# "Some people shouldn't have kids."



## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

Is this ALWAYS an insult, when you say it about someone? I've heard it a lot, but I don't think of it as an insult in and of itself, just in the way it's generally used, KWIM?

For instance, I'd say you shouldn't have kids if that obviously does not fit in your priorities, because you will always be striving for something else and start to see your kids as something that hinders your goals. Doesn't make you a bad person, just someone that shouldn't have kids. Stuff like that.

wow, no point, just a thought. I thought I had a point, but I guess I forgot it. Oh well.


----------



## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

We have a good family friend (guy) who loves REALLY nice, expensive things, loves to travel the world on a whim, has glass topped (with etching) furniture, and uses a lint roller after his short haired cat...and the list goes on.

He should NOT have children. Granted, he doesn't want them anyways, but I've said that to him before and he just smiles and says NO KIDDING! LOLOL Ironically enough he ADORES my kids, he's a great 'uncle' type.

But I get what you mean







When it's said to people who already HAVE kids it's an insult.

Bellevuemama


----------



## Kappa (Oct 15, 2007)

And I guess it's sort of an insult because who are you (or anyone) to judge? I mean, it's a human right to have children, not something that some one can dictate to some one else. Many people change after having children, and to tell a single/childless person that they wouldn't be able to change or want to change for a child is a bit presumptuous. Especially since a lot of the changes are temporary until the child becomes an adult him/herself.


----------



## urchin_grey (Sep 26, 2006)

Well, IMO, my middle sister shouldn't have kids (at least any time soon). This is what her childrearing game plan consists of:

-finish deployment
-start TTC
-have baby and stay with it for a year
-"give" baby to me or grammy for a year+ during another deployment

Repeat steps 3 and 4 for the next 15+ years.

My step-dad told her that she was out of her mind and they weren't taking her kid - they've already raised their's. I told her sorry, but if you give me a baby for a year or more, you ain't gettin' it back!


----------



## 2lilsweetfoxes (Apr 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *urchin_grey* 









Well, IMO, my middle sister shouldn't have kids (at least any time soon). This is what her childrearing game plan consists of:

-finish deployment
-start TTC
-have baby and stay with it for a year
-"give" baby to me or grammy for a year+ during another deployment

Repeat steps 3 and 4 for the next 15+ years.

My step-dad told her that she was out of her mind and they weren't taking her kid - they've already raised their's. I told her sorry, but if you give me a baby for a year or more, you ain't gettin' it back!

From a mom in the military--who happens to be pregnant right now, if someone told me that if she was my "Long Term Family Care Plan Provider/Guardian" and that I would not get the baby back when I returned, then we'd have issues. You'd be taking me to court. And I doubt that the judge would look kindly upon the guardian trying to keep the child permanently. Military service does NOT equal unfit parent. (luckily, I'm married to a civilian who can and will take care of our kids. That said, I know things can happen.).

Oh, and the stay with for a year? In the Army, we are deployable now at 6 months postpartum. So, basically, everyone in the military should delay childbearing until they are retired?


----------



## OkiMom (Nov 21, 2007)

2lilsweetfox- I was in when I had DD1 and its hard but worth it! Im lucky to have gotten out right after (I had four months left on contract when I had her) but I would have still had her even if I had more time left in. Good luck with the baby! And No, military service doesn't make you an unfit parent, if anything my husband (whos still in) is the most wonderful father because he knows he has to leave them at times. Hes probably the best father Ive seen.

I would never tell anyone or suggest that anyone shouldnt' be a parent. You dont' know what type of parent they would be. Some of the people I would think would have made the worst parents are great ones and some I thought would be great are aweful parents. Its not for anyone to decide whether someone else deserves to have children


----------



## urchin_grey (Sep 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2lilsweetfoxes* 
From a mom in the military--who happens to be pregnant right now, if someone told me that if she was my "Long Term Family Care Plan Provider/Guardian" and that I would not get the baby back when I returned, then we'd have issues. You'd be taking me to court. And I doubt that the judge would look kindly upon the guardian trying to keep the child permanently. Military service does NOT equal unfit parent. (luckily, I'm married to a civilian who can and will take care of our kids. That said, I know things can happen.).

Oh, and the stay with for a year? In the Army, we are deployable now at 6 months postpartum. So, basically, everyone in the military should delay childbearing until they are retired?


Hokay, you took everything I said out of context.









I did not say that military parent equaled unfit. But sorry, no one can convince me that it would be healthy for a child to literally spend YEARS away from _both_ parents its entire childhood. I'm not sure what the point of having children would be if you (general) are going to expect other people to raise them...? (Maybe I should have made it clear, but my sister's husband is also in the army.)

