# Tired of nursing to sleep



## ima062002 (Mar 23, 2004)

Ds is 7 months now and he won't go to sleep without me nursing him till he does so. We co-sleep, but we put the kids in bed before our bedtime. Dd will go to sleep around 9ish (has been a drawn out process lately, but I have no problem with being firm with her, after all she is 31 months old).

Ds now goes to sleep in the guestroom and we move him to our bed once we are ready. Eventually I'd like him to go to sleep with dd (and move to their own bed when he is around 1ish), but every time we try (and she'd love it too) he just cries for me... Also, the last few nights he started to not only nurse to sleep but keeps nibbling on me forever. This is aggravating my nipples (and me too !). If I take him off, he wails. But he is certainly done nursing. It's like I have become his live pacifier...

Now, did any of you wean your babies from having to be nursed to sleep? What worked? Today I nursed him but took him off when he was just using me as his pacifier (won't take a paci btw) and he cried. I stayed there hugging him, stroking his back and he cried bitterly for what seemed an eternity, but must have been about 5-10 minutes before falling asleep. I don't consider that CIO, since I am there. He knows he is not being abandoned. But still, I have a VERY hard time listing to his cries.

Just wanted to hear if there are tricks I don't know about. I gave him a cloth diaper to keep his hands busy (which seemed to help a bit), but other than that I don't know what to do.

Thx,


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Sorry- don't have much to say but I agree it is hard. I am also still nursing to sleep at 10 months. I am working on rolling him onto his stomach as soon as he is nearly asleep. Sometimes it works, sometimes I just go back and do it again. We are still nursing 5-6x a night. He has never really slept for more than 2-3 hours at best. All I can say- this too shall past. This is what babies can be like. Sorry it is so hard right now.


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## ima062002 (Mar 23, 2004)

Oh I don't mind him nursing during the night (except for the most recent nibbling with no end). At 7 mo I am not going to try to night-wean him. I just mind that initial going to sleep, since now that is a drawn out process, with him nibbling on me. And I really would like to start having dd and ds go to sleep together and us joining them a little later.


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## tribalmax (Oct 10, 2004)

Hello,

I should preface this by saying that I have not entirely solved this dilemma myself yet -- but we have seen some improvement -- so I will share that and hope it helps you.

My little one is almost 7 months old. She has to be nursed to sleep -- for naps and bedtime. We co-sleep too. What I am trying to do is give her another sleep association. I would imagine that asking a baby who has learned to go to sleep while nursing to go to sleep without nursing would be somewhat like asking us to go to sleep without a pillow. It is going to take time and patience.

I have started rubbing/petting her head while I am nursing her in the hopes that she will associate this with sleep and in time I can put her to sleep by rubbing her head only.

As I said, we have made some progress. I can comfort her throughout the night most of the time by doing this rather than nursing. We are also seeing that she is quicker to stay asleep and not have my nipple in her mouth.

I don't think it matters what you do, just that you start to give your little one a new sleep association -- and then gently start removing the breastfeeding until the babe can go to sleep with the new thing only. I would also make sure this is something that you and your partner can do...so that eventually you can share this...

Anyway, I hope that helps...


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Although holding him while he is crying may not technically be CIO, I believe that if you know what he wants, nursing, and you are withholding it, that's not any better than CIO, especially when you are the one holding him. Babies can smell the milk and no the difference between their mama who nurses them and anyone else. So he knows the breast is there and that you are just not giving it to him. I think it's normal for a 7 month old to want to nurse to sleep and I don't see a problem with that. I believe that the child will learn to fall asleep other ways when he is ready.

I know how difficult it can be to nurse baby to sleep all the time. I went through the same thing you are going through at about the same age. I was tired of it. I was tired of always having to lie down with him at night to get him to go to sleep. I was tired of having to go back to him as often as every 30 minutes to get him back to sleep. I was tired of being the only one who could do this. I don't even have the option of having someone else try to get him to sleep because my dh has been gone since July. When my dh was here he was able to get ds to sleep when the nursing wasn't working. I got past it. For me it was a matter of my own mindset and unrealistic expectations. Once I could get my mind over feeling inconvenienced I was fine with nursing him to sleep again.

Have you considered any causes for this new nibbling and pacifying himself? Maybe he's teething or going through a growth spurt or tackling a new developmental milestone. I don't have any advice on how to get things so that you don't have to nurse him to sleep. All I can say is that this too shall pass and I'd just let it be what it is for now.


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

There is more to breastfeeding than the milk. Even if he's no longer hungry, at seven months he still *needs* to nurse, a lot. And, if you want to keep up a good milk supply and continue breastfeeding without difficulties, it would be best to nurse him whenever he needs it, no matter what the reason is.

I think this link sums up my answers to all of your questions:http://www.kellymom.com/parenting/sl...rtnursing.html

Quote:

Many moms feel guilty for nursing their baby to sleep. Nursing your baby to sleep is not a bad thing to do! It's very normal and developmentally appropriate for babies to nurse to sleep and to wake 1-3 times during the night for the first year or so. Some babies don't do this, but they are the exception, not the rule. Many children, if given the choice, prefer to nurse to sleep through the second year and beyond. Nursing is obviously designed to comfort baby and to help baby sleep, and I've never seen a convincing reason why mothers shouldn't use this wonderful "tool" that we've been given.

...

