# Spinoff: Would you distance yourself from (or disown) your child for circumcising?



## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

This is a spinoff from the thread about talking to your daughter about cut men. Well, the thread title says it all - would you distance yourself, or even disown, a child of yours for circumcising?

I'll post my opinion when I'm not on my way to bed


----------



## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

My children have my unconditional love.


----------



## KsMum (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
My children have my unconditional love.

I totally agree, but I remain friends with people who circ, so yours is a very easy question for me.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
My children have my unconditional love.

ITA.


----------



## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

I do hope that I raise my children so that they would never ever abuse their children.

The possibility that my children would start to mutilate their own children is quite impossible to even imagine, since both FGM and MGM are not done here.

Ofcourse I love my children , and I would never disown them or stop loving them.


----------



## 2crazykids (Jun 19, 2005)

Oh gawd! It would tear my heart out...but of course my love is unconditional.


----------



## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Yeah, it's kind of a weird question to me. When you've mass-murdered your way across a continent, your momma is supposed to come visit you on death row.







I wouldn't stop loving my kids, it's not a button I turn on & off.

I'd be angry (& oh, would I express it) & disappointed, but I would continue to be there (who is there for you when you are contrite that you didn't listen to your mama & made a huge mistake with lasting repercussions? Mama!







By 20 I've got this part down pat, & hardly ever say 'I told you so'. Well, more than once.)


----------



## My*Scorpio (Aug 15, 2006)

It would really make me wonder, since right now I only have one dc and he's an intact male.


----------



## Cherries10700 (Aug 9, 2006)

I would be very upset, but my love is forever.


----------



## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Honestly, I don't know how I would feel. If my son or daughter grew up to be the kind of person who could cut their baby's genitals, I'm not sure if I could get over it. I think it would hurt so deeply I'm not sure I could recover, and I know for sure I'd never feel the same way again. I might still love them and want to be a part of their lives, but it would be tough.


----------



## frenchie (Mar 21, 2006)

Absolutely NOT!!! My love for my child is unconditional.


----------



## JJsMomma (Oct 10, 2006)

No way. When I decided to have children it was forever and no conditions were put on that.


----------



## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

No, I would not disown my child for making a decision they felt in their heart was the best course of action for their child and though I would disagree with it, I would still love and honor their decisions, which are personal and none of my business.


----------



## Telle Bear (Jul 28, 2006)

It would sadden me , however I do hope that when the time comes they do their OWN research on the topic, and voice their own opinions. I only have a son (right now) and I would be more disappointed to hear him say " I won't cut my son because I want him to look like me".

My MIL and I had this talk once because she has been disappointed in a lot of things her children were doing and she felt like a failure. My reply...no actually you raised independent thinking childen, you are a huge success.


----------



## My_Three_Sons (Nov 4, 2006)

No, I wouldn't do either. I would not be able to keep quiet about it, of course.

My ds's are intact, however, so is dh, and if my ds's find a partner in life she would have to accept their wholeness, so it's hard to imagine them deciding to circumcize a child.


----------



## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Tricia, or your ds' new love interest might be able to convince him to be circéd as an adult, ya never know.


----------



## My_Three_Sons (Nov 4, 2006)

True! At least it would be his choice though, so I would have to respect that, just like if he decided to get a nose job or calf implants.

I really believe RIC will be illegal though, in Canada anyway, by the time my ds's are procreating.


----------



## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 
I would still love and honor their decisions, which are personal and none of my business.

I'd love & honor THEM, but I fart in the general direction of any decision to genitally mutilate a child! It's not 'personal'; the child's _genitals_ are personal. To the owner.

The rhetoric of 'it's a personal decision' galls the living hell out of me. Horsefeathers, I say. You can't even 'decide' whether your kid will eat their bowl of farina in the morning, how do you have the right to decide to cut off part of their genitals?


----------



## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

I'd love my children unconditionally, but that being said I could never sit by and approve of them abusing their children. And circ is abuse. So yes, there would be some ramifications to our relationship if they were mistreating their children in any way.


----------



## MonicaS (Oct 27, 2002)

If my DDs choose to do that to their children, I would be flabbergasted. They will grow up KNOWING that it is wrong and harmful(The older 2 already know about it.), so I just can't imagine it. I can think of 100 mistakes I would rather watch them make than that one. I would feel crestfallen and dejected, but I could never disown my children.

ETA:

Quote:

I'd love my children unconditionally, but that being said I could never sit by and approve of them abusing their children. And circ is abuse. So yes, there would be some ramifications to our relationship if they were mistreating their children in any way.
I agree w/ this. Child abuse is something I couldn't sit back and watch my children do to my grandchildren, and I do view this as legalized child abuse.


----------



## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

Speaking as a disowned child, OF COURSE I could NEVER inflict such hurt on my child! I hope they make the right decisions, especially when itcomes to other people's genitals (where it isn't really making a decision, but respecting the right of the owner of the genitals to make the decision), and they will definitely know I strongly disapprove, but I cannot imagine ever being that hurtful to my children.

A parent's love and affection is a birthright. Nothing should be able to negate that.


----------



## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

I'm confused with all of these replies saying "My love is unconditional"

My question had nothing to do with how much you love your children or if you'd stop loving them.

