# Clostridium Difficile (C Diff)



## newmum35 (Aug 16, 2007)

Does anyone know if there is any chance of my 16 month old son knocking out a C. Diff infection on his own, WITHOUT flagyl or vancomycin?

He just came off antibiotics (augmentin) less than 24 hrs ago and his SEVERE WATERY DIARRHEA is supposed to get better within the next day or two. (He has had 3 days of it so far, but the first day it was originally loose, but within one day turned watery, and is now clear!!) I am highly suspecting this is actually a C. Diff. infection (I have had one about 1.5 years ago when I was pregnant with him!!) and not merely a bad side effect from the augmentin (of course, thats what triggered it!)

I am unsure whether to bring him in TOMORROW and insist on a stool culture (to confirm C. Diff) and thus, begin therapy right away - because C. Diff can be potentially life-threatening and can get worse quickly!!

Or to wait until friday when the dr will see him next and give him a few days to perhaps get better on his own ... if he gets worse and worse tomorrow, then obviously my question is answered and he probably has C. Diff, I will bring him right away. But if he stays the same or improves slightly? I just want to avoid another disaster (another round of antibiotics) unless its absolutely necessary.

HAS anyone fought a moderate or severe C. Diff infection on their own (and won) without flagyl or vancomycin??

According to this page (under "symptoms") he could be considered having a "severe" infection (because of the # of watery diarrhea per day, and because of loss of appetite (although he's still nursing very good):

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/c-difficile/DS00736

He now has a bad rash around his bum from the diarrhea, which is painful for him, I can hardly touch it with a wipe.

Anyone have experience with Clostridium Difficile either in yourself or in your child?? Please share your experience!! I may need to make a decision SOON (within a day or two) about his treatment, if it turns out he does have C. Diff

Of course Im hoping that he will get better and his diarrhea will improve tomorrow - I just am not sure if this is possible with a "severe" C. Diff infection - the page says it is possible with a "mild" infection, to recover from C. Diff. after stopping antibiotics.

Anyone recover from C. Diff without using a round of antibiotics?? (flagyl/vancomycin) - also any info on which one to use in a 16 month old would be appreciated!


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## koru (Sep 7, 2006)

No one in my household has ever had c. diff but I would take him in simply because of the amount of diarrhea. I'd be worried about dehydration...with a 16 month old, things can go downhill fairly quickly.

Are you giving your DS probiotics? I would definitely do that to restore the normal gut flora but it may be too late if the c.diff is already overgrown & the diarrhea is severe. It'll probably take both abx & probiotics to get him back into balance.


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## newmum35 (Aug 16, 2007)

The diarrhea is severe, and I am worried it might be too late and overgrown as you mention. I did start florastor with him last night. I talked to the ped. last evening, and again this morning on the phone (he had another 4 severe almost-clear watery diarrhea since last night) - since it hasn't yet been 24 hrs since he's been off the antibiotics, she thinks he may be ok since he is a healthy breast-fed baby, and would like to give him a few more days before doing a stool culture, because then he will need to be on antibiotics for C. Diff (assuming it turns up positive), and would like to avoid that if possible. I agreed to that (being that he is fairly happy and playing, and is still nursing well and drinking water) but I admit I am quite worried that he can't kick this on his own, and the damage from C. Diff to his intestine might be worse in 2 or 3 days. I am monitoring him closely of course. Also worried about possible electrolyte disturbance in 2 more days (from diarrhea) but he is nursing well and often.. If diarrhea worsens today I may bring him in sooner (tonight or tomorrow) instead of waiting til friday. I just hate to start the C. Diff antibiotic unless necessary, but I'm afraid that might be his only option I just don't know how realistic it is to expect he might recover on his own in a few days if it IS C. Diff (which I am feeling strongly that it IS C. Diff)


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

If he is happy and playing and nursing well, it sounds like you have good advice form your doc. I would wait, but I would be doing other things. S boulardii and other probiotics, absolutely no grains, sugar, limit fruit, etc for myself and the baby. Search for posts by WuWei on probiotics.


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## sbgrace (Sep 22, 2004)

Does it have the c. diff odor? If so I would culture. If he were hospitalized at this point he'd be in isolation while you waited on culture. If you don't have the odor I would possibly assume it is something else. We've had very severe watery diarrhea without having c. diff. They did culture in the hospital and also after a month at home when things continued. No c. diff but it was an overgrowth of something else. It did not go away with heavy probiotics/ without treatment.

But if you've got c. diff odor I personally would culture and try to wipe it out with vancomycin, florastor and culturelle or VSL#3. I would, though, think the florastor might knock it back enough not to pick up on it in culture and may even control symptoms. If you're ok with it being controlled I think it's worth a try. But if he's already colonized I don't think you'll actually wipe it out with probiotics. And I don't know if you'll get rid of symptoms either. Maybe. My son was doing heavy doses of culturelle and florastor and I still couldn't get things under control for him and it wasn't even c. diff.

You may know this but you can take florastor with the antibiotics. Antibiotics don't kill it. I always have florastor in the house just in case after our emergency hospital experience that led to our own mess.


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## newmum35 (Aug 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sbgrace* 
Does it have the c. diff odor? If so I would culture. If he were hospitalized at this point he'd be in isolation while you waited on culture. If you don't have the odor I would possibly assume it is something else. We've had very severe watery diarrhea without having c. diff. They did culture in the hospital and also after a month at home when things continued. No c. diff but it was an overgrowth of something else. It did not go away with heavy probiotics/ without treatment.

But if you've got c. diff odor I personally would culture and try to wipe it out with vancomycin, florastor and culturelle or VSL#3. I would, though, think the florastor might knock it back enough not to pick up on it in culture and may even control symptoms. If you're ok with it being controlled I think it's worth a try. But if he's already colonized I don't think you'll actually wipe it out with probiotics. And I don't know if you'll get rid of symptoms either. Maybe. My son was doing heavy doses of culturelle and florastor and I still couldn't get things under control for him and it wasn't even c. diff.


You know, I did think it curious that it does not have the c diff odor. I thought this was probably cause he was primarily breastfeeding. But I do recall a horrid odor with my own C Diff. When they cultured yours, what did it end up being? Because I know you can get some false negatives when they culture, so they will reculture several times (or they should) if one turns up negative. When this happened to you, did it have the odor, and what overgrowth was it?

I have florastor and sustenex and started him on both those already. I need to get culturelle or some kind of bifidum, will try to look today. If it does not clear up by friday or the weekend, she said they will be testing him - I'm just a little worried in the meantime, about electrolyte imbalances, and the seriousness of C. Diff (that it can progress from mild to severe very fast - you are supposed to get help asap if you know you have it)

He did have an appetite for a little container of applesauce, and a 1/2 jar of sweet potatoes, and some yogurt. (in addition to breastmilk today)

You mentioned about isolation - are you kidding me - how old was your child? Did this really happen to you? Mine is 16 months, there is no way I am leaving his side for anything at the hospital, I am not sure if that is even legal for them to try to make me do that, no matter what his infection. That is crazy. I had C. Dif in the hospital 1.5 years ago while I was pregnant, and my husband was right there in the room with me for several days until I was discharged, they never asked him to leave.


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## newmum35 (Aug 16, 2007)

Can someone please point me to some links on why vancomycin would be the better choice for him (instead of flagyl) IF it ends up being Clostridium Difficile? I would like to print out some stuff and request it over the flagyl if in fact it really is better for toddlers.


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## Krabs (Dec 20, 2008)

My FIL got C.Diff last year and was very sick. He ended up in the hospital for a week and was unable to work for a month. If it was me I would take it seriously, especially because you're saying your son was sick recently with something.


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## newmum35 (Aug 16, 2007)

update:

5 major diarrhea in last 8 hrs and guess what!!! 5th one at 3:30 pm: no more clear or pale water!!! It was pale yellow, very liquidy, softer, more watery than cottage cheese, but definitely not water!! Something there is changing- I think there might be hope he can beat this (whatever it is) before the stool culture in a few days. (or.. there may be no need for one, if he is getting significantly better by then!) I had given him contents of one capsule florastor (saccharomyces boulardii) and one sustenex (bacillus coagulans) earlier today when he ate applesauce, sweet potatoes, and some yogurt!! He's been nursing often, as usual, too. (Haven't yet found lactobacillus or bifidum, but may have them within the next day or so) I am somewhat relieved, already! My first glimmer of hope!! (He is still playing and happy, with no indications of dehydration. He is drinking water, and nursing good- not acting sickly.)


