# Would you invade your child's privacy to make sure they are okay?



## Phoenix~Mama (Dec 24, 2007)

This was on the radio this morning and it got me fired up.







I was curious what some other Mother's thought...

I usually miss the original email in the morning that spawns the conversation, but it had something to do with "spying" or following up on your children to make sure they are not up to things they shouldn't be.

This Mother called in and said that as a parent you have to do whatever it takes to make sure your child is safe and she has broken into her daughter's diary several times to "check-up" on her. She even admitted her daughter gave her no reason to beleive she had any troubles going on or anything, she just felt as the Mother she had every right to snoop in her daughter's things to make sure she was okay.

This really angered me... maybe I'm being unrealistic because I do not have teens to deal with yet... but I plan on impressing an open communication and am hoping if my children are dealing with anything and need help, they know they can come to me... I do not agree with invading their privacy like this.

My Mother did that to me as a teen, and it's still a sore spot. She raided my room and found a box of condomns and I actually got grounded for it... Grounded for being reponsible... yeah I don't think that was the correct message to send.









So anyway... thoughts on this??


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

I would not read a diary. I can't imagine a circumstance in which I would. (maybe serious criminal activity or an attempted suicide.... which are both awful thoughts







)For me, words/thoughts are sacred, and having a diary that one can trust will _not_ be read is very important to personal well-being.

I would search a room, though, if I were concerned about drugs or sexual activity or minor criminal activity (shoplifting, maybe?). Storing stolen goods or drugs in your parents' house is not so much important for personal well-being.

I will be open with my children about this-- "Your room is your room, I'll knock before I come in... but it's still my house, and we don't keep *insert material you find objectionable* in my house."

This very much depends on age, too.


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## Mimi (Oct 8, 2008)

I would.
If I had a reason to believe that my daughter (or son) was not safe, yes, I would.
I wanted to kill myself when I was 13, had my mother not looked through my diary & confronted me, then I probably would have.
Yes, it's not a good thing, but *I would do whatever it takes to keep my children safe.* They might be angry with me at the time, but looking back they won't,
& I'd rather have an angry daughter than a dead daughter.

That being said,
I would NOT go through her room, read letters or anything, just to "check up on her" or "see what she's up to". I do hope to have a very good relationship with DD , & that she will come to talk to me about her problems.
But a depressed teenager, well, they often do very sad things.
I might be slightly more nervous, though, as I lost two friends through suicide, & I understand that many people here will strongly disagree with my opinion.


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## mommato5 (Feb 19, 2007)

If I felt there was a reason to go through their stuff, I would. I won't go through it just because I can. When they start getting into IM and myspace, I will make sure to have all info so I can check up on them. I value their online safety over their privacy.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

absolutely.


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## nummies (Jun 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaterPrimaePuellae* 
I would not read a diary. I can't imagine a circumstance in which I would. (maybe serious criminal activity or an attempted suicide.... which are both awful thoughts







)For me, words/thoughts are sacred, and having a diary that one can trust will _not_ be read is very important to personal well-being.

I would search a room, though, if I were concerned about drugs or sexual activity or minor criminal activity (shoplifting, maybe?). Storing stolen goods or drugs in your parents' house is not so much important for personal well-being.

I will be open with my children about this-- "Your room is your room, I'll knock before I come in... but it's still my house, and we don't keep *insert material you find objectionable* in my house."

This very much depends on age, too.

I agree with this. I would but only if I thought that she was in danger of hurting herself or someone else.

Just to check up on her? No way. For me to read her diary it would have to be a last resort type thing.


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## Mimi (Oct 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommato5* 
I value their online safety over their privacy.


oh my goodness, i had completely ignored the fact that they are going to use instant messengers & such!
That is such a scary thought.
I hope they won't be interested in that sort of thing..
(haha, what are the chances!)


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## 1xmom (Dec 30, 2003)

My dd is 8 and I would never invade her privacy, especially snoop and break into her diary. Right now we have a very close relationship and she is very open w/me. I kind of relish that b/c I know that may change, but right now I don't take advantage of it, and I appreciate her telling me things. I do know that she may not tell me right away, but when things bother her, she does eventually tell me. My mother was never that open w/me (and we still are not close), but she also never went thru my things.
If I thought she was in some sort of danger to herself or others, well to me, that is a different story.


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## Lit Chick (Aug 15, 2007)

My mom did. Same situation as the OP - she "cleaned" my room and found my condoms. She did not ground me, but we fought. She was upset that I hid part of my life from her. I think that scenario happened about 3 times.

I am a total doofus because while I knew she poked around my room, I never locked up my diaries. She read those too. I think maybe a part of me knew she would.... and boy, she must have _died_ reading some parts. She did not tell me she snooped until recently - I think I was pregnant! And I was _furious_, but I understood a little.

I think I will probably snoop, but be like my mom. She (with the exception of the condom incident) never let me know she snooped, but used what she found out to have certian talks. And she was making sure I was OK. I was very moody and dark, and probably scared her a bit, but I was being a dramatic teen. I was never in danger. I think reading my thoughts helped keep her from wigging out over my choice of music/dress/decor/boyfriends.

ETA - my mom and I have always been close, even through the teen angst and drama. She only kind of betrayed my trust, because while she did snoop, she also kept my secrets.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I would not read my child's journal except in some bizarre, rare, extreme circumstance, like they went missing, and I was desperate for clues to find them.

I am shocked that so many people would. I find it very disturbing.


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## mirlee (Jul 30, 2002)

I do not trust my mother to this day. She routinely read my stuff and threw out my stuff. There was no reason for this. The only place I could keep things I wanted was at my grandmother's. She and my dad also read all mail that came to me unless I got to it first. They didn't believe that privacy was an option.

I would NEVER do this to my child. If I suspected that they may harm themselves or someone else or were exhibiting strange behavior, I would talk to them first. Sometimes you just need a place to sort your thoughts.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JSMa* 
This was on the radio this morning and it got me fired up.







I was curious what some other Mother's thought...

I usually miss the original email in the morning that spawns the conversation, but it had something to do with "spying" or following up on your children to make sure they are not up to things they shouldn't be.

This Mother called in and said that as a parent you have to do whatever it takes to make sure your child is safe and she has broken into her daughter's diary several times to "check-up" on her. She even admitted her daughter gave her no reason to beleive she had any troubles going on or anything, she just felt as the Mother she had every right to snoop in her daughter's things to make sure she was okay.

This really angered me... maybe I'm being unrealistic because I do not have teens to deal with yet... but I plan on impressing an open communication and am hoping if my children are dealing with anything and need help, they know they can come to me... I do not agree with invading their privacy like this.

My Mother did that to me as a teen, and it's still a sore spot. She raided my room and found a box of condomns and I actually got grounded for it... Grounded for being reponsible... yeah I don't think that was the correct message to send.









So anyway... thoughts on this??

My mother did that to me, too, and yes it is still a sore spot. She also used to open my mail, etc. I would never do that to my kids unless I had very concrete reason to believe they were in immediate danger.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Never say never in parenting, I guess, but I don't think I would.

Both my husband and I have kept journals and we consider them really private; I would like to extend the same courtesy to my son.

I guess I feel like there are likely to be other signs of any serious trouble. Maybe that's overly optimistic, but I know that for me any hint of someone prying into my very personal space would just make me shut down even more.

herewearetogether, I can totally understand your viewpoint about it. I think it's a good reminder of what a critical role parents play.

For online communication with teens over 12 (ish), I feel the same way up until the point that it becomes real contact.

So I think I would focus my efforts on making sure my son understood those elements - not to give out personal information, and never to meet anyone from the 'net without informing us, rather than trying to monitor everything he did.

Under 12 (ish; depends on the child) I do think monitoring online communication is fine; it's like you have playdates with parents for a while and then move to playdates with just the 'host' parent, and then eventually the kids can meet at the park on their own. I see my role as being much more intrusive at the start and then gradually stepping back.

I do think that leaving kids space to make mistakes - hopefully not critical ones although there is some risk - is actually one of the ways one builds responsibility, ethics, and capability to meet life's challenges. So I don't see my goal as being to prevent a teenager from experiencing anything negative or to know everything. More to have my radar up.

I do see my role as being to step in when it gets really dangerous. But I don't think a diary is likely to be the only sign. But again I might change my opinion later.









I know I would search my son's room if I thought there was a drug problem. But I wouldn't for anything to do with sex; I'd actually rather find condoms than not.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JSMa* 
My Mother did that to me as a teen, and it's still a sore spot. She raided my room and found a box of condomns and I actually got grounded for it... Grounded for being reponsible... yeah I don't think that was the correct message to send.









My parents read something of mine when I was 17. It wasn't a diary, per se, it was a notebook that my best friend in high school and I would use to right back and forth to each other. There was definately some... stuff... I would never have wanted my parents to read! They found out I was having sex, drinking on the weekends and smoking (various things







).

They grounded me. For 4 months until I turned 18 and they couldn't do a darn thing about it. I basically was not allowed out of the house except to go to school- which mom and dad took me to and picked me up from.

What did it teach me? To start skipping school during those 4 months (to my credit though- I never skipped any actual classes, just study periods and lunch). I also started leaving the house at night after mom was asleep. And after that 4 months was up I went right back to where I was, with the same guy doing the same things. Looking back I know they were trying to protect me. They really went about it the wrong way. Less than a year after I turned 18 and was ungrounded I got pregnant with the same guy they were trying to keep me from seeing









But would I do the same thing? No way. The only chance of me doing that would be if I felt my child were in danger (suicidal, etc) and they were refusing to talk to me or other adults about it.


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## Phoenix~Mama (Dec 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StephandOwen* 
My parents read something of mine when I was 17. It wasn't a diary, per se, it was a notebook that my best friend in high school and I would use to right back and forth to each other. There was definately some... stuff... I would never have wanted my parents to read! They found out I was having sex, drinking on the weekends and smoking (various things







).

They grounded me. For 4 months until I turned 18 and they couldn't do a darn thing about it. I basically was not allowed out of the house except to go to school- which mom and dad took me to and picked me up from.

What did it teach me? To start skipping school during those 4 months (to my credit though- I never skipped any actual classes, just study periods and lunch). I also started leaving the house at night after mom was asleep. And after that 4 months was up I went right back to where I was, with the same guy doing the same things. Looking back I know they were trying to protect me. They really went about it the wrong way. Less than a year after I turned 18 and was ungrounded I got pregnant with the same guy they were trying to keep me from seeing









But would I do the same thing? No way. The only chance of me doing that would be if I felt my child were in danger (suicidal, etc) and they were refusing to talk to me or other adults about it.


Precisely!! All that did was teach me to hide things better and I started sneaking out a lot because I was constantly grounded... I moved out right when I turned 18 and got into some seriously bad relationships.

I don't regret my decisions because it all has built me to who I am... but I wish my parents would have been more communicative instead of invading my privacy and trying to dictate my life when I was 16-17 years old. I was being responsible. When I was drinking we never drove, we took friends keys already at parties. I took myself to Planned Parenthood as soon as I became sexually active and used protection.

It just really bothered me the way this woman spoke on the radio like she "owned" her child and could just do what she'd like with her daughters things.

Our children are their own people... We can guide, but I think totally betraying their trust is going to do way more harm than good... they are going to feel like they have no one to turn to when they DO need someone to talk to.


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## AutumnMama (Jan 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
My mother did that to me, too, and yes it is still a sore spot. She also used to open my mail, etc. I would never do that to my kids unless I had very concrete reason to believe they were in immediate danger.









:
I wouldn't have a problem if I thought there was danger involved (or illegal activity), but my Mom opened a letter I was sending to a boy I liked when I was 12 or so. He lived in CA so it's not like we could go and get into trouble or anything, but she opened it, read it, and didn't allow me to send it because I said that I liked him in the letter.
I think that's really overbearing, and honestly I don't know if she'd do it again, but obviously it affected me enough to remember 16 years later!


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## daniellebluetoo (Jul 11, 2008)

Granted, my son is only almost 7.
BUT, I pay the rent here, that IS NOT his room, THAT is MY room, I allow him to use it.

It is MY job to keep him safe and help him learn how to be a good man, a productive citizen, a good father, know the difference between right and wrong, and to love himself!

Children don't always talk to parents, even the most patient loving and openly communicating ones.

I WILL check up on him, I WILL check out his friends, I WILL make sure he is safe, and not doing anything illegal (underage sex or drugs)... The rest is pretty much up to him, I can only do so much, but what I DO have a say in, I WILL.

BUt thats just me......









It WILL be done in a productive way. Condoms found will result in a conversation about safe sex and responsibility. Drugs will result in immediate action. They will not be tolerated in my home, I will not have things like that put me and my family in danger.


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## momz3 (May 1, 2006)

Yes I would. If its for their own good and I feel something is not right that they are not telling me, yes. I love my children too much just to look the other way when there could be a serious problem.

Now, I would not randomly open mail, read diaries, etc "just because".


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## ewe+lamb (Jul 20, 2004)

when I was younger and lived in Italy, I met a lady who admitted to me that she constantly read her dd's diaries, followed her out constantly spied on her, she eventually lost her dd, and had no contact with her, such a sad story. As others have mentioned - I would only do something like that if any of my kids were in real danger, as for internet safety I recently received an email which pointed out what could happen if kids gave too much detail about themselves, I can send it on to anyone who would like it - just pm me.


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## angie7 (Apr 23, 2007)

I would not unless my child was acting "odd" and has given me many reasons to believe that they are up to something but just to do it to "check up" on them, absolutely not.


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## Kappa (Oct 15, 2007)

I guess there's that overlap between being nosy and keeping your child safe.
I think some of the online activity monitoring software invades kids' privacy. My husband was telling me that a coworker told him the software he has records keystrokes, to me that's too much! To me, that is nosy, why on earth do you need to know every word that your child types online? Blocking sites, knowing how to get to your kids' public webpages like myspace is basic good parenting and not an invasion. Knowing the contents of every IM, email, google search, etc. is overly restrictive. If my child wants to look up something, like the disease chlamydia online out of pure curiosity because they heard it on a radio announcement, they should be free to do so w/o having to talk to me about it, and without me worrying. I have mixed feelings about GPS trackers on cell phones for kids who are otherwise basically good kids. Something seems stifling about it. Disclaimer: my baby is only 8 mo so I don't know what I'm in for.

If there was no signs that anything was askew, I would not invade my child's privacy. If something was off, of course my first course of action would be to talk to my child about it, and if necessary siblings/friends to try to get information, if not specific info then simply an acknowledgement that everything is ok and my child can cope. If my child shut down, I would talk to them about going to a therapist since s/he felt that talking to me would not be possible.


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## DandeCobb (Jul 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *daniellebluetoo* 
Granted, my son is only almost 7.
BUT, I pay the rent here, that IS NOT his room, THAT is MY room, I allow him to use it.

It is MY job to keep him safe and help him learn how to be a good man, a productive citizen, a good father, know the difference between right and wrong, and to love himself!

Children don't always talk to parents, even the most patient loving and openly communicating ones.

I WILL check up on him, I WILL check out his friends, I WILL make sure he is safe, and not doing anything illegal (underage sex or drugs)... The rest is pretty much up to him, I can only do so much, but what I DO have a say in, I WILL.

BUt thats just me......









It WILL be done in a productive way. Condoms found will result in a conversation about safe sex and responsibility. Drugs will result in immediate action. They will not be tolerated in my home, I will not have things like that put me and my family in danger.

That sounds like me. I have a responsibility to my children to keep them safe. Now depending on what was found, I may never say anything to them. (like one example i think of, say I'm worried my DD is doing drugs with her long term boyfriend, so i search her room, find no evidence of drugs but do find BC pills and condoms, then i thank my stars I taught her well and keep my mouth shut)


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## zoshamosha (Apr 15, 2006)

No, I would never read a diary or go through my child's stuff. My mom did that to me and all it got her was some ammunition to shame me. If I feared my teen were having sex or doing drugs (I was as a teen







), then I would do my best to open the door of communication. I don't think going through a kid's stuff will stop them...on the contrary.

If I really feared my child were suicidal, I would get the child to a doctor quick.


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## rocketgirl96 (Jan 30, 2008)

I'd have to say that for me, the way I feel, is that "Heck, yeah!" I'd do whatever it takes to make sure my child was fine. And I know many of you would hope there would be other signs but oftentimes with teenagers, there just isn't. Especially in these times of cyber bullying and all things computer related. Even back when I was growing up, teenagers hide so much of their feelings inside. I come from a very close family - we all call each other at least a few times a week - yet, still my sister was going through a lot and NO ONE IN MY FAMILY KNEW! She was anorexic, bulemic, and tried to commit suicide. On the outside, she was happy, healthy, didn't look sick or act sick, had many friends, was quite popular in school and had healthy activities and outlets. Luckily, my parents found her and were able to save her but I keep thinking, if only I (or my parents) had read her diary, then maybe we could have helped her before she did something so extreme.

So, in my opinion, as long as you are living under my roof, there is no right to privacy. I intend on getting a computer program that will record key strokes when he's old enough to be on the computer and I'm all for room searches. He is my pride and joy and it is MY responsibility to ensure his safety and wellbeing and I will do everything I can towards that purpose.

For what it's worth - my DH and I also are very transparent with each other. He has my email password and vice versa.

Christine


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## Kappa (Oct 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rocketgirl96* 
So, in my opinion, as long as you are living under my roof, there is no right to privacy. I *intend on getting a computer program that will record key strokes when he's old enough to be on the computer* and I'm all for room searches. He is my pride and joy and it is MY responsibility to ensure his safety and wellbeing and I will do everything I can towards that purpose.

For what it's worth - my DH and I also are very transparent with each other. He has my email password and vice versa.

Christine

I know you want to keep your son safe from online negative social interaction, but please reconsider. My opinion is that this is the equivalent of listening on another line while your child is talking on the phone. People communicate online so casually these days, that it is really a form of eavesdropping. Anything that is posted in the public sphere is, you know, public, but having private space online too I think is important.

Added: You sound like a loving Momma and I just added these thoughts because this is my opinion.


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## Phoenix~Mama (Dec 24, 2007)

Room searches? Like just random room searches just because??

*shudders*

I know you mean well... but geez... do you think your child will ever feel comfortable in their own space knowing you will just waltz in whenever and search them?? I can't even think of how degrading and demoralizing that is.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I would never invade my child's privacy unless I had a real reason to be concerned for the child's safety (say, search a room for drugs if I had other reasons for suspecting drug use, and gentler, more respectful approaches weren't working.)

Now, I do monitor my kids' internet and email usage, but I've always been upfront about that. There's no sneaking around "spying on" my kids- they KNOW that I reserve the right to read the occasional email (often over their shoulders), pop into their online chats, etc. 90% of the time they're on the computer I'm in the room anyway- either on the other computer next to them or doing other stuff in the living room.

I don't have a problem with that "record every keystroke" program (though I don't personally have it or desire that for my family) as long as the child is fully aware of its existence. Then the child can choose to *not* share certain things online if they don't want mom or dad to find out.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

My parents (mom and step dad) MAJORLY invaded my privacy. I'm still mad about it. They recorded all my phone conversations. They copied letters that I sent to my best friend and that she sent me. My brother was snooping in THEIR room once (







) and found a HUGE folder full of letters that they'd copied.
Strangly, I have been paranoid about being watched (especially in the bathroom) since before I knew this was happening. I found out in the last couple years that they did have cameras in the bathroom, to check on my brother if he was doing drugs or whatever.

For the most part, I wasn't doing anything wrong. I went on bc before I started having sex, and I wasn't into drugs or drinking or anything.

Now, otoh, my brother WAS causing trouble, and made trouble for himself and the family. He sold drugs from the house, stole stuff, and on and on.

I think I would keep it low key, and only snoop if I had a reason to believe that dc's safety was at risk. I wouldn't copy things, or record phone calls. I maybe could see looking around their room or something, but only if I had a good reason to do so.

I agree with Ruthla- if I were to keep an eye on, say, computer usage, I'd let dc know that it was a possibility beforehand.


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## kewb (May 13, 2005)

As a common occurence-no. If I truly suspected something was wrong-absolutely.


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## NettleTea (Aug 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DevaMajka* 
Strangly, I have been paranoid about being watched (especially in the bathroom) since before I knew this was happening. I found out in the last couple years that they did have cameras in the bathroom, to check on my brother if he was doing drugs or whatever.


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## I-AM-Mother (Aug 6, 2008)

I sure would...I sure do (My daughter is 12 years old) Don't care.


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## Masel (Apr 14, 2008)

I think about this and considering she's only 3 by the the time my DD is writing anything interesting it will be mega encoded on a device I don't know how to operate.

I think information is neutral and it all depends on what one does with it. Automatically grounding or shaming based on snooped information is wrong. The PP who's parent used the information found to open a dialog -that sounds appropriate. It often sounds like the kids are not taking much care in hiding their secrets which leads me to think that in some cases they want it to be found.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

I never thought I would but as kids get older they get more private and open communication doesn't always cut it. I have read my dd's diary a couple of times when there was evidence that she was in danger and it was stuff she didn't want to talk to anyone about. She knows and has forgiven me even if she didn't like it. She did not get in trouble for anything in the diary, nor did I throw it in her face, as I don't feel I have the right to use the information for that. She is online a lot and I do have all her passwords but I rarely check anything. That was the deal we made when I let her have IM and an over 18 youtube account.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Grylliade* 









Yeah, I was more than a little upset when I found that out. It's only recently that I can go in the bathroom and feel that I *do* have my privacy.
I'm feeling kinda riled up just thinking about it...


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## H & J's Mom (Jun 1, 2008)

I truly hope there is never a need. If I suspected a dangerous issue I think I would do what was necessary at the time but other than that - No Way.

I think to snoop and sneak around would only break the trust with my kids that I've worked very hard to establish.

There are things that kids don't want to talk to parents about and they have the right to their own private and personal thoughts. Unless there is a serious concern, I just could not justify invading someone's thoughts and privacy like that.

I can't agree with the my house and the no right to privacy arguments. I might make the house payments but it is our family's home &#8230; everyone should feel secure and comfortable in their own home.


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## Lisa85 (May 22, 2006)

I will always watch what my kids are doing online - no if's and's or but's about it. However, unless I have a valid concern regarding my dc's health or safety, their diary is their's to do what they want with it. FWIW, drinking, unsafe sex, and drugs all fall into the category of safety.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommato5* 
If I felt there was a reason to go through their stuff, I would. I won't go through it just because I can. When they start getting into IM and myspace, I will make sure to have all info so I can check up on them. I value their online safety over their privacy.









:


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rocketgirl96* 
I'd have to say that for me, the way I feel, is that "Heck, yeah!" I'd do whatever it takes to make sure my child was fine. And I know many of you would hope there would be other signs but oftentimes with teenagers, there just isn't. Especially in these times of cyber bullying and all things computer related. Even back when I was growing up, teenagers hide so much of their feelings inside. I come from a very close family - we all call each other at least a few times a week - yet, still my sister was going through a lot and NO ONE IN MY FAMILY KNEW! She was anorexic, bulemic, and tried to commit suicide. On the outside, she was happy, healthy, didn't look sick or act sick, had many friends, was quite popular in school and had healthy activities and outlets. Luckily, my parents found her and were able to save her but I keep thinking, if only I (or my parents) had read her diary, then maybe we could have helped her before she did something so extreme.

So, in my opinion, as long as you are living under my roof, there is no right to privacy. I intend on getting a computer program that will record key strokes when he's old enough to be on the computer and I'm all for room searches. He is my pride and joy and it is MY responsibility to ensure his safety and wellbeing and I will do everything I can towards that purpose.

For what it's worth - my DH and I also are very transparent with each other. He has my email password and vice versa.

Christine

Does your DH record your keystrokes too?

My kids are a teen and a preteen now. I can only imagine how much damage it would do to our relationship to demean them like that.


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## amydidit (Jan 21, 2005)

Yep, and I don't feel bad about it at all.

When my DD1 was younger I thought we'd have this great relationship, all open communication, etc and I wouldn't need to do anything like that. Then she started growing up. Even though I try to make sure she knows she can talk to me about anything at all, she's grown distant and hides things from me.

I do not trust her. Right now that's the bottom line. I don't trust her friends, the music she (wants to) listens to, etc. I can fully see her getting involved in drugs, drinking, and sex, even though she's only 12. I won't tolerate those things in my house. Not a chance of it.

There's another complication involved as well. 2 years ago my mother tried to kidnap my DD1. My mother was also very clear on that she thinks I'm a horrible parent, and horrible person in general. She tries to stay in contact with DD. So I monitor all emails, IM's, snail mail, etc.

DD is aware that until she is an adult everything she does and has is subject to inspection. She knows I go in her room and read anything I find. She knows I have her email password. She knows I read all mail before it's passed along. She knows I check phone logs to ensure only calls have been made and received from approved numbers.

When I was a kid and teenager I was suicidal, drank, engaged in risky sexual activities, etc. I WISH like crazy that my mom had cared enough to check up on me and found me the help I wasn't about to look for on my own.









Then again, I don't see this as *invading privacy* since as a child I think the most privacy you should have is getting dressed, bathing, and using the bathroom. Period.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I don't necessarily have a problem with snooping for a tween or teen (because of what I believe about their social and emotional development), but I *do* have a problem with _what_ is done with any info gleaned thereafter, if it is used in a harsh, shaming way to control a kid. I could see myself looking through my kids' stuff if they were starting to show signs of trouble...but I wouldn't use that information to shame or punish them - I'd use it to help them and keep them safe.

All of our computers are in public house spaces, so there is no expectation of privacy, and that will remain as the kids get older and start using the computers more. I see a personal journal as different than communications with other people, especially online communications where people may not be who they say they are. Journals and phone conversations with IRL friends that I know, I'd not monitor (again, unless I was worried about imminent harm), but online chats, and web pages, etc? Totally fair game in my eye to be monitored and not expect privacy, because there are so many variables and so many ways that young people can be deceived by people with bad intentions. DH and I are pretty laid back, open people, and our basic relationship motto is, "if you wouldn't do it with me standing right there next to you, you probably shouldn't do it behind my back.' We'll likely use a similar kind of thing with the kids, obviously tailored for their ages and situations.

I guess I lean towards the 'their safety is more important than their privacy' side, BUT with some big caveats (like not punishing or shaming, and not searching just because I could. I would have to be seeing some personality changes and troubling behaviors before I would snoop - before I got to that point I would be havign lots of conversations with them about difficult topics in general so they would know they could come to me...).

For those who were snooped on, and resent it: Did your parents use the information they got in a punitive, shaming, etc. manner? Would it have been "better" to you if they hadn't brought it out that way, but instead had conversations with you about being safe, etc.? I wonder if a larger part of the problem was the way they handled it, not just that they did it at all. Also, did they talk with you beforehand about the fact that some things, for your safety, needed to be open? Or was it all in a dictatorial sort of "MY HOUSE MY RULES" type of dynamic? I'm interested to know your thoughts.


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## grniys (Aug 22, 2006)

Yes, absolutely. If I have any reason to be concerned about my child's well being I'm going to do everything I can to find out what's going on.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

When my brother was 12, my mom could tell that he and his friend were up to something. She listened in on a phone conversation and found out that when they supposed to be out delivering newspapers (this was back in the day when KIDS had newspaper routes), he and his friend were stealing the friend's mom's car keys and DRIVING around. At 12.

When my brother was in high school, he was getting a lot of 'odd' phone calls. My mom listened in and found out that he'd lost about $100 to some boys playing poker during the lunch hour and they were threatening him. In addition to making my brother get a job to pay off his debt, they talked a lot about the difference between friends and people who take advantage of you. (It's been a lifelong issue for my brother.)

Did they do this on a regular basis? No. They only did this when they had real reason to be concerned.

I think I will follow a similar path when my kids are older. I wouldn't ever read a diary or snoop in their room unless I had some reason to believe there was something wrong. But I won't say that I wouldn't _ever_ do it, because I don't know. Ds is a major introvert who doesn't share his thoughts/feelings easily.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kappa* 
I guess there's that overlap between being nosy and keeping your child safe.
I think some of the online activity monitoring software invades kids' privacy. My husband was telling me that a coworker told him the software he has records keystrokes, to me that's too much! To me, that is nosy, why on earth do you need to know every word that your child types online?

The reason is that there is no "record" of IM chats and things like this, so the only way you check up on what your child is IMing about is to record the keystrokes.

I might use such software if my kids were very into IM and I was uncertain about who they were IMing with. (They are never going to have computers in their bedrooms, but even with the computers in public places, it's impossible to know what they are doing at all times.)

But I will let them know that I am monitoring. Then they can choose or not choose to write things.


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## amydidit (Jan 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
The reason is that there is no "record" of IM chats and things like this, so the only way you check up on what your child is IMing about is to record the keystrokes.

I might use such software if my kids were very into IM and I was uncertain about who they were IMing with. (They are never going to have computers in their bedrooms, but even with the computers in public places, it's impossible to know what they are doing at all times.)

But I will let them know that I am monitoring. Then they can choose or not choose to write things.


I know on Gmail IM and Yahoo you can set it to keep a log of IM chats. I don't know about other IM clients, but I would imagine it would be the same.


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## Scribe (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amydidit* 
Then again, I don't see this as *invading privacy* since as a child I think the most privacy you should have is getting dressed, bathing, and using the bathroom. Period.

How on earth does this fit into seeing a child as a full and complete human being, as AP would suggest? I'm horrified by this.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 

For those who were snooped on, and resent it: Did your parents use the information they got in a punitive, shaming, etc. manner? Would it have been "better" to you if they hadn't brought it out that way, but instead had conversations with you about being safe, etc.? I wonder if a larger part of the problem was the way they handled it, not just that they did it at all. Also, did they talk with you beforehand about the fact that some things, for your safety, needed to be open? Or was it all in a dictatorial sort of "MY HOUSE MY RULES" type of dynamic? I'm interested to know your thoughts.

