# Question about children who STTN because of CIO.



## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Let me preface this by saying I am NOT thinking of CIO, I'm just honestly curious...

We all know one of the detrimental side effects of CIO is that children learn not to cry out because they've come to realize they will not be answered, right? Well, what happens when they sleep through the night? Do they subconsciously know not to wake up because it's pointless? Or were they genuinely about to sleep through the night anyway?

I guess this could be about night weaning too. Would the child not wake up because they subconsciously knew they wouldn't be able to nurse?

Or is it likely that it would have happened naturally? Or is it more likely that the women who claim their children sleep for 10-12 hours STRAIGHT because of CIO are just fibbing about their children never waking up?

Sorry if this seems like a weird question.


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Interesting question, I've wondered about it myself . . .

I have a friend whose little guy weaned himself at 13 months when she was pregnant. He still woke up in the middle of the night.

I think there's something to the idea that CIO babies learn to "self soothe" although I wouldn't put such flowery words on it . . . if my thoughts become more than fragments I'll post again.


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Do they subconsciously know not to wake up because it's pointless?

That's what I think.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

I don't think they are sleeping through the night without stirring or waking at all - nobody does. My DD was a natural, early sleep "through the night"-er - from 5 weeks on (shockingly early compared to my DS and most "normal" babies). But, it doesn't mean she never woke up. It means she woke up, wiggled a bit, popped her thumb in her mouth, and sucked herself back to sleep. Her personality was such that she didn't need much outside comfort re:sleep issues. So, my theory about CIO babies is that they learn that it's pointless to ask for help, so they eventually figure out how to soothe themselves back to sleep way before they were ready to.


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## ACsMom (Apr 21, 2006)

Well, from what my sister says, CIO doesn't necessarily lead to better sleep. She and I are polar opposites when it comes to parenting. She's been hard-core CIO with all 3 of her kids.







She does it so that she herself can sleep through the night, not necessarily so the babies will. Her second child never cooperated with this arrangement, and to this day, at the age of 3, she still gets up multiple times during the night. The other two are better sleepers, just because that's the way they are.

From what I hear from friends, some of whom use CIO and some who don't, it's the same story: it doesn't always "work." That said, learned helplessness is a very real phenomenon and I imagine that some babies left to cio will learn to stay asleep as a defense mechanism. In fact, falling asleep is a pretty common defense against distress in kids. When I was a therapist I saw kids do that in my office when the parent was talking about something stressful.

Interesting question!


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
I don't think they are sleeping through the night without stirring or waking at all - nobody does... <snip> So, my theory about CIO babies is that they learn that it's pointless to ask for help, so they eventually figure out how to soothe themselves back to sleep way before they were ready to.

But what *if* they do sleep through? What if they are not stirring or waking enough to need to cry out. Can a child, or adult for matter, learn not to wake up because what ever they need or want will be unavailable? Are they capable of thinking in their sleep?

(OT, but for the record, before DD I slept through the night.







My head hit the pillow, and I didn't wake till morning. Had no recolection of falling asleep, and NEVER woke in the middle of the night. Most times I was in the same position I fell asleep in. Oh how I long for those day (err.. nights).







)


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## Cujobunny (Aug 16, 2006)

I don't think they necessarily SLEEP thru the night... does anyone actually sleep 8 hours or whatever without waking up AT ALL? I think they just figure out to go to sleep without calling out.

That being said, ds "sleeps thru the night" about every other night or so. I have no idea if he wakes up or what happens when he does. All I know is that I wake up in the morning and realize I didn't hear a peep out of him all night. We have NEVER done CIO and never would.

I nightweaned him just after Christmas (he was 22 mo) because I am pregnant and was sooooooo tired. Also because nursing him was not putting him back to sleep - he would be more awake and want to stay up and chat.

So he still does wake up a few times a week, usually once per night, always comes into bed with me.

I think there is a point where they are developmentally ready to sleep thru the night but definitely that is forced sometimes by sleep training methods. JMO.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cujobunny* 
does anyone actually sleep 8 hours or whatever without waking up AT ALL?

Yes, me. Well, I used too.

I guess I'm not making my question clear. I understand that they'll stir and what not. I guess by "not wake up" I mean they don't _completely_ wake up, thus don't need help going back to sleep, either by us, or by self soothing.

It sounds like everyone is saying that it is impossible for a baby not to wake in the night. I guess I just don't believe that to be true, though I have no real experience (I have a frequent night waker).


