# Can we talk about this forum?



## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

It seems that on many, if not most, threads these days there is a constant charge of judgment against people who question the motivations and practices of others and people who try to assert any parameters for GD.

I just don't get it. What is the purpose of this forum if not to discuss what GD is and is not and how we can discipline in ways that our children perceive as gentle? There seems to be an expectation now that in order to be gentle with one another we have to limit our responses to hugs and "you're doing fine."

I know there are some posts (and some posters) who tread too far over the line. IME, these are the exception rather than the rule, yet it seems that they are perceived as defining the forum. I don't see judgment and abrasiveness at every turn... maybe I'm just not looking for it.

When I first came here (I think it was while my son was still gestating), this was a place where people problem-solved with one another - threw around ideas, evaluated scenarios and parental behavior. I don't recall people feeling picked on as readily as they do now. It feels very frustrating to not even be able to have a theoretical discussion anymore.

So, why don't we get it out there? What do you see as the purpose of this forum? Why are people feeling so judged? What do you see as the solutions to any problems there might be?


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
It seems that on many, if not most, threads these days there is a constant charge of judgment against people who question the motivations and practices of others and people who try to assert any parameters for GD.

I just don't get it. What is the purpose of this forum if not to discuss what GD is and is not and how we can discipline in ways that our children perceive as gentle? There seems to be an expectation now that in order to be gentle with one another we have to limit our responses to hugs and "you're doing fine."

I know there are some posts (and some posters) who tread too far over the line. IME, these are the exception rather than the rule, yet it seems that they are perceived as defining the forum. I don't see judgment and abrasiveness at every turn... maybe I'm just not looking for it.

When I first came here (I think it was while my son was still gestating), this was a place where people problem-solved with one another - threw around ideas, evaluated scenarios and parental behavior. I don't recall people feeling picked on as readily as they do now. It feels very frustrating to not even be able to have a theoretical discussion anymore.

So, why don't we get it out there? What do you see as the purpose of this forum? Why are people feeling so judged? What do you see as the solutions to any problems there might be?

To answer your second question, I don't often come to this forum even though I am completely against spanking and have never spanked; am against insulting children,calling them names or defining them by their behavior (e.g., "You're a pig,") rather than stating facts about their behavior (e.g."Your room is dirty"); am against time-outs, sticker charts, and "rewards." I've read Alfie Kohn, repeatedly, as well as other people in the GD pantheon, and have sincerely tried to modify my parenting style and treat my child with respect.

In short, I owe a great deal to the GD forum and to GD writers in general, not least because they gave alternatives to the way in which I had been raised -- which, although it was vast leaps and bounds "gentler" than the way my mother herself was raised, was still not what you or I would call genuinely gentle discipline.

However, that said, I'm often reluctant to respond to posts because I often find that here and there, some people have chosen to play what I think of as the "gentler-than-thou" game. I'm not referring to anyone who enters into a spirit of thoughtful and constructive debate about an issue or who wants to define why a given approach is punitive or logical. No, THOSE discussions help a tremendous amount. Sometimes, though, it seems as if a few folks want to condemn basically everything except hugs and "you're doing fine" as thisclose to child abuse.

The underlying solution, I think, is that people need to give the freedom to others to allow GD to be thought of not as an absolute, but as a continuum. IMHO, there's a spectrum of behaviors that are generally GD with some behaviors being more and less punitive but still GD...and I don't think someone's committed heresy if they impose a consequence on their child (as long as the consequence is logical and nonabusive).

Thanks for hearing my .02.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Well. We have a thread where someone asks in the title if consequences are GD or not then everyone gets upset when people chime in with their opinions to the question. I stayed out of it because it has been stated to me several times lately that people do not want to hear my opinion. This is a DISCUSSION board. What is the point if we cannot discuss? If you do not want people to give opinions then it needs to be titled "support only" or "I only want to hear that z or y is OK and want pats on the back". I come here to challenge myself and get better at parenting. I am not perfect. I like to read all input even stuff I know I will disagree with. It helps to open my mind or solidify my ideals. Of course we are all going to have different ideas about what is gentle and what is not. Just like people have different ideas about how much if any vaccinations are OK or what type of diet is OK or when and how to potty train....... All of those CAN be very heated issues too but somehow people are allowing discussion to flow freely without taking everything personally on those forums. I wish we could do that here


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

I think people often feel judged because they are doubting the way they are doing things. I think if you're comfortable and confident with how you discipline your child, you won't feel judged, or if you do feel there is judgement from another poster, you won't care because you know you're doing what's best for your child and your family at this point in time.

Take time-outs for example. Some people here use time-outs while others don't and believe they are not helpful and maybe harmful. So if someone posts here listing all the reasons they believe time-outs are harmful and counterproductive, and another mama who uses time-outs gets offended or feels that she is being judged as harming her child, then maybe that mama needs to re-think the way she is disciplining her child. I think (and hope) that hearing these types of discussions can often lead us to reconsider the way we do things. If you feel any doubt, you might need to take a closer look at your methods.

Someone could tell me that I'm harming my baby by picking him up every time he cries because I'm denying him the opportunity to learn to self-soothe. They could tell me that I'm doing him psychological damage by continuing to breastfeed past 6 months. They could tell me any number of ways that they believe I'm harming my child until they're blue in the face and it would not make any difference to me. I would not be offended, and although I might think they were being judgmental, I would not care because I know what I'm doing is right for my child and my family. I am confident and comfortable with what I'm doing.

If someone's feeling judged, that's a problem that comes from within, I think.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

I have heard from other mamas that they don't feel welcome on this board. I struggle to figure out why I do. I am very (over!!!) sensitive so I'm the first person to feel attacked usually-- but never here. I consider myself to be one who is not GD by nature (ifrustrated easily, immature) so it's not like I feel like I have all the answers. I also find that when people here disagree with me, that I'm OK with the differences.

Quote:

some people have chosen to play what I think of as the "gentler-than-thou" game.
I agree with this, and since I am aware of it, I don't take it personally . . .for one thing, I know I would never "win." I can usually sort out the real support vs. people who want to play the semantics game, too.

Geeze, I hope I'm not one of the people causing others problems!


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

This is a DISCUSSION board. What is the point if we cannot discuss? If you do not want people to give opinions then it needs to be titled "support only" or "I only want to hear that z or y is OK and want pats on the back". I come here to challenge myself and get better at parenting. I am not perfect. I like to read all input even stuff I know I will disagree with. It helps to open my mind or solidify my ideals. Of course we are all going to have different ideas about what is gentle and what is not. Just like people have different ideas about how much if any vaccinations are OK or what type of diet is OK or when and how to potty train....... All of those CAN be very heated issues too but somehow people are allowing discussion to flow freely without taking everything personally on those forums. I wish we could do that here
I completely agree. If someone wants support only, then perhaps they should clearly state that. What I see though in many threads is the title reading like this:

"I did this or that... *was I wrong*?"

"I did this or that, *did I handle it GD*?"

"*I need advice* on this or that...please help!"

"Help me stop this or that!"

"Help me help my child stop this or that!"

Those titles open up discussion, ask for opinions, and seek out people's points of view on differing subjects. Of course I am going to state my opinion and how I may handle the situation... and if someone is asking whether they were gentle and I don't feel they were, I will say that too. Similarly, if the poster before me suggests something that I would not do in a million years with my child and I disagree, I am going to state that as well --- what good would it serve anyone if we were all just GD robots, smiling and nodding and agreeing with what every single other person said or suggested?

How would there be any growth at all?

I am sorry people feel judged, but after all, all opinions are judgements really -- we just use a nicer word. They may be educated judgements, or judgements made from experience, or with factual data behind them... but basically, opinions are judgements.

I feel judged occasionally, but it doesn't permeate my life outside of MDC. I would suggest that if there is something that plagues someone or upsets someone so much that they are thinking about it longer than they probably should, that there may be a reason for that and that perhaps they should evaluate why someone else's opinion, or judgement is affecting them so...


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

I have to say I LOVE THIS FORUM. The way it is. I always find what I look for here. I had heated discussions, I have been told (gently) what I was doing was perhaps not the best. I have not taken offense. I have learnt so much.
With perhaps one exception, I have ALWAYS been treated with so much respect on this forum. I think we have to compliment ourselves (all the moms in this forum) for their collective wisdom, and for the tremendous support that they/we give to stimulate a change of minds towards GD. Many moms (me included) come here when they are feeling down, and it really shows when you read subsequent post that when they leave the forum they feel a ton better....


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Well there is a certain level of diplomacy which makes it possible to express even the most strongly held opinions in a way which does not insult another.
"I dont use time out because I think my child would feel a withdrawal of love" and "Time out is damaging to all children and is as bad as spanking" BOTH express an opinion against time out. The first is rational and explains an opinion effectively. The second is inflammatory.
I DO think this is a great forum where we all should get a chance to be heard AND debate these things.
But I am afraid that there are several vocal posters whose posts frequently fall under the second type of statement.
If we could speak to each other with the respect understandign and consideration we purport to give our children, I dont think we would be having a problem.
And I also find the "if you feel insulted that is probably because of your guilt" to be completely over the top and condescending. For crying out loud. If somebody told me that somethign I did was abusive or unkind to my child and I disagreed, of course I am going to feel insulted even if I dont question my stand in the least bit. It is a way of saying "I can say whatever I want because if you feel bad when you hear it it proves you are doing things wrong"
So yes we should be able to debate these topics and share all the information we like. But as considerate intelligent individuals i think it would behoove us to choose our words so as to not be inflammatory.
And if somebody calls you out and says your words are inflammatory. Edit your post, apologise and move on, instead of digging in for battle.

Joline


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
And I also find the "if you feel insulted that is probably because of your guilt" to be completely over the top and condescending. For crying out loud. If somebody told me that somethign I did was abusive or unkind to my child and I disagreed, of course I am going to feel insulted even if I dont question my stand in the least bit. It is a way of saying "I can say whatever I want because if you feel bad when you hear it it proves you are doing things wrong"

Joline

I think this is where the problem is starting. You took what abac said to mean what you quoted above. She did not say that. She said it diplomatically like you advise us all to do. She said:

"So if someone posts here listing all the reasons they believe time-outs are harmful and counterproductive, and another mama who uses time-outs gets offended or feels that she is being judged as harming her child, then maybe that mama needs to re-think the way she is disciplining her child. I think (and hope) that hearing these types of discussions can often lead us to reconsider the way we do things. If you feel any doubt, you might need to take a closer look at your methods."

She did not say "guilt". Or even imply that people should feel guilt. I understand what she said to be that if you are feeling very defensive or offended, maybe it is because the topic is bothering you and a closer look is in order. People tell me all of the time that I am raising a future criminal and that not having consequences is bad bad bad. But I do NOT feel offended because I know I am doing the right thing for us.

So what is the answer? Can dissenting opnions not be stated? Are people that have certain opnions always going to be insulted with accussations of acting "gentler-than-thou"? I have not seen anyone call anyone esle a bad person or parent. I have not even seen anyone called not-GD. All I have seen is certain discipline methods being evaluated by people with widely varying opnions.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
And I also find the "if you feel insulted that is probably because of your guilt" to be completely over the top and condescending. For crying out loud. If somebody told me that somethign I did was abusive or unkind to my child and I disagreed, of course I am going to feel insulted even if I dont question my stand in the least bit. It is a way of saying "I can say whatever I want because if you feel bad when you hear it it proves you are doing things wrong"

I somewhat agree, though I think the truth actually lies in the middle. We're absolutely responsible for their own feelings, but we're also responsible for our actions. So, we should behave respectfully but also assume positive intent when receiving.

Quote:

So yes we should be able to debate these topics and share all the information we like. But as considerate intelligent individuals i think it would behoove us to choose our words so as to not be inflammatory.
And if somebody calls you out and says your words are inflammatory. Edit your post, apologise and move on, instead of digging in for battle.

The issue that I see here, though, is that often any expression of a differing opinion is received as inflammatory. So, how far do we need to go to accommodate people who are predisposed to feel judged, regardless of how a thought is conveyed? Should we edit and apologise anytime someone throws the judgment card? I'm thinking there would be very little discussion if that were the policy.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
And I also find the "if you feel insulted that is probably because of your guilt" to be completely over the top and condescending. For crying out loud. If somebody told me that somethign I did was abusive or unkind to my child and I disagreed, of course I am going to feel insulted even if I dont question my stand in the least bit. It is a way of saying "I can say whatever I want because if you feel bad when you hear it it proves you are doing things wrong"
So yes we should be able to debate these topics and share all the information we like. But as considerate intelligent individuals i think it would behoove us to choose our words so as to not be inflammatory.
And if somebody calls you out and says your words are inflammatory. Edit your post, apologise and move on, instead of digging in for battle.

I'm curious if you would feel insulted in the situations I gave here:

Quote:

Someone could tell me that I'm harming my baby by picking him up every time he cries because I'm denying him the opportunity to learn to self-soothe. They could tell me that I'm doing him psychological damage by continuing to breastfeed past 6 months.
When I hear things like that, I tend to just shrug my shoulders and think that the other person is wrong. I don't think that "if you feel bad when you hear it it proves you are doing things wrong," rather it proves that you are not entirely comfortable or confident with the way you are doing things. Because really, if someone tells me I'm abusing my child by breastfeeding him past infancy, I am not insulted because they are wrong. I shrug my shoulders, maybe roll my eyes, and move on. If someone said putting my child in time-out was abusive and I was offended by that, I would need to re-examine time-outs. It doesn't mean I am wrong for using time-outs, just that I need to put some more thought into it.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
I think this is where the problem is starting. You took what abac said to mean what you quoted above. She did not say that. She said it diplomatically like you advise us all to do. She said:

"So if someone posts here listing all the reasons they believe time-outs are harmful and counterproductive, and another mama who uses time-outs gets offended or feels that she is being judged as harming her child, then maybe that mama needs to re-think the way she is disciplining her child. I think (and hope) that hearing these types of discussions can often lead us to reconsider the way we do things. If you feel any doubt, you might need to take a closer look at your methods."

She did not say "guilt". Or even imply that people should feel guilt. I understand what she said to be that if you are feeling very defensive or offended, maybe it is because the topic is bothering you and a closer look is in order. People tell me all of the time that I am raising a future criminal and that not having consequences is bad bad bad. But I do NOT feel offended because I know I am doing the right thing for us.

So what is the answer? Can dissenting opnions not be stated? Are people that have certain opnions always going to be insulted with accussations of acting "gentler-than-thou"? I have not seen anyone call anyone esle a bad person or parent. I have not even seen anyone called not-GD. All I have seen is certain discipline methods being evaluated by people with widely varying opnions.

I did not quote the poster because it is the sentiment I have issue with and it is often recurring, and not just by her. I chose to restate her phrase rather than quote her directly because I have seen the same idea expressed by many different people.
"I think people often feel judged because they are doubting the way they are doing things. I think if you're comfortable and confident with how you discipline your child, you won't feel judged"
IN which perhaps I shouldnt have equated "doubt" with "guilt" . HOwever this has been used to excuse the speaker from any culpability of their own inflammatory remarks, and I think it is inaccurate.
I for one find such things insulting not because of my own weak stance but because we come together on a forum and are all sharing information. When somebodys views are belittled, their entire position is belittled and potentially invalidated to other readers.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
Well there is a certain level of diplomacy which makes it possible to express even the most strongly held opinions in a way which does not insult another.
"I dont use time out because I think my child would feel a withdrawal of love" and "Time out is damaging to all children and is as bad as spanking" BOTH express an opinion against time out. The first is rational and explains an opinion effectively. The second is inflammatory.

I don't know... If you feel time-out is damaging what's wrong with saying so? Can't we keep our minds open, debate and discuss the merits of different teaching tools and styles? I think debating these things is a great way for us to learn.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice*
I have to say I LOVE THIS FORUM. The way it is. I always find what I look for here. I had heated discussions, I have been told (gently) what I was doing was perhaps not the best. I have not taken offense. I have learnt so much.
With perhaps one exception, I have ALWAYS been treated with so much respect on this forum. I think we have to compliment ourselves (all the moms in this forum) for their collective wisdom, and for the tremendous support that they/we give to stimulate a change of minds towards GD. Many moms (me included) come here when they are feeling down, and it really shows when you read subsequent post that when they leave the forum they feel a ton better....









:


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I didn't say I thought anyone who felt badly is guilty and therefore is wrong. (your comment may not even have been directed at me but I am responding anway)

All I said was that if something someone said about someone's parenting or their discipline practices is permeating your life outside of mothering....as in, you find yourself thinking about it over and over again and feeling badly about it -- then maybe an evaluation should take place. Just a thought process to get to the bottom of why you may be thinking extensively about something someone on the internet said about the way you parent (in other words, a virtual stranger who doesn't know you or your children).

There is a reason for a thought that plagues us throughout the day. For instance, if someone judges me or offends me (which has happened on here and in real life)... I may be upset/angry etc... for a few minutes, or may mention it to my hubby or something, but when I find myself mulling a comment over and over in my head, or getting upset every time I think about it, or am giving thought to it much more than is probably warranted -- I evaluate why.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
The issue that I see here, though, is that often any expression of a differing opinion is received as inflammatory. So, how far do we need to go to accommodate people who are predisposed to feel judged, regardless of how a thought is conveyed? Should we edit and apologise anytime someone throws the judgment card? I'm thinking there would be very little discussion if that were the policy.

I completely agree with this. There are those who are super sensitive and who feel insulted at anything.
However, I still would advocate an apology and attempted modification rather than escalating it.
It is just the kind thing to do.
"I am sorry you feel that way, I had no intention of insulting you in that post. I will gladly change the wording" or even "I am not sure how to change the wording to convey the meaning in a way that you wouldnt find offensive. Maybe you could help?"
I had to stop posting at the SAHM forum because no matter how many times I said "I feel" and "for my kids"or "for my family" and never ever ever made blanket statements about all children or all families. Still, every breath I took seemed to be a hidden insult to somebody (who wasnt even the intended audience of the thread) There also ARE people that just go looking for a fight or a reason to be offended, I am certain of it!
To edit and try to be more considerate of our speech is not the same as admitting there was really anything "wrong" per se with the way it was originally stated.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

However, that said, I'm often reluctant to respond to posts because I often find that here and there, some people have chosen to play what I think of as the "gentler-than-thou" game.
Yep. I haven't read all the replies, but I know that I get a little tired of the nitpicking over whether something is a logical or natural consequence, and how if it wasn't phrased exactly right then you are a punishing parent, blah blah blah. It makes my head hurt, to be honest, and I feel like it would be so much more constructive to get real about the discussion. 90% of us here are very gentle parents, rarely using discipline, but we are real people and we are tired and we are some days stressed, and yes, some days I say "throw the train one more time and it's going away" rather than "hey sweet honey love, let's put the train down and go draw pictures of the universe together." I guess I feel sometimes this forum is all about ideal, perfect world GD, not real, everyday, we're doing our best GD.

