# Differences in Raising Boy vs. Girl



## mrskennedy (Dec 24, 2006)

I'm not sure if this belongs here, but it's always made me curious. I've heard people IRL who say there are many differences between raising a boy and raising a girl. But no one ever elaborates on what those are. Can you give me some insight here? What are these extreme differences? Are they practical, philosophical, emotional, etc? Or is it as simple as accepting they're different? But even 2 boys or 2 girls can be quite different... So what's the big deal? Why do some people seem to have trouble raising one or the other?


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## Novella (Nov 8, 2006)

Well, I have only 2.5 years experience with having a boy in the house, but *boy*







is it ever different!

Our two girls are oldest. They are very different personalities. The oldest isn't a "tomboy" but she is more reserved and intellectual, her interests are more worldly and science-based. The younger one is completely immersed in the girlie-girlie pink and frou-frou side of life. She is emotionally much less resilient. She seems destined for an arts-related career. So that's our "arena" of parenting girls.

Our son is certainly his own personality, in terms of his social awareness etc. But we have found that a _lot_ of the stereotypes one hears of with boys just *fit*. He is so much more exuberant with his physical play. Our house is just filled with rowdy boy movements. Even though we had tons of girls' toys, he gravitated toward the trains and tractors and played with them in "boy" ways (eg. he drove them into head-on collisions and applied growly truck sounds even though no one had ever modeled this type of play for him. Our girls would sit dolls in the cars and park them, or drive them serenely without sound effects). Our oldest daughter catches onto to physical instruction quite quickly (downhill skiing, bicycling) but it is *nothing* like the inborn finesse our little boy can apply to these lessons. We have noticed this same contrast between the son and daughter of our friends (as have they).

The differences are *so* stark, in so many little things every day that we laugh to think about those 1960s studies about male and female roles and "nature vesus nuture".









That being said, to us these differences (to-date, anyway) have simply been something to observe and delight in. We are so glad to have had children of both genders, _and_ to have had more than one of each gender as it helps to see what is personality-driven and what is gender-driven. Beyond that, I don't think we are doing much to parent them differently based on gender. We try to work with each child's personality, their strengths and weaknesses, of course. So that does not help me answer "What's the big deal? and Why do some people seem to have trouble raising one or the other?"


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ManitobaMom* 

But we have found that a _lot_ of the stereotypes one hears of with boys just *fit*. He is so much more exuberant with his physical play. Our house is just filled with rowdy boy movements. Even though we had tons of girls' toys, he gravitated toward the trains and tractors and played with them in "boy" ways (eg. he drove them into head-on collisions and applied growly truck sounds even though no one had ever modeled this type of play for him. Our girls would sit dolls in the cars and park them, or drive them serenely without sound effects). Our oldest daughter catches onto to physical instruction quite quickly (downhill skiing, bicycling) but it is *nothing* like the inborn finesse our little boy can apply to these lessons.










:


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## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

The differences can be huge. It's nearly impossible to explain to someone who's never "experienced" a boy.

They are physically rowdy in a different way than girls. To me, they can be much more emotional than girls (also in a different way). Their egos are very fragile and tend to get bruised easily. Their friendship formations are totally different. The energy they exude is amazing. It's just....different!!

It can be difficult sometimes to find playgroups when boys are at young ages, especially if moms only have daughters. They don't understand the play of young boys and the physicality (IME) can bother people sometimes.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Well, girls don't pee in your face when you're changing their diaper!

Seriously, I think 'difficulty' is in the eye of the beholder. Neither of my kids is more difficult than the other, they just present their own challenges. It's really hard for me to say whether it's just personality or whether it's a true gender difference.

Ds has always been into "toys with wheels" - trucks, trains, etc. He played a little with dolls, but very little. the majority of his play involves trucks, buses, fire trucks and emergencies. I do believe I still have "My Very First Truck Book" memorized. If you're a mom who hates trucks, that might be trying, but I actually kind of enjoyed learning all about them.

Ds was very late to get into pretend cooking. The first 6 months that we had a pretend microwave, he used to put the trains in and watch them go around! (It was like a turn-table at a train yard for him.) He's more active than dd, but actually less physically adept. I remember watching him play in the church nursery once with a little boy, and they were doing the 'cars crashing' thing. They'd take their cars, crash them, back up and do it again. A friend of ours (a girl, ds' age), wanted to join and was mystified by this play. She grew up in an 'all girl' house and didn't 'get it'. But, I've seen other girls who have.

Dd sat down and tried to change a diaper on a doll at 14 months. Floored me! It certainly wasn't anything we'd modeled. In fact, most of the play she'd seen modeled was trucks (she's younger than ds). She's always been more of a caretaker, very into pretending that she's a baby animal. She's into playing mom in a way ds never really was. (And can I say that I HATE being the baby!!! Let me drive a garbage truck any day!)

Dd's play interests are actually much more varied than ds'. She'll play firefighter with him. She'll drive trains. And then she'll turn around and have her doll's go somewhere. She's more sedentary than her brother (more likely to be reading, playing fine motor things), but is actually physically stronger - she can do chin-ups, slide down the fire pole, etc. She's mildly 'girly' (has decided she likes pink recently, definitely likes sparkles!).

Things they both play:
-Cooking (though ds got into this late, and does it more at daycare than at home)
-School - they both love to play 'school' - i.e going to daycare, with me being the student. Ds started this when he started daycare at age 2 and has continued.
-Outdoor play - climbing, running, scooters, etc.
-Board games

In terms of parenting, dd is actually more difficult to parent right now because she's feistier. She's more vocal about her complaints, she's more persistent, she's more likely to simply refuse to do something. She's also a bit more resilient than ds is - more able to recover from emotional upset with a minimal amount of time/input from me. Ds is very very sensitive emotionally and physically (He's got sensory processing issues) and needs a much lighter touch (which is hard for me to do, as I'm pretty intense myself.)


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ManitobaMom* 
He is so much more exuberant with his physical play. Our house is just filled with rowdy boy movements. Even though we had tons of girls' toys, he gravitated toward the trains and tractors and played with them in "boy" ways (eg. he drove them into head-on collisions and applied growly truck sounds even though no one had ever modeled this type of play for him. Our girls would sit dolls in the cars and park them, or drive them serenely without sound effects).

YEP! I have only boys (2 DS's and a DSS) and they do seem to be hardwired for rough play. Even DS2's toy baby stoller has become a death chariott for any doll brave enough to sit in it. He rams it into walls, runs full speed through the house, taking turns around the couch at breakneck speeds.
Growing up, there were the three of us girls and then my two little brothers came along. They are fairly tame boys, but our leggos, which once were turned into ranches with horses and mild-mannered farmers, were suddenly guns and swords and trucks that broke apart when you drove them full speed into the walls. Toy guns were never allowed in our house growing up, but bananas and sticks became weapons. While we played "indians" by making little camps in the back yard and grinding up leaves on rocks, my boys make fortresses in the back yard and play war.







:

I don't know what to say. Nothing seems to change the basic nature of the little buggers


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

My kids are young still (4.5 and 17 months) and I don't see any difference that I would chalk up to their sexes. Aside from their genitals, they LOOK like the same kid, too.

My son gravitates toward "girl" toys (we have both and both are pretty equally played with by my daughter) and he is a lot more sensitive than his sister was about rough play.

I am also not looking for differences that I can ascribe to gender, as I don't believe in any of that. When I comment on how much my son gets into things, people always say, "Well, he's a boy," but in truth I think it has more to do with being second-born (I have several friends whose second-born daughters are a lot more active than their first-born whatevers) .. . plus, there's just MORE for him to get into with his sister's toys lying around.

Neither of my kids are hard to raise, they're both easy going, happy people.


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

I grew up in a large family of all girls ... and then I had a boy.









I'm still amazed at how much more physical he is than a majority of the girls his age. He plays very rough and physical, can make a "gun" out of anything







and took right away to trains, bulldozers, race cars .. all the sterotypical "boy" toys.

I've bought him countless dolls and he does nothing with them, even after I try to initiate games of caring for them.

I do sometimes wonder if I didn't shelter him enough from society and media and he just took on the usual gender role.









Regardless, I LOVE having a boy and while he can be more difficult in a restaurant or quiet place because he's active and rowdy, I wouldn't trade him for anything.







:


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## Alkenny (May 4, 2004)

I have 1 girl (aged 14) and 2 boys (almost 12 and 3), so I have a little experience under my belt.









When they are littler, I have to say that there wasn't much difference in their interests...all of mine have been nurturing (baby dolls, cooking, purses, etc.)...what is stereotypical girl play.

The differences I have seen are that the boys were much more physical (running, jumping, and DARING) than my girl was, whereas she was much more verbal and a 'thinker'.

The biggest difference came around 3-4 years old...when they started hanging around more kids of their same gender. I think that influenced them alot in what their interests are now.


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## daytripper75 (Jul 29, 2003)

It seems to me that raising any two children, regardless of gender, is going to have different experiences. Everyone is different!
I've found that my girl is more spirited, more emotional, more independent. My boy is laid back in all areas of life. I don't know that being spirited or independent are female qualities but I do know my two children are night and day different!
I've known since the day he was born that my relationship with my son was always going to be less complicated than my relationship with my daughter. I think to really know whether it is different to raise boys from girls I would have to have more of each to compare! Since that isn't in the cards I will just have to guess...I think it is mostly different because each child is different.
Suzy


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## ~gilli~ (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *woobysma* 
YEP! I have only boys (2 DS's and a DSS) and they do seem to be hardwired for rough play. Even DS2's toy baby stoller has become a death chariott for any doll brave enough to sit in it. He rams it into walls, runs full speed through the house, taking turns around the couch at breakneck speeds.

Totally!


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## LeftField (Aug 2, 2002)

See, I have two boys and they are just not rough. And they are very cautious, so they are not physically daring at all. My oldest son is very mellow and reserved to the point where he often seeks out girls to play with; until he was about 5, he was intimidated by boys his age because most do seem to be louder and rougher. My youngest son is much more physical than my oldest, but in comparison to many boys I see, he's pretty easy. I think it runs on a spectrum, I guess. With my youngest, he is prone to charging into me like a giant puppy, at which point he likes to have his hair ruffled up; he enjoys hands-on play. I don't know what girls are usually like, though. My sister has two daughters and one is very reserved while the other one was very physical and rough.

