# atheist/agnostic tribe



## Ms. Mom

*Welcome back!*

*Welcome to the new atheist tribe!*

We have removed the last tribe thread because of multiple User Agreement violations. I deleted the OPs post above so I could use the same URL (this way everyone could find the thread easier). I could not remove the post completely or it would delete the whole thread.

The atheist tribe is great place to discuss many issues:


Handling holidays
Raising your kids in an atheist home
Talking with family and friends
You're atheist, your spouse is not

If you would like to talk about religious or spiritual issues, please post those discussions in our Religious Studies forum. Keep in mind that _Mothering_ respects all members' rights to practice religions that feel right for them, just as we respect the rights of members not to follow or believe in religions or common beliefs.

Please remember the stated purpose of the Finding Your Tribe forum:

Quote:

Though Finding Your Tribe was originally opened to help parents find each other based on their location we have welcomed tribe threads for parents of a like-minded path to meet and chit chat with one another. However, such threads should not take a focus of discussion for a topic that is hosted in an existing forum at MDC.

A natural course of chit chat discussion might carry you into discussing your daily lives and sharing events and struggles. But focused discussion of a parenting topic, a breastfeeding issue or problem, an activist or political issue, a religious concern or belief, just to name a few, should go to the appropriate forum for discussion with the larger MDC community. If you have any question in this regard feel free to check with the moderators before posting. Should you post or thread not be appropriate for FYT on this basis it may be moved to the appropriate forum.

To that end, please feel free to start a new thread that discusses everyday life and general chat about life when one is an atheist. Some examples of this would be how to handle holidays, how to explain differences in religious beliefs to children, how to interact with relatives. Focused religious discussion, including critical posts about other belief systems belong in religious studies.

Focused religious discussion, including critical posts about other belief systems belong in religious studies.All posts in religious studies must adhere both to the User Agreement and the religious studies guidelines.

Please note that there is no place on MDC where it is acceptable to speak disrespectfully of another faith. The User Agreement states:

Quote:

*We do not tolerate any type of discrimination in the discussions, including but not limited to* racism, heterosexism, classism, *religious bigotry*, or discrimination toward the disabled. *We* will not host discussions that involve explicit sexual references and a*re cautious about discussions on volatile topics such as* abortion, *religion*, and race.

and

Quote:

*Do not post in a disrespectful*, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, *offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including* casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, *demeaning criticism, name-calling*, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law.

If you have any questions about this, please _*PM one of the FYT mods or admins rather than discussing it in a thread*_.


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## leftcoastmama

Well shoot. Now I can't even remember who all was in the tribe before. Anyone up for a roll call? No need to comment at length, just say "here."


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## malibusunny

here!

Where were we? I don't remember.


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## DaughterOfKali

Here!


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## atom'smama

Hi all,
I don't post much but wanted to say Hi from another atheist. I guess I don't have enough posts to enter the religious studies forum.
Beth


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## Ms. Mom

After discussions with many members we decided to remove some posts that were User Agreement violations and return this thread again. We would like the discussion to continue here and ask that members keep the discussion on topic.

If you have any questions or concerns, you are welcome to pm a forum moderator or administrator and we will be happy to discuss it with you.


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## mamakay

I'm here!


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## prairiemommy

And I'm here. Not much else to say.


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## lalaland42

I wasn't in the tribe before but I came looking for a place to discuss my most recent problem. Can't do it tonight, I'm too tired.


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## boingo82

Here, not much else to say.


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## Hatteras Gal

I'm here. So, what are all my atheist sisters doing today?







We have to go town. The fridge that came with this house is ridiculously small so we're going to check out someone selling a fridge for $40. To have as a second fridge. I'd love a nice new big stainless steel fridge but there's no $$ right now for that big of a purchase.

Have a great day!


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## orangecanoe

Subbing...we're UUs, but this thread speaks to me...

So in the 'everyday life as an atheist'







vein....

Is anyone in the thick of vacation bible school country? How do you respond when that topic comes up on the playground. We live in a more conservative area and my kids aren't school age yet, but this has come up quite a few times. I toe the line between wanting to be polite and being more honest, given how well the 'not a christian' thing goes over on a message board. I'm not guessing that RL is any more tactful.


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## Hatteras Gal

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heatherfeather* 
Subbing...we're UUs, but this thread speaks to me...

So in the 'everyday life as an atheist'







vein....

Is anyone in the thick of vacation bible school country? How do you respond when that topic comes up on the playground. We live in a more conservative area and my kids aren't school age yet, but this has come up quite a few times. I toe the line between wanting to be polite and being more honest, given how well the 'not a christian' thing goes over on a message board. I'm not guessing that RL is any more tactful.

I'm on my way out the door, but I'll be back later...


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## ilovejeff

I'm here! Before the thread got taken down, there was a discussion started about what to teach your kids to say when someone sneezes (as many of our tribe are understandably uncomfortable with "god bless you.") I didn't get a chance to read all the responses and I need ideas!

Mods, I hope this is ok to post here and not the reason the thread got removed in the first place.


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## lasciate

Gesundheit. Basically, it's German for 'good health'. I never heard anyone say 'bless you' after a sneeze until I was in my teens.


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## Hatteras Gal

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heatherfeather* 
Subbing...we're UUs, but this thread speaks to me...

So in the 'everyday life as an atheist'







vein....

Is anyone in the thick of vacation bible school country? How do you respond when that topic comes up on the playground. We live in a more conservative area and my kids aren't school age yet, but this has come up quite a few times. I toe the line between wanting to be polite and being more honest, given how well the 'not a christian' thing goes over on a message board. I'm not guessing that RL is any more tactful.


Well, this year, a person I don't even know drove up while we were out playing and invited my kids (by way of asking me) to VBS for the following week. She went into a little of what goes on and said it was being run at the Lutheran church but all the churches in town were doing it together. We have 3 churches, Lutheran, Methodist, and Catholic in a town of about 300. I was caught a bit off guard so I thanked her and said we'd think about it. And I seriously thought about it. We haven't lived here long and I thought it might be a good way for my kids to meet other kids their age that live around here. But in the end I decided starting a play group might be the better way to accomplish that.

If I was at the playground and a parent asked me if my kids were going to VBS, I could go a number of ways on that one. A simple "no" is probably my gut reaction. If the person persisted, I might say "we're not religious" or "my husband had a bad VBS experience, he doesn't wan our kids going." Which is true.


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## leftcoastmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lasciate* 
Gesundheit. Basically, it's German for 'good health'. I never heard anyone say 'bless you' after a sneeze until I was in my teens.

I say "salud" which is Spanish for health, or I say "bleh-shoe" which is what I thought people were saying when they blessed me when I was little.


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## california_mom

I'm here... I can't believe we're back. Naked, but back.

As for sneezing, I say "Bless you." Heck, I figger I can bless anyone I want! I've got the power


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## Bad Horse

Quote:


Originally Posted by *california_mom* 
As for sneezing, I say "Bless you." Heck, I figger I can bless anyone I want! I've got the power









That's what I do, too! I figger the same thing


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## orangebird

Here with nothing to say (anymore)









And welcome. Fun doing roll call, it is.


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## odenata

Here!


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## siobhang

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heatherfeather* 

Is anyone in the thick of vacation bible school country? How do you respond when that topic comes up on the playground. We live in a more conservative area and my kids aren't school age yet, but this has come up quite a few times.

this is one reason we joined a UU church. We actually go to UU "vacation church camp" (suusi - southeastern unitarian universalist summer institute) - leaving in a week.

In addition to the community and religious education and all the other stuff we get from our church, we also get (some) protection from all the churchy types in our area trying to convert my kids...


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## Lemon Juice

I'm here! went to join in on the last thread and it was locked (pm'd the mod and got the answer as to why)

Glad it's back!!









Btw...we also say "salud" or "bless you", mostly salud tho (thought about this when my first was a baby...and stuck w/ it all these years)

Oh..I'm also about to change my user name...so I'll update the new one when I do


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## voicegrrl

Glad to find this thread. I have been having similar experiences with VBS, etc. Sometimes it feels like everyone in our neighborhood and our Irish Dance community is involved in church activities. I don't know why I always have that weird feeling inside when someone mentions it. Partly it's because my oldest had a lot of pressure from friends at school last year about not going to church and we had many discussions way past bedtime because she was so stressed about it. I wish I'd looked for a thread like this for support when all of that was going on. We live in the south and it seems like when you meet someone the first thing they do is ask you where you go to church. I already feel judged half the time because I have large tattoos on my arms. Then I give the whole "we don't go to church" statement. I just don't want my daughters to be treated badly for our decisions, KWIM?


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## malibusunny

I say "bless you" because it's culturally ingrained. I am always a little startled when someone says "god bless you" because I don't think of it that way.

Nick is too young for VBS (I think?) but we did have to deal with why he doesn't go to Sunday school, since all the other kids his age at daycare not only go to Sunday school weekly but go to the same church. I blamed our DJ company for keeping us up too late on Saturday nights.







: I'm always afraid to say "because god is pretend" when it might affect my kid.


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## voicegrrl

You have a DJ business? I'm a DJ, the kind on the radio, but I used to do some weddings, dances, etc when I was younger. I usually am on the air on Sunday so I have used that as an excuse before ;-)


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## orangecanoe

Thanks for the VBS thoughts. I also have gotten excluded from conversations at gym class as well.

Voicegrrl---what you said about not wanted your kids to be treated badly for your decisions resonated.

more to say, but small people thwart me...


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## lalaland42

About the VBS thing. If it is an evangelist at the door, "no thank you we are atheists and don't plan on converting". If it is someone at playgroup, "no, we have enough going on, thanks."

Now that I dyed my hair purple and told everyone I know IRL we are atheists, VBS comes up surprisingly little.


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## prairiemommy

The two things:

Sneezing: We say "Bless you" but we mean it in a general, "Hope you're okay"-type way. I'm not creative enough to come up with something and "Gesundheit" always made me feel weird growing up b/c I came from a German family and felt like everyone was critiquing my pronunciation if I used it.

VBS: I just say, "No." but we're not in a thick bible belt here. We have a lot of "Christmas Christians" in our area that do VBS b/c their children's friends are doing it etc.... Quite often VBS is a one-day thing even so it's really not a big deal. We do know one family that will occasionally invite us to some function at their church (the _un_-Halloween party) but we just politely decline. It was hard when my kids were little because they thought they were being invited to a _Halloween_ party and were upset when they found out I said no (the invites would inevitably come home with them from school). So now I just explain - "No, it's a religious _instead-of-Halloween_ party" and they're okay.

Just an aside - the mom from the family that gives us invites once asked me, "So how *did* you name your children? They are such religious names!" (they are pretty traditional names which yes, just happen to be found in the bible). Sigh. I was a little taken aback because I felt like she was saying, "How did you manage to get that right at least?" but I answered, "Oh, we just liked the sound of them.".









More wordy than I imagined. Sorry!


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## expat-mama

I say "GROSS!"








just kiddin'- I don't really say anything because I don't like it when people say "bless you" to me...
I dislike the whole idea of "blessing". I guess I could say "oh, I hope you're not getting sick" or something along those lines...but I don't. Is that rude?

I don't feel neglected when people say nothing when I sneeze








People don't say "bless you" when you cough, burp, fart or hiccup...what's so special about sneezing?


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## Sharlla

Here


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## darkpear

Here, FWIW...

We're a 'gesundheit' house here too.


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## Lemon Juice

Quote:


Originally Posted by *expat-mama* 
I say "GROSS!"








just kiddin'- I don't really say anything because I don't like it when people say "bless you" to me...
I dislike the whole idea of "blessing". I guess I could say "oh, I hope you're not getting sick" or something along those lines...but I don't. Is that rude?

I don't feel neglected when people say nothing when I sneeze








People don't say "bless you" when you cough, burp, fart or hiccup...what's so special about sneezing?

"GROSS"







:

There are a few origins as of why people say "bless you". I grew up knowing the one about your heart stopping when you sneeze, and saying bless you to bring you back, or something like that. There is also one about it being the first sign of the plague and people saying "bless you" to help stop the disease from spreading.







I know.


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## california_mom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LemonJuice* 
There is also one about it being the first sign of the plague and people saying "bless you" to help stop the disease from spreading.







I know.









That's what i was gonna say.


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## Lemon Juice

Quote:


Originally Posted by *california_mom* 
That's what i was gonna say.

Great minds think alike...and all that


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## moon.mom

I'm here.

We are UU- so I'll probably just cruise those threads.
Or other non-religious websites.

In "Parenting Beyond Belief"- one of the stories mentions that they say
*"THAT'S FUNNY!"* when someone sneezes.

(It's a great book- BTW- for raising children without religion. We attend a UU church- and if you don't know-being atheist is perfectly okay in most UU churches.)

VBS.....
OMG- I was raised going to it.
As I mentioned- we are UU- and our "church camp" is this next week.
I'm so excited!!! The authors of the book, "Thank God for Evolution" are going to be the theme speakers. Not exactly sure- seems like he uses a lot of religious language. Should be interesting anyway.
We can always just go swimming or take naps if we don't like his stuff.


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## cjanelles

I'm glad to see this thread and the explanation herein for why it was removed and returned.

I'm having some atheist family issues myself, mainly being that I'm about to have to go back to work (I've been a SAHM) and the only quality daycare around here is actually in a church up the street from my house.

We don't vax and we're atheists and I'm going to have to put my 1 yr old in a church daycare. There's going to have to be some dishonesty going on here because we can only claim religious or medical exemption for not vaxing...I'm a little stressed about the whole thing, honestly.

As for sneezing? We say to the baby, "Scat cat!" and to everyone else (also atheist or agnostic) we say "You sneezed."


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## jenners26

I'm here too! Even though I've been lurking forever, I'm trying hard to post more! As far as sneezing...we just say bless you. That's what we said in my religious household growing up, and now, I'm too lazy to think of anything else!


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## orangebird

I usually say bless you.

I found out it is offensive to say god bless you in utah, so it works out good. Though I have no problem saying god bless you, what do I care, but now, living here it's just "bless you".


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## Lemon Juice

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cjanelles* 
We don't vax and we're atheists and I'm going to have to put my 1 yr old in a church daycare. There's going to have to be some dishonesty going on here because we can only claim religious or medical exemption for not vaxing...I'm a little stressed about the whole thing, honestly.

Our state is the same way too







: We homeschool so we can get away w/ all of it for 2 of my babes..but we want to do co op preschool for our 4 yr old and will have to "lie" about it too. Wtf? It's so ridiculous that *MY* personal beliefs don't count...but a religion picking beliefs for me do! It feels like it's okay in the state's eyes that the religion keeps your child from being vaxed...but the parent?! Heck no...that's just crazy, apparently







:


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## orangebird

Howz everyone doing?


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## Lemon Juice

Good here..but I killed the thread







:








:


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## Bad Horse

Good!

How _you_ doin', orangebird?


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## cjanelles

I'm here...again.

It's been pretty stressful in my family.

My big kids start school on Wednesday (2 days from now). I've got one going into high school and one going into middle school.

My little one doesn't have to start daycare yet because I still haven't gotten a job.

My husband has been out of work for 8 weeks and his disability benefits have been all screwed up, to the point that when we have gotten a paycheck, it's been less than half his base pay...and more often than not, we've not gotten a paycheck at all. As it is, he has gotten so frustrated with the whole system that he's going back to work tomorrow, against doctor's orders, and we won't be getting a check this week at all...because his doctor's orders said "NO WORK," but apparently, the disability people don't think that's sufficient, even with all the supporting documentation. I guess they know better than the doctor, huh?

Anyway, sometimes I wish I had some sort of faith so that I could find comfort in the belief that god was going to take care of me and everything was going to be fine.


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## california_mom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lemon Juice* 
Good here..but I killed the thread







:








:

Yea. We just can't bring you anywhere!


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## casemnor

Hi!

Subbing...

I usually say "bless you" just out of habit....I don't put much stock into it, and like another poster...too lazy to think of anything else. It's more a reflexive response than anything.

As for the VBS question, as well as the "what church do you guys go to?"...I just say we don't go to church and that we're atheists. I've gotten all sorts of reactions (neutral to disgusted). Generally this is from people I hardly know, and given their response....I decide whether or not I want to know them or not.


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## orangebird

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lemon Juice* 
Good here..but I killed the thread







:








:

You didn't kill the thread silly. Just isn't much to talk about these days.

Let's see.

Here we go, what about podcasts. Anyone here listen to podcasts? I have a ton I subscribe to. If anyone is into that sort of thing I would love to share.


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## orangebird

Oh, cjanelles' post reminds me. We have school starting up here too.

And that's fine.

But what sux is what got sprang on me last month. My hours are being cut and I have to start looking for another job. I hate interviews and really suck at them. When they ask those stock questions I say the dumbest things. Plus, next weekend we are going rafting for 4 days, and then in september we wanted to go to our friends' wedding in CA. I told DP to cancel the wedding trip plans until I find a job. But the rafting thing is already planned and not something I can back out of. We are fortunate and have big savings so I have been dragging my feet, but I really need to get on the ball and apply for a job. I don't want to squander away savings just so I can sit on my ass all week online playing around. I do need to look for a job. BOO!


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## almadianna

oh hi!!!!!!!!!
yayyy thread.


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## Bad Horse

Oh, Almadianna! A local mama that's on this thread, woohoo!!
I'm near Ikea, I'd meant to answer your question at some point on what area of town I was in, so I figure now is good cause I lost track of where it was you asked me









I'll send you a pm!

Sorry you have to look for another job, orangebird. Ugh.

Oh!!! I just got a text letting us know dh's paycheck just got deposited.







: We've been BROKE for a week. Yay, human moneys are good! dh is going to go get us mocha chillers at Sonic







Not being broke any more is a good thing!

I'm glad you have savings, orangebird. Living paycheck to paycheck sucks. One of these days we'll be able to get ahead enough to save. I look forward to living like a grown up eventually.


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## almadianna

i live close to the ikea!! a little further down i-10 around 6 minutes away actually.
yayyy houston!
and yayyy not being broke.


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## moon.mom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cjanelles* 
Anyway, sometimes I wish I had some sort of faith so that I could find comfort in the belief that god was going to take care of me and everything was going to be fine.

I think I know how you feel.

It's difficult to find your "salvation"

My dh and I consider ourselves Humanist-
Secular Humanism or Religious Humanism... (along with Unitarian Universalist)

It's also not as "scarey" or intimidating a word for people in the bible belt-
(atheist vs. humanist) they seem to cock their heads funny and say, "Oh- Ok- I've never heard of that..."

hang in there
keep faith in yourself- you aren't alone

joy


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## cjanelles

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moon.mom* 
I think I know how you feel.

It's difficult to find your "salvation"

My dh and I consider ourselves Humanist-
Secular Humanism or Religious Humanism... (along with Unitarian Universalist)

It's also not as "scarey" or intimidating a word for people in the bible belt-
(atheist vs. humanist) they seem to cock their heads funny and say, "Oh- Ok- I've never heard of that..."

hang in there
keep faith in yourself- you aren't alone

joy


I've not done much reading on Humanism, but I figure it probably fits my core beliefs, just based on the name. LOL

I live in the Deep South and people around here get really freaked out if you admit you're an atheist or agnostic. It's like advertising that you're doing Black Mass in your backyard and sacrificing goats every Saturday night.


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## straighthaircurly

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovejeff* 
I'm here! Before the thread got taken down, there was a discussion started about what to teach your kids to say when someone sneezes (as many of our tribe are understandably uncomfortable with "god bless you.") I didn't get a chance to read all the responses and I need ideas!

Mods, I hope this is ok to post here and not the reason the thread got removed in the first place.









We say "Salud" (SA-lood), Spanish for health.


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## jaidymama

Hello, I'm new at this thread. But I find in my wanderings that I belong here more in the last few years than, well, before that.....

Anyways, a friend of mine sent me this silly poll that MSNBC is taking about the words "in god we trust" on our money. While I'm probably pretty indifferent to the whole thing I thought I would at least share it with you all in case you wanted to vote one way or another on it. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10103521/

Besides that I'm interested to hear about your experiences and share mine as I make my way through parenting 101-revised... that is different from that of most people in my family and those I grew up with.


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## jaidymama

Our stance on sneezing...

my dh grew up not being allowed to say it because of his church rules. I grew up saying it off the cuff. So he enjoys being able to say it, although when I think of it, we don't hold a religious sentiment to it... rather a polite phrase in our repertoire.

As for politely declining... I like simply saying you have have other plans. And I think being able to say or putting a label on what you do believe (like saying you're humanist) goes a lot farther toward peace than talking about perhaps what you don't believe. However, I'm a big fan of focusing on the what is rather than what is not's in life...


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## atom'smama

I am reading the book parenting beyond belief right now and i highly recommend it. It is different essays on parenting without god. There is an essay by Penn Gillett and he talks about saying "bless you" when someone sneezes. In his house they say "that's funny", and he's right it is funny when someone sneezes. I usually just don't make a comment one way or the other.


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## beansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lemon Juice* 
Our state is the same way too







: We homeschool so we can get away w/ all of it for 2 of my babes..but we want to do co op preschool for our 4 yr old and will have to "lie" about it too. Wtf? It's so ridiculous that *MY* personal beliefs don't count...but a religion picking beliefs for me do! It feels like it's okay in the state's eyes that the religion keeps your child from being vaxed...but the parent?! Heck no...that's just crazy, apparently







:

Well, i'm in oregon - which has the same "religious beliefs" exemption. I was told that "beliefs" was pretty broad - as is "religious". Basically, here anyway, anything you BELIEVE is considered your religious beliefs.


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## beansmama

I just wanted to introduce myself...

I'm a new a born again atheist  - as of well, a couple weeks ago. Raised Christian my whole life (25 years...woot!).

I'm not "out of the closet" yet...as i'm still living with my parents (divorce issues, etc) and they are very religious. I'm not ready for the Sh*t to hit the fan!

I have a 4 year old DD who i've been teaching about God/Jesus to since she was a baby...how do i deal with my sudden switch in "beliefs"? I don't want to crush her dreams. She thinks Jesus is very real. Prays (with gramma, not me)...goes to church sometimes (also with gramma...).

Sofar what i've been doing is NOTHING. I'd like her to be able to make up her own mind when she's old enough to. I don't want to sway her one way or the other, really. So should i just keep up the "nothing"...eh, i really just don't know *what* exactly i'm doing, lol.


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## jaidymama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beansmama* 
I just wanted to introduce myself...

I'm a new a born again atheist  - as of well, a couple weeks ago. Raised Christian my whole life (25 years...woot!).

I'm not "out of the closet" yet...as i'm still living with my parents (divorce issues, etc) and they are very religious. I'm not ready for the Sh*t to hit the fan!

I have a 4 year old DD who i've been teaching about God/Jesus to since she was a baby...how do i deal with my sudden switch in "beliefs"? I don't want to crush her dreams. She thinks Jesus is very real. Prays (with gramma, not me)...goes to church sometimes (also with gramma...).

Sofar what i've been doing is NOTHING. I'd like her to be able to make up her own mind when she's old enough to. I don't want to sway her one way or the other, really. So should i just keep up the "nothing"...eh, i really just don't know *what* exactly i'm doing, lol.

Honestly, I don't think you would have to do much of anything right now for your daughter even though you don't agree with those beliefs anymore. The thing I always consider is how many people are raised in a religious structure, and then as adults find something that fits them better. Plus consider that you are on your belief journey, and that your daughter is on hers. Perhaps when you move to your own home someday that the religious focus that you once had with her fill fade on its own. For me it comes down to saying that this is a choice I am making for myself, and that I respect other people's choices that they make for themselves (even if it makes my skin crawl). And from my perspective beliefs are not etched in stone, they are dynamic and change with your life... so for your dd I wouldn't think it's something that will stick with her forever... and if you're recently divorced and she's used to the Christian dynamic perhaps she's finding comfort in it... that's not necessarily a bad thing... the comfort part, that is.

Just my 2 cents.


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## siobhang

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beansmama* 
I'm a new a born again atheist  - as of well, a couple weeks ago. Raised Christian my whole life (25 years...woot!).

I am curious, what happened a couple of weeks ago? Was it a gradual thing? or was there some sort of event that made your beliefs clear?

Me, I grew up learning about Jesus and God and so forth, and then as I started going to church more and more, I would realize that I just didn't agree with things I was being told to say I believed (the Nicene Creed, etc). So I would just not say that part of the service. Then I found myself more and more uncomfortable by things said in the service - things that I categorically did not believe to be literally true - to the point where it just felt so false to be attending.

So I didn't attend any church for a good long while. I considered myself agnostic, mainly because I find being agnostic to be "safer" both socially and emotionally. Being an out and out atheist is so difficult in the US, that it took me a long time to "go there", as it were.

My dh helped. he is an atheist and the more we talked, the more I realized that really, truly, I am too.

it was a gradual process and only in the last few years (around age 35 or so), did I feel comfortable stating and knowing that I am an atheist.


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## beansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jaidymama* 
Honestly, I don't think you would have to do much of anything right now for your daughter even though you don't agree with those beliefs anymore. The thing I always consider is how many people are raised in a religious structure, and then as adults find something that fits them better. Plus consider that you are on your belief journey, and that your daughter is on hers. Perhaps when you move to your own home someday that the religious focus that you once had with her fill fade on its own. For me it comes down to saying that this is a choice I am making for myself, and that I respect other people's choices that they make for themselves (even if it makes my skin crawl). And from my perspective beliefs are not etched in stone, they are dynamic and change with your life... so for your dd I wouldn't think it's something that will stick with her forever... and if you're recently divorced and she's used to the Christian dynamic perhaps she's finding comfort in it... that's not necessarily a bad thing... the comfort part, that is.

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks for your 2 cents








I totally agree with what you are saying. Personally, i just quit bringing up religion and egging it on. If she wants to go to church with gramma then i'm not going to stop her...but i wont pressure her into either.

And yes, skin crawling has been expirienced


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## beansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
I am curious, what happened a couple of weeks ago? Was it a gradual thing? or was there some sort of event that made your beliefs clear?

Me, I grew up learning about Jesus and God and so forth, and then as I started going to church more and more, I would realize that I just didn't agree with things I was being told to say I believed (the Nicene Creed, etc). So I would just not say that part of the service. Then I found myself more and more uncomfortable by things said in the service - things that I categorically did not believe to be literally true - to the point where it just felt so false to be attending.

So I didn't attend any church for a good long while. I considered myself agnostic, mainly because I find being agnostic to be "safer" both socially and emotionally. Being an out and out atheist is so difficult in the US, that it took me a long time to "go there", as it were.

My dh helped. he is an atheist and the more we talked, the more I realized that really, truly, I am too.

it was a gradual process and only in the last few years (around age 35 or so), did I feel comfortable stating and knowing that I am an atheist.

My boyfriend happened, haha.
We've known eachother since April and he's the first atheist i've ever met (that i know of anyway). He used to be mormon (even went on his mission) and just "lost his faith" a couple of years ago. Honestly, i really couldn't fathom how someone could lose their faith after being so "hardcore". It made no sense to me at all.

He didn't pressure me or anything, but i did like to talk about faith/religion with him. I felt like he knew where i was coming from because he's been super relgious...but i didn't understand him at all. So i asked to borrow a book of his (Losing faith in faith). Read it.

I have always been a pretty liberal christian. Well, mostly anyway, i've definately had my "greater than thou" periods of time (as i like to call 'em) - but for the most part i kinda just did my own thing. I wasn't very strict.

At first the book really offended me, but then it started making a lot of sense. I guess i never really read the Bible or payed attention. When i would read it i'd only read new testament. In short there is a LOT of offensive things in there. The God of the Bible is NOT the God i learned about in church. I no longer found anything loving about him. Just scary. I read another book (Born again skeptics), had debates with my bf...did some internet research, etc. etc.

I just came to conclude that it is very unlikely that a God exists.

So in total it took me about 2 months to go from "I'm a christian" to "I'm an atheist". And really, i was claiming i was agnostic for a couple weeks there, or actually just referring to myself as a "nothing"...but i'm reading "The God Delusion" and in it the author lists the "levels" (theist-atheist) and reading the descriptions i realized i'm definately an atheist.

That's my story


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## mudmama

new here. and subbing.

I grew up going to a Christian church every Sunday, youth group, church camp, all that stuff, till I was 16. I knew it wasn't for me. but only recently, I'm 33, am I searching for my true self and have had the guts to let people know where i stand. "No we don't go to church."

Little story, cute; my dd refused a sticker being handed out at a parade that said "Jesus loves you." She took it, read it, and handed it right back to the christian clown without saying a word. so proud.

We live in a very religious community. My dd goes to public school. last yr the kids told her she would go to hell b/c she told them she didn't believe in God. She says it to grandma too. Which breaks my moms heart. Ouch. I dont' think dd understands what hell is to christians, so she didnt cry about it, but she did ask some questions and feel un-accepted with her friends.

I'm off to find these books youre all talking about, read and research.
Yeah for this thread!


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## Bad Horse

Oh, beansmama, I had to go back to make sure, but I remembered your thread from when you & your bf started dating









Welcome to the dark side! We have candy!







:


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## christifav

New here, too.

I'll try to keep the intro short.

Grew up christian. Active member of Unity church throughout my adult life. Married an atheist who never once pressured me or tried to "talk me out" of religion. When I tried to talk about it with him, he simply said, "I just don't believe in god." He never, ever wanted to be responsible for my losing faith.

I prayed literally every day for my family. then in Nov 06 dh was hit by a car and lost his left foot. I began questioning. 18 months later, I finally accepted atheism. The book "Atheist Universe" sealed the deal for me. Now, thinking about just how small Earth and Humans are in the grand scheme of things, I don't see how any Earthly religions could possibly be right.

I guess I'm a "mild" atheist b/c I do not know if there is a supernatural being responsible for this whole universe we live in, but I certainly do not think there is a god watching my every move and deciding what my punishment or reward may be in a future life.

I say "bleh-shoe" when someone sneezes. We also say "j___ c___" a lot when we're upset, so I wouldn't exactly call us a model family.


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## avivaelona

Quote:

It's so ridiculous that MY personal beliefs don't count...but a religion picking beliefs for me do! It feels like it's okay in the state's eyes that the religion keeps your child from being vaxed...but the parent?! Heck no...that's just crazy, apparently
I'm so glad I found this thread because I'm feeling so much like this...have to turn in the "religious exemption" tomorrow because of ONE vaccine that I don't want DS to get yet because of the poor science behind the state recommending it. No one seems to get how distasteful this is to me and DH, that somehow belief in good science means we are religious. Or what if we just believed that the substances used to make the vaccine were morally wrong? Do I have to be religious to have a moral objection? The one thing I have objections to on religious grounds is being asked to defend my choices for my child on religious grounds. It makes me angry.

Oh I say Geshundheit because I grew up with it. But I have no objection to saying "bless you"

I have a question too, what do you all do about teaching your children about what god and churches and such are? I have a curious three year old, and he just loves bell towers and bells and clocks so he really tends to notice church buildings and town halls and of course he figured out one day that I was saying there was a difference between a church and a town hall, and asked me what the difference was, and I had no idea what to tell him.

Do most of you not celebrate holidays? We don't carry our atheism that far and are a mixed background couple so we celebrate both the Jewish Holidays and the Major christian ones, I don't really have trouble explaining the holidays without talking about the religious parts but I'm not looking forward to explaining what "mommy is Jewish, Daddy grew up Quaker, Nana is Episcopalian" means when he's so young. How have you talked about religion with your own young children? (or is that an off limits topic?)


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## siobhang

Quote:


Originally Posted by *avivaelona* 

I have a question too, what do you all do about teaching your children about what god and churches and such are? I have a curious three year old, and he just loves bell towers and bells and clocks so he really tends to notice church buildings and town halls and of course he figured out one day that I was saying there was a difference between a church and a town hall, and asked me what the difference was, and I had no idea what to tell him.

well, we go to a UU church (me and the boys - my dh does not), so my kids know what a church is.

Curious to hear what those who do not attend a church do.


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## Mommoo

New here, just found you! I will introduce with more detail at another time. It's bed time for me!







Happy to have found this thread.

Tricia


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## jaidymama

I think of what to teach my son about other people's beliefs the same I would think of any kind of belief... that families make different choices and believe different things. Honestly, some of the most beautiful buildings are churches so I think it's important to honor the the beauty of a building and perhaps admire someone's dedication to creating it. (that might be more than what I would say, perhaps going overboard... but in general I would want to be nonjudgmental and find the positive in a situation.) I tell my ds that they are churches where people meet, sing songs, tell stories and pray. Even if I don't choose this for myself or my family, I do know that many people find great comfort from their religious activities.

Bottomline, to me it would be a simple message from an educational perspective... rather than bringing any frustrating baggage or personal criticism of Christianity... I believe strongly in letting a child come to their own opinions.


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## Monarchgrrl

Hi! New and subbing.

Not-so-short-intro:

Mom was Wiccan (high priestess) and pretty much raised us that way, without forcing it. THAT was an interesting life growing up in the bible belt.









I'm athiest/agnostic. Not 100% sure which yet. I believe in reincarnation, if I have to believe in something, but not a god. I don't really ever think about religion or spirituality. I just know no ones knows the "truth" and that we can't really know til we know, ya know?









My DW is Catholic, more in traditions/culture than practicing. I'm not sure what it's called but she's one of those liberal catholics, not old school. She's very very private about her religion and it hasn't ever caused any issues with us. We've even decided to tell our future kids about all religions and let them know what each of us believes, but we won't be bringing them up in any way, with any beliefs whatsoever.

(Side note about us first dating):
We had been getting to know each other and really really liked each other and wanted something serious and then she came out...as Catholic! I was like







Then I told her what I was.







: She had never wanted to date and non-Catholic and I had "vowed" to never date a religious person again. Well, life sure is funny sometimes!! I used to be very not tolerant of "believers" because of so many bad experiences, but she had to come along and give me some tolerance.









We say salud for sneezes.

Anyway, I'm glad to join this tribe!







:


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## bjorker

Hi everyone. I have a question for you all.

I'm wondering what you all think and feel about explaining or mentioning death to a young child. We recently had a death in the family. It's not one that effects myself or my dd (3.5 years) too terribly much in terms of not seeing this person anymore, however it does effect my mother a great deal, as it was her brother. And we've been going through and sorting his stuff, making various plans, etc. My mom gave her a few trains that she found in his apartment. Thus, my dd knows something is up, and mentions him. Tonight she asked me where he was, and when his Birthday was. I realised that I needed to tell her something, but was having a hard time figuring out exactly what to say. I looked online for appropriate ideas, but of course everything is all god-ly. I did find some things, like this post/comments in agnosticmom.com, which was interesting, but I'd love to hear what you all have to say.

This is mostly for my own curiosity at this point. I said something very simple and to-the-point to dd when she asked where he was, and she moved onto the next subject. It is very important to me to just tell her the truth as much as I can, but she's still a bit young to understand too much. Luckily, it wasn't really an issue.

Any of you have experience with this? What did you say? What do you think you would say? How does this change with the age of your child/ren?


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## mudmama

My uncle recently passed away too. Explaining it to my 7 yo was simple. Told her what happened in simple terms; he died from an awful disease called cancer that people can get and we don't really know what happens to his spirit. This is what some people believe and this is what mama believes and this is what happens to his body, etc. She's at the age were I think she can grasp the idea. My 3 yo, I didn't explain anything. They both saw him getting sick, going to the hospital, mama crying. "Why are you crying, mama?" "B/c I'll miss uncle R and I'm sorry he has to be in pain." The kids have teddy bears of his to remember him and we named them after his first and last names.


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## jaidymama

We have had many deaths in our family since ds has been alive really with my grandma dying a few months after he was born. Really he's had to come with us to the funerals/receptions as we have had to travel for each. Although the first one we had a friend of the family hold him while we were in the service... Anyways, the most recent was well 3 funerals in the last year... Starting with my grandpa who my ds had gotten to know. He was old and died from pneumonia or something.

We told ds that when our bodies get old and worn out they stop working. Ds was not at the funeral part, but did go to the gravesite and the reception following. The 2nd funeral we went to the gravesite and the reception and the third funeral, we actually went to the viewing of the body.... I wasn't going to bring him in but my aunt & uncle were asking to see him. So dh and ds came in and stood near the back of the room... Although my ds did see a boy sleeping in a box. I did not tell him that the boy was dead. Ds and Dh came to the reception of that funeral. Mostly all those times I felt like the grief was so huge, and I needed to have time to tend to my own grief without trying to be strong for my ds.

Basically all we've ever told him is that sometimes people die when their bodies stop working. Then I guess we haven't really talked about the rest of it in terms of beliefs. Since we don't really know what happens or believe in any particular thing that happens after death, we just keep it to the superficial observations. I guess we do say that some people are really sad because they won't get to see that person anymore. But we can think of that person and remember the fun we had together. I guess I don't lead a very spiritual life regardless of beliefs or non beliefs. Somehow I personally don't have the answer to what happens after we're buried or cremated... but I do like to think that my grandparents are supporting me in spirit... To me, I'm not concerned about what happens after. Maybe that will change.

But for kids, it depends on what they are ready to know and what you are prepared to tell them. I don't believe in keeping them in the dark, yet I think simple is best.


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## jaidymama

Parenting in a world where the politicians are almost required to hold some kind of "God" faith... How does that fit into our family lives? Perhaps this is just my stretch at commenting on how many people referenced the bible during the DMC... and I can imagine it would be similar at the RNC... I'm not offended by it... I think that there is some wisdom in the bible, but that's a different story... there are lots of religious books with wisdom...

Ok, so really though what about kids who do not claim a god? Do they live a life in the shadows? Not coming out so to speak? I remember that father in ??? California who fought to get the pledge changed, and what an uproar they caused for believers. So if a child claims similar nonbeliefs as parents or by himself/herself what room is there in the world?


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## christifav

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jaidymama* 
Parenting in a world where the politicians are almost required to hold some kind of "God" faith... How does that fit into our family lives? Perhaps this is just my stretch at commenting on how many people referenced the bible during the DMC... and I can imagine it would be similar at the RNC... I'm not offended by it... I think that there is some wisdom in the bible, but that's a different story... there are lots of religious books with wisdom...

Ok, so really though what about kids who do not claim a god? Do they live a life in the shadows? Not coming out so to speak? I remember that father in ??? California who fought to get the pledge changed, and what an uproar they caused for believers. So if a child claims similar nonbeliefs as parents or by himself/herself what room is there in the world?

I am peeved by the references to religion in the current election campaign. Personally, I want my politicians to get their guidance from the Constitution, not the bible. I probably can't say any more about why I have such distaste for that (and most other) books of faith without violating the UA.

I did just watch an ABC news story (not sure how old it was) about a girl in OK who was ostracized from her school after she refused to say the lord's prayer at a basketball game. It is disgusting what some of the believers did to this poor teenager. I wouldn't mind religion if it was ALL about love and compassion, but it gets perverted in the minds of many.


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## User101

Hi ladies. I wanted to ask if you would rather stay here in FYT or move to Spirituality. As long as you're discussing cultural issues rather than issues of faith (including critiques of other belief systems), you're welcome to stay here in FYT. But if you would rather move to Spirituality, that's OK too. Just discuss it amongst yourselves and let me know which would suit you better. Thanks!


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## Monarchgrrl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 
Hi ladies. I wanted to ask if you would rather stay here in FYT or move to Spirituality. As long as you're discussing cultural issues rather than issues of faith (including critiques of other belief systems), you're welcome to stay here in FYT. But if you would rather move to Spirituality, that's OK too. Just discuss it amongst yourselves and let me know which would suit you better. Thanks!









Doesn't matter to me, either way. I'll follow it. So, if we moved to Spirituality, we would have the _option_ of discussing issues of faith (or our lack-of) or critiques of faiths? Although less people would probably join or see us there. Up to ya'll!


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## almadianna

well do we belong there?
i mean many atheists describe atheism as a lack of spirituality...

i dont want to get into an isuue as to what it means or not i am just thinking aloud here...


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## ferretfan

hi









can i join?

i grew up in a very secular environment in the UK, although my primary school (read: grade) was church of england, as are most, so we said prayers and sang hymns every day, and celebrated the christian holidays. i learnt all about god and jesus and all that other fun stuff. but as i grew my interest turned to the dark side of it, the devil, demons, and hell, and i managed to scare my mum pretty good with all my carryings on







then as i grew more i realized i was an atheist

i now live in the US with catholic raised dh (seems everyone in these parts are catholic) who is now best described as agnostic. we didnt baptise our dd and the inlaws about flipped







and because we dont vax either MILs comment was "you'd better pray that nothing happens to that baby". ummmm, yah, because babies always go to hell when they're not baptised.....

dd is a few weeks shy of 3. i am wondering how she's going to react to the prayers that dh's family say when we all have (rare) meals together. she's at that age now where she's curious about things.

we have addressed the death issue with her. last year one of our ferrets died and we told her that it went to live in the sky. she was only just two at the time and i was at a loss of what to say to her when she noticed her pet wasn't there any more. i didnt' want to pull the 'heaven' card atall, but didn't want to say anything that might be scary to her little mind.

she still talks about that ferret, and now we've elaborated our explanation of it's whereabouts to stating that some people believe that when you die you go to a place called heaven, and some people think that you come back as another animal or person, and some people think it's just like being asleep forever. we also told her that noone knows for sure because noone comes back from the dead, and dead is forever. i didnt really want to focus on my beliefs just yet. i dont have problem with her learning about different belief systems, but i want to do it in a very objective manner and i dont think she's ready yet.

we do say 'bless you' for a sneeze (or a fart







). i never really gave it much thought, it's habit.


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## siobhang

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 
Hi ladies. I wanted to ask if you would rather stay here in FYT or move to Spirituality. As long as you're discussing cultural issues rather than issues of faith (including critiques of other belief systems), you're welcome to stay here in FYT. But if you would rather move to Spirituality, that's OK too. Just discuss it amongst yourselves and let me know which would suit you better. Thanks!









can we have two threads? One in spirituality for questions on spiritual atheism/atheism and religion, etc. and here for more day-to-day discussions?


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## Ms. Mom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
can we have two threads? One in spirituality for questions on spiritual atheism/atheism and religion, etc. and here for more day-to-day discussions?

Yes, because your looking for two different areas to focus on. Feel free to start a thread in Spirituality.


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## siobhang

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jacque Savageau* 
Yes, because your looking for two different areas to focus on. Feel free to start a thread in Spirituality.

there was one - I'll go bump it.

Or maybe it was in religious studies...


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## siobhang

bumped the "Can We Talk About Atheism/Agnosticism?" thread in religious studies for those interested.


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## pookel

Subbing.


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## Mommoo

Subbing also.

I'll introduce myself in detail now.

I was raised Roman Catholic and remember when I was 13 I found a little card in a friend's room that said something about being christian. I said "hey, I thought you were catholic" she responded "I am, you're christian too!" I was like, no way man, I've never heard that before.

I remember another time when I was around 10 and I told my mother that I wasn't sure if I believed in god, and if I did, I didn't like him.

So I basically turned away from the church until I was 18 and an au-pair in Switzerland. I guess you could say I became a born again Christian. I met a group of a Christian au-pairs and I eventually started going to bible study with them. They were neat girls and I was so easily influenced! I just wanted friends and didn't really have a personal stance on anything in life.
I had a physical and emotional experience during a conversation about Jesus and I thought, wow, I felt the holy spirit! So I did the non-denominational-evangelical thing for a bit. Totally alienated myself from my punk-rock friends back home, and my family thought I had been brainwashed. I became a bible thumper. Trying to share my joyous knowledge with everyone. Wanting everyone I loved to see the truth.

Fast forward a few years and I fell in love with an agnostic. We both tried to make sense of our different beliefs. He was super into Carlos Castaneda stuff and I was all about Jesus.







Eventually we read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn. We were both all over it, but I was still trying to make it fit my Christian mold. Eventually it broke the mold and I was released from my state of ignorance. I mean, I was the kind of Christian who believed that Jesus died for my sins and that only through believing in him and giving myself to him could I be freed from my sins. That he did rise from the dead and all of the other stuff the bible says.

So, now I find myself in a relationship with my DP, who was raised Lutheran by a father who is a Lutheran Pastor. We essentially have the same beliefs, but DP is really into the whole community of church, and message of Jesus thing.

Nice to meet you all!! I look forward to reading the thread over in spirituality.


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## avivaelona

personally I'm just much more interested in the cultural aspects and how to live peaceably and with mutual respect among those of other religious belief, I think atheism can encompass a wide variety of spiritualities and for me those are mostly private anyway. I think two threads are a good idea but I'd be interested in this one mostly I think (well we'll see) .

To the previous poster who suggested just talking about other religions with respect, to my three year old, thanks for the attempt but I think what I'm getting at is much more simple..like literally how to explain what a church building is for, or what people even mean when they say "god" to a little person who asks questions that are hard to answer at his vocabularly level. My son is very verbal for his age so I can talk to him about things but he still only has a three year olds knowledge of the world. So it isn't that he is coming to me saying "Jimmy says he's christian, who is Jesus?" its that he says "mommy what's a "Church"" and I have no idea how to answer him because all of the words you would use to describe what a church is for are just as foreign to him as the word Church is.

As far as death, when our kitty died we told him that the part of her that made her be alive was gone, even though everything else was **** there she wouldn't be able to walk or eat or do anything anymore. So he started asking lots of questions about what part it was, and asked if she still had every part of her body. So we added that there was something in people or animals that makes them be alive, and that some people think that is just energy and other people think that there is something called a soul or spirit that is a seperate part of them and goes somewhere else when you die. That some people think it goes to a place and other people think it just dissolves into the ground or the air. He said that he has a seperate part of him that is a spirit and it lives right next to his brain in his head, and pointed to a very specific spot on his head, so for him he's got it figured out


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## jaidymama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *avivaelona* 
personally I'm just much more interested in the cultural aspects and how to live peaceably and with mutual respect among those of other religious belief, I think atheism can encompass a wide variety of spiritualities and for me those are mostly private anyway. I think two threads are a good idea but I'd be interested in this one mostly I think (well we'll see) .

To the previous poster who suggested just talking about other religions with respect, to my three year old, thanks for the attempt but I think what I'm getting at is much more simple..like literally how to explain what a church building is for, or what people even mean when they say "god" to a little person who asks questions that are hard to answer at his vocabularly level. My son is very verbal for his age so I can talk to him about things but he still only has a three year olds knowledge of the world. So it isn't that he is coming to me saying "Jimmy says he's christian, who is Jesus?" its that he says "mommy what's a "Church"" and I have no idea how to answer him because all of the words you would use to describe what a church is for are just as foreign to him as the word Church is.

As far as death, when our kitty died we told him that the part of her that made her be alive was gone, even though everything else was **** there she wouldn't be able to walk or eat or do anything anymore. So he started asking lots of questions about what part it was, and asked if she still had every part of her body. So we added that there was something in people or animals that makes them be alive, and that some people think that is just energy and other people think that there is something called a soul or spirit that is a seperate part of them and goes somewhere else when you die. That some people think it goes to a place and other people think it just dissolves into the ground or the air. He said that he has a seperate part of him that is a spirit and it lives right next to his brain in his head, and pointed to a very specific spot on his head, so for him he's got it figured out









So I always try to keep it boiled down to something that makes sense to my child. Like the bare bones (sans rhetoric)

here's what one website said the definition of these are...
Church: a building for public Christian worship.
God: the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.

My take on these:
Church: a building where people meet to talk, sing and pray.
God: someone who some people [Christians] believe made the world--all the animals, plants and people. It's not someone we can see, hear or touch.
Jesus: a man who lived a long time ago. There are books written about him and what he did in his life. He is important to people who are Christians; they believe he was their leader.

Meal prayers with family. I don't say anything to my ds except ask him to be quiet. He hasn't asked what it is. If it comes up I will tell him it's their way of saying thanks for the food.


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## jaidymama

I think there is merit in having a separate thread to discuss actual theology of atheism/agnosticism. Whereas I think a thread for parenting a child with these beliefs would and has been useful. I know in our life we have gone a nonconventional route as far as both of our families are concerned... so I find I'm in uncharted waters. In some way I feel relieved that there's a group of moms online whom I can ask questions to about these unique parenting challenges that might and do arise.

Not to mention these are things that I wouldn't receive support about from family and friends. And it's not like there's an atheist church where everyone meets up IRL and we would automatically know those people have similar beliefs.

For me, this thread is a nice resource. And I will visit the spirituality one if I feel the need to delve into a different kind of discussion.


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## siobhang

My definitions I have used with my kids - I am an anthropologist so that definitely influences my definitions.

Church: a community of like minded people who gather to talk, celebrate, commiserate, etc. The building they gather in is also called a church - it can also be called a temple or other word. We go to church - our UU church.

God: the sense that there is something bigger and more important than us as individuals. We sometimes ask God for help, when we need something beyond what we feel we have internally. Sometimes God is portrayed as a person who can talk to you or who is watching your actions, but those are just stories. God is an idea, not a thing or person.

Jesus: a teacher who lived a long time ago who said many wise and important things to help us live our lives better. There are many stories told about Jesus, some of which are true and some of which aren't, which talk about his life and his good deeds.

I want to get across the idea that God is a metaphor for many important ideas and feelings we humans all share. God does not need to be literally true, and Jesus does not need to be the Christ, in order for some of the concepts and emotions in religion to be valid and helpful to us as ethical beings.

In addition, dh and I need standard definitions that resonate with our kids when they hear "God bless America" or "Thank you, Jesus!", which they do hear a lot ('tis an election season, after all...).

I look forward to hearing what others say.


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## jaidymama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
My definitions I have used with my kids - I am an anthropologist so that definitely influences my definitions.

Church: a community of like minded people who gather to talk, celebrate, commiserate, etc. The building they gather in is also called a church - it can also be called a temple or other word. We go to church - our UU church.

God: the sense that there is something bigger and more important than us as individuals. We sometimes ask God for help, when we need something beyond what we feel we have internally. Sometimes God is portrayed as a person who can talk to you or who is watching your actions, but those are just stories. God is an idea, not a thing or person.

Jesus: a teacher who lived a long time ago who said many wise and important things to help us live our lives better. There are many stories told about Jesus, some of which are true and some of which aren't, which talk about his life and his good deeds.

I want to get across the idea that God is a metaphor for many important ideas and feelings we humans all share. God does not need to be literally true, and Jesus does not need to be the Christ, in order for some of the concepts and emotions in religion to be valid and helpful to us as ethical beings.

In addition, dh and I need standard definitions that resonate with our kids when they hear "God bless America" or "Thank you, Jesus!", which they do hear a lot ('tis an election season, after all...).

I look forward to hearing what others say.

I really like these, thanks!


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## spruce

.


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## KatWrangler

I am here!


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## starlein26

I'm still here!


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## expat-mama

Anyone seen the trailers for "Religulus"???

If not search for it on Youtube. It's documentary on religion from an atheists point of view...or something along those lines, but as it's hosted by Bill Mahr and directed by the guy who directed "Borat", it'll be pretty funny.
I think it's coming out this October and IMHO it looks like it will be highly entertaining!


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## KMK_Mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *expat-mama* 
Anyone seen the trailers for "Religulus"???

If not search for it on Youtube. It's documentary on religion from an atheists point of view...or something along those lines, but as it's hosted by Bill Mahr and directed by the guy who directed "Borat", it'll be pretty funny.
I think it's coming out this October and IMHO it looks like it will be highly entertaining!









I can't wait to see this! It comes out on Friday.


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## starlein26

Quote:


Originally Posted by *expat-mama* 
Anyone seen the trailers for "Religulus"???

If not search for it on Youtube. It's documentary on religion from an atheists point of view...or something along those lines, but as it's hosted by Bill Mahr and directed by the guy who directed "Borat", it'll be pretty funny.
I think it's coming out this October and IMHO it looks like it will be highly entertaining!









Wow...sounds HIGHLY promising in the hilarious department.


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## voicegrrl

Saturday. Aww man...best movie of the year, maybe my life. It was so good. Can't wait to buy it when it's out on DVD. Can't wait till everyone here sees it!


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## jaidymama

Charlie Rose interviewed them last night on his show. Very interesting all that he has to say about the movie, and his experience. As much as it is supposed to be funny and entertaining, I think he really was trying to say something here. He also made commentary about the current presidential elections, and that for the last ??? many presidents it was almost a "requirement" to talk about that aspect of your life to get that voting base behind you.

He also commented about the European Culture is different from our own. that 50% of Italy claims to be atheist.


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## marieangela

Wanted to check in say I'm still here.
I would like to go see Religulus, too. I somehow found a great atheist, liberal friend through a mainstream mom's group and it's been great to be able to openly discuss politics (which indeed have somehow become quite rapped up in religion) with someone other than my family. We're going to try and take our pregnant selves out to see that movie sometime next week.


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## voicegrrl

There is definitely a message in the movie. Yes, I laughed non-stop, but the message is very clear. As an atheist, it was the first time I've seen a movie relating to religion that spoke everything I believe. The whole time I kept going "yeah that" and "that's what I think, too." Sometimes it was like Bill Mahar was taking the words right out of my head. Very reaffirming.


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## expat-mama

ooh! I can't wait to see it!
The reviews I read a little while ago were pretty negative. But that's to be expected. It seems these days it's impossible to be even the least bit critical or questioning of mainstream religion in the media or in general society without being attacked.








DH and I were watching a re-run episode of Seinfeld the other day. In the show, Elaine was dating Putty and borrowed his car. She was surprised to find that all his radio stations were set to Christian stations and confronted him about it. Throughout the show there were funny pokes and jokes (nothing derogatory or hateful or anything like that, of course) about religious people AND non-religious people in the usual Seinfeld style. DH and I were commenting that this show aired originally about 10 years ago and if it were to air for the first time NOW I think people would be up in arms. It's interesting how things have changed.


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## newbie_mary

Just found this thread! yay!

I read somewhere recently that "spirituality" is a sense of connection with something -- could be other people, or nature, or the "divine" or whatever. I really liked that definition. I always was uncomfortable when people talked about spirituality, because I thought that it implied religion and so I thought I didn't have any, but this new definition made me realize that I am spiritual after all!

I told DS (2.5) that a church is a place where people go to meet, hear stories, and sing together. Not sure what I'll say when that isn't enough. I'm thinking of joining the UU church, though, because their religious education program seems to do a great job of introducing kids to all of the various ideas out there. I think he's too young to care much right now, but maybe when he gets a little older we'll try it out.


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## APMomOfKimmyN-Maya

:


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## sunnysideup

Hi all. I was on the old thread. Glad to find the new one.


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## Heathen Mama

Hi freethinking mamas.

I'm the world's biggest Bill Maher fan- I know a few people who run "in his circle" and I'm too starstruck to even ask for an introduction! I haven't seen Religulous yet- I can't leave the little one just yet.

I'm happy to be here.


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## pajamajes

I'm subbing. I've been an Atheist for about a year now; hardcore Christian before that. I'm interested in seeing how other people deal with the Atheist life, so to speak, especially in the "buy-bull" belt.


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## jaidymama

We saw Religulous this weekend, and it was different from what I was expecting. I think overall I liked it well enough, but there were a couple things that almost bothered me. Mostly I thought it would be funnier. There were funny parts, but really it seemed serious and almost angry/disgruntled. There were times when I thought Bill M went a little to far to antagonize someone he was interviewing--not all of the time, just a couple interviews. Also, it seemed to be highly edited, so I hope the interviews weren't over edited to enhance or create something that wasn't there. I was glad he was asking the questions, and bringing these ideas into "mainstream-ish" media. Perhaps some of his choices were to also make it entertaining, as well as a "documentary."


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## expat-mama

Hey all
I haven't seen Religulous yet BUT I have watched some documentaries by Richard Dawkins that are great- you can see them on YouTube:




He is a British scientist and is very driven to promote reason in opposition to religion. Watch and tell me what you think!

Also, I watched this lecture on YouTube that Sam Harris gave at the NY Society for Ethical Culture. It's *REALLY* good much better than the Dawkins stuff- and I want to read his book now. 



I like lectures, but if you don't just bear through the monotony of one guy talking for an hour and listen to his great ideas and arguments!
Watch and tell me what you think!








There are maybe 6 or 7 parts- the link is to the first part and you can find the rest of it on youtube.

I've also been reading a lot about humanism lately and have been happy to discover that I really ascribe to humanistic beliefs in so many ways. I like the humanistic parents' quote "Our children are beyond belief."








I think humanists have some great ideas and methods for parents and families to approach morals, ethics, and beliefs. It's interesting stuff.


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## Hatteras Gal

Just popping in to say Hi! Had a great chat with a friend the other week and we talked about our religious beliefs. I thought she knew mine and I assumed I knew hers. Turns out we're both on the same page. It's nice to have someone IRL (besides my dh) who feels the same way I do.


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## jaidymama

One point of view that Religulous puts out there is that if all these people are expecting the story in Revelations to actually happen then maybe they would be less likely to do something to stop it... (ie. it's normal) Where as look around us, the world has been warring and stealing and vandalising for centuries. I don't think current times are worse off, except that there is the A-bomb. which is a pretty big exception









So all that to say that I want to be part of something that is about love, making the planet a better and safer place... And of course depending on your twisted sense of humor there are probably millions of groups that say that is what they are about! I have heard a little about humanism, and also tend to agree.