I probably shouldn't post this - I'm cranky, I've got a sick kid, and I'm pissed at my mom and dh.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac*
I think people often feel judged because they are doubting the way they are doing things. I think if you're comfortable and confident with how you discipline your child, you won't feel judged, or if you do feel there is judgement from another poster, you won't care because you know you're doing what's best for your child and your family at this point in time.

I agree with that 98% lol
Here (gd forum- actually mdc in general) that's true. If something someone says offends me (rarely) or causes me to think a lot about what I'm doing (all the time) its because *I* need to deal with my thoughts on the issue. Not that what I'm doing is wrong. I just need to get my mind to a place where I'm comfortable with it (usually by analyzing it to death lol). I may come to the conclusion that I'm comfortable doing it, or I may change.

BUT I was offended and MAD when someone told me, on another board, said (anonymously) that I have "personal problems" and saying "Your obsession with your son is very sad and it is probably driving your boyfriend (I guess youre not married) nuts." And said if I left the board, everyone would be happier.
And someone else posted (at least she didn't hide her name) "I did say that I did not agree with any of Becky's parenting and that I worried greatly for Keagan. And I do."
Of course, that came after a full blown attack on me for saying "spanking is wrong" so I imagine i was feeling more than a little defensive...

I know they're full of it. But it still had me hopping mad for days.


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## ThinkBlu (Oct 17, 2005)

I fully support this topic. I would add disrespect to judgement as being a porential topic to explore. I sense that the feeling judgment goes in many ways and is not defined to a specific group. Having a hard time putting into words, but I think some think their actions are being judged, others think there motives are being judged, others, their thoughts or thought processes, others their emotions or emotional processes. Some feel judged as being not GD enough, some feel judged for being not 'effective' enough, some for being too sympathetic with the non-GD, some for coming across as holier-than-thou, etc.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
this was a place where people problem-solved with one another - threw around ideas, evaluated scenarios and parental behavior. &#8230;It feels very frustrating to not even be able to have a theoretical discussion anymore.

I'm glad to hear that this was a place&#8230;.gives me hope that it can be again. Being new to this board (and hopefully not part of the problem) I have and still am questioning the value of participating. It's similar to the thought process I went though in the year 2000 regarding television. The media CAN provide good information, but if you have to weed out so much garbage to find something of value, is it worth it? Is it a net gain or a net loss? TV got happily voted out; the vote is still in question regarding this board.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
What do you see as the purpose of this forum?

I think to be effective, this board may need to serve several purposes. Some come here looking for support and affirmation, others for critique and/or problem solving, others for exploration and I'm sure others I haven't identified.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
What do you see as the solutions to any problems there might be?

I agree with&#8230;

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
give the freedom to others to allow GD to be thought of not as an absolute, but as a continuum.

and with&#8230;

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
If you do not want people to give opinions then it needs to be titled "support only" or "I only want to hear that z or y is OK"

and I would add that participants need to challenge themselves to act respectfully, always. To be successful, I think the poster needs to identify what they are looking for and I think the responders need to respect the intent of the poster, stay on-topic, and be receptive and willing to change approach or back-off if they sense they are causing offense. Kinda silly, but to make emails more effective, I know many use a code in the subject line such as AR = Action Requested, FYI-NAR = For your information, no action requested&#8230;maybe something like that could help. In the topic line, SO = support only? AW = advice wanted? D=debate?

Oh, I think it goes without saying that insults, jibs and jabs, sarcasm, twisting of words, and taking things out of context, etc. are not conducive to the kind of climate that I think we want here, and are thus inappropriate. Best way to respond IMO? To ignore and let it die or to respond to the intent rather than to the "quote".

I have seen the attitude voiced on several threads that if someone takes offense or feels judged, that it is 'their' problem, and I strongly disagree as I think it puts the owness of the problem entirely on one party of the communication where as I believe that if a communication is ineffective both parties almost always share in the 'fault'.

I guess the thing I stuggle with most is how to deal with what I will call faulty logics especially ones that people see as 'truth'. For example, if someone states that they saw a fish, barking and playing fetch with the neighbor boy in the street&#8230;..how do you handle that? Do you just proceed as if it was a fish, or do you point out that perhaps it was a dog or do you just avoid the whole post?


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## ThinkBlu (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
.
If we could speak to each other with the respect understandign and consideration we purport to give our children, I dont think we would be having a problem.
...But as considerate intelligent individuals i think it would behoove us to choose our words so as to not be inflammatory.
And if somebody calls you out and says your words are inflammatory. Edit your post, apologise and move on, instead of digging in for battle.

Joline


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup*
I don't know... If you feel time-out is damaging what's wrong with saying so? Can't we keep our minds open, debate and discuss the merits of different teaching tools and styles? I think debating these things is a great way for us to learn.







:

Yes say so. But use an "I" statement so that we all dont feel like you are telling us taht WE are damaging our children. But that you choose not to use time out because you think it might be damaging to your children.
To a reader who after serious consideration on all sides, still chooses to use time out occasionally these statements are very different:
"We dont use time out in our house because I feel it is potentially just as damaging to my child as spanking." or even "We don't use time out because I am less concerned with changing my childs' behavior rather than preserving our relationship." on one hand and
"Time out is just as damaging to children as spanking." or "Time out damages the attachment between parent and child"
If you use "I" statements or "I think" or "I believe" or "in our family" or "In our house" you can state a firmly held belief, however controversial without being interpreted as accusing others of damaging their children or ruining their attachment relationships.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
Yep. I haven't read all the replies, but I know that I get a little tired of the nitpicking over whether something is a logical or natural consequence, and how if it wasn't phrased exactly right then you are a punishing parent, blah blah blah. It makes my head hurt, to be honest, and I feel like it would be so much more constructive to get real about the discussion. 90% of us here are very gentle parents, rarely using discipline, but we are real people and we are tired and we are some days stressed, and yes, some days I say "throw the train one more time and it's going away" rather than "hey sweet honey love, let's put the train down and go draw pictures of the universe together." I guess I feel sometimes this forum is all about ideal, perfect world GD, not real, everyday, we're doing our best GD.

I probably shouldn't post this - I'm cranky, I've got a sick kid, and I'm pissed at my mom and dh.

No, I think what you are saying is very true, and I think there is evidence of it even on this thread!


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac*
I'm curious if you would feel insulted in the situations I gave here: When I hear things like that, I tend to just shrug my shoulders and think that the other person is wrong. I don't think that "if you feel bad when you hear it it proves you are doing things wrong," rather it proves that you are not entirely comfortable or confident with the way you are doing things. Because really, if someone tells me I'm abusing my child by breastfeeding him past infancy, I am not insulted because they are wrong. I shrug my shoulders, maybe roll my eyes, and move on. If someone said putting my child in time-out was abusive and I was offended by that, I would need to re-examine time-outs. It doesn't mean I am wrong for using time-outs, just that I need to put some more thought into it.

I think there is a difference and here is why.
WHen somebody who is uninformed or has opinions vastly different from mine are advising me on my parenting. (A stranger, acquaintence or even my MIL)
I dont feel insulted and I can let it roll off of my back.
But in a forum where I am seeking alliance with others of like mind, and support among mothers with whom I share philosophies, such as statement has the potential to be hurtful. It also draws a line between "us" and "them" and IMO many of us are here to connect. To form an "us" of the GD community. I have no interest in connecting with the rude cashier at the grocery store who comments on my parenting, so what she says cannot insult me.


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## ThinkBlu (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sunnysideup*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
Well there is a certain level of diplomacy which makes it possible to express even the most strongly held opinions in a way which does not insult another.
"I dont use time out because I think my child would feel a withdrawal of love" and "Time out is damaging to all children and is as bad as spanking" BOTH express an opinion against time out. The first is rational and explains an opinion effectively. The second is inflammatory.

I don't know... If you feel time-out is damaging what's wrong with saying so? Can't we keep our minds open, debate and discuss the merits of different teaching tools and styles? I think debating these things is a great way for us to learn.

Would you be saying that "I feel time-outs are damaging", or would you be saying "time-outs are damaging"&#8230;.different messages, different responses and I would suggest that neither is as effective as, "I don't use time out because I think my child would feel a withdrawal of love" or even "I feel time-outs are damaging because&#8230;" And to be even more effective I would say that you should also recognize the other point of view such as, "I feel that time-outs are counterproductive because while I think the intent is to&#8230;.I think they more often have the effect of&#8230;&#8230;"

There is nothing necessarily "wrong" but one can make an argument that it is ineffective as it 'deafens' part of the audience. Is there any way to send a verbal communication that will be 'heard' by all? Probably not, but that I think is the goal. I'm sure we've all seen cartoons that showed 'what *he said*' on one side and 'what *she heard*' on the other, and the goal is to bring those two sides as close as possible. There are whole professions committed to this cause&#8230;survey writers and statisticians strive to neutral language so as to not add 'noise' to the message or even the facts, International businesspersons and marketers strive to understand subtitle nuisances that are offenses to one group of persons but not to another. People hear and define words by their culture, their upbringing, their experiences, etc. When I lived in New York, to confront someone was good; proactive and forthright, now that I live in Minnesota (land of Minnesota-nice) it is bad; confrontational, to challenge, to defy. To me, confront has very different connotations than confrontational and yet abuse brings the same connotations as abusive, unless it is used very carefully as in "I think it an abuse of trust&#8230;" Is it my problem? Sure, unless you are trying to communicate with me at which time it becomes *OUR* problem.

How far to we need to go in our communications to accommodate people? It depends how broadly we want our message to be heard.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boongirl*
And, using the ignore function helps. I have put a few people on ignore. When they show up in a thread, I simply back out and move on.









I have thought of doing this. But in the end it blocks me from the threads I find most interesting.







:
But I do have a mental "ignore" feature that I try to keep in mind. (but unfortunately it is easier to override!







)


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

If someone chooses to feel offended or hurt, they will do so no matter how it is said.
Why should I be held responsible for another's feelings? They are your feelings, not mine.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
If someone chooses to feel offended or hurt, they will do so no matter how it is said.
Why should I be held responsible for another's feelings? They are your feelings, not mine.

Thank you so much for providing a perfect example. . .


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

This forum has been getting more and more difficult to even read and I stopped posting much a while ago because I feel that certain viewpoints and perspectives on what GD and what is not GD have taken a role that I am not comfortable with. I come back hoping it will be better but thread after thread has gotten bogged down with disagreements over the 'older' standards of what is and isn't GD no longer being valid. I read many of the authors and practice GD as best I have understood it for a few years now and I do love it. But I am not TCS/non-coercive and have yet to be drawn to it. I have seen a lot of "gentler-than-thou" statements here. I have seen a lot of posts that are blanket statements as opposed to the "I" statements as others have requested.

I believe in a gentle view of natural/logical consequences at times. To some that puts me outside of the GD spectrum.

The circle just seems to be getting smaller and smaller. The definition narrower and narrower. What used to be ok is no longer ok here. I get a little peeved when someone says that what I do doesn't fit here anymore when it did a year ago.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
Thank you so much for providing a perfect example. . .










But MITB, you have been upset with something directed at you or what you have said.

I think speaking in a respectful manner goes a long way with getting our point across without hurting someones feelings. We could be more gentle with each other too.

I lurk here, but stay out mostly because my kids are a bit older, and I am not having the same issues as some of the moms with younger kids. I do try and offer support, though, and if i have anything to offer I do.

as for Time-outs, I know that quite a few moms do not like them, do not use nor advocate them. But I have used them (though not in a while) to mostly give my child a chance to regroup. This works amazing with my child, and has helped re-direct him. And I have given MYSELF timeouts when things are escalating and I am losing my ability to be effective. In fact, locking myself in my room is one of my favorite things to do


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
If someone chooses to feel offended or hurt, they will do so no matter how it is said.
Why should I be held responsible for another's feelings? They are your feelings, not mine.

Non-gentle attitudes like this are why this board is difficult. People posting who do not feel that they are responsible for the things they say and how they can affect others feelings when the GD board is a very emotionally charged board to begin with.

This is a part of the human community in my mind to care how your actions and words affect other people that you interact with. If you don't care about me and my feelings then why should I take your advice and why do you even give it?


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetbaby3*








But MITB, you have been upset with something directed at you or what you have said.

But I never held another person responsible for my feelings.
Yes, there are things i strongly disagree with and will state that.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sophmama*
This forum has been getting more and more difficult to even read and I stopped posting much a while ago because I feel that certain viewpoints and perspectives on what GD and what is not GD have taken a role that I am not comfortable with. I come back hoping it will be better but thread after thread has gotten bogged down with disagreements over the 'older' standards of what is and isn't GD no longer being valid. I read many of the authors and practice GD as best I have understood it for a few years now and I do love it. But I am not TCS/non-coercive and have yet to be drawn to it. I have seen a lot of "gentler-than-thou" statements here. I have seen a lot of posts that are blanket statements as opposed to the "I" statements as others have requested.

I believe in natural consequences at times. To some that puts me outside of the GD spectrum.

The circle just seems to be getting smaller and smaller. The definition narrower and narrower. What used to be ok is no longer ok here. I get a little peeved when someone says that what I do doesn't fit here anymore when it did a year ago.

Which is why we need you to stick around! The voices like you and like me are getting fewer and less vocal. And this is what allows this to happen.
I dont want some well meaning mom to come on here next year and find only non coercive types defining GD and feel that there is no way to be a firm authoritative guide for their children and be gentle at the same time.
To find that there is no real life advice for the mom who truly wants to address a behavior rather than just love the child and expect the best.
Where else do GD moms go to talk to other GD moms? Does anybody know?
This IS our place too.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

: Interesting thread. I usually steer clear of here even though I'm prob. the most GD person I know IRL. I don't think there's a "problem" w/asking people to discuss issues from a GD or TCS perspective on this board; ie. we don't promote formula on the bfeeding board or snips on the anti-circ board. BUT...I feel that some posters here get the clique mentality and gang up on people trying to discuss discipline issues. IRL, it's rarely "my way or the highway" but I feel that strongly here w/some posters or cliques.

In general at MDC, we talk about the AP checklist and agree that it's poppycock. But, I'm not so sure about the checklist and its rigidity here.

BUt, having said that







I'd still rather deal w/this forum than the real world sometimes.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

I think we need much more clarity on what this board considers GD. I have quoted examples right out of Jane Nelsen's Positive Discipline (a book listed on the Sticky for the GD book list) - and been told that the approach was child abuse and, I quote, a "criminal offense".

IMHO -- we need SOME definition around the belief system. For instance - if the GD philosophy here is far to the left of Positive Discipline - I want to know - so I can go find a more appropriate forum to discuss and practice the type of GD that I strive to adhere to.

Otherwise - the philosophies are too all over the map -- and the board is not helpful.


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## chiro_kristin (Dec 31, 2004)

Aside from being in the GD "family circle of trust," so to speak, another point of consideration might be how GD is presented to those who are new to the practice or the forum. I am an example. Although I consider myself to be AP, coming by it quite naturally and eager to learn more, I was unfamiliar with GD until I joined MDC. Unfortunately due to having a new baby and due to my job, I have little time to read the books that come so highly recommended in this forum.

So to someone who admittedly is unsure about how she feels about GD and how that fits into her parenting skills, like me, it is difficult to not see harsh judgment being passed to some posters. I'm not weak minded. I'm learning. But geesh, dare I post?

I'm in total agreement with johub based on what I've seen in my lurkings. I've found that some posts come across far from gentle.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Oh yeah, Jane Nelson is evil. Shhhhh


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## ThinkBlu (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sophmama*
This is a part of the human community in my mind to care how your actions and words affect other people that you interact with. If you don't care about me and my feelings then why....?











Well said.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

IMHO -- we need SOME definition around the belief system. For instance - if the GD philosophy here is far to the left of Positive Discipline - I want to know - so I can go find a more appropriate forum to discuss and practice the type of GD that I strive to adhere to.

Otherwise - the philosophies are too all over the map -- and the board is not helpful.
My instinct is to agree with this. I previously suggested (in another thread) splitting off a noncoercive/TCS forum and a more authoritatively-focused GD forum.

I have seen posters advocate things on this board that don't fit into my definition of "GD" too, but I don't feel it's my place to call them out on it.

I suppose the issue is that GD is not black and white, like vax/don't vax, nurse/FF, cosleep/CIO.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

OK, I'm game - I'll dive in.

I've been reading some of the recent threads with great interest, not only in the topics being discussed, but at how much people get their ire up over something that someone they never even met said.

I am on the "right" (not correct, but more conservative) side of GD, because I do believe that I am, in the end, the one who will pull the trump card if something is going on with my DS that I'm not comfortable with. It's the way I was raised, and it's the way I will raise my son. Period.

I have no deep-seeded issues related to resenting my parents for sometimes trumping me, invading my personal space, forcing me to do things, coercing me into sitting in my car seat, disrespecting me, or controlling me. Yet, with no question, they were "in charge" if it came down to it. It was not a complete democracy - I had a voice and an opinion that was considered, but they were the "captains" and had the final say....they DID listen to my opinions and incorporated them when possible.

I have no issues with feeling inavlidated or unimportant because I was not always accommodated; as an adult, I don't feel a sense of injustice if my needs aren't always considered equal to others, and I'm fine with compromising...that's just the way life is sometimes, and it doesn't give me a sense of sadness or dread to think of it that way...

SOOOOOOOOOOO.....someone who disagrees with the way I'm parenting by saying I'm controlling my child and not treating them as an equal, OK, whatever. That's their opinion. They could call me non-GD if they want, but I disagree - and in the end, for my family, that's all that matters.

What I *HAVE* gotten out of this forum is some GREAT ideas on how to implement the philosophies I already have, giving me techniques and tips on how to avoid power struggles, how to redirect and accomodate, how to rethink whether things are important or not - but the forum has never made me question that in my family, I am the captain of the ship. I firmly believe in a family someone needs to steer the ship, and in my family, it's me. I am NOT dogmatic, infallible, or unyielding...I am human. But, in the end, I am responsible for my children's physical, emotional, mental, and social well being, not the other way around.

Everyone has an opinion, everyone is entitled to one. However, there is something to be said for a certain amount of decorum and tact if you're trying to reach someone or persuade them to think of alternative solutions to issues. My mom always said "you catch more flies with honey", and I have found this to be true my entire life. It is NOT about NOT saying what you feel - it's about HOW you say it - and while you are not responsible for other people's feelings, I find it hard to believe that some people who represent themselves as trying to be mutually respectful and accomodating to their children have a hard time extending that same courtesy to adults who are looking for advice and discussions. I also find it hard to believe that in their interactions with their children, they would take the same tones or phrasings with them.