I do think there are innate differences between the sexes, but I think they run on a spectrum. My boys are pretty gentle and cautious and they tend to be androgynous in play. They have displayed stereotypical "boy" tendencies without any encouragement from us, like the obsession with trains (what IS that??), cars, machines, pirates and the like. They also lovingly push dolls around in their baby stroller and wear butterfly wings, however.

I just wanted to put that out there. Not all boys are rough, daring and physically talented.


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## mommajb (Mar 4, 2005)

I would love to chime in here and say that my experiences have not been centered on gender. Each child at each age has had their tendencies but if I had to use generalities, birth order works for our family rather than gender.

The expected load of female hormones in this house is overwhelming. Just ask my son.


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## Jennyfur (Jan 30, 2007)

I have 3 girls and 1 boy, and my son is the least physical and aggressive of all my children. He is quiet, bookish, contemplative and thoughtful.

He is 13 and has a twin sister. I will say that now that my twins are teens, I am SO thankful to have a son. Where the girls are very vocal about everything (which is great, though it has its moments), my son is much more peaceful.

Just being around him makes me feel relaxed. Sometimes we'll look at each other when the girls are being especially rambunctious, and there's a connection between us.

I love, love, love having a son to raise. He's my sweetie.


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LeftField* 

I do think there are innate differences between the sexes, but I think they run on a spectrum.

I absolutely agree. It's the only thing that makes sense (to me, anyway). I do believe there are neurological gender differences but certainly it's not so simple as that.

Not all boys are as insanely energetic as mine--(he actually seeks out bigger boys to play with and has done this since he was around 3-- though he likes girls too, but he would rather sulk than play with girly toys)--but that doesn't mean that no gender difference comes into play at all.

Actually I think each personality can run on quite the spectrum as well. My DS, fi, does need and enjoy downtime and he can be pretty mushy with those he loves the most.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

So many differences....

Facts:

Little girls will get irritations or even infections in the diaper area more easily than boys. They can have the occasional bubble bath, but not very often. The soap causes irritation, and it really can be a problem. WHen they potty train, they tend to get more urinary tract infections from the wiping. You just have to watch more closely.

At about 5th grade, you will REALLY notice the "mean girl" stuff. No child is immune to it. It breaks your heart. (unless you have the mean girl) It's heartwrenching. But, it is a part of life. _*disclaimer* My best friend has the mean girl, and I absoulely LOVE this kid. She is smart and wonderful. But, other girls in her school don't think she is so wonderful. My daughter won't even associate with her anymore. But they were friends in grade school._

Girls at this age start to make bad choices. Nothing serious, but they will say something about a friend that wasn't too nice, the girl they said it to will run and tell the girl it was said about. The girl's feelings will be hurt, she will be angry. The one who started the "rumor" feels really bad, her feelings get hurt, she is angry. The only one who doesn't feel bad is the middle girl who ran and did the telling. This goes on for at least a year or two until everybody learns from their mistakes.

There are so many generalizations, that are really just part of who your child is. I love the girliness of my dd. But, I might say the opposite if I had a tomboy girl.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

I have boy/girl twins and was bound and determined not to be sexist / biased in what we encouraged them to do. They had all the same toys, we read the same books, played the same games with them. We encouraged our son to let out his feelings and talk about his emotions and cuddled him gently when he cried. We encouraged our daughter to be daring and try physically adventurous things (learning to use a scooter or whatever) and to gain an interest in bugs and worms. Everybody read Richard Scarry. We were very careful about what they were exposed to - absolutely no TV for example, and I made sure to screen books first to make sure not to read about damsel-in-distress stuff or guns or whatnot.

But in spite of the pains we took, nature found a way. Dd has ZERO interest in trucks and smash-a-boom things. Ds has ZERO interest in dolls. The things they both like to do - trains, sandbox, dress-up - they do totally differently. At night they each get to choose a special toy to take to bed. Ds sleeps with a matchbox car under his pillow. Dd has a collection of baby animals whom she cares for with surpreme gentleness and tucks in with a kiss.

Oh yeah... they're different, lol. But that doesn't mean it's ok to encourage boys to be chest-thumping emotionally repressed aggressive jerks, or girls to be nice-at-any-cost doll-obsessed "princesses" either. Obviously.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

The point is that NONE of us have raised our children on an isolated island exposed to no forms of socialization. Our kids are all socialized - by us people who even if we mean well were raised in a sexist world, by random people in the grocery store who may have no interest in nonsexist childrearing, by the media, etc.

We live in a culture with deeply entrenched ideas about gender. It is flat out silly to suggest that it proves that differences are nature rather than nurture because less than a hundred years after women even got the right to vote that we don't have total gender equality.

What we know is that people vary a lot from one person to another. I know men who are deeply sensitive and women who are not. Women who are deeply sensitive and men who are not. Men who are disinterested in sports and women who are. Women who aren't interested in sports and men who are.While we may have theories that some interests or abilities are more common in men or women, it seems difficult to assert it is innate when so many of us don't fit the gender stereotypes. If nature was so all encompassing why does it flat out not fit for so many of us?

What I have observed as a parent is that many people are so eager to embrace anything they see that conforms with a gender stereotype. When our son was a baby we dressed him up in a blue sleeper with trains on it and we heard "wow, look at that big guy he's going to be a football player" and we dressed him up in pink and we heard "isn't she so sweet". If you don't believe this difference exist find a baby, dress 'em up and see what happens. Or, trying having an active girl as your first born and a more sedate boy as your second born...and compare the comments. I've seen people INTERPRET behavior through a gender lens and you will hear comments seeking to fit kids into gender stereotypes.

All people contain traditionally masculine and traditionally feminine traits. As parents what I'd hope we'd do is help each kid have access to a range of opportunities and experiences with the hope that they can grow up to be the person they are meant to be whether that fits with someone's stereotype or not.


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## mamaveggie (Mar 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
The point is that NONE of us have raised our children on an isolated island exposed to no forms of socialization. Our kids are all socialized - by us people who even if we mean well were raised in a sexist world, by random people in the grocery store who may have no interest in nonsexist childrearing, by the media, etc.

We live in a culture with deeply entrenched ideas about gender. It is flat out silly to suggest that it proves that differences are nature rather than nurture because less than a hundred years after women even got the right to vote that we don't have total gender equality.

What we know is that people vary a lot from one person to another. I know men who are deeply sensitive and women who are not. Women who are deeply sensitive and men who are not. Men who are disinterested in sports and women who are. Women who aren't interested in sports and men who are.While we may have theories that some interests or abilities are more common in men or women, it seems difficult to assert it is innate when so many of us don't fit the gender stereotypes. If nature was so all encompassing why does it flat out not fit for so many of us?

What I have observed as a parent is that many people are so eager to embrace anything they see that conforms with a gender stereotype. When our son was a baby we dressed him up in a blue sleeper with trains on it and we heard "wow, look at that big guy he's going to be a football player" and we dressed him up in pink and we heard "isn't she so sweet". If you don't believe this difference exist find a baby, dress 'em up and see what happens. Or, trying having an active girl as your first born and a more sedate boy as your second born...and compare the comments. I've seen people INTERPRET behavior through a gender lens and you will hear comments seeking to fit kids into gender stereotypes.

All people contain traditionally masculine and traditionally feminine traits. As parents what I'd hope we'd do is help each kid have access to a range of opportunities and experiences with the hope that they can grow up to be the person they are meant to be whether that fits with someone's stereotype or not.









:
I took a Sex & Gender class my sophmore year of college and this was the entire topic of the class. As much as I tried to keep things equal for dd, we don't live in a bubble. I don't know the sex of our next one, but if it is a boy, I'm going to try the dressing social experiment.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

I for one do question how much extremely subtle societal pressure from random brief encounters with "the outside world" 10 month-olds pick up on.







The differences I saw between my boy/girl twins were ones I was expressly trying to avoid and yet, there they were smacking me and dh in the face, like, yooooou and your high-falutin gender _theories_.







Furthermore, they occured a long time before my kids had any influences in their lives outside the home.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Oh yeah, like interest in trucks and cars is genetic? Come on, seriously, HOW long have trucks and cars been around, and WHY would any child be predisposed to liking them?


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## LeftField (Aug 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal* 
Oh yeah, like interest in trucks and cars is genetic? Come on, seriously, HOW long have trucks and cars been around, and WHY would any child be predisposed to liking them?

This is actually something that I do question...my oldest son, who owned NO vehicles of any kind, was very fond of cars and trains before he was verbal enough to even express it (like excited pointing and grunting in the parking lot). One of his earliest words was "Mini"; he loved Minis and he could point them out quicker than I could spot them. We finally told people to start buying him toy vehicles (I had actually been avoiding them until that point). He had no group socialization influences, no daycare or preschool. His most frequent peer contact was with his same-aged cousin, who is a girl.

Now, his father is very technical and he is very good at what he does. What I've wondered is if my husband gave genes that would lend themselves to technical abilities...that would logically manifest in liking mechanical things at a young age. In other words, humans are brilliant at innovating...many of those innovation tendencies involve building and creating...maybe the genes that influence that are simply showing up in small kids in the form of vehicle obsessions and such. Perhaps those same kids, had they lived in earlier times, would have been similarly fascinated with carts and tools and such. To me, it's not that out there to consider that there is something to a genetic predisposition toward mechanical things.


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 
I for one do question how much extremely subtle societal pressure from random brief encounters with "the outside world" 10 month-olds pick up on.







The differences I saw between my boy/girl twins were ones I was expressly trying to avoid and yet, there they were smacking me and dh in the face, like, yooooou and your high-falutin gender _theories_.







Furthermore, they occured a long time before my kids had any influences in their lives outside the home.

I tend to agree from my own experience. While I don't dispute that there are sexual pressures form society to fit everyone into little "gender-specific boxes", I also think there are some basic differences between the sexes.
In our house, we don't tend to be overly "boy centered", despite me being the only one with ovaries. Both the boys grew up with both stereo-typical "boy toys" and "girl toys" (I hate those terms, btw) and I still noticed differences. Even when DS2 is wearing the pink and purple tie-dyed shirt I made for him and pushing around his toy vaccuum, he's still more agressive than my nieces. Long before he was "socialized" as a boy, I saw differences between him and my friends' daughters.