No, my parents did not use the information in a punitive or shaming way. The phone call recording came out when a foreign exhange student that was staying with us had a questionable conversation with one of my friends on the phone. We weren't allowed to go visit the friend, but THAT part wasn't done in a shaming punitive way, iirc. The fact that they were recording my phone calls was a HUGE fight. I was so mad, and my mom said that if I wanted I could smash the phone recording thing. I did. (I don't know if it was because she felt bad, or because they had another one and wanted to throw me off the scent).
With the letters they copied, I NEVER heard anything about it. Until my brother found them. That was at least a year after I'd stopped writing letters. My parents never said anything about them, at any time. And if they ever took action from the info they found in the letters, they never said it in a way that I could connect it at all.

My parents did sort of have a "my house my rules" frame of mind. They (mind you, this is my mom and my step dad) said more than a few times that until we are adults, we were legally their property (or something like that).
But otoh, my mom stopped telling me what to do by the time I was 16yo. And even before that, I think she knew that a lot of things just weren't going to be worth the battle for her. (I was a head strong teen, with a strong sense of social injustice)

I do think that the birth control talk might have been brought up by my mom because of her snooping. I'm not really mad at her about that. (That would have been at the very beginning of the snooping, so I doubt it was phone calls recorded, letters copied, etc).
I think it comes down to this- I'd be more ok with it if it was your basic listening in on phone conversations (not recording them), and looking through letters (not copying them), and if I KNEW that there were never any cameras in my bedroom (I have no idea) or the bathroom (which there were). I mean, I can think that, but I don't know for sure. I'm sure I would have felt that my privacy was invaded either way, but I *think* I would understand my mom's perspective too.

I think it caused a lot of trust and privacy issues for me that shouldn't be there.

eta- I don't think my parents were wrong for going into my brother's room and finding the pot plants that he was growing (they strongly suspected to find drug related stuff). And that's not because it didn't happen to me that I don't feel that strongly. That seems reasonable, imo.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

*****shudder*****

some of the posts here have really triggered me. but i choose not to go into it.

no i never would (yeah never say never














. not unless she was missing.

but then i have a 6 year old.

and so i am preparing for it now.

i have surrounded myself with my friends whom i trust and my dd knows i trust them too. so she has some place to go if she needed guidance and didnt want to talk with me. and those friends have the right to tell me when i am messing up myself. and they are both men and women. and even now they have helped me and guided me. some i have ignored. some have made me change.

and i am working on my parenting too and working on respecting her space. she already has little notes she doesnt want me to read and has one secret from me that i dont make her tell me. and yet she knows she doesnt have to tell me everything. but if she ever needed a shoulder to cry on i would always be there.

i go over basic age appropriate safety stuff with my dd as she grows old. and so when and if she starts on drugs and sex she would know about them. and how to be responsible. beyond that i would not go check her room to see if she WAS doing it. doing it would be her decision - not mine.

i do not buy into the my house thing or age thing either. she can live in my house as long as she wants. 16 or 20.

i think we should also look at what we each call 'safety' as. there is a difference between knowing and safety. for instance i dont consider my dd doing drugs or sex a safety issue. but how responsibly she does it and how responsibly she lives her life would be more my concern.

and the house we live in - it is our house. not hers or mine. even now we both have our say about our lives. there are v. v. v. rare times i put my foot down. and those were physical safety issues.

i have learnt she learns much more from life experience than by me saying you cant do it. i always, always say a yes and add but i think .... (and give reasons why i wouldnt do it). and then i tell her if you feel called to do it, go do it and i will be here when you cry or get hurt.

i have been doing this since she was a baby. and she has learnt to trust my judgement and she herself chooses to say no. so i dont see any reason why i would have to snoop ever.

as she grows older i will move with technology and be there to guide her.


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## nolonger (Jan 18, 2006)

i read my then-sixteen-year-old dd's diary after she came home from living with my mother because i was concerned about her eating disorder. i felt that it was a safety issue since she had threatened suicide if I had NOT gotten her Greyhound ticket ASAP and ds1 had been concerned that the ED was more serious than it actually was. If he had been right, I would have needed to sell securities and/or apply for government assistance to pay for treatment that might have been necessary to SAVE HER LIFE.

Yes, I saw a lot of things that I wish I hadn't and she found out I "spied" and was very upset with me, but I think I was justified because of my concern for her HEALTH AND SAFETY.

Yes, i have tried to improve her opinion of me by my actions, but I have never punished her for writing (and feeling) some pretty hurtful things about me.

I also feel that I am justified in cleaning the room that she and her boyfriend occupied together for over a year and then moved out of abruptly about a month ago. My name is on the lease, not theirs, so I am the one responsible for the condition of the property.


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## amydidit (Jan 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *avengingophelia* 
How on earth does this fit into seeing a child as a full and complete human being, as AP would suggest? I'm horrified by this.

Just because a child is a full and complete human doesn't mean they have the maturity, wisdom, knowledge they need to lead a safe life. I wouldn't send a child out into the world to live by herself for a reason. Children NEED guidance and a parent to help them grow up into an adult who IS prepared for the real world. I don't believe a parent can do the best possible job of that without ALL the info.

I do it BECAUSE I love my children. I do it because I know what harm can come of a parent who looks away and doesn't KNOW what their child is doing. I will do everything in my power to ensure my children stay safe so they CAN grow up into adults. That is my role as a parent, and one I take very seriously.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Yes, and I don't apologize for it.

Dsd has been man obsessed for as long as I have known her, and it icks me out. It's not normal for a 6 year old to have crushes on men in their 40s, and I have already had to remove her from situations that were just plain creepy where she thought some guy was just _being nice_ while I got a totally different vibe.

This week she sent our address to a perfect stranger via email! I preview all of her emails, I stepped away to stir something on the stove....she hits send, and it's done.







:

He!! yes I will invade her privacy, and ds's too, and I will hover over them when they're on the computer. Until I can trust their judgment, or they're old enough to fend for themselves, _it's my job_ to protect them.


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## Shonahsmom (Mar 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amydidit* 
Just because a child is a full and complete human doesn't mean they have the maturity, wisdom, knowledge they need to lead a safe life. I wouldn't send a child out into the world to live by herself for a reason. Children NEED guidance and a parent to help them grow up into an adult who IS prepared for the real world. I don't believe a parent can do the best possible job of that without ALL the info.

I do it BECAUSE I love my children. I do it because I know what harm can come of a parent who looks away and doesn't KNOW what their child is doing. I will do everything in my power to ensure my children stay safe so they CAN grow up into adults. That is my role as a parent, and one I take very seriously.

Isn't there some kind of middle ground between the only privacy you have is when you bathe, change and piss and looking the other way completely?

If you already feel that she is off course and this is how you are responding she will only become better and better at hiding things the older she gets. She will have a cell phone you know nothing about. She will create email accounts and myspace accounts that you know nothing about. You won't even know her friends' names. She will sneak out in the middle of the night. She will cut school. She will do anything she can to feel that she has some sense of autonomy, control and privacy, which the development thereof is a vital part of adolescents and becoming an adult. Being possibly troubled but then being this mistrusted and this subject to an absolute lack of any privacy, autonomy and general faith in her as a person will backfire.

How are kids supposed to grow up to become responsible, self-reliant human beings if they are not allowed to make a single risky choice for themselves, a single mistake, or a single choice that goes against their parents' values?


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Exactly. That is so disturbing and unhealthy and hindering development.


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## Shonahsmom (Mar 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *daniellebluetoo* 
Granted, my son is only almost 7.
BUT, I pay the rent here, that IS NOT his room, THAT is MY room, I allow him to use it.


So, he's basically a guest. A guest with no privacy. That's rough.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

My dd is 8.
We have parental controls on our computer- dd knows it and we review the activity report together. I think monitoring every keystroke is too invasive.
Dd isn't allowed to IM or e-mail anyone but family at this point. She doesn't have her own account so I do see what she has written. She usually wants to show it to me. When she is older we'll probably let her have her own account.

I don't think I would search dd's room, read a diary, open her mail, spy on phone calls or e-mails because she is a certain age.
If I had cause to think she was doing something that could endanger her life then maybe I'd snoop a bit more. I don't know. We aren't there yet.

I wasn't raised in a snooping household.


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## Kappa (Oct 15, 2007)

This thread reminds me that I must STRIVE to not become a "Toxic Parent."


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## Scribe (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shonahsmom* 
So, he's basically a guest. A guest with no privacy. That's rough.

No kidding. I can't imagine being treated like that by my family. How could that engender anything but animosity and further distrust?


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

You know, I can understand parents snooping when they think something is wrong even if I disagree, but this whole belief that children don't deserve privacy or that their room isn't their room, they just use it is so wrong and disrespectful. This is not going to foster an open relationship. It is going to foster hiding, deceit, and more destructive behaviours.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kappa* 
This thread reminds me that I must STRIVE to not become a "Toxic Parent."

I have toxic parents.

I walk a fine line with my dsd every day. She has attachment issues and has a problem with boundaries, and I question every move I make, but I also know she is at risk for molestation because of her attachment issues. Handing out our address and having crushes on men my age scares the [email protected] out of me and her father, and her therapist totally backs me up on the protective measures I've taken. So I certainly hope I'm not the one you're referring to as toxic. I know what it's like to have controlling parents who breathe down your neck without cause.







:


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## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

I don't think I'd read my child's diary, that's too personal, and I certainly wouldn't invade their privacy for no apparent reason, I want my children to trust me! And I hope I'll be able to trust them. BUT if I had a strong suspicion that they were involved in detrimental behavior, I would certainly start following up closely with them, ie: call to make sure they are where they say they are, insist on meeting their new friends/talking to parents, etc. It would be a safety or health concern, thoughg, not to catch them "doing something bad". And of course I would try approaching the subject with them first, in as many ways as possible.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DevaMajka* 
I think it comes down to this- I'd be more ok with it if it was your basic listening in on phone conversations (not recording them), and looking through letters (not copying them), and if I KNEW that there were never any cameras in my bedroom (I have no idea) or the bathroom (which there were). I mean, I can think that, but I don't know for sure. I'm sure I would have felt that my privacy was invaded either way, but I *think* I would understand my mom's perspective too.

I think the recording, copying, and cameras are SO creepy and wrong, I'm so sorry you had to live that. And I find it interesting (and perhaps a bit reassuring since it's the way I feel like I'll parent a tween/teen) that you would have probably been more OK if it wasn't SO invasive.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amydidit* 
Just because a child is a full and complete human doesn't mean they have the maturity, wisdom, knowledge they need to lead a safe life. I wouldn't send a child out into the world to live by herself for a reason.

ITA with this, and it is why I don't have a problem monitoring IM/email/web pages/etc. where people can be other than what they are presenting themselves as.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shonahsmom* 
Isn't there some kind of middle ground between the only privacy you have is when you bathe, change and piss and looking the other way completely?

I hope there is, and I hope to find it - I hope that letting our kids know that we're concerned for their safety, that things are not always as they seem in our increasingly technologic, superficial, peer-driven world, and that we will maintain a certain amount of transparency during the tween/teen years is going to be a good middle ground for us. I have no interest in micromanaging my kids' lives, but I also have no intention of losing them or allowing them to put themselves in dangerous situations just to let them have privacy and be autonomous.


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## ellemnop (May 10, 2008)

I'm so torn on this...

The question was phrased that if you felt that your child was in danger, would you invade their privacy. I want to say that I am almost certain that I would if I felt that their behaviours warranted it.

Other than that, I'm not sure. I certainly would never belittle, shame or control my children based on something that I found in their room intentionally or not.

Take care,
El


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## grniys (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frontierpsych* 
I don't think I'd read my child's diary, that's too personal, and I certainly wouldn't invade their privacy for no apparent reason, I want my children to trust me! And I hope I'll be able to trust them. BUT if I had a strong suspicion that they were involved in detrimental behavior, I would certainly start following up closely with them, ie: *call to make sure they are where they say they are, insist on meeting their new friends/talking to parents, etc.* It would be a safety or health concern, thoughg, not to catch them "doing something bad". And of course I would try approaching the subject with them first, in as many ways as possible.

Wow, I intend to do all that (the bolded part) even if my child shows no signs of anything dangerous or disturbing. I intend to know where my kid is/ what they are doing/ who they're with and who their friends are just so I know what's going on in their life. To me, that's completely different from snooping. I plan to follow up on them closely even if they don't show me I need to... that way I can (hopefully) catch problems before they get out of hand.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grniys* 
Wow, I intend to do all that (the bolded part) even if my child shows no signs of anything dangerous or disturbing. I intend to know where my kid is/ what they are doing/ who they're with and who their friends are just so I know what's going on in their life. To me, that's completely different from snooping. I plan to follow up on them closely even if they don't show me I need to... that way I can (hopefully) catch problems before they get out of hand.









Yeah, me too - then again, this is part of my relationship with DH, too - call when we're going places, know each others' friends, let each other know if plans change, etc. To me, it's just common courtesy.

I will definitely know my kids' friends families when they start going to their houses alone, etc. etc. Will expect to know where they're going, when they expect to be home, etc. But I would do the same myself, so I can't see expecting less from them.


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## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grniys* 
Wow, I intend to do all that (the bolded part) even if my child shows no signs of anything dangerous or disturbing. I intend to know where my kid is/ what they are doing/ who they're with and who their friends are just so I know what's going on in their life. To me, that's completely different from snooping. I plan to follow up on them closely even if they don't show me I need to... that way I can (hopefully) catch problems before they get out of hand.









Well, yes, I plan to know who they are with and what they are doing, but I'm talking about digging deeper than just that, like asking friend's parents to keep an eye out for X behavior if I suspected it, or possibly not allowing them at a friend's house if I thought that parent was allowing some behavior that I had told them I was not okay with. I didn't mean to say that I would not check up on my kids at all!


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

I am torn on this. I guess I have principles that say no, but reality may make me do something that is against my principles.

I have told my kids that there are no secret passwords on the computers, except mine and dh's. And they understand that we have secret ones because of security of financial info etc, not because we are hiding things from them.

I was just reading a book on marketing to tweens, and read how marketers routinely create tween personalities on the internet to get crazes going on their products. That is not illegal,but imo immoral, and it is happening all the time. These people can persuade tweens and teens to buy their products through this deception. There are many others who will try to win our children for far more sinister reasons.

I assume that as my kids grow they will want myspace accounts etc. At the moment we do not do facebook, myspace or any of those social sites, and we've told the kids that we don't do them. I am not sure that we can maintain that as they get older. So, my feeling right now is that when we give into that sort of computer use, we will tell the kids that we will be monitoring it. I can't imagine not monitoring, but I also cannot imagine snooping. So at the moment my plan is to watch over them, but to have them know that we are doing so, and why. At least until I am convinced that they understand the safety issues.

As for alcohol - I'm European, so don't get the panic that hits many Americans if their kids have a drink. If the kid was back home, it would be perfectly legal, and I'd prefer my kids learned to drink responsibly at a young age than have it forbidden so that they have to do it in secret, or save it until 21 then go nuts. Sex - I'd hope that I'd instilled some sense into them so that when they have sex, they do so responsibly and safely. Drugs - that worries me more.

Ack, I'm getting myself all concerned over this now, and my oldest is only just 8. I haven't even figured out the 8 year old stuff yet.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

wow. you know the saying if you go looking for trouble you're going to find it? searching your kids rooms, recording conversations, reading diaries etc. for no reason other then it is your right to do it... so that you can protect them just incase is a great way to make sure you find something.

Why would a child follow your rules, tell you the truth, ask your permission etc let alone actually talk to you about their life and their feelings when you have already decided you don't trust them? they have nothing to lose by completely disregarding everything you say. it doesnt get any worse then living with people who don't trust you at all... for literally no reason other then possibly your age.

You have also successfully destroyed all the trust they had in you. not b/c of what your doing but b/c of why you are doing it. all your kids will be thinking is 'i didn't do anything to make you not trust me, you don't even know me.' Its not the actions its the entitled attitude behind it. how incredibly dishonest and suspicious of you.

if i felt something was off with my kid i would search his room and his car. i would keep an eye on the phone bill and his internet (though not key strokes unless i had a damn good reason to do so) my parents searched my room... they had a reason to.. i was doing dumb stuff. but they knew something was up with me.. they knew something wasn't right b/c they knew me. It wasn't like we had the worlds most open honest relationship before this.. i was always a private person and only shared things occasionally. they knew something was up b/c they could tell i wasn't quite the same, was intentionally keeping things from them etc. and they didn't trust my best friend as far as they could throw her with an anvil strapped to her back.. with good reason she was not a good influence at all.

they never used anything they found to get me in trouble.. i never even knew about it till later. except when they found pot they did tell me they found it but that was it.. we talked about it a little and i didn't go to school the next day (they knew this.. it was their idea) b/c it had been a long night. Knowing my parents had found the pot was enough to make an impression. my parents had always trusted me before and knowing that i gave them a reason not to was really hard on me. if they had always searched and never trusted me i wouldn't have given a crap.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Only if my child were in danger. As in: I suspected serious drug use or worse.

I think diaries are deeply personal and for that reason, I didn't keep one as a teen.

I _did_ write a "letter" venting my (much deserved) anger at my mother (I NEVER would have given it to her) and I had kept it shoved in a workbook of mine.

Well, Mom claims that the cat knocked it off of my nightstand in MY ROOM as she just happened to be walking by and it had spread out on the floor, so she couldn't help reading it. Yeah, I know, that's weak.









She left an "I am so hurt that you wrote that about me, how could you..." letter on my bed.

It's still a sore spot for me. Everyone needs privacy, including teenagers.

Trin.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty* 
Only if my child were in danger. As in: I suspected serious drug use or worse.

I think diaries are deeply personal and for that reason, I didn't keep one as a teen.

I _did_ write a "letter" venting my (much deserved) anger at my mother (I NEVER would have given it to her) and I had kept it shoved in a workbook of mine.

Well, Mom claims that the cat knocked it off of my nightstand in MY ROOM as she just happened to be walking by and it had spread out on the floor, so she couldn't help reading it. Yeah, I know, that's weak.









She left an "I am so hurt that you wrote that about me, how could you..." letter on my bed.

It's still a sore spot for me. Everyone needs privacy, including teenagers.

Trin.

I really really wish I had written something about how offensive my mother's prying was, and left it somewhere for her to find when snooping. It would have server her right.

She was still doing things like poking in my handbag when I was in my 20s and had already left home.

There is a reason that I live on a different continent than she does.


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## grniys (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frontierpsych* 
Well, yes, I plan to know who they are with and what they are doing, but I'm talking about digging deeper than just that, like asking friend's parents to keep an eye out for X behavior if I suspected it, or possibly not allowing them at a friend's house if I thought that parent was allowing some behavior that I had told them I was not okay with. I didn't mean to say that I would not check up on my kids at all!









Ooooh! I'm sorry I read it wrong.







I was just thinking "man, I must be the strictest parent on MDC." LOL! Sorry about the confusion.


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## scrappingmom (Sep 3, 2005)

I always thought I would NOT do such a thing, but then there became teens in the house.... i would do random "spot checks" into myspace, IM, E-mail even though basicly myspace is where everything happens... in doing this I learned an awdul lot about DD(14) she had pierced her lip and put it in only at school(we had told her she could if she wanted to get it done we just wanted it done well, no clue why the sneaking) That she was inviting a boy from down the road up when we would run to the store or other kids to a practice or whatever, this kid has a BAAADDDD reputation in the area and many implications of other things. She acted "normal" we never suspected any real issues, she talked reasonably openly with us, sometimes we couldnt stop her!








Long story short she is now in a mental hospital because she went on a killing spree of our animals, drugged her 2yr old sister, pushed her into a hot stove and shook our 1 yr old(thakfully she is fine) She has been on suicide watch, has a worker at her side all the time and regularly has to be put in restraints to keep her from injuring herself or others.....

All that basicly is to say, build good lines of communication but dont turn a blind eye... after the run awy happens or the suicide is usually FAR to late!

We have now let kids know, that we respect them and their privacy but MUSt ahve ALL internet information, ALL friends phone numbers, if they are traveling to a friends house, biking or otherwise they have to call when arriving and i talk to a parent. none of my kids keep a diary/journal but i believe i would, if i found info elsewere or strongly suspect a prob ut i wouldnt use it directly or confrontationally against them but as thers have said, a means of opening a round about conversation. I dont think i'd go on an all out search mission unless i had reason to suspect something major BUT as I"ve already learned... there aren't necessarily any obvious signs ahead of time.









There are many TOUGH issues of parentling and I belive(with 10 kids between 16 1/2 and 1 + due in may w #11) this MAY be one of the most difficult to know which side of a very touchy line you are standing on.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grniys* 
Ooooh! I'm sorry I read it wrong.







I was just thinking "man, I must be the strictest parent on MDC." LOL! Sorry about the confusion.

I doubt if you're the strictest parent here. We've had to make a lot of rules I'm not happy about, but they're necessary. Sometimes you have to adapt to a child's needs, and they don't always line up with the parenting style you envisioned.









We've seen progress, so I guess it _works,_ but I sure miss my more permissive, relaxed parenting days.


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## SAHDS (Mar 28, 2008)

This thread is an eye-opener, to say the very least.

I just hope and pray that the trust (and respect) we've been building with our children never put us into a situation where we would ever *need* to go through their things and invade their privacy.

Pro-active, instead of reactive, I suppose? Of course, my LOs are 9 and 8 (tomorrow







), so who knows? Never say never.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bigeyes* 
I doubt if you're the strictest parent here. We've had to make a lot of rules I'm not happy about, but they're necessary. Sometimes you have to adapt to a child's needs, and they don't always line up with the parenting style you envisioned.









We've seen progress, so I guess it _works,_ but I sure miss my more permissive, relaxed parenting days.









but then ap is about meeting a childs needs yk? totally unnecessary rules are one thing... but rules your child needs aren't arbitrary or unnecessary... they are what this individual child needs so that what you do yk?


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 







but then ap is about meeting a childs needs yk? totally unnecessary rules are one thing... but rules your child needs aren't arbitrary or unnecessary... they are what this individual child needs so that what you do yk?

Absolutely. If someone had told me 10 years ago I would have a child who would lie about things that didn't matter, steal my things, and do some of the bizarre things she has done in the past 3 years, I would never have believed it. I've felt violated _many_ times, so if I read her emails and occasionally go into her room to retrieve _my_ belongings, I don't think she has the right to feel violated. It's frustrating.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bigeyes* 
Absolutely. If someone had told me 10 years ago I would have a child who would lie about things that didn't matter, steal my things, and do some of the bizarre things she has done in the past 3 years, I would never have believed it. I've felt violated _many_ times, so if I read her emails and occasionally go into her room to retrieve _my_ belongings, I don't think she has the right to feel violated. It's frustrating.

exactly! she has given you every reason to go into her room and read her emails. she broke your trust yk? you probably wouldn't have done that prior to the lying and the stealing.

i think there is a huge difference between what you are talking about and when a parent does all of that and more even though their child hasn't given them a reason to think it is necessary


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
exactly! she has given you every reason to go into her room and read her emails. she broke your trust yk? you probably wouldn't have done that prior to the lying and the stealing.

i think there is a huge difference between what you are talking about and when a parent does all of that and more even though their child hasn't given them a reason to think it is necessary

Yeah. It's strange. Especially after having parents who gave us no privacy at all, I honestly could not have conceived of any situation where I would have to do anything like this.







You just never know.


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## rocketgirl96 (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Does your DH record your keystrokes too?

My kids are a teen and a preteen now. I can only imagine how much damage it would do to our relationship to demean them like that.

Nope, he doesn't, but if he wanted to, I'd be fine with that (and I think he'd be fine if I wanted to record his keystrokes too - I'll ask him tonight), since I have nothing to hide.
But you're talking about an adult-adult relationship which is totally different from an adult-child relationship. I have the responsibility to make sure my child isn't doing something that he shouldn't be. I'm the adult.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rocketgirl96* 
Nope, he doesn't, but if he wanted to, I'd be fine with that (and I think he'd be fine if I wanted to record his keystrokes too - I'll ask him tonight), since I have nothing to hide.
But you're talking about an adult-adult relationship which is totally different from an adult-child relationship. I have the responsibility to make sure my child isn't doing something that he shouldn't be. I'm the adult.

Recording your child's keystrokes simply means they will use the library computer or a friends computer for things they don't want you to see.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

I have and I would do it again. My parents thought I was a virgin until I ended up pregnant at 14. My husbands parents had no clue that he was doing drugs until it was too late. Eventually he became a homeless heroin addict. He was 19 years old, after 3 years of addiction, when he got sober. He had OD'd several times, and died twice. There is no question in his mind that had his parents not intervened that he'd not be alive today. He has an AMAZING relationship with his parents, always has, yet they didn't know.

There are some things that children just won't tell their parents no matter how close the relationship because there is always fear of disappointing them.

My kids, though, know that there is no assurance of privacy. I give them a lot of space and a lot of freedom, but I check up on them. I have their MySpace passwords and their email passwords. If I want to check them, I will, they know that. It's not something that I do often but occasionally I do. Once I found something that my 13 year old and I needed to discuss. It led to a very good discussion.

I don't assume that my kids are perfect. I don't assume that they won't still make mistakes and I encourage them to talk to me and often. I am pretty up to date as to what they and their friends are doing and their views on certain subjects. I won't be able to save them from everything, and many mistakes are good mistakes to make, but there are some mistakes that they can't unmake and if I can do anything to prevent those ones, I will.

Even still, I think my children trust me immensely.


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## fork (Feb 7, 2007)

I can say that I would never snoop though personal things unless I had a damn good reason (suicide/drugs). My mom was good about this, sometimes she would tidy up my room, but if she ever found/read anything personal, she never brought it up to me. I also had a computer with internet in my bedroom from about 14 on. Granted it was the 90's so the internet wasn't as big as it is now, but she gave me two rules: Don't give anyone your last name or address/phone number, and if I wanted to meet up with someone I just had to let her know and she would take me to make sure everything was on the up and up. Sure I did some bad things, messed around with smoking/drinking in middle school, and talked to lots of unsavory people online (I had great fun in making up my own fake identities), but it was all a learning experience.
DP's father was very much the "my house, my rules" kinda guy, and after his mom died things got even worse. He would sneak out at night and get up to all sorts of trouble. He moved out as soon as he could and hasn't spoken to his father in about 10 years. His father will not be at the wedding, and will never meet his grandchildren. I've only seen his father once, and I do think DP is being a little over the top, it is his father, and his choice how much he want's him involved in his life.
I think there's a pretty heavy line between responsible parent, and toxic. There's definitely some gray area between letting your kids run wild, and controlling/spying everything they do.


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## KavaKaya (Aug 6, 2008)

It can be such a catch 22.

Staying as close (emotionally, mentally) as we can is our approach.

We never needed to with dss. *phew*


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## accountclosed2 (May 28, 2007)

This is a very difficult question. I'm not sure what I would do. Privacy is a huge thing with me - and I have a very close, open relationship to my parents, always did.

However, I just wanted to comment on a few things. As a teenager I was very good at hiding what I wanted to from my parents - searching wouldn't have done them any good! Not that I hid anything important - I just hid all the fiction I wrote, I was totally upfront about alcohol, friends, depression etc (sex wasn't actually an issue, as I was really shy with boys). Trust me, if your child really wants to hide something from you, they will!

The other thing is, how do you know what your child wrote is actually true? My parents didn't believe me when I actually was depressed, nothing I wrote would have changed that, they just thought I was "over-dramatizing". On the other hand, I also know that I _did_ put both fiction, imagination and truth in my diaries - and it would have been impossible for anyone to know what was what! Now, my parents never saw the diaries, or my stories. But they didn't believe the letters I wrote to them, that were totally true!


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## kirstenb (Oct 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende* 
I don't assume that my kids are perfect. I don't assume that they won't still make mistakes and I encourage them to talk to me and often. I am pretty up to date as to what they and their friends are doing and their views on certain subjects. I won't be able to save them from everything, and many mistakes are good mistakes to make, but there are some mistakes that they can't unmake and if I can do anything to prevent those ones, I will.

I really like what you said here.

I never want to be the parent who snoops in my kids' rooms, reads their diaries, etc. My parents were very good about not doing that and I appreciate it. I want to have relationships with my kids where they can feel like they can come to me with problems.

However, DS is still little so we still have awhile before we are at that point. Who knows what he will be like in 12 years. If it was a matter of safety or his life, I would have no problems snooping.


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AislinCarys* 
This is a very difficult question. I'm not sure what I would do. Privacy is a huge thing with me - and I have a very close, open relationship to my parents, always did.

However, I just wanted to comment on a few things. As a teenager I was very good at hiding what I wanted to from my parents - searching wouldn't have done them any good! Not that I hid anything important - I just hid all the fiction I wrote, I was totally upfront about alcohol, friends, depression etc (sex wasn't actually an issue, as I was really shy with boys). Trust me, if your child really wants to hide something from you, they will!

The other thing is, how do you know what your child wrote is actually true? My parents didn't believe me when I actually was depressed, nothing I wrote would have changed that, they just thought I was "over-dramatizing". On the other hand, I also know that I _did_ put both fiction, imagination and truth in my diaries - and it would have been impossible for anyone to know what was what! Now, my parents never saw the diaries, or my stories. But they didn't believe the letters I wrote to them, that were totally true!

I think you make a good point, I have been reading this thread thinking "I never thought I would be the snooping parent" I have a very high reguard for privacy. But when my dd was going through some very hard times and I got suspisious, I did snoop. I went through her things when she was not home and looked at some of her writings. You know what? I didnt find a thing... the fact was she was doing meth and having sex and other dangerous behaviors ... but not one clue of that was in the things I looked through. I feel bad for going through her things and would not do that again.


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## finn'smama (Jan 11, 2006)

There is no way i will be invading my kids' privacy without a VERY good reason.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
You know, I can understand parents snooping when they think something is wrong even if I disagree, but this whole belief that children don't deserve privacy or that their room isn't their room, they just use it is so wrong and disrespectful. This is not going to foster an open relationship. It is going to foster hiding, deceit, and more destructive behaviours.









:


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Private things are private. Unless I had a damned good reason, I wouldn't look. I would _never_ read her diary though. No matter what the reason. A diary is too personal.


