# Observations of traditional discipline



## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

Today, DH and I were at a bookstore, killing time before DS' pediatrician appointment. We happened to observe a mother with an older toddler (probably 2.5 - 3 years old) who was walking through the store crying, tantrum-throwing, etc.

It was kind of an interesting experience, because we both realized how far we had come down the gentle discipline spectrum. In the past, we would have watched this scenario play out and thought that the mom was doing "ineffective" things to curb the little one's "misbehavior." (She gave her a swat on the bottom at one point, not particularly hard, tried reasoning with her, tried to get her to pick out a book, ignored her, etc.)

This time, we both watched this and thought, "This little one clearly doesn't want to be book shopping right now, and she is trying harder and harder to convey that message to her mom, who isn't seeming to get the message."

It was just kind of neat to realize how differently we interpreted this family's interaction than we would have years ago. And it really did bring home a point I'd recently read, that children act according to how they feel.

Just wanted to share, and say thanks to everyone who has encouraged mamas here to consider situations from a child's POV.


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## wendizbaby (Jul 22, 2005)

I know the feeling!! It's funny that we have to "realize" that 100% of the time children ARE actually trying to tell us something! What a revelation!







When I actually stop and "listen" to my child, the "misbehavior" clears up (usually).









Wendi


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## MamaOutThere (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:

"This little one clearly doesn't want to be book shopping right now, and she is trying harder and harder to convey that message to her mom, who isn't seeming to get the message."
Exactly what I was thinking throughout the first part of the post. What is it with taking kids shopping, anyway?


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Sometimes people don't have a choice, and have to take their kids shopping with them. Sometimes the kids don't particularly enjoy it. What choice do you have when you *have* to get something done, though?







:


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## Narn (Nov 7, 2007)

My baby is only three months old, but I've started reading about GD already and watching my sister with my three-year-old nephew. Before I would think, "There's got to be a better way to get him to listen without hitting and yelling all day." Now I think, "Why does she even expect him to listen to her at all?" For example, he'll ask the same question three times in a row. He is only three and still working on his language. She'll yell, "STOP REPEATING YOURSELF AND I'LL ANSWER YOUR QUESTION!!" He'll hang his head and say, "Sowwy.." Poor guy. The things parents demand of their little ones sometimes are just unreasonable.


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## MamaOutThere (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:

What choice do you have when you *have* to get something done, though?
Yes, I can see how my words could be offensive to many (actually, most). I'm sorry.

It just didn't seem like the case here. Perhaps I misread or misjudged, but it sounded like the mama was forcing a bookstore trip down the child's throat.

FWIW, I've never looked at children in shops and wondered, "What are you doing here?" Nor have I ever been annoyed at tantruming children in public places. I just think shopping is highly overstimulating for children.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

Quote:

Sometimes people don't have a choice, and have to take their kids shopping with them. Sometimes the kids don't particularly enjoy it. What choice do you have when you *have* to get something done, though?
Thats a very good question...
(though I will add as a side note...book shopping is not something that must be done - its something you do for fun...amazon is better anyhow if you just need to get a book for whatever reason







lol)

Well...I am in this boat - for a variety of reasons. But my must need to be done shopping is only for food. This is where consensual living comes into play well for us (usually lol)...There are ways around trying to get something done that must be done. For small babies - you cant beat a sling. Even my son who is 2 loves his sling and can often be happy just being in it and near me. Now he wants to 'do' more things and be a part of everything more...which takes clever thinking. Be it making shopping fun, bringing something fun along, I even got a buggy for him that faces me so he can sit in one place keeping everyone safe and happy but still shopping with me and talking with me and being invovled and putting things in the basket for me, etc... there is always I feel, a way around something that must be done. It just takes listening to one another and working together - instead of not listneing and trying to work against....Like that mother in the OP example. (hypothetical...)If I just didnt have a computer and couldnt buy a book off amazon and had to go to the bookstore and my son just didnt want to be there (and I couldnt put it off for another time because I was a single mother with no other family)...I know this for my son at least would be fixed by some sling action - pop him in and then we both are happy! lol And then I would get in an out and make sure what I sorta knew I was after before I got there to make it quick and smooth and easy for us all!


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

*


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaOutThere* 
Exactly what I was thinking throughout the first part of the post. What is it with taking kids shopping, anyway?









Well, lucky you for never having to take your kids to the store.

I think the mom likely knew the kiddo's feelings.







Maybe she just couldn't rearrange her schedule for the day. Not every parent bends to the whim of their children.


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## gargirl (Dec 30, 2006)

Heh, for me bookstore trips are an outing I enjoy and if my 5 year old wants to be a bear about it then thats what he's going to do. I do lots of things I truly do not enjoy just because he enjoys them and he can return the favor on occasion. I do talk to him and work with him explaining that we all need to learn to do _some_ things we don't like to do and do them happily out of consideration for others. We all make compromises and we all take turns. Sometimes mommy gets a turn too.







There are also things HE enjoys about the bookstore, like going to the kid's section and having Daddy read to him while mommy shops and vice/versa.

I also shop on Amazon too, but going out to a bookstore and picking up the books is so much more fun. I also get to interact with other shoppers and talk about books. I love that.

I do love the shift in perspective the OP had. It really is a different world when you really believe kids matter and their opinions count.


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## IdahoMom (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mz_libbie22* 







Well, lucky you for never having to take your kids to the store.

I think the mom likely knew the kiddo's feelings.







Maybe she just couldn't rearrange her schedule for the day. Not every parent bends to the whim of their children.


I'm glad it's not just me. I try to time everything so that everyone is happy and best-equipped for an outing, but sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and go. go (and yes, sometimes it's a bookstore or something other than groceries). My job isn't to make sure they always get what they want, but to teach them how to deal with negative feelings.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

As for the bookstore not being necessary...
For 4 months last winter/spring, we lived in Brooklyn while our apartment was being renovated. DDs preschool (and our regular apartment) were in Manhattan. After preschool, I went to Barnes and Noble b/c she was generally happy there and she'd nap in her stroller and I'd get hot chocolate and sit in the cafe while she slept. I could NOT take back to Brooklyn on the subway after school and before nap, b/c she'd fall asleep on the train and I could not carry her and her stroller out of the station. Nor could I babywear her at 3 y o for the 2 hours she naps, while pregnant with ds.

So I'm sure there were days when she was tired and cranky and "misbehaving." I know there were bad morning sickness and migraine days where I was a bad Mama (I never spank, but there was surely shouting going on). But that was the best place I could think of for us to be at that time. Now dealing with ppd. there are also days when we go out b/c I need to be out of the house even when dd doesn't want to be. It might be the best that mother can be at the time. (I'm always worried I'll read about myself on MDC after a bad day with the kids!







)


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I appreciate the OP perspective, although I admit that I'm not surprised the subsequent posters feel it is necessary to shoot her down.

I've had the same realization. That I don't have to get a lot of things done that I thought I did (who am I doing this for? is a great question I ask myself) and that I don't have to act like a horse's @ss no matter what reason I tell myself that I do.

Not that I don't sometimes act like a horse's @ss, just that the line that I *have* to act like a horse's @ss is not true.

When my kids are done, we are done. If I go home without finishing the grocery shopping (which I've only had to do once), there's food at home, just not what I was planning. I don't live on a desert island. If we eat cereal for dinner happy, it's better than a 4 course meal pissed at each other.

There are a few things that *have* to be done when they have to be done. When I'm tired and cranky and pushing my kids beyond their limits, *they* aren't the ones misbehaving when they resist.

It's a paradigm shift and once made, everything looks different.

And somehow I manage to have a partner, have 2 kids, have a job and get us all fed and dressed.


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## Kay11 (Aug 30, 2006)

I think something else to consider is that some of us have kids who just meltdown without any warning (no obvious one anyway and believe me, I've looked long and hard). And when she does there is literally nothign I can do but make sure she's safe and wait for her to accept being picked up without me getting hurt and her getting angrier. So it might look like I'm being a terrible parent by "ignoring" her, but frankly it's the only thing that works. And I'm not ignoring, I'm giving time and space. They probably look the same to someone who doesn't know us though.

And I have tbh, sometimes I expect my kids to go along with something I want or need to do, just like I go along with stuff they want or need to do. The proportions are just different is all (hardly an equal split). I realise that if you're into consensual living, then this might be different for you, but the general tone of judgement is what gets to me. If you don't know the other person's circumstances, best not to make a judgement based on one incident.


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## burke-a-bee (Jan 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *L&IsMama* 
Sometimes people don't have a choice, and have to take their kids shopping with them. Sometimes the kids don't particularly enjoy it. What choice do you have when you *have* to get something done, though?







:

Exactly what I was thinking.


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *L&IsMama* 
Sometimes people don't have a choice, and have to take their kids shopping with them. Sometimes the kids don't particularly enjoy it. What choice do you have when you *have* to get something done, though?







:

Having been observing this shopping trip, I think it was more of a "let's get out of the house and get some books for ourselves" idea, timed poorly.

But often, we do have to take little ones shopping. I think that it would have helped this mama if she had stopped for a moment, looked at her LO, and acknowledged the LO's desire to leave. Or given her a concrete thing to do - "We need to pick a calendar for Aunt May, and then we can leave. Can you point to some that you think she would like? What about this one, with the kitty cats?"

Instead, it was easy for the LO to feel that the trip was never going to end, and for the mama to be frustrated that she couldn't get anything done because the LO was throwing fit after fit.


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## MamaOutThere (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:

Yes, I can see how my words could be offensive to many (actually, most). I'm sorry.
Did anyone read this? I think I misjudged the whole scenario, which is quite easy to do when related by someone besides the mama herself. I'm not sure why I even bothered to participate in this thread.

Again, sorry that so many of you are offended by my words.

I handle my shopping in a way that I find efficient for my family. You can all do what you want.

Thanks,
Unsubcribing


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## IdahoMom (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I appreciate the OP perspective, although I admit that I'm not surprised the subsequent posters feel it is necessary to shoot her down.

I've had the same realization. That I don't have to get a lot of things done that I thought I did (who am I doing this for? is a great question I ask myself) and that I don't have to act like a horse's @ss no matter what reason I tell myself that I do.

Not that I don't sometimes act like a horse's @ss, just that the line that I *have* to act like a horse's @ss is not true.

When my kids are done, we are done. If I go home without finishing the grocery shopping (which I've only had to do once), there's food at home, just not what I was planning. I don't live on a desert island. If we eat cereal for dinner happy, it's better than a 4 course meal pissed at each other.

There are a few things that *have* to be done when they have to be done. When I'm tired and cranky and pushing my kids beyond their limits, *they* aren't the ones misbehaving when they resist.

It's a paradigm shift and once made, everything looks different.

And somehow I manage to have a partner, have 2 kids, have a job and get us all fed and dressed.


I have a car about one day a week, and financially and environmentally I try not to make more trips than I need to. I plan for as many stops as my kids can handle, but some days their patience is shorter than others. That doesn't mean I pack up and go home. It means I do what I need to and try to help them get through it.

I just love these "I'm a better mom than you" threads.


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kay11* 
I think something else to consider is that some of us have kids who just meltdown without any warning (no obvious one anyway and believe me, I've looked long and hard). And when she does there is literally nothign I can do but make sure she's safe and wait for her to accept being picked up without me getting hurt and her getting angrier. So it might look like I'm being a terrible parent by "ignoring" her, but frankly it's the only thing that works. And I'm not ignoring, I'm giving time and space. They probably look the same to someone who doesn't know us though.

FWIW, my son is a quick meltdown-er, too.

I didn't think this mum was a terrible parent, just that she was reacting to her child's behavior rather than taking a step back to look at the whole situation, questioning whether the LO was trying to send her a message about her unhappiness with the way the day was going.

She actually seemed like a very nice mama, just tired and really wishing she could look at some books and that her toddler would get over being miserable and let her shop for a minute or two. I think we've all been there.

I was reflecting more on how I would have previously "indicted" the toddler for misbehaving, and now I tend to realize that the toddler is just trying to communicate her feelings about the situation as best as she knows how.

I do try very hard not to be judgmental toward other moms, and I know that 99% of mothers are doing the very best that they can with the information they have. But our society makes it hard, because we tend to focus so heavily on reactive discipline and "behavior," rather than on needs and inability to communicate them.

So when our LO "acts up," especially very small children, it's often hard to step outside of that paradigm and try to figure out how to address the real issue.








:


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdahoMom* 
I just love these "I'm a better mom than you" threads.









You know what? That's not an assessment that's exactly free of judgment, either.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

My DD, at 25 months, loves browsing in shops sometimes. She especially likes the Tibetan import shops with all the brightly colored clothing, wooden masks, and stuff. We go window shopping in the winter for an out door activity sometimes. The sidewalks downtown are one place the snow is always cleared off.
When we have to do shopping and she obviously doesn't want to........ I take her home. I usually ask her if she wants to go home and stay with daddy while I come back again later. Sometimes she does, and others she calms down so we can finish. It's getting better now than it was a few months ago. I let her walk and 'help' push the cart.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

OP, I love when you can actually see how you've shifted perspective like that!

Congrats on your progress on your journey!


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ssh* 
My DD, at 25 months, loves browsing in shops sometimes. She especially likes the Tibetan import shops with all the brightly colored clothing, wooden masks, and stuff. We go window shopping in the winter for an out door activity sometimes. The sidewalks downtown are one place the snow is always cleared off.
When we have to do shopping and she obviously doesn't want to........ I take her home. I usually ask her if she wants to go home and stay with daddy while I come back again later. Sometimes she does, and others she calms down so we can finish. It's getting better now than it was a few months ago. I let her walk and 'help' push the cart.

DS enjoys "shopping together," too. I find that when I try to shop and bring him along, but I don't involve him, it doesn't end well. When I try to shop with him and he's tired or cranky, we are not going to make it through the store without WWII erupting.

Generally we try to shop over the weekend as a family, so we have the option of taking DS out of the store to play elsewhere, if needbe. But he has an extremely short attention span and can't sit still, certainly not in a sling, so trying to get in and out of a grocery store alone with him is really hard.

Today we ate blueberries for lunch rather than brave the grocery store alone. Does that make me a better mom than the one who is gutsy enough to go to the store and deal with the tantrums?


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ruhbehka* 
Generally we try to shop over the weekend as a family, so we have the option of taking DS out of the store to play elsewhere, if needbe.

Today we ate blueberries for lunch rather than brave the grocery store alone. Does that make me a better mom than the one who is gutsy enough to go to the store and deal with the tantrums?









That's what works for you, that's great. But it doesn't work like that for everyone. There are simply times that I _have_ to take both kids shopping. And there have been times where I have taken them, even when they didn't want to go, because _I_ needed to get out of the house for a bit. Like a PP said, I do many things for them that bore me to tears, and I feel that they are old enough to be able to handle a trip to Target, or some other store that I want to go to.


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

I "have" to get things done, I don't have a choice around here. Yes, I make a strong effort to make sure everyone is in a great mood, fed, happy and content, but bottom-line is if I have to get groceries, pick of meds, or anything, the girls have to come along. Last time I checked, I was the parent, and I make the rules of the house and although I do take my girls' thoughts into consideration, if I need to do something, then I will and they will have to learn they don't always get what they want. That said, I do not take them shoe shopping, or just browsing for things. I do that on my own time, alone..I can enjoy myself a LOT better that way.


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaOutThere* 
Did anyone read this? I think I misjudged the whole scenario, which is quite easy to do when related by someone besides the mama herself. I'm not sure why I even bothered to participate in this thread.

Again, sorry that so many of you are offended by my words.

I handle my shopping in a way that I find efficient for my family. You can all do what you want.

Thanks,
Unsubcribing

I did!

FWIW, I think the subsequent discussion was more about the general idea of how much you shopping you *have* to do with kids and what some alternatives are. I didn't feel a lot of that discussion was directly aimed at your post. I think on the GD forum there is a lot of back and forth about CL, and this fell into that dialogue.

I can imagine you'd feel hurt, though.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

I'm also kinda wondering if it makes a big difference with 2 or more kids versus 1 child. Most people I know with very consensual living parenting styles have only 1 child, or 2 children spaced far apart (7+ years). Ds is only 3 months old and we've already had situations where he needs to leave, dd does not want to leave. OP, I get that you're looking at parenting and effectiveness differently, and that's great, but I'd also caution that your child is young yet and you only have 1, so don't count at any point on a particular "method" or even "mindset" being a panacea for all ages.


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## IdahoMom (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom* 
I'm also kinda wondering if it makes a big difference with 2 or more kids versus 1 child. Most people I know with very consensual living parenting styles have only 1 child, or 2 children spaced far apart (7+ years). Ds is only 3 months old and we've already had situations where he needs to leave, dd does not want to leave. OP, I get that you're looking at parenting and effectiveness differently, and that's great, but I'd also caution that your child is young yet and you only have 1, so don't count at any point on a particular "method" or even "mindset" being a panacea for all ages.


Bingo.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

For me it's not only about always doing what they want right in that moment but helping them through when we can't do what they want because no matter how consentual we are we still have times we find it hard to compromise..that goes for the adults and the children in the family.

Friday is our shopping day. It's also play group day. Sometimes they have trouble with the shopping and it helps to remind them that we have to get this done quickly so we can get to playgroup. Occasionally they meltdown because we are not finished and I hug them and let them know I understand that it's hard to wait, while mommy gets teh groceries.

I am on my own with 4 kids. My dh is a long-haul truck driver so no matter I have to pick up food and run errands with kids in tow. It usually goes really well but sometimes it's tough on them and me.

OP..I thought you were more talking about the change in how you viewed things differently rather than judging the mom so much. I think I get what you were trying to say. That this mom seemed to be doing things the way you used to do them. It was just an observation on your part of a change in YOU rather than sitting in judgement of what the mom was doing. That's how I read things anyway.

I see people do things all the time that I observe to be traditional discipline. I often can see a different way of doing things. I believe the way I do things is better else I wouldn't be doing them. That's not so much a judgement as an observation.

It's like a gentle shift in perspective that goes along with the move towards gentler discipline.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ruhbehka* 
It was kind of an interesting experience, because we both realized how far we had come down the gentle discipline spectrum...

This time, we both watched this and thought, "This little one clearly doesn't want to be book shopping right now, and she is trying harder and harder to convey that message to her mom, who isn't seeming to get the message."

It was just kind of neat to realize how differently we interpreted this family's interaction than we would have years ago. And it really did bring home a point I'd recently read, that children act according to how they feel.

Just wanted to share, and say thanks to everyone who has encouraged mamas here to consider situations from a child's POV.










Quote:


Originally Posted by *ruhbehka* 
I was reflecting more on how I would have previously "indicted" the toddler for misbehaving, and now I tend to realize that the toddler is just trying to communicate her feelings about the situation as best as she knows how.

I hear what you're saying, OP. It is neat--the sudden realization one can sometimes have about how differently one thinks now as opposed to "back then." When you realize how much you're perspective has changed. And how good that realization can sometimes feel, when you recognize all the good your change in thinking/perspective has brought to your life.


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *L&IsMama* 
That's what works for you, that's great. But it doesn't work like that for everyone. There are simply times that I _have_ to take both kids shopping. And there have been times where I have taken them, even when they didn't want to go, because _I_ needed to get out of the house for a bit. Like a PP said, I do many things for them that bore me to tears, and I feel that they are old enough to be able to handle a trip to Target, or some other store that I want to go to.

Dude. I fail to see where I said that you should do things that way. I get that people have to shop alone with kids at times. Even I do, once in a while, and I hate it, do my best, deal with the tantrums, and swear that it won't happen again, so help me God.

[And honestly, you clearly don't have a kid like mine, or the horrors that would ensue when you dragged him, "not wanting to go," because you "needed to get out of the house" would be enough to ensure that you never, ever wanted to leave the house. For any reason. Ever. Again. Well, maybe with a paper bag to put over your head.







]

If your kids tolerate shopping better than that, hey, more power to you. I never said that she should have left the store. Just that, in the past, I would have seen her LO's actions as misbehavior, and now I just saw it as the LO's attempts to communicate her dissatisfaction. At 2.5 years old, most LOs couldn't do much better.

That says nothing about whether the mama should have encouraged her to make the best of the situation, or have left, or whatever. That's a decision that's up to the mama.


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom* 
I'm also kinda wondering if it makes a big difference with 2 or more kids versus 1 child. Most people I know with very consensual living parenting styles have only 1 child, or 2 children spaced far apart (7+ years). Ds is only 3 months old and we've already had situations where he needs to leave, dd does not want to leave. OP, I get that you're looking at parenting and effectiveness differently, and that's great, but I'd also caution that your child is young yet and you only have 1, so don't count at any point on a particular "method" or even "mindset" being a panacea for all ages.









:

How in the world does acknowledging that children communicate their feelings through their actions equal a "very consensual living parenting style"?

I give up. I am done trying to explain my rationale for starting this thread.


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 
For me it's not only about always doing what they want right in that moment but helping them through when we can't do what they want because no matter how consentual we are we still have times we find it hard to compromise..that goes for the adults and the children in the family.

Friday is our shopping day. It's also play group day. Sometimes they have trouble with the shopping and it helps to remind them that we have to get this done quickly so we can get to playgroup. Occasionally they meltdown because we are not finished and I hug them and let them know I understand that it's hard to wait, while mommy gets teh groceries.

I am on my own with 4 kids. My dh is a long-haul truck driver so no matter I have to pick up food and run errands with kids in tow. It usually goes really well but sometimes it's tough on them and me.

