# Am I not allowed to have an opinion/view?



## TerraNoelle (Oct 9, 2007)

*I find more and more that really need to get on here much more and post because from what I've read this wonderful board fits my AP style parenting much more than other boards that I belong too!

Anyway...I do belong to a few other boards....a couple are more AP'ish, a couple are mainstream mostly with 1 or 2 AP'ers...I ended up leaving one board last week all together because of the whole CIO issue...

Which brings me to my post! I'd sure appreciate some "loving" but "gentle discipline" advice!!









So the issue of CIO came up [well it had many times before but I mostly kept my stronger opinions of it to myself.] Well once again on the mainstream board it came up when a mother was sharing how her son was finally STTN because she did the CIO approach...and many of the women were actually praising it's merits...and saying it really helps and how babies "need" boundaries" and babies function "best" on a schedule....
So finally I could not keep my mouth shut any longer....my first post basically said, CIO is not an option in our home after reading much research and especially seeing the negative affects such as anxiety and depression later in life because of it....

Well I guess you can see that I started a war by this and suddenly I was saying that they were "abusing" their children....
I was quite taken aback by this point and did say that I did NOT think it was abuse, but I did think it was neglectful IMO....
And of course that didn't go over well either [it's a mainstream board afterall!]...

They just could not get over the fact that I thought it was neglectful and they saying in disbelief that they couldn't believe I was telling them all they were neglecting their children...
I definently could have been more clear on what I mean by neglect [I meant more to the effect that I thought it was the easier way out, short term success with long term negative consequences...not such much that I thought they were out right neglecting their children]....

But I do have admit...in my opinion...I DO think it is somewhat neglectful and feel there is a better way!

Sure we all get frustrated and sometimes which our munchkins would just be perfect but after all they are just growing and learning so much...why do people want them to grow up so fast?

Okay....now....I was a complete butthole wasn't I???? I felt really bad and sent an apology specifically to the young lady I had deeply hurt and to the board [I am still gone from it...have no desire to go back since really we don't have much in common and it IS a parenting board]....I've left her a phone message as well...

Well a friend from that board who is thankfully AP like me told me she posted that she needed more than apology...

What on earth more can I do? Okay, I did tell her I should have just kept my mouth shut and I was so sorry [much more lengthy though in the message of apology! lol]...
But geez...I just don't know what else to do! At first they all said "Yes, we have a right to our opinions, but you should have not said what you think"....
Okay fair enough....but it sounds like now since my apology was not enough they want me to change my opinion and I won't do that....

So am I not allowed to have an opinon apparently? Don't they realize that when they say babies function "best" this way or that way they are making judgements as well?

Gosh I am so rambling!
Any of you wise AP mamas every encounter this at all??
What advice/input can you offer?

Is it bad of me to mostly want to hang around other AP moms IRL and online because I just so hate friction like that and undoubtly the issue of parenting comes up and most people just don't want to hear AP because mainstream is so ingrained!









I feel like such an idiot right now for hurting her though!*


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I don't think there's much else you can do at this point. You don't fit in on that board, and you do fit in on this one. Why spend so much time butting heads online when you can spend that time getting supported instead?


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

one of the hardest things in life is letting go of guilty feeling when you hurt someone with a truthful statement








Try to focus on other things, and let go


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

you have to wonder, if someone was SO deeply hurt by what you wrote, that she may be experiencing some second thoughts and/or misgivings about what she has been doing with her child.

cognitive dissonance does that to a person.

and it's not for you to fix. it is her issue, not yours.










and







!!


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

I've also recently left a board over similar issues.

It's not your fault they feel guilty. They know that CIO isn't the best for their child - but they make up reasons to do it. Then they make each other feel better about it.

So they get very angry when someone calls them on it.

That's not your problem. You didn't need to apologise for saying something you can back up with scientific facts. .


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

I don't think you did ANYTHING wrong. CIO is a form of abuse and it is certainly neglectful, but it's willful neglect, which is even more baffling. I agree that her excessive response is a sign of guilt.


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## TerraNoelle (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 
*one of the hardest things in life is letting go of guilty feeling when you hurt someone with a truthful statement*








Try to focus on other things, and let go









*What a profound statement! I think it hits the nail on the head!! Thank you gals so much!

I just needed a check really to see if my opinion of CIO is a little to harsh....I just feel that strongly about it....*


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## TerraNoelle (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
I've also recently left a board over similar issues.

It's not your fault they feel guilty. They know that CIO isn't the best for their child - but they make up reasons to do it. *Then they make each other feel better about it.*
So they get very angry when someone calls them on it.

That's not your problem. You didn't need to apologise for saying something you can back up with scientific facts. .