I'd ask if you'd distance yourself from them. You can still love someone you distance yourself from.

Honestly, while I would still love them, I'd never look at them the same way again and I would lose all respect I have for them because I know they would be well educated on the subject. And that's how I feel about anyone who is educated and chooses to do it. Because they KNOW what they're doing is cosmetic and doesn't benefit the baby, it benefits THEM. And doing something surgically to your kids because you think it's aesthetically pleasing is horrible. And not something I'd respect you for.

I would still love them and see them and visit with the kids, but all those nice parent things you do for your children when they have kids? I'd never do them. Those are reserved for someone I respect, not someone who hacked off a piece of someone else's body because of THEIR sexual preferences. And I won't lie, I'd leave them significantly less in my will than I'd originally planned. I'd donate it to NOCIRC or DOC and I'd leave in the will exactly why.

And just out of idle curiousity, I wonder if these answers would be the same if I asked "Would you distance/disown your child for circumcising your granddaughter". I'm hoping not.


----------



## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Just wondering, seriously wondering here....what if anything could your child do to undermine your unconditional love? Speaking to anyone who wants to answer here.

Personally, I can think of any number of things that my children could do that would seriously affect the way I feel towards them. For example, if my child murdered someone, or became something horrible like a drug dealer or terrorist, or became abusive towards a partner, or a child molester, or raped someone, or sexually molested their sibling....at that point, I'm fairly certain I can say that my love would no longer be unconditional. I could easily see cutting such a person out of my life if it was clear to me that s/he was not capable of repentence and reform.

Say you're the mother of the son who recently killed his father and stashed him in the trunk of a car -- you really think you're still going to love and support your child unconditionally at that point? If so, you're a much bigger and stronger person than I am.

And bringing it back on topic....say your child marries someone from a cultural tradition that insists on FGM, and takes your granddaughter out of the country to be circed. Still feel the same way? Unconditional love and support?

My love for my children now is unconditional, but at some point children become moral actors who have responsibility for the consequences of their own decisions, and sometimes the consequences of those decisions affect the feelings of the people closest to them.


----------



## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fi.* 
I'm confused with all of these replies saying "My love is unconditional"

My question had nothing to do with how much you love your children or if you'd stop loving them.

I'd ask if you'd distance yourself from them. You can still love someone you distance yourself from.

I answered your question. I believe that a necessary component of parental love is affection. I believe that real love is a two-way thing. My parents insist they still love me, but they limit contact severely and insult me, my marriage and my family whenever there is contact. That is not love. That is manipulation. To say you love someone but to withold affection because they made a bad (wrong, evil, whatever) choice is to turn that being a loving relationship into being a coercive and/or manipulative relationship. And ultimately, in many cases, it becomes a non-existant relationship.

I'm sorry if this is too blunt or too off topic, but trust me, I know what I'm talking about here.


----------



## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 
No, I would not disown my child for making a decision they felt in their heart was the best course of action for their child and though I would disagree with it, I would still love and honor their decisions, which are personal and none of my business.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 
I'd love & honor THEM, but I fart in the general direction of any decision to genitally mutilate a child! It's not 'personal'; the child's _genitals_ are personal. To the owner.

The rhetoric of 'it's a personal decision' galls the living hell out of me. Horsefeathers, I say. You can't even 'decide' whether your kid will eat their bowl of farina in the morning, how do you have the right to decide to cut off part of their genitals?

Thank you, TigerTail, for making this important distinction!

I will always _love_ my son, but if he abuses his children I will loose a great deal-if not all-_respect_ for him. I'd feel the same way if he took a kitchen shears to his daughter's labia.

Jen


----------



## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

I might have to emotionally distance myself for a period of time while I grieved for what my grandchild lost, but I would try to understand the decision so that I could heal that rift that I'd feel. I'd never disown my child for any decision, and my love for my child is absolutely unconditional. Even if my child became a "monster." I've had to think about this a lot, considering the things that people in my family have done to me and others - often at least in part due to severe mental illness. My children may also end up mentally ill, and I had to come to terms with the possibilities that they would commit the same atrocious acts as others in my family have. I wouldn't have given birth if I didn't know that I would love my children no matter what they did.


----------



## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

And being an old AlAnon 12 stepper, I also know that I can distance myself from someone's abusive actions if necessary & still not stop loving them. It was the 'disown' part I suppose I was answering more- sometimes distance is necessary.

If my child grew up to steal from me, I'd put physical distance there & protect my own interests- I've no desire to allow abuse; but I wouldn't stop loving them or hoping they had a moral turn-around.

I'd do what I legally could do to protect my grandchildren. And I'd be the consoling arms if they were not strong enough to oppose a mutilating partner, & needed to cry their regrets.


----------



## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

Of course your post has a lot of wisdom, TT, I'm just not sure how it translates to the circ context. I guess I would certainly not be emotionally available to my daughter during labor/birth/PP if she intended to circ her son--I'd really be more concerned with preventing the circ from occuring than with supporting her. But on a long-term level, I'm not sure how distancing oneself (other than refusing to support the circ) would be helpful, or even what formit would take?

If my DD is stealing from me, then distance, or meeting places other than my home, or other measures would be justified, but with circ--well, once it is done, sadly, it is done.







:


----------



## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Yeah, it was not a perfect analogy (I seem to be doing that lot these days!)