OP..I thought you were more talking about the change in how you viewed things differently rather than judging the mom so much. I think I get what you were trying to say. That this mom seemed to be doing things the way you used to do them. It was just an observation on your part of a change in YOU rather than sitting in judgement of what the mom was doing. That's how I read things anyway.

I see people do things all the time that I observe to be traditional discipline. I often can see a different way of doing things. I believe the way I do things is better else I wouldn't be doing them. That's not so much a judgement as an observation.

It's like a gentle shift in perspective that goes along with the move towards gentler discipline.

Thanks.


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

I do hear you about the shopping thing. Check out the thread "I can never go grocery shopping again" That's my thread I started so I am stuck too. I just said sometimes you do what you gotta do and kids are gonna embarrass ya and they will, they are kids. I see where you are coming from though. I don't visit friends or go anywhere unnecessary when my two are crabby. They clearly don't want to go and it just gets worse if I do take them. I hear ya.


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *L&IsMama* 
Sometimes people don't have a choice, and have to take their kids shopping with them. Sometimes the kids don't particularly enjoy it. What choice do you have when you *have* to get something done, though?







:

Exactly.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 

And somehow I manage to have a partner, have 2 kids, have a job and get us all fed and dressed.









I'm happy for you.

Not everyone has the luxery of shopping alone. I VERY rarely do. Meanwhile, i have to buy food, once a week it's for work, so I can't just leave wihtout finishing, no matter what.

And a trip to a bookstore can be something you need to do. I might need a calandar, or a day planner, or a cookbook or parenting book, and I don't shop online.

I don't get all the judment on what is "neccesary" for someone else. Just worry about what you (general) do!


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ruhbehka* 
Just that, in the past, I would have seen her LO's actions as misbehavior, and now I just saw it as the LO's attempts to communicate her dissatisfaction.











Pretty much the crux of GD, as defined for this board.


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mytwogirls* 
I do hear you about the shopping thing. Check out the thread "I can never go grocery shopping again" That's my thread I started so I am stuck too. I just said sometimes you do what you gotta do and kids are gonna embarrass ya and they will, they are kids. I see where you are coming from though. I don't visit friends or go anywhere unnecessary when my two are crabby. They clearly don't want to go and it just gets worse if I do take them. I hear ya.

I just happened to read that thread and noticed it was you.
















My LO (17 mos) has a really hard time with grocery shopping, in particular. If I try to go alone with him, I can count on him:

- climbing out of the seat (or screaming/kicking/flailing nonstop, if buckled in)
- throwing everything out of the cart (if sitting in the big part of the cart)
- throwing fit after fit if being carried (and I mean every five steps through the store!)
- taking off running, or pulling all the cans off each shelf, if I let him walk
- running off while pushing the cart (full speed ahead!) or throwing himself on the floor screaming if I insist on steering or keeping him from flying away with the cart)
- kicking, biting, and screaming if I try to keep him in the sling for more than a minute or two

Hmm. Did I leave anything out?







You can imagine how impossible it is to try to actually _shop_ at the same time as trying to reign all of the above in.

I can't imagine what mamas with deployed husbands (or other long term away husbands) do, if they have a LO like mine. We'd eat nothing but chinese food for months.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I really understand what the OP is saying. And I understand that the people who feel like they have no choice but to interpret their very young children's communication as misbehavior (as in the original post) really do feel they have no choice.

Folks need a calendars and they can't print one for free off-line. Or find any other solution.

If you believe you have no choice, you don't, I get that.

I found I really do have a choice. And my kids aren't 7 years apart.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I found I really do have a choice. And my kids aren't 7 years apart.









Yes, me, too!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdahoMom* 
I just love these "I'm a better mom than you" threads.









I just love how, whenever people share how they've grown and changed, someone has to come on and tell them how "judgmental" they are. I agree with ruhbehka: The above quote sounds pretty judgmental and "I'm a better person than you"-ish.

The OP has shared how, in the past, she would've seen the child's behavior as something that needed to be "corrected" -- but the other day she saw the child's behavior as a means of communication. That's a huge paradigm-shift!

*I don't think anyone was implying that such a paradigm-shift is a 100% guarantee that our kids will never have a meltdown in a public place. And I definitely don't think anyone was saying that it's appropriate to look at a mother in a difficult situation, and judge her as not practicing gentle discipline, or not listening to her child.*

However, I DO think our views of children, human nature, and the parent-child relationship have a powerful effect on how we handle shopping trips and all the other activities of life.

For instance, if we have the view that "parents shouldn't bend to children's every whim," or that "children need to sacrifice for us sometimes, because we do so much for them" -- we may not even see it as good parenting to *try* to arrange our lives so that our little ones don't have to go shopping if they don't want to.

If, on the other hand, we see it as desirable to help the people we love to have the kind of lives they want, then we won't feel we're being lax as parents for, say, cutting a shopping trip short rather than making our kids stick it out so they can learn to deal with the boredom and frustration.

Therefore, I think the "don't bend to children's every whim" paradigm is more conducive to a view that "sometimes it's not possible for everyone to have what they want." Someone with this view is less likely to try to brainstorm solutions where everyone can have what they want (or even to think that getting what we want is good for character) -- which tends to result in a reality where there aren't very many options and it's always somebody's turn to "bite the bullet."

In contrast, the idea that it's *good* for people to get what they want is conducive to a view that we *can* find ways to achieve this. We may be momentarily too tired or stressed to keep looking at the situation from different angles until the best solution is found: we're only human. But since we see it as a good thing to help our children be happy, we're naturally going to be more open to thinking about other options -- which tends to result in a reality where our options are continually increasing and no one's having to "bite the bullet."

If anyone's feeling like this post is judgmental, I hope you'll go back and reread the bolded part!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
If you believe you have no choice, you don't, I get that.

Yes! And of course, brainstorming is usually the prerequisite to realizing how many choices we really have.

But, again, we're not as likely to *seriously* brainstorm if we see it as a good thing, and a positive learning experience, for kids to sometimes have to be dragged where they don't want to go.

Someone who sees it as a "positive learning experience" is liable to berate the parent who's always trying to brainstorm creative solutions that make everyone happy -- and to accuse the brainstorming parent of depriving her kids of the chance to "build character" by having to deal with difficult situations.


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## Xoe (Oct 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gargirl* 
Heh, for me bookstore trips are an outing I enjoy and if my 5 year old wants to be a bear about it then thats what he's going to do. I do lots of things I truly do not enjoy just because he enjoys them and he can return the favor on occasion.









:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gargirl* 
I do love the shift in perspective the OP had. It really is a different world when you really believe kids matter and their opinions count.









:

xoe


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## Xoe (Oct 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
...... If we eat cereal for dinner happy, it's better than a 4 course meal pissed at each other......

mind if i put this quote up in my kitchen? i can get mighty pissed if my elaborate cooking plans are interrupted, so i need the reminder!

xoe


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## swellmomma (Jan 1, 2004)

I am someone that has to bring my kids everywhere whether they like it or not. I am a single parent and can't just leave them home alone. SOmetimes it's the groery store, sometimes the mall sometimes a bookstore, which actually is needed as we are homeschoolers. I understand perfectly well when they do not want to be somewhere but I will not drop everything just because they "don't wanna". If they were sick or hurt etc then sure I would drop everything in a heart beat, but if they simply want to tantrum because they want to be somewhere else oh well, we will finish what we were there for. I don't think I will ever fully be into GD partly for this line of thinking. OVerall I am the parent they are th children, they do not get 100% say in what we do. FOr example, if we are at a bookstore and 2 kids want to be there, but 1 would rather be at the pet store, there is no way I am going to ahul them all out to appease the one jsut because they "don't wanna".

ETA: about cereal for dinner,t hat is great, but when I hit the grocery store it is because we truely are out of everything. I have anxiety when it comes to grocery shopping so I put it uoff as long as possible, by the time we go we are out of cereal, milk, fruit, veggies, bread etc if I leave the cart and go home with nothing becuase one of my kids doesn't want to be there we go hungry that night. Typically I have my groceries delivered to avoid this but it is not always possible.


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Someone who sees it as a "positive learning experience" is liable to berate the parent who's always trying to brainstorm creative solutions that make everyone happy -- and to accuse the brainstorming parent of depriving her kids of the chance to "build character" by having to deal with difficult situations.

I would hardly berate someone for that, but I do actually think that sometimes we have to do things in life we do not always enjoy. I want my kids to learn that, and to learn effective ways of handling their emotions when they have to do something they don't want to do. And I have found that when I brainstorm solutions to make everyone happy, the only ones who are usually happy are the kids. While there's nothing wrong with that, I simply cannot form my day to day schedule 100% around making sure my kids never get upset with me. It is impossible, for one, and I really have no desire to, tbh.







:


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

LOVE what you wrote mammal mama!

This especially resonates with me:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
In contrast, the idea that it's *good* for people to get what they want is conducive to a view that we *can* find ways to achieve this. We may be momentarily too tired or stressed to keep looking at the situation from different angles until the best solution is found: we're only human. But since we see it as a good thing to help our children be happy, we're naturally going to be more open to thinking about other options -- which tends to result in a reality where our options are continually increasing and no one's having to "bite the bullet."


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I haven't tried the delivery thing, but I know folks who swear by it. One grocery store here will shop for you for $5 and you can pick it up at the door. Haven't done that either, but I can see it working. One person has said the $5it costs, she saves because the store shoppers stick to her list and don't impulse buy!!

I'm not criticizing anybody, but I think a feel-good thread about how amazing it feels when your perspective shifts is a great thing. Thank you to the OP for posting.


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## swellmomma (Jan 1, 2004)

I pay $10 to have it delivered to my door at a time that works for us during a 2 hour window. What I usualy do is pop on a movie at the start of that window, by the time the movie is over, my groceries are here and put away. Only downside is no shopping for great deals. SO when our grocery store had dollar days in concjection with 10% Tuesday, so I got things like a bag of carrots for 0.90 etc I could not pass up those deals for delivery from another store, and had to take all 4 kids on that day to get the savings no matter what


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## Writerbird (Jun 1, 2007)

Mammal_mama, I think you put it very well, and your phrasing was free of judgment. You have a rare gift, and I hope you can tell I mean that sincerely.









It sums up fairly succinctly why this board has so much... drama, and why I don't think I can do GD.

As someone whose kid is currently on the inside and therefore perfect in every way (







), I categorically refuse to choose a parenting method at this time. I need to see what his personality is like before I choose a method, for heaven's sake. But I am trying to do my research in advance, and figure out what I can do/live with/learn. Obviously GD is something I needed to learn more about before making that call, since more mainstream methods are all around me. Lurking here has been... educational, and I've been forming opinions.

I read the OP, and after all my reading here, I too immediately thought "that small child is trying to communicate that he wants to leave the bookstore, and feels unheard." It seems like this thread split into two camps - those who thought that the mother and child should therefore leave the store, and those who thought the mother and child should complete the errand.

I want my son to be happy and successful in a world that is neither gentle nor fair. It usually IS someone's turn to bite the bullet when it comes to unpleasant but necessary tasks. If I can teach him to do so with grace, without being a doormat, I will have succeeded at the only thing I'll ever do that really matters. It seems like teaching him from a very early age that his needs, preferences, and whims are always the final veto will set him up to fail in life, and to be a very unhappy person in general. That may not be the intent of GD, but it sounds, to me, as though that is the way it is practiced by the most zealous of the method's adherents.

I wish there was a discipline forum with a bit of a happy medium, because I expect that's where most of us fall.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I'm not saying that it's always easy -- and I fully realize that some parents are more stretched than others.

I've just found, in my own life, that deciding a particular state is *desirable*, makes me more inclined to try to figure out ways to make it *possible*. If I don't think it's even *desirable*, then I'm way more inclined to dismiss it as *not possible*.

Why would I want to make something possible, if it's not even something I want in the first place?

I certainly wouldn't look at a parent in a difficult situation, and assume that the parent was any less GD, or any less in-tune with her children, than I am. Children have a wide range of different temperaments, and I also agree with the poster who said we shouldn't try to evaluate, for someone else, whether a particular shopping-trip is really "necessary."

For me, the issue is whether *I'm* willing to see things from my children's perspectives in difficult situations, and whether I view the range of available choices as finite or infinite: It's not about whether someone on the outside thinks we made a bad choice by coming to the store when we did, or thinks I'm an insensitive parent or my child wouldn't be having a meltdown.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Writerbird* 
It seems like this thread split into two camps - those who thought that the mother and child should therefore leave the store, and those who thought the mother and child should complete the errand.

Don't forget those who thought he shouldn't have been there in the first place









I think on any given day my decision on what would happen if that were me and my child at the bookstore would be different.

If I had driven specifically to pick up a certain book or a book I had ordered and lived far away from the store I would continue on and get the book all the while helping my child with her emotions about the whole thing.

If I were just browsing the bookstore, with no particular reason for being there except to see if anything were on sale I would probably say "ok baby, let's go"

If someone was sick, there was a snowstorm or something..or if baby hadn't slept and was particularly irritable..maybe I would choose not to go at all

Sometimes my needs are greater. I need to not go to town more than once a week because I need to stay within our budget so that we can eat and I need to read for my sanity, particularly in this cold weather when quite often we are isolated by snowstorms etc. So if I made it to town, my book was in and I was at the store my child's needs would have to wait a moment.

It's always a balance.

and just because my child's wants/needs don't always get met right then and there doesn't mean I don't discipline gently.

And I understand that the world isn't fair...what I try to teach my kids is that it "ought to be fair" and part of that is sometime you have to wait and I have to do something.

Of course it's easier now that my children are older(my baby is 2)

I also do make sure they are fed, dry, have slept well, have something to play with etc. when I do make those excursions that might be less than pleasant for them.

I am also the mom you will see running through the mall with the stroller pretending it's a rocket ship to mars or a runaway train. Yep...I will do anything to make them happy









I always get kind of sad when I hear people say "I can't do GD" because of something they read and just don't particularly agree with.

Gentle discipline is simply disciplining gently. That's all. I think with the right tools and respect for our own personal boundaries combined with a respect for our children as human beings we can all do that.

It's just going to look different to different people is all.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:

. . . I do actually think that sometimes we have to do things in life we do not always enjoy. I want my kids to learn that, and to learn effective ways of handling their emotions when they have to do something they don't want to do.
I just want pluck this idea out and kick it around.

I don't want my kids to learn that they have to do things they don't want to. I want them to be 100% in charge of their bodies and minds and not do anything they are not willing to do just b/c someone else tells them "they have to."

I think "have to" is sort of "victim speak." When I say "I have to do xzy..." I've taken my responsibility, choice, and free will out of the matter. And there are not any times I can think of that I've TRULY had to do something against my will.

Sometimes I don't feel like doing the mountain of dishes. But I don't HAVE TO do them. I choose to. Because I'd rather have a clean kitchen. I may not be dancing around singing a happy song while I do them, but it IS a choice. Shoot I could throw them all out and buy more. Or switch to paper. Or eat out lots. Or I could decide that I'm done with the thing and get a one way ticket to St. Bart's.

I don't choose to do those things. But I could.







And that paradigm shift gives me a little less resentment and self-pity and martyrdom in my kitchen around 7 pm every night.









Choices are good. Better than "have to" I think. "Have to" seems like a burden I don't want my kids to "have to" have.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Writerbird* 
It seems like this thread split into two camps - those who thought that the mother and child should therefore leave the store, and those who thought the mother and child should complete the errand.

I definitely don't think those are the only two choices. There are ways to "hear" a child and make her discomfort more comfortable that don't necessarily involve bailing on the errand.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swellmomma* 
I understand perfectly well when they do not want to be somewhere but I will not drop everything just because they "don't wanna". If they were sick or hurt etc then sure I would drop everything in a heart beat, but if they simply want to tantrum because they want to be somewhere else oh well, we will finish what we were there for. *I don't think I will ever fully be into GD partly for this line of thinking.* OVerall I am the parent they are th children, they do not get 100% say in what we do. FOr example, if we are at a bookstore and 2 kids want to be there, but 1 would rather be at the pet store, there is no way I am going to ahul them all out to appease the one jsut because they "don't wanna".

.

I really liked your post and ITA except the part I bolded. I believe it's 100% possible to do both. It's just how one defines GD that's causing the differences. Personally, I know I am always gentle with my child. GD isn't the same as consensual living. Granted, I don't agree with the way the mother described in the OP was handling her toddler, but I don't agree that if you don't leave a store every time your child cries you're into "traditional discipline" whatever that means. I do take my child's feelings into consideration, and I don't view tantruming toddlers as misbehaving, but I think sometimes it's a good thing for them to realize that they can tantrum, mama will keep shopping and being nice to them, and the world will keep spinning. I know if I was a toddler, if I was guaranteed a ticket home every time I threw a fit, I'd sure catch on quickly! The behaviors that were listed for the 17 month old sounds very normal to me, and I used to run a toddler room at a daycare- hey, it's really hard sometimes. But I'm glad I've always brought DD everywhere and she's learned, slowly, over time, to deal with short feelings of frustration and not let them turn into overwhelming angry tantrums- unless she's tired, or hungry, of course. She loves the bookstore though, so what do I know


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Writerbird,

We cross-posted!








I just wanted to let you know that GD was something I grew into, as I grew as a mother and got to know my children. When my oldest started asking me, a few years ago, "What privilege will I lose if I do this or that?" -- I finally realized something was breaking down, because we'd had a much better connection when she was a toddler and I just explained things to her: she seemed much more interested in hearing my perspectives then.

So I stopped the punishments and started working to get that in-tune-ness back, and I'm glad I did!

Gentle Discipline is a very broad term, which (I believe) at the heart simply means: viewing our children as little people who *want* to live in positive, mutually beneficial relationships with others, but simply need our help and guidance to be able to navigate the world and deal with difficult emotions. In other words, we believe that gentle guidance is what children need -- and that hitting and other punishments are harmful and counterproductive to our goals.

Therefore, the umbrella of Gentle Discipline covers people with a wide range of different perspectives, when it comes to things like children's autonomy. I'm attempting to live consensually with my children, but many parents who practice Gentle Discipline don't see this issue the same way that I do. There's room for all of us!


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

So you know, it's 7 pm and I'm taking a moment of self care before I get on those dishes........









And I was thinking how this thread reminded me of Jan Hunt's article, A New Way of Seeing Children, where she gives an example of a child getting antsy waiting in a long line at an observatory.
http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/new_way.html

In part:

Quote:

A child's rambunctiousness in public embarrasses parents, because our society expects children to remain silent and to behave as though they are mature adults - a most unrealistic and uncaring expectation. Expecting the impossible can of course only lead to disappointment and frustration for both parents and children. Just like adults, children feel most cooperative when treated with kindness, understanding, and faith in their inherent good intentions. No adult feels cooperative when treated in a threatening, angry way by a spouse, employer, or friend. In fact, we feel hurt and resentful when treated that way, and far from cooperating, we often resist or retaliate. Why then do we expect children to respond with good behavior when treated with anger, threats, or punishment?
I like this sort of problem solving thinking:

Quote:

As a child advocate, what could I have said to Aaron's mother? I might have validated Aaron's feelings and offered a solution to his mother. To Aaron, I might have said, "It's so hard to wait when you're looking forward to something!" To his mother, I could have said "You know, airlines have the right idea; they always board children first. Why don't I ask if you could go to the head of the line?" I could have offered help: "It's so hard for children to wait in long lines. If you'd like to take him for a walk, I'll be glad to hold your place." Or I might simply have encouraged her: "It's so hard for a child to be quiet and patient at the end of a long day, waiting to do something exciting. I think he's doing really well!"
Many options to "hear" the child, support him, and seek out solutions which leave neither party to "bite the bullet" or remain miserable/uncomfortable.









OK, choosing to go do my dishes now, so I can relax on the couch with some Celebrity Apprentice later!


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Thanks for posting that Monkey's Mom


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

What's wrong with a parent taking a child shopping???







I don't get it.

I don't remember my parents not going shopping because their children didn't have it at the top of their lists of favourite things to do that day.... and I sure don't plan on becoming a shut-in once our baby is born and our future children arrive.









Yes, shopping is over-stimulating and confusing sometimes, even for adults! But that's how we gather food and supplies for our day to day lives, and children need to learn how to function in our world. Or, if they're not interested in learning about shopping, errands, etc, that day, they need to learn how to cope with things that are tedious or boring.

I find it odd that some folk think that children should be sheltered from every single thing that they aren't thrilled about. How are they going to learn patience and adjusting to things that aren't immediatly thrilling, etc??

I can't count the number of times I waited in line at the BANK with my Mom. How boring!!!

Did I scream and kick and flail and demand that I be entertained? No. Did Mom wait at home until a neighbour could watch us before she could leave the house and go to the bank? NO.

Mom just said to us: "We're going into the bank and it will probably be boring, but you MUST be quiet and not run around." So, I took some of the deposit slips and drew on them, making my own money and cheques and such. In other words, I dealt with it, as my parent EXPECTED me to. Jeez, and this was with a five year old and THREE two year olds, with no spanking!









I think there's such a thing as expecting too LITTLE of children. Life is not always going to be perfect and tailored to their whims and preferences, they live as part of a functioning family, not little Kings and Queens, and shopping and errands need to be done!

Now, don't even get me started on CHORES!







I'll get my parents investigated for child labour!

Trin.

PS: MamaOutThere, I really wasn't meaning to pick on you, it was the general topic that you raised that I was responding to, not you personally. It's often discussed in GD on MDC so I thought it was cool to chime in, as it didn't seem like dog-piling.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Double post!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty* 
What's wrong with a parent taking a child shopping???

Absolutely nothing!

