# :o(



## Max's Mami

Sorry to cause all the commotion.







:


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## twouglyducks

Now, those are cute!!!


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## twirlgirl

well now...your having a great fluff week arent you?!?
That is an adorable pair of shorts


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## TheGardenMama

It seems I have seen those before.....


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## carrietorgc

those are so cute! If you don't mind me asking, what was the $? And do you think she does custom longies (thinking ahead to winter).


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## summiebee

Those are SO cute. Where did you come up with the cactus idea?


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## Max's Mami

Quote:


Originally Posted by *summiebee*
Those are SO cute. Where did you come up with the cactus idea?

I live in AZ and wanted something that would symbolize that. My friend and I started looking at Italian charms of cacti and I thought -- "that is what I want on Maxi's butt!"

I originally was going to have her do fishes but she ran out of the color I wanted and I didnt think the fish would look right on yellow. When I saw the yellow it looked so sunny to me so I figured what better to go with the sun?!


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## Max's Mami

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carrietorgc*
those are so cute! If you don't mind me asking, what was the $? And do you think she does custom longies (thinking ahead to winter).

They were $27.99 (included shipping)! Can you believe that! That is the best price around!

She does do longies too!


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## Bella Luna

I love the yellow and cactus combination!









J


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## Joannect

Yowza! Those look great, good detail work. Nice price too. I knew she did customs, but I didn't think she'd do shorts or longies. You'll have to post pictures of them on Max!


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## dr.j

Cute!!!


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## Oceanone

They look great.


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## cajunrose

Ooohhh How pretty! How do you get on her custom list???
Stephenie


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## momsmyjob

Those are pretty!


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## Frogmorest

Those are freaking adorable!!!!! I need some!

Tammy


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## poisonedapple

Those are so cute! Love the colors, and the cactus on the butt is just priceless.


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## Slackermom

Adorable!


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## twirlgirl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TheGardenMama*
It seems I have seen those before.....

I keep re reading this post and wondering what this means...seen this wahms shorts before? seen the cactus embroidery?


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## carrietorgc

cool! Can't wait to order some longies in october....lol, i would order now but don't know how big dd will be then.


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## Max's Mami

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cajunrose*
Ooohhh How pretty! How do you get on her custom list???
Stephenie

Just look her up on ebay and email her. She doesnt have a site -- just an ebay store but she is really easy to work with via email.


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## AugustLia23

Does anyone know her Website???


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## MiaPia

Those are awesome shorts - love the colors!!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *TheGardenMama*
It seems I have seen those before.....

You may be thinking of my custom KSS that I got a couple months ago: http://www.koolsheepsoakers.com/kool...php?id_gall=92
We lived in AZ for 10 years, and DH and I were married there. I worked with Karen to come up with a pattern to commemorate my







: for the state!


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## JohnnysGirl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carrietorgc*
those are so cute! If you don't mind me asking, what was the $? And do you think she does custom longies (thinking ahead to winter).

Longies are 30 with US shipping--I ordered some.


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## beachmama

Yeah, the cactus looks familiar. Maybe it was in the KSS gallery?

Cute shorts, I bet your boy will look so cute in them this summer.


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## luvmy3boyz

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twirlgirl*
I keep re reading this post and wondering what this means...seen this wahms shorts before? seen the cactus embroidery?









I was thinking the same thing....I've seen that embroidery before....I remember someone making a comment about it looking like the desert/Arizona.

It's beautiful!!


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## luvmy3boyz

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MiaPia*
Those are awesome shorts - love the colors!!









You may be thinking of my custom KSS that I got a couple months ago: http://www.koolsheepsoakers.com/kool...php?id_gall=92
We lived in AZ for 10 years, and DH and I were married there. I worked with Karen to come up with a pattern to commemorate my







: for the state!









Bingo! that's what I was remembering.
I love cactus/desert scenes.


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## mehndi mama

I still can't believe you all would order this stuff from someone who *claims* that it is her 2 sisters living in China who are cranking out all these soakers out by hand. It plain doesn't compute, with the price tag on these things. I don't think many of you realize how long it takes to knit soakers & shorts & pants by hand - if you did, you'd feel guilty for paying so little.

Kinda neat how the BJM cactus looks EXACTLY like the KSS cactus, right down to the curve of the branches & the placement of the lazy-daisy white flowers







What a coincidence.


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## asimonte

Wow! Those are super cute!


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## NaturalFamiLEA

Awww, how cute!


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## lori810

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mehndi mama*
I still can't believe you all would order this stuff from someone who *claims* that it is her 2 sisters living in China who are cranking out all these soakers out by hand. It plain doesn't compute, with the price tag on these things. I don't think many of you realize how long it takes to knit soakers & shorts & pants by hand - if you did, you'd feel guilty for paying so little.

Kinda neat how the BJM cactus looks EXACTLY like the KSS cactus, right down to the curve of the branches & the placement of the lazy-daisy white flowers







What a coincidence.

I agree that it looks a lot like the KSS cactus.

But do you have info that her claims are false? Because it makes sense to me. The wage is cheaper in China because everything is cheaper in China - living expenses, etc. I have knit soakers and it takes me a while but I am pretty new to it. I am sure if I was a very good knitter, I would be able to do it a lot faster. I have bought 2 soakers from her and I guess quite frankly I don't feel badly about it. When you consider a lot of the big name soakers - BBB, MM, for example aren't THAT much more (~$22 for a BJM and ~36 for a BBB) it just that they are in higher demand with a lower supply.

I guess the question is, is it wrong for us to pay a woman in China less, if that is what she asks for, when her living expenses are less - should we insist on paying more - i.e. what you'd pay someone in the US? Quite frankly, the prices for the BBB and MM are way less than a good wage - i.e. if it takes say 6 hours (just a guess, it takes me MUCH longer) to knit a soaker, and you ask for $36, that's only $6 an hour. SHould we be paying more for US-made soakers on principle too? I guess I am just not sure what the problem is, unless we know that this is some sort of sweat-shop. The fact that she takes custom orders makes me feel like it isn't but I guess I could be wrong. What if these are WAHM's in China, and the $22 they get for a soaker is actually quite a bit of money for them?

BTW, I have seen other soakers sell for around the same price or less on EBay - mostly crocheted, not knitted, but still. And they definately look hand-made to me.


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## williamsmommy2002

Those are very cute.


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## amicrazyyet

ITA with Stel. The sheer talent that it takes to do some of their more complex designs are worth far more. Yes, you can get them cheap because she has someone in a lower cost area making them for her. I think it has broader further reaching effects. What if all jobs moved to lesser wage areas. Computer jobs have gone to India. Toys to Thailand. Vehicles to Mexico. Garment making to Asia, Mexico and India. Why not soakers? I have no facts to back up my suspicions, but the sheer number of soakers that are being sold on Ebay by BJM seem like far far more than 2 ladies can churn out. I am suspect, have been suspect for a while, and unless things are answered in a clearer fashion, will not give my business to them.

ETA. They are really cute shorts. I love Karen's design.


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## scrappinmomof3

I went back through the items they have listed from June 17th to today. 70 soakers and shorts. And that doesn't include the customs that have been done to date. And those are the ones with all the designs in them. Hello Kitty. The dogs. The stripes. Everything.

Humanly impossible for 2 women. Those are facts.

Meredith


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## amicrazyyet

Meredith~Don't forget they do wholesale in addition to ebay listings.


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## lori810

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scrappinmomof3*
I went back through the items they have listed from June 17th to today. 70 soakers and shorts. And that doesn't include the customs that have been done to date. And those are the ones with all the designs in them. Hello Kitty. The dogs. The stripes. Everything.

Humanly impossible for 2 women. Those are facts.

Meredith

Is the suspicion that they are machine-knit, or that they are knit in a sweat-shop?

I have no reason nor knowledge to defend or not to defend her. I am just interested in what the objection is - and I think if it's the worry that it's a sweatshop, I agree! But if it's just an objection to supporting non-american made products (even if they are made in a fine environment, such as a Chinese WAHM), I am not sure I do.


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## amicrazyyet

Quote:

Is the suspicion that they are machine-knit, or that they are knit in a sweat-shop?
Either of these constitute lying IMO. So either one would bother me. Advertise as machine knit if they are, not hand knit. It would explain the cheaper price. Sweatshop work is abhorrent to me.


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## linnea

I figured that she must have offered knitting work to other women, aside from her relatives, once business picked up and she knew there was a market for it.


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## Mina

I agree with the posters that there is something more to it. There are too many soakers for 2 women to be knitting. And something that isn't being taken into acct when figuring the price, is that Karen is making a profit on it, plus there is the cost of wool. That will leave very little for the actual knitter to be making per soaker if they're selling so cheaply to begin with. I'm curious just how much she is paying the knitters for the work and if they have to supply their own wool and needles.

The poster that calculated that if you take 6 hours to knit a soaker and charge $36 for it, you're making $6 an hour is forgetting the cost of yarn and other materials.


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## lori810

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mina*
I agree with the posters that there is something more to it. There are too many soakers for 2 women to be knitting. And something that isn't being taken into acct when figuring the price, is that Karen is making a profit on it, plus there is the cost of wool. That will leave very little for the actual knitter to be making per soaker if they're selling so cheaply to begin with. I'm curious just how much she is paying the knitters for the work and if they have to supply their own wool and needles.

The poster that calculated that if you take 6 hours to knit a soaker and charge $36 for it, you're making $6 an hour is forgetting the cost of yarn and other materials.

Very true! But isn't the same thing true of U.S. WAHM's knitting soakers? And plus so many of the WAHM's here hand-dye their own yarn, reducing their per hour pay even further since that takes a while too. I am not arguing that there isn;t something fishy going on here. It does seem hard to understand, yet I guess I gave her the benefit of the doubt and as someone above said assumed that she gave out the work to more people as business picked up. But I am also saying that hand-knitting soakers is generally a tough way to recoup your time monetarily, unless you are charging a couple hundred of dallers per soaker!


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## scrappinmomof3

But isn't a US WAHM there for the love of the craft (and to make a little money, too of course)? And she is the only one knitting her wares. Therein lies the difference.


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## Mina

Exactly. I do knit my soakers to sell, and I know how much money there is to made. It's a small profit margin. If I further diluted that by using a middleman, there would be virtually no money to be made. I would knit even if there was no money to be made, though, because I love it. Only then my poor wool deprived kiddos would get more goodies.

