# Why do people let their OB's "play god"??



## fawnanddoe (Mar 3, 2009)

Not in any of these forums, but I read a lot of things about women whose doctors won't "let them" go past their due date or 41 weeks, or they get induced early for no medical reason. I feel like more and more women are just letting these things happen and they aren't questioning it and don't realize the risks involved or that their OB might not always be right.
I've also been noticing a lot of "if the baby is too big" things, and they are talking about 8 or 9 lbs. So that is a reason for a c-section!? Has no one ever given birth vaginally to a 9 pound baby? My god. It's just infuriating!


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## GoldmanBaby09 (Apr 7, 2009)

I feel the same frustration, and I just don't get it, either. There are so many women who seem to take no personal responsibility for their bodies, their babies, or their births. I guess it is easier in some ways to just wash your hands of it and let some one else hold the bag, but that is nothing I am interested in doing. I can't imagine relinquishing what is supposed to be one of the most miraculous experiences in my life to someone who is potentially a stranger (who knows who might be on call for their delivery?!).


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## dogmom327 (Apr 19, 2007)

It's simply easier. Doing the research and taking control is hard work. I don't think most people are up to it. Plus our society puts an incredible amount of pressure on pregnant women to just do as the doctor says and insinuates that doing anything else is irresponsible and is risking the life of the baby. I feel sorry for these women.


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## rjruiz_415 (Dec 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fawnanddoe* 
Not in any of these forums, but I read a lot of things about women whose doctors won't "let them" go past their due date or 41 weeks, or they get induced early for no medical reason. I feel like more and more women are just letting these things happen and they aren't questioning it and don't realize the risks involved or that their OB might not always be right.
I've also been noticing a lot of "if the baby is too big" things, and they are talking about 8 or 9 lbs. So that is a reason for a c-section!? Has no one ever given birth vaginally to a 9 pound baby? My god. It's just infuriating!

because most people do not really think for themselves and believe that doctors know all... I do not understand it at all. I suppose they really do think Doctors are super people who know everything. Most women really do not see the benefit or purpose of researching things for them selves. Many women also have the mentality of *well so-and-so did it and her baby is fine, so it is okay...* This is a huge pet peeve of mine...


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## treetop (Jul 9, 2008)

Try having a VBAC! It is infuriating to battle all the OB/Hospital rules but try having a natural VBAC! That totally takes for another spin! Having a strong birthplan and learning to say the word "NO!" is sooo important. So is researching what is best for you and the babe so that you have some ground to stand on. Sigh...don't get me started!


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

That's why I began looking for a place like MDC - I got tired of all the "my doctor won't let me" elsewhere.

It was a midwife who encouraged me to feel empowered and responsible for my own health and body. Before then, I too used to think that doctors knew everything.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

I find that OBs really don't educate their patients on all the risks and stuff like a midwife does (there are exceptions, of course). I learned WAY more from my mw with my 2nd pregnancy then I ever knew with my OB and my first. And OBs present things like they are not options, where as a mw will present the pros/cons and let you decide. I also think that women get tired of being pregnant and would rather induce then respect their baby's timeline. Or it's more convenient for them.

And I had a 10lb 10oz baby vaginally, so I think the big baby thing is a whole load of crap! It's an excuse to schedule because it's more convenient for the OB.

Now there are valid reasons to induce or do a c/s (pre-e, previos c/s with vertical scar or complications that do increase moms risk for rupture (not a traditional c/s though), baby in distress, mom's health, etc). But those are few and far between.


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## georgiegirl1974 (Sep 20, 2006)

I think a lot of women agree to be induced before they are in labor (and before 41.5 weeks) because by that point, most women are so physically and mentally exhausted from the pregnancy, induction seems like an easy exit strategy. Most women don't know about the risks associated with induction.

I will admit, when I was pg with DD, I begged to be induced at my 40 week appointment. Fortunately, my OB told me my cervix wasn't ripe for induction. (I ended up going into labor on my own the next day.) This time I'm better informed and I would't agree to be induced unless it was medically necessary (pre-e).


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## vegasgrl (Mar 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dogmom327* 
Plus our society puts an incredible amount of pressure on pregnant women to just do as the doctor says and insinuates that doing anything else is irresponsible and is risking the life of the baby.

This.

Also, I think doctors seriously abuse their authority and power over women. It's illegal for most professionals to do that - a teacher can't have sex with a student, a police officer isn't supposed to bully someone, etc. You're not allowed to use your position of power to influence those submissive to you, you know? It's actually punishable by law.

And yet we let doctors do this over and over again. Inductions so OBs can go on vacation. Scheduled c/s to avoid 3am births. And lots of women don't even know they have options - they just assume the doctor, the one in the power position, is right. I honestly wouldn't have had a clue had I not stumbled upon MDC.

It makes me sick really. I'd love to be the Erin Brokovich of birthing; file a class action suit against providers on behalf of all birthing women. But gah, I'm having a baby on my own this fall so it's prolly not gonna happen.


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## lindsayjean (Jun 17, 2006)

Ugh, I just read a story in a stupid gossip magazine about Andy Firestone (I think he was a Bachelor?)'s wife who in the interview said she had to have a c-section because her baby was too big. Then I looked to see how big her baby was... 8lbs even! Smaller than my first who came out perfectly fine! That's not big to me at all!!

My sis in law got induced BEFORE her due date so her OB wouldn't have to be in the hospital for Christmas. Ugh.


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## fawnanddoe (Mar 3, 2009)

I agree that most OB's do not list the pros and cons for their patients. Sometimes I will watch A Baby Story (I don't know why, that show always makes me mad) and they nurse or doctor is always saying something like "Ok, we have to start you on pitocin, it will speed up labor. Then we will put your order in for an epi", they don't even give them the pitocin as an OPTION, it's always 'this is what we are going to do'. I imagine that's what it is like with inductions and everything of the sort too.
I find it really sad that women don't research their options these days. Since everyone else is doing it, it must be right. Right?


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I don't think it's as simple as saying one person does the research, so they make the right choice, and another person is lazy and so they do whatever the doctor tells them. There's an incredible amount of pressure in pregnancy and childbirth, not just from the doctor, but from society, family, other mamas, friends, even strangers chime in. And moms-to-be, especially first-timers, are often exhausted, hormonal, bewildered. They want the very best for their babies, and these options are presented as the very best choice. For every publication out there that says natural childbirth is the way to go, there's another one (or six) telling them otherwise.

Instead of judging other mothers as ignorant or assuming they didn't care enough, I like to think that every woman is coming at the childbirth experience believing she is doing the best for her child. Maybe they come to different conclusions than I do.

And maybe some moms don't research. Maybe they do just accept blindly what the doctors tell them. But I think to change that, there needs to be systemic change in our culture. It can't be laid at one woman's feet.

My two cents in, I'm going to move this into the general pregnancy forum since it's not a DDC-specific topic. That way you can get input from some other mamas as well.


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## learnlovebe (Aug 21, 2006)

While it's easy to do, it's not just the doctors who are to blame here. It's the whole industry- the hospitals, doctors, and the insurance companies. Doctors have so much liability I would be scared to be a doctor today. So people are so sue-happy, the whole profession has to make sure their behinds are covered.

Having a scheduled c-cection during office hours, with the regular staff (anestheisologist, ob, etc) already there is less risky than an emergency, middle-of-the-night c-cection---especially in a smaller hospital.

Which is also why- especially in smaller hospitals- vbacs are out of the question. Because there is a risk- no matter how small- insurance companies/heath care administrators/whomever don't even want to take the chance. Scheduling a c-section is just easier.

AND...it's about making money. A woman can't be allowed to labor too long- she's tying up a bed that could go to the next paying customer already. Get them in, get the baby out, get on to the next one. That's how (amongst other things) they make their money. Who cares if what could be amazing moments between a mother and child are lost every day???

I think a big question is...WHY aren't more women taking charge of their health care? WHY DO they just let things (interventions) happen without questioning? And...WHAT can we do to help more women think?


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## jimblejamble (May 18, 2007)

I can't respond to this thread without getting really worked up so I'll just lurk and eat my popcorn.







:


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## fawnanddoe (Mar 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *learnlovebe* 
While it's easy to do, it's not just the doctors who are to blame here. It's the whole industry- the hospitals, doctors, and the insurance companies. Doctors have so much liability I would be scared to be a doctor today. So people are so sue-happy, the whole profession has to make sure their behinds are covered.

Having a scheduled c-cection during office hours, with the regular staff (anestheisologist, ob, etc) already there is less risky than an emergency, middle-of-the-night c-cection---especially in a smaller hospital.

Which is also why- especially in smaller hospitals- vbacs are out of the question. Because there is a risk- no matter how small- insurance companies/heath care administrators/whomever don't even want to take the chance. Scheduling a c-section is just easier.

AND...it's about making money. A woman can't be allowed to labor too long- she's tying up a bed that could go to the next paying customer already. Get them in, get the baby out, get on to the next one. That's how (amongst other things) they make their money. Who cares if what could be amazing moments between a mother and child are lost every day???

I think a big question is...WHY aren't more women taking charge of their health care? WHY DO they just let things (interventions) happen without questioning? And...WHAT can we do to help more women think?

Yes, I agree with you. Money plays a huge role in everything. Pharma and insurance companies also play a huge role in the medical world. This is why I have to pay a bunch of money out of pocket to go to a freestanding birth center, because it's not associated with a hospital and therefore not deemed "safe".

I am constantly trying to get the word out there to women that they have options, because unfortunately a lot of people don't know that they do. A lot of people don't realize you can refuse a lot of things, and that's really sad!


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

I'm glad someone else mentioned a Baby Story because I was talking about this in my DDC...
That show is soo unbelievable. Those women might as well be comatose for all the thought they put into their births.

I have to disagree that it isn't that women don't educate themselves, they just genuinely think they are doing the right thing...
Yes there can be incredible pressure from friends/family/society etc; however having switched from an OB to a MW at 27 weeks I was able to see firsthand how blindly most women in the OB office would just nod their heads at whatever their doc says. I would chat with them in the waiting room and "doc says I'm going to be induced on this day and it's so exciting!!" "Oh, is something the matter?" "No what do you mean?"

They really just don't get it. I do believe that if women really educated themselves on the subject they wouldn't be so keen to flop on a bed get hooked up to monitors and have that baby yanked out of them while being screamed at to push with their legs in stirrups...How many women would be willing to push in that way if they knew how substantially it increased the risk of a serious tear or the fact that it doesn't help the baby descend at all?


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## dmariev (Nov 13, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treetop* 
Try having a VBAC! It is infuriating to battle all the OB/Hospital rules but try having a natural VBAC! That totally takes for another spin! Having a strong birthplan and learning to say the word "NO!" is sooo important. So is researching what is best for you and the babe so that you have some ground to stand on. Sigh...don't get me started!










Oh I'm right there with you!! My OB said "we don't do vbacs" to which I replied "oh, that's nice, cause I don't do repeat c-sections" He doesn't like me too much heeheehee


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## umbrella (Jul 25, 2002)

Quote:

but I read a lot of things about women whose doctors won't "let them" go past their due date or 41 weeks
Well, for some of this stuff, there really can be a power struggle at play, and if you don't want to make your waves too big, sometimes you have fewer options. If you talk with your doctor, and make clear that their professional opinion doesn't matter to you, then that's not going to be your doctor. They can say no. If your doctor says that in their opinion, it's not worth the risk to go past 41 weeks, and if you try to push that by more than a day or two, by outright refusing to submit, then that doctor can refuse to care for you, and you're left with whoever will.


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## fawnanddoe (Mar 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *umbrella* 
Well, for some of this stuff, there really can be a power struggle at play, and if you don't want to make your waves too big, sometimes you have fewer options. If you talk with your doctor, and make clear that their professional opinion doesn't matter to you, then that's not going to be your doctor. They can say no. If your doctor says that in their opinion, it's not worth the risk to go past 41 weeks, and if you try to push that by more than a day or two, by outright refusing to submit, then that doctor can refuse to care for you, and you're left with whoever will.

WHO definitions of a NORMAL pregnancy (37-42wks) by that definition "abnormal" only occurs when you hit 42+1, and I don't think that past 42 weeks is abnormal, there are a lot of mamas who gave birth later than that and their babies were not "overdue". I don't think that by telling them you refuse an induction at 41 weeks is grounds for your dismissal as a patient (and I think it's absurd that doctors can fire patients anyway since they are technically our employees).


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## fawnanddoe (Mar 3, 2009)

But also that 41 week thing isn't even about making waves. a lot of women don't even realize "normal" gestation goes up to 42 weeks.


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## belltree (Mar 10, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fawnanddoe* 
(and I think it's absurd that doctors can fire patients anyway since they are technically our employees).

So, what would actually happen, if you refuse to induce, your OB fires you, maybe even your midwife. Do you have to do an unassisted birth? Could you still go the hospital? Could they take away your rights there?


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## dmariev (Nov 13, 2008)

I have seen many times a woman say, "oh, my doc says we HAVE to induce because the baby is to big", or "because I'm past my due date"
Um, haven't our bodies been doing this for centuries?? It's irritating these days how un-educated some women are. Your body was made to do this, baby will come when its ready. Don't force it out! That can be more dangerous for your baby, than you just going a little over you ESTIMATED due date. That's another thing- a "due date" is not set in stone. A "typical" pregnancy lasts APPROXIMATELY 40 weeks, right? so that means GIVE-OR-TAKE! It can go longer, and some women never go past 38weeks. I don't even understand why most OB's push for induction. And the excuse of a baby being too big? GIVE ME A BREAK! My mother was 5'1", small frame, 110lbs before pregnancy, and she delivered a 12lb3oz baby boy, at home, med free. Um, I wouldn't believe a doc saying the baby was too big unless the baby was actually stuck in the birth canal. You see too many times on these baby shows where the ob says the baby will be too big, over 9lbs or whatever, then convince the mother she needs a c/s, and baby is born at 6 or 7lbs. It's ridiculous.

Ok, sorry, my part of the rant is over...


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## umbrella (Jul 25, 2002)

Quote:

I don't think that by telling them you refuse an induction at 41 weeks is grounds for your dismissal as a patient
I think if you tell them their professional opinion doesn't matter to you, they can certainly feel like there's no point working with you. I don't think someone has to have a "good enough" reason to decide to not work with you. They probably have their own set of things which would send up the flags, but I don't think it's like you can go to the unemployment and complain about wrongful termination like you could for a job.

I had a doctor (in a different country) tell me that I needed to find a new doctor, because she absolutely would not consider assisting a woman who insisted on delivering in any position other than in the stir-ups. Hands and knees was absolutely out of the question, she wouldn't do it, she said. And that is her choice. She was nice enough to give me a few names of doctors she thought would be willing to work with my unusual requests. She didn't fire me as a patient, but knew that I felt as strongly as she felt, and one of her criteria for having me as a patient, was that I understand she's the one running the show. She was very polite about it all too. I was glad she was so straightforward, because the next doctor I found was a better fit. I certainly wouldn't have wanted a power struggle in the delivery room. Oh, but even the doctor I did choose, she was also against the hands and knees position, but she was fine with squatting, and with a more general shift in power over to me in the first place. But just things were different there. Midwifery wasn't even an option, and the hospitals have very strict rules too.


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## umbrella (Jul 25, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *belltree* 
So, what would actually happen, if you refuse to induce, your OB fires you, maybe even your midwife. Do you have to do an unassisted birth? Could you still go the hospital? Could they take away your rights there?

There are usually other doctors in your area. But if things don't hit the fan until you're due, your options are obviously limited. You don't have much time for interviewing.

