# Tell me I'm doing the right thing...



## becca_howell (Jan 3, 2009)

DH and I are Christians, and we have a very strict belief on what our children should be exposed to. We do not want our children around
1. cigarette smoke or people/things that smell like smoke,
2. drinking/drunkenness,
3. cursing,
4. people dressed immodestly.

The problem we have is FIL is guilty of 1-3, and SIL is guilty of 1 and 4. Our kids (3 and 18m) are starting to get very impressionable, and we are starting to have to crack down on our "family rules". We have stopped going over to my in-laws house because of all of the above.

FIL called last Friday to ask DH why we haven't been over. We told his mom, but didn't tell his dad because, well, he's a little tough to confront. He was also getting ready to have a total hip replacement, so we didn't want to upset him before. DH was upfront with him (FIL lit up his cigar the other day IN FRONT OF DS--completely aware of our wishes about smoking). He got mad and hung up on DH. Well, he's in the hospital and we're gonna go see him, but he may be released today. We are NOT going over to the house, and when he's a little healed up we're going to give him the following letter.

Since becoming parents, we have held certain beliefs regarding conduct around our children. We do not want our children exposed to the harmful toxins in cigar/cigarette smoke. This includes second and third hand smoke (the smoke smell on clothing, furniture, etc.) We want our children to be in a positive, Christian atmosphere. Our children are becoming more impressionable by the day, and we will take the necessary steps to protect their innocence and make sure they stay in that positive, Christian atmosphere.

Therefore, we are setting out our family rules:

1. To the best of our ability, our children will not be exposed to second or third-hand smoke. We will not go to any establishment, home or business, where smoking is allowed at the entrance or inside the building.
2. To the best of our ability, our children will not be exposed to drunkenness.
3. To the best of our ability, our children will not be exposed to harmful speech. This includes hateful speech, yelling, screaming, cursing or crude jokes.
4. To the best of our ability, our children will not be exposed to immodest dress. If someone around us is dressed immodestly, we will make sure our children know they are to never dress like that, and it is not the way God wants us to dress.
5. Everyone is invited to our home. However, the above rules still stand. Visitors to our home should not smell like cigarettes, be sober minded and not use what has been defined as harmful speech. They also must be dressed modestly. If they do not abide by these rules, they will be asked to leave our home.

These rules may come as a shock. They may be offensive to some. We are not doing this to isolate anyone. We are doing this to better our children's physical, emotional and spiritual health. What is right is not always popular, what is popular is not always right. If anyone is unable to visit our home because of our staircase(we live on the third floor of an apartment complex), we would be happy to meet them at a third party location, as long as the location adheres to the above mentioned rules.

I'm so non-confrontational, I'm starting to get nervous about DH giving his parents this letter. We gave it to my mother, but my parents abide by these rules and have the same rules for their own children (however, some of my family do smoke and live rather unruly).

Just tell me we're doing the right thing... I know it's the "Right" thing, and they're our kids so we can honestly do whatever we want, but I'm just nervous.
Last edited by becca_howell; Today at 05:22 AM..


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

My own opinion is that from a moral standpoint keeping family together is more important than whether someone smokes or dresses how you like. So I'll respectfully say I disagree with your stance and leave it at that.


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## becca_howell (Jan 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
My own opinion is that from a moral standpoint keeping family together is more important than whether someone smokes or dresses how you like. So I'll respectfully say I disagree with your stance and leave it at that.









I forgot to mention DS and I have asthma, which is the main part of our stance against smoke.


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## Attached2Elijah (Jun 27, 2004)

I can understand wanting a family member to wash their hands and not smoke around said children.

I can understand asking them to not drink around your children.

I can understand asking them to not curse around your children.

I can understand disagreeing with the way someone is dressed and simply teaching your children that we don't dress that way.

I can not understand possibly cutting them completely out of your life over these things. They have a right to live their life as they see fit even if you disagree with it. Your children are going to come across ALL of these things in life, maybe not now, but eventually and you should, instead, teach them that it's not something that you wish them to participate in but to give your family ultimatums in order to be able to see your children... probably not the best Christian lesson to teach them. I also don't understand why you need to write a letter/set of rules out instead of just asking "Could you not smoke/drink/curse around our children?" I have done this on more then one occasion and it's never turned into an argument... I would never think about writing out instructions though. That just seems over the top.


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## Lucy&Jude'sMama (Jun 4, 2010)

Personally I find it very extreme. I'm sure you will get mixed reviews about it here. I am not of your belief and that is why I find it extreme. I do understand all the rules and why you would want them in place. However I very strongly believe against teaching children people are bad and going against god because they are differen than you or do not believe the same. My bio dad was a religious fanatic (also drug addict and abuser) he beat me one day because I didn't want to wear a dress to church... I want to wear a nice pair of black pants and a long sleeve pink top... Very modest in my opinion and my moms (I didn't live with my dad) but because it wasn't a dress that went down to my knees I got beat for it. I wasn't even the same religion. He also use to tell me all my friends were going to hell because they were catholic. He was an extreme of course but I also grew up hearing other people say things that were a bit lighter but had the same meaning... These people are not like me and they do no believe like me and therefore these people are bad.

I know you are most likely set in your ways as most religious people I find are. I'm no against religion or belief, but coming from a kid who beard these things myself... Well it had the opposite effect (complete opposite) and it took me years to find my own beliefs and to even be able to walk into a church with out getting so angry I would cry at all the judgement and hate I heard around me.

Bottomline... These are your children and you have every right to raise them as you wish. If you make rules and people don't follow them or respect them you have every right to tell those people to step out of your lives. I may not agree with you but I do agree with this.


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## VillageMom6 (Dec 2, 2008)

I understand where you are coming from. I really do. We have the same sort of outlook.

I just fear that sending a letter like that is going to be like dropping an atomic bomb in your family's lap. I predict that nothing good will come from it. And I mean absolutely nothing good.

This is the sort of thing that is best handled delicately in person. The smoking issue needs to be addressed right away because it is an immediate health issue.

Your children are very young yet so I don't think that they would notice drunkenness, cursing or immodest dress unless the person is stumbling around, every other word is bad and private body parts are showing. I would save those issues for a little while later.

I do believe that it's okay (in fact, necessary) to limit one's contact with those whose lifestyle is problematic for you, even if they are family members. But it should be done after much prayer, counsel, and tactful discussion.

I highly recommend that you speak with your pastor, ask for advice on Christian forums, read Christian books or magazines about the topic, etc...

I would not send that well meaning, but inflammatory letter... especially when your FIL is recovering from surgery.

Good luck... take some time... and proceed very carefully.


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## becca_howell (Jan 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attached2Elijah* 
I can not understand possibly cutting them completely out of your life over these things. They have a right to live their life as they see fit even if you disagree with it. Your children are going to come across ALL of these things in life, maybe not now, but eventually and you should, instead, teach them that it's not something that you wish them to participate in but to give your family ultimatums in order to be able to see your children... probably not the best Christian lesson to teach them. I also don't understand why you need to write a letter/set of rules out instead of just asking "Could you not smoke/drink/curse around our children?" I have done this on more then one occasion and it's never turned into an argument... I would never think about writing out instructions though. That just seems over the top.

Maybe the letter isn't clear, or maybe I'm not making myself clear, but we're not wanting to cut people out of our lives. We're wanting to control the environment our kids are in as long as we can. We have made attempts to meet at a third party location (in-laws house reaks of cigarettes) to visit, offering to pay the bill for dinner, etc.

The reason for the letter is because when we make verbal requests, they go through a cycle: 1. ignore, 2. comply, 3. slowly disregard, 4. outright ignore, 5. verbal request is made again, 6. ignored for a while...

Also, FIL is a stubborn man, who sees nothing wrong with smoking, cursing, or drinking around the kids. My in-laws are raising their grandson (6), and he is exposed to all of this all of the time.


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## neetling (Jan 24, 2006)

I am a Christian too. I don't think your rules are realistic. I am on board with the smoking one for asthma/allergies.

I'm not sure the rest is the "right" thing that you want it to be. Jesus himself said this in Matthew 9

9As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.

10While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. 11When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"

12 On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'[a] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

So while I agree with you that you should live your life and teach your children according to the Word you believe in, you are coming across as super judgmental. I think a loving family is important too. Your children are very young. Certainly keep them from situations you don't approve of, but also know that there isn't any way to protect/censor their whole lives. Will you never go out to eat because people may order drinks with dinner? Go to the park because it's summer and people are showing skin?

We certainly asked for some accommodations when our children were born. Especially in regards to smoking. But both our mothers were smokers and we didn't visit their homes often, but realistically I think a loving grandparent should be given some grace.

I'm not saying you join in the parties. But YOU are your children's biggest influence. I think you can hold on to your values and teach your kids how to treat others kindly as well.


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## Xerxella (Feb 6, 2008)

I think you're fine. If that's the way you want to raise your kids and that's what's important to you, than you should do it. Everyone has a right to raise their children as they see fit.

But, keep this perspective. Imagine your children grow up and have children and they don't share all of your beliefs. But they have the following rules for their house:

People should not drink coffee or soda in their presence.
Everyone should keep their head covered at all times.
Do not wear perfume or use strong smelling soap or shampoo before coming to see your grandchildren.
Any other rule you have heard at someone else's house that you don't have at yours.

Me? I would follow my kids rules, because it's their house and they make the rules and, of course, mostly because I would want to have contact with my grandkids. But, it does feel a little controlling.

Overall, no one wants a swearing, smoking, half-naked drunk around their children. So, really no one should have a problem with those rules. But, not smelling like smoke would be REALLY hard for a smoker. IME, even when a smoker comes out of the shower there's still a lingering smoke smell. Also, lets say they shower, don't smoke and come right to your house. If they drove, their car probably smells like smoke and that will linger and cling to them.

I would think just not smoking around your children would be enough. Why does grandpa smell like that? He just does, everyone smells a little different. If their house is so filled with a smoke smell that you feel it's toxic, then you just can't visit there. I'd just tell them, I'm very concerned about the long term effects of the lingering smoke in your house and the health and well being of my children. It's nothing personal, it's about the known toxins in cigarette smoke.

But, it also sounds like there's more going on here than that.


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## sewaneecook (Nov 1, 2005)

We have a couple alcoholic family members and it is well known that if they are obviously intoxicated we leave. I don't want my children around the verbal abuse and cursing like a sailor that goes along with this kind of behavior. My MIL knows that if her father comes over and is drunk she can either ask him to leave or we leave. It's her house and it's up to her to make the decision who leaves. However, if it's at our house, he isn't allowed in if he's been drinking. DH and I are not opposed to drinking, just drinking in excess. Our kids have observed our drinking responsibly on occasion and our deciding not to drive if we have had a drink and making other responsible decisions after having a drink.