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

I don't think It is physically possible to sleep several hours without waking


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## Cujobunny (Aug 16, 2006)

Hmmm upon further thinking about this, I think they must stay asleep to a certain degree. This is only based on my experience with ds who has only begun to "sleep thru the night" and without any sort of training short of nightweaning.

In the morning if I wake up before him and go check on him, he is never in the same position that I left him the night before. I figure, he obviously stirs and whatnot but I really don't think he FULLY wakes up because if he did he would call out for me or come into my room, which he does usually 3 or 4 nights a week.

So I guess it is possible for people of any age to sleep long stretches (I'm pretty sure I slept for a stretch of about 5 hrs last night without waking) but there's no way we can know unless we sit there and watch them all night. Or videotape them


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## J's Mombee (Aug 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 

(OT, but for the record, before DD I slept through the night.







My head hit the pillow, and I didn't wake till morning. Had no recolection of falling asleep, and NEVER woke in the middle of the night. Most times I was in the same position I fell asleep in. Oh how I long for those day (err.. nights).







)











Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cujobunny* 
I don't think they necessarily SLEEP thru the night... does anyone actually sleep 8 hours or whatever without waking up AT ALL? I think they just figure out to go to sleep without calling out.
JMO.

Yup... I used to pre-ds on ocassion


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cujobunny* 
but there's no way we can know unless we sit there and watch them all night. Or videotape them









That's just it. I was talking to another mom who said she was so nervous when doing CIO that she ended up sitting up for almost a whole night watching him on the monitor. She said he never woke up. Obviously he stirred and what not, but once he cried himself to sleep (







) he never woke up, thus did not need soothing back to sleep (from either himself, or his mother).

And that got me thinking. Did he not wake up because he knew he would not be answered? Was that a thought process that happened while he was asleep?

Or was it just that he was naturally about to sleep through the night anyway?


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Yes, me. Well, I used too.

You don't wake up because you sleep much more deeply than a baby--you have matured biologically. Some researchers now believe a baby's waking is a protection mechanism against SIDS--if they were to sleep as deeply as you, they would be less likely to rouse themselves if unable to breathe.

I don't believe CIO babies sleep all the way through--it just doesn't make sense physiologically.

And I think it's a myth that weaning stops all waking--my 2 year old DD has weaned completely, and she still wakes up during the night (including once for a large snack of fruit and water).


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
You don't wake up because you sleep much more deeply than a baby--you have matured biologically. Some researchers now believe a baby's waking is a protection mechanism against SIDS--if they were to sleep as deeply as you, they would be less likely to rouse themselves if unable to breathe.

Yes, I understand that. My response was to the question; "does *anyone* actually sleep 8 hours or whatever without waking up AT ALL". The answer was yes, me!

I understand that babies don't sleep as deeply as adults, and that it is biologically normal. HOWEVER, when a child sleeps, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12 (whatever) hours without waking because they were sleep trained and left to CIO, are they not waking because they are making a subconscious decision not to because they know their needs will not be met? Or are they doing it because they were about to naturally anyway?


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Yes, I understand that. My response was to the question; "does *anyone* actually sleep 8 hours or whatever without waking up AT ALL". The answer was yes, me!

I understand that babies don't sleep as deeply as adults, and that it is biologically normal. HOWEVER, when a child sleeps, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12 (whatever) hours without waking because they were sleep trained and left to CIO, are they not waking because they are making a subconscious decision not to because they know their needs will not be met? Or are they doing it because they were about to naturally anyway?

(Continuing the OT tangent) No you don't







You just don't remember the "pauses" in your sleep cycle.

Babies have *shorter* sleep cycles, technically speaking. I don't remember if they go fully into delta or not . . .


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Also OT, but I read an article in reader's digest a few years ago about how pre-electricity, people in England wrote about "first sleep" and "second sleep" and would routinely go over to the neighbours' for tea between the two . . .


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## Daisie125 (Oct 26, 2005)

My DD was CIOed (I had her when I was 20, and honestly thought that was the only way.. I would NEVER do it again)

She still woke at night, but I never CIOed her in the middle of the night, only to get her to sleep at the begining of the evening. (It did "work" she went right to sleep after a couple of nights... but the long-term effects of this scare me) if she woke in the night, I always assumed she needed something, it honestly never even occured to me to let her CIO at like 2am. I'd go in, get her a drink or a snack, and she'd lay down and go back to sleep no problem.

I still worry about lasting effects from it, though.