And yeah, people show up in hospitals in labor without having an assigned doc or midwife in the area.


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## fawnanddoe (Mar 3, 2009)

Well I would absolutely refuse an induction at 41 weeks. I would not say outright that I did not think their medical opinion didn't matter to me, but I would ask them if there was any medical reason why they would want to induce me at 41 weeks if normal gestation is up to 42 weeks. They couldn't tell me that normal gestation was NOT 42 weeks, and if I had a healthy pregnancy they can't make up medical reason on why they have to induce then.

Then again I would never be with a doctor or midwife that would tell me they do not let their patients go beyond that. Unfortunately this falls into the women not educating themselves. How many people do you think ask what their doctors policies are for things such as induction or cesarean rate? Sad to say probably not a lot of people do.

When I went on the tour of my birth center I asked them all sorts of questions. I asked about their transfer rate, the percentage of the transfers that result in c-section, I asked about inductions and all that good stuff, and I made an informed decision to go with them.


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## jimblejamble (May 18, 2007)

Dmariev, that's what they did to my cousin! "You're not going to be able to give birth to your baby, he will be way too big! You need a c-section!" He was just over 7 pounds.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fawnanddoe* 
Then again I would never be with a doctor or midwife that would tell me they do not let their patients go beyond that. Unfortunately this falls into the women not educating themselves. How many people do you think ask what their doctors policies are for things such as induction or cesarean rate? Sad to say probably not a lot of people do.

I think people really want to believe that by hiring a professional, someone who has years of medical school and lots of experience with delivering babies, that they are doing what they are supposed to do. They probably figure that the medical people know best, seeing that this is their profession. Also they may have spoken to friends, relatives and neighbors about birth, and been exposed to those birth experiences, so all of this seems par for the course. It's only when other people talk to them and share different experiences, or share books that look at all the issues behind the modern birth model and how it came to be, that pregnant might realize there are other options of which they need to be aware.

Also, when you are working with an OB, you really don't have the ability to let your buying power dictate--like when buying a car, for example. We can say that you are paying them, they work for you, but I don't think most OBs see it that way; with the pressures they have on them in terms of liability, they may not be willing to take what seems to be a risk and is outside of the model of birth that feels safest to them.


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## treetop (Jul 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *belltree* 
So, what would actually happen, if you refuse to induce, your OB fires you, maybe even your midwife. Do you have to do an unassisted birth? Could you still go the hospital? Could they take away your rights there?

I believe that a doctor has to give you 30 days before they will stop seeing you. Could I trust the doctor to give me the best care during the 30 days? Heck no!


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## fawnanddoe (Mar 3, 2009)

Every patient does have rights. i think I have also heard the 30 day rule too. So a doctor cannot tell a woman who is 40 or 41 weeks that he will no longer be seeing her.

And the whole getting fired as a patient thing is a non-issue because I am talking about woman that just nod their heads and say "ok!" when their doctor tells them they have to be induced. The women who don't question it and just go along with it. Anyone that is dead set against it would probably know ahead of time what the doctor's policies are.


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## sunflwrmoonbeam (Oct 9, 2006)

Part of it is the 'doctor knows best' mentality we have in this culture, part of it is that doctors simply refuse to educate their patients anymore, and part of it is outright bullying.

For the first 20 weeks of this pregnancy I was seeing both an OB and a homebirth midwife, and the differences were amazing. My midwife listened to me, talked me through my (many and absurd) fears (I may win a 'most neurotic homebirther' award







), showed me how things work, and generally has taught me a lot. My OB and her staff would barely look me in the eye, used "but you don't want to hurt your baby" as their FIRST line of reasoning, and couldn't explain anythign to me at all.

Case in point, at my 16 week checkup: "Ok, drink this, wait an hour and get your blood drawn." Me: "My dr. says I don't need to this." Nurse: "But you're on metformin." Me: "I"M NOT DIABETIC!!!!" (I have PCOS) Nurse: "well, we'll do it anyways." Me: "Doctor says I don't need it." Nurse: "But you don't want to hurt your baby, do you?"

Yeah, I stopped going to an OB shortly after that.

I ahve a friend who's as pregnant as me and the difference in care we're receiving is similarly stunning. My MW has shown me how to figure out how my baby is positioned; my friend thinks you can't do that without ultrasound. Etc. etc. etc.


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## WaitingForKiddos (Nov 30, 2006)

IMO it's such a mix of everything that has been mentioned.

Also, I think that for a lot of mamas, some Docs (and even midwives) don't get into the 'what do you want during labor' discussion before the client feels it's 'too late' to do anything about it. There's lots of 32+ weeks mamas around here who are firing their OBs.

Personally, I know of NO woman my age (30) who went in to a hospital and came out without Pit, Epi or a section. Every. Single. One. I find this insane....even if the mama 'chose' it.









My HMO doc told me all about how she delivers at the local hospital with the amazing NICU at my first prenatal. The second visit she reminded me that I might miscarry (no reason, just because I was in 1st tri) She made me feel like sh&t when I asked for a dr's note for less work hours. She was laying the ground work, intentionally or not, for being The One In Charge. I've read of the punishments dished out to women who question The One In Charge....episitomies, sections, cps, rough handling, or simply yelling at mama.

It's really frickin' hard to buck the system. Some folks are good at it....and most of 'em will tell you they sometimes wish they could just go with the flow more. Some folks want to challenge the system but don't know how when every. single. person. around them thinks the status quo is a-oaky. Then some folks don't even know there's any way but the way they are told.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DahliaRW* 

Now there are valid reasons to induce or do a c/s (pre-e, previos c/s with vertical scar or complications that do increase moms risk for rupture (not a traditional c/s though), baby in distress, mom's health, etc). But those are few and far between.

Yeah I am one of these people. I have a weird T-incision internally and it makes me a pretty high rupture risk because my scarring is so different that it may not be able to handle contractions. Since I did go to 41 weeks though my Dr and her colleague are willing to let me go to very close to 40 weeks, so I am completely happy with the situation.

I'm totally educated about the scenario, there's just not that much info out there because T-incisions are far from the norm with c/s. I was told the day after DD was born that since she had been so stuck so sideways and far down that this had to be done like that to get her out. The Dr informed me that most women who have had a c/s can very easily have a vbac, but in my case it is extremely risky to myself and my baby.

As my DH says Dr are just like mechanics only they work on bodies, so there are good ones and there are bad ones. I tend to agree with him on this.


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## texmati (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WaitingForKiddos* 
My HMO doc told me all about how she delivers at the local hospital with the amazing NICU at my first prenatal. The second visit she reminded me that I might miscarry (no reason, just because I was in 1st tri) She made me feel like sh&t when I asked for a dr's note for less work hours. She was laying the ground work, intentionally or not, for being The One In Charge. I've read of the punishments dished out to women who question The One In Charge....episitomies, sections, cps, rough handling, or simply yelling at mama.


This is so true... I know so many women in my family who were bullied into doing things they didnt' agree with. (circing my brother, csections, ect).

It's sad. I wonder if they could get away with it with men?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I'm surprised how often "these days" or "today" are popping up in this thread.

When I had ds1 in 1993, everybody went to the doctor (GP, not an OB...I have the impression that Canada's medical system isn't _quite_ as specialist oriented as in the US - don't know anybody who has a pediatrician, either). Midwifery wasn't even legal here for another year. When my mom had my brother, in 1963, you did what the doctor said - no questions (mom questioned, but it didn't get her very far). The 1940s...twilight sleep. The "do what the doctor tells you and your baby will be okay" attitude is hardly a new thing.

We notice it, because this is a natural-birth focused community, because certain interventions (induction and c-section come to mind, in particular) are drastically increasing, and because we're exposed to a different focus than many (most?) moms are. But, how much worse is it, in other ways? I don't think we have anything close to the episiotomy rate we used to have. Nobody is taking Thalidomide in 2009.

I think this problem has been around for a long time, and, if anything, it's just becoming more polarized, partly _because_ of the growing interest in natural childbirth, homebirth, midwifery care, etc.

I think the biggest issue isn't even the medpros (and they're not my favourite group of people). It's the culture. Many of us have commented on the way birth is portrayed in the media. That goes back a long way. How many children in literature have been orphaned, because mom conveniently died in childbirth? How many women in tv shows and movies are depicted as howling, irrational, pain-maddened animals? (Sometimes, I think comedies are the worst.)

Then, there's the pressure from family and friends to just do what the doctor tells you. There's the cultural belief that if a baby dies in the hospital, it was unavoidable, and everything possible was done...but if it happens at home, then a hospital and OB could have prevented it.

There's pressure. There's fear. You know...I sincerely hope that, if dd decides to have children, she goes the midwifery route - and preferably a homebirth. But...she lost her baby brother in a homebirth attempt when she was 4 years old. How much impression does that leave? No matter how much research one does, there are always going to be the social and emotional issues to wrap around it.

Heck - I'm going back into the hospital this time, and it's mostly because I'm afraid that something will go wrong again, and I've lost all faith in _my_ body's ability to give birth. Personally, I think that's _because_ of the medpro's, but it is what it is...and if something does go wrong, there won't be _anybody_ pointing a finger at me and saying "it's your fault - you were irresponsible". That happens when you buck the trend. I think it's says a lot more about the nasty, small-minded kind of person who could blame and punish someone for a terrible loss than it does about the mom's birth choices...but, believe me, having people blame you and shun you for losing a child is painful - very painful.

I was told by a woman in my choir, two days ago, that her sister swears by c-sections and says they're the way to go.

I really think it's kind of condescending to just say, "oh, she listens to her OB, because she's too lazy to do the research". When you have no real life support (and even if you do), stepping outside the boundaries of "normal" is _hard_. Doing it while you're pregnant - tired, emotionally vulnerable, concerned about your baby, etc. etc. - is even more so, ime.

There's also the incredible value we place on book learning. The OB has studied all this stuff. He/she has a degree in this stuff. It's very hard for some people to put their own gut instincts and research (probably only a few months worth) up against the pros. If we want to know the legal way to handle something, we get a lawyer. If we want to know the tax advantages to a financial decision, we consult an accountant. If we have a leaky pipe, we call a plumber. If our car is making funny noises, we see a mechanic. People are used to trusting the experts...and birth is no different.

OBs don't, ime, inform patients about risks and benefits. (I've had four c-sections, and I've never had a medpro inform me of _any_ risk to the surgery. It's always been presented as 100% safe, and as a guarantee of a healthy mom and a healthy baby. My own objections have been dismissed with "we just want a healthy mom and a healthy baby". There's _no_ information on risks - none.) The oh-so-experienced OB tells the first-time mom - who may have listened her whole life to her own mom's horror story about a painful birth with a big baby - that the baby is "too big" and it's not safe to birth, so a c-section is necessary. It's really not hard to understand why she listens, yk?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *texmati* 
It's sad. I wonder if they could get away with it with men?

Honestly...I don't think they try it as much with men, but I think they could get away with it. I've noticed that men, in general, are less willing to see a doctor than women...but also more likely to take every word out of that doctor's mouth as gospel. I've known _so_ many men who just start taking whatever pill the doctor gives them - and completely dismiss the concerns of their wives/gfs, who are handing them research on the side effects and such. I don't know how far it extends outside my circle, but I've come across it a _lot_.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dmariev* 
I have seen many times a woman say, "oh, my doc says we HAVE to induce because the baby is to big", or "because I'm past my due date"
Um, haven't our bodies been doing this for centuries??

Far longer. However, we, as a society, have also been indoctrinated in the idea that without doctors and hospitals, babies (and moms) die in huge numbers. If a woman has internalized that, she's not going to think, "oh - how ridiculous - lots of women have big babies or go overdue". She's going to think, "oh - I'm one of the ones who would have lost her baby in the old days." She believes the doctor knows the risk factors for losing her baby, because he/she is an "expert".


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## ell (Jan 3, 2009)

Do people in general question anything with their doctors? "You have cancer. You need chemo." Do most people question that or go do a ton of research and challenge their doctor? No. So it's no surprise that most people don't challenge their doctors in childbirth either.

Having said that, I think docs - and women who listen to their docs - do get a worse rap than is deserved.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WaitingForKiddos* 
It's really frickin' hard to buck the system. Some folks are good at it....and most of 'em will tell you they sometimes wish they could just go with the flow more.

I sincerely wish that c-sections didn't bother me at all. I wish I had the "give me the epi in the parking lot" mindset. I envy it, from the bottom of my heart. I want to be like my SIL, who had an induction, "failed to progress" and had a c-section...and was relieved. I'm not like her...but I wish I were. I really do.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ell* 
Having said that, I think docs - and women who listen to their docs - do get a worse rap than is deserved.

hmm...I don't. I think it's unfortunate that we've put OBs in the position of being "experts" and that we suffer from a widespread perception that they care about our best interests. They're dangerous, imo - their arrogance and ignorance can kill, and can also cause tons of damage, both physical and psychological, to the people who trust them to know what they're talking about...and to be honest about the risks, and about their own motives. They like to be on a pedestal, but they don't want to take the heat that comes with it. I don't think they get an unduly bad rap at all.

I do think the women who listen to them get a worse rap than they deserve, though. Our society protects the image of these people as trustworthy experts, who are looking out for our best interests...and a lot of people really believe it.


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## stephanie95 (Jan 8, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
As my DH says Dr are just like mechanics only they work on bodies, so there are good ones and there are bad ones. I tend to agree with him on this.

I would have to agree with your DH. My OB is exceptional. He does a very good job of informing me of options & risks, giving us time to decide, not being more invasive than needed. Without going on a tangent, I had a terrible experience with the midwife group at the local hospital.

Where I live, midwives are just starting to be funded through the province. I know there are good ones but you have to pay big bucks out of pocket. However, I would never go back to the ones I had.

Frankly, I think it depends all upon the individual care provider. Sometimes it is very difficult to discern who is good and who isn't. I have gotten smarter with each of my pregnancies, even those that ended in loss. I do believe OBs and midwives operate differently, but I don't think to chose a care provider because they fall into either category is wise either. At the end of the day, both are falible human beings. Neither is exempt from mistakes, thinking powered by ego, and other human afflictions.

If the birth "industry" is going to change, mothers have to be at the helm. As long as women are complacent in receiving care, there will never be a need to change.


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## mamatolevi (Apr 10, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *texmati* 
This is so true...
It's sad. I wonder if they could get away with it with men?

I've noticed a marked difference between in CP attitudes when it's just me in there vs. when it's me and my DH. They are much more respectful when DH is present - male or female. sickening.


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## WaitingForKiddos (Nov 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Honestly...I don't think they try it as much with men, but I think they could get away with it. .

This reminded me of the ob who branded a woman's uterus with the initals of his medical school. Happened a few years ago.


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## Full Heart (Apr 27, 2004)

Storm Bride I have to agree with everything you have said. I always value your posts, they are always thoughtful.

I understand the frustration people feel when watching someone blindly follow any drs advice without first taking all the risks and benefits into consideration. They truly feel that drs are looking out for their best interests though, they are the ones who are educated extensively in this field. Why should someone have to do the research that their drs already have done? Of course they fail to realize that its their body and no one knows it like they do. They fail to realize their dr doesn't know everything there is to know. That the information their dr has is not contained in a secret library that you only get the key to once you graduate med school. The information is there for them too.

