# Would you let your ds join the Boy Scouts?



## SugarAndSun (Feb 6, 2005)

Would you let your ds join the Boy Scouts? Why or why not? This has been an ongoing battle between dh and me. (Though ds is only 7 months :LOL ) So, I'm just looking for some input. Thanks.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

No. I am opposed to their stance on gay people, so I could not support them in any way.


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## liawbh (Sep 29, 2004)

:
Plus the religion part - too much exclusion all around.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

See above and above.


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

: to all the above.


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## lactivist02 (Feb 6, 2005)

I have a 13 yo and a 8 yo they are bolth in scouts. I like the responsibility and skills it teaches. Plus an Eagle Scout is a great thing to have on resumes etc. My 13 yo has learned so much from scouts and has some good friends in his troop. My 8 yo just started and cant wait for the next week. My 4 yo wants to go to scouts so bad he's obsessed.

FWIW Michelle







:


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

We tried it with our son. Mostly because of the pine derby car races. After this year we are done with it. Same things everyone else mentioned. Also, because it is Dad-run, it can get chaotic. Not like the orderly and more quiet Girl Scouts at all. No offense to dads but they seem to have a high tolerance for running around, loud noise and boys doing inappropriate things.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Sadly, no, I would not allow any sons of mine to participate in such a prejudiced group as the boy scouts. Which is really a shame as I believe strongly in all the good that can come from scouting









-Angela


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## wemberly (Jun 26, 2003)

The BS are too intolerant for my taste so we're looking into Spiral Scouts as an alternative.


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## Jennifer Z (Sep 15, 2002)

I absolutely will not allow them to be in Boy Scouts because of their stance on homosexuals. There are plenty of other activities and groups that do not clash with my beleifs that would allow the same sort of growth and interaction, without the prejudice.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

No, because of their stance on non-god believing people and gays.

(my husband is an athiest)


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## Starr (Mar 16, 2005)

My DH is an eagle scout







: . So I think I would have a hard time convincing him not to, though I do not agree with their stand against homosexuals. But then again there is seldom any organzied even/activity I agree 100% on :LOL . A lot of it depends on if the DS expressed a strong desire to join or not. I would find it hard to explain that he couldn't join because of one thing his mom and dad don't like in the overall scheme of things. At the age when they join most kids do not realize the Boy Scouts view towards things.


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

Well, I don't have a child old enough to scout and the one I do have is a girl, but here are my thoughts as of now.

I would allow my son to make his own decision about whether or not he wants to participate but I would make certain he is fully aware of thir policies, and let him know he may not be welcome. I am an atheist and I raise my children that way until they decide otherwise. I would let him know my feelings about the Boy Scouts' antigay policies and hope he makes the decision that this is not an orginization he wishes to be a part of. If not, it is ultimately his choice and he is free to stop participating at any point. If it turns out he just wants to go camping and learn knots and survival skills we can work on that as a family and find other organizations more in line with our own beleifs.


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## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evergreen*
I would allow my son to make his own decision about whether or not he wants to participate but I would make certain he is fully aware of thir policies, and let him know he may not be welcome.... it is ultimately his choice and he is free to stop participating at any point.

That's my plan, too, if it comes up. I also don't like sex-segregated activities, so I'm not a huge Girl Scout fan for that reason. We plan to start a Roots and Shoots chapter soon, and if that takes off maybe it will fulfill whatever it is my kids would be looking for from the Scouts.


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

I would explain to him that they are mean to people who aren't just like them and won't let them join and tell him its his choice but I wouldn't want to be part of a group that isn't fair...


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## TexasSuz (Mar 4, 2002)

Yes, my son will be a Boy Scout as soon as he is old enough. Dh will also work with his troup. Interesting, one of my best friends was raised an atheist and he is an Eagle Scout. He said he never had an issue with the religious aspect of scouting. He says the Boy Scout experience was incredible for him!


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## oldcrunchymom (Jun 26, 2002)

We are atheists so it's highly unlikely my ds would want to join after he found out they don't like gays and non-monotheists. He has a strong sense of justice. However, the decision would be up to him.


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## mama_daba (Dec 7, 2004)

what do people think of the sea scouts? when i was a kid i had a few friends who where sea scouts, and my partner was a sea scout, i think they are more open minded about stuff, but from what i have read it is for older kids, starting at 12 or 13 or something

i was a brownie scout and i hated it, i wanted to be camping and learning about plants and wilderness and instead there was craft projects and artsy stuff, and while i loved art i hated having to do pre planned art where i didn't get to be creative, gluing things on pine cones to make them look like christmas trees was really borring to me, and the one camping trip we went on the scout leaders daught for crysalises and killed all the butterflies inside, and beingthe sensetive kid i was, it was just horble


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

My Ds wanted to do some Boy Scouting stuff back when he was about 7/8 yrs old. We found that we (and Ds found too) didn't care for it. It was very chaotic (and chaos is fine, but nothing cooperative of fun was happening because of it) and few of the boys really did get involved in our projects. We had a family history project and my son and another boy were the only ones who did anything for it. There was also alot of bullying. It just didn't feel good.

We went because my son wanted to try it out, and we try to support their interests. It's not something I would have ever chosen for him though (for reasons other posters have mentioned). I know that every troop is probably differnet but it left a bad taste in our mouths for the scouting thing. There are Spiral Scouts and such though.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfroggy*
the one camping trip we went on the scout leaders daught for crysalises and killed all the butterflies inside, and beingthe sensetive kid i was, it was just horble

 Oh wow, that is horrible.


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## BelovedK (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wemberly*
The BS are too intolerant for my taste so we're looking into Spiral Scouts as an alternative.


That sounds so cool, What are the Spiral Scouts?


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedK*
That sounds so cool, What are the Spiral Scouts?

http://www.spiralscouts.org/metadot/index.pl

Quote:

SpiralScouts™ International is a program for girls and boys of minority faiths working, growing and learning together. Making its public debut in February of 2001, SpiralScouts™ International has grown into an expanded program available to anyone world wide. We now serve youth in 20 US States, Canada and Europe.


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## SagMom (Jan 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evergreen*
I would allow my son to make his own decision about whether or not he wants to participate but I would make certain he is fully aware of thir policies, and let him know he may not be welcome.


Ditto.


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## sugarbeth (Apr 24, 2002)

I've just talked with the local Camp Fire office person today, and will meet with her on monday. There are no local preschooler groups in my area, so there's a good chance I might be starting one up - eep! Apparently they've just recently written up a preschooler curriculum, or they said I could start with the kindergarten one.

My point is, Camp Fire is co-ed, non-discriminatory, and secular. That's why I was looking into it.


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## Sasha_girl (Feb 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
No, because of their stance on non-god believing people and gays.

Ditto here.


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## Kundalini-Mama (Jul 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wemberly*
The BS are too intolerant for my taste so we're looking into Spiral Scouts as an alternative.









: Now that my older son is 3, I have to start looking into the requirements for being a spiral scout leader. Thanks for the reminder.

Amy


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## Kundalini-Mama (Jul 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srain*
That's my plan, too, if it comes up. I also don't like sex-segregated activities, so I'm not a huge Girl Scout fan for that reason. We plan to start a Roots and Shoots chapter soon, and if that takes off maybe it will fulfill whatever it is my kids would be looking for from the Scouts.


what is roots and shoots?


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## ~*max*~ (Dec 23, 2002)

Another vote for no - due to the opposition of gays, their religious stance, and unorganization.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TexasSuz*
Yes, my son will be a Boy Scout as soon as he is old enough. Dh will also work with his troup. Interesting, one of my best friends was raised an atheist and he is an Eagle Scout. He said he never had an issue with the religious aspect of scouting. He says the Boy Scout experience was incredible for him!

Yes, but sadly things have changed.

My DH was an Eagle Scout too, and an atheist. He was able to get away with not saying the pledge, where you have to say you believe in God.

NOW, you can't do that. My nephew tried and they said that today they are very careful about making sure each child is willing to pledge a belief in God.

So, I only have dd's, but if I had a son. NO. I could not let him join.


