# Do you feel weird lying to the kids (re:santa)?



## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

Does anyone feel weird about lying to their children about santa? Does anyone not tell their kids the santa lie? My DS is almost 3, so this will be the first year he really hears any mention of santa. I feel kind of weird about it. I try to teach him that lying is wrong and here I am, lying to him about someone who does not exist. I do understand the fun and excitement behind it but I also do remember finding out my mother was lying to me and feeling a little sad about it when I was 8.

Anyone else feel strange about the whol santa "myth"?


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

My kids know we are their santa. We told them there used to be a man that gave kids gifts etc.... and now we carry on that tradition by being their special santa.


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## sweetfeet (Jan 16, 2003)

Yes I feel weird and thats why I don't lie to her. Why should I lie about something like Santa just for me to tell her the truth in 4ish years?


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Yes I do feel weird about it. Dh and I haven't decided what we're going to do yet. He is all for Santa but it strikes me the wrong way. I've seen these threads every year on MDC and always ignored them I guess because my children were too young for it to be an issue but I'll be interested to see this discussion this year.

My twins are 3 1/2 and I hate the idea of lying to them at all, much less to tell them that some white man from "the north pole" makes and distributes their Christmas presents based solely on whether or not HE deems that they have been "good."







: Grrrrrrrr.

But on the other hand, putting out cookies and milk for Santa and going to bed only to wake up to the miraculous appearance of presents under the tree and a stocking teeming with little treasures is the stuff childhood memories are made of (well, mine anyway).

And then there's the desire I have to take each child out Christmas shopping just me and him/her, both as a fun outing but also to teach thoughtfulness as we talk/think together about what their siblings, aunts, uncles, gramma, papa, etc. would really love and appreciate.

And then there's those damn cookies and milk. I mean, awwwww how cute is that.

But then it shouldn't be all about the presents anyway. Focusing on the Santa myth (lie) makes Christmas the conspicuous consumer holiday that it has become.

Anyway... yeah... I'm conflicted.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Nope, not at all. My elder child is 11 and she found out last year, and it was not an issue. She appreciated that we go to all that trouble (and expense) to do this for them.


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## ~Nikki~ (Aug 4, 2004)

I don't think of it as lying, but instead as encouraging imagination (or maybe that's just my way of justifying it...I don't care!







) I was "lied" to about Santa as a child, and when I got to the age that I started getting sceptical, I didn't resent my parents or get angry about the lie. It makes the holiday even more fun, and gives you a little extra to look forward to. I still love Christmas, and get excited about the season, the traditions, and all that goes with it.

I honestly don't know a single person that was scarred by the Santa lie.

So yes, we allow our kids to beleive in Santa. I'm sure they'll also beleive in faries, angels, talking animals and (dare I say it) God, if they chose to.









I should also add that I have every intention of being honest with my kids when/if they ask if Santa is real. I'm not going to lie to them, if they want to know the truth. I knew that there was no Santa from a very young age, but still participated in all of the "Santa things" (sitting on his lap, getting a stocking, leaving cookies and milk, etc.) just for the fun of it.


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## Daisie125 (Oct 26, 2005)

I felt totally betrayed when I found out Santa wasn't real as a child, and I still have trust issues because of it. It took me until I was an adult to even enjoy Christmas again. DH doesn't care either way, so we choose not to lie about Santa.

We'll tell stories _about_ Santa, but we will never tell our children that he is real. I would rather die than cause my children to feel the way I felt about my parents.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

We do the tooth fairy but he knows that *we* are the tooth fairy but we still say tooth fairy.


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## tiffer23 (Nov 7, 2005)

Our baby isn't here yet, but we'll be "lying" about Santa. I don't feel bad about telling our nieces and nephews about him. I think it's an imagination thing, not a lie. I remember finding out Santa wasn't real and I was never mad or angry about it. I think most kids kind of have an idea that Santa isn't real a year or two before they stop believing all together. Most of the time it's not an all of a sudden thing. BUT, that's just from the kids I've been around. (We've got 18 kids under 12 in our family) To me, Santa is part of the magic of being a child.


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## LDSmomma6 (Oct 31, 2003)

If you don't believe in Santa then you don't believe in giving. I believe in Santa, and I tell my kids that I believe in Santa.

But of course you mean the jolly red elf...I tell them what I just said above, but when they get to be about ten (like my DD), then yes, I will tell her that there really isn't such a man that goes house to house to house, but that Santa means giving, and it's ok to still "believe" in him. My oldest (15) still gets excited for Santa to come. After telling them though, I make them promise to not tell the others.

Let kids have an imagination, and let them be kids. They will be teenagers and adults before you know it, and you will be sad because they aren't kids anymore.


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## jordmoder (Nov 20, 2001)

h'mmmm I don't think we're lying about santa... we say that Santa is a spirit of loving and giving, and that he has many many helpers. I think that gets away from the personification of Santa and yet maintains the idea of giving - our "Santa" sure doesn't have a list, though!

Barbara, mama to 6 and 3.5 yo wonderful boys


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## milk4two (Mar 20, 2003)

We tell our kids the truth about Santa, but I swear it's more complicated than just following the party line. My 3 and 5 year old keep asking me why Santa is dead and are having the hardest time keeping the news from friends.


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jordmoder*
h'mmmm I don't think we're lying about santa... we say that Santa is a spirit of loving and giving, and that he has many many helpers. I think that gets away from the personification of Santa and yet maintains the idea of giving - our "Santa" sure doesn't have a list, though!

That is a great idea! I'm really conflicted about what I tell my DS about Santa. I don't want to completely lie to him but I also don't want him to be left out of the fun and excitement, so this sounds like a happy medium. I'm also concerned about him being the one to ruin it for all his friends later in life, since he'll be one of the few that know the truth. I'm sure a lot of parents would be upset with me







:

I like the idea of telling him the story of santa and his "many helpers" and then when he gets older he can see that I am one of the "many helpers". Thanks for the idea mama!


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## Stevie (Jun 20, 2004)

My oldest son is 29 years old now and I told him when he was 2 (and just barely 2 since his bday is mid November) that we like to pretend play that an elf named Santa brings gifts while we are sleeping on December 24th.
I have carried on with the same tradition with my younger babies. Delany will go with me to help pick out the little gifts for her brother and Daddy's stockings. We get to leave out the carrot, cookie and tea for Santa and we collect Black Santas to use as decorations during the season, so it feels like the right compromise for us









We are also not Christian, so perhaps it is less conflicting for us...

ETA: I also made it clear that some kids don't know it's a pretend play, so anyone who tells another kid before their parents are ready for them to know stops getting Santa gifts


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I did not like the Santa lie at all. I never felt comfortable with it and never really told it to my kids, but the rest of the world got to them with it. Fortunately when they were still pretty young we were able to clear it all up and we have happily read many stories of the Santa myth and how they came to be.







I do not care for the lie personally.


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jordmoder*
h'mmmm I don't think we're lying about santa... we say that Santa is a spirit of loving and giving, and that he has many many helpers. I think that gets away from the personification of Santa and yet maintains the idea of giving - our "Santa" sure doesn't have a list, though!

I like that.

I don't see it as a lie, but I guess it's in the presentation. I grew up with a lot of storytelling, a lot of myth-telling. When I was little, I saw the Santa story as very concrete and real, and that was developmentally appropriate for where I was. As I grew older, I gradually came to understand the symbolic aspects of the story, and made my "peace" with Santa and my parents just fine, no trauma or hard feelings. He became a spirit of giving with many helpers, as mentioned above. My parents asked me, for a few years, to let my little sister come to her own understanding of Santa, and she arrived at the same conclusion as I had several years later. I suspect there was some subtle help from my parents, but I don't specifically remember anything overt. They told us stories, we had certain rituals we performed on Christmas Eve (cookies and hot cocoa, carrots and apples for the reindeer), and it was fun. And my parents STILL put a special present from Santa for us under the tree every year.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

A Myth is not a lie. It is a myth. Same with stories and all things pretend.
Whenever I tell my children stories and play pretend with them I do not feel I am "lying" to them. SO why should I feel it is lying when the myth is Santa.
I encourage make believe in our home.
So while we fully believe in Santa in our home. I in no way consider it a lie.
Joline


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Stevie*
My oldest son is 29 years old now and I told him when he was 2 (and just barely 2 since his bday is mid November) that we like to pretend play that an elf named Santa brings gifts while we are sleeping on December 24th.

We'll do something like that- encourage the imagination part of it, but never tell him that Santa is real.
I honestly don't see how telling children that Santa is a real person, who comes to your house every Christmas and brings gifts, is not a lie







It's not true. Even dp, who wanted to do Santa, says it's lying (but not a bad lie lol) Now, just going along with it, and not saying one way or the other, and answering any questions honestly is a little different, but I personally wouldn't be comfortable doing that, either.
So, ds will be told flat out that Santa is not a real person, but we'll probably do all the Santa stuff too. Like make-believe play, that we all get to do.

But then, I should say, that I HATE presents, and how its become almost the whole meaning of Christmas. And I'm not Christian.

eta- my family STILL has gifts "from Santa" and I think that's fun


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *earthmama369*
I don't see it as a lie, but I guess it's in the presentation.

I guess it is the presentation. My parents liked to use Santa to threaten me to behave. They would say things like "Santa is watching and he's not going to bring you any toys if you keep being bad like that" etc. They used this all year round. I guess that is why I was kind of upset when I found out they were lying about santa.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *milk4two*
... My 3 and 5 year old keep asking me why Santa is dead and are having the hardest time keeping the news from friends.

Which is why I hope all dd2's friends believe. She would be devestated to find out at that age (5). I know I was, mainly because of the source and the age.


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## scatterbrainedmom (May 31, 2005)

What about the easter bunny? I refuse to lie to my kids about him/her. DH thinks I am weird, we believed and they should believe. I just think that telling them about this huge 6ft bunny that comes into the house at night is just a little freaky.

And Santa, we are still debating. I don't want to pretend, DH does. Anyone see a pattern lol. We don't make reference to Santa but we do take them for pics with Santa every year.

Sorry to hijack about the bunny boy lol


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## Attila the Honey (Mar 15, 2003)

Santa isn't a huge part of Xmas for me, and I am not going to really emphasize Santa to dd. But at the same time, if she somehow picks up the myth I am certainly not going to 'ruin' that for her. I know she will pick it up, too.

I don't remember my parents ever actively teaching me about Santa or telling me about him. When I found out he wasn't real I wasn't mad and didn't feel lied to, at least not that I can recall. I think it's a fun, magical, imaginative part of Xmas that is a part of the culture I come from. My gma believed in St. Nicholas and Black Peter 100 years ago, and passed her stories to my mother and I. It's an important part of who we are, at least to me.

(But this is coming from the person that has a fairy house in the backyard and tells her dd stories about the elves, gnomes, pixies and fairies that lived in the Black Forest where her gma came from and lives in the woods we visit now.







)


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## surf mama (Jan 8, 2005)

my dd is only 2.5 so it's not a huge issue yet...but I am not into Santa and I don't plan on giving her gifts from Santa or anything like that. And I'm not into the pictures with Santa either. From books and holiday decorations she has seen pictures of Santa and she knows what his name is but she doesn't know the story of him yet. I guess as she gets older I'll have to find a way to explain that people like to tell his story and have fun pretending. I'm sure I'll be back here next year on a similar thread trying to figure out how to word that.

I am a Christian and I think it is confusing to say Santa, Easter Bunny etc are real and so is God. I want her to grow up trusting what I say and knowing clearly what is real and what is just fun and imagination/pretend. I think some of my family members will think I am being too extreme, but dh and I agree on this and feel good about our decision.


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

We don't lie. Why does it have to be all or nothing.








Why can't Santa be seen for who he is, a pretend fun character.
For us Christmas is about the birth of Christ, but I don't see a pretend Santa robbing from that, so long as he is not put centre stage.

Quote:

But on the other hand, putting out cookies and milk for Santa and going to bed only to wake up to the miraculous appearance of presents under the tree and a stocking teeming with little treasures is the stuff childhood memories are made of.
See now I'm planning on doing those very things, just because we know it's pretend dosn't mean we can't have fun.

As to the easter bunny, well we don't like him, don't do him. lol sorry bunny, but your sacked around here!







I know maybe it's weird to pretend Santa and not the bunny but somehow easter for us is a very sacrid time, a more serious time and the bunny just seems to flipint. So far we havn't done eggs either, but then we also don't do a Christmas tree. These all seem very pagan to us.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

No. I'd feel weird if dd never had the magic of Santa.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

I expect my kids to trust me, well how is it not violating that trust if I insist that a pretend story is true? I remember when the realization came over me that Santa isn't real, and I felt very bad about it -- it really sullied the whole thing for me. To be clear, it was not the knowledge that it is pretend that ruined it -- pretend can be an awesome, magical, beautiful thing -- but that my parents intentionally led me to believe that a pretend thing was real when they knew very well it was not.

Kids are perfectly capable of appreciating and enjoying fairy tales as pretend. I just don't understand what is gained by leading them to believe that the fairy tales are fact.


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## grahamsmom98 (May 15, 2002)

*Now wait just a darn minute!

What do you mean Santa isn't real??!!*

For dh, Christmas is a holy day (he's Catholic). However, he also grew-up with the Santa "myth".

For ds (age 7) & me, it is the culmination of a month-long magical fairy tale.

(((For our entire family, it is the anniversary of the death of my darling mil (she was so terrific))))

We also "do" the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.

I don't see it as lying. I see nothing wrong in encouraging and sharing in a wonderful and loving dream with children. Children are only children once, and I think they NEED make-believe and fantasy in their lives (do you discourage imaginary friends?). Make believe that is shared with their parents and families and friends. Why this need to force children into adult reality so soon? Do those of you that feel it is lying, refuse to go along with your children as they play fantasy games (because, those fantasies are just lies, as well).

((I can't believe that any adult is still carrying issues just because they found out Santa wasn't real when they were kids. Obviously, there was more lying in their childhoods beyond Christmas myths.))


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grahamsmom98*
Do those of you that feel it is lying, refuse to go along with your children as they play fantasy games (because, those fantasies are just lies, as well).

no, of course I wouldn't refuse to play along. But I would never insist that it was real. That's the difference to me. In children's fantasies, THEY created it. they know what it is, and that its not real (or only real to them, or whatever). There is no adult saying "This toy dog is actually alive" or "there really are fairy pricesses being held captive by dragons. I saw it. They live in Europe. No, honey, the people who say its not true are wrong."
If I tell ds that Santa is not real, but that he's a pretend elf, who we have fun playing with at Chistmas time, and HE decides to take that info, and talk about Santa as though he's real, I will play along. But I will also take care to never give misinformation that he will perceive as truth, as well. And I will make sure that he understands it to be exactly what it is- a fairy tale.
Parents are trusted. Children have a hard time believing that anything a parent says is untrue. I'm not going to knowingly give him any information that is untrue.
That's not to say that I think its bad to tell kids that Santa is real. To each her own, I guess.

Quote:

I expect my kids to trust me, well how is it not violating that trust if I insist that a pretend story is true?
Exactly. I think its the fact that adults *insist* that its true that bothers me. And they make up one story after another, insisting that each is true, in order to keep their children believing that Santa is real.


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## Daisie125 (Oct 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grahamsmom98*
((I can't believe that any adult is still carrying issues just because they found out Santa wasn't real when they were kids. Obviously, there was more lying in their childhoods beyond Christmas myths.))

No, not really. I loved and very much trusted my mother, and it never even occurred to me that she would be anything less than truthful with me. I VERY clearly remember being nearly laughed out of a class because I admitted I still believed in Santa (this was 2nd grade). Trust me, it was traumatizing, and for you or anyone else to insinuate anything else disturbs me. Children DO suffer from the Santa "myth". Some children are sensitive and naive, and that combination plus a lie from a trusted adult CAN and DOES cause life long damage.

We PRETEND about Santa. But my daughter is in on the game. She knows it's pretend, and has WAY more fun than I ever did when I 'believed'.


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## mommaJ (May 3, 2005)

I was very angry and upset with my mother when she told me Santa was not real. She told me when I was 7ish because she could not afford any of the gifts on my list, but I was certain that Santa would bring them. She sat me down and explained the situation very nicely, but I felt so betrayed! I cried and said some mean things to her. She decided not to do Santa with my sister 10 years later.

That said, I don't necessarily think it has effected any part of my adult life except the way I will choose to handle it with DD. We will do the pretending together, not "the Santa is real" thing.


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## Jster (Apr 22, 2003)

I think the only "trauma" that comes from believing in Santa is in being confronted by society that the belief is false...which I very much attribute to the challenge people have about any "belief" they hold true, be it belief in God, belief in Mother Nature, belief in peace or harmony or anything!!!

I was pretty traumatized by finding out that Santa didn't exist...but only because it happened in a bad way! At 5, I went to my dad and step-mom's for Christmas, and my half-sister had tons more presents than either my sister or I did. I felt so sad that Santa must have thought I was a bad kid, that I was crying to my mom after she picked me up, and she told me Santa wasn't real.

So, was the problem that I believed in Santa? Or was it that I believed that Santa only gave presents to good kids (and that I would therefore be measured in a materialistic way...personally, the thing I DO hate about Christmas)? And the people who reinforced that aspect of the "myth" were most likely the same ones who dashed my spirit by carelessly applying Santa in our lives (my dad and step mom, knowing them).