DH's grandmother smokes. I HATE it (I have asthma too), however her relationship with my children is very important to us. She knows that she will be alone any time she smokes around and there is only one place she is allowed while smoking while at our house (outside, secluded from our kids). Even this keeps her away more often than not.

I completely understand your rules, however, I wonder if it inhibits the relationship your kids will have with other family members too much. I WANT to post rules like yours, and I struggle with trying to find a happy medium between what I want and still keeping the relationship with family members.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

May I suggest cross-posting in the spirituality forum? There are a number of Christian, Muslim and Jewish moms there who are more observant than their extended families as far as modesty, etc. and who might have more experience with threading this type of needle. Good luck!

ETA: I'm not clear on whether the requirement for avoiding people who don't follow your teachings is self-imposed, or a teaching of your actual church.


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## becca_howell (Jan 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewaneecook* 
I completely understand your rules, however, I wonder if it inhibits the relationship your kids will have with other family members too much. I WANT to post rules like yours, and I struggle with trying to find a happy medium between what I want and still keeping the relationship with family members.

It definitely hasn't been a decision we made lightly. We have prayed, I have cried, for 3 years through all of this. They just don't understand. At the end of it all, we had to realize that we are responsibile for our children's physical, emotional and mental health and being around a smoking, cursing, drunken (when FIL is drunk, he is abusive in speech as well) person no matter what relation they are to us, is detrimental to their overall health. We probably won't give them "the letter" for another few weeks, but we are not going over to their house and offering every weekend to take them out so they can spend time with their grandkids.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I want to clarify. I have an alcoholic parent, and I plan visits so they're only in the day when he's less likely to be drunk, and if he is drunk we leave. I don't just expose my kids to anything. And I don't leave my kids alone with my parents. But I wouldn't make rules that judged how they dressed or anything like that, and I think that cutting off my family or being judgmental about things that don't directly impact my kids would be worse than a bad clothing choice. So saying, "The smoke is bad for ds and I can't bring him to your house. Maybe you could come here?" I would understand. If they swear, I can see asking them to not curse around your kids because you don't want them to pick up that habit. But to send a letter that sounds very judgmental to me and has the likely consequence of keeping them from being a part of your kids' life seems counterproductive to the overall objective of teaching morals.


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## *bejeweled* (Jul 16, 2003)

I respectfully say this---It sounds like you want to keep them from much of the world. Is this healthy?

I think that you may be asking the question because you have some reservations about your rules.


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## VillageMom6 (Dec 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *becca_howell* 
Maybe the letter isn't clear, or maybe I'm not making myself clear, but we're not wanting to cut people out of our lives.

But hon... I think that is the likely result of sending that letter, whether you mean for it to be or not.

Think of how it will be received. It could be interpreted as "Dear Family, you are a bunch of disgusting, rude tramps. You are damaging to our children. Change your ways or we won't grace you with our presence or allow you to intrude upon our home."

I understand that you want your family to clean up their act because you care about them and you want a wholesome environment for your little ones.

But what you're attempting requires the tact of a diplomat. I think *Xerxella* has a great point... put yourself on the receiving end and imagine how you would want to be approached.


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## ErinYay (Aug 21, 2008)

I'm with you on the smoking thing, but that's pretty much it. (We're fairly conservative Presbyterians.) Nowhere in the Bible does it say we have the right or obligation to control our environment; indeed, we're *meant* to be in a world that is not our own (Romans 12:1,) and to instill values in our kids in spite of it. We are to worry about our own homes only, and it is a sin to be angry about or attempt to control others' homes*.

"When asked which was the most important commandment, Jesus said "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." (Mark 12:28-31)

"Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. For with the judgment you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck in your neighbor's eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye? Or how can you say to your neighbor, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' while the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor's eye." (Matthew 7:1-5)

I reference these two passages frequently to remind myself that my only job is to raise my kids how I see fit. My job is not to control those around me to make this easier.

My $0.02, anyhow.

*"Homes" doesn't mean literally "other people's houses," but lives and behavior.


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## *bejeweled* (Jul 16, 2003)

ErinYay said:


> "Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. For with the judgment you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck in your neighbor's eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye? Or how can you say to your neighbor, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' while the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor's eye." (Matthew 7:1-5)
> 
> Thank you!


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## 20605 (Oct 11, 2004)

I can't really speak to the religious part of it. The points here that you need to commuicate are about the smoking. That is a HEALTH issue. The other things, well, I don't believe in wrapping kids in bubble wrap. They will learn from YOUR teachings and YOUR example about dress and behaviour. Unless you don't watch tv, walk on the street or otherwise interact with teh world, your kids are going to see immodest clothing (and what is that exactly?) and probably some drunkenness.

So what to do? Well, the zero tolerance on smoking is just that. When we go to my parents house, we sit outside as both dd and I are sensitive to it. I will not ask them to change their house - its THEIR house, but I can make other arrangements instead.

I think the onus is on you really. You have to show by example what you will tolerate and what you won't. As you said, you hve talked to them over and over again. A letter will only escalate hurt feelings not accomplish your goals.

Be firm when they are in your home that no smoking is allowed and neither is alcohol. when at theirs, you have a choice. Ooops...smoking..gotta go or can we go outside?

This is NOT a religious issue, its a health issue.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

I wouldn't send the letter. You will not be able to repair the damage the letter will cause.

You can parent your children through any of these issues mindfully and gracefully without having to control not only their environment but all the people in it. Trust your abilities as parents and let the rest go.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ErinYay* 
I'm with you on the smoking thing, but that's pretty much it. (We're fairly conservative Presbyterians.) Nowhere in the Bible does it say we have the right or obligation to control our environment; indeed, we're *meant* to be in a world that is not our own (Romans 12:1,) and to instill values in our kids in spite of it. We are to worry about our own homes only, and it is a sin to be angry about or attempt to control others' homes*.

"When asked which was the most important commandment, Jesus said "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." (Mark 12:28-31)

"Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. For with the judgment you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck in your neighbor's eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye? Or how can you say to your neighbor, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' while the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor's eye." (Matthew 7:1-5)

I reference these two passages frequently to remind myself that my only job is to raise my kids how I see fit. My job is not to control those around me to make this easier.

My $0.02, anyhow.

*"Homes" doesn't mean literally "other people's houses," but lives and behavior.

Word.

Keeping your kids from being exposed to the things you disagree with ever is NOT going to teach them how to choose the same values as you (and in fact ahs been seen regularly to backfire spectacularly once the kid is old enough to make thier own decisions). If you show them how to make your family's value choices *amidst* the things you disagree with, that's truly showing them your moral compass and strength.

Now, I'm not saying you want to regularly take your kids to a seedy bar or anything, but when it's family members, or you're out in public, you're showing them how to love their neighbor AND stand strong in their values. Asking someone to not smoke or get drunk or curse a blue streak in front of your kids is totally reasonable (though an occasional drink or a slipped word might be an opportunity to show forgiveness to your kids). The dress, well, that's a little more hinky as modesty is a kind of objective thing - you can't halfway smoke or drink or curse, you're either doing it or not doing it - but modesty can be so many different things to so many different people.

AND, you have to be really careful about how you present this to your kids, lest they develop a holier than thou attitude. Keep it focused on YOUR family and what your family does or does not do, not on whatever the other people are doing (and/or what Godly implications might come to others).


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

There's nothing wrong with wanting to protect young children from lifestyles that you believe are unhealthy.

However, I'm not sure that the letter is really "the right thing". And I say this as a super-conservative Christian who also objects to drunkenness, cursing, smoking, and immodesty. I really and truly understand your concerns.

Here's the thing--you just can't control the world around you. What that letter will do is fuel a fire. Tensions are already high, and these family members do not respect your beliefs, so basically it would be like firing a salvo to start a war, even though that's not your intent.

What I would do: Continue the not-visiting-them policy. If and when they ask about that again, respond along these lines: "We love you, we're sorry we can't visit you because we feel your home is unsafe for the children for reasons we already discussed. But we would love to see you at our home if you're willing to respect our home and family rules."

Personally, I would leave the modesty issue alone. It's not a health/safety issue, and they aren't receptive to being taught another way, so harping on it is pointless. In private, teach your children modesty. Also teach them to understand that there is a person underneath the skimpy clothes and that their goal as Christians should be to look past the modesty fail and try to reach the heart of the person with the love of Christ.


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## Pirogi (Apr 5, 2007)

I'm not religious.

I think you need to set some firm boundaries (sounds like you are getting there on this already) and then _enforce them_. You can't control other people's behavior. But you CAN and SHOULD enforce boundaries with other people, especially family. It sounds like some members of your family don't respect your verbal wishes. The only way to preserve your relationship with them (and that is one of the goals, right?) is to gracefully and non-confrontationally end the interaction whenever an inappropriate behavior occurs. If your FIL lights up in front of your kids (or is drunk, or spewing hateful speech, etc), you get up and leave, or he leaves your home. Every time. Until they get the point, or forever, whichever comes first.

IMO the only issue you can control here is your ability (inability?) to confront family members who violate your parental rules.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

I think you need to pick your battles, instead of trying to make everything ideal. Stick to the simple question: Is this truly causing direct harm to my child?

On the smoking:
Being close to the smoking is obviously harmful to young lungs. This is therefore an important battle.

The house smelling like smoke, though unpleasant, is not actually causing any harm. Even if you managed to motivate your ILs to try to rid the house of the smell, is isn't a very easily achievable feat. Every piece of upholstered furniture would need to be redone, and every surface scrubbed. Most likely pressing the point would just result in them spraying lots of icky chemicals on everything. You may want to try to spend more time away from the house and in fresh air, but it isn't a winnable battle. I would just drop this battle.

Taking the children to establishments, that allow smoking at the entrance, is not going to harm them. You can hold your breath as you quickly walk past the couple of smokers. If you try to completely avoid such places, it makes it very hard for the ILs to go out with you. You need to realize that for a smoker being able to smoke is a physical need. (I know people quit, but that is a longterm physically painful and difficult process.) If you want to only go places where smoking is impossible than they can not spend much time with you. Asking them to simply step out side and away from the children is a reasonable compromise.

The drinking:
Other people drinking does not harm your child. It isn't within your rights to try to control others alcohol consumption.

Their behavior is another matter. Though you can not actually control it, you do have a right to object to it and leave. I would focus on the unacceptable behavior and not bog down about whether or not it is OK to drink.

The crude language:
People will talk the way they will talk. It is largely ingrained. I would point out when you hear them say things you would rather your DC not repeat, but not nitpick every utterance out of their mouths.

