# SAHM/sacrifice and our daughters



## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

I'm really conflicted about this. I am giving up a career to be a sahm (this is not a career that I can take time off from and step back into). I'm OK with my choice, except when I think of my daughters. I am sacrificing all those years of schooling (7 years of graduate school) to be a mother to my daughters who, unless work changes, will have to sacrifice all their years of schooling and all thier career ambitions (many careers do not allow time off - university professor, partner track lawyer, etc) in order to mother thier kids.

Everytime I marvel at my daughter's talent or aptitude in something, I'll have to realize that she may only be able to pursue it until she has kids.

Clearly this is a dire picture and clearly many sahm find a way to have meaningful careers after kids (though if you have kids in your thirties, it is very hard since age discrimination often preculdes starting over at 45 and working your way up the ladder).

What do y'all think? I think we need to start SCREAMING about how work is still set up on a one-parent earner model which means that many careers require 60 hours of work and thus preclude mothering the way many of us want to mother.


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## hrheka (Feb 12, 2004)

I'm in a slightly different boat since I am a WAHM, but it is exactly your struggle that made me decide to be a WAHM and work all hours to do so. It is important to me to show my daughter that my interests & life can continue and be nurtured by her and that she can grow up and find a way to pursue her interests and dreams no matter what.

I have no idea what you went to school for but is there anyway that you can pursue your interests or what you were trained for in another way? Maybe don't look at your ability to bring the bacon home as a marker as to whether or not you are using your education in a way that shows your daughters that there are many ways to use your education.

I think its sad that our society does not value interests unless they make money. If you make money from something it is valid otherwise it is a silly hobby. I think finding alternate ways to use your education could really enrich your own life & your daughters' lives.


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## Pigpen (Dec 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hrheka*
I think its sad that our society does not value interests unless they make money. If you make money from something it is valid otherwise it is a silly hobby. I think finding alternate ways to use your education could really enrich your own life & your daughters' lives.

Excellent point!! That's a great value to instill while they're young...it's not always about money. Although for many (most) here, money is definately an issue. Especially if, like many SAHP's you give up a lot materially to be able to stay home. An extra income would enable you to save for retirement, invest, or just to be able to purchase a home. I think that as far as our daughters are concerned, the best we can do is help them pursue their dreams and then they can decide what to do when/if they have children.


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## cozymama (Apr 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
many careers do not allow time off - university professor, partner track lawyer, etc

I think we need to start SCREAMING about how work is still set up on a one-parent earner model which means that many careers require 60 hours of work and thus preclude mothering the way many of us want to mother.
































Thank you so much for that first part.....I really feel that people in other fields who start with "I'm/You should take time off" have NO idea what it means to be in a profession where this is IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!!!!!! And unfortunately it's often more "professional" (aka lawyer, doctor/surgeon, prof, etc.) fields that may pay more where this is the case......

As for the second point, more







.....must go nurse though.....


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

YES!!!!!!!!!! I struggle with this daily. I quit my job just over a year ago. I was an engineer and it is the same thing. I will not be employable (as an engineer anyway) in 5 years which is the earliest I could (given we have no more children). It is very disheartening.

Yooper


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## siddie (Jan 15, 2003)

I am a nurse with a master's degree. I think that logically speaking, it is difficult to take a large period of time off and stay current in your field. Research and technology are moving so fast, big things can happen in one year to change your practice. Even if you maintain a subscription to journals, who has time to read it with little ones around? Plus, you need to be able to discuss the new literature with others in your field. Then there is the matter of implementing it, impossible to do unless you are working. So I think we should work towards getting established refresher courses to help us step back into our fields along with legislation to make it easier for us to take large breaks off ore even better - to be able to work 1 day per month or week to keep current when we are ready to be away from our kids.


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## AahRee (Jan 23, 2003)

I have a slightly different perspective. I think it's great that some women want to go back to work, and they DEFINITELY should have the opportunity to do so, but it's not what I want. I don't feel like I'll have wasted my education by not going back to work. I'm investing my education in my daughter. And if my daughter chooses to make the same investment in her child(ren) someday, I'll be happy for her that she has the opportunity to make that choice. I had a scary illness this past year, and I spent a lot of time thinking about what I wanted from life if I was lucky enough to have any life left. I decided (for myself - this isn't a judgment on anyone else's decisions) that what I really wanted was to invest as much of my time as I could into my marriage and my child. I will probably have to work part-time someday, to supplement our family income, but I don't want to work at a career that would take me away from my child during her non-school hours, so I'll probably stick with jobs that aren't as meaningful, so that I can be with my family as much as possible.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I've always said that this is why men run the world. They don't birth and nurse the babies.

Men can choose a career. They can choose to run off and leave mom a single parent. They can choose whether or not they want to work (well, most can.) But due to our biology, we have to take care of our offspring, which greatly hinders our creative, social, and financial outcome.

Oops, sorry, back on topic, ladies


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## Peony (Nov 27, 2003)

I don't see my education as wasted (another RN here







) I love being a SAHM, but I agree with siddie. I would love to stay home until my children are grown then return to work, which is not realistic. Who is going to hire a nurse who has been out of her field for years. I had a casual position at a hospital that was suposed to be only 2 days a month, I would get daily phone calls to come in and work because "after all, you can't only work 2 days a month, and be a team player" needless to say my employment there was short lived. I just took a small voluteer job helping moms where dd is welcome at







, it's not exactly using my skills, but I love it. It is only a couple hours a month so it's perfect for us. I want my dd to see that yes, I could of worked if I wanted to, but that it is ok to just be a mom.


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## Mamm2 (Apr 19, 2004)

When I was growing up, my mom was always working. Those where very lonely times. Then she stopped to be a SAHM and I loved it. I still grew up and got a college education. I had my career, got everything out of my system, and now I am a SAHM.

I think what you are teaching your daughter is wonderful. She will thank you when she is older.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

OP, I agree, it's so frustrating. As an attorney specializing in public interest environmental law, I've really painted myself into a corner - there are few job opportunities period, let alone ones that allow part-time, flextime, jobsharing, etc. I feel like I bought into this feminist idea of "I can be anything I want to be" and pursued graduate education, amassing tons of debt, only to find that I couldn't be away from my baby, so I quit my dream job after 6 weeks back after maternity leave - as it turned out, my boss was also less than family-friendly.

I'm now working again in a temporary position in my field - filling in for another woman who went out on maternity leave. But this will end in a month or two, and then what??? I hate that I have to choose between my career and my kids - there's no in-between in my field.





















I have no clue how I'm going to get another job in my field, let alone one that will let me be part-time while my kids are young.

And why aren't dads asking themselves these hard questions? My dh would no sooner consider quitting his job to be a SAHD or a part-time worker than he would cutting off his right arm. He's very committed as a father - and doesn't work long hours, does more than half the housework, etc. - but still, these questions of job success and satisfaction vs. parental quality don't bother him at all!!

I'm pregnant with a girl (my elder is a boy) and I too worry about how to raise her so she doesn't run into the same brick wall that I have when expectations meet reality. Not that I want to discourage her from pursuing her dreams, but I also want her to choose her path wisely so she doesn't have to choose between family and career. (Same goes for my son, actually.)


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## Cloverlove (Jan 2, 2003)

I agree that we really need to change our 40 hour work week model.

I have also sacrificed my career and after 3 years of being out of my field, I really want to get back into it. Looking for a job these past couple of months has been very discouraging. I am uncomfortable with my economic dependency on DH but I am also not OK with being away from my family 40 hours a week. To make matters worse is I still have quite a bit of debt from a degree I really can't use. It is so frustrating!

As for DD, I will support her no matter what. At the very least I will pay for her education so if she does decide to be a sahm, she will not be saddled with debt.

And yes, I do have some resentful feelings towards DH. He has been climbing the ladder, has current, in-demand skills, professional contacts and a nice retirement fund in addition to well-adjusted children and a smooth-running household







:


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

I wonder the same thing. What's going to happen once they have kids? Of course I'd do all the free child care in the world if they wanted me too... but would they really want to be away from their children while they worked? I wouldn't want that for them!

I don't have any answers, but I think you have to go into it with the absolute conviction that they should get a college education. This will open doors for them if they ever do have to be financially independent.

I don't believe an education is "thrown away" when a woman decides to SAHM. Even a professional graduate type degree. Just about any kind of learning is beneficial to the mind and soul, and it's the mind and soul we draw upon to be mothers.

I could have my historical figures mixed up but I believe it was Thomas Moore who insisted his daughters be as educated as his sons, even though he lived in an era when girls were usually not educated, and did not work (other than housekeepers/ nannies/ cooks).


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

You know what! I don't feel that way at all!

My dd does watch me work. I organize, plan, and supervise people. I create and distribute a newsletter for 900 families. I volunteer and tutor children who are needy. I planned an event that brought in 500 people for the school. Radio Disney came and DJ'd the event. I am awesome and my dd feels it! The difference between that and working for a paycheck and doing that is that it revolves around her!

I chair several PTO committees. My dd does observe her mom working.

I am a very smart woman and my dd is brilliant because of it. My education has everything to do with how I am raising my children. Rather than look at it that you are throwing away your education, imagine how broad your children's horizons will be!

You know what - we all do what we can to make our children's lives better and richer. My boys will date and marry strong women who challenge their minds!








and now I'm going away because I've embarrassed myself!








(now why do I feel that way? That's what is wrong with society - a woman should not feel embarrassed for being and feeling awesome!)


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meowee*
Just about any kind of learning is beneficial to the mind and soul, and it's the mind and soul we draw upon to be mothers.


Wow. That was beautiful.


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## mamaley (Mar 18, 2002)

lab, don't be embarrassed! that was a great post.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

I'm more of a WAHM since I have continued to do some consulting based at home. However, I was on the professor fast track and gave it up for life style reasons -- I wanted to be able to work at home, get a higher rate of pay, so that I could work few hours and still contribute some $$ to the household. My view is that anyone with such a high amount of education can leverage it into _something_ later on, though not necessarily its intended purpose. WE're contemplating another huge income shift in the next 10 years that has nothing to do with our training.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gale Force*
My view is that anyone with such a high amount of education can leverage it into _something_ later on, though not necessarily its intended purpose.

