# ARRRGGGH ! MIL cut my boys' hair !



## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

I am SOOOO angry ! My MIL recently was watching my boys and while she had them she cut their hair ! Both of my boys had shoulder length hair (which my bf and I both love, and so did the boys) and we intended to keep it that way. But she took out the scissors and cut about 5 inches off my 8 y/o's hair and about 4 off the 6 y/o's ! Their hair is still covering their ears but it is MUCH shorter than we (or they) want it to be !!! They said they cried and screamed and told her to stop, but she did anyway ! Their hair looks AWFUL short, but I refuse to cut it anymore to "fix" it. At least its still a little longish. I was livid when I got back and told her so ! What should I do now ? How would you mamas approach this ? I feel she should be "punished" somehow for violating what SHE KNEW was against our wishes. BF thinks we should "ground her" from seeing the boys for awhile, and I tend to agree. But what does everyone else think ?? Help !


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## green betty (Jun 13, 2004)

to you, Shann. I would have burst a vein!

Um... I think that this is one of those difficult time that gives you an opportunity to grow as a parent! What would you think of framing the issue as "putting your kids first" and switching to supervised visits only with your MIL until you feel like you're reached a new level of trust (IF that happens?) If you feel like you can, I would urge you to put yourself in your boys' shoes and imagine what it's like for them to see you react to this. "Punishing" grandma doesn't do any good for anyone in the long run, and teaches them that punishing a loved one is an acceptable way to deal with conflict. Your boys deserve to have a relationship with her and be able to form their own opinions--whether she deserves the same or not. And on the other hand, I think it would do them a lot of good to see that you'll stand up for them (by refusing to leave them alone together and pursuing a discussion with her) and not allow her to violate their bodies like she did!

Just my .02. Oh, and I'd eat some very good chocolate too.


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

Thanks for the idea ! I will consider that and also would like to hear more opinions. Thanks alot ! And yes, I almost did pop a vein ! Still feel like I might !


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

OMG!!!! I would be so livid!!!!

I agree that "punishing" isn't quite modeling the best way of dealing with conflict, but I think it would be very fair to tell her your trust has been violated and you can't allow unsupervised visits anymore. Also, your kids are old enough to say how they feel about it. Do they want to visit her again? I might leave it partially up to them, although I wouldn't frame it to your MIL as "they don't want to see you" if that happens to be the case.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

I'm all for "punishing" in this case. I'd avoid her for a few months and then only visit when I could be there. Maybe I have ramparts for boundaries, but this kind of thing strikes me as way out of line.


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

This happened to my ex-husband's brother and his wife. My ex-MIL cut her grandson's hair while she was babysitting. He was about 2.5, I think. His parents were really, REALLY mad. They had wanted to grow a long lock of hair to snip off and put in the family Bible.

Anyway, I don't recall them grounding her from spending time with him, but she certainly knew how they felt and she wasn't asked to babysit for a long time after that.

Of course, the kids parents were also idiots for letting her babysit to begin with, since she was frequently buzzed/drunk. I do believe she'd had a few beers before getting out the scissors.


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## Elphaba (Nov 19, 2001)

I think she needs to apologize to your boys and to you for such blatant disrespect.


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

What gets me most from the OP is the boys cried for her to stop, and she just kept on cutting.










A grandma is a grandma, & you don't get to pick&choose them, but would definitely "ground her." And then tell her after she's "out of time out" that she can't see the boys unsupervised anymore at all.


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

She violated a trust. Would you send your sons to stay with or allow anyone else who had violated your, and their, trust to watch them? Of course not.

Why should she get a pass just for being their grandmother?

If someone cannot be trusted in small things, they most likely cannot be trusted with important. Hair is ultimately a small thing in that it grows back. Care and respect for the boys as human beings with their own wishes for their own bodies OTOH....

Seems to me she's failed on both levels.


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## andreac (Jul 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Elphaba*
I think she needs to apologize to your boys and to you for such blatant disrespect.









ITA!!!

I also think that supervised visits are the way to go for a looooong time. That fact that she would just ignore their pleas for her to stop is the really frightening thing to me!








to your boys.


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## lynsage (Jul 13, 2004)

i agree with the other posters that the most disturbing aspect of the whole incident was that she didn't stop when they wanted her to stop.

that's grounds for no more unsupervised visits, imo- not to punish her, but to keep your kids from being further traumatized by her disrespectful behavior toward them. i'd just tell her that refusing to accept a child's non-consent on something being done to their bodies sets very dangerous precedents, and nobody that violates your kids' boundaries gets to be around them without you there ever again.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Yep, I think that the original action was out of line (way out of line), but the fact that your sons asked her to stop and she didn't respect them raises more and larger flags for me. I would definitely explain that she is not allowed unsupervised visits until your sons and you are comfortable with it again. And I would also tell her that an apology to your children is expected as the first point on any contact. But, I would not break of contact completely because there is a special relationship there and that deserves to be respected too. What a nasty situation all the way around!


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

My MIL did this to my dd when she was 17 mos. She had nice shoulder-length hair with bangs, and MIL cut the bangs to about half and inch long and then cut off a bunch of the hair on one side, while leaving the back and other side untouched. It looked like dd did it herself while she was drunk or something.










Grandparents do not deserve the same rights as parents. (Of course, I believe a child's hair belongs to the child, but if the child is too young to care about looks then it's the parent's decision.) But your boys knew how they wanted to look - how sad.







Getting to see the kids should be a privilege for the gp's, not something that is expected.

I would ground them from babysitting until they understand that what they did was wrong, and try to educate them on childs' rights.

But if you decided they should never be alone with them again, I'd understand that too!







:


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

I'd explain to MIL why what they had done was unacceptable, that they wouldn't be left alone with my child until I knew they were old enough to defend themselves, and it'd be a long time before they saw the kids again. I agree that if they can't be trusted with small things, they certainly can't be trusted with big ones.


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## kaimama (Jul 21, 2003)

I agree with the majority here, no unsupervised visits until you feel you can trust her again. I wonder if your boys will even want to be left alone with her after she did such an awful thing to them. *hugs*


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Oh, Shann, I am soooo sorry. I've read posts before about your DS's hair and that is just horrible.

I would be most concerned w/my sons willingness to stand there and *let* her cut their hair off! First, I would have a long talk w/them about their bodily integrity and how they, and only they, have the rights to make those type of choices about their bodies (if that is how you feel). I can't believe your kids stood for it!

Then, I would have a looooong talk w/MIL how she has hurt and betrayed your entire family. She needs to make reperations to your sons (that can be between them, but I do think she owes them something to at least partially make up for the loss--- perhaps an item of clothing, hair get, etc... that makes them feel good about their appearance). In addition, she has made a strong statement about not accepting them for who they are, which is disturbing to me and them I assume.

This would also concern me about what other ideas she has, and what she would be willing to do (against your very obvious wishes) if you are not there.








Sorry once again. That is just sooo horrid.


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

Almost ALL of you have hit upon the thing that we find most frightening as well...the fact that she kept on when my boys were crying and asking her not to do it ! That REALLY scares me ! She is an intimidating lady to kids---even my bf admits that his mom always was intimidating to children---but guess what ? I'M NOT EASILY INTIMIDATED, and certainly not by her ! But the boys were intimidated and were afraid to do more than cry and ask her to stop. The cool thing is that my bf and I both have a united front on this against his mom, so things are great in that area. But the boys are now scared to go over there ! And NO child should have to be scared of their own grandmother !! She is DEFINITELY going to have to apologize to all of us (esp. the boys) and I also like the idea of her making reperations to them in some form. Beyond that, though, we both feel that there needs to be even more "punishment" ...we just haven't fully decided what yet. We are leaning toward some form of extended "grounding" from her seeing them for awhile followed by supervised visits for a LOOOONG while, but we haven't fully decided yet. The "grounding" from her seeing them won't hurt the boys right now anyway, since they DON'T WANT to see her ...they were very traumatized by the incident, as you may imagine ! Plus, they LOVED their long hair (so did we !). Yes, it will grow back, but it shouldn't have been cut in the first place ! (My youngest son barely even remembers having his hair cut EVER before) ! We have already expressed our red hot anger and she is, so far, unremorseful...saying that she "couldn't STAND their long hair one second more !" CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS LADY ?????? Keep the opinions coming...I am still in the deciding stage.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Well, you could hold her down and let the boys shave her head...


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

LOL @ Greaseball ! GREAT IDEA !


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

What gets me most from the OP is the boys cried for her to stop, and she just kept on cutting.
Exactly. Cutting their hair against MY wishes is one thing (although that would also piss me off), but when they are begging her to stop? I would be livid!

What do your boys have to say about it? Are they angry with her?

I definitely wouldn't allow her to be around them unsupervised - not to punish her, but just because you obviously can't trust her! I'm not trying to be overly dramatic, but cutting their hair while they cry for her to stop sounds abusive to me.


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## katt (Nov 29, 2001)

ground her from seeing them until their hair is as long or longer then it was.


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

Katt, that's a REAL good idea, cause she cut quite a bit off their hair ! It was well down on their shoulders ! That could take it until next spring or maybe early summer before she would see them again, because both boys have rather slow growing hair ! I love that idea, esp. the "longer than it was" part, because we had plans to let it get considerably longer than it was anyway. It could be a year before she sees them again, and I really like that thought ! Thanks !


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## frand (May 8, 2004)

What's really interesting is your note that your bf told you his mother was intimidating to children. That's a unique and honest statement for a guy to make about his mother--makes you wonder what she was like to him when he was a child. She needs a major 'check' on her actions around your children. I wouldn't think in terms of punishment because that puts you in a role you may not want. But I agree trust has been broken and you can't trust her right now and that's pretty much what I would say to her. You can't put a date on when that's coming back. I just wouldn't leave them alone with her.


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## Stevie (Jun 20, 2004)

Well, you could hold her down and let the boys shave her head

****************************































and until she agrees; no visits!! ah otoh, we don't want the boys to end up just like her... I would tell them that this is what I *want* to do though! Under no circumstances would I allow her unsupervised visits unless she got some serious therapy. Just tell her the truth; that you'll never trust her again since she HURT your boys so brutally. It was a rape, nothing less


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## Ann-Marita (Sep 20, 2003)

I wouldn't allow her to see the boys until your sons ask for it. Under no circumstances would I make your boys visit unless THEY want to. (I also like the "until the hair grows back idea.)

And I wouldn't allow unsupervised visits until your sons are strong enough (physically and/or emotionally) to fend off her attacks. That might be until they're grown.


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## reilly's momma (Oct 3, 2002)

I would leave it up to your boys as to when to see her again. They are the ones who deserve a relationship with her, if they want it. So if they want to go see grandma next week, although that doesn't sound likely, but if they do want to, then they should be allowed. On the other, more likely hand, if they don't want to see her for a year or two, well, that should be up to them as well.

But I do completely agree that when/if they ever choose to see her again, it should be supervised. The fact that she is so sure she is right to the point of not even offering any sort of apology even AFTER the fact also disturbs me a great deal. I would be wondering what else in the past she may have done against your wishes, perhaps in terms of food, discipline, etc.

And whatever you do decide, no matter how livid you are, put your parent hat on & calmly explain to her that she now has to deal with the consequences of her improper behavior & actions, for two reasons. One, because it it the proper, mature way to handle the situation, and two because it will throw her off, she'll be less likely to know how to repond. She is expecting the anger, and is obviously all geared up to respond to it. Or better yet, let the kids tell her what her consequences will be (with you present of course, or listening in if it's on the phone). Ask them what they think would be a fair consequence (I hate to use the word punishment, even if it is kinda appropriate this time) for grandma's actions. Since she showed no regard for their opinions when she forced her opinions on hair length upon them, I think it is perfectly fair to reverse the situation.