Your children will learn how to speak much more from you and their peers than from your ILs. Children whose grandparents came from other countries and speak heavily accented broken English do not also speak heavily accented broken English, they speak in the manner that is prevalent in the region they grow up in. Whether that is a Texan twang or a New England drawl, They speak what their _peers_ speak.

Specifically hateful language is really more about behavior. If it crosses that line, then you should give a warning, but if it continues leave.

The immodest dressing:
This isn't doing anything to you DC. It isn't really your business. Your DC will see it out in the world anyway unless you put blinders on them every time you leave the house.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

I'm going to speak in support of your decision...

When it comes to your house and the people you allow in it YOU get to make the rules. If that means having a sweater collection to give those dressed immodestly then so be it. If that means not allowing people to smoke around your house then that's your choice.

When you go to someone else's house the rules change. That's just the way it is. You can make requests ("Lets keep the booze out of sight when we're there and wear clothes when you get out of the shower, please.") Just always keep in mind that you can't make demands at another house. That's not really your place.

I don't think you're trying to shelter your child from the world (as several posters seem to think) I can understand wanting those that are a DIRECT INFLUENCE on your child (family) to be a good example. I can totally get behind that. There are several people in DH's family that probably won't be allowed to have contact as our children get older because of their behavior and lifestyles. I also agree that they're at impressionable ages. Seeing FIL smoke or have the occasional drink may plant a seed.

I don't think that you're being judgemental. You never said, "You're terrible people because XYZ and THAT is why we have nothing to do with you." You've made the request that these things are unacceptable in your eyes and you want to make sure that your children have those morals set while they're young.


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## *bejeweled* (Jul 16, 2003)

Did you not know these things about FIL and SIL before u married into the family?


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Uhhh... last I checked there wasn't actually any commentary in the Bible on smoking and the Bible is pretty dang pro-wine. So uhm, trying to say that you want your children to be brought up Christian so they can never have any exposure to people who smoke or drink is uhm stretching things more than a little.

I'm pretty ok with cutting parents out of ones life--my mother is pretty psycho. (Like... literally psychotic.) It seems to me that you are nitpicking here. You don't get to have this kind of control over everyone. If you just don't want your kids to know your families you should be a bit more upfront and honest about it. It sounds an awful lot like even if they jump through hoops for you at some point you might raise the bar again. That's not so awesome.


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## azgirl (Nov 27, 2006)

Your rules are all quite sensible from a physical/emotional health perspective, but they don't have much to do with Christianity as I understand it. For instance, the Bible is pretty clear about respecting our parents, but smoking cigars is not much of an issue







I kept a kind and respectful relationship with my smoking dad by asking him to shower before he came over (my son has lung disease from being a micro-premie). My IL were new to Christianity when my DH was little. They kept their distance from "unsavory" family. Now....my by the time they were teenagers DH and his bro drank, did drugs, smoked (bro still does) got tattoos, dated immodest girls (is that where I come in??) and have almost no relationship with their grandparents they also began to doubt their faith and so far they haven't recovered it







I let my son have a very close relationship with my in-laws even though they do and say things I do not believe in. Many MDCers would keep their kiddos away from people like them, but I believe family relationships and relationships in general are extremely important. It's also important to keep your kids healthy and it sounds like keeping them away from smoke is important. I would find a different way of doing that. Also, by labeling those things as un-Christian you run the risk of messing with your kids faith. Kids can smoke, drink and wear skimpy clothes and still be Christian, but if they get the wrong messages young...they may tell themselves that they aren't Christian anymore when the experiment with stuff. This happened to A LOT of people we know. There are plenty of Christians who smoke, drink and have tons of visible tatoos. Something to think about...


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## SubliminalDarkness (Sep 9, 2009)

Coming from a non-religious person who married into a Muslim family.... I know that my in-laws feel that my dress is "immodest." I am sure that some relatives would rather I cover my head and wear something different. I don't go around in miniskirts and belly shirts because I do have respect for these people, and I in no way mean to insult them. However, I would never cover myself to the extent they do because it goes against my personal beliefs.
I can assure you that if anyone ever asked me to dress differently in their home or around their family, we would never see those relatives again, and my husband would wholly support that.

Asking someone not to smoke around your kids? Fine. Asking someone not to drink in YOUR home? Fine. Asking people to watch their language around your kids? Again, fine, though I'd expect some slip-ups from even the most well-intended person on this one.

But sending that letter, or asking someone to dress differently, is taking a step too far and could ruin any chance of a relationship.


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## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

Run away from the letter. If you want to control the environment, I'd work on having the get togethers at your place or somewhere neutral.

We don't bring our kids to smokers homes. It's fortunately not that hard, and most smokers more than understand. I don't let people smoke around the kids, though my mom is a smoker and I'm sure they are exposed to some third hand smoke on her clothes and skin. That said, at best, she sees them once a week for a few hours, so I'm not worried about the risk any more than environmental pollutants and the loving relationship she has with them is really important.

No one near us drinks to the point of drunkeness. However I would make that a rule in your house. At a neutral site, I'd just make it clear, the minute FIL starts knocking them back, is the minute you leave.

Same with abusive language. We're Christian, but we do occasionally cuss, it's not a big deal. We don't do it around the kids, though I have been known to drop a nasty word in the car while driving. They know they're not supposed to say those words and that mommy is wrong for saying them. I can't tell you how many times I've been scolded by my oldest for saying something like stupid or shoot. I'd ask ILs to cut it down, I wouldn't come at it from a "We're trying to teach our kids to be good Christians" perspective, because I know many a good Christian who can swear up a good streak, but rather "They're young and repeating everything, so we need you on board with this. We're going to have to split if it's not under control." If someone is being abusive in their language directly towards someone, then you leave.

Clothing. Respectfully, I think you're pushing it. You cannot tell people how to dress. Jesus hung out with people who were likely provocatively dressed for the time. I think you can too. You can always explain to your children that this is how so and so dresses, but your family doesn't.

I think ultimately you cannot control people. You can ask and remind if need be. Anything that is a physical or emotional health issue, I'd stay firm, but things like clothing, or someone occasionally swearing (if they're trying not to-it's a hard habit to break) I think you need not be so rigid.


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## Tway (Jul 1, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by **bejeweled** 
I respectfully say this---It sounds like you want to keep them from much of the world. Is this healthy?

I have to agree. The more you keep your kids isolated, the harder--I think, anyway--it will be for them to live in a bigger world. I totally agree that you should ask people not to smoke in your kids' presence. And I also agree that your kids shouldn't be exposed to drunken abuse.

But people in the world swear, and smoke, and drink, and have any number of vices we don't want our children to pick up. I think it's our job to show our kids how to deal with these things (i.e. ask someone to please put their cigarette out, teach kids that alcohol is for adults and in moderation, etc.) so they can make decisions on their own.

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents' worth.

ETA: I was just thinking of that program "19 Kids and Counting", where the family is very Christian and modest. They practice that within their family, but they seem to have no problem with other people drinking or dressing immodestly and so on. They teach their beliefs, but show their kids that they also live in a bigger world. KWIM?


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

Well, from a Christian standpoint, I don't see that this is how Christians are supposed to respond to people - especially those who are not Christian themselves.

I think what Karen said about parenting with grace is very much to the point.

You might find the book "Grace Based Parenting" a useful read.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *becca_howell* 
I forgot to mention DS and I have asthma, which is the main part of our stance against smoke.

This is the ONLY point that matters.

The only one. The rest is just going to cause relationship problems.

I'm not a Christian, but my parents and sister are all fundamentalist. They disapprove of the books we read, the movies we watch, the clothes we wear. "Modest" is totally a judgment call, and my sister was deeply bothered by my DDs wearing sundresses with spaghetti straps because, to her, that was immodest. My kids looked cute.









It is completely reasonable to not allow people to smoke around your asthmatic child. It is completely reasonable to expect adults to stay sober around children. However, someone having a glass of wine or a bottle of beer in their own home really isn't your business. How other people dress isn't your business. At all.

Your children are stronger and smarter than you give them credit for. You don't need to control everybody else for them to learn.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *becca_howell* 
control[/B] the environment our kids are in as long as we can.


You can't control the rest of the world, esp. your father in law. You can love him the way he is (which is what Jesus would do) or you can cut him out and then some day explain to your grown children that you didn't let them have a grandfather growing up because he said bad words.

_
When you love a smoker...._
I used to take my kids to see my grandmother, who was a chain smoker. We talked about it. We talked about what smoking does to a person, what the word "addiction" means, and how everyone has flaws. We talked about loving people inspite of their flaws.

My grandmother died of a smoking related cancer a few years ago, and it broke my heart. I miss her very much. I'm very glad that I let my kids get to know her, and that she got to enjoy them.

I wish that she hadn't smoked because may be I would still have her around. I don't regret one minute of the time that I spent with her with my kids.

My kids hate cigarettes. Caring about someone and then watching them die from cancer is a powerful experience. You don't need to raise your kids in a bubble for them to figure which path makes more sense.


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## texmati (Oct 19, 2004)

I dunno... I"m sort of in agreement with you in 1-4--

I'm a teetoler and would not (under a certain age) have my kids around alcohol. I also understand about not cursing and taking smoking outside of the house. I would have a problem with number 4 though-- I guess cause it just seems so personal and arbitrary. Smoking, cursing, drinking are all well defined. But I can't imagine turning my sister a way because her shirt was too low cut.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *becca_howell* 
Maybe the letter isn't clear, or maybe I'm not making myself clear, but we're not wanting to cut people out of our lives. We're wanting to control the environment our kids are in as long as we can.

But is doesn't seem like you're trying to control his environment, you're trying to control people. If your family were willing to quit smoking, quit drinking, stop cursing, and wear clothes you find appropriate, and otherwise conform to your world-view, then you'd accept them. I don't think that is a wise thing to teach children. That just shows that your personal worldview is of primary importance, that a persons' worth is measured against how well they conform, and shared humanity is of secondary importance, or perhaps not important at all.


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## ThisCat (Jun 19, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
The house smelling like smoke, though unpleasant, is not actually causing any harm.

While I'm not going to get into whether it's a legit reason to not go to grandma's house, I just wanted to mention that third hand smoke (the chemical residue left behind after smoking) is toxic and could be a health risk particularly to babies and small children.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ird-hand-smoke


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attached2Elijah* 
I can understand wanting a family member to wash their hands and not smoke around said children.

I can understand asking them to not drink around your children.

I can understand asking them to not curse around your children.

I can understand disagreeing with the way someone is dressed and simply teaching your children that we don't dress that way.

