# I've reached my GD/UP limit. (bc of chronic aggression twd baby sib!)



## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

That's it. I am DONE. I am officially no longer trying to be Alfie Kohn. At least when it comes to my 4yo's *chronic* abuse of his baby bro. And I think I've had an epiphany about it. I have decided that it is far better for ALL of us to know that we have a plan for when ds1 intentionally hurts ds2 -- I can feel less freaked out when it happens and ds1 can finally get some clarity and consistency on the issue. We have been 360 degrees on this one, and believe me I have tried everything from T/O (which I never believed in and urged other parents not to do) to all the empathizing and prevention and playfulness and explanation and ALL the Unconditional Parenting stuff. But today I am feeling quite sure that ds1 DOES need a consequence for this particular action. And no, seeing his brother hurt and crying is NOT enough of a consequence to prevent more aggression. I believe 100% that his drive to not hurt people must one day come from within, but right now I MUST protect my baby. So we will implement a swift and undramatic consequence (T/O, in the same room, without being ignored) in order to get the short term result that we must have -- the baby's safety!!!

I'm not posting this to provoke argument, but rather to point out that (and admit?!?) that perfection is beyond me. A friend recently pointed out that the UP Kohn describes in his book is the same UP that the Bible describes of God's love for us. I'm not a religious person, but I agree with the analogy, and I agree that none of us are God. And so when I strive for UP and fail, I believe it ends up being WORSE, bc I suddenly break and my anger rushes out and I end up giving my own drama to the situation. So until I can be completely zen-like in my mothering, I need a back-up plan. And that plan for now is that I have to administer a consequence -- as gently as I possibly can -- in order to extinguish the aggression being directed at the tiniest member of our home.

Yes, I will continue to work my arse off to prevent it, and yes, I will continue to search for the underlying needs not being met, and yes, I will teach and teach and teach my oldest about empathizing. But suddenly I am seeing clearly that he he is searching for a limit on this and he will likely feel comforted in knowing that there actually is one. It's like he's out of control and he needs my help putting on the brakes.

And truly, don't we all have to learn that there ARE limits to other people's patience with us? I will do my very best not to withdraw my love from him, but some physical distance between the aggressor and the victim is a must when things start to heat up.

Now I'm rambling. But I did want to come on here and humble myself bc I have held on to these UP ideals thru thick and thin (and have encouraged others to do the same) but feel that I may have made things worse. Not sure I have the energy for a huge debate, but need to post this to get it off my chest. Maybe it will help someone else.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Theories are great, in theory.

Fact is, every child is different. Every family is different. Each circumstance is totally unique.

Children can get very scared and very angry when there are no set limits and boundaries. They feel like they are in control of the world, and NO ONE wants to feel that way! That's why they have parents... ones who can and will set boundaries and consistent discipline strategy so that they feel safe and secure in their world.

Trust me, I've wholeheartedly spouted and endorsed pretty much every AP/GD philosophy out there. None of it comes close to my mother's intuition and my maternal connection to my own child. I've found, with myself and some of my friends, that I molded my discipline strategy around what was done to ME as a child and how it affected me, which led to unhealthy extremes in boundary-setting (or, to be more precise, the lack thereof.) When we let go of expectations, and when we let go of the rebellion of how WE were parented, and just tune in to our intuition and our children's needs, it all falls into place.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

No advice, but sometimes it is just hard.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Uhg. I'm sorry you're going through such a difficult time right now. It must be so hard on all of you. No parent is perfect all the time. It can be frustrating to try to do the right thing and not get the results you were looking for. I have found that when trying to correct a problem behavior I have to figure out the root cause and solve that issue. If the reason for the behavior has not been dealt with and solved, no amount of punishment will get rid of the problem. If the problem is continuing despite my efforts to help with the root cause, i figure one of two things is happening: I was wrong about the cause and need to rethink, or my solution to the root problem was not right, or inconsistant.


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## sweetc (Aug 12, 2003)

It's hard, isn't it.

I struggled with the same thing when my baby was born and realize that it is my job to keep both of my children safe. Sounds silly to even say that, but I had to change the way I parented my older DS when the baby was born. I didn't feel like I had time to patiently help him work and come up with an internal motivator for why it wasn't a good idea for him to smack his brother with a car, etc. I had to protect the little one. The book Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline helped me think through some things. But, in our house there are consequences imposed if you hurt someone. And, it has really worked.

I do my very best everyday and I am trying to make that my new definition of perfect. Sometimes all the theories and book advice cloud my momma instinct or make me feel like I am failing to parent perfectly. I try to just take what I need at the time.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathe*
I'm not posting this to provoke argument, but rather to point out that (and admit?!?) that perfection is beyond me.

I wouldn't feel like this. Instead, you just have your own particular family with its own particular circumstances. Relationships are like snowflakes, no two are alike, and if they wrote about all the times their methods DIDN'T work in those books, they probably wouldn't sell. Also, your consequence sounds very, very appropriate, and not very harsh at all. In fact, I have seen many mothers recommend strategies like this for aggressive children ON THIS VERY BOARD.

One more thing, my dd was in the habit of kicking/hitting the baby, and I found that once I broke the cycle, once I could get her to stop doing it for about two weeks, most of the tendency disappeared. So maybe that will work with your son.


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Thanks so much, Mamas. I am so very grateful to caome back and see that all the responses to *me* have been so very gentle.







I need that as much as anything right now.

Still thinking . . . After I posted, I thought through some scenarios and realized that not all of the acts of aggression are T/O worthy, so I'm still not planning on consequences all of the time. And yes, it feels like the consequences can be delivered in a much more gentle manner than some of my outbursts after the UP hasn't worked.


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## meowmix (Jul 14, 2005)

Aggression against a sibling is so tough. If it helps, and I don't know if it is helping me yet but I do it anyway, but I have the aggresive one sit beside me while I comfort the crying sibling- even if it means reminding them they need to sit beside me a few times because they are trying to get up to go play. I guess it could be considered a timeout, but I tried instilling empathy in the child who had hurt their sibling, but they were liable to just stay long enough for me to say "---- is hurt and crying." and then they would run off without a second thought to the other's feelings. So now I have them sit beside me until the little one who got hurt is calmed down. They see me comforting the hurt child and when the hurt child is calmed down I turn to the child who was aggressive and sometimes I explain, and sometimes I ask, how the crying child felt and why they felt that way. This way I am kind of hoping they really SEE what is happening to their sibling instead of just hurting and then running off to do something else while I comfort.