In case you haven't seen Religulous, it pretty much confronts all the absurdities of different religions/beliefs. And it presents counter arguments and other factual information... For instance, how many of you knew that the story of a virgin birth is FAR from an original story. Now, who's to say why someone picked this up and ran with it... But I would doubt many Christians know this. And it's interesting what gets perpetuated again and again to children.

On a side note, did any of you see the senate race with Elizabeth Dole? Where she accused her opponent of being a supporter of Godless Americans? And the opponent made an advertisement saying she believed in God and was a sunday school teacher... Ugh!

Even though an African American won the white house, I think there still remains heavy discrimination in this country. I suppose we should just be so lucky that we're note beheaded for it....


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## AmandaGRB

Hi everyone! I just found this thread and wanted to say HI! I am still trying to figure out where I fit in with all this. But, I need some advice so I hope I am in the right place. I have come to the conclusion that I am at the very least agnostic and possibly atheist. It is hard to get over the label after growing up in the "Bible belt" and all that goes with that.

Anyway, we (my DH, 7 yo DS and myself) attended a church for about a year. It has been almost 2 years since we quit going. We had gone off and on for the first couple of years of DS's life, didn't go for a couple, went every Sunday for a year, then haven't been now for about 2. Clear as mud yet? All that to say, DS has been in Sunday school for about a year of his short life. But, apparently it was long enough. How do I undo what has been done? We (ds and I) were talking about Darwin the other day and he tells me he doesn't believe it, that God made everything. I asked him why he thought that and he starts telling me things that were said during Sunday school and how they told him if he didn't believe everything in the Bible he would be in big trouble with God and be punished.

I don't want to just run over him and try to force him to believe what I do, but I also don't want to reinforce what was taught in SS (based on fear). He was flipping through the cartoon channels the other day and came across this cartoon about different Saints. He watched some of it and came and asked me about it and said he really believed it and wanted to learn more. I am at a loss as to what to do. Can anyone help?

Amanda


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## malibusunny

I honestly don't think we can. I don't even know how to begin having this conversation without violating the UA in some way.

(am I the only person who reads "UA" as "urinalysis" instead of "user agreement?")


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## expat-mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *malibusunny* 
I honestly don't think we can. I don't even know how to begin having this conversation without violating the UA in some way.

I'm not sure we would be violating the UA as long as we weren't being speaking in a disrespectful way about religion or another member. That's a really tough situation. Maybe you could start slow with some science books for kids about evolution, dinosaurs, stuff like that if he is interested. Approach things from a different angle without talking about what you believe about religion or god. Maybe after a while you could tell your son what you believe about how the world came to be and that you don't believe that you or anyone will be punished for having different beliefs. Maybe there are other ways to slowly expose him to new ideas. If he is interested in things like saints and bible stories, you could encourage his interest while reinforcing that they are stories- you could even mix in a few books about greek myths and gods, native american creation stories etc., and explain how you think they are all nice stories. Fear can run deep though and it might take him a while to get over it. But a year of sunday school is only one year- he is still young so yes, that's a big portion of his life. But you have many years to come to teach him how you understand things and for him to use all the information to make his own decisions (not based on fear!) about what to believe. Best of luck.


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## malibusunny

I guess my concern (with the UA) is that the way I talk about religion to my child is bound to offend someone. I tell him things like "God is just pretend, like Santa Clause." We've talked about why you don't tell people Santa isn't real. We've talked about why you don't tell people that God isn't real, too. When he gets older, I'll deal with it differently, but for right now, it's pretty much the same thing.


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## marieangela

Speaking of what we tell our children about god, I haven't told mine anything yet. They are almost 6 and 3 1/2. I mentioned something to my dh the other night about the idea that maybe when they ask we can tell them that the bible is a story and god is a character/idea that some people think is real. Dh thinks that isn't the right thing to say, but isn't sure how we should approach it. I'd appreciate hearing other people's approaches.

Along those lines, it just generally seems hard to figure out what to say when we have opinions and ways of viewing things that would likely offend most of our children's friends and their families. My older son recently learned about Veteran's Day in school. He and my younger son are now both saying that when they get older they can fight in a war. I've been trying to tell them that I hope there won't be a war for them to fight in and that although many people in dh's family are veterans, I don't believe that war and armed services are the best answer for anything. And that I hope when they get older and understand it better, they will feel the same way. It is tough.


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## expat-mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *malibusunny* 
I guess my concern (with the UA) is that the way I talk about religion to my child is bound to offend someone.

Yah, I understand about that. I'm a bit unclear about what would be a red flag in a forum like this, even after reading the UA many many times.

In general, and not only on MDC, I honestly do my best to try not to offend people with my opinions and beliefs and when I have kids I'll teach them to do the same (it's interesting to hear about how you taught your kids about what to say about god and santa claus to others).
I find with religion, it's often a real double-standard. It's offensive or disrespectful for me to say "I think religion and god are bunk and this is why I think so" to someone who may be religious, but it's perfectly fine for someone to say things that I find totally offensive and disrespectful like, "If you don't believe in my god or what I believe, you will burn in hell for eternity" etc. Just yesterday, I politely told a man on the street who handed me a pamphlet and warned me about my "burning soul" that I found it very rude and offensive for him to give me such a thing. *sigh* It's a tough situation and I usually find it bit unfair coming from the atheist's side.

I'm not sure exactly how those things work on MDC, there a quite a few active and zealous religious members and tribes- I think the moderators have a difficult job but just try their best to deal with such a diverse community.

I don't think people really think about how saying something they are taught in their religion may be offensive to others who are not part of that religious tradition. And it's generally acceptable in western society to use language entrenched in religious ideas- something I sometimes find offensive in casual use. (An interesting aside- recently, I was reading about the arabic language and you literally can't speak arabic without constantly making religious references to god etc., it is part of the language.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *marieangela* 
My older son recently learned about Veteran's Day in school. He and my younger son are now both saying that when they get older they can fight in a war. I've been trying to tell them that I hope there won't be a war for them to fight in and that although many people in dh's family are veterans, I don't believe that war and armed services are the best answer for anything. And that I hope when they get older and understand it better, they will feel the same way. It is tough.









Goodness...It sounds like you are saying/doing the best you can. I can't yet imagine how it will be when I have little ones coming home and springing things like that on me. If only there weren't things like wars and religion and politics...just my wishful thinking







I get so many ideas from other mamas of how I might handle things when the time comes for me...It does sound tough!


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## User101

Hey, mamas. I was pointed to this thread because you were having some problems determining if you were within the UA. You're fine.







If you have any questions, please feel free to PM a moderator or an admin. Thanks!


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## expat-mama

just bumping us back to the first page!


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## starlein26

Quote:


Originally Posted by *marieangela* 
Speaking of what we tell our children about god, I haven't told mine anything yet.

Same here. I'll wait for their questions.


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## APMomOfKimmyN-Maya

I just started up a secular homeschooling group a few weeks ago with some other secular/free thinking homeschooling moms in my town.


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## christifav

Quote:


Originally Posted by *APMomOfKimmyN-Maya* 
I just started up a secular homeschooling group a few weeks ago with some other secular/free thinking homeschooling moms in my town.









I would love to find such a group in any town I'm in, but since I move every few years, that would be tough! 

I hate how everyone assumes you're homeschooling b/c you're religious. I'd like to homeschool so my kids get taught FACT, not the white christian American permutation of the truth that is so prevalent in public schools. FWIW, as I learn more about our Founding Fathers and the beginnings of America I am appalled at the "stories" I was taught in school.

Now that it is the "holiday season", how are you teaching your kids to respond to Christmas and all the "family traditions" that go along with it? I suppose it is easy enough to teach them to politely say, "thank you" when someone says "merry Christmas" or "happy Hanukkah" and hope that is the end of it.

On a lighter note, DH found some awesome winter season cards that say, "Axial Tilt: the Reason for the Season". LOL


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## jaidymama

In my community there is a huge faith-based homeschooling group, although they claim everyone is welcome... So I think it is mostly Christian families, but they don't necessarily get into discussing the bible when they meet. And there was an unschooling group that was mostly a yahoo group, although it wasn't very active. One weekend lots of emails were flying around with hopes of becoming really active. I met with them once, and they all had older kiddos and since then the online activity has been zero.

Anyways, I hadn't heard from the faith-based group either. Although my ds is only 4 so I think there's not a lot of organized hs'ing going on for that age. But I was hoping to meet other kiddos who are at home... I would be interested to learn the difference between what is taught in school, and more factual information so to speak. For instance, I am surprised to keep finding quotes from founding fathers about separation of church and state, and their fears about government and banking getting to much mixed together... I often hear the christian base talk about the founding fathers putting god in the constitution because this is a "christian" nation. Yet around the election there were discussions about different segments of people, including the % that are non-religious which seemed fairly considerate. I find it hard to fit in with religious people because they seem less tolerant of my views than I somehow need to be of theirs. That carries into my concerns about my son living outside the norm... He asked how people grew before there were people... and I had my dh talk to him about evolution... ha!! can you imagine how many other children are told about Adam & Eve?? All this to say that even though we have freedom of religion in this country it is assumed that we all are supposed to have one, and our children are being discriminated against.

That's one of the reasons I do talk to my son about all types of beliefs that people have--especially surrounding Christmas time. I want him to know that other children have these beliefs... Sort of training him for religious tolerance.

I am lucky to live in a community where there are many liberal thinkers, various religious and non-religious beliefs. But I see predominantly that the christian base is growing strong here. Anyways, my son is still young so we have time to consider how to approach these issues and friendships. Although I have found even though none of my friends attended church or behaved church-like in college that they are all now really into it as parents/older adults... And unfortunately some of those relationships have been strained because of our different beliefs. I think it's sad, and again, how am I to approach this in terms of my own son and his friends. One neighbor in particular has a playmate the same age as my son, and they are definitely Christian. And I have found myself purposefully avoiding church topics are being vague so as not to lose them as a friend for myself and my son. When it came out about my dh's past religious beliefs that he no longer has, I mentioned that all of dh's family here are catholics... as if somehow I needed to say something that would seem like we are NOT without religion. Even though dh is more open about his non-beliefs, we both tend to keep it to ourselves... a little like living in a closet, eh? Again, all of these things filter down to our ds, and I just don't know if it's the right thing to do to have him jumping through hoops or pacifying grandma or trying to fit in with friends with different beliefs. .... Ok, done with my rant. I will add that I'm glad for supposed separation of church and state so at least religion isn't generally talked about at school or work places.

Happy Thanksgiving!


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## siobhang

Quote:


Originally Posted by *marieangela* 
Speaking of what we tell our children about god, I haven't told mine anything yet. They are almost 6 and 3 1/2. I mentioned something to my dh the other night about the idea that maybe when they ask we can tell them that the bible is a story and god is a character/idea that some people think is real. Dh thinks that isn't the right thing to say, but isn't sure how we should approach it. I'd appreciate hearing other people's approaches.

My kids are 5 and 3. I feel it is important to define God because they hear the word all the time - "god bless", "god damn it", "for god's sake", etc etc etc.

And I hate the default "well, some people believe" definitions that we non-believers often fall into. Sure, some people believe all sorts of things but my kids need to know what WE believe, and what we believe should not be defined as an absence of belief or in negation to other people's beliefs. there is time enough for them to learn that other people believe differently than us - but I think the biggest failing of Atheists/agnostics as well as UUs (we are UU) is a failure to instill in our kids what WE believe is true about the universe.

Because frankly, our murky, unclear adult concepts are a hard match against clear, black and white definitions of the world that many religious groups offer. For a 5 year old, the idea of a guy in the sky with a white beard is pretty compelling (especially if he also gives you gifts at Christmas!). And studies have shown that if you DO not teach your child about god by age 5, they will create their own image, even if they don't ask. We live in a pretty Christian centric society in the US - it is in our every day language and cultural references - so it is not surprising that kids pick this stuff up even without us teaching it to them.

For us, God is a metaphor for a desire for control or good fortune. When people ask for God's help or say "god bless america", they are asking for good things to happen to them and the people they care about. They are acknowledging that some things are outside their control, that this is a scary fact, and that asking for God's help is a way to counter the lack of control.

I would love for a more concrete definition of God appropriate for an atheist 5 year old, but this is the best I can come up with for the moment.

We also define Jesus as a teacher who lived a long time ago who taught us many wise things. That when people ask for Jesus's help, they are really asking themselves for the wisdom that Jesus had, and to think about what is ethical and strong thing to do. This definition I feel better about as it is pretty concrete and valid.

Siobhan


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## Vespertina

Quote:


Originally Posted by *marieangela* 
Speaking of what we tell our children about god, I haven't told mine anything yet.

We've yet to tell ours, but then again, they're only 4 (next month) and 2. DH is an atheist, but is rather apathetic and would have me discuss matters like this. I'm ignostic when it comes to classical theism and much of traditional theism. They probably wouldn't grasp the whole "what is meant by god?" question 'til much later. Before going any further into the discussion about deities or gods that would have to be tackled. Until then, we pretty much figured that if they're still at the age where they believe Santa is real, then talk about the supernatural and deities found in ancient mythologies would be kept to a minimum.

I'm new here and have lurked from time to time.


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## expat-mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jaidymama* 
I find it hard to fit in with religious people because they seem less tolerant of my views than I somehow need to be of theirs.

Sort of training him for religious tolerance.

Siobhan

I also find it hard to fit in with religious people for the same reason. I'm perfectly capable of holding my tongue when I hear others talk about things that I think are absurd or whatever, but I find many people who are religious feel OBLIGATED and highly justified to try to impose whatever beliefs they have on me. This makes me very angry. Why is it ok for religious people to knock on my door or hand me flyers about something I don't believe in and concepts that I find disturbing (hell, punishment, sin, "evil", etc.) but I'm not allowed to do the same? Can you imagine handing out pamphlets about atheism? Knocking on doors to spread that news that "There is no God and it's okay"? I think one might expect to get hurt...







:

As for "religious tolerance"- I plan to teach my children to respect other people no matter what they think or believe. People, no matter what, deserve to be treated humanely and with respect. However, I think "religious tolerance" has gone a bit far in some ways. Should we be tolerant of people who preach hate or war, suicide for a cause, who teach that some people are better than others (for example, gays or people of another religion) or that some people will suffer eternal and painful punishment just because of who they are? I don't think so. These days, it's harder and harder to draw the line with so many fundamentalist groups and religion becoming more and more of a deadly and divisive force in our world. (Sam Harris wrote about this in his book and spoke about it in this lecture.)
I'm hesitant to teach my children to be tolerant of views that can be so closely related to and intermingled to concepts that I think are wrong.







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *christifav* 
I'd like to homeschool so my kids get taught FACT, not the white christian American permutation of the truth that is so prevalent in public schools. FWIW, as I learn more about our Founding Fathers and the beginnings of America I am appalled at the "stories" I was taught in school.

On a lighter note, DH found some awesome winter season cards that say, "Axial Tilt: the Reason for the Season". LOL

I think the exact same way about homeschooling. And I've also been appalled....

Love the card! Where'd you find them?







:


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## D'sMama

Hi! Can I join? I just found this tribe...

I'm an atheist, have been for a long time, although I said I was agnostic for the bulk of my life. My mom was raised Catholic but was never really practicing and calls herself "spiritual" now. Growing up, she took me to a couple different churches occasionally when she got hit with a bout of guilt, but it never stuck.







My dad has some odd/extreme beliefs that I won't get into for fear of a UAV - suffice it to say that his incessant proselytizing growing up is probably the biggest reason for me being atheist now. I remember, as a kid, thinking "you've got to be kidding me" when he would tell me things - one of the worst was that my best friend at one point was Muslim and he told me that since she wasn't Christian she was going to hell.








I thought that was ludicrous and offensive and really rude of him to say to me, so that pretty much sealed the deal.

Now I'm married to my DH, whose mother is some kind of Christian, but she's not really "religious", and whose father is Jewish. His dad's family varies a lot - some keep kosher, some only set foot in a synagogue for a bar mitzvah. DH himself is non-religious - he decided pretty young that (organized) religion was responsible for too much violence, etc. and didn't want any part of it. When I've asked him about his current beliefs though, he's kind of wishy-washy. I would peg him as an agnostic who leans toward believing there's something god-like out there. I can't get a straight answer out of him though.







:

Now we're about to have our first baby







so this stuff has been on my mind more (that and it's the holidays). My biggest annoyance is that people can be so presumptuous. We have a Jewish last name and live in an area with a lot of Jews, so people just assume we're Jewish.







We do celebrate Hanukkah (and Passover, etc.) with DH's family, but only because it's a family event. We also celebrate Christmas, but more as an American cultural holiday (read: consumerist







) - we do the tree and the presents and such but that's it.

I know we have lots of time before we'll need to address these issues with our baby, but it's great to hear how other people deal with it!


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## D'sMama

Oh, and can I vent a little here too?








Recently, because of the election and all that "Obama is Muslim" nonsense, I've been dealing with some, ahem, ill-informed family members who believe the chain emails they get. Well, it's turned into a preaching opportunity for one particular family member.







I was talking to my mother about it and said I wished I could just tell him "yo, I'm atheist, stop sending me bible quote forwards" and she said I shouldn't say that. Same thing with regards to a certain newborn practice common among Jews, and dealing with ILs who will expect it to be done, if our baby is a boy.









I _really_ get annoyed that I'm expected to keep my mouth shut about my beliefs (or non-beliefs) but I have to sit back and listen to everyone else spouting off about theirs. Why is it so wrong for me to be just as forthcoming/open/honest with family about what I believe as they are with me? I would never tell them they were wrong or shouldn't have their beliefs, but I just don't understand what's so bad about saying "I'm not Christian, I'm not Jewish, I don't believe in God." Why am I bad person if I say that? Total double-standard.







:

/end rant


----------



## christifav

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rachel616* 
I just don't understand what's so bad about saying "I'm not Christian, I'm not Jewish, I don't believe in God." Why am I bad person if I say that? Total double-standard.







:

/end rant

I totally agree! Even on Fox and Friends this morning (you know, the fair and balanced network) when discussing the Atheist sign in the Washington State building, the gal said, "Why do Christians have to suffer?

What??? How is having a little atheist representation side-by-side a nativity scene in a STATE BUILDING causing suffering? If it IS causing suffering, then wouldn't a Christian display without the corresponding Atheist display cause equal suffering to Atheists?

She went on to say, "next thing you know, they will want to put a Wicca display up". I sure hope the WA state Wicca jump on that.

Anyway, back to family...you should not have to make any apologies for your beliefs and if you prefer not to get into it with family, you could use the line, "you know what they say, never discuss politics or religion" as a way out.

Re: circumcision, go over to The Case Against Circumcision threads and you will find many, many supportive parents of varying faiths that can give you tips on dealing with family members who feel it is a religious or cultural necessity.

We found the Winter Solstice cards at zazzle dot com. I wish I could be a fly on the wall when my ultra-religious aunt opens hers and accuses my DH of brainwashing me.


----------



## ndakkitten

Just found this tribe, so figured I'd join in! Let's see how long I can make my intro!!!

I live in a rural town that is very Christian. (Kinda close to you HatterasGal, I think). I was raised Lutheran. My parents are semi-religious, but once I was old enough to know what the word "hypocrite" meant, I knew it applied to my parents! They go to church for appearances sake. Before that, I had a year or so where I actually "believed" but it didn't last long. I fought tooth & nail to keep from being sent to Sunday School, but still ended up getting confirmed in the Lutheran church. I started referring to myself as an agnostic in high school.

Then came college. I fell in love with a Catholic boy and ended up joining the Catholic church after we became engaged. Again, I believed for a while, but it didn't last. After we broke up, I had a pagan phase, but that only lasted for about a year.

So now I am back to the whole agnostic thing. My husband was a Christian who turned agnostic. Now he is exploring the whole pagan thing, which has made things a bit weird around our house. We are still celebrating Xmas, but like others here, its just a tradition...we don't discuss Jesus at all, only Santa! My husband is also arranging for a Yule celebration, and we are currently debating whether to have our children involved in the Yule ritual. I myself don't want to take part as I only interested in the history part of paganism, not the actual practice of it. I am just hoping all this doesn't confuse the kids too much.

So that's my story!


----------



## Nemesis

Quote:


Originally Posted by *expat-mama* 
I also find it hard to fit in with religious people for the same reason. I'm perfectly capable of holding my tongue when I hear others talk about things that I think are absurd or whatever, but I find many people who are religious feel OBLIGATED and highly justified to try to impose whatever beliefs they have on me. This makes me very angry. Why is it ok for religious people to knock on my door or hand me flyers about something I don't believe in and concepts that I find disturbing (hell, punishment, sin, "evil", etc.) but I'm not allowed to do the same? Can you imagine handing out pamphlets about atheism? Knocking on doors to spread that news that "There is no God and it's okay"? I think one might expect to get hurt...







:


ITA! I just had a conversation with a Christian friend the other day about this. My MIL used to openly pray for me to "accept Christ as my savior" and I told her how it offended me and asked her to stop. To get my point across I asked her how she would like it if I would "pray that she loses her faith" and she was appalled that I would even think a thing like that.

Umm... yeah, me too.









Then my friend went on and on about how she wouldn't be a "good christian" if she didn't want me to become a christian. Of course, since she thinks she's right, she wants EVERYONE to be christian.

OK. I don't think I'm RIGHT and everyone else is wrong. To be honest, I don't really care how everyone else thinks unless it is directly affecting me.. like if they're praying for me or trying to impose their morals on me.

Anyway.. they would not be tolerant at all of Athiest or Agnostic views.

And with that, HI! I'm new to this tribe. I lurk once in a while, but don't usually post.


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## rparker

Hi! I'm really excited to find this thread because I was beginning to think that there weren't any atheists/agnostics on MDC









I'm an extremely lapsed Catholic and an atheist. (I was thrown out of Catholic school.) My husband is some kind of vague deist/agnostic and extremely irreligious, but his family are all (very) practicing Methodists. Our daughter is 14 months old.

Does anyone have any experience with MOPS? At the hospital xmas party tonight the wife of another doctor strongly encouraged us to attend. I looked up the organization online because her description of the meetings didn't sound very AP-oriented (kids in one room with volunteer babysitters, moms in another) and it appears to be extremely Christian, but the woman who invited me didn't mention religion at all except to say that they met in a church. (That wasn't a red flag for me since a lot of LLL meetings are held in church buildings.)

Are some MOPS groups more secular than others or are they all pretty Jesus-centric? If it's just a mainstream mom's group I'd consider trying it because we're new in town and I'm a SAHM, but I'd rather avoid it if prayer or discussions of faith are going to be involved. (I'm also new to MDC, so if there is a forum where this question wouldn't be off-topic...)


----------



## marieangela

Not sure about MOPS. Found this when I looked on their website
http://www.mops.org/page.php?pageid=...inklist&src=78
I found a mom's group on meetup.com for my area. Their are a lot of different parenting styles, but I happened to make friends with one of the other atheists in the group. It was certainly nice to find a real life person (besides my dh) with similar religious views.

On another note- Can anyone recommend a book geared towards a kindergartener that explores multiple religions in an open way? I worry about what my older son picks up at school and am thinking it might be good to introduce the idea of religion to him in a general sort of way. I totally cringe when he recites the pledge of allegiance. My preschooler does, too, but instead of "under god", he say underdog! I don't correct him. Neither has asked me who or what god is, but I imagine it's coming soon.


----------



## jaidymama

A friend of mine in the seattle area was in a mops group... and she was in an active christian church... I don't know if there was a connection. There was one started in my community very recently. I tend to think it is NOT affiliated with religious groups, however, sometimes that's how the word spreads/who joins... I was interested in seeing what they are like.

As for books, check out this one... I haven't read it, but it might be what you're looking for:
http://www.ubah.com/ecommerce/detail...rch%3Dreligion


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## Nemesis

I have been to a few MOPS groups and they were religious. They open and close with prayer, and have a "steering team" to pray for anyone who needs praying for.

From what I've heard, some are more religious than others. I only went a few times because I wasn't comfortable with them telling Bible stories to the kids while they did little Moses coloring pages. Others are not like that, though. I think you'd have to just try it out and see.


----------



## expat-mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *marieangela* 

On another note- Can anyone recommend a book geared towards a kindergartener that explores multiple religions in an open way?

I guess I'm not really addressing specifically what you're looking for but this book , called Parenting Beyond Belief, and the "guidebook" by the same authors looks really promising and might have some ideas about how to talk to kids about these subjects. I plan on ordering them for my nursing library, so I can get some ideas years before my babe even thinks about asking me any questions!


----------



## KatWrangler

Quote:


Originally Posted by *expat-mama* 
I guess I'm not really addressing specifically what you're looking for but this book , called Parenting Beyond Belief, and the "guidebook" by the same authors looks really promising and might have some ideas about how to talk to kids about these subjects. I plan on ordering them for my nursing library, so I can get some ideas years before my babe even thinks about asking me any questions!

Thank you!







: These look like books I need.


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## provocativa

My kids are 5 and 2, and half my family are religious, so we do go to Christmas activities. We have taught them that we are not Christians, and that Christianity is there kind of make believe that they do, people have lots of kinds of these. God hasn't entered the picture yet, since my family is aware that if they get too Jesusy we will just not let them be around the kids. We call it winter celebration time and talk about all of the different celebrations around the world at this time and throughout history.


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## expat-mama

Some statistics about atheists I found pretty interesting.





I like to think that these statistics support my belief that an atheist world would be a more peaceful and enlightened place for all to exist. It also seems that more people are becoming atheists- I thought it was rather the opposite, but the European statistics are especially promising.

I would like to see the statistics about religious moderates who have turned fundamentalist, though- unfortunately, I think that number is rising all over the world. It seems to me that although (according to these stats) the number of atheists is on the rise, among theists, the number of moderates is decreasing and the number of fundamentalists/extremists is increasing.


----------



## boatrat

Hi all, I'm so happy that I found this thread. Expat-mama, I love the Youtube video. I concur with the correlation between level of education and atheism. My husband and I are both Ph.D.-level scientists and I get so frustrated with the attacks on science and scientific education by the religious right.

I am an athesist book junky. I love to read Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins is my hero. Also, I recently read the book Freethinkers: a History of American Secularism and I highly recommend it.

rachel616, I had a very similar experience in the time leading up to the election. I was constantly bombarded with racist pro-religion anti-muslim emails from family members. I finally had too much and fired back with a link to snopes in an effort to clear up the misinformation, but I doubt it had any real impact.

My husband and I are going to raise our son to be a freethinker. We live in the Research Triangle of North Carolina, so we are in an intellectual oasis in the middle of the bible belt. I grew up in rural southeast Georgia and I dealt first-hand with religious discrimination since my father was an agnostic and I did not attend church. Hopefully my son will not have the same type of experience.


----------



## Ryatt

Hi!









New to this thread... and happy to see some other like minded mamas. Hope every one is well!


----------



## christifav

Welcome, Ryatt and boatrat!


----------



## Tangled Hill

Ooh, can I join?

Just watched Religulous (the Bill Maher movie) today. Has anyone seen it? They've got it up for free at Atheist Nation right now. I have a hard time watching Bill Maher (he's just so rude to people, and I find myself turning away from the tv - or computer - in embarrassment... well, that, and he seems to think that all homeschoolers are religious extremists), but I still had a lot of fun watching.

I've also just discovered the huge Atheist community on Reddit. That's a good way to kill a few (or several) hours.


----------



## elizaMM

Thanks Tangly!!

DH & I watched it the other night, courtesy of you. Bill IS rather cynical. But I think he says a lot of things many of us are thinking already (albeit, rudely) and he does a good job of encouraging other skeptics to come out of the closet. Its another case of choosing powerful over ethical.

And two thumbs up to the whole Documentary Feature Film jag!


----------



## MrsRefney

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boatrat* 
Hi all, I'm so happy that I found this thread. Expat-mama, I love the Youtube video. I concur with the correlation between level of education and atheism. My husband and I are both Ph.D.-level scientists and I get so frustrated with the attacks on science and scientific education by the religious right.

I am an athesist book junky. I love to read Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins is my hero. Also, I recently read the book Freethinkers: a History of American Secularism and I highly recommend it.

My husband and I are going to raise our son to be a freethinker. We live in the Research Triangle of North Carolina, so we are in an intellectual oasis in the middle of the bible belt. I grew up in rural southeast Georgia and I dealt first-hand with religious discrimination since my father was an agnostic and I did not attend church. Hopefully my son will not have the same type of experience.


Can we be friends? We (me, my husband, baby girl and hopefully another babe by then) are looking to move to the Triangle by April-May of 2010. We live in South Louisiana now, and oooo, boy, are we in the minority.

I'm in the process of reading Freethinkers now. We have a bunch of Dawkins also, but some of the science is a bit much for me in the toddler-raising state.


----------



## jspring0308

Hi All,

I'm currently in Charleston, South Carolina and now understand "The Bible Belt"; I think South Carolina is close to the buckle! I grew up in the Pacific Northwest and religion was such a non-issue even to people who believed in god that I never really thought about how religion for some is such an important daily part of life. I had never been told to "have a blessed day" until I moved here and now I am probably offered that 2-5 times per week. I definitely feel like a true outsider in regards to religion here in the south especially since I am fairly anti-religion to boot and have no interest in letting my 6 year old explore Christianity and tend to be quite pragmatic about religion/spirituality/life/death etc.

Anyway nice to find this thread. I look forward to reading some of the suggestions in the previous threads. The last book I read of this topic was God is not Great and really enjoyed most of it.


----------



## Devaskyla

Just saying hi. I guess the closest label for me is agnostic. The only thing that I seem to really believe in is reincarnation. Every so often I think there's something more...the universe, God, whatever you want to call it. Most of the time I think it's just a way to not take responsibility for yourself & your life.

Family went to church when I was a kid, extremely liberal by the standards of most U.S. churches, though, I think....United Church of Canada. Despite the fact I was the only girl in my Brownie troop to get 2 levels of the Religion in Life badge (or maybe because of it?







) I was never a believer. As I got older, it annoyed me more & more. So much, that despite my love of singing, I would stop singing phrases I didn't believe & eventually whole songs. I remember being 9 or 10 & having my mom mad at me because I wasn't singing.

I think the final straw for me was one day in Sunday school. We were asked what 3 things we would save if our house were on fire. I picked my pets & the teacher basically told me I was an idiot, I was supposed to be picking things & animals didn't count. Looking back, I don't think she was trying to say things were more important than my pets (although who knows), but that's the way I took it as a kid and it completely shredded any chance of me ever being a Christian.

DS1 seems to be an atheist. Not entirely sure how that happened. He's learned not tell Grandma she's full of it when she talks about God, though. He even sat through her reading a book about the Christian Christmas story. Then we had a little chat about it after.









H is...confused.







Worse than I am, he doesn't appear to have anything he believes in but hasn't really ruled anything out, either.


----------



## ecoteat

Another new one here...

I've never called myself anything but an atheist. There was no religion in my upbringing, really, other than weddings in churches (not mine!) and cousins being baptized. But my immediate family never went to church or talked about religion much. When I was in high school I had pretty clear ideas about how I viewed the world, so I started reading about religion to see if there was anything out there that I fit into. I didn't really find anything. I was (and still am) drawn to certain aspects of Buddhism, but not enough for that to be what I call myself.

I consider myself an atheist for the simple fact that I don't believe any divine being exists. I am a science teacher and I find great comfort in the natural order of things. One challenge I'm running into this year is teaching about the universe and the geologic time scale to a few middle school students who are very religious. It's actually gone much more smoothly than I expected, and religion shouldn't even come up in class anyway, but sometimes there is still that tension.

I live in a very open minded community, so there are no issues at all with varying views of the world in my personal life. Many of my friends have turned away from the religion they were raised with.

I just realized I should have gone to bed long ago. So I'll probably be checking in with this tribe to see what you all talk about here.


----------



## mightymoo

Anyone watching Obama's speech? "We are a nation of christians and muslims, jews and hindus... and nonbelievers"

I seriously started crying. I'm so glad that he acknowledged that not everyone believes. I never expected that.


----------



## KLM99

I'm watching and did notice the "nonbelievers" - but jeeeez...anyone else offended by the extreme NON-separation of church and state??? That first sermon was unbelievable...


----------



## riverside knitter

Yep, I found Rev. Warren's invocation to be a bit much.


----------



## mightymoo

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KLM99* 
I'm watching and did notice the "nonbelievers" - but jeeeez...anyone else offended by the extreme NON-separation of church and state??? That first sermon was unbelievable...

Yes, I agree, I was thinking to myself why do we have to bring god into everything, sigh. But, those were from Reverends, so I'm not surprised. I'm so happy to see President Obama show that he understands that there are nonbelievers too though.

What would an atheist president swear on? I think I'd swear on a copy of the constitution. like that would ever happen anyway, sigh.


----------



## Contrariety

I just tuned out the god talk, and was stoked to hear that someone is thinking about us "non-believers."







: Heaven forbid the use of the a-words, but... I'll take what I can get!


----------



## hollyvangogh

Can I join? I just split from the LDS church after converting 8 years ago.


----------



## Contrariety

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hollyvangogh* 
Can I join? I just split from the LDS church after converting 8 years ago.

Sure! There have been a few ex-mo tribes bouncing about MDC, though it seems I can never keep track of them... maybe we need to start a new one?

Though the atheist/agnostic tribe is a comfy place to be, as well...


----------



## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Contrariety* 
Sure! There have been a few ex-mo tribes bouncing about MDC, though it seems I can never keep track of them... maybe we need to start a new one?

Though the atheist/agnostic tribe is a comfy place to be, as well...

Hmmm...that would be a nice tribe to be a part of....

ETA: I don't want religion in my life. But I want spirituality, kwim? What does everybody do to have that? For example, instead of praying before meals now we just take a second to feel gratitude for our food.


----------



## expat-mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mightymoo* 
Anyone watching Obama's speech? "We are a nation of christians and muslims, jews and hindus... and nonbelievers"

I seriously started crying. I'm so glad that he acknowledged that not everyone believes. I never expected that.

YES! Yay "NON-BELIEVERS"- DH and I cheered and were so surprised to hear that! Great great great.


----------



## expat-mama

Hello Atheists and Agnostics!

A while ago we were talking about books either to guide us in raising our children as free-thinkers and compassionate, moral and respectful atheists/agnostics or for the kids themselves. I found a few books for kids recently while browsing some humanist websites. Here they are and they look awesome, can't wait to get them. I think they are for older kids (pre-teen or teen), but I think reading them to younger kids could introduce some concepts and ideas that would be beneficial if you guide them along.

What About Gods?

Humanism, What's That? A Book for Curious Kids

Maybe Right, Maybe Wrong: A Guide for Young Thinkers

Maybe Yes, Maybe No: A Guide for Young Skeptics

If anyone has read these books let me know how you liked them. Reading the descriptions and reviews on Amazons has made me really excited to read them. They're on my wish list for now.


----------



## siobhang

Quote:


Originally Posted by *expat-mama* 
YES! Yay "NON-BELIEVERS"- DH and I cheered and were so surprised to hear that! Great great great.









yup!

as a friend of mine said during the speech, "well, he was raised by an atheist, and his dad had atheist tendencies towards the end of his life"


----------



## Tangled Hill

Quote:


Originally Posted by *expat-mama* 
YES! Yay "NON-BELIEVERS"- DH and I cheered and were so surprised to hear that! Great great great.









I was watching the live stream on MSNBC's site, and as soon as I heard those words, I clapped and squeaked and smiled a huge, goofy grin. I'm sure I was quite the picture. Luckily, no one was around.


----------



## jaidymama

I felt it was OK for Obama to have a ceremony that included the beliefs he has. HOWEVER, I did not agree for the clergymen to have referenced the entire nation as if we are all the same... there was a statement like we are all here establishing your kingdom on earth... Um, well I'm not.

Historically speaking (and I think it can be forgotten by Christians, they just think they were in on it from the beginning), the did not used to swear in the president with a bible (according to my husband). And the whole prayer was a recent addition as well.

I wish there were another label besides NON believer. As far as I'm concerned, there are things I believe in... it's just not what they believe. So it's like I'm being described by what they are not... Just think if he had prayed for the white non colored people. But I suppose I should just be happy that he acknowledges there are more people than the Christians in this country.

THanks for the book links. I don't suppose I would find those in my local library!


----------



## Tangled Hill

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jaidymama* 
I wish there were another label besides NON believer. As far as I'm concerned, there are things I believe in... it's just not what they believe. So it's like I'm being described by what they are not... Just think if he had prayed for the white non colored people. But I suppose I should just be happy that he acknowledges there are more people than the Christians in this country.

My brother and I discussed this at length. We're not happy with the term either, for the same reasons you mentioned, but we decided he (or the speech writers?) probably labored over what term to use, trying to offend as few people as possible (and trying to continue to appear just as xian as everyone wants him to be). I think it was almost certainly a compromise.

I didn't hear the prayers, as I just muted the computer when they were on.


----------



## jspring0308

As my own little protest against all the prayers and God Bless America broohaahaa I actually turned the t.v. off while the prayers were being said.









I don't like _non-believer_ either (even though it pretty much fits me to a T)b/c I think it sounds negative but I truly do appreciate that Obama and his writers bothered to include us! I was sitting there as he was going through the different religions saying to my nursling "and non-religious people" and then he included me and I whooped, totally startling baby!


----------



## christifav

Quote:


Originally Posted by *expat-mama* 
Hello Atheists and Agnostics!

A while ago we were talking about books either to guide us in raising our children as free-thinkers and compassionate, moral and respectful atheists/agnostics or for the kids themselves. I found a few books for kids recently while browsing some humanist websites. Here they are and they look awesome, can't wait to get them. I think they are for older kids (pre-teen or teen), but I think reading them to younger kids could introduce some concepts and ideas that would be beneficial if you guide them along.

What About Gods?

Humanism, What's That? A Book for Curious Kids

Maybe Right, Maybe Wrong: A Guide for Young Thinkers

Maybe Yes, Maybe No: A Guide for Young Skeptics

If anyone has read these books let me know how you liked them. Reading the descriptions and reviews on Amazons has made me really excited to read them. They're on my wish list for now.









Add to that list: Dale McGowan's new book, Raising Freethinkers: A Practical Guide for Parenting Beyond Belief, has finally been released!


----------



## Theoretica

Quote:


Originally Posted by *expat-mama* 
Hello Atheists and Agnostics!

A while ago we were talking about books either to guide us in raising our children as free-thinkers and compassionate, moral and respectful atheists/agnostics or for the kids themselves. I found a few books for kids recently while browsing some humanist websites. Here they are and they look awesome, can't wait to get them. I think they are for older kids (pre-teen or teen), but I think reading them to younger kids could introduce some concepts and ideas that would be beneficial if you guide them along.

What About Gods?

Humanism, What's That? A Book for Curious Kids

Maybe Right, Maybe Wrong: A Guide for Young Thinkers

Maybe Yes, Maybe No: A Guide for Young Skeptics

If anyone has read these books let me know how you liked them. Reading the descriptions and reviews on Amazons has made me really excited to read them. They're on my wish list for now.










THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!!

I'm heading to the bookstore tomorrow to get these...DD has been asking lots of questions lately and this helps tremendously!


----------



## Tangled Hill

Oh, wow - I just found ten issues of Free Inquiry magazine from when I was a kid! They range from the winter 1986 issue to the fall 1990 issue. How cool! They've been sitting out in my garage for years, I guess. Wish I'd known they were out there sooner. Oh, well. I'm certainly gonna have a fun weekend!








:


----------



## Karamom

subbing


----------



## Susana

I'm here.
after several years of trying my darndest to trade catholicism for wicca, I've just decided to go with my gut.

I'm an atheist who really digs and honors the planet. Well hell, the whole universe for that matter.

both of my parents died in 2008 and for the life of me, I want so badly to cling to a belief system that promises me that they are still somehow around me and that I will see them again someday. Try as I may, I really don't believe it.

I feel relief in acknowledging my atheism. Just because I don't believe in god, or gods, or goddesses doesn't mean I'm not connected with all life here on Earth, and I can celebrate that.

nice to meet everyone here.


----------



## Tangled Hill

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Susana* 
Just because I don't believe in god, or gods, or goddesses doesn't mean I'm not connected with all life here on Earth, and I can celebrate that.











Welcome to the tribe!! And







to you for all you've gone through this past year.


----------



## jaidymama

So what do you do or ask your child to do while everyone else is praying or saying grace before a meal? We have family who we eat with about once a month, and they say their prayers. I respect their choices, and their rituals. Yet obviously my son knows nothing about prayer. I'm not someone who is looking to be controversial. However, I don't think I'm going to ask my son to pretend to pray. We did ask him to sit quietly, however, it's usually that the food is in front of him while they pray so he eats while they pray...

What do you do, or what do you think is the best way to handle this with ease and tact?


----------



## Karamom

I've heard of atheist families who will sit for a minute and just think about how thankful they are for the food. Is he old enough to do this?


----------



## jaidymama

ha! we are at the super picky stage, so being thankful might be a practical challenge since getting him to eat seems to be a challenge at times. However, I like the idea of practicing it so that he will at least get there someday.


----------



## Tangled Hill

How old is your little one? Mine is nearly eleven, so I'm sure it's quite a bit different for us. Anyway, when we get together with extended family on Easter, Thanksgiving and Christmas, son sits quietly with his eyes down or closed while they say their prayer. I do the same thing. I don't remember teaching him this. When he was little, I think I just tried to keep him quiet while they prayed, but at some point, he started doing it on his own. Of course, I think he's known about Christianity and prayer since he was four, or so. I just really don't remember. Big lot of help I am, huh?









Recently (like within the past few years), he's prided himself on respecting other people's beliefs, so he listens quietly as his great grandmother tells him how wonderful Heaven is. He realizes it would break her heart to know we don't subscribe to her beliefs, so he pretends. He doesn't do this with everyone - just her. She's 95, and I think it's probably a good idea not to get her worried or stressed about our eternal souls, so I'm cool with it. I guess I sort of do the same thing by nodding and agreeing with her.

But with the praying, I think maybe just telling him that they're being thankful for the food they're about to eat and that everyone sits quietly for a minute might be enough to do the trick.


----------



## hollyvangogh

I enjoyed this, wanted to share.


----------



## Theoretica

Ok so the local bookstores don't have the books listed above. I knew I was in fundieville but this is a bit much. I did find them on Amazon and will order them. I just ordered Parenting Beyond Belief and the workbook to go with it so I'm at my Amazonian Limit for this pay period LOLOL

BUT...I went to our library and they don't have anything either??

A LIBRARY?? With nothing on atheism and parenting?? Not even Secular Parenting.

Now, put in RELIGIOUS parenting and there's 90 titles. Seriously.

I asked if I could donate some and they said all donated books go to the book sale, NOT to the shelves.










Infuriating.


----------



## Contrariety

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jaidymama* 
So what do you do or ask your child to do while everyone else is praying or saying grace before a meal? We have family who we eat with about once a month, and they say their prayers. I respect their choices, and their rituals. Yet obviously my son knows nothing about prayer. I'm not someone who is looking to be controversial. However, I don't think I'm going to ask my son to pretend to pray. We did ask him to sit quietly, however, it's usually that the food is in front of him while they pray so he eats while they pray...

What do you do, or what do you think is the best way to handle this with ease and tact?

DS is still too young to understand "Sit still. Please be respectful and quiet."

So for now, I mostly just try and keep him distracted enough by eating something that he doesn't whoop and holler during the prayer. As he gets older, I will teach him to do as I do. I sit still. I am respectful. I am quiet.

I do not bow my head. I do not fold my arms or clasp my hands. If possible, I steer clear of the kitchen or dining area before the prayer is said to avoid the awkwardness.


----------



## Contrariety

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 

A LIBRARY?? With nothing on atheism and parenting?? Not even Secular Parenting.

Now, put in RELIGIOUS parenting and there's 90 titles. Seriously.

I asked if I could donate some and they said all donated books go to the book sale, NOT to the shelves.










Infuriating.

My library has an overwhelming amount of LDS (I live in Utah) religious books as well as fiction books... and next to nothing for anyone else... not even Catholic books, even though there is a pretty decent latino population in my area.









I can get most books I want through the state's inter-library loan program, though.


----------



## MrsRefney

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
Ok so the local bookstores don't have the books listed above. I knew I was in fundieville but this is a bit much. I did find them on Amazon and will order them. I just ordered Parenting Beyond Belief and the workbook to go with it so I'm at my Amazonian Limit for this pay period LOLOL

BUT...I went to our library and they don't have anything either??

A LIBRARY?? With nothing on atheism and parenting?? Not even Secular Parenting.

Now, put in RELIGIOUS parenting and there's 90 titles. Seriously.

I asked if I could donate some and they said all donated books go to the book sale, NOT to the shelves.










Infuriating.

It's like that here, as well. I can't even find current events books written by "liberal" authors. All teh Rush and Ann you can devour, but that's it.


----------



## *CM*

Hi! I'm just joinging this thread and so excited to see that there is a group of agnostic moms out there to chat with!

I enjoy reading Dale McGowan's blog and can't wait to get out and get his new book.

Theoretica, is it possible to request that your library purchase the book you are looking for? The library I went to before we moved had a process through which patrons could request certain materials. I don't know if they needed a certain number of requests for th same item before they'd get it, but you could always call and ask your library if they have a system set up for requests.


----------



## ~PurityLake~

I'm glad I found this thread. I was subbed to an agnostic/atheist thread, but that was pulled. So glad I found another.

I've just started attending our local UU church. We've gone twice the past three weekends. We'll see if it sticks.

Theoretica, that book finding seems awfully frustrating. Even more so that they aren't open to adding _free_ books to their shelves.


----------



## elizaMM

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Susana* 
I'm here.
after several years of trying my darndest to trade catholicism for wicca, I've just decided to go with my gut.

I'm an atheist who really digs and honors the planet. Well hell, the whole universe for that matter.

both of my parents died in 2008 and for the life of me, I want so badly to cling to a belief system that promises me that they are still somehow around me and that I will see them again someday. Try as I may, I really don't believe it.

I feel relief in acknowledging my atheism. Just because I don't believe in god, or gods, or goddesses doesn't mean I'm not connected with all life here on Earth, and I can celebrate that.

nice to meet everyone here.

Susana-- I am so WITH you. I was never christian but the pagan world has always been so tempting, but I always come back to just not believing (one could argue one could be an atheist pagan, I think, but when one tries to find other pagans they usually are all into Athena or somebody and it just turns me off).

That is so brave of you to acknowledge your unmet hopes! And yes! yes! yes!

Peace Susana!


----------



## Theoretica

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsRefney* 
It's like that here, as well. I can't even find current events books written by "liberal" authors. All teh Rush and Ann you can devour, but that's it.

Same here....grrrrr for living in FUNDIEVILLE

Quote:


Originally Posted by **CM** 
Theoretica, is it possible to request that your library purchase the book you are looking for? The library I went to before we moved had a process through which patrons could request certain materials. I don't know if they needed a certain number of requests for th same item before they'd get it, but you could always call and ask your library if they have a system set up for requests.

I asked them that, they said I could put in a request for a specific title but then it is 'reviewed' by the 'board' so as to determine the 'best usage of available funds'. That was when I said ohh it's a MONEY thing, well I'll buy 'em from Amazon and donate 'em to ya...there's ZERO atheist books to be found here. She says Ummmm well, you see, donated books are ummm reviewed by the Librarian God (she said the lady's name, I'm blank LOL) and if there isn't a need for that particular book they are sold at the book sale.

grrrrrrrrrrr.........







:







:







:

Hmmm. I'm betting my chances of getting atheist books are zilch around here. Amazon here I come! LOLOL


----------



## MrsRefney

Yep, my personal library has been receiving regular monthly Amazon shipments...my husband just sighs....


----------



## jaidymama

So I'm curious about the library thing... It's hard for me to imagine a public library having only religious parenting books. So I have to ask if it mattered how you did the search. Was it a computer database search or were you looking at the shelf? It's not that I don't believe you, I am surprised and would like to better understand.

Thanks for your patience.


----------



## elizaMM

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jaidymama* 
So I'm curious about the library thing... It's hard for me to imagine a public library having only religious parenting books

Imagine a rural southern town. One where linchings are a not-so-distant-memory. One where The Catcher In The Rye was banned for a few decades (perhaps still). If you don't go to church, you must be a criminal.

I can certainly imagine no atheist books at their public library. Hopefully they have the ability to "interlibrary loan" them from somewhere near or far. Hopefully they believe in freedom of expression and speach. But I wouldn't count on it.


----------



## Susana

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tangled Hill* 









Welcome to the tribe!! And







to you for all you've gone through this past year.

thank you, Tangled Hill!!


----------



## Susana

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizaMM* 
Susana-- I am so WITH you. I was never christian but the pagan world has always been so tempting, but I always come back to just not believing (one could argue one could be an atheist pagan, I think, but when one tries to find other pagans they usually are all into Athena or somebody and it just turns me off).

That is so brave of you to acknowledge your unmet hopes! And yes! yes! yes!

Peace Susana!

Thank you, elizamm!








I like the term atheist pagan, but I know what you say is true...my pagan friends tell me it's not possible to be both atheist *and* pagan.
But what else would you call a nature lover who doesn't believe in a supernatural higher power?
I'll probably just stick with that.."nature lover who doesn't believe in a supernatural higher power", though it is kinda long!!


----------



## Theoretica

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jaidymama* 
So I'm curious about the library thing... It's hard for me to imagine a public library having only religious parenting books. So I have to ask if it mattered how you did the search. Was it a computer database search or were you looking at the shelf? It's not that I don't believe you, I am surprised and would like to better understand.

Thanks for your patience.

I did both, at the two area libraries. They aren't connected to one another because technically they are in two different towns, but the towns run into each other if that makes sense. I searched the shelves AND the computer database. I used every term imagineable. The terms "atheist", "humanism", "atheism", and "secular" all came up "yielding no results". I'm really familiar with Dewey so I do know where to look lol

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizaMM* 
Imagine a rural southern town. One where linchings are a not-so-distant-memory. One where The Catcher In The Rye was banned for a few decades (perhaps still). If you don't go to church, you must be a criminal. I can certainly imagine no atheist books at their public library. Hopefully they have the ability to "interlibrary loan" them from somewhere near or far. Hopefully they believe in freedom of expression and speach. But I wouldn't count on it.

I'm not in the south (although I am FROM the south LOL) but I'm in a city/town that is predominantly and overwhelmingly Christian and white or hispanic. We sometimes go to a UU church on the other side of town, a whopping 100 people are there on a VERY busy Sunday, and they have their own library of 30 books...all very old....about humanism and atheism, primarily regarding science. But that's it. I don't mind donating books to them, it's just preaching to the choir-if you'll excuse the blatant pun LOL! It is interesting because the FIRST thing people ask you when they meet you is "what church do you go to". It's one of the reasons we joined the uu, so we could 'have a church' and DD could have friends we don't seriously disagree with.

While they don't ban books per se, they are extraordinarily selective about what 'gets in'. But without seeming that way. If that makes any sense LOL

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Susana* 
Thank you, elizamm!








I like the term atheist pagan, but I know what you say is true...my pagan friends tell me it's not possible to be both atheist *and* pagan.
But what else would you call a nature lover who doesn't believe in a supernatural higher power?
I'll probably just stick with that.."nature lover who doesn't believe in a supernatural higher power", though it is kinda long!!

I feel the EXACT same way! I have always been fascinated with paganism, even as a 'christian', and I really enjoy the appreciation and reverence of nature. But there isn't a god/goddess making spells work anymore than there's a god answering prayers. So, while it's easier in some respects to be 'in the pagan world' than 'in the xtian world', and we really incorporate a LOT of pagan traditions into our family...we don't do 'rituals' or 'spell casting' or 'magick' or anything because it's just not any different than what any other mainstream religion does...asking some supernatural force to intervene in life for their personal benefit.

Because of DH's Korean heritage we incorporate a lot of Buddhism into our lives as well, and that I can do without reservation because Buddhism doesn't adhere to any theistic belief that requires worship/praise/whatever.

So we're weird. We're pagan-esque, we're buddhist, we're atheist. LOLOL


----------



## darien

Hello, all! I can't recall if I've ever posted on this thread-- I usually just lurk.

If you'll indulge me, I wanted to share an amusing anecdote. There aren't too many people in my life who would find godless kid-talk funny.









My ds12 has been "reading the Bible" for the past few weeks, at "The Brick Testament" website. It's Bible verses, illustrated with Legos-- hilarious, btw.

My ds4 is very into mythology right now. He'll ask "Please tell me more myths about Yaweh!" The other day, he saw a rainbow and yelled "Look, it's Yaweh's promise!" [God shows Noah a rainbow as a sign that he'll never flood the earth and kill everything again]

It's funny to me that my atheist kids are more interested in the Bible than any of the Christian kids we know!

Another anecdote-- this one my friend's son. One day when he was 5, he came home from school and said "Mommy, my _teacher_ has an imaginary friend named Jesus!"


----------



## jspring0308

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darien* 
Another anecdote-- this one my friend's son. One day when he was 5, he came home from school and said "Mommy, my _teacher_ has an imaginary friend named Jesus!"











Reminds me of the quote by Lily Tomlin and I have to paraphrase it, Why is it that if you talk to god you're praying but if god talks to you you're crazy?


----------



## ~PurityLake~

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darien* 

It's funny to me that my atheist kids are more interested in the Bible than any of the Christian kids we know!

That is so true. Education and curiosity foster knowledge. Forced beliefs tend to foster resentment or lack of interest.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darien* 
Another anecdote-- this one my friend's son. One day when he was 5, he came home from school and said "Mommy, my _teacher_ has an imaginary friend named Jesus!"


That's hilarious.


----------



## Tangled Hill

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
Education and curiosity foster knowledge. Forced beliefs tend to foster resentment or lack of interest.


----------



## purplepaperclip

Hi gang! Glad to find you all.









Here's a question for you. How do you deal with your religious family? Do they know you don't believe or do you pretend and say noncommittal "mmmms" and "ohhhhs" when the conversation turns to god? Do you feel like you would be causing them pain and anguish if they knew you were an athiest? Worried your soul and those of your children are going to suffer eternal damnation?

I am dealing with this with my mother and father. I just don't know the best way to go. In the past I've just gone along with them, but now I;m a mom I feel more strongly about not pretending to be something I am not. I want to be true to myself and be a good example for my daughter, but I also don't want to hurt and/or let down my parents...


----------



## Contrariety

I don't entertain my family's religious assumptions. BUT out of respect for their fragile little feelings, I also don't straight out talk about my lack of religion. If they ever asked me, or wanted to pretend for a second to have a genuine interest in what I do (or don't, as it were) believe in and why, I wouldn't hesitate to give them the low down.


----------



## Theoretica

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Contrariety* 
I don't entertain my family's religious assumptions. BUT out of respect for their fragile little feelings, I also don't straight out talk about my lack of religion. If they ever asked me, or wanted to pretend for a second to have a genuine interest in what I do (or don't, as it were) believe in and why, I wouldn't hesitate to give them the low down.

On this note...specifically the 'fragile little feelings' part....

Why is it that folks who adhere fervently to religion are so damn sensitive about it? I mean, if they are so sure, why do atheists bother them so much?


----------



## CallMeMommy

My mom knows, she just refuses to talk about it. I don't think my dad knows, but he's not particularly religious and I can't foresee him talking about god. I don't know if my fundie sister knows, if she does she doesn't talk about it. Not much help, but there ya go...

We were up to see MIL last weekend and she asked when the baby was getting baptised. Um, you'll have to ask your son about that one... She's just worried that the baby will go to hell if something happens to him







He's a frickin' BABY who's never done anything wrong. My mom's pulled that too, "I'm just afraid for your soul..." Gee, well then, sign me right up for that religion that punishes you with hell if you don't believe! Does this actually make sense to people?


----------



## christifav

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
On this note...specifically the 'fragile little feelings' part....

Why is it that folks who adhere fervently to religion are so damn sensitive about it? I mean, if they are so sure, why do atheists bother them so much?

Seriously! I don't get defensive when someone offers me a conflicting point of view. I either a.) know I'm right so screw 'em or b.) am not 100% sure I'm right so I listen.

I'm sure they are bothered by us b/c they have no evidence to prove their beliefs and therefore rely on other people believing to validate their own beliefs. Whew...that was a mouthful. But if a rational person tells them that, "hey, I don't buy your sky fairy business" then that suggests to them that there's a chance they may be wrong.

But...FWIW, I have christian friends who are NOT threatened by me and I am able to have intelligent conversation regarding faith with them...although it always ends in "we agree to disagree".


----------



## Tangled Hill

I'm lucky in that my parents are atheists, themselves (well, my mother might lean toward agnostic, from time to time).

Beyond my immediate family (all atheists), only my grandmothers ever talk to me about religion. One grandmother, I don't see often enough that it's ever _really_ come up. She'll mention something Xian here and there in a letter, but that's about it. So, I've never really had occasion to discuss it with her.

