# used to feel homebirth was best... but not anymore



## pannacotta (Jul 25, 2006)

i realize what i'm about to say is against the mdc prevailing thought .. and i have great respect for mdc and learned more here than anywhere else, been supported more here than anywhere else. i've wanted to post for months but always chickened out because i'm sure someone will get angry and i don't feel strong enough right now after what happened. but i think it's important that i say this. it might save a life.

all my life - well since 14 when i saw my first h/b - i've thought h/b is the way to go, avoiding all the bad things that can happen in hospitals, the cascade of interventions, the fights over 'it's our policy do do this and that' and so on.

so when i was pregnant i devoured ina may's books, michael odent, websites on homebirth, practised hypnobirthing, planned to use water and tubs in labor, read everything about relaxation, normal course of labor, complications, scientific studies on safety and so on (i'm married to a doc,) found a midwife i thought i gelled with - a very experienced woman for sure. paid out of pocket for her services as my insurance wouldn't cover it. i felt with every inch of my body that i did not want interventions and that i wanted to be left alone to find my own rhythm of birth, without being told 'you must do this or that, it's been X hours, yadayada' i also strongly strongly felt i did not want any drugs in my baby and as you know, labor drugs pass the placenta and we don't know the long term effects of this.

so this is what happened and why i don't feel having a baby outside a hospital is worth the risk if you want to have the best chance to go home alive and with a healthy baby..BUT hear me out and read why and what i think the solution is.. until we have a third choice.

i had a completely normal pregnancy. labor started with one intense excruciating contraction that went on and on, then stopped for a few minutes then started again. i was in terrible pain, couldn't speak, tried to crawl to the shower, hypnotherapy didn't work, nothing did. i was 1cm dil. i said i had to go to the hospital as i felt something was wrong. the m/w said i was acting as though i had the pain of transition. but i was 1cm.

we went to the hospital, a 15 min car ride, and to cut a long story short i had an epidural shortly after as morphine didn't work. pain was off the charts. yes i know older studies suggested early epidurals increase the chance of c section. newer studies have refuted this.

the rest of labor was uneventful, apart from me feeling a bit of a failure. after 24 hours of so of labor, eventually had pitocin because stalled at 4, a well placed epidural that allowed me to walk around so i could try to make him descend. no progression. eventually talk of c section as the baby's heart was slowing periodically (yes a known cause of pit augmentation but that could not have caused what happened next.. so don't jump at me 

c section, baby was apgar 9/9 and in excellent health and weight

as soon as he was out i started hemorrhaging. badly. within seconds. the docs were not tugging on the placenta, (i.e. they didn't cause it.. my husband was watching) but the blood was gushing out from around where the placenta was and the plac was partly stuck too deeply and partly coming off in chunks as they watched. i lost 4 (i think) liters of blood (some of the stuff they put in me came right out) had many units of tranfused blood and other assorted stuff, by a miracle they saved the uterus (ask me how if you're interested), i passed out from lack of blood (bp was something like 50/30 at one point) for a few secs. this bleeding happened in the space of 5 minutes immediately after birth, all from where the placenta was attached.

i was taken to the ICU and didn't see my son till day 2 - though i'm happy to report that breastfeeding was great when i started and it continued till he was a year. no probs with that at all. i had further transfusions and was sent home after a week. my diagnosis was formally 'placenta accreta', meaning the placenta was embedded too deeply into the uterus. (necessarily a clinical diagnosis i.e. from what they saw and what happened, as i still had my uterus so they could not slice that up to look at the structure of it. however the placental side strongly suggested accreta because of cellular abnormalities and other things (ask if interested)

most women lose their uterus with this, about 10-20% die (check the stats, i'm doing this from memory). you can lose most of the blood in your body in 5-10 minutes. so it was a blessing that i was in an OR when this happened and that i had insisted on going to the hospital. i can't claim great foresight.. i just felt that labors do not start with excruciating pain at 1cm dilation.

i was VERY lucky. i am very lucky to be alive. i can say with all honesty that if he had been born at home i would likely be dead because of how quickly i lost so much blood. accreta is happening more and more as women have more c sections and thus have more scar tissue where the placenta can dig in too deep, but i'd never had a c section.

my point is this.. there are some obstetric emergencies that can kill you wherever you are but you stand a much better chance in the hospital. one of these is accreta, another is amniotic fluid embolism (the biggest killer of women in birth. i had a mild form of this too), another is a ruptured uterus (yes you have warning sometimes that this is happening, but sometimes it's sudden and the baby would die before you were able to get to the hospital.) and that's not to mention sudden problems with the baby that can happen.

these things are RARE, very rare, incredibly rare (i think accreta is something like 1/60,000 births) BUT if you are in a hospital you have a greater chance of living and to my mind it's just not worth the risk to stay home.

in the complications i listed above there's sadly nothing you can do at a homebirth - manually compressing the uterus to stop bleeding would not have stopped it in my case (the docs had the whole uterus in their hands and squeezing like crazy.. nothing..), in the case of amniotic fluid embolism you need massive interventions, will prob go into cardiac arrest in seconds and even in a hospital some 60-70% of women die. it happens randomly, no way of knowing if it'll be you.

now, having said that.. i think what is lacking in most cities is a 'third way', a place run by midwives (san francisco had st lukes'..futon on floor, candles, tubs etc) in a hospital but allowing a homebirth birth with all the best that a midwife can provide, the emotional support, handholding, experience with normal births and so on, BUT with emergency life support measures in the building if needed in those rare rare cases. (but it could be you remember)

so where does that leave most women who don't want to sign up for a medicalized birth in a hospital yet have nowhere else to do this but home.

i think for now.. until there are more 'homebirth in hospital' type places, the safest choice is hospital BUT i believe it's also the responsibility of every woman to prepare herself by reading and studying and asking questions about all the things a hospital will want to do and how you can refuse those you don't think are necessary, and by having a doula or support person who can be firm about what you want and don't want, thus allowing you to focus on birthing as naturally as you can.

we don't need to choose the hospital and just throw up our hands and be helpless and feel that the process is out of our hands. it isn't - WE are still in control and making decisions, or at least we should be.

i think we should spend more time learning and thinking about birth than choosing a car.. yet it seems the opposite at times.

i think if hospitals weren't so pushy with routine things, if they provided more choice in the things that can make a difference between a relaxed, happy mom managing her own birth and a woman who is 'delivered of a baby' as the victorians used to say, then we wouldn't see the high c section rates and all the birth interventions that are often neither necessary nor helpful. (i suspect liability fears are at the base of many interventions.. you'll get sued for not doing something but not for doing it) but there's no reason we have to have any of these things done to us.

there's no real reason why midwives shouldn't work in hospitals as they would in a woman's home, why hospitals shouldn't have all the things that make for a good safe birth. i believe that birth is a natural, normal event and that is should be supported by people who know the natural event best - midwives - but that the safety net should be there, just as you probably would choose to use safety measures in any other activity in life, if they were available.

well i'm an idealist and i also know that birth is a business.. it costs more to have more nurses looking after a women 1:1 rather than one nurse at the nurses' station monitoring contractions of 15 women via electronic fetal monitoring. sure - and that's probably why my ideal solution isn't happening in many places. BUT we can get as close as possible by bringing in our own doula and/or midwife who does give us 1:1 care and knows what to look out for and knows the type of encouragement we need. we can do this. we can also visit hospitals in advance and know the layout, ask questions, decide if hosp A or B is best, lobby for this 'third choice' when talking with our Obs or with the hospital authorities themselves. it's a business remember, so they would hopefully respond to market demand 

we can say no to routine interventions we believe are unnecessary, but we have to be informed, know what we are saying no to and realize that life is fragile and it is, in my opinion, not worth risking the life of one mother when such a risk is not necessary.

a mom.


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## Lovemy3babies (Apr 23, 2007)

Im sorry you had a bad experience. If you look at the statistics of wonderful experiences with homebirth though, your far outnumbered. Homebirth in a normal, healhty pregnancy is as safe as a hospital birth. Generally people know they have accreta before they give birth, as it usually poses problems before hand.

I dont wanna be mean, but unfortnatly I dont think your going to get alot of lovey posts out of this. Homebirth should be an option, it is a very good, safe option in most cases. That is up to every women to decide, and we have all heard the horror stories, and still stick by our choices.


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## pannacotta (Jul 25, 2006)

i just wanted to correct one thing you say. accreta is *not* diagnosable before delivery in most cases. you may ask your doctor about this. MRI can detect some very obvious cases.

in the case of sudden rare emergencies, home birth is riskier than hospital birth, i don't think that's up for discussion. i'm not disputing that hospital interventions *cause* many complications, but that's another topic

and of course each woman has the right to decide what level of risk she is comfortable with. my post was my opinion, not telling people what i think is best for them.

peace


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## Lovemy3babies (Apr 23, 2007)

Its a rare case when it is riskier, even for me, after 2 csections, I feel it is safer at home







For thousands of years women had babies at home.

Symptoms of Placental Abruption
The symptoms of placental abruption include:

vaginal bleeding in the third trimester
uterine pain or tenderness
abdominal pain


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## JesseMomme (Apr 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lovemy3babies* 
I dont wanna be mean, but unfortnatly I dont think your going to get alot of lovey posts out of this. Homebirth should be an option, it is a very good, safe option in most cases. That is up to every women to decide, and we have all heard the horror stories, and still stick by our choices.









:

First I do want to say that I am sorry for your experience. My first birth was traumatic as well, I do empathize with you.

The way I see it, you listened to your gut, and that's a very valuable thing. You felt something was very wrong, insisted that there was something not right, and went to the hospital. I haven't met any women who would do otherwise. Your point is moot, IMO.

Your ideal, while I wish existed so women would have more choice, isn't reality. I "fought" for a good second hospital birth, did all of my "birth planning" and didn't get it. They fought me back, all the way through my post partum hours. I was on medicaid, and too poor to even think of hiring a doula.

Now I'm looking forward to my third homebirth.


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## SaveTheWild (Mar 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lovemy3babies* 
Its a rare case when it is riskier, even for me, after 2 csections, I feel it is safer at home







For thousands of years women had babies at home.

Symptoms of Placental Abruption
The symptoms of placental abruption include:

vaginal bleeding in the third trimester
uterine pain or tenderness
abdominal pain

Not jumping into the dialogue (I had a homebirth and will again)... but just to make sure folks are on the same page... Placental abruption is not the same as placental accreta (sp?) which is where the placenta actually grows into/through the uterus itself, rather than "latching on" to the inside. Not reasonably diagnosable beforehand.

my med student friend saw a few of these in her ob/gyn rotation, and they ain't pretty....


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## kaylee18 (Dec 25, 2005)

Abruption is different from accreta. In fact, they're almost opposites, since abruption is a separation and accreta is an abnormal attachment.

Studies show that for low-risk women, mortality rates are _not_ reduced with hospital birth compared to home birth.

A feeling of intuition by the mom that the hospital is where she needs to go, is commonly regarded here as the best of all reasons for her to decide not to stay at home in labor, and is also seen as a critical component of the safety of homebirth. Many of us here would say that your story illustrates why planning a homebirth is safe, not why it is unsafe.


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## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

I applaud your bravery and your honesty. It is important for people to know exactly what the risks of home birth are, and I'm glad that you're here and unafraid to tell us your experience, which must have been such a trial for you. We are all lucky that you're still here!!









Anyway, you are right. You do stand a better chance of surviving these things in hospitals. Hospitals have the ability cure more problems than they cause. There are many reasons to avoid the hospital, too, though.

There is too much of a mentality around that if you can't give birth at home then you are a failure, which simply isn't true. If you transfer to the hospital I believe that makes you a sensible and responsible and excellent person to make that kind of decision for your health! There are many reasons why people avoid the hospital, though, and you cannot discount those reasons.

I don't believe that births should start in the hospital. Many are safer to end there, but they all should begin at home. My motto is not "trust birth" but "give birth a chance!"









Until that euphoric third choice exists, women must choose one side or the other. Many different factors affect the safety of birth, I don't pretend to know them all. Home birth should always be available as a safe option.

Again, thank you for your post!


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## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

Quote:

Studies show that for low-risk women, mortality rates are not reduced with hospital birth compared to home birth.
There are no studies that show this. A "study" cannot prove a negative. There are no studies that show that either hospitals or home birth reduce mortality.


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## pannacotta (Jul 25, 2006)

yes for thousands of years women had babies at home (we're all descended from women who birthed successfully or we wouldn't be here..  )

and it was accepted as inevitable that women died in childbirth too and many did. there is nothing wrong with women's bodies that we need such high c section rates and so on, but there is a lot wrong with how births are handled in hospitals, but i don't think personally that doing without the safety net is the best response to that.

at the same time i think it's just as important to manage a birth in hospital with as much strength and determination as you would at home.ie knowing what you want, knowing what is safe and unsafe and listening to that inner voice.

i feel having help nearby is important for those unexpected, undiagnosable (i've only talked about 3 emergencies but there are others) things. we can control how we handle a birth in hospital, but we can't control what happens in these emergencies.

and i know they are rare and most docs will prob see few in their lives, but the consequences can be soo sad.. i mean a dead mother, a kid who never knows his mom. that it has changed my mind about homebirths. you coudn't get a stronger advocate for homebirths than me before the reality of life's fragility was brought home to me very sharply.

i'm writing this - and it's been very difficult to write it, i'm still suffering from the effects of this birth and i hate to say what i feel i should say about homebirth but having been so close to death i am not the person i was and so aware of how such an event can happen to anyone. i suppose i'm trying to say look beyond the statistics of 'what is safe in 99% of cases' and think would you be comfortable with the consequences on you or your family if that 1% chance happens to you.

i haven't spoken of this very much since my son was born. it's been too hard.


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## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

Sorry for the post-a-thon.

Just as an anecdote...

When I was interviewing my midwife, I asked her what the most serious complication she ever dealt with was. She had a woman with a placenta accreta at home, 20 minutes away from a hospital. She said that it was, "a humbling and terrifying experience." She didn't go into details, but she stabilized the woman while the ambulance arrived. Luckily, mama and baby were fine. You can survive an accreta at home, I guess, but you need someone with medical experience there to help you and stabilize you at the VERY least.


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## Alcyone (Apr 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JesseMomme* 
The way I see it, you listened to your gut, and that's a very valuable thing. You felt something was very wrong, insisted that there was something not right, and went to the hospital. I haven't met any women who would do otherwise. Your point is moot, IMO.

That was my thought too. I am planning a homebirth but I'm very close to a good hospital and would have no issues going to it in the event I felt something was going wrong. For me personally, I would be less inclined to homebirth if the hospital weren't so close. I like having "plan B" readily available.


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## pannacotta (Jul 25, 2006)

thanks for the encouragement. part of the reason i haven't written about this is i know i'll get attacked - i'm going against the grain here but i really feel it is important to say and i'm not a pro-drugs, knock me out cut it out type of person at all.. pretty feral overall 

i think another important question is

is a woman giving birth at home because she wants to avoid the fights over 'routine procedures' she might encounter at the hospital

(because with preparation you can avoid those fights and have someone help you. to the person who couldn't afford the doula, here in SF there are lots of free doula programs, from doulas who are learning and need the experience to get certification. and i'm sorry to hear of yet another hospital birth that was badly handled emotionally by a hospital - from the sounds of it the writer was incredibly strong so kudos. i also think there are some unusually mean people working in some L&D... (as well as some saints..)

2/
or is she strongly drawn to her home, her nest as the best place for birth.

my ideal of a homebirth was actually out in the wild, by the ocean, alone, maybe holding a tree during contractions, walking, hearing the surges of the waves. i used that image a lot when preparing with hypnobirthing (which can have amazing amazing results. i suspect my accreta prob made the labor too painful from the start so it didn't work, but i know hypnobirthing can make for beautiful births and encourage anyone to try!)


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## Contented73 (May 14, 2006)

Quote:

The way I see it, you listened to your gut, and that's a very valuable thing. You felt something was very wrong, insisted that there was something not right, and went to the hospital. I haven't met any women who would do otherwise. Your point is moot, IMO.
This is exactly what I was thinking as I read the story. This is a story that supports homebirth. OP, you felt something was wrong and you transferred. In fact, your body gave you good clues that something was wrong. How does this make homebirth any less safe?

Additionally, who's to say that everyone has a good outcome with accreta - even if they ARE in the hospital? In your case, they were doing everything they could, yet it wasn't working so it still seems that it is only through the grace of god/luck/whatever you want to call it, that got you through it alive. Wouldn't you say?

And of course the flip side of this is, how many extremely rare but life-threatening situations occur as a result of being in the hospital? I think you could point out a number of things which happen purely as a result of having been in the hospital, that happen 1 in 60,000. Like acquiring an infection that significantly debilitates or kills the mom or baby. No one (well, except us maybe







) tries to say that a hospital is a dangerous place to have a baby because of those extremely rare things.

Edited to add: hopefully you don't see this as attacking you! It must have been an awful and scary situation for you, and I'm really happy for you that you trusted your intuition and had a midwife you respected you!


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## pannacotta (Jul 25, 2006)

yeah, i agree not all accretas result in as quick and massive blood loss as mine. some placentas just sit there and won't detach and you have lots of time to get to the hosp and a good midwife knows not to tug away like you're pulling a cow on a rope.. 

i'm glad your friend was fine, it sounds like she had an excellent midwife. however.. sometimes blood loss is so great there's no time, there was almost no time to get the fluids in me despite being in an OR - there's no way i would have made it despite being about 15 mins fast driving to a hospital.

who would have thought.. it's ironic that it had to happen to me when i was planning to homebirth..

all i felt was 'something's wrong' and of course mindblowing pain. the midwife, knowing i wanted to birth at home, suggested i stick it out, saying 'you're having a baby it will hurt' but i knew, i knew that it was not normal to not be dilated and be in such agony. each contraction i was saying in my mind 'this has to be the last one without pain relief' . and i was as 1cm. so of course i felt like wuss getting there and asking for an epidural at 1cm.. of course i did  i have pretty high pain tolerance and there i was.. ack.!

anyway i digress..


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## aileen (Jan 23, 2006)

i have a few thoughts.
first, i am thankful that you and your baby are both here and healthy.
i can understand how your traumatic experience is making you second guess your well researched opinion to plan a homebirth. but your birth sounds to me like a perfect example the safety net that hospitals do already provide. you went to the hospital as soon as things deviated from the heathy, normal pregnancy you'd been having. you listened to your body. you, thankfully, thankfully, made it to your safety net with 24 hours to spare.

when i was 30 weeks pregnant with my daughter i was talking with a midwife who i was interviewing to be my doula for the upcoming hospital birth. i was talking about how i wanted to stay home as long as possible, and she sort of clued into me and said, "it sounds like you sort of want to accidentally have a homebirth." i admitted that i did. "if you want to have a homebirth you should probably plan one;" she said, "if the baby falls out at home, great. if not you go to the hospital." i talked about my fears, the what ifs, the rare, rare, rare, but terrible things that could go wrong. she looked at me with the sweetest most loving eyes and said the most terrible thing. she said, "there is no guarantee; even at the hospital."
my sweet baby fell out at home a few months later. she'll be five next week.
your baby didn't fall out of you at home.
and you are both alive.
and i am so sad that i know mamas who have had babies die. at home. in the hospital. perfect beautiful babies.
and i am so grateful that i had this knowledge that birth itself is a risk. pregnancy is a risk. i feel so blessed to have approached my births in this cloud of gracious appreciation for normal (tempered by an ever watchful eye toward deviation form that norm). i feel like i have been let onto the greatest secret of the world; that _every_ time a new life passes out of it's mother and stares her in the face it is a freaking miracle - be it two days after a c-section or two seconds after mamas hands bring you to the surface of the blow up fishy pool.
i feel the same pain and sense of a gasping for breath in your voice as i often do reading about mamas who have been emotionally or physically mauled by their hospital experiences. your profound relief is mirrored by scarred women who desperately wish they never set foot in a hospital. or never met the hb midwife who lied to them, or never ignored that sinking feeling, or just scheduled a c/s at 39 weeks. if only, if only. birth can be so scary. you are right, there is so much work to be done so that all women have safe birth choices and can make those choices with the least amount of "if onlys".
home birth _is_ statistically safe, but it is _so_ much safer to me than that.

i hope you have found some peace by being able to tell your story.








(i hope this isn't too disjointed, i keep running off to nurse my sleeping son...)


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## pannacotta (Jul 25, 2006)

_This is exactly what I was thinking as I read the story. This is a story that supports homebirth. OP, you felt something was wrong and you transferred. In fact, your body gave you good clues that something was wrong. How does this make homebirth any less safe?_

because some things happen *without warning*.

i feel the accreta and the initial pain were connected but of course i have no proof.

the accreta could have happened without warning after the baby was born, with amniotic fluid embolism there is *no* warning (google it, it's upsetting for me to remember and i had a mild case.. quickly recognized and corrected by an amazing anesthesiologist) and i was in the OR already. usually within seconds a woman goes from normal to collapse. within seconds. and you have seconds or minutes to stop her going into cardiac arrest and all the other bad things.
"
_Additionally, who's to say that everyone has a good outcome with accreta - even if they ARE in the hospital? In your case, they were doing everything they could, yet it wasn't working so it still seems that it is only through the grace of god/luck/whatever you want to call it, that got you through it alive. Wouldn't you say?"
_---
no, and i'm not saying that - please read my post carefully. i'm saying you would have a better chance in a hospital in the case of sudden serious problems. i'm not saying being in a hospital guarantees your survival.

''
_And of course the flip side of this is, how many extremely rare but life-threatening situations occur as a result of being in the hospital? I think you could point out a number of things which happen purely as a result of having been in the hospital, that happen 1 in 60,000. Like acquiring an infection that significantly debilitates or kills the mom or baby. No one (well, except us maybe ) tries to say that a hospital is a dangerous place to have a baby because of those extremely rare things._

''

of course and i say that in my post too. i say that hospitals often cause more probs than they solve in the case or those overmanaged births.. (and i'm with you all in that birth isn't a medical condition in my opinion. )BUT.. in the case of an emergency you want the hospital there.

_Edited to add: hopefully you don't see this as attacking you! It must have been an awful and scary situation for you, and I'm really happy for you that you trusted your intuition and had a midwife you respected you!_

not at all and thank you.. actually she went with us but wasn't that supportive. i insisted on going. i think she didn't know what to make of what was happening. i remember at one point as we were leaving she felt my abdomen (as a contraction was ending so it was not that tense) and declared that the contractions weren't very strong (implicit is so how could they hurt).. the contraction was almost over but i still couldn't speak from the pain so i didn't say anything.

i'm all for healthy discussion..


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## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

Always act on an intuition when it tells you that something's wrong.
Never act on an intuition when it tells you that everything is okay.

Like my Grandfather said.. "Never trust anyone who says 'just trust me.'"









Interesting thing about that is... "Just trust me," are always the words coming out of doctors' and nurses' mouths.









Pannacotta- If you put your  smilies the other way, they will make the graphic smiley.

aileen- What a beautiful post! You really described what I was talking about with there being many different factors that affect the safety of birth. I would not say, however, that it is statistically safe. I would say that it's "not been proven to be statistically unsafe," but I am a stickler for these kinds of things. Anyway, thank you for the beautiful post.


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## pannacotta (Jul 25, 2006)

_there is no guarantee; even at the hospita_

agreed and i do say that in the OP. but my point is you have a better chance (not risk free. no birth is risk free, crossing the road is not risk free!) simply because some things need massive interventions. in past centuries women just died, it was accepted that certain things that happened in birth would kill you. now we have a safety net - shouldn't we use it while managing it very very carefully so it doesn't smother us 

i'm very glad you had a good homebirth. i'm still addicted to watching homebirth videos on youtube..they are so sweeeet!! and i'm so happy every time i see the mother hold her baby for the first time.

but remember also that because it went well for you, as it does for the vast majority of women, doesn't mean that it's ok all the time. things can go wrong in a hospital just as at home (more so if you let the suckers tick off all their list of interventions !) but in the case of serious unexpected complications, being where there is help, an OR, blood, anesthesia *can* (not *will*, but *can* increase your chances of living and of your baby living. a sudden abruption (rupture of uterus = baby stops getting oxygen in seconds) can kill a baby quicker than it takes to get to a hospital for example.

i was really reluctant to post my story here tonight, maybe i should not have, it's traumatic to relive it (i still have flashbacks and ptsd), but if it can save one life it's worth it.

remem i'm talking about really rare events, but you just don't know if they'll happen to you. statistically you're more likely to be in the 99% where everything turns out fine. but that 1% is still there, it's gotta happen to someone. i never would have thought it would have happened to me. i feel like those people you see on TV after a fire or other disaster.. they always say 'this is such a quiet place, i never would have thought it would happen here" and we're at home watching them thinking oh i can't imagine it happening to me.. but you're out there in some unknown town..it's sad, but you're a stranger and these things happen to strangers dont' they.. don't they..

sorry for my bad typing and thanks for your posts. i'm off to bed now ...
gnight everyone..


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## mwherbs (Oct 24, 2004)

do you think that the extreme pain you were experiencing was because of the accreta? with placental tissue invading too deeply into your muscle layers- it seems that it could not only cause more pain but also abnormal contraction patterns as well. Did you have AFE or DIC? extreme loss of blood volume can cause DIC.


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## Contented73 (May 14, 2006)

Quote:

Additionally, who's to say that everyone has a good outcome with accreta - even if they ARE in the hospital? In your case, they were doing everything they could, yet it wasn't working so it still seems that it is only through the grace of god/luck/whatever you want to call it, that got you through it alive. Wouldn't you say?"
---
no, and i'm not saying that - please read my post carefully. i'm saying you would have a better chance in a hospital in the case of sudden serious problems. i'm not saying being in a hospital guarantees your survival.

I *did* read your post carefully. Looking back on my post, I realize I wasn't totally clear, but I was asking "wouldn't you say" to the part about them doing everything they could with you.

Yes, you did say that in case of a few, extremely rare, extremely serious, emergencies, you are better off in a hospital, but that ultimately there is no guarantee. I think pretty much everyone here would agree with that. I also think that many of us here would say, "because of a few rare and extremely serious situations, which are actually caused by being in the hospital, you are much better off at home."

I am truly sorry for your experience, and I'm glad there are posters like aileen who can really say something kind and beautiful. However, to me your story does not mean hospitals are safer for giving birth; it just doesn't. It's all about the risk that any individual woman is willing to take. Obviously, as you were getting at in your post, the ideal would be to have a birth place where no risk is introduced, yet extreme emergency care is readily available. Personally, I just don't think this is possible - something close to it, maybe, and I do fantasize about this very thing sometimes! But in the meantime, I'll take the risk and continue to have my kids out of hospital.


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## pannacotta (Jul 25, 2006)

ok very last reply b4 bed.. 

i had afe (mild afe) - acute hypotension (b/p 50/30 i think, acute hypoxia (face was turning blue, felt couldn't breathe, suffocating), some coagulopathy which might have been DIC from hemorrhage (i don't remember exactly what the coagulopathy was.. apart form the obvious 'why won't she stop bleeding..') but was corrected pretty quickly by an amazing anesthesiologist.

i suspect the pain was related to accreta but have no evidence. i've done a bit of research into this (web, asking obgyns etc) and the conclusions seem to be two 1/ accreta is rare and not many studies on it- at least no studies saying extreme pain in early labor suggestive of accreta and 2/the experts i talked to suggested that 'unusual pain in early labor often suggests underlying probs'

but again no evidence.. i'd love to dive into some hospital database and see if there's a connection. !


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## pannacotta (Jul 25, 2006)

i love your 'i love this thread i think i'm going to live here..' tag line.. made me laugh..

i find all the responses interesting too but the whole topic is scary too.. i kind of posted originally as a kind of 'public service' message - (kind of read this as another opinion while you decide what birth you want) i'm just an average mom and not important except as an flesh n blood example of that scary 1%









now i'm really off to bed..

ok i'm trying to do smiley's the other way round as suggested..


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## pannacotta (Jul 25, 2006)

ok let me ask something i've been thinking about..

if such a place - totally homebirth like place - existed *within* a hospital (same floor as regular L&D), staffed by midwives, with tubs, showers, soft lighting, family members allowed, birth balls, massage, music, no compulsory limits on stages of labor, no 'routine ivs' no ban on food and drink etc ..whatever you would have at homebirth you have it here..just not in the 4 walls of your home

would you birth there?

getting back to my earlier question do most of you choose h/b because
a/ you want to avoid the bad things associated with hospitals

or b/ you're drawn to birthing in your home, in your nest, like you might be drawn to chocolate and cheese as a pregnancy craving.


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## aileen (Jan 23, 2006)

pannacotta - your baby is lucky to have you.
not just because you made it through such a harrowing birth, but because you are thorough and passionate and open minded and brave.
and i think it's important that you posted your story. for you and for mamas who read it. i think you very well may save a life (imagine if there is a accreta/pain connection and now we are all more aware of it..)
i hope you sleep well after talking about it; i hope it doesn't make your mind race too much.

and holothuroidea, i love a stickler.
how's this? homebirth is not statistically unsafe, but it is so much more not statistically unsafe to me.


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## rabbitmum (Jan 25, 2007)

Here's another lovey post from me! I'm really sorry you had such a traumatic birth experience, and I think you were very brave to write about it - it must have been tough! I had a bad first birth experience because of severe hemorrhages too, so I can sympathise.

I think you're right that your "third alternative" should exist everywhere! I am so sad every time I read about American MDC mothers who are in a horrible pinch because of not wanting the interventions of the hospital, but really not feeling 100 % sure about a homebirth.

My second birth was a wonderful unplanned and unassisted homebirth, so I completely agree that a normal homebirth is about the most wonderful experience anyone can possibly have. But not everybody feels comfortable planning a homebirth, so there should be a good alternative available.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
well i'm an idealist and i also know that birth is a business.. it costs more to have more nurses looking after a women 1:1 rather than one nurse at the nurses' station monitoring contractions of 15 women via electronic fetal monitoring. sure - and that's probably why my ideal solution isn't happening in many places.

