# Please Help Me Understand



## pajamajes (Feb 1, 2008)

I do not understand gentle discipline. I DO understand not spanking and not screaming etc. I also don't want to teach my child to do everything someone else tells her to do. I don't want her to be a conformist or not think for herself. But am I wrong to say that some things are just not acceptable? I think that deserves discipline. With older children, like teens and even younger than that, talking about why she did something and reasons why it is wrong would be my first route of discipline because she is old enough to understand reasons for her actions and what is acceptable and what isn't and why. But a child from ages 2 to around 6 or 7(depending on the child of course) does things that are not acceptable. If they are allowed to repeat those things without consequence, what is to stop them from doing so? Younger children don't understand what is better for them. For example, a 2 year old cannot process if they run out in the road they could get killed, and I don't want her to learn that lesson from experience. I also believe in being respectful. I have witnessed too many children hitting parents and cursing at them, etc. Telling a child to stop a behavior isn't always effective. And doesn't repeating your request 15 times or every day just teach the child that they really don't have to listen to you. Children pitching fits in grocery stores or malls because they can't have something they want is on of my biggest pet peeves. I mean throwing themselves on the floor kicking and screaming. I cannot tolerate that kind of behavior. From what I have read when lurking on this forum, the proper response to this would be to get on her level and say something to the effect of "I understand that you are mad that you can't have that whatever it is, but you can't scream and cry and roll around on the floor." What if that doesn't work, which I seriously doubt it will. Am I missing a key point? I usually am, lol.







BTW, I in no way an advocate of spanking. However, at this point in time, I do believe a time-out with an explanation as to the reason they are in time-out and a talk about it afterwards should be most effective in those situations where the child's actions are just not going to be tolerated. WDYT? I appreciate any help in understanding your views. I actually am a very open-minded person, lol.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Crap. I wrote you a book and mdc ate it.

I basically said by the time a child gets to be toddler age, you know them enough to avoid most issues. Like, my 2 1/2 year old, I pretty much know that I can't trust him in the parking lot. I know this because when I'm walking outside, in the parking lot, anywhere, and I'm holding his had, he is straining against me, rearing to go. I know this because if I turn his hand aloose in a safe spot outside, he's like a wild buck. It doesn't have to get to the point of me having to spank him (or some such) to teach him not to run away from me out into the parking lot or street. He is always restrained in such situations. (Stroller, sling, holding my hand, etc.) Right now he can't understand the ramifications of him running into the parking lot. Right now, I know his level of comprehension on this issue, and he can't comprehend it right now. So until he can, he has to hold my hand. Kids comprehend things and various different ages. My nephew, who is 2 weeks older than my child has been very good about staying close to you for quite some time now. My child has a bit longer to go before he gets to that level, and it's ok. I'll just "know" when I can trust him not to run out into the street or in the parking lot. No harshness is really necessary.

As for the tantruming thing, for me, it also falls into the same category of knowing my child. I know what he likes, loves, and doesn't like. For one thing, he loves wheels. Putting him in the cart or in a stroller at a store is enough to keep him amused for quite some time. When that gets old, I have stashed goodies in my purse, things I know he's particularly fond of that I can offer him when he gets antsy, or too focused on something he can't have. If that gets old, I have other techniques I use to amuse him in the store, (taking him out of the stroller/cart for a break or somesuch...) I know what things are $1 or less that I can get for him to hold in the store that I don't mind him having. (He loves holding a banana...) By the time all that gets old, I'm on my way out the door anyway...It's not even something I have to think about. I just know my child this well (most mothers do) and it just all comes naturally.

I also know when my child is getting tired, and it is very rare (barring on an emergency?) that I leave out of the house when an impending nap is coming. For me, to do so is insanity and is practically begging for heck in a store.

Basically, you have to be in tune with your child. If you are in tune with your kid, then you can pretty much guage when a tantrum is coming and many/most times you can ward off one before it's full fledged.

My child rarely tantrums in a store anymore unless I blatantly ignore what he's putting down. I'm ignoring the fact that he's tired, I'm just ignoring/not acknowledging that he wants something that he can't have, and redirecting that, or something of the like. It's like a dialogue with a nonverbal person.







You'd be mad too if you were trying to tell somebody something and they were ignoring you and you KNEW they knew what you wanted.

I'm still learning a lot about GD, and am by no means an expert, but I pretty much have those too scenarios downpat for now. Maybe it will get harder when my child reaches 3. But I understand his verbal and nonverbal demands and acknowledge them and redirect him to something else if I have to, and he is ok. Even if he can't have what he wants, he just wants me to tell him that I know he's sad, and now we talk about it, and then he gets over his (rare) tantrums MUCH quicker when I simply let him express to me (verbally or crying) how sad he is, and tell him it's ok.

It's harder some times than others, but so far that's what I'm getting out of GD.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617* 
Crap. I wrote you a book and mdc ate it.


OT: Often, if you select the "back" arrow, you can retrieve the post before cyberspace evaporates it. Nowadays, I copy my post before selecting "preview" or "post", since the server is slow.

HTH,
Pat


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pajamajes* 
I mean throwing themselves on the floor kicking and screaming. I cannot tolerate that kind of behavior. From what I have read when lurking on this forum, the proper response to this would be to get on her level and say something to the effect of "I understand that you are mad that you can't have that whatever it is, but you can't scream and cry and roll around on the floor." What if that doesn't work, which I seriously doubt it will.