I remember the statement, "GD to me is treating my child the way I would like to be treated." floating around the boards some time ago.

To me, *LIFE* is treating others the way I would want to be treated, not just my children, but *everyone* - mu DH, my family, my friends, complete strangers...and I find it hard to believe sometimes that people would want to hear statements from others using the same tone they use themselves.

I fear I have been fairly off topic, so I'll try to actually answer the OP: To me, the GD forum is place to exchange ideas and share solutions to problems, to discuss the broad range of ideals that are within the spectrum of GD, and to be able to do so with at least the same amount of respect and courtesy that we would afford to our children.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
Which is why we need you to stick around! The voices like you and like me are getting fewer and less vocal. And this is what allows this to happen.
I dont want some well meaning mom to come on here next year and find only non coercive types defining GD and feel that there is no way to be a firm authoritative guide for their children and be gentle at the same time.
To find that there is no real life advice for the mom who truly wants to address a behavior rather than just love the child and expect the best.
Where else do GD moms go to talk to other GD moms? Does anybody know?
This IS our place too.

Thanks Joline. Most of the time I just read threads and think about posting







: under your posts but don't because that wouldn't be contributing much. I am frustrated by not having room here for my more authoritative view of parenting in general. I have thoughts and opinions that I just have been keeping to myself because I don't want to enter the fray. But this board isn't going to represent people like me if I don't contribute.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
If someone chooses to feel offended or hurt, they will do so no matter how it is said.
Why should I be held responsible for another's feelings? They are your feelings, not mine.

I agree with this sentiment.

But that does not prevent me from taking into account that there is another human being at the recieving end of what I am saying. I hold that person in highest respect and not having any intent of ever inflecting pain or hurt on another person I try to apologise, re-word, whatever it takes to make sure they understand it was not my intent to hurt them in any way.

I don't do it because I feel responsible for their feelings, as you say they are entirely responsible for their own responses and feelings, I do it in the name of peace and harmony. Because I have nothing to gain by making statements that hurt others. I never do it on purpose and if I do it accidentally I apologise. Because it's the right thing to do. I don't do it for them, I guess I do it for me.

Every person on this earth is on thier own journey and no one person is exactly in the same place as me. I try to always keep that in mind...some are further along and some are further behind. Some are to the left, some are to the right. It's actually more like a compass than a straight line.

Truth is I learn as much from those behind as I do from those ahead. The right as much as the left. And I don't mean "ahead and behind" in a better or worse sense. Just in...different places.







I know what I want to say but it's not coming out right.

So while I know I am not responsible for others feelings, they are, I still have respect for others feelings and try to honour them.

Of course when I'm in a bad place I fail miserably







but most days I do pretty well.










Carolyn


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
My instinct is to agree with this. I previously suggested (in another thread) splitting off a noncoercive/TCS forum and a more authoritatively-focused GD forum.

I have seen posters advocate things on this board that don't fit into my definition of "GD" too, but I don't feel it's my place to call them out on it.

I suppose the issue is that GD is not black and white, like vax/don't vax, nurse/FF, cosleep/CIO.

We shouldn't split the forum. I think that there are readers and posters at all points in the GD spectrum and it's helpful for all of us to be able to see suggestions and opinions coming from different views.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

I think that there are readers and posters at all points in the GD spectrum and it's helpful for all of us to be able to see suggestions and opinions coming from different views.
See, I'm torn, because I do see this point, but I feel like a lot of threads are turning into philosophical debates about what is/is not GD instead of actually helping the OP. Also, as someone who is not TCS/noncoercive and knows it, the suggestions from that "side" are often just barking up the wrong tree for me. I'm sure the TCS/noncoercive people feel the same way when someone suggests something that doesn't at all fit with their model of GD.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
See, I'm torn, because I do see this point, but I feel like a lot of threads are turning into philosophical debates about what is/is not GD instead of actually helping the OP. Also, as someone who is not TCS/noncoercive and knows it, the suggestions from that "side" are often just barking up the wrong tree for me. I'm sure the TCS/noncoercive people feel the same way when someone suggests something that doesn't at all fit with their model of GD.

I agree that I do enjoy seeing all different points of view.
But it goes get old whenever a mom posts "What can I do about X" and half of the thread turns into an argument on "why would you want to do anything about changing X?"
It makes moms not want to even bother posting about a problem.
If the tcs/noncoercive folks felt comfortable refraining from posting on threads where the subject line indicated somethign as described above (and vice versa)
If we could agree on creating safe spaces within individual threads, perhaps we can all cohabit this space more harmoniously.


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sophmama*
This forum has been getting more and more difficult to even read and I stopped posting much a while ago because I feel that certain viewpoints and perspectives on what GD and what is not GD have taken a role that I am not comfortable with. I come back hoping it will be better but thread after thread has gotten bogged down with disagreements over the 'older' standards of what is and isn't GD no longer being valid. I read many of the authors and practice GD as best I have understood it for a few years now and I do love it. But I am not TCS/non-coercive and have yet to be drawn to it. I have seen a lot of "gentler-than-thou" statements here. I have seen a lot of posts that are blanket statements as opposed to the "I" statements as others have requested.

I believe in a gentle view of natural/logical consequences at times. To some that puts me outside of the GD spectrum.

The circle just seems to be getting smaller and smaller. The definition narrower and narrower. What used to be ok is no longer ok here. I get a little peeved when someone says that what I do doesn't fit here anymore when it did a year ago.

I agree with this. THis forum has changed in the past year. Comments and responses have become more judgmental and less supportive. I also wish people would be gentler in their responses. Not all, but some are repeatedly abrasive. Comments like it's not my problem if someone's feelings are hurt are quite frankly shocking from a group of women who are so thoughtful and gentle with their children. I wish we could be this gentle with each other.

This does not mean I don't think alternative or dissenting views should be mentioned, but should be done diplomatically and with respect to the other person. There does exist a continuum within the broader definition of gentle discipline. This forum should be a place for all mommies within that spectrum. It is true, as stated by pps, this forum is one of the only places for gd moms to meet and discuss issues. I was so happy to find this place, as it is different and more in line with my own discipline philosophy than any "mainstream" board I've ever found.


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## ThinkBlu (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
I agree that I do enjoy seeing all different points of view.
But it goes get old whenever a mom posts "What can I do about X" and half of the thread turns into an argument on "why would you want to do anything about changing X?"
It makes moms not want to even bother posting about a problem.
If the tcs/noncoercive folks felt comfortable refraining from posting on threads where the subject line indicated somethign as described above (and vice versa)
If we could agree on creating safe spaces within individual threads, perhaps we can all cohabit this space more harmoniously.

I agree with this. I would rather find a way to cohabitate than to further break down the community. I think generally we are all working to the same end, and if some feel they are being excluded now, to futher narrow the boundary seems to further exclude. I'm not sure there is a definition for my parenting...I'm not sure I would 'belong' anywhere.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
YIf you use "I" statements or "I think" or "I believe" or "in our family" or "In our house" you can state a firmly held belief, however controversial without being interpreted as accusing others of damaging their children or ruining their attachment relationships.

Ideally, yes. Absolutely. Unfortunately, in my experience, this is not always the case. And I'd go so far as to say that on message boards, it's not even often the case. I wonder why that is.

oceanbaby - I'm sorry things are difficult for you right now and I do hope they get better soon. I think we all have those all too human days... some of us (ahem - me) more than others.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

I may be remembering through rose-colored glasses, but it seems to me that there was a time when a poster would post a question, receive various suggestions, and give a gracious 'thanks for the suggestions' even when said poster didn't agree with some suggestions or the philosophy behind them. If you received suggestions you didn't agree with, you just let it go. If you saw a suggestion to someone else that you very much disagreed with, you either ignored it and offered your own suggestion or you "respectfully disagreed" and opened yourself and the thread to discussion. And whatever you disagreed with might be food for thought instead of something to be defensive about. And when people really bothered you, well that's what the ignore list is for. If a thread really got under your skin, you just didn't post to it anymore.

As to the people replying to requests for help, often what I see now is a lot of people trying to prove themselves right and win over other people. What I seldom seem to see anymore is discussion with people having open minds, each acknowledging the value in the other person and what the other person has to say. What I see now is a lot of people trying to define what GD is, which just doesn't work, and labeling each other which also doesn't work-it doesn't promote discussion, it creates animosity, and it might actually get in the way of people getting the help they come here looking for. What I used to see was people actually discussing the potential pros and cons of doing this vs. doing that, which was something everyone in the community could learn from-and doing so in a respectful manner, rather than in argumentative or accusatory manners.

And for the love of pete, I have not ever read one single reply on this board (and no, I don't read every single post but I've read a lot over the years) suggesting that a mother "do nothing" and just give a hug and hope it passes in response to any given undesired behavior. The "doing nothing" is usually actually a suggestion to reframe, shift perspective, understand that learning takes time, and _communicate with the child_-and communicating with your child about behavior is far from doing nothing. Looking at things from another perspective is not 'doing nothing' even if looking at things from that other perspective leads you to change your mind about the importance of struggling over a particular issue. Not once have I read a post advocating just sitting back eating your organic hummus and watching while your child goes haywire.

People, there just isn't a lot of actual communication going on here. That is the problem as I see it. There is an awful lot of defensiveness and proving of one's point, and very little actual communication. I am always hopeful, and I have always loved to take refuge in this place, but even I am getting very discouraged.

Flame on....I can take it. I'll just let it go.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

There is a difference between "being offensive" and "being offended".
Too many ppl "get offended" when others disagree.

Being offensive is when ppl call a person







for not giving their baby alcohol.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

I think we're wearing the same glasses, sledg. And I completely agree with everything you wrote.


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## Teensy (Feb 22, 2002)

I think this forum has lost most of its helpfulness - any request for advice is met with talk with your child about it - nothing else IS gentle enough for some posters - so all discussions about time outs, reward charts, non-logical-or-natural-but-perhaps-effective-anyway-consequences are turned into discussions about why those (and most any other method) are not gentle.

It would be more helpful if posters would look at the intent of the OP before giving their opinions - What do you think about time outs? should warrant a different response than How can I use time outs with my DC while on a car trip? We have enough threads about parenting philosphies that posters ought to be able to just request/get practical advice sometimes without it having to be yet another discussion about how all discipline methods are bad.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:

I suppose the issue is that GD is not black and white, like vax/don't vax, nurse/FF, cosleep/CIO.
I don't have anything really very significant thing to contribute to this discussion, but I have to wonder about a few things regarding this statement. I don't see any of those examples as "black and white" either.

Even circumcision - though clearly black and white in terms of whether to do it or not (RIC) - holds tons of discussion-worthy issues, if one is from a culture where most men are cut. The question of vaxing is far from clear for most mamas. And even BF is grey - to the point that I have found a gaping lack of support for my BFing issues (EPing) with DS. Even among the EP threads.

So it is with GD, IMO. We are in agreement about a few parameters regarding the treatment of our children. Similar to how we are all in agreement that we "should" BFing, "should not" circ, and "should not" CIO - though the particulars may not be shared.

Should the vax board be split into "does" and "doesn't"? Or BFing board into "everything went smoothly" and "had nothing but struggles"?

I really like mixing it up, so to speak. I mean that both in the sense of sharing opinions and in the sense of getting into real, honest, nitty-gritty discussions. I'm challenged by that and love to learn that way...


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom*
I think we need much more clarity on what this board considers GD. I have quoted examples right out of Jane Nelsen's Positive Discipline (a book listed on the Sticky for the GD book list) - and been told that the approach was child abuse and, I quote, a "criminal offense".

IMHO -- we need SOME definition around the belief system. For instance - if the GD philosophy here is far to the left of Positive Discipline - I want to know - so I can go find a more appropriate forum to discuss and practice the type of GD that I strive to adhere to.

Otherwise - the philosophies are too all over the map -- and the board is not helpful.

Well, I have to say, I do get something out of differing beliefs. When I was in a real-life GD group, one mom used time outs. I don't. So what? She can ask why I don't or not, and vice versa. But, I learned other things from her, and hopefully she did from me. I learn things from the TCS people AND the people who are not. Don't make me pick what I am-- I can't even pick a religion!


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I like what Sledg said.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
If the tcs/noncoercive folks felt comfortable refraining from posting on threads where the subject line indicated somethign as described above (and vice versa)
If we could agree on creating safe spaces within individual threads, perhaps we can all cohabit this space more harmoniously.

Well, I'm not TCS, but I do strive for noncoercive. The requests for them/us to leave the forum or "refrain" from posting feels pretty crummy. If you're not interested, don't bite. But there's no reason why other sides shouldn't be expressed. I personally found it very helpful to read some of the more TCS type posts when I first came here.

But, I think I've been categorized as extreme, judgemental, and trying to villify people today, so take my opinion for what it's worth.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

ITA monkey's mom.

Well put.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Yeah, I don't believe in segregation. I like intense discussion where differing views are expressed, but that is just me. People have disagreed with me, that's cool too. I have gotten offended (briefly) at certain situations or sentiments expressed, I moved on.

That having been said, I also don't like being censored. I don't like the idea of "you can say this, but say it this way, you can't say that, if you feel this say it like that or don't say it at all, if you don't agree with us go to your own board" type sentiments.

If someone dislikes me or what I have to share that much, they can feel free to put me on ignore (I am sure some have







) .... if someone takes offense at something I have said so much that they feel I have broken the user agreement, they are welcome to tell on me. If someone thinks I misunderstood something they said and want to take it to PM, they are more than welcome to do so... I am actually a super person once ya get to know me








....but I think censoring people's thoughts or making a "separate but equal" type situation of 2 boards is going a bit too far.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
I like what Sledg said.

Well, I'm not TCS, but I do strive for noncoercive. The requests for them/us to leave the forum or "refrain" from posting feels pretty crummy. If you're not interested, don't bite. But there's no reason why other sides shouldn't be expressed. I personally found it very helpful to read some of the more TCS type posts when I first came here.

But, I think I've been categorized as extreme, judgemental, and trying to villify people today, so take my opinion for what it's worth.

My words would have had the same meaning if I said the "non-non-coercives" and vice versa, but it would not have sounded good.(we dont really have a unifying descriptive name like "non coercive" old-fashioned gd'ers? If I used tcs/non coercives first and then said vice versa it is only because of a lack of a concise term to describe the rest of us)
I in no way mean to say that it is up to the non coercives to stay out of threads. But perhaps we should have a way for each of us to indicate we are seeking advice within our own paradigm.
I happily stay out of threads that start "for those who dont control. . ." and "for families striving to be non coercive" Becuse I knwo they are not for me.
It applies both ways (hense the "vise versa")


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
I like what Sledg said.

Well, I'm not TCS, but I do strive for noncoercive. The requests for them/us to leave the forum or "refrain" from posting feels pretty crummy. If you're not interested, don't bite. But there's no reason why other sides shouldn't be expressed. I personally found it very helpful to read some of the more TCS type posts when I first came here.

But, I think I've been categorized as extreme, judgemental, and trying to villify people today, so take my opinion for what it's worth.

ITA - I think requesting an entire group of people with a certain philosophy to not post is counterproductive....I have learned things from the ladies who parent very differently than I do, and modified it to fit into my style, or even sometimes helped me realize what I did *not* want to do! (No offense meant







!!!)

my suggestion would be that if you post a suggestion, and the OP doesn't says 'thanks but no thanks, I don't agree with that, I was looking for something more _____', or ignores your advice, then probably they don't believe the same things you do and that the most helpful thing you can do is just give suggestions to what *you* would do in the situation and why *you* believe what you do, but steer clear of setting out reasons why you think they are "wrong" for not believing as you do.

I have found that my son's actions and behaviors have 'spoken' for me IRL far more loudly than any amount of talking to others about why 'my way' is 'better' or why their way is 'wrong'. I try to 'lead by example' and let my son be the proof in my pudding as to why spanking, yelling, and shaming aren't the only way to parent (which unfortunately some people believe). Offering your own experiences as to why things might work or don't work is far more effective than calling someone names and inferring they're a lousy parent.

I truly believe that widely divergent suggestions and personal examples of differing parenting philosophies is vital to this forum; however, blanket, emotional statements of right or wrong, GD or not GD, and other emotionally charged posts do nothing to further promote discussion and help others move towards practicing more gentle parenting.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *donosmommy04*
. . ., but steer clear of setting out reasons why you think they are "wrong" for not believing as you do.

. . .
I truly believe that widely divergent suggestions and personal examples of differing parenting philosophies is vital to this forum; however, blanket, emotional statements of right or wrong, GD or not GD, and other emotionally charged posts do nothing to further promote discussion and help others move towards practicing more gentle parenting.

I couldn't agree more. And if everybody could just do this, there woudl be no need to consider any type of separation, of boards or even individual posts.
This of course would be ideal.

HOwever there is so much resistance.
Both the idea that one is not responsible for somebody else being offended by their statements, And the idea that any attempt to encourage them to word things more diplomatically is censorship and if we dont like it put them in ignore, have been expressed in this very thread.

Is there anywhere we can go from here?


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## AccidentalHousewif (Nov 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
often what I see now is a lot of people trying to prove themselves right and win over other people.

As a newbie, and as someone not committed to a particular guru or POV and hoping to use this forum to inform my thinking along with reading books, that's what I see as well, and it has discouraged me from jumping into most discussions.

There's nothing wrong with debate, or with passionately stated beliefs, but there are better and worse ways to debate. And too often, it seems to me, the debate in this forum devolves into definitional hairsplitting and competitive quoting of preferred experts, not to mention thinly-veiled name-calling -- so much so that as a pp said it makes my head hurt. The tone of some threads becomes downright nasty. More than once I have logged out of the forum feeling less enlightened than struck by the medieval-theologian-weeding-out-heretics mentality of some GD devotees.

And as another pp noted, judgment is just a form of opinion, but some posts are imbued with an off-putting smugness, oozing the belief that what works for that poster's family, child, or children is going to work for everyone else if only they will do exactly as she has done.

Rather than any sort of rigid rules or splitting of the forum (because I do think that would be a shame as I suspect that there are many MDC members like myself who take an ecumenical approach to various GD doctrines, picking & choosing depending on the situation and the child, or still developing a definite POV), may I humbly suggest that we come to this forum from a place of humility as well as passion, so that we may offer our own experiences and opinions at the same time we acknowledge that what is ideal and efficacious for us may not be equally so for anyone else.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

OK, just one more, then I'm really going to make dinner









Johub, I guess the only way to go is to maybe interject if things are getting out of hand and ask that we all be as gentle with each other as we are with our children...

How about as a GD forum "guideline":

If you wouldn't say to your child, you shouldn't say it to another mama here.