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## amydidit (Jan 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende* 
<snip>
My kids, though, know that there is no assurance of privacy. I give them a lot of space and a lot of freedom, but I check up on them. I have their MySpace passwords and their email passwords. If I want to check them, I will, they know that. It's not something that I do often but occasionally I do. Once I found something that my 13 year old and I needed to discuss. It led to a very good discussion.
</snip>

This. This right here. I have the feeling some people think I just conduct daily military style inspections and read every single word my DD writes, monitor her every move, etc. I don't. She KNOWS I can go through her room at any point. She knows I can read her email at any point. She knows "there is no assurance of privacy". Just because I don't believe a child has a *right* to privacy doesn't mean I don't give her ANY. I have gone through her room. I have read her journal. I have read her mail. BUT all when I had a good reason for it.







:


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

isn't it illegal to read someone else's mail?


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## amydidit (Jan 21, 2005)

Not a minor.

Edit: I should clarify. Not a minor when you're the legal guardian.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

if she knows you read her mail, go through her room etc. wouldn't she just hide stuff elsewhere?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I haven't read any replies, so this is just off the top of my head after reading the OP.

I would never, ever invade my child's privacy as a precautionary thing. I can imagine reading a diary if my kid had disappeared (find out if there was someone I should know about), and _maybe_ if I suspected serious drug abuse...though that would depend on a lot of gut feelings, I think.

Other areas, we handle a little differently. I have his email password, but I wouldn't check it unless I had a reason to (conversation led me to suspect there was something weird going on such as an older stalker, obsessive behaviour about the net, etc.). Our PC is in the living room, as I don't think internet access in his bedroom is a good idea, for many reasons.

Basically, I have great respect for ds1's privacy (my others are too little to worry about this yet), and it would take a _very_ high level of concern about a situation before I'd violate it. I would never do so just to "keep tabs". I have a pretty good idea what's going on in his life and in his head just from talking to him...prying in his diary (if he had one) would be creepy.

ETA: I just skimmed a few more posts. With regards to room searching...you're not necessarily going to find anything. I had a high school friend who was very sexually active, and she did use condoms, but she didn't keep them at home. I was sexually active in high school, and the only evidence was my pills, which I kept in my purse at all times. I smoked pot, and I only ever had it at home maybe twice. I did acid, and I _never_ had a hit at home. I also didn't keep a diary, which would have been the only tip-off about any of this stuff.


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## MOMYS (Nov 5, 2008)

My eldest is only 11 (next month) and at this stage he is an open book - kid is almost too honest . I can't imagine ever invading my children's privacy unless I feel they are at serious risk. In that case I would probably think twice, but do it anyway! The computer the children have access to (my dh has a work laptop and I have a computer for editing photos) is in the lounge facing the living areas. This is for everyone's protection. The same applies to me. When I'm on the internet, I don't mind them seeing what I'm doing.


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## cotopaxi (Sep 17, 2007)

I will check up as needed on internet communications, but I will be honest about it. That is to say, if my dd at the age of 12 or 13 wants to be on a social networking site, I will require full access to her profile and messages, and I will tell her so. I think most tweens and young teens need some supervision because they don't understand the full implications of this form of communication. Just like with dd now, at the age of 1, she's not ready to play unsupervised near a hot stove, so I'm not going to let her. The risks are just too great, in that it's both fairly likely that she would succumb to the temptation of touching it, and that if she did the consequences would be severe.

However, I hope to never to use deception or invade the privacy of any communications or writings that dd believes to be private. I.e. reading her diary without her knowledge, etc., eavesdropping on a phone conversation she believes is private. Of course there can always be very special circumstances (if I believed it were necessary to look through her diary to save her life, for example if she had run away from home and I thought it would give me a clue as to where she was), but as a general rule, I hope to avoid such practices.


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## finn'smama (Jan 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
if she knows you read her mail, go through her room etc. wouldn't she just hide stuff elsewhere?


yup.


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Like someone else said, never say never but...

I find it difficult to imagine a circumstance where I would invade DS's privacy. If I'm doing my job as a parent, then I'm doing my best to nurture the bonds between us, putting our relationship first. Trust is a huge part of that relationship. My feeling is by betraying that trust, I lose any credibility I might have had for helping him in a difficult of dangerous situation. Not to mention, it's just plain disrespectful and unkind to spy on someone. My hope is, if I'm doing my part of the work in our relationship, then I won't feel a need to invade DS's personal things in order to express my concerns.

If my parents had done this to me, I would have been furious, and I don't imagine all too willing to share with them my problems or anything else for that matter. Usually, if I'm having a difficult time in deciding how to handle any issue with DS, the first thing I ask myself is how I would want to be treated in the same situation. I can't imagine a circumstance where I would have wanted someone snooping into my personal things, and that would be the main premise on which I would base such a decision.

The best,
Em


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## momma4fun (Jan 23, 2007)

here are issues that come to my mind

1) Snooping can become addictive for the parent, as of course the life of our child is fascinating to us, but when do you turn it off? When they turn 18? When they're off in the real world?

When does the tide magically turn back into your children being human beings worthy of trust and respect? How do your kids finally prove themselves worthy of their own private feelings, words and actions? How does the parent deal with the sudden loss of her peep show?

2) The parent gets her feelings hurt by what she finds, which can actually prevent her from being able to help her child.

For example, my little brother at home recently told his friend in an e-mail that he was sick of hearing my parents fight. So my snooping parents were mortified and lectured him about being loyal to the family, and told him they were worried if they could trust him. They were so upset over the e-mail they read that they completely forgot to address the real issue -- that my little brother has been feeling unloved because of my parents' frequent arguing.


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## Aubergine68 (Jan 25, 2008)

I agree with those who say they would snoop if they felt their child's safety warranted it, and with those who say that their children's diaries, etc. might not be reliable sources. I know mine weren't.

Wrt internet privacy. I don't think children should be encouraged at all to think that they are free to totally express themselves online without fear of consequences. For us as adults, using computers at work, sharing computers with a spouse, posting on social networking sites....there is never a guarantee that our information is safe and once we put it out there, we cannot call it back. A friend's teenage sibling almost got their dad fired from his job because she used daddy's laptop to view porn on the internet after her school project was done and snooper software at his work detected it. There are lots of situations where being careless online gets you into trouble. If my children are thinking about everything they type because they worry that mom and dad may be reading it later, well, that is not such a bad habit for them to have.

I have never lived with a snoopy parent, though -- in fact, looking back, I really, really wish my parents had snooped, indeed, been more interested in my life at all.....I could type a lot more about this to explain my position, but because I know that there is no such thing as assurance of privacy on the internet, I will not do so...


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## j_p_i (Sep 9, 2008)

My Mom did this to me as a child. At 17, she went through my room and found a note I'd written that eluded to buying condoms for prom night (she would not allow me to be on birth control because she thought this encouraged sex... but I was a virgin until 17 anyway). After finding this, she called my Dad, and things spiraled out of control from there! He threatened not to let me go to college the next year, said he wouldn't help me if I got pregnant at that point (I was a month away from being 18). It killed me at the time. I was being responsible... and this was very hard on our relationship. My Mom told me later she wished she'd never told him, but still.

I wouldn't do this to my child unless there was some reason for me to think they were in some sort of danger or something along those lines.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

The more I make my house like a home where we can all let our hair down and the least like a prison, the more likely I feel it is that my kids will continue to open up to me.

I don't know how I would effectively parent my teens if I didn't know what their lives were like and if I didn't get that information willingly from them. It just doesn't seem possible to me.

My mom was very strict and because of that she essentially know nothing of my teen life. I still truly shudder when I think of the horrifying situations I wound up in just to avoid her finding out. I'm honestly astounded I survived.

So no, I wouldn't snoop in my kids' private affairs. If I felt they were hiding things from me and upset or hurting in some way, I would look at my actions as their mother and try to figure out how to make them feel safe and confident enough to talk to me. I would also let them know I notice something's up and see if we could find another trusted adult for them to confide in if they didn't feel comfortable talking about it to me.

I think it would be emotionally crippling to my kids to take away their autonomy in the ways some on this thread have mentioned. It would undermine their self confidence in very fundamental ways. Home is the one place I feel in this world that should be the safest place to be ourselves. IF not at home then where??


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma4fun* 
here are issues that come to my mind

1) Snooping can become addictive for the parent, as of course the life of our child is fascinating to us, but when do you turn it off? When they turn 18? When they're off in the real world?

When does the tide magically turn back into your children being human beings worthy of trust and respect? How do your kids finally prove themselves worthy of their own private feelings, words and actions? How does the parent deal with the sudden loss of her peep show?


Well, I can tell you for us, I haven't had to go into dsd's room since my ID and credit cards went missing a couple of months ago. Those were the last items to go missing in our household afaik, and they were _mysteriously_ returned after a few days. When I first realized she was stealing, my first instinct whenever something was missing was to go look in her room, and it was usually there. Now I can take a minute to retrace my steps first because she truly has made progress and I don't believe she's stealing something every time she gets upset. I can see how a parent could get stuck in the automatic _search and destroy_ mode, but we have been able to move forward.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aubergine68* 

Wrt internet privacy. I don't think children should be encouraged at all to think that they are free to totally express themselves online without fear of consequences. For us as adults, using computers at work, sharing computers with a spouse, posting on social networking sites....there is never a guarantee that our information is safe and once we put it out there, we cannot call it back. A friend's teenage sibling almost got their dad fired from his job because she used daddy's laptop to view porn on the internet after her school project was done and snooper software at his work detected it. There are lots of situations where being careless online gets you into trouble. If my children are thinking about everything they type because they worry that mom and dad may be reading it later, well, that is not such a bad habit for them to have.











Dh and I don't do porn, internet or otherwise. Just not our thing.







However, when his oldest dss was a teen, his previous wife accused him of it..._until he proved to her by the dates and times on the history that it was her ds,_ who was home from school while dh was at work. I don't know if he was always anti-porn, or if this experience clinched it-Dh has a friend whose ds actually was convicted of rape when his girlfriend's parents found out they were having sex and she was afraid of their anger so she claimed rape. The prosecution used internet porn on his computer as 'evidence' against him to claim he coerced her and she was an innocent victim instead of a willing partner. After this, Dh _thought_ he had made it clear to his dss there would be no porn on the PC or TV, period, and exactly why.

Our 2 are too young to know this story, but when they're older they will definitely know we are anti-porn on _our_ PCs or TVs. What they do when they live on their own is up to them. I _thought_ they already understood about not handing out their names and address, but apparently not.







:

You just have to keep reminding them, I guess.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

If I thought she was in real danger and for her safery needed to seek answers then yes I would no hessitations. I wouldn't just do it with out cause just because I'm the "parent" though but for safety yes. Also our child/children will grow up understanding nothing is priviate on the internet...

Deanna


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## rocketgirl96 (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JSMa* 
Room searches? Like just random room searches just because??

*shudders*

I know you mean well... but geez... do you think your child will ever feel comfortable in their own space knowing you will just waltz in whenever and search them?? I can't even think of how degrading and demoralizing that is.









Like another poster said: "I think I will probably snoop, but be like my mom. She (with the exception of the condom incident) never let me know she snooped, but used what she found out to have certian talks."

That's the way I would do room searches - kind of sneaky like and I would not confront them directly with anything I found (unless it was dangerous or illegal ie. drugs) but it would allow me to target talking about certain subjects with them. I don't see how it can be degrading or demoralizing if you use the information wisely and not confrontationally.

Christine


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## rocketgirl96 (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Recording your child's keystrokes simply means they will use the library computer or a friends computer for things they don't want you to see.

I understand that and so along with the spying will be talks about what is acceptable and not acceptable as far as computer usage. But if you can find out unacceptable usage at home first, then you'll know better what you're dealing with.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rocketgirl96* 
Like another poster said: "I think I will probably snoop, but be like my mom. She (with the exception of the condom incident) never let me know she snooped, but used what she found out to have certian talks."

That's the way I would do room searches - kind of sneaky like and I would not confront them directly with anything I found (unless it was dangerous or illegal ie. drugs) but it would allow me to target talking about certain subjects with them. I don't see how it can be degrading or demoralizing if you use the information wisely and not confrontationally.

Christine

i guess i don't think you need to snoop to have good conversations.

i'll talk to my kids about sex, drugs, alcohol etc without snooping through anything.

if you are only looking to talk about things with them you don't need to snoop since you don't need 'proof' they are doing it


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rocketgirl96* 
I understand that and so along with the spying will be talks about what is acceptable and not acceptable as far as computer usage. But if you can find out unacceptable usage at home first, then you'll know better what you're dealing with.

talking about spying like its eating dinner is totally blowing my mind


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## rocketgirl96 (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
i guess i don't think you need to snoop to have good conversations.

i'll talk to my kids about sex, drugs, alcohol etc without snooping through anything.

if you are only looking to talk about things with them you don't need to snoop since you don't need 'proof' they are doing it









I'm not saying the ONLY things I'll talk about are the things I find through snooping. Of course, I'm going to have all those same conversations regardless (sex, drugs, alcohol, etc). But I just feel like snooping every so often can give you an edge, so to speak, to know what you need to focus on and when to give extra guidance.


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## rocketgirl96 (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
talking about spying like its eating dinner is totally blowing my mind

I guess I might be just a little bit more pessimistic about human nature than others on here.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rocketgirl96* 
I guess I might be just a little bit more pessimistic about human nature than others on here.









considering the kind of teenager i was i should be pretty pessimistic. I know that snooping like that would have made me 1000 times worse. if i knew i couldn't trust my parents and knew they didn't trust me i would have said screw it and done whatever the he!! i wanted.

i think this is why it seems like such a bad idea to me.


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## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

oddly enough, I had no real DESIRE to rebel, but my mom had so may rules it was impossible not to break them! Part of my parenting strategy is to keep the rules simple, and clear cut. Half the time I got in trouble for stuff I didn't even know was against the rules!!
I think that could go a long way. Please make sure your children are 100% aware of what is and is not acceptable, that way if you do any of these things they know why!


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
considering the kind of teenager i was i should be pretty pessimistic. I know that snooping like that would have made me 1000 times worse. if i knew i couldn't trust my parents and knew they didn't trust me i would have said screw it and done whatever the he!! i wanted.

i think this is why it seems like such a bad idea to me.

I was the opposite. I was such a goody two shoes, other kids couldn't believe it. But I did work 3 part time jobs so I hardly ever was home except to sleep. I think that's why I was so shocked by dsd's behavior...my older brother and I wouldn't have dreamed of doing anything our parents told us not to. We were _terrified_ of the consequences. Even though we aren't hardcore authoritarian parents, it never occurred to me that my children would be openly defiant and dishonest.







The concept was totally foreign to me, but then, I don't know what normal _is._


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## rocketgirl96 (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
considering the kind of teenager i was i should be pretty pessimistic. I know that snooping like that would have made me 1000 times worse. if i knew i couldn't trust my parents and knew they didn't trust me i would have said screw it and done whatever the he!! i wanted.

i think this is why it seems like such a bad idea to me.

I can see what you're saying - each child will internalize things differently. I think it would depend on the child how much you'd want to tell them about any snooping you might be doing. I guess I had very sneaky parents because I never knew they snooped until I was older. They never let on that they knew more than I was telling them. But now that I'm older, I'm glad they kept an eye out for me and were pro-active about it. But I never knew! Barring any real serious issues, in which case I'd have to come clean about my snooping, I'm thinking that I'd be the same way. Thus, unless something serious were to happen, if they don't know you're snooping, it can't make them rebel any more than they already would naturally.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I think your title may be slightly confusing, OP. I think a lot of people are reading "to make sure they are okay" as "I see signs of immenent concern/danger" rather than "snooping to see if they fit my standards." Even by your own description, it doesn't sound like what you heard on the radio fits the former.

Is there a parent out there that, if they SERIOUSLY thought their child was in serious danger that wouldn't use whatever tools they needed to use in an emergency?

I grew up with controlling/abusive parents, and because of my dad's job pretty much being monitored was par for the course. At first I had the gut reaction that I would never ever read a diary or follow my kid. But when I thought about it, that's not true. If I thought that I might need to act quickly to protect my child, I would. I believe that my "dangerous" threshold is far more reasonable and healthy than what my parents felt, and I certainly don't have the same structure or motivation.

I sincerely hope that I would never be in the position to make a choice like that. But I don't know, not to be a downer but in my journey of parenting I've had to make a lot of decisions that previously I would have said "I WOULD NEVER EVER!" So I've decided to stop tempting the universe and saying stuff like that. It would take a lot, but I assume there would be some threshold at which I would be prepared to suffer the consequences of breaking in to my teen's computer files or rummaging through their room.


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## Jezzy (Sep 20, 2006)

I have read her diary, Last week. My dd (13) told me that she had a bf she has had a crush or two so I didn't think anything of it until she told me that he was 19!! I got scared what on earth does a 19 year old want from a 13 year old?

I told her that it was against the law and I FORBID her to ever see him. He lives about an hour away from us but he has a car! I wanted to know just what was going on and she wasn't talking just saying that she was *in love*

I felt that I HAD to read her diary, she is 13 and needs to be protected. Sex was mentioned in her diary, she had asked her *bf* if he had sex with someone since they were together. I NEED to talk to her about this. 13 is just WAY to young.

It wasn't my intention to snoop. I just needed to know that she was ok.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

My mom found out I was pregnant by reading my journal. I moved out five days later, so I can't say her snooping did much for our relationship at the time, although we do get along now.


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## mama_ani (Aug 2, 2007)

I would never read my childrens' diaries or private letters/writings. I don't even go into their rooms if they aren't there unless I'm gathering laundry or cleaning.
The Internet is a different matter. Everyone here knows that dh and I know all the passwords and will check Facebook/Email/MSN chat logs at any time. To me this is necessary to keep them safe and it was part of the agreement in them using the Internet in the beginning.
This works for our family


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

No, I absolutely won't spy on my kids to make sure they're okay. If they catch me doing it, they're certainly NOT going to be okay.

If I have reason to believe that they are endangering themselves or someone else, I'll take actions to prevent that . . . but spying is not one of them.


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## Phoenix~Mama (Dec 24, 2007)

*The4OfUs*

Quote:

For those who were snooped on, and resent it: Did your parents use the information they got in a punitive, shaming, etc. manner? Would it have been "better" to you if they hadn't brought it out that way, but instead had conversations with you about being safe, etc.? I wonder if a larger part of the problem was the way they handled it, not just that they did it at all. Also, did they talk with you beforehand about the fact that some things, for your safety, needed to be open? Or was it all in a dictatorial sort of "MY HOUSE MY RULES" type of dynamic? I'm interested to know your thoughts.
Growing up my parents house was very much a "my house, my rules" place. I never knew they would just search my things and throw them in my face. The teen years were the worse ever. I felt very violated and never felt like I could talk to my parents about anything... so I withdrew from them even more.

What made me even more angry... I was a "good" kid. I got straight A's in school. I was in several activities, band, chorus, a peer tutor at my grade and at the elementary school, debate... etc. I also worked part time. I had a ton of responsibility, and the fact that they were still treating me like a child incapable of making any of my own decision really pissed me off. I gave them no reason to search my room.

Yes I became sexually active at 15... but I was responsible about it and went to Planned Parenthood, got on the pill and got condomns. I attended underage drinking parties and hosted a few myself, but we were always responsible about it and made sure none of our friends drank and drive. I experimented with various drugs, but never got into it too deep, and my life never suffered from it.

To be grounded because I had condomns blew my mind... I did not have a good relationship with my parents til well after I moved out and was in my early 20's. They never respected me as a person to make sound decisions... this still comes up some to this day actually, they like to tell me how to spend my money and worry I spend too much money on going out to eat when I have a baby on the way... Note, all my bills are paid. Money isn't overflowing, but we are okay, and I don't think it's any of my parents business.

It would have nice for them to respect me and appreciate I was doing well, even if I was doing things they did not agree with... at least I wasn't dropping out of school or something.

Quote:

If you already feel that she is off course and this is how you are responding she will only become better and better at hiding things the older she gets. She will have a cell phone you know nothing about. She will create email accounts and myspace accounts that you know nothing about. You won't even know her friends' names. She will sneak out in the middle of the night. She will cut school. She will do anything she can to feel that she has some sense of autonomy, control and privacy, which the development thereof is a vital part of adolescents and becoming an adult. Being possibly troubled but then being this mistrusted and this subject to an absolute lack of any privacy, autonomy and general faith in her as a person will backfire.

How are kids supposed to grow up to become responsible, self-reliant human beings if they are not allowed to make a single risky choice for themselves, a single mistake, or a single choice that goes against their parents' values?
This!!! This is precisely how I handled my parents spying/snooping into my life. I got a pager behind their backs (this was before cell phone days) lol... I started sneaking out at night because I was only supposed to go to school, work and my extra curricular activities... they did not want me having a social life at all... I'm a social person, I needed the interaction.

I made some bad choices... but I learned from them too, and I think I came out okay in the end.







I'm here aren't I? lol

But wanted to add some knowledge for parents that said they would check up on their kids to make sure they are where they say they are and know their friends and such... My parents tried to do the same... but after they broke my trust so many times... I was sick of it and started doing more and more of my own thing. I had it set up with my best friend that if my parents called there for me, I'd be "in the bathroom", she would know where I really was and would call me letting me know my parents called, I'd call them back... My parents never knew where I was half the time...

It might have been different if they talked to me in a respectful manner and realized I wasn't just some dumb kid.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JSMa* 
Growing up my parents house was very much a "my house, my rules" place. I never knew they would just search my things and throw them in my face. The teen years were the worse ever. I felt very violated and never felt like I could talk to my parents about anything... so I withdrew from them even more.

<snip>
To be grounded because I had condomns blew my mind... I did not have a good relationship with my parents til well after I moved out and was in my early 20's. They never respected me as a person to make sound decisions... this still comes up some to this day actually, they like to tell me how to spend my money and worry I spend too much money on going out to eat when I have a baby on the way... Note, all my bills are paid. Money isn't overflowing, but we are okay, and I don't think it's any of my parents business.

It would have nice for them to respect me and appreciate I was doing well, even if I was doing things they did not agree with...

<snip>

But wanted to add some knowledge for parents that said they would check up on their kids to make sure they are where they say they are and know their friends and such... My parents tried to do the same... but after they broke my trust so many times... I was sick of it and started doing more and more of my own thing. I had it set up with my best friend that if my parents called there for me, I'd be "in the bathroom", she would know where I really was and would call me letting me know my parents called, I'd call them back... My parents never knew where I was half the time...

It might have been different if they talked to me in a respectful manner and realized I wasn't just some dumb kid.









I can see why anyone who had to deal with this as a teen would be resentful and not want to 'monitor' their kids for fear of it turning into the same thing, and I'm so sorry you had to live this. I was a "good" kid too, who did happen to start having sex at 16 but that was my only vice







....my parents were not snoopers (at least that I know of); I gave them no indication that anything was wrong with me to snoop about. I think most of us here are saying that we're going to be open, honest, and respectful with our kids, and not just snoop or keep tabs on them just to get our jollies and make a power play...BUT, if we see troubling signs, we would not NOT snoop just to save their privacy. I feel the same way about my husband, and about anyone that I love. If I saw them heading down a destructive/dangerous path, I would do what I could to help them...and sometimes that might mean finding out things that they are hiding from you. Obviously in a relationship where there is no respect to begin with, there's going to be a lot of hiding, and I can totally understand it. I would hope that with a more open, closer relationship, there would be less hiding and the chance for feeling the "need" to snoop would be less.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
I think your title may be slightly confusing, OP. I think a lot of people are reading "to make sure they are okay" as "I see signs of immenent concern/danger" rather than "snooping to see if they fit my standards." Even by your own description, it doesn't sound like what you heard on the radio fits the former.









: I think there's a HUGE amount of space between a parent searching their kids room routinely just to see what they're up to and just because they can, and judging/punishing their child based on what they find, and a parent who sees their child heading down a destructive path and seeing if there is anything helpful but hidden in their room that would help the child stay safe. I'm pretty sure most of us on the thread fall into the latter category (at least I know I do).

I guess the thing is, I want to be open, close, and honest with my kids...there will be _reciprocal_ transparency about lots of issues, and I'll talk with them about lots of topics; ongoing conversations about tough issues will hopefully go a long way in preventing problems. So I hope in that way to avert a lot of the problems that many on this thread talk about where their parents didn't do a lot of talking or respecting, but did snoop. Or threw snooped information in their face...or other controlling, disconnecting type things. However, if push came to shove and my child started dramatically pulling away from me (more than the normal teen/parent separation), doing foolish/dangerous/disrespectful things, and/or acting like a completely different person, I would first try to talk to them about it, but if that wasn't productive I would definitely snoop.

I read Hold On To Your Kids (Neufeld), and it really, really resonated to me. My parents were very emotionally connected with me, and we had a close relationship even through the teenage years. They respected me, and I respected them...however, that didn't mean that they didn't check in on me, or stay involved in my life, or set limits on my behaviors/activities, because they did. And they did no less themselves, either (always let me know where they were going and when they'd be back, didn't shy away from uncomfortable conversations, etc.)...the relationship they fostered from the beginning led itself to me trusting them throughout my teen years, and listening to their counsel in difficult situations. And they proved to me they were trustworthy by not micromanaging my life, but setting out more 'big picture' guidelines, BUT nonetheless, staying connected and involved with meddling. I don't think that closeness is the kind of thing you can fake well, and if I suddenly withdrew from that, they would have had good reason to dig deeper into what was going on with me.

I am going to do everything I can to foster that closeness with my kids while at the same time setting age appropriate limits and boundaries...because I do believe that the teen years, while very important for gaining independence and discovering oneself away from your parents, also has the potential for some major problems and issues, due to the swirling mass of hormones and not yet fuly developed emotional/social IQs. And until my kids are able to intellectually, emotionally, and socially fend for themselves in society, I will be there to guide them, and gradually, gently hand over the reigns.


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## jjawm (Jun 17, 2007)

At the moment, my stepsons (9 & 11) don't do any email or facebook. And I make it a point to not go through their stuff. I feel like snooping simply encourages dishonesty. Of course, if I were at all concerned, I'd try to talk with them first, and if need be snoop. But that would not be my first reaction. I try to encourage my children to tell me the truth, and I want them to trust me.


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## Tizzy (Mar 16, 2007)

I would much rather keep the lines of communication open than feel like I had to control every bit of their lives.
My mom snooped constantly on my computer, recorded chat conversations, rifled through everything and anything in my room, read every single note I ever wrote.
She confiscated any mail she didn't deem appropriate, even after I was 18. My favorite was when I ordered pajamas from VS (regular cotton pajamas) and the invoice had string bikini's back ordered. You know, regular underwear? She didn't know what they were and thought I had ordered something really slutty hahaha!

Oh my gosh when she found my stash of condoms, all hell broke loose. One way to teach about responsiblity...

So I just learned how to be an expert liar.
In fact, when I was honest about where I was going or what I was doing, she would flip out and insist that I must be lying. I never did anything awful enough for her to have any reason to get upset. But when I lied, she believed me! Go figure. It did nothing for our relationship, it just drove me further and further away. There's no trust between us whatsoever and I find it impossible to forgive her for everything she said and did during my teenage years under the premise of "keeping me safe".

The only consolation is that she was just as freaky about my sister. My sister worked nights so my mom would drive 20 minutes into town (we lived in the country) to stalk my sister after she got off work. She'd drive around town to find out where she was hanging out and sit and watch her from the car.
CREEPY!

I guess she didn't feel confident that she did a good enough job raising us to be smart independent individuals.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rocketgirl96* 
Like another poster said: "I think I will probably snoop, but be like my mom. She (with the exception of the condom incident) never let me know she snooped, but used what she found out to have certian talks."

That's the way I would do room searches - kind of sneaky like and I would not confront them directly with anything I found (unless it was dangerous or illegal ie. drugs) but it would allow me to target talking about certain subjects with them. I don't see how it can be degrading or demoralizing if you use the information wisely and not confrontationally.

Christine

How do you think your kids will feel when they catch you "sneakily snooping"? My guess is that it would have a very detrimental effect on the relationship. Kids are not stupid, they can tell when someone has been going through their things, no matter how "sneakily" it's been done. Especially when "certain talks" happen afterward.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I think what one expcts makes a huge difference babout how we feel about this. My childen hav no expectation of pivacy. i you write it people will read it. if you photograph it people will see it. if you bring it in the house the dog will chew it. everything on the internet is public poperty. No one in this house house has a huge expectation of privacy. We are lucky if the bathroom door stays shut while we ae pooing. ooms are shared, living areas ar common and we have on computer that has filters, reports etc. but they know all this. and I think it is a good thing to know. So many people get into trouble beause they think they are so clever and that a passwod or taboo or whatver is going to potect them but if you don't want it accessible don't leave the evidence around.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
I think what one expcts makes a huge difference babout how we feel about this. My childen hav no expectation of pivacy. i you write it people will read it. if you photograph it people will see it. if you bring it in the house the dog will chew it. everything on the internet is public poperty. No one in this house house has a huge expectation of privacy. We are lucky if the bathroom door stays shut while we ae pooing. ooms are shared, living areas ar common and we have on computer that has filters, reports etc. but they know all this. and I think it is a good thing to know. So many people get into trouble beause they think they are so clever and that a passwod or taboo or whatver is going to potect them *but if you don't want it accessible don't leave the evidence around.*

they wont.


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## Scribe (Feb 12, 2007)

There seems to be a base level disagreement here about whether privacy is something kids need (or deserve), as a rule. I honestly can't believe anyone wouldn't think they both need and deserve it, but clearly some people do.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

you don't kids need or deserve privacy? why not?


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *avengingophelia* 
There seems to be a base level disagreement here about whether privacy is something kids need (or deserve), as a rule. I honestly can't believe anyone wouldn't think they both need and deserve it, but clearly some people do.

I think for some people "keeping kids safe" is a euphemism for "attempting to assert complete control".

You can't control a teen. You can try, but you can't control them. All you can do is hope that they cooperate. A teen treated like she has no right to privacy, and shown that she is not trusted or respected is unlikely to cooperate.


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## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Recording your child's keystrokes simply means they will use the library computer or a friends computer for things they don't want you to see.

I agree with this - I went to the library one time to get on the internet (i was trying to get some extra coupons and my computer had already printed the limit







). Every single computer was in use by tweens and teens. And the majority were on IM or myspace.

