# What's wrong with milk???



## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

Please don't make me and my son give up milk! I love milk. I thought it was nutritious. I was going to get my own cow so we could have organic raw milk and dairy products. I am learning how to make my own butter.

What is the big conspiracy against milk? Isn't milk theoretically the most digestable food?

My DH has been reading 'The Maker's Diet' and has sworn off milk, but he can't explain why.


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## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

There's nothing wrong with raw milk, although there's a lot wrong with pasturized and homogenized milk, even if it is organic. You can go to www.realmilk.com for more details on why conventional milk is unhealthy...personally I would not give my child any milk other than raw milk, and I only used organic pasturized milk for cooking very rarely (only because I didn't have access to raw milk). I have read the Maker's Diet and I definitely don't recall him saying anything bad about milk other than saying that pasturized/homogenized milk isn't good for you. He does say that goat milk is better than cow's (easier to digest among other things) and that cultured dairy is best (homemade yogurt or kefir, cultured butter).

HTH!


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## rareimer (Oct 20, 2003)

i think it depends on your philosophy. alot of people don't drink milk because we are humans, not cows...we aren't really meant to digest it. (it is only through a genetic mutation eons ago that we actually can, but our bodies really aren't all that good at digesting it, as you can see from all the people who are sensitive to cow's milk protein.) humans are only meant to have milk for the first few years of life. not to say we can't drink it if we want to and if we tolerate it. we do a bit of dairy here, though i definitely try to limit it.

i also agree with the previous poster who says that raw milk is much better for you than pasteurized. although finding raw milk is pretty hard around here...


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## eco_mama (Feb 10, 2006)

cow milk is for calves
human milk is for babies

IMHO


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## reeseccup (Jul 3, 2003)

Not everyone is "anti-milk". I agree with a pp, it depends on your philosophy. We drink goats milk in our home with better effect than cows milk. Raw is best (when handled right), next would be a quality organic source from a store (most don't have raw as an option). It's not up to others if you choose to use milk or not.


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## veganf (Dec 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EcoMama7*
cow milk is for calves
human milk is for babies

IMHO

Yep, I think that's all that needs to be said. My children and I are NOT cows.

Besides, humans are the only species who drink milk after the age of weaning. Our bodies just don't need it after that.

- Krista


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## Janelovesmax (Feb 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *QueenOfThePride*
Please don't make me and my son give up milk! I love milk. I thought it was nutritious. I was going to get my own cow so we could have organic raw milk and dairy products. I am learning how to make my own butter.

What is the big conspiracy against milk? Isn't milk theoretically the most digestable food?

My DH has been reading 'The Maker's Diet' and has sworn off milk, but he can't explain why.

I'm not sure why DH would stop drinking milk after reading "The Maker's Diet". It should quite be the opposite. There is nothing wrong with raw milk, goat's or cow's.

www.realmilk.com


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EcoMama7*
cow milk is for calves
human milk is for babies

IMHO

So it's basically a philosophical thing. Nutritionally, we (my family) eat cows, so what's the difference between eating cow meat and cow milk, philosophically? I guess I don't see a difference for my family and my beliefs. Thanks for the feedback!


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## mommastar (Jan 26, 2006)

I agree...we are not calves, cows make milk for their offspring just as we make milk for ours.
I also personally have issues with the way the cows are treated and they take their babies away from them and dont let them nurse for very long so we can get their milk...and honestly I feel like there is probably alot of pus and plood and god only knows whatelse, that might be just me being warped though cus seriously i have no proof of that!I probably didnt say that very well but hopefully that makes sense...
I was actually just arguing this with my DD's doctor yesterday...I really do like him but we so do not have the same views! lol


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## cjr (Dec 2, 2003)

I hate the phrase "milk is for baby cows, not humans". I feel like anyone who makes that statement is doing so in a very condecending way. Just how I feel, not saying that is what is meant. For someone who drinks milk and grew up being told is was the healthiest food for them, it's kind of a insulting to have that phrase thrown at you. I'm sure the OP knows she is not a baby cow.







I'm not trying to be snotty, it's just something that really bugs me.

We can't buy raw milk here, and I don't think I would drink it even if we could. I KNOW my dh wouldn't. The thing with conventional milk is that the processing takes this good food and turns it bad, just like all food that has been processed. Homogonization is being linked to heart dissease, not the actual milk fat itself. Homogonization is when they change the molecular structure of the milk fat so it doesn't seperate. Paturization is destroying all the beneficial bacteria in raw milk, which is what makes raw milk so digestable.

My son can't handle dairy right now. He get eczema on his face pretty bad. My daughters prefer goat milk. My husband prefers the milk he grew up on which is fully processed. I buy my husband an organic non homogonized local milk, and I buy the girls goats milk which is naturally homogonized.

Cultured milk in the form of kefir, yoghurt, butter and real cheese is good for you in moderation.

Processed milk is very hard to digest and will actually cause your body to leach nutrients, such as the calcium, from your bones...because it's so hard to digest.

With the exception of ds (who gets no dairy), we have limited dairy. The girls have a nice yoghurt each morning with all those good bacterias, and a few extra ones I throw in. The girls also have a glass of goat milk with dinner. DS drinks rice milk. We eat a lot of leafy green vegetables and broccoli, which are loaded with highly digestable calcium.

I hope I answered your questions?


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## newcastlemama (Jun 7, 2005)

My family drinks raw milk/cheese and cultures dairy. The Maker's diet suggests that. My son is allergic to milk at 21 mos. but I give him whole goats milk (I will give him raw after we purchase a milking goat this summer)....Ds needed more fat (he is skinny too)..I had him on soymilk and he was always hungry!!! Now he sleeps better/longer and eats/drinks less frequently.

_We used to be vegans and anti-milk before reading NT BTW....we have made a total switch on the milk issue this year!!_ I think commercial milk is very bad though...don't drink it IMO!!

I think that raw dairy can be very beneficial to humans after all the research I have done....many cultures eat raw dairy also and have strong healthy bodies...some cultures drink 1-2 gallons a day!!!

Just a little personal story too--my grandma had a family cow and they drank raw milk with their 6 kids....My grandma is 75 and has great bone density, immunity, and teeth. The children who were raised on the farm drinking the milk have straight teeth and great health still today.


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## Janelovesmax (Feb 17, 2006)

And one more thing I want to say. You mentioned you love milk, so why stop then??? Just make sure it comes from a good source for your piece of mind.