I don't know if she is or isn't doing something fishy, but I would definitely be interested in knowing what she pays her knitters.


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## ustasmom

Aside from the fact, 70 soakers is just impossible to do within that short amount of time. And, where did they come up with the idea for the identical design as Karen's? That is bothersome. They infringed on Karen's idea.

Plagiarism=


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## Mina

I'm confused by the Karens! Are both the KSS mama and the BJ Marketplace sellers named Karen?


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## pamelamama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mina*
I'm confused by the Karens! Are both the KSS mama and the BJ Marketplace sellers named Karen?


Yes they are both Karens.


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## Mina

Ty


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## linnea

I thought the cactus was a custom? Perhaps the customer showed BJM-Karen a picture of the KSS-Karen's cactus and said, "like this please"? She did say that she was inspired by that soaker, didn't she?


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## quest4quiet

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amicrazyyet*
I am suspect, have been suspect for a while, and unless things are answered in a clearer fashion, will not give my business to them.










I agree wholeheartedly. I'm always on the lookout for cheap wool, but I've never been able to bring myself to buy from her b/c something just seems...off, for lack of a better word.

Adorable shorts, though. Much cuter than some of the mutant animals, lol.


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## amicrazyyet

Quote:

BJM-Karen a picture of the KSS-Karen's cactus and said, "like this please"?
If you take inspiration from a drawing or design it is cool, to obviously copy it is plagarism. It is an integrity issue. I can copy a design of a diaper for my child, but to profit off someone else's copyrighted art is wrong.


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## Morwenna

While I totally agree that one can be 'inspired' by another's work...inspired is different than blatant copying
Here's the BJM

and here's the KSS one

I also find it highly suspect the sheer # of these BJM's that are being cranked out.


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## pamelamama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mina*
Ty


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## pamelamama

I've always felt vaguely uncomfortable with BJM.


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## ustasmom

I would be madder than a hatter if I saw my custom KSS design being knocked off. And I'm sure that Mia and Karen aren't all that pleased about it.

Madder than a hatter, I'll tell you...







:


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## gamom

those shorts are too cute.


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## mom2fourdarlings

Wow that copy of Karen's soaker is cute~to bad so sad that an original design could not be made and hers had to be copied, unless it was done with her knowledge???? Otherwise as cute as it is, it is theft of someone else's design and hard work.

As for the marketplace on ebay, let's be real, that is not just 2 sisters knitting in China







To much volume-and there will never be any way to know if they are sweat shop diapers. If she said "no way" and you took her word on that you would be taking a total strangers word without any proof.

As for supporting OUT of USA wahms, well as much as we rationalize it of saving a $ and support overseas women, it is not a good thing because you will never know just what you are really supporting









To much has left the USA, work force wise now DIAPERS as well









They are cheap, and you may save a $ but will you still have the "so what" attitude if your dh is laid off when his company desides that labor overseas is cheaper??


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## PatchyMama

It sucks the embroidery idea was copied







Unfortunately it happens all the time tho so I guess im not really surprised... all those elmos, nemo, blues clues, etc applique diapers/soakers are ripping off the original creators as well, it sucks all around IMO









I'm bet that based on the sheer amount of soakers they are knit on a machine, tho i think slave labor could be a stretch. But I'm ok with a machine knit soaker for the cost..... something I wont mind the baby getting dirty and messy (unlike my MM or other more expensive soakers).

As for the price







.... they arent the first people to put cheaper soakers out there... there are tons on ebay that go for much less. As consumers its not our job to make sure WAHMs set a fair price no matter if they are hand knitting, machine knitting, or sewing. There will always be people who undercharge, and always people who buy them for a multitude of reasons. IMO its not fair to say its ok for a US wahm to undercharge and then say its not ok for someone else to do it just because they may have different reasons for doing it.

ETA : if anyone has any recommandations for a good quality, durable, arrodable (but fair







) soaker made by a US wahm PLEASE post it. That way people know there is a choice and that they dont have to support someone who may or may not be questionable.... if that makes sense, lol. I think a lot of the reason why she gets so much attention is because she provides something that is hard to find... instock. For moms who NEED soakers thats a big deal and sometimes leaves them without a choice. yeah i rambled, i should go to bed, lol.


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## TheGardenMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twirlgirl*
I keep re reading this post and wondering what this means...seen this wahms shorts before? seen the cactus embroidery?









Yes, I meant I had seen the design before. And it *was* on Karen's (KSS) site.

It's sad, but WAHMs have been copied for years by other WAHMs - it's one of those chances you take when you put your heart in a design. I've never seen a copy that improved on the original though!

I have looked at the Marketplace soakers, but I don't think I would buy one either. I support USA goods, and that includes WAHMs. I'd rather that my hard earned money become someone else's hard earned money.


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## lestouffer

I find that it is near impossible to think that 2 women can generate this much fluff by hand. If they are machine knit and that is why the cost is low, that is fine, but it needes to be stated. I agree with all the other soaker knitting WAHMs on here that by advertising the same product that we spend so much time making and then selling it at such a low price, she is belittling our product. There is a difference, if only not to knock off/ steal anothers idea. I do agree that I would rather my kid play in the mud in a 20 soaker than a $300 MM one, but still. JUST TOO FISHY!


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## twirlgirl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TheGardenMama*
Yes, I meant I had seen the design before. And it *was* on Karen's (KSS) site.

It's sad, but WAHMs have been copied for years by other WAHMs - it's one of those chances you take when you put your heart in a design. I've never seen a copy that improved on the original though!

I have looked at the Marketplace soakers, but I don't think I would buy one either. I support USA goods, and that includes WAHMs. I'd rather that my hard earned money become someone else's hard earned money.

yeah everything is clear as mud to me right now.
I hadnt seen Karen's cactus at all...so hence...my confusion









At first this was my assumption and thought to myself...a cactus is a cactus is a cactus...but THIS cactus is an exact replica









I dont know the Marketplace person, but I totally agree with Stella! Hand knit soakers, take so much time and work! When I first saw the price listed for those shorts I nearly spit what I was drinking at the time, all over my computer screen! For a pair of shorts, by the time you cover yarn....the person who hand knit them, literally made pennies per hour time spent on them (if that is indeed the case!)


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## BowNessMonster

Re: copying another wahms' artwork: Guess it all boils down to integrity of the individual WAHM. I'm not so fussy about licensed characters, Nemo, Hello Kitty etc, though I personally won't do them. HOWEVER!















to the WAHM's who blatantly copy *HAND DRAWN ONE-OF-A-KIND* appliquee artwork (they know who they are , karma karma)
and














to the customers who ask the WAHM's to copy!!!

It's one thing to say "I love cats. Can you draw me a nice kitty appliquee?" but it's not cool to say "I love this XYZ cover and I need this appliquee"
















to all the wahm's who strive to create original designs!








ks


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## Rising Sun

You know, at one point I was so tempted to buy a BJM soaker... because of the price. But, I kept wondering about them.... who knits them? What am I supporting?

What if they are being knit by 8,9,10 year olds, who know that if they don't crank out a certain amount per day they won't eat that day? What if they are being knit by women who are being mistreated, and don't benefit from their own labor? For me, it's not a matter of proving that they are, but proving that they aren't.

So, I would rather my kid wear the $200 custom soaker from MM or KSS, etc. and get it dirty... while I know that their children are treated well and the mom's are knitting these soakers in their homes, and are benefiting from my purchase. I guess it all just boils down to what I believe and how firmly.

So, I have decided that if I want a lower cost soaker instock, I'll look at the wahms who are just starting out and still have their prices low. I saw so many on ebay that weren't even selling, but were priced very low. The wahm was just starting out and getting her name out there.... and they looked very nice. She also did custom.... and I started bidding on her stuff, because I emailed her back and forth for a while and knew who she was.

I guess it's like... I will pay a little more for organic food, so why not pay a little more for a soaker that I know is knit by a mom who is staying home with her kids?

About the copying.... to copy another wahm's art, IMO, is very wrong. It is actually hurtful to the wahm.... they feel invaded. It is stealing, and they feel like they have been stollen from. If a customer emailed me and asked me to do a custom order by copying so and so's diapers, I would say, "NO way!" and be done with it. That sort of stuff just bothers me. Wahms put way too much into what they do to have somebody just rip it off.

Teri


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## mehndi mama

My objection is mainly *misrepresentation*. If you're going to go through the trouble of providing someone with a story about where your product comes from, and how it's made, BE TRUTHFUL. The BJM-Karen has told people repeatedly that her soakers are hand-knit, not machine knit, and are made by her 2 sisters who are living in China. Not just sisters in general, but HER TWO sisters.
So how can two individuals crank out...what was it? 70 soakers? in one month, along with custom AND wholesale orders? They can't. Therefore, her product is misrepresented, and we are not getting the whole story.

And yes, I do think that domestic soaker-making WAHM's should be charging much more for their work. But how can they when they have to compete against such low prices? Even diaper-makers aren't charging fair wage, because they would not be able to sell their wares if they did.


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## twirlgirl

can I get an amen? (diaper making, soaker making wahms charging too little for what they do)

I dont usually browse ebay (or other sites ofr that matter) for other soakers so I had no idea about this seller or that she even existed


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## PatchyMama

Just a note, that everyone may want to be careful about assuming anything about this person or her business. No one knows what is really going on, no one knows she is lying, no one knows she isnt. I'm not sure its fair to come on a public board and say that she has to be lying or that she has to be using child labor or making possibly harmful accusations without any proof. If any one of you soaker WAHMS who have posted to this thread were getting bashed on MDC saying you were using a machine to knit or that you were doing something unethical (without proof or giving you the chance to respond) you would be hurt and angry...









Maybe someone should just email her and ask her how they manage to knit so many? And when those soakers were counted (per month) did they all sell? is it possible that a lot of them dont sell and they are relisted? or maybe they have a lot of stock leftover because their soakers didnt always get so much attention and always sell and they are listing more of stuff they had previously knitted since there is demand? Who knows.. none of us have any real idea of what is going on, so maybe we should hold off on making judgements or assumptions. I dont know this woman, dont have any reason to defend her... but i personally am not comfortable with assumptions being spread that could possibly ruin her business without factual information.









ETA: thats not to say people cant not buy them for whatever reasons are important to them... every customer has a right to buy or not buy whatever they want and for whatever reason they want. I just wanted to play devils advocate and put out other possibilities to be fair.