*OMG!!! This is so what happened too....they all rallied around and to try to bring back the "warm fuzzy feeling" by saying it was okay and couple of nights is not big deal!!!!! crazy!!

Thanks for the warm welcome too everyone!!!







*


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## violet (Nov 19, 2001)

_Then they make each other feel better about it._

I have a lactation consultant friend who lurks on a icky icky ezzo board to keep an eye out for - I'm not really sure what - -but she talks about the dangers of chat/message boards in that they create their own truths. One ma says "my baby looks kinda thin" and another says, "mine does too" and another says "me too" and suddenly thin babies are the new normal. it's a self selecting group that already subscribe to an idea set and the chat reinforces their truths. so nursing every 3 hours on a schedule and having a thin baby who cries it out is normal over there. wth.

But then, what does that mean for us over here? are we just more enlightened or on the true path?







I of course think so or I wouldn't be here. But I think it's also important that we all do look to research, parenting books by reputable people who also look at research, indigenous cultures, centuries of parenting history, and still use a bit of common sense to figure out what is "true" before, during, and after we engage in a message board or philosophy of parenting of any sort. That's why I'm here of all places, because MDC continues to represent the most truths of parenting as I see it.

so yeah for you for saying what you feel and know to be true. cyber world is a minefield when it comes to the ettiquette of expression. there's no real good way to disagree online- it so often seems to come off as antagonistic or condescending or mean, even when heartfelt. and props for the apology. that really is all you could do. or maybe send her a cyber flower basket. really, she wants more than an apology? I teach my babes to make amends by making things right and discussing solutions for not repeating. so what would that look like? ummm an apology?

don't let it get you down i say. stay over here where people think for a change


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## TerraNoelle (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *violet* 
_Then they make each other feel better about it._

I have a lactation consultant friend who lurks on *a icky icky ezzo board* to keep an eye out for - I'm not really sure what - -but she talks about the dangers of chat/message boards in that they create their own truths. One ma says "my baby looks kinda thin" and another says, "mine does too" and another says "me too" and suddenly thin babies are the new normal. it's a self selecting group that already subscribe to an idea set and the chat reinforces their truths. so nursing every 3 hours on a schedule and having a thin baby who cries it out is normal over there. wth.

*But then, what does that mean for us over here? are we just more enlightened or on the true path?







I of course think so or I wouldn't be here. But I think it's also important that we all do look to research, parenting books by reputable people who also look at research, indigenous cultures, centuries of parenting history, and still use a bit of common sense to figure out what is "true" before, during, and after we engage in a message board or philosophy of parenting of any sort. That's why I'm here of all places, because MDC continues to represent the most truths of parenting as I see it.*
so yeah for you for saying what you feel and know to be true. cyber world is a minefield when it comes to the ettiquette of expression. there's no real good way to disagree online- it so often seems to come off as antagonistic or condescending or mean, even when heartfelt. and props for the apology. that really is all you could do. or maybe send her a cyber flower basket. really, she wants more than an apology? I teach my babes to make amends by making things right and discussing solutions for not repeating. so what would that look like? ummm an apology?

don't let it get you down i say. stay over here where people think for a change









*Icky icky is right!!! I read several different books when I was pregnant with DS and right away my gut told me that his parenting train of thought went against all motherly instincts!!! Ick!!

GREAT paragraph!! and I totally agree!!!! You know I even pointed out how in other cultures they DO consider CIO as neglect as well, it's not just something I made up off the top of my head. I have several friends I met in college from various parts of Central/South America and African and ALL of them said this [we were talking about parenting one day!] They were actually shocked at how uncommon it is here to co sleep...they couldn't believe that babies were put away in other rooms to sleep apart from the parents, let alone left to cry! It was quite enlightening to me because this was several years before my son was ever even thought of!

You know what else I'm finding that I like here is that I CAN ask for input and say "Hey I may not be doing this correctly or the best way, can you help me out"...and I'm actually OPEN to the new advice!!! Something not really done on mainstream boards....*


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TerraNoelle14* 
CIO is not an option in our home after reading much research and especially seeing the negative affects such as anxiety and depression later in life because of it....


Do you have any links to studies backing this up? I'd be REALLY interested if you do. I've never heard of that. I know my mom was left to cio as a baby, but I don't think my brother and I were. But I now wonder if CIO caused any of my mom's problems.

I'm against CIO, btw.


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## TerraNoelle (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelcat* 
Do you have any links to studies backing this up? I'd be REALLY interested if you do. I've never heard of that. I know my mom was left to cio as a baby, but I don't think my brother and I were. But I now wonder if CIO caused any of my mom's problems.

I'm against CIO, btw.