Quote:









I don't get it.
Well, it would be presumptuous for me to tell someone else whether they "get it" or not -- but I sure don't perceive this discussion as being about whether or not parents and children can/should go shopping together. Of course, our perceptions of any discussion are going to be influenced by the paradigms we each held going into the discussion. So you may get things I don't get, and vice-versa.

Quote:

I don't remember my parents not going shopping because their children didn't have it at the top of their lists of favourite things to do that day....
I don't think anyone here has been advocating parents "not going shopping" (or not doing any of the other things that parents need to do or enjoy doing), based on their children not having "it at the top of their lists." Some of us have simply been advocating a creative approach whereby we look for other options besides the parents being martyrs, or the parents dragging the children along when they don't want to be there.

Quote:

and I sure don't plan on becoming a shut-in once our baby is born and our future children arrive.








I'm not a shut-in, either! -- though I often go for long periods of time where I don't feel a need to venture outside of my house and yard. If I feel a need, I certainly do find a way to get out there -- but I work to do it in such a way that my children are happy, too (and it's actually no fun for me otherwise).

Quote:

Yes, shopping is over-stimulating and confusing sometimes, even for adults! But that's how we gather food and supplies for our day to day lives, and children need to learn how to function in our world.
In my experience, children are intensely interested in learning "how to function in our world." They just do better when they have the freedom to explore the adult world more or less on their own terms -- in other words, to break away and focus on something else when they feel the need.

As an example, I recall Jean Liedloff talked in _The Continuum Concept_ about how the South American Indians she lived among let the little girls join in with the manioc-grating as they got the urge, going off to play when they tired of it, without any repercussions from the adult women, or any insistence that they finish what they started. Yet at some point, all the girls grew to fully participate in adult society. By choice.

Of course, I'm sure the mamas carried their little ones with them to bathe or gather food without asking "permission," but just stopped mid-task to nurse as the children expressed the need. I think in our culture, there tends to be a mindset of "You just nursed before we came into the store, now you can wait 'til we get to the car ... or til we get home" -- especially with older babies or toddlers. "I'm going to finish what I set out to do -- then I'll tend to your needs."

We (in Western culture) are generally not as comfortable with taking care of things in little chunks, interspersed with breaks to nurse or just stop and play. I'm not speaking for every single person, I'm just saying it seems to be a prevalent attitude.

Quote:

Or, if they're not interested in learning about shopping, errands, etc, that day, they need to learn how to cope with things that are tedious or boring.

I find it odd that some folk think that children should be sheltered from every single thing that they aren't thrilled about. How are they going to learn patience and adjusting to things that aren't immediatly thrilling, etc??
All I can say is that there are other ways of looking at this. In my own experience, I see my children developing patience as they work to learn skills that they're interested in. As monkey's mom has mentioned, we sometimes *choose* to do things we don't feel like doing -- not because we're forced but because we like the results of having them done.

One of the things that has helped me to enjoy housework more, is the realization that I'm free to approach it in my own way, in a way that's enjoyable to me. After so many years of hearing things like "Work first, play later," there's this lump of guilt that wells up when I decide to play now, work later. I keep having to re-condition myself to feel okay about it, and I'd like for my children to associate work with joy and sense of accomplishment, rather than guilt.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Rebecca / OP:

I _*totally*_ can see why you started this thread, and I think it's a really interesting discussion to have!! Don't feel bad!







I hope my post didn't seem like I was beating up on you.

I've had a similar shift in perspective as I've matured. I used to think that little ones in situations that you described were just "acting up" and now I know that a lot of the time, (not _all_ of the time) but most of the time, they are trying to be HEARD.

And, interestingly, I had the second shift in views that you did too, I now (being pregnant) try to be compassionate towards the parent in the situation too, rather than making snap judgements. It's all about personal growth, and I think it's really neat that you brought it up in a thread!









Trin.

Added:

Mammal Mamma, I was commenting on the one line from one poster who wondered why a parent would take a child shopping. She said "sorry" for it, and while I certainly didn't think an apology was needed, I found the idea interesting, and thus I posted. I'm just reading through the rest of the posts now.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
I don't want my kids to learn that they have to do things they don't want to. I want them to be 100% in charge of their bodies and minds and not do anything they are not willing to do just b/c someone else tells them "they have to."

I think "have to" is sort of "victim speak." When I say "I have to do xzy..." I've taken my responsibility, choice, and free will out of the matter.

(snip)

Choices are good. Better than "have to" I think. "Have to" seems like a burden I don't want my kids to "have to" have.









(snip)

There are ways to "hear" a child and make her discomfort more comfortable that don't necessarily involve bailing on the errand.

Exactly!


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty* 
Yes, shopping is over-stimulating and confusing sometimes, even for adults! But that's how we gather food and supplies for our day to day lives, and children need to learn how to function in our world. Or, if they're not interested in learning about shopping, errands, etc, that day, they need to learn how to cope with things that are tedious or boring.

I find it odd that some folk think that children should be sheltered from every single thing that they aren't thrilled about. How are they going to learn patience and adjusting to things that aren't immediatly thrilling, etc??

I can't count the number of times I waited in line at the BANK with my Mom. How boring!!!

Did I scream and kick and flail and demand that I be entertained? No. Did Mom wait at home until a neighbour could watch us before she could leave the house and go to the bank? NO.

Mom just said to us: "We're going into the bank and it will probably be boring, but you MUST be quiet and not run around." So, I took some of the deposit slips and drew on them, making my own money and cheques and such. In other words, I dealt with it, as my parent EXPECTED me to. Jeez, and this was with a five year old and THREE two year olds, with no spanking!









*I think there's such a thing as expecting too LITTLE of children. Life is not always going to be perfect and tailored to their whims and preferences, they live as part of a functioning family, not little Kings and Queens, and shopping and errands need to be done!*

A really big







:


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## 93085 (Oct 11, 2007)

Wow, I had no idea this was such a sexy thread. My girls *love* to go grocery shopping, so I guess that means that I kick all of y'all's butts as a parent, huh? Free samples and great big toy cars to ride in; what's not to love?

Honestly, they're very hit-or-miss with shopping. They love bookstores. Like Target well enough but they tend to drive ME a bit crazy when we go there together. I'd rather stick pencils in my eyes than go clothes shopping with them. And if they were tired and/or hungry they wouldn't even want to be at FAO Schwartz with Barbie and the Disney Princesses and the American Girls all holding one big honking tea party.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Writerbird* 
It seems like this thread split into two camps - those who thought that the mother and child should therefore leave the store, and those who thought the mother and child should complete the errand.

I disagree--it seemed to me like it was split between those who thought that the child needed to go home as soon as possible, and those who thought he shouldn't have been there in the first place. That shopping is too "overstimulating" for toddlers. And I think a lot of people bristled at the latter idea. Lots of people, as has been observed, have no choice but to take their kids shopping, and many others of us shop with our kids regularly (though God knows not _always_) with pleasure and harmony.


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 

As monkey's mom has mentioned, we sometimes *choose* to do things we don't feel like doing -- not because we're forced but because we like the results of having them done.

I have to disagree. My 3 and 4 year old are not old enough to make certain choices, based on results, yet. If I left those choices up to them, My 3 year old would have been dead from being hit by too many cars to count (because after all, he _swore_ he absolutely _wanted_ to be hit by a car) both kids would have rotted teeth from lack of brushing and dental visits, and probably some sort of parasitic disease from begging and screaming for me to stop and let them pick up roadkill while driving down busy roads.

Do you see where I am coming from? My kids do not yet have the maturity, or rational thought processes to make decisions for themselves, whether the results are good or bad. That's why _I_ either help them make the decisions, or I make the decisions for them. In the above examples, I had to make the decision to not let my 3 year old run into an oncoming car, to hold them down to brush teeth every night, and to explain to them why it is not healthy to pick up animal carcasses.

So I suppose we do choose to do things based on the results. I choose to make decisions for my childs well-being that they are not mature enough to make yet.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

"Mommy, let's pick-up the dead skunk!!"

I can't _wait_ until I get these suggestions.







That's going to be the entertaining part of being a parent!

Trin.


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 

*if we have the view that "parents shouldn't bend to children's every whim," or that "children need to sacrifice for us sometimes, because we do so much for them"*

In contrast, the idea that it's *good* for people to get what they want is conducive to a view that we *can* find ways to achieve this. We may be momentarily too tired or stressed to keep looking at the situation from different angles until the best solution is found: we're only human. But since we see it as a good thing to help our children be happy, we're naturally going to be more open to thinking about other options -- which tends to result in a reality where our options are continually increasing and no one's having to "bite the bullet."


I don't understand how you can equate what I said with wanting children to "sacrifice" because of some parental feeling of entitlement.







I don't see the connection.

The underlined is the main difference in how I view things. I refuse to hold myself responsible for helping my DS feel happy every time he gets upset. _He_ chooses his reaction to situations, not me. I don't try to control his emotions. If he has a valid reason for being upset, I will definately talk with him, sympathize and comfort him. If I feel it's an _over_reaction, or if he's simply being selfish, I'll say so. For example, I'm not one to try to compromise and give out hugs when my DS is bemoaning the terrible injustice of not owning the entire Lego catalogue.







To do so would be enabling greed. My goal is to raise an unselfish and mature adult, not to have a constantly contented child.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

L&Ismama...you quote mammal_mama where she talks about we as adults get to choose and you say you disagree, then go on to talk about how your children don't have the ability to make choices.

I am not sure I understand what you mean.









Maybe you could explain it again. I am not sure how adults having the choice to do things they don't want to do and how that relates to the rest of the paragraph about children not having the maturity to make those choices.

I might just be reading it all wrong...going back to review.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *L&IsMama* 
I had to make the decision to not let my 3 year old run into an oncoming car, to hold them down to brush teeth every night, and to explain to them why it is not healthy to pick up animal carcasses.

So I suppose we do choose to do things based on the results. I choose to make decisions for my childs well-being that they are not mature enough to make yet.

I agree with the second part and disagree with the first--just because of the "had to"/choice difference.

You didn't *have* to hold your kids down to brush their teeth. You *chose* to do that based on a variety of things--all well intentioned, I'm *certain.* Lots of people CHOOSE not to do that. Maybe it's b/c they don't care about dental health, or they're inattentive parents, or they're willing to sing to make it more agreeable (NOT that you haven't tried that...just an example), or any number of other things that may or may not result in rotted teeth.

But it's a slippery slope, I think, when we get into that, "Well, it HAD to be done," when we're discussing a child getting the short end of a stick.

I know many of us were treated, as children, in ways that were "for our own good." But the relationship betw. us and our parents was damaged in the process.

For me, when I'm entering that "have to" or "for their own good" state of mind, I'm not focused on the moment and the way my child and I are connected in that moment. I'm looking past them and our relationship and focusing on a mindset or an outcome that may never materialize.

Responding to, and meeting, my child's needs is paramount to me. If, for whatever reason, my kids are not coping well in a situation, then I'm going to do something about that. Not just approach it from a perspective that they need to deal with it and consider it a lesson in getting used to life or hardship or whatever. If I took my elderly father to a store and his legs wore out and he was unable to cope with the situation I would do something about that, too.

It doesn't mean that I never take them out. It doesn't mean that they can't or don't handle being in a store the vast majority of the time. But there are times, where I know we have reached the limit and they are expressing that and my *goal* is to respond to them in a way that acknowledges their situation and change it up. And most of the time now, with my 6 and 2.5 yr. olds, it's to ask them to hang with me for another little bit and would they like a drink or to sit in the cart or something like that. They are most accomodating when I ask them for a little bit more. And I'm starting to think it's b/c they're sure that when it's their turn to ask, it's going to come back around. Modelling consideration goes a long way, I've found. "Suck it up" comes around just as easy, I've also found, in some of my not so finer moments.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Writerbird* 
It seems like this thread split into two camps - those who thought that the mother and child should therefore leave the store, and those who thought the mother and child should complete the errand.

I am quite possibly in my own camp. I don't thing the thread was about the other mother at all. I think the OP was sharing the amazing feeling one gets when one realizes that that one is now free of one's previously held beliefs that one's children's behavior must be controlled and conformed to a place where children's behavior is viewed as communication that it is possible to understand and respond to. (My goodness that's a long sentence.)

That what I got out of it. I think the OP identified with the mom...that in her previous way of thinking she would have been there.

My kids go shopping. They like it usually. They pick out what they want to eat for the week. They look for bargains. They discuss which cheese sample is better. They are 3 and 7.

But they both went through periods when they were younger where it was just to difficult for them to shop. So we worked something else out.

They've also both been through periods when they couldn't really eat out. The 3 year old is only loving it at particular restaurants right now. So we don't often take her out to eat. Am I worried that she'll never learn to behave in a restaurant. No, the 7 year old went through the same thing.

Giving young children some space to go through phases works better than I would have imagined. And no particularly dire consequences have ensured so far.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mz_libbie22* 
I'm not one to try to compromise and give out hugs when my DS is bemoaning the terrible injustice of not owning the entire Lego catalogue.







To do so would be enabling greed.

I think I see the difference in our persepective. My kids can have a hugs 24/7 if they want one or dozens. From where I sit, hugs never made anybody greedy.

If they want the whole Lego catalogue, I will sit down with them and do the math on how many allowances it would take to get the whole thing. And figure out how long it is to the next gift-getting events. And talk about how much fun legos are. And think about maybe if two friends brought over their legos and we had a big lego gathering that would be almost like owning the whole catalogue. And figure out how many days it is until the planetarium is going to put on Lego-palooza. And.....

And then I would offer to dump all the legos on a big sheet and build with them. And tell them that I just love it that she enjoys legos so much.

Then I get a contented kid who is likely to grow up to be a pretty cool grownup. It's not an either or.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

chfriend..I think we are in the same camp. I agree that the OP wasn't about the other mom, but about the OP and her observations and feelings.

My kids also like shopping. All 4 of them. Personally, when it all comes right down to it, I don't like shopping much. But it has to be done. So I work really hard to set it up for success.

My kids also went through stages of being more cooperative and less cooperative..wanting to run around etc.

I don't like shopping but I work hard at making it enjoyable, by making it about enjoying each others company rather than about the "chore" that it is.

So those times when the kids let me know with their response that they are less than happy with what's happening I listen. Depending on the situation I help them through.

I don't think in black and white though..I am a very much about compromise and flexibility. With everybody including my children.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I think I see the difference in our persepective. My kids can have a hugs 24/7 if they want one or dozens. From where I sit, hugs never made anybody greedy.

If they want the whole Lego catalogue, I will sit down with them and do the math on how many allowances it would take to get the whole thing. And figure out how long it is to the next gift-getting events. And talk about how much fun legos are. And think about maybe if two friends brought over their legos and we had a big lego gathering that would be almost like owning the whole catalogue. And figure out how many days it is until the planetarium is going to put on Lego-palooza. And.....

And then I would offer to dump all the legos on a big sheet and build with them. And tell them that I just love it that she enjoys legos so much.

Then I get a contented kid who is likely to grow up to be a pretty cool grownup. It's not an either or.









:


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I'm with the chfriend and allgirls camp! In fact, I figured something must have gotten edited out of the thread b/c it didn't make a whole lot of sense to me that folks thought it was anything else.









I hope drooling over the LL Bean catalog doesn't make me greedy. I don't buy it. But it sure is fun to fantasize and browse.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
I'm with the chfriend and allgirls camp! In fact, I figured something must have gotten edited out of the thread b/c it didn't make a whole lot of sense to me that folks thought it was anything else.









I hope drooling over the LL Bean catalog doesn't make me greedy. I don't buy it. But it sure is fun to fantasize and browse.

that's the kind of shopping I like. Catalogues and online...no lines


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I haven't tried the delivery thing, but I know folks who swear by it. One grocery store here will shop for you for $5 and you can pick it up at the door. Haven't done that either, but I can see it working. One person has said the $5it costs, she saves because the store shoppers stick to her list and don't impulse buy!!

I dream of having my groceries delivered. Alas, no one will deliver to my zip code. DH even called several stores that deliver to neighboring zip codes and asked if he could pay double to have his delivered. No dice.







:

They do have that order-and-pick-up option, which I've considered, but we have to shop around food allergies and that makes it really hard, especially if they are out of an item, choose the wrong type of an item, or if I am looking for something along the lines of "a loaf of whole wheat bread that doesn't contain milk or traces of it." They don't have that option to "check off" on the website order form.


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I think I see the difference in our persepective. My kids can have a hugs 24/7 if they want one or dozens. From where I sit, hugs never made anybody greedy.

If they want the whole Lego catalogue, I will sit down with them and do the math on how many allowances it would take to get the whole thing. And figure out how long it is to the next gift-getting events. And talk about how much fun legos are. And think about maybe if two friends brought over their legos and we had a big lego gathering that would be almost like owning the whole catalogue. And figure out how many days it is until the planetarium is going to put on Lego-palooza. And.....

And then I would offer to dump all the legos on a big sheet and build with them. And tell them that I just love it that she enjoys legos so much.

Then I get a contented kid who is likely to grow up to be a pretty cool grownup. It's not an either or.


Well, that's how things usually go here too. And I have never in my life _refused_ my DS a hug if he asked, just to be clear.









But I _do_ have a low tolerance for whining for "stuff."

Especially in stores, talking about each and every thing DS decides he wants and what would have to be done to attain it would be







to me and would take _way_ more time than I have. Like lots of kids, my DS wants wants wants and sometimes you just have to say "No, *you don't need that*. period. I think it's good for kids to hear that once in awhile. Am I wrong?


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty* 
And, interestingly, I had the second shift in views that you did too, I now (being pregnant) try to be compassionate towards the parent in the situation too, rather than making snap judgements. It's all about personal growth, and I think it's really neat that you brought it up in a thread!



















Actually, this thread is kind of making me smile because just this morning I was telling DH that I'd decided to give up judgmentalism for Lent this year.







Not to be perfect at it, but to rephrase judgmental comments in a more empathetic light, and to stop my thought trains and put them in reverse when I'm thinking judgmental lines of thought.

[This morning, a good friend and I were talking about how one of the most difficult things in AP circles is avoiding building up your own confidence in choosing non-mainstream parenting practices by denigrating parents who make different decisions. And how it's difficult to raise empathetic children if they frequently hear harsh assessments of others' intentions coming from our lips. That got me thinking about making an active project of it, for the Lenten season.]


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
As an example, I recall Jean Liedloff talked in _The Continuum Concept_ about how the South American Indians she lived among let the little girls join in with the manioc-grating as they got the urge, going off to play when they tired of it, without any repercussions from the adult women, or any insistence that they finish what they started. Yet at some point, all the girls grew to fully participate in adult society. By choice.

Right. And their other choice would have been what? Law school? A job at McDonald's?

I'm sorry, I just don't think that equates. Of course they joined in grating the manioc. It was that or starve to death.


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
Right. And their other choice would have been what? Law school? A job at McDonald's?

I'm sorry, I just don't think that equates. Of course they joined in grating the manioc. It was that or starve to death.

But is choosing to participate in adult society really so different, in our culture?

You pretty much have to work to live today, as well. I would guess that you can choose to be a lazy manioc grater just as easily as a lazy employee elsewhere, and your end result is likely to be either a life where others resent you, or a hand-to-mouth existence...


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
Right. And their other choice would have been what? Law school? A job at McDonald's? I'm sorry, I just don't think that equates. Of course they joined in grating the manioc. It was that or starve to death.


I think the choice was to participate in society and become a part of it or not. Different societies have different choices.

Ours has the MacDonald's and Law school choice, theirs was simpler.

The point that is trying to be made here is that they became functioning members of their society and the adults of the SA Indians had the confidence that it would happen so they didn't push them when they were little, never encouraged them to finish things etc yet they STILL matured into capable adults.

I think it does equate.

And as children it wasn't "grate the manoic or starve" they were fed even if they only helped a bit. They just developed a sense of responsibility as they matured just by being with the adults around them who modelled that sense of responsibility.

It's interesting that's for sure.

Thanks for sharing that Mammal_mama


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mz_libbie22* 
But I _do_ have a low tolerance for whining for "stuff."

Especially in stores, talking about each and every thing DS decides he wants and what would have to be done to attain it would be







to me and would take _way_ more time than I have. Like lots of kids, my DS wants wants wants and sometimes you just have to say "No, *you don't need that*. period. I think it's good for kids to hear that once in awhile. Am I wrong?

My kids know they don't need everything. They are aware that the house can only hold so much. And that if there is too much stuff in it, it's hard to find the thing you want to play with.

I'm not the faucet they turn on and off to get stuff, so they rarely whine about it. If they want something, I will talk to them about how to get it. Or explain why I think it's not a great idea to get that. (Stuff that offends me. Great opportunity to discuss my values. )Or about how they seem kind of young for that.

And I listen to them. My parents were very big into that need/want distinction. Honestly, one needs very very little, as I know from growing up in a family with one income and 6 closely-spaced children. You need a couple of sets of play clothes, 5-7 pairs of underwear, 5-7 pairs of socks, one or two pairs of shoes, 2 dresses for church, 1 school jumper and two shirts, a bed with a set of linens, a desk, a light, a trashcan, 3 small meals, 1 or 2 snacks, trips to the library, blocks, books and balls. Maybe a doll if you were a girl.

My mom grew up without everything she needed, so thought we were greedy to want things. It made it complicated for me to want things and feel I deserved them as an adult.

I got some of what I wanted around birthdays and holidays. But expressing want in a store completely stressed my mom out. I got a very very tiny allowance. My kids get a virtual kid fortune.