My other grandmother is 95 and would worry about my soul (and my son's soul) if she knew, so I go ahead and pretend, as does the little one. She doesn't need that stress. Being 95 is stress enough for her (she's not taking old age very well). I don't want to cause her any additional worry, whatsoever, if I can help it. I mostly do the "noncommittal 'mmmms' and 'ohhhhs'" thing whenever she brings it up (which is becoming more and more often as she gets older).

Aunts/uncles/cousins just never talk about it. I'm sure they all assume I'm Xian, since I've never had occasion to tell them one way or another.


----------



## WeR1_09

Hi, all.

What a great forum! I did a search on the Internet for agnostic moms groups in my area (thinking 'yea right, a non-religious moms group in CHARLESTON, SC? no way') and, while I didn't find a local non-religious moms group, at least I found this. Very cool!

My husband and I are both agnostic and feel VERY out-of-place here in SC. The friends we have made are all very nice people, but believe so differently than us (them: conservative, Christian, republican. us: liberal, agnostic - and, if we had to choose a 'party,' would be 'democrats', for sure). I get tired of the Christian, Republican -- especially anti-Obama pre-election emails -- sent by friends. After one such email recently received, I decided I REALLY would like to see if there are more like-minded moms out there I could connect with (in our area would be GREAT, to possibly meet up with, playdates, etc.). But, if it's just this forum, I'm completely content with that too. It's nice to know we're not alone!


----------



## jspring0308

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WeR1_09* 
Hi, all.

What a great forum! I did a search on the Internet for agnostic moms groups in my area (thinking 'yea right, a non-religious moms group in CHARLESTON, SC? no way') and, while I didn't find a local non-religious moms group, at least I found this. Very cool!

My husband and I are both agnostic and feel VERY out-of-place here in SC. The friends we have made are all very nice people, but believe so differently than us (them: conservative, Christian, republican. us: liberal, agnostic - and, if we had to choose a 'party,' would be 'democrats', for sure). I get tired of the Christian, Republican -- especially anti-Obama pre-election emails -- sent by friends. After one such email recently received, I decided I REALLY would like to see if there are more like-minded moms out there I could connect with (in our area would be GREAT, to possibly meet up with, playdates, etc.). But, if it's just this forum, I'm completely content with that too. It's nice to know we're not alone!
















I'm here!!! I'm in Mt. Pleasant and moved out here from Oregon 1.5 years ago; what a change. PM me and we can set up a meet & greet (i'm currently typing 1-handed w/babe asleep or i'd write you!


----------



## tiffani

no time to read through the entire thread right now, so subbing!









my dh and I consider ourselves anti-theists (though we're tolerant of other viewpoints, of course







) but our 7 year old son is going through a christian phase and I needed you guys for support and advice! be back later to roll around in your wisdom!!


----------



## Susana

hi hi fellow atheist and agnostic mdcers









listen to this if you will...

so, now that my parents are both dead I have been thinking about what is left of them now. and all I can truly believe is that their physical bodies are in boxes inside waterproof vaults and they are decomposing. I don't think their souls are out in the universe bopping around waiting for another chance to come back as someone else, and I don't think they are with my grandmas and grandpas and dogs who have passed away in some spirit world. I just think their spirits are gone and their bodies are decomposing.

I know this isn't a fluffy feel-good way to look at it to most people but I'm all right with it.

My question is, why do other people in my life want to debate me on this? I got a comment on my blog tonight regarding *energy can't be created or destroyed* and so therefore my parents' spirits are out there somewhere.
well, you know, I don't think so. I think their spirits were inventions of their brains which are now dead.

why do people need to try to convince me otherwise?
It's sorta frustrating. I think I won't even respond to the comment. I don't feel like acknowledging it.

sigh.


----------



## 2xy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Susana* 
My question is, why do other people in my life want to debate me on this? I got a comment on my blog tonight regarding *energy can't be created or destroyed* and so therefore my parents' spirits are out there somewhere.

Well....I'm a strong atheist, and I still believe that energy can't be created or destroyed. The thing is, I don't believe in spirits or souls. I think that the energy that drives me will just dissipate back into the universe when I die. The energy is still energy....it just moves along, and gets recycled into something else. Maybe bits of my energy will eventually reach the sun, and other bits will help bring life to a kitten, and yet others will make ocean currents. Science rocks.









As for other people wanting to debate you, it's because they can't admit that their beliefs are just that....BELIEFS. They have convinced themselves that their beliefs are factual, can't imagine that anyone would disagree, and become upset and offended when someone dares to challenge what they cling to. It's like trying to take a security blanket away from a 3yo.

My opinion, however, is that if you post your thoughts on public forums, you're inviting critics. So I think that if you don't want people to comment or argue with you, maybe you should keep those things private.


----------



## Susana

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
My opinion, however, is that if you post your thoughts on public forums, you're inviting critics. So I think that if you don't want people to comment or argue with you, maybe you should keep those things private.

you're right. If I'm going to tell everyone who reads my blog what I think then I am opening my junk up for other's opinions of it. I need to work on my "who cares what you think" attitude.


----------



## 2xy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Susana* 
I need to work on my "who cares what you think" attitude.


----------



## tiffani

after a trip to the library to find books on religions of the world for my son, I was happy to find many that treat them all equally, and provide just the facts about each religion, what people get from them, etc, but does anyone know of any literature for kids that is written for atheist families? I would love to find a book that details (though not too much detail, he's only 7) the origins of all the different major religions, how they have been steered politically, etc... does this book exist?








:


----------



## misswerewolf

yay - my kind of thread!


----------



## treehugz

Hey, I wanna join this tribe! My story: My dm is Church of God, my df is Methodist, so I went to both churches every week as a kid (my parents are still together, and they both go to both churches). At 16 I realized I didn't believe in god and used every excuse to avoid church. This didn't work, so I finally told my mom that I just didn't believe in god anymore... well, that didn't go as I hoped, and my mom said: either you go to church or you don't go anywhere else. No way I was stayin home at 16, so I sat thru church and became resentful toward the church and my mom.







: I've somewhat dealt with that.

Now, I'm an agnostic/humanist/somethin-er-other and married to a fundamentalist Christian who worries for my soul...







long story how that happened... might tell it sometime, if I can stop lurking and start posting!







My family and my ils are fundamental xians. My family doesn't talk religion to me, but my mil talks religion all the time... for my dh's sake I've not been upfront about my beliefs, but now that I'm a mom, that can't last much longer. Whew, I think that sums it up. Awful lonely here in the bible belt, so I'm glad to be here!


----------



## expat-mama

just bumping us back into the mix.


----------



## nukii_luna

Just wanted to say a quick "hi" - Joined a few weeks ago.


----------



## Eyelet

Hi, I'm new here. Just thought I'd poke in here quickly. My husband and I are both atheists and for the most part (excluding extented family, but that's a whole other issue), we raise our children god/religion free.
We live in s small town with a strong christian influence, so we often bump into issues with other parents and the schools here.

Quick question - My younger son has shown an interest in joining the boy scouts (because he has friends in it), but from what I understand there's a strong religious influence involved. This may be a long shot, but does anyone know if there's an atheist version or if we can opt out of the religious parts?

TIA and nice to meet you all!









-Jaki


----------



## Theoretica

DD and I just watched this yesterday...verrrrrry cool!


----------



## KatWrangler

I am here. I need to read all the posts though...

I am well I don't know what.







I was cradle Catholic, Husband was raised as a non practicing Southern Baptist. About 10 years ago I really started thinking about what exactly I believe and don't believe. My husband started it by saying he didn't believe in God anymore and that he thought the Bible was made up Fables. At the time I had a boss that was Atheist and some other people in my office. At first I thought "These people are crazy!" I listened to what they had to say and lightbulb went off. Over time things have happened in my life to make me doubt there is a God. So right now I consider myself Agnostic.


----------



## KatWrangler

Did you see this?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29585222/

Quote:

Fifteen percent of respondents said they had no religion, an increase from 14.2 percent in 2001 and 8.2 percent in 1990, according to the American Religious Identification Survey.


----------



## Theoretica

That's interesting









Anyone here see Religulous? We just watched it last night...AWESOME!


----------



## ~PurityLake~

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KatWrangler* 
Did you see this?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29585222/

I've never been surveyed.


----------



## KatWrangler

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
I've never been surveyed.

















me either!


----------



## tiffani

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jaki* 
Quick question - My younger son has shown an interest in joining the boy scouts (because he has friends in it), but from what I understand there's a strong religious influence involved. This may be a long shot, but does anyone know if there's an atheist version or if we can opt out of the religious parts?

I don't know how religious scouts actually is, in practice -- it probably differs by group, and you'd have to find out about the actual group you were thinking of joining.

there is this organization, spiral scouts, that is similar, but different -- it's a pagan organization, actually, but in practice could probably be adjusted to suit your needs... don't know if one exists in your area, but you could always start one!


----------



## MrsRefney

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
That's interesting









Anyone here see Religulous? We just watched it last night...AWESOME!

We saw it a couple weeks ago. Even though Bill Maher rubs me the wrong way most of the time (misogynistic, know-it-all, ya know) I thought it was a very well done documentary.

I have a friend who lives in Orlando. I offered him the price of admission to go to the Jesusland or whatever the name of that theme park is, and he's like No Way....I ain't even going there!!!!


----------



## super mamabug

Hi, I've been mostly lurking on MDC - using it as a resource, but spending most of my time on TBW. I've been posting more and thought I'd pop in here! Hi, I am an athiest leaning agnostic humanist and a mom of 2.5! =)

I loved religulous, saw it twice in theatres. A good laugh for sure.


----------



## ~PurityLake~

Quote:


Originally Posted by *super mamabug* 
I loved religulous, saw it twice in theatres. A good laugh for sure.

I always wanted to see that, but never did. I watched Politically Incorrect a few times years and years ago and enjoyed that show.


----------



## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
I always wanted to see that, but never did. I watched Politically Incorrect a few times years and years ago and enjoyed that show.

I just saw it yesterday. It wasn't the best documentary I've seen by any stretch of the imagination but it is worth the time to watch it. As an ex-Mormon I wished Maher had spent just a little longer talking about Mormonism.


----------



## AuntieLiz

So glad to find this tribe! Another Post-Mormon Humanist here. How many non-religous MDC'ers do we have in Utah? (It's not an easy place to be an atheist. LOL)
Glad to meet you mamas.









*subbing


----------



## KLM99

Although my parents were technically "Christian" we never did much for religious holidays other than the commercial things - Santa came on Christmas and we got presents under the tree, the Easter bunny comes and brings us a basket on Easter and we'd have big family dinners on both holidays. I always very much enjoyed the traditions - leaving carrots for the reindeer on Christmas eve, listening to Christmas music, having egg hunts on Easter, etc and of course the big dinners with family and friends.

I would like to establish traditions for our family along the same lines, but am having difficulty with myself and my husband (both of us are atheists) reconciling "celebrating" religious holidays in these totally not religious ways. What does everyone else do? How do you reconcile this apparent conflict with yourself and your children? What traditions have you come up with on your own to "celebrate" these commercial, societal days off that we have that coincide with religious holidays?

I'd like to post this elsewhere on the site, but I'm not sure where is appropriate! Hope to get some response here







Thanks!


----------



## Contrariety

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AuntieLiz* 
So glad to find this tribe! Another Post-Mormon Humanist here. How many non-religous MDC'ers do we have in Utah? (It's not an easy place to be an atheist. LOL)
Glad to meet you mamas.









*subbing

Ooo! Ooo! Me! Me! ... another atheist island floating in a sea of Utah County mormons. There's quite a few of us hanging around, I think. (Hey! You're in my DDC!







)

KLM99- I love holiday traditions. In our house we keep it strictly secular. As my kids get older, I think I'll take a little more time and research each holiday a bit more so I can teach my kids how the traditions got started, even if they spring from a religious place. It's really funny how I completely forgot that Easter is about Jesus.







To us, it's just about spring and re-birth and new life, KWIM? I was honestly baffled for a minute this weekend when my 4yr old niece kept talking about Jesus every other second. (though for WIW, I think she thinks about as much of JEsus as she does every other fictionalized holiday fixture, i.e. the easter bunny).

DH gets fussy when I suggest maybe toning down our own celebration of religious holidays, but I think I'm going to try and suggest that we have our own spring celebration on the first day of spring next year. We can still go to our parent's easter egg hunts, but for our own celebration, I'd like to keep it more in line with what it actually is to me: a celebration of spring.


----------



## super mamabug

Since none of the traditions you mentioned have anything to do with religion I see no reason to throw out tradition. We celebrate the solstice and equinox and take the opportunity to talk about the turning of the seasons, astronomy and other amazing scientific realities. The Easter Bunny/eggs represent fertility and spring, not Jesus resurrection.
These are not Christian images, they stole them from other traditions. There is not reason we can't do the same.


----------



## doublyblessed

*also subbing









i have recently realized that i do not believe in deities or a higher power. therefore i suppose that makes me an atheist, not even an agnostic anymore...







: yay, i know 'what label' i am!!! hee hee!

so...not sure what to say. i suppose i'll say i'm more metaphysical than anything...i believe in energy, essence...evolution. all those good 'e' words...evolving...

i have yet to see religulous. maybe i'll rent that today. i'd sure love to see it! religious people to me are highly fearful and wanting 'someone' to lean on...to me, as far as i see it, it is something to make very insecure people feel important and like they belong to a 'tribe'. it makes them feel self righteous and above others...and they therefore brainwash themselves to think that way is THE way...yeah. that is my psychological analysis. but you already knew that or you wouldn't be atheist. ha!









i fear death sometimes though, i must admit...it just seems so...final. esp when i may leave my children behind...that freaks me out. but that freaks most parents out, i'm sure...esp when they don't have a loving supportive significant other...and my mom is getting older so i don't know if she'd be around to care for my dc... i never should have signed up for establishing paternity w/ one of my ex's because he and his family are crazy nuts and my ex has become an extreme fundie christian...totally 'on fire' for jesus...thankfully he's in a state far from mine...i left at 35 wx prego.














: my dd's 'father' is a thing of the past...i never pursued establishing paternity, thank 'god'. (pun intended...)

and what is up w/ fundie christians thinking global warming doesn't exist??? and that the "age determination" is inaccurate of say, fossils and mummies and statues...?

its nice to be amongst those who feel similar about religion. so do most of you still think of yourselves as spiritual? how so?


----------



## KLM99

Quote:


Originally Posted by *super mamabug* 
Since none of the traditions you mentioned have anything to do with religion I see no reason to throw out tradition. We celebrate the solstice and equinox and take the opportunity to talk about the turning of the seasons, astronomy and other amazing scientific realities. The Easter Bunny/eggs represent fertility and spring, not Jesus resurrection.
These are not Christian images, they stole them from other traditions. There is not reason we can't do the same.

Love love love the two comments about Easter being a celebration of spring and seasons and fertility. Yesterday actually I asked DH - "wait, what do eggs and the easter bunny have to do with Jesus?" and neither one of us could come up with an answer. That's because they don't









To super mamabug - would you consider yourself a part of any "religion" or group that generally celebrates the solstice and equinox or is that just your familiy choosing what you'd like to celebrate?


----------



## ~PurityLake~

Quote:


Originally Posted by *super mamabug* 
Since none of the traditions you mentioned have anything to do with religion I see no reason to throw out tradition. We celebrate the solstice and equinox and take the opportunity to talk about the turning of the seasons, astronomy and other amazing scientific realities. The Easter Bunny/eggs represent fertility and spring, not Jesus resurrection.
These are not Christian images, they stole them from other traditions. There is not reason we can't do the same.

Exactly. Thieves. They didn't want anyone to remember there are other religions out there in the world.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KLM99* 
Love love love the two comments about Easter being a celebration of spring and seasons and fertility. Yesterday actually I asked DH - "wait, what do eggs and the easter bunny have to do with Jesus?" and neither one of us could come up with an answer. That's because they don't









Yup.


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## hollyvangogh

Someone on a local mommy board was talking about Easter eggs being about Jesus being resurrected so I said:

Quote:

Actually Easter eggs are from the Ostara myth (Ostara/Eostre/Eastre). The goddess Ostara turned a bird into a rabbit. The rabbit could fly but was still sad that it wasn't a bird. So Ostara let it lay eggs once a year.

Weird. I know.
I imagine I might ruffle some feathers by pointing out that truth (that Christian Easter appropriated a whole bunch of stuff from pagan beliefs). But, so be it. It is what it is.


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## doublyblessed

ok...WHAT is up w/ this belief............................................ .......i saw my therapist today (she is at my countie's mental health dept. so i didn't get to choose my therapist...sigh!) & we were for some reason talking about god/higher power as we were talking about the ego & emotions (DBT stuff) and i told her no, i'm not religious. that i don't believe in deities actually existing... she said something i thought was absolutely obscene...something like, if one does not believe in god, there has to be a god to not believe in one............i was like wtf?!?!?!?!?!







i said i don't know about THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!

this same woman said its ok to give a swat to children once in a while.....to that i was like HUH?! (i do NOT believe this to be 'ok' at all...........ever!) & we also disagree on how to raise/discipline children....................she thinks consequences and rewards are not punitive. whatever. i take her advice/opinions w/ a grain of salt............a very very small grain of salt...and leave them at the door when i leave.


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## tiffani

hollyvangogh, that's great! what reply did you get?

doublyblessed, is this required therapy? are you getting anything positive out of it? A very good friend of mine was told to spank her dd by some (likely gov't funded) counselor years ago -- I was shocked and dismayed that anyone would actually advocate that for a stressed out single mama -- lots of people (myself included) have made the awful mistake of spanking in frustration, but it's certainly not, and never should be, considered a tool in the parenting toolbox!

ya know, imho...

and more on topic, I don't have any issue with celebrating whatever holiday in whatever way I like -- we sometimes examine where certain traditions began, but mostly we just enjoy the family time, the traditions and, of course, the chocolate!


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## Storm Bride

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KLM99* 
Although my parents were technically "Christian" we never did much for religious holidays other than the commercial things - Santa came on Christmas and we got presents under the tree, the Easter bunny comes and brings us a basket on Easter and we'd have big family dinners on both holidays. I always very much enjoyed the traditions - leaving carrots for the reindeer on Christmas eve, listening to Christmas music, having egg hunts on Easter, etc and of course the big dinners with family and friends.

I would like to establish traditions for our family along the same lines, but am having difficulty with myself and my husband (both of us are atheists) reconciling "celebrating" religious holidays in these totally not religious ways. What does everyone else do? How do you reconcile this apparent conflict with yourself and your children? What traditions have you come up with on your own to "celebrate" these commercial, societal days off that we have that coincide with religious holidays?

I'd like to post this elsewhere on the site, but I'm not sure where is appropriate! Hope to get some response here







Thanks!

Jumping in from nowhere, because the thread title caught my eye. I've only read a few posts near the end.

I'm agnostic, and was raised agnostic. My mom was raised Christian, and lost her faith at a very early age. My dad...I'm honestly not even sure, but religion wasn't part of our lives at all (beyond learning a few hymns, because my mom liked to play piano, and had learned them as a child).

We always celebrated Christmas and Easter. To me, they were/are secular, cultural holidays, not Christian ones. Santa (in his modern incarnation), reindeer, Christmas trees, stockings, candy canes, easter eggs, easter bunnies, etc. have little or nothing to do with Christianity. To me, they have nothing to do with it at all. They're family traditions that I grew up with and am passing on to my kids. Yes - for some people, they also function within a religious framework, but that doesn't mean I have to apply that to my own celebrations, yk?

There's never been a conflict for me. Christmas is a time for family and gifts and good food and music. Easter is a time for dying eggs, and eating chocolate and talking about chicks and bunnies (I took dd and ds2 to the farm today to see if the baby chicks had hatched yet, and to look at the baby rabbits). The story of Christ only rarely comes up and it's more of a cultural context thing than anything else.

Good luck finding what works for you!


----------



## honeyhaze

Christopher Hitchens takes on five theologians:

Long video, but worthwhile!

http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php...26166c55fdb819


----------



## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani* 
hollyvangogh, that's great! what reply did you get?


Not much so far. That's good with me.


----------



## AuntieLiz

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Contrariety* 
Ooo! Ooo! Me! Me! ... another atheist island floating in a sea of Utah County mormons. There's quite a few of us hanging around, I think. *(Hey! You're in my DDC!







)*

Whoa! Indeed I am! What are the odds? Nice to see you here, Contrariety!!









Great visit w/my midwife today. On the client info/background form, she has a question that asks about any special religious, ethnic or cultural birth customs that we might want her to know about. I had written, "None. (We are non-religious humanists)" on the form and it turns out... she's a humanist, too! I know that a midwife or hcp shouldn't care one way or another what her clients' religious preferences are, but around here atheists are treated like criminals or lepers or something, and I admit there was a teensy little part of me that was afraid she might have a problem with our "lifestyle." (ugh) Come to find out we are both ex-mo's! (Again... what are the odds?) I'm increasingly glad I chose this MW over the others in the pool.









(in fact.. i need to go check that old thread in the DDC; you and I might have the same midwife! wouldn't that be a riot! LOL)

ETA: i was close!


----------



## *CM*

We also struggle with holidays. I wasn't raised in a religious way at all, but both my parents had been raised Christian so they continued to celebrate Christian holidays in a secular way. We had the tree and stockings and Santa at Christmas and my parents created an Easter egg hunt in our house at easter. We had big family gatherings during those holidays too which I enjoyed immensely and want to have now. My extended family celebrated in religious ways, but my parents shielded my brother and I from that aspect of the gatherings as much as they could.

My DH grew up in a Reform Jewish household. They celebrated Passover, Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah and Chanukah. My DH, like me, is agnostic and really could care less about holidays except that we have children who want to fit in with their peers and he wants to give them that.

I went through many years of searching to find where I belong and along the way I converted to Judaism so my DH and I do have that religion in common to some extent, just our experiences with it have been different.

Before we had kids we just celebrated whatever holiday was being celebrated depending on who's family we were with and ignored the religious stuff. It's different now. We have a 6 year old and 4 year old and another baby on the way and we don't want them exposed to religion a whole lot yet. I've also changed a bunch. I'm pretty atheist now and really don't want to celebrate holidays that are seen by our society as a religious holiday. My DH doesn't want his heritage forgotten as our kids celebrate Christian holidays, even in a secular way, so for a few years we were celebrating both Christian and Jewish holidays and trying to play down the religious aspect of it. Not easy to do. It doesn't help that now my ILs are terrified that our kids won't get any exposure to Jewish traditions (we recently moved further away from them) and are sending all sorts of propaganda our way, even though my FIL seems to be agnostic himself. It's a quandry for us.

This past December, we tried to shift away from Christmas/Chanukah and do just a Winter Solstice celebration. It was the first year we had a tree in our house and I tried to tie it to the solstice celebration rather than Christmas, but by now, the kids have Christmas ingrained in their heads. They actually felt shorted because they didn't get to celebrate both holidays. But they did because my ILs didn't play along and sent chanukah stuff and the kids begged and begged to light the menorah and we gave in but didn't recite the prayers. My family played along and joined us for a solstice celebration, but it was just our usual Christmas party with a different name so to me it was no different and then they brought over Christmas gifts on Christmas day so I guess they didn't really play along. There were still WAY too many gifts (this is another issue I have with these holidays aside from the religious issue) and the kids just got annoyed with our attempts to talk about the solstice. I need to figure out a way to just do one celebration and know that it will be a difficult transition for the kids the first few years. It would be easier if my DH and I weren't from different religious/cultural backgrounds. I totally understand his desire to teach the kids about his heritage, unfortunately, religion is very closely tied to his heritage so it makes it hard.

We haven't done anything to celebrate Easter. The kids know about it from their friends, but we don't celebrate it in any way. They went to a baseball game on Easter. We also didn't celebrate Passover this year, but mostly because we live too far away from my DH's family to go every year. Even when we do go, it's not to celebrate the holiday, but to see family. Hopefully, as the kids get older and we talk more about what the holiday is for and why we don't celebrate it, then they will understand and appreciate the time with family.

I don't think that really gives you any ideas for reconciling your agnostic views with religious holidays, but you aren't alone in your internal conflict about the issue. I think about it alot. More than I should probably!


----------



## super mamabug

Sorry I didn't see your question! No we are a completely secular family. I, however see no reason to throw out our cultural traditions when it comes to raising my kids. Egg hunts, family meals, gifts in the winter are all wonderful traditions that are waaaaay older than the religious affiliations they currently hold. Cultures around the world celebrate these times in one way or another. I believe that the awesome way of the natural world is way more exciting and awe-inspiring than religion. I hope to pass that passion on to my kids! So we take the opportunity to teach about astronomy and seasons etc while still enjoying the traditions of our society and culture.

For more info I really recommend reading the essay "Losing the holy, keeping the day" from Parenting Beyond Belief.

http://books.google.com/books?id=cgr...esult&resnum=4


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## Niamh

I'm a post-Mormon who is not sure where she sits spiritually yet, but is quite sure where she *doesn't* sit. Organized religions make my skin crawl now, so any of those are out.

I'm not sure I'm atheist or agnostic. I've classified myself as an apatheist - don't care if there's a god or not - since I left Mormonism. I'm spiritual, for sure, but drawn to Eastern spirituality and Pagan (earth acknowledging) rituals, not any type of 'religion'.

I am in the unique position of being comfortable not having any religious beliefs, but feeling it necessary to counter the religious holidays with something as fun, exciting, or meaningful *outside* of religion since my husband, my extended family, and my in-laws are all still active, practicing, sometimes fanatical Mormons. I have at least one child who is very spiritual and could easily turn to what I believe is a harmful religion if she sees it as the only outlet for her spirituality.

So that's where I am. Glad to find this group!


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## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Niamh* 
I'm a post-Mormon

Hi!









You're not the only one!


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## readermaid

Hi everyone!

I'm a longtime lurker at MDC, but only recently jumping in to comment. I just found this tribe, and, while I don't really self-identify as an atheist/agnostic (my beliefs are in flux), I am definitely not religious and I definitely want to raise my daughter secularly. I am not sure yet how we will celebrate (or not) holidays, whether we will attend a UU church, or if we need to tell my mom she can't take my DD to church with her when she visits.

Anyway, I'm glad to find this thread. I'm subbing.


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## Contrariety

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AuntieLiz* 
(in fact.. i need to go check that old thread in the DDC; you and I might have the same midwife! wouldn't that be a riot! LOL)

ETA: i was close!









Not quite the same midwife, but close indeed. I assume mine isn't of LDS persuasion, though... not that I'd really care too much about having an LDS midwife, so long as she wasn't insisting on priesthood blessings or something like that.

We really used to have a good ex-mo tribe, but it got lost when MDC restructured a while back. Someone should start a new one, eh? Being ex-mo is different than just having been christian and then no longer christian, you know? It's a culture that is pounded into your bones, into every aspect of your life, especially when you are born into it. FWIW, I never believed the church was true, even as a kid, so I really tried to up the cultural stuff so that I could pass. My LDS friends are really amused at how much of the culture I retain even though I haven't even self identified as LDS for over 10 years.


----------



## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Contrariety* 
Someone should start a new one, eh?

Are you volunteering?


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## Contrariety

No way. I know I'd put it in the wrong place and get in trouble for hurting someone's feelings.

FYT? Religious studies? Spirituality?

ETA: Do I eye spy the big fat "Y" in your (I'm assuming) engagement photo? How things change, eh?


----------



## Theoretica

It would go in Spirituality, unless you're looking for a discussion/debate, then it'd go in Religious Studies. HTH









So....DD and I were grocery shopping yesterday and were proselytized to AGAIN. I swear we are in the most conservative part of the country...and it's not the south!! I must have Atheist tattooed onto my forehead or something...good grief! It was this little old lady inviting me to her church up the road from my house. I know the church, they are VERY conservative/fundamentalist/evangelical Baptist. They come door knocking every spring/summer...ugh.

Anyways, I took her tract and said thank you and threw it away in trash can in the next aisle. One of these days I'll have the guts to say "We're atheist, no thank you". But it'd start WWIII, so I have some hesitation about it. YKWIM?


----------



## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Contrariety* 
ETA: Do I eye spy the big fat "Y" in your (I'm assuming) engagement photo? How things change, eh?

Maybe...







:

It's one of my best pictures and I figure most people won't notice nor know what it is.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
One of these days I'll have the guts to say "We're atheist, no thank you". But it'd start WWIII, so I have some hesitation about it. YKWIM?

I totally understand. Sometimes it's just not worth the conflict, especially when the chances of changing minds is slim to none.


----------



## Theoretica

Exactly, it's not like granny-blue-hair is going to say ohhhh ok well I see your point. And I'm certainly not going to fall into epileptic spasms of repentance....so what's the point?

I just hope someday it's not such a freaky thing that you have to even THINK about being careful who you mention it to. It's cool to be gay, it's cool to be multiracial. But atheist?? OMG....THEY are psychos!


----------



## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
It's cool to be gay, it's cool to be multiracial. But atheist?? OMG....THEY are psychos!
















I'd say it all depends on where you are. It's definitely not cool to be gay or multiracial to some people in certain places. And that's sad.









But yeah...it is weird how people can't seem to understand how someone could be atheist. That's why I like this quote:

Quote:

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
- Stephen Roberts


----------



## Theoretica

Omg i love that quote!!! Thank you so much!!!!


----------



## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
That's interesting









Anyone here see Religulous? We just watched it last night...AWESOME!


Yes! LOVED it. He raised some amazing points. My hubby and I kept having to pause the movie to discuss some of the things he brought up.

Can I join? I'm agnostic, leaning towards atheism. I just haven't found the time to make up my mind







My hubby is definitely agnostic leaning the other way, but so far, we've come out unscathed. Our hope is to raise our DS to be a tolerant, embracing member of society. The only issue that we've run into is Christmas, and I seem to be fighting a losing battle on that one. I'll keep working on it though 

I'm glad this group is here!


----------



## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hollyvangogh* 
Hi!









You're not the only one!









I just saw this! So am I! I credit the hardtime I spent in that religion to why I'm so liberal in my religious/non religious beliefs now.


----------



## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 
Can I join? I'm agnostic, leaning towards atheism. I just haven't found the time to make up my mind









You can be both. An agnostic atheist is just somebody who doesn't belief in god but doesn't know for sure that god doesn't exist (so, pretty much everybody is agnostic to some degree).

Quote:

The only issue that we've run into is Christmas, and I seem to be fighting a losing battle on that one. I'll keep working on it though 
Are you fighting for or against celebrating Christmas?


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## voicegrrl

Ugh-ran into an uncomfortable situation at school with my daughter's classmates teh other day. I was sitting outside one of her sister's classes, when her class was walking back to their room. I've done a lot of volunteer work with her class so they all know who I am and two girls at the end of the line walked past me and ask me if my daughter was a christian. This blew my mind, these girls are 7, maybe 8 years old. She had a lot of problems at her school last year with some girls bullying her about not being christian, but we're at a different school this year and she has not dealt with this to my knowledge. So after picking my jaw off the floor after these girls asked me this, I said to them "what did you say?" I was sure I'd misunderstood them and they said that they'd asked her and she said she wasn't. I told them that was their answer then and they went into their class. She's not close to either one of these girls and luckily this year she's in a montessori school so a lot of the families are open minded like us. I'm glad that it didn't bother her and she felt strong enough to stand up to these girls unlike last year where it just tormented her to deal with these kinds of situations. It still made me sad that she even had to deal with it. We are deep in the south and its just such a big freakin' deal here. I wish I'd had some witty reply to those girls the second they asked me that. I was so shocked though. Things like this always remind me that there are people who spend the majority of their lives in a church and just don't get that everyone else doesn't do that.


----------



## Theoretica

Yowzer. I am really glad we homeschool DD, how infuriating. Bullied by Christians...the irony.....


----------



## spruce

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
Yowzer. I am really glad we homeschool DD, how infuriating. Bullied by Christians...the irony.....









We HS and this happens to us ALL the time.

In fact, I was on my way into the gym a few days ago with 5 of my kids, and got stopped by a man who demanded to know if we were Pentecostal. I knew where he was going with this, and felt sorry for him as he was about 85 years old (I know it isn't right to treat people gingerly just because they're old...but still)...

I told him, no, I'm not, and he asked if we must homeschool, since we're on our way into the gym in the early morning, and I said yes, we do. He said something else that indicated we must be Christian...

Sigh. It wasn't worth fighting about. I honestly don't know what to do about these kinds of folks. I got stopped last week in Safeway because one of the guys in the bakery dept thought we "looked like their kind of people." (Turns out he's husband to a preaching homeschooling mother). Yipes.

I just keep smiling.









FWIW, though,, and not to start any arguments...my best friend is LDS and her daughter often spends the night with us. We play a lot of games, and one of them is "The Da Vinci Game." It had a question the other day about how many people lived on Earth during the time of Christ, and of course the LDS version of history is different...I was thrown, we put the question out and went with a different one.

I'd like some sane references to LDS lore, but I also don't want to preach atheism at her daughter, any more than I want her to preach at my kids. It's a really hard row to hoe, being non-religious.

love,
penelope


----------



## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hollyvangogh* 
You can be both. An agnostic atheist is just somebody who doesn't belief in god but doesn't know for sure that god doesn't exist (so, pretty much everybody is agnostic to some degree).

Are you fighting for or against celebrating Christmas?


I'd like to steer away from it. Not just for the Christian aspect of it, but because of how commercial it has become, even among our families. DH argues that since both our respective families celebrate, we'd have a long battle ahead, and many lines to draw. Of course, some hurt feelings, no doubt.


----------



## teale

Quote:

I'd like some sane references to LDS lore, but I also don't want to preach atheism at her daughter, any more than I want her to preach at my kids. It's a really hard row to hoe, being non-religious.
Forgive the double post.

What sort of information are you looking for? It seems there are a few of us who are "post" mormons and mignt be able to help you out there.

Though, a lot of their "lore" is not sane, and it's hard to digest, even with an open mind.


----------



## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 

Though, a lot of their "lore" is not sane, and it's hard to digest, even with an open mind.









:

But...we might need to be careful what we say on MDC especially since this thread isn't in the religious studies forum. Can't speak for the other post-Mormon mamas but I'm happy to reply to PM and e-mail. I also have a blog on the topic.


----------



## Contrariety

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hollyvangogh* 







:

But...we might need to be careful what we say on MDC especially since this thread isn't in the religious studies forum. Can't speak for the other post-Mormon mamas but I'm happy to reply to PM and e-mail. I also have a blog on the topic.

Yup. That's why I'm hesitant to start a new ex-mo tribe. It's hard to talk about at all without ruffling feathers... which is a bummer. Oh well.


----------



## spruce

I don't know where stepping over the line will be here...so I will just happily read the blogs and other info put out there by post-LDS people. My best friend (whose husband became a bishop this last year) is honestly a truly intelligent person, and I don't understand why she really believes all these stories.

If not the "why" then I hope to find out the "what" of what they truly believe. Knowledge is power, right?










love, p


----------



## AuntieLiz

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spruce* 
If not the "why" then I hope to find out the "what" of what they truly believe. Knowledge is power, right?

There are plenty of very good resources online that can answer your questions. If you're curious, PM me.









As to your "Da Vinci Game" situation with the neighbor girl... I was LDS for 30 years and I don't think I would _ever_ have been able to answer that question. I still can't guess how many people were on the planet 2000 years ago. Can I use a lifeline?







LOL


----------



## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Contrariety* 
Yup. That's why I'm hesitant to start a new ex-mo tribe. It's hard to talk about at all without ruffling feathers... which is a bummer. Oh well.









It's too bad. Much like other religions need to gather together for support, I think it would be nice to have support from those who have BTDT in terms of leaving the mormon church.

There are a lot of amazing resources on the net if you are looking for "what" they actually believe. It can be hard to filter through because there are a lot of bitter ex-mo's out there that have sort of twisted the beliefs. For what reason, I'm not sure, but it can be hard to find the "real" information.


----------



## beansmama

Can I join?

Maybe i have before, haha, but have the worst memory *ever* and forgot.

I'm an atheist - new to it as of around July 08. I was raised super christian and raised DD5 that way as well, so you know, she still believes. I refuse to pop her bubble though - esp. since I got divorced last year as well...that's a lot for a kid. We've stopped taking her to church and egging it on though...and when she asks about god, I'm honest with my beliefs (in an gentle, age appropriate way). Xdh supports me as he leans towards the agnostic side. My parents are another story







.

Anyway, I just got married on the 18th to my wonderful DH (who just so happens to be an ex-mormon, now atheist, which apparently is popular? lol)

So yeah! hello


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## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beansmama* 
Can I join?

Maybe i have before, haha, but have the worst memory *ever* and forgot.

I'm an atheist - new to it as of around July 08. I was raised super christian and raised DD5 that way as well, so you know, she still believes. I refuse to pop her bubble though - esp. since I got divorced last year as well...that's a lot for a kid. We've stopped taking her to church and egging it on though...and when she asks about god, I'm honest with my beliefs (in an gentle, age appropriate way). Xdh supports me as he leans towards the agnostic side. My parents are another story







.

Anyway, I just got married on the 18th to my wonderful DH (who just so happens to be an ex-mormon, now atheist, which apparently is popular? lol)

So yeah! hello










Welcome!









How are you enjoying married life?







:


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## 1hautemama

Bump


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## Theoretica

If you start a post-LDS thread in Spirituality it will be ok I'm sure. I can start one if you'd like? I'm not post-LDS, I'm post-fundamentalist though. Similar concept. Different details. Same jello at the potlucks









Does anyone else here go to church on Sundays? I enjoy going, we head to our local UU church that is very atheist friendly so it's really nice to find 20+ people that think like you in a world of religious folk. Plus I love having a place for my kids to be comfortable in their own skin.


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## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
If you start a post-LDS thread in Spirituality it will be ok I'm sure. I can start one if you'd like? I'm not post-LDS, I'm post-fundamentalist though. Similar concept. Different details. Same jello at the potlucks









Does anyone else here go to church on Sundays? I enjoy going, we head to our local UU church that is very atheist friendly so it's really nice to find 20+ people that think like you in a world of religious folk. Plus I love having a place for my kids to be comfortable in their own skin.

We've contemplated going to the UU, even the Buddhist church here, but I think we're going to stay away from organized religion as a whole. Sundays are generally our "family" day, and since we have so much going on during the week, it's nice to have one day where we hang out at home.

UU was an interesting concept though!


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## beansmama

Married life is great, thanks









So I want to know more about UU church? There is one in Eugene, and apparently Eugene is pretty non-religious...i'm wondering how many other atheist/agnostic families would be there?

I'm not sure if I could deal with being preached to...I REALLY don't want to waste my time listening to mythology...how do the services usually go?

I think it would be nice to meet like minded people though...and good socialization for my kiddo









What about tithes? Do they have tithes? I'm just wondering how "christian" UU actually is?

TIA


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## Theoretica

Most UUs really try to embrace the RITUAL of community religious/cultural practices without utilizing the creedal dogma. Today during 'sermon time', for lack of a better term, he took questions that were put in the collection basket (he had asked for them ahead of time). One was 'what is the UU belief on heaven and hell' and he said well, we sure don't study THAT in seminary, we study how to help YOU find YOUR belief, whether or not it includes heaven or hell or just nothing. He pointed out that what we KNOW for a fact is that if you are a good person in life, you will be remembered that way after death. If you are a jerk...well....there ya go. So in that sense he pointed out that's an eternal memory that will get passed to others, do you want to be remembered well, or do you want everyone to be glad you kicked the bucket? Food for thought LOL

Then he shared HIS belief in reincarnation and asked one of our members to share their belief in reality being an illusion (Buddhist) and asked an atheist member to share their belief (this is it, after this is nothing for everyone and that's ok). He did not say 'we don't know the right answer' but he DID say we all possess our own right answers. He did briefly get onto a tangent about heaven and hell and whether or not it applies to aliens (if there are any) because it's a specifically earth centered and christianesque belief, and he quoted star wars, which is a running joke in our congregation that whenever you get too far off course a good star wars quote makes it all worth it.

FWIW our minister (interim) is gay and a practicing Hindu.

Another question was if UUs are just liberal christians, or if UU is even a religion. He said wellllllll, it's not my job to define that for you, it's my job to help you define that for yourself and THAT is the right answer...so by show of hands how many people here think UU is a liberal christian belief system. NO ONE raised their hand. Then he asked if we thought UU was a religion at all, raise your hand. Again, no one.

Keep in mind I'm in a really conservative area of the country...mostly christian. So this is a big deal to find people that are comfortable walking away from religion. And it's an even bigger deal for my kids to have a community of families and kids that welcome them the way they are, that are ok with atheist tshirts and scientific discussion during service. You should see the bumper stickers in the lot for this group....absolutely hilarious!

We celebrate the seasons/earth and quote scientists, peace activists, people who happen to have religion and people who dont. And it's a great venue for us to find social justice causes to focus our energy towards. When everyone around you is a christian, it's nice to just have a place to go to be around like minded folks. We joke that we meet on Sunday mornings because that's when the donuts are on sale









As for tithes...ummm no way! We have a pledge drive though to raise money to fund our building and programs, but it's all 100% transparent and the congregation knows where every dime is spent. It's made clear no one is at ALL obligated to offer any money nor is there any discussion of money that is 'owed to god' or any nonsense like that. It's just a community effort to make it work, if someone can't or doesn't want to contribute, it's a non issue.

We're really laid back LOL There was one sunday someone played the accordion during the meditation moment, and instead of meditating people started clapping and before you could blink a polka dance broke out. People are moving chairs and clapping and stomping feet yelling Opa! (don't know how greek meshed in....but anywhoo) and the minister said this was proof they (the trained ministers) don't genuinely have control over anything...LOL Now when we greet each other at the beginning, half the time he just goes to sit down for a few minutes because people just do their own thing LOL

There is structure to the service, and some is serious time for contemplation. But it's just awesome to feel 'not alone' in this sea of religion...to find a place where we can just relax and be US...happy atheist people!

Sorry for the book...

ETA: This Link is the newcomer questions to the UU in Eugene, from reading it that's pretty much what ours says too. HTH!


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## AuntieLiz

DH and I briefly considered attending a UU fellowship, but neither of us really craves the kind of social interaction or structured community that a church provides. There is a local Post-Mormon group here that we'd love to hang out with (we are in an online chat group with many of them), but so far haven't really felt drawn to that either, for similar reasons. The "forced socialization" of our religious upbringing kind of turned us off to wanting or needing that. Sunday is our family time, too, and for once it's nice to not have meetings, appointments and obligations. But I do think UU might be a fun way to teach kids about the world's many angles to mythology and belief systems, and at least expose them to various religions without indoctrinating them to any specific one, so that they can come to their own conclusions and make that choice for themselves. (DH and I were both born into a specific faith system, but were never allowed to "choose" one for ourselves, so we want to break that cycle with our own kids.)


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## Theoretica

ITA, I think if I didn't have kids, I wouldn't feel pulled to that either. But, being in an area where the FIRST question is 'where do you go to church', it got a lot easier for them when they had an answer...*sigh*


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## voicegrrl

I've always loved the idea of UU, one of my daughters even went to preschool at a UU church. The problem here is that the minister of the closest UU to our house is a former baptist minister and is still christian to some extent from what I've heard. I need to check into that further though. I've thought many Sundays that I'd like to at least check it out, but like someone else said, that's our family time and we are schedule is non-stop. I really enjoy having that one day to spend together hiking or other fun Sunday things.


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## beansmama

Personally, I NEED forced socialization...or for me, it's just not gonna happen, lol. I'm not very social. I'm a sahm who doesn't drive...just moved to a new town...needless to say, I don't get out much!









Dh and I decided to check out our local UU church this Sunday - xdh usually has DD's on sunday, so more than likely, if we end up going to this church often dd wont come that much - until her dad moves closer...I WILL be picking her up later in the day on Sunday though (since it's mothers day), but I personally wanted to check out the UU church before taking her - just to check it out, and besides, there isn't kids "church" on mothers day...I doubt my 5 yo will be that interested in whatever the topic is...you know kids


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## hollyvangogh

We have no UU church in town. But I'm not sure I mind. I like staying home on Sunday and feeling guilt free about it!


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## AngeliqueW

HELLO MAMAS!
So glad I found this thread!
My "spiritual" leanings are Animist and Deep Ecology. You know: tree-hugging dirt-worshipper.
We attend the local UU Church. If you're looking for a respectful supportive community of educated people, I highly recommend checking them out. I find the UUs to have all the best parts of Church (community, social causes, yard sales) without any of the worst parts (judgement, damnation, bejeweled cups).
I did see Religulous and I laughed even though Bill Maher is a jerk.
We say Bleh shoo for sneezes.
We celebrate the seasons with a mix of cultural rituals and personal family traditions. We have removed the religious and consumerist elements as much as possible. We focus on feasting and family. Our favorites are Earth Day and Thanksgiving.
DH had to explain to his 90 yr old Nana why DS is not baptised. I think husbands should have to deal with their family, I didn't want to be the "bad guy" (is that a cop out?).
I would like to create our own holidays/traditions and am curious if any of you have made up original holidays for your families.


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## Theoretica

That's cute about the bleh shoo LOL

Have you seen Dane Cook's comedy show? When we're around our atheist friends we point and say NOTHING HAPPENS WHEN YOU DIEEEEEEE in his really goofy voice.

Gotta be there, it's hilarious LOL


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## ~PurityLake~

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngeliqueW* 
HELLO MAMAS!

Hello!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngeliqueW* 
We say Bleh shoo for sneezes.

We mostly say Gesundheit, and sometimes Salud, both mean something along the lines of 'to your health' or 'I hope you're not ill'.

It's really cute hearing my little 2 and 3 year old say Gesundheit when the other one sneezes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngeliqueW* 
We celebrate the seasons with a mix of cultural rituals and personal family traditions. We have removed the religious and consumerist elements as much as possible. We focus on feasting and family. Our favorites are Earth Day and Thanksgiving.

I wish I could remove the consumerist portion of Christmas. My husband is so stuck on that. I don't care one bit for Thanksgiving outside of the fact that it's a day commonly spent feasting with family. Being part Native American, I don't see anything virtuous about that 'holiday'.


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## beansmama

Well...Dh and i decided to check out UU this sunday, so we'll see how that goes. I'm hoping to meet some potentially cool friends. I dunno...i just miss socialization, that's all. If it's too fruity for us, then ah well. At least we gave it a shot. It will have to be pretty awesome though if I'm going to give up my lazy sundays!

I only say that it might be TOO fruity because I don't necessarily know how the services will go, and although I think it's neat to learn about other religions (ie: religious study classes, books, etc)...I mostly think religion is idiotic and that people with "those" beliefs are just kidding themselves.

I'm not sure if it's because I'm fresh out of Christianity, so I'm still biter about the fear that was imposed on me (such as, I was terrified of demons up until...well, early summer of last year! I'm 25! That's ridiculous!) or what...but I don't really feel like egging people on in their sheer, blissful, ignorance.. Sorry, that's pretty harsh, but smart people believing in fairy tales just blows my mind. I'm not sure how i was able to believe it for so long.

Yeah, my tolerance for make believe is just pretty low...when it comes to adults, that is. My daughter can believe in unicorns all she wants









~Purity♥Lake~...I didn't think you were atheist or agnostic? I'm not trying to be snarky, but I just saw a post from a couple days ago by you asking for psychic help...kinda made me wonder. I have yet to meet an atheist/agnostic that believed in psychic abilities - even read an entire article in "Skeptic" about de-bunking psychics...it was pretty funny actually, If we had the $ to blow I totally would love for DH to go in for a cold reading just to mess with the psychic, lol


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## teale

Someone mentioned it above, and I'll reiterate it- I love being able to stay home on a Sunday with no guilt!

I have other things that I do during the week- LLL, an AP group, and some other minor things, so I stay fairly busy. I don't need to add one more thing to my plate, personally.


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## ~PurityLake~

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beansmama* 
~Purity♥Lake~...I didn't think you were atheist or agnostic? I'm not trying to be snarky, but I just saw a post from a couple days ago by you asking for psychic help...kinda made me wonder. I have yet to meet an atheist/agnostic that believed in psychic abilities - even read an entire article in "Skeptic" about de-bunking psychics...it was pretty funny actually, If we had the $ to blow I totally would love for DH to go in for a cold reading just to mess with the psychic, lol









Yes, I'm agnostic. I wouldn't say I believe in psychic abilities, since I don't believe in anything that I can't prove, which comes down to that I simply don't have any faith in anything. But, it doesn't hurt to ask and see what they (psychics) say on the forum, out of curiosity and hope.

I never did see if my post asking about my husband's missing keys ever got a response. Besides, I found them later that same day.









ETA: I would never pay money for a psychic. We're just too poor to justify such a silly expense.


----------



## beansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 
Someone mentioned it above, and I'll reiterate it- I love being able to stay home on a Sunday with no guilt!

I have other things that I do during the week- LLL, an AP group, and some other minor things, so I stay fairly busy. I don't need to add one more thing to my plate, personally.

Yeah - i have none of that. I'm new to Eugene (well, I've been here since December) and the few friends i did have up here have proved to not be very good ones. I don't drive...I stay home. That's about it.

Now i find out DH has to go to Portland for 3 weeks to work. He'll be home on the weekends (sun-mon) but i'm going to miss him terribly. He's even going to miss my birthday. He had been working late shift for FIVE weeks now (even though they were supposed to take turns working opening/closing) and next week (when he leaves) was the start of his early shift. First time he could eat with us in a month. I had DD all excited that we could do lots of family things - now i have to break the news to her. Ugh.

Well, at least my mom and dad live an hour away. They said i could stay with them if i start going stir crazy!


----------



## beansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
Yes, I'm agnostic. I wouldn't say I believe in psychic abilities, since I don't believe in anything that I can't prove, which comes down to that I simply don't have any faith in anything. But, it doesn't hurt to ask and see what they (psychics) say on the forum, out of curiosity and hope.

I never did see if my post asking about my husband's missing keys ever got a response. Besides, I found them later that same day.









ETA: I would never pay money for a psychic. We're just too poor to justify such a silly expense.

Well, fwiw, there have been scientific studies done to disprove psychic abilities. And they (the psychics, dowsers, etc) have failed to prove themselves.

That being said - i'm glad you found your keys


----------



## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beansmama* 
Yeah - i have none of that. I'm new to Eugene (well, I've been here since December) and the few friends i did have up here have proved to not be very good ones. I don't drive...I stay home. That's about it.

Now i find out DH has to go to Portland for 3 weeks to work. He'll be home on the weekends (sun-mon) but i'm going to miss him terribly. He's even going to miss my birthday. He had been working late shift for FIVE weeks now (even though they were supposed to take turns working opening/closing) and next week (when he leaves) was the start of his early shift. First time he could eat with us in a month. I had DD all excited that we could do lots of family things - now i have to break the news to her. Ugh.

Well, at least my mom and dad live an hour away. They said i could stay with them if i start going stir crazy!

Have you looked into an LLL meeting? I found some amazing women through LLL! It's nice to get out of the house once or twice a month, plus some of the other moms and I do weekly playdates.


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## AngeliqueW

I don't want anybody to think I'm a recruiter for the UU Church... but I will say that for us it works. We are new to this area and it feels like community. We don't feel guilty on the Sundays that we choose not to attend. Just sharing a positive review. Obviously it is not right for everyone.
I also attend a La Leche League meeting once a month.
Being a SAHM far from friends & family was starting to feel pathological for me until we made those connections. Sure, I could have joined groups based on other interests and I might if they're free!
Actually, if anybody knows of good ways to connect besides UU and LLL, please share!


----------



## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngeliqueW* 
Actually, if anybody knows of good ways to connect besides UU and LLL, please share!

We have a free play center called Parent Link. It's a good place to meet people. I've also made a friend IRL through MDC. Try visiting your local tribe in "Finding Your Tribe."


----------



## beansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 
Have you looked into an LLL meeting? I found some amazing women through LLL! It's nice to get out of the house once or twice a month, plus some of the other moms and I do weekly playdates.

No, I haven't...but I'm not currently nursing. I *did* nurse my dd til she was almost 4 though, and I have a baby coming this july that i plan on nursing...i might have to look into one, but should i wait?


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## beansmama

So we tried out the UU church here today. I'm not quite sure about it. A lot of it reminded me of regular church...I almost felt like it was a mother earth/new agey worship service. I thought the actual message part was decent, but it was really short (probably because it was mothers day and the kids stayed in the service...and there was a lot of story telling/singing prior to the message).

I just don't know how comfortable I am with the prayer, meditation, etc...I mean, it's not like he specified "we are praying to God"...but it seemed a little silly to me.

I'm kind of bummed, because i really wanted to love it. They were talking about pot lucks and this gardening event coming up that is really kid friendly...it all sounds so fun, but I almost feel like I'd be compromising MY (non)beliefs if i kept attending. I MIGHT give it one more chance...but probably not.

I REALLY REALLY REALLY don't mean to offend anyone here, but coming out of a christian faith recently, i felt like it was a church for the wishy washy - people that can't make up there mind about what to believe and just want to feel good in a community that resembles a church. Now, I dig the community part - but i'm not wishy washy in the least.

I am all for tolerance and treating people with other beliefs than I have with respect...because I can respect PEOPLE, but i don't respect the silly beliefs. Does anyone know where I'm coming from?

I'm not trying to call anyone out here at all, I just sincerely don't understand how a hardcore, 100% atheist could take that kind of environment seriously?

And I totally realize that this particular UU church may be way more fruity than the rest of them, lol, I'm just curious...


----------



## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beansmama* 
No, I haven't...but I'm not currently nursing. I *did* nurse my dd til she was almost 4 though, and I have a baby coming this july that i plan on nursing...i might have to look into one, but should i wait?


Heck no! Our group has lots of expecting moms! I think you'd enjoy it, a great way to meet other mom's.

Beansmama, that's the thing I heard about UU when I was looking them up online. I read that the groups can vary from a more christian feel to more atheistic feel, but it's hit or miss. Hearing that just made it even harder for me to get up on a Sunday and try the meeting out.


----------



## Theoretica

Quote:

Actually, if anybody knows of good ways to connect besides UU and LLL, please share!
That's the problem for my area of the country. Anything NOT UU is going to have a load of very religious people in it. Verrrrrrrry frustrating. There's fundamentalists at LLL talking about how they'll nurse as long as their husband thinks it's the right thing to do. Ugh.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beansmama* 
So we tried out the UU church here today. I'm not quite sure about it. A lot of it reminded me of regular church...I almost felt like it was a mother earth/new agey worship service. I thought the actual message part was decent, but it was really short (probably because it was mothers day and the kids stayed in the service...and there was a lot of story telling/singing prior to the message).

I just don't know how comfortable I am with the prayer, meditation, etc...I mean, it's not like he specified "we are praying to God"...but it seemed a little silly to me.

I'm kind of bummed, because i really wanted to love it. They were talking about pot lucks and this gardening event coming up that is really kid friendly...it all sounds so fun, but I almost feel like I'd be compromising MY (non)beliefs if i kept attending. I MIGHT give it one more chance...but probably not.

I REALLY REALLY REALLY don't mean to offend anyone here, but coming out of a christian faith recently, i felt like it was a church for the wishy washy - people that can't make up there mind about what to believe and just want to feel good in a community that resembles a church. Now, I dig the community part - but i'm not wishy washy in the least.

I am all for tolerance and treating people with other beliefs than I have with respect...because I can respect PEOPLE, but i don't respect the silly beliefs. Does anyone know where I'm coming from?

I'm not trying to call anyone out here at all, I just sincerely don't understand how a hardcore, 100% atheist could take that kind of environment seriously?

And I totally realize that this particular UU church may be way more fruity than the rest of them, lol, I'm just curious...

I totally understand what you are saying, I don't take it as 'calling anyone out' whatsoever. I think the crux of the issue might be that you said you are recently out of religion to begin with. I went years without wanting to do anything church related at all. When I stumbled onto the UUs I was at a place where I needed something for my kids to have a community of like minded families to offset the religious crap they encounter constantly from family, friends, neighbors, etc. I needed THAT more than I needed to be away from anything church related.

For me at least, you have to understand that our "secular" homeschool group still has a large number of Christians (not sure WHY exactly, they've got 15 OTHER groups to choose from







) so even there it's hard to be comfortable. I'm in a really religiously supportive area so finding somewhere that encourages actual THOUGHT and supports real science...that's a gold mine! Maybe you have a better support system than I have access to?

As for the prayer/meditation...for me, and the other atheists at our UU, we've talked about this. For the majority of us we use that time to reflect on whatever we want to reflect on. I don't have a problem with inward meditation. and I don't care if others think it means something to pray to whatever.