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## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
I don't think they are sleeping through the night without stirring or waking at all - nobody does. My DD was a natural, early sleep "through the night"-er - from 5 weeks on (shockingly early compared to my DS and most "normal" babies). But, it doesn't mean she never woke up. It means she woke up, wiggled a bit, popped her thumb in her mouth, and sucked herself back to sleep. Her personality was such that she didn't need much outside comfort re:sleep issues. So, my theory about CIO babies is that they learn that it's pointless to ask for help, so they eventually figure out how to soothe themselves back to sleep way before they were ready to.









: The whole thing. I, too, had an uncannily early STTNer. Watching him, he just didn't want to be messed with in the night, unless he was hungry. And now seeing the opposite with my second, that he needs contact all night to be able to sleep soundly, that babies who CIO are forced to learn to "self-soothe" before they're ready, so when their sleep cycle brings them to a state of slight consciousness, they have learned that crying is useless, so they simply figure out how to get back to sleep on their own.







:


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HerthElde* 
Also OT, but I read an article in reader's digest a few years ago about how pre-electricity, people in England wrote about "first sleep" and "second sleep" and would routinely go over to the neighbours' for tea between the two . . .

Still OT, but someone posted recently about a book that talks about this. Reading about the history of sleep makes our babies seem much more normal. http://www.newyorker.com/critics/boo...0530crbo_books


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HerthElde* 
(Continuing the OT tangent) No you don't









Are you saying it is impossible to transition between sleep cycles without waking? Because if you are, I disagree. I've had many people tell me I do NOT wake up. Sometimes that I don't even move.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

I thought of another way to word my question so it might make more sense (because I think everyone is missing the point).

Ok, say a child has problems falling asleep, and then wakes an hour after they do. Mom is fed up and decides to CIO. She does, and miraculously the baby falls asleep great for a 4 or 5 hour stretch.

Now, are they not waking up on the 1 hour mark because they are subconsciously making the decision not to because they know their cry won't be answered?

If not, how does CIO work? I understand that once they fully wake up and are crying and seeking attention that they will stop this behavior because they won't be answered and will then find a way to "self sooth" themselves back to sleep. They feel defeated.

But in the case of _prolonging_ their sleep, how does it work? Is it just that they were on the cusp of sleeping longer to begin with, or do we have the subconscious ability to make decisions in our sleep?

I hope that makes more sense.


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## myhoneyswife (Apr 30, 2005)

I think if ignored long enough, they usually develop a pattern. Their metabolism resets (harshly) to only eat during the day, they get in the habit of sleeping all night. I know that if I let myself go back to bed one morning and sleep til 10, I'll want to keep doing that every day, instead of stay up at 5:30. Same as if I take an afternoon nap, if I do that for a couple days, my body expects the afternoon nap and I'll get tired then. When my babe was born, I pretty much just adjusted to her sleep schedule and slept in 45 minute increments all day and night long.

I also think that some people (like me) can adjust sleeping patterns easily. I always need a set amount of sleep (8 to 9 hours) but I can get in the habit of waking up at 5 am easily, staying up late easily, adding in or taking away naps easily. It just takes me a couple days to adjust, say, from getting up at 7 to getting up at 5, where other people may take weeks to adjust to that schedule or maybe even never adjust.

I wake up every sleep cycle, but go back to sleep quickly.


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

IME, the kids who I've seen who were CIO kids don't actually sleep through the night, they just stop calling or crying when they wake. For one child, this meant that they might have woken up for the day at 7am, but they stayed in their crib until mama woke up at 8am or whatever. She had toys in her crib to keep her occupied until her parents came to get her.


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## myhoneyswife (Apr 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 

But in the case of _prolonging_ their sleep, how does it work? Is it just that they were on the cusp of sleeping longer to begin with, or do we have the subconscious ability to make decisions in our sleep?


I think we do have the ability to make decisions in our sleep, if not in REM sleep, then maybe in the lighter sleep. I'll nurse my baby at night and not have a clue that I did it (and I have to pull her to me to latch because she doesn't do that on her own yet).


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

My daughter night weaned about a year ago on her. No cio of course. Anyways, she still wakes up several times a night whether for water, to go to the bathroom, snuggles, etc.

Nightweaned and CIO don't equal sleeping through the night.


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## Kate Carmichael (Mar 14, 2006)

I'd defer to a brain development specialist on that question.

