Boy Scouts in Canada? I'm pretty sure I remember the word God being in the little paragraph you say, but what about the homophobia/atheist exclusion part?

I'm wondering about this as well. I was involved in Guiding in Canada, and my dad and brother were both very involved in the Scouting movement. The politics of the organization weren't something I saw though, not at the community level. The stuff that the kids internalized from their involvement were things like the importance of helping your community, respecting and caring for yourself, self-sufficiency, helping others, teamwork, independent learning and mastery of skills, etc. At the community level I only saw positives.


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## ShaggyDaddy (Jul 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kyamo* 
Does anyone know if there are any of the same issues with Girl Guides/Boy Scouts in Canada? I'm pretty sure I remember the word God being in the little paragraph you say, but what about the homophobia/atheist exclusion part?

Well I know the Girl Scouts of the USA have much better religious guidelines in my opinion (Girl Guides and Girl scouts of the usa are both part of the same Association WAGGGS)

Their religious policy in the USA is that you must pledge to god OR your religion, they changed this to allow for people who are not monothiests (in other words you are not required to mention the word "god" in your pledge like in the BSA)

The Girl scouts of the USA has much gentler verbage in their policy about sexual orientation. It would be nice if they put in a simple "we do not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation", but I "No policy" is at least better than the BSA.

Quote:

Girl Scouts of the U.S.A. respects the values and beliefs of each of its members and does not intrude into personal matters. Therefore, there are no membership policies on sexual preference.


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## MrsAprilMay (Jul 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
For many of the reasons listed above (and the fact that the BSA has a long standing issue with the UUA), we will not sign our kids up for cub or boy scouts, despite them being very popular and well funded in our area. DH was a scout and has many fond memories of scouting. But we ethically cannot have our children involved with the organization which both discriminates based on sexual orientation AND would require our children to state a religious belief that we as a family do not believe.

I am going to my first parent meeting for the Earth Scouts on Thursday, an alternative for boy and girl scouts.

Thanks for the link. There isn't a group in my state yet, but maybe there will be some interest. I always wanted to do girl scouts. I remember my mom took me to one meeting, and then we never went back. Of course Girls Scouts and Boy Scouts are two separate things.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I was in 4-H and loved it, and I never had a single animal. I would have loved that too had it been an option, but they had tons of other things going on. It really is a great group.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

A friend of mine has 3 sons and is very against the discrimination of the boy scouts. I think she explained something about them not being inclusive and allowing all boys in and wouldn't it be terrible if one of their friends wanted to join but couldn't because he was that kind of boy and did they really want to join an organization that didn't let everyone in? Or, what if they found out later that THEY couldn't be in scouts? I think she kind of left it up to them - but with a heavy dose of discussion on what it means to support an organization that doesn't support everyone.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hoopin' Mama* 
My son can't be involved in an anti-gay organization. We will try FFA or 4H when he is older.
We camp on our own.
In FFA, you don't have to keep the animal at your house.

4-H doesn't have to involve animals either and they can join at age 5. There are arts and crafts and other skills they can sign up for that aren't animal based. I took cooking, ceramics, knitting etc.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Because of the reasons already listed our DS is not allowed to join the boy scouts (or cub scouts). We also do not support them in fundraising efforts.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DisplacedYooper* 
My husband grew up in the boy scouts and says the extent to which the official line is toed varies greatly among individual troops. You might want to see what kind of vibe you get from your local group and go from there.

I don't know dues is split between local and national levels, but too much direct support of BSA national would be a no-go for me now matter how inclusive the local troop was.

But keep in mind that your money and your time is still going towards a xenophobic organization. There are other options out there and if ALL of the people currently in boy scouts who disagree with their policies left, the other organizations would thrive OR the boy scouts would be forced to reconsider their stances.


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## MamaRhi (Nov 24, 2001)

I am a GS leader, my daughter is a junior GS, both my DPs are former Boy Scouts and my son just started Tiger/Cub Scouts. Girl Scouts in my area does outright state that they do not discriminate based on sexual orientation (or race, religion, economic status, disability, etc). While my DD was at GS camp, her camp counselor stopped one of the children from talking excessively about the Bible and said "Some people aren't religious, so we shouldn't talk so much about the Bible here." My DD's respect for the organization doubled at that point. As for Boy/Cub Scouts, I was very much against the idea in the beginning but I believe in giving things a chance to prove me wrong. So when DS wanted to do it, and our old homeschool friends needed another 1st grader for their Tiger den, I relented. Now, his dad is very much involved too and dad is not straight, nor Christian, so I am trusting him to decide if we should be supporting this activity or not. But as a child, I don't think my DS would see the justification of his sister being a girl scout and him not being able to be a boy scout. I think it may seem sexist without a broader understanding of the politics. When he's old enough for that, I'll explain and let him decide to keep going. In the mean time, this is helping he and his dad bond and helping him with his social skills (not an opportunity to pass up with a kid on the autism spectrum).