To answer the original OP - I would only invade my child's privacy if I thought they were in trouble. And I would never use any of it in a shaming way. And trouble would mean suicidal or drugs.


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## Scribe (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
you don't kids need or deserve privacy? why not?

No, I absolutely DO think that kids need and deserve privacy. But some here clearly don't. That was my point. I can't wrap my head around that.


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## mama_ani (Aug 2, 2007)

This thread has prompted a few interesting conversations with my 13 and 12 yo dds. They said that they think that if they are acting like they would be suicidal or on drugs or drinking too much alcohol then we should snoop in their room but not for any other reason. I love that I can talk to my kids about this kind of thing. I never could talk to my mom growing up. Actually, her snooping through my room is how she found out I was pregnant with my oldest dd.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *avengingophelia* 
There seems to be a base level disagreement here about whether privacy is something kids need (or deserve), as a rule. I honestly can't believe anyone wouldn't think they both need and deserve it, but clearly some people do.

I can't believe it either. I wonder how much people know about adolescent development.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
I think for some people "keeping kids safe" is a euphemism for "attempting to assert complete control".

You can't control a teen. You can try, but you can't control them. All you can do is hope that they cooperate. A teen treated like she has no right to privacy, and shown that she is not trusted or respected is unlikely to cooperate.

Yes.

I can tell right now which kids are not going to trust or open up to their parents, which ones are more likely to act out, etc.

Self fulfilling prophecy here. Very sad.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
I think what one expcts makes a huge difference babout how we feel about this. My childen hav no expectation of pivacy. i you write it people will read it. if you photograph it people will see it. if you bring it in the house the dog will chew it. everything on the internet is public poperty. No one in this house house has a huge expectation of privacy. We are lucky if the bathroom door stays shut while we ae pooing. ooms are shared, living areas ar common and we have on computer that has filters, reports etc. but they know all this. and I think it is a good thing to know. So many people get into trouble beause they think they are so clever and that a passwod or taboo or whatver is going to potect them but if you don't want it accessible don't leave the evidence around.

I think that is true. In our home we have an expectation of privacy. Although my son is only 3, he is able to have private time in the bathroom to use the toilet if he wants it, and we have discussed his "private parts" and why they are private. And we intend to keep having that discussion.

My husband is free to write in his journal and I in mine and not have to store them in locked boxes. We each may have time in the bathroom with the door shut to do... whatever we want to do.

We both are free to participate in communities - online and off - without having to record each other's keystrokes or report on what exactly was said because we both trust each other fundamentally _and_ believe that part of being an autonomous human being involves some privacy - like being able to go out for lunch with a girlfriend and vent.

I value my time on these forums where I occasionally share things about my experience of growing up with my parents' foibles, or frustrations, and while there is nothing that I would write that would be a dealbreaker in those relationships, I also choose my place and time so that I can have these conversations apart from them with a reasonable - not rock-solid - expectation that they're not likely to 'overhear'. I use a username that does identify me well enough that if you looked you could spot me, but it also isn't so unique as to come up on Google.

I'm ok with my son doing the same in his future.

I don't personally think the only answer is "everything online is public so I can read all your email anytime I want." It's an ethical question we all are grappling with - for example, it may or may not be legal to forward email, but we *all* need to think about whether it is ethical. Is it right to post email to a bulletin board to make fun of it because "it's public"? These are not simple things.

I think a lot of these questions were raised with phone lines (anyone else remember party lines?) but can you imagine if your neighbour tapped your line? Ha.

I value privacy and I also value the ability to have different connections and conversations with different people without having to run them past my family as a censor. And I intend to provide that for my son.

I can see that other homes operate differently and that's fine, just expressing my views.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *avengingophelia* 
There seems to be a base level disagreement here about whether privacy is something kids need (or deserve), as a rule. I honestly can't believe anyone wouldn't think they both need and deserve it, but clearly some people do.

I guess I have different standards for different realms of privacy.

Privacy to *not* have their every thought, move, and idea monitored, recorded, and/or criticized/used as ammunition against them? Absolutely.

Privacy to be able to be alone in the bathroom, their bedrooms and have a private paper journal and private phone conversations? Sure.

Privacy online? Not so much. As others have said, everything online is pretty well public, and there are unfortunately lots of sneaky ways people can take advantage of unsuspecting people (esp kids).

Privacy to have their own cell phone with texting plan? Again, not really in my book (DH and I have pay-as-you-go, bare bones cell phones, and will consider the same for kids as they get older, but not a bells and whistles type deal).

Privacy such that they're not accountable for where they are, and who they're with? Nope.

FWIW, all of the above go for me and DH as well - so it's no double standard.

BUT, if there are signs of trouble brewing? IMO, my first responsibility is to keep them safe and healthy...not to respect their privacy as absolute.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

I've asked my kids on their opinion on this matter a while ago when it was discussed on a TV show or something. My older 2 are 16 and 13. They both said that they would search through their own kids belongings if they thought they needed to. These are kids who, as most of us know, probably spend plenty of time thinking "I'd never do *this* like my parents", but they are also not naive enough to think that teenagers don't get into trouble and sometimes need an adult to intervene. I can't stress enough that as much as some kids love and trust their parents, sometimes that backfires because they are afraid that their parents won't feel the same way once they find out what they've done. They won't be honest, sometimes for the first time in their parent/child relationship, because they are scared of disappointing their parents.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

My children will have privacy unless I have a good suspicion that something is happening that can harm them, and at that point my responsibility to protect them will be greater than their need for privacy.


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## rocketgirl96 (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amydidit* 
Just because a child is a full and complete human doesn't mean they have the maturity, wisdom, knowledge they need to lead a safe life. I wouldn't send a child out into the world to live by herself for a reason. Children NEED guidance and a parent to help them grow up into an adult who IS prepared for the real world. I don't believe a parent can do the best possible job of that without ALL the info.

I do it BECAUSE I love my children. I do it because I know what harm can come of a parent who looks away and doesn't KNOW what their child is doing. I will do everything in my power to ensure my children stay safe so they CAN grow up into adults. That is my role as a parent, and one I take very seriously.









: I think this says it a lot more eloquently than I ever could.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *avengingophelia* 
No, I absolutely DO think that kids need and deserve privacy. But some here clearly don't. That was my point. I can't wrap my head around that.

oo ok.. i had read your pp was wondering when you changed your mind lol. but yeah i agree with you i don't understand why people seem to think children don't need or deserve privacy.

the internet i can understand monitoring... but only to an extent.. put parental controls up for goodness sake... check the webpage history.... you don't need their myspace password to view their page... you just need to know they have a myspace... and if it is on private you need to be their friend. i have a myspace account with nothing on it so i can keep up with my friends.

they should not expect emails and IMs to be confidential... and chances are good that they will learn this the hard way. The first time one of there 'friends' prints out an email or an IM convo and shows it to whomever was being discussed and then both people and probably a few extras will be steaming mad (and depending on the age give them the silent treatment for awhile) they will learn real quick if you don't want someone to see it then you probably shouldn't type it.

i would much rather have my kid learn about the internet that way. what do they learn from you telling them nothing they say on the internet is private because you are monitoring their every keystroke? they learn not to type on your computer... and they learn not to trust you. Knowing you are monitoring them doesn't teach them about the internet it teaches them about you.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Ive never done it. But, if I felt like I had a reason to, I certainly would.


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## Phoenix~Mama (Dec 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
oo ok.. i had read your pp was wondering when you changed your mind lol. but yeah i agree with you i don't understand why people seem to think children don't need or deserve privacy.

the internet i can understand monitoring... but only to an extent.. put parental controls up for goodness sake... check the webpage history.... you don't need their myspace password to view their page... you just need to know they have a myspace... and if it is on private you need to be their friend. i have a myspace account with nothing on it so i can keep up with my friends.

they should not expect emails and IMs to be confidential... and chances are good that they will learn this the hard way. The first time one of there 'friends' prints out an email or an IM convo and shows it to whomever was being discussed and then both people and probably a few extras will be steaming mad (and depending on the age give them the silent treatment for awhile) they will learn real quick if you don't want someone to see it then you probably shouldn't type it.

i would much rather have my kid learn about the internet that way. what do they learn from you telling them nothing they say on the internet is private because you are monitoring their every keystroke? they learn not to type on your computer... and they learn not to trust you. Knowing you are monitoring them doesn't teach them about the internet it teaches them about you.


Very very well said. *nods* I agree.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
oo ok.. i had read your pp was wondering when you changed your mind lol. but yeah i agree with you i don't understand why people seem to think children don't need or deserve privacy.

the internet i can understand monitoring... but only to an extent.. put parental controls up for goodness sake... check the webpage history.... you don't need their myspace password to view their page... you just need to know they have a myspace... and if it is on private you need to be their friend. i have a myspace account with nothing on it so i can keep up with my friends.

they should not expect emails and IMs to be confidential... and chances are good that they will learn this the hard way. The first time one of there 'friends' prints out an email or an IM convo and shows it to whomever was being discussed and then both people and probably a few extras will be steaming mad (and depending on the age give them the silent treatment for awhile) they will learn real quick if you don't want someone to see it then you probably shouldn't type it.

i would much rather have my kid learn about the internet that way. what do they learn from you telling them nothing they say on the internet is private because you are monitoring their every keystroke? they learn not to type on your computer... and they learn not to trust you. Knowing you are monitoring them doesn't teach them about the internet it teaches them about you.

Yep. I always tell my kids never to put anything on email, IM or the internet that they would be embarrassed to see published in the NY Times







Cos it never goes away. The same goes for text and picture messages from their phones. With 2 parents working in IT, they got that message pretty early. So, they will be discreet regardless of the location of the PC.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Choli and Jsma - i learned it the hard way in high school lol.. so did everyone i know at one point or another. lol it sucks! but it definitely gets the message across lol.

actions speak louder then words and your (general you) actions say you don't trust them at all. they will have a very hard time learning to be trust worthy. They have never had trust so they will not know how important it is, how easy it is to break, and how hard it is to repair.

Ok lets say you have an really good kid... she doesn't get into trouble, doesnt look at or talk about things you disapprove of. the worst thing she is hiding is that she is dating a guy in her class. which she hides by not talking to him or about him at home.. they pass notes in school but she leaves them in her locker. her and her best friend who you know and trust go to the movies together and bump into him. the hold hands watch the movie and go home.

lets say you have a kid who's not quite a easy. she makes a friend (G)you dont like... she knows you don't like her. you tell her that you really dont trust her ... b/c you honeslt have a bad feeling. she ignores you b/c its not like you trust her ... and shes your own daughter... no surprise you don't trust anyone else. She tells you they arent hanging out anymore. she stops talking about her at home.. and never talks to her on your phone, your computer, or her cell phone. she does however by a pay as you go phone ... which you don't have to be 18 to buy... if you don't let her have money her friend helps her pay for it. they talk on the phone at night after she is supposed to be in bed. harmless enough

she wants to hang out with G outside of school. she tells you she is going to M's house.. you know M and her parents and you trust them. M knows all about this and tells her mom she is coming to spend the night. You talk to M's parents when you drop you daughter off there. Your daughter then sneaks out of M's house and goes out with G ... when you call M's house to check on her M tells you they are talking on the other line to a friend from school and can you hold on a minute. she switches over calls your daughter on threeway waits for her to answer then switches back. you talk to your daughter.. all is well. meanwhile you daughter is out with G and her big sister and her sisters friend. she drinks and so does G and G's sister but shes not about to call and tell you where she is so she risks it and gets back to M's house no worse for the wear.

except that she learned a lot from all of this.

1. she can sneak out of a house.. first her friends.. yours is probably next
2. she can lie about where she is any you won't know.
3. Older kids are fun to hang out with
4. she can drink without you knowing
5. her friends older sister can drink and then drive safely
6. all this time you really have been being completely unreasonable.. she lied to you, snuck out, hung out with older kids, got drunk, drove with someone drunk and she is perfectly fine and had a great time best part is you never found out

so she took those first little steps and she keeps taking more and more and getting better and better at them. she's great at lying, much sneakier, drinks and gets high regularly, has sex with one of the older guys, and thinks people can drink and drive as long as they are tipsy not drunk.. or if its been atleast 2 hours since their last drink and they had something to eat,

well you have been snooping all this time and found nothing to be worried about. you didn't notice your daughter was acting different b/c you have never given her any trust so she has never really trusted you.

you wake up one night and realize your daughters not there. where is she? you look through her room and find nothing (as usual) re check the internet..nothing. you call her cell phone and see it vibrating next to her bed. you panic... and call M's mom. M's mom tells you she and M haven't hung out in a long time. this is a surprise b/c when your daughter does talk to about things in her life it is mostly things about her and M at school.

M's mom says she will wake M up and call you back. She calls you back with the number of the cell phone you didn't know she had. when you call her she laughs at you for taking so long to figure it out... and flat refuses to come home.

you can ground her, monitor her, take away both phones, whatever you want. but it wont matter b/c the only difference is that she is officially 'grounded' but thats certainly wont stop her.

things you don't know

she has a myspace, Yahoo account, online journal, and screen name she only accesses at school and at friends houses so you won't find out

she has a bag that she keeps in G's car it has clothes that you wouldn't approve of, a tooth brush, hair brush, and make up. it also has a fake ID, a pack of cigarettes, a dime bag, condoms, a bottle vodka, the Percoset she stole from your husband after he got is wisdom teeth pulled.. she sells it when she needs money to pay for the rest of the stuff in the bag.. and the pay as you go phone she bought after you took the old old. she keeps it with her at all times...

at this point what happens is hit or miss. what happens depends on the people involved.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Quote:

Why would a child follow your rules, tell you the truth, ask your permission etc let alone actually talk to you about their life and their feelings when you have already decided you don't trust them?








My parents decided when I was 16 that they could not trust me. They still refuse to discuss exactly what triggered this. What they said at the time was that they believed I was keeping secrets. Well, of course I had some secrets--I was 16 and beginning to have my own life--but none of them were dreadful. I felt like they punished me when I did talk to them, by blowing everything out of proportion and assuming that I was doing everything my friends were doing. You know, sometimes I told them about my friends because I was uncomfortable with what my friends did and wanted to talk about that!

The two biggest blowups I ever had with my parents were caused by someone ELSE's parents snooping on their teen's correspondence with me and feeling a need to tell my parents about it--or actually, in the one case, feeling a need to tell her co-worker who told her husband who worked with my dad and told him, so that he got a totally distorted impression of what was going on.







: And the biggest mistake they made both times was thinking that they understood the situation from the information they had, jumping on me for what they thought I was doing rather than asking me what was going on, and refusing (at first) to reveal their sources so I could understand where they were coming from. This could be a big problem for parents who do the snooping themselves, too. What it does is put the child on the defensive against false accusations, make her paranoid about how you're getting the information, and motivate her to avoid letting you find out anything further about her for fear that you'll twist it.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Oh, one more thing: At least one poster mentioned a teen who steals from other family members. In that situation, of course I would try asking first, but I think it is reasonable to search the whole house for your stuff, even the private space of other adults.

For example, my partner and I used to live with housemates. One Christmas the housemates were away, and we couldn't find some CDs we wanted to play. We looked everywhere in our space and public space. Then we recalled that one of the housemates had made some mix tapes to give as Christmas gifts. After a long discussion of whether it was okay, we went into her room and looked only at her CD shelf. We found our CDs...and we found that she had scratched off (incompletely) the return-address stickers that marked them as ours. That's what took it from "I borrowed them without asking and forgot to return them" to theft. We spent most of Christmas







: figuring out how to address this with her. When both housemates were back, we held a household meeting...at which the other housemate demanded to know if that's what had happened to HIS missing CDs, which it was...and we told her her excuses were lame and we expected her never to "borrow" anything without asking again.

This person was 28 years old. If my 13-year-old child did the same thing, I would respond the same way. However, if the person was home (or would soon be home) when I discovered the items were missing, I would wait for her to get home, ask, "Have you seen my CDs?" and give her a chance to return them without my having to go into her room. If she didn't, and I still couldn't find them, THEN I would wait until she was out and look in her room. I realize that gives her a chance to hide them, but it also gives her a chance to come clean. I think that's important.


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

This is a really interesting thread.

There is a lot of judgment here.







Just because you (general you) do not agree with someone else's parenting decisions does not mean that their children will turn out poorly, that they are controlling _or_ overly permissive parents, or their their children will feel exactly as you (general you) did when you parents did x, y, and z to you. Children are individuals, and maybe the behavior which you (general you) simply _cannot_ stomach or imagine is what that child truly needs. If your child has psychological problems, for example, or is possibly harming someone else, there are some boundaries that will need to be crossed.

This is a very fine line to walk, IMO. I was a pretty easy teenager-- mostly because I was boring and into academics. My younger sister was more stylish and social, and she was much more challenging. I don't want to post her personal info, here, but she went through a _lot_, and much of it was caused by _other people harming her_, not by wrong things that she was doing herself. She was so desperate for their (that is, the people who harmed her)approval that she didn't tell my parents.... they found out about some of her problems (for which she needed, and immediately received, professional counseling) because of the (accidental--_really_) snooping of her friend's mom.

One more thing, re: internet safety. My children will know with certainty that internet activity is not private. If their friends, their friends' friends', the stranger who hacked in their friends' myspace accounts, etc, are seeing their activity, then their _mother_ will be seeing it, too. I firmly believe in the importance of privacy, but "privacy" on the internet is an illusion. If I provide the computer, the internet service, etc, I feel like I have a SERIOUS responsibilty to make sure that it is safe (that my child will not be exposed to pornography, perverted strangers, "bullying," etc). IMO, it's like having a speed limiter on a car... or for that matter, having functional brakes.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

my roommate in college stole my adderall







: during exam week too! i would never have known but i thought they were disappearing kind of fast so i counted them one day and then went class.. when i came back i was missing one! i started taking them with me after that.. i knew which roommate it was but i never said anything to her... i just told the psychiatrist what happened and he wrote me another prescription. then when i explained it the pharmacist she lied and told insurance company someone stole my purse and they were in it.. so that i wouldn't have to pay full price.

i never said anything b/c i just started keeping them with me and moved out a little bit later. If we were family i would have definitely said and done something about it.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaterPrimaePuellae* 
This is a really interesting thread.

There is a lot of judgment here.







Just because you (general you) do not agree with someone else's parenting decisions does not mean that their children will turn out poorly, that they are controlling _or_ overly permissive parents, or their their children will feel exactly as you (general you) did when you parents did x, y, and z to you. Children are individuals, and maybe the behavior which you (general you) simply _cannot_ stomach or imagine is what that child truly needs. If your child has psychological problems, for example, or is possibly harming someone else, there are some boundaries that will need to be crossed.

This is a very fine line to walk, IMO. I was a pretty easy teenager-- mostly because I was boring and into academics. My younger sister was more stylish and social, and she was much more challenging. I don't want to post her personal info, here, but she went through a _lot_, and much of it was caused by _other people harming her_, not by wrong things that she was doing herself. She was so desperate for their (that is, the people who harmed her)approval that she didn't tell my parents.... they found out about some of her problems (for which she needed, and immediately received, professional counseling) because of the (accidental--_really_) snooping of her friend's mom.

One more thing, re: internet safety. My children will know with certainty that internet activity is not private. If their friends, their friends' friends', the stranger who hacked in their friends' myspace accounts, etc, are seeing their activity, then their _mother_ will be seeing it, too. I firmly believe in the importance of privacy, but "privacy" on the internet is an illusion. If I provide the computer, the internet service, etc, I feel like I have a SERIOUS responsibilty to make sure that it is safe (that my child will not be exposed to pornography, perverted strangers, "bullying," etc). IMO, it's like having a speed limiter on a car... or for that matter, having functional brakes.









snooping when you know something is wrong is way different then snooping just to 'make sure' something isn't wrong.

one is to find out how to help your child.. the other one.. i don't know.

if you snoop all the time and your child knows it they are just going to hide stuff.. where they know you wont find it. friends houses and cars for example. using an email account and myspace you don't even know exists. then if something bad happens and you actually need to snoop you won't be able to find anything.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JSMa* 
But wanted to add some knowledge for parents that said they would check up on their kids to make sure they are where they say they are and know their friends and such... My parents tried to do the same... but after they broke my trust so many times... I was sick of it and started doing more and more of my own thing. I had it set up with my best friend that if my parents called there for me, I'd be "in the bathroom", she would know where I really was and would call me letting me know my parents called, I'd call them back... My parents never knew where I was half the time...

It might have been different if they talked to me in a respectful manner and realized I wasn't just some dumb kid.









I was a bit of juvenile delinquent in some ways - lots of emotional problems going on in my teens. That said, my parents _always_ knew where I was, almost always knew where my brother was, and knew where my sister was, more often than not (and there are serious issues there - she lives in her own world and was a compulsive liar as a teen). My parents never snooped. I had several friends whose parents _did_ snoop - and every one of them snuck out of the house after going to bed, arranged for friends to lie to their parents, etc. If something had happened to one of those kids, their parents wouldn't have even known where to _start_ looking for them. The parents didn't trust their kids - many of the kids adopted a "might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb" approach - the kids also didn't trust their parents, because it's hard to trust someone who spies on you.

As for me...I never respected anyone who didn't treat me with respect. If my parents had started spying on me, I would have has no respect for them, and would have behaved exactly as my friends did.


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
snooping when you know something is wrong is way different then snooping just to 'make sure' something isn't wrong.
<snip>
using an email account and myspace you don't even know exists. then if something bad happens and you actually need to snoop you won't be able to find anything.

I agree, and I would not "snoop" for the sake of snooping
(fwiw, I don't considering internet controls snooping--- just part of the rules of using the internet in our house. If these rules are explicit, it's no more an "invasion of privacy" than the filters on Dh's computer at work. I DO NOT provide internet access so my kids can bully, be found by pedophiles, or look at porn. Period. if I find them sniffing glue, *I'm* not going to buy them more glue, even if there are 10 stores in walking distance where they can buy it. Same with misuse of the internet.).

The problem-- the gray area-- is that sometimes there are so few signs that something is wrong. It could be just the slightest inkling of something "off," or it could be huge red flags. This is really, _really_ a difficult issue, IMO, and the "correct" resolution depends so much on one's own values and principles that judging other parents so absoluetly seems very uncharitable to me.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i think if a parent feels like something is 'off' with one of their kids they should trust their instincts. if you are concerned enough to snoop a little then i would go with that instinct yk?

but it needs to be b/c something is off with the child. if is just generally suspicious then i think thats wrong... snooping b/c something is off and you are concerned doesn't necessarily break your child's trust.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

under 18 and living in my home = no privacy.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaterPrimaePuellae* 
I firmly believe in the importance of privacy, but "privacy" on the internet is an illusion.

This is very true. I was reminded of this when I found out in May that two of my relatives had been reading my posts about my pregnancy with Aaron, and repeating the content of them to my mom..._and_ urging her to come here and read my posts herself. While I knew the privacy here was an illusion, I did think more highly of my relatives than that. Now I know they can't be trusted and will gladly invade my privacy, read my posts about highly charged emotional issues (eg. VBAC and the death of my son) without telling me, and otherwise behave in a voyeuristic fashion about my life...all out of "concern".

I don't like it any better now than I did when I was a teenager, and my relationship with those two people has been _permanently_ impacted in a very negative way. Whatever their motives may have been, I will never trust them again. I never want my kids to feel that way about me.


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
This is very true. I was reminded of this when I found out in May that two of my relatives had been reading my posts about my pregnancy with Aaron, and repeating the content of them to my mom..._and_ urging her to come here and read my posts herself. While I knew the privacy here was an illusion, I did think more highly of my relatives than that. Now I know they can't be trusted and will gladly invade my privacy, read my posts about highly charged emotional issues (eg. VBAC and the death of my son) without telling me, and otherwise behave in a voyeuristic fashion about my life...all out of "concern".

I don't like it any better now than I did when I was a teenager, and my relationship with those two people has been _permanently_ impacted in a very negative way. Whatever their motives may have been, I will never trust them again. I never want my kids to feel that way about me.


Goodness-- my sympathies








All of my siblings have had similar (though neither as extreme nor sad) situations arise via facebook/myspace/etc-- people they didn't know were reading all about their lives and reporting back to my mom, ladies in my parents' church (














, relatives.... it was a mess. And my sister had a semi-stalker logging in and following her via his roommates' computer (or something like that... it was weird).

I have heard people argue that one should not read one's child's blog. To me that seems very backwards... but this is a strange world, sometimes.

ETA-- when I was *in college*, my boyfriend's parents (now my in-laws! ha!) staged an "intervention" (and his father called my father at work (!!!!!!!)) because they thought we were having sex. And we weren't. We were sleeping in the same bed somtimes. It was MORTIFYING. I feel sick remembering it. My future Dh was 22 or something at the time (but living at home). Their basic thing was, "It's our house, our rules." FutureDh almost moved out afterwards, and I would have encouraged him to do so if his friends (i.e., future roommates) had not been absolute losers.
It did damage my relationship with them, yes. I still think about it sometimes. Even then, though, (and more so now) I realized that they were doing it because they loved their son (and me, too)-- they thought I was being seduced.







: Um... if anything, the other way 'round.









Our relationship has totally healed. There will always be scarring, but it has healed. So even if parents make mistakes, if they are truly making the mistakes out of love and not their desire to *control* (or voyeurism, as StormBride notes), then there is definitely a way past it.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

May I also add that there are always going to be parenting choices that are going to be detrimental (at least in the short term) to one's relationship to one's child? Sometimes though the short term loss is to the benefit of the long term.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think it depends on the situation. If you think you have a legitimate reason to do this because your child is giving a lot of signals that they may be suicidal or on drugs then I do think you have some reason to do this. I think it should be done only if you have a well founded concern though, not because you are wanting to snoop. My parents did do this a few times when I was a teen but they didn't tell me until I was an adult and had my own child. Apparently they even plucked some of my hair to test me for drugs and I never knew. I didn't really care when I found out but that was because we have a really open and close relationship.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
May I also add that there are always going to be parenting choices that are going to be detrimental (at least in the short term) to one's relationship to one's child? Sometimes though the short term loss is to the benefit of the long term.

It obviously varies from person to person, but loss of trust isn't a short term issue with me. It doesn't matter who it is. Once someone has proved that I can't trust them (by snooping my room, for example), I don't trust them. In the very few instances where I've patched things back up to some degree, it's still nothing at all like it was prior to the trust being damaged.

I'll also add that some of us _need_ our space desperately. My room was my refuge as a teen, and having someone snooping around in there would have been devastating. Mom actually did look around once, when she had serious concerns about reports from school. Even at the time, I understood exactly why she did it...and I still didn't feel safe in that room again for about two years. It was the _only_ safe space I had in the world...and it was stolen from me. Fortunately, I knew my mom well enough to know that only extreme concern could drive her to do that for me, so I did regain my safe space, eventually. _Solely_ because I understood why she'd done it, I did eventually trust my mom again. She's the only person who has ever betrayed my trust and earned it back - the only one.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
If you think you have a legitimate reason to do this because your child is giving a lot of signals that they may be suicidal or on drugs then I do think you have some reason to do this.

What's the rationale for spying on someone if you think they're suicidal? One of the things that contributed to my depression all through my teens was the feeling that the world was hostile, mean and unsafe for me (I was bullied a lot, which was part of it). I'm fortunate in that I regained my feeling of safety in my room before I started having my major depressive episodes, but I think another invasion of my privacy at that time would have pushed me over the edge.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 
under 18 and living in my home = no privacy.

Lemme guess, not a math major?


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## amydidit (Jan 21, 2005)

If my mom had read my diary or snooped in my room at all when I was a teenager she would have known I was suicidal and found me help. Instead my *help* came after my suicide attempt. So that's MY rationale. I'd rather be able to help my child BEFORE she tries to kill herself thank you.

If my DD grows up to hate me, well, I'd hate that. But *I WANT HER TO GROW UP*. If the only way to get her there safe and healthy is to end with her hating me. It's a pain I'll have to deal with.







I would hate it, but I would hate myself more if I didn't *snoop* and lost DD forever from suicide, getting killed in a gang, etc.

My mom NEVER snooped at all. Didn't read my mail, never went in my room, didn't listen to conversations, etc. But I don't trust her in the least. Never did. And when she tried to kidnap DD1 that kind of cemented that. So just because you'd rather not look in your DC's stuff doesn't automatically mean you're going to have a child that adores you and trusts you immensly.

And for the record, my *snooping* started AFTER there were huge warning signs. And I'm glad I did. If I hadn't I may not have DD with my now.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
What's the rationale for spying on someone if you think they're suicidal? One of the things that contributed to my depression all through my teens was the feeling that the world was hostile, mean and unsafe for me (I was bullied a lot, which was part of it). I'm fortunate in that I regained my feeling of safety in my room before I started having my major depressive episodes, but I think another invasion of my privacy at that time would have pushed me over the edge.

My parents used this because they knew that I was suicidal and I think it helped them to identify with me more. And as I said, until I was an adult I didn't know that they had done this. I think done in this way though it can help a parent to know a little more about their child who thinks the world hates them and doesn't understand them and knowing this can save their life. It isn't the same for all people and it would have been a horrible blow for me if I had found out, but the way they did it worked and helped build up our relationship.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I had problems with depression in high school too. If I think one of my kids is suicidal, I will absolutely snoop. But it would take something that serious, and I'd have to have a strong feeling about it. I do feel that kids should have as much privacy as they can, but serious issues like drug use or potential suicide would be bigger than that.

I would not snoop about sex. If you find out your kid is having sex, what will you do? If I suspect that she is having sex, I'll get her birth control and get on with life. You can't stop a teenager who wants to have sex from having sex. That's just folly.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

bu thee is a difference between puttin a keystioke reader and chcking the histoy o simply eading thi blog o looking at their myspace site. those things are by nature public. anything they type at home or school or on any shared compute inherently lacks pivacy.


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I would not snoop about sex. If you find out your kid is having sex, what will you do? If I suspect that she is having sex, I'll get her birth control and get on with life. You can't stop a teenager who wants to have sex from having sex. That's just folly.

