# Why not spanking ?



## Jarynsmom2006 (Aug 1, 2012)

I haven't been here for a while and I know I will probably get slammed for even asking this but .... Why is everyone totally against spanking for discipline ? Just curious on everyone's views and opinions.

Thanks


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## heatherdeg (Dec 30, 2003)

I don't equate spanking with discipline. I can discipline my kids without spanking them.

I am a GD convert so I remember the days when I didn't think it was the worst thing to spank your kid. Now, I really do. In my heart of hearts. I hadn't really been in a position to spank my child very OFTEN so it wasn't really "in my face". We did a lot of redirection, etc. and so it wasn't a common event. We had plenty to turn to first, but spanking wasn't off the table.

But then life got stressful and the kids got upset and misbehaved way more and my patience was nil and the incidents happened more. And I really saw that they were emotionally hurt when I did it. Not in a manipulative way, but really, really hurt.

Well, their behavior got to be SO bad that I read a book that pointed out that kids act based on one of two emotions: love and fear. When you look at it that way, you realize that you're hitting them when they're scared. Wow.

Once I overhauled my view on the whole thing, my kids behaviors changed. Fast. In a good way. And I quickly realized that the spanking was more about my own lack of patience and my own inability to put my kids feelings and emotional well-being first. But then, I didn't see their negative behaviors as fear-based (because they're not obviously fear-based) I saw them as vengeful, manipulative or angry.

And then I saw something somewhere (a photo meme or something) that pointed out that if my kid were older, doing it would be illegal; and for me, I really wanted to respect my child as a person. A little person. And I wanted them to respect themselves as little people. I can't do that if I treat them like... well, I don't know what I would have in my life that I would hit and it would be a productive thing.

That's my perspective.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Spanking isn't discipline, it is a reaction to frustration, anger, and/or lack of better ways to deal with a situation. Hitting because you don't know what else to do teaches kids nothing except to hit when they don't know what else to do. It isn't a punishment that tends to be used right away so it tends to be done so it typically either takes away any incentive for a child to behave or is used on a child no longer misbehaving. It is something many parents don't want to actually follow through with so kids learn to only listen when there think their parent will actually follow through. I prefer a gentler and more effective approach that can be used consistently without feeling squeemish about following through.


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## Vancouver Mommy (Aug 15, 2007)

I'm just curious to know why you're asking?


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## Jarynsmom2006 (Aug 1, 2012)

Thanks for the response ... I am just trying to figure out the right path with my son. He just turned 6 in April. His father and I have been separated since he was 2. We haven't had the best relationship since, we have tried to get along and do what is right for my son, however some things have hindered that and gotten in the way. For the first 2 yrs, I didn't require his father to pay child support, but finally got to the point where I Had to have help. I was working a full time job as well as a part time and he was paying Nothing, and I never kept our son from spending time with him because my main concern since the day I found out I was pregnant has been my son and what is best for him ( well at least what I feel is best ). Long story short, when he was served with child support papers, he filed for full custody a week later, stating I was physically abusive to my child which was so far from the truth. Yes I believe in spanking, but it was rarely practiced then. He was the one from the start that said he would be spanked and I leaned more toward the other methods /forms. However he had met a new woman who happened to be getting her masters in child psychology and I strongly believe it was suggested by her how to raise our son. I work as a 911 dispatcher and work swing shifts, I have since he was 6 months old, instead of daycare , my parents have kept him and have had a huge part in raising him. Fast forward to today. Father is now married to the female and they now have an 8 month old little boy. He doesn't communicate very well with me in some parenting issues, instead sends "messages" thru my 6 yo as to what he and her think is not good or how things should be handled. My son is starting to become a tad more headstrong and more argumentative than he use to be. He isn't bad by any means, but I don't want it to get to that point either. I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall with him going back and forth between 3 places and so many different forms of discipline :/


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## LexiDrewMama (Nov 29, 2011)

I was raised by a mother who spanked me quite often. I never learned anything from those spankings, but I did fear her. A child should never fear a parent. I have always felt that raising a child with respect and kindness teaches respect and kindness. Violence teaches violence. Once I was grown and my mother and I had developed a working relationship we were able to talk about the spanking and she regrets it... I don't want that for me or for my daughter.


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## Jarynsmom2006 (Aug 1, 2012)

I have been around several kids who were disciplined both ways , spanking and just talking/explaining ect. and quite frankly the children who were spanked were more well behaved. It seems as tho the ones disciplined by other forms walked all over their parents. The parents called them "high spirited" etc , I personally disagree with the explanation. The other post was part of why I am asking , and like I said , just trying to get several opinions and viewpoints on it.


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## Jarynsmom2006 (Aug 1, 2012)

I guess it's mostly a matter of opinion. My husband now was disciplined "old school" so to speak, his father spanked him quite frequently , and his 6 brothers and sisters. They have all turned out to be good people. My husband is a police officer and has been for 15 yrs now. His viewpoint now is that he has more respect for his dad than anyone else he knows because he taught him right from wrong ...


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

I think there is a long continuum with smacking on one end and permissive parenting or no discipline at all on the other end. We do not hit our child and my DH and his former wife did not hit their now 30yo who is a delightful woman.

We choose not to hit for several reasons

-. We see it as a human rights issue, it's not ok to hit adults therefore there's no reason why it's ok to hit children

- smacking relies on fear to achieve its effect and we don't want to develop our relationship based on fear

- there is some evidence to show that, for some people, it has long term consequences in terms of depression and/or anxiety disorders later in life

- there is also some evidence to show that it isn't a very effective form of disciPline anyway and just encourages children to hide their actions to avoid punishment

We only have a 2yo so our strategies won't be the same as for an older child but we try to tailor what we do to her level of development. So, for the moment it is distraction and redirection and empathising when we have to say no. We try to create an environment where we don't have to say no too often but she doesn't walk all over us. We don't allow her to destroy things, write on walls or eat ice cream three a day. All of which she has wanted to do at various times


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## Mama2mc (Sep 7, 2010)

My parents did, and they were extremely abusive, but no one knew. Outsiders thought we were the perfect family, but my mother spanked even for what she imagined others could have thought about me, I was never safe. I couldn't get out of there fast enough. Today, I have no contact with my parents, would be overjoyed if I never saw them again, and I do my best to keep my children safely away from them. There is NO WAY I'm doing the same to my kids. By the way, DH is also against spanking, but that doesn't mean we're letting them walk all over us.


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

It may be helpful if you look at things not as a "me versus him" situation, but see the child as a human being worthy of respect, just because he is. Not because he behaves in an appropriate way, or because he conforms to some standards of behaviour. If you see him as doing his best to please you, but sometimes lacks the means. For example, ds teases dd; my first reaction would be to yell: "how many times have I told you etc. etc. !!" But then I realize it's snack time and they are acting up because they might be hungry.

I believe spanking works with many children (in the sense that it stops unwanted behaviour) in the moment, but at what cost! It affects the child's self-confidence, trust in the parent, the relationship between the two. And there are other ways to discipline (not punish), which are more work, but worth it.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

"It's not okay to hit."

How can I teach my child that very important lesson, if I cant even abide by it myself?


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> "It's not okay to hit."
> 
> How can I teach my child that very important lesson, if I cant even abide by it myself?


I love this.


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## McGucks (Nov 27, 2010)

I have never spanked either of my children or hit them in any way (I make this distinction because I know plenty of parents who say "Oh, I would never hit my kids...but I do spank them.") A spank, by definition, is a hit.

Other posters have made lots of good points that I won't reiterate, but as a public school teacher, I have sat through lots of child abuse prevention plays where a group does a presentation about "good touches and bad touches." Oftentimes, the big message is that nobody should touch any of your body that is covered by a bathing suit (ie: genitals and breasts). Yet, many people think it's just fine to spank on the bottom. Quite a paradox.

I don't spank because it's not fair for big people to hit little people. I don't spank because hitting is not okay. I don't spank because it's mean and bullying. I don't spank because I don't learn rules better by being hit, so why would I think doing it to somebody half my size was a good idea or an effective teaching strategy?

Think about this: if a husband said he spanked his wife once in a while, but only when she really needed it, would you think that was okay? Of course not.

It's a human rights issue.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jarynsmom2006*
> 
> I have been around several kids who were disciplined both ways , spanking and just talking/explaining ect. and quite frankly the children who were spanked were more well behaved. It seems as tho the ones disciplined by other forms walked all over their parents. The parents called them "high spirited" etc , I personally disagree with the explanation. The other post was part of why I am asking , and like I said , just trying to get several opinions and viewpoints on it.


I will posit that the kids that you've been around are behaving because there is an adult there and they are behaving in order to avoid being spanked. I would say a better assessment would be when the kids were around just other kids with no adults around (which is difficult to assess without hidden cameras, lol) - how do they act THEN?

It depends on your goals. If you want an obedient child who doesn't misbehave in public and doesn't challenge anything you say, then maybe spanking is the way to go (though I've never really heard of a kid spanked only once in their lifetime, so I am dubious of how much it "works" anyway). I don't want that. I want kids who are going to think about things, and decide right from wrong on their own, and not be afraid to negotiate or argue back in the face of something they think is wrong. That means that they're going to test me, because they have to practice somewhere. I may complain about it, but in the end it's really what I want. I don't want obedient children who grow up into obedient adults (or rebellious adults from backlash). I want thinking children who grow up to be thinking adults. For instance - my kiddo, who is not always terrifcally behaved, twice in school last year stood up for other kids who were being harrassed when teachers weren't watching - stood right up to classmates and defended the other kids. THAT is the kid I want. And if that means they sometimes stand up to me, or don't listen to me every single time, then so be it. I'll take being obnoxious sometimes to get that.

FWIW, I don't consider all spanking abusive. I think it's a lousy (and sometimes creepy) way to parent, but I think there is a definite difference between garden variety spanking and beating. I don't agree with either, but think one needs a parent to learn better techniques, and the other needs the parents to go to jail.

My kids are 6 and 8. They challenge me a lot of the time. They are not perfect, and neither am I. As they mature, they are more civilized in public. It is, in fact, working out like it was "supposed to", though sometimes in the heat of a challenging moment I wonder if it is worth it. I'll tell you: IT IS.


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## dkorovikov (Jul 24, 2012)

[deleted]


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

For me, it just never felt right. I just couldn't spank her. She's grown now, and I made this decision before the internet, and before it was "popular".

I've never had any problems using a more casual discipline with her. I made things accessible to her so she was successful without help. I allowed her to make mistakes and hurt herself. She had lots of freedom to explore and learn things the hard way.

She could do something wrong or bad, and not have a consequence as long as she could figure out how to fix what she did.

I have a daycare in my home, so, I also had seven other kids here at the same time, and I have never used time out, or spanking or anything. (I have lost my cool and had meltdowns before though..i'm not perfect)

Anyway, I wasn't really spanked as a kid, and I turned out OK, so it just felt unnatural to spank someone else.


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## artekah (Apr 26, 2009)

To expand on what dkorovikov said about how research does NOT support the use of spanking, and actually shows that it's damaging, here is an excellent, to-the-point research report: http://www.phoenixchildrens.com/PDFs/principles_and_practices-of_effective_discipline.pdf

I second what others said about spanking does NOT equal more discipline, and the lack of spanking does NOT indicate permissiveness. I think spanking is the lazy way out. I believe most people have the urge (especially if they were spanked themselves) because, yeah, kids can make you feel rage--no surprise there! But acting out your rage on someone smaller/weaker is irresponsible, and makes you a poor role model. It's mean. It doesn't actually help anything, just hurts everyone involved.

It makes me happy that you are asking this question and thinking it through! So many people never even stop to question the patterns they've been taught, kwim?


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## Mama Soltera (Dec 13, 2009)

It's teaching them that it's okay to hit people when you don't like what they're doing. It promotes violence. It also teaches them that it's okay for people touch them in ways that hurt them. It also creates too much confusion. (It's only okay to hit smaller people than you but not people your same size or bigger. Hitting family is okay but not people outside the family.) With my kids, I tell them it's only okay when it's truly in self-defense. Also, if you hit your kids, you really do lose a lot of trust and respect that they could have had in you. It's just not worth it.


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## Mama Soltera (Dec 13, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mama Soltera*
> 
> It's teaching them that it's okay to hit people when you don't like what they're doing. It promotes violence. It also teaches them that it's okay for people touch them in ways that hurt them. It also creates too much confusion. (It's only okay to hit smaller people than you but not people your same size or bigger. Hitting family is okay but not people outside the family.) With my kids, I tell them it's only okay when it's truly in self-defense. Also, if you hit your kids, you really do lose a lot of trust and respect that they could have had in you. It's just not worth it.


Oops! I must've hit quote instead of edit. Sorry!


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## Jarynsmom2006 (Aug 1, 2012)

Thanks for all the replies ... and thank you for not attacking me lol. I have been told before I'm crazy or irresponsible ... I breastfed my son until he self weaned, he was 2. Ex's family thought I was nuts to go past 8 months. I was accused of being negligent because I refused to have him vaccinated, this is actually being used against me in the court issue actually. Anyway I know I'm not nor will I ever be a perfect parent, no one is. I just want to look at all options on every subject and go from there which I feel is best. There are several good points on here and I hope no one thought I meant people who don't spank their kids raise brats who are unruly, I was speaking from the few experiences. I just don't know what to do honestly. It's so hard with him going back and forth and I work swing shifts, 12 hrs. I have so much on my plate it seems and sometimes I just wanna crawl in a hole and get away because I feel incompetent. I want to do what's best for my son obviously. I guess maybe I'm just overwhelmed right now with work , we just moved into a new place abt a month ago and court is coming up. I feel like I TOO often take my frustrations out on my son, not spanking, but yelling then I feel like a total jerk afterwards







. Being a mother much less a single mother is NOT easy for sure !!!


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## Mama Soltera (Dec 13, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jarynsmom2006*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I hear you. Do you post in the single mother's forum at all? It can be really helpful. We all (single or not) have bad parenting moments. Don't be too hard on yourself about it.

I can tell you that consistency (as far as discipline and dealing with your children goes) can be a lot of work at first, but it makes for so much less work (and happier, better behaved children) in the long run. I have a feeling the cases you are referring to were families where no discipline (aka permissive parenting) was being used.

Best of luck to you.


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## hippiemombian (Jun 5, 2011)

I have a friend that was physically abused as a child. Do you think she ever acted out in public or challenged her father? Heck no! She was terrified of him, so on the outside I'm sure it looked like she was a "well behaved child."

There was a time when I used to spank my oldest DD. I didn't know any better and just didn't know what to do. But one time after spanking her I lost it. I sobbed and sobbed because I felt like a terrible person. The look she gave me as she ran off to her room was the most heartbreaking thing I have ever seen. I vowed to never put my hands on my kids like that again, and I haven't.

I spent hours upon hours reading and figuring out ways to do things differently. I am so glad that I did. I wasn't easy and definitely not what was "normal" to me, but I did it because my children are worth it.

Also, as an adult, its not okay for me to hit someone because I am mad at something they did. I would go to jail because it's assault. Why is it okay to hit your kids?


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hippiemombian*
> 
> Also, as an adult, its not okay for me to hit someone because I am mad at something they did. I would go to jail because it's assault. Why is it okay to hit your kids?


This. Exactly.

Why is it that when a grown person hits someone their same age/size it's called assault (whether the person deserved it or not) but when a grown person hits a child it's called discipline? That has never made sense to me. It really bugs me when people talk about it being their "right" to spank, because I dont have the "right" to haul off an hit another adult no matter what. You can't legally physically assault anyone other than your child for any reason- even if they are terrible people.


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## Mama Soltera (Dec 13, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hippiemombian*
> 
> I have a friend that was physically abused as a child. Do you think she ever acted out in public or challenged her father? Heck no! She was terrified of him, so on the outside I'm sure it looked like she was a "well behaved child."


This is so true and I know from personal experience.


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## crystal_buffaloe (Apr 30, 2010)

I agree with a lot of what prior posters have said.

Before I had DD (2 years old now), I knew that we wouldn't spank, but I didn't feel particularly strongly about it. DH and I were both spanked as small children, we both have good relationships with our parents. In particular, I think my mom was/is an excellent parent, so that colored my perspective. While from my reading and observation of my friends and family (some spank and some don't) and kids around me, it really didn't seem like the best parenting tactic and thus was not something I wanted to do myself, it wasn't like spanking was something that was bad -- it was just that GD would be better.

After I had her, I really cannot imagine hitting her in any way -- like before I didn't feel strongly about it, but now I seriously cannot wrap my head around it. And she's challenging, believe me. It would just feel so wrong on a gut level. I'm not sure if I'm expressing this very well at all, but more than anecdotes or research or parenting books or what my friends and family are doing or anything else, what it really boils down to for me is that feeling. I cannot look at her and think spanking is something I should do.

What's particularly sticky is that hitting is our biggest behavior challenge. I suppose this is inborn behavior







She'd never watched TV, never been to daycare, as far as I know (and I think I can be really pretty sure) she had never seen anyone hit anyone else ever, and yet we went through a rough patch of her hitting us and the dog and every once in a while another kid







that started pretty early -- like 14 months. It peaked, and she's mostly stopped, but we still do have to deal with it occasionally, and it really is not okay to hit, and it's especially not okay to hit those smaller than you. I think that goes for me as well as for DD.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> This. Exactly.
> 
> Why is it that when a grown person hits someone their same age/size it's called assault (whether the person deserved it or not) but when a grown person hits a child it's called discipline? That has never made sense to me. It really bugs me when people talk about it being their "right" to spank, because I dont have the "right" to haul off an hit another adult no matter what. You can't legally physically assault anyone other than your child for any reason- even if they are terrible people.


Yep. Would you slap a friend who was having a bad day? No way!