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## Rhonwyn (Apr 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
Yes, but sadly things have changed.

My DH was an Eagle Scout too, and an atheist. He was able to get away with not saying the pledge, where you have to say you believe in God.

NOW, you can't do that. My nephew tried and they said that today they are very careful about making sure each child is willing to pledge a belief in God.

So, I only have dd's, but if I had a son. NO. I could not let him join.


Maya is correct. The Boy Scouts have become more religious and less tolerant over the years. My Dad has been in Scouting for 50 some years. As an atheist or a gay person, it is very hard to not be outed and kicked out now. That being said, it does depend on where you are in the US.

Here in Seattle, we have found a nice Cub Scout troop that is connected to a school that is pretty much a don't ask, don't tell, don't care Cub Pack. There are boys of many faiths and many parents who leave out the 'under God' in the Pledge. No one cares. The Pack is there for the boys to learn, grow and have fun. We have as little as possible to do with national scouts.

When my son moves up to Boy Scouts (if he moves up), then it will be whole another ball of wax and we will have to re-look at the situation.

My recommendation if your boy is interested is check out a Cub Scout Pack that is connected to a school rather than a church. Take it one year at a time. It is really too bad that national Boy Scouts have become so exclusionary. The program can be really good for boys and being an Eagle Scout does have a lot of weight on a resume.


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## BoxOfRainMama (Jan 22, 2004)

My husband was an "Indian Guide" I think they arent around anymore.... but he always says he wishes our kids could be Indian guides. I did Campfire and I do remember learning about God at summer camp and stuff through Camp Fire, but it was infact Co-ed. My daughter is a Girl Scout and loves it, I hope my son will have the same experience in Boy Scouts.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rhonwyn*
Maya is correct. The Boy Scouts have become more religious and less tolerant over the years. My Dad has been in Scouting for 50 some years. As an atheist or a gay person, it is very hard to not be outed and kicked out now. That being said, it does depend on where you are in the US.

Here in Seattle, we have found a nice Cub Scout troop that is connected to a school that is pretty much a don't ask, don't tell, don't care Cub Pack. There are boys of many faiths and many parents who leave out the 'under God' in the Pledge. No one cares. The Pack is there for the boys to learn, grow and have fun. We have as little as possible to do with national scouts.

When my son moves up to Boy Scouts (if he moves up), then it will be whole another ball of wax and we will have to re-look at the situation.

My recommendation if your boy is interested is check out a Cub Scout Pack that is connected to a school rather than a church. Take it one year at a time. It is really too bad that national Boy Scouts have become so exclusionary. The program can be really good for boys and being an Eagle Scout does have a lot of weight on a resume.

Wow. Here they do NOT allow cub scouts or boy scouts to be connected to the public schools because of their position on religion!


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:

My husband was an "Indian Guide" I think they arent around anymore....
They are still around and thriving. It's a YMCA program. They are no longer called "Indian Guides." They are now Y-Adventure Guides. My dds belong. I love this program and so do my girls. It is co-ed, and for the most part, it's the fathers who participate, although mothers are welcome, too. Personally, I love that it is the fathers who are involved. Perhaps it is a little less organized for that reason, but there is also much less BS. Plus, I'd rather set fire to my own hair than go camping, and this gets me off the hook!


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## jeanieloz (Sep 30, 2004)

I was involved with a pack that were affiliated with a school and not churche. Now that we are in a pack affiliated with a church, I really don't care for it as much. Our "old" pack and troop where we used to live were SO MUCH BETTER!!!!
It really depends on the pack-troop and the leaders. Bad leaders=a bad troop!
I was a den leader for three years, and in my pack most of the leaders were female, not male. In the troop there were 4 female leaders as well.
I never focused on religion, but did encourage the kids to learn the pledge, etc... if there had been any objection I would have allowed it, as it is a freedom of choice. Many kids are there to participate, learn, and be in community oriented activities, and not to learn about God, IMO that is a private matter that the parents can encourage, not the pack-troop, one of the Acheivements is God and religion, and I just told the parents that if they wanted their child to do that, it is up to them to do it at home and it would not be covered during our meetings, they just needed to let me know, so the child would get credit.
We helped clean up roads, plant trees, food drives, world conservation of endangered species, visited nursing homes, animal rehabs, and many many other activities. Our pack was really nature oriented and perserving the well being of everything natural.
However the pack-troop we are in now, doesn't seem to do ANYTHING with nature, clean up, or help of the community, and this I don't like, so we are probably going to look at other pack-troops ASAP. It is Church run, and I didn't like the fact that we were told that they would not allow any non-Christians to become Eagle scouts "We won't allow any Bhudist Eagles pass through our troop" I think that is really discriminatory, and I think they are short sighted, but that is "this" troop, and not representative of every troop in Boy Scouts. So not all packs-troops are created equal, and it just takes some searching for one that you like.
I also understand they allow homosexuals, just not as leaders, and I do know there are many religious emblems that the kids can earn, not just Christian, but Hindu, Bhudism, Jewish, etc... so it's not just a Christian orginization.
My older boys are looking forward to becoming Eagle scouts, but that is their decision on becoming one, not my position to make them into one.
Otherwise I think it is a great orginization, sure it has it's problems and quirks, but you will find that in all orginizations, and I really like Scouts so much better than Little League!!! I just didn't care for someone screaming at my son, or another parent commenting on my childs performance, or lack there of... I never encountered discouragement in Scouts, all kids got to work on their levels, and were encouraged to perform at their own pace.
Donna


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## dynamohumm6 (Feb 22, 2005)

No. We're atheist, and I strongly oppose their view on gays. I will not pay dues to an organization that practices discrimination, or allow my kids to be part of it.
I had to ixnay girl scouts for my kindergartener because of this--looking into alternatives.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

dynamohumm6- What problems did you find with Girl Scouts? I've found our program here and what I've read of national politics to be pretty open. If they're not, then I need to find another option if my dd is interested (I've got time....







)

thanks for any info

-Angela


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

no


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## dynamohumm6 (Feb 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna*
dynamohumm6- What problems did you find with Girl Scouts? I've found our program here and what I've read of national politics to be pretty open. If they're not, then I need to find another option if my dd is interested (I've got time....







)

thanks for any info

-Angela

Well, there was nothing really cut & dry, but it seemed to me that they were affiliated with BS enough to make me uncomfortable. I wish there were better info--I'll post the info I found later tonight for you (nak).


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Oh no. Girl Scouts is VERY different from Boy Scouts. not connected in any way. Entirely different creature







I know that much for sure.

thanks for any more info though!

-Angela


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Absolutely not. If I had a son that was interested in something like that, I would find an alternative that's minus the hate, predjudice, and discrimination.

I won't even buy their freaking popcorn.


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## dynamohumm6 (Feb 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna*
Oh no. Girl Scouts is VERY different from Boy Scouts. not connected in any way. Entirely different creature







I know that much for sure.

thanks for any more info though!

-Angela


Really--well, that's good to know!! Thank you.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Glad to help! Now if girl scouts would just open a branch for boys... lol. Actually, boys are technically allowed in girl scouts... never knew any though.

-Angela


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## veggie4ever (Oct 31, 2004)

Yes I would he wants to do it next year. I think they learn a lot of fun stuff.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dynamohumm6*
I strongly oppose their view on gays. I will not pay dues to an organization that practices discrimination, or allow my kids to be part of it.









:


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## AdoptChina (Dec 7, 2003)

no, but for other reasons than posted here (well those too)......Both my 10 & 8 yr olds wanted to sign up....I put it off for a while then said maybe. So I talked to the den leader and they said that for my younger son, DH would have to go to the meetings with him....and that for both boys DH would need to volunteer and go camping etc........DH has NO desire to get involved in BS in anyway, so it was a no go (I would take the boys but I have 2 smaller kids plus we have soccer 3 days a week)........


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

hmm..this sounds like something my dh and I are going to have to look into. We've been very active in Scouts Canada...this is my son's 4th year (three as a Cub, and one as a Scout). I was the group treasurer and registrar and dh was a leader for three years. We're all agnostic, and nobody ever asked us.

