# Hatred of photo taking



## Porcelain Interior (Feb 8, 2008)

What do you do when one member of your family will NOT allow themselves to be photographed? Like ever?

I'm so sad over this and it's been going on now for 2+ years. It started out gradually with refusing a full smile, to now a full on glare or a hand in front of the face.

Our tradition of family photographs for Christmas cards is over. Our last years was ruined, but I sent it out anyway because I paid for them. It was 3 happy smiling people with one child giving death ray eyes at the camera.

Her school picture this year appears to be that of a forlorn and very angry child. Last year's was a very very tiny smile. I can't hang them on the wall or give them out. She looks miserable, and I don't want the whole "What's wrong with her?!" questions and then when I say "She hates having her picture taken" they say "No child of mine would have gotten away with that crap!" (Oookay you have figured out the cure?)

Yesterday the kids were opening presents. One child full on smiles and cooperation, the other child gave me the "talk to the hand" motion thing and she holds her head down so her hair is in her face.

I have over 2 years of scrapbooks/albums on hold because well we have really no pictures of the oldest child. Aside from the angry eyes when we do happen to capture her by mere chance, and the pictures obscured by her hand or hair 99.999% of them.

I've had it. I agree that it's her right to object, or not be photographed. I don't even try anymore, or I'll take a picture of whatever she's willing to give me, the side of her face with her hair totally covering her face, or her back.

I'm just really frankly sick of it.

I went through an awkward stage where I didn't enjoy photos, but I never ran from cameras, or totally opted out of family photos.

Relatives are asking questions and I keep saying she hates having her picture taken.








I guess the worst part is the heartbreak over not being able to preserve memories because they are tainted by her ruining pictures or refusing to be in them.

How do I record family life and explain no dd #1?

It's really stressing me out.

(And we've reasoned and asked and talked. She just flat out doesn't want her picture taken. She's Aspergers-ish, though undiagnosed so I don't know if that plays into it.)

And she's beautiful. Dark dark hair, very white skin and striking blue/green eyes. I haven't seen her smile or seen her whole face since she got a hair cut and was dipped into the hairwashing tub, and I saw her pretty little face for once.


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

Have you offered to give her veto over any photos after the fact? Maybe she is worried she won't like the photos & they'll end up in the family albums. Ask if you can take the photos & then she can go through them with you before any one else gets to see them & delete any she truly doesn't like.


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## Barefoot~Baker (Dec 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifeguard* 
Have you offered to give her veto over any photos after the fact? Maybe she is worried she won't like the photos & they'll end up in the family albums. Ask if you can take the photos & then she can go through them with you before any one else gets to see them & delete any she truly doesn't like.

This sounds like a great idea.

What about a reward?


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

As someone who has never liked to be photographed, I'd say just respect her wishes and drop it. You don't need to offer excuses to other people.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

i am like your dd in a different sorta way.

i dont believe in pictures. more people take pictures of my dd than i do.

for me my thougths are my best scrap book. the whole feeling around it - the sights, smell, sound.

i would really just talk to your dd heart to heart. just let her know you want just a few pictures. what seh is doing in the picture is really not your concern. i understand where seh is coming from. i have taken professional photographs maybe twice in dd's 7 years. they are soo 'happy' and false according to me. my fav pictures are impromptu ones that capture their personality.

my friend's 7 year old also HATES his picture taken. but his mom and i have spoken to him and asked him to just be in a picture just once or twice. like when he lost all his front tooth, he did allow one picture. mostly they are direct serious looks. but taht's waht makes the photograph precious to me coz it shows his personality.

i dont need photographs of my dd. they all live in my heart. and seriously the only person who is intereted in the photographs are just me. others dont really care that much.

thought you might enjoy hearing from another camera shy person.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I might bribe for a picture. It's all for you, it's not like it'll matter if she doesn't develop any intrinsic desire to have herself photographed, you know? Does she let you wash her hair?

And how old is she?


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## Porcelain Interior (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifeguard* 
Have you offered to give her veto over any photos after the fact? Maybe she is worried she won't like the photos & they'll end up in the family albums. Ask if you can take the photos & then she can go through them with you before any one else gets to see them & delete any she truly doesn't like.


Yes. It isn't about her thinking she looks bad in photos, it's about control and her not wanting her photo taken period. She ducks and covers her face every single time. In previous years we've used real live animal props (her cat for instance lol) in the family photo, or we've allowed her to be in profile so she doesn't really have to smile. Now it's no photo period.

She takes my camera and deletes ANY and ALL pictures of herself.

Rewards and bribing have never worked with her.









She's 14 btw, and this photo-aversion thing started gradually when she was in the 6th grade.

She's very stubborn. If she doesn't want to do something it's not happening.

She hates any attention being drawn to herself, she's an introvert and it's getting more pronounced the older she gets.

I guess I allowed it at first out of respect, I certainly don't enjoy people taking my picture when I'd rather not be in one.

Seems I've created a monster, as she doesn't feel obligated to ever be photographed.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom* 
As someone who has never liked to be photographed, I'd say just respect her wishes and drop it. You don't need to offer excuses to other people.

Absolutely. I hate having my picture taken. I think that this needs to be respected. I DEEPLY believe that this needs to be respected.


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## Porcelain Interior (Feb 8, 2008)

I got a lot of feedback right after I posted!









She's 14. She's never been bribable. We've offered HUGE incentives before and it's a "no."

So for the "I hate pictures, leave her alone" voters- what about family albums years down the road when it appears little sister was loved and doted on more?

What if she regrets it, or feels pain when she grows up when she sees no her in the family pictures?

I just (as a highly sensitive and sentimental person from an abusive and neglectful background who is very very worried about doing her children right) cannot make scrapbooks and make an album that says "Christmas 2009" and have captions "DD #2 decorating the tree. DD #2 decorating cookies. DD #2 opening presents." No DD #1. Or "DD #1's hand as she opens presents. DD #1's death ray glare on a supposedly happy occasion."

How do I enclose pictures of my kids in cards for my parents when one child looks horrible in her picture? I actually feel that it's borderline abusive to let anyone see her school picture this year. She looks like she's about to cry. When I've only sent one child's picture they all say "Why didn't you get retakes?"

I don't know what to do. I'm just sick of it.

I totally get not wanting your picture taken, but I can't get her to even do a couple of token photos.

The ones I have are ruined by her sullen angry glare, or her turning her back on the photo.

Is it a phase?


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## baltic_ballet (May 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifeguard* 
Have you offered to give her veto over any photos after the fact? Maybe she is worried she won't like the photos & they'll end up in the family albums. Ask if you can take the photos & then she can go through them with you before any one else gets to see them & delete any she truly doesn't like.

That's a great idea







if that didn't work I would do what EFmom said and let it go and not force her to be in photos against her wishes.

I don't think you should use bribes on kids but that's just me....


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Ah, she's 14. I was thinking she was 3 or 4. Sorry.

My mom is also like this. She is a PITA to get to pose for pictures. I finally blew up at her and pointed out one day that it wasn't all about her and that I wanted the pictures for myself because she wasn't going to live forever and I wanted to be able to show my grandkids what she looked like and have pictures for myself to remember her. She's in her 60s, though, so able to be slightly less selfish.

BUT! I do think it's selfish. I hope none of the pps are offended, but pictures are really not for the photographed, unless you're getting portraits at Sears. It's for the loved ones who want to have a picture of you. So maybe you could point that out to her.


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## finnegansmom (Jul 15, 2007)

My husband is the same way, it's so annoying to me. We had "family pics" taken yesterday at the holiday get together. Me and my 2 boys. My husband was playing Wii and wouldn't participate, he hates pictures. It sucks to be honest, I have literally 3 or 4 pictures of him with the boys.... it makes me sad.

I sympathize with your OP, I wish I could offer some advice...


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## limette (Feb 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
Ah, she's 14. I was thinking she was 3 or 4. Sorry.

My mom is also like this. She is a PITA to get to pose for pictures. I finally blew up at her and pointed out one day that it wasn't all about her and that I wanted the pictures for myself because she wasn't going to live forever and I wanted to be able to show my grandkids what she looked like and have pictures for myself to remember her. She's in her 60s, though, so able to be slightly less selfish.

BUT! I do think it's selfish. I hope none of the pps are offended, but pictures are really not for the photographed, unless you're getting portraits at Sears. It's for the loved ones who want to have a picture of you. So maybe you could point that out to her.

As someone who hates being photographed, this doesn't fly for me. It's not going to make me any less uncomfortable getting my photo taken. Unless you are going to pay to have a professional take good candid shots of me then no. Photos of me taken by regular people or those horrible posed portrait shots look nothing like the way I look in real life so it would be useless as a reminder photo anyway.

I would just drop it, if she's as stubborn as I am, you'll just make the issue worse by pressing it.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Saying this as one formerly abused child to another--stop projecting your fears onto her.

I think forcing children to smile and be happy for the family photograph is just as abusive as sending an imperfect one out. Who are you to tell her that she looks "awful" just because she ducked or put her hand up? Why not just be able to accept her as is. Surely your family knows this quirk of hers (I assume she does this for all photos, not just yours). So what's the big deal? They know you love her. You don't need the perfect family photograph for her to feel loved.

If she feels slighted now, seeing better photographs will NOT make it better in the future. And if she feels whole and loved by you and her family, then even the worst photograph cannot take it away.

It really sounds like the person with the problem is you. And I don't say this to be mean. You have no idea how many times I have had to bite my tongue to bleeding and literally sit on my hands to keep from pestering my children to death for a nice image so that I can prove to the world that my family is great, that they will remember it as great, so no one can accuse me of having it be less than great--even though I know that it's all a lie (that a photo is evidence for or against, or that it will build or destroy memories), and I know how hollow picture perfect images ring for me when I look at the family portraits of my childhood (I have them, but feel ill at the thought of displaying them)...I still want that.

And that is MY problem, not my child's. I finally was able to let go of controlling the school pictures this year.

You cannot answer the what ifs that she might feel in the future because you have absolutely no control over it. That doesn't have anything to do with pictures. And other people are going to think what they think no matter what. Yeah, it sucks that you always wanted to have nice portraits for holiday cards or to put into scrapbooks. I get that, really, I do. I do. But that is your need to fill your desire. It's okay to be mad and sad about it. But eventually you've got to just deal with reality too. Unless you're going to bind her hands and aquanet her hair in place, you can't make your DD do anything. So perhaps you can negotiate with her for OTHER things you can put into the scrapbook (her art? her writing?). And maybe you can try to cultivate a sense of humor about the pictures (I see no harm in getting one done per year, or so, as long as you don't have the expectation that it'll change. Maybe it will and you can have a wonderful suprise. Who knows.)

But the picture is not the memories. It won't replace parenting and love. Your DD may regret it or not, but you can't rewind time, and it's really her decision. If she decides to have her picture taken nicely in the future, then you'll be able to have those pictures. But I don't think you can force someone to have a nice picture if they don't want to. It's okay to grieve that if it's really important to you, that's probably just part of the process of coming to terms with things.

But you can't live your life wondering about someone else's uncontrollable what ifs. Even if they're your kid.


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## Porcelain Interior (Feb 8, 2008)

A lot of what you've said is not the reality of my situation. I'm trying to do what is best for my daughter. I've got it now, no more pictures. I'm ok with that, it's still sad to me though.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
Saying this as one formerly abused child to another--stop projecting your fears onto her. *I'm saying I don't want her to feel like I loved her less when in 10 years she goes through pictures and sees relatively none of herself.*

I think forcing children to smile and be happy for the family photograph is just as abusive as sending an imperfect one out. *I've NEVER once asked her to force a smile or happiness in a photo, most of her childhood pictures are candid photos, very nice ones. She now actually glares at the camera- that's not acceptable for photos you plan on sending to people. So I have stopped trying.*Who are you to tell her that she looks "awful" just because she ducked or put her hand up? *Where did I say I told her she looked "awful"? I've NEVER in the history of my daughters life told her she looked awful. I've told her that I don't want a picture of her hand. And I've said "You don't have to smile. I'm not trying to take a picture of YOU, but of the room full of people so just ignore me. You don't have to look into the camera. You don't have to pose. You don't have to smile. You don't....blah blah blah. I'm telling you people on this message board that photos with a blurry hand in them over the face of the subject look awful. Her glaring in a family Christmas picture (not just not smiling, but actual glaring) is awful. It isn't that she looks awful, it's just an awful situation. Her school pictures were awful, she doesn't like them either. Who wants a picture of a child about to cry? And I NEVER told her they were awful, I just said "Hey, you look upset in your school picture what happened?" And she told me the photographer was a jerk. End of story. I didn't bemoan the fact that imo the pictures were ruined, and I didn't force her to do retakes......*Why not just be able to accept her as is. Surely your family knows this quirk of hers (I assume she does this for all photos, not just yours). So what's the big deal? *Mostly I don't want her to grow up and feel that she wasn't as loved as little sister because she has no evidence of her growing up years.* They know you love her. You don't need the perfect family photograph for her to feel loved. *I'm not interested in the perfect family picture- I'm not that person. There's no perfect here. I don't lick my kids hair and faces before we get out of the car to enter a store like my mom did lol. We've actually never had a family portrait taken. The family Christmas picture I spoke of was always a goofy picture (we've done funny things through the years) taken candidly by us with a timer.) My mom thinks it's hilarious and great that DD is asserting herself. I do accept her. I am trying to come to grips with this. I'm actually not photograph obsessed. I'm a horrible procrastinating scrapbooker, and I don't hover and document every micro event in my children's lives. I actually don't really even like taking pictures, but do on occasion so we can look back later on and see how the kids looked at different ages.*

If she feels slighted now, seeing better photographs will NOT make it better in the future. And if she feels whole and loved by you and her family, then even the worst photograph cannot take it away. *I don't think she feels slighted right now. Right now she's just not interested in pictures. I get that. I do, it's just like it's finally dawned on me really and I'm grieving. I get a lot of flack about it, and it's upsetting to me because I love her.*

It really sounds like the person with the problem is you. *I don't think I phrased it as "her problem", I was mostly curious if it's common or if I was alone in having a kid that didn't want to be photographed.)*And I don't say this to be mean. *I hear you, it's ok I know it's not mean.*You have no idea how many times I have had to bite my tongue to bleeding and literally sit on my hands to keep from pestering my children to death for a nice image so that I can prove to the world that my family is great, *I've never tried to prove that. It's not about other people, it's about my kid turning from a completely happy to be photographed kid (not forced smiles, just reg old candid stuff) to a child that will not allow me to preserve her image.*that they will remember it as great, so no one can accuse me of having it be less than great--even though I know that it's all a lie (that a photo is evidence for or against, or that it will build or destroy memories), and I know how hollow picture perfect images ring for me when I look at the family portraits of my childhood (I have them, but feel ill at the thought of displaying them)...I still want that. *Well exactly, I'd rather not take her picture at all if she looks like she's going to commit homicide, or cry. I don't want to embarrass her, or harrass her, or disrespect her.*

And that is MY problem, not my child's. I finally was able to let go of controlling the school pictures this year. *I'm ok with letting go of "control", but the thing is do I just not buy a picture package knowing I'm going to get a pissed off looking kid? Or does that say, "I don't love you as much because you won't smile in your picture so I'm not going to buy them? Seriously I don't want her to be hurt.*

You cannot answer the what ifs that she might feel in the future because you have absolutely no control over it. That doesn't have anything to do with pictures. And other people are going to think what they think no matter what. Yeah, it sucks that you always wanted to have nice portraits for holiday cards or to put into scrapbooks. I get that, really, I do. I do. But that is your need to fill your desire. It's okay to be mad and sad about it. But eventually you've got to just deal with reality too. Unless you're going to bind her hands and aquanet her hair in place, you can't make your DD do anything. *I never posted about making her do it. I was posting about being sad about the fact that it's not possible.*So perhaps you can negotiate with her for OTHER things you can put into the scrapbook (her art? her writing?). And maybe you can try to cultivate a sense of humor about the pictures (I see no harm in getting one done per year, or so, as long as you don't have the expectation that it'll change. Maybe it will and you can have a wonderful suprise. Who knows.) *We do have a sense of humor. When she brought home her school pictures and her dad saw them and gasped and said "Oh my gosh!" She put her hand over her mouth because she was giggling.*

But the picture is not the memories. It won't replace parenting and love. Your DD may regret it or not, but you can't rewind time, and it's really her decision. If she decides to have her picture taken nicely in the future, then you'll be able to have those pictures. But I don't think you can force someone to have a nice picture if they don't want to. It's okay to grieve that if it's really important to you, that's probably just part of the process of coming to terms with things.

But you can't live your life wondering about someone else's uncontrollable what ifs. Even if they're your kid.

Anyway....this has sort of spun out of control, and we've looked at all the facets of photo hatred vs controlling mommy who wants to force cheesiness to prove to the world that she's a good mommy......

I was just sad about pictures. That's all really.

I'm going to let it go and not even ask her anymore.


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Porcelain Interior* 
I got a lot of feedback right after I posted!









She's 14. She's never been bribable. We've offered HUGE incentives before and it's a "no."

So for the "I hate pictures, leave her alone" voters- what about family albums years down the road when it appears little sister was loved and doted on more?

Ask her what she would like you to save. A poem, short story, art work, song, science project, etc...that she created might be a better way to represent her.

What if she regrets it, or feels pain when she grows up when she sees no her in the family pictures?

She might not. I refused to sit for a lot of family photos, and I have no regret. I was missing from the photo by MY choice, I'm quite fine with that. If you coerce her into the photos, there's a chance that when she looks at the photos she'll remember the resentment, not thank you for forcing her. She's 14, she'll remember why she wasn't in the photos.

I just (as a highly sensitive and sentimental person from an abusive and neglectful background who is very very worried about doing her children right) cannot make scrapbooks and make an album that says "Christmas 2009" and have captions "DD #2 decorating the tree. DD #2 decorating cookies. DD #2 opening presents." No DD #1. Or "DD #1's hand as she opens presents. DD #1's death ray glare on a supposedly happy occasion."

