# wwyd if big child snatches toy from smaller one?



## calpurnia (Sep 26, 2004)

i'm filling in an application form for a playgroup & that's one of the questions... what would you do if a big child snatches a toy from a smaller one? i'd be interested to hear GD thoughts, especially in light of recent threads i've read about not forcing sharing.

(obviously the relative sizes of "big" & "little" here would make a difference)


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

i like this article:
http://www.wearsthebaby.com/fairisfair.htm

but the concept isnt very mainstream. idk what kind of playgroup it is, but most people I know, even here, feel that the toy should be taken back and given to the child who had it first... but i like the idea in the article better...


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Oh my gosh, an application for a playgroup?

SGM, that was an interesting article. We ask that the older child set down the toy and ask politely. If the small child was really playing with it or wants it back, we ask the older to return the toy and wait her turn. The rule is, you leave it on the floor, your turn is over. Nobody has to share but we do require that they refrain from grabbing. That is just rude. (We don't grab from them either- we ask for the toy using "please" and if they don't return it, we ask them to leave the toy and the room, although it has never gotten to that point...)


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## bremen (Feb 12, 2005)

i use trades with my boys. if big kid wants the toy baby has, he has to bring him a different toy to trade. baby is pretty much always happy to accept whatever big kid gives him.
i think the same principle could work in playgroup. ask the bigger kid to bring the small one a new toy.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

thats basically what they do in the article I posted - however ultimately if the child doesnt leave the toy or the room or give it back the people in the article dont grab it back, they console the other child.

what would you do, theoretically Edna, if your child didnt return it, or leave the toy or the room? would you then take it, or console the other child?


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

and yea, tradiging is an awesome thing to teach children! helps us a lot here!


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## Murihiku (Oct 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *calpurnia* 

(obviously the relative sizes of "big" & "little" here would make a difference)

Yes, do they mean "bigger" as in size, or "bigger" as in age?


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

I still don't understand this concept, and I've heard it lots of times. I understand not "grabbing" things away from your child, but it's also really NOT right to take things from other kids and all the other kid gets is a parent saying "gee, sorry, too bad" or any other type of "consoling."

That child is learning not to share with your kid... maybe with any other kids... because the other kid might not give it back. That child is learning that he or she should cling tightly to their property at all times because if another child wrests it away, it might be gone forever.

I've had people insist their 4 year old get to carry my kids toys off home with them because they're holding it and don't want to return it. It's not okay with me, so we don't play with those families any more.

At group events with families who subscribe to that idea, I don't even ask DD to share her own stuff. I tell her she does NOT have to share anything. And she usually doesn't. She puts it away in the bag or holds it tightly. Despite the fact that she usually does share in other settings.

Is this somehow considered "rude" or "wrong"? Or is this what we're supposed to be doing? It's so stressful! I can't see any other ways that another family is supposed to deal with a family of kids who snatch without returning and parents who don't return other people's property.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I wouldnt let my kids take something from someone elses home...

as for not learning to share - IDK, seems like a lot of kids learn to share without being forced... my kids have...

i agree sometimes its stressful when you dont make your kids share. I find my kids only dont want to share when the other child isnt sharing with them...


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

If it's my child that did the grabbing, and it's a toy that is there for all to play with, I do what was in the article SGM linked. I encourage my daughter to give it back but don't force it out of her hands.

In all honesty, I wish I didn't feel social pressure to even do that all the time provided no one was getting hurt or was seriously upset. I think it's good for kids to learn how to handle situations themselves without constant micromanaging by adults.

When a bigger child snatches a toy that is there for all to play with from my daughter, I usually say nothing to the other child and only speak with my daughter if she is very upset telling her she can ask for the toy back if she wants to. As a matter of fact, I have been glad for the times that the other parent didn't see and interfere because it gave my daughter the chance to deal with it herself.

I think my daughter actually regressed when it came to sharing when we started a playgroup last year where one of the moms is seriously into forced sharing. It makes me nervous because I feel like I come across as negligent or something by not doing the same. Anyway, strangely enough her kids are the worst at sharing, but I don't know if it is the chicken or the egg in that case.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

If the child who had the toy snatched is upset, I first try voicing my expectation for the toy to be returned (kindly but firmly). If the toy isn't returned in a reasonable amt of time (often determined by the emotional state of the other child), I will remove the toy and return it, and then comfort my dc. I will only do this with my own dc, however. I wouldn't take a toy from another person's child--even my own dc's toy.

I have an 8 yo and a 2 yo. They both share generously and cheerfully (I am honestly shocked at how well my 2 yo shares....dd didn't share nearly so well at that age....I think it is just his temperament--and also his big sister's great example!). I am sure that there are many ways to arrive at this goal, but, ime, taking back a grabbed toy during the toddler years has not prevented us from achieving cheerful sharing habits.


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## mrsfatty (Dec 21, 2004)

Here's what I don't get from that article and what I don't get from people saying they are of the "not forcing their kids to share" camp: how is it ok for your child to take a toy from another child, but it's not ok to take the toy from your child? It teaches YOUR child to be disrespectful of other people's boundaries by NOT making the child give the toy back (it wasn't theirs to take in the first place). If a child snatches a toy, they shouldn't be "rewarded" by being allowed to keep the toy--*that just enforces bullying*--that if I'm bigger and stronger and want it enough, I get it--that's NOT ok by me. I see parents that DON'T make their child, that has snatched a toy away, return the toy as someone who is either lazy, indifferent of the other child's feelings, or attempting to prove that "two wrongs" make a right (their child taking the toy=wrong, not rectifying the situation by giving the toy back=wrong, their child has all the wins, no consequences--except that they may not be welcome to play with those children again).

I tell my child, if he has snatched a toy from another child, that he needs to give it back--it was not his to take. I also encourage him to apologize (taking things away from another child is a form of violence, in my opinion)--if he doesn't then I apologize for him. I point out how the other child's feelings are hurt (or physically hurt depending on how the snatching went down). I ask my child how they would feel if someone took a toy from them while they were playing with it. I encourage him to either wait his turn, or ask the other child if they want to trade toys or play together with the toy. If my child chooses not to follow my cues on this I "help" him make the right choice by going with him to return the toy. If he doesn't want to return the toy, I tell him he must return the toy by the count of three or I will return it for him (I use counting as a time limit to a behavior--he is a spirited child who needs a time boundary)--if he does not return it, then I count and then return it to the child. Most likely my child will have a fit--but I redirect to another toy. I emphasize how they would not want a toy taken from them. We are all playing with the toys together--and that if someone is playing with a toy we want to play with we can either wait our turn or play together with them with the toy or find something else to play with, because there are plenty of other toys to play with. Brutal force sharing shouldn't be allowed--taking something away from someone else is wrong and should be addressed immediately, and if your child isn't willing to make the situation right, you need to HELP them (as in do it with them) make it right. I do encourage my three year old to try to trade with my one year old--and many times that works--but there have been times that my one year old really wasn't done playing with the original toy--at that point, my three year old must return the snatched toy and wait his turn until my one year old is finished.

I thought "forced sharing" was all about your child being required to share a toy they are currently in possession of it (not a snatched toy, but a toy that they have been actively playing with). Like another mother approaching your child and saying it's "time" to give their child a turn--and expecting your child to just give up the toy--I get how that's wrong and I don't think that it's acceptable to make a child give up a toy so there is equality of time sharing. What I don't get is how it's ok for a child to SNATCH a toy ("[brutal] forced sharing") without a parent intervention--why or how is that different?

I do not make my children share toys they don't want to--even if they've had it a long time--but I do NOT allow snatching (from mine or other children)! I encourage taking turns--but do not force it. But, snatching is another form of bullying and I do not tolerate it. Why is that ok to you who allow your children to snatch or steal toys and disrespect another child--and why do you enforce that that behavior is ok, by not making them reconcile the situation? We have been known to have a "toy time out" over toys that continually are fought over...and that's been very effective.

As adults, it is not socially acceptable to snatch or steal things or disrespect others personal boundaries--why is it ok to teach that to our children? Also, we take turns as adults, why isn't it important to teach our children we must wait (and that sometimes waiting can be hard--but waiting can create opportunities for different fun)?

Also, I would never allow my child (or a child visiting my home) to take a toy home from a playdate--that's rude, stealing, and not teaching reasonable boundaries to a child.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I admit I didnt read your whole post - but kids take toys from my children as well and it doesn't bother me. If my child needs help woirking through the upset I will say "it doesnt feel good when someone grabs something from your hands. you were really having fun playing with that" I wil ltalk about how they feel, and then redirect them to something else is necessary. Often, the other child will return the toy while they see this conversation going on. IDK why people think the worst of children. Most children I have met are by nature very compassionate when raised by compassionate parents. I would never tell my child its okay to snatch toys, but I wouldnt snatch the toy back because that wouldnt make sense. I would tell my child its okay not to share, but at the same time if someone doesnt want to share with them I tell them "you know how sometimes you dont want to share something you are having fun with, or something special to you? thats how this child feels. You may be able to find a toy to trade, or a different toy for yourself to play with"

off to read the rest of your post now.

I admit, it takes a leap of faith to use this approach at first. But I have faith in my children that they are good beings.


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## Rico'sAlice (Mar 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrsfatty* 
Here's what I don't get from that article and what I don't get from people saying they are of the "not forcing their kids to share" camp: *how is it ok for your child to take a toy from another child*, but it's not ok to take the toy from your child?

It's *not* "ok" for them to grab the toy. And in the Fair is Fair article you do make this clear to your child. "Verbally, I tell him he must [return the object], and that grabbing is unkind, against our family rules, and rude." It's not like you just stand there and do nothing or give a "Good grabbing, sweetheart!"

Quote:

If a child snatches a toy, they shouldn't be "rewarded" by being allowed to keep the toy--that just enforces bullying--*that if I'm bigger and stronger and want it enough, I get it-*-that's NOT ok by me. I see parents that DON'T make their child, that has snatched a toy away, return the toy as someone who is either lazy, indifferent of the other child's feelings, or attempting to prove that "two wrongs" make a right (their child taking the toy=wrong, not rectifying the situation by giving the toy back=wrong, their child has all the wins, no consequences--except that they may not be welcome to play with those children again).
But when you as a parent grab the object from him you are modeling exactly that! (the bolded part) To me _that_ is what exemplfies that two wrongs don't make a right. If grabbing is wrong for the child to do, then it's not right for you to do it either just because you are older/bigger.