Let me dig it up for you! The one I read was from Harvard Researchers I believe...I know there is more out there, but I don't have all those other links...I'm hoping someone will share more with me too!! LOL....

Okay, let me go find it for you!!

YOu know, I often wonder if some of my DH's issues are not partially from that too [as well as a dysfunctional home]....and I have MANY family members who did this routinely with their children over anything and they have those issues! Kind of scary!


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## TerraNoelle (Oct 9, 2007)

Okay, here is the link for you to the one I know about.

http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/1...enNeedTou.html


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TerraNoelle14* 
Let me dig it up for you! The one I read was from Harvard Researchers I believe...I know there is more out there, but I don't have all those other links...I'm hoping someone will share more with me too!! LOL....

Okay, let me go find it for you!!

YOu know, I often wonder if some of my DH's issues are not partially from that too [as well as a dysfunctional home]....and I have MANY family members who did this routinely with their children over anything and they have those issues! Kind of scary!

Thanks.

It seems to be hereditary in my famaily, both my brother and I are on antidepressants) but I dunno. Like I said, I don't know if we were allowed to cio. I know I was very colicky the first few weeks.

I do know my mom was left to cio, as my 94 yr old grandma still talks about it. My grandpa put her bassinet out in the hall or another room and closed the door, and that was that. It really upset my grandma, I think.

I am very glad I never left my daughter to cio.


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## TerraNoelle (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelcat* 
Thanks.

It seems to be hereditary in my famaily, both my brother and I are on antidepressants) but I dunno. Like I said, I don't know if we were allowed to cio. I know I was very colicky the first few weeks.

I do know my mom was left to cio, as my 94 yr old grandma still talks about it. My grandpa put her bassinet out in the hall or another room and closed the door, and that was that. It really upset my grandma, I think.

I am very glad I never left my daughter to cio.

It is in my DH's family too...He's good about keeping in check but his father has issues sadly...

Oh that's so sad about your grandma and mom....I've heard similar stories about how that was done and later in life it was deeply regretted.
I remember reading one ladies account on the babywearer, how an elderly lady approached her and was just gushing over her wearing her baby in sling...and she said this lady just started tearing up and said in her day you were encouraged to not hold your baby and when they were fussy they would put them in the hallway or another room to CIO while the adults did whatever they were doing...and she went on to say how she wished she had not listened to everyone and followed her instinct to pick up her babies....I was in tears just reading it...


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## onyxravnos (Dec 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kidspiration* 
you have to wonder, if someone was SO deeply hurt by what you wrote, that she may be experiencing some second thoughts and/or misgivings about what she has been doing with her child.

!

yeah. if she felt what she was doing was right she would not of been hurt by it. when people tell me i'm spoling my children by APing or say im ruining them beacuse we co sleep i dont get hurt beacuase i know i'm right and they are wrong. personally i never would of apologized at all.


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

I think we have to be careful how we say things. I'm a natural/home birth advocate, yet I don't want moms who have epidurals or cesareans to feel that I'm critical of their birth experiences. I try to think the same way about most parenting decisions (physical pain is where I have problems-spanking, circ, but I try to come across as non-judgmental as I can in mainstream circles). I can share why I don't do things a certain way without making other people feel that I think they're abusive for doing things a different way, and I think people are more likely to listen that way.


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## blissful_maia (Feb 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TerraNoelle14* 
Well I guess you can see that I started a war by this and suddenly I was saying that they were "abusing" their children....
I was quite taken aback by this point and did say that I did NOT think it was abuse, but I did think it was neglectful IMO....

Well you're a bigger person than I, I would have said "um, yeah, I do consider CIO child abuse". Anyhow, you should just hang out here with us radical attached parents.


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## TerraNoelle (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onyxravnos* 
yeah. if she felt what she was doing was right she would not of been hurt by it. when people tell me i'm spoling my children by APing or say im ruining them beacuse we co sleep i dont get hurt beacuase i know i'm right and they are wrong. personally i never would of apologized at all.

*Oh man, let me admit that I did NOT want to apologize really...but I did just so they could have that warm fuzzy feeling [which is another reason I left so they wouldn't have to hear anymore "dreadful" AP talk...God forbid!! LOL...isn't that horrible of me....I even told my AP friend on there that I didn't really mean it...terrible I know!!!! Eh, look what it got me...it's not good enough and she wants more!! LOL...
*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
I think we have to be careful how we say things. I'm a natural/home birth advocate, yet I don't want moms who have epidurals or cesareans to feel that I'm critical of their birth experiences. I try to think the same way about most parenting decisions (physical pain is where I have problems-spanking, circ, but I try to come across as non-judgmental as I can in mainstream circles). I can share why I don't do things a certain way without making other people feel that I think they're abusive for doing things a different way, and I think people are more likely to listen that way.