Each kid is still different and unique, though, and I stop short of expecting certain behaviors just because of a child's sex.


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## starry_mama (May 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal* 
Oh yeah, like interest in trucks and cars is genetic? Come on, seriously, HOW long have trucks and cars been around, and WHY would any child be predisposed to liking them?

Both of my sons started making Vroom vroom noies at a very young age and "driving" their crackers, shoes, cows, etc.

I only have boys, but they are as wild and crazy as kids can be. I'm sure there are girls out there who act like my kids do, as well as boys who are much different.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Quote:

I also think there are some basic differences between the sexes.
Like what? Besides penises and vaginas? And even there there is tremendous variety. Seriously, what basic differences are you talking about? Because as a mother of a son, I don't see what you are talking about. I see that there are infinitely more differences between one person and the next than there EVER is a decisive difference between all men and all women. Even when studied and tested, the differences are SINGLE digit differences, not wholesale differences like some people would make you think there are.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Oh yeah, like VROOM is genetic too? My son never made the vroom noise till someone else did it, and even then he was 3.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

There are differences in male and female brains and males and females typically have different hormones and different levels of the hormones that we share. Because of these facts alone, I think it's baseless to explain away all differences in behavior with societal influence (either overt or subtle). I also don't think it does our children any favors.

That's not to say that all boys are one way and all girls are another way. IMO, male/female behavior exists on a continuum with the extremes at either end and some overlap in the middle.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal* 
Oh yeah, like VROOM is genetic too? My son never made the vroom noise till someone else did it, and even then he was 3.

It's not that the VROOM is genetic. It's that the tendency to gravitate toward the VROOM may just have something to do with having a penis.

I'm not sure I understand why that's such an offensive idea. No one is saying that boys are better. Like I said, I don't think we do our children any favors by pretending that there are no differences. Of course you address the child as an individual, but his/her sex can certainly shed some light on how that individual operates.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal* 
Oh yeah, like interest in trucks and cars is genetic? Come on, seriously, HOW long have trucks and cars been around, and WHY would any child be predisposed to liking them?

The love of trucks didn't come first. What came first was an absolute fascination with HOW THINGS WORKED. With things that moved. With TOOLS. Things that did things.

Just happens that cars and trucks bring all those togther!







My son gets on the ground and rolls and train back and forth to examine how the reciprocating rods move the wheels etc. My daughter makes trains that have people on them and pick up the mommies and daddies and take them to exciting places.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal* 
Oh yeah, like VROOM is genetic too? My son never made the vroom noise till someone else did it, and even then he was 3.

All language is learned, of course.


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal* 
Like what? Besides penises and vaginas? And even there there is tremendous variety. Seriously, what basic differences are you talking about? Because as a mother of a son, I don't see what you are talking about. I see that there are infinitely more differences between one person and the next than there EVER is a decisive difference between all men and all women. Even when studied and tested, the differences are SINGLE digit differences, not wholesale differences like some people would make you think there are.

Maybe "basic" is the wrong term because it does tend to point to an over-reaching sex-based characteristic. Speaking from my own experiences with people of all ages, though, I've found that males tend to be more agressive & impulsive, while females tend to be more nurturing and contemplative. That general trend holds true for a lot of kids I've known, too.

We could argue examples of adults and kids who don't fit those descriptions all day & I'm not asserting that people can't be a blend of many different traits, but I still think there are "some" genetic/hormonal/instinctual/etc differences between males and females (how they act on those has a lot to do with their upbringing and social surroundings, though).

I don't think boys are genetically pre-dispositioned to make Vroom noises and play football any more than I think girls are genetically inclined to wear dresses and take ballet. I think the way they approach the world and socialize with their peers IS different in a subtle, but noticable way, though.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I honestly never noticed much difference. Sure, each child is different, but I can't say that any of my kids had gender-specific personalities.

DD2 was quite physical as a toddler and preschooler- more so than DS was at around the same ages. DS is a rather sensitive boy. All 3 of them played with dolls and trucks and balls and blocks as toddlers and preschoolers. Around preschool age the girls got super interested in Barbie dolls, and DS got super interested in things with wheels (or rather, his interest continued) but at that point they were exposed to societal expectations.

I'm not denying that there can be real differences between boys and girls. I'm just saying that I didn't see it in my own family. Maybe I just have a very "feminine" boy.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

My brother and I turn most stereotypes about males and females on their ear - have since we were tiny, according to my mom. I still believe there are differences, though.


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## insahmniak (Aug 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal* 
Oh yeah, like interest in trucks and cars is genetic? Come on, seriously, HOW long have trucks and cars been around, and WHY would any child be predisposed to liking them?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal* 
Oh yeah, like VROOM is genetic too? My son never made the vroom noise till someone else did it, and even then he was 3.









Your posts are cracking me up!

I think people generally have their minds made up about this issue and believe what they want to believe. Even the ones that claim to have been converted by their own experiences with children probably experience some relief in concluding that their children are "normal."

There is so much societal baggage when it comes to gender. My daughter is almost always in a dress. Also note that she is also very, very socially aware and looking for social acceptance! This is her personality, and is quite likely that she gets this from her dad who is also very socially aware (Gasp! But he's a HE!) because I am very NOT socially aware (Gasp! What's wrong with her?!). Anyway, when she first put on a dress (I didn't buy them for her for the "freedom to play" factor - but she got one from a neighbor) we went to the local coffee shop and boy oh boy did we get tons of "Don't you look precious!" "Hi, sweetie!" "I like your dress!" She must have thought she'd found the secret key to The Land of Acceptance and Attention. I remember this first episode very very clearly.

I think that dress is by and large a social clue that helps people, and often strangers, connect or relate. Suddenly others could tell she was a She and that meant they could pull out the She script to relate to her (ie make a remark about beauty or appearance). My daughter bought it, and now we have a closet full of dresses and yet another girl on the road toward self-consciousness.

And I guess I'm here to admit that, my own girlie-girl and all, my mind's made up: Gender stereotypes are socially based. I'm convinced that my daughter's fascination with dresses is completely a product of these stereotypes. I base this on my own experience in my partnership - an insensitive woman who can't cook partnered with a supersensitive man who can cook....boy can he cook! And sometimes (gasp!) he even wears a skirt!


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ohmtaretu* 
I think people generally have their minds made up about this issue and believe what they want to believe.









I think you're right... BOTH sides have their minds made up. That's why these threads go round and round. Some people have their minds made up there's a difference... some people that there isn't.







I was firmly in the latter camp until I had children of both sexes too.


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## insahmniak (Aug 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 
Some people have their minds made up there's a difference... some people that there isn't.







I was firmly in the latter camp until I had children of both sexes too.

I can appreciate your experience. Even so, can you admit that n=2 is on the somewhat small end of a statistical sample size and perhaps not on the order of epiphany?


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

I'm confused. Are we talking about stereotypes or are we talking about behavior? Or are we talking about the link between them (either one as the impetus for another)?


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

I do NOT believe there are differences.

I do NOT think you need to raise children of different sexes differently.

As a matter of fact, I think you are
doing a disservice to your children if you treat them differently.

I have known all sorts of boys and girls, friends, relatives and my two children (one of each) and I think that any differences between the children were always to do with a mix of unique personality and then socialization, particularly attitudes of the parents and/or primary caregivers.

I agree with the PP who poo-pood the idea of cars and trucks being "boyish"....how silly!! Don't we all drive?


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 







I think you're right... BOTH sides have their minds made up. That's why these threads go round and round. Some people have their minds made up there's a difference... some people that there isn't.







I was firmly in the latter camp until I had children of both sexes too.

I was never in the latter camp and still am not even though I have an 8 year old boy and a 5 year old girl.


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## prancie (Apr 18, 2007)

I was watching my 2 nieces and one nephew the other day. The 2 girls, aged 4 and 2 were caring for a doll. My nephew was swinging like a monkey from the treadmill handrails. There is a profound difference.


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## insahmniak (Aug 16, 2003)

I'm not sure you can separate them. Wouldn't behavioral differences lead to stereotypes, and stereotypes lead to behavioral differences? Isn't it a self-feeding system?


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ohmtaretu* 
I'm not sure you can separate them. Wouldn't behavioral differences lead to stereotypes, and stereotypes lead to behavioral differences? Isn't it a self-feeding system?

Yes! It seems like the assumption here is that stereotypes lead to behavioral differences. I'm not so convinced that the opposite isn't true. Not wholly, but at least partially.


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## insahmniak (Aug 16, 2003)

A chicken and egg issue, isn't it?


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal* 
Like what? Besides penises and vaginas? And even there there is tremendous variety. Seriously, what basic differences are you talking about? Because as a mother of a son, I don't see what you are talking about. I see that there are infinitely more differences between one person and the next than there EVER is a decisive difference between all men and all women. Even when studied and tested, the differences are SINGLE digit differences, not wholesale differences like some people would make you think there are.


You need to look into brain sex. More and more scientist believe it is spectrum.

Once the baby zygote sex triggers in there are distinct brain and hormonal differences in the developing zygote. Then you should include material womb environment uterine testosterone can play a part in homosexuality (brain development) (can't find exact links).

http://www.wadsworth.com/anthropolog...men_women.html

This is a neat read if you can get your hands on a free copy http://cnr.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/11/2/190.pdf

This article is more about marriage but brings up differences from birth....these are biological. I think these biological differences can cause use to parent differently. http://www.enotalone.com/article/11527.html Nature causing nurture. But at the same time nurture can change nature (look at how unmedicated circ can effect brain-pain response development).

http://courses.biology.utah.edu/carr.../lecture36.pdf (haven't read this one through)

Then you got to include how hormones cause differences in development and brain function. How pre-teen/teenage hormone dumps on our kids bodies can mess with their mind. Testosterone works differently than estrogen

male and female hear differently http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/412256

Women hear better than men and in a wider frequency range (can't find link at moment). This is/can be why females can think males are yelling when the male perceives they are only being loud. This better hearing can cause us to nurture differently. This hearing difference can be why you have to get louder to reach boys and why boys might be louder.....they just don't hear as well (they often get punished for being loud and the noise less tolerated). It might also explain why girls acquire Langiuage skills earlier which would/could cause brain development differences. Also the quicker to communicate can cause more socialization and better patiences (there for more positive interactions). They typical later speaking boy/s labeled bad because they don't ask for toys or understand (hear) how to do it right so they get "punished" more for being bad. This is how/what I mean by nature effecting nurture and why I think we should be very aware of how nature effects behavior.