I'm sure all of us are capable of expressing our feelings and opinions and values to our children without offending them, shaming them, taking their feelings into consideration, and not trying to prove them 'wrong' - that's what GD is all about, I think we all can at least agree on that....so why not extend that same consideration to other mamas looking for ways to be more gentle with their own children? Why not be as gentle with them as you are your own child?









OK, now I really need to get moving. Fortunately, DS has been fascinated by a balloon he got at the supermarket for the past 2 hours, playing with it wiht me in a thousand different ways...can't wait to see how he uses it in the kitchen!!!


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *donosmommy04*
How about as a GD forum "guideline":

If you wouldn't say to your child, you shouldn't say it to another mama here.


I love it.
I'm game.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius*
Well, I have to say, I do get something out of differing beliefs. When I was in a real-life GD group, one mom used time outs. I don't. So what? She can ask why I don't or not, and vice versa. But, I learned other things from her, and hopefully she did from me. I learn things from the TCS people AND the people who are not. Don't make me pick what I am-- I can't even pick a religion!

But the spectrum is so wide here. I like hearing a range of opinions too . . . but I really am trying to practice GD within a certain spectrum (basically around PD and Jane Nelsons books) - its hard. I try to reread the book to refocus myself. I go to a monthly book club to discuss it. But I really would find an active board useful to keep myself focused on consistency with the practice. Its just not possible when the views are so extreme to the left (and its the definitely the left) and so damning and vocal. And if you are a newbie - how could you even figure out what's what? I really feel like a few sub forums would be helpful.

For instance - I have had more than 1 poster respond extremely negatively to Jane Nelson and PD? Completely trashing it as cruel, etc. Well - its on the recommended Book List for GD on the sticky? So -- where is this board GD-wise? I shouldn't feel intimidated to post about my practicing a GD method explicitly approved/recommended by this board?


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom*
But the spectrum is so wide here. I like hearing a range of opinions too . . . but I really am trying to practice GD within a certain spectrum (basically around PD and Jane Nelsons books) - its hard. I try to reread the book to refocus myself. I go to a monthly book club to discuss it. But I really would find an active board useful to keep myself focused on consistency with the practice. Its just not possible when the views are so extreme to the left (and its the definitely the left) and so damning and vocal. And if you are a newbie - how could you even figure out what's what? I really feel like a few sub forums would be helpful.

Sub forums?
Not a separate forum. Not two separate forums, one "old fashioned gd" and one "tcs/non coercive/consensual" but room for everybody and inclusiveness plus some "safe space" to keep some threads on track.
Was this considered before when they discussed splitting forums way back?
I like the idea of subforums ( I guess I am liking all the potential solutions that get mentioned! LOL)


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
Sub forums?
Not a separate forum. Not two separate forums, one "old fashioned gd" and one "tcs/non coercive/consensual" but room for everybody and inclusiveness plus some "safe space" to keep some threads on track.
Was this considered before when they discussed splitting forums way back?
I like the idea of subforums ( I guess I am liking all the potential solutions that get mentioned! LOL)

That was my thought. Like parenting forum - so if you want to post in the "general" GD forum - you can - and you will get feedback from everyone. But if you want to reach those mommas who practice PD, for instance - you can post in that forum. SeeWIM?


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I see the value in having sub-forums where certain bandwidths on the GD spectrum are discussed. It has worked in the other forums on MDC, as far as I can tell...


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Hey, I like the subforum idea as well. Good compromise! Very GD!


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

I think the subforums have their draw backs but it would be like on the Bfing board - they have the CLW board since not all moms do CLW but we all support those who do - they belong there but there got to be a bit of an issue with MLW and CLW right next to each other - a subforum created a place to focus on that practice within breastfeeding. Or the EC forum on diapering. Yes it does segregate converstation a little but it also makes it a little sane to visit the boards and it gives those POV's a place to congregate and really talk without interuption. But I wouldn't want anyone to feel segregated. However from MY perspective, I would enjoy the board a lot more if there was a REAL peaceful solution like this.

What do those of you from the other side of the issue think? Would you want a TCS/non coercive subforum? Do you have other solutions? Do you think there is a real issue here? I'd like the PD forum or something that categorized me - I'm not sure what category I fit in though - still figuring it out. I just want to be able to post somewhere without fear of being pounced upon.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

I'm having a little trouble understanding why adults need separate forums or subforums to talk. To me, this seems like sending my kids to separate areas of the house when they are disagreeing about something and can't find a peaceful solution. Sure, for the moment it brings peace but it doesn't foster communication or learning.

I am having some trouble understanding, also, this negative undercurrent toward TCS/non-coercion-this desire to just put it elsewhere so we don't have to experience the discomfort of the conversations involving people who practice this method of parenting. I am not a TCS-er by any stretch of the imagination. But that doesn't mean I don't benefit from hearing about it in the course of an average discussion of discipline. Yes, TCS/non-coercion does challenge everything we've ever been taught or that we've ever understood about parenting and about children. And that brings out strong emotional reactions. Is that really a bad thing? Or could it be that we have the choice to open up just enough to have the opportunity to learn from it in some way?

You know, there are at least a few Positive Parenting or Positive Discipline boards out there that are more mainstream, where you don't run into conversations about TCS every day. But MDC is a gem of a place where you can be exposed to so many ideas that are so rare in our society at large. This just can't be a bad thing, in my book.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

I don't have a problem with hearing about TCS/non-coersion in really any thread - it's more the way it's presented and if the presenters don't feel an obligation to be gentle about it or they feel too passionate about it to do so, I thought the board might be more welcoming to GD practicers in general if they had an area to talk about it - IF THEY WANT IT - not trying to get rid of them. Want to let them have a place like the CLW forum if they want it. I don't know what exact title of my sub group would be because I don't have one really. I only want that IF THEY WANT IT!

Again, it's not the philosophy that offends, it's the presentation style.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
I am having some trouble understanding, also, this negative undercurrent toward TCS/non-coercion-this desire to just put it elsewhere so we don't have to experience the discomfort of the conversations involving people who practice this method of parenting. I am not a TCS-er by any stretch of the imagination. But that doesn't mean I don't benefit from hearing about it in the course of an average discussion of discipline. Yes, TCS/non-coercion does challenge everything we've ever been taught or that we've ever understood about parenting and about children. And that brings out strong emotional reactions. Is that really a bad thing? Or could it be that we have the choice to open up just enough to have the opportunity to learn from it in some way?

.

I have no problem at all with TCS or Non coercive parenting. I mean I am not at all interested in it myself. But I have no problems with it being described and advocated.
I do have a problem with this idea being pushed in almost every thread, regardless of whether or not it is related.
There are TCS/non coercive posters who are very respectful and helpful and contribute in positive beneficial ways wherever they post.
There are those who are not so much. Who appear from my position to be on a path to convert all, and to trod on any other idea or pov.
I am sure there are particularly agressive posters on either side, but of course my view is limited. (heck in "this side" it is probably me







)
So my issue is not with the philosophy but how some choose to share it.
I am for an all inclusive definition of GD, and it is this which causes most of the "debates" I particpate in. Nothign against TCS or non coercive parenting. Just against the attempts to define GD in a way that excludes those with a more traditional approach.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

I do have a problem with this idea being pushed in almost every thread, regardless of whether or not it is related.
I don't know where it wouldn't be related... I mean, if someone has a question related to *discipline* and someone practices non-coercive parenting or consensual living, I would imagine that person would share their perspective. Everyone "pushes" their agenda so to speak, just by the mere fact that they are offering suggestions as to how THEY would handle a situation according to THEIR parenting philosophy. I mean, I wouldn't ever go into a thread about a baby not sleeping and say something like "I don't agree with this AT ALL... but why don't you try crying it out?" ... The same way I am not going to enter a thread with certain parenting beliefs and say something like "though I am into consensual living, just force the kid to brush his teeth" kwim?

Perhaps people should put in their OP that they DON'T want advice from people who practice consensual living....because in most of the topics I read, people say "ANY advice appreciated etc"...

You are "pushing" your agenda every time you suggest something you would do....


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I don't know where it wouldn't be related... I mean, if someone has a question related to *discipline* and someone practices non-coercive parenting or consensual living, I would imagine that person would share their perspective. ..

Well for example. In any of a million threads where somebody posts "How do I get my child to do x" This person has already made a decision that X is important and they want to figure out how to get a point where their child does x.
IT is irrelevant to go into that thread and debate X and why anybody should ever do it or make their child do it and how it really isnt important anyway when it comes to your child's free will etc. . .
Now If the thread was "Is X important enough to coerce my child?" Then this type of argument would be related.
For example there have been several threads recently by moms who want to solve problems without coercing their children.
I read these threads and magically did NOT post. Because they really were not looking for somebody to say "YOU are the mom. TUrn that TV off!" or "you were right on to make your child get into his own carseat" or whatever.
Certainly I had ideas and suggestions which would have addressed the issue these posters wanted to solve, but they made it clear they were not looking to coerce their child and therefore my input would be unrelated.


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## Proudly AP (Jul 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls*
I agree with this sentiment.

But that does not prevent me from taking into account that there is another human being at the recieving end of what I am saying. I hold that person in highest respect and not having any intent of ever inflecting pain or hurt on another person I try to apologise, re-word, whatever it takes to make sure they understand it was not my intent to hurt them in any way.

I don't do it because I feel responsible for their feelings, as you say they are entirely responsible for their own responses and feelings, I do it in the name of peace and harmony. Because I have nothing to gain by making statements that hurt others. I never do it on purpose and if I do it accidentally I apologise. Because it's the right thing to do. I don't do it for them, I guess I do it for me.

Every person on this earth is on thier own journey and no one person is exactly in the same place as me. I try to always keep that in mind...some are further along and some are further behind. Some are to the left, some are to the right. It's actually more like a compass than a straight line.

Truth is I learn as much from those behind as I do from those ahead. The right as much as the left. And I don't mean "ahead and behind" in a better or worse sense. Just in...different places.







I know what I want to say but it's not coming out right.

So while I know I am not responsible for others feelings, they are, I still have respect for others feelings and try to honour them.

Of course when I'm in a bad place I fail miserably







but most days I do pretty well.










Carolyn


ITA with all of this. well-said (and well-intentioned, obviously), carolyn!


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
Well for example. In any of a million threads where somebody posts "How do I get my child to do x" This person has already made a decision that X is important and they want to figure out how to get a point where their child does x.

Are you sure about that? I originally came here with the belief that certain things were important. I've since changed my mind on some of them because people have helped me to find a better path for me in my parenting. I wouldn't have known about it if those people had stayed away from my threads because they thought I was just looking for solutions within a specific framework.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
Are you sure about that? I originally came here with the belief that certain things were important. I've since changed my mind on some of them because people have helped me to find a better path for me in my parenting. I wouldn't have known about it if those people had stayed away from my threads because they thought I was just looking for solutions within a specific framework.

Same here! I've learned so much and feel like I have really made progress in becoming the parent I want to be, and, no, I am not all the way there, but I do feel like I am pretty close to being that parent the majority of the time, kwim?


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Why is it that most of us disagree with anyone telling us what to do with our bodies, how to vote, what religion to believe... but at the same time, some people think nothing of turning around and telling people how to post, what to say, what threads to answer, how to frame our responses, how to interact with people, how to title our threads, and how to conduct ourselves within this forum...good luck getting a bunch of people who believe in non-coercion to buy that.....

I think I am respectful in more posts than I am disrespectful but hey, that is subjective. Respect is subjective. I refuse to mull over every word I type in case someone, somewhere may find it offensive. It seems around here a lot of the time, people find any challenge whatsoever of the way someone is *disciplining* offensive.

If you are asking for help, suggestions and advice...you're going to get it. That is the nature of the board. If you are asking for blind support and a pat on the back, ask for that too. It would save a lot of confusion I imagine.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Really really really would like subforums. Really a lot. Reason being . . . if a PD mom wants to have a PD discussion on these boards . . . . she should not have to spend an entire thread defending herself for actions that are PD. She should also not have to read posts such as "you are cruel" . .. "I would never do X to my children." It would be nice to hear from other PD moms about PD approaches.

I don't know what TCL is? I am getting a feel for non-coercive parenting though. And maybe these are the names of the GD styles that are more left leaning than PD. In subforums we could deal with "our tribe" so to speak. And we could post in the main forum if we wanted to hear from a wider spectrum of GD parents.

Strong appeal for subforums.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

The whole MDC site is a 'spanking free' zone. There is a Toddler forum, Childhood forum, Teen forum in which 'old fashioned' discipline is welcome. I understand the GD forum to be a more progressive forum promoting _to understand that children have reasons for their behavior_ and that **cooperation** can be engaged to solve shared problems. Cooperation obviously does not include _imposing_ anything or focusing on controlling or modifying behavior. The stated goal appears to specify "*rather than* to curb their tendencies toward wrong doing" as they learn about limits and boundaries. Not that punishment is utilized or promoted because some believe that children are manipulating. I don't infer this belief that children are manipulative from the guidelines at all. On the contrary.

Certainly, folks will come with these beliefs; this forum is sited for those with "the intent to _learn more_ about Gentle Discipline". Not to promote or maintain the 'old fashioned' discipline. One can certainly also start a "Positive Discipline according to Jane Neilson" tribe in Finding Your Tribe forum. Just as there is a TCS-ish tribe, TCC-ish tribe, and an Unconditional Parenting tribe.

Per googling, there are many 'Positive Discipline' forums nationally too. Just as there are TCS, TCC, and Unconditional Parenting forums nationally.

From the forum Guidelines:

Quote:

Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.

Hitting is never the best way to teach a child. Even in the case of real danger - as when a child runs out into the road - you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking. You can be dramatic without being abusive.

'Natural Family Living' by Peggy O'Mara
And what is so objectionable about promoting *seeking mutually agreeable solutions* in EVERY THREAD? Radical? Far left of what?

Pat


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

I am not really TCS or non-coercive, but I don't punish. I am feeling like my view point isn't welcome here. Which seems silly. Aren't there a lot of non-punishers in the GD forum at MDC. The discribtion of GD in the sticky seems to advocate a non-punitive approach to teaching discipline.

Quote:

And what is so objectionable about promoting *seeking mutually agreeable solutions* in EVERY THREAD? Radical? Far left of what?








:


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## owensmom (Feb 23, 2002)

The book list is not some sort of sanctioned-read-and-passed-the-MDC-GD-test by a GD guru list. It is only made up of suggestions by people on the board. Unconditional Parenting isn't on there, because nobody has told the mod to list it yet. PD is on there because someone found it helpful to them in their pursuit to GD and it was put on the list.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

I dunno about sub-forums. I don't always agree with the TCS/non-coercive mamas, but I'm really glad they're here. It's what's so special about MDC-- that there are so many viewpoints and ideas taken for granted here that would be considered too radical even to consider, on a lot of the more mainstream parenting boards. For instance, I don't EC, but I'm glad there are ECers on MDC, because I might not have otherwise known about that.

I think that MDC is a challenging place, especially if you're new to AP/NFL/etc. It's hard to start out here as a newbie if you're not already on board with a lot of the principles that many mamas here take for granted. So some sort of helpful attitude is needed from more experienced GD mamas, when the poster asking for help is clearly not conversant with non-coercive parenting etc. Also, such mamas have to realize that there are others here who are more authoritative. But I really hate the idea of segregating those discussions to a separate forum--- there's so much I would never have heard of, if I hadn't learned it here. And I do want to hear that perspective. I want to know what my options are, so that I can make informed choices.

But I also want to feel safe offering a more authoritative approach as a suggestion, when such a suggestion might be appropriate. I'm a GD mama, too, although of a different brand.

I guess I like all the debate. It's stimulating. I say keep things the way they are, because I think that the fact that we're having this discussion at all means people are thinking a little more about how to have these kinds of stimulating discussions while still maintaining civility and thoughtfulness. I've been on other boards where the minute a discussion gets heated, the mods yank the whole thread. Yikes. I don't want to see stuff like that here, ever, not that it ever would, but still.

Just adding my thoughts to the general pool. I'll stop rambling now.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom*
Really really really would like subforums. Really a lot. Reason being . . . if a PD mom wants to have a PD discussion on these boards . . . . she should not have to spend an entire thread defending herself for actions that are PD. She should also not have to read posts such as "you are cruel" . .. "I would never do X to my children." It would be nice to hear from other PD moms about PD approaches.

I don't know what TCL is? I am getting a feel for non-coercive parenting though. And maybe these are the names of the GD styles that are more left leaning than PD. In subforums we could deal with "our tribe" so to speak. And we could post in the main forum if we wanted to hear from a wider spectrum of GD parents.

Strong appeal for subforums.

There is a way to get what you want now without having subforums. Simply state in your title or OP that you are only open to PD help.

I do not see a need to break up the forum.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
There is a way to get what you want now without having subforums. Simply state in your title or OP that you are only open to PD help.

I do not see a need to break up the forum.

THis will only work if everybody agrees to respect the intent stated in the title. And I get the impression that there are a few who have no intention of limiting what or where they post.


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## MamaE (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *donosmommy04*
How about as a GD forum "guideline":

If you wouldn't say to your child, you shouldn't say it to another mama here.









And, I've said before in other threads, if we can't GD _each other_ how can we expect or claim to GD our children?

I think it's very fitting to the forum that if we GD our kids, we ought to GD each other. There are so many instances over the past few days of people syaing things they would never say to their children or of treating people in ways they would never treat their children. If GD is all about mutual respect, *let's start by respecting each other and by guiding each other as gently as we guide our children.*

As for subforums, hmm, I would probably vote no if I thought we could get everyone to adhere to a simple guideline of mutual respect and gentle guidance.







Yeah, right!


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
It seems around here a lot of the time, people find any challenge whatsoever of the way someone is *disciplining* offensive.

And it's gotten really out of hand.

I was struck by the recent thread where some mamas were getting offended over _spanking_ being described as the violent act that it is.

I couldn't believe I was on MDC.

Sorry, I won't be giving e-hugs to that kind of sentiment.

As far as using how we are with our children as a guideline... Well I have to mull that over. My unformed, unedited thoughts about it are that I'm not a child, you are not chilren, and we don't have a relationship where any person is a guide to another. It certainly will happen that we find guidance here from those whose ideas speak to us.

I certainly don't care to have anyone try coersion or manipulation on me. For those who do that with their kids, it's not a good litmus test for posting.


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Wow. This forum has been busy today. I only have skimmed the other posts, but I want to jump in here. I would say that 90% of my total posts since joining MDC have been in this forum, so I feel that I have a vested interest in it.

Several years ago, a friend of mine said she was hanging out in the MDC Gentle Discipline forum a lot. I said, "I never go there." I was an MDC lurker at the time. "You will when he's older...." she told me.