I can not understand possibly cutting them completely out of your life over these things. They have a right to live their life as they see fit even if you disagree with it. Your children are going to come across ALL of these things in life, maybe not now, but eventually and you should, instead, teach them that it's not something that you wish them to participate in but to give your family ultimatums in order to be able to see your children... probably not the best Christian lesson to teach them. I also don't understand why you need to write a letter/set of rules out instead of just asking "Could you not smoke/drink/curse around our children?" I have done this on more then one occasion and it's never turned into an argument... I would never think about writing out instructions though. That just seems over the top.









:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Xerxella* 

Overall, no one wants a swearing, smoking, half-naked drunk around their children. So, really no one should have a problem with those rules. But, not smelling like smoke would be REALLY hard for a smoker. IME, even when a smoker comes out of the shower there's still a lingering smoke smell. Also, lets say they shower, don't smoke and come right to your house. If they drove, their car probably smells like smoke and that will linger and cling to them.

I would think just not smoking around your children would be enough. Why does grandpa smell like that? He just does, everyone smells a little different. If their house is so filled with a smoke smell that you feel it's toxic, then you just can't visit there. I'd just tell them, I'm very concerned about the long term effects of the lingering smoke in your house and the health and well being of my children. It's nothing personal, it's about the known toxins in cigarette smoke.


Word

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom* 
There's nothing wrong with wanting to protect young children from lifestyles that you believe are unhealthy.

However, I'm not sure that the letter is really "the right thing". And I say this as a super-conservative Christian who also objects to drunkenness, cursing, smoking, and immodesty. I really and truly understand your concerns.

Here's the thing--you just can't control the world around you. What that letter will do is fuel a fire. Tensions are already high, and these family members do not respect your beliefs, so basically it would be like firing a salvo to start a war, even though that's not your intent.

What I would do: Continue the not-visiting-them policy. If and when they ask about that again, respond along these lines: "We love you, we're sorry we can't visit you because we feel your home is unsafe for the children for reasons we already discussed. But we would love to see you at our home if you're willing to respect our home and family rules."

Personally, I would leave the modesty issue alone. It's not a health/safety issue, and they aren't receptive to being taught another way, so harping on it is pointless. In private, teach your children modesty. Also teach them to understand that there is a person underneath the skimpy clothes and that their goal as Christians should be to look past the modesty fail and try to reach the heart of the person with the love of Christ.

Yep. I completely agree. And thanks for weighing in from a conservative Christian perspective.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think family is more important than how someone dresses or whether someone is sober or not, though if they act badly when they are drunk then I would reassess that. If you are not able to be around the cigaretted smoke because of your health then I think you should just use that excuse and invite people over but make it clear smoking isn't allowed.

I agree with numbers 1-3 personally, but I have addressed it by not allowing smoking in my home or on my property, not having drinks in my home, and talking to my dd about why we don't do these things from a health and/or moral perspective. The swearing is hard because it is often an ingrained habit and the people who do it see no problem with it. I usually cut in and say that we have young ears around and that reminder is usually all it takes.

This letter is probably going to cause some anger and may cause them to think you are trying to cut them off. If they ignore the letter you have nothing you can do except cut them off. I think you should think carefully about how much your husbands family matters to all of you and whether you really want to start animosity over their lifestyle choices if you can accept some things and use your health as an excuse for other things. If you and your husband are willing to cut his family off because they don't have the same beliefs than by all means take a firm stance, but if you aren't then the letter will be pointless and may undermine compromise tactics. I think it is best to start small then go to something like the letter later if it gets to a point where you and your husband agree to cut them off.


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## confustication (Mar 18, 2006)

I'll be brutally honest here, if anyone sent me a letter of that sort, they would be welcome to not interact with my family again- ever. It's very much a holier-than-though approach and I would not want to spend even a moment with someone who perceived themselves as a Christian, but used that faith as a tool to pass judgment on myself or my family members. I can't believe that a letter like this wouldn't cause an irreparable rift within the family.

My father smokes- and while I certainly don't approve- I can't control his actions. He knows he can't smoke around the kids because there is a significant health impact. My 8 year old knows he smokes, she knows I don't approve, and she knows it's unhealthy. She also knows that it isn't her job to pass judgment on his choice.

DH does not drink, and while I might have half a beer or a glass of wine a couple times a year, I am pretty darn tee-totaling the vast majority of the time. I won't allow my kids around someone intoxicated, but someone having a beer in the evening is not going to somehow corrupt them since the far greater influence is our home and the values we teach them.

Cursing? There's a level of common decency- why can you not simply ask (when it happens and you are there with the kids) that people be aware of little ears. I have never encountered someone so bent on cursing that they weren't compliant with a gentle and respectful reminder that small ears were listening. If someone did not care, I would - in that moment- remove myself and the children from the situation. On the other hand, cutting off contact with people because they swear when they stub their toe or drop a pan is going to result in a very lonely existence.

As for immodest dress- well- I can't quite grasp why what is right for you and your children has to be shared by everyone. Obviously, if Auntie is in a g-string and pasties hanging on a stripper pole out front when you arrive you may need to address the issue with the kids, but beyond that- it's really a non-issue.

There have been some great passages here about these issues, and I urge you to visit them, and consider them before you create a problem that does not need to be created.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *becca_howell* 
At the end of it all, we had to realize that we are responsibile for our children's physical, *emotional and mental health* and being around a smoking, cursing, drunken (when FIL is drunk, he is abusive in speech as well) person no matter what relation they are to us, is detrimental to their overall health.

how is imposing such strict rules taking care of your children's emotional and mental health?

how is cutting out close family members taking care of their emotional and mental health?

if you want your wishes known, perfect.

you want to send them a letter. OK. just NOT that letter. it is sooo strongly worded. it is rude, impolite and extremely, extremely arrogant - and it will tear up the family.

there is already perhaps some issues going on with your family dynamics. this letter will be as someone wrote like an atom bomb going off.

i would rewrite that whole letter completely. do NOT pontificate. i know perhaps you get all emotional writing it, dont make commands, make requests.

i am sure if you posted here that you'd like help to write a genuine letter requesting the above - parents here would be happy to help you out.

there are many, many in your situation.


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## Toolip (Mar 7, 2008)

I grew up around people who were very judgmental towards smokers/drinkers/immodest dressers and I really resent it now. I ended up with a holier than thou attitude and got some pretty harsh feedback as an adult. That is something that I would be very careful of.
Now I honestly think that smokers get a totally unfair amount of blame. There has been such a huge push to get people away from smoking (which would be great! I totally think it is gross) that many people now have a knee-jerk reaction about smoking and how disgusting it is, without giving equal weight to the other air contaminates that are equally bad asthma triggers (at least for some people). To me the smoking is a cultural issue, not a Christian one.
I also don't think that it's fair to identify drinking as a problem (in regard to others, if you choose not to yourself, that's fine!), I think that behavior is the issue I would focus on. If drinking is causing inappropriate behavior then that is not ok, but I wouldn't make it about the drinking. I won't go out to dinner with the relatives I have who made such a public point about their disgust with people who drink. I like to have a glass of wine occasionally and I don't want to have to worry about that criticism, even if they don't say it out loud anymore.
Modesty is something that I have always thought of as a personal issue and not something to impose or judge others by at all. Dress modestly so that people focus on the parts of you that you want them to, so your body won't be a distraction to them. However, you are responsible for your own thoughts about another person, and being able to focus on who they are (not their body) regardless of what they are wearing.

I think that family (and any person, really) is more important than any of these issues. I hope you are able to have a peaceful relationship with these relatives









I would also not send the letter. I write letters like that all the time. I find it useful for myself to sort my thoughts out, but I don't send them.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

My religious beliefs are very tolerant and nonjudgmental, also not christain. We would never have our DD around anyone while they are smoking or drunk. Smoke, even second and third hand is toxic. Being around drunk people isn't child appropriate. We wouldn't stay around people who are using inappropriate or especially hateful language and have asked friends to 'watch' their language. My DD has seen people drink beer occasionally, including DH and FIL. But there is a big different between a couple of beers and being drunk. We only have one acquaintance who has come over drunk to our house and we asked him to leave. As for modest dress, people wear what they want and differences are part of what make people interesting. We've told DD that our culture has taboos against being nude so she has to wear clothes when she goes out or we have guests. So we've never even told her any forms of dress or undress are wrong, just culturally expected etc. So we have completely different beliefs from the OP but would still not have our DD around smoke, drunk people or bad language. You don't have to be judgmental or religious to say "I don't think certain things are not child appropriate".

I would not send the letter. I would just leave anytime there is smoking, someone is drunk or someone is using bad language. If the house is permeated with third hand smoke I would say you need to meet somewhere else to visit because of the asthma. My mom smoked, until she died from obstructive lung disease, and she never smoked inside the house if I was visiting because of my allergies.


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## averysmomma05 (Feb 28, 2007)

*I wouldn't send the letter mama!

We are a christian family and only wear skirts,dress modest but I would never cut anyone out who wore pants,or dressed immodest. You might loose alot of people with those rules. Hugs!
*


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I think your children are going to learn far more from seeing you deal gracefully with your family than standing in judgement of them and their choices and shunning them. I am very serious about my faith. I love God and hold myself to a very high standard. A true Biblical and Godly standard. But I drink (I have never been drunk), occasionally make unfortunate clothing choices (accidentally), my best friend smokes (at my house, in front of my children!!!!), and we both have potty mouths that sometimes run away from us. And if someone came to me and said "Can you not smoke/drink in front of my children" I would likely say sure and not do it. Regardless of their reasons. but if they came at my with judgment, and made it clear from their attitude and reasoning that they thought that THESE things made me less of a Christian than them I would be hurt, offended, think less of them and not be inclined to make any accommodations for them.

Feel free to think whatever you want of them but I see no reason sending the letter. They know how you feel about them, its obvious, and sending a judgmental rule list will only make you look super controlling and uppity. Skip it. If you don't want to hang around them don't. No need to dig your hole deeper. You are not making it any better. Now would be a good time to say less.


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## zebra15 (Oct 2, 2009)

HUMMMM.... nope dont send it. IMO its the wrong thing and I think you have plenty of examples of why its wrong.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

1. I'm an ex-smoker, and my DH still smokes
2. I enjoy drinking, and maybe a little drunkeness on occasion
3. I have a filthy mouth
4. I like showing cleavage

But then, I'm an atheist, so there ya go









Seriously, I can't imagine trying to control what your children are exposed to to that degree. I understand not wanting them to breathe in smoke frequently - sure, b/c is unhealthy, but I think you not only risk alienating your IL's and anyone else who doesn't fit your expectations from your life, but I would fear pushing my children to rebelling years down the road.

I would not write a letter; I would not cut people off who aren't as straight edge as you prefer.