So, I've moved away from the want/need dicotomy. I want my kids to get what they want and am willing to help them figure out which things they want enough to do something to get. So my 7 year old knows if they get *this* thing, then later when they want *that* thing, they might have already spent their allowance and have to start over again or have a yard sale or think about selling on ebay (so far all talk) or trade a friend or share or ......
My 3 year old is not there yet. She mostly wants stuff that belongs to her sister. They developed a system of "checking things out" of each others rooms, complete with due dates and renewals, with no intervention or suggestion from us. All they get from us is "When we share, there's a lot more interesting stuff to do."

The power is in their hands. I don't say to my kids, "You don't need that." They often say to me, "I don't need that."

Maybe they are just generous hearted by nature. They really are nice people. But I have found that , like monkey mom, both the generous messages and the "suck it up" messages I've given my kid have come back around on occasion!


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Re. "you don't need that."

I think there are many different ways to say that, you know.

I've heard parents in the toy aisle say that in a shaming, scolding way that seems to say, "How dare you even ASK for that."

I don't think kids need to hear THAT. Eeek.

I think there might be a much gentler delivery that wouldn't make me cringe, but I'm still not sure there isn't an even better way to handle it. I'm leery of telling people what they want and need. How would I know?

Maybe the kid has a plan in his head to build something, and that toy would be the necessary part to carry it off. Yet, I say, "You don't need that." I'm clearly wrong. And I'm shutting down, rather than building up, dialogue and a cooperative spirit between us.

If a friend came into my house and started telling me that I didn't need my computer, or my microwave, or my houseplants, or my crafting stuff....and behind that message there was a thought that I was greedy for looking over catalogs and wanting more craft supplies......well, that probably wouldn't make for a very comfortable, bonding afternoon for us. And I'd likely feel judged and hurt and shamed.







I imagine kids might react the same.

I don't think scarcity creates generosity. Quite the opposite. I think scarcity creates feelings of "not enough" and "need more" and "better hold onto to this tight!" Hence the generation of Depression era folks who hold onto everything generations later b/c one day "they might need it."

So does that mean I advocate buying everything your kids ask for? No. Not at all.

But I do think it's just as easy to say, "Hmmm...that DOES look cool!" with a smile, as it is to say, "You don't need that."

And it takes you out of the equation as the roadblock to the kid getting the thing, or as the arbitrator of what other people need or not.

When I've got the money, I do buy my kids lots of things. When I don't have the money, I don't. And they understand that. ANd when it comes time to sort through the toys and give to others they fill bag after bag--happily, while talking about how nice it will be for another child to play with these things. As we speak there is a huge pile of toys they've picked out to sell, and another huge box of toys to leave at the local dumpster where families routinely sift through the trash.

My kids are generous. (Shoot, the 6 yr. old just offered to give us the $44 in his piggy bank rather than buy video games b/c he knows we are in a lean period, financially.) They've been given lots and lots. And they're still generous and not greedy. So, you know, it is possible to not deny them and not tell them that they don't need stuff and *still* have them be generous and not greedy.

Doesn't mean you have to do it my way, obviously, but it's there to prove that "oldschool" parenting paradigm has some exceptions.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mz_libbie22* 
I refuse to hold myself responsible for helping my DS feel happy every time he gets upset. _He_ chooses his reaction to situations, not me. I don't try to control his emotions. If he has a valid reason for being upset, I will definately talk with him, sympathize and comfort him. If I feel it's an _over_reaction, or if he's simply being selfish, I'll say so. For example, I'm not one to try to compromise and give out hugs when my DS is bemoaning the terrible injustice of not owning the entire Lego catalogue.







To do so would be enabling greed. My goal is to raise an unselfish and mature adult, not to have a constantly contented child.

But who decides for another person whether or not their feelings are valid?? I would be so upset if someone decided my reason for being upset wasn't valid, and told me I was overreacting or "just being selfish." I wouldn't enjoy experiencing such a dismissal of my concerns and feelings. I think most adults would feel the same way. Why would it be different for kids? Why is it okay to tell kids their reasons for feeling a certain way aren't valid, that they're feelings aren't valid or okay? I don't think empathizing about not being able to get all the Legos enables greed. I think it enables connection and compassion, and opens the door to talking about how realistic the idea of buying all the Legos is.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
You didn't *have* to hold your kids down to brush their teeth. You *chose* to do that based on a variety of things--all well intentioned, I'm *certain.* Lots of people CHOOSE not to do that. Maybe it's b/c they don't care about dental health, or they're inattentive parents, or they're willing to sing to make it more agreeable (NOT that you haven't tried that...just an example), or any number of other things that may or may not result in rotted teeth.

But it's a slippery slope, I think, when we get into that, "Well, it HAD to be done," when we're discussing a child getting the short end of a stick.

I know many of us were treated, as children, in ways that were "for our own good." But the relationship betw. us and our parents was damaged in the process.

For me, when I'm entering that "have to" or "for their own good" state of mind, I'm not focused on the moment and the way my child and I are connected in that moment. I'm looking past them and our relationship and focusing on a mindset or an outcome that may never materialize.

Well said.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
Re. "you don't need that."

I think there are many different ways to say that, you know.

I've heard parents in the toy aisle say that in a shaming, scolding way that seems to say, "How dare you even ASK for that."

I don't think kids need to hear THAT. Eeek.

I think there might be a much gentler delivery that wouldn't make me cringe, but I'm still not sure there isn't an even better way to handle it. I'm leery of telling people what they want and need. How would I know?

Maybe the kid has a plan in his head to build something, and that toy would be the necessary part to carry it off. Yet, I say, "You don't need that." I'm clearly wrong. And I'm shutting down, rather than building up, dialogue and a cooperative spirit between us.

If a friend came into my house and started telling me that I didn't need my computer, or my microwave, or my houseplants, or my crafting stuff....and behind that message there was a thought that I was greedy for looking over catalogs and wanting more craft supplies......well, that probably wouldn't make for a very comfortable, bonding afternoon for us. And I'd likely feel judged and hurt and shamed.







I imagine kids might react the same.

I don't think scarcity creates generosity. Quite the opposite. I think scarcity creates feelings of "not enough" and "need more" and "better hold onto to this tight!" Hence the generation of Depression era folks who hold onto everything generations later b/c one day "they might need it."

So does that mean I advocate buying everything your kids ask for? No. Not at all.

But I do think it's just as easy to say, "Hmmm...that DOES look cool!" with a smile, as it is to say, "You don't need that."

And it takes you out of the equation as the roadblock to the kid getting the thing, or as the arbitrator of what other people need or not.

Again, well said. My kids have asked for things, and we've talked about how fun those things look, and how it would be neat to buy it. Then we've talked about whether it's realistic, financially, for us to buy it. Or, what do you imagine doing with that? Or we've talked about whether or not this thing would really be used much, or pointed out how many of this type of thing we already have and is it really a good idea to buy more? What do you think, kids? Or maybe we'd have to make room, we have so much stuff, would you be willing to clean out your toys and give some away before we buy new stuff? Because I'm really uncomfortable bringing even more stuff home right now, with all the stuff we already have because.... And sometimes I've just said "That does look fun, doesn't it?" and moved on, talking about all the stuff I might like to buy too, how fun it would be to buy the whole store full of stuff-that usually turns into a fun conversation (and the child lets go of talking about that toy, having had their desire acknowledged and having that connection we're now enjoying).

And you know, it might seem so much more efficient (in that moment when you're in the store) to just say "you don't need it," but I've found that in the long term it matters _a lot_ to have these conversations with the children, with empathy, that take a little more time. After having these conversations, we have many times experienced our kids saying independently says "that's so cool! I wish I could buy it! But maybe I don't really need it, I don't know if I'll really use it, and I already have something like it." We just don't have struggles or tears or tantrums over not being able to buy things, it's just so rare for us, and I don't think it's because we have particularly unusual kids.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

For me it's about discussion. We talk about everything. My kids never ask for stuff in the checkout aisle. Because I have never ever bought anything from there.(and I said I was flexible) I have explained that it is there, set up in that exact spot for the express reason of getting you to spend money on something you don't want. If my kids get a treat in the store it's generally planned(we put it on the list before we go) and while it might be just as crappy as the stuff in the checkout at least it's not an impulse shop.

and my kids don't kick up the fuss. Sometimes they will still look at stuff with BIG eyes and seem sad but I say "I know, but remember we don't buy stuff" and after that we move on.

Both Sledg and Monkey's mom have expressed things really well









In our family we are working with a budget and try to seriously think about what we purchase. The kids know this. We also talk a lot about the earth and how what we buy impacts our environment.

My kids spent a lot of time with the Sears Wish Book before Christmas. We made a whole lot of wishes with that thing. We didn't order a single item. We made them a puppet theatre and bought them puppets etc.

I have to say, my kids aren't greedy. They don't generally whine for things and usually accept when they can't have certain things etc.

I value their imput and don't ridicule when they want something. I don't always buy it but I do listen to them. And sometimes they make a valid point and we do get it







.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
And I listen to them. My parents were very big into that need/want distinction. Honestly, one needs very very little, as I know from growing up in a family with one income and 6 closely-spaced children. You need a couple of sets of play clothes, 5-7 pairs of underwear, 5-7 pairs of socks, one or two pairs of shoes, 2 dresses for church, 1 school jumper and two shirts, a bed with a set of linens, a desk, a light, a trashcan, 3 small meals, 1 or 2 snacks, trips to the library, blocks, books and balls. Maybe a doll if you were a girl.

My mom grew up without everything she needed, so thought we were greedy to want things. It made it complicated for me to want things and feel I deserved them as an adult.

Wow, that is exactly how I grew up, right down to the mother who thought we were greedy for wanting things. She'd get mad and say "You're always wanting wanting wanting..." even now I feel guilty when I want stuff. My sister became very materialistic as a result, she needs to buy a lot to feel she deserves stuff, goes into debt etc. I am the opposite, I don't really spend that much because I feel greedy when I do.


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## crwilson (Mar 13, 2007)

I've really enjoyed reading this thread - I'm not posting because I have any strategies to contribute, since dd just turned 1 year old. But reading this has really helped me think about how I want to handle these kinds of situations in the future and what my philosophies are about the validity of children's feelings and the idea that they also need to become part of the community which means sometimes doing unpleasant things. I feel like my parents did a really good job about this kind of thing, but I can't remember exactly what they did or how they explained things. I like the idea of talking about the Legos...when I really, really, really wanted a horse, my parents were very good about it, even though they definitely didn't want a horse. They helped me calculate all the things that we would need, how much it would cost, and they also had me research all the things that I would have to do to take care of a horse. In other words, they took me seriously, even though I was probably about 9-10, when they could have just said no, too expensive, too much work. I'd like to be to do things like that. Of course, that kind of thinking is more difficult to apply in situations like the checkout line...


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mz_libbie22* 
I don't understand how you can equate what I said with wanting children to "sacrifice" because of some parental feeling of entitlement.







I don't see the connection.

When I talked about the attitude that "We do so much for our children, and sometimes it's their turn to sacrifice for us" -- I was referring to at least one or two posts here where I'd read things like, "I do lots of things for my child that are really boring to me -- so, by gum, he can endure a little boredom for me sometimes."

I don't specifically remember if you said anything like that, and I wasn't directing my post to any one person in particular: I was just addressing that whole attitude (which is actually a pretty prevalent one in our society), and sharing how I think these kinds of beliefs can affect parents' willingness to even *try* for a mutually agreeable solution.

Quote:

The underlined is the main difference in how I view things. I refuse to hold myself responsible for helping my DS feel happy every time he gets upset. _He_ chooses his reaction to situations, not me. I don't try to control his emotions.
The difference between me and my children is that they're way more dependent on me and dh for their circumstances, than I am on them or any adult for my own circumstances.

As an analogy, I *choose* to be in an intimate relationship with my dh, such that our happiness/unhappiness is very much intertwined. But if dh were continually disregarding my feelings -- for instance, telling me whether or not he thought I had a "valid reason" to be upset, I'd have a wide array of choices: Even if I chose to keep our home intact (which is what I'd do), I could begin setting more boundaries and building more of a support system whereby I could get my needs met through other relationships.

Our children simply don't have our adult ability to revamp their lives, or form more positive relationships if their current ones are dysfunctional (*I'm not labeling anyone on this thread as "dysfunctional" -- I'm just highlighting the differences between adults and children in unsatisfactory situations*).

It's not that I hold myself responsible if one of my children ever feels unhappy, and I certainly don't believe in "controlling" anyone's emotions: I just believe in calling a spade a spade, and if I believe there are adjustments I can make to create a more happy situation for my children, I should try it rather than pretending to myself that doing so would be an attempt to "control" my children's emotions, and would interfere with their autonomous right to be unhappy if they so chose.

Quote:

If he has a valid reason for being upset, I will definately talk with him, sympathize and comfort him. If I feel it's an _over_reaction, or if he's simply being selfish, I'll say so.
Maybe that's how you like to be treated by your husband, significant other, or friends. I like to be listened to, and don't appreciate anyone else deciding *for* *me* whether I have a valid reason to feel the way I do. And I believe in treating others (including my dear children) the way that I like to be treated.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 
The point that is trying to be made here is that they became functioning members of their society and the adults of the SA Indians had the confidence that it would happen so they didn't push them when they were little, never encouraged them to finish things etc yet they STILL matured into capable adults.

Yes, that was the point.

Quote:

And as children it wasn't "grate the manoic or starve" they were fed even if they only helped a bit. They just developed a sense of responsibility as they matured just by being with the adults around them who modelled that sense of responsibility.
Yes, exactly! There was no decision, made by adults, that at a certain age it was "time" for a person to begin taking responsibility and contributing. Each person decided to as s/he was ready. And got fed/cared for in the meantime. This is interesting to me because it's so different from our society's belief that children have to be made to follow through, or they'll never grow into responsible adults.

Liedloff only seemed to know of one case where an adult in this Indian society didn't want to fully participate -- and this was an adult who'd been adopted into Western society as a child, then come back to his people as a grown man. At first he wanted to do nothing but hunt and fish, which didn't adequately provide for his family. A friend and neighbor shared food from his garden to meet the needs of this man and his family -- then one day, the man got the urge to start his own garden.

His friend was glad to help him get started, and was amused that his friend had wanted to work all along -- but just didn't know it 'til that point!

In view of this story, I tend to think the children *didn't* view their alternatives as "grate the manioc or starve." It was just more appealing to them to be a part of the action, than not.

Quote:

Thanks for sharing that Mammal_mama
You're welcome! And thanks to you for the excellent points you've made!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I am quite possibly in my own camp. I don't thing the thread was about the other mother at all. I think the OP was sharing the amazing feeling one gets when one realizes that that one is now free of one's previously held beliefs that one's children's behavior must be controlled and conformed to a place where children's behavior is viewed as communication that it is possible to understand and respond to.

I agree. I'm puzzled that anyone thinks it's a debate about whether parents should take their children shopping, or whether the mom in question should have just instantaneously left.

Quote:

Giving young children some space to go through phases works better than I would have imagined. And no particularly dire consequences have ensured so far.
I'm finding the same thing. Our girls usually enjoy shopping, too -- but maybe that's because they normally have the option of staying home with the other parent (usually me): (Edited to Add the word "normally") they usually want to go. If the parent going shopping (usually dh: he loves shopping) knows this trip is going to be longer than usual (and/or is likely to be boring), he explains this ahead of time ... if it turns into a bigger project than initially foreseen, he's likely to take kids home before moving on to the next store.

Edited to Add: And before someone comes and says, "How nice for you that your life is so perfect" -- no, it's not perfect ... and I think parents in any situation can find some way to work out these issues in a child-responsive way (and child-responsive doesn't necessarily mean the exact. same. way that dh and I work it out) ... I realize this is going to be harder in some situations than others ...

But again, I think one needs a mindset that it's worthwhile even *trying* to do this, before one is going to be willing to try. And if one never tries, the impossible just stays impossible.


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## 93085 (Oct 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crwilson* 
I've really enjoyed reading this thread - I'm not posting because I have any strategies to contribute, since dd just turned 1 year old. But reading this has really helped me think about how I want to handle these kinds of situations in the future and what my philosophies are about the validity of children's feelings and the idea that they also need to become part of the community which means sometimes doing unpleasant things. I feel like my parents did a really good job about this kind of thing, but I can't remember exactly what they did or how they explained things. I like the idea of talking about the Legos...when I really, really, really wanted a horse, my parents were very good about it, even though they definitely didn't want a horse. They helped me calculate all the things that we would need, how much it would cost, and they also had me research all the things that I would have to do to take care of a horse. In other words, they took me seriously, even though I was probably about 9-10, when they could have just said no, too expensive, too much work. I'd like to be to do things like that. Of course, that kind of thinking is more difficult to apply in situations like the checkout line...


This is all very well and good, but lets be honest--we're really talking about giving kids the _illusion_ of choice. And I agree that it's a perfectly valid parenting too, but it's really not about letting them choose, it's about letting them _think_ they're choosing.

In my household, getting a pony is not a valid choice. It's an untenable position. And as parents, DH and I can either be honest about that at the outset, or we can use our rhetorical skills to persuade our daughter to come to that conclusion before we have to speak it aloud. She cannot choose to get a pony. See what I'm saying? Honestly, I'd probably choose the rhetorical route myself, but I can't say for sure that it's the more honest and attachment-promoting method.

Quote:

Quote:
If he has a valid reason for being upset, I will definately talk with him, sympathize and comfort him. If I feel it's an overreaction, or if he's simply being selfish, I'll say so.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama*
Maybe that's how you like to be treated by your husband, significant other, or friends. I like to be listened to, and don't appreciate anyone else deciding for me whether I have a valid reason to feel the way I do. And I believe in treating others (including my dear children) the way that I like to be treated.

Well, I don't think anyone likes to be told that they are being inconsiderate, but sometimes it needs to be said, don't you think so? I know that I am sometimes inconsiderate, and while I may bristle when DH calls me on it, I am ultimately glad that he does. I think that's the sign of a healthy relationship and interpersonal dynamic that we listen to each other even when it's not all sunshine and roses. And it's the same with the kids. Sometimes DD1 tells us that we're being unfair, and she's right--and it goes the other way, too. That's just life, life when you live in the world with other people. That's the way I see it, anyway.


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jescafa* 
This is all very well and good, but lets be honest--we're really talking about giving kids the _illusion_ of choice. And I agree that it's a perfectly valid parenting too, but it's really not about letting them choose, it's about letting them _think_ they're choosing.

In my household, getting a pony is not a valid choice. It's an untenable position. And as parents, DH and I can either be honest about that at the outset, or we can use our rhetorical skills to persuade our daughter to come to that conclusion before we have to speak it aloud. She cannot choose to get a pony. See what I'm saying? Honestly, I'd probably choose the rhetorical route myself, but I can't say for sure that it's the more honest and attachment-promoting method.

I'm not sure I agree. It's possible that you might be able to come to an agreement that makes everyone happy, like pony riding lessons, or boarding a pony, or volunteering at a pony farm, or whatever... so in a sense, there may be a valid choice that will please everyone.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jescafa* 
This is all very well and good, but lets be honest--we're really talking about giving kids the _illusion_ of choice. And I agree that it's a perfectly valid parenting too, but it's really not about letting them choose, it's about letting them _think_ they're choosing.

In my household, getting a pony is not a valid choice. It's an untenable position. And as parents, DH and I can either be honest about that at the outset, or we can use our rhetorical skills to persuade our daughter to come to that conclusion before we have to speak it aloud. She cannot choose to get a pony. See what I'm saying? Honestly, I'd probably choose the rhetorical route myself, but I can't say for sure that it's the more honest and attachment-promoting method.

I agree that it's giving the illusion of choice if the parents are truly determined to see to it that their child *never* gets a horse.

I personally can't imagine how we could do that either at this time. However, if we had a child who kept talking about wanting one, we'd be open enough to say seriously, "Lets learn more about horses (like the pp's parents did), spend some time with horses, maybe seek out opportunities to go to a stable and volunteer to help care for the horses."

If our child kept growing more interested (rather than shrinking away from shoveling the poop and so on), we'd start looking into ways that she could increase her involvement with horses, and maybe even figure out a way to afford the horse, either by stabling it with someone and paying them for the care, or buying enough land to keep the horse ourselves.

No, I certainly wouldn't sell our house, rush out to the country, and buy a horse the first time my child said, "I want a horse" -- but if, over time, it became evident that my child's dream was firmly rooted in the realities of what caring for a horse is really like, we'd certainly keep rooting around for ways to help her bring her dream to fruition.

Here's the rub: a 10yo (in the grand scheme of things) isn't *that* far from adulthood. However, to the 10yo, "when you're grown up" still seems like a lifetime away. So there's nothing more like a dash of cold water than hearing Mom or Dad say, "You can do whatever you want when you grow up and have your own home."

At least, when my folks said stuff like that to me at that age, I just kind of gave up on those dreams ("Who knows if I'll even _like_ the same things when I'm 'old?'").

It would certainly be dishonest to say, "Lets get more involved and find out what horses are really like," if the parents truly have no intention of ever helping their child to go further with her dream -- however, if a parent honestly says, "I'm just not sure if we can manage that in our current situation -- but let's see what we can do right now to get you closer to your dream" --

And if the parent, upon seeing that her child's interest is continuing, keeps looking for more and more ways to stoke the fire -- what's so horrible about a child spending the years between 10 and 18 learning all about horses (and volunteering with horses), then seeking out some related degree (for working with horses), or a job as a stable-hand, putting down some money on some land and living there in a mobile home 'til she gets her house and stables built, and eventually buying her first hors(es) at age 22 or so?

How is the parent being dishonest, by helping the child to explore her dream and determine if it's really worth the effort required?

