# Son bullied by three year olds



## Sarain (Oct 14, 2005)

Oh I REALLY need to VENT here!

Today I went to a Le Leche Leauge meeting with my 10.5 month old son, and I'm feeling pretty up-set at something that happened to him there..

All of us mom's were gatherd in a circle talking with the babies and kids playing in the middle. When all of a sudden a little three year old boy say's in a loud and mean voice to my baby " I'm going to cut your arms off!" and then an other little boy comes over and say's to my son "Yeah, we're going to cut you in half!" Although my son isn't old enough to understand what they were saying, he could pick up on the tone of there voices that it was not friendly, and he looked hurt and confused. Everyone at the meeting could hear what was said, including the mothers of the boys..However, nothing was done. The mother's did not seem to think this was a big deal. One mom my just said "oh my" and giggled a bit. I don't think my baby getting bullied is amusing or cute at all.
Are these mother's afraid to correct, and teach thier children about bullying, violence, as well as kindness, and feelings?? Also at this meeting these two little boy's were yelling, banging around and what not while the mom's were trying to talk! One new mom was very up-set and crying beacause she's having a lot of problems with breastfeeding, but we could hardly hear her with the boy's bashing toys together! Is this what GD is? Or are these just mom's who are affraid to correct/teach thier kids?? I wonder if other mothers could see that what was happening to my son was bullying? TWO kids GANGING up to threaten another child..What else could you call it?! It was shocking to see anyone ( yes, even three year olds) be mean to my son, because of couse being a happy little baby, almost all people he come's in contact with adore him. How dare ANYONE direct negativity towards my child! ahhhhh!

This is really bringing up a lot of emotions for me, because I was severly bullied at school as a child and it was horrible. My self-esteem was very low, and I absolutly hated most of my childhood BECAUSE of bullying. So seeing this happen to my baby today was extreamly up-setting to me. It really bother's me that some adults think bullying is no big deal, that it builds character! Abuse/Bullying/Violence is ALWAYS a big deal no matter what the age!! I'm planning on going back to more meetings, but if these kids threaten/bully my son again..I don't think I'm going to be able to sit back and let it happen. If this happen's again how should I handle it? Also I'm really thinking of home schooling now!

Thanks for letting me vent, I feel a bit better now.


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## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

What do you think should have happened?

I think the mom should have said something to the boys along the lines of "That's not a nice way to talk to someone." Or if the boys were play fighting with a baby the mom should have redirected them.

The 3 year olds banging toys, running and being loud sounds like normal 3 year old behaviour.


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## NewCrunchyDaddy (Jul 6, 2006)

I'm so sorry this happened to you and your son. How awful. I don't have any advice for you ... yet ... but I am interested in seeing what other Mamas say because while it hasn't happened directly to my DS yet (who is 13 months) ... there have been some instances where similar things have been close to happening but have been averted at the last minute. So, I'd also like to hear any suggestions on how to handle such a situation. Sorry that's not helpful.

(Honestly though, if I had been there and thought I could have acted without fear of reprisal, so to speak, I would have put the fear of the Everlasting God into those two bullies.







:







)


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## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

I think it's possible that 3year olds would like to engage the baby somehow, but don't always think of the best possible way to do it.

When my second was just 2 ish and he wanted to engage another child for play he'd walk up and spit raspberries on the other child. This was up to me to guide him in more socially acceptable ways of interacting with others. But was it malicious on his part?

My son also had a two year old friend that really liked him. He showed this by biting or pushing my son down at every possible turn. It was up to both of us moms to prevent it happening and if it did happen to comfort the injured and redirect the offending behaviour to more socially acceptable ways. They are now almost 3 and the two of them are best buddies.

Kids don't always make the best choices when interacting with each other. They are learning. It's up to the moms to guide acceptable behaviour.


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## NewCrunchyDaddy (Jul 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PumpkinSeeds* 
I think it's possible that 3year olds would like to engage the baby somehow, but don't always think of the best possible way to do it.

When my second was just 2 ish and he wanted to engage another child for play he'd walk up and spit raspberries on the other child. This was up to me to guide him in more socially acceptable ways of interacting with others. But was it malicious on his part?

My son also had a two year old friend that really liked him. He showed this by biting or pushing my son down at every possible turn. It was up to both of us moms to prevent it happening and if it did happen to comfort the injured and redirect the offending behaviour to more socially acceptable ways. They are now almost 3 and the two of them are best buddies.

Kids don't always make the best choices when interacting with each other. They are learning. It's up to the moms to guide acceptable behaviour.

But that seems to be the crux of the problem. The moms _weren't_ doing anything of the sort. What do you do then?

And for the record, I think that statements such as _"I'm going to cut your arms off!"_ and _"Yeah, we're going to cut you in half!"_ go _way_ beyond trying to "engage the baby somehow." That gets into some scary waters whether they're 3-year-olds or 30-year-olds.


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## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

Someday you will have a 3 year old too....

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NewCrunchyDaddy* 

(Honestly though, if I had been there and thought I could have acted without fear of reprisal, so to speak, I would have put the fear of the Everlasting God into those two bullies.







:







)


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## NewCrunchyDaddy (Jul 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PumpkinSeeds* 
Someday you will have a 3 year old too....

Yes I will ... and that sort of behavior will _not_ be tolerated and will be stopped immediately, and it's the sort of behavior that if I don't see, I would appreciate someone bringing to my attention because saying something like that is _not_ acceptable.


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## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

If it was me, in the situation the OP described, I would have said, "that's not a very nice thing to say. I don't think baby wants to play with someone who says rude things. Can you think of something nicer to say?"


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## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

I agree and I don't tolerate that sort of behaviour from my boys. But to think it will never happen or never come up is unrealistic in my opinion.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NewCrunchyDaddy* 
Yes I will ... and that sort of behavior will _not_ be tolerated and will be stopped immediately, and it's the sort of behavior that if I don't see, I would appreciate someone bringing to my attention because saying something like that is _not_ acceptable.


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## NewCrunchyDaddy (Jul 6, 2006)

.


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## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)




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## guestmama9911 (May 24, 2005)

You two are on the same page, essentially, that this behavior needs to be redirected. However, I don't think it is fair to call someone naive for feeling confident that they can curb violent tendencies in a child. You said yourself that you redirect the behavior, which shows that you don't tolerate it, either. NCDaddy will not be a parent who stands by while his child bullies others or gets bullied. That's not naive, that's good parenting.

I agree with the suggestion of addressing the children directly by saying "that's not a very nice thing to say..." particularly if the child's mother doesn't intervene. I have done this more than once, spoken directly to a child who had either pushed my child or stolen his toys. "Pushing isn't very nice, so-and-so. Can you please tell me what is wrong so we can solve your problem?" or "Ooops, you took DS' toy without asking. He wasn't done with it. Will you please give it back?"

I haven't had any parents complain yet, but I sure as hell have no problem telling a parent that their child pushed mine or did something mean. I'm a mama bear when it comes to my son. And holy crap, if some kids said that to my child, I definitely would have intervened. That kind of talk is creepy. I'd like to think I'd be an adult about it, but more than likely I would have said "Woah, I don't think so!" and would have picked up my son and held him away.


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## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

I don't doubt that you or your dh are fabulous parents.

Personally, the situation described in the OP wouldn't have shocked me very much. I would have thought maybe one or the other 3yo had an older sibling or friend with which they "play fight". Do three year old's always make the best choices when trying to interact with others? No. Do I think the mother should have intervened? Yes. WOuld I have intervened? Yes. Would I have called the 3yo a bully or put the everlasting fear of G. in him? No.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alisaterry* 
You two are on the same page, essentially, that this behavior needs to be redirected. However, I don't think it is fair to call someone naive for feeling confident that they can curb violent tendencies in a child. You said yourself that you redirect the behavior, which shows that you don't tolerate it, either. NCDaddy will not be a parent who stands by while his child bullies others or gets bullied. That's not naive, that's good parenting.


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## ewe+lamb (Jul 20, 2004)

Did the LLL Leader not ask the mothers to look after their children? It is the mother's responsibility that the children behave - LLL promotes Loving Guidance so therefore I think you should have been supported by your leader. I would have a word with her about the behaviour of the 3 year olds and ask her to make an announcement at the beginning of the next meeting saying that although this is time for mothers to support each other, the mother's first responsibility is her child so that the meeting is not disrupted, I have been to meetings where I just couldn't participate because I had to 'look after' my daughter it's annoying to miss stuff but I think it is more respectful to the other mothers to make sure that my child behaves properly. Well that's what we do at our meetings. I hope that you manage to go to other meetings where the actions of the toddlers is directed in a more effective manner.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I think that when you are the new parent of a baby, and do not have older children, its very common to experience other people's older children as big, threatening and obnoxious. I know that I did.