I'll answer this question in answer to your bigger question. In the fit-throwing in public example, what happens here is that I pick dd up (kicking and screaming if need-be) and carry her out.







(she's 3.5 fwiw)

I don't believe in punishments as a rule.

-Angela


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

The kicking and screaming routine we just did today. So today in the choc shop after we picked out valentine candy, dd decided she needed another gift for grandpa's bday this weekend. I suggested some items, she wanted a giant box of candy. I might have been able to work with her and choose something reasonable budget and gift wise, but I had a throbbing headache and she melted down, screaming. I said "Screaming does not get you anything. We'll come back tomorrow," lifted her up (carrying ds in the carrier no less), and carried her out of the shop. Talked to her a short distance up the street about not screaming, listening and discussing... I don't think GD means never having limits! We'll go back tomorrow when she isn't hungry (we were on our way to get breakfast at a cafe) and get a gift.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

I think that GD means different things for different people. For me it is about approaching any disciplinary act with love and respect. No yelling, hitting, or harsh words. (words that are demeaning, humiliating, mean, etc.) Instead of "no because I say so" it's "no because let me explain what will happen if you do that" and sometimes you don't even have to say no at all if you just use explanation. I think that with young children if there are things that you don't want them to do you almost need to learn to read them so that you can prevent the situation from happening before it even has a chance. Pay attention to their expressions and body language so that you can almost figure out what the wheels in their little heads are turning.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Gentle Discipline is a HUGE catch-all term that means a whole spectrum of things, IME. But at the heart of it is a desire to respect children and teach and nurture them with the dignity all human beings deserve. Of course the debate continues on how best to do that.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pajamajes* 
the proper response to this would be to get on her level and say something to the effect of "I understand that you are mad that you can't have that whatever it is, but you can't scream and cry and roll around on the floor." What if that doesn't work, which I seriously doubt it will. lol.









That probably won't work in the way you think you want it to work. I think you want that tantrum and all other tantrums to stop.

If that's what you want to happen..there is nothing that I can think of off the top of my head that "works"

What is happening here is that you are just doing part of the process...validating their feelings. What you are saying only serves to help them understand that these big feelings(that are very scarey to them) are ok.

Before and after this a lot of things happened. Mom was getting attached and working on the relationship. She knows her child. When her child had that meltdown there was a reason. Child wanted something and couldn't have it, just couldn't cope with that for whatever reason(tired, hungry, temperament) and melted down.

After the tantrum mom talked to child..."you had some big feelings, I'm sorry we had to leave the store but we have to be quieter in stores blah blah"

and then next time there was planning for the success "packing a snack, going after nap, leaving child with daddy if it wasn't a good time for kiddo to be in a very stimulating store with lots of temptations etc."

and then there is the whole making sure that at home they feel safe, loved, happy, valued.

There is a whole process that involves understanding the developmental abilities of a child(which varies from child to child) the temperament of the child(again varies) and of course the temperament of the mom. We get to set a few reasonable boundaries too.

And a most important part is learning to accept that there is no perfect parenting, there is only an ideal we can strive for and we just have to learn as we go along.

I jokingly refer to my oldest as my guinea pig child because I made so many mistakes early on when I was anew parent. yet she's turning out awesome because I learned enough and we have a strong relationship and we can fix it if we mess up. Throw guilt out. It's useless and messes up our parenting more than any of the other mistakes we make.

You say "what if it doesn't work?"

What if yelling doesn't work? What if punishement doesn't work? There are no guarantees anything will actually work.

But I am loading my eggs into the basket that says that a strong relationship with your child will make ALL the difference in the long run.

Oh..yeah..and that's also part of it. A great deal of my parenting deals with the long run rather than the here and now.

Fixing it now might be easier but fixing it for the long run will definitely be better.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pajamajes* 
But am I wrong to say that some things are just not acceptable?

You are absolutely right. I think it is very important that kids know what is socially acceptable and what is not. I think they need to know what the boundaries are, and that sometimes they need our help to be able to follow those boundaries.

Quote:

With older children, like teens and even younger than that, talking about why she did something and reasons why it is wrong would be my first route of discipline because she is old enough to understand reasons for her actions and what is acceptable and what isn't and why. But a child from ages 2 to around 6 or 7(depending on the child of course) does things that are not acceptable. If they are allowed to repeat those things without consequence, what is to stop them from doing so? Younger children don't understand what is better for them.
My ds is 3.5, and he can definitely understand explanations along with instructions. I don't just tell him "It's unsafe to run in the road." I also give him instructions to go with that "Stay right beside me." I use a no nonsense voice. He is well aware that it's unsafe to go into the road, or to go out of my sight in a store. He is quite reliable in both cases.
He trusts that I have good reasons for what I say (well, I assume he does), and that I will work on finding acceptable alternatives if I can.

I absolutely do not allow hitting. I don't allow ds to even play hit me (Dp doesn't mind it). Sure, he tried it out in the past, but the phases were quite short. There were no consequences, other than an unhappy mama. I explained, made my boundary clear, and gave him socially acceptable ways of expressing the impulse he was trying to express.