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## momtoalexsarah (May 21, 2005)

Take him in, please! The solids in the poop are likey from the food you fed him. My DD was acting normal but she was already in hospital and hooked up to IV because of another infection. Isolation means that you will have to glove and gown to leave the room (you don't have to in the room) they will give you a private room and you are expected to stay there except to get food (or go to the washroom if there is not one with the room). If you need to go get food from that cafeteria then you will have to see if you can arrage for a nurse to mind you child (I just went when she was sleeping, and told them she was not to be touched unless it was an emergency). You could also have your spouse or fiend come and be with you child for a little bit but they will have to follow the biosecurity rules.
It is better to know and get it treated. The vancomcyn is normaly a second line drug for C-diff but it has less side effects especially in children. There is also less chances of finding c-diff that is resistant to vanco then Flagyl, this I think would be especially true as you had flagyl to treat yours. If you are still a carrier then the bacteria you carry may be resistant to the flagyl because it wasn't enough to kill them.
Really the vanco wasn't that bad, it's given every 6 hours with or without food and does not kill floristor so you can continue with that.
How big is your son, my DD was 23lb when we left the hospital and we did 2 capsuals a day so I would go with a full dose of it.
Good luck, I know how scary it is, but as I said quik treatment is most effective, before any lasting digestive damage is done.


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## sbgrace (Sep 22, 2004)

Quote:

You mentioned about isolation - are you kidding me - how old was your child? Did this really happen to you? Mine is 16 months, there is no way I am leaving his side for anything at the hospital, I am not sure if that is even legal for them to try to make me do that, no matter what his infection. That is crazy. I had C. Dif in the hospital 1.5 years ago while I was pregnant, and my husband was right there in the room with me for several days until I was discharged, they never asked him to leave.
No, I'm not kidding but I think the picture in your mind was different than reality. He was hospitalized and on IV antibiotics. He got green watery stools with a horrific odor (filled up the room) though not the barn type c. diff smell exactly. So they suspected C. diff and put his room in isolation. He couldn't leave the room and they had to gown and glove up when they entered. Honestly? I was nearly positive he didn't have c. diff and I figured in isolation he had less chance of getting that or anything else! It was ok. But if a person is hospitalized and they have c. diff their room is isolation. You would be able to be with him. But don't skip to that...very unlikely!

I don't remember what the specific overgrowth was but it was bacterial (hence the horrible odor). We did several c. diff cultures, all negative.

Re the vanc vs. flagyl. You just have a better chance of getting it gone the first time with the vancomycin. Flagyl has a higher rate of failure. But they do usually use it first.

If it isn't c. diff and the probiotics don't get it you can treat with gentler/more natural things and likely get rid of it. We used P73 oregano oil along with florastor and culturelle.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmum35* 
update:

5 major diarrhea in last 8 hrs and guess what!!! 5th one at 3:30 pm: no more clear or pale water!!! It was pale yellow, very liquidy, softer, more watery than cottage cheese, but definitely not water!! Something there is changing- I think there might be hope he can beat this (whatever it is) before the stool culture in a few days. (or.. there may be no need for one, if he is getting significantly better by then!) I had given him contents of one capsule florastor (saccharomyces boulardii) and one sustenex (bacillus coagulans) earlier today when he ate applesauce, sweet potatoes, and some yogurt!! He's been nursing often, as usual, too. (Haven't yet found lactobacillus or bifidum, but may have them within the next day or so) I am somewhat relieved, already! My first glimmer of hope!! (He is still playing and happy, with no indications of dehydration. He is drinking water, and nursing good- not acting sickly.)

Not to burst your bubble, but as mentioned before, this may just be the food passing through. C. diff is nothing to mess around with. I was very, very sick with it for awhile and it was pretty scary really.

Since the symptoms point to it, the best thing to do is get a stool culture. Technically, you shouldn't even have to bring him in. If you really don't want to, call and explain the situation and tell them you want to pick up a stool kit first. The longer it goes on the worse it will be to fight it.


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## MommytoTwo (Jun 20, 2004)

My dad got C.Diff in the rehab/nursing home after a stroke and he was very very sick for months and months and lost 65 pounds. If I knew/thought my child had it I would probably even go to the ER. After I saw what my dad went thorough it would scare the (*#@ out of me.


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## Sarah W (Feb 9, 2008)

If I thought my child had C. Diff, I'd take them immediately to the ER. There's no way I'd wait and try anything else. It's just so severe.

My grandmother had C Diff and it was horrible. It almost killed her. It's tougher on infants and the elderly, but regular adults can get it and it can be difficult to shake. She had surgery and had been moved to a nursing home for rehabilitation. Rehab from the surgery was nothing, once she got rid of the C. Diff.

Re: Flagyl...They start out with Flagyl because it is a lot less expensive. If it doesn't work, they move on. Flagyl didn't work with my grandmother.


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## momtoalexsarah (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmum35* 
Can someone please point me to some links on why vancomycin would be the better choice for him (instead of flagyl) IF it ends up being Clostridium Difficile? I would like to print out some stuff and request it over the flagyl if in fact it really is better for toddlers.

I asked the pead why they where using oral vanco for Megan because she had been given it IV for several days prior and my understanding was that it didn't affect the GI track. She said I was right - in IV it can't get to the GI track just as when given Oral it can't get to the blood. The really nice thing is that there is no systemic side effects like flagyl. (I had flagyl for a uterine infection after DD1 was born and it messsed up my finger and toe nails (i still have fungul toe issues because of it)
My understanding is that it is understood that Vanco is first line for infants and toddlers - just tell them that you want Vanco not Flagyl, they will tell you it costs more, just bite the bullet. As I said find a compounding pharmacy at the hospital they will make you a batch, although you may need to wait an hour or so for them to do it.
With all the horror stories I've heard my DD's case was easily handled, we had a follow up test last week and haven't got the results back yet but the she has had no diarerha in almost a month now so it is looking good. We will be following a specific protocal if she ever gets and infection or needs surgury that requires antibiotics again to gaurd against the c-diff.


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## newmum35 (Aug 16, 2007)

He is about 30 lbs... no more bowel movements since 3:30 pm mentioned previously (8 hrs ago!) I was getting relieved, I thought he was getting over it naturally but now I'm getting worried all over again after reading your latest posts.. As mentioned, I am doing what the ped recommended, and waiting 2 or 3 days - if it does not resolve by weekend, she said they will test him. (Still, I questioned whether this was the best course of action, thus, my posts!) I am so confused now what to do.

My pediatrician wasn't particularly worried about him even though I mentioned I had C Diff before, and she knew this was a possibility? There is NO odor to his stools - not the horrid odor I had when I had C. Diff. Does it produce odor in breastfed toddlers too? I told her I was worried he might have C. Diff. She wasn't that worried, I don't know why! She said he was a breastfed baby, healthy, and would be fine. I think she wanted to give him a few days because otherwise he will need to be on antibiotics again for the infection.

I am getting scared again. What if I bring him to ER and he's on another round of antibiotics all for nothing! What if I don't, and she's wrONG! The diarrhea has not continued for the past 8 hours - so , should I be as worried now? He did pee fine a few hours ago, and is nursing often, although hasn't had much appetite for anything else today. He played at the playground today with lots of energy, which I think wore him out, cause he's kind of tired, clingy and cranky tonight even though he had a few naps.

I am going to see what time, and what consistency the next bowel movement is. I have been writing them down. He hasn't had one for so long now! I touched his abdomen gently and he didn't cry so I don't think its overly tender. His rash seems to be getting better somewhat.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Mama, if you could post to one thread, so that folks had 'the rest of the story', it'd help them not to scare you to death with partial information.

Your child was given antibiotics. 25-40% of everyone who takes antibiotics gets "antibiotic associated diarrhea". It ceases within about 72 hours after stopping the antibiotics. There are probiotics which help recolonize the gut. You are giving them. Yogurt has lactobacillis also. There is bifidum in your breastmilk.