And what I meant by the "not getting it back" thing was that I wouldn't _let_ anyone give me a child to raise for a year in the first place. I'm not strong enough to raise a child for a year+ and then "give it back". Not going to happen.

ETA: And I have no idea what maternity leave is like in the army. That's just what my sister said.


----------



## momz3 (May 1, 2006)

When my husband deployed I saw SEVERAL young single mothers kissing their babies goodbye while they handed them off to a family member...it was heartbreaking







I have much respect for them. To be able to fight for our country and raise children. Can't be easy...


----------



## urchin_grey (Sep 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momz3* 
When my husband deployed I saw SEVERAL young single mothers kissing their babies goodbye while they handed them off to a family member...it was heartbreaking







I have much respect for them. To be able to fight for our country and raise children. Can't be easy...

I agree but I'm willing to bet that if they were single young moms, they were doing what they do to make a better life for their child in the long run and have no plans to be gone half their lives. That's a huge leap from letting someone else raise your kid because your job means more to you...

ETA: And this really isn't about military parents. I would say the same thing about my sister if she and her husband _both_ worked 60+ hours a week and they wanted to TTC anyway. I just don't get it. (And I'm a single, working mom myself.)


----------



## urchin_grey (Sep 26, 2006)

Oh, and I also wanted to add that I _would_ totally take any of my nieces or nephews for an extended period of time if there was some type of emergency or other extenuating circumstances. I'm not heartless. Its just the "on a year, off a year" thing that really does not appeal to me.


----------



## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

I don't like the phrase. It is often used as an insult. And it's a simplistic blanket statement that ignores a lot of other stuff.

My grandparents probably "shouldn't have had kids". And yet, somehow, two drunks who were miserable parents raised my mom. And I wouldn't be here without her. My dh's parents probably "shouldn't have had kids", as they were desperately poor to the point of starvation in Ethiopia. Yet here's my husband, for whom I'm so grateful.


----------



## Maggie05 (Jun 20, 2003)

I have a close friend from childhood. He is forty. He had a diificult childhood, and his parents were drug users. He has created an admirable life for himself, starting and running his own very successful business.

He doesn't think he wants children, and he really doesn't want to have them. He doesn't think he would be a good husband, and he is not sure he wants to marry. He is not a womanizer, nor is he a bad person at all. He is a good man.

When he talks to me about it, I agree that maybe he shouldn't get married, or have children. Others, like my mother, try to encourage him to get married and have children, but I think she is wrong to do that.

It is not an insult, it is supportive of his life, and his decisions.


----------



## MommaFox (Jul 21, 2008)

It depends....
Some people "Shouldn't" have kids because they just can't stand kids. I have a friend who whole-heartedly buys into "Children should be seen and not heard" ideology. SHe doesn't have children
Some people "Shouldn't" have kids because they have mild genetic problems that could be passed on. My DH and I are firmly in that category. But we've got our kids cause we love kids.
Some people "Shouldn't" have children because they want to travel on a moment's notice and see the world. I'm also in this category. I don't travel, but I want to. Even to the next state.. YK? Mostly I want to travel with my kids for educational stuff.
Then there are people who just... really... shouldn't. Because we don't want them passing on thier social issues to children. Screaming children practicing WWE moves in the wal-mart lanes without correction. Parents who use language that makes me blush... with thier kids.
It's totally a contextual thing. It's a statement of fact, and it can be used as an insult. It's the difference between meaing they "shoudln't have kids" and they "shouldn't be allowed to breed"


----------



## AlpineMama (Aug 16, 2007)

Look at it from the opposite view, though. Is there anyone who really SHOULD have kids? Like, 100% is the perfect parent, adores everything about their child(ren) and is the model of saintly patience and wisdom 100% of the time? No one really deserves their kids, if we're honest with ourselves, but people keep having them... Usually with decent outcomes.


----------



## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

I take issue with the entire concept. It smacks too much of "kids as material objects which only the deserving should be allowed". And while on MDC the definition of deserving (on top of "lack of abuse/neglect") also includes GD, extended breastfeeding or no circ , out in the world, most definitions of deserving involve money.

And the lionshare of the judgement on "deserving" is visited on the mother.

However, we are talking about creating new humans for our world. What parents do is a gift to humanity- sure some screw it up, and some kids are screwed up despite the parents. But luckily, humanity is pretty resilliant and most humans turn out pretty okay, often due to an extended community, not just the parents.