I also think that it would have been perfectly appropriate for YOU to speak to the little boys about your discomfort. There is no reason to sit and wait for their mothers to intervene. You could have said, _"He's just a little baby, and he thinks you are very big guys! Can you speak more gently to him please, so that he doesn't get scared?"_

I think that calling it "bullying" is a little bit extreme. I try to be careful not to attribute big kid or adult motives/behavior to little kids! I don't really think a 3 year old being verbally innapropriate to a baby who is safetly in his mother's arms constitutes a real threat.

I don't think that their words necessarily indicate "violent tendencies." I think they must have heard something or seen something (or multiple things) that they needed to play out in order to process. Violent play is classic at age 3 --- it almost seems like there is some cognitive leap at this point in development, and they need to play out the negative things they hear about in order to move past them.

I am wondering if either of them go to sunday school, and possibly heard the story about King Solomon announcing that he was going to cut the baby in half to resolve the dispute between the two mothers? Imagine for a minute that this is where they got the idea -- if someone big jumped in and put them down very sharply for reinacting this theme, it would be very confusing for them. So I think it needs to be gently redirected in the moment, and I hope that their mother processes with them later.

Like Pumkinseeds, nothing much about this incident surprises me. The loud banging play sounds normal for 3 year olds. The inappropriate language to the baby sounds like normal 3 year old experimentation.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

3 year olds are toddlers...very little kids. They do seem very big and very verbal and very loud when you have an infant....but they aren't.

I think the only suggestion I might make is to think about healing up that low self-esteem, angry place from being bullied at school, so you can negociate the rough waters of 2-5 with grace and joy.

Coloroso's The Bully, the Bullied and the Bystander is a wonderful book about bullying that might help a bit.

I'm so sorry other kids hurt you growing up.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

A 3 yr old saying they want to cut someone's arms doesn't seem quite normal to me.

Those other moms should have corrected their children. If you do NOTHING when your child acts like that, you are wrong.

No one is saying to beat the kids into a pulp or scream at them. But surely there is something that could have and should have been done. I have often seen moms in stores, etc, just allowing their kids to run helter skelter and just say things like, "now huuuuunnny. pleeeeeese don't ruuuuun." Or just smiling at them. It is just unreal.

Oh and I have a 9 yr old, a 7 yr old and a 1 yr old. I have BTDT. My boys have not been angels. But, if one of them had said such a horrible thing, there would have been consequences. Leaving would have most likely been the main one.

I am shocked at the defending of the 3 yr olds and their mothers, quite frankly. And at the insinuation that the parents who think this is terrible are somehow naive.


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## Fruitful4Him (Jun 22, 2002)

Well, I have seen this sort of behavior..at LLL and other misc. parenting groups. I do think that the moms should say/do something to guide their children appropriately..but if they don't/won't, then you should gently step in.. (maybe they would step in then?). Not as an excuse, but I think that sometimes these moms are just so exausted and happy/thankful to be around other adults/moms that they just sort of "forget" about the discipline issues. It can be rough though. I would just try to set a good example in how you approach things and maybe the other moms will follow suit.. or, if it makes you really, really uncomfortable you could talk to the leader about your concerns so she can make a verbal reminder at the start of the meeting. I have 4 children.. 7,6, and 17 month old girls and 1 very loving but occasionally rambuctious 3 and 1/2 yr old boy. I have noticed that my boy is more rough and tumble..but he can be sweet and loving too. I have watched other 3/4 yr olds play and some of it gets a lil rough..so, best to keep a watchful eye on 'em.. but generally, it is just playful stuff. I just redirect and try to explain more appropriate behavior. I get a lil worried about some of the other rough behavior or words I see in other little boys but I just keep my eyes open in case other parents aren't, for safety reasons.


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## Mama8 (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
I think that when you are the new parent of a baby, and do not have older children, its very common to experience other people's older children as big, threatening and obnoxious. I know that I did.

I also think that it would have been perfectly appropriate for YOU to speak to the little boys about your discomfort. There is no reason to sit and wait for their mothers to intervene. You could have said, _"He's just a little baby, and he thinks you are very big guys! Can you speak more gently to him please, so that he doesn't get scared?"_

I think that calling it "bullying" is a little bit extreme. I try to be careful not to attribute big kid or adult motives/behavior to little kids! I don't really think a 3 year old being verbally inappropriate to a baby who is safely in his mother's arms constitutes a real threat.

I don't think that their words necessarily indicate "violent tendencies." I think they must have heard something or seen something (or multiple things) that they needed to play out in order to process. Violent play is classic at age 3 --- it almost seems like there is some cognitive leap at this point in development, and they need to play out the negative things they hear about in order to move past them.

I am wondering if either of them go to sunday school, and possibly heard the story about King Solomon announcing that he was going to cut the baby in half to resolve the dispute between the two mothers? Imagine for a minute that this is where they got the idea -- if someone big jumped in and put them down very sharply for reinacting this theme, it would be very confusing for them. So I think it needs to be gently redirected in the moment, and I hope that their mother processes with them later.

Like Pumkinseeds, nothing much about this incident surprises me. The loud banging play sounds normal for 3 year olds. The inappropriate language to the baby sounds like normal 3 year old experimentation.









: Mamaduck you said it well. A 3 yr old is still very young a toddler. They should have been redirected gently. You would be surprised what can come out of perfectly normal 3 yr olds. My nephew who is now 15 took great delight one day when he was 3 to go into great detail how I was going to be eating by a monster, complete with blood and skin peeling off explanations. When I asked him if he would save me he said no he would laugh. My nephew was not allowed to play with guns knives or watch even pg shows. He was not exposed to violence in the home. At 15 he is a very caring compassionate young man. He just thought it was funny for me to be eaten by a monster and delighted in telling me all the details he could think of. That said, Yes the boys should have been redirected. But to call them bullies is too extreme.
I think that it is a very good idea to speak with the LLL leader about the noise level so she can address the group. Sometimes as a mama you can be deaf to you own child's loudness and rambunctious activities. I think they were behaving pretty normal for 3 yr olds.


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## Aeress (Jan 25, 2005)

I have witnessed similair scenarious when at work (worked at a daycare). Often times it seems the parents are unsure of embarrassed about the situation and don't know what to say. Sometimes giving them words to use is helpful...ie "that loud voice is scary to a baby. talk quieter."

It is fustrating and nerve wracking to have to watch another parent "do nothing" but often times it isn't becuase they don't want to do anything but rather, they don't know how.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

oh, i disagree. i think it's perfectly normal, though probably needs addressing. if i was upset i would have said something myself if the other moms didn't step in. i remember being at a 4 year old little boy friend's house for a playgroup and the two of the kids were talking about a big machine that was going to come in the window and cut them all to pieces. this was a VERY gentle AP playgroup and very gentle parents and kids. this is just normal developmentally. that is not to make excuses for the moms and say it didn't need to be dealt with. if it is threatening to another child or mom it definitely needs to be addressed. if the moms don't do it feel free to step in yourself.

i know how that can feel when someone threatens your child. grrrrrr... just yesterday i had to rescue my 5 yr old from a hug turned tackle. another little girl had hugged her and ended up pushing her to the ground where my dd1 slightly scraped her palm and was crying. the other mom was right there, but didn't say a thing because she was talking to someone else, so you bet i did.

don't stew over these things, just step in if nobody else will. "hey, that's not nice!" or "i don't like the way that sounds and i don't think baby does either. please use gentle words and hands around baby."

hth


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## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PumpkinSeeds* 
Personally, the situation described in the OP wouldn't have shocked me very much. Do three year old's always make the best choices when trying to interact with others? No. Do I think the mother should have intervened? Yes. WOuld I have intervened? Yes. Would I have called the 3yo a bully or put the everlasting fear of G. in him? No.


Amen to that!

Three was the hardest age for me. Agression, agression, agression, whether it was "tolerated" by us or not.