For the record, both kids are also Spiral Scouts. While that organization is much more accepting of our family structure and spirituality, it is not as organized as GSUSA or BSA and often frustrates me.


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## LauraN (May 18, 2004)

Thanks for all the info! Every boy around these parts seems to be in boy scouts, and DS seems to want to do it, too. Boy Scouts itself is not an option for us b/c of their discriminatory stands.

So I was looking into Adventure Scouts instead. They seem to be fairly religious, too? Does anyone know if that's true? I don't mind if they encourage kids to learn about their own religions, but I wouldn't want anyone telling my child that their beliefs are not acceptable (we have uncommon beliefs like reincarnation). In fact, I would prefer that there not be much discussion about the specifics of religion at all.

I do like that they seem to have groups for all ages, so DD (4) could join, too, and not be segregated by gender.

Also, how would I find troops in my area? As far as I could see, the Web site doesn't point you to specific troops... Is this a YMCA thing? Should I call them?

I'm glad I stumbled on this discussion b/c I really am opposed to the Boy Scouts organization, but love the idea of the activities, camping, etc. that they do.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2* 
But keep in mind that your money and your time is still going towards a xenophobic organization. There are other options out there and if ALL of the people currently in boy scouts who disagree with their policies left, the other organizations would thrive OR the boy scouts would be forced to reconsider their stances.

The money supporting these organization at the national level trumps, for us, any good/positive things that would come from participating on the local level. Even if sexuality or religion were never mentioned at the local level, I still can't write a check to the overall organization.

Unfortunately, in many parts of the country the Boy Scouts serve as the defacto teen/youth group for local Catholic and Mormon churches and they are unlikely to support any chance in BS's stance on these issues. I suspect they would outnumber those who might leave for the opposite reason.

We explained our issues with boy scouts to DS as a 1st grader and he chose not to join. But then it was a very concrete thing from him as all of his godparents are gay and he could really understand not being part of an organization that disapproved of these people that he loved.

To the OP -- is there a YMCA near you? DS and DH have really enjoyed their Adventure Guides program and it has a more inclusive stance on both religion and sexual orientation. Despite the fact that the "C" in YMCA is "Christian", they seem to have moved way away from that.


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## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

We just signed my son up for Adventure Guides through the YMCA. They have a huge organization here in northern Illinois. I like it because it isn't as much of a time hog as the scouts seem to be. You meet once a month and that usually includes a fun activity.

Not sure if we will do scouts or not. I think my son would absolutely love it and the activities as he is really into the outdoors.


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## east carolina (Apr 5, 2006)

I live in the Czech Republic and there are scout troop here too. I'm not sure about their policy regarding homosexuals, but you don't have to be religious to join and you don't have to ever mention god, nor do they talk about religion much, if at all.

What bothers me about the scouts here as elsewhere is that they split boys and girls apart and much of their activity is paramilitary. Keeping sentry at camp all night, being marched around for miles, being dropped off miles away form camp and being told to find your way there blind, etc... (I don't know if they do this in the States, too, but here they still do) I love the idea of a kids' troop that explores nature and goes camping, helps out in the community and all that good stuff, but for my son I will be looking for an organization that is integrated and treats children with respect, so not the local boy or girl scouts.

DH and SIL were both scouts here and while they made some good friends and it was a learning experience and they had a beautiful camp, DH is also very critical of his experience and he left his troop at 15 and never looked back. He supports me in not enrolling our DC with the scouts.


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## witchygrrl (Aug 3, 2006)

Dh is an Eagle Scout, and while he'll put it on his resume (employers tend to look favorably on that), he never pays dues and will never recommend anyone to join the BSA because of its religious and anti-gay stances.


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## RadUnschooler (Jan 23, 2008)

Can you tell me what they do? Are there meetings...how often? Do they make stuff at the meetings?


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## bdoody11 (Aug 16, 2005)

I do not support the BSA for all the reasons stated. My DH doesn't have a problem with it







and my BIL and SIL are heavily involved with their two boys. I will say their personal experiences seem very positive and my DNs love it, but again it goes back to what the organization widely believes.