You could say the same thing about people who believe in God, and people who take another step and believe that God condemns all those who don't practice religion a certain way. Yup, I think that's bound to be harmful. But it happens all the time. And it isn't enough reason to force my kids to not believe in any higher spirit or purpose, just because some abuse that idea and it'll be hard to face them one day. And my kids have to have a thick enough skin to one day say to someone who tells them they are going to hell, "Your understanding of God doesn't rule MY life." (I've been told that by fundamentalist "friends" since elementary school.)

I have a friend who very strictly doesn't "lie" to her child about Santa...but lets her believe in mermaids.







Because for her, Santa is dangerous (in the way it is abused in our society) but she as an individual loves the idea of mermaids soooo much that she can't help but wish it were true, so she goes along with her daughter's interest and encourages her believing in mermaids.

Well, I love the idea of a true caring Santa sooo much that I can't help but wish it were true...


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I don't think Santa is a lie... I agree with pp's that presentation matters.
I think some people go overboard to make Santa evidence to convince their kids. To me, I think Santa needs to largely be left to the child's imagination. If my dd didn't want to believe in Santa I wouldn't try to convince her.

Santa in our house is the one who fills the stockings. The rest of the presents are from us. When I was growing up, the presents from Santa were the ones that were not signed. Santa was elusive and magical. Santa persisted long after we stopped writing letters and knew it was my parents- although I never once caught them at it. We all played along because it was fun. As I got older, I had fun playing Santa and slipping things in my parent's stockings.

Dd made a Christmas wish list but didn't really write a letter to Santa. We completely forgot to do cookies for Santa last year with dd but maybe this year we'll leave something out. I'll leave it up to dd I guess. She has decided that the Christmas Schnauzer is going to bring her presents this year. Santa gets to ride in the sleigh, but the dog gets to drive it.








According to dd, the tooth fairy is a dog too. And there is an Easter Beagle... not a bunny. I guess the girl just likes dogs.







: She is making up her own myths.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

I could never lie to my kids.

I was one of those kids who felt horribly betrayed when they found out. Imagine that all the fun stuff in your life, Santa, the Easter bunny and the Tooth fairy were all based on lies. I never really forgave my parents for that.


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## sweetfeet (Jan 16, 2003)

Quote:

If you don't believe in Santa then you don't believe in giving
Are you serious? Really I'm quite the giving person. I just don't happen to believe in Santa and when I did find out that he wasn't real it was due to very bad circumstances which I don't need to go into here. Not everyone is christian. Not everyone celebrates Christmas and santa and they are still giving and generous people.

As for it being just a myth and why ruin it? Well it isn't a myth or just playing pretend when you say that a man is going to come and leave presents and eat cookies that you sit out. That is saying that he is real and he will be there.

Sophie can think what she wants and when she says, "Oh, look its santa!" I don't go oh thats silly he's fake. I won't, however, say that he will be coming here and leaving gifts because he isn't. I don't see it as taking away something magical at all. I see it as being honest and truthful. I don't go out of my way to ruin it for her or any other child. I certainly wouldn't tell my nieces that he isn't real when they read me their Christmas lists. I'm not heartless.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

:


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## mirthfulmum (Mar 3, 2003)

My oldest son, A., is 3 and a half and is really getting into the whole Santa thing. Last weekend we took him to the Santa Clause Parade and he had a blast. And he was all excited that Santa Clause was comming to town and that the big guy was going to be comming by in his sliegh at the end of the parade. And then Santa came and A. was so happy and waved and smiled and was thrilled when Santa waved back. And then he asked me if that was the real Santa... I choked. I was so unsure what to say. Was he, wasn't he? Should I keep the myth alive? Am I a liar if I say yes? How much of the whoel santa mythology can I explain to a 3 year old? I decided to go for the standard, no he's not the real Santa but one of Santa's helpers routine, and he was pretty disapointed. So then I back tracked and said that maybe I was wrong and that maybe it was the real Santa. A, was much happier with that, and was pretty sure that yes, mom was wrong and that was the real Santa. He loves the idea that Santa is real.

So yeah we're keeping the Santa myth in our home. It's fun. And Santa really is the representation of love and generosity for the holiday season. So when A. is older, and also our younger son of course, we will slowly introduce the concept of Santa being a symbol of the season, like the Christmas tree. But for now, I'm going to let my kids' imagination run away with them. That was my favourite part about Christmas when I was a child.


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## oyemicanto (Feb 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
A Myth is not a lie. It is a myth. Same with stories and all things pretend.
Whenever I tell my children stories and play pretend with them I do not feel I am "lying" to them. SO why should I feel it is lying when the myth is Santa.
I encourage make believe in our home.
So while we fully believe in Santa in our home. I in no way consider it a lie.
Joline


My thoughts exactly! When I tell my DD that the shimmery lights on the lake are fairies coming out to say hello, am I lying or encouraging her imagination?

For us, Santa is an important part of our Christmas celebration. We never talk about him in terms of rewarding "good" or "bad" behavior, but rather that it is about love and generousity. We don't overwhelm, our kids won't be waking up to Toys R Us in the living room, but a few new toys that will make the day special.

The issue I have with Santa is the commerialization of Christmas in general. Some parents focus so much on the buying and spending and overdo it imho, rather than enjoying the beauty and magic of the season. I would rather bake cookies and distribute them to neighbors and have friends over for carolling than give my kids a Walmart circular and have them circle all the things they want. Ugh.

Children are children and live in a different world than we adults. Their minds are full of the reality of their imagination and the wonder of the world. I want them to live in their world, not mine, for as long as possible.


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## oyemicanto (Feb 11, 2005)

I also wanted to add that I don't feel that I "force" Santa on my kids. And I don't know how they will react when they find out he isn't real. Maybe they will be like me, and realize that we had wonderful Christmases and that my parents were so great to have gone to so much effort for us, or maybe they will be mad for the rest of their lives and have to go into therapy. I just don't know. For now, we'll take it year by year.

And this year, Santa is comin'!


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## mogit (May 4, 2004)

Count me among those who do feel a little weird talking to their dc about Santa...yet do it anyway.

I personally have wonderful, magical childhood memories about Santa. In our house, Santa filled the stockings with small treats and toys, that's all. And my parents never used Santa as a threat. I clearly remember my mother tellling me that despite what I might have heard elsewhere, Santa would bring me presents no matter how I acted! I figured out at age 7 that Santa was a myth, and I did not feel betrayed in any way; I was actually happy to be in on the story and to help keep it alive for my younger brother.

I wanted DS to have the same kind of holiday memories I have, so I told him about Santa from the time he was a toddler. I began to feel strange, though, when DS was three and started asking more and more questions. I am so open and honest with him about everything else, including his own adoption story, that going on and on about Santa as if he were a real person seemed inconsistent and jarring.

Now at four, DS has been asking very pointed questions such as How does Santa fit down the chimney? and How does he get the reindeer to fly? DS finally came right out and asked me Is Santa real? I couldn't out and out lie, so I asked DS what HE thought, and he said Yes. We left it at that. For now, DS's desire to believe has won out over his skepticism, and I am willing to play along as long as he wants.


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## scatterbrainedmom (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grahamsmom98*

((I can't believe that any adult is still carrying issues just because they found out Santa wasn't real when they were kids. Obviously, there was more lying in their childhoods beyond Christmas myths.))

I was SHATTERED. I found out when I was about 8 and cried for days. My younger sister told me in the car. It was months befor Christmas and she turned to me and said 'Santa's not real' we werent even talking about it. I sobbed and sobbed. It was very traumatic for me. But you're right, there was more than Santa lying going on.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LDSmomma6*
If you don't believe in Santa then you don't believe in giving.

 Surely you jest?







That's a pretty big blanket statement you have there. Are you suggesting that because I don't think a large man actually comes down my chimney and leaves me gifts that I am not capable of being generous? I have no problem with others thinking Santa does just that, whatever decks your halls, but I can't see how it relates to giving or not.

Quote:

Let kids have an imagination, and let them be kids. They will be teenagers and adults before you know it, and you will be sad because they aren't kids anymore.
 You are right that the time does pass very quickly, and watching my kids grow up is a touching bittersweet experience, but lying doesn't really play a part in the process for us.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetfeet*
As for it being just a myth and why ruin it? Well it isn't a myth or just playing pretend when you say that a man is going to come and leave presents and eat cookies that you sit out. That is saying that he is real and he will be there.


A lot of pretend games are played this way. As a child I played "restaurant" and my sister served me a pickle on a hotdog bun and called it a hotdog. Was she lying or were we playing? Was she really saying "THis is a REAL hotdog" just because we went though the motions?
Playing tea party often doesnt involve any real tea and crumpets. But it might involve a mini tea-set and some koolaid (or water) But is it a LIE to say it is "tea" just because there are props to keep the game going?

I agree that "insisting it is real" after the child shows doubts is lying. But playing the game up until that point is not.

Joline


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## sweetfeet (Jan 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
A lot of pretend games are played this way. As a child I played "restaurant" and my sister served me a pickle on a hotdog bun and called it a hotdog. Was she lying or were we playing? Was she really saying "THis is a REAL hotdog" just because we went though the motions?
Playing tea party often doesnt involve any real tea and crumpets. But it might involve a mini tea-set and some koolaid (or water) But is it a LIE to say it is "tea" just because there are props to keep the game going?

I agree that "insisting it is real" after the child shows doubts is lying. But playing the game up until that point is not.

Joline

Ah but I don't insist that the fake hotdog will make her full like I would say oh santa will bring real gifts. My dd has a great imagination I just think that playing the santa card isn't for my family. I don't really think that people who play the santa game are lying and damaging their children. You believe what you want to believe and my family will do the same.


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## matts_mamamama (Mar 19, 2004)

Nope. Don't consider it lying. It's magic, it's imagination, it's fun and I was certainly not scarred for life - I appreciated it more and more as I got older. The thing that bothers me the most is that some other kid is going to ruin it one day


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## OakBerry (May 24, 2005)

Nope, I have no problem with Santa/Christmas and my 3 year old. I loved Christmas as a kid and I hope he does too.


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## oyemicanto (Feb 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sdurdin*
I was SHATTERED. I found out when I was about 8 and cried for days. My younger sister told me in the car. It was months befor Christmas and she turned to me and said 'Santa's not real' we werent even talking about it. I sobbed and sobbed. It was very traumatic for me. But you're right, there was more than Santa lying going on.











that stinks!


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

We're discussing this in the GD board too....

I don't know exactly how to handle it yet. Our daughter will only be 6 months at christmas so it won't be a big deal this year or even next year. I like the idea though of doing the rituals and such, (tree, lights, stockings etc) without a whole lot of emphasis either way from us on whether santa is real or not... but I will explain about the history and how *santa* came to be, and that it is fun to pretend and imagine and go along with the magic of the holidays and whatnot -- but I feel uncomfortable telling her santa is real when he isn't. Now if she decides on her own that she wants to believe....like another pp said, I won't say "that's so silly, he is not real!" but I don't want to be the one who plants it into her head that he is real (if that makes sense).

One thing I am sure of though is that we will NEVER use santa as a manipulation tool to promote *good* behavior under the threat of not recieving any toys and such. That is just plain wrong to me...


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

was pretty traumatized by finding out that Santa didn't exist...but only because it happened in a bad way! At 5, I went to my dad and step-mom's for Christmas, and my half-sister had tons more presents than either my sister or I did. I felt so sad that Santa must have thought I was a bad kid, that I was crying to my mom after she picked me up, and she told me Santa wasn't real.








I'm so sorry - that's horrible.

I always planned on doing Santa with my kids. My parents did it with us (and they were not the "lie to kids" type), but it was never about being good or bad, just about the magic of it. And I have such wonderful memories of waking up early, and peeking around into the living room. The sheer excitment when I saw the stockings were stuffed! I was not devastated when I found out there was no Santa - my dad told me the truth when I asked. (However, when my little sister asked and he told her the truth, I thought it meant we wouldn't get any more presents, so I pulled her aside and tried to convince her that dad was lying, and that Santa was real!)

However, last year ds was 3.5 and I tried to tell him about Santa, and I couldn't even get the words out of my mouth! I was choking on them - it just felt so outrageous telling him that this person was going to come into our house and leave presents. I was shocked at how incapable I was of telling him a lie (even though I consider Santa to be a different kind of lie). So I kind of dropped it last year. I'm still not sure what to do. We go visit Santa and take pictures, but I'm thinking that I am going to go along with the whole "Santa is the spirit of giving" thing. It kind of depends on the kinds of questions I get from ds.

So for those of you who don't do Santa, how do you handle other adults telling your kids about Santa?


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## *Lisa* (Dec 19, 2002)

Quote:

A lot of pretend games are played this way. As a child I played "restaurant" and my sister served me a pickle on a hotdog bun and called it a hotdog. Was she lying or were we playing? Was she really saying "THis is a REAL hotdog" just because we went though the motions?
I think that the difference is that in this example, everybody is in on the game. Everybody playing knows that it's not really a hot dog. Santa is different (at least as done in most families) in that the kid is the only one who doesn't know that it's actually about pretending and imagination.

We don't do Santa, really. We do talk about generosity of spirit, and how some people play the "Santa game." After reading some of this thread earlier, we've been talking about the true St. Nicholas, and how we could be generous to the needy and to those we love, being Santas ourselves.

I told my daughter that some people like to play Santa, and it's fine for her to play along. I do want her to know, though, that it is a game (a fun game, but still just a game). That way when people talk to her about Santa, she can choose to play along if she wants.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Ds is kind of into Santa. I never made a point to make him a large part of our celebration - we don't do lists, cookies, and in my house we have very few gifts (usually only one or two) and they're from mama. But ds has picked up on Santa from his dad and our families and I'm really okay with that. You kind of have to be when you don't live with the other parent.







It's one of those things that I've had to let go because I really have no control over it. That's the way I handle it with other adults, too, for the most part. If they tell ds something about Santa, I generally let it pass and then talk to him about it if he wants to. If they start with the "good" and "bad" stuff, then I do what I always do when people ask him if he's been a "good boy." I say, "Of course he's a good person. He always is."

It does make me a little uncomfortable now that he's 5 and asking more questions that are difficult to answer. I want to answer honestly but do so in a way that respects his desire to continue on with the game. That's a challenge. But isn't so much about parenting?

I tend to think that the only way finding out that Santa isn't real would be devastating is if parents really abuse the idea of Santa - use the idea of him for manipulation (which speaks to a whole lot more going on in the family than Santa) and so on.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I don't think that doing the Santa thing is a lie that is harmful to kids. It's telling your kids a story. I don't point out to my kids that all the stories we read and talk about aren't real. I figure that they will discover that on their own when they get older.

*However,* I do NOT do the Santa thing with my kids. The reason is because I don't like the idea of encouraging materialism. Christmas is a secular holiday for us, anyway, and I don't want my kids to regard it merely as a time to accumulate stuff. If the Santa story were merely that Santa came and brought each child a gift, I'd be fine with it. It's the whole "Santa brings you a trillion gifts, write him a letter and ask for junk, be good or he won't give you anything" that I can't abide. I don't believe in encouraging my kids to ask for and expect certain gifts. And I want my kids to know that the gifts they do get were given out of love by their family members and friends (although we discourage gift-giving from relatives at Christmas anyway and have a one-gift-per-family-unit rule in place so that the kids aren't inundated with stuff by our very large extended family).

Right now we have Oliver and Amanda's Christmas (about the pigs) out of the library. They write letters to Santa and ask for stuff. I talked to my kids about how Santa is just a story and I asked dd, "Do you think a man dressed in red comes down our chimney and brings you things?" She said no, and I was glad. I don't mind playing along with the Santa story, but I'm not going to say he's real. The kids will know he's a story, but we can still set our milk and cookies, etc. I had agreed (reluctantly) with dh last year to do Santa, but I find that I just can't. It gives me the heebie-jeebies.

We do do the Easter Bunny, though, and will do the Tooth Fairy. They don't encourage consumerism.









Namaste!


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Wow, I'm really surprised that this is such a big issue.

We will be telling our children all about Santa, I think it's an excellent story and I still "believe" in the spirit of Christmas using Santa Claus, Father Christmas, etc as the icon.

I think the belief in Santa is one of the most special, magical aspects of being a child and I'm looking forward to passing that on to our children.

And, what's this comment about???

--------------------------------------
some white man from "the north pole"
--------------------------------------

I'm quite proud of my ancestry and heritage, so, this is really annoying AND I would never toss in someone's race as I was complaining about him or her.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Well, I am white, but I also am uncomfortable with the idea that "the spirit of giving" or whatever is consistently portrayed as a white male.

Namaste!

Ps. I read recently on an adoption listserv that a recently-adopted child, on being told the Santa story, said, "Why didn't Santa ever bring kids in Ethiopia Christmas presents?" That right there was enough to convince me forever that, all my other feelings about Santa aside, treating Santa as real is NOT for our family.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty*
And, what's this comment about???

--------------------------------------
some white man from "the north pole"
--------------------------------------

I'm quite proud of my ancestry and heritage, so, this is really annoying AND I would never toss in someone's race as I was complaining about him or her.