And, a 3yo cannot (developmentally) be a bully.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NewCrunchyDaddy* 
Yes I will ... and that sort of behavior will _not_ be tolerated and will be stopped immediately

Oh dear, please take that statement back. Seriously. You'll be eating fresh baked crow with those words in 2 years is my prediction. I made a lot of "when my child is x age or when my child does such and such I will________" statements, and they were all WRONG wrong wrong. It all changes when it's your kid. My child can be unbelievably aggressive, it's part of the fact that he's a toddler and also that he has autism. I curb it when I can, shield other children and adults diligently, and apologize when he manages to hurt someone







. But his aggression literally cannot be controlled sometimes. Literally. All I can do is remove him from other people or the other way 'round, no amount of "discipline" will stop him, his brain just doesn't work that way.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beanma* 
oh, i disagree. i think it's perfectly normal, though probably needs addressing. if i was upset i would have said something myself if the other moms didn't step in. i remember being at a 4 year old little boy friend's house for a playgroup and the two of the kids were talking about a big machine that was going to come in the window and cut them all to pieces. this was a VERY gentle AP playgroup and very gentle parents and kids. this is just normal developmentally. that is not to make excuses for the moms and say it didn't need to be dealt with. if it is threatening to another child or mom it definitely needs to be addressed. if the moms don't do it feel free to step in yourself.

i know how that can feel when someone threatens your child. grrrrrr... just yesterday i had to rescue my 5 yr old from a hug turned tackle. another little girl had hugged her and ended up pushing her to the ground where my dd1 slightly scraped her palm and was crying. the other mom was right there, but didn't say a thing because she was talking to someone else, so you bet i did.

don't stew over these things, just step in if nobody else will. "hey, that's not nice!" or "i don't like the way that sounds and i don't think baby does either. please use gentle words and hands around baby."

hth









:


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

And, a 3yo cannot (developmentally) be a bully.
Thank you for saying that!

I think its GREAT that the problem of bullying is getting more attention these days, and that adults are more hypervigilent and proactive about nipping it in the bud. But I think that generalizing the problem to the extent of including developmentally normal behaviors in very young children creates further problems. There has to be some room for growing, learning, and making mistakes.

Also, it weakens the case against real bullying -- and as I understand it, there has to be a genuine threat involved for it to be bullying. Two 5th graders on the playground, threatening violence to a 3rd grade child when no adult is present to see -- is a very different scenerio than two three year old toddler's playing too aggressively and being verbally innapropriate toward babies in a room full of adults.


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

i'm not very comfortable with labels in general, even with 'positive' ones, i feel especially uncomfortable when the word 'bully' is applied to a 3 year old.

i agree with pps that their behaviour was normal 3-year old stuff. i would have said something that was already mentioned, i would have stated that that wasn't appropriate, then redirected or modeled something appropriate to say, depending on their interest. yet i can certainly see a parent who might just get embarassed, especially if feeling judged. we also need to remember that LLL meetings could be stressful for toddlers -- adults, children, new environment etc.

it is possible that these mothers had younger cousins or other babies that these toddlers frequently interracted with -- even though this was not an appropriate interaction, one gets more accustomed to normal toddler behaviour and to normal baby reactions -- most of the times babies are not upset.

when dd was almost 3 and her brother was 4 months, she would often tickle him, and while she tickled gently, she was also reenacting a lion







, and he loved it. then at a LLL meeting she came over to another baby and tickled him, exactly how she would tickle her brother. the baby didn't mind at all, he was amused. the mother was horriefied. accidently, that was also a mother was talked about bullying on our group list, and she was also bullied as a child. she later started a topic about bullying and it was obvious that she was referring to my dd 'assaulting' her baby.

i can understand a new mother's reaction of overprotectiveness, when every older child seems huge and dangerous, and 'should be mature enough' and behave like an adult. but labeling this as bullying is not appropriate either.

you went through horrendous experiences as a child. i'd like to offer your empathy and compassion. i'd also like to suggest to you to start working on healing yourself. very soon your adorable baby will be an adorable toddler. because of your experiences, you might perceive his normal behaviours in a negative light, especially if you unconsciously categorise every behaviour as either bullying or not. this will be terrible if you see your own child as a 'bully'.








please take care of yourself.


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## Canadianmommax3 (Mar 6, 2006)

My dd who is 2.5 and i were at goodwill yesterday looking at the books and there was a boy about 4 who was with his either babysitter or grandmother. He walked up to my daughter got right in her face and said go away loudly!!
Grandma was right there and said nothing, so i took dd and we walked away elsewhere. We came back when he was in another section but he came back and walked up to dd and pushed her. Well i got pissed real quick and told him not to push her she is just a little girl and and wasn't doing anything to him. Well he changed his tune quickly and tried to hand her a toy.
She just backed away from him.
I tell you when someone is mean to my daughter my GD towards the other child wants to take a flying leap out the window!! I wanted to say listen you little snot keep your hands to yourself. but i didn't


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sarain* 
However, nothing was done. The mother's did not seem to think this was a big deal. One mom my just said "oh my" and giggled a bit. I don't think my baby getting bullied is amusing or cute at all.
Are these mother's afraid to correct, and teach thier children about bullying, violence, as well as kindness, and feelings?? Also at this meeting these two little boy's were yelling, banging around and what not while the mom's were trying to talk! One new mom was very up-set and crying beacause she's having a lot of problems with breastfeeding, but we could hardly hear her with the boy's bashing toys together! Is this what GD is? Or are these just mom's who are affraid to correct/teach thier kids??

No, this is not what GD is.

These moms might have been too tired or overwhelmed to deal with their older children. That's not GD; that's lack of resources.

It's okay for you to intervene and tell them you don't want them saying violent things to your baby. You can even be stern about it. In most cases that should be enough to make it stop!


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

OP, do make sure you place the blame where it *belongs*:

NOT the 3 year olds.

Their Moms.

It doesn't excuse their behaviors but they are THREE.

You are going to run into these type of situations all the time (where Mothers refuse to discipline their child(ren) where appropriate).

I have no problems stepping up when another Parent won't. When DS was that age, I had to step in plenty of times. I don't *wait* for a signal, I step in and respond accordingly.


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## mesa (Aug 19, 2006)

to the OP, I would have felt the exact same way you did if faced with that situation. There's nothing more powerful than the mama bear emotions, and I feel for you. I'm sorry that some of the posters here don't think your reaction was appropriate....hindsight is always 20/20 and it's really easy to sit back and say what you "would" have done or how you would have reacted in that situation.

When it comes to my kid's feelings and self esteem vs. "some other kid" who may or may not have been serious in what he has said to my child, I will ALWAYS defend my child. In the moment, you often don't have time to sit back and analyze, well, Johnny *may* be feeling this way, and that's why he said what he did....or Susie is just picking that up from her next door neighbor's kids. No....the simple truth is, what they said was WRONG, their mothers should have done something about it (if only to placate the mom of the kid wronged) or I would have left. Simple as that.

People parent their kids differently, and GD (to me) doesn't mean letting your child run roughshod over smaller weaker children (whether your kid is 3 or 13...at what age does it become inappropriate? When are they supposed to learn?) or, conversely, allowing your child to be pushed around or spoken rudely to by larger, stronger, older children.

I'm sorry that happened to you. I can't even count the numbers of times I have had similar things happen to my boys on the playground, and the sick, angry feeling it brings up in the pit of your stomach is very real, and very unpleasant. Nobody wants to see their children hurt, and I agree with NewCrunchyDaddy that I would (and HAVE) put the fear of God into them. And I refuse to apologize for it.

If a child is being deliberately mean to mine (or mine is to another child) not just saying goofy things...I have boys, they say some pretty off the wall stuff sometimes, but I gauge my reaction based on the other child's reaction, I will react swiftly, strongly, and in no uncertain terms let it be known that said behavior will NOT be tolerated. I have been known to say, (in a loud enough voice for child's mom to hear) That is NOT nice! While picking up my son and saying to him, I'm sorry honey, some kids just don't understand very well how to play like a friend.

If mom is on her cell phone, eating, or talking with friends (and ignoring her kid...happens a lot) I have been known to walk over to her and open my sharp mouth about supervising her kid. I've done it to neglectful dog owners in the dog park, too, when their dogs were bullying mine.

I'm angry for you, and I wasn't even there. Hugs to you


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Mesa, I'm assuming that the OP wants to remain a part of this LLL group, and share a minimally respectful and friendly relationship with the other mothers. Your approach will not accomplish that.