Are these candid photos where you inobtussively take photos of the kids doing things, or are you saying "now smile for the camera!" or "stop just like that so I can get a photo!"? If you happen to be getting the photos the second way you might want to try the first. The interruptions for documentation can feel very intrusive and interrupt the flow of the fun, and for some people it feels like the photographer is trying to control their life.

How do I enclose pictures of my kids in cards for my parents when one child looks horrible in her picture? I actually feel that it's borderline abusive to let anyone see her school picture this year. She looks like she's about to cry. When I've only sent one child's picture they all say "Why didn't you get retakes?"

It sounds like a lot of those photos are posed photos. Those can be really really stressful to someone who isn't comfortable getting photographed. What about doing collages instead? You could have photos of each of the cooperative children, and then ask your daughter to choose a piece of her artwork to represent her, or if there happens to be a candid photo she likes (the best photos are candids), or even a photo of her hand or something...whatever she's comfortable with as a representation of her.

Or would she be willing to make a self portrait on a popsicle stick to hold in front of her face in photos? I reallise it's not traditional, but she would still be represented in the photos, and since she would have control over her image it may help her feel comfortable. Or maybe she could have a signature hat that hid her face? Does she like books? She could be "reading" a book in some photos. If the photos are light hearted it could work. If you wanted to ballance it out, everybody else could choose costumes to fit their personality or something.

I don't know what to do. I'm just sick of it.

Be openminded, and creative.

I totally get not wanting your picture taken, but I can't get her to even do a couple of token photos.

The ones I have are ruined by her sullen angry glare, or her turning her back on the photo.

Is it a phase?

Relax, lack of photos is not neglect or abuse.


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## Barefoot~Baker (Dec 25, 2008)

Oh, I thought she was younger too, 6 or 7.

I think you just have to respect her. Yeah, it is really disappointing, but you'll have to find peace with this, and so will the rest of the family.

She's old enough now to know in the future why her sister will be in the spotlight.


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## Porcelain Interior (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rachelsmama* 
Relax, lack of photos is not neglect or abuse.

This is a HUGE bullseye for me. I am crying. Thank you for saying that.

I needed to hear that.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

PI, if other people are giving you flack about it, then they are being mean or oblivious, in which case they have no right or basis for judging you!

To be honest, with school pictures I just order the class picture, and the minimal picture pack (normally a 5x7 plus a few wallets to take up the rest of the sheet). My photoshy child (1 out of 3 hates photos) generally wants the class picture (well, all of them seem more excited about that, but after elementary school there won't be class pictures I assume), otherwise I'd just order the minimum so that when relatives crab at me about not having a picture, they can have one. May not be what they wanted, but oh well...their problem not mine.









Again, I think it's okay to grieve. I just didn't want you to worry about the other stuff, because it really isn't evidence of favortism or less love if there aren't as many pictures--by request! If anything, that proves that you treated your kiddos as individuals, and that you respect and honor your daughter's wishes. To me, that's worth more than being like everyone else or what other people want, KWIM?


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

We believe in mostly CL. That means that 1 person doesn't get to wreck things for everyone else. We do things that are good for everyone.

At the age of 14 she's old enough to suffer through and let her picture be taken. It's no longer a phase and straight disrespect to the rest of the family. She's not a toddler anymore.

I can't imagine letting it go on for that long. It really has nothing to do with her comfort any more. You aren't even asking her to _do_ anything. Being in a candid photo requires no effort on her part. You are simply asking her not do something which actively ruins the photo.

Although, I would personally keep taking pictures of her regardless of what she does. If you don't want to make a big issue about it, then just ignore her selfish behavior. Take the candid photos, put them in scrap books, show them to people just like normal.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Eh, I'm no shutterbug. My two teens don't love to have their pics taken but I only insist on a shot or two every few months for a special event.

Instead of bribing, I would take away a privilege. You, as the parent, have a right to have a good photo or two of your child. If nothing else for safety reasons, YKWIM?

Also, what about future events? Will she refuse to be photographed a s bride? As a new mom? As a graduate from XYZ college? This is one of those things I do think she should be strongly encouraged to "get over".


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

You know it is possible to keep a memory book of DD1 without photos. In this situation, I would start a journal about DD1 so she has something in the future to use to look back. No photos, just mom writing about her and her accomplishments and maybe a few momentos from the time. My friend hates getting his picture taken, always has, but he has a box of little keepsakes to remember the important things that happened.

Just want to say to some of the PP, not wanting your picture taken is not selfish behaviour, nor is it something that needs to be grown out of.

Candid photos are even worse for someone who doesn't like their picture taken, it's violating their personal boundaries without even consulting them first.


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## lindberg99 (Apr 23, 2003)

Oh, I hated having my picture taken in jr high/high school. Because every picture of me turned out crappy! My kids were just getting hysterical looking at pictures of me in my HS yearbooks. And the candids of me in there were even worse than my class picture (especially one memorable one of me after a cross country race uke) so I don't think candids are necessarily a solution.

The only thing I could think of is maybe she would like to get some photos done by a professional photog?? Or there used to be those places in malls that did "glamour" shots where they did your makeup too, I don't know, are those still around? I think that would have appealed to me at that age. Of course, that's not for everyone.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

P Interior, what i got from this thread is that you have a budding unique child on your hand who stands up so strong. she sounds like she is full of confidence and not scared to tell the world who she is. i am v. impressed you dd refuses to give in. shows such strength of character. yeah even i didnt realise she was 14. but knowing that i am in awe of her. but i think oh boy. its some tough years ahead for you.

she probably may never enjoy having her picture taken. however i do agree with Tigerchild that it is your issue.

personally for me her in the family picture with glare is what would make your picture stand out compared to the others.

it wont surprise me if when she moves out she refuses to take the album you lovingly made with all her pictures thru the ages. i have known quite a few who have actually thrown their albums out. yeah. they do exist.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Just want to say to some of the PP, not wanting your picture taken is not selfish behaviour, nor is it something that needs to be grown out of.

Candid photos are even worse for someone who doesn't like their picture taken, it's violating their personal boundaries without even consulting them first.

How is it not selfish to want to prevent someone from having any kind of permanent memories of you? I have a crappy memory. DD is only 3 and there are many times I'm going through pictures on the computer (and we have lots of backups including ones kept at my in-laws just in case our house burns down) and see things I'd completely forgotten about.

Also, just because a picture is "candid" doesn't mean there isn't warning given. At least, not in my family. I means that it's not a formal posed picture. The person is still given a chance to ask about their hair or finish swallowing.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Just want to say to some of the PP, not wanting your picture taken is not selfish behaviour, nor is it something that needs to be grown out of.

Candid photos are even worse for someone who doesn't like their picture taken, it's violating their personal boundaries without even consulting them first.

Agree with you on the candids. I don't believe in chasing folks down or surprising them.

But, I'm a very visual person. I've worked hard as parent and I deserve to have a few pictures a year of my children as they grow. This does not make me a bad parent in any way, shape or form. There are a handful of things that a child should just buck up and do for a loving parent. Really.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Don't be more concerned about looking like a happy family (on film) than actually being a happy family.

Is she a happy person in general? If so, great. Let the picture thing go. If not, I'd be a lot more concerned about that. I'd work on getting her in counseling, trying new hobbies, spending more one-on-one time with you--whatever it took to make her happy. Not so you could get pictures of her, but so she could be happier.


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *philomom* 

Also, what about future events? Will she refuse to be photographed a s bride? As a new mom? As a graduate from XYZ college? This is one of those things I do think she should be strongly encouraged to "get over".

She's 14. Unless she's getting married at 16 or having a baby at 15 I don't really see how her feelings about being photographed now are that relevant to the future events you mention. When she graduates or gets married or has a baby she will be an adult and probably feel differently about herself. She will have a completely different level of control over the photography process too, which can make a difference. And if she decides not to have those photos taken it will probably not be as big a deal as you may imagine. I don't have grad photos, or wedding photos, and somehow it has never been a problem. On the other hand, I have a friend who had lovely wedding photos done and her relatives have given her a hard time because they aren't their style.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

I had years and years of avoiding photos. I felt so awkward and ugly. I felt humilated when I looked at the pictures (I was neither awkward nor ugly, just uncomfortable and lacking in confidence). I still don't enjoy having my picture taken. It has occurred to me that if, God forbid, something happens to me, my child will have maybe three photos of us together. She will think I was never around and I'm with her every minute of the day. However, having my photo taken brings up every insecurity I have. If this is not the way you think (general you), there is no way to explain it to you. It makes me very sad and I'm working on it.

For a 14 year old, I would try a few things. First, I'd try letting her get interested in photography. Maybe if she can have some input in setting up the shot, she might be more inclined to participate. She has all year to work on taking photos. Maybe by next holiday season, she'll feel more comfortable.

Second, I'd just lay off for a year and see what happens. It's one year. As others have said, you can still scrapbook and journal about her so she has some meaningful memories of the year to look backon.

Third, start looking for more creative and editorial photos. She may never agree to be in candids, but if you can get a few good family photos a year that aren't staged and corny, that still look good, you might all be ok with it. I've gotten some very creative holiday photos this year - especially the ones with more than one kid. I've seen them where one child is kind of running away while the others grin at the camera, another with one child sitting on a chair and doing something else (reading? writing in a journal? I can't remember). They look so great because you can see the kids personalities represented and they look semi-candid and not stiff.

At 14, I so very much hated having someone take my photo. I felt corny and self conscious and ugly and weird. I didn't WANT to make a big attention-hogging deal out of it but people (esp one aunt) just wouldn't get off my case about it. Let it go for a year. See what happens. Tell her you're not going to pressure her but if she can't be in the photos, would she be willing to take the pictures or help you think of ideas for photos so at least part of her is still "in" the photo. That would have made a good compromise for me, I think.


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## Porcelain Interior (Feb 8, 2008)

Wow so many opinions, see this is why I've been so confused about how to proceed.

She hasn't always hated photos, only since age 12, she just became really uncomfortable with it. She's the sweetest kid, shy and well just she's my heart. I had her when I was 17, and she's an honor student. She's her own person and she's struggling right now with some anxiety/depression issues which she's being seen for. So it's not just that she's a stubborn kid not wanting her picture taken, there's so much more to her, and I don't want to make her pull into herself even more.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole* 
I had years and years of avoiding photos. I felt so awkward and ugly. I felt humilated when I looked at the pictures (I was neither awkward nor ugly, just uncomfortable and lacking in confidence). I still don't enjoy having my picture taken. It has occurred to me that if, God forbid, something happens to me, my child will have maybe three photos of us together. She will think I was never around and I'm with her every minute of the day. However, having my photo taken brings up every insecurity I have. If this is not the way you think (general you), there is no way to explain it to you. It makes me very sad and I'm working on it.

For a 14 year old, I would try a few things. First, I'd try letting her get interested in photography. Maybe if she can have some input in setting up the shot, she might be more inclined to participate. She has all year to work on taking photos. Maybe by next holiday season, she'll feel more comfortable.

*We've tried to give her control of the annual Christmas photo, and she got a very very nice camera for her birthday last year. She isn't into taking pictures of humans, and has amassed a photo collecton of stuffed animal montages, and live animal shots. She's also into taking short videos of her little sister doing scripts she writes and acting out various things. Being in the picture just isn't something she's willing to do.*

Second, I'd just lay off for a year and see what happens. It's one year. As others have said, you can still scrapbook and journal about her so she has some meaningful memories of the year to look backon.

Third, start looking for more creative and editorial photos. She may never agree to be in candids, but if you can get a few good family photos a year that aren't staged and corny, that still look good, you might all be ok with it. I've gotten some very creative holiday photos this year - especially the ones with more than one kid. I've seen them where one child is kind of running away while the others grin at the camera, another with one child sitting on a chair and doing something else (reading? writing in a journal? I can't remember). They look so great because you can see the kids personalities represented and they look semi-candid and not stiff.

At 14, I so very much hated having someone take my photo. I felt corny and self conscious and ugly and weird. I didn't WANT to make a big attention-hogging deal out of it but people (esp one aunt) just wouldn't get off my case about it. Let it go for a year. See what happens. Tell her you're not going to pressure her but if she can't be in the photos, would she be willing to take the pictures or help you think of ideas for photos so at least part of her is still "in" the photo. That would have made a good compromise for me, I think.

I haven't stopped taking photos, but I've stopped trying to get her into them. I just take pictures with no pressure and very rarely do I take hers.

At the beach this past summer she had the most beautiful smile on her face and my friend started to take her picture (a friend that didn't know she hated pictures) and her face fell and she turned away from the camera.

My friend said, "Wow she is so beautiful!"

So it's sort of sad that she hides herself, but at this time in her life she's feeling awkward and not liking the attention, I felt similar as a child (to a little less of a degree) and am trying to honor her feelings and help her work through this time of change in her life as she adjusts and gets use to the new world. (She's had a rough time adjusting to junior high.)


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

Have you ever tried taking a family photo where everybody tries to look as angry and unhappy as they possibly can? Not really a solution to anything, but it could be a funner, less stressful way to get an occasional shot to document physical developement.


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## Mommyintraining2 (Dec 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Porcelain Interior* 








I guess the worst part is the heartbreak over not being able to preserve memories because they are tainted by her ruining pictures or refusing to be in them.

How do I record family life and explain no dd #1?

It's really stressing me out.

(And we've reasoned and asked and talked. She just flat out doesn't want her picture taken. She's Aspergers-ish, though undiagnosed so I don't know if that plays into it.)

And she's beautiful. Dark dark hair, very white skin and striking blue/green eyes. I haven't seen her smile or seen her whole face since she got a hair cut and was dipped into the hairwashing tub, and I saw her pretty little face for once.










I haven't read the all the replies, so perhaps someone else has already mentioned it (short on time right now):

I have a DS 5 years, who has almost recovered from autism. However, there are a few little things left over. One of them is just like your DD. We have countless photos of a beautiful smiling family and DS struggling and hiding or running even. I have to tell you that my view that it ruins the photo and memories is completely different. I love that we have such "real" or "natural" photos of DS. This IS who he is and I love him for it. These ARE the memories we have of him and our family. It is who he is. If people ask about it, I just say that's who he is. I don't have to defend him.

Honestly, I think it's because we have accepted and appreciated him for who he is at any given moment that he has made the effort to recover from his autism. And we have had to completely ignore other people's judgements about DS. I know this may sound weird, but we have been following the Sonrise program, which has helped thousands of kids recover from all parts of the spectrum. There are some wonderful ways to help your child work on various things, such as picture taking, if that is important to you. To me, it's not a big deal. But screaming and throwing everything in sight *was* a big deal. So that's what we focused on first. Now: no screaming and no throwing. But it all started with examining our own feelings about his behavior. Once we learned to not be judgemental and love him for whatever reasons he had for his "odd" behavior, then we started to see changes.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions about the Sonrise program. If you want to look into it further, the website is www.autismtreatmentcenter.org and a book on how it got started is "A Miracle to Believe In" by Barry Kauffman.

Hope this helps some! I know it's hard!


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## gillibean (Nov 28, 2006)

I'm not sure if this will help, my DD was younger at the time. There was a period of time when she really didn't want pictures taken of her and she was really upset about picture day at school. I told her that when she was my age she would probably like to have some record of what she looked like when she was younger and that she would quite possibly regret not having any record of what she looked like as a child. It changed it from someone taking her picture (which can feel like a huge violation of personal space) to a simple record-keeping thing (like a driver's license photo). Basically, the pictures weren't for me (or anyone else) they were for her.

I generally enjoy having my picture taken but I have been in some situations where I DID NOT want it taken. I would have been very angry if it had been forced on me.


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

FWIW, my cousin hated having her picture taken for most of our childhood. Every single year for our once a year family reunion she would run and hide, and her parents would have a big to-do about getting her back in the picture, and in many years she wasn't in them at all. She still dislikes it, but she has outgrown the hatred and refusal now at 29. Her dad, my uncle, was very into photography and has some beautiful candid shots, where she didn't know she was the subject. There aren't many, but there are enough to remember. And as an adult now, she doesn't harbor feelings of ill-will for the many, many more pics of her brother. At 14, I would say however, that she is old enough to allow for X number of pics a year- like one at Christmas, one at the beginning of school. For my cousin, it was that annual family reunion pic, a Christmas shot and her back to school pics. Her mother, my aunt, died when my cousin was only 21, and she does appreciate those few family pics now. Good luck mama!


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## Belia (Dec 22, 2007)

My opinion may be very unpopular around here, but I think your daughter is being rude.

She is 14 years old- old enough to understand that there are some things that she should do in spite of the fact that she doesn't want to.

Eat your vegetables, go to the dentist- we do these things to stay healthy.

Hold open a door for other people, say please and thank you, *pose for pictures when it means a lot to your mom*- we do these things to be kind and polite and generous.

I don't think its unreasonable to ask or require her to pose for a limited number of pictures 2-3 times a year (like a PP said- maybe Christmas, birthday, back to school). There's a safety issue too. If she refuses, then I would refuse to do something "optional" for her that she expects / enjoys.

The only mystery part of this question is the fact that you think she may be on the autism spectrum. I'm not sure if that fact should affect your expectations of her.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
How is it not selfish to want to prevent someone from having any kind of permanent memories of you? I have a crappy memory. DD is only 3 and there are many times I'm going through pictures on the computer (and we have lots of backups including ones kept at my in-laws just in case our house burns down) and see things I'd completely forgotten about.

Also, just because a picture is "candid" doesn't mean there isn't warning given. At least, not in my family. I means that it's not a formal posed picture. The person is still given a chance to ask about their hair or finish swallowing.

It's not selfish so long as you don't insist on it. When you make someone sit for a photo just because you want the memory, then you are not trying to come to a consensus, you are putting your wants above their comfort.

As for the candids... Are they allowed to ask that you not take the picture at all?


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

I'm actually surprised that people put so much value on pictures. I understand that they are great to have, but they aren't the only way to preserve memories.