I made this comment in my OP and I stand by it- it was not intended to put down people from the north or white people or anything like that, so I'm sorry if you thought this. What I don't like about Santa is that he is an old white man who is portrayed as sitting in his home far, far away and determining who is good and who is bad, who gets privileges and who gets coal, who gets to be happy and who gets to wake up Christmas morning with "nothing". I think it in many ways embodies racism and white privilege in America.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

While it may not be common to see Santa's of other races, they are out there too
http://reasonstobelieve.com/Merchant...tegory_Code=AA

Santa is whoever you want him to be.
And while I see nothing about SAnta which "embodies racism and white priviledge" in America. It is true that it is a myth of northern European origin. And as such his appearance woudl primarily reflect that, as would his ties to Christmas celebrations. However because he is a myth and a spirit, he is transformable from the French "Pere Noel" to "Father Christmas" to the African American images presented in the link above. And each of these ideas of who Santa is is imbued with the ideas of the culture which give him life. And we do the same in our own familes. WHo Santa is and what he means is up to us in our own homes to determine.

I can see that any child who is raised in a different culture, be it Etheopia or any other country which doesnt practice the Santa myth would definitely have a problem with it, and it should be handled very delicately. However that is going to be the case with so many changes when a child joins a new culture. Santa is only one thing of many I am sure which doesnt make sense when applied to the life she led before. But that doesnt make the tradition a bad one.


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## rebeccalizzie (Apr 1, 2005)

Quote:

And I have such wonderful memories of waking up early, and peeking around into the living room. The sheer excitment when I saw the stockings were stuffed!
See, this is what I'm not getting. We don't do Santa, but we still do stockings and presents and all that, and DH and I do it while she's sleeping. Is the magic less for my DD because she knows DH and I are the ones filling her stocking? It's only magical when it's some guy she doesn't know instead of her parents that love her? I'd hope it is more exciting knowing your parents love you enough to do that for you, but maybe that's just me. DD was always incredibly excited on Christmas morning (when she was small--she's old enough that she wouldn't believe at this point anyway). I can't imagine her being more excited and thrilled just because someone imaginary filled her stocking instead of me. Heck, she's still incredibly excited, and so am I for that matter--I totally love Christmas.


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## Attila the Honey (Mar 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*

*However,* I do NOT do the Santa thing with my kids. The reason is because I don't like the idea of encouraging materialism. Christmas is a secular holiday for us, anyway, and I don't want my kids to regard it merely as a time to accumulate stuff. If the Santa story were merely that Santa came and brought each child a gift, I'd be fine with it. It's the whole "Santa brings you a trillion gifts, write him a letter and ask for junk, be good or he won't give you anything" that I can't abide. I don't believe in encouraging my kids to ask for and expect certain gifts. And I want my kids to know that the gifts they do get were given out of love by their family members and friends (although we discourage gift-giving from relatives at Christmas anyway and have a one-gift-per-family-unit rule in place so that the kids aren't inundated with stuff by our very large extended family).

We do do the Easter Bunny, though, and will do the Tooth Fairy. They don't encourage consumerism.









Namaste!

We do Santa but I 100% totally agree. In our family Santa just brings a stocking with very modest gifts. It was important to me that my dd knows that her family are the ones that are giving her the Xmas gifts so she could be grateful and thankful and not feel 'entitled' to scads of stuff because some magic man from the North Pole that she doesn't know decided she deserves it. We also never do the 'good/bad' thing. Last year MIL wanted to make alot of her gifts for my dd from Santa and we stopped that, quick.

This year in her stocking she will get a candy cane, some clementines, chocolate covered raisins, barrettes, and some play dress up jewelry. Maybe a small felt fairy doll if I get around to making it. That's from Santa. Everything else (not that there will be all that much - I am making her a waldorf doll, a doll sling, dh is writing and illustrating a story for her in a blank journal, and I am making her a rice filled heart to warm and take to bed with her) will come from Mama and Daddy.

Grandparents have been limited to 3 gifts. Sadly, that is a HUGE improvement. We told them they can give ONE toy, something for art (watercolors, clay, paper) and one outfit. Truth be told, the outfit it more of a present for ME! Saves me $$.









Not having a huge Xmas full of alot of STUFF is important to me, equally as important as the myth of Santa. I am 100% committed to having a simple, thoughtful and homemade Xmas while still doing the Santa thing, and I believe both can be done.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
While it may not be common to see Santa's of other races, they are out there too

Yes, but they are not out there too much, and they are clearly not the dominant image of Santa.

Quote:

Santa is whoever you want him to be.
Unfortunately I don't think that's true. Santa is whoever the dominant culture makes him.

Namaste!


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
Yes, but they are not out there too much, and they are clearly not the dominant image of Santa.

Unfortunately I don't think that's true. Santa is whoever the dominant culture makes him.

Namaste!


Well I do agree that SAnta was created by the culture and is going to reflect it. It's not really his fault. If Santa was Japanese of origin he would look Japanese in his dominant image.
All I am saying is that when families choose to practice the Santa Tradition they can modify it in any way that works for the family and it in no way has to stand for racism or materialism or any of these things.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
If Santa was Japanese of origin he would look Japanese in his dominant image.

I have to disagree. Just look at who Jesus actually was versus how he is portrayed in Western Christianity.

Quote:

All I am saying is that when families choose to practice the Santa Tradition they can modify it in any way that works for the family and it in no way has to stand for racism or materialism or any of these things.
I don't think that Santa being white is necessarily a racist thing. As you (or someone else) said, he is a Northern European creation, and his looks reflect that. He is, however, just one more highly visible cultural symbol who does not reflect what my son looks like.
But my kids are only three and two and we are already running into the dominant cultural stereotypes of Santa: he brings lots of toys, he decides who is bad or good, you can ask him for whatever you want, etc. My kids hear this from adults who ask leading questions, they hear it from other kids, they hear it from books and songs, they hear it at storytime, etc. I kinda feel like, if I have to invest a lot of energy countering the dominant image of Santa, why bother having Santa?

As far as the children in Ethiopia thing, I probably wouldn't have given that a lot of thought had I not had two kids from Ethiopia. But I do, and because of that, I'm bothered by the story of the newly-adopted girl. Just like my attitude toward how eating and meals in our house changed once I went to Ethiopia and saw what starvation looked like. It's a personal thing.

Namaste!


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## ZeldasMom (Sep 25, 2004)

Like many pp, I am all for encouraging imaginative play and do plan to have fun pretending about Santa with my children, but they will definitely know that this is just something we do for fun and that it's not real.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommaJ*
I was very angry and upset with my mother when she told me Santa was not real. She told me when I was 7ish because she could not afford any of the gifts on my list, but I was certain that Santa would bring them. She sat me down and explained the situation very nicely, but I felt so betrayed! I cried and said some mean things to her.

I had a similar experience. My parents acted like Santa was literally real. When I was about 5 my brother and I received a letter from Santa asking what we wanted for Christmas. When we wrote him back I put a lot of thought into my letter and put an item on the list for everyone in the family. Come Chistmas only my brother and I received a present, not my parents (my family did not have much money). I was very upset and did some sleuthing about and then had a big discussion with my parents about Santa. They finally told me the truth that Santa was pretend. I was shocked and sad that they had lied.

Coincidentally this happened during a period in my life when I was thinking a lot about religion. I remember performing all kinds of little experiments to see if there was such a thing as God. For example, I would close my eyes tight and say if there is a God when I open my eyes that cloud will have moved (a little egocentric of me, I know, but hey, I was 5!).

To adults it might seem silly to put God and Santa in the same category, but to my 5 year old mind they were very similar. The world can be a complicated place to figure out and I want to be as honest with my kids about it as I can. I don't think this need get in the way of having fun or being generous.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Thank you, Johub, I couldn't agree with you more.

.................................................. ............................

Yes, the origin that inspired the modern day Santa started in Northern Europe, (and there's nothing wrong with that), but today's Santa, especially in North America, is who you make of him and it's really too bad that it's interpreted as a black and white issue sometimes.

My parents are white, we didn't have much money growing up, we all worked very hard to get where we are today, we weren't "privileged" and my parents always did their best for us for Christmas, it was always magical.

So, that's why the "white man" thing really irritates me ((I hear it EVERYWHERE, so, I'm not trying to pick on one poster)), my father and my husband are white men, so, I take it very personally, as I would expect a Black person or an Asian person, or a Native Indian person to be irritated if someone were to make a remark about someone and listing THEIR race while complaining. If I were to complain, say, about Curtis Jackson and how his music is glorifying violence, I wouldn't call him a "violent black man".

Do you know what I mean?

Feel free to PM me on this, sorry for the thread drift.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rebeccalizzie*
See, this is what I'm not getting. We don't do Santa, but we still do stockings and presents and all that, and DH and I do it while she's sleeping. Is the magic less for my DD because she knows DH and I are the ones filling her stocking? It's only magical when it's some guy she doesn't know instead of her parents that love her? I'd hope it is more exciting knowing your parents love you enough to do that for you, but maybe that's just me. DD was always incredibly excited on Christmas morning (when she was small--she's old enough that she wouldn't believe at this point anyway). I can't imagine her being more excited and thrilled just because someone imaginary filled her stocking instead of me. Heck, she's still incredibly excited, and so am I for that matter--I totally love Christmas.

I can't say for sure if it would have been less exciting if I had known it was my parents, but there was definitely an element of magic to it. I still enjoyed Christmas once I knew there was no Santa (I still do







), but I guess it did lose some of that magic. But I was almost breathless and dizzy when I saw those stockings in the early dawn light. I'll never forget it.


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

I too was upset when I found out there wasn't a Santa -- I was upset that my parents had lied to me, and I wondered what else they had been lying to me about. I never quite recovered. I never trusted them the same way again.

What we will do is explain that every Christmas Eve, we pretend to be Santa and put gifts around the tree. Our daughters will help fill each other's stockings, and we will all OD on Christmas cookies and eggnog. They will play Santa along with us, hopefully keeping the secrets overnight about what the others are receiving the next morning. I envision it as being a fun, loving time, and just as fun and exciting as Christmas morning.

We can enjoy Santa, but there's no reason they have to think he's literally a real person. I don't want to ever lie to my kids.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty*
Yes, the origin that inspired the modern day Santa started in Northern Europe, (and there's nothing wrong with that), but today's Santa, especially in North America, is who you make of him and it's really too bad that it's interpreted as a black and white issue sometimes.

My parents are white, we didn't have much money growing up, we all worked very hard to get where we are today, we weren't "privileged" and my parents always did their best for us for Christmas, it was always magical.

So, that's why the "white man" thing really irritates me ((I hear it EVERYWHERE, so, I'm not trying to pick on one poster)), my father and my husband are white men, so, I take it very personally, as I would expect a Black person or an Asian person, or a Native Indian person to be irritated if someone were to make a remark about someone and listing THEIR race while complaining. If I were to complain, say, about Curtis Jackson and how his music is glorifying violence, I wouldn't call him a "violent black man".

Do you know what I mean?

Feel free to PM me on this, sorry for the thread drift.

I don't think it's thread drift at all. As I said in my OP, I feel conflicted about doing Santa because on the one hand, I feel it is tied to many of my magical childhood memories and remember how fun Santa can be, but on the other hand, I see real reasons why I do not want to perpetuate the Santa myth by pretending that he is actually REAL and that there is actually a person who comes down our chimney, etc. etc. etc. And part of the reason has to do with that idea, as I said, that this figurehead of white privilege is deciding whether or not my children deserve presents.







:

I totally disagree that "Santa is whoever you make him." When was the last time you saw a black (or other race or other culture) Santa on wrapping paper, Christmas cards, TV, cartoons, Christmas carol CDs, movies, toys, stores on the web, the grocery store, Christmas pajamas and socks, candy wrappers, stockings, or billboards? Santa most definitely is NOT whoever I want him to be. He is an image that is entirely manufactured by the white majority to fit a uniquely American myth* about him showering "good" little boys and girls with presents on Christmas morning. [*as far as I know the "St. Nicholas" myths in other cultures are not associated with the same degree of consumerism as Santa is in the U.S.]

This aspect of Santa is one of the reasons in my "con" list, although I still have a hard time imagining myself not setting out cookies and milk on Christmas Eve because it is just so tied to everything I ever thought about Christmas. I like the ideas of some other posters about telling stories about Santa while not pretending that he is a real, live person and that everything in the myth is TRUE.

Now I want to address something else in your post:

Quote:

My parents are white, we didn't have much money growing up, we all worked very hard to get where we are today, we weren't "privileged" and my parents always did their best for us for Christmas, it was always magical.
I have learned a lot as a member of MDC, and one of the top things I have learned is about white privilege. It is a term that was largely unknown to me before joining MDC and that I am really only just beginning to wrap my mind around.

In short, you may have been poor, but you most certainly WERE privileged. You are white, therefore you are in the majority, therefore, you are afforded privileges that black and Hispanic and other minority races in this country do not have.

Please read this thread:

Mahdokht's "Can we talk about privilege" thread


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Thank you, Periwinkle, for addressing the issue of white privilege more eloquently than I could have. As the adoptive mom of two kids from Africa, I am just starting to understand white privilege, and while I wanted to say something about being poor and white but not privileged, I didn't know what to say.

I'll definitely be checking out the thread you referenced!

Before this thread I knew I had nagging issues with Santa beyond the consumerist frenzy, but they were murky and ill-defined. I definitely understand them better now.

Namaste!


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## grahamsmom98 (May 15, 2002)

What do those of you that don't "do" Santa tell your children about those people that follow the tradition of Santa belief? What do your children say to their friends that still believe Santa is real? Do you tell your children that their friend's parents are lying to their children?

And, what about your parents? How have you explained to them that you aren't following this tradition?

I'm not trying to be confrontational here (it sounds like that, but it's early and I'm tired!). All of our friends with children "do" Santa, so there is no problem with anyone telling our ds the myth is just a myth at this point, or with our ds telling them something other than what they believe.

We don't do the whole "you'd-better-be-good-or-Sanat-won't-bring-you-anything" bit. That, imo, is cruel, and setting up the idea that you have to be good just to get stuff, rather than being good to simply be good! (I told you it's early, did that sentence make any sense?)

I'll check in later, I'm going back to bed.................


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

No. I do not feel strange about the Santa myth. There are so few good things and a whole lot of lack of imagination these days, that I will continue to perpetuate the Santa myth with my kids for as long as I can.


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## papapoochie (Mar 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jordmoder*
h'mmmm I don't think we're lying about santa... we say that Santa is a spirit of loving and giving, and that he has many many helpers. I think that gets away from the personification of Santa and yet maintains the idea of giving - our "Santa" sure doesn't have a list, though!

This sums it up well for me. I love telling my DS stories, including the Christmas story. He loves Rudolph, but I don't feel any need to tell him, "son, raindeer don't fly and Santa doesn't exist." That would be cruel. He's a very imaginative and creative child and to him raindeer can fly. He doesn't focus so much on the Santa Claus thing, ie, "no thanks on sitting on Santa's lap this year." NO problem. It's really about the Christmas spirit. We plan on giving an less fortunate child a gift in a hospital through a local coffee shop.

Personally, we dislike the commercialism of Christmas and downplay the gift thing. But, we also experienced great Christmas memories and want to perpetuate the SPIRIT of the birth of Christ. My mother never did the better watch out be naughty or nice thing. But she loved the presents, food and happiness the family experienced during this season.


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

*What do those of you that don't "do" Santa tell your children about those people that follow the tradition of Santa belief?*

My DS is almost 3, so he's still learning about Santa and the Santa stories. I'm telling him about the legend of Santa and that some people believe that he still exists. I've also told him that Santa has many helpers and that we are going to play Santa this year too. I plan on letting him know that some kids believe Santa is real and that is ok.

*What do your children say to their friends that still believe Santa is real? Do you tell your children that their friend's parents are lying to their children?*

I would never tell DS that a friend's parents are lying. I would just tell him that some kids like to believe that Santa still exists because it is fun. I'll compare it to playing make-believe.

*And, what about your parents? How have you explained to them that you aren't following this tradition?*

My mother thinks everything I do is crazy (BF, cloth diapers, co-sleeping) I'm sure she's used to me swimming against the current at this point. I'm hoping she'll respect my descision and move on. I should add that we are not "not doing" Santa, I am just not going to lead my DS to believe he is a real person. I'm going to focus more on telling him the legend of santa and the spirit of giving.


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## Earth Angel (Dec 13, 2004)

Our Christmas is about a LOT of things...not just Santa. My Ds gets really excited about Jesus, his birth (and his death at Easter). He gets excited to think about gift ideas for others. He gets excited to decorate the tree, put lights up outside, make cookies, and decorate them....and even to leave a few out for Santa.

That said. Dh and I have NEVER lied to Ds, not even about Santa. I want my child to trust me, and lying about anything, no matter the reason, does not go along well with achieving this goal, in my mind anyway. It has been really interesting with my oldest (5 yo). He believes in Santa in his own way. He loves to read storeis about Santa (and Jesus for that matter, along with Rudolph and anything else Christmas) and to talk about him, and ask questions about him (for example...."mamma we have a woodstove instead of a chimney...how does Santa get into our house?" "what do you think son?" "I think he comes through the window...or maybe even the door". Any time he has ever asked us if he is real, Dh and I always respond by saying "What do you think son?" (we do this with a LOT of things) and he always, with a little gleam in his eye, points to us shaking his head no that Santa isn't really real.....and saying that we are in fact Santa. So, he carries and embraces the myth but also knows the truth. And Christmas is such a magical time for him......he talks about it the whole year.

I think it is possible to tell the truth about Santa and still have a magical Christmas too......I know we do!!!!

