# Help! I'm feeling ostracized.



## margaret mayhem (Mar 31, 2008)

DS is 2 ½. We've been going to the neighborhood playgroup since he was a few months old. He's now frequently the oldest or close to oldest at play group (seems like most families around here put their kids in daycare or preschool by 2 or 3 yo), though there are other kids his age who are often there. For the past 6 months or so he's gotten more aggressive-hitting, throwing toys, etc. At first it really seemed like he was just experimenting to see what would happen when he did X. Now it seems less like that and maybe more related to power/control (e.g. I see him about to do something like throw a truck, call out for him to stop, and he rushes to do the thing before I can stop him). I've recently learned that, as I suspected, there's been talk among the other playgroup parents about not wanting their kids to play with my son. I understand, and yet I feel miserable. I liked going so I could socialize with other adults, so my kid could play with other kids, etc. Now I'm embarrassed, frustrated, sad, and don't want to go back.









His aggressive (defiant?) behavior does not happen all the time, though he is very high energy, especially with other kids. For instance, he likes to play 'tackle.' That I don't think is about aggression-he has played tackle with older cousins and has a great time. It just doesn't work with kids his age or younger, for obvious reasons. I've struggled with how to cope with these different behaviors. Time outs didn't work and I didn't like them anyway, so we don't do those any more. Recently when he does something I've been picking him up and going to a different part of the room to give him a chance to settle down and to explain why what he just did isn't okay. He'll often say "I won't do it again" (though I haven't asked him to say that-he volunteers it) then goes back out, plays well for a bit, then starts throwing/pushing/etc. I've been trying to read books for help (Dr. Sears' "Discipline Book," "Unconditional Parenting," which I found lacked good concrete suggestions for dealing with problems; just starting "How to Talk So Your Kids Will Listen&#8230;") but somehow I think I need something different. For one thing, I don't know how much is really worrisome behavior and how much is him being a super-energetic 2 year old who hasn't yet learned impulse control. Many of the other parents only have a child or children younger than my son, so I wonder if it's partly that their kid hasn't gotten to this stage and so it's easy to look at my son and think "my kid would never do something like that."

Anyway, I partly just want to hear that I'm not a horrible parent with a horrible child. But I'd also love some concrete suggestions. Would it make sense to have someone watch his/our interactions and give advice? If so, how would I find someone like that who embraces gentle discipline? I don't want "Supernanny."









Thanks.


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## Bellejar (Oct 2, 2005)

The consequence of her pushing others around became leaving. I told her if she was rough she would not be able to play with other children, because they would not want to play with her. Cured her of this behavior, rather quickly. Good luck this was really hard for me - so I know where you are coming from.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

It sounds to me like he needs MUCH closer supervision when playing with this group of kids. If you're across the room and can't get to him before he throws a truck, maybe you need to be "shadowing" him so you can grab his hand before he has a chance to throw anything.

Yeah, that would eliminate the chance to sit back and chit-chat while he plays, and it may no longer be worth your time, but it just sounds like he's not currently in a developmental place where he can safely play with a large group of kids his age and younger.


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## Monda (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bellejar* 
*The consequence of her pushing others around became leaving. I told her if she was rough she would not be able to play with other children, because they would not want to play with her.* Cured her of this behavior, rather quickly. Good luck this was really hard for me - so I know where you are coming from.

This is a great idea because it will also let the other Mom's at group see you deeply care about their kids in the situation too. I know if I was a member of your group (with my little ones there) I would respect this so much and do anything I could to help because you would show your care and determination to make the group safe and fun for EVERYONE.


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## margaret mayhem (Mar 31, 2008)

Thanks for the input. I have left when he's done things like throw a truck at another kid, though it doesn't seem to have much impact on him. Maybe I'm not doing it consistently enough. Though my bigger concern is him not deciding to throw the truck in the first place. That's where the shadowing suggestion is helpful, though it does sort of defeat the purpose of playgroup for both of us. I'd like him to be able to play with other kids without my hovering over him. And much of the time he really doesn't need me standing over him. I'm feeling like I just have to give up on playgroup, though it makes me sad not to have a regular time for him to interact with other kids.


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## Bellejar (Oct 2, 2005)

I did find consistency was key. And I did get support from the mom's in the group we had another mother who had a similar child who never did anything when her child acted out. Eventually they moved away, but I think if they hadn't she would have eventually gotten booted. I think showing the other moms you are committed to positive discipline is a good step.


