# Abortion alternatives, activism attempt



## Journey (Jun 12, 2002)

Okay, we can debate up and down the subject of abortion, and whether or not it should be legal, but as has been mentioned, nothing's going to change if we don't attack the underlying social issues.

What leads a woman to aborting a physically *healthy* unborn child?

What changes can be made to decrease the amount of abortions?

Trying to decrease pregnancy itself doesn't seem to work. Some women just end up pregnant even when birth control is available. Birth control does fail, and if a woman's on birth control that goes without saying that she doesn't want to get pregnant. But, oops, she's pregnant. She doesn't want to be pregnant. Why? What changes can be made to help her with her pregnancy and entire life, so that this baby isn't seen as a burden that must go away?

Should convents still be available for pregnant women, so they can hide during their pregnancy if they're a teenager, pregnant out of wedlock, pregnant as a result of an affair, etc? With better treatment, and an addition of some college education or tech school it could benefit a lot of people. Is that so bad, or am I missing something?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

Should convents still be available for pregnant women, so they can hide during their pregnancy if they're a teenager, pregnant out of wedlock, pregnant as a result of an affair, etc? With better treatment, and an addition of some college education or tech school it could benefit a lot of people. Is that so bad, or am I missing something?
They are still available, though less common. I had a friend who went to one when she was pregnant and homeless at 17.

My problem with them (from what I've heard from others who have been to different ones) is that they tend to look on the pregnancy as a sin, rather than a joy to be celebrated. They do not encourage parenting at all; adoption only. They are often run like juvenile detention centers, with lockdowns and curfews and other restrictions. The one my friend was in would not permit soap opera watching or reading horror novels, since "we need to be careful about what we put into our minds" but they had an indoor smoking room for the mothers! How about what we put into our babies' bodies?!

I think these homes should encourage differing choices - to continue education/work or not, to have more children or not, to use birth control or not, to raise the child yourself or not, etc.

I don't believe in trying to hide the pregnancy - like I said before, pregnancy is a joy, no matter who is pregnant. I think these homes should be for people who are homeless or who are not welcome in their parents' homes, not for people whose parents want them to hide in shame.

I also think they should encourage different birthing choices!


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## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

I think that if a greater focus were put on fully educating women about their reproductive health, starting at a young age and continued and followed up on....I think we would see less unplanned pregnancy, and therefore less abortion.

I think some sort of safe house program for pregnant women would be a good idea as well.


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## Journey (Jun 12, 2002)

I agree, there should be some secular home. Like I said, some women do need to hide their pregnancies. It's not the greatest situation, but it happens.

Preferably, everybody would be educated before being pregnant against their wishes. However, like I said, it doesn't always happen that way.

Maybe if there was a home, where women can pursue an education, can have that time throughout their pregnancy where they decide whether or not to keep the baby, where they're hooked up with agencies in the community...

There's all sorts of possibilities there. I don't like restrictions on tv watching, curfews, and the like. I was in a children's home when I was a teenager, including one for pregnant and parenting teens. It was hell. There's a lot of changes that need to be done. What do you suggest?


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## Artisan (Aug 24, 2002)

Two things come to mind right away.

1. Gov't funded high quality child care so mothers could continue school/work.

2. Repealing the working requirements for unwed mothers to receive financial assistance from the gov't. (Every state has different rules about this, but most have some work requirement.)

I know that if I were say, 17, a high school senior, and unintentionally pregnant, I would be most scared that my educational opportunities would be down the drain. (Which for me, was a good four year university, not a job training program or community college). Perhaps if women knew that they didn't have to make the choice between work and school (as they often do now in terms of gov't benefits), and that there would be a trustworthy person to care for their child during the day, that would make a difference.

I also think that FORCING poor women to place their child in daycare so they can work two or three menial jobs to meet the gov't work requirement is wrong. All women deserve a chance to be home with their babies for at least a little while.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I agree - having a child should not be something we punish young, single women for! It should be something that causes us to offer our congratulations and support.

I think every child deserves to have a parent at home for the majority of its early years. Again, it should be about choice: the government should assist women with daycare costs if they have chosen to go back to school or find work, and the daycare should be of very high quality. There shouldn't be a two-class system of daycare in the US, with the assistance kids going to one type and the paying kids going to another.