Breathe. Plenty of folks take antibiotics and get diarrhea and it resolves. And you are replacing the "good bacteria" in multiple ways. Sleep, mama. It will be ok. It is scary when our children are ill, I understand. But, the risk of C. diff developing now, is quite small. You stopped the antibiotic. He is a healthy little guy. He is breastfed, hydrated, playing with a lot of energy. Your panic doesn't help him, or you. Breathe.

He is healing from the antibiotics which are harsh on a child's gut.

Pat


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## mommyofatoz (Dec 15, 2008)

battery is about to die, but I wanted to say that my breastfed baby did get the odor with c.diff...


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## sbgrace (Sep 22, 2004)

Ok. I went back to look at your other posts now too.
You are thinking worst case and I really think it's not c. diff. You'd have odor and worse symptoms. Indeed diarrhea is really common in antibiotic usage without probiotics. And most of those are not c. diff. I understand your concern given your own experience and what you're reading here.
But usually people who aren't hospitalized are not picking up c. diff after a round of antibiotics..particularly breastfed babies who are (via breastmilk) getting some good bacteria. Relax and continue probiotics. I think he'll be fine. If the stools continue you can culture.


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## mommyofatoz (Dec 15, 2008)

Before we found out that my ds had c.diff, there was a smell. He also screamed during feeding (cause his belly hurt). He started to lose weight. My milk started to decrease. It was a nightmare. I it did take a while to find out what it was. I had a lot of help form the people at TBW, in fact I believe the whole thing is there somewhere, though this was back in 2006/07. They thought maybe it was allergies and I should have his stool tested. This was not even something the dr. had mentioned trying. So I requested it and that is how c.diff was discovered. He had never seen c.diff in a child, so requested another test be done for it, and sure enough...positive again. It took three rounds of antibiotics to get rid of it, and during the third time is when I started the florastor. I believe the probiotics combined with the antibiotics is what finally kicked it. Unfortunately, my milk took a huge hit and I don't think even domperidone helped me that much, but it did a little. I had to supplement with formula. I was able to nurse him until a year, though, and I felt that was a great accomplishment considering our circumstances.

So, I would say, w/out the smell, I wouldn't think of it being c.diff, but if you are worried, I would get the test...like others have said, it could just be runny stools from the antibiotics he was on...


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## newmum35 (Aug 16, 2007)

Today was day 5 of diarrhea. Day 1 he had diarrhea four times (watery).. Day 2 he had four also. Day 3 he had nine! Day 4 he had five and day 5 (today) he had 6 so far (still counting).

As of right now it has been 58 hrs since last dose of antibiotic (augmentin) was given. (he had 9 out of 14 doses. We stopped on day 5, and he never had the evening dose)

I had THOUGHT he was getting better this morning, when, after writing down the time of his latest diarrhea, it indicated an 18 hr stretch since the last one!!

But, TODAY is the first day (IN HIS LIFE) that is is acting sick!!! He is not playing. Crying, cranky, sleepy, low fever. Wants to be held ALL THE TIME. He had 6 major watery diarrhea today. Since they were all in the toilet (most of previous ones were in the diaper) - he went on potty for all of them - I was unable to compare to diapers, but they all look mostly clear water, sometimes pale yellow cloudy water, with floating or sinking pale yellow things.

It does not appear (to me) that he is getting better. I have a container ready for the next time he goes (hoping they can use that for a stool culture).

Tomorrow morning (12 hrs from now) is our appt with the doctor. If she wants to do stool culture, I'm hoping she can use ours so there is no further time wasted. (I will likely collect one upon waking up in the morning - he always goes potty then)

I am doubting C. Diff now (because there is no foul odor) - I remember a pudrid odor (and much, putrid gas) when I had it. And he does not. I am clueless now, if it is not C. Diff, what it is?

I hope we get this figured out.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Don't be too surprised if they don't accept you sample. They really need it to be collected in a sterile container to make sure they don't have outside contamination with the results. It's worth a shot though.

I hope you get some answers tomorrow.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Sometimes probiotics themselves can cause some diarrhea. If he seemed like he was getting better, it could be due to that in part, if you are really pushing the probiotics. Are you giving him something with S boulardii in it? That is supposed to be very good for abx-associated D. Augmentin is a pretty strong abx. I feel for you, my child had gut damage form only one round of abx also, and it took a long time to get things back to normal. You might want to limit all raw fruit right now. Can you try to give him things like homemade chicken soup? Broth, carrots, chicken, all really well-cooked. Like what is on the intro diet for the Specific Carbohydrate Diet. If I thought my child had a major bacterial something or other from an antibiotic, I would immediately start that diet.

http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.i...ntro_diet2.htm

You might not have to do it for very long. Good luck.


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## newmum35 (Aug 16, 2007)

Yesterday I gave 2 each of florastor and sustenex, but today only one each. He barely ate today so it was all I could do to get the contents of one mixed into something. (He is still nursing well just not appetite for much else) - I certainly don't want to make things worse so I am not sure if I will continue tomorrow. I don't really think it made things worse, he had a ton of the same diarrhea before we even began. Right after we started probiotics he got slightly better for 1/2 day. So I thought, great its working already! Then return of the same diarrhea the next day, only this time he feels sick too!

On another note, my time online is severely limited right now , I am trying to find more info about the Augmentin he was put on. I think it is called augmentin600 (the paper is downstairs right now) I found one link but couldn't sign up to read it all (blocking cookies or something?)

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-96695165.html

If anyone can message me the entire article (or find more links online about anything related to it, patient complaints, bad experiences or similar experiences) I would appreciate it.

I believe it was so wrong of them to put him on this stuff, being his first ear infection ever, and with no symptoms at all other than a red ear (in one ear). I am wondering why they did this, and if its because he was not vaxed for hib. I saw it was mentioned on that page. I am so angry. When I started the antibiotic I really thought it was the same amoxicillin I have been on in the past (never got diarrhea) - I figured it was white liquid (mine was capsules) cause he was a baby and that it was merely the liquid form.. I only later realized this is much more potent stuff and completely different than regular amoxicillin.


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## newmum35 (Aug 16, 2007)

I apoloize for telling our story in different posts - didn't realize it would only confuse things. I guess I should only post here from now on. Here is my previous post for the rest of the story:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...php?p=13266238


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

I hear your anger, I have felt it too. Abx are just not the answer they are made out to be. But all you can do now is keep moving on and try to repair the damage. I would make that SCD chicken soup, try to get him to eat some of that, maybe even blend it. Keep nursing. I wasn't suggesting stopping the probiotics. But it sounds like you are saying you gave him less probiotics today and now he is worse? Just look back at what you have done over the past couple of days and try to determine what dose of probiotics was helpful. Maybe you need to give more. Hope he is feeling better soon.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Just read on your other thread you were asking maybe he doesn't need probiotics after stopping the abx. Now is when he does need them. He needs them very badly now and you need to keep doing them for some time. But also don't be feeding junk along with them. No dairy, no raw fruit, and if it were me I would be doing the SCD or something very similar to it.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

How are you all doing today, mama. I agree with momofmine.

Pat


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## newmum35 (Aug 16, 2007)

update:

we saw the ped. this morning. I told her I was worried about him, that he was lethargic yesterday, and not playing, only wants held, low fever, etc. And gave her all my notes on how many diarrheas he's had each day, etc. She was STILL not concerned about him at all!! She wants to give him another WEEK to get over the diarrhea, and felt it was merely because of the antibiotic, and nothing more!!

In the meantime, she gave me 2 sterile containers to collect a stool sample. She at first gave me just 1, and I said, can I have 2, because of the false negatives that show up with C. Diff? (So now I'm worried she doens't know what she's doing, since she didn't think to give me 2 instead of 1)

I was able to collect a small stool sample (watery, still, no improvement) at 11:30 and get it to the hospital within an hour, but they said it would be up to 2 days before results are back! They are going to test for other things besides C. Diff (botulism, I think, and not sure what else - other bacteria, I think)

She said she was not worried about dehydration as long as he was drinking, and nursing, even though we are now on day 6 of profuse diarrhea. She said I COULD do a blood draw and check for potassium, and if low we could do iv, but she didn't recommend it yet, she feels it not necessary.

He slept all day practically until 4 pm, now for the past hour, he's been acting normally since he woke up, for which I am somewhat relieved! No fever, and smiling, laughing, and acting normal!

However, I am now concerned about something else (Should I be??)