I can tell you anecdotally that we never did CIO, but we did try to minimize involvement when my daughter woke up at night, and only gave her what she needed in order to calm down and go back to sleep. We'd start with soft talking ("Hiiii...you woke up...it's sleeping time and you're in your bed...time to sleep...good night..."), and if that didn't work, we'd rub her hair, tummy, etc. If she was still crying at that point, we'd pick her up for a snuggle, rock her, whatever, until she calmed down. We also always always always put her down awake, after she was 6 weeks old. She slept 8 hours at about 7 weeks, and 12 hours at 4 months, without any intervention from us. Only when she's sick or teething does she wake up at night to the point of crying for us. I think it helped that we gave her a tiny silky blanket early on, which she'd pull against her cheek when she was tired, and for comfort. I also think it helped that we removed her pacifier at about 8 weeks, at a point when she didn't miss it, and didn't need it anymore, so she never had those ack!-my-pacifier-fell-out wake-ups. She never sucked her thumb, either.

I know that she did and does wake up at night, without becoming fully conscious, because I hear her smack the music button on her FP aquarium thing. I don't think there's any conscious decision-making going on, though. I think she wakes up, realizes it's dark and she's still tired, snuggles back in and goes back to sleep, similar to what we as adults would do. When she wakes up in the morning, she climbs out of bed and comes looking for us, and cries if she doesn't see us right away, so that's what I'd expect if she were fully conscious when she wakes up at night.


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Are you saying it is impossible to transition between sleep cycles without waking? Because if you are, I disagree. I've had many people tell me I do NOT wake up. Sometimes that I don't even move.

No, I'm not saying that - based on what I've read about sleep cycles, "waking" is part of the sleep cycle . . . but I think that doesn't actually mean becoming fully awake, just coming into the "alpha" state, which you then don't usually remember upon waking - and afaik, unless you were hooked up to a machine monitoring your brain waves, noone would necessarily "know" that you had reached that state.

What I learned last weekend at a seminar is that the "alpha" state is actually the natural "awake" state until about age 5, while the "beta" state is what we, as adults, consider fully awake.

Hmmm, bet that was clear as mud. I apologize, I know I'm not typing in enough info to see the path from A to B, and I don't really have time to right now, but I didn't want to just not answer you . . . if I'm too confusing, just ignore me







:







:


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## jennybean0722 (Jun 19, 2006)

IMO, I don't think there is any decision making going on. Some kids are stellar sleepers, some aren't and need to learn how to do it (be it in a kind or unkind fashion). Sorry to be so blunt: I don't mean to sound cruel and 'sleep trainer-ish'. I feel I've read every darn book on the subject. They are supposed to wake up every sleep cycle to prevent SIDS, etc./need mom. When the parent or child is ready, or at weaning, they sleep better (again, whether it is 'quick' or 'painful' is up to whether it is the right time and dependent on the temperment of the child too).

Hell, even Dr. Jay Gordon says in his 'program' that kids over a year need to "learn" how to go to sleep on their own before completely nightweaning. And no offense, but Ferber says this too (gasp! yes, I read Ferber). Even Ferber says that co-sleeping and night-nursing are fine as long as its working well and everyone is in sync and getting sleep.

Just my two cents.


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## Kate Carmichael (Mar 14, 2006)

I wish sleep-training and CIO were not seen as synonomous around here. We sleep trained without ever CIO. And even people I've known who DO use CIO have not done it in the fashion imagined around here.


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## jennybean0722 (Jun 19, 2006)

Yeah, I wish it weren't synonomous either. But I just had to disclose that before anyone said I was advocating CIO. I'm not. I just find it funny that for some reason, people think 'more than one year old, okay to cry. less than one year old, not okay to cry.' Okay, okay, I know the experts say 'when they are ready', but in the same token, is it any wonder why the mainstream just 'get it over with' and CIO or sleep train (babywise...) at an earlier age? Can anyone blame them for not wanting just a 'tad' bit of sleep?


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HerthElde* 
"waking" is part of the sleep cycle . . . but I think that doesn't actually mean becoming fully awake, just coming into the "alpha" state, which you then don't usually remember upon waking

Ok, I think we're splitting hairs here. That's still not what I, or most people for that matter, would consider as being 'awake'. I may transition into light cycles where I roll over, adjust the blankets, and pull on my pillow, but if my eyes are closed and I don't remember it, then I didn't wake up.









Many women here claim to roll over and lift their shirts to nurse their babies in their sleep while "never waking up", but by your definition they have. I would consider my night nursings to be done while I was asleep, and many times I have not woken up. Same sort of thing.


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Ok, I think we're splitting hairs here. That's still not what I, or most people for that matter, would consider as being 'awake'. I may transition into light cycles where I roll over, adjust the blankets, and pull on my pillow, but if my eyes are closed and I don't remember it, then I didn't wake up.