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## candipooh (Jun 22, 2004)

This is a book review of a book called "Milk: A Deadly Poision" It is basic jist of why there is a "big deal" about milk









Quote:

REVIEW of MILK:The Deadly Poison
by Jane Heimlich, author of What Your Doctor Won't Tell You
(Jane Heimlich is the wife of Henry Heimlich, MD, the "Heimlich Maneuver" doctor.)

One of my earliest memories is my father coaxing me to drink milk. "Calling all cars, calling all cars--Jane hasn't finished her milk." You may be applying the same pressure to your children. After all, isn't milk "the most perfect food on earth?" Nutritionists reiterate that we need the calcium in milk to keep our bones strong. At present, celebrities pose with milk mustaches.

You may not want to hear this but what you've been told all your life about milk is an outright lie. Your glass of milk, even low fat, is awash in fat (the equivalent of three slices of bacon), cholesterol, antibiotics, bacteria, and--the most distasteful ingredient--pus.

I suspected that milk was a health disaster back in the Spring of '94. At that time, while researching an article for Health & Healing, a newsletter with a half million subscribers, I learned that the Food & Drug Administration had approved the use of a genetically engineered hormone called "recombinant bovine growth hormone" (rBGH). The alleged purpose of the hormone, a $500 million investment on the part of the Monsanto Company, is to increase a cow's milk output. Considering the glut of milk for the past decade, economic justification for using rBGH remains a mystery.

Injecting hapless cows with a growth hormone raised a red flag for me. In my 20 plus years of health reporting, I've found that when a company interferes with Mother Nature, this cold-blooded exploitation, invariably for economic gain, brings suffering and disease.

This was clearly the case with the bovine growth hormone. I knew that, over the years, pasteurization and homogenization had destroyed most of the natural goodness of milk. The growth hormone was the supreme insult. As dairymen reported, this hormone made our cows sick, namely developing mastitis, thus requiring enormous doses of antibiotics. For this reason, 95 percent of dairy farmers initially refused to inject their cows with rBGH; later, many caved in under pressure.

A more disturbing consequence of the bovine growth hormone is that it increases levels of a powerful growth hormone, IGF-I. IGF-I is a key factor in the growth and proliferation of cancer.

Despite the health threats posed by the bovine growth hormone, I was one of the few health writers taking a critical view of the situation. Starting in 1994, the media assured us that milk from treated and untreated cows is virtually the same. Here they were dutifully quoting the FDA, the American Medical Association, and the World Health Organization. Few bothered to investigate why a growing number of dairy farmers and environmental watchdogs were bitterly opposed to its use.

I wasn't impressed by these scientific assurances from on high. From reporting on alternative medicine, I knew too well how the medical establishment can lie through its teeth. Mainstream doctors continue to label chelation therapy, a life-saving treatment for heart disease, as "quackery," despite its over 30 year track record as a safe and effective treatment.

What was needed to bring the deleterious effects of rBGH to the fore was an intrepid scientist who could confront scientists from these prestigious organizations, speak their language, interpret scientific data, and reveal the facts about the true nature of the bovine growth hormone.

Enter Robert Cohen, with rich experience in biological research and a risk taker--one of his pursuits is mountain climbing. A call came from Mr. Cohen shortly after my July '94 article appeared. A boyish voice crackling with energy. Cohen divulged his suspicions that the FDA's approval of the bovine growth hormone represented not only collusion between Monsanto and the FDA, but a cover-up of epic proportions by the scientific establishment. His three-year fact- finding journey proved him chillingly right.

Reading this book, you will learn that milk contributes to heart disease and increases your risk of breast cancer. You will learn that milk is a poor source of calcium and why, and that milk is a prime cause of allergies and much more. You will learn that milk can even kill your infant.

Cohen doesn't expect you to accept these shocking findings on faith. He takes you by the hand as he uncovers layers of scientific fraud perpetuated by the FDA, with assistance from JAMA, Science News, and even the Cadillac of scientific publications, Science. In digging for scientific facts, Cohen found that the web of deception concerning the bovine growth hormone involved not only key players--FDA and Monsanto--but reached members of Congress as well as a respected medical authority turned Monsanto lobbyist. At times this book reads like a detective story.

Eventually our indefatigable scientific sleuth uncovered the smoking gun--incontrovertible evidence showing that laboratory animals treated with rBGH developed cancer, but he could not induce the FDA to reconsider their approval of the hormone.

My husband, Dr. Henry Heimlich, devisor of the Heimlich maneuver, had a similar experience dealing with the American Red Cross (ARC). Following his discovery that the Maneuver, applying upward pressure to the diaphragm caused the choking object to pop out, he implored the ARC to stop teaching the public to administer back blows to a choking victim, which only drives the object deeper into the airway. Stymied by scientific fraud and bureaucratic blindness, he took his life and death issue to the public.

Robert Cohen has taken the same tack. Reading this meticulously documented book, written in a lively informal style and punctuated with irreverent humor, I feel sure you will be convinced, as I am, that milk is hazardous to your health. Don't worry about what you're going to put on your cereal. Cohen offers plenty of nondairy milk suggestions.

Share the author's findings with your family members and friends. Buy a copy for anyone you care about. Take its message to heart.


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

Yeah, I love milk! I could not give it up even if I had too! But it will be a couple of years until we can buy some land and a cow. Mommastar, I believe it is best to leave the calf with the cow for at least 9 months. Both will be healthier for it, and cows almost invariably produce enough milk to feed the calf and have plenty left over for the people. And if it is a steer calf, it is said the meat will taste much better having grown up on just milk and grass.

The reason it is hard to find raw milk is because it is illegal to buy or sell raw milk. You can only get it if you own your own cow. But in many places, you can buy a share of a cow, then as the partial owner, you can drink milk from that cow. But you need to find a herd that is healthy, and hand-milked. Milk gets contaminated running through hundreds of feet of pipes when machine milked, that's why they have to pasteurize it.


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## Greenie (Sep 27, 2005)

In the book Fit For Life (Buy it!! NOW!!) by Harvey and Marilyn Diamond, it says that caesin blocks the absorption of nutrients. The calcuim in milk is very coarse, and milk is ver mucous causing.

I mean, think about it...

Cows have 4 stomachs.

You would think that they have a more efficiant digestive track, and therefore, an easier time digesting it.

I don't drink milk. I do have cheese and yogurt and butter on occasion.. Trying desperately to cut back.. This is coming from a girl who grew up drinking a gallon of milk a day. All I EVER drank was milk. Now, after not drinking it for 2 years, it groses me out. It's disgusting... And it tasted AWFUL the last time I tried some (and it was CHOCOLATE!)!