IMO, one can't really "make" their child return the toy without employing a techinique that causes longer term damage (brute force, threats, bribing, etc.) What you can do is make clear your opinion and help them with developing an inner character that doesn't grab/shares/returns things of their own goodwill.
As for the other child, that is where validating their feelings, and possibly helping them brainstorm solutions comes in. That can also help get the focus on the grabee's loss, rather than the grabber's actions and hopefully inspire empathy in the grabber rather than defensiveness possibly even leading to a genuine apology (versus an empty coerced "sorry.").


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

One perspective I do share with the article is the understanding that our small dc _will_ mature into sharing individuals. In the meantime, we have to deal with (survive) the inappropriate behaviors that will come up. My approach/priority is to minimize the pain of this period, by stepping in relatively quickly and helping everyone move on.

Also, I think kids are more sophisticated than we sometimes give them credit for being. I truly think even a very young child can see a distinction between one child grabbing a toy from another, and a parent returning a toy that has been grabbed. I also think that, if you ask children in a neutral moment, they would feel that having the toy removed is more "right" than being able to continue playing with a toy that was grabbed.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

okay I finished your post. could have written it myself a year ago, I've had a shift in thinking lately and I feel much more peaceful as a person and parent.

"As adults, it is not socially acceptable to snatch or steal things or disrespect others personal boundaries--why is it ok to teach that to our children? Also, we take turns as adults, why isn't it important to teach our children we must wait (and that sometimes waiting can be hard--but waiting can create opportunities for different fun)?"

I am not teaching my children that. I am teaching them that under no circumstance is snatching a toy okay, and when it happens to them they do realize how hurtful it is. I used to not "allow" snatching, same as you. it happened ALL THE TIME. since I stepped back, I cant remember the last time it happened. They take turns, play TOGETHER with the same toy, or if they want a toy from the baby they trade. Today my DS walked away from a toy and DD started playing with it and he wanted it back, and she handed it back over to him. They learned compassion much more quickly with the approach we use now. I can't even believe these are the same kids when it comes to the snatching issue!

"I see parents that DON'T make their child, that has snatched a toy away, return the toy as someone who is either lazy, indifferent of the other child's feelings, or attempting to prove that "two wrongs" make a right"

im not lazy, I do care about the other childs feelings, which is why when it was necessary I talked to the other child. I'm not trying to "prove" two wrongs dont make a right. They simply dont. I dont need to prove that for it to be true. I understand this is a hard hard hard concept to receive if you aren't "there yet" and some people never get there. You can think whatever you want about me since I dont make my children do that, but my sons teachers at school are floored at how gentle and compassioante my son is. How in tune he is with other students. how well he shares. how he doesn't have a "this for that everything has to be fair attitude" (like when all the kids get to each cupcakes and he cant because of his food allergies - he never makes a fuss) my son has a healthy outlook on life, and knows how to treat others. My DD is on the same path. She is very physical and it's what we are doing now that has made all the difference in her lately. (and my son, but he was always gentle by nature, so the change is more drastic in her)

ETA: my daughter is the smaller on and she was the biggest snatcher haha... oh wait, not my 9 month old baby might take the cake on snatching! so IDK about the "bigger" thing... but ditto what Rico said anyway!


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## mrsfatty (Dec 21, 2004)

I'm not saying my child is bad--but he needs guidance--especially since he's spirited/high-needs. He needs clear boundaries--he needs guidance to see insight into how others are feeling. Sometimes children get get focused on what they want they forget about what others want--that's natural (it's age-appropriate)...but, we need to HELP them do the right thing by encouraging them not to bully another child. *IF* they do not do it themselves, we need to make it right by making sure they aren't "rewarded" by being allowed to keep something that they forced out from another.

I can't just walk into my friend's house and take her tv and say it's mine because I want it--I can ask to borrow it or share it or take a turn--but it would NEVER be ok for me to just take it--that's stealing.

It's not sharing if something is just taken away. So, I don't understand how snatching is a part of the "sharing" category--and why it's a part of a "no forced sharing" parents' discipline repertoire. I just don't get allowing snatching. I understand that "snatching" a toy from a child that has just "snatched" doesn't exactly philosophically work--but in reality, if your child is unwilling to give back, unable to be empathetic or have the self-control to wait a turn, they enforcing it becomes necessary. I don't get what allowing a child to keep a toy they've snatched teaches them, except that bullying works and it's ok.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

ds1 is special needs (ASD) and that being said, we provide him guidance without snatching a toy back - and he no longer snatches toys and his sharing has flourished recently.

do what works for you. but I assure you I am not lazy and my children have not learned its okay to snatch toys - this is probably one of the things I am complimented most on by "professionals" (teachers/behavioral therapists who have commented on how advanced my children are in the sharing/consideration department)

I completely understand your reasoning, because that is my old point of view. I think that there is probably no way to help you understand my point of view, as I remember when people tried to explain to me I just couldnt get past how they were teaching their kids bad things and thats wrong and in real life for adults etc.... I had to get to this point on my own, where I finally "got it" and now in retrospect im like, ha, yea so many people tried to explain this concept to me, but I wasnt ready then.


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## kiwiva (Apr 17, 2006)

I don't force my daughter to share but I don't let her take toys from other kids and go on her merry way. I stop her, remind her we don't take toys from other kids and ask her to return it until she will (sometimes takes a bit of time). I don't force it from her hands, threaten, bargain or anything else. I point out that the child is upset and she doesn't like when others take toys from her, etc. If it is her toy and she isn't willing to share it I will put it away. On the 1 occasion when she just would not return it, I removed us from the room and pretty quickly she decided she was willing to give it to the child's mother so she could give it to him.

DD has been the bigger kid (she's big and a lot of our friends are smaller) and she has also been the more forceful kid taking from a bigger/older but more sensitive kid. If a bigger kid takes a toy from her, I don't intercede. We've had a few cases of that where they worked it out. I don't intercede when DD does it if the kids can work it out, but she was in a big snatching phase so I was always watching and if the other kid could not fend for himself I did the above.

She has stopped the snatching pretty much now. We always review the rule before class or playgroup that we don't take toys from other kids. Eventually it sinks in apparently.


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## mrsfatty (Dec 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
I am not teaching my children that. I am teaching them that under no circumstance is snatching a toy okay, and when it happens to them they do realize how hurtful it is. I used to not "allow" snatching, same as you. it happened ALL THE TIME. since I stepped back, I cant remember the last time it happened. They take turns, play TOGETHER with the same toy, or if they want a toy from the baby they trade. Today my DS walked away from a toy and DD started playing with it and he wanted it back, and she handed it back over to him. They learned compassion much more quickly with the approach we use now. I can't even believe these are the same kids when it comes to the snatching issue!

"I see parents that DON'T make their child, that has snatched a toy away, return the toy as someone who is either lazy, indifferent of the other child's feelings, or attempting to prove that "two wrongs" make a right"

im not lazy, I do care about the other childs feelings, which is why when it was necessary I talked to the other child. I'm not trying to "prove" two wrongs dont make a right. They simply dont. I dont need to prove that for it to be true. I understand this is a hard hard hard concept to receive if you aren't "there yet" and some people never get there. You can think whatever you want about me since I dont make my children do that, but my sons teachers at school are floored at how gentle and compassioante my son is. How in tune he is with other students. how well he shares. how he doesn't have a "this for that everything has to be fair attitude" (like when all the kids get to each cupcakes and he cant because of his food allergies - he never makes a fuss) my son has a healthy outlook on life, and knows how to treat others. My DD is on the same path. She is very physical and it's what we are doing now that has made all the difference in her lately. (and my son, but he was always gentle by nature, so the change is more drastic in her)

Ok, here's the thing: I have a mom and a girl that come to my house for play dates. She is not of a gentle discipline mindset at all (she talks regularly about how she's spanked her kids and proud of it and all). She tries to force my children to take turns--I don't make them take turns--I let her and her daughter know that my kids aren't done with it yet (when my children resist), does she want to play with XYZ instead while she waits or why not ask my son if he wants to trade with this toy--otherwise, sorry he's not done yet!

Then, a minute later the daughter takes the toy away from my child (and of course, my child gets upset). The mother does nothing about it (because, in her mind, I should have made my child give up the toy when they asked a minute ago). I tell the daughter (since the mother is doing NOTHING in addressing her or my child) that my son was playing with it first and that she needs to wait her turn and that it upsets my son--I start talking with my child saying how I'm sorry that the toy was taken away and how it isn't nice to take things away from other people. And still, the mother and the daughter do nothing. This girl bullies my kids. It's all about what she wants when she wants it and the mother does nothing in the way of guidance for her daughter about what's acceptable (this friend's two older daughters have the same problem--but are bigger and more violent when they do it). It teaches her daughter it's acceptable for her to take a toy, because she never says that it's not ok. It teaches her that she can do whatever she wants (hit, kick, scream, push, take, etc.) whenever she wants--and to never consider another's feelings. As long as the daughter gets what she wants when she wants, it doesn't matter what she does in the process--it's ok, cause daughter is happy.

In my book: WAY WRONG!

While you may be able to get away with allowing snatching in a group of gentle discipline families (because the children are coming from a background of compassion, empathy, love, acceptance, mutual respect, etc.)--how do you think it would work in a setting where everyone doesn't share the same philosophy?

My kids won't be physically assertive and aggressive and try to take the toy back--they (well, the three year old) will verbally say, "I don't like that! I was playing with that! Give it back! That makes me sad!" But that means nothing in a group of people where physical force trumps words and common respect. It teaches my kids that physical force wins--the daughter of my friend gets what she wants when she wants if she just forces it--so why shouldn't I try that? It teaches my kids that words don't mean anything, because their words aren't respected--and that they only way they can be "heard" is if they get physical...

I don't see how my friend's behavior is anything but encouraging bullying--and when that's demonstrated for my kids I HAVE to do something to make it right. I don't allow my children to do to someone they don't like having done to them--and by don't allow, I mean, I first let encourage them to make the right decision--if they don't I help them--because it's hard to give up something they want. But, I think it's more important to teach the Golden Rule then allow chaos and have blurred boundaries and no respect.

Our kids come into contact with people of all backgrounds--so, I think it's especially necessary to make things right by helping them do the right thing. I don't see snatching as the same as pushing (like, just cause my kids push, I don't push them--but, I see snatching as something different). I think there is a level to which we must guide our children--to teach them what is and isn't acceptable behavior.