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## Altair (May 1, 2005)

At 14 (or at any age), her "Asperger-ish" personality traits are just who she is. Being respectful of her boundaries is teaching her that she *deserves* to have respect for her own boundaries, which unfortunately can be a problem for women with ASDs as they grow and negotiate adult relationships.

You're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. There are things that are just different about your daughter, but different doesn't mean wrong. Focus your energy on helping those in your family and friend circle accept her for who she is. She sounds like a lovely girl.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *philomom* 
But, I'm a very visual person. I've worked hard as parent and I deserve to have a few pictures a year of my children as they grow. This does not make me a bad parent in any way, shape or form. There are a handful of things that a child should just buck up and do for a loving parent. Really.









Yep, me too. I agree with MusicianDad that there are other ways to make memories, but it's just not the same for me. My mom got a ton of slides converted that my grandpa had taken, dating back to before WWII when he married my grandmother, and I LOVE them. I can seriously spend hours poring over them, noticing the tiniest things, like how my son uses the same gesture my grandmother is using in the picture.

AND, my grandmother's mother, who I am named after, also had the picture-phobia problem. I am so fascinated by this woman who I never knew, and who she was. But I have only ever seen one or two pictures of her, and she has her hand over her mouth in every one. So am I the selfish one because I want to see pictures of her? Or is she the selfish one because she was so absorbed in her own bashful self-consciousness that she couldn't bring herself to be photographed?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
It's not selfish so long as you don't insist on it. When you make someone sit for a photo just because you want the memory, then you are not trying to come to a consensus, you are putting your wants above their comfort.

As for the candids... Are they allowed to ask that you not take the picture at all?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
I'm actually surprised that people put so much value on pictures. I understand that they are great to have, but they aren't the only way to preserve memories.

PI, I am sorry, I hope she grows out of it soon. It really doesn't sound like there's much you can do, aside from express to her how much you want a picture of your beautiful daughter to look at. I wouldn't let her erase pictures off your camera, that's crossing a line, but I don't know what else you can do.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

*sigh*

It is selfish to _force_ someone to have their picture taken when they clearly don't want it just because you want to have the visual memory. If someone who doesn't like pictures hears you out and agrees to have the one picture take, fine. But if they continue to say "no" and insist on taking their picture or punishing them not sitting for a picture then yes, you are being selfish because their comfort clearly doesn't matter as much as your desire for a piece of paper


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Belia* 
My opinion may be very unpopular around here, but I think your daughter is being rude.

She is 14 years old- old enough to understand that there are some things that she should do in spite of the fact that she doesn't want to.

Eat your vegetables, go to the dentist- we do these things to stay healthy.

Hold open a door for other people, say please and thank you, *pose for pictures when it means a lot to your mom*- we do these things to be kind and polite and generous.

I don't think its unreasonable to ask or require her to pose for a limited number of pictures 2-3 times a year (like a PP said- maybe Christmas, birthday, back to school). There's a safety issue too. If she refuses, then I would refuse to do something "optional" for her that she expects / enjoys.

The only mystery part of this question is the fact that you think she may be on the autism spectrum. I'm not sure if that fact should affect your expectations of her.

I agree with the above.

A PP's suggestion of giving her a way to "hide" in the pictures struck me as a fun and possible way to get her in (I had actually pictured your DD holding up a "censored" sign over her face or a black dot or something, but a book would be fun too).

I do generally think she should just suck it up though (unless it is really not medically/mentally possible for her). But if she won't/can't come around if you discuss your wants with her, then a fun way to include her in the picture without her face would work. Maybe get her to peek through her hand? Or do a "cousin IT" kind of thing with her hair.

Tjej


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Belia* 
My opinion may be very unpopular around here, but I think your daughter is being rude.

She is 14 years old- old enough to understand that there are some things that she should do in spite of the fact that she doesn't want to.

Eat your vegetables, go to the dentist- we do these things to stay healthy.

Hold open a door for other people, say please and thank you, *pose for pictures when it means a lot to your mom*- we do these things to be kind and polite and generous.

I don't think its unreasonable to ask or require her to pose for a limited number of pictures 2-3 times a year (like a PP said- maybe Christmas, birthday, back to school).

I agree!!!


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

A violation is a violation.

It might mean a lot for relatives who are visiting and who don't see kids very often to get a hug too, it's a way to be kind and polite even if you're not so inclined.

Yet I am sure people wouldn't suggest doing the old school forcing children to hug people they didn't want to.

Other people don't have the right to your body. They don't have a right to the image of your body either.

If something makes someone feel violated, then you should not do it. No matter how "silly" you might think it is.


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Belia* 
My opinion may be very unpopular around here, but I think your daughter is being rude.

She is 14 years old- old enough to understand that there are some things that she should do in spite of the fact that she doesn't want to.

Eat your vegetables, go to the dentist- we do these things to stay healthy.

Hold open a door for other people, say please and thank you, *pose for pictures when it means a lot to your mom*- we do these things to be kind and polite and generous.

I don't think its unreasonable to ask or require her to pose for a limited number of pictures 2-3 times a year (like a PP said- maybe Christmas, birthday, back to school). There's a safety issue too. If she refuses, then I would refuse to do something "optional" for her that she expects / enjoys.

The only mystery part of this question is the fact that you think she may be on the autism spectrum. I'm not sure if that fact should affect your expectations of her.

I agree. Particularly since she has relatives who live far away and who don't get to see her. This seems to be a control issue, and she is being rude and destroying something for the rest of the extended family. If you're into logical consequences, I would make the logical consequence that she can't participate in the fun things your family does if she won't do the bare minimum to be part of the family. I hate being photographed too, as I always look totally awful, but it doesn't hurt and it takes less than a second and it makes my parents happy to have my photograph. I was very serious about photography in high school and college, and I joked that if I was the one taking the photos, I would never have to be in them!

Her deleting photos off of your camera is also a huge issue, IMO, as it's destroying someone else's property: your photo that you took. I would not let that stand at all.


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## FiveLittleMonkeys (Jan 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Belia* 
My opinion may be very unpopular around here, but I think your daughter is being rude.

She is 14 years old- old enough to understand that there are some things that she should do in spite of the fact that she doesn't want to.

Eat your vegetables, go to the dentist- we do these things to stay healthy.

Hold open a door for other people, say please and thank you, *pose for pictures when it means a lot to your mom*- we do these things to be kind and polite and generous.

I don't think its unreasonable to ask or require her to pose for a limited number of pictures 2-3 times a year (like a PP said- maybe Christmas, birthday, back to school). There's a safety issue too. If she refuses, then I would refuse to do something "optional" for her that she expects / enjoys.

The only mystery part of this question is the fact that you think she may be on the autism spectrum. I'm not sure if that fact should affect your expectations of her.

I agree - I have a just turned 15 yo, and this would be exactly how it would be handled at our house. I would respect the fact that she didn't want to be in pictures ALL the time, she would respect (or at least tolerate) that I would like a FEW. With at least a decent look on her face - not necessarily a smile, but not a frown, grimace or with her hand in front of her face. At 14, she is old enough to do this.

I would also be very upset about the deletion of pictures from my camera.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Is there any chance that perhaps (because she is a pretty girl and shy) that she has been harassed by photo taking that you don't know of? I'm grateful that in my JH/HS days that all cellphones didn't come with cameras for the gym locker room or at other activities. Since there was a sudden change right at puberty (12ish)...I think there are a lot of things that go on that sometimes we don't know about. Was a friend harassed by email/photo texting?

I guess I do not understand what people who think it's okay to force her to have a picture taken or be exiled from family events since she's not doing her "bare minimum to be part of the family" would hope to accomplish by forcing the situation. That sounds like a real moment for connection to me. And it totally wouldn't just feed even further into a power struggle.

Things happen to photos. Houses burn down. Hard drives crash, without backup. The OP does have pictures of DD, just not ones that she particularly likes.

You can't force someone to have an expression that you like. At least pre-digital age, you couldn't--I guess you could give a kid hell now with instant feedback since you don't have a couple of weeks until you develop the film. And what on earth would that accomplish? You might have a prettier picture, but would it be worth the power struggle and relationship bomb, especially if (for whatever reason) the person found it violating?

Edited to add: I also think it's out of line for the DD to be messing with a camera that isn't hers. On the other hand, if she had asked and still felt extremely strongly about the picture taking and her wishes were ignored, I could understand the impulse. But exiling her from family activities because she doesn't want her picture taken? That seems extreme to me. I'm not sure an extreme reaction to an extreme reaction is going to get *anyone* what they want in the end. What would you do if you forced that issue and they called the bluff decided to just withdraw completely from the family? Would that be something desired or enforced?

I don't know. To me, telling someone that they weren't going to be allowed to be around family activities because they refused to get their picture taken, and therefore removing them from family just because of a few pictures is to heavy a price for everyone involved. But then again, pictures don't mean that much to me. I'm not sure I can even remotely begin to relate to that kind of sentiment.


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

The fact that this started around age 12 tells me this is more a teen angst thing than a personality quirk. As a mom of a 16 and 19yo, one of whom is high functioning autistic and the other is borderline personality disorder, my vote is to gently but firmly have a discussion where the boundaries are made clear.

1. You have bent over backwards to accommodate her apparent/supposed problem with having her picture taken. Instead of it helping or improving her behavior (which would be a logical result if this was truly the issue at hand), her behavior has become more and more inappropriate.

2. I think you are doing GREAT to agree to take LESS pictures of her, but part of the beauty of compromise is that she will agree to have SOME pictures taken of her. It's not compromising when she gets her way and you get nothing in return. Her 'right' to not like pictures of herself does not trump your 'right' to take pictures of your family, of which she is a valuable member.

3. She absolutely does not have the right to RUIN pictures you take, whether by waving a hand in front of her face, deleting them off your camera, or any other such nonsense. My response to one of my teens behaving this way would be to ask them to return to our family activity when they are ready/able/willing to be a part of it. Then we break out the ice cream, which usually results in aforementioned teen showing up pretty quickly and nothing more is said.

As for people saying pictures aren't the only way to have memories...

When my mom died when I was 12, I lost everything I had. Every possession I owned was left behind as I was shuttled from family to family and eventually ended up in foster care with nothing more than a pillowcase with a couple changes of clothes. Every memory I had was stolen from me for various reasons.

Last year some distant relatives found me and sent me a photo album. It was about 50 pictures of my childhood. So many of these memories were totally forgotten until I opened this book and they all flooded back. Sadly, my mother was of the 'don't take pictures of me' camp and I have MAYBE 5 pictures of her spanning my entire childhood. It's heartbreaking that her issues with pictures are now a roadblock to memories of my brief time with her. Pictures DO matter to some people. It's ok if they don't matter (yet? Ever?) to this teen, but they DO matter to the OP and it's ok for her to expect a reasonable amount of family pictures without asinine teenage behavior.

OP:


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
A violation is a violation.

It might mean a lot for relatives who are visiting and who don't see kids very often to get a hug too, it's a way to be kind and polite even if you're not so inclined.

Yet I am sure people wouldn't suggest doing the old school forcing children to hug people they didn't want to.

Other people don't have the right to your body. They don't have a right to the image of your body either.

If something makes someone feel violated, then you should not do it. No matter how "silly" you might think it is.

I agree with this, and am surprised others would force or feel like it's their right as a parent to be able to take pictures of a teen who isn't comfortable with it. I love photography, and love pics of my kids - but to look back on a photo of a person who clearly was not happy with having their pic taken seems to defeat the purpose of preserving that memory. I guess I just look at it as a respect thing. If a co-worker refused to allow a pic taken of them, or a friend, most people would honor that. Chances are it's just a phase - so maybe it lasts a couple years - likely those people who continued to hate being photographed never "grew out of it" b/c others made it such a big issue. I just don't think it's the end of the world. Sure, I would be a little bummed if this was how my DD felt, but I'd respect her wishes. We're not talking about something dangerous or immoral here - just photographs.


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

I think those of you who are saying that the OP's daughter is just being rude are underestimating the daughter's discomfort. As a teenager I was not comfortable in my skin. The only way I can think to describe how it felt to have my mother force me into family photos is like this:

You just got out of bed after far too little sleep. It's the first day of your period and you're crampy, cranky and bloated. The water isn't working and your hair really really needs a wash. The only clothes you can find look ugly on you. When you are half dressed, with your least favourite body parts fully exposed your husband walks in and says "I need to take a photo of you right now to send to everybody we know. If you love me you'll smile. If you won't let me take this photo I won't hug or kiss or cuddle you for a week."


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## lindberg99 (Apr 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rachelsmama* 
I think those of you who are saying that the OP's daughter is just being rude are underestimating the daughter's discomfort. As a teenager I was not comfortable in my skin. The only way I can think to describe how it felt to have my mother force me into family photos is like this:

You just got out of bed after far too little sleep. It's the first day of your period and you're crampy, cranky and bloated. The water isn't working and your hair really really needs a wash. The only clothes you can find look ugly on you. When you are half dressed, with your least favourite body parts fully exposed your husband walks in and says "I need to take a photo of you right now to send to everybody we know. If you love me you'll smile. If you won't let me take this photo I won't hug or kiss or cuddle you for a week."

That is totally true! I don't think it's odd at all that this started at 12. That's when it started for me too, although not to such an extreme. I still get mad at my kids when they try to take pics of me when I'm sitting around in my PJ's with my glasses on, etc. And I make them delete the picture.

OP, is your DD in any sports or activities? I used to like getting my picture taken when I was at horse shows with my horse. Maybe she would like some action shots of her playing soccer or something like that where the focus isn't so much on her, but on the activity?


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## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom* 
As someone who has never liked to be photographed, I'd say just respect her wishes and drop it. You don't need to offer excuses to other people.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *rachelsmama* 
Relax, lack of photos is not neglect or abuse.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
You know it is possible to keep a memory book of DD1 without photos. In this situation, I would start a journal about DD1 so she has something in the future to use to look back. No photos, just mom writing about her and her accomplishments and maybe a few momentos from the time. My friend hates getting his picture taken, always has, but he has a box of little keepsakes to remember the important things that happened.

Just want to say to some of the PP, not wanting your picture taken is not selfish behaviour, nor is it something that needs to be grown out of.

Candid photos are even worse for someone who doesn't like their picture taken, it's violating their personal boundaries without even consulting them first.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
*sigh*

It is selfish to _force_ someone to have their picture taken when they clearly don't want it just because you want to have the visual memory. If someone who doesn't like pictures hears you out and agrees to have the one picture take, fine. But if they continue to say "no" and insist on taking their picture or punishing them not sitting for a picture then yes, you are being selfish because their comfort clearly doesn't matter as much as your desire for a piece of paper











I hate having my picture taken, I have since I was in my early teens too. And trust me, trying to force it or trying to get it anyway will only make it worse. I might have been over it by now if it weren't for all the people in my family trying to do candid ones, threatening to send them out, put them on the net etc. It's so hurtful and disrespectful, it actually ruined my whole relationship with several of the most stubborn ones who insisted on trying to take my picture all the time.

I will only allow pictures with my kids and my dear now, I'll do it because I want them myself, and want them to be able to look in albums as they grow up and actually see they had a mom too. But only with my own camera, 'coz I have total control of them that way. And only if you ask nicely first, or I want some myself so I ask my dear to take some. But if someone else tries with their camera and without asking, I will look away, cover my face with hands, hair, books etc.

She might change her mind if she gets a boyfriend, or if she gets married, or have children. Just respect her wishes.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

One of my cousins hates having her picture taken-- she is 18 now and she has hated it since she was 12. Our family has evolved the following agreement with her: she will agree to be in ONE posed and ONE candid picture at every big family occasion (and I mean big, as in a holiday or a wedding). If that picture doesn't turn out well, too bad, no re-takes. No one will try to take her picture at any other time, at least not of her face. She also is willing to have her picture taken once in a while if she is holding a baby/ small child on her lap, partially covering her face (she has one nephew and one or two younger cousins).

That works well and doesn't seem to put too much pressure on her. It's very important, though, that we all honor our promise NEVER to take a picture of my cousin that she hasn't agreed to-- otherwise the system collapses! Also, it's mainly her face she doesn't like photographed, so she doesn't mind having her picture taken from the back. If your daughter feels that way, she might be willing to let you take a picture of her from the back, like if she is sitting on a floor opening presents or something, you might be able to (with previous permission, of course) get a shot of that. That kind of thing is good enough for a private scrapbook IMO.


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## chiara (Apr 6, 2005)

from age 13 - 20 or so there are very few pictures of me, and most of them are of me scowling. I have since recovered. sounds more to me like an adolescent issue than a photo issue.


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## somelady (Nov 16, 2008)

eh, she's doing better than my brother who at 26 still flips the bird pretty much whenever someone tries to take his picture. Though since it's now just for the immediate family we mostly just laugh about it. And I imagine being left out of family activities would have been considered just dandy when he was 14.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Erica hated having her picture taken. But then she hated being noticed at all which was a blessing when she was out in public--no temper tantrums then. We told her that if she cooperated for the first picture, she didn't have to do any repeats. She didn't have to smile, just cooperate. I don't think that we got anything more than a Mona Lisa smile out of her until she became an adult.


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

I guess I'd like to amend my previous suggestions, after reading so many posts about this issue.

Either this is teenage angst and she's being rude, in which case I'd insist that she cut it out in whatever manner works (punishment, bribery, a talk, etc).

Or this is extremely low self-esteem of the type described by some posters, in which case I'd suggest she see someone. Because not only is that no way to go through life but I'd also be worried about the many possibilities for trouble that a teenage girl with a pathologically low level of self-worth could get up to: eating disorders, self-mutilating behavior, abusive relationships, poor decision making, refusal to think about consequences and the future just occurring to me off the top of my head.

Either way, I don't think that her behavior is normal or appropriate. Some people have religious or spiritual reasons for not wanting to be in photographs, and that I understand and respect. But refusing to be in a single photograph to send to grandma? I'm sorry, but that's totally different and imo not okay. You don't even have to look at it, if it's off at grandma's house, so the excuse about not wanting to see yourself in a photograph doesn't even make sense.