DH was an Eagle Scout in the US, and has wonderful memories of BSA. We're planning on moving to Knoxville (was going to be this summer....now we're planning on next year). We'd planned for ds to continue in Scouting once we moved, but this doesn't sound very promising. When did they become soooo exclusionary?


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## SugarAndSun (Feb 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
Wow. Here they do NOT allow cub scouts or boy scouts to be connected to the public schools because of their position on religion!

They don't even allow them to use town property here!

Thanks for all the input! I plan to check onto the other groups mentioned.


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## Rhonwyn (Apr 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
hmm..this sounds like something my dh and I are going to have to look into. We've been very active in Scouts Canada...this is my son's 4th year (three as a Cub, and one as a Scout). I was the group treasurer and registrar and dh was a leader for three years. We're all agnostic, and nobody ever asked us.

DH was an Eagle Scout in the US, and has wonderful memories of BSA. We're planning on moving to Knoxville (was going to be this summer....now we're planning on next year). We'd planned for ds to continue in Scouting once we moved, but this doesn't sound very promising. When did they become soooo exclusionary?


It has been in like the last 15 years or so that they have become so hardcore about believing in God or a religion. At the same time is when the whole anti-gay thing began. Some of it was out of concern about pedophiles and protecting the boys but it really went too far because as anyone with a brain knows from the research almost all pedophiles identify as heterosexual and are often married with kids. From there it became a religious thing with the rightwing religious groups. BSA is supported by many conservative religious groups and they have a lot of pull. They don't want the BSA to be secular and they want them follopw their beliefs on gays. They do allow the practice of many faiths but you have to have one.

This is less true in liberal areas where the dogma isn't enforced and often the national BSA is outright ignored. It is almost impossible to push back though, because the national BSA will yank your Pack's or Troop's charter if you do.


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

The GS pledge does involve a reference to god, however. At least it did when I was a kid. I never remember anyone making a big deal if you didn't say it, though.

I did have crappy leaders. I wanted to go camping and do all the fun stuff, but they insisted we sit inside and learn to crochet. :/


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

In Canada the Girl Guide pledge does have the word God in it, you can subsitute Faith for it. Each member can choose which to say based on their personal beliefs.

"The choice acknowledges our culturally complex nation and the need to search for spiritual fulfillment, as individuals or as one of our many faith communities. Girls and women take pride in choosing which term to use. The Word Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts states "spiritual development is achieved by being true to my deepest self, by learning to love myself, by developing my abilities.""

I know some people have a problem with the word Faith. IMO Faith can mean a religion other than Christianity, it can also be agnostic or aethiest.


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## midstreammama (Feb 8, 2005)

If I had a son, they would not be joining boyscouts for all the reasons mentioned here.

Dd1 wants to join girlscouts, but there are no open troops around here. So, its pretty much start your own(which i'm not doing)..or wait. I hope she will be too big for them by then.

I was a brownie scout when I was younger and i didn't really see the big deal in it.


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## sistermama (May 6, 2003)

No boy scouts for us.
If you want another reason to dislike them, how about the allegation that they are ripping off United Ways (i.e. the american public) all over the country:
http://ap.lancasteronline.com/4/boy_..._investigation


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## Raynbow (Aug 2, 2004)

My son is a boy scout, and he did all the years of cub scout as well (tiger, wolf, bear, Webelos I and II).
I do not agree with their stance on homosexuality - and when it became obvious that the organization's administration was very anti-gay, I was ready to pull him out - *but* when I told my (gay) mother this, she asked that I not take him out.
Her reasoning? Yes, the administration is anti-gay, but the people who actually run the individual troops/packs are not necessarily in agreement with the adminstration's stance. The idea of who a boy scout should try to be is a very good thing for today's kids - someone who is honest, loyal, helpful and hardworking. BSA provides opportunities for kids to get out and do things they normally don't necessarily do - camping, Klondike Derby, swimming, CPR/First Aid, etc - and to do community service with no expectation of payment. It also provides boys who have little or no male role models in their lives quite a bit of male interaction. It also reinforces spending time with family and being interested and involved with your world. And, last, but not least, having your Eagle Scout Badge is quite an honor - and means something when applying for jobs as an adult, applying for scholarships, etc.
So, really, you have to weigh the pros and cons - and get to know the leaders in your community, then make the decision.
I have had no problems with the leaders in my son's pack enspousing the administration's beliefs.


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## Azreial (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raynbow*
My son is a boy scout, and he did all the years of cub scout as well (tiger, wolf, bear, Webelos I and II).
I do not agree with their stance on homosexuality - and when it became obvious that the organization's administration was very anti-gay, I was ready to pull him out - *but* when I told my (gay) mother this, she asked that I not take him out.
Her reasoning? Yes, the administration is anti-gay, but the people who actually run the individual troops/packs are not necessarily in agreement with the adminstration's stance. The idea of who a boy scout should try to be is a very good thing for today's kids - someone who is honest, loyal, helpful and hardworking. BSA provides opportunities for kids to get out and do things they normally don't necessarily do - camping, Klondike Derby, swimming, CPR/First Aid, etc - and to do community service with no expectation of payment. It also provides boys who have little or no male role models in their lives quite a bit of male interaction. It also reinforces spending time with family and being interested and involved with your world. And, last, but not least, having your Eagle Scout Badge is quite an honor - and means something when applying for jobs as an adult, applying for scholarships, etc.
So, really, you have to weigh the pros and cons - and get to know the leaders in your community, then make the decision.
I have had no problems with the leaders in my son's pack enspousing the administration's beliefs.

I was totall against the bs becuase of the anti-gay thing, but now your post has got me thinking..........


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## Got_Cloth (May 14, 2005)

My husband has been a scout leader thru our church for years. THe meeting are held at or church every wednesday night and even though it is at the church, there is NO religion talk. Scouts is scouts and church is church. I guess some would be offended by the fact they pray before a scout outing or camping trip, but i am one that prays before anything I do. I feel it gives the boys a sense of belonging during those akward years, GIves them something positive to do, teaches them goal making and how to reach them, teaches them sense of accomplishment, teaches providing service to those in need, and it gives the boy a (usually) positive male figure, other than dad they can grow close to and cofide in. My hubby first worked with 11 yo boys, then 12, then 14 , then 16 adnback to 11 and 12's The boys grew to know and trust my husband and there have been many times a boy has called my husband to talk becaseu they were goign thru something they were afraid to talk to their dad about. Most of the time it works out that the boys would go talk to their dad about whatever it is.
I think that scouting is a good thing, and while we have 3 girls, if we had a boy he would definately be apart of scouting if he chose to.

now ill go quietly back onto the corner.


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## crunchywannabe (Mar 10, 2003)

My dh is an eagle scout, and my son is in scouts now...and my youngest son will be a scout next year.
It is not dad run here. through our church we have the scouting program, and the leaders are women. it is never chaotic. I love the things that conner is learning (ie science, nature, community awareness) and wish there were a similar program for girls. my girls will NOT be in girl scouts.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchywannabe*
my girls will NOT be in girl scouts.

Why not?


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

No, because of the anti-gay & Christian crap.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Crunchywannabe, I'm interested to know why your girls will not be allowed to join GS?

I have no sons, only daughters, so the question of BSA won't come up for my immediate family.

I have noticed that none of my many nephews are in BSA. I wonder if the discrimination is why?

It's because being an Eagle Scout is such a door-opener that the discrimination against atheists and gay folks is so insidious. If it didn't "buy" you anything, it would just be a group that didn't like atheists and gay folks... the discrimination wouldn't mean as much. As it is, their decision to exclude some children means that male, religious and non-gay youth have another "edge" as they enter adulthood just because they are male, religious and non-gay.

I'd love to see a non-BSA alternative to "Eagle Scout" take off so female, atheist and gay young people would have a great way to show their honor, service and perseverance.


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## dynamohumm6 (Feb 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
Of course, that is a circular arguement for me--- I don't support the United Way because *they* support the Boy Scouts. Another way I will not give my $ to bigots.

what she said









For me, it doesn't matter if the local troop is tolerant, the bigoted administration is still getting support from me if my kid belonged, and I can't hang with that.