However there are so many reasons why women do get induced and go with the epi and do what their drs say. I've discussed here how I was forced to have induced labors at home. My choices were be dropped by my mw (which funny they don't have the same laws drs do. They don't have to continue care for 30 days), go unassisted or go to the hospital. If I wanted my homebirth with my mw guess what I had to do. If a woman wants her hospital birth with her dr guess what she has to do? This pg has taught me so much about respect for other peoples decisions. And you know no one has to justify their decisions to anyone else. Its theirs and theirs alone. And if you start bashing people for their decisions don't be surprised if they start doing it to yours. I have to tell you if my mw said you have to go be induced right now because you are 41 weeks I would say ok. Without hesitation. And I've planned hbs for all my kids. Life happens. Fears creep up. We don't know what womans lives are like, before pg or during. We don't know what they have been through, what they have seen, what underlying fears they have.

As Storm Bride said

Quote:

I do think the women who listen to them get a worse rap than they deserve, though. Our society protects the image of these people as trustworthy experts, who are looking out for our best interests...and a lot of people really believe it.
Blaming the mothers is not going to help. Women need support. And this is def not a new thing. When my mother had me she did whatever she was told. She went along with everything because it was what you did. My mil had twlight sleep, you certainly had no choices then. If anything its gotten better. Things are less dangerous now for the most part. But we have hit a plateau.

I agree women need to be the ones to force change, but they have to be empowered to do that. Its good to ask why they go along with drs but we should ask it in a way that we aren't judging.


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## ell (Jan 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
hmm...I don't. I think it's unfortunate that we've put OBs in the position of being "experts" and that we suffer from a widespread perception that they care about our best interests. They're dangerous, imo - their arrogance and ignorance can kill, and can also cause tons of damage, both physical and psychological, to the people who trust them to know what they're talking about...and to be honest about the risks, and about their own motives. They like to be on a pedestal, but they don't want to take the heat that comes with it. I don't think they get an unduly bad rap at all.

They do care about our best interests. It's just that their teaching and belief system leads them to believe that their way is the best and only way. OBs see everything - from the easiest birth to the most horrid. They are naturally conservative in terms of treatment and yes, they will go to intervention far more quickly than a midwife will. Does this make them evil? No. It makes them conservative. Sure, there are bad seeds that schedule c-sections to make tee times but I truly believe those are the minority and the majority of doctors would rather see a woman with a stress-free vaginal birth. The fact is, doctors save lives every day. Yes, there are more interventions than there should be, and that needs to be changed. But even with that, more lives are saved than are lost.

But there are those who choose to believe that allopathic medicine is evil and there's no way to convince them otherwise.


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## texmati (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ell* 
Do people in general question anything with their doctors? "You have cancer. You need chemo." Do most people question that or go do a ton of research and challenge their doctor? No. So it's no surprise that most people don't challenge their doctors in childbirth either.

Having said that, I think docs - and women who listen to their docs - do get a worse rap than is deserved.


not to get into a debate, but I just had this conversation with a good friend of the family-- a cardiologist/surgeon. She was upset that I was *gasp* interviewing doctors.

OB-ing is different than a lot of other practices. Heart surgeons save lives every day. So do oncologists. OB's don't. Their job is to assist the mother into bringing a baby into this world. A *lot* of that has to do with educating the parents, listening to the mother ect. So the mother should question the OB, and the OB should educate the mother.

ETA, I do agree that there are good and bad docs (and midwifes, for that matter), and it's possible to find good ones.


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## flowers (Apr 8, 2004)

THIS IS IT!!!!!!!!!

I think about this all the time! I think this is exactly the place where change can occur. I think it's futile to try to expect the doctors to change and educate the women. It's time for the women to educate the doctors! That is such a powerful switch!

I'm very independent and strong minded, but even I go into a weird mode around doctors. (Which is why I never went to one while pregnant). I even did it around my mw. Started acting all quiet and soft-spoken and sometimes left without saying what I wanted to say. I'm very aware of it and with my ds2 I made a pact that I would be my own provider and anyone else was my support team. This felt so much better!

So how do we do this? I don't have any concrete answers but I think we are heading into this direction anyways. People are questioning and self-educating and we can just support anyone we know. When I am talking to a pregnant mama who says, "oh I have to do this test, but I'm not sure." I always gently remind her that she does not have to do anything! It's totally up to her and it's so important for her to self-educate so she knows what she wants and doesn't want. Most women don't even know they can decline certain tests or procedures. So first step is just getting that out there.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dmariev* 
Oh I'm right there with you!! My OB said "we don't do vbacs" to which I replied "oh, that's nice, cause I don't do repeat c-sections" He doesn't like me too much heeheehee

I love this!







!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WaitingForKiddos* 
This reminded me of the ob who branded a woman's uterus with the initals of his medical school. Happened a few years ago.

This is extreme and completely DISGUSTING!

There is that story of an edition of Williams Obstetrics (the bible of obstetrics) that had this included in the index:

chauvenism, male: entire edition

I forget the exact wording but it seems there was an editor who was just a bit fed up!









That's what we need...fed up women ready to make a change.


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## AnnR33 (Aug 1, 2002)

I really try to not judge others but it's so hard to hear of others that don't question anything that is being done to them. I was on another board and some moms were talking about having blood work and internal exams at 36 or 38 wks. I asked what the blood work was for since I never heard of having blood work done that late...the mom had no idea. She just does it. Arg! This makes me sad!

I tried to gently insert some comments about why internal exams are not necessary but I think most think of them see it as a gauge of progress and want to know if they are 1 cm, etc even if it means nothing in the big picture. It frightens me that an OB/dr/etc would do an unnecessary internal exam for some inaccurate "progress" check and possibly introduce bacteria or who knows what else.

I try to educate when possible but I know it's an uphill battle. I figure if I can encourage a few moms to question their dr and think harder about what is done to them then I'm happy that these few are more in control of their situation.


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## jammomma (Nov 17, 2008)

I think there are a lot of women (and men) who simply don't want to do their own thinking.

Many people just want others to make the decisions for them.

There are many people that were never taught critical thinking skills, and many people don't like to read or learn new things or accpet responsibilty for the choices they make in life.

I think when making healthcare and birthing decisions it comes down to simple differences in the ways that people choose to live their lives.

There are always going to be people that slavishly follow whatever an authority figure tells them without question, whether that authority figure is a doctor, their government, or their religion.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Moved to Birth and Beyond, since this is more of a birth topic than pregnancy.


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## fawnanddoe (Mar 3, 2009)

This thread has become a for doctors or against doctors discussion. I do have a few things that I want to add.

First off, pregnancy and birth is not a disease. Yes, there are some women who have complications during pregnancy and need interventions during pregnancy and birth, and doctors are great for that, BUT the majority of women have uncomplicated pregnancies and do not need these medical interventions.
A few years ago the cesarean rate was 1 in 5 women. It is now 1 in 3 women. Does that statistic scream "these OB's have our best interest at heart!" no, not at all. The fact that the cesarean rate has gotten so drastic is scary!
OB's are specialists. They are not specialists in normal, unmedicated vaginal births. If you watch The Business of Being Born you will see all of those OB's say that in their years of training they did not see a "normal birth". So you are trusting these people that were not trained in normal vaginal birth but they were extensively trained in complications, medicine, and interventions.
I do believe that not all OB's are the same, and there are some great ones out there, but for every good one there's a huge handful of not so good ones.

I had to go to L&D once during this pregnancy for a kidney stone. Let me tell you, I was NOT informed, and I was really trying to be informed. I was asking them constantly "why do you need to do this?" and what exactly were they going to do. I asked them exactly what they were going to test my blood for. Then I was told that I needed to be hooked up to an IV. I asked them why because I was perfectly capable of keeping myself hydrated. Eventually because it was so late I got the IV because I really needed to sleep and not drink water, what a nightmare that was, it took THREE nurses to put the IV in me, this is where they deliver babies! I would be pissed if I was in labor and three different nurses are sticking a needle in me and not getting it right. Eventually they got it. I woke up several times and my arm was hurting a lot, finally when I was awake for good I called the nurse to take the IV out. I was ignored the first time and told to go back to sleep and it would be fine. I buzzed her again and said no, take this IV out. She promptly said "I need to call someone and ask because you need that". What? No I don't! Finally she came and took it out.
So, I'm getting off my point here, but I was very knowledgeable and I questioned them a lot. I left feeling like I did not have a ton of interventions, although I felt as though there were some that were forced on me.
I finally got my hospital bill and WOW WAS I SURPRISED!
So I got an internal exam to make sure I was not dilated, simple, right? Turns out that wasn't the only thing I got! Apparently they gave me the fetal fibronectin test. I talked to my midwife before I went into L&D (I was out of town at the time) and she told me about this test and that it was expensive and unnecessary and that they wouldn't do it unless I was having contractions and/or dilated. This test was almost $700. I asked them what they were going to do and they didn't tell me that.
Also, turns out they tested me for syphilis and gonorrhea. Almost $500 worth of STD tests that I have already had. If they had read my file that my birth center faxes them they would know this, and when I asked them what they were testing me for they did not tell me STD's. I would have told them no, it's not needed.

Anyway, I tried. I was very persistent, I was probably their least favorite patient, and I got home, got the bill and felt completely violated. I am contesting those charges, there is no way I am paying for something that was not needed and I would have declined.

Also, someone mentioned that patients don't question when a doctor tells them they have cancer. For one thing, if you have a disease and you are going in for testing to find out what that disease is, that's one thing. You need interventions, you are sick and have a disease. When you are pregnant it is not a disease.

I do feel some women get a worse rap than they should, but then again there are a whole bunch of women out there who will blatantly tell you they don't care and the doctor can do whatever he wants because he's doing it for a reason, or because it's best. Or whatever.


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## rainashine (Oct 29, 2008)

Storm Bride and Full Heart, I really appreciated your posts.

Being one of the mamas who had a 41 week arbitrary induction that ended in a c-section, I find the mama blaming rhetoric on these types of threads very frustrating. I truly did not know. And the thing that is frustrating is that I don't know how I could have known that I even needed to do research. It's all great to say mamas need to take contol, make their own decisions, and that they are just stupid for not questioning anything. But seriously, I think for the majority of women out there, it's not a matter of just wanting to go along with things because it's easier. It's a matter of not having ANY information that indicates otherwise.

I really thought I was informed. I knew about doulas but thought dh would be enough. I wanted a natural birth and the hospital was great at mascarading as supportive of that. I'd never heard of delivering in anyway but on my back. It never occured to me that you could check hospital statistics or that would even be helpful.

While I was pregnant, I read breastfeeding books, Week-by-Week, and What to Expect. No one, and I mean NO ONE, recommended anything else to me. No one, even those who knew I found out later, told me my choice of hospitals (chosen by proximity of course) had a reputation for inductions and slicing and dicing.

Now I'm looking into becoming a doula and CBE probably some in reaction to what I went through. But know that me in those roles will never impact those like me before I had my child because they just don't know.

I think my point is that our whole culture surrounding birth is such that women are so ignorant of normal birth that they don't know that they're not informed. Please stop blaming the mamas! Any maybe a few well placed gentle comments to a mama-to-be can really make a difference.


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

i really wish there was a way to do something about bad doctors and nurses who give misinformation.
i was lurking on mdc and researching birth while pregnant with my first and i remember being in an argument about induction. they had been trying to induce me since one day before my edd. i was 41 weeks and they were having a fit. the nurse was literally yelling at me that i was overdue and my baby would die if i didnt get induced. i said 'im not overdue until after 42 weeks' and she asked me if i ever had a baby before i said no and she said 'well then how would you know if this is normal or not. youre not a doctor!'
she yelled at me and made me feel tiny and stupid. incredibly stupid. like i was only 20 what could i know.

it still makes me so angry! i even had my membranes forcibly swept without my permission which broke my water and put me on the clock and then throughout labor i had doctors calling me in my hospital room all of them finding new ways to play the dead baby card.

no one deserves what happened to me. i wish there was some way i could get their licenses revoked.


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## SashaBear (Aug 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I sincerely wish that c-sections didn't bother me at all. I wish I had the "give me the epi in the parking lot" mindset. I envy it, from the bottom of my heart. I want to be like my SIL, who had an induction, "failed to progress" and had a c-section...and was relieved. I'm not like her...but I wish I were. I really do.


This is so me! I wish I didn't have a problem with my c-section. I wish it didn't make my heart ache. Honestly I recovered faster with my c-section than my vaginal with epis. Sometimes I dread the idea of having another child because of the fight I will have with family if I go for a HB or doctors if I go hospital VBAC.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
As my DH says Dr are just like mechanics only they work on bodies, so there are good ones and there are bad ones. I tend to agree with him on this.

I disagree. I think the % of bad American OBs is much higher than the % of bad American mechanics. I say this because of our culture:

birth is seen as a medical event (DOC IN CHARGE - not woman - & her emotional state of mine is irrelevant)
OBs don't practice evidence-based care & don't seem to think they need to
The obstetric "Omerta" (OBs can do no wrong, view protecting the interests of OBs as far more important than the actual health & safety of women & babies, and won't speak out against one another, even if they recognize malpractice) (See "Born in the USA" by Dr. Marsden Wagner)
I think American obstetrics is in a sorry state. MUCH WORSE than american car mechanics.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dogmom327* 
Plus our society puts an incredible amount of pressure on pregnant women to just do as the doctor says and insinuates that doing anything else is irresponsible and is risking the life of the baby.









:
ITA with that whole post, but especially that.

Additionally - it's a simple equation that goes as follows

Birth is risky
birth is a (risky) _medical_ event
we must rely on doctors to handle risky medical matters
we must rely upon, and fully trust doctors to handle birth
I love the joke from that famous "PING" Monty Python sketch, the OB says to the Mom, "You're not qualifed, dear!"

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fawnanddoe* 
They couldn't tell me that normal gestation was NOT 42 weeks, and if I had a healthy pregnancy they can't make up medical reason on why they have to induce then.

Actually, the risk of stillbirth does rise slightly at 41W. Granted, we all know there is risk in induction too - but there IS some, slight risk in going beyond 41W.


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## amandaleigh37 (Jul 13, 2006)

I haven't read all of the other responses but I'll throw in my $.02...

This was me at my first birth. I never questioned anything. In all of my experience, everything I'd heard from family, the way I was raised, etc. - doctors knew everything. To question or go against what a doctor wanted was pretty much putting your baby in danger. Doctors = safe. I never would have considered that the doctor would want to induce me for convenience. I assumed it was because it was best for my baby, which was ALL I cared about.

Now, of course, I know better. And this shift in thinking started when I began reading and listening to other women who KNEW BETTER. I don't think I was "stupid" before, I was just doing my best based on my experience. And sadly, raised in a family where no one would ever DARE question a doctor, that's what I thought was "right". I had never heard women talk about taking control over their birth, or the risks of "unnecessary" interventions - my doctor never once mentioned a risk of ANYTHING he wanted to do, so it's no wonder that many women don't believe there are any.

I also know it's hard to remember what it's like to think that way, once you've "seen the light", so to speak. I wish I could go back 2 years and shake some sense into the old me before I had my son.







But thankfully, I found this place and started reading and learning to question things and I'm better off now because of it.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainashine* 
I find the mama blaming rhetoric on these types of threads very frustrating....While I was pregnant, I read breastfeeding books, Week-by-Week, and What to Expect. No one, and I mean NO ONE, recommended anything else to me.










Yup, lots of Mamas can feel totally informed. I read "The Mayo Clinic Guide to a Health Pregnancy" & it actually said, "The CS rate is around 25%. There is nothing you can do to reduce your risk of a CS."








BS!!! What a TOTAL







LIE! But how is the average Mama to have know that the biggests risk factors for having a CS are the HCP & facility you choose???? How is the average Mama to know that so many CS were iatrogenic - Doctor caused & could have been avoided if the doc didn't unnecessarily intervene in the normal process?

It's a shame.

