# My friend screamed at my son, and humiliated me. How would you react to this? (Warning: it's long.)



## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

The Background:

I have two kids, a 4 year old son and a 3 year old daughter. I'm pretty much a SAHM (I work whenever I can on a part-time basis, which isn't much in my rural area). My dh travels a bit for work, and whenever he travels, the kids and I often take off in the van on a mini-trip of our own to see family or friends, as we live 4-9 hours from our geographically closest friends/family.

My best friend lives one state over, about 4-5 hours away. The kids and I go over there a few times a year, and she comes to our house once or twice a year. She has three kids and works part-time, so it works out well for us that I usually travel over there.

Her kids are 6, 3, and 9 months. She just completed a renovation on her farmhouse which effectively doubled her mortgage payment, putting her in the position of having to work (she would secretly rather be at home). Her job is awful at present, and her husband is the absolute least-involved person I've ever seen in a marriage or as a parent. He's the silent guy who comes home, grunts at his wife and barely speaks to the kids as he makes his way to the couch. He comes when called to dinner, eats, then clears his own plate and goes back to the couch until bedtime (his). He makes zero attempt to interact with the family unless one of the kids is doing something completely egregious directly in front of him. He spends weekends at "his land" (a parcel about 3 miles from their home) fixing an old tractor & bulldozer, and his 6 year old son let it slip this weekend that daddy likes to take naps in the camper when he goes to his land. My friend was not previously aware of this, and the look on her face was so sad. Her marriage makes her sad, but she'll never divorce. She grew up on a farm with a big, loving, happy family and desperately wants that for her family.

She has had PPD and complicated nursing issues, though she continues to try and supplement (she makes perhaps 18 oz/day for her 9 month old). She has longstanding thyroid issues and has taken meds while not nursing, though she won't (can't, I think?) take Synthroid while nursing...so her levels are actually zero right now and she is a MESS.

She's gone from 2 to 3 kids, she's depressed, her hormones are nuts, and her husband is, for all practical purposes, absent.

So.

The Situation:

The kids and I went over there this weekend. I knew she was tense, but I figured a weekend would cheer her up. My kids have been over there a dozen times, and there were always the usual issues (colicky infants, fussy babies, highly attached children...oh, and they sleep horribly. Want us to come to your house?







) but we laugh about it and she hugs them anyway and we always have a great time. We parent very differently (me = AP, her = spank and scream), and we've had some spirited discussions, but we've always made it through it and still love each other. Her kids are lovely and play great with mine.

The first day was great. Her 6 year old and my 4 year old spent the afternoon outside on the farm building stuff and moving snow around. Our 3 year old daughters played side by side. I rocked the baby while she cooked for us all. Very happy.

The second day was horrible.
She was tense anyway, and it started at breakfast. My son grabbed his sister's hand for coming close to his milk, and claimed he wanted to bite her. I didn't see any of this (not in the room), but I came back in as my friend was grabbing my son and yelling at him, and he was crying. I took over and calmed him and sat next to him through breakfast while simultaneously reminding him in a dire voice that he is absolutely not allowed to bite. anyone. ever.

It ended, though, and we went outside to sled. They have 20 acres with some fantastic hills, and we were all excited. At one point, my son slid down the backside of the hill, away from the rest of us. He didn't respond when she called him, and since I was downhill with my daughter, I didn't know he was down there. She sent her 6yo son to go see why he wasn't coming back up when she called. It became a huge deal because HER kids know that when she whistles, it means that they need to come IMMEDIATELY, but my son has never been whistled for in his whole life and it didn't even faze him. She called his name, and apparently he didn't come then, either.

So, her son went down and I met him coming halfway back up, when I asked him what was up with my son - why wasn't he coming up? Her son replied that my son said "My foot tangled in the rope of the sled. I'm just resting now." I shrugged and kept walking to get him. He said the same thing to me, and I reminded him that when someone calls his name, he needs to answer them. He said okay. We went back up the hill, and I told my friend all of the above. She didn't say much, but she was hot -- and then I heard her asking her son if that was what *really* happened to mine. I was embarrassed -- she was checking to see if my son was lying. Her son confirmed the story, but she was still mad.

A little while later, I was walking up the hill myself and I saw my kids about 15 feet away. Their sleds are identical except for a towing rope, and I saw my daughter climb into her brother's. No big deal, but he immediately tried to dump her out. I yelled his name and started up the hill a little faster, but my friend ran past me and picked him up before I reached him. She started screaming: "I am sick and tired of you being mean to your sister! You are DONE SLEDDING! You need to sit right there!" and she dropped him into the cargo basket of their four-wheeler.

I was steps behind her, and immediately picked him up and started walking away from the group with him, toward the house (about 0.25 mile). I scolded him for not listening/trying to dump his sister, but by the time we got to the house, he was just sobbing and scared. We stopped and I hugged him and calmed him down and listened to what he had to say. I reminded him that he had to be nice to his sister and listen to adults and all, but mostly I just hugged him and tried to calm both of us down.

When the group arrived back at the house, my son and I had spent time in a room by ourselves, calming and talking. He met my friend at the door and apologized for not listening to her. She met us and said "I need to apologize, too. _I know you don't yell at your children_."

What?? That wasn't an apology. It was a backhanded insult.

At any rate, I apologized by saying "I'm sorry my kids are misbehaving at your house."

The evening was frosty, and she stomped around and I rocked her baby while the kids played (they were all fine by this point). We were expecting a third friend of ours to come the next day with her kids, and she called to see what time she should come. My friend took the phone in the bathroom (10 feet away) and didn't shut the door while she ranted and vented about my children: she told the stories about Adam, and ended by yelling "How do you tell your friend YOU can come to my house, but NOT YOUR KIDS! ARGH!"

I was so embarrassed and humiliated, and she walked out of the bathroom to find me off the phone, realizing I heard every word of hers. She gave the kids dessert and they skipped off while we put the baby in the bath.

While I was handing her soap and such, she point-blank asked me "Do you think your kids would be good at your house?" I was stunned and couldn't say anything but I think I murmured something like 'who knows' -- I mean, how do you respond to that?

She spent the entire next day with our friend over describing how we just need a Mom's Weekend Away next year, without the kids. I knew she meant mine.







I felt shamed.

The kids played just fine the rest of the weekend and were sad to leave, mostly because they love her kids' toys and land. They are already asking to go back.

I spent the nights and the last few days just sick over it, and my friend called like nothing had happened and chatted just as pleasantly as could be. I was outside playing with my son when she called, and he was laughing, and she was really pleasant: "I just love his laugh!" I felt like she was extending an olive branch, but I wasn't sure.

I am trying to take everything into consideration ---- if I felt no grace in my life (work, husband, young children, mortgage...), I would hardly be able to extend it to other people, like my friends' kids when they misbehave. So I am trying to see this through her eyes with compassion and love and trying to believe the best and trying to be compassionate about all of the extenuating circumstances that led her to react the way she did to, frankly, what is not abnormal behavior at my house. My kids are 4 and 3 and they aren't perfect listeners, and they do sometimes fight. It's better than it used to be, but they aren't perfectly behaved all the time. Heck, if she thought that was bad, she should be at my house at 5pm while I'm trying to cook dinner! I'll show her ill behavior.







Anyway, I'm trying to be compassionate about it.

However, I still feel humiliated and embarrassed at her reaction to me and my son.

I read an interview with Thich Nhat Hanh tonight, and I'm trying so hard to extend compassion to her in frankly, what is a difficult time for her. I don't work (much), my husband is wonderful, our finances are in order, and my hormones are fine. I feel like I can give her this grace.

But I'm still wary of taking the kids over there anytime soon.

Thoughts?

And love to you







if you have read this far.


----------



## racheepoo (Jan 9, 2010)

Wow. First of all, you have much compassion for her, and you can see that she's overwhelmed and you've had to sidestep or deal with issues in the past regarding your very different takes on parenting. I think she was rude, and while there might be a host of reasons for her being in a bad place right now, I wouldn't feel comfortable taking my kids back to her turf, expecting her not to have input and expecting the kids to be cool with such a much different situation. If you want to salvage the friendship, I would suggest that you talk to her, because you're just going to have built up resentment and eggshell behavior every time you and your kids are around. Such a hard situation, I'm so sorry.


----------



## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

My first reaction is shock. Do you have an agreement that you may discipline each other's children? I would never, in a million years, yell an another's child, even if I were the yelling type. And so much drama over sibling squables (that are normal) and not coming when called (by someone not his parent)? Really rather over the top, IMHO.

I would probably decide that its not worth taking my kids there for a while. Before going back, I would have a frank conversation about expectations and boundaries. Or invite her to your house but have the same conversation. Maybe over the phone suggest she get some help with the PPD and hormonal issues, if you are that close.


----------



## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

I don't think anything your children was so terrible. She screamed at your children, she manhandled your son.

I think there is a large difference between "NOT YELLING EVER NO YELLING" and yelling for every tiny thing. I wouldn't be comfortable with her disciplining my children.

I can tell you love your friend but I would probably tell her she needs to seek some sort of help for this. She does probably need you right now, but it is not fair to your son to be treated like that.