Quiet your child, remove them from the public eye and stop any destructive behaviors by putting yourself between them and whatever it was they were doing. There's time-outs.....distraction and all kinds of ways to make your kid behave better if you have any creativity at all. Folks who spank tend to have just one tool in their parenting toolbox.


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## Attached Mama (Dec 4, 2005)

As a psychology doctoral student and single mother I can relate to this question on a number of levels.

I was raised in an atmosphere in which spanking was the only way to correct a child. I have never hit my child and never will. I always thought I would raise her as I had been raised until I was pregnant with her and so protective of what I ate, etc to ensure she was growing strong and healthy. At that point I had a paradigm shift. How could I ever cause physical harm to this child?

There have been many, many excellent comments here. I also find it to be a human rights issue. Why is it illegal to hit adults but not illegal to hit children? Interestingly, the US is one of the only UN nations to not ratify the UN Rights of the Child.... In many nations hitting children has been outlawed.

I disagree that it is a matter of opinion. The pscychological research finds that spanking leads to anxiety, rewires the brain to be stressed and anxious, leads to worse behavior espec in "problem" children, leads to children using physical violence as a means to solve problems and more. Of course occasional spanking might be mediated by other more positive behaviors but that does not mean it has no negative affect at all. The simple fact that a child is being physically harmed by a parent who says they love them - and often that the hitting/harmful discipline is equated with being a loving parent - is sending harmful psychological messages.

As for behavior. I would far rather my child misbehave in front of me so that I can see where her character and development are really at than for her to be afraid of me. That being said, there is no reason for kids to "walk all over" a parent that does not spank. Unfortunately spanking is usually compared with the absolute opposite extreme of permissive parenting. There is a very wide and diverse range of positive parenting techniques in the middle!

My mom gave me a horrible time for not spanking - until she noticed that my sister's kids who are spanked acted terribly when my sister was too pregnant to keep up with spankign them. When kids act out of fear they don't necessarily internalize the moral or charater messages (such as we don't hit). Instead they obey only to avoid punishment.

One thing that has not been mentioned but for which there is extensive anecdotal evidence are the sexual side affects of spanking. There are a growing number of people coming "out of the closet" speaking up about how they were sexually stimulated as children through being hit on the buttocks. For some, this trauma has ruined their adult sex lives.

Two side comments: it is common for children around 6 or 7 to become more outspoken as your son is. Secondly it is developmentally normal for kids around age 2 to hit. Kids that age do not have the impulse control to stop and say "Oh wait, I need to use my words instead!" Sometimes hitting is a way to get attention; other times it is a way to express frustration. My daughter did this as did all of my friend's children - and not one of us spanks. We just consistently picked them up immediately and said "We do not hit!" Then "Would you like a turn with that toy?" or whatever it appears that the child wanted. Then we would help the child to say please or whatever. With consistency of this at the 2 year or so mark it is eventually ingrained and the hitting gives way to courteous children.

Depending on your state and county, the spanking and vax could be deal breakers on keeping custody so do your research! I wish you the best!


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jarynsmom2006*
> 
> Thanks for all the replies ... and thank you for not attacking me lol. I have been told before I'm crazy or irresponsible ... I breastfed my son until he self weaned, he was 2. Ex's family thought I was nuts to go past 8 months. I was accused of being negligent because I refused to have him vaccinated, this is actually being used against me in the court issue actually. Anyway I know I'm not nor will I ever be a perfect parent, no one is. I just want to look at all options on every subject and go from there which I feel is best. There are several good points on here and I hope no one thought I meant people who don't spank their kids raise brats who are unruly, I was speaking from the few experiences. I just don't know what to do honestly. It's so hard with him going back and forth and I work swing shifts, 12 hrs. I have so much on my plate it seems and sometimes I just wanna crawl in a hole and get away because I feel incompetent. I want to do what's best for my son obviously. I guess maybe I'm just overwhelmed right now with work , we just moved into a new place abt a month ago and court is coming up. I feel like I TOO often take my frustrations out on my son, not spanking, but yelling then I feel like a total jerk afterwards
> 
> ...


Hang in there, Mama! You're going to make it!!

I guess for me, I view resorting to violence of any kind as uncivilized and cruel. The reason why I don't hit my children, or anyone, is because I am an adult and should be expected to control myself and my anger. That's all.

As for the behaviour thing, your mileage can vary from family to family! My parents never spanked their children and always had well behaved kids, and we were all quiet and over achievers in school. On the other hand, you can end up with unruly kids, too! So I guess it has nothing much to do with the spanking and much more to do with who you end up with.


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## sageowl (Nov 16, 2010)

I don't believe in spanking for several reasons:

1. It's not very effective. As a child, I didn't view it as a particularly effective deterrent. I learned far more from the natural consequences of my actions, than the spankings I received. All spanking really did for me is inform me that my parents were really really angry.

2. I know from experience that you can accomplish discipline without every laying hands on a child. There are a lot of other ways to elicit the kind of behavior you want without harming anyone mentally or physically in the process. Daycare workers and teachers cannot rely on physical means of correction, but are able to manage entire classrooms full of children.

3. Like most forms of punishment, kids get desensitized after awhile, and you have to "up the ante". Progressing any further down that road takes you very clearly over the line.

4. Natural consequences of behavior are very effective teachers for most people. After all, we learn from our mistakes. Random manufactured consequences (like spanking) are less effective at teaching.

5. You can compell respect, or earn it legitimately. You can earn the respect of your children without having to demand it through violence...and as some other posters have mentioned, this kind of "respect" evaporated as soon as they were out of their parents' houses. I personally would like to have the respect of my child for life, not just the 18 years we're legally required to spend quality time together.

6. For people who have been relying on physical punishment as a primary form of discipline, adolescence gets real interesting...because suddenly their children as strong as they are.

7. It takes a clear head to do discipline well. If I am mentally in a place where I feel like I want to hit and yell, I know that I'm not in a "thinking" place, and therefore should pause before doing anything else.

8. I think of discipline (whether at home, or in the classroom) as an opportunity for teaching and modeling good problem solving skills (aka learning opportunities). By the time we reach adulthood, most of us have figured out that there are more and less effective ways of getting our needs met. And most "behavior" that you see in kids is really just an inefficient or immature way of trying to get a need met. So when you start getting unwanted behavior (hitting, arguing, yelling, whining, etc), it's an ideal time to teach a child that there are better ways of accomplishing things. However, if your first reaction is to "punish the behavior", you lose the valuable opportunity to teach the child a more proactive way of accomplishing what he or she really needs or wants in the first place.


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## Peggy O'Mara (Nov 19, 2001)

You're right that spanking does result in immediate compliance, but it also results in a lot of negative consequences like depression, mood disorders, and increased aggression. A new study on physical punishment and mental disorders just came out recently.

Most of us spank because it was done to us or because we don't know what else to do. I wrote a blog recently about alternatives to spanking that helped me when I gave up spanking.


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## Lulu0910 (Feb 6, 2012)

As a child I was spanked often with a hand, belt, the absolute worse a long thing rubber tube that thanks to my brother mysteriously disappeared. If I(we) made too much noise, the wind

blew the wrong way, bad grade, it rained outside and we hung up our clothes in the bathroom. Anything she construed as being defiant. If she felt that we didn't learn our lesson the first time she made the beatings were intense. What did I learn from all of this?????? How to NEVER go to her for anything. I never feared her I hated her (still do.) I never learned any lesson but what I did learn is whenever anyone yells, argues that something bad will happen. As an adult I completely shut down when yelled at, I can't argue with my DH I'm literally paralyzed in fear that I will say whatever he wants to hear to stop him. When people are angry bad things happen.

As a mother I struggle each and everyday to not hit my DS. When I feel that rage I completely stop, walk away or say words like "Mommy is not happy right now." All to stop that feeling of hitting my sweet sweet DS.

What I've learned is that it's ok to be frusterated/angry/upset by your LO. They don't know any better they are learning. Never take anything they do personally. We constantly have to teach them. They will never ever be perfect little angels. Toddler's misbehave it's a part of life.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Here's my take: pain avoidance is just that, pain avoidance. Mice and rats modify their behavior to avoid pain, but that is the only reason for their behavior modification. Humans are living beings and do much the same thing. The problem with spanking or any other sort of physical punishment that induces pain is that it doesn't teach morals or a value system. Behavior modification via physical punishment works in the short term because people are afraid of pain.

Case in point, I was spanked and belted as a child. What I learned to do was sneak around so I wouldn't get caught. I learned to lie better, be more stealth in my indiscretions. No one talked to me or had any kind of heart-to-heart on why what I was doing was wrong. I simply got punished. So I simply learned to avoid punishment by lying more, avoiding people, etc. My only goal was to escape pain, because pain was the only consequence. I had no moral compass until much later in life.

I didn't turn out "good" because I was spanked, I turned out good because there were people along the way (other than punitive parents) who made me realize that there is a whole moral arena out there that requires one to be "good" because it is the right thing to do, not because doing bad will result in punishment. I hope that makes sense.


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## To-Fu (May 23, 2007)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Peggy O'Mara*
> 
> You're right that spanking does result in immediate compliance, but it also results in a lot of negative consequences like depression, mood disorders, and increased aggression. A new study on physical punishment and mental disorders just came out recently.
> 
> Most of us spank because it was done to us or because we don't know what else to do. I wrote a blog recently about alternatives to spanking that helped me when I gave up spanking.


I was just coming here to share a link to that study.

I also think that spanking is a form of bullying and it completely severs the attachment between parent and child, so it's not "just" the considerable damage to the child's psyche. If you're an attachment parent, if you're all about nurturing the connection with your kids that will one day enable them to be well-adjusted, autonomous human beings... then spanking is the opposite of that.

Here's a good quote from the High Needs Attachment Blog about that:

Quote:



> The use or threat of physical punishment will heighten alarm in the child, and thereby increase defendedness. A child who is continually in a state of alarm will erect a multitude of defenses against these feelings, and will become developmentally stuck. For development to occur, a child needs to feel secure and at rest - both of which will not take root in a highly punitive environment.


And here's a bit from Parentmap that synthesizes Elizabeth Pantley and Alfie Kohn's views on spanking:

Quote:



> Spanking is also ineffective discipline, according to Elizabeth Pantley, author of _The No-Cry Discipline Solution_. "Hitting a child typically immediately stops a behavior because of shock, fear or pain. But most children turn around and repeat the same behavior - sometimes even the same day!" More importantly, Pantley says, "Spanking does nothing to teach a child to develop inner discipline. A child's focus is on the spanking itself, not on a review of the behavior that led to it."
> 
> According to Pantley, spanking teaches children who are frustrated and don't know how to handle a problem that the solution is to hit someone. For parents of preschoolers who try to prevent their children from hitting, this can be a confusing message.
> 
> Both Pantley and Kohn agree that the most important reason to avoid spanking is because spanking gets in the way of a healthy parent-child relationship. "Children look up to their parents as protectors, teachers and guides," says Pantley. "When a parent breaks that pattern by hitting a child, the relationship suffers."


I think the evidence is overwhelmingly against creating a punitive, fear-based environment for our children. And certainly it is counterintuitive to hit our children if we are trying to foster attachment/connection and teach them lessons about how to handle mistakes and big feelings.

There's also something to be said for treating kids like actual human beings. I always ask myself: "Would I do this (hit/speak this way/punish/etc.) to my grandma?" If the answer is no, then I don't do it to my kids, either.

I think a lot of parenting is really about mastering our own emotions, and it's been the hardest part for me for sure. It's trial by fire and it's intense--but it's up to us to model how to handle feelings and mistakes and "bad" behavior. What are we teaching our children if we hit them when we don't like how they are acting? We have to find another way. (Peggy's link about alternatives to spanking is a good starting place. Be wary of the time-out! Some experts say it's worse than spanking in many ways.)


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *yurika47*
> 
> I have to say, this is such a fascinating conversation... although I'm not hearing much in the way of support for spanking. I'm curious if there are any mamas out there who think its ok.
> 
> As for me, I was most certainly spanked as a child but in addition to spanking my parents were big on making sure that I understood that my actions had consequences (whether positive or negative). After every spanking (that I can remember at least) my parents sat me down to talk about what had happened and why I had been spanked and to reassure me that they loved me. On the flip side, they did their best to praise me when I did something responsible. And as I grew I was probably one of the more responsible among my friends. I'm sure more of that had to do with the talks we had but I can't completely dismiss spanking as part of an effective parenting strategy in my childhood. I think every family and every child is different and there is no one solution to every situation. That said, I'm not certain I would actually spank my child and not because I think it's a horrible thing to do but more because I'd rather focus on other types of behavior modification.


would you support a husband hitting his wife? What if she deserved it? What if he told her he loved her afterwards?

What about hitting a disabled person? What if this was the only way they learned to behave appropriately?

This was acceptable in Western societies not long ago. Still is in some parts of the world.

Children deserve the same respect as other members of society. They shouldn't have to earn their right to physical integrity by behaving in a certain way.


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## mleawicks (Feb 4, 2012)

i think its most important what ever you do to follow thru. i will use time out and spank onlywhen life threat...like running into RD.


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## marsupial-mom (Feb 3, 2010)

Spanking is violent. I don't want or need to be violent with my children.

Studies show that spanking is no more effective than other methods of discipline. If its not more effective then why do it?


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## puddle (Aug 30, 2007)

I don't have much to add to what the PPs have already said, so I'll just share my own experience.

I was spanked as a child. I was very well-behaved and compliant. So, I guess, it "worked." It also taught me several important lessons:

1. Whatever you do, don't get caught.

2. Your parents are not on your side. Don't trust them. Communicate as little as possible with them.

3. You and your siblings need protection from your parents. You can try to protect them, but you will fail.

I was very compliant until I left for college. I never did anything my parents would think was wrong unless I was absolutely certain I wouldn't get caught. When I went away for college, I was no longer afraid of them. They had no idea how to parent me once they could no longer threaten and control me, because it was the only tool they had. And when I needed help, they were the last people I would have considered talking to because there was no trust in the relationship. I knew they loved me, but I felt like we had an adversarial relationship. I want a very different relationship with my children.


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## To-Fu (May 23, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *puddle*
> 
> I don't have much to add to what the PPs have already said, so I'll just share my own experience.
> 
> ...


This is very well put! I have similar feelings toward my various parents. It is not how I want my own children to feel.

I really don't think there is any situation that calls for spanking. For me or for anyone else. It feels like a human rights issue. I would stand up for anyone being bullied by someone bigger and stronger. We are everything to our children. They are helpless and vulnerable--please don't hit them. There is no reason. There are so many better tools at our disposal. Behavior modification is a dated concept, anyway, and no one wants to live in a punitive environment.

I haven't read yet one good reason to ever hit a child, which is, I think, because THERE ISN'T ONE. Especially not if you call yourself an attachment parent.

*Yurika47*, you probably won't find a lot of support for spanking here. Traditionally, Mothering speaks out against things like crying it out and physical punishment.

*mleawicks*, why hit a child that's already scared after doing something unsafe?


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *To-Fu*
> 
> I haven't read yet one good reason to ever hit a child, which is, I think, because THERE ISN'T ONE. Especially not if you call yourself an attachment parent.


Yup. Typically, parent hit because they've lost their temper and dont feel like they have control over the situation. It seems like they hit, and then they justify it by calling it discipline,because they cant say "I made a really bad decision and hit my kid and there was no reason for my behavior."


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## Lulu0910 (Feb 6, 2012)

I've thought about this since reading this thread and a few more comments.

Spanking is very popular among the Baby boomer generation. As a child I remember in public when a child misbehaves it was common

practice to smack them. In fact the other momma's would give you dirty looks till you silenced your child.

A generation that condoned "Children should be seen but not heard." Translation a baby boomer would beat the living daylights out of you

if you so much as breath the wrong way.

So baby boomers condoned spanking it was their norm.

My generation Y banned it! Made it an offense if anyone mother so much as laid a hand on their LO. Instant jail, child taken away, dcfs.

I'm not saying all baby boomers are bad. From the baby boomers that I grew up around i.e Mother, her friends, aunts, etc. Spanking was their standard

practice of discipline.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

To be fair, most gen x-ers dont spank either. Where is this info coming from as far as "banning". Here in KY it is not illegal to spank your kid as long as you are not "causing death, serious physical injury, disfigurement, extreme pain, or extreme mental distress."

Here is a list of the laws state-by-state:

http://kidjacked.com/legal/spanking_law.asp


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## Lulu0910 (Feb 6, 2012)

Adaline'sMama wrote:

To be fair, most gen x-ers dont spank either. Where is this info coming from as far as "banning". Here in KY it is not illegal to spank your kid as long as you are not "causing death, serious physical injury, disfigurement, extreme pain, or extreme mental distress."

Here is a list of the laws state-by-state:

http://kidjacked.com/legal/spanking_law.asp

FYI: Google "States that banned spanking"

http://blog.sfgate.com/sfmoms/2011/06/23/a-texas-judge-declares-spanking-a-child-a-crime/


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lulu0910*
> 
> FYI: Google "States that banned spanking"
> 
> http://blog.sfgate.com/sfmoms/2011/06/23/a-texas-judge-declares-spanking-a-child-a-crime/


Based on the article you cited, spanking still appears to be legal in Texas. It rises to a criminal issue if the child is injured. What exactly "injured" means remains to be seen and I suppose it is handled on a case by case basis. Texas law allows for force, but not "deadly force."

Apparently the Texas woman used too much force which landed her in trouble. That particular case, though, didn't make spanking against the law, even though I admire the judge for taking a stance. The criminal code has to be changed by legislature, not judges.


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## tonttu (Dec 24, 2010)

I still remember to this day 35 years later , when I was 3 years old and my Mother kept telling me , not to run across the street in front of my Grandparents house . I also still remember clearly , that I thought , I will not stop trying until she smacks me on the butt , no matter what she says .