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
*sigh*

It is selfish to _force_ someone to have their picture taken when they clearly don't want it just because you want to have the visual memory. If someone who doesn't like pictures hears you out and agrees to have the one picture take, fine. But if they continue to say "no" and insist on taking their picture or punishing them not sitting for a picture then yes, you are being selfish because their comfort clearly doesn't matter as much as your desire for a piece of paper

I have to agree with all of this.


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
A violation is a violation.

It might mean a lot for relatives who are visiting and who don't see kids very often to get a hug too, it's a way to be kind and polite even if you're not so inclined.

Yet I am sure people wouldn't suggest doing the old school forcing children to hug people they didn't want to.

Other people don't have the right to your body. They don't have a right to the image of your body either.

If something makes someone feel violated, then you should not do it. No matter how "silly" you might think it is.

I agree with this too.

Why do we take pictures? To preserve memories. We *want* to take them we do NOT *need* to take them. There are other ways to preserve memories. And if this daughter is fine with other people knowing that they don't get to see her in pictures because she doesn't *want* her picture taken then she is the one that can handle that. It's her choice. We might *want* pictures but it does not mean that our want is more important than the wants of those who the picture is being taken of. It just doesn't.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

I love pictures because I do feel they are a big part of preserving memories for me. I would be heartbroken if my DS at some point refused to have his picture taken.

I think for the OP, your daughter is displaying some teenage angst and some selfishness. Of course you also are displaying some selfishness as well (not a bad thing) because you want the pics. Therefore you both need to compromise. I think your daughter could manage to have her picture taken 1-2 times a year. A picture is not torture, not abusive. It's no worse than having people look at you everyday. I'm sure she doesn't walk around with her hand in front of her face scowling all the time (hopefully not?).

I'm not trying to make light of whatever her issue is. But really I think this is more her age than anything else.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

I had my 15yo dd who doesn't like getting her picture taken, read the OP. She suggests therapy for your dd. She reads depression (if accompanied by constant fatigue) into the description of your dd in the OP.

She also says that once in a while, your dd should be forced to at least act happy for photos (eg. the Christmas card one). She says your dd doesn't have to smile, but no death glare.

This is a direct quote, she's reading over my shoulder.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

She's gone now. She doesn't mean forced as in threatened, she means it should be expected. But no suggestions as to how to accomplish this from her.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Porcelain Interior* 
Yes. It isn't about her thinking she looks bad in photos, it's about control and her not wanting her photo taken period. She ducks and covers her face every single time. In previous years we've used real live animal props (her cat for instance lol) in the family photo, or we've allowed her to be in profile so she doesn't really have to smile. Now it's no photo period.

She takes my camera and deletes ANY and ALL pictures of herself.

Rewards and bribing have never worked with her.









She's 14 btw, and this photo-aversion thing started gradually when she was in the 6th grade.

She's very stubborn. If she doesn't want to do something it's not happening.

She hates any attention being drawn to herself, she's an introvert and it's getting more pronounced the older she gets.

I guess I allowed it at first out of respect, I certainly don't enjoy people taking my picture when I'd rather not be in one.

Seems I've created a monster, as she doesn't feel obligated to ever be photographed.

Ahhhh. She's 14. Well, she's old enough to cooperate. Period.

Personally, if she is ruining family photos - I would give consequences. You know, like "dd,you need to cooperate with me and smile for the photo. You will need my cooperation later, so let's do this for each other." If she can't cooperate, then give a consequence.

Also, my dd (also 14) wanted to disagree over what to wear etc in a family photo I was paying for. We have this photo done every 5 years or so. I told her straight up I was paying for the photo, she needed to suck it up and wear the outfit I picked out.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

I don't have time to read this whole thread right now, but I wanted to post my reply.

First of all, I know what you mean because my husband is a photographer and my son is sometimes very tired of being a subject. And he is ALWAYS a subject. But that's understandable. My suggestion to you would be to buy her a camera and then don't mention it again. She will surely start photographing herself; kids can't seem to help hamming it up!

And if she's grumpy in photos, so what? That's her honest feeling at the time the photo was taken. Maybe she resents being asked to "perform" and display a certain emotion when it's not genuine.

My second suggestion is to treat it as a business transaction. Honestly. Say that you value having family photos (and drag out the scrapbook to show her the photos you DO have and show her how nice it is), and say that you understand she doesn't enjoy doing it that much, but that you'd pay her to be a model. Agree on a set "modeling fee" and just pay her. Seriously! Why not? I have done that with my son. He gets over it pretty fast and now doesn't charge us. I think I bribed him with a quarter once (he is 6) and he never did collect. But it's a way to show respect and give her a chance to get something out of it too.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

I'm astounded by the people who think this is something to punish your child over because she doesn't like having her personal privacy invaded.

It is not like eating your vegetables in the least. There are no known health benefits to being photographed against your will. Personally, I make memories through experience, not through a viewfinder.

If you don't have family memories without photos, I find that very bizarre. My mother was very seldom photographed--her choice, and I have many, many memories of her.

If at some point your dd regrets not being in family photos, oh well. That's just a natural consequence of her own decisions.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

Oh yes,and the longer people pressure her and make a big deal out of it, the longer her resistance is likely to last. In other words, you could try just taking the year off from mentioning it AT ALL. Then she's likely to just naturally forget the resistance. But seriously....because all these other folks have a huge EMOTIONAL stake in it, I bet it's affecting her ability to have a relaxed clarity on the subject.


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom* 
I'm astounded by the people who think this is something to punish your child over because she doesn't like having her personal privacy invaded.

It is not like eating your vegetables in the least. There are no known health benefits to being photographed against your will. Personally, I make memories through experience, not through a viewfinder.

If you don't have family memories without photos, I find that very bizarre. My mother was very seldom photographed--her choice, and I have many, many memories of her.

That's lovely for you, but not everyone has the same experience, or the same good memory you do.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom* 
If at some point your dd regrets not being in family photos, oh well. That's just a natural consequence of her own decisions.

Which would be fine if the world revolved around the DD. But my understanding from the OP and her updates is that these photos were to be mailed to grandma. This isn't just about the DD, it's about her being part of a larger family and having to do something that should be completely innocuous (causes her no pain, requires absolutely nothing from her except to act normal) but that she doesn't want to do, either because she has emotional problems that need to be worked through or because she's being rude.


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## Porcelain Interior (Feb 8, 2008)

Wow this thread is like a mushroom! Very hard to keep up with it grew overnight.

Just a few comments from me the OP...

*I never said I don't have memories if I don't have photos, to the pp who said that, that's just a weird sort of thing to say. Believe it or not some people enjoy family photographs- especially years down the line when you hit generations that didn't get to meet older family members and want to put a face or a place to a family story. Not necessary, but still beautiful and worth saving.

*My daughter is possibly on the spectrum, and we're in the middle of counseling and trying to find out how to make her quality of life (anxiety/depression/introversion) better, or if she's actually happy and really does just want to be left alone. We're totally on top of this and making sure she's provided with an environment that's conducive to her personality and respectful of her choices as far as how she wants to live her life- while also trying to maintain family harmony. She's not in any way a brat. She does have a selfish bent, and she's very private. She's always been odd when compared to her peers. This probably is the root of her unhappiness, that she is not accepted. We've worked hard to meet her where she's at and to accentuate and celebrate her differences, not try and tamp down on them or change them.

The photo thing is just one of the pieces of the puzzle we've been "puzzled" over because it's not just about her.

Anyway this is a good discussion and ya'll can continue discussing it, I'll keep reading. I've already made my mind up though and will not push any photos for the time being.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

I'm stunned by the number of people who think it's fine for someone to refuse to be photographed for years.

They've already spent years dealing with this. I think that catering to it for another year is entirely the wrong approach. The girl needs to grow up and figure out that it's not all about her.

I'm really impressed at how much patience the OP has already shown. That approach obviously isn't working. So, I think it's time for a more direct approach.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Well, I'm surprised at the number of people who feel it's ok to force someone to have their personal boundaries violated just because they want a picture.

It's not always about being rude.

It's not always about having self-esteem issues.

Sometimes it's just about not wanting people to take your picture, and forcing the matter will only make it worse. She will either learn to deal with sitting for pictures eventually, or just opt out of any future photos. What I don't get is that most of us wouldn't force an adult to have their picture taken if they didn't want it, but we think it's ok to force a teenager.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I'm stunned by the number of people who think it's fine for someone to refuse to be photographed for years.

They've already spent years dealing with this. I think that catering to it for another year is entirely the wrong approach. The girl needs to grow up and figure out that it's not all about her.

I'm really impressed at how much patience the OP has already shown. That approach obviously isn't working. So, I think it's time for a more direct approach.

I hate being photographed. Absolutely hate it. I don't have "emotional issues." I'm a well-adjusted, highly successful professional and am raising a happy well-adjusted family. I'm not "on the spectrum." It just feels like an intense violation of my privacy to be photographed against my will. Being photographed is not completely benign. It is a violation.

Nobody has any "right" to have pictures of me. Nobody. If my parents had forced me to have pictures taken when I was a kid, that would just have made me resent them and would not have made me feel more positive about being photographed.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I'm stunned by the number of people who think it's fine for someone to refuse to be photographed for years.

They've already spent years dealing with this. I think that catering to it for another year is entirely the wrong approach. *The girl needs to grow up and figure out that it's not all about her.*

I'm really impressed at how much patience the OP has already shown. That approach obviously isn't working. So, I think it's time for a more direct approach.

So it's all about her because _she_ doesn't want _her_ picture taken. I'm guessing she doesn't care if other people are getting their picture taken. A good part of it _is_ about her because it's her body and face that is going to be in the picture. Sometimes the picture taker needs to realize it's not all about _them_ and accept that some people just won't ever consent to having their picture taken. And you know, the person refusing doesn't even need a reason, let alone a good one.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 

Other people don't have the right to your body. They don't have a right to the image of your body either.

That right there is the issue. No one has the right to force you to do anything with your body, including let it be photographed.


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I'm stunned by the number of people who think it's fine for someone to refuse to be photographed for years.

They've already spent years dealing with this. I think that catering to it for another year is entirely the wrong approach. *The girl needs to grow up and figure out that it's not all about her.*

I'm really impressed at how much patience the OP has already shown. *That approach obviously isn't working.* So, I think it's time for a more direct approach.

It IS all about her. Her body. Her right to do or not do what she wants with it.

And also it's only not working because the OP was still puzzled by it and trying to work through her love and obvious want to work with her daughter with her want to include her in things like scrapbooks and be able to send pictures to Grandma.

Not being in scrapbooks/photo albums is a natural consequence to not having your picture taken. If I didn't want my picture taken I'd accept that as the consequence. As for Grandma, again she has no "right" to have pictures of her grandchild. None. Would it be nice? Sure, I'm not saying she wouldn't like one. But she is not owed one.

So actually it IS working if the teenager feels her boundaries are being respected and everyone else can get on board with the natural consequences of this and agree to not be thrilled about it but also not push what isn't going to work to be pushed anyway.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *philomom* 
I've worked hard as parent and I deserve to have a few pictures a year of my children as they grow. This does not make me a bad parent in any way, shape or form. There are a handful of things that a child should just buck up and do for a loving parent. Really.

I agree.

I haven't gotten through the whole thread yet. Have we discussed what dd says about WHY she dislikes having her photo taken? If you have right of veto over pix you really consider bad, what is the harm? I understand that she really hates it, will do anything to stop it - but why? Even if she is on the spectrum, can it really be THAT upsetting to her that as a 14 year old she can't find SOME time/way to let her mom have a photo of her? Alone without others watching? With a beloved pet or playing guitar or something she enjoys but not having to look at the camera?

Sorry, off to finish the thread... But OP, I really understand being extremely sad about not having photos of dd1. And I understand feeling it is unfair to photo document dd2 but not dd1. But it isn't your fault that dd1 is so anti-photo, and it isn't dd2's fault either. I'd still make scrapbooks of her, because it really wouldn't be ok to ignore her childhood in pictures because her sister is against pictures.


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Porcelain Interior* 
Anyway this is a good discussion and ya'll can continue discussing it, I'll keep reading. I've already made my mind up though and will not push any photos for the time being.

I think this is a very wise and respectful decision, and while it is sad that you won't have the photos that you would like, your willingness to respect your daughter will probably result in a better relationship in the long term, and you will probably get to see HER more often.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom* 
I'm astounded by the people who think this is something to punish your child over because she doesn't like having her personal privacy invaded.

It is not like eating your vegetables in the least. There are no known health benefits to being photographed against your will. Personally, I make memories through experience, not through a viewfinder.

If you don't have family memories without photos, I find that very bizarre. My mother was very seldom photographed--her choice, and I have many, many memories of her.

If at some point your dd regrets not being in family photos, oh well. That's just a natural consequence of her own decisions.

It may not be important to you. That's probably why you didn't post a question about what to do if your child didn't want a photo taken.....









This is apparently important to the OP and she posted to get some feedback on how to handle this. So we did post a few responses....


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Porcelain Interior* 
*My daughter is possibly on the spectrum, and we're in the middle of counseling and trying to find out how to make her quality of life (anxiety/depression/introversion) better, or if she's actually happy and really does just want to be left alone.

My dd (that responded) will be pleased to hear that.


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## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NellieKatz* 
Oh yes,and the longer people pressure her and make a big deal out of it, the longer her resistance is likely to last. In other words, you could try just taking the year off from mentioning it AT ALL. Then she's likely to just naturally forget the resistance. But seriously....because all these other folks have a huge EMOTIONAL stake in it, I bet it's affecting her ability to have a relaxed clarity on the subject.

Yup, absolutely.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom* 
I hate being photographed. Absolutely hate it. I don't have "emotional issues." I'm a well-adjusted, highly successful professional and am raising a happy well-adjusted family. I'm not "on the spectrum." It just feels like an intense violation of my privacy to be photographed against my will. Being photographed is not completely benign. It is a violation.

Nobody has any "right" to have pictures of me. Nobody. If my parents had forced me to have pictures taken when I was a kid, that would just have made me resent them and would not have made me feel more positive about being photographed.

Yes and yes. As I've experienced first hand, like I said earlier, some of the family members who always tried to take my picture and force me when I was young is still someone I don't really talk to or see.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Well, I'm surprised at the number of people who feel it's ok to force someone to have their personal boundaries violated just because they want a picture.

It's not always about being rude.

It's not always about having self-esteem issues.

Sometimes it's just about not wanting people to take your picture, and forcing the matter will only make it worse. She will either learn to deal with sitting for pictures eventually, or just opt out of any future photos. What I don't get is that most of us wouldn't force an adult to have their picture taken if they didn't want it, but we think it's ok to force a teenager.

Yeah, that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Porcelain Interior* 
Anyway this is a good discussion and ya'll can continue discussing it, I'll keep reading. I've already made my mind up though and will not push any photos for the time being.

That's an excellent decision. I agree with this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rachelsmama* 
I think this is a very wise and respectful decision, and while it is sad that you won't have the photos that you would like, your willingness to respect your daughter will probably result in a better relationship in the long term, and you will probably get to see HER more often.

We are very respectful of our kids and their personal boundaries, and our grown, 21 yo. has moved out, but she's home several times every week. She also had a period in her teens when she didn't want to be in photos, we respected that, didn't push it (and didn't allow anyone else to bug her or push her) and she got over it eventually. And even gave us some pictures she had taken of herself with her own camera in that period. And since there was no issue over it, it's nothing she resents us for. I can only imagine that she would have moved out earlier and not been home as much if we had not respected her like we did.


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

I'm glad to hear that you're working through whatever issues she may or may not have. Hopefully you'll be able to shed some light on whatever's going on with her that is making her this unhappy.

Someone earlier mentioned a 24yo old brother who flips the bird at cameras: I've known a few guys over the course of my life who think it's absolutely hilarious to do this, and I absolutely guarantee you that no one finds it amusing or quirky to ruin other people's photos. These guys (it's always guys, in my experience) tend not to be particularly well-liked or fun to be around, except as party-hard frat boy types. I think it's a good idea to figure this out now, because what's acceptable as teen angst on a 15yo is considerably less acceptable on a 20-something. So if it's something she's going to grow out of that's fine, and if it's something that she won't grow out of for whatever reason then she can at least get a diagnosis and you can all work on things.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rachelsmama* 
I think this is a very wise and respectful decision, and while it is sad that you won't have the photos that you would like, your willingness to respect your daughter will probably result in a better relationship in the long term, and you will probably get to see HER more often.









:


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
What I don't get is that most of us wouldn't force an adult to have their picture taken if they didn't want it, but we think it's ok to force a teenager.

Yes, but the OP is not talking about some random adult.

It's her child, who she is raising. There's lots of things you wouldn't force an adult to do - that argument doesn't really apply. If an adult came over and trashed my house, I wouldn't make them clean it up, I just wouldn't invite them over again. I'm raising my kids, though, so I need to teach them how to behave.

I think the OP sounds like she's on top of the situation and handling it beautifully, but for the sake of the larger argument I want to say this.

This doesn't sound so much like it's an issue of having oneself photographed, but of teaching children that they are part of a family and, as such, have some obligations that might occasionally make them uncomfortable. I want my children to learn this. I want them to know that even though they think their great-grandparents are kind of scary-looking, they still have an obligation to act as politely as they can as is appropriate for their age/development. It's kind of the same, I think.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
Yes, but the OP is not talking about some random adult.

It's her child, who she is raising. There's lots of things you wouldn't force an adult to do - that argument doesn't really apply. If an adult came over and trashed my house, I wouldn't make them clean it up, I just wouldn't invite them over again. I'm raising my kids, though, so I need to teach them how to behave.

I think the OP sounds like she's on top of the situation and handling it beautifully, but for the sake of the larger argument I want to say this.

This doesn't sound so much like it's an issue of having oneself photographed, but of teaching children that they are part of a family and, as such, have some obligations that might occasionally make them uncomfortable. I want my children to learn this. I want them to know that even though they think their great-grandparents are kind of scary-looking, they still have an obligation to act as politely as they can as is appropriate for their age/development. It's kind of the same, I think.