I haven't seen it help yet, though. It's not like they have stopped beating on eachother or have ever stopped to really comfort one they have hurt (unless it was unintentional).


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## Maple Leaf Mama (Jul 2, 2004)

I'm just wondering: if you use T/O in the same room without removal of attention (is that how you worded it) how is that a T/O?
Isn't T/O supposed to be total removal from the situation so they can calm down and/or gain perspective?
I'm in no way trying to be a pest. I'm just trying to figure out alternatives for my own household and am curious.
Thanks,
Sandy


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meowmix*
Aggression against a sibling is so tough. If it helps, and I don't know if it is helping me yet but I do it anyway, but I have the aggresive one sit beside me while I comfort the crying sibling- even if it means reminding them they need to sit beside me a few times because they are trying to get up to go play. I guess it could be considered a timeout, but I tried instilling empathy in the child who had hurt their sibling, but they were liable to just stay long enough for me to say "---- is hurt and crying." and then they would run off without a second thought to the other's feelings. So now I have them sit beside me until the little one who got hurt is calmed down. They see me comforting the hurt child and when the hurt child is calmed down I turn to the child who was aggressive and sometimes I explain, and sometimes I ask, how the crying child felt and why they felt that way. This way I am kind of hoping they really SEE what is happening to their sibling instead of just hurting and then running off to do something else while I comfort.









I haven't seen it help yet, though. It's not like they have stopped beating on eachother or have ever stopped to really comfort one they have hurt (unless it was unintentional).


I really like this, even if it's not working yet. I like that it makes it a problem for everyone, that everyone has to stop what they're doing and heal the hurt. I think I'll try it.

Do you ignore the hurter while attending to the hittee, I mean aside from reminding them to sit with you?


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maple Leaf Mama*
I'm just wondering: if you use T/O in the same room without removal of attention (is that how you worded it) how is that a T/O?
Isn't T/O supposed to be total removal from the situation so they can calm down and/or gain perspective?

I read this article in a mainstream magazine that had a quote from the person who originally invented T/O, and that's his suggestion. He meant it as a very temporary withdrawal of attention from the person who broke the rule, not timed, no removal of the child, either. He basically felt that its current form (naughty step, separation, one minute for each year of age, etc.) was inappropriate, shaming, and ineffective. We don't use it, but it did seem a lot more palatable in his explanation.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

The mama bear instinct to protect your *baby* from your older *baby* is fierce, isn't it?! I know so many mamas who were surprised at the intensity of emotion brought up by this situation.


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maple Leaf Mama*
if you use T/O in the same room without removal of attention (is that how you worded it) how is that a T/O?
Isn't T/O supposed to be total removal from the situation so they can calm down and/or gain perspective?

Yeah, I don't really know if what we do/did/will try is technically T/O, but I have avoided it bc is it punitive. I think of it as a T/O bc I have to force my offending child to do it and it takes him away from whatever fun thing he'd like to do next. Not ignoring him while he's sitting there was my idea -- I thought it might be a way to ensure that I'm *not* withdrawing my love, since Alfie has me convinced that this is a cruel thing to do.

And yes, georgia, you are so right . . . Parenting two is an entirely different universe. I was SO gentle when I had only one . . . never raised my voice, never used punishment, sat through the longest most-intense tantrums, even defended myself from hitting and kicking without really ever losing my patience. Now I feel like I have absolutely no idea what I am doing when behavior issues arise. And they arise ALL the time. It's been 14.5 months and my ds1 appears to still be reeling from the birth of ds2. Plus he's 4 and NOW everyone tells me 4 is nightmarish. Did I mention he's home with me 24/7?









baby awakes . . .


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I was always so confident of what I _wasn't_ going to do, until I had more than one little one







It's a whole new ballgame. I think it's so important to figure out our responses ahead of time, when the baby hasn't just been bonked! My mothering instincts can be a bit off in times of stress due to how I was mothered...so planning, for me, is really important.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Here is my post from a recent thead that was the same situation. Do you know about the Comfort Corner concept?

1. Fill love tank. See "The Five Love Languages for Children". The author suggests that the five are: acts of service, physical touch, gifts, affirmation, quality time. We generally value all; but there is usually a primary 'love language' and each adult or child feels more full of love, or empty of love, if their love language isn't being "spoken" to them consistently, daily.

2. Eye contact when speaking with child.

3. Validation of feelings as has been suggested. The "How to Talk so Kids will Listen, How to Listen so Kids will Talk" discusses pratical communication skills for increasing the dialogue effectiveness.

4. "Siblings Without Rivalry" helps discuss what one pp was saying about allowing the "ugly" feelings about a new sibling to be voiced and validated. This helps the child work through them so that he can move away from carrying them alone. And then he can gain perspective once these are not such a heavy burden.

5. "The Explosive Child" discusses 'picking your battles'. Basically, it has a "Basket" criteria of degrees of battle. Basket "A" is safety issues. These are critical to health and worth making an issue over. Basket "C" are little things that won't matter tomorrow, next week or next month. These are ignored and dealt with without creating an issue/battle or power struggle.

Basket "B" are the important but negotiable items which need buy-in. Most things are here. But the issue is to determine 'Is this critical to the family's happiness *today* to create a power struggle?' What other ways can this issue be tackled together as a team?

6. Food intolerances: dairy causes aggression in our son. We see his behavior change about one hour after consumption and lasts 1-6 hours depending on quantity consumed. Also, high fructose corn syrup (not sugar), artificial colors: red and yellow. See "The Feingold Diet" on-line.

7. 'Meet the underlying needs' is my mantra. I was glad to see so many posters suggesting the focus on working to solve the need, rather than focusing on eliminating the behavior.

HTH, Pat


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Thanks for the many suggestions, scubamama. In a way I find your ideas validating, bc I feel I do most of these things (I've memorized Faber & Mazlisch!), but then I wonder why we are still having such troubles. I think for us it may the "fill the love tank" problem . . . My ds1 has such an enormous tank, it seems as though his is hardly ever full! And I say this after hearing a very experienced and very gentle mama reflect after 18 yrs that "children are insatiable. You can never truly meet all their needs." So while I have wholeheartedly bought into the "meet the underlying need" philosophy, I think perhaps I am also feeling somewhat oppressed by it . . . I mean, isn't that what my perfectionism has been all about? Never tiring in my efforts to determine what the underlying need is? And then assuming that if I can just put my finger on that need, I can then MEET it! I think this is not attainable for me and my ds1. It appears that his NEED right now is to have me all to himself, all the time, like it was before ds2 was born. Needless to say, we cannot go there. And at some point, ds1 needs to begin coping with the reality that his brother is here to stay. I SOOOOO want to help him with this and I work at it constantly, but I guess I am beginning to acknowledge that there are limits to what I can do FOR ds1. I can love him as best as I can love him and that's all I can do. This sounds painfully obvious, and yet novel for someone who has always assumed that any problem can be solved with enough thought, energy, and hard work!