I'll have a ph.D in english with no real work expereince beyond academic positions. I'll also be about 45 when I try to re-enter the workforce.

I agree that people can do things with thier education beyond the usual route - but it takes a lot of scheming. I really can't not work at all for 8 years if I hope to do something meaningful with myself when my kids are older (I also worry about feeling empty when they pull away in their teenage years and I have nothing but them as my job).

I'll have to start scheming as soon as I am back up on my feet, working part-time at non-profits to make contacts and gain experience etc, which, of course, means that my kids will be without me 10-20 hours a week.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland*
I've always said that this is why men run the world. They don't birth and nurse the babies.


Well, that and cultural/institutional sexism.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hrheka*
I think its sad that our society does not value interests unless they make money. If you make money from something it is valid otherwise it is a silly hobby. I think finding alternate ways to use your education could really enrich your own life & your daughters' lives.

It is true that even though intellectually/emotionally I don't agree with it, I still indentify self-worth with profession. Work with self (and work only counts if it is a "profession"). I don't know how to break that identification.


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## cozymama (Apr 27, 2004)

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think anyone is saying that they've wasted their education. I personally don't feel that way at all and don't really hear that from others either. What I do hear is women saying that they don't fit in to the "I will take this time now to SAH and return to work later" because we have are in/aspire to be in professions that don't work that way. I'm very happy that someone has raised the point that many professions do not allow for a 2, 5, 10, 15 or 40 year hiatus. I'm very interested in what that means for women and men as parents as well as male and female children. But I don't think that having that conversation implies an assumption that any sort of education is wasted. I understand that this discourse it out there but there is no reason why we have to go there (or why I have to go there







)

Personally I am in a field that you can't return to- but I don't feel like choosing to leave would be "wasting" anything. Right now I don't have that chose b/c I am the sole support for my son and I. When dp and I, um, merge incomes (make it official, baby!!), this might change. I'd LOVE to SAH with my son and any other kids- I wouldn't feel like I was wasting anything......but I would **ABSOLUTELY** be really, really pissed at a world that makes me chose b/c professions are often set up in an androcentric (male-centered, male-normed) way. I'm interested in JOINING with other mamas to fight the system- I don't want to fight other mamas though......JHMO


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## AJP (Apr 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
(and work only counts if it is a "profession"). I don't know how to break that identification.

Get a chip on your shoulder!







Works for me.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilhomegrownmama*
I'm interested in JOINING with other mamas to fight the system- I don't want to fight other mamas though......JHMO

Divide and conquer is how the patriarchy replicates itself generation after generation. Every woman I know completely torn up about the woh and sah "choice," but this ambivalence quickly turns to defensivness.

I liked the rest of your post too.


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## Stacymom (Jul 7, 2002)

To bring up another side of this topic...

When I got married, I was a few weeks away from getting my Bachelor's degree. I was thinking about pursuing a Master's degree, and was getting things in oreder to applay and audition and thing like that. My dh-to-be was so supportive of what I wanted to do, and was willing to work and put me through school so that I could pursue my dreams, but then expected me to work and put him through school when I was finished. We discussed it a lot, and I came to realize gradually that what I wanted most, more than a master's degree, more than that whole experience, was to be a mom, and that I didn't want to postpone that dream the seven or eight years that it would take for both of us to have the degrees we would need to support a family. I am lucky in that I have lots of opportunities in my field that are ongoing, and I have a part time job that would let me go full time at the drop of a hat. I guess my point is that I made an educated decision to stay at home with my children, and I take my parenting very seriously. I read and research, and I try to make educated and informed decisions about how to raise my children.

I live in an area where staying at home is pretty common. Unfortunately, the attitude of "I don't have to be educated, think for myself, or develop any skills or abilities because I just want to get married and have a family" is also very widespread. It is this type of woman that I see depressed and unfulfilled so often, because they have no sense of who they are outside of motherhood. If there is a legacy that I really want to pass on to my daughters in this area it is that they need to develop themselves and not wait for a husband or children to come along to bring fulfillment.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

My 3yo and I had a talk about this, and she decided she wanted to be a doctor AND a mommy. Why not? I think she can be whatever she wants. I kinda hope she'll work at least p/t so I can watch her babies.









I have a degree and did have a promising career before kids. I don't think it's a waste at all. College taught me a lot both through education and through my experiences in life at that time. If I ever have to return to work (by choice, or something happens to dh) I may need some training but that degree looks pretty good on my resume.

Darshani


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I didn't have an established career before dd was born.
I don't know if I will be able to get into the field I was interested in at the age I will be when dd leaves the nest. I think being a SAHM was the right choice at the time.
I'm not sure what impression my being a SAHM will leave with my dd. I hope she feels good about my choice and feels it was valuable.
I think sometimes I feel that I don't have much of an identity outside of wife, mother, and daughter. My mom was a SAHM until I was in high school. I think my Dad made her feel/seem less valuable because she wasn't bringing in a paycheck and then later because she was only working part-time. I think that attitude has made me feel unconciously that the person with the paycheck is more important. It is hard to shake that.


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## wawap (Jun 28, 2004)

Ok - I will say that I am a WOHM with three masters (never expected to become a mommy & that's why I did such a silly thing as spend waaaay too much on an education). With that preface, I will say that I would give anything, absolutely anything to be able to give it all up. I would do it in one, single heartbeat to be able to be home with DS.

There is no way my education would be "wasted" (or whatever). If only I could win the lottery so I could tell the student loan people what they can do with my payoff figure!

My mother raised us (we were 4 girls) to think that we would always work no matter what. I am the only one with a DC. None of my sisters want to be moms. It's a total reaction against my mom's life & her constantly telling us we should have a career and NOT be a SAHM like her... She was a SAHM and gave her life to us - carpool, three schools at once, dancing lessons, sports, dinner with 1 meat + 1 starch + 1 green veggie + 1 non-green veggie, clean laundry and house - everything organized to a "T" - everything happy, secure and perfect. Except for her after my father took off... No one would hire her - she even went back and got a degree at a community college and nothing. No one would hire a late 50s lady to do anything. I never understood her wanting to do this UNTIL I became a mother. It was perfectly clear then. Nothing else matters but my son. Nothing.

Why did she give up her career? Because she was the daughter of a working mom and it was her reaction to that lifestyle...

It's insane. Do we value families or do we NOT? I think not.

Oh well - just rambling... Hope no one is offended.

Laura


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## Pigpen (Dec 12, 2002)

I keep hearing this..."my mom worked, so I don't want to" or "my mom didn't work, so I wanted to". And come to think of it, I was a latch key kid and I don't want that for my kids if at all possible. It is obvious that the standard work model needs to change. There needs to be more flexibility so that idealy if both parents want to work part time in their field, they can. Then one parent can always be home with the children, no need for daycare. I for one would take advantage of that kind of situation, to work part time (when my dd is older).


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## Al Dente (Jan 8, 2004)

I'm







at many of the points here. I never believed I could throw away a career I'd worked most of my life to attain. But I look at my sweet son and don't have one regret at walking away. I'm lucky though...I can pick up where I left off, should I ever want to. And I think someday I will want to. I watched my mom lose herself in her kids for 35 years, and now, at 67, she's going back to school to finally do something for herself.

and







T candiland, I'm







at your sig line. :LOL


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## Indigomama (Dec 26, 2001)

absolutely love this thread.

So many people brought up so many posts.

I never ever imagined when I was young that being a grown woman with so many choices would be so hard - for me (just me I'm talking about) they all seem less than perfect.

The 40 hour work week is hard enough - it seems like a myth.

When I was a sahm...dh had to work 60 + hours to make ends meet. That sucked... big time. We both work - l~ 40 but then have to balance dc and the such. Expectations in most careers is to put in so much time, irregardless of your situation (one income, two, single, married, with kids). I think that it's impact is more than just on the family - also in communities. When did work become the only thing we wanted to be known for? What we need is the educated singles to revolt!


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## Czen:) (Jul 31, 2002)

Question for all of you: Just what career is the kind that you can take a period of years off and come back too?

-this question comes from a SAHM who left the computer support field four years ago and cannot even dream of going back! We're still planning one more baby so it will be at least 10 years before we're willing to consider it.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Another one here who is planning on taking out huge loans to graduate, then waste her education...:LOL

I'm still an undergrad, but really starting to wonder if I am just kidding myself. I take my classes online to stay home, but some of the required classes are not offered online and the professors won't let me substitute others, even after hearing of my responsibilities to my children. When I told them I do not use daycares or babysitters, their answers were that I need to start doing that.







One of them suggested I just drop out.







So I may not even be able to get a BA, and I'm taking out all these loans every term so I can afford to live in a place with 4 bedrooms and a yard so the kids can have room to run! I'll only have 2 years after graduation before I have to start paying these loans off.

Other people just make the assumption that the kids are going to be in school in a few years and then I can work or take more classes. That's not necessarily true. If we can't afford a private school on one parent's income, then I want to homeschool. And even if they do go to some kind of school, I want to help out in the classroom and remain available to them at all times. I want them to come home to a parent when the school day is over, and if they get sick and need to come home in the middle of the day I want to be there. So I may not be able to work until they are old enough to stay home alone. (High school age?)

I was hoping to get into a graduate program in clinical psychology....don't know how feasible that is...especially since I'll probably have no work experience. I haven't had a paying job since I was pg with #1. I pick up a little volunteer work when I can, but it doesn't use nearly enough of my skills. It wouldn't really impress anyone.

So I'm really conflicted a lot, wondering if I made the right choice. Sure, my girls will always have a parent around, but it will be a parent who has several thousand dollars of loans to pay off and not much hope of using her skills and education to find work to pay those loans.