When the dr was listening to his heart, and his shirt was up, I saw some little red dots on his belly, I pointed them out, and said something like, oh, is this anything? I don't think she responded, or dismissed me with a head shake or something (I honestly can't remember) - I don't think she responded verbally, and now I'm worried she might not have heard me at all. When he woke from his nap at 4 pm, I noticed the red dots were now slightly raised above the skin (can feel them with fingertips) and they are now down his legs and everywhere, not just the belly area.

I might call soon (especially if they get worse) and ask if she remembers seeing them on him, and whether this is something I should be concerned about. (but what if she is not the one on call tonight??)

What does everyone think about this - am I worried for nothing, or could this be something serious for which I should go to ER? (I'm seriously ready to bring him to ER in another hospital at any point, I just don't want to goof up and expose him to more things right now while he is so vulnerable, unless its absolutely necessary, and I feel it might be life or death)

I did have to bring him into hospital today to drop off his stool sample (and we will collect the 2nd one this evening)

I am hoping he will be ok here at home for a few more days until lab results come back. He seems happy at the moment, thank god!!!

In the meantime, to add more worry to the fire, I am getting sick too - was nauseated last night and today, and actually threw up!! (I NEVER throw up!!) and my bowel movements have gotten progressively thinner (nothing like his though) and I am wondering what in the world is going on!!! My stomach hurts too and I NEVER get the flu and haven't gotten it for probably 20 years. The only time I felt this way was when I had C. Diff 2 years ago (which I think I might have picked up from visiting the hospital during pregnancy, and cause they had put me on antibiotics, which made me vulnerable too!) They tried to tell me I had the flu. I knew better. Within a few days we found out I had C. Diff.

I am so confused right now - I am even suspecting something in our tap water, because unfortunately we've been drinking the tap water for the past several months (had been too busy to get out to spring for some fresh)

I'm just so confused and not sure what to think of those red dots (and my illness)


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

It is not impossible that the dots are part of his healing. I wouldn't concern myself about them, unless they worsen and don't go away over several weeks. The antibiotics disrupt the microflora in the gut in ways much more commonly than c. diff. Diarrhea after antibiotics is so common, they have a name for it. "Antibiotic induced diarrhea".

A bunch of different illness exposures could have occurred. We are constantly exposed to germs. I trust his healthy, breastfed body to handle illness. Most children get an average of 8 illnesses a year, cold, flu, GI, fevers. Your stress has probably stressed your own immune system. That stresses his immune system further as you are so interconnected. Mama, quit reading all the "What Ifs", they call it Medical-itis when doctors do it in school. It is a common ailment of reading the "worst case scenario".

_C. difficile_ doesn't normally cause trouble for healthy people. Most of the recent cases of _C. difficile_ have been reported in hospitals and nursing homes. There are approximately 3 million cases of C. diff each year in 300 million people. That is only 1% of the population. Most of them are not healthy, breastfed babies who are home with their attentive mother.

The rate of C. difficile acquisition is estimated to be 13 percent in patients with hospital stays of up to two weeks and 50 percent in those with hospital stays longer than four weeks.

You've sent the stool for culture and sensitivity. C. diff is responsible for 15 to 20 percent of antibiotic-related cases of diarrhea. But, the likelihood of your baby having C. diff is small.

I hope that you can get some rest tonight. That will help you both, whether it is or isn't c. diff.









It is hard when your baby is sick. Trust the body to heal itself, don't re-start the cascade of side-effects of jumping to intervene. The ER is full of germs. The ER is reactive and invasive. The ER is for emergencies. You all need some sleep, hydration and time to heal. The body has an amazing ability to heal itself.







:

Did you vaccinate this week? Are you continuing the probiotics?

Pat


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## newmum35 (Aug 16, 2007)

Going on 3 hrs now since he woke up, and he's still his happy usual self! Seeing him acting so normally now, it appears he is getting better. We have only counted 3 diarrhea so far today (I am guessing he might have 1 or 2 more tonight) Seeing him taking a sudden turn for the better will do me a world of good tonight, I'm sure. His red dots have gone down somewhat and are not worse, they may even be going away (can barely see them now, sort of like he was at the drs today)

I got him to drink some pedialyte that the dr prescribed for him after I expressed concern over possible electrolyte imbalance. He didn't drink a lot, I'm not sure he liked it at first. Then later he drank a little more. What does everyone here think of pedialyte? A good thing during this time? It does have a lot of sugar, I think..

To be honest, I'm totally confused now regarding the probiotics. We (both) had been taking them for just a few days, and since we both started getting more sick, I thought just maybe that was contributing. If not the florastor, maybe it was the sustenex one. So we haven't done any today. I am almost afraid to start again, given that he is so much better. The only time in my life I remember taking them is after I had the C. Diff, I took a bottle of florastor over the next month or so. Maybe my system just isn't used to them. Maybe that could be why my stomach hurts now and I am nauseated? I really am confused on whether they helped, hurt, or did nothing for us- but for the time being, I'm relieved- planning to stay home and get some sleep tonight - I hardly got any last night- he's playing once again and acting normally.. the red dots are going down, and he seems happy and babbling away.

No vaccinations recently- we finished the DTaP series around 7 months.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

I hope your anxiety is easing, but really, you will know when if your child is so sick he needs to go to the ER. You won't be doubting. That's my opinion about 99% of attentive mothers. It sounds like everything is fine. Even your mainstream doc was not concerned, so I would just watch your child and keep doing things to get his body through this and heal his gut. It is not at all surprising that it will take a long time for the flora in his gut to get back to normal. He had some very strong antibiotics. So you shouldn't expect it to all be back to normal instantly. But he is improving, he is happy and playing, he is nursing well, so all those things mean that his body is healthy and strong and is just working on recovering. Keep up with the probiotics and SCD chicken soup!


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## newmum35 (Aug 16, 2007)

update:

The results from the 1st stool culture came back this morning - POSITIVE for C DIFF - this was my fear, right?!? (the other results take longer to culture and should be back soon)

Ok, so get this - we are not to treat it (she mentioned Flagyl was the antibiotic of choice if it came to that, and NOT vancomycin- I asked about it) and it is still not cause for alarm! My ped. consulted an infectious disease specialist (shouldn't she have consulted a gastroenterologist? or are they the same in this situation?) at the childrens hospital at a city near us (about an hour away) who told her that 50% of all kids his age (he is 16 months) test postive for C Diff and you don't need to even test a stool culture unless there is mucous or blood in it.

So she was asking me about if there was mucous in it, and I didnt think so but wasn't exactly sure how she meant - she said "white stuff" and so I said no, there appears to be pale yellow stuff. (of course I hadn't examined the diapers from the first 3 or 4 days all that carefully) I mostly noted it was almost all water and then discarded. No blood, I would have seen that. Now I'm thinking, what if there HAD been mucous in the past (intestinal lining? is that what they are suspecting?) and it already shed, and now there is no more in the current bowel movements? I keep worrying about the possible damage to his intestine, having read a ton about C. Diff already.

She said as long as he is playing, acting normal, no fever, etc, not to worry and to give him ONE week from the time he stopped the antibiotic. Today he is playing as usual and not sick like the other day, he appears to be doing very good for which I am very relieved.

When I talked to her it has been 4 days since the last dose of antibiotic... so I have to wait 3 more days, and he should start improving by then (diarrhea should be getting better, that is!)

So now I'm thinking... there are 3 possibilities:

1) diarrhea improves, starts looking less like water, and more like poo

2) stays the same

3) he gets worse - gets a fever, starts acting cranky, etc

Naturally I'm hoping for #1. I'm thinking that IF #3 THEN MAYBE they might take C DIFF seriously? But... what if #2 (he stays the same) -- are they going to tell me (again) to wait longer? (as long as he's playing and not acting sick) - how long is TOO long to go with SEVERE watery diarrhea?

I did ask her about the probiotics (I didn't mention any brand names however), and she assured me they were safe, and were not making his diarrhea worse. The day following introduction of 2 capsules each florastor and sustenex, was his SICK day- fever, not playing, cranky, sleepy. So naturally I start to be skeptical and not sure if that was merely a cooincidence or if the probiotics could actually be a bad thing. I later looked up more info on them, I had already found out florastor was safe for 2 months and older, but then noticed sustenex said 12 years and older. So now I'm worried one was good, and one was bad. The first day he had 2 of each, the 2nd day just one of each, and then I stopped and he's had none at all for the past 2 days.