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## crunchywannabe (Mar 10, 2003)

chfriend and Hellokitty--
my girls will not be in girl scouts because of the planned parenthood information they can give out...granted it is decided by the local chapters if they can/want to do it with the girls and is not mandated as part of the national girl scout "rules" but dh and I are firmly against them teaching it to our children.
to read more (if you are interested that is







) you can see a quick story here http://www.lifenews.com/nat442.html
(just one of many I found really quick googling)

HTH


----------



## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

I knew there was something about Girl Scouts that I liked.


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

:

Another super thing about Girl Scouts! I should go buy more cookies to support them.....









-Angela


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

To be honest, I do not know. I don't have a son (yet - I am pregnant but we don't know if it is ab oy or a girl...)

I strongly disagree with an open stance AGAINST gays. But, I suppose if my son REALLY wanted in very badly and lots of his friends were in, I might let him. Then again, I might not.


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## Rhonwyn (Apr 16, 2002)

Love the Girl Scouts!

I wish the Boy Scouts were more like them! Our Cub Scout Pack gives little to no money to the national organization. We don't sell popcorn. I love our Pack because it is so independent. Also, while we do say the Cub Scout promise, we never pray before anything. Individual members may choose to do so but we don't pray as a Pack. The Pack is run as secular as possible.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Thanx for answering crunchywannabe









I might go buy more cookies myself... but I respect your differing point of view and appreciate the info







:


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## KermitMissesJim (Feb 12, 2004)

My boys will start Cub Scouts at age 8.


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## crunchywannabe (Mar 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
Thanx for answering crunchywannabe









I might go buy more cookies myself... but I respect your differing point of view and appreciate the info







:

no problem!

I actually buy cookies still because I can't resist them (I swear they have drugs as an ingredient to hook you on them!!!)

We just don't want the girls involved in an organization that goes against what we teach our children.

but I respect others choice to put their girls in (or who choose to not do boyscouts)


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

non-gay youth
Gay youth are allowed to join, just no gay leaders.


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## dynamohumm6 (Feb 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom*
I knew there was something about Girl Scouts that I liked.



















I may have to rethink my stance...the god stuff does bother me, though.


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5*
Gay youth are allowed to join, just no gay leaders.

Still unacceptable imo.


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna*
Sadly, no, I would not allow any sons of mine to participate in such a prejudiced group as the boy scouts. Which is really a shame as I believe strongly in all the good that can come from scouting










-Angela

ditto. It's a total bummer.


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## Patchfire (Dec 11, 2001)

I know dh and I are going to have an argument about Boy Scouts. I've already informed him to be prepared for it when the time comes. :LOL He was in Boy Scouts for years, and I was in Girl Scouts, so he can't quite see why I'll let dd be in GS, but not let ds be in Boy Scouts. Oh well... I have a few years to work on it.

GS lets people substitute and/or eliminate 'God' from the pledge. Not to mention they don't have any sort of anti-gay stance.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5*
Gay youth are allowed to join, just no gay leaders.

Actually no. Gay boys are not allowed either. There have been several cases where they have been kicked out.

-Angela


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchywannabe*
chfriend and Hellokitty--
my girls will not be in girl scouts because of the planned parenthood information they can give out...granted it is decided by the local chapters if they can/want to do it with the girls and is not mandated as part of the national girl scout "rules" but dh and I are firmly against them teaching it to our children.
to read more (if you are interested that is







) you can see a quick story here http://www.lifenews.com/nat442.html
(just one of many I found really quick googling)

HTH

I don't expect you do *change* anything, but posting an article that refers to Planned Parenthood as PRO-ABORTION is really offensive.

Do you enjoy being called ANTI-CHOICE (which, in reality, is more accurate than "pro-abortion)?


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

lifenews?

man.


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## crunchywannabe (Mar 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
I don't expect you do *change* anything, but posting an article that refers to Planned Parenthood as PRO-ABORTION is really offensive.


I posted THAT article because it showed the link between girl scouts and planned parenthood...no other reason.

Quote:

Do you enjoy being called ANTI-CHOICE (which, in reality, is more accurate than "pro-abortion)?
not sure where that question comes from...I believe in a womens choice, but I don't believe in abortion personally.


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## mountain (Dec 12, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchywannabe*
I actually buy cookies still because I can't resist them (I swear they have drugs as an ingredient to hook you on them!!!)

We just don't want the girls involved in an organization that goes against what we teach our children.

Ugh, if you read the ingredients, they're all hydrogenated nastiness...I don't buy them anymore.

I wouldn't mind the planned parenthood thing, I hope we can all teach our daughters about their choices & options for those choices.

I was in the girl scouts & I HATED it. Like a pp mentioned, it was all stupid songs and "crafts" (read: making frickin pot holders) while my brother got to go on camping trips, build fires, do community work. It was so sexist and ridiculous.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchywannabe*
I posted THAT article because it showed the link between girl scouts and planned parenthood...no other reason.

not sure where that question comes from...I believe in a womens choice, but I don't believe in abortion personally.

I must have misunderstood. You said, "We just don't want the girls involved in an organization that goes against what we teach our children" in regards to Girl Scouts being associated with Planned Parenthood and then provided a link calling PP "Pro-Abortion" so I *ass*umed that what went against your beliefs/what you teach your children was reproductive choice.

Now I really don't understand what you meant.

And I still think that calling PP PRO-ABORTION is offensive. If there is a lot of information about there about this link between GS & PP, perhaps you could find a different source.


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## talk de jour (Apr 21, 2005)

Never. I don't like the religious affiliation (they're practically owned by the LDS church, and that leaves a very, very bad taste in my mouth. I'm not just talking out my butt here, either... my father is an ex-mormon.) Their stance on gays is disgusting as well. I also don't like the assumption that every member is a member of a Judeo-Christian religion, and the fact that a medallion stating one's religion is a part of the uniform. Not a required part, but a part nonetheless.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Here the B.S. are strongly associated with one particular religion......so probably not, because I wouldn't want my son to feel like an outsider because of his religion (or lack thereof).


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## crunchywannabe (Mar 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
I must have misunderstood. You said, "We just don't want the girls involved in an organization that goes against what we teach our children" in regards to Girl Scouts being associated with Planned Parenthood and then provided a link calling PP "Pro-Abortion" so I *ass*umed that what went against your beliefs/what you teach your children was reproductive choice.

Now I really don't understand what you meant.

And I still think that calling PP PRO-ABORTION is offensive. If there is a lot of information about there about this link between GS & PP, perhaps you could find a different source.

oh! I see what you mean now. I am sorry I was not more clear.

what I meant was that we teach our children to be abstinent....so anything to do with planned parenthood goes against our teachings (whether it be abortion or having brith control.) does that make sense?

there are tons of reports from the news online about the gs and pp link. that just happened to be the first one I pulled up and I was in a hurry to post.


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## crunchywannabe (Mar 10, 2003)

and I don't think the BS are necessarily *heavily* religious as you might think. (Or you can make it not that way if you prefer) My neighbor is pagan, and both her boys are scouts. She says it has never been an issue.


----------



## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchywannabe*
and I don't think the BS are necessarily *heavily* religious as you might think. (Or you can make it not that way if you prefer) My neighbor is pagan, and both her boys are scouts. She says it has never been an issue.


I think it depends on what state/area you live in. There's just no way to make Boy Scouts non-religious in Utah.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchywannabe*
oh! I see what you mean now. I am sorry I was not more clear.

what I meant was that we teach our children to be abstinent....so anything to do with planned parenthood goes against our teachings (whether it be abortion or having brith control.) does that make sense?

there are tons of reports from the news online about the gs and pp link. that just happened to be the first one I pulled up and I was in a hurry to post.

Yes, I understand what you mean now.

Can't agree, but understand


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## member (Apr 15, 2002)

Um, no. I would like to think that if a DC of mine chose to do BSoA I'd be cool, but, no. But I really can't imagine an informed child 'o mine wanting to join.

Yeah, there's the whole homosexuality ban. That's just the icing for me.