I feel like being a SAHM isn't something I really want to do, I'm just doing it because I know it's right, and because I believe a parent should make sacrifices. But I wonder if I will just be especially resentful about it later on.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

I don't feel that I have wasted my education by becoming a sahm. I'm doing exactly what I want to do right now, and I feel that I'm using my education to do it. I don't really mind that it'll be harder for me to go back to work when it's time. I do understand that some careers are harder to return to than others and I do understand that for many women the available choices when becoming a mother are frustrating. Maybe if our culture valued children more, caring for children would be valued more and more employers would be willing to be flexible and to create more family friendly environments. I don't think things will change otherwise.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I just got an e-mail from one of my professors, saying I will be superior in the helping profession someday. :LOL Normally, this would be a good thing, but...

Why couldn't he have said "You're kind of a doof, and I think you should just consider being a houeswife."







:


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

This is the thing. I totally respect any woman who feels that being a SAHM is the best and highest calling she could have, that she isn't wasting her education or throwing away her career to stay at home, etc. I made the decision to leave my dream job after 6 weeks back at work when ds was 5 months old, because I believed raising my son was more important than my job.

But as long as we hold motherhood up to this exalted idea - that being a SAHP is the highest and best calling, that education is never wasted, etc. then the idea of womanly and motherly self-sacrifice continues to reign supreme and NOTHING HAS TO CHANGE in the way we do business and government in this country, giving lip service to motherhood but doing JACK to support mothers, enable them to be mothers AND have careers, to enable them to be mothers AND have financial security.

So it is OK for me to say that I feel frustrated and trapped, that I feel that I am having to make choices between financial security and using my career and my (very expensive, very prestigious) education and being the parent I want to be. It is OK for me to say that I love being a mom, but it is not the only thing I want to do with my life, and that I am angry that the professional world WILL hold it against me when I try to get back into my field for taking time off to raise my kids.

I am not trying to invalidate anyone's choices or feelings - just trying to point out that for myself and for this society we live in, I don't think I should HAVE to choose between contributing to society by raising my children well and contributing to society by being a public interest environmental attorney. Both are important and I'm good at both.


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## insahmniak (Aug 16, 2003)

I think I really understand your point, Quirky, and I totally agree. In a matriarchal society...(oops. Tangent. Anywho...)

Can you give me an idea of what your options would be in your ideal world? I'd like to hear more details. How can we not "punish" women who take the time to raise their children? What would that look like?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

One thing that would help is if childcare counted as "real work." If a woman who currently is a teacher of special-needs kids applies for more work doing the same, she has experience and may get hired. But if a woman who is a SAHM to a special-needs child applies for the same work, she has "no experience." That's one thing that should change; this notion that "it doesn't count" when you do it for your own family.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ohmtaretu*
I think I really understand your point, Quirky, and I totally agree. In a matriarchal society...(oops. Tangent. Anywho...)

Can you give me an idea of what your options would be in your ideal world? I'd like to hear more details. How can we not "punish" women who take the time to raise their children? What would that look like?

Here's one idea. many people partner up with people in thier same feild. Why can't two lawyers share one partner track position. Two partnered professors share one tenure track posion. The work that the firm or comapny would get would be the same (50-60 hours of work a week), but two people woudl be doing it.

A university or law firm could offer the same to two women each hired with 1/2 the salary and work load but both on tenure track and able, when thier kids are grown to to compete for full tenure track positions because they never took 8 years off.

Other options would include dropping the 50-60 hour work week expectation for most professions, hiring more people - a lot of that 50-60 hours is inefficiant face-time anyway so it isn't like the hospital or firm would have to hire 1/3rd more people to cover the hours loss. Afterall, 50-60 hour work weeks are as bad for men as for women.

Allowing children into professional spaces is anoterh option. Children would have differnt expectations on thier behavior, of course (but childhood behavior is a cultural invention anyway - kids in differnt cultures behave very differntly depending on expectations of that culture). Teh segregation of kids in our society is unnec, in my opinion.

I'm sure others have ideas.

My pet peeve is - well at least women today have choices. A choice between death and dismemberment/disfigurment is not much of a choice and neither is a choice between kids and career. (hows that for hyperbole







)


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Something else that would help is if part-time workers could get benefits. A lot of people go back to work full time so they can keep their benefits.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

And more ideas....what about guaranteed paid parental leave for a decent amount of time (a year, say) like Canada and the Scandinavian countries have?

What about high-quality on-site daycares so that you can nurse or visit your kids during the day?

What about more support for part-time work with benefits, telecommuting, flex time?

What about Social Security credit for staying home with your kids rather than assuming that the husband's Social Security will cover both? Assuming SS will even be around when it's retirement time.

What about working hours and vacations that coincide with school hours? What about more leave, for that matter, as well as leave that can be taken for any reason at any time without having to designate it "vacation" or "sick" leave?

And then there's changing the whole mindset that the forty to sixty hour workweek is normal, that the best employees never take vacation, that they never are out of the work force for any significant period....

I'm sure there's more ideas out there, these are just a few.


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## moma justice (Aug 16, 2003)

sorry for the typos
love this thread
such a hot topic in my family
what i learned:
pick a career that has good benifts and you can obtain a reasonably piad postion with just a BA
i became a school teacher
yes i love kids
but i picked my career thinking the above and that it would be feesable to be a single mom and do it or be an idela job for a mom with school aged kids

too bad i realized the public school system is the devil and i would never send my child through nor will i be able to go back and enforce the gov's will on groups of needy children again
any way
atleast with my "career" i feel confident about homeschooling
i can tutor, child care, what ever from my home as a SAHM
and i can even someday (BIG DREAM







maybe help build a real community school for my children

and i agree with the momma who feels kick ass about her life and her WORK and what she is teaching her daughter by doing it all....

i too volunteer alot and participate deeply and thoughtfuly in my community with my dd by my side soaking it all up.

but i too owe a lot of $$$ in loans (it will be about 20,000 by the time i pay it off.....which is alot of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for someone who makes about 100$ a month)
just today i thought holy shit, my dh will end up paying for my college?
weird!
but i did have a TON of fun, it was actually priceless...not the classroom stuff, but the coming of age stuff

furhtermore (this is something i have to RE EXPLAIN to MIL toooooo often)
as a public school teacher with less than 5 years in the system, i would not make enough money to pay for childcare and then all the little other stuff that adds up when you are a mother and work outside the home....like would i ever cook again? gas and insurance? clothes to wear to work? etc etc
anyway as a public school teacher, after all that , i figured i would bring home a bout 2 $ an hour
totally worth my daughter's spiritual and emotional well being?
no f-ing way!
(sorry to any WOHM's, i did not mean to say your kids are not going to be spiritualy whole because you did not stay at home with them, i just know mine would not be......they need me.) (well one needs me now, and the others will need me when they get here! LOL)


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## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
Something else that would help is if part-time workers could get benefits. A lot of people go back to work full time so they can keep their benefits.


AMEN! I love my career, but wish I could work part time rather than full time.
But if I did, then DS and I wouldn't have health insurance.

So, FT it is...


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## Milky Way (Sep 17, 2004)

I wonder, if as already brought up, there is a relationship between the my mom worked so I'm not going to or my mom didn't work so i'm going to. My mom worked for years before she had me and well that was 23 years ago and my mom is now 49. She has four children and has never even had a part time job. She is SO unhappy and just feeling usless right now because all of us except my sister have moved out. My mom is struggling to the point she takes anitdeppressnts. I got her a puppy in March which has helped give her something to do, that dog can do alot of tricks now hehe. She has applied for jobs a million times but her age and lack of experiance are killing her no one will even look at her application. heck she can't wait for my brothers to have kids so she can watch them. I think seeing her this unhappy has really effected me. I know I liked having her home when I was little but I'm not sure it was worth it for her now that I look back, she was so lonely and she would yell at my dad about him always working and never being there. It really makes me sad for her and makes me feel guilty that she stayed home.. I 'm not be critical of those who stay home, I'm just telling my moms story. As for myself although my husband and I don't plan on having kids but if I ever did I could not personally stay home after seeing what it did not my mom. I love my job and for me it would not be the right choice after all the education I have plus I'd never be able to re-enter the work force in the same field. But I'm sure those who do stay home love it and their happy and thats wonderful for them.


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## mommaluv321 (Aug 14, 2004)

I was just lurking when I read moma justice's post....you freakin rock!! I totally agree w/ every thing you said!!I've tried to explain it that way to ppl and they just stand there and look at me like I'm crazy and say stuff like "how can you just sit at home all day?"







Just cause' Im a sahm doesn't mean I STAY AT HOME!! I mean, geez ppl! It's like the whole concept is completly lost on them....kinda' like BFing...any way sorry, small but helpful vent


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## Curious (Jan 4, 2002)

I had a great high power career but I always knew that if I had a child, I would want to spend the majority of my time being a mother.

My work has allowed me to have an office downtstairs from my home and work on a schedule that allows me to maintain my skills, and have lots of time with Dd (never enough for her, of course).

Leaving for my office (all the way downstairs) was terrible until she hit 20 months, and suddenly reading with Grandma was too much fun to leave even to tell me goodbye.

Dd has seen me do my work, lecture, consult, write, go off in a taxi all dressed up to big meetings. She has seen me warmly greeted by people at conferences, and asked my advice by many of them. She has seen me hold the rapt attention of large audiences and be applauded by them.

I think it's valuable for Dd to see that I am valued by other people for things that I do out in the world. She can learn that she can make her own way in the world and never need to depend on anyone. But she also sees me take everything I have and put our homelife first, so she can see how priorities are established. When I put homelife/Dd first, that means first in a list of priorities, not the only thing.

Sometimes a little time apart is helpful. Like if she's havieng some behavioral issue or other, when I'm done with work sometimes I have some great revelation on how to deal with it. I feel like I wouldn't get that if I never left the trenches.

Dd loves to play Mommy, she also imitates me at my work, which she loves. It's really fun now that she can come to my office and feel like a part of things. I have a friend whose 11 year old daughter attends conferences with her - her professional life has served to keep her in touch with her daughter.

Doing it all this way has been tough, but it's a great balance for us.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Curious, that sounds so ideal. What career are you in?