I hope it is never something I need to pursue my feelings about.


----------



## smeep (May 12, 2006)

I would be incredibly disappointed in my children if they circumcised their children. Very, very disappointed and surely very, very saddened. But I wouldn't distance myself from my child, they're still my child regardless of the bad choices they make, and that would be my grandchild and I wouldn't want to lose either.


----------



## smeep (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pdx.mothernurture* 
I will always _love_ my son, but if he abuses his children I will loose a great deal-if not all-_respect_ for him. I'd feel the same way if he took a kitchen shears to his daughter's labia.









:


----------



## nandodianenicole (May 31, 2006)

I wouldn't disown him, but I would be pretty upset if it was for no good reason, like his wife wanted him to or something like that. They would both hear it from me then!!! Hopefully, I will educate my son enough to love his body the way it is. And I would try to research more treatments if it were a medical issue, but ultimatly, it is all about what kind of situation he is in at the time.


----------



## nandodianenicole (May 31, 2006)

Oh, I just understood. I thought this post was about my son being circ'd later in life--
Gotcha, I would be very upset if he decided to circ his son, yes. But couldnt disown my own child.


----------



## JJsMomma (Oct 10, 2006)

Ok, well besides unconditional love, I would never distance myself from my child and probably wouldn't even discuss the decision with him. Once he's an adult he's free to make his own choices and learn from them. I can only do so much educating after that, it's his call.

Our relationship would remain the same.


----------



## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

I would be seriously disturbed if any child of mine was being abusive to my grandchildren in any way. I consider MGM a gross abuse of a child and would treat it no differently than if I found out he/she was engaged in other types of physical or mental abuse w/ my grandkids.

I can't imagine that any child of mine would ever circ my grandsons, but it certainly would be _quite destructive_ to our overall relationship if it did happen.


----------



## falcon (Jul 8, 2004)

That would just break my heart if my son grew up and abused my grandbabies in any way (_and circ is definitely abuse_)














I'm not worried he'd ever do that though!


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fi.* 
I would still love them and see them and visit with the kids, but all those nice parent things you do for your children when they have kids? I'd never do them. Those are reserved for someone I respect, not someone who hacked off a piece of someone else's body because of THEIR sexual preferences. And I won't lie, I'd leave them significantly less in my will than I'd originally planned.


----------



## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:

tie-dyed: *If my DD is stealing from me, then distance, or meeting places other than my home, or other measures would be justified,* but with circ--well, once it is done, sadly, it is done.
_
Stealing_ from _you_ warrants your distance, but stealing from your grandchildren does not???







:


----------



## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kldliam* 
_
Stealing_ from _you_ warrants your distance, but stealing from your grandchildren does not???







:

No, not at all. What gave you that impression?

I was not talking about which offense is worse but about which offense I can prevent from recurring by taking action.

Please re-read my posts carefully before attacking me further, since you clearly read them too quickly the first time and missed the gist of what was said.


----------



## Greeneyes0506 (Aug 31, 2006)

.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I am so disturbed by some of these responses. This is parental love expressed very conditionally. It is controlling. Yes, you think it's valid because in your opinion the issue is so serious, but parents do this kind of thing about issues they think are serious all the time. And the pain it causes the children is so real and so deep nothing can touch or heal it.

It's so ironic, because the people who say they would treat their children this way profess to be interested in protecting the wholeness of their grandbabies' genitals. But I believe our children's spirits are at least as important. Parents wield a lot of power, and the willingness to cut off your children or punish them with distance over *anything* will be something they will be able to feel as a possibility energetically IMO. And it will harm them, whether you actually do it or not.

This thread makes me want to







:


----------



## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

I would have a very hard time dealing with the fact they would choose to do something so horrific. But I would love them just the same


----------



## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
But I believe our children's spirits are at least as important. Parents wield a lot of power, and the willingness to cut off your children or punish them with distance over *anything* will be something they will be able to feel as a possibility energetically IMO. And it will harm them, whether you actually do it or not.

I'm not sure putting distance between someone who you feel has hurt you, and believe me if my child mutilated my grandchild it would hurt me, is necessarily done to "punish." Sometimes someone can hurt you so badly that it is just to painful to be around them. The distance may not necessarily punitive.

As far as what I would do, I can honeslty say I have absolutely no earthly idea. I cannot even fathom my child doing that. I actually saw the other thread about FGM before this one, and I had a visceral reaction just trying to imagine it, my blood pressure went up and my heart started pounding hard. I would hate to think of how I might react if it were not just a hypothetical.

ETA - I just wanted to make it clear that I would never ever "disown" my child for anything, no matter how bad. However, I can't say that there would never be cicumstances where I may need to distance myself though.


----------



## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 
When you've mass-murdered your way across a continent, your momma is supposed to come visit you on death row.


----------



## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

When I say 'unconditional', I mean 'unconditional'. God willing I never have to find out.


----------



## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fi.* 
I'm confused with all of these replies saying "My love is unconditional"

My question had nothing to do with how much you love your children or if you'd stop loving them.

I'd ask if you'd distance yourself from them. You can still love someone you distance yourself from.
.


"Disown" to me is synonymous with "conditional love."

(Guess I lived through too many threatened-disownings from my own parents to feel any differently.)