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## Joannect

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2kyla*
Just a note, that everyone may want to be careful about assuming anything about this person or her business. No one knows what is really going on, no one knows she is lying, no one knows she isnt. I'm not sure its fair to come on a public board and say that she has to be lying or that she has to be using child labor or making possibly harmful accusations without any proof. If any one of you soaker WAHMS who have posted to this thread were getting bashed on MDC saying you were using a machine to knit or that you were doing something unethical (without proof or giving you the chance to respond) you would be hurt and angry...









Maybe someone should just email her and ask her how they manage to knit so many? And when those soakers were counted (per month) did they all sell? is it possible that a lot of them dont sell and they are relisted? or maybe they have a lot of stock leftover because their soakers didnt always get so much attention and always sell and they are listing more of stuff they had previously knitted since there is demand? Who knows.. none of us have any real idea of what is going on, so maybe we should hold off on making judgements or assumptions. I dont know this woman, dont have any reason to defend her... but i personally am not comfortable with assumptions being spread that could possibly ruin her business without factual information.









ETA: thats not to say people cant not buy them for whatever reasons are important to them... every customer has a right to buy or not buy whatever they want and for whatever reason they want. I just wanted to play devils advocate and put out other possibilities to be fair.

























ITA, very well said Tiffany!


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## Book Addict Jen

She told me it was women & 2 of them were her sisters. So it sounds like there are more than 2.


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## Lauira

I have read she gets pretty defensive when asked. I suspect that she has been questioned about this more than once!


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## ~*~MamaJava~*~

Aside from all the other stuff, I just wanted to add that I think they definitely DO relist items. There was a while ago that it didn't look like anything was selling. There are a few other ebay based companies with lots of stuff up for auction but a lot of it is relisted and relisted til it goes.


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## mehndi mama

Okay, Jen - that makes more sense.
If it were more women than just the two, the production volume is definitely plausible.


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## Book Addict Jen

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lauira*
I have read she gets pretty defensive when asked. I suspect that she has been questioned about this more than once!

I would get tired of all the questions too. Not all moms are nice when they ask, they can be confrontive. That would sure put me on the defensive.


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## kimberlylibby

Yes, I was just going to say the same thing.... it is more than 2 women, 2 of them are either her sisters or her SIL's. They have a family shop where they make suits and they have a place where they knit there as well.

She and I talked long and in depth about things, and I can say that I am fairly comfortable with saying she treats them well.

The area of China in which they live has a very very low cost of living.

I'm not saying you should all run out and buy it, but I don't *think* it is a sweatshop. I am pretty certain she's being honest on that.

And honestly, jobs are hard to get in China, and she may be providing them the difference between them eating and not eating. Especially for someone with a lower education who is older.... if they need to contribute to the family income there might not be any other alternative than sweatshop work... so Karen might be providing something very valuable to these women... an alternative to making Nikes for 10c/hour.

Kimberly


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## Lauira

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Diaper_Addict_Jen*
I would get tired of all the questions too. Not all moms are nice when they ask, they can be confrontive. That would sure put me on the defensive.

I totally agree!


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## tnrsmom

Just want to toss out there that I do not really think they are making that many. When a friend contacted her about a custom order, she was told 3-5 weeks. I am fairly certain she would put a definate custom order before an Ebay stocking. Just my .02

And Tiffany







Very well said.


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## poisonedapple

Quote:

I don't think many of you realize how long it takes to knit soakers & shorts & pants by hand
Some people also knit faster then others. Teresa at LTK once said in sewing that it just takes her a couple hours to whip up a soaker, that really isnt that much time to be unable to list several especially with more then 1 doing it. And she definetly does relist, its free to do with ebay if the terms apply.

If you dont feel comfortable with it, then skip over it, but shes explained herself enough times. Shes responded before that the money she pays those that make it is more then what those in China usually make, and they are getting quite a profit out of it. I dont know the China economy at all or the rate table of money, its just what shes responded with in the past.


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## JohnnysGirl

I had to wait 25 days for longies.


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## KLK7

ITA with Tiffany. Without any evidence, it is unfair to judge her.

I went to Vietnam in 1998. The cost of living there is unbelievably low. My friend's family was considered upper-middle class and their family of 6 survived quite comfortably on less than the equivalent of $10 per day that the one primary wage earner earner. His mother did not have to work at all because they were considered "well off" and they were also able to buy a second piece of property to build what we would call a summer home. BTW, this was in Ho Chi Minh City (former Saigon), the most prosperous and expensive area to live in Vietnam.

Many people that I met in Vietnam would have been grateful for this kind of work. My friend's SIL was a seamstress and would sell full outfits for the equivalent of around $2. Something super fancy would be around $5 tops.

I am not saying that Vietnam = China, but my point is to give some frame of reference. Just because they are inexpensive does not mean she is ripping off her family and friends.
Buying in the US vs. buying overseas is NOT my point.


----------



## Azadeh

wow! I've been too busy to get on here lately and just saw this... Very very interesting comments.

I was e-mailed by the owner and asked if I want to sell their soakers at my store. I didn't feel comfortable doing it so I turned her down. I can't imagine how much the knitters make after the cost of the soakers and selling them to someone like me at 1/2 what she sells them for at e-bay? If I were to sell her stuff I would get a whole bunch at 1/2 retail... Just doesn't sounds like a small business to me. Which is fine as long as all workers are paid a fair amount. Just not a small business. And definitely not considered WAHM. Hope it's not a sweat shop type thing... Yikes! But it is true that we just do not know. So I am not saying anything bad about them. Just am not interested to sell their stuff...

Not that I know but a lot of people might think machine made is still hand made as long as they don't have huge industrial sized machines in a factory. Like the diapers I make... I call them hand made but I use a sewing machine to sew them... YKWIM? I think it is obvious from the way they look that they are not made with knitting needles by hand.








:

Azadeh

P.S. I can't stand it when people copy without permission. No no no no..


----------



## weetzie

I do not know her working conditions, but I do know that it is NOT ok to copy Karen's (of KSS) cactus design.


----------



## HeatherTremblay

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Teri*
About the copying.... to copy another wahm's art, IMO, is very wrong. It is actually hurtful to the wahm.... they feel invaded. It is stealing, and they feel like they have been stollen from. If a customer emailed me and asked me to do a custom order by copying so and so's diapers, I would say, "NO way!" and be done with it. That sort of stuff just bothers me. Wahms put way too much into what they do to have somebody just rip it off.

Teri











It takes a bit more imagination and work to draft your own designs and patterns, and come up with an original product that's your own, than to copy someone else's. Of course, the temptation to make a bit of extra money for your family comes in, when you are a wahm making very little overall in your cottage industry, and someone says, 'I really need such-and-such just like...'.

But the bottom line is, it's an art, it's craftmanship, and there are certain ethical standards (unwritten, but still in force for those of like-minded hearts and minds) that reputable wahms respect for themselves and, in turn, for others in their craft.

I certainly wouldn't speak against anyone in particular, not knowing what an individual situation might be, but I do believe that, in making your creations your own, you earn the respect of others in your customer and peer community.


----------



## HoosierDiaperinMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *quest4quiet*
I'm always on the lookout for cheap wool, but I've never been able to bring myself to buy from her b/c something just seems...off, for lack of a better word.

ITA!! I've never bought from her b/c I'm convinced these come from a sweat shop.


----------



## poisonedapple

So the cactus was completely copied, looked just like a replica?

If it was just a darn cactus on the butt, she doesnt own the right to be the only one to put cactus on a diaper tush, its not trademarked, copyright, etc. If it were copied completely, then I would think of it as theft, but if it was just a cactus on the tush, from another mama who lives in AZ whats the matter with that? She didnt claim or try to say it was a KSS soaker. But I dont see the orginal anymore to see if it was exact.


----------



## MiaPia

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Morwenna*
While I totally agree that one can be 'inspired' by another's work...inspired is different than blatant copying
Here's the BJM

and here's the KSS one

.

It is easy to see that yes, the cactus from the BJM soaker is a pretty close replica of the one from KSS. I know for a fact that Karen worked hard on the KSS cactus, because we e-mailed back and forth quite a bit with her giving me updated sketches for the cactus until it looked exactly as I wanted. She is one talented mama!









However, I also have to say for the record that I do *not* think that I am the only one entitled to a cactus soaker! I am slightly upset that Karen's (KSS Karen) design was stolen though.


----------



## mehndi mama

It's exact. Very exact.

Anyway, the point of the plagarism is, did the OP *ask* for a cactus just lik the one on the KSS (in which case, the fault would lie partly with her for requesting a copy of a copyrighted design (because all hand-drawn original artwork *is* copyrighted, whether it says so or not), or did she just say "I want a cactus" and BJM-Karen found the KSS picture and said "that would do nicely" & sent it off to be copied without the OP's knowledge?
Either way, it's not okay.
I have a number of WAHM friends who have had their artwork blatantly copied by other WAHM's who did not ask permission, and I can tell you without a doubt that it makes them sad, it makes them MAD, and it makes them want to stop offering custom designs, because of the lack of respect shown by the people who copy.
If you like a design, draw one yourself. Similar is no big deal - that kind of thing is rather flattering. But don't copy line-for-line without permission.


----------



## allformyboys

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spicensnail007*
So the cactus was completely copied, looked just like a replica?

If it was just a darn cactus on the butt, she doesnt own the right to be the only one to put cactus on a diaper tush, its not trademarked, copyright, etc. If it were copied completely, then I would think of it as theft, but if it was just a cactus on the tush, from another mama who lives in AZ whats the matter with that? She didnt claim or try to say it was a KSS soaker. But I dont see the orginal anymore to see if it was exact.

For the record it was nearly exact (as exact as two hand made things can be) the shape was exactly the same, the position of the flowers were exactly the same, it was copied. And it IS copyrighted, it was a hand drawing/design done by Karen of KSS she didn't copy, she came up with the design on her own and made it an orginal, art work as well as the written word is automatically copyrighted to whomever owns the work (in this case Karen of KSS). You don't have to register it for it to be a copyright (not like a patent) if it was just a matter of it being a cactus on the butt no one would have said anything, but there are MANY MANY different ways to make a cactus, she could have made one of 1000's of designs of them with 4 branches, or 2 branches, or a round cactus, not copied the exact design (three with the flowers on top of the branches). That is copyright infringment and it is wrong plain and simple.