I know some daycares mix assistance & pay kids, but the centers that do not accept assistance generally offer a higher quality of care.

I think the need for abortion would be reduced if women had more options. Another way to reduce abortion would be to reduce rape, insect and other forms of sexual abuse. If CPS focused more on removing the molested children instead of the children of pot-smoking mothers, and actually made sure they went to a decent foster home, that would be a start.


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## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by sharonal_
*Two things come to mind right away.

1. Gov't funded high quality child care so mothers could continue school/work.

2. Repealing the working requirements for unwed mothers to receive financial assistance from the gov't. (Every state has different rules about this, but most have some work requirement.)

I know that if I were say, 17, a high school senior, and unintentionally pregnant, I would be most scared that my educational opportunities would be down the drain. (Which for me, was a good four year university, not a job training program or community college). Perhaps if women knew that they didn't have to make the choice between work and school (as they often do now in terms of gov't benefits), and that there would be a trustworthy person to care for their child during the day, that would make a difference.

I also think that FORCING poor women to place their child in daycare so they can work two or three menial jobs to meet the gov't work requirement is wrong. All women deserve a chance to be home with their babies for at least a little while.*

YES!!!!!!!!!!
Or at least let them go to school! When I was preg with my dd I was on assistance but was HEAVILY pressured to quit college...with three semesters left.

I think the government should encourage schooling or work equally BUT with some sort of allowance to let them stay at home for a bit.


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Journey_
*Trying to decrease pregnancy itself doesn't seem to work.*
i guess i'm just not convinced we've made an honest attempt at providing the appropriate education at early enough ages to really make a difference. from communities i've observed, there are a whole lot of young women who know, basically, nothing, and have suitable access to, basically, no contraceptives (i don't mean in theory, i mean in practice.)

put another way: we're not succeeding in teaching a huge number of kids how to read and do basic math, the odds that we're successful in teaching them how to not get pregnant strike me as vanishingly small.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

ITA, dado!!!

I did well in school. In fact, I got the health award in 11th grade (the year in my school district you had to take Health class)--- I know you're all terribly impressed







: That said, I knew *nothing* about my body (compared to what I think every woman should know) until I was about 24 and read "Taking Charge of Your Fertility." So many people know really *nothing* about birth control, their cycles, anything.

I DO NOT accept that we have done everything we can with pregnancy prevention. And it seems when ever a school district tries to increase their sex ed it is a BIG STINK because parents want to teach their children themselves--- but they are obviously NOT. And our society owes it to itself to get that info out!


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

before somebody sends a volley of arrows my way from -> that side of the screen for using the word "contraceptive", let me add that teaching the NFP Rhythm thing would also be good because G-d knows it implies getting a heck of a lot more knowledge about the internals than they're getting now.

and young men should learn it right alongside the young women: all that complicated charting and temperaturing might teach them a little respect.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Wow, I guess I'm surprised that so many people lack basic education in how their body works. My mom was very forthcoming and open about body function, sex and pregnancy ect plus I read alot on my own and was fully versed at an early age. No worries about library books at my house.

When I had sex ed in the 70s it was pretty basic. Since we HS I'm not up on what PS is teaching now. Although there is current discussion about getting rid of abstinance education at our local schools because they say it isn't working.

Maybe some parents are making the inaccurate assumption that if kids don't understand that they won't have sex??







:

My dd is 14 and we;ve discussed charting ect.

edited to add, now that I think about it I'm not surprised that some kids are ignorant of basic bodily functions. There was a big push for abstinance only sex ed in the not to distant past.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

let me add that teaching the NFP Rhythm thing would also be good because G-d knows it implies getting a heck of a lot more knowledge about the internals than they're getting now.
I'm actually a big proponent of "medical" birth control, but I think NFP is something that everyone should be aware of. Can I plug, "Taking Charge of Your Fertility" again? A book I think *EVERYONE* should read. I wish I had read that in high school. It also encourages a lot of pride in a womans' body/cycle IMO.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I have another approach - I believe some of us were just meant to be parents at young, socially unacceptable ages. I don't think pregnancy prevention is the answer, except among people who are actively trying to avoid pregnancy and/or sex. Throughout the ages, teens have been parents and I think they will continue to be. I think they need support and not discouragement. I don't think teen pregnancy and parenting is something that can be ended with enough education; I think for some of us it's just what's normal.