And yes. It's made for baby cows.


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## candipooh (Jun 22, 2004)

When I first started to question milk it was because of learning about breatsfeeding. The more I learned about human milk and extended breastfeeding the more cows milk seemed odd to me. My sister had told me for years that "cow's milk is for baby cows" and I thought she was nuts! But the more I learned about human milk the more I questioned cow's milk. Then I found the book "Milk: a Deadly Poison. It was an eye opener. I didn't cut out *all* milk. I still ate cheese and somtimes icecream but a few weeks ago I cut out all dairy. My kids still have some cheese but not much. My husband will sometimes buy cows milk. It is like a rare treat for him. One of my daughter's asks for "daddy's milk" meaning "cow's milk" but my oldest daughter hates cow's milk and will only drink soy silk.


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## Janelovesmax (Feb 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candipooh*
When I first started to question milk it was because of learning about breatsfeeding. The more I learned about human milk and extended breastfeeding the more cows milk seemed odd to me. My sister had told me for years that "cow's milk is for baby cows" and I thought she was nuts! But the more I learned about human milk the more I questioned cow's milk. Then I found the book "Milk: a Deadly Poison. It was an eye opener. I didn't cut out *all* milk. I still ate cheese and somtimes icecream but a few weeks ago I cut out all dairy. My kids still have some cheese but not much. My husband will sometimes buy cows milk. It is like a rare treat for him. One of my daughter's asks for "daddy's milk" meaning "cow's milk" but my oldest daughter hates cow's milk and will only drink soy silk.

sorry, not to start controversy, but speaking of Deadly poisons all I can think of is soy milk.


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## candipooh (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Janelovesmax*
sorry, not to start controversy, but speaking of Deadly poisons all I can think of is soy milk.

Why did I just *know* that someone was going to say that when I said my kids drink soy milk







one step at a time okay?

I am not perfect. Just close to it.







no! but really. I am WORKING on being healthy. i feel soy is better than diary. But not perfect. Give me a break. Sheesh!

I have also put plastic in the microwave. But we are talking abou cow's milk here.


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## Janelovesmax (Feb 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candipooh*
Why did I just *know* that someone was going to say that when I said my kids drink soy milk







one step at a time okay?

I am not perfect. Just close to it.







no! but really. I am WORKING on being healthy. i feel soy is better than diary. But not perfect. Give me a break. Sheesh!

I have also put plastic in the microwave. But we are talking abou cow's milk here.









Ok Sorry! No harm intended! But if you knew someone is going to say something, why say it!
Anyway, forget I said anything. I'm not perfect as well.









Back to cow's milk and to OP. How do you feel when you drink milk?


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## eco_mama (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cjr*
For someone who drinks milk and grew up being told is was the healthiest food for them, it's kind of a insulting to have that phrase thrown at you.

Well, I actually DID grow up drinking cows milk and was told that is was healthy for me. It was when I was pg w/ my dd that I started really questioning milk. I started thinking, Hmm, would I want to be "milked" my whole life after my child is weaned? I just see it totally UNnatural.

The thing that gets me is that cows wouldn't even produce milk their whole lives (meaning...after their calf is weaned) if they weren't milked all the time. It's just not a natural process at all.

This country should have Buffalo everywhere, not cows. Cows were imported from Asia.









I also don't see how anyone should be insulted for other people having other beliefs. Everyone has different ways and beliefs and a freedom to express that. Noone is passing judgement. If you feel insulted then there must be a guilt on your conscious about drinking milk. That's my best explanation...not trying to be rude here, I just understand what has screwed up this ecosystem and the world.

Fact: 25% of the Earths land mass is filled w/ the Asian Cow by man NOT God. -Unnatural-

Peace.


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## magpiedee (Dec 21, 2005)

See, now there's my problem!

Cow's milk = bad
Soy milk = bad

So what do I drink? I need something to take the place of milk, some filling form of protein for breakfast. And yogurt grosses me out. And i've never found a nut or rice milk that was drinkable.

What's the alternative?


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## candipooh (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Janelovesmax*
Ok Sorry! No harm intended! But if you knew someone is going to say something, why say it!

because I like to cause drama.







Just kidding. I guess I didn't *know* someone would say anything but I thought they might. I feel guilty about the soy so I guess I am a little defencive. Sorry!

I actually want a cow for milking. If my dh and middle daughter are going to want cow's milk it is better to get it from a source that has no drugs in it. No growth hormones etc. There is actually a lot I still want to do in the 'eat healthy' part of health. I eat meat from the store







and that has some of the same bad things in it as cow's milk from the store. I am working on limiting it and would love to get rid of it and ONLY 'organic' meat.

I actually heard that raw milk can help with migraines. I tell you...I have been tempted to start drinking cow's milk again. (anything! to help with migraines!)

Quote:

Anyway, forget I said anything. I'm not perfect as well.
















sorry for being defencive.









Quote:

Back to cow's milk and to OP. How do you feel when you drink
milk?








that is a big one I guess. You might want to stop drinking it for a few weeks and then slowly add it in to see how you react.


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## candipooh (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magpiedee*
See, now there's my problem!

Cow's milk = bad
Soy milk = bad

So what do I drink? I need something to take the place of milk, some filling form of protein for breakfast. And yogurt grosses me out. And i've never found a nut or rice milk that was drinkable.

What's the alternative?

The rice or nut milk may have to grow on you. I know that I at first didn't like soy milk but now I love it









I really think that soy is less evil than cow's milk so I will continue to drink it until I find something better. I do look for the certified organic soy milk.


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Why do you need any 'milk'? It doesn't need to be replaced as a beverage. If you want to bake and make sauces, etc, rice or nut 'milks' are fine substitutes.


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## newcastlemama (Jun 7, 2005)

Just skimming the "Dealy Poison" article, it looks like they were talking about _commerical cows milk_ (with all the hormones and antibiotics) I would not drink that either. Raw milk has been building healthy people for 1000s of years...soymilk is a new invention as far as I have researched (I used to drink it too).

Real milk is raw milk from _pastured cows_ that are not treated with all the new meds.

_As far as the fat in raw milk...that's okay because people have been eating a lot of fat for a long time_...it was until the advent of trans-fats, flour, proceesed sugars and vegetable oils that we have 1/2 of people dying of heart disease.