*I very much agree....sadly, I'm not the most tactful person!! I can tell by your post that you are awesome at this!!!







I wish I were! And goodness let me just say you are my hero....how bad is it that homebirths/natural births are hard for me BUT I feel it is the BEST choice for the safety and health of both baby and mother!! I wanted a natural birth orginally.....everything looked great at first...my water broke....I went 7 hours with not one contraction or even cramp!! They started pitocin and I went from zero pain to minute and half contractions every minute apart in about 5 minutes!!! I went 3 hours unmedicated and I just caved...BAD ME!!! I felt terrible....I got the EPI....I was at 5cm...as soon as I got the EPI I feel asleep...one hour later exactly I woke up to 10cm and ready to push...the EPI had worn off pretty much and they didn't turn it back on so I could push...I did great...DS turned sunny side up and his head was crooked and stuck...I pushed and moved around for 2 1/2 hours and he did not budge the ENTIRE 2 1/2 hours......sadly I ended in a C section....well goodness...I just gave you my birth story!! lol....anyway...all that to say....I do need to be mindful of how I say things because parenting is a journey and I really want to share positively information that I have learned and how I applied it to my own parenting!*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blissful_maia* 
Well you're a bigger person than I, I would have said "um, yeah, I do consider CIO child abuse". Anyhow, you should just hang out here with us radical attached parents.









*he he....you know....to them I pretty much said that anyway!! Hey I love radical attached parents!!!







*


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TerraNoelle14* 
Okay, here is the link for you to the one I know about.

http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/1...enNeedTou.html


I missed this untuil just now, as we posted at the same time.

Thanks for the link. That was very interesting.


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## TerraNoelle (Oct 9, 2007)

You're welcome!! I noticed in the Nighttime forum they have a CIO sticky thread with links...I'm going to check it out!....Hopefully I'll learn even more


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

The Science of Parenting by Margot Sunderland is an excellent book full of studies and references backing up the fact that CIO can lead to serious problems later in life.


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## kikidee (Apr 15, 2007)

Oh I have such a hard time w/ this, too. I probably also would have apologized and tried to make it "right" with everyone.

It's tough - I have mainstream friends and I also belong to a mainstream message board. It's a bit of a double standard, because somehow it's okay for them to say that it's wussy to "give in" to your child's cries at night, but it's not okay to say it's neglectful to let the child cry?

It's something I am still mulling over and analyzing. I think like others have said, a big part of it is that they feel defensive of the choices they make, b/c maybe somewhere deep down inside, they don't feel they were right. I have no idea. That sounds arrogant of me, I suppose (like "I'm right and they're wrong") -- but a lot of times when I hear women talking about CIO, there is a lot of reassurance and building up of each other.. there is a thin layer of insecurity/guilt apparent every time I have witnessed this conversation.

But I'm sorry you lost some friends. I hope you are feeling better about the situation, and are getting some good information about CIO.


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## Xoe (Oct 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
I think we have to be careful how we say things. I'm a natural/home birth advocate, yet I don't want moms who have epidurals or cesareans to feel that I'm critical of their birth experiences. I try to think the same way about most parenting decisions (physical pain is where I have problems-spanking, circ, but I try to come across as non-judgmental as I can in mainstream circles). I can share why I don't do things a certain way without making other people feel that I think they're abusive for doing things a different way, and I think people are more likely to listen that way.

i appreciate and share you're point of view. perhaps it's because i'm a veggie in a meat eater's world. but i've wanted to have water births most of my life. imagine how i felt when the first ob i spoke to said "you don't want to do that...that's icky!" i kicked her to the curb. still- unfortunatly, both my pregs were high risk...both delivered by c-section, both delivered early to save my life and also the life of the first one. second babe was healthy, but i spent 12 days in hospital after her.) can you imagine how i feel when people are critical of c-sections across the board? there is a way to disagree, while staying open to other possibilities. i get the feeling the op did disagree respectfully. still, *a person may be right. but does that give them the right to be judgemental?* because i think there is a difference.

....edited to add i just read op's birth story. so i think she knows where i'm coming from.

xoe


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## TerraNoelle (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Xoe* 
i appreciate and share you're point of view. perhaps it's because i'm a veggie in a meat eater's world. but i've wanted to have water births most of my life. imagine how i felt when the first ob i spoke to said "you don't want to do that...that's icky!" i kicked her to the curb. still- unfortunatly, both my pregs were high risk...both delivered by c-section, both delivered early to save my life and also the life of the first one. second babe was healthy, but i spent 12 days in hospital after her.) can you imagine how i feel when people are critical of c-sections across the board? there is a way to disagree, while staying open to other possibilities. i get the feeling the op did disagree respectfully. still, *a person may be right. but does that give them the right to be judgemental?* because i think there is a difference.