Many women here claim to roll over and lift their shirts to nurse their babies in their sleep while "never waking up", but by your definition they have. I would consider my night nursings to be done while I was asleep, and many times I have not woken up. Same sort of thing.

Yep. Splitting hairs, I agree







Except, I do think that those "not really waking up" instances are precisely when the aforementioned CIO babies that _might_ have woken up otherwise give up and go back to sleep. And when the nightwaking babies wake up.
Hope that makes sense.
To answer your actual question - I think that it's very likely the baby gave up. I'm trying to think of how to describe the exhaustion that comes over me when I cry (which is very rarely) . . . my head hurts, my nose throbs, I feel awful, I feel soooooooooo so tired. If I sleep, I think it's comparable to a drunk sleep - you know, where you actually don't go through all the sleep cycles you should and don't feel as refreshed when you wake?

That makes me very curious about what it would look like to compare the brainwaves through the night of a CIO baby and a non-CIO baby . . .


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## richella (Nov 30, 2004)

How many people REALLY know if their baby sleeps through the night? If you cio, presumably the babe is in a different room, and mom and dad are sleeping, so who's to say the baby didn't wake and just didn't cry?

I don't know if I was cio or not, but I had insomnia as early as I can remember. Didn't really learn to put myself to sleep until my teens. I would just lie in bed thinking about stuff. My mom used to say that when she would check on me as a baby, even late at night, I would often be awake, just lying quietly in my crib.

If your friend watched the monitor all night, sure, but I would seriously doubt that everyone who says their baby sleeps through the night really knows that to be the case. Some may be doing it, some probably aren't, just like all babies vary greatly in their habits and needs.


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## Decca (Mar 14, 2006)

What _any_ sleep training, not just CIO (and I'd also like to argue that CIO is not some monolithic thing - there are several degrees and methods) does is change the sleep association so the baby no longer requires a specific thing - the breast, a binkie, etc - to fall asleep. Even the No Cry Sleep Solution advocates changing the association with the Pantley Pull Off. And both Dr Gordon and Dr Sears instruct fathers to participate in nighttime parenting so that children learn to accept comfort from them and not from breastfeeding in their nightweaning techniques.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HerthElde* 
I do think that those "not really waking up" instances are precisely when the aforementioned CIO babies that _might_ have woken up otherwise give up and go back to sleep. And when the nightwaking babies wake up.
Hope that makes sense.

That does make sense. So while they not may not wake up enough to sit up and cry, they are awake enough to make the conscious effort not to bother. Interesting..


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## Decca (Mar 14, 2006)

Quote:

So while they not may not wake up enough to sit up and cry, they are awake enough to make the conscious effort not to bother
I don't know if the answer is that simple, or that bleak. I think it might be true of babies who have been hard-core Ezzo trained. But if the parents have done Dr Ferber or the "Sleep Lady Shuffle" and replaced one sleep association (the breast, etc) with another (a lovey), the baby may half-wake up and do what Kate described upthread: "Huh? Oh, it's dark, here's my blankie, my white noise machine is playing....zzzzzzz."

I think this is hard to explain to someone who doesn't wake up in the night!







When I wake up like that, it's "What? I'm asleep. Here's Mr Pillow..zzzzz....." roll over, wake up next morning - I may or may not remember waking up like that.


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## Katie Bugs Mama (Feb 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Or is it likely that it would have happened naturally? Or is it more likely that the women who claim their children sleep for 10-12 hours STRAIGHT because of CIO are just fibbing about their children never waking up?

I think that the parents are either misinformed or deluding themselves. How would they know if the baby wakes up during the night? The poor thing has been trained not to cry because it won't summon help, so she probably just lays there until she drifts off again.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kate Carmichael* 
I wish sleep-training and CIO were not seen as synonomous around here. We sleep trained without ever CIO. And even people I've known who DO use CIO have not done it in the fashion imagined around here.

I can understand how that would be frustrating to you but what you don't seem to appreciate is that ANY method of 'training' a baby to sleep without his mother seems unnatural to the majority of posters in this forum. Of course there are babies who sleep better in cribs. That's great. No contest. But specifically training in the way you describe is just bizarre to some of us.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kate Carmichael* 
If she was still crying at that point, we'd pick her up for a snuggle.

My gut reaction is "why is she STILL crying? Why didn't you pick her up initially?

I just wanted to write this because I sense your frustration on this board.