************
Then you have some labeling issues. When we talk aggression we think male a societal wrong assigned sex characteristic. Male and Female are aggressive it is HOW they are aggressive are stereotypical different. Boys typically are more physically aggressive while girls are typically more verbally aggressive (we are talking toddler).

Science also defines things male and female when they should be talking in different terms like: body with male sex organs with Atypical male brain (or atypical female or some other better labeling) type brain.

*****************
Science is coming out with more and more information. We should be careful to not swallow it hook line and sinker but at the same time realize that the gender neutral brain is not true also.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I'm a little tired. So, maybe I am misunderstanding the argument here.

Are some of you saying that boys and girls behave differently because of outside influences?

That if a boy and a girl were raised exactly the same, at the same time, with no outside influences, that there would be no way (other than appearences) to tell the difference between a boy and a girl?

That the ONLY thing that is different (other than personality) is a penis vs a vagina?

What about boys who were raised as girls? Or girls who were raised as boys? Kids with ambiguos genitalia. They are often assigned a gender. Often the parents and doctors are wrong. You can name your child Lucy, call her a girl, buy her girl's things, and yet, in 18 years, you have man who's life is torn apart. HE never liked girls clothes. HE always wanted to be a boy. Being a boy or a girl is part of WHO they are.

Hormones are what make a huge difference in WHO we all are.

(Again, I may be misunderstanding what you are saying)


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

> [What about boys who were raised as girls? Or girls who were raised as boys? Kids with ambiguos genitalia. They are often assigned a gender. Often the parents and doctors are wrong. You can name your child Lucy, call her a girl, buy her girl's things, and yet, in 18 years, you have man who's life is torn apart. HE never liked girls clothes. HE always wanted to be a boy. Being a boy or a girl is part of WHO they are.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Yes, but then it goes the other way as well. Folks who grow up knowing they are not their biological sex. So if you are born a male, get male hormones, have everyone around you saying and teaching you to be a male, and you STILL inside are a FEMALE, then what?
> ...


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Oh, and one other thing, WE all have BOTH hormones in varying degrees. Not all cultures ascribe the same traits to the same sexes either.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

LeftField said:


> This is actually something that I do question...my oldest son, who owned NO vehicles of any kind, was very fond of cars and trains before he was verbal enough to even express it (like excited pointing and grunting in the parking lot). One of his earliest words was "Mini"; he loved Minis and he could point them out quicker than I could spot them. We finally told people to start buying him toy vehicles (I had actually been avoiding them until that point). He had no group socialization influences, no daycare or preschool. His most frequent peer contact was with his same-aged cousin, who is a girl.
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 
I for one do question how much extremely subtle societal pressure from random brief encounters with "the outside world" 10 month-olds pick up on.







The differences I saw between my boy/girl twins were ones I was expressly trying to avoid and yet, there they were smacking me and dh in the face, like, yooooou and your high-falutin gender _theories_.







Furthermore, they occured a long time before my kids had any influences in their lives outside the home.

There is research that shows even parents who profess commitment to nonsexist childrearing practices speak differently to boys and girls from the time they are born using more active words for boys and a softer tone for girls.

And, I totally question the idea of no influences in their lives? Did you live in a bunker? No contact with grandparents, neighbors, friends, people in the grocery store? Were you raised in a gender free land somewhere? 95% or more of baby clothing in the average store is gender identified, I'd say it starts from birth but with ultrasound now for many it starts before birth.


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## witchbaby (Apr 17, 2003)

i find myself pretty shocked by the difference between my girl and boy, daily even.
someone above me mentioned the stereotypes just FIT. k has never shown huge preference towards anything, so we had a wide array of toys. then m comes along and is after anything with wheels, anything that makes noise, anything he can throw. if you can build it, well, obviously it was meant to be knocked down and with gusto. he rushes into everything-- he fell head-first off the bed yesterday, so he climbed up and did it again on purpose!
k walked late, talked super early. m was crawling at 5 months, walking at 9 and still only has 3, maybe 4 words.
right now, i'm watching them play in their doorway. k has decided she is a cat and is trying to stack plastic bins to climb. when she gets down, m picks them up and throws them.
i'm laughing hysterically. i'm lax in the gender roles, everyone is free to choose in this house (extends to the adults, trust me







: ), but, man, i look at m and think BOY.


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## LeftField (Aug 2, 2002)

Roar said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *LeftField*
> ...


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

So far, my boy does not fit the stereotypes. He is a lot calmer. My daughter is way more physical. They both play with dolls, kitchen, trains, trucks, etc equally.

Anyways, aside from energy levels, I've yet to deal with them differently/


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## amma-la (Jul 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jessy1019* 
My kids are young still (4.5 and 17 months) and I don't see any difference that I would chalk up to their sexes. Aside from their genitals, they LOOK like the same kid, too.

My son gravitates toward "girl" toys (we have both and both are pretty equally played with by my daughter) and he is a lot more sensitive than his sister was about rough play.

I am also not looking for differences that I can ascribe to gender, as I don't believe in any of that. When I comment on how much my son gets into things, people always say, "Well, he's a boy," but in truth I think it has more to do with being second-born (I have several friends whose second-born daughters are a lot more active than their first-born whatevers) .. . plus, there's just MORE for him to get into with his sister's toys lying around.

Neither of my kids are hard to raise, they're both easy going, happy people.

It is interesting to say you don't believe in any inborn gender differences. I know there is a lot of weight given to the societal influences in accounting for the behavioral differences of boys verses girls. However, it is important to make note of the physiological factors at work also. Boys and girls have very different biological hardwiring in their bodies - not something which can easily be "nurtured" out of a boy or "rough played" out of a girl. For example, boys have a higher proportion of rod cells in their eyes as opposed to girls who have more cone cells. rods perceive motion and cones percieve color and texture. therefore, boys are NATURALLY more interested in play that involves motion whereas girls might gravitate to more stationary art-based or emotional role-playing. The distribution of M and P cells in the eyes make it so boys are inclined to blues and greens and silver, and girls more towards red and yellow and orange. I don't know why these biological differences seem offensive to some people. We can rejoice in our differences, a boy and a girl compliment each other well and i don't understand the need for them to be the same. equalily in terms of value i can understand. we shouldn't devalue any gender. but equality in terms of homogenizing gender roles just seems a little unnatural to me. i just gave birth a week ago to my beautiful daughter and i have one son who is a year and a half. i look forward to encouraging them both to behave and explore the world how they see fit.
Dr. Leonard Sax has an excellent book about the differences of boy and girls coming from a physiological perspective called Why Gender Matters. I don't necessarily agree with all his parenting approaches but it really gives incredible insight into the biological effect on the gender issue. http://www.whygendermatters.com/#1 this is a good site for a quick overview


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
There is research that shows even parents who profess commitment to nonsexist childrearing practices speak differently to boys and girls from the time they are born using more active words for boys and a softer tone for girls.

And there's research showing differences between boys and girls regardless of upbringing or culture.

No one is going to win this argument, lol... even the scientific community can't have this conversation without it getting ugly lol. I think we have to agree to disagree!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar*
And, I totally question the idea of no influences in their lives? Did you live in a bunker? No contact with grandparents, neighbors, friends, people in the grocery store? Were you raised in a gender free land somewhere? 95% or more of baby clothing in the average store is gender identified, I'd say it starts from birth but with ultrasound now for many it starts before birth.

Yes, as a matter of fact I live underneath a mountain in my gender-free bunker, and we only allow sage green and butter yellow into our home.














:

You're going to have a really hard time convincing me that a 6 month old is influenced by sporadic run-ins with random people whom they don't even know or associate with themselves in any way or remember from one visit to the next, much less pay excrutiatingly close attention to every nuanced thing they do and have that totally override the other 23.5 hours in their day and their parental influences.







:


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

amma-la: What a fascinating post!

Quote:

I don't know why these biological differences seem offensive to some people. We can rejoice in our differences, a boy and a girl compliment each other well and i don't understand the need for them to be the same. equalily in terms of value i can understand. we shouldn't devalue any gender. but equality in terms of homogenizing gender roles just seems a little unnatural to me. i just gave birth a week ago to my beautiful daughter and i have one son who is a year and a half. i look forward to encouraging them both to behave and explore the world how they see fit.















:


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## LeftField (Aug 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 
You're going to have a really hard time convincing me that a 6 month old is influenced by sporadic run-ins with random people whom they don't even know or associate with themselves in any way or remember from one visit to the next, much less pay excrutiatingly close attention to every nuanced thing they do and have that totally override the other 23.5 hours in their day and their parental influences.







:

And what does it mean when people insist that your infant or toddler son is a girl? Ds1 had such beautiful curls and eyelashes that, regardless of what we dressed him in, people would tell us what a beautiful daughter we had.









But seriously, in our case, I actively *tried* to nurture the feminine things. If I had a bias, it was probably a feminine bias. I figured that males have *very* strong cultural influences and restrictions that affect the way they think and behave, both from society and also from other males. They actually seem to be more inhibited than women, because while there is strong support for "girl power" and such, there is not similar support for men to nurture their feminine side. Since I figured the macho influences would be so strong in most of their lives, it was my job to create some balance in their early years. I bought them dolls and butterfly wings. I heavily expose them to the arts, because I love the arts and I think most men think the arts are way too effeminate; they are inhibited. I want my sons to be whole people, not just macho men. I want them to know that it's OK to like pretty things and to be nurturing. I have tried *very*hard to instill and nurture this.

Subsequently or coincidentally (I don't know), they are gentle little people and they do have an appreciation for pretty things. But they still exhibit some tendencies, many early, that seem related to their maleness. I do not believe they are born as blank slates. I think that they come with not only genetic programming, but also with gender/sex differences in their brain and hormones. Yes, it's not absolute. But I still think the differences are there.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I'm not saying boys and girls aren't different, but I don't think there is a way to tease out the culture from the biology.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 

You're going to have a really hard time convincing me that a 6 month old is influenced by sporadic run-ins with random people whom they don't even know or associate with themselves in any way or remember from one visit to the next, much less pay excrutiatingly close attention to every nuanced thing they do and have that totally override the other 23.5 hours in their day and their parental influences.