No one here has mentioned Camp Fire USA. It's co-ed and I was a member of it as a young girl. It seems like a pretty cool organization.


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## Phoenix~Mama (Dec 24, 2007)

Wow! I never knew the Boy Scouts became so close minded! That is really awful.

I was in Girl Scouts and enjoyed it. Got my Silver Award, didn't make it to Gold though, as our troop was a little disorganized. lol

And I'm bi... and never had any issues there... *shrugs*


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JSMa* 
Wow! I never knew the Boy Scouts became so close minded! That is really awful.

I was in Girl Scouts and enjoyed it. Got my Silver Award, didn't make it to Gold though, as our troop was a little disorganized. lol

And I'm bi... and never had any issues there... *shrugs*

The GS don't have a problem with sexuality issues, and although their promise includes a reference to God, the girls are permitted and encouraged to say the promise in accordance with their own beliefs. If that icludes another name for a higher power or none at all, that's cool.


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## Aurora (May 1, 2002)

There are also other reasons to be wary of Cub Scouts. I personally have no problem with God being apart of it. What my dh and I do find unsettling is the Oaths the boys take. My ds was all set to start Cub Scouts. We bought the first book and read through it. The boys have to promise to "follow the pack" and obey their leader. Dh and I have a BIG problem with that. We are raising our children to make their own choices and not "follow the pack". Also, I am NOT going to support my child having to _promise_ to obey their cub scout leader. I worry about this mentality and I think the loyalty that is given to the leaders just sets things up for sexual abuse.

*disclaimer* I am not saying that every leader will abuse.

Plus, they lose so many little boys up in the mountains here during scout camp. We live in Utah and we are LDS. Scouting is huge here. We decided that my ds would not participate. My dh does "scout" type activities with ds. Our opinion is not popular amongst our friends, family, and neighbors.

We tried explaining our views to a local leader who was asking why our ds was not attending scouts. He said "Well, they do not really have to do those things." So I asked him if he thought we should be telling and encouraging our boys to make promises, take _oaths_, and then not stick to them. He had nothing else to say except, "just think about it."


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## Pippi L. (Jan 25, 2008)

If I have son I would not let him join Scouts in the States. In Canada, depending on the actual troup, I probably would. As far as I know Scouts here is not anti-homosexual and it includes both boys and girls (though I believe some groups are just for boys, others just for girls, and others co-ed). My husband had a great experience scouting and it really made an impact on him having real leadership opportunities as a teenager -- guiding canoe trips and leading courses. He doesn't like the religion aspect, though. Also, not all groups are created equal.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pippi L.* 
If I have son I would not let him join Scouts in the States. In Canada, depending on the actual troup, I probably would. As far as I know Scouts here is not anti-homosexual and it includes both boys and girls (though I believe some groups are just for boys, others just for girls, and others co-ed).

It is important to note that most of us are discussing Boy Scouts of America (BSA), not Boy Scouting in other countries. Girl Scouts is also a totally separate organization from Boy Scouts.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *readytobedone* 
yeah, i pretty much think boy scouts is a creepy organization. if you look into the history, i believe you'll see that scouting emerged around the turn of the 20th century as a means of creating "healthy" citizens. really, it was part of a larger cultural project of eugenics, and a lot of the exclusionary policies it has to this day reflect that.

Boy scouts were created in 1907 in the UK as a direct result of the Boer War by Robert Baden-Powell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_...n_Baden-Powell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting

Quote:

Scouting, also known as the Scout Movement, is a worldwide youth movement with the stated aim of supporting young people in their physical, mental and spiritual development, so that they may play constructive roles in society.

Scouting began in 1907 when Robert Baden-Powell, Lieutenant General in the British Army, held the first Scouting encampment at Brownsea Island in England. Baden-Powell wrote the principles of Scouting in Scouting for Boys (London, 1908), based on his earlier military books, with influence and support of Frederick Russell Burnham (Chief of Scouts in British Africa), Seton of the Woodcraft Indians, Smith of the Boys' Brigade, and his publisher Pearson. During the first half of the 20th century, the movement grew to encompass three major age groups each for boys (Cub Scout, Boy Scout, Rover Scout) and, in 1910, a new organization, Girl Guides, was created for girls (Brownie Guide, Girl Guide and Girl Scout, Ranger Guide).
No mention of eugenics, though frankly everything was laced with eugenics back then. If you ever read about the Siege of Mafeking, during the Boer War, BP wrote some interesting commentary on tactics used by the cadet corps
who

Quote:

he was sufficiently impressed with both their courage and the equanimity with which they performed their tasks to use them later as an object lesson in the first chapter of Scouting for Boys.
btw, BP's scouting book was called "scouting for boys" which always cracks my dh up.