And I did. This was a place of solid, loving, help-a-mama-while-helping-her-kid advice. I read things that did not apply to my situation and catalogued them, knowing that I would probably need it someday.

In the last six months, this place has become disrespectful and a "you're wrong, I'm right" kind of playground shoving match. I hate it. I think that there are a lot of 'judge first, assist later' posts popping up. I think some people are more interested in being heard and being considered 'right', than being helpful.

There are people whose posts I avoid. There are people whose posts I look for first in a thread. I end up reading almost all of them because even though I am almost sure that I will disagree, there may be some nugget of usefulness for my kids. However, when a poster goes negative and seems to be trying to make someone feel bad for her choices, I ignore her for the rest of the thread.

I hope things improve here. I don't like the idea of subforums. I would rather just self-moderate. I hope this is a place to which I can return happily someday soon.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
People, there just isn't a lot of actual communication going on here. That is the problem as I see it. There is an awful lot of defensiveness and proving of one's point, and very little actual communication. I am always hopeful, and I have always loved to take refuge in this place, but even I am getting very discouraged.

I am sorry you are feeling that way Sledg. I really enjoy reading your posts and your advice has been really great for me so I hope you keep posting. I really disagree that there is _not a lot of communication on this forum_. I see a lot of people taking time to explain their POW calmly and considerately. Recently there was a thread with a discussion about TCS. Strong opinions were expressed on both sides, but it was a thread that was meant for discussion. A lot of other threads are just requests for help, which is offered very tactfully. Yes, you get different suggestions from different people, but, is that not the beauty of this forum? I am feeling sorry to see so many of you disappointed, because, as I said, I just love this forum and I do not want to see it broken up or anything else...
I think that you will all at least agree that one the main quality of this forum is that it moves fast. You can post a question today and get 10 or 20 reply over the weekend. That happens precisely because there is so much debate. Precisely because there are so many different viewpoints. This is what draws people here. Debate is enriching. Yes, you can find author-specific forums out there. But then, they move very very slowly. Why? Because people are getting very little that they do not already know and the guidelines are so specific and containing that there is little room for real discussion.
I am not married to a style of parenting or a specific author. Within a certain spectrum - I do not want to spank, call names, lay guilty trips etc. - I will do what works best. So I am thrilled that there is so much debate, and that every thread is responded to, with so many good ideas and suggestions by so many of us.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice*
I really disagree that there is not a lot of communication on this forum. I see a lot of people taking time to explain their POW calmly and considerately. Recently there was a thread with a discussion about TCS. Strong opinions were expressed on both sides, but it was a thread that was meant for discussion. A lot of other threads are just requests for help, which is offered very tactfully. Yes, you get different suggestions from different people, but, is that not the beauty of this forum? I am feeling sorry to see so many of you disappointed, because, as I said, I just love this forum and I do not want to see it broken up or anything else...

Hmmmmm....I think I did say that the beauty of this forum, what I have always loved about it, _is_ the diversity of thought and opinion. What discourages me is the amount of....well, I guess hostility and offense-taking that I'm seeing here when that diversity of opinion begins to be expressed. That is what I'm talking about when I say I don't see a lot of communication....I see lots of arguing and defensiveness. And yes, there is some real listening and sharing of ideas. But I think that somehow lately the defensiveness and argumentative nature of some threads is really so discouraging. It's just so much negative energy, which is so sad to see. I feel sad about it because this isn't what I'm used to seeing here at MDC, and it doesn't feel as peaceful as I would like it to be. And this desire to separate out forums just...well, I just don't understand it, frankly. I see no need for it, and I don't see it as desirable or beneficial.

Here's what I think: I love, love, love to hear all the many points of view that people bring here. I will not agree with all of them. I do not feel unwelcome or offended when someone else brings up a suggestion or point of view with which I disagree, _even if_ that wasn't the direction I was looking in for advice. _No one besides me has the power to make me feel offended, or frustrated, or angry or whatever._ No one has that much power over me. When I'm feeling offended or frustrated or whatever, the source of that is within myself. My feelings are _my_ responsibility. And that is why I have the power and _freedom_ to let it go, to decide that instead of being offended I can find something enriching about whatever has been said-even if that enrichment comes in the form of solidifying the belief I already have. Heck, I don't even have to continue feeling sad or frustrated about this forum-instead I could choose, as I am trying to today, to accept and work with things as they are and just let the rest go.

Maybe if we all just take what people offer here for what it is-a suggestion truly in the spirit of helping-we can make the peace here that we all wish to find. We are never going to all agree on anything, except the fact that we'd all like to help each other do our best to parent our children as responsibly, respectfully, and gently as possible. We're all more alike than we are different, I think.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaE*







And, I've said before in other threads, if we can't GD _each other_ how can we expect or claim to GD our children?

I agree with this in principle. The reality is much more difficult, though. I don't know the person behind the screen the way that I know my child and GD can be very difficult with a person you don't know, especially when that person has a lifetime of baggage that they carry with them and when you don't have the benefit of visual cues and tone.

I do think the best we can try to do is be respectful of one another. However, you simply cannot please everyone. I am 100% certain that I could spend hours re-reading every post and tweaking my words and phrasing and still offend someone. (Come to think of it, some days interacting on MDC reminds me of being married.







) Does this mean I won't try? Of course not. But it's just reality that you can't please everyone all of the time... or even some of the time it would seem.


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

I agree that it's impossible to please everyone, or even for all of us to agree. But, I do think its possible to attempt to be more diplomatic and a bit nicer. This is a problem with some, but by no means all people who post here. There's a difference between stating your beliefs and having someone offended and some of the outright nasty and inflammatory statements I've seen on this forum lately. The accusatory and judgmental posts really do need to stop. Being a mother is a difficult job and we are all trying to do the very best we can for our children. Each family, situation and personality is different and there will never be a total consensus, I just wish we'd all try to treat each other with a bit more respect and gentleness.

I also love hearing different views and opinions in the threads. I find there is something to gain from every side. As with all parenting/discipline info, I take and use what I like/agree with/think will work for my family and discard the rest. There is a continuum to GD and there should be room for all of us to debate without being attacked here.


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## KA29 (Jan 8, 2006)

Don't know if you all want an outside perspective or not, but I throw my .02 in there. I honestly don't know what to make of this forum. I have been AP/GD leaning since before my 4 1/2 year old was born and have AP/Gd'd her from the beginning and now have a 5 mos old son as well and will keep on doing it.

I'm not TCS and I have read Alfie Kohn and think he has some good points but disagree with him on a lot of other things. I'm not offended by people thinking differently than me or thinking my style of discipline is wrong. Heck, most people I know think most of my parenting is wrong. I mean, I don't spank. I don't CIO. I wear my babies and would wear my 4 year old if she would let me. We cosleep and I don't think babies should be scheduled. Most of the people around me think I am wrong in all or most of those things. Or at best, just plain weird. So really I don't mind hearing opinions from all sides of the spectrum and I pick and choose what works.

BUT, I am confused by this forum because it seems much more debate-oriented than helping people-oriented. People seem very concerned with out-gentling one another or saying someone else is out of the GD club because they don't do X Y or Z. And some of the replies people give make me wonder how they possibly could be gentle with their children if that are that abrasive to people here.

Anyway, I guess I would this forum does have some problems. I know I personally would think it was pretty pointless to post asking for brainstorming for any issue I ran into because I think it likely would turn into a backbiting debate.

I don't think people should hide their opinions, but if the way your opinion is presented is just going to push people away and offend/hurt people, what is the point of giving it? You can state even strong opinions in a kinder way.

Just my thoughts as a newbie whose been reading and scratching her head the last couple days.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *writermommy*
I agree that it's impossible to please everyone, or even for all of us to agree. But, I do think its possible to attempt to be more diplomatic and a bit nicer. This is a problem with some, but by no means all people who post here. There's a difference between stating your beliefs and having someone offended and some of the outright nasty and inflammatory statements I've seen on this forum lately. The accusatory and judgmental posts really do need to stop. Being a mother is a difficult job and we are all trying to do the very best we can for our children. Each family, situation and personality is different and there will never be a total consensus, I just wish we'd all try to treat each other with a bit more respect and gentleness.

I also love hearing different views and opinions in the threads. I find there is something to gain from every side. As with all parenting/discipline info, I take and use what I like/agree with/think will work for my family and discard the rest. There is a continuum to GD and there should be room for all of us to debate without being attacked here.

So we have come full circle. No solutions but a plea to just allget along.
Can we do this? There have been a few who have been pretty forthright in their belief that anybody telling them how to post is unwelcome censorship or who have no interest in taking responsibility for the offensiveness of their own words, believing that it a problem exclusive to the reader.

Here is a problem with the current "built in" solutions.
Yes you can put somebody on "ignore" but that still allows them to come in and take over threads that others are interested in. And threads then become pretty hard to follow when suddenly the discussion is monopolized by one or two people and one of those is on "ignore"
You can PM somebody, which is somthing I have considered, but it is not fair to the other readers who have interest in and a stake in the thread.
If I want to provide support and encouragement to another mom, it is unfair to the handful of readers who are in the same position and just arent posting, but are avidly reading to deprive them of that support as well, if I just PM the one person.
This is the reason I advocate a safe place to discuss different ideas within a particular framework for those who are not interested in debate but are interested in support or solutions which fit in with their beliefs.
We can ask each other if we all could just please be kind to one another. But where are we left when some just say, for all means and purposes. No.?

Joline


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

I'm opposed to splitting up the forum, and here's why:

I got involved in a TCS thread a while back that got very heated. Frankly, TCS was totally not for me (no disrespect to those who practice it) and I was one of those posters that kept asking "Well, what about THIS situation, that's ridiculous". I finally walked away from the thread thinking that some of these people were just way over the top, and I was not at all convinced about TCS.

*You know what? That thread has been on my mind ever since.*

I constantly ask myself when dealing with DD, "IF I were following TCS, what would I do in this situation?". *It's changed my whole point of view* on dealing with her. And in many situations I realize that I don't need to coerce her into doing something, that there are mutually agreeable ways to proceed.

Of course, in other situations I say "well, too bad, because this is non-negotiable." And I imagine all the TCS mamas disapproving of me.







Well, not really. But I do think about starting a thread asking how on earth I could resolve such and such situation with TCS.

Anyway, *if I hadn't participated in that spirited thread, this rather middle of the road mama never would have discovered a new parenting paradigm* (albeit one that only suits her part of the time). And separate forums probably would have meant I stayed away from the TCS talk entirely.

chinaKat


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

It seems that there are some people here who are genuinely interested in debating, and others who just want helpful advice about a specific problem. How about this-- when a thread starts to turn into a debate, the debaters spin off into a seperate thread. The debate thread could be de-personalized, so we were not talking about a specific parent and child situation, but instead just debating a more general issue. Would that work? Or is everone intent on eliminating all debate?


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KA29*
BUT, I am confused by this forum because it seems much more debate-oriented than helping people-oriented. People seem very concerned with out-gentling one another or saying someone else is out of the GD club because they don't do X Y or Z. And some of the replies people give make me wonder how they possibly could be gentle with their children if that are that abrasive to people here.

I don't think people should hide their opinions, but if the way your opinion is presented is just going to push people away and offend/hurt people, what is the point of giving it? You can state even strong opinions in a kinder way.

Just my thoughts as a newbie whose been reading and scratching her head the last couple days.

THANK YOU!!

I am unsure why some people feel that being asked to be gentle with one another, just because we're adults, is such a bad thing. I am all for giving opinions, suggestions, and even disagreeing on issues...but it is truly beyond me hy many participants of a 'gentle' forum cannot find it within themselves to have a little tact in stating their opinions and beliefs.

I find myself talking to my husband about this - because he considers that if something is his opinion, or is "true" (like someone is overweight or not very attractive or smart), that stating "the obvious" isn't "mean", it's just "honest".

I've tried to explain to him that just because something is true, or is his opinion, doesn't mean that he has to blurt it out in the first words that come to him. I wish he would be more thoughtful of the peope around him and try to reword his thoughts more considerately....

I am NOT advocating sugar coating, or lying, or even pretending - and I'm not suggesting that people do not voice their opinions - it's just beyond me why someone would NOT want to try to relate to another perons in a gentle, thoughtful way when they are trying to express their view - in case people haven't noticed, brash, emotional, inflammatory statements tend to shut people down instead of opening them up - and as far as I'm concerned, this forum is here to open people up to GD by sharing suggestions, alternatives, and experiences, not to shame them because they might do or not do something that you object to in your own belief system.

Oh well, I guess my naivete is getting the best of me again.....but I had hoped that of all places, a gentle parenting forum woud be the place where people could model 'being the bigger person' and 'treating others as you would like to be treated' - so much for practicing what you preach.

I stand by my proposed guideline, and would even expand it:

If you wouldn't use the words, content, or tone with a family member or friend, or appreciate someone using it with you, don't do it to someone here.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup*
It seems that there are some people here who are genuinely interested in debating, and others who just want helpful advice about a specific problem. How about this-- when a thread starts to turn into a debate, the debaters spin off into a seperate thread. The debate thread could be de-personalized, so we were not talking about a specific parent and child situation, but instead just debating a more general issue. Would that work? Or is everone intent on eliminating all debate?

I think THIS is an EXCELLENT idea!!!!!!























I love debate, when it is hypothetical and not focusing on a specific person or persons and their particular situation, when they have asked for help and not debate of the finer points of styles of GD parenting. I would love if spin offs could come about if thigns were starting to be debated on a "help needed" thread. Then, anyone who wanted to debate could participate, and the OP could continue to get the suggestions of help that they requested.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

The problem is that there is a differnce of opinions. It is dificult to say that we should GD each other when we cannot even agree on what GD is. So that idea is too subjective to be effective.

Some people see no problem with the forum. Me being one. I have seen some disrespectful posting FROM BOTH CAMPS but not moreso than a heated conversation in any of the forums on MDC. We have a user agreement to keep people in check. I think that is all that is needed. You see someone violate it, report it. You feel you are being stalked by someone, report it. Other than that, we can talk ourselves blue and not get anywhere. Even if we all agreed today to censor ourselves, this is a public board and people come and go. We would just have the same argument with all new people in two weeks.

I cannot speak for everyone, but i would not post in a thread that specifically asked for one type of answer only. If you say in the title that you only want pats on the back, then i will either post pats or not post. if you post that you only want "logical" consequences posts, then I will not post. I am pretty doubtful that there is anyone here that would not do this. Forced into being cencored is not OK in my book. A title asking for only certain replies is OK. I am choosing not to reply. I suppose someone might ignore that, but I really do not think it is anyone's goal to trample over someone that does not want thier advice. But people are getting bent out of shape when everyone chimes in on an open ended thread like "is Logical consequences GD or not?". You ask the question then get angry when someones says they think it isn't. Well what is the point? Instead post "I use logical consequences, I think they are great, can we have a big old thread talking about how great they are?".

The heat starts when someone posts an open post asking for advice or opinions. People chime in. Some one disagrees with something that someone else posted and says so (usually respectfully). The first person thinks the second person is attacking them personally and overreacts (usually disrespectfully) and the second person is forced to respond or defend thier position or risk that misinformation just sits there. And it escalates from there. There are all sorts of variations on the theme, but that is the basic problem. So one camp wants the other camp to just shut up and go away (although everyone is trying to mask that feeling with happy words). The other camp does not want to. Some people who are in neither camp want to hear both voices. So who wins? Those who want censorship or those who don't. That is what it is boiling down to. You can call the censorship "creating separate forums" or "please follow MY idea of how you should post" or whatever. I guess my opinion is that we have a user agreement for a reason.

I do think it is appropriate to call people out that declare one thing GD or not instead of saying "I think". I have been guilty of this, apologized, and have tried to not do it again. But the fact is, whether I say "it is" or "I think it is" people seem to be the same "offended".


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## fly-mom (May 23, 2005)

I like the debates too, to some extent. However, sometimes I would just like to read suggestions. I also feel that the debate takes over sometimes, and other posts asking for help go largely unanswered. I have posted a few times and gotten a couple of helpful suggestions, while meanwhile a debate thread has gotten hundreds of posts and views.

Would this work... how about a debate/philosophy subforum? This would go along with depersonalizing a particular topic. If a thread starts to heat up with debate, someone could start a spinoff thread in the debate subforum and link it to the thread in question. One could just say something like "I really disagree with X, but I would like to discuss it further. Please see my new thread in the debate forum".


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

You know, everyone is responsible for their actions and reactions. You can't debate with a wall. It takes two people to engage in a debate/dispute/disagreement and what I see is a lot of blaming and "if _other_ people or _some_ people would just do this or not do that it would all be okay."

From where I sit, you (collective) are the other people and the some people, so it is all relative. Post or don't post, be respectful, or not, offer advice or help, debate, or not... it really makes no difference to me as long as the user agreement is not being broken -- and that is not determined by me. I will do the same. I mean, we are all adults here, and I think we all have the self control (I hope) to leave a situation that is upsetting us too much. This blame game is annoying. Everyone who partakes in any kind of debate/disagreement/heated discussion instead of merrily going on their way is JUST as responsible as the others participating. I won't play this "...I know I argued too, but she was meaner..." game.

If you don't like where a thread is going, don't post in it. If you don't like where it is going but feel you want to add another perspective, go for it. If all you want is congratulations, please post that in your title. If you want ONLY advice from ONE book or ONE perspective, that can be easily remedied by the same thing. Or don't do any of that.... cool too. It just isn't worth (to me) getting all in a tizzy about. These people aren't coming into your home and assaulting you or giving unsolicited advice.. you are welcoming them and their opinions and ideas by visiting... and staying...

I am not suggesting anyone leave, I am just saying that it seems the sentiment in some of the posts are ones of violation or lack of some kind of choice in the matter...there is always a choice.


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

Quote:

*Yoopervegan* wrote: if you post that you only want "logical" consequences posts, then I will not post. I am pretty doubtful that there is anyone here that would not do this.
I appreciate this sentiment and only wish it were true. One of my very first posts in this forum was titled something like, "What creative consequences do you use with your kids?" and I got several posts right off the bat saying, "We don't use consequences" and then going on to lecture about how wrong and against GD it is to use them. They proceeded to get quite personal, accusing me of being 'punitive' and 'disrespectful' to my 18-year old daughter for, of all things, _inviting_ (not making, not forcing, not humiliating, simply suggesting and inviting) her to read a book and discuss it with me as a means of being able to regain her use of my personal Internet login access - which I provide to her as a favor, not a right.