But what DOES annoy me are the people I meet casually who I try to clue in... who I TELL that I discovered, thanks to reading "Thinking Woman's Guide" "Pushed" "Born in the USA" & the movie BoBB, that there is a CHASM b/t evidence and pracitce. THat the CS rate is MORE THAN DOUBLE what the World Health Org says it safely should be.

When I tell them this & they still don't investigate further, still keep planning to deliver at hospitals with CS rates around 40some %) THEN I get annoyed..... (Co-workers of mine)


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ell* 
Do people in general question anything with their doctors? "You have cancer. You need chemo." Do most people question that or go do a ton of research and challenge their doctor? No. So it's no surprise that most people don't challenge their doctors in childbirth either.

Having said that, I think docs - and women who listen to their docs - do get a worse rap than is deserved.

Actually, I did question when I had cancer, and I was only 18. I asked for articles and stats to back up the course of treatment they were recommedning (which they gave me). I also went to a local universities medical library and accessed medical journals online (my mom was a student there and logged me in). Now, probalby most people wouldn't do that. But in all honesty, my otolarongologist and oncologist were WAY better and discussing pros/cons and making sure I was giving informed consent (even before I questioned them) then any OB I have ever met. I really do think that there is a problem with a lot of OBs not practicing evidence based care. Oncologists and such HAVE to be up to date with new practices and procedures, they have committees at hospitals that discuss cases and courses of treatment. OBs don't have that, and it doesn't seem that many care to have that type of collaboration either.

Now the whole blame the mom/blame the OB thing. I think it goes both ways. I definitely blame myself for being so ignorant about my ds1's birth even if I wasn't sure where/how to reasearch. But I also blame my OB for not giving me adequate information or helping me there. And I learned from friends and others after that and ended up with a wonderful hb with ds2. So now I give friends resources to learn when they are pregnant. And I only blame those women for being ignorant who refuse to use their brains and look into things for themselves _when the resources are offered_.

On a slightly different train of thought, if it's about the money (as mentioned earlier), then how do stats compare between the US and countries with UHC? I believe here in the US, the c/s rates are lower at military hospitals than civilian ones, and I'd believe that the money could make the difference there.


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## fawnanddoe (Mar 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 

But what DOES annoy me are the people I meet casually who I try to clue in... who I TELL that I discovered, thanks to reading "Thinking Woman's Guide" "Pushed" "Born in the USA" & the movie BoBB, that there is a CHASM b/t evidence and pracitce. THat the CS rate is MORE THAN DOUBLE what the World Health Org says it safely should be.

When I tell them this & they still don't investigate further, still keep planning to deliver at hospitals with CS rates around 40some %) THEN I get annoyed..... (Co-workers of mine)

This is exactly how I feel too. I don't think that women are stupid. I do believe that some women think they are informed when they really aren't. It definitely has a lot to do with our culture and what is "socially acceptable" or "right". I would probably never go to an OB myself, but that's what is correct for me and not everyone feels the same way. I respect that some women want to do things differently because my way is not the only way. BUT there is a lot of pure ignorance out there! I have done more research having to do with birth than I probably did throughout all of high school! Because of that I can pull up tons of articles, statistics, I can even go through pros and cons of tons of different things and support those pros and cons with percentages. I can recommend books or DVD's to watch to get a different perspective and the majority of the time when I suggest these things or have a discussion about these subjects people are *not willing* to even check out my side of the story! I have had very heated discussions with people about everything from birth to circ to vax to breastfeeding to cloth diapering and the list goes on! I have been told that just because I am going natural doesn't mean I am a hero and they offer epidurals for a reason.

And I think this is my biggest issue, the ignorance factor. It's not the women who truly believe they are informed and doing the right thing, it's the women who will not even listen to the other side of the story, the women who are not willing to investigate anything further.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ell* 
They do care about our best interests.

Do you have any evidence of that at all, or is it just your personal belief? I know there are individual OBs who care about the best interests of their "patients", but that doesn't mean that the obstetrical industry does, or that all the care providers do. My personal experience with OBs says you're wrong. Someone on a bb expressing an insubstaniated claim that my best interests are even on their radar isn't going to change what I've seen with my own eyes.

Quote:

It's just that their teaching and belief system leads them to believe that their way is the best and only way. OBs see everything - from the easiest birth to the most horrid. They are naturally conservative in terms of treatment and yes, they will go to intervention far more quickly than a midwife will. Does this make them evil? No. It makes them conservative.
I had an OB tell me that if I didn't have surgery when he wanted me to, he'd drop me from care - at over 41 weeks pregnant. (That particular OB is one I've seen work before, and he's not a misogynistic jerk, nor is he particularly c-section happy...but he's convinced that he is right.) I had another OB do a c-section after I said "no". Maybe they do care about the best interests of the people in their care...but if they can't be bothered to find out what those interests _are_ or to listen when they're told, in so many words, then what they're thinking is irrelevant. The OB who threatened me with abandonment was pleased as can be that his "push" (his word) was successful. He was convinced that I was okay with the c-section, because I had a healthy baby. I'd had two c-sections before that, and had clearly and repeatedly explained that a c-section was _not_ a good outcome for me - period. He wasn't listening, because he didn't care what was best for me. He cared about his guidelines. Treating fully grown women as if they're brainless infants without the sense to come out of the rain (if they need to) isn't looking out for anyone's best interests - it's stroking one's own ego. OBs bringing up one's "option" for a tubal at _every_ prenatal appointment, when it's already been clearly declined multiple times, are not looking out for the best interests of their patients. OBs who frame the procedures they don't want you to undertake in the scariest possible terms, while completely neglecting to even _mention_ the risks of the procedures they do want you to undertake, are not looking out for your best interests.

Quote:

Sure, there are bad seeds that schedule c-sections to make tee times but I truly believe those are the minority and the majority of doctors would rather see a woman with a stress-free vaginal birth.
Who decides what constitutes "stress-free"? Doctors aren't listening to what women want to have happen in L&D. How can they possibly be looking out for the best interests of their patients when they can't even be bothered to find out what those interests _are_?

Quote:

The fact is, doctors save lives every day. Yes, there are more interventions than there should be, and that needs to be changed. But even with that, more lives are saved than are lost.
Again - do you have proof? How much better is infant and maternal mortality in countries with high interventions? I've been digging in the stats for a few years now, and I haven't found an improvement from all this.

Plus, you're doing one of the things the OBs do. You're weighing this solely in terms of lives. It doesn't matter to them how many women they unnecessarily traumatize, or how many infants are subjected to negative impacts on their health (both major and minor), as long as they believe they're saving lives. If they think there's any chance at all that someone will die, then they feel perfectly justified in making that woman's life hell, causing her lifelong physical damage, and hurting the health of her baby. That is also not looking out for someone's best interests. Pregnant women are treated like children who aren't allowed to have any say in their own care.

Quote:

But there are those who choose to believe that allopathic medicine is evil and there's no way to convince them otherwise.
Evil? No. Both arrogant and ignorant? Yes.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fawnanddoe* 
I have done more research having to do with birth than I probably did throughout all of high school! Because of that I can pull up tons of articles, statistics, I can even go through pros and cons of tons of different things and support those pros and cons with percentages.

There can be another problem. I've also done a ton of research, but I can't do any of that. Between fatigue, "placenta brain", and emotional stress, I don't remember most of that stuff, don't have bookmarks, and couldn't begin to cite statistics. I remember my conclusions, but I don't generally have the data to back them up, anymore. That makes it really hard to make valid points to other people, yk?


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## doctorjen (May 29, 2003)

Hmm. This is a fascinating discussion.

I do think there is an entire birth culture that promotes medicalized birth and an OB-in-charge attitude. I think doctors hold a large part of the blame. Doctors want to be in charge and venerated, and encourage women to leave all the decision making to them, and then are unhappy when they are held accountable for outcomes. Doctors have encouraged generations to believe they had more ability to guarantee an outcome than they actually do, and now that society accepts nothing but a perfect outcome, doctors worry more about lawsuits and continue to practice even more conservatively.

I was never taught how to share decision making with my clients in medical school. I did take a class in communication skills that was elective that has been useful in my later career. I also trained in medical ethics (a year long fellowship) - and in modern medical ethics patient wishes pretty much trumps anything else. Understanding that has been very helpful. My medical training, though, didn't ever consider that a "patient" might not want to do what I suggested, or how that should be addressed, or who is truly in charge and should be making decisions anyway.

There is a lot of resistance to giving up control in the medical field. On the flip side, in my experience as a physician, there is a fair amount of resistance among some of my clients to assuming control of their own medical care. I get a lot of "Just do what you think is best." I've had more than one client transfer away from my practice because they didn't feel I was very decisive. I had several very disappointed dads and grandparents in a birthing room upset that I didn't do more during a birth. (I don't do routine exams while mamas are pushing, I don't use drapes, don't encourage moms to take up the stranded beetle position for my comfort, don't do perineal massage, and don't generally touch anything except baby as needed to prevent him/her from falling, I don't suction babies, I'm minimalist in my drying/rubbing, and generally catch and hand the baby over and step back) I feel like I possess a lot of skills that might be needed in an emergency, and I'm always ready to use them, but if I don't need them, I don't need them, and we all know the majority of births would happen fine if I never did anything. Some folks interpret my lack of whistles and bells, though, as that I don't know what I'm doing. They are looking for outer evidence of competence, and me sitting on the floor knitting is not it for some people!

I'll even admit that I'm more cautious/conservative with these clients that don't want to make choices. I don't have any "deal breakers;" I'm willing to work with clients on a variety of issues. I've attended women who chose not to have pretty much any of the "standard of care." But women who say "whatever you think is best" I tend to stick more to that standard of care. Y'all MDC moms need to move here and we can negotiate!


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## cricketsmomma (Jun 14, 2007)

as for the comparison of messed-up OBs and messed up mechanics... true, maybe, but I am NOT a car... my baby is not some hunk of metal. And fwiw I try to do the routine stuff on my car myself. I only take it to a mechanic when it's not working properly - which is when I need an OB, when my body isn't working properly! Otherwise you might end up with one of those mechanics/OBs who MAKE something wrong just to perpetuate their own existence!


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## cricketsmomma (Jun 14, 2007)

oh and I definitely don't think most women are just stupid. I think many women learned from social/family influence to be obedient and to trust "authority," but given the facts I would bet many of those induce-me-at-39-weeks mamas and oh-a-c-section-will-be-so-convenient mamas would have made different plans. But we are taught to be obedient... look at schools, for example. Sit and passively receive information from the authority. I'm a teacher and believe me, just because you're a teacher doesn't mean you're an authority! I would bet it goes the same for OBs.
I've been lucky enough to have had some experiences with docs who have made me skeptical... seeing two docs argue about what meds were appropriate for my dad in ICU with COPD, for example, or hearing docs disagreeing in urgent care when I had an adverse reaction to a flu shot (one doc said to the other that vaccines are totally safe, I couldn't possibly be having a reaction!). Fortunately my skepticism led me to some great midwives and with some luck there will be NO OB involved in my next birth!
I think maybe many mamas just haven't had experiences that have led them to question authority. We can't blame them for trusting, especially when almost every "You and Your Baby" magazine, commercial (Gardisil, for example), even diaper promotional material touts the "wonders" of mainstream modern medicine and how much wisdom your doc has! This is a world where formula samples and fancy Enfamil diaper bags are handed out in most hospitals, but how many mamas are given nursing supplies?
Ok, sorry for the rant, off the soapbox, time to get the toddler into bed!


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## battymama (Jan 15, 2008)

I think a lot of it is lack of education/reasearch on the issue, combined with not wanting to take resposnibility. At least thats the message i get from a lot of them, i think there is a feeling that if something goes wrong then you can blame your ob because you were just doing what you were told. Like the good old "if something gies wrong you will never forgive yourself..." about homebirth. Personally i feel i am resposnsible where ever i am, and not making a choice is a choice (baring where women are forced and coerced i feel that the hcs who do that have a lot of blame and responsibility at their feet) Sorry i read over this and i really dont make sence today, naking and lack of sleep do not mix


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## littlebb (Apr 15, 2009)

It's really nice seeing this debate take place on this board because I think women are starting to take more control of their pregnancy and birth decisions. I do think we as a culture have slipped into something quite dangerous where birth is concerned, and that is becoming complacent and not questioning or being afraid to question our caregiver's actions.

There are so many good points I agree with on this thread that I don't want to repeat them. The main point, besides this having become an issue of culture, is that somewhere along the lines we've let OBs and hospitals take over the entire birthing process. I'm sure their intentions are good, but as someone pointed out, one, OBs are trained SURGEONS. Someone referenced the Monty Python skit of "you're not qualified" and that is DH's and I favorite clip to send to people. Two, birth is a completely natural process that was once a part of everyday life and now is treated as a disease or a handicap. It seems a high number of hospital births that should be routine (and every birth is unique) easily turn into a crisis or emergency (i.e. as someone mentioned, when you go beyond 40 weeks).

When I was first pregnant, DH and I knew we wanted a fully natural birth. We met with a number of different OBs and midwives associated with OBs, and all of them seemed appalled that I wanted to rule out a scheduled c-section and epidurals and other drugs. No interventions unless my life or that of my baby TRULY depended on it. Even when my co-workers found out I was going for a drug-free birth, women said things to me like, "You HAVE to have an epidural!" as if it were some type of rule and my vagina would close up if I didn't.

All the reasons women have stated on this thread is what originally drove DH and I (and a growing number of other couples) into deciding on a homebirth. My stress levels decreased so much after we met our HB midwife and started prenatal care with her and planning for our HB. Obviously the reasons we stick with HB and will in the future has grown, but originally, it was the level of 'forced' care we saw in OB's offices and we knew that the chances of having a birth we were comfortable with in a hospital was not in our hands.

Whatever birth women choose for themselves, I am happy that more and more women are examining the level of care they are receiving and not just taking being a silent or reluctant participant.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

Not having read the whole thread....

Even if one is well-researched and knows what they want and why, it can be incredibly difficult to stand up to someone with degrees and years and years of education and the medical culture (full of other people with degrees) backing them.

If my husband (nurse) and parents (doctors) hadn't been there to cheer me on with my last two and if the midwives hadn't done their best to be reassuring and confident in me, I probably would have meekly said "Sure, take me to the OR now. I want what's best for my baby, even if that means a c-section at 40 weeks because he's "too big"."







: My first baby saved me from induction at 40 weeks by arriving 3 days early. I was ready and willing to go along with the induction plan because I didn't know any better and was willing to accept the doctor's word that it was necessary.

The doctors who backed up our midwives the last two times were just plain awful. Both pulled the dead baby card on me.







Both made me feel like a horrible, selfish person for wanting to do things naturally. The midwives backed me up as much as they could, but had to shift my care to the hosp at 42 weeks.

And then there were all the people around me who thought I was completely nuts. "Why don't you go to such-and-such hospital and just have an epidural and get induced. I did that and we played music and lit candles and it was so peaceful!"

It was also hard to say no to nsts and u/s. Again because wouldn't I be a horrible mother if something went wrong and I'd refused so nobody knew about it? And once you get into the tests, there's always a bazillion things they can find to make them worried and get them pushing induction.

When you don't have information, or when you have information but *no* support, how can you reject something touted as necessary to save your baby's life?? YK? It's not that easy.







I have so many aquaintances who are strong, assertive, intelligent, confident women, but who's legs turned to jello when their doctor said "We're going to do this- and this and this, otherwise your baby will DIE or be DAMAGED".