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## sparklemom (Dec 11, 2001)

I have the *highest* regard for gentle, loving and patient stay at home moms. They're a very rare breed in our society, misunderstood and certainly not appreciated. To me, there is nothing more empowering and honorable than nurturing your children. It's often hard, selfless work, yet nothing is more important or ultimately fulfilling in life. There are no people lying on their death beds regretting having not spent more time in the office or participating in the rat race of our society.
I'm especially saddened when I see fellow women who buy into the holiness of an excelling career/education over motherhood. They seem to see motherhood as a demotion, almost as manual labor that really anyone could do. I'm often asked "so what do you _DO_ all day?" or told "oh, you're so lucky you get to _sit_ at home all day."
Trying to combine the work force with family life compromises both. In my opinion it really is an either/or deal, that is if you really want to give yourself fully. If our society held a realistic deserved high regard for what being a loving parent in our society entails then maybe more women would be more deliberate in their career and academic choices.
I also applaud moma justice's post!!! Like her, I chose to get an education degree with the foresight that when I became a mother I would be able to put my children first. Also like her, after having worked in the school system there's NO WAY I'm subjecting my dc to it...so now I'm a sahm homeschooling mom.
It's okay to not enjoy aspects of motherhood....the isolation and the tremendous amount of patience and energy required send many over the edge quickly...but if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen and don't have children. And if you just didn't know what you were getting yourself into, as so many people in our society don't, stick it out, do it right and do it fully and you won't regret it. Your previous experiences, academic and career achievements were all great building blocks to your ultimate promotion...motherhood.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Sparklemom, that was just beautiful.

(ETA that I too am unsure what you meant by "if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen and don't have children". I would be interested to know. I agreed with everything else you said)


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## proudmamanow (Aug 12, 2003)

This is a very thought-provoking thread. Thanks to the OP for putting these questions on the table. And thanks to all the PPs for their thoughtful and caring reflections.

These issues have been on my mind a lot lately, as I work FT and am pregnant with my first baby, due in April. I am very very fortunate in that I will have 1 year of fully paid maternity leave when this baby is born. Many, many of my colleagues who have taken advantage of this have since returned to work full time. Some of them wish they were still at home, others are happy to be back at work and enjoying their careers. I am also fortunate in that my job offers me an additional 4 years unpaid leave after the 1st year so that I can take care of my kids. So no problem, right? Except that I desperately want to change jobs & want to go back to school & get my PhD in order to do this. I want my work to have much more meaning & satisfaction than it does right now.

I'm different than some of the PPs in that my mom did work the whole time I was growing up, and I still think this is something that I could and would want to do. She only had 3 months off with me, and even less with my younger sister. And yet she was & continues to be the most incredible role model for me. She is a university professor, very dedicated, LOVES her work & doesn't want to retire although she is nearing that age. She really feels that she makes a difference with her work, and I believe it. And I think the world would be a poorer place without her contribution to it. At the same time, when I was growing up I felt like my sister and I were her #1 priorities, ALL THE TIME. I always felt loved, cherished & cared for, and felt that she was there for all my important events; she cooked our meals, sewed our hallowe'en costumes, hosted our birthday parties, drove us to school & often picked us up too. I should add that she divorced my father when I was 4 years old and they shared custody of us, but she had us with her 75% of the time. We were both bf for many years (I still remember bf after my sister was born when I was 3.5), and in many ways my mom was an AP of her era.

Now that I am contemplating a similar life (with the career and kids, NOT the divorce ), I find myself wondering a bit what she sacrificed or if it really was as great as she always says it was, and if I am completely crazy to think that I could do this too. But I also wonder if I stick with my current job, take the leave, and then end up at 40 doing something I hate, is that really the best choice for my family?

Phew! This is a novel, so thanks to those who made it this far. Thanks for letting me think out loud too&#8230;.


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## boomingranny (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sparklemom*
It's okay to not enjoy aspects of motherhood....the isolation and the tremendous amount of patience and energy required send many over the edge quickly...but if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen and don't have children. And if you just didn't know what you were getting yourself into, as so many people in our society don't, stick it out, do it right and do it fully and you won't regret it. Your previous experiences, academic and career achievements were all great building blocks to your ultimate promotion...motherhood.

Would you please elaborate? Does this mean that if you intend to work and have kids then you "shouldn't" have any kids at all?


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I've been out at work and my dh has been the SAHP. Now we want to switch. I don't know if he will be able to get a good FT job at this point. I'll probably have to do something part time. It's really hard to figure out how we will make ends meet. I am thinking about a second career (or third? who knows--another field, I mean!)

The truth is that there are no jobs that are 100% family friendly. There is always someone who thinks that women who work shouldn't have children.

Now it's quite annoying when people voice the opinion that women who have children shouldn't work, but it's also obvious that working is a really great way to pay for the little things that children need, like food, clothing, and shelter. So most people won't say, "Hey, you single moms, you moms whose partners don't work, stay home already!" But employers aren't shy about saying, "You need to work on your work-life balance" when they mean "why are you still on that breastpump after all these months."

Or worse.

anyway I'm thinking about what I can do from home to bring in a little moola while still being so effective as a mommy. Maybe I'll be doing some editing during the naps, instead of fluffing around here.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

I think it stinks that women, at least in the US can't win. You're damned if you work, and you're damned if you stay home. What really chaps my you-know-what though is when people use language that implies that parenting is a demeaning waste of talent, and that any woman worth her salt wouldn't lower herself to invest her time in raising kids or that combining working outside the home and raising kids should be just soooo easy because after all, parenting is just another household chore that takes no thought, no talent, no energy.

I hate hearing how women have been made to feel that if they stay home with their kids full time (or even part time) that they're wasting their education and talent. I hate hearing how working moms are told to choose between their jobs and their kids, because taking a day off to take a sick child to the doctor just isn't important.

Parenting is important. Children are important. Raising children of character takes time and talent and committment. It's not just another chore. It's a relationship. Children are not just pets, they are thinking feeling human beings-and they are literally the future of our nation, of our species. Until society values children and recognizes the challenges and importance of parenting we will continue to have all these struggles.

Yes, in part it's a feminist issue. But I don't like how so many feminists frame it as an issue of "why do women have to be the ones to raise kids?" Women ought to have equal opportunity in the workplace. Definitely. But the bigger issue for me is that I want *parenting* to be valued rather than seen as drudgery women shouldn't be automatically subjected to. I want children to be valued. I want the parent-child relationship to be valued. I want the complexities of parenting to be recognized and the simplistic view of mothering that's so pervasive to disappear. I want women to feel free to talk about the joys of motherhood, and I want women to be free to say that sometimes they hate it without being judged. I want women to stop judging each other. I want men to understand that their role as parents are just as important so that they will be more involved and moms can share the responsibilities. I want some actual community support for single moms, because parenting without a partner is so much more difficult.

In my dream world, if people actually value children and value the relationship needed to raise healthy successful children then the policies we need to support families in all their varieties would follow. Clearly my dream world is a happy and unrealistic place.









(I think I went way OT







: )


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## sparklemom (Dec 11, 2001)

sledg, *THAT* was just beautiful!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sparklemom*
I'm especially saddened when I see fellow women who buy into the holiness of an excelling career/education over motherhood. They seem to see motherhood as a demotion, almost as manual labor that really anyone could do. I'm often asked "so what do you _DO_ all day?" or told "oh, you're so lucky you get to _sit_ at home all day."

I don't think that's what *this* thread is about. Who do you see here elevating work over parenthood? (Although it is interesting that you focus on motherhood rather than parenthood....there's that whole thing that only mothers can and should be the SAHP and only mothers can and must sacrifice their careers for their children - exactly what this thread started off about.)

Quote:

Trying to combine the work force with family life compromises both. In my opinion it really is an either/or deal, that is if you really want to give yourself fully. If our society held a realistic deserved high regard for what being a loving parent in our society entails then maybe more women would be more deliberate in their career and academic choices.
So, again, fathers should work and mothers should stay at home? And women should forego educational opportunities or make choices that are compatible with staying home full-time? How about if society held a realistic deserved high regard for what being a loving parent entails, then SOCIETY would do some accomodating to enable women to be both good parents and have fulfilling careers? Why should women do all the accomodating and all the sacrificing?

Quote:

...but if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen and don't have children. And if you just didn't know what you were getting yourself into, as so many people in our society don't, stick it out, do it right and do it fully and you won't regret it. Your previous experiences, academic and career achievements were all great building blocks to your ultimate promotion...motherhood.
OK, I don't think this is beautiful at all. I think it is crap. You are honestly saying that women who can't or don't want to stay home full time shouldn't have children? What about single moms? What about widows? What about divorced moms? What about those of us who love being moms but also love being lawyers, doctors, engineers, teachers, businesspeople, whatever?

I am working to protect the environment that your kids live in...should I just stop that so I can stay at home and raise my kids and let your kids, and all society's kids, hope that some qualified man will take my place?

I sure hope your life works out so that you don't have to experience the fall off that high horse you're sitting on and *gasp* have to work to support your family. How will you get out of the kitchen then?

I personally didn't need 3 graduate degrees from Ivy League schools to act as building blocks for my "ultimate promotion" to being a mom. I needed them to do what I wanted to do in the world and with my life. I love love love being a mom but it is not my "ultimate promotion" and my ultimate career goal. It is the most important thing I am doing right now but it is not the only thing and it is not all I want out of life. I refuse to be sidelined and denied the opportunity to do good in the world and to make a difference because my education and experience only suit me for motherhood, not for being a kick ass public interest attorney.

This kind of attitude just reinforces the whole problem we face as a society - that as long as women are expected to quit their jobs and raise their kids, to choose lower-paying fields that allow part-time work, to assume total responsibility for raising children - we will never build a society where parenting, not just mothering, is respected and supported, where the contributions of women as well as men to fields outside of parenting are valued and enabled.