Personally, I don't mind if you ask me anything you want. I don't get offended easily so go for it







I take what I can use from UU, and I participate and give back where I'm comfortable. I like having a social justice venue that actively supports GLBT causes/agendas, pro-choice education, environmentalist issues, and where (in the midst of one of the reddest states in the country) I can sit back and crack a few Blue tinged jokes in a supportive crowd. I like that my kids are seeing there ARE more 'like us'. Sure, some of the trappings are 'churchish', but for our church it's the ritual that connects us, NOT religion. Our family goes to church MAYBE once a month. However, DH goes to their Man Club Meetings each month (guys + beer + stupid movie + discussion of said stupid movie, they rotate this with poker night LOL) and I love the potlucks and the kids activities. The Sunday service itself works for us sometimes, and other times we don't go hardly at all.

I can understand your questions about it all for an atheist family. I remember when someone suggested I give UU a try a long time ago, it took me years to be at a point where it was something that worked for me. It may never work for you, or maybe someday it will.

HTH?


----------



## 2xy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beansmama* 
I'm not trying to call anyone out here at all, I just sincerely don't understand how a hardcore, 100% atheist could take that kind of environment seriously?

I'm a hardcore, 100% atheist and I've been to a few different UU churches. One in DC, one in VA, and two in RI. They've all had a different "feel." Out of all of them, the only one I couldn't stomach was the one in VA. It was very ritualistic, sort of pagany-spiritualistic stuff.

The rest of them have been more like a community for philosophers and enquirers. Seriously, the only reason I don't take part anymore is because I work most Sundays. I've never witnessed any real prayer at any of the UU churches I've gone to.


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## teale

Have you considered starting an AP group in your area? Facebook is an amazing way to branch out, and if you can find your city in a local mom's group, see if there are other attachment parents out there that want to gather together!


----------



## beansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
I'm a hardcore, 100% atheist and I've been to a few different UU churches. One in DC, one in VA, and two in RI. They've all had a different "feel." Out of all of them, the only one I couldn't stomach was the one in VA. It was very ritualistic, sort of pagany-spiritualistic stuff.

The rest of them have been more like a community for philosophers and enquirers. Seriously, the only reason I don't take part anymore is because I work most Sundays. I've never witnessed any real prayer at any of the UU churches I've gone to.

Yeah...I felt like this was "very ritualistic, pagany-spiritual". Not my thing at all. I had a feeling all the churches were different...there is another one in Springfield, which is practically in the same town i'm currently in - so maybe i'll try that one out and see if it's less, um, religious?

And the prayer was geared towards our earth mother which ended in an "amen" and "blessed be". They also had what i felt was basically like a prayer request segment - people spoke out names they were thinking of and then a candle was lit for the person... and It wasn't a christian prayer...but still...


----------



## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beansmama* 
Yeah...I felt like this was "very ritualistic, pagany-spiritual". Not my thing at all. I had a feeling all the churches were different...there is another one in Springfield, which is practically in the same town i'm currently in - so maybe i'll try that one out and see if it's less, um, religious?

And the prayer was geared towards our earth mother which ended in an "amen" and "blessed be". They also had what i felt was basically like a prayer request segment - people spoke out names they were thinking of and then a candle was lit for the person... and It wasn't a christian prayer...but still...

Huh, that's weird. That definitely would not have been my cup of tea either.


----------



## ~PurityLake~

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
That's the problem for my area of the country. Anything NOT UU is going to have a load of very religious people in it. Verrrrrrrry frustrating. There's fundamentalists at LLL talking about how they'll nurse as long as their husband thinks it's the right thing to do. Ugh.

I totally understand what you are saying, I don't take it as 'calling anyone out' whatsoever. I think the crux of the issue might be that you said you are recently out of religion to begin with. I went years without wanting to do anything church related at all. When I stumbled onto the UUs I was at a place where I needed something for my kids to have a community of like minded families to offset the religious crap they encounter constantly from family, friends, neighbors, etc. I needed THAT more than I needed to be away from anything church related.

As for the prayer/meditation...for me, and the other atheists at our UU, we've talked about this. For the majority of us we use that time to reflect on whatever we want to reflect on. I don't have a problem with inward meditation. and I don't care if others think it means something to pray to whatever.

Personally, I don't mind if you ask me anything you want. I don't get offended easily so go for it







I take what I can use from UU, and I participate and give back where I'm comfortable. I like having a social justice venue that actively supports GLBT causes/agendas, pro-choice education, environmentalist issues, and where (in the midst of one of the reddest states in the country) I can sit back and crack a few Blue tinged jokes in a supportive crowd. I like that my kids are seeing there ARE more 'like us'. The Sunday service itself works for us sometimes, and other times we don't go hardly at all.


This is much how I feel. I hadn't attended any type of church from the time I was 20 until I was 31. That's a long stretch of no church, in this country. Only after I had my children, did I think to check out the local UU church. There is only one in Anchorage, so for me, it's this or nothing. We don't go every week, sometimes we've gone two weeks in a row, and other times there are months we don't go at all. It mostly depends on how tired I am and how late I sleep in, since it is on the other side of town than the side we live. I really like the activities for children, the total acceptance and tolerance, the community socialist activities and the encouragement in letting each person find their own truth. I've been raised Catholic, baptised at and attended a southern fundamentalist baptist church, been a member of regular baptist, methodist, and lutheran churches and have done personal religious exploration of my own over the years. So the UU I attend does not seem churchy to me at all. The 'minister', last time I went, had us singing and dancing with a silly song called 'my heart to your heart' and it was just good, happy fun. Plus, the incorporated music appreciation week into the service, which meant members performed pieces they'd practiced, and the music was quite varied and none of the songs had 'god' in them.


----------



## AngeliqueW

*2xy*, you're right. Each UU church is definitely different. Ours is lay-lead and invites guest speakers on lots of topics. UU wont work for everyone and that's OK.
I hope you find something you're comfortable with *Beansmama*.
I like the idea about starting an AP group in my area *teale* ... hmmm....


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## teale

Our AP is pretty good. There are a few mom's who come because it's AP, a few that are wanting to learn more, and a few that come because they see "playgroup" and automatically think it's for everyone.

It's nice to have a core set of Mama's in the area that I know practice the same things I do when it comes to parenting, and it so nice to go somewhere and not feel like I have explain everything I do.

The other thing that's awesome about our little group, is a number of them are agnostic/atheist too, so it's nice to have that in common as well


----------



## AutumnAir

Hi - I'm going to jump in and introduce myself. Can't believe I've been on MDC for a year and only just now seen this tribe.

Well, I'm Irish, so of course was raised Catholic, though my parents were reasonably open-minded and encouraged me to learn about other religions too. At a very young age I realised that Catholicism wasn't for me - I had a lot of problems with the illogicality of it and whenever I asked questions in religion classes in school to try to understand better I was treated as being naughty and sent to stand in the corner.

I never had any real longing to join another religion, and the more I learned and read about things the more convinced I became that organised religion has a lot to answer for, and is certainly not for me.

But because of my religious upbringing, and the fact that I am quite spiritual and introspective I hung on to my belief in God or a higher power - a reason for it all. I have only very recently after a lot of turmoil in my own life, reading, researching and self-questioning, finally fully realised and admitted to myself that I am an atheist.

I don't think it makes me any less spiritual though. DH is fortunately also an atheist though he was already one when we met. Still he has 12 years on me so plenty of time to come to that conclusion!









We say 'Bless you' when someone sneezes too. I don't particularly like it, but can't find anything I prefer and don't feel comfortable not saying anything at all. Plus I figure blessing someone is just wishing them well.


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## bella_stranger

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AutumnAir* 
We say 'Bless you' when someone sneezes too. I don't particularly like it, but can't find anything I prefer and don't feel comfortable not saying anything at all. Plus I figure blessing someone is just wishing them well.

ha! we were just talking about that yesterday. my 2 yr old loves saying 'Bless-you when some one sneezes... I guess I have decided that it can mean that the person is blessing you... not god. ?


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## bella_stranger

I don't know if this link only works in the UK, but it's a great little 5-minute interview with richard dawkins:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8049711.stm
thought you all might enjoy


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## teale

Quote:

We say 'Bless you' when someone sneezes too. I don't particularly like it, but can't find anything I prefer and don't feel comfortable not saying anything at all. Plus I figure blessing someone is just wishing them well.
We do the same thing. Except the inlaws say "god bless you" so I think we may have to address that with DS in a couple of years. But for now, that's what works, just a basic "bless you".


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## Theoretica

So, I've seen mention of the concept that "I'm atheist but I'm not teaching it to my kids' and I don't follow it.

I'm atheist because there's no god. Why wouldn't I teach my kids accordingly? I'm not agnostic...although I can see parents who are agnostic would teach their kids maybe there is or maybe there isn't. But why is it perceived as wrong to teach my kids there is no god but it's not wrong to teach them there is?

Am I making sense? I might post a s/o thread but I could see it disintegrating over in RS, iykwim lol


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## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
I'm atheist because there's no god. Why wouldn't I teach my kids accordingly?

I'm with you on that. I wonder if maybe it stems from having been raised that one's parent's beliefs are absolute truth. I could see if you grew up with strict religious upbringing you might not want to force your belief or non-belief on your own children.

However, I think it's important to teach your children what you think is true. And if the day comes that they disagree, that's when you back off.

I also think it's important to teach children *about* other beliefs/religions. If I had been taught the truth about my former religion before I got proselytized I would have known better, kwim?


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## Theoretica

Totally! I completely agree with you!

To me its like teaching the kids anything else about science or the world around them. Some things just ARE. That doesn't make it bad or wrong, it just IS. I do get it that some people aren't there yet/ever and that some people don't agree. I don't think teaching my kids to treat those people with respect conflicts with teaching them there is no god.

Hard to explain...LOL


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## lmk1

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngeliqueW* 
Being a SAHM far from friends & family was starting to feel pathological for me until we made those connections. Sure, I could have joined groups based on other interests and I might if they're free!
Actually, if anybody knows of good ways to connect besides UU and LLL, please share!

Have you looked at meetup.com? One day going stir crazy (I'm a WAHM), I joined about 10+ groups, and some of them are actually pretty good. There's one that's for atheists and they do some potlucks and other activities that are family oriented. Nothing replaces having close friends close by though. We're far from our family and friends, and I go stir crazy quite often!


----------



## lmk1

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beansmama* 
So we tried out the UU church here today. I'm not quite sure about it. A lot of it reminded me of regular church...I almost felt like it was a mother earth/new agey worship service. I thought the actual message part was decent, but it was really short (probably because it was mothers day and the kids stayed in the service...and there was a lot of story telling/singing prior to the message).

I just don't know how comfortable I am with the prayer, meditation, etc...I mean, it's not like he specified "we are praying to God"...but it seemed a little silly to me.

I'm kind of bummed, because i really wanted to love it. They were talking about pot lucks and this gardening event coming up that is really kid friendly...it all sounds so fun, but I almost feel like I'd be compromising MY (non)beliefs if i kept attending. I MIGHT give it one more chance...but probably not.

I REALLY REALLY REALLY don't mean to offend anyone here, but coming out of a christian faith recently, i felt like it was a church for the wishy washy - people that can't make up there mind about what to believe and just want to feel good in a community that resembles a church. Now, I dig the community part - but i'm not wishy washy in the least.

I am all for tolerance and treating people with other beliefs than I have with respect...because I can respect PEOPLE, but i don't respect the silly beliefs. Does anyone know where I'm coming from?

I'm not trying to call anyone out here at all, I just sincerely don't understand how a hardcore, 100% atheist could take that kind of environment seriously?

And I totally realize that this particular UU church may be way more fruity than the rest of them, lol, I'm just curious...

You sound like me...I'm just atheist, and in addition I don't come from any kind of religious background. I feel that a lot of these "religion replacement" traditions (like Sunday school) are because people grew up with religion and are not sure how to replace the social void when they're no longer part of that community. DH's family is pretty atheist, but they go to a UU fellowship and I don't think there's any "fruitiness" involved...they have speakers on various subjects and fun get togethers. Although, I remember when ds was born they wanted to do some naming ceremony with him, and I thought that it was giving it "spiritual meaning" that I personally didn't feel I needed, so we didn't do it.


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## adlib77

I call myself a secular humanist - does that count?









I haven't had time to read the whole thread - but cool beans! We go to a UU church and have varying beliefs ranging from a 6 year old who told me she believes god made the big bang to a self-acclaimed 9 year old Buddhist and an 8 year old who has said there is no proof of god, therefore s/he does not exist. The 4.5 month old is still working it out.

I'll try to catch up on the discussion!


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## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
So, I've seen mention of the concept that "I'm atheist but I'm not teaching it to my kids' and I don't follow it.

I'm atheist because there's no god. Why wouldn't I teach my kids accordingly? I'm not agnostic...although I can see parents who are agnostic would teach their kids maybe there is or maybe there isn't. But why is it perceived as wrong to teach my kids there is no god but it's not wrong to teach them there is?

Am I making sense? I might post a s/o thread but I could see it disintegrating over in RS, iykwim lol


Totally makes sense. DH and I have spoken about this at length, and we've come to conclusion over and over again, that all we want is to make sure we raise a tolerant, well adjusted, embracing, and understanding child. I don't want to turn my child into an ignorant jerk (and this can swing both ways, right?). I want him to know that there are many views in the world and that it's okay for everyone to have a different understanding of the "meaning of life".

I can't bring myself to teach him about god either. I know he's going to learn about it somewhere along the line, or ask about it rather, but I'm not making it part of the discussion, until he brings it forward to me.


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## Contrariety

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 
Totally makes sense. DH and I have spoken about this at length, and we've come to conclusion over and over again, that all we want is to make sure we raise a tolerant, well adjusted, embracing, and understanding child. I don't want to turn my child into an ignorant jerk (and this can swing both ways, right?). I want him to know that there are many views in the world and that it's okay for everyone to have a different understanding of the "meaning of life".

Well stated.


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## EFmom

Joining this thread--better late than never.

I was raised in a very observant Roman Catholic family, Catholic school complete with nuns, the whole nine yards. Dh was raised mainline Protestant. I knew from the time I was 7 that the Catholic church was not for me, budding feminist that I was.







Dh didn't like church but never much talked about it.

I tried, but was really lying to myself because I never truly believed in god. We were Friends for several years in a couple of meetings as we moved around some. We went to a UMC church for several years after the kids came, and after they came out against gay clergy, that was the end of that.

We now belong to a UU congregation. Dh is involved and I'm not. I'm just done with the whole religion thing, and honestly, the UU services don't do anything for me. I'm not a ritual kinda person, and while I like the social action, it does feel to me like a pretend religion for people who really aren't religous, like beansmama said. No offense to those for whom UU works--it just doesn't work for me and in some ways I wish it did.

Dh takes the kids. There are some great programs for the kids, like the sex ed program and the year they take visiting other congregations. But I have no desire to be active in it at all.

I tell the kids what I believe. I don't try to make them believe that there is no god, but I do teach them that there is no objective evidence that there is a god.


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## teale

Interesting discussion point:

For those of you (and there seems to be quite a few of us) who came from a rather structured religious upbringing, how do you find your relationship with your family now that you have branched out of the organized religion genre? How do you deal with family members who balk at you when you suggest that you won't even teach your DC about god?

My family is very LDS, to the point of fundamentalism. I have a lot of LDS friends, and respect their lives, just as they do the same for mine. My family however, takes everything to the most extreme letter. My brother, for instance, believes he'll die if he has caffeine in any form. It's beyond infuriating for me because I worry that this sort of over the top behavior may pour into their relationship with DS.

DH's family is one of those family who say they are religious but haven't been to church in years. They pray at Sunday dinner, which makes me superbly uncomfortable, but it's their home, and they can do as they wish. DH's dad has gone as far as to say that people don't believe in god must have something wrong with them.







(sarcastic thumbs up there).

I don't like getting into debates about religion. I find that they go in circles, and the circles tend to get smaller and smaller, and it's pointless. I have always respected everyone's right to believe as they wish, it's just eye rolling, that I say, "Yeah, I'm not sure about the whole god thing" that people get up in arms, about something, they legitimately cannot prove.

We're having some issues surrounding boundaries on DH's side, and I think we're going to have to state the whole, "We're his parents, we're going to do what we think is best for him, like it or not, but you gotta shut up and respect us".

Anyone run into issues with family members not respecting your choice to let your child be religion or god-free?


----------



## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 
all we want is to make sure we raise a tolerant, well adjusted, embracing, and understanding child. I don't want to turn my child into an ignorant jerk (and this can swing both ways, right?). I want him to know that there are many views in the world and that it's okay for everyone to have a different understanding of the "meaning of life".

I guess I disagree with this philosophy. I don't want my daughter to be tolerant of religious delusions, even though I do want her to be tolerant of the people who hold them. I think the evidence, and rational thinking lead to the conclusion that there is no god and I want her to know that's what I think.


----------



## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 

Anyone run into issues with family members not respecting your choice to let your child be religion or god-free?

DD is still a baby so it isn't an issue yet. But I suspect DH's TBM family will give us trouble some day. Fortunately they live very far away.


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## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hollyvangogh* 
I guess I disagree with this philosophy. I don't want my daughter to be tolerant of religious delusions, even though I do want her to be tolerant of the people who hold them. I think the evidence, and rational thinking lead to the conclusion that there is no god and I want her to know that's what I think.

Right, but what I'm saying, is that I want him to be tolerant of others opinions. Sure, he doesn't have to believe what they do, but I do want him to respect them, and understand they have the right to believe that.

That's what I'm getting at, does that make it clearer?

And also, I really want to make sure he knows that curiosity about these things is so awesome! I want him to know it's good to question, and to see flaws in certain accepted thoughts as well. I was told I could never question anything, and tolerance was not something that was applied in our life. Of course, it was expected that people would tolerate OUR beliefs, but everyone else was not worthy of respect.


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## pixiekisses

Oh, here you are!
Joining in, we are atheist, both me, my dear and all the kids who are old enough to have an opinion. They chosen themselves to not believe. I've never believed, ever, neither has my dear.
Most of our friends are also atheist, and lots of our families. We don't have anyone close to us even remotely trying to preach to the kids. (Luckily, so we don't have to deal with stopping them from that.)
They are also in private school/daycare who are, by our countrys law, not allowed to preach or teach any religion as the truth. They have to tell the kids equally about all the religions.
This is pretty new though, back when I was in school they preached to us about christianity. The only choise we had was having the other class instead of religion classes, called something like "ethics class" where they thought us about morals, ethics, atheism, humanism, and some about all the religions neutrally. I had that class of course.

Anyway, long ramble. Glad to have found the tribe! Re. to sneezing and "bless you" I don't say it, but there's a different word in the language of this country, derived from latin, which means "may it be of good to you".


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## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 
Right, but what I'm saying, is that I want him to be tolerant of others opinions. Sure, he doesn't have to believe what they do, but I do want him to respect them, and understand they have the right to believe that.

That's what I'm getting at, does that make it clearer?

I think I understand. What I'm saying is I don't want DD to be tolerant of _ideas_ that are bad ideas, nor to respect _beliefs_ that are completely ridiculous. I think we can tolerate people w/o tolerating their opinions.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index...ge=smoker_26_6
http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutrel...ctReligion.htm

I'm a bit of a hardliner on the issue. For me it's like breastfeeding. I respect people who _choose_ to formula feed (not talking about people who do it for extenuating circumstances). But I still think it's a really stupid/bad decision with no evidence to support it. That doesn't make the people bad or stupid of course. And that's what I'm getting at. I'll teach DD that we need to be tolerant of people but that doesn't mean we have to respect their ideas about the world.


----------



## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hollyvangogh* 
I think I understand. What I'm saying is I don't want DD to be tolerant of _ideas_ that are bad ideas, nor to respect _beliefs_ that are completely ridiculous. I think we can tolerate people w/o tolerating their opinions.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index...ge=smoker_26_6
http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutrel...ctReligion.htm

I'm a bit of a hardliner on the issue. For me it's like breastfeeding. I respect people who _choose_ to formula feed (not talking about people who do it for extenuating circumstances). But I still think it's a really stupid/bad decision with no evidence to support it. That doesn't make the people bad or stupid of course. And that's what I'm getting at. I'll teach DD that we need to be tolerant of people but that doesn't mean we have to respect their ideas about the world.

I totally think we're on the same page, we're just wording it differently!


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## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 
I totally think we're on the same page, we're just wording it differently!









Well then, I guess I'll step down from my soap box and join you sane folks.


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## lmk1

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hollyvangogh* 
I think I understand. What I'm saying is I don't want DD to be tolerant of _ideas_ that are bad ideas, nor to respect _beliefs_ that are completely ridiculous. I think we can tolerate people w/o tolerating their opinions.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index...ge=smoker_26_6
http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutrel...ctReligion.htm

I'm a bit of a hardliner on the issue. For me it's like breastfeeding. I respect people who _choose_ to formula feed (not talking about people who do it for extenuating circumstances). But I still think it's a really stupid/bad decision with no evidence to support it. That doesn't make the people bad or stupid of course. And that's what I'm getting at. I'll teach DD that we need to be tolerant of people but that doesn't mean we have to respect their ideas about the world.

I think like you do about breastfeeding and about religion, but I think it's hard for kids to differentiate between attitudes towards people and attitudes towards their beliefs. I think kids tend to be very literal and lack the experience of being in someone else's shoes. I plan on explaining what we think to ds, but I will be careful to avoid "ridicule" of any ideas so that he doesn't then ridicule when he's talking to someone who believes that. Obviously it all depends on age...


----------



## treehugz

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 
Anyone run into issues with family members not respecting your choice to let your child be religion or god-free?









: I'm all alone amongst my family and my in-laws, who are all fundamental christians of the it's-my-duty-to-proselytize sort... sadly this includes dh too. I don't know how to deal with it. My family knows how I think and it's usually not an issue, but for dh's sake, it's hush-hush among the in-laws. There's so much propaganda they send our way (for instance, disguised as presents for dd), the constant inclusion of Jesus/God in every conversation ("well, praise the lord!"), and of course the never-ending self-righteous judgment that must be stated about any and every topic (like when I was talking with a friend about what sign she was, my mil butted in to say "oh, we can't talk about that! Astrology is the work of satan!"







). But enough of my rant... I'd love to hear some ideas for how to deal with this before my dd (15mo) gets much older.


----------



## beansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
So, I've seen mention of the concept that "I'm atheist but I'm not teaching it to my kids' and I don't follow it.

I'm atheist because there's no god. Why wouldn't I teach my kids accordingly? I'm not agnostic...although I can see parents who are agnostic would teach their kids maybe there is or maybe there isn't. But why is it perceived as wrong to teach my kids there is no god but it's not wrong to teach them there is?

Am I making sense? I might post a s/o thread but I could see it disintegrating over in RS, iykwim lol

ITA.

My current "issue" with DD however is I raised her Christian. She's 5 now, but i really pounded it into her head via christian (preschool) homeschool, daily children bible readings, constantly praying, playing christian music, veggie tales, etc. etc...she totally believes. So i do tell her I don't believe - but I also tell her it's okay if she wants to believe right now. I really don't want to take that away from her - especially since I got divorced a year ago and am currently re-married with a baby due in july - that's A LOT of changes for a little girl, yanno?

But dh and I just tell her the truth in a gentle way any time she asks. I know that when she's older she'll be more ready for it. I do NOT plan on teaching my kids this or that may be right - i too am an *atheist*. I don't waver on my disbelief. I don't think everyone is right. I do plan on telling my kids that many different people from all over believe different things - and giving them somewhat of a religious knowledge - but not in a reverent way. Just so they know. Because it IS out there...they'll hear it from someone, might as well be me, dh or xh so we can debunk it before they start to get carried away









Nothing is wrong with telling your kid there is no god. There ISN'T. People will think that's horrible and cruel...mostly because they think you're damning your kid (and yourself) to hell (hahahahahahaha







) but eh, whatever. We can't change silly people. I say it's much more cruel terrifying your child with demons and whatnot. Blech.

On another note i can't wait until i get some money! I really want that raising freethinkers book - and parenting beyond belief! Has anyone read them? opinions?


----------



## beansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lmk1* 
You sound like me...I'm just atheist, and in addition I don't come from any kind of religious background. I feel that a lot of these "religion replacement" traditions (like Sunday school) are because people grew up with religion and are not sure how to replace the social void when they're no longer part of that community. DH's family is pretty atheist, but they go to a UU fellowship and I don't think there's any "fruitiness" involved...they have speakers on various subjects and fun get togethers. Although, I remember when ds was born they wanted to do some naming ceremony with him, and I thought that it was giving it "spiritual meaning" that I personally didn't feel I needed, so we didn't do it.

Yeah - they had a dedication ceremony, it might be different than the naming one - but they did talk about the girls name. It was more for the church - dedicating themselves to help raise the girl, but yeah, pretty spiritual...the girl (5?) was totally embarrassed, kinda cute though, lol. I wouldn't do it with my baby...

It's definitely to fill the social void. Funny thing is, i never really felt "connected" when i attended my (christian) church. It's just being *part* of a group, i suppose. And i'm just plain lonely. Hell, i'd be happy just having a couple families come over for a potluck or bbq at a park once a month or so! I just want to make connections - just not deal with the quasi-religious liberal BS in the process though


----------



## beansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hollyvangogh* 
I guess I disagree with this philosophy. I don't want my daughter to be tolerant of religious delusions, even though I do want her to be tolerant of the people who hold them. I think the evidence, and rational thinking lead to the conclusion that there is no god and I want her to know that's what I think.

Okay, i guess i should figure out how to do that "multi quote" thing...i hope my multiple postings aren't irritating anyone too much, lol. Sorry!

I *so* agree with this. I feel like UU is too tolerant of religious delusions - therefore making it out of my comfort zone. We should certainly teach our kids to be respectful of people. I don't want to my kids going up to strangers preaching the anti-gospel or teasing them or anything, but at the same time, i want my kids to be full aware that these people are, quite frankly, totally ridiculous in their beliefs.


----------



## pixiekisses

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hollyvangogh* 
(..) I also think it's important to teach children *about* other beliefs/religions. If I had been taught the truth about my former religion before I got proselytized I would have known better, kwim?

Yeah, totally.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hollyvangogh* 
I guess I disagree with this philosophy. I don't want my daughter to be tolerant of religious delusions, even though I do want her to be tolerant of the people who hold them. I think the evidence, and rational thinking lead to the conclusion that there is no god and I want her to know that's what I think.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *beansmama* 
(..) I *so* agree with this. I feel like UU is too tolerant of religious delusions - therefore making it out of my comfort zone. We should certainly teach our kids to be respectful of people. I don't want to my kids going up to strangers preaching the anti-gospel or teasing them or anything, but at the same time, i want my kids to be full aware that these people are, quite frankly, totally ridiculous in their beliefs.

Yes, indeed, I agree.


----------



## beansmama

I'm totally frustrated right now!

This isn't really atheist related, so i'm not sure if it's okay to post it here - but we CAN talk about life in general, right? Hope so...lol! ANYWAY!

So, my mom just called me. My brother and I live in Eugene (not together, just in the same town) and she lives an hour away from us. He's 21, total party guy (drinking, drugs, etc), irresponsible, etc. I do love him - but disagree with a lot of aspects of his life (did i mention he's CHRISTIAN? great example, right?). Anyway, his car just got stolen last night for the second time in a year.

This isn't his fault - eugene has very high rates of car theft, especially for hondas. His doors were probably locked...

Anyway, my mom just called me to ask if she could tell the cops/insurance agents that she was letting DH and I borrow the car when it was stolen. The car is in her name. Apparently, my brother has a DUI and insurance will go sky high (as in a couple hundred more than it currently is) if they know HE was driving the car.

I would possibly say no problem, except my DH is 2 hours away on a business trip and I don't have a license (yeah, i'm 25 and don't drive...). I don't think it's okay to lie to the cops if questioned, telling them yes, DH was driving the car and we were at my brothers (in the middle of the night? wtf?) when it was stolen. This especially seems wrong because DH wasn't even anywhere NEAR eugene...so it's a totally obviously lie that could easily be disproven! I doubt he'd be comfortable with this.

My parents have helped us out. Probably about $700 towards the wedding, plus they let us use their van when our car broke down. My mom told me i wouldn't even need to TELL DH! WTH? I told her i am not comfortable lying to my husband and also not comfortable giving her permission to say he was driving the car - therefore making it highly likely that he'd have to lie to cops/insurance people, especially without talking to him first.

She started saying family should do anything for each other and she'd do anything for her kids and blah blah blah. I'm irritated she's trying to guilt me into this. I'm not doing it - but i feel like she's going to use it against me later and not help us out if we truly need it.

Ugh. I just needed to vent. This is totally not cool IMO. I don't know if she thought because we're atheist (and therefore have no morals???) that we'd be okay with lying? I have morals, and think this is totally unethical and immoral. Gah. Opinions? Advice?


----------



## EFmom

Well, personally I wouldn't. I would find it to be unethical. Insurance fraud isn't something I'd be comfortable undertaking.

And no, I don't think it's OK to ask someone to commit insurance fraud because they are family.


----------



## pixiekisses

I certainly wouldn't do it.
I would never commit insurance fraud, not for family either, that's bull saying family should do anything for eachother. Not anything, not commiting crimes or lying.


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## super mamabug

Completely inappropriate and out of line for a parent to ask their child to break the law. She is the one who should be protecting you not asking you to jeapordize your own family. Don't do it. She is out of line not you.


----------



## beansmama

Thanks for the replies! Insurance fraud...i guess i should've thought of THOSE words and mentioned them to her! That might've done the trick.

Thankfully, the car was found, undamaged. She called to let me know, and didn't mention our previous convo at all, so i'm just going to let it slide.

Thanks for letting me vent!


----------



## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beansmama* 
Thanks for the replies! Insurance fraud...i guess i should've thought of THOSE words and mentioned them to her! That might've done the trick.

Thankfully, the car was found, undamaged. She called to let me know, and didn't mention our previous convo at all, so i'm just going to let it slide.

Thanks for letting me vent!

I'm glad you found the car, but man, what a crappy situation to be put in.

In regard to our discussion about teaching our kids about the ridiculousness that can be organized religion- how do you teach them, in a gentle way without coming across as militant as those who are fundamentalist in their religious beliefs. I suppose that's my greatest fear- I don't want DS to think he can't question me, because I think questioning is the biggest part of figuring out what's a load of crap and what isn't.

So far, we're hopeful to keep any propaganda out of his life, and explain things as they come up, but I really do want him to feel free to make his own choices. I'll definitely engage him in how I feel about things, and explain them to him, but I don't want him to feel like I did with regard to religion growing up. I was petrified that if I didn't believe as my parents did, they wouldn't love me. And, partially, that was true, but I shudder to think that even on the opposite side of the religion spectrum, that I may cause those feelings if I come across too militant or strong or even make him believe what I believe.

Does that make sense? I suppose a lot of this will have to do with how we deal with questions and how our family life is, but I don't want to take his right to make those decisions for his self. I believe that 'spirituality' is just as much a personal decision as who you vote for, and I don't think anyone should tell you what you should or shouldn't do.

That doesn't sound too wishy washy does it?


----------



## super mamabug

As far as teaching children I see no need to "teach" atheism as I find it difficult to teach non-belief. My parenting plan in regards to religion spirituality is -
1) Get them excited about science. We all have a need for awe and wonder in our lives. Teach them about biology, evolution, ecosystems and astronomy. Teach them to wonder at their small place in the universe.

2) Teach them the history and mythology of our species. The great hero stories of Greece and India. Teach them these stories along side biblical ones. Put them in their context. Show genesis along with other creation myths. Show Jesus with Horus, Mithras, and Krishna. They will live in a religious world and I do not want them being ignorant of that.

3) Teach them to question authority, and yes this includes me. This is a big one. It is difficult to buy into religion when you have been taught to question. Most religions do not welcome true questioning. One is expected to believe and have faith. If you are accustomed to questioning everything, it is difficult to 'fall in line' in order to have religion.

4) Be honest about my thoughts on god and how I arrived at them. Answer their questions as they come up. I will not preach atheism, but I won't hide it and I will answer questions fully.

5) Be prepared for the big questions. They will ask them. If you don't provide the answers someone else will.

I really recommend "parenting beyond belief". It is an excellent compilations of essays and stories for athiest/agnostic parents.


----------



## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *super mamabug* 
I really recommend "parenting beyond belief". It is an excellent compilations of essays and stories for athiest/agnostic parents.

Yes!


----------



## beansmama

super mamabug has some really great ideas! I'm not big into science (don't throw stones, please, lol!) but DH is so I'm sure he'll instill a love of it in our children.

I don't really feel like there is anything to "teach" about being atheist? Just the truth, really. That may sound as militant as a religious nut, but the truth speaks for itself...and for crying out loud...it IS true, hahaha!









I'm excited to get the parenting beyond belief & raising free thinkers books. I definitely agree that kids should be able to question authority! They shouldn't be *rude*...but nothing is rude about politely disagreeing or wondering!


----------



## treehugz

Quote:


Originally Posted by *super mamabug* 
As far as teaching children I see no need to "teach" atheism as I find it difficult to teach non-belief. My parenting plan in regards to religion spirituality is -
1) Get them excited about science. We all have a need for awe and wonder in our lives. Teach them about biology, evolution, ecosystems and astronomy. Teach them to wonder at their small place in the universe.

2) Teach them the history and mythology of our species. The great hero stories of Greece and India. Teach them these stories along side biblical ones. Put them in their context. Show genesis along with other creation myths. Show Jesus with Horus, Mithras, and Krishna. They will live in a religious world and I do not want them being ignorant of that.

3) Teach them to question authority, and yes this includes me. This is a big one. It is difficult to buy into religion when you have been taught to question. Most religions do not welcome true questioning. One is expected to believe and have faith. If you are accustomed to questioning everything, it is difficult to 'fall in line' in order to have religion.

4) Be honest about my thoughts on god and how I arrived at them. Answer their questions as they come up. I will not preach atheism, but I won't hide it and I will answer questions fully.

5) Be prepared for the big questions. They will ask them. If you don't provide the answers someone else will.\

awesome plan! thanks for sharing... i need to write these on a notecard so i can refer to them as my dd grows


----------



## EFmom

Super mamabug's suggestions are excellent.

To that I would add:
Teach them research and critical thinking skills.

Once I started reading the bible with a critical eye, and researching how and where the manuscripts were obtained and translated, along with the political climate of the day, Christianity just fell apart.


----------



## teale

I know that you can't "teach", but for lack of a better term, I use it









Thanks for recommendations. I think for us, we're just going to be a lead by example type family, and answer questions as they come up.

Luckily, we live far away from my family who are the fundamentalist, so we don't have to be worried or concerned about constant inundation of religion. DH's family is another story though, but other then the fact that they just think we have no soul for not believing in god.


----------



## Contrariety

I get giddy just thinking about the day DS begins to question authority. I really do.


----------



## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Contrariety* 
I get giddy just thinking about the day DS begins to question authority. I really do.

Your son is lucky to have a mother who feels that way. I had great parents. But their one meaningful mistake was punishing me for questioning authority. I'm still working on undoing that programing.


----------



## Theoretica

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hollyvangogh* 
Your son is lucky to have a mother who feels that way. I had great parents. But their one meaningful mistake was punishing me for questioning authority. I'm still working on undoing that programing.

A HUGE 'yeah that' to this.

OMG it's been YEARS and I'm still working on it.


----------



## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Contrariety* 
I get giddy just thinking about the day DS begins to question authority. I really do.

Love this attitude too! I still have issues with standing up to those who are in authoritarian positions.


----------



## AngeliqueW

Yeah! *Super Mamabug*! and *EFmom*! Great Plan!!!
*Contrariety* & co: My mom was the "question authority" type and while I appreciate it in many ways, I must admit that I chafed many teachers and bosses over the years. I was beyond socially awkward! I worry about the balance between free thinker and social misfit. It can be hard to navigate in a culture where the herd mentality rules. Does this make any sense?


----------



## ~PurityLake~

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngeliqueW* 
Yeah! *Super Mamabug*! and *EFmom*! Great Plan!!!
*Contrariety* & co: My mom was the "question authority" type and while I appreciate it in many ways, I must admit that I chafed many teachers and bosses over the years. I was beyond socially awkward! I worry about the balance between free thinker and social misfit. It can be hard to navigate in a culture where the herd mentality rules. Does this make any sense?


----------



## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngeliqueW* 
Yeah! *Super Mamabug*! and *EFmom*! Great Plan!!!
*Contrariety* & co: My mom was the "question authority" type and while I appreciate it in many ways, I must admit that I chafed many teachers and bosses over the years. I was beyond socially awkward! I worry about the balance between free thinker and social misfit. It can be hard to navigate in a culture where the herd mentality rules. Does this make any sense?

Totally makes sense.


----------



## boatrat

Quote:

1) Get them excited about science. We all have a need for awe and wonder in our lives. Teach them about biology, evolution, ecosystems and astronomy. Teach them to wonder at their small place in the universe.

2) Teach them the history and mythology of our species. The great hero stories of Greece and India. Teach them these stories along side biblical ones. Put them in their context. Show genesis along with other creation myths. Show Jesus with Horus, Mithras, and Krishna. They will live in a religious world and I do not want them being ignorant of that.

3) Teach them to question authority, and yes this includes me. This is a big one. It is difficult to buy into religion when you have been taught to question. Most religions do not welcome true questioning. One is expected to believe and have faith. If you are accustomed to questioning everything, it is difficult to 'fall in line' in order to have religion.

4) Be honest about my thoughts on god and how I arrived at them. Answer their questions as they come up. I will not preach atheism, but I won't hide it and I will answer questions fully.

5) Be prepared for the big questions. They will ask them. If you don't provide the answers someone else will.
I couldn't agree with you more. That is exactly how I plan to teach my DS about the big issues/atheism/religion, although I hadn't really taken the time to break it down so succinctly.

I really agree with the part about teaching science. DH and I are both PhD scientists, I really believe that once you understand how life on earth has evolved, there is simply no need for a creation myth. As Richard Dawkins (my hero) said, "Although atheism might have been logically tenable before Darwin, Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist."

I also recommend Parenting Beyond Belief. It was a great read, and I plan to read it again as DS grows up. I especially liked Pen Gillette's essay, and I also enjoy his BS show on Showtime. They have done a couple of great shows on religion.


----------



## Contrariety

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngeliqueW* 
Yeah! *Super Mamabug*! and *EFmom*! Great Plan!!!
*Contrariety* & co: My mom was the "question authority" type and while I appreciate it in many ways, I must admit that I chafed many teachers and bosses over the years. I was beyond socially awkward! I worry about the balance between free thinker and social misfit. It can be hard to navigate in a culture where the herd mentality rules. Does this make any sense?

I don't think that questioning authority necessarily has to lead to social isolation. You can question things and find answers for yourself without ruffling too many feathers. If my kid goes beyond that, sure, it could cause him to be on the social fringe, but so long as he has made that decision for himself... he's made it for himself... which is the goal.

I questioned everything growing up. I still do. Often my findings are embraced, though some have made me feel like I'm a complete outsider. But I'm very comforted to *know* what I know for myself, and not because someone else said so.


----------



## AngeliqueW

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Contrariety* 
I don't think that questioning authority necessarily has to lead to social isolation. You can question things and find answers for yourself without ruffling too many feathers. If my kid goes beyond that, sure, it could cause him to be on the social fringe, but so long as he has made that decision for himself... he's made it for himself... which is the goal.

I questioned everything growing up. I still do. Often my findings are embraced, though some have made me feel like I'm a complete outsider. But I'm very comforted to *know* what I know for myself, and not because someone else said so.

I agree with you.
I think I wasn't graceful or tactful in my questioning of authority...
How do you question in a respectful way? especially when the subject is sensitive? or when you honestly think that the authority figure is a moron?
That's what got me into trouble.


----------



## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Contrariety* 
I don't think that questioning authority necessarily has to lead to social isolation. You can question things and find answers for yourself without ruffling too many feathers. If my kid goes beyond that, sure, it could cause him to be on the social fringe, but so long as he has made that decision for himself... he's made it for himself... which is the goal.

I questioned everything growing up. I still do. Often my findings are embraced, though some have made me feel like I'm a complete outsider. But I'm very comforted to *know* what I know for myself, and not because someone else said so.

I think questioning things is part of human nature- it's part of being curious, or at least that's the category/definition it falls into for me.

Growing up questioning meant that "satan/the devil/evil" was trying to convince me of wrong doing. Especially if I was questioning the very foundation that my parents lived their lives. I spent a lot of time being very afraid of questioning myself, authority and any adults until I got into my teens, and I just went for it.

Constantly having a relationship with the world where you are questioning, and wanting to learn more, in my opinion is healthy. I think you can instill a healthy understanding of questioning into your children, and have it follow them into adulthood, without it being rebellious, or awkward for them.


----------



## Theoretica

Yes to this ^^^^^^

I grew up with the same message. I was taught at home and at church that questioning anything about christianity was the result of satan's influence on my soul.

Ugh.


----------



## hollyvangogh

*Theoretica:*

I love the line in your siggy. DH thinks it's funny too.

Back OT:

How long have you all been atheist?


----------



## pixiekisses

I've been an atheist all my life. Well, as soon as I was big enough to decide and make up my own opinion about it. I've never believed, and always thought that it was a lot of bull whenever I had to attend something at a church (weddings etc.).
My dear is the same way. And our kids seem to be going the same path too.


----------



## 2xy

I'm so tired of having to bite my tongue when people talk about their religious beliefs as though they were facts.

Ever notice that if you talk about your own beliefs in return, they take offense? It gets old. Don't freakin' go there if you don't want to hear anyone else's POV.

/vent


----------



## bella_stranger

I hear you! so frustrating...

my mom is staying with us for a few weeks, and today she was playing "eating" with my daughter. she said a pretend prayer, and said "Amen", and then my daughter repeated it. It was really weird to hear my little innocent girl at 2 yrs old say "Amen"....

anyway, we had a tactful and calm discussion about it, and I asked her if she could maybe not do that. she was fine with it, and we talked a little about my beliefs a bit more. anyway.... that was a rare experience. she expressed how it was a bit weird for her to hear us NOT praying, but she was respectful about it.

how do you all handle the prayer thing? in your home? with guests? at other peoples homes?







:


----------



## pixiekisses

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
I'm so tired of having to bite my tongue when people talk about their religious beliefs as though they were facts.

I don't. I always specify something like "that's what you *believe*" or "we don't believe that, we believe this or that".
I never just listen to it like it's facts.


----------



## beansmama

I've been an atheist for almost a year now...well, no, probably since around last August. Mid-July was when i really started questioning christainity. Well, i've been raised a christian all my life - so it wasn't the FIRST time i questioned it, just the first time in my adult life, and it actually stuck.

I guess having someone mature, smart, and also an ex-religious nut (mormon, lol) helped a lot. Before i met him (now my dh - woot!) the only "not christains" i had ever met were when i was a teen - and they were satanists, wiccans, or just "badasses" hahahaha....ahhhhh.

It took me awhile to feel normal, and i still, yet seldomly, have my moments. BUT i will say this - i have never felt this free. This is the first time in my life i haven't been scared to death of demons out to get me, lurking behind me, watching me...UGH. Isn't it sad, that at 24 years old i actually felt that way? I never want my daughter to feel that!

My parents are (obviously) christains. And my dad likes to try to debate me sometimes...i honestly think it's sad. I love my parents, but hearing them talk about things that are so childish and ridiculous is sad. It makes me feel embarrassed for them a little, although i'm not sure why - since MOST people do believe. It's just hard to see smart people so clearly blinded...

Prayer? My DD still "believes"...she knows i don't and she asks me about it sometimes. She occassionally wants to pray and i say mommy doesn't do that (she'll ask why and i'll tell her) but that SHE can pray if she wants to. I don't want to encourage her (or have anyone else encourage her)...but i'm also not about to tell her she CAN'T pray, if that's what she wants to do.

I'm sure as she gets older she'll grow out of it, once she does her own research, etc.

My parents don't pray around us anymore, really. Although they do talk about God a bit and do pray FOR us (lol).


----------



## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
I'm so tired of having to bite my tongue when people talk about their religious beliefs as though they were facts.

Ever notice that if you talk about your own beliefs in return, they take offense? It gets old. Don't freakin' go there if you don't want to hear anyone else's POV.

/vent

I hear you there. I was out with some girlfriends, and somehow we got onto the topic of religion; I tried to make it a vague unimportant part of the conversation. Most of the girls I hang out with know that I don't want to hear them talk about it, so we keep religion out of our friendship. This new girl was there, so she started badgering me about my religious past.

She wouldn't back down, and I finally had to start throwing heavy doctrine at her (She's a mormon convert). She kept coming at me like I had no idea what she was talking about, and for every point she had that was "good", I came back and told her some FACTUAL about her point. She looked rather shell-shocked, but I didn't want to discuss it, she refused to end the discussion, so I just laid it on.

Most of my friends know that I'm tolerant to a point, meaning, don't bring it up, I won't question you. But they'd never seen me lay into someone like that before. I won't stand for someone trying to tell me I'm wrong when I know, without a doubt that they are wrong.

I left the mormon church when I was 14, went back and forth for years, until I married my first husband, who was mormon. He was abusive, and used the priesthood as an excuse to beat me senseless. I struggled hard with the religion during this time, but somehow managed to make it to the temple with him despite all my issues doctrinally. I went to the temple every day for a month straight because I was told I would "get used to it". The day I finally walked out the temple and out of the church, I almost had a mental breakdown in the room with the prayer circle. Everything felt so wrong, and I promised myself, I'd never go back.

A week later, my husband and I separated. 4 months later we filed for divorce when I found out that he'd been cheating on me for over 8 months. I went to our then bishop to let him know I wanted out, where I told bluntly that if my husband had cheated on me and was beating me, I must be doing something very wrong.

I'm not sure I'm allowed to type the words I said to him that day, but needless to say, I've never been contacted, other then random house visits from the missionaries (though one was not random- someone sent them to us directly- I gave all my mormon friends a piece of my mind about this, and it's not happened again).

My journey to agnosticism/atheism has taken place over the last 5 years. It's interesting because I feel the most confident and secure in my decision and life then I have in years. I think this will be an ongoing journey for me for many years. The first part of my "journey" has been ridding myself of the backward belief system that was pounded into my brain for years. That's been the toughest part so far.


----------



## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bella_stranger* 
I hear you! so frustrating...

my mom is staying with us for a few weeks, and today she was playing "eating" with my daughter. she said a pretend prayer, and said "Amen", and then my daughter repeated it. It was really weird to hear my little innocent girl at 2 yrs old say "Amen"....

anyway, we had a tactful and calm discussion about it, and I asked her if she could maybe not do that. she was fine with it, and we talked a little about my beliefs a bit more. anyway.... that was a rare experience. she expressed how it was a bit weird for her to hear us NOT praying, but she was respectful about it.

how do you all handle the prayer thing? in your home? with guests? at other peoples homes?







:


I don't? If it's not in my home, we don't say anything. I can't force someone to not do something in their own home. If it's at my house, I can do something.

I think it will open up a good line of communication with DS to see it, so we can explain to him why people think prayer is helpful, and what it means to people, and why we don't do it.


----------



## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 
I left the mormon church when I was 14, went back and forth for years, until I married my first husband, who was mormon. He was abusive, and used the priesthood as an excuse to beat me senseless. I struggled hard with the religion during this time, but somehow managed to make it to the temple with him despite all my issues doctrinally. I went to the temple every day for a month straight because I was told I would "get used to it". The day I finally walked out the temple and out of the church, I almost had a mental breakdown in the room with the prayer circle. Everything felt so wrong, and I promised myself, I'd never go back.

A week later, my husband and I separated. 4 months later we filed for divorce when I found out that he'd been cheating on me for over 8 months. I went to our then bishop to let him know I wanted out, where I told bluntly that if my husband had cheated on me and was beating me, I must be doing something very wrong.












Stories like this break my heart. Telling 14 year old boys they have "the priesthood" and therefore the power of god is a recipe for disaster. Obviously not all of them turn out badly, but it's so easy in those circumstances for them to become arrogant, controlling, and even dangerous. And don't even get me started on what they teach the girls about themselves and how they relate to boys.









I'm so glad I got out when I did (about a month after DD was born). I cringe when I think about the damage I almost did to her. And I'm so lucky DH left with me.

Oh, and that bishop is a


----------



## AngeliqueW

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 
I left the mormon church when I was 14, went back and forth for years, until I married my first husband, who was mormon. He was abusive, and used the priesthood as an excuse to beat me senseless. I struggled hard with the religion during this time, but somehow managed to make it to the temple with him despite all my issues doctrinally. I went to the temple every day for a month straight because I was told I would "get used to it". The day I finally walked out the temple and out of the church, I almost had a mental breakdown in the room with the prayer circle. Everything felt so wrong, and I promised myself, I'd never go back.

A week later, my husband and I separated. 4 months later we filed for divorce when I found out that he'd been cheating on me for over 8 months. I went to our then bishop to let him know I wanted out, where I told bluntly that if my husband had cheated on me and was beating me, I must be doing something very wrong.

I'm not sure I'm allowed to type the words I said to him that day, but needless to say, I've never been contacted, other then random house visits from the missionaries (though one was not random- someone sent them to us directly- I gave all my mormon friends a piece of my mind about this, and it's not happened again).

My journey to agnosticism/atheism has taken place over the last 5 years. It's interesting because I feel the most confident and secure in my decision and life then I have in years. I think this will be an ongoing journey for me for many years. The first part of my "journey" has been ridding myself of the backward belief system that was pounded into my brain for years. That's been the toughest part so far.

The story of how a powerful intelligent woman overcame







and transformed herself and her life.
I'm sorry you had to experience all of this and proud of you for getting out.


----------



## AuntieLiz

*teale*








your story is heartbreaking but all too common in Post-Mormon circles. It feels like I hear a new story like yours every day.









Can't say here what I wish I could say, just...









Life is _so much better_ for me since I left religion. (DH too!) We're still figuring out how to work this with our families; we each have relatives in varying degrees of religious devotion to that church (although I've discovered in the last few months that we are not alone). Some of our family members know we have left it (or at the very least "taken a break"), but if they knew we'd become full-blown atheists... I shudder to think. I don't think I'll even be able to fully resign until after my parents die. The fallout would be _severe._

I think we all know what it says about a religious organization when you CANNOT LEAVE IT without suffering dire and painful consequences.

(I'm really trying to bite my tongue here, but probably not succeeding.)


----------



## ~PurityLake~

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hollyvangogh* 

How long have you all been atheist?

I do not identify myself as atheist. I identify myself as agnostic.

As a young child in sunday school (aged 4-6) I didn't question. At least I don't remember doing so. When I had my first communion, and the months leading up to it, when I was 11 I had lots of doubt and questions and no faith. But I went through with the process because I was supposed to and good little girls do what they're told







:. When I went to churches throughout middle school and high school, while my mom searched for a church that fit her needs, I teetered on the edge of being an atheist and wishing I wasn't so I could fit in. This was a time when I really struggled with my spirituality. After an experience with a fundamentalist southern baptist church in California, when I was 19, I became a confirmed agnostic, but still wasn't and am not comfortable saying 'I know there is nothing'. Because I don't know. I've been unable to believe unquestioningly for 25 years now. I've had no faith for 15 years.


----------



## 2xy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
I became a confirmed agnostic, but still wasn't and am not comfortable saying 'I know there is nothing'. Because I don't know.

I guess it all depends on how you define atheism.

I am a strong atheist. I don't believe that "there is nothing." I believe that everything is natural, rather than supernatural.

The literal definition of an atheist is someone who believes that gods don't exist. That's me.

One can be an atheist and also be agnostic. An agnostic acknowledges that it's impossible to know, either way. _Knowledge_ and _belief_ are two different things. If you *knew*, you wouldn't need to *believe*. Truth doesn't require faith.


----------



## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
I guess it all depends on how you define atheism.

I am a strong atheist. I don't believe that "there is nothing." I believe that everything is natural, rather than supernatural.

The literal definition of an atheist is someone who believes that gods don't exist. That's me.

One can be an atheist and also be agnostic. An agnostic acknowledges that it's impossible to know, either way. _Knowledge_ and _belief_ are two different things. If you *knew*, you wouldn't need to *believe*. Truth doesn't require faith.

I was going to say that, but was feeling lazy and hoping someone else would. So thanks!


----------



## ~PurityLake~

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
I guess it all depends on how you define atheism.

I am a strong atheist. I don't believe that "there is nothing." I believe that everything is natural, rather than supernatural.

The literal definition of an atheist is someone who believes that gods don't exist. That's me.

One can be an atheist and also be agnostic. An agnostic acknowledges that it's impossible to know, either way. _Knowledge_ and _belief_ are two different things. If you *knew*, you wouldn't need to *believe*. Truth doesn't require faith.

I suppose I wasn't all that clear in my post. I know the definition of atheism and agnosticism, as I've researched quite a bit on this topic. When I wrote... 'there is nothing'... I was abridging my thoughts. Nothing, no gods/goddesses/etc. I do not believe there are, but I don't know there are or are not. There are those that believe in something (god/goddess/etc.) There are those that believe there is nothing (god/goddess).

This is why I identify as agnostic. Because I acknowledge (using your words) that it is impossible to know either way. That's all I was saying. You simply worded it better than I.


----------



## Contrariety

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hollyvangogh* 
*Theoretica:*
How long have you all been atheist?

I can't truthfully say that I ever actually believed in god. I can say that I knew for certain that I did *not* by the time I was about 13 or 14. So... 13 years? I was in the god closet for a long time, though. Only my close friends knew at first, eventually I became more open about it. I still don't talk frankly about it with my family. If having their delusions helps them sleep better at night, so be it... so long as they leave me alone, I don't care what hopes they have for me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bella_stranger* 

how do you all handle the prayer thing? in your home? with guests? at other peoples homes?







:

In my home, no one prays.

In the homes of my relatives, I stand quietly and respectfully. I do not bow my head, close my eyes, or fold my arms. It is not my prayer, not my god. It's tricky to teach DS to be quiet, though.

One time DH's fam was having some big spiritual to-do and asked the entire family to kneel and pray together. I didn't say a word, but I also didn't pretend for one second that I was going to pray with them. DH did, which cheesed me off, leaving me so vulnerable and lonely.


----------



## pixiekisses

In my home, no one prays. Or, if they do, it's inside them unnoticeable.
And I don't have relatives or friends who pray before dinner etc. either, so it's never a problem. If someone wanted to pray in their home and I was there I would just stand quietly and tell the kids to be quiet too while they did it, I would not fold my hands, close my eyes, bow my head, kneel or anything else, or tell my kids too.


----------



## boatrat

I've been a self-described atheist for about the past four years, since reading books by Richard Dawkins and watching his documentary "The Root of All Evil." Prior to that, I was a self-described agnostic, but his work provoked me to really take a hard look at my beliefs.

I was raised in the deeeeeep south, and I attended church as a child. My father didn't and was an agnostic, although he rarely discussed his beliefs. I remember throughout my childhood being fearful that my dad (who I loved more than anything or anyone) was going to die and go to hell. I would actually wake up at night crying over this fear. Fortunately, at least by the time I was 15 or 16 I no longer believed in a jealous, vengeful god, or any kind of god.


----------



## 2xy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
When I wrote... 'there is nothing'... I was abridging my thoughts. Nothing, no gods/goddesses/etc. I do not believe there are, but I don't know there are or are not. There are those that believe in something (god/goddess/etc.) There are those that believe there is nothing (god/goddess).

This is why I identify as agnostic. Because I acknowledge (using your words) that it is impossible to know either way. That's all I was saying. You simply worded it better than I.

If you do not believe gods exist, then you _are_, by definition, an atheist.

One can be an agnostic and an atheist at the same time. But however you choose to label yourself is your own choice, of course.


----------



## 2xy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiekisses* 
I don't. I always specify something like "that's what you *believe*" or "we don't believe that, we believe this or that".
I never just listen to it like it's facts.

Well, in _some_ situations that's just not feasible.

And on some forums.


----------



## teale

Thanks ladies for the kind words. I used to feel rather beat up over my history with religion, but now I've let it be the motivating factor in learning more. I never want to be tangled in that sort of web again, and I always want my children to understand that they deserve the ability to have the freedom to be a thinker and always be curious.

I've heard a few more stories like mine, some worse since leaving the church. What I find the most appalling is the relationship that occurs with family after one leaves the church. I didn't speak to my parents for over a year because they refused to stop with the mud slinging, so to speak. I know I'm lucky because most family relationships don't come back from that...

Quote:

Truth doesn't require faith.
Aaaamazing.







:


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## beansmama

So...i just got my "raising freethinkers" book yesterday (and parenting beyond belief - but i'm starting with the "raising" one...) and I'm LOVING it! Really...it's great! I can't wait until DH gets home so he can start reading them too. I'm on chapter 3 and am already getting so many ideas on how to promote free thought in my 5yo and son (once he is born...and then, you know, old enough, lol).

Anyway - i highly recommend this book


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## frontierpsych

I suppose I identify as agnostic. I don't hold any specific beliefs on the subject, because all I know is that I DON'T KNOW and I'm okay with that. We all die sometime, and if there is an afterlife, I'll know then. If not, I'll be too dead to care. I certainly do not believe that we have to believe some certain thing or profess our faith in some way to get to heaven or whatever equivalent if it exists. That is just a theory that seems wrong to me on many levels. I live my life by my own basic morality and believe that we have a sense of right and wrong for a reason, and no book of rules could be truer than what is in your heart.