Is this making sense?


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathe*
This sounds painfully obvious, and yet novel for someone who has always assumed that any problem can be solved with enough thought, energy, and hard work!

Is this making sense?

This makes a ton of sense to me, and I don't know if it's painfully obvious or not, but I think it's something we all do. I know I've found myself thinking I can solve every problem for my children, but I'm only their mother. No more, no less.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathe*
Thanks for the many suggestions, scubamama. In a way I find your ideas validating, bc I feel I do most of these things (I've memorized Faber & Mazlisch!), but then I wonder why we are still having such troubles. I think for us it may the "fill the love tank" problem . . . My ds1 has such an enormous tank, it seems as though his is hardly ever full! And I say this after hearing a very experienced and very gentle mama reflect after 18 yrs that "children are insatiable. You can never truly meet all their needs." So while I have wholeheartedly bought into the "meet the underlying need" philosophy, I think perhaps I am also feeling somewhat oppressed by it . . . I mean, isn't that what my perfectionism has been all about? Never tiring in my efforts to determine what the underlying need is? And then assuming that if I can just put my finger on that need, I can then MEET it! I think this is not attainable for me and my ds1. It appears that his NEED right now is to have me all to himself, all the time, like it was before ds2 was born. Needless to say, we cannot go there. And at some point, ds1 needs to begin coping with the reality that his brother is here to stay. I SOOOOO want to help him with this and I work at it constantly, but I guess I am beginning to acknowledge that there are limits to what I can do FOR ds1. I can love him as best as I can love him and that's all I can do. This sounds painfully obvious, and yet novel for someone who has always assumed that any problem can be solved with enough thought, energy, and hard work!

Is this making sense?

I can only imagine how hard it is from everything I have heard about having a second child closely spaced, with limited physical resources (ie. extended trusted family/ surragates). We have choosen not to add to our family demands beyond our emotional and physical resources for this precise reason. The nuclear family unit is not conducive to nurturing, in my opinion. Not nurturing of the children, the marriage or the selves. We need additional resources to share the overlapping demands. So, I wouldn't "give up" on GD, I would seek to identify the specific needs and work to meet those in a similar and mutually agreeable manner.

How about a mother's helper several hours, several days a week for two months? Consider it a cost of being a family, not unlike nourishment for our bodies. The mother's helper could tend to the baby while you are nearby and totally focused on ds1 for an hour; and then perhaps she could play one-on-one with ds1 for an hour while you have some time for self-care (a cup of tea, a quick shower, a glance at a magazine). I find that knowing our mother's helper will 'come to my rescue' so that I can rejuvenate is a salve to my sometimes urgent need for a moment to myself.

Nurturing other attached relationships is what your son sounds like he needs to replace his lost attentions from you. Expecting him to "cope" with this (unwanted?) life change won't help him to mourn and move through the loss of his primary place in your life. You can do that by validating as it sounds like you are aware to do. But the punishments for his emotional distress toward the baby doesn't validate, it negates his underlying emotions. Helping him to give voice to his anger at the baby coming into his life is how he will process and find a balance, in my opinion. Otherwise he will hold onto the anger indefinitely. And it could grow to more severe sibling rivalry and resentment. He needs to want to have positive relations with the baby, not be forced to "like it". Have you read Siblings Without Rivalry already too?

Would having additional play engagements help? A gym class, music class, playdates at your home, at other's homes, outings and activities to Nature Museums, the zoo, bowling, story time at the library, etc. Where other children are engaging by their presence and their actions. Perhaps, he would enjoy a Mother's Morning Out activity to *try* with you present if he needs that. But having another adult initiating the activities and engagement while you are not totally trying to care for both children concurrently. This way, you are available and he is engaged without all of the engagement falling to you alone.

Delegate, delegate, delagate all household activities to dh. Help dh create a more enriched relationship by suggesting Saturday outings together. This helps to nuture the significant attachments with your family without you alone being the emotional resource for your ds1.

I will try to think of more ideas. Our son is needing the computer now too.









Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Here is a link to a recent thread of a mama in your same situation. I wrote a long reply there too that I think might help.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ghlight=advice

Pat


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## mamabeca (Oct 3, 2004)

what hard times we mamas must live through. We too strive for perfection and live with humanity. BUT in trying, I think we all stretch ourselves, learn, and makeroom in the future for more, kwim? Today it failed, but tomorrow is new. He is new, you are new. My dd also has a HUUUUGE love tank that never seems to be full. I will play a board game with her, start her on a craft that is simple and fun, and go nurse the baby. Within less than 5 mins she is plopping herself into my lap, squashing the baby, needing hugs, etc.







Well, it's hard to give up ALL of mama for some kid who doesn't even play much. Life is hard all around LOL.


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## Aeress (Jan 25, 2005)

I know this is tough!!! I do believe that some children need consequences for their actions even for just a short period of time. hang in there, somestimes we just need to do something different and then try to go back to the original and see if it will work now.


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Thx scubamam for your thoughtful replies. I can tell that you are really concerned for us and are wanting to help so that we don't venture down the path of punitive discipline and invalidation of feelings. I appreciate that.

For anyone who knows me IRL, however, your last post sounds like a write-up of so mnany of the things we have tried and are trying . . . I won't go into a complete detailing of our recent family history, but I have a mother's helper 2 days/wk (and have had since ds2 was born); we go to art class, gym class, work at a local farm, play soccer (and I'm a coach -- baby is on someone else's back); we've tried preschool and took ds1 out when it was clear he didn't want to separate from me -- I never once left him crying; dh does almost ALL housework -- all laundry, cleans kitchen each night, manages all finances -- often stays up hrs after everyone else is in bed getting the house ready for the next day; dh also has special time with ds1 each morning -- rough and tumble play, if needed; and ds1 and I have "dates", too. We really have tried almost everything. And I'm not giving up on GD for anything other than this sibling violence. Heck, most people would think that what I'm proposing is quite gentle! It's only those familiar with Up or TCS who would see that it's a compromise.