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

MIL and I had a HUGE battle last night on the phone ! She called and said she felt we needed to "talk" (which I agree with), but she then proceeded to try to make it a monologue instead of a talk. She said she knew I would be mad when she did it, but that she was tired of my kids looking like "dirty little hippy GIRLS" and had decided to take matters into her own hands because "no grandkids of mine are going to look like that !" (She has always made little comments about the way I dress my boys, saying that they always look "dirty" to her ...which they are NOT...because they like to wear holey jeans, old t-shirts, and grubby sneakers without socks. They enjoy playing like all boys do, and yes, they get really dirty and stinky sometimes, but they wash up when they choose to). She has also always hated their long hair. I knew she didn't like the way I dress my boys -- granted it's sloppy !--, but I never DREAMED that she would do something like this ! In the conversation, she was still COMPLETELY unrepentant and at one point said I was lucky she hadn't shaved their heads to make them look like boys !!!! OMG !!
Well, you can imagine where the conversation went from there (I will spare you the details). Other issues came out, including the fact that her son and I have never been married and have had 2 kids "in sin" (GIVE ME A BREAK !!! It's not 1950 anymore, lady !). I did my best to maintain my composure, but all in all I let her know that she would NOT be seeing her grandkids again for a long time (if ever again). I also asked her why she continued to cut when the boys cried and asked her to stop. She said "sometimes kids need to be told what they need by adults !" She said the boys cried, screamed and even swore at her to get her to stop, and she was more determined not to then...because their "tantrum" showed her how badly I was raising them !!!!! I was LIVID ! I seriously thought I would have a stroke !!!! I am DONE with her !!!! (Hearing all that, I can understand why the boys swore at her ! I would have too, in their situation !! (and no, they WON'T get punished for having done that, so don't even suggest it). Comments ? Suggestions ??


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## weebitty2 (Jun 16, 2004)

My comments : wow, what a @#*$&! I wouldn't let them see her, unless they choose to sometime in the future. Honestly? (I'm not a very polite person when I get angry, and I am SO ANGRY for your little guys!) I'd tell 'er to sit on her fists and bounce.


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## Ann-Marita (Sep 20, 2003)

Don't ever make your boys visit her. When (if?) they decide to visit her at some point in the future, supervise the visits until, like I said earlier, they are able to stand up to her intimidation and verbal (and physical) attacks.

Have your BF tell her this - that you aren't letting her see them until the boys ask for it and that even then the visits will be supervised. Emphasize that the boys were very deeply hurt by her actions and that you doubt that they will ask to visit her any time soon. She violated them! She did something to their bodies that they absolutely did not want her to do!

Have your BF do the telling. He is her son and he should be the one to deliver the news. Then simply do not have contact with her. You personally don't have any reason to answer her phone calls or open the door if she comes over. If your BF wants to see her, that's his choice. But you don't need to. If the boys ask to see her, send BF with them (if you feel that BF can stand up to her).

Also you might want to check out www.motherinlawstories.com - they have a good message board. Some of the posters are clearly not AP, but they all have had experience dealing with difficult MIL's.

I would be livid, too. This woman thinks that her preferences outweigh your parental decisions! How dare she. Your boys' "tantrum" showed, not how badly you are raising them, but how horribly she was treating them at the moment. Ugh!


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## lynsage (Jul 13, 2004)

That woman is toxic and you need to put her out of your life and your children's lives.

I'm so sorry she said those hurtful things to you. She had no right and you didn't deserve any of that.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I agree that when/if there are future visits should be entirely up to your sons. And any conversations about this or other issues should be framed from the perspective of the impact this is having on them. Make it not about you, but about their feelings, their betrayal, their anger.

Remember in all of this that your sons are watching and learning. While you have every right to be angry and feeling the need for revenge, remember that you are teaching your sons lessons as they watch you. If you don't want them to learn that it is OK to punish someone when they make you made, you need to be careful about the words you use. Which is really, really hard sometimes!


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I think you should have her arrested. That cannot be legal. Of course, children have very few legal rights but as their parent, you have rights. In my state's CPS handbook, it even says that haircutting for punishment is illegal. And it sounds like this was done to punish both you and them.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Now that you are here, though, try to look at this as a good thing: you go her to reveal her "true" self and now you can cut her out like she should be. If that is what she is thinking about you, your children and your family, you don't want that poison in your lives anyway.

I am so sorry. The haircut, itself, is not a "huge" issue, IMO. The utter disrespect and contempt show, meanwhile, is reason enough to never speak to her again.

Good luck


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Shann, in some of your posts you seem like you don't mind confrontation- but this is above & beyond the "zoo shirt" thread!!







Totally beyond your control & it really stinks for your MIL to have done something so mean. I am sorry. What your MIL did was 100% wrong. At first I thought that punishing her would be wrong- she is an adult. BUT she has completely & totally disregarded your feelings... For her to say, "no grandkids of mine are going to look like that !" is just totally wrong. A grandparent has NO say in how a kid looks. If my MIL did something like that I can absolutely guarantee that she would not see Joe again until HE wanted to see her. I am mad just thinking of it. Here is a







for you & the boys. I hope their hair grows back fast & thicker than ever!!


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Oh, you're the zoo shirt mom? Next time your MIL sees the boys, they should have their long hair AND be wearing those shirts! :LOL And maybe some nail polish too. And something tye-dyed!


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

I think, given the details of the situation you have presented, that I would not phrase things to her in terms of you and bf not allowing the boys to see her or vice versa.

Explain to her in no uncertain terms that The Boys Do NOT Want To See Her.

If it would help them to feel better, let them put their feelings on paper for her to read. Send her a letter!

She obviously has no respect for them or their persons and personal tastes, nor for you and their father and your parental decisions.

A person doesn't have to agree with someone's parental decisions to respect their right to make them.


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

Great idea, Greaeball ! I may just let their hair get super long, then let them go out and have a couple days of hard play outside and get REAL dirty and not give them baths for a few days, and then take a pic of them in the shirts(maybe with their middle fingers stuck up at the camera) and send the photo to her and say "From your dirty, longhaired, girly looking grandsons ! @#$% You !" (I am kidding of course, so don't flame me, people ! But the thought DOES occur ! LOL !)


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

She cut their hair because _she_ couldn't stand to see them look that way another minute?

Okay. So she won't see them. Then she won't see them look that way.

My thought is that you should hold off seeing (or maybe even speaking with!) her again until you and the boys have completely cooled down about this incident. You can tell her that. Then really wait until you are completely mellow. But still don't let her see them alone.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

This is absolutely horrible..omg...

what say you put neet on her head while she's sleeping? Then when she showers all her hair comes out and you tell her you couldn't stand looking at her old grey wiry granny hair anymore and sometimes senile old seniors need to be told what to do...

Then tell her when she's old and feeble she is welcome to come live with you...in fact you will make sure the boys take real good care of her









I am so sorry this has happened to your children..to be judged this way because of how they look/dress...what a terrible lesson to learn so early on in life...

I would leave the "punishment" up to the children...give them suggestions but since she took their power, then you have to give it back...they get to decide...

Good Luck and hugs for you and your children


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:

what say you put neet on her head while she's sleeping? Then when she showers all her hair comes out and you tell her you couldn't stand looking at her old grey wiry granny hair anymore and sometimes senile old seniors need to be told what to do...

Then tell her when she's old and feeble she is welcome to come live with you...in fact you will make sure the boys take real good care of her

I would leave the "punishment" up to the children...give them suggestions but since she took their power, then you have to give it back...they get to decide...
And this fits into the Gentle Discipline spectrum, where?

Just because this grandmother made the horrid decision to not respect the grandsons by inflicting physical change on them should not be grounds for an equal lack of respect in terms of physical harm onto her.

We teach our children best by modelling our best most loving behavior. We may fail occasionally, but we try, apologize, move on and keep trying.

How will the suggestion that they inflict the same harm on her teach them to become loving towards their own children some day?

I agree strongly that they need some means of feeling that they control their own bodies and as much of their lives as possible within what works in their family, but inflicting harm on grandmother will only infect them with her violence.

They can take back their personal sense of power by being allowed to be the ones who decide when she sees them again. There are ways that they can safely express that to her: e-mail, snail mail, phone, court order....

An eye for an eye leaves everybody blind. Not to mention that that kind of retribution is NOT what that passage means according to a Rabbi acquaitance at another website...


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## MamaToLance (Jun 26, 2004)

Wow, after hearing the subsequent phone call part of this saga, it sounds like she will never change and there is a possibility that she'd do something like this again if given the chance. I agree with many pps that I would never let her have unsupervised visits with your sons and would question whether any visits at all are warranted until the boys are old enough/big enough to defend themselves. I can't imagine what your sons must be thinking/feeling about what their grandma *did* to them. There is no way that either could comprehend someone doing something so obviously against their wishes and not taking their feelings and words into account while doing it. Grandma is not a person I would want my children around, especially since she has no respect for their personhood or individuality. IMO, after thinking this through, I can't say that I would ever let them see her again unless they actually asked to do so and even then only with supervision.

I think the most important part of all of this is that your boys understand that you completely disagree with what Grandma did and that you have stopped her from doing so if you could have.


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## Stevie (Jun 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shann*
Great idea, Greaeball ! I may just let their hair get super long, then let them go out and have a couple days of hard play outside and get REAL dirty and not give them baths for a few days, and then take a pic of them in the shirts(maybe with their middle fingers stuck up at the camera) and send the photo to her and say "From your dirty, longhaired, girly looking grandsons ! @#$% You !" (I am kidding of course, so don't flame me, people ! But the thought DOES occur ! LOL !)

Actually, I like this one LOL!


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

Great idea, Greaeball ! I may just let their hair get super long, then let them go out and have a couple days of hard play outside and get REAL dirty and not give them baths for a few days, and then take a pic of them in the shirts(maybe with their middle fingers stuck up at the camera) and send the photo to her and say "From your dirty, longhaired, girly looking grandsons ! @#$% You !" (I am kidding of course, so don't flame me, people ! But the thought DOES occur ! LOL !)
Shann--- I don't care if you send her a picture or not, but I want one!!!!


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Unreal! I would be so angry - I AM so angry, just for you and the boys!

I would mail her a letter letting her know that it was absolutely wrong of her, not her choice to make, disrespectful to the boys, etc. I strongly agree with the idea of not taking the boys to see her until their hair grows back to the original length. I would never allow unsupervised visits (or even visits of any kind in her house - isn't that where this occured?)

To the boys, I would let them know how sorry I was it happened, how wrong it was of gramma (I use the term loosely - I would start calling her by her first name when referencing them, which is petty but I don't think she really deserves the loving term at all). I would let them decide if they want to go to the hair salon to get it "redone". Not that that can make anything much better but at least they would get to decide how they want it to look from this point - just evened out (did she do a total hack job or actually have some skill in haircutting? Not that even if she was the world's best haircutter, it would make it the slightest bit ok but YKWIM) or an entirely different look than how she left them. I suppose she assumed you'd have to go in and get it done in something she'd consider "appropriate" so maybe in that case I wouldn't but just an idea to let the boys make a choice in the hair change in a little way at least.

Hey, I just thought of something! Do they have a pierced ear? If they want that, that would be a good dig!







Maybe send her a pic of them in pink shirts with earrings but the short hair....

Sorry it happened. A lot of times, I read posts and the mother is mad about something someone did or said and I sometimes think they are overreacting - not this time! An outrageous disrespect - I agree that if she'd overstep the boundaries about this, what else will she do? Take them to get baptized or vaccinated or something else that should be a parental decision? Never again - screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me. Don't give her the chance. I think you can be an adult and a good person/parent and still "punish" her - for lack of a better word - by not letting her see the boys for a year at least. Who needs grandparents like that??


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

Meiri, I get the feeling that you took Allgirls WAAAY too seriously ! I think she was being "tongue-in-cheek."


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shann*
Meiri, I get the feeling that you took Allgirls WAAAY too seriously ! I think she was being "tongue-in-cheek."

I agree. That was obviously a revenge fantasy, not a real suggestion.