....edited to add i just read op's birth story. so i think she knows where i'm coming from.

xoe

*Oh gosh, I can't believe that OB said that to you about a water birth!!!! I think water births are the neatest thing!!!! I've watched a few via video and they are so miraculous to me!!!!!

And I agree with you that being right doesn't give me the right to be judgemental....it WAS rather harsh of me....I wish they would have accepted my apologies







but alas...it wasn't enough....I'm not really sure what more I can do...*


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Sometimes, you have to say something for those who are still deciding whether or not to CIO but aren't posting. Maybe some of those moms couldn't decide, but after hearing tons of pro-CIO comments were thinking maybe it's the best choice after all. And maybe you saying something else made them choose otherwise.

I think getting the truth out there counts for a lot, regardless of how it's received.


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## onyxravnos (Dec 30, 2006)

what more could she want anyway? a fruit basket?


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Was this on a local parenting board, friends group, or an online public forum? When folks come to a public forum, there are going to be differences of opinion. Not everyone likes how that unfolds. In a local board with friends, I'd not share my parenting opinions as directly. On both, I find that sharing what works is more useful to folks than sharing what one might judge is "right". Or "wrong".

In a relationship, we can become aware of another's hot buttons and beware of pushing them. However, IMO, it is impossible to be "responsible" for an invisible stranger's reaction to your opinion.

Depending upon one's goal, as an activist or in a relationship, one can choose their words for impact. From my observations, sharing what works for me, is received more effectively than telling someone what they are doing is "neglectful".









Pat


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## TerraNoelle (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onyxravnos* 
what more could she want anyway? a fruit basket?

*







I seriously think so!! Is it bad that I actually thought for a moment that I WOULD send her flowers to her work?? lol....I think really what she was after is for me to change my opinion of CIO which I won't do, but I DO agree that I could have been much more tactful!! bad me!







*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
Was this on a local parenting board, friends group, or an online public forum? When folks come to a public forum, there are going to be differences of opinion. Not everyone likes how that unfolds. In a local board with friends, I'd not share my parenting opinions as directly. On both, I find that sharing what works is more useful to folks than sharing what one might judge is "right". Or "wrong".

In a relationship, we can become aware of another's hot buttons and beware of pushing them. However, IMO, it is impossible to be "responsible" for an invisible stranger's reaction to your opinion.

Depending upon one's goal, as an activist or in a relationship, one can choose their words for impact. From my observations, sharing what works for me, is received more effectively than telling someone what they are doing is "neglectful".









Pat

*It's an online group [a small one, about 13 people]...it was started by a lady in a larger forum that we all belonged too an orginally a select group of us were invitited by her. [We were all Due in Nov of 2006]....So it WAS a more "close" group.....I only ever met one person off of the board IRL....I think some of them felt as if we were "best friends forever"...when in my mind, they were nice and I liked them all [except one lady]....but it wasn't like fast and true friends for me [except 1 other AP'er on there whom I deeply respect].....
I definently could have been more tactful though....since it was a smaller group. We have all run into issues in the past though with AP versus Mainstream stuff....one lady actually left board awhile ago because she did like me and the other AP gal basically and she started yet a different board....Then after that things always seemed to get more rocky every now and then and one time one of the ladies even posted [it was put fairly nicely though!] if we could not too so much AP talk....so pretty much that told me then that they had no interest in any other view....I guess really it just came to a head for me and I DID lose my cool...but really it was the best thing in the end since us couple of AP'ers basically walked on eggshells after that...

Gosh, yet another ramble!! LOL....sorry!!! Thanks again for all the input!!*


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I left a board for the same basic thing. I said that spanking was hitting (didn't use the word abuse, I might have said that I thought it was wrong). It started a war, someone got their feelings really hurt, people left the group (it was a private group), etc etc.
Everybody got all up in arms about my being judgmental. But no one was bothered at all when *I* was told by another woman that she was worried about my ds, because of my parenting style. That wasn't judgmental, that was concern.
But saying that spanking=hitting is judgmental and unwelcome. bah.

I apologized for hurting the first lady's feelings (because I was sorry that she took it so personally) but didn't take back my opinion.

It took me MONTHS to actually leave the group. I didn't actually leave until I posted that my dog had cancer and had a month to live (or it might have been after she died) and NO ONE replied. Not one person. So bah.

I was way happier after I left and started just hanging out on MDC.