So no, because I love them unconditionally, I would not disown them for anything.


----------



## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 







God willing I never have to find out.

You and me both, sister, you and me both.


----------



## JJsMomma (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greeneyes0506* 
I would be heartbroken. I think I wouldn't be able to speak to them very often if at all. And I wouldn't leave them any money. I plan to educate them so it won't be an issue.


I think if you're so quick to ditch your offspring over a decision they make that you don't agree with, you don't deserve to have children. These are the children that you created and you can only educate them so much before they need to venture out and make their own mistakes to learn from. My thinking is that if your child knows your presence in their life in conditional, your grandkids will be circ'd faster than you can say "Shmagma". :yes


----------



## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky* 
Just wondering, seriously wondering here....what if anything could your child do to undermine your unconditional love? Speaking to anyone who wants to answer here.

.


My children have a book I read to them titled, "I'll always love you, no matter what." And they know I mean it.

No one else in my life--siblings, parents, spouse, friends, etc. -- no one else has this carte blanche that my children have. Everyone else I love somewhat conditionally (even my dh, whom I try to love mostly unconditionally). But I brought my children into the world, and that relationship is unique.

Of course, they're 4 and 9, so I have plenty of time to test my theory.









But I'll never forget when my brother got a girl pregnant out of wedlock, and my mom told me that she just didn't love my brother in the same way anymore. I don't want to be that kind of parent.


----------



## JJsMomma (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
No one else in my life--siblings, parents, spouse, friends, etc. -- no one else has this carte blanche that my children have. Everyone else I love somewhat conditionally (even my dh, whom I try to love mostly unconditionally). But I brought my children into the world, and that relationship is unique.

You said that beautifully.


----------



## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pdx.mothernurture* 
Thank you, TigerTail, for making this important distinction!

I will always _love_ my son, but if he abuses his children I will loose a great deal-if not all-_respect_ for him. I'd feel the same way if he took a kitchen shears to his daughter's labia.

Jen

Oh for gosh almighty! I think you know what I meant. Nice crap stirring though.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I'm not sure putting distance between someone who you feel has hurt you, and believe me if my child mutilated my grandchild it would hurt me, is necessarily done to "punish."

Well, but your child would in actual fact not be hurting you by circing their child. They would be hurting their child. You would *feel* hurt.

I feel like this kind of thing can be a self fulfilling prophecy. Because I feel like part of our children's job is to test our limits, and the limits of our love. If your love (as a verb, your demonstrated loving of them) has limits, they will find those limits IMO, more often than we would want them to.


----------



## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JJsMomma* 
I think if you're so quick to ditch your offspring over a decision they make that you don't agree with, you don't deserve to have children. These are the children that you created and you can only educate them so much before they need to venture out and make their own mistakes to learn from. My thinking is that if your child knows your presence in their life in conditional, your grandkids will be circ'd faster than you can say "Shmagma". :yes

And YOU said THIS beautifully.

ThisMama~ As always you are at the center of my mind and heart. I love you mama


----------



## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Well, but your child would in actual fact not be hurting you by circing their child. They would be hurting their child. You would *feel* hurt.

Semantics


----------



## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 
Oh for gosh almighty! I think you know what I meant. Nice crap stirring though.

No crap-stirring, just glad to hear you clarify your position. It's Ethics class, semantics _are_ important.


----------



## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

nevermind


----------



## mamakay (Apr 8, 2005)

I don't want to be overly optimistic, but I really don't think this will be an issue.
But weird stuff does happen, so if he were to, say, convert to some religion that demanded it or something, I'd mourn over it...it would really hurt my soul deeply...but I'd make myself get over it.
But loving him unconditionally is a personal value of mine that's probably at the very top priority wise over all the other priorities, eclipsing even values like intactivism.
My most basic sense of who and what I am in this universe is being his mother for as long as we're both alive. (Other things, too, of course, but his mother first and foremost).
And honestly, if he decides to do that to his kid, I think it will be the result of a failure on my part to raise him as a critical thinker and an empathetic human. But hopefully it won't ever even be an issue.
But I know I'm not perfect, and if I fail in that regard, I'll keep loving him in the exact same way.
But I _really_ don't think it will be an issue.

EAT:
What a depressing subject to even try to wrap your head around...lol...


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 

ThisMama~ As always you are at the center of my mind and heart. I love you mama

















Thank you. I love you too.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
Semantics

Not semantics at all, IMO, but a question of who holds responsibility for your feelings.

Your child may circ your grandchild because they convert to a different religion, new information is found (doubtful but you never know what's going to happen), or for some other reason dear to their heart that you may either not understand, or that you may understand and know to be wrong but they feel it is right.

The fact is, they are hurting their child, causing physical pain to their child. Your feelings as a result of that action are *your* feelings, not something they are doing to you.


----------



## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky* 
Honestly, I don't know how I would feel. If my son or daughter grew up to be the kind of person who could cut their baby's genitals, I'm not sure if I could get over it. I think it would hurt so deeply I'm not sure I could recover, and I know for sure I'd never feel the same way again. I might still love them and want to be a part of their lives, but it would be tough.

Ditto. I'd feel like a didn't know them anymore.


----------



## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Not semantics at all, IMO, but a question of who holds responsibility for your feelings.