Gently encouraging independence in an older baby (who can comprehend the concept of 'no more.. later.. in the morning') is a very different thing.


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## Kate Carmichael (Mar 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
I can understand how that would be frustrating to you but what you don't seem to appreciate is that ANY method of 'training' a baby to sleep without his mother seems unnatural to the majority of posters in this forum. Of course there are babies who sleep better in cribs. That's great. No contest. But specifically training in the way you describe is just bizarre to some of us.

My gut reaction is "why is she STILL crying? Why didn't you pick her up initially?

I just wanted to write this because I sense your frustration on this board.

Gently encouraging independence in an older baby (who can comprehend the concept of 'no more.. later.. in the morning') is a very different thing.

I'm pretty sure I've never said it's better for babies to sleep in cribs. Re: why is she STILL crying?, I think you're imagining the entire process to be much lengthier than it actually is. It goes very quickly: a second to assess what's going on (because maybe the baby's crying because she's in an uncomfortable position, lost her lovey, etc.), then a whispered comfort, nope that didn't work, pat pat rub rub, shshsh, nope, Come here, shshshshs, rock sway talk, calm, put her down. If a baby can be calmed by just quiet whispering or a pat, then they're not as distressed or awake as a baby who is wailing hysterically and needs to be picked up. The sleep training I'm talking about is about responding with what the baby actually needs, be that a whisper, a pat, picking up, nursing, whatever. Not every cry from a baby is a full out distress signal, and not every cry needs to be treated as such.


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Decca* 
What _any_ sleep training, not just CIO (and I'd also like to argue that CIO is not some monolithic thing - there are several degrees and methods) does is change the sleep association so the baby no longer requires a specific thing - the breast, a binkie, etc - to fall asleep. Even the No Cry Sleep Solution advocates changing the association with the Pantley Pull Off. And both Dr Gordon and Dr Sears instruct fathers to participate in nighttime parenting so that children learn to accept comfort from them and not from breastfeeding in their nightweaning techniques.

All OT:
Technically speaking, any way a baby falls asleep is "training", in that it creates neural pathways specifically related to sleep/falling asleep/what-have-you . . . but I don't think that's really the point of this discussion.
I'm curious about your CIO statement - if it wasn't against the UA I'd love to have an objective non-emotional discussion about definition and why you think there are degrees, because I don't understand where you're coming from (and since I need to know everything, I'd like to). It would be interesting to see the reasons of various people about where they draw the "line in the sand" . . . unfortunately, I think the conversation would be too defense-evoking to be productive or satisfy my curiosity . . .


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kate Carmichael* 
I'm pretty sure I've never said it's better for babies to sleep in cribs. Re: why is she STILL crying?, I think you're imagining the entire process to be much lengthier than it actually is. It goes very quickly: a second to assess what's going on (because maybe the baby's crying because she's in an uncomfortable position, lost her lovey, etc.), then a whispered comfort, nope that didn't work, pat pat rub rub, shshsh, nope, Come here, shshshshs, rock sway talk, calm, put her down. If a baby can be calmed by just quiet whispering or a pat, then they're not as distressed or awake as a baby who is wailing hysterically and needs to be picked up. The sleep training I'm talking about is about responding with what the baby actually needs, be that a whisper, a pat, picking up, nursing, whatever. Not every cry from a baby is a full out distress signal, and not every cry needs to be treated as such.

Thanks for clarifying - that's what I assumed you meant.

I think the key there is it's about that specific baby . . . I only have 2 kids, but their personalities are so completely different that it's been really interesting to see the difference between what dd2 needs vs what dd1 needed. The "training" method (that's really a loaded word . . . shall I use technique?) . . . The technique you used with your dd would absolutely not have worked with my 0 to 60 in 2 seconds older daughter. She would have been hysterical if I had not immediately picked her up. However, dd2 has always been more laid back and comfortable being alone, even to the point of crying to be put down before she was 2 months old (really threw me for a loop!) She wouldn't startle awake the same way as dd1 . . . she would need a bit of reassurance, but wouldn't actually wake, and would settle quickly without being picked up. In fact, if I had picked her up, I would have woken her! So, yeah, every child is different.

With more relevance to this particular discussion, though, babies do NOT change their personalities in one (or a few) nights.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kate Carmichael* 
I'm pretty sure I've never said it's better for babies to sleep in cribs.

I guess I just assumed that was the context of the sleep training. I can't imagine how the minimal intervention thing would work when he's right next to me? On the rare occasion that I've offered a pacifier or just tried to hold him he just gets more upset.