Well said. I completely agree!









And teenagers do need to be forced to do things sometimes!!!!!


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

If an adult came over and trashed my house, I would at the very least make them clean it up.

The point is, you respect the boundaries of adults, why not respect the boundaries of children? I mean, part of being a parent is teaching our kids not only to set boundaries for themselves, but to respect the boundaries others set out.


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
I'm glad to hear that you're working through whatever issues she may or may not have. Hopefully you'll be able to shed some light on whatever's going on with her that is making her this unhappy.

Someone earlier mentioned a 24yo old brother who flips the bird at cameras: I've known a few guys over the course of my life who think it's absolutely hilarious to do this, and I absolutely guarantee you that no one finds it amusing or quirky to ruin other people's photos. These guys (it's always guys, in my experience) tend not to be particularly well-liked or fun to be around, except as party-hard frat boy types. I think it's a good idea to figure this out now, because what's acceptable as teen angst on a 15yo is considerably less acceptable on a 20-something. So if it's something she's going to grow out of that's fine, and if it's something that she won't grow out of for whatever reason then she can at least get a diagnosis and you can all work on things.

There is a difference between an obnoxious person purposefully ruining a picture by flipping the bird when it is not appropriate and a person who does not want any part of being in the picture in the first place. She is not ruining the pictures to be funny, she is holding her hand up, flipping her hair down, or turning away in order to stop herself from being seen in the picture. It's not a secret that she does not want her picture taken. More than one person on this thread have said that they are perfectly well adjusted adults who do not want their picture taken. If that's the reason for this girl (and not say just trying to be rude) then it's not something to be "fixed".

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab* 
And teenagers do need to be forced to do things sometimes!!!!!









There is a difference between needing to pull your weight in household chores or needing to complete one's education up to a certain level and having one's picture taken. I'd agree that a teenager needs to do their household stuff even when they don't want to for the sake of the whole family (things like cleaning up messes and whatever other duties are needed from them). Taking their picture again isn't the same thing though. Someone else having their picture isn't a need, it's a want.


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

I am just astonished at the number of people who think teenagers should be forced to be a in a picture, even thought they hate having their picture taken, b/c by God, pictures are a God given right of every parent and relatives will DIE if they don't get one picture a year of your child. The only person this is going to hurt long term is your child.


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## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
If an adult came over and trashed my house, I would at the very least make them clean it up.

The point is, you respect the boundaries of adults, why not respect the boundaries of children? I mean, part of being a parent is teaching our kids not only to set boundaries for themselves, but to respect the boundaries others set out.

Yeah, that, again.


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
Ah, she's 14. I was thinking she was 3 or 4. Sorry.

My mom is also like this. She is a PITA to get to pose for pictures. I finally blew up at her and pointed out one day that it wasn't all about her and that I wanted the pictures for myself because she wasn't going to live forever and I wanted to be able to show my grandkids what she looked like and have pictures for myself to remember her. She's in her 60s, though, so able to be slightly less selfish.

BUT! I do think it's selfish. I hope none of the pps are offended, but pictures are really not for the photographed, unless you're getting portraits at Sears. It's for the loved ones who want to have a picture of you. So maybe you could point that out to her.

Wow, if I were your mother, I'd likely never speak to you again. I HATE being in pictures. I look horrid in them. I've gained a ton of weight since I went off my ADHD medicine and I refuse to be in pictures if I don't have to.



JL83 said:


> We believe in mostly CL. That means that 1 person doesn't get to wreck things for everyone else. We do things that are good for everyone.
> 
> At the age of 14 she's old enough to suffer through and let her picture be taken. It's no longer a phase and straight disrespect to the rest of the family. She's not a toddler anymore.
> 
> ...


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Crystal_R* 
I am just astonished at the number of people who think teenagers should be forced to be a in a picture, even thought they hate having their picture taken, b/c by God, pictures are a God given right of every parent and relatives will DIE if they don't get one picture a year of your child. The only person this is going to hurt long term is your child.

I don't know, if I were grandma and lived far away and rarely saw my grandchildren, I'd be pretty hurt and not the least bit understanding if I was told "Oh, yeah, she doesn't care enough about you to let me send you a picture of her. This is all about her, and she thinks she's ugly. You'll live. Hopefully. I mean, people live to really old ages these days, right?"

While many people have said that they hate being in pictures, personally I don't think that anyone has presented a valid reason why. There's been a lot of "I think I'm ugly" (and, IMO, that's not a "well-adjusted" reason to be so completely adamant about not having your photo taken) but if you don't even see the picture, who cares? It makes someone else happy. I think probably the biggest lesson a teenager, any teenager, needs to learn is that it isn't all about you.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

It's frustrating, to be sure, but I think photos are kind of a luxury more than a necessity. I grew up with a mother who hated cameras and anything to do with them--I'm 43 and my mom is 83, so that's not that unusual for my childhood era. We did have some family photos because there were some men in my family who were into photography, but it was hard to explain to my MIL who wanted some childhood photos of me that my mom just didn't take photos. I was going to say I'm not sure she's ever used a camera in her life, but actually she was a real estate agent, so she did take photos of her listings.

I hit puberty and was quite ugly, but I still always posed for photos. For that matter I hate the way I look in photos, but I think it's unrealistic of me to stick my head in the sand and pretend that that's not what I look like (my dad always said you take a picture of a broom, you get a broom). So I try and look at all my ugly photos and just see me as a person in a neutral sense, not ugly or pretty. I don't think not taking photos is necessarily beneficial to self esteem, I think it just encourages us to have one view of beauty, and make things worse.

That said, there are just people who won't let you take their photo, period. My husband hates photos, he frowns in the few I might take of him. My now 6 year old made faces or turned her head in most of the photos I took of her for a two year period. I figure that's part of the story. Half my photo albums have captions about how I was lucky to get the photo, or what the person was doing when I took the photo.

My nephew would put his hand up in front of his face, always, and would joke that we were trying to steal his soul. I think once as a gift, he posed for a photo, and I've noticed he's taken some photos of his own on his cell phone. Does your daughter have a cell phone? Maybe she takes her own photos.







I wish my mother would have taken more photos of us, but it sounds like you have offered and she has refused, so you really shouldn't worry about how it's going to look in the future. It's part of her personality and the memories you will have.


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
While many people have said that they hate being in pictures, personally I don't think that anyone has presented a valid reason why. There's been a lot of "I think I'm ugly" (and, IMO, that's not a "well-adjusted" reason to be so completely adamant about not having your photo taken) *but if you don't even see the picture, who cares?*

Knowing that I was on display in a bunch of people's houses left me feeling very exposed at a time in my life when I was very insecure and vallued my privacy. It felt very much like someone taking my photo was taking a little piece of me away with them to hand out as they saw fit. It also made me feel rather cheap that so many relatives were only interested in my photo, not who I was or what I might have to say.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
I don't know, if I were grandma and lived far away and rarely saw my grandchildren, I'd be pretty hurt and not the least bit understanding if I was told "Oh, yeah, she doesn't care enough about you to let me send you a picture of her. This is all about her, and she thinks she's ugly. You'll live. Hopefully. I mean, people live to really old ages these days, right?"

While many people have said that they hate being in pictures, personally I don't think that anyone has presented a valid reason why. There's been a lot of "I think I'm ugly" (and, IMO, that's not a "well-adjusted" reason to be so completely adamant about not having your photo taken) but if you don't even see the picture, who cares? It makes someone else happy. I think probably the biggest lesson a teenager, any teenager, needs to learn is that it isn't all about you.

I dunno, if I were a grandparent living far away and my child said to me "I'm really sorry about not being able to send pictures of child, but right now he/she really doesn't feel comfortable with having his/her picture taken." I would accept that.

Now if my child called up and said ""Oh, yeah, she doesn't care enough about you to let me send you a picture of her. This is all about her, and she thinks she's ugly. You'll live. Hopefully. I mean, people live to really old ages these days, right?" I would probably say: "I'm sure she cares plenty about me, and if I don't get pictures that's just fine. I'd just rather you not make her out to be a brat because she doesn't want pictures taken."


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rachelsmama* 
Knowing that I was on display in a bunch of people's houses left me feeling very exposed at a time in my life when I was very insecure and vallued my privacy. It felt very much like someone taking my photo was taking a little piece of me away with them to hand out as they saw fit. It also made me feel rather cheap that so many relatives were only interested in my photo, not who I was or what I might have to say.











Knowing the pictures are out there for god only knows who to look at can make someone feel very much violated, even if they never saw the pictures themself.


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
I don't know, if I were grandma and lived far away and rarely saw my grandchildren, I'd be pretty hurt and not the least bit understanding if I was told "Oh, yeah, she doesn't care enough about you to let me send you a picture of her. This is all about her, and she thinks she's ugly. You'll live. Hopefully. I mean, people live to really old ages these days, right?"

While many people have said that they hate being in pictures, personally I don't think that anyone has presented a valid reason why. There's been a lot of "I think I'm ugly" (and, IMO, that's not a "well-adjusted" reason to be so completely adamant about not having your photo taken) *but if you don't even see the picture, who cares?* It makes someone else happy. I think probably the biggest lesson a teenager, any teenager, needs to learn is that it isn't all about you.

I'm sure the people who have pictures taken of them when they are drunk and passed out or when they are in the middle of adult activities without their knowledge and consent feel the same way. Truly.









Do I think that a parent is abusing their child by taking their picture. Obviously not, I take a million of my kids. But they want them taken. And I reiterate NOONE has the right to a picture of any part of any other person without their consent.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
If an adult came over and trashed my house, I would at the very least make them clean it up.

The point is, you respect the boundaries of adults, why not respect the boundaries of children? I mean, part of being a parent is teaching our kids not only to set boundaries for themselves, but to respect the boundaries others set out.

Yes, but I personally don't operate under the assumption that you can always respect their boundaries. Sometimes, as parents, we have to cross what they have set out as boundaries for their own good. And sometimes, we have to explain to them that what they are thinking of as their boundaries are unacceptable.

Again, I don't think the child should be forced to be photographed. However, I would point out all of the above to her, in an ongoing attempt to teach children about their community and their place in the world and the feelings of others.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Crystal_R* 
I am just astonished at the number of people who think teenagers should be forced to be a in a picture, even thought they hate having their picture taken, b/c by God, pictures are a God given right of every parent and relatives will DIE if they don't get one picture a year of your child. The only person this is going to hurt long term is your child.

How does it hurt the child long term?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Polliwog* 
Wow, if I were your mother, I'd likely never speak to you again. I HATE being in pictures. I look horrid in them. I've gained a ton of weight since I went off my ADHD medicine and I refuse to be in pictures if I don't have to.

I'm going to gently suggest that you get over yourself. You may hate the way you look in pictures, but you know what? Your children love you and think you are beautiful. If you were killed tomorrow, they would most likely desperately want to have a photographic memory of you. Not grimacing, either, like my mother often does in pictures, but truly smiling as well as you can. Did you read Theoretica's post above?

I have dealt with this all my life with my mother. She has never once said one positive thing about her appearance. Never! Of course, to me, she was the most beautiful woman in the world for most of my life.

I have come to believe that that kind of self-consciousness is vanity expressed in a different way. Why do you think your physical flaws shouldn't show up in pictures? Why do you think it matters? I would bet you that no one else in your family thinks it does.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

And here is a picture of my mother with me as a baby:

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i.../nancy0090.jpg

She seriously believes herself to be the ugliest person on earth, and will not be disabused of this notion. I'm SO happy to have this picture, one of very few with us.


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *triscuitsmom* 
I'm sure the people who have pictures taken of them when they are drunk and passed out or when they are in the middle of adult activities without their knowledge and consent feel the same way. Truly.









Do I think that a parent is abusing their child by taking their picture. Obviously not, I take a million of my kids. But they want them taken. And I reiterate NOONE has the right to a picture of any part of any other person without their consent.

I think that's a really unfair comparison.

I also disagree that no one has the right to take a photograph of someone else. Even besides the fact that there's a pretty strong legal precedence about the rights of photographers, I'm sorry but I do think it's a god-given parental right to take a picture of the kids at Christmas to send to Grandma. I guess we're just going to have to disagree.


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
I'm going to gently suggest that you get over yourself. You may hate the way you look in pictures, but you know what? Your children love you and think you are beautiful. If you were killed tomorrow, they would most likely desperately want to have a photographic memory of you. Not grimacing, either, like my mother often does in pictures, but truly smiling as well as you can. Did you read Theoretica's post above?

I have dealt with this all my life with my mother. She has never once said one positive thing about her appearance. Never! Of course, to me, she was the most beautiful woman in the world for most of my life.

I have come to believe that that kind of self-consciousness is vanity expressed in a different way. Why do you think your physical flaws shouldn't show up in pictures? Why do you think it matters? I would bet you that no one else in your family thinks it does.

I agree with all this.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
And here is a picture of my mother with me as a baby:

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i.../nancy0090.jpg

She seriously believes herself to be the ugliest person on earth, and will not be disabused of this notion. I'm SO happy to have this picture, one of very few with us.

She is lovely, and you are adorable! What a sweet picture. You both look so happy.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
Yes, but I personally don't operate under the assumption that you can always respect their boundaries. Sometimes, as parents, we have to cross what they have set out as boundaries for their own good. And sometimes, we have to explain to them that what they are thinking of as their boundaries are unacceptable.

Again, I don't think the child should be forced to be photographed. However, I would point out all of the above to her, in an ongoing attempt to teach children about their community and their place in the world and the feelings of others.

But you can teach your kids about respecting the feelings of other best by respecting their feelings. Not being in a photograph isn't the end of the world and doesn't really hurt anyone. Certainly not for their own good that they sit for a photo when they are truely not wanting to.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 

I have come to believe that that kind of self-consciousness is vanity expressed in a different way. Why do you think your physical flaws shouldn't show up in pictures? Why do you think it matters? I would bet you that no one else in your family thinks it does.

Not wanting to be photographed doesn't always have to do with self-consciousness. I'm not fond of having my picture taken just because I don't like having my picture taken. There are times when you could get me on camera if you snuck around in the shadows to catch me off guard. I have no problem with how I look. I have no problem with how I look in photos. On the other hand I have been violated severly by someone taking pictures of me he shouldn't have and do have an aversion to be photographed because of it. Someone who attempts to take my picture after I have expressly told them "no" will not, in the near future if ever again, get a "yes". They have refused to awknowledge my feelings on the matter and have forfited the possibility of me being willing to sit for a picture because of it.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
I agree with all this.

She is lovely, and you are adorable! What a sweet picture. You both look so happy.

I know, she's actually a very beautiful person. It was very confusing to me to grow up with her bad-mouthing herself so much.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
I think that's a really unfair comparison.

I also disagree that no one has the right to take a photograph of someone else. Even besides the fact that there's a pretty strong legal precedence about the rights of photographers, I'm sorry but I do think it's a god-given parental right to take a picture of the kids at Christmas to send to Grandma. I guess we're just going to have to disagree.

I just can't agree that parents have a god-given right to violate their kids boundaries when not doing so won't harm anyone significantly.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Just a question.

For those who have family member who aren't in many pictures... Aren't the few and far between pictures all the more precious? I'd rather have few pictures of DD happy, then a whole bunch of her trying to hide from the camera or ruin the picture.


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
But you can teach your kids about respecting the feelings of other best by respecting their feelings. Not being in a photograph isn't the end of the world and doesn't really hurt anyone. Certainly not for their own good that they sit for a photo when they are truely not wanting to.

I think it could hurt someone a whole lot more to NOT have a photograph of a loved one, especially a loved one you are separated from by distance, than it could possibly ever hurt to have your photograph taken.


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## amma_mama (May 20, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
So it's all about her because _she_ doesn't want _her_ picture taken. I'm guessing she doesn't care if other people are getting their picture taken. A good part of it _is_ about her because it's her body and face that is going to be in the picture. Sometimes the picture taker needs to realize it's not all about _them_ and accept that some people just won't ever consent to having their picture taken. And you know, the person refusing doesn't even need a reason, let alone a good one.

That right there is the issue. No one has the right to force you to do anything with your body, including let it be photographed.

I could not have said it better...I do not really like having my picture taken and never did. I do allow pictures sometimes and sometimes I don't - it depends on how I am feeling at the time. It is my body, my image, and my perogative.

As a parent, though, the only thing that I would insist on is an annual picture to keep for emergencies. I would promise not to send it around to family or friends and would keep it private if that was my child's wish.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
I think it could hurt someone a whole lot more to NOT have a photograph of a loved one, especially a loved one you are separated from by distance, than it could possibly ever hurt to have your photograph taken.

So, being upset because you can't see a picture of someone is more damaging then the feeling of having your personal boundaries violated?

Sorry, I cannot agree to that.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amma_mama* 

As a parent, though, the only thing that I would insist on is an annual picture to keep for emergencies. I would promise not to send it around to family or friends and would keep it private if that was my child's wish.

That would be about the only time I can think where it can be required. A private "just for us two, in case something happens" type of picture.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
I think it could hurt someone a whole lot more to NOT have a photograph of a loved one, especially a loved one you are separated from by distance, than it could possibly ever hurt to have your photograph taken.

Thank you for that. I feel that way, too!


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
So, being upset because you can't see a picture of someone is more damaging then the feeling of having your personal boundaries violated?

Sorry, I cannot agree to that.

I'm coming at this thinking that those "boundaries" are irrational. I don't have any interest in bending over backwards to completely irrational "boundaries" that actually do hurt someone else (assuming that Grandma is looking forward to this photograph since she can't see her lovely grandchildren in person on a holiday which is traditionally family-centered).