When my children are playing alone--it's easier to just step back and let them play--very rarely do I have to intervene. There are a few mommies we have playdates with that share the same philosophy and raise their children gently (like I'm trying to do)--and we can just let them play. But, there are certain situations, where we have mixed parenting beliefs where the kids who are gently disciplined are bullied--and the other parents do nothing about it, because they figure the kids will "figure it out themselves" (as in, whoever is biggest will rule the roost and it will be about them--whoever can physically dominate wins--instead of all the kids enjoying themselves and playing TOGETHER).

I LIKE the philosophy--but it's not working in real life for me.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

well I couldnt be friends with someone who thinks its okay to hit their children. I know some people can, but I cannot as it goes against one of the most basic family morals we have, and how can I enforce that we do not support violence by saying that a friendship is more important to me then what I believe most strongly in? I was just talking about this with another friend, who feels the same way. what it comes down to is I want to teach my children that no friendship is worth sticking around people who do dangerous or wrong things (such as violence, drugs, etc - that includes spanking)

What you are describing is not a parent who doesn't enforce sharing, etc but a parent who is a bully to her children, and allows her children to be a bully to others. that is different. My children meet children like that in school - just the same we stick to our family rules and its working.

In your case, it sounds even more so like you are someone who should go along with the article. Your focus should be on helping your children deal with how it feels when someone snatches from them or wont share with them. you are worried too much about what this other lady is doing or not doing.

you (general) can't blame your inability to be the parent you want to be and have the success you wish to have on the way other people are parenting their children. you have to parent around other people's parenting sometimes. thats life.

if my kids did not enjoy playing with a child like that I would not make them. if they did, then I wouldn't try to "fix" it - if your kids want to play with those kids even though they are bullys then who is it bothering? you? and if they dont like playing with that child, then why are you still setting up playdates?

the lady you are descriving is NOT doing what it says in the article. She is not saying "that is not okay." to her daughter. she is not saying to your child "its very hurtful to have a toy snatched away." she is just standing back doing nothing.

I dont see how doing nothing is the same as not forcing a child to give something back. there is a middle ground - thats what I practice.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kiwiva* 
I don't force my daughter to share but I don't let her take toys from other kids and go on her merry way. I stop her, remind her we don't take toys from other kids and ask her to return it until she will (sometimes takes a bit of time). I don't force it from her hands, threaten, bargain or anything else. I point out that the child is upset and she doesn't like when others take toys from her, etc. If it is her toy and she isn't willing to share it I will put it away. On the 1 occasion when she just would not return it, I removed us from the room and pretty quickly she decided she was willing to give it to the child's mother so she could give it to him.

DD has been the bigger kid (she's big and a lot of our friends are smaller) and she has also been the more forceful kid taking from a bigger/older but more sensitive kid. If a bigger kid takes a toy from her, I don't intercede. We've had a few cases of that where they worked it out. I don't intercede when DD does it if the kids can work it out, but she was in a big snatching phase so I was always watching and if the other kid could not fend for himself I did the above.

She has stopped the snatching pretty much now. We always review the rule before class or playgroup that we don't take toys from other kids. Eventually it sinks in apparently.

this sounds like a good approach


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## mrsfatty (Dec 21, 2004)

Ok, thanks for the insight.

I do want to say that with the friends of similar philosophy in life we haven't had to physically "make" the children EVER give a toy back--they can relate to each other empathetically and when they are reminded how it feels when someone takes a toy away--they immediately return the snatched toy and most times they apologize. It's just not working in the environment I described before (where there is bullying going on)--something about that situation makes my kids unable to empathize (I can't blame them). And we are in the process of no longer meeting with this family anymore...partly because of this reason. The only times I have taken the toy and physically given it back (when he hasn't done it himself) is in situations with this family. Admittedly, it's taken me a while to see why my kids were "acting out" when we met with them--but I think I'm catching on.

So basically, to you, the article talks about encouraging your children to do the right thing, consider the feelings of the offended child, and asking them to give the toy back--but not physically taking the toy when the child doesn't follow the cues of what's "right and wrong"?

I appreciate your responses, super glue mommy and kiwiva, and am enjoying your feedback--thanks for taking the time! I'm also enjoying the thoughts of others as well!









Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack the thread!


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

I just always feel like its about people thinking their kid is more important than anyone else. I don't really think its true, but it leaves that kind of taste in my mouth.

I have once said to DD when she took her toy back "It is not nice to take things from other people, but I know [kid] took your [toy] first. Would you like me to put [toy] away so [kid] doesn't take it again?" And then I had to put it in the stroller AND block the other kid from taking it from our stroller. I have no idea what her mother thought, but we haven't played with them since. So... if your kid has stolen something from my kid and my kid then goes and snatches it back... we're all good? I mean, is that what the other mother expected/wanted/preferred to happen? That somehow that equalled the kids working it out?

Because the mother didn't notice that whole encounter, but the time before that, it turned into a very very very long, tedious conversation with her child about returning the toy, DD being sad, please return the toy, no we can't take it home with us, no we can't borrow it for a year, etc. etc. etc.

I don't just go snatch the toy from my kid when he/she takes one. I tell the kid its taken from "You were playing with that huh? We'll give it back." Then I talk to my child for a minute about why to give it back, and offer some options for asking for a turn or using the toy cooperatively. If I have to, I will take it from my child and return it. That doesn't happen hardly at all though.

I think of it like I do what just happened with DS (16 mo). He grabbed the dog's fur. It doesn't hurt her, but it isn't kind to her, and she doesn't like it. I don't leave it to the dog to force DS to let go. I get off my butt, kneel down to DS, tell DS to pet the dog gently instead, and show him how to pet nicely. I also though, pry his hand off the handful of fur if he hasn't let go when I first kneeled down next to him and said "no, that hurts the dog." I would pry my child's hand off another child's toy if I had to, in just the same way.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrsfatty* 
Ok, thanks for the insight.

I do want to say that with the friends of similar philosophy in life we haven't had to physically "make" the children EVER give a toy back--they can relate to each other empathetically and when they are reminded how it feels when someone takes a toy away--they immediately return the snatched toy and most times they apologize. It's just not working in the environment I described before (where there is bullying going on)--something about that situation makes my kids unable to empathize (I can't blame them). And we are in the process of no longer meeting with this family anymore...partly because of this reason. The only times I have taken the toy and physically given it back (when he hasn't done it himself) is in situations with this family. Admittedly, it's taken me a while to see why my kids were "acting out" when we met with them--but I think I'm catching on.

So basically, to you, the article talks about encouraging your children to do the right thing, consider the feelings of the offended child, and asking them to give the toy back--but not physically taking the toy when the child doesn't follow the cues of what's "right and wrong"?

I appreciate your responses, super glue mommy and kiwiva, and am enjoying your feedback--thanks for taking the time! I'm also enjoying the thoughts of others as well!









Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack the thread!

yes that is what the article is saying to me. Sometimes a child won't follow the cues of what is right and wrong despite what we do - but we have done our part - we have guided our children in what is right to do. doing the right thing comes from the heart - you can make them give the toy back but that wouldnt be making them do the right thing, in my eyes - and that will not teach them how to decide on their own to give the toy back. as for forcing it with that family, I don't think that is necessary or beneficial in any way. I know you do not intend it this way, but it almost comes across as "im making my kids give it back because thats what I wish you would do" I'm sure she isnt taking it that way though because she sounds pretty disconnected from what you say about her. how hard for your children to have such a rough playdate, and then be forced into being compassionate with children who they have no desire to be compassionate towards. I would work on teaching them that sometimes we can be gracious and be kind to others even though they are not kind to us. I would probably, if I somehow ended up in that situation, instead of forcing the child to give the item back say "you usually are very good about sharing, but right now you are having a hard time with that. the right thing to do is to return the toy to the other child." IF your children are older perhaps talk to them about it after the fact, find out if they want to continue these play dates, and let them know that when someone isnt kind to them they can still be kind, but they can do their best not to be around them as much or at all in the future. one way they can do this is to let you know they dont want to do playdate anymore for the time being.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I do what is going to be best for my child to teach my child the best way to interact with others.

My children ARE more important to *me* then other people's children. That doesn't mean other children dont deserve consideration - which is what I teach my children - it just means I am going to do what is best for MY child. and not in a "my child gets to keep the toy" way but in a "my child will learn to do the right thing because its the right thing to do" kind of way.

perhaps this way "takes longer" but in the long run its for their best interest.

it would be no hair off my back if someone's parent didnt want to let their child play with my children anymore because of it. However, with the exception of forms of abuse, I wouldn't stop setting up playdates for my children just because *I* didnt like the way it went over sharing. If my children were unhappy, that would be another thing.

that being said, in the end this works for us, and so far my kids are far better sharers then any of the "forced sharers" we have encountered.
My children's problems with sharing does seem to flair up when around a parent who is forcing the child to share though. like once a child took a toy from my child and my child was upset. I addressed MY child "you were playing with that! it's upsetting when someone takes your toy. can we play with something else instead?" to which my friend replied "no! my child has to learn its NOT okay to take toys. and takes the toy and gives it back to my child - making my child VERY uncomfortable and not wanting to play with the toy... of course these kinds of interactions cause tension between the children. To me it wasnt a big deal. it wouldnt be a big deal to my child either. the making a big deal out of it caused a lot of tension over the sharing issue while that child was visiting, and we had problems with DD "hoarding" things which is unusual since she is usually the one who walks around giving things away. DS1 too... so IDK, I used to share the same logic as some of the ladies here, but experience and a shift in thinking towards a new logic has shown me that what we are doing now is much better then what we were doing - and what we still see being done by other parents we know.


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## crnnoel (May 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bremen* 
i use trades with my boys. if big kid wants the toy baby has, he has to bring him a different toy to trade. baby is pretty much always happy to accept whatever big kid gives him.
i think the same principle could work in playgroup. ask the bigger kid to bring the small one a new toy.

This is what I do w/ my kids. If DS want something that DD is playing with, he needs to bring a different toy for her. At this point, it works. I'm not sure what we'll do as DD gets bigger and starts caring what she's playing with...


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
I do what is going to be best for my child to teach my child the best way to interact with others.

So, what do you do if a kid takes a toy from your child and the other parent comforts and then cajoles your child to let hers keep it? What do you do if your kid snatches a toy and then the other kid snatches it back? What do you expect the other parent to do?