OP - sorry for the post Hijack! I don't know the answer to your question.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HerthElde* 
my 0 to 60 in 2 seconds older daughter.

Is she related to my son?







I think that's why it's so hard for me to imagine.


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
Is she related to my son?







I think that's why it's so hard for me to imagine.

Yeah, it's amazing what having two children within the same "parenting style" (I hate that expression - philosophy, maybe?) can do to your perspectives . . .


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## Thalia the Muse (Jun 22, 2006)

I think another advantage of what Kate's describing is that, if you immediately jump to Defcon 1 and pick the baby up and try to feed it, if it WASN'T fully awake and upset or hungry to begin with, you've just woken it all the way up. Whereas gentle shushing or patting can help it go back down on its own. I'm not a big fan of disturbing sleeping babies.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

I think I just have a 0-60 baby. There is no 'fussing' like i hear other people describe. There's a little cry and then within 10 seconds he's VERY upset.


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## Kate Carmichael (Mar 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thalia the Muse* 
I think another advantage of what Kate's describing is that, if you immediately jump to Defcon 1 and pick the baby up and try to feed it, if it WASN'T fully awake and upset or hungry to begin with, you've just woken it all the way up. Whereas gentle shushing or patting can help it go back down on its own. I'm not a big fan of disturbing sleeping babies.











I've had a bunch of different sorts of babies (2 of my own, 10 foster), and there's definitely not a One Size Fits All technique or, for that matter, baby. My daughter was one who would go "eh eh eh eh ehhhh!" in her sleep, without ever gaining full consciousness. When she was co-sleeping, my first tendency was to jump out of bed to console her. I quickly learned, though, that if I just put a hand on her belly, she'd quiet right down and go back into a deep sleep.

I've had other babies who are 0-60, and go from a deep sleep right to high alert mode. They usually require more on the intervention spectrum, but can eventually be assisted to recognize the end of the sleep cycle not as a time to freak out, but as a time to grab your blankie, snuggle in, and go back to sleepytime. The trick is getting them to realize that they're still tired. I've seen parents really mess that up by pulling out every trick in the go-back-to-sleep book (rock, then swing, then a drive around the block, then music, etc. etc. etc.), which can actually wake the baby up even more, rather than help him re-settle. We make things as boring and snuggly as possible around here in order to avoid the full wake-up of a half-asleep kid.

Back to the OP, if I had to guess, I'd bet that a fully unresponsive CIO sort of sleep training initially puts the baby through a sleep-as-a-defense-mechanism cycle, because they get so highly distressed that they just exhaust themselves and fall asleep. After a few nights of doing that (not something I'd ever consider...yikes), sleeping straight through becomes a habit, and it's probably not as distressing (like waking up and feeling "why bother crying?") anymore, especially if the parent is highly responsive during waking hours. Just a guess, though.

A truly attachment-disordered child doesn't get her needs met by crying EVER (I've seen this, as a foster parent), so you never even know if the kid is sick, hungry, tired, whatever. They're just blank, or they scream constantly. Saddest thing ever. I had one 7-week old whose birthmother left the hospital after 12 hours because CPS was coming to get the baby. The bm was homeless, and the baby had to detox from heroin on the street. The police found her when the baby was 7 weeks, and she came to my house. You could tell she was unaccustomed to comfort of any kind. Poor kiddo screamed all the time, and wasn't comforted by anything, for any reason. Just solid screaming. Soooo sad.


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## Decca (Mar 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HerthElde* 
All OT:
Technically speaking, any way a baby falls asleep is "training", in that it creates neural pathways specifically related to sleep/falling asleep/what-have-you . . . but I don't think that's really the point of this discussion.
I'm curious about your CIO statement - if it wasn't against the UA I'd love to have an objective non-emotional discussion about definition and why you think there are degrees, because I don't understand where you're coming from (and since I need to know everything, I'd like to). It would be interesting to see the reasons of various people about where they draw the "line in the sand" . . . unfortunately, I think the conversation would be too defense-evoking to be productive or satisfy my curiosity . . .

Yeah, I think the whole conversation would be interesting but yet a UA violation. I can say, though, without advocating or condoning CIO in any way, I've read pretty much all the sleep books and there are definitely degrees to the CIO method. I get the sense, and maybe that is because of the UA, that CIO to many posters here is pictured as shutting the door and walking away, and some "sleep experts," like Weissbluth, do suggest that as a method. But Dr Ferber, for example, does not advocate that at all, not one bit, and crying for him is the absolute last resort.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

To the OP, I agree with PPs that it's probably more of a new habit being formed rather than any subconscious thought process about their needs being met or not.