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## TerraNoelle (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
I left a board for the same basic thing. I said that spanking was hitting (didn't use the word abuse, I might have said that I thought it was wrong). It started a war, someone got their feelings really hurt, people left the group (it was a private group), etc etc.
Everybody got all up in arms about my being judgmental. But no one was bothered at all when *I* was told by another woman that she was worried about my ds, because of my parenting style. That wasn't judgmental, that was concern.
But saying that spanking=hitting is judgmental and unwelcome. bah.

I apologized for hurting the first lady's feelings (because I was sorry that she took it so personally) but didn't take back my opinion.

It took me MONTHS to actually leave the group. I didn't actually leave until I posted that my dog had cancer and had a month to live (or it might have been after she died) and NO ONE replied. Not one person. So bah.

I was way happier after I left and started just hanging out on MDC.

*Gosh, our boards sound so similar!! On mine it's NOT judgement when they say things "CIO does not hurt babies" or "babies NEED and function BEST on schedules"..."all babies need scheduled.." .. "Don't feed him when he wakes up at night or he'll get used to it"....
But I felt like you, the moment "I" gave a different opinion, it's judgement...









I am so sorry about your dog!! And equally sorry that not one person could reply! If it makes you feel any better I was told I was throwing a tantrum by leaving and one person said they would not even welcome back [as if I want to go back anyway!







]

I am loving MDC!!*


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## greenmagick (Jun 6, 2006)

I must be evil, because I think I would consider sending flowers or a note, but I would say that I was sorry they took it personally and were hurt, but that I was only thinking of their baby. I would add quotes from various studies etc.....

OK, i probably really wouldnt do that, but its fun to fantasize about


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

I would add quotes from various studies etc.....

Here are some CIO links and studies.









*CIO links*
*These were submitted by josh&davesmomme*.

Basic Instinct
A dad can do so much more than defend the cave. New research shows that he too has the biological goods to nurture baby
http://www.todaysparent.com/lifeaspa...1225399&page=1

Children Need Touching and Attention, Harvard Researchers Say
By Alvin Powell
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/1...enNeedTou.html

Responding to Baby's Cries and why you shouldn't let your baby "cry it out"

Science Says: Excessive Crying Could Be Harmful to Babies
Dr Sears
http://askdrsears.com/html/10/handout2.asp

EARLY BRAIN DEVELOPMENT
What parents and caregivers need to know!
by Phyllis Porter, M.A.
http://www.educarer.com/brain.htm

CIO? No! The case for not using "cry-it-out" with your children
http://www.storknet.com/cubbies/atta...enting/cio.htm

The Dangers of Leaving Your Baby to Cry
By Margaret Chuong-Kim, M.A.
http://drbenkim.com/articles-attachment-parenting.html

Crying for Comfort: Distressed Babies Need to Be Held
http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...onnection.html

The Emotional Infant Brain
Part 1: The developing emotional subsystems of the brain process various information, including how to relate the state of the world with xpectations.
http://www.fresnofamily.com/articles/aa040100a.htm

Mistaken Approaches to Night Waking:
Excerpt from Sweet Dreams: A pediatrician's secrets for your child's good night sleep, Lowell House, 22-28 By Paul M. Fleiss, M.D., M.P.H., F.A.A.P., 2000
http://www.nospank.net/fleiss2.htm

8 INFANT SLEEP FACTS EVERY PARENT SHOULD KNOW
Dr Sears
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/7/T070200.asp

CONTROLLED CRYING:
AAIMHI POSITION PAPER
The Australian Association for Infant Mental Health:
http://www.gymealily.org/resources_paperva7.htm

Loving Responces to a baby's cries
Copyright (c) 2001 By Ingrid Bauer:
http://www.natural-wisdom.com/lovingresponse.htm

A MENTAL HEALTH EXPERT WARNS THAT POPULAR ADVICE TO IGNORE YOUR CHILD'S TEARS MAY CAUSE LIFE-LONG HARM
Amelia Hill
http://www.pantley.com/elizabeth/con...ioarticle.html

Cosleeping & SIDS
Review of the Latest and Most-Authoritative Studies...
http://www.babyreference.com/Cosleep...%20Studies.htm

*CIO articles*
Here are a few of my articles and advice replies:

A Baby Cries: How Should Parents Respond?
http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/babycries.html

Ten Reasons to Respond to a Crying Child
http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/crying.html

The Critical Importance of a Child's First Years: a Baby Speaks
http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/babyspeaks.html

Is a crying child manipulating the parent?
http://www.naturalchild.org/advice/q09.html

Parents try "controlled crying"
http://www.naturalchild.org/advice/q55.html

Dad praises son for not crying
http://www.naturalchild.org/advice/q42.html

Mom denounces "cry to sleep" approach
http://www.naturalchild.org/advice/q36.html