Quote:

BTW, I in no way an advocate of spanking. However, at this point in time, I do believe a time-out with an explanation as to the reason they are in time-out and a talk about it afterwards should be most effective in those situations where the child's actions are just not going to be tolerated. WDYT?
I think time outs (and any punishment, except perhaps for related consequences) hinder those situations. I think, at best, they teach kids to "behave" for self centered reasons. The child is presumably unhappy about the timeout (or it wouldn't be punishment) and that will certainly have an effect on how the hear and relate to the explanation. They could well focus more on their current feelings, than their previous behavior.

They also typically neglect what I consider to be one of the most helpful discipline tools for young kids- finding acceptable alternatives that honor the impulse. This seems to be something that is by far the most effective if done in the moment. If a child doesn't learn better ways to express their impulses (ex: being angry at mom), it won't just go awat even if they know its unacceptable. They will resort to the best way they know to express it (ex: hitting).

Punishments can also be seen as "payment" for a misbehavior. They hit, they get timeout, and its even. It absolves them of their guilt, which is quite a powerful motivator!


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Toddlers will run into the street if they aren't adequately supervised. If they get into the street, that is a supervision issue and not a behavior issue on the part of a child. Why would you punish a toddler for doing what toddlers do? When toddlers get a little older and learn cause/effect, they stop doing that, but that is a simple developmental stage - it isn't something that can be taught or that won't be learned by kids naturally, just like walking or rolling over.

And tantrums, again, are perfectly normal behavior for toddlers and young children. My pediatrician asked at one well child visit if my daughter ever had tantrums, and I said yes and asked if it was a problem. She said no, but that if young children never have tantrums it could signal a problem - not that it is a problem but that it is one possible indicator, so it's something she asks at whatever age that was. I see no reason why anyone would punish a child for being a child. Children outgrow tantrums on their own so long as they are responded to consistently. I don't see how you can't tolerate tantrums. Can you not tolerate crying, or nightmares, or potty training accidents, or any other completely normal young child behaviors, or is it just tantrums you single out?


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## pajamajes (Feb 1, 2008)

Thanks for all the responses yall. I think I understand a little bit better now. In response to Mamazee's question about is it just tantrums that I can't stand. No. I also can't stand kids telling their parents no when they ask them to do something. It honestly just makes me cring. And the tantrums aren't really so much the tanrums because the child is tired or doesn't want to be in the store or whatever. It's the tantrums that are caused by not being able to have every little thing they want. You don't get everything you want. You get what you need, and occasionaly a want as a treat. It just seems like to me that when mama says no that means no, whether you pitch a fit or not. My biggest fear with my children is that they will be spoiled, disrespectful, little brats. There are entirely to many of them already. And everyone tells me that the reason there are so many spoiled brats is because people don't spank. I really don't want that to be true. I am very conflicted over this issue. Anyway, I know I talk too much. Thanks for the advice.


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## Limabean1975 (Jan 4, 2008)

Pajamajes, do you have children yet? It sounds like no - if that's the case, it is really wonderful that you are examining these questions ahead of time!

When you have them, and your toddler starts having tantrums, you'll likely realize that tantrums happen. They just do. Like a PP said, it's a totally normal developmental behaviour, like lacking bladder control. There are many things we, as parents, can do to help lesssen tantrums - making sure child is not hungry, tired, etc when we go out shopping, for example; being consistent and loving - but no matter what you do tantrums happen, and that's okay -it's a healthy release of emotions. It's not something to "tolerate" or "not tolerate" - it jsut does not work that way!
WHen my son is having a bad day, or a tantrum over something that doesn't seem that upsetting to me, I remind myself of a few things: 1. He is still, essentially, a baby. He has only been around for 2 years! 2. It is HARD being two. It really really is - so many things to learn, so many conflicting emotions, so much that you want that is denied. It is hard being two.


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## tashaharney (Feb 19, 2007)

i think those spoiled disrespectful brats are often treated disrespectfully and bought off by parents who for whatever reason have decided that kids are an inconvenience. instead of building a foundation of respect and clear expectation and boundaries reinforced with love and acceptance of where the kid is now, they are unclear inconsistant wrt boundaries and expectations, reinforcing them arbitrarily with violence shame and fear, and with no thought for what is developmentally appropriate. so these kids cover their fear and shame, and express their anger thru sarcasm and inappropriate behaviors.


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## IdahoMom (Nov 8, 2005)

Well some of the "brattiest" kids I know are from AP homes, so I don't think you can blame any one group.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pajamajes* 
Thanks for all the responses yall. I think I understand a little bit better now. In response to Mamazee's question about is it just tantrums that I can't stand. No. I also can't stand kids telling their parents no when they ask them to do something. It honestly just makes me cring. And the tantrums aren't really so much the tanrums because the child is tired or doesn't want to be in the store or whatever. It's the tantrums that are caused by not being able to have every little thing they want. You don't get everything you want. You get what you need, and occasionaly a want as a treat. It just seems like to me that when mama says no that means no, whether you pitch a fit or not. My biggest fear with my children is that they will be spoiled, disrespectful, little brats. There are entirely to many of them already. And everyone tells me that the reason there are so many spoiled brats is because people don't spank. I really don't want that to be true. I am very conflicted over this issue. Anyway, I know I talk too much. Thanks for the advice.


I just want to say one thing - you don't ever need to spank. You can be a strong disciplinarian and never spank your children. Hitting is wrong. There are so many other ways to discipline children, even if your goal is pure obedience.