Comfort nursing is normal. If baby were not comfort nursing he would need to be sucking on his hands or on a pacifier. The breast was the first pacifier and the one that all others are modeled after, so don't be afraid to allow baby to use it in this way. There are studies that show that comfort nursing is healthy for your child, too. All babies need to suck - some more than others. It ensures that they survive. If your baby seems to be comfort nursing *all the time* and this is more than you can handle, keep in mind that this will probably ease some as time goes by.
If my baby were crying, and all she needed to calm down is to nurse, I would nurse her rather than letting her cry. Crying in arms happens when a baby is inconsolable, not when mom is ignoring baby's need to nurse. Especially a baby as young as yours, not nursing him when he needs to nurse is sending him mixed messages.


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## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

My dd did this also, as at 7 months she had nearly 8 teeth!!!!!!She wasn't a biter at night, persay, but as she drifted off she would draw her tongue back and clamp her jaws a bit. this would quickly jerk me out of my sleep and i would gasp, which would rouse her just enough to either latch back on right or let her chin rest on it. which was very cute, by the way!!








She however did bite me alot after 7 months, once severely . But not at night. If you can get him off and soothe him another way, he'll figure it out. Its notlike you are leaving him, and i don't see that as being traumatic. Hope this helps!


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

I just remembered something that helped me, that just might help you, too. When my oldest would drift off to sleep with my nipple in her mouth, then her latch would slide down my nipple and she'd bite the tip of it to keep it in her mouth... anyway, what I would do when she first started comfort nursing is to gently squeeze my breast and compress some milk into her mouth. Either she would sputter and unlatch, or she'd wake up and start nursing nutritively again. But you have to catch it early, before the biting happens. HTH!


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## tribalmax (Oct 10, 2004)

Quote:

Although holding him while he is crying may not technically be CIO, I believe that if you know what he wants, nursing, and you are withholding it, that's not any better than CIO, especially when you are the one holding him.
I don't think I agree with this. Check out this article that was in last year's Mothering.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...2/ai_112352791

I think that sometimes babies learn to fall asleep while nursing. And this does not necessarily mean that it is a "need". If from day one they had fallen asleep another way, that would be the strong sleep association.

Now don't get me wrong, we nurse whenever my little one wants to. And I believe strongly in comfort nursing and that there is more to breastfeeding than just getting milk. But I am trying to help her learn another way of falling asleep. I don't want to entirely replace nursing to sleep, but I would like to help her learn another option. I don't let her cry when I know that she wants to nurse. But instead we are gently pairing another stimulus with falling asleep. The hope is that eventually, having her head petted will be as comforting as nursing -- and will be another way for her to fall asleep. I think that helping your child learn more than one way of falling asleep is healthy.

And again, I don't think I could ever let her cry when nursing would make her happy. But I don't think there is anything wrong with gently and lovingly working with your baby to find a better solution that meets everyone's needs. But the article above does have an interesting way of looking at crying. I think it is valuable to read.

I think this is working for us -- all of us. DH is loving the fact that he can start comforting DD whereas before all she wanted was to nurse.

I am pretty new here, and I don't want to ruffle too many feathers. But it seems to me that many people here speak out really strongly against anything that involves shaping or changing a baby's behavior to better meet the needs of the mom (and dad). I am not advocating Babywise, CIO or sleep training (I could never do this to my little one), but I do think that there is a middle line between doing these things and sacrificing everything so that your baby gets exactly what they want when they want it at the cost of sleep and sanity. IMO, that middle line is gently and lovingly shaping your baby's behaviors so that everyone in the family is getting their needs met. And I believe that you can still be an AP mom and do this.

Sorry for my rant and I hope I didn't offend anyone...


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## ima062002 (Mar 23, 2004)

MarineWife -

I should have written more carefully. I nursed him until he was only nibbling on me (and not drawing any more milk) and then I took him off and held/stroked him to sleep while he did cry. He wanted me as his paci. I offered him a real pacifier but he just hates those.

I would never deny my son milk.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ima062002*
He wanted me as his paci.

I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I, personally, would much rather soothe my baby myself than give him an artificial sucker so I say let him use you as a paci. I don't think I said you were withholding milk and I certainly didn't mean to imply that. I'm sorry if that's how it seemed. I said you were withholding the breast and nursing, which is much more than just breastfeeding.

I don't necessarily see anything wrong with giving baby a pacifier for those times when you cannot nurse baby, such as when driving. I tried this but my baby wouldn't take one either. I also don't think there is anything wrong with having Dad or another caregiver help baby get to sleep as long as it doesn't involve withholding nursing from baby. My dh would bounce our ds on an exercise ball to help him go to sleep when nursing wasn't working. I encouraged this because I wanted my dh to be able to soothe our baby and because I thought it would help him bond with our baby. However, we never did that instead of nursing. That is a big thing to me. I don't believe you should ever withhold nursing from a baby.

Tribalmax, Here is a quote from that article with emphasis added by me.

"Although it is stressful for babies to cry alone, there is no evidence that crying in a parent's arras [sic] is harmful, *once all immediate needs are met*."

I consider baby wanting to nurse, even when you think he's not hungry, is an immediate need that should be met by allowing baby nurse. If you come to a point where baby doesn't want to nurse and you've checked everything else you can think of that might make baby cry, then absolutely hold and rock and pat and soothe baby any way you can while he cries. But if you know what is making baby cry, such as wanting to nurse as is the OP's case, and you withhold nursing but continue to hold baby while he cries that is not helping baby while he releases stress by crying. Baby is crying because he wants to nurse not because of some unknown reason that you as a parent cannot figure out.