Kind of like The Revelation of John in the Bible.

Your poor sons! Poor you!

My ds is 13, has shoulder length hair, dyed black with 3" blonde roots, huge blue eyes with long lashes, earrings in both ears. He also doesn't shower enough. He wears huge black pants with chains.

And he does get mistaken for a girl still.









Your ex-MIL would loooove him. Good thing is, he is as immoveable as a Mack truck at this point. He could squash her like a bug (revenge fantasy).


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:

Meiri, I get the feeling that you took Allgirls WAAAY too seriously ! I think she was being "tongue-in-cheek."
Could be, in which case I apologize. I have to deal with DS going off into fantasies like this a little too often. He'd not do whatever, but he's not what I'd call joking either.


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

Tired, I may just get the picture made and send you one anyway ! LOL ! I actually think my boys would enjoy doing all the stuff i described !

DaryLLL, I like what you said about your ds's look ! My sons would LOVE to look like that as well (I may let them !) Hell, _I like that look for them !_

Kirsten, they already have both ears double-pierced, which is part of what makes her so mad ! What else could I do to piss her off??


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

What else could I do to piss her off??
Would they wear nail polish? Flower stickers on their faces? Pink tye-dyed shirts?

You could tell MIL that without their long hair, you have to come up with other ways for them to look like hippie girls.


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

They HAVE been known to wear nail polish, Greaseball ! And they probably would do the rest too. I LIKE the idea of the hippie girl look ! But to complete the look I will have to keep them out of the showers for a few days, which I dont think they would mind anyway....i generally have to fight with them to get them in the shower as it is. So that part should be easy. I'll just stop bothering them about it and let them decide when they clean up next ! LOL !


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Yeah, the idea is to get her to see that they'll look even more like girls without their hair, and she'll wish she had just left it the way it was.


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## reilly's momma (Oct 3, 2002)

Ok, no one's suggested it yet, so I might as well

Dresses?

But only if they want.


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## hunnybumm (Nov 1, 2003)

I don't really feel like reading 3 pages worth of posts so I will first post my reaction then I can skim through a few of the posts.









I can't believe your MIL! I would be so Fing pissed! Your pour little boys.







I don't think I would "ground" your MIL but I would allow her limited visitation. Don't let her watch your boys anymore. She can only see them if you and SO are there with her. Maybe a few years of that and she will think twice, or your boys will be big enough to fend her off.

I truly am mad just reading this. Luckily my ILs live states away (DH is military) and they would never do something like that, DHs dad actually has pretty long hair.







BUT I could see my grandma doing something like that, not cutting the hair but definitly forcing the children to do something I don't agree with to get her power trip.

Again I feel for your family.


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## Krystal323 (May 14, 2004)

ok this isn't your mom, but your boyfriend's mom?? BF of how long?? How long have your boys known her?? FTR I've only let my kids stay alone w/dh's mom a few times, and I've known her 10 years and love her to death!

Someone said--""i'd just tell her that refusing to accept a child's non-consent on something being done to their bodies sets very dangerous precedents, and nobody that violates your kids' boundaries gets to be around them without you there ever again.""

I agree completely--what is the matter w/her that she's basically teaching your kids that their feelings/opinions concerning even their own bodies don't matter?!? And that hers DO?!? This, to me, is a huge red flag of bigger issues at hand than just the hair (although I am so very sorry about their beautiful long hair!)







I wouldn't want my kids around this woman alone ever again if I were you.

How do your boys feel about it btw?? Are they angry like you are, or are they taking it better than you lol ??








Their feelings should be the force behind whatever action you take IMHO. If they really don't want to see grandma ever again, honor that! But certainly don't let them go there alone anymore--they're still young and need your assistance dealing with this type of cruel bullying, esp coming from a family member they're suppose to be able to respect and trust.









So sorry







HTH


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## Krystal323 (May 14, 2004)

+++++++). Other issues came out, including the fact that her son and I have never been married and have had 2 kids "in sin" (GIVE ME A BREAK !!! It's not 1950 anymore, lady !).+++++

ok, sorry, disregard the first part of my previous post--I understand now!









This is really insane--total overstepping of boundaries and seriously abusive toward your poor boys! I shudder to think what other poisonous things she said/did to them while you weren't looking...









evil woman


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## Krystal323 (May 14, 2004)

maybe they'd cope better with the different hair if you got them some of those colored spikerz gels?? They could get several and make a rainbow mohawk! I bet grandma'd really love that


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

Hey, that's a great idea! Let them dye it beautiful colors! I'm not even thinking as a way to piss of MIL here, either ... just that it might be some consolation over the loss of their hair & a way to adjust to having it shorter, and enjoy it anyway ... iykwim ...


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## Book Addict Jen (Mar 1, 2004)

Extensions & a kilt.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

This is just horrible! I can't believe she behaved this way towards you and her grandchildren. For all the times I complain about my MIL she would NEVER go that far!

I would definetly not allow her to spend time alone with them for a very long time if at all. She clearly does not respect your feelings and their feelings. A grandmother should spoil her grandchildren - not torture them! Seems to me that she is more concerned about what others might think then she is about their feelings.

I'm so sorry you are having to deal with this. I think the girly look ideas are great! hehehehehehehe


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

We have talked stuff over (with the boys as well) and we have decided to go for the "dirty hippie girls" look for awhile to piss her off and to make a statement... fingernail polish, makeup, grubbiness, etc etc. (and if they like it, they can keep looking like that, as far as we are concerned ! We don't have hangups about gender appearances) Plus, we talked things over with the boys, and they made it VERY clear to us (without our prompting or "swaying" one way or the other) that they do NOT want to see her again ! They were so traumatized by her actions that they seem to be finished with her for GOOD ! So we plan to shock her eith a pic or something of her "dirty hippie girl" grandsons, and then remind her that that is the LAST she will see of them ! I personally have no problem with this, and I am very happy that the boys chose this way to go ! As far as we (and apparently they) are concerned, they have no grandma on that side. Good riddance !


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Yay! Maybe you could have some holiday cards printed up with their pictures on them, and they could say something like "The flower children and I wanted to wish you happy holidays!" And you could send them to everyone in the family, so your MIL would be embarrassed that other people saw them.


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## Quickening (May 20, 2003)

thats perfect greaseball!!!!! perfect!!!!!!!!!!


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## frand (May 8, 2004)

Am I the only one starting to get a feeling that these children are being used on both sides to express anger and displeasure at the other? I'm 43 and I will bet I'm at least 10 years older than most of you other posters but karmic-wise, revenge via deliberately making the boys' appearance more offensive doesn't seem like anyone's going to chill out or back off any time soon. I would say let her know trust was broken but don't bring your children into a revenge scenario. This is really an issue that goes very deep between the adults.


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

I like your perspective, *Frand*. I think there's a great opportunity here to respect the boys' desire not to see their grandma (protecting them, enforcing their boundaries), but also not to attack her (to discuss with them how fun it would be to do the postcard -- but hurtful, too, and how in our family we try not to hurt others, etc., so we'll choose the higher path).

But it did seem like the OP, *Shann* , was just venting and revenge-fantasizing here, safely, without a real plan to strike back at her MIL. Maybe I misread.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

As long as the children want to do whatever it is, I don't see a problem with it. They may have revenge fantasies of their own.


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## frand (May 8, 2004)

I thought the revenge stuff was a joke too but when I read the most recent posts it seemed like it was moving into real plans, not fantasies. Did I misread this?


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## BunnysMomma (Dec 27, 2003)

Deliberately antagonizing people to make a statement is an immature way to solve a problem. The high road is always the best course of action. I think that honestly and directly telling your bf's mother why you won't be bringing the kids around is a better way to resolve this issue and a better example for your children as to how to handle problems.

Wilma


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

*SIGH !* ONCE AGAIN, I have to come in here and defend and explain myself (this gets OLD !). NO ! We are NOT doing anything for revenge. Anything that is done will be ONLY with the boys' permission and within their wishes ! BE CALM, PEOPLE ! We are not "using" our boys ! (*SIGH* AGAIN !)


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shann*
*SIGH !* ONCE AGAIN, I have to come in here and defend and explain myself (this gets OLD !). NO ! We are NOT doing anything for revenge. Anything that is done will be ONLY with the boys' permission and within their wishes ! BE CALM, PEOPLE ! We are not "using" our boys ! (*SIGH* AGAIN !)









Hey, sorry you feel attacked. It is your MIL who is in the wrong - everyone agrees with that. There is some disagreement with the best way to respond (though following your boys desire to limit/stop contact is agreed upon).

I agree with the posters who beleive that the picture is prob not the best way to react (fun to joke about though







). I think their reasons are solid - you don't want to teach your boys that it is good to punish people who wrong us, and that is what the picture would be doing.

I'm a fan of your Shann








but I do agree that the high road is the best one to model for your sons in this case, especially when it comes to people you actaully know and who love you (misguided and wrongheaded the paths this love takes notwhithstanding).

Good luck


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## reilly's momma (Oct 3, 2002)

As someone who has read the whole thread, posted a serious response & a tongue in cheek one, I have to side with Shann. It seems that if any goofy measues are going to be taken, they will be done for two reasons, 1 Giving these boys a measure of control/choice back that thier grandmother took from them and 2 stress relief. And, from reading Shann's posts it seems quite obvious that she is allowing her sons to decide how they want to handle the situation, not using them in a revenge plot.


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## andi_3k (Oct 22, 2002)

I've read the entire thread too. From what I have read I have to agree with Shann it certainly sounds like the boys are "into' this.
I know that if something like thishad happened to me at their ages I would be into getting G-ma angry.
What worries me is that she could use the picture against you all....CPS might not be so cool with the idea. becareful, you don't want to hand her tools to hurt all of you more.
OTH, I'd love to see that picture.
Hugs to you, the boys and your BF.


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Since when does CPS get people for playing dressup, for goodness sakes? Can CPS get you for "raising your sons as girls," if that is the fear? Simple, let them not be playing dressup when CPS comes knocking.

Can't a person make a goofy card if a person wants to? Let's not be too paranoid.

This granma needs to know she is not in control of how her son wants to raise his dcs. And that some kids are allowed to wear their hair the length they want as a sign of autonomy and bodily integrity. What a concept. What is this, 1968?

This is probably the same person who would want you to let a baby CIO, to make it more independent. How ironic. Let a 3 mo be independent, but a 6 and 8 year old need to do their hair the way YOU want.


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## BunnysMomma (Dec 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shann*
Anything that is done will be ONLY with the boys' permission and within their wishes !

Just because you are doing it with your sons' permission and it's what they want to do doesn't mean it's the right course of action. Children often want to do inappropriate things, and it's up to parents to model pro-social behavior. I really have some genuine questions about the values you seem to be trying to instill in your sons, Shann, and I fear that they may backfire on you one day.

Wilma


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## reilly's momma (Oct 3, 2002)

Wow, that's a pretty harsh assessment. I just don't get what is so upsetting about playing dressup & taking a picture, and considering sending it to grandma. Yes, it is a bit spiteful, but it is also giving these boys a way to tell their grandma that they are going to dress the way they want, that they have the right to make their own choices about their bodies. Does anyone have a better suggestion as to how to send this message to the grandma that will actually get her to listen? From what Shann has posted, it's pretty clear that a letter or phone call will have zero effect. If anyone has better ideas, please post them, but I do think questioning a person's entire value system/parenting based upon one situation in which she is trying to use levity instead of anger is way over the top.

Besides the fact that by the time they end up posing for the picture & getting a copy made, they may or may not end up sending it to grandma, but in the meantime have a fun, stress relieving day of dress-up.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

ITA with everything mamawanabe said in her post. No attack meant to you OP Momma - just an opinion on what you should do, that's all.


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## mammaguess (Aug 22, 2003)

My thoughts on the OP and the subsequent follow-up posts are simple.