If the phrase is "some people shouldn't raise kids" - THAT is a totally different statement. There are some commonly agreed to baselines on how kids need to be raised - with love, food, warm clothes/home, basic security, lack of violence, etc. Add on to that whatever parenting philosophy that the culture supports/demands, and you get variations. But yes, if parents are unwilling (or unable) to provide the baseline (not the next level, which is much more subjective, but baseline), then they should not be entrusted to the care of dependents, be they children, the disabled or elderly, or animals. This is a larger community responsibility to all of humanity.

I think to break it down. The statement "shouldn't have kids" refers to conception/birth - i.e. the creation of a biological offspring. the statement "shouldn't raise kids" refers to the actual act of taking a child and raising it to adulthood. Do not conflate or confuse the two, because eugenics is based on this confusion.

My 2 cents.


----------



## primjillie (May 4, 2004)

I think they are many people who shouldn't have kids. My good friend at work is raising three of her grandchildren. Her druggie daughter had six children - two are dead because of her drug habit and the third was adopted out at birth because of her drugs. The three remaining that have been adopted by my friend are "drug babies" and have many issues and disorders which will prevent them from living a "normal" life. Raising these children have broken her marriage up and she hasn't seen her daughter in over a year. She doesn't know if she is dead or alive. Her granddaugher cries for her mom every night. Another friend at work is raising 4 of her grandsons from her drug addicted daughter. The oldest grandson has very serious problems from the drugs and won't live until adulthood. So yes, some people definitely should NOT have children. I also believe you shouldn't have children if you can't give them some of the material things that I think all children deserve - food, shelter, love, time, patience, clothes, some activities (sports, lessons, etc.), education and some toys/material items. My children never had tons of things, but we could provide the basics (and to me that includes the above). I know things happen and people come upon tough times, but I do think you should have a plan and a goal when you plan children. Just my opinion.......


----------



## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I just don't think it is ever a nice thing to say to anyone else.

I was told in college by someone that I shouldn't ever have kids. Maybe I shouldn't have at that point. I wasn't planning on it but the judgment stung. I probably didn't look like good mother material.
I later did get pregnant and have a child. It wasn't my plan but I changed quite a bit. My priorities changed. I'm not the worst parent on the planet either.

You could say to someone that they might have to change to deal with some aspects of parenting children without judging that they shouldn't ever have kids.


----------



## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

So, basically, everyone in the military should delay childbearing until they are retired?
If you're going to be deployed for months or years, I would say yes.

Quote:

Military service does NOT equal unfit parent.
It doesn't mean that you're an unfit parent when you're home, but when you're not there, well, you're not there.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Obviously everyone has a right to have children if able. But, really, the world would be a better place if abusive people didn't have kids. So I'd have to agree with the sentiment that some people shouldn't have them. That doesn't mean I think there should be licensing or laws or anything, just that I think there are people who would be best off not having them.


----------



## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

My parents were abusive but I'm pretty glad my siblings and I were born. Saying someone who has already had kids "shouldn't have kids" isn't just offensive to the parents, but to their existing children as well.

It's just not a cool thing to say to anyone, really. Who made you (collective you, not anyone specific in this thread) judge?


----------



## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *primjillie* 
I think they are many people who shouldn't have kids. My good friend at work is raising three of her grandchildren. Her druggie daughter had six children - two are dead because of her drug habit and the third was adopted out at birth because of her drugs. The three remaining that have been adopted by my friend are "drug babies" and have many issues and disorders which will prevent them from living a "normal" life. Raising these children have broken her marriage up and she hasn't seen her daughter in over a year. She doesn't know if she is dead or alive. Her granddaugher cries for her mom every night. Another friend at work is raising 4 of her grandsons from her drug addicted daughter. The oldest grandson has very serious problems from the drugs and won't live until adulthood. So yes, some people definitely should NOT have children. I also believe you shouldn't have children if you can't give them some of the material things that I think all children deserve - food, shelter, love, time, patience, clothes, some activities (sports, lessons, etc.), education and some toys/material items. My children never had tons of things, but we could provide the basics (and to me that includes the above). I know things happen and people come upon tough times, but I do think you should have a plan and a goal when you plan children. Just my opinion.......

I absolutely agree. It breaks my heart the way so many kids are treated as nothing more than the result of a coupling. The abuse some children face on a daily basis is unimaginable. It takes more than giving birth to become a parent in the full sense of the word. Children don't ask to be born and once born they need to be nurtured and cared for and treated with love and respect.


----------



## Breeder (May 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *primjillie* 
I think they are many people who shouldn't have kids. My good friend at work is raising three of her grandchildren. Her druggie daughter had six children..