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

I







MarineWife.

That was a wonderfully articulate post.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eminer*
I







MarineWife.

Be careful what you say, eminer.







You haven't seen some of my other posts.







:


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

I just have to say that I would love my baby to peacefully fall asleep at the breast while drinking or comfort sucking. The alternative may be my situation. My baby only goes back to sleep at the breast in the middle of the night. It just took me an hour to get him to sleep without nursing. He squirmed, fussed and played. I finally nursed him hoping belond all hope that he would fall asleep at the breast but alas, he turned over and continued the antics for another at least 10 min or more before he finally conked out.
I don't mean to be rude but please try to be thankful for what you've got. Enjoy the little one now. They really do grow up so fast. He is only 7 months old. I don't understand why you want to night wean now or are thinking about moving DC to sleep together. I want DS to sleep with the dog or another sibling at some point too but not until he is at least 18 mo. or 24 mo.
I personally will not wean DS from night nursing if at all especial since I am WOHM.


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tribalmax*
I think that sometimes babies learn to fall asleep while nursing. And this does not necessarily mean that it is a "need". If from day one they had fallen asleep another way, that would be the strong sleep association.

Except it isn't an accident that this is the way they learn -- it's not just another random sleep association among numerous possibilities. You have to intervene by removing the breast before a newborn unlatches in order to prevent him/her from learning to fall asleep nursing. It is adaptive for various reasons. Babies spend more than half their time sleeping, and they need to suckle a lot. Night nursing (specifically in the wee hours) suppresses fertility and increases/maintains supply more efficiently than daytime nursing. Frequent nursing in general is healthier for the breasts and tummy, and protective of the nursing relationship. Studies have shown that physical contact is very important to infant well-being and development. Some of us would say that infants *need* dramatically more physical contact than they usually get in our culture. The ecology of night nursing helps assure them of this physical contact during, again, more than half the hours of a day. (And the motive for decreasing night nursing in an infant is very often to diminish physical contact.)

This is not to say that sleep training (including NCSS or "re-association") is not best for some families, or that frequent night nursing and nursing to sleep are irreplaceable needs for all infants. (In fact, in some situations, these things are impossible.) BUT IMO, it is a reason to try lots of other solutions -- including maybe biting the bullet through a developmental/teething stage, trying to adjust your own sleep habits, etc. -- before concluding that the problem is that your baby "has learned to use you as a pacifier." (When you are, after all, the Archetypal Pacifier.







)


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
Be careful what you say, eminer.







You haven't seen some of my other posts.







:

You mean they aren't all that articulate? Oh, well, I







you unconditionally. :LOL


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## sleepless-in-texas (Dec 1, 2004)

My daughter is 1 year old and has just started comfort nursing. She wakes up about every 45 minutes - 1 hour all night long. But she has 3 teeth coming in. So I am waiting it out with lots of patience. (But she has had sleep issues for a long time.)

One thing that I just started that seems to be helping is encouraging her to form other positive sleep associations. Like a "lovey" (sp?). She has a small pink bunny that she clasps by the ears. I have begun to make sure Bunny is with us whenever we nap and at night. (Well, she naps while nursing, I work on my laptop, immobile). She went to sleep tonight in 10 minutes on my lap!!!!!!! Wow - is there a light at the end of the tunnel? Then I laid her on the floor on a futon and I'm FREE to get stuff done (quietly of course). I return to the futon when she wakes up and it only takes about 5 minutes to get her back to sleep. Then I can sneak out again. I keep her there because she can't roll off and get hurt like she might on the bed. (She joins us in bed when we finally go several hours later.)

I can very much relate to your frustration. But I think in the long run our kids will be very secure and independent because we did invest this time in them when they were so small and helpless. I bet as teenagers they will be less likely to get in trouble and more likely to feel they can turn to us. It's a good bond. Hang in there! It's very tough and you're not alone.


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

Tribalmax, thanks for posting that link. I couldn't find that article on the Mothering website anymore.

It is a really good article! It's all about holding your crying baby and why that is important. IT IS NOT about CIO-in-arms, though. If you are not responding to your baby's needs, and baby is crying, it makes little difference if baby is in your arms or laying all alone in a crib. All baby knows is that he isn't getting whatever it is that he *NEEDS* and is being trained/conditioned to not ask for it anymore. Babies really do NEED to comfort nurse, some more than others. Sleep-training a seven month old, and/or nightweaning a baby that young, can cause some serious problems with trust and also perhaps breastfeeding difficulties that ultimitely lead to low milk supply and premature weaning.

surely we can come up with some more suggestions for this Mama to try instead? Ima, did you try the breast compressions I suggested? Did it work? What else have you tried? If it's teething or something like that, it is just a stage and will pass really soon. The emotional damage caused by CIO is not so short-lived. If it's a growth spurt, even the comfort nursing will increase your supply, making the constant nursing much shorter-lived.


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## Rox5266 (Nov 26, 2004)

I know what you mean about dc nursing and nibbling. My ds is 17 months old and did this to get to sleep. But he has always had other sleep associations, and sometimes nursing/comfort nursing does not work to get him to sleep. I have to walk him to sleep, and either sing or play his lullaby cd to get him to sleep. When he is not teething (which is rare, LOL) I can get him to sleep by singing and rubbing his back. He has other sleep associations since birth, and needs them because I am a WOHM and my mom and dh share daycare duty and they obviously can't nurse him down for his naps!