BP is/was a national hero in the UK.

The entire scouts discrimination issue really disturbs my dh. He is from the UK and believes the strongly conservative religious nature of scouting came after his time/is an American thing. But even so, he is embarrassed/upset that a group that meant so much to him has taken such a horrible turn. He wonders if it was always like that - like finding out that a favorite uncle was beating his wife or something and you never knew, ya know?


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## Aufilia (Jul 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harrietsmama* 
On the other hand, it is about the only group thing available in our area unless we do 4H and add lots of animals to our already large and varied menagerie, and I have no idea how much 'group' ness there is involved.

Ditto what others said, 4-H doesn't have to be animals and it doesn't have to mean lots of new animals. I was in 4-H in jr high and high school and my project was cats -- I showed housecats, the plain ol' boring kind that you already own. It's a spectacular organization, welcoming to everyone, and very down-to-earth about encouraging kids to be themselves even within the organization. I was a 4-H leader until a couple months before DD arrived and the program is very much based around best practices in child development, from non-competitive participation for the youngest up to encouraging the older members to take lead roles and really work for what they earn. Aside from animals, I know our county has programs like computers, motorcycles, cooking, sewing, arts/crafts, performance art, gardening, and all kinds of stuff.

And yeah, Camp Fire is a possibility, too. It's closer in theme/practice to Scouts. (I was in all 3 organizations at one time or another.)


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## harrietsmama (Dec 10, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
This is one of the things that annoy me. Boy Scouts are allowed in schools as if they're school-sanctioned, yet they don't have to follow federal regulations because they're hiding behind the "private organization" banner. If it were me (and I'm sure it will be in a few years), I would just explain to my son that they believe in things we don't and that we're not going to permit him to be part of them. There are other things I wouldn't let my children do - go to Vacation Bible School at a Baptist church, for instance - and this is just one on the list.

Yeah, I'll be chatting with the school about this as soon as I'm done with my cold







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
I would have no problem with this. In fact, I would encourage it. They don't really seem to do that, though. If you exclude atheists, then you're not exploring what the pursuit of higher power means for everyone. Plus they don't recognize the Unitarians, so they're no go for me on that, too.

Yeah, most Christians don't truly understand the pursuit of a sense of a higher power

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
I was in 4-H and didn't raise animals. I went to consumer judging, extemporaneous speaking (I can't remember their name for it now). I learned a lot from 4-H, and it's something I would encourage my children to do. You definitely can be involved and get a sense of group spirit, especially in terms of rooting for the people from your group even if you share diverse interests.

Well you can tell I haven't checked it out yet! But I think now I will. That sounds cool.


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## harrietsmama (Dec 10, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aufilia* 
Ditto what others said, 4-H doesn't have to be animals and it doesn't have to mean lots of new animals. I was in 4-H in jr high and high school and my project was cats -- I showed housecats, the plain ol' boring kind that you already own. It's a spectacular organization, welcoming to everyone, and very down-to-earth about encouraging kids to be themselves even within the organization. I was a 4-H leader until a couple months before DD arrived and the program is very much based around best practices in child development, from non-competitive participation for the youngest up to encouraging the older members to take lead roles and really work for what they earn. Aside from animals, I know our county has programs like computers, motorcycles, cooking, sewing, arts/crafts, performance art, gardening, and all kinds of stuff.

And yeah, Camp Fire is a possibility, too. It's closer in theme/practice to Scouts. (I was in all 3 organizations at one time or another.)

I loved Campfire when I was young - I was a campfire girl all the way from peanuts to Gypsy and my Grandma joined at 11 and was still a member in her 70's. She was waterfront director for over 30 years, and the head honcho for our area for awhile too - can't remember the title. We joined when the kids were little for awhile and the organization is just not the same. I feel such a loss for it. It was so earth/Native American inspired when I was a kid


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## kennedy444 (Aug 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Frumpy* 
My brother did cub scouts all the way through to become an Eagle Scout. I wholeheartedly think that scouting help make him a responsible, thoughtful, and selfless person. He's really a terrific guy.