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## sparklemom (Dec 11, 2001)

I rather expected my post would ruffle some fluffy feathers. Surprised it took so long, and glad in the meantime I was actually given some props for it.
Well Quirky, we just have to agree to disagree. Clearly we're both passionate, but from separate angles.
To me there is _*nothing*_ in this life more important, more profound or empowering than a mother _compassionately_ devoting herself to mothering her children. There is literally _nothing_ the world or the future could better benefit from.
I don't see choosing motherhood as "sacraficing" anything,.. career, education or free time. I see it as a choice, priviledge, honor and fundamental responsibility.
I use the term "motherhood" because to me there is a big difference, by nature, between a mother and a father. Both roles are of utmost importance, but they are indeed naturally different.
I can't help it that our society is obsessed with money and convenience. Clearly children are by no means convenient and I have certainly seen no money come my way for actually raising my own children. But I put top priority on putting the true needs of my family first. The rest is just trivial in the scope of life. And this very committment is what drives me through the good and the bad.


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## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quirky, now THAT was beautiful!

The thought of having another person support me financially while I take care of ds full time scares me, quite frankly. I think my dh is the most wonderful man in the whole wide world, but circumstances change. Just ask my Mom (who stayed home) who was divorced after 20 years of marriage, and left to raise two children without the benefit of a college education or a career, or child support for that matter.

Also, how does the father of your children fit into your scenario, sparklemom?
Turns out my ds is an AMAZING caregiver, and he loves being with ds as much as he possibly can. If I made more $$, he'd happily give up his work for a while. The caregiving part of him would remain unexplored if I were the full time caregiver. Having a loving, present, nearly full time dad is the best possible thing for my ds.


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## sparklemom (Dec 11, 2001)

My dh and I are partners in the truest sense. The money he brings home is no more "his" than the children I care for while he is gone are just "mine." We have a family unit, one intity. I chose him as a husband and father of my children specifically because of his personal qualities that make him so naturally wonderful in these roles. I chose a wonderful husband and finished my college education as "insurance" for providing for my future children.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sparklemom*
To me there is _*nothing*_ in this life more important, more profound or empowering than a mother _compassionately_ devoting herself to mothering her children. There is literally _nothing_ the world or the future could better benefit from.
I don't see choosing motherhood as "sacraficing" anything,.. career, education or free time. I see it as a choice, priviledge, honor and fundamental responsibility.
I use the term "motherhood" because to me there is a big difference, by nature, between a mother and a father. Both roles are of utmost importance, but they are indeed naturally different.
I can't help it that our society is obsessed with money and convenience. Clearly children are by no means convenient and I have certainly seen no money come my way for actually raising my own children. But I put top priority on putting the true needs of my family first. The rest is just trivial in the scope of life. And this very committment is what drives me through the good and the bad.


What I think you don't understand is that for many women thier careers are their life and this life is not about money but about love - I LOVE what I do). But I also love and would be lost without my children - they are my life too. So I give up my love and my life (my career) for them because they are more important than me. And yes, raising children in full of joy. Ok, I'm fine with it. But what about my daughters having to do the same thing?! It tears my heart out thinking that they will only have TOPS ten years to do what they love before they too have to give it up for thier children (who they also love) just because our society can't come up with real choices or options.

See. It isn't motherhood or money - that's not nec. the choice women are
making. Most people don't choose thier profession based on salary. If it was just a choice bwteen motherhood or money, this thread would not exisist and all families would have a parent stay home if they could afford it.

For many women who love and are fullfilled by thier careers, motherhood (something they would be terribly unhappy without) means that they will be terribly unhappy without their career (which isn't about money but is about something they love and are fullfilled by). No win and no "choice" at all. For many mothers (me), motherhood will be a sacrifice. I am giving up something I LOVE and can't go back to for my children (without whom I wouldn't be happy either).


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Yep, believe me, it is NOT about money or convenience. I do what I do because I passionately believe that what I am doing is helping humanity by helping save the planet we live on. We're not going to save it from home just by doing our part by recycling.







: I don't think my work is trivial. I can't think of much more that's more important.

I also think the attitude that mothers are the more important parent than fathers devalues men and their parenting abilities, not to mention enables society to continue on taking advantage of women and failing to support parenthood overall.

Finally, what sparklemom's last post illustrates is exactly what mamawanabe has been saying - that when motherhood is the sine qua non of womanhood, then our daughters are going to face the same dilemmas we have. They can have fulfilling careers - until it's time to give them all up for the "ultimate promotion" of stay-at-home motherhood.

Just curious, sparklemom, will your support your daughter if she wants to be a mom and work at the same time? Or will you tell her she shouldn't have kids if she's going to be that selfish? What about your son? If he wants to be a SAHD and his wife wants to work, will you tell him to get the heck out of the house, a woman's place is in the home and a man's place is working to support his family?


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Excellent post Quirky.

In any case, i am the mom of three great kids. Kids who will that they are happy I am their mom. Yes, yes, its true! Kids of working moms are indeed _happy!_

Quote:

but if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen and don't have children.
_Nice._

My feathers arent fluffy either.


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Reading this thread has made me realize that I'm lucky to have not gotten into a career before having kids. I went to college, got a BA in Geography, went to massage therapy school, etc. Well, I worked full-time as a massage therapist for several years and got completely burnt out. I started taking classes to go to nursing school. Then I got pregnant. I realized that I didn't want to be a nurse. It would take me away from my family too much. At that point, I decided to become a SAHM. When my kids are school-aged, I think I will be a substitute teacher. All you need is a bachelor's degree and a little training. I will be able to choose the days I want to work and will be able to stay with my children when they're sick. I'll also be home any day they don't have school. It's really the only thing that I think will work for me.

I always feared that I was letting my parents down because I chose to SAH. They did pay for my college, after all. I asked them once and they said they were very happy when I decided to stay home. I have often wondered if maybe I'll be a bit disappointed if dd decides to SAH. I have such high hopes for her, like she'll change the world or something. Of course, I'm sure I would be very happy if she did decide to SAH. Better yet, she can live close to me and she can work and I'll babysit my grandchildren!


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
I am sacrificing all those years of schooling (7 years of graduate school) to be a mother to my daughters who, unless work changes, will have to sacrifice all their years of schooling and all thier career ambitions (many careers do not allow time off - university professor, partner track lawyer, etc) in order to mother thier kids.

I went all the way through school with top grades and graduated as the outstanding graduate of my program at university. I held several good jobs that I excelled at, and since my degree was in social work I also feel that I made a positive impact in many people's lives. I quit working when my daughter was born, and now I stay home with my two kids. Why is that a sacrifice? Is education only a means to the end of a "successful" career (however you define that)? I don't think so. I know that you only posted this because you are struggling with your own feelings, but I have to say that some of the comments you made sounded to me a lot like the people who ask me why I would "waste" myself as a SAHM when I have so many other qualifications. This attitude only serves to undermine the validity of raising children. Raising children is my chosen career, regardless of whether I am paid for it or not. I excel at it, and I am making a positive impact in other people's lives. To me it denigrates what I do to say I am sacrificing anything. This is a choice I have made. Your daughters will have the same freedom to make the choice, or to decide something else. Sometimes I feel like the women's movement went to far in that now choosing to stay home is not necessarily a valid choice. It's like now that women have the freedom to "have it all," something is wrong with those of us who don't want it all.

Quote:

Everytime I marvel at my daughter's talent or aptitude in something, I'll have to realize that she may only be able to pursue it until she has kids.
And why is this bad? Raising kids is a full-time responsibility. If your daughter's choice is to stay home full time, why is this something to regret?

Quote:

What do y'all think? I think we need to start SCREAMING about how work is still set up on a one-parent earner model which means that many careers require 60 hours of work and thus preclude mothering the way many of us want to mother.
Ok, I don't really have a clue as to what you mean here.









Namaste!


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
For many mothers (me), motherhood will be a sacrifice. I am giving up something I LOVE and can't go back to for my children (without whom I wouldn't be happy either).

In economic terms this is called the "opportunity cost" and every choice entails one. I am inclined to agree with Sparklemom (or whomever it was that said it) that if you try to combine two full-time vocations, both will suffer. I am NOT saying that I think working moms are bad moms to unhappy children, but I am saying that I don't think that it's necessary that all vocations be equally family-friendly. Some just aren't because they require a greater commitment in terms of time or passion than others. That's ok by me. I loved what I did as a social worker and I love what I do as a mom and I had to make a decision between them, and I did. I really don't see this as oppressive to women.

Quote:

do something meaningful with myself when my kids are older (
Ouch.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

no dharmamama, the problem isn't that raising kids isn't a real career (though it is certainly devalued by our society probably because it is associated with women and all work associated with women is devalued by society whether it is for money and/or involves a degree or not).

The problem is that the way many professional careers are set up, they don't allow for part-time work, job sharing, flex-time, bringing kids to work, or even 40 hour work weeks. The job system is still based on the idea that one parent is at home taking care of the house and kids and the other parent is thus free to work 50- 60 hour weeks Monday through Friday. Though this model hasn't been the norm for years, no one is challenging it because it is mostly women who suffer by it (women who must abandon thier career or take a role in thier career field that will never allow for advancement even after thier kids are grown, or try to do it all - which is near impossible). This is not a "choice." A choice would be real change in how careers are set up so that women could decide between being a sahm and mothering while continuing thier career. There is not this choice now; WOHM have an incredibly hard row to tow (near impossible in academia according to tenure statistics for women who have children).

I understand that mothering is devalued - it is a big problem. But I don't by that the devaluing of mothering has a causal relationship to the vauling of professional careers. I LOVE my job and my love of my job doesn't make me love mothering less just as my love of mothering doesn't diminish my desire to research and teach. Being forced to choose between my job and mothering because being a tenured college professor (and partner track lawer etc) requires 60 hour work weeks throughout your thirties is the problem. There were a lot of ideas in this thread earlier about how work could be arranged differntly so women could, if they choose, do both.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I am saying that I don't think that it's necessary that all vocations be equally family-friendly. Some just aren't because they require a greater commitment in terms of time or passion than others. That's ok by me. I loved what I did as a social worker and I love what I do as a mom and I had to make a decision between them, and I did. I really don't see this as oppressive to women.