(There are some good books on this--The Milk Book,Nourishing Traditions, www.westonaprice.org www.realmilk.org there is info and more book recs on those pages)

Good luck sorting through it all and happy eating.....Jennifer


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

I grew up on cows milk and drank it until my 2nd son was born. He has a milk soy protein intollerance so I can't drink either. I started on rice milk and the first couple of days I had to choke it down, now I can't get enough of it. I love it! I won't go back to drinking milk either. After reading the article on the amount of pus in cows milk, BLAH!


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## MarcyC (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommastar*
I agree...we are not calves, cows make milk for their offspring just as we make milk for ours.
I also personally have issues with the way the cows are treated and they take their babies away from them and dont let them nurse for very long so we can get their milk...and honestly I feel like there is probably alot of pus and plood and god only knows whatelse, that might be just me being warped though cus seriously i have no proof of that!I probably didnt say that very well but hopefully that makes sense...
I was actually just arguing this with my DD's doctor yesterday...I really do like him but we so do not have the same views! lol

I haven't had time to read through everything, but just wanted to touch on this and one other thing...

DH's uncle runs a dairy and lets the baby calves stay with mom for a long time. I forget how long, but he said he lets the babies stay with mama longer than most other dairies.

He also doesn't use any growth hormones. All of his cows are pesticide and hormone-free. He grows his own corn and alfalfa on his farm to feed the cows so he knows exactly what they are getting.

He's probably in the minority as far as dairy farmers, but just to let you know that all cows aren't treated badly.


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## mommastar (Jan 26, 2006)

I am sure not all cows are treated bad and i dont know any dairy farmers, if i did i am sure my view might be different...no worries, to each their own, we are all different and have different views which is good cus otherwise life would be boring! lol I guess i meant some of the big companies who dont give a rats booty








I think that is awesome that your uncle 'raises' them in an awesome cruelty free way









Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarcyC*
I haven't had time to read through everything, but just wanted to touch on this and one other thing...

DH's uncle runs a dairy and lets the baby calves stay with mom for a long time. I forget how long, but he said he lets the babies stay with mama longer than most other dairies.

He also doesn't use any growth hormones. All of his cows are pesticide and hormone-free. He grows his own corn and alfalfa on his farm to feed the cows so he knows exactly what they are getting.

He's probably in the minority as far as dairy farmers, but just to let you know that all cows aren't treated badly.


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## Peri Patetic (Feb 16, 2006)

Conventional milk = bad
Soy mik = bad
Raw milk = good!

Most of the negative info out there about milk is referring to conventional milk, which *does* have pus, blood, antibiotics, etc. in it. Also, it is a dead substance, whereas raw milk is a living food (just as our breastmilk is).

As far as only babies drinking human milk, I do believe it has been documented that in some cultures, the sick and elderly will also drink mother's milk...


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## mommastar (Jan 26, 2006)

Good point! And why is it that we dont drink our 'breast'milk but will drink cows milk? It's really quite interesting...
Honestly though i dont know much about 'raw' cows milk so i cant say anything there....ok, im done now....

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Peri Patetic*
Conventional milk = bad
Soy mik = bad
Raw milk = good!

Most of the negative info out there about milk is referring to conventional milk, which *does* have pus, blood, antibiotics, etc. in it. Also, it is a dead substance, whereas raw milk is a living food (just as our breastmilk is).

As far as only babies drinking human milk, I do believe it has been documented that in some cultures, the sick and elderly will also drink mother's milk...


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## apple_dumpling (Oct 20, 2004)

:

So if you have a dd who is just over a year, not getting any breastmilk (had to wean due to long term meds at 13 months) and you can't get raw milk anywhere, what would you give them? DD isn't a good eater and won't even take a smoothie most of the time so right now I am giving her goats milk (not raw) as an alternative for the fats... is there something better in the absence of BF?


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## my4magpies (Mar 24, 2006)

my kids used to be avid milk drinker until DH researched it in med. school. Now we only use almond milk..kids at first hated it, but now love it. I even use it sometimes to cook with (comes in original, vanilla and chocolate flavors). Milk makes me sick to my stomach, but just research it, know your facts and do what makes sense to you.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I just wouldn't give them any milk. Lots of cultures do not have milk in their diets and they are healthy. I just make sure to have lots of sources of calcium.- not that I think milk is a good source of calcium anyways.


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## magpiedee (Dec 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Peri Patetic*
Conventional milk = bad
Soy mik = bad
Raw milk = good!

I know! But I live in a suburb and can't get my hands on a raw cow, you know? So what can I drink?

Guess i'll give rice milk another spin....


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## RootBeerFloat (Nov 22, 2005)

:


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## cjr (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:

I also don't see how anyone should be insulted for other people having other beliefs. Everyone has different ways and beliefs and a freedom to express that. Noone is passing judgement. If you feel insulted then there must be a guilt on your conscious about drinking milk. That's my best explanation...not trying to be rude here, I just understand what has screwed up this ecosystem and the world.
I am not insulted that someone believes that cow milk is for baby cows, of course it is...I'm not stupid. That's my point. No guilt here thanks. Doen't twist my words around. When someone asks "what is wrong with milk?" and the only answer they are given is "cow milk is for baby cows", well duh! Don't spout me off some phrase that makes me look like an idiot, give me a true answer. Answer the question. You don't belive in drinking milk, great...give me an itellegent responce that will explain your stance on the subject. Don't patronize me by telling me that "cow milk is for baby cows". I hate it when my words get twisted around to mean something totally different than what was written.


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## candipooh (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Peri Patetic*
Conventional milk = bad
Soy mik = bad
Raw milk = good!

I disagree. If you read the book I mentioned then you find out that all cows milk = bad. So thus **to me** soy milk is the lesser of the two 'evils'


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## candipooh (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *apple_dumpling*







:

So if you have a dd who is just over a year, not getting any breastmilk (had to wean due to long term meds at 13 months) and you can't get raw milk anywhere, what would you give them? DD isn't a good eater and won't even take a smoothie most of the time so right now I am giving her goats milk (not raw) as an alternative for the fats... is there something better in the absence of BF?

I personally believe that if you are going to drink the milk of another species then goat is the way to go.


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## Kewpie (Sep 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Peri Patetic*
Most of the negative info out there about milk is referring to conventional milk, which *does* have pus, blood, antibiotics, etc. in it.

Just wanted to coment on this. Farmers are not allowed to sell the milk that a cow is given while on a course of antibiotics. It's illegal. They have to dump the milk (or I suppose drink it themselves). Big misconception out there, cows can have hormones yes, but milk gets dumped while on antibiotics.