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## mrsfatty (Dec 21, 2004)

This is sort of related...out of curiosity, for those who do not intervene when your child snatches a toy away or another child snatches a toy from your child: what events DO you intervene on? If your child hits, or another child hits your child--do you let the kids figure it out themselves, or do you get in the middle? If your child is being verbally taunted or made fun of (or your child is doing that to another child), do you intervene? Why one and not the other (if you do for certain circumstances, but not others)?

I am also curious as to how you handle the children "fighting" over the toy--or how you handle the other parents (or what you expect from other parents) in these situations (snatching, hitting, verbally attacking, etc.)?

Sorry, I just had to come back and ask!


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrsfatty* 
*I thought "forced sharing" was all about your child being required to share a toy they are currently in possession of it* (not a snatched toy, but a toy that they have been actively playing with). Like another mother approaching your child and saying it's "time" to give their child a turn--and expecting your child to just give up the toy--I get how that's wrong and I don't think that it's acceptable to make a child give up a toy so there is equality of time sharing. What I don't get is how it's ok for a child to SNATCH a toy ("[brutal] forced sharing") without a parent intervention--why or how is that different?

I do not make my children share toys they don't want to--even if they've had it a long time--but I do NOT allow snatching (from mine or other children)! I encourage taking turns--but do not force it. But, snatching is another form of bullying and I do not tolerate it. Why is that ok to you who allow your children to snatch or steal toys and disrespect another child--and why do you enforce that that behavior is ok, by not making them reconcile the situation? We have been known to have a "toy time out" over toys that continually are fought over...and that's been very effective.

As adults, it is not socially acceptable to snatch or steal things or disrespect others personal boundaries--why is it ok to teach that to our children? Also, we take turns as adults, why isn't it important to teach our children we must wait (and that sometimes waiting can be hard--but waiting can create opportunities for different fun)?


ITA.

We did not do forced sharing. You do not, IMO, need to "share" your possessions ahead of your own needs/wants. But I would also not tolerate stealing from another child.

Now, when we had guests I made it clear to my kids that they needed to share their possessions, as in if toys were out they were open for guests to use to. If they had something they did not want to share (or even several somethings) they needed to be put away before the guests came over. BUT, if my kids were using a specific item while their friends were there, they did not need to give it over (they just couldn't have a huge pile they were "using", kwim).

I don't remember ever wresting an item out of my child's hands while at playgroup or anything like that with our rules (just requesting the snatcher return the item and verbally request a turn, or if a younger child verbally request a turn for them (that turn, of course, was not forced on the child with the toy but was usually fairly soon)).

While I agree with kids working things out on their own once they are verbal and a little older (and after many, many situations with help) I do not agree about letting kids "working it out" when there is an obviously skewed dynamic (one child much older/larger/forceful/whatever).


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## Carlyle (Mar 31, 2007)

So what did you say on the application? Are you "accepted?" I'm so curious to hear what their idea of a good answer was! And I'm fascinated by the idea of an application for a playgroup...what's their rationale for it, do you know? Thanks!


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
thats basically what they do in the article I posted - however ultimately if the child doesnt leave the toy or the room or give it back the people in the article dont grab it back, they console the other child.

what would you do, theoretically Edna, if your child didnt return it, or leave the toy or the room? would you then take it, or console the other child?

We would continue to insist, offering the child who grabbed as many alternatives as possible, explaining why the grabber needed to return the toy, and so on. If you are saying, the child who grabbed the toy, even when offered with many other options, and explanations, and sympathy, and a turn later, still clung to the toy she had grabbed, and refused to let the other child finish her turn, then we would probably console the other child but also ask the child who grabbed to please not play with us until she was ready to respect other people. Keep in mind that the grabber is usually my child.







And that we have dealt with this a lot over the past 6 - 12 months.







And we have never gotten to that point where we had to ask her to leave. She was always eventually prepared to give the toy back and take a substitute until the other child (usually a baby, but not always) was finished.

It really does depend, though. I am talking about a situation when a verbal toddler grabs from a non-verbal baby. When you have two toddlers who are both more or less verbal, you can help them compromise. When you have two babies, children who are really not following sentences and instructions, distraction is definitely more appropriate. If one toy becomes a source of contention, I would distract both babies and remove the toy- same with toddlers. I don't mean, scream "Ice-cream!" and then hide the toy, I mean, distract with more gradual re-direction.


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## calpurnia (Sep 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Carlyle* 
So what did you say on the application? Are you "accepted?" I'm so curious to hear what their idea of a good answer was! And I'm fascinated by the idea of an application for a playgroup...what's their rationale for it, do you know? Thanks!

i said that i would explain to big child that small child was playing with that toy, & ask them to give it back, or to see if small child would be happy with a trade







i only have a 9 month old so this is a bit foreign to me! i think i need to start reading.

thanks for the discussion & the linked to article.

re: playgroup - it's actually more of a nursery, i suppose. a parent run cooperative that operates a couple of mornings a week. if you are "accepted" you have to work one session for every seven sessions your child is there, so i think they want to figure out if you are on board/amenable to their ideas. i don't know explicitly but i think it's on the GD side of things. i haven't heard back yet!


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom* 
So, what do you do if a kid takes a toy from your child and the other parent comforts and then cajoles your child to let hers keep it? What do you do if your kid snatches a toy and then the other kid snatches it back? What do you expect the other parent to do?

I already answered this. I would have NO problem if a child snatched a toy from my child and wouldnt give it back.

"what do you do if a kid takes a toy from your child and the other parent comforts and then cajoles your child to let hers keep it?"
While I don't think this is right, and this is NOT what I would do, I would redirect my child and tell my child that it's not fair when someone snatched a toy from us, and the right thing to do is give it back. Then I would help them find something else to do.
"What do you do if your kid snatches a toy and then the other kid snatches it back?"
this is something I might just stand back on. if necessary I'd say what I saw "you snatched the toy and they snatched it back!"
"What do you expect the other parent to do?"
I dont "expect" the other parent to do anything. I do not care how the other parent handles it - whether it be the same as me, or whether they ignore it completely and do nothing (which is not what I do), or whether they make the child give it back. I deal with MY child on the situation.

So far, no complaints though, since with our approach our children have learned to share and not snatch toys, we are usually the ones who are on the "being snatched from" end of things, and usually with parents who force their kids to share, take turns, and give back snatched items. My kids are not usually the snatchers, though when around these children they will become "hoarders" sometimes. The forced returning of item I notice causes a lot of tension among the children, so playdates seem to go much smoother when with parents who don't force sharing or make a child return a snatched toy. We stand close and watch them work it out themselves, and prepare ourselves for the need to help them through it should it come to that


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrsfatty* 
This is sort of related...out of curiosity, for those who do not intervene when your child snatches a toy away or another child snatches a toy from your child: what events DO you intervene on? If your child hits, or another child hits your child--do you let the kids figure it out themselves, or do you get in the middle? If your child is being verbally taunted or made fun of (or your child is doing that to another child), do you intervene? Why one and not the other (if you do for certain circumstances, but not others)?

I am also curious as to how you handle the children "fighting" over the toy--or how you handle the other parents (or what you expect from other parents) in these situations (snatching, hitting, verbally attacking, etc.)?

Sorry, I just had to come back and ask!

I DO intervene on the sharing thing if the kids aren't working it out... just not in the same way you do.

As for hitting, I would comfort the hurt child and prevent any further hitting etc.

what do you mean how do I handle the parents? I don't handle them. they aren't my responsibility.

I think you are under the impression we do NOTHING. we do do something, we just don't take an eye for an eye approach. Of course I'm not just going to let someone make fun of my kid or hurt my kid OR vice versa. You make it sound like I just stand back and do nothing with the toy snatching thing, and that is not the case. I feel I've explained this very clearly already, but since I've been on your end of the point of view in the past I understand if its too "different" to understand right now.

Edna - I see what you are saying you do is much like what is done in the article, and much like the approach I take as well


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## Rico'sAlice (Mar 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
I DO intervene on the sharing thing if the kids aren't working it out... just not in the same way you do.


I think this part is _really_ hard to get until one is ready for it. The concept of getting involved without being the one to "fix" the situation. I've just finally started to grasp it (in a real way, not just intellectually) after a Lot of reading, discussion, and soul searching. I know I have had a lot of fear that if I don't _make_ my son do the "right" thing that he'll think that it was _ok_ to do the "wrong" thing. It's such a challenge to trust that children do learn from modeling, explaining, etc. and that refraining from _controlling_ is not the same as doing nothing- in fact you are sometimes even _more_ involved. It takes a lot more to get down and talk through this than to yell threats from the other side of the room. [Not saying that's what someone here is doing- that's how my aquantance handles it though. Much less involved but way more controlling.]

ETA- I did want to mention that when they are really little and don't totally undestand what you are saying and grab something that I would gently guide their arm towards returning it to the other person. At that age they generally aren't really trying to possess the toy and just let it go.


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## colobus237 (Feb 2, 2004)

I have the kid who snatched give the toy back. It typically doesn't require physical force, but I disagree with the posted article that said a parent taking the toy and giving it back to the wronged child would "add to the injustice of the situation." It seems silly to me, especially if we are thinking of treating children in the way that we would want to be treated. If someone steals from me, requiring/forcing them to give it back is not an equally unjust act of stealing from the stealer.


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## Daphneduck (Jan 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ccohenou* 
I have the kid who snatched give the toy back. It typically doesn't require physical force, but I disagree with the posted article that said a parent taking the toy and giving it back to the wronged child would "add to the injustice of the situation." It seems *silly* to me, especially if we are thinking of treating children in the way that we would want to be treated. If someone steals from me, requiring/forcing them to give it back is not an equally unjust act of stealing from the stealer.


Bold is mine. I agree with you, 100%. "Silly" was the exact word that came to my mind when I read the part of the article that reffered to one child grabbing a toy from another child.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rico'sAlice* 
I think this part is _really_ hard to get until one is ready for it. The concept of getting involved without being the one to "fix" the situation. I've just finally started to grasp it (in a real way, not just intellectually) after a Lot of reading, discussion, and soul searching. I know I have had a lot of fear that if I don't _make_ my son do the "right" thing that he'll think that it was _ok_ to do the "wrong" thing. It's such a challenge to trust that children do learn from modeling, explaining, etc. and that refraining from _controlling_ is not the same as doing nothing- in fact you are sometimes even _more_ involved. It takes a lot more to get down and talk through this than to yell threats from the other side of the room. [Not saying that's what someone here is doing- that's how my aquantance handles it though. Much less involved but way more controlling.]