No. There are ways that every career could be set up to allow women (who do the majority of parenting even in households where both parents work full-time) to be involved in a serious way when thier kids are young and require a lot of time or re-enter in a serious way when thier kids are older. We talked about lots of possibilities earlier in this thread.

It is a feminist issue because the reason careers are set up the way they are (no inherent reasons for them to be arranged this way) is because they were set up on the assumption that women wouldn't be doing this work and so issues of mothering wouldn't be a problem. The reason the ways these careers are set up isn't changing is because the only ones who suffer tangibly by it are women.

I don't know why you took offense at my worry about what i am going to do when, at 45 or 50, my kids are grown up and don't need much of my time and energy and I have no career possiblities and will face a lot of age-based prejudice in any attempt to start over in a new career. My sah grandmother felt so "lost" when her kids grew up that she started drinking heavily (it killed her). It is a big problem that lots of sahms face. Men often face the same thing twenty years later when they retire. My mom was a sahm, but she had us young, went to school when we were in high school, and started a career at 35 when we were about to start college, so she never was faced with that emptiness. Since I am not having kids will my early thirties and already have (or will have) a doctoral degree, her model (which worked out really well) can't be mine.


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## boomingranny (Dec 11, 2003)

I still wait for the clarification. I would like to know, Sparklemom, if you beleive that WOHM's shouldn't have had children if they knew beforehand that they were going to go back to work.

I'm all for change in the workplace. For my daughter I want her to choose and combine her talents in whichever way brings her joy. If she wants to be in a band and raise her kids, or be a veterinarian, or a lawyer, or a waitress - please let it be that the workplace will change enough so she can do both. There is no reason why it shouldn't and can't. Daddys can be functional parents too, lets not enable their perceived ineptitude.

Is it such a threat to those who choose to stay home that WOHM's children are just as well adjusted, healthy and happy?

Whatever floats your boat. We are all very different people with different personalities and styles, etc. If it suits you to stay home with the kids, fabulous, if you want to work and raise your kids, yipee!

Peace


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
I don't know why you took offense at my worry about what i am going to do when, at 45 or 50, my kids are grown up and don't need much of my time and energy and I have no career possiblities and will face a lot of age-based prejudice in any attempt to start over in a new career.

I should have quoted you more fully. You actually said, "I really can't not work at all for 8 years if I hope to do something meaningful with myself when my kids are older ..." To me that means you feel meaningfulness is tied up in having a career. Where does that leave someone like me, who has no plans to return to the working world, ever? I'm not offended, because I know you make your choices and I make mine, but I do think that sentiment reveals a lot about how women who don't want to have a career are thought of.

Namaste!


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## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

"For my daughter I want her to choose and combine her talents in whichever way brings her joy."

I want this for my son, too. If he decides to stay home with his kids, should he have any, his Daddy and I will be very proud!


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## boomingranny (Dec 11, 2003)

of course, but the post is about SAHM and daughters - no disrespect meant to parents with boys. 'twould be way cool.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I should have quoted you more fully. You actually said, "I really can't not work at all for 8 years if I hope to do something meaningful with myself when my kids are older ..." To me that means you feel meaningfulness is tied up in having a career. Where does that leave someone like me, who has no plans to return to the working world, ever? I'm not offended, because I know you make your choices and I make mine, but I do think that sentiment reveals a lot about how women who don't want to have a career are thought of.

Namaste!

No I meant exactly that when my kids are older and don't need me, I won't be able to re-enter my career (it doesn't allow for it). What will I do with my time and myself when I am still fairly young (50) but too old to start a new career because of ageism? I worry about suffocating my kids (calling them every night in thier college dorm etc). It isn't that raising kids isn't meaningful (most important thing parents, fathers and mothers alike, do) - it is that there is an endpoint to the time requirements of raising them. A lot of mothers face this. #1 complaint of MIL on thsi baord is overinvolvment in thier children's lives and inability to let go. I think one of the reasons for this is that a lot of owmen are at a loss of what to do with thier tiem and energy when their kids are grown. I worry very much about this for myself.

(course, I am a worrier by nature







)


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## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

I didn't perceive any disrespect, but I do think that we can't really have this discussion w/o talking about fathers and sons, too. One of the key points that has emerged involves the role of fathers in the sah equation. Our sons are (potential) future fathers, and the models we set for them will greately impact our daughters lives, imo. I'm thinking big picture here, not on the micro level.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I worry about this as well and I didn't even give up an important career to stay home, or an education, for that mater. For me, it was about doing something 'meaningful' in a creative sense. Right now, I have lots of friends doing amazing things and it's hard for me not to be envious of them and all the time they have to be involved in their art an careers. At the same time, I know that I wouldn't have traded my choice but life isn't that black and white.

I worry about the effects of my slow life at home with my child in terms of my development as an individual ~ both in creativity and career. I worry about having nothing other than kids to talk about as I get further and further out of touch with the world. I can't help but wonder what my life would have been like if I had children later, earlier or not at all.

This is a real issue for us because it's one of the main considerations of mine when I think of having a second child. I worry about myself if I'm in babyland for too long.

I suppose this is different for me though because my career was not formed yet when I had my child. So, for me, I don't actually *know* what I missed ~ strange. Honestly, I hadn't really considered ageism as an obstacle for me. Is this a greater issue depending on your field? Not that it should be an issue&#8230;I'm just wondering. I know DH has quite a bit of pressure with age because of some real or perceived prejudice within the technological field that he's in. I know from many people returning that staying 'edgy' while raising kids or taking any kind of break.

Yea, I guess I could go on and on. It's hard ~ I feel it too.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boomingranny*
Is it such a threat to those who choose to stay home that WOHM's children are just as well adjusted, healthy and happy?

Peace

I have often thought the same thing.


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

T Sorry to go OT, but Boomingranny I love your username! Beasties fan?


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## boomingranny (Dec 11, 2003)

in the house...my official "turning forty" nick. Scary to think they're my contemporaries!


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Quote:

in the house...my official "turning forty" nick. Scary to think they're my contemporaries!
:LOL :LOL


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## Curious (Jan 4, 2002)

I'm going back on topic here, especially because lots of issues have come up in this discussion, and for the sake of brevity (a relative term for this post), I want to state my responses to the question of the initial post.

It has been said on this thread that one cannot have a career, and be a mother, and be good at both. In fact, it's been stated that if one has both, one will be bad at both. And that if you have a career, that's your path in life and stay away from motherhood.

If I did not state sparklemom's post exactly, it's probably because I'm using my own words, because I felt that way for a long time. I headed straight for a career - much because I saw my mother suffer from lack of control over her own life, and I was determined to do differently. I felt that if I had a child, I woud want to put her first, and I couldn't do both. What a tragedy it would have been if I didn't try stretching my limits, because I'd never have had Dd.

I am a mother first, but also a physician. Professionally, I help a lot of people, and my empathy for others has increased since becoming a mother. Because of their contact with be better parents, both because of what they accomplish under my care, and because they have seen me with my daughter in a sling and have felt the vibe of attachment parenting. I'm the one some people bring their children to for help. I've made a lot of difference in a lot of families, and each one of them is making the world a better place.

And at the same time, I'm a darn good mom! My particular specialty in alternative gives me a great perspective on Dd that has done much to preserve my patience in frustrating times, and give me ideas on fostering her humanity.

What a sad thing to tell our daughters, that excelling at one excludes you from the other. Each thing I do enriches the other.

It has also been stated in this thread, and many others, that the problem is with society and the devaluing of motherhood by 'society.'

Who is society? Ladies (and Gentlemen), it's US. Waiting for some potbellied cigar smoking guys at a conference table to think up, legislate, and enforce changes? We can make the changes. They won't be big, they will be tiny. It will take generations. But if all we do is focus on raising our children, and pay no attention to the outside world (ie working in it), all we do is shift the burden of responsbility for change onto our children - without showing them by example how to excell in both family and professional responsbility.

Here's how it worked out for me, even though it was far from intentional. I entered a profession, and did plenty to pay my dues and advance to a senior level. Then I turned what everyone expected of me on it's ear. I went out worked independently, leaving colleagues quizzical. I accepted less pay in order to do things my way. This isn't just a woman taking a pay cut; Dh has done the same thing since Dd was born.

Since I've been on the professional scene awhile, seen as a go getter even after I slowed down, I'm well known and dare I say respected (some tell me I'm feared!). So I'm asked to be involved in policy making - and when I'm at a party and I know I have the ear of someone who thinks I'm worth listening to because of my profession, then I talk about what's dear to my heart. Nursing, homeschool - parenting. Sad as it is, they maybe didn't consider it important a minute ago, but when it comes from someone with professional stature, suddenly they see the importance. So I use my position to advance my personal agenda









We need to show our daughters (children) that family comes first, but we also have a responsibility to take on a little bit of doing what we can for the world. That's how it changes, one small act by one small act.

Women's voices are unfortunately very much excluded in molding the world. Who can change that? Women. Not women like Ms. Rice, either. Mothers have the best idea of what the world needs and need to speak up. The best way to speak up is to learn the language of the current world, just as a child needs to learn the language of their parents.

Getting a strong, conventional education has given me great power to navigate to where you I want to go. Having a professional life has enabled me to make contacts and understand the dynamics of change. Having achieved as I have, I'm entrusted with the ability to participate fully - from my rocking chair.

From my rocking chair, I can nurture my child, and also her world. And she can watch me and carry on the legacy. And maybe her grandchildren will live in a the world we dream of - that we made for them.


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## proudmamanow (Aug 12, 2003)

Curious,

your post articulates so beautifully what I was trying to convey about my own mom's experience and how I see her as a role model. thanks!


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Curious:







thank you very much


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Curious, well said.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Curious.. FABULOUS post!

I agree that women often do ourselves an injustice by assuming in all cases that we have to choose one over the other to fully dedicate ourselves to, or risk being terrible at both.

I stayed home for the first year of my children's lives, and went back to work part-time - a schedule that remains. I am only gone about 16 hours a week; the rest I work from home but ONLY when the kids are down for a nap or after bedtime.