Now, as for the other stuff - it sounds to me like you are coming from a mindset of children needing to submit to the will of their parents. You say you hate it when kids say "no" to their parents. You seem to think that children should just do whatever their parents tell them to do, without question. IMO, this is not compatible with my goals of teaching my children to think for themselves. Yes, there are times when I lay down the mama law. I will not let my toddler throw grandma's crystal vase in the tub, no matter how hard she tantrums. But my overall mindset is not "you will do what I say because I'm the boss". I will protect the safety of people and their property, but I don't demand blind obedience from my kids. They are welcome to question me, as long as they do it respectfully. Yelling and hitting are not allowed. "Can I finish this sand castle? Five minutes more?" is allowed, and if possible, the answer is yes. It's the respect I would give any human, and the respect I ask in return. So, if I say "No, we have to meet Daddy and we're running late," they will be OK with that (usually) because I've accomodated them in the past.

Some people think that if you "give in" to a child's request, you are setting a precedent of weakness, and will have to say yes forever after. Or, the child will nag and whine until you give in. In fact, I think the opposite is true - the more you acknowledge a child's reasonable requests and give them *serious* consideration, the more willing they are to cooperate with you because they feel like you hear them and respect them. The child is not your enemy. Kids need us to guide them and help them, not dominate them.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdahoMom* 
Well some of the "brattiest" kids I know are from AP homes, so I don't think you can blame any one group.

Omg, I so agree!

I knew one family who spouted all this stuff about being a child centered home and respecting their kid......... but if at 5:30 p.m he threw a fit about the dinner menu, you'd find the mom going to the store "johnny doesn't want lamb tonight" Not even my hubby can change the dinner menu at that hour! He'd be fishing for sandwich stuff if he didn't like what I made.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

For a long time it's about distraction...at least this is what works for me most of the time.

If kid wants something, I say "No", and leave it at that, a tantrum will happen.

But if kid wants something, and I say "No. Look, here's your race car! Ooooo, look at it! Drive it across the shopping cart bar there...ooo, look at it go!!!" Then, I get the child's mind off of what he wanted, and the car becomes more appealing, we've successfully warded off a tantrum.

Granted, this technique is getting harder and harder as my kid gets older and wiser to my techniques, and I have needed more elaborate and enticing distractions as he gets older. But also, now that he's older and wiser, I can explain to him in simple terms exactly why he can't have what he wants.

He's still sad sometimes. It doesn't dry the tears up all the time to just explain to him. But he's not crying because he's a brat. He's crying because he is sad and frustrated that he can't have what he wants, and that is ok. He is having new emotions that he is just learning how to control.

Sometimes in the store, he wants something, I say no, and there is some whimpering. Me, being the kissaholic that I am, kiss him many times on the cheek. It makes him know that I love him, even though he can't have what he wants, and usually by the time we turn down the next aisle, his mind is something else.

Usually, for my child, the buck wild all out and out kicking and screaming tantrums come from him behing exhausted, in which case, I usually high tail it out of the store. Neither one of us can deal with that.

However, just because I try to help my child work out his frustrations and allow tantrums doesn't mean he "get's what he wants", by no means. When I said he couldn't have it, I meant it, and if he gets mad, he just has to learn to work through that. Lovingly helping/allowing a toddler work out his feelings isn't the same as allowing him to get what he wants...


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

i think a lot of it is understanding what is developmentally appropriate behavior, and letting the child have the 'space' to experience that in a safe and loving manner.

toddlers tantrum. it is what it is. and instead of expending SO MUCH energy on my part to 'prevent' or even 'punish' to change that behavior, i validate my dd's feelings and let it runs it's course. so i'm that mom standing in the middle of the store, watching closely but giving my child the space to experience her tantrum in it's full glory. and even as a slightly over 2 year old, i take time time to talk to her on her level, calmly and quietly, and validate those very big and probably scary feelings that she was experiencing, while kissing away the tears.

and yes, we've had the big middle-of-the-parking-lot meltdowns as well, in which case i do have to carry her as carefully as possible to the car, but i let her do her thing once she's safe.

a lot of parenting is becoming aware of your own emotions and reactions. and i try as best as i can to not be reactionary. easier said than done, but the effort is worth it.

check out www.enjoyparenting.com , and you may like to sign up for his newsletter called the daily groove. it's really changed my attitude and opened my eyes to a whole new way of being, and it's not only positively influenced my parenting as well as all of my relationships with others.

and...WELCOME!!!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

As far as raising spoiled kids, I read once that you don't spoil a child by saying "yes" but you CAN spoil a child by saying "yes" grudgingly. If you give in to avoid a tantrum, or because you don't want your child to dislike you for the moment, or because you feel guilty for being gone all day, that doesn't send them a good message. So happily say yes whenever possible, and if it has to be no, stick with it. (obviously there's more to it, but...)

My ds had a tantrum in a store because I wouldn't get him a toy. It sucked. I am aware of what happened to help lead up to it. He was tired. It was the 2nd or 3rd place we'd gone that day. My grandma was with us, and she generally does whatever will make him happy. I had said no to many many things already. But it still sucked. And to be honest, I'm a lot more wary of taking him shopping since then (and I've told him that). I ended up carrying him out screaming, with him yelling "get your hands off me!" (I was glad that he called me mommy. I could feel people watching). We talked to him about it afterwards.
But it hasn't happened since. When I take him, I'm much more prepared. I make sure he's eaten, or take a snack. I don't do to many things in one outing. I tell him in advance that we're not getting a toy, or we'll get a healthy snack but not candy, etc.