And I also just have to say....I'm not sure what the pp who said "if you don't believe in Santa then you don't believe in giving" meant. But, being truely generous is not rooted in doing so for a reason such as santa or even Christmas. Being truely generous is giving because it is right...no matter the season. I always feel it is a shame that most people save their good deeds for one month out of the year....we should be as generous as we are in December, the whole year through


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Earth Angel*
Our Christmas is about a LOT of things...not just Santa. My Ds gets really excited about Jesus, his birth (and his death at Easter). He gets excited to think about gift ideas for others. He gets excited to decorate the tree, put lights up outside, make cookies, and decorate them....and even to leave a few out for Santa.

That said. Dh and I have NEVER lied to Ds, not even about Santa. I want my child to trust me, and lying about anything, no matter the reason, does not go along well with achieving this goal, in my mind anyway. It has been really interesting with my oldest (5 yo). He believes in Santa in his own way. He loves to read storeis about Santa (and Jesus for that matter, along with Rudolph and anything else Christmas) and to talk about him, and ask questions about him (for example...."mamma we have a woodstove instead of a chimney...how does Santa get into our house?" "what do you think son?" "I think he comes through the window...or maybe even the door". Any time he has ever asked us if he is real, Dh and I always respond by saying "What do you think son?" (we do this with a LOT of things) and he always, with a little gleam in his eye, points to us shaking his head no that Santa isn't really real.....and saying that we are in fact Santa. So, he carries and embraces the myth but also knows the truth. And Christmas is such a magical time for him......he talks about it the whole year.

I think it is possible to tell the truth about Santa and still have a magical Christmas too......I know we do!!!!

Your post is so eloquent and I think really sums up what I think we're going to do about Santa with dd and ds. It just feels right for us. I love the part about asking them what they think, when they ask you questions about Santa, etc.









Quote:

And I also just have to say....I'm not sure what the pp who said "if you don't believe in Santa then you don't believe in giving" meant. But, being truely generous is not rooted in doing so for a reason such as santa or even Christmas. Being truely generous is giving because it is right...no matter the season. I always feel it is a shame that most people save their good deeds for one month out of the year....we should be as generous as we are in December, the whole year through


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## meowmix (Jul 14, 2005)

For us, Santa existed until we moved out of the house. Sure, we knew it was my parents but it was more ritual than anything. I didn't feel lied to when I found out Santa was really my parents, and I don't remember actually confronting them about it, I just remember it kind of gradually dawning on me over the years.

For us, Santa brought the unwrapped gifts under the tree (usually the big items like bikes, etc) and my parents wrapped the gifts from them. They did this until we moved out of the house and the unwrapped gifts always appeared after we went to bed.







I liked it and we do the same for our kids. I don't feel like I am lying to them, I am not religious and so like the "magic" of christmas in the spirit of Santa. Even when I was old enough to know better, I have vivid memories (still to this day I have them as memories like they really happened) of hearing sleigh bells late xmas eve night, though I know my parents never went to that extreme to make us believers!

I think it's all about how you view it. I see something magical about xmas, my mom and I joke that one of these days we will hear the animals talk at midnight.


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## Earth Angel (Dec 13, 2004)

Quote:

Your post is so eloquent and I think really sums up what I think we're going to do about Santa with dd and ds. It just feels right for us. I love the part about asking them what they think, when they ask you questions about Santa, etc.
Aw shucks







thanks!!!









You know the "what do you think" works for a lotta things to keep the magic for children. They come up with the most amazing ideas when I ask them this in response to a question they've asked


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
Your post is so eloquent and I think really sums up what I think we're going to do about Santa with dd and ds. It just feels right for us. I love the part about asking them what they think, when they ask you questions about Santa, etc.

















This is so timely. Ds and I went to the mall today to see Santa (at his request). When we were leaving, he asked me where Santa goes when he's not at the North Pole. I said, "How do you mean? Like when he's on vacation?" And he said, "Yes." I struggled with that because he really wanted an answer but I thought that giving him a pretend answer was going too far over the line. So I said, "Well, if you were Santa, where would you go on vacation?"

That was a fun discussion.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

We don`t tell Noah that Santa is real.
He knows that Santa is a makebelieve story, about giving and generousity.

But, he has now told me that he wants to pretend that Santa is real, and that is ofcourse totally ok with me.









We do the stocking too, but we don`t tell him that it is from Santa.

It`s a little bit different her in Norway, cause we celebrate Christmas at night. Our celebration is on christmas eve. Soo, if we should insist on Santa being real, someone had to get dressed like Santa and knock on our door. Santa then comes in with is bag full of gifts, and delivers them to the children in the house. This is how almost every family in Norway does the Santa thing.

We don`t want to do this. To me this is straight out lying. To tell Noah that "no, daddy/grandpa/uncle/whoever is just in the car getting his xyz. This is Santa, coming from the Northpole" is to me lying.


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## Fiercemama (May 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
I honestly don't see how telling children that Santa is a real person, who comes to your house every Christmas and brings gifts, is not a lie







It's not true.

Just because something is not "real" does not mean that it is not true.

DH thinks Santa is a lie too. Last year I sat him down and read him "Yes Virginia, There Is a Santa Claus". It sums up my feelings perfectly.

"(Originally published in The New York Sun in 1897.) We take pleasure in answering thus prominently the communication below, expressing at the same time our great gratification that its faithful author is numbered among the friends of The Sun:

Dear Editor-I am 8 years old. Some of my little friends say there is no Santa Claus. Papa says, "If you see it in The Sun, it's so." Please tell me the truth, is there a Santa Claus?

Virginia O'Hanlon

Virginia, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men's or children's, are little. In this great universe of ours, man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus! It would be as dreary as if there were no Virginias. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The external light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

Not believe in Santa Claus! You might as well not believe in fairies. You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimneys on Christmas eve to catch Santa Claus, but even if you did not see Santa Claus coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Claus. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that's no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world.

You tear apart the baby's rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived could tear apart. Only faith, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, Virginia, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.

No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives and lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay 10 times 10,000 years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood."


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grahamsmom98*
What do those of you that don't "do" Santa tell your children about those people that follow the tradition of Santa belief? What do your children say to their friends that still believe Santa is real? Do you tell your children that their friend's parents are lying to their children?

And, what about your parents? How have you explained to them that you aren't following this tradition?

We will explain that some parents tell their kids that Santa is "real," because their parents used to tell them the same thing. We'll also tell them that it is very important for only their friend's parents to tell them the truth about Santa. We won't use the word, "lie," but if my kids do, I'll agree with them. It is lying.

Both sets of grandparents have already been informed of our decision, and both sets think the idea of the kids participating in the Christmas Eve fun is wonderful. (The kids will help set up toys for each other, help with the stockings, staying up really late and OD on cookies, etc.).


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fiercemama*
Just because something is not "real" does not mean that it is not true.

DH thinks Santa is a lie too. Last year I sat him down and read him "Yes Virginia, There Is a Santa Claus". It sums up my feelings perfectly.

"(Originally published in The New York Sun in 1897.) We take pleasure in answering thus prominently the communication below, expressing at the same time our great gratification that its faithful author is numbered among the friends of The Sun:

Dear Editor-I am 8 years old. Some of my little friends say there is no Santa Claus. Papa says, "If you see it in The Sun, it's so." Please tell me the truth, is there a Santa Claus?

Virginia O'Hanlon

Virginia, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men's or children's, are little. In this great universe of ours, man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus! It would be as dreary as if there were no Virginias. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The external light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

Not believe in Santa Claus! You might as well not believe in fairies. You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimneys on Christmas eve to catch Santa Claus, but even if you did not see Santa Claus coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Claus. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that's no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world.

You tear apart the baby's rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived could tear apart. Only faith, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, Virginia, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.

No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives and lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay 10 times 10,000 years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood."

But telling children that santa is a real person, that a guy named Santa brings them gifts on Christmas is entirely untrue. Any gifts they get come from parents, family, friends, maybe strangers- but definitely NOT a guy named Santa who lives at the North Pole and has flying reindeer. I stand by what I said- that stuff is a lie. Its not true. WE (adults) *know* that doesn't happen.
Now, the ideas that "Santa" stands for, are indeed "real" and "true." But that doesn't make it true to say that he is a real live person, that comes down your chimney.
Telling your kids that Santa is a representation of kindness and giving? Not a lie. Its not a lie to tell them that YOU believe in Santa (if you do, in whatever form), if you don't tell them "he comes to our house, on his sleigh, with gifts"

I'm not saying that its BAD to do Santa. If you do choose to tell kids Santa is a real person, and even go out of your way to eat the cookies to "prove" that he was there, it's whatever floats your boat. Its a different type of lie. A justified lie. Its not a bad thing, and I'm sure some people have wonderful memories of Santa, and are happy that their parents told them it was true.

I guess I just really don't understand how people can insist that telling kids that Santa is real (that a guy named Santa brings presents to all kids in the world, in a sleigh, with flying reindeer, and eats the cookies as proof that he was there) is telling the truth, that its not lying, or deceptive, or untrue.


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## crunchy_mama (Oct 11, 2004)

We don't do Santa here, for many reasons; I think it is incompatible with celebrating the religious aspect, I cannot lie to my child, and I don't want to put the focus of Christmas onto consumerism.

I don't/won't tell my people that child that other parents lie to them about Santa, but I am certainly not going to say he is real because other parents want to do that. This is entirely absurd and a crazy argument; those who don't believe in God, should they be obligated to tell their children that God does exist just for the benefit of children of believers?

I think it is also ridiculous to state that without Santa there isn't magic in Christmas. Besides the religious aspect; which I won't discuss as not all agree. The real magic to me is not that some fictional character could bring gifts to everyone, but that it is everyone that is the spirit of giving and caring; it is mom, dad, grandma, friends, oneself. Why would I want to portray that it has to be Santa to bring gifts, how much more wonderful that they know that it is about everyone loving one another, trying to bring something special in their life. I want the focus to be on giving, not receiving, when Santa is at the helm, it seems the focus is quite the opposite.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
But telling children that santa is a real person, that a guy named Santa brings them gifts on Christmas is entirely untrue. Any gifts they get come from parents, family, friends, maybe strangers- but definitely NOT a guy named Santa who lives at the North Pole and has flying reindeer. I stand by what I said- that stuff is a lie. Its not true. WE (adults) *know* that doesn't happen.
Now, the ideas that "Santa" stands for, are indeed "real" and "true." But that doesn't make it true to say that he is a real live person, that comes down your chimney.
Telling your kids that Santa is a representation of kindness and giving? Not a lie. Its not a lie to tell them that YOU believe in Santa (if you do, in whatever form), if you don't tell them "he comes to our house, on his sleigh, with gifts"

I'm not saying that its BAD to do Santa. If you do choose to tell kids Santa is a real person, and even go out of your way to eat the cookies to "prove" that he was there, it's whatever floats your boat. Its a different type of lie. A justified lie. Its not a bad thing, and I'm sure some people have wonderful memories of Santa, and are happy that their parents told them it was true.

I guess I just really don't understand how people can insist that telling kids that Santa is real (that a guy named Santa brings presents to all kids in the world, in a sleigh, with flying reindeer, and eats the cookies as proof that he was there) is telling the truth, that its not lying, or deceptive, or untrue.









: Well said.

Quote:

lie2 (lī)
n.
1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.
It is false that a man named Santa Claus delivers all the world's Christmas presents on Christmas night, by traveling in his sleigh pulled by reindeer that goes flying through the sky and lands on the roof and he comes down the chimney with the presents in his sack.

But this exact story is presented as being true by many, many parents.

Therefore, it is a lie.

Logic doesn't lie.


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## Jster (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fiercemama*
Just because something is not "real" does not mean that it is not true.

DH thinks Santa is a lie too. Last year I sat him down and read him "Yes Virginia, There Is a Santa Claus". It sums up my feelings perfectly.

"(Originally published in The New York Sun in 1897.) We take pleasure in answering thus prominently the communication below, expressing at the same time our great gratification that its faithful author is numbered among the friends of The Sun:

Dear Editor-I am 8 years old. Some of my little friends say there is no Santa Claus. Papa says, "If you see it in The Sun, it's so." Please tell me the truth, is there a Santa Claus?

Virginia O'Hanlon

Virginia, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men's or children's, are little. In this great universe of ours, man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus! It would be as dreary as if there were no Virginias. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The external light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

Not believe in Santa Claus! You might as well not believe in fairies. You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimneys on Christmas eve to catch Santa Claus, but even if you did not see Santa Claus coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Claus. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that's no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world.

You tear apart the baby's rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived could tear apart. Only faith, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, Virginia, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.

No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives and lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay 10 times 10,000 years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood."









thank you so much for sharing this! It really sums up how I feel, and no matter the naysayers who nitpick over details, well, I think we'll all just have to disagree. It's a matter of faith, in some ways, faith that the world is more complex than we understand. I can accept that, and when my daughters wonder about amazing, implausible, unprovable things, I'm happy to wonder with them.

I do dislike how the Santa myth has been overcome by commercialism, but to me that is not really a reason to dismiss it, just to carefully redefine it and bring it back to its roots. Just like when I work on my understanding of my Christian beliefs, and have to reconcile with how unChristian I see so many people, well, it's just something I have to teach my daughter as best I can. I don't lie to her, lying really is intentional and deceptive...I participate with her.

It's okay if others see it as lying, heck, there are lots of ways people can disagree. But I really do hope you won't imply that other people lie to their kids, even that implication is dangerous to your own child, as well as their faith and trust in the world. It's possible to follow your own view in your own family without having to condemn or comment on others. At least, I'd hope so


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fiercemama*

Dear Editor-I am 8 years old. Some of my little friends say there is no Santa Claus. Papa says, "If you see it in The Sun, it's so." Please tell me the truth, is there a Santa Claus?

Virginia O'Hanlon

Virginia, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men's or children's, are little. In this great universe of ours, man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge...

This has always REALLY bugged me. An eight-year-old child asked a question of someone she was told was an authority figure, and she expected the truth. She wasn't three, where distinguishing fantasy from reality is a fuzzy line. She wasn't five and asking the question hoping that her parents would tell her there really is a Santa even though she's beginning to suspect there isn't. She was eight, and she was asking a question. The answer given was not an answer to for an eight-year-old child, it was an answer for adults. It's a nice answer, but it completely missed the point.

Namaste!


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## Jster (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
This has always REALLY bugged me. An eight-year-old child asked a question of someone she was told was an authority figure, and she expected the truth. She wasn't three, where distinguishing fantasy from reality is a fuzzy line. She wasn't five and asking the question hoping that her parents would tell her there really is a Santa even though she's beginning to suspect there isn't. She was eight, and she was asking a question. The answer given was not an answer to for an eight-year-old child, it was an answer for adults. It's a nice answer, but it completely missed the point.

Namaste!

Hmmm, how was she not given the answer? The answer is that Santa is a matter of faith, and that just because others are skeptical, she doesn't have to follow other people's skepticism. That she can have faith in something she doesn't actually see. Seems like a perfectly good answer to me.

What really always bugs me about this (besides the equation between Santa's gifts and goodness, thereby measuring up our goodness in consumeristic ways) is that so often there is peer pressure involved to "not believe" in Santa. Why is that? Why do 8yo's go around trying to force their friends not to believe in Santa...and would we feel as comfortable if their friends were trying to force them not to believe in God? Atoms? Evolution? Why is it okay that kids do this and that adults encourage condemnation rather than acceptance of personal beliefs? I wish adults would step up to the plate more and say that regardless of whether someone believes differently than I do, or my children do, they have a right to their belief.







:


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

I play pretend with my Dd everyday. I make her cereal spoon talk to her and tell her to eat. I make the cat talk to her and tell her to "give me pets." We pretend, and pretend, and pretend. It's a magical age, and that's exactly what I remember about Santa - the magic! I'm giving my Dd the same magic.

I told her I ran into Santa at the toystore and he gave me the Advent calendar. This is sooooo thrilling to my Dd and she shares this magic with anyone who will listen.

My Dd will grow to know the difference between a lie and pretend, even if some adults have forgotten.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jster*
Hmmm, how was she not given the answer? The answer is that Santa is a matter of faith

The answer she wanted was whether or not there is a Santa Claus. There is no real man named Santa Cluas who drives a real sleigh and comes down people's chimneys. That's what she wanted to know. Not whether there is a spirit of Santa or whether people live in a skeptical age or whether it's ok to believe in Santa even when her friends don't. She wanted to know whether The Man Santa is a living being. He's not.

I remember being young and asking questions and getting what adults thought was a very meaningful philosophical answer. It just pissed me off, because I wanted a straight answer.

I can't imagine 8-year-old Virginia O'Hanlon reading that answer and thinking, "Now I know for sure!"

Namaste!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jster*
It really sums up how I feel, and no matter the naysayers who nitpick over details, well, I think we'll all just have to disagree. It's a matter of faith, in some ways, faith that the world is more complex than we understand. I can accept that, and when my daughters wonder about amazing, implausible, unprovable things, I'm happy to wonder with them.