And I didn´t stop and got smacked and that´s when I figured , she is serious

I am against violence in general , but a spank is a far cry from that and SOMETIMES there is a time and a place for it


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)




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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CatsCradle*












And according to Mothering's Terms of Use, users cannot advocate physical punishment. So, here, there is "no time and place" for it.

Quote:


> "Mothering.com is the website of natural family living and advocates natural solutions to parenting challenges. We host discussion of nighttime parenting, loving discipline, gentle weaning, natural birth, homebirth, successful breastfeeding, alternative and complementary home remedies, informed consent and many other topics from a natural point of view. *We are not interested, however, in hosting discussions that advocate crying it out, harsh sleep training, physical punishment,* formula feeding, elective cesarean section, routine infant medical circumcision, or mandatory vaccinations as a parenting philosophy. We do not tolerate any type of discrimination in the discussions, including but not limited to racism, heterosexism, classism, sizeism, religious bigotry, or discrimination toward the disabled. We will not host discussions that involve explicit sexual references and are cautious about discussions on volatile topics such as abortion, religion and race. We do not host abortion debate. "


Also, I'd love to see an article where a white person was being prosecuted for spanking in the south. If Texas really feels that way, they should change their laws. Their books still currently state that you can "use physical force on a child as long as no injury occurs" , basically you can spank them, you just cant leave a mark.


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## Lulu0910 (Feb 6, 2012)

Adaline'sMama--- I have to say one of my biggest pet peeves to any argument is throwing a race card. Really??? If you google "mom's arrested for spanking her child." You would find the mother's "race/nationality" is all across the board. The Texas case was merely "ONE" out of pages upon pages of different cases. Her nationality, race, religious standing has absolute no bearing in this conversation. After all correct me if I'm wrong this topic is about "SPANKING" now isn't it? Wouldn't one be for a law that punishes a mother who spanks their child? I for one don't condone spanking!


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tonttu*
> 
> I still remember to this day 35 years later , when I was 3 years old and my Mother kept telling me , not to run across the street in front of my Grandparents house . I also still remember clearly , that I thought , I will not stop trying until she smacks me on the butt , no matter what she says .
> And I didn´t stop and got smacked and that´s when I figured , she is serious
> I am against violence in general , but a spank is a far cry from that and SOMETIMES there is a time and a place for it


If if your family your mother had shown she wasn't serious about something unless she spanked you, then it makes sense you would think this. "If she really means it, she'll spank me, so if she doesn't spank me, she must not really mean it." I would think that's another good reason to NOT spank, and also a reason to re-think rules and expectations.I don't have any expectations I'm not serious about. If I'm not serious about it, my kids can do what they want. If I am serious about it, then they know it (and without any amount of violence.) But I am careful to only make rules that are really important, so they don't have tons of rules to worry about, and they don't have to wonder which I'm serious about.


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> If if your family your mother had shown she wasn't serious about something unless she spanked you, then it makes sense you would think this. "If she really means it, she'll spank me, so if she doesn't spank me, she must not really mean it." I would think that's another good reason to NOT spank, and also a reason to re-think rules and expectations.I don't have any expectations I'm not serious about. If I'm not serious about it, my kids can do what they want. If I am serious about it, then they know it (and without any amount of violence.) But I am careful to only make rules that are really important, so they don't have tons of rules to worry about, and they don't have to wonder which I'm serious about.


Exactly! My mother is not a spanker, so I had other ways of telling when she was serious. She had a certain tone of voice, a certain way of saying something, that communicated to me that I had hit a hard limit.

As for running across the street: my mom was handicapped and could not run after us if we ran across the street and were in danger. She was so terrified of us running across the street and being run over that she always reacted very strongly and emotionally to it. We learned very early not to do it, unless we wanted a mother hugging us and sobbing everywhere.


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## tonttu (Dec 24, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> If if your family your mother had shown she wasn't serious about something unless she spanked you, then it makes sense you would think this. "If she really means it, she'll spank me, so if she doesn't spank me, she must not really mean it." I would think that's another good reason to NOT spank, and also a reason to re-think rules and expectations.I don't have any expectations I'm not serious about. If I'm not serious about it, my kids can do what they want. If I am serious about it, then they know it (and without any amount of violence.) But I am careful to only make rules that are really important, so they don't have tons of rules to worry about, and they don't have to wonder which I'm serious about.


No , my Mother was and is to this day , a wonderful Mother and Grandmother to my kids . I admire her for everything she has done and still does for me and all of us to this day and I have a great deal of respect for her as well .

I do not beat my children nor do I advocate physical abuse , and I was never physically abused as a child .

However as a young woman I was , in my first marriage , so I really know the difference between a smack and a beating and there is a WORLD of difference between the two .

And I don´t mean that as advocating spanking , which I would never do , that is a mere statement


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## Peggy O'Mara (Nov 19, 2001)

I think we're talking about authoritarian parenting vs.cooperative parenting. Sure, there's a difference between a smack and a beating, but for a small child even harsh words can be debilitating. I was brought up in an authoritarian home and I didn't know how to say no when I grew up and was conditioned to be compliant. I didn't even know how to make a decision.

I wanted a different relationship with my children. I learned that they, that all of us, have a good reason for their behavior. We have choices in conflict with children and adults. Children are, by nature, dependent--they cannot fulfill their own needs. When a child "misbehaves," it may be that she is simply frustrated by a legitimate need. She may be tired, hungry, or overwhelmed by a disruption of her routine; she may be feeling jealous, frustrated, confused, or afraid; or she may be simply too young to understand or to express her emotions. When we eliminate the symptoms of the problem by punishing, the problem does not go away.

Your child's behavior can teach you something about his needs, if you take the time to listen. Almost all acting out is a cry for help. Your child may be jealous, afraid, lonely, or in a situation that is out of his control. Often the child who is acting most unlovable is the most in need of love.

Young children are naturally impatient, forgetful, stubborn, loud, messy, and demanding. They are childish. It is unrealistic to expect them to act in socially acceptable ways until they have the maturity to do so. Most youngsters under five do not have the language or cognitive skills needed to share or work our disagreements, so they fight or cry instead.

Even in the case of real danger--as when a child runs out into the road--you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking. You can be dramatic without being abusive.

And, I find it illuminating that while we talk of some states outlawing spanking, 32 countries outlaw spanking! Sweden did so in 1979. Kenya in 2010. Republic of Congo in 2010. Sudan in 2011. I don't think it's any coincidence that we are such a violent and aggressive society when we condone spanking.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

I am commenting a little off topic, responding to the Baby Boom comment. Spanking, smacking and beating children has been around for a long time. The move away from physical punishment, in my observations, began sometime in the 1960s. I think, like many changes, it has taken time to increase popularity.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tonttu*
> 
> No , my Mother was and is to this day , a wonderful Mother and Grandmother to my kids . I admire her for everything she has done and still does for me and all of us to this day and I have a great deal of respect for her as well .
> I do not beat my children nor do I advocate physical abuse , and I was never physically abused as a child .
> ...


I didn't mean your mother was mean. I'm sure she was using the tools she knew. There was a time when almost everyone spanked - nice parents and parents who weren't so nice. It was just the norm.

I was responding to you saying you decided that you would run across the street unless she spanked you. That is the behavior of a child used to being punished. You know what is right and wrong, what is acceptable or not, by whether you are punished. You know how wrong what you are doing is by how severely you are punished.

I see that as an argument against punishment. If that is your way of teaching not to do something, it ensures you will have to punish for your child to know what to do. You've established punishment (and in this case spanking) as your language.

Also, you have to escalate as they get older, and as they do worse things. A mild swat on the butt won't work for older children used to it, let alone jaded adolescents. Looking past the behavior at the problem instead of at the behavior, and then working with the child to solve that problem, requires no escalation. The language is language of cooperation and encourages the child to cooperate (and not hide behavior) as he/she grows up.

And also, as I was saying, if the only expectations you have exist for very strong reasons, you don't have to punish to explain why. When there are few rules, and they are only for very important reasons (like safety), it isn't that hard to get children to follow them because they can see the reasons for the rules themselves and they aren't constantly running up against rules to rebel against.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Peggy O'Mara*
> 
> I think we're talking about authoritarian parenting vs.cooperative parenting. Sure, there's a difference between a smack and a beating, but for a small child even harsh words can be debilitating. I was brought up in an authoritarian home and I didn't know how to say no when I grew up and was conditioned to be compliant. I didn't even know how to make a decision.
> 
> Even in the case of real danger--as when a child runs out into the road--you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. *The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking.* You can be dramatic without being abusive.


Peggy, I find this to be true on so many levels. My DD is incredibly shaken by my own communication of fear. DD at 5.5 has become an excellent street crosser, simply because she understands the gravity of certain choices (or ignoring safety). She is so much more effected by my own dramatics, which are genuine. My dramatics don't include physical contact (other than grabbing of arm to pull back).

You know, I'm just having a hard time with the concept that hitting (I don't care if it is a small smack) creates positive results. It seems illogical to me that we (general we) sanction the hitting of children. Assault in legal terms is the "intentional unwanted touching of others"...that's right..."intentional unwanted touching" and yet we still think that the spanking of children is okay? If my boss gave me a light pat every time I committed a wrong in the workplace, he would be in court. Why? Because we have decided that personhood, bodily integrity and respect of the person is paramount. For some reason that doesn't extend to children. They are the last "property" in my opinion and we (general we) treat them as such. It used to be okay to hit your wife when she didn't obey. It was totally acceptable and even encouraged to maintain control over one's household. Thank goodness we've moved from there, but cats and dogs and hamsters have more bodily integrity and rights than children, and it frustrates me to no end.


----------



## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CatsCradle*
> 
> You know, I'm just having a hard time with the concept that hitting (I don't care if it is a small smack) creates positive results. It seems illogical to me that we (general we) sanction the hitting of children. Assault in legal terms is the "intentional unwanted touching of others"...that's right..."intentional unwanted touching" and yet we still think that the spanking of children is okay? If my boss gave me a light pat every time I committed a wrong in the workplace, he would be in court. Why? Because we have decided that personhood, bodily integrity and respect of the person is paramount. For some reason that doesn't extend to children. They are the last "property" in my opinion and we (general we) treat them as such. It used to be okay to hit your wife when she didn't obey. It was totally acceptable and even encouraged to maintain control over one's household. Thank goodness we've moved from there, but cats and dogs and hamsters have more bodily integrity and rights than children, and it frustrates me to no end.


I agree. SmackIng and beating are not the same thing but they are on the same continuum of physical violence. Just because a smack doesn't leave the victim bloodied and bruised doesn't make it harmless or in any way ok.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Peggy O'Mara*
> 
> *And, I find it illuminating that while we talk of some states outlawing spanking, 32 countries outlaw spanking! Sweden did so in 1979. Kenya in 2010. Republic of Congo in 2010. Sudan in 2011. I don't think it's any coincidence that we are such a violent and aggressive society when we condone spanking. *


Wow, I had no idea that so many countries outlawed it. I hope we can join that list soon.

Lulu, I dont want to argue with you or derail the thread to get on this topic, but people of color (and particularly immigrants in Texas and Arizona) have been prosecuted for SO many things that white people would never be prosecuted for. Im not saying that it's not good that they did prosecute, Im just saying htat until it's happening on a regular basis, Im not going to put much faith in it being enforced.


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## MindlessChrissy (Jun 7, 2009)

Unhappily I've spanked/smacked my son 2 times in his life.

The first time was because he ripped up a book and I was angry and I smacked him on the butt. I felt so horrible right after I did it that I started bawling like crazy and hugging him and telling him how sorry I was.

The 2nd time was when he ran into the road. We're always telling him to not run in the road. Stop. Look both ways before going into the road. (We even take him to the road to practice. We also tell him to not go/run into the road alone/without an adult.) That day he didn't bother. No amount of me yelling and carrying on stopped him. He almost got hit. He utterly failed to listen to a word I said. He payed me zero attention not matter how panicked I became. The faster I ran to him, the faster he ran off. When I got him I was in tears and I smacked him one across his butt while yelling and crying and carrying on. To this day when I raise my voice at him he will duck his head and scrunch down. This makes me feel like the smallest idiot to ever walk this earth. To know that I cause this type of reaction in my son when I raise my voice. It hurts my heart and makes me sad so now I try not to raise my voice at him. Which in turn means he ignores me and continues to do what he wants.


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## tonttu (Dec 24, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> I was responding to you saying you decided that you would run across the street unless she spanked you. That is the behavior of a child used to being punished. You know what is right and wrong, what is acceptable or not, by whether you are punished. You know how wrong what you are doing is by how severely you are punished.


No , on the contrary , I was not being punished a lot . My Mother as well as my paternal Grandparents were the most loving and kind people , any child could wish to grow up around !

I just always felt , and still feel to this day , that a child needs to know , it´s the child , not another little adult , living in the house , and that the grown-ups make the rules .

That has nothing to do with authoritarian upbringing or child abuse , but that is how it works throughout society , there are those . that are in charge and those that make the rules and the sooner a child learns that , the better


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## mleawicks (Feb 4, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *To-Fu*
> 
> This is very well put! I have similar feelings toward my various parents. It is not how I want my own children to feel.
> 
> ...


that would be the problem, their not scared and in that situation I want them to understand the danger. they can turn tail and run so fast for Rd or other danger and not be able to catch them. Had a freind who just told her son not to go to Rd. used other methoids. They are both died because the kid did not understand how unsafe it is. He would be an adult today. his mom ran to road to catch him. they were hit by a trackor trailer.

I was spanked as a kid. I did me no harm. I new my mom loved me from the other things we did. I think it has to do with the whole of how you parent. I have a friend from high school who was like many of you. spanked, yelled at but no love shown. She is very bitter. As I said depends on the whole of how you parent. I have 5 sibs and they all say like me. Spanking never hurt me. by the why my mom in my adult years till she passed was my best freind. I miss her much and she is the one that spanked me.


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## tonttu (Dec 24, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mleawicks*
> 
> that would be the problem, their not scared and in that situation I want them to understand the danger. they can turn tail and run so fast for Rd or other danger and not be able to catch them. Had a freind who just told her son not to go to Rd. used other methoids. They are both died because the kid did not understand how unsafe it is. He would be an adult today. his mom ran to road to catch him. they were hit by a trackor trailer.
> 
> I was spanked as a kid. I did me no harm. I new my mom loved me from the other things we did. I think it has to do with the whole of how you parent. I have a friend from high school who was like many of you. spanked, yelled at but no love shown. She is very bitter. As I said depends on the whole of how you parent. I have 5 sibs and they all say like me. Spanking never hurt me. by the why my mom in my adult years till she passed was my best freind. I miss her much and she is the one that spanked me.


Thank you , that is EXACTLY how I feel ! To this day , I am extremely close to my Mother and I miss both my Grandma and Grandpa more than I could put into words .

The very few times , I got spanked were the times , when I really deserved it and looking back I know , that my Mother did it , because she loved me so much and she cared for my well-being so much , that she really wanted to make sure , that she got her point across , like when I would not listen to anything she was saying , when I wanted to run across this busy street .

And that would have hurt me more than a little swat on my butt .


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## starling&diesel (Nov 24, 2007)

Why are we even having this conversation? The OP is clearly not a member of the Mothering community, or else she wouldn't be defending her decision to hit her child. This community does not endorse hitting our children. End of story.

If you want help to find new and more gentle ways to parent, then great. But to come here and incite this kind of BS and defend it, that's just rude. I smell troll.


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tonttu* That has nothing to do with authoritarian upbringing or child abuse , but that is how it works throughout society , there are those . that are in charge and those that make the rules and the sooner a child learns that , the better


On the contrary--I'd consider that pretty much the definition of "authoritarian." You are the parent, you have authority, you make the rules.

My parents were non-authoritarian in style. You'd never hear them saying something like, "My house, my rules." They thought of their house as my house, too--I lived there. They viewed their children as really small, kind of silly roommates--in need of guidance and advice, but not rules. We all had a shared responsibility to make the household work--or at least, that's what it seemed to us. In reality, they had more responsibility because they were wage-earning adults.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

starling&diesel- The OP has asked for opinions about this issue in a really good way, and I think she has taken the advice of most of the posters. She is a single mom, and is seemingly looking for different opinions so that she can make a choice. She even came back and thanked us for answering honestly and letting her know what we thought without being mean.

Since then, other posters have commented on how spanking has a time and a place. So, I think the past few pages actually have nothing to do with the OP.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jarynsmom2006*
> 
> Thanks for all the replies ... and thank you for not attacking me lol. I have been told before I'm crazy or irresponsible ... I breastfed my son until he self weaned, he was 2. Ex's family thought I was nuts to go past 8 months. I was accused of being negligent because I refused to have him vaccinated, this is actually being used against me in the court issue actually. Anyway I know I'm not nor will I ever be a perfect parent, no one is. I just want to look at all options on every subject and go from there which I feel is best. There are several good points on here and I hope no one thought I meant people who don't spank their kids raise brats who are unruly, I was speaking from the few experiences. I just don't know what to do honestly. It's so hard with him going back and forth and I work swing shifts, 12 hrs. I have so much on my plate it seems and sometimes I just wanna crawl in a hole and get away because I feel incompetent. I want to do what's best for my son obviously. I guess maybe I'm just overwhelmed right now with work , we just moved into a new place abt a month ago and court is coming up. I feel like I TOO often take my frustrations out on my son, not spanking, but yelling then I feel like a total jerk afterwards
> 
> ...


This was the post after her OP, and she doesnt seem to have come here stir up any drama, just looking for answers.


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## luckiest (Apr 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Peggy O'Mara*
> 
> I think we're talking about authoritarian parenting vs.cooperative parenting. Sure, there's a difference between a smack and a beating, but for a small child even harsh words can be debilitating. I was brought up in an authoritarian home and I didn't know how to say no when I grew up and was conditioned to be compliant. I didn't even know how to make a decision.
> 
> ...