ETA- I did want to mention that when they are really little and don't totally undestand what you are saying and grab something that I would gently guide their arm towards returning it to the other person. At that age they generally aren't really trying to possess the toy and just let it go.

I agree, I've never been a forced sharer, but these concepts I am just not ready to accept and it took me a long time and a lot of soul searching as well to get to this point. We had a major problem with snatching until we took on the approach suggested in that article. then it was like our snatching problem dissipated overnight (well not literally, but quickly enough for me to be like - wow, the one thing I thought was the horribly wrong approach WAS actually the resolution lol) as we make these small gains more and more I am more willing to accept these kinds of concepts that once seemed SILLY to ME too. You are right there is probably nothing we can say to help others understand who are not ready yet - it requires a shift in thinking that some people haven't gotten to yet and a level that some people may never reach in their journey, which is okay too.









It is a really exciting place to be once you get there though, isn't it? Of course, we're still growing, that process never ends. Just growing in this way is so amazing and eye opening and just... wow... I do wish everyone could make it to this place, but I understand why its so hard to get here. You are right, it does require a lot of work.

For me its been one of those things that as I made small steps they were really based on a blind faith. I didn't believe these things could "work" but I'd try them and then they would. Even now, when people ask me how I got my children to that point (they got themselves there, I just guided them) if I tell them my ideas they just think I'm crazy and I must be lucky...lucky twice over and working on a 3rd.







a lot of people arent willing to accept that my not forced sharers have learned to be exceptionally excellent sharers then their forced sharers.


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## Daphneduck (Jan 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
as we make these small gains more and more I am more willing to accept these kinds of concepts that once seemed SILLY to ME too.









When you make comments such as this, you seem very condecending. Do you mean to appear that way?


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
I already answered this. I would have NO problem if a child snatched a toy from my child and wouldnt give it back.

"what do you do if a kid takes a toy from your child and the other parent comforts and then cajoles your child to let hers keep it?"
While I don't think this is right, and this is NOT what I would do, I would redirect my child and tell my child that it's not fair when someone snatched a toy from us, and the right thing to do is give it back. Then I would help them find something else to do.

I think what you and I do is pretty similar actually, but I have taken the toy from my child maybe once or twice in her life and returned it to the other child. I think that if you have *ever* taken the toy back, or picked them up and carried them out of the room, it does establish for your child that you mean what you say, and waiting you out is not a possible solution. I also think it's important for both children to hear something like "We'll return your toy" right up front at the beginning of the altercation.

I also don't entertain proposed solutions like "I want to borrow it and take it home." I would say "Borrowing is when you ask your friend BEFORE you take the toy. You need to give that back now." As opposed to the family I'm thinking of, who then turned to my DD and tried to convince her to let the friend snatcher "borrow" the toy. I jumped in at that point, and said no, and laid out what borrowing is and that that would NOT be borrowing. I promised my DD we'd get her toy back, and I took her to do something else. I ended up scooping up the toy when the kid finally set it down having discovered it wasn't a source of attention-getting anymore. Like I said, we don't play with them anymore.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I read the article, and this part,

Quote:

"I won't grab that truck back from you because grabbing is very unkind. But I sure do wish you would give it back and ask for a turn instead."
This, to me, actually feels kind of manipulative and shaming. I tend to be pretty straightforward with my kids, and not use guilt as a teaching tool much.

If one of my kids snatches a toy form the other, I go to the snatcher and tell them that if they want a turn with a toy they need to wait until the other kid is done, and that they need to give the toy back so the other kid can finish their turn. If they don't give it back themselves, I will do it for them...but it's hardly me "snatching" it out of their hands. I tell the child if they can't give it back themself, I will do it for them, so it's not as if I'm walking up to them and snatching it out of their hand like they did to the original child. I'm talking to them, I'm calm, and I'm giving them the information and opportunity to give the toy back for the other child to finish playing with it. And I'll help find the snatcher something else to do while they wait their turn.

This for me falls under the "developmentally appropriate isn't socially appropriate", and something that I need to correct - just like many other developmentally appropriate but undesireable behaviors. I just can't see the positive in allowing a child that has snatched a toy from another getting to keep the toy. And while I agree that a parent hastily grabbing the toy and giving it back to the kid probably isn't the best solution, a parent talking to and calmly removing the toy from the snatcher and returning it to the original child, even if it upsets the snatcher, just doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ccohenou* 
If someone steals from me, requiring/forcing them to give it back is not an equally unjust act of stealing from the stealer.

I understand what you are saying here, but to me physically snatching the toy back from the snatcher is kind of like like spanking for hitting. Now I'm not saying anyone who chooses to resolve things like that is abusive or that it is akin to hitting your child. I'm just saying that to me it just doesn't make sense to handle things like that because I'd be doing the same thing I'd be telling my kid not to do.

Anyway, maybe I've just been lucky which is entirely possible, but I've always been able to resolve things without snatching a toy back (I hope I didn't just jinx myself). I can imagine that there might just be times when a toy has to be taken from a child, but as a general rule, it's not how I choose to handle things.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom* 
I think what you and I do is pretty similar actually, but I have taken the toy from my child maybe once or twice in her life and returned it to the other child. I think that if you have *ever* taken the toy back, or picked them up and carried them out of the room, it does establish for your child that you mean what you say, and waiting you out is not a possible solution. I also think it's important for both children to hear something like "We'll return your toy" right up front at the beginning of the altercation.

I also don't entertain proposed solutions like "I want to borrow it and take it home." I would say "Borrowing is when you ask your friend BEFORE you take the toy. You need to give that back now." As opposed to the family I'm thinking of, who then turned to my DD and tried to convince her to let the friend snatcher "borrow" the toy. I jumped in at that point, and said no, and laid out what borrowing is and that that would NOT be borrowing. I promised my DD we'd get her toy back, and I took her to do something else. I ended up scooping up the toy when the kid finally set it down having discovered it wasn't a source of attention-getting anymore. Like I said, we don't play with them anymore.

I agree, if my child asked to borrow in a way that is not borrowing I would let them know, "that is not what borrowing is. borrowing is ...." in general I like to avoid borrowing altogether. I agree, its good for both children to here that the other child IS going to get their toy back. Thats one thing that helped me when my friend visited. he brought some toys with him, and we reassured him frequently "those are still YOUR toys and you will be bringing them home with you" and when they werent his toys we told him "those toys actually belong to (my kids names) but you can play with them while you visit" (and in those scenarios told vice versa to my children - "thats his toy and he will be bringing it home with him" and "those are your toys, but he is playing with them while he visits") However, I dont find it manipulative or shaming to let a child know if their actions are unkind and what a kind action looks like. I call that teaching. I think its good to tell a child how you feel as well. I tell my children when I dont liek something they do, they tell me when they dont like something I do, they tell eachother when they dont like things eachother do. its not shaming or manipulation its sharing your insight and feelings with the child, which helps them understand on deeper level how their actions effect others.

For me I would rather say "its unkind to snatch a toy, so I won't snatch the toy back, but I would like you to return it" then to snatch the toy back sending the message "snatching is okay if a bigger person does it" or "snatching is okay if you snatched first". I don't see how in there the child learns snatching is unkind - unless the goal is to teach its unkind by doing it to your child so they can see what it feels like, which I think is a terrible approach and I don't think that is what anyone here is doing, at least not intentionally.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I read the article, and this part,

This, to me, actually feels kind of manipulative and shaming. I tend to be pretty straightforward with my kids, and not use guilt as a teaching tool much.

If one of my kids snatches a toy form the other, I go to the snatcher and tell them that if they want a turn with a toy they need to wait until the other kid is done, and that they need to give the toy back so the other kid can finish their turn. If they don't give it back themselves, I will do it for them...but it's hardly me "snatching" it out of their hands. I tell the child if they can't give it back themself, I will do it for them, so it's not as if I'm walking up to them and snatching it out of their hand like they did to the original child. I'm talking to them, I'm calm, and I'm giving them the information and opportunity to give the toy back for the other child to finish playing with it. And I'll help find the snatcher something else to do while they wait their turn.

This for me falls under the "developmentally appropriate isn't socially appropriate", and something that I need to correct - just like many other developmentally appropriate but undesireable behaviors. I just can't see the positive in allowing a child that has snatched a toy from another getting to keep the toy. And while I agree that a parent hastily grabbing the toy and giving it back to the kid probably isn't the best solution, a parent talking to and calmly removing the toy from the snatcher and returning it to the original child, even if it upsets the snatcher, just doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.

it's not about whether or not the snatcher gets upset. I personally don't use the exact phrases used in the article, but I do use the concept now. One thing I would do if necessary, is get down on the childs level and ask if they would like to give the toy back to the child, or give it to me to return the child. HOWEVER I really dont like to do that because I want my _children_ to be the ones who do the right thing. Whether you take the toy and give it back for them, or get down and give them the option of giving it to you to give back, you are taking away from the situation. I would'nt mind doing this if we are leaving and the child still hasn't released the toy - but we haven't had that problem yet.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I understand what you are saying here, but to me physically snatching the toy back from the snatcher is kind of like like spanking for hitting. Now I'm not saying anyone who chooses to resolve things like that is abusive or that it is akin to hitting your child. I'm just saying that to me it just doesn't make sense to handle things like that because I'd be doing the same thing I'd be telling my kid not to do.

Anyway, maybe I've just been lucky which is entirely possible, but I've always been able to resolve things without snatching a toy back (I hope I didn't just jinx myself). I can imagine that there might just be times when a toy has to be taken from a child, but as a general rule, it's not how I choose to handle things.











I think some people are apprehensive of talking to children, like they have to DO something TO the child to get the child to listen. No one forced me to learn to read, learn to talk, learn to walk, learn to eat, learn to love, etc. I learned these things through modeling and through people explaining how it works, and through exposure. Children can learn really anything in this way, but most people aren't ready to accept that concept. Not to say parenting should be "hands off" of course you need to guide and protect your child, sometimes by holding their hand (physically) or picking them up or moving them somewhere safe etc... but so much parenting is done by unnecessary force instead of gentle guidance... I was that person in retrospect. I wouldn't say I wasn't a gentle mother then, I just realize now how I was trying to control my children instead of teach them to control themselves. we've seen HUGE changes in a short amount of time lately. Catch more flies with honey... it's amazing how even some of the most gentle parents still fail to see children as equal. Like me... I always said children deserved the same respect, but I don't think I ever saw the bigger picture this clearly until recently. I am thankful I figured this out while my children were still young... its such an amazing place to be.