Your bf's mom does not respect you, your bf or the way you have chosen to raise your children.

Having read more than one of your post's I would venture to say that you are certian what you are doing is right for your family. And in that case I would minimize contact to polite "how's the weather and your goiter doing" (not that she has a goiter, its an example) When you and your bf choose to be at an event that she is at (ie family gatherings or whatever).

I would not bother trying to reason or discuss this with her. She feels every bit as strongly about her point of view as you do.

I would not have her watch your children. Do you vaccinate? What if she decides they need to be vaccinated? Don't get overtly involved in that example -->the point I am making is larger. You are the parent. If she doesn't like your parenting decisions that is her right. But it isn't her right to override them unless you are abusing them (not that you are. Everyone please read carefully here.... I am simply covering the only reason a grandparent should override a parent's decision)

I would let go of any and all revenge plans. Revenge usually backfires and sometimes even talking about it can eat a person up. I would take a moment of my own life if I were in this situation and mourn for the relationship I just lost.

Because this would break it for me. And not because of the hair. Because she doesn't respect you. That will spill out again eventually.

Good luck.


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## BunnysMomma (Dec 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *reilly's momma*
but I do think questioning a person's entire value system/parenting based upon one situation in which she is trying to use levity instead of anger is way over the top.

I'm assuming you meant this for me. I did not mean to come across as harsh, and I apologize if I did. But based on not just this thread but previous ones as well, I do feel that the OP encourages her children to act in antagonistic, aggressive, and insensitive ways, and I don't agree with that. I do believe parents have a responsibility to model socially desirable behavior, and I don't think it's healthy for kids to be enouraged to act out their feelings in spiteful, mean-spirited, and self-centered ways (even if, as some people have posited, it's "all in good fun").

Wilma


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

Children often want to do inappropriate things, and it's up to parents to model pro-social behavior.
If any of our MILs had forcibly cut our hair, how would we react?


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## BunnysMomma (Dec 27, 2003)

I'm not saying the woman who cut the hair was in the right. I'm merely saying that taking the high road in response to being insulted, slighted, or disrespected is always the better way. The OP has decided that the boys won't be seeing her bf's mother anymore. That and a simple explanation to the woman are all that are required, in my opinion. If the OP is never going to be able to reach a common ground with the woman, what is the point in perpetuating the issue?

Wilma


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

So if it had happened to you, what would the high road look like?

I wouldn't be happy to just walk away if it had been done to me.


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## BunnysMomma (Dec 27, 2003)

I already explained what the high road would look like. It would be a simple explanation as to why the children wouldn't be coming around anymore. This doesn't mean that I wouldn't be seething inside, but I hope that I would have the grace to put a bad situation to rest instead of continuing to stir the pot. The damage (to the hair and the relationship) is already done, and meeting disrespect with more disrespect is damaging to everyone, plain and simple. Our relationships with others should never be based on who "wins," because relationships based on that type of competition have little, if any, room for understanding and compassion. (And I don't mean capitulation, I mean an understanding of the situation as it is and compassion for the other person regardless of their perceived faults).

Wilma


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

But what if it had been done to you and not your children? If my MIL or anyone else held me down and cut off my hair while I screamed, just telling her "I won't be coming by anymore" would not do it for me.


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

...


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## BunnysMomma (Dec 27, 2003)

Greaseball, I guess it depends on what you're trying to get out of life. I'm trying to get peace, harmony, and joy, so letting a bad situation rest works for me. I may stew in my anger for a bit, but it will be a far smaller amount of time than if I deliberately attempt to make the situation worse.

Wilma


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
But what if it had been done to you and not your children? If my MIL or anyone else held me down and cut off my hair while I screamed, just telling her "I won't be coming by anymore" would not do it for me.

I think for something like that you could file assault charges.

I'm afraid I have to agree with bunnysmomma that the scenario of doing something for revenge or spite or punishment or "to teach a lesson" or whatever just doesn't strike me as a good way to model how adults handle conflict. Even though I agree that this MIL sounds toxic and like she should be avoided.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BunnysMomma*
I'm assuming you meant this for me. I did not mean to come across as harsh, and I apologize if I did. But based on not just this thread but previous ones as well, I do feel that the OP encourages her children to act in antagonistic, aggressive, and insensitive ways, and I don't agree with that. I do believe parents have a responsibility to model socially desirable behavior, and I don't think it's healthy for kids to be enouraged to act out their feelings in spiteful, mean-spirited, and self-centered ways (even if, as some people have posited, it's "all in good fun").

Wilma










I have a very differnt interpretation of the earlier threads you mention. So just for the record, I do NOT feel that the OP encourages her children to act in antagonistic, aggressive, and insensitive ways.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Shann---

How are your DS's doing?







to them both!

Kay


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Hey I know - how about long flowing wigs?


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

Thanks for asking, Tired ! The boys still occasionally talk about what was done to them, and they desperately want their hair back. As I have said before, they LOVED their long hair, and the 6 y/o didn't even really remember a haircut before, so this was especially something that bothered and confused him. They are ADAMANT that they don't want to see grandma again...EVER ... and refer to her as "that old woman " (THEIR choice to call her that, not ours, by the way. They also both occasionally put some extra, more colorful, words in there as well, none of which are our ideas to get them to say, but also none of which we object to being used). I find it interesting in here when so many people complain about the "dirty hippie girls" plan that they seem to believe that somehow we are forcing this on the boys and "using" them, when that could NOT be farther from the truth ! The boys are wanting to do this themselves. Granted, we will not stop them or object to it, but we are letting THEM direct the way it goes and the degree, so I really wish people would stop with the "that is so wrong to make your kids feel that way " routine ! Besides, as one poster said, what is wrong with allowing the boys to dress up that way for awhile anyway? We don't have a problem with them being in dresses, skirts, makeup, or fingernail polish and never have. They have done this on occasion at home for fun from time to time in the past, so it's not at all like this is any major departure anyway.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I know it seems the OP's decision is made and that's fine - it is totally yours to make of course! I just wanted to comment that I don't think walking away and saying that she is not allowed to see her grandchildren anymore comes even close to "doing nothing". I would imagine it will be quite painful for her not to see them anymore. Even though she is an old hateful hag


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
But what if it had been done to you and not your children? If my MIL or anyone else held me down and cut off my hair while I screamed, just telling her "I won't be coming by anymore" would not do it for me.


If she'd done it to you, you could have filed battery charges - same with the children. That's an option that Shann could have explored if she wanted to show her boys that there were legal consequences to their grandmother's actions.

Otherwise, limiting contact (or cutting off completely) with a simple explanation seems the way to go. Why antagonize her? Taking pictures of her children dressed up like girls and sending them to the grandmother is like the equivalent of running around the playground, sticking out your tongue, yelling, "Nanny nanny boo boo!" Probably pretty satisfying on one level, but not the best example of how to address situations.

What she did was a huge violation of their trust and their bodily integrity and there should be consequences. Natural consequences (like we all advocate on this board) would be that her grandchildren don't want to see her anymore, not that her grandchildren and their parents take every opportunity to rub her nose in it.

Doing dress up is a great idea for the kids if they want to do it - probably very cathartic to let them know that it's okay to go around "looking like a girl" in the eyes of the world if they want to. But why this need for revenge? I just don't get why that's a behavior that anyone wants to encourage in their children.


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## frand (May 8, 2004)

Shann you are making broad dismissive generalizations against everyone who disagreed with you. I have NO problem with long hair or dresses or nail polish on boys. I do have a problem with two wrongs don't make a right and the bad karma of taking pleasure in revenge. The point of revenge is to hurt and this somehow makes you feel better, correct?

Plus I was giving a lot of thought to these boards -- no one here, not your fans nor detractors, has anything personally at stake in your family. Only you,your boyfriend and your children do. I think it's very dangerous to let strangers egg you on and use their support to do something mean within your family. I'm old compared to many of you and I have seen complete unexpected changes occur in people in their lives. Life is about possibilities and surprises. Your boyfriend's mother is forever going to be his mother, and your sons' grandmother, and while she is maddening now, she could still potentially mean something to even you someday. She could have huge regrets about what she did one day. I think the danger of these boards is when you let strangers cheer you on into behavior that actually will be hurtful toward someone.

When I talked about 'using' I meant it both ways. Your boyfriend's mother used them to get at you. And you were definitely enjoying the thought of using them to get back at her. Just because your sons are happy to do it means they are caught up in the anger and hurt of moment too, it does not mean they have chosen the right path.

Far better to go on living your lives the way that is right for you but NOT giving so much time and energy toward hurting anyone.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Shann, I'm sorry this happened to you and your boys.









You asked for opinions about how to handle this. Some have given you suggestions that obviously appeal to you and the boys. Others' suggestions won't appeal to you, but I think they are legitimate contributions to the thread.

I have to agree with frand and bunnysmama that, for me personally at least, revenge etc is just not the way I choose to deal with such things. I'm not sure much will be gained and wonder at the lessons being taught here. I think this alternate POV deserves a say in this thread, so I'm adding my vote.









But this is just my personal opinion, and whatever course of action you choose I hope it helps you and the boys get past the trauma of what has transpired.


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## mammaguess (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frand*
Shann you are making broad dismissive generalizations against everyone who disagreed with you. I have NO problem with long hair or dresses or nail polish on boys. I do have a problem with two wrongs don't make a right and the bad karma of taking pleasure in revenge. The point of revenge is to hurt and this somehow makes you feel better, correct?

Plus I was giving a lot of thought to these boards -- no one here, not your fans nor detractors, has anything personally at stake in your family. Only you,your boyfriend and your children do. I think it's very dangerous to let strangers egg you on and use their support to do something mean within your family. I'm old compared to many of you and I have seen complete unexpected changes occur in people in their lives. Life is about possibilities and surprises. Your boyfriend's mother is forever going to be his mother, and your sons' grandmother, and while she is maddening now, she could still potentially mean something to even you someday. She could have huge regrets about what she did one day. I think the danger of these boards is when you let strangers cheer you on into behavior that actually will be hurtful toward someone.

When I talked about 'using' I meant it both ways. Your boyfriend's mother used them to get at you. And you were definitely enjoying the thought of using them to get back at her. Just because your sons are happy to do it means they are caught up in the anger and hurt of moment too, it does not mean they have chosen the right path.

Far better to go on living your lives the way that is right for you but NOT giving so much time and energy toward hurting anyone.









What frand said.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *merpk*
What gets me most from the OP is the boys cried for her to stop, and she just kept on cutting.










This is the part that gets me too. How are yor boys with grandma? Are they upset and/or nervous around her? I'm sure it was a huge blow to their trusting her.

Now that I've read the thread, I thought it was only the ONE page







, I have to agree with frand, piglet, and the others. I think the fantasy revenge ideas are kinda fun but not the way to handle the situation. But it is your fmaily and you decision. I hope whatever you choose gives you the satisfaction and justice you are seeking.

I don't know what I would have done in the situation. I probably would have left without speaking, cried, then raised hell, and limited contact. I'm only an antagonist in my mind.

Question for you.... If you do do what you have talked about...the picture and such... what do you think her next move will be? Do you think she is just going to drop it?

BTW...are you doing the pic thing? I didnt quite get that part... or what are you doing?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Maybe you could just post the pic here! :LOL


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I haven't read all the posts here, just the first from the OP and this last page. I get the idea that there have been some suggestions about sending a photo of the boys dressed up as girls to the grandmother to sort of rub it in her face. Whether or not you think this will make you or your boys feel better, it could be dangerous. If you send this picture and cut off contact with grandma, which is what I would do with an explanation, she has documentation of your "questionable" parenting. She could try to use those pictures to present you as an unfit parent and try to take those kids from you. Just something to think about.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *its_our_family*
I'm only an antagonist in my mind.


:LOL

me too!


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## 5796 (Oct 19, 2002)

shann,

My own guess is that everyone will cool their jets during the next couple months and then it will be time for the holidays.
question: will cutting off your mil knock out aunts/uncles and cousins?
Or is that a non issue?