The main reason I work is for financial security, and no I don't mean buying lots of expensive things and getting the latest BMW. I mean our future, our savings, retirement, college, etc. Knowing that dh could lose his job tomorrow and we'd still be OK.

I also work because I am committed to the nature of the work I do, having an impact on important public policy issues that I care about.

But it's true that another big reason why I work is for my children, especially my daughter. I do want to be a role model to her of someone who can be a loving, dedicated mama while having a successful career doing something I enjoy. I hate the idea that she might grow up thinking "why bother" with regard to pushing herself to excel in areas that interest her if she thinks being a good mother means she has to give it all up forever.


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## boomingranny (Dec 11, 2003)

absolutely fabuloso post - and I just wanted to add that for myself as well being a parent has augmented my work skills especially when it comes to listening, communicating and patience (all which I need since I train adults) and vice versa.

thanks


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I agree that *was* a wonderfully inspiring post, Curious. But, with respect, I have some concerns with what you said if it was a response to the original topic. Perhaps you were responding more to the entire thread, I don't know&#8230;these threads always seem to get into the WOHM/SAHM debate, which I see as unfortunate.

I guess my issue is in part about 'having it all' and how that expectation impacts us as mothers. That is at the root of this issue for me on an individual level. Can I stay home, earn an income, work on my self, create and be creative, travel, put up holiday decorations, cook, educate or participate in schooling, be an advocate, practice NFL&#8230;? No. You, (well, I) can't do everything and there are going to be some choices that conflict BUT I certainly don't think that having kids and a career is conflicting. In fact, I also believe that they can compliment, as you said.

That said, I don't think it's such a bad thing to deal with the fact that we can't do *everything* and to worry about how our choices influence our kids. Or to acknowledge that some things conflict or to validate the feelings of other mothers if they can't do everything they want or if their personal, professional and/or creative lives don't allow for that, yk?


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## carolsly (Oct 5, 2004)

I love all of these ideas, all the different experiences, and opinions. What a wonderful way to gain knowledge.

I truely believe that we all do what is best for our families. Wether it be working part time, full time, or working at home etc. We can gripe about society and people, but when it all boils down to it, we just doing what we need to do for ourselves and our families. We make sacrifices every day, but we do know that one day those will pay off with happy, healthy, well adjusted young men and women. I just really believe that I am creating this worlds tomorrow, wether I work inside the home or outside of it. Every mother is a working mother. I am a Stay at home mom and a student. My dh is in the Coast Guard and is enlisted (not a great income, but we survive). I was in The Coast Guard at the time my first child was born and had become a stay at home mom when we moved to Alaska. I have been on both sides of the coin.

Thank you very much for all of the ideas, feeling,and input.


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## MomInFlux (Oct 23, 2003)

I saw a news show a few months ago that addressed working mothers. It included a study of the most prominent women in New York City (evidenced by their marriage announcement in the society pages) 10 years after they got married. Apparently most of them had careers but had become SAHMs and the researcher was incredulous (and horrified). The researcher was an older black woman who had worked her whole life and had had to fight tooth and nail to be where she was and to have any respect for what she had accomplished and she was sure that the the trend of women staying home with their children was going to destroy all the advances women had made in education and the workplace. To counter her was a the (I think) head of the Harvard Business School (a man). His POV was that women were too large and valuable a class of worker to lose forever, and that schools and business MUST reconfigure their practices to accommodate women, whether it was true part time work, shared positions, an open invitation to return to the workforce after having children, etc. He had real ideas for how to make it work (he recommended a contract between a woman and her company that would allow her to return to her job up to 10 years after leaving it, for example).

That would be a start.

I have an interesting dynamic with my firm. I started with my firm before I had children and I've paid my dues. I regularly worked 60 hour weeks before I had my first child. My son was born on a Sunday, I worked a 53 hour week that ended the Friday before he was born, and I was back in the office to check on things on the Wednesday after he was born because he was born early (and I ended up working quite a bit for free during my maternity leave). For my second child, I worked up to 2:30 on the day my daugher was born and she was born at 3:00 (I'm a teleworker so I work at home and I also had a homebirth). I would NOT wish what I did on any working mama. Right now I've got an overwhelming schedule (I'm procrastinating right now) and I'm sacraficing vacation and family time to accommodate it. However, when push comes to shove, I've been able to put family first and been respected for that (recently a senior co-worker wanted to fly down to work with me and I felt confident saying "No, I've got tickets for A Day Out with Thomas".

I'm rambling - I apologize. What facilitates my ability to do the above is the amazing support system I have that I know most women do not. My DH is an extremely happy SAHD, and my mom also lives with us and helps with the kids. What is incredibly frustrating to me is that my firm holds me up as an example of what women can do within the company. Yes, I can have 2 children and work 40+ hour weeks and still be there for my kids, but most women can't do their 40+ hours of work from home and don't have 2 other adults in the house to help with the children, and don't have a SAH spouse who is supportive and makes dinner. The mothers I work with have husbands who work and they have to use outside childcare (which means leaving at a set time to pick up the children), but I'm held up as an example of what "working mamas can accomplish".

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
I guess my issue is in part about 'having it all' and how that expectation impacts us as mothers. That is at the root of this issue for me on an individual level. Can I stay home, earn an income, work on my self, create and be creative, travel, put up holiday decorations, cook, educate or participate in schooling, be an advocate, practice NFL&#8230;? No. You, (well, I) can't do everything and there are going to be some choices that conflict BUT I certainly don't think that having kids and a career is conflicting. In fact, I also believe that they can compliment, as you said.

This really jumped out at me. I know I am an exception, but I CAN stay home, earn an income, work on myself (I'm working on selecting a fiddle so that I can learn to play), create and be creative (I'm making most Christmas gifts this year), travel (well, somewhat), put up holiday decorations, cook (special stuff; DH is the primary family chef), be an advocate (this takes a hit), practice NFL (I'm working on this). I can be a strong role model for my both my children that they can do anything. I think both kids will see that they can work for pay (me) or work by raising their own children (DH) and that both have value.

But the mama-work model needs reworking. Bad.


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## Curious (Jan 4, 2002)

MomInFlux's post brings to my attention that I left out a critical part of my sucess: HELP.

I, too, have great support. My healthy 81 year old mother lives across the street. My office staff (3 part timers) knew when they hired on that some of the job involves helping me. One does help in the kitchen once a week, which enables me to cook most of the meals myself, according to my rather strict standards. And of course there is Dh, who shares my view of the order of things.

Sure I've had my blunders. My administrative work is always lagging. This is the area where I've made the most errors. We've had lots of trips to the bank to cover a check I wrote while I wasn't thinking, they know me well. My office manager knows I'm spread thin, and she watches for things like the time I wrote a check to an office supply company to pay a bill for $75.00, only I left out the decimal point. Dh was adamant that the financial work stay in the family, but he supported me when I asked our office manager to take some of it over...and gave her a raise.

My point is that another piece of all this is support. How we can improve support of mothers is another area for thought, but I think it's going to come from within, not from instututionalization of support. I have the help of my mother because she and I have always had a great relationship. I'm the youngest of four, and maybe it's no coincidence that with me, she threw away the detachment parenting advice given by the doctor, which she followed so obediantly with the other kids. Is it a late benefit of more attachment oriented parenting, that intergenerational support presents itself as a delightful option? Is this another way that attachment parenting itself can fix so many of the world's wounds?...ototot

This discussion will probably continue over the next few days. We'll be out of town, so I'll see what has gone on when I return next week.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MomInFlux*
I can be a strong role model for my both my children that they can do anything..

Yea, but I see a big difference with believing that one person can do *anything* and believing that one person can do *everything*.

The list I gave was a random example of things that I thought may be important to one individual and how they would be difficult to accomplish for one individual. It was, by no means, what I consider "everything".

I was just posting in support of people, like me, who are struggling with the fact that they feel they must give up something like a career in favor of another choice. As much as I believe that it's a mistake to automatically assume you can't pursue many paths and to not even try, I also think the pressure to 'have it all' is a recipe for disappointment, to say the least.

I think we have a situation where *some* mothers find a way to do *most* of what they want/need. That's GREAT! But, it doesn't have much to do with the fact that most parents give up quite a bit when they have kids and that's a completely valid issue.

With the role model issue, there is a valid issue for SAHMs who do that in the long term that *this* is what they model for their children. It's okay to be concerned with this. And, it doesn't mean that this isn't a valid choice or that that choice can't be combined with other things.

I don't know, maybe I'm reading too much into the way this thread has gone. To me, I see an issue that I can relate to, which I feel is perfectly valid and which I don't feel invalidates anyone else's choice and yet it has turned into a 'but you *can* have everything' discussion, which just happens to be one of my least favorite topics.

But, it's great that the discussion also includes support but I would like to point out that support is just one of many factors that allow for both a satisfying career and children.

To bring another subject to this because people have talked about ways that we can all help to make changes, I feel it's important to discuss work demands for all people. It just seems to me that the model in the US is very much 'live to work'. The all or nothing, highly competitive 60 hour work week is a problem for all of us, whether we're the one's doing it or not.


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## MomInFlux (Oct 23, 2003)

Whoops! I honestly did not mean to imply that I, or any individual, can have "everything". What I really meant to point out is that - with a significant amount of help and support - I can accomplish a lot of what is important to me. But my support system and my work life are outside of the norm. I am incredibly fortunate in that I have found a way to organize my life so that I can be the mama that I want to be and not have to give up a career that I'm good at, enjoy, and provides for my family. If I had to give up one completely for the other, I'd be unhappy.

I believe that part of the answer lies in a new paradigm for motherhood and working for pay. BUT I also believe that part of the answer lies in a new paradigm for parenting and working for pay. It's about a healthy balance between working and parenting for all parents and valuing the parenting side as much as the working side. My DH and I are working toward a future where we both work part time and share the parenting and can model a healthy balance for our kids so that they believe that working and parenting can go hand-in-hand. When my children are old enough for us to start talking about education and careers and parenting, I want to help them evaluate career paths that are meaningful to them and that can also be flexible enough so that they are not faced with the one-or-the other choices that parents are faced with today.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MomInFlux*
My DH and I are working toward a future where we both work part time and share the parenting and can model a healthy balance for our kids so that they believe that working and parenting can go hand-in-hand. When my children are old enough for us to start talking about education and careers and parenting, I want to help them evaluate career paths that are meaningful to them and that can also be flexible enough so that they are not faced with the one-or-the other choices that parents are faced with today.