NCSS has some great techniques to help the all night nurser. I used the "pantley pull off" technique, and had no crying from ds. He just learned to pull off, roll over and go to sleep. He was never denied the breast, but I no longer had the trepidation of him waking and whining when I tried to unlatch him - cause he would unlatch himself! But he still has a hard time when new teeth come in sometimes and wants to nurse completely to sleep so I let him. I slip the nipple out when he is soundly asleep.

I believe you can develop other positive, nuturing sleep associations without crying or making the baby feel the breast is being withheld. But I don't plan to night wean yet, but might try to if ds is still waking and nursing through the night after he has all his baby teeth in (2 more to go than the 2 year molars and we're done-whew!)

Good luck!

Roxanne
Daniel 8/9/03 "I'm 17 months old today!"


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## my2girlsmama (Oct 21, 2004)

I wanted to say I found Marinewife's post to be articulate but a bit harsh on the mom who is struggling. She is frustrated and needn't be told she is witholding from her child when in fact she is simply frustrated and tired etc. Adding to her stress won't aid in this situation.

My babe is nearly 10 months old. Still exclusively BF, no signs of even wanting to try more solids, though I do try every now and then. She comfort nurses all the time. SOmeone said it really well here (sorry I forget who) that once you get your head around it all and stop feeling like it is taking away from you and keep in mind it will pass soon, it suddenly isn't an issue. I find myself now as a second time mom to a babe who nurses so much calmer and even offering the breast even more for comfort...LOL. We also nurse to sleep, and that is simply how it is and what she wants. My older child who is now 5 nursed past 2 yrs old, self weaned. I easily got angry back then and frustrated at comfort nursing or nursing to sleep...we even did slight CIO when she hit 14 months as I was sooooooooooooooo sleep deprived do to hourly waking and nursing (hadn't caight on to long term co sleeping then so I was literally up all night). It worked then but I was soft with her and gentle and she simply needed to learn to self soothe/settle and she did so...and I didn't NOT meet her needs either.

You do what works. Can you just try and get through it day by day for now....and maybe try some rocking first prior to nursing OR nurse to filling then rocking? My babe now I find gets fed up with eating once full and alseep and literally yanks herself off the breast but still needs hugging or cuddling tight to fall hard asleep.................

Just my 2c.


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## kchoffmann (Aug 16, 2004)

I just want to give some support to the OP. It is obvious there are a range of opinions on this board, and that most of those opinions fall in the range of AP. However, when someone comes looking for support, shouldn't we try to support them by giving what they ask for (in this case, suggestions?) A few of you have done so, including stafl and tribalmax, whose ideas were really thoughtful and, yet, really different in scope. I'll bet this was really helpful for the OP. But a few other posts were simply judging the OP's choices. It's helpful, I think, to have an open discussion about different ideas, but shouldn't we keep the focus on supporting the OP's needs rather than on our opinions?


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## tribalmax (Oct 10, 2004)

You know, I am SO happy that you posted this. I was starting to think that I was the only one who was feeling uncomfortable with the tone of this thread (not to mention several others). I really think that before we post anything, we need to ask ourselves if the post will support and uplift the OP. Isn't that what we are here for? That does not mean we can't have differences of opinions, but I think we can express those differences in a way that is supportive.

I have to say that I felt very judged and criticized for my posts. And I wasn't even asking for advice or opinions about my choices -- just sharing that info with the OP because she had asked.

How I choose to parent is a very emotionally charged issue for me (and I imagine for others as well). AP is a large umbrella for lots of personal choices about parenting. I just hope we can support each other in these differences and discuss things in a way that women feel positive about their experiences here.

Rachel


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Ummm...This is an AP website. I think that telling the OP that nursing her baby is Ok is support. It is possible to support a person without agreeing with or supporting what they are doing. If someone comes on here and brings up a topic that I am interested in, I will respond honestly. If I don't answer for fear that I might hurt someone's feelings because I disagree with what they are doing, then what's the point in having a message board in the first place? I never called her names or said she was mean or deliberately trying to hurt her baby. I don't think this is the case or else she wouldn't be here asking for help.

I would not go to a mainstream board and post a question like this and then get upset if someone told me that letting him nurse to sleep was wrong and I should just let him CIO. That is what would be expected there.


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## Quillian (Mar 1, 2003)

To the op I can understand your discomfort with the nibble stage. I agree that the Pantley pull off can be helpful. I would crowd ds a bit when he was obviously asleep but latched and he would unlatch himself-If I had used my finger to break the latch he would wake and the process would begin again. While I can understand the support the poster opinion theory I think one should feel free to be honest and not have to refrain from posting if it may counter the op beliefs/actions kwim. Support may mean hearing things that make you question yourself-if all one received was platitudes how could you trust the responses?JMO


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## kchoffmann (Aug 16, 2004)

I just re-read the posts here, and I'm not sure anymore what I was reacting to. I think I'm having a feeling-judged-about-my-parenting-choices, and I was projecting it onto the posters. Yikes. I'm glad you felt supported by me tribalmax and it got you saying something about your feelings, but the truth is, I realize I agree with the PP who said posting honestly and with all our many opinions is more useful than censoring ourselves to save feelings. That IS what a message board is all about. Sorry for starting something, and nevermind!