Even though I am very conservative on this issue (I am borderline Catholic and think chastity is very important-- we're thinking of even NFP), I agree. I hope very much that my children choose to be chaste before (and after) marriage, but this is _not_ something that can be forced. My Dh and I did not have sex until after were were married, but it was mostly because of fear of discovery/a sense of guilt, not because of moral choices based on reason and faith. I wish I had made the same choice but for better reasons.
Anyway, my job is to teach them/model behavior as best I can, but _this_ is a choice they have to make on their own. And yeah, we could have had sex 1000 times in 1000 places, even after the "intervention." referenced in my post above.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamajama* 
Lemme guess, not a math major?

















:







: If it's not statistics, keep it away from me.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I guess one of the reasons I don't get the thing about being suicidal is that there was never anything in my room or anywhere else that would have tipped anyone off. I knew some parents snooped in diaries, and that alone was enough reason never to have one.

I suppose if a child had a diary or letters or something like that, snooping could be useful with a suicidal teen. It just seems very...iffy. I'll also add that if I'd found out years later that my parents had been reading my private journal/poems/etc., it would have been the _end_. I'd rather have someone spying on me in the freaking bathroom than reading my private thoughts...what an incredible invasion. The whole thing just creeps me out to a degree I can't describe.

I guess I just urge people to use caution. A pp mentioned that having a child grow up hating you is worth if if they grow up...but what if they don't? What if they're like me? What if snooping is enough to actually drive them over the edge?

I do know I'd do it if I really had deep concerns about something, but I'd feel like a terrible parent, and it would very much be the lesser of two evils. I can't imagine reading a diary for anything short of a child disappearing, and wanting to find out if there's any info about someone they might know or something. I specifically do _not_ want to know about anything sexual they may write down. Their sexual _thoughts_ are none of my business...and if they're already acting on them, I can't turn back the clock, in any case. As a woman of 40, I still want to hit the people who read my posts here - those posts were public, and meant to be read - but they weren't meant to be read by members of my family. If they'd been journal entries, meant to be written, but read by nobody, it would have been much, much worse.


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## Aubergine68 (Jan 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
snooping when you know something is wrong is way different then snooping just to 'make sure' something isn't wrong.

one is to find out how to help your child.. the other one.. i don't know.

What is the difference between "snooping just to `make sure' something isn't wrong" and appropriate supervision/monitoring, in all areas, but especially where it concerns internet use?

I don't have the inclination or the time to be a helicopter parent or to run my home like a totalitarian dictatorship ....but I can't imagine a time when my children are not yet adults and using the internet in my home that I would not make them aware that their internet use would be supervised. I'd also supervise them learning to drive, supervise their education, supervise parties they hold at my house, supervise them learning to cook....and the level and type of supervision would depend on the child's age, maturity and level of independence. But failure to provide this supervision would be parental neglect, imo.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I guess one of the reasons I don't get the thing about being suicidal is that there was never anything in my room or anywhere else that would have tipped anyone off. I knew some parents snooped in diaries, and that alone was enough reason never to have one.

I suppose if a child had a diary or letters or something like that, snooping could be useful with a suicidal teen. It just seems very...iffy. I'll also add that if I'd found out years later that my parents had been reading my private journal/poems/etc., it would have been the _end_. I'd rather have someone spying on me in the freaking bathroom than reading my private thoughts...what an incredible invasion. The whole thing just creeps me out to a degree I can't describe.

I guess I just urge people to use caution. A pp mentioned that having a child grow up hating you is worth if if they grow up...but what if they don't? What if they're like me? What if snooping is enough to actually drive them over the edge?

I do know I'd do it if I really had deep concerns about something, but I'd feel like a terrible parent, and it would very much be the lesser of two evils. I can't imagine reading a diary for anything short of a child disappearing, and wanting to find out if there's any info about someone they might know or something. I specifically do _not_ want to know about anything sexual they may write down. Their sexual _thoughts_ are none of my business...and if they're already acting on them, I can't turn back the clock, in any case. As a woman of 40, I still want to hit the people who read my posts here - those posts were public, and meant to be read - but they weren't meant to be read by members of my family. If they'd been journal entries, meant to be written, but read by nobody, it would have been much, much worse.


ITA. If you are concerned something is wrong, then do something. You don't need to snoop to intervene. If one snoops and doesn't find anything, are their fears going to be quelled? Probably not. I imagine the parent would still do something, so why not do something before snooping?

And you're right. Lack of privacy and respect can worsen depression, for example.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aubergine68* 
What is the difference between "snooping just to `make sure' something isn't wrong" and appropriate supervision/monitoring, in all areas, but especially where it concerns internet use?

I don't have the inclination or the time to be a helicopter parent or to run my home like a totalitarian dictatorship ....but I can't imagine a time when my children are not yet adults and using the internet in my home that I would not make them aware that their internet use would be supervised. I'd also supervise them learning to drive, supervise their education, supervise parties they hold at my house, supervise them learning to cook....and the level and type of supervision would depend on the child's age, maturity and level of independence. But failure to provide this supervision would be parental neglect, imo.


first of all i think there is a difference between supervising and snooping. parental controls, computer in a common room, checking visited website is supervising.

recording their key strokes and reading IMs, Emails, etc...well.. honestly? how would you (general) feel if dp said ok well im going to start monitoring everything you do online. you ask why and he says just to make sure your not doing anything i don't want you to. wtf? yk? why would you do that to your kids?


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
ITA. If you are concerned something is wrong, then do something. You don't need to snoop to intervene. If one snoops and doesn't find anything, are their fears going to be quelled? Probably not. I imagine the parent would still do something, so why not do something before snooping?

And you're right. Lack of privacy and respect can worsen depression, for example.

yep. i also think that we should try not to take our issues from our childhood and put it onto our kids. i really wished my parents had noticed i was adhd before i got to college. i wish high school hadn't sucked so bad b/c i didn't know what was wrong with me. I'm not going to base my parenting around that though,

pp mentioned she should snoop and read her kids diaries b/c her parents didnt notice she was suicidal until after a suicide attempt. While I understand that fear i think it is unfair to your child to make them pay the price for what your parents did or didn't do with you. yk? She may not be the least bit depressed and to invade her privacy like that b/c you were depressed isn't right. keeping your eyes and ears opened and staying attuned to the warning signs would be much more effective.

You will know something is not right if your child is suicidal or depressed. you can take action much sooner instead of waiting for something drastic. you won't know from reading her diary (i mean you might be thats not necessary) you'll know b/c your her mother and you won't hesitate to get her help.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
You will know something is not right if your child is suicidal or depressed.

I think that's true. My mom didn't realize how bad it was with me, but she did know something was wrong...and that was despite dealing with two other seriously messed up kids, two invalid - and toxic - parents (my mom was the primary caregiver for both her parents from the time I was 6 months old until grandma died when I was...19? 20?...something like that), _and_ an alcoholic husband. She was still aware enough to pick up that things were going wrong, even if she wasn't aware of just how bad it was.

I just...I know if ds1 and his ex g/f (still _really_ close friends) have had an argument. I know if he's had a bad day at school. I watch him. I watch how he interacts with his ex, with his friends, with us, with his siblings...I talk to his teachers, and make sure the "public" ds1 and the private ds1 are congruent. Even if he did have something that seemed depressive written down in his room or something...I wouldn't necessarily know what it was, or whether it meant anything. (I had an Iron Maiden song written down in my binder for a long time, and I put it there when I wasn't suicidal, but if someone saw it and didn't know what it was, they'd have wondered...they'd have really wondered. For that matter, I have a poem about death that I wrote about 10 years ago, and I wasn't depressed when I wrote _that_, either.) The day-to-day ds1 is a much better indicator.


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## Aubergine68 (Jan 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
recording their key strokes and reading IMs, Emails, etc...well.. honestly? how would you (general) feel if dp said ok well im going to start monitoring everything you do online. you ask why and he says just to make sure your not doing anything i don't want you to. wtf? yk? why would you do that to your kids?


Bad example in my case.









Dp and I open each others mail, share bank accounts, share an email account, use our cell phones interchangably depending on whose is most charged, and without going into details, his online relationships are mine and mine are his. We share the same identity on some online forums, including facebook and gaming sites. He sometimes reads my posts on this forum. Why I might very well be my dh right now, rather than myself....

No, seriously, I don't have a lot of need or expectation of online privacy from my spouse. We have been known to ask each other why we hung out on a particular website or why we spent so much time searching on a particular term. This is a way of starting conversations, not a way of controling each other. Like saying "Hey, what do you think of that book you've been reading. I saw the title because you left it on your nightstand last night?" We just don't see the internet as a private space, sorry.

But to answer your question more specifically, I check up on my one child who is old enough to be on the internet because she is a child and I am her parent and it is appropriate for me to make sure she's ok doing what she's doing. -- that she's not hurting herself or anyone else. I want to be able to provide her with some guidance, some clues as to online manners and mores. Half the time, I'm her help desk anyway -- she asks me how to do things online, advice on answering emails from friends, etc. She's 10, btw.

I'm sure that my level of involvement will change as she grows older, and we'll negotiate that as needed, but I don't expect that she will have or need a complete internet privacy from me. Why should I? I don't need it from my spouse....maybe we'll have a family engagement with the internet and invent something new that way....


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## grniys (Aug 22, 2006)

Lots of great posts. Really, really great ones. From both sides on the issue.

One of the pp's who mentioned trusting your instincts (I think it may have been 1littlebit?) brought up a great point. As parent's we have instincts for a reason. To protect our children. To know when something is wrong. But, it's also true that there aren't always signs. So... it's a tough call.

Reading over these posts I've just been thinking... it's not even the fear of my child committing suicide. If I think that there's something in my home that should not be there... whether it's a weapon, or drugs of any kind, I absolutely have the right to make sure that it's not there. It is my home, and I am responsible for what is in it. So if I think that something is a bit off and want to check my kid's room out and make sure that there's not something that shouldn't be there, it's absolutely my right.

I'd never go so far as to install camera's and such, because I believe that everyone is entitled to a certain level of privacy. But my dh and I discussed this wayyyy before we ever had kids. There won't be and betrayal of trust because they'll know that we, as their parent's, reserve the right to go into their room's- that we pay for!- at any time for any reason. It is my home, and while I want to maintain a certain level of privacy for my children, I also have the right to feel comfortable in the knowledge that they don't bring things on my property that aren't supposed to be there.

I highly doubt I'd go snooping just cause I can. It's more of an issue that, if I think something's off, if my instincts are kicking in, if my child has been acting in a way I find worrisome or strange, yeah, I'm going to check it out. No if's, and's or but's about it.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i don't necessarily think going into your kids room is snooping... depends on what you're doing while you're in there.

reserving the right to search your kids rooms is fine.. as long as you only do it if you think there is something in there you should know about.

"i searched his room b/c he has been really distant lately ... and every time i ask a question he bites my head off."

is way different then

"everything is fine i searched his room b/c he's probably doing something wrong."

and honestly? i don't think a kid can start doing drugs, carrying weapons, become severely depressed or anything drastic like that without there being some signs. will you find them shooting up in the bathroom? probably not. but there is a fairly good chance their grades will drop and they will probably be acting sneakier then before. if your previously non depressed child becomes seriously depressed there'e going to be signs there too.

No there may not be huge red flags.. at least not any you can see in the moment.. and probably there won't be. but there will be signs... you will be able to tell something is not right. it might be subtle.. it might not be... but you will know. you will know because you know your kid and _at the very least_ unless they have no conscience they will act slightly different b/c they are lying to you. you really really really have to trust your instincts.. similar to the way you trust your instincts with an infant. can they tell you whats wrong? no. do you know something is wrong? yep. how do you know? you just know.


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## grniys (Aug 22, 2006)

I think most of what you're saying is pretty spot on... but the thing about drugs... wouldn't the grades start falling after it's been going on for sometime? I mean, they're not going to get high for the first time and automatically start failing school. The sooner you (not specifically you, general you) find out your kid is doing drugs and do everything you can to put a stop to it the bigger your chance of stopping the problem before it gets huge.

The lines get a bit blurry. I think it's absolutely about trusting instincts and listening to the instincts and doing what you truly believe to be in the best interest of your family as a whole. (Again, general you, not specifically you, lol).


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aubergine68* 
What is the difference between "snooping just to `make sure' something isn't wrong" and appropriate supervision/monitoring, in all areas, but especially where it concerns internet use?


Snooping just to make sure that something isn't wrong is purposefully violating your child privacy (i.e. going through their things that you would other wise not looks through such as a diary or drawers if you don't do their laundry) monitoring is setting up a way things are done to ensure you have a better knowledge of what's going on. For instance, we'd don't always know exactly what dd does when she's on the computer, but she doesn't have a computer in her room and she's not allowed to use it without a parent in the house. No one in our house has an expectation of privacy on the computer, not even DH and I.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grniys* 
I think most of what you're saying is pretty spot on... but the thing about drugs... wouldn't the grades start falling after it's been going on for sometime? I mean, they're not going to get high for the first time and automatically start failing school. The sooner you (not specifically you, general you) find out your kid is doing drugs and do everything you can to put a stop to it the bigger your chance of stopping the problem before it gets huge.

Drugs have more then one symptom, some show up sooner then others. That's why parents need to educate themselves. And someone who gets high once isn't necessarily going to get high again.


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## mamabeca (Oct 3, 2004)

Woah.

I've peeked, but haven't read. I think it's ok to look for key words, that's my boundary. More than that seems prying, rather than safety to me. I think everyone is entitled to their own personal boundaries though, and there is no absolute right or wrong.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I guess one of the reasons I don't get the thing about being suicidal is that there was never anything in my room or anywhere else that would have tipped anyone off. I knew some parents snooped in diaries, and that alone was enough reason never to have one.

I suppose if a child had a diary or letters or something like that, snooping could be useful with a suicidal teen. It just seems very...iffy. I'll also add that if I'd found out years later that my parents had been reading my private journal/poems/etc., it would have been the _end_. I'd rather have someone spying on me in the freaking bathroom than reading my private thoughts...what an incredible invasion. The whole thing just creeps me out to a degree I can't describe.

I guess I just urge people to use caution. A pp mentioned that having a child grow up hating you is worth if if they grow up...but what if they don't? What if they're like me? What if snooping is enough to actually drive them over the edge?

I do know I'd do it if I really had deep concerns about something, but I'd feel like a terrible parent, and it would very much be the lesser of two evils. I can't imagine reading a diary for anything short of a child disappearing, and wanting to find out if there's any info about someone they might know or something. I specifically do _not_ want to know about anything sexual they may write down. Their sexual _thoughts_ are none of my business...and if they're already acting on them, I can't turn back the clock, in any case. As a woman of 40, I still want to hit the people who read my posts here - those posts were public, and meant to be read - but they weren't meant to be read by members of my family. If they'd been journal entries, meant to be written, but read by nobody, it would have been much, much worse.

Yeah to all of this. I can't tell you how much it bugged to me to know my dsd had gone into everyone's rooms in our house and stolen from us, or how much it bothered me to have to go into her room after my stuff. It just felt wrong. I remember being so pissed that my parents treated me that way and feeling like I could not trust my child was the same thing all over again. Your home, and especially _your room,_ is supposed to be your sanctuary. Even going into someone else's room to get my own stuff felt wrong, because I feel so strongly about my own personal space, yk?


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

whew, it took me all day to read this thread ... lol ... there are some wonderful posts here but I feel I just need to add one thing

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jezzy* 
I have read her diary, Last week. My dd (13) told me that she had a bf she has had a crush or two so I didn't think anything of it until she told me that he was 19!! I got scared what on earth does a 19 year old want from a 13 year old?

ok, I have btdt .... but If she told you these things then why did you have to snoop? How long do you think she is going to continue to tell you things when you betray her privacy like that? I have been through that with my dd - and yes I did snoop. I regret it, it was not helpful anyway and I feel bad about it to this day.

When I was 13 and started seeing an over-age guy, the minute we were threatened to stay away from each other, we just took off. That is not what I want with my kids ... sorry slightly ot

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
ITA. If you are concerned something is wrong, then do something. You don't need to snoop to intervene. If one snoops and doesn't find anything, are their fears going to be quelled? Probably not. I imagine the parent would still do something, so why not do something before snooping?

And you're right. Lack of privacy and respect can worsen depression, for example.











So many people are talking about - "if I thought my kids was in trouble with drugs/sex/suicidal I would snoop" amazes me... the above post represents my opinion, learned from my own experience.


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## momma4fun (Jan 23, 2007)

i just can't imagine.......seeing my teenager act distant..... and then deciding i had better go search her room for contraband and check out her diary

the two do not go hand in hand in my mind AT ALL

i think i would be a victim of fearmongering to think that a teenager's attitude = the contents of her room.

if i'm worried about my kid, i'm going to try talking to her, or have dp talk to her, or encourage her to talk to her friends or an adult friend about her feelings. i would look for a new regular opportunity for us to reconnect and do something fun together. i would examine my own attitude to see if i've been too dismissive or critical lately. i would sit and remember what it's like to be a teen. i would reassure myself with some books or conversation about how moodiness and attitude and rebellion is so normal and healthy for teens who are learning more about themselves and where they fit in to the real world.

i wouldn't even think to search her room.


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma4fun* 
i wouldn't even think to search her room.

I agree with your post and it almost brought tears to my eyes... but i have to say that when you are scared to death for your child and you are standing there looking at an empty room in an empty house... not trying to make excuses ... but you just never know what fear will make you do.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

there are all kinds of distant. which is why you have to go with your gut. there's teenage moody distant and there's teetering on the edge of a cliff distant... and everything in between. thats when instinct and good judgement come in. sometimes you have to intervene... they may need you to help them help themselves.


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## momma4fun (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
there are all kinds of distant. which is why you have to go with your gut. there's teenage moody distant and there's teetering on the edge of a cliff distant... and everything in between. thats when instinct and good judgement come in. sometimes you have to intervene... they may need you to help them help themselves.

i agree, but won't be taking privacy away as a preventitive measure, or won't use it as my first means to understanding my teen


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
It obviously varies from person to person, but loss of trust isn't a short term issue with me. It doesn't matter who it is. Once someone has proved that I can't trust them (by snooping my room, for example), I don't trust them. In the very few instances where I've patched things back up to some degree, it's still nothing at all like it was prior to the trust being damaged.

I think that if things had gotten to the point where I felt that I had to investigate my child's goings on, trust would have already been broken--on their part.

I suppose I'm a little leery of making my parenting decisions primarily on how it might affect my children's feelings towards me at that time. I see a lot of people here operanting from the base assumption that parental intentions are automatically bad and suspect (probably reasonably learned for most of us). However, I work very very hard to keep my motivations and intentions "right", going against childhood learning and instinct to do so. Therefore, I assume that IF I've reached that point that this kind of invasive intervention is necessary that frankly the situation is such that trust has already been broken intentionally or not and things will by defnintion never be the same.

If my child has an episode of serious mental illness, nothing will ever be the same, though I would hope that with treatment or reconfiguring our lives things will improve. If my child has an addiction, our lives and relationship will never be the "same". If I discover that my child has been compulsively lying, our relationship will never be the same. Doesn't mean I don't love them, doesn't mean that we can't work through it. But some fights/words/actions leave scars, and parents aren't the only ones who are able to do that.

This is why I guess I don't understand the implication that if you don't intervene in a given specific way that the relationship is somehow preserved. I don't think it is, because in order for someone like me to consider something invasive damage has a;ready occured and I sense danger. At that point, the relationship is already altered (though my child might not be as pissed at me as they're about to be I guess) because of the level of alarm being triggered.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

If another adult breaks your trust, does that give you the right to do the same to them? If someone, say your neighbour, breaks into your house and looks through your financial documents to see what your up to does that give you the right to break into their house and look through their personal belonging?

For many people, myself included, it's much the same thing. All though we do reserve the right to look around her room if we have reason to believe DD is in danger, we also made it clear that it would take a lot for us to get to that point and so far she's come to us first. We hope to keep that level of trust. If she's hiding things from us, then it means she doesn't trust us to react in a respectful manner. I guess in a way, hiding things can be a sign the parents broke trust first in some way. I know it's not always the case, often times there are issues that are hidden because it means something is wrong on an emotional level. But my experience (and trust me I have a lot of personal experience in the area) is there is often signs left behind, either conciously or unconciously, that say "Help me!" In that case, the first line of action would be to talk. Honest talk to, not the "I feel something is wrong, is everything all right?" junk. Because that will just get "Everythings fine." But more of a "This is what I've noticed, and I'm worried that something is wrong. Can we talk about it please." sort of talk.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
If another adult breaks your trust, does that give you the right to do the same to them? If someone, say your neighbour, breaks into your house and looks through your financial documents to see what your up to does that give you the right to break into their house and look through their personal belonging?

For many people, myself included, it's much the same thing. All though we do reserve the right to look around her room if we have reason to believe DD is in danger, we also made it clear that it would take a lot for us to get to that point and so far she's come to us first. We hope to keep that level of trust. If she's hiding things from us, then it means she doesn't trust us to react in a respectful manner. I guess in a way, hiding things can be a sign the parents broke trust first in some way. I know it's not always the case, often times there are issues that are hidden because it means something is wrong on an emotional level. But my experience (and trust me I have a lot of personal experience in the area) is there is often signs left behind, either conciously or unconciously, that say "Help me!" In that case, the first line of action would be to talk. Honest talk to, not the "I feel something is wrong, is everything all right?" junk. Because that will just get "Everythings fine." But more of a "This is what I've noticed, and I'm worried that something is wrong. Can we talk about it please." sort of talk.









: surprise surprise


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
If another adult breaks your trust, does that give you the right to do the same to them? If someone, say your neighbour, breaks into your house and looks through your financial documents to see what your up to does that give you the right to break into their house and look through their personal belonging?

For many people, myself included, it's much the same thing. All though we do reserve the right to look around her room if we have reason to believe DD is in danger, we also made it clear that it would take a lot for us to get to that point and so far she's come to us first. We hope to keep that level of trust. If she's hiding things from us, then it means she doesn't trust us to react in a respectful manner. I guess in a way, hiding things can be a sign the parents broke trust first in some way. I know it's not always the case, often times there are issues that are hidden because it means something is wrong on an emotional level. But my experience (and trust me I have a lot of personal experience in the area) is there is often signs left behind, either conciously or unconciously, that say "Help me!" In that case, the first line of action would be to talk. Honest talk to, not the "I feel something is wrong, is everything all right?" junk. Because that will just get "Everythings fine." But more of a "This is what I've noticed, and I'm worried that something is wrong. Can we talk about it please." sort of talk.

Absolutely. Unfortunately for us, with attachment disorders, when you talk, you get _I don't know_ or outright lies in response. Sometimes the only thing left to do is walk right up to the stolen item and say _See? This is mine, it's in your room, you didn't ask me for it, end of discussion._

The first time we caught her stealing, dh and I were just talking to her in her room and he accidentally bumped into a hat on her shelf. It tumbled off and our stuff was underneath it.







That was when she was not getting up when her alarm went off in the morning and when ds would get in the shower she would suddenly need to use our bathroom. Now the rule is, she either gets up and pees before he showers, or she waits until he is done with his 10 minute shower. Our room is completely off limits to her until she's earned back our trust. This was about a year to a year and a half ago, iirc, and the last incident was about 2 months ago.

What's wrong? _Nothing._ Why are you doing this? _I don't know._ And on and on.

_If only_ talking worked. You really have no idea what you're going to have thrown your way until you're there.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
If another adult breaks your trust, does that give you the right to do the same to them? If someone, say your neighbour, breaks into your house and looks through your financial documents to see what your up to does that give you the right to break into their house and look through their personal belonging.

In a way. If my neighbor were to break into my house, I would call the police. They might very well indeed lose their freedom. In some states, breaking into someone's house might lead to the loss of your life, in a legally defensible way.

If anyone breaks my trust, there are consequences. For the most part, consequences for adults and children are different. Does anyone think that they should be the same? I hope not.

It makes me really sad though to see so much blaming the parent here. Believe it or not, not everything a child decides to do is the fault of the parent. And this is theoretical here. So you are saying *to parenst here* that if you contemplate doing this, then it was probably your fault in the first place.


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## momma4fun (Jan 23, 2007)

i'm not sure i understand the concept of trust in a parent teen relationship.

i'm not sure whta my expectations of my teens will be

i know i'm going to trust that they're gonna make mistakes

sometimes i'm too critical of myself, but in a situation where my kid was stealing from me and lying from me, i think the biggest thing that would come up in my mind would be to figure out where i didn't set a good enough example that money wasn't something worth working for.

i know i'm mostly talking out of my A because i don't have teens, yet, but i do have teen siblings at home with whom i have very close relationships, and it's kind of a reoccuring theme in my experience that parents get their feelings hurt by their teens which renders them too subjective to deal with the situation in a way that the kid still feels unconditionally loved.

i want my kids to trust me. i don't think they can trust me if i have all these high expectations of trust from them. it seems like when i have feelings of trust towards my kids, it's because i know where they are at and what motivates them. and again, i will trust that they are going to make mistakes.

EDIT: bigeyes, I'm so not picking on you, just thinking out an example like yours


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## knitterred (Nov 17, 2008)

I do have a 15 year old son, and unfortunatly trouble is his middle name. i have never peeped through his journals or personla writing, and never would. EVER. now, im not going to say Ive never looked around his room abit, it is after all my job to keep him safe (flame away, my house, my child, and yes his safety is my responsiblity) But really, it seems to me reading a diary is just plain snooponess... if your children are doing something that would harm them, you should be aware enough as a parent to know, and snooping in a diary shouldnt be the way you keep tabs on your children imo...


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
If another adult breaks your trust, does that give you the right to do the same to them? If someone, say your neighbour, breaks into your house and looks through your financial documents to see what your up to does that give you the right to break into their house and look through their personal belonging?

For many people, myself included, it's much the same thing. All though we do reserve the right to look around her room if we have reason to believe DD is in danger, we also made it clear that it would take a lot for us to get to that point and so far she's come to us first. We hope to keep that level of trust. If she's hiding things from us, then it means she doesn't trust us to react in a respectful manner. I guess in a way, hiding things can be a sign the parents broke trust first in some way. I know it's not always the case, often times there are issues that are hidden because it means something is wrong on an emotional level. But my experience (and trust me I have a lot of personal experience in the area) is there is often signs left behind, either conciously or unconciously, that say "Help me!" In that case, the first line of action would be to talk. Honest talk to, not the "I feel something is wrong, is everything all right?" junk. Because that will just get "Everythings fine." But more of a "This is what I've noticed, and I'm worried that something is wrong. Can we talk about it please." sort of talk.

I do agree with this, but on the other hand I have some very good friends with teenagers, and they've had talks like that where the teen simply doesn't talk, and they're faced with potential runaway situations and things and they have snooped, and from where I'm sitting with my sweet 6-year-old I'm in no position to judge. If I had a child going through some of the things some friends' kids have gone through, I'd do whatever it took to keep them safe. And these friends are good, loving, respectful parents. Teens of good parents do incredibly self-destructive things sometimes too.


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## momz3 (May 1, 2006)

Did anyone hear about that girl in Chicago? With her mom and myspace?


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## grniys (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momz3* 
Did anyone hear about that girl in Chicago? With her mom and myspace?

No, I haven't. What happened?


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## momz3 (May 1, 2006)

I only caught a glimpse of it on the news

http://www.parentdish.com/2007/11/18...-over-myspace/

The mom of a former friend got involved and created a fake myspace to c what she was saying about her daughter...and the result was tragic


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## amydidit (Jan 21, 2005)

That really is so terrible.







I hope they can find some obscure law to class that under and find some justice. Doesn't sound like it though.

But, I don't see how that is related to this discussion? That wasn't a parent snooping.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amydidit* 
But, I don't see how that is related to this discussion? That wasn't a parent snooping.

No, but it would be an argument in favor of having your child's passwords, instead of just being on their Friend list on sites like this, and email/IM....if you're just their friend, you probably can't see what's on *their* friend's pages...whereas if you have their password, you can see exactly what they see. If I logged onto my 13-yo's account to do a spot check and saw a nasty message like the fake kid's account left in the story, I would have been able to talk to her, and try ot help her do something about it...not that it would have definitely saved her, but it might have. My thoughts on the mom who started the whole thing....I can't even compose a coherent sentence to express my outrage.

Reading some of the more recent posts - I would DEFINITELY be trying to talk to my kids, engage them, figure out what was wrong and how I or someone else could help them if I saw them acting differently/worrisomely....but sometimes kids just won't talk, or will deny anything is wrong even though you know something is wrong. And you can't really MAKE a child tell you something (well, I mean you can, but not by using any method that I would want to) - heck, my almost 5 yo sometimes doesn't want to tell me what's going on when he's sad or mad, and I know we have a close, attached relationship - and he's ONLY 5...it's just his personality. I would bet that almost every person here who has said they would snoop/monitor if they felt they needed to would obviously also be talking to their child before it got to that point, and trying to help them first, doing whatever they could to help their child. HOWEVER...if your child won't talk to you, or anyone else, and you think they're in trouble, your options become significantly more limited, and significantly less pleasant.


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## momz3 (May 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
No, but it would be an argument in favor of having your child's passwords, instead of just being on their Friend list on sites like this, and email/IM....if you're just their friend, you probably can't see what's on *their* friend's pages...whereas if you have their password, you can see exactly what they see. If I logged onto my 13-yo's account to do a spot check and saw a nasty message like the fake kid's account left in the story, I would have been able to talk to her, and try ot help her do something about it...not that it would have definitely saved her, but it might have. My thoughts on the mom who started the whole thing....I can't even compose a coherent sentence to express my outrage.

Reading some of the more recent posts - I would DEFINITELY be trying to talk to my kids, engage them, figure out what was wrong and how I or someone else could help them if I saw them acting differently/worrisomely....but sometimes kids just won't talk, or will deny anything is wrong even though you know something is wrong. And you can't really MAKE a child tell you something (well, I mean you can, but not by using any method that I would want to) - heck, my almost 5 yo sometimes doesn't want to tell me what's going on when he's sad or mad, and I know we have a close, attached relationship - and he's ONLY 5...it's just his personality. I would bet that almost every person here who has said they would snoop/monitor if they felt they needed to would obviously also be talking to their child before it got to that point, and trying to help them first, doing whatever they could to help their child. HOWEVER...if your child won't talk to you, or anyone else, and you think they're in trouble, your options become significantly more limited, and significantly less pleasant.

thats what I was trying to say. thanks!