My husband also did scouting through the Life Scout (one step below Eagle), and he considers scouting to be his most cherished childhood memories. He did a lot of really neat things (especially outdoors) and was exposed to a lot more than he would have been otherwise.


I think this sounds like what the scouting experience is really all about.
It is important to find a good pack with good leaders (or become one yourself).


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## harrietsmama (Dec 10, 2001)

Well, last night I explained that we need to find a different group to join because if Grandpa Dirck (On fire drag queen who is the only 'Grandpa' my kids have) wanted to join they wouldn't accept him because he would want to marry boys instead of girls, and they think it's wrong. He told me all the boys in his class want to marry girls, and I said, yeah, that's usually true, but some boys and girls are different and they like another boy or a girl likes another girl. I showed him pictures of Nan, who is my favorite step dad, but she's a woman (not transgender, it's just that I had so many step dads I call her my favorite one







) I still keep in touch with her, but not often enough that the kids know her, she lives too far away.

He agreed that it would be mean to tell Grandpa Dirck he couldn't be part of Boy Scouts so that worked. I am going to check out 4H.


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## ShaggyDaddy (Jul 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *witchygrrl* 
Dh is an Eagle Scout, and while he'll put it on his resume (*employers tend to look favorably on that*)

this is something I always heard when I was being pushed kicking and screaming to do my Eagle project (which I never did - hah once I started working on cars - goodbye scouts). I just don't see how that is true or can be substantiated. Nowadays I think the reputation of the BSA has made it so putting that on your Resume might be a bad thing.

I mean think about it... If the employer is heavily involved in scouting, and "drinks the kool-aide" then you are putting on your resume "I am not gay and also I am a christian, please hire me" In which case do you really want the job that "Not gay and christian" is a positive trait for being hired.

Or they are disgusted by the BSA, and you are putting "Bigot" on your resume.

Or they are clueless about scouts so "Eagle" means nothing to them.

Or you are lucky and they used to be involved in scouts and don't know/care about the homosexuality or religion thing.

It seems like the potential for harm or indifference is higher than the potential for good when it comes to putting it on your resume.


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## milkamama (May 14, 2005)

both my father and brother were scouts and enjoyed the adventure and team work. so much has changed in the last decade or so, and though my father has passed on, i know he would not support a group that discriminates.

forgive me for my lack of time...i did not read each and every post, but did want to say that we recently joined a new spiral scout circle (though we are not pagan, we love the philosophy) and have found it to be welcoming and fun.

http://www.spiralscouts.org/

peace


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Oohhh the Spiral Scouts sound GREAT and there are some circles in my area







:

I would never contribute time or money to the BSA due to the things that have already been discussed on this thread.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShaggyDaddy* 
Or they are disgusted by the BSA, and you are putting "Bigot" on your resume.

Okay, I'll admit it. This is the first thing that would come to mind for me. Even if it's subconscious, most people will make some determination about you when they're reading your resume.


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## FiddleMama (Feb 27, 2007)

I have two boys. My husband grew up in Boy Scouts, had a good experience and enjoyed it for the most part, although he reports that his troop became very Lord-of-the-Flies-ish as they got older (lots of aggression and acting out, little to no leadership).

We absolutely won't do BSA. I just can't get over the level of discrimination that is acceptable within the organization. 4H seems like a good option for us if they want a social group like that.


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## green betty (Jun 13, 2004)

Years ago, when BSA was in the process of clarifying their religious stance, I mentored a ten-year-old scout in my UU church for the Religion In Life badge. He worked very hard to earn the badge and was commesurately proud of it.

A few months later, the BSA (or perhaps I'll just call them "BS") ruled that UUs were no longer eligible to earn the Religion In Life badge and _took away_ the one my mentee had previously earned. He was devestated.

Under no circumstances would I consent to my child's involvement with a discriminatory institution like the BS. While I'll happily agree that BS is not anywhere as hateful and discriminatory as, say, the Hitler Youth, I consider it to be a difference of degree rather than kind.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *east carolina* 

What bothers me about the scouts here as elsewhere is that they split boys and girls apart and much of their activity is paramilitary. Keeping sentry at camp all night, being marched around for miles, being dropped off miles away form camp and being told to find your way there blind, etc... (I don't know if they do this in the States, too, but here they still do) I love the idea of a kids' troop that explores nature and goes camping, helps out in the community and all that good stuff, but for my son I will be looking for an organization that is integrated and treats children with respect, so not the local boy or girl scouts.