It is happening in a lot of places! It is the norm in Norway, and England too, as far as I know - and probably many European countries.

My third birth was a hospital birth in Norway's biggest hospital. I had a midwife assigned, as do everybody here, the doctor only turns up if something unusual happens, like hemorrhage, or to deliver the head of a breech baby. There's no electronc monitoring of the baby unless necessary, so I had none of that. I had a big room with a big birthing tub, a sofa, plants, a baby bed (which was very strange to look at), etc. I had no vaginal "fiddling" during the birth, I didn't want any unnecessary checking of dilation, which means I didn't have any at all. At the end I checked a bit myself, out of curiosity, but the midwife didn't seem like she thought it was necessary to do very much at all, except try to help me find positions that were comfortable. It was an extremely painful birth compared to my first two, and I asked for pain relief relatively soon, which I could have, since we were in a hospital. I also hemorrhaged badly and suddenly - the placenta was stuck - but help was immediately available without having to drive anywhere.

In my opinion this is close to the best of both worlds - as few interventions as possible, but help in immediate proximity for those who need or feel that they need it.

But giving birth in a hospital is absolutely free here, so it's maybe not business?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
if such a place - totally homebirth like place - existed *within* a hospital (same floor as regular L&D), staffed by midwives, with tubs, showers, soft lighting, family members allowed, birth balls, massage, music, no compulsory limits on stages of labor, no 'routine ivs' no ban on food and drink etc ..whatever you would have at homebirth you have it here..just not in the 4 walls of your home

would you birth there?

Yes, that is available in Norwegian hospitals, and that's what I chose.


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## Alcyone (Apr 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
or b/ you're drawn to birthing in your home, in your nest, like you might be drawn to chocolate and cheese as a pregnancy craving.

That would be me. The situation in Denmark doesn't sound much different from Norway. I'm sure I'd be fine in a hospital, and if, for example, my mother or husband started to throw a last-minute hissy fit about staying at home, I'd probably rather go to the hospital than argue about it. I just feel relaxed and comfortable in my home in a way that I won't be anywhere else. I can probably _get_ comfortable somewhere else, but I already _am_ comfortable here, kwim?


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## turtlewomyn (Jun 5, 2005)

I am truly sorry that you had such a traumatic birth experience.









I agree with you that we definitely need some hospital reform, to make birth more normal in the hospital (midwives for all low risk births, with OB's around to take the high risk births and emergencies, like many European countries do).

I still think that homebirth with well qualified DEM's should be an option for women who are well informed and still make that choice.

I am glad that you and your baby are OK now.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
i love your 'i love this thread i think i'm going to live here..' tag line.. made me laugh..

i find all the responses interesting too but the whole topic is scary too.. i kind of posted originally as a kind of 'public service' message - (kind of read this as another opinion while you decide what birth you want) i'm just an average mom and not important except as an flesh n blood example of that scary 1%









now i'm really off to bed..

ok i'm trying to do smiley's the other way round as suggested.. 

1%??? i dont think thats accurate. can someone w/ stats readily available chime in on this.

i dont think anyone here has some euphoric belief that nothing will happen if they have a homebirth. i would hope that MOST, if not ALL, moms to be read read read about the dangers of not having trained surgeons on site..but the stats are weighed AGAINST hospital births. The mortality rates of hospital births are HIGHER than homebirths (and probably even worse than we know b/c many homebirths arent reported as such, but "accidents").

i for one want to know my chances of risk in a homebirth. I wanted to have a trained MW present, etc. etc. I am pretty confident that is something is wrong (which you figured out rather quickly) that we will be transferring.

but to simply suggest that women go to hospitals and fight w/ OBs and nurses while in labor to avoid unnecessary routine procedures is simply not realistic. Most women in labor can NOT fight well for themselves and many doulas and husbands will back down and not fight enough for them...resulting in stalled labor.... etc. etc. etc.


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## Lisa85 (May 22, 2006)

Call me dumb, but I don't understand your reasoning at all. Moms and babies die while birthing at home. Moms and babies die while birthing in a hospital. Statistically though, homebirth is safer if you are low risk. So while for you personally a hospital is a better choice due to your history, statistically speaking the rest of us are better off at home. You did the right thing, you knew something wasn't right and you went to the hospital. You had the warning signs and you listened. The rest of us (hopefully) will do the same thing. If we get a warning sign, we'll go to the hospital. If not, we stay home where statistically speaking our chances of a successful birth are better.

Because you didn't have an ideal birth at home, and required a hospital birth, doesn't mean the rest of us should. We know the risks. We've read the stories. We know what can happen. We also know all of that for the other side, and for healthy low risk women, it sways to homebirth.


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## nashvillemidwife (Dec 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
in the case of sudden rare emergencies, home birth is riskier than hospital birth, i don't think that's up for discussion. i'm not disputing that hospital interventions *cause* many complications, but that's another topic

Yes. So statistically, what are the odds of developing a complication caused by hospital interventions versus an unforeseen life-threatening emergency at home. Seriously, do you have that statistic? I don't, but I have the statistics from all the other studies of outcomes of planned home births and they do not agree with you. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I'm sorry that such a tragedy occurred to you. I don't think many homebirthing families are ignorant that sometimes bad things do happen at home that could be prevented in the hospital. But, as you yourself pointed out, there are risks to either decision.


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## nashvillemidwife (Dec 2, 2007)

For me, it comes down to refusing to live in fear. Women die in childbirth all the time, whether it is at home or in the hospital. As you mentioned, mortality rate from placenta accreta and amniotic fluid embolism are high, even with hospital care (which is where almost all of them take place). If I thought that way, I would never leave my house. Do you know what the chances are that you will be injured or killed in a serious car accident? When I think about it, driving terrifies me. But I've got places to go, and if I dwell on the possibility of every bad thing that could happen to me I would be immobilized by fear. At some point you've just got to accept that everything in life has risk and go on with your life. Some people find it more acceptable to take the risks of birth in a hospital. Some people find it more acceptable to take those risks at home. We are each entitled to our opinions. It was very brave of you to share your opinion, but the actions you are urging other women to take it based only on your opinion.


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## Septagram (Feb 8, 2008)

I, too, am sorry for what happened to you. Thank goodness everything turned out fine.

Nashvillemidwife hit the nail on the head for me, though. I refuse to live in fear. I ended up passing out after my homebirth from blood loss. My skilled and experienced midwife stopped the blood and everything was fine. That's why I hired her, after all. I felt most comfortable hiring someone to come to me when I was ready. She arrived when I was in transition because that's when I wanted her here. Had I felt more comfortable in a hospital I would have birthed there again, but my experience there was torturous and terrible. I was willing to take my chances if that meant that I could birth on my terms and not on someone else's turf. Even with a birthing center environment availible to me, I wanted to be on MY TURF.

I read a ton of books, dozens of studies and articles, and looked at what could really happen to me during and after my labor. I was 100% comfortable with my choice. I had a very normal pregnancy, labor, and birth. Homebirth was the right choice for me. Had something been wrong I would have transfered, but since nothing was outside the scope of what the Midwife could take care of, we didn't have to.


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## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

Please, ladies, site your sources that show that home birth is safer, reduces mortality, please.

I have never seen any sources that say this with any kind of certainty.

Statistics, in the case of home birth, really cannot prove anything. This happens for various reasons. "Safety" is a relative and poorly defined term. It is virtually impossible to collect an accurate population sample of home birthing women in the United States, and it is even more impossible to find an adequate hospital control group to compare them too. The data that exists now (In the BMJ study, for example) can be (and has been) manipulated to show that either way is safer.

This is something that we should accept, that good statistics do not exist, instead of pretending like they show us what we want them to show us.

Just a friendly reminder.

Home birth will never be about "the statistics show us it's safer," anyway. Even if the statistics made a very good case against home birth, most of us would still do it. Why do we even bother to spout these mistruths at people? Reassurance? From what? What monster living under our beds has forced us to recede to believing this nonsense?


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Thank you for sharing your story mama. I'm glad you and your baby pulled through such a terrifying experience.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *holothuroidea* 
Please, ladies, site your sources that show that home birth is safer, reduces mortality, please. I have never seen any sources that say this with any kind of certainty.

The Lewis Mehl study is the most comprehensive, scientific to date and has been cited here 1000s of times.

To the OP:

Veteran of four homebirth; no flames here. You did your research.

I am sorry your homebirth did not workout. You did the right thing when you transferred with the awful pain. Your body told you something was wrong and you did the appropriate thing. I doubt if you had planned on a hospital birth from the git-go things would have been different, except now, you know what happened and are better informed. I am sure that having educated yourself that you truly know your surgery was necessary, which is not always the case with most women who have had a surgical birth.

As for placenta accreta, many surgeries are done on nulliparas now without informing women of the full risks of the surgeries.

1. If you ever had your fallopian tubes blown out for infertility, that can introduce bacteria into your uterus and tubes and cause the very thing it is looking for - scar tissue.

2. Cervical biopsies can be extensive and introduce bacteria into the uterus, causing scar tissue and set the stage for placenta accreta and previa.

3. If you ever had an IUD, these act by irritating the uterine lining, causing a low grade infection and can cause, not necessarily, but can cause scar tissue.

4. A previous D&C can cause scar tissue also to form in the uterus. So even if you have not had a caesarean section there are other opportunities to cause scar tissue in the uterus and set up a condition for placenta accreta even before a woman is a mother.

If you want a reference or source for this information, read the consent forms for them.

So a previous caesarean section or myomectomy are not necessarily the only way to get scar tissue growing in the uterus or to have a minor infection.

Did you have a hysterectomy?


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## DoomaYula (Aug 22, 2006)

I'm glad you survived that horrible situation. It sounds very scary









However, I agree with many pp who say that it was your intuition that was of utmost value to you. I believe that your case is actually _pro_-homebirth, as you planned it, researched it, and then when you realized something was wrong, you went to the hospital and received appropriate medical care. Had you been ignorant to the signs/symptoms of medical emergencies, you might have died at home.

I think it's the women who choose homebirth who do the research; women who blindly give birth in hospitals without even giving it a thought are often ignorant of the reality of giving birth.

I think you are prescribing that every woman give birth in a medical facility because of _your_ experience, which is dangerous. Just because you had a very rare complication, does not negate the statistics which state that homebirth is AS safe as hospital for low-risk women. (cite: JMB study)

I had a pph with my homebirth. It sucks, but it's a risk and I knew it was a risk when I chose to homebirth. I transferred after the baby was born for appropriate medical care. But I didn't go until I knew I needed more than what could be done at home. And even having had a pph, I will give birth at home again (if we have more kids), fully knowing the risks.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
ok let me ask something i've been thinking about..

if such a place - totally homebirth like place - existed *within* a hospital (same floor as regular L&D), staffed by midwives, with tubs, showers, soft lighting, family members allowed, birth balls, massage, music, no compulsory limits on stages of labor, no 'routine ivs' no ban on food and drink etc ..whatever you would have at homebirth you have it here..just not in the 4 walls of your home

would you birth there?

getting back to my earlier question do most of you choose h/b because
a/ you want to avoid the bad things associated with hospitals

or b/ you're drawn to birthing in your home, in your nest, like you might be drawn to chocolate and cheese as a pregnancy craving.

No I wouldn't. In this country, they almost don't exist. Especially if you are a VBACer or you are like most of us who have doctors who find it more convenient to cut you. Just b/c you don't require an IV or can eat doesn't mean you won't be forced into lithotomy with your baby taken from you for 3 hours under the warming lights and given unnecessary shots and interventions while you have your placenta pulled out of you.

Of course h/b is better for the reasons hospitals are not good. That's the point, isn't it? It is a place you can be comfortable and safe. You needn't worry about random strangers coming in to observe your coochie while you are laboring. You don't have to beg people not to invade your body.

I think what you propose is honestly pretty offensive. It suggests that people who choose homebirth all do it out of fear and know nothing of the risks to ANY birth. There are *always* risks with everything. Heck, you can die from drinking too much water!! While you also are ignoring the studies on homebirth saying they aren't "recent" whatever that means. God knows when it comes to giving birth only the studies from the past couple years matter? Not the whole biological fact that it is a normal process and it's very rare for things to actually go wrong.

Why go to a hospital for a normal delivery where you face a higher chance of c-section, infections, and non-necessary interventions???

I suggest you read these reports and studies before you assume we all don't know anything about rare risks in homebirth. If it makes anyone feel better, I saw some from 2005 on there. :
http://www.gentlebirth.org/ronnie/homesafe.html

On that page from BMJ:

Quote:

Neonatal Outcomes:

In the hospital, 3.7 times as many babies required resuscitation.
Infection rates of newborns were 4 times higher in the hospital.
There was 2.5 times as many cases of meconium aspiration pneumonia in the hospital group.
There were 6 cases of neonatal lungwater syndrome in the hospital and none at home.
There were 30 birth injuries (mostly due to forceps) in the hospital group, and none at home.
The incidence of respiratory distress among newborns was 17 times greater in the hospital than in the home.
While neonatal and perinatal death rates were statistically the same for both groups, Apgar scores (a measure of physical well being of the newborn) were significantly worse in the hospital.
And since all of the people pushing that hospital birth is the only acceptable way because they lurve to use scare tactics against women going through a normal, natural process, here are just a couple reasons hospital births are not the way to go for almost every woman:
http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic1619.htm
http://www.gentlebirth.org/ronnie/mederrors.html
http://www.childbirthconnection.org/...e.asp?ck=10166

Quote:


Originally Posted by *holothuroidea* 
Please, ladies, site your sources that show that home birth is safer, reduces mortality, please.

I have never seen any sources that say this with any kind of certainty.

Statistics, in the case of home birth, really cannot prove anything. This happens for various reasons. "Safety" is a relative and poorly defined term. It is virtually impossible to collect an accurate population sample of home birthing women in the United States, and it is even more impossible to find an adequate hospital control group to compare them too. The data that exists now (In the BMJ study, for example) can be (and has been) manipulated to show that either way is safer.

This is something that we should accept, that good statistics do not exist, instead of pretending like they show us what we want them to show us.

Just a friendly reminder.

Home birth will never be about "the statistics show us it's safer," anyway. Even if the statistics made a very good case against home birth, most of us would still do it. Why do we even bother to spout these mistruths at people? Reassurance? From what? What monster living under our beds has forced us to recede to believing this nonsense?

My pleasure. And FWIW since my dh was a chemist in pharma and I have taken way too many stats classes for my own sanity, there are NO good 100% unbiased studies. EVER. Seriously. All data can be manipulated. So you are right about that. But that also unhinges the view that hospital birth is safer.







The AMA definitely has something to lose with that. Just ask all us Illinoisians.

So if you are convinced that stats never matter because they aren't infallible...why ask for studies?

Studies and reports:

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/330/7505/1416?ehom
http://www.naturalchildbirth.org/nat...omebirth01.htm
http://www.mothering.com/articles/pr...nder-fire.html
http://www.homebirth.org.nz/articles...irthsafety.pdf
http://www.yin-yang.com/vbfree/docs/schlenzka.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9...?dopt=Abstract
http://www.gentlebirth.org/ronnie/isleMan.html
http://www.gentlebirth.org/archives/whoplace.html
http://www.globalmidwives.org/files/...rth-safety.pdf
http://www.bmj.com/archive/7068pr4.htm
http://www.bmj.com/archive/7068pr4.htm
http://www.bmj.com/archive/7068pr4.htm
http://www.bmj.com/archive/7068pr1.htm
http://www.bmj.com/archive/7068pr1.htm
http://www.changesurfer.com/Hlth/homebirth.html

From a World Health Organization (WHO) report - subsection on Place of Birth:

Quote:

It has never been scientifically proven that the hospital is a safer place than home for a woman who has had an uncomplicated pregnancy to have her baby. Studies of planned home births in developed countries with women who have had uncomplicated pregnancies have shown sickness and death rates for mother and baby equal to or better than hospital birth statistics for women with uncomplicated pregnancies.
http://www.collegeofmidwives.org/leg...1/synopsis.htm
http://www.collegeofmidwives.org/leg...1/synopsis.htm

From http://www.gentlebirth.org/ronnie/homesafe.html

Quote:

From a report on homebirth in England:

More recently, the 1992 House of Commons Select Committee on Maternity Services, now known as the Winterton report, went to the heart of the issue in the first of more than 100 recommendations and conclusions on pregnancy, labour and postnatal care.
On the basis of what we have heard, this Committee must draw the conclusion that the policy of encouraging all women to give birth in hospitals cannot be justified on grounds of safety.

Elsewhere the report went further. "There is no convincing or compelling evidence that hospitals give a better guarantee of the safety of the majority of mothers and babies. It is possible, but not proven, that the contrary may be the case."

BTW your chance of your infant dying during a c-section is three times as high for elective c-sections. So you are right:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *holothuroidea* 
Reassurance? From what? What monster living under our beds has forced us to recede to believing this nonsense?

What reassurance does elective c-sections give us? What reassurance does a hospital birth give us? That if we are one of the vast minority a hospital may help us yet very well may kill us with an unnecessary c-section or MRSA or even more likely, medical mistake? What has forced us to believe THAT nonsense? Do people really believe that even though women have given birth since time immemorial that we are somehow incapable of doing it without a full hospital backup any more? And of course women died during childbirth. They still do! Now most often b/c of anesthesia or c-section complications or infections. Surely if anyone used to know anything about germ theory and how it wasn't actually a good idea to stick a dirty hand up into a birthing woman then less would have died from childbirthing fever, right?








Nashvillemidwife


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

I'm sorry you had a bad experience.

That being said, you planned on a homebirth, listened to your body, and knew you needed medical intervention. That does not mean homebirth is unsafe. It means that for this particular pregnancy YOU needed a hospital birth.

You had a bad experience but statisics show that by far homebirth is safer. Don't denigrate women who intelligently choose homebirth because YOU needed to birth in a hospital.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
ok let me ask something i've been thinking about..

if such a place - totally homebirth like place - existed *within* a hospital (same floor as regular L&D), staffed by midwives, with tubs, showers, soft lighting, family members allowed, birth balls, massage, music, no compulsory limits on stages of labor, no 'routine ivs' no ban on food and drink etc ..whatever you would have at homebirth you have it here..just not in the 4 walls of your home

would you birth there?

.


No, not unless I needed to be there.


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## aileen (Jan 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *applejuice* 
As for placenta accreta, many surgeries are done on nulliparas now without informing women of the full risks of the surgeries.

i wondered about this too.


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## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

Quote:

All data can be manipulated. So you are right about that. But that also unhinges the view that hospital birth is safer. The AMA definitely has something to lose with that. Just ask all us Illinoisians.

So if you are convinced that stats never matter because they aren't infallible...why ask for studies?
I agree, and I never ask for studies about this stuff for my own information. People really believe whatever they hear when it follows "Studies show..." and I think that is very dangerous. Studies can be set up to show anything you want them too, to get the general public to believe it. I don't trust it.

*My point is, who cares anyway? Who cares about someone else's definition of "saftey" and how that relates to what number of people die where? It all seems so irrelevant to me. My question is, why do we even bother with this stuff?*

Me and my husband are both chemists, we spend a lot of time thinking about science. We've come to the conclusion that obstetrics is the LEAST scientific of any of the medicinal sciences, which tend not to be all that scientific anyway. You cannot apply science to the human condition, just ask Einstein.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

I almost forgot. Pretty recently there was an article in Mothering about homebirth in Holland, right? I would highly suggest reading that article. It was very good and that will give a good perspective on the safety of homebirth for all those who doubt it.

http://www.mothering.com/articles/pr...n-holland.html
http://www.mothering.com/articles/pr...homebirth.html
http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articl...irthissues.asp
http://www.gentlebirth.org/format/my...t.html#Studies

I would also suggest the books Pushed, Born In the USA, and The Thinking Woman's Guide to a Better Birth.


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## elfinbaby (Mar 17, 2002)

I'm glad you felt "safe" enough to tell your story on MDC. Often times we need to talk about our birth experience and I'm glad you were able to here.

Although what happened to you is rare, it does happen and can have tragic consequences. But I would ask you to see it from a different perspective. Homebirth is still a wonderfully safe option for most women and here's why - you listened to your INSTINCTS early on in labor and honored them. I think that is absolutely amazing!! How great was it that your body alerted you that something wasn't "right" and that you listened w/no questions (or so it seems in your post - leaving in 15 min. of the pain). Being in tune, trusting ourselves is part of hbing and I think your story is one of triumph b/c you did it! I am not at all trying to downplay the medical interventions that were required and what kind of toll they took on your body and birth experience. We are all hoping to avoid complications.

Oddly enough, I found your story to be a comfort. It proves to me that, even during labor, even experiencing pain, even with the many influences from drs./mw./societal birthing fears, your inner voice got through and said "Go." You did. You did an amazing thing.

I'm glad your recovery went well. Best wishes.

April - happy homebirther


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *holothuroidea* 
I agree, and I never ask for studies about this stuff for my own information. People really believe whatever they hear when it follows "Studies show..." and I think that is very dangerous. Studies can be set up to show anything you want them too, to get the general public to believe it. I don't trust it.

_My point is, who cares anyway? Who cares about someone else's definition of "saftey" and how that relates to what number of people die where? It all seems so irrelevant to me. My question is, why do we even bother with this stuff?_

Me and my husband are both chemists. Obstetrics is the LEAST scientific of any of the medicinal sciences, which tend not to be all that scientific anyway. You cannot apply science to the human condition, just ask Einstein.










I agree. Is there anyway you can use the Quote function to say who you are quoting, though? I often forget what I say so I feel senile if I respond to something that wasn't me.


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## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

I am very sorry for your experience.

I am one of those 6 in 1,000 (in America) whose baby was born still. Of course, there are times when I think of all the woulda, coulda, shouldas. But in reality, it happened so quickly (shoulder dystocia w/ cord compression) tha I know there was nothing I could do. I thought about condemning homebirth for it, but I know it wasn't the fact that she was born at home. When I was looking for online support I came across a mother who lost her baby the same way in a hospital.
I am very glad that you had enough warning signs of your condition to take appropriate action. Some of us aren't so lucky.
But I still do not believe that hospital birth should be default, of even you "ideal place". Bad things can happen anywhere. It's a scary thing to think about, but it is life. We need not blame our situations for these outcomes. Just realize that some things just *are*.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

My story is similar to yours on a few counts. I had a totally normal pg (my obgyn said it was textbook), pitocin very very early (before 2cm), early epidural at 2cm or so (because ds's heartrate went WAY down). I was in labor for 8 hours, I think, and he was born vaginally. (I did not know that pitocin can cause baby's heart rate to lower- thanks for that info).
After he was born, he was perfectly fine, but I started hemhorraging. They ended up giving me 5 pints of blood, and gave me an option as to the 6th and I decided no. They never told me why I hemhorraged, and I'm not sure they know. They reached in to feel for placenta, didn't find any, took me to the OR, and ended up stuffing my uterus with gauze to stop the bleeding.
They had me sign a consent form for a hysterectomy, in case the bleeding didn't stop when they took the gauze out. Thankfully, it worked.
I was in the hospital for 6 days.
(lucky for us too, bf'ing worked out well. Dp did all the work for the first few days.)

I'm fairly certain that THEY caused my hemhorraging. But I'll never know for sure. If they didn't cause it, and I'd been at home, I very easily could have died. That's why I never want to get pg again. And if I do, I'll have the baby in a hospital.

My SIL is pg, and it sounds like they have the right idea here in BC (not sure if its the same in all of Canada or not). You can choose a midwife or a doctor, and both have rights to the hospital.

Thanks for sharing your story. It's hard to have a difficult birth like that. It takes a lot of processing, at least it does for me. You never really know the "what ifs" yk?


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## Ladybyrd (Sep 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
_This is exactly what I was thinking as I read the story. This is a story that supports homebirth. OP, you felt something was wrong and you transferred. In fact, your body gave you good clues that something was wrong. How does this make homebirth any less safe?_

Quote:

because some things happen *without warning*.



But you had warning - that pain was not normal. It was a warning that you needed medical help.

Quote:

i'm saying you would have a better chance in a hospital in the case of sudden serious problems. i'm not saying being in a hospital guarantees your survival.
Well, sure...but then what? I could live at the hospital for my entire pregnancy just in case something went suddenly, seriously wrong, too, but most would think that to be a little over the top.

Quote:

BUT.. in the case of an emergency you want the hospital there.
Of course - and that's what the hospital is for - for emergency situations. Just like your emergency situation. That's why any midwife worth a grain of salt will have a mom transfer at the first sign of serious trouble. And that's why it's very important to screen one's midwives carefully.

My 3rd pregancy ended at 32 weeks with a complete placental abruption. I was warned by an excrutiating contaction that didn't subside. We went to the hospital and when they didn't find a heartbeat on ultrasound, put me under general anaesthesia for an emergency c-section. I lost so much blood that I was told that if I had shown up even 10 minutes later, we both would have died. It had been a perfectly normal pregnancy up to that point, and there was absolutely no reason for my placenta to abrupt. Things happen.

BUT, I will not say that because of that, ALL my births should be in the hospital, because I understand that it was an anomaly.

My 4th baby was born at home. My midwife knew my history, and was prepared to transfer if we needed to. A known high risk pregnancy should not be done at home - I will say that forever. But, being in a hospital "just in case" is a step backwards, especially in this day and age where we can have reliable, quick transport available to us in case of an emergency.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
ok let me ask something i've been thinking about..

if such a place - totally homebirth like place - existed *within* a hospital (same floor as regular L&D), staffed by midwives, with tubs, showers, soft lighting, family members allowed, birth balls, massage, music, no compulsory limits on stages of labor, no 'routine ivs' no ban on food and drink etc ..whatever you would have at homebirth you have it here..just not in the 4 walls of your home

would you birth there?

getting back to my earlier question do most of you choose h/b because
a/ you want to avoid the bad things associated with hospitals

or b/ you're drawn to birthing in your home, in your nest, like you might be drawn to chocolate and cheese as a pregnancy craving.

Having had this experience and THEN choosing homebirth after, yes, I would still have a homebirth. Honestly, I had a great birth experience w/a hospital midwife who was a big supporter of natural birth (she's actually close friends w/one of my homebirth midwives). Labor is labor... mine were about the same, honestly. Even in the hospital, I was allowed to eat and drink, etc, Walk, use the tub, use the birth ball. The big difference was being HOME afer vs. being in a cheap imitation of home after. There's no way I would want to give that up unless there was an emergency that necessitated a ride to the hospital (most likely in an ambulance). This is where your story supports homebirth, really... you listened to your body, knew something was VERY wrong and made the best decision for yourself and your child. I'm betting your midwife won't make the mistake of trying to talk someone out of listening to her body again. You've actually made homebirth that much safer by helping your midwife remember that the body knows when something's so wrong.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ladybyrd* 
A known high risk pregnancy should not be done at home - I will say that forever. But, being in a hospital "just in case" is a step backwards, especially in this day and age where we can have reliable, quick transport available to us in case of an emergency.

Exactly, and there are risks to hospital births too.


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## JesseMomme (Apr 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
ok let me ask something i've been thinking about..

if such a place - totally homebirth like place - existed *within* a hospital (same floor as regular L&D), staffed by midwives, with tubs, showers, soft lighting, family members allowed, birth balls, massage, music, no compulsory limits on stages of labor, no 'routine ivs' no ban on food and drink etc ..whatever you would have at homebirth you have it here..just not in the 4 walls of your home

would you birth there?

No. In the US the closest thing (besides home itself) to what you describe would be birth centers, free standing or in-hospital. The criteria is often strict - you have to be what _they_ consider low-risk, you have to be between 37-40 weeks, the baby can't be "too big" (and we know how accurate sonos are), you can't be a VBAC, and on and on.

When I first was pregnant with my second, I thought, perhaps a change of scenery would improve my birth experience. I aimed for the hospital's BC (same one I had my first birth in). They ruled me out at 34/35 weeks _because of what they did to my son._ My over managed labor sent ds into distress, when he was born they clamped his cord right away and so naturally he aspirated some old mec. During deep suctioning they punctured his lung. He developed pulmonary hypotension and was a gravely ill baby for the first week of his life. He's snuggled up with me now, I feel so blessed and lucky to have him here.

By the time I was about 35 weeks along, I had done a lot more research and realized that what happened to us wasn't some random occurrence, it wasn't "just one of those things we can't control", it wasn't fate. It was quite sadly typical. I was being denied what I thought I wanted (BC birth, after that I tried to "quit" hospital's care, and well that's a really long story) because the typical medical model of 'care' is dangerous. Talk about not fair.

So, after all that, I had no desire to look into any kind of BC ever again. I did more soul searching, and more research into homebirth and UC, and felt that UC was truly right for me (which I suspected was right for me evenwhile pregnant with ds2 but you don't just make that kind of paradigm shift in a short time). My second hospital birth, uneventful by medical standards at least, was what sealed the deal. I was not going deal with the pressure to be induced again with horror stories and threats of CPS and them being in a panic that I was a "disaster waiting to happen" at 39 weeks because of "pre-eclampsia" they suddenly discovered. I was not going to spend my whole labor fighting for what I had wanted even though I had a clear signed birth plan and copies that the nurses didn't even bother to look at, asking for an hour to get off the machines and into a tub, having my Dh throw himself between cord and Dr holding the clamp because she "forgot" about delayed cord clamping (he succeeded), getting 'standard' post partum pitocin without my prior knowledge..I could go on.

I'm not going to chance going through all of that based on the slight likely hood that something beyond anyone's control and no one's fault could happen.

My experiences have obviously helped to shape my opinion, likewise have yours. You're no longer comfortable with home birth, and I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, though I disagree with your conclusion that because there's a slight risk of something going wrong in a low risk preg, period, it's better to suggest the blanket solution of "hospital is the place to be".