:

I never suggested the influnence only comes from random people half an hour a day. Gender socialization is pervasive. It comes from parents who were raised in a sexist culture, from media, from people, etc. etc. etc.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
I never suggested the influnence only comes from random people half an hour a day. Gender socialization is pervasive. It comes from parents who were raised in a sexist culture, from media, from people, etc. etc. etc.

Right, but babies aren't exposed to "culture" very much and certainly not media. What the ads look like in Glamour magazine may be an interesting topic but not particularly applicable to shaping behavior in an infant.

And if any example of early gender differentiated behavior is immediately met with "well the parents must subconsciously be sexist pigs" then there's not much room for this debate to grow, is there?


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

It's hardly that parents are subconsciously sexist pigs. It is that our culture is completely surrounding and in every single thing. We cannot separate ourselves from it even if we don't notice it. It is like fish and water.

That is why we will never know how much is biology and how much is culture.

For those who are biological hardliners in this debate, how do you explain boys who act like stereotypical girls and vice versa?


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

One of the reasons I personally found my experience with boy/girl twins to be so shocking is that they had the exact same environment -- in utero, post-natal, as infants. Each was held constantly, each was attended to instantly, each was snuggled and protected. The thing about being AP is you don't exactly let your boys wail to toughen em up or withhold feedings to keep your dd skinny, kwim? They were media-free. I was extremely careful about the books we read to them - obviously no Disney stuff or princess stuff but also no subtle sexist stuff either. We had completely gender neutral toys that both were encouraged to play with and had free access to. I went to a famously liberal/feminist women's college and yes I took a zillion sociology and anthropology and psychology classes all about gender and feminism and culture, so I get that argument in spades. The other people in their lives were pretty darn progressive... AP playgroups with little boys wearing dresses with long glorious hair and nursing still at the age of 4 and little girls wearing navy blue hand-me-down overalls and not a single pink toenail in the bunch -- THAT was my kids' norm, not princess girly-girls and aggressive boys. My son never hurt a soul and no one ever hurt him. And yet... somehow... much to our surprise... it still happened that we noticed differences between dd and ds that went down gender lines. Now you can and will continue to argue how culture is infused into everything and the thing is, the culture MY KIDS were exposed to was predominantly AP/NFL/progressive/feminist and hyper-attuned to gender stereotyping.







Now, I'm sorry but what's happening on billboards in Times Square and airing on the Fox Thursday night lineup just doesn't matter, nor does what people in suburban Ohio think about boys wearing pink dresses. But I still saw it.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I haven't found much of a gender related difference in my kids.

DS1 was always very energetic and physical, in addition to being artistic, very verbal and very loving. He's never been very interested in car/truck toys and has always loved both dolls and action figures. He's a born diplomat, quite nurturing and never much liked guns - but he _loves_ swords! He has a tremendously "even" and resilient personality, and has always talked his way out of problems, as opposed to getting into fights.

DD is also very verbal and loves to draw, print, colour, etc. She's also more aggressive than my two boys put together, and while she loves her dolls, she's as likely to hurl one across the room as cuddle it. She's very sensitive and volatile and gets very angry at people very easily. We used to have problems with her throwing things, to the point that she broke a couple of dishes. She's even more physical and energetic than ds1 and seems to live her life in a slow boil of frustration. She loves to play fight and loves dress up...and princesses. She doesn't like to cuddle and is very sparing about kissing and hugging people. She grabs toys, shoves her brothers, and is the loudest of my three, by far. She loves sticks and play-fighting...into swords, and not really into guns, much like her big brother.

DS2 is not verbal at all. He doesn't seem interested in talking. He loves to shoot people with sticks, and seems fascinated with cars and trucks...but he doesn't play roughly with them. He's a total cuddle-bug and loves to give me, his dad, his siblings, his toys (stuffies, cars, blocks - whatever) hugs and kisses. He's just a very snuggly, happy, laid-back little person. He also laughs more than my other two combined...although with a little one as solemn as dd, that's not hard.

If I were going to make any gender assumptions based on my kids, I'd conclude that girls are more emotional, volatile and violent, and boys are more nurturing, loving and artistic. However, I don't think anything of the kind - I just think that's the way my kids have played out, in terms of temperament.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 
Right, but babies aren't exposed to "culture" very much and certainly not media. What the ads look like in Glamour magazine may be an interesting topic but not particularly applicable to shaping behavior in an infant.

That indicates a fundamental lack of understanding of what constitutes culture. And, really it is entirely silly to me to suggest that people in this country don't have specific ideas about gender. I don't know how anyone who has ever been in any store that sells baby clothes could begin to assert that for even a minute.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 
And if any example of early gender differentiated behavior is immediately met with "well the parents must subconsciously be sexist pigs" then there's not much room for this debate to grow, is there?

Nope.

What I'd say is this: Personally we haven't seen early gender differentiated behavior with our son. It simply wasn't there. Close friends who were committed to nonsexist childrearing also didn't see such behavior with their children. If someone wants to argue it is truly all innate then it should be in all children. As one poster here put it - the differences between individuals are greater than differences based on sex.

My argument is not at all that the goal is to get all children to equally like trucks or dolls. Rather, that all human beings have traits both masculine and feminine. Given the long term and continued embracing of gender stereotypes in the culture most children don't really have the opportunity to fully embrace all parts of themselves and this is unfortunate because we all lose out. What we do know from psychological research is that people are more androgynous tend to be happier and more fulfilled.

In the end if we transported the boys and girls to a magic island where they could be raised free from gender expectation I have no idea if boys would like trucks more than girls do. And, I don't see it matters even a tiny bit. What does matter is that all children have the opportunity to develop into the people they are meant to be and we are really, really, really far from this goal.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 
One of the reasons I personally found my experience with boy/girl twins to be so shocking is that they had the exact same environment -- in utero, post-natal, as infants.

Your sample of two tells you that kids conform to gender stereotypes. The broader sample of people who have posted tells us something else. Many people have posted that their children don't conform to gender stereotypes.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 
AP playgroups with little boys wearing dresses with long glorious hair and nursing still at the age of 4 and little girls wearing navy blue hand-me-down overalls and not a single pink toenail in the bunch -- THAT was my kids' norm, not princess girly-girls and aggressive boys. .

I'd love to hear more about your playgroup.

Would you say there were equal parts moms and dads there at the group? The moms were as likely to work outside of the house as the dads? Everyone was dressed in all gender neutral clothing even the parents? And, none of the parents believed even the tiniest bit in traditional gender roles?

I can say I attended a what would be considered very hip AP playgroup. What I saw were all the parents in attendance were nursing moms. Many, even the educated ones, believed in radically different roles for men and women. Sure they were educated enough to call themselves feminists and to say they believed in nonsexist childrearing. But in reality many believed that due to nursing men had a lesser role in parenting and the gender division in the home of child care and housework was pretty darn traditional (though of course dads provide more childcare than a generation ago and there is lip service that things are equal - statistics tell the true story there).


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

It's interesting to me that the gender differences being spoken about here in order to disprove any differences are basically societal manifestations or characteristics the very definition of which are subjective - nurturing, aggressive, gentle, sweet, sensitive, emotional, etc.

In other words, those who assert that gender stereotypes are baseless are limiting themselves to those stereotypes to prove they don't exist. I think that really just dooms this conversation to going round and round in circles forever.

What about differences that are biologically and physiologically determined. For example, a previous poster detailed the differences in the construct of the eyes. That would presumably lead to a difference in perception which would undoubtedly have an impact on the internal workings and the outward manifestation. The way we visually perceive the world impacts the way we respond to it.

Differences in the brain could impact the way one communicates, for example. Not necessarily how much a child talks, but the way s/he processes language and uses words. It seems odd to me to argue that there are no inherent differences between males and females when our brains are different. Our brains are our control centers, aren't they? Also, the very fact that we have differing levels of hormones would impact our behavior. Why is that being ignored? And, to get very basic, let's look at other mammals in the animal kingdom and the very obvious differences between males and females. Is that just socialization, too? We are still mammals, aren't we, and driven by instinct to at least some degree? Or are we dismissing that, too?

And one more interesting thing to think about: Perhaps there *are* inborn differences and they are being socialized out of children by parents determined not to have them fall prey to what they perceive as baseless gender lines. Probably not, but it's cool to consider.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
It seems odd to me to argue that there are no inherent differences between males and females when our brains are different. Our brains are our control centers, aren't they?

What hopefully we all know as parents is that brains change based on experience.

To me the point is that all people should have a range of choices available to them. I find it funny that on MDC where most folks abhor labeling or putting kids in a box based on a category that there is such an embracing of doing so based on gender. Do you see how that is at all limiting to children? What is the message to kids who don't conform to gender stereotypes - does that make them somehow unnatural?


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
What hopefully we all know as parents is that brains change based on experience.

Of course. But there are differences from the beginning and some of those differences are retained.

Quote:

To me the point is that all people should have a range of choices available to them. I find it funny that on MDC where most folks abhor labeling or putting kids in a box based on a category that there is such an embracing of doing so based on gender. Do you see how that is at all limiting to children? What is the message to kids who don't conform to gender stereotypes - does that make them somehow unnatural?
I think you're making some huge assumptions here. No one that I have seen is advocating placing children in boxes based on ideas about gender. And if you're saying that simply believing that there are inherent differences leads to putting children in boxes, I don't agree. Personally, I think that understanding differences that may be ascribed to sex can potentially assist me in understanding my child better. Does that mean that I'm seeking to shape his behavior based on what I believe a male child should be doing? Of course not. In fact, if anything, I have a bias against stereotypical male behavior that I have to be very careful about not imposing on him.

IMO, this is quite like saying that acknowledging race is racist, in itself. Makes no sense.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
Personally, I think that understanding differences that may be ascribed to sex can potentially assist me in understanding my child better. Does that mean that I'm seeking to shape his behavior based on what I believe a male child should be doing? Of course not. In fact, if anything, I have a bias against stereotypical male behavior that I have to be very careful about not imposing on him.