Can we say cultural appropriation, exoticification, and historicalizing Native Peoples? Indian guide??? I would get into details, but feel free to Google. My culture is not here for BSoA to use a jumping board for tacky crafts with popscicle sticks nor are Native people, the People of Yesterday.









I can't even imagine sending my DC off into a group that would probably ask to pet him and teach them all our 'spiritual seekrits.' uke


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

And I keep reading about boy scouts getting lost:

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2811400

So sad. My heart aches for this mother.


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## binxsmom (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evergreen*

I would allow my son to make his own decision about whether or not he wants to participate but I would make certain he is fully aware of thir policies, and let him know he may not be welcome.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchywannabe*
chfriend and Hellokitty--
my girls will not be in girl scouts because of the planned parenthood information they can give out...granted it is decided by the local chapters if they can/want to do it with the girls and is not mandated as part of the national girl scout "rules" but dh and I are firmly against them teaching it to our children.

My girls have been in GS for 2 years and there has never been anything like this at all. GS have a special premission form for meeting/field trips on sensitive topics that has room for the outline of the meeting.

They do radical things like paint t-shirts, go on nature hikes, and sing really silly songs.


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## michelle1k (Jul 7, 2002)

...we've just come back from a weekend of camping with our local BS pack. My son is 7 and has just finished his first year of being a tiger cub. Although the weekend was a complete culture shock for us (vegan, homeschooling, pacifist, tree-hugging, extended nursing, atheist & Buddhist parents), I think it is important that we stay and that we see more people like ourselves in the BS. I would not have joined if it wasn't for our fantastic den leader whom I consider to be a friend with similar world-views and with whom I hashed out my concerns re the BS's stance on gays and religion in writing before we joined.

For us, it is about balance: our BS den and pack is good wholesome fun and my ds is learning skills he would not learn from us (catch-and-release fishing, wilderness skills, etc.). He is enjoying his time there, wears his uniform proudly, but he is adamant that he won't say "all the God-stuff" - we do insist that he is respectful during times of religious observation (mercifully short so far!).

Warmly,
Michelle


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## 2much2luv (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

THe meeting are held at or church every wednesday night and even though it is at the church, there is NO religion talk. Scouts is scouts and church is church. I guess some would be offended by the fact they pray before a scout outing or camping trip, but . . .
Sorry but :LOL If they pray then it is churchy and contradicts your "scouts is scouts and church is church" statement.


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## 2much2luv (Jan 12, 2003)

Oh, and to answer the op, I don't have a son but if I did he wouldnt be a bs. Thank you so much for the spiral scout link. That looks really neat.


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## myjulybabes (Jun 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dynamohumm6*
For me, it doesn't matter if the local troop is tolerant, the bigoted administration is still getting support from me if my kid belonged, and I can't hang with that.

Precisely. My ds will not join. However, my brother is a leader of a Venturing Crew (co-ed teen scouting associated with BSA), and they have a non-discrimination clause written into their bylaws. So I still buy pizza from him, because the money only goes to his crew. And it's good pizza.







But if the money went to BSA.........no way.

Has anyone heard of an organization or movement called "Scouting for All" or something along those lines? My mom mentioned it in passing, and I haven't had time to look up more info on it yet. Apparently my brother is really into it, I'll have to find out more from him.

ETA: Or I could just google "Scouting for All" real quick. Looks pretty good, in the brief look I gave the page: http://www.scoutingforall.org/


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2much2luv*
Sorry but :LOL If they pray then it is churchy and contradicts your "scouts is scouts and church is church" statement.

Thank you - I thought I was going to have to be the one to point out the obvious but you did it for me :LOL


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## bayviewbill33 (Sep 15, 2004)

I want my ds to participate in Scouts. I think it is a good organization that teaches boys good qualities - honesty, trustworthy, etc. etc. I think it will be good for him to meet other boys and make friends. Their belief in God and their stance on homosexuals does not bother me. I do not recall the Boy Scouts teaching me intolerance towards anyone, of course that was 20 years ago and I doubt (though I will look into it) their literature is teaching boys to intolerance towards gays or non Christians.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bayviewbill33*
Their belief in God and their stance on homosexuals does not bother me. I do not recall the Boy Scouts teaching me intolerance towards anyone, of course that was 20 years ago and I doubt (though I will look into it) their literature is teaching boys to intolerance towards gays or non Christians.

Yeah, not allowing them to join a group that is supposedly about camping & scouting (not religion or sexuality) shows real tolerance


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

More of their intolerance:

Quote:

Petaluma CA-The Boy Scouts of America have adopted a resolution dated February 6, 2002, in which gays and atheists are deemed unfit and unacceptable role models for scout youth. Although the Boy Scouts have had an unwritten policy concerning gays, this is the first time in their 92-year history that it has become an actual resolution.
If you agree with their stance, bayviewbill33, that is your perogative however much I may disagree.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bayviewbill33*
Their belief in God and their stance on homosexuals does not bother me.

But don't pretend they are a tolerant organization.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I think that quote that TiredX just pasted pretty much says it all. Whether it is part of the scount handbook or not, the fact that they ARE an intolerant organization is enough for me. No way would I want my boys associated with or being mentored by people that approve of that way of thinking.


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## sugarbeth (Apr 24, 2002)

I'm getting trained as a Camp Fire leader tonight! The council loaned me the kindergarten curriculum and it looks like so much fun. I misspoke before, when I said it was a secular organization - that's not entirely true; "Worship God" is their first "law", but apparently a lot of groups change it or leave it out. It's not a requirement or anything. They don't care that I'm an atheist.









So it looks like I'll have the first preschool Camp Fire group in my area - I'm so excited! I definitely recommend looking into Camp Fire where you live, and join or start your own group. It's so easy to get a group going. You get a curriculum with a year's worth of activities outlined, even suggesting what to say at meetings.

_(edited by moderator to remove link to another forum as that is against MDC rules)_

Personally, I don't see how anyone could be part of such a discriminatory group when there are better alternatives available. Unless maybe you're actively working to change its policies instead of just ignoring them.


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

I just found out there's a spiral scouts circle starting RIGHT in my small town! yay.

<good-natured gloating over>


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *philomom*
We tried it with our son. Mostly because of the pine derby car races. After this year we are done with it. Same things everyone else mentioned. Also, because it is Dad-run, it can get chaotic. Not like the orderly and more quiet Girl Scouts at all. No offense to dads but they seem to have a high tolerance for running around, loud noise and boys doing inappropriate things.









Dad run?

dd's girl scout troup had more dads than moms volunteer, and I ran sds cub scout den







we had more moms than dads in boyscouts









-Heather


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## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
Yeah, not allowing them to join a group that is supposedly about camping & scouting (not religion or sexuality) shows real tolerance

It's a boycott, just as people boycotted buses/ golf clubs for racial discrimination even though their purpose is to provide transportation/ golf courses. And in many people's experience, Boy Scouts are very much about religion.


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## Darrel (Jul 19, 2004)

nm


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## cielle (Apr 14, 2002)

World Net Daily - great source of information







:

No, my sons won't be joining an organization that preaches homophobia.


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

.


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## Emzachsmama (Apr 30, 2004)

If my son would like to join Boy Scouts I will gladly let him and I really hope he wants to. I remember how much fun my father and brother had in Scouts and how much they bonded during those years and I would really like my son and husband have that experience. It really does depend on the leaders whether or not it is a good pack. My daughter was in Brownie Scouts a few years ago and she had horrible leaders. There was no order whatsoever. She would have been going up to Girl Scouts the next year and she was really looking forward to it because the GS leaders were wonderful...but then we found out that her Brownie leader was moving up to GS and would once again be in charge of her group...she wanted nothing to do with it after that. So much depends on the capabilities of the leaders so I really hope my son has good leaders if he decides to join.


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## cielle (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caloli*
I hadn't heard anything about the Scouting anti-gay stance, so I'll have to look into that further before I can comment.

here's some info on that from CNN:

Quote:

The Scout oath requires members to be "morally straight." The organization "takes the position that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the Scout oath ... and contrary to the Scout Law to be 'clean' in word and deed," according to Thomas E. Baker, a constitutional scholar at the Drake University Law School in Des Moines, Iowa, who wrote an impartial analysis of the case for the American Bar Association.
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/LAW/06/...gay.boyscouts/

I can't ignore this kind of stuff just for a camping trip.