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## mrsfatty (Dec 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2* 
ITA.

We did not do forced sharing. You do not, IMO, need to "share" your possessions ahead of your own needs/wants. But I would also not tolerate stealing from another child.

Now, when we had guests I made it clear to my kids that they needed to share their possessions, as in if toys were out they were open for guests to use to. If they had something they did not want to share (or even several somethings) they needed to be put away before the guests came over. BUT, if my kids were using a specific item while their friends were there, they did not need to give it over (they just couldn't have a huge pile they were "using", kwim).

I don't remember ever wresting an item out of my child's hands while at playgroup or anything like that with our rules (just requesting the snatcher return the item and verbally request a turn, or if a younger child verbally request a turn for them (that turn, of course, was not forced on the child with the toy but was usually fairly soon)).

While I agree with kids working things out on their own once they are verbal and a little older (and after many, many situations with help) I do not agree about letting kids "working it out" when there is an obviously skewed dynamic (one child much older/larger/forceful/whatever).

I really appreciated what you said--especially the part about age-appropriateness and skewed dynamics. Thanks for your input!


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

The mom of the 2 y.o. in question gently told him Lina wasn't done with the ball yet and to please give it back to her and would he like to play with other toy? And a few minutes later when Lina turned to a new thing, I let him know he could have the ball and he took it and thanked me.

I daresay some kids'll need to have feelings of frustration acknowledged, and others will do better with a time frame. And with older kids, like if it were a 3yo and a 2yo, ask if they can think of a game to play together.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

thats basically what they do in the article I posted - however ultimately if the child doesnt leave the toy or the room or give it back the people in the article dont grab it back, they console the other child.
I think what this approach teaches the child who had the toy taken is that bigger kids can take things from you and you just have to put up with it.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

really?? because my daughter was more of a snatcher then my son and she is smaller and younger...

it would seem that is NOT what my children learned from that method. They have learned that snatching is NEVER okay - not even if a bigger person (adult) does it. They have learned that its never too late to do the right thing. They have learned that sometimes another person does the wrong thing, but that our lives are still good. (these days, everyone blames their unhappiness on everyone else)

either way, they are great at not snatching anymore, thanks to a new insight! The people who force their kids to share always ask what I have done to get my children to share so nicely, and are always surprised that I didn't force my kids to share and say "that wouldn't work with my kids" they probably think I'm nuts, I realize its a concept that is very hard for some people to receive if they aren't "there" yet. It works though, and its as respectful as it gets. It seems most people would try ANYTHING to get their kids to share, except for treating their children the way they want their children to treat their playmates.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I was thinking about this a lot last night, and came up with a few more thoughts.

I guess I just see a difference between sharing and snatching. I don't force my kids to share. If someone is playing with something, they are playing with it and they don't have to let the other person have a turn until they're completely done with it. That, to me, is sharing. And is how sharing in the adult world works, as well. I'm using something, someone asks me if they can use it, I say when I'm done, and allow them to have it after I've finished.

IMO snatching/grabbing has NOTHING to do with sharing...and further, IMO when a snatcher isn't compelled to give something back, it IS forcing sharing on the original child...they didn't *want* to give the item to the snatcher, the snatcher took it without requesting, and without their consent...that's forced sharing if I ever heard of it, especially if they aren't compelled to give it back.

I'm not saying that a parent should go after a snatcher, wrest the item from them while hissing at them that it's not nice to grab things and shove it back to the original child. That's not cool, either. But a thoughtful conversation about asking and waiting your turn, and explaining that the item needs to be returned to the original child either by themself or with help from mom, I just see that as much of the learning process as stopping a child from hitting, or budging in line, or biting, or anything else like that. To me, it's the same as when my kid won't stop doing something else physically harmful.....if I cannot get them to stop with words, I will get them to stop with gentle, but firm, actions accompanying the words. That doesn't mean I'm smacking their hands if they're hitting or biting them back if they're biting. But it does mean that I will in the end [gently] stop the behavior if they cannot stop it themselves.

**One more point. If my child is the original child (the snatchee), and the other parent is not compelling the snatcher to give the toy back, I will not do so either. *That* is when I take the opportunity to (quietly, because I'm also not about passive-aggressively humiliating the other kid/mom) talk to my kid about sometimes things happen and you can't control other peoples actions, that two wrongs don't make a right, and remind them that the feeling they have right now is the feeling that soemone else has when they take soemthing without asking, etc. etc. I would never compel another person's child to give something back at a playdate (unless it was our house and they were tryign to leave with the item). BUT - if it's my kid doing the snatching, I will gently but firmly compel them to give the item back and wait for the other child to finish their turn.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
I realize its a concept that is very hard for some people to receive if they aren't "there" yet. It works though, and its as respectful as it gets. It seems most people would try ANYTHING to get their kids to share, except for treating their children the way they want their children to treat their playmates.


You've mentioned being "there" a couple times in this thread. My oldest is 8, and I've been "there" and back again.

IME, toddler snatching is a short phase not matter what the reasonable parenting approach (and, as other poster's have mentioned, has little to do with sharing). I agree that your approach is respectful, and understand that you've found it to be successful.

But I would argue that it is not the only, or even the most, respectful approach for all children and situations. One thing I've learned from my dd is that the kindest, gentlest, most respectful thing I can do for her is to make and enforce a decision in an emotionally charged situation (when discussion is clearly making things worse), and then pick up the discussion later in a calmer moment. It took _me_ a long time to understand _her_. Ds is completely different, and seems to thrive with a more democratic parenting approach.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Another couple thoughts re: "forced sharing" scenarios. I remember when my kids were young toddlers and I would take them to library lapsit time, they would have free play time with community toys for half an hour after. There is where I saw the froced sharing many are talking about here. Child A has a toy, Child B walks up and wants it, but child A doesn't want to give it up. Mom A forces child A to give it up before they're ready in the name of "sharing". That is not cool, and I did not do that. If K wanted a toy another kid had, I'd say we had to wait until they wer done playing with it - 9 times out of 10 the mom was trying to pry the toy out of their kid's hand, and I would say, "It's OK, they're not done with their turn yet, we'll find something else to play with until you're done." or if a child was trying to take a toy from K I would say, "She's not done with her turn yet, but as soon as she is you can have a turn to play with this!" and the mom would kind of take the hint and go find something else for the kid to play with.

THAT kind of scenario is the forced sharing scenarios I can understand finding awkward and I don't agree with compelling a child who is playing with something to hand it over to someone else before they're done with it. I am *totally* with you all on that point.

HOWEVER. I see snatching as a competely different thing. A thing where forced sharing is being forcibly put upon the original child by the snatcher. And that is why I will gently, but firmly compel my child, after a brief conversation, to give back a snatched item and wait their turn for it. For me it's more about aggression and impulse control than the item, and I teach my children about aggression and impulse control every time, no matter their age. Gently, but firmly, every time. They don't get a pass because it's age appropriate. I won't punish them for it *because* it's age appropriate (I am about 98% nonpunitive anyway), but I also will not let it go unresolved (as in, the original child gets their toy back if my child snatched it). I don't force apologies, I don't force manners, and I don't force sharing. But *I* will be polite, I will be gracious, and I will return the snatched item if my child is developmentally unable to at that stage in their life.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

my kids don't get a pass because its age appropriate either, we just have a different approach then you, and this approach works for my children and since using this approach my children have gone from being the snatchers to not. Where As my friend feels kids MUSN'T snatch and "No I CANT let him do that. He HAS to learn" well, my children learned a LOT faster when I wasn't snatching things back. sunmama I here what you are saying but I think you need to be "there" to be willing to try this approach. not that it's the only right way, but it is the right way for some children - it is the way that teaches some children not to snatch in the fastest way possible (such as my 2 kids) and some kids do NOT respond to the "forceful toy return" approach - but some parents are just not "there" as in they can't see the logic in my approach and even though their approach is not working they are unwilling to try my approach even though they see my approach is working. Which is fine, except that the forceful return approach, which may work for some children, tends to create discomfort for my children when they are around it, and understandably so. I think the place you and I are talking about are different though... I can't imagine coming "back" from "here" right now, its a shift in thinking - not an ABC process - its a new level of understanding - I don't imagine I could erase it anytime in the future - I'd have to somehow forget what I have realized - it would be like learning that something is poisonous and then taking it - once you know its poisonous there is no turning back, even if its something you took in the past and were lucky enough to not have a bad reaction to. I'm sure some of the members here know what I am really talking about... going "back again" just wouldn't make sense, unless I changed my goals to being me controlling my children, not me encouraging my children to control themselves... and that has never been my goal, I just didn't have a full understanding of things until I got "here" ("there") lol - confused yet?







Maybe when my kids are 8 I'll understand you or something, about being there and back again... I get it you have more "experience" kind of like how my mom had more experience, and yet, I've been to where she's been, and despite what she has said with all her "experience" my ways continue to work better with my kids then her ways worked with her kids growing up. She has that "you'll see" attitude, and so far, all I have seen is my own beliefs being clarified. She doesn't see my way because she is unable to open her mind to it. No matter how well things work out, in her mind the theory is all wrong. I can say I know I will NEVER see it her way. no amount of experience will help me see it her way. If my way of thinking changed I could see it her way, if her way of thinking changed she could see it my way. But IMO its not about "experience" in the sense of "my child is older then yours" or "I have been doing this longer" (not saying you were implying that) but its more so about the way your thinking and mind set has evolved. I may learn more in 5 years of parenting them my mom has learned in her 24 years of parenting. and someone may learn more in 1 year then I learn in 5. The "there" I am talking about is not a place you can "been there and back" about. if you've been here, you only go forward, not back. This is my walk in life, and I respect if yours is different, I just don't feel that *my* "there" is the same "there" that *you* "came back" from.

"I also will not let it go unresolved (as in, the original child gets their toy back if my child snatched it)"
I also don't let it go unresolved, I just resolve it in another way


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I think the feeling of the "there" you're referring to is a more consensual approach, which is fine, but not all of us are interested in being consensual, and non-consensual GD parenting is very much still GD parenting...it just feels like the "there" you're referring to is a loftier, better place than where the rest of us are, and I think that's what some of us are taking exception to. I don't really have a desire to go "there", because I don't feel like I have a need to "control" my child. I'm guiding my children, and teaching them, and sometimes to me that means I compel them to do things they don't want to do at that moment in time..because of what I believe about them developmentally, I don't have a problem with that, and I'm not looking to change it - but our lives are pretty consensual and without much authoritarian dictating on my part. We have a lot of mutual solutions, but not every solution is mutual...and I'm OK with that. That doesn't make it any less GD, as there is a wide spectrum of what GD is, not just consensual living. Living consensually is one way to live GD, but not the only way, and it feels in your posts on this thread as though you feel like those of us who aren't "there" aren't as enlightened.