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## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

I personally don't take the approach of "showing them who is boss" and "putting the fear of G. into them" and "using my sharp mouth" to make a point especially where children are concerned.


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## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

But I understand that the OP has had some bullying in her past. And I think that perhaps it's something she needs to address at some point because I don't think it's healthy to adopt an attitude of "us versus the big bad world" especially when we are talking about relatively normal toddler behaviour.


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## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Mesa, the OP asked us what we thought. We told her, quite respectfully and sympathetically. This is a gentle discipline forum, putting the "fear of god" into a toddler won't be all that well received.


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## mesa (Aug 19, 2006)

My story was to illustrate my reaction to mothers in the park, who blatantly ignore their children who throw sand, shove babies face first into the sand, steal toys, pull hair, call names, threaten violence, etc etc. I feel that "using my sharp tongue" on the MOTHERS is perfectly appropriate.

Now, I understand that the OP wants to remain a part of this group. That's fine, of course she should temper her reaction to avoid offending these mothers. Personally, I wouldn't bite my tongue and suffer in silence to avoid offending those around me, never have....and that's probably why I don't join "playgroups" or "Mommy and Me" classes. That's just me, though. I'm sorry if it seemed like I was encouraging the OP to b*tch out these moms.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Definately start a new thread, Mesa. I will definately respond. Could be a really interesting conversation! You may want to consider putting in the "school" forum.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

FTR, y'all, it wasn't the OP who made the "fear of God" statement.

Just had to interject that......


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## Cheshire (Dec 14, 2004)

Take a deep breath. I understand your protective feelings, we all do.

Whenever I'm in a situation where my son has been the object of another child's aggression I do one of three things:

1. If it is a new situation, I don't know the child, etc. and if a parent hasn't stepped right in I step in and treat the child as I would my own. I'll tell them to stop whatever they are doing, explain that it is not polite/friendly/etc. (insert right word for the situation) and offer an alternative play idea that involves everyone.

2. If it is a new situation and I realize my child is not able to play with the other kids because of an age difference (too old, too young) and a parent doesn't step right in and talk to their aggressive child I'll talk to the child like I would my own and then I'd find another area for my son to play so he isn't being the aggressive one (toddlers have a tendency to be aggressive toward smaller kids IME) or so he isn't a target for older kids.

3. If it is a situation where I know the child and I know that the child is aggressive towards my son I limit their exposure and play along with them. I have a dear friend whose son constantly seeks out my son to pick on. He is the kind of child you can see it in his face and he is very aggressive (my cracker jack psychology degree







leads me to believe this is because he is raised in a super strict home with lots of "spankings"). He can be sweet but most of the time he seeks out smaller kids to test out his "power" on. I hate that my friend and her husband have chosen to raise their kids this way so we limit our time with them and hope that when the kids are older it will be better.

Honestly, I try my hardest to give other kids the benefit of the doubt and try and treat them as I would want someone else to treat my son.

I hear your frustration in your post and wonder if a lot of it isn't coming from the 3 year olds or the other moms but instead is some of it coming from the fact that you didn't know how to react? There have been plenty of times I've come home fuming and the reason isn't because of what happened but I'm mad because I didn't react the way I would have wanted to. Or, I couldn't come up with a response quick enough even though on the way home I came up with 20 great ones.

Now that you've been in the situation (and something similar will happen again and again so long as you hang around other kids) you can come up with a few blanket responses to keep in mind. When your hackels (sp?) are raised it can be hard to think straight so if you have something to start your response with that is gentle yet firm it will get you going on the right track.

Those other mommas probably just needed guidance. And also I've found that if you set the tone for the type of play that will be tolerated others will follow.

Hugs to you and your little one!!!


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## mesa (Aug 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cheshire* 
I hear your frustration in your post and wonder if a lot of it isn't coming from the 3 year olds or the other moms but instead is some of it coming from the fact that you didn't know how to react? There have been plenty of times I've come home fuming and the reason isn't because of what happened but I'm mad because I didn't react the way I would have wanted to. Or, I couldn't come up with a response quick enough even though on the way home I came up with 20 great ones.

Now that you've been in the situation (and something similar will happen again and again so long as you hang around other kids) you can come up with a few blanket responses to keep in mind. When your hackels (sp?) are raised it can be hard to think straight so if you have something to start your response with that is gentle yet firm it will get you going on the right track.


NIIICE, Cheshire. Much more eloquent than I said it







. For me, a lot of the anger later (if I didn't say anything) comes from guilt at not sticking up for my child. And when the hackles come up, and adrenaline is flowing, and tears are threatening, it's really really hard to not have a knee jerk reaction. Maybe I should come up with some responses, too. Thank you.


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## Cheshire (Dec 14, 2004)

Thanks. I don't think all that fast on my feet but give me a little time and I'm usually pretty good at coming up with responses.

So, knowing my "weakness" I play a lot of "what if" scenarios in my mind. I can't ever think of them all and am caught off guard quite a bit but sometimes I luck out and something I've actually thought of happens and I get to use a pre-thought-out response.

Welcome to another stage of motherhood. Dealing with other kids is no easy task especially when you feel yours has been threatened.

Oh, also, remember that the behavior you use towards other agressive children will be a great model for how your child will react as he gets older. If you remain calm and in control he will learn to be the same. If you let your emotions overcome you then he will have a harder time learning how to respond to aggression (and he does pick up on your vibes so try and keep those calm, too).

If you don't handle a situation well (when he's old enough to talk about it) be sure and talk to him about it. Let him know you'd like to have handled it better and ask if he has any suggestions on how you could have handled it better.


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

3 yr olds are so over the top, larger than life sometimes, I was genuinely frightened of some of them when Emma was little. Now she's the 3 yr old, and while she's not particularly aggressive she is very bossy, hyper and loud. Her behavior likely seems horrifying to mothers (and fathers) of small infants and younger toddlers. 3 yr olds seem so big, so capable, so articulate, so much older compared to the little ones, but I think what the OP and another poster or two are missing in this thread is how little 3 yr olds really are, and you will see this for yourselves when your own little ones are 3. It's a challenging time for many parents, but thankfully 3 yr olds are also very funny, affectionate, inventive, imaginitive and brilliant little people too, so they're not quite as fightening as I once thought. Loud, aggressive play is developmentally on track for those boys, though I think their mothers should have stepped in, at least to apologize on their son's behalf to you and your son, OP. But I don't think being harsh to make them stop would teach them anything, nor do I think such approaches to disciplie is really GD anyways, is it?


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## crb (Aug 22, 2005)

Just trying to get some more positive intent in there for mama and kiddos:

I agree that some correction could be entered into by the parent- but that sometimes w/3 yo it is sometimes ignoring an inappropriate comment is the best way of keeping them from getting the child caught up in the play - if they had kept making comments, etc., the parents should definitely step in, but a single comment to a baby, then moving on - maybe the mom felt it best not to direct attention to that behavior since some kids, when you tell them what NOT to do, they do it again and again. She probably could have said something to you about so you would feel better about it?

I remember once visiting my nephew and he greeted me at the door w/ "I'm a crocodile and I'm going to bite you and chew your head up!" While I stood there in surprise (being w/o kids at the time) his father just said, "Oh my, that's dramatic" and directed us all to a new activity. At the time I thought "shouldn't he have addressed the violence?", but later I realized that by not really acknowledging it or playing along and moving along quickly, he was sending a message to his son. Maybe they discussed it later - I don't know.


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## Sarain (Oct 14, 2005)

These three year old's might not be bullies YET, but if thire behaviour is not redirected NOW, they will be bullies in a few years. I think three is definetly old enough to learn about RESPECT, feelings and kindness ( good social skills for life.) In my culture (Native indian) Respect for everyone and every natural thing is taught early. of course I know that the boy's were not actually going to chop my son up, but the harsh tone of voice, and the fact that two older kids gathered around my baby..was not cool at all. As parent's it's our job to teach our children about appropriate behaviour, thire effect on others, and responsibility. If we do nothing, let our children run all over the place screaming and banging around while people are talking..We are not giving our children boundries, and without healthy boundries children not only express bratty, irritating behaviour ( see how I'm not actually calling the kids bratty?) But without boundries children are insecure, and that's not fair the them.

If Gabriel was one of those three year olds this is how I would handle it.