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## mizraim (Jun 24, 2005)

thanks for sharing the resource. a good info.


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## pjlioness (Nov 29, 2001)

No, because of the anti-gay stance and because they don't recognize Unitarian Universalism as a religion.

I liked Girl Scouts for the most part, except that we always made great plans at cookie time about what to do with the money, then never carried most of them out. There was another troop nearby that I could have joined, but I didn't.

Now, I have 2ds's, and we are involved withour local Waldorf School,so I'd like to find some scouting-type group that is "Waldorf-y".


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## mama24boys (Jan 8, 2004)

I asked my oldest now 11 when he was in Kindergarten if he wanted to join and he said no. My then 6 now 7 yo joined last fall after asking to join. I told dh it was fine with me if he was involved. I didn't have the time to devote to it. Most of the boy scout beliefs (and how we interjprete them) are in line with ours. I've been absolutely amazed at the transformation of my husband. He has become much, much more involved with the kids. Our troop treats it more like a family activity than a dad and son one. We do alot of things where the whole family comes.


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## SparklyMoose (Feb 13, 2005)

Absolutely not. For pretty much the reasons already stated, although mostly the anti-gay thing. It bothers the crap out of me that people automatically associate GS and BS, because we are completely separate organizations, and Girl Scouts don't discriminate against anyone (except boys under 18







). I also don't like the paramilitary feel of it--in GS, you can wear a uniform if you like. In BS, 50 year old pack leaders (or what have you, as I don't know their exact terminology) wear the uniforms always, along with the boys.

I do hate to hear stories of girls who drop out of Girl Scouts after Brownies because all they ever do is crafts and cooking. Those are part of it, sure, but troops are supposed to be GIRL-led, with the leaders steering them instead of deciding for them. When I had a troop, among the things we did were camping, whitewater rafting, and horseback riding...and the older you are in Scouts, the better the stuff you can do! Encourage your daughters, find something more worthwhile for your sons, I say.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pjlioness*
No, because of the anti-gay stance and because they don't recognize Unitarian Universalism as a religion.

I liked Girl Scouts for the most part, except that we always made great plans at cookie time about what to do with the money, then never carried most of them out. There was another troop nearby that I could have joined, but I didn't.

Now, I have 2ds's, and we are involved withour local Waldorf School,so I'd like to find some scouting-type group that is "Waldorf-y".


The new handbooks recognize UU. And they all have a blank design your own patch if your religion isn't represented.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srain*

Quote:
Originally Posted by TiredX2
Yeah, not allowing them to join a group that is supposedly about camping & scouting (not religion or sexuality) shows real tolerance

It's a boycott, just as people boycotted buses/ golf clubs for racial discrimination even though their purpose is to provide transportation/ golf courses. And in many people's experience, Boy Scouts are very much about religion.

I think you misunderstood my original quote. The meaning was:

Yeah, not allowing them (openly homosexual individuals, non-Christians) to joing a group (boy scouts) that is supposedly about camping & scouting (not religion or sexuality) shows real tolerance.

I was NOT saying that boycotting the Boy Scouts was bad... in fact I have said multiple times in this thread that I don't support them, won't let DS join and even boycott companies that *do* support them.

If I am confused about the meaning of your comment (which is likely to say the least) please correct me.


----------



## kurbis (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TexasSuz*
Yes, my son will be a Boy Scout as soon as he is old enough. Dh will also work with his troup. Interesting, one of my best friends was raised an atheist and he is an Eagle Scout. He said he never had an issue with the religious aspect of scouting. He says the Boy Scout experience was incredible for him!









I agree and am looking forward to my son being a scout, and to dh being a scout leader. Many men I know had wonderful experiences as scouts and sadly, in many cases it was their only opportunity for association with a male role model.

kurbis - proud to be Catholic, wife to H







mom to little h














:














:2bfbabe:


----------



## nzjmom (Jun 28, 2005)

My 16 year old son just became an Eagle Scout, my 14 year old is in boy scouts, and 10 year old is in cub scouts. One thing to remember about scouting is that the troop you belong to is run by a chartered organization (can be a church, school, community group or just a group of parents) and the parents and boys.

My son was asked at his Eagle Boards if he would have a problem with a gay scout master. He said no, and explained that throughout his life he would be living in communities and working with all kinds of people and that he learns from people that are different from him. He passed his board.

I have been involved with scouting since my 16 year old was in second grade and nursed his youngest brother well into toddlerhood at camp outs, etc. In fact, we just took our two boys scouts to summer camp and our 10 year old was running around with the older boys and one of the moms remarked that he had been camping with the scouts since he was nursing. Our family has never found an organization that we feel is 100% representative of our beliefs. However, as a cubmaster and leader, as well as a LLL leader many "mainstream" families have watched our attachment style parenting and found many of our practices valuable.

nzjmom


----------



## nzjmom (Jun 28, 2005)

The scouts do recognize the Unitarian Universalist Church and even include it in their religious emblems program. In fact that program can start in first grade and has a program continuing through to an adult leader recognition.


----------



## patricefgay (Jun 28, 2005)

I'm surprised at the high level of antagonism toward the Boy Scouts. They are what they say they are and that is one thing I like about them. They are a group set up to honor God and country. I have a 7 year old boy who just finished his first camp experience. It was a really fun week-- there were not enough men there though-- too many women made it more fussy I think. I'm a Christian and not a homosexual hater nor do I hate anyone-- I do not look to the Scouts for anything more than camping, skills and fun. I'm also an Army wife so I probably offend many with my support of the troops. I am also an Army veteran who served 6 years. God Bless~


----------



## pjlioness (Nov 29, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers*
The new handbooks recognize UU. And they all have a blank design your own patch if your religion isn't represented.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *nzjmom*
The scouts do recognize the Unitarian Universalist Church and even include it in their religious emblems program. In fact that program can start in first grade and has a program continuing through to an adult leader recognition.

Well, I searched the BSA web site. I found their religious emblems program. It linked to http://www.praypub.org/main_frameset.htm I searched that site, and found that the Girl Scouts have UU in their religious emblems program, but the BSA do not.

Even if they do recognize UU, I would not want anything to do with an anti-gay organization. If gay children have been thrown out of troops, then the BSA is not just about "camping, skills, and fun".


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## Nayrn98 (May 27, 2005)

Yes I will allow my sons to become Boy Scouts, mainly because of the integrity they have to not change their views no matter what the "world" says they should. They hold to a higher authority and I am all for that. Does that make ME intolerant? No.. I have my beliefs and my right to exercise those beliefs as does anyone else. I am sure I will be flamed, if so, so be it. Just remember, just as your views may not match mine and I am not putting you down for it, I would expect the same courtesy from you.

:bf


----------



## Rhonwyn (Apr 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nayrn98*
Yes I will allow my sons to become Boy Scouts, mainly because of the integrity they have to not change their views no matter what the "world" says they should. They hold to a higher authority and I am all for that. Does that make ME intolerant? No.. I have my beliefs and my right to exercise those beliefs as does anyone else. I am sure I will be flamed, if so, so be it. Just remember, just as your views may not match mine and I am not putting you down for it, I would expect the same courtesy from you.

:bf


But they have changed their views. It happened about 15 years ago when a certain conservative religious organization became heavily involved in Boy Scouts and said our way or we leave and form our own group, taking all of our Scouts with us. My father has been a leader for over 25 years and he talks about when it changed. Before that, he said that Boy Scouts didn't really care about whether or not someone was an atheist or gay as long as they were a good leader. It never really came up. Local groups were allowed to reflect their communities. Perhaps some day it will change again and become more like Girl Scouts which IMO is the better organization.

Also, it is interesting that Scouts started in Great Britain and were brought here and now the orginal scouts are co-ed and very accepting of everyone. It is only the Americans (land of the free







) that are so discriminatory.