Aaaand Peggy nails it!! I need to print out this whole post and post it on my fridge. Can I share on Facebook?


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## To-Fu (May 23, 2007)

I don't think anyone is arguing that we shouldn't have rules at home, or that the parent should not present herself as the adult in the relationship.

There are certainly ways to assert the hierarchy in the relationship with our kids without hitting them. You can still be the big mama, you can still be alpha, and you can do it without hitting or yelling or doing time-outs. I'd suggest the work of Gordon Neufeld as a starting point.


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mleawicks*
> 
> that would be the problem, their not scared and in that situation I want them to understand the danger. they can turn tail and run so fast for Rd or other danger and not be able to catch them. Had a freind who just told her son not to go to Rd. used other methoids. They are both died because the kid did not understand how unsafe it is. He would be an adult today. his mom ran to road to catch him. they were hit by a trackor trailer.


There are other ways to teach children not to run in the street, or restrain them when they are too little to understand, without spanking them. Many parents don't hit their children and the kids miraculously survive childhood without being hit by cars. On the other hand, spanking them doesn't guarantee they won't run again, you have to supervise them closely anyways, so what's the point of spanking them???

My dd is just starting to get it, at almost 3. Until now, I preferred her to be safely strapped in her stroller whenever we were close to busy roads. Ds also used to bolt and run as a toddler; now at 7 he pays close attention to safety, can cross roads, bikes alone on our small street, checks his helmet and his seat belt when he's in the car. And we didn't have to spank him even once!

I've read somewhere about a toddler who would run into the street and got a spanking for it. Next time, she still ran, but covering her butt with her hands. The only think she learned from it was that if you do something you're not supposed to, you need to cover your behind.

My dh also told me how he got a spanking for trying to stick nails into an electric outlet when he was 3 or 4. Several years later, he was playing with some friends outside, when their ball got stuck on some electric wires. Dh climbed a fence to get his ball back and suffered an electric shock which threw him to the ground. To this day, his parents don't know that their son almost died that day. He would have gotten a major spanking for it.


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## humboldtorganic (Jul 11, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Peggy O'Mara*
> 
> I was brought up in an authoritarian home and I didn't know how to say no when I grew up and was conditioned to be compliant. I didn't even know how to make a decision.


This is exactly me.

I used to think that spanking never hurt me and I grew up fine, but now after having a child of my own, after reading study after study about the long term affects of spanking, I realize that I am that way because of the discipline tactics my parents used... spanking included. I dont wish that on anyone, let alone my own beautiful baby.

Also how can a child learn its not okay to hit, when you hit them? I know many others have already stated that, but to me it doesnt get any clearer than that.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Honestly, we're spending so much time talking about running in the road, but that is a supervision issue, not a discipline issue. It isn't like you have a 2-year-old, spank them, and then you trust them to hang out by the road without holding their hands. Regardless of whether a child is spanked or not, once a child has shown she/he might run into the road, that child ends up being watched better by the road. Spanking is just something to make the parent feel better IMO. It doens't teach anything about cars.


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## Peggy O'Mara (Nov 19, 2001)

Being spanked doesn't mean you don't love the parents that spanked you. That's the trouble with abuse of any kind. It may make us eventually change or leave a relationship, but the love remains. That's the rub. So, still loving your parents and being close to them even if they spanked you is not evidence of the effectiveness or the wisdom of spanking. It's just confirms the tragedy of abuse. Rather than hating the perpetrator, abuse can make you hate yourself because when someone you love and depend upon overpowers you with violence and abuse, you feel ashamed and unworthy. It takes a lot of willingness for personal exploration to appreciate the affects of spanking.

I agree that we're not here to debate the merits of spanking. There are none. But, I do like that we can have this conversation and hopefully help the OP with some alternatives to spanking. OP, are you interested in that?


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

OP i hear you. i really get how much under stress you are. i get how hard it is being a single mother and just trying to keep your head above water. let alone deal with a mean x.

i have all those factors in common with you. i have had to keep my bfeeding a secret - rather my dd had to coz her dad wanted her to stop when she didnt want to.

so the thing here is what do you want for your child. do you want him to cooperate? with whom? where?

at around 5 and a half my dd was a real pill. we were under a LOT of stress. i had a LOT of help having people listen to me vent so that i got some relief from the stress i was under. i got my needs met.

so that when it came to my dd i could truly be there for her as a mom.

that is when i realised belonging to multiple homes, having to learn all the different rules of the different houses dd was in - she needed a place to vent. she needed a place to be herself. she had to be on her best behaviour every where else - and she was.

but where was she to scream. to hit out. to fight every single step. she needed a place to let her hair hang down and just let it out.

i learnt this from her. one day i told her to behave because i was way too angry and frustrated and i could hit out. she looked me straight in the eye and asked me 'but ma what did i do? why are getting angry with me? i am just being myself. why is it bothering you today when it didnt yesterday? i didnt do anything wrong.' oh man!!! i felt all the anger leave my body. i actually felt every single muscle in my body relax and realise omg this little 5 year old is right.

learnt a huge big lesson.

discovered that all of dd's 'bad' behaviour was a badge of honor for me. that she was soo confident that i loved her, that i truly accepted who she was - that she knew that no matter what she did - i may not like the action, but i truly loved her. and so she would let her hair down. and i let her. i sat with her and took her beating. i took her 'ma i am speaking english to you. why dont you understand me. everyone else does but you.' well child you were so emotional in your account that you missed out key parts. but did i say that. no i just sat and listened.

you know something though. i did hit her. once. in frustration. when she was 4 i think. i didnt mean to hit, i just did it. and regretted it just at that very time. i was mortified. but nothing like how mortified my dd was. she was just amazed. flabbergasted. but worst she felt betrayed. how could her 'only thing' react that way to her. it took out a piece of me but i made a big realisation.

i had to take care of myself. my dd was just being herself. in cases when i came close to spanking - i was reacting. i wasnt disciplining at all.

yes dd is a spirited child. and spirited children are special imho. they are children who are sensitive and see right through you.

6 is also when the first signs of puberty begin. at least it did for dd. that made her behave like a PMSing lady. in the middle of her tantrum i stayed quiet. i knew she was out of it. she could not see reason. but afterwards she was mortified at what she did. she told me 'mom i know it was wrong, but i just couldnt help it. i felt like someone else within me was making me do this.' and it was. it was raging hormones.

well she got out of that phase and omg BOOOM. she became this child i did not know. so mature, so level headed. and also with body odor.

today she is the sweetest child ever.

one more thing i discovered about me. if dd went against societal norms in my embarrassement i saw red. till i realised heck those societal norms are bullshit. its not realistic to expect that behaviour out of the child.

also as pp pointed out - it is the panic in your voice that is key - not your action. dd was 18 months old when she ran out into the street. oh boy. did i have a fit. later i remember as i was hysterical dd had the deer in the headlight look. she never NEVER NEVER EVER ran out on the street again. she brought up later what was bad about it to understand, but oh by she never ran out on the street.

so hang in there mama. TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF. this is not about your son. this is about YOU!!!! you have A LOT on your plate. give yourself permission to take a break in whatever form you'd like. i had no one to relieve me, so while dd was involved in something i'd take a couple of minutes to sit down with a glass of icy water and just savor it. those little mini breaks made me such a better mom.

sometimes our children being 'bad' is a good thing. it reveals to us what's up with them. they dont do that to be mean to you. they do it because they know no other way to cope with the situation at that moment.

give yourself a break. and give your son a break too. poor baby. he always has to live upto someones expectations. that's a lot to carry for a little one.


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## Mama Soltera (Dec 13, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mleawicks*
> 
> i will use time out and spank onlywhen life threat...like running into RD.


But I've never seend spanking be effective for even life threatening things like running in the road. I've known many parents who do that and their kids still run in the road. When things are life threatening I have shouted (in an urgent way) for my kids stop, I grab them (to keep them from going), and then I speak very clearly (and strongly), face-to-face, and they really get it. My kids never ran in the road. I just feel like, if it's not necessary, why not use another method? But I agree that when things that are seriously dangerous it is not the time to coo and whisper gently. I think there is a happy medium that is safe and gets the point across but does not harm the child or make them focus on trusting you less and avoiding you more.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> Honestly, we're spending so much time talking about running in the road, but that is a supervision issue, not a discipline issue. It isn't like you have a 2-year-old, spank them, and then you trust them to hang out by the road without holding their hands. Regardless of whether a child is spanked or not, once a child has shown she/he might run into the road, that child ends up being watched better by the road. Spanking is just something to make the parent feel better IMO. It doens't teach anything about cars.


Excellent post. My DD is almost six, and we still hold hands at the corner and we are still super aware of the street. Only recently have I been crossing the street, and then allowing DD to cross by herself, after waiting for the signal and looking both ways. At no time prior to that did I trust the situation to let go of her hand. It really is a supervision issue. Being super aware of dangers as a parent is a hard thing (frankly I'm so weary of it but it's gotta be done). To expect a child under five or four to make those decisions is not something that is teachable, IMO. Now, you may have a kid who comes to the realization sooner, and that is great, but kids that age are impulsive, and I don't think that safety (in general terms) can be taught through "punishment." Unless you are extremely lucky with your kid, on average those critical thinking skills are not there. It doesn't mean that your kid is dumb or disobedient, it just means that they haven't mastered the situation or circumstances yet, and that is okay. It is up to the adult or older person to make those decisions for them with gentle guidance.


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## jewel1288 (May 6, 2011)

My heart goes out to you. I can only imagine the frustration you're feeling! I don't know if this has already been mentioned, as I don't have time to read all the comments. :-/ So forgive me if this is redundant.

I've worked as a nanny for more than a decade and now have my own child who is 18months old, so I'm obviously not the most experienced mamma around, but here's what I've observed in my parenting and childcare. All of the children I have nannied who were spanked or had their hands smacked as a form of discipline, also hit and the line was non existent as far as who they hit- sometimes it was me (even though I was never responsible for spanking and wouldn't have even if parents had asked me to), sometimes it was another child, and sometimes it was a sibling. What I observed is that when the child experienced anger or frustration, they would often times hit as a way to "deal" with their anger or frustration. As adults, we know this isn't a good form of learning to communicate, as hitting doesn't produce the result of changed behavior; it does teach fear though and often times a child who hits. One mother I worked for slapped her child's hands when telling the child no at an age younger than 18 months. For the very brief time I cared for her child, when he was upset or unhappy about something, he would hit my child. My child, having not experienced hitting, was obviously brought to tears and had a heart-jerking expression of why would he do that to me?! Of course, at his young age, he didn't have the words to express that he had no interest in sharing his toys, but he will eventually and it's a valuable lesson to learn that hitting does not bring about healthy communication skills. So that's something to think about or maybe focus on in the times when you're wanting to take the easy road to punishment. In the long run, I think having discussions with your son and taking away privileges for unacceptable behavior will serve you both well.

With my own child, I try to really focus on being in tune with needs and meeting my LO's needs with love and compassion and concern. Sure, I have a 18month old and your son is much older and probably brings more frustration at times because he does have the ability to verbally communicate, but that's where you also have the advantage!  Anger or misbehavior almost exclusively exists because there is a disconnect in the relationship, whether it's intentional or not, as parents, it's your responsibility to reconnect and determine what emotions are behind the anger and/or misheavior.

As for your ex and his new wife, it sounds like she wants to be an active step mom, no? It sounds like she has just tried to take on that role. So, since it's bringing you a lot of stress and surely your son as well, as having three parents or even four who don't or are not able to parent together, maybe talking with a family counselor would be helpful if having a civil conversation with your ex and his wife would be a challenge. Some boundaries definitely need to be established and adhered to, which is sounds like you understand but that they don't. Have you ever spoken with your ex's wife? Would that be possible? If so, cutting out the middle man (your ex) might really help, as sometimes things can get lost in translation-so to speak. I believe that having as many people involved in your child's life who love him can be a wonderful thing, but having two or more parenting methods, no matter how much love is behind the effort, ultimately doesn't help your son... so her education aside shouldn't have all the bearing on how they parent your chlid, which may be a really difficult thing for her to understand, especially now that she has her own motherly instincts kicking in with her new baby. Ultimately, what may be really helpful for everyone, but especially you and your son is for there to be some discussion(s) about parenting together.

Wishing you only the best. It's a tough job being a parent and an even tougher one when you're a single parent. I applaud you for seeking out support...also sometimes a difficult thing to do. Good luck to you!


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## mleawicks (Feb 4, 2012)

so different people have different ways and opinions. We who spank are not abusive. yes there are those who are. just as there are those who don't spank are too abusive in not teaching child rules. so we have different people with different parenting styles. and the world goes round and round and round........


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I don't spank mainly because it just doesn't seem right to me. Like others have said - I don't hit adults so that thought of hitting a child - my dependt child who only has me to protect them seems so counter to my job as a parent.

Also, don't think it works. I'm not entirely against "logical consequences" (OP -- these are punishments that relate logically to the behavior you're trying to change). But, I think a parent should use these sparingly AND if a parent needs to resort to them over and over, I think it means they're not working. So, if you're finding yourself needing to rely heavily on bribes, rewards, charts, time-outs, and certainly spanking, it's worth a consideration about how well these actually work for your child.

And, OP -- the growth and journey of disciplining without relying on things like spanking is really a wonderful experience as a parent and it can help you in other relationships. It's wonderful to stretch your tool box of relating to people. Good luck on your journey!!


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mleawicks*
> 
> so different people have different ways and opinions. We who spank are not abusive. yes there are those who are. just as there are those who don't spank are too abusive in not teaching child rules. so we have different people with different parenting styles. and the world goes round and round and round........


I think ultimately we're just going to have fundamentally different views on this. I don't consider spanking a parenting style and can't condone it as such. Others have framed the issue more eloquently than I can at the moment, but personally I don't think one can break physical punishment into degrees. I'll leave it at that.


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## starling&diesel (Nov 24, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mleawicks*
> 
> so different people have different ways and opinions. We who spank are not abusive. yes there are those who are. just as there are those who don't spank are too abusive in not teaching child rules. so we have different people with different parenting styles. and the world goes round and round and round........


I fundamentally disagree. I believe that hitting your children is abuse. And I would argue that sure, the world goes around and around, but there are other places for you to hang out. We do not advocate hitting your children here. This is supposed to be a safe space for children and families. Not a place where someone might come away with the idea that hitting is okay. Coming here to genuinely look for alternatives, great. Coming here to justify or excuse hitting kids, not cool.


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## lovebeingamomma (Mar 16, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mleawicks*
> 
> so different people have different ways and opinions. We who spank are not abusive. yes there are those who are. just as there are those who don't spank are too abusive in not teaching child rules. so we have different people with different parenting styles. and the world goes round and round and round........


I agree with you.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

What we can all agree upon is that the goal is to not spank. Even if one is willing to keep that tool in their arsenal, it is still something parents turn to after other solutions have failed. This is where GD is valuable to all parents. I imagine that hitting your child is a very stressful choice in discipline and if a parent is claiming to not be abusing their child it MUST be a last resort. I think that GD applied by a thoughtful, careful, skillful parent means that one ever needs to spank -- even if that parent chooses to keep it as an option.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)




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## baileyb (Dec 22, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mleawicks*
> 
> so different people have different ways and opinions. We who spank are not abusive. yes there are those who are. just as there are those who don't spank are too abusive in not teaching child rules. so we have different people with different parenting styles. and the world goes round and round and round........


I believe this, too. I have seen some posts stating that they respect their child(ren) too much to spank them but I respect my child too much to not make sure that she knows that things have consequences and that some things are not safe. We are rural and homestead and farm and unschool and if I didn't make sure she understood that when I say not to go play with a certain piece of equipment or play in a certain area or not to eat or drink something that it is not a joke. These aren't just rules because it is my house, it is for her safety. Children need to have lots of time to explore without mom holding their hand and they need to do it safely. I also think that a consequence that is given for the reason of teaching, that is given out by a fair and loving parent is going to be way better than what life is going to give them for consequences. I am not just talking about a consequence as just spanking, but I do use that as a last resort. In my experience when spanking is used only as a last resort, as the child grows there will be less and less spanking because they are going to listen to what you say first and it won't go any further than that.

I agree with whoever it was that said that not disciplining is also abuse, as well.


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

I am shocked by the last few posts. No child, or person, "needs" physical violence. Period.


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## thegoodearth (Jun 6, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MichelleZB*
> 
> I am shocked by the last few posts. No child, or person, "needs" physical violence. Period.


Well said. I too am shocked by the last few posts. Is this Mothering or the Twilight Zone?


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Really, BaileyB, you "like" the comment posted above about how "spanking is good!" "Spare the rod, hate your son?" Really?

Lahealthyliving- There arent enough eyerolls in the world for me to give a post that quotes the bible on spanking. That line of logic has gotten children killed, and people use it to justify hitting their little babies. In fact, I do believe that Michael Pearl, writer of To Train Up a Child uses that very bible verse as a defense to his method of child training. I'm pretty sure it's the main I'm not really sure what your blog has to do with this conversation.


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## lovebeingamomma (Mar 16, 2007)

I'm so sick of the comments about this being "Mothering"...therefore we must all be the exact same right??? Unbelievable. That is not the purpose of Mothering. Mothering holds to certain beliefs, that does not mean a mother who say, is looking for homebirth support, but spanks, can't be on mothering (well they can, but be ready to be rudely attacked!). Nobody cares if you think spanking is abusive (that's called an opinion, not fact), and nobody cares if you think it's "shocking" that we who spank would (gasp!) dare to say so. Every parent will do what they think is best for their own children. Attacking every post you don't like serves no purpose. We get it, you don't respect the discipline of spanking...you don't need to say it OVER AND OVER AGAIN every time there's a post about mothers who choose to spank!

So to the Russian girl I say, thank you for your input and welcome to Mothering!