And I may not have been clear about my goals in using T/O when he hurts the baby. I never meant that his angry feelings are not allowed or validated -- I am always talking to him about getting out his angry/jealous/frustrated, etc feelings in a *safe* way. So in no way am I trying to squash or cover up his resentment towards his brother. I just can no longer have the physical violence happening with no consequence.

I must admit that I bristled a bit at your suggestion that we made a mistake in having "closely spaced" children. I was in my 30's when I started having babies and it was VERY important to us that ds1 have a sibling -- the most lasting relationship of his life -- so I did have to go ahead and have another when he was 3. And we felt like we waited longer than most. Not sure why I'm defending this life choice -- which, by the way, brought another precious soul to our family -- but I suppose I'm asking that you reserve such judgement, even though you've made a different choice for your family. (And by the way, we DO have family in town -- all 4 sets of parents, in fact, but it still doesn't prevent ds1 from knocking ds2 down like a bowling pin!)

I'm off to read your post on the other thread . . .


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

I find that it is unhelpful to the self to think in terms of failing to live up to "perfection". It is not US that fails but an unrealistic ideal of perfection that has failed us.
You have not failed, your idea of what is "perfect" has failed you. It isnt working. If you change what your idea of perfection is, you can feel like less of a failure and attain that perfection!
Dont knock yourself, you are doing your BEST.
That is MY definition of perfection. I am perfect when I am doing my best.
Lucky me, I am almost always perfect (except for ultra lazy days!







)


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## meowmix (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
I really like this, even if it's not working yet. I like that it makes it a problem for everyone, that everyone has to stop what they're doing and heal the hurt. I think I'll try it.

Do you ignore the hurter while attending to the hittee, I mean aside from reminding them to sit with you?


I try to ignore the hurter until the crying sibling is calmed down and feels better. I do acknowledge that the child crying is hurt and crying or upset, etc. I name their feelings and I kind of direct that at both parties, but otherwise, it's important to me to help the person who has been hurt, even if it's only a cuddle they need to calm down. I really don't want to pay attention to the hurter mostly because I am usually a little peeved at them







: and I would probably not react favourably if I picked that moment when their sibling is crying to discuss the issue. It's better for me to wait until there is no more crying! (Crying is a trigger for me, it stresses me out and that's when I am liable to get snippy). But I also don't want to make a huge issue and "baby" (for lack of a better word right now) the crying sibling. I comfort in a loving but kind of matter of fact way, I guess. I think if I made too much fuss over the hurt child then I would be blowing a simple issue into a big thing. I have found lately that they are able to name eachothers potential feelings better than they were before and I hope eventually they will name their own emotions and communicate with their siblings instead of wonking them with toys, or otherwise abusing eachother! heh..

Oh, I should add, I have never had to coerce or "force" the hurter to sit with me. If they want to run off, I do touch them gently and request they sit down beside me until the crying sibling is calmer. And they always have. I never had to fight with them to get them to sit beside me or anything like that.

I hope that helped a bit. Sometimes I feel kind of like I live with a bunch of wild animals!


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

I love the overarching ideas of UP, but in practice, it is a whole different ball game. Maybe Alfie's kids aren't like mine, I dunno. I think that UP asks kids who are not able to control their impulses to make moral decisions. I think that is too much to put on a child. I think that applying UP to kids under 5 is similar to asking them to stop the rotation of the earth. You can use the broader ideas of respecting kids and not withdrawing your love, but if they cannot control their little hands, how can they control their intent?

I think it is such a cop-out throughout the book when he says that he cannot make specific suggestions because he "doesn't know your kid". He does not mention anything about your older child attacking the littler one, and in my experience nothing can make a mama more furious.

You have my empathy/sympathy. As someone who walks in your shoes everyday, I get it.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Hello Breathe,
I have closely spaced sib, in fact, much more closely spaced than yours (21 months apart). Not by choice in my case, but I wanted 2, and that's how they came. Anyways, the agression will not stop, it will change forms. So you need to be patient. Personally, what worked for our family was NOT leaving the two of them together alone ever not even for a minute until dd2 knew how to walk well enough. Either they were with me or they were apart. I wore the baby in the sling a lot. When she was on the floor, I would occupy the eldest with chores or projects or whatever, but I would keep her with me. I noticed in fact I was pretty good at guessing when aggression would take place and I prevented prevented prevented. There still were a few episodes, but then, just a few really.
Then, there were times, carefully chosen times when they were both in good spirits, and I would leave them..and pretended not to watch... but I did watch... and they would have moments of real fun together... I would not say anything on the spot but then later in the day, when the baby would cry I would say, DD1 I can't calm the baby... You're so good at making her laugh... Please help me!
I did try the T/0 even the version of being in the same room with me but it does not work with my dd1 intense personality at all. Parenting two is so hard, so hard.... But I disagree you cannot UP children under 5...


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

I guess I worded that wrong. Myabe I meant that I can UP, but my kids aren't ready to respond to it the way he explains it. I think you can UP under five, but I don't think you can totally expect the results that he says one gets. I think it is crucial to start UP'ing early if you want to get those results later. I think that treating your children with the 13 ideals that he lays out is the way children deserve to be treated. I just don't think you can expect a three year to analyze a situation, think of the ramifications of each of their options and then choose wisely.


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## Maple Leaf Mama (Jul 2, 2004)

Breathe,
How old is your oldest?
I have a 27 month old and having any form of T/O causes her to completly spaz out. How do you have your DS sit there without throwing himself at you?
I agree, there needs to be consequences for certain behaviors. But what do you do when your consequences just make the initial "freak out" worse?

This GD thing is harder than I expected it to be!


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## Ravin (Mar 19, 2002)

I was just wondering what sorts of things you've done to foster attachment between your son and the baby? Does he have any responsibility toward the baby? Or does he only see him as this great thief of mommy's time and attention?

Four isn't too young to learn how to change a diaper, to carry the baby sometimes (esp. with a carrier or sling), to bring him to you to nurse, to push the stroller when you're out and about, or to be responsible for keeping the baby happy while you do other tasks nearby. Might encouraging him to nurture and physically care for his baby brother help him be more empathetic and caring towards him as well?