I would have said to him right away " Gabriel that is a very violent and unacceptible thing to say to another person, if you can't be kind then maybe you need to take a break from playing for now."

If Gabriel was the one running around making noise while a mother was crying and trying to talk I would have:

A. Taken him to another room for a few minutes

B. Tell him he needs to find a quiet activity to do.

I don't like the lazy and irrisponsible additude some parent's and teachers have..such as "boys will be boys" "Kids will be kids" or " They'll work it out for them selves."

While I was in the Waldorf school I was told daily by the other kids that I was a " dirty Indian", that I was " stupid, fat, and ugly." I was also punched, slapped, and kicked in the crotch by boys...Eventually my parents pulled me out the of the school, because the teachers and other parents thought we would "work it out for our selves!" Thanks a lot!

So for the people here that think I'm overreacting..Yeah I will do everything possible to make sure my son never has to go through the same feelings of fear, self- hate as I did. At the same time I will also make sure he learns to treat others with respect and kindness. He is my child, I love him and I WILL do my best to protect him from physical and emotional harm, including verbal threats by three year olds! Of course I know that he will have some painful expiriences in life, and he will be treated badly from time to time by different people.. But, I still want to prevent as many of them as possible, espically during the childhood years. If something like this happens again I will make clear in a RESPECTFUL way that it's not ok to talk to my son like that, to both the parent and child. This is my right as a mother.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sarain* 
These three year old's might not be bullies YET, but if thire behaviour is not redirected NOW, they will be bullies in a few years.

Please read this in the gentle tone I'm saying: This is just not true.

You do not have to sit helplessly and stew. You can just say, quietly and gently, "Please use gentle tones with my baby."

Three year olds act like this. Often while pretending to me meat eating dinosaurs or something.

I'm sorry you had a bad time at the meeting. Three year olds who play loudly are not destined to become bulllies if their parents don't make them leave.

I really hope that you feel better soon.


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## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Soundhunter* 
3 yr olds seem so big, so capable, so articulate, so much older compared to the little ones, but I think what the OP and another poster or two are missing in this thread is how little 3 yr olds really are...

Yes, very true. Just be/c many are physically larger and able to speak in complete sentences does not mean that most 3yo are able to fully comprehend the consequences of their actions. That's what parents are for.

And thanks chfriend. You beat me to it.


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## bratmobile (Jun 30, 2004)

I watch my 3 YO closely around babies and little ones because I remember how hurt I was when his toys would be taken or spoken to rudely. I think it hurt me much more than him most of the time (when he was very young) but I agree that parents of older kids need to watch them. However, if they do not, its perfectly acceptable and even necessary for the parent of the child being disrespected to protect their child's space and/or feelings.

At the park the other day there were some bigger boys piling sand onto a merry-go-round. Their project was to make it slippery and to "hurt the babies." They were absolutely giddy with their ideas and delighted to no end with the idea of "hurting all the babies." Their mother just said "Oh my!" and didn't do anything. I feigned shock and horror and played along and the kids were also delighted with my reaction. I asked which babies they wanted to hurt, if they wanted to hurt my baby (asleep on my chest). And they said no. I asked about other babies in the park and they didn't want to hurt those babies either. They also didn't want to hurt "pretend babies." They were playing a game of pure fantasy. I don't think that these kids will grow into real life baby-hurters. And I don't think their game needed to be changed because it had violence involved.

This was different than the OP's situation because they were engaging only their ideas and not a real person. But 3 year olds often live in fantasy; certainly they need guidance to distinguish reality from fantasy and how to play with other kids respectfully, but wild or violent fantasy is not uncommon, nor does it indicate true violent or bullying tendencies.

I returned home from the park ticked off many a time when my first son was an infant/younger toddler. It took a while before I realized that I was going to have to interevene when other parents were absent. I didn't feel comfortable at first, but for the sake of all the kids situations like that should be addressed so the older kids learn and so you and your child don't leave feeling like doormats.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Hi, everyone! Please take a moment to look over the Forum Guidelines, specifically the following section:

Quote:

Welcome to Gentle Discipline. This forum has a specific aim: _to help parents learn and apply gentle discipline methods in raising their children_.

*Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.*
Please PM me if you have concerns or questions about the forum's intent or guidelines, thanks


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## MelMel (Nov 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hhurd* 

And, a 3yo cannot (developmentally) be a bully.

what are you basing this on? opinion? anecdotal evidence? child development experts? which ones? do you have a reference or a link? I am not saying I do or do not agree, but these grand statements are made so often here, and they sound nice but are unfounded. At what 'age' are people allowed to be considered bullies?

I have noticed the same thing as the OP. When my dd was just under 2, I walked back into the room at an LLL meeting and my dd was being cornered by 2 other children whispering to her to 'get out of here stupid' very maliciously. She was terrified. This was not the first time I had witnessed stuff like this at the meetings. Once some children were allowed to destroy the hostess's heirloom dollhouse which was up high on a table. The children pulled up chairs and trashed it. Took out fixtures and stairs, etc. It was incredibly sad. I have dozens of stories like this....from 3-4 different groups and going to meetings over a period of about 2-3 years. I have since learned my lesson, and avoid meetings where moms talk and children play, since things got out of hand too quickly and moms for the large part don't really seem to care.

I also have a dd who when she hit 3 (is 4 now) turned into an exciteable, potentially obnoxious, sometimes dark-humored child, who has probably threatened to cut off alot of arms and heads....joking, laughing at the time, of course, but alot of people look at me and wonder where she gets this kinda talk from, I know. I absolutley would explain to her why it is so hurtful if she ever said or did inappropriate or mean things to a younger or more sensitive person who may not understand her attitude/humor.

You can have a child who is different, more aggressive, socially challenged or advanced, but to drop them in a room with others and then abandon them to have tea is not acceptable to me. This seems to be the norm at most of these meetings. I stopped going. This is not the type of socialization I am looking for for my kids.

Seems that alot of moms can write off inappropriate social interactions as 'kids being kids' but then again, alot of the moms who post here probably go to these meetings regularly, too.





















:


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

It's *interesting* to hear from those who don't have 3 year olds yet.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MelMel* 
I have since learned my lesson, and avoid meetings where moms talk and children play, since things got out of hand too quickly and moms for the large part don't really seem to care.

You can have a child who is different, more aggressive, socially challenged or advanced, but to drop them in a room with others and then abandon them to have tea is not acceptable to me. This seems to be the norm at most of these meetings. I stopped going. This is not the type of socialization I am looking for for my kids.
:

I have had this experience too









I also found alternative types of socialization for my kids.


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## peilover010202 (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PumpkinSeeds* 
I don't doubt that you or your dh are fabulous parents.

Personally, the situation described in the OP wouldn't have shocked me very much. I would have thought maybe one or the other 3yo had an older sibling or friend with which they "play fight". Do three year old's always make the best choices when trying to interact with others? No. Do I think the mother should have intervened? Yes. WOuld I have intervened? Yes. Would I have called the 3yo a bully or put the everlasting fear of G. in him? No.

My ds1 is 3yo and he says things like this and yes, sometimes it is directed at a younger child. And, he is trying to "play fight". He just doesn't understand these younger children are much too small to play in this fashion. I definitely redirect him, "oh honey, he's just a little one, we need to play gently with him. You can pretend fight at home with daddy." He's not being malicious at all. He doesn't mean any harm to the child. But, for his age, role-playing (like a superhero - Power Rangers right now) is very common and it should be encouraged in the right setting IMHO.

To the op, I, personally would have said gently to the child "oh he's just a baby, maybe you could play like that with some of the older boys here? that might be fun."

And, as far as the active, loud play. Seems pretty typical of boys and the ages. I'm sure they could have been quieted down temporarily, but it wouldn't have lasted long.


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## guestmama9911 (May 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PumpkinSeeds* 
I personally don't take the approach of "showing them who is boss" and "putting the fear of G. into them" and "using my sharp mouth" to make a point especially where children are concerned.

When he said this, he added a smile. He doesn't yell or use aggression towards children. That wouldn't teach them anything. But telling an infant that you want to chop them up is a behavior that will get worse over time if it isn't addressed. This is disturbing, even in a three year old, and passive parenting isn't the answer. Neither of us has implied that our child is going to be perfect and never be bad. But we aren't going to just sit back and say "oh, he's young, he doesn't mean anything by it." That completely misses an opportunity to teach a child to b peaceful with others.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Gosh, if wild three year old behavior is an indication of what is to come.... then my lovely older children are miracles that defy nature.

