# Just LOST custody due to nursing my 4yr old



## GoddessArt (Apr 2, 2008)

Note: I originally posted this in the "Parenting" section and it was suggested to me I post this thread here.

Hello,
I am new to these forums, though not to Mothering. A recent life event has caused me to look for support every where I can think of.

This past week here in Vermont, I received a judges findings in an on going custody dispute with my ex husband. Though we have been separated since mid-2004, I have spent the entire 4 years since in and out of court defending myself and the decisions I have made regarding nursing, co-sleeping, not vaccinating my kids etc.

When married, my ex husband and I educated ourselves and made these choices jointly. Upon filing for divorce 3 years later, these choices were made into points as to why he thought I was an unfit parent.

I never believed that the courts would actually agree. But, they have. This particular judge was appalled that I continued to nurse my child into her fourth year and shared a bed with both my 4 and 6 yr old daughters. She agrees with my ex that the children will likely need counseling as a result.

As you can imagine, I am devastated and in shock. I am looking to find any legal recourse I have, but if you have any suggestions I would greatly appreciate hearing from you. Thanks,
Emily (GoddessArt)


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

That's appalling.

In Vermont? It's positively ... odd.

I've got nothing useful to say, just bumping it to the top of the page.

I hope you've got a reasonably-okay lawyer. If not, maybe you need to find one.


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## llamalluv (Aug 24, 2007)

I don't have any advice, but I'm so sorry this is happening to you.







s:


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## robertandenith (Apr 1, 2008)

That's just totally unfair. have you thought of looking help through LLL?

((((hugs to you))))


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

What a nightmare. I am so sorry









What does your attorney say? What kind of custody arrangement will you have after this? Your poor kids.


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## goodheartedmama (Feb 1, 2007)

just wanted to offer my support. I'm so sorry to hear this. I hope you have a good lawyer on your side. Unfortunately, I'm not incredibly shocked. Some people just don't get it


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## Kaitnbugsmom (Dec 4, 2003)

what did your attorney say?


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## crazyangel06 (May 19, 2006)

wow thats just wow


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## GoddessArt (Apr 2, 2008)

Hi all,
I've been gathering strength all day, spoke with both my attorney and the court appointed attorney for the kids. The best news I've heard all day: the children's attorney may be filing an appeal on their behalf!
Second best news: this particular judge has had her rulings overturned by the VT supreme court quite frequently, this according to an attorney who has worked closely in the supreme court office in Montpelier.
It's just remembering to breathe now, regain my focus, and realize that this situation presents a far greater problem to overcome than those of four little people.
Thanks so much for your support


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## Claire and Boys (Mar 27, 2007)

Oh, that's just awful. I don't even know what to say.

What is WRONG with society?


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## momz3 (May 1, 2006)

Oh hun, I'm so sorry









But I'm glad they are appealing this..you guys will be in my prayers!


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## Red (Feb 6, 2002)

My heart goes out to you and your children.

Ccan you cut a deal with your X? I know it would be awful, but offer to let him get off paying support. No money, vs. no kids.

And while I totally support extended nursing and family beds, and praticed both, you need to consider giving up both, as well as making any other changes necessary. Not because it's better for your kids, but because being with you is likely more important. You could probably 'cheat' on the family bed, give the girls their own beds, and then go sleep with them?

I would decide what was THE most important thing here...(for me it would be keeping the kids. That isn't always true. ) THen I'd do everythig I could to make that thing come true.

I know your panic. I've felt it. You're right. You need to remember to breathe, to play with your kids, to laugh. You also need to plan, to prepare, to make your case as strong as you can you gain your ultimate goal.

Follow your heart. (not mine!) Get a great lawyer. Take heart in the fact that this judge is an obvious nut.

My prayers and thoughts are with you.