A photograph hurts no one one. No one on this thread has presented any rational reason why a photograph is harmful or crossing any sort of reasonable boundaries: the reasons given have ranged from pathologically low self esteem, to something that sounds an awful lot like depression, to what can only be described as extreme paranoia. There was one person who alluded to an incident (I'm assuming sexual assault?) which made her feel unsafe having her photograph out there: severe anxiety and paranoia sounds like a perfectly normal reaction to a traumatic incident, and is exactly the type of reason why victims of abuse should seen counseling. But barring extreme circumstance, where counseling to move on and put your life back together is in order, I'm sorry but I just don't think that wanting to take a single nice photograph of your child is the least bit unreasonable. I've already suggested to OP that she take her daughter for counseling, and OP has said that she's looking into it.


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
I think it could hurt someone a whole lot more to NOT have a photograph of a loved one, especially a loved one you are separated from by distance, than it could possibly ever hurt to have your photograph taken.

Well, being photographed involuntarily can hurt enough to severely damage a relationship. Why risk alienating your children by forcing them to be photographed against their wills when there are so many other things that could be meaningful mementos. There are letters kicking around that my grandmother wrote that are far more meaningful than any of the photos of her. I know more about her through one letter than I do from all of her photographs.


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
I'm coming at this thinking that those "boundaries" are irrational. I don't have any interest in bending over backwards to completely irrational "boundaries" that actually do hurt someone else (assuming that Grandma is looking forward to this photograph since she can't see her lovely grandchildren in person on a holiday which is traditionally family-centered).

A photograph hurts no one one. No one on this thread has presented any rational reason why a photograph is harmful or crossing any sort of reasonable boundaries: the reasons given have ranged from pathologically low self esteem, to something that sounds an awful lot like depression, to what can only be described as extreme paranoia. There was one person who alluded to an incident (I'm assuming sexual assault?) which made her feel unsafe having her photograph out there: severe anxiety and paranoia sounds like a perfectly normal reaction to a traumatic incident, and is exactly the type of reason why victims of abuse should seen counseling. But barring extreme circumstance, where counseling to move on and put your life back together is in order, I'm sorry but I just don't think that wanting to take a single nice photograph of your child is the least bit unreasonable. I've already suggested to OP that she take her daughter for counseling, and OP has said that she's looking into it.

You don't have to understand why it bothers some people so much, but the facts are:

-rational or not, some people do feel violated by unwanted photography
-children grow up to be adults, and as adults they have the right to associate with whoever they want, and tend to prefer people who make them feel good rather than people who make them feel violated and call them irrational.

If photos are your priority then I don't think anybody's going to call CPS on you for forcing your kids to sit in front of a camera, but there may be consequences when the kids grow up.


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
I don't know, if I were grandma and lived far away and rarely saw my grandchildren, I'd be pretty hurt and not the least bit understanding if I was told "Oh, yeah, she doesn't care enough about you to let me send you a picture of her. This is all about her, and she thinks she's ugly. You'll live. Hopefully. I mean, people live to really old ages these days, right?"

While many people have said that they hate being in pictures, personally I don't think that anyone has presented a valid reason why. There's been a lot of "I think I'm ugly" (and, IMO, that's not a "well-adjusted" reason to be so completely adamant about not having your photo taken) but if you don't even see the picture, who cares? It makes someone else happy. I think probably the biggest lesson a teenager, any teenager, needs to learn is that it isn't all about you.

Forcing a child to be in a picture they don't want to be in makes it all about you as the parent. Your child refuses to do something b/c they loathe it, but you're the adult so your wishes are more valid then theirs? Why is grandma's desire to have a picture more valid that a teen's desire to not be in pictures?


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
I'm coming at this thinking that those "boundaries" are irrational. I don't have any interest in bending over backwards to completely irrational "boundaries" that actually do hurt someone else (assuming that Grandma is looking forward to this photograph since she can't see her lovely grandchildren in person on a holiday which is traditionally family-centered).

A photograph hurts no one one. No one on this thread has presented any rational reason why a photograph is harmful or crossing any sort of reasonable boundaries: the reasons given have ranged from pathologically low self esteem, to something that sounds an awful lot like depression, to what can only be described as extreme paranoia. There was one person who alluded to an incident (I'm assuming sexual assault?) which made her feel unsafe having her photograph out there: severe anxiety and paranoia sounds like a perfectly normal reaction to a traumatic incident, and is exactly the type of reason why victims of abuse should seen counseling. But barring extreme circumstance, where counseling to move on and put your life back together is in order, I'm sorry but I just don't think that wanting to take a single nice photograph of your child is the least bit unreasonable. I've already suggested to OP that she take her daughter for counseling, and OP has said that she's looking into it.

The reasonal boundary is that it is her body and she doesn't have to put it on display for anyone at any time just because _someone else_ wants her too.

You may call it irrational, but for someone who doesn't like having their picture taken it is completely rational. Why should your inability to understand why someone doesn't want a picture taken trump someones desire to not be photographed?


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rachelsmama* 
You don't have to understand why it bothers some people so much, but the facts are:

-rational or not, some people do feel violated by unwanted photography
-children grow up to be adults, and as adults they have the right to associate with whoever they want, and tend to prefer people who make them feel good rather than people who make them feel violated and call them irrational.

If photos are your priority then I don't think anybody's going to call CPS on you for forcing your kids to sit in front of a camera, but there may be consequences when the kids grow up.

Honestly, if my adult children hold a life-long grudge because of the time I made them look halfway pleasant in a photo for grandma, they're probably not people I really want to hang out with. I'm being quite honest about that. I really hope to raise pleasant, rational, polite people who think of people besides themselves on occasion. I've worked with my fair share of adolescents, and I accept a certain level of attitude, snark, angst, and self-involvement as being developmentally normal. But sometimes it's time to buck up and do something for someone else. That's the way the cookie crumbles. I will be sorely, sorely disappointed in my parenting if I turn out an adult with such a complete lack of perspective, barring some sort of emotional or psychological issues.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Crystal_R* 
Forcing a child to be in a picture they don't want to be in makes it all about you as the parent. Your child refuses to do something b/c they loathe it, but you're the adult so your wishes are more valid then theirs? Why is grandma's desire to have a picture more valid that a teen's desire to not be in pictures?

Because sometimes it is expected to do something nice for someone else? I personally loathe doing the dishes, but I do them because my family doesn't like eating off of mold. I loathe my aunt, but send her a Christmas card every year. A 15 year old can manage a smile for grandma once a year.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Can I just say. It's getting a little tireing to hear that a teen that doesn't want their picture taken isn't thinking of others. Personally, I feel that those who insist a teen have their picture taken regardless isn't really thinking all that far beyond their own wants.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
I know, she's actually a very beautiful person. It was very confusing to me to grow up with her bad-mouthing herself so much.

OT for a sec but I think you should know that you just touched my








I have taken very few pictures of DS and I together because I just don't feel good about my weight right now. Normally, I love being in front of the camera.

But after reading your words to heck with it. When I'm gone I'm sure he'll appreciate having mementos of him and I in these early years of his life. So thank you!


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Latte Mama* 
OT for a sec but I think you should know that you just touched my








I have taken very few pictures of DS and I together because I just don't feel good about my weight right now. Normally, I love being in front of the camera.

But after reading your words to heck with it. When I'm gone I'm sure he'll appreciate having mementos of him and I in these early years of his life. So thank you!

Yay! Good for you! I'm sure he thinks you're totally beautiful and will be so glad to show them to his grandkids.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Crystal_R* 
Forcing a child to be in a picture they don't want to be in makes it all about you as the parent.

Know what? That's fine with me. I have three teenagers. I think it is perfectly fine for it to be all about me every now and then.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Then why can't it be all about them every now and then? What makes parents so special?


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Then why can't it be all about them every now and then? What makes parents so special?

Huh?

Was this for me?

I have three teenagers. It's ALWAYS about them. All the time.

So when I asked my three kids to wear red, green or white because my mom wanted a Christmas photo of all of her grandkids, I didn't feel the least bit bad about asking.

And they were all very cooperative. Which is a good thing - 'cause they need to cooperate with me. Had they not been willing - I would have suggested strongly that they cooperate. And there would have been consequences if they hadn't.

My mom didn't ask for much. My family of five, my sister's family of six, my mom and dad and grandmother all lined up Christmas Eve and memorialized the evening. My grandmother is 90 and mom wanted a photo of all of us with her. You think something was wrong with that?


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

See, when you say things like "'cause they need to cooperate with me" it makes me doubt that things are always about them. That doesn't come out of a mother who lets her teens get away with whatever they want because it's all about them.


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## amandaleigh37 (Jul 13, 2006)

nak, haven't read the thread but here's my $0.02:

I would drop it. I would not take her photo or try to coerce her into it. I think her trusting that her parents will respect her personal boundaries, at this age, is more important than the grandparents' desire for some photos.

Can you ask her for some ideas of how SHE can help you put together the scrapbook, or things to send to relatives instead of photos? Maybe a letter from her would likely be just as appreciated as a posed photo anyway.

Maybe if you let it go for a while, she will come around. But I suspect that the more you bring it up and harp on her about it, the more willful she will become in making sure it doesn't happen.


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## Jeannettea (Apr 2, 2006)

I couldn't read the OP's opening post and not respond. I haven't read all seven pages of responses, so if this is a repeat, please forgive me!

I have four children - 18 1/2 dd, 15 ds, 10 dd, and 3 ds.

Starting @ age 13, oldest dd wouldn't let me take her pic. Same thing as OP - a hand tossed up, head hung down so hair covered her face, GLARES (as in "if looks could kill") when I insisted and made her let me take a pic.

She came home for Christmas this year (she lives @ two hours away and attends college there) and she brought her bf. BTW - he proposed Christmas night, so now it's her fiance!!!







(we really like him!)

Anyway - I didn't have to ask. I fully expected the same response - but all I got were big smiles, pics of them hugging, smiling at the camera, etc. GREAT photos.

I don't know what changed. But I am sooooo happy it was just a phase.

Now ds 15..........well, he seems to have ENTERED it this Christmas....

So anyway - there is hope OP! It may just be a teenage phase.


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## Purple*Lotus (Nov 1, 2007)

I like the ideas others have given about letting her hide behind a book or do something that makes her feel more comfortable. If you talk to her openly maybe the two of you can agree on a compromise that respects her wishes and yours too.

My STBX was like this when he was a teenager, so once a year he would pose for a family photograph for his Mom. The rest of the year she would not bug him about it. It worked out well for them. He got over it eventually, and it does not seem to bother him that there aren't very many pictures of him compared to his brother. She is old enough to know that it is her choice, you know?

I hope you can work out a compromise


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

I'm Aspie-ish, too, FWIW. I hated having my photo taken as a teen. Mum recently made me a scrapbook (for my 21st... in fact, that was two years ago and it's still not completed!) and there are hardly any photos of me between about 12 and 18. Do I mind? Yes and no. If I could have those pages filled with laughing, candid shots in which I looked semi-decent and was engaged in a variety of activities which represented me... that'd be fabulous. But the few photos I _do_ have aren't like that. They're horribly unattractive - not just the kind of photos that are unattractive at the time but look OK a few years later, but the kind that still make you wince ten years down the track. Horrible. I have a horrible bushy fringe, bad skin, bad glasses (in some pics), and a variety of expressions ranging from the dimwitted to the manic. They do not bring me joy. They make me go "eugh". Would my life be enriched if my mother had forced me to pose for dozens more of the horrible things? No. I wouldn't have minded if she'd taken the odd candid photo and deleted it if I looked silly in it; but she never seemed to think of that.









I still can't smile naturally in photos (or in any situation, really!). Luckily with the advent of digital cameras and my family becoming more photo-savvy, we have the odd candid shot in which I look OK. But I still hate being forced into photos against my will, because I know the chances are very high that I'll look _stupid_ - not ugly necessarily, just ridiculous, with a weird twisted mouth or half-closed eyes. Who wants that?

I vote "she'll probably grow out of it, but whether or no, it's her body and her business". That doesn't mean you can't try for a compromise - say, an arty shot of her standing in an archway from behind, so you just see her hair and the shape of her coat, or a sepia photo of just her eyes peering over a book, or something similarly quirky. If she feels "safe" being photographed with sunglasses, so be it; just having her hands photographed, so be it; taking her own photos, alone, with a timer; or whatever. If not, please don't force her. It's her image, and her body, and her embarrassment. If grandparents are an issue, can't she write them a letter or something instead?


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## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

If I was to quote everything here, it'll be a freakishly long post, I basically agree with everything that MD said. He's a smart person.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Porcelain Interior* 
Wow this thread is like a mushroom! Very hard to keep up with it grew overnight.

Just a few comments from me the OP...

*I never said I don't have memories if I don't have photos, to the pp who said that, that's just a weird sort of thing to say. Believe it or not some people enjoy family photographs- especially years down the line when you hit generations that didn't get to meet older family members and want to put a face or a place to a family story. Not necessary, but still beautiful and worth saving.

*My daughter is possibly on the spectrum, and we're in the middle of counseling and trying to find out how to make her quality of life (anxiety/depression/introversion) better, or if she's actually happy and really does just want to be left alone. We're totally on top of this and making sure she's provided with an environment that's conducive to her personality and respectful of her choices as far as how she wants to live her life- while also trying to maintain family harmony. She's not in any way a brat. She does have a selfish bent, and she's very private. She's always been odd when compared to her peers. This probably is the root of her unhappiness, that she is not accepted. We've worked hard to meet her where she's at and to accentuate and celebrate her differences, not try and tamp down on them or change them.

The photo thing is just one of the pieces of the puzzle we've been "puzzled" over because it's not just about her.

Anyway this is a good discussion and ya'll can continue discussing it, I'll keep reading. I've already made my mind up though and will not push any photos for the time being.

Erica would cooperate at your dds age for a family photo that was to be sent to grandma because family was/is important to her. We just learned to take a good first picture because that was going to be the best take. She just couldn't hold it together for any more. And like your dd, Erica has issues. She was diagnosed with bipolar, social anxiety, and OCD in her twenties. When I look back at her childhood, I wish that she could've had help as a child. But, not only wasn't her condition recognized back in the 80s but there were no medication to help even it was. Like you, we did the best we knew how. Fortunately, Erica, today, says that she had the best family for her. Even if she didn't think so at the time.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I have removed several posts and am asking you all to please play nicely. Disagreeing with ideas is fine; personally attacking or taking issue with other members is not. If you persist, your post will removed.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Can I just say. It's getting a little tireing to hear that a teen that doesn't want their picture taken isn't thinking of others. Personally, I feel that those who insist a teen have their picture taken regardless isn't really thinking all that far beyond their own wants.

And it's entirely possible that the teen isn't thinking all that far beyond their own wants either. Today, Erica is very glad we "forced" her to have her picture taken with her grandpa before he died. He died when she was 14. Those few pictures of her and him are very precious to her today. We have very few pictures beyond the posed group shots taken at family gatherings. We have lots of her sisters and brother but very few of her in candid shots. We respected her desires as much as possible but were thinking long term as well as other family members' desires.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Latte Mama* 
OT for a sec but I think you should know that you just touched my








I have taken very few pictures of DS and I together because I just don't feel good about my weight right now. Normally, I love being in front of the camera.

But after reading your words to heck with it. When I'm gone I'm sure he'll appreciate having mementos of him and I in these early years of his life. So thank you!

Go for it. I'm about 40 pounds overweight and have been for all of Dylan's life. He is always telling me that he likes me that way--all squishy and comfortable to hug and cuddle with. He's not being snotty or snide, he's an 11 yo boy expressing his love for his mother.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Wow, I can really see it both ways. Really.

Though this (and one other similar comment on this thread) really stood out to me:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Porcelain Interior* 
She hates any attention being drawn to herself, she's an introvert and it's getting more pronounced the older she gets.

This seems really counterintutive to me, since she will get almost NO attention drawn to herself if she cooperated for the photo, but is getting TONS of attention when she doesn't. Tons. At the time of the incident. At the time the photos are printed. When the photos are distributed. When people look at them later. Tons and tons of attention. Not very good attention, of course, but tons of it. So this just really can't be what's going on.

I can also sympathize with the OP not only for wanting to ensure that her DD doesn't appear MIA from the family, but also with the pressure she likely is getting from relatives and friends about DD's presence of lack thereof in photos, and actions in the photos she's in. No doubt OP is the brunt of a fair amount of criticism from others who suggest she is an inadequate mother if her DD can't just suck it up and have a photo taken without a death glare. Whether it IS selfish or not to death-glare a photo, it certainly is taken that way by most people, especially older family members.

The above may sound like I'm firmly on the "suck it up, DD" side, but I see it her way too. Honestly, the world will go on just fine if she's not in a photo. And I really do believe that nobody has any unalienable RIGHT to photograph another person. I myself refrained from photographing Masai when I met some, just because I didn't feel I had the right to (other people in my travelling group did, and there were no objections, but I had read before that the Masai tended to prefer no photos).

Personally, I would be fully satisfied with one of those creative solutions that others alluded to. For example, if DD hid behind another person and merely raised her hand in the air for a picture, I would actually get a kick out of that. I wouldn't be as happy with a book in front of the face, though, that would draw all the attention onto her - but a hand waving in the background, that would just be amusing without being the entire photo. I could even see the photo being examined by future generations who learn that "grandma" or "great-auntie" refused to have her photo taken, and that's her hand there! And it would be warm and funny rather than being death-glare.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Hello,

I am a photgrapher and a journalist, and I have about 3000 pictures of our 21 month old DD already, so, I really feel your pain about not being able to take pictures of your daughter.

What about something really interesting and unique?

Do you have a film camera, a telephoto lens and an afternoon? Does she like doing anything outside? Feeding birds, tending flowers, walking the dog, etc?

Does she have a favourite character from a book, a period of dress, or a particular fashion?

While I am a photographer myself, I can understand her dislike of the staged smile-for-the-camera photos or the family group shots (I am not like this myself) but some artististic and sensitive folk feel as if their emotions are being assumed or taken for granted when asked to pose for a picture, and they LOATH having their photos sent to others. I would stop sending photos of her right away.

So, I would make a deal. She wears what ever she loves, you go outside, she does an activity that she would do ANYWAY, and you are well away from her, no flash, with a telephoto lens. You will be stunned by the beauty of the candid, natural shots in the true sunlight. They are real. You won't get dozens of perfect shots, but one would be worth it.