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *margaret mayhem* 
Thanks for the input. I have left when he's done things like throw a truck at another kid, though it doesn't seem to have much impact on him. Maybe I'm not doing it consistently enough. Though my bigger concern is him not deciding to throw the truck in the first place. That's where the shadowing suggestion is helpful, though it does sort of defeat the purpose of playgroup for both of us. I'd like him to be able to play with other kids without my hovering over him. And much of the time he really doesn't need me standing over him. I'm feeling like I just have to give up on playgroup, though it makes me sad not to have a regular time for him to interact with other kids.

Consistency is the KEY with this. It won't necessarily work the first time, or the fourth, and the theory with gentle parenting is simply that you are showing him when you do X, then Z will happen. He can STILL CHOOSE TO DO X....but he WILL learn that Z happens. If he WANTS Z to happen then he will do X, if he does NOT want Z to happen, he will choose differently...once he makes the connection. But in order for the connection to be made, Z has to happen every time...ESPECIALLY for a kiddo this little.

Giving up on playgroup isn't going to help him (or you) learn to maneuver this situation more successfully. I would strongly suggest a couple things, and this is coming from a mama whose son (when he was this age) was an absolute terror on the playground when he wanted to be, so I do understand!

1. BEFORE playgroup, spend some time REALLY actively playing with him. Wrestle, chase, tickle, etc and get some of his extra energy out BEFORE he turns it look on unsuspecting tiny people!

2. Read books together about 'being friends'. When you play with him, model gentle playing by encouraging his trucks to 'play gentle' and his dolls to 'play nice' etc. Start using the phrase 'hands are not for hurting' and try the song "this is the way we treat our friends (to the tune of 'wash our hands').

3. Before you get to the playground (on the way) make it clear in simple language what you expect. "Mommy wants you to play gentle with your friends at the park. We will leave when you play rough and we will not come back today" When he says "i'll play nice', say "I know you will!"

4. At the playground, START by playing WITH him and invite other tots to come join. This way you can model appropriate positive play with the other tots, and you can see more closely what is occurring prior to the aggression. As he gets settled in, start backing off a bit. After about 15-20 minutes, let him play independently. THE INSTANT he is aggressive, AT ALL (throwing sand, hitting/kicking peers, throwing toys etc) you scoop him up and say honey, it's important to play gentle with our friends. You _____ (hit/kicked/whatever) and we are leaving now. Then off you go.

You may have to 'rinse and repeat' this a few times in a row for it to register, but I am SURE you will see improvement.

HTH
Bellevuemama


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## clintonhillmama (Dec 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *margaret mayhem* 
Many of the other parents only have a child or children younger than my son, so I wonder if it's partly that their kid hasn't gotten to this stage and so it's easy to look at my son and think "my kid would never do something like that."

i found this very true years ago when my ds had his very first tantrum during our playgroup - he was on the older side, and so all the other parents were looking at me, horrified. as if their little babies won't eventually do the same...









i don't think you should give up the playgroup - your child will benefit from the interaction, and learn what's accepted when it comes to playing with other kids. but you may have to stay closer to him most of the time (which i know cuts into your adult time) to guide him.

every kid has their "thing" - mine's a dramatic screamer when things don't go his way. his very good friend is more physical, like your ds, and veers towards hitting and throwing things. it may be a long time until you can change this impulse in your child. his mom stays close, removes him from the situation to explain "no hitting" etc., and has a 3 strikes policy - if he hits 3 times, they have to leave. i think it's hard for kids under 4 to fully comprehend that level of consequence, but i think they do get it to some extent, and my friend's son really has improved over time.

i also found that other parents respond to her and respect her more than the parents of kids that do nothing when their child misbehaves. she's very open about it, so it's all on the table and people know that she's on top of it.

and i always say that i'd rather have her kid hitting my ds than some stranger







. my son and hers still love each other no matter how much mine screams at him or hers tackles back.


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## AwakenedMama (Apr 16, 2007)

I second the suggestions to just supervise more closely or avoid the situation. Many kids go through this stage. Your job is to keep him and those around him safe, and to continue to show him unconditional love.

As for concrete suggestions, Playful Parenting was really good for me.