Your child may circ your grandchild because they convert to a different religion, new information is found (doubtful but you never know what's going to happen), or for some other reason dear to their heart that you may either not understand, or that you may understand and know to be wrong but they feel it is right.

The fact is, they are hurting their child, causing physical pain to their child. Your feelings as a result of that action are *your* feelings, not something they are doing to you.

I think you are reading too much into my choice of words.


----------



## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Not semantics at all, IMO, but a question of who holds responsibility for your feelings.

Your child may circ your grandchild because they convert to a different religion, new information is found (doubtful but you never know what's going to happen), or for some other reason dear to their heart that you may either not understand, or that you may understand and know to be wrong but they feel it is right.

The fact is, they are hurting their child, causing physical pain to their child. Your feelings as a result of that action are *your* feelings, not something they are doing to you.

But what if they don't have "good" reasons? What if they circ just to look like daddy? Or beat their children? Or raise them to be racist homophobes? Are there any limits of your children's behavior towards their own children that would be enough to make you say "Enough. You may not do this with my support and love."?

If my child turns into a child abuser, then yep, I'm not going to be closely involved in my child's life any more. I highly doubt that will happen, but nobody in my life gets a free pass for child abuse. Nobody. I'm not going to be a hypocrite and condemn everyone else in the world for child abuse but give my own child a free pass.

I also think it's quite interesting how some people on this thread are among the most vociferous on other threads in terms of "Leave your dh! Cut off your relationships with your friends! Never talk to your sibling again!" but would stick by their circing children no matter what....


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I think our relationships with our children are sacred and different from our other relationships. I think we hold a very special and powerful place in their psyches thru their whole lives and that is a responsibility we must take seriously.


----------



## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I think our relationships with our children are sacred and different from our other relationships. I think we hold a very special and powerful place in their psyches thru their whole lives and that is a responsibility we must take seriously.

It's true, sigh.

And beyond my feelings, my will to unconditionally love, etc- if I cut people out of my life, I lose the chance to convince them for the next child. Or their child. Or their... well, you get my drift, my parrot has decided to create a fracas & I cannot put any more words together thoughtfully, so I'll stop.


----------



## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

Quote:

Sometimes someone can hurt you so badly that it is just to painful to be around them. The distance may not necessarily punitive.
Exactly. That doesn't make my presence in their life conditional. Sometimes you just CAN'T be around someone - even if it's your kid. Or your own parent. I know there are choices my mothers made that has made me distance myself from her for a period of time. But I guess that means I don't love her unconditionally and her presence in my life is conditional huh?

And as for the jaw drop smiley at my response - why? Because I'd donate to charity instead of willing them as much as originally intended. Anyone who cuts someone else's body for their own purposes doesn't deserve my money, that is a horrible and heinous act not deserving of a reward I'm sorry. I refuse to leave a significant amount of money to someone that I do not respect. Even if that someone is my child. Other reasons I would not leave said child money: drug dealing/using, gambling, stealing, murdering, child abuse/neglect, sibling abuse/neglect.

So yeah, I'd either put the money in trust for their kids or donate it to a genital integirty charity.


----------



## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

And the distance may not be literal, as well. Sometimes distance is a result, not a choice. There are things that my unconditionally-loved children could do that would, in the natural course of events, cause an emotional distance between us, whether I will it or no.

(I gave my bird a cracker, it's quiet here again.







)


----------



## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

I agree with that as well, I could definitely see my (hypothetical) pro-circ child not wanting to be around me after circing because they feel they might be judged or I might say something they don't like etc al.


----------



## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I would feel very hurt and not understand, and I may feel like I did not know my son anymore or had been slapped in the face. It may take me some time to get over it, and it may occasionally cause me feelings of sorrow and inadequacy...but there is no way that I would disown my child or distance myself from him for any reason short of him brutally murdering someone, and even in that case I'm not sure I could turn from him and stop loving him.


----------



## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Nope


----------



## Greeneyes0506 (Aug 31, 2006)

.


----------



## Bartock (Feb 2, 2006)

Well I have no girls, yet i hope to have one someday, 1 is cut 1 is not DH is restoring, so by the time they have kids, the at the rate circ is dropping around here, I hope my cut one restores as well and does not cut his son. We will have the talks when he is old enough to understand, but if my DIL wants to cut, I will do my dam nest to prevent it. And If I had a girl like a lot said I will love my kids no matter what, and all I can do is steer them in the right direction, and hope they chose the right things to do.


----------



## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Nope


----------



## DocsNemesis (Dec 10, 2005)

Well, I know I have previously posted that I would indeed, disown my children if they did that to their child. However, as others have said, there is a difference between outright disowning and distancing. So I guess I wouldnt disown them, but I would find it extremely difficult to be around them and I dont think I would look at them the same again.
And I am not afraid to say that while my love is pretty much unconditional for my children, I woudnt stand by them in many cases-like if they raped, murdered, abused, etc. In fact, I would help convict them if I knew something. No one-not even my own children-deserves to get away with something like that. (I'm talking about something like, say, my kid came home with blood all over his/her shirt or something...I would testify that this happened).
However, I will admit that I have kind of a messed up sense of love or something...I hate my mother and couldnt care less what happens to her, so obviously something went wrong there.