----------



## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

If she has been a kind, understanding friend in the past I think trying to see things through her eyes is about the kindest thing you can do in this situation. She sounds pulled thin and like she might not have been at her best for having house guests. She might have been just on the edge and adding three more people to the mix just put her over. Sure, if she knew she wasn't up to company she should have said but maybe she didn't know, maybe it sounded like a good idea at the time, maybe she didn't know how to say come another time or take back an invitation she'd extended.

I don't think there's any reason for you to feel embarrassed, it sounds like your kids are just kids and normally your friend knows that but right now she's not at her normal.


----------



## lmk1 (Sep 21, 2007)

I have to agree that nothing that you've said your kids have done sounds that bad to me...sounds like normal kid things. Heck, saying you're going to bite someone isn't the same as biting someone! But whatever, that is not relevant, if you are present, you are the one to discipline your kids, not your friend. Especially since they were "fighting" with each other and not her kids!

It does sound like your friend has a really bad situation. But it sounds like visiting her with your kids is not a good option. I think you need to tell her that she is not to discipline your kids...period...when you are present. That doesn't mean just no yelling...but if you are there, she does not need to direct them at all. If she has a problem with how they are behaving, then she should talk to you about it. Would you feel comfortable disciplining her kids?

I feel sorry for your friend, but that doesn't give her the right to take it out on your kids. And perhaps her "complaining" about them is just an indication of trying to find some "superiority" for herself. It sounds like your family is much more the type of happy family she'd rather have...

As far as the whistling for her kids, you made me think of The Sound of Music where the kids were just expected to be little soldiers. I'm a little dubious about how she could've grown up in a big happy family ... don't all kids fight? I've never ever known siblings to not fight.


----------



## TulsiLeaf (Nov 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hopefulfaith* 
The Background:

I have two kids, a 4 year old son and a 3 year old daughter. I'm pretty much a SAHM (I work whenever I can on a part-time basis, which isn't much in my rural area). My dh travels a bit for work, and whenever he travels, the kids and I often take off in the van on a mini-trip of our own to see family or friends, as we live 4-9 hours from our geographically closest friends/family.

My best friend lives one state over, about 4-5 hours away. The kids and I go over there a few times a year, and she comes to our house once or twice a year. She has three kids and works part-time, so it works out well for us that I usually travel over there.

Her kids are 6, 3, and 9 months. She just completed a renovation on her farmhouse which effectively doubled her mortgage payment, putting her in the position of having to work (she would secretly rather be at home). Her job is awful at present, and her husband is the absolute least-involved person I've ever seen in a marriage or as a parent. He's the silent guy who comes home, grunts at his wife and barely speaks to the kids as he makes his way to the couch. He comes when called to dinner, eats, then clears his own plate and goes back to the couch until bedtime (his). He makes zero attempt to interact with the family unless one of the kids is doing something completely egregious directly in front of him. He spends weekends at "his land" (a parcel about 3 miles from their home) fixing an old tractor & bulldozer, and his 6 year old son let it slip this weekend that daddy likes to take naps in the camper when he goes to his land. My friend was not previously aware of this, and the look on her face was so sad. Her marriage makes her sad, but she'll never divorce. She grew up on a farm with a big, loving, happy family and desperately wants that for her family.

She has had PPD and complicated nursing issues, though she continues to try and supplement (she makes perhaps 18 oz/day for her 9 month old). She has longstanding thyroid issues and has taken meds while not nursing, though she won't (can't, I think?) take Synthroid while nursing...so her levels are actually zero right now and she is a MESS.

She's gone from 2 to 3 kids, she's depressed, her hormones are nuts, and her husband is, for all practical purposes, absent.

So.

The Situation:

The kids and I went over there this weekend. I knew she was tense, but I figured a weekend would cheer her up. My kids have been over there a dozen times, and there were always the usual issues (colicky infants, fussy babies, highly attached children...oh, and they sleep horribly. Want us to come to your house?







) but we laugh about it and she hugs them anyway and we always have a great time. We parent very differently (me = AP, her = spank and scream), and we've had some spirited discussions, but we've always made it through it and still love each other. Her kids are lovely and play great with mine.

The first day was great. Her 6 year old and my 4 year old spent the afternoon outside on the farm building stuff and moving snow around. Our 3 year old daughters played side by side. I rocked the baby while she cooked for us all. Very happy.

The second day was horrible.
She was tense anyway, and it started at breakfast. My son grabbed his sister's hand for coming close to his milk, and claimed he wanted to bite her. I didn't see any of this (not in the room), but I came back in as my friend was grabbing my son and yelling at him, and he was crying. I took over and calmed him and sat next to him through breakfast while simultaneously reminding him in a dire voice that he is absolutely not allowed to bite. anyone. ever.

It ended, though, and we went outside to sled. They have 20 acres with some fantastic hills, and we were all excited. At one point, my son slid down the backside of the hill, away from the rest of us. He didn't respond when she called him, and since I was downhill with my daughter, I didn't know he was down there. She sent her 6yo son to go see why he wasn't coming back up when she called. It became a huge deal because HER kids know that when she whistles, it means that they need to come IMMEDIATELY, but my son has never been whistled for in his whole life and it didn't even faze him. She called his name, and apparently he didn't come then, either.

So, her son went down and I met him coming halfway back up, when I asked him what was up with my son - why wasn't he coming up? Her son replied that my son said "My foot tangled in the rope of the sled. I'm just resting now." I shrugged and kept walking to get him. He said the same thing to me, and I reminded him that when someone calls his name, he needs to answer them. He said okay. We went back up the hill, and I told my friend all of the above. She didn't say much, but she was hot -- and then I heard her asking her son if that was what *really* happened to mine. I was embarrassed -- she was checking to see if my son was lying. Her son confirmed the story, but she was still mad.

A little while later, I was walking up the hill myself and I saw my kids about 15 feet away. Their sleds are identical except for a towing rope, and I saw my daughter climb into her brother's. No big deal, but he immediately tried to dump her out. I yelled his name and started up the hill a little faster, but my friend ran past me and picked him up before I reached him. She started screaming: "I am sick and tired of you being mean to your sister! You are DONE SLEDDING! You need to sit right there!" and she dropped him into the cargo basket of their four-wheeler.

I was steps behind her, and immediately picked him up and started walking away from the group with him, toward the house (about 0.25 mile). I scolded him for not listening/trying to dump his sister, but by the time we got to the house, he was just sobbing and scared. We stopped and I hugged him and calmed him down and listened to what he had to say. I reminded him that he had to be nice to his sister and listen to adults and all, but mostly I just hugged him and tried to calm both of us down.

When the group arrived back at the house, my son and I had spent time in a room by ourselves, calming and talking. He met my friend at the door and apologized for not listening to her. She met us and said "I need to apologize, too. _I know you don't yell at your children_."

What?? That wasn't an apology. It was a backhanded insult.

At any rate, I apologized by saying "I'm sorry my kids are misbehaving at your house."

The evening was frosty, and she stomped around and I rocked her baby while the kids played (they were all fine by this point). We were expecting a third friend of ours to come the next day with her kids, and she called to see what time she should come. My friend took the phone in the bathroom (10 feet away) and didn't shut the door while she ranted and vented about my children: she told the stories about Adam, and ended by yelling "How do you tell your friend YOU can come to my house, but NOT YOUR KIDS! ARGH!"

I was so embarrassed and humiliated, and she walked out of the bathroom to find me off the phone, realizing I heard every word of hers. She gave the kids dessert and they skipped off while we put the baby in the bath.

While I was handing her soap and such, she point-blank asked me "Do you think your kids would be good at your house?" I was stunned and couldn't say anything but I think I murmured something like 'who knows' -- I mean, how do you respond to that?

She spent the entire next day with our friend over describing how we just need a Mom's Weekend Away next year, without the kids. I knew she meant mine.







I felt shamed.

The kids played just fine the rest of the weekend and were sad to leave, mostly because they love her kids' toys and land. They are already asking to go back.

I spent the nights and the last few days just sick over it, and my friend called like nothing had happened and chatted just as pleasantly as could be. I was outside playing with my son when she called, and he was laughing, and she was really pleasant: "I just love his laugh!" I felt like she was extending an olive branch, but I wasn't sure.

I am trying to take everything into consideration ---- if I felt no grace in my life (work, husband, young children, mortgage...), I would hardly be able to extend it to other people, like my friends' kids when they misbehave. So I am trying to see this through her eyes with compassion and love and trying to believe the best and trying to be compassionate about all of the extenuating circumstances that led her to react the way she did to, frankly, what is not abnormal behavior at my house. My kids are 4 and 3 and they aren't perfect listeners, and they do sometimes fight. It's better than it used to be, but they aren't perfectly behaved all the time. Heck, if she thought that was bad, she should be at my house at 5pm while I'm trying to cook dinner! I'll show her ill behavior.







Anyway, I'm trying to be compassionate about it.

However, I still feel humiliated and embarrassed at her reaction to me and my son.

I read an interview with Thich Nhat Hanh tonight, and I'm trying so hard to extend compassion to her in frankly, what is a difficult time for her. I don't work (much), my husband is wonderful, our finances are in order, and my hormones are fine. I feel like I can give her this grace.