Quote:

Well, I don't think anyone likes to be told that they are being inconsiderate, but sometimes it needs to be said, don't you think so?
My thing is, I feel it would be extremely inconsiderate for me to presume to tell someone else whether s/he has a valid reason to be upset.

Quote:

I think that's the sign of a healthy relationship and interpersonal dynamic that we listen to each other even when it's not all sunshine and roses.
Yes, I agree. However, I also see the ability to stop my "tantrum," and listen and be rational while someone else tells me what a jerk I'm being, as a real mark of maturity. It's way more maturity than many adults are able to muster up when their emotions are raging.

So, I would see the ability to listen "when it's not all sunshine and roses" (I'm assuming this means when the storms are raging and thorns are pricking?







) as something that maybe I should try to model for my dear children -- but not an ability that I'd expect them to have right-off-the-bat (especially since I don't consistently have this ability at age 43!).


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Well the silly "server is busy" ate my post...but the crux of it is that my dp grew up on horses, my bil showed horses at a very advanced level and my neice just sold her pony to buy a horse and spends 6 days a week at the barn.

dd1 is 7 and rides. She may decide that she wants a pony at some point and we will cross that bridge when we get there.

I've had more than one mom of a teen-ager say, "I never thought I'd be...." as they work with their children to get what the children want. A car, a job, going to school rather than homeschooling, starting college early. I'm comfortable that even though right now a pony seems kinda crazy, that as my children mature, I might be working out a way for them to get what they want...even if you ride it and brush it and shovel it's droppings.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I've had more than one mom of a teen-ager say, "I never thought I'd be...." as they work with their children to get what the children want. A car, a job, going to school rather than homeschooling, starting college early. I'm comfortable that even though right now a pony seems kinda crazy, that as my children mature, I might be working out a way for them to get what they want...even if you ride it and brush it and shovel it's droppings.

That's how I feel about it, too.


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## theirmomjayne (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ann_of_loxley* 
Thats a very good question...
(though I will add as a side note...book shopping is not something that must be done - its something you do for fun...


Not necessarily. Maybe she needed a book right away, for some reason.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

It's funny this has turned to horses. There is a horse farm down the road. We drive by it frequently and today we drove by it again. My 4.5 year once again talked about getting her own horse.

We have in the past gone over all the steps to becoming a horse owner...what needs to happen, how much they cost etc. etc. She still wants a horse. I said to her, if you save all your money, get a job if you still want a horse when you are older and learn how to take care of the horse yourself and can pay to board it at the farm then of course you can have a horse. She understands that sometimes you have to work hard for your dreams. Sometimes you have to wait. Of course she's only 4.5 and the dream may change once she has a taste of the reality of the whole thing.

She is willing to start with riding lessons. She's determined to save her money(she has nearly $500 saved..yeah, she's 4.5 and has never spent her birthday money) and will start when she's 6.

So no, she cannot get a pony _now_ and there is no way around this but I make sure she knows why that is and what needs to be done to get to the point where she can.

Quite a coincidence since we just had this conversation a few hours ago.

still agreeing with mammal_mamma and Chfriend


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## theirmomjayne (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ruhbehka* 
Today, DH and I were at a bookstore, killing time before DS' pediatrician appointment. We happened to observe a mother with an older toddler (probably 2.5 - 3 years old) who was walking through the store crying, tantrum-throwing, etc.

It was kind of an interesting experience, because we both realized how far we had come down the gentle discipline spectrum. In the past, we would have watched this scenario play out and thought that the mom was doing "ineffective" things to curb the little one's "misbehavior." (She gave her a swat on the bottom at one point, not particularly hard, tried reasoning with her, tried to get her to pick out a book, ignored her, etc.)

This time, we both watched this and thought, "This little one clearly doesn't want to be book shopping right now, and she is trying harder and harder to convey that message to her mom, who isn't seeming to get the message."

It was just kind of neat to realize how differently we interpreted this family's interaction than we would have years ago. And it really did bring home a point I'd recently read, that children act according to how they feel.

Just wanted to share, and say thanks to everyone who has encouraged mamas here to consider situations from a child's POV.









How old is your child?


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *theirmomjayne* 
Not necessarily. Maybe she needed a book right away, for some reason.

This is so interesting. I am the most avid reader I know and I can't imagine such a book emergency.

What are you envisioning?


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Well the silly "server is busy" ate my post...but the crux of it is that my dp grew up on horses, my bil showed horses at a very advanced level and my neice just sold her pony to buy a horse and spends 6 days a week at the barn.

dd1 is 7 and rides. She may decide that she wants a pony at some point and we will cross that bridge when we get there.

I've had more than one mom of a teen-ager say, "I never thought I'd be...." as they work with their children to get what the children want. A car, a job, going to school rather than homeschooling, starting college early. I'm comfortable that even though right now a pony seems kinda crazy, that as my children mature, I might be working out a way for them to get what they want...even if you ride it and brush it and shovel it's droppings.

My parents never supported me in anything I ever dreamed of. They pushed THEIR dreams, that's it. Somehow I survived. I think thta;s what ost paretns do.

I wanted ahorse mroe than ANYTHING for most of my childhood and ttenage years.

I plan to do everything possible for my daughter to do whatever she dreams of btw, but she also needs to learn she cannot always have what she wants. (not sure how successful I'll be on that. I want to give her everything I never had)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
This is so interesting. I am the most avid reader I know and I can't imagine such a book emergency.

What are you envisioning?


She could need it for school, for a book club, maybe she borrowed a book from a friend, the dog chewed it and she needs to replace it.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelcat* 
My parents never supported me in anything I ever dreamed of. They pushed THEIR dreams, that's it. Somehow I survived.

I am so sorry









I think there is a a huge difference between a sense of entitilement, of deserving something just because and expecting to have it handed to you and learning that if you plan and work towards something you want badly then often with support from those who love you it can happen.

Both categories of people have a sense they deserve to have their dreams, they just been taught differently in how to achieve the dream.

I am aiming for the second for my children.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelcat* 
she also needs to learn she cannot always have what she wants.

I can't imagine a scenario where a child never learns that lesson.

It's just part of life.

If we choose to take the path to the left on a nature hike, then we can't also be taking the path to the right. Perhaps we could come back and do it later, but we can't do both at the same time--even if we REALLY want to. There are millions of opportunities that life, itself, (without any help from me) shows my kids that they can not always have what they want.

I can't imagine adding disappointment and curt comments to their little lives to drive that point home.

I just don't think it's necessary. In fact, I think the potential for harming the relationship is, over time, very real and sad.

Fulfilling a wish "in fantasy" is a wonderful GD method that many kids respond to. Primarily, I think, because it gets back to what this thread started on--the value of hearing the kid. Empathizing with people makes for more kindness. Dismissing people and their wants makes for more bitterness and anger. And empathizing about something does not necessarily include indulging it.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

angelcat said:


> My parents never supported me in anything I ever dreamed of. They pushed THEIR dreams, that's it. Somehow I survived. I think thta;s what ost paretns do.
> 
> I wanted ahorse mroe than ANYTHING for most of my childhood and ttenage years.
> 
> ...


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 

Fulfilling a wish "in fantasy" is a wonderful GD method that many kids respond to. Primarily, I think, because it gets back to what this thread started on--the value of hearing the kid. Empathizing with people makes for more kindness. Dismissing people and their wants makes for more bitterness and anger. And empathizing about something does not necessarily include indulging it.

yes and it stops whining quite effectively a lot of times as well...so it's gentle and it works. Or I could say "no, you can't have that, you can't have everything you want, stop whining " etc. etc.

I like the "oh yeah, pizza would be awesome..I wish we could find a way to have pizza today too but I don't have any money for it but if I did I'd buy one that was 20 feet around" and eyes get big "I'd get one 40 feet big" and I say "I'd get 7 million pepperoni's on it" and she's say "and a ton of cheese" and so it would go...and then we'd go ahead and eat whatever I made etc.

I love this and so does she. There is no whining or nagging that happens and it's just fun..we both actually enjoy coming up with bigger and better things.

In fact this is the best way I have found to stop the "gimmes" without whining, nagging or tantrums. It's not 100% I guess though off-hand I can't think of a single time it hasn't worked for us.


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## AsYouWish (Apr 20, 2005)

Thank you for this thread. It has been very powerful for me on two levels.

Firstly, the OP's celebration of her own personal growth and change in perspective was lovely. I've had moments like that in my own life, where I think to myself, "I used to think like *that* and now I think like *this*" and then feeling amazed because the idea that I could ever be the sort of person who thinks like *this* often felt damn near unattainable when I was thinking like *that*. Does that make sense? I try to hold onto those moments in my mental "in case of psychological emergency" file to remind myself when I am feeling stuck that there have been times in the past when I have been able to see my own change and growth and that it can happen again.

Secondly, I have been in a what-should-I-be-when-I-grow-up-rut (even though I'm 30yo) for a long, looooong time now. And I have started reflecting back on dreams that I had as a child, dreams that even now that I am finally a grown up I still tell myself are impossible to attain: "You can't have that." "You can't afford that." "That is unrealistic." "You don't know anything about that." "Maybe someday when you are older." Well, _someday_ is here!!! I wishwishwish when I was growing up that I had had the sort of parents like some of the wise mamas here who want to help their children find a way to get what they want, even if it is in incremental steps and even if that dream doesn't come to complete fruition until their children really are grown ups. I wishwishwish someone had laid that foundation for me and helped me break down my goals into conquerable steps that I could master right then, even as a kid, instead of waiting for it all "when I grew up". I am grown up now, and I haven't achieved any of those things that I dreamed of and I still hear that message in my head, that I have to wait until I'm older.

Believe me, _the_ life lesson has been learned: Not everyone gets what they want and you just have to learn to deal with it. Am I really better off this way? Does it really make me a better human being? A more considerate and productive member of society? I don't think so. In fact, I think I'm not offering to the world what I possibly could because my dreams were squelched as a child with the life lesson that not everyone gets what they want (so don't bother trying). I am not offering to my community my passion or creativity or ingenuity or intelligence because "we can't always have what we want", including all of the dreams that would have channeled those qualities. I am 30yo and starting from ground zero on making my life what I want it to be. I am grieving the time that I feel I've lost, but excited to at least finally try. And I'm glad that I am experiencing this shift in perspective now, so that I *hopefully* don't pass on -- even through normal, every day activities, like trips to the grocery store -- the "you can't/aren't/shouldn't/won't" mindset to my own kids. Every person deserves, and should strive for, more than that.


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *theirmomjayne* 
How old is your child?

Not sure why this question seems like a trap, but he's 1.5.

(And was also throwing fits in the bookstore, fwiw. We were killing time before his doctor's appointment and he was feeling terrible, so we spent most of the time passing him back and forth, snuggling, swaying, and trying to interest him in looking at books. Fortunately we didn't have any shopping to attempt to accomplish! I suppose someone could easily have wondered why we were dragging our sick kid to the bookstore, but they hadn't been cooped up indoors with him for five days, where he cried pretty much nonstop regardless. At least the bookstore had interesting things to look at.)


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

As You Wish,









That eloquent piece of writing, from your heart, was a wonderful gift. Thank you for sharing it.

I'm learning that often the best healing from our childhood wounds is to break the cycle AND let others know the damage that can be done.

Good luck on your journey!!







It's NEVER too late to start!


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jescafa* 

In my household, getting a pony is not a valid choice. It's an untenable position. And as parents, DH and I can either be honest about that at the outset, or we can use our rhetorical skills to persuade our daughter to come to that conclusion before we have to speak it aloud. She cannot choose to get a pony. See what I'm saying? Honestly, I'd probably choose the rhetorical route myself, but I can't say for sure that it's the more honest and attachment-promoting method.

Well, I don't think anyone likes to be told that they are being inconsiderate, but sometimes it needs to be said, don't you think so? I know that I am sometimes inconsiderate, and while I may bristle when DH calls me on it, I am ultimately glad that he does. I think that's the sign of a healthy relationship and interpersonal dynamic that we listen to each other even when it's not all sunshine and roses. And it's the same with the kids. Sometimes DD1 tells us that we're being unfair, and she's right--and it goes the other way, too. That's just life, life when you live in the world with other people. That's the way I see it, anyway.


Exactly.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I'm not saying that it's always easy -- and I fully realize that some parents are more stretched than others.

I've just found, in my own life, that deciding a particular state is *desirable*, makes me more inclined to try to figure out ways to make it *possible*. If I don't think it's even *desirable*, then I'm way more inclined to dismiss it as *not possible*.

Why would I want to make something possible, if it's not even something I want in the first place?


yep, this makes a ton of sense. it's kind of like how all the women who think natural childbirth is impossible (and they do exist--they think the pain of childbirth can actually kill you, is dangerous, etc.) are the same ones who say, "sign me up for an epidural in the parking lot!"

truly, they don't _want_ a natural birth, so they dismiss it as basically impossible to achieve.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *readytobedone* 
truly, they don't _want_ a natural birth, so they dismiss it as basically impossible to achieve.

Yes ...

Also, when I used to be more coercive in my parenting, I'd often get myself through some of the really ugly moments (you know, where your child's all upset and you're feeling so yucky about what you're doing ... by "you" I mean general you (and me), no one specific) ...

Anyhow, I'd get myself through those ugly-feeling moments by rationalizing that "sometimes it just has to be this way." Then when I started encountering parents who found it possible to, for instance, promote dental health without forcing toothbrushing, it really put me on the defensive at first.

I mean, I should have been thrilled to learn that I had other options ... but I felt defensive at the thought that I'd been doing this really crummy thing that wasn't necessary at all. Kind of like the Nazis who didn't want to consider that Hitler's theories might be wrong after they'd already slaughtered so many innocent people.

Now when I get into situations where I find myself doing things I don't like, my response is to start planning ways to handle the situation differently next time.


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## IdahoMom (Nov 8, 2005)

I can't believe it took six pages for Hitler and the Nazis to come up!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdahoMom* 
I can't believe it took six pages for Hitler and the Nazis to come up!









I'm not sure if you're giving me the thumbs-up for bringing it up, or everyone the thumbs-up for making it through six pages before someone brought it up.







I'll have to go back and see what you've previously posted to get an idea of where you might be coming from!

Of course, I realize everyone here is too reasonable to think I'm calling anyone a Nazi. That was simply the analogy that came to mind, when I thought about the defensiveness I felt when I found out some things I'd accepted as "unpleasant necessities," that were "for the greater good," really weren't necessary at all. Major paradigm-shift for me.

And actually, the only reason anyone might feel offended at being likened to a Nazi, is that we tend to dehumanize Hitler and his followers, in a manner similar to the way that Hitler dehumanized whole groups of people.

I think it's important to realize that many atrocious acts are committed by human beings following wrong theories, who have somehow persuaded themselves that the crimes they commit are "necessary evils."


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

I think she's referring to Godwin's Law.
*Godwin's law* (also known as *Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies*) is an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states:

_"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."_


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ruhbehka* 
I think she's referring to Godwin's Law.
*Godwin's law* (also known as *Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies*) is an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states:

_"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."_









And here I thought I was being so creative!


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 

Fulfilling a wish "in fantasy" is a wonderful GD method that many kids respond to. Primarily, I think, because it gets back to what this thread started on--the value of hearing the kid. Empathizing with people makes for more kindness. Dismissing people and their wants makes for more bitterness and anger. And empathizing about something does not necessarily include indulging it.


I disagree. In some situations it _would_ be indulging the child to empathize with them, even if you don't give them what it is they are wanting. This comes up very rarely for us, but if the child's 'want' is really excessive, showing empathy or turning it into a fantasy sends the child the message that it's okay to be materialistic, it's indulging that feeling of selfishness that prompted the child to say "I want___" in the first place. When your child is whining for a toy for example (which apparently many here are so lucky this has never happened to them...but anyway) if your repsonse is "yeah, wouldn't that be nice to have that" it seems like a reinforcement of materialistic values. I don't think that's the best response for kids who already have so much more than they need anyway. I think the distinction between *wants* and *needs* must be taught and reinforced by the parents. That's my opinion.







I show my DS loads of empathy and kindness, he isn't going to be filled with resentment because I occasionally tell him matter-of-factly that he doesn't *need* _yet another_ hotwheels car or box of legos. On the contrary, I've found it works the best for my DS (who was born to argue) because it's a very common sense, blunt, and truthful answer.


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Yes ...

Anyhow, I'd get myself through those ugly-feeling moments by rationalizing that "sometimes it just has to be this way." *Then when I started encountering parents who found it possible to, for instance, promote dental health without forcing toothbrushing,* it really put me on the defensive at first.

I mean, I should have been thrilled to learn that I had other options ... but I felt defensive at the thought that I'd been doing this really crummy thing that *wasn't necessary at all.* Kind of like the Nazis who didn't want to consider that Hitler's theories might be wrong after they'd already slaughtered so many innocent people.


Hey, thanks for comparing parents who enforce dental health "kinda like the nazis". I really appreciate that. I am glad it is possible for you to get your children's teeth brushed in a non nazi-like manner, but I have tried everything and I do mean everything to get them to brush. And I even let them skip brushing some nights when it was too much of a battle. Guess what? My oldest had major dental surgery under general anesthesia before he was even 4 years old. My 3 year old has a little bridge of tiny artificial teeth on his top 4 front teeth, because they came in with enamel defects, and he had so many visits to the dentist to get fillings by the time he was 2 that they finally put a little partial in there because the teeth were wearing away so badly and I couldn't keep putting him through that.

So, no, the only other option for my kids would be serious infections/gum disease/more cavities, etc, etc, etc. It's just simply not as black and white as you seem to think it is for everyone.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I think the Nazi comment, while I believe ill-advised because it minimizes the suffering of those who were tortured and killed in the Holocaust, has been clarified. I don't think my children are not particularly materialistic because I'm "lucky." I believe that I shared real views of the what and why my kids are generally contented, caring and non-selfish people.

In spite of health challenges that included a 2 year hearing loss, diagnosed and painful food allergies and sensory difficulties.

And I think that anyone interested in what I have to say has probably read it. I hope it's been helpful to you.

I'm getting the feeling that anyone who was interesting in discussing the relief and joy that come from this particular paradigm shift has gotten all they can out this thread, so I'm going to wander away.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *L&IsMama* 
It's just simply not as black and white as you seem to think it is for everyone.

Wow! And here I thought I was encouraging more openness to the possibility that everything's *not* so black-and-white: i.e. force toothbrushing or let your kids' teeth fall out ... and all I've been saying is getting perceived (at least by one person) as "the whole world is divided into black-and-white, either/or scenarios."

I've learned my lesson about using the Nazis to make analogies: not only is it not creative or unique (it's actually so common there's a "law" about it!), but it leads to my ideas getting perceived way differently than they were intended.

I'm sorry about the dental difficulties! We're actually needing to seek a dental evaluation for one of our dd's, who's having some tooth issues *in spite of* our managing to find agreeable ways to keep her teeth cleaned.

I've been exploring various theories about all the factors that affect dental health, and I no longer believe it's 100% related to toothbrushing.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I think the Nazi comment, while I believe ill-advised because it minimizes the suffering of those who were tortured and killed in the Holocaust

This is an excellent point, and one I hadn't thought of. What I've learned here is leading me to think very carefully in future about what analogies I decide to use.

And I hope my ill-planned comment hasn't now made it impossible for anyone to get any more out of this thread.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mz_libbie22* 
I disagree. In some situations it _would_ be indulging the child to empathize with them, even if you don't give them what it is they are wanting. This comes up very rarely for us, but if the child's 'want' is really excessive, showing empathy or turning it into a fantasy sends the child the message that it's okay to be materialistic, it's indulging that feeling of selfishness that prompted the child to say "I want___" in the first place. When your child is whining for a toy for example (which apparently many here are so lucky this has never happened to them...but anyway) if your repsonse is "yeah, wouldn't that be nice to have that" it seems like a reinforcement of materialistic values.

I think it's totally developmentally appropriate for children to be egocentric and to want stuff sometimes. Even if they have 50 of the same thing at home. It's not bad, it's not materialistic, it's just the way kids think. I figure, I can empathize with my child and discuss the issue with them, or I can send the message that there is something wrong with them because they experienced a desire that is totally developmentally appropriate (which is the message they'll get about that desire if I tell them they're being selfish, and/or my tone and body language convey distaste/disapproval of their selfish desires). And just part of being human--hey, sometimes I want stuff I don't need, too, and I'm all grown up (and anyone who knows me would laugh at someone calling me materialistic).

I have found that empathizing with them regarding their disappointment over not being able to buy something, absolutely does not reinforce materialistic values. It reinforces compassion for other human beings and their feelings. It moves the focus from the material to the human, and teaches a lot about considering others. My kids are not materialistic. And yes, occasionally they do whine in the store about getting stuff. They do more often simply ask politely, knowing that they'll receive a compassionate, thoughtful response that validates and considers their feelings and desires.


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
And I hope my ill-planned comment hasn't now made it impossible for anyone to get any more out of this thread.









Not at all. I think this thread has been useful, despite the derailing.


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

I think it's also common and possible for parents to appreciate the item that their child wants without encouraging "affluenza."

There is middle ground between, "I wish I could buy you a hundred Hot Wheels, and everything else you want, Snuggly Huggly Bear," and "You don't need another Hot Wheel, you materialistic little grub."









Plenty of children would feel validated with a simple "Ooh, that one is pretty. It reminds me of the blue one you have at home."


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree!!!!!!!!