There are more here: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=624394

Pat


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

There's a book called 'The Science of Parenting" by Margot Sunderland that goes into the effects our actions can have on the developing brain. It's based on 30 years of neurological research, and has a section on CIO. I got it through interlibrary loan. Here's a link http://www.dorlingkindersley-uk.co.u...,00.html?sym=Q

It was one of the most encouraging books I've read about the positive effects of a highly nurturing parenting style. The link has a few sample pages and an interview with the author.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

I haven't gotten a chance to read all the messages, but:

1.) I think we tend to forget the realities of the internet. When you post your biggest, deepest secret- When you reveal details of your life that you are unsure of- When you share thoughts close to your heart- YOU ARE SHARING THEM WITH THOUSANDS, IF NOT MILLIONS OF PEOPLE AND YOU OPEN YOURSELF TO WHOMEVER ANSWERS. So, these women posting about CIO who cannot handle alternate views without becoming deeply hurt have put themselves in a very difficult situation. I'm not advocating being cruel (which you weren't!) but that you shoudn't feel guilty or responsible for everyone's reaction to your thoughts. If you stand in the middle of the town square asking people passing by what they think of your parenting, you'd better be prepared for all kinds of answers







.

2.) Often people get very defensive when they are unsure or know something is amiss, but are either unable or unwilling to change their behavior. If it hits close to home but in a way that leaves them feeling a bit unsure, the response is fight or flight. The ideas that we KNOW are right for us do not inspire a big fight in defense of them. Defense is simple and without complicated emotions, even if it is only right for us and not the other person. What we know is who we are does not cause us distress. If they are distressed, it is because they are unsure.

Now, in their defense- they are unsure! I've found a lot of people who end up CIO do so out of desperation. For some people with some babies, the lack of sleep can go from difficult to unhealthy or dangerous for truly exhausted parents, especially with other children to care for and no help from other adults and they don't see how it can go on. For some people, they feel enormous pressure from family members or even spouses to do it- so much so that they feel that their marriage or relationship might be in danger if they don't have the baby sleeping though the night on a regular basis. It is easy to say "Well, then their parter must be a schmuck and they should leave them" but things are not always that simple, nor so black and white. Some people don't understand babies and think that their baby must be somehow "less" if they are not sleeping though the night when "everyone elses is". So, I'm certainly not in defense of CIO, just ask for some patience with some people who do it because they don't have the support or the resources or the knowledge to do anything else. I try not to villify them, as I see it as a mistake.


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## TerraNoelle (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greenmagick* 
I must be evil, because I think I would consider sending flowers or a note, but I would say that I was sorry they took it personally and were hurt, but that I was only thinking of their baby. I would add quotes from various studies etc.....

OK, i probably really wouldnt do that, but its fun to fantasize about









LOL....wouldn't that really stir the pot!!









Thanks for all the links and the book reference....I've read several of the links already and I'll look into getting the book...
Sadly, I know they would never listen anymore to what I would have to say on the subject matter...hopefully one day soon something will get through to them though...


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## TerraNoelle (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexsam* 
I haven't gotten a chance to read all the messages, but:

1.) I think we tend to forget the realities of the internet. When you post your biggest, deepest secret- When you reveal details of your life that you are unsure of- When you share thoughts close to your heart- YOU ARE SHARING THEM WITH THOUSANDS, IF NOT MILLIONS OF PEOPLE AND YOU OPEN YOURSELF TO WHOMEVER ANSWERS. So, these women posting about CIO who cannot handle alternate views without becoming deeply hurt have put themselves in a very difficult situation. I'm not advocating being cruel (which you weren't!) but that you shoudn't feel guilty or responsible for everyone's reaction to your thoughts. If you stand in the middle of the town square asking people passing by what they think of your parenting, you'd better be prepared for all kinds of answers







.

2.) Often people get very defensive when they are unsure or know something is amiss, but are either unable or unwilling to change their behavior. If it hits close to home but in a way that leaves them feeling a bit unsure, the response is fight or flight. The ideas that we KNOW are right for us do not inspire a big fight in defense of them. Defense is simple and without complicated emotions, even if it is only right for us and not the other person. What we know is who we are does not cause us distress. If they are distressed, it is because they are unsure.

Now, in their defense- they are unsure! I've found a lot of people who end up CIO do so out of desperation. For some people with some babies, the lack of sleep can go from difficult to unhealthy or dangerous for truly exhausted parents, especially with other children to care for and no help from other adults and they don't see how it can go on. For some people, they feel enormous pressure from family members or even spouses to do it- so much so that they feel that their marriage or relationship might be in danger if they don't have the baby sleeping though the night on a regular basis. It is easy to say "Well, then their parter must be a schmuck and they should leave them" but things are not always that simple, nor so black and white. Some people don't understand babies and think that their baby must be somehow "less" if they are not sleeping though the night when "everyone elses is". So, I'm certainly not in defense of CIO, just ask for some patience with some people who do it because they don't have the support or the resources or the knowledge to do anything else. I try not to villify them, as I see it as a mistake.