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

bailey your siggie says your dd is 1.5 years old. is that up to date or is it an old siggie?

shouldnt teenagers be spanked too coz they are worse than toddlers and dont listen?


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

No one said anything about people who spank not being on this website, but the terms of use specifically state that Mothering does not host discussions on the merit of spanking. There are TONS of places on the internet where parents can go to get support for that type of discipline and not too many places for those of us who practice GD to go. No one is stating that everyone must be the same, this is the gentle discipline forum after all. We all have different methods of parenting, but this particular subforum is specifically designed for people who strive towards not using physical force. So it's not an issue of saying people who spank cant be on mothering, but in this particular space people don't want to hear about how using phyiscal force on children is acceptable:

http://www.mothering.com/community/a/gentle-discipline-forum-guidelines

I dont think anyone is mad at the OP, the OP was just asking opinions. But several other posters who have posted comments about there being a time and a place for spanking, and spanking is good, etc, are making inappropriate comments. The OP asked why people were against spanking, not why people were for it.


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovebeingamomma*
> 
> I'm so sick of the comments about this being "Mothering"...therefore we must all be the exact same right??? Unbelievable. That is not the purpose of Mothering. Mothering holds to certain beliefs, that does not mean a mother who say, is looking for homebirth support, but spanks, can't be on mothering. So rude and disrespectful to assume otherwise. Nobody cares if you think spanking is abusive, and nobody cares if you think it's "shocking" that we who spank would (gasp!) dare to say so. Every parent will do what they think is best for their own children.


I hope that they do, but even if every parent does what they think is best, it doesn't mean they aren't wrong. I must take a moral stance against spanking, or any violence towards other humans.

We don't need to think all the same on this forum. For instances, Mothering takes a neutral stance on vaccines and there are parents who don't vaccinate, who selectively vaccinate, and who vaccinate on schedule here, and lots of (hot!) discussions.

But Mothering does NOT take a neutral stance on spanking. It says it very specifically in the Forum Guidelines, which you can read yourself: "This forum has a specific aim: to help parents learn and apply gentle discipline methods in raising their children... Please appreciate that this forum is not a place to uphold or advocate violence against children. Things that constitute violence toward a child are things like hitting, spanking, humiliating, shaming, screaming, prolonged isolation, basically things that are intended to cause physical or emotional pain."


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## lovebeingamomma (Mar 16, 2007)

Well than Mothering should shut down this thread, because obviously those who spank are sharing their opinions. If that's not "allowed", then take it down. And you can take a moral stance on the issue with your OWN post, without attacking other people's.

And I had no idea this was the gentle discipline forum, this thread shows up on the home page so I just clicked on it. It's not hard to see that a thread like this would easily become a debate thread.


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovebeingamomma*
> And you can take a moral stance on the issue with your OWN post, without attacking other people's.


No I can't. That's not what a moral stance is. A moral stance means I think spanking is wrong--mine or anyone else's.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovebeingamomma*
> 
> I'm so sick of the comments about this being "Mothering"...therefore we must all be the exact same right??? Unbelievable. That is not the purpose of Mothering. Mothering holds to certain beliefs, that does not mean a mother who say, is looking for homebirth support, but spanks, can't be on mothering. So rude and disrespectful to assume otherwise. Nobody cares if you think spanking is abusive, and nobody cares if you think it's "shocking" that we who spank would (gasp!) dare to say so. Every parent will do what they think is best for their own children.


I don't think we always need to agree but spanking is one of the big things this sitehas always been against, it is the reason many people join. You.don't have to think it is abuse but it is against the UA to promote spanking and in that sense many of the recent comments are a violation of that agreement and don't belong on this board. There are many sites you can go to if you want people to support hitting kids as a valid parenting tool, this is the only one I have found that supports parents who hope to never hit their kids and are seeking support for their parenting style.


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## lovebeingamomma (Mar 16, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MichelleZB*
> 
> No I can't. That's not what a moral stance is. A moral stance means *I think spanking is wrong--mine or anyone else's.*


I'm talking about respect. You can say the above bold in your own post without attacking anyone else. Flag a post if you don't like it.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovebeingamomma*
> 
> I'm talking about respect. You can say the above bold in your own post without attacking anyone else. Flag a post if you don't like it.


So, everyone is supposed to be allowed here and be respected here, but no one is allowed to share there opinion about what they morally object to. Got it.


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## lovebeingamomma (Mar 16, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> So, everyone is supposed to be allowed here and be respected here, but no one is allowed to share there opinion about what they morally object to. Got it.


You really don't get what I'm saying. It's really not that difficult to share your opinion and be respectful at the same time.


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## AmandaT (Jul 12, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovebeingamomma*
> 
> You really don't get what I'm saying. It's really not that difficult to share your opinion and be respectful at the same time.


It is when HUMAN RIGHTS are not being upheld for children. If I met someone in real life, did not like their behavior and spanked them because of it it would not be okay, it would be assault. I can't see why it matters if that person is a child or an adult.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

I dont think saying that you think spanking is wrong is disrespectful to you. IMO, it's disrespectful to strike another human being for any reason whatsoever. In your opinion, it's disrespectful for me to say that I think it's wrong.

There is a whole list of stuff I think is wrong. Ill bet you have some things that you believe are wrong too. For example, if you made the statement : "I believe abortion is wrong". or "I believe premarital sex is wrong", or "IMO, RIC is wrong", or "I believe feeding your kids sugar all day is wrong" would you consider yourself to be attacking the people who have had abortions, engage in sex without being wed, circumcising their kids, or feeding their kids sugar all day long? (these are just examples, not saying you believe these things.) The point is, all of them are legal, and different people have different beliefs on them. Stating that you are morally opposed to any of these things is not disrespecting anyone.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *laheathyliving*
> 
> The Bible tells us, "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him."


Perhaps this is a thing better discussed in the Spirituality Forum. Biblical interpretation of that verse, that is. The term "shebet" (which has been translated to rod in modern languages) was used widely in Hebrew writings (much of which is the Christian Old Testament) to signify "guidance." I'm not a scholar of Torah or any other ancient texts, but it is fascinating to me how language is interpreted sometimes into the literal, as opposed to the often poetic or parable nature in which it was originally intended. But again, a discussion best suited in Spirituality.


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## PacificMar (Jul 24, 2012)

I'm not a huge linguistic or theological expert either, but when I was in college, I seriously considered becoming a rabbi and my understanding of the "rod" image supports CatsCradle's point. In the pastoral culture that was the context for these sacred texts, shepherds didn't use their rods to strike the sheep--the rod was more like a pointer to direct them when getting the herd to move where the shepherd wanted them to go (such as into an enclosure). (I'm guessing they might hav used the staff they also carried to defend the herd from predators.) Hence, the image of the rod suggests the guidance and direction parents give to their offspring rather than physical punishment. The text would then suggest that parents harm their children by refraining from their teaching role.


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## lovebeingamomma (Mar 16, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> *I dont think saying that you think spanking is wrong is disrespectful to you*. IMO, it's disrespectful to strike another human being for any reason whatsoever. In your opinion, it's disrespectful for me to say that I think it's wrong.
> 
> There is a whole list of stuff I think is wrong. Ill bet you have some things that you believe are wrong too. For example, if you made the statement : "I believe abortion is wrong". or "I believe premarital sex is wrong", or "IMO, RIC is wrong", or "I believe feeding your kids sugar all day is wrong" would you consider yourself to be attacking the people who have had abortions, engage in sex without being wed, circumcising their kids, or feeding their kids sugar all day long? (these are just examples, not saying you believe these things.) The point is, all of them are legal, and different people have different beliefs on them. Stating that you are morally opposed to any of these things is not disrespecting anyone.


I never said it was. I just think that can be done without things such as "eyerolling" for example. That is all.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

That particular bible verse has been used time and time again to justify parents beating their children. I roll my eyes at anyone who chooses to use that as justification for hitting their children.

The mere IDEA that if you dont hit your children then you "hate" them is so ridiculously offensive that I cant believe you would take offense at the eyerolling part.

Eta: my very own mother quoted that bible verse as she was slamming my head up against the mirror in the bathroom for dressing like a "whore" when I was getting ready for a date.


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovebeingamomma*
> 
> I never said it was. I just think that can be done without things such as "eyerolling" for example. That is all.


Well, I never eyerolled, mainly because that's not how I, er, roll. Although I'd have to say that an eyeroll is hardly the worst thing that can ever happen to you. If you are striking your children, and they're surviving it, surely you can survive an emoticon.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jarynsmom2006*
> 
> Thanks for the response ... I am just trying to figure out the right path with my son. He just turned 6 in April. His father and I have been separated since he was 2. We haven't had the best relationship since, we have tried to get along and do what is right for my son, however some things have hindered that and gotten in the way. For the first 2 yrs, I didn't require his father to pay child support, but finally got to the point where I Had to have help. I was working a full time job as well as a part time and he was paying Nothing, and I never kept our son from spending time with him because my main concern since the day I found out I was pregnant has been my son and what is best for him ( well at least what I feel is best ). Long story short, when he was served with child support papers, he filed for full custody a week later, stating I was physically abusive to my child which was so far from the truth. Yes I believe in spanking, but it was rarely practiced then. He was the one from the start that said he would be spanked and I leaned more toward the other methods /forms. However he had met a new woman who happened to be getting her masters in child psychology and I strongly believe it was suggested by her how to raise our son. I work as a 911 dispatcher and work swing shifts, I have since he was 6 months old, instead of daycare , my parents have kept him and have had a huge part in raising him. Fast forward to today. Father is now married to the female and they now have an 8 month old little boy. He doesn't communicate very well with me in some parenting issues, instead sends "messages" thru my 6 yo as to what he and her think is not good or how things should be handled. My son is starting to become a tad more headstrong and more argumentative than he use to be. He isn't bad by any means, but I don't want it to get to that point either. I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall with him going back and forth between 3 places and so many different forms of discipline :/


Mama -- I think the most respectful thing to do on this thread is to turn it back over to your posts and see if we can help you. As you can see, even on MDC where there is a general philosophy against spanking in favor of gentle discipline, there are differences of opinion. I think if I were you I would let your child be your guide. I'm not sure from this last post if your DS's father has had a change of heart about spanking. Is that part of what's happening? As a child of a blended family I can tell you that I think good communication between you and your X will be really helpful for you and your son. I do think you can handle a slight difference in discipline style but ideally it would be nice if you and your X were roughly on the same page.

I know you probably don't feel like there's much that can be done for how you and your X communicate, especially if he has a new baby and you are both probably very busy. I assume you have worked through the past issues over child custody? If so, maybe a friendly, "Hey, DS told me you do/don't use (blank) form of discipline in your home. I'm having some trouble with DS in the last few months, can you let me know what's working for you?" I think a little humility, reaching out and straight forwardness may be just what you need to get back on track with your X. If that's oversimplifying your relationship with your X, may I suggest the single parenting forum for help with this?

As far as your son's behavior from a GD perspective, I think it makes sense that he's acting out a little. A custody battle, new step-parent with a different way of parenting, a new sibling, new child care...plus, if he's 6 I assume school is still a new experience, somewhat. I think there's A LOT going on for him. I think behavior issues in his case can probably be solved by addressing some of these exciting new life changes, looking into child development stages of a 6 year old and perhaps implementing things like a good routine, lots of advance notice about plans, living arrangements and etc., (yes) good communication between you and your X and etc. Do you know what I mean?

Also, when dealing with behavioral issues I think it's really interesting to post (here or elsewhere) just one particular incident and get some feedback about how others would deal with them. It's amazing what great ideas other parents sometimes come up with!

Good luck to you!!


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## PacificMar (Jul 24, 2012)

Several concerns arise for me when people debate the merits of spanking.

I often hear people who've been spanked reporting things like "I turned out okay" or "I needed it, and now that I'm an adult, I'm thankful to my parents for teaching me right from wrong." (Of course, people say this about any discipline method--we tend to justify the way we were raised more than we tend to critique it.) I have to wonder what they mean by "okay." Obviously they learned that something they did displeased their parents, and perhaps eventually as they matured, they came to understand the relationship between a code of behavior, their parents' expectations, and their divergence from those expectations (represented as "disobedience," "willfulness," etc.) But did they really learn right from wrong--especially the internal moral compass that causes us to consider what the right action might be when some external authority figure is NOT around to punish misbehavior? Does one turn out "okay" if one believes that violence (even the "mild" violence of spanking) is a permissible way of expressing one's disapproval of a child's actions? Some "okay" people also consider fights between adults, and between nations, to be acceptable ways to address problems.

How does one determine that one "needed" a spanking as a child? I agree that children need guidance and direction from adults. Children are wonderful beings, but they are also not yet mature enough to make safe or appropriate decisions in all areas of life--a capacity that grows as they do. I don't agree that guidance and direction should take the form of disciplinary acts that cause pain, humiliation, and/or fear of the parent administering the punishment. Children don't learn respect for adults from these methods--they learn fear and resentment. They don't learn ethics from these methods--they learn how to behave well in front of authority figures and how to avoid getting caught doing what they want to do when no longer under the public eye.

Spanking and other forms of corporal punishment were common when less was known about child development--but I should also note that in many cultures, corporal punishment was rarely practiced. Previous generations of parents practiced these methods because this was all they knew and, as loving parents, they did the best they could. However, child-development specialists have taught us much about the way children think at different stages, and this knowledge can help parents to understand that what still gets labeled as disobedience or willfulness is developmentally appropriate behavior...that also happens to be frustrating, difficult, and annoying for parents (and is often the trigger for spanking out of anger when that's one's only corrective tool). That's why gentle discipline is a fundamentally different way of thinking about parent-child power struggles: it's not about obedience and compliance but about encouraging children's growth into persons of character while keeping them from harm as much as possible, and educating them in age-appropriate ways on how to be caring members of human society. This goal goes beyond "getting kids to mind." It's about helping them to cultivate their minds (their independent thinking, including internalizing a moral compass) and hearts.

On a personal note, I was raised in a non-violent household and never spanked. My parents focused on prevention of behaviors that are unpleasant to adults: giving my brother and me limited choices, having routines, avoiding over-stimulation, etc. When we were little, they redirected us from things they didn't want us to do. When we were older, we experienced the natural consequences of our actions and our parents talked with us about this. I feel that this upbringing taught me to be an ethical person, not someone who unquestioningly accepts and obeys authority with the assumption that it's always just.


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## Peggy O'Mara (Nov 19, 2001)

Dr. William Sears, the prominent attachment parenting guru, is also a Christian parent. He wrote an article for Mothering in which he addresses what the Bible says about spanking and recommends compassion instead of spanking.


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## baileyb (Dec 22, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovebeingamomma*
> 
> *And I had no idea this was the gentle discipline forum, this thread shows up on the home page so I just clicked on it. It's not hard to see that a thread like this would easily become a debate thread. *


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## baileyb (Dec 22, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PacificMar*
> 
> I'm not a huge linguistic or theological expert either, but when I was in college, I seriously considered becoming a rabbi and my understanding of the "rod" image supports CatsCradle's point. In the pastoral culture that was the context for these sacred texts, shepherds didn't use their rods to strike the sheep--the rod was more like a pointer to direct them when getting the herd to move where the shepherd wanted them to go (such as into an enclosure). (I'm guessing they might hav used the staff they also carried to defend the herd from predators.) Hence, the image of the rod suggests the guidance and direction parents give to their offspring rather than physical punishment. The text would then suggest that parents harm their children by refraining from their teaching role.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CatsCradle*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


This is how I took the "rod". As guidance, not a literal rod. And I don't think Christians are banned from Mothering and since they take the bible as the Word they may quote it as why they feel a certain way.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Peggy O'Mara*
> 
> Dr. William Sears, the prominent attachment parenting guru, is also a Christian parent. He wrote an article for Mothering in which he addresses what the Bible says about spanking and recommends compassion instead of spanking.


I think all parents who are not abusive but do spank prefer compassion instead of spanking. I will look at the article. Thank you Peggy.

I didn't see which section this thread was in so I didn't mean to offend anyone who wanted to stay tunnel visioned on this topic. I just had seen it come up the last few days as soon as I logged so I thought I put in my 2 cents. I will go back to my TTC thread which is why I became a MDC member anyway.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BaileyB*
> 
> I think all parents who are not abusive but do spank prefer compassion instead of spanking. I will look at the article. Thank you Peggy.


If you prefer compassion over spanking, MDC is a wonderful resource. In reading your posts I also wanted to mention that a big part of GD is about being knowledgeable about child development. I think your child is quite young and you mentioned that you are around a lot of dangerous equipment. You seemed to imply that you needed to spank because you child is often around the dangers of the farm. I would be remiss if I didn't mention that NO form of discipline is an adequate replacement for supervision at your child's age, especially on a farm like yours.


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## baileyb (Dec 22, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I thought about that when I wrote that, that it might be taken as though she is not always supervised. I just meant in general as she grows up (now that she is becoming more of a toddler than baby) and has more freedom. I have only spanked a few times and I am not sure what the full def of spanking is but it has amounted to 1 swat on diapered and clothed bottom with hand as a last resort. I appreciate your respectful post and I will look into more of the GD resources. I can't think of any reasonable loving parent that wouldn't want alternatives to try.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BaileyB*
> 
> I thought about that when I wrote that, that it might be taken as though she is not always supervised. I just meant in general as she grows up (now that she is becoming more of a toddler than baby) and has more freedom. I have only spanked a few times and I am not sure what the full def of spanking is but it has amounted to 1 swat on diapered and clothed bottom with hand as a last resort. I appreciate your respectful post and I will look into more of the GD resources. I can't think of any reasonable loving parent that wouldn't want alternatives to try.


The GD forum is a great resource!! I think that you will find that, if you are looking for alternatives you will find so many that you never need resort to spanking again. Thank you for your kind words. BTW, one of the easiest books I know of to recommend to all parents is one called, "Becoming the Parent You Want to Be". It's wonderful and very generous about accepting parents from all backgrounds and value systems. I think you'd like it.