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## MCR (Nov 20, 2001)

As a mother with teens. Yes I would do whatever I felt necessary to keep my kids safe.
Sometimes they don't give you reason, but you have a gut feeling you need to check, so I will check. I ask them to show me, I don't snoop. I used to see Ds contacts on facebook, I aslo had him show me who he talkked to on MSN mesenger. Not really secrets seeing the only computer with internet is in the living room next to where I sit, but still, we've done the talks and given them a good foundation and I hope they make good decisions. But when that gut feeling gets me, I check.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
No, but it would be an argument in favor of having your child's passwords, instead of just being on their Friend list on sites like this, and email/IM....if you're just their friend, you probably can't see what's on *their* friend's pages...whereas if you have their password, you can see exactly what they see. If I logged onto my 13-yo's account to do a spot check and saw a nasty message like the fake kid's account left in the story, I would have been able to talk to her, and try ot help her do something about it...not that it would have definitely saved her, but it might have. My thoughts on the mom who started the whole thing....I can't even compose a coherent sentence to express my outrage.

I agree with everyone that there might be situations where I would change my mind, but I guess my base feeling is that... I don't expect to hear every single bad thing said to my child at school. I'm not convinced that just because I *can* see it online, I'm justified in snooping around to do so.

To me this is not a MySpace story so much as a bullying story. I think the media get a lot of mileage out of their presentation of these issues.

I can see having clear rules for Internet use.


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## amydidit (Jan 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
No, but it would be an argument in favor of having your child's passwords, instead of just being on their Friend list on sites like this, and email/IM....if you're just their friend, you probably can't see what's on *their* friend's pages...whereas if you have their password, you can see exactly what they see. If I logged onto my 13-yo's account to do a spot check and saw a nasty message like the fake kid's account left in the story, I would have been able to talk to her, and try ot help her do something about it...not that it would have definitely saved her, but it might have. My thoughts on the mom who started the whole thing....I can't even compose a coherent sentence to express my outrage.

Reading some of the more recent posts - I would DEFINITELY be trying to talk to my kids, engage them, figure out what was wrong and how I or someone else could help them if I saw them acting differently/worrisomely....but sometimes kids just won't talk, or will deny anything is wrong even though you know something is wrong. And you can't really MAKE a child tell you something (well, I mean you can, but not by using any method that I would want to) - heck, my almost 5 yo sometimes doesn't want to tell me what's going on when he's sad or mad, and I know we have a close, attached relationship - and he's ONLY 5...it's just his personality. I would bet that almost every person here who has said they would snoop/monitor if they felt they needed to would obviously also be talking to their child before it got to that point, and trying to help them first, doing whatever they could to help their child. HOWEVER...if your child won't talk to you, or anyone else, and you think they're in trouble, your options become significantly more limited, and significantly less pleasant.

Okay, yes, it definitely is a good example of when *snooping* (seriously, I don't like that word and don't think it's appropriate when you DC KNOWS you do it) could have possibly prevented this terrible outcome.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma4fun* 

sometimes i'm too critical of myself, but in a situation where my kid was stealing from me and lying from me, i think the biggest thing that would come up in my mind would be to figure out where i didn't set a good enough example that money wasn't something worth working for.

EDIT: bigeyes, I'm so not picking on you, just thinking out an example like yours

It was nerve wracking. You do ask yourself what makes them do things like that, _especially_ when all you get from them is _I don't know_ or lies when you ask them. We spent a year or so with shrinks who only made the situation worse, we tried everything we could think of. Unfortunately, we had to become a lot more authoritarian than we like, and she has to be treated like she's much younger than she is because psychologically she _is._ The right therapist was a godsend.

In her case it's mostly a passive-aggressive thing. She gets mad, she steals something to get revenge. She gets caught, she deliberately does something to annoy someone else. She has to do something she doesn't particularly want to do, she drags it out as long as possible to make everyone have to wait on her and possibly not get to do something they want to do. It's a control issue, as in _I don't need parents and I will not do anything I don't want to do. If I have to contribute in any way, I will make the rest of you miserable._ For as long as I've known her, whenever she opens or unwraps something, she drops the trash wherever she is, right on the floor. I don't have an explanation for that one at all, but she sweeps the floor _a lot_ because it's the only natural consequence we can think of for it.







:

It's _loads_ of fun.







After almost 4 years of pulling my hair out I finally learned my mantra; _It's not my problem, it's your problem._ If she lies to me and says she emptied her pockets before putting her clothes in the hamper, when I start to load the laundry, her favorite jeans don't get washed in that load. Not _my_ problem, wear something else. If she lies to me about doing her homework, her teacher calls me to let me know she didn't follow directions and she gives her a make-up assignment to do over the weekend instead of watching a movie. Not _my_ problem, you should have done it the first time. We live in the tropics, so bugs can be a problem if you let them...she piled candy wrappers in drawers, on her closet floor, behind furniture, so now she has to keep gum and any candy she gets at Christmas/Halloween or as a treat in a tin in the kitchen where we can supervise and be sure the wrapper gets thrown away.







It all feels very Gestapo-like, but the alternative is to live in a pig-sty and/or constantly pick up after her, which I _am not_ going to do.

DS has the same kind of thing, though. If he doesn't empty his pockets, his favorite clothing doesn't get washed, and he's been grounded from all things electronic a few times. The difference is, he learns from a mistake and moves on, where dsd repeats the same mistake and seemingly doesn't make the connection between actions and consequences, which is all part of an attachment disorder. All you can do is repeat repeat repeat and _hope_ it sinks in.

I drove myself nuts trying to figure this one out with logic. There is no logic when you're dealing with an attachment disorder, that's the whole point. No cause and effect thinking, no learning from mistakes, no logic, lying about stuff that doesn't matter, bizarre behavior that drives you batty while you try to figure out why _nothing works._

Then you find a therapist who _actually knows what they're doing_ and it's _almost_ magical. This has been the most frustrating, heartbreaking journey...dsd has endured so much weirdness and insanity in her short life and is so not to blame for the way she is, but it doesn't make it any less frustrating to deal with on a day to day basis to know that. She's making so much progress, but it's always going to be stressful feeling like we're forced to maintain such strict control over her environment. I don't _like_ it, but I can't argue with the results. I enjoyed parenting so much more when I was able to be relaxed and a bit more permissive, but the current needs of our family won't allow for that. As much as I _don't_ like having to question every little thing I do and having to plan out every move I make as a parent, I _do_ enjoy the relative peace we have in the household since we implemented the new system. I feel like the warden, but I'm not constantly on edge or simmering with rage, and she's definitely doing much better, so I have to live with that and accept it for what it is. And hope when she's older we can relax the rules some.







:

I remember my mom digging through my trash can in my room for no reason at all, just being nosy, and it infuriated me....so having to be all over dsd is kind of a pain to me now.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *H & J's Mom* 
I truly hope there is never a need. If I suspected a dangerous issue I think I would do what was necessary at the time but other than that - No Way.

I think to snoop and sneak around would only break the trust with my kids that I've worked very hard to establish.

There are things that kids don't want to talk to parents about and they have the right to their own private and personal thoughts. Unless there is a serious concern, I just could not justify invading someone's thoughts and privacy like that.

I can't agree with the my house and the no right to privacy arguments. I might make the house payments but it is our family's home &#8230; everyone should feel secure and comfortable in their own home.

i totally agree with this.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

i was a moody teen. not suicidal or into drugs but definitely in a funk. i didn't want my parents help on it. instead, i spent a lot of time talking to my friends.

to have my parents invade my privacy and snoop in my room and bring up dumb crushes or angry thoughts i wrote in a diary would have created more drama in my life not less.

if your kid is really going off the deep end then room snooping/diary reading/key stroke detecting seems to be a bit too little, too late to be honest.

and if they're not going off the deep end and you are paying attention to their behaviors and friends and you have a good relationship with them why do it?


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 

if your kid is really going off the deep end then room snooping/diary reading/key stroke detecting seems to be a bit too little, too late to be honest.

and if they're not going off the deep end and you are paying attention to their behaviors and friends and you have a good relationship with them why do it?

exactly


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

So if your child were going off the deep end, you'd say, "Oh well, it's too late anyway?" If I didn't know a couple of parents with teens who had issues, I'd probably say that too, but having seen people go through this, I know I can't predict what I'd do.


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## accountclosed2 (May 28, 2007)

Writing was my outlet as a teen. It was really how I survived those awful years, by writing out all the pain, it just helped me cope. There was no way I could have talked to my parents or friends about any of what I wrote, I just wouldn't have been able to cope with the talk. ( I did talk to my counsellor in my late teens, she was really good)

If I hadn't felt safe enough to write things down privately, and in the moment when I felt my world had ended, knowing NO-ONE would ever read it, well, I don't think I would have had another way out than killing myself. I felt trapped enough as it was (without not having that outlet, or having to talk about things tht just hurt to much to speak about).


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
I think that if things had gotten to the point where I felt that I had to investigate my child's goings on, trust would have already been broken--on their part.

I suppose I'm a little leery of making my parenting decisions primarily on how it might affect my children's feelings towards me at that time.

Okay. I'm not sure what this has to do with my post. I'm talking about long-term damage to the relationship, to the point where the main figure of authority in the teens life is someone they don't trust - ever again. I'm not talking about a teenage, hormone-fuelled "you're wrecking my life", followed by stamping off to their room to sulk. I'm talking about losing your authority, in a very real sense, because your teen now sees you as not just an authority figure, but as an actual _enemy_. How do you expect to parent effectively if you're the enemy?

Quote:

I see a lot of people here operanting from the base assumption that parental intentions are automatically bad and suspect (probably reasonably learned for most of us). However, I work very very hard to keep my motivations and intentions "right", going against childhood learning and instinct to do so. Therefore, I assume that IF I've reached that point that this kind of invasive intervention is necessary that frankly the situation is such that trust has already been broken intentionally or not and things will by defnintion never be the same.
I don't know if you're talking about my posts or not. I don't think parents who snoop always have bad intentions (I don't think they always have good intentions, either). What I do think, based on watching this play out many times from both sides (teenaged friends when I was younger, and teens I've seen as I've become an adult), is that snooping with cause doesn't help as often as people seem to think, and snooping just as a...safety measure??...creates huge problems.

Quote:

This is why I guess I don't understand the implication that if you don't intervene in a given specific way that the relationship is somehow preserved. I don't think it is, because in order for someone like me to consider something invasive damage has a;ready occured and I sense danger. At that point, the relationship is already altered (though my child might not be as pissed at me as they're about to be I guess) because of the level of alarm being triggered.
If I'm troubled and going through a bunch of crap in my life (which has certainly happened more than once), it obviously alters my relationships with those around me. For one of those people to then say, "okay - you're altering our relationship, so I can violate your privacy" doesn't follow in any way. In any case, I never said that the relationship would necessarily be preserved if a parent doesn't snoop. What I said is that, for some personalities, the relationship _will_ be damaged, possibly destroyed, by snooping, even if it would have otherwise survived. My depressive episodes and other issues had a peripheral effect on my relationship with my parents (far more directly affected my education and peer relationships). They were my safety net. Had they chosen to invade my privacy, the _only safe place_ I had would have been gone. I'm not talking about "altering the relationship". I'm talking about hurting the child.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I do agree with this, but on the other hand I have some very good friends with teenagers, and they've had talks like that where the teen simply doesn't talk, and they're faced with potential runaway situations and things and they have snooped, and from where I'm sitting with my sweet 6-year-old I'm in no position to judge. If I had a child going through some of the things some friends' kids have gone through, I'd do whatever it took to keep them safe. And these friends are good, loving, respectful parents. Teens of good parents do incredibly self-destructive things sometimes too.

I understand that. Quite a bit. I had a butt load of issues when I was a teen. My dad managed to help me without snooping.


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
So if your child were going off the deep end, you'd say, "Oh well, it's too late anyway?" If I didn't know a couple of parents with teens who had issues, I'd probably say that too, but having seen people go through this, I know I can't predict what I'd do.

No, the point is that if your child is going off the deep end, its too late to start snooping ... what good is it going to do? There are other ways, better ways to manage this - I am one of the parents who had teens with issues - and I snooped, it did not give me any information... in fact I found nothing ... it was a huge mistake in my opinion, and the damage it could have caused if she ever found out? Start counseling, start UA'a, move to the Netherlands if you have to ... snooping is just not worth it...

If you must see a diary.. ask your teen if you can look at it with them, or write something to you...I saw a great idea on this board once about a journal that mother and daughter kept and wrote back and forth to each other ... but that's really another subject..


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Well I'm not talking just "issues". One friend's daughter took up (she thought but wasn't sure) with an older guy who (she thought) was making meth, and she was afraid her daughter was planning to run away with him. If she hadn't snooped her daughter might have run off with him and she might not have known where they'd gone.

I have probably said in the past I would never snoop, but since then I've seen families in situations I've never imagined. I reserve judgment at this point.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

What would she have done if she had snooped and not found anything? Would she have been relieved and went about her business? I imagine she still would have taken action.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I don't imagine I would snoop. I don't see how an unschooled child of mama who has spent every single waking moment practically with her since birth could, I dunno, take up a crack habit or something without me being clued in. I would imagine if that were the case I would send her to rehab and get her an agent because that would be an academy award winning performance.

My point is, I think that if you are an attached, aware, involved parent who is involved in the goings on of your child's life -- you don't need to snoop. I mean, I know what time my kid is going to poop by an expression on her face 2 hours beforehand that no one else would even pick up. I know my kid. I am not saying we will always have such intimacy







but I do hope and trust that we will have the kind of relationship where I would suspect something was amiss.

My parents pretended to care about stuff like that but the fact is, they didn't know any of my friends, didn't bother to know where I was going, didn't sit down with me to ask how I was feeling, how I was doing, etc They sort of took the "as long as we all make it out of this alive we are fine" approach -- dd and I already have a different dynamic. She knows I care about her thoughts and feelings and that she has immense value in this home. It doesn't mean I think she will be some perfect angel who never makes a choice that is unwise, but I do trust she won't be mixing up crystal meth in her bedroom either.

I will never say never, but I certainly don't believe I will ever make a practice of snooping -- especially journals and the like which I believe are extremely private. On the other hand, I don't think it is inappropriate to glance in her bedroom every now and again. My parents I don't think opened my bedroom door for abouut 4 years and I was sneaking boys in, sneaking out and night, smoking pot in my closet and all kinds of other things you don't want your teenager doing.

There is a difference between respecting privacy and just sort of not giving a crap and calling it trust







I hope to trust and respect dd but let her know that I do care and plan to be involved in the goings on of her life until she reaches a legal age (and hopefully beyond if she allows).


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
What would she have done if she had snooped and not found anything? Would she have been relieved and went about her business? I imagine she still would have taken action.

Well she put her daughter in an in-house drug treatment center, which I'm guessing she would have done anyway. But she snooped to find out where this guy would have run off with her daughter so that if her daughter at some point ran away with him she'd know where to look.

edited to add - She also found out the guy's real age. She thought he was three years older than her daughter, but found out in the diary he was really five years older, which made the relationship statutory rape, and gave her a legal way to keep him away from her.


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

the entire concept that children deserve "privacy" is completely just...well, wrong in my opinion. You can have privacy when you are grown. Until then....dh and I would do anything we felt necesary.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bobandjess99* 
the entire concept that children deserve "privacy" is completely just...well, wrong in my opinion. You can have privacy when you are grown. Until then....dh and I would do anything we felt necesary.

Well that I do disagree with. Even now, at 6, I give my daughter as much privacy as she feels she needs. As a teen it's likely she'll need more, and that's fine with me. I'd have to be in pretty darn desperate straits to snoop, but I can't rule it out and say I never would based on what I've seen other parents deal with. If I was afraid my daughter was going to run away with a drug dealer, I would snoop to get as much information as I could in case she ever disappeared. Short of something along those lines, though . . . I wouldn't snoop over sex, drug use (if I thought she needed treatment, she'd get it regardless of what her diary said), anything like that. It would take a situation where I was afraid her life was in danger. It doesn't seem likely that a situation like that would ever come up though. I hope!


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bobandjess99* 
the entire concept that children deserve "privacy" is completely just...well, wrong in my opinion. You can have privacy when you are grown. Until then....dh and I would do anything we felt necesary.

I am quoting you 'cause your post is last but I have seen this expressed in this thread and even though I totally get that everyone makes their own decisions and truly do respect that... I have such a visceral reaction to it!

I wasn't afforded a lot of privacy growing up in some ways (although I did in the sense that no one read my diaries or searched my room) and I grew up with very poor boundaries... and was a victim of incest (extended family). Lack of privacy is one of the ways that abusers groom their victims.

I freely admit this experience puts me squarely on the other side of the fence, and my husband feels the same way. For myself and for him, it's not a question of needing to hide things or lack of rules/boundaries. It is, however, about respecting where the rights of others end and the rights of the individual begin, in a step by step, appropriate way.

At 3, my son has the right to go to the bathroom with the door shut if he wants. I imagine one day he will want the space to hide gifts for others; explore his body and his sexuality; record his hopes, thoughts and dreams; hold private conversations with his friends; and perhaps explore interests we don't share.

I know that there are situations (like the attachment disorder one explained in this thread, or addiction) where the ground rules need to change. But I find it so sad that parents are living in enough fear to feel that they have to go to what I perceive as such extreme lengths as a starting point.

And to be honest I do worry about young adults who will eventually leave home and live in various situations, like dorms and shared apartments and so on, who haven't had an opportunity to set and enforce their own personal boundaries. It can be a hard lesson to learn in a mere year or two.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Lack of privacy, and the fact that dsd knew that her stepdad and mom could come in any minute and look at anything in her room was one of the pieces of the puzzle that brought about her moving to our house.







I hope to never create an atmosphere in the house where kids feel unwelcome, disrespected, and as if they have no rights.

I feel very sad for the kids that have no where to go. I crave privacy, and would feel violated if y parents told me I had no right to it.







:

All that being said - I don't judge a desparate parent that is trying to save a child that they think is in danger. I understand difficult teenage years, we are there, we are taking it day by day. We talk a lot. A lot. Did I say a lot? She doesn't always agree with what we have to say, she seems absent minded, and set to make her own choices. But she talks about things (whether we like eharing that she has a crush on a boy that already has a girlfriend, or not), and that's in itself is priceless. We can offer guidance, and opinion that she chose to hear, will she listen? I don't know, but I doubt she'd listen better if we snooped...

I guess I do pass judgement when a parent does it routinely, especially if they use what they find to shame and punish the child. It just something very foreign to me.

I want her to be okay, I want her to be happy. It's such a tough line to walk.. But spying on your kid, or saying they don't deserve privacy? Ugh.. I don't know. Neither sounds like a viable parenting choice to me.

The amount of resentment towards the spying parents in these responses kind of proves the point. To the few that were able to save a child because of spying - I don't think it was because of routine searches, but rather out of clear signs of danger. That's on a different level for me, kwim?

I rumbled on... Sorry.


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## Phoenix~Mama (Dec 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bobandjess99* 
the entire concept that children deserve "privacy" is completely just...well, wrong in my opinion. You can have privacy when you are grown. Until then....dh and I would do anything we felt necesary.


I just can't even fathom this mind set... It scares me a lot, honestly.

Most "kids" go away to college these days... you (collective you) let loose a person who has been made to feel totally insecure and that they do not deserve any kind of privacy out into the real world... I think they will be facing some scary, scary situations and not have learned to stand up for themselves and any kind of independance, and they will find themselves into dire troubles that you (again collective you, not pointing at anyone in general, just giving my own opinion) will not be able to snoop for because they are away from home... then what?

This just blows my mind and I think would totally totally damage the child.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I agree. I think it is so harmful and detrimental to proper adolescent development.


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

I feel kids have a privacy right that ought to be protected. It bothers me how sometimes we treat kids like they aren't people yet. Well, they are. Not as mature or responsible as grown-ups, but people with human rights, too. I remember being unhappy that I was treated like a lesser person, not allowed to vote, etc. when I had thoughts and opinions of my own.

I would not violate my kids' privacy unless I felt it was necessary. If I was really concerned about my child, I might read something personal that they would not want me to know about. If I found something that really worried me, I would try to work on the issue without letting my child know that I had snooped. And I would never, ever blame or punish for something I found out that I wasn't supposed to know about.

My parents promised to respect my privacy when I was 18 and took a 5-wk trip. My mom PROMISED. She broke that promise, and it's been an issue ever since. It was an affirmation that I couldn't trust her, and she didn't trust me.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I am quoting you 'cause your post is last but I have seen this expressed in this thread and even though I totally get that everyone makes their own decisions and truly do respect that... I have such a visceral reaction to it!

I wasn't afforded a lot of privacy growing up in some ways (although I did in the sense that no one read my diaries or searched my room) and I grew up with very poor boundaries... and was a victim of incest (extended family). Lack of privacy is one of the ways that abusers groom their victims.

I freely admit this experience puts me squarely on the other side of the fence, and my husband feels the same way. For myself and for him, it's not a question of needing to hide things or lack of rules/boundaries. It is, however, about respecting where the rights of others end and the rights of the individual begin, in a step by step, appropriate way.

At 3, my son has the right to go to the bathroom with the door shut if he wants. I imagine one day he will want the space to hide gifts for others; explore his body and his sexuality; record his hopes, thoughts and dreams; hold private conversations with his friends; and perhaps explore interests we don't share.

I know that there are situations (like the attachment disorder one explained in this thread, or addiction) where the ground rules need to change. But I find it so sad that parents are living in enough fear to feel that they have to go to what I perceive as such extreme lengths as a starting point.

And to be honest I do worry about young adults who will eventually leave home and live in various situations, like dorms and shared apartments and so on, who haven't had an opportunity to set and enforce their own personal boundaries. It can be a hard lesson to learn in a mere year or two.

Thank you. I've been trying to figure out why I was so disturbed by having to cross boundaries with my dsd. That cleared it up for me.


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## rocketgirl96 (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JSMa* 
I just can't even fathom this mind set... It scares me a lot, honestly.

Most "kids" go away to college these days... you let loose a person who has been made to feel totally insecure and that they do not deserve any kind of privacy out into the real world... I think they will be facing some scary, scary situations and not have learned to stand up for themselves and any kind of independance, and they will find themselves into dire troubles that you will not be able to snoop for because they are away from home... then what?

This just blows my mind and I think would totally totally damage the child.









I find this offensive really. You're basically judging the other parent like you know for sure that because some level of privacy was not adhered to that that in itself would put a child in danger. You can't know how a child is going to turn out for sure. We all do the best we can and we all have different parenting styles. I'm sure there will be some children whose privacy was very well respected that are going to have trouble when going off to college and vice versa. All we can really do is take it one step at a time and Never say Never is one hard lesson to learn.

I did not have much privacy at home and I believe I'm just fine. Never did drugs, never had teen sex (heck I waited until I met my husband at the ripe old age of 29), graduated with honors as an engineer, etc....
My life turned out just fine and I never felt violated because of the privacy issue. And I was always able to discern lack of privacy from family members versus my right to privacy by someone outside the family. My parents always made it clear that family is family. Family members get different privileges than friends or acquaintances. I always had boundaries when it came to friends. Also, the lack of privacy was a two way street when I was growing up. To this day, I don't know how my younger sisters got conceived.









I just feel there is a lot of judgement on this thread that doesn't need to be there. No one has a crystal ball to see how children will turn out in the future.

Christine


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

would you ever take your childs bedroom door off?


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## Phoenix~Mama (Dec 24, 2007)

Edited my post to put in collective you... wasn't trying to single anyone out... just giving my opinion... not really a judgement, but I seriously cannot wrap my mind around how a human can grow up being told they have no right to privacy and be able to operate in a functional way as an adult.

This is just really confusing to me to see here especially because of the natural family living aspect and how we have an entire forum dedicated to Gentle Discipline and how children should be respected and treated as equals... but there have been so many posts on here saying children do not deserve privacy... would that not make them less of a person, and therefore not respected?? Does that not go against the whole atmosphere that we are trying to strive for being part of this natural family living board, to create an equal and respectful environment for our children?

Or am I totally missing something here....


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I have no problem owning judgement when I think something is wrong, and I think treating children like that is wrong.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

disclaimer: this is not necessarily what will happen .. but its one of the possibilities

if you teach your child not to expect privacy they wont expect privacy. and that wont change when they leave your house. they will want privacy, that is a normal part of being a human.. but since those boundaries have never been respected they will not expect people to respect them.

you may be searching there room, recording key strokes, and reading their diary (which btw is so inappropriate i cant even fathom it) and they may seem small to you in the long run.. but these are how children learn to expect people to respect their boundaries .. emotional and physical. if they do not learn that then when someone tries to violate their privacy in some other way they will not be surprised and they will not think they have any right to stop them. even if you tell them all about it actions speak louder then words.. the feelings they have when their need for privacy is ignored and the lessons they learn from that will not be easily forgotten.

if you don't treat you kids like they are people who deserve respect, privacy, consideration etc. how are they going to learn that they deserve those things? if you treat your child like they are less then you... they will learn to believe it.

not all kids marry someone like their parents... but would you want your kid to marry someone who went through their things, recorded their conversations, and read their mail? all in the name of making sure they arent cheating?


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## rocketgirl96 (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JSMa* 
how children should be respected and treated as equals... but there have been so many posts on here saying children do not deserve privacy... would that not make them less of a person, and therefore not respected?? Does that not go against the whole atmosphere that we are trying to strive for being part of this natural family living board, to create an equal and respectful environment for our children?

Or am I totally missing something here....

I guess what I was trying to say is that it is possible to raise a child to have respect for their privacy and understand boundaries even if the home environment is such that there is little expectation of privacy for anyone. My parents were very good at differentiating between family and others. So, therefore I had very good boundaries while in college and with roommates. I also don't think that not giving a child privacy goes against creating an equal and respectful environment for them. If the family environment is such that there is really not the much privacy for adults or children, then the children are not getting treated that much differently than the adults. Does that make sense? Obviously, the adults might have a little bit more privacy but I see that as just a by-product of the parent-child relationship. Even within Gentle Disclipline there are times when children are just not equal to adults. For example, children often have less freedom than adults just due to the nature of being a child. I just don't think that lack of privacy necessarily equals a boundary-less child that is going to get into serious trouble.

Christine


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i think it would be hard for the children and adults to equally have no privacy ... nor do i think it would be a good idea if it weren't hard.

general you: are you going to let your child have your passwords on the internet? are they going to be allowed to go into your room and go through your things? will they be given access to the information recorded from the key strokes? will they be allowed to listen to your conversations with other people... on the other end of the phone perhaps?

and privacy is one of the areas i wouldn't differentiate family on. children are violated by family members all the time. I want my child to expect respect and expect their boundaries be respected by all people ... including family members. Just like i would never teach my children to listen to adults just b/c they are adults. family members nor adults get a free pass on respecting one's privacy and boundaries.


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## rocketgirl96 (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
would you ever take your childs bedroom door off?

I'm not sure who this question was directed to, but I'll answer anyway. If there is a door to the parent's room, then I think a child should have a bedroom door. However, I personally do not like locks on anyone's doors.

Christine


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rocketgirl96* 
I'm not sure who this question was directed to, but I'll answer anyway. If there is a door to the parent's room, then I think a child should have a bedroom door. However, I personally do not like locks on anyone's doors.

Christine

not you just in general. i asked because my friends parents did this. so i wondered if it was common.


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## rocketgirl96 (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
Just like i would never teach my children to listen to adults just b/c they are adults.

This might be where cultural differences kick in. In the Asian culture, adults are always to be respected and listened to. That is how I was brought up. But my Mom always made a point to tell me if anyone did something that I felt was "wrong" or touched me inappropriately that I should tell her. When I use the term "family" in previous posts, I am referring to immediate family only - the people that live in your house. I know that sometimes bad things happen in immediate families too but I don't think you can live your life based on that fear. I would think that you would trust those in your immediate family to not overstep those boundaries. This is very interesting because I never thought about the whole cultural aspect of this. I see now that I will have to be very vigilant about explaining to my child when adults overstep their boundaries.

Christine


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## amydidit (Jan 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
not you just in general. i asked because my friends parents did this. so i wondered if it was common.

I know someone who did this too because their child was suicidal but all the local programs were full, so they had to monitor her at home.

As for us, no we wouldn't remove a child's door. But my DD's don't have locks on their doors. We currently do, but when we can afford it we're switching the knob for one without a lock.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bigeyes* 
Thank you. I've been trying to figure out why I was so disturbed by having to cross boundaries with my dsd. That cleared it up for me.









bigeyes: You're in a very difficult situation. Dealing with an attachment disorder is hardcore. As highly as I value and respect privacy and boundaries, there are definitely some situations where normal rules don't apply. It sounds like you're having some success with your dsd, which is really great news. I remember reading one of your posts about her a long time ago, and wondering if there was any hope at all.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rocketgirl96* 
However, I personally do not like locks on anyone's doors.

I can't imagine not having a lock on my door with small kids in the house. The kids are free to come into our room whenever they want...but we lock the door if we're having sex, because they're really quiet, and I don't want them walking in on us. With a lock, they have to knock and wait a minute. Mind you, ds1 also has a lock on his door, but dh and I have a key. The lock is there to keep his younger siblings out.

1littlebit, you said:

Quote:

if you teach your child not to expect privacy they wont expect privacy. and that wont change when they leave your house. they will want privacy, that is a normal part of being a human.. but since those boundaries have never been respected they will not expect people to respect them.
I agree. I realize that with parents who practice AP and GD, things will be somewhat different, but I can't quite picture such a home life. I do know that I have two friends whose moms gave them no privacy (one read her dd's diary at least once - the other would do things like go through her 20+ year old dd's purse, take her car key and "borrow" her car without permission). Both of them have had a pattern of abusive relationships, and have only finally found their ways out in their late 30s, early 40s. I've seen similar patterns before, but both these women are longterm friends, so I've had a much better look at the dynamics. They both _expected_ people to invade their privacy, disregard their boundaries, etc. and such behaviour sent up no warning flags at all.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bobandjess99* 
the entire concept that children deserve "privacy" is completely just...well, wrong in my opinion. You can have privacy when you are grown. Until then....dh and I would do anything we felt necesary.