Sarain -- what awful experiences you endured as a child! There is no excuse for what you went through, and no justification for the adults that stood by without standing up for you.

However -- I'm worried about the anxiety you are setting yourself up for with your baby. Developmentally normal stages DO pass, and its important to keep that perspective while mothering, or we would all be driving ourselves crazy.

I really think it would have been appropriate for YOU to speak up for your baby, in a kind and constructive way. The other mothers probably expected that you would, if you felt bothered!


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

So many good points made already.

One more to add on bullying~bullying is the use of threats and violence in order to control another person and their behavior.

I think what the OP described was basic aggressive language. 3 year olds experiment with aggressive talk. Many 3 year olds go through a phase of wanting to say something that is "the scariest" or "The baddest" thing they can possibly imagine. This is normal. Parents still have a job to do, and I am sorry these parents did not step in and offer gentle guidance to their children. I think it would have been okay for you to say 'Those are scary words. You might scare the baby. Please use gentle words when you talk to him".

Also, I would initiate a conversation with those mothers. Focus on your own feelings, not on what you think they did wrong. Something like "It upset me and my son when the bigger kids said they would cut off his arms. What could we do to encourage gentler words with the baby? I could really use your help. "They might offer to say something to their kids. Then if it happens again, you can make eye contact with the moms, and hopefully that will prompt them to step in and help.


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## KBinSATX (Jan 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
It's *interesting* to hear from those who don't have 3 year olds yet.

What are you trying to say with this?


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## dawncayden (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBinSATX* 
What are you trying to say with this?

I think she means, we will change our tune when it's our child that is 3 years old.

I experienced two 3 year olds today in Science World that were very aggresive physically towards ds. One was hitting him to get out of the way and the other pushed him away with her body til he fell over.
I'm a very easy going type of parent, but I don't let things like that go unnoticed. I said 'no hitting please' and I said 'Hey! Excuse me? Can you not push him' to the other kid. In both cases...their parents were not present or did not care.

Dawn


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I think it would have been okay for you to say 'Those are scary words. You might scare the baby. Please use gentle words when you talk to him".

I think this is way more appropriate than "That's not nice!" as many have suggested. Not only is "That's not nice!" a pretty judgement-laden statement, it's not very specific.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

I would talk with the LLL leader privately and express your concerns. Some LLL leaders are great and will have creative and tactful ways of handling matters. Maybe there need to be interesting quieter toys available for the older children... I don't know.


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## mashtree (Feb 15, 2005)

I could have written the OP's post when my son was 10 months old.

I could say very similar things to what *mamaduck* says now when my son is 4.5 years old.

I am slowly learning to "never say never" about when my son gets older and *try* not to view "the really big 8-year-olds" as formidable and scary.

In the situation described, I would have intervened if I was the mother of one of the 3-year-olds with a comment like "I think that what you are doing scares the baby, please be gentle and a bit more quiet with him" or similar. I don't think I would have said anything if I was the OP, but I would have likely picked up my baby and gently comforted him if I saw/felt he was upset about the whole thing.

I don't think there was any bullying involved whatsoever and King Solomon story that *mamaduck* brought up seems like a very real possibility here.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

This seems to be the norm at most of these meetings.
If at all possible, speak with the leader directly (call her or email her if that's more comfortable). She's "in charge" of making sure mothers and babies feel safe, welcome and are getting their needs met at the mtgs. This may have been an isolated incident, but prob. not. IME at LLL meetings, it's important that the new mothers' needs are met first, and the mothers of the older nurslings are, in many instances, are coming for the social aspect. I've seen children run totally wild, destroying property even







. At this point, if the mothers of the disruptive children aren't going to step in and redirect, and the mother of a baby who is in danger of being stepped on, run over, pushed down, etc isn't saying something---it's the leader's responsibility to do so...but, as someone else had mentioned, leaders are often in very in depth discussions, and can't be all places at once. If you continue to attend, and not much is changing after talking with the leader or if you feel comfortable, speaking with the mothers and children themselves, I would find another meeting, if possible. You deserve to feel safe in a LLL mtg









I have left more than a few LLL meetings when my babies were young, b/c the older children were too rough and despite my requests, they didn't stop, nor did their mothers stop them, and then again, I've left when MY older children were being too rough and it was obvious we simply needed to go outside and run around rather than sit in a room full of non and newly-walking babies.

I would totally intervene and step in and say something to the toddlers like, "those are scary words, please be gentle with the baby." If they continued, I would have no problem going to their mothers...BUT, I've also been doing this a long time, and know this type of behavior is par for the course. And I don't mean that in a boys will be boys sense. It's more like children are testing their boundaries and limits...and many *DO* use words that feel scary or violent. I would totally have been shocked and appalled when my first was 10 months old if someone had threatened to chop or cut him







:


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I've been thinking about this thread a lot -- because honestly, I'm not sure I would intervened if my son had done that at age 3. I mean, I'm a fairly sensitive person, and I guess if I had picked up "vibes" that you were uncomfortable, then I would have stepped in. But at this point, I'm so used to the way that kids play act -- that it might not have phased me very much.

When I had an infant and a 3 year old of my own, we had frequent playdates at our house with other kids his age, and so there was a lot of this type of play going on around our home. (For some reason, my older son was obsessed with the idea of putting people in pretend jail, including babies. Or pretend chopping off their heads.) My kids watched very little television (PBS, occasionally) and were not exposed to violence, so I just supposed that these concepts must have come from story books and bits of information that he picked up from who-knows-where, and needed to play out in order to come to grips with.

Anyway -- my general reaction was to become dramatic and play-act with them. For example, I'd clutch the baby close and screech, _"Oh no! Not my beautiful baby! Don't worry, baby! I will protect you! Help! Help! Someone rescue us!!! Come on baby, we need to hide from the evil villians! I'll never let them hurt you!"_

The 3 yo's would of course, die laughing on the spot. And I think it helped to clarify in their minds that this was all pretend, and silly. And it helped the baby to be easy going and joyful about his big brother's antics.

In a less playful mood, I would have just said, _"No thank you. I like my babies to be in one peice!"_

I guess my point is just that there is more than one way to look at this sort of play when you spend time around kids this age. And more than one way to handle it -- without needing to worry that they are going to grow into psychopaths. My big boy is now 10 yo, and very trustworthy and sensitive with smaller children.

My "baby" is now 6 years old, and finds it very easy to join into social groups, play with a variety of kids, and tolerates a lot of silliness with a sense of playfullness and joy that I envy.


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## MobiusWentKnowhere (Dec 11, 2006)

This is an interesting situation that I think all new parents find themselves in at some point. It is horrifying to see your bundle of love and affection say something as horrific as was said in this instance or worse as my 3yo son has said to me. We don't advocate violence in our home, not even as a turn of phrase. Yet he has threatened to kill me. What I think should be addressed is the greater role of violence and rude behavior in our society in general.

I was bullied as a child as well. My parents advocated non-violence in all situations and I took it to heart. While I took my lumps I was able to hold on to that core influence. There was a price to be paid in self-confidence and personal pride, however. But adulthood has seen me past those times and left me safe enough to recover that confidence and pride. The world is still full of violence and bullies but I am my own person with my own strengths and convictions which gives me tools to deal with that world. I thank my parents in this.

I don't think that we will rid the world of violence by sheltering our children from it. There will always be jockeying for dominance in groups and violence will always be used by somebody. Correcting the children in that group would have provided an immediate remedy. The parents would have been using their power over their children to modify their behavior. This is a type of bullying in some sense. So there is the archtype that we inevitably expose to our children. We use our parent's power to effect behavior.

What is more important is to teach our children the other side of the equation. We must teach them which are reasonable requests and which are not. It is when they are not that the reaction is most important. It is hard not to be outraged by unsociable behavior, but even harder to effect it on any grand scale. Consider focusing on instilling in your child the ability to cope and diffuse such behavior.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
I've been thinking about this thread a lot -- because honestly, I'm not sure I would intervened if my son had done that at age 3. I mean, I'm a fairly sensitive person, and I guess if I had picked up "vibes" that you were uncomfortable, then I would have stepped in. But at this point, I'm so used to the way that kids play act -- that it might not have phased me very much.