As for NFP, it can be used for more than contraception. It can be a valuable way to know about your body. I am 25, and did not understand anything about reproduction or menstruation until I was 16. And I went to public schools, it wasn't like I was raised in some religious freak show. So "in this day and age" ignorance persists. This will most likely be my last baby, and dh is getting a vasectomy, but I would still like to chart just for the body familiarity.

As for single adults, they could use more access to birth control methods of their choice. I have no problem with people planning to be single parents, though I don't think anyone would do it unless they had the money to support themselves.


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## Els' 3 Ones (Nov 19, 2001)

I just put this up on the thread under war/politics............I'll just cut and paste.

STOP THE SHAME!!!

I don't think sex is immoral.

I think it is time we come out of the "shame room" with regards to sex. It's 2004 and, imo, much of the progress the sexual revolution brought about has been undermined and shoved back into that room................

I was lucky enough at 14 to be able to go to Planned Parenthood and get on the pill. Nowadays, ppl can't do that - most states have an under 18 parental consent law.................
THAT is a shame. I would have hoped that 30 yrs after I did it the vibe would be more toward having ppl take responsibility for sex instead of putting it further into the shame closet. We already are on a slippery slope ppl, and headed in the wrong direction, imo.

Look at the Netherlands, the lowest abortion rate in the world. They accepted a number of years ago that teens were going to engage in sex and that helping them be responsible was better than shaming them...................it worked. The shame now falls on those who engage in unprotected sex.

Most notably to me is that males take the same responsibility as females .................... I've been watching a long, long time here and do not see any more accepting by males here than I did 30 years ago!

I am not an immoral person. I began having sex at 13. So sorry for those of you that think my compass needs correcting, it does not.

Get the gov't out of my body, out of my bedroom and out of my marriage.

Thank you very much.

El


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*I don't think teen pregnancy and parenting is something that can be ended with enough education; I think for some of us it's just what's normal.*
apologies if anything i wrote came across as being upset about teen pregnancy itself: there was an implied "unintended" in there, i'll try and be more explicit in the future. in fact, now that i think about it, maybe we should stop referring to it as teen pregnancy completely since what's really at issue is unintended/unwanted pregnancy - and that can happen at any age.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Good point about the unintended part. But isn't it a bit ironic that our species ( like others) is designed to reproduce and that we have added so much shame onto reproducing if it doesn't fit someones elses concept of the right time. Of course we aren't in danger of becoming extinct and I'm all for trying our best to plan for our reproduction but I agree with previous posters that getting rid of shame what we need.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

I was lucky enough at 14 to be able to go to Planned Parenthood and get on the pill. Nowadays, ppl can't do that - most states have an under 18 parental consent law.................
I read that in those states, a woman under 18 can only get contraception if she already has children.

It used to be in Oregon you had to be 14, then they changed it to "any age" (and this was without parental knowledge or consent) and now I wonder if you have to be 18.

It seems for prevention of unwanted pregnancies and abortions, there are these basic things:
- Prevent unwanted sexual intercourse.
- Easy access to contraceptives of choice, teaching about body awareness/fertility charting.
- If unwanted pregnancy occurs, do everything possible to make it a wanted one.
- Ensure that all babies given up for adoption each go to equally good homes, no matter what the babies may have wrong with them or who the birth mothers are.
- Make childrearing as easy and enjoyable as possible for women who would normally find it difficult, such as single women, teens or those in poverty.


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## Journey (Jun 12, 2002)

I don't think you guys get it... a lot of the teen moms I know, myself included, WANTED to get pregnant when they were teens. Many did it on purpose, or not necessarily on purpose but because they didn't care one way or the other. I got pregnant at age 16, but I was engaged to my husband at the time, and I felt that financially we were capable of getting by okay.

Having birth control available isn't going to stop teen pregnancy. Education isn't going to stop teen pregnancy. I heard it all. I knew what I was getting myself into at the time.

I never contemplated abortion. It was mentioned once or twice, as in "What are you going to do?" and just the thought of it disgusted me so much it made me want to cry. I got physicallly ill from just thinking about it for 1/10 of a second (not thinking that I'd do it, but just the idea that some women do it).