I agree with this.

My mother and father did a kinship adoption with my two youngest sisters (I have three- 1 bio). My half sister drank and smoked while pregnant with B and did heavy drugs (like cocaine) with A. Both babies have fetal alcohol syndrome and the youngest, A had a hole in her heart, low birth weight, under developed lungs, and now as an adult has a slew of psychological issues that she struggles with every single day. Until they found the right meds, she used to scream in her sleep every.single.night.









I love B and A, they were raised as my sisters. They are good people. BUT I think that their mother was unfit to carry babies. She was unfit to trust with being pregnant.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peainthepod* 
My parents were abusive but I'm pretty glad my siblings and I were born. Saying someone who has already had kids "shouldn't have kids" isn't just offensive to the parents, but to their existing children as well.

It's just not a cool thing to say to anyone, really. Who made you (collective you, not anyone specific in this thread) judge?

That's reading a bit into it. My parents were abusive too. I didn't say "some kids shouldn't have been born." That's reaching beyond the statement.


----------



## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

I don't think it's an insult, just a fact. Not everyone lives a life that is compatible with children; not everyone WANTS to live a life that's compatible with children.

Personally, I'm a firm believer in bringing my kids with me, exposing them to all kinds of things, and having kids who know how to behave in all kinds of situations -- and it's worked for me. But I also have a pretty tame life . . . we like things like dinners out, movies, concerts, shows, etc. If what I wanted to do was party every weekend, get too drunk to drive (or, you know, supervise my kids), etc., then I'd be someone who shouldn't have kids.

Basically, if you aren't going to raise them, don't have them.


----------



## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
That's reading a bit into it. My parents were abusive too. I didn't say "some kids shouldn't have been born." That's reaching beyond the statement.

You said you felt the world would be a better place if abusive people didn't have children. But then neither of us would be born. I don't know about you, but I'm pretty happy that I was.

I just don't think the statement "Some people shouldn't have kids" is ever really appropriate. Maybe a better statement would be, "Some people would make lousy parents." Mine sure were, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have had kids, KWIM?

You're welcome to disagree, of course. That's just my take on it.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peainthepod* 
You said you felt the world would be a better place if abusive people didn't have children. But then neither of us would be born. I don't know about you, but I'm pretty happy that I was.

The world would be a better place if abusive people didn't have kids. That's true. That doesn't mean that people should be done away with if their parents were abusive. Again, it's reading way beyond what I was saying. I would have been better off if I'd been born to parents who weren't abusive.


----------



## rhiandmoi (Apr 28, 2006)

There are definitely people who have children, who shouldn't have children. Getting to raise up children is a privilege extended to those who will love them and strive to make the best decisions possible in their upbringing. It might not be my place to judge who is fit enough to be a parent, but I am glad that there are people who it is their job and duty to protect children.


----------



## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom* 
I don't like the phrase. It is often used as an insult. And it's a simplistic blanket statement that ignores a lot of other stuff.

My grandparents probably "shouldn't have had kids". And yet, somehow, two drunks who were miserable parents raised my mom. And I wouldn't be here without her. My dh's parents probably "shouldn't have had kids", as they were desperately poor to the point of starvation in Ethiopia. Yet here's my husband, for whom I'm so grateful.









What a refreshing and beautifully written post. When people judge others as unfit parents, they're overlooking the children themselves. I wouldn't wish ill will on any child, but who are we to judge a child's resilience or capacity to overcome adversity?


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I think the reason we're as a group split on this is because some people look at it as a logical statement, and for the rest of us it isn't a logical statement and isn't intended to be taken apart logically. It's just a statement of emotion - some people are lousy parents and probably shouldn't be parents. But if you look at it logically, you take the logical step of "but that says that the kids shouldn't have been born." For those of us for whom this isn't a logical statement but simply an emotional reaction, we are not taking that logical step and it isn't a comment on the children at all.


----------



## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Turquesa* 







What a refreshing and beautifully written post. When people judge others as unfit parents, they're overlooking the children themselves. I wouldn't wish ill will on any child, but who are we to judge a child's resilience or capacity to overcome adversity?

I don't think they're overlooking the children at all. The children are the point. What many of us are saying is that children shouldn't have to overcome adversity. They should be raised in homes where they are loved and protected. And people who are unstable, abusive, or just don't want children would do well to not conceive them.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

It's an insult whenever it's directed at (or said about) anyone besides yourself.


----------



## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

urchin_grey: I hear what you're saying about your sister. I live right.next.to Wright Patt AFB (largest research base I can think of







) and I see a lot of young families. Maybe our base is lucky and we are super family friendly. I could never, ever, have a child then leave them behind for years at a time. Then again, maybe thats why I'm not in the military.