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## farmers_wife (Apr 16, 2009)

May I jump in? I have not read the entire thread but I want to give an opinion if I may. I am currently over 30 weeks pregnant with triplets. I have given birth completely naturally twice (two toddlers at home 11 months apart!!!) and I have had the same OB. He is a private physician and he is absolutely wonderful. He encourages natural birth, gives instruction (correct instruction!) on breast feeding, no formula handouts, and he let me deliver standing both times without IVs. I kid him saying he is a midwife in disguise! But when I found out I was having triplets I wanted to try a vaginal birth. I approached him with research and a tearfully asked him "Can't I try? Don't these babies deserve a chance of a vaginal birth?" He replied "I will do my best." We have kept a close eye on the position of the babies and he is well versed in breech and multiple deliveries and so far he has said ok to a vaginal birth for me but I must deliver in the OR in case anything starts to go wrong. I have so much faith in him and trust him and he not just a doctor, but someone I look to for intelligent up to date information on childbirth. I know not all Obs are like this, but he is one who IS very much natural minded and actually ASKS for a birth plan. I guess what I am trying to say not all Obs are evil surgeons waiting to make their next cut on a helpless woman. Just my thoughts on the subject...


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## littlebb (Apr 15, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *farmers_wife* 
May I jump in? I have not read the entire thread but I want to give an opinion if I may. I am currently over 30 weeks pregnant with triplets. I have given birth completely naturally twice (two toddlers at home 11 months apart!!!) and I have had the same OB. He is a private physician and he is absolutely wonderful. He encourages natural birth, gives instruction (correct instruction!) on breast feeding, no formula handouts, and he let me deliver standing both times without IVs. I kid him saying he is a midwife in disguise! But when I found out I was having triplets I wanted to try a vaginal birth. I approached him with research and a tearfully asked him "Can't I try? Don't these babies deserve a chance of a vaginal birth?" He replied "I will do my best." We have kept a close eye on the position of the babies and he is well versed in breech and multiple deliveries and so far he has said ok to a vaginal birth for me but I must deliver in the OR in case anything starts to go wrong. I have so much faith in him and trust him and he not just a doctor, but someone I look to for intelligent up to date information on childbirth. I know not all Obs are like this, but he is one who IS very much natural minded and actually ASKS for a birth plan. I guess what I am trying to say not all Obs are evil surgeons waiting to make their next cut on a helpless woman. Just my thoughts on the subject...

I think that's wonderful and how I wish there were more OBs like him. I think he IS a midwife in disguise! I've read a lot of stories on different boards about the diamond-in-the-rough OB like yours but they are so few and far between. I like hearing these stories - it restores hope that maybe we can turn this bus around someday and put the focus back on what's good for the mother and good for the baby, not what's good for the doctor, hospital, insurance company or comfort of anyone BUT the mother and baby. And I'm so happy to hear you are really trying for a vaginal birth with triplets. I would do the same if I were in your shoes. I'll keep you in my thoughts and keep my fingers crossed for you.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
I disagree. I think the % of bad American OBs is much higher than the % of bad American mechanics. I say this because of our culture:

birth is seen as a medical event (DOC IN CHARGE - not woman - & her emotional state of mine is irrelevant)
OBs don't practice evidence-based care & don't seem to think they need to
The obstetric "Omerta" (OBs can do no wrong, view protecting the interests of OBs as far more important than the actual health & safety of women & babies, and won't speak out against one another, even if they recognize malpractice) (See "Born in the USA" by Dr. Marsden Wagner)
I think American obstetrics is in a sorry state. MUCH WORSE than american car mechanics.

Honestly I think it's the whole American healthcare system that is in a sorry state.

I was just using it as an analogy. I still believe to an extent that Dr are plainly "mechanics", they are trained professionals(or someone who can pass tests well). There are good Dr and there are bad Drs just like anything. Personally I see it like that.

For me I have not encountered these types of Drs(maybe because I go to women Drs), I live in an area that is very progressive when it comes to birthing. The hospital is "baby-friendly" and has state recognition for promoting rooming in, waterbirthing, no nursery, breastfeeding, etc....My current Dr is a pediatrician who also delivers babies, she is completely amazing and has been nothing but wonderful. I don't feel powerless or that she is making all the decisions.


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## farmers_wife (Apr 16, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
Honestly I think it's the whole American healthcare system that is in a sorry state.

I was just using it as an analogy. I still believe to an extent that Dr are plainly "mechanics", they are trained professionals(or someone who can pass tests well). There are good Dr and there are bad Drs just like anything. Personally I see it like that.

For me I have not encountered these types of Drs(maybe because I go to women Drs), I live in an area that is very progressive when it comes to birthing. The hospital is "baby-friendly" and has state recognition for promoting rooming in, waterbirthing, no nursery, breastfeeding, etc....My current Dr is a pediatrician who also delivers babies, she is completely amazing and has been nothing but wonderful. I don't feel powerless or that she is making all the decisions.

This is me too. My Ob is a man (I feel uncomfortable with women down there for some odd reason) and he is always asking questions to me and getting MY consent before doing anything medical. Not that I am defending ALL Obs here, but there are good ones out there, just like there are BAD midwives (trust me I have encountered a few!) which is why I went to an Ob.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *farmers_wife* 
This is me too. My Ob is a man (I feel uncomfortable with women down there for some odd reason) and he is always asking questions to me and getting MY consent before doing anything medical. Not that I am defending ALL Obs here, but there are good ones out there, just like there are BAD midwives (trust me I have encountered a few!) which is why I went to an Ob.

See you have a good experience with a male Ob, I have female Drs who have both had children and have experiences with birthing. I also had a bad experience with our local midwife who completely insulted me after finding out about my c/s, she told plainly that the ONLY reason I had a c/s was just because I was scared







:, not knowing _any_ of the serious complications that arose during DD's birth. I've tried to forgive her for her rude demeanor, but alas, I would never go to her because of making a statement that she knew nothing about.

My current Dr was the one who attended DD's birth because my Dr was out of town on family business. I met her in labor and fell in love with her, plus she knows what happened with DD's and my complications. She is wonderful and has been willing to see me at a moments notice. A few weeks ago I had a bleeding episode and she instantly had me in a u/s to see what was going on, plus with her being a ped it is just awesome. I think much of it has to do with living in a small area, you do bad here no one will come to you ever again. I think many women who are in larger areas run into terrible OB's because they are just another number.


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## Mamatoabunch (Sep 23, 2007)

It frustrates me to no end. I have been pregnant and birthing for 15 years. It is getting worse IMO.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
I think much of it has to do with living in a small area, you do bad here no one will come to you ever again. I think many women who are in larger areas run into terrible OB's because they are just another number.

Hm, interesting theory.

The strange thing about OBs though is that they can be *AWFUL... and women being treated by them don't know it!!*







Here's my essay on that concept:

Does the average American woman _know_ how downright idiotic it is to be told she's not allowed to drink or eat & must have IV fluids in every case? Dose the average American woman know how idiotic it is to be tied to cEFM for a low-risk birth? How idiotic it is to ... therefore... then have her movement restricted & not be able to get in a bath to cope with normal labor pains?

Does she know the risks of the epidural? Or does she think "Natural birth makes as much sense as natural dentistry, & no one gives you a medal for not taking the drugs." Does she know the risks of induction? pitocin? Does she know that even if her baby really is 9# (and estimates can be off by 2# or more), induction doesn't improve the outcomes anyway. Does she know lithotomy is the WORST postion to birth in - inhibiting progress in getting baby out on top of increasing the risk of tearing? Or has it never occured to her that you can birth in other positions?

Does she know how bad episiotomy (without real cause) is? If she read "The Girlfriend's Guide to Pregnancy" she might thing it's a normal procedure and necessary in order to "save" her from worse tearing.














(The book says, "If you're a first time mom, you'll probably be given an episiotomy." (as if you have no choice in the matter!) Even in the 2nd edition published in like 2007.

Finally.... does she know that odds are good that her C-section was unnecessary....

Or does she, instead, believe that this is just the way birth is. Centuries ago, women used to die in childbirth & now that doesn't happen (wrong!) We need the medical intervention to save Mamas & babies. Out-of-hospital birth is DANGEROUS, reckless, & idiotic. My CS _saved_ my baby.... etc. Yes, birth was unpleasant, but so is having your tonsils removed. But it's an unpleasant means to a good end... It's a medical procedure that medical professionals are in-charge of & something that _happens to mama_ not somethign she does, etc.

Because of the way our culture views birth, it's just all too easy for OBs to be terrible - dictatorial, non-evidence based, non-mother friendly, causing iatrogenic problems that they then "rescue" with CS or vacuum, etc., & the woman just has no idea about the real truth. She may think the OB was great because s/he "saved" the baby with a CS.


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## farmers_wife (Apr 16, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
I think much of it has to do with living in a small area, you do bad here no one will come to you ever again. I think many women who are in larger areas run into terrible OB's because they are just another number.

I live in a VERY VERY rural area, population 15 (yes 15, soon to be 18 when the triplets are born though







: ) and my Ob is in a larger city 40 minutes away. I agree, if someone is treated wrong the WHOLE area knows about it, it was like that with a dentist who used to practice nearby. He was horrible and so horrible he left town because of lack of business


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

I feel that this is a societal problem, not limited to the birthing of children. We, as a society, do not take responsibility for our actions or that which goes on in our lives. The modern medical system & the system w/in which many mothers have their children is a perfect set-up for this mentality. You do not need to take responsibility, and are in fact, a much better patient & fit into the system much more easily if you allow others to take the responsibility.

Now, we all know that this means there are much worse outcomes for both mothers & babies, short & long term. Otherwise, we wouldn't be spending the most money of maternity care in the entire world & yet be way down the list (can't remember the numbers, but I'm thinking it's 28th or something for maternal or infant morbidity), compared to the rest of world in infant & maternal morbidity & mortality. It just isn't logical to think that w/ all the money spent on technological birth that it is doing anyone any good. If it were, the numbers would speak to that.

Sus


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## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

I want to thank everybody who has posted to challenge the "blame-the-victim" (mother) approach to this topic. It wasn't long ago that most of us were in their shoes, trusting our doctors to do what is best for us.

Call me a Pollyanna, but I don't spend my life questioning everybody to find nefarious motives. I trust most mechanics, police officers, plumbers, and hair stylists to use their training and expertise wisely in order to serve me in the best possible manner. Sure, there are bad apples, and there's a time to raise an eyebrow, but it would never occur to me to stay on my defenses when interacting with every last one of them.

I used to view physicians, especially OBs, in the same manner. Yet extensive research, reading, and MDC discussions have exposed to me the seamy side of the profession. I do feel "on guard" in the presence of any OB. I wish that I could take their words at face value. But now I question all of it. I delay medical decision-making until I do my own research on the matter and glean different opinions. This is definitely a good habit to have, but it's no fun lacking a trusting relationship with my care providers.

In a nutshell, I'm saying that I empathize with the women who "let their OBs play god." It wasn't long ago that I was one of them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *doctorjen* 
There is a lot of resistance to giving up control in the medical field. On the flip side, in my experience as a physician, there is a fair amount of resistance among some of my clients to assuming control of their own medical care.

I found a wealth of interesting information in your post, especially about the passivity of some of your clients. But it's your use of the word "clients" that deserves praise. _Especially_ when I'm pregnant, it is inappropriate to call me a "patient." The word implies not only a paternalistic top-down relationship, but also that I'm sick...that my pregnancy is a disease. Calling me a "client" not only puts me and my doctor in a more collaborative relationship, but it reminds me that as a health care _consumer_, I'm ultimately obligated to take responsibility for my own health. I wish that more doctors--particularly OBs--saw it this way. Thank you.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

Well said Turquesa-for me I was very educated with my birth experience of my DD, and yes it did end up in a true emergency c/s. The hospital where we live has a low c/s rate(I think 20%) and most babies are no/low intervention births. With me I labored for 30 hours and after the 3 pushing with pretty much zero descent it was obvious that something was not quite right, I was able to move positions and DD was just stuck in the left side of my pelvis and wouldn't budge. Then my uterus pretty much gave out and stopped effectively contracting, which made it very obvious(from my standpoint) that something was wrong. I just felt things change.

Now there is another hospital 45 minutes away from me where the c/s rate is *50%*. The head OB there is an a$$, and he does treat most women like they are just stupid and freaked out. I know because I have heard the stories from my SILs, friends and people who work there. Personally I would never step in his office. He is the "high-risk" OB in this county, and by golly if I was deemed high risk, you wouldn't see me there. My friend on the other hand, well she's going back to that same hospital even after her son almost died(he was airlifted out of there) because she is so trusting of the medical system. I always am trying to get her to take charge of her birth choices, but she just doesn't. I guess I just have to respect her decisions even if they are based purely on convenience sake, which seems completely silly to me, but hey it's not _my_ choice to make.

Right now I am faced with another c/s due to my weird T-incision, it was not done out of malice, it was done out of the fact that DD had descended far enough to be so wedged that this incision had to be made. The attending surgeon told me that most women can(and should) have vbac's after a c/s, but I am just a terrible candidate for one. Plus even if I wanted to try, my DH would have no part in it, there would be zero support because he was taken aside and told the gravity of the situation. He would have never agreed for us to have another child, and I have to also respect that fact-he is the father of this baby. I know the risks of the c/s, what I do not know are the risks associated with a T cut, there is _very_ little info on that and that unknown is a bit scary to me. I am getting my choice though with my provider, and she will be attending the birth of our child with her colleague to preform the surgery. I feel great about all of this.

I do believe many women do need to become more informed about the entire birth experience, my only regret was not getting a waterbirth. What sucks is the normally used resources, like What to Expect(barf) and many other are just piles of garbage that many women are spoon fed. I realized when I was pg with DD that much of what I believe and felt was right are just not the norm.


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## cricketsmomma (Jun 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
What sucks is the normally used resources, like What to Expect(barf) and many other are just piles of garbage that many women are spoon fed. I realized when I was pg with DD that much of what I believe and felt was right are just not the norm.









:

I burned my set of What to Expect books - I couldn't even donate them in good conscious because they were so misleading.


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## JennTheMomma (Jun 19, 2008)

I think its a mixture of not being informed and the pressure from everything and everyone. Some people just don't care though. They just want pregnancy over with, and don't care how labor goes, just as long as there is a baby at the end. I've met many women like that. I had an OB, he wasn't God, but he was a damn good man and Doctor. Luckily he believes in education and we had good appointments where he made sure I asked questions and we talked about everything.


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## minkajane (Jun 5, 2005)

I've noticed from a lot of the people in my hometown (smalltown WV) that people don't even consider doing things other than "the way we do things." You (usually) graduate high school, marry your high school sweetheart, get pregnant, go to the hospital, get your epidural, do whatever the doctor tells you (because doctors have been to college and know what they're talking about), have the baby, give it a bottle, send it off to be circumcised, then raise it on McDonald's, soda, and Hamburger Helper.

*Disclaimer* This is not an insult to people from WV, people who trust their doctors, bottle-feeders, etc. This has been my personal experience with everyone I know from high school. It has been the same pattern every. single. time. People do what they know. Babies get bottles, sleep in cribs, and cry themselves to sleep. Spanking is the only way to discipline a kid. Soda is what you drink. McDonald's is a special night out. Foreskins don't exist. Etc. It just never crosses their mind that their even IS another way, much less that it might be better. It may have something to do with the isolation of the state, but I've seen it other places than my hometown. When questioned as to their reasons why they do something (like bottle-feeding) they get this confused look on their faces and say "That's what everybody I know does" or "That's how I was raised" or "What else would I do?" They don't even realize that other ways are possible.


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## rainashine (Oct 29, 2008)

I think too it's hard to change your ideas when to do so means acknowledging that your previous beliefs and/or the way your parents believe or raised you is wrong.