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

You've gotten so many wonderful replies!! I can see how hard you are working and how difficult it is. I don't have a whole lot to add but did want to add the piece that helped us the most. That was making sure the "bad" feelings were let out and validated. That was hard for me at first. I didn't like validating things like getting rid of sister







But it was the key for us. As soon as my older dd felt heard she could move through it and get to a place where she loved her sister again. If I saw she was acting out towards her then I might say "it's really hard to have a sister sometimes". This was met with such relief. This is right out of Faber Mazlish but it really worked for us. Maybe you are doing it too, but it is the one thing I didn't see you talking about much. My girls are 23 months apart they are now 6 and almost 8. They are the best of friends, we really have RARE sibling issues and I think it was all the hard work we did in the beginning to validate and hear them as they were carving out a relationship. So please don't give up on them







It is SO hard right now but it will get easier. I do believe if your older ds isn't heard now though that he will ultimately blame his brother and that is what I would want to avoid. It isn't really about perfection for me and again I see how hard you are trying. I guess I just want to say it's worth the work. I know so many people with kids my age that hate each other and it doesn't have to be that way! I wish you the best!!!

Anna


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

It sounds like you are working really hard to solve this problem. I hope things start to get better for you soon. It is difficult to have closely spaced siblings, but it gets much easier in the long run. You are in the middle of a difficult adjustment period. It won't last forever.

Have you read the book Playful Parenting? There are lots of great ideas in there that might be helpful to you. I liked the authors suggestions for playing out aggresive and strong feelings, and playing your way through sibling rivalry.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

I just wanted to add that closely spacing siblings is not just about taking mom away from the older child and neglecting that child's needs. It is about giving an irreplaceable gift as well.
There are advantages and disadvantages to all choices.
There is nothing inherently bad about closely spaced siblings more than there is anythign inherently bad about being an only child.
And no mom should be made to feel guilty or that she is sacrificing her older child for her younger when she makes this perfectly vaild choice.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
I just wanted to add that closely spacing siblings is not just about taking mom away from the older child and neglecting that child's needs. It is about giving an irreplaceable gift as well.
There are advantages and disadvantages to all choices.
There is nothing inherently bad about closely spaced siblings more than there is anythign inherently bad about being an only child.
And no mom should be made to feel guilty or that she is sacrificing her older child for her younger when she makes this perfectly vaild choice.

Thank you, johub, ITA. I think we sometimes think that if we don't carefully control every experience our child encounters, they will somehow grow up damaged. But I think children really are much more resilient than we give them credit for, and a closely spaced sibling is something they can not only deal with, especially in a loving household, but something that will enrich their lives like nothing else can. I certainly don't view my siblings as a detriment to my childhood.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Great advice here mamas


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Breathe,

I am sorry that you felt that I believe that having closely spaced children is a "mistake". I certainly believe it has effects on each family's dynamics, just as having an only child, or many children has. Each family chooses their family size according to their needs, priorities and resources. However, my family doesn't have the reserves and resources to live consensually in the manner to which we all three would desire, with adding a closely spaced child, at this point. We do not have extended family on which to rely. Other families have more reserves and resources than we do. But from my observations, our culture of nuclear family units is generally not condusive to consistently providing for the needs of closely spaced children (*and* the parent's needs) without outside resources being sought. And I believe the parent's needs are equally valid as the children's.

My perception of American culture is that the "norm" does not include extended family that is emotionally nurturing in a GD/UP fashion. Thus, parents need to seek more compatible resources to balance the family needs with the family's finite emotional and physical resources. AP has an aura of 'mama does it all', and that is not necessary (in my opinion), if loving alternatives can be nurtured according to the child/ren's comfort. It took me a long time to understand that I couldn't provide for all of our (one and only) son's needs all by myself. And that seeking mutually agreeable help was beneficial to our whole family, individually and collectively. Thus, my suggestions to increase resource access. Sorry for the confusion. The point was to validate that you have your hands full, beyond what I could do alone. And to suggest alternatives.

Pat


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## Jewelie (Nov 18, 2005)

Thanks Breathe, for saying what I've been afraid to say since reading and trying to follow the UP way. I also have a baby (8 mos) and a 4-yr-old who tries to hurt the baby multiple times/day. I have to be right on top of their every interaction b/c I never know when the older one will go from sugar sweet to Atilla the hun and clober the baby w/o warning. When I'm not shadowing one or both of them, I wear the baby to keep her safe but she's on the verge of crawling and isn't going to put up w/that much longer!) In my defense I feel like I too work really hard to understand, validate, play, and connect but I still need some strategy for what to do when an act of aggression happens in spite of my best efforts to "fill the cup" of my eldest. Before UP I used TO. Post UP, I have tried talking about what it must be like for the baby to be hurt by her beloved older sis.

I've gone through a range of thoughts, from "oh, my God, what have a done to my poor baby!" to "well the need of the baby not to be pummelled should trump the need for primo not to feel abandoned- this behavior just needs to be extinquished now," to "Oh, my God, I'm going to f---ing kill her!"

Now I'm thinking Both children actually need to be protected from the older one hurting the younger one- if the older one needs help controlling her darker impulses and we don't give it to them, they suffer from guilt on top of everything else. I've always heard that children need boundaries to feel safe. Until I read UP, I felt TO could be used as a consequence of their choosing (ie, "you hit, you sit"). I also remember feeling that if I gave up TO as a recourse FOR MYSELF, that I would loose my temper and do something worse, like hit. After UP, I stopped using TO, the aggression level has stayed about the same but I am finding, as it sounds like you are, Breathe, that w/o any recourse, I am filled with rage and while I haven't yet hit my child, as I feared, I've certainly jerked her too hard and yelled at her almost daily. I think she was better off w/TO! Having a rageful out-of-control mother has to be really scarey. And thats what I seem to be when I feel like I can't protect my baby. And how exactly can I expect her to control herself when I, at 37, can't control myself?????

In an ideal world all this UP stuff would be possible w/in the context of a violence free home so Both my children feel safe. But the fact is, my 4YO is clearly not as evolved as AK's children as yet. She seems to need my help controlling her darker (if completely understandable) impulses. Can't we, her parents, work to impart empathy and compassion while acting swiftly to stop a behavior that puts the baby in real physical danger?

So I'm left thinking about what AK says about empathy and how to foster it (or not squelch it). I am a very empathic person as are my 2 sibs (though admittedly we are not w/o our neuroses). But empathy we have and we were parented very conventionally, punished physically even. If AK is right, wouldn't the world be filled w/sociopaths????

Breathe, I am eager to hear the results of your experiment w/"TO" as well as the thoughts of other mamas. Thanks for continuing to think so deeply about these parenting questions.