Not that that makes it a whole lot better, just sayin.

My step sister works for Monsanto, she's a Posilac sales rep. Makes for interesting holiday get togethers to say the least!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *QueenOfThePride*
So it's basically a philosophical thing. Nutritionally, we (my family) eat cows, so what's the difference between eating cow meat and cow milk, philosophically? I guess I don't see a difference for my family and my beliefs. Thanks for the feedback!

For me, my thinking is along the lines of it being natural to eat meat, natural to eat eggs, natural to eat produce, and UNnatural to drink the milk of another species. (Natural, as in it is done by many different types of animals and different tribes of people throughout history). I know that there were herdspeople who drank milk, but it was not widespread, kwim?

But, drinking pop (soda) is completely unnatural too, and I still do it occasionally!
I'm trying to cut out dairy based on my belief that it is unnatural, AND because I can't find a dairy farm that doesn't take the calves away from the moms within days. It seems pretty sucky that WE get milk (which we don't need to be healthy) and calves don't (and they DO need it).


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kewpie*
Just wanted to coment on this. Farmers are not allowed to sell the milk that a cow is given while on a course of antibiotics. It's illegal. They have to dump the milk (or I suppose drink it themselves). Big misconception out there, cows can have hormones yes, but milk gets dumped while on antibiotics.

Not that that makes it a whole lot better, just sayin.

It's called a withdrawal period. Every drug given to livestock has a set withdrawal period where the animal can't be slaughtered and milk has to be dumped. It is supposed to be the length of time it takes to get all of the drug residue out of their system. Now I'm thinking that even in a perfect world where no drugs get accidentally into our food supply, the fact that the cow had the drugs might have created antibiotic resistant bacteria, or had some other effect on the animal that might continue to affect the final food product, therefore having an effect on the consumer of that product. (Whew! Was that a run-on sentence!)

Think about it, is there a difference between the overall health of a child who gets antibiotics for ear infections every two months and a child who gets no mainstream drugs?

My plan for my cow of course is to raise her totally on natural food and with the consultation of a holistic veterinarian if necessary.

It seems like most of the anti-milk campaign is against pasteurized, homogenized milk from conventionally raised cows. My question is, 'is there anything wrong with raw milk from a home-raised organic cow?'


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greenie*
In the book Fit For Life (Buy it!! NOW!!) by Harvey and Marilyn Diamond, it says that caesin blocks the absorption of nutrients. The calcuim in milk is very coarse, and milk is ver mucous causing.

But are they talking about raw milk or processed milk? And is mucus always a problem?

Quote:

I mean, think about it...

Cows have 4 stomachs.

You would think that they have a more efficiant digestive track, and therefore, an easier time digesting it.

And yes. It's made for baby cows.








Actually when a calf suckles, the milk bypasses the first three stomachs and goes into the 4th stomach, which is the true stomach. The posture of the calf stretching out its neck and tilting its head up makes these flaps of tissue in the digestive tract form a tube that funnels the milk directly into the fourth stomach. The first, and largest, part of the digestive tract is the rumen. It's purpose is to ferment grass for about 12 to 24 hours. Cows chew their cud and reswallow into the reticulum. The reticulum balls up the fermented grass and passes it to the omasum. The omasum is like the pages of a book and it absorbs a lot of water and grinds the food down more. The Abomasum is the true stomach and performs true chemical digestion. If a calf gets milk into the rumen it can make them sick, because milk isn't meant to be fermented. It will get sour and stale and cause bloat. Milk needs to be digested right away.

I know cow's milk is for calves, but are cows for us to eat? Are pigs? Are chickes? Are eggs?


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## newcastlemama (Jun 7, 2005)

QueenOfThePride
My plan for my cow of course is to raise her totally on natural food and with the consultation of a holistic veterinarian if necessary.
It seems like most of the anti-milk campaign is against pasteurized said:


> ((Queen of Pride-I want a Jersey cow too! I hop to get one in the fall...))
> I would say this would greatly benefit our health if you are not allergic. I just bought another raw milk gallon/cheese/butter today! I used to be _anti-milk and vegan_....the research for pro-(raw)milk is very convincing...enough for me to totally switch. Of course the bonus to getting your milk from pasture fed cows is that they are treated humanely, that was important to me.
> 
> *I would also add that maybe all the bad press about milk is all from studies done on people drinking the processed-hormone milk!* There is a world of difference between raw pasture milk and homogenized un-organic milk..that milk is not a health food.


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## candipooh (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *QueenOfThePride*
My question is, 'is there anything wrong with raw milk from a home-raised organic cow?'

It depends of who you ask. The "not milk" man and author of the book "Milk: A Deadly Poison" say yes, raw is better than store cow milk but still very bad for you. If you go to the notmilk.com web site it has tons, and I mean tons of reports and other info as to why it is. I have to warn you though...his tone is harsh.

Here is a tid bit about raw milk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *not milk.com*
The Wall Street Journal published a letter from a raw milk
advocate, Sally Fallon. That letter described Fallon's
mistaken impression that unpasteurized milk is safer than
the pasteurized version which most Americans drink. Nothing
could be further from the truth. I decided to write a
letter to the Wall Street Journal, which follows. Will they
print it? That remains to be seen.

Find his letter to the Wall Street Journal at http://www.notmilk.com/forum/463.html

edited to add.....

I am not totally convinced but I just thought I would throw out this side of the coin.


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## eco_mama (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cjr*
I am not insulted that someone believes that cow milk is for baby cows, of course it is...I'm not stupid. That's my point. No guilt here thanks. Doen't twist my words around. When someone asks "what is wrong with milk?" and the only answer they are given is "cow milk is for baby cows", well duh! Don't spout me off some phrase that makes me look like an idiot, give me a true answer. Answer the question. You don't belive in drinking milk, great...give me an itellegent responce that will explain your stance on the subject. Don't patronize me by telling me that "cow milk is for baby cows". I hate it when my words get twisted around to mean something totally different than what was written.