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## katealicia (Jun 10, 2012)

I was a high needs child and my parents tried their absolute best to honor my nature and me as a person. But they did not have the language and resources to understand everything that I needed, especially as I got older. They never stopped trying their best with me, but they did get tired after a while of how much I needed. This led to some unwise parenting decisions.

When I was a child I actually preferred spanking to other forms of punishment (such as grounding) because it was immediate and led to resolution. But the point is that punishment is punishment, and it doesn't really work in any form. I still ended up acting impulsively most of the time and living in constant fear of what my punishments would be. I got used to being almost perpetually punished, and eventually when I was older this did lead to defiance and deception. I also agree with previous posters that when the parents are used to using punishments as discipline techniques they will have to escalate over time. For me and DH (whose mother was WAY more authoritarian than my parents) it was not unusual for our parents to call the police when we were teenagers so that we would "know they were serious" about something.

That said, I also agree with the posters who said their parents were just doing the best they could at the time with the knowledge that they had. I was always a willful child and definitely ended up with more spankings than my other siblings combined, but in general my parents were careful to avoid physical punishment. But they replaced it with other punishments like grounding and time-outs that I found to be just as ineffective and hurtful. My mother was improving upon her parents' style in that they were very abusive to her and she didn't want to pass that on to me, and I know that she always loved me, but I don't think that the punishments helped me be a more moral or ethical person.

Luckily my parents also talked to me a lot. They respected me intellectually and we talked about all sorts of moral and ethical issues. They expressed to me what their values were, why they had those values, and they illustrated those values in their lives. These were the things that shaped my moral development and helped me to figure out what kind of person I wanted to be.

My parents weren't perfect, but they weren't abusive either. I was spanked and I turned out very well, but I don't think that that is proof that spanking or other types of punishment are effective tools. Like my parents, I intend to take the best of the way I was raised and leave behind the things that didn't work. This will include not ever hitting my children and trying to avoid parenting techniques that stunt moral development.

I think that it is hard for us to sort through how the way we were raised effects our parenting, just as it was hard for our parents to do the same. For people who still have a good relationship with their parents, we sometimes find ourselves defending practices we know were wrong. But the point is that even if your parents were good parents (like mine) and even if you turned out "ok" (like me), that doesn't mean that everything they did was right. It is our responsibility as parents to take our experiences and new information and continue to try to do our best. For the people here, that means not spanking, which I totally agree with. But I just know that I'm going to do something as a parent that will warrant a future forum post by one of my children as to how wrong I was, so I try not to be too hard on my parents and thank them for what they got right (which is a lot).


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BaileyB*
> 
> This is how I took the "rod". As guidance, not a literal rod. And I don't think Christians are banned from Mothering and since they take the bible as the Word they may quote it as why they feel a certain way.
> 
> I think all parents who are not abusive but do spank prefer compassion instead of spanking. I will look at the article. Thank you Peggy.


My apologies, maybe my post didn't make clear what I was trying to say. I wasn't saying that one should refrain from quoting religious verses. The post was more geared to my thoughts on the interpretation of such, which I think is best suited in the Spirituality forum, mainly because there would probably be more input over there and it is an interpretation question, in my mind.

That being said, it wasn't an attack or swipe at Christians. Many, many people use that verse (or something similar to it) to support spanking...I've even heard professed aetheists use it because they think it contains some kind of over-all wisdom for human-kind. That's how ingrained the concept is in our society. It just seems to me that there are a lot of things written in the ancient verses that we, as a society, have chosen not to practice anymore. I just find it curious that we hold tight to other concepts.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

A shepard's rod is a defense tool. I learned that from a real shepardess twenty years ago. So not using it would be allowing attackers access to your child(ren).

Spanking is about controlling the child when the child is away from you. The example of the farm and the hazards, comes to mind. As well as how the child is dressed. Discipline and control are two different things.


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

It's true that we don't want to host members passing out spanking advice and advocating physical discipline across the forums. But we also want to respectfully reply to members who do post to say things like "spanking is not always bad" "spanking can be necessary" and "I was spanked and I turned out great". After all, there is a child somewhere behind that member's post because it is usually a parent or a potential parent posting it. Take her where she is and discuss it more. Perhaps she jumped into the conversation without reading everything. Or maybe she did read a little, or everything well, and is stuck on her opinion. Either way, respectful discussion has more of a chance of changing her thinking.

Some members may not have the time or inclination to engage in such a discussion, and that's fine. Others can do it. We'll do it. Peggy's post shared some great information that addresses the member's claim to the Christian basis for spanking. Hopefully that will touch this member and get her thinking too. 

Long story short, if we leave a post that is contrary to Mothering's philosophies and purpose on the web it's because we want to keep the door open to respectful discussion to try to introduce people to more gentle, AP and NFL ways rather than shut them down and kick them out of the discussion. And of course, reporting a post helps us see where that is not happening and we need to step in to do it.


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## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

My kids are older now, but I never spanked.

The potential negatives consequences (listed upthread) of spanking made it unacceptable in my eyes, and I could not think of any positives that could not be achieved in a different way.

Why risk the negatives of spanking when you could get the results you wanted through methods that were far less worrisome?

OP, you sound soooo stressed - and it is undoubtably rubbing off on your son, and making any behaviour issues worse and seem worse. I don't think you should spank (that is my opinion) but I can almost guarantee that lowering your stress level somehow (how is your support system?) will decrease his behaviour and increase your ability to handle it.

If you want tips on decreasing your stress level or on how to "hang in there" until you can figure out what to do, please ask! Most posters want to help, and some can offer valuable "been there, done that."

Welcome to the newbies,

kathy


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## Midwesterner04 (Nov 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PacificMar*
> 
> I'm not a huge linguistic or theological expert either, but when I was in college, I seriously considered becoming a rabbi and my understanding of the "rod" image supports CatsCradle's point. In the pastoral culture that was the context for these sacred texts, shepherds didn't use their rods to strike the sheep--the rod was more like a pointer to direct them when getting the herd to move where the shepherd wanted them to go (such as into an enclosure). (I'm guessing they might hav used the staff they also carried to defend the herd from predators.) Hence, the image of the rod suggests the guidance and direction parents give to their offspring rather than physical punishment. The text would then suggest that parents harm their children by refraining from their teaching role.


This!

I, too, fail to see hitting as the Biblical way to "disciple" a child. (As a Christian, I also have a hard time imagining Jesus teaching his disciples by turning them over his knee). The New Testament carries many admonitions concerning respectful care of the vulnerable, and warns against harming "little ones." Whatever Christians do to "the least of these" they do to Jesus.

MDC's spirituality forum has a thread for Christian mamas, and Gentle Christian Mothers is a resource website and forum for parents who do not spank or use CIO, etc, precisely *because* they are Christians.

Dr. Sears's The Complete Book of Christian Parenting might be another resource for the OP.


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## mowilli3 (Jan 7, 2007)

My mother spanked my sister and me and when I first started reading this site, I thought I had been abused as a child. My mom did have a lot of anger and depression, but I have realized that she was under a lot of pressure and it made sense. I don't hit my children in anger. I try not to use spanking at all, but I have spanked my son on his bottom with my hand a few times when he refused to listen or follow my redirection. I love my children. I nursed them until they were both 4. I use GD as much as possible, but on occasion I have spanked. I don't look down on people who do it anymore. I realized that my discipline with my son needed to be very firm after his father and I split up otherwise he was going to establish a pattern of disrespect and uncooperation. After I spanked him and talked to him about my feelings about spanking and his behavior, he improved. For me, it was a way of establishing a very strong boundary that words and gentleness did not get across. I recommend that parents learn to meditate and pray before dealing with their children, then they will have the appropriate discipline for the situation.


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## tittipeitto (Jan 23, 2011)

I would like to see this tread go back to how it started, honesty, openness, helping others find better ways to discipline.... I hung through and read it all, although some of the annoying back and forth arguing I skipped. I hung here because I wanted to post my own, but now I feel less interested in it, because of the nasty tone this thread has developed... But I'll try.

I have my own question, slightly different...

I am totally against spanking and I have never used it as a form of discipline, but I have slapped my older child two or three times in a totally impulsive way, where I had no time to think before I did it! It was not discipline, and I never told my child that I did it because you were bad, or because I love you and I have to... I was terrified by what I did and apologized my child, I wanted to make sure right away that what mommy did was totally wrong and I hope he can forgive me. It was horrible thing to hear a little boy crying and saying, it sure isn't easy to forgive. I hugged and hugged and I would beg for forgiveness and beg for God to make sure he wont remember it when he grows up.

Unfortunately it happened again. Another super tired night, putting kids to sleep alone as always, them testing your patience, then getting a kick in the face from the kid (he did it by accident although as a result of acting out) and totally impulsively I slap back!! it's horrible to see yourself repeat something you are so against.

So I don't need help to find other ways to discipline, because I have my other ways that work well, my kids are not bad at all, they have their freedoms, they know when I'm serious, and they respect me without being afraid of me. Thank goodness the few times I have slapped have not caused them to be afraid of me, or mistrusting of me. I think I have made it clear that I am so sorry. But I still worry about the emotional harm that can do!! I sure would not want anyone in the world hitting my son, and I don't want him to accept it from anyone. So how do I stop myself next time?

The advice to walk away when you are angry etc I use aready. When I loose my temper, get mad about something, it's easy for me to breathe in and change the tone, and go on with a more constructive way. But the times I have slapped have been soo fast, I haven't had time to make a better choice!

I'm guessing I should do something in advance.... Advices have come up to the OP that I could use for myself and might help, like take care of myself and make sure I'm not too stressed and tired and taking it out on my kids. I'm not a single mom, but my husband works around the clock, so in my everyday life I am... I just don't have to also financially support our life.

I hope reading this long threat has maybe helped me... maybe unconsciously I have approved a slap and that is why it has come out. Maybe a deep thinking process to prepare myself for the next super stressed day, or chanting "I do not hit" as if I was a 2 year old.... maybe I need that, or do I need a psychiatrist before my child is emotionally scarred from my impulses?


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## mleawicks (Feb 4, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BaileyB*
> 
> I believe this, too. I have seen some posts stating that they respect their child(ren) too much to spank them but I respect my child too much to not make sure that she knows that things have consequences and that some things are not safe. We are rural and homestead and farm and unschool and if I didn't make sure she understood that when I say not to go play with a certain piece of equipment or play in a certain area or not to eat or drink something that it is not a joke. These aren't just rules because it is my house, it is for her safety. Children need to have lots of time to explore without mom holding their hand and they need to do it safely. I also think that a consequence that is given for the reason of teaching, that is given out by a fair and loving parent is going to be way better than what life is going to give them for consequences. I am not just talking about a consequence as just spanking, but I do use that as a last resort. In my experience when spanking is used only as a last resort, as the child grows there will be less and less spanking because they are going to listen to what you say first and it won't go any further than that.
> 
> I agree with whoever it was that said that not disciplining is also abuse, as well.


thanks. was going to leave. not because someone told me too but because of stress it caused. left FB for reasons similair. wont now. thanks


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## mleawicks (Feb 4, 2012)

And yes I'm not one to spank at every turn.for everything they do wrong.I like both attachment parenting and positive parenting. I do Positive parenting and add in babywearing. She loves it at 2 months, no she has been spanked yet to young, she did yell when dad had her yesterday loudly so I heard her at othert end of house. mom mom mom. yes at 2 months. DH heard it to. very distict


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mowilli3*
> 
> For me, it was a way of establishing a very strong boundary that words and gentleness did not get across.


I agree that this is an important thing to be able to convey to most kids - it certainly has been over the years for my 10 year old. Two things - it is possible to convey this without spanking. For my oldest, we "got down to basics". We cleaned house (both literally and metaphorically). We simplified, reduced activities & stress, got our routine down, eliminated "junk". Second, I'm not sure how old your children are but at some point hitting becomes inappropriate (even if one thinks it's OK). This is when kids are older, in their teens. This is also the time in their life where they are at most risk (statistically) of hurting themselves and it's also the time that I hear it's the most challenging to "control" them. As parents, we do not want to find that the method of discipline we've been using to set strong boundaries is no longer available to us.



> I hope reading this long threat has maybe helped me... maybe unconsciously I have approved a slap and that is why it has come out. Maybe a deep thinking process to prepare myself for the next super stressed day, or chanting "I do not hit" as if I was a 2 year old.... maybe I need that, or do I need a psychiatrist before my child is emotionally scarred from my impulses?


I do think this comes down to a lot of self-care. The end of the day is really hard for me too. Over the years at MDC, I've seen a lot of threads about helping a parent with impulsive spanking. I would hope that you would find a lot of support and compassion for what you're going through.









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mleawicks*
> 
> thanks. was going to leave. not because someone told me too but because of stress it caused. left FB for reasons similair. wont now. thanks


Part of why I like to post on some of these threads is because I find them great practice for GD!! I'll admit that I can get snarky or overly sensitive but I think it's helpful for me to practice keeping cool and maintaining perspective. I would use a thread like this as a barometer for how my general level of stress is. Like someone up thread alluded to, as disciplinarians we need to be able to put a discussion about discipline in perspective. Just as we need to put our child's behavior issues in perspective in order to effectively discipline. Nevertheless, hugs to you too for feeling stressed.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mleawicks*
> 
> And yes I'm not one to spank at every turn.for everything they do wrong.I like both attachment parenting and positive parenting. I do Positive parenting and add in babywearing. She loves it at 2 months, no she has been spanked yet to young, she did yell when dad had her yesterday loudly so I heard her at othert end of house. mom mom mom. yes at 2 months. DH heard it to. very distict


I don't know what this means. Would you like to elaborate so maybe we can help? If you child is 2 months old, you have many, many months (like at least 8-10) before you are doing any sort of behavior stuff. Before that it's 100% about meeting her needs and adequate supervision. Do you have a good book about child development at home? Maybe from the library?

ETA: We have two, perhaps three parents of fairly young children saying that for now they think spanking is likely to be in their future. To this, I have given a lot of though this AM. What I want to say is that you should give yourself and your child the chance at higher expectations. I think you are all spiritual people so let me elaborate...

There is something held in our expectations of ourselves and our children that we tend to live up to. It is put out there in a subtle, subconscious way. You will read often on MDC that we live up or down to the expectations put upon us. I believe this to be true and I have seen it put to the test in my own child. I think that if you expect your child to be a generally well behaved, happy, pleasant child -- they may well be. If you expect that you yourself will be an effective, respected and gentle disciplinarian, you may well be. It may not happen that way but I think the chances of it going in that direction are much greater if you start with that expectation.


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tittipeitto*
> I am totally against spanking and I have never used it as a form of discipline, but I have slapped my older child two or three times in a totally impulsive way, where I had no time to think before I did it! It was not discipline, and I never told my child that I did it because you were bad, or because I love you and I have to... I was terrified by what I did and apologized my child, I wanted to make sure right away that what mommy did was totally wrong and I hope he can forgive me. It was horrible thing to hear a little boy crying and saying, it sure isn't easy to forgive. I hugged and hugged and I would beg for forgiveness and beg for God to make sure he wont remember it when he grows up.
> 
> Unfortunately it happened again. Another super tired night, putting kids to sleep alone as always, them testing your patience, then getting a kick in the face from the kid (he did it by accident although as a result of acting out) and totally impulsively I slap back!! it's horrible to see yourself repeat something you are so against.
> ...


I empathize with you. I think it's safe to assume most moms spanked or came very close to spanking (a slap on the bum qualifies as spanking) at least once in their life with little kids. I know some who didn't, but they have a very strong support system.

It will get better in time. With older kids is easier to reason. Also, what helps me in the heat of the moment is to start singing (ABC song or something silly, and I can sing as loud as I want without screaming at them); the best part is that after a moment of confusion the misbehaving kid joins in. It helps us reconnect.


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## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

What helped when I was younger and the kids were really acting up was to call someone and vent. I usually called my husband (yes, he was at work). I did feel some guilt around calling DH at work to vent, but calling DH and venting really helped me to return to parenting in a more rationale state. He was a great person to call because I could be honest and he did not offer much advice or turn it into his own sob story.

Find someone you can call in the heat of the moment who will listen and knows when to advise and when to just listen. Sometimes you have to ask for what you want - "can I just vent?" so the person is clued in you just want to vent


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## Lookingup (Feb 25, 2006)

This discussion is fascinating and very informative. Thanks, moms!

My husband and I were both raised with spankings. My husband would always say, "and we still turned out well!" And I agreed with him for a long time... but once I started really analyzing it, I have always been a fearful, insecure person who had a hard time making decisions my parents didn't completely approve of. Even now at age 37.

My first son is mildly autistic and a very difficult child. He never slept more than a couple hours at a time til he hit age 5. Everything was (and is) a battle. When his younger brother was born with colic, I literally stopped sleeping. Really, I should have been hospitalized, my life was a nightmare. I found myself spanking more and more. I blamed it on Thomas' difficult behaviors, but really it was me. I needed help, and didn't know where to get it from.

Thomas has issues with physically striking out. Still. And one day I looked at him and thought: how can I tell him this is wrong if I've been doing it myself? How is he supposed to differentiate that??

I never spanked him again.

He will continue to be a hard kid to parent. But I will continue to try different ways to raise him, reading books, and yes, getting more help now. We both have a long way to healing, but stopping spanking is something I'll never regret. I have apologized to him, and am learning to forgive myself. I hope when he is a man he will have a more loving and trusting relationship with me than I do with my own parents. A long journey, but one I am dedicated to traveling.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
> 
> I don't know what this means. Would you like to elaborate so maybe we can help? If you child is 2 months old, you have many, many months (like at least 8-10) before you are doing any sort of behavior stuff. Before that it's 100% about meeting her needs and adequate supervision. Do you have a good book about child development at home? Maybe from the library?
> 
> ...