----------



## sistermama (May 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nayrn98*
Yes I will allow my sons to become Boy Scouts, mainly because of the integrity they have to not change their views no matter what the "world" says they should. They hold to a higher authority and I am all for that. Does that make ME intolerant? No.. I have my beliefs and my right to exercise those beliefs as does anyone else. I am sure I will be flamed, if so, so be it. Just remember, just as your views may not match mine and I am not putting you down for it, I would expect the same courtesy from you.


If your "beliefs" involve discrimination against others, than you don't have the same right to exercise your beliefs as others do. It is not discourtesy to point that out.


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## nzjmom (Jun 28, 2005)

I don't know if others have joined just for this forum, but I am actually not a new member just have not posted in a few months and did not remember the user name I used for mothering.com, I usually post to the breastfeeding forums because I am a LLL leader of over 10 years. I checked and The UU is not listed on the religious emblems site. I am not sure why. They are listed on the the Religious Emblems Programs Poster that I have. I posted because I saw the link on the Mothering e-letter I receive and have received for quite a while.


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## didkisa (Jun 15, 2005)

I would not allow my child to join the boy scouts because of the reasons already listed. I was raised by two gay men (I'm 32)--my father and his partner, who he's been with for more than 20 years after my mother died. I would definitely explain why he would not be able to join: "Would he really want to be part of an organization that discriminates against his grandpas??"


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## sugarbeth (Apr 24, 2002)

From the UUA's website:
http://www.uua.org/news/scouts/


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sugarbeth*
From the UUA's website:
http://www.uua.org/news/scouts/

Yet another reason I won't let my boys join (not that I needed another! :LOL ) We are a proud UU family. Isn't it a shame that the boy scouts will be losing out on all these great kids? Oh well - their loss!


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## Rhonwyn (Apr 16, 2002)

I know that they have lost many United Church of Christ families for the same reasons though at this time there is a UCC badge for religion availble for cub scouts to earn.


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## Nayrn98 (May 27, 2005)

While I don't agree with certain "lifestyles" and I am sorry, I will NEVER agree with them, I understand that they exist, and have a right to their beliefs/lifestyles. I belong to a Conservative Religious Organization (as I believe it was called) but that is MY lifestyle, why am I a bad person because my views don't agree with yours? Why is it that me saying I am Christian make me a "troll". I do love my neighbor. I would help anyone with anything I could, regardless of their lifestyle, etc. After all Jesus always loved the sinner, but didn't love the sin. I prescribe to that. As far as the boyscouts go, I have a son that will be entering Cubscouts this coming school year. I don't intend to tell him..."Now honey, the reason you are here is because gays aren't allowed". I am planning on telling him, "have a good time honey, enjoy the campouts, the crafts, knot tying, and the patriotism that boy scouts teaches." I was a girlscout. From Brownies (before Daisy's existed) through to adulthood. I never thought about the political stuff, as I was too busy camping and learning. I am very grateful to the experience. I intend to become a leader for my new daughter as soon as she is old enough. I don't really agree with the planned parenthood thing (there I go again with my conservative views, I am prolife) but I would not use that to withhold a a valuable experience from my daughter. Our children have to learn to deal with the world no matter where they go, we cannot protect them from everything. They can make up their own minds what is right for them, hence free agency to choose. I can only instill in them the values I believe, what they take from them is up to them.

Other than this, I suspect I am just like you mommies. I am involved with LLL (have been for 6 yrs and looking forward to conference!!!) I practice attachment parenting and the family bed. (which is difficult when you have a child that is a thimerasal child with bipolar and other horrible issues). I love each of you mommies. I respect your views and I respect your idealism. When I posted last night, I was in a hurry and after reading my post over, realize that it was rather defensive. I apologize for that. My only regret to you mommies and I confess it now, is that all my 3 boys are circ'd...of course I was misinformed, and would never choose it now. Well my youngest son was hypospadius so was born with a "natural" circumcision, that took 2 surgeries to correct.

Please forgive me for sounding less than I truly am. I hope to get to know you all and your various outlooks.

Renee-who also is a lactivist









:2toddler:


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## Pagan_princess (Jul 17, 2004)

My 9 year old son is in Boy Scouts. He loves it, but as of now nothing of the negative things about gay or religion have came up.

I teach my kids to love and accept anyone. He is going to have to go out in the world and deal with prejuicide and negativity anyways, and I truly believe that what I teach him will remain in his mind and heart much longer then anything that they say to him.

We are a Wiccan family, and whenever the word God is mentioned he raises his and and tells his SM that there are many Gods and Goddesses in the universe. The SM just nods his head and says "Yes there are many faiths and beliefs out there."

If I ever feel that there is a problem then I will remove him from the program.


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## Rhonwyn (Apr 16, 2002)

Anyway back on subject. The GS allow parents to decide whether or not to have the Planned Parenthood stuff. BS decide for you that gays and atheists are not allowed. GS are open to everyone (except boys under 18) while BS are not. BS are exclusionary and bigoted.

I am fortunate that our Pack ignores National and does what it wants.


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## Pynki (Aug 19, 2002)

I don't know that I would.. I wouldn't encourage it definately.. Since their mommy likes both girls and boys that could get sticky for them..

Being queer isn't a "lifestyle" You don't have a "gay " lifestyle.. well unless you're just a really HAPPY person.. Anymore than you have a redheaded lifestyle.. Or.. a green eyed lifestyle..

Or even a heterosexual lifestyle.. It's simply who and what you are.. And there are MANY families on this board who are not..

Warm Squishy Feelings..
Dyan


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## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
If I am confused about the meaning of your comment (which is likely to say the least) please correct me.

I misinterpreted your post to mean that parents who didn't let their sons join BS were intolerant. It's clear that some of the other posters think it's cool to join an organization that openly practices discrimination because they feel it benefits them/ their sons; sorry I quoted you inappropriately!


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## Camellia (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:

I would help anyone with anything I could, regardless of their lifestyle
Except to gain equal rights under the law?


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

.


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## Rhonwyn (Apr 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caloli*
Thanks, Cielle, for posting that info for me - I've done some looking around, and came back to post what I'd found, only to see that somebody else had already summed it up:

It seems to be only the Boy Scouts of America who are doing it. The Scouts group we go to has very little in common with the Scouts in America (thank goodness, from the sounds of it). I don't think I'd let my sons be involved in American Boy Scouts if we ever moved to the USA.


It really is sad because the Scouts could be such a great organization as it is in parts of the world.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

No, wouldn't let them join.
I would let them join a camping group that didn't discriminate against homosexuals and atheists and non-christians. As long as it didn't do any "we're a cute little tribe" cultural appropriation crap.
Kaly


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

Oh, and I wouldn't let them join a white supremacist group either. I'm sure they'd get a great feeling of belonging and of teamwork, but it just isn't worth it to me.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zipperump-a-zoomum*
Oh, and I wouldn't let them join a white supremacist group either. I'm sure they'd get a great feeling of belonging and of teamwork, but it just isn't worth it to me.









They ALSO haven't changed their views despite what the "world" tells them they should. And ya know the funny thing is I still don't respect them? I'm silly like that.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srain*

Quote:
Originally Posted by TiredX2
If I am confused about the meaning of your comment (which is likely to say the least) please correct me.

I misinterpreted your post to mean that parents who didn't let their sons join BS were intolerant. It's clear that some of the other posters think it's cool to join an organization that openly practices discrimination because they feel it benefits them/ their sons; sorry I quoted you inappropriately!

Not a problem. I just didn't want anyone to inadvertantly think that I actually was supporting the BS.

Thanks for the clarification, sorry I wasn't clear earlier


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## Belle (Feb 6, 2005)

I haven't read all the pp but I thought I would chime in. When I was little I was in Camp Fire for a few months. I thought that I would be out adventuring and camping like it said in the brocure. Not in the least. We did lots of stupid craft projects and sold candy to pay for those stupid craft projects and thats it. I didn't like it at all.