I fail to see how it is nitpicking for me to say that *there is NO man named Santa Clause who brings us Christmas presents every year* If you tell your child that there is, then you are lying to them. That is different than telling them about the spirit of Santa, or telling them that YOU believe in Santa, or that there's no way to prove for sure that Santa doesn't exist. That stuff is all true. But you know for a fact, that Santa *the real live man* doesn't bring presents to your house. That's not a matter of faith, or an unprovable thing (like Santa simply existing). You KNOW that there is no real live person named Santa who comes to everyone's house on Dec 24. (Not you specifically, you being everyone who tells their kids Santa is real). And you're telling your child that, as if it were true.
And the difference between telling kids Santa is a real person and playing make believe with them, is what a pp said- in the latter, they are "in on the game". They know that the hot dog (from Joline's example







) is not real. They know that they won't be full after they eat it. I can hardly imagine a mother trying to prove to her kids that the hotdog was indeed real. Playing along with a child who knows that the game is make believe is different than telling them that something is TRUE when it is not, and they have no way of knowing the truth, except from you.
I'll say it again, I'm not argueing that it's good or bad to do Santa. To each his own. Even to me, it's a different type of lie. I'm just saying that I have tried, and I cannot see how it's possibly not lying to tell a child that a man comes down your chimney to bring presents.
But I'm sure you can't figure out how I and others are so adamant that it IS lying. So...lol I guess you're right. We'll just have to agree to disagree, and know that we're all doing what we feel is best for our kids.









oh, and I have to say that, because of this thread, I definitely see the difference between saying Santa is a real person, and saying that Santa is real (in spirit, or whatever). I hadn't seen that distinction before.


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## Ravin (Mar 19, 2002)

It's a GAME. Lighten up.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
The answer she wanted was whether or not there is a Santa Claus. There is no real man named Santa Cluas who drives a real sleigh and comes down people's chimneys. That's what she wanted to know. Not whether there is a spirit of Santa or whether people live in a skeptical age or whether it's ok to believe in Santa even when her friends don't. She wanted to know whether The Man Santa is a living being. He's not.

I remember being young and asking questions and getting what adults thought was a very meaningful philosophical answer. It just pissed me off, because I wanted a straight answer.

I can't imagine 8-year-old Virginia O'Hanlon reading that answer and thinking, "Now I know for sure!"

Namaste!

What we do is largly based on how we experienced Santa as a child. A better plan would be to try to respond to our children's temperments rather than our own past experience/ideology (santa is lying; santa is majic).

I think some kids are more literal, and Santa isn't going to work well for them. Some kids love ambiguity, and Santa is a wonderful experience for them (I fall into the later catagory). You clearly wanted (and still want?) strait, "ture" answers as a child. Santa wasn't a good "fit" for your temperment. Me, I LOVED (and still love) shades of gray and indetermancy. Santa was a greatfit for me and I still remember the joy of really believing in him as well as the joy of when I discovered the truth and felt let in on this big adult "secret." I loved santa and hope to do it with my kids - but if my child has a temperment not suited to ernest, adult sanctioned impossibilities, than I hope I recognize that and do the santa is a myth thing.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
You clearly wanted (and still want?) strait, "ture" answers as a child. Santa wasn't a good "fit" for your temperment.

Actually, I loved Santa as a child. I have very fond memories of sitting up, looking out the window with my sister, trying to see Rudolph's nose up in the sky as he flew by (and we always saw it, as we lived in the flightpath of an airport). I loved finding Santa beard hair stuck in our firplace gate (and we do that for our kids with Easter Bunny tail fur). I was not upset when I found out that Santa isn't real. I had a good experience with Santa as a child, and, as I posted earlier, my problems with Santa aren't that he's a lie. I don't think telling your kids there is a Santa is wrong. Scroll back to see what my problems with Santa are.

HOWEVER, Virginia O'Hanlon DID ask for a clear answer, and she got the run-around by a sentimental adult who seemed more interested in pushing his own agenda than in actually answering the child, and I find that distasteful.

Namaste!


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
The answer she wanted was whether or not there is a Santa Claus. There is no real man named Santa Cluas who drives a real sleigh and comes down people's chimneys. That's what she wanted to know. Not whether there is a spirit of Santa or whether people live in a skeptical age or whether it's ok to believe in Santa even when her friends don't. She wanted to know whether The Man Santa is a living being. He's not.

I remember being young and asking questions and getting what adults thought was a very meaningful philosophical answer. It just pissed me off, because I wanted a straight answer.

I can't imagine 8-year-old Virginia O'Hanlon reading that answer and thinking, "Now I know for sure!"

Namaste!

 Great post, and I totally agree!


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
The answer she wanted was whether or not there is a Santa Claus. There is no real man named Santa Cluas who drives a real sleigh and comes down people's chimneys. That's what she wanted to know. Not whether there is a spirit of Santa or whether people live in a skeptical age or whether it's ok to believe in Santa even when her friends don't. She wanted to know whether The Man Santa is a living being. He's not.

I remember being young and asking questions and getting what adults thought was a very meaningful philosophical answer. It just pissed me off, because I wanted a straight answer.

I can't imagine 8-year-old Virginia O'Hanlon reading that answer and thinking, "Now I know for sure!"

Namaste!

How can you say that the only thing she was concerned about was whether or not Santa was flesh and blood? Perhaps this is the exact answer she was asking for.
Not everybody wants a "straight answer" .
Not everybody even believes in "straight answers" .
eta. If it was me this is the exact type of answer which would have satisfied me most. Because of the Beauty of a gray answer I can go on beleiving until the end of time and decide truly for myself.


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild*
My Dd will grow to know the difference between a lie and pretend, even if some adults have forgotten.

Exactly.

Some people call Santa a lie. Others call him a myth. Then there are those who call him a legend. Have a think about the the common thread between these three. Usually they're grounded in truth but have been changed to suit the teller's needs. That's exactly what Santa is. It started off as a true story but has been changed.

In our home we focus on the true story of Santa - the historical story of the guy who wanted to share the message of Jesus, so dropped pennies down the chimneys of poor people.

That doesn't suit other families so they change it to a fat guy in a red suit who drives a sleigh powered by flying reindeer. That doesn't suit some other families, so they tell their children there's no such thing as Santa. Both of these can be devastating for children, but what matters is the way it's told. I had friends whose parents told them from the time they could talk that Santa got old and died. They were way more traumatised than any kids I know who found out when they were 5, 7, 9 or 11 that Santa was a magical myth their parents were perpetuating.

Santa isn't the focus at our house anyway - he's a minor part of the celebration. He brings one small present for each child. So it's not really an issue for us personally - I can understand why some people are torn by it though.


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

Or you can go for the scientific approach.

Quote:

Is There a Santa Clause?

1. No known species of reindeer that can fly. BUT there are 300,000 species of living organisms yet to be classified, and while most of these are insects and germs, this does not completely rule out flying reindeer (which only Santa has ever seen.)

2. There are 2 billion children (persons under 18) in the world. BUT since Santa doesn't (appear) to handle the Muslim, Hindu, Jewish and Buddhist children, that reduces the workload to 15% of the total-378 million according to Population Reference Bureau. At an average (census) rate of 3.5 children per household, that's 91.8 million homes. One presumes there's at least one good child in each.

3. Santa has 31 hours of Christmas to work with, thanks to the different time zones and the rotation of the earth, assuming he travels east to west (which seems logical). This works out to 822.6 visits per second. This is to say that for each Christian household with good children, Santa has 1/1000th of a second to park, hop out of the sleigh, jump down the chimney, fill the stockings, distribute the remaining presents under the tree, eat whatever snacks have been left, get back up the chimney, get back into the sleigh and move on to the next house. Assuming that each of these 91.8 million stops are evenly distributed around the earth (which, of course, we know to be false but for the purposes of our calculations we will accept),we are now talking about .78 miles per household, a total trip of 75-1/2 million miles, not counting stops to do what most of us must do at least once every 31 hours, plus feeding and etc. This means that Santa's sleigh is moving at 650 miles per second, 3,000 times the speed of sound. For purposes of comparison, the fastest man-made vehicle on earth, the Ulysses space probe, moves at a poky 27.4 miles per second-a conventional reindeer can run, tops, 15 miles per hour.

4. The payload on the sleigh adds another interesting element. Assuming that each child gets nothing more than a medium-sized lego set (2 pounds), the sleigh is carrying 321,300 tons, not counting Santa, who is invariably described as overweight. On land, conventional reindeer can pull no more than 300 pounds. Even granting that "flying reindeer" (see point #1) could pull TEN TIMES the normal amount, we cannot do the job with eight, or even nine. We need 214,200 reindeer. This increases the payload-not even counting the weight of the sleigh-to 353,430 tons. Again, for comparison-this is four times the weight of the Queen Elizabeth.

5. 353,000 tons traveling at 650 miles per second creates enormous air resistance-this will heat the reindeer up in the same fashion as spacecrafts re-entering the earth's atmosphere. The lead pair of reindeer will absorb 14.3 QUINTILLION joules of energy. Per second. Each. In short, they will burst into flame almost instantaneously, exposing the reindeer behind them, and create deafening sonic booms in their wake. The entire reindeer team will be vaporized within 4.26 thousandths of a second. Santa, meanwhile, will be subjected to centrifugal forces 17,500.06 times greater than gravity. A 250-pound Santa (which seems ludicrously slim) would be pinned to the back of his sleigh by 4,315,015 pounds of force.

In conclusion: If Santa ever DID deliver presents on Christmas Eve, he's dead now.


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:

In conclusion: If Santa ever DID deliver presents on Christmas Eve, he's dead now.








: Those 'facts'







forget that Santa is in a time warp, and he only has one small sack in which presants just keep apearing! Don't you watch 'The Santa Clause' movies?







Santa can even pull a canoe outta that sack!


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## *Lisa* (Dec 19, 2002)

Quote:

I dislike the little kids who come to school and spoil the fun for the rest because "my mommy said Santa is a lie." Now that sucks!
Um... If it's just a game, and your kids believe things whether they're real or not (e.g., Winnie the Pooh really does talk), then how does a kid coming to school saying that spoil the fun for anybody?

Would you feel any better if the kid came to school and said "My mommy said that Santa is just pretend?" This is a serious question, by the way... I wouldn't encourage my child to tell other kids either that Santa is a lie or pretend, but if the "just pretend" answer spoils things "for the rest" just the same as the "just a lie" answer, then it seems like it's well beyond a pretend game, if that makes any sense.


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joandsarah77*







: Those 'facts'







forget that Santa is in a time warp, and he only has one small sack in which presants just keep apearing! Don't you watch 'The Santa Clause' movies?







Santa can even pull a canoe outta that sack!

Ah, you got me on that one!!


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## boomingranny (Dec 11, 2003)

I don't take the "Santa is Lying" thing very seriously. My dd beleives in Santa however she has transitioned from beleiving in him literally to understanding that he is the personification of generousity and sharing during this dark cold time of year, spreading light and good cheer. She knows where the presents come from literally. She didn't suffer massive trauma - she doesn't have to go to play therapy because of this "lie", nor does she not trust me. I'm already a big teller of tall tales, and she's always had an amazing repetoire of imaginary friends. She and I are big imagination people so myths, fairy tales and fantasy are a big part of our lives. Also, the allegorical aspect of these fantasms are very instructive.

Ho ho ho

June


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

Caloi,

Great post!


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## MommytoTwo (Jun 20, 2004)

Not in the least. Santa is a myth, a story. Lighten up and let a kid enjoy Christmas.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa_and_Sarah*
Um... If it's just a game, and your kids believe things whether they're real or not (e.g., Winnie the Pooh really does talk), then how does a kid coming to school saying that spoil the fun for anybody?

Would you feel any better if the kid came to school and said "My mommy said that Santa is just pretend?" This is a serious question, by the way... I wouldn't encourage my child to tell other kids either that Santa is a lie or pretend, but if the "just pretend" answer spoils things "for the rest" just the same as the "just a lie" answer, then it seems like it's well beyond a pretend game, if that makes any sense.

I was kinda wondering that myself. If it's just a game, then why is it so detrimental for other kids to tell your kids that it's pretend? or is that not the point, and the thing that would be so awful is to have you kid told that you lied to him? (which I agree, WOULD be awful)
I would certainly NOT tell my ds that Santa is a lie, and I would go out of my way to NOT tell him that other parents are lying to their kids about it. But I will make sure he knows it's pretend, and I'll tell him not to tell that to other kids. But...that doesn't guarantee anything.
And this is a real question too. I'm not being snarky at all.


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## Jster (Apr 22, 2003)

If it was just a matter of other kids telling someone that it was pretend, or that they personally don't believe, than it would be one thing. But the problem is that so many go one step further and call it a LIE, which has a strong connotation of deception to it and also wrongfulness. I mean, what if your child went to school saying that her mom had just told her the nicest story about fairies, and she hopes she meets one someday, and the class of kids turns to her and starts yelling out, "She's a liar! There's no such thing! You're so stupid!" And I think it's clear by the people on this thread who are driven to condemn (not all, but some) that this sort of vehement denial of others beliefs is very strong. I have to say, I find it dishonorable, and I also think that it could be very harmful to my child.

Peer pressure was one of the hardest things to deal with in school, especially when people attacked my beliefs. Usually they were political/environmental, but I don't find it any different. And usually, my beliefs actually were the truth in those cases, just a truth that others' parents didn't know or didn't want them to believe as true.

I guess it comes down to the old, your rights end when they start infringing mine...


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jster*
If it was just a matter of other kids telling someone that it was pretend, or that they personally don't believe, than it would be one thing. But the problem is that so many go one step further and call it a LIE, which has a strong connotation of deception to it and also wrongfulness. I mean, what if your child went to school saying that her mom had just told her the nicest story about fairies, and she hopes she meets one someday, and the class of kids turns to her and starts yelling out, "She's a liar! There's no such mean! You're so stupid!" And I think it's clear by the people on this thread who are driven to condemn (not all, but some) that this sort of vehement denial of others beliefs is very strong. I have to say, I find it dishonorable, and I also think that it could be very harmful to my child.

I completely understand what you're saying, and I agree 100%. (It's funny because I was just thinking about this in relation to fairies lol). I personally would tell my ds that people all have different beliefs- period. If that's a belief in Santa, that's fine. It's a difference, and difference should be respected. I don't even think I would say that some parents choose to tell their kids that Santa is real, or that some parents like to pretend with their kids that Santa is real. Just that that family believes in Santa. Like we believe in faeries, or a goddess, and whatever else we believe.

I think that my discussions about the *honesty* behind Santa Claus are being taken as I'm saying that it's bad to tell kids that Santa is real. I don't mean that at all. I mean exactly what I'm saying- nothing more. Kind of like a discussion about semantics. Me saying that its untrue to say that Santa is a real man, isn't making a judgement on people who do the whole Santa thing.
I don't think its wrong to tell a child that their cat went to a nice farm with lots of friends, rather than tell them their cat died. I just wouldn't tell MY dc that, because its untrue. But I don't think its bad for someone else to tell their child that, nor would I think less of that person.

I swear, you'd like me irl


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## Jster (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
I think that my discussions about the *honesty* behind Santa Claus are being taken as I'm saying that it's bad to tell kids that Santa is real. I don't mean that at all. I mean exactly what I'm saying- nothing more. Kind of like a discussion about semantics. Me saying that its untrue to say that Santa is a real man, isn't making a judgement on people who do the whole Santa thing.
I don't think its wrong to tell a child that their cat went to a nice farm with lots of friends, rather than tell them their cat died. I just wouldn't tell MY dc that, because its untrue. But I don't think its bad for someone else to tell their child that, nor would I think less of that person.

I swear, you'd like me irl









I'm sure I would







And if our kids got together, they could swap fairy and goddess stories, it'd be fun!

And understand what you mean, too. I have a hard time with the big disconnect between the implausibleness of santa invading everyone's home on Christmas and the message of sharing with strangers out of generosity...so I try to play down that part a lot. I remember a professor of mine who shared the story of a certain group of nuns whose purpose was to "Do good and disappear" and I think that's what the real principle behind the original Santa was...the idea that someone can do good things without needing credit for it. Obviously, that got pretty corrupted!

So we do our best to balance...Just tonight, dd said to me, "Mom, we don't have a chimney! How's Santa going to get in our house?" I said, "hmmm, what do you think?" (we use that a lot around here too!) dd's reply, "Well, just make sure you leave one of the doors unlocked, he'll come in that way!"

And I totally concocted a "candy fairy" after Halloween, who would take all your extra Halloween candy and leave a present (she left a note too). But it's a worthy cause to be rid of all that junk food... Still, the candy fairy is real as could be to dd, and she's told the whole world about it.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I don't feel weird about it at all. My parents always did Santa with us. We didn't leave cookies and milk...we left an orange and a beer (guess that should have tipped me off, 'cause dad definitely loved his beer). "Santa" filled our stockings and gave us each one present. Everything else was from mom and dad. We were never, ever, ever subjected to the "Santa will come if you're a good little girl" crap.

DS1 asked me one day if the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy were real. A friend had told him that they weren't, and he wanted to know. He was...8, I think. So, I told him that they weren't real. A little later, I said something about it being less complicated now that he knew that the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus weren't real. And, he said "Santa, too?". I just assumed he'd realized that Santa fit the same mold. But, he wasn't upset at all. He still gets one gift "from Santa" every Christmas, and Santa still fills his stockings. Now, he helps us do Santa for dd. (The Tooth Fairy still gives him a loonie for his teeth, and the Easter Bunny still brings a basket every Easter.)

It's definitely an untruth, but it carried so much magic for me as a child...not the gifts, but the idea of this person flying around giving each child the perfect gift, just because he wanted to do that - and the reindeer - and the magic toy sack - just everything. When I figured it out, I was happy that mom and dad had put so much effort into maintaining the charade. I never once thought of it as them lying to me. DS1 said something similar about it. He told me he couldn't believe I'd worked so hard to "help [me] believe", and said thank you...almost made me cry.