It took me a long time to get my head around not spanking because I was raised in a home that not only spanked but believed that to not spank was to go against the way God wanted children raised. I am still a Christian and, thankfully, have found a different way. But in doing that, I've had to admit that the way my parents did things is not right.

I think birth is similar. It's a total counter cultur paradigm shift for women to go from having trusted the medical professsion their whole life to discovering that doctors don't always (or even mostly) know best in the case of birth. Frankly, 9 months is not enough time to accomplish this kind of shift in thinking and then most women don't even get an inkling that there might be a problem until they are actually in labor. Then it's just simply easier to bury their head in the sand because there isn't a thing they can do about it then and the alternative is to be horrified, traumatized, and openly miserable. Unfortunatley, I think many of those women are still all of those things but can't opening acknowledge why and are diagnosed ppd by the same doctors that caused the problems.


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## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

I searched really hard to find a high risk OB that I trust completely. That doesn't mean that I don't do research on my own, but I feel since he has spent years and years dealing with high risk pregnancies, he knows a little more about it then I do. During my last pregnancy when I had people IRL question why I was having weekly NST, I always said that it was because my dr recommended it. So it may appear that I'm not informed and I mindlessly do what my dr said, but for me, a key part of my reasearch was finding a good OB that I trusted. I don't think he is a god and I'm sure he makes mistakes, but I believe that when he made recommendations, he was looking out for my and my baby's best interest. If I didn't trust him to give good advice, I would go find a new OB.


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## farmers_wife (Apr 16, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *minkajane* 
It has been the same pattern every. single. time. People do what they know. Babies get bottles, sleep in cribs, and cry themselves to sleep. Spanking is the only way to discipline a kid. Soda is what you drink. McDonald's is a special night out. Foreskins don't exist. Etc. It just never crosses their mind that their even IS another way, much less that it might be better. It may have something to do with the isolation of the state, but I've seen it other places than my hometown. When questioned as to their reasons why they do something (like bottle-feeding) they get this confused look on their faces and say "That's what everybody I know does" or "That's how I was raised" or "What else would I do?" They don't even realize that other ways are possible.

THIS IS WHAT I AM DEALING WITH RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am 32 weeks pregnant with triplets and my Ob is on board for a vaginal delivery (so far anyway!!!!) and everyone in my town is balking at me and calling me a hazard to their health, saying I am just putting myself first instead of their needs because I am not automatically going for a section. I have tried for years to get a LLL going here and no one wants to, I nurse in public, cloth diaper and tandemed nursed my toddlers (11 months apart) and I get called literally in public "hippie mom" "weirdo" "sicko" the names go on and on and it is worse now because I am having three more. I had a lady the other day say "Why are you even walking around if you are that close to delivery?" HUH? How the hell does she know how close I am to delivering those babies?







: (Sorry for the rant, must be the pregnancy hormones!) Yes though, my Ob and I have had this conversation before and he totally gets it, his wife is JUST like me so we can understand each other completely. Just sucks living in a backassward part of the world







:


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## farmers_wife (Apr 16, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *felix23* 
I searched really hard to find a high risk OB that I trust completely. That doesn't mean that I don't do research on my own, but I feel since he has spent years and years dealing with high risk pregnancies, he knows a little more about it then I do. During my last pregnancy when I had people IRL question why I was having weekly NST, I always said that it was because my dr recommended it. So it may appear that I'm not informed and I mindlessly do what my dr said, but for me, a key part of my reasearch was finding a good OB that I trusted. I don't think he is a god and I'm sure he makes mistakes, but I believe that when he made recommendations, he was looking out for my and my baby's best interest. If I didn't trust him to give good advice, I would go find a new OB.

Yes to this. Exactly how I feel about my Ob!


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## fawnanddoe (Mar 3, 2009)

When it comes down to it I just don't understand why women don't ask questions more. Really. I mean, yes, I know that they are the experts and what not, but why *wouldn't* you question anything? Why would you let them just do "whatever" because they recommend it or think it's best?
Just because they have a degree and some initials after their name does not mean that they necessarily know what is best for YOU, sure, they probably have a bunch of suggestions and one or more of those might be right for you personally, but why not ask?


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## crunchybelle (Mar 18, 2008)

I feel kinda bad reading a lot of these posts. As someone who went to an ob with my first pregnancy, was induced, had the epi and of course the section. At the time I just DIDN'T KNOW I HAD OPTIONS. Apparently it sounds stupid to a lot of people here, but that is the culture we live in. I think most first time moms don't even realize that there is something better, and why would they? Everyone they know goes to an ob and a hospital to birth.
I know better now, but if I had had a decent vaginal birth at the hospital, I may have never questioned it.

Also, obs don't present things as options. Its just "we're going to do this because blah blah blah." And as a not very assertive person, (back then), it is next to impossible to say no. Not to mention they use the "your baby could die if you don't do this" crap. Its very hard to say no to that when you are in that vulnerable position and have never been taught to know better.

So anyway, my point is just don't be too hard on women. It is more the culture and society that we live in than individual choices. Now i just feel really bad for those women going in to get induced for no reason.


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## saintmom (Aug 19, 2003)

I wonder if a lot of it stems from the "hospital is safer" mindset.How many T.V. commercials have we all seen that say "doctors recommend" There really is some subtle programming at work from the time we're small.Women are supposed to be nice, get along.I think that it's even a check box on elementary report cards.

I never liked birthing in hospitals. it wasn't terrible, it just seemed like the worst time to be around strangers.I felt like I was supposed to be nice, compliant, friendly......during labor? Be serious.HB beats out hospital birth IMHO every time.

I tell my daughter to give birth the way she wants to, raise hell,question, question and question some more.They both couch all their responses in the language of fear; "what if something is wrong?" I keep telling them why should anything be wrong? That's what gets me, the fear.It's the most wonderful time in your life, the greatest journey, why approach it in fear waiting for big daddy doctor to make it all right? It blows my mind to hear it.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchybelle* 
I feel kinda bad reading a lot of these posts. As someone who went to an ob with my first pregnancy, was induced, had the epi and of course the section. At the time I just DIDN'T KNOW I HAD OPTIONS. Apparently it sounds stupid to a lot of people here, but that is the culture we live in. I think most first time moms don't even realize that there is something better, and why would they? Everyone they know goes to an ob and a hospital to birth.
I know better now, but if I had had a decent vaginal birth at the hospital, I may have never questioned it.

Also, obs don't present things as options. Its just "we're going to do this because blah blah blah." And as a not very assertive person, (back then), it is next to impossible to say no. Not to mention they use the "your baby could die if you don't do this" crap. Its very hard to say no to that when you are in that vulnerable position and have never been taught to know better.

So anyway, my point is just don't be too hard on women. It is more the culture and society that we live in than individual choices. Now i just feel really bad for those women going in to get induced for no reason.

As a first time mom myself who originally started out using an OB a friend suggested I don't really know how I so completely changed my perspective within the scope of a few weeks. I do know that nobody told me that things could be done a different way, so I completely understand the "I had no idea" concept...

That doesn't excuse women from doing their own digging though. At some point, I think during an appointment with my OB I was trying to question her about the point of a blood test she wanted me to do and she was getting annoyed with me for even asking questions. This is when something in my brain clicked and I realized it felt wrong. Why was she annoyed? Why shouldn't I ask questions.

I went to the book store and did the best thing I could have ever done. I looked at all the birthing books, not just what to expect etc. I picked up Ina's guide to childbirth and it completely changed me and the way I view my body, pregnancy and birth. Even though I didn't know a thing in the beginning I realized it was important to be able to understand what medical professionals around me were talking about...Don't we do research when we buy a new car? Or any major purchase? Why should it be any different with birth, just because a doctor tells us? I think not...

I don't entirely blame the woman but I guess I will always wonder why a woman wouldn't want to know as much as she can about how her body is going to perform this amazing feat!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainashine* 
...the alternative is to be horrified, traumatized, and openly miserable. Unfortunatley, I think many of those women are still all of those things but can't opening acknowledge why and are diagnosed ppd by the same doctors that caused the problems.









:
There was interesting presentation about maternal mental health at the ICAN conference. It was over an hour long, but the most interesting thing I took away from it is that people who are researching post-partum maternal mental health (and actually _talking_ to moms, not just working from a checklist) are reaching the conclusion that PPD is massively over-diagnosed...and PTSD is massively _under_-diagnosed. PPD is generally considered to be the most significant mental health challenge faced by new moms, but evidence is starting to suggest that many, many cases of "PPD" are actually PTSD...and they're not being treated properly. And, really - how hard is it going to be to get obstetrical professionals to even listen to this, when the evidence is also starting to mount that the way women are treated in labour (or even before labour, if they're pushed into inductions or surgery they don't want) is the single biggest contributing factor?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *saintmom* 
I wonder if a lot of it stems from the "hospital is safer" mindset.How many T.V. commercials have we all seen that say "doctors recommend" There really is some subtle programming at work from the time we're small.

Yes. I've noticed this since ds1 started school (even before). It's absolutely necessary to take your baby in for all their well-baby checkups. People act like I'm endangering my baby's health by refusing to have a nurse come to my house to check on him (weighing, basically - which is going to happen at the doctor's office in a couple days, anyway). DS1's school once sent a notice home, talking about how the school nurse had taught them how to wash their hands. Every freaking medication in the store has the disclaimer about "consult your physician" (liability reasons, obviously). We're steadily hammered with the idea that, when it comes to our health, we should do _anything_ without checking with a doctor first. I have no doubt that this carries over into prenatal care, especially with the "pregnancy as pathology" mindset that exists all over our culture.

farmers_wife, this

Quote:

I had a lady the other day say "Why are you even walking around if you are that close to delivery?" HUH? How the hell does she know how close I am to delivering those babies?
...kind of makes me laugh, but not quite. I flew down to Atlanta a few weeks ago, at 7 months pregnant. I must have had 10 people ask me if I was "allowed" to fly. They were all strangers, and nice enough about it, but almost all of them were very reassured when they realized I was only 7 months. If you don't know how far along I am, why the heck are you expressing all this shock that I'm on a plane??

Quote:

I never liked birthing in hospitals. it wasn't terrible, it just seemed like the worst time to be around strangers.I felt like I was supposed to be nice, compliant, friendly......during labor? Be serious.HB beats out hospital birth IMHO every time.
I've never given birth at home, and I never will now. But, I'll remember my hours of labouring at home, with both ds1 and Aaron, in a very positive way for the rest of my life. It's definitely a much better experience. I'd honestly trade 15 minutes of labour in the hospital for 24 hours of labour at home.


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## fawnanddoe (Mar 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ldavis24* 
..Even though I didn't know a thing in the beginning I realized it was important to be able to understand what medical professionals around me were talking about...Don't we do research when we buy a new car? Or any major purchase? Why should it be any different with birth, just because a doctor tells us? I think not...

I don't entirely blame the woman but I guess I will always wonder why a woman wouldn't want to know as much as she can about how her body is going to perform this amazing feat!


This. Exactly.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ldavis24* 
I don't entirely blame the woman but I guess I will always wonder why a woman wouldn't want to know as much as she can about how her body is going to perform this amazing feat!

Okay. I don't really have an issue with where I was with my first, because I wouldn't have done anything differently, looking back. A midwife would have been great...if I'd known they existed, and if they were legal at the time. Since I didn't have the internet, I didn't know. I was seeing a GP, not an OB. (I think this is more common in Canada than the US - your system seems much more specialist driven than ours is, from what I can tell online.)

As for the not wanting to know as much as she can...I did. But, how do you know that you don't know something? We have a free publication here in BC, called "Baby's Best Chance". I had it pretty much memorized. It covered what nutrients I needed, all kinds of info on labour, labour management techniques (mostly breathing and different positions), breastfeeding FAQs and tips, etc. etc. etc. It covered cesareans and the reasons they might be necessary. So - as a first time mom (whose baby was in a great vertex position for the last several weeks of my pregnancy, anyway), what would have tipped me off that it's really _not_ necessary to deliver a breech baby by cesarean? My baby wasn't breech until labour, anyway - but if it had been, how would I have known that surgery wasn't necessary? All the information I had said that it was. All the people I knew agreed that cesarean was necessary for breech.

People can want to know things, and try to find things out...and still have no idea how much they don't know. You picked up Ina May's Guide...what if you hadn't? What if it hadn't been in the store? What if you lived somewhere that you couldn't get to the bookstore? What if your library didn't have it, and you couldn't afford to buy books (believe me, the money for books wasn't in my budget back then)?

Sure - a lot of women "just" trust their doctors (for a lot of reasons). A lot of women are already terrified of labour, from having heard their own female relatives and their endless "I almost died, but the doctor saved me" or even "you almost died, but the doctor did an episiotomy just in time" - or whatever - stories their whole lives. But, many women think they're well enough informed, even when they're not. How can you possibly want to find out something, when you think you already know it?

(Mind you, all the research in the world on when a cesarean is required, or how to birth a breech baby, wouldn't have helped me...because they did it even after I said "no", anyway.)


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Storm Bride you did all your research though! You may not have been able to find the information that would have helped you most but not being familiar with Canada's model of care I wouldn't know if the information you were given or had access to is the norm up there?

My point was that I feel like here in the US many women don't do a lot more than read their copy of what to expect once and assume the doctor will handle the rest.

Had I not found Ina May's book I would have continued doing my online research partly because I really just wanted to know what terms meant and if a procedure was going to be needed what it entailed etc.

The woman who suggested my original OB before I switched to my MW told me her birth story and at the time it didn't seem out of the norm but now it makes me sad...
She went to the hospital, labor "wasn't progressing", she got started on pit, (already had the IV), needed the epi because of the pit. pushed on her back, had an episiotomy and her baby was born...She looked at me like I had 2 heads when I said I didn't know what way I was going to be pushing because I had the opportunity to do it any way I wanted and I wanted to prevent a tear! She said that the episotomy prevents the tear!







:

It really isn't about just trusting your doctor with me. Like I said before I just find it amazing that some women don't seem interested in how their body is able to do this. I mean mechanically, not how to labor and breast feed and all that but literally how your body grows/pushes out a baby. If you understand that part it makes it so much easier to understand how different ways to labor can affect you and your baby!


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## rainashine (Oct 29, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 







:
There was interesting presentation about maternal mental health at the ICAN conference. It was over an hour long, but the most interesting thing I took away from it is that people who are researching post-partum maternal mental health (and actually _talking_ to moms, not just working from a checklist) are reaching the conclusion that PPD is massively over-diagnosed...and PTSD is massively _under_-diagnosed. PPD is generally considered to be the most significant mental health challenge faced by new moms, but evidence is starting to suggest that many, many cases of "PPD" are actually PTSD...and they're not being treated properly. And, really - how hard is it going to be to get obstetrical professionals to even listen to this, when the evidence is also starting to mount that the way women are treated in labour (or even before labour, if they're pushed into inductions or surgery they don't want) is the single biggest contributing factor?

This is what I was hoping the Birth Survey would be able to accomplish...really allowing women's experiences to be seen. So far I've been disappointed. Even when I took the survey I didn't feel it asked quite the right questions. And now that I've seen the results...I still feel that way. I was really excited to see the results and it just seems to be one more thing to show that the majority of women were delighted with their medicalized birth and those of us that weren't are the crazy minority.

As for the rest of the thread, I'm still frustrated. In so many ways I see this compared to date rape. Girl moves to a new town , goes on a date, gets raped. Everyone says some version of, 'well, you shoulda known better."







I doubt any woman on this board would blame a girl in that situation. We all can sit here and place blame on moms for not doing research every day but we're doing that from the perspective of knowledge. Other people in that community may have known that that guy she went out with had a bad reputation but she didn't and there was no way for her to protect herself.