Or, maybe I'm just speaking for myself. I do like a lot of your posts in this forum, for sure...I jsut take exception to your definition and esteem of "there".


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

SGM, I didn't intend it to be about "I've parented longer and I know better", but just reflecting on _my_ experience with my (admittedly atypical) dc. It is a long story, but I had to let go of some of the theoretical parenting ideals I held when dd was younger in order for my child to feel safe and happy--with the accompanying safe and happy behaviors. It wasn't easy for me, and we kind of had to hit rock bottom before I was willing to admit that my approach was just not working for dd and she needed me to take more control.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

I think the feeling of the "there" you're referring to is a more consensual approach,
Yes, which is why I can't even begin to debate that kind of approach, because it is a very fundamental difference in the understanding of human rights and nature from the one we use in our family. But I do agree that it can come across as very condescending, although I'm sure that was not SGM's intent.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

no the there I am referring to is a better place then where *I* _was_. I am not saying that my old way (or your current way) is not GD. The "there" I am talking about is yes, a place one is "mentally" however the approach I am talking about is one that any parent can use, consensual or not. I understand that most people who are not consensual would not be willing to try that approach, and I understand why. My point is that even if you aren't "there" (the understanding) that does not mean that that approach to snatching toys wouldn't work with your child, though most people aren't willing to try even if their approach isnt working because they don't agree with the "theory" behind it. It also doesn't mean I am doing "nothing". I choose not to be offended by those insinuations though, as I understand that those who are not where I am are where I used to be (gentle, but not consensual) and that when I was at that point in my parenting journey I thought such an approach as what I use now is "permissive" and basically, everything you are all saying are the same things I would have said a year ago. I am sorry if anyone was unable to understand where I was coming from, or if anyone assumed that I meant their way is not gentle. It's not that I dont think its gentle, its that I used to do it that way and now I do it this way, it's not something I think I'm going to "come back from" because yes what took place for *ME* was enlightenment. Does it mean I am more enlightened then you? no. I never said that. It means I am more enlightened then *I* WAS when I was thinking similarly in the past. I'm not saying your way isn't gentle, I'm just saying my way isn't permissive. I am saying that in my experience, what I am doing has led my children to stop snatching toys - and that those who snatch back from their children I notice (ans speaking ONLY of people I have encountered in real life) continue to struggle with children who snatch toys and that I sense a tension among _the children_ when the other parent takes that approach. They are unwilling to take my approach, because its coming from a consensual "theory", even if it WOULD work for their child. To me, that is a control issue - to be unwilling to use a consensual approach to something if it would give you results, simply because the approach is consensual. In no way am I saying that is what anyone here is doing, or that is why anyone here wouldnt try that approach - talkign only about people in real life that I know.

sunnmama I am sorry you have those kind of struggles and coldnt find another way to overcome them. I am sure you will find a way to help your daughter find more control of herself as she gets older and need you less to control her for her to be happy. That must be hard on both of you (hugs)

I understand that some will continue a method that doesn't work because it supports their beliefs. Like a parent who keeps physically making the child return the toy they snatched, even if their child continues to be a mega snatcher. I only tried this method out of desperation, and I think I was only even willing to try because I'd been moving more and more towards consensual - though I think many parents are more consensual then me and I couldn't really call our lifestyle CL at this point. I tried it though, and the snatching rapidly decreased to almost nothing. A lot of things in our lives have changed as I've become more open to consensual "approaches" (still not really CL, we'll see if I ever get _there_ lol) Whether or not what I'm doing is permissive never comes up, because my kids aren't the snatchers anymore, however I know most people who ask what I am doing think my theories are too permissive for their taste. thats okay. their kids keep snatching from my kids - my kids can handle it, so I don't mind, but like I said, my kids seem to get very awkward when the other parent uses that approach and then they don't want the toy back... I guess it makes the parent feel better because in their eyes they "did" something. They just wouldn't feel "right" using my approach because they wouldn't *feel* like they DID something. I understand why they feel that way. I just wish they could put that aside and figure out what is actually going to WORK so our kids can play together without feeling awkward - but that is a part of life too, so I see it all as a learning experience for my children.

I think in general, my kids just like playing with each other more these days (which FLOORS me - not to long ago the sibling rivalry was unbearable! so I really appreciate our new approach!) but I find they feel more uncomfortable playing with kids who parents take the approach I used to use, and all the children seem tense when the issue occurs, and it continues to happen again and again and again with no resolution, that I feel could easily be resolved if the parent was willing to try something new. They ask what I did. They want to know. They want the same results. But they don't want to use the same approach, like I said though, I can't blame them. I can understand now how I must have driven some of my friends nuts in the past when they were trying to explain this very thing to me that I am explaining here haha - I find myself laughing at myself a lot lately. MY old approach wasn't bad. It wasn't that I wasn't gentle by any means. I just found something that works for my family - the part that is funny to me is its something I knew about well over a year ago and I just thought the people suggesting it were wrong, it would never work for *my* children, the approach was permissive, I *have* to do something, its my responsibility as a parent to do something etc - and the whole time they were telling me that they WERE doing something. I totally didn't get it then. Now I'm on the other side of things and I guess I need to find the grace they had when talking to me - to just be okay with me thinking their approach was permissive even though it wasn't. To just be happy that they didn't have the same problems I was having because they were willing to use another approach that I wasn't yet willing to use. For *me* it was a control issue. Kids have to learn to "obey" us. I have such a deeper understanding of things now, I guess I am just eager for others to get to experience the same joy and insight, but I have to remember nothing anyone could have said could have forced me to "get it" until I was ready.

So I'm just throwing it out there. I'm just saying, even if you don't agree with CL, this consensual approach to snatching toys DID work for my kids, it didn't teach *my* kids the bad things you worry it may teach *your* kids, but that the other approaches suggested here ARE still gentle, I don't think otherwise. I'm throwing it out there in case someone like me is out there, who might have a small part of them thinking "maybe _that's_ not a bad idea" even though the way bigger part's "common sense" is telling them that wouldn't work. so maybe one day someone like me but be desperate enough to try this approach, and maybe they will see results too, and they will know that it's not some silly way of thinking, its a gift to your child, yourself, your family. I feel like the parents in Liberated Parents, Liberated Children - who keep trying new things and thinking it was like magic. They couldn't believe "that" actually worked! it sounds like a fairy tale - too good to be true. It's neat when it falls into place.

Off my soap box now. I hope I made it clear that 1) I am only talking about where *I* was versus where *I* am now 2) I do think other approaches are gentle 3) I am doing something, and it does work and 4) I am speaking only from my experience in real life, not about anyone here, who my children have never had a play date with.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

SGM, I feel like I want to apologize too, because I *know* CL isn't necessarily permissive, even though I was intimating it in my post with "resolving" and "not getting a pass".

I guess the vibe I get off of CL positions sometimes is one of 'if only you *understood* it the way I do, you'd get it.'...but I do understand CL, I just choose to not practice it, because it doesn't mesh some of the values I hold (and those values do *not* include my children obeying me, FWIW...I'm not terribly interested in blind obedience, and if you saw me and my kids, you'd get that pretty quickly...







). It always seems to roll around on threads that the CL solution is because of a deeper understanding or deeper connection or something, and I just don't agree with that. I think it has more to do with differing philosophies and beliefs about child development and life in general, not about a *deeper* understanding of those things. It's that "deeper" that gets thrown in there that makes it come across as condescending. Just because someone draws different conclusions in their parenting path doesn't mean that they aren't as deeply thinking or connecting with their kids. CL is not the enlightenment end point of a GD parenting path.

So my apologies for intimating that CL = permissive, because I know that's not always the case. Just like non-CL does not always = controlling.

And also for whatever it's worth, my children (especially my DS) as toddlers tended to be the snatchees in situations at playdates, and not the snatchers. Not that they've never snatched, and not that they never will again, but more frequently they were snatched from than snatched from others.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I understand what you are saying. I dont think that non-CL means controlling, just for me I noticed that I didnt notice I was being controlling until I fully understood CL. and I thought I got it a year ago, but now I am realizing it on a different level then before, and I don't think I totally get it yet - I am just now realizing that I didnt get it when I thought I did. not to say *you* don't get it. talking about *me*. I could have typed your post a year ago though, so I do get where you are coming from. However perhaps you truly do understand where I am coming from, and a year ago I would not have, which is where we may differ. Though its hard to say you understand what I understand and just draw different conclusions. you couldn't possibly know what _I_understand, and therefore, you can't possibly know that if you knew what I knew (which you think you do, but there is no way for either of us to know that, since I also cant possibly understand what you understand either) that you might not come to the same conclusion I did. You very well miught think the same as I do if you truly understood what I understood. Or you may not. but you can't *know* that since you can't *know* what I understand unless you are me. So, you feel that you totally 100% get CL on the same level that I do, but at the same time, since you aren't me, I feel that can't be true, at least that we can't know it is. And at the same time, since I'm not you, even if you DID get it, I can't know that you would feel the same as I do. I can only speak for how I feel though, and I honestly don't think it would be possible to understand it on the level I do and still think its okay to snatch the toy back. And, there are probably true CL mama's out there who feel that there are things that I do that I can't possibly understand CL fully or I wouldn't do some of the things I do. And I think they are probably right. I hope to evolve to that higher understanding one day as well. But if I don't where I am at right now is good too, and so is where you are at. We're all wonderful gentle mama's - no one here is "better" then anyone or more "enlightened" then anyone.

A year ago, heck even 3 months ago, I did not think I was controlling. I would have scoffed at such sentiment. speaking for me, TRULY understanding CL led me to see ways that I was being controlling without realizing it - even OTHERS didn't see it as me being controlling. (and of course, maybe you do truly understand it the way I do, but since I am not you and you are not me, there is no way to know if you understand CL on the level that I do - and since I only have personal experience to go off of, I really don't see it possible that you do understand it this way.) I don't think its condescending, since I don't think it is any "less" or "bad" etc. It is what it is.