My younger brother got to be a boy scout and he did all kinds of fun things. He went camping several times. He went rafting, rock climbing, snow caving and all kinds of fun things. I was jealous that I couldn't join the boy scouts. They did all kinds of fun things and instilled a sense of community and responsibility in these young men. They did all kinds of charity work too.

I think it's unfortunate that the leaders of this organization, discrimiate against gays and others who do not have the same religious beliefs as they do. The only ones who this hurts are the boys in their organization. Boy scouts get less financial support because of the discriminatory practices of those in charge.

The bottom line is I have no sons. But if and when I do, I will leave the decision to join up to them. If that is something they want to do I will support them.


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## sugarbeth (Apr 24, 2002)

As the new Camp Fire leader in town, I should mention that the quality of any scouting troop really depends on how its run. The kids should be making the decisions on what they would like to do, and the leader should just facilitate and keep them focused. So if my kids wanna do camping, then we'll do camping!


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

_thread closed pending moderator review_

okay, I'm reopening this thread after having deleted something like two or three pages of inappropriate posts. If you have any questions, please familiarize yourself with the MDC User Agreement.

Quote:

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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

No. Never.
Has anyone read about the molestation cases of troop leaders? That freaks me out more than their official position on gays.

I also do not want to support an organization that is so disrespectful to others.


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## Camellia (Jun 2, 2004)

I will not join or associate with organizations that discriminate in any way. So no, I would not allow my child to join the boy scouts.


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## UmmBnB (Mar 28, 2005)

No and it really upsets me because I believe that scouting can do so much for a kid. We've just begun to look into alternatives however.

It's interesting to me, so many of our friends have their boys in scouts yet seem to share the same ideals as we do. I think I'll start asking them why. Not that it will change my mind, I'm so adamantly opposed to the Boy Scouts as an organization, but perhaps I can understand my friends a bit better.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

My son just joined tiger cubs because he really, really wanted to. His little buddies are all in it, and the leader is his best friend's daddy, and it's run out of our church, so their was some subtle pressure to join.

I am in a state of disequilibrium about it.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva*
No. Never.
Has anyone read about the molestation cases of troop leaders? That freaks me out more than their official position on gays.

I also do not want to support an organization that is so disrespectful to others.


Yeah and I think the two are tied together. Ya know very few are hiding the fact that they are a child molestar by announcing they are gay. I'd rather have an openly gay man with my child than one who might be hiding something!


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## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

No. Based on their stance regarding Atheists (which we are) and homosexuality I would NEVER allow my children to be a part of their orginization. We frown upon bigotry, we don't condone it because we might like to camp or what have you.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SugarAndSun*
Would you let your ds join the Boy Scouts? Why or why not?

I have only read the OP. Absolutely not. Why not? Because the Boy Scouts are anti-gay.

Namaste!


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## wawap (Jun 28, 2004)

nope.


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## kewb (May 13, 2005)

No. I do not agree with their position on issues important to me.


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## marycatlumom (Oct 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *patricefgay*
I'm surprised at the high level of antagonism toward the Boy Scouts. They are what they say they are and that is one thing I like about them. They are a group set up to honor God and country. I have a 7 year old boy who just finished his first camp experience. It was a really fun week-- there were not enough men there though-- too many women made it more fussy I think. I'm a Christian and not a homosexual hater nor do I hate anyone-- I do not look to the Scouts for anything more than camping, skills and fun. I'm also an Army wife so I probably offend many with my support of the troops. I am also an Army veteran who served 6 years. God Bless~

Ditto all that! I won't say much more about it because I wouldn't want anyone to call me a homophobe or close this thread because of my post.


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## momsgotmilk4two (Sep 24, 2002)

No, we are athiest so I don't think we'd fit in very well. We will probably try Guides instead, they seem pretty popular around here. Guides are through the YMCA, which is technically Christian, but they seem far less religiously oriented than Boy Scouts. I have occasionally bought things from the Boy Scouts. To not support them at all in this way would feel too much like punishing the little boy who was trying to sell something.


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## mattjule (Nov 6, 2003)

I just read through all the posts and have a couple questions:

1. Why even debate the Boy Scouts if there are other, less questionable scouting groups like Spiral Scouts or (someone mentioned) Roots and something (sorry, there were 8 pages of posts!)? I mean, why even have the question? Why not just automatically seek out the organizations that fall in line with your beliefs instead of struggle with the morals of BSA?

2. I couldn't help but wonder if part of the reason the gay issue is not an issue in GS is because gay women aren't seen as molestors the way gay men are. I mean, that is what got it widespread approval, even if the ultimate reason was religious. That is merely conjecture and something I was hoping for some insight on from those of you familiar with GS and more familiar with discrimination against gays. And probably totally OT.

And my two cents is that my sons (and only children) will not support a bigoted institution, I will find other ways to expose my children to camping and knot tying, etc. BS isn't the only place kids can learn things about nature...


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## Rhonwyn (Apr 16, 2002)

For whatever reason, in general, women seem to have less fears about homosexuality than men do. Prejudice against gay men is greater than against lesbians. People are often less accepting about gay men than they are about lesbians. Sometimes, I think it is because they don't take lesbians seriously. They look at it as a phase or they haven't met the right man yet thing.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mattjule*
1. Why even debate the Boy Scouts if there are other, less questionable scouting groups like Spiral Scouts or (someone mentioned) Roots and something (sorry, there were 8 pages of posts!)? I mean, why even have the question? Why not just automatically seek out the organizations that fall in line with your beliefs instead of struggle with the morals of BSA?


I Love the idea of scouting. I grew up in Girl Scouts. LOVED it. I would love if there were a scouting organization for my future sons too. The problem is that none of those organizations have anything in my area. And BSA is HUGE. Even if they got a start up group, they have no camps, no big gatherings, etc.

just my $.02

-Angela


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

No.


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rhonwyn*
For whatever reason, in general, women seem to have less fears about homosexuality than men do. Prejudice against gay men is greater than against lesbians. People are often less accepting about gay men than they are about lesbians. Sometimes, I think it is because they don't take lesbians seriously. They look at it as a phase or they haven't met the right man yet thing.

Well, it's the patriarchy, Rhon. Men need to be (seen as) strong and dominate other men. Homosexuality is seen as a form of weakness.

This attitude, however, is lessening as the patriarchy gradually weakens these days. The lines are less clear cut, aren't they?


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## falcon (Jul 8, 2004)

My ds is too young for boy scouts, but we've already decided against it... unless they change their stance on gays... and if they would be cool with an agnostic family joining









It's kind of a bummer, dh and I were both in scouting, it is too bad we can't share this piece of our childhood with ds.


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## Rhonwyn (Apr 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaryLLL*
Well, it's the patriarchy, Rhon. Men need to be (seen as) strong and dominate other men. Homosexuality is seen as a form of weakness.

This attitude, however, is lessening as the patriarchy gradually weakens these days. The lines are less clear cut, aren't they?


I agree Daryl and I believe that this is a hopeful thing for Boy Scouts. Scouts has so many wonderful aspects but I don't believe that the bad stuff will change unless their is change also coming from inside the organization. As more and more boys grow up accepting gays, I think there eventually will be a change at BSA.


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

She's a glass half full kinda gal!







Rhon.


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## doula jbw (Aug 12, 2004)

I was a girl scout for years and have very fond memories - camping, volunteering, learning about government, fun trips, we even toured a women's prison. All of these experiences i felt were a huge influence on turning me into the raging liberal I am today







I know it couldn't have been my mainstream, conservative parents or the 9 years of catholic school.
Now I am the mom of 2 boys and would NEVER sign them up for the boy scouts cause of all the reasons listed by the other responses. I had an idea a couple of years ago that I would start the "Earth Scouts" all based on the good stuff in the boy and girl scouts without the "bad". When I googled the name it was already taken by people doing the exact same idea I had only they were much further ahead and are really doing it. They are basing it on the earth charter and the cirriculum I have seen is absolutely wonderful. I do not have the website available to me since I am not at home but you can google "Earth Scouts" and get in touch with these amazing women putting it together. They are at the point that you can start your own group and give them feedback and ideas. I will be doing it myself this fall with my 4.5 and 6.5 year old - We can't wait.


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