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## Aeress (Jan 25, 2005)

great replies! I was reminded while reading them that empathy can be fostered in the early years but doesn't fully evolove until children reach older years. they can not truely understand what it is to feel like someone else until 8 usually but they can understand when others are hurt, sad etc
I also like madelynn swift and with her beliefs about character development and self esteem, that along with alfie it is nice to see alternatives to the super nanny way of raising children.
hang in there! i am not a believer in time outs as a "rule" but they do not have to be a time of no affection or love either. taking time to calm down is o.k too.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jewelie*
Now I'm thinking Both children actually need to be protected from the older one hurting the younger one- if the older one needs help controlling her darker impulses and we don't give it to them, they suffer from guilt on top of everything else. I've always heard that children need boundaries to feel safe.

I think this was a great point. Not only do the older ones need to be protected from their dark side, but they need to see that their mother protects her children from being hurt, IMO. Even if it's them being the hurter. Does that make sense?


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Thanks so much for the kind words, Everyone. I am too burnt to formulate a coherent reply, but wanted to update that since I decided (in a humph!) to resort to T/O, we've not had a single incident of aggression. Isn't that the way it goes?!?









And while my initial response to so many of your suggestions has been, "But I already do that!", my brain is percolating on the fact that I may not be doing them as well as I think I am . . . so sometime when I can stand the self-reflection, I plan to come back and reread your ideas and see where I can improve. Again.

Is this drive for constant improvement in our parenting not bordering on the insane?!? I mean, really, there is no end to it. It's not like I'll ever *achieve* being the perfect mom . . . or, as a pp suggested, that I'll ever really believe that I'm "doing the best I can" -- if that's a better definition for perfect. I will ALWAYS believe that I can do better, so when will I ever feel satisfaction?

Yikes. This is getting heavy. Must sleep.
Peace out,
Breathe


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
I think this was a great point. Not only do the older ones need to be protected from their dark side, but they need to see that their mother protects her children from being hurt, IMO. Even if it's them being the hurter. Does that make sense?


Yes, thanks jewelie and natensarah for articulating this . . . Yesterday my *baby* was whacking ds1 repeatedly with a magic wand, and repeating it for the reaction of me saying, "Gentle hands! Ds1 is not for hitting!" After 4 or 5 repetitions of this, I removed the wand and got ds2 involved in something else. At which point ds1 said, "Thanks for protecting me, Mom." Oh! I wanted to fall on the floor sobbing with such a mixture of emotion -- gratitude that I had reassured him that HE also is not for hurting; relief that I had done the right thing, for once!; empathy for his little 4yo self who's still trying to figure out how the world works; and just love for my big guy for showing me some tenderness in the middle of a crazy day.







If only the baby would do this more so I can prove to ds1 that I'll protect him, too! Bet THAT wish is gonna come true, huh?!?


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## CinnamonDeMarco (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathe*
And no, seeing his brother hurt and crying is NOT enough of a consequence to prevent more aggression. I believe 100% that his drive to not hurt people must one day come from within, but right now I MUST protect my baby. So we will implement a swift and undramatic consequence (T/O, in the same room, without being ignored) in order to get the short term result that we must have -- the baby's safety!!!



I understand what you are saying. I recommend Time Out.

Imagine if your baby grew up and said to you, "Mom you knew Big Brother used to hit me and you didn't protect me." You can't say, "I didn't want to punish Big Brother because I didn't want to hurt his feelings. I read a book about that."

I do not advocate spanking. But time out - sure. I don't think it is harsh or cruel. I don't think it is traumatizing. If it stops your older son from hurting his brother it is worth it.

I use time out on my toddler when he is aggressive with the baby. He will make her cry maybe once a week. He has never seriously hurt her. He's a pretty good big brother. Part of the reason why is because he loves his baby sister. His father and I are very loving and attentive to both children. However there are times when my toddler gets annoyed and wants to hit his sister _but he doesn't because I am watching_. He knows he will get a time out if he hits so he doesn't hit.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

You might really enjoy a book by Eda LeShan called, "When Your Child Drives You Crazy". LeShan was a Mothering Living Treasure a couple of years back and a huge child advocate (She also wrote Let Them Eat Words, which is great!). The book is a fast read, easy to pick up and put down, with lots of good ideas. You could probably get it through inter library loan as it's been out awhile.


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## MamaAcorn (Jul 8, 2003)

I haven't had a chance to sit down and read all the posts, but I wanted to say that we are going through the exact same thing and pretty much are coming to the same conclusions that you have. Hugs to you mama!


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

After reading some more replies, I thought I would clarify what works here, if you decide you don't want to use time out. I would NEVER just sit there while my child was being hurt. Here is a scenario:

dd1 built tower, dd 2 came along and bumped it, dd2 hits or pushes dd1. I would get in between them securing the safety of dd1 and say "WOW, it looks like you are really angry!" If I know about the tower, I'd say "dd1 knocked down your tower". "I HATE HER, I want her to go away", "You hate her, she knocked down your tower that you had worked so hard to build". That acknowledges what she said but moves her to the cause as opposed to just hating the sister. She might want to say more about it and I would just keep reflecting. Then we would move to "what can we do to keep your towers safe? do you want to take the blocks to your room, do them on the table, etc" Then the focus is moved to actually solving the problem and avoiding the whole thing. If I were to just plop her in TO because she hit or pushed then we would never fix the problem the started it in the first place. And no doubt the whole time she was in TO she would be fuming about her sister, thus harming their relationship. A four year old knows not to hit, that just shows to me that they are out of sorts and need help. Afterwards, we could strategize about what to do, instead of lashing out, when she needs help. That means that I might have to drop everything when a secret word is used or something like that.

Whenever this has happened here, it has moved so fast from the anger and hatred towards the sibling to "I really don't hate her but I'm really mad!!!" and that is such a great shift, then we can solve the problem and then everyone feels empowered and heard.

So yes, protecting the youngest is critical but to me fixing the problem and helping them develop communication skills is what will protect them both in the long run. Without those tools it will just be an escalating proposition of punishments and anger.

This really does work, not just for me but for other families I know and even for me with cousins that are in punitive households. The parents are always amazed







and the kids always relieved to be heard and not yelled at our put in TO.

Anna


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

That's a very important point, Anna. I don't want my kids manhandling each other. If they upset each other, i need to be there to interpret the anger for them, and make sure they understand that it's OK to get upset and be sad/angry, but it is never OK to harm each other. Being there at these times is physically demanding and mentally demanding. But we can't just ignore it as they need the tools and words to work it out.