I really cannot understand how any punishment would be more effective than what I did, and continue to do.

And kids saying no... I think it depends on what you're talking about. If I ask ds to get something for me, he has every right to tell me he doesn't want to. It's not his job to get the remote control for me. He almost always does, but I wouldn't mind in the least if he said no.
Ds's only "chore" (it's only his chore because he likes doing it) is to bring any stray dishes from the living room to the sink when I do dishes. Today, he told me he was too busy. Fine. My SIL was here, and she brought them in. He was playing, and IMO play is very important work to kids. I make ds wait for me sometimes when I'm busy, and I give him the same respect. He would have done it later if I'd felt like waiting for him.

Now, he knows the difference between "hey ds, would you do me a favor?" or "Would you mind X?" and "Do it now and I mean it." If I tell him to stop banging a toy on the floor, I would certainly NOT be happy if he responded "no" but that would be a rare occurance. Actually, if he did say no to something like that, I would be so surprised, that I'd HAVE to think that something was up, and I'd focus on what was going on behind the scenes.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I also wanted to mention that the latest issue of Mothering has a fantastic article about tantrums.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *philomom* 
Omg, I so agree!

I knew one family who spouted all this stuff about being a child centered home and respecting their kid......... but if at 5:30 p.m he threw a fit about the dinner menu, you'd find the mom going to the store "johnny doesn't want lamb tonight" Not even my hubby can change the dinner menu at that hour! He'd be fishing for sandwich stuff if he didn't like what I made.

Do they ALWAYS do this or did you just witness this once? I could see doing this under extreme circumstances. I had promised something else then forgotten







or child had been sick etc. Was it the result of a tantrum or because child was completely and understandably disappointed? Like he didn't like salmon, had never likes salmon etc.

If this is a common behaviour this does a child no favours. Yes, in moment, he's quiet. In the long run he's learned his needs matter more than his mother's needs. Well..maybe not if it only happened occasionally but if it's common practice I don't think it's a good idea.

So I don't find this all that respectful to the child because a part of the respect comes from making sure the child learns to respect others. ...I always try to ask what the lesson it will teach is before making a decision.

I respect my children enough to consider they are able to take a bit of compromise so while this might happen occasionally in our house(I could see it happening if a child had been sick or something) but as a matter of course, this is just shifting the balance in the home against the parent.

The most difficult children I know come from a very authoritative/spanking home. But most of the parents around her are definitely more on the GD end of things. I see a lot of well behaved, rambunction, happy, age appropriate behaviour

I see lots of "no" and "mine" and all of it is completely age appropriate. I also see moms cringe when their kids say it but I always go " completely age appropriate" with a smile and they relax a bit. A child will often do something before he's learned not to. Raising a child would be so easy if they came out knowing all of that







but they have to be taught. They are the centre of the universe in their minds until they are old enough to understand they are not.

This doesn't mean you give in to that every single time. You just keep it in mind every single time.

When I see a developmentally able older child exhibiting toddler like behaviour I cringe. I know a child like this. It is the direct result of a mother giving into her every little demand for "things"

GD isn't about saying yes to every thing..it's about saying no gently.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Every so often, I'll be just about to start dinner, and someone will say, "I'm just not hungry for that." I don't know if it's ever been my daughter - I think it's generally me or my husband - but it's possible it's been here once or twice. Anyway, if we all agree, we just go out to eat. So I guess on a rare day someone could see me and think that about me. Really, we're just very flexible. If the things I bought for dinner that night will still be OK the next night, and we want something else, we do something else. I've never thought of that as a problem. And if it's OK for me or my husband to feel that way, it's OK for her to do that too. Though in our house, it's a vote kind of thing. If two people aren't hungry for what we were supposed to have, we do something else, so she wouldn't be able to decide alone anyway.

Flexibility is good.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 
I think you want that tantrum and all other tantrums to stop.

If that's what you want to happen..there is nothing that I can think of off the top of my head that "works"................

..........You say "what if it doesn't work?"

What if yelling doesn't work? What if punishement doesn't work? There are no guarantees anything will actually work.


Yep. Of this entired thread, this line of reasoning resonates with me the most. Pajamajes -- you mentioned using time-out in your OP, and I had to laugh a little, trying to imagine implimenting a "time out" mid-tantrum in a crowded store -- that would not "work" with my kids.

You can't choose methods based soley on what "works" anyway, because the ends do not justify the means.

Quote:

I also can't stand kids telling their parents no when they ask them to do something. It honestly just makes me cring. And the tantrums aren't really so much the tanrums because the child is tired or doesn't want to be in the store or whatever. It's the tantrums that are caused by not being able to have every little thing they want. You don't get everything you want. You get what you need, and occasionaly a want as a treat. It just seems like to me that when mama says no that means no, whether you pitch a fit or not.
Well, I think you'll probably find that if these are your "hot spots," your own kids will find a way to press these exact buttons! A huge peice of parenting effectively involves examining your own triggers and idiosyncracies, and learning to move beyond whatever it is that "makes you cringe." Its important to spend some time reflecting on WHY these particular issues are so critical to you.

For me, parenting has taught me a lot about letting go of the need to control every situation, and learning to think a little differently about what it means to be in authority.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pajamajes* 
It's the tantrums that are caused by not being able to have every little thing they want. You don't get everything you want. You get what you need, and occasionaly a want as a treat. It just seems like to me that when mama says no that means no, whether you pitch a fit or not.