You won't get your standard Christmas/Birthday shots, but, you will still be able to document your beautiful daughter at this stage in her life.

I had great inner turmoil at 14 years of age. Make it her thing and try your best.

Trin.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
And it's entirely possible that the teen isn't thinking all that far beyond their own wants either. Today, Erica is very glad we "forced" her to have her picture taken with her grandpa before he died. He died when she was 14. Those few pictures of her and him are very precious to her today. We have very few pictures beyond the posed group shots taken at family gatherings. We have lots of her sisters and brother but very few of her in candid shots. We respected her desires as much as possible but were thinking long term as well as other family members' desires.

I just wanted to say that I can very much appreciate the sentiments of a BTDT mom with grown kids. Your perspective counts for a lot in my book!

ETA: I enjoy reading your posts for this very reason.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

just a quick note but people lived for most all of history without photos being taken of themselves and they survived just fine. i mean really, think about it. it's not the end of the world if grandma doesn't have a current photo, 150 years ago she wouldn't have even thought about it. heck, in most countries in the world she wouldn't think about it. it really is first-world privilege.

i think the op has the right idea with giving it a break on it and i respect her decision to honor her daughters wishes.

i also think that MD has totally the right take on this. a personal boundary is a personal boundary that you create for your own safety and well-being it has *nothing* to do with what someone else thinks is rational or okay.









the op has also not said that he daughter is being selfish or uncaring. there are plenty of ways for her dd to keep in touch with grandma, i'm sure a letter would actually be much more personal and enlightening than a photograph.

i challenge those folks that don't understand why a child should not be allowed to say no to think of something they don't like (anything that makes them uncomfortable) and imagine someone telling them they needed to do it for the good of the family and because someone else's needs were more important at that moment.

saying "no" means "no" and i think that trying to coerce any other result is really a bad precedent to set.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

No, I can't get on board with Playa's post at all. I take one good family photo every year at the holidays. If my children did not cooperate, all our families, friends and neighbors would be disappointed and I would be crushed. One child does not have the power in my family to so negatively affect so many others.

Having your picture taken is not harmful.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Quote:

Having your picture taken is not harmful.
Read the thread... it can be. Will it cause you physical damage? No (well, barring a freak tripod accident, I guess!), but numerous people on this thread have attested that it can cause psychological damage. Feeling violated, betrayed, shamed and embarrassed counts as "harm", wouldn't you say?

As for families, friends and neighbors, why not just explain the situation to them? "X isn't comfortable with being photographed right now; here's a photo of the rest of us". Hanging a photo on the wall of a child who didn't want to be in it, may cringe every time she sees it and was forced into posing for it is a rather odd way to show love. And being crushed that a mother is protecting her daughter's privacy and sense of autonomy is an _extremely_ bizarre reaction.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Maybe you could get your dd to do a Wilson from Home Improvement kind of thing, where she will pose with the family, but with only part of her face showing?


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smokering* 
Read the thread... it can be. Will it cause you physical damage? No (well, barring a freak tripod accident, I guess!), but numerous people on this thread have attested that it can cause psychological damage. Feeling violated, betrayed, shamed and embarrassed counts as "harm", wouldn't you say?

There is NO harm from a photo. There might be harm from what someone does with a photo. But there is absolutely no harm from the actual photo.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
There is NO harm from a photo. There might be harm from what someone does with a photo. But there is absolutely no harm from the actual photo.

and would you say there would be harm from a naked photo? is there harm caused by the actual taking of the photo?

what about muslim women that don't want to have anything more than their eyes be visible? would you acknowledge their right to that boundary?

or is it just because it wouldn't bother _you_ that you see there being no harm in it?


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *philomom* 
No, I can't get on board with Playa's post at all. I take one good family photo every year at the holidays. If my children did not cooperate, all our families, friends and neighbors would be *disappointed* and I would be *crushed*. One child _does not have the power_ in my family to so negatively affect so many others.

Having your picture taken is not harmful.

well, luckily you and your kids don't mind taking that photo.

i think the idea that this is a power-trip by the op's dd is an interesting one. i would never consider this to be about power and i'm wondering if you could elaborate on the power part of your post?

also, i bolded disappointed and crushed because those point precisely to the first-world privilege i was talking about. to me, and i'll admit, i'm not big on the photos though i have no problems with having them being taken, those seem like really strong words for something that really isn't that big of a deal.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

for context i should also add that in my chosen community the right to say no to a photo is inherent.

if anyone has been to burning man you know that all cameras have to be registered and if someone takes your photo without your permission you are supposed to report them.

so, it is a simple matter of respect in my world.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Quote:

There is NO harm from a photo. There might be harm from what someone does with a photo. But there is absolutely no harm from the actual photo.
What do you mean, the "actual photo"? Nobody here's implying that the 4 by 5 glossy will emit death rays. But _taking_ the photo, _distributing_ the photo and _displaying_ the photo can all cause an unwillingly photographed person humiliation, feelings of shame, betrayal and embarrassment.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PlayaMama* 
and would you say there would be harm from a naked photo? is there harm caused by the actual taking of the photo?

what about muslim women that don't want to have anything more than their eyes be visible? would you acknowledge their right to that boundary?

or is it just because it wouldn't bother _you_ that you see there being no harm in it?

Those are extreme examples that have nothing to do with this situation. I didn't realize that we had to enumerate all the "different" senarios on MDC.

I guess, there could also be harm in photos if someone's in the witness protection program.

But that's not what we are talking about.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smokering* 
What do you mean, the "actual photo"? Nobody here's implying that the 4 by 5 glossy will emit death rays. But _taking_ the photo, _distributing_ the photo and _displaying_ the photo can all cause an unwillingly photographed person humiliation, feelings of shame, betrayal and embarrassment.

Let's hope the OP's DD never gets arrested, especially as an adult. She'll have no choice about a photo then and it may well end up all over the internet on one of those "ugly mug shot" websites.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

okay, let's go with the muslim women one because that seems closest to me.

surely, there is no inherent _harm_ in someone of the opposite sex seeing your arms and legs, right?

so, it's basically a personal boundary dictated by what the woman is comfortable with.

the op's dd doesn't want her photo taken because she is uncomfortable with it, not because she's trying to ruin christmas or make her grandma cry.

she's really and truly uncomfortable. *does she have the right to not do something she is uncomfortable with?*


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Quote:

Let's hope the OP's DD never gets arrested, especially as an adult. She'll have no choice about a photo then and it may well end up all over the internet on one of those "ugly mug shot" websites.
...Yes...?


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PlayaMama* 
*does she have the right to not do something she is uncomfortable with?*

I don't think she has the right to prevent everyone around her from having pictures of her.

That's not reasonable.

It would be reasonable to put conditions on the photos. That's what my sister did. She required advanced notice with time and place to check how she looked and fix her hair. The OP's DD could put a limit on the number of photos taken or even saying only for big events like Christmas. Those things would show a willingness to work with the OP and the rest of the family. Those would be reasonable things to request.

But it is not reasonable to refuse or ruin all photos. That's extremely selfish behavior.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Quote:

I don't think she has the right to prevent everyone around her from having pictures of her.
Uh... WHY? I really don't get it. Should she also be forced to surrender her fingerprints, measurements, a lock of her hair and copies of all her school reports to everyone around her, should they deem them of sentimental worth? This is _her_ body, _her_ image. If she chooses to share it with other people, that's lovely, but I do not see how having photos of someone else is anything other than a privilege.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I don't think she has the right to prevent everyone around her from having pictures of her.

That's not reasonable.

It would be reasonable to put conditions on the photos. _That's what my sister did._ She required advanced notice with time and place to check how she looked and fix her hair. The OP's DD could put a limit on the number of photos taken or even saying only for big events like Christmas. Those things would show a willingness to work with the OP and the rest of the family. Those would be reasonable things to request.

But it is not reasonable to refuse or ruin all photos. That's extremely selfish behavior.

so, in other words, no? you do not feel it is reasonable for a 14 yo to set boundaries regarding something that makes her feel uncomfortable?

because your sister was able to work within this solution does not mean that everyone else will be okay with this compromise. i also think that there may be room for a compromise if it has been exhibited that boundaries will be respected.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I don't think she has the right to prevent everyone around her from having pictures of her.

That's not reasonable.

It would be reasonable to put conditions on the photos. That's what my sister did. She required advanced notice with time and place to check how she looked and fix her hair. The OP's DD could put a limit on the number of photos taken or even saying only for big events like Christmas. Those things would show a willingness to work with the OP and the rest of the family. Those would be reasonable things to request.

But it is not reasonable to refuse or ruin all photos. That's extremely selfish behavior.

Wow, so teens don't have the right privacy the same way an adult does? People sure don't have a right to your image if you're over 18, why would that be different for someone under 18?


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
Let's hope the OP's DD never gets arrested, especially as an adult. She'll have no choice about a photo then and it may well end up all over the internet on one of those "ugly mug shot" websites.

Huh? How this even remotely relevant to anything?

If you are arrested, your rights are curtailed. You have no control over your body. You can be strip searched if it's deemed necessary. Physical force may be used to subdue you if someone else determines it's necessary. Other people decide how much you have to pay to get out. You can't even go to the bathroom in privacy.

Please explain why what happens with police should apply to family life. It's a little scary to me that what happens when you're in police custody for allegedly committing a CRIME is compared to setting personal boundaries for yourself when they're not even remotely illegal.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Actually, could we please stick to the parenting aspect of this, since it's the Parenting forum, and maybe start a new thread for the rabbit trails? Thanks!


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Wow, so teens don't have the right privacy the same way an adult does? People sure don't have a right to your image if you're over 18, why would that be different for someone under 18?

Actually, there's a whole paparazzi industry built up around the fact that, no, you don't have much of a right to your own image as an adult, if it was taken in a place where you don't have any expectation of privacy. But I'm not sure what that has to do with this thread. (And, no, there's no expectation of privacy when the whole family is gathered around the tree and Mom has a camera.)

And, no, teens don't have the right to privacy the way that an adult does. Because they're not adults. They're children. They're not little children, and any reasonable parent will give them an appropriate level of freedom and a reasonable amount of free reign to make their own choices. But for many good reasons, teens are not considered adults. Not legally, not socially, not developmentally, not practically, not culturally.

If my teen feels so strongly that grandma cannot, under any circumstances, have a photograph of her, she's welcome to get a lawyer and become legally emancipated. Which would kind of suck for her, because life in my family is a pretty sweet deal, so far as these things go. Otherwise, I would expect her to either buck up and act like a member of the family while she's living under my roof, or to work with me to get whatever emotional issues she has treated.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
Actually, there's a whole paparazzi industry built up around the fact that, no, you don't have much of a right to your own image as an adult, if it was taken in a place where you don't have any expectation of privacy. But I'm not sure what that has to do with this thread. (And, no, there's no expectation of privacy when the whole family is gathered around the tree and Mom has a camera.)

And, no, teens don't have the right to privacy the way that an adult does. Because they're not adults. They're children. They're not little children, and any reasonable parent will give them an appropriate level of freedom and a reasonable amount of free reign to make their own choices. But for many good reasons, teens are not considered adults. Not legally, not socially, not developmentally, not practically, not culturally.

If my teen feels so strongly that grandma cannot, under any circumstances, have a photograph of her, she's welcome to get a lawyer and become legally emancipated. Which would kind of suck for her, because life in my family is a pretty sweet deal, so far as these things go. *Otherwise, I would expect her to either buck up and act like a member of the family while she's living under my roof, or to work with me to get whatever emotional issues she has treated.*

Not going to dwell on the celebrity issue since it's not on topic, except to say that its far more complex then "papprazzi take pictures of people, so there!"

To the bolded. First that is a very authoritarian approach, which is not something I believe in with anyone. Second, and I am saying this yet again, not wanting you picture taken doesn't equate emotional issues. All you can say for sure is that some who doesn't like getting their picture taken, just doesn't like getting their picture taken. Not everyone _wants_ to be in front of a camera, and everyone _does_ want to be able to set boundaries on their own body. It maybe your house, but it sure isn't your body or your image and not your final choice. You have no more control over your childs body then your husband has over your body.


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## mommy2maya (Jun 7, 2003)

My mil prefers not to be photographed, and mainly it is honored. I have a very very few pics of her holding various children, with her permission.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Latte Mama* 
I just wanted to say that I can very much appreciate the sentiments of a BTDT mom with grown kids. Your perspective counts for a lot in my book!

ETA: I enjoy reading your posts for this very reason.

Thank you.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
Honestly, if my adult children hold a life-long grudge because of the time I made them look halfway pleasant in a photo for grandma, they're probably not people I really want to hang out with. I'm being quite honest about that. I really hope to raise pleasant, rational, polite people who think of people besides themselves on occasion. I've worked with my fair share of adolescents, and I accept a certain level of attitude, snark, angst, and self-involvement as being developmentally normal. But sometimes it's time to buck up and do something for someone else. That's the way the cookie crumbles. I will be sorely, sorely disappointed in my parenting if I turn out an adult with such a complete lack of perspective, barring some sort of emotional or psychological issues.

It's interesting to me that some people take photos seriously enough to have all these strong feelings about the idea of not having them. It's also interesting that many of the people advocating forced participation are saying "what's the big deal, it's just a photo," yet clearly it _is_ a huge deal to those same people if the would-be participant's desires don't align with theirs. What _is_ the big deal?

I'm not that into photos, so if someone expressed a preference not to be in one that I was taking, I wouldn't even think much of it, let alone question their character. I can see how it'd be disappointing for several years to pass with one kid refusing to participate in all photos, but it wouldn't be the end of the world to me or cause me to question their moral fiber or label them as selfish/rude/emotionally disturbed. We don't take all that many pictures anyway, and our extended family appears to consider the ones we do occasionally send them a nice surprise, not an obligation that we don't fulfill often enough.


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

My MIL also does not like her picture taken. However, she is gracious and cooperative about it to a degree. She will allow her picture to be taken if she is given time to prepare for it before hand, and if you agree to delete any "bad" pictures of her, and still, then, only very few pictures. A couple for each vacation, a couple from Christmas. That's about it. She understands how important it is for the children to have SOME pictures of her and with her, though (especially since we know she may not be around much longer). IMO, this is the example of how a mature, gracious person handles a deep aversion to being photographed.


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## amma_mama (May 20, 2008)

While I agree that it is nice if the whole family cooperates for a special event (including a photo), if one person feels very uncomfortable with the idea, to the extent of the OP's DD, then I would find another way for us to celebrate or memorialize a family event. There are so many ways, other than a picture, to do that - a poem, a note to the family, a collage of images that represent your feelings, etc. Something from the heart that represents who that person is. For some, it is indeed a smiling photo, for others it is not.

I can't imagine how putting another family member in a painful or uncomfortable position in order to get a "perfect picture" would make anybody feel good in the end. Yes, the picture may look nice to outsiders, but what it represents is, well, not so very nice or thoughtful. What a sad testament to "family love".

I do not have many photos of myself between the ages of 15 and 19. I do not feel bad about that. That was who I was at that time and because I was permitted to be that person, and not violated by my parents, I have good feelings about myself and happy memories. I still do not like to have many photos of myself taken - it is just not something that I feel comfortable with at many times. When I feel like it, I do photos, when I do not feel like it, I do not. I am an otherwise well-adjusted adult - a good mom with a good marriage and good career. Right now my DD is quite the "ham" and loves to be photographed - some are hammy posed smiles, some are goofy, some are natural. Would I be sad if she did not want her photo taken? Yes, of course - I LOVE looking at all her photos. Is it worth to me to force the issue and cause her discomfort and resentment? NO WAY - her body, her image, her choice!

That said, if I felt that the refusal to take photographs was a manifestation of something deeper - depression, anxiety, etc. - I would focus my attention as a parent on the root issues to help my child feel good about themselves. Back to the OP, who alluded to potential issues, I would put the idea of photographs aside (and not even try to cajole her into a more "creative" approach to photos) and let my child know that I would support them no matter what and help them to heal themselves and get outside help if it was needed. That is not about photographs or not for grandma, that is about mental and emotional well-being which trumps everything else.


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
It's also interesting that many of the people advocating forced participation are saying "what's the big deal, it's just a photo," yet clearly it _is_ a huge deal to those same people if the would-be participant's desires don't align with theirs. What _is_ the big deal?

The "what's the big deal" is about the simple chore of sitting and smiling-- maybe even taking a little longer to prepare for photography if you feel more comfortable doing that. That's not a lot to ask of someone who doesn't have mental/emotional disabilities.

Having photos for memories IS a big deal to an awful lot of people.

OP, I know I felt really ugly when I was 13-15. My mom took me to get a haircut and it was awful and I felt even worse. None of my clothing looked good on me because I didn't know how to dress my newly changing body type and still look trendy. I was petite and a little bit chubby, so teen clothing just didn't fit me well. I SO wish someone had taken me in hand and given me a total makeover-- taught me how to dress, helped me choose a cute and functional wardrobe that fit and was flattering-- including shoes, helped me with a hairstyle and knowing how to care for it, and makeup. This might not apply to your daughter at all but if it does-- well it's an idea.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amma_mama* 
I can't imagine how putting another family member in a painful or uncomfortable position in order to get a "perfect picture" would make anybody feel good in the end. Yes, the picture may look nice to outsiders, but what it represents is, well, not so very nice or thoughtful. What a sad testament to "family love".


This is what it all boils down to, to me.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LionTigerBear* 
The "what's the big deal" is about the simple chore of sitting and smiling-- maybe even taking a little longer to prepare for photography if you feel more comfortable doing that. That's not a lot to ask of someone who doesn't have mental/emotional disabilities.

Having photos for memories IS a big deal to an awful lot of people.


So the feelings of the people who don't want to be photographed (and for whom it is a big deal to be forced to do it, whether you believe it or not) don't matter. The feelings of the people who want the photos do matter.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom* 
So the feelings of the people who don't want to be photographed (and for whom it is a big deal to be forced to do it, whether you believe it or not) don't matter. The feelings of the people who want the photos do matter.