IMO, this is quite like saying that acknowledging race is racist, in itself. Makes no sense.









Perhaps more specifics would help. Please tell me an example of how this understanding would work.

My son has had an incredibly strong drive to mathematics from the time he was very young. I'm sure a lot of people would look at that and say "ha, men are good at math". I could I suppose look at the statistics boys score higher on math tests than girls do. And, hey while I'm at it I notice that white kids score much higher on math tests on average than black kids do! When I look around the university math department I see more men than women. Hmmm... I suppose I could look at that interest in math which to be honest I don't really fully understand and say "hey it is because he's white!" "hey it is because he's a boy!" Would that be helpful?


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Communication is one area where I've found it helpful. Males and females are hard-wired to communicate differently. We're also hard-wired to seek out different forms of interaction with our surrounding environment. Knowing this has helped me to understand the way my son relates to his peers better.

If you haven't already, I suggest you do some reading on brain development in infants. It's pretty much universally recognized that there are significant differences that originate early on in the womb. There's also some interesting reading on males and autism and whether or not autism is an extreme of male behavior as determined by phsiology. I'm not so sure that I buy it, but the hypothesis is fascinating.

I still don't understand why there's so much resistance to this concept. No one is saying that nature is absolutely determinative - that all boys are going to be one way and all girls are going to be another way. Nurture does play a huge role. But there really is no denying that nature has an impact. And why would you want to? Is there something wrong with boys and girls having some basic differences? I'd really like for someone to answer that.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
Your sample of two tells you that kids conform to gender stereotypes. The broader sample of people who have posted tells us something else. Many people have posted that their children don't conform to gender stereotypes.

No, I said I believe there are gender differences and that my experience with my twins shocked the heck out of me that's for sure, and being around tons of kids my experience is that in general the differences between boys and girls are fairly consistent (with some exceptions). There is impressive research on BOTH SIDES, so really... no one's going to win this one and I just don't have the energy to play "I'll take your news article and raise you a link to a PubMed article" or whatever.







I do not agree that boys and girls are equivalent in every way. I also don't personally need to believe that anymore in order to feel feminist and progressive and avoid raising my sons to be misogynist gun-toting wife-beaters and my girls to dream of being size 0 Cinderellas when they grow up, kwim? I think there's an Option C here.... it's only black and white if we make it that way.

I do understand that protecting your child from damaging gender stereotypes is very important for you and just hope you can see that it's probably just as important for me to protect my children from this as well.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
Communication is one area where I've found it helpful. Males and females are hard-wired to communicate differently. We're also hard-wired to seek out different forms of interaction with our surrounding environment. Knowing this has helped me to understand the way my son relates to his peers better.

Please give me something specific. Communication is as vague as something possibly could be. Your son does what specific thing. It is explained by gender in what specific way. Understanding that helps you how in a way you couldn't otherwise understand it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
I still don't understand why there's so much resistance to this concept. No one is saying that nature is absolutely determinative - that all boys are going to be one way and all girls are going to be another way. Nurture does play a huge role. But there really is no denying that nature has an impact. And why would you want to? Is there something wrong with boys and girls having some basic differences? I'd really like for someone to answer that.

I've read quite a bit of it. Simon Baron-Cohen is one of the chief advocates and it is easy to find all sorts of critiques of his research. If the autistic boys are autistic because they were exposed to more testosterone in utero why do we see that as fixing just on the one trait of being a systemizer. Are autistic boys more super testosterone boys - more aggressive, stronger, etc. No. He has made up a theory that is for the most part totally untested. The little research he presents for key points is often based on a single poorly designed study.

I ask you why do you want it to? What does it mean to you?

Right now we live in a world with intense gender socialization from birth. It is silly to pretend we are capable of teasing out what is nature when we live with such intense gender socialization. Even if we could what is the point? What we know is that there are greater variations from one person to the next than there are from one sex to the next. It seems to me to serve little point to seek to lump people by gender when we vary so much.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

To be honest...

In my experience, no, there's been no differences other than personality differences.

I notice how differently people react and treat my kids, based on their gender, so perhaps I'm a freak in that I don't perceive any pragmatic differences.

Ooo, other than trying to teach my boys how to stand up to go potty. Until they started going to preschool they'd never seen a urinal before, but the (female) preschool teacher had to give mini-lessons to almost all the boys so that wasn't even all that different.

I'm not saying that other people can't/shouldn't/don't have other experiences. But myself and my kids, I've not noticed major differences in energy levels, behavior, nuturing, ect that can't be chalked up to personality.

I expect this will change as the kids get older, though. There are some things that I want to teach my boys about sexual violence and relationship violence that will likely be a little different than what I'll teach my daughter, but I'm hoping we can all talk about it together. And hoping probably against the odds that THEY'LL talk with each other about it and be a multi-gender support system. Because right now they don't have to be affected that much by societal gender expectations, but that's going to be changing over the next couple of years as they enter school. I'm not so much of an idealist that I don't think that will have an impact.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
Please give me something specific. Communication is as vague as something possibly could be. Your son does what specific thing. It is explained by gender in what specific way. Understanding that helps you how in a way you couldn't otherwise understand it.

I'm not going to sit here and sift through almost 7 years of memory to pin down the specific moments where knowledge about how the male brain works helped me relate to my son better. Besides, it's less specific occurences than it is an overall approach. I want to know my son through and through as a person and one aspect of the person that he is is his maleness.

Quote:

I've read quite a bit of it. Simon Baron-Cohen is one of the chief advocates and it is easy to find all sorts of critiques of his research. If the autistic boys are autistic because they were exposed to more testosterone in utero why do we see that as fixing just on the one trait of being a systemizer. Are autistic boys more super testosterone boys - more aggressive, stronger, etc. No. He has made up a theory that is for the most part totally untested. The little research he presents for key points is often based on a single poorly designed study.
It's telling that you've chosen to focus on one researcher who has presented an extreme, easily dismissable viewpoint, and ignored the mounds of legitimate research showing that there are differences in the brains of male and female infants. Why is that?

Quote:

I ask you why do you want it to? What does it mean to you?
It's one more possible insight into why my son is the way he is. Is that ever a bad thing?

Quote:

Right now we live in a world with intense gender socialization from birth. It is silly to pretend we are capable of teasing out what is nature when we live with such intense gender socialization.
And it is silly to pretend that we can tease out exactly what it is nurture.

Quote:

Even if we could what is the point? What we know is that there are greater variations from one person to the next than there are from one sex to the next. It seems to me to serve little point to seek to lump people by gender when we vary so much.
Again, no one is lumping. Investigation and understanding are not necessarily outcome-driven or done for the purpose of taking action.

One thing I would specifically like to know is whether you believe that the documented differences in brain construct and function have nothing to do with gender definition.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Quote:

With all of that said, it would be nice if you would do others the courtesy of responding to some of our questions
I am sitting here reading this stuff, and I haven't seen ONE person address the questions I asked a while back. Wonder why?

I have seen people ignore the anecdoates by folks like myself who see no real difference in how my son is compared to girls. I have said it more than once that I see more variation between one person and anoother than I see between all men and all women.

Quote:

Males and females are hard-wired to communicate differently. We're also hard-wired to seek out different forms of interaction with our surrounding environment.
You say this, but I simply don't see it. I see lots of people communicating in different ways. I don't see all men communicating one way, and all women communicating another. Even the research that supports this stuff is contested all the time. I mean, it's like saying this, "men are taller than women", but if you look closer at it, it's not really true. One man can be much shorter than one woman. Why is that? These things are not black and white, you can't say all men do x and all women do y, or all men are better than x than women. Because from person to person it isn't necessarily true.

Quote:

If you haven't already, I suggest you do some reading on brain development in infants. It's pretty much universally recognized that there are significant differences that originate early on in the womb.
I have read this stuff, studied it mind you and it isn't universally recognized.

Quote:

I still don't understand why there's so much resistance to this concept. No one is saying that nature is absolutely determinative - that all boys are going to be one way and all girls are going to be another way.
Actually you did, up above, you said males and females are HARD-WIRED to communicate differently.

Nature plays a role in this stuff, but I don't see these basic differences that you do.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Oh, and I also see lots of people confusing two concepts here, physical differences and non-physical differences.

Physical differences include things like these (from Wikipedia)

Quote:

Physical differences

From a young age, children notice the physical differences between men and women

Appearances....

Health....

Reproduction....

Neurological....

Health.....

As for studies, I found this article interesting.

from http://www.psychologymatters.org/nodifference.html

Quote:

Men and Women: No Big Difference
Studies show that one's sex has little or no bearing on personality, cognition and leadership

The Truth about Gender "Differences"

Mars-Venus sex differences appear to be as mythical as the Man in the Moon. A 2005 analysis of 46 meta-analyses that were conducted during the last two decades of the 20th century underscores that men and women are basically alike in terms of personality, cognitive ability and leadership. Psychologist Janet Shibley Hyde, PhD, of the University of Wisconsin in Madison, discovered that males and females from childhood to adulthood are more alike than different on most psychological variables, resulting in what she calls a gender similarities hypothesis. Using meta-analytical techniques that revolutionized the study of gender differences starting in the 1980s, she analyzed how prior research assessed the impact of gender on many psychological traits and abilities, including cognitive abilities, verbal and nonverbal communication, aggression, leadership, self-esteem, moral reasoning and motor behaviors.

You can find the original report here
http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/amp606581.pdf

And it is exactly as I find the world, that the two sexes are more similiar than they different, and that there is a huge overlap between psychological differences. Measurable differences are SINGLE DIGIT, not some huge all men are this way, and all women are this way. You can say something like men are risk takers, women are not, and we know that is simply not true. We can say Men are more likely to be risk takers, and it sounds like women are NOT risk takers, and we know that isn't true either. We can certainly find men who are defininitely NOT risk takers and many women who do take enormous risks, just like we can with any any other trait. Nurturing and caring men, Brave and courageous women, Aggressive women, Meek and mild men. Get it?