Here are just a few of the negative things caused by milk consumption (and also the dairy industry as a whole):

1. Calcium scale build up in the body.
2. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of waste every day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with no toilets, sewers, or treatment plants
3. Causes osteoporosis, since their high-protein content leaches calcium from the body

Here are some further harmful things about milk:

http://milksucks.com/index2.asp

http://www.chrysalisyog.homestead.com/milk.html

http://www.**********/general26/milk.htm

http://www.notmilk.com/

http://www.marysherbs.com/heal/heal-mlk.htm

Also, when I say "cow milk is for calves." That's really how simple it is. Obviously alot of people don't believe milk should ONLY be for calves because look @ how many people drink it. I wasn't trying to say that you specifically were offended but it seemed to have come off like that. What I mean't was that people "in general" who were raised to believe cows milk was good for them and continue to believe that as adults shouldn't be offended of someone elses opinion. My intentions aren't to "insult" anyone. But if some were offended by my opinion (and also lots of facts) then that leads me to believe that they have a guilty conscious.


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## Kewpie (Sep 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *QueenOfThePride*
It's called a withdrawal period. Every drug given to livestock has a set withdrawal period where the animal can't be slaughtered and milk has to be dumped. It is supposed to be the length of time it takes to get all of the drug residue out of their system. Now I'm thinking that even in a perfect world where no drugs get accidentally into our food supply, the fact that the cow had the drugs might have created antibiotic resistant bacteria, or had some other effect on the animal that might continue to affect the final food product, therefore having an effect on the consumer of that product. (Whew! Was that a run-on sentence!)

Good info!







Of course there is the whole downstream affect of abx. But I hear time and again, how people don't want drink cow's milk because of all the abx in it. Just not true.

This does bring up an interesting issue for me though. Cows on organic dairy farms who would conventionally be treated with abx are not, even if they might really need it. My step-sister visits all sort of farms, organic and not. She said there are some really disgusting organic farms whose cows are filthy and always sick. But since no abx are allowed, the cows are milked and milk sold even with pneumonia and other bovine illnesses. Makes me







. And there lots of gentle and humane organic farms as well. It was eyeopening for me to realize that organic can be just as cruel as mainstream (for lack of a better word).

Organic or not, I'm cutting back our intake of dairy. I have no source for raw milk, and not all together comfortable with it. And I'm sure my neighbors wouldn't appreciate a cow being "pastured" on our postage stamp of a yard!


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## rareimer (Oct 20, 2003)

i do believe we are meant to eat meat, and maybe even eggs. other species do it. but no other species drinks the milk of another species, especially in adulthood. so when i say it is for baby cows...that's exactly what i mean. the only reason we've all been brought up on cows milk is because cows are slow and dumb and easy to domesticate and milk. not because it is good for us. it's an easy source for fat and calcium and protein...but not necessarily a good source. i truly feel we are healthier without it, even if it's raw milk, or goat milk, or whatever. we just weren't designed for it. most people "tolerate" it, but i don't think it can really be "good" for us. (i do believe probiotics are good for us though...)

that said, we do eat yogurt. i love it, dd loves it. we do eat some cheese. but we don't drink any milk. i would cut all the dairy out except i *like* it and we can tolerate it digestively.

i do think alot of NT makes a ton of sense...but we do limit dairy nonetheless. if other families like it and they tolerate it well, more power to em! but in no way can it be necessary for humans, and i don't think it can be compared to meat that way.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Uh, I have to say that I don't think it's true that there's no antibiotics in the store milk. Penicillin is and over the counter veterinary drug. Any farmer can treat his own cows without anyone's knowledge. Unless everything is tested 100% of the time, it's gonna be in the milk. The Untold Story of Milk is a good one and I also have The Milk Diet, but haven't read it yet.

We used to drink organic store bought milk, then I decided that cow milk was for cow babies and it was also doing some terrible things for my health. We switched to silk soy, then I learned that drinking or eating soy was about as good as drinking motor oil. Dropped that and switched to goats milk. I have a very serious auto immune disorder that became untreatable by meds and had tried every other alternative treatment you could think of. Finally, I decided to read up on raw organic milk. The books said it would help, but I was scared to death to try it. Finally, I decided that switching to raw organic milk couldn't leave me in worse shape than I already was, so anything was better than nothing.

This is the first spring in three years that I haven't been housebound. In fact, I have no symptoms at all.







I firmly believe this is 100% directly related to the raw milk. I have been making homemade kefir and yogurt as well. So, I say there's nothing wrong with raw organic milk. If you can't get raw organic milk, I'd drink water, filtered water of course. I will never again drink pasturized milk or soy milk.

To each their own though. Fine if you don't drink milk, but if you do, make sure it's raw organic milk from pastured cows.


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## Janelovesmax (Feb 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
Uh, I have to say that I don't think it's true that there's no antibiotics in the store milk. Penicillin is and over the counter veterinary drug. Any farmer can treat his own cows without anyone's knowledge. Unless everything is tested 100% of the time, it's gonna be in the milk. The Untold Story of Milk is a good one and I also have The Milk Diet, but haven't read it yet.

We used to drink organic store bought milk, then I decided that cow milk was for cow babies and it was also doing some terrible things for my health. We switched to silk soy, then I learned that drinking or eating soy was about as good as drinking motor oil. Dropped that and switched to goats milk. I have a very serious auto immune disorder that became untreatable by meds and had tried every other alternative treatment you could think of. Finally, I decided to read up on raw organic milk. The books said it would help, but I was scared to death to try it. Finally, I decided that switching to raw organic milk couldn't leave me in worse shape than I already was, so anything was better than nothing.

This is the first spring in three years that I haven't been housebound. In fact, I have no symptoms at all.







I firmly believe this is 100% directly related to the raw milk. I have been making homemade kefir and yogurt as well. So, I say there's nothing wrong with raw organic milk. If you can't get raw organic milk, I'd drink water, filtered water of course. I will never again drink pasturized milk or soy milk.

To each their own though. Fine if you don't drink milk, but if you do, make sure it's raw organic milk from pastured cows.

Thank you for your story. We could find millions of links on websites how raw milk is good or how it's bad, but nothing can change a real life experience.
I also heard a lot positive reactions to raw milk, in terms how people feel a lot better with their allergies, etc...but notmilk propaganda (I'm talking Robert Cohen, etc...) will go out of their way to prove it's not true.