I've been thinking about this, too. I was thinking that if my dd called your baby "stupid", which she's REALLY into doing lately, I might have totally ignored it. I'm sure a lot of people would have been offended by that, but after three months of addressing it every time she said it only to see it worsen soooo much, I've decided to try "extinction", if you will, and ignore it when she calls things or people stupid. Maybe that's what those mothers were doing?


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I'm posting this before reading the thread.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sarain* 
Is this what GD is? Or are these just mom's who are affraid to correct/teach thier kids??

Gd is NOT about being "gentle" to your dc and being inconsiderate of how your dc's actions are affecting others.
If that were my ds (which would surprise me, but anything is possible I guess), I would probably have responded in such a way that it might look like I wasn't doing much. Maybe "Whoa! Don't say stuff like that to people. That's hurtful. That baby doesn't look happy that you said that." Something like that. Then some redirection. But imo that would get the message across.

IMO, you also had a right to say something to the boys about how their actions affected your baby, if mom didn't say something and it continued. "Hey, stop that! It's scaring Baby!"

(I'd also try to find a quieter way for ds to play, *IF* I was aware that the noise was disturbing people. Sometimes moms get so used to their own child's noise, that it doesn't bother them anymore, and they forget that it might bother others.)


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Wow! I'm writing this as I read the thread:
An extreme reaction, imo, would be ineffective at teaching the 3yo anything useful. It would put too much focus on the reaction itself, and take focus OFF of what matters- the hurtful behavior and it's effects on the Baby.
Making a child AFRAID to behave in a certain way is certainly NOT gentle, and is actually not in my definition of discipline either.
Actually, it seems to me to be a very real likelihood that an extreme reaction (like putting the fear of god in them







: ) could actually be counter-productive.

I also agree that a 3yo can't be a bully. Being a bully seems to need a certain intellectual understanding that it seems a 3yo wouldn't have. (I say "seems" because I've never dealt directly with either).
And I totally believe in self fulfilling prophesies and with TCC idea that kids do what is *expected* of them. So if a 3yo is *expected* to be a bully (by being labeled one, for example), then a bully he will become.

As far as dealing with unacceptable behavior, do so because it matters in the moment, not because you want to prevent these children from becoming bullies. I think mom's have a right to stand up for their children, so certainly don't think I'm advocating staying quiet and dealing with it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crb* 
I remember once visiting my nephew and he greeted me at the door w/ "I'm a crocodile and I'm going to bite you and chew your head up!" While I stood there in surprise (being w/o kids at the time) his father just said, "Oh my, that's dramatic" and directed us all to a new activity. At the time I thought "shouldn't he have addressed the violence?", but later I realized that by not really acknowledging it or playing along and moving along quickly, he was sending a message to his son. Maybe they discussed it later - I don't know.

Yeah, I can see myself doing that (and have, but not in response to anything violent, which we haven't really had to deal with yet). It really seems that a small response of surprise would be most beneficial when dealing with a child who is generally not violent at all.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
I've been thinking about this thread a lot -- because honestly, I'm not sure I would intervened if my son had done that at age 3. I mean, I'm a fairly sensitive person, and I guess if I had picked up "vibes" that you were uncomfortable, then I would have stepped in. But at this point, I'm so used to the way that kids play act -- that it might not have phased me very much.

I agree. For several (possible) reasons:

1)Mothers saw the OP being right there for her baby and might have thought that it was more than enough "protection" from their active toddlers
2)Loud play and experimenting with violent language may be so low on their radar (which may have been toughened up and reactions are "saved" for "really dangerous" situations when safety is involved, and there are many of those situations when a 3yo is involved)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
When I had an infant and a 3 year old of my own, we had frequent playdates at our house with other kids his age, and so there was a lot of this type of play going on around our home. (For some reason, my older son was obsessed with the idea of putting people in pretend jail, including babies. Or pretend chopping off their heads.) My kids watched very little television (PBS, occasionally) and were not exposed to violence, so I just supposed that these concepts must have come from story books and bits of information that he picked up from who-knows-where, and needed to play out in order to come to grips with.

Anyway -- my general reaction was to become dramatic and play-act with them. For example, I'd clutch the baby close and screech, _"Oh no! Not my beautiful baby! Don't worry, baby! I will protect you! Help! Help! Someone rescue us!!! Come on baby, we need to hide from the evil villians! I'll never let them hurt you!"_

The 3 yo's would of course, die laughing on the spot. And I think it helped to clarify in their minds that this was all pretend, and silly. And it helped the baby to be easy going and joyful about his big brother's antics.

In a less playful mood, I would have just said, _"No thank you. I like my babies to be in one peice!"_

I guess my point is just that there is more than one way to look at this sort of play when you spend time around kids this age. And more than one way to handle it -- without needing to worry that they are going to grow into psychopaths. My big boy is now 10 yo, and very trustworthy and sensitive with smaller children.

My "baby" is now 6 years old, and finds it very easy to join into social groups, play with a variety of kids, and tolerates a lot of silliness with a sense of playfullness and joy that I envy.

I love the suggestions. Humor almost always works, especially with 3yo's

So, I would definitely not label the 3yo behavior as "bullying". I probably would give those mothers a break (always assume the best). If I was uncomfortable with a situation I would have taken it upon myself to say something (like mamaduck suggested) to the kids.

And despite all of the above - I know how you felt OP







Mama bear instinct is always strong, but I believe especially when our kids are babies


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MobiusWentKnowhere* 
I don't think that we will rid the world of violence by sheltering our children from it. There will always be jockeying for dominance in groups and violence will always be used by somebody. Correcting the children in that group would have provided an immediate remedy. The parents would have been using their power over their children to modify their behavior. This is a type of bullying in some sense. So there is the archtype that we inevitably expose to our children. We use our parent's power to effect behavior.

What is more important is to teach our children the other side of the equation. We must teach them which are reasonable requests and which are not. It is when they are not that the reaction is most important. It is hard not to be outraged by unsociable behavior, but even harder to effect it on any grand scale. Consider focusing on instilling in your child the ability to cope and diffuse such behavior.

WOW! This is *very* insightful. Welcome to MDC. I hope we hear more from you and I hope you like it here and stick around!


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## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

Something that I was thinking along these lines is that although I strive my best to guide my children to behave in socially acceptable ways, I simply cannot monitor every single interaction they have.

That's why I think the OP was within her right to say something to the children (something that she would be comfortable saying to her own child and in a way that she would expect other Mamas to treat her child in a similar situation)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam* 
2)Loud play and experimenting with violent language may be so low on their radar (which may have been toughened up and reactions are "saved" for "really dangerous" situations when safety is involved, and there are many of those situations when a 3yo is involved)


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

I'm sorry this happened! It was inappropriate, and the boys' mothers should have intervened. While it's true that preschoolers do say these sorts of things sometimes and aren't really bullying as such, that doesn't mean they should have free reign to threaten little babies whose mamas are upset by it, and adults should help them shift their "scary" play to an appropriate venue. If their own parents don't do it, you can.

Mamaduck wrote:

Quote:

I'd clutch the baby close and screech, "Oh no! Not my beautiful baby! Don't worry, baby! I will protect you! Help! Help! Someone rescue us!!! Come on baby, we need to hide from the evil villians! I'll never let them hurt you!"
I like this idea. I also think that a firm statement along the lines of, "Speak gently to my baby." is perfectly appropriate.

Regarding the noise level: Just because it is normal for children to make noise while playing doesn't mean there should be no effort to turn down their volume when it's disrupting something else. IMO, the moms of the noisy kids should have asked them to be quieter and taken them outside if they weren't willing to be quieter.

There's a difference between "normal" and "acceptable in every situation".


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## Sarain (Oct 14, 2005)

Wow, you know I really didn't know that my post would be such a big thing! I wrote that post/VENT late at night when I was feeling emotional about a number of different things. I do still feel somewhat upset about that incendent with the little boys, but not as much as before.

I've been thinking a lot about bullying for the last few days. Some people think it's impossible for 3 year olds to be bullies, and other's like me, think it IS possible for three year olds to be bullies ( or to express bully like behaviour.) I'm guessing that no one here is an expert on child psychology? So no one REALLY know's? We're all ( including me) just sharing our personal ideas on child development?

Here's my idea on why it is possible for very young children to express bully like behavoiur... We are all born with basic and very powerful animal intincts. Feeling powerful/ having power over others is possibly an early man survival instinct to have all the women and meat?? I'm gussing that a two-three year old is developmentally able to start expressing dominance over others?