A lot of WAHM's get custom requests from other WAHM stuff, a customer will show the WAHM a picture of another soaker and say "I want this" well when this happens the WAHM should say "I can do something similar (same type of design, like a cat or a cactus) but done with my own design, I can not copy a design like that" However I think a lot of WAHM's don't realize that things like this are copyrighted and do it to make customers happy. I know there was a cat on a pair of pants I think that was copied (I had seen the same exact cat on a Freshie's design, and I know Kendell drew it by hand). And then this cactus, I think WAHM's are just getting a little frustrated at being used for their designs and not credited, I can tell ya if I were Karen (KSS) I would be mega upset, this isn't the first time she has been copied. I know it is a form of flattery since she does such a beautiful job, but it is still wrong. I am sure if it were just a cactus that wasn't EXACTLY the same then there wouldn't have been an issue, no one can say they own a theme, I mean if someone wants a cat, do a cat, but don't copy someone elses cat, do you own, or cactus for that matter. See the difference? She doesn't own the cactus idea, that wouldn't be possible, but that exact hand done design she DOES have copyrights to. Clear as mud?


----------



## poisonedapple

Quote:

And it IS copyrighted
I was saying the idea of a cactus on a bum is not copyrighted, I did not say her work was not. I agree that if you design something, write it, draw it, its yours, copyright to you. I did not remeber what the original looked like and said so in my reply.


----------



## DreamingMama

yoink


----------



## HoosierDiaperinMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mehndi mama*
It's exact. Very exact.

Anyway, the point of the plagarism is, did the OP *ask* for a cactus just lik the one on the KSS (in which case, the fault would lie partly with her for requesting a copy of a copyrighted design (because all hand-drawn original artwork *is* copyrighted, whether it says so or not), or did she just say "I want a cactus" and BJM-Karen found the KSS picture and said "that would do nicely" & sent it off to be copied without the OP's knowledge?
Either way, it's not okay.

I could be wrong but I don't think BJM does custom soakers. So, I don't think the fault could lie w/the OP. She had no clue that it was a copied design until it rang a bell with someone! And you're right, either way it's WRONG!!


----------



## scrappinmomof3

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DreamingMama*
yoink

I am sorry but that made me LOL!!!! Kathleen.....


----------



## allformyboys

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spicensnail007*
I was saying the idea of a cactus on a bum is not copyrighted, I did not say her work was not. I agree that if you design something, write it, draw it, its yours, copyright to you. I did not remeber what the original looked like and said so in my reply.

Ahh sorry! Some people don't know that a copyright is automatic. But your totally right the idea of a cactus isn't the issue, it is the exact design.







: sorry!


----------



## JohnnysGirl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HoosierDiaperinMama*
I could be wrong but I don't think BJM does custom soakers. So, I don't think the fault could lie w/the OP. She had no clue that it was a copied design until it rang a bell with someone! And you're right, either way it's WRONG!!


she does do customs... nak


----------



## allformyboys

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HoosierDiaperinMama*
I could be wrong but I don't think BJM does custom soakers. So, I don't think the fault could lie w/the OP. She had no clue that it was a copied design until it rang a bell with someone! And you're right, either way it's WRONG!!

BJM does do customs, it says to e-mail her for a custom in the listing, and the OP said it was a custom before the OP edited it.


----------



## lori810

Chiming in again here-

Re: the work conditions issue - I agree that 1) the soakers are relisted so it's not as many as it seems; 2) there is a fair amount of judgment going on that I think is unwarranted - after all - there ARE other soakers on Ebay listed and selling for even LESS than this (think Tinker's soakers!- and she has had a BUNCH too over the prior months!). I have no reason to believe it is a sweatshop. If its machine knit, it's too bad she isn't up front about it but they are still a nice soaker, and well-worth the money. And I personally don't boycott all non-american made goods. I think its a shame jobs are being outsourced on a larger level but its a complicated issue and too much to really go into here.

Re: the copyright issues - I agree that the cacti are identical, and that is wrong. I feel bad for Karen of KSS for having for hard earned work copied.


----------



## poisonedapple

Instead of bickering back and forth for 5 pages, I think you should ask yourselves, How can this issue get resolved? What do you propose to make this better?

I think it should just be dropped, Morgan just wanted to show off her custom soaker, she didnt want this to go into accusations that the creator owns a sweatshop or that the design was stolen. She was just a mama who wanted to say "HEY LOOK! I got a custom soaker, isnt it cute!" like everyone else does here.

Unless you have a solution to this, I think it should be dropped.

No hard feelings Marnie.


----------



## lori810

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spicensnail007*
Instead of bickering back and forth for 5 pages, I think you should ask yourselves, How can this issue get resolved? What do you propose to make this better?

I think it should just be dropped, Morgan just wanted to show off her custom soaker, she didnt want this to go into accusations that the creator owns a sweatshop or that the design was stolen. She was just a mama who wanted to say "HEY LOOK! I got a custom soaker, isnt it cute!" like everyone else does here.

Unless you have a solution to this, I think it should be dropped.

No hard feelings Marnie.









Maybe it's just me, but I didn't see it as bickering. I saw it as a thoughtful discussion and it has certainly enlightened me to read everyone's POV.


----------



## scrappinmomof3

This is a situation where everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I have mine, Stella has hers, Marnie has hers, Morwenna has hers, etc.

Regarding the working conditions, there is no way to prove anything. All we can do as consumers is ask the questions, and if we feel the owner has answered them to our satisfaction, then so be it. For me, I won't purchase any soakers from them. The questions have not been answered to my satisfaction, so I will continue to look at the WAHMs I know and if I should happen to be so lucky to land one of their items, all the better. I will be at that Kiwi Pie stocking tomorrow morning. I will continue to keep an eye out for when KSS Karen starts using that new yummy wool. I will watch for when Morwenna stocks next. I will watch for Marnie and Dana, and all the other soaker makin' mamas for their wares. That is my choosing.

Regarding the design situation, if it was copied, that is a violation. Pure and simple. Of course, the person hurt in all of this is Karen/KSS, and she is the only person who can protect her rights as the owner of that design.

This has been a good discussion.... very interesting....

ETA.... I don't view this as bickering at all. Maybe that is because I have a law degree and I view this as constructive discussion. I have heard bickering, and I didn't think this fell in that category. Consider it a "consumer report ... from a lot of consumers."


----------



## Azadeh

I think it is very good that this is being discussed. I think that it's good that the facts are being stated. If it was dropped then it would mean that it's no big deal to copy and that we don't care where these soakers are coming from. Just my opinion. This is just a discussion. It's ok.

Azadeh

--edited spelling.


----------



## beachmama

I agree with Azadeh. If it is never discussed there are two issues that may go on to be ignored..

1) the mass production of these soakers that is questionable
2) WAHM art being copied


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## PatchyMama

if copying is the issue, i wonder where everyone draws the line? I personally have issues with copying anything thats someone elses work... but all the time we see WAHM items sold with home made appliques of blues clues, elmo, dora, etc etc.... all of which are also copyrighted protected designs. No one ever screams foul play at those? All the time we see diaper patterns that are copied from other WAHMs or even from other WAHMs copyrighted printed patterns... yet when those are brought up you always here "only so many ways to make a diaper"

Obviously everyone has their own rules for whats ok and whats not.... but where do you draw the line ? Just curious since everyone is having a peaceful discussion for the morning


----------



## allformyboys

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spicensnail007*
Instead of bickering back and forth for 5 pages, I think you should ask yourselves, How can this issue get resolved? What do you propose to make this better?

I think it should just be dropped, Morgan just wanted to show off her custom soaker, she didnt want this to go into accusations that the creator owns a sweatshop or that the design was stolen. She was just a mama who wanted to say "HEY LOOK! I got a custom soaker, isnt it cute!" like everyone else does here.

Unless you have a solution to this, I think it should be dropped.

No hard feelings Marnie.









I didn't mean to bicker, just wanted to speak up for what I thought was being misunderstood. Now as for the working conditions, and the honesty of the seller, I haven't commented on that, I don't know her, I don't know anything about it, and yes if it were me I would be mortified by this thread and all the accusations, it isn't fair since none of us 'knows' anything.

I think the point on the copying and the point of the whole copyright issue and design rights really is a good topic one that will be benificial if the WAHM's who DON'T know that it is wrong, and there are a lot of them out there that wouldn't really even think anything of it yk? I don't think anyone intentionally goes out to copy, or means to make other WAHM's upset or feel bad, it could be they very well don't know that this isn't a good thing to do yk? So having it here is kinda a good thing, letting wahm's who might do this (are doing it or have done it) know that it is wrong, the WAHM's infringed on DO notice and that they should stop (or not do it, or simply say "Sorry" to the WAHM).

So as an educational point I think it is a good one, a lot of people don't get the copyright issues and where the line is drawn, for the things that are licensed (like elmo, blue and so on) they aren't to be copied either yet they are a lot, I have done both Blue (the paw print) and Elmo, but neither were for sale, Elmo was for Joe only, and blue was for a friend. I don't know if that is really riding the line, yes probably is....anyway I think information is a good thing, so far we have all stayed civil and nice right?









I do feel bad for the OP though, no one is blaming her, or even pointing fingers at her, the soaker shorts are very cute, and I am sorry this topic has taken over her thread.


----------



## BowNessMonster

Max's Mami - FWIW, I never meant







to _you_, I never assumed YOU asked for the KSS cactus design to be copied.
It was a general















ks


----------



## cj'smommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2kyla*
if copying is the issue, i wonder where everyone draws the line? I personally have issues with coyping anything thats someone elses work... but all the time we see WAHM items sold with home made appliques of blues clues, elmo, dora, etc etc.... all of which are also copyrighted protected designs. No one ever screams foul play at those? All the time we see diaper patterns that are copied from other WAHMs or even from other WAHMs copyrighted printed patterns... yet when those are brought up you always here "only so many ways to make a diaper"

Obviously everyone has their own rules for whats ok and whats not.... but where do you draw the line ? Just curious since everyone is having a peaceful discussion for the morning

















I'm curious too. I've seen a lot of what I consider copying and wondered the same thing.


----------



## cj'smommy

Maybe it is as simple as them really not knowing they did anything wrong.







That happens to me all the time!


----------



## JennInSeattle

I've finally read all the posts on this thread! Man! lol That took all morning and every time I thought I was done I'd push refresh and find a whole new page!