What a great way to look at it, I never thought of it that way! Some of the women on that board fit your description to a tee!!! I've heard many of those comments!
Sadly, the lady I hurt was a little different situation....Her son had been doing find and STTN then he started going through this thing where he was waking up alot and wanted to be with them sleeping [and still waking up sometimes] and she just didn't really want to co sleep and wanted him to hurry and start STTN again....[although some of the above reasons you stated could have been in play and she just never said anything!] I'm just going on what she shared. The other AP mama and I kept trying to say that it is completely normal for babies to go through spurts where they do and don't STTN...teething, growth spurts, colds...all of that can really have a lot to do with it....but it seems our input always feel on deaf ears


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## Breeder (May 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Xoe* 
still, *a person may be right. but does that give them the right to be judgemental?* because i think there is a difference.











I feel this statement is true of *both sides* of that issue. While TerraNoelle14 has admitted she was a bit blunt when voicing her (IMO quite correct







) opinion, the people who blasted her were being just as judgemental.

The truth is our children are so close to our hearts and we so want to do the right thing and what the _right thing is depends on the information we recieve._ The woman who chose to CIO had heard from all the moms on that board (other than the two APers), possibly her pedi, books, relatives etc that CIO is how you do it. Had she perhaps researched other methods of making it through the night (like those lovely links in a pp) she would have done it differently. It's important to put those alternatives out there when people are deciding, in a kind and gentle way (if I can be kind and gentle to a toddler that has just smeared my favorite lipstick across the bathroom wall I can most certainly be kind to an adult who has not hurt me in any way.)

As for apologies, a sincere, "I'm sorry I hurt your feelings" is enough. They want you to say you were wrong. You weren't, but all you can say is "let's agree to disagree."


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## mandolyn (Nov 29, 2006)

I'm coming to this thread late, but I just wanted to say I UNDERSTAND! A few months ago, I posted my feelings about CIO on a local board (in response to a pro-CIO post) and decided to leave as a result of the backlash. The crazy thing is, the group's name contained "AP," and the moderator herself was supporting CIO.







: I said point blank that I didn't see how a group that calls itself AP could condone CIO.

Anyway, I'm also in Central FL, so if you're ever looking for more likeminded mommas to hang out with, I'm part of a few AP groups. Feel free to PM me.

Hugs!


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## TerraNoelle (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mandolyn* 
I'm coming to this thread late, but I just wanted to say I UNDERSTAND! A few months ago, I posted my feelings about CIO on a local board (in response to a pro-CIO post) and decided to leave as a result of the backlash. The crazy thing is, the group's name contained "AP," and the moderator herself was supporting CIO.







: I said point blank that I didn't see how a group that calls itself AP could condone CIO.

Anyway, I'm also in Central FL, so if you're ever looking for more likeminded mommas to hang out with, I'm part of a few AP groups. Feel free to PM me.

Hugs!

*oh wow! And it even had AP in the name?????? I would have been stumped too!!!

And yay, another Central Floridian!!!! I belong to a small SMALL but hopefully growing AP group that meets in Avon Park/Sebring each month...but I'd be very interested in connecting with other AP mamas as well....P.M. me with information!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! woo hoo....I'm really excited to see other people closer to me!!
Oh there is a mom to be in my MOPS group who is AP and that is so nice....we just met really a couple of months ago and seem to be becoming friends!!! It's all so exciting...for a long time I felt really alone!*


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## cuddleluvinma (Jun 6, 2006)

It sounds to me like you have done all that you need to do. You said that you where sorry for hurting her feelings. But, you know what? I think that more people need to feel bad about that. i want then=m to feel bad enough as to where they'll stop the CIO thing. What do they think that their baby feels when they aren't answering their cries??!!! I know I'm preaching to the choir.

It sounds to me like they want people to have opinions only when they fit into their ideas. I think you fit in better here. But, then again, I feel that there need to be people that are more on the AP side to give others a different option (as far as advice goes.). So....don't be thinking that you aren't needed on the other boards. If the only advice new (or even old members on the board) people got was mainstream and the same as the others then they may not be feeling good about the advice they are getting but follow it anyway just because they're not getting any other responses. YKWIM?


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## cuddleluvinma (Jun 6, 2006)

Sorry, I hadn't read anything other than the OP. To bad that they aren't even interested in any other ways of dealing with things. Too bad for the kids.


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