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## jacksmama (Sep 19, 2003)

Patricia: I stumble along at this parenting thing doing the best I can. For the most part life seems to be good, but there are days when I'm hanging on for dear life simply trying to get us all through to the next minute in one piece. So I can't dispense advice per se or tell you what exact action is considered CIO. What I can tell you is how my ds behaves. He is 18 months and still nurses all the time at night. My experience is that I want ds to be at peace. And I go hour by hour as to what that is. To be perfectly honest, I am not one of those mamas who lie in bed next to my co-sleeping babe in bliss that he's chomping on my boob for the last 1/2 hour, for the 5th time, at 3 am. But, for whatever reason, this is what he does and I just go with it. A lot of times it doesn't bother me and I'm full of love that I can nurture and comfort ds with nursing, but sometimes I feel like a used up, tired old dishrag and I wish he would just go to SLEEP!!! For my ds, 7 mos would have been much too early for us to try and slow down nursing. I did try once - for 2 nights - when ds was 14 mos, to cut down on night nursing. It was disastrous. I told him No several times and I rubbed his back while he cried. What happened was that he became super anxious about nursing and every time he wanted to nurse instead of just waking and letting me know he wanted to nurse - he would scream and become unglued. I believe because he didn't really know if I was going to give it to him. It took me a week to get him to stop screaming for bf'ing. It made dh and I sad and on the 2nd night we were like, "What are we doing? This isn't easier or better for any of us!" BUT now that he's older we're just getting to the point where I can talk to him - like the other night - he had nursed and nursed on both sides and I was sooo tired and getting sore. He popped off asleep only to wake up 10 minutes later. I felt like I had nothing in me, milk wise or patience wise. So I kissed him all over his cheek and said, "No. No more." He started to cry and was angry. I whispered to him, really close to his face and he stopped crying. I promised that later on I would give him bubbys but that right now I needed to rest to make more bug juice for my little bug (that's what I call him). And you know what? He listened!!!! He snuggled into me and went right off to sleep, without crying or any upset. I think he trusts me when I say later - that later actually comes. I think an important aside to this is that I am a SAHM and as such I have the luxury of sleeping late or napping with ds throughout the day. If I worked, to be honest, I don't think I would be physically able to have ds nurse as much as he does all night. Hang in there...I always tell myself that he'll only be this little once and soon I'll be missing him being this close!


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

My baby is only 8 months, but "YES!" to everything jacksmama just said! It's SO normal for baby this age to nurse to sleep. I think there are things you can do to change it, but they should be done _gently_, not all at once. Imagine, you are a smoker who requires a cigarette after every meal and "one last one" to relax you before bed every night. Suddenly one day someone tells you, "No more cigarettes - at all." Don't you think you'd feel pretty crappy about it? Now I understand cigarettes are bad for you and nursing is good, but I'm just trying to equate it with something an adult can understand. Your son's desire to nurse to sleep is just as strong as a smoker's desire to have a cigarette - so _of course_ he's going to cry if you make him quit cold turkey. And while he may not feel abandoned, because you did hold him in your arms, feeling denied the one thing you crave most in the world is not much better, hence the crying. Plus, babies equate _nursing_ with _nurturing_, so if you won't nurse him and you haven't given him a suitable alternative, he most likely feels that you are refusing to nurture him.

That being said, I completely understand your desire not to have to nurse him to sleep every night and from what I hear, there are several alternatives that are more gentle than watching him cry himself to sleep. I haven't read NCSS, but apparently she recommends creating a new sleep association. A PP said she was starting to rub her DC's head while nursing to sleep, so that eventually her DC would associate the head rub with sleep, instead of the nursing. Another thing I know you can do is start giving baby a "lovey" to hold while you're nursing. If he won't hold it, drape it over your arm or over his body, so it's touching him while he's nursing. The idea is that eventually you will be able to nurse him, then give him the lovey and put him to bed, because he will have learned to associate the lovey with sleep. The thing is, either of these things would obviously take time. I don't know how long, but I imagine several weeks at the very least.

I hope that is the kind of information you're looking for, but I also want to say one more thing. For good or bad, you and your DS arrived at this point as a partnership and you need to leave it in the same way. It isn't fair to him for you to suddenly make a unilateral decision that it is going to end. It is much more fair to him for you to encourage him in the direction that you want to go so that you can change this situation as a partnership and he can continue to know that his needs and wants are important to you.


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## mamalex (Mar 2, 2004)

I KNOW this is different from some of your beliefs, but these are all just beliefs! What has worked for us and made since is to think about our baby's needs before I just automatically stick my breast in his mouth. Yes, I did that for the first 5 months, but sometimes I felt like it wasn't my breast he really wanted/needed. Sometimes when I feel like crying, I want my dh to hold me and just let me cry. I don't want him shushing me and trying to pacify me with something else. Babies do not have words with which to express their frustrations, and they ALL have frustrations: learning to crawl, dealing with telephones ringing, absorbing tons of info, etc. They can only cry to let off steam. If we continuously send them the message that we are uncomfortable hearing them cry, then what is the long-term effect? I absolutely love nursing my little boy, and I do not want to wean him anytime soon (night weaning included,) but allowing him to cry has changed our lives. It is a very different cry when they know you are there to listen and you aren't frantic to try to console them...at least it was for our little one. And, we don't rely on nursing to try to induce sleep. Read that article or read Aletha Solter's Aware Baby book. It doesn't have all the answers, but it definitely looks at crying in a different way. Again, this is what works for US. Follow your own intuition.