Again, I do wish women had more options available. The sad truth is informed women are still rare, think hospital birth is the norm and were brought up to believe that birth is a scary event to be saved from. I sense changes happening and more women being informed, but the climate is more volatile I think. Just look at the climbing c-section rate in the USA.

Quote:

getting back to my earlier question do most of you choose h/b because
a/ you want to avoid the bad things associated with hospitals

or b/ you're drawn to birthing in your home, in your nest, like you might be drawn to chocolate and cheese as a pregnancy craving.
Honestly, both for me. Bad things associated with hospitals happened to me, and when the pressure was on me during my second pregnancy, I meditated one night to try to relieve the extreme mental and in turn physical stress I was under, and it became clearer and clearer that I wanted to be alone. Thinking about being alone in labor brought me an inner peace that I had never felt before.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DoomaYula* 
I had a pph with my homebirth. It sucks, but it's a risk and I knew it was a risk when I chose to homebirth. I transferred after the baby was born for appropriate medical care. But I didn't go until I knew I needed more than what could be done at home. And even having had a pph, I will give birth at home again (if we have more kids), fully knowing the risks.

I had a mild PPH with my last birth. research and listening to my intuition and my body's signals (I also suspect that taking alfalfa prenatally played a part) is what kept it mild. I knew what to do, I didn't pass out, and I got through it. It was sort of "funny", I went into total take charge objective mode when I realized I was feeling dizzy.

Just a side note, because I disagree with you, the OP, doesn't mean I am attacking you. I think it's brave of you to share your story here, and hey, I'm glad you did.









Ok my kids are hungry, have to stop rambling!


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## pannacotta (Jul 25, 2006)

yes. basically any scarring in the uterus can (in some women) logically cause problems later on. i believe studies on accreta do show a link among the risk factors. if i were an ob i'd look very carefully at the placenta-uterus interface in any woman who's had anything done to her uterus. mri can pick up some cases, ultrasound not as well but any case picked up beforehand makes for a better outcome, or at least more prepared docs.. blood ready, extra help on hand etc. sometimes the placenta is just left in the uterus to naturally be reabsorbed if it just won't come out and you don't want to yank it out and cause bleeding, there's been some success with that technique. 'course it won't work if you're already bleeding but not everyone does.

re the stats and all the papers cited.

1/

yes i believe most countries in europe have i believe better birth outcomes in general (this may be too broad a statement) and this is probably due to socialize medicine more than anything else. by this i mean healthcare is free for all, so women get care throughout their pregnancies from midwives (with ob's if unusual probs), there are midwives at births. holland i believe has the best outcomes anywhere, with 30% or so of women birthing at home with midwives.

there's also a feeling that birth is a natural process, it's a rite of passage and so on. (which i support). the flip side is in many countries in europe you must request an epidural ahead of time, have a little interview on why you want it because many hospitals don't have 24/7 epidurals available.

i'm from europe actually and i'd found a great 'birthing home within hospital' place i had planned to go to to give birth in my country, had plane ticket and everything, but then for family sickness reasons i couldn't go back at that time.. so i chose the next best thing here.

we can't really compare one country with another in this sense, because the US for-profit system is so different and serves a population of women from rich to poor, some who've had no healthcare because they can't afford it, (and so more probs that might have been caught pre birth).

europe is trying to reign in healthcare costs too, and while i know in holland midwives still visit the woman at home after birth (whether she birthed at home or not) for a couple of weeks i believe (they clean, cook, look after mum and baby,help with breastfeeding etc), in england this service is being cut back dramatically and women in many areas dont' have access to it. (look on guardian.co.uk).

re the statistics. the only way you could design a study would be a prospective one, randomly assigning low risk women to birth at home or hospital and then compare the outcomes. and that's obviously can't be done.

also i'm very aware that hospitals cause many of the problems they then 'rescue' you from in birth, hence i think it pays to go in prepared and knowing what you will accept (because you've done a lot of research) and what you will not. and have a support person who can be a friend, doula or anyone who is willing to offer the best support.

if you don't accept routine interventions in hospitals then all they are saving you from is existing problems that manifest themselves within those 4 walls. you don't have to accept routine vaginal exams (which can track infection up and cause fever in the mother and danger to the baby), you don't have to lie in a certain position, or accept iv fluids and pitocin and you can certainly say no to cytotec induction which esp in women who've had c-sections can cause uterine ruptures..

i mean you can can say no and they must respect that, but because you will be in labor i think you need a person to advocate for you while you sit there wearing earplugs or music and don't get distracted from what you're there to do.

i was taking little steps around the bed- despite the epidural - as i felt my legs and felt stable. my husband was right behind me to catch me if i happened to suddenly faint (possible effect of epidural). yet a bossy nurse stormed in, saw this and lectured me on how i had to lie down. i saw i will not and after more hassle she left. she can't make me do anything.

re statistics again. studies can prove that home or hospital is safe 99% of the time (and to the poster who asked, i'm using 99% as a figurative number to say 'in the vast majority of cases' since every study will come up with a new number and i can't cite them all), BUT if you are in that 1% you risk more by being away from a hospital.

it's all about risk and what you accept of it. most of us drive - we accept the risk that even if we are perfect drivers, a crazy person can hit us and kill us.

but in the case of birth we can *lower* our risk by going somewhere where there's a safety net (until my utopian 'birthing homes run by midwives in hospitals' is established  ) and in something so important as birth i think we should consider if the risk of voluntarily doing without a safety net is worth it.

the complications that hit you without warning are rare - look at the Farm outcomes - they have been in business for decades (i seriously thought of going there actually, have incredible respect for ina may) and they have never had a maternal death. they have been lucky and i hope they continue to be, they are very skilled and experienced but they can't predict everything sadly.

i believe the higher risk of death at home in the case of rare unpredictable complications has such horrible consequences for a family - motherless baby, sad partner, other siblings etc - that it's not worth it. you can manage what is done to you in a hospital. by law you can say no to anything if you're consicous, but you can't manage the outcomes in the case of a rare problem that may kill you anyway whether home or hospital, but less likely to kill you if intensive medical help is right there. it's no guarantee, but i believe it lowers the risk and this is such a great even in anyone's life.

so i'm not really comparing the 'intervention heavy' hospital birth with homebirth, that would show such a list of hospital-caused problems there's be no room to write them, but i'm saying consider managing your hospital birth exactly as you want, with no routine interventions, sitting in the position you want, etc etc. visit the hospital beforehand, figure out how it works, how to get around things, find an Ob you gel with and pump them for info (since you prob can't guarantee they'll be on call that day) find what they routinely do and what they might insist on more. be prepared, you can say no to things just as you can say no to the car repair guy who wants to tack on lots of extra jobs 

happy saturday to all

it's no guarantee, i'm well aware of how fragile life is.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:

ok let me ask something i've been thinking about..

if such a place - totally homebirth like place - existed *within* a hospital (same floor as regular L&D), staffed by midwives, with tubs, showers, soft lighting, family members allowed, birth balls, massage, music, no compulsory limits on stages of labor, no 'routine ivs' no ban on food and drink etc ..whatever you would have at homebirth you have it here..just not in the 4 walls of your home

would you birth there?
No. I had a hospital transfer with my first, and the car ride was complete hell, and my hospital is pretty much what you described there.

I birth at home because it is comfortable, normal, no stress, and many, many other reasons which I cannot begin to list at the moment, and it has nothing to do with crappy hospitals.


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## pannacotta (Jul 25, 2006)

thanks to everyone for replying btw. i knew there's be a range of views when i wrote and i don't feel attacked - it's not about me after all, but about what we're talking about. so keep 'em coming..

peace


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

what about the cases where interventions (especially cesareans) are forced on women via doctors getting courts involved? VBAC has fewer possible problems than a repeat cesarean, but many hospitals don't allow for vbac, and yes, they can force surgery on you if you show up in labor, even if everything's going perfectly. Also, doctors can be very coercive (pull the "bad mommy" card) if the see a possibility of anything going wrong or EVEN if you've been laboring most of the day and they're ready to go home. They call it "failure to progress", but what it usually is (no not every time...) is coersion to do things their way.


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## roadfamily6now (Sep 14, 2006)

Quote:

Quote:
The way I see it, you listened to your gut, and that's a very valuable thing. You felt something was very wrong, insisted that there was something not right, and went to the hospital. I haven't met any women who would do otherwise. Your point is moot, IMO.

This is exactly what I was thinking as I read the story. This is a story that supports homebirth. OP, you felt something was wrong and you transferred. In fact, your body gave you good clues that something was wrong. How does this make homebirth any less safe?

Additionally, who's to say that everyone has a good outcome with accreta - even if they ARE in the hospital? In your case, they were doing everything they could, yet it wasn't working so it still seems that it is only through the grace of god/luck/whatever you want to call it, that got you through it alive. Wouldn't you say?

And of course the flip side of this is, how many extremely rare but life-threatening situations occur as a result of being in the hospital? I think you could point out a number of things which happen purely as a result of having been in the hospital, that happen 1 in 60,000. Like acquiring an infection that significantly debilitates or kills the mom or baby. No one (well, except us maybe ) tries to say that a hospital is a dangerous place to have a baby because of those extremely rare things.

Edited to add: hopefully you don't see this as attacking you! It must have been an awful and scary situation for you, and I'm really happy for you that you trusted your intuition and had a midwife you respected you!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by Contented73 : Yesterday at 10:49 PM.

This is exactly what I was thinking.


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## pannacotta (Jul 25, 2006)

yes those happen - i'm actually looking into this now, how often it happens, in what circumstances and so on and for sure there are some bad sadistic docs out there like in any job. and there are also women who make mistakes too should take that c section to save the life of the baby and they do not. it works both ways. docs are not always right, and women are not always right.

it's hard, because it takes energy to go up against an expert (in any job) when our focus is elsewhere. and experts are not perfect, just as women's intuition is not perfect.

i think it should never come to a court ordered c section. it's terrible and suggests there's been a breakdown of communication and trust so bad that you have to reach for the law in such an intimate moment.

i know many hospitals aren't allowing vbacs (hey i'm due with #2 in a few months..and guess what.. they want a scheduled section, but i've made it clear that's not going to happen. i'll labor at home, then in hospital and do everything i can to have a normal birth.) and i'm sorry if you're in an area where there really area none that allow this. i do have a vbac choice (albeit under pressure) but if i didn't i think i'd go somewhere i did, it's that important to me.

the vbac-c section problem is another topic however  i'd be surprised if there were a whole area of a state (i.e. you have no choice) where ALL hospitals immediately get a court order for a c section the minute a woman shows up in labor wanting a vbac, though i imagine if their 'policy' is to ban them women in the area know this and stay at home as much as possible or pick the friendliest of the anti-vbac hospitals..

it's sad that it's come to this. i agree with you. and i agree that c sections carry their own physical risks, not to mention mental effects that can strike some women who hadn't been planning on one. (of course some people also don't care, they just want the baby. i'm not one of them.)


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
if you don't accept routine interventions in hospitals then all they are saving you from is existing problems that manifest themselves within those 4 walls.

re statistics again. studies can prove that home or hospital is safe 99% of the time (and to the poster who asked, i'm using 99% as a figurative number to say 'in the vast majority of cases' since every study will come up with a new number and i can't cite them all), BUT if you are in that 1% you risk more by being away from a hospital.

but in the case of birth we can *lower* our risk by going somewhere where there's a safety net (until my utopian 'birthing homes run by midwives in hospitals' is established  ) and in something so important as birth i think we should consider if the risk of voluntarily doing without a safety net is worth it.

My problem with your argument is that it assumes you can go to a hospital, decline interventions, and have a normal birth. That's not always how it works, even in a very supportive hospital environment.

I had a hospital birth with my son, attended by a midwife, in a place that had birthing balls and waterbirth tubs and squat bars. Frankly, it was nicer than my apartment at the time.







No one ever tried to coerce or scare me into anything. I arrived at 'the perfect time'- 6cm, well into active labor. The second I walked in the door, my contractions went "pfft" and I didn't have another good one until six or seven hours later when we had my membranes ruptured and then started pitocin.

Women/mammals are biochemically evolved to birth in a familar environment. My body *will not* labor somewhere strange, around people I don't know. I was lucky, in that the interventions I had didn't lead to any serious complications. But for *me*, to attempt to give birth in a hosptial is likely to require "help", which then jumps me right into the intervention-laden-c-section-prone, more likely to have something awful happen to me or my baby, sort of catagory. And I can't be the only woman like this!

I don't think anyone can deny that sometimes, a low-risk woman births in a hospital and the fact that medical attention is there saves her or her baby's life. Thank goodness you *were* there! But I think it's far, far more likely for a low-risk woman birthing in a hospital to end up losing her life or her baby than if she was at home: even *if* she is educated about interventions. Because changing your environment is in and of itself the FIRST intervention, and in some cases it can be enough to start that cascade that ends up with failure to progress/fetal distress/c-section.


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## pannacotta (Jul 25, 2006)

again, you can *manage* what is done to you in a hospital. you can say no to anything, you can literally have no one touch you from the minute you get in. you have to consent to anything - though it's not always made clear.. 

you can't manage your chances of an emergency- a real one i mean, not something that gives you time to transfer.


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## Ladybyrd (Sep 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
words about refusing routine procedures...

Yes, but a mother in labor shouldn't have to fight to be left alone. She shouldn't have to fight to NOT have her labor managed. A mother in labor does not need to be additionally stressed - this in itself can interfere with a normal birth. Heck, just being in a strange place (like, say, a hospital) is enough to stop some labors.

Saying, 'just wear earplugs and have someone advocate for you' isn't going to work. When I'm in labor, I don't want strange people in my room. I'm going to notice if my birth support team is arguing with someone; and not only that, others cannot refuse procedures FOR you - you have to refuse them yourself.

It's just not that easy.

Quote:

but in the case of birth we can *lower* our risk by going somewhere where there's a safety net (until my utopian 'birthing homes run by midwives in hospitals' is established  ) and in something so important as birth i think we should consider if the risk of voluntarily doing without a safety net is worth it.
I think this illustrates the point that you're missing, though. Being at the hospital does NOT lower our risk, unless the pregnancy is a high risk one. The studies show that the mortality rate of homebirth vs. hospital birth is _about the same_; however, the _morbity_ rate is much lower in a homebirth. If the mortality rate is the same for either place, that means that being at a hospital isn't really much of a safety net. For low-risk pregnancies, of course. If the mortality rate is about the same, and the morbity rate is lower at home, you can damn well bet I'll be at home. The hospital is a safety net - _For emergency situations and high risk pregnancies_. Not for normal, low risk pregnancies.

Quote:

i believe the higher risk of death at home in the case of rare unpredictable complications has such horrible consequences for a family - motherless baby, sad partner, other siblings etc - that it's not worth it.
That's just it, though, the risk of death at home is NOT higher.


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## pannacotta (Jul 25, 2006)

i'm glad it turned out ok and you did have a supportive place. maybe the change in place caused the stall, (and so it might not have happened if you'd been there form the start) maybe it would have happened anyway. we just can't know that. but either way by being in the hospital you were somewhere ready for an unexpected bad event.

i'm sure the mind has a lot to do with it...women who feel they can't push the baby out cos they are so tired.. then they see the doc approaching with forceps and they push the baby out.. but we can't prove these things.

and i think you're lucky to live in an area where you did have a friendly sounding hospital environment, so many women don't have that choice and have to fight for what they want, and that's the last thing you have energy for when you're in labor!


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## pannacotta (Jul 25, 2006)

but wouldn't you say that every mother who dies at home (or as a result of having been at home when this happened) of hemorrhage or AFE or every baby who dies of abrupted placenta (can't do a c section at home) would have a better chance in a hospital.

i'm the first to recognize that hospitals CAUSE lots of problems and most obs have never seen a normal birth BUT..

the stats of homebirth vs hospital birth are comparing 'routine hospital births' (with all the bells and whistles) with homebirths.

they aren't comparing 'hospital birth with no routine intervention just like h/b' with homebirth.

that's a hard study to do.

i don't have a list of cause of death following homebirth (and cause of death is tricky, some studies count death of mom or baby in the first month after birth or other longish time interval) and i'd love to find one but it seems to me that some homebirth deaths could be preventable if the mom was in a hospital.

but i'm not advocating the 'procedure happy' hospital approach. far from it, i'm saying an option is to just be in the building and proceed as though we are at home, however we manage to do that.

yes the mom needs to make her wishes very clear before she goes in and when she goes in, maybe tacking a note on the door as my friend did saying 'do not come in, knock once if absolutely necessary' and her husband would go out and deal with whatever it was.

yes she will be distracted at times, but distractions happen at home too, kids crying, doorbells, and so on.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

Thank you for sharing your story. I understand your feelings and your conclusions, but I do not share them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
in the case of sudden rare emergencies, home birth is riskier than hospital birth, i don't think that's up for discussion. i'm not disputing that hospital interventions *cause* many complications, but that's another topic

No, it's really not a different topic. There are deaths that happen outside the hospital that would have been prevented in the hospital, that is true. What is ALSO true, and the reason that isn't a different topic, is that *there are deaths that take place in the hospital that would have been avoided at home*. Deaths from iatrogenic infections, hemorrhage, surgical error, rupture from previous surgeries, etc, etc. We simply cannot predict ahead of time which women will be which - "Oh, you're going to die of an infection, you should stay home" "You're going to abrupt, head to the hospital" It doesn't work like that. *We cannot prevent all birth related deaths.* It's just not possible, even in an ideal world. One of the big differences in philosophy between hospital birth proponents and homebirth proponents is whether we understand and accept that. Hospital proponents, in general, believe that if we just do enough, interfere enough, sacrifice our babies' health and our mental wellbeing, our breastfeeding relationships, our power and autonomy, we can have a guarantee. We can have a symbolic talisman that will protect us. But it's not true - we introduce more risks that way, trade one type of death risk for another. Of course we can and should (and DO) reduce those risks, with prenatal screening, appropriate use of hospitals and medicine, etc. The US as a whole has a LONG way to go in that department. Homebirthers, in general, recognize that there are no guarantees, and we work to maximize our health and wellbeing and minimize our risks, and we refuse to sacrifice real safety and health for a chimera of protection from the rarest and worst consequences.

The risks are too small and the statistics not clear enough to say which is "safer" in terms of pure maternal mortality, but in terms of infant morbidity they are crystal clear: homebirth is safer for most families.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
i think another important question is

is a woman giving birth at home because she wants to avoid the fights over 'routine procedures' she might encounter at the hospital

(because with preparation you can avoid those fights and have someone help you.

No. You can't. There are many, many birth stories posted here where women believed that they could, that if they were just educated enough, strong enough, prepared enough, had enough support, they could avoid all the problems with hospitals. They wouldn't be bullied, they wouldn't be cut, they would be strong and birth their way - but they were wrong. (There are also birth stories of beautiful, strong hospital births - but those are, I would wager, in the minority - but even if "only" 40% of women had hospital births that were traumatic, interventionist, etc, that would be far, far too many.) It is naive to believe that simply because you know what's best, you can avoid all the problems within a large institutional system. Try putting your child in public school, but demanding a class size of 14, all the newest, best textbooks, a lack of bullies or peer pressure or troubled students, full involvement from the parents, the curriculum _you_ want and approve of, etc, etc. It simply won't happen, and it's ridiculous to think you can make it. Of course there are things you can do to improve your odds and your environment in an unfriendly, unscientific, unsupported by the evidence institution, but you simply can't go into McDonald's and get a filet mignon.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
if such a place - totally homebirth like place - existed *within* a hospital (same floor as regular L&D), staffed by midwives, with tubs, showers, soft lighting, family members allowed, birth balls, massage, music, no compulsory limits on stages of labor, no 'routine ivs' no ban on food and drink etc ..whatever you would have at homebirth you have it here..just not in the 4 walls of your home

would you birth there?

No. I would love to see such a place - I think every woman has the _right_ to access to such a place, but it would not be safer or better than homebirth. The first intervention is birth is stepping outside your home. For some women, that intervention is well worth it - their home, for whatever reason, is not the place they feel most comfortable giving birth, and may not be safest, and they have the right to a safe, evidenced-based, women-centered, baby-friendly place to birth. But *simply leaving your house introduces risks*. Driving is risky in and of itself - I would wager that the odds of getting into an accident while driving, especially if your driver is in an anxious state because of your labor, is as high as your risk of catastrophic, unforeseeable problems. In addition, driving in labor is INCREDIBLY uncomfortable, and can interfere with the birth process, positioning the baby in an unfavorable way, stalling or halting labor, stressing out and wearing out the woman, etc. There are also the risks, that will never be avoided, of infection from unfamiliar bacteria or viruses (risks which can be reduced in hospital based locations, but can be avoided entirely by staying home). And it is simply not possible to be observed, to have access to high technology, without interfering, and increasing its use, which introduces its own risks, and has led us to the horrific state of birth in the US today.

So no, I would not use such a place, because there is no reason for me to, and several reasons not to.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *holothuroidea* 
Home birth will never be about "the statistics show us it's safer," anyway. Even if the statistics made a very good case against home birth, most of us would still do it. Why do we even bother to spout these mistruths at people? Reassurance? From what? What monster living under our beds has forced us to recede to believing this nonsense?

I disagree. For me, homebirth is in large part because it is safer, possibly not for me, but definitely for my baby, and for our relationship. I agree with what you say about the manipulatability of statistics, but I disagree that to state what I believe to be the best interpretation of the statistics available is "spouting a mistruth".


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

I am sorry for what happened to you.

I am trying to find the right way to phrase this, it's hard to convey the right tone when you're typing sometimes, so let me just say up front I mean this in a respectful and gentle tone; the idea that a life-threatening situation could occur during homebirth and that emergency medical care will not be available fast enough is not exactly a new, or unheard of argument against homebirth. I'm assuming (and I could be wrong) that you, yourself, considered this possibility before attempting a HB and somehow came to peace with it, but that those feelings changed once it actually happened to you and the small chance became a big reality.

I get that, and I understand it, but I think what you may not realize is that many/most of us who are proponents of HB (thought I personally had a necessary hospital birth)- the risks are simply worth the benefits. In other words, we're more willing to take our chances with an unforeseen but life-threatening or fatal complication due to being at home, rather than choosing to enter the hospital and fight, or trust our partner/doula to fight, every intervention from beginning to end with the possibility of simply being in the hospital leading to maternal or fetal death (and this DOES happen, especially with unnecessary c-sections). You said no, and the nurse listened, and that's good, but it doesn't happen that way all the time _by a long shot_.

The hospital is not a safety net. It's a tangled net that's often more like an obstacle course to a safe delivery. It's great that you were there when you needed to be. There are others who have experienced the opposite.

If you want to be in the hospital next time, that's understandable and fine for you- but to warn everyone else to go there "just in case" really doesn't take into consideration the millions of complications that occur because of the OB industry.


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## homewithtwinsmama (Jan 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
ok let me ask something i've been thinking about..

if such a place - totally homebirth like place - existed *within* a hospital (same floor as regular L&D), staffed by midwives, with tubs, showers, soft lighting, family members allowed, birth balls, massage, music, no compulsory limits on stages of labor, no 'routine ivs' no ban on food and drink etc ..whatever you would have at homebirth you have it here..just not in the 4 walls of your home

would you birth there?

getting back to my earlier question do most of you choose h/b because
a/ you want to avoid the bad things associated with hospitals

or b/ you're drawn to birthing in your home, in your nest, like you might be drawn to chocolate and cheese as a pregnancy craving.


I have birthed twice in hosp and twice at home. In this order: Hosp., home, Hosp., home. I will never birth in a hospital by choice. I was only there when I was because things were not safe for being at home two of the times (pre-eclamsia once, and once very preemie twins). It is not about the tub or the birth ball. It is about protocol. Midwives in hospitals do not have the RIGHT to act like midwives in the way I believe midwifery should be practiced. I feel safe and labor effectively at home. At the hosp. I found the pain was much worse and my fear made me panicky. I HATE the strangers that come in and out at will. I also had my only infant loss in the hospital. There is no magic at the hospital and as Ina May Gaskin has been drawing attention to--far too many women are dying IN hospital as a result of mistakes and unnecessary intervention. I have had a few bad complications at home births I have assisted, but we knew how to handle them, got mama to the hospital and got her the emergency care she needed. To me the percentage of risk of the very rare complications of which you speak are much smaller than the percentage of risk of a hosp. doing potentially harmful interventions. Nothing in life is without risk, but each mother has to weigh what risks make her the most fearful and which she will take. For me, unless clearly required in a given circumstance, the risks of being in the hosp far outweigh being at home. Right now in my area we have an increasing epidemic of MRSA infections on the OB wards in a certain area. Would I risk that for myself and my baby if I had no other risk factors - no way! I support your right to be at the hosp if that is where you feel safe. Do you support my right to be where I feel safe?


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## DoomaYula (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
again, you can *manage* what is done to you in a hospital. you can say no to anything, you can literally have no one touch you from the minute you get in.

_*WHERE*_ does such a hospital exist? I mean, seriously?!?!?!?

IME, as a hospital birther AND as a hospital doula, a laboring mom in a hospital can't *manage* jackpoop. We're talking about a woman who is experiencing a profound physical and mental and emotional experience -- and some women are not assertive by nature during the easiest of times! -- and, if she says NO NO NO, there's the possibility of getting the authorities involved, threats can be made to her about her child's health, well-being...

A doula is not the answer! We can't make decisions for the mom. We can't argue with the staff. We can't say NO. And it's not our job anyway.

I realize the op had a traumatic experience but let's quit pretending the hospital birth in the USA is a benign democracy, shall we?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
my diagnosis was formally 'placenta accreta', meaning the placenta was embedded too deeply into the uterus.
<snip>
most women lose their uterus with this, about 10-20% die (check the stats, i'm doing this from memory). you can lose most of the blood in your body in 5-10 minutes.
<snip>
accreta is happening more and more as women have more c sections and thus have more scar tissue where the placenta can dig in too deep, but i'd never had a c section.

This part alone makes me really wonder about your stance on homebirth. More and more women are experiencing accretas, due to surgeries performed on them _at_ the hospital. You cite a death rate from this of 10-20% (I haven't researched it recently myself). That means - flat out - that doctors are killing women by performing c-sections for medically "prudent" and/or completely unwarranted reasons...yet we're safer in the hospital?? I've had four c-sections, and my risk for placenta accreta in my next pregnancy is now considerably greater than 1 in 60,000...because of what's been done to my body _in the hospital_. If I suffer an accreta next time, and I go through what you did, then that's 1 to 1. Birth isn't safe - not 100% safe - no matter where you do it. (Of course, _nothing_ is 100% safe.)

My last section was done because of the condition of the baby in utero (he died). My first three were _all_ done, because the doctors were afraid of what _might_ happen in labour (1 & 2 - both breech) or before labour (3 - "overdue"). None of those babies were in any distress of any kind, yet I have a drastically increased risk of dying because they were "saved" in the fashion they were.

Quote:

my point is this.. there are some obstetric emergencies that can kill you wherever you are but you stand a much better chance in the hospital. one of these is accreta, another is amniotic fluid embolism (the biggest killer of women in birth. i had a mild form of this too), another is a ruptured uterus (yes you have warning sometimes that this is happening, but sometimes it's sudden and the baby would die before you were able to get to the hospital.)
And, oddly enough, these problem are all more likely to occur after a c-section, which is more likely to happen in the first place if you start out at the hospital.

Quote:

these things are RARE, very rare, incredibly rare (i think accreta is something like 1/60,000 births)
I wish my risk of accreta was 1/60,000. It was, once upon a time.

Quote:

in the complications i listed above there's sadly nothing you can do at a homebirth - manually compressing the uterus to stop bleeding would not have stopped it in my case (the docs had the whole uterus in their hands and squeezing like crazy.. nothing..),
I'm still a little confused, as you _had_ planned a homebirth, and you did transfer, and you did make it. I haven't met anybody, here or IRL, who thinks women should never transfer if things don't feel right (although I do know that if things had turned out well for you, there are plenty would Monday morning quarterback, which sucks).

Quote:

BUT i believe it's also the responsibility of every woman to prepare herself by reading and studying and asking questions about all the things a hospital will want to do and how you can refuse those you don't think are necessary
<snip>
we don't need to choose the hospital and just throw up our hands and be helpless and feel that the process is out of our hands. it isn't - WE are still in control and making decisions, or at least we should be.
Yes, we should be.
When I was in labour with Aaron, I was in a _lot_ of pain. His heart stopped beating, and the OB went and got a new monitor. I thought she was going to take me for a c-section, but instead, she got an ultrasound machine, and started using that. I was trying to tell her to do a section, but she was pushing down on my belly with the ultrasound and I couldn't talk - I could only moan/scream with pain. After some period of time (I have _no_ idea how long), she screamed in my face that we needed to do a section NOW - as she'd finally stopped stabbing me (that's how it felt), I was able to get out "do it"...and was wheeled off to OR for an emergency section, and got to hold my baby's corpse shortly afterwards. Sure - I "should" have been in control, but when someone is performing procedures on you that feel like you are being stabbed in the stomach, it's a little hard to talk, yk?

Oh - and my first cesarean was performed while I said, "no, I don't want a c-section - NO - NO - I don't want one" over and over again. It was also an "emergency", but there was actually no urgency...baby was doing well, and my waters hadn't even broken. So, yeah - I could have asked all the questions I wanted. I couldt refuse, but it didn't mean much, because they _ignored_ it.

In an ideal world, I agree with you that it would be great to have the emergency equipment available in a non-abusive environment, just in case. That's not the way it is in the hospital, though, and comparing what hospital birth _could_ be to what a homebirth _is_ makes for an apples vs. oranges comparison.

I'll be scheduling a repeat next time. I'm not happy about it, but that's just the way it is. I'm more terrified than I've ever been in my life.