You'll miss the playgroups for a little while, but he will not do this forever, and you'll be able to play again. It sounds like it's not a lot of fun right now anyways.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

i absolutely agree with ruthla. you need to be shadowing your son. be close enough that you can intervene immediately. my son went through this phase & i had to shadow him constantly. i also apologized on his behalf when necessary. lastly, i found that my son (as a toddler) did much better in one-on-one playdates. i still was close at hand of course, but it seemed his energy wasn't quite as high in smaller groups. also - make sure you redirect him A LOT. i'm sorry your going through this. you're not a bad mama & your ds isn't being naughty. honest, it truly is just a phase. hugs.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

oh ...and on a different note. my son loved to tackle too. he seriously thinks he is a super hero ninja or something. he has finally calmed down in this regard, but at the age of 3, if he REALLY liked you - he would tackle you! oy vey! that was a hard stage, lol.


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## TexasTomboy (May 2, 2006)

Everyone has such great advice.

The only thing I'd add is a simple, "heat of the moment" trick. Positive language. When you say: "Don't throw the truck." all that is heard is "throw the truck." So just say a positive statement:" put the truck down!" Or even something random like: "Put your hands on your tummy." And try a positive tone-of-voice as well to diffuse the situation.


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

Everyone has had excellent advice! I just wanted to add that I think a lot of this is personality. My second son is like this-- a little "bully"! He's 26 months. Actually he's getting much better now-- with guidance they do grow out of it. But when he was a baby, from the time he was first able, he would take delight in pushing bigger kids over







-- we don't happen to know many younger babies (thank goodness) so he was always the youngest one. That helped a lot-- for me-- because the other parents saw his actions as cute instead of a big problem. Of course I always addressed it, I didn't let it go. My older son was never like that at all, very gentle and cautious. They just have naturally different personalities. Hope that makes you feel better.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LionTigerBear* 
Everyone has had excellent advice! I just wanted to add that I think a lot of this is personality. My second son is like this-- a little "bully"! .....My older son was never like that at all, very gentle and cautious. They just have naturally different personalities. Hope that makes you feel better.










oh definitely i agree! my daughter is such a well behaved child....she's actually a people pleaser...i need to work with her to NOT do that! my son - totally opposite. he's so fabulous....but boy, he's not like my dd!!! lol.


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## margaret mayhem (Mar 31, 2008)

Thank you all for such great advice. I really appreciate the specifics (thanks especially, Belvuemama) and the support. I'll try some of these things. I do think that the comments within the playgroup have been about my son's behavior, not about my lack of reaction to it--because I always did something. The things I've been doing just haven't been very effective. I think I'll also take the advice to try setting up individual play dates. Unfortunately, one of the parents I've tried to do that with is the one who just told me she doesn't like the way my son plays and that he's been the topic of discussion at playgroup. Sigh. I'll try others, though, especially those with kids a bit older. Maybe we should come play with your ds, clintonhillmama.


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## weliveintheforest (Sep 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TexasTomboy* 
The only thing I'd add is a simple, "heat of the moment" trick. Positive language. When you say: "Don't throw the truck." all that is heard is "throw the truck." So just say a positive statement:" put the truck down!" Or even something random like: "Put your hands on your tummy." And try a positive tone-of-voice as well to diffuse the situation.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellevuemama* 
3. Before you get to the playground (on the way) make it clear in simple language what you expect. "Mommy wants you to play gentle with your friends at the park. We will leave when you play rough and we will not come back today" When he says "i'll play nice', say "I know you will!"

4. At the playground, START by playing WITH him and invite other tots to come join. This way you can model appropriate positive play with the other tots, and you can see more closely what is occurring prior to the aggression. As he gets settled in, start backing off a bit. After about 15-20 minutes, let him play independently. THE INSTANT he is aggressive, AT ALL (throwing sand, hitting/kicking peers, throwing toys etc) you scoop him up and say honey, it's important to play gentle with our friends. You _____ (hit/kicked/whatever) and we are leaving now. Then off you go.

I agree with these suggestions too. I've learned with my daughter, that if I get her to say "I will __" or "I will not __" it means she is listening, rather than just saying "yeah, ok, whatever" and not actually paying attention. She is older than your ds but we started this last summer.

I find that she needs constant collecting as well, once she gets to the point in her play that she is ignoring me and refusing eye contact it's really hard to get her back.


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## Anandamama (Aug 29, 2007)

I love the "how to talk so your kids will listen..." book and hope you'll finish it. I don't know if this is an option for you, but if you can send him to a good daycare situation even part-time he might learn pretty quickly better ways of interacting with other children. Just observe first and make sure it's a peaceful atmosphere where violence is not allowed and postive behavior is actively taught.