I know some people don;t get involved unless there is physical contact, but I have seen that kids need a parent to translate the situation in a way they inderstand. Without words and empathy, that can be facilitated by the parent, kids aren't going to learn postivie and helpful coping skills.

Normalizing anger and sadness helps as well. 'You are so angry that she ruined your hard work. It's ok to feel sad and get it out. I can hold you while you cry" and to the other child "Sometimes it's scary to see other's people's anger and sadness. We have to take care of each other in this family. We have to think of other ways to get each other's attention. After we all calm down, lets think of ways to help get this back together".

Lots of times I noticed that i misread the sounds and signs of impending conflicts. Smaller children often lash out at older sibs because they feel left out of something cool, or they feel their older sib is marginalizing them. They also take 'No, i don't want to play with you, i'm working on this" **very** personally.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathe*
Is this drive for constant improvement in our parenting not bordering on the insane?!? I mean, really, there is no end to it. It's not like I'll ever *achieve* being the perfect mom . . . or, as a pp suggested, that I'll ever really believe that I'm "doing the best I can" -- if that's a better definition for perfect. I will ALWAYS believe that I can do better, so when will I ever feel satisfaction?

Yikes. This is getting heavy. Must sleep.
Peace out,
Breathe

I wanted to address this.
What I often say to my kids , and also to myself when I need it is that nobody can ever do better than their personal best.
I really believe this to be true. If nobody can do better than their personal best, then that is what we should strive for. We might not meet that goal all the time, but it is more attainable than some goal beyond what we are capable of at our best.
Now the sticker is what is our absolute personal best changes from moment to the next. Sometimes it isnt so good. When we are sick or overwhelmed or exhausted. But it is still our best for the given moment. And if it is not comparable to what we consider our best to be in good times, we need to forgive ourselves because at that time,we were not in a position to do better.
Our personal best changes in good ways all the time too. As you mentioned, we learn new things all the time. We incorporate new ideas and new techniques. WE find new reserves of patience. We take better care of ourselves so our best can be better tomorrow than it was yesterday.
Add to all of this confusion the fact that children change. And just when you mastered your "best" for a particular stage of life and the challenges that they entail, you child enters a new one and you need to learn entirley new skills.
Even if you always believe that you can do better, if you accept yourself as human and fallable and forgive yourself for your off days or the tools that seemed great on paper but didnt work in your family. You can be satisfied that you are doing the best for your kids.
And if you ever fully mastered it, and your kids remained static, wouldnt that really be worse than having a goal to strive for?

All any human can do is their personal best. So on any day when you feel you have done your best, content yourself and know you could have done no more. Even if it was a bad day, and your personal best was not a shining example of your best on a good day.

I suppose it all comes down to whether or not the definition of perfection precludes being human.

GOod Luck
Joline


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Must be brief . . . on sick child watch today . . . but Anna, ITA with everything you said, and that is my *exact* approach when ds1 is aggressive toward ds2 bc of anger or frustration or in reaction to something ds2 has done or even is about to do. And yes, it works very well.

What I'm talking about (and you couldn't have known this cause I didn't really lay it out) are the *random* acts of aggression . . . Ds1 is on his way to get his coat so we can go to the park and as he passes ds2 who is quietly playing with a car on the floor, he pushes ds2 over with his foot. I could give many more examples, but this is the gist. I KNOW there are underlying feelings, and we try to address them, but it is just sounding ridiculous that ds1 gets away with this kind of behavior with no more than a "It can be hard to have a little brother, but knocking him down is NOT okay." As you say, he KNOWS it's not okay -- that's the POINT!

So I guess I'm talking about very specific situations and in no way do I mean to imply that I'm just going to resort to T/O for any and all aggression and misbehavior. You have to take my word for it that my ds1 is searching for a limit here and his developmental stage seems to be such that he needs a more concrete boundary than just talking about feelings.

I would never abdicate my role as teacher, facilitator, or mediator, and I'm not suggesting that anyone else do that either. My RL friends would tell you that I have been the purist when it comes to UP (even before UP was written, I was a devotee of Punished by Rewards and used to conduct workshops for parents and teachers on these ideas). Which is why I felt it was important to post my thoughts . . . If *I'm* having trouble, then surely others are too.

UUMom, can you tell me more about why that book would be good? I'm so buried in books that I need to read . . .

MamaAcorn, Miss you! PM me and tell me how it is you ended up in TX!


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Thanks Joline! I'll see if I can wrap my brain around your explanation! You must be a yogi -- I know when I was an active yogi, I comprehended what you're saying, at least in a spiritual way if not in a cerebral way, but I seem to have lost so much of my understanding of such concepts!


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathe*
Must be brief . . . on sick child watch today . . . but Anna, ITA with everything you said, and that is my *exact* approach when ds1 is aggressive toward ds2 bc of anger or frustration or in reaction to something ds2 has done or even is about to do. And yes, it works very well.

What I'm talking about (and you couldn't have known this cause I didn't really lay it out) are the *random* acts of aggression . . . Ds1 is on his way to get his coat so we can go to the park and as he passes ds2 who is quietly playing with a car on the floor, he pushes ds2 over with his foot. I could give many more examples, but this is the gist. I KNOW there are underlying feelings, and we try to address them, but it is just sounding ridiculous that ds1 gets away with this kind of behavior with no more than a "It can be hard to have a little brother, but knocking him down is NOT okay." As you say, he KNOWS it's not okay -- that's the POINT!

So I guess I'm talking about very specific situations and in no way do I mean to imply that I'm just going to resort to T/O for any and all aggression and misbehavior. You have to take my word for it that my ds1 is searching for a limit here and his developmental stage seems to be such that he needs a more concrete boundary than just talking about feelings.

This post made me wonder if you might be able to practice more prevention? I think this sounds like it's gotten to be a little bit of a habit/stress response for your older son. Like it might actually have less to do with the baby and more to do with him feeling anxious/frustrated/tired, and taking it out physically. I think this is an easy habit to get into, have been in it myself when I was a child and teenager, and it's hard to break. And while I think it's great to REALLY make it clear that it's unacceptable to do that, I know with me it wasn't enough to have a consequence. I don't know, I might be proposing the impossible here, but maybe you could subtly keep yourself between them at all times? No problem, right?


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

The book has a lot of firm, loving, and specific things to say to children in need without being punitive. I think some people would find it not GD enough, so it might be perfect. lol

it's an easy, quick read, and one can pick it up and put it down without loss. The chapters are small and deal with specific behaviors.