One of my best friends keeps her own parents in the loop way more than she ever wanted because she wants ds to have relationships with his aunts and cousins and it would get too frayed if she dumped her parents including her sometimes awful father.


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

MIL called our house last night and I answered. She insisted on talking to the boys and I decided to let them handle the situation as they saw fit. My youngest (age 6) talked to her first, and I could see him getting madder and madder as the conversation went on. Suddenly he just shouted into the phone "F*ck you , b*tch !" and handed the phone to his brother. Then the 8 y/o talked to her and eventually said the same thing and alot more to her, and hung up on her ! Before any of you even suggest it, NO they weren't coached to say that. But NO they also weren't scolded or told it was wrong either. To be honest, I was very glad they did it, but I didn't say anything one way or the other except to say to them that I was glad they decided to handle it in their own way. Now, if they want to drop the whole thing, they can, but from what they both said later, I think they are even more determined now to do the "dirty hippy girl" picture thing. But again, I will let them decide !


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Shann,
Your update post really concerns me, I was sympathetic to the whole situation before but I don't understand how you can think it's OK for your children to be using that kind of language and to be seriously considering a revenge plan. I must admit I thought it was all in jest at first and then it was funny - but to seriously consider doing this just isn't right.

Letting them make their own decisions is all well and good but as parents we should also be trying to teach them right from wrong. Why not consider teaching them to let it go and get on with their lives not hold a grudge, seek revenge and use foul language?


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## aguacates (Sep 17, 2003)

I have been following this thread, and while I feel bad for your boys, I think this might be an opportunity to focus on more effective communication. I would agree that your boys have every right to be furious. They were violated. Period. I also think that they have every right to vent their anger, but I'm not sure that telling Mil to [email protected]#$ Off is effective communication. Yes, it communicates how angry they are, but I feel like other verbal tools might serve them better in life. Such as saying, "You violated me, I am very angry, I don't trust you anymore, and I don't want to see you." This would lay it out for MIL loud and clear. I certainly wouldn't punish your kids for expressing themselves to her, but I might use it as an opportunity to discuss other ways to express anger and hurt feelings, which you might have already done.

I just think of this in relation to when I'm angry at dp, Sometimes I throw a small tantrum and yell at him, then I usually take a moment to regroup. I walk around the farm, breathe deeply, then come back and actually try to discuss things, and explain what I actually mean. Freaking out can let off steam, but it tends not to be effective in communicating what I am exactly upset about. JMO


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)




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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *missbliss*
Such as saying, "You violated me, I am very angry, I don't trust you anymore, and I don't want to see you." This would lay it out for MIL loud and clear. I certainly wouldn't punish your kids for expressing themselves to her, but I might use it as an opportunity to discuss other ways to express anger and hurt feelings, which you might have already done.

He's _six_. Do you really think it's reasonable to expect this kind of response from him?


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## aguacates (Sep 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
He's _six_. Do you really think it's reasonable to expect this kind of response from him?

No, Sorry. Not at all. I realized after I posted that I was unclear. I meant that it was something to model, or discuss with the kids. I assume that there would be a six year old or an eight year old version, whether it was, "That's not fair, or I'm really mad" or whatever. I think I was just trying to suggest bringing up feelings when angry, rather than just venting through swearing, which I really do believe does have a place, it just isn't descriptive enough. Hope this clarifies what I was thinking.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
He's _six_. Do you really think it's reasonable to expect this kind of response from him?

With the exception of the "You violated me" part, missbliss' suggestion is something that my almost 4-year-old has had a handle on for quite some time now. And the violation part he gets, he just wouldn't use those words to express it.

I see Shann allowing her kids to feel their true emotions, and that's great. What I don't see is much of any guidance on how to express and process their anger in a way that won't alienate and might actually get through to other people, might be productive. In other words, they're not getting the tools they need to grow into adults who are successful communicators and more than a series of emotional explosions.

My apologies, Shann, if that doens't truly represent the situation with your children. It's just what I see from everything you've posted here.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Hi everyone! I'm Greaseball.


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## dandamomma (May 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shann*
Suddenly he just shouted into the phone "F*ck you , b*tch !" and handed the phone to his brother. Then the 8 y/o talked to her and eventually said the same thing and alot more to her, and hung up on her !

Shann, your sons' behavior is hateful, that's all there is to it. It doesn't matter whether they have just cause to be angry, there's absolutely no excuse for being hateful. Respect is a two-way street, and if you expect that you and your boys be treated respectfully by others, you have to display it yourselves. You act as though other people only have worth insofar as they are useful to you, and if they aren't, that it's perfectly acceptable to treat them as shabbily as possible. I think your sons will ultimately suffer for your poor example either by being shunned by prospective playmates and their families (and believe me, the VAST majority of families, no matter how open and liberal, would not tolerate a child behaving like this) or by alienating those around them with their offensive outburts. How do you expect your children to learn how to get along with others if you don't teach them? It's not about being allowed to express their emotions. Everryone agrees that children should always be allowed to express their feelings. But you seem to either not understand or not care that there are better ways to express oneself than by being vulgar and hateful.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

I do agree that allowing you boys to express themselves freely and comfortably is good, but that you may want to give them more guidence in constructive confrontations. I have no prob with my kids swearing, but I wouldn't want them to call anyone a fucking bitch, no matter what that person did to them. It just isn't constructive and it, unfortunately, doesn't offer the closure you'd expect such stong words to give (hence the boys want more and are planning the picture).

Anyway, maybe you can talk to them about what we can do when someone wrongs us but is no longer a threat to us (as I assume grandma isn't since none of you will be seeing her any time soon). They are going to be wronged many times in the future and will want more constructive redresses to these wrongs than name calling.

Good luck.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dandamomma*
I think your sons will ultimately suffer for your poor example either by being shunned by prospective playmates and their families (and believe me, the VAST majority of families, no matter how open and liberal, would not tolerate a child behaving like this) or by alienating those around them with their offensive outburts. How do you expect your children to learn how to get along with others if you don't teach them? .


No, There are no real world repucussions to calling people who wrong you a "b." By the time they are teenagers most of thier friends will talk that way. In fact, studies show that most elemtary kids swear when adults are not around (heard from a sociologist on Freshair).

I can imagine Shann's kids being pretty popular when they are older (confident gutsy kids are always a hit) and in high school most of thier friends' parents will be way more worried about thier kids' friends doing drugs than about thier kids' friends namecalling the driver who cuts them off.

But though there are no real world repucussions to calling people who wrong you a "b," it doesn't make it right. And that is what we are talking about here. What is right and wrong for our kids, not what is more useful and/or harmful.


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## dandamomma (May 3, 2004)

First, I'm not talking about teenagers (I wouldn't have called them "playmates" if they were teens) and second, there absolutely are consequences to telling people to f*ck off, b*tch. Try telling your boss that, or your neighbor. Do you think you will be warmly welcomed after that? If you made a friend angry and she told you to "f*ck off, b*tch," would you be in a hurry to resume your friendship with her? How about telling the police officer to f*ck off? Think he or she will just laugh and think you're confident and gutsy? I also have to disagree with you that teenagers in general think swearing and being foul-mouthed and crude are cool. Maybe some teenagers do, but many, many do not. I would never, ever let my children hang out with other children (teenagers, doesn't matter what age) if I knew that they talked that way and that, worse yet, their parents condoned it. And I doubt that I'm alone in that sentiment, and I am not someone who is generally considered conservative and uptight. In fact, it's not even so much the words themselves (although I do find them offensive) as it is the intention to hurt other people that accompanies their use.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dandamomma*
First, I'm not talking about teenagers (I wouldn't have called them "playmates" if they were teens) and second, there absolutely are consequences to telling people to f*ck off, b*tch. Try telling your boss that, or your neighbor. Do you think you will be warmly welcomed after that? If you made a friend angry and she told you to "f*ck off, b*tch," would you be in a hurry to resume your friendship with her? How about telling the police officer to f*ck off? Think he or she will just laugh and think you're confident and gutsy? I also have to disagree with you that teenagers in general think swearing and being foul-mouthed and crude are cool. Maybe some teenagers do, but many, many do not. I would never, ever let my children hang out with other children (teenagers, doesn't matter what age) if I knew that they talked that way and that, worse yet, their parents condoned it. And I doubt that I'm alone in that sentiment, and I am not someone who is generally considered conservative and uptight. In fact, it's not even so much the words themselves (although I do find them offensive) as it is the intention to hurt other people that accompanies their use.

My point was that we shouldn't be teaching our kids to do or not do something becuase of its positive or negative reprecussions (don't namecall becuase then people won't like you - which isn't true really except for the obvious don't namecall people who have power over you or people you want to stay in close relatiosnhips with), but becuase there is an ideal that they (and we) should be striving for. That is all I was saying - that we don't want to teach our kids to calculate thier actions based on solely, or even mostly, on whether these actions will get them what they want - friends and aproval in thsi case.

I actually agree with you about being respectful to other people part (even people who don't agree with you or who have hurt you). Just the other motivation I took issue with.

BTW, all the cool, popular kids I went to high school with swore like crazy. Maybe it is place and time specific - small moneyed town in the deep South in the 80s.


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## dandamomma (May 3, 2004)

I don't think I ever said that these children shouldn't call others horrible names just because of how other people might react. I just mentioned that, if they do this, the result will probably be that they are not welcomed by most people. And I think that is a shame, because I think these children will end up suffering for their mother's example. We are in agreement that people shouldn't call others horrible names simply because it's disrespectful and mean.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

I really don't think they will suffer. I was very unliked in elemenary school and had no freinds but was still really happy becuse my family was where I got most of my social life and they loved and accepted me. Peers don't become too important until Jr. high - (and jr. high is the center of the name call and giggle universe).

Now I'm questioning my last statement though. Is it never ok to be disrespetful to someone when they have hurt you but are no longe r athreat to you? I mean we wouldn't expect someone who was molested to be respectful if the molester called them? Just thinking outlod here . . .


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

Is it never ok to be disrespetful to someone when they have hurt you but are no longe r athreat to you? I mean we wouldn't expect someone who was molested to be respectful if the molester called them? Just thinking outlod here . . .
That is true. And people can say "Being molested cannot be compared to having your hair cut" all they want, but maybe this haircutting incident is the worst thing that has ever happened to these boys.

And maybe the MIL is still a threat. We don't know what she said to make the boys react that way. If my child started swearing at an adult I would be more concerned about what the adult had done.

BTW, anyone who is going to "not allow" their children to be friends with children who swear will either find out that they cannot control what their teenage children do, or that their children will have very few friends.


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## iris0110 (Aug 26, 2003)

I have been following this thread since the begining. I haven't posted before, because I could tell that things were getting heated, but I couldn't just stand by and say nothing. First of all saying that these children will never have friends and will be poor citizens is just down right rude. You don't know these people or what they are going through and your name calling doesn't really have a place here. Second, although I would like to model good communication and respect to my children there are some people in the world who just don't respond to that. I grew up sharing a home with my grandmother. This woman hated me from the day I was born. She never missed a time to tell me how awful I was and how my brother was better than me. I absolutely hated her, and I have had a very hard time coming to terms with how she treated me. I tried being respectful and explaining to her how I felt. She never listened. I had friends who were boys so naturally I must be sleeping with all of them. I died my hair black which made me a wh*re (I still don't understand that connection). I wasn't a Christian so I was stupid and evil. She had so many judgements and she just couldn't handle the fact that it was my life and I was going to live it my way. My parents never did much to stand up for me either. They always told me to stay away from her and not make her mad. She always came looking for me, and she listened in on my phone conversations. I wouldn't have made nearly as much trouble as a teen if she would have just left me alone. Eventually our fights always ended up as shouting and cursing matches. And for some one who prided herself on being an upstanding lady she sure could curse. She even gave one of my friends the finger one day. What I am trying to say in this anicdote is just that there are some people you just can't reason with. You can be respectful and kind and still never get through to them. Did cursing at my grandmother help things, Well no, but it didn't make them any worse either. And it did make me feel better. You shouldn't judge a person until you have been exactly where they are. I appluad Shann for not punishing her kids. Maybe she should have discussed with them better ways to express themselves, but if I were in her position I think I would have done something similar. There are people in the world who are just so close minded and antagonistic that there really isn't anything better to say to them.