I wasn't even asking for feedback on my particular example, I specifically asked for others ideas of creative ways to use consequences. The whole thread turned into a critique of my one example, which actually, in my estimation turned out great and I wasn't worried about the way I handled it at all. Needless to say, as a result of that (I believe intentional) thread derailment, there were few posts about creative ways to use consequences and I had to spend a lot of energy defending my relationship with my daughter.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
I appreciate this sentiment and only wish it were true. One of my very first posts in this forum was titled something like, "What creative consequences do you use with your kids?" and I got several posts right off the bat saying, "We don't use consequences" and then going on to lecture about how wrong and against GD it is to use them. They proceeded to get quite personal, accusing me of being 'punitive' and 'disrespectful' to my 18-year old daughter for, of all things, _inviting_ (not making, not forcing, not humiliating, simply suggesting and inviting) her to read a book and discuss it with me as a means of being able to regain her use of my personal Internet login access - which I provide to her as a favor, not a right.

I wasn't even asking for feedback on my particular example, I specifically asked for others ideas of creative ways to use consequences. The whole thread turned into a critique of my one example, which actually, in my estimation turned out great and I wasn't worried about the way I handled it at all. Needless to say, as a result of that (I believe intentional) thread derailment, there were few posts about creative ways to use consequences and I had to spend a lot of energy defending my relationship with my daughter.









The way you worded your title made it still open to discussion from anyone. What I was trying to say is if you want to limit who discusses in your thread, you need to state "please only reply if you believe in logical consequences as a good parenting tool". Otherwise the discussion is fair game. Actually it would still be "fair game", since participation would be in line with the user agreement and the guidelines of this forum, but most people would respect that you do not care about alternatives and leave the thread alone. And if someone ignored that and started trashing your thread, you would be in line to say "look, this is what I stated in the OP, back off, we are all going to ignore you now.....".

I am sure it seems clear to you that people should have understood that you only wanted LC-happy people. But there are lots of people on this thread that have stated that they welcomed other input because they might not have thought of alternatives. So if you (collective you) know for certain that you are not interested in hearing any other options, you can just state it. Clearly.

I do it all of the time in nutrition discussions. I am only interested in vegan ideas. So I state that. If I don't, then I cannot cry "no fair" when someone offers up a pot roast recipe. Even if I forget to state it in the OP and I get the dreaded pot roast suggestion, no harm done, i simply post, thanks, but i am looking for vegan recipes and move on. You can do the same. OTOH, if I forget to state I only want vegan recipes and someone offers the pot roast recipe and I reply that I am very offended, doesn't everyone know vegan food is healthier.....weeeellllll, then I have opened my thread up as a debate thread and I must then deal with the consequences or getting OT, or not getting enough vegan suggestions, or whatever.


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

I don't want to debate with you, Yooper, because you've been around here a lot longer than I have and I'm sure I'd probably agree with you in other forums on this same point. However, as I wrote in my previous post, it was one of my first posts on the Gentle Discipline forum. I had no idea that consequences were such a hot topic (hot in terms of controversy), nor did I know that people on this forum tend to parse things to the n'th degree such that the word "consequences" can mean any of a wide variety of things.

So I guess I just wanted to say that not everybody who wanders into this forum and decides to join the discussion is going to know what they're stepping into right from the get-go. Accusing new posters of things like being 'punitive' and 'disrespectful' to their children is not conducive to helping someone be open to, consider and perhaps eventually adopt a different POV. It only puts them on the defensive and serves to scare the bejeezus out of them for participating in discussions here.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
I don't want to debate with you, Yooper, because you've been around here a lot longer than I have and I'm sure I'd probably agree with you in other forums on this same point. However, as I wrote in my previous post, it was one of my first posts on the Gentle Discipline forum. I had no idea that consequences were such a hot topic (hot in terms of controversy), nor did I know that people on this forum tend to parse things to the n'th degree such that the word "consequences" can mean any of a wide variety of things.

So I guess I just wanted to say that not everybody who wanders into this forum and decides to join the discussion is going to know what they're stepping into right from the get-go. Accusing new posters of things like being 'punitive' and 'disrespectful' to their children is not conducive to helping someone be open to, consider and perhaps eventually adopt a different POV. It only puts them on the defensive and serves to scare the bejeezus out of them for participating in discussions here.

People being scared away is not good. I agree. And I also agree that it is hard to navigate a new forum when you do not know the unwritten "rules". I know I stuck my foot in my mouth when I first started posting here. I do not think there is one single solution to the problem. Some people choose to observe for a while to get the hang of the forum dynamics. Other jump right in. In some of those cases, other posters recognize that it is a new poster and tries to help the OP via PM or even mid thread. Some new posters have thier eyes opened to another opinion. And others, unfortunately get sucked down into the "hot topic" of the week and drown, like you did. It is unfortunate. Some will take it as a learning experience and others will run away and never return. But I do not think watering down the discussion or censoring does much to help the new poster either. What if (and this is hypothetical, I have no idea what is in your brain), someone mentioning that something you did was, in their opinion, punative, gave you a whole new perspective on parenting? Some people have had this experince. I have. I value it greatly. I am glad everyone did not just sit back and be silent in my case. In the case of the new poster, people do not know what they are or are not open to.

And I think "accussing" is a pretty strong word. People mentioning that they think something is punative is different than people saying "you are not gentle, get off this board". But I do not think I read the thread you are referring to, so I might be wrong. Maybe someone did say that to you. And if they did, report them.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

I dont post too much but i do have to say that i was turned off by some of the abrasiveness. A woman i "know" online wanted a more "crunchy" board and asked me and i directed her here only to have her be appalled and not want to come back to MDC AT ALL because the first thread she read was something along the lines of "if my baby doesnt want to be changed i wont force it and change her diaper." She was horrified and said i sent her to an abusive site where parents neglect their childrens basic needs and allow them to wallow in waste all day. Now, i doubt it was that serious but to her now this site is about neglectful nutcase parents.

I have not gone on threads where it seemed like people were just playing "word games" and saying the same thing but argueing about it. And *johub* - i really do like your perspective as a mom who has a teenager and a whole bunch of toddlers. I have never found anything you said to be offensive. I can read your posts without feeling like you jsut rang my doorbell during dinner to "sell me god." Sorry just wanted to put that out there


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
You know, everyone is responsible for their actions and reactions. You can't debate with a wall. It takes two people to engage in a debate/dispute/disagreement and what I see is a lot of blaming and "if _other_ people or _some_ people would just do this or not do that it would all be okay."

.

I think MOST of us are saying we WELCOME the debate. But just wish that the participants would exchange ideas rather than insults.
I have participated in a whole LOT of debates and I love to debate, myself. I am in no way suggesting debates be avoided, unless an OP request is.
However even debating itself has rules.
If you have an opinion, state it as an opinion.
If you have facts, back them up.
Deal with the issue, not the person debating.
The first person to stoop to insulting the person they are debating with loses. Ok well it isnt a win/ lose situation, but that is usuallly the point where a position falls apart.
A position is argued far more effectively when we rely on facts and opinions rather than judgments and tearing each other down.
If the crime is debating itself, I am certain I am one of the more guilty. . .
Joline

And I for one dont think asking others to be kind and respectful as "censorship" in any way.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
And I think "accusing" is a pretty strong word. People mentioning that they think something is punative is different than people saying "you are not gentle, get off this board". .

I agree with you that 'punative' is simply a possible description of an action/motivation. The problem arises frequently when describing the action becomes describing the person, or their relationship with their child.
It is perfectly welcome to say "I think time out is punative and I dont use it in my house.(or I would have used it in that situation or whatever)"
But sometimes it goes to far and the parent is described as "punative" or haveing an "adeversarial relationship" etc. . .
WEll, for those of us who have used time out a half dozen times in the last year, I assure you we do not believe we are punative people or have an adversarial relationship with our children.
I am not offended that some people think time out is punative. I am happy to discuss why it is or is not, what circumstances make it more or less punative and what temperament of a child is more or less likely to find it to be punative.
But when in this discussion somebody decides to characterize ME as punative, I do take personal offense.
When somebody tries to characterize my relationship with my children, and my attachmetn to them based on what they believe from their paradigm, without ever having met us. I think that is pretty low and unacceptable.
In addition, to these arguments words like "constantly" or "every little thing" are frequently added to characterize a relationship between parent and child in a poor light.
If a mom states that she has set a specific boundary (and all the reader knows is it might be the only one for that matter) it is not unheard of for somebody to accuse her of trying to "control every little thing" or being "authoritarian". If I say I have corrected my child's manners somebody might in the next thread mention how wrong it is for a parent to "constantly be correcting their child"
So I think that saying an action is punative or shaming or whatever is perfectly appropriate and a great way to share ideas and information.
To turn that argumetn around and characterize the parent that way, or the relationship, or to make more of the situation than it is by adding things like "constantly" and "every little thing" or what have you is also not helpful (nor accurate or informative.)
Joline


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

And I for one dont think asking others to be kind and respectful as "censorship" in any way.
Well, we all know what Ghandi said.... be the change you wish to see...that is all you can do...

And I will respectfully say that it is not anyone's place to impose conduct rules on other posters but MDC...which they did... in the user agreement...which we all agreed upon...so again the circle completes...


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Hey I wonder if we can get the rule of following the intent of the subject of the OP INTO the forum sticky?
That way those who only wish to follow the rules they have to follow to participate would be encouraged to do so?


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
Hey I wonder if we can get the rule of following the intent of the subject of the OP INTO the forum sticky?
That way those who only wish to follow the rules they have to follow to participate would be encouraged to do so?

Well that would be great if we always knew the intent of the OP. Say that someone asks "tell me about time-outs". One person might intend to only discuss the positives. Another might intend to only discuss the negatives. Another might want to discuss everything about it. Another might want to hear alternatives.

I keep coming back to this, but there is the thread where someone asks if Logical Consequences are GD or not in the title. Then people got mad when some people stated they did not think they were. Um. Ok. So what was the intent?!?!? I am still confused on that one. I could "twist" the "intent" of anything. Then we are back to subjective rules.

And I have to know. What exactly is the difference between a judgement and an opinion? What I seem to get out of this is that it is a judgement if one does not agree with the opinion, but it is an opinion if one does agree. I persoanlly think they are the same.

A judgement OR an opinion in the form of Bad mouthing, attacking, name calling, or whatever, is clearly agaist the user agreement.

And I totally get that you are saying about the differnece between saying I think someone is punative and saying I think that method is punative. But I feel much of the issue is that either way it is worded, people take it personally. What can be done about that?


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

Let's step back and look at how this issue is handled on other forums, just for giggles. Say someone on the cloth diapering posts a thread entitled, "what kind of cloth diapers do you use?" and someone answers that post with, "I don't use cloth. I use disposables because I feel that cloth diapers are .... (and proceeds to give some well-argued, but negative comments about cloth diapers)." How would that post be treated? Would people just say, "Well, maybe those cloth diapering mommies will see a different point of view and learn something."

Now, yes, if someone comes onto the gentle discipline forum and posts a topic about spanking, there is no question that those posts do not belong here. But as long as a post is talking about a method of discipline that is GENTLE, I would argue that such a post has a right to be here. If one doesn't use the particular tool in the GD toolbox that the post is entitled to be about, perhaps one could say, "I've made a conscious decision not to use that method, and if you'd like to know more, I'd be happy to explain" or something like that. That way, everyone has an opportunity to learn that there is a different way of doing things, without having it rammed down their throat (or be bullied, as I was on the creative consequences thread).

I like how a pp worded it, "selling me god". Amen sista.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cali's-hippymama*
I dont post too much but i do have to say that i was turned off by some of the abrasiveness. A woman i "know" online wanted a more "crunchy" board and asked me and i directed her here only to have her be appalled and not want to come back to MDC AT ALL because the first thread she read was something along the lines of "if my baby doesnt want to be changed i wont force it and change her diaper." She was horrified and said i sent her to an abusive site where parents neglect their childrens basic needs and allow them to wallow in waste all day. Now, i doubt it was that serious but to her now this site is about neglectful nutcase parents.


So now I am really confused. Does this mean in order to not let someone misunderstand I cannot state that I do not force my child to have her diaper changed? My dd is potty learned, but when she was in diapers, I did not force her to be changed. That does not mean I am neglectful. So someone misunderstood. She did not choose to ask more about it or read more about it. But how does that pertain to this conversation? Are you suggesting we should censor against diaper changing discussion?


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
Let's step back and look at how this issue is handled on other forums, just for giggles. Say someone on the cloth diapering posts a thread entitled, "what kind of cloth diapers do you use?" and someone answers that post with, "I don't use cloth. I use disposables because I feel that cloth diapers are .... (and proceeds to give some well-argued, but negative comments about cloth diapers)." How would that post be treated? Would people just say, "Well, maybe those cloth diapering mommies will see a different point of view and learn something."


But there is a difference. Someone coming to the CD forum and badmouthing CDs is clearly not within the mission of the CD forum. Here, in the GD forum, no one is coming in an advocating soemthing non-GD. We are disagreeing on what is the best kind of GD or what actually IS GD.

So to make it more like what we have going on here it is more like this:

"what kind of cloth diapers do you use?" and someone answers that post with, "I only use buttcrazy diapers. I use buttcrazies because I feel that buttcrazies are .... (and proceeds to give some well-argued, but negative comments about some other brands of cloth diapers)." How would that post be treated? Would people just say, "Well, maybe those non-buttcrazies using mommies will see a different point of view and learn something?"

And in that example, yes, I do think the buttcrazy-loving person is trying to explain the benefits of these great diapers in hopes that it might help someone who is struggling with cding.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

I don't post much in this forum but I just wanted to add my $.0002. (Yes, the zeros are intended







)

I was shocked to see a recent thread where after a poster who was new to MDC posted about using tokens or whatnot, there were several SERIOUSLY SARCASTIC posts. There were some people posting things like "let's be nice to the newbie, but..." - it came off as shockingly condescending to that poster (who as I recall did not return to the thread, gee wonder why not!).

The whole 'atmosphere' of that thread was so ugly to me. Whatever it is that was done on that thread, if we can NOT do that to each other, I think that would be good.

And yeah, you can't assume everyone who comes here has read or even heard of Alfie Kohn. To 99.99% of the parents out there, 'positive reinforcement' (rewards) is the very definition of gentle discipline. So unless this forum is meant to be a closed club of people who have all read the same books, I think it behooves people who are against rewards & token systems (just for example) to be...gentle and for heaven's sake not SARCASTIC to people who come here and talk about using them, especially if those people are new. And it might also behoove us to consider the remote possibility that there is room for this type of thing under the umbrella of Gentle Parenting. Instead I see an undercurrent of ridicule for people who are not 'initiated' into some of the parenting concepts that are de rigeur in this forum.

But perhaps it's none of my beeswax...since I don't post regularly. Apologies if so. Just wanted to share how things come off sometimes.

And I do find that many threads are absolutely great, so I'm not sure any subforuming or other drastic measures need to be put in place.

Elizabeth


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
I like how a pp worded it, "selling me god". Amen sista.









That's how a lot of the posts that I'm concerned about come across to me. Exactly the same feel.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

BTW, nonconformnmom, I am not trying to pick on you. I am responding to your posts because I think you are getting close to uncovering the real underlying issue, which is a good thing


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

Quote:

*Yoopervegan* wrote: Here, in the GD forum, no one is coming in an advocating soemthing non-GD. We are disagreeing on what is the best kind of GD or what actually IS GD.
A post with the word "consequences" in the title is, in fact (or has been), often treated by a vocal (or shall I say prolific) minority as someone having posted something non-GD. That's what I have been trying to say. And, often (not always) the supposed bad things about using consequences (for example) are expounded in detail, rather than simply stating the positive aspects of the differing method those posters espouse. So it really doesn't come across as trying to 'help someone see a different POV' it comes across as trying to shame others into accepting that the way they posted about is wrong (because it is in opposition to the interpretation of GD by the prolific minority). So it's all in the negative, not the positive.

Yoopervegan - I cross-posted with ya. Thanks for saying that.









Edited to add: I'm still laughing at "buttcrazy diapers".


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Honestly, all this sub-forum talk seems like we are overanalyzing the problem. I don't really think it would solve anything.

I'm somewhat new here so I'm not sure how heavily the moderators police these forums.

Maybe we just need a few extra GD forum moderators to keep things from deteriorating into squabbles all the time?

chinaKat


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
Well that would be great if we always knew the intent of the OP. Say that someone asks "tell me about time-outs". One person might intend to only discuss the positives. Another might intend to only discuss the negatives. Another might want to discuss everything about it. Another might want to hear alternatives.

I keep coming back to this, but there is the thread where someone asks if Logical Consequences are GD or not in the title. Then people got mad when some people stated they did not think they were. Um. Ok. So what was the intent?!?!? I am still confused on that one. I could "twist" the "intent" of anything. Then we are back to subjective rules.

And I have to know. What exactly is the difference between a judgement and an opinion? What I seem to get out of this is that it is a judgement if one does not agree with the opinion, but it is an opinion if one does agree. I persoanlly think they are the same.

A judgement OR an opinion in the form of Bad mouthing, attacking, name calling, or whatever, is clearly agaist the user agreement.

And I totally get that you are saying about the differnece between saying I think someone is punative and saying I think that method is punative. But I feel much of the issue is that either way it is worded, people take it personally. What can be done about that?

Well I think if we are talking about a specific type of statement in the subject either asking for specific type of help, or no debate please or all help, that it shoudl be respected.
Anything that is posted without an agreed upon clarifiying statement is anybodys game.
SO I dont mean the intent of the poster. But if the poster says "from a UP perspective" or "for those of you who do time out" It is pretty obvious.
If they dont state it they shouldht complain.

Well, all that can be done about somebody taking something personally when it is not intended to be so (happens to me all the time) is to restate, clarify intent and apologise for hurt feeligns.
Just recently I said something to the extent that I would feel my kids ill used if they didnt have access to crayons. In a paragraph which I intended to point out we all have different priorities, and one mom and I have different priorities adn that is swell. And it was read to mean I would think her kids are ill used.
I never meant this. But that didnt keep me from clarifying and (in hindsight I hope I apologized) apologising.
It happens. But it is much easier to resolve, because if you dont mean to offend, any suggestion that you did offend would be taken seriously and remedied.
If you dont care if you offend, it is another kettle of fish entirely.
I have offended people accidentally. We all do. But I dont think it is a problem for me when somebody misunderstands my intent. I am more than happy to make things right.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
So now I am really confused. Does this mean in order to not let someone misunderstand I cannot state that I do not force my child to have her diaper changed? My dd is potty learned, but when she was in diapers, I did not force her to be changed. That does not mean I am neglectful. So someone misunderstood. She did not choose to ask more about it or read more about it. *But how does that pertain to this conversation?* Are you suggesting we should censor against diaper changing discussion?