IdentityCrisisMama: I think you're doing a good job here and I hand over my particular reigns to you. I tend to get too "passionate" about certain issues and often it is hard for me to articulate properly. Thanks for your input and I look forward to reading more!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CatsCradle*
> 
> IdentityCrisisMama: I think you're doing a good job here and I hand over my particular reigns to you. I tend to get too "passionate" about certain issues and often it is hard for me to articulate properly. Thanks for your input and I look forward to reading more!


Oh, no!! I strive to be such a beautiful writer as you -- stay! I get passionate about this issue too, perhaps more than any other parenting issue.


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## Peggy O'Mara (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tittipeitto*
> 
> I would like to see this tread go back to how it started, honesty, openness, helping others find better ways to discipline.... I hung through and read it all, although some of the annoying back and forth arguing I skipped. I hung here because I wanted to post my own, but now I feel less interested in it, because of the nasty tone this thread has developed... But I'll try.
> 
> ...


Be gentle on yourself. It's a process and takes time. If you react impulsively, it means you experienced this yourself as a child and got hardwired to repeat the behavior. It would be good to be able to talk to someone about this, but easier said than done. Maybe you can talk it out with an old friend.

Read books about it, Immerse yourself in new information. I don't think you have unconsciously approved the slap. And, what's important is that you have responded so quickly to apologize.

I found it helpful to post a list of alternatives to spanking on the refrigerator and, like you, felt I had to come back to them again and again. How you stop yourself next time is to keep doing what you're doing, starting over, reflecting, getting help. We model authenticity to our children, not perfection.

Good luck!


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## inkandpaper (Jan 13, 2011)

I used to be for spanking - I was spanked growing up and used to say I turned out fine. And mostly I did. My parents are good people who wanted to discipline us in the best way they could. But as I got older and found myself in positions where I was "supposed" to be in control, I realized that, as calm and gentle of a person as I usually am, when I'm at the end of my rope with anger/frustration/hurt/being overwhelmed, my first impulse is to strike out and hurt someone. I've realized that one can't treat someone violently and expect them to turn out non-violent.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *inkandpaper*
> 
> I used to be for spanking - I was spanked growing up and used to say I turned out fine. And mostly I did. My parents are good people who wanted to discipline us in the best way they could. But as I got older and found myself in positions where I was "supposed" to be in control, I realized that, as calm and gentle of a person as I usually am, when I'm at the end of my rope with anger/frustration/hurt/being overwhelmed, my first impulse is to strike out and hurt someone. I've realized that one can't treat someone violently and expect them to turn out non-violent.


Here's something weird, for me: My parents used Gentle Discipline my entire life. And still, I have rage issues/have had to really work to control my urge to whack the kids sometimes, especially around the 3/4/5 agespan. It was not something I ever thought possible of myself, and yet it is there. I do not like it one single bit and can't help but feel a mixture of shame and WTF. Sooo, even if you raise a child completely nonviolently (not only did my parents not hit me, they also really didn't yell at all - I distinctly remember the first time I heard one of my parent shout/curse - I was SIXTEEN, and completely taken aback), it doesn't mean they might not still struggle with those issues at some point. Sigh. I guess I'm really glad they *were* so gentle and I didn't have the rage/aggression modeled, or I probably *would* have been a spanking parent.


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## StudyingStones (May 16, 2012)

I thought I'd chime in here, for what it's worth...

I am 28 and was raised by both my mom and step-dad to believe that spanking is wrong and unnecessary. In our family home we always resolved our issues by sitting at the table together and having a conversation. Once I reached my rebellious teen years, the relationship I had with my step-dad changed dramatically (he is my step-dad, but he is my father. He has been the only father I have ever known). He felt out of control because I no longer did exactly what he wanted to, and I don't think I would have been as comfortable speaking my mind and going through that rebellious stage if I had a history of him spanking... I was afraid enough of the way he would yell and raise his voice almost constantly, that if he had added spanking into the mix, there is no way we would have had any kind of trusting relationship.

Now at 28 we have a great relationship, and he has a wonderful relationship with my son too. I learned a lot from my parents.. things to avoid and things to do differently, but one of the things I took most for granted was that we don't ever spank, and that there is always a different way to deal with situations with our kids.

Just my two cents!


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## Peggy O'Mara (Nov 19, 2001)

I agree with the last two posters. There are others things to do instead of spanking. And, rage and anger are the real challenges behind the actions. Anger happens quickly and goes away quickly. It's like a spark. Rage is about unfinished business from the past.

Thich Nhat Hahn says to hold our anger like a baby, to hold it over our shoulder and pat its back. We are often so afraid of our anger--afraid that we're bad for feeling it--that we feel guilty. But, anger is just an emotion. It is not who we are.

"Anger is like a howling baby, suffering and crying.
Your anger is your baby. The baby needs his mother
to embrace him. You are the mother.
Embrace your baby."

Thich Nhat Hahn

This is from Ten Verses to Tame Anger.

It's all about self-knowledge and self-forgiveness and mindfulness. And, ultimately, what our children learn from us is not how to be perfect, but how to be authentic. That is, how do we get up and start over when we've made a mess of things or when things have fallen apart on their own.

We are not responsible for everything that happens, but we can be responsible for our response. And, we can be gentle on ourselves at the same time that we hold the line on physical punishment and verbal abuse. It's a process of learning to be more of the person we want to be. It lasts a lifetime.


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## Hippie Mom 32 (Aug 21, 2012)

Personally, I dont agree with spanking unless its necessary, example I see my child doing someting that could kill her, if i have warned her about it from before, Next I was spanked , not spaked abused by my stepfather for being an old child, It does nothing but leave scars, making the child hate the parent and them not learning anything, and I think it actually teaching them to hit others. I dont know i seem some kids that are spanked that are behaved and other that it dosent work.


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## mowilli3 (Jan 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
> 
> I agree that this is an important thing to be able to convey to most kids - it certainly has been over the years for my 10 year old. Two things - it is possible to convey this without spanking. For my oldest, we "got down to basics". We cleaned house (both literally and metaphorically). We simplified, reduced activities & stress, got our routine down, eliminated "junk". Second, I'm not sure how old your children are but at some point hitting becomes inappropriate (even if one thinks it's OK). This is when kids are older, in their teens. This is also the time in their life where they are at most risk (statistically) of hurting themselves and it's also the time that I hear it's the most challenging to "control" them. As parents, we do not want to find that the method of discipline we've been using to set strong boundaries is no longer available to us.


I agree with you, and I'd like to stress the point that spanking is one of many forms of communication and discipline. I've used it only a few times in the 7 years that I've parented two children through extremely stressful times with no family support. So, I have a big bag full of lots of tricks. Yes, there are lots of ways to convey a message about boundaries to a child as well as to adults, but some people in some situations will only respond to force. You have to know yourself and the person you are dealing with to be effective without causing harm.

I love the references to Buddhist philosophy, but even Buddhist have a place for forceful communication. Shambhala teaches that you may have to strike a person to stop them from doing something unloving. It's not compassionate to allow a person to continue to treat you with disrespect, and in those times when you have to be forceful, you need to be mindful of your reaction and the consequences that follow.

I don't believe that you can control anyone, not even a small child, so for me, spanking my son was not about getting him to do what I wanted him to do. It was about letting him know that I absolutely would not tolerate being talked to with disrespect or tolerate his wild tantrums in public when he did not get his way. I've learned that we have to continue to set boundaries throughout your lives, with all people. And in my many different roles, I deal with many different people, some of who care about others and some who do not. I deal with them accordingly, as lovingly as possible.

One thing I don't like about MDC is that it feels like we are all these wounded children trying not to wound our own children. These kinds of threads foster that notion as people gather to talk about how their parents affected them. Can we stop blaming our current reactions on our parents' behavior? At some point we become creations of our own will. Can we be "OK" and let that be enough? All things exist for a reason and there is a time and a place for everything. People here (including me) can't tell you the right thing to do. We will only confuse each other with our references to painful pasts. Go inside yourself, meditate, pray, and ask for wisdom. The truth will come, and you will become closer to your children by becoming closer to yourself.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mowilli3*
> 
> I agree with you, and I'd like to stress the point that spanking is one of many forms of communication and discipline. I've used it only a few times in the 7 years that I've parented two children through extremely stressful times with no family support. So, I have a big bag full of lots of tricks. Yes, there are lots of ways to convey a message about boundaries to a child as well as to adults, but some people in some situations will only respond to force. You have to know yourself and the person you are dealing with to be effective without causing harm.
> 
> ...


I say this all gently and based on my own moral underbelly:

The first bolded part: * "I don't believe you can control anyone...so for me, spanking my son was not about getting to do what I wanted him to do...It was about letting him know that I absolutely would not tolerate being talked to with disrespect or tolerate..." *

My honest question is this: why is that not about control? I see the point you are trying to make that it is about "teaching." But, ultimately it is about control in my opinion. "You don't do what I say and [respect me for that matter]..." (see what I mean...it is both about what you require). Physical punishment is physical punishment...there are no grey areas in my opinion. It's still control, no matter what way you spin it. Spanking is a form of punishment to get the person do what you want them to do. I believe in consequences. I just don't believe that you have to hit in order to achieve those consequences. I'm going to go out on a limb here and I know I'll be flamed, but torture is a way to get people to say what you want them to say. Fear of pain produces results because people are afraid of pain. People subject to torture don't "confess" because it is the right thing to do or that it is even true. They confess because they want to avoid pain, shame, humiliation. They confess because they are afraid, not because what they say is true or has any basis in truth. Falsehoods are better than truth because falsehoods stop the pain. That is the underlying problem with torture and many people and organizations recognize that pain produces little to zero results.

Second bolded part: *"Can we stop blaming our current reactions on our parents' behavior?"*

Short answer: no one is blaming their parents, but we can learn from our parents' mistakes. Long answer: I learn and have learned from what history has taught us, including what I learned to be inappropriate methods used by my parents, schlock science and psychoanalysis, marketing and religious stuff that I don't subscribe to anymore. It's not about blame, it's about growth and learning and finding one's way and coming to an understanding that just because it was good in the "old days" doesn't mean that it is right or applicable now (I don't care if it is a 1000-year-old Buddhist philosophy or if it is being proposed by the main stream media). The tired old argument is "my parents did it and I'm not messed up and therefore it must work" is just that...tired. Just because people used to think certain things worked doesn't mean anything given what we know now. I could say that about the mugging and assaults where I was physically held down by the neck which I experienced not on one, but on two occasions. I could say that I'm happy now (after those assaults) and a normal person and I learned my lesson not to make stupid decisions to walk around at midnight and that now I'm more aware because of the assault...more apt to make the right decision because someone slapped me down. I didn't have to go to the hospital and there were no physical signs of my assault, but someone exerted physical power of me and let me know that they were the "boss." I didn't want to suffer more. Why? Because I'm a biological being and biological beings recoil from pain and humiliation. Sorry to be harsh but I can't seem to differentiate the two physical acts of spanking vs. act of pushing my neck against a wall to bring me into submission, so to speak. And, now that I think about it, submission is the key word here. To be frank, I resent my parents for spanking and I resent my assaulters for pushing me against a wall by the neck because both intruded on my physical person and both did so in order for me to comply. Neither of these scenarios were teachable moments in the broader sense. Sure, they taught me to be afraid, but that's about it. Compliance was the only option. Compliance was the only thing I learned. I find that rather disturbing.

Sorry, I said earlier up-thread that I wouldn't respond anymore in this thread, but I feel compelled because I feel so strongly about this issue. Again, I've experienced physical invasion of my person both as a child and as an adult. Both are on the same plain. Both involve getting to me to comply (no matter what the person's subjective intent). Both made me very angry and although I learned to live with the concept that the people were doing it because of what was "due to me" for my various actions, I think both were wrong, despite one person's intent to get me to "do the right thing" and others' intent to get me to hand over my valuables. I have no problem with announcing that I think what my parents did was wrong, and I can move on by acknowledging that I will not repeat what they did. The best way for me to protest, in my opinion, is to reject their methods (loudly if I have to) and not repeat.

Edited to say that I'm sorry I get so emotional about this. It's one of those things that really gets me riled up. LOL. I appreciate everyone else's very moderate approach to this subject. I wish I had more self control.


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

I agree that we should stop using the argument "my parents spanked me and I turned out fine." So what? My parents never spanked me and I turned out fine, too. It's not really relevant.


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## tittipeitto (Jan 23, 2011)

Thank you Peggy and others for the great answers. I was also surprised to read from The4OfUs, who said her parents used gentle discipline on her and she still really has to control her urge.

See, my parents never spanked us, I tried to remember if it had ever happened, but picturing my mom hitting me was absurd. I watched a cousin get slapped for just existing and always felt really terrible at their house... When I once hit my sister, my mom asked my sister to do the same to me, but my sister couldn't. Oh my I will never forget how ashamed I was that day, she could not be as bad as me, even with moms permission. So I guess I was impulsive and violent already then and this experience haunting me has made me think of myself as a violent person?

I was physically assaulted in college, with sexual intentions and for a while I wanted to carry a bat with me and hit any man who dared to look at me... But it's hard for me to think that this experience would make me impulsive around my kids. On the contrary, I should be impulsed to protect them from any harm!!

But anyways, I think Peggy's responses will help me out, and I've done a lot of thinking and haven't had the impulse lately... not that it ever happened that often... but hopefully I can trust myself that I am on a path to be better.


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## Peggy O'Mara (Nov 19, 2001)

It's easier for me now as an older person to look back and see the process. I thought as a younger person that as soon as I thought of something, I should be able to implement it. Now I know that change doesn't happen that way. We have to think about making a change for a while, make the change and then it takes time to implement the change. They say that the best indicator of being able to change is the ability to start over. Think of the person who quits smoking. If they give up when they mess up and have a cigarette they will just go back to smoking again and feel like a failure. But, the key is to let go of the self blame and just get back focused on the goal, to start over. We have to do that with our kids all the time.

For me, learning gentle discipline was/is like learning a new language. I had reminders on my refrigerator, read a bunch of books, had the privilege of being able to interview great thinkers. It really helped to immerse myself in the new way of thinking about children so I could have a model to follow.

Here are some books that I found helpful when I was a young parent:

Summerhill: A Radical Approach to Child Rearing

The Magic Years: Understanding and Handling the Problems of Early Childhood

The Child Under Six

Between Parent and Child

Liberated Parents, Liberated Children: Your Guide to a Happier Family

How to Talk So Your Kids Will Listen and Listen So Your Kids Can Talk.

What books have you all found helpful to learn new ways of gentle discipline?


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

what has really helped me with GD has actually NOT been reading gentle discipline books. i mean yeah i read them, it made sense, but when i was actually facing a situation IRL all what i read went out the window.

what truly helped me was reading the series by Louis Ames Bates. http://www.amazon.com/Your-Two-Year-Old-Louise-Bates-Ames/dp/0440506387

i had to understand what my child was going therough. i had to see my child differently. its a way of seeing that was never shown to me before. society assumes you understand that. like for instance when dd was a new one year old i realized i was getting angry with her because i was taking her actions personally. duh! you would expect me get it that she is young and she is just being herself. but no i had been always used to being pushed for a personal reason.

just understanding that really changed my life. i read those books religiously from babyhood to age 4. because it helped me gain compassion towards my child. instead of getting angry i would be so empathec. poor thing she is so emotional. in fact sometimes i would be laughing because she was so ridiculous. how can a one year old have so mauch anger that she would be flat out on hte street screaming.

i also learnt the 3 golden rule - rest, exercise and full belly.

to me understanding children is what helped me on my road to GD.

however having a v. hormonal almost 10 year old i am being challenged again. not that i am going to spank my child but i discover i am 'spanking' my child whtough words. silence and empathy is still VERY important. more actually than less.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


> however having a v. hormonal almost 10 year old i am being challenged again. not that i am going to spank my child but i discover i am 'spanking' my child whtough words. silence and empathy is still VERY important. more actually than less.


You too? I'm off to my DC's school orientation where they always give us a copy of a chapter from the child development book the school uses. I'll post here when I get back with the name of the book.

For books we loved:


Becoming the Parent You Want to Be 
Unconditional Parenting 
Taking Children Seriously 
A good child development text book


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## Christalena (Dec 9, 2010)

For another fantastic book, Self Esteem: A Family Affair by Jean Illsley Clarke


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

My all-time favourite is "Kids Are Worth It!" by Barbara Coloroso.

Also, I just finished "Parenting without Power Struggles", which I found useful.


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## Peggy O'Mara (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> what truly helped me was reading the series by Louis Ames Bates. http://www.amazon.com/Your-Two-Year-Old-Louise-Bates-Ames/dp/0440506387
> 
> ...


Thanks for the Bates suggestion.

And, thanks for the 3 golden rule. So true! Most problems with kids are because of low blood sugar or being tired. Us too!


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## graciegal (Jun 2, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LexiDrewMama*
> 
> I was raised by a mother who spanked me quite often. I never learned anything from those spankings, but I did fear her. A child should never fear a parent. I have always felt that raising a child with respect and kindness teaches respect and kindness. Violence teaches violence. Once I was grown and my mother and I had developed a working relationship we were able to talk about the spanking and she regrets it... I don't want that for me or for my daughter.


I was spanked just a few times by my dad and I feared doing things that might make him upset at me. And thank heavens too, it kept me on the straight and narrow through my teenage years and I LOVE my father for all he is worth now. Just because a parent spanks doesn't mean the kid turns out bad or hates the parent, just wanted to mention that.


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## Russi (Sep 4, 2011)

I know I might get in trouble again but I have a boy that called his mother 4 letter words and showed the finger when he was about 10 years old. We had him in therapy and the therapist told us that spanking might work. But it has to be done the right way. Before somebody yells at me again for child abuse I must say that after one year it was the one and only spanking I gave him and since them I have not heard any more f or b words. For him it worked and I am so happy I did it. But as I said it has to be done with love. I do not want to promote violence toward children at all. If you are interested e-mail me and I am happy to communicate with you.