You asked if you were doing the right thing, and so I'm saying no, no you're not. I don't think you should shove all your values to the side, but you need to find a way to meet halfway with these people. Otherwise, you will lose them - which doesn't sound worth it to me, just so your kids don't hear a bad word or two (and really, they will be exposed to all these things elsewhere in life, promise).


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

I second the advice to read Kimmel. He actually chose public school over homeschooling so his kids would be able to develop their faith in the face of opposition. Kids whose faith is never tested do not develop the strong roots and character that are important for lasting and continued spiritual growth.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
I think your children are going to learn far more from seeing you deal gracefully with your family than standing in judgement of them and their choices and shunning them. I am very serious about my faith. I love God and hold myself to a very high standard. A true Biblical and Godly standard. But I drink (I have never been drunk), occasionally make unfortunate clothing choices (accidentally), my best friend smokes (at my house, in front of my children!!!!), and we both have potty mouths that sometimes run away from us. And if someone came to me and said "Can you not smoke/drink in front of my children" I would likely say sure and not do it. Regardless of their reasons. but if they came at my with judgment, and made it clear from their attitude and reasoning that they thought that THESE things made me less of a Christian than them I would be hurt, offended, think less of them and not be inclined to make any accommodations for them.

Feel free to think whatever you want of them but I see no reason sending the letter. They know how you feel about them, its obvious, and sending a judgmental rule list will only make you look super controlling and uppity. Skip it. If you don't want to hang around them don't. No need to dig your hole deeper. You are not making it any better. Now would be a good time to say less.

Lilyka! You have a potty mouth! I am flabbergasted!


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## ErinYay (Aug 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid* 
I second the advice to read Kimmel. He actually chose public school over homeschooling so his kids would be able to develop their faith in the face of opposition. Kids whose faith is never tested do not develop the strong roots and character that are important for lasting and continued spiritual growth.

OT: The corollary to this, which we subscribe to, is that children aren't meant to face worldly opposition until they're mature enough- they are to be a light, but they're not prepared, emotionally, physically, or spiritually, to disciple to others. We feel that, like with socialization, homeschooling offers many opportunities for a wee one's faith to be tested (heck, just being alive can test one's faith) without putting them in a position where they must defend their faith day in and day out. There's a lot of debate about this, of course. We're BIG Douglas Wilson fans.


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

I think that when raising our children, we need to remember that someday they will not be in our home anymore. They will live out in the world where they need to be prepared to handle many different situations and many different types of people. They need to be able to do this not only with confidence, but also with grace and kindness.

It is important to protect our children from truly harmful things such as allergy/asthma triggers and abusive drunkenness and hate speech, however, when you send that letter you will not just be protecting your child from those things, you will also be teachign them that passing judgement on those who live life differently is okay even if hurtful and that they shouldn't be near anyone who lives that way.

This will be a hard lesson for them to live with.

As they grow older, they will find that MOST people, smoke or drink or swear or dress in a way that could be defined as immodest. When you send that letter, you will be teaching your children to tell the people they meet throughout life exactly what they think of them when they are stuck with the frustration of not being able to get away from them. Your children will not be able to avoid all people who don't smoke, drink, swear, OR dress how you have taught is the only appropriate way to dress and by keeping them away from the people who do all those things, you haven't taught your children how to be open minded and accepting of those who do those things and you haven't taught them how to be kind and friendly to them.

You are teaching your children to be judgemental and hurtful with that letter. If they are taught to even cut out FAMILY, how will they deal with stranger


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## Bellabaz (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 

Keeping your kids from being exposed to the things you disagree with ever is NOT going to teach them how to choose the same values as you (and in fact ahs been seen regularly to backfire spectacularly once the kid is old enough to make thier own decisions). If you show them how to make your family's value choices *amidst* the things you disagree with, that's truly showing them your moral compass and strength.

Now, I'm not saying you want to regularly take your kids to a seedy bar or anything, but when it's family members, or you're out in public, you're showing them how to love their neighbor AND stand strong in their values. Asking someone to not smoke or get drunk or curse a blue streak in front of your kids is totally reasonable (though an occasional drink or a slipped word might be an opportunity to show forgiveness to your kids). The dress, well, that's a little more hinky as modesty is a kind of objective thing - you can't halfway smoke or drink or curse, you're either doing it or not doing it - but modesty can be so many different things to so many different people.

AND, you have to be really careful about how you present this to your kids, lest they develop a holier than thou attitude. Keep it focused on YOUR family and what your family does or does not do, not on whatever the other people are doing (and/or what Godly implications might come to others).

Totally agree with this.


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## VillageMom6 (Dec 2, 2008)

I think you are getting advice from parents with two different sets of philosophies... those who agree with sheltering little ones and those who don't.

That's why I suggested you seek counsel from those you can be sure share *your* values, particularly your pastor.

The OP didn't ask whether she was doing the right thing in keeping her children away from smoking/drunkenness/cursing/immodesty. She wanted to hear that she was doing the right thing by sending the cease and desist letter.

It's interesting to me that while the responders take very different approaches to the shelter question, the advice has all been the same... don't send that letter. Even those of us who completely agree with the sheltering approach urge you to proceed in a different way.

I faced similar concerns within my family but we live hundreds of miles away, so that's an entirely different scenario. But it has taken a great deal of effort to protect my children from what I consider the cesspool of modern "civilization".

I'm sure there are those who would say that we lived in a cave during my children's early years. Oh well. The cave was warm and cozy and safe and happy. We would venture out and have good learning opportunities in manageable doses and then we would return to our sanctuary.









My oldest child is now 16 and been attending community college for a year. My 13 year old takes community ballet classes and participates in major productions with students from around the county. My 10 and 9 year olds play in a community soccer league.

So they are getting out there and learning to navigate the "real world" and doing well at it. We're giving them wings a little bit at a time, as they mature emotionally, spiritually, physically and mentally.

But they still haven't read Harry Potter, seen any vampire movies, listened to Miley Cyrus or had a boyfriend/girlfriend. But hey, these kids are alright!


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

I completely understand where you're coming from & feel that we're going to have similar problems down the line with my in-laws.

But I would not send the letter. I think a letter (vs. talking about this face to face) would be inappropriately formal & condescending. I think you need to have a frank discussion with them. I think it's acceptable to ask someone not to smoke & swear around your kids & many adults would respect that, though these are often ingrained subconscious habits that are hard to reign in. I think drinking & modestly dressing will be more difficult -- most don't want to be told how to dress & most wouldn't see anything wrong with a beer or wine with dinner (though getting drunk in front of kids, IMO, is a whole 'nother ball game). Obviously you're not going to be able to control your kids' environment 100% and I do think you need to be more realistic if you want your kids to have a relationship with their grandparents. I also think kids can understand that different families do things differently & you can still teach 'right & wrong' & morality despite what the outside world does. My whole life I was around people who did things my parents & I would consider immoral, but we used those things as an opportunity to discuss why some people act differently, what's appropriate, & why we believe what we believe.

I would also consider other ways to get together with them that will help reign in these behaviors. So, for example, your get-togethers could be at the zoo or something -- no smoking & drinking allowed there... I just don't know what else to tell you though, I think you are trying to control other people's actions when they don't directly affect you. Yes, they have an indirect effect on your impressionable children, but aside from the smoking (second-hand smoke) and any violent behaviors that result from too much drinking, the rest aren't things you really have ground to stand on since they don't directly affect you. Am I making any sense here? I'm not saying you should or shouldn't shelter your kids, I'm saying that it's going to be hard & most people won't take kindly to being told what to do when *in their mind* it has no direct effect on your kids.

You need to decide which is more important -- sheltering your kids or having a relationship with the grandparents -- or if there is some middle ground that you could meet on. A letter like this could permanently destroy your relationship with them, but if that's a risk you're willing to take, go for it. Otherwise, find other ways to communicate what you need from them & see if there's a compromise.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ErinYay* 
I'm with you on the smoking thing, but that's pretty much it. (We're fairly conservative Presbyterians.) Nowhere in the Bible does it say we have the right or obligation to control our environment; indeed, we're *meant* to be in a world that is not our own (Romans 12:1,) and to instill values in our kids in spite of it. We are to worry about our own homes only, and it is a sin to be angry about or attempt to control others' homes*.

Yes, this. I think what you're doing is more immoral than them smoking or drinking or wearing short dresses.

If I were the grandparents, I'd probably write off a relationship with you and your children just because I would be afraid constantly of "offending" you and having my chance to see my grandchildren stripped away. That kind of constant fear isn't good for any relationship. So, to answer your question, I don't think what you're doing is right.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I bought into the whole sheltering thing for a while. And I can still get it to an extent. andf I do still shelter my children a bit....But I think being exposed to such arbitrary judgmentalism and shunning of family members is far more dangerous than them being exposed to Grandpa/other family who love them while seeing you demonstrate a loving and generous, forgiving and graceful attitude towards people (which is how you should be approaching this). *Sometimes love is just more important* than our rules or trying to shelter our kids from everything. The question we have to ask ourselves is, in our effort to shelter our children from things we wish to keep them from and control their environments and thought are we also sheltering them from love, compassion, grace and are we inadvertently exposing them to legalism and judgment? After all, how will you know if you need to shelter your kids from someone if you don't stand in judgement of them according to a strict, arbitrary set of rules (you may think your rules are biblical but they are not) It is really hard not to cross that line which is why my children are no longer "sheltered" so much and yeah we deal with things a little more now but our ability to let go of our judgments and love others despite our differences has grown exponentially. I can even sit in a smoky bar now to show some love to a friend who needs it and meet a stranger where they are at. and I can do it with real joy. and a beer. I used to be way to uptight and judgmental for that and not only did I miss opportunities to love and be loved because of it (with a true Holy and Godly love despite the persons imperfections) but i was missing out on life. Life is so much richer now. And you know what. My kids are so much more awesome now. Not as well behaved but their motivation to love others and their ability to know how to do that, amazing. far beyond my abilities, glory to God. Ironically i was sheltering them because I thought if I controlled enough, followed the plan enough, constructed their childhood perfectly, kept them away from all the bad people with bad ideas and bad morals and bad hearts I could save them. but only God could save them and first he had to save them from me and the giant plank I was swinging around.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VillageMom6* 
The OP didn't ask whether she was doing the right thing in keeping her children away from smoking/drunkenness/cursing/immodesty. She wanted to hear that she was doing the right thing by sending the cease and desist letter.

It's interesting to me that while the responders take very different approaches to the shelter question, the advice has all been the same... *don't send that letter*

yes. I, too, find it interesting that pretty much everyone agrees on that point.