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:

That woman asked to talk to them and must have said something to make them really mad and they responded in the only way they knew how.
I would hope that I would have managed to have taught our children more civil, yet equally clear, ways of communicating their feelings than that were we to ever be in a similar situation.

But that's just us, and every family's different....


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## dandamomma (May 3, 2004)

I think that people should do the right thing because it's the right thing to do, not because they hope to "get something" from it. Yes, being respectful to the MIL probably won't change anything, but you still do it because it's the right thing to do. Speaking as one who was molested and who continued to face my abuser frequently for many years, I can say that being respectful to people is the better way to heal than is dragging around your anger and reigniting it any chance you get.

Also, I am not so naive as to think that my kids' friends won't swear. What I said is that I won't allow my children to hang out with people who "talk that way" (like Shann's kids do), which is to say violently verbally assaulting those who have displeased them (ESPECIALLY when their parents condone it). Like I also said, it's not the swearing per se, it's the hatred directed toward people that's the problem. That is not a value I want to inculcate in my children.

I also never said these children would be friendless. I said that they would likely be shunned by prospective playmates (probably not EVERY prospective playmate).

Shann posted this thread, presumably, because she wanted people to know about what happened and hear what people had to say. I read this entire thread today and I said what I had to say. I stand by my opinion that Shann's kids' behavior is hateful and that it's a poor value to inculcate, and I also believe that if her kids continue to behave this way, they will suffer for it at some point in the future. Take my opinion or leave it.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

I'll take it, dandamomma. I totally agree.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I'll take it too - ITA.

Also I will add that my 14 year old absolutely HATES it when people swear - I know it's just one kid but he really does.

I think the main thing that gets me is that we are not talking about teenagers or adults - if the kids were say 14 and 16 I don't think many people would be getting AS upset over the language. Might not be right and would still be disturbing but could be more well understood as their friends may talk that way and we could say that it just sort of slipped out. In this case we are talking about a SIX year old and an EIGHT year old. I would be mortified if my kids used that kind of language at that age. JMO.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
That is true. And people can say "Being molested cannot be compared to having your hair cut" all they want, but maybe this haircutting incident is the worst thing that has ever happened to these boys.

And maybe the MIL is still a threat. We don't know what she said to make the boys react that way. If my child started swearing at an adult I would be more concerned about what the adult had done.

I totally agree with this. If I ever heard my son say "f*** off, b**ch" on the phone, I'd be much more inclined to wonder what the person on the other end said than to think of ways to teach my children to communicate more "appropriately." I'm on his side, and that's all there is to it.

What makes this argument so interesting to me is something in Gavin de Becker's book Protecting the Gift; he mentions that when you get into certain situations with other people, your instinct is often to say something particularly foul but most people suppress that instinct in favor of "civil" behavior. He talks about a woman standing in line at a movie theater with her daughter and a man talking to them. She was thinking something along the lines of "who the h*ll do you think you are, why the f*ck are you talking to me?" but what she actually said was "mmm." De Becker says that he tells adults all the time to _use their words_, that if you say what's actually on your mind you're much less likely to become a target because a predator can sense it if you're not willing to stand up for yourself, even verbally.

I'm really not surprised to see so many people arguing that the use of "foul" language is unacceptable, because that's very deeply engrained in our society. Still, I'd ask you to take a better look at it. Sometimes, such language is very appropriate. I would argue that perhaps there were no "better ways" for Shann's son to express himself. Perhaps "f*ck off, b*tch" was the most appropriate and reasonable thing for him to say. I would never in my wildest dreams consider chastising my son for using such language, especially if I didn't know exactly what was said to him to ellicit that resonse. I'd certainly ask him about the conversation, but only because it would be very obvious to me that he was very upset.

Using "foul" language does not mean that you are inarticulate or incapable of "appropriate" speech. It doesn't mean that you're uneducated or that your lower class or even that your friends are. There are professors of English who swear like sailors when they're around their friends; professionals of all sorts, really.


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## splendid (Jul 18, 2004)

So I have read the entire thread (which I would suggest people do if they have not since it is much more than the original post).

Shann, did the boys discuss what the woman said to them on the phone? I'm thinking based on what she has said and done in the past it just wan't "Grandma misses you and baked you some brownies".

I agree with everything eilonwy said in her last post. I believe "foul" language can sometimes be the only way we can express ourselves when we are in the moment.

I support what you are doing in your family, you know your family the best and believe you are doing what is best for them. And somehow I think that anything were to get out of hand you or bf would step in. Maybe I live in my own bubble, but I don't see what is so wrong with what you are doing. And I have done the same thing in the past with my MIL (long story) but we did cut off contact for 1.5 years. She was poison and we treated her as such.

Kudos to you.
Marie


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
I totally agree with this. If I ever heard my son say "f*** off, b**ch" on the phone, I'd be much more inclined to wonder what the person on the other end said than to think of ways to teach my children to communicate more "appropriately." I'm on his side, and that's all there is to it.

Why is it an either-or situation? I'm always on my son's side, as well, and I know it's WAY out of character for my son to respond that way so I'd definitely wonder what's up. I don't think anyone here is saying that the kids weren't justified in being angry, but it seems like this sort of reaction is par for the course for them and totally okay with their mother as an end reaction to a situation. Obviously, as another person pointed out, it isn't meeting the kids' needs in full because they still want to exact revenge on their grandmother - for real, not just in fantasy (which I also would have no problem whatsoever encouraging for my son, so long as he know that we don't treat people that way... that it's up to us to be the "bigger" people; otherwise we're just stooping to their level). And I don't see any follow-through whatosever - no attempt to teach the children a healthier way of processing their anger so it eventually becomes a distant memory, rather than something they play out over and over again. And so they learn effective tools to work through their anger and address people who have wronged them in a way that won't alienate them from everyone around.

Quote:

I'm really not surprised to see so many people arguing that the use of "foul" language is unacceptable, because that's very deeply engrained in our society. Still, I'd ask you to take a better look at it. Sometimes, such language is very appropriate. I would argue that perhaps there were no "better ways" for Shann's son to express himself. Perhaps "f*ck off, b*tch" was the most appropriate and reasonable thing for him to say.
Hm. I can totally see that the boys likely still feel threatened by the grandmother. Like I said - I don't necessarily have a huge problem with the boys' reaction in this situation (though I do get the sense with these boys, particularly, that it might be less them feeling threatened than it is that this is how they know to respond). What gets me about the situation is Shann's reaction to them.









It's also not about the language, itself, it's about the use of the language - using expletives in casual conversation with peers is a lot different than hurling them at people like weapons. My son knows that he can use whichever words he feels the need to, but he also knows that a) they make some people uncomfortable, so he should be choosy about when he uses them about respect for those around him and b) we don't use them to hurt or belittle people. He also knows what to do if someone makes him uncomfortable and how to stand up for himself if someone tries to take advantage of him (work in progress, but it's something I'm laying the groundwork on). I don't think the two messages are mutually exclusive. There's a lot of middle ground between cursing a blue streak *at* someone and standing by, passive, as they make you uncomfortable.


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## dandamomma (May 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
What makes this argument so interesting to me is something in Gavin de Becker's book Protecting the Gift; he mentions that when you get into certain situations with other people, your instinct is often to say something particularly foul but most people suppress that instinct in favor of "civil" behavior. He talks about a woman standing in line at a movie theater with her daughter and a man talking to them. She was thinking something along the lines of "who the h*ll do you think you are, why the f*ck are you talking to me?" but what she actually said was "mmm." De Becker says that he tells adults all the time to _use their words_, that if you say what's actually on your mind you're much less likely to become a target because a predator can sense it if you're not willing to stand up for yourself, even verbally.


You can be confident and assertive of your rights without screaming profanities at people.


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## aguacates (Sep 17, 2003)

You know, I totally agree with the other posters who are curious what the grandmother said to elicit such a response. And I also agree that there are situations where screaming profanities is absolutely appropriate. And it sounds like this may have been one of those situations. I don't know. But I think what I was suggesting in my earlier post, and it sounds like other posters are concerned about, is that the boys have other tools to deal with anger and how to communicate effectively. And I'm also sure that they do.

I think on some level, I was thinking that the grandmother should know exactly why what she did was so wrong. That it isn't just the matter of changing the boys' hair, but a complete violation of their persons. I think it is a kind of molestation. But I also guess it is not the boys' responsibility to spell it out for her.


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## dandamomma (May 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *missbliss*
And I also agree that there are situations where screaming profanities is absolutely appropriate.

I don't understand this at all. If we raise our kids with the understanding that hitting them is always wrong because it's violent and abusive, to me it is a contradiction to then say "But we can be verbally violent and abusive sometimes, and that's ok." To me that's like someone saying, "I had to hit him, it was the only way to get him to mind me."







:


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dandamomma*
I don't understand this at all. If we raise our kids with the understanding that hitting them is always wrong because it's violent and abusive, to me it is a contradiction to then say "But we can be verbally violent and abusive sometimes, and that's ok." To me that's like someone saying, "I had to hit him, it was the only way to get him to mind me."







:

Okay, you're bringing discipline into it, and to my mind that's an entirely different topic. For the record, I believe it is never appropriate for a mother to verbally abuse her child, or to physically abuse them.

We're talking instead about self expression and about a different balance of power. When a parent says something like "f*ck you" to a young child, they are wielding their size and age as a weapon against their child. When a child says it to an adult, they are trying to achieve a balanced relationship.

Whether you want to phrase it that way or not, this little boy was physically violated by his grandmother. He didn't hit her, he didn't seek her out and he didn't make the phone call; she called to speak to him. Not only that, but she didn't call him to apologize-- she called to try to make her case with him. I'm sorry, but his response was most likely completely appropriate. If someone owes you an apology (at the very least-- I'm not sure what kind of apology would be enough for that) and instead of offerring one continues to act the way they did in the first place, you would be well within your rights to tell them to f*ck off.


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## dandamomma (May 3, 2004)

I don't think I was bringing discipline into it. I was trying to point out the inconsistency in trying to teach our children that hitting is violent and abusive and wrong but then turning around and saying that verbal abuse is ok sometimes. I wasn't framing it in the context of mother wielding power over child. I was framing it in the conext of what we teach our children, namely, violence is always wrong or violence is only wrong sometimes. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my previous post.

Also, we don't know what the MIL was saying to the child. Perhaps she was trying to apologize and the little boy was still so angry he told her f*ck off, b*tch, anyway. Perhaps she was provoking him further. But we don't know, based on the information provided in this thread.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dandamomma*
I don't understand this at all. If we raise our kids with the understanding that *hitting them* is always wrong because it's violent and abusive

This is a discipline issue.

Quote:

to me it is a contradiction to then say "But we can be verbally violent and abusive sometimes, and that's ok."
We're not talking about verbal abuse, we are talking about verbal _expression_. I'll admit that the expression was a bit violent, but again I think that it was very appropriate to the situation. Sometimes violence is necessary; I don't feel that violence against children is ever appropriate, especially against your own, but that's entirely different from violence in general. It is occasionally necessary to be (verbally) violent in order to assert yourself, and this is definately one of those cases. This woman physically violated him, she held him down and altered his appearance against his will; if anything was coming out of her mouth aside from "I'm very sorry that I hurt you and I promise I'll never do anything like that again," (though I can't say I'd expect him to buy it) a verbally violent response is perfectly reasonable and acceptable to my mind.