All of that sounds like fun - but we never did anything like that in GS. Ours was very practical stuff from the 80s - things like career exploration, science badges, computer stuff. Well, we did go camping a few times a year. But I remember a Mary Kaye rep being there to show us how to put on make-up and the inevitable "sex education classes" which really only talked about our plumbing (as my mom put it) and not really about sex at all. We didn't really do a ton with nature but we always volunteered and generally learned how to be a woman in the world. We saw plays in NYC and rode a train to Florida for a trip to Disney. We learned double-dutch jump roping because it was fun. I directed a play for younger girls for my silver award and we learned about different cultures through Juliet Lowe girls. Rode bikes for a bike-a-thon. Helped out at the Special Olympics.

I don't remember much on religion. We had Jewish and Christian girls in the troop and I would have identified as atheist in my later teen years - say 15-18. I was in it all through HS. It was positive for me. But GS is completely different than BS. I later joined ROTC and nothing in scouting really helped me there. There wasn't any military aspect to my GS experience.

I think in the Jr. High years it definitely helped to be segregated by sex.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

The military connection is the reason that we decided not to participate.


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## mommyinIL1976 (Jan 20, 2008)

I told my family's story in another thread, but I'll repeat it here:

Oldest DS joined cub scouts in the third grade. Everything was going well until the den mother found out we were atheists. She sent a letter saying we were no longer welcome. I understand that the BSA is a private organization and can admit who they want, but what really made me mad was the fact that they were holding meetings/gatherings in my DS' school. In a sense, my son was told he was unwelcome to attend a meeting at his own school to which his family pays taxes to support. That seems unconstitutional to me.

I wanted to complain, but DH is a police officer :cop: and is afraid of retribution, both from the small community we live in and from his command. DH felt ashamed that he couldn't "protect" his son from this discrimination based on his job, just because of our lack of religious beliefs. The whole situation stinks. After we found out they also discriminate against homosexuals, it just cemented our belief that the organization is bigoted.

Just my two cents.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harrietsmama* 
Well, last night I explained that we need to find a different group to join because if Grandpa Dirck (On fire drag queen who is the only 'Grandpa' my kids have) wanted to join they wouldn't accept him because he would want to marry boys instead of girls, and they think it's wrong. He told me all the boys in his class want to marry girls, and I said, yeah, that's usually true, but some boys and girls are different and they like another boy or a girl likes another girl. I showed him pictures of Nan, who is my favorite step dad, but she's a woman (not transgender, it's just that I had so many step dads I call her my favorite one







) I still keep in touch with her, but not often enough that the kids know her, she lives too far away.

He agreed that it would be mean to tell Grandpa Dirck he couldn't be part of Boy Scouts so that worked. I am going to check out 4H.









That is awesome! If it comes up again you can throw in that some boys don't know that want to marry boys until they are old enough to marry. And some boys don't even know that you can marry boys because they've only ever known girl/boy marriages.


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## Robinna (Aug 11, 2003)

This is all a huge shock to me. We just signed my 5yo up for Beavers which is coed here. I'm in Canada & my DH and I both were in "the movement" in various capacities as children. Neither of us found it militarized, homophobic or especially religious (God is in the "promise" but I never thought anything of it at all, as a kid, it was just something we were to say and pretty devoid of meaning). It was more about outdoorsmanship, team building and skills development. I got out when I got bored in Girl Guides around age 12, my DH stayed in until he was about 17 (in Newfoundland). I've never heard anything like these reports before. I know that the discussion is specifically about BSA, but i would be very interested to know if anybody has had these experiences or seen these policies in Canadian scouting becuase if it's changed like that, I'd be pulling ds right back out.


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## SpiderMum (Sep 13, 2008)

My best friend currently works for the Scouts. From what I understand they go by a "Don't ask, don't tell" sort of policy when it comes to homosexuals or non-religious families. It also depends on the troop. Some troops focus on religion (depending on who is in charge), others don't. DH was in Scouts when he was young and his troop was very laid back about everything, including wearing uniforms and getting badges. For them it was just an excuse to hang out and go camping.


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## Pax3 (May 2, 2008)

A note and a thought or two...