Just want to address this little bit here.

Children want things. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting things. As an adult I have learned along the way that I can't have everything I want, not because someone is constantly telling me that but because I have learned along the way and have developed that self control.

If you teach a child that "no means no" they may stop asking for things. They may stop pitching a fit to get those things. That may happen. The thing is that he still wants things. He may just find different ways to get them or he may just become resentful in other ways.

sorry..be back...baby calls

ok...I'm back...

So Gd doesn't mean you will give them every single thing they want. It's about helping them through their anger/frustration/disappointment(which manifests itself in a tantrum) when they don't get what they want. It's realising it's completely age appropriate and not punishing them for something they really can't help.


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

op, when i reread your first post a few things really jump out at me.

i think it would help if you took a little bit of time to figure out WHY it is that some of the behaviors that you mention irk you, or are pet peeves of yours.

where in your life have you experienced wanting something and not getting it. how did it feel? how does it make your body feel to think about this? where/when in your life (if ever) have you "pitched a fit"? what were you told about this kind of behavior in your family of origin? how were you treated when you acted "inappropriately"?

if you grew up in a household that was authoritarian/punitive, it is quite challenging to let go of some of your core beliefs about discipline and behavior. both my husband and i grew up in households like this, and mine crossed the line into abusive. it took a lot of work, introspection, and discussion for us to reparent ourselves and arrive at truly understanding and internalizing gentle discipline principles. the book and dvd called unconditional parenting by alfie kohn were both pivotal for dh and i. at times it was (and still is...) painful to look at our childhoods under such a lens, but it was something that we both needed to do in order to shed thosed preconceived ideas about children. i am so glad that we both took the time and shed the tears to do this, but we really do believe that unconditional parenting/gentle discipline will help us to forge and maintain the kind of relationship that we would like to have with our child(ren).


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## Queen of my Castle (Nov 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pajamajes* 
Telling a child to stop a behavior isn't always effective. And doesn't repeating your request 15 times or every day just teach the child that they really don't have to listen to you.From what I have read when lurking on this forum, the proper response to this would be to get on her level and say something to the effect of "I understand that you are mad that you can't have that whatever it is, but you can't scream and cry and roll around on the floor." What if that doesn't work, which I seriously doubt it will.

I haven't read all the responses yet but I just wanted to say I'm looking forward to reading them, because I, too, find myself in situations where I'm trying to do something (like leave the house when we're already late) and something needs to happen (like dress my toddler) and it's just not working and I'm left wondering what to do. It's not discipline, it's not appropriate to punish, and I can't just let it happen. Or when I feel a punishment _is_ needed but I don't know how I feel about it exactly- because from my reading I definately favour gentle discipline.
Anyway...back to read!


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pajamajes* 
Thanks for all the responses yall. I think I understand a little bit better now. In response to Mamazee's question about is it just tantrums that I can't stand. No. I also can't stand kids telling their parents no when they ask them to do something. It honestly just makes me cring. And the tantrums aren't really so much the tanrums because the child is tired or doesn't want to be in the store or whatever. It's the tantrums that are caused by not being able to have every little thing they want. You don't get everything you want. You get what you need, and occasionaly a want as a treat. It just seems like to me that when mama says no that means no, whether you pitch a fit or not. My biggest fear with my children is that they will be spoiled, disrespectful, little brats. There are entirely to many of them already. And everyone tells me that the reason there are so many spoiled brats is because people don't spank. I really don't want that to be true. I am very conflicted over this issue. Anyway, I know I talk too much. Thanks for the advice.

I am laughing here. Of course children say no! Of course they have tantrums about seemingly ridiculous little things! People who say that's because their parents don't spank are, um, deluded. In normal homes and families, both those with and those without hitting and other punishment, toddlers and preschoolers typically have tantrums and meltdowns, refuse to do behaviors that their parents want, and generally act like small, independent people with their own needs, desires and motivations.

I suppose you could abuse a child until he is so terrified that he doesn't have tantrums or want things or assert his will. I don't think that's a good idea.

I have a really exceptionally well-behaved child. He's kind. He's sympathetic. He's not noisy, he doesn't shove other kids, he's generally pretty happy. He laughs at jokes. I know that I completely, completely lucked out with him. Even this amazing kid that is making everyone in my real life think I am super mom (I wish!) has the occasional meltdown, dislikes transitions, and generally wants what he wants.

The thing is, he's on my team. We're on the same side. He's not a brat, he's a person. He has tastes, likes and dislikes, passions, hobbies--and that's been true from the very beginning.

You know how when you have a family, or a group of friends, or a community, you just know how to navigate everyone's little personality quirks? You know how you say, "Oh, tell Fred we're starting at 5:30 or he won't get here by 6," or "Janet will like Susan, they both like to talk politics." Well, gentle discipline is sometimes a little like that. You know that your kid is a certain age and has certain characteristics because of it (needs a nap, has to have a snack, can't go on three errands in a row) and also you know your child as an individual person (afraid of dogs, loves music, will play with legos for hours.) You take stuff into account and things go smoother, and also, you can be more forgiving when they don't go smoothly, because you know the score.


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## nancy926 (Mar 10, 2003)

So...you want an independent kid, but you want them to do what you say all the time, no questions?

I don't think you can have both.

Kids are going to say "no." It's not personal. It doesn't mean you are a bad mom, or a weak human being, or any of that. It doesn't mean they don't love you or even respect you. It means they are their own selves and have their own thoughts and desires and wants and needs.