.

I think that if its said in jest, like uber-clean cat hair roller previously mentioned. Its a joke. If you say it out of context or to be judgmental.







: I make that face.

Also, I'm one of those people that no one thought would ever have kids. I'm not Sally-Homemaker, I'm not Molly-Mormon, most people think that I don't even like kids, which I don't like other peoples kids (I don't like to wear other peoples pants either, but that doesn't mean I don't like to wear pants). I think I'll make a fine mom, maybe I'm just being stubborn.


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

It's a hard one for me since the only time I've ever about someone who shouldn't have kids it was directed at me because 1) I'm gay and we all know kids from samesex homes are messed up







2) I'm legally blind, so how on earth can you raise a child? or 3) You have a history of mental illness, your children will suffer for it. Once even all three came up as a reason I shouldn't have kids.

I can understand it as not offensive if it's a joke and the other person _knows_ it's a joke. The rest of the time it's just plain insulting.


----------



## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
1) I'm gay and we all know kids from samesex homes are messed up

















: that enrages me and makes me ill all at the same time. I can't even process words.... And I'm straight! I would probably explode over this if I was gay.


----------



## ShwarmaQueen (Mar 28, 2008)

I have a close friend who has had severe mental problems since childhood. Her parents abused her, she's tried committing suicide several times, she's on and off different psych drugs and I don't think it would be inappropriate to say that she should never have kids. She doesn't want kids and I truely believe that she's not stable enough to be able to raise a child. As someone who has suffered depression and taken antidepressants, I'm not saying all people with mental problems shouldn't, but knowing what I do, it is fair in her case.


----------



## filiadeluna (Oct 2, 2007)

The only people that I can say should 100% not have children are those who _abuse and/or neglect_ their children.







I am _not_ saying that people who were abused should never have been born, but obviously their parents didn't deserve to have the love of a child if they didn't treat them well. Just my 2c.


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kriket* 







: that enrages me and makes me ill all at the same time. I can't even process words.... And I'm straight! I would probably explode over this if I was gay.

Yeah, last time someone said that to me (yes _to_ me) I told them: "Yeah, DD is very messed up. What with caring about everyone and accepting people who are different. That the last sort of person this world needs"


----------



## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

I have a friend that I say shouldn't have kids, and I (and as far as I know, he) doesn't consider it insult. He doesn't want kids (at least right now) and they would not fit into his life very well. He's under a lot of familial/societal pressure to settle down and breed, though. So in this case "Some people shouldn't have kids" is closer to "Not everyone needs to have kids to be happy and fulfilled" and less like "You are a horrible person who would make a terrible parent.". Kwim?


----------



## amnda527 (Aug 6, 2006)

I agree with a pp- "who are we to judge?" but sometimes I think some people would be better off if they didn't have children. I worked in a school and there was a little boy whose mother was on drugs during her pregnancy. He was physically healthy, but he had a long list of social issues, discipline problems, etc etc. He really was too much for our school, I think he needed to be placed with teachers who knew how to deal with him better. I always felt like, "this woman should not have gotten pregnant...now this boy will suffer with these problems for the rest of his life..." But at the same time, the kid was such a joy when he wasn't having an outburst...so I'm not saying.."this boy shouldn't have been born"


----------



## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

I'm a special educator, and yes, in my time I've had children whose parents should never have had children -- these children had suffered unspeakable horrors by the time they arrived in my classroom.

I also have a brother who is the type of person about whom people say "they shouldn't have children". He's a pilot who works basically one week on and one week off. On his week on he's gone -- all over the country. On his week off he likes to go camping or kayaking or skiing. He's said that he doesn't think he'll ever have children because he thinks that kids need their parents home every night, and that even if his (currently nonexistant) wife was home every night he'd feel guilty that he wasn't there -- but he'd also feel awful to give up a career he's worked hard to build and that he loves with a passion.

I respect his choice not to have kids -- I totally get the logic. But the fact that he holds himself to such high standards when he considers kids, tells me that if he chose to do it he'd do a great job, and the world would be fortunate to have the kind of kids he'd raise. So while I get why he doesn't want kids, and I would never question that decision, partially because I think the logic behind it is sound, I'd never say that he "shouldn't have kids".

I guess I'm saying that I do think it's an insult.


----------



## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
1) I'm gay and we all know kids from samesex homes are messed up







.