----------



## ~PurityLake~

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frontierpsych* 
I suppose I identify as agnostic. I don't hold any specific beliefs on the subject, because all I know is that I DON'T KNOW and I'm okay with that. We all die sometime, and if there is an afterlife, I'll know then. If not, I'll be too dead to care. I certainly do not believe that we have to believe some certain thing or profess our faith in some way to get to heaven or whatever equivalent if it exists. That is just a theory that seems wrong to me on many levels. I live my life by my own basic morality and believe that we have a sense of right and wrong for a reason, and no book of rules could be truer than what is in your heart.


----------



## DoingDoing:Julie

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 
I hear you there. I was out with some girlfriends, and somehow we got onto the topic of religion; I tried to make it a vague unimportant part of the conversation. Most of the girls I hang out with know that I don't want to hear them talk about it, so we keep religion out of our friendship. This new girl was there, so she started badgering me about my religious past.

She wouldn't back down, and I finally had to start throwing heavy doctrine at her (She's a mormon convert). She kept coming at me like I had no idea what she was talking about, and for every point she had that was "good", I came back and told her some FACTUAL about her point. She looked rather shell-shocked, but I didn't want to discuss it, she refused to end the discussion, so I just laid it on.

Most of my friends know that I'm tolerant to a point, meaning, don't bring it up, I won't question you. But they'd never seen me lay into someone like that before. I won't stand for someone trying to tell me I'm wrong when I know, without a doubt that they are wrong.

My journey to agnosticism/atheism has taken place over the last 5 years. It's interesting because I feel the most confident and secure in my decision and life then I have in years. I think this will be an ongoing journey for me for many years. The first part of my "journey" has been ridding myself of the backward belief system that was pounded into my brain for years. That's been the toughest part so far.

My heart literally STOPPED to read this. This is my first visit to the agnostic/athiest forum. I've only recently been able to call myself this, and it has been along road for me from Mormonism to "agnosticism". 2 1/2 years ago I moved from vt to ut, and questioned the church for the first time. (I knew you were talking about mormonism when you said "the church") Everything you said up above is like words out of my brain and out of my mouth. My heart is lieterally THROBBING to know that someone else has had these feelings, these questions, these concerns. That it took so long to question it because 1) god secretly has all the answers and doesn't need you to know 2) if you question it than Satan has his hold on you. And now that I've left I have to deal with my family, who doesn't understand and views me like a fallen star, and friends and co-workers who challenge me whenever they can, telling me I need to pray and seak answers, that they don't understand why someone would believe something their whole lives then suddenly not, and bears their testimonys to me every chance they get. And through all of this I have no voice. My sister will casually mention her beliefs, but once i mention hers she clams up. My co-worker will blah blah blah about her beleifs in christ and the plan of salvation, and the minute I say I don't believe in christ she knits her eyebrows, crosses her arms, and says, "why?" How do I learn to stand up for myself. At what point do I stand up formyself without shaking with rage, and feeling/looking stupid, spluttering over my own scentences? And because of this I feel defensive, and angry! How is it you were able to fight back, and defend yourself so sensibly?


----------



## 2xy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DoingDoing:Julie* 
My co-worker will blah blah blah about her beleifs in christ and the plan of salvation, and the minute I say I don't believe in christ she knits her eyebrows, crosses her arms, and says, "why?"

Easy answer:

"I don't believe in things for which there are no evidence."

Then, if you like, ask her to explain _why_ *she* believes what she does, and why you should believe the same.

People who want to tell you about their beliefs almost never want to hear about yours.


----------



## hollyvangogh

*DoingDoing:Julie
*
Have you ever been to a forum for recovering from Mormonism? Sounds like you could benefit from hearing from people who have been through what you have been through.


----------



## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hollyvangogh* 
*DoingDoing:Julie
*
Have you ever been to a forum for recovering from Mormonism? Sounds like you could benefit from hearing from people who have been through what you have been through.

I agree. I joined a couple of communities through my blog, and did some google searches. I found that some of the info out there was a little hardcore, and exaggerated, but I did find some people who had some genuine stories that resonated with me.

I also knew a couple of people who left the church, so it's been nice to have that sort of support. Julie, if you do need to talk, definitely PM me. I'd love to share my journey with you, and help you through this leg of the process. It's tough to rid yourself of everything that can be associated with mormonism.


----------



## teale

Quote:

I don't believe in things for which there are no evidence."
Sorry for the double post, but I actually said this the other day to someone. I was saying how I'm generally reserved when it comes to displaying my views as long as the company I'm in respects me the same. I don't question them, they don't question me. The minute I get the "Why" question, I shake my head, and say, "Do you really want me to answer or do want to take that back?"

This time I said something like,

"Can you prove to me that there is a god? Can you give me physical evidence, other then your "feelings" because my "feelings" tell me he's not real, and that anyone who believes in him is believing in an adult version of a fairy tale."

The look on her face was priceless, and she said, "That actually makes perfect sense", and I laughed and said, "Yeah, it does. Which is why I am atheist."

It's hard though with people who aren't receptive, because they usually want to fight, and they generally want to win.


----------



## AuntieLiz

*DoingDoing:Julie*

There are a lot of us post-Mormons/ex-Mormons/former-Mormons/disaffected-Mormons/recovering-Mormons (take your pick) in this tribe, and there are some very supportive online and even local community groups that can help you through this. PM me if you want details. I've been there and I know how tough it is, and DH and I have made some good friends and have grown leaps and bounds through the process of leaving the LDS church, all thanks to a nice group that we found. It's very hard to explain how deep that wound is to someone who's never been Mormon, and at the risk of sounding cliche, it was like a light shining down from the heavens when we stumbled upon the right group of like-minded, supportive people. Everyone has their own journey, and you don't have to go it alone.







Hang in there.


----------



## beansmama

I don't really know how to respond to my dad bringing up past "experiences" i had.

I was definitely one of those christians who believed demons and spirits were lurking everywhere...watching me, trying to deceive me, etc. I could "feel" them...even thought i saw them (hard to explain, but pretty much in my head - like i would feel a presence -aka get a creepy feeling- and "see" it in my *mind*. He keeps bringing this up. He asks me how i can disbelieve in all things supernatural when he knows i've had experiences.

What the hell do i say?

I don't think i was every "crazy"...i just think the mind is a powerful thing, and due to the fact i was raised believing in all things creepy (and fake), i grew up being OBSESSED with them...thinking something is real can often times make it real for YOU, kwim?

I don't know...am i making sense? Any tips on how to deal with these questions?


----------



## AuntieLiz

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beansmama* 
i just think the mind is a powerful thing, and due to the fact i was raised believing in all things creepy (and fake), i grew up being OBSESSED with them...thinking something is real can often times make it real for YOU, kwim?

I think you answered your own question, because this would be a great response.







Just tell him how you feel about it and that your understanding of those things has changed.

I've had similar experiences, and one of the hardest parts of recovering from my belief system was shaking this conviction that those things were "real."


----------



## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beansmama* 
I don't really know how to respond to my dad bringing up past "experiences" i had.

I was definitely one of those christians who believed demons and spirits were lurking everywhere...watching me, trying to deceive me, etc. I could "feel" them...even thought i saw them (hard to explain, but pretty much in my head - like i would feel a presence -aka get a creepy feeling- and "see" it in my *mind*. He keeps bringing this up. He asks me how i can disbelieve in all things supernatural when he knows i've had experiences.

What the hell do i say?

I don't think i was every "crazy"...i just think the mind is a powerful thing, and due to the fact i was raised believing in all things creepy (and fake), i grew up being OBSESSED with them...thinking something is real can often times make it real for YOU, kwim?

I don't know...am i making sense? Any tips on how to deal with these questions?

Anyone who knows the brain, will also tell you that you can make it see what you want it to see. I think when you have something beaten into you, it's hard to see anything other then what you think you should be seeing.

Anyone who has left a deeply organized religion can tell you that it takes years to dig out the roots it leaves within you.


----------



## NoliMum

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beansmama* 
I don't really know how to respond to my dad bringing up past "experiences" i had.

I was definitely one of those christians who believed demons and spirits were lurking everywhere...watching me, trying to deceive me, etc. I could "feel" them...even thought i saw them (hard to explain, but pretty much in my head - like i would feel a presence -aka get a creepy feeling- and "see" it in my *mind*. He keeps bringing this up. He asks me how i can disbelieve in all things supernatural when he knows i've had experiences.

What the hell do i say?

I don't think i was every "crazy"...i just think the mind is a powerful thing, and due to the fact i was raised believing in all things creepy (and fake), i grew up being OBSESSED with them...thinking something is real can often times make it real for YOU, kwim?

I don't know...am i making sense? Any tips on how to deal with these questions?

I just stumbled upon this tribe and wanted to chime in. I am an ex-fundamentalist youth churchgoer, and I had a hard time with the, "were my experiences real?" question. I am talking about speaking in tongues, feeling knocked out by "the movement of the spirit," hopping up and down with "joy for the Lord," etc.

Ultimately it came down to self-examination and really coming to terms with the fact that it was all in my head; that I'd convinced myself to feel and experience those things because if I didn't, I wouldn't be completely faithful, and I would be holding a part of myself back from God-- and therefore not fully cleansed of sin. I think they hold this ultimatum over you: Believe, or convince yourself that you believe, or else: rot in hell for eternity. Not much choice there.

I am so glad I got out of that terrible relationship with the church. It was like emotional abuse.


----------



## hollyvangogh

First, go to this link. Then highlight and read the rest of my post.

teale said: "I think when you have something beaten into you, it's hard to see anything other then what you think you should be seeing."

It's called "confirmation bias." When you're told what to look for, what to pay attention to and what to see that is exactly what you _will_ see. And it is amazing what the brain will not notice. But it's normal. It's human. And we shouldn't be too hard on ourselves for it. wiki entry more info


----------



## super mamabug

I think the trick to experiences is why did you experience that and not me? I went to church regularly and I was never moved to speak in tongues or jump up and down. I did have 'visions' of Swami Sri Yukteswar! Did you? I saw the spiritual eye when meditating? Did you? Others have 'seen' the black pearl, or had fits etc. Muslims don't 'see' Jesus in toast. We see what we want to see/have been conditioned to see. I would be much more convinced if these experiences were universal, but they're not. They vary depending on the cultural expectations of the person.


----------



## beansmama

Thank you all so much for the responses (and video...that was crazy...).

I guess i had the answer all along...if you believe anything strongly enough, you can see/feel it. The mind is a powerful thing. Unfortunetly, my dad isn't going to accept that - but he doesn't have to. If he brings it up again I'm just going to tell him exactly why i feel i had those experiences and that I really don't want to talk about it again. Hopefully it'll end at that.

Although, it's doubtful. He knows i'm not christian, and don't believe in God/Jesus...but he keeps bringing up SPIRITS - angels, demons, spirits in general. Stating our world is a spiritual world like it is some kind of FACT that everyone accepts. When i told him I don't believe in spirits of any kind (i assumed he KNEW that...) it totally blew his mind. He was just so taken aback, like, how could someone NOT believe in spirits running amuck everywhere?

I think it's sad...

It seems like such a silly thing for an adult to be concerned with. But, nothing i can do about it, so anyway...


----------



## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beansmama* 
Thank you all so much for the responses (and video...that was crazy...).

I guess i had the answer all along...if you believe anything strongly enough, you can see/feel it. The mind is a powerful thing. Unfortunetly, my dad isn't going to accept that - but he doesn't have to. If he brings it up again I'm just going to tell him exactly why i feel i had those experiences and that I really don't want to talk about it again. Hopefully it'll end at that.

Although, it's doubtful. He knows i'm not christian, and don't believe in God/Jesus...but he keeps bringing up SPIRITS - angels, demons, spirits in general. Stating our world is a spiritual world like it is some kind of FACT that everyone accepts. When i told him I don't believe in spirits of any kind (i assumed he KNEW that...) it totally blew his mind. He was just so taken aback, like, how could someone NOT believe in spirits running amuck everywhere?

I think it's sad...

It seems like such a silly thing for an adult to be concerned with. But, nothing i can do about it, so anyway...

My FIL said something similar to me, and I just smiled, and rolled my eyes. This world can absolutely exist without the idea of spirits or presences, or whatever. And it does, everyday.


----------



## teale

Bumpity BUMP!

We're getting lost all the way on page two!









How is everyone?

Religion has been a huge topic of discussion lately around these parts, but it's been nice to educate people about agnosticism and atheism.


----------



## NoliMum

I'd like to know what you do when you encounter a child who is being raised with the typical Christian teaching, and talks about it around your child.

I babysit this little girl who is so sweet, but every now and then, she will pray before a meal (God is good, God is great...), or speak the propaganda that is taught to young children, "Jesus loves me!" or "God knows when you're lying." Yikes!!!!! I don't want my kiddo picking that up but I also don't want to freak this little girl out (and possibly lose my job) by telling her to keep her beliefs to herself.

Advice?


----------



## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 
How is everyone?

Great! DH and I went to an ex-Mormon mini-conference a little bit ago. (The talks can be found online here and here). We got to meet a bunch of great people including Lyndon Lamborn. And this weekend we're getting a visit from the one convert DH got on his mission who has also left the church. DH keeps having stressful dreams about leaving, but I think he's moving on and healing.

As for other aspects of our life, we are doing well! I finally got landed immigrant status so now I'll be able to take DD to visit her Grandma for the first time!







: Just need to get her and her daddy passports!

*NoliMum*: Yikes! No advice unfortunately. What a situation to be in!


----------



## AuntieLiz

*hollyvangogh*, sounds like fun! I can't look at youtube from my office but I do know that Lyndon Lamborn is a fun speaker; DH and I watched his "Lying for the Lord" presentation on youtube a few months back and really enjoyed it. DH and I would love to attend an exmo conference, but we're expecting our baby right around the time of the next local one so we'll have to catch up with whatever we find online in the meantime.
And congrats on your DD's first visit with Grandma! How fun!!! I hope you all have a safe trip.









*NoliMum*, I wish I had some advice for you. Sounds like a rough situation to be in. Perhaps talking to your own child about this little girl's words and helping him to understand why she says those things and how to respond respectfully and appropriately might be a good place to start. I don't know how old your LO is or how this girl's behavior might be influencing him but IMO, she isn't doing any harm, just living the way she was taught, and your child will live the way you teach him to in return, so opening that dialogue and using it as a teaching/learning experience may be in order. Sorry if that's not helpful; I hope some other mamas here have more advice. hang in there.


----------



## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hollyvangogh* 
Great! DH and I went to an ex-Mormon mini-conference a little bit ago. (The talks can be found online here and here). We got to meet a bunch of great people including Lyndon Lamborn. And this weekend we're getting a visit from the one convert DH got on his mission who has also left the church. DH keeps having stressful dreams about leaving, but I think he's moving on and healing.

As for other aspects of our life, we are doing well! I finally got landed immigrant status so now I'll be able to take DD to visit her Grandma for the first time!







: Just need to get her and her daddy passports!

*NoliMum*: Yikes! No advice unfortunately. What a situation to be in!


Holly, thanks for posting those! I can't wait to have a look at them later.

I used to have pretty scary dreams about leaving the church too. It definitely takes some years to get to that "normal" feeling of being okay.

Noli, no advice! Could you talk to her mom and ask her if she could talk to her kid? Just a simple, "we respect your beliefs, but we don't share the same beliefs, so what do you suggest we do to make sure we are all happy?" It might open up a great opportunity for discussion.


----------



## Theoretica

Has anyone tried meetup.com to find a local atheist group? We did...it's a small group but it was really fun! There's a picnic this Sunday, we're looking forward to it!

Noli...I deal with that too, although not job related. It's frustrating. We all know how upset their families would get if our kiddo 'imposed' our thoughts onto them, but it's ok in reverse for their kid to do it. Ugh.


----------



## beansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoliMum* 
I'd like to know what you do when you encounter a child who is being raised with the typical Christian teaching, and talks about it around your child.

I babysit this little girl who is so sweet, but every now and then, she will pray before a meal (God is good, God is great...), or speak the propaganda that is taught to young children, "Jesus loves me!" or "God knows when you're lying." Yikes!!!!! I don't want my kiddo picking that up but I also don't want to freak this little girl out (and possibly lose my job) by telling her to keep her beliefs to herself.

Advice?

No advice at all...although, this worries me because I raised DD(5yo) christian and was a christian myself up until about a year ago. I am now an atheist, married to an atheist, and pregnant. We'd like to find other atheist friends, but i don't want them thinking poorly of my daughter if she occasionally says something...which isn't very often at ALL, as i haven't been egging it on for a L-O-N-G time now, but she still mentions she believes every so often...

I'm not sure what to do about that either, other than teach her about other religions and be honest about my OWN beliefs, without bursting her bubble.


----------



## EFmom

Re the other children praying around your child, etc., for the most part, I'd just not make a big deal out of it when it happens. Afterward, when it was just family, I'd explain to my child that people have differing beliefs.

My kids are sort of being raised UU. My 8 yo is a hard core atheist. I overheard her playing with a little Christian friend who was trying to tell her about god. Dd just said, "Whatever! I don't think god is real. Do you want to play monopoly now?"

The same dd came to me all jealous because her friends were having First Communion parties and she wasn't. When I explained what First Communion was all about, she was pretty horrified, and all of the sudden that foofy white princess dress wasn't so appealing.


----------



## teale

Quote:

Has anyone tried meetup.com to find a local atheist group? We did...it's a small group but it was really fun! There's a picnic this Sunday, we're looking forward to it!
No, I haven't. I'm going to check Facebook and Meetup, but since we live in a very active Bible Belt, I'm not sure we'll have much luck. It's worth a gander though, as I was also sure there was no other APing Families in the area.


----------



## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 
No, I haven't. I'm going to check Facebook and Meetup, but since we live in a very active Bible Belt, I'm not sure we'll have much luck. It's worth a gander though, as I was also sure there was no other APing Families in the area.

Where in Alberta are you?


----------



## teale

Southern Alberta.

I checked the Meetup board here, and there was a Freethinkers group, and a Christian group. I don't think Meetup is as popular down here as it is in other areas.

Yahoo Groups is apparently another good way to branch out. I'm new to that as well.


----------



## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 
Southern Alberta.

I checked the Meetup board here, and there was a Freethinkers group, and a Christian group. I don't think Meetup is as popular down here as it is in other areas.

Yahoo Groups is apparently another good way to branch out. I'm new to that as well.

Well, you can come meet up with me! We can start out own atheist group.







I think there *might* be an exmo group in Lethbridge. But I've heard the Calgary exmos don't gather like the Edmonton ones do.


----------



## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hollyvangogh* 
Well, you can come meet up with me! We can start out own atheist group.







I think there *might* be an exmo group in Lethbridge. But I've heard the Calgary exmos don't gather like the Edmonton ones do.


Are you in the area?! I'm definitely up for starting a group like that, I'm sure we'd find some interest in the area. I've done some searches, and nothing comes up for this area







I know there is a UU that meets, but the idea of a structured, church-like setting doesn't settle well with me.


----------



## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 
Are you in the area?! I'm definitely up for starting a group like that, I'm sure we'd find some interest in the area. I've done some searches, and nothing comes up for this area







I know there is a UU that meets, but the idea of a structured, church-like setting doesn't settle well with me.

I'm in the Hat.


----------



## greenrene

I just joined this board and am glad to see this thread! I am an agnostic who grew up in a church that is very cult-like. Anyone here heard of the Church of Christ?

Anyway, long story short, I left that church in my early 20's. Shortly thereafter I left Christianity altogether. I have deep emotional scars from both my church upbringing and growing up with a mentally ill mother. I am determined to break the cycle with my own kids.

Nice to meet all of you!


----------



## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greenrene* 
I just joined this board and am glad to see this thread! I am an agnostic who grew up in a church that is very cult-like. Anyone here heard of the Church of Christ?

Welcome! I'm sure you'll fit right in!

I'd like to recommend a book for all us mamas who have left harmful churches: Standing For Something More by Lyndon Lamborn

It's by a Mormon and about Mormonism...sort of. But really it's about destructive mind control. DH and I are REALLY enjoying it so far. We got to meet the author (like I mentioned). I've also been told that Steven Hassan's book Releasing the Bonds: Encouraging People to Think for Themselves is invaluable to people leaving cults and cult-like religions. It's on my list of books to read.


----------



## teale

Quote:

quote removed by admin
Hee, that made me giggle.

Holly, I know the recommendations were for greenrene, but I'm going to have to find that book.

Welcome Green!


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## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 
Hee, that made me giggle.

Holly, I know the recommendations were for greenrene, but I'm going to have to find that book.

Welcome Green!

They were for everybody!


----------



## teale

I'm adding them to my list of books to find. Do you order yours off Amazon? The Chapters here lacks any "controversial" books. I can order them in, but it generally costs a pretty penny.


----------



## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 
I'm adding them to my list of books to find. Do you order yours off Amazon? The Chapters here lacks any "controversial" books. I can order them in, but it generally costs a pretty penny.

Well, Lyndon gave us a copy of his book when we met him. But I'm pretty sure it's on Amazon. The library might have the other book.


----------



## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hollyvangogh* 
Well, Lyndon gave us a copy of his book when we met him. But I'm pretty sure it's on Amazon. The library might have the other book.

Does he do those seminars often? I went to his website and couldn't find any links about it, or so forth. I'd love to finally attend one.

I stayed up way too late reading a lot of info, and links from his website. I took a break a few years ago from reading anything about the church. I found I was still too angry, and too wounded from the whole situation. Now I felt empowered and excited to be reading something that FINALLY answered questions I've had for a very long time.

I definitely need to find a way to network out into the community here with other ex-mormons. There's a high percentage of practicing, but I'm sure there are some that are not practicing anymore.


----------



## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 
Does he do those seminars often? I went to his website and couldn't find any links about it, or so forth. I'd love to finally attend one.

.

I'm not sure. I know he's done at least one other because it's on YouTube. There's talk of getting Richard Packham to speak next year. He'd definitely be worth a drive up to Edmonton.


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## misswerewolf

This might be a fun and informative read for you ladies.


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## AngeliqueW

Have you all seen this?


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## hollyvangogh

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngeliqueW* 
Have you all seen this?





I started watching that movie a while ago but couldn't finish. It seemed off some how.

Wikipedia says

Quote:

The February 25, 2009 edition of eSkeptic,[21] the online newsletter of The Skeptics Society, criticizes the first part of the film (the one on Christianity) by saying:

"Perhaps the worst aspect of [...] Part I of Peter Joseph's Internet film, Zeitgeist, is that some of what it asserts is true. Unfortunately, this material is liberally - and sloppily - mixed with material that is only partially true and much that is plainly and simply bogus. [...] Zeitgeist is The Da Vinci Code on steroids."


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## Theoretica

That's a great video Angelique...thanks for sharing!


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## AngeliqueW

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hollyvangogh* 
I started watching that movie a while ago but couldn't finish. It seemed off some how.

Wikipedia says

I wonder which parts aren't true...?
Guess I'll have to do do some investigating.
Leave it to the atheists to debunk the debunkers!


----------



## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngeliqueW* 
I wonder which parts aren't true...?
Guess I'll have to do do some investigating.
Leave it to the atheists to debunk the debunkers!









The problem I started to have when I was reading/watching/researching religion is that sometimes the author or producer can be slightly jaded. It's tough to find legit imformation out there that isn't tinged with some sort of anger, or laced with other intents.

I try to read everything with a grain of salt, take what I do know and see what meshes together. Generally, you can pick out the fake stories from the genuine, but it's tough.


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## cathy17

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greenrene* 
I just joined this board and am glad to see this thread!

Nice to meet all of you!

Same Here


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## Ell-Bell

No time to post now, but wanted to join. Hi!


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## AuntieLiz

Welcome *greenrene*, *cathy17* and *Ell-Bell*!


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## mrs joe bubby

I would like to join as well.







Hopefully will have more time to post tonight


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## spruce

I love the book suggestion!

I know I've posted about my best friend before, who is VERY religious, but also very cool. Her husband is a bishop in a church mentioned here a lot.

Anyway, I have her kids over regularly, almost always for long sleepovers. When they come over, the "littles" (10 and below) sleep all together in the living room...so I was trying to be a good host and remind the visiting kids to say their prayers, and my son blurts out, "I don't want to be quiet for this part, I don't even believe in god!"

While I agree with the sentiment...well, wow. He's pretty vocal about his beliefs, and I felt pretty bad. I mean, they were our guests. OTOH, he's 8.

I haven't heard the story back from the mom, but I'm wondering if I should bring it up?

love, penelope


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## jspring0308

My 6 yo has done similar things as above poster's 8 yo and my problem is why do/should I feel bad? If one doesn't believe in god and praying and all the broohaha that goes along w/religion I shouldn't feel guilty or bad about not participating and neither should my children. She can be respectful but why should she have to be quiet when others are praying? Why should I have to explain why we don't do all the religious stuff anymore then those who do? Which of course they don't and are shocked when they realize we don't attend church and then start prying into all the other details. I am not embarrassed by our lack of religion and yet I find myself apologizing about it.

Penelope, I definitely would not bring the issue up w/mom. It probably wasn't that big of deal w/the kids and even if they mentioned it to their parents it was probably taken fairly lightly as it came from your child and you all seem to have a fair amount of respect for each other despite the different beliefs.


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## teale

Yay for new people! I love seeing this group grow!

I've been very busy this week- from moving, to now spontaneously organizing a Doula workshop, to working, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

I hope this summer starts to slow down soon!


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## NoliMum

It looks like just what I was afraid of happened:

The other day, the girl I babysit was playing picnic with my DD. I looked up and she was showing her how to pray. My innocent little DD was sitting silently, eyes closed, hands together under her chin! "God is great, God is good..."

I was shocked but didn't say anything because I wanted to see how she'd handle it. She seemed confused, and just went along with it like her friend was reciting a nursery rhyme.

My response was to say my own "prayer" over our lunch. I lit candles and thanked the things involved with making our food: the sun and water for helping the grass grow, the grass for feeding the cows, and the cows for making the milk for our yogurt. My DD was delighted (because it makes _sense_!) and the other girl looked totally bewildered.


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## ~PurityLake~

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoliMum* 

My response was to say my own "prayer" over our lunch. I lit candles and thanked the things involved with making our food: the sun and water for helping the grass grow, the grass for feeding the cows, and the cows for making the milk for our yogurt. My DD was delighted (because it makes _sense_!) and the other girl looked totally bewildered.









I love it! laughup


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## bella_stranger

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoliMum* 
It looks like just what I was afraid of happened:

The other day, the girl I babysit was playing picnic with my DD. I looked up and she was showing her how to pray. My innocent little DD was sitting silently, eyes closed, hands together under her chin! "God is great, God is good..."

I was shocked but didn't say anything because I wanted to see how she'd handle it. She seemed confused, and just went along with it like her friend was reciting a nursery rhyme.

My response was to say my own "prayer" over our lunch. I lit candles and thanked the things involved with making our food: the sun and water for helping the grass grow, the grass for feeding the cows, and the cows for making the milk for our yogurt. My DD was delighted (because it makes _sense_!) and the other girl looked totally bewildered.









awesome way to handle the situation, and what a sweet prayer, actually. If only they were all that elegant in their honesty and simplicity!


----------



## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoliMum* 
It looks like just what I was afraid of happened:

The other day, the girl I babysit was playing picnic with my DD. I looked up and she was showing her how to pray. My innocent little DD was sitting silently, eyes closed, hands together under her chin! "God is great, God is good..."

I was shocked but didn't say anything because I wanted to see how she'd handle it. She seemed confused, and just went along with it like her friend was reciting a nursery rhyme.

My response was to say my own "prayer" over our lunch. I lit candles and thanked the things involved with making our food: the sun and water for helping the grass grow, the grass for feeding the cows, and the cows for making the milk for our yogurt. My DD was delighted (because it makes _sense_!) and the other girl looked totally bewildered.










What a good way to handle it. I'm not sure what I would have done...


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## AutumnAir

"Parenting Beyond Belief: On Raising Ethical, Caring Kids Without Religion"

I showed this to DH the other day - it's on my wishlist on amazon, and to my surprise he was really offended. To him, the sub-title implies that it's difficult or surprising to be able to raise ethical, caring kids without religion. Basically, to him, the title of the book is simply pandering to and feeding into the belief that the religious of the world have (or feel they have) a monopoly on morality.

Thoughts?


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## super mamabug

Well what if you flipped it? What if the title read, Parenting Within Belief: On Raising Ethical, Caring Kids Through Religion instead? Would that imply that raising a child with ethics within a religion is difficult? I think not.
The book is not necessarily geared towards athiests. It is geared towards anyone that wants to raise children to think for themselves, including deists, agnostics or those that haven't given up god. Sadly to most Americans it is an assumption that one cannot have ethics and morality without religion.
This book is not a how to manual, it is a collection of essays written by people brought up athiest, people raising their children without religion, and even two by ministers. It's focus is on helping children think for themselves whether your family is religious or not. Your husbands thoughts would make more sense if this was a parenting book, but it's not. Again it is a collection of essays that center around the topic of teaching values without the crutch of religion. As an athiest parent I don't get to say "because Jesus said so". So my job may be a little harder, I have to have logical, justifiable reasons for what I do. This is a great book and I hope you don't let the title put you off.
I know there was a blog post somewhere by the author about this very topic, but I can't find it just now.


----------



## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AutumnAir* 
"Parenting Beyond Belief: On Raising Ethical, Caring Kids Without Religion"

I showed this to DH the other day - it's on my wishlist on amazon, and to my surprise he was really offended. To him, the sub-title implies that it's difficult or surprising to be able to raise ethical, caring kids without religion. Basically, to him, the title of the book is simply pandering to and feeding into the belief that the religious of the world have (or feel they have) a monopoly on morality.

Thoughts?

That's an interesting point of view.

Now when I look at the title, I do sense a bit of the same thing, that in order to raise caring, kind, ethical children, you'll need help because religion generally does the "work". I think I see that thought because of the above comments, so I can't say I would have automatically seen that and thought, "huh? That's odd".

I do think though, and I have this point of view with all books (I read a lot), specifically with parenting books- take what works, and leave the rest. Sure, the title might make you cringe, but there may actually be some amazing words of wisdom in Chapter 3 (haven't read the book, so I don't know whats in the chapter, but, you get what I mean). I try to ignore titles for the most part, because they are designed to market and sell.

I think the thing is though, it is easy to raise moral, ethical, kind children in this world. It just requires more thinking then spitting out, "Jesus said, so that's it"


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## KatWrangler

Well the ILs are coming to town on Friday. This is going to be a very interesting weekend (see my other threads about whats going on with my life....lets say it sucks big time.)

Anyhow, we are going to tell them we are Atheist.







: No more faking the blessing before dinner anymore! Woot!







:


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## Theoretica

Good luck KatWrangler! I totally identify with the blessing issue. ILs usually ask one of the kids to do it. My 15yo usually says no thanks, but my 8yo will sometimes do it. We have done some basic 'thanking the earth' kinda stuff with them before, so that's pretty much where she goes with it. In the end though gma and gpa don't tend to notice, so we'll leave it at that.

For me, 'outing' ourselves to some of our family would really hurt and scare them. These are people who FUNDAMENTALLY believe that if you don't agree with their beliefs you will burn in a literal hellfire. It's a real fear to them, and while their way might be dogmatic and incorrect, it's still something that I'm just not on this planet to do. I broached the subject with my Aunt a few times and she was SOBBING, heartbroken that I'd even admitted to going to a UU church! Our ILs are the same way. I know these people have done a lot of harm because of their religion, but I'm at a point that I just don't think that was ever their intention, it's the result of years of programming that I was lucky enough to escape. Crashing their world down isn't going to help our relationship or anyone's happiness or stress level, so it's just not something we feel obligated to do.

At the same time we are definitely at the point that when we meet new people who ask what church we go to, we do say we're atheists. We even go to the UU church sometimes, but I'm done pretending to have religion to make a total stranger feel more comfortable!


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## teale

Good for you for "coming out". I'm pretty open about being agnostic, but I tend to steer away from it in conversations. Most of the time, when it does come up, it leads to some good conversation. With my family, they speak of their religion all the time, but I wouldn't dare broach them with the subject of the other possibilities out there, like, they might be wrong, and there really is nothing.

I got into a bit of a debate the other night when we were at my IL's regarding what the Mormon church believes versus what they don't. I held my ground pretty well, despite my DH's grandpa thinking that the "rules" were guidelines and you didn't have to follow them. I explained that they present them as such, but generally speaking, they are rules to be followed, since guidelines don't generally lead to punishment. We got into a good discussion about interpretation, and the difference between those who follow the letter of the law and those who take it to a whole new level (fundamentalists). It applies to all religions I think. I think DH's grandpa didn't know I knew as much as I did- but he tends to think he knows everything about everything, so whatever.

Did anyone catch the Oprah yesterday about the FLDS commune in Texas? Sure was an interesting, and heartbreaking episode


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## Theoretica

Do you have a link for the Oprah thing teale?


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## treehugz

does anybody else get forwarded religious emails from christian family/friends? I have some in-laws who send me that junk and I always just ignore it since I'm a closet non-believer around them. It's usually feel-good stories, but my bil just sent the story about the atheist professor and Einstein as a student who humiliates him. I want to reply so bad, if nothing else to just say that it is false that Einstein ever did that. Do any of you ever reply to stuff like this?


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## ~PurityLake~

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treehugz* 
does anybody else get forwarded religious emails from christian family/friends? I have some in-laws who send me that junk and I always just ignore it since I'm a closet non-believer around them. It's usually feel-good stories, but my bil just sent the story about the atheist professor and Einstein as a student who humiliates him. I want to reply so bad, if nothing else to just say that it is false that Einstein ever did that. Do any of you ever reply to stuff like this?

Yes, I get tons of this crap from my 80 year old grandma. Yeah, most was feel good stuff, but so dang corny. Once it became offensive, I had no qualms saying so. I emailed her back and I told her exactly why the email was offensive (something about only Christians deserve the good things in this world and another about Christmas trees are for Christ - mas and I had to give a short synopsis about how the tree has nothing to do with Christ). She took it very well when I pointed out there are many types of people in this world and condemning a whole group of them is not a nice thing to do and not a nice message to spam the internet world with. Now I just get the nice emails from her.


----------



## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
Do you have a link for the Oprah thing teale?

Here's the link to an article on her site. It looks like there are some extensive links from the show on it.

http://www.oprah.com/article/pressro...polygamy-ranch


----------



## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treehugz* 
does anybody else get forwarded religious emails from christian family/friends? I have some in-laws who send me that junk and I always just ignore it since I'm a closet non-believer around them. It's usually feel-good stories, but my bil just sent the story about the atheist professor and Einstein as a student who humiliates him. I want to reply so bad, if nothing else to just say that it is false that Einstein ever did that. Do any of you ever reply to stuff like this?

I think I do, but I just ignore it. Any forwards from my mom they go in the trash. We had a debate about gay marriage one day on the phone, and I was bombarded with ridiculous emails about how wrong it is for days. I finally sent her an email and told her I didn't agree, wouldn't never agree with her point of view, and she needed to stop.

I try not to engage people like that though. I've found that most of them send them to people who don't believe to start something, whether it be to cultivate some interest, or to start a flame war.


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## teale

Bumping up!

So ladies, it seems as though my parents have not let go of their dream of me returning to their church. My younger brother has been staying with us for the past week or so, and he's informed me that my parents are doing everything in their power to get me, my husband and my son back into the church.

To say I'm livid, doesn't even touch it. They apparently think because I discuss their religious life with them, that it means I am still attached to it. Apparently, because my best friend is serving a mission, and I write her, it means I still want to go to church in some messed up way. I'm annoyed. I'm frustrated.

This is the thing, if I don't respect their religion, and let's be serious, I don't, but I'm civil to them about it, and engage them regarding their daily routines within it, I'm going to have to be done with them. I mean, my parents are literally, and I say this with deep sadness, nothing without their church. I'm not sure they would know how to function without the church in their life, and if I take that out of our relationship- we'll have nothing.

Now, all these past angry feelings are popping up. I'm angry about the fact that they missed their grandson's 1st birthday because it was a Sunday. I'm angry that they have gone behind my back and sent missionaries to my door despite my pleadings NOT TO. I'm angry that they continue to pray for me (I know that I can't help this), but I'm just tired of being so damn respectful to them about their beliefs, despite how I feel about them, only for them to disregard MY life, and MY choices.

And even worse, it sucks knowing that your parents are NEVER going to love you fully unless you come back to their religion.

I need to get my named removed from this church, I want this to send the message home that I am finished, and will no longer tolerate any behavior like this. I'm done being nice about this. I'm done hearing them tell me I'll come back because they've had visions and dreams. I need them to know that it's NEVER going to happen.

And boy, are they in for a rough ride when they realize that they are pushing my brother away, and he wants nothing to do with the church too.


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## spruce

teale









I am so sorry for what you're going through. My grandmother is Nazarene, and to say she's been...pushy...about her faith is putting it mildly. My aunts on that side are also extremely devout Nazarene, and it took me REALLY pissing them off to get them to leave me alone. (I think the most evil thing they said was something about not seeing my babies in Heaven...until my father died and my grandmother said, "I hope he didn't die a Roman Catholic. I would like to see him in Heaven." Grrrrr.

I hope you find a way to find peace with this decision. For me, I had to do what you're contemplating...walk away and not look back at them. Of course, these are my aunts and grandmother, not my parents. This must be very hard for you.









love, penelope


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## AmyB736

Hey Mama's, I hope it's okay if I post this here. I'm not sure if it's ever been brought up before so I apologize if it has. I could really use some advise though.

My soon to be 6 yo dd has been thinking about death lately. My grandfather recently passed away and my husbands grandmother passed away a little over a year ago so I think that is why she is having these thoughts. She always asks me if I'm old, is Daddy old, is Mom-Mom and Grandaddy old and I know she asks because she's afraid we're going to die. I just tell her "No, we're still very young." and you can tell she's relieved.

Well tonight she crawled into my lap and whispered in my ear "Mommy, I'm scared to get old and die." and she had tears in her eyes.







I felt so horrible for her. I just hugged her tight and said you don't need to worry about that sweetie, it's going to be a long, long time before you are old. So this brings me to the question, what would you say to your child, have you talked to them about death, what do you say?


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## Theoretica

The book called "Parenting Beyond Belief" touches on this really well! I remember when my dd snuggled up and said the same thing. I think it's developmental, when they really 'get it' that life isn't forever.

Anyways, we talked about what happens to everything when it dies. The body stops working and the earth uses it to make more life.

Hope that helps


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## Serenyd

I'd like to chat about biblical teaching in schools .... my son goes to a private christian school (all the private schools around here are christian) and while I like it that he is getting taught good values and learning about the bible, I Hate it that they are pushing their dogmatic christian views on him and brainwashing him ... for example "if you don't do X, you are going to burn in the everlasting damnation of hell." He comes home all worried about stuff and talking about how Jesus is real and lives in our hearts and minds ... I Know it is more upsetting for DP because he is atheist and I'm only agnostic and was raised in a christian home. I think DP actually told DS last year that god is make-believe, which didn't go over well with his kindergarten teacher! Just wondering if anyone is in the same boat.


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## Vishapmama

Hi. Nice to find all of you here! My DH and I are atheist and raising our two kids without religion. We are both recovering Catholics. Will write more later...


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## beansmama

bump bump!

Atheists should *always* be on the front page! lol









So how is everyone doing? I haven't posted here in awhile...my son is now 8 weeks old (tomorrow!) and my dd just started kindergarten last week (and of course she's already sick! makes me wish i would've just homeschooled after all!).

DH and I are planning on going to UU again soon - probably the 27th for the yom kippur (sp?) thing...i thought it sounded interesting.

Anyway, just saying hi and seeing what everyone is up to!


----------



## Hatteras Gal

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Serenyd* 
I'd like to chat about biblical teaching in schools .... my son goes to a private christian school (all the private schools around here are christian) and while I like it that he is getting taught good values and learning about the bible, I Hate it that they are pushing their dogmatic christian views on him and brainwashing him ... for example "if you don't do X, you are going to burn in the everlasting damnation of hell." He comes home all worried about stuff and talking about how Jesus is real and lives in our hearts and minds ... I Know it is more upsetting for DP because he is atheist and I'm only agnostic and was raised in a christian home. I think DP actually told DS last year that god is make-believe, which didn't go over well with his kindergarten teacher! Just wondering if anyone is in the same boat.

But he's at a Christian school, so what are you expecting? Of course they're going to be "pushing their dogmatic christian views on him...", it's part of the curriculum. That's what you agree to when you send your kids to a religious school. In my opinion, you have to work hard to combat those messages at home and understand that he will learn those things in school; or send him to public school. It's one of the reasons that although I believe I got a fantastic education in Catholic school, I am not going to send my kids to Catholic school.


----------



## marieangela

I haven't posted here in quite some time. I have a son in 1st grade, one who is four and a baby girl. I haven't really gotten into explaining much to them yet. I've been feeling like I'm surrounded by super-religious people lately. My neighbors on both sides are and it seems many people as ds1s school are. It wierds me out. I'm trying to prepare to field the questions when they come. I am once again going to drive 20 minutes each way to go to take ds2to the preschool that ds1 went to. It is in a UU church, but not afiliated with it at all. Wonderful school and worth the drive. Closer to home, most people send their children to religious preschools and I did not want to do that for ds1 and won't for any of my other children.


----------



## Theoretica

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Serenyd* 
I'd like to chat about biblical teaching in schools .... my son goes to a private christian school (all the private schools around here are christian) and while I like it that he is getting taught good values and learning about the bible, I Hate it that they are pushing their dogmatic christian views on him and brainwashing him ... for example "if you don't do X, you are going to burn in the everlasting damnation of hell." He comes home all worried about stuff and talking about how Jesus is real and lives in our hearts and minds ... I Know it is more upsetting for DP because he is atheist and I'm only agnostic and was raised in a christian home. I think DP actually told DS last year that god is make-believe, which didn't go over well with his kindergarten teacher! Just wondering if anyone is in the same boat.

No...sorry, that would be a deal breaker for me. There's no way I'd send my kid to a religious school. The brainwashing is way too powerful, they are way to susceptible and vulnerable. I'd suggest public school or homeschooling, is there a Montessori near you?


----------



## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hatteras Gal* 
But he's at a Christian school, so what are you expecting? Of course they're going to be "pushing their dogmatic christian views on him...", it's part of the curriculum. That's what you agree to when you send your kids to a religious school. In my opinion, you have to work hard to combat those messages at home and understand that he will learn those things in school; or send him to public school. It's one of the reasons that although I believe I got a fantastic education in Catholic school, I am not going to send my kids to Catholic school.

Yeah, I agree with this. No matter how good the school is, if it's religious, there is no way any of my children will go to it.

I think back to the brainwashing I recieved once a week at my church services (I still remember songs that I learned when I was three, but I can barely remember what I learned in my favorite course in High School, let alone what I made for dinner a month ago). Knowing how much that has affected me, and it was once a week, for just under two hours- I shudder at how further the damage could have been if it had been 5 days a week for over 6 hours.


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## siobhang

There is a reason why religions invest in early education and schooling. Get 'em while they are young, and all that...


----------



## beansmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Serenyd* 
I'd like to chat about biblical teaching in schools .... my son goes to a private christian school (all the private schools around here are christian) and while I like it that he is getting taught good values and learning about the bible, I Hate it that they are pushing their dogmatic christian views on him and brainwashing him ... for example "if you don't do X, you are going to burn in the everlasting damnation of hell." He comes home all worried about stuff and talking about how Jesus is real and lives in our hearts and minds ... I Know it is more upsetting for DP because he is atheist and I'm only agnostic and was raised in a christian home. I think DP actually told DS last year that god is make-believe, which didn't go over well with his kindergarten teacher! Just wondering if anyone is in the same boat.

What do you expect? You are paying for your child to be indoctrinated. No way would I ever let DD go to a religious school...


----------



## AngeliqueW

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Serenyd* 
I'd like to chat about biblical teaching in schools .... my son goes to a private christian school (all the private schools around here are christian) and while I like it that he is getting taught good values and learning about the bible, I Hate it that they are pushing their dogmatic christian views on him and brainwashing him ... for example "if you don't do X, you are going to burn in the everlasting damnation of hell." He comes home all worried about stuff and talking about how Jesus is real and lives in our hearts and minds ... I Know it is more upsetting for DP because he is atheist and I'm only agnostic and was raised in a christian home. I think DP actually told DS last year that god is make-believe, which didn't go over well with his kindergarten teacher! Just wondering if anyone is in the same boat.

Why did you choose this school? What's wrong with your public school (I know, that's a silly question)? What about homeschooling?
We are planning to homeschool. If that didn't work out for some reason, we'd consider lots of alternatives besides public school, but not a religious school.


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## Hatteras Gal

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngeliqueW* 
Why did you choose this school? What's wrong with your public school *(I know, that's a silly question)?* What about homeschooling?
We are planning to homeschool. If that didn't work out for some reason, we'd consider lots of alternatives besides public school, but not a religious school.

There are plenty of good public schools out there.

Today my kids were having their little people pray to the flying spaghetti monster and my dd1 was talking about "mind control school." Dh and I have never used that particular phrase around her so it was pretty cool/amusing to hear her say it, knowing that it was in the context of praying and religion.


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## purplepaperclip

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
There is a reason why religions invest in early education and schooling. Get 'em while they are young, and all that...

Yup, I heard that repeatedly growing up. "Gotta build up the sunday school, youth group, etc" "If we get the kids to come, we'll eventually get the parents to come." That whole type of thing.







Irked me then, and it irks me now.


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## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *suebee79* 
Yup, I heard that repeatedly growing up. "Gotta build up the sunday school, youth group, etc" "If we get the kids to come, we'll eventually get the parents to come." That whole type of thing.







Irked me then, and it irks me now.

I heard that frequently too. And I've said it before, but I can still remember songs from church that I was taught as young as 3 years old, but can't remember what I made for dinner a week ago


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## AngeliqueW

Hey Everybody!
Fall is here bringing my favorite holidays: Halloween (I love to dress up) and Thanksgiving (a day for gratitude, who woulda thunk it?)!
BUT
That means that XMas crap will be everywhere before you know it...uke
I'm still trying out how to be festive in December in a way that's meaningful but not connected to all the B.S. It may be silly, but I really miss the decorations from my childhood. Thoughts?


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## Hatteras Gal

I'm a decorator. I grew up Catholic and I love everything about Christmas. I even miss Christmas Eve Mass. But I don't go. Too complicated to explain to my kids. Who were shouting at a Veggie Tales tape the other night. "There is no such thing as god!" I don't put out anything religious, like a nativity though.


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## Theoretica

We usually do our 'official' holiday celebration on the solstice, because that's been celebrated for eons and centuries and has nothing to do with supernatural deities.

December 25th is when Santa comes


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## earth-mama

Hi-

I am new to this thread and to the Mothering Community. I am atheist, but my partner is mildly afflicted by some god beliefs. It hasn't been an issue for us. In the past we have celebrated Xmas usually with his family, often attending Mass on Xmas-eve. I'm not really into it, but I figure that one night per year is acceptable as my partner enjoys it. Anyway, the real reason I am writing is that I am interested in having our new family, we now have a wonderful 8 month old daughter, celebrate Winter Solstice.

What sort of celebrations do you do or do you have any recommendations for good websites or books. I figure that we can celebrate both xmas and winter solstice, that way our daughter will grow up with a variety of beliefs from which to choose from.

Partner to







(7 years) Mother to







(8 months) 2














and 1


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## ~PurityLake~

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
We usually do our 'official' holiday celebration on the solstice, because that's been celebrated for eons and centuries and has nothing to do with supernatural deities.

December 25th is when Santa comes









I want to celebrate the winter solstice, but I haven't yet. My mom is Christian and my stepdad is atheist. They always to the traditional American christmas thing. Even if they're out of state for the actual holiday, they put on a show when they get back with tree and gifts. My husband is atheist but has no interest in nature type holidays. He tends to want to do the christmas thing just because it's what he did as a kid and because it's what 'everybody' else is doing and he doesn't want to disappoint our kids by them not getting a christmas when 'everyone' else does.


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## VeezieTG

wow, what a relief to find this thread... even tho it feels as if its "tucked away." i had to do an actual search for it. i kept seeing all of the christian/religion based threads/tribes all over the place, but not a smidge of atheism...

anyway, i'm going to introduce and then watch it get lost in the massive 23 page thread this is...

i have 2 boys and another on the way and my bf and i are raising them in our secular way... i would say we are atheist, but every once in awhile we start to feel sentimental and get a little agnostic. lol

ds1 is starting to question about god, heaven, angels. stuff he sees on tv, in movies, or hears people say. he's only 3.5 so we haven't had any major in depth conversations. my bf made the mistake of telling him that god was like a dragon, something in stories but that didn't really exist. now my son has this overwhelming urge to tell people about the god dragon...







which lead to a discussion between him and a 5 yo who just started christian school, which lead to a discussion between me and her mother... "why does julien think god is a dragon?" uh........... because they're so similar???

also, we're facing people around us starting to ask us how we expect to teach our children any morals or values without teaching them about god... we've responded in every civilized, intelligent way we know how, but the questions never seem to end... one of my bf's co-workers even asked me, "how do you think you keep being blessed with the miracles of more children?" and i had to say, "by having more sex?" because she just wouldn't lay off!!

so how do you handle "outsiders" even if they're in you're extended family, and their running commentary on your role as an atheist parent?


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## AngeliqueW

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VeezieTG* 
so how do you handle "outsiders" even if they're in you're extended family, and their running commentary on your role as an atheist parent?

If they're outsiders, they probably don't know.
We hide behind the smokescreen of the UU Church. Most people have no idea what UUs really are and are content to hear the word "church."
Sometimes I lie. Like when DHs 90 yr old grandma asked if we were going to baptise DS, I said we would.









DH is pretty good at lecturing people about the corruption, hypocrisy and control of organized religion if anyone gets too uppity.
We're lucky that most of our family doesn't seem to care if we go to hell.









And then there's the standard reply to any unsolicited advice: "I would never want to control the choices you make for your family. This is what is right for us and it is not up for debate."


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## KatWrangler

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VeezieTG* 
also, we're facing people around us starting to ask us how we expect to teach our children any morals or values without teaching them about god... we've responded in every civilized, intelligent way we know how, but the questions never seem to end... one of my bf's co-workers even asked me, "how do you think you keep being blessed with the miracles of more children?" and i had to say, "by having more sex?" because she just wouldn't lay off!!

so how do you handle "outsiders" even if they're in you're extended family, and their running commentary on your role as an atheist parent?

Uh, believing in God or not believing in God has anything to do with morals. Ask them about Pedophile Priest and how they were moved from Parish to Parish (eventhough it was known by the higher up Dudes) what was going on. What kind of Morals is that of a Christian?

I know for a fact of Christians that are are Godly but will turn around and say nasty things and make fun of a disabled person.







Is this what Christian Morals is about?

These are not isolated incidents!


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## KatWrangler

In regards to the "Miracles of More Children", uh do the have the $$$$ to takre of these children? I sure the heck don't. Don't let them then give you "Well God will provide." Uh, yes God will provide me with Birth Control!


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## geogeek

I just found the book "God is not Great. How religion poisons everything." I'm only about 30 pages in but so far I'm liking it. I have a evangelical sister-in-law that has started getting preachy with DH and me. Can't wait to have some more ammo when she starts on her rants.


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## KatWrangler

Quote:


Originally Posted by *geogeek* 
I just found the book "God is not Great. How religion poisons everything." I'm only about 30 pages in but so far I'm liking it. I have a evangelical sister-in-law that has started getting preachy with DH and me. Can't wait to have some more ammo when she starts on her rants.









Thats fine to believe in the flying spaghetti monster, just don't shove in my face and make me believe it. You know?

Have fun with her.


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## Theoretica

I really love the God is Not Great book!!! It was so awesome to read, and I'm thrilled that there are actually books about the damages caused by religion as a whole...

Let us know what you think when you're finished


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## VeezieTG

i wanted to get that book too. also found a really great doc on netflix called the atheist files or something to that effect. amazing.

as for my moral compass. i always ask, what about being good just cos its the human thing to do. people who wait for invisible rewards from invisible people for being good? sounds like santa claus! i, personally, don't want my kids to grow up thinking the only reason they should be good is because they're scared to death they'll suffer for eternity. and what's worse is to wholly believe that people are innately evil and "sinners" and NEED god in order to be good.

my main problem is family and friends who think that we're somehow not teaching our kids any morals. my bf's boss (he works in a close-knit family biz where he's really the only non-family member, but they do treat him like family) had asked him flat-out, "how do you expect them to grow up with any values without religion?" and he very politely explained that it takes alot more than an imaginary friend to instill morals and values. then there's my mil. sweet, non-practicing catholic that she is, who insisted we get our kids baptized. my bf laughed in her face. i, a little nicer, explained that we didn't have any reason to do something so silly. and she later admitted she wanted it more for the keepsakes (the christening gown, baptism certificate, etc) than for any religious ideology... still... seems more and more we have people confronting us about it than giving us the "right on."

making progress in the community tho. there is now a group of almost 100 atheist families and even a billboard proclaiming, "don't believe in god? you're not alone!" with an atheist family group website and phone number on it.

i went to a uu church a few times. they still have services and talk about god and jesus. at least the one here... couldn't really bring myself to bring my kids to that. they might get the wrong idea, since me and my bf make so many atheist-based jokes at home... lol


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## Susana

hi everyone








my family and I are really going for it this year regarding the holidays and to be honest, I hope we're doing the right thing.
My husband and son (age 17) are atheists. My daughter (16) calls herself agnostic. I go by atheist too, but recently read some literature on naturalistic pantheism and felt like the label fit me pretty well. I don't believe in a supernatural god, goddesses or an afterlife. anyway-
for all our years as a married couple, dh and I have spent Thanksgiving and Christmas Eve running between his family get together (boring as hell) and my family get together (loud, obnoxious, but sort of fun). We were never happy with it, but figured it was out of our control. Well, last year both of my parents passed away. Last year's holidays were awful for me...I went out anyway to celebrate-tried to put on a happy face for the kids, but they were depressed too. We got through it.
fast forward to this year. We've decided to blow the family get togethers off. I'm not on good terms with my sisters after all that happened last year (and I'm right to be avoiding them now, they are toxic and the older one is verbally abusive) so even if they are doing somethign we won't be invited.
My husband's family gets together on Christmas Eve at his sister's house one hour away from here. They are all big time Xtians and they know we are not. The gatherings are SO.BORING. We sit around, looking at each other, no one talks except to make fun of each other-that is their sense of humor. Gift giving is gift cards to stores-literally a bunch of envelopes being passed around....I'm not ungrateful, it's kind of nice to get something, but it all seems so forced and meaningless. Last year, my MIL made a big deal out of my parents dying and how hard it had to be for me to be there...I wish she woudln't have gone on and on...I spent an hour in the bathroom crying (my mom died in Nov, so it was incredibly fresh) and when I finally came out everyone acted like nothing happened. I had giant red eyes and splotches all over my face, and the place was dead silent. It was awful. anyway....
We've decided to stay home on Thanksgiving and Xmas Eve, make a big special dinner and relax, just the 4 of us. This sounds like perfection to me...starting our own traditions as a family so when the kids are married and have kids (if they do that!) they can come home if they like to our holidays. If not, okay, but you know what I mean







It just feels like it's time to start our own thing-finally-after all these years. I wonder if my kids will miss the hubby's side of the family party, since they are family-- and if we should go, even though they themselves have said it is the most boring gathering of people on the planet. I know my kids and I are still mourning my parents (me more than they) so it's still going to be hard. I'm in a "take care of me and them" phase, ya know?
I do invite hubby's mom and dad and grandma to our house for Yule dinner, which I always make special....I don't call it that since I know it would freak them out..but they never come.
anyway, this is a lot of rambling...thanks for reading. I'm glad you're all here. I only know 1 other atheist IRL and he's in the closet still. It can be lonely not having other like-minded people to discuss stuff with...


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## AngeliqueW

Susana- I'm sorry for your loss. I think it's great that your skipping the in-law's yawnfest of a gathering. I hope this Solstice season is full of meaningful togetherness and yummy food for you and your family.


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## m.m.m.

We celebrate all of the holidays, but the entire family is of similar mind. Simply for sake of tradition and not for any religious reasons. I do love the Christmas tree, and Easter bunny, but that's the extent of it. Oh, and fun holiday foods and other deorations









Questions for religion and kids...some of DS (7 years old)'s friends are religious. And talk of church. I think he's at the entirely wrong age to look into what might be right, etc. But one of the friend's moms says that it's not like that, they wouldn't push religion on him at all. That's all that would be discussed though, right?
I think in his teens or at least closer to that age he might be okay to go and look at it more closely. And while he is intelligent, it's a tough age because he is taught to be respectful and that adults do "know." I don;t want him to listen to what's said and then go off of it.