Defiance bothers me, too. But I realize it is MY issue. It has to do with how I was raised and my own personality. I try very hard not to take that out on my kids.

Instead, I use humor as much as I can, and creativity (if my daughter will not put her shoes on, then we put her shoes in the car with her, and try again when we get wherever we are going), and patience. to me, these things are not spoiling my kids; they are expressing compassion, something my household sorely lacked when I was a kid.

And honestly, some things are just phases. Throwing food on the floor. Not wanting to eat your own food (Mom's is better). Taking all the CDs out of the cabinet. Whether you let these things go or blow them up into huge battles, they will subside eventually.


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

Lots of good responses so far.

I just wanted to add that it really helps to view your children's actions in the best light possible. That doesn't mean you delude yourself into thinking they are angels, but that you assign positive intent if it is feasible.

For example, one of our closest little friends (20 mos old) has a tendency to whack my DS (18 mos) over the head when he wants to play with him. It's not malicious; he typically stares at him afterward, smiling, then looks puzzled and starts to cry when my son gets upset.

Rather than view him as "aggressive" or think that he's trying to hurt my son, I try to make sense of the situation in a reasonable way. To me, it seems like he is trying to initiate a game of some sort, and doesn't know a socially acceptable way to do that. So I often say to him, "You wanted to play with Malachy. Throw this ball to him!"

If he were my son, and he then hit a second time, or had hit out of anger or frustration the first time, I'd hold him securely in my lap, restraining his arms if he was trying to him me, and say firmly, "No hitting. You may not hit. Hitting hurts. No hitting." After I could tell the message sunk in, I might ask him to "Show mama what gentle hands look like," and wait until he did (or model it with his hands). Then let him back up to play, giving him some guidance like, "Look at this little car. Vroom, vroom!"

For me, the key to practicing GD without falling into permissiveness or authoritarianism is to remember, in the heat of the moment, that I am much, much bigger than my child, and that I do have the power to make him do (or not do) what I need, if it comes down to that. Then I have the patience to realize that he is frustrated by his own smallness, and that I need to consider whether what I feel is important is truly important, and how I can meet both of our needs as best as the situation allows. And how to allow DS to maintain his dignity as much as possible, if I have to override his will, etc.

I don't plead with my son, or ask him to stop doing something 15 times. I pause and reflect, when possible, and recall that I don't have to beg him or nag him. I'm the adult and I have the power to make the situation what I want it to be. He does not, at least not to the same extent. So it's generally simple to find a solution that gives us both ample respect and dignity.


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## robinCBN (Jan 22, 2008)

I learned many things from my sister about parenting. She would let her children make inconvienent choices at times, just because it was what the child wanted to do (and it wasn't unsafe or bad behavior or any of those things). She pointed out that children get to make almost no decisions about what happens in their day. I find my self doing the same thing with my daughter. If she wants three forks of different sizes at dinner, she can have them. If I wanted that many forks, I would just get them my self, but she can't go over to the drawer and get them, she is too small. I think we take for granted all the mundane personal choice decisions that we, as big people, get to make all the time and that the little people don't get to make. As a result ( I think) of letting her make all these little choices if she wants, is that when I do make a request of her, she does it. For instance in the store I always let her carry around a toy of her choosing (I don't allow her to maul it or chew on it or anything) and when its time to go, she gives it up with no fuss, and off we go. This of course may not last, she is just 20 months now, but for now, things are good that way.

People are always commenting on how well behaved she is. We treat her as a whole person (a whole child person), not as a partial person, which seems to be how kid smackers view their kids. If anyone hit me because I didn't do what they said, I'd be beyond livid, even if it was a reasonable request on their part and I was in the wrong. In a civilized society we don't hit people. Think of an older person, perhaps getting a bit senile, fussing in a store. I've seen it. Would you smack your grandmother because she wanted a cookie and can't remember that she has diabetes and can't have one??? I think not.

Sorry for rambling, but I know there are a lot of different views on this board, and I am searching for ways to promote a better society for all.

Perhaps then, the goal is that all of us, someday, live without the memory of violence.


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## mkmb129 (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pajamajes* 
Thanks for all the responses yall. I think I understand a little bit better now. In response to Mamazee's question about is it just tantrums that I can't stand. No. I also can't stand kids telling their parents no when they ask them to do something. It honestly just makes me cring. And the tantrums aren't really so much the tanrums because the child is tired or doesn't want to be in the store or whatever. It's the tantrums that are caused by not being able to have every little thing they want. You don't get everything you want. You get what you need, and occasionaly a want as a treat. It just seems like to me that when mama says no that means no, whether you pitch a fit or not. My biggest fear with my children is that they will be spoiled, disrespectful, little brats. There are entirely to many of them already. And everyone tells me that the reason there are so many spoiled brats is because people don't spank. I really don't want that to be true. I am very conflicted over this issue. Anyway, I know I talk too much. Thanks for the advice.