I highly doubt any of my grandbabies will be circ'd anyway though concidering that A-they know how harmful it is and know that their dad is very mad about his being circ'd and B-its illegal in Finland!


----------



## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Morals, Values and Ethics = Character

_The real question here is:_

Would you distance yourself from your child if he/she grew up with a/any morals, values or ethics that were *extremely disturbing to you*. Insert mgm *or anything else here that makes you uncomfortable or nauseous*.

How about rape?

How about other sick crimes?

How about if they lied, or cheated or stole from people?

How about this?

How about that?

Where do YOU draw the line with *your loyalty* towards someone you love who lets you down in a very serious way? Everyone has a line so I'd like some honest answers here please. Then perhaps we can all talk about _how disturbing YOUR line is._


----------



## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DocsNemesis* 
And I am not afraid to say that while my love is pretty much unconditional for my children, I woudnt stand by them in many cases-like if they raped, murdered, abused, etc. In fact, I would help convict them if I knew something. No one-not even my own children-deserves to get away with something like that. (I'm talking about something like, say, my kid came home with blood all over his/her shirt or something...I would testify that this happened).

Oh good gracious, I hope no one thought I'd hide my hypothetical serial killer kid in the basement or something!







I wouldn't lie to protect an evil act, that would be a crime against justice.

Love & support don't require deceit- in court, or about genital mutilation.


----------



## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

Is it just me, or is this whole business of disowning a little odd? I don't own my child, any more than I own decisions about her genitals. My parents didn't own me, even before they "disowned" me.

Just had to say....


----------



## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Good point.


----------



## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

I'd always love my children but I'd be just as mad at them as if I found out they abused their children in any other way.


----------



## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tie-dyed* 
Is it just me, or is this whole business of disowning a little odd? I don't own my child, any more than I own decisions about her genitals. My parents didn't own me, even before they "disowned" me.

Just had to say....

I understand the sentiment here, and I am not trying to be a smart alec, but one of the definitions of disown is "to repudiate any connection or identification with" which is what I believe the OP meant.


----------



## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

or maybe she meant "prevent deliberately (as by making a will) from inheriting." Ok now *I* am getting into semantics...I'm off to bed.


----------



## frenchie (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DahliaRW* 
I'd love my children unconditionally, but that being said I could never sit by and approve of them abusing their children. And circ is abuse. So yes, there would be some ramifications to our relationship if they were mistreating their children in any way.

Well said! My love for my child is unconditional, as I stated earlier in this thread. However, I would make my feelings well known about the issue (or any other issues of abuse), and that I'm sure would put a strain on the relationship.
Really, the question is kind of moot to me at this point. My son is intact, and we are very honest with him as why we left him that way. I just can't grasp the thought that he would want to mutilate his own genitals, let alone the genitals of his child. We can't predict the future!


----------



## frenchie (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I am so disturbed by some of these responses. This is parental love expressed very conditionally. It is controlling. Yes, you think it's valid because in your opinion the issue is so serious, but parents do this kind of thing about issues they think are serious all the time. And the pain it causes the children is so real and so deep nothing can touch or heal it.

It's so ironic, because the people who say they would treat their children this way profess to be interested in protecting the wholeness of their grandbabies' genitals. But I believe our children's spirits are at least as important. Parents wield a lot of power, and the willingness to cut off your children or punish them with distance over *anything* will be something they will be able to feel as a possibility energetically IMO. And it will harm them, whether you actually do it or not.

This thread makes me want to







:

This just made me think of my relationship with my own mother. She was very abusive to me growing up. The abuse continued even after I left the house...at that point being emotionaly abusive. I see that she has made some effort, but her habits still remain to an extent...and I don't think she realizes it. No matter what, I still love her. My grandmother was 10x worse to her, than my mom has been to me...yet my mother loves my granny with every fiber of her being. Mind you, my granny admitted to nearly killing my mother as an infant by deliberately smothering her.
I only have one mom...she only has one daughter. We do what we can to get by in our relationship. It's taken a lot to get the healing we've gotten so far...and I patiently wait for more to come.
I love my child with every fiber of my being. He WILL dissapoint me in life. I EXPECT that there will be a time in life when we just don't see eye to eye. I imagine that those times will put a strain on our relationship...but I don't know that I'd have it in me to deliberately seperate myself from my child because I can't agree with him. I think disowning a child is another form of abuse, and it accomplishes nothing but pain.


----------



## frenchie (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JJsMomma* 
"Shmagma"









I believe "smegma" is the word you're looking for.


----------



## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

I think she was being ironic, which is a good step. Being playful about tense subjects helps lighten the burdens of life. There is nothing so awful we can't make each other laugh while discussing, as long as we are not ever making light of a child's pain (or an adult's sexual mutilation).


----------



## frenchie (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 







I think she was being ironic, which is a good step. Being playful about tense subjects helps lighten the burdens of life. There is nothing so awful we can't make each other laugh while discussing, as long as we are not ever making light of a child's pain (or an adult's sexual mutilation).

Perhaps....I just saw the UD thread with the word "Shmagma". I've encountered loads of people that have called it Schmegma or Schmagma. Either way...it made me LOL!!


----------



## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
My children have my unconditional love.


----------



## JJsMomma (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frenchie* 







I believe "smegma" is the word you're looking for.