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## Artisan (Aug 24, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Journey_
*I don't think you guys get it... a lot of the teen moms I know, myself included, WANTED to get pregnant when they were teens. Many did it on purpose, or not necessarily on purpose but because they didn't care one way or the other. I got pregnant at age 16, but I was engaged to my husband at the time, and I felt that financially we were capable of getting by okay.

Having birth control available isn't going to stop teen pregnancy. Education isn't going to stop teen pregnancy. I heard it all. I knew what I was getting myself into at the time.

I never contemplated abortion. It was mentioned once or twice, as in "What are you going to do?" and just the thought of it disgusted me so much it made me want to cry. I got physicallly ill from just thinking about it for 1/10 of a second (not thinking that I'd do it, but just the idea that some women do it).*
But you asked what would reduce the number of abortions. In your case, you had no intention of having one, and you got pregnant on purpose. So you're not the intended beneficiary of these programs/educational initiatives, etc. that we've been discussing.









I am a public high school teacher, and honey, there are people who have never heard of a uterus, and think that a baby actually grows in a woman's stomach where the food goes. (I was actually asked recently if all the hot food hurt the baby when it went into the stomach.) People DO need education. Perhaps you did not. Many others do.


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## urklemama (May 4, 2003)

What would reduce abortions?

The sudden magical appearance of jobs paying a family wage, plus the sudden magical appearance of a culture that defines manhood as taking responsibility for your children.

If you've got the resources, go back of couple of generations and calculate the time between your ancestors' wedding dates and the births of their first children.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Have any of you read the new Ina May book? There are stories from women who were in labor and had no idea where the baby would come out. One thought it would come out her throat.









I guess people shouldn't be educated about these matters, because then they will have multiple sex partners and get AIDS, not to mention the terrible sin of pregnancy.







:


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I'm definately for adding Taking Charge of Your Fertility to the added reading for (at least the girls) high school health classes. Or even middle school? Why not read it once you start getting your period, which for a lot of girls now is middle school?

And we'd need to change the attitude of society as a whole. Our culture looks at kids as an inconvenience, not a blessing. If people said, "Oh, that's wonderful," to pregnant moms, instead of "What are you going to do now?" I think things would be a lot different.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I think guys should read TCOYF too. It's bad enough they don't even know what/where a clitoris is. You can be they don't teach that in school! There are these new handbooks for the abstinence-only classes, and the female anatomy diagrams do not include a clitoris.

In TCOYF there was a blurb about a guy who did all his wife's charting. And really, a guy can do all the work - read the book, take his wife's temp and check her fluids, write it all down - if the wife is willing to lie there and be "examined!"


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*It's bad enough they don't even know what/where a clitoris is. You can be they don't teach that in school! There are these new handbooks for the abstinence-only classes, and the female anatomy diagrams do not include a clitoris.
*










The clitoris, the clitoris, a woman's special treasure,
the only human body part whose sole function is pleasure...
It feels nice over here,
It feels nice over there,
A clit is your friend anywhere!

Where was Theo Geisel when we needed him?
"Green Eggs and Ham" my eye.

:LOL


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Wonderful poem, SO, I think I'll share that with DH when next we get some time alone
















Quote:

Have any of you read the new Ina May book? There are stories from women who were in labor and had no idea where the baby would come out. One thought it would come out her throat.
OKay, that is just wrong. Is the new book called, "Ina May's Guide to Childbirth" or is there a more recent one (this was a 2003). I'll get it at the library


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## shine (Nov 20, 2001)

I'm in a graduate nursing program and we have two visiting students from Finland -- men! -- and while in a class recently we were reviewing a case study regarding teenage pregnancy and STDs (which oh so often go together!).

My Finnish friend was horrified at our statistics! Horrified! He leaned over to me with eyes WIDE open







and said "I vill not have sex while in dis country!!!!" Not that he would have had sex with a teenager, but rather it was clear to him that STDs are rampant and people here just don't know the basics of their bodies' functionality

We then talked about sex ed in his country where there are far fewer teen and unwanted pregnancies and the STD rate is significantly lower than it is here. He said in Finland they begin teaching sex ed in the 3rd grade and keep it up. Now that's obviously working.

I'm all about education!

Sandi


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Thanks for that info Shine!!!