However I completely forgot to mention about the red dots (which seem to come and go) - they were worst when he woke up from his nap. I almost called back later to ask about it, just to be safe but then they disappeared again within an hour. Each time they appear, they are worse (more red, and raised, and more of them) than the previous time they appeared!

After researching online of various symptoms, I believe that he has "serum sickness" and this is what the red rash is!! I'm definitely going to be calling about it tomorrow. Google it, and you will read about what it is, basically a delayed allergic reaction to the antibiotic!!!

The fever always precedes the rash, which appears 7-14 days after exposure. He got the fever the day before I noticed the red dots for the first time (which was exactly 7 days AFTER his first dose of antibiotic)

Now I realize I COULD be wrong and jumping to conclusions, but IF I am correct, he is not only having a bad diarrhea brought about by the antibiotic of course, BUT He is ALSO ALLERGIC to it, AND guess what---- DIARRHEA is one of the symptoms of serum sickness! (nausea is also listed, and remember, he has had NO appetite - it is a struggle to encourage him to eat just a little bit, aside from nursing which he has no problem with)

So in light of THIS new knowledge, just gained tonight, I would say the fact that he got the fever the day after the probiotics was a cooincidence and he would have gotten sick anyway even if we had not done the probiotics.. I am likely going to restart the florastor tomorrow (but not going to do sustenex just to be safe) as his culture DID test postive for C DIFF and the florastor has been shown to help with C Diff.

Whew, please continue to share your comments, anyone- thank you!!


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## momtoalexsarah (May 21, 2005)

I'm shocked that they didn't treat for it thats insane - and yes most often they don't test kids under 1 year for c-diff because it occures naturaly in a baby that is breastfed (and for up to 18m after nursing finishes). In megans case I was not surprized that it was still present as she had only weaned about 12 months before, but hers overgrew.
I wonder if you dr is thinking that your son is strong enough to beat this on his own - with my DD she had just had major facial reconstruction surgury and was in hospital for septic infection when they found it - she had gone from 26.5lb to 22.5 in a week and is already very small for a nearly 3yo. That may be why they treated her aggressivly - but it worked andher tests are clean now. I just don't understand why they would let it go


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

I would call another doc if I were you. That's just my opinon though. This doc seems very lax about this and I don't know if that's a good thing. I'd call a doc unrelated to this one and not mention any names either.

I am not sure if you mentioned this before or not, but was this the same doc that prescribed the antibiotics in the first place? I think it is, but just checking. It's interesting that the doc that I was seeing when I had c-diff did all kinds of tests but wouldn't test for c-diff. I didn't know enough to ask for it either. Finally I was so sick that my dad brought me to my old GI and they diagnosed it right away with some interesting words about regarding why it was let to go so long by the other doc. The other doc had prescribed Flagyl for something and I wasn't comfortable with it but took it against my better judgment. Flagyl put me in the ER after three doses.

I guess what I am wondering is if some docs try to blow it off if it seems that perhaps something in their treatment plan may have caused the situation.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Personally, I think it's a good thing that this doc is being conservative about the use of MORE antibiotics. It is true that many people will test positive for c diff, especially young children, (maybe they pick it up being born int he hospital?? who knows). He had some very strong antibiotics, and I don't think you can expect it to be back to normal so quickly. I would be seeking out an alternative health car practitioner who could advise me on what to do to heal his gut, though it sounds like he is improving on his own anyway, even though you stopped the probiotics. Did you look into doing the SCD for a few weeks? That's only my opinion, and what I would be doing, not trying to find a different doctor who would give me antibiotics again. You are saying he is happy, playing, nursing well, those are all good signs. Yes, the rash could be a delayed allergic reaction, but what are you going to do for it? He just needs time to get it out of his system. I am so sorry you are going through this, but this is the kind of havoc that is caused by antibiotics in the first place. They have their place, but there are usually so many other options and we are creating more problems by using antibiotics instead.


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## mommyofatoz (Dec 15, 2008)

I did not know that 50% of children tested positive for this. My doctor seemed shocked to find it in my sons stool when he was about 6 months. have you researched this to make sure it's accurate?

My son was given the flagyl...I believe that is what they start with until they determine it will not work, cause the vanco is strong stuff. (keep in mind I reasearched all of this 2+ years ago, so some things may not be accurate)

I honestly don't remember if there was mucous in my sons' stool...I just knew he had diarrhea, wasn't eating, even screaming when I tried to feed him, and that awful smell. I don't think he ever had a fever.

I definately think you should get him started on the florastor (that is the exact stuff I gave to my ds, and I feel that is what finally kicked it, though it was in combination with the flagyl and then continued for some time after flagyl was gone.), and perhaps even seek a second opinion. I just think it is nasty stuff and it was so hard for us to beat and really did damage to our breastfeeding relationship.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmum35* 
update:

The results from the 1st stool culture came back this morning - POSITIVE for C DIFF - this was my fear, right?!? (the other results take longer to culture and should be back soon)

Ok, so get this - we are not to treat it (she mentioned Flagyl was the antibiotic of choice if it came to that, and NOT vancomycin- I asked about it) and it is still not cause for alarm! My ped. consulted an infectious disease specialist (shouldn't she have consulted a gastroenterologist? or are they the same in this situation?) at the childrens hospital at a city near us (about an hour away) who told her that 50% of all kids his age (he is 16 months) test postive for C Diff and you don't need to even test a stool culture unless there is mucous or blood in it.

So she was asking me about if there was mucous in it, and I didnt think so but wasn't exactly sure how she meant - she said "white stuff" and so I said no, there appears to be pale yellow stuff. (of course I hadn't examined the diapers from the first 3 or 4 days all that carefully) I mostly noted it was almost all water and then discarded. No blood, I would have seen that. Now I'm thinking, what if there HAD been mucous in the past (intestinal lining? is that what they are suspecting?) and it already shed, and now there is no more in the current bowel movements? I keep worrying about the possible damage to his intestine, having read a ton about C. Diff already.

She said as long as he is playing, acting normal, no fever, etc, not to worry and to give him ONE week from the time he stopped the antibiotic. Today he is playing as usual and not sick like the other day, he appears to be doing very good for which I am very relieved.

When I talked to her it has been 4 days since the last dose of antibiotic... so I have to wait 3 more days, and he should start improving by then (diarrhea should be getting better, that is!)

So now I'm thinking... there are 3 possibilities:

1) diarrhea improves, starts looking less like water, and more like poo

2) stays the same

3) he gets worse - gets a fever, starts acting cranky, etc

Naturally I'm hoping for #1. I'm thinking that IF #3 THEN MAYBE they might take C DIFF seriously? But... what if #2 (he stays the same) -- are they going to tell me (again) to wait longer? (as long as he's playing and not acting sick) - how long is TOO long to go with SEVERE watery diarrhea?

I did ask her about the probiotics (I didn't mention any brand names however), and she assured me they were safe, and were not making his diarrhea worse. The day following introduction of 2 capsules each florastor and sustenex, was his SICK day- fever, not playing, cranky, sleepy. So naturally I start to be skeptical and not sure if that was merely a cooincidence or if the probiotics could actually be a bad thing. I later looked up more info on them, I had already found out florastor was safe for 2 months and older, but then noticed sustenex said 12 years and older. So now I'm worried one was good, and one was bad. The first day he had 2 of each, the 2nd day just one of each, and then I stopped and he's had none at all for the past 2 days.

However I completely forgot to mention about the red dots (which seem to come and go) - they were worst when he woke up from his nap. I almost called back later to ask about it, just to be safe but then they disappeared again within an hour. Each time they appear, they are worse (more red, and raised, and more of them) than the previous time they appeared!

After researching online of various symptoms, I believe that he has "serum sickness" and this is what the red rash is!! I'm definitely going to be calling about it tomorrow. Google it, and you will read about what it is, basically a delayed allergic reaction to the antibiotic!!!