I think every family just has to find their own way with this one.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
I think that my discussions about the *honesty* behind Santa Claus are being taken as I'm saying that it's bad to tell kids that Santa is real. I don't mean that at all. I mean exactly what I'm saying- nothing more. Kind of like a discussion about semantics. Me saying that its untrue to say that Santa is a real man, isn't making a judgement on people who do the whole Santa thing.









I get this. However I would like to point out that many of us who DO believe in Santa simultaneously have very strong values pertaining to honesty. So even though you are saying "It is lying" but NOT saying that you think it is a bad thing. THose of us who feel that lying is wrong would obviously feel somewhat put off by being told that what we are really are doing IS lying. It is US that believes lying is wrong. SO you dont have to really imply that lying is bad in order for us to feel that implication in your statement that teaching a belief in Santa is lying.
Even if you had no values about lying being wrong. By stating that this is Lying it tells those of us that believe lying is wrong that we are liars anyway (and also hypocrites)
You certainly do not MEAN to say this. I understand that. However, I do not lie to my kids. I would be very upset at being called a liar, because of my own personal value of honesty. I feel that I am not a liar. And yet, we do Santa in our home.
You are not trying to tell us that we are wrong. Just by stating it is lying, it is enough.
Joline


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Honestly is an important moral value of mine. I would never lie to my kids for any reason. My parents never lied to me - they answered all my questions respectively and fully (no diluted, watered down, "kid-friendly" answers). There were no lies of convenience or lies to sooth hurt/anxious emotions. It was the best thing they did as parents. They did Santa and we will do Santa in my home too. Santa is not a lie and is not untruthful for some families.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

108 years later, a kid asks the same question and, omce again, gets an answer that adults think is clever but really isn't an answer at all!

DEAR ABBY: I am 8 years old, and I have a question that has bothered me for months. Is Santa Claus a real person, and if not, why does everyone say he is? And if Santa Claus ISN'T real, where do all the letters go? -- CONFUSED IN KINGSTON, N.Y.
ADVERTISEMENT

DEAR CONFUSED: Santa Claus is more than a human being. Santa Claus is the living symbol of selfless giving, handed down from one generation to the next. In 1897, a girl named Virginia asked the same question in a newspaper. A very wise newspaper editor, Frank Church, wrote in reply:

"Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. ... The most real things in the world are those which neither children nor men can see. ... Thank God, he (Santa Claus) lives, and he lives forever. A thousand years from now -- nay, 10 times 10,000 years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood."

Letters to Santa Claus go where every other letter goes -- directly to the U.S. Postal Service, which makes sure the letters reach their destination regardless of "rain, hail, sleet or snow."


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## Jster (Apr 22, 2003)

I guess if it bothers you...

To me, that's a fine answer. "A living symbol of selfless giving, handed down from one generation to the next"

And yup, if you send a letter to "Santa Clause, North Pole" it will go into the postal system and go somewhere, I think there's a town that answers all of them, but I've never tried it.

I guess I know what you'd have prefered, "No, Santa is not real. He's a lie. There's no person called Santa who delivers toys. People who say that to you are just misleading you because they think you're too young to matter or because they are nostalgic about having believed in Santa when they were children. And letters to Santa go somewhere, but not to a guy in a big suit."

Would that make you happy? The thing is, it may be the TRUTH to you, but others believe a different TRUTH, that Santa is indeed a "symbol of selfless giving" that persists because people like that symbol and want to instill that value in their children and in their society. What if Dear Abby is telling the truth from her perspective? Shouldn't that matter, or should she lie (from her perspective) to meet your understanding of p.c.?

I guess I still don't understand why this issue has to be "my way or the highway" rather than "to each his own." And frankly, that makes me even MORE likely to think we need some Santa vibes around here...


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jster*
I guess I know what you'd have prefered, "No, Santa is not real. He's a lie. There's no person called Santa who delivers toys. People who say that to you are just misleading you because they think you're too young to matter or because they are nostalgic about having believed in Santa when they were children. And letters to Santa go somewhere, but not to a guy in a big suit."

Would that make you happy?

I'd prefer your question without the hostility, but I'll answer you anyway. I would prefer if Dear Abby had said,

"Santa Claus is not a real person, but that does not mean that the idea of Santa Claus doesn't exist. Parents tell their children that Santa Claus brings them gifts because children enjoy the wonder of something magical. Santa Claus is interpreted by many people as the spirit of giving, and that spirit is very real, even if Santa Claus isn't."

Btw, if you have actually read my posts in this thread, you will see that I don't have a problem with people telling their kids there is a Santa Claus. I think it's a lie, but I don't think it's a harmful lie, and my reasons for not doing Santa have nothing to do with it being a "lie."

What makes me upset is when kids ask a straightforward question and get the run-around from adults. THAT'S what makes it seem like children don't matter: when adults are more interested in protecting their own agenda than in being straightforward with a child who wants a straightforward answer,

I guess *I* don't understand why you have to be so hostile to people who dont' agree with you.


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## Jster (Apr 22, 2003)

I guess I don't feel like I'm being hostile, but instead that I'm responding to hostility. You say that Santa is a lie, and I say it is a truth from a different perspective.

Labeling is pretty darn hostile, if you ask me.

If she wants a straitforward answer, she shouldn't ask Dear Abby, who rarely gives straight answers to anyone, but rather uses literary allusions to guide understanding. But hey, you can try and squeeze a round peg into a square whole if you want to, I just see it as kind of useless, frustrating, and potentially harmful.

I feel like you don't see that there are other, equally valid perspectives that don't involve the same terms and beliefs that you hold. When you think others are lying because they see things or explain things differently, you're still looking at it from your own perspective rather than switching to another. I can understand where not being truthful in an absolute visual/real way can be seen as harmful to a child and that child's relationship with the world, but I guess I don't limit myself to the literal and the visually real, but rather take on a figurative understanding of life. There are whole hosts of things that animals can see/here/sense that we can't, there are ways that energy works that our senses can't convey to our brains, and I don't want to be limited just by what I see and touch. It's okay if others want to be literal, but to say that anyone being figurative or seeing things from another perspective is wrong, or lying, or hurtful, is in itself wrong, at least to me. So I guess, I'll stop being forthright when you stop being hostile by labeling.







:


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## boomingranny (Dec 11, 2003)

well said

when it's stated that Santa is a "lie" you are implicitly calling those of us who support santa myths as Liars...lie is a strong word and you are using it in a passive aggressive way.

June


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jster*
I guess I don't feel like I'm being hostile, but instead that I'm responding to hostility. You say that Santa is a lie, and I say it is a truth from a different perspective.

Labeling is pretty darn hostile, if you ask me.

If she wants a straitforward answer, she shouldn't ask Dear Abby, who rarely gives straight answers to anyone, but rather uses literary allusions to guide understanding. But hey, you can try and squeeze a round peg into a square whole if you want to, I just see it as kind of useless, frustrating, and potentially harmful.

I feel like you don't see that there are other, equally valid perspectives that don't involve the same terms and beliefs that you hold. When you think others are lying because they see things or explain things differently, you're still looking at it from your own perspective rather than switching to another. I can understand where not being truthful in an absolute visual/real way can be seen as harmful to a child and that child's relationship with the world, but I guess I don't limit myself to the literal and the visually real, but rather take on a figurative understanding of life. There are whole hosts of things that animals can see/here/sense that we can't, there are ways that energy works that our senses can't convey to our brains, and I don't want to be limited just by what I see and touch. It's okay if others want to be literal, but to say that anyone being figurative or seeing things from another perspective is wrong, or lying, or hurtful, is in itself wrong, at least to me. So I guess, I'll stop being forthright when you stop being hostile by labeling.







:

yes Yes Yes!
That is exactly how I feel but was unable to express. Thank you for your contribution.


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## Attached2Elijah (Jun 27, 2004)

I haven't read all the replies but for us, I don't have a problem lying to him, per se... mainly because we don't do the traditional all presents are from santa except one or two route. We are actually reverse. We do one medium size present and the stockings are from Santa and the rest are from mommy and daddy. Not so much because we don't want him to be upset when he finds out santa isn't real but because we want him to know, even when he's young, that mommy and daddy worked hard and picked out his presents with love. Over half the presents my son is getting this christmas are handmade by me, and I guess I'm seflish because I want the credit for them, lol. I made each one with my time, love and special touch... I want him to know this. But I also love watching their faces light up when they see something from Santa under the tree and in the stocking... there is just a magic to it that I love. So yes, he might be upset with me when he finds out there is no santa, but not as much as I was when I found out and was scared to death because I no longer believed, my parents wouldn't buy me presents, lol. So for me, it's not the lying that bothers me... it doesn't, it's the fact that someone else is getting credit for what we worked hard for, lol.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boomingranny*
lie is a strong word and you are using it in a passive aggressive way.

Well, I don't see how I am being passive-aggressive in calling it a lie when I have said several times on this thread that I don't think it's a bad thing to tell your kids there is a Santa. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE TELLING THEIR KIDS THERE IS A SANTA! My problem is with clever newspaper people not answering a child's clear question: Is Santa Claus a real person?

I think that all of us can agree that, whether we do Santa or not, there isn't REALLY a jolly red elf who ACTUALLY flies through the air with the aid of aerodynamic reindeer.

Frankly, I am surprised that on a website that prizes taking children seriously, when a child asks, "Is Santa Claus a real person?", so many people think it's ok to not answer straightforwardly. As my example shows, you can tell a child that Santa is not a flesh-and-blood person and still explain about the symbolic significance of Santa.

I don't care whether you tell your kids there is a Santa or not! That's not what my point is, and I am not saying you are an evil prevaricator if you do. I tell my kids that the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy are real, and I tell them that there are gomes and sprites who live in acorn houses and paint the flowers with dew. I know that those things are not empirically true, so what I am telling my kids is a lie. And I'm perfectly fine with that, so I think you are in error when you tell me I am being passive-aggressvive for using the word lie or implying that you all are liars in the worst sense of the word. However, if my kids ever ask me flat out, "Momma, are there REALLY fairies? Are they REALLY real?" I will say no. I'm just saying, when kids ask a clear question, give a clear answer. And give me the benefit of the doubt that I'm not some smug jerk looking down my noses at y'all.

Namaste!


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## Zipporah (Feb 22, 2005)

What i don't like is the implication that those parents who don't perpetuate the "myths" of Santa, the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny etc are somehow depriving their kids of the magic of childhood. Yes, to those of us who grew up with those things, we do have a fond recollection and it may be difficult for us to see that they are not necessary to a happy childhood. But if we use our imaginations (which these myths supposedly helped to develop) we would see that there is plenty of real magic in the world without these particular stories, and plenty of kids around the world have wonderful childhoods without Santa etc.; childhood is a magical state of being, a walk in the woods is bursting at the seams with magic for an unspoiled child.
I personally do feel that presenting a myth to a child as real when one does not believe it one's self is most definitely a lie. Therefore i will tell my children only the things i believe in myself, which does not preclude magic at all: i believe in magic, faeries, spirits, angels, demons, the soul of Nature and God. But i know without a doubt that there is no man in a red suit living at the North Pole with a bunch of elves who make all the toys in the world, nor is there an egg-laying rabbit who emerges from some mysterious stasis only in the spring, or a winged tooth-fetishist who sneaks into kids' rooms at night. So, despite my own nostalgia, i will not perpetuate these stories, except perhaps as a curiousity (i.e. "Some people tell this story...").


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## Earth Angel (Dec 13, 2004)

By definition, when a child asks if santa is real or not, telling them he is, is a lie. I believe the definition of a lie was already posted. As I read it no one is using the term lie in a passive aggressive way, they are simply using it the way it is defined.

In referencing a discussion of creationism vs evolution no one can really lie about that, it is an opinion...telling a child that santa is a real person...WHEN THEY ASK YOU IF HE IS OR NOT, is by definition a lie.

If that makes you feel uncomfortable, or that someone else is attacking you, then it might serve well to take a moment to see if maybe the conflict within you is what is making you feel attacked instead of putting it on the person that is simply stating a fact and nothing more. The posters have even tried to help it be understood that they are not judging the people that do reply to this question with "yes santa is real", but they are trying to say that this is in fact a false statement (thereby it is a lie)

I place a high value on honesty, My son believes in Santa, but when he asks me if he is real I have never told him "Of course son, santa is real" I ask him (as I posted earlier) "What do you think" and he takes it from there, always telling me "no mom, you and dad are santa"...smiling the whole time!!! This has not affected his "magic" at Christmas in any way. In fact he had us playing Santa's Workshop while we were wrapping gifts the other day, and he made Dh santa while his little bro, himself and I were Santa's little helpers!!









IMO to each his own. We have made our own family choices in this area and I wholeheartedly support your (collective your) right to do the same.

The thread title is "do you feel weird lying to the kids (re: santa)....so I think this is where the use of the word "lying" began in this thread, not to disrespect others, it was the question the OP wanted to talk about.

No one is saying that perpetuating the santa myth in and of itself is a lie. Instead, it is the specific issue of when a child asks "Is santa real" and the reply is "yes"....that this is a lie by definition.


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## zaksma (Mar 18, 2005)

We personally "do" Santa in our house along with the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny and I have no guilt over the presumed lie of any of that. And I have no problem with a family that choses to not "do" any of these things. I think that they are all fun parts of being a child and the fun of using for imagination. If Zachary asks me if Santa is real, then I tell him yes and we change the subject. I am not going to use the whole "Santa only brings you toys if you are a good boy" line because I think that just takes away from the story of Santa. As a child, I was never fascinated with Santa because he brought me toys, but because there was a old dude with a bunch of elves that managed to make it all the around the world to go to everyone's home. I just thought that was very cool and magical. One year, I finally figured it out on my own that Santa couldn't possibly do that and I left it there. I didn't ask my parents, my teachers, other kids. I just knew that Santa himself couldn't be real and I was cool with it.

But like I said, that is our home. I have a very close friend whose family doesn't do the Santa thing and I am fine with it. So I try to make sure that I am conscious (sp?) of that when I talk to her children about Christmas. I would never say to them "what's Santa going to bring you?" etc because I know that they don't choose to celebrate in that way and I certainly don't begrudge them that. I think that it's cool that people have such varying feelings on Christmas- I mean, I had never even heard of anyone not doing Santa until last year- the thought had never even crossed my mind. But after seeing why some people choose not to do it, I can definitely understand why they make that choice.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

I totally believed in Santa as a kid... my parents are secular, so that was pretty much the *spiritual* focus of the holiday... the magic of Santa. My parents are fairly gd, but not perfect, of course. I completely trusted that when they told me that Santa was going to come on Christmas morning, and when we went down and saw the gifts that they were from him, they were telling me the truth. Even when I was still pretending not to believe to avoid teasing in school. I was close to 12 when my parents realized I really did still believe, and it was awkward for them. I don't blame them for not handling it well, but that doesn't mean it didn't hurt. I felt so stupid for believing them for so long, and so betrayed that they would lie like that. Yes, I completely considered it a lie, regardless of whether they thought it was fun pretending or a myth or whatever. Their intentions didn't really affect how I felt.

When our first was born, we didn't think too much about how we would handle it... just that we wouldn't focus on Santa, and answer honestly. I didn't want to "ruin" Christmas for my kids just because I was weird about it. Well, ds asked me flat out if Santa was real, if he came to our house, when he was not much older than three.







So much for dodging that bullet. Like other posters have said, I couldn't even manage to choke out something to "soften" it. I told him that Santa was a fun story based on the life of a real, wonderful man who lived long ago and loved children. I have emphasized that it is a fun story that most other parents tell their children and part of the magic for them is really believing that he is true, and that it would be very rude of us to ruin that for them. Believe me, it has been hard worrying that I will be the parent of the kids who ruin Santa Claus for everyone else's kids, but I'm not willing to tell my kids something which I consider a lie just in case it comes up. But, please take careful note: I am *not* teaching my kids that parents who do Santa are lying to their kids. I have discussed how our other beliefs differ from what many other people believe, so I don't see how this is suddenly going to turn them intolerant. Though I really wasn't aware that there was that much hostility being harboured against us parents who don't participate in Santa.







For those who are worried about this, do you live in areas that have non-Christian populations of any size?

As for the kids' grandparents -- we didn't approach them about it, even though we have spent most Christmases running back and forth between the two households. They both do Santa, though it is less of a focus in dh's family. We told the kids when they asked that the grandparents do the fun story of Santa bringing the presents, and it is fun to pretend with them. If anyone has had a problem with it, they haven't mentioned it yet. Though it helps that our kids so far have been the youngest, with the exception of one pre-verbal cousin, so they weren't ruining it for anyone.

I don't think parents who do Santa are necessarily damaging their kids -- I am sure Santa can be done far more tactfully than he was done in my parents' home. I do remember fondly the fun and magic that we enjoyed before I "found out." I'm not sitting here thinking what bad parents the Santa-ers are.







But it is not for my family. I think there will be lots of wonderful memories and magical times surrounding Christmas anyway.


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## Rigama (Oct 18, 2005)

I'm 30, and there's a part of me that STILL believes in Santa. Every year I half hope that there will be a beautilfully wrapped christmas gift from Santa-just for me. And frankly, I'm not at all embarassed about that. I love that I still have some wonder left.

DS is 3.5 and we "do" Santa with him. We don't have a chimney and he asked me a few months ago how Santa would get in and I asked him "Hmm...What do you think?" He came up with the idea that he has a magical key that fits into every lock in the world. We don't do Naught/Nice...We say that Santa will bring him gifts because it makes him happy to give children things.