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## AngeliqueW

Quote:


Originally Posted by *m.m.m.* 
Questions for religion and kids...some of DS (7 years old)'s friends are religious. And talk of church. I think he's at the entirely wrong age to look into what might be right, etc. *But one of the friend's moms says that it's not like that, they wouldn't push religion on him at all.* That's all that would be discussed though, right?
I think in his teens or at least closer to that age he might be okay to go and look at it more closely. And while he is intelligent, it's a tough age because he is taught to be respectful and that adults do "know." I don;t want him to listen to what's said and then go off of it.

Wouldn't push?!?! Even if they _just discuss_ <cough b*llsh*t cough> there is always pressure when you're the only person in the room who is different, especially when you're 7. Peer Pressure! And at church they use subtle techniques to influence you- from music and lighting to fear and conformity.


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## m.m.m.

Well yeah, and they would make the whole thing fun, exciting, all of that. Smart enough to use things like that to draw people in.
ugh.
No he's entirely NOT going to be going soon, I'm no comfortabloe with it until later on. But wondering what age kids are able to look at things more objectively...


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## Vishapmama

Hey all! I think I've posted here before, but haven't in quite some time. So hello again. I'm glad to have connected with you all.

My 6 yo dd is a first grader at our local public school. We're in a neighborhood outside of Philly (on what's known as the "Main Line"), that is relatively homogenously White and affluent. Many of the kids at dd's school are connected to each other through the churches they attend. There is a UU church in the area, but we have not been there, though I may perhaps check it out some time. But as a previous poster said, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable at all with talk about "God", "higher power", etc.

Anyhow, I am a little torn because I want my kid to have connections to a community outside of school, but don't quite know where to go for this.

My daughter recently told me that she and her little friends were talking during recess about ghosts and spirits (I guess in connection with Halloween), and what happens when someone dies. Some kids said that God comes down and takes your spirit to heaven. My kid said she thought that it was like "compost". When you die, you decompose and turn into food so that other things can live. She tells me some of the kids were not happy with this and insisted that God comes and takes you to heaven. My kid also said she was glad a grown up wasn't there to hear her because she thinks she would get in trouble. I tried to explain that in public school people are allowed to believe or not believe in anything they want, and if she ever feels intimidated about her (dis) beliefs, she needs to let me know.

It's amazing that we have to work so hard to keep the religion garbage out of our children's lives and minds. I have always felt our work is so much harder than that of parents who can turn to a doctrine.

Peace all.


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## m.m.m.

For afterlife & talking about that to my older two (ages 7 & 4.5) I try to not only give my beliefs (yeah, it would be along the lines of compost:cremation and that's it...probably not go over well at school?), but variety and tell him that parts up to him, since no one really knows. So far they've taken to reincarnation....coming back as robots. Makes as much sense as anything else, I figure







But we've told them that some people believe in this or that, and they can make their own choice as to that.


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## AngeliqueW

Vishapmama- I feel like I end up being a UU pusher on this thread. I'm really not though! It's not for everybody and UU groups are not all the same. I do like the UU Church near me. It is lay lead and very accepting of a variety of beliefs. Some UU groups even choose to be a "fellowship" and abandon the church moniker. IMHO it's worth checking out. The worst that could happen is you feel like you wasted a couple of hours.
As for other ways to tie your kids into a community outside of school here's a couple of ideas: start an atheist play group; hobby related groups- knitting etc.; volunteer at a local shelter (human or animal).
Good Luck!


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## mummytoH

I'm here! I'm a Humanist Celebrant, I conduct non-religious funerals, naming days & legal weddings. Our little boy is only 14 months old, but I know it's going to be a challenge bringing him up in a secular household - especially as we live in quite a 'churchy' town - already we attend a toddler group, which is in a church hall - but I didn't burst into flames upon entering & there isn't an alternative (all our local groups are in church halls!) and my Son enjoys it, the money raised all goes back into the toddler group (although I suppose we pay for the hire of the hall.. which goes into church coffers...!?) but it's just a hall at the end of the day.

My Husband is also not religious in any way, so at least we'll provide our Son with a united front. We'll cross any hurdles as they come along. We celebrate the festive season, but from a pagan/secular viewpoint - I send Christmas cards, but make sure they say 'seasons greetings'! Suitably vague!

Look forward to having a proper read through this thread and getting some advice no doubt as things crop up in the future


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## teale

We had a death in the family this month as well, and as every death does, it causes me to evaluate how I feel about my beliefs. It was this month, that I finally got why Heaven appeals to so many people. Death is so final- everything in life, generally speaking, is linked to another chance, or another opportunity. Death is it, it's final. Being able to say "We'll see him again", seems to really speak to a grieving widow.

I was looking after DS when I had this realization, and I just got shivers. It's like we need to lie to ourselves or create a fantasy to make ourselves be able to cope with the fact that life really is just a series of events, that end with death.

I endured much god talk as well- someone asked me if I feel empty thinking that this person was just gone, and I said, "No, not really. I'm glad that he was able to have a full, and enriched life, and that we're all here to celebrate him".

As for Christmas, this becomes an epic battle every year. Both our families celebrate, and celebrate in a religious manner, as well as materialistically as well. I always feel like a sell out when it comes to the holidays, because I do love Christmas, just not the religious aspect. This is the first year we've spent with my family, and they always read the "Christmas Story" from the bible- I'm not sure how I should deal with that, as I don't want DS to be subjected to it.


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## boatrat

We had a death in our family last month, and had to travel to my hometown in rural Southeast Georgia. During the service, the preacher said that this day would be a very sad day without the faith in Jesus Christ and being reunited in heaven. I thought to myself, "yeah, that pretty well sums it up."

It is sad to lose someone that you love and know that they are just gone. You will still have your memories, but you will never see them again. I can completely see why people cling to religion and get so infuriated (scared?) when you don't feel the same.

On a happier note, I'm looking forward to Xmas. In my family it was always just about being together, enjoying each other's company, eating too much food and watching The Christmas Story a million times. I can't wait to share that tradition with my DS.


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## kelsey1

Quote:


Originally Posted by *california_mom* 
I'm here... I can't believe we're back. Naked, but back.

As for sneezing, I say "Bless you." Heck, I figger I can bless anyone I want! I've got the power



















I love this. I didn't belong to the tribe before but I'm glad I found it.


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## m.m.m.

I can see turning to religion in the case of an illness. The heaven stuff sounds so tempting, especially if you wer having to go through dying yourself or grieving an upcoming loss for a close one. Totally can se the appeal. Like ultimate fantasy. But also seems like a cop-out. Not sure how to say it and sound nice, and also have no clue what I would do in the situation. But it would seem more comforting than my own beliefs


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## Susana

the deaths of my parents made my belief in nothing after death even stronger than it was before. When people told me my parents were somewhere better, or that I would see them again I flat out told them, I don't think so. People can't really try to comfort you when they know you don't believe in the whole heavenly afterlife thing. you know, all I really would have liked was an opportunity to talk about how hard what I was going through was, or maybe a hug would suffice, but people always felt like that had to throw that extra crap in.

oh well.

Now I have MIL on my case trying to get me to commit to Xmas family gatherings. you know, 'cause I totally want to be surrounded by *his* family and celebrating Jesus' birth. Yeh, right.


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## DaughterOfKali

I'm finding that I'm definitely agnostic but starting to seriously lean towards atheist.

Funny thing is, I'd love to believe there is some wonderful, loving higher being out there watching over us. But I just can't wrap my head around it. I'm UU so my mind is still open to possibilities.


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## teale

I'm actually nervous about X-mas this year. This is the first time I've spent it with my family in a long time, and I know for a fact that they read the nativity story in the bible prior to opening the presents. I don't want to participate or have DS participate. I've been thinking about ways to bring it up before the day of so my parents are realistically aware that we won't be participating.

I just know it's going to cause an issue with them. I'm so respectful of them and their beliefs, but I never, ever have the same thing reciprocated.


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## Hatteras Gal

Yesterday, dd1, 7, handed a card to me that she made either at Girl Scouts or school. It said "Have a Happy Happy Thanksgiving" on the front and then inside it said, "I am thankful for pumpkin pie and I am *not* thankful for god." lol


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## teale

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hatteras Gal* 
Yesterday, dd1, 7, handed a card to me that she made either at Girl Scouts or school. It said "Have a Happy Happy Thanksgiving" on the front and then inside it said, "I am thankful for pumpkin pie and I am *not* thankful for god." lol


That's HILARIOUS!



































:rotf lmao


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## mamakah

Hi! Just joining the tribe!!!!


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## AngeliqueW

Does everybody celebrate Thanksgiving?
Do you actually give thanks? If so, who/what are you thanking?
We just sort of thank the Universe for things we're grateful for.


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## mamakah

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngeliqueW* 
Does everybody celebrate Thanksgiving?
Do you actually give thanks? If so, who/what are you thanking?
We just sort of thank the Universe for things we're grateful for.

wow. I never thought about who we were thanking when saying our thanks. It certainly has never been a God. I suppose we are thanking the universe also. I look at it more as being grateful, not necissarily thanking someone or something. Does that make sense?


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## WindyCityMom

NEW HERE! Subbing







Consider this my first subscribed thread on MDC








If anyone would like an introduction.. here goes








I'm a 19 year old SAHM to one beautiful girl and another on the way. My mother "just believed in god", as she called it, and never baptized me because she figured I could make that choice. She has since passed away but that's the greatest gift I've ever been given. My husband was baptized catholic but kind of figures the heck with it because he doesn't practice and is very much Agnostic, though he leans moreso towards atheist. I fall more into the atheist category. Our DD is two, so I'm hoping to find some helpful thoughts and opinions on how to raise her. I'll post questions soon enough- tee-hee. For now, let me get to posting!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngeliqueW* 
Does everybody celebrate Thanksgiving?
Do you actually give thanks? If so, who/what are you thanking?
We just sort of thank the Universe for things we're grateful for.

Um, well, I just kind of eat








In all seriousness though, I don't, and can't remember ever "giving thanks". If you'd like to count thanking the person who cooked the wonderful meal, sure I thank them. I look at it (as I look at other holidays) as a time for family to get together and be happy. To enjoy ourselves. I do celebrate xmas as well because I think it's fun (as I do easter... I enjoy egg hunts a little too much







). I don't do the whole religious aspect of it.. and don't plan on teaching that to my kids. For us, it's just a time where our family can get together, open presents, and enjoy ourselves. C'mon. Exchanging gifts is fun. Getting gifts is VERY fun as well. Just my take on it


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## WindyCityMom

Okay, couldn't help myself- I have a few questions







Hope you don't mind!

I'll repeat this much from my last post







DH & I are Athiests. We have a soon-to-be 2yo DD and another DD due next month.

-First.. DHs family (I have no blood relatives, step father & family are non-religious). Anyhow, DH's family, which is pretty much the only family we deal with, are very religious, though it varies from person to person. We all (well, the lot of us) live in one household. We live in the basement apartment-for now. On top of us, is DHs mom, dad, sister, and uncle. On top of THAT, is DHs grandma and grandpa, and on top of THEM is DHs cousin, his wife, and three kids.
There are often times where I have to leave DD with DHs family. I have to try and work around these things because they go to church often and if DD is with them, she goes with. I really don't want her in church. When she was a baby, I didn't mind- she kind of thought the music was a rock fest and would just dance happily the entire time. Now that she's older and is more aware of things, I don't want her there.
DHs cousins live upstairs. DH's cousin's wife's parents are VERY religious. When they come to a party, they feel the need to bless every single person before they leave the party. I suffer major anxiety and hate the fact that I run for the hills with my DD when they leave to avoid a "dios te bendiga" uttered at her.
ALSO at the parties.. I need some good advice on this part ...they always pray before a meal. Even if it is just cutting open a watermelon at a barbeque. I also feel the need to run for the hills. I usually don't notice until they've already started praying and I get shushed by someone.. BUT- I really don't want my DD present.
As you may have guessed, it is kind of hard to avoid these situations with us being all in one large household, though we are separate. So, regarding this, *Is there a way to respectfully not take part in these situations?*. Them thanking god before a meal is a 5 minute ordeal on average- I don't feel that I'd be able to just bite the bullet, and I don't want DD in that situation.

-SECOND.. DD isn't baptized, and we don't plan on it. Our family doesn't know this. DHs family is Mexican, I am half Mexican and half White (I have Irish heritage, but other than that, I don't know much as my single white mom raised me as a person and didn't push me towards anything. she taught me alot about many cultures). In the Mexican tradition, or at least this is what Ive gathered from my husband's family, a child has a big birthday party when they are 3 years old. Something also happens at church- a presentation or something? Whatever it is, DHs uncle has announced that her birthday would be in a fancy banquet hall and that HE WILL be the godfather. So they're pushing us to baptize her. *how would you deal with this?*

-THIRD.. DH & I were married at city hall. We didn't want a wedding. Not for us... besides the religious aspects. NOW, DH's parents are pushing ME to get baptized and pushing DH to finish his religious schooling (confirmation, I guess?) so that we can get married in a church because otherwise we're living in sin. She also is planning on this because she too was married at city hall and is living "in sin". how can we tell her that we really don't care and don't plan on it, in a NICE way?

I just feel so trapped in this family. There is always some church thing going on- a baptism, a presentation, a first communion.. something. My DH works on Sundays and I'm alone with DD. I always get pressured into going, although I manage to avoid it most days. The religious aspect of things is scary- and I really want to pull DD away from it. For example, DHs grandma was furious and sad because a nephew of hers got a haircut before he got baptized. She flat out said that he was going to hell- a baby. I don't want DD exposed to this- I personally feel that some of their takes on things aren't for us. I just really don't know what to do. Any kind words would be awesome


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## AngeliqueW

WindyCityMom- In my way of thinking, they're your husband's family, so it's his responsibility to set clear boundaries with them. You should not be in the position of the bad guy. And move as soon as possible!!!


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## amylahminute

Hello from a tribe newbie. First, perhaps I should introduce myself. I'm Mylah. I attended 13 years of Catholic school and am somewhere on the spectrum between atheist and agnostic today. I still haven't decided yet whether I am one or the other. I've called myself agnostic since college, the rationale being that to say we humans just can't verify whether God does or doesn't exist was the "only intellectual position" I could take on the subject (I actually used to talk that way ). However, since then, I've started to question my line of thinking. There are a lot of imaginary things I could say I just can't know for sure exist - ranging from jackalopes to Chupacabra - and I don't say I'm agnostic about them just because I can conceive of them without proof. So I'm open to the discussion of what to label myself, but don't particularly mind not knowing what to say I am. To be honest, I don't fire too many brain cells on the subject these days. Buddhism still holds my interest these days.

Anyway, Windy's post drew me out of lurker-mode. I just wanted to say, Windy, that I would probably use your in-laws as the beginning of your children's exposure to a variety of religions. They probably aren't the last devout people your kids will encounter in life, and I believe it will give them perspective to compare your IL's beliefs to those of a devout Jew, Muslim, Baha'i, Baptist etc. If the plan is to raise your children without organized religion, then they'll perhaps find the contrast useful to really grasp the concepts of atheism and agnosticism. For one thing, I think a complete understanding of non-belief is somewhat dependent on an understanding of "faith". Plus, they'll still need to know how to be tolerant and accepting of members who do hold beliefs they don't possess themselves. So if you treat your ILs as just one type of believer among a multitude of possible beliefs, it will help them see that they don't necessarily have to choose any belief in the grand scheme.

Just my two cents (after only 4 hours of sleep and a long Thanksgiving day today). Good luck with you situation, mommy.


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## outlier

Ooh, I'd like to join this tribe too! I'm atheist, DH is non-religious (anti-religion is more like it). We don't have kids yet but I'm sure when the time comes we'll be having more than a few uncomfortable encounters with his very religious side of the family!

WindyCityMom, I'm not sure if this will help, but I'll answer your questions with what I'm planning to do with DH's family since I know we'll encounter some of the same things:

1. Based on my experience with DH's family, I would say no, there's not a way to respectfully decline "participation." In our case, they would definitely note our absence and it would only invite further questioning and guilt-tripping later on. I don't care to fight that battle. Since you live in the same household and have to go through this frequently, is there some way you can distract your DD during the five-minute prayers? My guess is it will be a while before she's old enough to actually listen to what's being said, and really, having her learn to sit there quietly for five minutes before a meal isn't such a bad skill to develop. Maybe you could have a coloring book and some crayons handy for this time to help distract her? If anyone questions you, you can say it helps keep her quiet, but your actual reason can be to further ensure she's not listening. As for the church thing, is there any way you can arrange it so she's never in their care during the times they go to church? I wouldn't be comfortable sending kids to church alone with religious relatives, at least not much past toddlerhood. Would you be okay with waiting until she starts asking questions to find other arrangements?

2. Yikes! If someone comes along with a good solution to this, I'd like to hear it. Here are the options as I see them, neither of them great:
- Refuse to have her baptized. You don't want to, she's your DD, you get to decide, so politely but firmly refuse. You could frame it as you want her to make the decision when she's older. Heck, some religions require kids to wait until they're old enough to truly "accept" it, and you could say this is how you'd like to handle it. This way they get to believe that she'll be baptized someday, and maybe by the time she's older you will have moved away and can more easily avoid the question, or keep answering, "Oh, maybe later, we don't feel she's old enough yet."
- Let them do it. She's probably too young to form any memories of it, it won't hurt her at all, and it would get them off your back and make them feel better. Tell them since they're making all the arrangements, it's totally their thing and you choose not to participate in it or take any vows. You could approach it as a strictly cultural experience rather than a religious experience, so in the future if she asks you about it or her relatives bring it up, tell her it's a just a ritual her dad's family does to welcome little kids to the family, no big deal.

We don't plan on baptizing our kids either, but I think if his family insists, we'll probably relent just because it's not worth the stress and potential alienation. We would have stipulations though: it would have to happen when they're too young to understand or care what's going on (i.e. not required to take any vows), and it would have to take place in DH's home country to further maintain the appearance that it was strictly a cultural experience. His family would see that as making it even more special, so win-win for us! Any chance you guys could do the party in Mexico?

3. I find with DH's family that giving non-committal little non-answers is sufficient to get them temporarily off my back about things. Yes, that makes me a bit of a weasel, but I know I'm never going to change them, and this way we stay on good terms without me having to feel like a liar. I'm perfectly happy toeing the line in our relationship between them asking nosy questions yet not wanting to seem rude or pushy, and us giving vague/clueless responses that don't invite further discussion. (Note: This won't work if his family is more in-your-face about getting definite answers from you.)

For example: when are you going to get baptized? "We'll see, there's really no rush to do that. *change subject*"

You need to get baptized to get married in a church. "We're already married and very happy! *change subject*"

You need to get married in a church so you're not living in sin. "Oh, we don't see it that way, but if you'd like to get re-married, we'll be honored to come to your wedding. *change subject*"

Hugs to you as you deal with this! Any chance of moving away from them or at least out of the house?


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## almadianna

I just came back from Norway and Amsterdam and it felt wonderful to be among people who didnt think that I was completely insane (and a bad mother) for not being religious or raising our children with religious beilefs. This would be much easier if I did not live in Texas I am sure, but at times it is exhausting.....


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## readermaid

I'd really like to connect with Freethinking Mamas in real life. Has anyone started/attended a playgroup or support group for atheist/agnostic families?


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## Hokulele

Christmas is upon us and DD1 is now four and becoming more aware. If you celebrate Christmas, how do you tackle the religious aspect of it?

DH and I are very firmly atheist. Our families are religious. DH's grandmother sent us a very meticulously hand-made nativity scene. First, DD loves it and second, I feel out of respect for the g'ma we shouldn't hide it away. As we set it out DD said "and here is baby Jesus" - I didn't even know she'd remember from last year. I asked her who Jesus was and she gave a very vague non-religious answer.

So I worked with her answer and told her we celebrate his life because he was a good person who respected others and the world around him and celebrating him is a way to celebrate all people who lead good lives. Ugh! It felt so inadequate, but I felt that I have to approach this now, before she is given other versions first. So I just said what came to my mind.

Also, I really don't want Christmas to be all about presents and consumerism. I want her to get the other aspects too - just not the religion.

We live in the heart of the bible belt. My family is VERY religious and have already tried to sway DD. So I want her to know fully about religion, understand that in our immediate family we don't follow any religion, but at the same time not make her feel like she's missing out. I'm having a hard time figuring out WHAT to tell her and how to make it age-appropriate.

Anyone further down this road than I am? Any advice?


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## Hokulele

Quote:


Originally Posted by *readermaid* 
I'd really like to connect with Freethinking Mamas in real life. Has anyone started/attended a playgroup or support group for atheist/agnostic families?

Oh how amazing that would be! But in my area (the heart of the bible belt) I'd be looked at as if I had four heads if I suggested such a thing to anyone.


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## DaughterOfKali

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hokulele* 
Anyone further down this road than I am? Any advice?

Although I have explained about Jesus' birth, I try to focus on Christmas being a celebration of giving/doing kind deeds. I've been bombarding my son with Hallmark christmas shows that follow the theme about love/kindness/family. I think it's finally starting to sink in.

I also talk about the new born *sun*. And that the solstice was a celebration of the light returning to dark, winter days.

Phew, hope that made some semblance of sense. After all, I haven't had my morning caffeine yet.


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## Hokulele

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaughterOfKali* 
Although I have explained about Jesus' birth, I try to focus on Christmas being a celebration of giving/doing kind deeds. I've been bombarding my son with Hallmark christmas shows that follow the theme about love/kindness/family. I think it's finally starting to sink in.

I also talk about the new born *sun*. And that the solstice was a celebration of the light returning to dark, winter days.

Phew, hope that made some semblance of sense. After all, I haven't had my morning caffeine yet.

Yes, that does all make sense... and helps me a lot. I like the idea of love/kindness/family. AND the solstice too!! Hadn't thought of that! Thanks!


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## VeezieTG

you could always just tell them that the baby jesus is the baby santa as our ds1 seems to believe (his own rationale, not ours!)... for some reason, i have way more tolerance in my kid being told to be good so santa will come, than to be good so jesus will let him into heaven...

also, wanted to share a funny story.

ds1 broke his arm recently and needed a cast. the nurse who was casting him said to him, "oh! look at all those freckles! where did you get them?" and my ds1 said, "they grew there in the sun." she said, "oh, no, i used to tell my daughter they were angel kisses. if someone asks you about your freckles you tell them their angel kisses." so he was all kinds of confused. he said, "what are angels?" i was about to answer something vague to appease him to we left, but this nurse decided to take the lead. "they're beautiful creatures with golden wings who watch us from up in heaven and keep us safe." and she said this all breathy as if she were just "touched by an angel" herself. *snicker* but my son, the little capricorn who takes everything so seriously looked at her, rolled his eyes, and said, "oh. you know that's pretend?? my freckles grew in the sun."

later on he asked me about angels and heaven, and i just said, "you were right, just pretend. but it makes people feel good. so when people talk about it, just let them. you don't have to say anything about it, if you don't want to."

anyway, with xmas coming... yes, things come up alot... that's why here at our house we're on the "put the x back in christmas" campaign. just want a nice, secular, fun time with our family.


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## expat-mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *readermaid* 
I'd really like to connect with Freethinking Mamas in real life. Has anyone started/attended a playgroup or support group for atheist/agnostic families?

I've never attended such a group, but it would be nice.
I do have a suggestion though- depending on where you live, there might be a humanist organization that meets regularly. If you don't know what humanism is, you should look it up for a better explanation than I can give.

This from wikipedia: _"Humanism is a perspective common to a wide range of ethical stances that attaches importance to human dignity, concerns, and capabilities, particularly rationality. Although the word has many senses, its meaning comes into focus when contrasted to the supernatural or to appeals to authority. Since the nineteenth century, humanism has been associated with an anti-clericalism inherited from the eighteenth-century Enlightenment philosophes. Twenty-first century Humanism tends to strongly endorse human rights, including reproductive rights, gender equality, social justice, and the separation of church and state. The term covers organized non-theistic religions, secular humanism, and a humanistic life stance."_

In some areas, humanists have organizations that meet regularly. Usually it's a family thing and they hold discussions and lectures on topics like how to be a good person in everyday life, family life, social issues. It's just a community of supportive like-minded atheists who have intelligent and meaningful discussions about the issues of life from a non-religious point of view- like a church community that is sooo NOT church. Humanist groups in general can be pretty intellectual (which I love) and philosophical and sometimes (though not usually) political but are also very down to earth and grass-rootsy.

It's nice to have a community. I always thought the IDEA of what church is SUPPOSED to be was good. A place for community support and togetherness, where people and families can talk about what it means to be a person in this world and how to be the best we can be together.


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## treehugz

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VeezieTG* 
you could always just tell them that the baby jesus is the baby santa as our ds1 seems to believe (his own rationale, not ours!)... for some reason, i have way more tolerance in my kid being told to be good so santa will come, than to be good so jesus will let him into heaven...

that's funny! i hear that in spain, latin america, and other places they say that baby jesus brings the presents. so really, your ds is "right".


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## philomom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngeliqueW* 
Does everybody celebrate Thanksgiving?
Do you actually give thanks? If so, who/what are you thanking?
We just sort of thank the Universe for things we're grateful for.

We don't really do Thanksgiving any more. We have a good life and we are grateful to the universe for that but a lot of our peace in life was gained by our hard work and plain old luck.

My teens eat none of the Thanksgiving foods so this year we didn't even pretend. The hubby and I ran off to the hot springs for the day and the kids goofed off with movies and popcorn.


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## KatWrangler

So my husband spilled the beans to his Mom and Dad.







There was some initial confusion on what my husband told them. But I clarified with DH that I had no problem with the ILs saying a prayer at their house. I just didn't want them to ask the kids to say an additional prayer. SO ITS COOL!

My husband told them before Thanksgiving and we had Thanksgiving with them. I was really nervous. But my MIL says before we sat down. "So what is everyone thankful for?" We went around the room and did this, instead of a prayer at the table.









Now, my FIL said a toast during the meal and it was kind of awkward. Its been a REALLY terrible year for us. Especially the last 6 months. But we survived the toast.


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## lurve

hi there! I am not a regular in the atheist thread but i was hoping you could help me out. i am a jewish atheist (do jewish for the customs, society but i've been a non-believer for more than half of my life). i have an almost three year old and an 11 year old DOG. the dog is going to die pretty soon and a grandparent is probably also on the way out. i am looking for some books that help explain death in an atheistic way for my daughter for when the time comes. any suggestions? thanks so much!


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## outlier

Hi lurve,
I follow the blog of Dale McGowan, a secular humanist author who has written about this subject a number of times. IMO he's a very good writer and has a lot of great insights about raising children without god/s. I haven't read his books yet ("Parenting Beyond Belief" and "Raising Freethinkers"), but here are some of his blog posts about helping kids deal with death:

http://parentingbeyondbelief.com/blog/?p=132
http://parentingbeyondbelief.com/blog/?p=336
http://parentingbeyondbelief.com/blog/?p=205
http://parentingbeyondbelief.com/blog/?p=1172

HTH!


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## lurve

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lurve* 
hi there! I am not a regular in the atheist thread but i was hoping you could help me out. i am a jewish atheist (do jewish for the customs, society but i've been a non-believer for more than half of my life). i have an almost three year old and an 11 year old DOG. the dog is going to die pretty soon and a grandparent is probably also on the way out. i am looking for some books that help explain death in an atheistic way for my daughter for when the time comes. any suggestions? thanks so much!

thanks for the resources so far. if there are any more i would GREATLY appreciate it as my daughter's Great Grandma just died this morning and she keeps wanting to know why we can't go visit her.


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## Encinalien

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho....php?t=1173838

I'm either an athiest. An agnostic. Or an apathiest (apathy + theist = I don't care if there's a "god"). But I've wanted to post my thoughts on atheistic spirituality for a while now. I just posted my theory in the spirituality forum at the above link.

Someone answered me that what I was describing is a physics concept called the string theory. I wikied it. Now I'm curious about what would be the opposite of the string theory. It already rules out god/ and or gods. But allows for transmutable energy to keep circulating perpetually.

So what would be the opposite of that? In case I want to know what it's like to not believe the string theory?


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## AngeliqueW

The opposite of String Theory is probably Creationism.


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## ImMyKidsMom

DH assumed FIL knew I was an atheist. So he mentioned it recently, and FIL freaked out. He's worried about the kids (poor guy, probably thinks his grandchildren are going to hell). He emailed my parents to "tell on" me (they don't care, and they are agnostic, anyway). He's started saying prayer at dinner now every time we visit, when he didn't before. He's an "interesting" guy, to put it nicely. I think we are in for an interesting ride. I've already prepared dd(6) for what I think might be coming. I told her it's okay if grandpa wants to tell her what he believes, but it is NOT okay for him to tell her that's what she should believe, or that mommy is wrong, or that anything bad will happen to her if she doesn't believe. I told her to tell me right away if he ever says things like that.

You might be wondering how DH thought FIL already knew. Well, FIL and I have had discussions, but I've always been smart enough not to reveal my atheism. I guess DH assumed that I had already told him at some point. FIL already knew that we didn't go to church, kids weren't baptized, etc. But being atheist is a whole different story, apparently.

ETA: I just reread the email FIL sent my parents, in which he said I was raising my kids as "absolute atheists," lol. What exactly is an "absolute" atheist, I'm wondering. Is it an atheist who believes in abolutely zero gods, as opposed to a regular atheist who might believe in maybe one god? No, that can't be it.


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## 2xy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ImMyKidsMom* 
FIL already knew that we didn't go to church, kids weren't baptized, etc. But being atheist is a whole different story, apparently.

My former FIL was the same way. He told my (now ex) husband, "I didn't raise you to not believe in _anything_!" FWIW, my ex doesn't use the word atheist to describe himself, although it's what he is. He calls himself agnostic (because he feels you can't know). I agree with him on that....but his lack of belief makes him an atheist.

FIL is a non-practicing Catholic. He was raised in the faith and still doesn't eat meat on Fridays, but that's about the only rule he follows. He never pushed religion on his kids, wanting them to figure out what they believe for themselves. He just didn't count on any of his children turning their backs on religion altogether.


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## treehugz

KatWrangler, ImMyKidsMom - I'm slowly coming out of the closet with my (very fundamentalist Christian) MIL too. Before Thanksgiving I told her I had joined a Unitarian Universalist church... I'm still waiting for the fall-out before giving any more hints as to my beliefs.

I could use some help with decoding religious references... Have any of you read/used The Family Virtues Guide by Linda Kavelin Popov? I got it thinking it would be something good for our family that would put the emphasis on virtues and not on beliefs since my dh is Christian and we are always trying to find some middle ground (also why I joined the UU). Well, the book seems really great as far as the parenting philosophy and I love the idea of using the language of virtues... but even though it is non-denominational and pulls from all different religions/cultures, there's a lot of god language that I'm having trouble decoding and getting past... like asking for "god's help" or we were "created by god" or being thankful for "god's bounties". My dd is 22 months, so I know I'm going to have to get more comfortable explaining my views about god and doing a quick decode, but I'm just not there yet. I'd really like to use the book, so does anybody have suggestions for how to work through all the god references?

Perhaps I'll x-post this in the UU thread too...


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## Mama Soltera

I hope it's okay to just jump in here.









I was wondering if any of you have dealt with loss and how you made sense of it? I find it really hard coping with losses and coming to terms with them when it seems like the only people who do are religious and truly believe that the people they lost are right with them and existing in another realm. I guess I might be more agnostic than athiest but still...it just does not make any sense to me (what other people believe) and a lot of it sounds like fairy tales that I'm kind of shocked people believe.

I would really like to hear from other athiest/agnostic people who have experienced losses of people close to them. How did you deal with it?


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## ~PurityLake~

mama Soltera, I posted about the loss of my closest friend on another thread. You can read what I wrote if you search my posts. It <my post> was fairly recent.


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## jaidymama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama Soltera* 
I hope it's okay to just jump in here.









I was wondering if any of you have dealt with loss and how you made sense of it? I find it really hard coping with losses and coming to terms with them when it seems like the only people who do are religious and truly believe that the people they lost are right with them and existing in another realm. I guess I might be more agnostic than athiest but still...it just does not make any sense to me (what other people believe) and a lot of it sounds like fairy tales that I'm kind of shocked people believe.

I would really like to hear from other athiest/agnostic people who have experienced losses of people close to them. How did you deal with it?

I've been to 5 funerals in the last 5 years... 3 of them were in the same year. One was the tragic loss of my 19 year old cousin, others were ailing grandparents. And we just lost a grandma here at Christmas.

For me, I have found I grieve by honoring the person's life. Looking at pictures, tellings stories... remembering and finding what I admired, respected or cherished about the person... And I keep that with me.

Because religion has been used to explain death so often, many people are comforted in believing they will see the person again. I have found I am indifferent to how others believe, and if it comforts my mom to believe that her parents are with God or Jesus... Great. I don't share that same view. I don't focus on where they are now or what happened after they die. I don't have those answers, and don't want to make something up just to pretend they haven't really gone away.

Consider reading a few articles or books even about the grieving process. There are many stages of grief and it cycles through differently for everyone. Even without a specific religious framework to think of death, you will find your own voice through this. Just be open to what is inside of you, and what you're thinking. Explore your ideas and see what you come up with.

I have found saying goodbye to someone is a surreal event. I like ceremonial type things, so appreciated the funeral process as a way of dealing with the grief and as a way of coming together as a family.

Good luck, and my condolences to you.


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## Julie1014

I really don't know where to post this so I'm crashing your thread








I am... atheist, agnostic, secular humanist... I can't define myself yet but I do know that I have a severe and very adverse reaction to organized religion. DH doesn't feel quite as strongly as I do but he does support my feelings. We recently moved to a new state and have searched long and hard for a quality, non-religious daycare for our 3 yo.

On the way home from school on Friday, we were talking about what we'd have for dinner that night and DS said that we should "say something" like he does at school before snack and lunch. I pushed for details and he said that they "sing a prayer" before they eat:
Thank you for things that are sweet
Thank you for good food to eat
Thank you for the birds that sing
Thank you, god, for everything









I'm going to talk to the manager when she returns from vacation tomorrow but, other than that, I really don't know what to do. I don't want to move him again as he's just settling in to this one yet I am really not happy about this discovery. Gah. Any words of wisdom?


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## Peony

Regarding religion in the daycare, it can be a good way to talk about religion with your child. He might not really get it at age 3 but it can be a start! As to what to say, it is still a work in progress for me. We are atheists but DD1 age 7 goes to a christian school due to some special needs and their ability to work with her/us. It is very difficult for me when she comes home asking me questions but gradually I am finding my footing as the school year goes on. I say that everyone believes differently, some people do not believe and others do, etc... It is a hard line to balance but can be done. Good luck!


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## Poddi

Both DH and I are non-religious, DH is more atheist than me. However I don't know if we should talk about this to his very religious family? They're very nice people and we all would like to keep our good relationships. I think they know what we are because we don't go to church and don't support any of their missionary trips.

DH has a favorite little sister who's a missionary and married another missionary. She's a very intelligent girl and we were all surprised by her choices. She wanted to be a doctor as a kid. Sometimes I have the urge to talk to her about what we think but DH told me not to. He's afraid of hurting their feelings. I thought a good honest talk would enhance our understanding for each other. At least I hope to stop them wasting their time praying for us or sending the kids religious books. DH thinks that's bound to make things worse and there's no hope of understanding, as what they believe in are the opposite extreme of what we believe in. I guess I get his point, but I'm still uncomfortable about not ever having "the talk". I still wonder if I should bring it up in a casual chat with them to make it clear, I especially want them to know I didn't convert him, it is not my fault that he's going to hell.









Would you bother to "have the talk"?


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## lmk1

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Poddi* 
Both DH and I are non-religious, DH is more atheist than me. However I don't know if we should talk about this to his very religious family? They're very nice people and we all would like to keep our good relationships. I think they know what we are because we don't go to church and don't support any of their missionary trips.

DH has a favorite little sister who's a missionary and married another missionary. She's a very intelligent girl and we were all surprised by her choices. She wanted to be a doctor as a kid. Sometimes I have the urge to talk to her about what we think but DH told me not to. He's afraid of hurting their feelings. I thought a good honest talk would enhance our understanding for each other. At least I hope to stop them wasting their time praying for us or sending the kids religious books. DH thinks that's bound to make things worse and there's no hope of understanding, as what they believe in are the opposite extreme of what we believe in. I guess I get his point, but I'm still uncomfortable about not ever having "the talk". I still wonder if I should bring it up in a casual chat with them to make it clear, I especially want them to know I didn't convert him, it is not my fault that he's going to hell.









Would you bother to "have the talk"?

I would examine your own feelings of "why" you want to discuss this with them. People who are religious aren't going to stop praying for you because you don't believe in their prayers. People pray for you because they have a desire to do so. As far as the religious books, again, they're doing this from their need, not yours. Why take away their pleasure (they're not trying to harm you!)? You can easily put those books away in a box and never look at them. I sent my nephews a bunch of books on evolution when I heard my brother doubting evolution. I did it because I wanted to, not because he wanted me to.
Honestly, you shouldn't be worried about what they think. It's their place to think what they think and yours to think what you think. They are your husband's family and for better or worse, they are the way they are. Will you really accomplish anything positive by having "the talk" or will you drive a wedge between yourself and them? I'm not saying you should pretend to be something you're not, but why cover yourself in a banner either? Also I think you should respect your dh's opinion on this, as this is his family.


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## Poddi

Thanks! I guess the biggest reason why I feel the need for the talk is DH's sister.

She is a wonderful girl, very smart and hard working, top of the class in every subject. I guess I totally expected her to go to medical school and become a doctor, like she dreamed, until she got influenced by some friends and chose religion. She's been living far away, alone, in place without running water or flush toilet. She's been sick many times. Her health is currently quite poor for a young woman in her 20s. We all worry about her, especially that we heard it's not legal to convert people there. What if she's caught? I know her parents worry, but at least they're religious and believe she's doing a great thing. DH and I just worry.







Of course we don't think what she's doing is really worth putting her health and life at risk. We'd like her to be close to us, in a safe place with health care. Sometimes I really want to ask her if it's worth it? How many people did she manage to save? She's young and smart, maybe someday she'd be willing to open up her mind and try to understand what we believe. I can always hope.


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## lmk1

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Poddi* 
Thanks! I guess the biggest reason why I feel the need for the talk is DH's sister.

She is a wonderful girl, very smart and hard working, top of the class in every subject. I guess I totally expected her to go to medical school and become a doctor, like she dreamed, until she got influenced by some friends and chose religion. She's been living far away, alone, in place without running water or flush toilet. She's been sick many times. Her health is currently quite poor for a young woman in her 20s. We all worry about her, especially that we heard it's not legal to convert people there. What if she's caught? I know her parents worry, but at least they're religious and believe she's doing a great thing. DH and I just worry.







Of course we don't think what she's doing is really worth putting her health and life at risk. We'd like her to be close to us, in a safe place with health care. Sometimes I really want to ask her if it's worth it? How many people did she manage to save? She's young and smart, maybe someday she'd be willing to open up her mind and try to understand what we believe. I can always hope.

I see your concern...but she's an adult, and married. If you keep the lines of communication open and express concern for what you just stated (her health, the precariousness of her situation, her dreams of being a doctor), then maybe she'll open up one day to you and tell you her doubts, etc. It's just hard to express concern without forcing the other person to become defensive and close you off, so you have choose your words carefully and leave religion out of it. People can still be very religious and not be missionaries, risking their health and lives. Out of curiosity, is she in Asia somewhere? I've been to Indonesia, so that came to mind where missionaries wouldn't be welcome and conditions would be that poor.


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## LeilaM

Hi. I'm new to mothering.com, and I was very happy to discover this tribe. Both my husband and I are life-long atheists, and we are expecting our first baby in June. (Actually, it's my first and his second. I have a 20-year-old step-daughter.)

For us, religion is pretty much a nonissue since our immediate families aren't religious, although we do have some very religious extended family. The only problem I'm encountering is Christmas and Easter, but especially Christmas.

Christmas is a fairly big deal for my in-laws and my mother, although they celebrate it in a very nonsecular way. My father really doesn't celebrate it at all, which is a relief. My husband and I have never really celebrated Christmas in our home, but we participate in it at his parents' and my mother's homes.

Now, with the baby on the way, we've started to really examine how we want to handle these holidays with our child. We've come to the conclusion that we are going to continue not celebrating these holidays in our home, but we will participate in our parents' celebrations when we are in their homes.

These are the reasons why I don't want to celebrate religious holidays, and Christmas especially:

Christmas is essentially a Christian holiday, even if it is celebrated in a secular way. As an atheist, I don't see why I would celebrate Christmas any more than I would celebrate Jewish, Muslim, or other religious holidays in a secular way.
Secular Christmas celebrations tend to be overly commercialized and focused on buying gifts, which is not something I want to support.
Many of our Christmas traditions are rooted in preChristian paganism, but following pagan traditions doesn't make any more sense to me since that is just another theistic religion.
Some people, including my mother, say that they see Christmas as more of a solstice celebration than a religious holiday, but that doesn't make sense to me, either. The solstice is on (or near) the 21st, not the 25th, so why celebrate it on the 25th? Also, why should the winter solstice get so much more attention than the summer solstice or the equinoxes? I find the secular greetings of "happy holidays" or "season's greetings" equally odd. What makes this season so much more special than the others?
My husband and I have decided that we want to have some sort of family traditions with our child, so we are going to celebrate both solstices and equinoxes, but we are not going to make them pagan celebrations. We just like the idea of celebrating our natural world. We plan to make up our own traditions with regards to food, decorations, and activities. We might even have a small gift exchange, although nothing on the scale of typical Christmas gift exchanges.

My mom is having a little bit of trouble understanding our decision. She's willing to accept it, but I think she feels sad that our kid is going to miss out on the whole Santa thing. We haven't told my in-laws our plans yet, and I'm not sure how they're going to take it. I feel like we're being fair and compromising, though, in that we're not refusing to visit them on those holidays and celebrate with them to some extent.

Sorry for the novel. I just wanted to share my thoughts on the topic since Christmas recently passed and was a topic of discussion on here. I'm also curious if anybody else here is doing the same thing that we're doing when it comes to celebrating holidays.

As for sneezing, I've never understood why it's necessary to say anything at all when somebody sneezes. If I do say anything, I say "gesundheit", but even that feels odd and seems fairly pointless to me.

I loved Religulous. I'm currently reading The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, and I highly recommend it.


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## ~PurityLake~

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LeilaM* 
Hi. I'm new to mothering.com, and I was very happy to discover this tribe.

As for sneezing, I've never understood why it's necessary to say anything at all when somebody sneezes. If I do say anything, I say "gesundheit", but even that feels odd and seems fairly pointless to me.

I loved Religulous. I'm currently reading The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, and I highly recommend it.

Welcome LeilaM.

As for sneezing, the translation of Gesundheit or Salud, simply means to your health, or something like that, which simply means you hope that person's sneeze is not indicative of an illness. I think that's nice. My girls say gezundheit when they sneeze because they copy what I say. I say it because I want to override what other people say. My mother and strangers have said Bless You or God Bless You. One time one of my daughters said that and I just looked at her and said, what does that mean? She said, I don't know. I said, I thought we said gezundheit because it means I hope you're not sick. And that was the end of that.


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## LeilaM

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
As for sneezing, the translation of Gesundheit or Salud, simply means to your health, or something like that, which simply means you hope that person's sneeze is not indicative of an illness. I think that's nice.

Sure. I'm a German speaker, so I understand what "gesundheit" means, and I don't have a big problem with people saying it. If they want to say it, that's fine. I've done so myself on many occasions. It still doesn't make a lot of sense to me, though. I've never heard anybody say anything like that when somebody coughs or blows their nose, so why say it when somebody sneezes? It sometimes makes me feel a bit awkward when I sneeze and somebody says something like that. I'd feel more comfortable if people would just let it pass without comment.

I don't think it's a big issue, though. I just wanted to throw in my two bits since it has come up several times on this thread.


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## HaikuMommy

Hi, all! I am happy to find this tribe. I like to say I'm agnostic, but I am secretly atheist. I have family members who sometimes want to pray with me, talk to me about my eternal soul, and give me VeggieTales DVDs for my 18-month-old. Funny thing is, I used to go to church 4 times a week, I've read the Bible cover-to-cover, etc. I just no longer have faith. I feel like I've woken up. In some ways I wish I still believed -- it was easier! But it feels fake to me. Anyway... hi!


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## ~PurityLake~

Hello HaikuMommy


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## Heinleinesque

When I sneeze, I say, "Excuse me!" which prompts some funny looks, but if anyone blesses me, I say "Thank you."
I don't say anything when another person sneezes, unless it is "Oh no, I hope you're not getting sick!"


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## Momma Heathen

It's so nice to find this thread! I'll be working my way through ALL of the pages!


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## Momma Heathen

:-o


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## Momma Heathen

Ok. So there's no way I'll be getting through ALL of these pages!!

Some quick snips from me:

We say Gesundheit (sp?) when someone sneezes. Just dislike saying, or hearing, "bless you."

We are atheist, and proud.














My ex husband has suddenly found xtianity after a lifetime of atheism (because his new GF is a supposed xtian) so we're having some FOC battles about that. If you want details, please feel free to ask!

My husband is one-third of the podcast Reasonable Doubts (Your Skeptics Guide to Religion) and we recently put up a parenting episode. I'm really proud of it.







If you haven't heard it before, I, of course, highly recommend it!


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## uk2usa

My husband and I are atheists/secular humanists. I think I brought out his atheism. Our humanist group is not very active, but has lots of potential. After DS is born, I will become a lot more active and plan a lot more activities and meet-ups for the humanist family network.


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## marinak1977

Another secular humanist here - and proud of it. My DH comes from a very conservative family of southern baptists so we have had to dodge questions about our church attendance from time to time. Thankfully the issue of DS's baptism hasn't come up yet (we're not doing it)

As for sneezes I use russian "Bud' Zdorov" which means be healthy - a perfectly appropriate thing to say to someone sneezing.


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## haleyelianasmom

Hello everyone. I guess my husband and I might fall into the agnostic category since we are non religious and I feel like we don't REALLY know anything, though there are a lot of theories out there. I almost feel bad calling myself athiest/agnostic because, as many of you probably know, it has been stigmatized big time.

Anyways, I don't mind my daughter learning about the world religions as long as they are presented as theories and she feels free to choose if/what she wants to. I also don't mind going to support family and friends when they have church baptisms/1st communions/etc. We had dd baptized, etc. Well, my daughter went with my parents to their Evangelical church before Christmas. (Yes, we still celebrate holidays). The other day, she starts asking if god is dead like jesus and we're like "um... well, there are many definitions of god" etc. And she started yelling at us that god was some really tall guy and "YOU don't know because YOU don't go to church! the little girl at church said god is watching me!" yeah, we were pretty shocked. So now I'm wondering if we should join up with a UU church (aren't they like agnostics with mass?) or some sort of secular humanist meetup or something so she can have influence outside of us that gives her varying views on spirituality because all she hears from grandma and grandpa is about how her fish went to heaven when it died and all that.

So what would you do? I don't mind people being open with their faith, but I want her to know there are several theories and no right answer. And for the record, she's 4.5 and homeschooled (unschooled) so she doesn't get anything from teachers/peers and our friends are of varying religious beliefs, but it generally doesn't come up.


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## Susana

I don't mean to sound whiny, but I'm watching all the neighbors outside on this beautiful day celebrating easter with their extended families and I am feeling quite sorry for myself since I'm missing my parents who died 2 years ago and i don't talk to my sister anymore and my dh's family quit asking us to religious celebrations.

I'm proud to be an atheist and could never be anything else, but days like today get me down a little. I'm going to get up and start being productive (harder on days like this when I miss my parents a lot) which will help. My dh and ds are golfing. My dd and I'll get into something when she wakes.

Can anyone relate? I just feel kinda weird.


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## Heinleinesque

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Susana* 
Can anyone relate? I just feel kinda weird.

Absolutely. I celebrate Easter as a secular holiday - a sort of "yay, spring-time fecundity" celebration. That's how it started, anyway, before it got co-opted by organized religion.


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## voicegrrl

I agree about Easter, I love to celebrate my pagan roots and enjoy the fertility of the season. We were driving around Sunday and watching everyone dressed in their finest going into church and I was a little jealous of the fellowship of what that means but then I remembered everything else it means and was comforted by my choice. No matter what people believe you're always giving up something but hopefully gaining something in return.

On another note, I had a frustrating conversation with my Dad the other day. I don't think I've ever outright told him I'm an atheist but I've always tried to make it clear that I'm not christian. He called and could tell something was wrong. I'd had an early miscarriage but had no intention of telling him because he's so opposed to me having more children. He's really just opposed to anyone having more children not just me. So in a weak moment I told him what had happened and he says maybe it's god's way of telling me I need to do something to prevent that from happening. Meaning get fixed so I don't get knocked up. I was shocked but not really because that's just how he is. It's frustrating that he uses religion to say how he feels. It's one thing if he just thinks its a bad idea for me to have kids but to say its god saying that is unreal. Unfortunately I'm not very good at confronting him. All I said was that we had actually decided to try again and left it at that. He has this horrible life and he says that its all gods plan. Its just really difficult to believe what I do and to hear him use that as an excuse for everything. It seems like every conversation we have is about how he's not in control and god is. I try to just mind my own business but man is it hard. Luckily we live 10 hours away from each other and usually only see each other about twice a year.


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## Bonnenuit

Hey everyone! Nice to see MDC has an antheist agnostic community!

My husband and I are a(g)theists and it's nice to see other attachment parents who are also!

I have two girls, a two year old and 4 month old


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## newbie_mary

Does anyone know anything about this book?
http://www.uuabookstore.org/productdetails.cfm?PC=612

I'm looking for a book to start talking with my 4 year old about religions.


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## MyFullHouse

Yay!

I am new, and I have not read through the entire thread.









Dh and I are both atheists, after being raised in different protestant denominations. I've been an atheist since age 12/13. Dh is a relative newbie (well after we were married).

We say "Bless you", celebrate commercial Christmas and Easter, and study the history of (all) religion.

People are often shocked when they find out, considering we have multiple children, homeschool, and focus on having a family-centered, somewhat conservative lifestyle. It confuses them.









I'm also an Assistant Parenting Community Coordinator for Foundation Beyond Belief. We're in the process of organizing groups nationwide for freethinking parents to support each other IRL and online. If anyone is interested, you can Google or drop me a PM!


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## Swinginuttersgrrl

Hi! I'm new and I'm not 100% sure that this "tribe" is really for me (although hubby is pretty firmly agnostic/atheist, I swing more to the agnostic/spiritual-but-in-my-own-way kinda deal) however after reading through many of the older posts I'm struck with the thought that it might be good for me to seek some answers from those raising their children secularly - since I am DEFINITELY all about that, I'm of the belief that if you are going to have faith it should be something you come to in your own time, not something that should be dictated to you, and have no desire to raise my children with my own beliefs or anyone else's... If that made sense to anyone but me, then here is my predicament:
Both of our families are strongly christian - my father's wife and child are firmly catholic, my mother is a non-practicing but still strongly believing lutheran, my extended family on my father's side is extremely devout but of various persuasions, his mother is non-practicing catholic claiming buddhist, but she still clings to many of the dogmas that were ingrained in her early on, and his grandmother is evangelical and _her_ brother is a minister, our fathers are the only two in what seems like almost all of our families that adhere to live-and-let-live in that they have their beliefs but are not interested in forcing them on anyone... I'm not concerned with holidays or anyone expecting us to go to church, but I'm TERRIFIED that some group of the family is going to try to have our baby christened without our consent. I hope against hope that they wouldn't, so far the only one who knows that we aren't doing it is my mother and she chewed my head off about it being a "necessary precaution" regardless of what I believe in, which is what started my worry.
Has anyone else had this issue with family? We don't see most of them on a frequent enough basis for me to be worried about them otherwise forcing religion on the child, but I would like to think that we can safely have family babysit for us without having our child recognized by god behind our backs. Is there anything we can do but ask that they do not do this or restrict their time alone with the expected? Any input will be greatly appreciated as I feel like this issue is one of the few anxieties I have about becoming a mother!
Thanks all! Much love!
~Kara


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## MyFullHouse

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Swinginuttersgrrl* 
I'm not concerned with holidays or anyone expecting us to go to church, but I'm TERRIFIED that some group of the family is going to try to have our baby christened without our consent. I hope against hope that they wouldn't, so far the only one who knows that we aren't doing it is my mother and she chewed my head off about it being a "necessary precaution" regardless of what I believe in, which is what started my worry.
Has anyone else had this issue with family? We don't see most of them on a frequent enough basis for me to be worried about them otherwise forcing religion on the child, but I would like to think that we can safely have family babysit for us without having our child recognized by god behind our backs. Is there anything we can do but ask that they do not do this or restrict their time alone with the expected? Any input will be greatly appreciated as I feel like this issue is one of the few anxieties I have about becoming a mother!
Thanks all! Much love!
~Kara

My mother (a non-practicing Lutheran) was devastated when I "declined" to have my kids baptized "as a precaution". She's still upset to this day, but she backed off when I pointed out that baptism involves a promise to raise a child in a religion, and wouldn't lying about that, right there in church, be pretty sacrilegious?

Not sure if that will help you, but I thought I'd throw it out there!


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## outlier

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Swinginuttersgrrl* 
I'm not concerned with holidays or anyone expecting us to go to church, but I'm TERRIFIED that some group of the family is going to try to have our baby christened without our consent.

I may be in the minority here, but I tend to think that if some family members feel that strongly about it, I really don't care if they have my baby baptized with or without my knowledge. A few splashes of water on the head aren't a big deal and won't mean anything to me or the baby, so what does it hurt if it buys some peace.







My only conditions would be that it has to happen while he/she is a baby (no forced vow-taking), dh and I will have no part of it (again, no forced vow-taking), and no godparents.

I'm sure I'll be facing this situation by the end of the year since I'm pregnant with our first. I intend to be truthful about our wish not to do a baptism, including with dh's very religious family, but I won't fight it if it looks like someone's going to have a stroke over it. Elderly religious relatives certainly won't understand and it's just not worth the resulting tension. I tend to see it as a silly little tradition that some people participate in and some don't, like wishing on birthday candles or doing Easter egg hunts. As long as no one's hurt and it's free, I don't care.


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## Swinginuttersgrrl

I greatly appreciate the responses, and to be honest, if it were just a matter of putting some folks' mind at rest then it might not be such an issue, but I personally feel very strongly opposed to the practice, and my husband just thinks it is plain old silliness, most of the issue boils down to the fact that we are the parents and should be able to decide this, decide to let our child make their own choice later, not choose for them something that we ourselves didn't even choose. I agree wholeheartedly that it does seem a bit wrong to say in a church in front of a host believers that a child will be taught and raised a certain way only to leave and pretend we didn't just do that. It feels to me like it wouldn't just be lying to a congregation and to family but also to ourselves and to the child (despite the fact that they'd be too young to know any better). I wish there was a way of making it make sense to the family that wants it why exactly we don't, among other things that I refuse to believe that my child is born in sin, it just doesn't sit well with me. I guess explaining that it would just be a lie might be the best course of action at this point. Thanks for the input!


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## no5no5

Thankfully my family is not religious. I can't imagine what my response would be if they wanted to use my child as a prop in a religious ceremony. It wouldn't be pretty, that's for sure.

For us, a parallel is diet. We are vegetarians, and we are raising DD vegetarian. My own sister thinks that we are wrong to do that, and has joked about sneaking DD meat. For that reason, they simply won't be left alone together. It's sad, but that's how it's got to be. The rest of the family understands this very well, and though they may disagree with our choices they put their feelings aside because they know that our approval is necessary for them to have a continued relationship with DD.


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## LeslieB

I think I'll join this thread, if I can keep up with the posts!








I've been an atheist as long as I can remember. My husband won't label himself, but he doesn't believe in God or anything of the sort, either.
We currently live in the southeast on a military base, so you can imagine that we are surrounded by deeply religious people. I'm planning to homeschool, but there isn't a single homeschool group here that isn't religious based. Very frustrating. We'll be leaving the military in about a year, though, so hopefully, we can find a place to live that more suits our needs.
Not much else to add, but hopefully, I can join in the discussion as the thread progresses.


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## SimplyRochelle

I'd love to join in too. My husband and I are both athiests living in the south. Our families don't accept the fact that we don't believe in god and frequently refer to it as a "stage" we're going through. We are looking at some couples counseling right now because infertility and loss has had a drastic effect on our relationship but we're really struggling to find someone that won't be giving us bible verses along with their advice. We don't really have very many friends in this area and the ones we do have are very, very religious so they just figure we struggle with conceiving and coping because we lack faith in our relationship. I just can't wait to move to a more diverse area. We were very, very, very excited to see billboards going up that say "Are you good without God? Millions are." and we are hoping to try and get involved with the freethinkers organization in the area.

Do any of you ladies find a sense of community through non-faith based groups?