When I was in high school our government class divided up over issues and debated them, and one of the issues was gay marriage. Needless to say there was a lot of the "unfit parents with messed up kids" stuff flung around. (My mom is a lesbian) yeah, I pretty much ended up running out of the classroom crying.







Only a few people in my class even knew that about me though. I'm hoping that from that incident at least a few minds were changed, or at least opened.


----------



## ginadc (Jun 13, 2006)

Of course there are people who shouldn't have kids. My friend/frenemy C. is one of them. She cannot stand kids. Hates 'em. Actually once said that she "loses respect" for her friends when they/we have kids. (I think it drives her crazy that, of our group of a dozen or so women who all married around the same time, all but about 3 now have kids. Um, what did you expect? Most people do, and it tends to happen after you get married...)

Anyway, she's clearly someone who shouldn't have kids, and fortunately realizes that and has no desire to do so. If by some accident she got pregnant, she'd likely abort (most likely, as she's very vain about being thin) or place for adoption.


----------



## colobus237 (Feb 2, 2004)

It could be both insulting and true.


----------



## angelamariebee (Jun 20, 2008)

I agree OP, some people shouldn't have kids and it's not always an insult. Like any other job, parenting is NOT for everyone. Who these people are though, I'm not qualified to say.


----------



## angelamariebee (Jun 20, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
If you're going to be deployed for months or years, I would say yes.

It doesn't mean that you're an unfit parent when you're home, but when you're not there, well, you're not there.

Ew, that's completely unfair to say. For some people, having children wasn't a conscious decision they made one day. Unfortunately (and fortunately) people just get pregnant unintentionally. And if the military allows them to care for that child the best way they know how, who are you to judge them? The military provides a steady paycheck, health insurance, etc. I'm sure these families don't like be split up and would rather all be together but this isn't a perfect world. It's hard enough being away from your children, and your hurtful comments are not helpful.


----------



## angelamariebee (Jun 20, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peainthepod* 
My parents were abusive but I'm pretty glad my siblings and I were born. Saying someone who has already had kids "shouldn't have kids" isn't just offensive to the parents, but to their existing children as well.

It's just not a cool thing to say to anyone, really. Who made you (collective you, not anyone specific in this thread) judge?

Right. It's one thing to say, "Some people shouldn't have children," without pointing fingers in specific directions, because it's true. But it's entirely different to say, "You shouldn't *have had* children." I would never tell someone with existing children that it would be better if they hadn't been born. That's awful.


----------



## angelamariebee (Jun 20, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
The world would be a better place if abusive people didn't have kids. That's true. That doesn't mean that people should be done away with if their parents were abusive. Again, it's reading way beyond what I was saying. I would have been better off if I'd been born to parents who weren't abusive.

You're wording is a little off and I can see why she finds it offensive. What I'm assuming you mean is, "People shouldn't abuse children," not that they shouldn't have been born. Even people with abusive parents grow up to do great things (I'm sure you know).


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frontierpsych* 
When I was in high school our government class divided up over issues and debated them, and one of the issues was gay marriage. Needless to say there was a lot of the "unfit parents with messed up kids" stuff flung around. (My mom is a lesbian) yeah, I pretty much ended up running out of the classroom crying.







Only a few people in my class even knew that about me though. I'm hoping that from that incident at least a few minds were changed, or at least opened.









I'm very sorry for what you went through, and also for what some ignorant person said to MusicianDad.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelamariebee* 
Who these people are though, I'm not qualified to say.

That's what it really boils down to, IMO. It's totally out-of-line to say it about anyone other than than yourself (general you







).


----------



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Disclaimer: I haven't yet read the whole thread.

In general, if you're saying it about somebody who already has kids, it's an insult. How else could a parent take a comment like that?

If you're saying it about somebody who is childless by choice, and has made that fact known, then it's not an insult- it's a simple statement of fact.

If you're saying it about a childless person, and you have no clue if they're childless by choice, suffering from infertility, or "just haven't decided to have kids yet" then it's very likely to be insulting.

Now, if you're talking in a general manner, not about anybody in particular, then I don't see the insult either- there's to take offense! And, as a general rule, I *do* beleive that there are some people who shouldn't have kids- in general, they're the ones who choose not to. There are also people who should have lots of kids and people who should stop at one or two- but this doesn't always happen according to our plans, as our fertility isn't entirely up to our control.

If you're going to complain about what you perceive as "bad parenting" and make the comment "well, some people just shouldn't have kids!" (and this is the most common usage of the phrase that I've seen) then it most definitely is insulting.


----------



## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
Disclaimer: I haven't yet read the whole thread.

In general, if you're saying it about somebody who already has kids, it's an insult. How else could a parent take a comment like that?