I don't see it as a lie, and I don't see it as damaging. To me, it's fostering a belief in the magical, the impossilbe, the wonderful. By the way, he's also convinced that there is a fairy who lives under the bush in his back yard. I'm not about to tell him that's not true. For all I know it is! Magic is what childhood is all about, and who says that allowing and encouraging a magical childhood is the same thing as lying? When he asks me if Santa is "real" I have every intention of telling him that nobody comes into the house at night and leaves presents, but that santa is real in the sense of giving "gifts" to those you love. Also, we are working on understanding that "gifts" don't have to be store bought. That a drawing, a song, home made cookies or a story are all gifts...and that giving gifts makes other people feel loved. THAT is what santa is all about.


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## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

I don't really view it as lying. But then I'm not planning on using it as a means of discipline. But rather as symbol of generosity and giving. Depending on age if she asks a direct quesion I'll probably either tell the truth or ask "what do you think?"

In the Baby Owner's Users Manual they talk about how your "unit" will think their stuffed animals are real and can talk until the age of 11 or so. I remember reading the Velveteen Rabbit and hoping I loved my animals enough that they could become real. So no, you don't need Santa or the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy to give your child a magical childhood. But I see nothing wrong in tell my child about them to encourage that magic. But then I tell her the trees are saying "Hello Sophia" when the wind blows through their leaves. So what do I know?


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Earth Angel*
By definition, when a child asks if santa is real or not, telling them he is, is a lie. I believe the definition of a lie was already posted. As I read it no one is using the term lie in a passive aggressive way, they are simply using it the way it is defined.

Not all children ask this question. When I finally was ready to let go of the Santa myth, I simply told my parents that I knew but wasn't going to tell littler kids. My Dd hasn't asked me, yet.


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## Earth Angel (Dec 13, 2004)

And I think thats totally fine.

PPs were becoming upset with another PP about being called a "liar". It just felt to me that it needed to be restated that no one is being called a liar, but, telling a child, when he or she asks specifically if Santa is real or not, that he in fact is real, is a lie by definition. It isn't anything personal, it just is what it is by definition.

Like I said....for me, I have no issues with what others choose to do or not to do regarding Santa (and many other things), but to begin to lay into another poster and tell her that she is being passive aggressive by simply stating the facts.....well, I just thought I'd give some input on that


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## Jster (Apr 22, 2003)

Sure, just the facts. All fine and good. But again, it's been pointed out on here by numerous people that Santa is a matter of faith and that belief in Santa is a matter of principle.

I don't think there has been a single poster on here who "does Santa" who said they would actively work to convince their child that the big red guy invades their home on Christmas eve to drop off presents. As most have posted, we allow a child to believe. And yes, a lot of us might hold some of that belief and wonder, as Rigama pointed out so eloquently above.

Those who insist on Santa being a "lie" are considering it only from a realist perspective and not a figurative, symbolic, or faith based perspective. To not even acknowledge that the other belief is possible and indeed valid, to insist that it's lying, is to see the world with blinders on, in my opinion.

So Catholics, when they take communion, are lying, because the bread and wine cannot possibly have transformed into the blood and body of Christ? So those who see symbols in the winds and messages in nature are lying?

Has anyone else here read, "Old Turtle and the Broken Truth"? It's a beautiful, beautiful book about the damage that can be done by the insistence that there is only one way, one view which is correct. It's a children's story where "a great truth" falls from the sky, but breaks on the way down, and at first animals find the broken "truth" which is a rock with a message on it. The each play for it a bit, but then realize it is broken so leave it alone. Finally a man comes along and picks up the "truth" and treasures it, holding it so close and dear, hoarding it in fact. He then brings it back to his group of humans, and they begin to worship the "truth" not realizing that they are only getting part of the message. Wars happen, the earth gets destroyed, and the animals appeal to old turtle to tell the people that the truth is broken. Old turtle says that they people have to be ready to accept that their truth is broken, and that the animals must wait even if it means suffering. Finally, a girl comes from the people to seek out old turtle and ask if what all the humans say is true, and that the world has always been as she knows it, with war and struggle over a "truth" held so dear. Old turtle explains that before the humans started believing in this one "truth", they recognized many smaller truths in the winds and trees, but that humans had lost the ability to notice those little truths in too much focus on the large one. Old turtle said that only when one human was able to look at another human from a different tribe, speaking a different language and wearing different clothes, and see herself, would the humans begin to accept that their truth was indeed broken. Then the girls spends some time in reflection, and listens to the wind and trees, and starts to hear the truths all around her. After awhile, Old turtle entrusts the girl with the other half of the broken "truth" and lets her bring it back to the people. When she goes back, no one recognizes her or wants to hear her message. Finally, the animals point her to the place where the broken "truth" is held high above the town, and she climbs up and puts the other piece with it. Finally, the full message is seen by the humans..."You are loved (which was the first truth) And so are they." The people slowly, slowly begin to understand, although many react with fear and anger. The idea that others might be loved, might be blessed, might have some connection to the truth is very hard to accept. But finally peace spreads, and the humans gain not just their full truth, but all the little truths.

Anytime someone tells me about Truth or Lie I can't help but think of this story. It is so beautiful and eloquent, so rich with life and love and understanding and acceptance. Everyone I know whose read it loves it, whatever their belief system. I'd suggest it be on everyone's christmas list for their kids, not only is it a great children's book but beautiful as well, with rich water colors.

There's a lot more to truth than one person's version of it. Please, let's not limit ourselves, as you can see from this thread it only spreads around hurt. Why not just accept that other people are free to hold whatever beliefs they do? Why try to label, condone, and even (as some have said) tell your children that other parents lie to their children? Why try to have a monopoly on Truth?

Oh, and Old Turtle is a woman.









ETA: I'd suggest it be on the gift lists of those who don't do Christmas, as well














no monopoly on truth to Christmas doers here, oops!


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## Earth Angel (Dec 13, 2004)

No one said that they tell their children that santa is a lie or that others that believe are liars. We have said that we are uncomfortable with one aspect of the santa myth....when it is perpetuated to children that are at whatever point in their belief about santa, asking "is he real or not". Not when they ask "we don't have a chimney, how will Santa get in"...."Do you see that light in the sky mamma, it must be rudolph".

Quote:

I fail to see how it is nitpicking for me to say that *there is NO man named Santa Clause who brings us Christmas presents every year* If you tell your child that there is, then you are lying to them. That is different than telling them about the spirit of Santa, or telling them that YOU believe in Santa, or that there's no way to prove for sure that Santa doesn't exist. That stuff is all true. But you know for a fact, that Santa *the real live man* doesn't bring presents to your house. That's not a matter of faith, or an unprovable thing (like Santa simply existing). You KNOW that there is no real live person named Santa who comes to everyone's house on Dec 24. (Not you specifically, you being everyone who tells their kids Santa is real). And you're telling your child that, as if it were true.

I think the book you cited sounds beautiful Jster. And I think it makes a very important point. Truth IS different for everyone. And that is why those of us that feel that it is untruthful to tell a child, when he or she asks if santa is real or not that he is, have made a specific point to make sure we explain that we are not calling anyone a liar, or telling our children that anyone is a liar, but instead are saying that it is this that makes US uncomfortable and so we discuss this with our children with OUR truth.

There IS wonder in everything....even in Santa. My son's spirit of giving has blossomed this year. He is on his way to school with a gift and tell, that after school will be taken to a local church to be handed out to parent's who may be feeling like they need a bit of support this year to get a gift or two under the tree. St Nicalous came to school on the 6th (this is how they do it in Germany), and my son was mystified. He even talked to Santa this year at the local craft show, but refused to sit on his lap







. But in all of this, when he asks me if Santa is real......the only thing I tell him is "what do you think son" and he answers for himself. This is where the line is drawn for me. I can not say yes to him in answer to this question. The line is drawn differently for each person.

Quote:

So Catholics, when they take communion, are lying, because the bread and wine cannot possibly have transformed into the blood and body of Christ? So those who see symbols in the winds and messages in nature are lying?
I don't know for a fact that Jesus did or did not exist or that the priest does not in fact invoke his spirit into the bread and ine served for communion. I don't know for a fact that there is not a message behind the owl that visited a friends home before the birth of her daughter, or the wale she saw breach before another of her births as not telling her her ne baby would soon arrive. I can not say beyond a shadow of a doubt, even if science tries to tell me, that the rituals my friends from the Pueblo here participate in do not create unity, or peace or bring much needed rain etc. BUT I can say, with the utmost confidence, that a big fat man does not live in the north pole for 364 days each year and then on 12/24 he comes to visit each and every house in the world and drops off presents.

Quote:

Those who insist on Santa being a "lie" are considering it only from a realist perspective and not a figurative, symbolic, or faith based perspective.
This again is not how I have read this thread. We have said that there are many things about santa that are symbolic and faith based.....but.....there is, to me, the potential for lost faith if when my child asks me if Santa is real that I tell him yes for certain he is. The other aspects of Santa, that were stated above by deva33mommy are completely available for interpretation, but Santa, himself does not enter my home.....and if there was a fat man in a red suit in my house during any time of the year ( that I did not open the door for and invite in), I'd be on the phone with the police.

Quote:

don't think there has been a single poster on here who "does Santa" who said they would actively work to convince their child that the big red guy invades their home on Christmas eve to drop off presents.
Isn't this the end result though of telling a child that Santa is a real being, instead of a spirit of the season, or a symbol of Christmas etc?

For the record. Saying these things does not mean that anyone else needs to handle the Santa thing or any other thing the way that my family does. I just felt the need to come in and say that no one that chooses to not do Santa the way he is traditionally done, is trying to ruin Christmas for anyone else, call them a liar, or teach their children that these people are liars nor are we saying that there is no mystery in the world or that there is no other truth in the world besides our own.

However you choose to celebrate during this special time of year, I hope that your celebrations are happy, wonderful and, most importantly, filled with love


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## Jster (Apr 22, 2003)

I'm sorry EarthAngel, but I don't think you get it. The point of the story was not that everyone has their own truth, but (in part) that truth cannot be owned, and no one has a monopoly on it.

The "end result" of you and others (some were much more explicit on this point) saying that other parents are pretending to their kids that Santa is real is the implication that other parents lie to their child, not that other parents and children "believe" in Santa. It'd be the same thing to say that other people pretend their is a god, or pretend that nature has a soul, etc. By putting it into the model of deception/not truth, you are forcing your child to categorize others as false, rather than accepting others as different but equally valid.

I find this dangerous.

And I will continue to disagree so long as you state that others' beliefs are not valid, and label them lies or untruthful. I'm done belaboring the point, though, because I truly think that you don't want to see it. If you want to stick with a limited "What I know is true and what others think differently must be false" mindset, that's okay. I accept you for that, too.


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## Earth Angel (Dec 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jster*
I'm sorry EarthAngel, but I don't think you get it. The point of the story was not that everyone has their own truth, but (in part) that truth cannot be owned, and no one has a monopoly on it.

The "end result" of you and others (some were much more explicit on this point) saying that other parents are pretending to their kids that Santa is real is the implication that other parents lie to their child, not that other parents and children "believe" in Santa. It'd be the same thing to say that other people pretend their is a god, or pretend that nature has a soul, etc. By putting it into the model of deception/not truth, you are forcing your child to categorize others as false, rather than accepting others as different but equally valid.

I find this dangerous.

And I will continue to disagree so long as you state that others' beliefs are not valid, and label them lies or untruthful. I'm done belaboring the point, though, because I truly think that you don't want to see it. If you want to stick with a limited "What I know is true and what others think differently must be false" mindset, that's okay. I accept you for that, too.









When I posted my last post I said to myself, no matter what anyone comes back with this time...I'm done, It just not worth it to beat a dead horse.....but I HAD to reply to this.

What I "see" you saying is that my beliefs are not as valid as yours are...in the disgusie that I am not honoring yours because I don't agree with you....you seem to not really want to "read" my statements for what they are. Acceptance works both ways. I have not called anyone a liar...I simply stated that I feel that *I* am lying if I answer a certain question a certain way because of the definition of what a lie is. I have labeled no one.

Quote:

However you choose to celebrate during this special time of year, I hope that your celebrations are happy, wonderful and, most importantly, filled with love
Does this statement not show that my "mindest" is that everyone's choice is OK? And that I am not concerning myself about what is "false" for anyone else but myself? I have a friend that does Santa up totally...letter to the north pole and all. Neither myself nor my children would EVER say anything about that to ANYONE!!!!! And, my son is not Forced to see this in the black and white way you describe....he jumps on the bandagon along with his friends, knowing that each person and their ideas has "validity" no matter what. I have not expalined it to him as you are assuming I have, telling my child that "All those people that believe in Santa are liars". This is just not how my family works....and i think it is ashame that you would assume that simply to prove your own point.

I am not here to ciritcize. The point of contention for me, is the fact that there are people asking for acceptance for their beliefs about Santa, but not providing that acceptance for those that choose to beleive in Santa differently than the "mainstream" or not at all.

Simply because I feel that I am lying to MY children by telling him Santa is real....does not mean that there aren't others that have a completely different feeling about saying that to their children. Its all OK. Its just the same as I BF/cloth diaper etc my children, but I would certainly not question others parenting choices for choosing not to....doesn't work for me, but it does for them, and that is just fine.

Quote:

But finally peace spreads, and the humans gain not just their full truth, but all the little truths.
As I read your quote of your book, it meant something different to me than it does for you....maybe if I read the whole thing that would be different....but again, am I not permitted to have my own view point with acceptance as you are seeking for your self? It doesn't mean I don't "get it" it means I "get it" differently. Isn't that OK? I sure think it is.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jster*
It'd be the same thing to say that other people pretend their is a god, or pretend that nature has a soul, etc.

I disagree. Unless the parents believe that Santa will be arriving as well.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brisen*
I disagree. Unless the parents believe that Santa will be arriving as well.

But here even it is implied that only the literal truth is true. Cannot it be true that Santa symbolicly arrives or figuratively arrives?

I agree with the PP that it is just as disrespectful of others beliefs to say "some people pretend Santa exists" as to say "some people pretend Jesus is god" or whatever.

Just because it can be proven that Santa does not arrive by sled in a LITERAL sense, (just as it can be proven that the bread does not become the actual BODY of Christ, as is the actual belief in holy communion. ) A priest does not claim to invoke the spirit of Christ into the bread/ and wine. He claims to actually transform them into the actual body and blood of Christ. (which is the primary difference between Catholic and Protestant communion).
Both of these things, when taken literally, can equally be called false.
However when it comes to matters of faith, the literal truth is inadequate to explain the Truth.

So to mark everythign that cannot be proven true in a literal sense as false is to ignore all of the other paths to truth. And also to disrespect the nature of faith and belief.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I'm not sure why people are so upset that others might tell their kids that what other people believe is not true. There are plenty of things that other people believe that I don't, and I tell my kids that. I don't think it is disrespectful of me to say that "Some people believe that there is a god and that he was the father of a man named Jesus, but we don't believe that," and I don't think that it is disrespectful of me to tell my kids, "Some people believe that the state should be allowed to kill people in punishment for their crimes, but we don't believe that," and I don't think that it is disrespectful of me to say, "Some people believe that there is a Santa Claus who climbs down chimneys and leaves toys for children, but we don't believe that."

If I told my kids, "Some people believe in Jesus being the son of god, in capital punishment, and in Santa Claus, and those people are stupid," that would be a problem. But people can respect other's beliefs while still not holding them as true. I am a vegetarian in a world of omnivores, so you'd better believe that I know about teaching my kids my beliefs while still equipping them to respect the beliefs of others. I believe that telling a child who has asked whether Santa Claus is a flesh and blood man that he is is a lie. But I can respect that other people don't have to hold my view, believe the same things I believe, or live the way I live. When I am told that merely voicing my view is a problem, I find _that_ dangerous.

I don't think that, just because someone says, "Dharmamama and her family believe that there was a man named Siddhartha Gautama who achieved enlightenment and became a Buddha, but we don't believe that is true," that person is calling me a liar any more than I am calling them a liar by saying that I don't believe that there is a god who created everything according to the Bible's narration.

Namaste!


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I'm not sure why people are so upset that others might tell their kids that what other people believe is not true. There are plenty of things that other people believe that I don't, and I tell my kids that. I don't think it is disrespectful of me to say that "Some people believe that there is a god and that he was the father of a man named Jesus, but we don't believe that," and I don't think that it is disrespectful of me to tell my kids, "Some people believe that the state should be allowed to kill people in punishment for their crimes, but we don't believe that," and I don't think that it is disrespectful of me to say, "Some people believe that there is a Santa Claus who climbs down chimneys and leaves toys for children, but we don't believe that."

If I told my kids, "Some people believe in Jesus being the son of god, in capital punishment, and in Santa Claus, and those people are stupid," that would be a problem. But people can respect other's beliefs while still not holding them as true. I am a vegetarian in a world of omnivores, so you'd better believe that I know about teaching my kids my beliefs while still equipping them to respect the beliefs of others. I believe that telling a child who has asked whether Santa Claus is a flesh and blood man that he is is a lie. But I can respect that other people don't have to hold my view, believe the same things I believe, or live the way I live. When I am told that merely voicing my view is a problem, I find _that_ dangerous.

I don't think that, just because someone says, "Dharmamama and her family believe that there was a man named Siddhartha Gautama who achieved enlightenment and became a Buddha, but we don't believe that is true," that person is calling me a liar any more than I am calling them a liar by saying that I don't believe that there is a god who created everything according to the Bible's narration.