I am suggesing that abrasiveness turns people off. I was surprised myself by some of the ugly arguements on this board. i dont know, i just thought MDC members were "better" than that. I was usuing the example to show how nastiness makes other view AP/GD parents.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
I don't post much in this forum but I just wanted to add my $.0002. (Yes, the zeros are intended







)

I was shocked to see a recent thread where after a poster who was new to MDC posted about using tokens or whatnot, there were several SERIOUSLY SARCASTIC posts. There were some people posting things like "let's be nice to the newbie, but..." - it came off as shockingly condescending to that poster (who as I recall did not return to the thread, gee wonder why not!).

The whole 'atmosphere' of that thread was so ugly to me. Whatever it is that was done on that thread, if we can NOT do that to each other, I think that would be good.

And yeah, you can't assume everyone who comes here has read or even heard of Alfie Kohn. To 99.99% of the parents out there, 'positive reinforcement' (rewards) is the very definition of gentle discipline. So unless this forum is meant to be a closed club of people who have all read the same books, I think it behooves people who are against rewards & token systems (just for example) to be...gentle and for heaven's sake not SARCASTIC to people who come here and talk about using them, especially if those people are new. And it might also behoove us to consider the remote possibility that there is room for this type of thing under the umbrella of Gentle Parenting. Instead I see an undercurrent of ridicule for people who are not 'initiated' into some of the parenting concepts that are de rigeur in this forum.

Elizabeth


YES! I am always interested in seeing what other people do so i read. But when someone is being nasty it doesnt make me think "wow, what a great person i sooo want to take their advice" Instead i think they are a petty irritating person and it is hard to see past their negativity and actuall "hear" what they are saying. It is one reason i am very mindful to drive courteously. I have a car covered in breastfeeding advocacy stickers and i wouldnt want people to think "there goes another butthead breastfeeding jerk!"


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

I think one of the most important things that we GDers need to realize is how we come across to those who want to GD but are intimidated by the whole process. Let me give you an example from my own life.

I want to practice better nutrition, but it is a real challenge for me because I love junk food. So I will start to read about nutrition and visit some internet sites and maybe hit a couple of message boards, where I read that widgits are really, really good for you. So are gogits and mogits Great. I go to the health food store and buy some widgits and gogits and mogits. I eat them, I feed them to my DS, and I feel like I have taken a big step in my plan to have better nutrition. The next day, I log into my message boards and I read an article by someone saying that widgits are still good for you, but gogits and mogits are bad and will make you fat and give you cancer. Feeling defeated, I get rid of my gogits and mogits and go right on eating widgits. A couple of weeks later, someone links to an article in a medical journal that says that widgits once appeared to be good for you, but they were wrong. mogits are still bad, but they've reviewed gogits and now think that they may not be as bad as they once were. If you will recall, I still have widgits but have thrown away my expensive gogits and mogits. I get frustrated and defeated and give up on the whole idea of good nutrition because it is too hard for me.

Many, many people (myself included) struggle with gentle discipline. When they come to a forum like this one (in my opinion, the premier positive/gentle discipline forum on the internet) and people start bashing them for taking away their kids' crayons when they're coloring on the wall, or telling them they're ruining their child's self-esteem by saying "good job" - these are the kinds of statements that will force them to give it all up as a bad job. Becuase they are in search of the best way, when they get too bogged down in the details it causes them to feel overwhelmed and just let it go rather than try harder. It's not just a matter of being strong in your beliefs and having a tough skin - if you're seeking information and people start yelling or portraying themselves as saints, that's when it starts to go downhill.

Don't get me wrong, I've learned a TON from the detailed conversations on this board. But that's because I'm no longer seeking a way of doing things, I'm simply trying to fine tune as system that's already in place and I'm able to shrug off the posts that don't pertain to what I'm looking for. Not everyone on here is a GD guru, and we all have different ways of doing things. I would hate to scare off people by overanalyizing and nitpicking everything.

When you're trying to catch a fish, there is a moment where the hook is in the fish's mouth, but it hasn't caught yet. If you pull too hard the hook will fall out and you will lose the fish. If you don't pull enough the hook will fall out and you will lose the fish. You have to pull just right, just enough to set the hook, and then you can reel in the fish. That's how we should be self moderating our posts. Think of the fish, people.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cali's-hippymama*
I am suggesing that abrasiveness turns people off. I was surprised myself by some of the ugly arguements on this board. i dont know, i just thought MDC members were "better" than that. I was usuing the example to show how nastiness makes other view AP/GD parents.


I just do not understand how anything in that topic is "nastiness". You stated that your friend was appalled by the idea, not how it was presented. You did not mention that their was "nastiness" in the thread that your friend read. I took it to mean that your friend was shocked that anyone thought it was OK to wait until their dc was ready and willing before changing a diaper. Which does not in itself seem mean spirited. So I am just confused.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
I just do not understand how anything in that topic is "nastiness". You stated that your friend was appalled by the idea, not how it was presented. You did not mention that their was "nastiness" in the thread that your friend read. I took it to mean that your friend was shocked that anyone thought it was OK to wait until their dc was ready and willing before changing a diaper. Which does not in itself seem mean spirited. So I am just confused.

I guess i should have just stayed out of it. BUT this woman (not a friend just a lady who asked me a ? on another site) was turned off by how this thread about something was turned into this debate about how redirection, rewards, etc was turned into this thing about NEVER telling your child to do anything INCLUDING changing their dirty diaper. To someone new to this site that was pretty aweful as she is imagining leaving a baby in their waste all day. Again, i DID NOT read whatever thread she was talking about. BUT just another example of how we just pick apart each and every post. I think the name of this forum should be GD debate. And like the rest of my thread mentioned no one likes feeling like they are being beaten into submission.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
And yeah, you can't assume everyone who comes here has read or even heard of Alfie Kohn. To 99.99% of the parents out there, 'positive reinforcement' (rewards) is the very definition of gentle discipline. So unless this forum is meant to be a closed club of people who have all read the same books, I think it behooves people who are against rewards & token systems (just for example) to be...gentle and for heaven's sake not SARCASTIC to people who come here and talk about using them, especially if those people are new. And it might also behoove us to consider the remote possibility that there is room for this type of thing under the umbrella of Gentle Parenting. Instead I see an undercurrent of ridicule for people who are not 'initiated' into some of the parenting concepts that are de rigeur in this forum.

It's not none of your beeswax and I agree 100%.
and want to add, that even those of us who have read all the same books STILL dont agree on them, and pick and choose among different ideas.
So three women who have read the same 3 books might have entilrey different viewpoints.


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## julesmom (Apr 18, 2005)

Completely off topic....

lisac77, thank you so much for this paragraph:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisac77*
I want to practice better nutrition, but it is a real challenge for me because I love junk food. So I will start to read about nutrition and visit some internet sites and maybe hit a couple of message boards, where I read that widgits are really, really good for you. So are gogits and mogits Great. I go to the health food store and buy some widgits and gogits and mogits. I eat them, I feed them to my DS, and I feel like I have taken a big step in my plan to have better nutrition. The next day, I log into my message boards and I read an article by someone saying that widgits are still good for you, but gogits and mogits are bad and will make you fat and give you cancer. Feeling defeated, I get rid of my gogits and mogits and go right on eating widgits. A couple of weeks later, someone links to an article in a medical journal that says that widgits once appeared to be good for you, but they were wrong. mogits are still bad, but they've reviewed gogits and now think that they may not be as bad as they once were. If you will recall, I still have widgits but have thrown away my expensive gogits and mogits. I get frustrated and defeated and give up on the whole idea of good nutrition because it is too hard for me.

Your post is very true for me and really made me smile, thank you!

My new favorite quote is now "Think of the fish, people."







So true!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I haven't had a chance to read through this entire thread, just snippets. I've been on these boards for a long time, and I've been a mod here too, and I've seen these conversations come up in NUMEROUS forums here at MDC, not just the GD one.

And before I was interested in parenting I belonged to equestrian boards b/c that was my passion. And I was there for years and I saw the EXACT SAME DISCUSSIONS only there instead of "GD vs spanking" it was "natural horsemanship verus those-other-nasty-trainers-who-hit-their-horses" and it was "classical versus competitive" training techniques and it was "going deep versus breaking at the poll", blah blah blah.... Otherwise it was ALL THE SAME, how people need to be nice, non-judgemental, welcoming, etc....you could superimpose this thread on all those ones and not know the difference.

And you know, after posting on internet discussions boards for about a decade now, I can tell alot of you that the answer is to just get over it and grow a thicker skin. This is the reality of discussion boards: there are certain aspects that make them prone to such complaints and if you are going to spend time on boards you need to understand some things:

1) you can't pick who comes here; some are sophisticated, educated conversationalists, and some have limited abilities with basic grammar or with getting their thoughts into clear words....and all these people have things to say. You just aren't always going to understand where they are coming from, or you just plain don't like their conversational "style" or you just plain don't mesh with that personality type. It's easier to avoid them IRL then on the Internet.

2) text is an extremely limiting medium for discussion of passionate subjects: even with smilies it is very hard to convey tone. I have offended more people than I can count simply by not being careful to word things a certain way, or to add a "disclaimer sentence" just in case. The more experience I get here, the better I get at it. But it's a learned skill, and many people simply don't have the experience on boards to understand just how much what they are saying can either get twisted around, or come across wrong, etc.

3) and of course some people are just plain mean and abrasive and, as IRL, the best thing to do is just ignore them and keep speaking to the people who are being at least constructive in their participation

4) these are PUBLIC boards; OP's don't "own" a thread, and have no right to get "pissed off" when conversations disgress to offshoot topics. you can't start making rules like "everybody looking for support only has to say so" etc. You can ask that vulgarity and outright attacks be moderated, but you can't moderate conversational style; some people are just abrupt. that doesn't make them "mean" or "judgemental"

5) when someone posts something you find offensive or judgemental MODEL THE BEHAVIOUR YOU WISH TO SEE. If I post something that offends someone I am FAR more likely to feel bad about it and apologize if the offended party is nice about it "hey, Piglet, I think you are trying to make an interesting point but I can't help but feel a bit slagged by your comment here..." instead of "wow, what a judgemental woman you are! I bet you think you are just the greatest GD'er ever, miss gentler-than-thou"...because MOST people don't want to hurt or offend others, and when they do it's usually just a poor choice of words. Assuming they are a monster is not going to help them apologize.

6) remember that for some people, especially those who are "newly converted" to AP or GD, they can be really, really zealous about it. Not because they are horrible, judgemental people at all, but because they are just so excited and passionate about this whole new view on life that they have found, that they can't WAIT to share it with others. It happened to me and I've seen it in countless newbies on this board, where they are just zealous and they offend without realizing it or meaning to be hurtful or rude; they just get a bit overboard and lost in their own passion and fail to see that spreading the word is about compassion and understanding and connecting, not alienating and insulting and demonizing. In other words, their hearts are in the right place, but they need examples of how to discuss with understanding. I learned that from wonderful role models when I first came here. Now I try to model that myself.

So there....that's my two cents on the issue.







This is a great forum, it has so much to teach, and if you find yourself offended then you probably just need to put it all in perspective. I can't tell you how many times I used to get so worked up over internet discussion board threads that I was literally suffering from anxiety for days and getting a stomach ache over it. I've learned over the years how to avoid that. Y'all will too.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Piglet68!


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Yea, Piglet68!


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## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)




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## PaganScribe (Feb 14, 2003)

I don't post here often, but I read a lot.

I have a couple of things that come up for me while reading this thread.

First, I don't have a problem with someone who says "I think timeouts are damaging to children." It's an opinion; I'm sure it's reasoned; it's not disrespectful or awful or judgemental or whatever. It's no different than saying "I think spanking is damaging to children" or "I think vaccines are damaging to children."

So, I absolutely agree with the idea that we should be gentle with each other and that we should not make inflammatory statements -- but we're all going to have different opinions of what "inflammatory statements" are. Johub apparently thinks that the above statement is not respectful. I disagree; I don't think there's anything disrespectful about it. So simply saying "We should all be careful how we word things and be respectful of each other and be diplomatic" isn't really going to be helpful, IMO, because we are all going to have different opinons of what those things are.

So what happens when a Mama comes along and says to me "I was offended and hurt when you said that time outs are damaging to children; I use time outs and I don't think I'm damaging my children . . . " or whatever? I'm going to say "I'm sorry that you were hurt and offended, it was not my intent to offend, but I do believe that timeouts are damaging. I don't think they're ever a good idea." I don't think backing off of my opinion is going to mean that I'm being more respectful or more diplomatic or whatever. While I understand the desire for using "I" statements and all, there is a difference between "I don't think timeouts work for my family" and "I think timeouts are wrong." Sometimes there is a place for value judgements, and we are all going to draw that line in a different place so I don't think it's useful to try to define what kind of statement is or isn't okay.

I also think that just because I (or whoever) have a strongly held and well reasoned opinion means that I am not considering others' feelings. I am not being mean or inconsiderate or thoughtless when I say "I think timeouts are wrong." I am merely stating what is, I believe down to my bones, as true a statement as "I think spanking is wrong." I do, and I always will, and I believe it in all situations. I believe there is ALWAYS a better alternative.

But the thing is -- saying that I believe time outs are wrong does NOT mean that I think that you (generic you) are a bad mother. It does NOT mean that I am judging you and thinking horrible things about you because you use them. In fact, I really truly believe that EVERY MAMA HERE is making the decisions that she believes are ABSOLUTELY in the best interest of her child. I am not saying, by saying that timeouts are wrong, that you are a horrible mom if you use them, or that you are trying to hurt your children, or whatever. Does it mean that I think you made a poor choice if you chose to use a time out? Yes, it does, but it doesn't mean that I don't believe you made what you believed was the best choice for your family.

And you know what? You are free to think I'm wrong. You are free to think and tell me "Well, I think you are making a poor choice by not using time outs with your child." THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. There is nothing disrespectful or mean or nasty with that. It is two people who disagree about a very complex subject and hopefully, if we are trying to reach understanding (which I would think is why we are posting on a message board?), then the next thing we will do is each discuss our reasons for believing what we do. And maybe neither of us will change our minds, but that's OKAY.

Disagreeing (or attacking) someone's opinion is NOT the same as attacking them. Making a judgement about a specific practice (ie, timeouts) is NOT the same as judging the worth of a mother.

It seems to me in this thread a lot of attention has been paid to "we should be gentle with each other" and I do agree with that sentiment -- but my definition of gentle and yours are probably going to be different. Maybe we should also be talking about taking responsibility for our reactions to statements, and opinions. Certianly, we should be gentle with each other, but we should ALSO not take disagreement as attack. We shouldn't take things personally when they aren't intended that way.

Mostly, I think we should do what I believe is one of the most important things in GD -- we should assume positive intentions. We should assume every mother is trying to do the best thing for her child. We should assume everyone who posts is not trying to be hurtful, but to be helpful. We shouldn't assume the worst of each other, but the best.


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## Starflower (Sep 25, 2004)

:







:







:

I think Piglet summed it up well.


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## Jennisee (Nov 15, 2004)

I am all for posting respectfully, taking others feelings into account, trying to use "I" statements instead of "you" statements, etc. I think doing these things would go a long way towards making peace in tense forums.

However, I totally agree with yoopervegan here:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
And I have to know. What exactly is the difference between a judgement and an opinion? What I seem to get out of this is that it is a judgement if one does not agree with the opinion, but it is an opinion if one does agree.

This is an attitude that I find pervasive on MDC. I cannot count the number of times I have seen people cry "judgemental" or "flames" when someone respectfully disagreed with them. How do you have a civil discussion with someone who perceives your disagreement to be an attack? I think Piglet nailed it on the head, and sometimes we all need to take a step back and not assume things so personally.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Also being a veteran of many other ENTHUSIASTIC message boards, I would agree that Piglet nailed it.

It's the nature of the beast.

Perhaps we can *all* act a bit as moderators and try to keep the conversation gentle?

I really think that's the best we can hope for.

No matter what, this is a valuable forum.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Piglet68 and PaganScribe, I loved your posts. Interesting, I am going to be a bit of a dissenting opinon to Piglet's "get over it and grow a thicker skin". Living with two Highly Sensitive males, both dh and ds, I understand that their perspective of any situation affecting them, *does* matter, irrelevant of my intent. There is a dance of seeking mutually agreed upon definitions to situations which make communications more effective. And just as we discussed in not telling our children to 'get over their feelings', I don't believe that this is validating or practical advice.









I believe this thread helps us all to come to an clearer understanding of eaches' underlying needs relative to desiring "respect". Which is exactly the point that I keep







about related to children. Understanding the child's underlying needs and understanding that "respect" and "gentle" are determined by *their* perspective. Not mine. As I stated before, respect is treating someone like *they* wish to be treated. _Not only_ treating someone like _we_ wish to be treated (or think others should be treated). This goes for children too. From their perspective.

In an on-line "relationship" the issues are much more difficult to clarify because there are so many perspectives, as Piglet and PaganScribe described. But if the underlying need continues then the "objectionable behaviors" will continue as long as the needs are not addressed. Hopefully, this thread helps to address some of those needs for understanding of eaches' pov.

As a result, discussing what is or isn't GD isn't determined by 'where the *parent* is coming from'. (ie. if they hit their kids, imposing consequences instead is therefore more "gentle" and "more attachment" nurturing.) *The issue is the child's pov that they desire respect from *their* perspective*, which requires listening to the child and seeking to understand their underlying needs, not focusing on the behavior and how to modify it (the parent's pov). Through this thread's discussion, we *are* seeking to understand our (collective) underlying needs, and I trust that others here wish to respect each other in the manner that others wish to be treated. Just as I do. I just keep suggesting that we do the same for children, and this is heard as judgement of the parent.









Respect and gentle are in the eye of the beholder, not only the intender's perspective. And I have found this discussion significant and practical because my goal is to understand the underlying needs of both the parent and the child, in my efforts to advocate for the child's pov (which in our culture is much harder for most adults to hear than their own). Just as it is harder _for me_ to hear the parent's pov than the child's. The child's voice is still very loud in my ears when I hear parents disrespecting their child's dissent. Is this "judgement" to hear another's pov and attempt to convey it? I don't intend any judgement of the parent; and I do try to respect the parent's pov by suggesting solutions which address both needs: the child's and the parent's, not just the parents. But, I see how it could be (is?) perceived as 'judging' when I convey that the child is dissenting and that I believe that this is not gentle nor respectful from a child's pov.

Seems we need a mutually agreed upon definition of 'judging' to be clarified.

Pat


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
I trust that others here wish to respect each other in the manner that others wish to be treated. Just as I do. I just keep suggesting that we do the same for children, and this is heard as judgement of the parent.

Really excellent points!

-----------------

I'm interested in considering how much responsibility to the ones initiating communicating have in the responses of others.

I mean, it's pretty clear (to me anyway) how that work in marriage, family, and friendships. But when we talk about something publically and with no knowledge or control over who read it, what their particular issues/needs are, or how they will receive it, how much responsibility do we have in the end in those cases?