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## Ladybyrd (Sep 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
No, it's really not a different topic. There are deaths that happen outside the hospital that would have been prevented in the hospital, that is true. What is ALSO true, and the reason that isn't a different topic, is that *there are deaths that take place in the hospital that would have been avoided at home*. Deaths from iatrogenic infections, hemorrhage, surgical error, rupture from previous surgeries, etc, etc. We simply cannot predict ahead of time which women will be which - "Oh, you're going to die of an infection, you should stay home" "You're going to abrupt, head to the hospital" It doesn't work like that. *We cannot prevent all birth related deaths.*

This. Also, as far as this:

Quote:

but i'm not advocating the 'procedure happy' hospital approach. far from it, i'm saying an option is to just be in the building and proceed as though we are at home, however we manage to do that.

yes the mom needs to make her wishes very clear before she goes in and when she goes in, maybe tacking a note on the door as my friend did saying 'do not come in, knock once if absolutely necessary' and her husband would go out and deal with whatever it was.
It's a nice thought, but it just doesn't play out in the real world. My first birth I refused AROM - or tried to, and they just held me down and did it anyway, with my husband right there. Because it "had to be done". They cut my episiotomy _while_ I was screaming "DON'T CUT ME!!" for my 6 lb. baby.

There is no way to walk in and have a birth proceed just as if you were at home - firstly, because you are NOT at home. They have their administrative procedures and their standard medical procedures, and they will push them, _even if you refuse_. And they'll be only too happy to whip out the 'dead baby' card if you refuse to vehemently.

I cannot tell you how stressful my hospital births were - even the one where I _thought_ my OB was on board with refused procedures _still_ required me to argue with the staff and have them call her to verify. That is a hassle no laboring woman needs.


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

pannacotta,

You are really brave for posting this here! I do have to agree with you, although I am a minority here. I don't think home births should be outlawed by any means, though. Women should have a choice. I feel there are way too many "what if's" when it comes to delivery. If you live across the street from a hospital, a homebirth is most likely safe. For others, like me, who live in the boonies, there is no way I would chance it. My dd would have died if she were not born in the hospital. I had a textbook perfect pregnancy. I am glad I was there. Laboring in the hospital sucked, though. I am obviously glad I was in the hospital or I would not have my dd. My experience made me choose another hospital birth when I became pregnant with my ds. Although I was not dealing with laboring in the hospital again. I walked around the hospital all day in labor without going near the OB unit. I never called the midwife to tell her I was in labor. I walked from waiting room to waiting room watching TV and reading magazines. I showed up to the OB unit about 15 minutes before it was time to push. There wasn't time for any interventions of any kind. Not an IV, nothing. Just a quick cervical exam. Get the room ready, get a gown on, and get to business. It was great. I was physically in the hospital if I suspected a problem, but I didn't have to deal with any of the issues women complain about with having a hospital birth. If I have another child, I plan on doing that again. What I did worked well for me, but I understand that others wouldn't be happy to sit in a waiting room or walk the halls while in transition. I feel I didn't have a wonderful relaxing labor with candles and hot showers and massages, but it would have been more stressful if I were admitted earlier. But I had the peace of mind that if there were a problem with me or my ds there would be no waiting involved. Thankfully, other than a nuchal cord, neither of us required intervention this time.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Hmm ... yeah this girl has some cajones








...

I had an unassisted homebirth. I would do so again, as long as I felt - as I did last time - that things were going right. I think everything non-UAV'ing has already been said really







... but I want to add that, no, to answer your question, if there was a birth center that was "just like home" would I deliver there... if I thought I was high-risk ~ maybe. But the point is that when you deliver at home you deliver on your own terms, surrounded by your own personal set of germs to which you've developed an immunity ~ an immunity which is passed through the mama's milk... you're giving your baby the best shot at life! When you birth in any other area, you are doing so on other authority's terms, surrounded by other germs, which compromises not only your baby's health but your own. And that to me is not worth it.

What you said is, admittedly, extremely rare. Which means to me that this is no reason whatsoever that women should choose to birth in any other place than their home.


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## so_blessed (Dec 24, 2007)

Thanks for posting this. I have GD, so always have hospital births, and have had good experience with MWs delivering in the hospital. I do like the assurance that if something happens to me or the baby, I have access to emergency medical care there. I still think homebirths are so great for those who can have them.....that would be my ideal if I had a choice.


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## Daniel's Kitty (Nov 18, 2006)

You went to the hospital when you felt you needed, and it was the right thing to do.
But
I am also not sure how it would help a lot of women. I had a hospital birth, I saw my nurse a few times during my entire labor, I was on pitocin and I had an epidural. When I was throwing up on myself and couldn't control it I couldn't get my nurse no matter my paging. I finally got another nurse about five minutes later, so if something had been wrong at that time how would it have helped?

And if someone is having a vaginal birth in the hospital there would be no way to get them into the Or in time to stop the bleeding. There are risks with birth and when we get pregnant we have to accept that there are risks with it.


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## nashvillemidwife (Dec 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
but in the case of birth we can *lower* our risk by going somewhere where there's a safety net

You have already stated that going to the hospital means being exposed to interventions. Are you saying that those interventions can never put you at risk for life-threatening complications?


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## nashvillemidwife (Dec 2, 2007)

Sorry, for some reason it's not letting me edit that last post.

(And now it has)


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## Luv2Skydive (Mar 4, 2008)

The only thing the OP proved to me is that if we listen to our bodies, they won't steer us wrong! They are smarter and know more than any doctor out there and bless you for listening to it when it was screaming: "WARNING: Something isn't RIGHT!". I'm glad you shared your experience, because it could help someone in the future, but I didn't get from it that hospitals are safer, only that women's intuition (which we all have) is the BEST birth tool we have at our disposal, no matter where we give birth.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daniel's Kitty* 
And if someone is having a vaginal birth in the hospital there would be no way to get them into the Or in time to stop the bleeding. There are risks with birth and when we get pregnant we have to accept that there are risks with it.









:

Aaron died inside me, and once they got him out, the OR team spent 15 minutes trying to resuscitate him. It didn't work. I was in a hospital and had been for a couple of hours (although that part seems to be forgotten by those who didn't like my choices). My baby still died. They got me in there _fast_ - really fast. I thought my first c/s was an insane, panic-stricken, chaotic event, and it was a leisurely stroll in the park compared to my fourth one. It was still too late. I doubt they could have saved me if I'd hemorrhaged badly.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Luv2Skydive* 
The only thing the OP proved to me is that if we listen to our bodies, they won't steer us wrong! They are smarter and know more than any doctor out there and bless you for listening to it when it was screaming: "WARNING: Something isn't RIGHT!".

I have to say that I truly believed that would be the case with me, and it wasn't. I had no feeling that something was wrong at all, until _after_ we got to the hospital, and that was more tension and fear about being there than it was intuition.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Storm Bride,







s I remember.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Arwyn

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
yes i believe most countries in europe have i believe better birth outcomes in general (this may be too broad a statement) and this is probably due to socialize medicine more than anything else. by this i mean healthcare is free for all, so women get care throughout their pregnancies from midwives (with ob's if unusual probs), there are midwives at births. holland i believe has the best outcomes anywhere, with 30% or so of women birthing at home with midwives.

Actually I think it's higher. I have to do some research. I saw it, just need to figure out where...

Either way, the US has a horrid infant and maternal death rate and yet we are one of the only countries where midwives are not regularly used. Corrolation?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
there's also a feeling that birth is a natural process, it's a rite of passage and so on. (which i support). the flip side is in many countries in europe you must request an epidural ahead of time, have a little interview on why you want it because many hospitals don't have 24/7 epidurals available.

Good. Epidurals carry many side effects and serious issues that are best avoided. And yes, I had one (intrathecal) with all those glorious issues. I believe they should be more limited. Not having a doctor or nurse bully you into one.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
if you don't accept routine interventions in hospitals then all they are saving you from is existing problems that manifest themselves within those 4 walls. you don't have to accept routine vaginal exams (which can track infection up and cause fever in the mother and danger to the baby), you don't have to lie in a certain position, or accept iv fluids and pitocin and you can certainly say no to cytotec induction which esp in women who've had c-sections can cause uterine ruptures..

i mean you can can say no and they must respect that, but because you will be in labor i think you need a person to advocate for you while you sit there wearing earplugs or music and don't get distracted from what you're there to do.

This is where you are so very, very wrong. Most people can not do this. You are being very idealistic. Ask the population even here on MDC that have had hospital births to see if they allow you to refuse services or bully you into it or get court orders. An alarming amount I can guarantee you.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
but in the case of birth we can *lower* our risk by going somewhere where there's a safety net (until my utopian 'birthing homes run by midwives in hospitals' is established  ) and in something so important as birth i think we should consider if the risk of voluntarily doing without a safety net is worth it.

the complications that hit you without warning are rare - look at the Farm outcomes - they have been in business for decades (i seriously thought of going there actually, have incredible respect for ina may) and they have never had a maternal death. they have been lucky and i hope they continue to be, they are very skilled and experienced but they can't predict everything sadly.

i believe the higher risk of death at home in the case of rare unpredictable complications has such horrible consequences for a family - motherless baby, sad partner, other siblings etc - that it's not worth it. you can manage what is done to you in a hospital. by law you can say no to anything if you're consicous, but you can't manage the outcomes in the case of a rare problem that may kill you anyway whether home or hospital, but less likely to kill you if intensive medical help is right there. it's no guarantee, but i believe it lowers the risk and this is such a great even in anyone's life.

Those risks are there no matter WHERE you are. Period. Having worked in infertility and also in the hospital on the floor, let me tell you that just b/c that fancy equipment is there does NOT mean you are safer. Sure once in a blue moon they are truly needed and truly do save a life. But how many are sacrificed before then for the name of convenience or just irresponsibility? The rates of medical malpractice deaths alone should tell you that one. Every woman has a right to decide where she will give birth. Every.single.one. Your body is yours. Noone can or should make that decision for you but yourself. You can spend your life in a bubble in the hospital and desperately pray that you don't get MRSA or another hospital-driven infection, but that doesn't make life any safer.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
again, you can *manage* what is done to you in a hospital. you can say no to anything, you can literally have no one touch you from the minute you get in. you have to consent to anything - though it's not always made clear.. 

you can't manage your chances of an emergency- a real one i mean, not something that gives you time to transfer.

How very wrong you are again. Why will noone (a broad noone) listen to the numbers of women who have had CPS called on them? Been held down, birthraped, assaulted... I know we don't want to believe it but it is a common experience.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
but wouldn't you say that every mother who dies at home (or as a result of having been at home when this happened) of hemorrhage or AFE or every baby who dies of abrupted placenta (can't do a c section at home) would have a better chance in a hospital.

What if...that is the question, isn't it? What if I didn't listen to my doctor who insisted my baby was too big so they induced me and he was premature with long lasting health issues? What if I would have given birth at home instead of having my placenta literally ripped out of me so that I wouldn't go into shock and have seizures? What if...my cousin didn't go to work that day and get into a car accident??

Life is never predictable. That's life. Plain and simple you can't predict everything. Hospitals are there for emergencies. Not for just in cases. And isn't AFE actually more common with women who have been induced? Specifically with Cytotec? Your baby could die from your abrupted placenta even in the hospital. They are not always known until after the fact.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
i don't have a list of cause of death following homebirth (and cause of death is tricky, some studies count death of mom or baby in the first month after birth or other longish time interval) and i'd love to find one but it seems to me that some homebirth deaths could be preventable if the mom was in a hospital.

And more could have lived if they weren't in the hospital. Be fair.


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## Luv2Skydive (Mar 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I have to say that I truly believed that would be the case with me, and it wasn't. I had no feeling that something was wrong at all, until _after_ we got to the hospital, and that was more tension and fear about being there than it was intuition.









I'm sorry......sometimes I doubt my own ability to act on my intuition and pray it's there for me (and that I'm able to really HEAR it) when it counts.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

I'm trying to find stats for placenta accreta deaths and getting rates from 4-33%

http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=1327

Most common is 1 in 15 just from bleeding with increased risk depending on procedure used once found.

http://www.aboundingjoy.com/insstats.htm (Homebirth studies)


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Pannacotta, I strongly suggest that you read Fyrestorm's birth story on these forums.

She sued the hospital and won because of the way she was treated during her one and only birth. She told the hospital staff to not touch her also.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=668204


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## janasmama (Feb 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
my point is this.. there are some obstetric emergencies that can kill you wherever you are but you stand a much better chance in the hospital. one of these is accreta, another is amniotic fluid embolism (the biggest killer of women in birth. i had a mild form of this too), another is a ruptured uterus (yes you have warning sometimes that this is happening, but sometimes it's sudden and the baby would die before you were able to get to the hospital.) and that's not to mention sudden problems with the baby that can happen.a mom.

Well, I just want to say that it's obvious that women know these obstetric emergencies exist and that is why the majority of people who are planning a homebirth stay flexible and will transport when advised by a midwife or their body.

You were smart and I'm sure your midwife helped you make the decision to transport also. Your planned homebirth was safe because you transported, now you exist in the very small number (maybe 8%) of women who have to transport.

I also want to mention about a uterus rupture. I had a friend who had 2 c-sections, was pregnant with her third, her uterus ruptured at 30 weeks, she drove over an hour to the hospital, the hospital had her wait in the waiting room for quite sometime because they were "busy" and all the L&D was full. She was just fine and so was the baby. Yes, some people die instantly (probably very few) but God has made our bodies to be wonderful works of art that can do amazing things in times of physical trauma.

I'm saddened that you have pushed homebirth out of your mind, especially after reading and investigation so much about it. If you have more children I hope you will reevaluate the situation and see that this was an isolated situation and your next pregnancy probably won't have the same problems.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:

Those risks are there no matter WHERE you are. Period. Having worked in infertility and also in the hospital on the floor, let me tell you that just b/c that fancy equipment is there does NOT mean you are safer. Sure once in a blue moon they are truly needed and truly do save a life. But how many are sacrificed before then for the name of convenience or just irresponsibility? The rates of medical malpractice deaths alone should tell you that one. Every woman has a right to decide where she will give birth. Every.single.one. Your body is yours. Noone can or should make that decision for you but yourself. You can spend your life in a bubble in the hospital and desperately pray that you don't get MRSA or another hospital-driven infection, but that doesn't make life any safer.
Exactly.

Yes some women are better off to birth in a hospital, but not every woman.

Home birth is about way more than no interventions.

I had a severe hemorrhage with my first that was not responsive to any meds and required a d&c, but I still home birthed with my second.


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## saintmom (Aug 19, 2003)

Fight or flight is a powerful thing.Having birthed 4 in hospitals with mw I should have felt safe,I had that safety net right?Instead I would give birth precipitously and leave as soon as possible.I felt elated,anxious,scared.

I've birthed 3 at home.I took my time.I felt safe.

You should be so very proud of yourself for listening to your gut and acting on that knowledge.I'm glad you're still here to share the conversation with us.

It'd be nice if there were that safe place to give birth.The reality is it seems much more like some cavalier game of dice that most of us make it and some of us don't and those of us who survive by the skin of our teeth wonder why.

My DIL lost 15 pts of blood and her uterus when the grandbabies were born due to a botched c-section in a military hospital ( you can't sue) she did develop DIC and Sheehan syndrome.I sat in ICU the longest night of my life wondering why.Sometimes there just aren't any answers.You do the best you can.Your caregivers do the best they can.And sometimes even when things go terribly wrong you still make it.In some ways that can take a whole lot more time to work through.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
again, you can *manage* what is done to you in a hospital. you can say no to anything, you can literally have no one touch you from the minute you get in. you have to consent to anything - though it's not always made clear.. 

you can't manage your chances of an emergency- a real one i mean, not something that gives you time to transfer.

I think your understanding of what can happen in a hospital is fundementally flawed.


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## pannacotta (Jul 25, 2006)

_Hospital proponents, in general, believe that if we just do enough, interfere enough, sacrifice our babies' health and our mental wellbeing, our breastfeeding relationships, our power and autonomy, we can have a guarantee_

I don't think there are any guarantees in birth. I'm not saying that in any of my posts. I feel though that we should have a safety net that can only be provided in a hospital. Remember I'm not some pro intervention person, I was strongly HB activist, since i was 14 or so. I've been to several HB and they were beautiful births, handled well by midwives (who i believe should handle the vast majority of births).

I don't think being in a hospital reduces your risk to 0, nothing can.

I do agree that hospitals cause a lot of problems and that there are some bad bad ones that start talking about court orders and the like.

I do agree that inherently there are risks of infection, of not being listened to of emotional trauma etc in a hospital. We're on the same page about that, but it would also be dishonest of me to to stay quiet on this topic having changed my mind on the safety of homebirths. Just as I talked about how I felt home was the best place before I had the baby, now it's my responsibility to talk about how I no longer feel that. And I feel I'm betraying a sisterhood here. I really do.

I talk about an ideal place to give birth while knowing the reality in America and in many countries. Hospitals don't get paid more if the woman has a good - emotionally good - experience. They get paid per birth, the quicker the better as far as they are concerned.

Of course every woman should make her own choice, but in writing this post I simply wanted to tell my humble tale and as one of those who almost didn't make it, let you know that when you hear those sentences from a midwife about 'you can transfer, we can handle almost all emergencies (which is true)' focus on the word *most*. And ask yourself if you have an emergency that they can't handle, would you be happy with the outcome if you were at home. Would you be at peace for your family if you didn't make it. I know for me, the risk is too great and I will not birth at home this time. I very much like the suggestion of one poster who said she went to the hospital and walked around not telling anyone she was there. In fact that's probably what I'll do..  in the absence of my utopian set up that maybe, by the time our babies are grown, will exist.

Until then we muddle through. When you talk with old obs they will tell you that births have swung in our times to a very medicalized model and like a pendulum at some point all the interventions will be seen to have limited use. Already where I live episiotomies are not routine, stirrups and lithotomy position are largely obsolete, eating and drinking appears to be Ok (this from friends who birthed in the other major hospitals in our area. I was told not to eat and drink, but did anyway without making a big deal of it, saving my battles for things i cared about. AROM, EFM and other procedures are not proven to speed up labor in the case of the first and prevent deaths in the case of the second - according to major studies. So I suspect these may be on the way out. Scalp monitoring is fairly uncommon here, and routine IVs can be refused. These things will change over time.

Perhaps another approach would be for us who choose hospitals but want intervention free births to sign a waiver on admission, saying essentially we take responsibility for our choices and will not sue you. Then the hospital wouldn't feel they have to throw that 'protective net' (actually it isn't) of interventions at you.

I *REALLY* like the suggestion of going to the hosp, avoiding the maternity floor and just walking around until you are ready to push ..thanks to the person who suggested that. Walking feels right to me in labour and I did want to walk a lot last time once the pain had subsided. Now I need to talk my husband into it. 

Many many people have bad things done to them in hospital, out of ignorance, out of fear, out of a feeling that 'this is right' when in fact it isn't. But I think the catastrophic events that a hospital has more chance of saving you from (more chance. NOT a guarantee) make it easy for me to feel at peace going there and massaging the system in my favor.

RE AFE- it's such a rare event, but mostly fatal. Some studies link it to induction (perhaps stronger contrax of pitocin have something to do with it). Some with mothers who have allergies or have male babies. Truth is we don't know. AFE has happened in women who had miscarriages, in women who had D&C, in women who had hospital births and in women who had homebirths. (I read about a sad case recently diagnosed after the woman died, collapsed seconds after giving birth to a healthy baby at home. Maybe she would have died in hospital too, maybe not.) It's one of those random events but with such sad outcomes most of the time that I feel it should make everyone pause and think.

I only gave 3 examples of complications, but there are others, not to mention complications with the baby that necessitate an immediate (within seconds - yup they can do one at the bedside if necessary) c section to save its life.

I agree we can't live our lives being afraid or we'd never do anything. But I wanted to write about this in case it helps and informs someone. If anything as an encouragement to prepare ourselves for birth mentally and physically as best we can, knowing ourselves, our bodies, what hospitals in our area would want to do, how we can go around the system, what is safe and unsafe. And I think HBers more than any group (maybe UC even more  ) do that and are aware of those risks.

But sometimes on paper when you read or hear someone saying 'most routine emergencies can be handled at home' as yourself what about the non routine ones, the ones I can't predict, the ones I have a better chance of surviving if I am in a hospital. If that happens to ME, will I be comfortable (if i survive) with the consequences. And if I don't, will I be at peace that my family no longer has me. I can't tell you the flashbacks I have of slipping away. Well I can tell you. I can taste the sadness. I felt myself floating over the bed in the OR, seeing DH with his head in his hands. Struggling to get back 'down' and see DS who I had not seen yet because I was passing out.

None of us know what it's like to die. But this felt very close and it comes to me in dreams (and sometimes awake) all the time. (I'm dealing with PTSD obviously..)

The sadness I feel when I have these dreams, the sadness at seeing DH face as he contemplates a life without me and with an infant son is making me cry even now. I cannot responsibly choose to be without that safety net, even if it means I have to fight (a smallprice to pay) a little to have things my way in a hospital.

I don't want to be trite and say you can't understand unless you've been this close to death, and sadly I'm sure some of you have had experiences like this, but it's not something I can put in words very well so forgive me for not being very eloquent on this.

As to the other things that HBers favor, I'm all for that. No vit K injections, no circ, no eye ointment (if I know I don't have syphilis and other nasties.. why should I goop up the kids eyes with prophylactic ointment against it), pro breastfeeding, cloth diapers, cosleeping (we still do at almost 2), spaced out vaccinations (why overwhelm his immune system with lots of shots at once!) and only those that are necessary at that age. (Hep B (is it hep b..? it's one of the heps) you know is given immediately after birth. Hep B is sexually transmitted and it's given then because it was decide by the powers that be that everyone should get it rather than rely on the high risk people in 15 years to come in and get it.. which they prob won't. but that's a silly reason for me so we didn't do it. ) Anyway i digress..

Look if I were low risk and had a choice of ONLY a hospital that I knew would slap a court order on me for refusing interventions or a HB I'd probably take my chances with the HB. But I think most of us aren't in that situation. It's criminal that such things happen, like women in prison being shackled while giving birth.. what are they gonna do.. leap over a wall with a baby hanging out of them.. makes me angry.

I'm rambling a bit here.

I've tried to explain as coherently as possible why I feel as I do, and it's not been easy to read some things written. But please as you go about your lives bear in mind what I'm saying and I'll do the same with the things you all say. I can disagree with what you are saying but I still respect your right to say it and make your own choices. But I hope what I say gets thrown into the great mental blender as you do.

Peace


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## tammyswanson (Feb 19, 2007)

I'm glad you survived...wow.

I'm glad I chose to do a UC HB for my first baby. I used my inner voice/instinct/higher guiding self as a guide. If I had 'sensed' that something was wrong, I would have gone to the hospital. But, my 'inner voice' was telling me to stay away from the hospital. I'm glad I listened to it. I knew everything would turn out all right with the birth. I just had problems because the placenta didn't want to come out! If I had gone to the hospital, I can imagine what they would have done. It took 9 hours for it to come out, and then when it did it got hung up by a membrane. Everything turned out all right, and I am very glad with my choice to birth at home.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

"But I think the catastrophic events that a hospital has more chance of saving you from (more chance. NOT a guarantee) make it easy for me to feel at peace going there and massaging the system in my favor."

I'm glad you feel at peace. Truly, I am (although given that you are still dealing with PTSD, I would question how true that is). I want that for every woman.

But you didn't address my (and others') main point that while yes, _you_ might have died if you weren't in the hospital, _there are other women who die because they were_, and women who didn't because they were at home. I am very glad you were where you needed to be to survive this birth. But your argument that, because you would have died out of the hospital, therefore all women should, in an ideal world, birth in the hospital, and that it would thus be "safer", is simply wrong, in my opinion and understanding (based on years of research and reading and observing others' experiences).

If you feel the need for that safety net, and the risks of hospitals are worth it to you, blessings on you, and I wish you healthy and happy future births there. I hope within our lifetimes we will see the mother and baby friendly changes implemented universally, and the non-evidenced-based practices which permeate hospitals eliminated. And I will still support homebirth as the safer, saner option for all women who desire it.


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## DoomaYula (Aug 22, 2006)

I can see (read) that you're dealing with PTSD, and I'm sorry for your traumatic experience. I cannot imagine what you must have felt during that time.

However, I think you are seeing homebirth in light of your experience, and not in reality.

I attended a horrible birth once. Mom and baby survived, but it was ugly. Afterwards, for a while, birth didn't feel safe to me. In fact, birth felt incredibly UNsafe. I felt that everyone should schedule c-s. I was scared.

It took a long time, lots of talking talking talking talking (to my dh, to midwives, to my doula certification group, to my therapist) and tons of writing, before I felt okay about birth again. Just keep that in mind. I only attended that birth; you experienced an incredible birth trauma and it may be a long time before you feel normal about birth again.


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## pannacotta (Jul 25, 2006)

Out of interest.. has anyone raised the threat of suing while a nurse/doc was doing something they asked not to be done?

As in 'i'll cut an episiotomy now'

No you do not have my permission. I will sue you if you proceed. We are filming this.

has that worked for anyone?

(horrible that we should have to ask such things..)

one other thing.. a few days after i left hosp we went out for the first time. put the baby in the car seat and just went to a bagel store if i remember correctly. i needed to be out of the house and see people. see life. i crossed the street alone to post a letter. i looked around and started bawling when i saw kids and their parents and all those people. i felt as though i'd been away, on a different planet, and had changed completely. i felt how we take for granted that things will turn out ok. i i'd look at people with kids and parents and 'how lucky that your mom made it, that her number wasn't up. how might life be without her, if you'd never known her. how close we are to disaster'

i walked back to my husband and bawled, feeling soo spaced out. looking at him and the baby and wondering at that same scene, but without me there, and knowing how close it had been. the same street, sky, cars, people, but without me.

this isn't really relevant.. but i wanted to say it. thanks for indulging me and i hope you all stay safe and remain close to those you love.

over n out for now. enjoy the weekend.


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## DBZ (Aug 9, 2005)

One of the things about giving birth is that you need to listen to your body no matter where you give birth. You did that. You listened to your gut and followed your instincts and it saved your life.

I hope if you have another child, your labor goes easier and doesn't end up with you losing any more blood then that your body was designed to lose.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:

We are filming this.
From my experience and knowledge, I do believe that most hospitals and doctors do not allow cameras or filming of any kind in the delivery room because often it is used against the doctor as evidence for a malpractice suit.

As for telling a doctor not to do something and they do it, his colleague doctors will line up to testify that the doctor behaved and acted according to the "standard of care", and that statement will go a long way in vindicating a doctor in a court of law who performs any procedure against your wishes. After all, the doctor is the trained, educated expert, and you, well you are the patient.

When a woman has a baby in a hospital, she is on the medical profession's turf.

When a woman gives birth at home, she is queen of her domain, she has the home court advantage.

As for the feeling of death, you certainly "walked through the valley of death", and you returned. Postpartum is hard with the change of hormones and the problems you endured. But you were healthy enough to recover and return to your family, and now you are healing.







Easy healing vibes to you and may you find a support in those around you.


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## catters (Nov 20, 2007)

Oh honey, I'm sorry your birth was so hard and not what you had hoped. I'm married to a doctor too (also had a section - breech) and although I know intervention can lead to more c-sections I wouldn't have a non hospital birth either. There's a reason the number one cause of death for women of child bearing age ISN'T childbirth anymore. Say what you will against modern medicine, and my husband will be the first to admit it is FAR from perfect, but it has definitely saved some lives. I'm glad you and your son are safe!


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## pannacotta (Jul 25, 2006)

i'll try to address your point arwyn as best i can.

some women die because of hospital mistakes. agreed. but if you educate yourselves you can catch many of those before they happen. of course you could touch a door handle going in and get mrsa in a cut and get very sick, but that could of course happen at the mall too.

if someone puts the wrong fluid in an IV while you're having surgery there's not much you can do about it. you can't prevent all hospital mistakes.

but if someone wants to keep you lying down or says you must have an IV from the minute you check in or says you must have vaginal exams every X hours or wants to rupture membranes, you can say no. sure, there are hospitals who'll whip a lawyer out of the woodwork but I hope none of us *have* to go to those, because by doing research ahead of time we'll know about them. we'll know what happened to X at X hospital, and we'll know that we will go to stay with a friend in another place (or an arrangement like that) close to a better hospital if that's our only choice in our area.

But we can find out those things with research. Take the hospital tour then ask midwives who work there or HB midwives who know the ins and outs of the particular hospital.

We can do a lot to control for the bad things that can potentially happen to us in a hospital, be strong (with info, with support people) if they try to guilt you into accepting procedure X.

We can't control everything, and for sure, sometimes hospital make such catastrophic mistakes on mother or child that they kill and lawsuits are supposed to help get justice for the victims. Not that it makes up for the loss.

But.. births can go from low risk to high risk very quickly and on balance i think the things hospitals can save you from are so serious (and i'm not just talking about a couple of events as i described in the OP) that it's worth accepting the (usually lesser) risks that crossing that threshold brings.

it is sad that the business of medicine (have you seen the 'business of birth documentary, it's a bit skewed in parts but good) intrudes at all in the comfort and safety of a woman going thru a non medical event.

but in balance i think the bad things that happen in hospitals are fewer and less likely to be fatal than the things a hospital can save you from. BUT ONLY if you are very well prepared with knowledge, support.