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mz_libbie22* 
I disagree. In some situations it _would_ be indulging the child to empathize with them, even if you don't give them what it is they are wanting. This comes up very rarely for us, but if the child's 'want' is really excessive, showing empathy or turning it into a fantasy sends the child the message that it's okay to be materialistic, it's indulging that feeling of selfishness that prompted the child to say "I want___" in the first place. When your child is whining for a toy for example (which apparently many here are so lucky this has never happened to them...but anyway) if your repsonse is "yeah, wouldn't that be nice to have that" it seems like a reinforcement of materialistic values. I don't think that's the best response for kids who already have so much more than they need anyway. I think the distinction between *wants* and *needs* must be taught and reinforced by the parents. That's my opinion.







I show my DS loads of empathy and kindness, he isn't going to be filled with resentment because I occasionally tell him matter-of-factly that he doesn't *need* _yet another_ hotwheels car or box of legos. On the contrary, I've found it works the best for my DS (who was born to argue) because it's a very common sense, blunt, and truthful answer.


Possibly "in some situations" but alternatively simply by being satisfied by the fantasy means that you didn't really "need" the material object you were wanting. So that kind of proves itself to be a want rather than a need.

It is OK to want things. It's not so ok to expect them and feel entitled to them.

So anytime you "wished" for something that wasn't a need, didn't get it right away and went on without it means you learned that lesson, that wants and needs are different. I just like doing that gently with my kids.

I think there is a vast difference in "wanting something" and being materialistic. Simply wanting legos is not materialistic, wanting them enough to find solutions and ways to enable you to get legos is not materialistic.

Being materialistic simply means that you don't understand(or that you don't care) that things are just things and that they really don't define you. Yeah, they are fun to have but they are not important and that what is important is the friendships and people you cultivate, not the car you drive.

I don't think wishing in fantasy cultivates materialistic attitudes at all. I think it's just a fun way to get through the disappointment of not being able to get what you want when you want.

I think giving kids whatever they want without a thought possibly cultivates materialism in them. Teaching them to earn what they want by working towards a goal or teaching them they can actually be fine without that wish is teaching them the difference between wants and needs.

We all have wants. I don't know anyone who doesn't want some thing. Everybody who participates on MDC has a computer and usually it started with wanting one.

That doesn't make a person materialistic.

Mammal_Mama...no damage done...I think this has been a very productive thread. Thanks for sharing all you have with us.

PS..I was wondering who said their children haven't ever whined for a toy...


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ruhbehka* 

There is middle ground between, "I wish I could buy you a hundred Hot Wheels, and everything else you want, Snuggly Huggly Bear," and "You don't need another Hot Wheel, you materialistic little grub."


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ruhbehka* 







Not at all. I think this thread has been useful, despite the derailing.









That's good to know! I still feel there's lots of good to be gained from continuing this discussion, and I'm glad there are some others who feel this way.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
I have found that empathizing with them regarding their disappointment over not being able to buy something, absolutely does not reinforce materialistic values. It reinforces compassion for other human beings and their feelings. It moves the focus from the material to the human, and teaches a lot about considering others.

I agree! And you've put it so much better than I could have ... I wanted to respond to that other post but wasn't sure just how to make my point. You've done it for me!


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## nathansmum (Nov 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
I hear what you're saying, OP. It is neat--the sudden realization one can sometimes have about how differently one thinks now as opposed to "back then." When you realize how much you're perspective has changed. And how good that realization can sometimes feel, when you recognize all the good your change in thinking/perspective has brought to your life.

Yep, I hear what you're saying too OP. I felt it like I was on a totally different plane of thought when I realised how far I'd come in my own thinking. I find now though, I don't think about it so much - I used to analyse "myself then" and "myself now" quite a lot - more about my own journey than actually judging others on what they were doing though. It was about *me* not them. Now I generally just exist in my own bubble with my own kids and do what I do without observing scenarios around me.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nathansmum* 
Yep, I hear what you're saying too OP. I felt it like I was on a totally different plane of thought when I realised how far I'd come in my own thinking. I find now though, I don't think about it so much - I used to analyse "myself then" and "myself now" quite a lot - more about my own journey than actually judging others on what they were doing though. It was about *me* not them. Now I generally just exist in my own bubble with my own kids and do what I do without observing scenarios around me.

ditto this. I do mull it about on here which often helps me further develop as a parent, grow, change, etc. So much to be learned from moms like Sledg and Mammal_mama and Monkey's mom..and even the moms that I don't necessarily agree with..sometimes just the conversation helps be put things in place and decide for myself if "yeah, that makes sense" or "nope, don't think that's right" etc.

and I do have moments of "I used to think that way" but it's a realisation not a judgement if that makes any sense.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 

PS..I was wondering who said their children haven't ever whined for a toy...

I felt the pp's comment (that you're commenting on) really highlights the distinction between behaviorism and gentle discipline. With behaviorism, there's a belief that children are born without any intrinsic motivation to live cooperatively with others or to care about others' feelings.

So any time there's an undesirable behavior, there's a corresponding attempt to make sure nothing is done to "reinforce" the behavior. Hence the idea that empathizing with a child who's whining, will result in continued and worse whining.

This is in direct contrast to gentle discipline, which promotes a view of children as little people who desire to live in happy, loving, cooperative relationships with others, but who need our help to learn empathy and to learn about the effects of their behavior on others.

There may seem to be some overlap on the surface. For instance, LLL says that a baby who learns that he has to scream to get the breast, quickly learns to skip the preliminary phases of signaling hunger, such as rooting around, and just moves straight to screaming to get the fastest response.

So LLL recommends snuggling Baby close, and being attentive to those initial hunger cues, so you can latch Baby on and show him that screaming isn't necessary to get his needs met.

Therefore, gentle discipline advocates, such as LLL, *do* believe there's a relationship between what parents do and how children behave -- but it's still really the opposite of behaviorism, whose advocates often advise mothers to let babies fuss a bit before feeding, so they won't think their screaming will get "rewarded."

There are two very different attitudes toward infant screaming being expressed here: whereas I think *all* parents agree that screaming is unpleasant to listen to, behaviorists tend to perceive it as something that needs to be "negatively reinforced" out of the child (by withholding the sought-after "reward" ... which is really just punishment plain and simple).

Parents who practice gentle discipline view screaming as communication: it's the child's method for getting his needs met, if his more quiet hunger cues have consistently been ignored. Therefore, to avoid things reaching the screaming phase -- or to show an infant who was previously ignored, that things have changed and the parent is no longer going to make the child scream for his supper -- the gentle discipline parent is going to start holding Baby close and responding quickly at the first signal.

In the same way, I don't think any parent finds whining pleasant -- but a gentle discipline parent is more inclined to respond to the need beneath the whining -- such as the need for empathy and attention. There's less focus on making sure the whining is "nipped in the bud," and more focus on creating a situation where the child no longer feels he has to whine to get his needs met.

Edited to Add: Therefore, to try to finish my thought: the behaviorist perspective would be that any parent who believes in responding to every, "Mommy, I want ..." with empathy, must simply have a child who never whines. Because if the parent had a child who whines, she'd understand that empathy "doesn't work" in every situation and can sometimes "reinforce" the whining.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Therefore, to try to finish my thought: the behaviorist perspective would be that any parent who believes in responding to every, "Mommy, I want ..." with empathy, must simply have a child who never whines. Because if the parent had a child who whines, she'd understand that empathy "doesn't work" in every situation and can sometimes "reinforce" the whining.











I have 4 children...I would have been so darned lucky to have even had one that didn't whine.

I do feel an immediate and primal need to stop it immediately..it is the most aggravating thing in the world so I understand the desire to stop it as soon as possible. But I think kind of long-term generally so I try to work with the children, teach them how to ask me without whining, model how to say it.

I also know from experience that it will eventually go away with patience, understanding and guidance. I work really hard to find out the underlying reason for it...

you will not believe it but my 4 year old is out there in the dining room and just gave a big whine about something that has gone wrong..









ok..that's taken care of. She didn't like the macaroni and cheese so I am making her a burger









anyway...thanks Mammal_mom..makes a lot of sense.

Thanks for taking the time. Off to eat dinner with the kids.

Cheers


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I felt the pp's comment (that you're commenting on) really highlights the distinction between behaviorism and gentle discipline. *With behaviorism, there's a belief that children are born without any intrinsic motivation to live cooperatively with others* or to care about others' feelings.

So any time there's an undesirable behavior, there's a corresponding attempt to make sure nothing is done to "reinforce" the behavior. Hence the idea that empathizing with a child who's whining, will result in continued and worse whining.

This is in direct contrast to gentle discipline, which promotes a view of children as little people who desire to live in happy, loving, cooperative relationships with others, but *who need our help to learn empathy* and to learn about the effects of their behavior on others.

There may seem to be some overlap on the surface. For instance, LLL says that a baby who learns that he has to scream to get the breast, quickly learns to skip the preliminary phases of signaling hunger, such as rooting around, and just moves straight to screaming to get the fastest response.

So LLL recommends snuggling Baby close, and being attentive to those initial hunger cues, so you can latch Baby on and show him that screaming isn't necessary to get his needs met.

Therefore, gentle discipline advocates, such as LLL, *do* believe there's a relationship between what parents do and how children behave -- but it's still really the opposite of behaviorism, whose advocates often advise mothers to let babies fuss a bit before feeding, so they won't think their screaming will get "rewarded."

There are two very different attitudes toward infant screaming being expressed here: whereas I think *all* parents agree that screaming is unpleasant to listen to, behaviorists tend to perceive it as something that needs to be "negatively reinforced" out of the child (by withholding the sought-after "reward" ... which is really just punishment plain and simple).

Parents who practice gentle discipline view screaming as communication: it's the child's method for getting his needs met, if his more quiet hunger cues have consistently been ignored. Therefore, to avoid things reaching the screaming phase -- or to show an infant who was previously ignored, that things have changed and the parent is no longer going to make the child scream for his supper -- the gentle discipline parent is going to start holding Baby close and responding quickly at the first signal.

In the same way, I don't think any parent finds whining pleasant -- but a gentle discipline parent is more inclined to respond to *the need beneath the whining -- such as the need for empathy and attention*. There's less focus on making sure the whining is "nipped in the bud," and more focus on creating a situation where the child no longer feels he has to whine to get his needs met.

Edited to Add: Therefore, to try to finish my thought: the behaviorist perspective would be that any parent who believes in responding to every, "Mommy, I want ..." with empathy, must simply have a child who never whines. Because if the parent had a child who whines, she'd understand that empathy "doesn't work" in every situation and can sometimes "reinforce" the whining.


Hmm...I guess my view is the opposite of both--I *do* think kids are born wanting to live cooperatively and I *don't* think they need to be taught empathy. How can you say kids are born social creatures but aren't born empathetic? That seems like an oxymoron. When it comes to being able to resist advertising and consumerism though, yeah I think my DS was born a pretty "blank slate" with regard to that. I don't think he whines for stuff because he has unmet needs (at least not always), he does it because he's a kid and naturally if he sees a cool toy he's going to want it.







I don't see that as a character flaw or even something that needs to be "nipped in the bud." But it's definately not something that I feel warrants empathy. I don't really go out of my way to be negative either. To me, "you don't need another toy right now" is just telling it like it is. Am I risking my DS growing up with a crushed spirit and an inability to empathize with other people? I doubt it.









I also think there's a _huge_ difference between infants and preschoolers and older kids, nobody was advocating CIO.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mz_libbie22* 
How can you say kids are born social creatures but aren't born empathetic? That seems like an oxymoron.

I don't see it as an oxymoron to say that children are born social creatures, with a desire for loving relationships -- and also to say that they view themselves as the center of the world, and think of everything in terms of how it affects them. A person can be social and still need help learning to see things from others' points of view (which is empathy).

Quote:

I also think there's a _huge_ difference between infants and preschoolers and older kids, nobody was advocating CIO.








I made the comparison with CIO, to illustrate the difference between behaviorism and gentle discipline ... and went on to tie it in with parents' differing responses to a child saying, Mommy, I want ..." Gentle discipline (as I see it) doesn't advocate worrying that empathy will "reinforce" whining or materialism.

Also, I guess I misunderstood you in your previous post: I understood you as saying that empathizing might send your son the message that it was okay to want things he didn't need ... in other words, I thought you were concerned about "reinforcing" materialism.

Now you say that you don't see anything wrong with your child wanting things, and you don't see this as behavior that should be "nipped in the bud." So ... where's the harm in empathizing, then?

While I agree that there are many differences between infants, preschoolers, and older kids -- I still see behavior as communication to be listened to, and I think I should take my children's dreams and desires seriously.

I realize it's often more complicated than when they were infants, and so much was solved by the breast. Whereas the nursing mama succeeds in meeting her infant's needs by giving him the breast when he asks for it -- the mother of an older child isn't necessarily meeting the real need by unthinkingly buying every toy the child asks for.

As an example, I know a mother who couldn't stand her toddler's shrieking, so when he shrieked she quickly moved to stop the noise. Since he often shrieked for whatever toy his older brother was playing with, she got into the habit of making her older child hand the toys to the baby, just to shut him up.

He was still a very discontented child ... though on the surface it looked like what he wanted was the toys, I think he was really seeking for more interactive play -- a need which might have been met by his mother getting down on the floor, and playing and talking with him. He saw his brother having fun with the toys, and wanted to have fun, too.

Also, I think in families where there's a lot of "trumping" going on (i.e. "I know you want X, but so-and-so wants Y, and his want trumps yours this time, so you can't have X"), a child may get the idea that the way to know he's important, is to see his wants "trumping" others' wants as much as possible.

As our children grow, I think parenting becomes more complex, and we have to do more listening to figure out what is really being sought. Sometimes, for sure, the best way to help our children to achieve a dream is to buy the item they're asking for. Sometimes it's better to find out what experience it is that they're really seeking, and help them brainstorm other ways to get the experience they want, without, for instance, having to go into thousands of dollars of debt.

I don't know for sure if cutting the conversation short by saying, "You don't need that," will stunt a child's ability to develop empathy. But it does seem to close the door on at least one opportunity to think, imagine, and problem-solve.


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I don't know for sure if cutting the conversation short by saying, "You don't need that," will stunt a child's ability to develop empathy. But it does seem to close the door on at least one opportunity to think, imagine, and problem-solve.









:

I also think it's just a strange thing to say. "You don't need another Hot Wheels car." He didn't _need_ the first or second Hot Wheels car, either, but you presumably bought those for him. What makes the 25th car different?

The message it seems to me to send isn't that there's a difference between wants and needs. The message I'd get, if I were the child, is that you, the parent, decide what you're in the mood to buy on a particular day, by some seemingly arbitrary criteria.









I guess it would make more sense to me if you always told your children, "You don't need that," when they asked you for anything beyond the basic necessities of life, but who actually does that?


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ruhbehka* 

I also think it's just a strange thing to say. "You don't need another Hot Wheels car." He didn't _need_ the first or second Hot Wheels car, either, but you presumably bought those for him. What makes the 25th car different?

The message it seems to me to send isn't that there's a difference between wants and needs. The message I'd get, if I were the child, is that you, the parent, decide what you're in the mood to buy on a particular day, by some seemingly arbitrary criteria.









I guess it would make more sense to me if you always told your children, "You don't need that," when they asked you for anything beyond the basic necessities of life, but who actually does that?

This is a really good point. I hadn't thought of that before.

Also..I remembering looking at candles at a department store and my MIL said "you don't need any more candles" (I have quite a few, I love them) and I was like "where does she get off..." I can't imagine why a child would appreciate being told that anymore than I did.

She could have simply said "you have a lot of candles, you must really like them"

I work really hard to not say things to my children that I don't want said to me. I try to present things in a way that is respectful of them as a person.

and sure, I didn't need any more candles..but I don't think it was her place to tell me what my needs were(even though she was right) and I don't think it's my place to tell my children. What I will do though is help them figure out for themselves. They are young and even when they know what their needs are they don't always know how to express them.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 
Also..I remembering looking at candles at a department store and my MIL said "you don't need any more candles" (I have quite a few, I love them) and I was like "where does she get off..."I can't imagine why a child would appreciate being told that anymore than I did.

She could have simply said "you have a lot of candles, you must really like them"

So true.

And what's the fastest way to prove that person wrong? Buy the thing, of course. Prove to them that you DO need it (even if you don't) and that YOU will decide what you need and don't thankyouverymuch.

I don't think most people like it when others make those sorts of calls for them. I know I wouldn't.

It's just one of those, "it only takes a minute to be kind," situations for me. And in the case of your MIL: "Manners are free."


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
So true.

And what's the fastest way to prove that person wrong? Buy the thing, of course. Prove to them that you DO need it (even if you don't) and that YOU will decide what you need and don't thankyouverymuch.

I don't think most people like it when others make those sorts of calls for them. I know I wouldn't.

It's just one of those, "it only takes a minute to be kind," situations for me. And in the case of your MIL: "Manners are free."









I did..I bought it
















My Mil...it's just simply the way she is...irritating but harmless.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 
I did..I bought it
















Oh, no!









It's human nature, I'm telling ya.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
Oh, no!









It's human nature, I'm telling ya.

I'm so easy







....it's in the bathroom..it smells nice and it is really good quality and burns a really long time...I really did need it, I really did


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mz_libbie22* 
How can you say kids are born social creatures but aren't born empathetic? That seems like an oxymoron.

I posted upthread that my upbringing was very traditional, and honestly, I don't think I learned empathy until I graduated from college--and I think I learned then because the people I worked with talked to me, and let me see the world honestly. My parents simply didn't talk to me about anything that mattered.


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## 93085 (Oct 11, 2007)

Mammalmama, I think you've been really unfair on a couple of points here. The Nazi comment was really quite out-of-line, and hardly an original analogy (as you yourself pointed out).

You seem to assume that (with the hypothetical situation that thas been frequently discussed here) my honesty about the impossibility of ever buying my daughter a horse is akin to my complete shutting down of any desire she may ever have to learn more about horses or to interact with them directly. Nothing could be further from the truth. I wholeheartedly agree with you that figuring out how to satisfy that curiosity nd interest in more logistically feasible ways would be an elegant and empathetic way to approach the situation. That, indeed, is what I would choose to do, to the degree that is reasonably possible.

But buying a horse is, now and always, an impossibility, and I cannot believe that being honest about that, in a kind and sympathetic way, would erode attachment. In fact, I think that a kind "no" in this regard--with the understanding that, when she is an adult, she may choose for herself--is more ethically sound than leading her to believe that she may someday be successful in talking me and DH into buying her a horse, when I _know_, _now_, that will never happen.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Jessica, I'm sorry you feel I've been unfair. I've already realized the Nazi analogy was ill-avised from many different angles, and acknowledged as much ... so, like Forest Gump, "That's all I have to say about that" (at least, it's all I can think of right now).

As far as what I said about the horse, I'm glad to hear that you are open to brainstorming with your daughter about various ways to achieve her horse-related dreams. I'd had the impression that you (or maybe it was another poster -- I'm not sure, and haven't gone back to check) felt that this sort of brainstorming was "giving the illusion of choice where there really was no choice."

I guess I just don't believe in ever saying "never" about stuff. I feel like I never really know for sure what might become possible over time. So while I certainly wouldn't _promise_ my child a horse, I wouldn't feel like I was "giving the illusion of choice" by saying, "Let's pursue your interest in the ways we can right now, and we'll just see what works out."


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

About empathy -- I do realize that some kinds of empathy require absolutely no explanation on our part, for kids to pick up on them.

For instance, I believe that all children who are accustomed to having their own cries compassionately responded to, will automatically respond to other children's cries with compassion. I've noticed this empathy in both my girls, from a very early age.

I was saddened once in the library, to see a 6yo girl yelling "shut up" to her weeping baby brother or sister, and laughing at/making fun of the crying child. The baby was crying in the stroller while the mother focused on the transaction she was involved in at the checkout desk -- not just for a moment, more like several minutes, and seemed to be ignoring the child.

Of course, I've read some posts here by mothers who say that they may look like bad mothers, because sometimes their babies have meltdowns where they don't want anyone to touch them, and it's better to just leave them screaming in the stroller. So I'm not going to presume about what was happening in that mother's mind, or why she wasn't picking up her baby. Maybe the baby really didn't want to be picked up.

But I was shocked at the way the 6yo was treating her crying sibling: it ran counter to the compassionate response I'm accustomed to seeing from any child (not just my own) when confronted with a crying infant. I think of this compassion as pretty basic, and wonder what happened to make the girl want to ridicule instead of comfort. Still, I don't know the family, and realize there may be some factors at play that I'm not familiar with.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

I just stumbled on this awesome thread (I so need to read here in GD more often!)

I wanted to respond to this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Writerbird* 
Mammal_mama, I think you put it very well, and your phrasing was free of judgment. You have a rare gift, and I hope you can tell I mean that sincerely.









It sums up fairly succinctly why this board has so much... drama, and why I don't think I can do GD.

As someone whose kid is currently on the inside and therefore perfect in every way (







), I categorically refuse to choose a parenting method at this time. I need to see what his personality is like before I choose a method, for heaven's sake. But I am trying to do my research in advance, and figure out what I can do/live with/learn. Obviously GD is something I needed to learn more about before making that call, since more mainstream methods are all around me. Lurking here has been... educational, and I've been forming opinions.

I read the OP, and after all my reading here, I too immediately thought "that small child is trying to communicate that he wants to leave the bookstore, and feels unheard." It seems like this thread split into two camps - those who thought that the mother and child should therefore leave the store, and those who thought the mother and child should complete the errand.