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## GoddessArt (Apr 2, 2008)

Thanks, Red








I appreciate your thoughts - I've thought the same thing over and over again. Ultimately I settled on the fact that these choices are perfectly within my rights as a parent. I also thought (mistakenly in this instance) that no court could ever factor these things in. It would be a privacy issue - a violation of civil liberties. I thought (again, mistakenly) that by those virtues, whether a judge agreed with me or not, their position of power would necessitate their objectivity...that the couldn't possibly allow personal opinion to sway their decision.
I was wrong about that, but not wrong to choose to be the parent I have. Think of it this way. My attorney was skeptical about my reluctance to vaccinate. She thought a judge might not understand. That was almost four years ago. I was so scared that I went ahead and gave my daughters their first series of shots. Later that year, I learned that my choice not to vaccinate was (is) protected by law. I then felt empowered to stop giving them shots.
Will my lawyer now feel it is also necessary to council her clients to stop nursing, to not co-sleep, etc., because it may cause a judge to rule against them? Could this judge's opinion end up influencing other parents to make parenting choices they might not otherwise for fear of losing legal rights and responsibilities?
Here's another thought. If I was still married, made these same choices and was living my life, nothing I would be doing would be considered unacceptable by the authorities. Quirky yes. But not worthy of yanking legal rights from the parent. BUT, as a single mother, apparently I have lost my rights to live by these philosophies safely.
I guess I'm trying to say that I did it for my kids - both times - when,out of fear of losing them, I had the kids have those shots AND when I decided not to feel pressured, to live in fear, but to do what I knew was right in my heart of hearts for me and my kids.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

If you lost a 4 yr custody battle for nursing your 4 yr old, that means she's 8 now, yes? At least she got the 4 years. It's hard to beleive you're in VT. VT is like the most progressive state int he US.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

If you lost a 4 yr custody battle for nursing your 4 yr old, that means she's 8 now, yes? At least she got the 4 years. It's hard to believe you're in VT. VT is like the most progressive, liberal state int he US.


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## GoddessArt (Apr 2, 2008)

No, she just turned 5. At the time of the hearing last fall she was 4. She was just 1 yr old when this began.

The judge took in to consideration that I was still nursing a four year old child and concluded that by doing so, I was making it difficult for her to be comforted when she was with her father. The judge quoted me as saying, back when she was not even 2, that I agreed it would be in her best interest to begin weening.
I DID say that...back then. I know I said it to appease a family court. But the fact is, when it comes to what is best for my child, I'm going to follow my child's cues.

As it turns out, no matter how many days she spent apart from me (over summer vacation she was with her dad for 9 days) she came home asking for breast. I had psychologically prepared myself for the day she would be finished with breast over and over. What I've found is that, under these circumstances, she needed that reassurance more! My other daughter weened herself at 3 - though she did ask for breast 3 or 4 times throughout her 4th year too.

I didn't think anything of it. For crying out loud, it's not as though a 3-4 yr old nurses like an infant. Generally, they want a few sips and cuddles - just to reconnect with the mothership - and they're off again. Plenty of other mothers I know do the same thing. The guardian ad litum in this case (also a nurse) didn't bat an eye. Neither did the children's attorney.

My ex made the point of discussing my nursing at length. He even told the court that our daughter, when with me, nurses ALL NIGHT LONG. (ahem, how would he know anything that occurs in my bed??) His attorney bombarded me with questions and sick insinuations about it, too.

Again, we ALL thought any sane judge will see right through that ugliness. Nope, not this judge. She was disgusted in the first place, so willingly believe all of their other nasty slants.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I'm so sorry mama


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## motomama (Aug 5, 2005)

Think about posting on the lactivism board. There are alot of very informed mamas there I've read some posts on custody battles there. Hugs to you and don't give up!!


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Have you tried contacting the gurus of the AP world and see if someone will come and testify as an expert witness? Jay Gordon, the Dr Sears, Jack Newman, etc? I would hope they'd listen to someone who's a respected famous physican and such.