Sometimes, like Piglet and Pagan pointed out, people will be offended at the _message_, and no amount of rephrasing will get to their underlying need for respect. Nothing short of "Everything is great!" will make those people feel good about being here (anywhere in online discussions...) This is very clear in the recent drama over the spanking article, and all the thoughts on the authors blog comments.

What are your thoughts??

By the way, I can't believe I got to type all that right now... I've been so interrupted!







It may not make a lick of sense!!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Aira,

Are you saying that someone might react by 'shooting the messenger' due to the *message* they don't want to have just read as a result of the difficulty in predicting your (collective) personal filters when communicating on-line? Or that some people just want to 'feel good' about whatever they are doing and no matter the 'how' of the message, they don't want to hear a different opinion or pov?

I believe, as Piglet stated, effectively communicating (both, speaking and listening) on a public board is a developed skill when one hopes to meet this underlying need of empathy due to such varied perspectives, histories and baggage.

Certainly, validating the parent is something I could focus more on. But, there seems to be plenty of that going around in our culture which generally considers children with negative connotations of 'manipulative' and controlling, rather than perceiving their behaviors as seeking to meet underlying needs.

Pat


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I definitely think that respect and decorum are vital.

However, I'm not sure that's the crux of what's going on here.

People aren't talking about the disrespectful "camp" and the respectful "camp."

People aren't suggesting subforums for those who are polite and those who are rude.

I sense there is real resentment for for non-coercive points of view, period.

In a recent thread where I stated that I thought sending a child to bed hungry was cruel, I was told by several posters that I was an extremist and merely a vocal minority here.

Maybe I am extreme and maybe I am in the minority on that issue, but I would like to be able to express my opinion of a discipline practice without being told I'm too 'out there' to have a voice here.

fussy baby....gotta run


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Are you saying that someone might react by 'shooting the messenger' due to the message they don't want to have just read as a result of the difficulty in predicting your (collective) personal filters when communicating on-line? Or that some people just want to 'feel good' about whatever they are doing and no matter the 'how' of the message, they don't want to hear a different opinion or pov?

I think both happen. And how much responsibility do we bear in each case? It is a skill to learn this online communication business. And I wholeheartedly agree with this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
...there seems to be plenty of that going around in our culture which generally considers children with negative connotations of 'manipulative' and controlling, rather perceiving their behaviors as seeking to meet underlying needs.

I feel exactly the same way.

Monkey's mom... another great post. I wish I could've said that as clearly as you did.

I guess I'm trying to get at this:

Some people have a way with words, and others... not... have... way.

That's me - Not have way.

Thank you for those who do!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

PaganScribe- wonderful post- great points!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
6) remember that for some people, especially those who are "newly converted" to AP or GD, they can be really, really zealous about it. Not because they are horrible, judgemental people at all, but because they are just so excited and passionate about this whole new view on life that they have found, that they can't WAIT to share it with others. It happened to me and I've seen it in countless newbies on this board, where they are just zealous and they offend without realizing it or meaning to be hurtful or rude; they just get a bit overboard and lost in their own passion and fail to see that spreading the word is about compassion and understanding and connecting, not alienating and insulting and demonizing. In other words, their hearts are in the right place, but they need examples of how to discuss with understanding. I learned that from wonderful role models when I first came here. Now I try to model that myself.

Definitely that!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

You know what else I find interesting? On boards where people have met IRL, you rarely get any sort of flaming or bad threads. In my "local MDC tribe" forum we are overly polite and respectful, easily apologize for anything misconstrued...but that rarely happens. It's really interesting to see how differently people act (post) when it's a real person on the other end that you know and will run into from time to time.

I think sometimes people find it therapeutic to "lash out" online because there is no "real person" and it allows them to be the person they are afraid to be IRL. Like for me, I'm a very non-confrontational person - I don't have the constitution to engage in conflict with people I don't know extremely well. It can feel a bit therapeutic sometimes to take a more aggressive stance online, sort of "get in touch with my inner bitch", IYKWIM.









I think if we "regulars" model the kind of behaviour we want to see here, by pointing out offenses politely, and by apologizing when we've made them (or at least clarifying), then we will influence how new people coming here will behave.


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
You know what else I find interesting? On boards where people have met IRL, you rarely get any sort of flaming or bad threads. In my "local MDC tribe" forum we are overly polite and respectful, easily apologize for anything misconstrued...but that rarely happens. It's really interesting to see how differently people act (post) when it's a real person on the other end that you know and will run into from time to time.

I think sometimes people find it therapeutic to "lash out" online because there is no "real person" and it allows them to be the person they are afraid to be IRL. Like for me, I'm a very non-confrontational person - I don't have the constitution to engage in conflict with people I don't know extremely well. It can feel a bit therapeutic sometimes to take a more aggressive stance online, sort of "get in touch with my inner bitch", IYKWIM.









I think if we "regulars" model the kind of behaviour we want to see here, by pointing out offenses politely, and by apologizing when we've made them (or at least clarifying), then we will influence how new people coming here will behave.











Great post Piglet! You put my thoughts into words here. The anonymity of the internet makes it much easier to be more aggressive than most people would be in a face to face conversation. I just wanted to say I agree with your post completely, and loved the idea of "getting in touch with the inner bitch"


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
You know what else I find interesting? On boards where people have met IRL, you rarely get any sort of flaming or bad threads. In my "local MDC tribe" forum we are overly polite and respectful, easily apologize for anything misconstrued...but that rarely happens. It's really interesting to see how differently people act (post) when it's a real person on the other end that you know and will run into from time to time.

I think sometimes people find it therapeutic to "lash out" online because there is no "real person" and it allows them to be the person they are afraid to be IRL. Like for me, I'm a very non-confrontational person - I don't have the constitution to engage in conflict with people I don't know extremely well. It can feel a bit therapeutic sometimes to take a more aggressive stance online, sort of "get in touch with my inner bitch", IYKWIM.









I think if we "regulars" model the kind of behaviour we want to see here, by pointing out offenses politely, and by apologizing when we've made them (or at least clarifying), then we will influence how new people coming here will behave.

And then, maybe, we'll be less likely to lash out at our kids. So, maybe, we should actually be MEANER to each other!

Just kidding, I think this is a great point, and a great thread. I think it's interesting that people on both sides of the "coercion" fence have said that they feel outnumbered and undervalued, and that the other side's trying to run them off. It's just such an emotionally loaded issue.


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

I agree it is emotionally charged, which is the root of the problem. Whenever a person feels passionately about something, as we all do about parenting/discipline, you are more likely to state those beliefs vocally and forcefully. In most cases, not meaning to offend or drive anyone away, but just because we all do feel so strongly about our individual style. It's easy to get carried away by that passion and forget the person on the receiving end.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PaganScribe*
First, I don't have a problem with someone who says "I think timeouts are damaging to children." It's an opinion; I'm sure it's reasoned; it's not disrespectful or awful or judgemental or whatever. It's no different than saying "I think spanking is damaging to children" or "I think vaccines are damaging to children."

So, I absolutely agree with the idea that we should be gentle with each other and that we should not make inflammatory statements -- but we're all going to have different opinions of what "inflammatory statements" are. Johub apparently thinks that the above statement is not respectful. I disagree; I don't think there's anything disrespectful about it. So simply saying "We should all be careful how we word things and be respectful of each other and be diplomatic" isn't really going to be helpful, IMO, because we are all going to have different opinons of what those things are.

.

I am sorry you have misunderstood, so I will restate. I think that clarifying a belief with an "I think" or an "I believe" IS the way to go to make statements that are diplomatic. I was advocating this very thing.
It is my belief that the statement "time outs are damaging to children" is less diplomatic than "I believe timeouts to be damaging to children".
When somebody tells me that time outs are damaging to children, and I have already said that I use time out, this makes me feel that it is implied that I am damaging my children. Which is something I would vehemently argue against.
However if somebody says "I believe timeouts are damaging to children" I have nothing to argue, because they have a right to their beliefs andto apply them to their children.
It is my perceptions that statements of belief are unique and individual and are to be applied by that person to their lives. Statements of "fact" are to be applied to all.
I may be unique in this perceptoin however.
And I agree 100% with Piglet it is important to realize that not everybody who comes here has learned how to communicate effectively and diplomatically (yet, it improves with time certainly) and they have every right to be here and express their thoughts. (and just about the rest of your post I agree with too. Lots of things to keep in mind)
Joline


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

ON second thought. I dont think there is any way to explain this thought or idea in a way which is not very likely to be offensive or taken personally by some, even if I mean to be as neutral as possible, so I deleted it.


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

This thread is so long, read a couple of pages into it, one post by you Joline, had me nodding.

As an adult survivor of child abuse, I think it's really over the top what some people call child abuse around here. I also think it's very valid for people to get their backs up if people suggest that commonly accepted GD parenting practises are child abuse. Calling something Child Abuse is an extremely strong statement, and in my opinion, it's lame lame lame lame and extremely disrespectful to true survivors of child abuse to toss this term around in order to add juice to a strong opinion.

I was in the Canadian child and family services system from 13-18 yrs old and spent time with some very severely abused children who would be grossly offended at how easily that term is tossed around in this place.

I personally appreciate reading diverse interpretations of GD here, this place would suck if there was only one narrow definition of what was acceptable GD. Well, since I haven't read the last few pages I'm sure my post is really out of touch with where the thread's at now, so on with your regulalry scheduled programming.


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## mamakay (Apr 8, 2005)

Aaaahh..
I've read this whole thread and a few similar other ones, and I'm still not sure what is and isn't "gd".
Ergo, I'm not sure if _I'm_ practicing what is known as GD.
I guess I'm closer to the "logical consequences are sometimes ok" group. Like, when my 2 yo is flipping out I'll every once in a while put him in "time out" for maybe 15 seconds beside me on the couch till he agrees to talk.
Or if he throws something at me out of anger, I put it on the shelf till he gets that we don't throw stuff at people, which is about 10-15 seconds after whatever happened.
(btw, I am looking for alternatives. Please feel free to post ideas about what else I could do. Right now this method is working about 50/50.)
Anyway, I'm not sure I belong here.
While I have no desire to just "control" my child, sometimes his 2yoldness is totally unacceptable, and his throwing stuff at people needs some tempering.
I understand that it's just him being 2. I'm not expecting him to be 4. It's just a matter of me communicating to him that "If you hurl that firetruck at your great-grandmother, it's going on the shelf until you're calm enough to not throw it at people.
And I've found that just mentoning that I'll put the thrown object on the shelf till he agrees to not throw it at someone makes him reconsider throwing it in the first place.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Soundhunter*
As an adult survivor of child abuse, I think it's really over the top what some people call child abuse around here. I also think it's very valid for people to get their backs up if people suggest that commonly accepted GD parenting practises are child abuse. Calling something Child Abuse is an extremely strong statement, and in my opinion, it's lame lame lame lame and extremely disrespectful to true survivors of child abuse to toss this term around in order to add juice to a strong opinion.

I've never been able to understand this thinking... that differing degrees of something make lesser degrees invalid.

I'm also a survivor of serious abuse and psychological torture. In no way whatsoever do I feel a diminishing of my experience because others were "less abused" than I was. And it's really unfair to them to invalidate what harmed them just beacuse you had it worse.

I suppose that holocaust survivors wouldn't consider my childhood abusive in camparison to their abuse. But that doesn't make it _not_ abuse. There are degrees of everything and they are not linearly comparable. I'm actually disturbed that people try to do that.

If a person is/was harmed by an act commited on them, they were harmed. End of story. No one else gets to decide if they were.


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## PaganScribe (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
I am sorry you have misunderstood, so I will restate. I think that clarifying a belief with an "I think" or an "I believe" IS the way to go to make statements that are diplomatic. I was advocating this very thing.
It is my belief that the statement "time outs are damaging to children" is less

Ah, I did misunderstand. In the examples that I remembered you using as diplmatic, I was remembering you saying "In my family . . . " or "For my child . . ." I think those are completely different statments than "I believe xxx is wrong" because they are not qualified in some way. Looking back, I see that I was just remembering in a distorted way.

My apologies for the misunderstanding.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

a bit off topic but....aira, I've never heard that POV expressed as you did. that was a very eloquent post and it gave me something to think about...


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## Kira's mom (Nov 30, 2004)

I have to admit that at times i've thought things have gone a bit too far,and then low and behold i open my mind and start learning something new! I find that this forum is a mind opening experience.There is so much to learn in this world every day.I also feel that the posters are a pretty strong bunch of parents with alot to say. I, myself am pretty sensitive.It can be difficult to be strong/weak all at once.For the most part i don't think anyone is intentionally trying to cause hurt.As a pp said (in so many words)it would be nice if we treated others on this board with the same respect as we purport to treat our children.I couldn't have put it better.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I've been thinking about this thread, this forum, and my part in both.

I would like to apologize if people have been hurt or offended by anything I've said here. Truly, I'm sorry. It's not ever my intent to cause anyone bad feelings.

And, I've been thinking about why that may have happened and if I have been rude here, etc. And I realized that I often do get frustrated here. And then I've tried to discern why.

Firstly, I don't think I've realized how shocking (and almost like a betrayal) it is for me to read about discipline practices by other GD moms, that don't seem gentle *to me.* It's one thing to go to a mainstream board and read all sorts of things that make me cringe--I guess I expect it. I don't feel the same kinship to those posters, like I do here. It just doesn't bother me as much. But when I hear it here, I just feel awful. I feel threatened, I think. Threatened that I may no longer be in the right place. Which is why I felt so badly when people suggested that we leave or move.

The second reason I think I've felt so frustrated here, is that I'm really tired of seeing (or posting, myself) a non-coercive suggestion to a situation and having someone say, "Yeah, RIGHT! I'll just let them do whatever they want all the time. B/c that's the real world!" Or some such response. It's hard to continue a dialogue after that, you know? But, I also feel it's important not to just let misperception remain. So, I probably get a bit defensive and stridant and posty trying to clarify how it really can work.

Anyway, I am going to work on identifying and changing my behavior in these situations.

And my apologies, again.


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## Jish (Dec 12, 2001)

I miss the good old days of years gone by.









I think that many of us forget that the name of this forum is Gentle *Discipline.* Some people will see gentle discipline as positive reinforcement, gentle timeouts when needed and logical consequences. Some people will see gentle discipline as only natural consequences and absolutely no coersion. Frankly, I think we are forgetting the "discipline" part of the title, it's not Gentle Parenting. I don't have a problem at all with a parent coming here and asking for advice on how to make time out work more effectively for them. Here is where I feel the problem lies. It seems like so much of the time we feel the need to "convert" people from their "ignorance," and thus we get in on the thread and start talking about how damaging we feel timeouts are and how if they would try our way life would be peachy.

What we forget is that perhaps the poster has read the non-coersive parenting posts but still feels that timeouts are the way to go. What is wrong with that parent being able to discuss timeout with other parents who want to responsibly practice time out. Some people don't punish, some do, as long as we are all gentle in our discipline we should be able to post. There is a vast plain of what is considered Gentle Discipline on the spectrum. Just because we don't agree with something doesn't necessarily mean that everyone who does it is wrong. Yet that seems to be the sentiment that is so often seen.

Why is it so hard to not post to a timeout thread if you don't practice timeout. Why do we all feel the need to prove how GD we are and convert everyone to our precise way of parenting. Can parents who practice time out, not coexist with those who practice TCS? Can we not understand that what is gentle discipline to one may be coersive to another, yet that doesn't make either of them "right?" The older I (and my children) get, and the more life and parenting experience I have under my belt the more I realize how these petty arguements mean nothing in the long run. The parents who practice time out and set limits are no less loving or AP to their children than the parents who practice non-coersive parenting. On the flip side, those children who had limits and gasp -- punishments on occasion don't love their parents any less than those who never had limits or punishment.

I don't think that we should all have to have read a particular book or author to post on the GD board. How boring would it be if we all had the exact same parenting ideals. Heck, we wouldn't need this board. What we need to remember is that it is okay that we all choose to raise our children a little bit differently. If I choose to set limits, bedtimes, and use timeout, it doesn't make me a lesser parent than you who might choose to parent non-coersively. I also don't feel that anyone should feel I'm doing it "wrong" just because I'm not doing it their way. After all, my parenting has evolved and continues to as I become a more experienced parent.

I guess what I don't understand is why we can't have a more varied set of topics without everyone feeling that they need to make their opinions known on topics they don't agree with. I read many posts that I don't agree with the theory, but you know what, I respect the opinions of the posters, and their right to have those opinions and feel that way. I don't feel they are wrong in their parenting, if it works for them, great. I don't feel the need to try to convince them that their life would be easier if they would set a bedtime for their child, or take away the crayons if the wall has marks on it. We don't feel the same way, and I feel it's disrespectful as well as useless to try to make them feel exactly as I do. My way isn't their way, and that's okay.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Reading with interest...GD is my favorite forum on MDC. I love the hot debates here and I love the threads where parents are getting loving support in a time of need. They're not always so great when combined though : )


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Piglet, you are my hero.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
You know what else I find interesting? On boards where people have met IRL, you rarely get any sort of flaming or bad threads. In my "local MDC tribe" forum we are overly polite and respectful, easily apologize for anything misconstrued...but that rarely happens. It's really interesting to see how differently people act (post) when it's a real person on the other end that you know and will run into from time to time.

It's definitely different for me. It's because I don't like to disagree with people I know in IRL and because I don't take advice well from people I know IRL. I like to get and give here. Also because I'm more comfortable talking about new ideas with people I don't know well...fewer expectations and all. I was just talking about MDC to a friend and how much I appreciated talking about issues with people who didn't have preconceived ideas about me and my life. It's therapeutic in a way. Now if they'd only make a coupling.commune









I finished reading and wanted to say how sorry I am to read that people feel uncomfortable here. I've always felt really comfortable in the GD forum because I get thoughtful advice and stimulating discussions.

What I noticed and what I was alluding to in my first post is that they're not always best when combined. I do think there is a certain amount of obligation to respect the OP if they are discussing their personal life and their discipline struggles. While I know that respect and support can take different forms, ongoing unwanted debate about a member's personal life as the subject is rude, imo. If a person shares something for support only, or for only one kind of advice or if they become uncomfortable then the conversation should continue on neutral territory. JMO.

I'm also sorry to see the debate over the TCS and...is there a name for this...PD, authoritative...regular GD? I didn't see if this was mentioned but I think TCS was actually banned here for a while. And, I'm surprised because, although I'm not TCS, I find it really interesting and I've always appreciated the perspective. I also appreciate the perspective from the more authoritative parents here.

Anyway, I can see that this conversation is maybe coming to and end and I know there have been a lot of wise words. I also hope that we can find a way to make everyone feel welcome and comfortable. Hugs, mamas.


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