But I'm still wary of taking the kids over there anytime soon.

Thoughts?

And love to you







if you have read this far.


wow.

I just want to say that being down and out is no excuse for being a jerk to your friends. She was a jerk to you.

If I were you, I would just call her up and ask her what is up. Tell her basically what you told us. Tell her how you feel and that you understand she is going through a lot but you didn't deserve that.

I'm sorry it happened. Take Care


----------



## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think you should tell your friend that you feel that her meanness towards your children was uncalled for and you will not have anything to do with her until she gets help for the PPD. If she feels that you are close enough for her to talk loudly enough for you to hear that she doesn't want your kids at the house and to question your ability to parent your children, then you are close enough friends for you to put down some very firm boundaries. Just because she has depression doesn't mean she has a free ticket to walk on you and put you down. This sounds like it is becoming a toxic relationship and you need to pull out rather than letting it go on.


----------



## alfabetsoup (Jun 13, 2005)

If I was in her situation, work stress, lack of support, PPD etc, having house guests would send me over the edge. No matter how well I knew them or how much I liked their children. Chances are she didn't want you there in the first place but felt she couldn't say no because you are such old friends, and probably she wanted to see YOU. I'm sure it would have been nice for her if it was just you, you could have helped her out a bit! As it was, you had to look after your own children and it sounds like she felt responsible for them too.

If you want to help her, try to arrange that girls weekend if it's at all possible. It sounds like she never gets a break and could really use one.


----------



## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

I think in your shoes I would gently confront her. I would call her and say something like, "I think you should know that I accidentally heard your entire conversation with Friend C. I think we should talk about what you said to her-- because while I know we love each other a lot, maybe we need to take a break from visiting if my kids cause you too much stress." See where it goes from there. She does owe you a BIG apology. And frankly, your kids hardly sound like they misbehaved! It sounds like totally normal kid/sibling stuff. So please, don't be ashamed of your children or your parenting!

While it's true she has a lot going on right now, it's not your fault or your kids' fault that she didn't have the wisdom to call you and tell you it wasn't a good time for a visit. She also should have had the kindness to apologize for screaming at your child, and the kindness (once she realized you'd overheard her phone call) to bring the subject up directly with you. Since she can't do it, for whatever reason, I think you should.

You are coming from a place of such love and concern for her, I'm sure you'll find the right words so that the situation isn't aggravated. Good luck, mama.


----------



## babygirlie (Jun 4, 2009)

What adult hides in the bathroom to talk behind someones back when you can obviously hear through the door. it's not a sealed vault. Sounds very childish and she in no uncertain terms said she didn't want your kids back.

I am sad for your kids. I would have been mortified if someone shook my kid.

I just wanted to empathize. I would probably distance myself from this person.


----------



## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

I'm hypothyroid. Not taking your replacement thyroxine (and you not only CAN take synthroid while BFing, you MUST or you lose most of your milk!) causes depression along with a whole host of other issues. Depending on how damaged her thyroid gland already is, a lack of thyroxine could actually induce a coma and death.

I think how she behaved was pretty appalling, unless you guys have agreed already that you might discipline one another's kids. I have a friend who we visit back and forth, she has 3 kids i have 1. Our rule is that in our own homes we are "in charge" but that only extends to requests unless the other mama isn't there. We are somewhat similar parents, which helps, but even if we were totally different i would never yell at her kids. I will tell one of them "no" if they are wrecking my stuff and i break up fights but gently.

I really think her medication/thyroid issues could be causing a lot of this. Is there any way you can talk to her about that? Before i got on medication i was short-tempered, depressed and unreasonable, as well as losing my milk supply.


----------



## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

1. It sounds as if your kids are behaving totally normally. It sounds as if you feel bad about their behavior at your friend's house, but I don't think there is any need for that. Besides, they did nothing to _her_ kids, so why on earth was your friend attempting to discipline them? Sorry you had to go through that. Sorry you had to hear your friend talk about your kids and you like that. That must have been so hurtful.









2. FWIW, PPD can totally mess with you. If it wasn't for that, she probably would never do and say those things. If she gets treatment, your friend will probably be back to her old self. If you feel up to it, please do support her through her PPD. She probably has no idea how inappropriate and hurtful she is being.


----------



## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

I wouldn't toss a friendship over one bad visit. She was harsh with your son, but it doesn't sound like it's a recurring theme. People are allowed a bad day. I agree with a pp that she may not have wanted you there but felt obligated to say yes when you asked to visit.

Both PPD and thyroid problems can be very draining. Both affect sleep in tremendous ways, and if your children are bad sleepers and hers are good sleepers, that could explain some of her edginess in addition to her other problems.

One thing I noticed, though, was that you were not present in any of the incidents. She had the majority of the children. Is it possible she feels taken advantage of? I know of a couple of families who are that way. While I like their children, I don't always want 2 or 3 extra small children in my care, and sometimes I feel as if the other parents "check out" when their child is in the presence of another adult. I have lost it with my nephews before because though SIL and BIL are usually in the same house, they never seem to be around wherever their children are.

That does get frustrating, and while your children's behavior was normal, it may just exhaust her to have you guys over and feel she has to babysit & entertain unless you get angry and take over from her. That looks like the pattern from the 3 examples you gave.

Because you're there several times a year, I can tell you from experience that it gets draining to have other children all the time, especially when they are parented very differently from yours (from either side). I would take her saying repeatedly that she needs a weekend away for moms only as a serious *need* for her. She wants to get away with friends and not children, and that's perfectly okay. It's also a way for her to enjoy you without feeling overwhelmed by extra children, too.


----------



## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

usually when people have intense reactions, it's really a reflection of what is happening inside of them.

perhaps she feels her life is out of control and so sees your children that way. projecting her feelings outside of herself is a good way to avoid what is really happening with her. maybe she feels ashamed of her life and her marriage and so is seeking (unconsciously) to shame you and your children.

the sad thing is, as long as she does nothing about her situation and her marriage, she is unlikely to change her focus when you are there with your kids. she expects people outside of herself to reflect whatever it is she is feeling and so she will always find that.

while i do think that compassion is a great way to deal with her, you do need to protect your children and your boundaries. let her know you believe that what is really happening has nothing to do with your children, and everything to do with her awful situation. tell her you are there for her when she is ready to talk about it and please can she come and visit you at your house next time. and then let her know, there is no screaming at children in your home.

projection is something that can happen in any relationship, no matter how close, and the worse thing is, there really isn't anything you can do about it, since it really is *all* about the other person.


----------



## Sweetiemommy (Jul 19, 2005)

I'm sorry this happened to you. I think the yelling on her part was probably just her normal reaction to how she parents her kids. Not that she should be parenting your kids, but I think that in a close relationship, it does happen. I think you have the right perspective, that she is a mess and needs your grace. I know you feel sad about how she made you feel about your children (to a non-AP parent, our kids can sometimes seem out of control, because we/they trust themselves more and don't always jump when we snap our fingers (or whistle). This can be scary to a parent who relies on corporate punishment and expects children to obey immediately. Maybe she is right, you girls need a weekend by yourselves. Then maybe you can politely explain that she hurt your feelings and made you feel bad about your kids. If she feels like your children's independence and your parenting choices are threatening to her or her children, you might want to consider waiting until the children are older to visit. It also seems like her situation might warrant some one on one attention from another adult friend. I'm guessing she is really fed up with (her) children in general and another person's children just push her over the edge. I'm saying all of this from a place of giving grace. It is easy to just get mad and want to start a fight or never see her again. That's not what she needs, she is your friend. You guys can solve this, think of how you would advise your children to handle a difficult friend going through trouble at home.

I also want to add that being hypothyroid is a serious medical condition. No wonder she is mess, she needs medication or she can damage her health, not to mention treating others like crap. I agree with others who said that she was probably not in a place for having houseguests (esp children). Hypothryoid is so exhausting, depressing and humiliating. I think you shouldn't take her behavior personally, but you need to help her address her medical issues and the personal ones as well. It is hard to be a good friend, I know. But we can't just abandon our friends when they are in the pit. Wishing you well.


----------



## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

Before I started taking my Synthroid I was an irritable, depressed, over sensitive mess. On the day after Christmas I tossed the entire tree (lights, some ornaments and the base) off the front porch.









This is not how I normally behave and my hubby told me I needed to see someone. Once I started on my thyroid meds it was like I was a new person. Thyroid replacement is absolutely fine while breastfeeding. I am taking 200 mcg daily and still nursing my toddler.

She was terribly rude to you, but having been in her shoes I have a lot of sympathy as well. I could not believe how I acted while my thyroid was not working.


----------



## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *racheepoo* 
If you want to salvage the friendship, I would suggest that you talk to her, because you're just going to have built up resentment and eggshell behavior every time you and your kids are around.

Racheepoo, you're right. I'm not a good conflict person and I'm terrible with "fights" and such. I feel like I do want to talk with her about it.


----------



## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom* 
Do you have an agreement that you may discipline each other's children? I would never, in a million years, yell an another's child, even if I were the yelling type. And so much drama over sibling squables (that are normal) and not coming when called (by someone not his parent)? Really rather over the top, IMHO.