:LOL

Some really good things were said and brought out. I don't have much to add but after reading all of this I wanted to add more than the







emoticon!









I do feel bad for the OP, I don't know if she asked for Karen's design or not but even if she did I doubt she thought for a second about copyright issues. I can imagine myself asking for something like Karen's mommy elephant leading the baby elephant design. I doubt she would have thought that BJM-Karen could even do an exact replica so I don't fault her for that by any means. Granted I'm sure she and everyone else here will think twice when asking for a custom applique!







I know I will!

And as for BJM-Karen I bet she didn't think much of doing a custom like the one shown. She was probably just trying to make her customer happy and didn't expect all of this "press". I doubt she'd do it again after all of this (which is a good thing, she shouldn't do it again in my oppinion because it was an inspired design). But I also don't fault Karen-BJM for that either. Though I can understand if Karen-KSS was upset by this.

And regarding BJM soakers in general, I haven't bought one because I heard the yarn is thin (daytime weight only) and prone to getting pilly. That said if I saw one I couldn't live without (and one day I may) I'll probably get it. I've heard enough over the last few months to feel relatively comfortable buying a soaker from BJM. I have enough wool and probably won't but I do look at the BJM soakers on ebay. I do try to support WAHM's I know or are an active part of the diapering community here first though, simply because I know and like these women and appreciate their work. I often imagine the WAHM making the soaker Nathan is wearing and it's endearing to me. But that's a personal preference.

As to resolution in general.. what I'd like to see is more knitting WAHM's doing these awesome appliques! I'm sure it's difficult and time consuming but they are really neat to see and the reason I stay interested in BJM.


----------



## Azadeh

Blues Clues and stuff like that come from huge companies. Copying those characters doesn't do much harm. When a wahm copies a design without permission then there is a bigger problem. WAHM stuff come from WAHMs and copying even one may harm that WAHM's business.

Having said that, I still wouldn't copy Blues Clues and Elmo stuff. I personally don't feel comfortable with it even if they belong to bigger businesses.

But there obviously IS a huge difference between copying a WAHM's hand drawn design and copying Elmo.

If I or my kids were into those characters then I would buy WAHM stuff with them on it and not feel so bad. (I don't like TV or Disney characters...) However, If I knew a design was copied from another WAHM's design or idea, then I wouldn't even think about buying it. That's just me.

Azadeh


----------



## PatchyMama

Quote:

Blues Clues and stuff like that come from huge companies. Copying those characters doesn't do much harm.
But its still illegal....which still puts the integrity of the person doing the copy into question, which is what I thought the problem with copying is based on this thread.


----------



## amicrazyyet

unfortunately Jen, more and more WAHMs drop their businesses because of the time and headache involved in those custom designs and beautiful appliques. They aren't really making a profit off the soakers, but yet when you have someone coming in claiming "handknit" and willing to copy for CHEAP, then more and more will give up on it and spend that valuable time and energy on their own children instead of trying to run a business.

What is going to happen when the talent pool to copy from dries up?


----------



## ustasmom

It isn't as though this was the first time.

Wonderful Woolies sold a bee soaker on eBay a couple of months ago.

And then a few weeks later, BJM has them.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ayphotohosting


----------



## cj'smommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ustasmom*
It isn't as though this was the first time.

Wonderful Woolies sold a bee soaker on eBay a couple of months ago.

And then a few weeks later, BJM has them.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ayphotohosting

True, but BJM aren't the only ones who now have a similar bee design, I've seen them elsewhere too.


----------



## Mrs. Edwards

I don't know but maybe i'm the only one that doesn't think they EXACTLY the same. But, I wonder how many different ways can you draw a dang catcus with flowers on them?

I don't own a KSS or BJM, actually the only wahm soaker I have now just came in the mail today and is from rumpknits and I paid $18 for it. But, I also am the one that paid for this KSS in question because it was a gift to Mia and her daughter Isabella from Me and Genevieve. Wow, if there's a lawsuit...I'd like to be in on it. :LOL


----------



## PatchyMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ustasmom*
It isn't as though this was the first time.

Wonderful Woolies sold a bee soaker on eBay a couple of months ago.

And then a few weeks later, BJM has them.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ayphotohosting

bridgets soakers also has a bee soaker that has been up on her site for months i believe.. http://woollensoakers.easystorecreat...aby%20blue.jpg








so i dont know if its possible to say who is copying who there.. they all look like bees flying around to me, ROFL.


----------



## the5dunlaps

Yikers!


----------



## Book Addict Jen

It is a different bee design. Not exactly the same. So no one can do bees flying around now? I have seen quite a number bee designs at different WAHMs.


----------



## ustasmom

But the point is that they seem to come up with their "inspirations" off of the ideas of others.


----------



## Book Addict Jen

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ustasmom*
But the point is that they seem to come up with their "inspirations" off of the ideas of others.

What is wrong with that? It isn't a direct copy. They still designed the bee pattern themselves. Looking at all the patterns out there that means no one can do bees, cactus, giraffe, lady bugs, frogs, turtles etc... That is being to strict. An idea is OK, direct copy not good.


----------



## cj'smommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Diaper_Addict_Jen*
An idea is OK, direct copy not good.









- that's what I was trying to say earlier.

Many out there have the same ideas, it's not just BJM that is coming up with them at the same time or after others.


----------



## 2much2luv

So how much insperation is too much. For example...the only soakers i have seen with things on the end of the drawstring are righteous baby but that is such a cute idea. Would it be stealing to get a soaker done with something from the drawstrings? Seriously, I have been thinking about it and couldn't decide if that was wrong or not.


----------



## MamaTT

Wow so many judgemental mamas here. Sad.

You know, what irks me the most is that these are all very, very stereotypical images that we are all complaining about being "copied". You know, when I read the OP before I even clicked on the link to the pic, when I read "Cactus" I pictured pretty much EXACTLY what the BJM soaker looked like. Honestly, if you said cactus with flowers, that is what I would draw! And I know for a fact that I never saw the KSS one before. I don't torture myself looking at her site. :LOL

Same thing with the bees. And hasn't anyone ever heard of fads? HELLO? Just cause gymboree and PRR and Robeez have been doing monkeys in the last season or two, doesn't mean that it constitutes plaigerism. Or the HUGE hawaiian print craze. I see it as just being trendy.

I was trained as a visual artist, and here is my art snob take.







I would hazard that none of those designs were made by sitting down in front of an actual cactus or bee or what have you, and using it as a model from life. Therefore they were all inspired to a degree by other people's work--a synthesis of images catalogued over a lifetime by the brain.

If you want something truly original, then fly your WAHM to AZ to sit in the desert sipping margaritas and sketching cacti. Seriously, we should all know by now that we "all stand on the shoulders of giants" so to speak.


----------



## PatchyMama

Quote:

If you want something truly original, then fly your WAHM to AZ to sit in the desert sipping margaritas and sketching cacti.








: :LOL Now thats the kind of custom job I want


----------



## lori810

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cj'smommy*







- that's what I was trying to say earlier.

Many out there have the same ideas, it's not just BJM that is coming up with them at the same time or after others.

Ditto.

I wonder about other diapers too - not just appliqued soakers. But for example, pocket diapers. I started CD'ing after pocket diapers were "invented" (not sure when that was) but I seem to remember reading somewhere at sometime about some hubbub about the fact that Teresen of MOE enforcing her patent on the pocket diaper, and asking other pocket diaper makers to get licensed (or something like that). Isn;t there a list on www.pocketdiaper.com with all the WAHM's that went through MOE to get approved? What about Happy Heiny's and Wonderoos? Did they not take the same concept that she invented, change it a bit and call it their own? Is there an objection to those diapers too? (I am not being sarcastic, I am really wondering if that is true).


----------



## JohnnysGirl

I own the Purr pants from WW, and the stick kitty applique was inspired by an image I admired in Kendall's gallery. It was absolutely not Susan's fault that I asked her to do something similar to Kendall's kitty, it was all my fault.







I stupidly never thought for a second about her minding that I was getting a kitty like that done on a custom pair of pants for my babe to wear over here in Finland. I have, since reading this thread, actually smacked myself in the forehead for being such a dope and with such dreaded realization that I should not have asked a WAHM to do something like another WAHM's design, and feel SO BAD about it.







: In fact, I plan to leave this bag on my head maybe permanently. I have apologized to Kendall. And I will never be so dumb again.

I hope no one thinks that Susan was in the wrong at ALL--she is sooooo awesome and sweet and never would in a million years step on anyone's toes and has soooo much talent and creativity that she has demonstrated in such a short time that I feel safe that no one will think bad of her from this issue....


----------



## Azadeh

"I don't torture myself looking at her site"

What happens when you look at her site that tortures you? Just curious... Cause I love her site and admire her talents greatly.

Azadeh


----------



## kimberlylibby

: Tiffany you're preggers! You better leave the margaritas for someone like ME. Oh wait, darn, I preggers too. BUT I'm due before you!!!


----------



## kimberlylibby

Azadeh: I think she meant she can't afford it... so why torture yourself by looking at what you can't have?


----------



## PatchyMama

Quote:

What about Happy Heiny's and Wonderoos? Did they not take the same concept that she invented, change it a bit and call it their own?








- Wonderoos are licensed by FuzziBunz because they do realize they took their idea for the pocket from them.







I think it actually says in their banner that they are authorized by FB or something like that. There logo on the site (http://www.wonderoos.com/ ) also has the FB patent number under it


----------



## lori810

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaTT*
Wow so many judgemental mamas here. Sad.


It seems to me that there are many who are, in some ways, looking for ways and reasons to critisize BJM. While there are some valid concerns IMO, on the other hand, it seems like there is alot being critisized that goes beyond that. Every time BJM is discussed here, so many people have so many negative things to say. I wonder if part of it is that while her soakers are pretty, she doesn't fit the typical hyena mold - and her soakers are easy to obtain, so of course, they must be bad in some way. You know, how you have to stalk a WAHM for diapers, and then you can't unload them on the TP - people like the thrill of the hunt, and BJM doesn't offer that, and isn't a part of the CD community.