Namaste!

I think we all agree with this.
The problem is not sharing somebody believes x and you dont.
The problem is saying somebody believes x and its a lie, or they are wrong.


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## Earth Angel (Dec 13, 2004)

Quote:

The problem is saying somebody believes x and its a lie, or they are wrong.
And as far as my reading of this thread.....no one ever said that this is what they tell their children....or anyone else for that matter.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
The problem is saying somebody believes x and its a lie, or they are wrong.

Then I guess it's all semantics, because to me, "We don't believe that" is just a gentle way of saying, "That's wrong."

And I am perfectly fine with my kids knowing that others can be wrong and still be treasured friends and loved ones or even complete strangers who are equally deserving of respect and compassion.

But this Santa things is not really about matters of faith or right or wrong in the eyes of others. It's about whether we really and truly believe what we tell our children. If you *actually* believe that a flesh-and-blood man named Santa Claus slides down your chimney and leaves gifts for your children, then you are not lying if you tell your kids that, regardless of whether other people believe that happens or not. But if you tell your kids that Santa is a real, flesh-and-blood man (or elf) and that he slides down your chimney and leaves gifts, but you don't *actually* believe that happens, then you are lying.

And it's not about me labeling. It's about the perpetration of something that you yourself believe is false as a truth to your children.

Namaste!


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:

But here even it is implied that only the literal truth is true. Cannot it be true that Santa symbolicly arrives or figuratively arrives?
I don't think anything I have said contradicts this... I'm really talking about the practise of going to elabourate lengths to ensure that my children believe that a man really deposited gifts under the tree, when I know that, in fact, I was the one who did it. I see that as being far removed from seeing Santa as a symbol of giving, charity, what have you. And if parents want that for their kids, I'm not saying they shouldn't do it. I am just trying to draw a line between teaching your kids something you literally believe in and teaching them something you don't literally believe in. I see a difference.

When I teach my kids about my faith, I believe what I am telling them to be true. Not in a figurative sense. I might use symbolism to teach concepts, but that's not the same. I would guess that 99% of parents who teach their kids about Santa *in the literal sense* DON'T believe it to be true. Not literally. That is where I see a difference.

I think dharmamamas post sums it up nicely, so I don't know why I bothered with my post....


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

Symbolic thinking comes after literal thinking. So... I teach Simon that I believe in Santa Clause. I tell him the typical stories. I truly do believe in Santa Clause (not true, using this for an example), and tell him so. What I believe in is not what he is hearing and not how he is interpreting what I say. He is interpreting me as telling him that I belive in the literal Santa Clause. I think that those who do not make it explicit that it is a MYTH/pretend story, and who go along with or otherwise fuel the child's belief are lying to the child so long as s/he knows that they are talking about two quite different things: the literal story of white-beard who drops off presents and a mythological story about generosity.

I think there is something strange about saying that one thinks that a myth is true. The meaning behind a myth may be important and a true sentiment (e.g., that generosity is good), but myths themselves are not usually referred to as true or false (at least not how I'm used to language being used). It is the message in the myth that one believes in, not the myth itself. If the latter were the case, I don't think it would be a myth b/c it would then be taken literally. I feel as though saying that one does believe in Santa (because one fully accepts the meaning behind the myth) is a way of mixing words to explain why one feels it is o.k. to lie to one's child. To say that it isn't a lie because generosity and concern for poor people and so on and so forth are good ideals just doesn't make sense to me. Who doesn't believe in these values? Sure, the myth may be a good way to present the values (if told differently than how it is usually told), but that doesn't make it true. It's a myth. (That it's origin is said to be based on a real person does not make it any less of a myth -- and I don't fully see how those who are giving their children presents in the spirit of Santa Clause are really doing so when their children don't want for anything.)

I enjoyed Santa as a child though as far back as I can remember I felt weird about it and, when I figured out that it is a lie, I did take it as such and wonder what else adults lie about (with God as my main comparison). For the most part, while my mom put a lot of effort into promoting Santa (and I don't recall threats, but they were probably there), it didn't leave much of an impression either way. Ditto with the other typical lies, e.g., the easter bunny and the tooth fairy. One thing I do remember fondly is running through the house following clues on Easter Sunday. Each clue would lead to a small present and another clue. I didn't care who left these clues. I recognized that the writing was my mom's. I just thought that the game, and finding little presents (but mostly the game) was a riot. We plan to do things like that for Simon and to do awe-inspiring things with him. We plan to surprise him (and any sibling that he has) with special "just because we love you" days in which he'd get a much-wanted present and we'd do lots of fun things. Waking up to an ordinary day to find balloons and banners all about, a special present that you've been wanting really badly, all your favourite foods, and a day full of fun and love with mom and dad... that would be something to remember.

Back to Santa. This year I'm finding myself a bit appalled by the story. It seems materialistic. I don't like the one-sided nature of it. Santa spends a year making toys to give to children for Christmas and, at best, he gets food at every single house he goes to (hungry guy, I guess!). This happens year after year. The chlidren he gives toys to are, for the most part, not destitute. Far from it. They're getting many other presents too and already have lots of toys/things. So is he really generous? Why not spend the time, effort, and resources giving more to those who need a decent roof over their heads, food in their bellies, medicine? I think the beauty of the original story is giving something special to a child for whom it would be a unique and amazing gift, i.e., to a child who is so poor that toys are few and far between. I never really felt that Santa was generous to me. I just got my loot and it was the same as any other present that I recieved. I often wrote up lists of items that I didn't care whether I'd get or not because there was nothing in particular that I really wanted. I'd also add items to the list that I only had a fleeting fancy for. Knowing what they were under the tree (from snooping!), I'd feel stupid since I didn't want that item anymore and knew that it was a total waste of money. Yet... I had to pretend to be glad to get it so as to not hurt my parent's feelings or come off as unappreciative or as asking from the "wrong" things.

I mentioned my feeling that the story is one-sided to dh and he responded that usually, the child's good behaviour is taken as compensation for the presents. Lovely.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

I look at the intent. If the intent is to "deceive" -- then it is lying. If the intent is to delight the child is some of the magic of childhood in a positive way -- that to me is not lying -- it is some of the best things about childhood that I would never want to deny my children. Santa is a wonderful man who lives in the North Pole and brings gifts to children on Xmas eve . . .
I love it!


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

I think there is needless resistance to the word "lie." If there are exceptions in which it is fine to lie -- and I'm not really bothered by those who choose to tell their children that Santa is real -- than what is the problem with calling it a lie? It seems a more honest, or at least more believable, position to say that this lie is o.k. than to argue that it is not a lie.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dal*
I think there is needless resistance to the word "lie." If there are exceptions in which it is fine to lie -- and I'm not really bothered by those who choose to tell their children that Santa is real -- than what is the problem with calling it a lie? It seems a more honest, or at least more believable, position to say that this lie is o.k. than to argue that it is not a lie.

So not only is Santa a lie. But saying he is not a lie is another lie to boot.
I Do have big issues with the word "lie".
Myths, stories, traditions, religions, belief in the unseen are such beautiful wonderful amazing things that really enrich life IMO.
To bring them down to the common denominator "lie" is really quite appalling to me.

And kudos to the PP who mentioned that to some the whole manger scene is myth too. But some people genuinely believe it to be literally true.
There is no hard and fast line which determines what is and is not true in the world. We all just draw that line for ourselves.
I respect that some people dont believe in Santa.
Oh and I never once used the words "flesh and blood" or even "real" when telling my children about Santa. Just wanted to make that clear.

And the final point. I agree that very young children do not have the ability to think symbolically, however they are usually at that point when they start to figure out the whole Santa thing, so I dont really think it matters that they understand the story to be literal before they are capable of understanding it to be symbolic and figurative.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

H Johub! Long time. And I totally agree. These things are "enriching" (as you so eloquently put it) -- and the word lie is a "negative" word - and these things are not negative - thus the word "lie" is inappropriate.


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## Rigama (Oct 18, 2005)

I wonder how many other "Santa-ers" are feeling bullied? I'm sure this isn't intentional, but it seems like the point will be driven until we all wave white flags, hang our head in shame and say "Yes, we LIE to our children. We know that no jolly guy from the north pole will leave gifts for our kids, and we fully acknowledge the we are, infact, acting to our kid's emotional detriment." But that's not gonna happen, at least not from me. Yes, we do Santa. Yes my son believes he really lives at the North Pole and flies around the world on an overloaded sleigh. And yes, I'm okay with his belief. Call it a "lie" if you will. Frankly, there are times when it IS appropriate to lie to a kid. I don't believe I'm lying about santa, but sure I've lied about other things...

When our house got broken into 2 times in 3 months, DS wanted to know if the "bad men" would come back. I told him I don't think so. That was a lie. I was convinced that they would come back right after Christmas. But I wasn't about to load that on my then 2 year old.

He saw me balancing the checkbook and asked how much money we have. I told him "Enough that you don't worry". Another LIE. I didn't know where groceries were going to come from, but again that's not his responsibility.

So I know that the response will be "Yeah, but those lies were told in order to protect him from a harsh and frightening reality" but the thing I'm hearing is that it's just wrong to lie to a kid. Period. And the way I see it, I am protecting him by allowing a belief in Santa. I'm protecting his innocence, his belief that there is alturism in the world, his belief in wonder and magic and joy. For a few short years of his life my son is untainted by worry, doubt and negativity and yes I allow him to believe in something that's "Physically Untrue" in order to protect those beautiful childhood qualities.


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## boomingranny (Dec 11, 2003)

another definition of lie is "a statement to deceive or pervert the truth". Own up to the implicit, negative pejorative connotation of the word "lie". There is slant here by some of the PPs that "oh, we're not calling you liars, it's just a lie that you told your kid, so what's the big deal? lying isn't bad, per se". That emphasis is deceptive. Just say "you're a liar" and stop beating around the bush already. "truth" is almost always a relative concept and an individual definition based on one's own perception.

June


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## 5796 (Oct 19, 2002)

I think I'm just an echo to some of the other moms... but for me I kind of don't mind this lie.

It is not going to last that long. My DS knows so much truth, few fantasies.. it is nice to just let him be 4 and have this little pretend story. He'll be old enough soon enough and have the cold hard fact pretty quickly. Especially since I"m sure his playmates know the truth and will spill the beans, I predict by next year.

by the way..for those of you who like to keep the mystery alive and really want to help... We have Mothers in Need (MINS) here at MDC. And if you ahve some gently used toys or clothes.. THEY NEED THEM for the christmas.

here's the link to the GUI needed....

http://www.spatulagirl.com/gentlyused.htm

and click on my sig for the thread where we are taking care of MINS and their families who do try to keep a little of fantasy alive. Frankly, when a child is cold and hungry a little fantasy might help...

thanks


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I lie to my kids. I am a lying liar and proud of it! If someone called me a liar because I tell my kids that the Winter Fairy sprinkles snow that was made by the Snow Fairies and that fairies paint the spots on ladybugs, they'd be 100% correct.

So who cares? The point of this discussion, for me, is not whether we are bad people for perverting the truth. The only reason I was ever really interested in this thread was because I think the Yes Virginia thing and the Dear Abby thing are disrespectful to children NOT because these children are passive recipients of a non-literal story but because they are active seekers of facts and they are being brushed off in favor of some adult feeling sappy and clever.

If you want to be offended that I, personally, think you're a liar for perverting the truth to your kids, then by all means, be offended. But I'm a liar too, so I guess we're all in good company.










Namaste!

Ps. This thread IS called "Do you feel weird *lying* to the kids," so I'm think it was established from the start that this would be a discussion about ... lying.


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## insomniamama (Jun 30, 2004)

Santa Clause and his elves have a real importance whether you believe in seeing them, or not. When we experiment with believing in imaginary things, we explore the unseen world, the sublime world of forces and energies that affect all of us in ways that we are usually unaware of.

So as we nurture this part of our mind, we are developing skills of awareness, nurturing faith in the unseen worlds beyond that which we can see (worlds beyond ours, included) and that magic that can be found in the unlikeliest places. I think this is powerful fuel for imagining unseen possibilities and solutions to problems, building creative thinking, and the ability to grasp intangible thought.

I think the debate will be fun when my (4 year old nd 1 year-old) kids are older. I'll probably just respond, "WHY NOT? How do you _really_ know there's no such thing?


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## Earth Angel (Dec 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insomniamama*
Santa Clause and his elves have a real importance whether you believe in seeing them, or not. When we experiment with believing in imaginary things, we explore the unseen world, the sublime world of forces and energies that affect all of us in ways that we are usually unaware of.

So as we nurture this part of our mind, we are developing skills of awareness, nurturing faith in the unseen worlds beyond that which we can see (worlds beyond ours, included) and that magic that can be found in the unlikeliest places. I think this is powerful fuel for imagining unseen possibilities and solutions to problems, building creative thinking, and the ability to grasp intangible thought.

I think the debate will be fun when my (4 year old nd 1 year-old) kids are older. I'll probably just respond, "WHY NOT? How do you _really_ know there's no such thing?


I believe this to be true about a LOT Of things in this life. BUT...not when "I" am the one "being" the fairy, the gnome, the nature spirit, Santa etc.


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## BookGoddess (Nov 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insomniamama*
Santa Clause and his elves have a real importance whether you believe in seeing them, or not. When we experiment with believing in imaginary things, we explore the unseen world, the sublime world of forces and energies that affect all of us in ways that we are usually unaware of.

So as we nurture this part of our mind, we are developing skills of awareness, nurturing faith in the unseen worlds beyond that which we can see (worlds beyond ours, included) and that magic that can be found in the unlikeliest places. I think this is powerful fuel for imagining unseen possibilities and solutions to problems, building creative thinking, and the ability to grasp intangible thought.

I think the debate will be fun when my (4 year old nd 1 year-old) kids are older. I'll probably just respond, "WHY NOT? How do you _really_ know there's no such thing?











Our daughter is far from knowing who Santa is but when she is of age we will tell her about Santa Claus. I would hope that I would do a good enough job as a parent that when the time came to transition her from youthful innocence to healthy skepticism that she'll do so with ease. If she is traumatized from the knowledge that Santa is a mythical being then I haven't done a very good job as her parent.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Just coming back to read new posts since I last read this thread and post an update.

I now have absolutely NO idea how I could even pretend that Santa is real at this point.







So I guess our issues are solved. Dd and ds (3 1/2) see packages coming to the door every day - they know they are Christmas presents sent from out of town relatives (um, which is all of our relatives







) - it sure was easier to hide that when families all lived in the same town and Internet shopping didn't exist. Because about 90% of their presents are arriving by mail.

Then, I took them to the toy store individually to pick out a present for their siblings and cousins. I thought it was a really important thing to do, very in line with our values, etc., and far from being a traumatizing experience (think: preschooler in a toy store wanting everything in sight) it was very fun and they took a lot of thought to pick out the gifts for others.

And let's not even mention the 18 million Santa Clauses they have seen in the past 2 weeks - outside of stores, in the grocery store, driving a car(!) next to us. It's kind of getting ridiculous.

So I think we will tell stories about Santa Claus but not lie to them outright that there is actual truth in the stories. We will celebrate the myth as a myth.

Anyway, this thread has been really helpful to me (and dh) at figuring out how we want to handle this issue.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
Just coming back to read new posts since I last read this thread and post an update.

I now have absolutely NO idea how I could even pretend that Santa is real at this point.







So I guess our issues are solved. Dd and ds (3 1/2) see packages coming to the door every day - they know they are Christmas presents sent from out of town relatives (um, which is all of our relatives







) - it sure was easier to hide that when families all lived in the same town and Internet shopping didn't exist. Because about 90% of their presents are arriving by mail.

Then, I took them to the toy store individually to pick out a present for their siblings and cousins. I thought it was a really important thing to do, very in line with our values, etc., and far from being a traumatizing experience (think: preschooler in a toy store wanting everything in sight) it was very fun and they took a lot of thought to pick out the gifts for others.










THis is how it works for families who do Santa too. Presents from Grandma in the mail are still presents from Grandma. Presents for each other are still from each other. But there is simply an additional gift giver who fills the stockings and brings their gift on Christmas eve. Santa is not by all means the ONLY gift giver.
We have a fun time taking our kids to the store to pick out gifts for their siblings too. (And for our Adopt a Family or whatever organization we are shopping for)
I respect that you choose not to do Santa. But the above situation does not preclude Santa either.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I still believe in Santa, emotionally. My best friend made me a stocking a few years ago. My ex and I had split up after 15 years. It was going to be Christmas with just ds1, and I had no stocking. For some reason, not having a stocking was upsetting me a lot. I'd always had one, and getting up Christmas morning without one just bummed me out. So, I was whining to my friend about it.

She made me up a stocking. She and her boyfriend were going to leave it at my house Christmas Eve, ring the doorbell and bolt. Unfortunately, they both came down with some horrible stomach bug, and she had to give it to me on Boxing Day. But...if I'd opened the door on Christmas Eve, and found a stocking sitting there, the unknown person who made it would have been Santa. That was her intent.

We still have a gift under the tree from Santa some years. Someone will find a gift for someone and for some reason, decided it's a "Santa" gift. DH got a stuffed moose a couple of years ago (he loves moose). It was a little 8" Chritmas moose, and he'd already had his gifts...then I found one box that said "To James, From Santa". To this day, we don't know who gave him the moose (although I think it was my mom). So, I don't feel weird telling my kids about Santa, because he's still alive and well in my family.


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