I would probably decide that its not worth taking my kids there for a while. Before going back, I would have a frank conversation about expectations and boundaries. Or invite her to your house but have the same conversation. Maybe over the phone suggest she get some help with the PPD and hormonal issues, if you are that close.

We do actually feel quite comfortable redirecting each other's kids. It's sort of a communal parenting atmosphere when we're together, typically. If I see something that needs to be corrected with her kids, then I gently do so and vice versa. Our kids are comfortable with this, but it has never involved yelling and physical harshness before this visit. It's usually a friendly voice and a tussle on the head sort of correction, and if it needs any more than that then we've always gone to get the other parent to deal with it: "Hey, your son is trying to hang off the bathroom doorknob. He needs you, I think." and that sort of thing.

Her kids are very well accustomed to their mom's need for instant obedience and redirect very quickly. They are "easy" kids to me because I can gently remind them with a kiss on the head that they can't stand up in their chairs and throw cheese at a sibling, or whatever. I imagine when I'm not there, she's a little harsher with them.

She has always viewed my kids as "harder" because they don't have a lot of practice listening to other adults besides me. I'm the stereotypical rural SAHM who gets to go to playgroup once a week with the occasional playdate but other than that, it's all me/all the time for my kids. Sometimes I don't think my kids seem to hear other adults besides me. It's frustrating because they appear to be ignoring other adults -- and perhaps they are? I haven't figured this one out, but I'm working on it --but I think that when they're intentionally misbehaving or whathaveyou, they're simply listening for my voice. Either way, they don't have the fear of being spanked/hit with me and so obedience isn't always instant and wide-eyed, let's just say. I have had to remind/ask/redirect twice a lot around here lately.


----------



## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

You're a good friend and person. I probably would have packed up and left before long. That said with my eyes, I think it's easy for me to see that she was probably seriously overwhelmed. She probably needs that control over her kids because it seems like her life is pretty out of control, but it's bizarre to expect it from yours.

We hosted a playdate at my place recently and usually the kids are allowed upstairs, but they were just monkeys so I told them all the come downstairs. One of the guys said NO! This is so weird to me, not that I rule with an iron fist, but with my 4 year old, if he doesn't want to do something, we discuss it, not just NO. Anyhow, it was a bit of a shock to be honest, and the way your kids weren't perfectly obeying her every word was probably a shock to her too, especially with her hormones behaving badly to boot! However unlike her, I explained to the little guy that everyone else was going downstairs and if he needed some quiet time, I'd find a place for him (his mom and I are very close). Bottom line, she handled your kids badly and she was rude to you.

I think it's very gracious of you to try and look at her situation and I think there is a lot to examine. Her PPD, the fact that she is overwhelmed, her DH not being very present at all. That said, you don't have to accept being treated poorly either. Maybe at some point you can arrange to go over there, without the little ones and have a talk about how your parenting techniques are conflicting and your expectations. Or alternatively, maybe you can host her? I think maybe for the interim, if you are interested in keeping the friendship, just being the support over the phone, until she is feeling a bit better.


----------



## lonegirl (Oct 31, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alfabetsoup* 
*If I was in her situation, work stress, lack of support, PPD etc, having house guests would send me over the edge. No matter how well I knew them or how much I liked their children*. Chances are she didn't want you there in the first place but felt she couldn't say no because you are such old friends, and probably she wanted to see YOU. I'm sure it would have been nice for her if it was just you, you could have helped her out a bit! As it was, you had to look after your own children and it sounds like she felt responsible for them too.

*If you want to help her, try to arrange that girls weekend if it's at all possible. It sounds like she never gets a break and could really use one*.











I so completely agree.

I am the sort of person that will discipline other's kids if I see need. I have done so with my neices with my SIL in the room....sometimes parents don't see what is going on. I do it gently-like reminding not to get too rough with a little cousin, or to stop taking things from a sister/cousin. I expect the same if my son is misbehaving and I am not immediately there to see and do something about it. If it is obvious that the parent sees what is happening then I of course leave it to the parent.


----------



## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Honestly, I would not be going to visit her again for awhile. I get her problems, but that's reason to lash out at your kids. Which, none of that sounded so bad for her to react that way. And I can't believe how rude she was to you. I'd have probably packed up and left earlier.

You're really alot more understanding than I would be.


----------



## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abimommy* 
I don't think anything your children was so terrible. She screamed at your children, she manhandled your son.

I think there is a large difference between "NOT YELLING EVER NO YELLING" and yelling for every tiny thing. I wouldn't be comfortable with her disciplining my children.

I can tell you love your friend but I would probably tell her she needs to seek some sort of help for this. She does probably need you right now, but it is not fair to your son to be treated like that.

Thank you for saying that; in retrospect, I didn't think anything my kids did was so terrible, either. In the back of my head, though, I was wondering if it really was and I was _that parent_ who the other parents really wanted to tell off for all these years, that my kids were completely out of control. I don't let my kids run wild and I'm constantly redirecting behavior. I do try to be GD about it, and I don't scream or handle them harshly.

I would never in a million years yell at someone else's child, either - and my friend has never yelled at mine before, which is why it's so far out in left field for me right now. I have always been comfortable with her disciplining my children because she has always treated mine the way she sees me treat them.

I realize my post reads like it's all about me/my reaction, but my first priority in all of this was my son. I asked him in private that afternoon if he would feel better if we went home because I felt terrible about how his actions were responded to, but he said no. He's very honest when it comes to what his preferences are when he is uncomfortable somewhere, so I believed him. However, I won't be taking the kids back there anytime soon because I really don't think it's fair to them to have to navigate extreme reactions from adults to this length.


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I can understand her frustration. This may have been building through several visits and she was just more able to handle it then. But her actions were rude and uneccesary. She should have addressed the situation with more kindness. and directness. How would you have felt if she had said "I am not OK with your sons behavior towards his sister. also I feel like he disrespects me and blows me off a lot. answering when called and staying with the group is a saftey issue here. etc." would you have still been upset? embarrassed? I likely would have been embarrased still but not nearly as much as if someone was ranting on the phone!!!!!! That is simply unacceptable!!!! I can understand someone not wanting my children around because of their behavior. I have been th one who had to end a friendship because of a friends kids behavior and her lack of discipline/addressing the situation. but I never really addressed it with her. we just didn't do things at my house or in enclosed paces (we met at parks and stuff).

perhaps you should end the trips there for a while until your children are older. just allow your friendship to grow without cramped quarters that two-three families in one house creates. that is a lot of people, a lot of different parenting styles and lot of frustration all around.

I am really sorry things came down to that. do you want to save the friendship? if so everyone needs to apologize (and I think her apology was fine. she should not have yelled at your children because that is not how you would do it. I don't think she was judging you for not yelling. just acknowledging that she knows you think that is in an inappropriate way to behave and since she knows it it was not ok for her to do it.) and accept each others apologies and let it rest a while. then talk about it with out resentment or judgment on either side and decide what would be the best way to build and continue your friendship. perhaps moms only weekends is what is best right now. then when the kids are older and more rational it would be a good time to start getting everyone together again.


----------



## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole* 
She sounds pulled thin and like she might not have been at her best for having house guests. She might have been just on the edge and adding three more people to the mix just put her over. Sure, if she knew she wasn't up to company she should have said but maybe she didn't know, maybe it sounded like a good idea at the time, maybe she didn't know how to say come another time or take back an invitation she'd extended.

She invited us to come about a month ago, and I think you're right -- perhaps it sounded like a good idea on a good day and she didn't want to take back the invitation. She's gone through PPD/low supply/thyroid issues before, but I truly haven't seen it this bad and I didn't know it was that bad because although we talk nearly daily on the phone, you don't really know until you see someone, I think.


----------



## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hopefulfaith* 
I truly haven't seen it this bad

PPD tends to get worse with subsequent pregnancies.


----------



## lonegirl (Oct 31, 2008)

Just a thought....Have you asked the question:
"Is there anything I can do to help you?" It really sounds like that is what she needs....and I would suggest she go back to her doctor and find more about her thyroid needs.


----------



## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lmk1* 
I have to agree that nothing that you've said your kids have done sounds that bad to me...sounds like normal kid things. Heck, saying you're going to bite someone isn't the same as biting someone! But whatever, that is not relevant, if you are present, you are the one to discipline your kids, not your friend. Especially since they were "fighting" with each other and not her kids!

It does sound like your friend has a really bad situation. But it sounds like visiting her with your kids is not a good option. I think you need to tell her that she is not to discipline your kids...period...when you are present. That doesn't mean just no yelling...but if you are there, she does not need to direct them at all. If she has a problem with how they are behaving, then she should talk to you about it. Would you feel comfortable disciplining her kids?

I feel sorry for your friend, but that doesn't give her the right to take it out on your kids. And perhaps her "complaining" about them is just an indication of trying to find some "superiority" for herself. It sounds like your family is much more the type of happy family she'd rather have...

As far as the whistling for her kids, you made me think of The Sound of Music where the kids were just expected to be little soldiers. I'm a little dubious about how she could've grown up in a big happy family ... don't all kids fight? I've never ever known siblings to not fight.