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## churndash (Mar 25, 2009)

I guess what bothers me about the letter is that you seem to be saying *"because we are Christian*, we don't approve of smoking, drinking, cursing and dressing immodestly around children."

Like -- do you think only Christians feel that way? That people who don't belong to your religion are okay with smoking, drinking, swearing and being naked in front of kids?

I am not Christian, and I can assure you, none of that stuff would be acceptable in my house either.

The difference is that I would use the secular reasoning of:

Smoking is unhealthy
Drunkenness often leads to poor judgment and unsafe situations
Cursing is rude
One should always dress appropriately for the occasion

The tone of your letter is very judgmental and I think that's what people are responding to. You are basically calling your in-laws immoral and not good enough for you and no matter how reasonable your requests may be, framed like that, they are not going to be met well.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

I haven't read the other replies so sorry if I'm making a point that has already been beaten to death.

One of the most important things I think parents can teach children is tolerance. I certainly don't want my child around smoking, drunkenness, and lewd behavior, either. I also don't want him telling others that they are bad if they smoke or have a beer. An important aspect of Christianity is not being judgmental, to cultivate compassion.

I've explained to ds about addiction, about how people have a hard time stopping smoking because of that. I've told him he doesn't need to tell people it's bad for them because they already know. Every time he pointed out someone smoking when he was younger, I remind him that that doesn't mean they aren't nice people and that it is incredibly hard for most people to stop smoking once they have started. But of course we don't allow smoking in our home and we don't stay in homes where people smoke because it isn't healthful.


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## happysmileylady (Feb 6, 2009)

To answer the question of are you doing the right thing....I don't believe you are, on a couple of fronts.

First, on trying to keep your children from every being exposed to any of that stuff...I question how it's possible to teach a child the right way to handle a particular issue, be it an immediate danger or a long term values issue, if the child is NEVER exposed to it. So, I don't think it's right or healthy to go to such great lengths to avoid exposing your children at all.

Second, I don't believe that those issues that you have listed, with the possible exception of the smoking around you and your DH who are asthmatic, are so dangerous to your children's physical, emotional, and mental health that they are worth basically cutting off contact with the childrens grandparents and other family members. I understand that you have stated that you are not trying to cut off contact, but gosh, that letter sure sounds like it. So I don't believe that you are right to basically deprive your children of those family relationships over such issues. Abuse, safety issues such as unlocked guns etc, yes, those I believe are the types of issues you deprive them of that relationship over. Occasional drinking, smelling of smoke, not so much.

Third, while I don't hold your same religious views, I don't believe that letter is right in that I don't believe that it fits in with how I understand Christian values and teachings to be. I was raised Catholic and while I consider myself agnostic now, I always understood teachings from the Bible to be of tolerance and welcoming the sinners etc.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Another vote for: Don't send the letter. It's harsh and judgmental and will in no way help them see the very real issues that you are responding to.

Why? First, some things need to be said in person. Putting them in a letter won't help.

Second, you have some very real concerns about the health and safety of your children, but those concerns are going to be dismissed because you are framing them in terms of your conservative Christian beliefs. If your in-laws dismiss your religion, they'll dismiss your very real concerns.

Your concerns that are shared by everyone here are:
Your FIL and SIL smoke and do so around your children.
Your FIL drinks to excess and becomes abusive and foul mouthed when he does so.

Things I think you probably can't control:
Smelling like smoke. Smokers smell like smoke. That's NOT second hand smoke.
Immodest dress. As several people have pointed out, standards for immodest dress are too vague to be enforced. Are you going to give your SIL a dress code?

How can you frame your concerns so that you are protecting your children but at the same time keeping the door open for a relationship?

How can you phrase this so that your words are expressing your concern for them and your children, rather than condemning them for not sharing your beliefs?


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

1. cigarette smoke or people/things that smell like smoke,
2. drinking
I'm the most convervative person I know, and I don't see either of those as religious things. Personal preferences, yes, but not "Christian" issues.


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## KristyDi (Jun 5, 2007)

Don't send that letter. It will do nothing but anger and hurt your ILs. It reads like you're saying, "We're more holy than you and your nasty habits are damaging our kids. Unless you change, you're not good enough to be around them." I know that's not what you mean to say, but that's how it will come across.

My siblings and I recently had to have a very difficult conversation with our parents. We agonized and cried and stressed about how to go about it. I was seriously worried we would cause a rift in our family. Finally we sought the advise of a Christian counselor. Best thing we could have done. Because she had training in dealing with people and relationships, she helped us frame our concerns in a way that communicated our points with the least amount of hurt possible. She was able to help us organize and prioritize our thoughts and decide what was most important to say and what could be left alone. She also prayed with and for us. When we left we felt prepared to talk to our parents respectfully, but honestly.

I really recommend you sit down with someone like that. My church has both a pastor who is a licensed counselor and another licensed psychologist. You could ask your pastor if s/he knows of anyone in your area.

It will probably cost some money, but I think preserving your childrens' relationship with their grandparents and your DH's with his parents would be worth it.

In our case, it wasn't a comfortable conversation and my dad was angry, but we were able to come out of it without damaging our relationship. We still don't agree on the issue and we kids are still worried. But they're adults and have to make their own decisions.


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## chiefmir (Apr 16, 2010)

I honestly think that sending that letter would be a horrible mistake, and would ultimately create a rift in the family that you would never be able to repair or recover from. Once something is put in writing, it can not be taken back. You could easily spend your entire life making sure that your kids are never exposed to any of the issues you wrote about-- but it WON'T work. They will still be exposed to it, AND have no way to think through the issues and to make responsible and self-aware decisions for themselves. Will your kids never go to a resturant that has an attached bar? or even a happy couple sharing a bottle of wine over dinner? Will they never go to camp or to a swimming class where kids wear immodest bathingsuits or tank tops? Instead, share with them what values YOUR family holds to, and WHY. because you are Christian is not a good enough explanation because it doesn't give them any real information to use later in understanding their own behavior and reasons for it. My DD just turned 5 (we are Jewish, and not very religious) and she knows that in our family, children don't wear bathingsuits that show their tummies (we feel like bikinis over sexualize young girls) but she is certainly around lots of girls her age who DO wear them, and neither she nor we have ever said a thing about it (except to maybe admire a suit that a little girl is excited to show us). NO ONE we know smokes, and it was only in the last few months that she asked us what a cigarette was when she began to notice some people on the sidewalk outside a resturant smoking. We just explained to her (in kid terms) what it wagrs and that it was a choice SOME grown ups made... although in our family it would never be a choice WE made because it was very dangerous for our bodies.

I think the more comfortable a family feels with their own values and beliefs, the less evangelical they are about them and the less they feel the need to control everyone else.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lucy&Jude'sMama* 
Personally I find it very extreme. I'm sure you will get mixed reviews about it here. I am not of your belief and that is why I find it extreme. I do understand all the rules and why you would want them in place. *However I very strongly believe against teaching children people are bad and going against god because they are differen than you or do not believe the same*. My bio dad was a religious fanatic (also drug addict and abuser) he beat me one day because I didn't want to wear a dress to church... I want to wear a nice pair of black pants and a long sleeve pink top... Very modest in my opinion and my moms (I didn't live with my dad) but because it wasn't a dress that went down to my knees I got beat for it. I wasn't even the same religion. He also use to tell me all my friends were going to hell because they were catholic. He was an extreme of course but I also grew up hearing other people say things that were a bit lighter but had the same meaning... These people are not like me and they do no believe like me and therefore these people are bad.

I know you are most likely set in your ways as most religious people I find are. I'm no against religion or belief, but coming from a kid who beard these things myself... Well it had the opposite effect (complete opposite) and it took me years to find my own beliefs and to even be able to walk into a church with out getting so angry I would cry at all the judgement and hate I heard around me.

Bottomline... These are your children and you have every right to raise them as you wish. If you make rules and people don't follow them or respect them you have every right to tell those people to step out of your lives. I may not agree with you but I do agree with this.

The bolded above really resonated with me. I'm not religious, and I went to college in a very religious town. It was really hard on me to have people tell me, literally, that they couldn't be my friend or date me b/c I wasn't Christian. If I knew you in real life you'd probably think I'm a slut b/c of the way I dress (which isn't entirely inappropriate, but not super modest either), and immoral b/c I don't go to church.

Do what you want, but only if you're prepared to essentially isolate your children b/c of your beliefs.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

I think the extremes to which you are willing to go are damaging to your children, and there is absolutely nothing to be gained (and a lot to be lost) by sending that letter. You say that you aren't trying to cut them out of your kids' lives, but that's exactly what you will accomplish. I agree with the others that your rules don't have anything to do with Christianity.

We are atheists, and we don't especially like any of those things, either, in particular smoking, as my mom died from lung cancer far too early. We try to limit our children's exposure to certain things in a reasonable manner. We don't have cable TV, and we limit their screen time, for example, because much of what's on TV is too violent or explicit for our tastes.

But we also recognize that our children live in this world. If I were that obsessive about our kids not hearing curse words, we couldn't leave the house. We couldn't go to the mall or the grocery store or even the playground.

My kids need to learn how to relate to people with different viewpoints and values. They need to learn tolerance. They need to understand how to love people who might be a little different from themselves. They need to understand why we value the things we do which is a great deal different that just being kept in a cocoon. At some point, your kids are going to have to make their own decisions about these things, and I think teaching your values is a whole lot more effective than keeping them locked away from the real world.

I can understand having house rules about drinking and smoking, and privately asking other adults to try to refrain from cursing in your house. But your parents can smoke or drink in their own home, and it is disrespectful and over the top for you to try to dictate how they behave there. And to try to tell another adult how to dress is beyond ridiculous.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Okay. How to put this?

I have very strong beliefs. I believe that religion is a critical part of a child's upbringing, be that atheism (lack of religion), Christianity, transcendentalism, or something else.

I respect very much that you are working to raise your children in the way you see fit.

The Bible says,

Quote:

12 Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.
It doesn't say, "If they're good Jews," or "If they honor the Lord." It's like, way up there. Just honor them. Period.

I read that you have asthma. But really... if that is the issue, can you not say, "Dad, we know you smoke. We know it's your habit and we can't change you, nor would we want to. We love you as you are. But we two have asthma and it really does hurt us to breathe the smoke and even the residue. Could we do X from now on? We wouldn't ask you if it wasn't a question of health."

Quote:

We want our children to be in a positive, Christian atmosphere. Our children are becoming more impressionable by the day, and we will take the necessary steps to protect their innocence and make sure they stay in that positive, Christian atmosphere.
Don't forget... Jesus was born in a manger to an unmarried woman, and some of his miracles were for prostitutes and thieves. I don't think he was any more sinful for all of that.