If it were my child, I would hold his hand a lot. I would also go to him immediately- not call to him- and hold him if he kicked our stepped on someone. . Pick him up since he's so young. Tell him "There is no hurting in this family. I won't let ayone hurt you, and I cannot let you hurt your brother. I am going to carry you where you need to go right now". I know that might actually sound punitive, and perhaps not in keeping with my own writing on GD, but the safety of another child is at stake. I would not argue, i would not get into a time -out power struggle. That just takes the whole thing to another level and puts the original behavior on the back burner. I would just take the child where he needed to go and say nothing more, even if he fussed.

If he gets upset, you can tell him. "You are not able to walk by your brother without hurting him right now. I am going to help you do this. When you get get a little bigger and can control yourself you will be able do this without my help. Little children need their parents to help them learn how to do things".

I would also try very hard to avoid any movement where he might have to pass the baby. Before you ask him to do something, pick up the baby. It's physically exhausting and time intensive, no doubt.

I would not call him a baby or anything! (Not saying you do, just putting this all down as clearly as i can). And I would not make it sound punitive as in, "You can't handle yourself, so i have to handle you", for example. I would speak in the most postive way I can: firmly, warmly, and matter-of-factly. I would also reassure him in other ways how much he is growing. "You know, you didn't used to be able to reach this doorknob. I can't believe how much you've grown!"

I also would not comment if i notice him walking by his brother without hurting him. Not out of punishment ,but out of respect for his growth. Sometimes saying "wow! You didn't hit your brother that time' is just mean. It assumes you expect that he will always hit his brother, when what he really needs is guidance and growth. What i would do is find another way to comment on his growth. " Your brother was had a giant smile on his face when you handed him the toy he was reaching for or, "It's such a pleasure to run errands with you. It's fun to be together and chat" and 'It's good to have company when I;m trying to get things done".


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Breathe,

I appreciate the clarification. My concern in reading the thread is how quick others seem to be jumping on the TO bandwagon. It is certainly one option but I just wanted to say it is just that *one* option.

I hope you can get to the bottom of the aggression. I'm just afraid that fear of punishment be it TO or whatever will only motivate when you are around. Until you can understand where it's coming from, I doubt it will stop.

I would also say that in the situation you described I wouldn't say "it's hard to have a brother". I would say "Wow, you just knocked him over, what's going on?" and I would tend to the need of the child hurt. I would also talk about how ds1 should feel safe in his home and express your feelings and needs about the situation. I'm sure you have already done these things but again until you figure you why he is so upset or irritated I don't think the behavior will stop.

I wish you the best. I think it will all pass and hopefully you will have an update for everyone soon.

Take care, hope your child is feeling better soon!!

Anna


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

Joline,

Thanks for your post. I have been caught up in a I'm-a-crappy-parent mode of thinking because I cannot reach the perfect parent paradigm I have in my head. The guilt makes me an even worse parent, because I feel badly about myself. It all snowballs. So I think I will just try to do my best and that will have to be enough.


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RedWine*
Joline,

Thanks for your post. I have been caught up in a I'm-a-crappy-parent mode of thinking because I cannot reach the perfect parent paradigm I have in my head. The guilt makes me an even worse parent, because I feel badly about myself. It all snowballs. So I think I will just try to do my best and that will have to be enough.











Very well done, Joline.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)




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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
You might really enjoy a book by Eda LeShan called, "When Your Child Drives You Crazy". LeShan was a Mothering Living Treasure a couple of years back and a huge child advocate (She also wrote Let Them Eat Words, which is great!). The book is a fast read, easy to pick up and put down, with lots of good ideas. You could probably get it through inter library loan as it's been out awhile.


Ack! I just checked our library and neither of those titles by her is available.







: I got all excited for nothing. Off to check half.com and ebay.

Edited to add that I just got it for 75 cents!


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Hi All,

Just an update from me: Since I ran to my computer to vent last week, we've not has a single incident of aggression from ds1.







It's a good reminder to me that 1) the aggression really isn't all that *chronic* anymore after all -- it was much more intense a year ago but had improved greatly -- I just seem to have less patience for it now bc I expect it to be resolved (and never come back!). So I was at the end of my rope after a tough day or two.

and 2) Sometimes all I need to do is give myself permission to try another approach to discipline and that frees me up to be creative again. It's like I was feeeling oppressed by the UP ideals (which I placed on myself) and by relaxing them a bit, if only in my head, *I* then relaxed, too. And I'm sure it's not just coincidence or folly that resulted in no aggression in the last week . . . It's almost certainly due to prevention on my part. And I *am* good at prevention and I *do* meet my children's emotional needs MOST of the time (saying all this for myself now) and I *can* put the UP principles to work almost all the time.

One thing that has changed for me, however, is that I now have an understanding of how I may need to fall back on some very gentle consequences when either *I* am about to lose control, or when one of my children seems to be stuck in a loop of chronic misbehavior and I cannot see what the underlying cause is. If having a rough child sit down for a few minutes to cool his heels (and keep his brother safe) helps ME not blow my top, then that's preferable to me. And I do beleive that my children are resilient enough to tolerate sporadic incidents of T/O without feeling abandoned and losing their attachment to me. And I think when a baby's physical safety is being compromised, that's a good example of when a short-term solution is needed while you figure out the long-term approach.

I realize that much of the discussion on this thread has come from not wanting to send a message that all of us should just relax and use T/O with aggressive children -- and I, too, worry about "bandwagon jumpers" -- so I hope that I'm being clear that I remain committed to gentle discipline *without punishment such as time-out*. My need in this thread was for the discussion of a little wiggle room for those of us already well-schooled in the principles of UP. Maybe I'll go back and edit my OP in case people don't read this far!

Thanks to all you devoted mamas who helped me work through this. I can always count on you to talk me down or talk it through! (Oh, and I also ordered the LeShan book . . . found it on Amazon for $.01! Looking forward to perusing it for ideas.)

Best,
Breathe


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I just hope the LeShan book is as good as I remember it. Although, for a penny... even one helpful chapter is worth a penny.


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## jyurina (Mar 17, 2005)

You know, my son was older when I had dd(4 and a half) so his understanding was better. I simply told him that since we had a non-hurting family(how I described the no spanking to him) it extended to him and his new sister. So if he got aggressive I told him we would go in the other room, or he needed to until he could stop hurting her. It worked beautifully because it made sense. I told him I had to keep him and his sister safe and this was how it would be.


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