I want my son to be happy and successful in a world that is neither gentle nor fair. It usually IS someone's turn to bite the bullet when it comes to unpleasant but necessary tasks. If I can teach him to do so with grace, without being a doormat, I will have succeeded at the only thing I'll ever do that really matters. It seems like teaching him from a very early age that his needs, preferences, and whims are always the final veto will set him up to fail in life, and to be a very unhappy person in general. That may not be the intent of GD, but it sounds, to me, as though that is the way it is practiced by the most zealous of the method's adherents.

I wish there was a discipline forum with a bit of a happy medium, because I expect that's where most of us fall.

You might just find that your LO comes out with an "easy" temperament. All 4 of mine have! (OK, can't be sure about the baby just yet







). My kids LOVE to go to the store with me, they brush their teeth willingly, etc. They are not perfect or anything, but- with their "easy-ness", I've found that a little Playful Parenting goes a long way.

Just wanted to say it, so you won't be too scared/worried. Some kids are just easily agreeable. We are lucky because dh and I are both "easy going" too, so- we rarely have major meltdowns to deal with.

More in the vein of the OP, upon seeing a "misbehaving" child, my MIL will say "that child needs a crack"







, whereas my mom would say "that poor child seems hungry/tired, etc." So- I can see the difference in perspectives really clearly.

On a more philosophical level (since I see from your siggie you are Catholic too), I feel this speaks to "the dignity of the human person" quite well


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
About empathy -- I do realize that some kinds of empathy require absolutely no explanation on our part, for kids to pick up on them.

For instance, I believe that all children who are accustomed to having their own cries compassionately responded to, will automatically respond to other children's cries with compassion. I've noticed this empathy in both my girls, from a very early age.


Well, um, I never let either ds CIO, and I never tell them to shut up when they are upset, or crying, and my ds1 has taken to telling his brother to "cry your speckled brains out". (see sig)







Not very empathetic, but also nothing we have ever said, or done to him, so...







:


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *L&IsMama* 
Well, um, I never let either ds CIO, and I never tell them to shut up when they are upset, or crying, and my ds1 has taken to telling his brother to "cry your speckled brains out". (see sig)








Not very empathetic, but also nothing we have ever said, or done to him, so...







:

Okay, I notice that your sons are 4.5 and 3 -- so I'm guessing that sometimes they do stuff to make each other mad? I think it's fairly normal to siblings to sometimes say mean stuff to each other.

I didn't mean to make it so black-and-white, as if *all* children who are raised compassionately, will *always* respond compassionately to crying children (but I realize that's exactly how I put it, I'm sorry). Especially as kids get older and get into quarrels, they can get pretty mean at times.

But in my example of the 6yo making fun of her crying baby sibling, and yelling, "Shut up!" -- that just seemed pretty atypical IMO. But only that family knows all the particulars of their unique situation.


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Okay, I notice that your sons are 4.5 and 3 -- so I'm guessing that sometimes they do stuff to make each other mad?

Oh, yes! All. the. time.







:


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## 93085 (Oct 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Jessica, I'm sorry you feel I've been unfair.
(snip)
As far as what I said about the horse, I'm glad to hear that you are open to brainstorming with your daughter about various ways to achieve her horse-related dreams. I'd had the impression that you (or maybe it was another poster -- I'm not sure, and haven't gone back to check) felt that this sort of brainstorming was "giving the illusion of choice where there really was no choice."

Those are my words, all right, but that's not the context in which I'd said them. I was responding to this from crwilson, which I quoted:

Quote:

when I really, really, really wanted a horse, my parents were very good about it, even though they definitely didn't want a horse. They helped me calculate all the things that we would need, how much it would cost, and they also had me research all the things that I would have to do to take care of a horse. In other words, they took me seriously, even though I was probably about 9-10, when they could have just said no, too expensive, too much work. I'd like to be to do things like that.
This is what I saw as giving the "illusion of choice"--encouraging the child to research buying a horse _as if_ it were a real option, with the goal of having them reach the conclusion that it is impossible before the parent has to say it. _And I stated that I don't think there is anything wrong with it_--that I might very well do things that way myself. But that at no point is it a true exercise of choice for the child. And that it is wrong (IMHO) to hold it out as the ethically superior approach to empathetically saying "no" at the outset. Either way can be kind, just, and attachment promoting, depending upon the child or the situation.

I think that steering said child toward horse-riding lessons, equestrian camp, therapy horses, whatever--all of which are great ideas--is a completely separate, unrelated approach and could be used in tandem with either of the responses above.

Quote:

I guess I just don't believe in ever saying "never" about stuff. I feel like I never really know for sure what might become possible over time. So while I certainly wouldn't _promise_ my child a horse, I wouldn't feel like I was "giving the illusion of choice" by saying, "Let's pursue your interest in the ways we can right now, and we'll just see what works out."
Fair enough; and in most cases I would take a similar approach. Just not horse buying. I have been trying to think of another example but I'm stuck on horses. LOL.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Okay so I wandered back over and I'm trying to understand....Is it an ethical thing about the horses or that they're too expensive or is it something else? Is it like, "I will never buy my 16 year old a car?


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## 93085 (Oct 11, 2007)

Also, this exchange both amused and frustrated me:

Quote:

Quote:
Well, I don't think anyone likes to be told that they are being inconsiderate, but sometimes it needs to be said, don't you think so?

Quote:

My thing is, I feel it would be extremely inconsiderate for me to presume to tell someone else whether s/he has a valid reason to be upset.
So it's inconsiderate to tell someone they are being inconsiderate? LOL

Quote:

Quote:
I think that's the sign of a healthy relationship and interpersonal dynamic that we listen to each other even when it's not all sunshine and roses.

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Yes, I agree. However, I also see the ability to stop my "tantrum," and listen and be rational while someone else tells me what a jerk I'm being, as a real mark of maturity. It's way more maturity than many adults are able to muster up when their emotions are raging.
Well, first of all, I don't have "tantrums"--my form of being inconsiderate is to make plans or organize our day according to what my vision of our priorities is. If I'm failing to recognize the priorities of my daughters or DH, or if I'm weighting things too heavily toward my own priorities, it's good that they feel open to speak up about it. Sure, if I were a perfect and perfectly mature person I wouldn't do this in the first place, but heck, I'm just human, and so are the other members of my family. No one will go through life without ever being inconsiderate or unfair, or without bearing the brunt of someone else's unfairness. I think it's good to model directness and discourse about this kind of thing.

Quote:

So, I would see the ability to listen "when it's not all sunshine and roses" (I'm assuming this means when the storms are raging and thorns are pricking?) as something that maybe I should try to model for my dear children -- but not an ability that I'd expect them to have right-off-the-bat (especially since I don't consistently have this ability at age 43!).
Yes, I agree--I don't _expect_ them to do it at all. I don't chastise or punish for being "inconsiderate" or "unreasonable" or "unfair"--and I don't use those words to describe or label their behaviors, either. (I should interject that, of course--I'm talking about my _ideals_--like all parents, I sometimes slip and use language that I know is not best.) I honestly and empathetically (as much as possible) explain the emotions and situation at hand to help DD1 think beyond her own desires, to understand that other needs/wants have to take first priority. I.e.:

"I know, it is so hard to leave the fair when you are having so much fun, isn't it? But tiny girl [that's what we call her sister







] has really got to get in the car so she can rest; see how unhappy she is? And we should get home so that we can have supper. How about we take one more ride on the carousel and then we hit the road, sound good?"

or, to take the case in point:

"Oh honey, it really _would_ be so much fun for you to have a pony in the backyard that you could ride to school every day, but the thing is that ponies are _very_ expensive to buy and take care of, and we just can't afford one. Also our yard is much too small for a pony to live in, and the pony would be really unhappy without a great big meadow to run around in every day. Maybe we can think of some other way that you can be around ponies."

And when I'm baldly putting my own personal needs above hers, I try to be honest about that, too:

"Sweetie, I know you really, really want to play a computer game with me right now, but the truth is I'm having a really hard day, and I'm super tired because tiny girl was up all night last night, and I just really, really need some grown-up quiet time so that I can be a better mommy to both of you in the afternoon. I am asking you to try to understand that, and to do me the really big favor of just playing on your own for a little while until I am better rested. Then we'll play a computer game or do something else fun that you want to do."

Truly, that's all I've been talking about. And if that seriously runs counter to what gentle discipline is all about, well then smack my a$$ and call me Sally, and I'll not darken this forum again.


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## 93085 (Oct 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Okay so I wandered back over and I'm trying to understand....Is it an ethical thing about the horses or that they're too expensive or is it something else? Is it like, "I will never buy my 16 year old a car?

Probably I just explained this in my cross-post, LOL:

"Oh honey, it really would be so much fun for you to have a pony in the backyard that you could ride to school every day, but the thing is that ponies are very expensive to buy and take care of, and we just can't afford one. Also our yard is much too small for a pony to live in, and the pony would be really unhappy without a great big meadow to run around in every day. Maybe we can think of some other way that you can be around ponies."

Mostly too expensive--and because I do think that having any kind of animal in your care is a serious responsibility--and we are not in any way equipped to take care of a horse.









If I had the money, which is not bloody likely, I could see myself buying my teenager a car, so that's not something I'd state an unequivocal "no" to. Taking care of a car is something DH and I could help with and advise on.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Deleted because I realised I was re-hashing the derailment issue.


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## 93085 (Oct 11, 2007)

I do know that this wasn't what the OP was about. I thought the OP was a really nice post, actually, and I don't disagree with any of it.

It seems that most of this thread has been discussion stemming from the third or fourth post. I don't have a problem (clearly) with threads taking that kind of route, but I am sorry that it's been frustrating for others.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jescafa* 
Probably I just explained this in my cross-post, LOL:

"Oh honey, it really would be so much fun for you to have a pony in the backyard that you could ride to school every day, but the thing is that ponies are very expensive to buy and take care of, and we just can't afford one. Also our yard is much too small for a pony to live in, and the pony would be really unhappy without a great big meadow to run around in every day. Maybe we can think of some other way that you can be around ponies."

Mostly too expensive--and because I do think that having any kind of animal in your care is a serious responsibility--and we are not in any way equipped to take care of a horse.









If I had the money, which is not bloody likely, I could see myself buying my teenager a car, so that's not something I'd state an unequivocal "no" to. Taking care of a car is something DH and I could help with and advise on.

Got it. If we did end up buying a horse, it'd likely be around the same cost as a small car and we'd have to board it. Which is, of course, a huge responsibility.

If dp weren't "horse-y" I'd probably think the same way as you. I wish it were safe to share pics over the Internet. I have a great one of the 3 of them at a sheep farm they go to for a homeschooling class/gathering/club a couple times a month. You could see my 7 year old working to clip the sheeps' hooves and my 3 year old nose to nose with a horse. Animals seem to really take to both of them.

It's work and it's a wonderful learning opportunity.


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## 93085 (Oct 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Got it. If we did end up buying a horse, it'd likely be around the same cost as a small car and we'd have to board it. Which is, of course, a huge responsibility.

If dp weren't "horse-y" I'd probably think the same way as you. I wish it were safe to share pics over the Internet. I have a great one of the 3 of them at a sheep farm they go to for a homeschooling class/gathering/club a couple times a month. You could see my 7 year old working to clip the sheeps' hooves and my 3 year old nose to nose with a horse. Animals seem to really take to both of them.

It's work and it's a wonderful learning opportunity.

Oh, absolutely--if you have the budget, the time, and the skills, I could see how it would be an incredible thing for a child or family to own a horse. I was making the "unequivocal no" point _ONLY_ for my own family.

We love animals too, but cats are more our speed. I'm a bit intimidated even at the responsibility of owning a dog--neither DH nor I has any experience--but I do think that could be up for discussion someday.


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## crwilson (Mar 13, 2007)

Since we're using the horse example, which I initially posted (and realized I made grammatical mistakes on







), I wanted to clarify a couple of things. In my case, I think my parents may have actually let me get a horse had I really, really wanted to after the research. I grew up on a giant, nonworking farm, so we did have room for one. I don't think that my parents were being misleading when they helped me speculate/research.

I'm not sure how I feel about the appropriate response if there really is no way a horse (or whatever desired thing) can be gotten. At the same time, isn't it good for children to learn this for themselves? That is, the child, after researching properly, would also come to the conclusion that a horse couldn't live at his/her house because the yard isn't big enough and there's no place to ride, etc. Of course, this is age dependent, but I imagine the same theory might apply to younger children too.


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## 93085 (Oct 11, 2007)

Hey, thanks for clarifying. I think I just assumed you didn't get the horse! LOL.

Quote:

At the same time, isn't it good for children to learn this for themselves? That is, the child, after researching properly, would also come to the conclusion that a horse couldn't live at his/her house because the yard isn't big enough and there's no place to ride, etc. Of course, this is age dependent, but I imagine the same theory might apply to younger children too.
I agree that depending upon the situation it could be a totally legitimate approach.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jescafa* 
So it's inconsiderate to tell someone they are being inconsiderate? LOL

I think it can be -- if the thing you're labeling as "inconsiderate," is that your child is upset about something that you don't perceive as a "valid" reason -- and the pp seemed (to me) to be using the word "inconsiderate" interchangeably with "being upset for reasons the parent doesn't see as valid." As always, I'm open to being corrected if I got it all wrong.

Quote:

Well, first of all, I don't have "tantrums"--my form of being inconsiderate is to make plans or organize our day according to what my vision of our priorities is. If I'm failing to recognize the priorities of my daughters or DH, or if I'm weighting things too heavily toward my own priorities, it's good that they feel open to speak up about it.
See, I see people speaking up about not liking the plans for the day, as a whole different kettle-of-fish from parents deciding a child who's upset, doesn't have a "valid reason" to be upset. I just don't see it as inconsiderate for my child to to have strong emotions (even at inconvenient times) about things that I wouldn't be upset about, or wouldn't have thought that *she* would be upset about.

I may not instantly understand -- and sure, I don't always live totally in accordance with my parenting ideals, so sometimes I fail to respond as compassionately as I feel I should have. But when *I'm* so wrapped up in whatever other agenda is getting in my way of tuning in to my child right away -- I feel *I'm* the one being inconsiderate, not my child for having the emotions.

As far as your responses (as I now understand more fully) about the horse, and about not being able to play the computer game right then, I certainly don't see anything "not GD" here -- though of course it doesn't really hinge on what I think. It's more how you feel about what you're doing: I'll just affirm that I think you should feel pretty good about it.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
But I was shocked at the way the 6yo was treating her crying sibling: it ran counter to the compassionate response I'm accustomed to seeing from any child (not just my own) when confronted with a crying infant. I think of this compassion as pretty basic, and wonder what happened to make the girl want to ridicule instead of comfort. Still, I don't know the family, and realize there may be some factors at play that I'm not familiar with.

My 7yo would be the one doign this to his crying little sister. We model empathy, we talk about empathy, we talk about trying to understand how the other person feels...

and at the end of the day? He's tired of his little sister crying and tells her to shut up. I have *never* told either of my children to shut up. Yet... there it is.

While its nice to think that modelling means children will behave exactly as you behave to them, they forge their own relationships with others, which are sometimes the opposite of what they experience in their own lives.


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## 93085 (Oct 11, 2007)

I still feel like we're talking in circles here.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
See, I see people speaking up about not liking the plans for the day, as a whole different kettle-of-fish from parents deciding a child who's upset, doesn't have a "valid reason" to be upset. I just don't see it as inconsiderate for my child to to have strong emotions (even at inconvenient times) about things that I wouldn't be upset about, or wouldn't have thought that *she* would be upset about.

Right, that's what I was saying--they'd be right to call me on it, because it was inconsiderate of me. Like I'd be right to call DD1 on demanding a computer game while her sister was naked, poopy, and screaming her head off. Tact is recommended in all cases, though again, people are human, and sometimes there are tears and/or angry tones, from adults as well as children. We should still listen to each other; it goes both ways.

Quote:

I may not instantly understand -- and sure, I don't always live totally in accordance with my parenting ideals, so sometimes I fail to respond as compassionately as I feel I should have. But when *I'm* so wrapped up in whatever other agenda is getting in my way of tuning in to my child right away -- I feel *I'm* the one being inconsiderate, not my child for having the emotions.
Right, I agree--me being absorbed in my own agenda was my example of ME being inconsiderate, not my family. I would hope that they will always feel free to tell me if I am, or seem to be, thinking only or mostly of my own needs, to the detriment of the larger family. I model this by (kindly and empathetically) doing the same for them.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 

I guess I just don't believe in ever saying "never" about stuff. I feel like I never really know for sure what might become possible over time. So while I certainly wouldn't _promise_ my child a horse, I wouldn't feel like I was "giving the illusion of choice" by saying, "Let's pursue your interest in the ways we can right now, and we'll just see what works out."

You know, this is another thing that ... to borrow that phrase again ... gives "the illusion of choice." Or maybe "the illusion of not saying no" would be better.

I had been using variants on "we'll see" a lot with my 7yo, for situations like this, becuase I didn't want to always be saying no. And the other day we had a really interesting conversation with him about what he perceived as *how* DH and I were using "we'll see" and "maybe." Because he said "Sometimes, 'we'll see' means 'no,' doesn't it??"

So we talked about how a lot of times when he asks about stuff, I dont' want to say "no" right away, because it is more fun to be able to say "yes," and I really do need to think about it, and sometimes the answer really is going to be "no," and I try to say that, too. I try to save "we'll see" for times when I don't know how it could work out, but there's a chance it might.

And he was very cool with that.

I think "we'll see" if you really aren't going to see -- if there really is no possibility that what is being asked for will happen -- is lying to children, honestly. It makes them think that there is a chance, that you *are* thinking about it. And I try hard not to do that.

I wouldn't start using "we'll see" as some kind of synonym for "no," just out of some idea that one should never say no. There are some things in my life that I know will not be happening, whether for ethical or financial reasons, and I think its fairest to children to be honest about that. "We will not be going to that movie." "We don't buy things from that store." "We cannot afford that trip."


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## laoxinat (Sep 17, 2007)

RE: the horse scenario
IMO, the whole point of having the child do the research is to honestly assess the feasability of getting one. To me, this is a great opportunity for teaching budgeting, time management, responsibilty etc etc.
The whole point is that finding out for herself will teach her lessons that will be useful all her life, whereas saying no and/or explaining ad nauseam...won't. There are lots of things we "know" can't happen, but then, that's what "they" said before there were cars, computers, sliced bread....KWIM?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Savithny, about the crying -- as with the previous poster, I see you're talking about a 4yo. I did modify what I'd originally said about being compassionate with crying children (I realized I'd made it too black and white) -- and clarified that the incident in the library was a 6yo ridiculing an infant. But if you see it as the same thing as your son sometimes saying mean stuff to your crying 4yo, I'm sure your perspective is valid, too.

Also, I certainly never say "We'll see," if I have no intention of really seeing. It's not just a fun way to say "no" -- not for me, anyway. I don't believe in lying to my children.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laoxinat* 
There are lots of things we "know" can't happen, but then, that's what "they" said before there were cars, computers, sliced bread....KWIM?

Exactly!


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## momma-d (Feb 2, 2007)

I know I'm jumping in pretty late in the game on this thread, but it's really speaking to me...
I *love* the idea that nearly any scenario can be used as a learning and laughing tool. I completely get that it's not really about never saying "no," but more about approaching a situation in a creative, flexible way...just like the horse scenario. I love the notion of turning it into not only a learning opportunity (budgeting, the realities of caring for a horse, etc.), but also a chance to fantasize with your child about owning a horse and how cool it would be...lots of ways to connect on that one.
The GD apporoach is helping us right now with night-weaning our 18-month-old...it really helps her when I talk with her about her feelings and explain to her that she can have her "me-me" all day long when the sun is up, but after she has her night-time me-mes, they go to sleep until the sun comes up again. I can see how much harder it would be for her (and subsequently for me) if I just took it away with no explanation, by saying "you can't have that...", iykwim. In my experience (and I'll grant that it's not a long one), that taking away or just saying "no" without providing explanation and allowing for dialogue, just sets everyone up for more upset...


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## Dusky Jozephine (Jan 29, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ruhbehka* 
It was kind of an interesting experience, because we both realized how far we had come down the gentle discipline spectrum. In the past, we would have watched this scenario play out and thought that the mom was doing "ineffective" things to curb the little one's "misbehavior." (She gave her a swat on the bottom at one point, not particularly hard, tried reasoning with her, tried to get her to pick out a book, ignored her, etc.)

This time, we both watched this and thought, "This little one clearly doesn't want to be book shopping right now, and she is trying harder and harder to convey that message to her mom, who isn't seeming to get the message."

_I think this is rather unfair. I know exactly what my kids are trying to tell me. But I cannot always do as they wish. To the bystander it may look as though I'm not getting it. But I do. And I always tell my children that I do understand what want, but right now we need to do xyz. And I reason with them. And I try to include them. And I try to distract them with picking out a book. And then I do ignore them, because I have to finish.

And NO parent takes an unnecessary shopping trip with a cranky toddler. She may have looked to any given bystander like she was browsing, but I would lay money that she wasn't. And I have spent my share of time in a shop with little ones while waiting for someone else, because that was the available option. She may not have even been shopping. She may have just needed to be there.

I believe she not only got her child's message, but most likely wanted nothing more than to leave too.

Poor thing, she was just happy to get home that afternoon, lay her babe down for a nap, have a cup of tea, and think, "Wow we survived that. Not bad.