First... not sure about the past history of BSA and UU, but they do currently have a Letter of Endorsement on file for the Unitarian Universalist Scouters Association... http://www.scouting.org/media/relati...s/letters.aspx

So far as the paramilitary aspect... I don't see having this as a negative link. Structure and discipline and that level of organization are not necessarily bad things. They can teach valuable lessons, and the BSA in general uses these as effective tools, not oppressive, individuality-crushing instruments. It might be different here and there, but I really have never seen or heard of the "shut up and color" attitude that is pervasive in the actual military (speaking from experience here). BSA troops, in general, teach kids to work together to make their own decisions, with adult supervision to make sure they're not really bad ones, but even within the structure, and in the uniforms, kids ARE able to have a voice and decide things. Again, I'm sure there are exceptions, but for the most part, to my knowledge anyway, troops are not authoritarian and kids are encouraged to grow and develop as individuals, even within the greater framework. And that is an important lesson - realistically, yeah, I agree that growing into independent-thinking adults and maintaining our individuality is vital, but most of us do also have to learn to live and work within the framework of a greater structure somehow, to some extent.

So far as the intolerance of gays as leaders thing, that does bother me, but I guess I have hope that things will change with time. Nothing will change, though, unless those opposed to the policy don't actually get involved and try to change it. If the local troop doesn't have it as an issue, it might just be a great way to influence things from the inside out.

Anyway, just some thoughts to throw into the fire...


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## ladylove (Mar 6, 2006)

It all depends on the local troop.

My dad and brother were very involved in Scouts. I was in Explorer Scouts (the co-ed troop for teenagers). In my troop, the other kids got high on campouts. Not exactly the kind of thing I want for my kids.


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## Autumn Breeze (Nov 13, 2003)

My son just joined, he's going to be 7 this week.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RadUnschooler* 
Can you tell me what they do? Are there meetings...how often? Do they make stuff at the meetings?

So far we've gotten to know our den mates, and generally just had fun. They're going to the Space 'Camp' on 10/4, and it's something like half price, and Jamboree (camping and daytime activities) is happening next month as well. We're all looking forward to that.

We haven't made anything yet.

This was intended for something for us to do with out son, both my dh and I, we alternate meetings, so he gets 1 on 1 time with each of us. So far it has been very nice. My daughter is excited about "girl scouts when I'm big" each time we mention a den or pack meeting.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShaggyDaddy* 
I mean think about it... If the employer is heavily involved in scouting, and "drinks the kool-aide" then you are putting on your resume "I am not gay and also I am a christian, please hire me" In which case do you really want the job that "Not gay and christian" is a positive trait for being hired.

Or they are disgusted by the BSA, and you are putting "Bigot" on your resume.

Or they are clueless about scouts so "Eagle" means nothing to them.

Or you are lucky and they used to be involved in scouts and don't know/care about the homosexuality or religion thing.

It seems like the potential for harm or indifference is higher than the potential for good when it comes to putting it on your resume.

Why can't they see that it takes a lot of work and dedication to make it to Eagle Scout and see that it takes a special hard working person to obtain such a position.

For the record my cousin is an Eagle scout, as are about 5 or 6 of my friends from high school. A few of them are non-religious (as are we) and I know for a fact one of them is openly gay.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AutumnBreeze* 
Why can't they see that it takes a lot of work and dedication to make it to Eagle Scout and see that it takes a special hard working person to obtain such a position.

It's not that people don't understand that it's a lot of work. It's that the publicity the BSA has received in recent years has been negative for anyone who is pro-diversity - specifically pro-gay rights and pro-religious freedom. They don't allow openly gay people, and they don't support someone saying he is atheist. Those aren't acceptable positions for me. "Don't ask, don't tell" is a cop-out. So while I understand that an Eagle Scout put in a lot of work, I will assume - whether I *should* or not - that someone who's an Eagle Scout supports the BSA's positions enough to be that invested in the organization.


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## Autumn Breeze (Nov 13, 2003)

That's unfortunate.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Well I think being involved in the BSA is unfortunate, to say the least.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Canadian scouts have marched in pride parades, so...

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/070300-02.htm

Not sure where they are at today. And oh yes they admit girls.







I'm not sure it would be for our family but I was glad to read that story.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Yay!


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AutumnBreeze* 
That's unfortunate.

Why? It's perfectly logical. If I were to put on my resume that I'm involved in the various social/political groups of which I'm a part, it only stands to reason that people reading my resume would read it and make assumptions about my personal views. For some people, it would be a bonus, and for others it would be a detriment.

I write resumes for a living. I know what I tell people about their non-work activities, and some of that discussion is about what others think when they're reading your resume. BSA is anti-gay and anti-religious diversity. If someone chooses to participate in that organization and puts in the hours to become an Eagle Scout then obviously that person doesn't have enough of a problem with BSA's positions not to give their time/money to the organization.