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## clintonhillmama (Dec 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *margaret mayhem* 
Maybe we should come play with your ds, clintonhillmama.









we can start our OWN playgroup of kids who've been kicked out of the others!!


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

It is HARD to have the oldest kid in the playgroup, and have him be a boy who is energetic and physical. And have other moms keeping their distance because of your child's behavior.

I went through this with our oldest. And I almost dropped out of the playgroup. Instead, I decided to stick it out. I figured the other mommies would probably become a bit more understanding when their little angels reached their own ages of aggression (which in time turned out to be true). In the meantime I put a lot of effort into closely shadowing my son in the playgroup and dealing with aggressive behavior right as it happened. I did time-outs immediately on the spot for behavior that was aggressive but not physical (yes, I believe in time-outs....they have worked for my kids and I am happy with them), and for anything physical, I would just scoop him up and leave immediately.

I remember one time, we went to a playgroup that was a surprise baby shower for one of the moms. DS had understood that it was a "party" and was very excited, and we had talked about him being gentle on the way there. But, when we got there, we had just walked in taken off our shoes, and I had just set down the gift, when he yelled at a little girl for sitting in the chair he had wanted and shoved her, slamming her head into a wall. I took a moment to comfort the girl until her mother got to her, apologized to her and her daughter, scooped up my baby in one arm and my kicking 3-yo under the other arm, and walked out, with him kicking and screaming all the way to the van. He cried and screamed the whole way home and I wondered if I was being too harsh. But hey, he slammed another kid's head into the wall, and if I had been the other mommies I wouldn't have wanted him there either. And I didn't mince words...I let him know we left because he hurt someone, and that he could not play with friends if he was going to hurt people. It was a hard day...he kept saying he was sorry and asking to go back to the party and I kept telling him we could not go back because he was mean and hurt someone.

After that ? He has NEVER been physically aggressive with another kid again. Ever. When we go to playgroup now, I still have some concerns about his level of activity and loudness, etc, but I do not have any worries at all that he will be involved in physical aggression. Because he knows like he knows like he knows, that pig won't fly.

So, my advice is to shadow him closely and deal with any aggression in a manner that is fast and effective and *really* gets your point across. It may not be all that warm-fuzzy-positive, but I think teaching kids not to hurt others is important enough to be more stern about.


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## Think of Winter (Jun 10, 2004)

I've been in this situation with my ds several times. He's gone through about 3-4 periods of aggressive behavior. "Shadowing" him did not really work for us. He's too quick, and it wasn't fun for either of us for me to be in between him and any friends. For the periods it was happening, we stayed home more. I wish I'd figured that out earlier, because we had a very close call with a good friend who won't play with us anymore.









I really think it was a combination of developmental stage, stress, and not enough outdoor time. I do try to figure out what may be causing the stress and aggression, but I don't think it was ever a question of teaching him right and wrong. Certainly at 2 1/2 a child does not have the impulse control to stop and think about what they're doing in the heat of the moment. I'm lucky if I do.

I think getting up and leaving playgroup when it's happening is a good idea, as long as it's not punitive. You can say, "Honey, we need to let the other kids play safely, so we're going home." rather than "You hurt that child, now we have to go."


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## Sophienaz (Nov 5, 2008)

[ Unfortunately, one of the parents I've tried to do that with is the one who just told me she doesn't like the way my son plays and that he's been the topic of discussion at playgroup. Sigh. ]

Oh god how annoying. I hate it when other parents say stuff like this. I had the same problem with my boy, same age as yours. What i found infuriating was how they spoke with me as if I wasn't aware of the fact that he was difficult at times. As if I thought he was a perfectly behaved angel. This really really really irritated me and I wanted to slap all of the other mothers with their "perfect" little children.

They way I dealt with it was becoming his shadow. Literally. I hated playgroups at the time because I was a slave, I would follow him around everywhere, grabbing his hand when he wanted to hit another kid or throw a toy, etc. I had no chance to gossip or chat to other moms, I was like a donkey. Playgroups became more physically taxing than my daily workouts at the gym and sapped me of all my positive energy. I can't tell you how much I dreaded each one. However, being his slave for several months worked, now he is fine.

IT helped him because he had my full attention, and it made all the other boring, extremely ugly, well dressed, perfectly groomed, uneducated mothers realise that I was making an effort. Killed two birds with one stone.