Yeah, I just don't get it. I guess not really caring about pictures just makes me unable to understand how this could be a hill-to-die-on issue for some people.

Having photos just has never been a priority for me. Maybe this is partially influenced by the fact that I know someone who places a giant value on having the perfect photo, and spends her entire visits with my kids sticking a camera in their face, trying to get them to reenact cute moments, screeching at them to smile, etc., instead of creating meaningful memories with them. I err on the side of leaving the danged camera in its case and just experiencing moments, or maybe journalling about them later if I want to capture them (and, sure, sometimes snapping a photo, but only with willing participants). Maybe I err on that side too much, but in any case, photos just aren't a very important thing to me, so labelling a kid or forcing her to sit and give a fake smile just aren't things that would ever occur to me.

I like for photos to capture reality, and right now the reality for this girl is that she doesn't want to be in photos, or wants to hide her face if she is in photos. So, cool, there'll be a family record of that for people for whom that kind of thing is important.


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom* 
So the feelings of the people who don't want to be photographed (and for whom it is a big deal to be forced to do it, whether you believe it or not) don't matter. The feelings of the people who want the photos do matter.

Their feelings matter. Doing things you don't feel like doing (on an emotional, comfortable level) because you think they would be a good idea (on an intellectual level) is the mark of maturity. In a cooperative family, everyone bends a little and this builds strong relationships.

My example of my MIL, who hates being photographed, is a model of how this can work out. She hates being photographed, and we value her comfort--however, we also value having photographs of her. So she and I and everyone in the family bends a little. She allows a couple photos under her conditions, and we mostly point our cameras elsewhere. Life is going to be full of negotiations like this for every child/teen/adult-- one can't always get one's way-- and would they be happy if they could? Flexibility is key to having good relationships.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

It's not about "the perfect photo". Obviously there are people who can take things to extremes. That's not good in either direction.

It's not good to loose sight of the event because you are so focused on getting the perfect photo. And it's not good to be so focused on not being photographed because you are don't enjoy anything.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
It's not about "the perfect photo". Obviously there are people who can take things to extremes. That's not good in either direction.

It's not good to loose sight of the event because you are so focused on getting the perfect photo. And it's not good to be so focused on not being photographed because you are don't enjoy anything.

No, I know. I don't think anyone in this thread is ruining family events with their excessive photo taking, I was just giving an example of where my personal philosophy that photos aren't a big deal may have come from -- I vowed to never be that photo-obsessed, and may have gone rather far in the other direction, to the point where if LionTigerBear's MIL was my MIL, I probably just wouldn't have any photos of her, because her preference to not be photographed would be fine with me and I wouldn't see it as a mark of immaturity or an issue that required compromise. But I would have memories of her, and journal notes about the things we did together, and items that reminded me of her, etc., and that would be perfectly sufficient for me.


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

Interesting discussion.









I'm just chiming in to say I own one of 4 photographs of a very dear friend who died at a young age. Seriously, there are only 4 photos of him as an adult in existence. The one i have, his hair is covering his face...

Another friend of mine, hates to be photographed, but since he has been given an expiration date, he'll sit for a photo if he gets to veto.

Life is very short.


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## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

OMG!!!! Your signature!!! I've been QUOTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Blush


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I think people have a right to not have their pictures taken if they don't want their pictures taken. Other people's desire to have photos of them doesn't trump their own rights over what to do with themselves.


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seashells* 
OMG!!!! Your signature!!! I've been QUOTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Blush

Is this the first time you saw this?


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

I've only read the first page. I hate hate hate having pictures taken of me. I do not photograph well at all and I hate that that is the way I'll be remembered. But I do love pictures and I want there to be pictures of me with my kids when I'm gone.

Is there any compromise you two can come up with? You know, you don't always try to get a picture of her and she sits for a family photo a few times a year?


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## amma_mama (May 20, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LionTigerBear* 
The "*what's the big deal*" is about the simple chore of sitting and smiling-- maybe even taking a little longer to prepare for photography if you feel more comfortable doing that. That's not a lot to ask of someone who doesn't have mental/emotional disabilities.

Having photos for memories IS a big deal to an awful lot of people.

OP, I know I felt really ugly when I was 13-15. My mom took me to get a haircut and it was awful and I felt even worse. None of my clothing looked good on me because I didn't know how to dress my newly changing body type and still look trendy. I was petite and a little bit chubby, so teen clothing just didn't fit me well. I SO wish someone had taken me in hand and given me a total makeover-- taught me how to dress, helped me choose a cute and functional wardrobe that fit and was flattering-- including shoes, helped me with a hairstyle and knowing how to care for it, and makeup. This might not apply to your daughter at all but if it does-- well it's an idea.









For me, the "big deal" is what is *behind* the discomfort and addressing that, if necessary. Frankly, I think that not wanting to be photographed does not have to be for any "reason" other than the dislike of being photographed. However, if it is for other reasons that can or need to be addressed, then address them. If it somebody who feels "ugly" and needs help with self-esteem and/or simply hairstyling, then address the self-esteem issue and forget the photos for a while. If it is a symptom of depression, then deal with the depression and forget the photos for a while. But, again, if it is a well-adjusted person that just does not like to have their image "memorialized" and circulated, or just does not feel photogenic, then just repsect that and find another way to memorialize a special (or daily) event, perhaps by actually enjoying the event as family rather than stressing about having or not having a photo. My DD's "family portrait" drawings of us, "I luv mame and dade" cards, and warm hugs and kisses are as special to me as photographs (actually more so as they are FROM HER rather than imposed upon her). Again, I am sure that I would feel sad and disappointed if DD does not want to be photographed at some point, but I would rather spend that time to build a supportive and respectful relationship, which will have a positive and long-lasting impact on my DD's life and my life as her very proud mama - something that a photograph can NEVER achieve.


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## rockycrop (Jul 31, 2007)

I've only read half the thread, but I can say I relate to OP's daughter. I never minded having my picture taken, but I was definitely an angry young teenager (13-15 were pretty horrible years for me).
I think part being 14, and saying (as best you can) "I don't want my picture taken" is about control, and trying to establish it. I think it is best to give kids (who are _people_, regardless of whether or not we birthed and raised them) some slack and let them make some of their own decisions.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Quote:

The "what's the big deal" is about the simple chore of sitting and smiling-- maybe even taking a little longer to prepare for photography if you feel more comfortable doing that. That's not a lot to ask of someone who doesn't have mental/emotional disabilities.
No, it's not about sitting and smiling. As has been repeatedly said in this thread, it's about a LOT more than that. It's about knowing people you know and people you don't know will be looking at your image and possibly judging you on it. It's about feeling cornered and forced to perform. It's about the loss of control, personal violation, humiliation... it's about a lot of things. And if they don't apply to you, super, but that does NOT mean they don't apply to other people, or that they must be trivial.

Even though I'm mostly over my photophobia, I still find it slightly creepy when people I don't know say "Oh, your mum showed me your wedding photos". It makes me think, A, "Why would you care about seeing the photos of someone you don't know?", and B, "They're kind of personal, I'm not too comfortable with this". The sitting-and-smiling was over years ago, but the weird factor is still there. No, I'm not "suffering" for it, just mildly uncomfortable; but back in the day when I really hated having my photo taken, I would have been very disturbed to know people I didn't know were ogling my photos.


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## amma_mama (May 20, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
No, I know. I don't think anyone in this thread is ruining family events with their excessive photo taking, I was just giving an example of where my personal philosophy that photos aren't a big deal may have come from -- I vowed to never be that photo-obsessed, and may have gone rather far in the other direction, to the point where if LionTigerBear's MIL was my MIL, I probably just wouldn't have any photos of her, because her preference to not be photographed would be fine with me and I wouldn't see it as a mark of immaturity or an issue that required compromise. But I would have memories of her, and journal notes about the things we did together, and items that reminded me of her, etc., and that would be perfectly sufficient for me.










Better to enjoy the moment rather than worry about whether it is memorialized "properly" - there are so many alternatives to cherish and memorialize the moment.


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## HappilyEvrAfter (Apr 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiekisses* 
If I was to quote everything here, it'll be a freakishly long post, I basically agree with everything that MD said. He's a smart person.

Total ^5 to this!! I enjoy his posts.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
""I can't imagine how putting another family member in a painful or uncomfortable position in order to get a "perfect picture" would make anybody feel good in the end. Yes, the picture may look nice to outsiders, but what it represents is, well, not so very nice or thoughtful. What a sad testament to "family love".""

This is what it all boils down to, to me.

Yeah! That!!!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amma_mama* 
For me, the "big deal" is what is *behind* the discomfort and addressing that, if necessary. Frankly, I think that not wanting to be photographed does not have to be for any "reason" other than the dislike of being photographed. However, if it is for other reasons that can or need to be addressed, then address them. If it somebody who feels "ugly" and needs help with self-esteem and/or simply hairstyling, then address the self-esteem issue and forget the photos for a while. If it is a symptom of depression, then deal with the depression and forget the photos for a while. But, again, if it is a well-adjusted person that just does not like to have their image "memorialized" and circulated, or just does not feel photogenic, then just repsect that and find another way to memorialize a special (or daily) event, perhaps by actually enjoying the event as family rather than stressing about having or not having a photo. My DD's "family portrait" drawings of us, "I luv mame and dade" cards, and warm hugs and kisses are as special to me as photographs (actually more so as they are FROM HER rather than imposed upon her). Again, I am sure that I would feel sad and disappointed if DD does not want to be photographed at some point, but I would rather spend that time to build a supportive and respectful relationship, which will have a positive and long-lasting impact on my DD's life and my life as her very proud mama - something that a photograph can NEVER achieve.


And this too!!!

I abhor getting my picture being taken. I empathize with your daughter.

I agree that there might be reasons behind it, but until you find out what those reasons are (and can maybe get her past them) honor her wishes.
And even if she isn't able to get past having to have her picture taken (some of us never do) then that's her prerogative.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Totally off topic but....

Wee, people enjoy my posts! *does a little happy dance, no pictures please*


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Totally read most of the thread rather quickly, here are my thoughts:

Totally agree with BOTH sides







A) good to respect a person's right to say no, but I also think B) that it's okay to insist on some family pics.

I was the 'take my picture and die' teenager as well - and my mother totally insisted. I'm the oldest of five kids, and the truth is that I'm ecstatically happy she made me be in some pictures. We never had to do the cheesy smile thing, but I look back now and am so thankful for the memories. Even the scowling ones


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Totally off topic but....

Wee, people enjoy my posts! *does a little happy dance, no pictures please*

I often enjoy what you have to say, as well.


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## Purple*Lotus (Nov 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Totally off topic but....

Wee, people enjoy my posts! *does a little happy dance, no pictures please*

I have actually been meaning to tell you that if you were straight, I would totally be in love with you


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## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bunnyflakes* 
I have actually been meaning to tell you that if you were straight, I would totally be in love with you









You know, you can still be in love with him, even if he's gay. Totally possible. :nana


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Yeah, it just won't go anywhere.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Sooo, have you seen this website?

http://awkwardfamilyphotos.com/

Maybe she could end up there! Maybe you could show her this site, just to make her laugh. I know I always do.


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## boysmom2 (Jan 24, 2007)

I haven't read all of the replies, but I'm glad you're getting your daughter some help. I was very depressed off and on throughout my childhood and teenaged years and when I was at my lowest, the thought of having my picture taking was devastating. This may not be what's going on with your daughter, but that's what I thought of right away. Good luck, OP. Your dd is lucky to have such a kind, caring mom.


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## bender (Mar 23, 2007)

Just scrapbook with the bad pictures. Scrapbooks don't have to look like the demo ones in magazines. Even if they aren't perfect, they are still a representation of who your child is today.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bender* 
Just scrapbook with the bad pictures. Scrapbooks don't have to look like the demo ones in magazines. Even if they aren't perfect, they are still a representation of who your child is today.

But pictures *aren't* a representation of "who you are". They are an image of your physical being, yes. But smiles can be faked (my family's pictures were always literally perfect--but our life was absolute hell). Just because someone grimaces or doesn't like their picture taken--it doesn't mean that the grimace or hand is who they are either!!

I think that is what creeps me out about this whole thing.







People are acting like it's either vital to have photographs or they provide evidence of...I dunno what. Character? Happiness? But they don't.







Sometimes pictures can reflect reality, but that's not always the case.

The OP has said over and over that her daughter is a kind, non-bratty, good kid. Yet because she won't do pictures, people on this thread have been saying some pretty demeaning things about her or "people who don't like their photo taken". If she turns her head a way in a picture, that doesn't represent who she is--that's why the OP was sad about it, right? Because those pictures DON'T reflect who she is.

And if they don't, and the kiddo doesn't want them, is it really that horrible to grant her her wish and find more creative ways to keep a memory book?


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
I think that's a really unfair comparison.

I also disagree that no one has the right to take a photograph of someone else. Even besides the fact that there's a pretty strong legal precedence about the rights of photographers, I'm sorry but I do think it's a god-given parental right to take a picture of the kids at Christmas to send to Grandma. I guess we're just going to have to disagree.

Wow. A "god-given" parental right? On what do you base that religious theory?

I think it's amusing that after so many threads where strangers taking random photos of kids in public is presented as practically child molestation, now forced photography by parents is a god given right.


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## Alathia (Nov 18, 2005)

Wow, this was a highly interesting read! I'm a photographer, so I'm always taking pictures. If someone was truely uncomfortable with their picture being taken, I work around that. I agree with those who think that it's not a right to take pictures of your kids. Even though they are your kids, they have feelings as well, and telling them to suck it up and be uncomfortable would be a power struggle I would not do.

OP you seem to have come to a great decision regarding your DD. Since she is 14, I also agree with those that think it's a phase. If you stop pushing it, maybe she'll come around in a few more years. You could have the opposite problem with her taking a gazillion inappropriate pictures and plastering them all over her myspace or whatnot!









Some ideas for family pictures though - maybe do a cartoon drawing of the family? Or, take a family picture from the backside (all of you not looking at the camera, or just directly from your back). Or a reflection shot - all of you looking into a pond or something. Or a shot where you're all holding something to obscure faces - books, scarves, cameras, etc. That way it you're at least giving the person who doesn't want to be photographed some options where they're not forced to sit and smile and pretend. There's no set thing that states that family pictures have to be posed and forced upon people who really don't want their picture taken.

This year, since I couldn't get a decent family shot, our holiday card was individual pictures of all of us - including a crying one of my youngest since he wouldn't smile for the camera. I would rather have those picture depict his true nature than a fake smile.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Wow. A "god-given" parental right? On what do you base that religious theory?

I think it's amusing that after so many threads where strangers taking random photos of kids in public is presented as practically child molestation, now forced photography by parents is a god given right.

how did i miss the irony in that before? i think you're totes right.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Totally off topic but....

Wee, people enjoy my posts! *does a little happy dance, no pictures please*

must get the camera to memorialize this happy dance


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

I don't think any one has the right to take a picture of another person without their blessing. Being their parent or child doesn't change that.

My 13 year old much prefers to take photos than to be in them. She's learning to make her photos into other things and likes helping with the scrap book. There's no reason for this to be a power struggle.

My DD is fine with us snapping candid shots while she is doing something else. She is figuring out that some of the pictures come out OK, and some don't, and we can toss the one's she doesn't like.

We don't do posed photos at all and we don't include a family photo with Christmas cards. We used to when the kids were little, but it just seems funky to me know. If that's important to you, let HER take the photo. Give her some power and respect.


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## tireesix (Apr 27, 2006)

I hate my photo being taken, DH hates his photo being taken, there are very few photos of me or DH with the children and my family hates it but its stiff biccies.

If one of my children turn out the same then so be it.

My desire for a photograph is less important than their desire to not be photographed, despite my cruddy memory, I have every day with them and even if I don't, I know how I feel about them, I don't need a photo to remember the things that are so ingrained in me, my personality, the way sleeping without my babies feels so weird and the feeling when I have them right next to me.

I have no right to anybodies image.

As for them feeling unloved later because there are no photos of them, photos do not prove love and she will remember how she decided not to have photos. In fact, I suspect she will remember more love because you decided to respect her wishes rather than the displeasure at being pressured to be in a photo.

If it is about control as you say it is, then I would suggest you find out why she feels she needs this control, it seems to be a much better way of approaching the situation rather than forcing her.

ETA: Also, for those who think you should just force her and/or that if she turned round when she is older and wanted nothing to do with you because if your lack of respect for her body.......... I was forced to dress up for photos and to have photos and I despised it, absolutely despised it and guess what, out of all of them I only have a kinda ok relationship with 2 of them (my step mum and dad) because they finally decided to just let go and respect me for WHO I AM (kinda, I still get crap for vegetarianism).

To my gran, I said in the end at the age of 23 (finally) 'I AM NOT your doll to dress up and do with as you please, I am a PERSON'.

I said the same thing to my mum. My mum cont being an a hole about it and we no longer speak, in fact I have no contact with that side of the family.

My gran at least kinda stopped and we kinda kept on good terms til she died.

I have zillions of photos of my kids but I filter through them all really carefully until I find the really good ones and only those will do and they have to be good.

I send family photos of my girls but it is on the understanding that the photos are for them only, I don't mind them showing the odd the person but I do not want what happened to me, happening to my children, I was treated as a thing and being pretty (which I supposedly was back then, long legged, blonde, blue eyed, athletic) made it ten times worse 'but your so pretyy', so what, because I am pretty I should just like to be photographed????????? What you look like shouldn't matter, its your feelings that count.

I have no photos of my dead brother, don't need them, in fact, we don't have any photos of any of my family, we don't need them.

My step son despises his photo being taken, he will on occasion allow it (he is 13 BTW) and it doesn't bother me because is his right to not want photos. It might be nice to have photos of him with the girls but it is not essential.

In fact, thinking about it, DH, DSS and I are very much into photography, we prefer to be on the other end side of the camera.


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