If you're saying it about somebody who is childless by choice, and has made that fact known, then it's not an insult- it's a simple statement of fact.

If you're saying it about a childless person, and you have no clue if they're childless by choice, suffering from infertility, or "just haven't decided to have kids yet" then it's very likely to be insulting.

Now, if you're talking in a general manner, not about anybody in particular, then I don't see the insult either- there's to take offense! And, as a general rule, I *do* beleive that there are some people who shouldn't have kids- in general, they're the ones who choose not to. There are also people who should have lots of kids and people who should stop at one or two- but this doesn't always happen according to our plans, as our fertility isn't entirely up to our control.

If you're going to complain about what you perceive as "bad parenting" and make the comment "well, some people just shouldn't have kids!" (and this is the most common usage of the phrase that I've seen) then it most definitely is insulting.









:
Once again I agree 100 percent with Ruthla. She speaks of wisdom


----------



## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
I don't think they're overlooking the children at all. The children are the point. What many of us are saying is that children shouldn't have to overcome adversity. They should be raised in homes where they are loved and protected. And people who are unstable, abusive, or just don't want children would do well to not conceive them.

I would love to see children protected from adversity. I just don't know how we can always protect them.

Out of curiosity, how would you carry your opinion to fruition? If we take at face value that some people shouldn't ever conceive children, I can only see two choices on the horizon--1. Continue to complain about it while nothing changes or 2. Aggressively combat it through policy measures that have frightening ramifications.







:


----------



## 2pinks (Dec 20, 2007)

what ruthla said.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Turquesa* 
Out of curiosity, how would you carry your opinion to fruition? If we take at face value that some people shouldn't ever conceive children, I can only see two choices on the horizon--1. Continue to complain about it while nothing changes or 2. Aggressively combat it through policy measures that have frightening ramifications.







:

Wow! That article is scary! And I was just thinking The Netherlands was a socialist democracy -- not a socialist dictaorship. Hopefully the voters won't accept this!


----------



## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think that this phrase is insulting. The choice to have children is a personal choice. Some people are legally not allowed to have their kids any more because they are abusive and I think that this phrase would apply to them but no one else. This phrase shouldn't be applied who do enjoy their luxury, vacations, and are choosing to not have kids because they may make great parents. I wasn't for having kids or even fond of kids until I had my dd and everything changed for me after that, so I think it is insulting to use the same phrase you would use for abusive people on childless friends or complete strangers.


----------



## MountainLaurel (Dec 17, 2005)

I think it's pretty much just a statement of fact, though it can be used as an insult if in your mind people who should have children are somehow superior. And I think that it can be used in reference to people who do have children without it being an insult: Mr. Laurel's grandmother would be the first to admit she and her husband should have not had children (but in those days it was just what you did).


----------



## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

Depends on the context.

My middle brother shouldn't have kids (right now) he's just NOT at a good place in his life to be a father...which is why I tell him to keep it in his pants but ya know...He is 22 years old (nothing against young people, my DS was born 1 week before my 21st birthday) but he wants to be a 'kid' he wants to party and hang out and be irresponsible. He's just NOT in a place in his life to have children. He says he never wants children and is saving his pennies for a vasectomy...I asked him to rethink that but he said he'd rather regret NOT having children than regret having children...if he gets the 'baby bug' he'll adopt...says he has my babies so he don't need any of his own.

Then there are people that just flat out shouldn't be parents. I can think of a few off the top of my head...they are terrible parents to the kids they have.

I don't support forced sterilization so I guess I'll just bish about it and say "Gosh, Jane Smith is a HORRIBLE mother. Poor baby." and move on with my life (many of these bad parents I know aren't CPS worthy, but they are just icky parents)


----------



## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peainthepod* 
You said you felt the world would be a better place if abusive people didn't have children. But then neither of us would be born. I don't know about you, but I'm pretty happy that I was.

I just don't think the statement "Some people shouldn't have kids" is ever really appropriate. Maybe a better statement would be, "Some people would make lousy parents." Mine sure were, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have had kids, KWIM?

You're welcome to disagree, of course. That's just my take on it.

You would have been born to different parents, or your soul would have. I believe every soul is eventually born. If your beliefs don't go along with that it's fine...but really...if you weren't born you wouldn't know it would you?


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MountainLaurel* 
I think it's pretty much just a statement of fact,

Except it's actually a statement of the speaker's _opinion_, not an undisputed _fact_.

Quote:

though it can be used as an insult if in your mind people who should have children are somehow superior.
Well, generally the "reasons" people give for saying someone shouldn't have kids are not exactly flattering. I've never heard anyone say, "She's just such a kind, generous, warm, and wonderful person -- I sure hope she never has kids!"