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## Lit Chick

Re: baptism

I looked into it when I was preggers with #1, because I thought my grandmother would have a fit if he was not baptized. In the Catholic church at least, it's not even an option if the guardians are not memebers of the church. So, no worries about a forced baptism, at least with that faith. Now, some priest might _bless_ the baby - but as far as real vows - nope.

Most of the people I chatted with were nasty, horrified that I was (very) lapsed. But one guy was actually quite nice, and told me that if my family was truly worried then to just refer to some papal letter or something (feel free to google) that specifically states that unbaptized babies are just fine and won't go to hell just because their parent's dropped the ball. I did just that with my grandma, and if she's still bothered I have not heard about it.


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## no5no5

Hi Rochelle.









I am also (temporarily, thank goodness) in South. I am in a local freethinker's organization, and it's nice to get the emails now & then, but I've never met them IRL. In addition to being atheist, I'm also very AP, hugely liberal, strictly vegetarian, and a little bit punk rock. Oh, and I'm a huge nerd. I've made a few good friends, but for the most part I've just given up hope of finding a community of like-minded people.







Plus, from the emails I read, it seems like the freethinker's group is mostly older men...which is fine, but not really what I'm looking for.


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## zarasmom07

I would love to join this group! My husband and I are atheist. he is in the Air Force adn right now, we are stationed in Texas, in a city that ranks no.2 in the country for the most churches per capita! We tried to make friends with a few of his co-workers who have kids, but the inevitable "where do you go to church?" question comes up, and then they look at us like we're aliens. Can't wait until we move!


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## laurenmck

Hi, nice to meet everyone! I am agnostic, my husband is an "extremely bad Catholic" with quite agnostic tendencies, and my 10 Y/O daughter is a "straight up athiest" according to her. LOL! Haven't read through the whole thread but I'm hoping the religious crowd isn't using it for debates, I'm so tired of them...


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## laurenmck

I feel for those of you in the south, we will be moving to Central Pennsylvania shortly...there is a little poem about PA, "Pittsburgh to the West, Philadelpha to the East, and Alabama in the middle" and it is so true. I started posting on a community message board in our new town as a way to get to know people, and for my efforts I've made about 50 enemies. Lesson learned - be careful who you talk about not going to church with


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## no5no5

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laurenmck* 
Haven't read through the whole thread but I'm hoping the religious crowd isn't using it for debates, I'm so tired of them...

Oh, no, not at all. On MDC we all try to be respectful and friendly, despite our many differences of opinion.


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## She-wolf

Hi, I'm new to this thread. I'm an atheist, and always have been. I'm an active member of a Humanist association here in Norway. Norway is fairly secular, but I keep experiencing that my Christian inlaws (in spite of being loving and liberal people) treat my lifestance as just an absense of religion, as if it were a gaping hole it doesn't really matter if they put a bit of their religious traditions into.

Next year we're moving to the US, and I must admit I'm a bit worried when I read about the role religion plays in American society.


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## outlier

Hi She-wolf! I'm sure you'll find the religious influence here is just one of many annoying things about living in the US.







Some places are much more religious than others though, and even in very religious areas you may be able to continue your activities with a humanist organization. My husband and I are living in a pretty conservative area right now, but even then we've found a good group of like-minded people to commiserate with. I try to see the rampant religiosity around here as a fascinating cultural phenomenon that keeps life interesting if nothing else.


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## tigerhearted

Hi everyone! New here... I'm agnostic (spiritual but happily noncommital), and my hubby has a beautifully complicated spirituality (I like to call him a liberal closet Christian lol! He retains a fundamental spiritually while being so jaded about Christianity and organized religion, that I was convinced that he was agnostic or atheist too for the first 6 months of our relationship! lol!). We are casually ttc starting this month.

We're thinking about starting to attend a local Unitarian congregation that my friend from high school goes to...she says it is a great place to come together and learn about and respect different spiritualities, which sounds great to me. Has/does anyone else attend UU as a happy and content agnostic?


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## sammymama

Hi All,

I'm new to MDC and a few nights ago posted about raising kids as atheists... somehow I missed this tribe or maybe it just got re-posted? Anyhow, it's really nice to see so many mamas on here!

I am in the midst of an inner debate... my DH and I are both atheist and our daughter is now 10 mos. My mom is Catholic (a eucharist minister) and she knows that we are atheist and will not be raising our daughter under any organized religion. She recently "slipped" (still not sure if it really was an accident that she told me) and told me that on the night our daughter was born, my mom baptized her.

I have been researching stuff online, trying to determine if the sacrament is actually "valid" and don't really have any solid answer yet...

The other part is, should I address this with my mom? DH pointed out (quite graciously) that it doesn't really mean anything to us and is just a prayer for her - but the thing that I am festering over is that my mom *knew* this would be against our wishes. I don't want to set a precedent by not saying anything now, and having more religion-related stuff like this come up with my daughter down the line as she gets older. (Incidentally, this kills me b/c my mom had so many issues with her own inlaws, who were Born Again, and always taking me aside and talking to me about it against her wishes. Sigh.)

Thoughts, anyone? Many thanks in advance!


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## FarrenSquare

Hi! I'm new to htis tribe, looking for some like minded people in all this rabble - its always nice to find!

Baby daddy identifies hardcore with atheism and I identify as strong agnostic (ie: no one will ever know so who cares). We are both worried about his parent's response to our first baby being born as she has already started talking about a christining or whatever... I don't even know what that is! Is it different from a baptism, even? Either way, it seems weird to us as they don't even go to church themselves but are fairly lazy-christian russian orthadox. As far as my side of the family, my mom seems pretty content thinking that I don't technically disbelieve therefore I'm not going to hell... lol!!

Sammymama - I wouldn't, personally, make too much of a big deal about your mom's prayer, but I would ask her never to do anything like that again. If she respects you, she will respect your choices, and if she doesn't respect you, then she doesn't deserve your respect. Honestly, though, if she is religious and prays consistently... chances are she will pray for your daughter her entire life. Prayers don't seem to harm - it is filling little one's head with statements that contradict your own that I will be worried about mostly.


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## Mama Soltera

I need some input from some athiest moms. I just signed my 12 year old for private music lessons. The guy is really nice but he gave us a CD so we can hear his music. It is part of a pro-life CD and it's Christian music! I didn't realize until after he was gone. This is kind of awkward for me. I don't want someone influencing my kid like that and I don't want to listen to it and don't want my kid to listen to it either. I am strongly pro-choice. It just feels very uncomfortable. I don't want to offend him. What would you do?


----------



## EFmom

My 12 year old is a musician (violinist). If your kid is into classical music at all, I think you have to accept that much good classical music is going to be religious in nature. It genuinely makes me want to gag half the time, but the other half I can ignore and get into the sounds.

We have lots of conversations about why so much of the stuff she learns in her public school orchestra groups is religious in nature, mostly having to do with the reach, power and control of the catholic church. She's an atheist, too, and it bugs her, but she can understand from a historical point.

The pro-life stuff is a different ball of wax. For me it would be a non-starter. I haven't encountered it, but we'd find a different teacher ASAP. He's clearly not worried about offending you if he'd hand out such an inappropriate CD.

I might try to have a conversation and explain that you are willing to try him as an instructor providing religion and his personal beliefs never come up again, but I'd watch him like a hawk.


----------



## EFmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sammymama* 

I am in the midst of an inner debate... my DH and I are both atheist and our daughter is now 10 mos. My mom is Catholic (a eucharist minister) and she knows that we are atheist and will not be raising our daughter under any organized religion. She recently "slipped" (still not sure if it really was an accident that she told me) and told me that on the night our daughter was born, my mom baptized her.

I have been researching stuff online, trying to determine if the sacrament is actually "valid" and don't really have any solid answer yet...

The other part is, should I address this with my mom? DH pointed out (quite graciously) that it doesn't really mean anything to us and is just a prayer for her - but the thing that I am festering over is that my mom *knew* this would be against our wishes. I don't want to set a precedent by not saying anything now, and having more religion-related stuff like this come up with my daughter down the line as she gets older. (Incidentally, this kills me b/c my mom had so many issues with her own inlaws, who were Born Again, and always taking me aside and talking to me about it against her wishes. Sigh.)

Thoughts, anyone? Many thanks in advance!

My parents are catholic and did the same thing to my child. There's no such thing as a "valid sacrament" in my book--it's all make believe, so I'm not worried that my kid is going to actually be catholic or something.

But we absolutely did address it. To me, it's breathtakingly inappropriate. My mother had the opportunity to force her religion down my throat for more than 18 years. She does not have the right to do it to my children, and I don't care what her motivation might be.

I didn't mince words. Her feelings were hurt, but she knew what she was doing was underhanded, and it didn't happen again.


----------



## AmyB736

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama Soltera* 
I need some input from some athiest moms. I just signed my 12 year old for private music lessons. The guy is really nice but he gave us a CD so we can hear his music. It is part of a pro-life CD and it's Christian music! I didn't realize until after he was gone. This is kind of awkward for me. I don't want someone influencing my kid like that and I don't want to listen to it and don't want my kid to listen to it either. I am strongly pro-choice. It just feels very uncomfortable. I don't want to offend him. What would you do?

Does his CD have anythig to do with him teaching music to your child or is he just a musician that is trying to promote his music by handing out his CD. It seems harmless, I'm sure he's proud of himself and he'll probably ask what you thought of it, I would just be polite and say it has a nice sound. If he wants more just tell him you don't share the same views. It doesn't have to amount to any more than that. It's not something I would change music teachers over. I would even feel comfortable asking and telling him "We are not Christian and are pro-choice, are you able to teach my kid music without using overly religious music or music that is pro-life?" BTW, I can't even think of how pro-life music would sound, LOL!


----------



## Mama Soltera

lol! I guess it's all in the lyrics.







Thanks for the input, fellow moms.


----------



## EFmom

It's funny that the religious music came up.

I enrolled dd12 in a two week summer music day camp at a local catholic college. This is her second week. For the most part, she's liking it a great deal. It was expensive.

They had a concert last Friday after the first week. The kids performed amazingly well, but almost every song was extremely religious. The faculty gave lengthy introductions to the pieces that were quite detailed about the religious message in the music. Today, my kid complained to me that the music was too religious and made her uncomfortable.

As I mentioned before, I understand that religion is pretty well unavoidable in classical music, but many of these pieces aren't classical.

I'm a little annoyed. While I realize the college is catholic, nowhere in any description of the camp was religion mentioned. If it was, I would have passed on it. It was music camp, and the excellence of the instruction was stressed. If I sent her to VBS, I'd expect she'd get catholicism shoved down her throat, but I really am taken aback by this.

I'm sure they will have a feedback form. Would you all say something?


----------



## Mama Soltera

I just thought I should clarify this music would qualify more as "xtian rock" than religious music. Not that I'm really an expert on this stuff. lol

To EFmom, I would mention it in the feedback that their camp description should clarify that "faith" is part of package. Maybe they just assume people will know that since it's a Catholic school.


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## SubliminalDarkness

Hi everyone! Thought I'd join you all. My DH and I are agnostic, with me leaning towards atheism more strongly than my DH, but we're both quite anti-religion. DH was raised Muslim, I was raised LDS. Both our families are still very religious. It makes for QUITE a fun time, lemme tell ya!


----------



## EFmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama Soltera* 
I just thought I should clarify this music would qualify more as "xtian rock" than religious music. Not that I'm really an expert on this stuff. lol

To EFmom, I would mention it in the feedback that their camp description should clarify that "faith" is part of package. Maybe they just assume people will know that since it's a Catholic school.

The kids aren't required to profess any kind of faith, and I know for a fact that some of the other kids are Jewish and Buddhist.

In prior years, the camp has been wind instruments only and this is their first year with a much larger enrollment including strings and chorus. But still, I find it hard to believe nobody's raised it as an issue before.


----------



## EFmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SubliminalDarkness* 
Hi everyone! Thought I'd join you all. My DH and I are agnostic, with me leaning towards atheism more strongly than my DH, but we're both quite anti-religion. DH was raised Muslim, I was raised LDS. Both our families are still very religious. It makes for QUITE a fun time, lemme tell ya!

Ooohh, that does sound like you guys must have had some fun family discussions!


----------



## Mama Soltera

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom* 
The kids aren't required to profess any kind of faith, and I know for a fact that some of the other kids are Jewish and Buddhist.

In prior years, the camp has been wind instruments only and this is their first year with a much larger enrollment including strings and chorus. But still, I find it hard to believe nobody's raised it as an issue before.

I wonder if you should check in with the other non-catholic families and see if they are feeling the same way. They must be. Maybe together you can all bring it to the school's attention? That would really frustrate me.


----------



## SubliminalDarkness

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom* 
Ooohh, that does sound like you guys must have had some fun family discussions!

There are a lot of very strong opinions


----------



## TabithaB

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
The book called "Parenting Beyond Belief" touches on this really well! I remember when my dd snuggled up and said the same thing. I think it's developmental, when they really 'get it' that life isn't forever.

Anyways, we talked about what happens to everything when it dies. The body stops working and the earth uses it to make more life.

Hope that helps









Good answer. I like that. I just actually bought that book off of Amazon to take on vacation with me. Looking forward to reading it.


----------



## tmw1213

Hi, I'm new to the board and I hope I'm posting this properly.

My neighbors have been very kind and generous lately, having the kids over, taking them to a museum, etc. It turns out now that they are very interested in having my children join their church (non-denominational and literal). I'm very uncomfortable with the situation. I was not brought up in an organized religion, and I now consider myself a humanist.

My husband is all for it, as he belonged to a similar church before we met and every once in a while becomes fearful that something bad will happen to the children if they are not taught about Jesus and the Bible. (What if it's real? he says frequently, meaning 'bad supernatural things will happen')

My husband is a very outgoing, strong personality, and I am an extremely socially anxious introvert. He knows that I am against the kids joining this type of organization, but just says I'm wrong. I feel powerless. I have many acquaintances (not close friends though) who belong to the UU congregation, but my social anxiety holds me back so badly that I can't bring myself to take the kids to visit there.

What can I do? One of my children has recently become very interested in Greek/Roman mythology, and I am really encouraging that interest. We had a wonderful conversation this weekend about what myths are and how every culture in the world has these stories.

I'm just so angry with myself that I've never done anything about my social anxiety, and now it is vital that I do something about it so that I can speak out.


----------



## tug

Quote:


Originally Posted by *no5no5* 
I am also (temporarily, thank goodness) in South. I am in a local freethinker's organization, and it's nice to get the emails now & then, but I've never met them IRL. In addition to being atheist, I'm also very AP, hugely liberal, strictly vegetarian, and a little bit punk rock. Oh, and I'm a huge nerd. I've made a few good friends, but for the most part I've just given up hope of finding a community of like-minded people.







Plus, from the emails I read, it seems like the freethinker's group is mostly older men...which is fine, but not really what I'm looking for.

same here for all of this (except the temporary part)! but it is lonely, isn't it? in some ways, this city is really liberal, but there are large catholic and fundamentalist populations as well, so it's pretty common to be wished "a blessed day" (which i find really annoying, am i just a cranky person?).

how do other people find a sense of community in all of this (particularly given that the local humanist group is largely older men)?


----------



## no5no5

Hi tmw! Welcome.









I have social anxiety myself, so I get where you're coming from. You're in a tough spot, though, since your DH isn't on the same page as you in this. It sounds like counseling might be really helpful for you. Marriage is really about hearing each other and working together, and it sounds like you're both just talking past each other in this.







Have you talked to your DH in private about your feelings? Perhaps he might be willing to visit the UU church with you.


----------



## tmw1213

Quote:


Originally Posted by *no5no5* 
Hi tmw! Welcome.









I have social anxiety myself, so I get where you're coming from. You're in a tough spot, though, since your DH isn't on the same page as you in this. It sounds like counseling might be really helpful for you. Marriage is really about hearing each other and working together, and it sounds like you're both just talking past each other in this.







Have you talked to your DH in private about your feelings? Perhaps he might be willing to visit the UU church with you.


The weird thing about this situation is that it just rears its head every once in a while. He has a history of getting all gung-ho about things and then dropping them abruptly. I think this church he used to belong to really, really had a strong influence on him, and he just became wired that way and won't let go of it. He seems to think that the word 'non-denominational' means 'just a normal church'. I don't even know where that came from. His entire family is Lutheran. He has all the arguments down and has an answer for everything. It's not like he's this way all the time. Usually he is very laid-back and easygoing. But when this sort of thing comes up it's like a switch goes on. So I've just learned to keep quiet and try to come up with ways to handle the situation more subtly rather than flying into a rage every time the subject comes up. I've been reading 'Parenting Beyond Belief' and it is giving me some ideas.


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## greenmulberry

Howdy.

I am atheist, husband is as well. We were both raised non religious so it is really a non issue in our families until you get out into extended family.

Honestly I rarely ever think about my status as an atheist. It just seems normal and right to me.

I will say I celebrate any holiday that is fun







or has good food.







As long as people understand I am there for the party and I don't have to act like I am praying or anything.

I don't say anything for sneezes, and it bugs me when people do. I have allergies so I sneeze all the time, and when someone blesses me or whatever, I just roll my eyes in silent annoyance that my sneeze needs to be pointed out even more than the huge ACHOO did.

We have a LO on the way, so I don't know how I am going to handle teaching them about religion, but I am not too worried about it. I didn't have any kind of formal education and I navigated just fine, even living in the south for part of my childhood!


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## buttercup784ever

DH and I are both atheists. We're raising our kids to choose for themselves. They can go to some churches and church activities with friends if they want. They go to church with MIL when we visit. I don't want it to seem like 'forbidden fruit' to them.









My IL's consider themselves charismatic non-denominationalists. When we got married my MIL told DH that we were 'unequally yoked' because he was Christian and I wasn't. Of course, he was a Christian because she wanted him to be, not because he actually was one.

Just thought I'd share a couple of little anecdotes...
My FIL constantly reminds us that we don't believe in prayer. Meaning in every conversation he says something like, "well I WOULD pray for you, but I know you don't believe in that". My husband was up for a raise at work and his dad called before the meeting. DH starts to tell him about what's about to go on, and FIL says, " Are you asking me to pray for you?" sarcastically. DH said, "Yes, I'll take what I can get". We laughed later wondering if he got the promotion through all his hard work or if it was FIL's sarcastic prayer that did it.

Another prayer story. Our dog escaped our yard, and we couldn't find him for 3 days. We were devastated. I had posted on Facebook about it, so all our family knew he was missing. Of course, MIL calls and offers to pray for him to come home. Well long story short, we found out where the dog was from a boy on the bus when my kids went back to school. The next time the in-laws came to visit they were playing with the kids and dog, and we're telling them about how we found him. "It sounds like a miracle to me" MIL says and cuts a sideways glance at FIL, both of them smirking.

It's annoying that they live 9 hours away from us. We hear from them about once a month, and yet they take a sort of ownership of our lives. As if their prayers are what's making good things happen for us. When it's something lucky, like finding our dog, it's not such a big deal. But when it comes to passing classes, getting raises and promotions, etc. it seems like they are taking credit for stuff that has absolutely NOTHING to do with them.


----------



## meemee

i posted a question in the Single Parenting forum. would you please take a look and post out there if you so wish.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1254468

thanks


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## 2xy

Buttercup, since your IL's can work miracles, why don't you ask them to pray to stop the war in the Middle East? Or they can pray for the starving in Africa or something. Why are they wasting their powers on simple things like lost dogs and promotions?


----------



## philomom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
Buttercup, since your IL's can work miracles, why don't you ask them to pray to stop the war in the Middle East? Or they can pray for the starving in Africa or something. Why are they wasting their powers on simple things like lost dogs and promotions?










Love it!


----------



## Theoretica




----------



## lilmamabrown

I'm here too. Just wrote a long post but my 3 yr old decided to attack the computer so its gone.







I'll repost later, glad to find a thread like this though!!


----------



## treehugz

Anybody have any fun alternate non-religious lyrics for "Jesus loves me" that I can teach to my 2-yr old? After dd spent an afternoon with her cousins, she was singing it on the car-ride home.







I guess I could get creative and just make something up, but I thought I'd check in here before recreating the wheel.


----------



## earthworm

Hello, everyone!
I'm trying my best to make it here in GA.
I recently went to a local Freethinkers group dinner and it was pretty nice. The biggest relief was meeting other liberal folk.
Like a lot of you, I feel so isolated down here. Most of those that belong to the Freethinkers group are 50+. The closest UU church is about an hour away and my husband works Sundays anyway.
We had the big, "Please don't proselytize to our children!" talk with the in-laws (Southern Baptist) not too long ago--after our 3 year old informed us that God made the flowers. At first it went terribly, but I guess that was a misunderstanding. They thought we were telling them to denounce their religion??? It was a mess. We came to an agreement, supposedly. It was one of those conversations where we just had to settle with them ending it by telling us they are confident we will find the truth (the Truth!) if we are looking, blahblah.
It's come up quite a few times since then. I think my MIL has had to gradually accept the fact that her "baby" does not believe in her god. And that means he is going to Hell, if she holds him to the same standards as everyone else. I do feel for her. That has to be incredibly hard.


----------



## Mama Soltera

Can someone educate me about what UU churches are exactly? I am just really surprised that an athiest or agnostic would go to a church of any kind so I think I must be missing something because a couple of people have posted that they go to those.


----------



## MrsMcC

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pajamajes* 
I'm interested in seeing how other people deal with the Atheist life, so to speak, especially in the "buy-bull" belt.

Buy-bull belt!!! I've lived in the South most of my life, and have never seen that- it made me laugh out loud. Thank you!! Glad I found this thread/tribe. My DH's family and mine are both pretty religious, but not oppressive about it. I was raised as Christian, but haven't been for quite some time, and I know both families are going to want to do the good work on her little brain. I'm a little nervous about the pressure as our daughter grows up, with the conflict in theories of life. It's late, but I'll see you all around.


----------



## philomom

Honestly, the way we finally dealt with the Bible belt was to move away.


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## Maine Mama Doula

Subbing. I was not raised as any religion and having kids has made me think through this a lot. I went to a UU church once or twice...a church is a church. Not interested. Finally determined we are agnostic. Atheist seems to be such a harsh term. I don't BELIEVE in anything. I like facts.







So here I am.


----------



## 2xy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maine Mama Doula* 
Finally determined we are agnostic. Atheist seems to be such a harsh term. I don't BELIEVE in anything. I like facts.







So here I am.

I'm sort of a stickler for the meanings of these two words.

Agnostic means "without knowledge." Agnostics recognize that nobody can know whether or not gods exist.

Atheist means "without belief." Atheists do not believe that gods exist.

I think "atheist" only seems harsh because people have vilified atheists for eons. It's really not a dirty word; I promise.


----------



## Mama Soltera

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama Soltera* 
Can someone educate me about what UU churches are exactly? I am just really surprised that an athiest or agnostic would go to a church of any kind so I think I must be missing something because a couple of people have posted that they go to those.

I guess I need to google on my own?


----------



## Maine Mama Doula

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
I'm sort of a stickler for the meanings of these two words.

Agnostic means "without knowledge." Agnostics recognize that nobody can know whether or not gods exist.

Atheist means "without belief." Atheists do not believe that gods exist.

I think "atheist" only seems harsh because people have vilified atheists for eons. It's really not a dirty word; I promise.









So, with these definitions, I would be atheist, since I don't BELIEVE, right?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama Soltera* 
I guess I need to google on my own?









UU is just a religion that accepts everyone with open arms. They don't condemn you for being homosexual, there's not a lot of rules, it's just a place for people to gather and be supportive to one another. It's not atheist/agnostic/pagan, etc, because their beliefs are based on the bible and one god. The UU church in my neighborhood hosted plays about transexuals. They just want everyone to be able to practice religion. I stopped going, because, well, I'm not religious.


----------



## odenata

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maine Mama Doula* 
UU is just a religion that accepts everyone with open arms. They don't condemn you for being homosexual, there's not a lot of rules, it's just a place for people to gather and be supportive to one another. It's not atheist/agnostic/pagan, etc, because their beliefs are based on the bible and one god. The UU church in my neighborhood hosted plays about transexuals. They just want everyone to be able to practice religion. I stopped going, because, well, I'm not religious.









Actually, I don't think UU is based around the Bible or the idea of one God, as it is non-creedal. Their seven principles are:
* The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
* Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
* Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
* A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
* The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
* The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
* Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

Here's an interesting link showing several views of UU members regarding God, including Atheist.

I define myself as a Humanist (and an Atheist) and I have been thinking about attending a UU church because I like having a community of people that share similar beliefs. When I was growing up, I was Christian and attended church regularly. I really liked having that "family" in my life. While I no longer believe in a higher power, I do believe in the power of community.


----------



## odenata

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maine Mama Doula* 
Subbing. I was not raised as any religion and having kids has made me think through this a lot. I went to a UU church once or twice...a church is a church. Not interested. Finally determined we are agnostic. Atheist seems to be such a harsh term. I don't BELIEVE in anything. I like facts.







So here I am.

While I will say I'm Atheist, I don't like the term that much, simply because I don't like defining myself by what I _don't_ believe.

That's why I usually say I am a Humanist.


----------



## rhiOrion

Wow, I can't believe I didn't know this tribe existed. I read the new posts often enough you'd think I would have noticed it before!

Anyhow. I'm a total agnostic (don't know if there is or is not a God, and don't think it really should matter). I live in the bible belt, but have spent most of my time in Asheville or the triangle area of NC. So relatively progressive areas inside the belt.

It honestly very rarely comes up for me. Other people talk about church, but nobody ever asks me where I go to church or anything.


----------



## no5no5

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
I'm sort of a stickler for the meanings of these two words.

Agnostic means "without knowledge." Agnostics recognize that nobody can know whether or not gods exist.

Atheist means "without belief." Atheists do not believe that gods exist.

I think "atheist" only seems harsh because people have vilified atheists for eons. It's really not a dirty word; I promise.









Actually, "atheist" means "godless." Someone who is agnostic does not believe that a god exists but does also not believe that a god does not exist. Agnostics suspend belief due to a lack of knowledge. Someone who is atheist actively believes that there is no god. I see myself as an atheist because, while I acknowledge that there is no way that it could be proven that there is no god, I believe that the lack of evidence of god is reason enough for me to form an actual belief that no such thing exists (just like I believe that there is no such thing as an invisible pink unicorn, despite the total lack of evidence for or against it). My mother is agnostic because she couldn't care less whether there is a god or not and can't be bothered to waste her time thinking about it.







Actually, while we're on the issue of semantics, I suppose that makes her more of a humanist than anything.


----------



## odenata

Quote:


Originally Posted by *no5no5* 
My mother is agnostic because she couldn't care less whether there is a god or not and can't be bothered to waste her time thinking about it.







Actually, while we're on the issue of semantics, I suppose that makes her more of a humanist than anything.









How are you defining "humanist" here? I ask because I don't quite follow what you mean here...


----------



## no5no5

Quote:


Originally Posted by *odenata* 
How are you defining "humanist" here? I ask because I don't quite follow what you mean here...

I'm using the standard definition, of a person who cares deeply about humanity and ethics, but not about spirituality or religious morality. Perhaps I was leaving too much between the lines, but my mother just thinks that thinking about god, etc., is a waste of time because she'd rather think about how to make positive changes in the physical, human world.


----------



## odenata

Quote:


Originally Posted by *no5no5* 
I'm using the standard definition, of a person who cares deeply about humanity and ethics, but not about spirituality or religious morality. Perhaps I was leaving too much between the lines, but my mother just thinks that thinking about god, etc., is a waste of time because she'd rather think about how to make positive changes in the physical, human world.









Gotcha.


----------



## MissMaegie'sMama

New to this thread, subbing. I've been reading through the thread from its beginning, so it'll take me a while to finish reading all the posts. Have to say it's nice to know I am not alone in my worldview.


----------



## outlier

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maine Mama Doula* 
I went to a UU church once or twice...a church is a church. Not interested.

I tried going once too just to check it out and was met with this same realization. I know they thought they were being friendly by asking me over and over if I wanted to join and would I please give them my address, e-mail, phone number, etc., but I felt so pressured and couldn't wait to get out of there. Churches are businesses, after all.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *no5no5* 
Actually, "atheist" means "godless." Someone who is agnostic does not believe that a god exists but does also not believe that a god does not exist. Agnostics suspend belief due to a lack of knowledge. Someone who is atheist actively believes that there is no god. I see myself as an atheist because, while I acknowledge that there is no way that it could be proven that there is no god, I believe that the lack of evidence of god is reason enough for me to form an actual belief that no such thing exists (just like I believe that there is no such thing as an invisible pink unicorn, despite the total lack of evidence for or against it).

I went years saying I was agnostic because the term "atheist" seemed so harsh and final. What finally made me adopt "atheist" is that I realized I could live my life being agnostic about pretty much anything--do I really know if I'm female? even though I seem perfectly healthy, could I actually have some terrible disease or disability? are my parents who they say they are?--at some point you (general you) have to look at the evidence (or complete lack of evidence) for something and decide how things are. I think it speaks to just how irrelevant religion and gods are to so many people's lives that they can live their lives as agnostics and never feel any need to make a decision. Saying I'm atheist doesn't mean I'm not allowed to change my mind if new evidence comes along. I do wish the term didn't have such shock value, though I may be more sensitive to it as a resident of the bible belt.









I'm so happy this thread is getting some activity again!


----------



## Mama Soltera

Wow, thank you for all of the information. I am really loving this conversation.
I guess I can understand some agnostics going to UU churches. I'm kind of hung up on the fact that it is a church though, exploring spirituality. Seems like a church/religion/etc.

For me, I suppose I just resist labeling myself. If I had to, I'd go with Agnostic, but I kind of wish people could just be. Again, this probably has something to do with my resistance to religion and that feeling of right and wrong clubs that come along with it.


----------



## earthworm

Quote:


Originally Posted by *philomom* 
Honestly, the way we finally dealt with the Bible belt was to move away.

LOL. We have been seriously considering it. The only thing holding us back is not wanting to leave family--at this point in our lives at least.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama Soltera* 
Wow, thank you for all of the information. I am really loving this conversation.
I guess I can understand some agnostics going to UU churches. I'm kind of hung up on the fact that it is a church though, exploring spirituality. Seems like a church/religion/etc.

Yeah, I think my interest in attending a UU church is really just to meet some families that are like-minded in some significant ways, their spirituality not necessarily needing to be one those ways. I doubt I'd be too into the services and might instead involve myself in other church activities. I'm not sure how acceptable that is as I have never regularly attended a church. before.


----------



## treehugz

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMcC* 
I know both families are going to want to do the good work on her little brain. I'm a little nervous about the pressure as our daughter grows up, with the conflict in theories of life.

Yes, I have this fear too... that's the main reason I've been going off-and-on to the UU "church" lately. I want to make sure we have a counter-balance for all the Christian influences DD gets. The one we go to is churchy in format, but the sermon part is more like a forum or a college discussion... very little spiritual talk per se. And I enjoy flipping through their song book and reading the words for some of the songs and the quotes, excerpts, and poems in the back... good inspiration for a non-believer.

I love the South... but yeah, the fund. Christians can be overpowering sometimes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treehugz* 
Anybody have any fun alternate non-religious lyrics for "Jesus loves me" that I can teach to my 2-yr old?

If anyone's interested, I got some good suggestions on the Summer UU thread.


----------



## marieangela

Anyone involved in or know much about cub scouts/boy scouts? I automatically dismissed the idea when the paper came home from school last year and this about cub scouts. The meetings are held in a church and, for some reason, I have it in my head that there are religious leanings. I've looked on line a bit and I see things about religious emblems and religious award programs. I woudn't even be thinking about it, but the mom of one of my 2nd graders classmates mentioned something her son was doing in cub scouts when my dh was around. He thinks our son should do this and didn't realize he could start so young. I think it's too late for this year, but I'm curious what other atheists and agnostics think about cub scouts/boy scouts.


----------



## LaFlaca1226

Quote:


Originally Posted by *marieangela* 
I'm curious what other atheists and agnostics think about cub scouts/boy scouts.

What I understand is that the Boy Scouts of America require that scouts pledge allegiance to a Christian God. People have protested their policies regarding religion, but apparently they won't change them.

But the Girl Scouts have taken away the religious piece entirely. I am just glad that we have girls instead of boys in our family, because DH was a boy scout and I know he would want us to send our boys to boy scouts, but it would be hard for me. I will definitely send my girls to Girl Scouts.

I know there is better information out there than what I've written here. I just am too lazy to look it up right now.


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## Theoretica

Boy scouts are unapologetically anti-atheist. We refuse to participate.

Girl scouts are supposedly non religious, but it depends on the leader. Our DD was asked to leave the troop she was in, and I have a STRONG hunch it's because she made it clear our family is atheist.


----------



## 2xy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LaFlaca1226* 
What I understand is that the Boy Scouts of America require that scouts pledge allegiance to a Christian God.

Not the Christian God. People of all faiths are welcome in BSA. They've gone head-to-head with the UUA in the past; not sure if that was ever resolved.

They do not welcome atheists or homosexuals. DS1 participated in cub scouts for a short while before we became aware of this. He quit of his own accord when we learned of it. I was pretty proud of him, since he was only 8yo at the time.


----------



## marieangela

Thanks for the Boy Scouts replies. I'm thinking that I need to sit down and have a talk with my 2nd grader about religion/atheism. So far we have just lived life and not been involved in religious things at all. Hearing that the Boy Scouts organization does not welcome atheists and homosexuals really turns me against them. My husband and I are atheists, but our children are just children. They don't have any religious views of any kind yet. I had hoped to keep it that way as long as possible. I want to be able to explain my distaste and reluctance when it comes to Cub Scouts, though. Now to figure out the best way to discuss religion/atheism with a 7 1/2 year old...


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## Mama Soltera

I have a somewhat strange question for all you: How do you deal with people's "ghost stories," as in "This happened to me" or "This happened to my friend?" I have a hard time with this. I don't want people to think I'm being dismissive of their experience, but I don't know what to say (much less what to make of it!). Have any of you come up against this?


----------



## EFmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama Soltera* 
I have a somewhat strange question for all you: How do you deal with people's "ghost stories," as in "This happened to me" or "This happened to my friend?" I have a hard time with this. I don't want people to think I'm being dismissive of their experience, but I don't know what to say (much less what to make of it!). Have any of you come up against this?

I smile and listen, then I change the subject.

I just had my step mother tell me some story that happened to her while she was in the hospital having an operation. It is religous hospital, and they have a group that comes in and mutters mumbo-jumbo over you, waves crystals over your operation site and holds hands and sings hymns. She was telling me earnestly how this stuff made god heal her faster. I just said, "I'm glad it made you feel better." Then I changed the subject.


----------



## no5no5

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama Soltera* 
I have a somewhat strange question for all you: How do you deal with people's "ghost stories," as in "This happened to me" or "This happened to my friend?" I have a hard time with this. I don't want people to think I'm being dismissive of their experience, but I don't know what to say (much less what to make of it!). Have any of you come up against this?

I've heard a lot of ghost stories in my time.







Have you tried, "Wow," or "That's crazy," or "Unbelievable," or "I can't imagine"?







Really, there's no need to state your own feelings about what they say they experienced. Just listening and expressing your surprise at the story is enough, IME. If you want to hear more (or something more interesting), you can ask about the genuine part of the story (i.e., the emotional content).


----------



## LaFlaca1226

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama Soltera* 
I have a somewhat strange question for all you: How do you deal with people's "ghost stories," as in "This happened to me" or "This happened to my friend?" I have a hard time with this. I don't want people to think I'm being dismissive of their experience, but I don't know what to say (much less what to make of it!). Have any of you come up against this?

If it's a ghost story, I just say "Oooh, that's so creepy!" I agree with the pp - there's no reason to go explain that you don't believe in ghosts, unless someone asks you. The experience was real for the person telling it, and that's what's important to them as they tell it. For me, it's like when someone tells about how much God has provided for them. I would just say "That's wonderful." That's not the time to bring up your differing beliefs.


----------



## outlier

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LaFlaca1226* 
If it's a ghost story, I just say "Oooh, that's so creepy!" I agree with the pp - there's no reason to go explain that you don't believe in ghosts, unless someone asks you. The experience was real for the person telling it, and that's what's important to them as they tell it. For me, it's like when someone tells about how much God has provided for them. I would just say "That's wonderful." That's not the time to bring up your differing beliefs.

Agreed. I am careful not to nod along with their story, as I've found that can be misinterpreted to mean I'm agreeing with their assessment of the events in question. I usually just furrow my eyebrows and say, "Hmm..." like I'm pondering what's being said.


----------



## Mama Soltera

That is what I usually do, but I found it harder when a family member -- who is confused by my lack of belief -- kept asking me to explain how these people saw what they saw. Tricky! Very tricky.







And sometimes, these stories are so outlandish that it is very difficult to just sit there and take it and fake a "wow!" Like molester (and rapists) ghosts who attack while you sleep.


----------



## philomom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *outlier* 
Agreed. I am careful not to nod along with their story, as I've found that can be misinterpreted to mean I'm agreeing with their assessment of the events in question. I usually just furrow my eyebrows and say, "Hmm..." like I'm pondering what's being said.

Yep, I do something similar.


----------



## edytais

Hello,
I have been subscribing to Mothering Magazine for years. Got tired of the same topics, so now I just discovered the forum.
So here are am introducing myself. I live in the heart of Arkansas in a small town with dh, and 3 kiddos. I think I am the only atheist homeschooler in the whole state, although it seems we are the only atheist family in the whole town of Arkadelphia! Everyone else is baptist. I must add my dd7 is going to the church choir. I feel like I am in dark ages when if you wanted to be a musician, artist or scientist you had to do it via church. Well, here I am, daughter who absoluted loves to sing has to go to church to do so.
I try to bring up my kids open minded and tolerant. I try to tell them to be respectful of other people's religious choices, however, sometimes my dh and I get into a discussion that might prove otherwise. I just can't help it and bash some of the extreme religious but hypocritical people surrounding me at times.
So.... I am having a really hard time here.
It also adds to hard time with homeschooling when ALL homeschoolers we know are super religious, and all their schooling evolves around bible study and other religious curricula. I can't share resources for homeschooling and I can't get any advice on anything because if I ask I get "pray to God, he will answer all your questions..." So I feel lonely, isolated, and as my children are growing older, they do too. So I am hoping to move out of this town, but for now I am stuck and looking for support online among like minded people.
I am into natural living style: unprocessed foods, chemical free house and toys, herbs and natural way of healing the body etc...
So, I am just looking for friends, even if it's just online








Edyta


----------



## no5no5

Welcome, Edyta.


----------



## MissMaegie'sMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edytais* 
Hello,
I have been subscribing to Mothering Magazine for years. Got tired of the same topics, so now I just discovered the forum.
So here are am introducing myself. I live in the heart of Arkansas in a small town with dh, and 3 kiddos. I think I am the only atheist homeschooler in the whole state, although it seems we are the only atheist family in the whole town of Arkadelphia! Everyone else is baptist. I must add my dd7 is going to the church choir. I feel like I am in dark ages when if you wanted to be a musician, artist or scientist you had to do it via church. Well, here I am, daughter who absoluted loves to sing has to go to church to do so.
I try to bring up my kids open minded and tolerant. I try to tell them to be respectful of other people's religious choices, however, sometimes my dh and I get into a discussion that might prove otherwise. I just can't help it and bash some of the extreme religious but hypocritical people surrounding me at times.
So.... I am having a really hard time here.
It also adds to hard time with homeschooling when ALL homeschoolers we know are super religious, and all their schooling evolves around bible study and other religious curricula. I can't share resources for homeschooling and I can't get any advice on anything because if I ask I get "pray to God, he will answer all your questions..." So I feel lonely, isolated, and as my children are growing older, they do too. So I am hoping to move out of this town, but for now I am stuck and looking for support online among like minded people.
I am into natural living style: unprocessed foods, chemical free house and toys, herbs and natural way of healing the body etc...
So, I am just looking for friends, even if it's just online








Edyta









That has to be a really hard situation to be in. It sounds like you are staying true to yourself despite the judgement and disapproval from those in your community. Supporting your DD's involvement in the church choir, even though you don't care for the venue, is a really selfless and loving act on your part (IMO). Your children are lucky to have you as a guide in their lives!

I am new to this thread myself, but having read through it makes me feel grateful for living in the upper midwest-- people here don't seem to be as hung up on others' religious/spiritual beliefs. Sure, there are plenty of fire-and-brimstone types, but they seem to be outnumbered by people of all faiths (including those without faith) who respect the beliefs of others (or who at least keep their disapproval to themselves







).


----------



## livingfree

i'm glad to have found this thread!

dh and i have recently become...non-believers? i'm not sure what word describes us best right now, lol. we both come from a very Conservative, fundamentalist background (church of Christ). as adults, we had become fairly liberal in our beliefs and our questions just ended up leading us away from Christianity. we were exploring Judaism for a while (after losing belief in Jesus) but have since come to question the existence of God(s). i guess, at the moment, i would classify myself as agnostic. i'm just not sure what i believe about a lot of things.

it's been great to read this thread. we have a 4yo dd and 1yo twin boys; our dd has been asking lots of questions lately about death and frequently talks about God/Jesus since we were regular church attenders for the first 3.5 years of her life. we have just been acting like those are stories, just like everything else we read her. she still asks for Bible stories to be read to her....we just try to gloss over it.

i do feel a bit lost as to how to fill the social gap that leaving church has left in our lives. of course, the kids keep us busy, lol. and i hope to make friends with parents at dd's preschool. but i'd love to find some local mamas who are non-believers...living in TX, we get lots of religion thrown at us all the time.

you would know...just earlier this summer, right before we really started asking the questions that led us away from religion, i got a religious tattoo on my forearm. thankfully, it's in Greek, but i always dread ppl asking me what it means....guess i'll be looking to get it covered up soon.


----------



## CallMeMommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *marieangela* 
Thanks for the Boy Scouts replies. I'm thinking that I need to sit down and have a talk with my 2nd grader about religion/atheism. So far we have just lived life and not been involved in religious things at all. Hearing that the Boy Scouts organization does not welcome atheists and homosexuals really turns me against them. My husband and I are atheists, but our children are just children. They don't have any religious views of any kind yet. I had hoped to keep it that way as long as possible. I want to be able to explain my distaste and reluctance when it comes to Cub Scouts, though. Now to figure out the best way to discuss religion/atheism with a 7 1/2 year old...

Ugh, this is what makes it so hard for me. I'm an Atheist, DH is a lapsed Catholic, and we don't attend church at all (well, DH went to Easter services at the Lutheran church across the street from our house last year, but that's it). I hate feeling like I'm punishing my child for my beliefs because he SO SO SO wants to join Boy Scouts, but I can't endorse an organization like that. Especially one that excludes *me*. How am I supposed to participate with my son with a clear conscience? I wish I was in an urban area with Spiral Scouts or something similar, but we're in rural Minnesota where nothing like that exists and nobody would even join if I started a group. The whole situation ticks me off.


----------



## Eyelet

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CallMeMommy* 
Ugh, this is what makes it so hard for me. I'm an Atheist, DH is a lapsed Catholic, and we don't attend church at all (well, DH went to Easter services at the Lutheran church across the street from our house last year, but that's it). I hate feeling like I'm punishing my child for my beliefs because he SO SO SO wants to join Boy Scouts, but I can't endorse an organization like that. Especially one that excludes *me*. How am I supposed to participate with my son with a clear conscience? I wish I was in an urban area with Spiral Scouts or something similar, but we're in rural Minnesota where nothing like that exists and nobody would even join if I started a group. The whole situation ticks me off.

My husband and I are both pretty hardcore atheists, and our son *really* wanted to join Boy Scouts. We also live in a more rural area, and there's not any similar organizations for children to join. After much thought, and with my son *begging* to join, we let him. I think it really depends on each individual troop, but our local one doesn't push the religious stuff. DS is working on becoming an Eagle Scout, an the religious badge is optional. We obviously opted out.
Sometimes there are badge requirements that we don't necessarily agree with, but we discuss them with DS and explain opposing views. Many badges in Boy Scouts are optional and can be skipped if they're offensive to our views.
Overall, we're cautiously happy about our decision to let DS join as he has learned many valuable skills, including first aid, wilderness survival skills, public speaking, etc. He also enjoys the many camping trips and volunteer requirements. In our situation, the positives of joining overcomes the negatives. However, if our local troop were more religious focused, I doubt I'd feel the same.


----------



## sammymama

Hi there,

Been awhile since I popped over to this forum, nice to see that it is still active!

Just thought I'd share:
After living in the DC-Metro area for the past 3 years (relocating from San Francisco), my DH and I are *still* experiencing culture shock. Tonight we saw a store stocking it's shelves with a bunch of "reason for the season" manger-covered bumper stickers. (We had never seen those before moving here; the cars here become plastered with them right about this time of year!!) It kills me that this particular slogan is slathered all over the cars - the cars of quite possibly the most aggro drivers on the planet! These people drive like maniacs - speed, don't use turn signals, cut each other off, honk the INSTANT the light turns green, yell/swear out the window, flip the bird, etc. So I just think it's funny when drivers behave like that, then turn a corner to reveal their godly bumper sticker. Lol!


----------



## pumpkin

Marking the winter solstice?

We celebrate Christmas as a cultural holiday with our families. I would like to start a tradition of acknowledging the winter solstice as the real impetus of the holiday season. The science lesson will come eventually. For now I am looking for a fun way to celebrate the 21st with DD. Any ideas?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## philomom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *livingfree* 
i'm glad to have found this thread!

dh and i have recently become...non-believers? i'm not sure what word describes us best right now, lol. we both come from a very Conservative, fundamentalist background (church of Christ). as adults, we had become fairly liberal in our beliefs and our questions just ended up leading us away from Christianity. we were exploring Judaism for a while (after losing belief in Jesus) but have since come to question the existence of God(s). i guess, at the moment, i would classify myself as agnostic. i'm just not sure what i believe about a lot of things.

it's been great to read this thread. we have a 4yo dd and 1yo twin boys; our dd has been asking lots of questions lately about death and frequently talks about God/Jesus since we were regular church attenders for the first 3.5 years of her life. we have just been acting like those are stories, just like everything else we read her. she still asks for Bible stories to be read to her....we just try to gloss over it.

i do feel a bit lost as to how to fill the social gap that leaving church has left in our lives. of course, the kids keep us busy, lol. and i hope to make friends with parents at dd's preschool. but i'd love to find some local mamas who are non-believers...living in TX, we get lots of religion thrown at us all the time.

you would know...just earlier this summer, right before we really started asking the questions that led us away from religion, i got a religious tattoo on my forearm. thankfully, it's in Greek, but i always dread ppl asking me what it means....guess i'll be looking to get it covered up soon.

Some like UU for filling that church-y gap. Others find a humanist community to share in. Still others, like me and hubby just try to create our own tribe of disbelievers. We create new parties and rituals of our own for our children and friends to look forward to.

I think its okay to introduce the bible as history... most folks should recognize certain phrases because they seep into the mainstream.... like "40 days and 40 nights" or "walking on water".

My hubby is Jewish by birth. We toyed with the idea because they have such good rituals in their culture but as we explored more... they are still solidly anti-woman in many aspects. I'm raising a daughter here and I never want her to believe she's a second class citizen.

Good luck on your journey.


----------



## Theoretica

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkin* 
Marking the winter solstice?

We celebrate Christmas as a cultural holiday with our families. I would like to start a tradition of acknowledging the winter solstice as the real impetus of the holiday season. The science lesson will come eventually. For now I am looking for a fun way to celebrate the 21st with DD. Any ideas?
_Posted via Mobile Device_

We actually do our winter holiday on the 21st because of this. It *is* the reason for the season, so it only makes sense to have that be our 'real' holiday. The 25th is when Santa comes
















Anyways, we get a big roaring fire going in the wood stove, and we put in a big log that will burn all night. We talk about what all the symbols of the season mean, and light candles and such. Then we get up in the morning and watch the sun rise on a new season of change! We have kind of a 'summer in December' theme with sun 'stuff' and that sort of thing. The 21st is also when we open the family gifts, have a 'nice' dinner together, and it's a little less goofy than the 25th, when we do stockings and santa (they know santa isn't real any more than any other myth out there, no worries) and be lazy all day.

Our kids love doing it this way, it separates our experience from the Christian one, and in so doing it allows us to have it our own way


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## kwoodchuck

Thanks for sharing, that sounds wonderful!


----------



## kwoodchuck

Oops I didn't really introduce myself! I've been so busy reading this thread and enjoying it so much. I've already signed up for Free Inquiry, and watched the Christopher Hutchins video too. I need to go to bed, so I won't post my whole story here right now, but I'm glad to say, I feel I am home! Glad to be here! And... I'll throw out a couple of questions to start off. One: why did the previous thread get removed? I haven't figured it out yet. Two: does/can anyone here ever discuss ideas about how religion can be abusive? Or one's experiences being abused by a religion? I mentioned something about this in another mdc forum and my thread was kicked out apparently due to UA violations. As I've read more and more on *this* tribe's thread...and after watching Christopher Hutchins, I am thinking that there is a difference between attacking *ideas* and attacking *people*...of course I feel I was only addressing (I think 'attacking' is too strong a word) the *idea* of God in a negative way, not the *people* who choose to worship such a God. Yeah, it's a fine line I guess...but, something interesting to think about. I think someone here mentioned something about how it's easy to be attacked for saying something 'offensive' about a particular religion, but it's perfectly ok for someone to say something "religious" to 'offend' us! With the more I read and am able to draw on my own experiences, I am coming to the conclusion that ... let's just say...there's a lot of mental/emotional child abuse that goes on in the name of religion, and I think it is wrong to indoctrinate children with religious ideas...it can actually cause harm in their lives as adults, and can cause harm to others. I wonder if that can even be discussed here at mdc.

Anyway, I'm just curious as to what sort of responses I get to this, and it will also give me a better idea of what is appropriate or not under the 'UA.' I'm still learning. I'm always happy to get a PM too.

Many thanks and Happy Soltice!


----------



## philomom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kwoodchuck*
> 
> I think someone here mentioned something about how it's easy to be attacked for saying something 'offensive' about a particular religion, but it's perfectly ok for someone to say something "religious" to 'offend' us! With the more I read and am able to draw on my own experiences, I am coming to the conclusion that ... let's just say...there's a lot of mental/emotional child abuse that goes on in the name of religion, and I think it is wrong to indoctrinate children with religious ideas...it can actually cause harm in their lives as adults, and can cause harm to others. I wonder if that can even be discussed here at mdc.


Gosh , you have only to wander in to some forums at MDC and feel like folks are proselytizing their faith to you.

And yes to the emotional/mental abuse that goes on in religion. I tell folks I was "abused by organized religion". I'm so glad I recovered.

I have a teen dd who is watching the Jesus camp documentary right now and she's appalled just as I was when I first saw it . The outright manipulation of children by grown-ups in this film is shocking.


----------



## kwoodchuck

Well, glad to hear I'm not alone here! I forgot about that documentary...but I saw it, and completely related! I certainly had many experiences like that growing up. I'm glad your child is watching it!


----------



## kwoodchuck

Okay...this is my 'cleaned up' post from the other forum...I don't feel I'm getting much in the way of great support over there, so I'm going to post it here, where it seems to belong. I guess what I'm looking for is commiseration/support and some good examples of *words to use* in this situation, not other types of advice, like "don't do it" or "you're the one who has to change," etc.

Many thanks!

Hello,

I'm getting ready to write a letter to my mother about this, but I'm also really hoping to find someone else out there who has already done this to see what sort of words are best to be used. I'm sure I can't be the first person who has needed to do this!!

My mother came for Christmas, and gave our little 2 yr old girl some gifts that were, frankly, rather traumatic for me to see (children's religious books and a stuffed Teddy bear that sang a religious song quite loud and obnoxiously). I grew up with her and in a religious school where the fundamentalist way was hammered into me in an abusive way.

I've always known that I was going to have to set a pretty firm boundary with her about this, and this is the time....she really set me off this time. I didn't say anything while she was visiting, but would rather deal with it in a letter (she lives across the country from me). I've already had experiences with her trying to be honest and set boundaries on the phone and it was pure hell. She's in a fairly healthy place right now mentally, about as good as she ever seems to get (struggles with depression a lot)...I do somewhat fear 'sending her into another depression' but I also know that *I* don't cause her depression....and I just don't care so much anymore....I am determined to set this boundary and believe it is very important.

As far as my own spirituality goes, I've been avoiding discussing it with her for as long as possible. I still wish to reveal as little as possible to her, but still give her enough of an explanation so that she can adjust her behavior accordingly (if she so chooses). I don't feel like discussing them here right now.

So...basically what I want to tell her is that we don't appreciate her launching into pre-meal prayers with out asking...especially in public, but, basically, we don't want her praying out loud around us at all ... we prefer to ask the blessing at dinner ourselves, if at all, and we don't do it at breakfast or lunch. She has launched into these before and its very uncomfortable and I get scared to even sit down to a meal with her, or go out for one with her.

The other thing is to ask her to limit her gift-giving to us, and esp. our daughter, to non-religious, non-spiritual gifts, unless she runs them by us first, knowing that we will likely disapprove of them.

I know its going to be hard on her...when she is feeling "mentally well" unfortunately she gets more into proselytizing us... she will likely say things like "this is who I am and you aren't letting me be me!" (this is what she often says if I try to set a boundary with her and make a request that she change her behavior around me). (she is also an alcoholic and has a hard time with boundaries).

If anyone else has already said these sorts of things to their parents, I would love to see some of the wording! Also, please feel free to PM me if you want to have a more detailed discussion, I would love it!

Thanks so much!

Kristin

PS--in the past we've discussed using her counseling sessions to 'work on our relationship,' so it's not like I'd be 'taking' one from her or something...I felt it would be a supportive way to do this.


----------



## no5no5

Kristin, my take is this:

Asking your mother not to send or give religious toys to your DD is fine, IMO. I would just let her know that you don't want your DD exposed to things like that. If you aren't going to be physically around her much (in other words, if her next opportunity for gift giving is a while off), you might wait until a more neutral time, like spring or summer. If she keeps giving the toys that you feel are offensive, just throw them away.









As for her saying prayers out loud around you, especially in public...I guess I just don't get why this is an issue. I don't see why that would offend you or embarrass you, and it seems to me that it is her right to practice her religion. Maybe I just don't understand this issue because I was not raised in a religious family (though some of my relatives are very religious and pray before meals while we just sit quietly) and because we don't do blessings before meals. If one of our dinner guests started praying, we'd just be a bit amused, not offended. If he or she tried to get us to join in, we'd politely decline.


----------



## philomom

All unwanted religious type gifties will be returned or removed from the home. Prayer may have be tolerated in an eyeroll, free speech shrug kind of way. Your mom may try to get your kid to church at some point. This was a breaking point with me and my mom... she just had to show them off at church when I had asked her not to take them... she lost her grandma overnights for a long time over this issue. Be firm, don't waffle.


----------



## Hykue

Hi, everyone! Glad to find a place where I don't feel like the only non-religious person who thinks family and parenting is important. I'm agnostic, and my husband is atheist. He comes from a family of atheists (including his maternal grandparents). I just asked him, and he thinks his paternal grandparents went to church, but I have visited with them a lot and never even knew that, so they're not very religious, or got less religious as they aged. My mother was raised Catholic, and is now what we lovingly call a "cuckoo angel lady" who is quite spiritual, somewhat Christian, and a little religious, but extremely tolerant of other beliefs (or non-beliefs). My dad was raised just a little religious, I think, and is now Christian, but not too religious or spiritual. When I was 21 (and not very aware of others' feelings yet) I made the mistake of telling him that his recently required "acceptance of Christ" had to do with his increasing fear of death as he aged. In retrospect, that was a very cruel thing to say. Anyway, I'm fortunate that I have such a network of real-life people who accept me.

I say "good health" when someone sneezes (and sometimes for coughs and blowing noses). Makes sense to me, and I feel silly saying something that means that same thing in German, since I don't speak any other German.

Family meals and prayer time - growing up, we always said "Thank you for the food we eat, thank you for the flowers sweet, thank you for the birds that sing, thank you god for everything." Honestly, other than the god part, I'm in full agreement with that. We would all hold hands when we said it. I asked my husband the first time he was at my parents' place if he minded taking part in this, and he said it was fine and just skipped saying the word "God". On my most recent visit last Thanksgiving, at the start of mealtime, my parents would just hold hands with each other and say it. I think they wanted to make sure no-one felt they had to take part. They go to a multi-denominational church, in NW Arkansas, where the pastor agrees with evolution (making him a minority in their area) and considers himself more of a "morality questioner" using the bible than anything. I'm glad my parents could find a church that they love and that I'm not offended by. I've gone a few times, because I know they want their church friends to meet me, and I'm seldom there.