The fever always precedes the rash, which appears 7-14 days after exposure. He got the fever the day before I noticed the red dots for the first time (which was exactly 7 days AFTER his first dose of antibiotic)

Now I realize I COULD be wrong and jumping to conclusions, but IF I am correct, he is not only having a bad diarrhea brought about by the antibiotic of course, BUT He is ALSO ALLERGIC to it, AND guess what---- DIARRHEA is one of the symptoms of serum sickness! (nausea is also listed, and remember, he has had NO appetite - it is a struggle to encourage him to eat just a little bit, aside from nursing which he has no problem with)

So in light of THIS new knowledge, just gained tonight, I would say the fact that he got the fever the day after the probiotics was a cooincidence and he would have gotten sick anyway even if we had not done the probiotics.. I am likely going to restart the florastor tomorrow (but not going to do sustenex just to be safe) as his culture DID test postive for C DIFF and the florastor has been shown to help with C Diff.

Whew, please continue to share your comments, anyone- thank you!!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
Personally, I think it's a good thing that this doc is being conservative about the use of MORE antibiotics. It is true that many people will test positive for c diff, especially young children, (maybe they pick it up being born int he hospital?? who knows). He had some very strong antibiotics, and I don't think you can expect it to be back to normal so quickly. I would be seeking out an alternative health car practitioner who could advise me on what to do to heal his gut, though it sounds like he is improving on his own anyway, even though you stopped the probiotics. Did you look into doing the SCD for a few weeks? That's only my opinion, and what I would be doing, not trying to find a different doctor who would give me antibiotics again. You are saying he is happy, playing, nursing well, those are all good signs. Yes, the rash could be a delayed allergic reaction, but what are you going to do for it? He just needs time to get it out of his system. I am so sorry you are going through this, but this is the kind of havoc that is caused by antibiotics in the first place. They have their place, but there are usually so many other options and we are creating more problems by using antibiotics instead.









:

I'd give the probiotics and avoid MORE antibiotics.

Pat


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## newmum35 (Aug 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
I would be seeking out an alternative health car practitioner who could advise me on what to do to heal his gut, though it sounds like he is improving on his own anyway, even though you stopped the probiotics. Did you look into doing the SCD for a few weeks? That's only my opinion, and what I would be doing, not trying to find a different doctor who would give me antibiotics again..


I remember looking several times for an alternative health provider and havent found any in my area. I will try to look again soon. It is a good idea. I would LOVE to have one for his permanent dr, but they are scarce in my area.

Today for the first time, his bowel movement sounded less like passing water, and more like poo plopping into the toilet! When I looked later, I could see a very loosely somewhat formed poo floating in the toilet!! AND he only went ONCE today so far (in the last 12 hrs!!) woo-hoo!! I am no longer concerned about C Diff - I am confident the specialist at the big childrens hospital was correct on this (I am thinking the dr didnt want to goof up again and prescribe another unnecessary antibiotic - the one on call this weekend was the 1st one who originally prescribed it for him) otherwise he's been seen by the 2nd dr ever since.

I might get a completely 2nd opinion on all this (especially his rash) at a completely different practice in another area anyway, if I can get seen within a few days that is (while he still has the rash) - I called the ped (the dr on call was the 1st dr- who I didn't like the fact that she put him on unnecessary antibiotics in the first place) and told her about the rash (I didnt mention "serum sickness" cause I wasnt real sure and I didnt want to be playing doctor myself over the phone) and her first thought was a "heat rash." I wasn't real happy with this answer- I had told her it was more prominent upon waking up and during bath. Then I said he's never had one before and he's had lots of warm baths and we keep the house cool (she mentioned the heat is up this time of year) I reminded her of the fever he had on Thursday and the spots started the next day. She thought maybe it was a virus he picked up, and that they can sometimes cause a rash for a few days following a fever.

She asked me whether I changed his detergent (no - I use all natural kind, I forget the name offhand, its purchased online and is white powder in a box), wore new clothes on him without washing them first (no) etc.

She asked if the spots were itchy and I said I didn't think they were, that I only saw him scratching it once, I think. (his belly) ... but otherwise, he's still playing and appears happy, etc. It doesnt seem to bother him. She said if it gets worse I can have him seen in a day or two, etc..

I'm definitely going to be calling in the morning (mon) to be seen, as I want this seen in person, and not through a phone description. I asked her whether she thought it had anything to do with his diarrhea, the c. diff, or the anitibiotic, and she said "no" !!!

I was speechless... (not the answer I expected) --I said I would try to get him seen in a day or two, as she suggested.

I am suprised she didnt consider the possibility of a reaction to his medicine. I didnt want to go into detail of the "serum sickness" possibility over the phone, but I'm hoping to get an appt with the 2nd dr tomorrow, and see what SHE thinks, and then I will mention that I think this could be a delayed allergic reaction to his medicine, and see what they think? Online it did say the symptoms could be mild (which I think he has a rather mild case of it) or severe (with huge purple hives etc)

I'm just afraid he could be allergic to penicillin based antibiotics and want it documented as such (IF that is true) to avoid worse scenerios in the future god forbid he would ever have a real NEED for abx when he gets older. Only I'm not sure how to prove the "allergy" is real, or even IF there is a test for that or not (more questions for the dr) - - - I will be asking lots of questions tomorrow and may even see another dr for a 2nd opinion too (from aNOTHER practice) about all of this. I definitely don't plan on seeking MORE antibiotics from another dr if he doens't need them (and seeing as his diarrhea is improving, I believe he does NOT need to be treated for c diff, and that he does NOT have the manifestations of c diff disease even though he tested positive - I think they were right on that)

I printed out all about the link (diet) you sent me but havent had time to make anything from it yet... luckily he was eager to eat a rice/chicken casserole my husband made (even though it contained one bad ingredient - dairy - in the form of cheese) and today his appetite is returning somewhat, and he ate oatmeal, and the casserole (and yesterday he had the rice casserole too) and I think this really helped him.. I gave him a little florastor today, not a lot, maybe 1/3 of capsule. A spoonful or two of yogurt. I will continue with smaller quantities of the florastor until he is back to normal again.

I just need to find out WHAT this rash is, and whether it is in fact related to his antibiotic, or was merely a cooincidence. I took some photos of it, not sure how they came out yet, but I will try to do another bath and get more pictures tonight. I'm afraid the rash will disappear before he's able to be seen. Today is the 3rd day of the rash. The spots come and go but when they "go" they are actually there still but you can hardly see them and have to look close to find them. When they are more prominent, then you can feel them raised above the skin, with your fingers, and they are darker pink/red and much easier to see ---- all over his face, arms, belly, legs, feet, etc.

It began in his torso area (chest/belly) on friday morning. Spread down to his legs, and over his whole body. I thought I saw him rubbing his face often but I thought that's cause he was tired. Now Im wondering if it could actually be slightly itchy after all. So Im trying to watch him. Today I saw him scratch his neck, but only once. (But does a 16 month old really "scratch?" he hasnt really learned this yet lol)


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## newmum35 (Aug 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofatoz* 
I did not know that 50% of children tested positive for this. My doctor seemed shocked to find it in my sons stool when he was about 6 months. have you researched this to make sure it's accurate?

My son was given the flagyl...I believe that is what they start with until they determine it will not work, cause the vanco is strong stuff. (keep in mind I reasearched all of this 2+ years ago, so some things may not be accurate)

I honestly don't remember if there was mucous in my sons' stool...I just knew he had diarrhea, wasn't eating, even screaming when I tried to feed him, and that awful smell. I don't think he ever had a fever.

I definately think you should get him started on the florastor (that is the exact stuff I gave to my ds, and I feel that is what finally kicked it, though it was in combination with the flagyl and then continued for some time after flagyl was gone.), and perhaps even seek a second opinion. I just think it is nasty stuff and it was so hard for us to beat and really did damage to our breastfeeding relationship.

Well apparently thats what the infectious disease specialist thought - the fact he was nursing well and not having OTHER symptoms of the C. Diff disease (other than a positive culture) - were not cause for alarm... They said if he got a fever, or started acting cranky, etc, to let them know.

I think the awful smell could be a clue too. When I had C Diff the odor was unreal, and he has NONE to his liquid watery diarrhea. (They never mentioned to me about odor though) - now I'm thinking maybe that was my clue not to worry?

I mostly started panicking the day he DID get the fever and had to be HELD ALL DAY LONG!!!! only sick day in his life!!!! This was before we knew he was ++ pos. for C. Diff and I knew those were bad signs!! (fever, cranky, etc) so naturally I was scared.

I did find in my research young kids (a large percentage) and a smaller percentage of adults DO test positive for C. Diff without ever having symptoms of the actual disease (asympomatic carriers, I think) - they can pass it to others though.