That's exactly it - I feel terrible for her, but I don't want her to take it out on my kids. That crosses my line.

The whistling part really confused my son, and he had no idea why she was so mad when he didn't come. I understand that she followed it up with verbal requests, so I did remind my son that when teachers/friends/parents, etc. ask you to come here, you do so and you don't ignore them, but I acknowledged to him that he didn't know what the whistling was for and that that was okay (I explained it to him later, when we were talking more about it, and he wanted me to whistle for him! I kind of laughed and told him that I couldn't whistle well, but more importantly, that when I ask people to come, I do it politely and with words since that is what I expect him to do...i.e., not yelling HEY! when he needs me. He got that.)

And thank you, too, for the acknowledgement that they weren't being all that terrible. I didn't think so, either, but like I said above, I then wondered if _I was the one_ who just didn't see my kids' appalling behavior and I'm sitting here constantly reevaluating whether they were truly awful by other people's standards. I don't think they were, when I try to look at it objectively.


----------



## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alfabetsoup* 
If I was in her situation, work stress, lack of support, PPD etc, having house guests would send me over the edge. No matter how well I knew them or how much I liked their children. Chances are she didn't want you there in the first place but felt she couldn't say no because you are such old friends, and probably she wanted to see YOU. I'm sure it would have been nice for her if it was just you, you could have helped her out a bit! As it was, you had to look after your own children and it sounds like she felt responsible for them too.

If you want to help her, try to arrange that girls weekend if it's at all possible. It sounds like she never gets a break and could really use one.

I think you're right, and in retrospect, I should have asked her point blank if it was a good time -- because now that I think about it, I would not have been up to guests in her shoes. We are old friends (college friends of almost 17 years), so she probably didn't feel like she could rescind the invitation.

I hadn't thought about the "girls weekend" very seriously since I felt at the time like she was just making the point that she didn't want to spend time with my kids ever again -- but perhaps you're right. Maybe she really was speaking out for a break and time for herself. She really never, ever gets one. Her happiest phone calls are when she is driving to work by herself for 30 minutes alone in the car. She celebrates with ice cream or something on those days. Now that I think about that, I feel sort of sad about it. Perhaps a girls weekend is in order.


----------



## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 
I think in your shoes I would gently confront her. I would call her and say something like, "I think you should know that I accidentally heard your entire conversation with Friend C. I think we should talk about what you said to her-- because while I know we love each other a lot, maybe we need to take a break from visiting if my kids cause you too much stress." See where it goes from there. She does owe you a BIG apology. And frankly, your kids hardly sound like they misbehaved! It sounds like totally normal kid/sibling stuff. So please, don't be ashamed of your children or your parenting!

While it's true she has a lot going on right now, it's not your fault or your kids' fault that she didn't have the wisdom to call you and tell you it wasn't a good time for a visit. She also should have had the kindness to apologize for screaming at your child, and the kindness (once she realized you'd overheard her phone call) to bring the subject up directly with you. Since she can't do it, for whatever reason, I think you should.

You are coming from a place of such love and concern for her, I'm sure you'll find the right words so that the situation isn't aggravated. Good luck, mama.

Thank you. After I dealt with my anger about how she treated my child, the bathroom phone call was what I was angriest about, particularly saying in my hearing "....and NOT YOUR KIDS!", which was so difficult for me since obviously -- like all of us -- I think my kids are the sun and the moon and the stars.

I don't expect everyone else to adore them, but I have always received it as an expression of love when people invite us to their homes knowing perfectly well that my kids are not perfect kids and I am not a perfect parent and it would still be fun to have a cup of coffee anyway. I think that is why her responses hurt so much.

And when you say "since she can't do it, I think you should", I think you are right. I am going to have to figure out how to address this.


----------



## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

Wow. How embarassing and confusing.

I agree with pps that your kids' behavior does not sound out of the ordinary for their ages. I would not consider that "being naughty." You don't have anything to be ashamed of.

The one thing that stood out to me was your friend saying," Maybe we should plan a girls' weekend without the kids." To me, that statement, combined with her impatience with your kids, sounds like an expression of a need. Maybe she really, really needed or wanted a time to just not have to be Mommy. Maybe she had hoped that the visit would be about the two of you talking and talking without the kids' constant presence, and then she was resentful towards the kids when it became about taking them sledding and taking care of them (which is obviously unavoidable; someone has to take car of little kids!). Then she took out her anger on the children.

Anyway, I'm certainly not trying to excuse what she did, and your first responsibility is of course to your children. This is obviously all about her, not about you or your kids. I hope she realizes and admits that soon. If you have been close in the past, you have the potential for a good relationship in the future. I think you are doing the best thing by extending her grace and understanding that she is going through a terrible time.

When my boys were little, there was a lot of tension between me and SIL, who had only one very well behaved little girl and who did not practice AP. Sometimes I felt embarassed and I felt like she was taking off with ther friends to vent about how my sons were such a handful and how I wouldn't just put them to bed at 7. Fortunately, we both exercised enough self restraint to never say anything. I am so glad we didn't ever say anthing because with time, it passed. My boys matured, she had a second chid who was spirited and realized that sometimes it's just a child's temperament, and now that they're older we just don't have the same issues. Now, we are pretty close and enjoy discussing parenting and spending time with each others children.


----------



## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
I'm hypothyroid. Not taking your replacement thyroxine (and you not only CAN take synthroid while BFing, you MUST or you lose most of your milk!) causes depression along with a whole host of other issues. Depending on how damaged her thyroid gland already is, a lack of thyroxine could actually induce a coma and death.

I think you're right about the medication/thyroid issues -- I always thought you could take replacements while bf'ing, but what I forgot to mention was that my friend is an OB nurse and I am an emergency/transport nurse. I can't argue with her about pregnancy/lactation issues.







I am, by all emergency nursing standards, remarkably well read about OB issues. I'm your classic MDCer in that my births were natural/unmedicated, and I was pregnant and lactating for almost five years straight, etc. The first time my daughter walked up to me and asked to nurse was the first time my friend had ever seen that. It was funny.

However, it means that she is *not* receptive to me telling her about medications that she can take while bf'ing. She and her endocrinologist agreed that she can't take meds while bf'ing, and when I suggested that she talk to her lactation consultant, she blew that off.

I see what you're saying and I totally agree -- she's been a low-supply mom for three babies, and I can totally appreciate that it's related to her thyroid -- and she agrees with that! -- but for whatever reason, she and her physician believe that she can't take her meds while bf'ing.


----------



## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
1. It sounds as if your kids are behaving totally normally. It sounds as if you feel bad about their behavior at your friend's house, but I don't think there is any need for that. Besides, they did nothing to _her_ kids, so why on earth was your friend attempting to discipline them? Sorry you had to go through that. Sorry you had to hear your friend talk about your kids and you like that. That must have been so hurtful.









2. FWIW, PPD can totally mess with you. If it wasn't for that, she probably would never do and say those things. If she gets treatment, your friend will probably be back to her old self. If you feel up to it, please do support her through her PPD. She probably has no idea how inappropriate and hurtful she is being.

Thank you. I appreciate hearing that. It was hurtful. For us, it is normal (although regretable!) that my children aren't perfect listeners and that they do sometimes fight. Would I rather they were perfect, toe-the-line kids? Well, it would be easier.







My kids look like a lot more of a mess than hers, since hers obey instantly when she calls/yells/commands. Mine usually do obey, but it isn't 100% all the time and they don't always do it simultaneously, so it seems like I'm constantly working with one or the other of them to do the right thing.

However, I think you're right - if it weren't for her depression/thyroid issues, I would like to think she would treat them with her normal niceness. I like to think she wouldn't be so hurtful if it weren't for those issues, but I started wondering if this was just how she has always felt about my kids and about my parenting. I am trying to look at it through the lens of her depression.


----------



## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

Quote:

She and her endocrinologist agreed that she can't take meds while bf'ing, and when I suggested that she talk to her lactation consultant, she blew that off.
GOOD LORD!!! That an endocrinologist would say this boggles the mind. Here is a nice succinct explanation from Kellymom.com:

Quote:

Thyroid supplements - used to treat this condition - are not contraindicated while breastfeeding. *They simply bring the mother's thyroid up to normal levels, making the mother feel better and increasing her milk supply.*

Symptoms of hypothyroidism may include fatigue, poor appetite, depression, intolerance to cold, thinning hair and dry skin. *These symptoms*, which are similar to those of anemia, may be wrongly attributed to normal postpartum fatigue, *postpartum depression or even breastfeeding*.
She really really needs your help. I am so sorry she was so rude to you and your kids. But help this mama-she is getting *horrible* advice from her docs, no support from her husband, and is depressed to boot.


----------



## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Is it possible she is hPERthyroid rather than hypo? The meds to slow the thyroid down are controversial during BFing because they pass to the baby and can slow their thyroid too. Both can cause issues with supply. Really, if she is hypo and being told not to take meds when she needs them she needs a new endocrinologist - that's like telling a diabetic not to take their insulin, you NEED thyroxine. I realise none of that is anything you can do much about if she believes her doctor, but it makes me sad to think how ill i was when i was hypo and just living like that for no good medical reason (which i did until i changed from my very unhelpful GP).