Wonderful post...and right in line with the OP, imo. I just really like this because this is my goal as well and we're coming from a different work set up. (I SAH and DH works full time)

Anyway, I'm happy that I posted again...thanks.


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## boomingranny (Dec 11, 2003)

exactly...

and with the village that it takes to raise the children, the village has a lot to offer them. Different adults have a lot to offer in terms of enrichment. I'm a single mom and could never have done it without my support system. What's so cool is that my daughter has learned really neat stuff - from her daycare providers, my sister, my girlfriends and what I really like is that she's a part of an extended family of friends and their kids. She has sibling like relationships with two children we are close to. How lucky for an only! she gets to squabble, work things out, have secrets, all that stuff.

I hear what Identity is saying. It truly sucks that we feel we have to choose one or the other, hence the acronyms "SAHM" and "WOHM".

I adhere to 40 hours a week and I did this before dd was born. I enjoy my job but I enjoy having "a life" as well.

peace


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## Curious (Jan 4, 2002)

I'm back...

Somehow we got into the old 'having it all' debate, which was not where I think this thread was meant to head when it started. It's a valid problem, but a separate one.

If anyone gets the Christopherus newsletter, from Christopherus.com waldorf homeschool guidance, Donna Simmons writes eloquently on how we can improve the view of homemaking and childcare to one that is spiritually important and important for the world. I agree with everything she says.

BUT: I don't want my daughter to aspire primarily to be a mother and homemaker. I don't want her to have as her primary life goal, something that requires her to marry, get pregnant, and be dependant on someone else. Heaven help her, or any woman, who happens to make a poor choice of husband and can't fend for herself.

I want her to understand the value of devoting herself to these pursuits, but AFTER she has some way of achieving security independently. I do not ever want her to feel that she can't get by without a man or his insurance policy. I want her to always feel she can take care of herself.

Sorry if my strong stance offends...my language is probably pretty harsh, it's been a long few weeks.


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## Czen:) (Jul 31, 2002)

I think you said it very well Curious.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

BUT: I don't want my daughter to aspire primarily to be a mother and homemaker. I don't want her to have as her primary life goal, something that requires her to marry, get pregnant, and be dependant on someone else.
That's a shame. One would hope that wanting women to have *real* choices would mean supporting them even in being a "dependant" homemaker. Yes, if dh chose to up and leave us right now, the only way I would be able to support my children is to be a daycare mother. I'm not qualified to do something where I'd make a lot of money after paying for daycare for two kids.

But this is the life I chose. It's what I've always wanted to be. Spending time on college and a money making career would have been a waste of time for me. I go to college now. One or two classes a semester, but something that I enjoy, that interests me. I do it for fun. I hope to get IBCLC certified, but I'm not in a rush.

Homemaker and homeschooling mom is my primary career path. I hope that more people would see that as legitimate, even if it doesn't pay bills. At our house, the bills are dh's job and I trust him to do that.


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## MomInFlux (Oct 23, 2003)

I'd like to apologize for my role in going off on a "having it all" tangent.

Curious - I agree with you. But I interpret this as a continuation of the either/or proposition where the male partner always works and the female partner first works and then stays at home after children. To my (admittedly biased) mind, this POV (which I'm not saying you're advocating, BTW), is too closely tied to traditional gender roles. It seems to me that one way to "improve the view of homemaking and childcare" is to increase the role of men in homemaking and childcare. And one way for that to happen is to provide real part-time work opportunities for both men and women, and to lose the macho 60-hour work week (a scenario I'm all too familiar with).

I LOVE my role as wife and mother, but there is life before and after (well, you know what I mean) children. I want my daughter to start down a fulfilling life path before she marries and has children, one where she can - yes - support herself. I think it is important that she develops the ability to be independent, even if she chooses to be "dependent" at some point in her life. Why is making money demonized? It's a pretty common idea that life requires money, so what's wrong with earning it? That act need not diminish other aspects of one's life, including mothering.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I really enjoy this conversation because it brings up so many different issues for us as mothers and is now getting into some cultural issues in regards to parenting.

One thing that jumped out at me is the issue of independence. From my perspective, the way we view independence is largely a cultural thing and the USA is very focused on independence. Personally, this is something I don't want to perpetuate to the extent that it is in US culture. It's a central issue in my parenting from co-sleeping to delaying school for my child and it will be an issue when we deal with the issue of my children being able to fully and solely support themselves on all levels.

Here's the way I look at it ~ we aren't independent. No matter how distorted our "village" gets ~ we still function as a great big village. Yea, and money is our main source of trade...which makes it so important. Okay, I'm rambling.

All I'm really saying is that I think the drive to be totally financially (and often emotionally) independent is a cultural thing that has its place (because of the reality of where we live) but it also has (more than, imo) its fare share of negatives. It creates selfishness, has a negative impact on the community, it's really bad for the way "AP" is viewed and I also think it's bad for the individual.

Another issue I see here is the emphasis on money making pursuits as valuable. (someone mentioned this earlier in the thread) while, others being less valuable. And it does seem to be what we're saying sometimes. I mean, many of us probably have what's often referred to as "hobbies" ~ meaning pursuits that don't make us money...or that we don't do for the sake of making money. But, a truly satisfying career is more than just making money, no? And, "hobby" has such a trivial connotation. What's up with that?

I just typed lots more and realized that so much of what we're talking about comes from our very personal perspective. You know, I can't relate to feeling like any aspects of my pre-parenting life are a waste but I can totally see how someone might if they, say, spent 8 years learning a specialized form on rocket fuel ~ and made six figures to boot.

This is maybe a part of the problem when we talk about this. I don't really *get* why discussing this we often get so defensive. Think about it ~ we're talking about our individual perspective ~ or own experience, feelings...our own baggage. YK?


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Curious*
BUT: I don't want my daughter to aspire primarily to be a mother and homemaker. I don't want her to have as her primary life goal, something that requires her to marry, get pregnant, and be dependant on someone else.

And

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MomInFlux*
I want my daughter to start down a fulfilling life path before she marries and has children, one where she can - yes - support herself.

Our daughters should be able to choose whatever primary life goal they feel will be fulfilling to them without being made to feel like they are somehow choosing the lesser path. Only then will women have real, not contrived, choices. It really angers me to see mothers devalue their own or their daughters' potential choices.

Namaste!


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## MomInFlux (Oct 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
It really angers me to see mothers devalue their own or their daughters' potential choices.

I don't believe that I am devaluing either my own or my daughter's potential choices. I think that I will be enabling my daughter to make good choices. If my daughter were to enter into marriage and mothering without the ability to support herself if needed, then she would not have the skills necessary to make real, equivalent choices. I do not believe that mothering is a lesser life path - nor have I said as much. But there are too many women and children living in poverty because the wife/mothering thing didn't work out as planned (through abandonment, divorce, death, what have you) and the mothers don't have the skills needed to support their family by themselves. IF society were to change so that women were entitled to a portion of their husband's income, or earned social security for staying with their children, or.... THEN the playing field might be leveled a little bit and there wouldn't be such a dichotomy between "working" and "not working". I've seen many threads around here where a women with children is in a relationship with a man that isn't working out, but the woman doesn't have the skills needed to leave and support herself and her children. That woman may have choices, but she doesn't necessarily have GOOD choices.

I do not believe that independence fosters selfishness or a negative impact on the community. Independence fosters self-esteem, which in most circumstances is quite healthy. Nor do I believe that financial independence equates to emotional independence. I consider myself financially independent, in that I am the working parent, and should something happen to DH, I will be able to continue to support my family. In no way do I consider myself to be emotionally independent. I'm at least partially emotionally dependent on my DH and my children. To be fully emotionally dependent on my DH and children, though, I think would be unhealthy.

I don't think that money-making pursuits are inherently good or bad. In terms of the OP, I think that a mother who can show her children that her education and experience can be put to use outside of a money-making endeavor is a great mother (think of the field trips and science experiments that a rocket scientist turned SAHM can do with her kids!). I think that a mother who has a passion for something (a hobby!) and shares that passion with her children is a great mother, whether or not there is money involved. So while I don't think that passions/hobbies should be trivialied, nor do I think that making money should be demonized.

Peace.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Seems like some mamas consider the devaluing of the sahm choice the primary problem, and some mamas consider the lack of real choices for mothers the primary problem.

And around and around we go . . .

(I fall in the later camp, btw)


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Ahh! Sorry, I don't think I was very clear about the 'independence' tangent I went on (and I'm also not sure if it was even relevant). But, I'd like to clarify. I didn't mean that independence in an individual leads to selfishness. I meant that from a cultural perspective the value placed on independence can cause a selfish culture.

I'd kind of like to back off a little but I did want to say something regarding financial independence in a two parent (one working/one SAH) family. The money earning parent is not necessarily financially independent. DH makes the cash but he's financially dependent on me ~ to the extent that we have the same life insurance coverage.

This also is relevant to the OP because the reality is that a parent who chooses to stay at home (even for a short while) often make a huge sacrifice with their career ~ whether this is a mother or father.

On a lighter note and to respond again to Mominflux, I don't demonize money making...I didn't mean to give that impression (but maybe it wasn't me you were responding. I love money *way* too much,







. This is just a personal issue of mine because I have so many artist friends/acquaintances and there's often this awkward issue of asking what they 'do'...for money. I just never really know the best way to ask without sounding rude. It's the 'SAHM at the cocktail party' problem but with a writer, artist, musician.

I value SAHMs and artist but sometimes the question I want to know is, "Do you have a job?" That's a difficult thing to ask without devaluing non-paid work, yk?


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I value WOHMs too, btw!

Oh, and I did a spin off on independence...here in PI.


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