There is also development of the EGO as well around this time right?

What about the group mentality part of bullying? where one person starts saying or doing something then another..and another, more and more people start doing it even if it's something rediculus or violent, and this is also part of our animal instinct. I didn't feel so upset when the first boy said what he did, but when the second boy joined in the "fun" then I felt my baby was being bullied/ganged-up on.
When I was being bullied at school ( and by the way this started at 5 years old) it was NEVER just me and the "bully" child alone, it was always kids in a group, or one child bullying me while there was an audience of other children to share in the fun/power. I don't at all think those little boys are horrible or dysfunctional, but I do feel that parents need to start to teaching their children how to express their energy, and the human need for power in other ways, that do not hurt others. There are other basic human instinct's that we teach our children to express, or deal with in a socially appropriate manner as well..RIGHT! This is our responsiblity as parents.

My dad is a Psycologist, and I think I'll talk to him about the subject of "bullying." I'd really like to know more about this!


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## Sarain (Oct 14, 2005)

Wow, you know I really didn't know that my post would be such a big thing! I wrote that post/VENT late at night when I was feeling emotional about a number of different things. I do still feel somewhat upset about that incendent with the little boys, but not as much as before.

I've been thinking a lot about bullying for the last few days. Some people think it's impossible for 3 year olds to be bullies, and other's like me, think it IS possible for three year olds to be bullies ( or to express bully like behaviour.) I'm guessing that no one here is an expert on child psychology? So no one REALLY know's? We're all ( including me) just sharing our personal ideas on child development?

Here's my idea on why it is possible for very young children to express bully like behavoiur... We are all born with basic and very powerful animal intincts. Feeling powerful/ having power over others is possibly an early man survival instinct to have all the women and meat?? I'm gussing that a two-three year old is developmentally able to start expressing dominance over others?

There is also development of the EGO as well around this time right?

What about the group mentality part of bullying? where one person starts saying or doing something then another..and another, more and more people start doing it even if it's something rediculus or violent, and this is also part of our animal instinct. I didn't feel so upset when the first boy said what he did, but when the second boy joined in the "fun" then I felt my baby was being bullied/ganged-up on.
When I was being bullied at school ( and by the way this started at 5 years old) it was NEVER just me and the "bully" child alone, it was always kids in a group, or one child bullying me while there was an audience of other children to share in the fun/power. I don't at all think those little boys are horrible or dysfunctional, but I do feel that parents need to start to teaching in a kind way..(beacaus it's ALL about kindness isn't it!) their children how to express their energy, and the human need for power in other ways, that do not hurt others. There are other basic human instinct's that we teach our children to express, or deal with in a socially appropriate manner as well..RIGHT! This is our responsiblity as parents.

My dad is a Psycologist, and I think I'll talk to him about the subject of "bullying." I'd really like to know more about this!


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Sarain, I'm really glad you are going to educate yourself about bullying. It might be very healing given your horrible experiences as a child. I was bullied and found it very helpful.

We had a situation in our neighborhood with a young girl, and reading up on it helped me form a plan to support my dd while contributing as much as possible to a positive atmosphere.

The book that helped me the most was the Coloroso book I mentioned earlier.

I do think "reading ahead" on development can help too. It's amazing how fast they change!

I've also learned a lot on this forum by listening to the moms whose kids are a little older than mine. It helps prepare me for the next challenge mine will be going through.

I'm glad you're feeling a little better.


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## slightly crunchy (Jul 7, 2003)

I am with others in that this type of experimenting with aggressive talk seems really common in many of the 3 and 4 year old children we have been acquainted with. I think calling it "bullyig" is assuming negative intent on the part of these children and is going way too far.

I do remember what it was like to have one infant and have older, rough kids running around.

As to that situation the OP described, I think I would have said something if it was my 3 year old, but it might not have been right then so you would hear it and be placated. I would have saved that for a conversation on the way home from the meeting, so that I could a little more time explaining why we don't talk about hurting people in that instance (I think games of aggressive play among young children who are all exploring these themes and enjoying the game, are different). At the time, I probably would want to quietly take the child aside and direct them to another activity, to cause the least amount of disruption to the meeting as possible.


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## Mountaingirl3 (May 21, 2005)

If I had been the mom of the baby or the three year olds, I would have said, "Yikes! That sounds scary. You guys are big boys so you need to keep babies safe. Do you have a toy to show him? Or can you make faces for him?"


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## Max'sMama (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NewCrunchyDaddy* 
Yes I will ... and that sort of behavior will _not_ be tolerated and will be stopped immediately, and it's the sort of behavior that if I don't see, I would appreciate someone bringing to my attention because saying something like that is _not_ acceptable.

I agree, but having a 35 month old.....oh there are days that as long as there is no screaming or physical injuries among kids....I call the day a rousing success









But I do think the moms should have said something. Is the LLL group one that goes w/ the 'it takes a village' mentality? I would probably ask the LLL leader, if this group is that way, them the moms may have been waiting for your response, and since you didn't show your expectations, they may have felt no actions were necessary.

I agree that I would expect to be told if my child did/said something inappropriate though. FTR, when on public I take the stance to verbally correct (albiet VERY gently) when children act inaproprietly towards or around my child.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

The thread caught my eye b/c I also don't think a 3yo can be a bully in the classic sense. I would definitely have said something had it been my son (if they didn't I can see why that upset you), and I remember what it's like to have a little baby and look at these seemingly out-of-control older children. But a lot of undesirable and yes, unacceptable behavior cannot just be "stopped immediately" end of story. You just deal with it the best you can. I'd probably have apologized, but at the same time I'd be upset if it became a big issue. Personally I find it hard to be around moms without toddlers at certain stages, b/c I am very careful and he is pretty gentle, and yet I _still_ have felt looked down on at times for behavior that is totally age-appropriate, even if I dealt with it.


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## BetsyNY (Jul 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
I think this is way more appropriate than "That's not nice!" as many have suggested. Not only is "That's not nice!" a pretty judgement-laden statement, it's not very specific.


Whoa, hold the phone. "that's not nice" may be "judgement laden," but, well, telling someone you're going to cut their arms off ISN'T nice! I don't think three-year-olds understand "appropriate" or "acceptable," and even if they did, I don't see what's wrong with "that's not nice."


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## Tuesday (Mar 3, 2003)

This is an interesting thread, I had no idea how gruesome some 3 year olds can be! My DS is 3.5 year old and I admit he loves humour about poop and other related things but he's not yet advanced to the "heads off" and "sawing" a person in half. I'm interested to hear how widespread this sort of interest is!

The noise part - that sounds like typical 3 year old behaviour. My DS is very sweet but intense and when he's happy, he's HAPPY and LOUD and it's hard to 'quiet' without squelching his fun or creating a tantrum. Perhaps the moms just felt the La Leche meeting was a safe place for their kids to make noise and have fun.

I have a 5 month old baby and if I had overheard the 3 year olds threatening to saw my cutie baby in half, I'd have been creeped out too. (Although, apparently this sort of comment is normal - according to y'all.







) . Me, I'd have done something similar to some of the other suggestions: I'd have just walked over the 3 year olds, playacted a bit saying, "Saw my baby in half???? That sounds SCAREY! I don't think he'd like that. I don't like that either. SCARY!". But, I'd be smiling as I said this ... just as if it was all a big game - which to them, really, it is. And, then I'd walk away with and put my child in my lap. I admit that is not re-direction but it's likely what would happen if I was at a La Leche meeting and anxious to get back to my seat. I have to admit, I'm not that great about re-directing other people's kids. I'd rather just remove my child from the situation and let their parents deal with them as they see fit.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

You know I always questioned the violent speech I'd sometimes hear from older boys. I've yet to hear this kind of thing from my 3.5 yo, but things have gotten slightly more "violent" than the past, when "tomato in the hair" was as bad as it got. At one point his dinosaur ate his little people mechanic and it got a little graphic, and I have no idea where that came from, so never say never. I think it may have been in Ames and Ilg's _Your Three Year Old_ where they talked about this type of violent talk as being very normal for this age, for both boys and girls-- well maybe not cutting off babies' arms, but just about general destruction.

For me it's two things- I agree with most pps about the normal 3yo stuff. But I do agree that sometimes parents don't seem to do anything to address the behavior, and it's annoying no matter how old your child is.


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