As for communication, I see lots of differences, I am a very outspoken person, I have no problems communicating in public forums, and voice my opinion easily, as well as speak up, I jump from topic to topic, I tend to debate, etc, etc, all supposedly typical ways MEN communicate. I see men who fall much more into the supposed female way of communicating as well. A study by Erina MacGeorge found only a 2% difference in the conversational styles of men and women, and reported that in general both sexes communicated in similar ways Studies of psychological gender differences are controversial and subject to error. Many small-scale studies report differences that are not repeated in larger studies.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
I'm not going to sit here and sift through almost 7 years of memory to pin down the specific moments where knowledge about how the male brain works helped me relate to my son better. Besides, it's less specific occurences than it is an overall approach. I want to know my son through and through as a person and one aspect of the person that he is is his maleness.

If you can't even come up with ONE example do you think that weakens your position a bit? I hardly asked for every single example in seven years, just a specific example or two?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
It's telling that you've chosen to focus on one researcher who has presented an extreme, easily dismissable viewpoint, and ignored the mounds of legitimate research showing that there are differences in the brains of male and female infants. Why is that?

You mentioned autism and I discussed the major proponent of the theory you mentioned. I'm trying to understand how we can have a discussion. You won't site specific examples from experience so we can discuss it logically. When we try to get specific about research you get upset that I'm discussing the exact theory you mentioned. There is extensive critique of the "science" of proving some of the gender differences you are mentioning. For example: Myths of Gender: Biological Theories About Women and Men by Anne Fausto-Sterling
and
Same Difference: How Gender Myths Are Hurting Our Relationships, Our Children, and Our Jobs by Rosalind Barnett

Of course it is impossible to really have a good discussion of research in this forum especially when most of the posters have read it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
One thing I would specifically like to know is whether you believe that the documented differences in brain construct and function have nothing to do with gender definition.

I don't believe we can possibly answer the question of what is nature and nurture at this point. Even the questions scientists ask, the way they ask them and how they seek to answer them is bound up in beliefs about gender. The science so far just isn't impressive (and again I refer you to the books I mentioned above for more detail).

What I can say based on logic and observation is that many people don't conform to gender stereotypes. And, that based on a parent's notions about gender they may interpret behavior very differently. It is the prism through which some look but it doesn't mean that the observations they make are accurate. As an example a friend of mine has two children. Her oldest is a very active girl. Her activity level received few comments in public even though it was on the extreme end of activity for all children. Her son who is of a more typical activity level would receive extensive commentary from friends and stranger alike along the lines of "he's all boy", "boys will sure keep you busy", etc. or even "he's really aggressive". A lesser degree of the same behavior but it was viewed as being gender typical so it was commented on for that reason.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 
No, I said I believe there are gender differences and that my experience with my twins shocked the heck out of me that's for sure, and being around tons of kids my experience is that in general the differences between boys and girls are fairly consistent (with some exceptions).

Right at your AP playgroup where boys were in pink dresses so therefore the culture was totally gender neutral. Again, I ask, what percentage of the parents attending playgroup were moms and what percentage were dads? Who was the primary breadwinner in these families? What percentage of the childcare was being done by dads? If you want to argue it isn't nurture because you are living in this gender free utopia and even there you see a difference, you need to be able to support that the environment was really gender neutral.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 
no one's going to win this one and I just don't have the energy to play "I'll take your news article and raise you a link to a PubMed article" or whatever.







I do not agree that boys and girls are equivalent in every way.

Please tell me equivalent isn't what you mean to say. You think boys and girls are of different value?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 
I also don't personally need to believe that anymore in order to feel feminist and progressive and avoid raising my sons to be misogynist gun-toting wife-beaters and my girls to dream of being size 0 Cinderellas when they grow up, kwim?

For many of us feminism isn't something we've adopted to look progressive or hip or because we think it is the only way to raise someone who isn't a wife beater. If find that characterization of feminism as one I can't relate to.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 
I do understand that protecting your child from damaging gender stereotypes is very important for you and just hope you can see that it's probably just as important for me to protect my children from this as well.


The one thing I agree with is that it is difficult to debate the science online. I think the discussion is most productive when people can talk from a position not just of experience but also of logic.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal* 
Actually you did, up above, you said males and females are HARD-WIRED to communicate differently.

That in no way translates to ALL males communicate one way and ALL females communicate another.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
If you can't even come up with ONE example do you think that weakens your position a bit? I hardly asked for every single example in seven years, just a specific example or two?

No, I don't. My example is my entire parenting experience.

Quote:

You mentioned autism and I discussed the major proponent of the theory you mentioned.
I mentioned it as a fringe, extreme theory that I didn't necessarily buy and you chose it to focus on.

Logic is obviously subjective here. I don't find your posts logical. You argue that gender is a construct of society and then say that we can't separate what is a product of nature and what is a product of nurture. (A point that I don't entirely agree with. I do think that we can separate nature and nurture to some degree by looking at examples from the rest of the animal kingdom.) You also are constructing your arguments against other's posts as though we are speaking in absolutes, when we aren't.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
No, I don't. My example is my entire parenting experience.

First you said that understanding these brain based differences for example with communication helped you understand your son. You can't explain at all what differences or any specific example of how that made sense...Now this understanding of brain based differences is your "entire parenting experience" - HUH?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
I mentioned it as a fringe, extreme theory that I didn't necessarily buy and you chose it to focus on.

If you'd read any of the books about the theory you'd know that they aren't citing "fringe" research but the same sort of research that you say you are basing your entire parenting experience on.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Oh, and last but not least: I've just read the first few pages of the article that Jwebbal linked and it's basically exactly what I've said: there are some physiological and psychological differences between males and females. So, it seems we're basically saying the same thing. How fun is that?








:


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## sphinxie (Feb 28, 2006)

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I wanted to mention...

The main difference I want to keep in mind is something I learned about while reading Carol Gilligan, that the traumatic period that girls go through during adolescence has correlations to a traumatic period that boys go through when they're merely around the age of five... where the parents (particularly the same-gender parent) withdraws and affection becomes more measured. Of course Carol Gilligan describes it much better, since I don't have kids yet this isn't something I've thought about a great deal yet. However I'd like to soften the effects of this stage for the whole family as much as possible, whatever gender the kid(s) may be.

Otherwise, I've heard from a lot of people that boys really do tend to be boyish and girls really do tend to be girlish. I want to avoid imposing stereotypes (esp in the form of colors, oy) but welcome whatever girlishness and/or boyishness the kiddo comes up with of their own


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

hmm, we are saying the same thing? I don't think so, the article specifies the actual REAL differences found in studies, and they are FEW and very slight. Here they are (and in fact they didn't really find communications differences you speak of, and even agression is barely seen) And mind you, they aren't saying all these differences are attributed to nature either.

Quote:

The Exceptions
As noted earlier, the gender similarities hypothesis does not assert that males and females are similar in absolutely every domain. The exceptions-areas in which gender differences are moderate or large in magnitude-should be recognized. The largest gender differences in Table 1 are in the domain of motor performance, particularly for measures such as throwing velocity (d 2.18) and throwing distance
(d 1.98) (Thomas & French, 1985). These differences are particularly large after puberty, when the gender gap in muscle mass and bone size widens.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Oh, and the conclusion of the report.

Quote:

Conclusion

*It is time to consider the costs of overinflated claims of
gender differences. Arguably, they cause harm in numerous
realms, including women's opportunities in the workplace,
couple conflict and communication, and analyses of selfesteem
problems among adolescents. Most important, these
claims are not consistent with the scientific data*.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Actually, we are saying the same thing, because I'm not saying waht you are insisting I'm saying. And I feel like I've clarified that at least a million times already.

I am not saying, have not said, and will not say that there are VAST differences between males and females. I have said and am still saying that there ARE differences, which is exactly what that article says.

This is starting to feel a lot like "discussing" politics with my dad, who insists that I'm a Democrat even though I never have been and still am not.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

well, okay, perhaps you aren't, point taken. But the other folks in this thread? If I seem shrill, it's because I have had this discussion numerous times on this board, and I am always surprised at some people's assumptions about gender and sex (which btw folks, are not the same thing). Statements like "girls are more girlish and boys are more boyish", like the terms boyish and girlish have universal meanings? Stuff like saying hormones are the cause of gender differences, without acknowledging that we all have varying degrees of the same hormones. Or even in other venues that anyone who doesn't "fit" into the standard idea of what a male or female is, has been influenced by the other hormone. Saying stuff like sensitive and nurturing men just got too many "female hormones" during his gestation. It just isn't as simple as that.

I just don't see how the FEW small differences, and frankly again, I don't see these as applying across the board to all men and women, make any real difference in how we parent our children. So men can throw farther, so what? I make sure I am farther away when my son throws a toy in the house? Aggression, okay, my son actually shows more verbal aggression than physical, which is supposedly linked to females. Go figure. My son's verbal ability is outstanding, and early talker, and is at least 1 year, probably more, ahead of his peers, male or female. See what I mean? I don't see how these things make any differnece in how we parent.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

You know what... no offense anyone but I'm kind of done with this thread. It's always the same - these threads go on and on and on with no conclusion. It's BLACK vs. WHITE. And the thing is no side has the ace of spades up their sleeves so it's a lot of back and forth and rolling eyes and shrugged shoulders. We all believe what we believe for different reasons. Period.

And no one's beliefs on this subject are any more or less well-founded than anyone elses. PERIOD!


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## TattooedMama (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LeftField* 
I do think there are innate differences between the sexes, but I think they run on a spectrum. My boys are pretty gentle and cautious and they tend to be androgynous in play. They have displayed stereotypical "boy" tendencies without any encouragement from us, like the obsession with trains (what IS that??), cars, machines, pirates and the like. They also lovingly push dolls around in their baby stroller and wear butterfly wings, however. I just wanted to put that out there. Not all boys are rough, daring and physically talented.

I have three boys and I often wonder if I have a girl (SOMEDAY!!!???? ) if she would be any different than her brothers. I doubt it. I have high energy, smart, spirited children. My oldest has never been into sports unless you count a failed attempt at peewee soccer when he was 3. He has been taking ballet for going on 5 years now. Pink was his favorite color until recently. He plays with boys and girls equally. He has friends of both sexes that like to paint their fingernails.







He pretended to nurse his stuffed animals when he was a nursing toddler. My middle ds has a baby doll that he carries around and likes to wear wrapped on his back, just like Mom AND Dad do. He has a play kitchen, he has a train set, and he is as rough and tumble of a kid as it gets!
I think it might be harder for AP/NFL parents to "see" the expected gender differences that societal conditioning expects of our kids. Because we don't adhere to lot of it!