----------



## PatchyMama

Quote:

Tiffany you're preggers! You better leave the margaritas for someone like ME. Oh wait, darn, I preggers too. BUT I'm due before you!!!
:LOL I guess I would settle for some virgin strawberry daquiris instead


----------



## scrappinmomof3

NM.... saw that this was a patent question (RE the pocket diaper discussion)... my bad. Removing my response







:


----------



## lori810

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2kyla*







- Wonderoos are licensed by FuzziBunz because they do realize they took their idea for the pocket from them.







I think it actually says in their banner that they are authorized by FB or something like that. There logo on the site (http://www.wonderoos.com/ ) also has the FB patent number under it









Oops, sorry! But I don't think HH are, are they?


----------



## Azadeh

"I think she meant she can't afford it... so why torture yourself by looking at what you can't have?"

LMBO LOL LOL I feel too silly right now for taking that the wrong way...














:









Ok. Whew.... LOL That was just too funny.


----------



## MamaTT

Azedah, I can't afford it. I admire her too. Sitting around coveting the unattainable just makes me more materialistic than is good for me, so I try not to do it.


----------



## amicrazyyet

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lori810*
It seems to me that there are many who are, in some ways, looking for ways and reasons to critisize BJM. While there are some valid concerns IMO, on the other hand, it seems like there is alot being critisized that goes beyond that. Every time BJM is discussed here, so many people have so many negative things to say. I wonder if part of it is that while her soakers are pretty, she doesn't fit the typical hyena mold - and her soakers are easy to obtain, so of course, they must be bad in some way. You know, how you have to stalk a WAHM for diapers, and then you can't unload them on the TP - people like the thrill of the hunt, and BJM doesn't offer that, and isn't a part of the CD community.

I view it more as for a group of women that profess to care about working conditions this seems like a valid concern. If this group cares enough to have posts such as "would you buy from a mom that wasn't AP" then I personally think it would matter whether things were really what they said they were. Not jealousy, not scared of a newcomer etc. But simply things don't seem 100% and have several have honest concerns. If others want to be like ostriches and stick their heads in the sand then that is their perogative. I don't mind honest questions about claims from a maker, IMO are worth it.


----------



## Lisadeanne

Man, all I can say is WOW!! I am sure I will get flamed but here goes. I feel sorry for the OP. I think she probably just wanted to share her excitement of a cute soaker with us. I think there have been many valid points made here. I agree that it is not ok to steal someones origional design. However I seem to be seeing a lot of finger poining at wahm's that do bee designs etc. There are only so many things you can put on the back of a soaker. There are fads as a pp pointed out. There were several 4th of july soakers out recently. Are those mamas who designed those ripping each other off> I dont think so.

I am a fairly new knitter and to be honest I sometimes feel darn scared to sell my stuff because I am afraid it will be ripped to shreds in posts like these. This forum goes in spurts. Someone finds a new wahm and everyone rushes to try her out and then slowly she gets picked apart and threads like this happen. I really like coming here, but I have to be honest that threads like this really turn me off.

I guess I should add a little side note that NO I dont support sweatshops and I dont support or approve of other hard working wahms ideas being stolen. I just hate seeing people ripped to shreds so easily. Words hurt ladies. Ok had to get that out. I am sure I will regret this later.


----------



## lori810

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amicrazyyet*
I view it more as for a group of women that profess to care about working conditions this seems like a valid concern. If this group cares enough to have posts such as "would you buy from a mom that wasn't AP" then I personally think it would matter whether things were really what they said they were. Not jealousy, not scared of a newcomer etc. But simply things don't seem 100% and have several have honest concerns. If others want to be like ostriches and stick their heads in the sand then that is their perogative. I don't mind honest questions about claims from a maker, IMO are worth it.

As i said i think there are _some_ valid concerns, but i think it goes beyond that. There have been many posts ridiculing BJM soakers - having nothing to do w/ working conditions.


----------



## chloesmom

Quote:

There were several 4th of july soakers out recently. Are those mamas who designed those ripping each other off> I dont think so.
Naw they're ripping off Betsy Ross!







:







:







:

Just kidding. I have to crack jokes because I have nothing meaningful to contribute to this conversation.







:


----------



## amicrazyyet

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lori810*
As i said i think there are _some_ valid concerns, but i think it goes beyond that. There have been many posts ridiculing BJM soakers - having nothing to do w/ working conditions.

Thats not cool. If she is in fact totally on the up and up and doesn't have plagarism issues then I don't see anything wrong with her product.


----------



## 2much2luv

Azadeh, I took it that way too at first.







I was like, WTFreak do we have to insult KSS Karen for?!?!?! :LOL


----------



## the5dunlaps

to Maxi's Mami


----------



## mehndi mama

Also, I'd like to add that some of the concerns that I expressed about BJM HAVE been rectified in the course of this discussion - things about product volume, and the number of workers, and the value of the wage they are getting for their work. All in all, this has been a pretty darn productive discussion.

As for design copying, there is a great deal of check-and-balance in the WAHM community. Many tings are similar, but if you outright copy something, you're gonna get called out on it. Increasingly, WAHM's are beginning to get together a bit more, getting to know each other, and are asking permission (kind of a "do you mind if I" knid of thing) to use certain design elements inspired by others. Because there *are* so mane awesome designs and ideas out there, asking permission is a good thing. Often, the WAHM will say sure, go ahead, so long as it isn't a copy! Sometimes she'll say "I'd rather you didn't, as I worked long & hard on that idea." The point is in the asking.

As for patent issues, YES, some folks do have probelms with pocket diapers that are ignoring or fighting the fuzzibunz patent. Others are going the opposite direction and boycotting the patent-holder and their licensees. It's a big nasty issue, and probably should be discussed elsewhere, because that discussion can get very long, too.


----------



## allformyboys

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chloesmom*
Naw they're ripping off Betsy Ross!







:







:







:

Just kidding. I have to crack jokes because I have nothing meaningful to contribute to this conversation.







:

Dear Betsy Ross, I sincerely apologize for ripping off your flag design, please forgive me, but it was SO darn cute!









And as for the rest, *Butterflymom* don't beat yourself up for it it was a very cute drawing, and that is flattering that you liked it so much to want one, you didn't know/think about it, which is the good point of this thread, now you do!







and kitty's are cute! I think it is a good point that was brought up and more people will now see that saying "I want a kitty on my pants, I saw these ____" is fine but saying "I want this exact kitty" isn't (unless of course your buying it from the orginal WAHM) And more WAHM's will be able to let their customers know that they can't copy exactly, but a kitty is fine.


----------



## HeatherTremblay

I think it's www.pocketdiapers.com, actually (but I didn't see a list there).


----------



## MissSugarKane

I haven't finished reading the last few pages but I'll I can say is I am so sick of all this diaper drama.It's always something.And since I can't seem to stay away from the diapering community I am just counting the days until my son is out of diapers.

Honestly I can see both sides.I have a custom soaker slot coming up somewhere and I was thinking about copying from other soakers I have seen.I never thought of it as stealing







So part me is like so what but then of course if it was my design stolen I would be mad.So like I said I can see both ways.

What bothers me is all the judgements and the rude comments about the OP.All she was trying to do was show off her soaker and now must feel like crap.She is part of our community and I am sad that her thread has turned into this.

Honestly I don't think it is the end of the world.KSS soakers will still always sell for very high prices and I don't think the cactus will be the downfall of her business.

I just wish every little thing did not get blown into a huge deal.Diaper drama sucks and makes me realize how badly I need a life to even be sitting here reading it.


----------



## MissSugarKane

"Blues Clues and stuff like that come from huge companies. Copying those characters doesn't do much harm."

"But its still illegal....which still puts the integrity of the person doing the copy into question, which is what I thought the problem with copying is based on this thread"

Wow I have done some hand painted Blue's Clues items , guess I have no integrity.









Honestly all these judgements are so out of hand.No one knows anyones true character by one or two things they sell.


----------



## mehndi mama

Technically, it's also illegal to sell items made from licensed character fabrics, unless you have permission from the license-holder.

I walk a fine line with this issue myself. I often have shirts with logos & characters on them that are perfectly positioned for a diaper cut, so they're used as the outside of the diaper. My rationalization is that #1 The license-holding company has already been paid for the item, since someone bought the shirt for its' image, and #2 I don't charge any extra for diapers with logos/characters on them. But I still don't really know if it's technically "right", yk?


----------



## MyLittleWonders

Stell, I have the same delimna ... there are so many cute fabrics out there, but so far I make sure they are not marked as "for private in-home use only ... not for commercial use." But when it's a recycled item (for instance a shirt like you have) ... I don't know where that line is drawn.


----------



## Artisan

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissSugarKane*
"Blues Clues and stuff like that come from huge companies. Copying those characters doesn't do much harm."

"But its still illegal....which still puts the integrity of the person doing the copy into question, which is what I thought the problem with copying is based on this thread"

Wow I have done some hand painted Blue's Clues items , guess I have no integrity.









Honestly all these judgements are so out of hand.No one knows anyones true character by one or two things they sell.

It's not really a judgment; it's the law. No one was ridiculing you personally, but it IS illegal to copy someone else's design exactly.


----------



## Artisan

I have never seen one of these soakers up close, and have never dealt with this seller, so I can't comment on them in that respect (although I have seen them on ebay many times).

I am an experienced knitter, and they do not look handmade to me. I would like to see one in person, because I feel confident that I could tell you for sure whether they are handmade or knit by machine. If they're done by machine, I resent the misrepresentation.


----------



## HeatherTremblay

This has got me thinking about licensed fabrics/embroidery/graphic/applique designs - just sharing a couple of links about this:

http://www.embroideryprotection.org/mfgr.html

http://www.sew-whats-new.com/kim/copyrights.shtml


----------



## MissSugarKane

Quote:


Originally Posted by *reader*
It's not really a judgment; it's the law. No one was ridiculing you personally, but it IS illegal to copy someone else's design exactly.


Well I thought because I painted them myself it was okay.I didn't use any licensed fabric or anything.I just thought it would be cool to offer something WAHM made with that character for those that didn't like shopping at Wal-mart and such.Whatever I'll go take them down right now.And I am sure lots of other WAHMs are now considering taking down items they made.This is all so stupid.ANd I am sick of all this nit picking at people.I so don't feel this is a loving community anymore.

For what it's worth I have lots of integrity as I am sure the BJMP and other women have.Maybe we are not all legal experts.But it's so nice of everyone to call everybody out publicly instead of just pming or emailing the person about it.


----------



## Lisadeanne

I agree with Jamie. This community is taking a nosedive big time. I for sure will think twice about what I share here.