If someone cuts you despite you saying 'no' that's awful and would anger me greatly to say the least. but i'd rather that happen and be somewhere that saves me if i go into cardiac arrest, than be home and not be savable.

in the case of hospitals killing someone by mistake, when that person would have been fine at home, sure that happens. i don't know how often (that would be an interesting stat) and yes that person would have been better off at home.

do we know whether hospitals KILL (actually result in death, not just a relatively minor procedure done against will) more people

or whether birthing at home results in more deaths that would have been preventable? i do not know.

but i strongly feel that you can educate yourself enough to catch most potential mistakes or dangers in hospital (not all, for instance you wouldn't know if the door handle your nurse touched had a bacteria she's about to transfer to you by brushing against you - even if she washes her hands) while being in an environment with a safety net.

i just don't think deciding against the safety net is the answer, just as i think hospitals have a lot of improving to do.

here's a shocking (to me) story. a friend who is a doc, and married to one is pregnant. neither are obs. their ob decides that my friend's baby is too big for her (pelvic measurements or some other innacurate thing, despite her having birthed vaginally a bigger baby than then one she is apparently carrying) so he advises inducing THREE weeks early..

result. long, drawn out labor, forceps, 4th degree tear and a kid who is not quite 'normal'. something about her is odd. how can 2 docs who are supposed to know more about birth than most people allow this. did they not question? nope. that's what i mean about doing research. if they'd read ina may or odent or even googled pelvimetry they would have heard some alarm bells.

was the tear and forceps a result of induction so early. i tend to think so. is the kid 'funny' because of that. who knows. but it seems so unnecessary.

i'm rambling again.. have to go out now. bye for now.


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## Ladybyrd (Sep 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
I feel though that we should have a safety net that can only be provided in a hospital.

I understand that your birth was traumatic; I've had a traumatic birth experience, myself. However, just because you _feel_ that the only safety net is to be in a hospital doesn't make it so, and the statistics bear that out.

Quote:

...but it would also be dishonest of me to to stay quiet on this topic having changed my mind on the safety of homebirths. Just as I talked about how I felt home was the best place before I had the baby, now it's my responsibility to talk about how I no longer feel that. And I feel I'm betraying a sisterhood here. I really do.
But again, just because you've changed your mind on the safety of homebirths doesn't mean that the _actual_ safety of homebirths has changed. The only thing that _has_ changed is your perspective. You're basing your opinion on some pretty powerful emotions, rather than basing them in facts.

Quote:

And ask yourself if you have an emergency that they can't handle, would you be happy with the outcome if you were at home.
If I have an emergency that my midwife can't handle, I'll be off to the hospital, no questions asked. That is what the hospital is _there_ for.

Quote:

I agree we can't live our lives being afraid or we'd never do anything. But I wanted to write about this in case it helps and informs someone.
Unfortunately, though, and this isn't meant as an attack, you aren't informing. It really amounts to scaremongering, because while you think you're providing information, your 'information' isn't based in fact - it's based completely off of fear.

Quote:

I've tried to explain as coherently as possible why I feel as I do, and it's not been easy to read some things written. But please as you go about your lives bear in mind what I'm saying and I'll do the same with the things you all say. I can disagree with what you are saying but I still respect your right to say it and make your own choices. But I hope what I say gets thrown into the great mental blender as you do.
I hope this doesn't offend you, but I cannot bear in mind what you're saying as I go through my life and/or my pregnancy, because the facts don't bear out what you're saying. You can disagree with the statistics and you can disagree with the studies that show the safety of homebirth, but when you do so, it's tantamount to sticking your head in the sand. I will base my childbearing decisions in fact, rather than out of fear of the "what if."

I truly hope you are able to find peace with your birth.


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## DoomaYula (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *catters* 
There's a reason the number one cause of death for women of child bearing age ISN'T childbirth anymore.

Yes. And it's called hand-washing.

IBTL.


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## catters (Nov 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DoomaYula* 
Yes. And it's called hand-washing.

IBTL.

Ah yes, I forget how black/white everything is. Silly me.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

I really recommend that you take a few minutes to read some near death experiences, as it appears you, yourself, had an out of body experience. No matter what your faith background is, the fact that so many people have had similar feelings and experiences can be of great comfort and different perspectives may help.

http://www.near-death.com/


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *catters* 
There's a reason the number one cause of death for women of child bearing age ISN'T childbirth anymore. !

That reason would be soap and hot water, NOT hospital births. Good gracious.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *catters* 
There's a reason the number one cause of death for women of child bearing age ISN'T childbirth anymore.

No, there isn't "a reason". There are lots of reasons. Yes - OBs have saved lives. They've also cost lives. IMO, antibiotics have saved more lives in this area than anything else.

I've also looked at old records from...England, I think, and women started dying like flies when they started going to hospitals, instead of having their babies at home. Some wards lost *100%*. That part always gets glossed over by the "OMG - women used to die in childbirth _all the time_" crowd.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ladybyrd* 
I understand that your birth was traumatic; I've had a traumatic birth experience, myself. However, just because you _feel_ that the only safety net is to be in a hospital doesn't make it so, and the statistics bear that out.

But again, just because you've changed your mind on the safety of homebirths doesn't mean that the _actual_ safety of homebirths has changed. The only thing that _has_ changed is your perspective. You're basing your opinion on some pretty powerful emotions, rather than basing them in facts.

If I have an emergency that my midwife can't handle, I'll be off to the hospital, no questions asked. That is what the hospital is _there_ for.

Unfortunately, though, and this isn't meant as an attack, you aren't informing. It really amounts to scaremongering, because while you think you're providing information, your 'information' isn't based in fact - it's based completely off of fear.

I hope this doesn't offend you, but I cannot bear in mind what you're saying as I go through my life and/or my pregnancy, because the facts don't bear out what you're saying. You can disagree with the statistics and you can disagree with the studies that show the safety of homebirth, but when you do so, it's tantamount to sticking your head in the sand. I will base my childbearing decisions in fact, rather than out of fear of the "what if."

I truly hope you are able to find peace with your birth.

ITA. This is a great post.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

I think applejuice is 100% right here.

Also I want to add that I wasn't even allowed to *photograph* my sister's birth of her last baby, despite the fact that she really really wanted me to and she knew it would be the last one ever ~ the nurse physically removed the camera and told me if I insisted on keeping it out / on I would have to leave the hospital.














So ... yeah.

I think there is really a perception being put out there that hospitals will go along with the mother's wishes if only she'd express them ~~ but that's just not the case. I had an extremely traumatic birth experience with my 1st baby, in a hospital, because of their "protocol" and their "regulations" and sheer bullying... I mean, when you're a mother in extreme pain and you're the only one there, or your birth partner / support person is there but won't stand up for you, and five nurses and a dr are ALL telling you that you don't have a right to birth how you want, to refuse whatever it is they're telling you that you "need" ... it's darn near impossible to really make your wishes known and adhered to.


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

I couldn't read all of this because I'm pregnant and trying to avoid reading really negative birth stories.

While there are cases in which being in the hospital can save a life there are statistically more times in which being in the hospital creates the life threatening emergency.

I'll stick with homebirth.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:

IMO, antibiotics have saved more lives in this area than anything else.
You are absolutely correct.

If one were to narrow down the things that have saved women in childbirth, it would be antibiotics and blood transfusions.

None of the monitoring, pain meds, labor inducing drugs, regional anesthetics, intravenous fluids, episiotomies, caesarean sections, confinement, forceps, vacuums, shaving, or enemas have helped more than simple cleanliness and fluid replacement to save women in labor. Handwashing helps also! Thank you, Dr. Semmelweis! He suggested that doctors do what midwives had done for centuries and his colleagues put him in an asylm where he died.

None of this improved mortality and morbidity has anything to do with being in a hospital.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

This post seemed as if it was the attempting to process her traumatic birth, as she has every right to. however, the more you (OP) post, the more I am beginning to believe you are actually trying to convince other mothers that your view of hospital birth is not seriously flawed, which it is. I am glad you and your baby are doing ok..although im sorry you seem to be having PPD and are struggling w/ your birth...but please, unless you can address the issues that are being brought up here (which I don't see you doing), stop trying to convince others that we should be running to the hospital.

women are NOT allowed to control the hospital environment. women are not given many options...often birth plans are thrown out the window and disregarded for all kinds of nonsensical reasons.


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## catters (Nov 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
No, there isn't "a reason". There are lots of reasons. Yes - OBs have saved lives. They've also cost lives. IMO, antibiotics have saved more lives in this area than anything else.

I've also looked at old records from...England, I think, and women started dying like flies when they started going to hospitals, instead of having their babies at home. Some wards lost *100%*. That part always gets glossed over by the "OMG - women used to die in childbirth _all the time_" crowd.

really? I would love to see that information. I'm serious. I know that hospitals back in the day were extremely dirty. I'm not talking about hospitals 200 years ago because as of 1880 or so, childbirth was still the number one cause of death for women. Once they got the germ thing figured out, mortality rates plummeted. And like I said, modern medicine is NOT perfect. I certainly don't believe that. My husband (an MD, mind you) wanted a home birth before we found out we were having a breech baby who wouldn't turn and NO ONE would deliver him except my husband who was NOT comfortable with that role, so we had a section.


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## pannacotta (Jul 25, 2006)

i'm afraid the facts do NOT say that homebirth is safer because (as i explained in an earlier post) such a study is impossible to do.

you would have to take a group of low risk pregnant women and randomly assign them to home with the same set up (same midwives, same everything or hospital (same hospital, same obs and nurses) . and that's a study noone can do.

i'm not going to get into the absolute accuracy of studies for the above reason and because these are not 'facts'. noone CAN prove that home or hospital is safer in the vast majority of cases, but i'm not talking about the vast majority of cases. i'm talking about sudden emergencies that can ONLY be taken care of in a hospital, emergencies which are NOT predictable and which can be fatal if not caught in time. and which might be fatal anyway.

you say i don't look at the facts - well there are no facts when it comes to birth, except that a baby will be born one way or the other.

the other fairly certain thing is that if you have something catastrophic happen to you and you bleed out, or your heart stops or your uterus ruptures with little warning, you will most likely have a bad outcome if you are at home.

i'm not talking about the relative safety, but about those deaths that could be preventable, if a women had been close to backup.

saying 'if i feel something is wrong i'll go to a hospital' sounds nice but you do NOT always have time sadly. you can be dead before you get there. saying 'i'll feel if something is wrong' also sounds nice. and i did feel something was wrong. and i do not KNOW if that was connected to accreta. it could just be a total coincidence that i had a painful labor. i have a hunch, yes, but hunches are not facts. women who suddenly collapse AFE have no warning. (of the few survivor stories (many survive but brain dead) some report a metallic taste in their mouth for a few *seconds* before they collapse.

wouldn't the possibility of something like that happening to you, with all the sadness that implies, make you feel more comfortable in the only place that can handle such an event? even if you have to fight with a nurse or get cut when you don't want to be.

those of us in earthquake zones often buy quake insurance, even though it's such a rare event. we don't rely on 'it isn't going to happen to me' because we just don't know.

please don't quote 'safety of homebirth' statistics at me. i've read all the studies and neither they nor the hospital is safer studies are relevant in this case nor as i said a the beginning of this post can they demonstrate that homebirth is safer. there are just too many confounders. i'm talking about sudden obstetric emergencies that kill you if you're out of a hospital.

at the end of the day we each decide for ourselves. i felt talking about my experience was useful and relevant.

and to be told 'homebirth is safer this study says so' is patronizing at best and irrelevant at least. i did read those studies you know. i did quote them at my husband (the skeptical doc) who actually designs healthcare studies himself and pointed out a million flaws in them (and the hospital-is-safer studies too.

when something bad happens, and you don't know if it's going to happen to you, wouldn't you rather have that (imperfect) but potentially lifesaving safety net?


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## pannacotta (Jul 25, 2006)

where i live both videos and photos are allowed at births, except in the OR - and even that is negotiable for photos (with no flash)

i'm sure it isn't the same everywhere.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:

you would have to take a group of low risk pregnant women and randomly assign them to home with the same set up (same midwives, same everything or hospital (same hospital, same obs and nurses) . and that's a study noone can do.
That study was done in Northern California by Dr. Lewis Mehl, M.D. and published in 1978. It showed lower morbidity for the home birth group simply because fewer interventions were available to them. The home birth group did better in every way. It was a very well done, scientifically contrived study.


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## DoomaYula (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
wouldn't the possibility of something like that happening to you, with all the sadness that implies, make you feel more comfortable in the only place that can handle such an event? even if you have to fight with a nurse or get cut when you don't want to be.


1. You have mentioned death many many many times in this thread. When I was experiencing ppd with dd1, I thought about death CONSTANTLY. I was constantly terrified that I'd die, she'd die, my dh would die, my other kids would die. It was a huge red flag that I was experiencing ppd.

2. Honestly, NOTHING IS SAFE. By your standards, we should all be in a hospital RIGHT NOW, with IVs already started, because we could walk outside our front door and get hit by a car. By your standards, nobody should live in a small town, because their hospitals are less likely to be able to handle SERIOUS emergencies, and we should all live close to hospitals that are equipped to handle severe emergencies.

I've had a pph and needed a hospital transfer, and I still don't think it's the place to give birth. I could have DIED. I was bleeding profusely. Things were starting to get a little fuzzy. But it doesn't make homebirth safe, or hospital birth safer than homebirth.


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

Pannacotta, I am amazed by your strength and courage, both in what you went through and in having this conversation, but I cannot agree with many of your statements, or with your conclusions.

In particular, NO, it is not possible to go to a hospital and labor while they leave you alone.

There is no hospital I know of that will admit you on your mere word that you are in labor. They want to prove it to themselves. They want to attach you to monitors ("Here honey, lie down..."), and check your cervix, and wait, and check your cervix again. They want fifteen minutes of monitor tape showing contractions. They will not admit you without this. If you need a place to labor, you are at their mercy. (Bonus: I got a dithering resident who didn't want to admit me until the attending for the floor could see me. And the attending was busy delivering someone else's baby. I had to argue with her just to be able to *walk the L&D ward* instead of lying in the triage area.) They want to check the baby's heart rate. And your blood pressure. They want to separate you from your partner for just a minute! to ask if there's abuse in your relationship (which, for the record, I totally support them doing, but gosh is it an added stress to notice that they're shuffling your partner off to where? for why? when you feel like you need that person).

And then they want to parade an anesthesiologist by you to get signed consent forms in case you want an epidural later. (I got an idiot anesthesiologist who wanted me to sit down while he gave a lecture on the risks of epidural. It took that man twenty minutes to give that talk, talking for three minutes, waiting through a one minute contraction, and talking until the next one hit, but it was "hospital policy" that they do this.)

Funny, after four hours of labor in less than ideal circumstances, I *did* want the epidural. Which meant, much later, that I got to be the textbook example of why epidurals suck, and but for the rockstar attending obstetrician, I would have had a c-section, I'm sure. It took me five hours to push my son into the world, and for three of those, there was a doctor standing around telling me that if he wasn't out in 30 more minutes, we would have to reconsider surgery.

I didn't just blandly consent to everything - from flat on my back with an epi in my spine, I sent the doc who suggested pitocin scurrying in fear. I put the screws into the admitting resident until she got me a goldang room. I painstakingly re-explained our birth plan to the people who'd never gotten the paperwork, and reminded the doctors and nurses of relevant details while I labored, while I pushed, while I bled all over the delivery room (I had a hemorrhage I believe I never would have had at home).

I shouldn't have had to do any of it. It was a diversion of my energy and attention at a time when I had none of those things to spare. If ever I have another baby, I will do what it takes to stay out of the hospital. Hospitals aren't "just a safety net", and they probably never will be.


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## pannacotta (Jul 25, 2006)

sure i have had problems coming to terms with the birth but that has nothing to do with how i'm addressing the issue now. i'm seeing things more clearly having been on both side of the table as it were.

i'm addressing ALL the questions thrown at me as far as time permits. send me a list of questions i'm not addressing and i'll try to answer them.

but i'm also meeting a wall of silence, of 'we don't want to consider anything different from what we believe' which i frankly didn't expect from MC.

i'm hearing the same statistics again and again (and they are worthless as i've pointed out since you can't design the definitive study unless you're in a totalitarian state!),

i'm hearing that 'if i bleed i'll go to the hospital' , (what if no time)

it's pretty odd to say that because i had a difficult birth (handled very well by the hospital surprisingly) i can't be coherently debating this.

at the end of the day if you want to HB then we are lucky to have the freedom to chose it, but my OP was to point out that please be *aware* by reading about a personal experience that there are some things you have a much greater chance of surviving in a hospital.

things that are not talked about much, things that are rare, but things that can change a family forever if they don't work out.

if you chose HB with a fully open brain, knowing why you chose this, knowing all the issues on the table, then it's a conscious choice.

but choosing HB because of 'studies that "show" HB is safer" or 'my midwife said we can transfer' or 'i feel it's the best for me' (those who were wrong on this aren't here to tell the tale) is another matter.

just think about what i'm saying, that's all i ask.

i'm going to stop now, this is getting upsetting as it's veered into attacks.


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## mommy2naomi (Jun 4, 2007)

I just have to say that based on your conclusion, we should all find utopia. Why do people live in California if they know that an earthquake is bound to happen? Why do people rebuild homes many times over after repeated natural disasters? Life is full of choices and possibilities, some of them include death. I personally think that once a person has come to terms with the idea that death is going to happen and we don't know when, they will make good informed decisions in their lives.


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## aprilgurlie (Dec 14, 2006)

I just want to say, pannacotta, thank you for posting your story. I think it is important to hear all angles. And it was courageous of you to post your view, knowing all the while that it would probably be disputed or even attacked here on MDC.

I love MDC, but sometimes I feel that people here are very eager to jump the gun on telling someone that their perception isn't right, if it doesn't go with the traditional MDC views.

I think that we should remember that the views that many MDCers have today (non-circ, non-vax, homebirth, etc.) were once considered extremist views. Moms who have these views I am sure resent people telling them that their choice is irresponsible, and jumping all over their backs. Just because on MDC these views seem to be more the norm, doesn't mean we should bash or poke at people who think differently.

My husband and I are TTC, and the way people on here talk about it, hospitals are the devil. It makes me feel like if I don't choose homebirth in the future I am a wuss, or am not doing what's best. I think every mom deserves to feel good about her birthing choice.

I am not sure of the message of my post, I am just hoping this post doesn't get ugly. I have seen others like it get shut down for this very reason. Peace, everyone, peace!!


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## pannacotta (Jul 25, 2006)

interesting, i don't remember this one but will look it up when i get back.. thanks for citing it.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

"but in balance i think the bad things that happen in hospitals are fewer and less likely to be fatal than the things a hospital can save you from. BUT ONLY if you are very well prepared with knowledge, support."

Well, I'm sorry you think that - you certainly have every reason to. _I_ think that the maternal mortality risks are the same, the infant mortality risks are probably the same (with homebirth likely edging out hospital birth as safer, with singleton vertex births, but you're right, the stats aren't conclusive on that one), and the morbidity risks for mother and child are simply not comparable. Hospital are risky places to birth. I also think you are incredibly naive about what it takes to avoid the very real risks of being in the hospital. It really isn't a matter of being prepared enough, of having enough support. You can adjust the odds, but they'll still be against you.

And as you say below, you can't prove that your "in balance I think" is actually correct. I will take the risk of dying via something a hospital could have prevented and the much, much better likelihood that my baby will be safe and healthy over the risk that I will die via something a hospital caused and the much higher likelihood that I will experience trauma, pain, violation, and my baby will be traumatized, hurt, and/or damaged, and my future babies having a higher likelihood of death.

You haven't yet said anything that is new or would make me reconsider my support of homebirth, although you have very eloquently stated why women would very much feel it necessary to birth in the hospital, and I thank you for that window into fear.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
i'm afraid the facts do NOT say that homebirth is safer because (as i explained in an earlier post) such a study is impossible to do.

you would have to take a group of low risk pregnant women and randomly assign them to home with the same set up (same midwives, same everything or hospital (same hospital, same obs and nurses) . and that's a study noone can do.

i'm not going to get into the absolute accuracy of studies for the above reason and because these are not 'facts'. noone CAN prove that home or hospital is safer in the vast majority of cases, but i'm not talking about the vast majority of cases. i'm talking about sudden emergencies that can ONLY be taken care of in a hospital, emergencies which are NOT predictable and which can be fatal if not caught in time. and which might be fatal anyway.

you say i don't look at the facts - well there are no facts when it comes to birth, except that a baby will be born one way or the other.

the other fairly certain thing is that if you have something catastrophic happen to you and you bleed out, or your heart stops or your uterus ruptures with little warning, you will most likely have a bad outcome if you are at home.

i'm not talking about the relative safety, but about those deaths that could be preventable, if a women had been close to backup.

saying 'if i feel something is wrong i'll go to a hospital' sounds nice but you do NOT always have time sadly. you can be dead before you get there. saying 'i'll feel if something is wrong' also sounds nice. and i did feel something was wrong. and i do not KNOW if that was connected to accreta. it could just be a total coincidence that i had a painful labor. i have a hunch, yes, but hunches are not facts. women who suddenly collapse AFE have no warning. (of the few survivor stories (many survive but brain dead) some report a metallic taste in their mouth for a few *seconds* before they collapse.

wouldn't the possibility of something like that happening to you, with all the sadness that implies, make you feel more comfortable in the only place that can handle such an event? even if you have to fight with a nurse or get cut when you don't want to be.

those of us in earthquake zones often buy quake insurance, even though it's such a rare event. we don't rely on 'it isn't going to happen to me' because we just don't know.

please don't quote 'safety of homebirth' statistics at me. i've read all the studies and neither they nor the hospital is safer studies are relevant in this case nor as i said a the beginning of this post can they demonstrate that homebirth is safer. there are just too many confounders. i'm talking about sudden obstetric emergencies that kill you if you're out of a hospital.

at the end of the day we each decide for ourselves. i felt talking about my experience was useful and relevant.

and to be told 'homebirth is safer this study says so' is patronizing at best and irrelevant at least. i did read those studies you know. i did quote them at my husband (the skeptical doc) who actually designs healthcare studies himself and pointed out a million flaws in them (and the hospital-is-safer studies too.

when something bad happens, and you don't know if it's going to happen to you, wouldn't you rather have that (imperfect) but potentially lifesaving safety net?

That safety net is an illusion, as many of us have stated. It's just as likely to kill you as it is to save you. It saved you. You are grateful. I am grateful, for whatever that's worth. Isn't that enough?


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## DoomaYula (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 

just think about what i'm saying, that's all i ask.


I don't know a single homebirther who HASN'T heard, "I would have died if not for the hospital." This is not the first time, nor will it be the last, of a mom transferring for a potentially life-threatening complication and espousing the virtues of the hospital.

Women who choose homebirth do not make that choice in a vacuum (or on an island, whatever the analogy is).


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Panacotta, I hope the day comes when you are able to come to peace about your experience.

Having been through severe PPD myself, I know just how illogical it can make a person. When you come through the other side, it's amazing. Best of luck to you.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 

i'm hearing that 'if i bleed i'll go to the hospital' , (what if no time)

i'm going to stop now, this is getting upsetting as it's veered into attacks.

Like I mentioned, I had a bad pph with my first that was not responsive to drugs and required a D&C, so I did a lot of research into causes, prevention, etc of pph. So it is so unbelievably small of a risk to bleed out with no time and no symptoms and no known causes that I could not find a single instance of this happening in a developed country in recent memory. Most causes of pph can be seen coming (mine was uterine atony after a long labour) and most midwives I know will not hesitate to transfer at excessive bleeding. Your scare tactics are not backed up by research and are obfuscating your argument.

No one has attacked you. Disagreement does not equal attacks.


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## aprilgurlie (Dec 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Having been through severe PPD myself, I know just how illogical it can make a person.

Now now, would you be suggesting that she is illogical due to PPD if she were a homebirth supporter instead? ................just saying.........be nice people!














:


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
but my OP was to point out that please be *aware* by reading about a personal experience that there are some things you have a much greater chance of surviving in a hospital. ...

if you chose HB with a fully open brain, knowing why you chose this, knowing all the issues on the table, then it's a conscious choice.

choosing HB because of 'studies that "show" HB is safer" ... is another matter.

I think the problem is that you see those two things as contradictory. They're not. Homebirth can be as safe/safer than hospital birth overall AND there can be some things that you have a greater chance of surviving in a hospital. Yes, there are things that can happen without warning and result in death at home, where if you were in a hospital there would be at least a chance at life. When you planned your homebirth, was that not something you thought about?

My understanding of how hospitals work, and the available evidence and studies, leads me to believe that in the real world of real hospitals, the chance of a catastrophic event resulting in a homebirth death is not any higher than the chance of dying during childbirth in a hospital.

I can understand your perspective. If something happens to you, statistics don't mean anything. *You* were safer in the hospital. If you were still at home, you believe there's 100% chance that you would have died. But that doesn't mean that somehow hospital birth is always safer than homebirth, or that if all homebirthers choose to birth in the hospital instead that there would be fewer deaths. You can't generalize from one person's extremely rare experience, or we could all start making plans based on winning the lottery.


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## ColoradoMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
i'm writing this - and it's been very difficult to write it, i'm still suffering from the effects of this birth and i hate to say what i feel i should say about homebirth but having been so close to death i am not the person i was and so aware of how such an event can happen to anyone. i suppose i'm trying to say look beyond the statistics of 'what is safe in 99% of cases' and think would you be comfortable with the consequences on you or your family if that 1% chance happens to you.

Here's the problem with this kind of thinking: yes, there is a 1% chance that something will happen that will be horribly dangerous at home. I could choose to go to a hospital, but then I will up my chance exponentially that something horrible will happen. I've had two hospital births - they were pretty uneventful comparatively. However, I have seen how quickly something minor can be blown out of proportion at a hospital. I've had to live with those consequences, and the guilt is horrible. I'd rather take my 99% that everything will turn out great at home.

I'm sure someone else has said something similar, but I don't have time to read everything! And no, I think you should be able to express your opinion even if others disagree with it. I'm sorry you had such a scary experience, and I'm glad you came through it okay. I'm very glad you listened to your intuition.


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## aprilgurlie (Dec 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
No one has attacked you. Disagreement does not equal attacks.

Calling her view a "scare tactic" is a little agressive though?







:


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Oh also since someone, probably pannacotta, asked for sources ~ I highly recommend going to a library (preferably a University library) and browsing their section on childbirth in the 1800's through 1960's. Look for Michel Odent, look for Dr. Grantley Dick-Read. Look for Ina May Gaskin (also featured in this month's Mothering







). Look for Jeannine Parvati-Baker. Look for books about women's conditions of home and family / childbirth in the 1850's through 1950's. Read until your eyes are bloodshot.

There is _so_ much evidence out there that hospital birth is just not as safe as delivering at home and on your own terms, at present and historically, and the reasons behind this.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I don't know. Scare tactic is neutral. It is not an attack. I think disregarding the safety of home births because of the off chance that something can happen when being at the hospital can be just as likely to cause a problem is a scare tactic.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Every woman has to decide for herself where and how she is most comfortable birthing. Insisting that everyone birth just like you, despite the preponderance of evidence to the contrary, is not logical. I think the OP is coming from a place of fear, depression, and grief and I hope she heals soon.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Every woman has to decide for herself where and how she is most comfortable birthing. Insisting that everyone birth just like you, despite the preponderance of evidence to the contrary, is not logical. I think the OP is coming from a place of fear, depression, and grief and I hope she heals soon.

ITA.


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## DoomaYula (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprilgurlie* 
would you be suggesting that she is illogical due to PPD if she were a homebirth supporter instead?

It's not the homebirth vs hospital birth that is making the OP illogical. PPD can occur after birth, no matter where that birth takes place.

The op's idea that she would have died at home = everyone belongs in a hospital for birth -- AND the idea that hospitals will take birth plans and laboring mothers seriously, or that we need a complete system overhaul -- is what makes the op illogical.


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## erin_brycesmom (Nov 5, 2005)

sorry if any of this is a repeat as I don't have time to read all of the pages of responses right now but I really want to respond while I'm going off my first impression.

I'm not angry at you at all *BUT*

your
post
makes
absolutely
no
sense
to
me
at
all.
at.
all.

First of all, you are expressing realistic concerns about risks associated with homebirth in one hand and completely ignoring the risks associated with hospital birth in the other hand. For every one mother/baby that is saved because she chose hospital birth, another mother/baby will die because she chose hospital birth. Bottom line - some babies born at home would have been better off born at the hospital. Some babies born at the hospital would have been better off at home. And on to top of that, there are additional risks beyond mortality associated with hospital birth so even if a mother/baby does not die, the mother/baby have higher risk for experiencing some traumatic events at the hospital and that counts for something too. You can't just ignore that which you clearly have done in your OP.

Second of all, you showed one of the prime examples of why homebirth is so safe. Women are much more easily able to follow their own instincts without interference and they are much more likely to realize when there is a problem. Which you did. Hospital transfer is a very realistic option in almost all homebirths but transfering from hospital to home once they have imposed unnecessary risks upon you and your baby is almost impossible.

Third...name one single thing that would have been different about your birth had you chosen planned hospital birth? This is the most baffling part of your entire post. Maybe what you really think is that planning a homebirth and staying at home even when a problem arises is less safe than choosing hospital birth from the get go. Did I get that right?


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

i am glad that you posted since it seems that you needed it. however your feelings seem to be based on your obviously traumatic experience and you are sort of blinded by it to the realities of childbirth.
i hope you find peace and are able to heal and one day see this without the blinders of fear.


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## erin_brycesmom (Nov 5, 2005)

Quote:

Oh also since someone, probably pannacotta, asked for sources ~ I highly recommend going to a library (preferably a University library) and browsing their section on childbirth in the 1800's through 1960's.
The following books were recommended to me and now I recommend them to others. I don't think it is possible to think the same way about hospital birth after reading them:

From Midwives to Medicine: The Birth of American Gynecology
by Deborah Kuhn McGregor, Rutgers University Press, 1998

Lying In: A History of Childbirth in America, by Dorothy Wertz and Robert Wertz, Yale University Press, 1977

Brought to Bed: Childbearing in America 1750-1950, by Judith Walzer Leavitt, Oxford University Press, 1998

Birth as an American Rite of Passage, by Robbie Floyd-Davis, Uni. of California Press, 2nd. ed. 2004


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Every woman has to decide for herself where and how she is most comfortable birthing. Insisting that everyone birth just like you, despite the preponderance of evidence to the contrary, is not logical. I think the OP is coming from a place of fear, depression, and grief and I hope she heals soon.

you said it much better than i.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Thanks to those who are trying to keep this discussion friendly









Please remember the User Agreement reminds us that:

Quote:

Our discussions concern the real world of mothering and are first and foremost, for support, information, and community. Mothering invites you to read and participate in the discussions. In doing so we ask that you agree to respect and uphold the integrity of this community. Through your direct or indirect participation here you agree to make a personal effort to maintain a comfortable and respectful atmosphere for our guests and members.
Let's be cautious to avoid posts that could be considered:

Quote:

_disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, name-calling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law._
Thanks


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## aprilgurlie (Dec 14, 2006)

Well, I doubt that she will be posting anymore, since when she did share her feelings on the topic, she got pounced on. Whether you were all just "disagreeing" or not, having so many people refute your feelings at once just deflates a person.