I gotta tell you, some playgroup moms are just frightful. Ignore what they say and concentrate on your little one and help him realise what is right and what is wrong. Its tough.

But nothing could be more stressful than one poor dear mother I observed. She came to playgroup with her boy, same age as mine again, but this boy was hilarious.....sooooo naughty and so clever. the minute she turned her head to talk to someone, wack, down went another child. THis poor woman was a wreck, she has this horrendous nervous facial twitch and the longer she stayed at playgroup, the worse the twitch got. I felt so bad for her, I came up and chatted to her and she started crying and she was ready to throw herself off a high building. I soothed her, comforted her and the twitch slowly died down.

But man, one side of me was laughing, but the other side was crying. Its really tough when you are always on edge, scared of what your kid is going to do. You just gotta supervise him until he feels assured enough of your love and attention.

And you know, if you can be bothered, set up your own playgroup, I know its hard to figure out, but that way youc an be sure of who is there and you know you wont' get stupid comments about your kid.

XXX


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sophienaz* 

Oh god how annoying. I hate it when other parents say stuff like this. I had the same problem with my boy, same age as yours. What i found infuriating was how they spoke with me as if I wasn't aware of the fact that he was difficult at times. As if I thought he was a perfectly behaved angel. This really really really irritated me and I wanted to slap all of the other mothers with their "perfect" little children.

IT helped him because he had my full attention, and it made all the other boring, extremely ugly, well dressed, perfectly groomed, uneducated mothers realise that I was making an effort. Killed two birds with one stone.

XXX

Wow, such disdain. You should have just found another playgroup.

OP - I'm on the other end of this, so I know how stressful it can be to watch your child get constantly tackled or hurt for no reason by the same child. One time ds actually required ice on his head because he was pushed by the child when our backs were turned.
As much fun as it won't be for you, the shadowing advice is excellent. Good luck to you!


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## SquishyKitty (Jun 10, 2005)

When DS was that young, either DH or I shadowed him everywhere, or else we would remove him from a situation if it got too out of hand.

Always repeating things like "Trucks are for rolling, not throwing", over and over in these situations too. It gets tiresome, but kids learn through repetition. They are easily distracted, and soon forget.


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## ktmama (Jan 21, 2004)

_OP - I'm on the other end of this, so I know how stressful it can be to watch your child get constantly tackled or hurt for no reason by the same child. One time ds actually required ice on his head because he was pushed by the child when our backs were turned.
As much fun as it won't be for you, the shadowing advice is excellent. Good luck to you!_

Something similar happened to my dd2 as well and we ended up leaving our neighborhood group because of it. I just wanted to suggest that the moms in your group aren't being judgmental of your dc, they are probably just genuinely concerned for their kids' safety and well-being. Try not to take it personally. Not all kids are aggressive, or go through that phase, so don't assume that these mothers will experience what you are experiencing.

I do think it's a good idea to demonstrate to everyone (your dc, the other moms and the other kids) that you are ON it, though, and you are committed to the safety and fun of the group. Also, just wondering if your son has shown irritation in the group before? Some kids just can't (no matter how social parents want to be) tolerate a group situation because of sensory issues or personal space invasion that happens in a group. I know both of my kids have been so much happier in one-on-one play situations.

Best of luck and let us know what works for you!


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## aricha (Oct 21, 2007)

Honestly, toddlers just aren't made to play in a group... it's just not where they are developmentally. And while 1-yr-olds can often play in a group because they tend to be less aware of other children, 2-yr-olds have suddenly discovered that there are other children and, worse, that sometimes interesting things can happen when you interact with those children.

Shadowing would be great for your son because you will be there to help guide him toward appropriate ways to interact with other children, or to redirect his interest toward an interesting toy instead. And as he gets older he will have had lots of modelling and practice in taming his impulses, finding gentle ways to get what he wants, monitoring his own personal space, etc. He'll be well versed in social skills by the time he is developmentally ready to use them. Unfortunately, it defeats the purpose of playgroup for you because it will take all of your attention and loads of energy.

And if partway through (or even right from the start) he is getting too wound up and all you are doing is running interference constantly, he might be telling you that the group thing just isn't working for him right now and it's time to head home and try again another day.

Maybe rather than setting up a playdate for your son, you can set up a babysitter and a coffee date with another mom that you like


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## lucysmom (Oct 17, 2004)

Sounds like maybe your child would benefit from more time with older kids. Being the biggest can be hard to handle. Good luck.


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