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## dandamomma (May 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
It is occasionally necessary to be (verbally) violent in order to assert yourself, and this is definately one of those cases. This woman physically violated him, she held him down and altered his appearance against his will; if anything was coming out of her mouth aside from "I'm very sorry that I hurt you and I promise I'll never do anything like that again," (though I can't say I'd expect him to buy it) a verbally violent response is perfectly reasonable and acceptable to my mind.

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I can't reconcile teaching my children that some violence is ok and some is not. I do think yelling "F*ck you, b*tch" into the phone is both violent/abusive AND unnecessary. If you're on the phone with someone and don't like what they have to say, put the phone down. I don't think there is ever a time when hurling profanities at people is necessary, and I do think that saying there is is very much like saying there are times when spanking is necessary. Both are violent; both are wrong.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I have a teenager who does cuss when he is with his friends. He has told me this. However, he knows not to cuss around me. I also tell him that because that kind of language is offensive to others he should not use it within earshot of others, especially young children. He seems to understand this, although I cannot say for sure what he does when I'm not around. I would be mortified if he screamed such a thing to his grandmother or anyone else.

I don't see how a telephone conversation warrants such an outburst. The child was not in any immediate or direct danger from his grandmother. I would not punish or admonish him for having such an outburst, though, because it is understandable under such circumstances and he probably doesn't have the knowledge or skills yet to know what to do instead. I would talk with him later about other ways he could have handled the situation. I would not encourage, condone or accept any kind of vengeful behavior. This is just not healthy.


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## aguacates (Sep 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dandamomma*
I don't understand this at all. If we raise our kids with the understanding that hitting them is always wrong because it's violent and abusive, to me it is a contradiction to then say "But we can be verbally violent and abusive sometimes, and that's ok." To me that's like someone saying, "I had to hit him, it was the only way to get him to mind me."







:

In my mind this is not a discipline issue. The boy was not trying to discipline his grandmother or get a behaviour out of her. It was all about self expression. It was not a gentle expression, but I have to agree with eilonwy about the balance of power issue. If yelling at her is what he, as a violated person, needs to do to regain his sense of power in the relationship, I think it is vastly different from, for instance, you choosing to use a similar expression with your children when they are being challenging.


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## urklemama (May 4, 2003)

I can't believe no one has brought this up.

The reason you help children to develop enough self-control so that they don't scream profanities no matter how angry they are is so they don't end up turned into hamburger by cops.

The moral issues brought up here are totally irrelevent. What's more, you can't judge something like this without knowing the family and the children. It may have been tremendously healing for those boys to scream what they did. If that's the only tool they felt they had to assert themselves, if that's the best way they could feel power over the person who violated them, then they did the right thing at that moment.

But they absolutely have to learn that those words aren't ok. You can't just teach children, "it's ok to use those words but in some circumstances there will be consequences" because the stakes are way too high. That's like telling children that it's ok to play in the road, but in some circumstances there will be consequences.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *urklemama*
But they absolutely have to learn that those words aren't ok. You can't just teach children, "it's ok to use those words but in some circumstances there will be consequences" because the stakes are way too high. That's like telling children that it's ok to play in the road, but in some circumstances there will be consequences.

My parents taught us that we could use certain words at home that we couldn't use in public. At 4 years old I understood that D*mn, sh*t, f*ck etc were all fine at home but not at grandmas and not at Kroger (namecalling never was OK though).

I never once said a swear word at school or at grandmas or at the store. Never once, though we were all quite creative with them at home.

Kids are so smart. They really can handle these types of distinctions. In fact, I heard an intervew with a sociaologist on NPR (Fresh air) about elementary and even preschool kids swearing around each other but not when adults are around. They already are making these distinctions . . .


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *urklemama*
I can't believe no one has brought this up.

The reason you help children to develop enough self-control so that they don't scream profanities no matter how angry they are is so they don't end up turned into hamburger by cops.
...
But they absolutely have to learn that those words aren't ok. You can't just teach children, "it's ok to use those words but in some circumstances there will be consequences" because the stakes are way too high. That's like telling children that it's ok to play in the road, but in some circumstances there will be consequences.

You and I have very different opinions on this. I guess I have a lot more faith in a child's ability to learn to navigate through the world than you do. I'm absolutely certian that a child can learn that certain words are only acceptable in certain places. It's okay to play in the road but in some circumstances there will be consequences is true, but I would rephrase it: some roads are better to play in than others, and some times are better to play in the road than others. I suppose that's why I parent the way that I do.

I tend to use a lot of coloful metaphors around certain people and in certain places, but not in others. I'm at my IL's, and I haven't used the word "sh*t" once since I've been here, but I use it on a very regular basis at home. In fact, my not-quite-two year old son already knows that there are some people he can say certain words around and other people he can't, and his vocabulary isn't all that extensive. I've never heard him say so much as "dammit!" to his grandmother, but he says it at home a fair bit (as in, he drops his piece of cheese and says "Dammit, I drop a cheese!")


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## urklemama (May 4, 2003)

Let me be clearer; I wrote that very quickly. I shouldn't've said or implied that all children need to learn that those words are absolutely not ok and should never be used period. That's wrong. That's an individual family decision.

I do believe that children must learn that those words *should never, absolutely never, be used to express extreme anger* and absolutely need to be given other tools. It's a safety issue, ESPECIALLY for boys. You need to think about what your child is going to fall back on as a teenager.

I am basing this, btw, in experience. My experience has been that families who, with the best intentions in the world, permit this kind of language as a way of blowing off steam end up with teenage boys getting thrown to the ground by large adult men, and getting tossed into paddy wagons, because the first things that come out of their mouth under stress are "what the fuck?" And these are all good, decent families, who absolutely taught their children that there's a time and place for everything. If you asked any one of these boys in a time of quiet and calm whether they should mouth off to a large man with a gun they would have said of course not. But in the heat of the moment, how many of us lose control? Adolesent boys need EXTRA control, and the training has to come early.


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Why are 'large adult men' throwing boys to the ground?

Is 'what the f*ck?' a misdemeanor or felony? Or just worthy of having violence against you?

I need to know because I say that phrase and if I am going to be thrown the ground by a large adult male, I want to know about it ahead of time.


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## urklemama (May 4, 2003)

Oh come on. I live in a city. Teenage boys get told move on by the police. If that's not part of your experience, great for you.

Another example: a friend of mine's son was crossing the street on Halloween and a truck ran a red light. He screamed at the truck "What the fuck are you doing, there are fucking little kids out here" and the guy pulled over and beat him up.

OBVIOUSLY I'm not defending police brutality or assault and battery. But pretending like this kind of thing doesn't happen is like not teaching your daughters never ever ever go up to some drunk frat boy's dorm room.

Boys need to control their tempers to keep themselves safe just like girls need to be wary to keep themselves safe. That doesn't mean anyone deserves what happens to them. It's no statement on the morality of cussing or anything else. It's reality. Boys are going to grow up in a world where they will have interactions with asshole adult men who will take any excuse to "teach that boy a lesson." It's absolutely horrible and disgusting that people will do that BUT THEY WILL. And it's triply, a hundred times worse when the interaction is with a police officer who knows beyond the shadow of a doubt that as long as there's no broken bones, he's gonna get away with it.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

People who would beat up a kid for swearing will find some other reason to beat them up even if the kid does not swear. People who use violence against children (or against anyone, really) are messed up people and will be violent no matter how hard their victims try not to provoke them. The OP's MIL is an example of this kind of person.


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

Exactly, Greaseball.

If someone held me down and cut my hair off and then made me really angry on the phone, I would say "F*** you, b*****" as well. Call me unfrefined with an overdeveloped id if you will







. Actually, I wouldn't say the b word because I have other issues with it, but that is a different story.

Of course, we teach our children to communicate effectively, but this is an extreme situation. I find it sad that there is such a double standard for children.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

And I don't agree with this idea that people who swear as children will swear all the time as adults and no one will want to be around them.







Most children swear. They may not do it around their parents or other adults, but they do it. And they don't all become filthy-mouthed adults. There are things that kids just do that they grow out of.


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## Lisa Lubner (Feb 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *playdoh*
Why are 'large adult men' throwing boys to the ground?

Is 'what the f*ck?' a misdemeanor or felony? Or just worthy of having violence against you?

I need to know because I say that phrase and if I am going to be thrown the ground by a large adult male, I want to know about it ahead of time.

well... technically speaking, you CAN get arrested for swearing at an officer. it is an old law, and it's details vary from state to state, but it's there... and it is a problem in places where police brutality is an issue, as it has been used as an excuse to abuse people. the reason the black panthers started calling police officers "pigs" was because of this law, and they didn't want to give the police a reason to arrest them.

more recently though (an example):

Quote:

ACLU fights Pennsylvania police on profanity arrests

By The Associated Press

07.10.02

PITTSBURGH - Erica Upshaw was having one of those days.

The mother of three was rushing a load of groceries to her sister's house when she was pulled over by an officer who said she had made an incomplete stop.

When told her driver's license was suspended, Upshaw used a profanity to describe her day. She ended up in jail for her choice of words.

"It was so humiliating," recalled Upshaw, 28, who said she was trying to get home to tend to a 6-year-old daughter who had just lost a tooth.

The American Civil Liberties Union says that when North Braddock police arrested Upshaw in the summer of 2000 for foul language, the officers joined a growing number of police who have crossed a line drawn by the courts.

Upshaw's case is at the center of one of two lawsuits the ACLU filed last week in federal court in Pittsburgh, accusing area police departments of violating people's right to free speech. The lawsuits seek unspecified damages.

The lawsuits are intended to warn police across the nation, said Witold Walczak, executive director of the ACLU's Pittsburgh chapter. He said officers need to realize they create tremendous stress on people and should expect emotions to spill out.

Every state has laws against foul language, but the courts, including the U.S. Supreme Court, have generally agreed that the words have to be used in a violent or sexually obscene context, said John Burkoff, associate dean and law professor at the University of Pittsburgh. Uttering something vulgar or profane is not, in itself, grounds for arrest, he said.

In one case out of Michigan, Timothy Boomer, a canoeist who let loose a stream of curses after falling out of a canoe, was found guilty three years ago of violating a law against cursing in front of women and children. He was fined $75 and ordered to perform four days of community service. In April, though, an appeals court struck down the 105-year-old law and threw out the conviction.

Jim Pasco, executive director of the National Fraternal Order of Police, disputed the notion that police are misusing the disorderly conduct laws. He said officers may feel it is necessary to arrest someone on a minor charge to prevent more serious crimes.

The ACLU said it has been receiving five or six complaints a year from western Pennsylvanians arrested for swearing. Last month, Pittsburgh police agreed to pay $275,000 to settle 32 cases brought by the ACLU, some of them involving profanity arrests.

In Upshaw's case, a judge threw out the disorderly conduct charge because her words were scatological but not sexually explicit. And a driving-without-a-license charge was dropped when it turned out that her suspension resulted from a computer glitch.

But she still ended up spending an afternoon in jail. She could have gotten up to 90 days in jail and a $300 fine on the disorderly conduct charge.

Upshaw contends she was calm and swore only once. "They were really hostile," she said. But a police report said officers warned her five times to stop cursing, and described her as "loud and belligerent."

"Our police aren't out there just to arrest people who swear," said North Braddock Police Chief Henry Wiehagen. "There had to be a little more involved than just her vocabulary."

The ACLU's second lawsuit stems from the arrest of Amy Johnson, 27, a Chatham University student, and Gregory Lagrosa, 29, a University of Pittsburgh student. Johnson swore at a passing Homestead patrol car.

Johnson claimed that the car came dangerously close to the couple in a crosswalk.

A judge dismissed the charges, again because Johnson's words were not sexually obscene.

Homestead Mayor Betty Esper is standing firmly by the town's officers. She said preventing officers from making foul-language arrests could have a harmful effect on society, particularly when it comes to teaching children manners.