----------



## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VisionaryMom* 
I wouldn't toss a friendship over one bad visit. She was harsh with your son, but it doesn't sound like it's a recurring theme. People are allowed a bad day. I agree with a pp that she may not have wanted you there but felt obligated to say yes when you asked to visit.

Both PPD and thyroid problems can be very draining. Both affect sleep in tremendous ways, and if your children are bad sleepers and hers are good sleepers, that could explain some of her edginess in addition to her other problems.

One thing I noticed, though, was that you were not present in any of the incidents. She had the majority of the children. Is it possible she feels taken advantage of? I know of a couple of families who are that way. While I like their children, I don't always want 2 or 3 extra small children in my care, and sometimes I feel as if the other parents "check out" when their child is in the presence of another adult. I have lost it with my nephews before because though SIL and BIL are usually in the same house, they never seem to be around wherever their children are.

That does get frustrating, and while your children's behavior was normal, it may just exhaust her to have you guys over and feel she has to babysit & entertain unless you get angry and take over from her. That looks like the pattern from the 3 examples you gave.

Because you're there several times a year, I can tell you from experience that it gets draining to have other children all the time, especially when they are parented very differently from yours (from either side). I would take her saying repeatedly that she needs a weekend away for moms only as a serious *need* for her. She wants to get away with friends and not children, and that's perfectly okay. It's also a way for her to enjoy you without feeling overwhelmed by extra children, too.


You have a lot of really great things for me to think about. I have always assumed with her that if she sees something/I see something with any of our kids, then we can correct them ourselves on the spot, regardless of whether it was our child or not. However, we've always deferred to the child's parent to correct if that mama is present. That was the weird thing here -- at breakfast, I was five feet away but had my back turned while I was helping her daughter with her dishes, so I was present but didn't directly see my son's behavior. He had grabbed her hand silently and I hadn't seen/heard there was a problem until she started in on him.

On the sledding hill, I was present but further away: I was going down with the smaller girls while she was uphill during the whistling/calling event. However, the most dramatic event re: my son trying to tip my daughter out of the sled was when we were both observing and present. That was the part that really threw me -- that she ran past me to grab my son when I was already heading up the hill toward him, calling his name. That I was going up to deal with him and she went past me to do it was the worst thing -- that she was implying to me that SHE could take better care of it, or whatever, because I clearly wasn't going to be effective enough? -- that was what was so awful.

I totally understand about how some parents do "check out" when they're with other adults, but I feel like I make a very sincere, concerted effort not to do that -- because I HATE it so much when other people do. My brother's girlfriend is the worst offender, and although I won't go off on that tangent, I just really really really don't like when parents simply assume that you are going to take care of their children simply because you're watching yours already. I feel like I'm actually helicopter-ing my own kids sometimes because I really try not to let them act up in my friends' houses.

However, I really see your point -- it is exhausting to have other peoples' kids around, especially when they're parented differently and most especially when you're not feeling like dealing -- and I think I should have thought about that before I visited. If she's depressed/tired and not feeling like dealing with her own kids, then she is probably not going to feel like being around mine -- and that's what didn't occur to me.

And you know, you're right. Being away with just parents and not children is okay. I didn't acknowledge that because I was so hurt by the delivery, but you're right. She does need that.


----------



## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *umami_mommy* 
usually when people have intense reactions, it's really a reflection of what is happening inside of them.

perhaps she feels her life is out of control and so sees your children that way. projecting her feelings outside of herself is a good way to avoid what is really happening with her. maybe she feels ashamed of her life and her marriage and so is seeking (unconsciously) to shame you and your children.

the sad thing is, as long as she does nothing about her situation and her marriage, she is unlikely to change her focus when you are there with your kids. she expects people outside of herself to reflect whatever it is she is feeling and so she will always find that.

while i do think that compassion is a great way to deal with her, you do need to protect your children and your boundaries. let her know you believe that what is really happening has nothing to do with your children, and everything to do with her awful situation. tell her you are there for her when she is ready to talk about it and please can she come and visit you at your house next time. and then let her know, there is no screaming at children in your home.

projection is something that can happen in any relationship, no matter how close, and the worse thing is, there really isn't anything you can do about it, since it really is *all* about the other person.










You are right, about everything, and you said it so perfectly. It IS about her and about her projection and her situation -- but I feel like I was negligent now in protecting my own children's boundaries. It isn't fair to put them in a position where we usually "co-parent" when she really isn't in a place to do it. I hadn't thought about that that way before we went.







Thank you for your post - this gives me a lot to think about.


----------



## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sweetiemommy* 
I'm sorry this happened to you. I think the yelling on her part was probably just her normal reaction to how she parents her kids. Not that she should be parenting your kids, but I think that in a close relationship, it does happen. I think you have the right perspective, that she is a mess and needs your grace. I know you feel sad about how she made you feel about your children (to a non-AP parent, our kids can sometimes seem out of control, because we/they trust themselves more and don't always jump when we snap our fingers (or whistle). This can be scary to a parent who relies on corporate punishment and expects children to obey immediately. Maybe she is right, you girls need a weekend by yourselves. Then maybe you can politely explain that she hurt your feelings and made you feel bad about your kids. If she feels like your children's independence and your parenting choices are threatening to her or her children, you might want to consider waiting until the children are older to visit. It also seems like her situation might warrant some one on one attention from another adult friend. I'm guessing she is really fed up with (her) children in general and another person's children just push her over the edge. I'm saying all of this from a place of giving grace. It is easy to just get mad and want to start a fight or never see her again. That's not what she needs, she is your friend. You guys can solve this, think of how you would advise your children to handle a difficult friend going through trouble at home.

I also want to add that being hypothyroid is a serious medical condition. No wonder she is mess, she needs medication or she can damage her health, not to mention treating others like crap. I agree with others who said that she was probably not in a place for having houseguests (esp children). Hypothryoid is so exhausting, depressing and humiliating. I think you shouldn't take her behavior personally, but you need to help her address her medical issues and the personal ones as well. It is hard to be a good friend, I know. But we can't just abandon our friends when they are in the pit. Wishing you well.

You're right. And your note that she made me feel sad about how I felt about my kids was exactly it -- I caught myself feeling embarrassed about my kids' behavior/actions and even their personalities, and I was sad that I was feeling that way about my own kids. I do trust my kids, and as much I as think I think it would be amazing if they did everything I asked them to the very second I asked them to do it....it wouldn't be nearly as open or loving or have as many teachable moments as we seem to have. ((Although I remain convinced that having children who behave perfectly while at the store would be idyllic.))

But you're right - we can't abandon friends who are in the pit, and that is what I am trying not to do, despite my embarrassment and negative feelings.


----------



## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *betsyj* 
Before I started taking my Synthroid I was an irritable, depressed, over sensitive mess. On the day after Christmas I tossed the entire tree (lights, some ornaments and the base) off the front porch.









This is not how I normally behave and my hubby told me I needed to see someone. Once I started on my thyroid meds it was like I was a new person. Thyroid replacement is absolutely fine while breastfeeding. I am taking 200 mcg daily and still nursing my toddler.

She was terribly rude to you, but having been in her shoes I have a lot of sympathy as well. I could not believe how I acted while my thyroid was not working.

Thank you for that perspective. She's never been quite like this, and I really, really think it's a chemical thing. I would like to think that our visit would have been different if she were feeling better and I were more in tune as to better times/place/circumstances of visiting.


----------



## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joyster* 
You're a good friend and person. I probably would have packed up and left before long. That said with my eyes, I think it's easy for me to see that she was probably seriously overwhelmed. She probably needs that control over her kids because it seems like her life is pretty out of control, but it's bizarre to expect it from yours.

We hosted a playdate at my place recently and usually the kids are allowed upstairs, but they were just monkeys so I told them all the come downstairs. One of the guys said NO! This is so weird to me, not that I rule with an iron fist, but with my 4 year old, if he doesn't want to do something, we discuss it, not just NO. Anyhow, it was a bit of a shock to be honest, and the way your kids weren't perfectly obeying her every word was probably a shock to her too, especially with her hormones behaving badly to boot! However unlike her, I explained to the little guy that everyone else was going downstairs and if he needed some quiet time, I'd find a place for him (his mom and I are very close). Bottom line, she handled your kids badly and she was rude to you.

I think it's very gracious of you to try and look at her situation and I think there is a lot to examine. Her PPD, the fact that she is overwhelmed, her DH not being very present at all. That said, you don't have to accept being treated poorly either. Maybe at some point you can arrange to go over there, without the little ones and have a talk about how your parenting techniques are conflicting and your expectations. Or alternatively, maybe you can host her? I think maybe for the interim, if you are interested in keeping the friendship, just being the support over the phone, until she is feeling a bit better.


I think it was a shock when my kids didn't obey very well. To try and be objective about it, my kids obey most of the time, the first time I ask. However, some of the time, I have to ask twice...and occasionally, it's more than that and it becomes a Very Serious Issue with all that that entails. I don't spank, and that is as appalling to her as anything else about my parenting -- she has very firm convictions about children behaving/obeying immediately, whereas I expect my children to comply with what I ask, but I understand that it may not be in the "perfect soldier", Sound of Music-whistle manner that she does.