My ped told me trantrums are normal, and usually are a result of frustration. He said that is just how children express their feelings when they don't know what else to do. Where I do not like tantrums, I try to remember I get frustrated, too. Sometimes I get angry, and will say something or grunt, or throw something.. and I understand the world around me. My 1 year old does not, and he cannot communicate very well to boot. It seems silly to say to my one year old, "I understand that you are upset, and that is okay. But you are not going to continue climbing on the arms of the sofa, you can fall and get hurt." Does he understand? Probably not, but one day he will. I hated being spoken down to as a child, I remember being treated like a stupid, insignificant little kid, which is all the more reason to treat my child with respect. I'm embarrassed to say that I did tap his hand once, out of frustration which makes it worse, and do you know what he did to me? He hit me right back! And he had every right. Hitting is counter-productive, especially when it's a negative behaviour you're wanting to correct, and only serves to confuse the child. I don't want my child to be afraid of me, like I was afraid of my mom.


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## nancy926 (Mar 10, 2003)

RobinCBN - I also let my kids play with toys and carry them around in the store. Then we put them back. It's always been this way - well, 95% of the time. Sometimes we do go to the store and come home with a toy. But most of the time we don't, and they are fine with that.

Your post is great, btw. You make a great point -- adults have "odd" requests and desires too (like 3 forks with dinner) - we just take care of them ourselves, because we can.


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## berkeleyp (Apr 22, 2004)

I think this has been and continues to be a really great, respectful conversation about GD. My dd is almost 3 and sometimes I just feel like I'm so unprepared for parenting and disciplining seems to be so important, so easy to f-up, and just hard in general. I was lucky not to be raised with any violence but my mom (who lives with me) can be pretty authoritarian. She believes time-outs with a timer are the best way to make sure kids have limits so that they don't feel out of control or act too out of control. She puts my dd in timeout for what I feel are small infractions.

Reading through this thread makes me feel a lot better about a lot of the things that I do. Above all, I try to be respectful of dd's point of view and try to accomodate her when possible. At the same time, she NEVER gets what she wants if she is screaming or otherwise being inappropriate. I try to avoid time out because it seems too much like punishment but I do what seem like logical consequences with explanations. I don't know if it's punishment or not but I'll ask dd first and then more firmly demand that she leave the kitchen if she wants to scream for example. I tell her that her screaming is giving me a headache and that if she wants to be with me, she needs to be quiet but that if she wants to scream, she is welcome to go to another room. usually she gets quiet or leaves the room but sometimes I end up putting her in timeout as my last resort. I would like to stop doing this but I am at a loss. I am unwilling to allow the behavior to continue and if my "gentle" ideas are not working, I resort to time-out which is usually very effective. She sits on a chair with a timer and I stand near her until she can get up. This doesn't happen very often.

Generally she is pretty well behaved. I'd like to think its because of my parenting but I also recognize that kids are different. Maybe I'm just lucky.

I just read Barbara Coloroso's "Kids are worth it" and while it didn't answer all of my practical concerns and also had a lot of stuff about older kids, I really like her three models: brickwall, jellyfish, and backbone. I think most people exist on a spectrum of these three and may move around more or less between them. Sometimes AP folks I've met IRL and here seem like jellyfish - mostly permissive under the guise of respecting their kids which IME doesn't work because kids feel like there are no limits which can be scary. I think having backbone as Coloroso suggests is a fine line between setting and enforcing standards and rules and being inconsistent or permissive.


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## aiea (Jan 27, 2007)

just subbing... I have been reading these posts again and again... letting it sink in... Thanks, mamas!


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kidspiration* 
*i think a lot of it is understanding what is developmentally appropriate behavior*, and letting the child have the 'space' to experience that in a safe and loving manner.

toddlers tantrum. it is what it is.

and yes, we've had the big middle-of-the-parking-lot meltdowns as well, in which case i do have to carry her as carefully as possible to the car, but i let her do her thing once she's safe.

a lot of parenting is becoming aware of your own emotions and reactions. and i try as best as i can to not be reactionary. easier said than done, but the effort is worth it.

I so agree with this!


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## maygee (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *robinCBN* 
I learned many things from my sister about parenting. She would let her children make inconvienent choices at times, just because it was what the child wanted to do (and it wasn't unsafe or bad behavior or any of those things). She pointed out that children get to make almost no decisions about what happens in their day. I find my self doing the same thing with my daughter. If she wants three forks of different sizes at dinner, she can have them. If I wanted that many forks, I would just get them my self, but she can't go over to the drawer and get them, she is too small. I think we take for granted all the mundane personal choice decisions that we, as big people, get to make all the time and that the little people don't get to make. As a result ( I think) of letting her make all these little choices if she wants, is that when I do make a request of her, she does it. For instance in the store I always let her carry around a toy of her choosing (I don't allow her to maul it or chew on it or anything) and when its time to go, she gives it up with no fuss, and off we go. This of course may not last, she is just 20 months now, but for now, things are good that way.

People are always commenting on how well behaved she is. We treat her as a whole person (a whole child person), not as a partial person, which seems to be how kid smackers view their kids. If anyone hit me because I didn't do what they said, I'd be beyond livid, even if it was a reasonable request on their part and I was in the wrong. In a civilized society we don't hit people. Think of an older person, perhaps getting a bit senile, fussing in a store. I've seen it. Would you smack your grandmother because she wanted a cookie and can't remember that she has diabetes and can't have one??? I think not.

Sorry for rambling, but I know there are a lot of different views on this board, and I am searching for ways to promote a better society for all.

Perhaps then, the goal is that all of us, someday, live without the memory of violence.

great post, really inspiring!


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## pajamajes (Feb 1, 2008)

Reading these has been so enlightening! I have learned so much more since I first posted this!







Thanks Mamas!


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