"CL is not the enlightenment end point of a GD parenting path."

there is no enlightment end point of a GD parenting path. CL is a whole new path in itself, I feel if you understood CL to the extent I do that you would not have made a statement like this. That being said, I don't think acheiving CL is the "highest" point or anything either. And I don't think I have embraced CL fully either, and I dont know if I ever will. I do think that for *me* being CL is the best way to be. For *me* it's a good thing to aspire towards. and for *me* its the "ultimate" freedom - but not an end point... more of a new beginning and and on going journey.

I find I am enjoying parenting and my children in a whole new way now, that never would have been possible without trying some of these CL approaches. This is all speaking for ME and MY family. OF course I would love to share this with others, but that's not practical. I can't make anyone understand it the way I do. CL looks different for every family. And its something that shifts inside of a person. You can't understand it without that shift, and if you had that shift you would think differently, which is why it is hard for me to accept that you understand it the way I do. I had a shift in thinking, you obviously didn't - which is OKAY too, it doesn't mean anything bad or anything like that, its just _different_. I would love others to have that shift, but that is not something you can help someone have, its something that happens on their own. I believe, it probably happens for them when it is right for their family. It hasnt happened for you because it isnt right for your family, at least not at this time - and it may never be right for your family. Maybe you understand what CL is, but I don't think you understand it in the same way as someone who had a shift in thinking does - because the shift IS what makes you embrace CL. I think its hard to understand CL in the same way you embraces it does, because understanding _in that way_ and embracing it, kind of happens at the same time. Like an epiphany. IDK why I'm trying to explain it lol. you think you understand, and at the same way if you didn't understand there is no way to really explain it. At least not in a way I can put into words. the best I think I can do is to say that its not a matter of if you understand you would "go there" but more so though if you get there you would understand. (and by understand I mean understand in the way someone who got there understood it, not understand in the sense of knowing what CL is or knowing what it means, etc - kind of like understanding the beauty of a place like Rome - you can think you understand from pictures but its a whole new understanding to be there in person - though some people have no desire to do, and perhaps some people get there and think its not all its cracked up to be - but yet the fact remains the people who WENT THERE are the ones who really understand what its like, in a different way then the people who know about it or have only seen pictures.)

When I say understanding it the way I do, I mean the way someone who has the shift understands it. The shift is embracing CL an CL is embracing the shift. I probably make no sense to you. I don't want to tell you what you understand, but I am just saying you may understand what CL is, but *I* don't understand how someone can understand it *the way I do* without the shift - and the shift is CL, so you didn't have that shift. Again, doesn't mean anything bad or less - its just not right for you at this time, and it may not be right for you ever, and you should do WHAT IS RIGHT FOR YOU. I think we can agree there?


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
however ultimately if the child doesnt leave the toy or the room or give it back the people in the article dont grab it back, they console the other child.

I haven't read the other replies, but this made my jaw drop to the floor!


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

The people who force their kids to share always ask what I have done to get my children to share so nicely, and are always surprised that I didn't force my kids to share and say "that wouldn't work with my kids" they probably think I'm nuts
I don't force my children to share either, but I also don't let them grab toys from someone who's playing with them.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
I don't force my children to share either, but I also don't let them grab toys from someone who's playing with them.

True for me, too. Although I don't think anyone here is saying that they "let" their dc grab toys. But I get what you are saying.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
sunnmama I am sorry you have those kind of struggles and coldnt find another way to overcome them. I am sure you will find a way to help your daughter find more control of herself as she gets older and need you less to control her for her to be happy. That must be hard on both of you (hugs)

We did have BIG struggles, but I am very comfortable with the way we've found to overcome them. I, too, am sure that she will grow in ability to handle life on her own as she matures into adulthood. We all did, right? She is still just a young child


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
True for me, too. Although I don't think anyone here is saying that they "let" their dc grab toys. But I get what you are saying.

exactly - which brings up another point - with children at a younger as, such as my own, I tend to be more hand on in the sense that we do activities, or I will have a toy I am sharing with them, instead of expecting them to share a toy with each other. and of course, preventing a toy being snatched in the first place can be very beneficial









Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
We did have BIG struggles, but I am very comfortable with the way we've found to overcome them. I, too, am sure that she will grow in ability to handle life on her own as she matures into adulthood. We all did, right? She is still just a young child









I can understand, truly. My son's special needs can be overwhelming at times. I think this is why I cannot embrace CL in the way I would like to yet. I wouldn't say its not possible, I think I am just "missing" something. We deal with some severe sensory issues, and by severe I mean if you so much as touch him light he will scream that you hurt him (like if you caress his hair when he doesnt want you to, though sometimes he likes that and it calms him) or bath time - yikes - we definitely do not have a consensual approach to this because he would just not bath. So I told him he only has to take a bath twice a week and wash his hair once a week. but that seems to be worse then when we make him bath daily, so I need to reevaluate this. He screams the entire time, his arms and legs even turn red. Afterward he is calm, and stares out the window humming. This is very upsetting to me. I hate that I am "forcing" him to take a bath. I know in some ways this is a control I have not let go of, but in other ways I do see it as a health/hygiene issue. while true CL mama's may think I shouldn't push it, at the same time it is my son's needs that sometimes the more sensory input he receives the more complaint he is with these things, but at the same time, he hates the sensory input. where does that leave me? anyway, I just want to say I hear you on the big struggles. I don't consider myself really CL yet - but I have had the shift that has be headed in that direction. I am trying to let go of saying things "arent possible" with my son. instead of saying "that wont work" I say "is there a way this could work" but there is a place in between -which is where I am - where I just haven't found the way it can work yet.

So, nothing I am saying here is coming from a "better than" place. I am not really CL, and I am sure other CL mama's understand some things in ways I do not yet or may never. I dont think that makes me less then them, or that my current place makes me more then someone else. It just makes me more then where I was, and less then where I'm headed.

All I've been saying here is, to be open to the idea that a child can learn, sometimes more quickly, that snatching is not okay even when the parent does not use a forceful return approach. To say that parent is lucky their children learned not to snatch is unfair. To say that parent is permissive is unfair. To say that parent is doing nothing is unfair. And that approach may not have fast results for some kids - but neither would forcing them to give the toy back. We are all doing something and teaching our children in our own way (Speaking of the ladies here) yes there are some people who "do nothing" but those who takes a consensual approach are not doing nothing, they are doing it differently. Their children are learning that its not okay to snatch. And at the same time, I can understand why some people are unable to accept this concept on snatching. That's all I really mean by my being there. That I had that shift that enables me to see things differently, in a way that you can only see things AFTER you had the shift. it's not meant as an insult in any way.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
I hate that I am "forcing" him to take a bath. I know in some ways this is a control I have not let go of, but in other ways I do see it as a health/hygiene issue.

Ah, see - I think another major philosophical difference is that embracing CL usually means that control is inherently bad and to be avoided...which I do not personally believe...which is why I have no desire to shift to living consensually...

In the situation above, I don't believe it's a control you haven't let go of to compel your child to bathe twice a week and wash his hair once a week. I believe it's being a caring parent who is making sure that their child is staying healthy/hygienic. Because he is upset by it, IMO, is not a reason to NOT do it....avoiding upset is not a prerequisite of my parenting views. I do not deliberately *try* to make my kids upset, or go out of my way to do things that I know will upset them, nor do I derive any joy whatsoever when I do things that upset them (I too would hate forcing my child to take a bath if it upset them so much, but I would not see it as a personal failing of mine to come up with another solution)...however...I believe that they have the strength and ability to process and work through and come out the other side of upsets, and in fact I believe it is an important skill to learn...again, not that I go out of my way to bring about opportunities to teach this lesson, but I also do not try to avoid it at all costs.

I think herein lies the major divide in philosophy - I do not believe upset/dissatisfaction is to always be avoided/mitigated/solutioned out. I don't believe upset needs to be purposely manufactured or rubbed in to "teach" a child anything (and in fact I _do_ believe in empathizing and validating a child's upset and not punishing them for being upset), but I don't believe it is a flaw in a parent needing 'control' if they do something that happens to upset their child.

So, it will clearly be an agree to disagree kind of thing.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I was thinking again last night







and remembered that a couple years ago when I was striving for a more CL household, I *was* taking it sort of personally as my fault when things weren't going very CL....I've been poking around here on the GD boards since 2005 and have learned a great deal from the CL mamas (especially WuWei







) about different situations...and I do often think, "WWCLD?"







It's just not a deal breaker for me if we can't find a mutual solution, _and_ I'm OK myself about it, too. But I do derive inspiration from CL ways of life and solutions sometimes, *when* they jive with other philosophies I embrace.

So anyway....just a little about my own journey.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

this is why we are not really CL either. It's a very tough situation for us with his sensory issues, and while I am okay with upset, I would naturally prefer to find a mutually agreeable resolution when possible. and some things I have to "let go"... We have limits and boundaries of course - so of course my children get upset, and we validate but don't punish. There are some things though that *I* can't let go, some may see the bathing issue as one of them, and some may see that as a reasonable boundary. At this time its a reasonable boundary in my house, but what has happened with my shift in thinking is that instead of thinking "he will just be upset about it, it has to be done, and thats okay" I think more along the lines of "is there any way we can make this work that everyone agrees with?"

Maybe some people choose to make the shift to CL or not, but I dont think unless the shift takes place in the mind does the shift to CL occur naturally.

I hear what you are saying though - you use CL solutions, anyone can use a CL solution whether that had that paradigm shift or not.

but yes, I do not desire to control my children. In the past I didn't think control was a bad thing. Understanding CL to mean that control is bad is different from having a paradigm shift that in turn you then understand why control is not best.

So for me I would say you didnt choose a CL path (though you use some solutions) because you do not see control as a bad thing. But if you had the "CL paradigm shift" you would see control differently - I don't know if bad is necessarily the right word. So I just think its hard for someone to say they understand CL on the same level as someone who practice CL - because the person who is practicing it had a change in THINKING that resulted in a change of lifestyle - they didnt just choose to change their lifestyle because it sounded good to them before that shift in thinking. You, admittedly, did not have that paradigm shift, and again, I don't think that is a bad thing, it just means you understand it differently.

I feel like that shift doesn't take place unless its the right time in someones life to take place. This is my personal thinking, not a CL-popular thought. Like I think the shift in thinking happens to the people its supposed to happen to, and that the changes take place in the families its supposed to. IE: this is whats best for my family - but if CL was best for your family it wouldn't be a shift you chose to make, it would be a shift that happened which led you to follow another direction in life. What is happening in your family right now is what needs to happen for your family to get to wherever it is they are supposed to be.


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## LaurenS (Aug 7, 2003)

sorry


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