She thinks a "time out" for negative behavior is a horrible idea (because it's not stern enough) and I have never even discussed "time ins" with her because I can hear the commentary now.







I do both, but the fact that I don't hit my kids makes me a deficient parent in her eyes. We both generally ignore that fact to maintain our friendship.

Our parenting techniques do conflict, and we haven't addressed that in awhile (since we disagreed so vehemently about short-term CIO; and now that her kids sleep amazingly and mine do not...well, she doesn't feel the need to discuss that since I have so obviously been proven wrong.







). We talked about it with our younger kids, but haven't talked about it as our kids have gotten older and we've needed different strategies to shape their actions.


----------



## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
I can understand her frustration. This may have been building through several visits and she was just more able to handle it then. But her actions were rude and uneccesary. She should have addressed the situation with more kindness. and directness. *How would you have felt if she had said "I am not OK with your sons behavior towards his sister. also I feel like he disrespects me and blows me off a lot. answering when called and staying with the group is a saftey issue here. etc." would you have still been upset? embarrassed?* I likely would have been embarrased still but not nearly as much as if someone was ranting on the phone!!!!!! That is simply unacceptable!!!! I can understand someone not wanting my children around because of their behavior. I have been th one who had to end a friendship because of a friends kids behavior and her lack of discipline/addressing the situation. but I never really addressed it with her. we just didn't do things at my house or in enclosed paces (we met at parks and stuff).

perhaps you should end the trips there for a while until your children are older. just allow your friendship to grow without cramped quarters that two-three families in one house creates. that is a lot of people, a lot of different parenting styles and lot of frustration all around.

I am really sorry things came down to that. do you want to save the friendship? if so everyone needs to apologize (and I think her apology was fine. she should not have yelled at your children because that is not how you would do it. I don't think she was judging you for not yelling. just acknowledging that she knows you think that is in an inappropriate way to behave and since she knows it it was not ok for her to do it.) and accept each others apologies and let it rest a while. then talk about it with out resentment or judgment on either side and decide what would be the best way to build and continue your friendship. perhaps moms only weekends is what is best right now. then when the kids are older and more rational it would be a good time to start getting everyone together again.

To your bolded question: no, definitely not. I would have welcomed the question. I think my son was in the wrong when he grabbed his sister/didn't listen/tried to tip her out of the sled. I think his behavior was out of line and not what I expect and all of the other ways I can express that. I wouldn't have even minded if she had corrected him/redirected/taken him out of the situation, etc. -- it was just the WAY she did it all that has me so upset. I would have really, really, really appreciated if she had said that.

I do want to salvage the friendship, and I think you're right - I will let it rest awhile. We had a 6, 4, 3, 3, and 9m old in a tiny farmhouse, and it isn't easy under great circumstances.

I would love "mom only" visits on one hand - wouldn't it be fun to have you and your two closest girlfriends in a hotel for a weekend while your husbands watched the kids? ------ but on the other hand, it just feels like her insisting on that in the way she did was her way of saying "I really can't stand to be around your rotten kids", and if I accept that and meet with her without them, then what is that saying about my own attitude toward my kids? OTOH (there are three!), I see that she does indeed have a true need to have a break from her family life and perhaps this is an acceptable outlet, if all of us met together without our kids.

I think I will end the trips there for a long while, though. Definitely until the kids are older.


----------



## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Pickle* 
Wow. How embarassing and confusing.

I agree with pps that your kids' behavior does not sound out of the ordinary for their ages. I would not consider that "being naughty." You don't have anything to be ashamed of.

The one thing that stood out to me was your friend saying," Maybe we should plan a girls' weekend without the kids." To me, that statement, combined with her impatience with your kids, sounds like an expression of a need. Maybe she really, really needed or wanted a time to just not have to be Mommy. Maybe she had hoped that the visit would be about the two of you talking and talking without the kids' constant presence, and then she was resentful towards the kids when it became about taking them sledding and taking care of them (which is obviously unavoidable; someone has to take car of little kids!). Then she took out her anger on the children.

Anyway, I'm certainly not trying to excuse what she did, and your first responsibility is of course to your children. This is obviously all about her, not about you or your kids. I hope she realizes and admits that soon. If you have been close in the past, you have the potential for a good relationship in the future. I think you are doing the best thing by extending her grace and understanding that she is going through a terrible time.

When my boys were little, there was a lot of tension between me and SIL, who had only one very well behaved little girl and who did not practice AP. Sometimes I felt embarassed and I felt like she was taking off with ther friends to vent about how my sons were such a handful and how I wouldn't just put them to bed at 7. Fortunately, we both exercised enough self restraint to never say anything. I am so glad we didn't ever say anthing because with time, it passed. My boys matured, she had a second chid who was spirited and realized that sometimes it's just a child's temperament, and now that they're older we just don't have the same issues. Now, we are pretty close and enjoy discussing parenting and spending time with each others children.

Thank you. Your last paragraph really makes me think, too, because my kids are closely spaced - just barely 15 months apart - and by the time my son was old enough to have "discipline issues", I had another baby to contend with and I didn't have the luxury of spending all of my attention/time on my first child's behavior. For us, it was often a survival mentality, whereas her kids are all three years apart. She had three uninterrupted years to form her first child's behavior/manners/expectations before her second one came along. It was just a different experience -- when her son was 3 and her baby was born, my kids were 15 months/newborn, which is a whole different world. I have always had the feeling that she has talked about me with our other friends about how my parenting needs to be this or that and my kids were just so NEEDY AND CLINGY and I should have just put them in their beds and nightweaned them and shut the door and they would have gone to sleep......and so on and so forth.

I keep hoping that it will all even out -- you give me hope that it will!!


----------



## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

BetsyJ and GoBecGo, I appreciate your last posts about the hypo/hyperthyroid and the replacement. She's a classic hypothyroid patient, but I can really see she's getting terrible advice from her doctor. I might have to bring this up again.


----------



## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

And can I just say a big
*THANK YOU*to everyone who has taken the time to post and help me out?

You would think that after five years on MDC I would know how to multi-quote, but instead I've tried to answer some of the posts in separate posts of my own, which isn't nearly as efficient and hasn't really allowed me to say thank you to all of you and tell you how wonderful I think it is that you are all helping me with this.

So thank you all so very, very, very much. I love MDC.


----------



## lalemma (Apr 21, 2009)

Wow.

I think you are SUPER-compassionate and thoughtful and full of loving-kindness and your friend is lucky to have you.

I haven't read the whole thread, so this may have already been said verbatim, but: I think your analysis that your friend is just having a terrible time in life in general is accurate. Sometimes it's impossible to be a good host or a gentle friend when things aren't going well in other areas. Her behavior reminds me a bit of that of a child who keeps it together all day at school and collapses into a tearful tantrum when Mama picks her up. Maybe you are a safe person to show negative emotion to. (Not that I think that makes her behavior okay.) And I wonder if her various health issues aren't contributing heavily to her being unable to control her temper (again, not that it makes her behavior okay.)

Nothing your kids did sounds to me worthy of scorn. You didn't do anything wrong. They didn't do anything wrong. Your friend basically flipped out and lost it.

If you feel able, you might have a phone conversation with her and say something like "I know you are super-stressed right now, but I have to be honest, what happened at your house really hurt my feelings."

(I would absolutely not send her a letter about this. Just in case it was suggested. I don't think letters are usually a good way to communicate in a gentle, non-blaming way.)

And it does sound to me like your friend is somewhat nervously trying to make amends. She knows she lost it. I wonder if she doesn't have some dark feelings about your happy home and happy marriage when contrasted with her own, and then she latches on to the one "negative" she can find: your kids being kids.

I'm really sorry that happened. It sounds awful. I would be terribly upset, too.


----------



## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

I would be very upset and would probably not take my kids back until she got the help she needs.

I am hypothyroid. I have taken synthroid with both my kids and have breastfed both, one until 3yo. She is doing incredible harm to herself by not taking the synthroid. Synthroid is a replacement drug and is replacing her body with the stuff that it should be making, but isn't. There is absolutely no harm to the baby.

I urge you to talk to her about this more. She really needs to be on the medicine. If she is adament about not taking it while breastfeeding, maybe she should stop breastfeeding.


----------



## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

Thank you, lalemma. I was actually thinking about a letter, since I am so horrible at dealing with conflict in person, but now that I'm rethinking that, you're right -- it's a terrible idea. I am thinking about a phone conversation, but I'm not sure I can do it right now. Thank you for your kind words. I am sort of hoping that my friend was hoping to amend things with her call, but I am sort of wary of just never talking about this and pretending like it didn't happen. I just have to figure out the how and when.


----------



## momo7 (Apr 10, 2005)

You're telling US how you feel...which is great but I think you should tell HER how you feel which would be better.

It sounds as if you guys are great friends treat your relationship like it. Tell her about the trip and tell her how it makes you feel when she's upset with your children. If there is something that needs to be changed then work on it together. I know it might seem and feel awkward but maybe it really will work out and bring you closer.