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

The biggest thing I have taken from NT and WAP foundation is eating traditionally, i.e. the way your ancestors ate. In the area where my ancestors are from, there are no cows so people do not drink cow's milk. While there are goats, people don't drink goat's milk (although they do eat goat meat). All that being said, I think milk was a mainstay for people's of certain regions and so they are biologically equipped to handle it better than other folks. I was thinking about giving my family raw milk but when I stopped to think about it, I realized the traditional diet I would be trying to follow would not have milk. But since I grew up on regular milk, I've substituted rice milk for every "milk" thing I need. I initially hated the taste (I was a hard core soy milk person once but had to eliminate soy) but now, it's okay. I also started to eat store-bought yogurt (although made from grass fed cows) and I haven't noticed any adverse reactions so I may try to make yogurt from raw milk if I can find a source. I generally use it in smoothies and it makes my gut feel better. I think what's most important here is how your body reacts to things. I used to make that argument that "no other species" drinks the milk from another species. I think I'm realizing that there's lots of things humans do that "no other species" does.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Janelovesmax*
Thank you for your story. We could find millions of links on websites how raw milk is good or how it's bad, but nothing can change a real life experience.
I also heard a lot positive reactions to raw milk, in terms how people feel a lot better with their allergies, etc...but notmilk propaganda (I'm talking Robert Cohen, etc...) will go out of their way to prove it's not true.

You're very welcome! I hope it can help someone else too. I just recently got a call from one of our investment guys and the verdict is in on my life insurance policy as well. I have NOT been rated! My condition is not only rateable, but can also be grounds for complete denial of life insurance. Alas, I have finally gotten to the point of being able to get life insurance with rates of any other normal, healthy 28 year old.







It sounds silly, but it's a great feeling!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rootzdawta*
I think I'm realizing that there's lots of things humans do that "no other species" does.

Very good point.


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## cjr (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by cjr
I am not insulted that someone believes that cow milk is for baby cows, of course it is...I'm not stupid. That's my point. No guilt here thanks. Doen't twist my words around. When someone asks "what is wrong with milk?" and the only answer they are given is "cow milk is for baby cows", well duh! Don't spout me off some phrase that makes me look like an idiot, give me a true answer. Answer the question. You don't belive in drinking milk, great...give me an itellegent responce that will explain your stance on the subject. Don't patronize me by telling me that "cow milk is for baby cows". I hate it when my words get twisted around to mean something totally different than what was written.

Here are just a few of the negative things caused by milk consumption (and also the dairy industry as a whole):

1. Calcium scale build up in the body.
2. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of waste every day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with no toilets, sewers, or treatment plants
3. Causes osteoporosis, since their high-protein content leaches calcium from the body

Here are some further harmful things about milk:

http://milksucks.com/index2.asp

http://www.chrysalisyog.homestead.com/milk.html

http://www.**********/general26/milk.htm

http://www.notmilk.com/

http://www.marysherbs.com/heal/heal-mlk.htm

Also, when I say "cow milk is for calves." That's really how simple it is. Obviously alot of people don't believe milk should ONLY be for calves because look @ how many people drink it. I wasn't trying to say that you specifically were offended but it seemed to have come off like that. What I mean't was that people "in general" who were raised to believe cows milk was good for them and continue to believe that as adults shouldn't be offended of someone elses opinion. My intentions aren't to "insult" anyone. But if some were offended by my opinion (and also lots of facts) then that leads me to believe that they have a guilty conscious.
*ARE YOU ACTUALLY READING WHAT I AM WRITING?* *I AGREE WITH YOU THAT MILK IS BAD FOR YOU, FOR ALL THE SAME REASONS YOU STATED. ALL I'M SAYING IS TO SAY THAT RATHER THAN JUST SAYING "COW MILK IS FOR BABY COW'S" HOLLY COW!* One little comment and I get slammed.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Who's slamming you?


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## 2Sweeties1Angel (Jan 30, 2006)

I don't really like milk, but I do sometimes have a glass of chocolate milk. Otherwise I only use it for cooking. Now, ask me to give up my cheese and you're going to lose and arm! I seriously will NEVER give up cheese unless I develop and allergy because I love it.

Oddly enough, my OB is the first person who ever told me cows milk isn't necessarily good for humans. I didn't know that until 2004 when I was pregnant with DD and couldn't drink milk without vomiting. I was afraid of not getting enough calcium and she told me I was better off not drinking milk anyway and getting my calcium through plant sources. The WIC office on the other hand pretty much told me I was depriving my baby by not drinking milk that I couldn't hold down anyway. Idiots.


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## rareimer (Oct 20, 2003)

i don't think anyone is slamming you, cjr. i thought this was actually a really great discussion...there are so many different points of view!


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## eco_mama (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cjr*
*ARE YOU ACTUALLY READING WHAT I AM WRITING?* *I AGREE WITH YOU THAT MILK IS BAD FOR YOU, FOR ALL THE SAME REASONS YOU STATED. ALL I'M SAYING IS TO SAY THAT RATHER THAN JUST SAYING "COW MILK IS FOR BABY COW'S" HOLLY COW!* One little comment and I get slammed.

You suggested providing some "intelligent" information for the OP about milk so I took your advice and posted some. I'm not trying to "slam" you. Sorry if you feel that way. Definitely not my intentions here, whatsoever. Only that last little paragraph was directed @ you. I was trying to explain myself since we've had a bit of a misunderstanding about what I was actually trying to say in the 1st place.

Let's end the milk drama. Please.


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## mindycat72 (Dec 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EcoMama7*
cow milk is for calves
human milk is for babies

IMHO

True, but even snakes will drink it if it's offered.


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## AnnC (May 2, 2006)

When Weston Price went to Switzerland, he found people living on raw milk, cheese, butter, cream and rye bread, with a few vegetables in season. They were strong, healthy, had almost no cavities, no TB. That is what the consumption of raw milk and dairy products is based on at the Realmilk website.

I use lots of dairy because:
1. I have a source for raw milk from a local cowshare where I can see the cattle and how they are raised, and how they are treated, and I know the farmer;
2. I adore raw milk and all its products!
3. I am of Dutch, English, and German descent, so it's traditionally appropriate for me.

One could also argue that it's unnatural to cook food. And also to consume grains, since that is part of the agricultural revolution, as is animal herding and milking. And if you feel that way, it's quite appropriate to approximate a hunter/gatherer diet. But Price found traditional groups living in excellent health on the products of agriculture and animal husbandry, so those choices are also appropriate.

Just my two cents.
Ann


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## Amila (Apr 4, 2006)

I agree with the whole "milk is for baby cows" thing. Someone best described milk to me as "A chemical, biological, and bacterial cocktail" Basically I think of it as a body fluid- white blood cells, pus, blood, the whole bit. I stopped drinking it about a year ago, and try to limit my other dairy as well. I try to use a variety of other milks- not just soy. I really like almond, oat, and hazelnut milk. I do still eat cheese, yogurt, and ice cream, but I buy organic whenever possible. I could be totally wrong here, but I recall reading somewhere that raw milk is even worse because of the risk of disease? Corrent me if I am wrong. Milk has been highly correlated with a number of cancers, crohns disease, asthma, diabetes, and about a billion other disorders. Babies who drink cows milk have a much higher risk of contracting Type 1 diabetes, which is why they are supposed to be at least a year old before consuming it (Like formula isn't made from cow's milk







: ) Anyway, I think that too much animal protein in general is bad. I would look into reading the China Study- it is a fabulous book. I like www.notmilk.com -It is extreme, but his info is all legit.