Now obviously age matters as these issues have become clearer, and the BSA's position more staunch, over the past decade, so a 35-year-old Eagle Scout is a different story, though a 35YO should never have something like Eagle Scout on a resume.


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## Ursa Mater (Sep 4, 2008)

My mom was a den mother, and my dad was a scout leader, and they never had much to do with the religion side of things. To them, the God oath was open enough to whatever higher power you believed in (though I didn't ask them about atheism). I think it did help my brothers develop a sense of civic duty, and it gave them a direction and outlet and reality check for their interest in military type things. They learn a whole lot of skills that would usually never get brought up in everyday life, and my brothers developed an understanding that they have to work toward desired goals.

Having said that, as a queer mama and someone who beleieves strongly on religious freedom, including the freedom from religion, I find the BSA's policies to be unacceptable. Their popcorn sucks, too. I have my mom and dad's scouting books, and I'm going to use them to direct some activities for my DD and maybe some friends. There's a lot of good info and plenty of activities in them. I'm looking into the Spiral Scouts, too, but that means I'd have to start a circle here in Indiana.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

The jury's still out on Cub Scouts for Bean. I'll have to visit a local Den and get a feel for them, or look into starting one myself. The way I see it, the organization can't possibly change if people are unwilling to work on it from within... so I don't have a problem with getting involved even though they espouse beliefs that aren't remotely in line with my own.

That said, I'm working on starting both an Earth Scouts Troop and a Sprial Scouts Circle in my local area. Both groups are inclusive by definition, they're certainly not mutually exclusive, and I think that we need more alternative programs for kids to be involved with. Hopefully there are other families/parents in the area who agree with me, because I mean it when I say I really can't run things on my own right now.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy* 
The jury's still out on Cub Scouts for Bean. I'll have to visit a local Den and get a feel for them, or look into starting one myself. The way I see it, the organization can't possibly change if people are unwilling to work on it from within... so I don't have a problem with getting involved even though they espouse beliefs that aren't remotely in line with my own.

But they can be replaced by non-bigoted groups that provide the same activities OR realize that they must change if they want to keep their numbers up. And that way my time & $ don't go to support them while they have their "3,974th" chance.


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## Pax3 (May 2, 2008)

I always figure that if I stayed away from everything I disagreed with I'd have to live on a desert island by myself with only my immediate family... I couldn't live in this town because of the fundamentalists, this state because of the right/left dichotomy and politics caused by it, this country because I hardly agree with everything our government does, and even UU because I think some of their ideals and agendas unrealistic to the point of being uncomfortable with them... but I stay in all these places and groups because of the overwhelming opportunities and benefits and when I can I affect change and otherwise at least just make sure to vote.

There's nothing wrong with working things from the inside out, especially if one doesn't have the time or ability to start a whole other group and the existing group meets the vast majority of one's needs. If a local troop doesn't have the issues, I don't see denying a child the opportunities that are there while invariably positively influencing the evolution of the group.

Everyone has to tend to things to their own comfort level, though. Just adds color to the world.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2* 
But they can be replaced by non-bigoted groups that provide the same activities OR realize that they must change if they want to keep their numbers up. And that way my time & $ don't go to support them while they have their "3,974th" chance.

I'm having a hard time finding a group that provides the same activities. Like I said, I'm working on some alternative groups but it's slow going and neither of those groups offers "the same activities" as cub scouting.


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## Robinna (Aug 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
Why? It's perfectly logical. If I were to put on my resume that I'm involved in the various social/political groups of which I'm a part, it only stands to reason that people reading my resume would read it and make assumptions about my personal views. For some people, it would be a bonus, and for others it would be a detriment.

I write resumes for a living. I know what I tell people about their non-work activities, and some of that discussion is about what others think when they're reading your resume. BSA is anti-gay and anti-religious diversity. If someone chooses to participate in that organization and puts in the hours to become an Eagle Scout then obviously that person doesn't have enough of a problem with BSA's positions not to give their time/money to the organization.

Now obviously age matters as these issues have become clearer, and the BSA's position more staunch, over the past decade, so a 35-year-old Eagle Scout is a different story, though a 35YO should never have something like Eagle Scout on a resume.

I do resume consulting too... I'm actually kinda shocked that adults would bother to put on their resume that they were a scout, unless they were applying for a job as a park ranger or at an outdoors shop or something. It's just not relevant. I have *never* seen this on a resume.


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