My own GI issues seem to have resolved (Im guessing it was caused by sustenex probiotic) - I took a few capsules one or two days. I stopped that one, and only continued with florastor --- no issues are returning. I am suspecting the sustenex just doens't agree with me, and plus I was super worried during that time about my son, and didnt eat right that day, or sleep well. Me and my son are both taking florastor as a precaution, but giving him only part of a capsule, and myself the recommended 1 or 2 capsules per day.

All is looking brighter - today he had a really GOOD day - I am just so confused what this rash is and whether it is a true allergic reaction or not. Diarrhea and nausea are listed as symptoms of serum sickness. He fits the bill perfectly.


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## newmum35 (Aug 16, 2007)

:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama* 







I would call another doc if I were you. That's just my opinon though. This doc seems very lax about this and I don't know if that's a good thing. I'd call a doc unrelated to this one and not mention any names either.

I am not sure if you mentioned this before or not, but was this the same doc that prescribed the antibiotics in the first place? I think it is, but just checking.


YES this is the same doc that prescribed the abx in the first place!! (I was glad she decided to consult on this instead of treating him though. This was one thing I was happy about, I think she handled that correctly)

you're right - its not a bad idea to get another opinion from another practice. I am even thinking of switching if I find someone I like more (but the same problem may happen - there may be one person from the practice I like more, and you can't interview EVERYONE from the practice you know?) - I do like the way the 2nd dr handled his case so far since she took over from the time he began the antibiotics. However, I have met 3 other drs from that practice in the past, and they have all done questionable things (and I am likely to get one of them on call when I have an emergency) I'm just a little worried other practices may be similar, and all prescribe unnecessary antibiotics also, if they see signs of an ear infection. Im trying to think of how I can word my questions to find out whether THEY would have in fact prescribed something for him too, you know? How can I really find out without telling them what happened first. I also want to know wHICH antibiotic they would have selected if they thought it should be started right away. (I havent even discussed this with the 1st doc, but I have no idea why she felt it was necessary to choose augmentin - Im angry over that - everything I read online says its to be used as a last resort)

Quote:

Flagyl put me in the ER after three doses.


what happened to you?? I took one round of flagyl and although it was nasty stuff (I cant swallow pills so chew up everything lol), it fixed my diarrhea and got me back to normal again. I had no side effects from it that I remember. I don't know what I would have done had they not found it so fast (that I had C Diff) I am very grateful they caught it and I "only" had to have the watery diarrhea for one or two days (although I had other symptoms of the disease for about a week or less)


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## newmum35 (Aug 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momtoalexsarah* 
I wonder if you dr is thinking that your son is strong enough to beat this on his own

No, Im thinking that the specialist felt he didn't actually have the disease (even though he tested positive) --- I printed out a TON of stuff about C Diff from every site I could find ... on one of them, it said a positive culture for C Diff doesnt necessarily mean you actually have C Diff disease. I think if she felt he actually had the disease, she would not have tried to let him beat it on his own.

Quote:

- with my DD she had just had major facial reconstruction surgury and was in hospital for septic infection when they found it - she had gone from 26.5lb to 22.5 in a week and is already very small for a nearly 3yo. That may be why they treated her aggressivly - but it worked andher tests are clean now. I just don't understand why they would let it go

Oh, surgery is definitely a risk factor for this as well - in your case I understand how they would diagnose. I think the diagnosis depends on more than just the stool culture being positive. You have to have additional symptoms, too. I only recently learned this.


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## momtoalexsarah (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmum35* 
No, Im thinking that the specialist felt he didn't actually have the disease (even though he tested positive) --- I printed out a TON of stuff about C Diff from every site I could find ... on one of them, it said a positive culture for C Diff doesnt necessarily mean you actually have C Diff disease. I think if she felt he actually had the disease, she would not have tried to let him beat it on his own.

Oh, surgery is definitely a risk factor for this as well - in your case I understand how they would diagnose. I think the diagnosis depends on more than just the stool culture being positive. You have to have additional symptoms, too. I only recently learned this.

What worries me, and concerns me as a fellow parent is that he will now be a carrier, and may pass it on to other children/adults that are at greater risk.
I think that one of the reasons C-diff is becoming such an issue now is because there are many more carriers out there, for the average healthy person a case of antbiotic colitis may not be a problem but for a person that must take antibiotics frequently, or long term then picking up community aquired c-diff is a huge issue.
Megan's was community aquired, not from the hospital as she was only in one day untill she developed symptoms (on the antibiotics 2 days - she has to go on prior to surgury).
I think that everyone has a role in preventing c-diff, if you chose not to treat him then PLEASE get a stool culture done after he gets better to see that he is not shedding spores that can cause this in others.


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## newmum35 (Aug 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momtoalexsarah* 
What worries me, and concerns me as a fellow parent is that he will now be a carrier, and may pass it on to other children/adults that are at greater risk.
I think that one of the reasons C-diff is becoming such an issue now is because there are many more carriers out there, for the average healthy person a case of antbiotic colitis may not be a problem but for a person that must take antibiotics frequently, or long term then picking up community aquired c-diff is a huge issue.
Megan's was community aquired, not from the hospital as she was only in one day untill she developed symptoms (on the antibiotics 2 days - she has to go on prior to surgury).
I think that everyone has a role in preventing c-diff, if you chose not to treat him then PLEASE get a stool culture done after he gets better to see that he is not shedding spores that can cause this in others.

I think you're wrong here. Think about what you are saying... you are saying if anyone out there tests positive for c diff in a stool culture then they should be treated with flagyl (or vancomycin) to protect others ---- 50% of all kids under 2 years old will test positive. Do you want all these kids to be put on antibiotics? In response to the flagyl or vanco, the C. Diff bacteria start to produce spores (to protect themselves) the bacteria die, but the spores arent affected by the antibiotic. they live up to 2years and can become active again at anytime if anyone ingests one. using the antibiotic on all these people is going to release a huge # of spores into the environment and potentially harm a great # of people. much greater than not using the antibiotics would have.

In addition to that, the c diff is starting to show some kind of resistance to vanco (which is why flagyl is used first and vanco as a last resort) - I JUST learned that and I question one of the previous posters desire to use vanco on her child without trying flagyl first. One of the pages I read explained it very well (I will find that site if anyone is interested) and using vanco is NOT the best option - even for little kids. I was looking into which one to use, in the event I would have to use it on my toddler. It appears flagyl is the best choice after all (although I havent done a great amount of research on this and could be wrong yet) - fortunately my son only had ONE diarrhea today - FINALLY after 5 days since the last dose of antibiotic (we're on day 8 of diarrhea!!) it seems to have slowed down (4-9 times a day in previous 7 days!!) ---- he is getting better!!! He testd ++ for c diff, but does not have the disease. (thank god!!!)

While I actually would be CURIOUS whether or not he STILL tests positive after his bowel movements get back to "normal" (whenever that will be?!?) I doubt my ped would EVER consent to another stool culture when he doenst need one.

While I still have a lot to learn about c. Diff, I think you're wrong here, and that it would end up being WORSE for other people if everyone who tested pos. for c. diff (asympomatic carriers) were treated. Imagine what bad shape we're going to be in when flagyl stops being effective due to antibiotic resistance. careful use of antibiotics may help prevent this from happening.


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## momtoalexsarah (May 21, 2005)

Proper and complete treatment of c-diff gets rid of both bacteria and spores.
Megans final stool culture, had to test negative to toxin, bacteria and spores. We had to have this tripple negative test for her to be allowed back into her special needs preschool program.
I hate antibiotics - but in some cases they are needed, my dd has an genetic immune deficency. She is a very very healthy kid, her doctors are amazed but she still can't fight the big infections on her own even with the help of the best homeopathic practices. We need the arsenal of antibiotics to be there, after she contracted the c-diff it has reduced severly the classes of ones that we can use, add that to the issues of resistance that we have already had to deal with, again community aquired bacteria.
C-diff is a bad bug and unfortunatly it is out there too much, as are far to many antibiotic resistant bacteria out there. Most people take little regard to this fact, like sending sick kids to school, or kids on Abx to school, they still spread the bugs and unfortuatly they don't always consider the wider implications.


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## newmum35 (Aug 16, 2007)

Oh for some reason I had thought the spores were untouchable, even with the flagyl treatment. ?