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## AmandaT (Jul 12, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Russi*
> 
> ... one and only spanking I gave him... For him it worked and I am so happy I did it. But as I said it has to be done with love. *I do not want to promote violence toward children at all*. If you are interested e-mail me and I am happy to communicate with you.


Bolding mine.

What is spanking if not violence?

I'm glad that it seemed to work out with this child, and for now only needed to be done once. However, there are many other tactics that can be used with children that do not involve ANY violence. What will you do if he resumes the behavior at 14 or 16?


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

i agree with PP.

to me spanking is violence (please forgive me if i come off as high handed. this is a v. trigger issue for me).

not only because i think so. but because it completely HORRIFIES dd.

the thing is well if its ok to spank even once (which i did once in reflex mode and still find it hard to forgive myself) then should not our children have the same right? why is their need less important than us. why cant they hit us for not complying and so why should we complain if they hit us.

i have been hit in a loving way. doesnt matter if it was in a loving way. i was still hit. hitting is hitting. at each moment it broke my heart that my dad would raise his hand to someone he called the apple of his eye. i could not get that.

i could NEVER EVER think of hitting dd. to me that is a failure in my books. i discovered there was no reason to do that. i talked. i explained. i said how what dd did affected me. i explained society norms. i diverted, distracted and taught her how a stove was hot so dangerous, what a soft touch on the cat meant instead of hitting a cat. how running in teh street would break your body and mama and dadddy would cry and cry and cry and life would never be the same again. sometimes dd wouldnt understand my words. that meant she didnt have to do what i say. it meant she still needed supervision in that area.

at 10 which is what my dd is now, i would NEVER EVER think of EVER raising my finger on her. i wouldnt even think of it. i would see the word and gesture as a sign of extreme frustration and anger and work on how to help her deal with those feelings. thinking about my experience not repeating it has everything to do with fear, never love and i NEVER EVER want my dd to fear me. which she doesnt.

to me if dd is ever afraid of me - that would be total failure in my books.


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## Peggy O'Mara (Nov 19, 2001)

It can seem that because something turns out OK, it was justified, but the end does not justify the means. And, while we obviously can love even those who abuse us, hitting another person is abuse. It is called abuse when someone feels entitled to power or control over another.


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## Russi (Sep 4, 2011)

Thank you for your responds. I respect your opinions and for the most part I agree. You should never ever hit your child in anger. Also you should never scream at them or make them feel unworthy. It would be ideal if we never had to discipline our children's at all. Time out, taken away privileges grounding can also be painful and disrupt the family life. Sending a specific child to there room alone can be abuse too. The best consequence for an action is the one you don't have to give at all. Like most questions in life the question of spanking or not is not black or white. It lays somewhere between. Every child and situation is different.

I am very happy if no parents have to spank there child ever. It is not as easy as telling the child that it can not have TV for a week or is grounded for the weekend. If that works for your child great, but if not I can not let the entire family suffer for month when I can end a specific bad habit by giving him a spanking.


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

nt


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## Midwesterner04 (Nov 19, 2009)

I see that you are new here, Russi. Welcome! You may be interested to check out other threads and recommended resources throughout Mothering's Gentle Discipline forum--there are lots of good ideas for avoiding the month-long groundings, angry time-outs, and similar punishments you seem concerned about. Best of luck!


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## Peggy O'Mara (Nov 19, 2001)

Russi, I appreciate your point of view, but we're not into defending or condoning spanking here at Mothering. The evidence is overwhelming that spanking is harmful. It is not just an opinion. I'm happy to offer you resources to understand this point of view, but want to make it clear that we're not here to debate the virtues of spanking. There is no debate.


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## elus0814 (Sep 21, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Peggy O'Mara*
> 
> It is called abuse when someone feels entitled to power or control over another.


I understand the point you're making but what is a parent if not a person who has power and control over their children? If, in my capacity as a parent, I did not have any power or control my children would be running the show. I do think children can/should be asked their opinions on various matters but that does not mean the parent gives up power and control.

For example, I have the power to put my kids in public school even though they enjoy being homeschooled. Yes, I do feel entitled to that power as their parent but I do not think that feeling like I should have the power to send my children to whatever school I see fit to send them to equates to me being an abusive person.

As far as control goes - as a parent I am entitled to feed my children what I want as long as they're healthy, nourished, and growing. I am not obligated to feed them corn flakes or turnips or anything. I, as their parent, have control over what they eat (and wear and who they play with and so on). I don't use the power and control I have to starve them or make them wear rags but I'm still in control nonetheless.

A parent using the power and control they're entitled to in a way that hurts their children would be abuse, but having or feeling entitled to that power and control is not abuse.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Russi*
> 
> Thank you for your responds. I respect your opinions and for the most part I agree. *You should never ever hit your child in anger.* Also you should never scream at them or make them feel unworthy. It would be ideal if we never had to discipline our children's at all. Time out, taken away privileges grounding can also be painful and disrupt the family life. Sending a specific child to there room alone can be abuse too. The best consequence for an action is the one you don't have to give at all. Like most questions in life the question of spanking or not is not black or white. It lays somewhere between. Every child and situation is different.
> 
> I am very happy if no parents have to spank there child ever. It is not as easy as telling the child that it can not have TV for a week or is grounded for the weekend. If that works for your child great, but if not I can not let the entire family suffer for month when I can end a specific bad habit by giving him a spanking.


While I agree with this, I think I am typically more understanding of a parent who loses her cool and smacks a kid than one who is planning to spank and doing it intentionally with an intended result.

Personally, I think most people slip up and make mistakes. We apologize for them and move on- but IMO planning to spank and doing it as punishment or as a way to "show" a child that they cant do a certain thing is worse than losing your cool.


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## AmandaT (Jul 12, 2012)

I completely agree.


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *elus0814*
> 
> I understand the point you're making but what is a parent if not a person who has power and control over their children?


Yes, indeed! That is the question, isn't it? What is a parent? Do you have to have "power" to be a parent, or is it something else?

I can't possibly agree with you that making dinner for your kids is an example of how you have control over them. You're not controlling them, you're catering. If cooking for someone means you control them, the chef at my favourite restaurant is my overlord by now.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Well, you likely control what you're feeding them by controlling what come into the house. Most parents (note, I wrote most) do not ask their children every meal every day what they want......at some point the parent decided what kind of food they wanted to feed the kid and made that the available food in the house; something a child has no control over since they can't get to the store and buy their own. If you go to a restaurant and don't like what'sbeing served as an adult, you can go elsewhere.

Every decision a parent makes about restricting access to anything or stop a child from doing something they want to is a measure of control. It's not necessarily a bad thing, unless you abuse it.


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## Mittsy (Dec 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *elus0814*
> 
> I understand the point you're making but what is a parent if not a person who has power and control over their children?


I personally don't believe parents "need" to have control over children. I try to respect my child's opinion and take that into consideration at all times, I always strive to treat them as I would anyone else, and I would never try to control another adult! My children listen to me not only because they respect me and my opinions but also because they know that I always will try to take their opinions into consideration and find a mutually agreeable option that everyone can live with.


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## elus0814 (Sep 21, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mittsy*
> 
> I personally don't believe parents "need" to have control over children. I try to respect my child's opinion and take that into consideration at all times, I always strive to treat them as I would anyone else, and I would never try to control another adult! My children listen to me not only because they respect me and my opinions but also because they know that I always will try to take their opinions into consideration and find a mutually agreeable option that everyone can live with.


Since you simply 'take into consideration' your child's opinions you have control. If your child was the one who made decisions after considering your opinion they would be the one in control. If your child's opinion was that they should be allowed to color all over the walls and you said no you would be controlling them. I admit that it's an odd way to think about parenting but I do think that it's control nonetheless.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *elus0814*
> 
> Since you simply 'take into consideration' your child's opinions you have control. If your child was the one who made decisions after considering your opinion they would be the one in control. If your child's opinion was that they should be allowed to color all over the walls and you said no you would be controlling them. I admit that it's an odd way to think about parenting but I do think that it's control nonetheless.


I see parenting as more of a mentor/mentee relationship. The mentor usually knows more, has more experience, is more qualified to make final decisions on the best course. I mentor people in my profession and I'm also mentored by people with more experience and insight. My mentors have considered my ideas and have offered advice on why they think certain ideas are not the best course. They would not put me in a position of falling on my face if they can find a more teachable way, so to speak. A mentor/mentee relationship is mentee-centered. In other words, it is the mentor's primary responsibility to make sure that the mentee is on the right course and has the proper tools to make the right decisions. I don't find that to be controlling, but rather a guidance relationship. A boss is controlling. A mentor is someone who uses his/her skills and experience to set someone on the proper course.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I appreciate that and do strive for that kind of relationship when my kids are acting reasonably but really, if your kid wants to do something unsafe or destructive, and you cannot distract/redirect/alternate activity your way out of it, you're going to wind up preventing them from doing it somehow - which is controlling, not advising. I think a LOT of this has to do with 1) How many kids are involved in the situation and 2) their temperaments.

One easygoing/compliant kid? Mentor away and enjoy the harmony! (For the record, I was this kid and had an easy breezy childhood)

2 headstrong, opinionated (often not the same opinion), loophole finders? It'll be Lord Of The Flies all up in there. Ask me how I know.
















More than 2? It hurts my head to think about.


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

I like the definition I found in "Parenting without power struggles". I also don't want (and can't) be in control of everything my child does, but I can be in charge.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

We do have control over our children, but it seems like our job is to move to where we control less and less and they control themselves more and more until they become adults. Control is something that happens naturally due to the relationship we have, and I don't think it should be enforced with any kind of violence.

I guess my big point is that we don't need to force kids to get used to our having control, we need to work with them to learn to control themselves internally and not need our control. I think any kind of heavy-handed discipline is contrary to that, but particularly anything that uses physical pain. I'm a big fan of working with and not doing to as we teach our kids to not need our control. Working with them is a better way of getting them to have the internal motivation they'll need to control themselves when they grow up. Doing to them is only a way of getting them to behave until they are away from your external control.


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## Mittsy (Dec 29, 2009)

elus0814: I guess we have different viewpoints about this. I don't really think about "who has control over this situation", instead I try to focus on everyone's feelings and needs being heard and trying to find a workable solution for everybody. I guess I think of my relationship with my children as more of a mentor, like CatsCradle described.

CatsCradle: You said what I was trying to so much more eloquently than I did! Thanks

The4ofus: I think anyone can parent any child in this way regardless of the number or tempermentality of the children. Although certainly I image certain families may find it more challenging. I personally think how easy it will come to one parent versus another has little to do with the temperament of the child and much more to do with the temperament of the parent. I myself have 1 easygoing though very sensitive child, and 1 very "spirited" child, and I personally find the "spirited" child much easier to relate to and work with while admittedly the sensitive child's whining can grate on my nerves a bit.


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## elus0814 (Sep 21, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *The4OfUs*
> 
> I appreciate that and do strive for that kind of relationship when my kids are acting reasonably but really, if your kid wants to do something unsafe or destructive, and you cannot distract/redirect/alternate activity your way out of it, you're going to wind up preventing them from doing it somehow - which is controlling, not advising. I think a LOT of this has to do with 1) How many kids are involved in the situation and 2) their temperaments.
> 
> ...


I couldn't help but laugh at the lord of the flies comment. It's so very true. Get a gaggle of strong willed children together and you can't just not have someone in control. Not counting the baby we have four little kids who often each want to have their own messy, destructive, and/or unsafe thing going on. I can mentor my kids all day long but when one decides to climb up the pantry shelves to get a jar of peanut butter off the top shelf then eat it with their hands you can bet I'll exert my power to stop them.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *elus0814*
> 
> I couldn't help but laugh at the lord of the flies comment. It's so very true. Get a gaggle of strong willed children together and you can't just not have someone in control. Not counting the baby we have four little kids who often each want to have their own messy, destructive, and/or unsafe thing going on. I can mentor my kids all day long but when one decides to climb up the pantry shelves to get a jar of peanut butter off the top shelf then eat it with their hands you can bet I'll exert my power to stop them.


When I referred to mentoring above, I didn't mean that the relationship allowed for putting someone in harms way, or allowing them to potentially harm themselves by not intervening. My problem with the word "control" is that it has a lot of negative connotations, at least for me. My parents were very controlling. We weren't allowed to express our own thoughts and I spent much of my youth with internal rage because my parents always took the position that they were the boss. My relationship with my parents was extremely oppressive. I think it had a negative impact on me in my adult life because either I was always trying to please someone, or I was afraid to speak up if I thought something was wrong or if it should be done another way. The "relationship" as a mentoring one in the long term makes more sense to me. Does that mean that when my kid is in danger that I'm not going to act to remove her from harm's way, of course not. I also believe in consequences. I still experience consequences when I do something stupid. Consequences, though, are about teachable moments for me. It's not about someone controlling me but rather me learning a certain level of self-control through realization that there are consequences to my negative actions.

If you want to call what you do "control" that is fine. I just don't see my relationships, as a whole, that way. I guess I'm looking at the broader picture rather than certain circumstances. We can pick apart the word control all we want but in general terms my relationship with my kid is not about control. It's about teaching and guidance.


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## elus0814 (Sep 21, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CatsCradle*
> 
> When I referred to mentoring above, I didn't mean that the relationship allowed for putting someone in harms way, or allowing them to potentially harm themselves by not intervening. My problem with the word "control" is that it has a lot of negative connotations, at least for me. My parents were very controlling. We weren't allowed to express our own thoughts and I spent much of my youth with internal rage because my parents always took the position that they were the boss. My relationship with my parents was extremely oppressive. I think it had a negative impact on me in my adult life because either I was always trying to please someone, or I was afraid to speak up if I thought something was wrong or if it should be done another way. The "relationship" as a mentoring one in the long term makes more sense to me. Does that mean that when my kid is in danger that I'm not going to act to remove her from harm's way, of course not. I also believe in consequences. I still experience consequences when I do something stupid. Consequences, though, are about teachable moments for me. It's not about someone controlling me but rather me learning a certain level of self-control through realization that there are consequences to my negative actions.
> 
> If you want to call what you do "control" that is fine. I just don't see my relationships, as a whole, that way. I guess I'm looking at the broader picture rather than certain circumstances. We can pick apart the word control all we want but in general terms my relationship with my kid is not about control. It's about teaching and guidance.


My mom was like that. I would be watching tv and she would walk in, grab the remote, and change the channel. If I protested she would tell me it was her house and her tv. Everything had to be her way.

I agree with you that parents should be mentors to their children, someone they can learn how to be an adult from.

I called what most consider normal parenting control because that's what was brought up. It's an odd way to think about it, I generally wouldn't call parenting a form of control but I think it is control when a parent stops a child from doing something they want to do. Control comes in different forms. I think 'controlling' a child in the sense that you are teaching them right from wrong is a good thing. They need to learn it's not ok to throw water balloons out of attic windows and they might need someone to control their access to balloons for them to learn that lesson. As a child I liked taking long showers. I kept doing it even when told not to so my mom would give me a certain amount of time, wait for the timer to go off, then turn off the hot water. Yes, she was controlling the way I showered but as a child I had a hard time connecting my long shower with a higher electricity bill the next month.


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## RobbynPBennett (Oct 23, 2012)

Spanking is clearly destructive, but most dangerous with toddlers and preschoolers. The developing brain of a child is vulnerable and any form of violence increases risk of long-term problems.

I wanted to share with you an incredibly important project for children and mothers.

We are trying to produce a documentary to help start a meaningful dialogue about the negative effects of spanking and the common cultural acceptance of its practice.

Thank you!
Robbyn Peters Bennett



> Link removed per our advertising user agreement:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## RobbynPBennett (Oct 23, 2012)

The research seems to overwhelmingly show that spanking has negative outcomes, many of which are not evident until much later. I have a Facebook site and website that has a lot of information on the research, if any mommies are interested!



> RobbynPBennet, please place these links in your profile.


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## luckymolly (Nov 3, 2012)

I think the simple fact that spanking hurts, both physically and emotionally, would be sufficient argument against it, even if there were no negative short or long term effects.


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## annie-laurie (Jan 7, 2007)

thanks


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## annie-laurie (Jan 7, 2007)

my opion of your hubby 'respecting' his father is that this is what kids want, a role model, someone to respect.

Had he not spanked, he might've been respected too. And, the relationship would be a bit different, perhaps.

I believe that if spanking is used impulsively, or with any frequency, we are losing the point of raising kids to understand and act and cause no harm, regardless of their own irritability.


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## Hippie Mom 32 (Aug 21, 2012)

My daughter is six years and I find that spanking does nothing, it really makes it worse and does not solve the problem, and I find it makes the afraid of you.

Also it teaches them to think that hitting is ok.


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## mylittlerune (Jan 4, 2014)

Kids usually don't get the difference between spanking and hitting, and trying to explain it to them usually doesn't help. I spanked a couple of times when it seemed like all else failed, and the last time I did my daughter asked me why I would try to hurt her, and why its ok to hit her when she is bad. I was creating a large amount of fear, mistrust, and many other negative emotions within her as well as confusing her about what was right and wrong and I didn't even realize I was doing it. Other parents I've spoken to have related similar experiences. That was the last time I spanked her.

Kids may not always be able to verbalize it, but they really don't get it, they don't understand why you would want to hurt them or scare them, and really, why would you? Maybe you feel that the spanks are soft enough not to hurt, but you are still creating a fear in them that you could hurt them or swat them if you don't like what they are doing.

You can do so many things that teach self discipline without ever doing something that causes pain or fear of pain, and many other types of discipline create trust in your parent-child relationship and rather than fear, mistrust, and negative emotions. Good luck!


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