You know I meant to type it that was right?


----------



## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

I will always love my children no matter what they do, but I would not mince words one bit if they chose to mutilate their child - male or female. They would know that I consider that act (keeping in mind that they will have all the facts well beforehand) to be nothing less than knowingly sexually assaulting a child. They will know what I think of it well before any babies are born and I don't expect to have much trouble... any girl marrying a son of mine will have to be at least tolerant of an intact penis and my daughters will be taught to have that mama-bear instinct and protect their children from harm.

But if they did... they would certainly get a ginormous piece of my mind... not a pleasant piece either. I couldn't give them a piece of my mind very effectively if I distanced myself from them...

ETA - I'd probably be so upset that my children may choose to distance themselves from me till I cooled off though... it takes a lot to make me mad, but once you do, you better look out!

love and peace.


----------



## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JJsMomma* 
You know I meant to type it that was right?









See? I knew you were joking







. (If you knew how many times we have to correct it for reals... well, we always have to wonder.)


----------



## Bartock (Feb 2, 2006)

I was thinking a lot about this thread last night and it disturbs me. I find it horrible that anyone would even think about disowning their children.


----------



## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovemy2ds* 
I was thinking a lot about this thread last night and it disturbs me. I find it horrible that anyone would even think about disowning their children.

Disowning for circ'ing or disowning for any reason?


----------



## Bartock (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
Disowning for circ'ing or disowning for any reason?

Disowning for any reason


----------



## JJsMomma (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 
See? I knew you were joking







. (If you knew how many times we have to correct it for reals... well, we always have to wonder.)

Ok, just making sure! LOL I hate people who can't spell (typos don't count). Well, hate is a strong word. I just don't like reading their posts.







:


----------



## dynamohumm6 (Feb 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trmpetplaya* 
I will always love my children no matter what they do, but I would not mince words one bit if they chose to mutilate their child - male or female. They would know that I consider that act (keeping in mind that they will have all the facts well beforehand) to be nothing less than knowingly sexually assaulting a child. They will know what I think of it well before any babies are born and I don't expect to have much trouble... any girl marrying a son of mine will have to be at least tolerant of an intact penis and my daughters will be taught to have that mama-bear instinct and protect their children from harm.

But if they did... they would certainly get a ginormous piece of my mind... not a pleasant piece either. I couldn't give them a piece of my mind very effectively if I distanced myself from them...

ETA - I'd probably be so upset that my children may choose to distance themselves from me till I cooled off though... it takes a lot to make me mad, but once you do, you better look out!

love and peace.










Pretty much ditto this.

I will always, always LOVE my children, no matter what. That doesn't that they won't ever do something that will cause me to not like them very much.

If my son grows up and starts beating his wife, I will still love him, and I will try to help him change. Same goes for circ, and a host of other things that "could" happen.


----------



## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kldliam* 
Then perhaps we can all talk about _how disturbing YOUR line is._


This is really patronizing.

As TigerTail said, god forbid my kid were on death row, I'd be there, visiting. There is no "distancing" of children I grew in my womb. (or if I had adopted them, for that matter...same thing.)

Now with rape, stealing, etc. that you mentioned...........if my kid actually did it, I'd be the first to turn them in (vs. them being falsely accused.) But I'd still hold their hand through the trial, if they'd let me!

Problem with circ is, I can't turn them into the "proper authorities" because the "proper authorities" don't give a rat's behind.


----------



## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trmpetplaya* 

But if they did... they would certainly get a ginormous piece of my mind... not a pleasant piece either. I couldn't give them a piece of my mind very effectively if I distanced myself from them...


----------



## ~Lolosoli~ (Mar 16, 2006)

No I wouldn't...

I also would not support the decision though...

I am raising three intactivist's though...I cannot see them ever considering it...

~Charlene~


----------



## Getz (May 22, 2005)

I have just skimmed the other responses...

I will be preaching to my kids (a son and I am expecting a daughter) that circumcision is child abuse their wholes lives so I would be extremely disappointed should they choose to circ their own children. My guess is our relationship may become strained because I am sure I would be seen by their pro-circ spouse as the crazy, evil MIL.

I would still want to be a part of my grandchild's life though I doubt I would ever change a diaper.

I hope I never have to worry about it.


----------



## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

I cannot imagine disowning him... but I would be very very very shocked.

He is an intact male who will grow up knowing that intact is normal and natural the way males should be.

I just pray I never have to deal with this, that any future grandbabies of mine will be intact as nature intended. I do not think my child would be being a good parent otherwise.


----------



## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
There is no "distancing" of children I grew in my womb. (or if I had adopted them, for that matter...same thing.)

What if they were physically abusive towards you? There is a situation in my extended family that involves an adult male physically and verbally abusing his mother as well as stealing from her. She is a wonderful woman who has done everything she can for him. Would she be wrong if she distanced herself from him in order to protect herself? I know this off topic from the OP, but I have seen quite a few post stating it is never ever ok to distance yourself from your child for any reason, even murder or rape, but I just wondered if anyone had considered physical abuse of the parent.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
What if they were physically abusive towards you? There is a situation in my extended family that involves an adult male physically and verbally abusing his mother as well as stealing from her. She is a wonderful woman who has done everything she can for him. Would she be wrong if she distanced herself from him in order to protect herself? I know this off topic from the OP, but I have seen quite a few post stating it is never ever ok to distance yourself from your child for any reason, even murder or rape, but I just wondered if anyone had considered physical abuse of the parent.

nak - what i was trying to get at before is it is different if a child is directly hurting you, vs. disapproving of their decisions. the first is about self protection, and you gotta do what you gotta do, IMO.