I think that when anyone's freedom to speak feels inhibited because of something like this, it is a tiny tragedy all in it's own. You all have good reasons for disagreeing. But can you understand that the way you say it can seem like an attack?

I have no beef with any of you here. I would just love to see MDC a little more open to differing opinions, as I said in an earlier post. Let us tread lightly with our words.

Peace out everyone, I am goin to bed!!


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## DoomaYula (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprilgurlie* 
I think that when anyone's freedom to speak feels inhibited because of something like this, it is a tiny tragedy all in it's own.

Isn't EVERYONE entitled to their own opinion? Or only the dissenting opinion?


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## irony_optional (Jan 15, 2008)

I feel pretty lucky to live in a town where I can have a midwife-attended birth, complete with birthing ball, birthing chair, whirlpool, and whatever experience I want... and yet have it in a hospital.

I'm a first-time mother over 40, and there's no way I would want to do this at home, 15 minutes or so from a hospital. I have friends who have done home births and many women in my family have done home births (due to poverty, not preference). Only one ended up in the hospital, as she had seizures during the birth. So it isn't that I don't know about it, or that it can be safe. However, none of them were my age at a first birth, and the women in my family didn't actually have a choice.

I'm glad I can choose the type of birth I want, but with a SWAT team there, just in case.

To the OP, I hope your recovery goes smoothly. It sounds like you had quite a rough time.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

This is the _birth forum._

There are very few places in the world and on the net where a mother can speak positive things about homebirth.

I hope the OP rests and recovers from her traumatic birth. Having a baby is a joy but it can be traumatic also, and all mothers need to know that each birth is what it is and grow in life from the experience it is.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

I should add that I have in fact had a hospital birth that saved my life and that of my child.

I have also had a hospital birth that needlessly endangered the life of another child.

And I have had a beautiful, peaceful homebirth.

So I have a broad range of experiences from which to draw my own conclusions


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## Ladybyrd (Sep 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
but i'm also meeting a wall of silence, of 'we don't want to consider anything different from what we believe' which i frankly didn't expect from MC.

Well, no. It's not a matter of not considering anything we don't _believe_, it's that you haven't provided any facts to back up your "belief" of what is safer. The beliefs that "we" are unwilling to give up are based solidly in facts and research.

Quote:

i'm hearing that 'if i bleed i'll go to the hospital' , (what if no time)
I _was_ in a situation where there was "no time." I was bleeding, but internally, and I didn't know it. We high-tailed it to the hospital, and my son was born dead but resuscitated. My being in the hospital beforehand is a moot issue, because I was only 32 weeks pregnant. I was at home. It was a dire, sudden, and unexpected emergency, yet transferring to the hospital from home (and not via ambulance, BTW) did not kill me. The number of emergencies that occur during prenancy and/or childbirth that require intervention within a few minutes are so small as to be statistically insignificant. I think that's why you're getting so much feedback about this.

Quote:

i'm going to stop now, this is getting upsetting as it's veered into attacks.
I'm sorry you're upset by this, but I haven't seen a single post attacking you. Sometimes when you're so emotionally invested in something, the discussion can seem a little personal.


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## yamilee21 (Nov 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
This post seemed as if it was the attempting to process her traumatic birth, as she has every right to. however, the more you (OP) post, the more I am beginning to believe you are actually trying to convince other mothers that your view of hospital birth is not seriously flawed, which it is. ...

Exactly; yes, the OP's experience was terrible, yes, thank goodness she was in a hospital where such a situation could be handled appropriately and good for her if she feels safest birthing in a hospital; that is her choice. But many of us do not feel safer birthing in hospitals, many of us have experience abuse and assault in hospitals, and there isn't anything the OP can write that will convince us to willingly seek out hospital births, unless we truly feel our lives or those of our babies are at risk.

For everyone like the OP who was saved in a hospital; there is someone like Tanyka Brydson, who, along with one of her babies, perhaps might be alive today if she hadn't been in a hospital. (Jennifer Block, Pushed, p.118)


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## ananas (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
ok let me ask something i've been thinking about..

if such a place - totally homebirth like place - existed *within* a hospital (same floor as regular L&D), staffed by midwives, with tubs, showers, soft lighting, family members allowed, birth balls, massage, music, no compulsory limits on stages of labor, no 'routine ivs' no ban on food and drink etc ..whatever you would have at homebirth you have it here..just not in the 4 walls of your home

would you birth there?

Nope. I would stay at home. I don't believe women should have to transfer somewhere at such a time. I believe it truly hinders the birth process. We see it all the time. Woman's contraction starts up, she goes to the hospital, labor completely stalls, they have to start pit, labor doesn't go anywhere, they section her. I think the stress of moving is a huge reason why labor stalls.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
I'm sorry you had a bad experience.

That being said, you planned on a homebirth, listened to your body, and knew you needed medical intervention. That does not mean homebirth is unsafe. It means that for this particular pregnancy YOU needed a hospital birth.

Exactly- and really, that's what homebirth is all about. Listening to your body. Knowing when something is off and you need to seek attention.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
My problem with your argument is that it assumes you can go to a hospital, decline interventions, and have a normal birth. That's not always how it works, even in a very supportive hospital environment.









s I don't think normal birth EVER happens in a hospital. Natural, yes. Normal, never. Normal does not involve signing papers.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I have removed posts that were in violation of the User Agreement or referenced or quoted posts that were in violation. Please note that the UA asks that we:

Quote:

*Do not post in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, name-calling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law.*
and

Quote:

*Do not post to a thread to take direct issue with a member. If you feel a member has posted or behaved inappropriately in a discussion, communicate directly with the member, moderator or administrator privately and refrain from potentially defaming discussion in a thread.*
Please keep in mind MDC's focus:

Quote:

*Mothering.com is the website of natural family living and advocates natural solutions to parenting challenges. We host discussion of nighttime parenting, loving discipline, natural birth, homebirth, successful breastfeeding, alternative and complementary home remedies, informed consent, and many other topics from a natural point of view.*
Please PM me, Arwyn or courtenay_e with any questions. Thanks


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

I just got through reading this whole thread and I feel like the OP really is thinking too "one size fits all". In the hospitals around here, you have almost a 50% chance of receiving major abdominal surgery just by being a maternity patient. The water isn't strange in this area; we aren't alien or different than other women. But we have had some birth injury cases won and hospitals have reacted in a big way.

I feel the OP is saying I should still go to the hospital because it's safer, because SHE changed her mind, because she feels this or that....

but that won't change the way hospitals are here.









And the OP seems to be saying, at times, that if I get a horrible infection at a hospital or a complication from an unecessary C-section or the like...I will feel better than I would have if something horrible happened at home. I feel that is projecting feelings on to other people. Not everyone thinks this way. I sure don't.


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## tireesix (Apr 27, 2006)

As far as I am concerned, I believe the following:

Some mums are better off at hospital, even if low risk, because their fear will cause problems with the birth and for the same reason, some mums will be better off at home. I cannot imagine (well, actually, having done it I can) birthing somewhere that causes you fear. Hang on though, my fear wasn't so bad then, if someone forced me to birth in hospital now, I don't think I would make it through labour lol........

Some babies are going to be better off at hospital, some at home. You can predict some, others you can't.

Unfortunutely, when we get pregnant, we all take a risk that something may go wrong, that maybe we may not make it through or that maybe our babies may not make it, however, bad things can happen no matter where you are and I am prepared to take the risks and have another home birth. I am not prepared to take the risks of a hospital birth UNLESS it is deemed as absolutely necessary.

The important thing with birth is the word CHOICE. We all should have the right to birth CHOICE. If we feel capable of giving birth at home theen we should be allowed whether other people think it unsafe or not and we should be allowed to birth in hospital if we think tthat is best. No one should be made to feel bad for their decision.

As it so happens, in dire situations, their are emergency situations for bleeds etc, I shudder at the thought of them but I am happy in the knowledge, that if I were to have a bleed, that my MW has training to deal with it, no matter how painful it would be for me (and being prone to bleeds it is something I have to be aware of).


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprilgurlie* 
My husband and I are TTC, and the way people on here talk about it, hospitals are the devil. It makes me feel like if I don't choose homebirth in the future I am a wuss, or am not doing what's best. I think every mom deserves to feel good about her birthing choice.

May I just say that when I had my first, in 1993, I had no idea homebirth was still done at all, and midwifery was not legal in my province. I did the expected thing - got care with my family physician, laboured at home for a while, then went into the hospital. I didn't feel good about it at all. It was a horrible experience, and I've been unable to enter that hospital for any reason since, without feeling edgy (I've been there for two more sections, as a blood donor, to visit other babies, to visit friends and relatives, etc. etc. etc.). I think that where many homebirth advocates are coming from is a realization that you may well go to the hospital for all the right reasons...and still not feel good about your birthing choice.

I had my first three in the hospital. I tried for a homebirth with my third. I eventually transferred, and just knowing I was going to the hospital brought me down from a long labour high. I put it off as long as I reasonably could (my transfer was non-emergency) because of fear of being in the hospital...that fear came from my experiences there. The first time I walked in, I was excited and happy and eagerly anticipating meeting my baby...then I discovered the "woman in labour has no brains and no rights and is basically a piece of meat" phenomenon.

I can't reasonably go for a homebirth next time, for various reasons, and the fact that I basically have to have my next baby in a hospital, by section, is the _only_ reason I have any reservations about getting pregnant again...the only one. None of this comes from some other women defining my birth - _*I*_ don't feel good about what's happened to me in the hospital.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

If anyone reads this ONE thread and decides against homebirth, then I for one will be glad for them...b/c there is no factual support given here for a case against homebirth..and if someone can't research more than this, then yes, they do need that SWAT team.

I am 40 this month and having a homebirth in the fall. I have read more than I probably needed to and have made an educated decision for myself..which is what everyone should do. Don't take MY word for it..or the OP's...read the studies...read the risks. I know that my chances of a hospital birth will end up one way and one way only, in a repeat c/s..and they were refer to it as an elective c/s also, even though no hospital around here will give me a choice.

My only hope for every woman is that she research all the issues..and read some of the books and resources here. Unless you do that, then yes...the hospital is probably safer for you b/c in order to have a homebirth, I do believe you need to be knowledgeable about some risks.

I wish everyone a safe birth.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprilgurlie* 
Well, I doubt that she will be posting anymore, since when she did share her feelings on the topic, she got pounced on. Whether you were all just "disagreeing" or not, having so many people refute your feelings at once just deflates a person.

I think that when anyone's freedom to speak feels inhibited because of something like this, it is a tiny tragedy all in it's own. You all have good reasons for disagreeing. But can you understand that the way you say it can seem like an attack?

I have no beef with any of you here. I would just love to see MDC a little more open to differing opinions, as I said in an earlier post. Let us tread lightly with our words.

Peace out everyone, I am goin to bed!!









It is open. But when homebirthers are told that they don't have a half open brain, things won't stay nice.

Trying to stay in the UA here.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
_Hospital proponents, in general, believe that if we just do enough, interfere enough, sacrifice our babies' health and our mental wellbeing, our breastfeeding relationships, our power and autonomy, we can have a guarantee_

I don't think being in a hospital reduces your risk to 0, nothing can.

I do agree that hospitals cause a lot of problems and that there are some bad bad ones that start talking about court orders and the like.

I do agree that inherently there are risks of infection, of not being listened to of emotional trauma etc in a hospital. We're on the same page about that, but it would also be dishonest of me to to stay quiet on this topic having changed my mind on the safety of homebirths. Just as I talked about how I felt home was the best place before I had the baby, now it's my responsibility to talk about how I no longer feel that. And I feel I'm betraying a sisterhood here. I really do.

Perhaps another approach would be for us who choose hospitals but want intervention free births to sign a waiver on admission, saying essentially we take responsibility for our choices and will not sue you. Then the hospital wouldn't feel they have to throw that 'protective net' (actually it isn't) of interventions at you.

None of us know what it's like to die. But this felt very close and it comes to me in dreams (and sometimes awake) all the time. (I'm dealing with PTSD obviously..)

The sadness I feel when I have these dreams, the sadness at seeing DH face as he contemplates a life without me and with an infant son is making me cry even now. I cannot responsibly choose to be without that safety net, even if it means I have to fight (a smallprice to pay) a little to have things my way in a hospital.

I don't want to be trite and say you can't understand unless you've been this close to death, and sadly I'm sure some of you have had experiences like this, but it's not something I can put in words very well so forgive me for not being very eloquent on this.

But I have. I had a severe pph with baby #2 and after I went into shock, had my placenta ripped out, had a seizure in front of my entire family, and the highest my bp was for 3 days was 60/30. At a hospital birth because of my induction. I almost died. That experience made me never want to step foot in that hospital again and I worked there! With my 4th, I had a pph and after an hour of working on it, we called an ambulance. They didn't do anything to help me for 2 hours after I was there. Which I must say is 4 hours sooner than they dealt with it with my ds (#2-when I had the pph in the hospital). So I honestly believe that my transfer gave me better care than being an inpatient. Not to mention I wasn't forced into an unnecessary c-section or cut against my will.

I would never sign a waiver against lawsuits. Sorry but if they mess up, check out Fyrestorm's birth story for example, they should be able to face reprecussions.

And yes, some people know what it's like to die. My mom coded for 2 minutes after an ectopic pregnancy. So yes, let's noone here be trite and assume we know where everyone is coming from. I was close to death after ds' birth and I would never birth in a hospital again.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
Out of interest.. has anyone raised the threat of suing while a nurse/doc was doing something they asked not to be done?

As in 'i'll cut an episiotomy now'

No you do not have my permission. I will sue you if you proceed. We are filming this.

has that worked for anyone?

With my first, they threatened c-sec and episiotomy over and over. I had other docs opinions repeatedly tell them it's unnecessary. During pushing, they tried to force me and I told them that they would NOT cut me. Luckily that hit my fight or flight instinct and baby finally popped out after 3 hours of pushing.







They also knew me professionally and knew that if they cut me against my will that I would jump out of those stirrups so quick they'd better run now.

I have mentioned many times to doctors that I in fact have medical experience and I have a family full of lawyers (at least on my sdad's side!) and that I'm sure they would agree with me that a c-section is not necessary. Unfortunately they continued to try to force me so I took my care out of their hands. And most hospitals will not let you film anymore.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
That reason would be soap and hot water, NOT hospital births. Good gracious.









:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
i'll try to address your point arwyn as best i can.

some women die because of hospital mistakes. agreed. but if you educate yourselves you can catch many of those before they happen. of course you could touch a door handle going in and get mrsa in a cut and get very sick, but that could of course happen at the mall too.

if someone puts the wrong fluid in an IV while you're having surgery there's not much you can do about it. you can't prevent all hospital mistakes.

Educating yourself has little to nothing to do with it. WHat about the high number of non-English speaking or illiterate people in the USA? And you are much more likely to get MRSA at the hospital.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
If someone cuts you despite you saying 'no' that's awful and would anger me greatly to say the least. but i'd rather that happen and be somewhere that saves me if i go into cardiac arrest, than be home and not be savable.

Obviously you have never been cut against your will. Or suffered from mishandling by medical personnel.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
in the case of hospitals killing someone by mistake, when that person would have been fine at home, sure that happens. i don't know how often (that would be an interesting stat) and yes that person would have been better off at home.

Yet again look at the stats on medical malpractice deaths. I already supplied the link.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
do we know whether hospitals KILL (actually result in death, not just a relatively minor procedure done against will) more people or whether birthing at home results in more deaths that would have been preventable? i do not know.

But we do. There is evidence and years of research to support it that you are unwilling to read or believe. I know you had a traumatic experience. It can be hard in those months or years after you have one. You question everything and sometimes make harsh decisions. But that gives you no right to refuse someone else's right to a homebirth or try to scare them with antecdotes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 

but i strongly feel that you can educate yourself enough to catch most potential mistakes or dangers in hospital (not all, for instance you wouldn't know if the door handle your nurse touched had a bacteria she's about to transfer to you by brushing against you - even if she washes her hands) while being in an environment with a safety net.

Have you ever in your life worked at a hospital? Trust me that even as a patient and employee you can prevent them all. And it isn't your entire responsibility to make sure that everyone is doing their job. That's theirs. I'm sure that the thousands who die every year or are injured would love to hear it was their fault because they weren't informed enough to stop it.

http://www.medicalmalpracticetoday.c...ticestats.html

Quote:

Each year more than 98,000 Americans die from Hospital Medical Errors. 1,000,000 more are injured from medical errors.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
where i live both videos and photos are allowed at births, except in the OR - and even that is negotiable for photos (with no flash)

i'm sure it isn't the same everywhere.

That doesn't mean everyone does. In fact it is getting rarer by the day.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
i'm afraid the facts do NOT say that homebirth is safer because (as i explained in an earlier post) such a study is impossible to do.

No, the studies have been provided. Again.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
the other fairly certain thing is that if you have something catastrophic happen to you and you bleed out, or your heart stops or your uterus ruptures with little warning, you will most likely have a bad outcome if you are at home.

Or if you are at the hospital. Again.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

I realize you said you won't come back to this thread, but just in case;

I'm having a little trouble with the fact, OP, that you keep posting really long, articulate, and yet extremely repetitive posts which do not address the many questions or concerns of any of the respondents. When you started this thread, you expressed that you were expecting to be attacked, and IMO, that has NOT happened. However, this is a natural family living forum, one of the very few places on the internet and in many people's lives, where we can come together because of our common interests of natural living, which most certainly includes homebirth.

What I feel like you're missing, is that the vast majority- and I mean vast- of _regular members of this board are more educated and informed about pregnancy, birth, and child care than 99.9% of the people I've met in my life, and I come from a family of doctors and professionals (excluding myself)- if I met someone who wanted to homebirth, I would direct them here for information._ To come here to share your experience is perfectly fine. To share it with the expectation that you are somehow telling most of us something we've never heard before, says more about your own information and understanding of childbirth than anything else.

Quote:

wouldn't the possibility of something like that happening to you, with all the sadness that implies, make you feel more comfortable in the only place that can handle such an event?

I think what many have been saying and what you won't hear is YES, we would prefer to have an incredibly rare, unforeseen event tragically remove us from our families forever by birthing at home, having educated ourselves and taken every necessary precaution, than to RISK our health, safety, soundness of mind and control over what happens to our own bodies and children by entering the reality of what makes up an obstetrical ward at a hospital in the US in 2008. Absolutely. And because that doesn't jive with how you feel after a traumatic experience, doesn't make it wrong, or invalid, or irresponsible. I highly recommend you TRY to see the flip side many of us have spoken of that you almost refuse to believe, of babies and mothers who die because of hospital care, including the fact that c-sections increase maternal and infant mortality, and what the real risks of having an unnecessary c-sections are once you walk through those doors.


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## Fanny1460 (Jul 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
i said i had to go to the hospital as i felt something was wrong. the m/w said i was acting as though i had the pain of transition. but i was 1cm.


A mum should ALWAYS trust her intuition. You needed to go to hospital while most of the mums won't. Whatever the midwife says, always hear your inner voice first. Midwives can be wrong.

I had a friend who lost her baby because she felt something was wrong but the midwife said to her It's just a lazy baby, don't worry if he doesn't move a lot, etc... OT but just to say always trust YOU first.

I'm sorry you had such a bad experience. I hope pregnant mums who feel discouraged by your post. I guess you have to do what feels right for you at the end of the day and it can be hospital birth. Having the choice is what matters, isn't it?

Love,

I strongly believe homebirth is safer. But if you feel something is wrong, go to hospital.


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## DoomaYula (Aug 22, 2006)

I had a hb, and then transferred afterwards for a pph and a retained placenta. I went there (to the hospital) for medical help. Here's what happened.

They gave me 2 IVs and a bag of pit, then left me, still bleeding and with my placenta still inside, for 2h. The CNM on duty found it more prudent to "deliver" two babies while I laid on my bed, bleeding and complaining of severe ctx and that I could feel the placenta inside me. I asked for pain meds and was denied because the CNM wasn't there to write for them. Finally, about 3h after my dd was born, the CNM manually removed my placenta and got the bleeding stopped.

So... they had no interest in managing my pain, they didn't feel I was emergent, and they gave me adequate, not exceptional, care.

I wish I'd stayed home.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Me, too, Erika. Me, too.


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## bean's mama (May 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprilgurlie* 
I have no beef with any of you here. I would just love to see MDC a little more open to differing opinions,


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DoomaYula* 
I had a hb, and then transferred afterwards for a pph and a retained placenta. I went there (to the hospital) for medical help. Here's what happened.

They gave me 2 IVs and a bag of pit, then left me, still bleeding and with my placenta still inside, for 2h. The CNM on duty found it more prudent to "deliver" two babies while I laid on my bed, bleeding and complaining of severe ctx and that I could feel the placenta inside me. I asked for pain meds and was denied because the CNM wasn't there to write for them. Finally, about 3h after my dd was born, the CNM manually removed my placenta and got the bleeding stopped.

So... they had no interest in managing my pain, they didn't feel I was emergent, and they gave me adequate, not exceptional, care.

I wish I'd stayed home.


Why do you consider that adequate care? They left you, possibly dying, definately in unnatural pain, bleeding, obviously more emergent than the other patient, for hours... I find that freaking abusive, and a punishment for HBing.

As for the topic of this thread-- I would rather both the baby and I die from a freak accident than have this baby in the hospital "just in case." If I had OP's birth experience, I might feel different. But I had my first birth experience, and I am too afraid to go to the hospital again unless I feel something is WRONG. At least I know that if I/we die at home, it would be from natural causes, not because someone wanted me to slow down until business hours and hurry up for their coffee break. And I know that no one at home is going to gleefully cut me open while I'm screaming "NO"... I reiterate- I'd rather die than to experience that level of shame, humiliation, guilt, fear, anger, rape, helplessness, and agony again. Flashes of it are with me everyday-- much more now that I am pregnant again.


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## MaryLang (Jun 18, 2004)

I have only read OP so far but I just thought I'd chime in. I think that you just need to trust your instincts on this stuff. What OP had sounds like a placenta accreta, I had it with my third, under different circumstances, my placenta was stuck in a previous c/s scar and my doc informed me on how close I was to having a hysterectomy during that operation. Now that birth was a planned VBA2C but my body let me know something was wrong, I had a bleeding previa at the end that required c/s, if we had gone ahead with VBAC it would have been horrible. Does that mean I think VBACs are dangerous, not at ALL! I encourage them and still think they are the safest option after a routine c/s.

I think that women need to do whatever they are comfortable with and trust themselves first. Also I think that people need to process such traumatic events for a while before coming to reasonable conclusions.
And personally having had good and bad hospital births, I wish I had just done a HB in the first place







!


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## nashvillemidwife (Dec 2, 2007)

thixle, this has been on my mind a lot of lately. I read Dr. Amy's messages and they just don't make sense to me. I think that it's just a different fundamental way of believing and living in the world. I live attuned to nature, and I just don't believe that normal birth should take place in the hospital. No one tells the Amish that their beliefs are wrong and their babies are going to die because they're being irresponsible. Why must I give up my cars and electricity to be afforded the same respect?


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## Ladybyrd (Sep 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thixle* 
And I know that no one at home is going to gleefully cut me open while I'm screaming "NO"... I reiterate- I'd rather die than to experience that level of shame, humiliation, guilt, fear, anger, rape, helplessness, and agony again.

Yeah, that.


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## Ixcuina (Feb 22, 2003)

The truth is that there ARE some emergencies that can happen at home that are more likely to end in death (to mother or baby or both) than if the birth happens at a hospital.

That is the bottom line. It is the truth. If one does not believe this or one does not think it can happen to them, then maybe one should not be giving birth at home?

It is the truth. It can happen to anyone. Now, if you are comfortable with that truth and comfortable with that risk, then you are in a position to say you are fully informed of the risks and willing to accept them to have a birth at home.

Simple really.

Some (many?) women aren't willing to look at the truth.

Birth at home if you wish, but don't try to create a truth that does not exist.

Don't go into it with your head in the sand or believing that "those things happen to other people". It can happen to any of us who birth at home. And we should understand that if we are making the choice to birth outside of the hospital. There is no point in getting defensive about it. Unless you don't understand the real risks.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Of course there are risks to home birth, but there are risks to hospital birth too. Going on and on about the risks of home birth while ignoring the risks of hospital birth is disingenuous at best.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Ixcuina, of course you understand that I could insert "birth in the hospital" for all the places you put homebirth and homebirth for all the places you said hospital and it would ring just as true...


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carriebft* 
Ixcuina, of course you understand that I could insert "birth in the hospital" for all the places you put homebirth and homebirth for all the places you said hospital and it would ring just as true...

actually more true because the risks of being in a hospital are greater.


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## Ixcuina (Feb 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *almadianna* 
actually more true because the risks of being in a hospital are greater.

This is absolutely NOT true. But, it is often the "truth" that gets spoken. It is unfortunate. Why are we so afraid of the truth?


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Seriously, just look up Nosocomial infections....


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ixcuina* 
This is absolutely NOT true. But, it is often the "truth" that gets spoken. It is unfortunate. Why are we so afraid of the truth?

It depends on the groups you are looking at and the hospitals in question.

Here we have a 50% Csection rate and a major infection problem...our NI rate is 9% *9%!!!!!!*. For a healthy pregnancy, IMO, homebirth is safer where I live!


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
Of course there are risks to home birth, but there are risks to hospital birth too. Going on and on about the risks of home birth while ignoring the risks of hospital birth is disingenuous at best.









:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ixcuina* 
This is absolutely NOT true. But, it is often the "truth" that gets spoken. It is unfortunate. Why are we so afraid of the truth?

Actually it is true. We have provided numerous studies. I suggest anyone who wants to argue against that point go and read them. So that begs the question-

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ixcuina* 
Why are we so afraid of the truth?

About hospital births.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ixcuina* 
This is absolutely NOT true. But, it is often the "truth" that gets spoken. It is unfortunate. Why are we so afraid of the truth?

excuse me, how is this NOT true?

how many are harmed or die each year from errors that a doctor makes?
MRSA?
women forced into inductions or csections that are so risky for no reason?

how is this NOT true?


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## Ixcuina (Feb 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
Of course there are risks to home birth, but there are risks to hospital birth too. Going on and on about the risks of home birth while ignoring the risks of hospital birth is disingenuous at best.

If you are speaking to my post, I said that there are some true emergencies which, if they happen at home, are MORE LIKELY to end with a mother who does not survive, a baby that does not survive, or both.

That is simply the truth. There is no point in arguing it.

I did not "ignore" the risks that may be present in a hospital setting. But, the risks that can happen at home that are more difficult to deal with at home, are not something to be dismissed....and as far as I can tell from so many previous posts, they ARE dismissed or downplayed or outright ignored.

Bottom line, for ME, is that if someone chooses a homebirth I hope they are making that choice with a complete understanding of the risks involved and a complete understanding that those risk can become reality and it can happen to them. Someone is ok with that, great. More power to them.


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## talk de jour (Apr 21, 2005)

Thank you for having the strength to share your story with us, pannacotta.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Right, homebirth has risks. If, for example, you have cord prolapse that requires transfer, you have travel time to the nearest hospital. This is one example of a risk associated with no being on hospital site.

However, what I believe people are saying here, is that there can be no real discussion of homebirth risks without looking at the flip side of the coin: hospital birth risks. Because one should not enter a hospital birth situation without realizing that there are life threatening risks as soon as you enter those doors as well.

The risk benefit analysis of where to give birth cannot only be about the risks of home. It must also look at the real and true risks of the hospitals in one's area as well.

For me, that means facing 50% Csection rates and 9% nosochomial infection rates.


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## Ixcuina (Feb 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kittywitty* 







:

Actually it is true. We have provided numerous studies. I suggest anyone who wants to argue against that point go and read them. So that begs the question-

About hospital births.

I understand the studies. They don't "prove" what you want them to.

I am not interested in arguing with you about it. Seriously, I am not. And, I knew (though I was secretly hoping it would not be the case) that my post would cause an immediate backlash of "you don't know what you are talking about" retorts.


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

To the OP: Your opinion is completely valid. You've looked at the data and at your own personal experience, and weighed the risks and benefits, and decided during your risk analysis to opt for the hospital. I, too, have been aware of all of the hospital and home risks. I do have to disagree with you regarding AFE - it's my understanding that it's almost always fatal, whether at home or at the hospital. It's also extremely rare, fortunately, and associated with the use of pitocin during labor.

Bottom line, we all have to make our own risk analysis. You can read all the studies you want all day long, and have 14 births in home or hospital to influence your opinion, but at the end of the day, it comes down to the individual's risk analysis. What risks are you more comfortable with? Where do you draw the line? Because the incidence of the severe conditions you're describing are so rare (placenta accreta w/no prior c/s; AFE; etc.), it really is not logical to apply to all people a general hospital birth prescription. Yes, you may have died at a homebirth. But how likely is that to happen to anyone else? It's so small that, when studied scientifically, you're equally likely statistically to die at home as at the hospital and less likely to be injured at home during birth. So an individual has to make her own judgment, based on fact and experience, on which risks she feels are acceptable or more acceptable than others.