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## monkaha (Jan 22, 2004)

Is the Birth Survey being presented on more mainstream parenting boards too? I see it mentioned all the time here; what about everywhere else? (I tend to hide here and a local AP board-other parenting boards just frustrate me) Like the PP, there's only a couple of responses for the OB that delivered my son, and I know they're a very busy group.


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## AutumnAir (Jun 10, 2008)

I tend to think that at least a portion of this issue is to do with the modern 'blame culture'. You know, where bad things don't just happen any more - now they have to be *somebody's* fault. The culture where people will sue someone else because they slipped in their driveway. What would have been considered an unfortunate accident now involves blame and liability.

OBs tend to invite this by pretty much 'promising' a good outcome, especially when they 'pull the dead baby card' to bully mothers into doing what's convenient for them. By saying something like "Your baby will die if you don't do what I tell you to do" you are implying that by doing what you are told there is a guaranteed positive outcome.

And nobody wants to be blamed for a bad outcome. OBs at least have huge malpractice insurance and emotional detachment. Mothers-to-be feel that by going to the hospital they absolve themselves of all responsibility if something goes wrong, as there's a convenient OB to blame, who's already asked for the blame by promising them a good outcome if they just listen to him/her.

Mothers who chose less 'conventional' births are made to feel in no uncertain terms that if anything goes wrong *they* will be blamed for it. When I told family and friends of my homebirth plans I was asked a number of times "But what if something goes wrong? How will you live with yourself?" First, this makes it clear that there is blame to be apportioned if something does go wrong, and secondly that it's clearly my fault if it does.

Hospital birthing mamas are never (or at least very very rarely) asked how they will live with themselves if something goes wrong in the hospital - which is *at least* as likely as something going wrong at home (and taking into account morbidity as well as mortality it's actually more likely that something bad will happen in the hospital).

Now, that's not to say that I don't think we should all take responsibility for our birthing choices, but there is a *huge* difference between responsibility and blame. No mother should have to even contemplate not only something awful happening to their baby but also being blamed for it by many/most/all of the people they know. And that is exactly what women who question the medical model are facing.


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## Comtessa (Sep 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
A lot of women are already terrified of labour, from having heard their own female relatives and their endless "I almost died, but the doctor saved me" or even "you almost died, but the doctor did an episiotomy just in time" - or whatever - stories their whole lives. But, many women think they're well enough informed, even when they're not. How can you possibly want to find out something, when you think you already know it?

This. Absolutely. I think lots of women don't feel the need to do any research besides what all of their family and friends say, and unfortunately it so often looks and sounds _exactly_ like this. I had the good fortune of reading Ina May many years ago (I was lucky enough to _work_ in a bookstore as a teenager), so I knew there had to be more to the story than what everyone else said.

For months after we announced my pregnancy, my mother repeated the details of _my_ birth (in increasingly hysterical tones) in an attempt to convince me not to have a home birth. Unfortunately, the story worked in exactly the _opposite_ way she intended:

"They waited as LONG AS THEY COULD for labor to start after my water broke with you [one day].
They HAD to start Pitocin because you were clearly at risk [though there were no signs of infection].
The Pit didn't work because you were floating too high and wouldn't descend [because I wasn't ready to be born yet, obviously... not to mention the fact that she was forced to labor on her back once she had the Pit].
They waited as LONG AS THEY COULD to let me start laboring [a few hours].
Then they HAD to do a C-section because you were IN DISTRESS [not a surprise, after all that Pitocin, laboring on her back, etc.]."

It just makes me shake my head in exasperation. Of course birth doesn't always turn out the way we'd hope... but giving the doctors _carte blanche_ to intervene in birth is not the solution. Mom's moral of the story is, "doctors saved my life _and yours_, and it is irresponsible of you to refuse their help by planning a home birth." My moral of the same story, on the other hand, is, "Look how awful birth can be once you're put on the 'active medical management' track."


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## GoldmanBaby09 (Apr 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
(Mind you, all the research in the world on when a cesarean is required, or how to birth a breech baby, wouldn't have helped me...because they did it even after I said "no", anyway.)

This is a HUGE part of what is wrong with our medically managed system in the first place!! Not only do they not treat you as an individual, they don't even treat you as human by doing things to you without your consent or your knowledge. Not only did you not consent, you clearly said no and they did it anyway. I see that as a human rights violation, at least. No one deserves to have someone violate their bodies and their wishes, regardless of who they are. And Storm Bride, unfortunately, you are not the only woman that kind of thing has happened to.

We can sit here and argue all day about whether to blame moms or not, but the fact of the matter is, every woman deserves the right to have her baby, her way. For some that might be the hospital, if you feel that is best. But for others, the only way to have the birth that they want, and know that their bodies and their babies are going to be respected, is to go another route.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AutumnAir* 
I tend to think that at least a portion of this issue is to do with the modern 'blame culture'. You know, where bad things don't just happen any more - now they have to be *somebody's* fault. The culture where people will sue someone else because they slipped in their driveway. What would have been considered an unfortunate accident now involves blame and liability.

This is very true. Mind you, I look for someone to blame with Aaron, too - but I end up at me...

Quote:

OBs tend to invite this by pretty much 'promising' a good outcome, especially when they 'pull the dead baby card' to bully mothers into doing what's convenient for them. By saying something like "Your baby will die if you don't do what I tell you to do" you are implying that by doing what you are told there is a guaranteed positive outcome.
So true. What bothers me is how often I see OBs acting as though people just blame them for no reason. They don't even seem to realize that they set themselves up for it by making promises (okay - not clear promises - only implied, but they're still there). They present their opinions as facts, and the risk/benefit analysis tends to boil down to "there is no risk if I want you to do this, and if I don't, the risk is somewhere close to 100%".

Quote:

And nobody wants to be blamed for a bad outcome. OBs at least have huge malpractice insurance and emotional detachment. Mothers-to-be feel that by going to the hospital they absolve themselves of all responsibility if something goes wrong, as there's a convenient OB to blame, who's already asked for the blame by promising them a good outcome if they just listen to him/her.
Sad, but true.

Quote:

Mothers who chose less 'conventional' births are made to feel in no uncertain terms that if anything goes wrong *they* will be blamed for it. When I told family and friends of my homebirth plans I was asked a number of times "But what if something goes wrong? How will you live with yourself?" First, this makes it clear that there is blame to be apportioned if something does go wrong, and secondly that it's clearly my fault if it does.
Yes. I have no doubt that if Aaron had died during a scheduled c-section (or if baby-under-construction does, which keeps me awake at night sometimes), I'd have had 100% universal sympathy. As it was, there are people in my life who clearly blamed me for his death. (In fairness, there are good reasons for that.







)

Quote:

Hospital birthing mamas are never (or at least very very rarely) asked how they will live with themselves if something goes wrong in the hospital - which is *at least* as likely as something going wrong at home (and taking into account morbidity as well as mortality it's actually more likely that something bad will happen in the hospital).
No - and they're also not generally blamed for it if something does go wrong, except maybe if the general public finds out they didn't do what the doctor advised at some point...

Quote:

No mother should have to even contemplate not only something awful happening to their baby but also being blamed for it by many/most/all of the people they know. And that is exactly what women who question the medical model are facing.
Yeah....





















:


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoldmanBaby09* 
This is a HUGE part of what is wrong with our medically managed system in the first place!! Not only do they not treat you as an individual, they don't even treat you as human by doing things to you without your consent or your knowledge. Not only did you not consent, you clearly said no and they did it anyway. I see that as a human rights violation, at least. No one deserves to have someone violate their bodies and their wishes, regardless of who they are. And Storm Bride, unfortunately, you are not the only woman that kind of thing has happened to.

I know I'm not! I've heard stories from women who were screaming "I do not consent" and/or trying to climb off the gurney...and were still cut. It's horrifying.

As for knowledge? Every one of my sets of records contains references to meds I was given without my knowledge - every one. At my anesthesia consultation last week, I was _told_ that it's not usual policy to discuss "every single thing we do".


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## monkaha (Jan 22, 2004)

StormBride-


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainashine* 
This is what I was hoping the Birth Survey would be able to accomplish...really allowing women's experiences to be seen. So far I've been disappointed. Even when I took the survey I didn't feel it asked quite the right questions. And now that I've seen the results...I still feel that way. I was really excited to see the results and it just seems to be one more thing to show that the majority of women were delighted with their medicalized birth and those of us that weren't are the crazy minority.

FYI, the current birth survey results are VERY preliminary!! They just list responses to overall satisfaction with HCP & facility. But the survey goes into much more depth about what actually happened during your labor & birth - it asks about everything from induction & methods (including stripping membranes) to even if you had available to you things like a squat bar & birth ball- wthether or not you used them!

The release of those fully detailed survey results is scheduled for later this year.

As far as promotion of the birth survey, YES, we are trying very hard to get the word out to everyone! I mention it everywhere I can.







Co-workers, my dental hygienist, real estate agents, etc. Sometimes I feel a little weird about it.


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## AutumnAir (Jun 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Yeah....





















:









I was actually thinking of you when I wrote that post. You're the only person I 'know' who's had that terrible experience. And really it's something *no* mother should ever have to go through.

I know there's no point in telling you not to blame yourself, but FWIW, if it's worth anything at all, *I'm* sure that you were in no way to blame. I'm sure that you made the best choices you could make. It doesn't help, I know.









On a more general note, I think that society as a whole needs to stop always looking for someone to blame every time something goes wrong. I think we can all accept that no one wants a baby to die. That both doctors and mothers have the baby's best interests at heart. But that there are differences of opinion as to how best to achieve the best outcome (even what the best outcome is).

No matter what we do we cannot totally eradicate the risks from childbirth (as we can't eradicate the risks from life) and so sometimes things will go wrong. It's nobody's fault when they do (for the most part - things like medical malpractice certainly do occur) unless you want to blame Mother Nature, or God or the universe or whatever. But the vast majority of the time there is really no reason to look for someone to blame. I really don't understand why anyone would even consider blaming the mother who's just lost her baby for that very loss. As though they're not suffering enough as it is.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

I admit I didn't read the whole thread (mind wandering today...). But I wanted to throw out two things I didn't see mentioned yet:

1) TRAINING - We've all been trained since very young children to trust experts and go with the flow. I think there's a relationship between what we're talking about here and CONSUMERISM (we buy what we're told to buy, believe that we "need" things that we do not, etc.). There's also the aspect of school, where we are graded on parroting facts as we've been taught, rather than encouraged in creative thinking. Our society seems built on the notion that only "special" people should be working on solutions - including, of course, doctors; but also advertisements, corporations, government officials, and the educational system - and the rest of us should just go along with it.

Just as a tiny example of an educational counterpoint - in college I was a 4.0 student. I took a world history class that required an essay each week on assigned historical figures. I scored an easy A on each essay, and the professor was clearly impressed with my writing, logic and so on. But one week I was assigned a historical figure that was presented as a "hero" whom I felt was actually a dispicable human being. I wrote a well-reasoned, non-emotional essay arguing that the man was not a hero. I was graded a B on that essay even though the quality of my writing was equal to (and possibly better than) all the other essays I wrote. The only comment the professor gave was a very general disagreement with my position. It's fine if he and I didn't agree, but a great example of how I was penalized for doing far more than my fellow students - really thinking the issue through, and even extra research to back my conclusions.

If we've been taught all along not to question things like that, it's not a big stretch that most of us would have trouble questioning the OB.

2) OVERLOAD - I don't know about the rest of y'all, but I frequently find myself overloaded with decisions to make. Obviously that overload increases substantially if you have a great deal of pressure to make a certain decision. That's why I (and I'm not alone!) vaccinated my daughter "on schedule" for the first nine months, even though I had already been questioning vaccinations since I was pregnant. Saying NO required a substantial commitment from me. It meant I had to be informed enough to face the pediatrician. It meant I had to be comfortable with potentially being kicked out of the practice. It meant getting my husband on board, that's a big one! It meant having enough confidence to tell my nosy mother to drop it. *It meant, above all, feeling confident enough in my decision to accept FULL RESPONSIBILITY for it*.

In a vacuum that might not be such a big deal. But I wasn't in a vacuum, I was surrounded by family members and friends who thought (or would have thought, if they had known) that I was CRAZY. I was also dealing with tons of other issues at the same time: stressful work, marriage issues, a (mildly) special needs daughter, general health issues, mother problems. I needed the time and space to research. I needed access to the right materials. To go through all this requires a lot of commitment and energy - and if you don't know enough about the question at hand to begin with, you may not ever think it could possibly be worth that commitment. I don't question EVERYTHING, I can't!! I'd go crazy!

Note: I used examples other than OB/midwife/UC decisions because in my case, I'd already made that particular decision years ago. So it wasn't a struggle for me. Even so, I had to spend some effort getting DH on board. But here's another example: I can't tell you guys for sure that I would have left my son intact, if my daughter had turned out to be a boy. That wasn't a question I had even considered before, and I might have been so overloaded that I might have just gone with the flow there.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Kind of OT, but:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire* 
Just as a tiny example of an educational counterpoint - in college I was a 4.0 student. I took a world history class that required an essay each week on assigned historical figures. I scored an easy A on each essay, and the professor was clearly impressed with my writing, logic and so on. But one week I was assigned a historical figure that was presented as a "hero" whom I felt was actually a dispicable human being. I wrote a well-reasoned, non-emotional essay arguing that the man was not a hero. I was graded a B on that essay even though the quality of my writing was equal to (and possibly better than) all the other essays I wrote. The only comment the professor gave was a very general disagreement with my position. It's fine if he and I didn't agree, but a great example of how I was penalized for doing far more than my fellow students - really thinking the issue through, and even extra research to back my conclusions.

My mom once got a bad grade on a poetry analysis, because the teacher said her analysis was "wrong". This was her analysis of the meaning of the poem, not the style, meter, etc. The teacher declared that she was "wrong". How can one by wrong, when it's a question of what meaning we find in a poem?? I've written several poems, and people I've shared them with sometimes interpret them _completely_ differently from anything I was thinking/feeling when I wrote them...and, as the _author_, I won't say those people are "wrong", so where does anyone _else_ have the gall to decide what my words really mean? It's hard for a lot of people to question when they're brought up in a world that tells them their own interpretations of emotional content are "wrong".

Quote:

2) OVERLOAD - I don't know about the rest of y'all, but I frequently find myself overloaded with decisions to make. Obviously that overload increases substantially if you have a great deal of pressure to make a certain decision. That's why I (and I'm not alone!) vaccinated my daughter "on schedule" for the first nine months, even though I had already been questioning vaccinations since I was pregnant.
Oh, hell yes. I've had the same thing with vaxes...done them, even though I was questioning, because I wasn't sure _enough_ in the other direction...

Quote:

It meant getting my husband on board, that's a big one!
That, too. DH and I agree on the big picture, usually, but we definitely differ on a lot of the details. (He thinks I'm nuts for deliberately exposing our kids to chickenpox, but that one isn't a huge thing for him, yk?) Fortunately, he was also willing to let me have my way on circ, because things would have become really ugly on that one!


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## minkajane (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Kind of OT, but:

My mom once got a bad grade on a poetry analysis, because the teacher said her analysis was "wrong". This was her analysis of the meaning of the poem, not the style, meter, etc. The teacher declared that she was "wrong". How can one by wrong, when it's a question of what meaning we find in a poem?? I've written several poems, and people I've shared them with sometimes interpret them _completely_ differently from anything I was thinking/feeling when I wrote them...and, as the _author_, I won't say those people are "wrong", so where does anyone _else_ have the gall to decide what my words really mean? It's hard for a lot of people to question when they're brought up in a world that tells them their own interpretations of emotional content are "wrong".