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## robertandenith (Apr 1, 2008)

I highly recommend to contact someone from LLL
http://www.llli.org//Law/LawExtended.html


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

That's all I have to say. And i agree with a pp-- it couldn't hurt to contact Jay Gordon, the Dr Sears, Jack Newman, and the LLL.
This country makes me so sick sometimes.


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## Lilcrunchie (Jun 16, 2004)

nak-
contact Kathryn Dettwyler and Jack Newman.

Foxnews' website had a really negative article on extended nursing in Australia and cited two psychologists, neither with great credentials that had "hunches" it would lead to a need for counseling later in life, blah blah














:

There was no representation of the other side whatsoever, and no research cited to back up the claims of psychological harm.

I contacted Kathryn Dettwyler (email on the page here: http://www.kathydettwyler.org/dettwyler.html ) and Jack Newman (email here: http://www.positivelybreastfeeding.c..._Biography.htm ), and both wrote in to the foxnews site stating that there is no evidence of psychological harm. (of course their comments were never published and there was no "balanced" follow up). You could also look at the research from James McKenna from the Notre Dame child/mother sleep center. He's very pro cosleeping and has research showing it helps even older kids when a parent is deployed, etc.

here's a link to his site:
http://www.nd.edu/~jmckenn1/lab/

I'd also contact the ACLU. You are not doing anything wrong. I would see if these experts will give expert testimony. My hunch is they've done stuff like this before and may have some sort of prepared statement available about the normalcy of extended nursing, etc. and may be able to submit that somehow?

Dettwyler and Newman were really kind when I emailed them about the foxnews story (I felt weird doing so), but both of them submitted responses to Foxnews.com the same day IIRC.


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## Erinok (Sep 11, 2006)

I'm so sorry for you. I am also going through a divorce, and find the courts appauling. I was told by the judge that I was "playing the nursing card" when I didn't want my then 4 month old to have 2 consecutive overnights away from me. I ended up having to wean much earlier then I wanted to because of visitation schedule. I've had to... alter alot of my parenting. The courts just seem to see things in black and white, and if your not mainstream, your in trouble.


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## blue butterfly (Nov 28, 2005)

i am sorry to say that i don't have any advice for you but i couldn't read this thread and not send you hugs. i am so sorry this has happened to you


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## kalisis (Jan 10, 2005)

I'm sorry mama. I'm in the same situation with my STBXH - we researched and made most decisions together about our children and he was fine with them while we were together. Now though, he's using any 'different' decision as ammo against me and to try to prove me an unfit parent.

I'm so sorry you have to deal with this. I have not found any great resources out there, but like you, I have decided to stick to my guns and not let the system interefere with our lives out of fear.








s and many wishes for a speedy and sane resolution to this.


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## editmom (Dec 6, 2006)

OP mom, I am a vermonter and I am ashamed to live here. Another poster said Vermont was the most progressive state. This is a myth and I have first hand experience that shows Vt has not a clue about attachment parenting.

Op, you have gotten great advice and I really hope you dig up the experts with clout to help you. You are being roasted because he can do it. I am sorry that your love of your children has been made into something dirty. I am very glad that you had the time with them both and hope you get them back very soon.


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## MommaHeather (Mar 1, 2008)

Family Court Systems suck all over the US. I'm glad you are fighting this! My thoughts are with you!!


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## ColoradoMama (Nov 22, 2001)

I want to second calling LLL. Call your local LLL leader. She can either get in touch with or put you in touch with their professional liaison person. One of the founders of LLL is now an attorney. There are many people within LLL who are very familiar with custody cases involving extended breastfeeding. Good luck.


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## mum5 (Apr 10, 2004)

Your thread caught my eye, and I am so shocked to read what you are going through. I would be absolutely FUMING if anyone made me feel wierd about nursing my children or sleeping in the same bed with them.

I am so sorry that you are going through this. I have great advice, but wish you the best of luck.
You and your children will be in my thoughts


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## mandmmominga (Jan 9, 2008)

whatever happened with this?