Hooray for us, but mostly HOORAY FOR OUR KIDS that we teach to "disobey" gender stereotyping!


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

I have a son and a stepdaughter, I watched my Mom raise two girls and two boys, plus my Hubby was part of a two boy/two girl family growing up, so I can tell you, the boys are usually more impulsive and more physical, but it's the girls that'll get you in the end. Especially the teen years. Girls will be sneaky and vindictive. I watched my three siblings growing up and I know what a brat I was and I can tell you, my son just turned twelve and he's getting a little "teenagerish", but this is nothing. You'll know what the boys are up to- they'll be brutes about it- girls are more into psycholigical warfare, so to speak. The real fun will start when my little girl hits her teens. We're gonna be in so much trouble.


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

Personalities have something to do with it, yes, but I certainly don't encourage my son to be a brute any more than I encourage my little girl to be sneaky. Someone asked a question and I stated my opinion as far as my experience lets me. In my experience, once children get to their teens, their differences become more pronounced and in the ways I mentioned before, but that doesn't mean that I've got an attitude that's gonna hurt my children.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Self fulfilling prophecy.

"Girls will be sneaky and vindictive." I certainly never was. Neither were my close girlfriends. If that is what you expect, that is what you will get.


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

If none of the girls you went to school with, if none of your friends were sneaky and vindictive when they were teenagers, then I truly envy you. When I was in highschool, they were all like that, even to their friends and classmates, but ESPECIALLY to their parents. Maybe it's the way they were all brought up, maybe it's the way all teenage girls are, maybe it's a culteral thing (I notice you're from Canada, I'm in the US), but that's the difference I've seen between boys and girls. Doesn't mean I encourage it, doesn't mean I want it, just means I've seen it time after time. Do I expect it? Yes and no. When you see something time after time, it's pretty natural to expect it to happen again with similar results, but that doesn't mean I'm not trying everything in my power that my little girl won't be like that as she gets older or that my son won't be like my brothers were as they were growing up.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harleyhalfmoon* 
If none of the girls you went to school with, if none of your friends were sneaky and vindictive when they were teenagers, then I truly envy you. When I was in highschool, they were all like that, even to their friends and classmates, but ESPECIALLY to their parents. Maybe it's the way they were all brought up, maybe it's the way all teenage girls are, maybe it's a culteral thing (I notice you're from Canada, I'm in the US), but that's the difference I've seen between boys and girls. Doesn't mean I encourage it, doesn't mean I want it, just means I've seen it time after time. Do I expect it? Yes and no. When you see something time after time, it's pretty natural to expect it to happen again with similar results, but that doesn't mean I'm not trying everything in my power that my little girl won't be like that as she gets older or that my son won't be like my brothers were as they were growing up.









None of my friends were sneaky and vindictive. Of course, I know people who are sneaky and vindictive, but they are of both sexes.

You get what you expect. If this is your view of teenage girls, you will interpret your step daughter's actions accordingly, and it will be a sad, self fulfilling cycle.


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## jaye (Mar 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
None of my friends were sneaky and vindictive. Of course, I know people who are sneaky and vindictive, but they are of both sexes.

You get what you expect. If this is your view of teenage girls, you will interpret your step daughter's actions accordingly, and it will be a sad, self fulfilling cycle.

ITA - I've got 4 sisters, we were never considered sneaky and vindictive, and I would never expect my dd to be like that. And in the US here so it can't be a cultural thing. Very sad (and unproductive) to have those kinds of generalizations.


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## Petersmamma (Mar 28, 2006)

It's threads like these that make me think I better stop pretending that I am AP, or progressive, or liberal, or whatever category you fall under if you believe that men=women. Yeah, that came out really accusatory, but I didn't mean it that way.

I think that men and women hold equal value. But do I think that aside from a penis and a vagina we are the same? Why no. NO I do not. But that's okay. I like that men (in general...oh, do me a favor and preface every comment I make about men and women with a "in general" so I don't have to type it out a billion times.) don't feel the need to discuss every tiny thing. I like that women like to get dolled up and go to the bathroom in groups. I like that little boys like to VROOM VROOM. I like that little girls like to tuck their doll in bed.

Just because a little girl likes to tuck in her doll doesn't mean she won't grow up and have no kids and be a race car driver who spends every weekend with a different guy prowling the back alleys in Paris. Just because a little boy loves to VROOM VROOM and jump off his bed doesn't mean he won't grow up to be a SAHD who cares for his gorgeous kids while his partner spends all day making sure that all phone companies are ultimately the same.

There ARE gender differences. They won't apply to every person. They won't apply to every situation. But they DO exist. There's a reason that men and women seek company of their same sex. Men don't like to hang out together because they all have penis'. I don't love my girlfriends because they have a uterus. I love my girlfriends because I can call and bitch about how my dh is annoying me and we can delve into the minute details of it. I love my girlfriends because we can spend three hours looking for the perfect belt. My dh loves his friends because they can have a beer and talk about some sports team and it doesn't mean anything more than a beer and football.

Yes, those are generalizations. Not all women love to shop. Lots of women roll their eyes if you try to dissect a relationship. Lots of men ADORE talking about their innermost feelings. On and on and on.

A lot of these gender differences do come from society. But society has always existed. HUMANS create society. So, it's not an artifact of 2007. In 3467 (assuming the Earth is still around) there will be societies. In 312 B.C. there were societies. There have always been and always will be societal differences between men and women because we aren't the same.

For me, I enjoy realizing that men and women are different. I am an only child and now I have a son. I was really surprised when he fell head over heels for trucks at such an early age. He loves all things considered the domain of the boy. Trucks, cars, trains, blah blah blah. But that's okay. Just because he likes trucks doesn't mean he will be less of a man because he didn't cuddle dolls as a boy. As a girl, I was totally into Barbie. I had LOTS of dolls. Loved to play kitchen. As an adult, I'm the primary wage earner in my family. I don't go shopping that often. I have short hair both because it's cute







and also because I have NO idea how to style my hair. I wear make-up, but WAY less than I did as a teenager. I don't really know current fashions. I like to play soccer and ultimate Frisbee.

I love the parts of me that are feminine. I would HATE it if someone told me I couldn't wear lip gloss because that sets an example for little girls that they have to look a certain way. I love that dh is masculine. I love that he loves martial arts and was in the military.

I would hate it if dh and I were the same. I think our gender differences suit our family very well. I make food, he builds a deck. Now, that could be reversed, based on our skill sets, but the truth is that dh is physically stronger than me, which suits him to build a deck. I have urges to nourish my family, which is suited to cooking.

I dunno. This has gotten a bit rambly. I guess what I am trying to say is that it is okay if there are differences between boys and girls. Those should be celebrated. I don't really see how it's different from celebrating the differences between people in general. The nice thing about gender differences is that they allow us to feel unique and at the same time, a part of something.

ETA: I was pretty darn sneaky as a teen (does SNEAKING out count?







), as were a lot of my girlfriends, but all my male friends were pretty darn upfront about what they were doing. Obstinate and annoying, sure, but NOT sneaky. Just to add another voice to the not very nice teenage girl camp. And honestly, thinking about myself as a teen sometimes makes me really happy I have a boy.


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## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

Anyway, back to the thread. I do think freedom of speech is commendable, and I get a lot of comments saying "oh, you just wait and see" about girls (I'm expecting a girl any day now). It does make me sad, because I think people are made up of many different facets, and their gender is just one aspect of it. I've also heard from parents with multiple children with both boys and girls that girls tend to be easier to raise when little, but then are a lot harder when they're teenagers. And boys the opposite.

Of course I don't think of these as absolutes. I will take the information and use it if I need it. Hey, I may never need it. But it's good to know. Don't discount people's experiences. It's their valid experience. My ds is sweet, gentle, loving, cautious, strong-willed, sensitive, creative, loud, energetic, intelligent, loves dancing to classical music, loves books and animals, likes to throw ball and wild games. I love every facet of him.

I was the same way when little. I loved climbing trees, I hate pink (I would never dress my son in pink just because I hate it -- but dh occasionally wears pink and has a pink iPod







), loved rambunctious games, was energetic and a wanderer, and played on the boys' side against the girls in elementary school. I really almost see women as "the other gender".

But I'm a stereotypical female in that I don't like violent movies (get nightmares), love manners and politeness, and absolutely love to read. Romantic comedies are dh's favorite movie genre, but he does very much enjoy his Transformers, Apocalypto and 300 too.

Motherhood has made me the most feminine I'll ever be I think. I even wear skirts now!







I think all the pregnancy and breastfeeding hormones







But I swear girly women make me feel like a man







I have absolutely no sense or desire to decorate anything (I married a man who has a great aesthetic sense and is an artist so that solves my problem).

Hate frills, pink, frou frou, and all the stuff that is just well, way too feminine. Dh's family laughs at me because I've been wearing my friend's borrowed maternity clothes, which are feminine and many are pink.

I also check other women out sometimes and will actually tell my husband, wow, nice breasts -- or oh, I bet those thighs, shoulders, whatever are so soft, I would like to touch







I'm just weird like that. I love that I'm a woman because I can also check myself out in the mirror









I guess what I'm trying to say with all this is, most people all in all are androgynous. And if they happen to fit into stereotype, OK. What do you want to do about it? It's not the parent's fault or society's fault. People are too complex to be pigeonholed. As much as we'd like to have neat categories for everything


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## insahmniak (Aug 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sagira* 
...
Motherhood has made me the most feminine I'll ever be I think. I even wear skirts now!







I think all the pregnancy and breastfeeding hormones







But I swear girly women make me feel like a man







I have absolutely no sense or desire to decorate anything (I married a man who has a great aesthetic sense and is an artist so that solves my problem).

Hate frills, pink, frou frou, and all the stuff that is just well, way too feminine. I also check other females out and will actually tell my husband, wow, nice breasts -- or oh, I bet those thighs are really soft







I'm just weird like that. I love that I'm a woman because I can also check myself out









Wow. Are you my twin?! The things my DP can do with a room are astounding. The only time I look decent is when he dresses me, which isn't often enough.

(And BTW....I don't believe that's weird at all.







: )


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