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## kchoffmann (Aug 16, 2004)

I'm completely with you, mamalex.


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## Quillian (Mar 1, 2003)

Correct me if I'm wrong but Aletha Solter believes in scream therapy right? If a baby is crying because they are angry,frustrated,confused etc..because one is not understanding their request ie to nurse, thats quite different than crying in arms as a tension release due to over stimulation,traumatic birth etc..I think one should be clear and call a spade a spade...crying during a weaning process is not a cleansing release for a baby. JMO


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## kchoffmann (Aug 16, 2004)

No, but I don't think that's what mamalex was talking about. Or at least that's not what I was talking about when I agreed with her (for the record, I don't know anything about this Aletha Solter's ideas). I was agreeing with the idea that it can be counterproductive to rush in to nurse a baby every time s/he cries or need comfort. Babies, like all people, need to be allowed to have their feelings without being shushed all the time. It is too easy to send the message that we're not comfortable with unhappy feelings and they must be rocked, shushed, bounced, nursed away.

And I was agreeing that it makes sense to notice what your baby is really crying about before rushing in to nurse away the tears. My own baby used to cry in the middle of the night because he was tired and wanted to fall back asleep. Picking him up (he was in a crib at this point) and nursing him only woke him up further and frustrated him further. So I pat him, rubbed his back, etc. to help him learn to fall back asleep.

I was agreeing because these ideas aren't very popular on this board, but are steeped in the same loving source.


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## mamalex (Mar 2, 2004)

Yes, kerry, I agree completely. Aletha Solter's ideas are interesting and not completely off the mark, in my opinion. I didn't understand her to advocate "scream therapy," but that may just be because our ds didn't "scream" when I tried her techniques. What we usually do in our house is to nurse within an hour of going to bed, and then someone puts the baby to sleep (lately dh) without nursing. If he wakes again- usually a couple of times before we come to bed, I cuddle him, and he immediately settles back down. In the middle of the night, I nurse him every 3-4 hours. If I find he is waking a whole lot, I force myself to wake up and figure out what is going on. Sometimes he's teething and needs some hyland's, sometimes he needs to pee, and sometimes he needs to be held by one of us and allow to cry a little (around a minute.) Once we help him get his needs met, he feels better and will sleep the rest of the night. Note: a lot of night waking has to do with the need to pee- not to nurse. Check out the elimination communication boards.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

To the OP. A little suggestion that worked for me. It may sound strange so I'll try to word it right. My babe's bothe went through phases like you've described. I swear they could nibble all night but still had suction so if I tried to pull away they would startle awake. What I figured out with my second was this:
I would go and nurse him while sitting beside the bed on a chair or something. He would nurse away and then enter the almost asleep nibbling phase, practically with one eye open just *waiting* for me to try to leave. I would make it kind of uncomfortable for him at this point.
Try kissing his cheeks, it can work. For a while, every time I kissed my son, he would pull off and fall into his sleep. (Of course this only worked when he was finished nursing but nibbling). Or making it so his head is resting on the hard part of your forearm and a little away from your body. It's kind of uncomfortable for you too but often would work with baby to make him pull off so he didn't have to work anymore to keep the nipple in.
If you're lying with him, the kissing thing worked for me as well as slowly pulling away and turning my body so it was work for him to stay latched.
Just some suggestions I stumbled upon with my babies. Best of luck. Also, if all else fails, remember that this will not go on forever. Spoil him rotten as long as you can now and worry about setting limits when he will understand what they mean. That time will come before you know it.


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## awnja (Sep 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jacksmama*
Pat BUT now that he's older we're just getting to the point where I can talk to him - like the other night - he had nursed and nursed on both sides and I was sooo tired and getting sore. He popped off asleep only to wake up 10 minutes later. I felt like I had nothing in me, milk wise or patience wise. So I kissed him all over his cheek and said, "No. No more." He started to cry and was angry. I whispered to him, really close to his face and he stopped crying. I promised that later on I would give him bubbys but that right now I needed to rest to make more bug juice for my little bug (that's what I call him). And you know what? He listened!!!! He snuggled into me and went right off to sleep, without crying or any upset. I think he trusts me when I say later - that later actually comes.

That's such a beautiful story. What a great nursing partnership. I hope I am as good at saying no in such a loving way when my own bug is that age. It's perfect!

For the record, I have denied my baby the boob and she's only 9 mo. (almost.) If she's bouncing her mouth on my collar bone (she asks this way) while I'm in line at the grocery store, she has to wait. If she's lingering on my nipple for a half hour, half asleep and I HAVE to pee, she gets popped off. Its a partnership! I put her needs before mine and don't expect her to have any concern for my wants, but I also know that it won't kill her to be uncomfortable or unsatisfied on occasion. If that were the case, I'd be stuck at the store because she rarely likes getting back into the car seat.