Holidays - we're still figuring this out. We've never celebrated at all, as we're both pretty anti-consumerist and non-religious. We still get together with family and have a feast at those times, because that's when people get time off of work. I like having special decorations and a tradition for midwinter, because I have seasonal affective disorder, and the midwinter days here are REALLY short, and pretty cold too. This year my MIL and I went out and got a little spruce tree. We decorated it with leftover fleece strips from a housecoat I just made (bright red), and other warm-colored bits, my MIL made a felted sun for the top, I made a needle-felted butterfly and a rainbow felted garland. It has caribou and birds and snowmen as well. We made all the decorations ourselves. It was fun, and festive, and cheered me up. My husband was pretty insistent on no Xmas lights - a waste of power in his opinion. I do like the extra light, but I can see his point. Thanksgiving never had any religious connotation for me, so it doesn't have to change. I was surprised to find out at about the age of 12 that Easter was supposed to be religious - I think I already knew it was named after a goddess of fertility, and besides bunnies laying eggs have nothing to do with god or christ. I went quite a few times to a hippie music festival on the weekend closest to summer solstice, and my husband and I first got together on solstice in 2000. I guess what I'm saying is, I love seasonal celebrations! I like marking time, and I like knowing that our (nearly interminable) winters will eventually end. I like feasting, I like seeing family, and I feel like I can maintain all of these things without it having anything at all to do with religion. And very little to do with consumerism, either (the new religion . . . anybody ever read American Gods? That was a fun book).

Most people here do go to church, but I don't sense that there's a lot of pressure to do so - I realized I had said "hell" in front of my neighbor's 10-year-old daughter and apologized later, after I saw the christian magazines in their bathroom, but she hadn't even noticed and seemed completely unconcerned with my religious stance. I did meet a friendly old man in the grocery store the other day who kept saying "Lord love you!" . . . literally, he said it more than once in some sentences. Eventually he got to the point ("what church do you belong to") and when I told him I wasn't religious at all, he said "God forgive you" and then looked a little ashamed that he had seen fit to decide whether God needed to forgive me or not.







Anyway, I lived in East Texas for a few years, and by comparison to that, this area is very accepting.

Finally (I apparently really had a lot to say about this), I wanted to discuss the religious past. When I was 15 I went on a "mission trip" to the Ukraine. A (very religious) friend of mine had gone the year before, and she had loved it. She knew I wasn't religious, and I think she wanted some company more than anything. She put it to me in a way I couldn't refuse - since it was a mission trip, I could go around to businesses and ask them to pledge money to support the trip - that is to say, I got to travel for free. I did end up kicking in some of the money myself, by selling my trampoline, but most of it came from outside. I want to make it very clear that in fact, the experience was wonderful, and it changed me for the better in many ways. I learned many things about our level of privilege here, and relating to people from other cultures, and compassion, and tolerance (or lack of it), and myself, and even morality. I also learned a lot about brainwashing. Seriously. I'm an intelligent person, I was not religious when I left, and when I came back my parents were actually worried about me (they told me years later) because I was a different person, and not in a good way. I had learned intolerance and self-righteousness along with those other things. Before the mission trip, there was a "boot camp" (yes, it was called that) where the kids learned a bunch of cool skills (like bricklaying) and other than that went through a carefully designed brainwashing campaign. We got a limited amount of sleep, we had no free time, meals were regimented, physical exercise was fairly difficult, mandatory, and judgmental. What we could wear and sing was strictly proscribed. Every evening there was a meeting in the "big top" tent that consisted of singing (some really fun songs) and a bit of "ministry", and then a call to accept Jesus as your personal savior etc . . . Needless to say, it worked. Peer pressure is a powerful thing. I also saw "Jesus Camp", and I think I would have had a hard time believing it if I hadn't been through it. I watched that with a bunch of my biologist friends, one of whom couldn't believe that it worked. He was certainly surprised to hear that I had been through it and it did work . . . he was shaken, because he has a lot of respect for my intelligence (about the only thing he respects about me, but that's another story). It's amazing how well some of these organizations have worked out how to "convert" people. I don't mean to imply that any of them have other than the best of intentions - I understand that they think they are doing a lot of good by converting people, that it's a good deed to be commended. And they've gotten very good at it indeed, through trial and error and probably a lot of psychology. And I'll tell you what, I find it downright frightening. I consider most religion as practiced by most people to be pretty harmless, but if it was that easy to brainwash me (and it WAS that easy), how could I not be afraid? What if that had been the Hitler Youth League (or whatever it was called) instead? So now I'm pretty much allergic to propaganda of any type. If someone seems to have an agenda, ANY agenda, and is trying to convince me of something, I shy away.

And that's where I'm coming from. Nowhere near as severe as some of the post-Mormon stories, I'm sure. I've known a few people who got out of that life, and they all seem to struggle hard with keeping themselves from being very bitter. Anyway, that's certainly enough about me.

Kristin - I think you have every right to set those boundaries. I don't suggest using this wording to your mom, but if others question your right to ask that she not pray aloud, ask if they think you have the right to talk about something they find painful and offensive before every meal. Sometimes, if our thoughts are painful to other people, we should have the kindness to keep them as thoughts and not put them into words. She doesn't HAVE to respect your wishes on this, but you don't have to respect her wishes on being around you at mealtimes, either. Personally, I don't understand why this would be offensive, but if it is, you have the right to request that her behavior changes. I would find it offensive if my MIL mentioned her dog's attack on our sheep when we were sitting down to eat a leg of lamb. Other people might not be offended, but I would be unable to eat then, so I would ask that she not talk about this, even if she thought it in her head (incidentally, she would never do this). I don't think most religions require that you pray ALOUD before every meal. If hers does, then it is something you two will have to somehow find compromise on . . . which you can't do until each party makes their needs and wants known.


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## kwoodchuck

Thanks for sharing all of that, Hyckue, and welcome! I can relate fairly well to your 'mission trip' story...it is of course very easy to brainwash kids! I saw Jesus Camp and related well...it was slightly more extreme than what I experienced maybe, but not by much. I think unfortunately that people's brains are pretty malleable up through, what is it? Age 21, or 25, is when our brains are considered to be 'fully developed.' I remember being in college Christian groups, and they would say 'we need to 'get' people before they leave college, because statistically, after that age, they probably won't accept Christ.' Gee, it's because their brains aren't even fully adult yet! And everyone is slightly different. Even though I grew up with all this bull**** pounded into my head, and plenty of mental/emotional abuse, and plenty of doubting and thinking along the way, I didn't fully get 'out' of it and admit I didn't believe any of it until I was 29. There is a group out there something like "End Child Indoctrination" and I can see why they exist.

I know you (Hyucke) said these groups 'do a lot of good' by converting people and whatnot...I have a hard time believing that, although I have that thought sometimes. They can be good at helping people with drug addictions and whatnot, but I believe they just trade one addiction for another. It's probably a better one...maybe. There are all kinds of psychological reasons why it was *not* good for me to grow up that way, and it had detrimental and lasting affects, which I won't go into here of course, but let's just say I needed a lot of counseling for it.

Really, any time someone talks using the same words that were used to abuse me as a child, I cringe. "Jesus is Lord" and all that stuff. And especially when it's my mom, who was the abuser. So...hopefully that sheds some light on why it's offensive when she prays the way she does with us, and forcing it on us without even asking...totally inconsiderate, just as she was to me as a child. And then forcing it on my child who is there too. Grrrrr. So, I will not tolerate it, esp. in my own home.

Hyuke you are a biologist? That is what I am/was before I became a sahm. Wildlife kinds of stuff. I did pretty well in school, got an MS and all that. And still my brain was sucked into that crap for such a long time! I got all the way through a Biology degree at a public university and, this is embarrassing to admit, still believed in Creationism! That's how bad it was! It's Very. Powerful. Stuff. And I do not take it lightly.


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## Hykue

Firstly, just a quick clarification. I actually said "they think they are doing a lot of good by converting people", not that they actually ARE doing a lot of good. I'm only speaking to the intentions of organizations like this one, not the outcomes.

I am a biologist, and I think I always will be whether I'm working in that field or not. I did quite well in University, but decided not to do graduate studies. I've mostly done work as a field technician for wildlife and biodiversity stuff. Good fun!

Honestly, it sounds like you need to set firm boundaries with your mom. If I had to give you advice (and it sounds like you're asking), I would say that you should try to keep it friendly but ask her not to do that any more. Make it clear that it's really important to you. Don't leave any room for ambiguity. Then, if she disregards your wishes, you can tell her that she's not welcome at your table at mealtimes, because she refused to honor your wishes. But I'm not the best at reaching agreements with others, as I tend to expect to get my way and I can be a bit of a hardliner . . . nonetheless, if you consider this behavior abusive, simply do not accept it, whatever that takes. I hope someone else chimes in with some more advice, 'cause I'm not sure that's a good one to follow.


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## lactatinggirl

Hey I'm an atheist mama! My husband is agnostic too. Living in Utah makes raising my daughter atheist is definitely interesting.


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## oregonianmama

Hi there? Can I join? I have been active on MDC for awhile but created a new account to get a more neutral user name, hence the "new member" status. My husband and I are both agnostic and are raising our 17 month old son to be a freethinker. We live in one of the most conservative towns in one of the most liberal states in the country  We have a christian university about two blocks away so that makes for some interesting interactions. Glad to be here!


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## Mama Soltera

Hi Oregonianmama! Welcome.


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## treehugz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kwoodchuck*
> If anyone else has already said these sorts of things to their parents, I would love to see some of the wording! Also, please feel free to PM me if you want to have a more detailed discussion, I would love it!


Hi Kristin,

I went through this exact same dilemma with my mil (very fundamental Christian) this Christmas, with her giving dd religious books. My dh is Christian, so we are an interfaith couple... he talked with his mom later about the books, saying basically that since he and I don't agree on religious matters that we'd appreciate it if she wouldn't give us any more religious gifts that could be contentious. The next time she came to visit, she brought some books to read to dd. She took me aside, gave me two of the books and told me that they may be questionable... and asked if I'd like to read them before she let dd see them. So she left the books with me and I followed up with an email to her a couple days later. I had just read Dale McGowan's blog about how to approach family about religious differences, and this is how I replied:

"I really appreciate you giving me the opportunity to review the two books you brought last weekend. It means so much to me (and dh) to find a common ground with our faiths and to create the best possible family situation to raise dd... of course, it can be a lot of work to maintain that delicate balance. We looked through both books and the Count Your Blessings one is just fine, and we've been reading it to dd... she's still too young for the Creation book though. We want to wait till she's a little older before presenting religious stories or scriptures, and then it will be in a "some people believe..." way that is offered as belief and not fact. I know your faith is very important to you, and I see that you truly live your faith... so we hope when dd's a little older, you will share what you believe with her!"

Of course we will set some clear guidelines when it comes time for her to share her beliefs, but for now, this email was very well received by my MIL... a huge surprise and relief. Here's the link to Dale's blog if you're interested: http://parentingbeyondbelief.com/blog/?p=3430


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## philomom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treehugz*
> 
> Hi Kristin,
> 
> Of course we will set some clear guidelines when it comes time for her to share her beliefs, but for now, this email was very well received by my MIL... a huge surprise and relief. Here's the link to Dale's blog if you're interested: http://parentingbeyondbelief.com/blog/?p=3430


That is a good site!


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## zenmumajen

Hi everyone! I think I may have introduced myself here a few months ago. I would describe myself as agnostic while DF is unsure. He was raised catholic but is hesitant to call himself christian. He has high respect for his parent's beliefs whom are catholic. They don't attend church but are religious. Usually at dinner they pray and do the sign of the cross (respectively) and DF will do it with them but never at our home.

I am concerned that when my son gets a little older that he is going to ask "why is grandma, grandpa, and dad doing that mommy?". I am unsure of what I will say to him and nervous that he will want to do it with them. Of course, this will make me feel uncomfortable. *Has anyone handled a similar situation?*

Also- DF has always said that if Leo is interested in going to church that he will take him. I understand where he is coming from but I am honestly not at all comfortable in taking him to church and really don't want him going at all even if Im not there. Leo is going to look up to his dad and if he sees him doing the prayer at the dinner table, of course he will want to partake in it! I am not sure if I am being unreasonable but it upsets me so much thinking about it.


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## philomom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zenmumajen*
> 
> Also- DF has always said that if Leo is interested in going to church that he will take him. I understand where he is coming from but I am honestly not at all comfortable in taking him to church and really don't want him going at all even if Im not there. Leo is going to look up to his dad and if he sees him doing the prayer at the dinner table, of course he will want to partake in it! I am not sure if I am being unreasonable but it upsets me so much thinking about it. We got in an argument about it right before my bag of waters started leaking (which I'm almost positive brought it on). Then there is always the paranoia that his parents are going to push their beliefs on him....


Sweetie, a lot of these things should have been hashed out pre-kid. That said, you need to schedule some grown up time to talk to your dh about your feelings. This is really a topic not to be wishy washy about. How can he teach your son to be a believer if you are not one? The things about church that folks crave are the fellowship and the ritual/tradition of it all. Create some traditions in your new family that have nothing to do with the church. Things your child/children will look forward to each year.


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## Niamh

Quote:

Originally Posted by *zenmumajen* 

I am concerned that when my son gets a little older that he is going to ask "why is grandma, grandpa, and dad doing that mommy?". I am unsure of what I will say to him and nervous that he will want to do it with them. Of course, this will make me feel uncomfortable. *Has anyone handled a similar situation?*

Absolutely. My husband is Mormon and I am not. I was up until a few months into my pregnancy with my first child, but I'm not now. All of his extended family is and the vast majority of mine.
They see daddy/grandma/grandpa/cousins/aunts/uncles praying all the time. They hear them talking about 'the church'. They are exposed to those beliefs that are so strong they are a part of who those people are. They ask questions.

Don't be unsure of what you will say to him. You have a really good opportunity right now to *plan* what you will say. The fact of the matter is, though those beliefs aren't *your* beliefs, spiritual belief is part of the human condition for the vast majority of humans throughout history. In recent history (the last few thousand years), those spiritual beliefs have been expressed through religion. You have your own little case study in your extended family.  What *I* say varies according to the depth of the answer desired (really pay attention to the question and what the child is asking - sometimes they're asking simple, simple questions, sometimes they want more in-depth stuff) - oh, the things I could tell my kids about women and polygamy and racism in the LDS church ... but at 7 and 4, they just aren't interested in that. Explain the belief matter-of-factly. If it is appropriate to the conversation, drop in *your* beliefs, even if it's a simple "I don't believe that." You have such a good opportunity to teach him tolerance for those whose beliefs are different than his.

Don't be nervous that he'll want to do it with them. Of course he will. He's a little human and little humans emulate big humans. It's how they learn. My girls love folding their arms and praying when we visit family. They don't do it here at home, though the older one will occasionally make a big production out of praying before dinner. It's funny and cute. If she wants to do it when it's just me and asks me to pray or asks why I'm not folding my arms, I say "Because I don't have those beliefs so it would be disrespectful of me to join in. I will sit here quietly while you do it, though."

I think you should work on why it will make you uncomfortable for him to ask you a question about religion and family - would it make you uncomfortable if he asked you questions about Islam or Buddhism or Mormonism or Scientology? Stick Catholicism in with all those other belief systems and answer his questions. He will sense your uncomfortableness and (probably unconciously) let that play into his relationship with the family members, which isn't fair to them or him.

One thing I will say is that while I let family answer her (my oldest daughter is the only one remotely interested in it) questions, I draw the line quite firmly at them introducing ideas like "You need Jesus to forgive you for sins" (have I mentioned that one of my favorite things about raising a child without religion is that 'sin' is not part of her vocabulary - by the time I was 7, I couldn't wait for the next year when I got baptized at 8 and got forgiven for all my 'sins' - good lord, what kind of 'sins' can a 7 year old need to be forgiven for?), "Jesus is sad that you don't go to church." or "God loves you so much when you are a good little girl." Of course, I draw the line firmly at anybody using 'good little girl' statements anyway ... I would suggest that you get the in-laws used to the fact that while answering questions is ok, proselytizing is not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *zenmumajen* 

Also- DF has always said that if Leo is interested in going to church that he will take him. I understand where he is coming from but I am honestly not at all comfortable in taking him to church and really don't want him going at all even if Im not there.

I not only think you should let him take him, I think that if you want to answer his questions right when they come up (because at a young age, he'll forget he had them by the time he gets home), you should go with them. Tell his father that you want to give him the chance to concentrate on the service and you will watch your child. I took this tack with my kids and it has worked out wonderfully. In fact, I've taken them a few times when their father didn't want to go, but they did. Now that they're older and it's about sitting still for THREE HOURS, they have no interest in going. It can't be much different for a little one in your church, can it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by *zenmumajen* 


> Leo is going to look up to his dad and if he sees him doing the prayer at the dinner table, of course he will want to partake in it! I am not sure if I am being unreasonable but it upsets me so much thinking about it.


 Of course he will! I think you should let him. Sit there quietly but don't fold your arms or bow your head. Just respect your partner's belief. When the question comes up, as it inevitable will, answer it right there. I'll tell you this - it will probably make your partner more uncomfortable to hear you explain your lack of belief than it will make you to see your child praying. It does look rather silly, even when you couch it in the most respectful way possible.

Are you being unreasonable? Maybe. I would say yes. But .. but but BUT ... it is what is. You are where you are right now. When I left 'the church', I went through blinding anger, moderate anger, serious unreasonableness, crazy frustration ... all those stages - just thinking about the baby blessing (where the humans with penises get to stand in a circle and bless the child while all of those with uteruses - including the one who *birthed* the baby - have to sit sedately and bow their heads) would upset me so much that I became incoherent. The best thing for your child, though, is for you to work through this and get to a better place to be answering his questions from.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> Sweetie, a lot of these things should have been hashed out pre-kid. That said, you need to schedule some grown up time to talk to your dh about your feelings. This is really a topic not to be wishy washy about. How can he teach your son to be a believer if you are not one?


 My husband and I were completely on the same page pre-kid. I went off script when I got pregnant and a few months into it realized that I couldn't raise a child in 'the church'. This has had to be hashed out over the first few years of my oldest child's life - and will probably still need some hashing out as our kids grow.

He can teach *his* son to be a believer if she's not, just as she can teach *her* son to be an unbeliever if he's not. This child is from both parents. That's why I agree that the parents need some serious talks to figure out how they're going to do it - how to not be wishy-washy.

What we've come to an agreement about is that each of us answer our children's questions as best we can without disparaging the other parent's beliefs. That's the biggest thing we agreed on. Mormon kids are taught to despise those who don't believe - especially those who had the opportunity to believe (like me) and turned it down - and it doesn't matter if that unbeliever is a parent or a sibling. I was not ok with that - that was my hill to die on. Luckily, he didn't want it either. However, he wanted to be sure that she wouldn't feel the same way about him for his belief. So we've both worked at being respectful of the other.

There have been times that one of his beliefs is so crazy (as most Mormon beliefs are) that I'll give her the basics and then say "You're going to have to ask him about that. I just can't wrap my head around it." Or "You're going to have to ask him. I disagree very strongly with that." There are also times as she gets older when I'll be able to be more clear about my irritation/frustration/anger about *the church* without having it affect how I or she feels about *him*, but at such a young age, that's not an option.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> The things about church that folks crave are the fellowship and the ritual/tradition of it all. Create some traditions in your new family that have nothing to do with the church. Things your child/children will look forward to each year.


 This is so, *so* true. What are you going to do if your child is naturally spiritual, as my oldest is? You've got to have a plan in place for him so that he doesn't turn to religion - and Catholicism as the most accessible religion - to answer that need in him.

For my daughter, I encourage fairies, Mother Nature, the earth, the moon, seasonal rituals - lots of things that I'm not terribly comfortable with myself (because of a lifetime of being told 'pagan' things are evil) to answer this need for her. So far it's working.

Build up a community so that he doesn't need to look to church for that.


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## zenmumajen

Niamh: Thank you so much for taking the time to read my concerns and I really appreciate your honesty.

I mentioned I would feel uncomfortable If my son asks "why are they praying?". I was meaning I would feel uncomfortable explaining it in front of my inlaws. You are right though, it will make me look silly and that was where my nervousness was coming from. We have decided to let our son know that if he wants to pray with them that he can.

I think my issue with him going to church and praying is I don't want him doing something he isn't able to fully understand and there is only so much his mind will be able to comprehend when he is a child. I just want him to make an educated decision.

It is not that I want to ban him from church because I think that he should have the opportunity to go and I don't want to take that away from him. I think I am just trying to protect him. I was forced to go to church because my step dad wanted my sister and I baptized. I didn't understand why I was there and felt a lot of judgment. I have always felt very uncomfortable in church (not just my step-father's) and I don't want him to ever feel that way or feel judged. I think I need to focus on letting go of some of my insecurities...

We really want to teach Leo about all religions as they are all interesting to us as well as emphasizing nature. I like your idea of building up a community for him which is something we will focus on.

Thank you so much for sharing your experiences with me. In my post I was being really honest and openly admitting my fears, but I am just trying to realize that Leo is going to be his only little person and I have the opportunity to guide and share my own unique perspective with him


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## zenmumajen

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> Sweetie, a lot of these things should have been hashed out pre-kid. That said, you need to schedule some grown up time to talk to your dh about your feelings. This is really a topic not to be wishy washy about. How can he teach your son to be a believer if you are not one? The things about church that folks crave are the fellowship and the ritual/tradition of it all. Create some traditions in your new family that have nothing to do with the church. Things your child/children will look forward to each year.


We have talked about it, and will probably be talking more about it as the issue comes up. We are going to start focusing on new traditions so that we can establish some rituals with him. I like the idea of saying a prayer at the table after we have a nice home cooked meal together and thanking the earth for the food it has given us. I found some interesting ones, at offbeatmama.com if anybody is interested.

"How I say grace without brining capital R Religion into it" http://offbeatmama.com/2010/11/secular-grace


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## philomom

We didn't have a grace ritual other than looking at each other and being glad we had make it through another day of school/work, etc.

We did have a nighttime ritual where I would make a circle over their heads and say "magic circle safe and sound, till the morning sun comes round". They loved it!


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## marieangela

Reading through some of the recent posts, I feel quite lucky to have a husband who is on the same page as me with atheism and parents who accept me. I may or may not have mentioned before that my father was a priest and my mother was a nun, both Catholic (Italian and Irish, respectively). My dad was on his way out anyway, and they met and decided to leave the church and marry. I was baptized by a priest friend of my father at our house and went to church on holidays until I was about 7 years old and decided that it was ridiculous, but that was about the extent of my religion. My dad is a retired sociology professor. He is a very open minded man and got me interested in native american sprituality, thus openning me up at a young age to the fact that there were many options out there. I always tended to look at religion academically, though. I wrote a pretty in depth paper on shamanism in college and also took a philosphy of religion course. I have found that as I have grown older and as my kids get a little older, I've become stonger and more open about my atheist beliefs. I, for one, was blown away in a very horrible way by Jesus Camp. My husband laughed at the disgusted, disbelieving look on my face while we watched. I am so glad that my parents didn't send my to ccd and make me go to church every week as a child. I never even imagined that a parent would send a child to a camp like that, or that such a camp existed.

One issue that I do have lately is that my husband wants to hold off on telling the boys anything at all about religion. Im worried about what they may or may not be picking up it school and think that we ought to give them some basic understanding of what it is possible to beleive and what we do and do not believe. I need to talk to my husband about this again and try and come up with the best way to go about giving them just enough info. I could definitely see my kindergartner announcing to his class that his mom and dad don't believe in god and don't understand why people go to church..

On another note, anyone else participating in "A Week" on facebook. I've been having some fun with it.


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## marieangela

Me again. I've got a bit of a dilemma. My family has been invited to a confirmation (or is it communion?) party for one of my second grader's friends. I know his mom through school and we are on friendly terms. She is nice. He is a good kid. Our boys aren't quite that good of friends any more, as they haven't been in the same class since kindergarten. We went to his birthday party a few weeks ago and now we're invited to this.

My main dilemma is that if we decide to go, what do I tell my boys? I don't even know what confirmation is really. I'm not sure what or how much to tell my boys. The mom is a facebook friend. So, she most likely noticed that I celebrated "A" week not long ago. If she's looked at my information she would have seen the pages freedom from religion, americans for the separation of church and state, dna fish, etc. Would it be offensive to tell her that we appreciate the invite, but since we're not a religious family and I don't want to hear too many questions from my 5 year old, we aren't going to be able to make it? Or just make up an excuse- plans with my mom that I had forgotten about? Just go and deal with the questions the best I can and hope my five year old doesn't blurt out anything embarassing to a bunch of religious people? And if so, give the friend a card? Money? I guess I need to do a little confirmation research...


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## KatWrangler

If the child is in 2nd grade, this would be for First Communion. Confirmation is later, like grade 5 (at least it was when I was growing up in the Catholic Church). Are you invited to the service at church? Or just the celebration after the ceremony? Or both. Why are you afraid of answering your child's questions?


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## marieangela

Thank you. Communion it is. I will look into that.

My two boys are very different. I can talk to my 8 year old (not just because of his age, but also his personality) and know that he will think about what I say and that he understands when it is and isn't appropriate to talk about things. My 5 year old is completely different. Whereas my 8 year old and I are reserved and introverted, he is friends with everyone, talks non-stop and is very sure of himself. Even if he has false information, he feels the need to tell everyone and proclaim the truth in what he says. Anything that I tell him will undoubtably be repeated to everyone that he talks to, perhaps as I tell it and perhaps distorted and modified.

There seem to be a large number of religious people at their public school. I get along with them just fine, but don't tend to talk religion (or politics) with most of them. I don't hide that I'm an atheist, but I don't jump into religious discussions either. I don't want there to be any issues with my kids or with my family because of the beliefs that my husband and I hold.

Also, there is the issue of my husband and I not seeing eye to eye on what to tell the kids and when. I know that they will be picking things up at school, if they aren't already, and would like them to have a bit of a foundation of our own beliefs. My husband wants to wait until they ask questions and then probably be vague or redirect them.. I'm sure part of his reluctance is due to our 5 year old's personality.

And I'm pretty sure we're just invited to the celebration.


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## MissMaegie'sMama

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KatWrangler*
> 
> * Why are you afraid of answering your child's questions?*


I'm wondering the same thing as well.

At 5, the explanation you give your son about his friend's First Communion need not be complicated. Why not just tell your son that his friend's family enjoys going to XYZ church, and that the friend's Communion is a special part of his membership in the church. If your DS asks why he doesn't get to have a First Communion, you can tell him it's because you aren't members of that church.

As far as not being sure whether you should attend the celebration, you will have to follow your heart on that one. I personally feel going would be a nice gesture on your part, but you certainly are not obligated to do so. Personally, I feel that choosing to not celebrate a friend's special occasion just because they have spiritual or religious beliefs that are different from mine is somewhat close-minded, and I will attend unless I find out that the ceremony involves something I find morally or ethically objectionable (which has never happened to me). Even if you don't believe in God or enjoy church, you may find the celebration that follows the ceremony to be enjoyable. There will almost certainly be other kids at the celebration, and it might be fun for your son to get together with other kids from school at a party (I have been to First Communion celebrations, and the only God/Jesus talk I head was from the priest during the ceremony itself, not at the celebratory party that followed the ceremony).

If you choose not to go, I would NOT tell her that it's because you don't believe what she believes. Unless she's forcing her beliefs on you and hounding you about your atheism, IMO that would be a pretty rude thing to say to someone you consider a casual friend. A happy medium might be to send the child a card recognizing the occasion, so his mom knows that you care about her child's special day, along with your regrets you can't attend.

HTH.


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## KatWrangler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MissMaegie'sMama*
> 
> I'm wondering the same thing as well.
> 
> At 5, the explanation you give your son about his friend's First Communion need not be complicated. Why not just tell your son that his friend's family enjoys going to XYZ church, and that the friend's Communion is a special part of his membership in the church. If your DS asks why he doesn't get to have a First Communion, you can tell him it's because you aren't members of that church.
> 
> As far as not being sure whether you should attend the celebration, you will have to follow your heart on that one. I personally feel going would be a nice gesture on your part, but you certainly are not obligated to do so. Personally, I feel that choosing to not celebrate a friend's special occasion just because they have spiritual or religious beliefs that are different from mine is somewhat close-minded, and I will attend unless I find out that the ceremony involves something I find morally or ethically objectionable (which has never happened to me). Even if you don't believe in God or enjoy church, you may find the celebration that follows the ceremony to be enjoyable. There will almost certainly be other kids at the celebration, and it might be fun for your son to get together with other kids from school at a party (I have been to First Communion celebrations, and the only God/Jesus talk I head was from the priest during the ceremony itself, not at the celebratory party that followed the ceremony).
> 
> If you choose not to go, I would NOT tell her that it's because you don't believe what she believes. Unless she's forcing her beliefs on you and hounding you about your atheism, IMO that would be a pretty rude thing to say to someone you consider a casual friend. A happy medium might be to send the child a card recognizing the occasion, so his mom knows that you care about her child's special day, along with your regrets you can't attend.
> 
> HTH.


Exactly what you said.


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## KatWrangler

Marie,

You mean you haven't discussed religion at all?

In our house we have discussed religion. That some people believe and others do not. We (my husband and I) do not believe. However, if they would like to explore their feelings on it, I/we will help them. We have neighbors that are Muslim. My kids have asked why she (the Mom) covers her hair.

I am getting a vibe that you are afraid to bring it up with your kids. Like it would be opening a can of worms.







Tell me if I am wrong. I can take it.


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## marieangela

I couldn't help but feel a bit attacked by some of the posts, so had to take a few days to think and regroup (introvert, here). I have talked to the boys (my daughter is only 2) about religion in vague terms. Different people practice and believe different things and we chose not to be involved in religion at all. Lots of your friends may go to church, but we don't. That sort of thing. I do plan to go to the communion party and deal with the possible embarassment to others that my middle child will bring. Indeed, I was overreacting a bit. Whatever comes of it will come and we will all survive.

It may be quite a while before he respects that it is not always appropriate to discuss certain things at certain times or with certain people. I know my son quite well and know that general questions and answers lead to many more and much more specific questions and answers. It is wonderful that he is so curious and I do want to encorage it, but forgive me if I don't quite feel comforable thinking of him talking to his friends at school about whatever he gets out of talks about vaginas, graveyards, religion and such. I do still need to talk to my husband about his reluctance to have me say anything to the kids about anything that will possible be controversial.


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## MissMaegie'sMama

I apologize if anything I wrote in my previous post came off as a personal attack. That was not my intent. However, I do feel that you initially framed your concern as having a problem with the fact that you were invited to your friend's son's First Communion because you aren't religious. With your most recent post, I'm understanding that the primary reason you are reluctant to attend the event is because you are really worried that your son will say something others may find offensive or embarassing. Completely understandable.

I suggest letting your friend know that while you plan you plan to attend the celebration, you may need to leave if your son becomes "overstimulated." I'm sure she will understand. You really don't need to mention that you don't share her religious convictions, because it's kind of immaterial in this case.

If you aren't attending the ceremony itself, but the celebration that follows, then your son might not notice the religious component. It's also a safe bet that if your friend invited you, then she also invited other non-Catholic guests. Probably there will be other attendees who have not attended a First Communion, along with kids who will be full of questions. IMO, it's also not really fair to your child to refrain from attending fun events because you're worried that he might say something embarassing. Remember, you son isn't the only kid out there without a strong mind-to-mouth filter. And he can't learn to control his compulsion to speak inappropriately if he doesn't have an opportunity to practice. If you hear him say something inappropriate, remind him that a party is not an appropriate place to use that language. I am not above telling my kids that if I hear that kind of language one more time, we're leaving.









All-in-all, it sounds like the real problem is your son's penchant for choosing inappropriate conversational topics in public, not your athesim.You may want to post to one of the parenting boards in this forum to get advice from other moms with children whose "appropriate for conversation" filter maybe have a few big gaps.


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## MichelleZB

Yay! I'm an atheist mom! I'd be interested in ramping this tribe back up!


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## saraheli

Hi, I'm new here. I'm an atheist mom and married to a Catholic.


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## Mama Soltera

Hi Sara. I am curious how you both make that work? I am single right now but I feel like a relationship (especially a marriage) could only work if he was agnostic too. Is he just Catholic by practice and culture but he doesn't literal believe in the teachings and philosophies? That seems like it would still be a real challenge. I'd love to hear more about this. Welcome, by the way.


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## Mama Soltera

Hi Sara. I am curious how you both make that work? I am single right now but I feel like a relationship (especially a marriage) could only work if he was agnostic too. Is he just Catholic by practice and culture but he doesn't literal believe in the teachings and philosophies? That seems like it would still be a real challenge. I'd love to hear more about this. Welcome, by the way.


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## saraheli

Thanks for the welcome Soltera. He still goes to church with his parents every Sunday. I think he believes in god, but not necessarily all the Catholic teachings. And religion is not a big thing in his life. I think he wants to honor his parents more than anything. We do the rituals. We had a Catholic wedding, shortest version possible. Our daughter was baptized. I don't mind those things, I just view them as more ways of getting together with family.


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## Mama Soltera

Thanks for your response, Sara. It's sounds like you are both pretty flexible and able to compromise (if only most marriages were like that!). Now I have another curiosity. How does he feel about your being agnostic?


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## triscuit

Been reading a bit here and there on this thread, it's a good one! We are both atheists (DH and I). Our son spend a fair amount of time with the grandparents who are Christian, he has gone to church with them a few times. It's cute because he likes to pray before meals (the holding hands part he is in to!) so when we do that at their house he likes it. We've also heard him randomly give thanks at that time to "monstaw truck"... hehehe.... Luckily the ILs don't pressure us at all. The community here is rather "spiritual" but not religious so thankfully it's not a weird issue when we meet people.

Anyhow... DH finally got to go to an atheist meeting in town a couple weeks ago and met some other parents of young children including a SAHD or two (DH is a SAHD), that was so good because it's been a struggle to find a place to fit in and meet people here. I STILL have not found a crunchy Mama meet-up, etc.


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## jerusha070707

I've recently "deconverted". I'm a bit sad to seethere isn't much activity here. I just wanted to say hi if anyone reads this.


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## mama24-7

I'm subbed & have read through the whole thread. Not sure why I haven't posted.

Anyway, I'm definitely agnostic w/ atheist leanings & DH is atheist. WE have three children & I know the oldest is an atheist, the 2nd probably is too & the third is three so I haven't asked him & we haven't discussed it much.

I wish this thread was more active.

One day when I sneezed, DH said, "whatever!" It was pretty funny. I want to say that too but it doesn't sound right in my head. I still say "blesh you," about half the time. The other half I say nothing.

We don't do religious holidays. And, late last year I learned through following Neil DeGrasse Tyson on twitter that "holiday," comes from "holy day." Makes me want a new name for it but haven't hit the thesaurus yet about it. Have a hard time saying it now, lol.

Okay, that's all for now. I remembered why I haven't posted yet - not much time for posting.









Thanks for the thread.

Sus


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## Katie8681

I didn't realize there was an atheist "tribe"! I'm happy to find it







hopefully we can get it active again. I count myself extremely fortunate to live in a liberal, far-outside-the-bible-belt place now, but most of my life I've lived in some churchy churchy places. I know what it's like to try to stay true to yourself while not being alienated from your community. I grew up Catholic but consider myself to have left it after I was Confirmed, as a teen. Went through the ceremony but that was the last time I was an active participant in a church service. As of now everyone else in my family are atheists, too. My DH is agnostic, sort of "spiritual but not religious". DS is a heathen .almost 2yr old







we have books from and about many religions around the house, right along with all the science and fiction (and science fiction) that he can check out when he wants. It's funny this thread should pop up today, because I had a highly unusual religious visit to my door that woke up napping DS (GRRR).

We totally do the mainstream holidays, though! We treat them more as seasonal markers than anything. They are fun ways to mark the yearly cycle and we are not yet at the point where DS wonders about the backstory. I agree with the previous poster about _needing_ Christmas to get past the suckiest part of winter, especially!

Nice to meet you all


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## triscuit

That's really interesting about holidays=holy days.

We had a funny event happen at Easter. For the past 2 years we did an Easter egg hunt at my ILs house, they are Christian. This year I was working and MIL called and she was like "when are yall coming over?" and I thought... huh... that's kind of "insistent" (we have a good relationship don't get me wrong) and she kept talking about it and finally I was like "What is going on that we need to come over for?" and she said "well Easter of course!!" and I was like... "That's what happens when you're a heathen!!"


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## jerusha070707

I haven't had the best experiences with religious family lately. Hopefully we can get this thread going some so I can have some interaction with rational people.


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## dakipode

I'd be happy to join in. I haven't read the older stuff.

I was raised atheist, it's pretty common in Belgium (where I'm from), and I still observe some of the catholic holidays (which is also a common practice for atheists in Belgium). I was lucky to find a DH who is sort of "eh" about religion, probably would label himself an agnostic.

We've already had the "religion" talk regarding the future kid and it was very short, we both agreed that religion doesn't have to play any role in our kid's life, i.e. doesn't need to be baptized, go to Sunday school etc.

Sometimes I do feel like I missed out, not having learned the bible stories since they are useful parables.

I find it interesting that in the US being an atheist is almost considered a worse offense than being gay and you really do sort of have to come out of the closet as a non-believer.

I look forward to some stimulating discussion with you all.


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## triscuit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dakipode*
> I find it interesting that in the US being an atheist is almost considered a worse offense than being gay and you really do sort of have to come out of the closet as a non-believer.


This is SOO true!!!!


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## jerusha070707

OK so i have a question for everyone. How do you deal with extended family members constantly telling your children stuff like "Jesus loves you", "God made you", or "look at all the pretty flowers god made"?


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## philomom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jerusha070707*
> 
> OK so i have a question for everyone. How do you deal with extended family members constantly telling your children stuff like "Jesus loves you", "God made you", or "look at all the pretty flowers god made"?


You see less of those relatives! Not kidding.


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## dakipode

I can't be of much help here because it doesn't really happen to me. On my side of the family everyone is atheist and the in-laws are out of state and not very religion oriented either.

Usually when someone makes a comment to me about being blessed or crediting god for whatever reason I either let it go and agree with them or I try to point out how the person had some responsibility in that situation as well and deserves some credit. It sort of depends on who I'm talking to and the vibe I get about the depth of their faith.

I intend to raise my kid with an understanding that other people believe in god and that's not wrong just different and that he can respectfully disagree or just let it go and not comment. And maybe make it clear that if he doesn't want to confront the person in question he is always welcome to ask me about it (I imagine a situation like a death where people say that person went to heaven. I wouldn't want my kid to argue with them about that but I would want him to come ask me about it)


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## jerusha070707

My extended family in particular is very religious. There are 5 pastors on my moms side alone. My father is also a pastor. I will be spending the weekend with them. It will be the first time ill be seeing most my family after my recent "coming out".
I don't imagine it going well. Was just looking for others opinions on how to deal with things being said to my kids (3 1/2 yr old twins and a 2 yr old). The kids already try to pray before meals and all after being around my husband's family.


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## jerusha070707

If I went the route of not seeing my religious relatives much that would include everyone in mine and my husbands families.


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## triscuit

I agree with everything dakipode said. Mine is almost 3, and for him, when MIL talks about god, prays, credits god, etc... I let it go and then later L does not even remember/say anything. If he did then we could talk about it later, but one thing to keep in mind is that respecting their beliefs can include not calling them out on stuff, questioning it and/or finding yourselves in heated discussions over something that for them is innocuous. That's how they *think* reality is, so for them saying stuff like that may not be any type of passive-aggressive jab. If you get the feeling it is, you could always have a private discussion later after the kids go to bed. If not..... and they start calling you out on stuff you say from an atheist POV... you could always say this is how I'm treating you, I'd ask for the same respect. Good luck.


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## Katie8681

I think if you must be around religious family members a lot, and you're not comfortable with the amount of religious talk to your kids, one alternative is to pull people aside for a private chat in which you ask them to lay off the God talk. I don't know from experience exactly, but my guess is that this will lead to serious unpleasantness. I feel bad for you, jerusha! My suggestion is to let it go in the moment and talk to your kids about your beliefs after the fact. Eventually your kids may question those family members' statements on their own.


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## jerusha070707

Where is everyone from?


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## mama amie

New to this. Can I just say that I am pleased to see over 30 pages on this thread? YAY! So much to read and think about! My mother is a Christian minister, and I've been questioning her beliefs (sometimes antagonistically) for as long as I can remember. I guess I'm agnostic, as I can't personally disprove the existence of God, but I don't have strong evidence to the contrary. It is a bit tricky to navigate with young ones, but we seem to manage. Santa is a known tradition, and we love winter decorations, but choose not to pretend gifts need to magically appear. All questions are answered as openly as possible and with due respect.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *expat-mama*
> 
> Hello Atheists and Agnostics!
> 
> A while ago we were talking about books either to guide us in raising our children as free-thinkers and compassionate, moral and respectful atheists/agnostics or for the kids themselves. I found a few books for kids recently while browsing some humanist websites. Here they are and they look awesome, can't wait to get them. I think they are for older kids (pre-teen or teen), but I think reading them to younger kids could introduce some concepts and ideas that would be beneficial if you guide them along.
> 
> What About Gods?
> 
> Humanism, What's That? A Book for Curious Kids
> 
> Maybe Right, Maybe Wrong: A Guide for Young Thinkers
> 
> Maybe Yes, Maybe No: A Guide for Young Skeptics
> 
> If anyone has read these books let me know how you liked them. Reading the descriptions and reviews on Amazons has made me really excited to read them. They're on my wish list for now.


I am so bummed that these are not available at the library. I have been trying to find such stuff to read before buying, but it just isn't easy to search without specific titles. Sigh... No shortage of material for "believers", though.


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## triscuit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jerusha070707*
> 
> Where is everyone from?


I'm from Durango. You can also look on the side under the post count and if a member has given a location it will show there.


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## chrisnjeri

Hi! I've just found out about this tribe, glad to find some like-minded mamas out there. I'm in Lincoln, Nebraska and have a 2 year old daughter. We haven't had to deal much with our family members reminding our little one what a 'blessing' and 'miracle' she is (we weren't supposed to have children). We were told so many times while I was pregnant and while she was an infant that she is such a miracle that we finally had to tell family that they had to stop saying that. Our daughter is amazing, but we like her to know that she is incredible for who she is and how she interacts with the world, and that all people are incredible. I tried going to a Unitarian church here so she could be raised with that community (my husband is Episcopal, but I don't want her to go to that church unless we can take her to many different churches of differing faiths for the exposure), but they were a little too insistent on me being more active in the community than I was yet ready for.

Do any of you find it hard being part of a community when you don't share religious views? There is a great unschooling community here, and while we do participate in some of the activities, they often come back to some aspect of Christianity and I feel like the odd ball out. I've recently closed my facebook account because I thought some of the local folks I met through the unschooling and AP groups could be good matches for our family, but it just isn't working out and I'm feeling a bit isolated. How do you find community being an atheist with kids? Have you found one?


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## triscuit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chrisnjeri*
> How do you find community being an atheist with kids? Have you found one?


I'm jealous of your unschooling community, religious or not! There are unschoolers in our area but our area has a weird culture and it's not a very strong consistent group. Anyway... thankfully there is an atheist meetup every month and my DH has gone and met a few others with kids (young kids, like our son) including a SAHD or two like my DH. My son is about to turn 3, I do refer to him as a blessing, because in a way I do feel like I am blessed to have one (we struggled with secondary IF) but luckily no one said any of the miracle stuff, that would of gotten on my nerves after awhile too.


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## mama24-7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chrisnjeri*
> Do any of you find it hard being part of a community when you don't share religious views? There is a great unschooling community here, and while we do participate in some of the activities, they often come back to some aspect of Christianity and I feel like the odd ball out. I've recently closed my facebook account because I thought some of the local folks I met through the unschooling and AP groups could be good matches for our family, but it just isn't working out and I'm feeling a bit isolated. How do you find community being an atheist with kids? Have you found one?


I've come to the conclusion that I'm not going to find a group of people that think like me on most/all of the things I think are a big deal: education, atheism/agnosticismc, voluntaryism, consensual living, genital integrity, etc. I'm a part of a homeschool co-op & we're almost done our second year. It's been a revolving door of people coming & going. There's only one other family who has been a part of it along w/ me, since the beginning. When dh & I decided our children would not go to school, it wasn't because we didn't want them to be around other children. Well, trying to find others who make helping home educated children make & keep friends has been a challenge to say the least. So many are too busy w/ their other school-at-home priorities. There is a looooooot of religious homeschooling around here too.









We are considering moving to a state where the home ed laws aren't as restrictive (from PA to NC). That's part of the reason I want to move. I'm tired of putting so much time/energy into preparing the paperwork needed to prove I'm educating my child & it's going to get worse next year when I have two to prove it for. If we move & I find other atheists/agnostics, well, I'll just be all the happier!









Best wishes,

Sus


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## cynthiamoon

Hi everyone!!

I am joining this thread now to see what's up in the atheist moms world  - We are first time parents, both atheists with one set of secular Jewish parents, and one set of very devout Christian parents. We are looking forward to lots of interesting issues with this topic! 

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *chrisnjeri*
> 
> Do any of you find it hard being part of a community when you don't share religious views? There is a great unschooling community here, and while we do participate in some of the activities, they often come back to some aspect of Christianity and I feel like the odd ball out. I've recently closed my facebook account because I thought some of the local folks I met through the unschooling and AP groups could be good matches for our family, but it just isn't working out and I'm feeling a bit isolated. How do you find community being an atheist with kids? Have you found one?


I am in Colorado, and though I know a lot of atheists, what I seem to find troublesome is that without religion there aren't that many *structured* communities for us to be a part of. I grew up in church, and my parents continue to be active in theirs, and I can't help but be jealous of the fellowship they enjoy. I think it's hard because atheists, generally speaking, have little else in common! Religions can come with a nice, built in commonality that makes fellowship easier.

I am also finding it hard to be a part of mom's groups though. Around here, even the religious ones are fairly progressive and relatable in lots of ways, but I am not sure how to broach the topic when it comes up. I usually just get quiet and feel left out until the topic changes again.

We've contemplated starting some kind of Salon or "Atheist Sunday School" to have a place for discussion and community building, but I am worried people will think I am a wannabe cult leader.


----------



## lmk1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cynthiamoon*
> 
> I am in Colorado, and though I know a lot of atheists, what I seem to find troublesome is that without religion there aren't that many *structured* communities for us to be a part of. I grew up in church, and my parents continue to be active in theirs, and I can't help but be jealous of the fellowship they enjoy. I think it's hard because atheists, generally speaking, have little else in common! Religions can come with a nice, built in commonality that makes fellowship easier.
> 
> I am also finding it hard to be a part of mom's groups though. Around here, even the religious ones are fairly progressive and relatable in lots of ways, but I am not sure how to broach the topic when it comes up. I usually just get quiet and feel left out until the topic changes again.
> 
> We've contemplated starting some kind of Salon or "Atheist Sunday School" to have a place for discussion and community building, but I am worried people will think I am a wannabe cult leader.


Wherever we've lived, once we had kids, we've joined "Secular Families" groups through meetup.com. Are you anywhere close to Denver / Boulder area?


----------



## cynthiamoon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lmk1*
> 
> Wherever we've lived, once we had kids, we've joined "Secular Families" groups through meetup.com. Are you anywhere close to Denver / Boulder area?


We live in Denver. Do you know of a nice group we might join? My attempts on meetup.com so far have been to find other young moms, and I've noticed it's hard to tell an active group from an inactive one, and sponsored "meetups" (ie. paid workshops and classes) from real meetups. Maybe that's just in the momverse though.


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## SierraBella

Hi Everyone.. I'm new to this group, and I have a question..

How do you all feel about being agnostic/atheist and having large families? Where I am from, only the religious people have many kids (I don't know how many, "many" is to all of you, but for me it's more than 3-4). I feel a little weird about wanting to add another to my family, which would make 4 children. But we really do want one more, and try for a girl as well (My oldest 2 are with my ex, and I have one with my DH). Thoughts?


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## mama amie

Cynthiamoon:

"We've contemplated starting some kind of Salon or "Atheist Sunday School" to have a place for discussion and community building, but I am worried people will think I am a wannabe cult leader. "

I think there might be enough common interests in place for you to look into anarchist/socialist type groups to find more moms. I have been thinking of participating in Food Not Bombs with my kiddos, since it is a secular community service/volunteer opportunity. This is simply my personal answer to where to find somewhat like minded freethinkers.


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## dakipode

*Sierra*, I think the number of kids you have is such a personal choice and whether that is informed by religion or not is not an issue.

*MamaAmie*, to me "anarchist" and "socialist" are more politically oriented than say "humanist" in terms of looking for a group that's focused on what it means to be atheist. I don't feel that the former two would question morals and values of atheism as much as the latter would.

Now I realize that since I didn't grow up in the US I don't know anything about the school system. Do they not teach religion classes in the curriculum? In Belgium we had a choice between religion (i.e. Catholicism) and "non-confessional morals" class. Later on they added Islam and some other religion since they were required to cater to the students.


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## mama amie

Oh, definitely agree. However, as far as accessible, pre-formed communities go, the anarchist groups seem to be the more closely aligned to many atheists, ethically speaking. I WISH there was a humanist or freethinking group of families that I could easily meet up with. I've found the occasional visit to our local anarchist businesses to be a good place to bump into such folks. But I am personally not identified as anarchist or socialist.


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## cynthiamoon

They shouldn't teach religion in schools in the US, but sometimes they do, and sometimes I wish they would have some sort of theological survey that also includes secular phylosophy and atheism.

Usually, if you hear about religions in schools here, it's because someone broke with Sepparation of State and there's scandal.


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## triscuit

We were taught religion in PS, explaining the different types and how they correlated with history. Ex: church of England. I thought it was interesting.


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## Cyllya

Quote:


> We don't do religious holidays. And, late last year I learned through following Neil DeGrasse Tyson on twitter that "holiday," comes from "holy day." Makes me want a new name for it but haven't hit the thesaurus yet about it. Have a hard time saying it now, lol.


Our culture's religious background has had such an effect on our language that it's pretty hard to avoid. Particularly, the word "goodbye" is a contraction of "God be with ye." (Seriously!) I guess you can start saying "farewell."

(Irrelevant sidenote: This got me interested in looking up a list of seemingly secular words with religious etymology. I couldn't find such a list, but I did accidentally stumble upon the fact that "avocado" is dirived from a Nuatl term meaning "testicle tree." It was āhuacacuahuitl, shortened to just āhuacatl. Just thought you guys might like to know this interesting fact.)


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## mama24-7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyllya*
> 
> Our culture's religious background has had such an effect on our language that it's pretty hard to avoid. Particularly, the word "goodbye" is a contraction of "God be with ye." (Seriously!) I guess you can start saying "farewell."
> 
> (Irrelevant sidenote: This got me interested in looking up a list of seemingly secular words with religious etymology. I couldn't find such a list, but I did accidentally stumble upon the fact that "avocado" is dirived from a Nuatl term meaning "testicle tree." It was āhuacacuahuitl, shortened to just āhuacatl. Just thought you guys might like to know this interesting fact.)


That's it! Time to start a completely secular language! First assignment: new words for "holiday," & "goodbye." Who's in?







If we don't, how am I going to keep talking to people?









Very interesting stuff. My kids always ask, "where'd that word come from?" I'm going to have to look these up more often!

Thanks for sharing.

Sus


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## Katie8681

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SierraBella*
> 
> Hi Everyone.. I'm new to this group, and I have a question..
> 
> How do you all feel about being agnostic/atheist and having large families? Where I am from, only the religious people have many kids (I don't know how many, "many" is to all of you, but for me it's more than 3-4). I feel a little weird about wanting to add another to my family, which would make 4 children. But we really do want one more, and try for a girl as well (My oldest 2 are with my ex, and I have one with my DH). Thoughts?


Why the heck not?! A fine reason to have more kids is, "I love kids, I have the resources to care for more, and... my partner and I want to!" You may find yourself lumped in with religious people on first glance, but why should that impact your decision? The people who matter don't mind, and the people who mind don't matter.


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## joyfulgrrrl

Agree! I've got five kids,and give zero f-cks what anyone thinks of that.

If you want a fourth, have a fourth.


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## triscuit

Thought you guys may get a kick out of this. So DH's parents are pretty religious and recently DS has been known to say "God made me/us." DH and I are like totally rolling our eyes and we don't make an issue of it (with him) except to say "Mommy made you." He usually says "oh yeah, in her belly...". We haven't yet said anything to MIL but I KNOW she totally feels like she 'failed' DH because he didn't end up a Christian and now since she helps with DS (he is 3.5 yrs old btw) by watching him a couple days a week I know she feels like she has a lot of influence on him (well, she does!) and so she is choosing to do this. I already know that she reads the bible to him when he stays over (sometimes he stays at her house when we want to have a night to ourselves/date night/date trip/whatever because one time DS told me that the little bible by the bed he sleeps in has a story about "green pastures". It really is pretty cute, and harmless for now, but I can see it being more of an issue down the road.... we'll see!!!


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## dakipode

oooh, I don't know how comfortable I would feel with that. Is she pretty hard core about her beliefs and telling your DS that her way is the only right way? On the one hand I wouldn't mind having my son learn the lessons of how to be a good person from bible stories, on the other hand I'd worry about fanatical indoctrination that Christianity is good and everything/everybody else is bad.


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## Katie8681

I think you're doing the right thing by not making a big conflict over it. Go down that road and by the time your son is a teenager he'll be rebelling by going evangelical!


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## cynthiamoon

Yeah... If my mom was DDs primary caregiver, I would not be happy with the early indoctrination. I would also not support total censorship though. I want my daughter to know Judaism and Christianity ( the two faiths in our extended family) but not to be told day in and out that one f those is the Truth. That would make me really upset.


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## triscuit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dakipode*
> 
> oooh, I don't know how comfortable I would feel with that. Is she pretty hard core about her beliefs and telling your DS that her way is the only right way? On the one hand I wouldn't mind having my son learn the lessons of how to be a good person from bible stories, on the other hand I'd worry about fanatical indoctrination that Christianity is good and everything/everybody else is bad.


Well they (ILs) aren't that hardcore as in like, legalistic, but they are hardcore in that without a shadow of a doubt they feel like 'know' the truth personally and there is no reason for doubt. At this point (at his age) it's definitely not a "this is the only right way" but more like she's stating truths (to her) like "god made us." Which kind of makes me gag, but it's a relatively minor infraction than what she could be doing/saying/teaching him. Now of course I don't know if that's the only thing she's said to him... I know they pray at their house too, but to me that is more like that's fine for him to be exposed to people practicing a faith because everyone is different and some people will do that. In addition to us responding with stuff like "Mommy made you [in her belly]." We've also just told him, "That's what Grammie thinks, but we don't know for sure."

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Katie8681*
> 
> I think you're doing the right thing by not making a big conflict over it. Go down that road and by the time your son is a teenager he'll be rebelling by going evangelical!


Hahaha!! Yeah I definitely don't want that to happen!!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cynthiamoon*
> 
> Yeah... If my mom was DDs primary caregiver, I would not be happy with the early indoctrination. I would also not support total censorship though. I want my daughter to know Judaism and Christianity ( the two faiths in our extended family) but not to be told day in and out that one f those is the Truth. That would make me really upset.


Yeah I don't really want to censor her, if I look at it from her perspective it would be almost absurd for me to tell her she couldn't share her faith with him, since I know it's a bit part of her life and the basis of her worldview (fortunately or unfortunately). Their family prays and when we go over we "pray" with them to be respectful, so DS cooperates with that and I feel that's appropriate. He can listen to stories, etc. But I tell you what would make me very upset and where I feel the line would be crossed is if she started like shaming him using her faith or teaching him that for instance homosexuality is bad because God said so, etc. I honestly can't imagine her ever having the propensity to do this, but I guess that is the line for me.


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## triscuit

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cynthiamoon*
> 
> I am in Colorado, and though I know a lot of atheists, what I seem to find troublesome is that without religion there aren't that many *structured* communities for us to be a part of. I grew up in church, and my parents continue to be active in theirs, and I can't help but be jealous of the fellowship they enjoy. I think it's hard because atheists, generally speaking, have little else in common! Religions can come with a nice, built in commonality that makes fellowship easier.
> 
> We've contemplated starting some kind of Salon or "Atheist Sunday School" to have a place for discussion and community building, but I am worried people will think I am a wannabe cult leader.


Kind of an older post but I just saw this and totally agree. I'm in Durango and while it's not really a super religious environment anyway... the easiest way to really get plugged in it seems is church!! I am super jealous of that fellowship and networking. It's taken me just about the whole time I've lived here (3 years!) to find a Moms group and I am having some success with that (though it's mostly SAHMs so most stuff that is planned occurs when I'm working, naturally!) but yeah it would be so nice to find a group like what you are talking about in your 2nd paragraph. 
In one aspect I'm kind of "glad" to find out it's similar in Denver because we always think of Denver as this great wonderful place with lots of people that naturally there would be more opportunities. So haha it's kind of "nice" to find out it's not as great as I'm thinking, I don't know if that makes any sense... but it's just a bummer for the both of us!


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## Earthyone

Hi and just wanted to say that I'm happy to see this tribe exists :thumb


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