What I found with baby #2 is that cosleeping was totally disruptive for him.







: I slept SO much better right to him but he would wake so frequently that I was not getting enough consolidated sleep. We moved him to his crib and we're in another room and he sleeps so much better and for much longer stretches of time. We have the monitor on full blast so we don't miss a movement...he just does better without hearing us moving or breathing.

I climb into bed with him at about 4am or 5am and we sleep together for another 2 or 3 hours so I'm getting that time with him but his sleep is interrupted during that time.

I'm just echoing the statements made about every baby being different.


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## wflcpw (Dec 4, 2006)

I let my DD CIO, when she was 1. 13 years ago....stupid, young mom. Well, she would fall asleep and cry, fall asleep and cry, all night long. It still hurts my heart. I believe she was waking up crying wondering where I was!!! So sad! When I went in in the morning, vomit was everywhere and her crib sheet was wadded up. I knew then and there, never again and no other child (3 more) has ever CIO again! I think it is the cruelest!


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Coming into this thread way late to comment that "sleep through the night" is technically 5 hours.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Coming into this thread way late to comment that "sleep through the night" is technically 5 hours.

"Technically", yes. But in the case of the person who sparked this question in my head in the first place, it was 10, sometimes 12 hours.







:


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## morgs2204 (May 14, 2006)

I do think some babies crash completely for the whole night, but it probably out of exhaustion from the CIO in and of itself.

My DS co-sleeps and even on the nights that he sleeps through, he still moves, sometimes sits up, falls back over, etc. I think only ONCE did he completely stay in place for 7 hours without really moving or stirring much.







:


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## Kate Carmichael (Mar 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *morgs2204* 
I do think some babies crash completely for the whole night, but it probably out of exhaustion from the CIO in and of itself.

Some babies/kids/adults are just really heavy sleepers. DS is like that, and always has been. I swear he doesn't even move position at night, once he's asleep. I can put away laundry in his room, vacuum, or dance a jig on his bed, and he sleeps right through it.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kate Carmichael* 
Some babies/kids/adults are just really heavy sleepers. DS is like that, and always has been. I swear he doesn't even move position at night, once he's asleep. I can put away laundry in his room, vacuum, or dance a jig on his bed, and he sleeps right through it.

What I would give for a heavy sleeper! Actually, I have one now but he is 4yo. My babies just seem to sleep lightly.

This conversation just points out to me what we all already know - all babies are different. I think Kate probably has the largest sample size from which to draw her observations! I'm in awe of how many babies you've taken in...I'm so glad there are people in the world who are willing to do that.

The OP was asking specifically about lengthening the sleep stretches...I believe that this has much more to do with new habits rather than giving up. With gentle methods, babies sleep stretches can usually lengthen. This doesn't mean STTN, but maybe one long stretch or, if you're lucky, two.


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## Kate Carmichael (Mar 14, 2006)

As I have posted on other threads, you can also use gentle methods to help your baby not see the transition between sleep cycles as a major catastrophe, or a time to get up and party. Babies cycle through several times in a night, and ultimately, they get longer sleep when they hit the end of one sleep cycle, realize it's dark and they're still sleepy, snuggle up, and go back to snoozing.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kate Carmichael* 









My daughter was one who would go "eh eh eh eh ehhhh!" in her sleep, without ever gaining full consciousness. When she was co-sleeping, my first tendency was to jump out of bed to console her. I quickly learned, though, that if I just put a hand on her belly, she'd quiet right down and go back into a deep sleep.

Yep. My #1 slept "through" from about 12 weeks on (midnight to 7am, usually). He usually slept one 4-5 hour stretch during the night from about 4 days on, and he was in a sidecarred basinette, right next to the bed. To make up for it, he cluster fed every night until he was 10 weeks old, nursing nearly constantly from about 6pm to 11pm. Then he'd sack out for 4-5 hours. One night when he was 11 weeks old, he sacked for 6, then 7.. by the time he was 5 months, he'd regularly sleep 8-ish hours, usually about 10pm-6am. All the time, he was either in bed with us or in the basinette against the bed, so I knew that at most, he'd shift and make that "eh eh," and my hand on his belly would comfort him enough to go back to sleep.

His sister, on the other hand, was up every 2-3 hours for her entire first year, with me doing exactly the same stuff. She also didn't cluster feed.


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