If you just can't stand the nibbling, I took the advice from an other mama here, doing a pull off that doesn't involve breaking the seal w/ my finger; that wakes her. I just pull, or squeeze myself as I pull. If she wants back on I let her, but keep pulling off as she drifts off and eventually she quits looking for it. Now I can slip off pretty easily. She of course wakes all the time, but that doesn't bug me as much as that nibbling. I don't like to be the only one awake, ya know?

julie


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## mainegirl (Jul 13, 2004)

I would be interested to know what some of you think about older babies needing to be nursed to sleep. My son is nearly 18 months old and I don't mind nursing him to sleep at all, only now he won't let go and he bites when he nods off with my nipple in his mouth. If I get him to sleep (snoring, limp) and try to detach him so I can get up he'll immediate wake and thrash around to wake himself up fully and wail until I give him the breast.

Some nights he swaps back and forth between breasts every thirty seconds...it's maddening and I'm certain neither of us are sleeping well. If I try sleeping tilted so he can't lay down and nurse at the same time to encourage him to unlatch and go to sleep, he climbs on top of me (usually by kicking me in the face) or I wake up with a horrendously sore back. Any time I've tried telling him "It's nighttime and time to sleep" or otherwise refuse him the breast he throws a tantrum.

I am miserable. Continually sleep deprived, the sleep I do get is awful due to being woken up suddenly from being bitten or back soreness (which resolves itself after being up 10 minutes or so), and my nipples hurt so much sometimes that it's painful to sleep on my stomach or let the water from the shower hit them. If refusing my child the breast and holding him when he cries is as cruel as CIO, well, what about me? I feel like I'm being tortured! I don't want to resent my son's desire to nurse but it's getting to that point now that I haven't slept a full night in a year and a half.

I look forward to reading your responses.

- Jen


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

Jen,

First of all, I want to say that there are times when you have no real choice but to refuse or limit the breast, and IMO that is not the same as CIO, or CIA in a pattern similar to CIO. (I'll spare you a paragraph of explanation, but if this seems irrational to you and you'd like me to clarify, I can.)

Second, your ds's age makes a difference. Not because he "doesn't really need it" anymore, but because toddlers nurse differently, develop and change habits differently, and can communicate differently. But at 18 months, it's still possible that he's teething or something that will go away on its own. If he hasn't been doing this for too long, it might be easier and less traumatic for you to wait and see.

If that's not working, I would imagine that you'd have to figure out, based on your experience of the pattern, what your limit is going to have to be, and how best to communicate this to your ds and help him through it. There is no need to be consistent -- much better to be honest and communicative. The goal is not to teach him, but to help him deal with the natural limit to what you are able to do. He in turn will (not necessarily deliberately) communicate with you and let you know how to help him, what mutually acceptable alternative might solve the problem, etc. Choose the most liberal limit you can handle, supplementing with creative adjustments of your own where you can. (For example, is there some way you could combat the sleep deprivation and sore back at a certain level of nursing, or if he nursed in a certain way?)

Anecdotal to explain what I mean: The second time I had to do this with my dd, she was 2.5 and I was pregnant and sore/irritable w/o milk. After the duration of nursing I could take, I told her I had to stop nursing now because my nipples hurt and we needed to go to sleep together on our tummies. (I would also sometimes warn her ahead that this would need to be a "quick nurse" -- a phrase she had come up with previously.) If she didn't want that, we offered other alternatives, but just kept reasserting that I needed a nursing break because my nipples hurt. A few times, randomly distributed through the first few days, she cried. She was sad because she was half asleep (this whole thing involved her having to wake up enough to get what I was saying) and therefore having a really primal urge to just have unfettered access! I felt sad too, and I told her so. Both dh and I offered hugs, sympathy, etc. I continued nursing her whenever I could. (In fact, if it seemed really super important and needed, I sometimes relented and nursed a little more, while clenching things. That generally helped her to accept stopping. This is what I mean about non-consistency: I didn't worry that this would confuse her or that she would learn to affect acting like it was really super important because I had rewarded it. And she didn't.) But she ended up mostly nightweaned anyway, since at that age the combination of dried-up milk and having established an alternate going-to-sleep routine was enough to sink her already minimal night nursing.

That's highly verbal Grace, who had already shown signs of having reached a natural age for being able to handle gentle nightweaning. When she was about 14 months, still pre-verbal Grace who could barely handle the delay between lifting my shirt and latching on, I had gotten a nasty nipple infection and had to space nursings. (Not really on a schedule, but because it hurt so bad after awhile that I was fighting not to throw her off -- and of course at that age this was despite extremely high motivation to keep her on, because the consequences of taking her off hurt almost as much. She was still a very frequent and devoted nurser.) Communication was a lot harder, and the best way seemed to be to give her to dh and let him do it, because as soon as she saw me, her extremely intense feelings were refreshed. It was obvious that I was denying her a very real, high-priority need at that point. (I don't mean to indicate that I regret it, however. I had no choice. But it really sucked.)

I hope that if you decide to do something with your ds, your experience will be more like my first one. I think I know what you mean with the biting upon falling asleep. Dd did that but fortunately was older and at a later stage of nursing, so it was not as much of a struggle after I delatched her (by sticking my finger in her mouth and sometimes vocalizing. LOUDLY. :LOL). I think her body/psyche sort of forgot she was nursing at some point and decided it was time to clench her teeth. And of course because she was unconscious and not controlling the biting at all it was quite hard. OUCH. When she woke up and complained I would explain to her what was going on. (Again, easy to suggest when I was doing it with a 2-year-old, may not work at 18 months.)