Quote:

And I think that it can be used in reference to people who do have children without it being an insult: Mr. Laurel's grandmother would be the first to admit she and her husband should have not had children (but in those days it was just what you did).
I don't know about you, but I can admit to something about myself (i.e. that I should never wear short shorts because of my fat thighs and cellulite) -- but I would still feel insulted if someone else pointed it out to me ...

I thought I should throw that in there, because some people truly do seem clueless, and think that if you make some criticism of yourself, then that area is fair game for them to comment on --

As in, when I was pregnant with my younger dd, one of my friends commented that, being an older mom, I was more likely to have twins. And I said well I think I'd be gaining faster if there were more than one baby in here, and then she said _well_, but, since you're overweight (since you've already said it about yourself I feel it's okay to say it to you), that can make it less obvious ...

And I'm sitting there thinking, man, she's just informed me that I'm old and fat!







:And it never occurred to her that she was stepping over a line, since I'd made previous references to my age and weight.

I guess she thought, like you, that a simple "statement of fact" couldn't possibly be offensive.









While I can understand sometimes feeling enraged over how a child's being treated, I just don't see the need to go back and forth over whether it's an insult to say that certain people should never have kids. It's certainly not a compliment.


----------



## soposdedi (May 9, 2005)

It is simply NOT my right to declare whether or not one person or another 'should' have children. Me myself? I am ten times of messed up. My parents are both nuts in their own ways, both addicts in different ways, and my mom is somewhere on the autism/Asperger's spectrum. My upbringing could be considered traumatic on SOOO many levels, and also looking at it in black and white, 'I' really shouldn't be a parent! My issues have issues







. Yet here I am, a mother, always wanted to be one, crave to be mother to more than one if goddess allows. I refuse to pass that kind of grandiose, generalized judgement on a person that I probably don't even know. The greatest people have come from tragic beginnings in many cases, as far as I know. The human race is a funny thing *shrug*.


----------



## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I thought I should throw that in there, because some people truly do seem clueless, and think that if you make some criticism of yourself, then that area is fair game for them to comment on --

I'm guilty of that sometimes, I think, because I don't personally find it insulting when people do that. I'm working on my empathy though, lol!
What I have a harder time with personally is when people make criticisms that I disagree with, or even stuff that I do agree with but hadn't noticed yet, though I tend to get over that pretty fast.


----------



## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom* 
I don't like the phrase. It is often used as an insult. And it's a simplistic blanket statement that ignores a lot of other stuff.

My grandparents probably "shouldn't have had kids". And yet, somehow, two drunks who were miserable parents raised my mom. And I wouldn't be here without her. My dh's parents probably "shouldn't have had kids", as they were desperately poor to the point of starvation in Ethiopia. Yet here's my husband, for whom I'm so grateful.

Praise God!


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frontierpsych* 
I'm guilty of that sometimes, I think, because I don't personally find it insulting when people do that. I'm working on my empathy though, lol!
What I have a harder time with personally is when people make criticisms that I disagree with, or even stuff that I do agree with but hadn't noticed yet, though I tend to get over that pretty fast.

I think that's a cool way to be.







But it *is* a good idea to remember that most of us aren't getting there any time soon.


----------



## KurumiSophia (Nov 28, 2007)

I haven't read any of the other replies but I have found that that phrase does ring true for some people. For example, my DH's friend has three children but will buy for his own wants before the needs of his children. It constantly makes me sad to see that two of the children still need glasses. The eldest is on the edge of a breakdown because he's had to watch his siblings constantly while mom and dad are at work or partying, the middle child is sensitive and has self-harm issues while constantly being told to "man up", and the youngest dresses far too sexually for her young age.

These are parents who don't screen movies, games, or anything. They've been exposed to all sorts of things from the time they were small and are screamed at constantly.

These are parents who should NOT have had children, yet there they are.


----------



## 5796 (Oct 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frontierpsych* 
Is this ALWAYS an insult, when you say it about someone? I've heard it a lot, but I don't think of it as an insult in and of itself, just in the way it's generally used, KWIM?

For instance, I'd say you shouldn't have kids if that obviously does not fit in your priorities, because you will always be striving for something else and start to see your kids as something that hinders your goals. Doesn't make you a bad person, just someone that shouldn't have kids. Stuff like that.

wow, no point, just a thought. I thought I had a point, but I guess I forgot it. Oh well.










I don't see how it can be insulting since I think a lot of people of which this would be said, probably already know it.


----------