Quote:

Smokers smell like smoke. That's NOT second hand smoke.
Actually, it is the chemicals from the smoke, the heavier ones that stay on the clothes.

I agree with everyone else. *Don't send that letter.* Address the asthma question as you must, but don't make it into a Jesus thing. Jesus washed the feet of a bunch of ragtags from the freaking Roman empire. I mean, do you know how much horse poop was on the streets at that time, not to mention raw sewage? Yes, it stinks and is unhealthy, but so is washing someone's feet 2,000 years before the advent of anti-bacterial soap!!!!

Blech!


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

I think a letter (vs. talking about this face to face) would be inappropriately formal & condescending. I think you need to have a frank discussion with them.
Oh, and this. I mean, unless you want your letter to end up on passiveaggressivenotes.com or awkwardfamilyphotos.com or something. You owe it to flesh and blood to say it to their faces.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Yikes. I would not send that. If I got that letter I would be very worried about the mental health of the person who had sent it, honestly. It is very detached from people's feelings and the real world. I would worry that they had lost sight of reality and would wonder what kind of religious group that had gotten involved in. I mean there are lots of Christians responding in this thread and most all of them believe it's a poor choice.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Sorry to be posting on this thread so much...My reaction to your letter was so unsettling that it left me unable to say anything helpful.

But I wanted to offer you some suggestions on how to build a bridge while still protecting your kids.

First of all relax. Your children will not be corrupted nor will there innocence be dashed by hanging out with their family. a family God has chosen for them and given to them for their benefit even if you cannot see the wisdom in it. This is important. More important than leading them to believe there are only perfect people in the wold.

So concerning #1. Fine do not let your in laws smoke around your kids. and do not sit in the smoking sections of restaurants or in restaurants with smoking sections if it is really that big of a deal. But, there is no reason to pretend it does not exist or even that your parents don't do it. Be honest with your kids. "Yep, some people smoke. It is bad for their bodies and if we spend to much time breathing in the smoke it is bad for our bodies too. The people smoke outside because they are being thoughtful and kind to the people inside." Smoking does not make you a bad person or even a sinful one. Not everyone who smokes is addicted. Some of the holiest people I know smoke. And I stood in judgment of them for a long time. Lord have mercy on me. As for the yuck in their house (and I agree smoking inside is gross and makes everything gross) dress them in clothes that can get dirty and just suck it up. It will not kill them. I mean don't let them lick the coffee table and be sure they wash their hands before eating and stuff but it won't kill them to get dirty.

Drinking. There is nothing wrong with your children seeing an adult enjoy an adult beverage responsibly. I really think of alcohol on the same level as caffeine. However, you are well within your rights to not expose yourself or your children to drunken behavior. If someone starts getting out of hand just excuse yourself at that point and say it is time to go home. No need to make a big announcement why or make a huge moral judgment, just excuse yourself. I doubt your children will even notice until they are old enough to talk about the difference between drinking responsibly and making poor choices. At that time you just explain "some people occasionally drink too much. And it makes them sick. And they act weird. Grandpa was doing this. So we left and will come see him again when he gets better. It is hard to make good choices with alcohol sometimes. That is why we do not drink it at all. But having a little now and even making bad choices now and then does not make them a bad person or mean they love God too little."

Dressing immodestly, honestly I would not worry about what they see SIL wearing. I tell my kids "just because xyz dresses that way does not mean you can. We dress in such and such a way for these reasons but they are our reasons and ours alone." Same with swearing. Language and what is a swear word and what is not is rather arbitrary and changes over time. Even inside different cultures inside the united states and in different English speaking countries which words are considered ugly, foul, vulgar or cuss words varies greatly. I focus with my children on their attitudes behind all words. Honestly I would rather my children say "i stepped in a pile of shit" matter of factly than hear them call someone "doodoo". When my children say words that I consider unacceptable I remind them that some people consider that a bad word and we do not say that in our family. And then remind them of the consequences if they do not obey that rule.

How close do you live to them? Maybe make visits faster and more often. Stop in just to say hi. Bring over a loaf of banana bread "can't stay long but wanted to stop in and drop this off. Chat for 15 to 30 minutes and then leave. No one has had time to get drunk or maybe even light up. if the visits are short and often they may be willing to go to the park with you or go out to a restaurant But you are going to have to be flexible and show a little love. if they want to walk off a ways or go outside and have a smoke you are going to have to deal gracefully with that. Be sure and thank them for every little indigence and consideration. They are doing you a favor by going off to smoke even if it is not the fullness of what you want. You need to let the kids hug them and kiss them (I think God is big enough to protect them from a few seconds of exposure, I think he is big enough to protect them from a lot of the things you worry about and I think you are a good enough mother that you can teach them your ways without condemning and judging others . And I think you can shelter your children without teaching that everyone different from you is bad.) Let them sit on their laps and have a good time. Worry about the big things (cigarettes close to their face, drunkenness, lewd sexual behavior) and let the little things go (residue on their clothes and couch, an adult having a beer or glass of wine, a little too much cleavage or knee showing).


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Only had time to read the first page so far. Sorry, I can't tell you that you are doing the right thing - I absolutely disagree with the tone of your first post, even though in theory I agree with you on a fair bit of it.

I don't smoke - have never even tried it. My dad smoked a pack or two a day for the first 12 years of my life - in the house, in the car. My grandparents, my uncle, many of my friends' parents smoked around us during childhood. It was more common then but still.

I rarely drink - maybe one day a month? Never been hungover in my life. My parents both drank at home and socially all during my childhood though to be fair I don't think I ever saw them drunk.

I ADORED my parents (they have both passed away). I shiver to think of all the second hand smoke my siblings and I inhaled as kids - but they didn't know better then.

So you avoid as much smoking/drunkenness as possible with your kids and your in-laws. But to cut their access to their grandkids because their shirt might smell smoky or they are having a beer is inappropriate and unfair - and I would go so far as to say not very Christian of you.

I just don't think that someone else wearing a short shirt or drinking a margarita or even light swearing is in any way harmful to your kids. You are the parents; you are the role models. You can explain your values to them. But what happens if you keep their world so small (which it will be if you won't allow them around all the things you mention in the first post) that they go off to college and go crazy? What if that forbidden fruit - that was SO terrible as to not even be viewed, is too tempting? They never got a chance to see Gramma coughing or Uncle without his prized Mustang 'cause he drove too fast and wrecked it. There are natural consequences that made me think when I saw them as a kid and teen.

I would consider easing WAY up, and really thinking about whether restricting important and loving relationships over bad habits is worth it. I don't think it is.


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## VillageMom6 (Dec 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom* 
I think the extremes to which you are willing to go are damaging to your children... your rules don't have anything to do with Christianity... We are atheists...

With all due respect, I acknowledge your right to your views but if I was the OP I would not give them any weight. I'm not interested in hearing Christian parenting advice from an atheist, especially one who says that my approach is damaging to my children.

The OP didn't ask whether her _world view_ was right or wrong or helpful or damaging. She asked whether it was right to send the letter.

Quote:

I question how it's possible to teach a child the right way to handle a particular issue... if the child is NEVER exposed to it.
This is a false dichotomy that sheltering parents are always hearing. The OP does not want her little ones to spend large chunks of time with family members who live an unwholesome (in her view) lifestyle. She doesn't want her children to grow up thinking that drinking, cursing and bare bellies are an acceptable norm.

But don't worry that the children will _never_ be exposed to all sorts of stuff. It is impossible to avoid. The OP will have many teaching opportunities to point out situations that are not consistent with their values *and* to teach compassion and tolerance for other _people_, if not their actions.

OP, COME BACK and keep dialoguing with us! This is a delicate situation and we're all interested in how it can be resolved.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VillageMom6* 
With all due respect, I acknowledge your right to your views but if I was the OP I would not give them any weight. I'm not interested in hearing Christian parenting advice from an atheist, especially one who says that my approach is damaging to my children.

I guess I missed where this was the fundamentalist Christian parenting forum.









Advice is offered by all sorts of people, with all sorts of religious backgrounds here. The issue is extreme control, it's not religion.


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## buttercup784ever (Aug 22, 2008)

OP, as an atheist I don't agree with your stance, but you can run your household however you see fit. I would not send that letter only because I think you may get more out of a face to face talk than trying to get what you mean across in a letter.

For instance, I have no idea what you mean when you say 'dress modestly'. Immodest could mean anything from a V neck shirt with short sleeves to a fish net blouse. From shorts to skin tight lycra pants. What you consider immodest and what someone else considers immodest could be very different. Do you plan on sending a dress code with this letter? It sounds ridiculous, but that's what you would have to do to have anyone understand what you mean.

I don't feel your values are so divergent from mine either. I don't want my kids around smoke or drunk people. If we go to a family event where this type of behavior is going on, we limit the time we spend there. My husband and I have never been drunk in front of our kids although we sometimes have a glass of wine or a beer. I really don't feel like this is a 'Christian' choice, as much as a grounded parenting choice to shield your kids from some adults chaotic behavior.

If you want to protect your kids from this, than protect them. I think it crosses the line to make someone else promise to not smoke, drink, curse, etc. BEFOREHAND. If you arrive to an event and someone is drinking, but is not drunk, how would you feel about that? Could you stay and observe the people drinking than if you notice that it's getting out of hand...leave? If someone is cursing around the kids, could you ask them to please stop doing it, and if they don't...leave? Not in an angry "I've had enough" way, but just "oh well time to go" way.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom* 
I guess I missed where this was the fundamentalist Christian parenting forum.









Advice is offered by all sorts of people, with all sorts of religious backgrounds here. The issue is extreme control, it's not religion.

agreed. Maybe this should have been posted in spirituality/religious studies (and then titled specifically if the OP only wanted the viewpoint of those who believe in her god). But, really - even Christians are saying these issues aren't related to religion. I thought Christians were supposed to be loving and open to all without judgment, anyway.


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## VillageMom6 (Dec 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom* 
I guess I missed where this was the fundamentalist Christian parenting forum.









Hee! If it is, then I don't belong here, either!

I've got no problem with people of various belief systems chiming in about whether the OP should send a letter to her family. But I don't understand it when someone who does not share the OP's basic world view argues that her world view is _damaging_.

How can someone who isn't even a Christian tell a Christian how to be a Christian? (Insert any belief system in place of Christian, if you'd like.) I wouldn't tell another mother, "That's not very Jewish of you". What do I know about the intricacies of Jewish parenting?

Quote:

I thought Christians were supposed to be loving and open to all without judgment, anyway.
There's a lot more to it than that. Love the sinner, hate the sin. "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea."