I hope we never have to again." and little does she know that she is the seed of discussion among complete strangers. A discussion started with the assumption that she doesn't understand the needs of her own child._


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## mamahart (Sep 25, 2007)

I couldn't read this whole thread but I wanted to comment because when I read the first thread here that I saw as "child-centric" without regard to the mom I was upset and actually complained to the moderator because I found some of the language and ideas so completely idealistic and impossible that it was just agitating.
However. I wish I could apologize now to some of the "CL" people because over the past few months some of the concepts have worked thier way in to my consciousness and it has been a blessing.
For instance, I live in a very very remote and rural place. I order my food from catalog and the nearest grocery is an hour away- the nearest one I would actually shop at is more like 4 hours away. No bookstore, walmart, target within 2 1/2 hours. So when I am in town I NEED to shop right??
Well, my last visit to town my little boy, 3, was just not having an easy time of it and I CHOSE to make some real clear decisions about what I wanted and needed. I did not shop. A quick run for TP and toothpaste and I DECIDED to go without items that would cause turmoil for the little guy.
I don't know how to explain but choosing not to haul him through target while I bought bras made it ok to come home and wear the old bra. He will be older and able to "deal" soon enough. I can "deal" for now.
It may sound judgemental but really I am just happy I don't "have to" do a lot of the things I used to do. What I DO get to do is snuggle with my guy and know I get to watch him for the rest of my ever lovin life.
And any person who reads this could take the POV that this is my particular choice and I am not saying it is better than yours, it is just my choice. Thanks!


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Chanting to mamahart:
"One of us! One of us! One of us!"





























:


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
Chanting to mamahart:
"One of us! One of us! One of us!"





























:









Yay!!!


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## tulips117 (Feb 23, 2005)

Just thinking about this thread has reminded me to see my kids for what they are, just little souls who have been on this earth for such a short time. That said, late this afternoon DH and I had to take them with us to get our taxes done. It was a 5:30 appt which took close to two hours and boy were they out of hand. Believe me, I brought healthy snacks, crayons, books, toys...then resorted to lollipops and M&Ms! Somethings just can't be helped. I *know* it was a bad time of day for them, but that's when DH is home from work and we could do it. I *know* they have no interest sitting in an accountant's office when they want to be home having dinner and getting ready for bed, but it was an important meeting and simply HAD to be done. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

So, what I'm trying to say is...I try to do better. And somedays I do...and some days, I don't. Que Sera Sera!


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## theirmomjayne (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
This is so interesting. I am the most avid reader I know and I can't imagine such a book emergency.

What are you envisioning?

I was thinking that she might have been searching for a present for someone, or a book that an older child might need for school.


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
As an example, I recall Jean Liedloff talked in _The Continuum Concept_ about how the South American Indians she lived among let the little girls join in with the manioc-grating as they got the urge, going off to play when they tired of it, without any repercussions from the adult women, or any insistence that they finish what they started. Yet at some point, all the girls grew to fully participate in adult society. By choice.

Let us not forget that these cultures also have a concept of 'elders' as the authority and respect figures whom the children listen to. The above activity is also indicative of the women seeing the kids' participation as an extension of their play and not as a joint activity where everybody needs to pull their weight, so to speak. A major distinction which invalidates this example is the very nature of these societies which are often tight knit communities where children are within a protective circle as compared to western society which is more individual centric and isolated units from the larger group setting.


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## Girlymomwithsons (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdahoMom* 
I'm glad it's not just me. I try to time everything so that everyone is happy and best-equipped for an outing, but sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and go. go (and yes, sometimes it's a bookstore or something other than groceries). My job isn't to make sure they always get what they want, but to teach them how to deal with negative feelings.

Oh I agree so much. I was going to say that we sometimes go places that a lot of you wouldn't think are essential but try being cooped up in the house for weeks at a time because there is 4 feet of snow outside, and you don't know anyone in the new town you just moved to. (Last year, this was us. This year, there is less snow, and we know people know, and the kids are a year older, but it still applies) Sometimes, in order to keep my sanity, and keep being gentle with my kids, I needed to get out, just about anywhere. There is only so much fun to be had a a grocery store, and when your husband is out of town 2 weeks for every week at home, it is up to you to do all the shopping, of all kinds. So yeah, sometimes, this scenario was me (the tantrum part, not the ways she went about stopping it.) But I have always felt that sometimes it's best to avoid whatever is not apealing to the kids, but sometimes, they need to learn that we can make any job fun if we try, and that sometimes, no one enjoys what we are doing, but it still needs to be done. We stuggled through that a lot, and now, both my kids are able to "suffer through" as long as we don't purposefully dawdle.
(The one year old is surprisingly adept at this, but he follows his brothers example. My oldest at this age was not so understanding.) They have to learn about dealing with negative feelings in a productive way, and it's best, in my opinion to have them learn about them in a real situation.


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## mamahart (Sep 25, 2007)

I am the wife of a farmer who organically grows 90% of our produce, buy all natural cleaning products etc etc....(including organic sugar)
I LOVE M&M's as a way to get through those (doing taxes) moments. Yeah!This may be a thread in itself but I have recently noticed that rewarding my son ( chocolate is definitely his favorite) when he doesn't expect it is so so much fun!! I have been practicing giving lots of praise whenever I see positive behavior, so when he voluntarily got a rag to clean the marker he had drawn all over the fridge with...I gave him M&M's. Sunrise chocolate does make an organic version....I try and keep them around if I can.
The little guy spent I swear hours chanting "sometimes I get chocolate and sometimes I don't!" Then this theme kept on "sometimes I get to watch movies sometimes I don't"
things went a little off track when I heard, "sometimes I climb on the kitchen table and sometimes I don't" and "sometimes I draw on the floor and sometimes I don't"
Ha! I think he is getting it!!


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## spirit4ever (Nov 4, 2004)

just bumping so that i remember to come read


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## mbravebird (May 9, 2005)

You all sound like complete lunatics to me. And I am GD certifiable. I'm up late because I had to deal with a medical need for my son in the middle of the night, and I couldn't go back to sleep. The medical need involved tape, which my son hates, especially after two weeks in the hospital with lots of tape associated with lots of worse things. He was in the hospital for emergency brain surgery to control bleeding in his brain. It saved his life. He has hemophilia, so this is not a one-time danger, but in fact the very thing we were trying to prevent all these years that we've redirected his rowdier activities. Anyway, after the tape removal was done, my son said to me, "I wish I didn't have to do any of this." He was crying, my heart was breaking, we both knew he was talking about the whole shebang, not just the tape.

The philosophical ramblings about how we always have choice because we really *want* the thing we end up doing is so over-simplified and misdirected, although of course it is, on an intellectual and philosophical level, true. But on a parenting level, and when you're trying to help your child through something that is really tough that they really have to do, it ends up being not very useful to trot out the philosophical truths we've realized. Choice? Lunatics!

From a three-year old's point of view, we don't always have choice, simply because they don't always fully grasp all the options. And when they do grasp the options -- sickness or health, safety or danger, you know, the big ones they can understand fully -- it doesn't end up being all that helpful to remind them about it in the moment when they're facing the "choice". Of course I remind my son of the "choices" when we are facing something we need to do (I find "need to" to be a more helpful term than "have to"), but I do that as a way of making sure he remembers; I know by now that it's not really that helpful to him as he faces the difficulty. He will simply say "I don't want any of those choices!" when we talk about his options in a medically necessary situation. He just wants to change his reality, and at those times it is _really, really_ helpful to him if I stop talking about his philosophical ability to choose (as true as it might be) and start talking about his feelings and his resources to help him through the reality he faces. What's helpful to him is compassionate accompaniment through the necessary experience. This goes for situations big and small, medical or grocery store.

No, we don't always have real choice. But what we _do_ have is each other, what we _do_ have is love and support, what we _do_ have, fortunately, is inner and outer resources. Those are where our real choices lie. Those are the ones it is most important to teach kids, and humans, how to choose. We may not be able to choose or control a situation, but we can choose how we relate to it, and who we have by our side, and how we love each other through it. I, for one, am fine with having lost my innocence about this subject; it has taught me much. I am a much less anxious person now that I see my job as not to control or alter a situation, but to relate to it instead. Open-hearted, watchful, responsive. Those are my choices, and, to some degree, my son's. For now, he often needs to be able to choose to shout and wail, which is completely understandable. Not something that needs to be changed, and it would be a disservice to him if we were so uncomfortable with his shouting and wailing that we scurried around trying to right the impossible. Sometimes you just have to hold hands and go on.

Best to all of you.

April


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

April, I hope you ds is doing well. I think there is a world of difference between choosing to have a medically necessary procedure and choosing to be in a bookstore. It is like comparing apples and oranges. Nobody is going to die if they aren't in a bookstore when they think they _need_ to be. Nor is anyone going to starve to death if they decide to forgo grocery shopping because one member of their family is not feeling up to it.

The Serenity Prayer can be helpful here.
May I have the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
_And the wisdom to know the difference.

_Call me a lunatic if you will, (although I haven't responded yet to this thread, I happen to agree with those who believe we have a choice.) It is empowering to recognize that I actually don't have to be in the grocery store, or bookstore, and I feel awfully sorry for those who believe they have no choice.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac* 
April, I hope you ds is doing well. I think there is a world of difference between choosing to have a medically necessary procedure and choosing to be in a bookstore. It is like comparing apples and oranges. Nobody is going to die if they aren't in a bookstore when they think they _need_ to be. Nor is anyone going to starve to death if they decide to forgo grocery shopping because one member of their family is not feeling up to it.

The Serenity Prayer can be helpful here.
May I have the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
_And the wisdom to know the difference.

_Call me a lunatic if you will, (although I haven't responded yet to this thread, I happen to agree with those who believe we have a choice.) It is empowering to recognize that I actually don't have to be in the grocery store, or bookstore, and I feel awfully sorry for those who believe they have no choice.

ITA! Very well said.

April- your son is very blessed to have a mama doing so much to care for him gently.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mbravebird* 
From a three-year old's point of view, we don't always have choice, simply because they don't always fully grasp all the options. And when they do grasp the options -- sickness or health, safety or danger, you know, the big ones they can understand fully -- it doesn't end up being all that helpful to remind them about it in the moment when they're facing the "choice". Of course I remind my son of the "choices" when we are facing something we need to do (I find "need to" to be a more helpful term than "have to"), but I do that as a way of making sure he remembers; I know by now that it's not really that helpful to him as he faces the difficulty. He will simply say "I don't want any of those choices!" when we talk about his options in a medically necessary situation. He just wants to change his reality, and at those times it is _really, really_ helpful to him if I stop talking about his philosophical ability to choose (as true as it might be) and start talking about his feelings and his resources to help him through the reality he faces. What's helpful to him is compassionate accompaniment through the necessary experience. This goes for situations big and small, medical or grocery store.

No, we don't always have real choice. But what we _do_ have is each other, what we _do_ have is love and support, what we _do_ have, fortunately, is inner and outer resources. Those are where our real choices lie. Those are the ones it is most important to teach kids, and humans, how to choose. We may not be able to choose or control a situation, but we can choose how we relate to it, and who we have by our side, and how we love each other through it. I, for one, am fine with having lost my innocence about this subject; it has taught me much. I am a much less anxious person now that I see my job as not to control or alter a situation, but to relate to it instead. Open-hearted, watchful, responsive. Those are my choices, and, to some degree, my son's. For now, he often needs to be able to choose to shout and wail, which is completely understandable. Not something that needs to be changed, and it would be a disservice to him if we were so uncomfortable with his shouting and wailing that we scurried around trying to right the impossible. Sometimes you just have to hold hands and go on.

This really resonates with me. At those times when we can't see our choices, or the choice seems more like a non-choice because the only alternative(s) we see have such undesirable consequences that we would never choose them, when we can't control or change a situation or a person...at those times our *real* choice is in how we relate to the situation or the person, how we think about it, how we respond. Sometimes it's about relaxing into what *is,* accepting it warts and all, being okay with the uncertainty, and responding with compassion and empathy.

Recognizing how much choice we have to change things or do/not do things is empowering. And so is recognizing that even when we can't change things, even when we don't feel as though we have real choice, we can _always_ choose how we respond to and think about life and other people.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Sledg, yes!









mbravebird, sorry about your little one!









I do not assume that every parent would make the same choices/sacrifices mbravebird is making for her kid. I can think of one super pop star parent, currently in the news, who might not be willing to stay up with an ailing child or sit bedside at the hospital. I don't think she's the only one, you know?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mbravebird* 
We may not be able to choose or control a situation, but we can choose how we relate to it, and who we have by our side, and how we love each other through it.

And, when you come down to it, that's an amazing amount of choice.

April,







I hope your little guy is feeling better! What a rough night.

I don't think anyone here has implied that we have complete control over every. single. circumstance of our lives. And what you've shared actually shows how ridiculous it is, when people give the standard line about how children will never learn to deal with disappointment, if parents don't force it on them.

It's obvious that even the most radical unschooling/consensual living parent can't deliver up a perfect world where everything always happens the way her kids want it to. Kids are going to "get" that the world's not perfect, regardless of our parenting style. My concern *is not* that my kids "get it" about the things they can't change (I know they will) -- my concern *is* that they "get it" about their power to live creatively and courageously, making this imperfect world into a better place.

I like what abac shared about The Serenity Prayer. To me, what differentiates an empowered individual (like you) from a victim, is the ability to recognize the things that we really can change.

When faced with a negative circumstance that we *can't* change (at least not at this stage of human knowledge), our choice, as you so aptly put it, is how we're going to relate to the circumstance. What kind of network we're going to build. How accepting and affirming we're willing to be while our loved ones (including ourselves) are grappling with difficult emotions. And, of course, we don't expect our children to have an adult perspective on all this.

When faced with a negative circumstance that we *can* and should work to change, we pray for courage -- and I think we also pray for creativity, because if it's a huge problem, its solution is going to depend upon some other people catching our vision that it really is possible to turn this thing around.

Really, it takes *courage* to accept, and live creatively, while grappling with the stuff we *can't* change -- and it takes *serenity* to remain courageous, and *keep on* thinking creatively when we believe that something *can* be changed, but everyone around us is scoffing and insisting that it's "just the way it is."


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## mbravebird (May 9, 2005)

Well, I have been feeling wrong all day about calling you lovely folks lunatics. Last night, in the midst of my reality clashing with more normal realities, it felt accurate, but after a few hours sleep I realized very clearly that calling anyone here a lunatic is completely inappropriate. I am feeling regret about my disrespectful language, because it did not communicate how much I respect and see the validity of all the articulate thinking everyone in this thread has been doing. I apologize.

I agree that it is incredibly empowering to see possibilities in a situation rather than rigidly resist out of fear and/or habit. And yes, in most regular situations we do have a choice about the circumstance we're in. But what I said before, about accompanying my child through an experience seeming the most helpful choice in grocery store situations, too, remains true for me. I don't advocate ignoring a child's needs, but it also seems to me that the solution is not total need management, either. I am having trouble seeing the articulation of a middle ground in this conversation, but a middle ground is just what seems to do *my* son the most good, even in non-medical situations. He responds better and with more engagement to gentle reflection of his feelings and of the situation, rather than solutions or avoidance of the circumstance. I've noticed this particularly since our latest spate of medical issues -- these days he seems to shoot down every problem solving attempt, searching instead for the expression of the unsolvable, relaxing only when we quietly witness the situation with him, noticing with patient interest just how everything seems to be for him. This goes for anything, from how his cheese chunks are too big to how scared he is of something medical. Problem-solving, changing the situation, seems to actually make it worse. What he needs is quiet, interested attention, and then he tends to engage his own resources at that point. Of course, not always. But if something is going to help, it's going to be interested, nonreactive attention instead of problem solving.

I don't find myself thinking that the mom in the bookstore didn't really need to buy books; that sort of doesn't matter to me. The fact is that she *was* buying books, and her child was tired, and they were both having a difficult time. This doesn't seem like an un-worthwhile situation to be in, nor one to be concerned about. It just seems challenging, and I'm sure they're both up to the challenge if they engage the right resources. I mean, this is life, right? (I don't mean that in a "tough" sort of way, but rather a "wow, look what's happening, let's see what happens next -- by the way, do you need to hold my hand?" sort of way.)

I'm feeling sort of off topic here, and having a bit of trouble capturing exactly what I want to say. I think we seem to all agree that the lesson to teach our kids is not that everything can be solved, but that we have the resources to deal with it whether it can be solved or not. I think our differences may lie in what we ask our kids to engage their resources about.

Does that feel accurate to you all?

P.S. Also, I want to assure folks that my son is doing fine. The surgery and hospitalization was over the holidays, and he is now home and recovering well, thankfully. Our lives are different, and involve more middle of the night medical issues, but we are doing fine. Thank you for your good thoughts.


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## Limabean1975 (Jan 4, 2008)

Yes, mbravebird. Well said.

I wonder what that mother in that bookstore would think if she knew that she and her child had inspired 10 pages of philisophizing?


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mbravebird* 
I don't find myself thinking that the mom in the bookstore didn't really need to buy books; that sort of doesn't matter to me. The fact is that she *was* buying books, and her child was tired, and they were both having a difficult time. This doesn't seem like an un-worthwhile situation to be in, nor one to be concerned about. It just seems challenging, and I'm sure they're both up to the challenge if they engage the right resources. I mean, this is life, right? (I don't mean that in a "tough" sort of way, but rather a "wow, look what's happening, let's see what happens next -- by the way, do you need to hold my hand?" sort of way.)

I'm feeling sort of off topic here, and having a bit of trouble capturing exactly what I want to say. I think we seem to all agree that the lesson to teach our kids is not that everything can be solved, but that we have the resources to deal with it whether it can be solved or not. I think our differences may lie in what we ask our kids to engage their resources about.

Does that feel accurate to you all?

P.S. Also, I want to assure folks that my son is doing fine. The surgery and hospitalization was over the holidays, and he is now home and recovering well, thankfully. Our lives are different, and involve more middle of the night medical issues, but we are doing fine. Thank you for your good thoughts.

Actually, of most of the posts on this thread, I found yours to be quite reasonable. I would rather not make the mistake of assuming things from my incomplete understanding of someone's situation other than what I saw in a bookstore.

Glad to know your son is doing fine now. Sending good wishes your way.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Limabean1975* 
Yes, mbravebird. Well said.

I wonder what that mother in that bookstore would think if she knew that she and her child had inspired 10 pages of philisophizing?

yeah, especially since the original intent of the thread was about the OP's own personal parenting journey, not really about the lady in the book store









mbravebird~glad your son is ok









Sledge~wise as usual

Mammal_mama..I agree, that is an amazing amount of choice









What a great and thought provoking thread


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mbravebird* 
I don't find myself thinking that the mom in the bookstore didn't really need to buy books; that sort of doesn't matter to me. The fact is that she *was* buying books, and her child was tired, and they were both having a difficult time. This doesn't seem like an un-worthwhile situation to be in, nor one to be concerned about. It just seems challenging, and I'm sure they're both up to the challenge if they engage the right resources. I mean, this is life, right? (I don't mean that in a "tough" sort of way, but rather a "wow, look what's happening, let's see what happens next -- by the way, do you need to hold my hand?" sort of way.)









I doubt that there are any of us who haven't found ourselves in a similar situation (I have found myself there a lot, over the years). And at that point, once you're in it, it really doesn't matter (in an immediate way) what we could have done to avoid it--because we didn't avoid it, and here it is, we're in this difficult moment in all its glory. And we need to get through it, however it is that we choose to get through it, in whatever ways help us get through it. And not only is that okay, but there's a whole lot of learning (for parent and child) and connection to be had in those moments. It certainly is not un-worthwhile by any means.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mbravebird* 
I think we seem to all agree that the lesson to teach our kids is not that everything can be solved, but that we have the resources to deal with it whether it can be solved or not. I think our differences may lie in what we ask our kids to engage their resources about.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mbravebird* 
He responds better and with more engagement to gentle reflection of his feelings and of the situation, rather than solutions or avoidance of the circumstance. I've noticed this particularly since our latest spate of medical issues -- these days he seems to shoot down every problem solving attempt, searching instead for the expression of the unsolvable, relaxing only when we quietly witness the situation with him, noticing with patient interest just how everything seems to be for him. This goes for anything, from how his cheese chunks are too big to how scared he is of something medical. Problem-solving, changing the situation, seems to actually make it worse. What he needs is quiet, interested attention, and then he tends to engage his own resources at that point. Of course, not always. But if something is going to help, it's going to be interested, nonreactive attention instead of problem solving.

You are such a wise mama!

You know, the way your son is, is the way I am, too, in the midst of a problem. I don't feel "helped" by some other person (even a dear loved one) coming in and "problem solving."

When people are willing to listen and empathize, rather than moving in to take over -- that shows their trust in us as people who have resources. We don't need someone else to figure everything out for us; we just need to know that we have their love and support as we get our bearings, and we need their strong hands to hold onto as we find our way.


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## tulips117 (Feb 23, 2005)

Wow! You guys rock!!


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## laoxinat (Sep 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mbravebird* 
Well, I have been feeling wrong all day about calling you lovely folks lunatics. Last night, in the midst of my reality clashing with more normal realities, it felt accurate, but after a few hours sleep I realized very clearly that calling anyone here a lunatic is completely inappropriate. I am feeling regret about my disrespectful language, because it did not communicate how much I respect and see the validity of all the articulate thinking everyone in this thread has been doing. I apologize.


Actually, I found myself nodding through much of your post. Having to deal with life threatening illness kind of forces you (generic you of course







) to cut to the chase. You just don't necessarily have the luxury of negotiating every.little.thing. "Honey, where would you like the epi pen stick" (as dc turns blue with anaphylaxis) just ain't always an option. And BIG GIANT kudos to you for finding as much consensuality and empowering your DS as you clearly do. Way to go mama







And I am so glad your LO is doing better








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