I'm glad you felt like you could post your thoughts, experience, and decision here. Not everyone on MDC has homebirths or UCs! Really! I feel the hospital choice is completely valid, especially if you can find a supportive HCP who understands what you want and listens to you and respects you during birth. There are many different risks and situations during birth. It's important for each woman to understand those and choose according to what is right for her, and will be acceptable to her later.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ixcuina* 
I understand the studies. They don't "prove" what you want them to.

I am not interested in arguing with you about it. Seriously, I am not. And, I knew (though I was secretly hoping it would not be the case) that my post would cause an immediate backlash of "you don't know what you are talking about" retorts.

Tell us what they do not prove. What do you feel people want them to prove that they do not prove?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ixcuina* 
Bottom line, for ME, is that if someone chooses a homebirth I hope they are making that choice with a complete understanding of the risks involved and a complete understanding that those risk can become reality and it can happen to them. Someone is ok with that, great. More power to them.

And bottom line for ME is that if someone chooses hospital birth, I hope they are making that choice with a complete understanding of the risks involved and a complete understanding that those risks can become reality and it can happen to them. If someone is educated on that and okay with that- fabulous.

IME homebirthers are MUCH more educated on the risks on BOTH sides than hospital birthers.

-Angela


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## Ixcuina (Feb 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carriebft* 
Tell us what they do not prove. What do you feel people want them to prove that they do not prove?

The are no studies that "prove" homebirth is safer than hospital birth.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

in 2004, the infection rate in _well baby nurseries_ was 2.56. Nearly 20,000 infections reported in the well-baby nurseries in our country.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dhqp/pdf/h...ons_deaths.pdf


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ixcuina* 
The are no studies that "prove" homebirth is safer than hospital birth.

studies actually cant prove anything like that, either way actually... studies can however show us who has a great mortality rate, infection rate, csection rate, and other things like that.


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ixcuina* 
The are no studies that "prove" homebirth is safer than hospital birth.

I'm sure you have responses to this, but the BMJ study is the one generally relied upon these days. Mortality, for mother and baby, was equal in home and hospital for low-risk mothers. Morbidity was lower at home.

I don't want to get into a big debate of study methods, arguing how data was parsed, etc.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ixcuina* 
The are no studies that "prove" homebirth is safer than hospital birth.

Are there studies that "prove" hospital birth is safer than home birth?


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ixcuina* 
The are no studies that "prove" homebirth is safer than hospital birth.

People are showing studies and saying they demonstrate the increased risks of a hospital birth in certain important categories. Taken together, for many people, that can definitely prove that, for them, homebirth is safer.

_____

But alsom we must understand, for example, that some things we would consider to be death related to birthing are not considered to be so by our hospital system. If your epidural falls out and is reinserted without proper infection prevention and you die from an infection due to this....that would not be included in the numbers for mortality resulting from birth.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ixcuina* 
Bottom line, for ME, is that if someone chooses a homebirth I hope they are making that choice with a complete understanding of the risks involved and a complete understanding that those risk can become reality and it can happen to them. Someone is ok with that, great. More power to them.

I feel the same about someone having a hospital birth.

I do understand why the OP (and others) feel so biased against home birth. Our experiences definitely shape us and our opinions.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
IME homebirthers are MUCH more educated on the risks on BOTH sides than hospital birthers.

-Angela

Oh I agree with this 100% I have a friend (of a friend really) who is a student midwife currently working in labor and delivery in one of the largest hospitals in the LA area. She said that when she goes through her required list of questions for women who check in to L & D that 9 out of 10 first time mothers have no birth plan, have taken no childbirth prep classes and have studied no method for pain management. They just assume they go to the hospital and do what the doctor tells them to do and go home with a baby.


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## Ixcuina (Feb 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Romana9+2* 
If you're a Dr. Amy aficionado, I'm sure you have responses to this, but the BMJ study is the one generally relied upon these days. Mortality, for mother and baby, was equal in home and hospital for low-risk mothers. Morbidity was lower at home.

I don't want to get into a big debate of study methods, arguing how data was parsed, etc. If you don't know Dr. Amy's website, I'd be happy to pass it on to you as she does a lot of that and it might be interesting for you. But from your posts, I'm guessing you already visit that site. HTH.

I am not going to take your response as "snark" though it reads that way.

Yes, I know who Dr. "X" is.

In fact, I am banned from ever posting there.

I have had 2 out-of-hospital births. One a waterbirth.

I have taught childbirth classes to homebirth couples for over 7 years.

Some of my best friends are homebirth midwives who send their clients to me.

Do my "natural birth credentials" pass the test? Ok, that was a bit of "snark" from me.

It does not do anyone any good to ignore the facts. We must be willing to face them and accept them or we are doing ourselves (and our families) a disservice.

I am not anti-homebirth (obviously) but I am for understanding the truth about all of our options.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Thought this was an interesting quote from Peggy O'Mara (the owner and publisher of Mothering Magazine/MDC):

Quote:

*When a birth doesn't turn out as we hoped it would, we often look for someone to blame. Sometimes we blame our practitioner, sometimes we blame others present at the birth, and often we blame ourselves. Someone recently asked me if I thought that homebirth was the only normal type of birth. I said, "No, of course not." Mothering publishes articles about homebirth to give people one image of normal birth. If we believe that homebirth is safe, then we will believe that birth itself is safe. And because birth in any setting can be safe, its integrity is based not on where it takes place, but on the quality of the experience. With this in mind, let us work together as parents and professionals to imagine and implement a high quality of maternity care in the US. The time is right.*
From her current editorial









Please take care to avoid making this topic personal in an effort to keep the thread on the board.

Please also avoid mentioning *other* sites that are antithetical to Mothering's advocacy and values. Edits would be helpful. Thanks!


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)




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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Ahem









I really don't want to have to remove this thread. It's a lot of work on my part







Please consider editing to remove references to other discussion sites whether they are specifically named or not. Thank you


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

This whole discussion reminds me a lot of the vaccination debate. For me, the big issue with the way vaccines are done in the USA and elsewhere is that is it "one size fits all."

Framing the debate on homebirth/hospital as "X is safer than Y" also risks this same problem.

With vaccines, family history, travel, area you live in, conditions you live in, sensitivities, illness, and other risk factors come into play.

Just as with vaccines, "where to birth" cannot be boiled down to an AAP recommended schedule or a College of OBGYN recommendation. It can't be contained in one or two studies....it has to be individualized to each woman. her condition, risk factors, history, and current pregnancy and situations along with the risks and benefits of the specific hospitals in her area must be taken into account.


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## MammaB21 (Oct 30, 2007)

I wanted to say that I am truely sorry for your experience OP. And am glad you and baby are okay in the long run. On that note, I don't really see how your experience proves homebirth to be unsafe by any means. Actually, I see the oposite in your story. IMO, homebirth teaches us one very important thing, and that is to listen to our bodies, and instincts. This is something you did EXCELLENTLY in your birth. You knew right away that something was wrong, and you got yourself to a place where you could be taken care of. Again, IMO, hospitals generally take away from our womenly insticts during labor. I deffinately beleive that homebirth is safer then a hospital birth for the generall public. Doctors have their place, and in your situation, they saved a life that day. And that is what they are here for if we need them. But unfortunately in a normal birth, being in a hospital can cause more harm then good. I saw your stats of the rareity of your condition being 1/60,000 births. I would like to see stats that show uncomplicated births in a hospital virsus at home, and compare outcomes including use of iv's, meds, vacuum, foreseps, appesioutamy, c-section, (and the medical effects on those to mom and baby). Also treatment of mom and baby afterbirth, cutting cord, taking baby away, interfiering with breastfeeding relationship, (and the effects these things had on mom and baby long term). And the flip side of all of these not being used in a homebirth. And any negetive effects of not having these things present in a birth. Oh, I am sure they are out there, and I am betting the odds are quite a bit higer then 1/60,000 for things to go wrong in a hospital in an otherwise normal birth.


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ixcuina* 
I am not going to take your response as "snark" though it reads that way.

Yes, I know who <snip for MDC mods!> is.

In fact, I am banned from ever posting there.

I have had 2 out-of-hospital births. One a waterbirth.

I have taught childbirth classes to homebirth couples for over 7 years.

Some of my best friends are homebirth midwives who send their clients to me.

Do my "natural birth credentials" pass the test? Ok, that was a bit of "snark" from me.

It does not do anyone any good to ignore the facts. We must be willing to face them and accept them or we are doing ourselves (and our families) a disservice.

I am not anti-homebirth (obviously) but I am for understanding the truth about all of our options.

I think you've misunderstood me. Understandable, since it's hard to get tone across online.

I have had one UC/hospital transfer and one home waterbirth. I'm strongly considering having an epidural in a hospital next time. Hope that shakes you up a bit, too!

I didn't think for a minute you were 100% anti-homebirth. And I think some rational and reasonable points mat be made "against" homebirth. There are points of value to examine when looking at the data. I don't dispute that. At the end of the day, though, because there is dispute and because the data is difficult to parse and some of it is based on personal perspective, it's not reasonable or rational, IMO, for anyone to tell low-risk mothers where to birth. They should educate themselves and make the best decision for themselves.

If you read my first post, I validated the OP's position and choice. I feel it's entirely valid. I'm not a rabid homebirth supporter. It has to be an informed choice. So should hospital birth be, but that's not and is not going to be the case for the vast majority of mothers. Personally, I think homebirth probably is a bit riskier than hospital birth in terms of rare catastrophic outcomes, despite the BMJ study. And I think some good points have been made about that (elsewhere). But that does not, IMO, invalidate the homebirth choice. Each individual must make the choice that is correct for her. She must examine the attendant risks and benefits and choose. And she should be informed - fully informed.

I think we're on the same side. Or similar. I'm sorry for any misunderstanding.


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## Synchro246 (Aug 8, 2005)

I've read a good bit of this thread, but not all.

OP, I do believe that home birth is safer for low risk women (on average) compared to hospital bith--which is why, as long as I am considered low risk, I will plan homebirths.

HOWEVER, I do also believe that hospital birth CAN be improved to the point where the safety will surpass homebirth. Many of the things that hospital birth causes don't have to be. It would take monumental shifts in protocol and culture, but it's fully possible for hospitals (or more specialized birth centers--facilities with hospital capabilities, but where only birthing women go) to have lower morbitity and mortality rates.

I do not believe it is at all reasonable to expect a woman to labor effectively at the same time as interacting with hospital personel--esp if she's having to fend off procedures left and right. I'm sure some women can get into "the zone" and continue to produce the endorphins she needs in a hospital just as I am sure some women cannot.

If there ever is that monumental shift in birth protocol that allows women to be *entirely* alone or only have the monitoring that is normative of homebirth except when the need for more intervention arises then, sure, I think the risk/benefit of home vs. hospital might shift. Until then, homebirth is still statistically safer for low risk women.

In short, I am all for the third option you propose and I think homebirth should always be a legally protected option too.

oh-- and I've had a hospital transfer with my first and a completed homebirth with my second.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thixle* 
As for the topic of this thread-- I would rather both the baby and I die from a freak accident than have this baby in the hospital "just in case." If I had OP's birth experience, I might feel different. But I had my first birth experience, and I am too afraid to go to the hospital again unless I feel something is WRONG. At least I know that if I/we die at home, it would be from natural causes, not because someone wanted me to slow down until business hours and hurry up for their coffee break. And I know that no one at home is going to gleefully cut me open while I'm screaming "NO"... I reiterate- I'd rather die than to experience that level of shame, humiliation, guilt, fear, anger, rape, helplessness, and agony again. Flashes of it are with me everyday-- much more now that I am pregnant again.

I think this is the crux of the issue. I've written about 6 posts to this thread, and deleted them all, until now. So here goes...

I had both of my children in the hospital, by c-section after rather quick/easy labor/dilation and hours of pushing in various positions, etc....I knew what I was getting into, and mitigated interventions as much as I possibly could so I feel like I wasn't railroaded and made informed decisions based on the knowledge and physical/emotional resources I had at the time. Still disappointed and will always wonder if things would have been different if I had just done X, but I feel far from violated, which must be so horrific.









However. For *me*, the thought of me or my baby dying at home (or en route to the hospital) from something that could have been prevented at a hospital is just too much for me to bear. I realize that the likelihood of it happening is really, *really* rare. And I realize that it's mostly about my own issues and fear. I also realize that bad things happen in hospitals and people are bullied and have things done to them and get infections and other problems. I *know* all that. I know that in many hospitals, women cannot manage interventions and are bullied. But still, I would not be comfortable having a homebirth. And there it is.

HOWEVER however. I also would never dream of trying to tell any other woman that she should birth in a hospital if *she* is most comfortable birthing at home. And I'd never try to tell someone that hospital birth is safer than homebirth. Because I know that's not the case. It is SO individual to each birth. I know that hospital births can lead to unnecessary interventions and other potential problems (but then I also have several friends IRL who walked into the hospital in labor, had no interventions, not even a hep lock, and wonderful spontaneous vaginal births). I guess from my own personal point of view, my ability to recover physically and emotionally from the potential problems at a hospital is greater than my ability to recover physically and emotionally from the potential of losing a child to a rare occurrence that could have been prevented being in the hospital...but I suppose if something had happened AT a hospital that killed my child that likely would not have happened at home, I would probably feel differently. It's all about our scopes of experience, our own personal 'issues', and how we process things.

I'm sure most of you probably think I'm crazy or uninformed or whatever to not want to birth at home. And I'll be honest, I'm envious of homebirthers, because it does sound so heavenly to me. I guess just not heavenly enough, for *me*. And I'll always have the chicken/egg thing going on in my brain, if I would have been secure enough to birth at home would I have been able to push the kids out, or would I have had to transfer anyway because neither of them would descend even though, especially the second time, I was unfettered and pushed in every position conceivable? There were several mamas in my DDC who were passionate about homebirth and made herculean (seriously) efforts to homebirth and wound up having to transfer for real complications and wound up with emergency sections. So I don't know. Would it have happened for me at home? Would it not? I'll never know, because I'm done having children. But the 'what if' of whether I *honest to God medically needed* the sections or not is something that I can deal with, and comes into my mind less frequently as time goes on. It was my body, my choice, and I'm able to heal. The 'what if' I would go through if I lost a child and it could have been prevented in a hospital, or the thought of leaving my first child motherless are 'what ifs' I just would not be able to recover from. The guilt I would place on myself would just be too much to bear. But that's *me*.

I think that's where we're all different; our ability to get over and process different events is as individual as our personalities and our DNA.

The point is, I'd never take it upon myself to tell any other woman what *her* fears and deal breakers should be. I know my own personal fears and deal breakers regarding birth itself are pretty different from most members here. And my willingness to accept potential risks from the medical community are foreign to most here. But once the babe is earthside, I'm pretty well aligned with MDC, so that's why I stay around, and lurk in the homebirth section from time to time, and read wonderful homebirth stories and cry tears of joy.

Peace, ladies.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I could handle it if something happened to the baby or I at home (well not really, but be more at peace with it) than if something happened to the baby or I at a hospital.

My sister contracted a serious infection at the hospital when she was born, and it was touch and go for a while.


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## DocsNemesis (Dec 10, 2005)

I just wanted to add to this....

I had a birth center birth with my 3rd and I hemorrhaged immediately after her birth. My midwives did more for me in 3 minutes than the hospital did in 2 hours. Yes, bad things can happen. That doesnt mean that the outcome will be horrible. I was bleeding, gushing blood, for over 3 hours before they did a D and C on me. THREE HOURS. They were all freaking out over everything-yet they made me wait 3 hours. The nurses told me later that they had a mom the week before deliver in the hospital, lose less blood than me, and she didnt make it. Obviously delivering in the hospital is not some magic cure all.

I was at the hospital within 10 minutes of my bleeding starting. My midwives were the ones who got IVs started, who removed the clots preventing my uterus from contracting at all, who gave me 3 seperate meds to help my uterus contract. They reduced the bleeding a lot. When I got to the hospital, I had 10 cytotec pills shoved up my bum and that was the extent of their care. I also got to listen to nurses going on about how this was my fault for not having a hospital birth, the OB telling me I was going to have a hystorectomy, my midwives being treated like garbage.

The whole reason this happened was that the baby, who was not genetically mine (I was a surrogate), had an extremely short cord and it pulled on the placenta on her way out, leaving a little chunk behind. There is absolutely no way that they could have known this and there is no way that me having her at a hospital would have changed ANYTHING.

Looking back, would I do it again knowing what would happen? YES. Why? Because at least the baby was born and healthy and never had to go near the hospital. The treatment hospitals give to newborns sickens me and I'm so glad that she never had to deal with that. Instead, her mom and dad got to bond with her and snuggle her the whole time.

I had a homebirth after this with no problems at all. I am planning another one. My dh knows that if it even happens again, that he is NOT to bring the baby to the hospital, at least until I am able to nurse.

Having said that, I know my body, if I felt something was wrong, yes, I would go to the hospital to at least be checked out. I had my 2nd in the hospital because of preeclampsia. Stuff does happen and I am glad for the technology at the hospital that can save peoples lives. That doesnt mean we all have to be there; homebirth is still perfectly safe and I have no doubt that the hospitals cause more deaths and complications then they prevent. Honestly, something is odd with this pregnancy, and we dont know what, but if we find something out or I feel like I should be at the hospital, I'll go.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Birth is not one size fits all. It's a hard lesson that I'm learning myself. It's also important to remember that a persons ideal birth doesn't always align with their history and what is safest for them.

Obviously the OP is processing her birth and like all women, needs time to work through it. That may continue for years and her feelings on what is best my change and evolve.


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## barefootpoetry (Jul 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I had both of my children in the hospital, by c-section after rather quick/easy labor/dilation and hours of pushing in various positions, etc....I knew what I was getting into, and mitigated interventions as much as I possibly could so I feel like I wasn't railroaded and made informed decisions based on the knowledge and physical/emotional resources I had at the time. Still disappointed and will always wonder if things would have been different if I had just done X, but I feel far from violated, which must be so horrific.










However. For *me*, the thought of me or my baby dying at home (or en route to the hospital) from something that could have been prevented at a hospital is just too much for me to bear. I realize that the likelihood of it happening is really, *really* rare. And I realize that it's mostly about my own issues and fear. I also realize that bad things happen in hospitals and people are bullied and have things done to them and get infections and other problems. I *know* all that. I know that in many hospitals, women cannot manage interventions and are bullied. But still, I would not be comfortable having a homebirth. And there it is.

HOWEVER however. I also would never dream of trying to tell any other woman that she should birth in a hospital if *she* is most comfortable birthing at home. And I'd never try to tell someone that hospital birth is safer than homebirth. Because I know that's not the case. It is SO individual to each birth. I know that hospital births can lead to unnecessary interventions and other potential problems (but then I also have several friends IRL who walked into the hospital in labor, had no interventions, not even a hep lock, and wonderful spontaneous vaginal births). I guess from my own personal point of view, my ability to recover physically and emotionally from the potential problems at a hospital is greater than my ability to recover physically and emotionally from the potential of losing a child to a rare occurrence that could have been prevented being in the hospital...but I suppose if something had happened AT a hospital that killed my child that likely would not have happened at home, I would probably feel differently. It's all about our scopes of experience, our own personal 'issues', and how we process things.

I'm sure most of you probably think I'm crazy or uninformed or whatever to not want to birth at home. And I'll be honest, I'm envious of homebirthers, because it does sound so heavenly to me. I guess just not heavenly enough, for *me*. And I'll always have the chicken/egg thing going on in my brain, if I would have been secure enough to birth at home would I have been able to push the kids out, or would I have had to transfer anyway because neither of them would descend even though, especially the second time, I was unfettered and pushed in every position conceivable? There were several mamas in my DDC who were passionate about homebirth and made herculean (seriously) efforts to homebirth and wound up having to transfer for real complications and wound up with emergency sections. So I don't know. Would it have happened for me at home? Would it not? I'll never know, because I'm done having children. But the 'what if' of whether I *honest to God medically needed* the sections or not is something that I can deal with, and comes into my mind less frequently as time goes on. It was my body, my choice, and I'm able to heal. The 'what if' I would go through if I lost a child and it could have been prevented in a hospital, or the thought of leaving my first child motherless are 'what ifs' I just would not be able to recover from. The guilt I would place on myself would just be too much to bear. But that's *me*.

I think that's where we're all different; our ability to get over and process different events is as individual as our personalities and our DNA.

The point is, I'd never take it upon myself to tell any other woman what *her* fears and deal breakers should be. I know my own personal fears and deal breakers regarding birth itself are pretty different from most members here. And my willingness to accept potential risks from the medical community are foreign to most here. But once the babe is earthside, I'm pretty well aligned with MDC, so that's why I stay around, and lurk in the homebirth section from time to time, and read wonderful homebirth stories and cry tears of joy.

Peace, ladies.

This was a beautiful post and I think you are FAR from crazy! In fact you sound VERY informed! Why? Because you are making good decisions for YOU and not trying to force them onto anyone else, and at the same time acknowledging that the opposite choice is also valid and safe. That's wonderful, and quite admirable. I can't imagine anyone being bothered by your stance, not even here.









If a woman is not comfortable with choosing homebirth for ANY reason then she shouldn't have one. Same goes for a woman uncomfortable with the hospital! Any kind of cookie-cutter mentality bothers me. We are all SO different. Each woman is different. Each pregnancy that each woman has will be different. Each labor and birth is different. Each baby is different. To expect the same outcome by squeezing all these variables into the same mold each and every time is foolish. Ever since we were children we've been told over and over how unique each of us is....why should that change now that we're adults?


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## mwherbs (Oct 24, 2004)

OP as far as stats go your birth would be included in the home birth numbers- just like in the BMJ article on home birth where the gal transferred in early labor and the hospital ruptured membranes and prolapsed the cord and the baby died. You would actually be a "success" story because you transferred and even though you had all those complications you and your baby are still alive.
In reading though your story it is an amazing set of fortunate events that prevented your death.

where was your placenta attached low, high?


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

I agree with other posters who have said that the key to the OP's situation was listening to her intuition when she felt something was not normal.

OP- In my case my son and I were happy and healthy BECAUSE we stayed home. My 2nd son had true shoulder dystocia. Honestly I had a feeling the whole pregnancy that he would- I don't know why. That's why I decided against having him unassisted like I had originally planned. I felt I would need a pair of skilled hands to help him out. I also decided against a hospital birth because I know that my midwife is more skilled (and has experience) calmly handling such an emergency whereas most Dr.s will freak out and start wasting time doing things like cutting an episiotomy or pushing on your stomach(makes no sense because shoulder dystocia is a problem with bone, not skin and an epi does nothing to enlarge the pelvis just the skin and muscle, pushing on a woman's stomach just gets the baby even more lodged). In fact, I had a friend who had her baby 5 days before my son was born at the local hospital and her baby also had shoulder dystocia and what did they do? They had 4 nurses on her belly applying pressure while the Dr. was freaking out and tugging every which way on the baby. The baby ended up with a black eye and she tore badly. It took them a while to get him out of her. Me on the other hand, I didn't even know there was an emergency- my midwife was just calmly working him out and telling me to push when I needed to in order to get his body the rest of the way out. My son was fine and I didn't even tear. There was no chaos or panic.

I don't think there is one right answer as to where is safest to birth. You have to weigh the risks of home vs risks of hospital (btw Marsden Wagner wrote a good bit about the risk of amniotic fluid embolism being higher among women who are given Pitocin). It is always important to listen to your body and intuition in pregnancy, labor, and birth. Your story is a powerful exam ple of that. Thank you for sharing.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
*We cannot prevent all birth related deaths.* It's just not possible, even in an ideal world. One of the big differences in philosophy between hospital birth proponents and homebirth proponents is whether we understand and accept that. Hospital proponents, in general, believe that if we just do enough, interfere enough, sacrifice our babies' health and our mental wellbeing, our breastfeeding relationships, our power and autonomy, we can have a guarantee. We can have a symbolic talisman that will protect us. But it's not true - we introduce more risks that way, trade one type of death risk for another.

This encapsulates my feeling on the topic, but I've never really been able to put it into words. I personally wasn't ready to have a homebirth until I could move from feeling that if I had a bad outcome at home, it wouldn't mean I was any more guilty of causing it than if I had had a bad outcome at a hospital. There is the idea that if you give birth at a hospital, you are doing all you can do, but at some point I really began to feel that that just wasn't a good enough reason. It's not that I'm against hospital birth, and I might actually choose one, but I definitely support a major overhaul with our medical system and how we handle birthing in the hospital.


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## Ixcuina (Feb 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DocsNemesis* 
I just wanted to add to this....

homebirth is still perfectly safe and I have no doubt that the hospitals cause more deaths and complications then they prevent.

Ok, here is where I find myself going









Respectfully, how exactly did you come to this conclusion?

Honestly?

Homebirth and even simply giving birth with a midwife is something that such a tiny minority of those of us who live in the USA do. And as most of you know, there are constant threats to the continuing legality (in the states where it is legal!) of homebirth here.

It really behooves anyone who cares about continued choice in birth to not be spouting out "truths" unless they are sure of the truthfulness of them. I realize I am using the word "truths" and we could argue for ages about what that actually means and who gets to decide what the "truth" is, etc.

But, I am sure most people understand what I am saying.

If you say "I have no doubt that the hospitals cause more deaths and complications then they prevent" and "homebirth is perfectly safe" then you really should be able to back it up.

Just my opinion, of course.


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## thefragile7393 (Jun 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ixcuina* 
Ok, here is where I find myself going









Respectfully, how exactly did you come to this conclusion?

Honestly?

Homebirth and even simply giving birth with a midwife is something that such a tiny minority of those of us who live in the USA do. And as most of you know, there are constant threats to the continuing legality (in the states where it is legal!) of homebirth here.

It really behooves anyone who cares about continued choice in birth to not be spouting out "truths" unless they are sure of the truthfulness of them. I realize I am using the word "truths" and we could argue for ages about what that actually means and who gets to decide what the "truth" is, etc.

But, I am sure most people understand what I am saying.

If you say "I have no doubt that the hospitals cause more deaths and complications then they prevent" and "homebirth is perfectly safe" then you really should be able to back it up.

Just my opinion, of course.

Haven't studies been linked in this thread already? Or did I miss something?


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## Ixcuina (Feb 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Romana9+2* 
I think you've misunderstood me. Understandable, since it's hard to get tone across online.

I have had one UC/hospital transfer and one home waterbirth. I'm strongly considering having an epidural in a hospital next time. Hope that shakes you up a bit, too!

I didn't think for a minute you were 100% anti-homebirth. And I think some rational and reasonable points mat be made "against" homebirth. There are points of value to examine when looking at the data. I don't dispute that. At the end of the day, though, because there is dispute and because the data is difficult to parse and some of it is based on personal perspective, it's not reasonable or rational, IMO, for anyone to tell low-risk mothers where to birth. They should educate themselves and make the best decision for themselves.

I think we're on the same side. Or similar. I'm sorry for any misunderstanding.


Romana9+2,
thanks for the clarification. Like we have both said, sometimes the tone of the conversation is lost with the internet!

I completely agree that it is not reasonable or rational to tell low-risk women where to birth. Absolutely!

And are the studies that have been done so far lacking and the data difficult to parse? Absolutely!

My whole point is that there are some complications that cannot be dealt with at home in the same manner that they can be dealt with in a hospital setting. And, in the case of these rare but possible complications if they happen, there is a much greater risk of death at home. Fact.

Does that mean everyone should rush to their nearest hospital to give birth so that no one dies??? Well, I can't answer that. I would not want to answer that. It is only for the woman (and her family?) to answer that on an individual basis.

I have no problem with homebirth (as stated earlier, being a woman who has never given birth in a hospital), but I do have a problem with people deluding themselves as to the the "perfect safety" of it.

But, I admit, it just *bugs* me personally. Nothing I want to do about it on a whole. I am mostly venting! Though, I do think that in the long run it can harm the continued ability to give birth at home for some women in states where the legality is being undermined. And, as an educator, I believe strongly in the importance of being fully informed about your choices.

My .02~!


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## Ixcuina (Feb 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thefragile7393* 
Haven't studies been linked in this thread already? Or did I miss something?

There are no studies that show homebirth to be "perfectly safe".

And there are no studies showing that "the hospitals cause more deaths and complications then they prevent."

I know some of us would like to believe this. But, that does not make it true.


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## barefootpoetry (Jul 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ixcuina* 
And are the studies that have been done so far lacking and the data difficult to parse? Absolutely!

What makes them lacking? Honestly, I'm curious. It seems odd that one would demand proof and then when such proof is provided say that it's not good enough, so if there are flaws in the numerous studies provided in this thread, I'd like to know what they are so I can further educate myself.


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## Ixcuina (Feb 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *barefootpoetry* 
What makes them lacking? Honestly, I'm curious. It seems odd that one would demand proof and then when such proof is provided say that it's not good enough, so if there are flaws in the numerous studies provided in this thread, I'd like to know what they are so I can further educate myself.

Hi barefootpoetry,

I am about to make a grocery run and move on to dinner demands









But, I will get back to you later. For now, understand that I am saying (and I am not the only one) that the studies that have been done so far comparing homebirth to hospital birth all have a certain amount of issues with them (understandable, because it is difficult to compare 'apples to oranges' but it is possible to be done in a reasonable way).

So, I have not "demanded proof" only to get it and then say it is not good enough. My "demand" for proof was more of a rhetorical statement. I know that there is no "proof" that homebirth is "perfectly safe" or proof for the other comments I have pointed out. I think it is important to not throw out statements like that willy-nilly. It doesn't help "the cause".


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## barefootpoetry (Jul 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ixcuina* 
Hi barefootpoetry,

I am about to make a grocery run and move on to dinner demands









But, I will get back to you later. For now, understand that I am saying (and I am not the only one) that the studies that have been done so far comparing homebirth to hospital birth all have a certain amount of issues with them (understandable, because it is difficult to compare 'apples to oranges' but it is possible to be done in a reasonable way).