----------



## PatchyMama

Jamie, you shouldnt take things so personally. My statement was that previously on this thread other people were calling the women who makes the BJ marketplace soakers as being in the wrong, essentially questioning her integrity since she stole a design. I said what I did because the poster before me made it seem like the problem she had with people copying other people was that it could harm business... which seemed like a contraditction to previous posts. I was just trying to clarify/understand exactly what all the previous posters concerns were with copying. It was a general discussion about why copying is wrong, having absolutely nothing to do with any specific person and you shouldnt take it as such. Its not a black and white issue.

I was simply using licenced characters(without any regards as to which ones, just what is seen most often) as an example because those are also someone else copyrighted works.... and its illegal to duplicate them in any manor without permission from the owner (as stated previously in the thread about KSS artwork).


----------



## HoosierDiaperinMama

This thread is still open?


----------



## Book Addict Jen

I haven't seen a mod in a couple days.


----------



## Cutie Patootie

I can't believe this thread hasn't been shut down...it should be.















to Max's...the soaker is adorable and will look even more adorable on your cutie!

You know the thing that I really hate about these forums is that it is so easy to just say whatever you think and feel without really knowing the damage that it does to others. I am really saddened by some of the posts here, and the judging that has been going on. Noone knows BJM-Karen personally, nor does anyone know how her business really works. But for crying out loud, what ever happened to thinking the best of others. Instead we are here playing guessing games about other peoples lives. It stinks! Nobody really knows if the art was copied. Lots of mamas here talk like it was some malicious act...like Karen from BJM sat and thought up how she could hurt Karen of KSS. Karen-KSS is an incredible artist and so incredibly talented, we all know that. We know nothing of this other woman and have no right to play guessing games with her business. Find out the facts, or give it a rest.









ETA: I know it is hurtful to steal someone elses art that they worked so hard on, and I know copyrighting is illegal and wrong, but so are a lot of other things. I trust the hearts of most of the mamas here, and I do not question their integrity because they put a paw print or anything else on the rear of a custom soaker or a hand-dyed outfit.









Another ETA: :LOL "I can't believe this thread hasn't been shut down...it should be.







" This comment and







was for the yucky guessing and judging BJM and other WAHMs, not for the sweet and wonderful mods.


----------



## twirlgirl

you know I'm getting pretty darn nervous here when it comes to embellishing soakers.
I generally do not browse other soaker WAHM sites (hence I had no idea what the big deal was over the cactii issue) I've done all of two embellishments thus far, but what if they come close to anothers? I stand by them being original ideas, but with so many out there already it makes me wonder (like the bee discussion...how many different ways can you embroider a flying bee?)

I agree with everyone copying is copying and *wrong* no matter if its Disney or KSS (or insert random WAHM)


----------



## fluffernutter

I know I'm late, but I'd like to add my $.02

2 ladies could easily produce 70 soakers a month. All they'd have to do is knit 2 each per day for 30 days and they'd have 120 soakers. Since it sounds like they're working away from home, it'd be pretty easy to do. It also sounds like there are more 2 people knitting, which would make it a breeze to knit enough soakers for ebay+ customs+ wholesale. So unless my math is way off...I don't see how that's even an issue.

As for the issue of copying...there really aren't too many ways to draw a flowering cacti. It'd be pretty difficult for them _not_ to look similar. Same goes with bees, and lots of other things. Although the KSS cacti is gorgeous, I'm sorry to say, the design of the cacti itself is not unique.


----------



## JennInSeattle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Diaper_Addict_Jen*
I haven't seen a mod in a couple days.

As for shutting this thread down I haven't seen anything that violates our guidelines and up until now it's actually been a productive and respectful conversation from my view. I'm taking this to my head for review but I'm going to keep this thread open in the meantime due to a number of people who've pm'd me to let me know that they don't see any violations either. Let's keep it respectful so the issue of copyright enfringment and other thoughts on soaker/diaper making can be discussed productively.









And as for not seeing a mod in a couple of days, who am I? I posted on this thread not more than a few hours ago and post/move things every day. It takes a lot of time and work to make sure that people are following the guidelines so this community can flow openly. It's more than one person can do. If you see something that needs to be brought to a mod's attention (i.e. me) then let us know.

This thread has been re-opened for the time being.


----------



## PatchyMama

((( Jenn )))

Thanks Jenn







I agree I think everyone has done their best to be polite and respectful... nothing wrong with a good peaceful discussion. Yes, it probably should have originally been started in another thread... but it cant change that now.

ETA : maybe someone should send Jenn that trip to Arizona to draw cactii in the desert drinking margaritas ?


----------



## JennInSeattle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2kyla*
ETA : maybe someone should send Jenn that trip to Arizona to draw cactii in the desert drinking margaritas ?









:LOL Oooo.. margaritas! Well I suppose I'm blessed enough with moving to Hawaii next month and I got fairied some chocolate yesterday (Angelica!!) which is the closest to margaritas you can get, right? I'll draw some palm trees for you!


----------



## mehndi mama

Thanks, Jenn - you're doing a great job!

I do think we're doing very well with this discussion - a lot of these issues need to be hashed out in public, anyway - this is a high-traffic forum, so the big issues will get talked about more. This particular set has a lot of gray areas, hence the huge discussion.

I would like to point out that just about ALL of the speculation about BJM has been properly refuted and/or substantiated by mamas who have been in contact with the seller.

So far, the facts are:
She buys her soakers from her 2 sisters, and other women who work with them.
They are hand-knit
The women who make them are paid a fair wage according to their local economy
Many of the items on e-bay have been re-listed at some point
If one woman can knit 1-2 soakers per day, that would account for the amazing product volume.

(eta: I have officially eaten my words! But I still think makers should be paid more







)

The copying issue hasn't been resolved one way or the other, and probably won't. The good thing is that the word is out - don't ask someone to copy another person's artwork, or they could get mad!

I also would like to say something about the whole copying/inspiration thing. I have a soaker knitting pattern that is pretty distinctive, and I have fairly strict use rules for it. I have, however, seen soakers for sale elsewhere that look like mine, but their makers are not my licensees. But when I wrote to them to find out where they got their pattern, they told me that they developed it themselves by trial & error, after looking at some other soakers. So even though they look exactly like mine, they're NOT copies, because they never saw my pattern. It was their own creative efforts that got them to the same place I ended up.

Anyway, it never hurts to ask.


----------



## norcalmommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ReesesMomma*
As for the issue of copying...there really aren't too many ways to draw a flowering cacti. It'd be pretty difficult for them _not_ to look similar. Same goes with bees, and lots of other things. Although the KSS cacti is gorgeous, I'm sorry to say, the design of the cacti itself is not unique.

I was also thinking about this. Although I've never been to China, I'm pretty sure cacti don't grow there. The knitter could easily find the KSS on the web and go from there. And I agree with the pp above- this design is not a unique one. It's on the AZ license plate and many other products (like italian charm bracelets, as Morgan said earlier).


----------



## MissSugarKane

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JennInSeattle*
And as for not seeing a mod in a couple of days, who am I?

Jenn , you're a mod? When (and how) did that happen







: :LOL
jk I see you around all the time so don't know what that no mod in days comment meant.

But anyway I still think this thread sucks and several people have had their feelings hurt.And I don't understand why having to be right about legal issues is worth hurting people in our community.


----------



## scrappinmomof3

Quote:

So far, the facts are:
She buys her soakers from her 2 sisters, and other women who work with them.
They are hand-knit
The women who make them are paid a fair wage according to their local economy
Many of the items on e-bay have been re-listed at some point
If one woman can knit 1-2 soakers per day, that would account for the amazing product volume.

(eta: I have officially eaten my words! But I still think makers should be paid more )
I would like to go on the record as saying I appreciate all points of view that have been stated, and being the person who went into Ebay and counted, and later told that items were re-listed, AND that it was more than her two sisters (that other women were involved), I would like to hang my head in humble shame for making assumptions.

Ok... now I HAVE to go work at my IRL (which is just right here on the computer but I am sure that my employer would LOVE to know I was here discussing all of this.... no one tell LexisNexis!







)


----------



## Trishas Tribe

I think that we should just leave well enough alone.

I know that we all enjoy pretty decorations on our diapers and soakers. Did you ever stop to wonder if any of the embroidery work we all seek after is "technically" allowed? Probably not!! I own an embroidery machine and the designs on my design cards are copyrighted by owner. I bought them to use for personal use.

Unless every WAHM is designing her own embroidery stuff, it probably isn't "legal".

Did you also know that it isn't "legal" for a business to wash fabrics for resale in a home washing machine where it will be exposed to an "unclean" environment? There was a whole thread about this on another board...awhile ago...Amity's...if anyone cares. This alone would put every WAHM out of commission.

We could "nit pick" every darn thing if we wanted to. I don't want to!!

We are only responsible for our own decisions.

Does this make any sense? I am getting sick...bear with me


----------



## PatchyMama

Just a question (since i dont knit







) .... how long would it take an experienced knitting to knit 1 soaker if thats all they did all day(no kids or other household stuff to distract them) ? I agree that all of the soaker prices out there are low for the time involved, i just dont know that I know exactly how much time it is.. kwim? TIA


----------



## kimberlylibby

IF I had no other things to deal with, I could knit one in 5 hours, plus an hour for the embellishments.... so 6 hours. I'm *not* an experienced knitter, but then mine aren't knit as tightly as BJM. So I'm assuming their experience makes up for my loose stitches









Kimberly


----------



## PatchyMama

Quote:

I know that we all enjoy pretty decorations on our diapers and soakers. Did you ever stop to wonder if any of the embroidery work we all seek after is "technically" allowed? Probably not!! I own an embroidery machine and the designs on my design cards are copyrighted by owner. I bought them to use for personal use.

Unless every WAHM is designing her own embroidery stuff, it probably isn't "legal"
Thats usually only true for copyrighted cards you buy from major labels like Amazing Designs, etc. I think the Disney cards are also like that... but most of the sources online to get embroidery designs are for business or personal use. If you arent allowed to use them on items for sale its usually a disclaimer written somewhere in an obvious spot because thats really uncommon at online embroidery design stores







HTH!


----------



## Trishas Tribe

Thanks for the info Tiffany!! I haven't downloaded anything...only purchased design cards that say the images are copyrighted.