I totally disagree with this. Everyone deserves privacy no matter what age they are. After reading a lot of these posts I really think that privacy should be held very sacred. I don't know that I wouldn't ever invade my daughter's privacy if I did have a fear for my daughter's life, and I don't think any one can say with certainty until they are in that situation. I like what some of the previous posters have done with going to their children with this issue, their answers seem to reflect trust that their parents would do this only for good reason and an acceptance of this, I think that is why I was so able to accept that my parents had been snoops. This is something I plan on doing with my dd to because I think that her feelings on this are important and I will take what she says very seriously.

I agree with many of the posters though that because of our close relationship this need probably is not going to be an issue because we are so attached right now and I am committed to keeping that attachment.


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Well I'm not talking just "issues". One friend's daughter took up (she thought but wasn't sure) with an older guy who (she thought) was making meth, and she was afraid her daughter was planning to run away with him. If she hadn't snooped her daughter might have run off with him and she might not have known where they'd gone.

I have probably said in the past I would never snoop, but since then I've seen families in situations I've never imagined. I reserve judgment at this point.

For the record the situation with my dd was not just "issues" either, it was almost identical to the one you described. And none of the information I obtained was through snooping.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cherie2* 
No, the point is that if your child is going off the deep end, its too late to start snooping ... what good is it going to do? There are other ways, better ways to manage this - I am one of the parents who had teens with issues - and I snooped, it did not give me any information... in fact I found nothing ... it was a huge mistake in my opinion, and the damage it could have caused if she ever found out? Start counseling, start UA'a, move to the Netherlands if you have to ... snooping is just not worth it...

If you must see a diary.. ask your teen if you can look at it with them, or write something to you...I saw a great idea on this board once about a journal that mother and daughter kept and wrote back and forth to each other ... but that's really another subject..

exactly!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AislinCarys* 
Writing was my outlet as a teen. It was really how I survived those awful years, by writing out all the pain, it just helped me cope. There was no way I could have talked to my parents or friends about any of what I wrote, I just wouldn't have been able to cope with the talk. ( I did talk to my counsellor in my late teens, she was really good)

If I hadn't felt safe enough to write things down privately, and in the moment when I felt my world had ended, knowing NO-ONE would ever read it, well, I don't think I would have had another way out than killing myself. I felt trapped enough as it was (without not having that outlet, or having to talk about things tht just hurt to much to speak about).

totally get that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Okay. I'm not sure what this has to do with my post. I'm talking about long-term damage to the relationship, to the point where the main figure of authority in the teens life is someone they don't trust - ever again. I'm not talking about a teenage, hormone-fuelled "you're wrecking my life", followed by stamping off to their room to sulk. I'm talking about losing your authority, in a very real sense, because your teen now sees you as not just an authority figure, but as an actual _enemy_. How do you expect to parent effectively if you're the enemy?

I don't know if you're talking about my posts or not. I don't think parents who snoop always have bad intentions (I don't think they always have good intentions, either). What I do think, based on watching this play out many times from both sides (teenaged friends when I was younger, and teens I've seen as I've become an adult), is that snooping with cause doesn't help as often as people seem to think, and snooping just as a...safety measure??...creates huge problems.

If I'm troubled and going through a bunch of crap in my life (which has certainly happened more than once), it obviously alters my relationships with those around me. For one of those people to then say, "okay - you're altering our relationship, so I can violate your privacy" doesn't follow in any way. In any case, I never said that the relationship would necessarily be preserved if a parent doesn't snoop. What I said is that, for some personalities, the relationship _will_ be damaged, possibly destroyed, by snooping, even if it would have otherwise survived. My depressive episodes and other issues had a peripheral effect on my relationship with my parents (far more directly affected my education and peer relationships). They were my safety net. Had they chosen to invade my privacy, the _only safe place_ I had would have been gone. I'm not talking about "altering the relationship". I'm talking about hurting the child.

true.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Well I'm not talking just "issues". One friend's daughter took up (she thought but wasn't sure) with an older guy who (she thought) was making meth, and she was afraid her daughter was planning to run away with him. If she hadn't snooped her daughter might have run off with him and she might not have known where they'd gone.

I have probably said in the past I would never snoop, but since then I've seen families in situations I've never imagined. I reserve judgment at this point.

sounds like a LOT deeper issues going on in that family. issues that may not have been solved by snooping in a diary. if the daughter didn't keep a diary then what would the mom have done? just curious.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bobandjess99* 
the entire concept that children deserve "privacy" is completely just...well, wrong in my opinion. You can have privacy when you are grown. Until then....dh and I would do anything we felt necesary.

this is frightening to me. this concept does NOTHING to teach your child how to have good personal boundaries and how respect other people boundaries.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rocketgirl96* 
This might be where cultural differences kick in. In the Asian culture, adults are always to be respected and listened to. That is how I was brought up. But my Mom always made a point to tell me if anyone did something that I felt was "wrong" or touched me inappropriately that I should tell her. When I use the term "family" in previous posts, I am referring to immediate family only - the people that live in your house. I know that sometimes bad things happen in immediate families too but I don't think you can live your life based on that fear. I would think that you would trust those in your immediate family to not overstep those boundaries. This is very interesting because I never thought about the whole cultural aspect of this. I see now that I will have to be very vigilant about explaining to my child when adults overstep their boundaries.

Christine

I am really appreciating this conversation.

Because I was molested & raped by an extended family member, I just know that trust doesn't cut it. Aside from the fact that you just can't always tell about people, there are situations that could be problems. Two examples:

- someone marries into the family and therefore is, say, an "uncle" but not that well known
- someone who has been fine all his or her life could develop something like dementia and in the early stages many of those diseases produce lowered inhibitions or weird behaviours, even before it's obvious; same thing with brain tumours

That doesn't mean I live my life in fear. But as an adult survivor who managed _not_ to get into adult abusive relationships I know how much work I had to do to learn about boundaries, my rights and dignity as a person, etc., even to have a healthy relationship with a great person.

I do agree that many kids will be able to tell the difference as you did (and hurrah). The problematic area for me is that the ones who don't may become targets. Because the people who abuse people look for kids who don't know or understand or enforce boundaries - that's one of the "signals" for them to try to go further.

Anyways I am *not* saying that parents who violate their kids' privacy are ensuring that they will be abused. There is no one thing you can do to protect your kids OR put them at risk.

What I am refining in my mind is that there are risks to violating privacy as well and the idea that snooping or rules like "in my house I can read your things" is on balance protective - yeah I'm coming to think that it's not.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
bigeyes: You're in a very difficult situation. Dealing with an attachment disorder is hardcore. As highly as I value and respect privacy and boundaries, there are definitely some situations where normal rules don't apply. It sounds like you're having some success with your dsd, which is really great news. I remember reading one of your posts about her a long time ago, and wondering if there was any hope at all.

I totally agree with this too.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cherie2* 
For the record the situation with my dd was not just "issues" either, it was almost identical to the one you described. And none of the information I obtained was through snooping.

Well what if you didn't obtain it without snooping? Just because things worked out differently for you doesn't mean that had to work out differently. My friend is a good parent and practiced AP. Then her daughter turned 16 and got this boyfriend, and then things went downhill. Like I said, I just have a 6-year-old, and before I saw my friend's situation I would have said that I would never snoop on a kid no matter what, but I find myself in a position where I am unable to judge my friend for what she did. She was desperate and did what she felt necessary at the time.

This does not mean I think that kids don't deserve privacy, because I do think they deserve it. Just that I can't say I wouldn't snoop if things got very desperate.


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Well what if you didn't obtain it without snooping? Just because things worked out differently for you doesn't mean that had to work out differently. My friend is a good parent and practiced AP. Then her daughter turned 16 and got this boyfriend, and then things went downhill. Like I said, I just have a 6-year-old, and before I saw my friend's situation I would have said that I would never snoop on a kid no matter what, but I find myself in a position where I am unable to judge my friend for what she did. She was desperate and did what she felt necessary at the time.

This does not mean I think that kids don't deserve privacy, because I do think they deserve it. Just that I can't say I wouldn't snoop if things got very desperate.

I do see what you are saying, I totally agree with the premise of "I will make no judgments until I am in your shoes" so, I have been in those shoes, and I did snoop... I just think it was a mistake, and I would not advise others to do the same.


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## Aubergine68 (Jan 25, 2008)

Is anyone else reading this thread, and the many very thoughtful replies, and thinking "What is this sacred privacy of which they speak?' Or is it just me?

A lot of the values of privacy that the OP and those who support her write about are just not relevant to my family. No one in my family has a room of his or her own, for example, and I don't expect anyone ever will, and we're totally happy with that. We do a family bed and the children do musical beds according to need and preference.

I do expect that as they hit their teen years, their needs for privacy will change -- but my sister and I had a choice of four bedrooms when we were teens and we chose to share a room. So, yeah, it is possible that my children may have different needs, but it is hard for me to imagine the headspace of a teenager who would be suicidal if the privacy of her room were violated, for example.

I hope my children remain close to each other and to their parents, in the same sense that the previous poster who unschools her child feels close to her child.

I have no passwords to anything and no locked doors where the keys are inaccessible to my husband or dd10, nor do they from me (just got off the phone with dh who needed me to do some stuff online relating to work accounts for him and I was tooling through his "private" stuff online and thinking of this thread). I can't imagine ever using "keystroke" software, but I think it is an EXCELLENT principle to always operate as though it were in use when sitting down to a computer. I'll be communicating that thought to my children.

Mail that needs answering is pinned up on a bulletin board in the office. My dd is welcome to read ours if she wants...

We do have plenty of locks in the house, right now though -- we have a two-year- old, and it is all about childproofing (and making sure that mommy and daddy are not interrupted when we have cuddles....)

We pretty much have an open-door bathroom due to potty training and due to (until recently) having only one bathroom for four people to share. So dd doesn't get to lock the bathroom door if she's having a long bath because the potty needs to be accessible, but she can have the shower curtain drawn...there is a lock for short periods if she wants to use it. Dh and I don't ever lock the door.

If we needed to get into the bathroom and knocked on the door and dd was in there and it was locked and we were worried about her safety, would we break the door down? You bet! We'd let her know first....but this is honestly the kind of thing I thought of when I read the title of the thread, my kid having a seizure or something behind a locked door and me needing to get to him or her. (Seizure disorders run in my family...I have relatives who have found their teens unconscious on the floor, and thank God they check up on their kids...)

I've been trying to imagine a scenario where my husband or children would find something of mine and I'd get angry at them for "snooping" and I just can't. There are a few things that I'd rather my dd10 not get into till she's older, and there are some things I wrote when I was younger that would make me blush today, but I'm not afraid of sharing them. There are not a lot of private posessions in our home, either, barring safety or hygiene concerns. My children share toys, my dd and I have started to share some clothes as she grows into my sizes...everyone goes into each others' closets and bags and drawers if they are looking for a missing sweater or object and no one is offended....

I remember that there was nothing in our house off-limits to me when I was a child and that I did come across some trashy near-porn and was not the better emotionally for the experience. When my dd learned to read, we actually purged all bookshelves, and dvds, -- anything trashy that we wouldn't want her to find (for whatever reason) is gone. All the quality grown-up stuff that I would be ok explaining to a kid her age is still there.

But, anyway, thanks to all who have participated on this thread. It has challenged some of my thinking and fueled some interesting discussions in my home!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aubergine68* 
Is anyone else reading this thread, and the many very thoughtful replies, and thinking "What is this sacred privacy of which they speak?' Or is it just me?

<snip>
So, yeah, it is possible that my children may have different needs, but it is hard for me to imagine the headspace of a teenager who would be suicidal if the privacy of her room were violated, for example.

<snip>

I've been trying to imagine a scenario where my husband or children would find something of mine and I'd get angry at them for "snooping" and I just can't. There are a few things that I'd rather my dd10 not get into till I'm older, and there are some things I wrote when I was younger that would make me blush today, but I'm not afraid of sharing them. There are not a lot of private posessions in our home, either, barring safety or hygiene concerns. My children share toys, my dd and I have started to share some clothes as she grows into my sizes...everyone goes into each others' closets and bags and drawers if they are looking for a missing sweater or object and no one is offended....


I'm not quite this "privacy-less"







, but I do understand what you mean. Come to think of it, DH *has* read my journal, and I don't really give a fig - I haven't written in it in years though. There are things that we don't want the kids getting into for safety/developmental/age appropriate reasons, but we have those secured such that they cannot access them.

I guess as a kid/teen I never felt like I needed a 'sanctuary' in my house - probably partly because of my personality, and partly because my whole house was one big soft, safe place to be. I suppose this, though, is VERY individual to the house/parents, AND to the teen in question. People are so different, that what is considered an invasion of privacy to one is not to another...


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## LittleBlessings (May 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *herewearetogether* 
I would.
If I had a reason to believe that my daughter (or son) was not safe, yes, I would.
I wanted to kill myself when I was 13, had my mother not looked through my diary & confronted me, then I probably would have.
Yes, it's not a good thing, but *I would do whatever it takes to keep my children safe.* They might be angry with me at the time, but looking back they won't,
& I'd rather have an angry daughter than a dead daughter.

That being said,
I would NOT go through her room, read letters or anything, just to "check up on her" or "see what she's up to". I do hope to have a very good relationship with DD , & that she will come to talk to me about her problems.
But a depressed teenager, well, they often do very sad things.
I might be slightly more nervous, though, as I lost two friends through suicide, & I understand that many people here will strongly disagree with my opinion.









:

We all have a right to privacy but if it was a safety issue I would but I hope I would never have to. I hope to have a very open relationship with my childern.


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## accountclosed2 (May 28, 2007)

All our doors had locks when I was growing up, but the locks where of the plain kind, i.e. just a keyhole through the door. The same keys went in all the locks, and a bunch of them lived in a drawer of the kitchen. Gosh, I don't think I would have ever got over it if one of my parents (or siblings, cousins, uncles etc. We are a close-knit extended family) had walked in on me, well, for example when I was in the nude or something. I would never ever have considered locking the door when one of my friends were there (it was a privacy issue meaning I wouldn't be comfortable with anyone else present then).

Times when I wanted my privacy would include when I was writing stories or poems, but also, well, exploring myself IYKWIM. Is this something that you (as in all of you) consider wrong, since no-one has mentioned it? I thought it was totally normal (and healthy), even in younger children? And as a teenager I would have been totally and utterly embarrassed and humiliated if my parents had seen/talked about it. It was very private.


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## Aubergine68 (Jan 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AislinCarys* 
Times when I wanted my privacy would include when I was writing stories or poems, but also, well, exploring myself IYKWIM. Is this something that you (as in all of you) consider wrong, since no-one has mentioned it? I thought it was totally normal (and healthy), even in younger children? And as a teenager I would have been totally and utterly embarrassed and humiliated if my parents had seen/talked about it. It was very private.

Oh, good question.

I have a couple of funny stories I could tell, but won't, because my dd wouldn't like it if she has keystroke software installed on our computer without my knowing









Suffice to say, dh and I have agonized about respecting our children's privacy in this area. We teach that exploring oneself is normal, but that everyone old enough to understand does so alone and in privacy...and this privacy is an option for anyone in our house over the age of 2 who wants it.


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## amydidit (Jan 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AislinCarys* 
Times when I wanted my privacy would include when I was writing stories or poems, but also, well, exploring myself IYKWIM. Is this something that you (as in all of you) consider wrong, since no-one has mentioned it? I thought it was totally normal (and healthy), even in younger children? And as a teenager I would have been totally and utterly embarrassed and humiliated if my parents had seen/talked about it. It was very private.

I don't consider that wrong at all. Just because I don't believe children have a *right* to privacy that doesn't mean I don't think children *deserve* any privacy at all. If my DD is in her room with her door shut and we need to talk to her we don't just walk in. We knock and wait for her to answer. Just because we have established in our house that we can and will go through rooms and papers if we believe there is a real reason doesn't mean at ALL that we don't give our DC any private times.


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## accountclosed2 (May 28, 2007)

I think a main point for me with locking the door (as well as feeling that I was in privacy and no-one could walk in on me) was that it kept my impulsive younger siblings and abnoxious young uncles (mum's much younger brothers), who where very teasy, and just didn't understand that I wasn't a kid anymore, out. My parents could have unlocked the door from the outside at anytime, and my siblings would have been in trouble if they had gone to the effort to try and unlock the door!


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## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma4fun* 
i just can't imagine.......seeing my teenager act distant..... and then deciding i had better go search her room for contraband and check out her diary

the two do not go hand in hand in my mind AT ALL

i think i would be a victim of fearmongering to think that a teenager's attitude = the contents of her room.

if i'm worried about my kid, i'm going to try talking to her, or have dp talk to her, or encourage her to talk to her friends or an adult friend about her feelings. i would look for a new regular opportunity for us to reconnect and do something fun together. i would examine my own attitude to see if i've been too dismissive or critical lately. i would sit and remember what it's like to be a teen. i would reassure myself with some books or conversation about how moodiness and attitude and rebellion is so normal and healthy for teens who are learning more about themselves and where they fit in to the real world.

i wouldn't even think to search her room.

Wow. So well put. I'm getting in here late.

My mother read my diary, and my boyfriends love letters to me (by steaming the envelope seal open with an iron.) She did this with my younger sister.

IMO, reading someone else's diary is dishonest, disrespectful and degrading. It's an easy way to humiliate someone. It is really disgusting. Some posters wrote about protecting their child's safety. IMO, that can be wide open for interpretation, and then misused as an excuse to read private material. In extreme cases, like severe depression or violence, then perhaps it is worth weighing privacy versus safety. But over small things like two teens in love? That is none of anyone else's business. And when a parent gets caught, the only thing that happens is the child learns that the parent does not respect them very much. Not their individuality or boundaries or privacy. I lost a lot of respect for my mother when she did that.

I "reserve the right", in my mother's words, when my daughter is snorting coke and getting in a street fight with a local gang and throwing rocks at the police. Until that point, her privacy is to be respected. And even then, I will try better forms of communication first.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aubergine68* 
Is anyone else reading this thread, and the many very thoughtful replies, and thinking "What is this sacred privacy of which they speak?' Or is it just me?

A lot of the values of privacy that the OP and those who support her write about are just not relevant to my family. No one in my family has a room of his or her own, for example, and I don't expect anyone ever will, and we're totally happy with that. We do a family bed and the children do musical beds according to need and preference.


To me, sacred privacy would be my right or my daughter's right to be alone in our space without invasion when we want to be. My brother and I grew up with our own bedrooms and an expectation that when someone wanted to enter they would get permission and they would not enter if we did not give permission. Privacy is very sacred to me because of this and to me, it is hard to understand why someone would think it is okay to violate privacy routinely. My daughter and I live in a one bedroom apartment and share the same room, but I give her privacy when she asks for it because she does want it I think it would be disrespectful not to. I think that even with a two year old you can find a way to safely give a child privacy when they need it, you may have to rearrange a room to do so but it is possible. Young children obviously have safety issues to take into account, but they also tend to not want that much privacy until they are older so it isn't hard to help them get privacy safely when they ask for it.


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## Aubergine68 (Jan 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
To me, sacred privacy would be my right or my daughter's right to be alone in our space without invasion when we want to be. ....I think that even with a two year old you can find a way to safely give a child privacy when they need it, you may have to rearrange a room to do so but it is possible. Young children obviously have safety issues to take into account, but they also tend to not want that much privacy until they are older so it isn't hard to help them get privacy safely when they ask for it.


Well, anyone who needs to be alone in our home can find space for that (except possibly mommy, when 2 yr old is awake -- or sometimes it feels that way.) However, there is no real space that doesn't do double or triple duty in our home, no space that only belongs to one member of the family 24-7.

Honestly, we tried to set up a bedroom for dd10 only but she would never sleep there. She wanted to be in the same room as her brothers, or mom and dad. It was a punishment to her to feel isolated in her own room because no one else in the family was forced to be alone like that. And we got tired of her squeezing into her little brother's bed with him and one or the other of them falling out of the toddler bed and no one using her room except the hamster







So what do you do? We rearranged our domestic arrangment to suit our lifetyle and give all the kids bed space in the same bedroom. We have a playroom where any of the children can read, write, play, hang out with their friends and where dd hosts sleepovers, so they share "fun" space too. Maybe needs will change in the future, and we'll adapt...

We really don't view our lifestyle as one of routine violations of privacy, but rather as a lifestyle that fosters the values of attachment parenting and family life the way they work best for us.

My husband grew up in a 3 bedroom house with five siblings and two parents. He is very comfortable with the idea of multiple siblings sharing rooms and bedroom spaces.

I grew up in a home where we had five bedrooms and four bathrooms for three people. My sister and I doubled up because we felt too isolated.
Even when the option of having one's own room is there, not everyone wants or needs it.

Most of the families in the world probably are very used to the idea of sharing living space in a way that would seem a violation of privacy to those who grew up in a western lifestyle where one always had one's own room.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
bigeyes: You're in a very difficult situation. Dealing with an attachment disorder is hardcore. As highly as I value and respect privacy and boundaries, there are definitely some situations where normal rules don't apply. It sounds like you're having some success with your dsd, which is really great news. I remember reading one of your posts about her a long time ago, and wondering if there was any hope at all.

I honestly thought there wasn't, but the past few months have been amazing. I think the privacy issue is huge for me because of my background, and that is why it just killed me to think one of my kids would violate my trust like that, and to know I would have to go into her room to look for my things. It felt wrong to go look, but I knew the things were in there and she wouldn't admit she had them, which just made me angrier. I don't know what makes me _angrier-_ being lied to or having something stolen. I'm a pretty open book, even if something is embarrassing I'll tell you, and if I say something stupid I usually leave it up even if I apologize (because I think you should own your words, yk?) so I can't wrap my head around the behavior, especially when it's a pointless lie, or stealing something I probably would have let you borrow anyway.







: Whatever you do or say, you own it, _or you just don't do it.

_ I _think_ some of it's sinking in, but I won't know for sure until she's consistently making good decisions. I know things are much calmer around here, and that's a _very_ good thing. I just wish she paid more attention to people who want to be her friend and less attention to people who jerk her around for their own entertainment. It's _so_ frustrating to watch, but I guess we can only conquer one problem at a time.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

sharing a room with siblings is different then your parents rifling through your stuff and reading your journal. intent matters. intent always matters. thats why when i found out my parents went through my room i wasn't mad. they had every reason to go through my room. i was in way over my head. their intentions were good ones, their reasons were good ones. they had never violated my privacy before and didn't after that. I co slept until i was 12ish .. i never felt violated. i would have felt violated if they had ready my diary or my poetry though.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I've been thinking about this since Auburgine68's post about privacy and an 'open door' house. In our family, everyone is entitled to "private time", if they want to be in the bathroom alone, or in their bedroom alone for a while...but nobody is allowed to disallow people in their room entirely, or even long-term. If a door is closed, we will knock before entering and state our purpose for coming in, and wait for the person to tell us OK, or to wait a few minutes...but outright refusal is not something I'm OK with. Some of my stuff is in the kids' rooms, some of their stuff is in mine, and some of their stuff is in each others' rooms - it's all pretty fluid. If I can't find something of mine, and I've looked elsewhere, I'm going to look in my kids' room for it (not in an accusing way because our stuff floats around pretty freely in our house) - if they're in there and the door is closed, I'll knock....if they're not, I'll just go in. They will be free to do the same; anything we don't want them finding (i.e., age inappropriate) will be inaccessible to them by other means. We have 'private time', but not really 'private space' - each person starts the night out in "their room", but people usually migrate - I know that will change as they get older, but the spirit is one I'll continue to foster. We each have special items that are valued and don't let others mess with, but for the most part our rooms and belongings are shared.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I have no problem with a person (toddler, child, teen, or adult) needing time alone and private time, and a private place to write down their thoughts or have a phone conversation, but I am not comfortable with a "keep out" vibe, KWIM? Even as teens, I won't be comfortable with that. I have no problem with people wanting to be alone for a period of time, but not a long term ban. It's just not the kind of atmosphere I want in my house, and I'll work while they're younger to instill that.

I can't conceive of just randomly searching my kids room because I'm the parent and they are the child. I _can_ conceive looking through their room if they were exhibiting troublesome behaviors or changes, and attempts to talk to them about it were blocked or denied. I would only read a journal if they were missing or I felt they were suicidal. I won't monitor phone conversations. I will monitor their online activity. I won't get them a cell phone with text plan (which I don't hav emyself, either). I will be involved in their lives (their friends, activities, etc.) without being meddling or micromanaging.

I think there are a couple different issues here; the issue of privacy of space, and privacy of time and thoughts. Privacy of time and thoughts IMO is a right and will be defended in my house; privacy of space, not as much. Online privacy is a whole different ballgame because of the potential for kids being deceived and taken advantage of.

Clearly, having an open, attached, respectful relationship with your child is a way to hopefully avoid the problem of having to search a child's room, or look in their journal. But I've learned just in 4 short years of parenting to never say never. Sometimes, even with gentle, attached, respectful upbringings, children make choices that are destructive.


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## alllyssa (Sep 1, 2004)

Quote:

Would you invade your child's privacy to make sure they are okay?
Absolutely. No question about it.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I've been thinking about this since Auburgine68's post about privacy and an 'open door' house. In our family, everyone is entitled to "private time", if they want to be in the bathroom alone, or in their bedroom alone for a while...but nobody is allowed to disallow people in their room entirely, or even long-term. If a door is closed, we will knock before entering and state our purpose for coming in, and wait for the person to tell us OK, or to wait a few minutes...but outright refusal is not something I'm OK with. Some of my stuff is in the kids' rooms, some of their stuff is in mine, and some of their stuff is in each others' rooms - it's all pretty fluid. If I can't find something of mine, and I've looked elsewhere, I'm going to look in my kids' room for it (not in an accusing way because our stuff floats around pretty freely in our house) - if they're in there and the door is closed, I'll knock....if they're not, I'll just go in. They will be free to do the same; anything we don't want them finding (i.e., age inappropriate) will be inaccessible to them by other means. We have 'private time', but not really 'private space' - each person starts the night out in "their room", but people usually migrate - I know that will change as they get older, but the spirit is one I'll continue to foster. We each have special items that are valued and don't let others mess with, but for the most part our rooms and belongings are shared.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I have no problem with a person (toddler, child, teen, or adult) needing time alone and private time, and a private place to write down their thoughts or have a phone conversation, but I am not comfortable with a "keep out" vibe, KWIM? Even as teens, I won't be comfortable with that. I have no problem with people wanting to be alone for a period of time, but not a long term ban. It's just not the kind of atmosphere I want in my house, and I'll work while they're younger to instill that.

I can't conceive of just randomly searching my kids room because I'm the parent and they are the child. I _can_ conceive looking through their room if they were exhibiting troublesome behaviors or changes, and attempts to talk to them about it were blocked or denied. I would only read a journal if they were missing or I felt they were suicidal. I won't monitor phone conversations. I will monitor their online activity. I won't get them a cell phone with text plan (which I don't hav emyself, either). I will be involved in their lives (their friends, activities, etc.) without being meddling or micromanaging.

I think there are a couple different issues here; the issue of privacy of space, and privacy of time and thoughts. Privacy of time and thoughts IMO is a right and will be defended in my house; privacy of space, not as much. Online privacy is a whole different ballgame because of the potential for kids being deceived and taken advantage of.

Clearly, having an open, attached, respectful relationship with your child is a way to hopefully avoid the problem of having to search a child's room, or look in their journal. But I've learned just in 4 short years of parenting to never say never. Sometimes, even with gentle, attached, respectful upbringings, children make choices that are destructive.


ITA. DSD has some relatives who hate dh and I, and who have actively tried to destroy her relationship with us, which has been a lot of help when she already has psychological issues.







: Under no circumstances will she have a telephone conversation with any of them unless she is in a room with one of us where we can hear the direction the conversation is taking, we will read any emails that go between them and her and _that's just the way it is._ If they don't like it, that's really just a whole lot of too damn bad. They're lucky we let them speak to her at all after all the [email protected] they've pulled. They lost the right to spend time alone with her when they took it upon themselves to play with her emotions and her mind and do stupid things like do drugs and drink when they were watching her and take her to meet the family pedophile.







(No, I'm not kidding. This UAV molested her mom and all her aunts, and for some reason they took her to meet him one day while dh was at work, about a year before I met them all.







) No effing way are they qualified to take her anywhere or have a private conversation with her, period.

Can you imagine being an incest survivor and taking care of child with emotional problems for a year and then finding out that little tidbit? Those women make me feel violent. I know they've been damaged, but the harmful things they do to other people are just inexcusible. _There's not a chance they'll have private communication with my kid._ They've done enough damage already.


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## accountclosed2 (May 28, 2007)

I feel a lot more ok about monitoring phone calls - if warranted, I guess, and internet use. As long as my child knows it is being monitored, yes, and she does have a "privacy zone" (not necessarily a permanent physical place).

This thread has really got me thinking.

Would I read my child's diary in any circumstance? No I don't think so. Not unless she was missing, in which case I'd say all the rules are out, and anything might be a clue. Possibly suicidal? No. It wouldn't have helped me, it would have made it worse. Would I search her room (unless she was missing)? Only as a last resort, i.e. suspected stealing and she won't talk when asked? Certainly. Very strong suspicion of drugs hidden in her room? Possibly, yes, as a last resort. Condoms hidden in a bedroom? I had condoms in my bedroom, but wasn't actually sexually active until years after I moved out of home, finished a couple of degrees and moved to the other side of the world... I hope DD would feel comfortable enough to talk to me once she is sexually active or plans to become, whenever that is. If not I just hope I will have prepared her well enough to make wise choices. Because it will be her choice. I have no illusions that I'll be able to stop her (as a teen) if she has her mind set to it.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AislinCarys* 
I feel a lot more ok about monitoring phone calls - if warranted, I guess, and internet use. As long as my child knows it is being monitored, yes, and she does have a "privacy zone" (not necessarily a permanent physical place).

This thread has really got me thinking.