Hope this lengthy free association has been at least slightly helpful to you. (Of course, that presupposes that you're still reading... :LOL)


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## mainegirl (Jul 13, 2004)

I did read all of it, with interest, and I appreciate your thoughtful insights as they were helpful.

It's really hard, I consider my husband and I to be AP parents, but it's difficult to feel like you're doing the right thing when wanting nothing more than to sleep on the couch for a little peace.

I guess I started to get some vibes from this thread that letting my child cry (ha, 'letting', that's a good one...like I could stop him!) AT ALL was being cruel or letting him CIO. I definitely feel that a baby of perhaps 12 months or younger needs all the nursing and milk and bonding that night nursing provides, but once the child is old enough where it's apparent he's crying out of anger and frustration at being denied what he wants it's a totally different story. I also know my son and I know when he truly needs something and when he is just ticked off and blowing a gasket over it.

I try to talk to my son at every opportunity to find out what he wants and needs, and have found him to be very communicative. Yet of course there are those who tell me "DON'T try to negotiate with a baby. You need to show them that there are limits." Yet if I tell him no and explain why, then he cries for an hour while trying to squirm out of my or my husband's arms someone else would say "If the baby wants to nurse and you are denying him, it's no better than letting him CIO." YET, if I give in and let him chew on my poor boobs all night I'm "spoiling" him. In the end the result is the same: I am miserable!

I love my son dearly and love our relationship, this sleeping thing is really the only obstacle in an otherwise blissful love affair. Of course not getting enough sleep is enough to taint everything else in my waking hours and I find myself more irritable, cranky, and whiny...just like my son.

I read these boards and other AP-supportive groups/magazines/books and can't help feeling a little bit of warm fuzzy "Yeah, that's what I think!" but a whole lot of slimy cold "Man, I'm just not good enough." I don't know if it's because our decisions to parent instinctually are so railed against in today's world, but AP mamas tend to be very defensive and sometimes result in beig judgmental of everyone, including other AP mamas when in reality we're all just trying to do the best we know how. Something that really bothered me here in particular was one poster talking about spanking and instead of people here trying to teach her why it's not a good option, they all just said, "We don't talk about that here, goodbye!" and banned her. The sad thing about that is that person's child(ren) are still suffering and the AP community did nothing to help them.

Sooooo...my rambling point is just that I don't think parenting is a bunch of absolutes, every kid is different, and I have a hard time asking advice from the folks who I would hope would offer me the most support. It's a good idea to keep in mind that when giving advice you don't know the exact situation and it's not fair to judge someone or make judgmental comments because there is always an exception to the rule.

...and if you think this rant is directed at you, well then it probably is







I actually don't have anyone in mind, it's just a reaction to what I've been reading on these boards lately.

I am an AP mom. I co-sleep, breastfeed, cloth diaper, no-circ, wear a sling, eat organic home-made food, I don't know...add all the appropriate buzzwords here. I also work full-time and my son goes to daycare. Does this make me any worse of a mother? I don't think so. But it is why I lurk a lot more than I post.


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

I'm sorry to hear that you were getting negative vibes from this thread. It seems to be a very negative-vibes kind of thread, for some reason. CIO and spanking (since you also mentioned it) are subjects many of us feel strongly about, and it can be hard to find the language to express these strong opinions honestly but kindly, and hard to hear even kindly worded strong opinions without feeling somewhat defensive if you disagree. (Since after all, someone is referring to something you do as harmful.)

Quote:

I definitely feel that a baby of perhaps 12 months or younger needs all the nursing and milk and bonding that night nursing provides, but once the child is old enough where it's apparent he's crying out of anger and frustration at being denied what he wants it's a totally different story. I also know my son and I know when he truly needs something and when he is just ticked off and blowing a gasket over it.
With my dd as with myself and other adults, this distinction has not been as easy for me to make. In the middle of the night, I know it can be quite difficult to distinguish my own wants and needs. So I try to take as generous, mutualistic an approach as possible with both myself and dd, considering both needs and wants of both of us, our relative ability to cope, and how I can make it easier without it feeling like it's at someone's expense (hers or mine). I am in total agreement with what you said further down: Every kid is different. There is no magic cut-off age where night nursing suddenly becomes a "mere want" for all kids. This is why I regularly argue that Dr. Jay Gordon's nightweaning method, as stated by him (vs. as practiced by any particular mother, who might be receptive to listening to her dc), is akin to CIO. I'm aware that someone can be an AP mom (obviously!) and a caring mom and still choose to do it. When I explain what about it strikes me as disrespectful and potentially harmful, this isn't intended as a judgment on any person.

It is a real struggle to be in a close relationship with anyone and remain honest and wholehearted. On some level, you just know deep down whether what you are doing is right for you and your dc or not, and when you know, you can disregard all the theorizing. But on another level, I also find it helpful to constantly hear (and give myself) reminders of the need to find my center, breathe in/out, avoid falling into some of the adversarial patterns that come like a kneejerk from my own childhood. To hear different perspectives -- and open discussion of them -- so that perhaps having a broader view of the possibilities, I will be freer to find the right decision. On a good day, that is what happens here.

Quote:

I also work full-time and my son goes to daycare. Does this make me any worse of a mother? I don't think so. But it is why I lurk a lot more than I post.








I'm sorry to hear that too (that it's why you don't post much, not that you work! ). You must have a valuable perspective to offer on many issues affected by that experience.


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