We are to avoid judging the state of someone's soul... whether they are headed to heaven or hell... but we can, indeed we must, judge the goodness and fruitfulness of a person's actions.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I grew up in a very fundamentalist environment (SBC, but they were too liberal so the church broke away from them to become independent--later fell in with the IBLP). Women who did not headcover and wear ankle length skirt or dresses were not only immodest, but were responsible for the sinful thoughts of the men around them. Baptists are teetotalers anyway. I don't really recall much in the way of smoking instruction either way; but I can't recall anyone except for my dad and grandpa (who decided to quit on their own and neither of whom is/was all that religious) smoking around me.

While I am glad that I found my way to a gentler branch of the Christian faith with minimal scars, I do know families and people who seem to thrive in that environment. And beyond that, those who feel supportive with a high degree of unmoving structure, and that allows them to do the very difficult thing of loving people as Jesus called us to. I am all for allowing very young children to grow up with as little worry or damage as possible. But the emphasis on "innocence" kind of worries me (perhaps because of it being a trigger word for so many things in my background), in conjunction of "good Christian upbringing." If I may be blunt here--Jesus promised suffering and division in this life because of following his teachings. Historically that's certainly true. It's very difficult to be called to a faith that preaches *sacrificial loving*. To me, that means that yes, while they are tiny CERTAINLY children should be ideally in a protected and as healthful as possible environment. But honestly, as they start reachng the ages (and it happens so, so soon...much earlier than most of our modern sensibilities want to recognize) where they can absorb real teachings of faith--I believe that means that they need to learn how to deal with the whole of the faith. Those who are not given the whole of the faith tend to find it ringing hollow.

And part of being a Christian is recognizing that Jesus loved whores, diseased people, soldiers of the invading army, apostates, bureaucrats, his oppressors. When Peter hurt a soldier that was coming to take him to torture and death, Jesus healed the soldier and rebuked his "good" servant for trying to protect him from it.

I don't think honoring one's parents means obey or agree. After all parents are admonished not to anger their children by treating them unjustly as well.

But I think as Christian parents who have very modern sensibilities (and a certain amount of entitlement/spoiledness ourselves) we have to be VERY VERY careful when we pull out the "protecting innocence" bit. Is it really protecting our children? Or is it protecing ourselves from discomfort? When we teach our children (eventually) that to accept the Christian faith means that we also accept that we may be persecuted and suffer for our beliefs, and that we need to push past our discomfort to try to love people like Jesus did--how will they interpret "Well, honey, we decided that you couldn't have a relationship with your Auntie because we didn't like the shirts she wears, and we didn't want you to ask us for clothes like that."?

I think it is reasonable to not make visits to their home from a health standpoint. But I agree with others that I would really really really try to maintain a relationship with them--at your home. If they choose not to come because they are stubborn, then that is their choice. But I believe that it is a good policy to keep the door open for them. If your children live the principals that Jesus taught, then eventually they will love and embrace people who do far worse things than wear offensive clothing and smoke and drink and use crude language. What better way to practice that even though you will live in accord with your family's values, you can also open your heart and arms to others than with people who already love them?

Just some food for thought.

I can tell that you really want to do the right thing. But I can't tell you that you are doing the right thing; because from one Christian to another, I think that you are probably doing a wrong thing with good intent.


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## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

Your title says it all "Tell me I'm doing the right thing" - you really, really, really want someone to tell you they think it is right for you to send the letter. Ok, so here goes - you're doing the right thing by sending the letter. Do you feel better now?

Frankly, if I were related to you, I'd want you to send that letter to me. No matter how hurt, offended and shocked I would be at first. Because then I would know who you really are.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

I found the OP's words to be rather offensive. The whole post has an attitude of being better than everyone else, maybe she didn't realize this? Though I agree with not having one's kids around obvious health damaging things like cigarettes, I think there is a better way to coexist with smokers,drinkers,etc. I know some fantastic people that curse,lol. Don't shut out the world just yet OP!


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## Xerxella (Feb 6, 2008)

OK. Becca, I've written posts before where everyone told me I was wrong and it wasn't what I wanted to hear, let me tell you! But, as one of the posters had said, I did ask and I must have been questioning myself at least a little to have asked at all.

So, take what you've heard here and take most of it to heart.

Good luck and maybe we can all try to be kind to Becca. We all are trying to find our way through this crazy world of parenting and do the best we possibly can for our kids.








Big group hug to you. I'll keep you in my prayers.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllisonR* 
Your title says it all "Tell me I'm doing the right thing" - you really, really, really want someone to tell you they think it is right for you to send the letter. Ok, so here goes - you're doing the right thing by sending the letter. Do you feel better now?

Frankly, if I were related to you, I'd want you to send that letter to me. No matter how hurt, offended and shocked I would be at first. Because then I would know who you really are.

This. I would gladly cut YOU out of my life and my children's lives if you sent me this letter. I hope you aren't one of my relatives. You wouldn't have to cut me out, I'd gladly do it for you.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Xerxella* 
Good luck and maybe we can all try to be kind to Becca. We all are trying to find our way through this crazy world of parenting and do the best we possibly can for our kids.

agreed.










Many of us have either said things that we felt strongly and yet only made the situation worse, or had to fight the temptation to do so.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

To be honest, I think if you'd phrased this as "FIL/SIL are disrespectful of our parenting choices, and continue to smoke, drink and curse in front of the kids despite being repeatedly told not to", most of MDC would happily label them "toxic" and tell you to cut them out of your life.









And that's the approach you should take, if any. Leave the name-dropping of Christ out of it, for His sake and yours. It's not a "Christian" issue to worry about your child's lungs; it's not a "Christian" quirk not to want your impressionable kiddos to hear cursing, or to have them around a drunk FIL. Those are issues of basic respect and boundaries. _You_ may be against them because you're Christian, but your in-laws will probably take any requests in a better spirit if you don't advertise that fact.









And two of the issues I wouldn't bring up at all. Drinking is one. I cringed a bit when I saw "drinking/drunkenness" labelled as the same thing - I may be misinterpreting, but if you expect your in-laws to refrain from non-drunken drinking I think you're stepping way beyond Biblical mandates, not to mention politeness. (Of course, some people are unable to drink without getting drunk...) There is NOTHING in the Bible that implies your children would be damaged by seeing an adult having a glass of wine with dinner, or a bottle of whiskey on the pantry shelf.

Immodest dress is the other thing. It's subjective, and it's something your kids will be exposed to every time they set foot out of the house. To be honest, while I want DD to dress modestly when she's of an age where it's an issue, I'd rather she knew some women who dressed less modestly so she'll be less likely to demonise them as Sinful Streetwalkers. Heck, among fairly run-of-the-mill Christians you'll find women whose definition of modest ranges from ankle-length dirndls to short shorts.

If you have strong theological objections to my last few paragraphs _and_ feel the need to enforce those boundaries with your inlaws, _and_ feel the need to identify that enforcement with your religious beliefs, then all I ask is that you make it clear they are specific to your denomination. Not "because we're Christians" but "because we're Southern Baptists" (or whatever). And yes, I do try to return the courtesy with my own theological quirks.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smokering* 
To be honest, I think if you'd phrased this as "FIL/SIL are disrespectful of our parenting choices, and continue to smoke, drink and curse in front of the kids despite being repeatedly told not to", most of MDC would happily label them "toxic" and tell you to cut them out of your life.









And that's the approach you should take, if any. Leave the name-dropping of Christ out of it, for His sake and yours. It's not a "Christian" issue to worry about your child's lungs; it's not a "Christian" quirk not to want your impressionable kiddos to hear cursing, or to have them around a drunk FIL. Those are issues of basic respect and boundaries.


WOW - yes. So simply put, so spot on!


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## CrystalCloud (May 14, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smokering* 
To be honest, I think if you'd phrased this as "FIL/SIL are disrespectful of our parenting choices, and continue to smoke, drink and curse in front of the kids despite being repeatedly told not to", most of MDC would happily label them "toxic" and tell you to cut them out of your life.









And that's the approach you should take, if any. Leave the name-dropping of Christ out of it, for His sake and yours. It's not a "Christian" issue to worry about your child's lungs; it's not a "Christian" quirk not to want your impressionable kiddos to hear cursing, or to have them around a drunk FIL. Those are issues of basic respect and boundaries. _You_ may be against them because you're Christian, but your in-laws will probably take any requests in a better spirit if you don't advertise that fact.









And two of the issues I wouldn't bring up at all. Drinking is one. I cringed a bit when I saw "drinking/drunkenness" labelled as the same thing - I may be misinterpreting, but if you expect your in-laws to refrain from non-drunken drinking I think you're stepping way beyond Biblical mandates, not to mention politeness. (Of course, some people are unable to drink without getting drunk...) There is NOTHING in the Bible that implies your children would be damaged by seeing an adult having a glass of wine with dinner, or a bottle of whiskey on the pantry shelf.

Immodest dress is the other thing. It's subjective, and it's something your kids will be exposed to every time they set foot out of the house. To be honest, while I want DD to dress modestly when she's of an age where it's an issue, I'd rather she knew some women who dressed less modestly so she'll be less likely to demonise them as Sinful Streetwalkers. Heck, among fairly run-of-the-mill Christians you'll find women whose definition of modest ranges from ankle-length dirndls to short shorts.

If you have strong theological objections to my last few paragraphs _and_ feel the need to enforce those boundaries with your inlaws, _and_ feel the need to identify that enforcement with your religious beliefs, then all I ask is that you make it clear they are specific to your denomination. Not "because we're Christians" but "because we're Southern Baptists" (or whatever). And yes, I do try to return the courtesy with my own theological quirks.









THIS... There will be things that you cannot shield your children from and this is where you'll have to teach your children what is right and wrong.

Edited to add that I also do not think it's appropriate to write a letter. I understand that you're in a difficult situation but you also have to learn to pick your battles (i.e. the smoking is one but dressing or lack of is not worth it) with your in-laws. Sheltering and controlling is unhealthy from the child's stand point and I speak from mine and DH's sheltered childhood.


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## mommaof3boz (Feb 15, 2006)

Where is the OP? Curious if letter is going or not?


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## JudiAU (Jun 29, 2008)

I think that your general rules are reasonable, especially in light of your asthma, but that your family is equally important. If FIL smokes, meet him at the park or ask him to come to your home. Language is difficult and harder to control, but can be addressed at home and in private if words/language/themese are used that are better left unsaid. You don't need to draw attention to immodest clothing. You can talk about appropriate clothing when you purchase it or dress dolls and your children ask questions.

The rules outlined above seem like you really want to draw a line and set up barriers around Dh's family. You can see these as "Christian" issues but I don't really think of them that way. I have many Christian families members who don't do 1-2-3-4 and it doesn't prevent them from maintaining relationships with those who do.


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