----------



## PatchyMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trishas Tribe*
Thanks for the info Tiffany!! I haven't downloaded anything...only purchased design cards that say the images are copyrighted.









np







I actually dont own any cards cause i download all of my stuff :LOL


----------



## MissSugarKane

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2kyla*
Jamie, you shouldnt take things so personally











I was speaking for myself as well as other wahms who now are questioning their products.


----------



## PatchyMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissSugarKane*









I was speaking for myself as well as other wahms who now are questioning their products.

There is no reason to roll your eyes, my response was because you seemed to think I was saying YOU had no integrity, which was false. Obviously some WAHMs didnt know that reproducing copyrighted images is illegal... tho that wasnt the point of this thread, it came up in discussion and now more peole know. Seems to me that its a good thing.


----------



## MissSugarKane

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2kyla*
There is no reason to roll your eyes, my response was because you seemed to think I was saying YOU had no integrity, which was false. Obviously some WAHMs didnt know that reproducing copyrighted images is illegal... tho that wasnt the point of this thread, it came up in discussion and now more peole know. Seems to me that its a good thing.









I don't see it as a good thing when now I feel that if I don't take my Blue's Clues stuff down because I have now been made aware of the rules my integrity will be question.So now I have a product I worked hard on that is going to sit in a box.

And I rolled my eyes because I never implied you were speaking of me.I took your general comment and realized it applied to me becuase I had Blue's Clues items ,just as it applies to many other WAHMs , not just me.I didn't think you went to my site and picked on me.But the group you were talking about does include me so I said something about it.

eta I really don't want to continue this any further because I do not want to contribute any more to this thread.I think so many comments in this thread are just horrible in regaurds to the OP and I want it to go away so I am done posting to it.


----------



## allformyboys

Quote:

If one woman can knit 1-2 soakers per day, that would account for the amazing product volume.

Quote:

Just a question (since i dont knit ) .... how long would it take an experienced knitting to knit 1 soaker if thats all they did all day(no kids or other household stuff to distract them) ? I agree that all of the soaker prices out there are low for the time involved, i just dont know that I know exactly how much time it is.. kwim? TIA
One woman alone, with no kids and nothing else to do could easily knit 1-2 soakers a day, up to 3 if she worked long hours.

It takes me about 3 1/2- 4 hours to knit a medium soaker, this is just knitting, not the time it takes to unwind, dye, dry and rewind the yarn and not including the time the design works. So if you had pre-dyed yarn (which I am pretty sure they use, at least it appears so to me) and you don't have kids or something else distracting you (it is a 'job') and I don't believe these people said they were WAHM's that they were just two sisters, so we can assume they either don't have kids or knit outside the home. It would take (for an experienced knitter) 10 1/2 hours to knit three medium soakers. Which could easily be done in a day. Now the way they are churning out soakers, they may very well be faster than that, but for me that is what it would take. Ask me how I know







(my DH got laid off today for at least a week and so I am knitting with no distractions -well minmal- for 10-11 hours a day) Tough work though, not a pace I would want to keep up for sure! So in an 8 hour day you could do 2 soakers if you had no toddlers pulling at you wanting to do annoying things like EAT


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## Artisan

But Marnie, don't forget about hand fatigue. You know how sore your hands get after a long day of knitting? You could not keep that up forever. I once had a present promised to a friend for her child's baptism, and foolish me left it until the lat minute. I am an experienced, relatively fast knitter, and after one solid, uninterrupted day of working on this thing, I could barely move my hands.


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## Artisan

And Morgan, I hope you don't feel like I (or anyone else) was purposely picking on YOU.


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## allformyboys

Quote:


Originally Posted by *reader*
But Marnie, don't forget about hand fatigue. You know how sore your hands get after a long day of knitting? You could not keep that up forever. I once had a present promised to a friend for her child's baptism, and foolish me left it until the lat minute. I am an experienced, relatively fast knitter, and after one solid, uninterrupted day of working on this thing, I could barely move my hands.

Oh you mean those claw things at the end of my arms are supposed to MOVE?







Yes but after a while the fatigue gets better. I have been knitting like a mad woman and the first day it was bad, the second day it was a little better, now it only hurts in the AM for about 20 mins or so, I would venture to say like in any business that is repetitive (like typing) your muscles get used to it after a while and our body adjusts. I get online to type and post to stretch out my fingers and make them loosen up a bit before going back to knitting (or stitching as the case may be)


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## radish

Deepak Chopra was on Bill Maher and they were talking about Woody Allen/Soon Yi and Bill Maher was enraged/furious at the whole story. Deepak asked him to think about why this was so upsetting to him. It wasnt about HIM, did nothing to HIM...

This really stuck with me. Why is the thought of somone copying Karen *so* upsetting to you/us?

Maybe we have all bought something we weren't 100% "sure about". Maybe we buy Made in China products b/c it is easy/cheap. Maybe we shop at WalMart and wish we didn't. Maybe we have a Disney character dipe we know is illegal.

Stell (just using you as an example







) just posted that *she* is unsure of her dipe business practices and yet she was one who was really vocal and upset by the whole thing in the first place. YKWIM??

Just my .02


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## JohnnysGirl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allformyboys*

And as for the rest, *Butterflymom* don't beat yourself up for it it was a very cute drawing, and that is flattering that you liked it so much to want one, you didn't know/think about it, which is the good point of this thread, now you do!

Thanks Marinie, I appreciate that!







Turns out Kendell also doesn't hate me!














I have been forgiven!







Now I will be oh-so-careful about WAHM art and their rights.


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## radish

Angelica,
Dont feel bad I have done the same/similar thing!
Really, just not thinking at the time, now I feel horrible.


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## Artisan

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allformyboys*
Oh you mean those claw things at the end of my arms are supposed to MOVE?







Yes but after a while the fatigue gets better. I have been knitting like a mad woman and the first day it was bad, the second day it was a little better, now it only hurts in the AM for about 20 mins or so, I would venture to say like in any business that is repetitive (like typing) your muscles get used to it after a while and our body adjusts. I get online to type and post to stretch out my fingers and make them loosen up a bit before going back to knitting (or stitching as the case may be)

But remember that people that type all day long very often get tendonitis. While your body does get used to it to a certain extent, you WILL eventually deal with persistent pain if you push yourself far enough.


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## Ok

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2kyla*
Just a question (since i dont knit







) .... how long would it take an experienced knitting to knit 1 soaker if thats all they did all day(no kids or other household stuff to distract them) ? I agree that all of the soaker prices out there are low for the time involved, i just dont know that I know exactly how much time it is.. kwim? TIA









I lived in China (northern Jiangsu province), where knitting is very much still a part of daily life for huge numbers of women. They knit entire adult sweaters in not much more than a day. They did their best to teach me to knit, but I was a poor student for the chore. My mother is a speedy knitter and she's got nothing on these bamboo-knitting-needle women. As for fatigue, I'm sure they get tired. As for money, I made 900 yuan/mo when I taught in a college there. That was more than the chair of the Foreign Language Dept made, but they had to pay me that much to get a foreigner there. That translated back in 1989 to less than $200/mo, I think. Many Chinese have more than 1 job as well. They would have a "day" job, and then a kiosk kind-of-job where they sell whatever people will buy. Those who manage to hook into the foreign market are considered very lucky. Those are also the folks in the family that are looked to for helping everyone in the family.

I realize I'm digressing into my anthropology, but I can "feel" the BJM situation through remembering my time in (and years studying) China. The whole BJM situation feels very Chinese to me. The issue of copywriting isn't something the Chinese are very concerned about (think music, dvds, etc as well as clothing). Don't buy Chinese products if thats a big problem for you (but please acknowledge "we" exploit the Chinese as much as they exploit us). Then again, Chinese people have invented lots of things you take for granted and no one gave them a royalty for their inventions either. I like the pp who talked about how all this art is derivative. And in philosophy, some might argue there hasn't been an original thought since Plato and Artistotle.

And yes, I've witnessed it. Depending on whether in village, town or city as to how the household is set up, whatever children are around are watched over by whatever adults are around. And since there are fewer children now due to population restrictions, that makes more adults:child ratio in effect. Anyway, knitting is a social activity in China, so children could easily be watched in that social setting.

Admittedly I'm basically a relativist who tries not to judge others based on my life-- but tries to understand why others make the choices they do based on their life experiences/needs. Its true re: diapers and cultures.


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## Mina

Quote:


Originally Posted by *radish*
Deepak Chopra was on Bill Maher and they were talking about Woody Allen/Soon Yi and Bill Maher was enraged/furious at the whole story. Deepak asked him to think about why this was so upsetting to him. It wasnt about HIM, did nothing to HIM...

Wow, that is thought provoking. Thanks so much for sharing that.


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## Mina

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama.Virg*
I lived in China (northern Jiangsu province), where knitting is very much still a part of daily life for huge numbers of women.

Thanks for all that information. I'm glad that this thread was allowed to stay open as I've learned a lot.


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## MiaPia

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ReesesMomma*
As for the issue of copying...there really aren't too many ways to draw a flowering cacti. It'd be pretty difficult for them _not_ to look similar. Same goes with bees, and lots of other things. Although the KSS cacti is gorgeous, I'm sorry to say, the design of the cacti itself is not unique.

I know I probably shouldn't dredge this back up, and leave well enough alone, but I guess I'm a glutton for punishment.







:
As the owner of the original cactus KSS I have to respectfully disagree with your comment about there not being too many ways to draw a flowering cacti. If you Google "Saguaro" you'll see what I mean. The fact is that Karen and I e-mailed back and forth quite a bit with her showing me different sketches until we were satisfied that it looked the way I wanted.
I just had to get that off my chest.
This has been an extremely interesting thread to follow - and I have learned a lot from it.


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## Novajet

Just FYI- I asked my husband to draw a cactus, and he drew virtually an exact replica of these two, without seeing either one first.


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## cynthia mosher

I really hate to crash the thread and draw the curtains as much of this discussion has been interesting but there are some accusations and implications in the thread that cast suspicion on persons and that really is inapppropriate. So I'm closing the thread, will leave it briefly and then it will be pulled. I hope some of the thoughts posted have been beneficial and helped clarify questions and issues for some of you.

If you'd like to continue the general discussion of design rights, WAHM products made in China, what defines "handmade", etc. you can start another thread but please choose an appropriate discussion board. I think all of this would be more apppropriate in the WAHM Well, possibly in Activism, depending on topic.


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