"If every kid can tell officers to go to hell and if police officers go break up a fight, can the kids say, 'Go stuff yourself?' " Esper asked.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Look, I swear all the time (I don't name call, there is a difference). I ALWAYS have (since I could talk). However, I have NEVER swore so otehrs could overhear in an public place, never been given a dirty look, never cursed at a cop or teacher. Kids can get this. They are amazing and so smart. They can get that you can swear when you are angry at home but not in public. I promise.

I really really think we don't give kids enough credit. I know part of me wants my kids to never see a commercial. But then part of me realizes that kids can get it - especially with some modeling and some explanation.


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## iris0110 (Aug 26, 2003)

What I really don't get is this:
Quote: Another example: a friend of mine's son was crossing the street on Halloween and a truck ran a red light. He screamed at the truck "What the fuck are you doing, there are fucking little kids out here" and the guy pulled over and beat him up.

Lets face it, this guy was in the wrong and even if the kid would have said "You know you shouldn't run a red light especially when so many kids are arround." The guy probably still would have pulled over and beaten him up. Here in Dallas a 4 yr old little boy was shot while sitting in the back of his parents car because his parents pulled out in front of another car and that man had a gun. I really don't think cussing has anything to do with the violence we are expiriencing in America today.

And just so you know a man was sentenced to spend four hours a day for a week standing next to a pig in a pen on a busy intersection with a sign that said "Police are not pigs" because he called a police officer a pig. Again no cursing involved.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Shann---








If you are still reading this you have far thicker skin than I (well, I already think that anyway, lol).

If you are looking for advice at this point, I would say...

Try to let it go. It's been three weeks (I hope the boys are feeling a bit better about their hair). Some people suck (MIL) and it sounds like you just need to cut her out of your life. I wouldn't let the boys talk to her for quite a while. I don't think it is doing them any favors to let them talk to her if it gets them so upset. You could tell her if *she* changes her mind/views to contact you, otherwise to just stay away.

And then I'd live my life as if she was never in it. Just another crazy lady that you will never allow to hurt your poor boys again.

They have expressed their hurt, their pain, their rage and it sounds like MIL is not hearing that, will not acknowledge her wrong...


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

Thank you, TiredX2


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

I thank you, too, TiredX2, and I also applaud you ! I think I agree with most of what you said in that last post. I do, however, have to make a couple comments to some people who have been so very negative in the latter part of this thread. I find it interesting that in the early part of the posts, I was getting so many "hugs" for what had gone on. Then I got suggestions, most of which were good (and I even accept the ones which weren't quite "so nice," cause I DID ask for comments and suggestions). What I find interesting is that many people said I should let the boys decide how to handle the situation. I thought that was a good idea, so I did that. It was the BOYS' idea to maybe try the "dirty hippy girls" suggestion (if they had said "no" that would have been the end of it---contrary to some people's belief in here, they WEREN'T forced into anything). But who got blamed and yelled at for that ? My bf and me, because we were "forcing" the boys to be "belligerent" or some such thing ! And when we let the boys talk to their grandmother on the phone (in full hopes that maybe they could patch things up---hoping maybe that she would say she was sorry) and SHE said something negative to them, and they lashed back at her, then we become the horribly bad parents who are not raising our sons right !!! *SIGH !* I guess there is no winning with some people in here ! First we were not letting the boys decide what to do enough, then we were bad parents for letting them take the initiative ! BUT I will say that the poster who suggested that my boys will be bad citizens for swearing or that they will have fewer friends REALLY got my dander up !







That was UNCALLED FOR ! I resented that very much (and most readers of my posts KNOW that rarely do I get overly upset at what is said to me in here --- but I tell you, I DID THIS TIME !) My boys know they are freely allowed to swear at home but they also know that they should maybe expect negative reaction to it when they are in public. But we feel that they were fully justified to swear at their grandmother when she called. We will continue to allow our boys to swear, but we will also continue to teach them when it is appropriate. To suggest that my boys are bad citizens for it or that they will have fewer friends really crossed the line in my opinion !


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Out of curiosity, Shann, are you having a dialogue with your boys about generating ways to deal with their anger toward their grandmother that do not involve retaliation?


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

Of course we are, Dragonfly ! One of which is "avoidance." Unfortunately, she had violated that on the night of the phone call.


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## Krystal323 (May 14, 2004)

This is crazy! Shann, I'm still here giving you









On the one hand, yeah, it's shocking for most folks to hear of 16 yr olds being "allowed" to cuss, let alone 6 yr olds.... But not all people who curse like sailors are bad, and there's plenty of people with "pure vocabularies" who are rotten to the core.









Have some more trust in this mama and her two boys, please folks?? Let's get past the particular choice of words and figure out what horrid things the MIL said to elicit such words from the poor kids, huh??









I for one totally applaud you, Shann, for being so very trusting and respectful of your boys' feelings, opinions, and their general path in growing up...! It's a hard and brave thing to do, but imo definitely the right way









Now then.................what did someone say about how we must surely teach our kids that hitting is wrong, and thus teaching them that cursing is sometimes ok is incongruent??? HUH?? I don't teach my kids that hitting is always wrong in every situation--jeez. If someone was trying to kidnap them I'd surely want them to use their karate moves or whatever as best they could! Even hitting/physical violence isn't *always* wrong. What do you want your kids to do if they're being attacked? Try to politely reason w/the creep??







Even cuss words might not help in that situation lol









That said, I hope Shann and her dear boys are able to move on from this traumatic event with some perspective gained and lessons learned, and with their emotions and feelings intact and healthy too! Good luck Shann


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

For anyone still interested, I FINALLY found out from the boys what their "grandma" said to them on the phone that caused them to react with words that so many of you have criticized both them and me about. I figured I wouldn't press them to tell me and that they would tell me in their own time if they wished. They both said that she told them that she had done them a favor by cutting their hair and that both I and their dad were bad parents for allowing them to look like that (i.e. the long hair) and that we didn't deserve to have kids and that if they agreed with us that they were bad kids as well and should be ashamed of themselves for treating their grandma the way they were doing. In other words, she was belittling both us and them directly to the boys. So now I REALLY don't regret supporting them in what they said to her ! She deserved every bit of that and more ! However, I am sure there are those of you who will still say I am wrong and am being a "terrible mommy" for allowing them to cuss at her. Oh well !


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Shann - I'm sorta on the fence about namecalling anyone - but it seems to me you really missed the point of the majority of the posters who thought the namecalling not the best reaction. It wasn't about whether the grandmother deserving it - it was the idea of giving someone his/her just deserts that was in debate. Maybe re-read this thread in the future sometime when the incident isn't so raw. And just ignore the very few posts that said snotty things about your mothering (these were in the minority - though I know they sting and are hard to see past).


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## mtnsunshinemama (Sep 21, 2004)

I just read this whole thread for the first time tonight and I find it really fascinating, as a new member and as someone interested in human behavior.

Shann, I was horrified to hear what happened to your boys. I know you must be emotionally exhausted firstly over just experiencing and processing the whole experience within your family. Then to come here and read all the posts of people processing, discussing and sometimes being critical of the situation must compound the stress.

I sure can't speak for the others, but it is my strong sense that we all are appalled by what happened to your family, and are trying to imagine how we might deal with such a situation in our own lives, but of course, none of us are in your shoes.

(Having a mother who might do something similar,) I can only imagine how incredibly livid and reactionary I might be in this case, I'm certain I would WANT to do something like using profanity and venting by sending the picture. I hope however, I would breathe and model the kind of behavior that I would want to teach my children and also my MIL.

However, IT DOESN'T MATTER what I think I would do. The point being that I honor you as a mother and I know you are doing your best with your children the circumstances you've been dealt. That is all you can be expected to do.

What I mean is, The purpose of this forum is to support each other yes, but also to discuss amongst ourselves issues relevant to our lives and mothering with individuals from places far and wide,who may be very different from us and who may have opinions and experiences very different from our own. How cool is that???? VERY! Then we get to solicit advice, comments, suggestions, just like you did with your post. It seems important then, to weigh the input you receive against our own truth and reality, and act from there.

I love it that everybody gets to speak their mind here,I think it is fascinating and wonderful to hear all of how all of us respond to such a provocative issue. I do realize it can be challenging to stay removed enough that criticism doesn't affect you,especially when the subject is so personal and raw to you, it must be difficult to remember that although this virtual illusion is wonderfully created, that in fact , these people aren't your best friends and may choose to run their lives in very similar but also different ways! There are very wise and wonderful women here, but all of us are just doing the best we know how.

I hope, sweet Shann, that you are able to do just that. Weigh the input you get here, carefully and heartfully against your own truth, and continue to be the best mother you know how. Dismiss what is hurtful to you as coming from someone who, although well intentioned, does not stand in your shoes.

Peace and All Blessings to you!


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## andreac (Jul 13, 2003)

Shann, I think you and your boys are well rid of your MIL!

mtnsunshinemama, that was a great post!!!







to MDC!!


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## mtnsunshinemama (Sep 21, 2004)

Thanks, Andreac and I echo your sentiments! I wouldn't want that kind of energy invited into my family life. Hopefully grandma will come to her senses one day, apologize and see the horrible mistake she's made.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Shann---










I just wanted to clarify that in NO WAY do I think you have done anything wrong w/this situation.

I am just encouraging you, at this point, to cut ties with that woman and let that be that. She, apparently, is not going to see the truth of the matter (that the problem is her and her issues w/gender, clothing, etc...) and exposing your children to that type of person is not good for them. If I thought that she was changing in her dialog w/them that would be one thing, but doing *anything* with her just seems to be fuel for the fire.

I'm just glad that your DP is supportive and your whole family realizes that MIL is a crazy kook, lol.










How are your boys doing? Are they feeling any better about their hair? It is probably not helpful, but in some ways it is probably best that MIL really went off the deep end making it clear a cut need to be made instead of just sneakily poisoning your family for years.


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

Thanks to mtsunshinemama, tiredx2, and andreac for your good words ! I really do appreciate them.
As for the situation, we have indeed cut ties with her, and that includes my bf (her son). She has lost a family. The boys don't even want her mentioned now ! (Their choice, no our "force", but I still secretly say "YAY !"). As for their hair, it is growing back, but still isn't as long as it was before or as long as we all want it (them included). It was about 6 inches below their collar line before, and is going to be alot longer than that now.We sometimes trim it (very slightly !) once in awhile, but we aren't even going to do that for several months now...their reward for the trouble they went through.
REALLY long hair is the goal for them now...no haircut or trim for them in the foreseeable future !







She thought it was long before----she ain't seen nothin' yet ! (although she won't be seeing them anyway).


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## ILuvMyBaby (Feb 24, 2004)

i can not even believe the nerve of some people.


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## liawbh (Sep 29, 2004)

Just wanted to say how much a feel for your boys! My son had long hair (past his waistband. He would occas. talk about cutting it, and I told him to be sure he wanted it. So this June, he actually was decided (and mentioned it for several weeks) so he donated it to Locks of Love, and even after all the forethought and discussion, he still had to cry and mourn his hair at bedtime that night. (He's happy with his "cool" look now) I can't even imagine how upsetting it would be for him to have that decision taken from him.

I'm glad you are giving them some freedom to feel and discuss ways to deal, instead of taking over for them, or encouraging suppression of feelings.

BTW I agree that kids can totally learn when and where swearing is appropriate. My mom used to say our house would be rated R for language, yet I have never used innappropriate language with superiors, even horrible teachers when I was an angry teen.








to your kids!


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

Thanks, Liawbh ! How old is your son, and how short did he get it cut ? That was a brave decision on his part.
And thanks for the understanding on the swearing. My kids also have VERY R-rated mouths at home, with our permission, but they also know that that won't always be met with as much acceptance outside our home.


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## liawbh (Sep 29, 2004)

DS is 8. He cut it very short, about 3/4 inch on top and shorter on the sides. He totally loves it now. It was getting tedious for him to brush it, as it was very fine and curly.


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