Update:

yesterday, after 7 days of profuse diarrhea (ranging from 4 to 9 times per day) he only had ONE! This was 5 days since stopping the antibiotic.

None today yet either, and although its still diarrhea, I think its starting to change. His appetite has returned yesterday too! We're doing good! I'm stopping the probiotic once again because after I took just the florastor yesterday my stomach hurt once again but it wasnt as great as some days ago when I took both sustenex and florastor.

I did take a bottle (at less the recommended dose, over a month or two) after I finished the course of flagyl 1 1/2 years ago and had no problems that I recall. Now Im starting to think the recommended dose (2 a day) could just be too high for me? or maybe its just cooincidence. Anyway, we're doing GOOD and his rash is now gone after 3 days (friday-sunday) so I can't even bring him in today to be seen for it! I may never know just what it was!

I talked to a RN who felt he did NOT have serum sickness but rather, a common "amoxicillin rash" which does NOT indicate allergy, but a "sensitivity"

Now I'm really confused. I'm still reading about it online. IT doesnt' mention fever however, and the 'serum sickness' does, and the notes I took fit more with the serum sickness. She told me he would be sicker, and it would be itchy if it was a true allergy. It didnt SEEM to itch him, I did see him rub his face/neck a few times (but wasnt sure it was because he was tired or itchy) I thought he just had a mild case of it since it could vary widely. Now I'm not sure what the rash was but I still feel it has to be related to the augmentin amoxicililn antibiotic.


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## momtoalexsarah (May 21, 2005)

the rash could be a viral rash as well, whatever caused the ear "infection" may well have been viral and they cause rashes, sometime days after the fevers break. My kids have had a number of "common viral rashes" as our doctor calls them.


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## lily7 (Aug 24, 2006)

I posted in your previous thread about what a number augmentin did on me and the rash was part of it, but I had it for couple of weeks, so the rash may be just it. I am glad the diarrhea is gone.


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## newmum35 (Aug 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lily7* 
I posted in your previous thread about what a number augmentin did on me and the rash was part of it, but I had it for couple of weeks, so the rash may be just it. I am glad the diarrhea is gone.

When you say you had it for a couple of weeks, are you referring to the diarrhea, or the rash? (additionally, if you had the rash, was it itchy, and how long did it last?)

The rash lasted him 3 days (and was worst on the 2nd day) Friday through Sunday. By Monday (when I was planning on having a dr look at it) it was just about gone, so unfortunately I cannot really get a good opinion about it since noone has seen it in person. I talked to his 2 peds over the phone about it, but they felt it did not have to do with the antibiotic. I disagree and hope to talk with them more on our upcoming appt (friday) - I did take a photo of it, but it was on the 3rd day when it was going away, and so does not show up well in the photo. I wish I had taken one on the 2nd day.

I have googled this "amoxicillin rash" and there are a LOT of people out there who ALL experiencing the same thing! It is apparently a side effect from taking the antibiotic. It does not mention about the fever however, and for that reason, I'm still suspecting he might have had the serum sickness, since the fever always precedes the rash there and he DID have the fever and felt AWFUL the day before the rash began.

I do think the rash HAD something to do with the antibiotic, I'm just not sure if it was a mere side effect or was an actual allergy. If it represented an actual allergy then any future exposures to amoxicillin will take just 1-3 days to start showing allergic symptoms (not 7-14 days as with 1st exposure, serum sickness) and be MUCH more severe.

I found a blog online (it is not mine) with photos of a child that look like the same rash.

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/lauramb/59912/

I'm still reading through the 45 comments, and there is yet another blog I found where other people have had similar experiences after using amoxicillin

http://www.downsyn.com/phpbb2/viewto...70875e9b0d6112

Here is a good site that desribes about distinguishing "non-allergic adverse reactions" from "true allergic reactions"

http://www.uptodate.com/patients/con...=al_asthm/4604

It mentions it can be very difficult to distinguish between the two. Under "allergic reactions" it mentions hives (raised, intensely itchy spots that come and go over hours) - now my son's red spots WERE raised (I could feel them with my fingertips) but only slightly, above the skin.They weren't raised a great deal, AND they definitely weren't intensely itchy, in fact I'm not real sure they itched him at all. I saw what I thought was an itch, on his belly, when I had his onsie up, when he was on the potty. Otherwise, he was covered with clothes all the times, so really couldn't itch even if he wanted to. I did see him rubbing his face and neck often one day (but I'm not sure which day that was now) but I thought that was cause he was tired and not feeling well but in retrospect, Im wondering if they might have been itchy after all. But for all I could tell, he played normally and they didn't seem to bother him.
Another thing is under "allergic reactions" it mentions the hives can come and go over hours (whereas the "rash" that does NOT indicate a true allergic reaction does not change by the hour) - his rash DID seem to come and go by the hour. It was worst when he woke from his nap, and seemed to disappear within an hour (although if I looked closely I believe it was still there- just barely noticeable). It came out again and appeared more prominent during his evening bath.

It does mention allergy testing, and maybe in a few years (hopefully he won't need ANY antibiotics before then) I can find out whether in fact he does have a true allergy or not by a skin test? I don't want to be pricking his skin as a baby, as it can be uncomfortable, so I feel maybe waiting until age 3 or 4 when he can understand was is happening would be preferable to any testing in the near immediate future. In the meantime, I hope to avoid ALL antibiotics, and I'm not sure WHAT I will do if they tell me he HAS to have one for some reason!

Our appt is friday, I'm going to bring my photos, print out what I learned about "amoxicillin rash" vs "serum sickness" and see if they think he could possibily have had one of them (but from my description over the phone, they said they felt it did NOT have to do with the antibiotic!) - I may also probably seek a 2nd opinion from another practice too because I just can't imagine this having nothing at all to do with the antibiotic, being that he reacted so severely with watery diarrhea and loss of appetite too.

His appetite returned several days ago, and his stools are now only once a day (in fact he even skipped a day!) although they are still very loose, they are no longer like water, and he is happily playing. I'm no longer worried about him.

On another note, my own stomach pains have gone away, I think I mentioned I wasn't sure if I might have picked up C Diff too, or if it was from probiotics I started taking. Well now my Husband (who takes NO supplements) also has stomach pains for several days!! So now I know, it wasn't caused from the probiotics. Perhaps we had a stomach virus (or food sickness caused by something we ate?) and could be unrelated to my son's diarrhea. It is really a mystery because usually when we get sick, it is merely a cold or cough. The only time I felt that way was when I had c diff. They did tell me that the stool culture on my son dated 2-28 (2nd culture) came back normal for everything. I think this means the C. Diff was not "positive" this time around. I was surprisd to hear that. I will double check on friday if that's what she meant.


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## lily7 (Aug 24, 2006)

I actually did not have the diarrhea the first time around, I was vomiting everything, even water for two days, was it antibiotics or side effect of kidney infection I do not know, it was long time ago and I think they finally switched me to a different antibiotic and the vomiting stopped. But the rash was there for couple of weeks and it was hives for me, they would come and go. It would usually show up after eating anything, the only safe food then for me was bananas. Later I figured out this was actually my second reaction to penicilin based antibiotics, I had Doxycilin couple of months ago and did not have severe reaction, but i had some hives after the course. It seems like you did a lot of research on the different reactions. I did not. For me bottom line is no penicilin based antibiotics. My dentist made a mistake once and I got amoxicilin, I guess I was not paying attention and took it, I had bloody diarrhea and immidiately stopped them. Then after I had my son I had to have a root canal and they felt that Keflex was the only OK antibiotic for nursing, I did not have severe reaction but I think this one round destroyed my gut, and now I am fighting eczema for over a year.


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## Monty Wu (Nov 19, 2013)

i've read in other forums that florastor can cause diarrhea in some people too. i'm going through the same problem. diarrhea after a course of cipro. had stool sample take 5 days ago for c diff. lab is so slow. was in so much pain started flagyl. feel better. but still not sure if it was caused by c diff. maybe florastor, or acidophillus. etc... i started taking lots of probiotics after cipro. so confusing, and medicine don't have the definitive answer either. reading up on c diff labs, and most labs only do the EIA toxin a and b. which is only 70%>90% sensitive. so even if my result is negative, it can still be a false negative. i've had chronic colitis issue in past, this may throw it into a spiral again.. so depressed and anxious..


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