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## AnnC (May 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amila*
I could be totally wrong here, but I recall reading somewhere that raw milk is even worse because of the risk of disease? Corrent me if I am wrong.

Clean raw milk from healthy pastured cows is perfectly safe, but labor intensive and not very profitable. Dirty milk (pus, blood, other unmentionables) is not healthy, whether pasteurized or not, but cheaper to produce. Ultrapasteurized milk can be shipped anywhere and has a shelf life of forever, so it provides more profit for the large dairies and distributors.

[/QUOTE] Milk has been highly correlated with a number of cancers, crohns disease, asthma, diabetes, and about a billion other disorders. Babies who drink cows milk have a much higher risk of contracting Type 1 diabetes[/QUOTE]

These conditions have been correlated with *pasteurized, homogenized milk,* and also with nonfat dry milk, which is always added to lowfat and skim milk commercially.

Most milk that is available in this country is indeed unhealthy. However, if you would like to drink milk, with a little research good milk is available. And, as I posted earlier, healthy populations such as the Swiss and Maasai tribes in Africa have lived on large amounts of raw milk for centuries, if not millennia. There were also healthy populations that had no milk products at all. It's your choice.

Ann


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## spsmom (Jun 19, 2004)

yeah, well my body doesn't need that cookie i just ate 10 minutes ago but i sure enjoyed it! (just having a little fun!)

I believe milk is like many other things in our diet, moderation, moderation, moderation.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganf*
Yep, I think that's all that needs to be said. My children and I are NOT cows.

Besides, humans are the only species who drink milk after the age of weaning. Our bodies just don't need it after that.

- Krista


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## CrunchMama (Jan 29, 2005)

Wow, what a discussion! Good stuff!

So, someone on a yahoo group I belong to said it best, I think, by saying that humans are opportunistic eaters. We will adapt and eat anything, and we have over the course of our existence: milk, meat, vegetables, snakes, bugs, larvae, seal, whale blubber, etc.

What are we really meant to eat? Good gracious who knows?! After our mothers breast milk I think the answer depends on what's available, where your peeps came from and what makes your body perform optimally.

We drink raw, organic cows milk (from grass-fed cows) at our house, not because we're cows, but because where we live it's a *high quality food product*. I would never drink factory milk again or give it to my ds. With soil depletion, gmo foods and the crap that is in our air, drinking water and very bodies, I am thankful for finding what I believe to be a healthful food.

Again, we're opportunistic eaters. Which is why humans have been able to live all over the world, in every climate. Traditional peoples have eaten totally opposite diets (compare the Masai and Inuits), yet each have thrived. We are adaptable and must find what nutritionally superior food there is to find in our little slice of living in the present world.

The politics of food, proper animal husbandry and respect for the animals who's lives we take are very important issues that merit much thought and discussion as well.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to make some raw ice cream.









pax,
Danae


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Re: No other species drinks the milk of another

Minimally, making milk of another animal part of your diet would require opposable thumbs to milk. Possibly, you could just nurse as a suckling would. There aren't a whole lot of animals who could milk another animal and probably not many that would have the thought to suck on the teats of another.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CrunchMama*
So, someone on a yahoo group I belong to said it best, I think, by saying that humans are opportunistic eaters.









: Good point!


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

And here I sit with two pictures on my notice board: A cat feeding baby hedgehogs, and a jersey cow feeding to baby orphan goats.

Who says no other species drinks another's milk?

This isn't all that uncommon either.

I think one thing that is wrong, is to extrapolate animals to humans.

We aren't "just" another species.

And there are thing that certain animal species eat that I would never touch. Would you eat something that carrion birds eat?

In my opinion, man isn't a species that can be equated with cats, rats, dogs, goats or cows.

For a start, none of them build their own barns, or "care" for another species.

"man" has the potential to be an incredibly caring race that looks after the environment, or a corporate care nothing extractive industry.

I prefer not to look at the lowest common denominator.

IN MY CASE, when I look at ancestry, even in the highlands of scotland, apart from Oats, and other grains, like barley, people did rely on eggs, and also sheeps milk, and highland cattle milk. Animals in the winter, slept in a partitioned area of the house so they could survive the winter. Fact is, "we" wouldn't have survived without milk, fermented products and cheeses that these animals supplied us with.

You could draw another analogy. One of my friends grew up in the outback of Canada, and they used to have to do a lot of drying, canning, freezing, and otherwise "unnaturally" preparing foods to carry them over for months.

What other species is stupid enough to do that, huh?

Even in this country the native people would "can" bird, but cooking them, and putting them in gourds, plugged with their own fat, surrounded in a sort of hay, and buried deep in food stores.

Monkeys don't do that either do they?

I think that attitudes towards foods can get extremely precious, and the stress and fanaticism that can be extended to one or other point of view isn't helpful for the immune system.

Some of the most fanatical people I've met, are so zealous, they look like weeds.

So, QOTP, chill eh?

If you want two interesting books to read, try these from Amazon:

"The Miracle of Milk" Bernarr Macfadden

"The Untold Story of Milk" by Ron Schmid.

That might balance some of the other side.

And in the end, don't listen to us. Oh, and tell your husband that the correct approach with regard to the "Maker's" diet, isn't to listen to the person that 'talked' about the "Maker's" diet, but to consult the Maker Himself, and ask Him what He thinks.

After all, if its from a scriptural tack, don't you think you'd consult the maker, and find out what the installation guarantee, and the instructions manual might contain?


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Oh yeah, regarding The Maker's Diet...the Bible speaks very highly of milk!!! There is one specific verse that says something like, "You will have plenty of goat's milk for your family" and it's meant as a blessing, so obviously the writers of the Bible considered it a good thing. And weren't they supposed to be guided by "the Maker"?


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Oops wrong thread. Too many pages open at once.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

What stock they had in the middle east also depended on where they were. Some areas wouldn't sustain cows, but were better suited to goats... that doesn't mean that "goat" applies to the middle east, Alaska and Saraha....


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