----------



## MissLotus (Nov 2, 2005)

_Whistling_ for the kids? I don't know - I would feel weird around that to begin with... then add all the other stuff...

You are a very compassionate friend, OP. You are kind to not jump to anger in spite of overhearing hurtful things - they would hurt me too. She really, really over-reacted. It would have been one thing for her to lose it in a moment of feeling overwhelmed, but to carry it over to that telephone call... Seriously. Why isn't she being that "honest" with her husband? Because _that's_ where it should start: she would not be so overwhelmed with all these OTHER things if he would act like he was a parent too. She can pretend that his presence makes them the "happy family" she desires but clearly it isn't. I know there's nothing you can do about all of that, though; it's just weird where she's choosing to lay blame for her stress.

I would not be hanging out with her for a while, though. I wouldn't be mean or anything, and I would give her help/advice if it seemed like she'd actually listen (though she does sound stubborn - blowing off your suggestion about the lactation consultant - determined to stay married even though she doesn't have much of a marriage.... at some point, if people are unwilling to bend a little, they're going to stay in whatever rut they're in).

On top of all that, it just IS hard to have so many kids packed together day after day. I was on vacation with a friend once... I have one child, she has two... so not even nearly as many as you guys had. There were no blow-ups or anything, but man, secretly, her kids drove me nuts. I don't think your kids did ANYthing wrong or out of the ordinary, at all! I'm just saying that this little vacation, in my case, was like a never-ending playdate, and I found it exhausting. I think, even though she doesn't sound like my cup of tea at all, the last thing you friend needs is more kids, more parenting, more ANYTHING related to kids right now - it sounds like she can barely keep herself together, never mind a gaggle of children. And your own kids should not be exposed to her unreasonable rage. Good luck - you're a good friend to give her so much thought and good energy.


----------



## tanyam926 (May 25, 2005)

You are truly a great friend and since her behavior this past visit is not the normal way she acts I think that you are spot on w/ trying to salvage the friendship and giving her the benefit of the doubt.

If I were in your shoes I would probably call her up and just point out that the visit didn't go as well as it usually does, and ask if there's anything you can do to help. You mentioned that she doesn't take nursing advice from you but she might be more receptive if you mailed her some medical literature that contradicts what her dr is telling her. Just mail it to her w/a note saying, "Came across this info and thought of you" and leave it at that. If she chooses not to research it further then that's her choice but it might open her eyes to differing medical opinions.

It sounds like she has a lot going on and abosolutely no help and support, she is probably secretly ashamed of her behavior and is worrying that you hate her.

Whatever you do, definately talk to her about it. It sounds like the two of you have such a great friendship and it would be a shame to let it go after one incident.


----------



## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
I'm hypothyroid. Not taking your replacement thyroxine (and you not only CAN take synthroid while BFing, you MUST or you lose most of your milk!) causes depression along with a whole host of other issues. Depending on how damaged her thyroid gland already is, a lack of thyroxine could actually induce a coma and death.

...

I really think her medication/thyroid issues could be causing a lot of this. Is there any way you can talk to her about that? Before i got on medication i was short-tempered, depressed and unreasonable, as well as losing my milk supply.


----------



## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hopefulfaith* 
We do actually feel quite comfortable redirecting each other's kids. It's sort of a communal parenting atmosphere when we're together, typically. If I see something that needs to be corrected with her kids, then I gently do so and vice versa. Our kids are comfortable with this, but it has never involved yelling and physical harshness before this visit. It's usually a friendly voice and a tussle on the head sort of correction, and if it needs any more than that then we've always gone to get the other parent to deal with it: "Hey, your son is trying to hang off the bathroom doorknob. He needs you, I think." and that sort of thing.

.

I think you just summed up the problem. You say here that she doesn't usually yell at your kids.

I think you know in your heart that she messed up and that this was out of character. That is why you so desire to extend grace and forgiveness to her. What is holding you back is your own hurt.

I personally wouldn't say anything to her. My kids are so much older than yours that I can truthfully say to you that this is so normal. When kids are little and different parenting values are at stake, everything seems so big. Not that it wasn't big - it was a big deal that she yelled at your kids. But in the whole scheme of things, this really doesn't matter.

She seems like a true great friend. The soulmate of friends. Let it go. In your core - you are confident in your parenting style. That's all that matters.


----------



## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

Quote:

I personally wouldn't say anything to her.
I agree. As this is not an on-going issue between the two of you, I'd let it go, keep in touch, and visit again when she's got less going on.


----------



## VroomieMama (Oct 9, 2008)

You really are a wonderful friend and she is very lucky to have you. Give her all your support you can but remind her that her behaviors from the time you and your children spent at her house was not acceptable.


----------



## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

My friend called today. She apologized. Neither one of us were very specific or coherent, but we got it together. She is just really out of it and afraid of her marriage issues/thyroid problems and all of everything else. I feel awful for her.

I can't thank you all enough for all of the support you gave me. I've leaned a lot on MDC these last few years, living rurally and having next to no IRL support nearby, but this last day or so has really been above and beyond.

Thank you all so much for your wisdom and for taking the time to help me.
It really did, and I thank you so much.


----------



## ps4624 (Apr 16, 2009)

She is behaving completely inappropriately. I think your children acted like normal kids. I think you were parenting them as you see fit. No one was hurt, no one was harmed (until she started yelling!), and as far as I can tell, there were really no problems. I think you are being very generous and loving in your attempt to understand why she would act like that towards your children. You clearly are a bigger person than I am!


----------



## 98741 (May 17, 2006)

I haven't read all the replies, but I'm sure you're getting great feedback here. I wanted to comment on her not taking thyroid supplement. It is VITAL that she continue her meds while pregnant and nursing!!! An untreated thyroid issue can cause miscarriage, birth defects, and major nursing issues (which it sounds like she has). It also accounts for much of the depression and other issues. In no way does this excuse her behavior. If you are at a place that you can, please speak with her about her thyroid and implore her to look into this further. I can't believe a doc would agree with her going off meds ESPECIALLY while pregnant and nursing.

I'm sorry if I'm repeating what others have said.


----------



## ledzepplon (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alfabetsoup* 
If I was in her situation, work stress, lack of support, PPD etc, having house guests would send me over the edge. No matter how well I knew them or how much I liked their children. Chances are she didn't want you there in the first place but felt she couldn't say no because you are such old friends, and probably she wanted to see YOU. I'm sure it would have been nice for her if it was just you, you could have helped her out a bit! As it was, you had to look after your own children and it sounds like she felt responsible for them too.

If you want to help her, try to arrange that girls weekend if it's at all possible. It sounds like she never gets a break and could really use one.

I totally agree. It sounds like she felt responsible for supervising your children and this extra pressure put her over the edge. If you knew she was emotionally fragile, perhaps the visit with kids was ill-timed. Some distance might be good until she's had a chance to calm down.


----------



## ledzepplon (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hopefulfaith* 
My friend called today. She apologized. Neither one of us were very specific or coherent, but we got it together. She is just really out of it and afraid of her marriage issues/thyroid problems and all of everything else. I feel awful for her.

I can't thank you all enough for all of the support you gave me. I've leaned a lot on MDC these last few years, living rurally and having next to no IRL support nearby, but this last day or so has really been above and beyond.

Thank you all so much for your wisdom and for taking the time to help me.
It really did, and I thank you so much.































Oops, I missed seeing your update before I posted. I'm glad she apologized, and kudos to you for your kindness and understanding.


----------



## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Your friend is depressed with a depressed husband. They both need therapy.

And that's the point where I'm at a loss, because I can't think of a non-insulting way to say "you're being rude and insulting to your friends and you need help."

ETA: Ah, she's already stepped up to help the relationship. excellent!

But they're still depressed. So maybe you should be blunt about needing her to be honest with how she's feeling "I will not be offended if you don't want houseguests."


----------



## TanyaS (Jun 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hopefulfaith* 
I think you're right about the medication/thyroid issues -- I always thought you could take replacements while bf'ing, but what I forgot to mention was that my friend is an OB nurse and I am an emergency/transport nurse. I can't argue with her about pregnancy/lactation issues.

Then she should be educated enough to be able to read the information on Synthroid in Dr. Hale's book.

Quote:

However, it means that she is *not* receptive to me telling her about medications that she can take while bf'ing. She and her endocrinologist agreed that she can't take meds while bf'ing, and when I suggested that she talk to her lactation consultant, she blew that off.
Her endo is wrong and actually harming her. Would she be open to a suggestion to get a second endo opinion? Or what about Dr. Hale? She is a health professional and can post on his forum. One google search by her would show her her endo is VERY wrong.


----------



## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hopefulfaith* 
My friend called today. She apologized. Neither one of us were very specific or coherent, but we got it together. She is just really out of it and afraid of her marriage issues/thyroid problems and all of everything else. I feel awful for her.

Awesome! Now make her(!) get on Synthroid. It will help in so many ways. I was put on it while bf with nothing but positive. No side effects for me or the baby.


----------



## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

I'm so glad you got to talk to her about it without having to be the one to bring it up. Good friends are hard to find, I'd hate to lose one over a low spot in her life or one (really!) off visit. I hope things get better for her soon and that your next visit together will go better.


----------