Definately ammo for the education camp


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

Trying to decrease pregnancy itself doesn't seem to work.
I disagree. I don't think any real attempt has been made to decrease pregnancy. The sex ed classes that are allowed to be taught in school are pathetic. Our culture is embarassed and ashamed about sexuality, and especially about the female body. Pro-lifers fight against teenagers having access to birth control. Many women don't even know what their options are. Many women still think that you can't get pregnant if the man withdraws before ejaculating or that you can't get pregnant during your period, or a bunch of other nonsense.

Until women's bodies are respected and given as much attention and focus as men's bodies in this country, we will continue to have too many unwanted pregnancies. How many posts have there been on these boards alone about how women know how to tell their sons what their penis is, the testicles, the foreskin, etc., but don't know what to tell their daughter? Is it a vulva, a vagina, what? And even if they do know, they are embarassed to say it. But they have no problem saying penis. What is wrong with this country that women's bodies are something to be embarassed about?

I don't believe this is the only contributor, but I think it is a big one.

A story I wanted to share:

One time when I was a teenager I pulled over because I saw a friend of mine while I was driving, and it happened to be in front of a Planned Parenthood clinic. A woman came over to my car and started yelling at me about being a sinner and some other bullcrap, because she assumed I was going into Planned Parenthood. What if I had been trying to get information about or access to birth control? I'm sure she was a prolifer trying to make her point, but the only thing she possibly would have succeeded in doing was sending me back to my boyfriend with no birth control, and more likely to end up getting pregnant.


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by oceanbaby_
*Many women still think that you can't get pregnant if the man withdraws before ejaculating or that you can't get pregnant during your period, or a bunch of other nonsense.
*
Umm...








But it's true, isn't it?


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

No, it's not true. Some semen is leaked out before ejaculation. And some women do ovulate during or shortly after their period, and sperm lives for 3 or 4 days, so if you have sex during your period you can still get pregnant.


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

Oh, I realize all that, and am not advocating this for teenagers...
But not ejaculating does reduce risk of pregnancy, obviously, and if you know some of the signals of ovulation (almost never during period) it's easier to avoid pregnancy. These wishy-washy methods are what I have depended on to space my children five years apart...and sometimes just plain luck...but of course, any time would have been okay for us. And even pills and condoms fail sometimes
Look, I'm not arguing, but there is *something* to the methods you listed as 'just plain ignorant', as opposed to Cola douches and jumping up and down.

Whatever the case, Ignorance Bad, Education Good...

Carry on....


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Oh, I wasn't trying to argue, just stating reproductive information. I can personally attest to the withdrawal method as being bad birth control! That is what I would want them to know - that you can still get pregnant if you do this things. And they should also know that you can get pregnant even if you use condoms, and they should know how to use condoms most effectively.

I think it is great that you know so much about how your body works, and that is what I wish more girls (and women) knew. I myself didn't know anything about ovulation, what it meant, or the signs of it until I was interested in having a baby and started researching it myself. If ovulation and fertility issues in general were taught seriously and in detail, imagine how many girls would be able to avoid getting pregnant. Women really need to be more empowered about their bodies, and it needs to start young, IMO.


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## Mummoth (Oct 30, 2003)

I'm in BC Canada, where you have to pay about $10. for a 12 pack of condoms, or $25. a month for birth control pills, or about $40. for a diaphragm, plus $15. for a tube of spermicide, or about $20. for the morning after pill, plus $8. for an anti-nauseant. Depo Provera is about $50. (?)

Abortions are covered by the *healthcare system... FREE.

It seems to me that if women could obtain FREE birth control, the abortion rate would go down (even if only methods that didn't rely on pateints to use them properly were offered... IUD, Depo Provera and the like)

*in the Canadian system, everyone pays about $35./month, and everyone is covered by healthcare... it's prorated for people who can't afford $35. a month.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

In the US there are some plans that will cover an abortion but not birth control.

I had a plan once that would pay for an abortion or a c-section, but not contraception or vaginal births.







:


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

I got pregnant as a teen, unwanted........and I can say I knew nothing about how I got pregnant, how to prevent it, nothing. My mom was too embarassed to talk about it with me. I grew up with shame about my body, sex etc due to the religious beliefs of my mother, church and the catholic school I attended.

I agree, its not just education in the schools........its education at home, its removing the shame about our bodies.....its teaching our boys too!

But at least MORE/BETTER education in the schools would be a start. Available & affordable contraception would be a start.

If only the world were as conscious as the women on this board!


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