----------



## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
nak - what i was trying to get at before is it is different if a child is directly hurting you, vs. disapproving of their decisions. the first is about self protection, and you gotta do what you gotta do, IMO.

It's funny that you responded to my question. I didn't get that you were saying this in your earlier posts at all. You seemed to be clarifying the difference between a child hurting you or just making you feel hurt, but I never got the impression that for you either was an acceptable reason to distance yourself from your child. It seemed to me you were very emphatic that if a child sensed that you would ever do so for any reason, it would scar the child's soul. I guess I misunderstood.


----------



## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

I was thinking more about this whole concept of distance, and I guess like just about everything else, I think one's opinion about it is strongly shaped by one's life experience. Obviously if you felt your parents distanced themselves in a punitive way from you for what you feel is some frivilous reason or a particular lifestyle choice you made, well then I can see why you would have extemely negative feelings about distancing yourself from your child. Of course, I am sure one could feel negatively about distance even without that life experience. However, I think distance can be a positive thing sometimes for everyone involved. I have relationships in my family where I think a little distance has actually made for a more peaceful and healthy relationship by reducing conflict.

As as far OPs question of whether I would distance myself from my child if they circ'ed their son, I can see where it may possibly be a good thing for everyone if I did so. I'm not sayng I necessarily would feel the need to do it, and I certainly wouldn't do it to punish them. However, if I was so upset about it that I would feel the need to give them a piece of my mind all the time, like some PPs have mentioned, especially everytime anything related to the subject came up, like a diaper change as a PP mentioned, then I think putting some distance between myself and the situation (and my child by default) would be better for everyone. Once the deed was done, me voicing my disapproval or frustration to my child would serve no purpose other than to allow me to vent my feelings and to upset my child about something they could not change. I sure as heck wouldn't want my mom here if she disapproved of some way I was choosing to raise my child and she couldn't keep it to herself AND get over it in her own mind. I would definitely rather her keep her distance.

I think it was on this thread that someone mentioned that they couldn't turn their love on and off. I agree, but I also feel one can't turn frustration and disappointment on and off like a faucet either. If that frustration and disappointment would lead to an unhealthy or tumultuous relationship, then distance may be necessary IMHO. I actually see it as a form of respect and love, not a withdrawl of love. I know everyone here is entitled to their own opinion and I am not trying to change anyone's mind. I'm just writing this to clarify things in my own mind really. Thanks if you read this rediculously long post in it's entirety.


----------



## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
Once the deed was done, me voicing my disapproval or frustration to my child would serve no purpose other than to allow me to vent my feelings and to upset my child about something they could not change.

I agree with most of your post, & to be sure, there is a fine line between educating & being a nudge, but I DO see a reason to not give up beyond venting- there may be other children, there may be grandchildren, friends to convince, etc.

Some of the most wonderfully effective intactivists are the regretful parents.

The only bad analogy I can come up with right now... Let's see. My dd is visiting, with her cats. I told her it would be a bad idea to let them outside in a strange place.

"OH mom." 20 yr olds always know better, yes? So she let a cat out, & it disappeared for a week, & she was _devastated_.

I had to tread that fine line- not in her face with a bunch of snide 'I TOLD you so's, but supportive of her grief & worry, while being close enough to her that she didn't _have_ to hear it from me. She knew. People make mistakes, terrible mistakes sometimes, when they are figuring out the world.

She could tell me herself how she regretted not listening to me & that if she ever got her back, it wouldn't happen again. (btw, kitty came back collarless & starving last night. Yay! She has new tags in case she escapes, but is now an INDOOR cat.)

Being an attached parent doesn't stop when they give up the tit.









If she ever chose to do something stupid like circ a child, I think she is informed & bright enough to not think it is 'ok' afterwards, & I want to be the one she knows she can come to & grieve over her bad decision with. There are future children in the world to think of (& an old friend of hers just had a little boy, & I pray GOD my own dd's teenage intactivism sunk in with her).


----------



## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 
I agree with most of your post, & to be sure, there is a fine line between educating & being a nudge, but I DO see a reason to not give up beyond venting- there may be other children, there may be grandchildren, friends to convince, etc.

Some of the most wonderfully effective intactivists are the regretful parents.

ITA. I would definitely not give up. However, I would try and bite my tounge until I felt I could be a calm voice of reason.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 
Being an attached parent doesn't stop when they give up the tit.

















I love it. I never thought of it that way, but those are definitely words to live by.

BTW I'm glad to hear kitty is ok.


----------



## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Well, this better never come up because I plan to raise them better than that, BUT if it did, I would let them know how horrible it was and exactly how we felt about it. I would have several good long talks about it with them. If they still did it, I would be livid. They would be physically and sexually abusing my grandchild. That's not ok. I wouldn't disown them or give them less money or anything like that, but they would for sure know that I did not approve and that I was extremely disappointed in them.


----------