Same thing happened to me. I was taking a philosophy class and we read this essay (I forget by whom) which supposedly proves the existence of God. Something about opposites or something, I forget. Well, my analysis basically pointed out that the guy went into the thing assuming that there was a God and wanting to prove it true, so all of his arguments are going to do what he wants them to do and prove him right. If he had gone into it believing that there was no God, he could have spun the arguments a different way and come up with that conclusion. I even gave examples of different ways of framing the same arguments so they "proved" that there was no God. I got a C and his comments basically said "If this argument didn't make sense, it wouldn't have lasted 2500 years!" So? Christianity has been around 2000 years and I don't agree with that either. Isn't the whole point of philosophy to question our existence and our beliefs?

Anyway, these same types of things go on with OBs as well as teachers. They get used to that position of authority and being treated like the ultimate expert and having everyone agree with them and do what they say. Then when somebody disagrees or doesn't do what they're told, they're taken aback and they don't know how to handle it, so they get defensive and/or angry and punish the person to try and "put them in their place" and regain their control.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire* 
1) TRAINING - We've all been trained since very young children to trust experts and go with the flow. ...
If we've been taught all along not to question things like that, it's not a big stretch that most of us would have trouble questioning the OB.

I've read the same can be said for religion - it teaches us not to question. To obey authority, to believe what we're told & not question it... even though what we're told can fly in the face of logic - just believe & dont' question.

So, in that regard, many would say traditional religion contributes to 'training to obey authority' in the same way that our education system too often does.


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## AutumnAir (Jun 10, 2008)

Okay, I'm probably going to take the whole thread completely OT here, but is there a correlation between religious beliefs and a tendency to 'do what you're told'?

I'm an atheist, though was raised Catholic, and so my whole spiritual journey so far has involved a lot of thinking, reflection, introspection and a tendency to question the authority figures. Perhaps that's why I found it easier than some of the others I know to approach pregnancy and birth with a questioning mindset?

But then I'm not sure. I'm sure there are many religious mamas who question the medical side of birth too.

And I've wondered whether it's easier to defy one authority with the backing of another. E.g. Jehovah's witnesses, as far as I understand, (and please forgive me if I've misunderstood) will refuse a blood transfusion AMA. I would be willing to bet that it's a lot 'easier' for a JW to do so than for me, an atheist, to do it. Both from the point of view of the medical authorities who would be wary of violating someone's religious beliefs, and from the point of view of our own convicition in the matter - to a JW they are following God's law when they refuse such a medical intervention, while I am merely relying on my own personal beliefs, research, knowledge or feelings.

But yes, to get back sort of on-topic, I do think that our culture trains us to do as we're told, to think what 'the authorities' tell us to think.


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## rainashine (Oct 29, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
FYI, the current birth survey results are VERY preliminary!! They just list responses to overall satisfaction with HCP & facility. But the survey goes into much more depth about what actually happened during your labor & birth - it asks about everything from induction & methods (including stripping membranes) to even if you had available to you things like a squat bar & birth ball- wthether or not you used them!

The release of those fully detailed survey results is scheduled for later this year.

As far as promotion of the birth survey, YES, we are trying very hard to get the word out to everyone! I mention it everywhere I can.







Co-workers, my dental hygienist, real estate agents, etc. Sometimes I feel a little weird about it.

That's great if that's the case! I don't remember questions on there like that though when I took it. Also FWIW, I've been posting the link on local boards here and encouraging mamas to take it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
I've read the same can be said for religion - it teaches us not to question. To obey authority, to believe what we're told & not question it... even though what we're told can fly in the face of logic - just believe & dont' question.

So, in that regard, many would say traditional religion contributes to 'training to obey authority' in the same way that our education system too often does.

See, I think this is sooo unfortunate. I'm a Christian. Was raised a Christian. But both my dh and I spent years questioning and researching our faith. I don't think someone can really "own" what they believe until they've questioned it and understand it. I fully understand that someone with the same background can come to different conclusions than we did and that's okay. And honestly, if I were to jump ship so to speak on my faith, I'd be a Wiccan.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AutumnAir* 
But then I'm not sure. I'm sure there are many religious mamas who question the medical side of birth too.

I think the homebirth and natural birth movement actually has deep religious roots. Obviously not for everyone but for many women. I think this may actually be the key to bringing the pro-life and the pro-choice movements together. Choice in birthplace and birth method.

While I did end up with pretty much every intervention possible with my birth, NEVER leading up to the event did I question my body's ability to give birth. I knew, inherently, that birth was normal, natural, and what I was designed for. My grandmother gave birth to a 12lb baby so when my ob thru out the big baby card with an 8.5lb estimate, I really didn't think that was big. Now I have to admit that I get frustrated that more mainstream Christian women don't have faith in the bodies that the creator they claim to believe in gave them. Whether you believe in a creator, evolution, or an evolving creation (or whatever), I just can't believe women were designed to give birth surgically.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AutumnAir* 
And I've wondered whether it's easier to defy one authority with the backing of another. E.g. Jehovah's witnesses, as far as I understand, (and please forgive me if I've misunderstood) will refuse a blood transfusion AMA. I would be willing to bet that it's a lot 'easier' for a JW to do so than for me, an atheist, to do it. Both from the point of view of the medical authorities who would be wary of violating someone's religious beliefs, and from the point of view of our own convicition in the matter - to a JW they are following God's law when they refuse such a medical intervention, while I am merely relying on my own personal beliefs, research, knowledge or feelings.

I'm sure it's easier! Look at vaccines. Some states are still trying to insist you belong to a verifiable religion to qualify for religious exemption. If you're a member of a church that says "no vaccines" there's a whole lot less they can question you on.








: I figured out how to multi-quote!!!


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## langdonslady (Dec 7, 2007)

I think the quick answer is that we are experiencing an uprecedented level of cultural passivity. People are sheep to a degree never before encountered. Thinking for yourself has been replaced by complacent conformity to a degree that gives me the Maoist shudders.

And women in particular, despite the brief resistance during the "women's lib" era, are accepting as a norm, being treated like they aren't capable decision makers, nor vested with personal rights, once they become a walking womb.

Add to that a longstanding cultural tradition of Expert Worship (The Man Who Knows is always listened to, and women are just "hysterical" and in need of being managed) and we have the perfect scenario for this.

The same thing is at the root of the wildfire of personal decisions being legislated away, and mainstream women, by and large, are a strong supporter of the Nanny State, with knee-jerk reactions of "There Out To Be a Law!" every time someone does something stupid, or there is an honestly unavoidable accident, or every time someone does something they themselves don't approve of, especially when it comes to child-rearing.

What else could come from a placid, apathetic populace of ditto-heads who aren't too concerned as long as their TV viewing schedule isn't interrupted?


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## langdonslady (Dec 7, 2007)

Haha, and I will throw in my two cents on what teaches us not to question. I say it's public schooling! It rewards conformity and punishes the maverick.

One of my biggest reasons for homeschooling is that I want my kids to retain the ability to think for themselves and question "The Expert" whoever that may be, instead of bowing before him and being good little widgets. That doesn't mean they get to defy parental authority, but I will never forget being told endlessly in public school "You don't need to know that. Just memorize this." And from a math teacher who herself had no idea how to do algebra "uh, just follow the formula. Plug and chug." (be a good little unthinking machine).

There were a few special teachers, but they were swimming against the tide. They were the heroic exceptions, and somehow they always got punished for it too, while the sycophants, the "team players" got rewarded. Ugh.


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## minkajane (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *langdonslady* 
I think the quick answer is that we are experiencing an uprecedented level of cultural passivity. People are sheep to a degree never before encountered. Thinking for yourself has been replaced by complacent conformity to a degree that gives me the Maoist shudders.

And women in particular, despite the brief resistance during the "women's lib" era, are accepting as a norm, being treated like they aren't capable decision makers, nor vested with personal rights, once they become a walking womb.

Add to that a longstanding cultural tradition of Expert Worship (The Man Who Knows is always listened to, and women are just "hysterical" and in need of being managed) and we have the perfect scenario for this.

The same thing is at the root of the wildfire of personal decisions being legislated away, and mainstream women, by and large, are a strong supporter of the Nanny State, with knee-jerk reactions of "There Out To Be a Law!" every time someone does something stupid, or there is an honestly unavoidable accident, or every time someone does something they themselves don't approve of, especially when it comes to child-rearing.

What else could come from a placid, apathetic populace of ditto-heads who aren't too concerned as long as their TV viewing schedule isn't interrupted?

This exactly. You said it so perfectly.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

Quote:

Okay, I'm probably going to take the whole thread completely OT here, but is there a correlation between religious beliefs and a tendency to 'do what you're told'?
Mmmm....I'm a Christian fundy, was raised in a cult. Dh is a Christian fundy.









We have NO issues with telling Drs no.







All our Amish, Mennonite and Brethren friends have avoided the medical model of birth altogether, and often against medical advice.

So, my answer is "I don't think so".


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## rainashine (Oct 29, 2008)

I was thinking about this thread last night and it struck me that women can be informed about their bodies and about the natural process of birth but HAVE NO IDEA how broken the obstectics system is. I think this might be what catches so many women in the horrible cascade of interventions that so many of us have experienced.


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## billikengirl (Sep 12, 2008)

I was thumbing back through my copy of "thinking woman's guide" and there is included a quote about how "if you don't know your options you don't have any." I've checked this thread a few times and I think that's what made that quote strike me so much this time.

I think researching the birth thing was just part of my personality--heck I research the heck out of a small appliance purchase.

But I can see how a lot of people would just assume that whatever works for the majority of other people couldn't be so bad and leave it at that.


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## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire* 
Just as a tiny example of an educational counterpoint - .....

I think that you and Storm Bride both bring up a brilliant analogy with the college professor. They have one thing in common with the OB--a power differential that gives them the upper hand over those they "serve." With the professor, it's obvious; they hold the grade book and key to your future.

With OBs, they know more about your intimate life and bodily functions than you will ever know of theirs. They can dictate one of the most sacred and personal areas of your life--namely, your sexuality, which includes everything from your intimate relations, the physical impact of those relations, and how you have your baby. They have a wealth more education in medicine and human anatomy than us lay-people and can use that to scare us into interventions in the name of preventing a dead baby or an "exploding" uterus. And let's not forget that your interactions with them most often involve lying down spread eagle with heaven knows what up your insides. Talk about vulnerability. If that's not a power differential, I don't know what is!

Granted, only the "bad apples" exploit this power differential, i.e. those that truly do "play God." But boy, are those memorable and notorious apples!

Admittedly, there are people who do "let" their OBs play God because life is so much easier in the passenger seat, where you never have to take the wheel. DHs extended family comes to mind; to them, the voice of the doctor is indeed the voice of God.

But I still think that it would be better to reframe this discussion into another question: _Why do OBs choose to play God?_ I didn't "let" my OB do it with me, but she'll continue on regardless of whether or not I "let" her. It's not like I question an intervention and she backs off: "Oh, wow. I'm so sorry. I'll stop playing God now."









If I were to answer that question, I would simply say that there are people on this earth that see a power differential that they cannot resist exploiting... all other ethical considerations be damned.

They also do it and get away with it because there is not enough oversight and regulation to prevent this god-playing from going overboard. Stiffer informed consent laws, an overhaul of the whole joke of an FDA, more health care transparency, and greater consumer education would all be great first steps to stymie the OB God Complex.


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## ahimsa_in_action (Mar 15, 2009)

I don't think anyone has brought up shame yet...I perused through the posts and I don't think it's been mentioned so I'll share how I see things. We have had a lot of shame when it comes to our bodies for thousands of years now. How it started, I'm not sure, but I do know it has definitely taken its toll on our ability to listen to our bodies, hear our intuition and feel safe. I feel we've lost our grounding, our roots. Back in the day when "witchery" wasn't condemned, when moon blood was seen as sacred and healing for many ailments, when shamans were plentiful, when we knew how to communicate with the tiniest insect to the largest redwood tree, when womyn's innate wisdom was not mocked or silenced but respected and honored, when giving birth was as simple as digging a hole in the ground and squatting over it or simply squatting next to your bed, when we felt connected to everyone from a primal place rather than only through inert words, when we danced to drums and entered magical trance states as a natural, celebratory part of being alive, when animals were viewed as sacred creatures who we are to love and cherish, when the earth herself was seen as a vital, living being who continuously feeds us her love and support...this was so long ago and yet its energy is still pulsating in our veins, its wisdom is still in our cells and deep in our bones. All of this fear and shame that we're surrounded with and embody is sitting on top of this primal way of living...releasing the fear is all that's needed to tap into this bottomless well once again.


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## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom* 
Mmmm....I'm a Christian fundy, was raised in a cult. Dh is a Christian fundy.









We have NO issues with telling Drs no.







All our Amish, Mennonite and Brethren friends have avoided the medical model of birth altogether, and often against medical advice.

So, my answer is "I don't think so".









Thank you for this. I bumped this up because I got to thinking about it this morning. As easy as it is to leap to stereotyping, MDC is packed with religious and spiritual mamas. And if this is not a community for natural skeptics and questioners of the status quo, I don't know what is!









Adorno had some psychoanalytic theories about what he termed "the authoritarian personality" in a book by the same name. It's complex what makes people submit unquestioningly to what they're told...complex and multifaceted.


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## meganmarie (Jan 29, 2005)

I would never have started asking questions if I hadn't been inspired to do so by someone else. I grew up mainstream, my sister was the "crunchy" one. I thought she was just wierd for having a baby with midwives, co-sleeping, NIP, etc. Of course, I "knew" I would do things differently (hee!).

Luckily when I got pg my sis sent me a copy of a Mothering magazine issue with a list of birth statistics in it that opened my eyes wide. (It was evidence-based research showing episiotomies were mostly stupid, CFM was basically useless, doulas rock, midwives have better outcomes, c/s rates are incredibly high etc.) At that moment I stopped accepting and started asking questions. Even then, I was prone to letting my OBs scare me and never had the balls to switch practitioners. It was HARD to ask questions when the OBs had their hands on the doorknobs the whole time. When they argued with me, it was very tough to stay firm. But I took Bradley classes, wrote a birth plan, resisted the (repeated) induction offers, got a doula, stayed out of the hospital until the last minute, said no thanks to the IV, and pushed ds out intervention-free. That would never have happened if it weren't for my sis.

So, while the role of normal birth advocate to your friends, co-workers, SILs and others can seem thankless and pointless sometimes, I say - keep it up. For every 6 women who blithely ignore your tactful suggestion to become an informed and empowered consumer, maybe there is 1 whose life you change. You never know.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Turquesa* 
Thank you for this. I bumped this up because I got to thinking about it this morning. As easy as it is to leap to stereotyping, MDC is packed with religious and spiritual mamas. And if this is not a community for natural skeptics and questioners of the status quo, I don't know what is!









Adorno had some psychoanalytic theories about what he termed "the authoritarian personality" in a book by the same name. It's complex what makes people submit unquestioningly to what they're told...complex and multifaceted.


I too want to thank you for reminding people of this!


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## rainashine (Oct 29, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meganmarie* 
So, while the role of normal birth advocate to your friends, co-workers, SILs and others can seem thankless and pointless sometimes, I say - keep it up. For every 6 women who blithely ignore your *tactful suggestion* to become an informed and empowered consumer, maybe there is 1 whose life you change. You never know.

I think this is key. It does NO good to argue with someone and force the issue if you will. But it does pay to plant seeds of info.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

:


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