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## mama in the forest (Apr 17, 2006)

mama, is there anything we can do? How are you doing?


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## forthebest (Jun 19, 2006)

OMG that is appalling treatment mama, I am so sorry you are being put through this. I totally get what you say about these being your parenting choices and how you felt pressurised into the round of shots and how if you were living as married these issues would not be questioned. I am disgusted at your ex using these choices to get back at you, may he rue the day. I think you should continue to have faith in your own convictions. I am single-mom too so I know exactly the insidious underhand treatment we can recieve. Please, please don't let them grind you down, be aware of that technique and fight it. You have every right to your parenting choices just cos they don't fit in with the mainstream agenda who would likely say bfding is the devils work and condone cio and stuff. They do not parent their dc any better. My ds co-slept with me till he was 11, oops! He now has a bed in my room as we only have 2 rooms and my dc can kip in my pit anytime. I have zero contact with their fathers so we do as we please, a positive in amongst the many hardships we've faced. It's obscene and so very wrong for these people to use these things against you, their own narrow-minded, misinformed viewpoints cannot be the basis of law. They are trying to break you mama, break your bfding relationship, yeah they really care that much about children! Fear is key here and your ex should be ashamed, he is playing the hate card, so easy to do, he is using gender fascism to control you. He is showing you that he doesn't really care about the dc, more about himself and his hurt feelings. When they turn against us like this mama you need to be super strong cos you KNOW you are within your rights but they are telling you you cannot make these choices and they are using your dc as scapegoats for the argument, they know zilch. I'm darn mad right now and just hope you can come out of this with some sense of positivity. Why oh why do they support and riseto the bait of toxic ex partners? Probably cos they hate women, they being the system and all who partake in upholding it. We HAVE to stand up to them


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## Treece (Apr 5, 2006)

I lost my first son while his was less than 1. Our nursing ended abruptly at 4 m/o cuz his dad. While we were together we made all decisions together and were debating vax. We had a family bed and all that. When it came time for chicken pox vax, I said no its not deadly, judge said its required and im unfit. haven't had an overnite stay since little bit was 1.5, haven't had any extended visit (ie longer than an hour, without his dad and/or step mom presnt) since he was 2.5 or so, and now he is 3.5 and I can't see him grow up. He can write and all he doesn't get to share that with me. His attorney would never stand up for him and told me that I needed to appeal him not seeing me. WTH is her job? So i gave up. Dont follow my footstpes, for they are a hard road to follow. PM if you need some emo support. <hugs>


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## vermonttaylors (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoddessArt* 
Note: I originally posted this in the "Parenting" section and it was suggested to me I post this thread here.

Hello,
I am new to these forums, though not to Mothering. A recent life event has caused me to look for support every where I can think of.

This past week here in Vermont, I received a judges findings in an on going custody dispute with my ex husband. Though we have been separated since mid-2004, I have spent the entire 4 years since in and out of court defending myself and the decisions I have made regarding nursing, co-sleeping, not vaccinating my kids etc.

When married, my ex husband and I educated ourselves and made these choices jointly. Upon filing for divorce 3 years later, these choices were made into points as to why he thought I was an unfit parent.

I never believed that the courts would actually agree. But, they have. This particular judge was appalled that I continued to nurse my child into her fourth year and shared a bed with both my 4 and 6 yr old daughters. She agrees with my ex that the children will likely need counseling as a result.

As you can imagine, I am devastated and in shock. I am looking to find any legal recourse I have, but if you have any suggestions I would greatly appreciate hearing from you. Thanks,
Emily (GoddessArt)

WTF!!!!! Vermont has a philosophical exemption law that says you don't have to vaccinate if you don't believe in it and it doesn't need to be a religious reason. How could not-vaccinating (especially in Vermont where it is common) be legally held against you?

Also the breastfeeding thing? OMG. I am so, so sorry! That judge sounds awful. I hope you are able to get the help and advice you need.








s from a fellow Vermonter


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