So, I have not "demanded proof" only to get it and then say it is not good enough. My "demand" for proof was more of a rhetorical statement. I know that there is no "proof" that homebirth is "perfectly safe" or proof for the other comments I have pointed out. I think it is important to not throw out statements like that willy-nilly. It doesn't help "the cause".

Understood.







I'm sure most of us would agree that NOTHING in life is "perfectly safe," especially birth, and yes, you are right in saying that there is no study that says that. However, I have read a good deal of them that DO say it is equally safe, if not marginally safer, than hospital birth for low-risk women. Perhaps that is what other posters here are meaning, and are just getting a little carried away with their wording?

I look forward to your views on the studies! I'm always eager to learn something new.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ixcuina* 
I have no problem with homebirth (as stated earlier, being a woman who has never given birth in a hospital), but I do have a problem with people deluding themselves as to the the "perfect safety" of it.

I have no problem with hospital birth (as stated earlier, being a woman who has given birth in a hospital), but I do have a problem with people deluding themselves as to the the "perfect safety" of it.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Home birth is not completely safe.

Hospital birth is not completely safe.

Human childbirth has its own inherent risks.

It simply comes down to educating a woman about her choices and allowing her to make take the calculated risks in the location she is most comfortable and chooses to birth in.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

coming in here telling us how we are wrong without proving your side is really going to convince nobody.


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## ananas (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tireesix* 
As far as I am concerned, I believe the following:

Some mums are better off at hospital, even if low risk, because their fear will cause problems with the birth and for the same reason, some mums will be better off at home. I cannot imagine (well, actually, having done it I can) birthing somewhere that causes you fear.

Very well said, and great point. That's exactly why I could never birth in a hospital- I am deathly afraid of the idea. Some women are deathly afraid of homebirth...that's not a bad thing, it's how they feel. It's good to be educated on both sides, though.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprilgurlie* 
I have no beef with any of you here. I would just love to see MDC a little more open to differing opinions, as I said in an earlier post. Let us tread lightly with our words.

So, should we start being supportive of circumcision? Start encouraging mamas to not bother with breastfeeding, formula is "just as good"? Should we encourage mamas to CIO and spank their children?

This forum has a theme and a purpose. It is to support and encourage mothers who choose natural ways of parenting their children. There's plenty of opinions within that spectrum without bringing other topics in. In general, this community as a whole is more supportive, and agrees more with, of homebirths than hospital births. The community shouldn't have to change their opinions and beliefs to welcome other ideas and beliefs that don't really mesh with MDC.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ixcuina* 
This is absolutely NOT true. But, it is often the "truth" that gets spoken. It is unfortunate. Why are we so afraid of the truth?

I agree, why are you so afraid of the truth? You seem to be picking and choosing "truths" so you can believe what you want.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
I could handle it if something happened to the baby or I at home (well not really, but be more at peace with it) than if something happened to the baby or I at a hospital.

My thoughts exactly- I'm glad someone else voiced them as well.


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## Ixcuina (Feb 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
I have no problem with hospital birth (as stated earlier, being a woman who has given birth in a hospital), but I do have a problem with people deluding themselves as to the the "perfect safety" of it.

And I would have a problem with that too. You get that, right?

There is no such thing as a "perfectly safe" birth choice.


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## Ixcuina (Feb 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ananas* 

I agree, why are you so afraid of the truth? You seem to be picking and choosing "truths" so you can believe what you want.



You don't seem to understand what I am saying. What truth am I afraid of exactly? Did you really read my previous posts? I have had 2 out-of-hospital births. I have taught childbirth classes to women planning homebirths for many years. I have the support and friendship of all the local midwives. Some of them have attended my classes.

I only say these things to point out that I am far from an "anti-homebirth" person or a "pro-hospital" person.

I would just prefer that those of us who birth at home do so knowing full well what the risks specific to that choice are.

This should not be cause for an uproar. Or an attack.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ixcuina* 
And I would have a problem with that too. You get that, right?

There is no such thing as a "perfectly safe" birth choice.

Yep. Then we agree!

I don't know anyone who thinks that birth is ever perfectly safe. People are just choosing what is less risky for them, most comfortable for them. Well, ideally, that is.


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## donutmolly (Jun 9, 2005)

Just wanted to send a post to the OP after reading this entire thread... hope you're still reading although it may be too difficult for you to post.

I get what you're saying... you did the research, planned a homebirth, and then something terrible happened. It makes it a lot different when the statistic is YOU, not some woman somewhere who is just a number. And maybe part of your reason for posting here was to say: "hey ladies, it could've been me, and it could be you!" I want to validate your feelings as totally reasonable.

I also want to say that I do agree with you (and Ixcuina) that there are certain possible complications that could come out of nowhere that could be dealt with at a hospital, and a mother or baby's life could be saved, that could not be dealt with at home resulting in death for mom or baby.

However... I think what many are trying to say is that that particular real risk is balanced for many by the possiblity (however small or large) that a hospital could actually cause an otherwise normal birth to become complicated and result in trauma, surgery, or death for either mom or baby.

Since in either case of home or hospital birth both maternal and baby mortality is so low (one of the reasons it is difficult to come up with studies that compare the risks of both), many women (particularly those on MDC) decide that the risk of death or complication that can't be well dealt with at home or by transfer is less than the likelihood of the hospital causing complications that require surgery, or other negative consequences.

Many of us who make that decision do rely on studies (many of them specifically about the risks of hospital births -- injuries, surgeries, infections), which seem far off and irrelevant when you have experienced something very traumatic.

My guess is that in processing your birth you have a great desire to warn others so that no one will have to go through what you went through, or potentially an even worse situation. And that is a wonderful, tremendously positive desire!

I think what many have tried to point out is that basing our birth choices on your experience alone is not logical. That would be like me suggesting you should really try to stay home next time because I had 2 amazing homebirths with no adverse events whatsoever. As someone who also suffered from PTSD (not from birth) -- I want to encourage you to continue to explore and work through your feelings. They are absolutely real, and worthwhile. Maybe MDC can be one of the places where you can continue in this journey of healing....

I think you're very brave for coming and posting in a place where you knew you would not be agreed with, thanks for helping us all process our birth choices a little more.

There was an earlier thread (oh, how many months ago? I'm lousy at the search feature, maybe someone can help me out?) about whether people were choosing to homebirth because of the negatives of the hospital, or if there was something inherently positive about homebirth. There were many well thought out responses that are wothwhile revisiting.

I think we can all agree that many many hospitals need to make changes to better serve birthing women. And that women should be truly free to choose whether to birth at home or in a hospital.

Blessings


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## stacyann21 (Oct 21, 2006)

Excellent post donutmolly! That's all


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## nashvillemidwife (Dec 2, 2007)

I published this today: http://www.nashvillemidwife.com/safety.html

I tried to read the text of all the studies and point out the weaknesses. Despite knowing the body of research, I was surprised that in the end I only had 3 studies that showed hospitals to be safer. Of course one was the Washington study. None of them were applicable to low risk women who planned their home births with trained attendants. Those 3 studies are contrasted with 35 showing same or better outcomes for home births.

Please let me know if you know of something I've left out. This is a work in progress.


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## barefootpoetry (Jul 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nashvillemidwife* 
I published this today: http://www.nashvillemidwife.com/safety.html

I tried to read the text of all the studies and point out the weaknesses. Despite knowing the body of research, I was surprised that in the end I only had 3 studies that showed hospitals to be safer. Of course one was the Washington study. None of them were applicable to low risk women who planned their home births with trained attendants. Those 3 studies are contrasted with 35 showing same or better outcomes for home births.

Please let me know if you know of something I've left out. This is a work in progress.

WOW! That's a LOT of info, thanks! I saw a few studies in there that I haven't come across before. Thank you so much for putting those all in one place and summarizing them neutrally. Very helpful, I'm adding it to my bookmarks.


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## nashvillemidwife (Dec 2, 2007)

Thanks. I've been working on this for 4 years!


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## barefootpoetry (Jul 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nashvillemidwife* 
Thanks. I've been working on this for 4 years!

And it shows!

I am glad you included the Australian study too. I've always wondered about that one, as most countries outside of the U.S. usually have such good birth outcomes.


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## A_Random_Phrase (Mar 27, 2008)

I haven't read the whole thread so this may have been said, but it sounds like your instincts were telling you to go to the hospital. You listened and thus you were saved. I think the number one "rule" is to listen to your soul. Good job!


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## Novella (Nov 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 
. . . those of us in earthquake zones often buy quake insurance, even though it's such a rare event. we don't rely on 'it isn't going to happen to me' because we just don't know.

. . . when something bad happens, and you don't know if it's going to happen to you, wouldn't you rather have that (imperfect) but potentially lifesaving safety net?

I guess I'm not seeing your very own analogy the way you are seeing it. In my assessment, suggesting that all women are better off birthing in hospital (or in that imaginary/impossible intervention-free birth centre attached to a hospital) is like saying that buying earthquake insurance isn't "good enough". No, no! To be properly safe, everybody should be changing locations - moving out of earthquake zones, possibly taking up residence near emergency services so that help (if required) will be speedily available.

Similarly, I know that by living in a small town (ie. hours and hours away from a major trauma facility) I worsen my chances of surviving a serious heart attack, devastating car accident, etc. But I'm weighing "possible" versus "likely" and throwing in some "definite" considerations about how moving to a major city would change my life - just like a homebirther comparing her home and a hospital.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
I think the OP is coming from a place of fear, depression, and grief and I hope she heals soon.









:

Hugs to you, Original Poster. It sounds like you've been traveling a very anxious and stressful journey in your processing of the health complications that surrounded your child's birth.


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## barefootpoetry (Jul 19, 2007)

Ixcuina, where'd you go? I've been waiting for you to get back to me about the flaws in the studies. I'd hate to have been citing them for all this time if they are not sound.


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## Dia (Nov 23, 2006)

Reading this entire thread including the OP's story has done nothing if not completely support the case for homebirth, and solidify my belief in the safety of homebirth. Can't wait to do it.

Dia


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thefragile7393* 
Haven't studies been linked in this thread already? Or did I miss something?

You didn't miss anything. People just don't want to read them or believe them.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kittywitty* 
You didn't miss anything. People just don't want to read them or believe them.

To be fair (and have no doubt, I firmly believe that homebirth is _safer_ for most mamababies), it's rather that people can read the same studies and come to different conclusions. No study is perfect (no study CAN be perfect), so all are open to some interpretation, which means that the biases and beliefs _we_ bring to reading them influences our conclusions based on them. This is normal and to be expected (although frustrating when we're trying to convince someone else of something WE find to be SO OBVIOUS, and they're just not seeing it







).


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## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pannacotta* 

when something bad happens, and you don't know if it's going to happen to you, wouldn't you rather have that (imperfect) but potentially lifesaving safety net?

I'll take my chances with the one-in-a-thousand chance of needing instant emergency medical attention that can't be done at home by a skilled midwife (which likely isn't instantly available in my fairly rural area hospitals anyway). In the 999 other cases, I'd much rather be at home and have all the many, many, many advantages of a homebirth. I know there are risks to a homebirth, just as there are risks to ANY birth (and any pregnancy). There is also a very high chance that if you birth at a hospital, regardless of how committed you and your support team are to birth just the way you want it, at least one thing will happen that you did not want. For some people, that one-in-a-thousand chance of something happening where you are better off in a hospital is worth the 90% or more (I'm guessing at the numbers here) that your hospital birth experience will be less, sometimes vastly less, than what you wanted. I think most homebirthers feel the opposite.


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## elfinbaby (Mar 17, 2002)

Pannacotta ~ I feel like I do have that lifesaving net. That "instant" emergency medical need is so unlikely. And if there is an emergency/complication, our mws or our instincts should kick in (as the op's did I might add) so that we have plenty of time to get to the hosp, calling ahead to let them know we're on our way w/an emergency. Simple. It's not 100% full proof but I'll take those odds since I believe the odds are stacked against me of having a safe birth in the hospital.

Fear is running rampant through the birthing community and it makes me terribly sad. It's robbing so many women of having good, safe births. I don't birth in the hospital for a lot of reasons. One of the biggest reasons is that I am so much more likely to have an unnecessary intervention and it's also very likely I will have to "bargain" or get "permission" for basic rights - to walk around, eat, drink, be left alone, have my baby right after birth, "room-in" etc. That's not even to mention the other unnecessary protocols like EFM, hep locs, etc. If women have to bargain for the birth they want, they are probably putting themselves at risk for unnecessary interventions that could lead to more interventions that have a weightier consequence. And those could potentially lead to life threatening circumstances that were actually caused by the dr./hosp. It happens. Can happen at home but it's far less likely.

I did my research 10 yrs. ago about the safety of homebirth so I can't go through all the various books/research I did. Now, when I need a little confirmation, I just flip through Ina Mae's latest book and look at her stats. She's tracked her mama's for 30 yrs. That's plenty good for me.


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## threadbey (May 20, 2007)

i've been wanting to chime in here but only just now managed to sit down and read all that's been posted. so much has been said in so many ways, i'll just rephrase one of those things that is key for me:

all the studies taken together told me that the risk of death to me or to my baby was the same or unknowably slightly higher or lower for a low risk planned homebirth *with a qualified attendant* vs. a hospital birth in the same circumstance.

YES, the risk of an unknown placenta accreta causing massive blood loss at home or of a rare amniotic fluid embolism is terrifying.

BUT, the risk of a fatal infection from an unnecessary c/s, or any of the other wacky things that can happen to you in the hospital is also terrifying to me.

the various studies (yes, no study is perfect) told me that, in the rare case that i or my baby met with one of those rare fatal complications at home or at the hospital, THE CAUSE OF DEATH at the hospital MIGHT BE DIFFERENT than at home, but the RISK OF DEATH FROM ANY CAUSE would be pretty much the same in both places. since i care more about the RISK of death than the CAUSE of death, i feel VERY comfortable choosing to birth at home, where i also get to avoid the risk of forceps, pitocin, vacuum extraction, episiotomy, etc., which are also risks which terrify me, though they be not fatal







.

IF somehow hospital risks improve or a new study convinces me hospitals are clearly safer by some amount, i would have to reconsider. but i would probably be willing to accept a slightly higher (but still very low) risk of death at home in order to avoid the (to me) very high risk of (non-fatal) birth injury/trauma at the hospital (and in order to have the chance of repeating the beautiful experience that my first homebirth was for me). but, that's me and has a lot to do with my many bad experiences with condescending doctors and the many horrible stories i've heard from friends that have scared the bejeezis out of me.









also, statistics are statistics and necessarily take no account of local/individual conditions. if i had the option of an OB i trusted or a MW i didn't (yes, i can imagine that happening), i would go with the OB. if i lived far from a hospital, i'm not sure what i would do, but i could imagine choosing to go to the hospital at the onset of labor. i'm thankful those aren't my only options.

my heart goes out to the original poster. i am glad you are still with us and alive to be mommy to your lucky baby. i am glad you posted here and gave us something to think about. i wish you peace and healing. and, by all means, plan to birth in the hospital next time if that is what makes you most comfortable!


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## barefootpoetry (Jul 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *threadbey* 

YES, the risk of an unknown placenta accreta causing massive blood loss at home or of a rare amniotic fluid embolism is terrifying.

Well, to be fair, those things would kill you in the hospital too.







OBs love to quote the "a woman can bleed to death in under five minutes at a homebirth" line, but you'd be screwed no matter where it took place if it were so. Same for AFE, which is almost always fatal.


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## threadbey (May 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *barefootpoetry* 
Well, to be fair, those things would kill you in the hospital too.







OBs love to quote the "a woman can bleed to death in under five minutes at a homebirth" line, but you'd be screwed no matter where it took place if it were so. Same for AFE, which is almost always fatal.









how about "those things COULD kill you in the hospital too." i don't have studies at my finger tips, but i would hazard a guess that chances of survival are better (if still slim) if you are in the hospital when those particular crises occur. as the original poster said, it's amazing she survived at all - there's no way she would have survived had she not been in the hospital when the problem reached crisis point and was recognized. she did have a better chance in the hospital and the technology and professionals available at the hospital saved her life. but, yes, it might have gone the other way, even in the hospital.

if i could know that i was going to have a massive bleed or an embolism, i would ABSOLUTELY choose to have the birth in the hospital so as to have whatever faint hope of survival i could. but the point is we can't know those things ahead of time. and we can't know ahead of time who will die or be injured because (or in spite of) the fact that they were at the hospital.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Studies have shown repeatedly that mothers are more likely to survive homebirth; even Dr. Amy acknowledges that, and that is really saying something. You are more likely to hemorrhage in a hospital, especially after a C-section, than at home, and midwives are trained to handle hemorrhage. You are using the fact that you went to the hospital, early in labor, and then hemorrhaged after a C-section to decree that homebirth is unsafe...which makes no sense. Your story is simply proof that C-sections and hospitals are dangerous.

You're correct that if you're high risk for serious conditions like accreta, you probably are safer in the hospital; that's why midwives risk people out of homebirth and refer them to the hospital, rather than accepting them as patients. While midwives are trained to handle most complications, there are a few that can only be handled at the hospital, like ruptured uterus or cord prolapse. There are some obstetric emergencies where you can do about as much at home as you can in the hospital, depending on what it is. That's no reason to say that EVERYONE should birth in the hospital though.

As for midwives and hospitals working together, THAT is a great goal. There are places that do that...birth centers. Sadly there are too few of them.


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## barefootpoetry (Jul 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *threadbey* 







how about "those things COULD kill you in the hospital too." i don't have studies at my finger tips, but i would hazard a guess that chances of survival are better (if still slim) if you are in the hospital when those particular crises occur.

Well, okay, I'll give you that.







You're definitely right there. But odds still aren't that great, even in a hospital. AFE has a 60-80% mortality rate. And I believe that if placenta accreta is diagnosed prior to labor, the mother shouldn't go for a homebirth...of course, there are cases like the OP's where it wasn't discovered until it was almost too late. Thankfully technology is MUCH better now at detecting accreta and we now have a 7% mortality rate instead of 25%...and thank heavens that the OP was tuned in so well to her body that she was able to recognize that something was going horribly wrong!

And as for the fabled "bleed to death in five minutes," yes, it would still kill you no matter where you were. A massive PPH would certainly better handled in a hospital, for sure, but one of that magnitude is beyond help, sadly. You have the word of my nurse friend who has attended many births and birth-related crises in the past 20 years on that one.

Thank the gods that a woman's chance of suffering any of these things is very, very slim!


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## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

So you planned a hb, felt intuitively that something was wrong early on, and went to the hospital where you needed to be. Thank you for reaffirming my decision to hb. I truly believe that if there is a real need for me to be at the hospital, then that is where I will end up.

I do agree that the whole climate of birth in hospitals needs to change also, because not everyone is a hb candidate.


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

I have not read all the responses, but I cried when I read your story. I too had placenta accreta after the birth of my first daughter. A D&C stopped the bleeding, but immediately after the birth of my second daughter, I almost bled to death (and to those who say OBs love to quote patients could bleed to death in five minutes, well let me tell you as an RN, YES, I did almost did bleed to death in under 10 minutes, they COULD NOT stop the bleeding) and I had to have an emergency hysterectomy. I TOTALLY agree with you! 100 percent about the birth in a hospital! Thank you for writing this! It is rare to have placenta accreta, but when it does occur, it can be deadly and I am glad you trusted yourself and wish you the best. Thanks again for writing this mama. You are a brave woman!


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## ColoradoMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mytwogirls* 
I TOTALLY agree with you! 100 percent about the birth in a hospital!

Thank goodness you're okay. BUT - what you're telling me is that because YOU had a very rare problem that made it safer for you to birth in a hospital - I should increase my odds greatly of suffering from a hospital induced problem in case I have a very rare problem that would necessitate being in a hospital? See - I can't get behind that line of thinking.


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## barefootpoetry (Jul 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mytwogirls* 
I have not read all the responses, but I cried when I read your story. I too had placenta accreta after the birth of my first daughter. A D&C stopped the bleeding, but immediately after the birth of my second daughter, I almost bled to death (and to those who say OBs love to quote patients could bleed to death in five minutes, well let me tell you as an RN, YES, I did almost did bleed to death in under 10 minutes, they COULD NOT stop the bleeding) and I had to have an emergency hysterectomy. I TOTALLY agree with you! 100 percent about the birth in a hospital! Thank you for writing this! It is rare to have placenta accreta, but when it does occur, it can be deadly and I am glad you trusted yourself and wish you the best. Thanks again for writing this mama. You are a brave woman!

OMGoodness, what a terrifying experience! Thank heavens you're okay and lived to tell about it.

But I just want to say that I never said a woman can't bleed out in five minutes. It definitely does happen. My point was that OBs use this line as some sort of excuse for why no one should homebirth...when in reality, it happens so rarely, and when it does, there's not a whole hell of a lot that can be done. I'm very grateful that you had competent surgeons on hand and that you survived....but if I had been in your shoes I would be dead, because it took the ER staff HOURS just to figure out where my bleeding was coming from, let alone get me a transfusion and take me to the OR.

Again, thank you for telling us your story.


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, my OB is wonderful and very skilled.
ColoradoMama: I think every woman is different when it comes to feeling comfortable in birthing in general. I worked as L&D RN for over three years and now for my OB /GYN and through this I personally feel more comfortable birthing in a hospital. That is just ME, I know MANY MANY moms do not feel comfortable in a hospital. I am sorry so many of you have had problems and issues with hospital births. Despite my traumas I can honestly say my stay at the hospital was great. From the staff, to the OB to the nurses, I have nothing bad to say. I know, I know, many have had awful and down right terrible experiences. I would never, never, be comfortable birthing at home, maybe I am too chicken.







Looking back, I am so glad I did not decide to birth at home because I would not be alive typing this reply


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## A_Random_Phrase (Mar 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybee* 
So you planned a hb, felt intuitively that something was wrong early on, and went to the hospital where you needed to be. Thank you for reaffirming my decision to hb. I truly believe that if there is a real need for me to be at the hospital, then that is where I will end up.









:
At least two of us are aware of that, maybe more. It, also, reaffirmed my confidence in home birth and in mother's intuition.


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## ColoradoMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mytwogirls* 
Yes, my OB is wonderful and very skilled.
ColoradoMama: I think every woman is different when it comes to feeling comfortable in birthing in general. I worked as L&D RN for over three years and now for my OB /GYN and through this I personally feel more comfortable birthing in a hospital. That is just ME, I know MANY MANY moms do not feel comfortable in a hospital. I am sorry so many of you have had problems and issues with hospital births. Despite my traumas I can honestly say my stay at the hospital was great. From the staff, to the OB to the nurses, I have nothing bad to say. I know, I know, many have had awful and down right terrible experiences. I would never, never, be comfortable birthing at home, maybe I am too chicken.







Looking back, I am so glad I did not decide to birth at home because I would not be alive typing this reply









I'm a firm believer that women should birth where they feel comfortable, and for some women that is in a hospital. I really wish hospitals, in general, were the kind of places where women could feel comfortable birthing there if they wished. I am also a firm believer in listening to our intuition and bodies. The OP listened to her intuition and I believed it saved her life. I've listened to my body and intuition during my births, and I believe it saved at the very least some complications and possibly interventions (when I birthed at a hospital). We, as a society, need to learn to trust in ourselves as much as we trust in the medical profession.


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ColoradoMama* 
We, as a society, need to learn to trust in ourselves as much as we trust in the medical profession.

Yep, you hit the nail on the head. I think we should do that and now this is MY opinion but I think the "best" birth is a birth in which the mom and baby are both healthy and happy about the experience whether it is in a hospital or at home. For me it was surrounded by nurses I trusted and my OB whom I trust and rely on. I am just so thankful I was in a hospital when I gave birth looking back on my situation though.


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## tireesix (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mytwogirls* 
I would never, never, be comfortable birthing at home, maybe I am too chicken.

Got nowt to do with being chicken, its about comfort levels. Some women just aren't COMFORTABLE (ooops, almost wrote comfartable) birthing at home, they prefer the comforts of a hospital. For me, what other women find to be a comfort in hospital ie Obs, machines etc is something that is so alien and cold to me that personally, it makes me uncomfortable, but then, I despise hospitals anyway, I would be much happier if I could just have an operating team come and sort me out at home for whatever ailments I have (and considering NHS hospital food, I would probably do a whole lot better).

So, if you are too chicken to birth at home, then I am too chicken to birth in hospital lol.

Its all about choice and comfort, ALL women should have the CHOICE to birth in an environment that they are most COMFORTABLE in.

I could bang on about how great home births are for years, but if the person I am talking to simply isn't comfortable with that idea then I expect it would be a waste of energy and air. I will always mention how great a home birth is BUT that is only so that a women might open her mind to it if she hadn't thought of it as a possibility before.

When it comes down to it, I am a breastfeeding advocate and a natural childbirth advocate but I am also very much into choice.


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## elfinbaby (Mar 17, 2002)

Fear and reliance on "experts" has allowed women to lose touch w/their intuition in pregnancy and cb - jmo. There's a place for experts and this thread has discussed them thoroughly







But, in general, that wildfire of fear that has been breeding in the last 150 yrs. is engulfing women's idea that a healthy, uncomplicated, preg./birth can actually exist (particularly w/o experts, extensive testing, technology, interventions). Also, we have almost no touchstone in our society right now for women to become familiar with the natural process. Just look at the boards - ?'s about bleeding, cramping, baby's position, and just plain old fear that "I can't do this" or "Is this normal?". We come to the boards and run to the hcp b/c we can't go across the street and ask another mama or we've never seen a natural birth or, maybe, we've never even been around a newborn. And by the time you factor in $$ that is being made at our preg./birthing expense - oh, it's tough to go up against that.

Fortunately, for the OP her instincts rang loud and clear. That's encouraging to me. I have no fear of birthing at home but, in the event I need to be w/the "experts", I hope my inner self finds a way to communicate as well as hers did







It's so ironic that the OPs story unintentionally provides proof (if you will) that hbing is safe and women know more about where they need to give birth than anyone (including ourselves) gives us credit for.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tireesix* 
So, if you are too chicken to birth at home, then I am too chicken to birth in hospital lol.

That's me. I'm facing a scheduled section with my next baby, and I'm absolutely terrified...and I'm not even pregnant yet! There are a lot of reasons for my choice to do it, but I still feel backed into a corner, and I don't know if I've got the guts to walk in that door again - it took everything I had and then some with ds2. However, in addition to everything else, I'm now getting to where accreta is a relatively _likely_ complication for me...thanks to the hospital...


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mytwogirls* 
... For me it was surrounded by nurses I trusted and my OB whom I trust and rely on. I am just so thankful I was in a hospital when I gave birth looking back on my situation though.

I am glad the choice is there for you; you made the best choice for yourself, and I am glad it all worked out.

For me, and many others here at MDC, home is where the heart is and where my babies were born, all four. I had complications with the first two that I know would have ended up as caesareans in the hospital. Why would I put myself at that risk, risking infection, scar tissue, anesthesia complications, hemmorhage, breastfeeding problems, and a protracted recovery postpartum period with the hospital routine, instead of having my own babies at home and saving the hospital confinement for those who need it?

I do not believe I needed the hospital and I made the right decision to stay home. I chose the best attendants for me, educated myself, and prepared my mind for the labor to come.

It worked out for me. One cannot argue with success.


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## Greenmama2AJ (Jan 10, 2008)

I haven't read all of the thread. Just jumping in.

I know that feeling of "geez, I'm glad I was at hospital.". Third degree tears. Heaps of bleeding.
I arrived at hospital at 8cm. Had a great non-interventioned, natural, drug free, upright birth. But at that last moment, was so glad I had a surgeon stitching me up there and then.

I totally support homebirth though.
I think that the very rare chance of something going wrong at home can be preferrable to the very great chance of something going wrong at the hospital.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elfinbaby* 
Also, we have almost no touchstone in our society right now for women to become familiar with the natural process. Just look at the boards - ?'s about bleeding, cramping, baby's position, and just plain old fear that "I can't do this" or "Is this normal?". We come to the boards and run to the hcp b/c we can't go across the street and ask another mama or we've never seen a natural birth or, maybe, we've never even been around a newborn.









This is SO true. So sad, and so true.


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## Sage.Naissance (Feb 5, 2008)

This situation seems to have been very well managed. The midwife spotted early signs of a problem and transferred, where the hemmoraging was dealt with quickly and efficiently. A hospital is a place you want to be when you have hemmoraging like that. That being said it is my believe that a) a midwife is intuitive and expert in birth, she was able to identify a problem and very appropriately you were transferred to a hospital. b) In hospitals women are not provided with enough one on one attention to spot problems early in labour quite often to the detriment of women. Nurses have too many patients and rely almost exclusively on Fetal heart monitors, which only tell a small part of the story. As a doula, many of my very experienced colleauges have been the first to spot problems in a labour and had to inform the medical staff, problems that could have been quite dangerous (this is why my doula training includes more in depth detail about problems in labour and how to read EFMs). This is my biggest argument FOR homebirth, women have the consistent medical attention require to diagnose any indications of problems in labour which is NOT the case in hospitals.
As far as I am concerned this story is an argument FOR homebirth rather than against.
I am sorry that you had a scary and life threatening experience but thank God you had a good midwife who saw the signs that your pain was an indication to trasfer.
I second the statement about being too chicken to give birth in a hospital! (and I see it all the time-all of my doula clients give birth in hospitals)


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## UnassistedMomma (Jan 24, 2006)

I have to agree that this story is an argument _in support of_ home birth, rather than against it.

An important premise of homebirth, whether attended or unassisted, is that a woman will intuitively listen to her body and answer the cues that she hears and respond appropriately.

What happened with OP is _exactly_ what should have happened during a homebirth with complications. Your body told you that something wasn't right, and you responded appropriately! That's how it's supposed to work, and it did!

I hope you find healing in your situation.


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