Would I read my child's diary in any circumstance? No I don't think so. Not unless she was missing, in which case I'd say all the rules are out, and anything might be a clue. Possibly suicidal? No. It wouldn't have helped me, it would have made it worse. Would I search her room (unless she was missing)? Only as a last resort, i.e. suspected stealing and she won't talk when asked? Certainly. Very strong suspicion of drugs hidden in her room? Possibly, yes, as a last resort. Condoms hidden in a bedroom? I had condoms in my bedroom, but wasn't actually sexually active until years after I moved out of home, finished a couple of degrees and moved to the other side of the world... I hope DD would feel comfortable enough to talk to me once she is sexually active or plans to become, whenever that is. If not I just hope I will have prepared her well enough to make wise choices. Because it will be her choice. I have no illusions that I'll be able to stop her (as a teen) if she has her mind set to it.

Yeah, I can't see checking for condoms. But if I happened across one I would actually be _relieved_ they had sense enough to have them.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bigeyes* 
Yeah, I can't see checking for condoms. But if I happened across one I would actually be _relieved_ they had sense enough to have them.

yeah totally. if i thought my kid was having sex i would be ticked off if he wasn't using condoms! i don't mind him having sex but for cripes sake use a condom!

my best friend was dating a guy who had 2 brothers (one was his twin one was younger) and his parents kept condoms in a jar in their kitchen.. sort of like an upgraded cookie jar. lol... and all of them got condoms in their christmas stockings







. his parents said they don't live under a rock the odds of their kids not being sexually active are pretty slim.. so they want to make sure there are no excuses for lack of condom usage


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## H & J's Mom (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aubergine68* 
Is anyone else reading this thread, and the many very thoughtful replies, and thinking "What is this sacred privacy of which they speak?' Or is it just me?

I think for me a good example of sacred privacy would writing a diary or journal of *private thoughts* , putting a lock on it, writing PRIVATE on the cover and then being able to feel secure that NO ONE would read it.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *H & J's Mom* 
I think for me a good example of sacred privacy would writing a diary or journal of *private thoughts* , putting a lock on it, writing PRIVATE on the cover and then being able to feel secure that NO ONE would read it.

i think many kids have the diary with the lock and the bold demand to KEEP OUT!! PRIVATE!. however, it is not normally a necessary thing to do, it is just their first attempts at asserting their need for privacy... it is a sad state of affairs when those demands are ignored unless absolutely necessary. for instance, if your child disappeared. After you have called all of her friends and their parents, her job if she has one, her boyfriend/girlfriend if she has one, any relatives she is close to with no avail and contacted the police, then reading her diary to find out any pertinent information would be reasonable.
If at all possible I wouldn't read her diary ... i would give it to the police to read b/c then they can pick out the pertinent information from the diary themselves and then ask me questions instead of me reading it and trying to guess what is important.

also- b/c if the police are going to read it anyway there is no need for me to read it. they are the ones who do this for a living and have a much better chance of finding her then i do.


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
yeah totally. if i thought my kid was having sex i would be ticked off if he wasn't using condoms! i don't mind him having sex but for cripes sake use a condom!

my best friend was dating a guy who had 2 brothers (one was his twin one was younger) and his parents kept condoms in a jar in their kitchen.. sort of like an upgraded cookie jar. lol... and all of them got condoms in their christmas stockings







. his parents said they don't live under a rock the odds of their kids not being sexually active are pretty slim.. so they want to make sure there are no excuses for lack of condom usage

I find this pretty strange. I hope that by the time my DD is having sex she is _at least_ enough of an adult to be able to swing $5 for a box of condoms. I bought my own tampons from 13 on.

Seriously, I find all of the condom-dispensing programs a bit odd. They are handing them out at the _college_ where I teach all the time. None of these people seems to have a problem keeping their cell phones paid for and on them 100% of the time.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

b/c the more readily available they are the more likely they are to use them. two examples - 1. teenagers are impulsive... i would prefer it if ds planned it before he had sex but i'm not going to bank on that. if he does end up having sex on hormone driven impulse at least he has condoms. 2. the kids are to shy, uncomfortable, afraid, embarrassed etc to go to the store and buy condoms. you can say they shouldnt be having sex then ... and that may be true.. but it probably wont stop them from doing it anyway.

as far as the college thing.. a lot of kids are stranded at school with no transportation.. and coed dorms are like tiny hedonistic societies ....better they are readily available then half the dorm getting syphilis


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaterPrimaePuellae* 
I find this pretty strange. I hope that by the time my DD is having sex she is _at least_ enough of an adult to be able to swing $5 for a box of condoms. I bought my own tampons from 13 on.

Seriously, I find all of the condom-dispensing programs a bit odd. They are handing them out at the _college_ where I teach all the time. *None of these people seems to have a problem keeping their cell phones paid for and on them 100% of the time.







*

I actually totally agree with this, especially the bolding. I started having sex at 16. And BF and I used our own money from our jobs to buy the condoms. We figured if we were grown up enough to be having sex, we were grown up enough to be responsible for it. We took turns buying boxes. After getting over the initial embarrassment of walking into a store and buying them, it was just what we did. We used a condom every.single.time. No exaggeration.


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## H & J's Mom (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaterPrimaePuellae* 
I find this pretty strange. I hope that by the time my DD is having sex she is _at least_ enough of an adult to be able to swing $5 for a box of condoms. I bought my own tampons from 13 on.

Seriously, I find all of the condom-dispensing programs a bit odd. They are handing them out at the _college_ where I teach all the time. None of these people seems to have a problem keeping their cell phones paid for and on them 100% of the time.










If they are free and readily available I think the chances of a teen getting and using them are much more likely than if a teen had to actually make the trip to the store, pay for them with their own cash (which they would rather put towards anything else), and risk the potential of embarassment. Much easier to say forget it, nothing will happen this time ...

I don't care how my teens gets them, I just hope they use them.


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
b/c the more readily available they are the more likely they are to use them. two examples - 1. teenagers are impulsive... i would prefer it if ds planned it before he had sex but i'm not going to bank on that. if he does end up having sex on hormone driven impulse at least he has condoms. 2. the kids are to shy, uncomfortable, afraid, embarrassed etc to go to the store and buy condoms. *you can say they shouldnt be having sex then ...* and that may be true.. but it probably wont stop them from doing it anyway
as far as the college thing.. a lot of kids are stranded at school with no transportation.. and coed dorms are like tiny hedonistic societies ....better they are readily available then half the dorm getting syphilis


I see your point, but you're right-- the bolded part is what I would say







Though this specific instance is about sex, and therefore more controversial, I think this is actually part of a much bigger problem of kids not taking responsibility for themselves. I cannot imagine the sort of life in which my mom would "do my laundry" when I come home from college, *or* in which I would expect my parents (or strangers) to pay for my contraception. There are three grocery stores and innumerable gas stations within walking distances of my college. And they sell condoms at the on- campus book store. Here's another example-- I don't think there are any organizations handing out cigarettes, but the majority of the student pop. seems able to easily obtain them.

Sorry for the veer off-topic. But the cookie jar of condoms is just a little much for me!


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *H & J's Mom* 
If they are free and readily available I think the chances of a teen getting and using them are much more likely than if a teen had to actually make the trip to the store, pay for them with their own cash *(which they would rather put towards anything e*lse), and risk the potential of embarassment. Much easier to say forget it, nothing will happen this time ...

I don't care how my teens gets them, I just hope they use them.

Sorry for not multi-quoting.
If having sex is not worth $0.60, then they should _definitely_ not be having sex.

As an aside, I think (in terms of economics) this is actually just not true, anyway (that free= they use them). People tend to value and use things that they have to pay for. (there was some study with candy bars a few years ago...?) Anyway. Back to snooping.









ETA: The4OfUs, thanks for that example-- that's exactly the sort of thing I was talking about


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## IloveAllMyBabies (Nov 1, 2008)

i never could feel safe to talk to my birthmom cause she was very mean

but with my stepmom she told me if i ever wanted to have sex to let her know and she would get me birth control i never had to hide anything from her she never judged me was always open with me and was a true mom

soo i plain to do the same with my daughter if i ever have one to just keep and open safe place for her to come to me and talk about anything she wants too

i also hope to have that with my boys but to go through their stuff nooo i could never do that


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaterPrimaePuellae* 
Sorry for not multi-quoting.
If having sex is not worth $0.60, then they should _definitely_ not be having sex.

As an aside, I think (in terms of economics) this is actually just not true, anyway (that free= they use them). People tend to value and use things that they have to pay for. (there was some study with candy bars a few years ago...?) Anyway. Back to snooping.










I really don't think this would apply. i don't think kids are more likely to use condoms just b/c they bought them. candy bars are a novelty item condoms are not. yes, if you buy something yourself using your money then you value it more.... this generally applies to something that you want or need... clothes, candy, xbox, food..etc. condoms are not something one particularly longs for... nor are they NEEDED to have sex. so i don't think it works the same way. especially b/c the theory is that if you buy your own stuff with your own money you will appreciate it more and take better care of it. this doesn't usually apply to disposable items.

eta- my aunt got my cousin birth control when she went college. i think this is also a good plan.


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## Aubergine68 (Jan 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I have no problem with a person (toddler, child, teen, or adult) needing time alone and private time, and a private place to write down their thoughts or have a phone conversation, but I am not comfortable with a "keep out" vibe, KWIM? Even as teens, I won't be comfortable with that. I have no problem with people wanting to be alone for a period of time, but not a long term ban. It's just not the kind of atmosphere I want in my house, and I'll work while they're younger to instill that. .


Thanks for this, it articulates my own feeling very well







Looking back on my life as a child, adult, and mother of a family, it has always gone better for me when I arranged things in ways that promoted sharing, holistic living, and emotional intimacy with others in my family. When I went down the "keep out" path of personal isolationalism, compartmentalizing my life from that of my immediate family....well, it doesn't feel right or go well.

Privacy issues outside my immediate family are pretty important to me, though. I have a professional and volunteer life where I have to be careful about privacy of others and am in the process of switching family doctors because I perceive my doc as being too gossipy about the medical info of others, for example.

I certainly have no problem with a child having a private diary. Again, though, I have to struggle a little bit to take that seriously, I'm afraid. (And if my children do this, I will make that struggle a priority). I don't think I ever wrote ANYTHING as a teen that I didn't want to share with others, personally.

I am not sure I'd be ok with a locked computer file unless it was a word document....I don't want pictures on my computer that I can't access....

I agree with posters earlier in this thread who say that anything written in such a journal could be fantasy or fiction as easily as not. I know that stuff I wrote as a teen was not reliable at all, and I don' t think it would be useful to a "snooper".

If my child went missing (hard to think about), I'd probably read everything I could find that they wrote, just as a connection to her. And turn it over to police as necessary. I read all of my father's papers after he died -- figured if he REALLY didn't want me to see something he would have destroyed it to prevent that possibility.

I think the jar of condoms is a cool idea. Add me to the list of people who owned condoms years before actually becoming sexually active.

This reminds me, that I actually had an auntie talk to me about finding them in my stuff (I was traveling and staying with her). I did not take offense at the "snooping" but was grateful for her input and advice. I needed an adult to talk to about that kind of stuff.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
I really don't think this would apply. i don't think kids are more likely to use condoms just b/c they bought them. candy bars are a novelty item condoms are not. yes, if you buy something yourself using your money then you value it more.... this generally applies to something that you want or need... clothes, candy, xbox, food..etc. condoms are not something one particularly longs for... nor are they NEEDED to have sex. so i don't think it works the same way. especially b/c the theory is that if you buy your own stuff with your own money you will appreciate it more and take better care of it. this doesn't usually apply to disposable items.

eta- my aunt got my cousin birth control when she went college. i think this is also a good plan.

Add to that the social stigma our culture associates with teen sex and you get a recipie for not using them. They will just no buy the condoms because they don't want to risk the disapproving "your going to have sex" look.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I have no problem with a person (toddler, child, teen, or adult) needing time alone and private time, and a private place to write down their thoughts or have a phone conversation, but I am not comfortable with a "keep out" vibe, KWIM? Even as teens, I won't be comfortable with that. I have no problem with people wanting to be alone for a period of time, but not a long term ban. It's just not the kind of atmosphere I want in my house, and I'll work while they're younger to instill that.

See, I don't understand that. I had a definite keep out rule about my room growing up and my dad respected that. DD is reaching a point where she's developing a keep out rule with her room. I don't see it as a negative thing. I see it as her learning to place boundaries based on what she's comfortable with. If she doesn't want me to go into her room without permission, even to just put away laundry, I have no problem with that. It's not just personal time, it's personal space. Somewhere where you can keep your private life private. It's not just a value either. While you may be comfortable keeping your room more open, someone who is a naturally more private person won't be comfortable with that no matter how they were raised simply because it's who they are.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Buying condoms isn't about money. It's about impulsiveness and embarrassment. If you leave that to a teen, they probably won't buy them. And yes, that might very well mean "well, they shouldn't be having sex then" but "shouldn't" and "aren't" are two different words. Teens do things they "shouldn't" every day of the week. I'd personally like that "shouldn't" to not turn into a baby or a STD.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

That shouldn't is one big part of why they won't buy the condoms too. No way I'm going to go out of my way and pay money so someone can tell that I'm doing something I shouldn't (in their opinion) be doing.


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Add to that the social stigma our culture associates with teen sex and you get a recipie for not using them. They will just no buy the condoms because they don't want to risk the disapproving "your going to have sex" look.

I was horribly embarassed the first time I bought tampons, but I got over it.

I see almost zero stigma associated with teen sex, only with teen pregnancy, and I live in a very conservative area. In fact, what _I_ see is that teens are ridiculed if they are not having sex. When my sis was in highschool I all of her friends were buying condoms (and most of the girls were on bcp), and if one had been unwilling to buy them, there were friends to supply them.

Also, I would _not_ put my daughter on bcp. I have serious concerns about its safety, its effect on maturation, and its emotional side-effects. Also, I think lots of teens use it in lieu of condoms, so all one is preventing is pregancy-- the least of my concerns, personally. My brother's girlfriend has a darling daughter (not his), and I know they are both happier to have her than syphilis or HIV.

I am happy to agree to disagree on this subject and return the subject to the original post. I doubt we'll find much common ground on this one.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaterPrimaePuellae* 
I see almost zero stigma associated with teen sex, only with teen pregnancy, and I live in a very conservative area. In fact, what _I_ see is that teens are ridiculed if they are not having sex. When my sis was in highschool I all of her friends were buying condoms (and most of the girls were on bcp), and if one had been unwilling to buy them, there were friends to supply them.

The stigma doesn't come from other teens. It comes from adults. Can you say you know adults who would encourage teen sex? It doesn't even have to be an obvious stigma association. I can't even count the number of times I've heard an adult say something along the lines of "My thirteen/fourteen/fifteen year old won't be/isn't thinking about sex all he/she cares about is playing with friends and doing school work." Um, no your (generally speaking, not directing at anyone) teenage is a sexual being whether you want to admit it or not and saying otherwise, particularly around said teen, is telling them they are wrong for even having those feelings let alone acting on them.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

tampons and condoms are not remotely similar.

when i buy tampons (i got my period at nine so i was pretty young) i am not remotely embarrased.. every girl gets their period at some point.

with condoms its just weird that the clerk know your going to dtd. i think its a little weird now.... at 16 it would have been awful.

plus if your parents give you condoms you can pretty much guarantee they wont get mad that you have them. Some kids may be afraid they will get in trouble if their parents find the condoms. which as it turns out is not necessarily unfounded.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
See, I don't understand that. I had a definite keep out rule about my room growing up and my dad respected that. DD is reaching a point where she's developing a keep out rule with her room. I don't see it as a negative thing. I see it as her learning to place boundaries based on what she's comfortable with. If she doesn't want me to go into her room without permission, even to just put away laundry, I have no problem with that. It's not just personal time, it's personal space. Somewhere where you can keep your private life private. It's not just a value either. While you may be comfortable keeping your room more open, someone who is a naturally more private person won't be comfortable with that no matter how they were raised simply because it's who they are.

I guess to me, the keep out vibe doesn't lend itself to an emotionally attached relationship, which is the kind we're all talking about being helpful to avoid a lot of the problems, or at least lessen them, in this thread. The keep out vibe, to me, is almost a way of the teen saying, "I don't want you involved", which is ironic since what they're asking for is trust from their parents...but I've always been on the 'if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to be worried about" kind of mindset. I'll freely admit I just don't get an intense need for privacy; I wonder how it evolves, if it's organic in someone's temperament or if there are other factors that contribute (like parent sbeign too nosy or controlling, etc. would magnify it, or the parents being very strict about their own privacy, etc.). I would not barge into a closed door room (obviously unless I thought someone was in imminent danger), nor will I accept my children doing it to each other, but I would expect the person to acknowledge the knocker and arrange themselves to accept their entry within a few minutes (unless they had previously asked for some time alone and to not be bothered). I don't know - I just don't like the disconnected, wall-building type vibe that IMO the keep out mentality brings to a relationship...and will do whatever I can to not encourage it in my household. If one of my children develops into a person who craves privacy, I will surely revisit this and we will work together to come up with a compromise that will make us both happy; I'll be interested to see what happens as the kids get older.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aubergine68* 
Looking back on my life as a child, adult, and mother of a family, it has always gone better for me when I arranged things in ways that promoted sharing, holistic living, and emotional intimacy with others in my family. When I went down the "keep out" path of personal isolationalism, compartmentalizing my life from that of my immediate family....well, it doesn't feel right or go well.

Yes, this - I guess I feel like the keep out vibe kind of goes in opposition to the concept of being an attached, involved family. Again, NOT saying that people need to be on top of each other all the time and never get a moment to themselves, but just that isolating yourself from the family routinely and as a rule (i.e., don't go in my room without my explicit permission) seems like a recipe for disconnection instead of connection. I suppose this will have to be an agree to disagree thing, and it will be interesting to see how my kids come to view the issue, if they will absorb my values and if their own temperaments will agree with it, or if we will have to muddle through some kind of compromise.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Attachment isn't about not having any privacy or any space of your own. It's about relationships. Relationships sometimes work better when people have some space for themselves. Not all people need it but some people do. Part of a good, attached relationship is understanding people's particular needs and accommodating them when possible. If people really need some privacy, and teenagers often do, then forcing them to not have privacy would be disrespectful and IMO would not promote attachment at all. As I've said, I can't say that in a desperate life-or-death kind of scenario I wouldn't overrule that, but short of that I'd give privacy to someone who felt it was necessary for them.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i have always had an intense need for privacy. my family is incredibly close and loving but when i was younger i went through some stuff and i really NEEDED emotional space. if they had pushed me i would have shut down completely and been horribly miserable. it would have made everything about 1000 times harder.

when i was first starting to come out was one of those times. i would have been miserable had i not had privacy and a lot of it. i did not want to talk. i did not need to talk. i was not ready to talk. i needed everyone to leave me be until i was ready to deal with things. and they really did.. it was one of the best gifts my parents could have given me.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I guess to me, the keep out vibe doesn't lend itself to an emotionally attached relationship, which is the kind we're all talking about being helpful to avoid a lot of the problems, or at least lessen them, in this thread. The keep out vibe, to me, is almost a way of the teen saying, "I don't want you involved", which is ironic since what they're asking for is trust from their parents...but I've always been on the 'if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to be worried about" kind of mindset. I'll freely admit I just don't get an intense need for privacy; I wonder how it evolves, if it's organic in someone's temperament or if there are other factors that contribute (like parent sbeign too nosy or controlling, etc. would magnify it, or the parents being very strict about their own privacy, etc.). I would not barge into a closed door room (obviously unless I thought someone was in imminent danger), nor will I accept my children doing it to each other, but I would expect the person to acknowledge the knocker and arrange themselves to accept their entry within a few minutes (unless they had previously asked for some time alone and to not be bothered). I don't know - I just don't like the disconnected, wall-building type vibe that IMO the keep out mentality brings to a relationship...and will do whatever I can to not encourage it in my household. If one of my children develops into a person who craves privacy, I will surely revisit this and we will work together to come up with a compromise that will make us both happy; I'll be interested to see what happens as the kids get older.

Yes, this - I guess I feel like the keep out vibe kind of goes in opposition to the concept of being an attached, involved family. Again, NOT saying that people need to be on top of each other all the time and never get a moment to themselves, but just that isolating yourself from the family routinely and as a rule (i.e., don't go in my room without my explicit permission) seems like a recipe for disconnection instead of connection. I suppose this will have to be an agree to disagree thing, and it will be interesting to see how my kids come to view the issue, if they will absorb my values and if their own temperaments will agree with it, or if we will have to muddle through some kind of compromise.

I do need privacy and have as far back as I can remember. It may have to do with being a writer. I get energy around others, being an extrovert, and I love to talk and share.

But when it comes time to figure things out for myself and find my creative well and voice, then I need silence and peace. I need my little 'altars' to be my own, space-wise. It's not a matter of hiding or disconnecting from others; it's a matter of connecting with myself. It's "A room of one's own."

I guess as a family philosophy, I feel that a "yes" isn't really a yes if you can't say no. I certainly always invite my husband and other people into my life and space, but without the choice, it wouldn't mean anything.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I guess as a family philosophy, I feel that a "yes" isn't really a yes if you can't say no. I certainly always invite my husband and other people into my life and space, but without the choice, it wouldn't mean anything.

Very interesting to me, I like that. As I said above, it will be interesting to me to see how my kids develop...and also as I said above, I'm not going to force myself on my kids; if they wind up craving personal space that is absolute, we'll work something out that makes us all happy.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I guess to me, the keep out vibe doesn't lend itself to an emotionally attached relationship, which is the kind we're all talking about being helpful to avoid a lot of the problems, or at least lessen them, in this thread. The keep out vibe, to me, is almost a way of the teen saying, "I don't want you involved", which is ironic since what they're asking for is trust from their parents...but I've always been on the 'if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to be worried about" kind of mindset. I'll freely admit I just don't get an intense need for privacy; I wonder how it evolves, if it's organic in someone's temperament or if there are other factors that contribute (like parent sbeign too nosy or controlling, etc. would magnify it, or the parents being very strict about their own privacy, etc.). I would not barge into a closed door room (obviously unless I thought someone was in imminent danger), nor will I accept my children doing it to each other, but I would expect the person to acknowledge the knocker and arrange themselves to accept their entry within a few minutes (unless they had previously asked for some time alone and to not be bothered). I don't know - I just don't like the disconnected, wall-building type vibe that IMO the keep out mentality brings to a relationship...and will do whatever I can to not encourage it in my household. If one of my children develops into a person who craves privacy, I will surely revisit this and we will work together to come up with a compromise that will make us both happy; I'll be interested to see what happens as the kids get older.


Would you feel better if it wasn't directly associated with building walls in a relationship? I mentioned earlier I was a very keep out teen. DD is turning into at least a bit of a keep out teen. There are not and have never been walls between my father and me. And there aren't walls between dd and my self and DH. There are going to be things your teen doesn't want you involved in. That's inevitable. And just because they don't want to share doesn't mean it's something that's wrong. For me it was just things that I wouldn't simply be embarrassed about, not something that I was doing wrong or that needed to be hidden. I just didn't want my dad or anyone else for that matter, to know that at 15 I still occasionally slept with my teddy bear. The fact that he respected my need for space and not just time really strengthened my trust in him.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

I absolutely disagree with invading a kid's privacy "just in case". I do believe in doing so if the kid is in clear and present danger and there may be something you could find that might help you help them. The act of being a teenager is not inherently dangerous and definitely not the kind of danger that warrants invading a kid's privacy.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *daniellebluetoo* 
Granted, my son is only almost 7.
BUT, I pay the rent here, that IS NOT his room, THAT is MY room, I allow him to use it.

Wow. That's how I feel about _my dog_. I can't even imagine putting my kid on the same level as my dog. Please don't apply Leerburg's dog training tips to your children.


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## NettleTea (Aug 16, 2007)

I think the missing term in this thread is 'respect'. This isn't about rights or what one "deserves", but respect for one another. I try to not do things to my child that I would not want done to me. Because I respect him as a human being.
If I felt that I needed to do some investigating for the sake of protecting his life then I'm sure that I would. But I would want to try and talk with him first before it came to that. And I hope that he would do the same things for me if for some reason it ever became necessary.


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## KathyMe (Dec 4, 2008)

This is a really interesting debate and reminds me I was going to post a related thread. But just to join in here. I think there is a big difference between wanting to keep an eye on your kids by checking out who they are talking to etc AND secretively spying on them.

I have just started using safensoundmail kids email which means I can check what emails Poppy gets and sends (my little girl aged 9) If I want. Now because she is only 9 I think that I need to check she isn't getting dodgy mail from predators or bullies or whatever. However, we have a pretty open relationship so I discussed it WITH her and we decided it was fair for me to check emails coming from strangers but not her friends.

I think that is a good compromise. Discussion AND parent responsibility!


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

ok I know this thread is getting old, but I had this thought today... what about teaching our children that the "right to privacy" is an important thing?

We live in a dangerous time of legislation trying harder and harder to diminish citizens right to privacy. If we raise our kids thinking they have no right to their privacy they may well grow up thinking this is not an important or deserved right. Then where would we be?


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## NettleTea (Aug 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cherie2* 
ok I know this thread is getting old, but I had this thought today... what about teaching our children that the "right to privacy" is an important thing?

We live in a dangerous time of legislation trying harder and harder to diminish citizens right to privacy. If we raise our kids thinking they have no right to their privacy they may well grow up thinking this is not an important or deserved right. Then where would we be?









:


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## forthebest (Jun 19, 2006)

OMG I also got 'found out' for being responsable with the condoms! Through sneaking in my room I was put on the pill. Absolutely no to reading anyones diary thats just gross and if you haven't got the self-control to respect someone's diary and privacy what else is permissable to invade? Just in case... no good reason I'm afraid. If your kid is in imminent danger for sure I would do what was needed including putting myself in danger tho I can't think what diary-snooping would accomplish unless some info/dates etc were required for dangerous predicament the cops would probably have read it in such a case. Seems like a parent may think they can control the events and outcomes in their child's life by snooping but it would likely have the opposite effect by destroying any open communication that may exist and which is actually essential to your child safety and well-being. Sounds like the mom who phoned in radio show is super paranoid but probably genuinely concerned for her child but with no recourse to 'find out' what she wants to know. As a mum I want to know whats going on in my childs life but some things are not for me to know.


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## forthebest (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cherie2* 
ok I know this thread is getting old, but I had this thought today... what about teaching our children that the "right to privacy" is an important thing?

We live in a dangerous time of legislation trying harder and harder to diminish citizens right to privacy. If we raise our kids thinking they have no right to their privacy they may well grow up thinking this is not an important or deserved right. Then where would we be?


Absolutely!!


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Tried to get through the whole thing but around page 10, it started to get pretty redundant... I skipped to page 14 and read from there, and was pleased to see the direction the conversation had taken... So I'm here with my







:

I agree w/ pp's re; Respect. For example:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Grylliade* 
I think the missing term in this thread is 'respect'. This isn't about rights or what one "deserves", but respect for one another. I try to not do things to my child that I would not want done to me. Because I respect him as a human being.
If I felt that I needed to do some investigating for the sake of protecting his life then I'm sure that I would. But I would want to try and talk with him first before it came to that. And I hope that he would do the same things for me if for some reason it ever became necessary.

I think that to presume one would _know_ if something were wrong (like feelings of suicidal depression) is naive. I have lost count of the friends and family-members (in-laws and extended) whose own families dropped the awareness-ball til it was nigh too late (and sometimes actually too late... lost a few friends because of parental denial).

When faced with the fact that a child is in crisis, too many parents deny the authenticity of those feelings, or their own part in creating an atmosphere that doesn't support their child's growth and trust, thus contributing greatly to the disparaging feelings youths experience.

Snooping itself can very much contribute to the feelings of discontent and disconnect tweens and teens suffer from. I feel strongly that cultivating a climate of consultation, trust, mutual respect and vulnerability, mutual full-disclosure, and unconditionality can ease the path that tweens and teens are destined to walk.. that is, one of questioning, doubting, insecurity, unsurity, frustration and anxiety.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cherie2* 
ok I know this thread is getting old, but I had this thought today... what about teaching our children that the "right to privacy" is an important thing?

We live in a dangerous time of legislation trying harder and harder to diminish citizens right to privacy. If we raise our kids thinking they have no right to their privacy they may well grow up thinking this is not an important or deserved right. Then where would we be?

This totally falls in line with Respect.

What would be the outcome if, instead of allowing a relationship deteriorate to the point of _having_ to snoop, we included our children WHOLLY in the process of inquiry, from the outset? How would our relationships be different if this was an open discussion from very young, if our children _knew_ we are looking after them, but that they are ultimately their own steward?

For example, my mom didn't do a _ton_ of things right, but one thing she _did_ do was constantly repeat these words: "You can always tell me anything, I will always be there for you. I can't always be _with_ you, I can't stop you from doing things I wouldn't choose for you, and I might not like what you tell me, but I'll always hear you. Sometimes you might find you have no one else to turn to, but you can always tell me _anything_. You'll never surprise, disappoint, or hurt me by talking to me."

I kind of got sick of hearing it through my teen years... and then when things like sex and drugs came up, and the only people I had to turn to were my equally confused and directionless friends, those words would ring in my mind and I decided to put it to the test. "We'll just see how much she can handle..." So I told her... everything. The first time I believed I was ready for sex, my plan, what I thought... the first time I did hallucinogens, the time I cheated on my boyfriend, skipping school, even when I did _worse_ things I knew she would _abhor_, I told her. She never missed a beat. She didn't like _most_ of what I told her, but she knew that by cultivating that atmosphere of consultation and presence, I would come to her, and she therefore had a front-row seat to everything, rather than having to dig. She never showed signs of judgement, or disappointment. She just listened and helped me by asking open-ended questions that usually allowed me to arrive at the answers myself.

With dd I plan to utilize what I learned from my mom, and more.

There should be no problem opening a conversation with a _person_ about concerns you have about them and the choices they may or may not be making. Those conversations may not yeild the information you're seeking, but often will act as avenues to further communication later. The PSA commercials may be trite, but they're right... it all starts with talking.

Young people are _going_ to have sex. They are _going_ to be faced with drugs. They are _going_ to face unhappiness, evil, darkness and depression... There's no stopping the world around them. Snooping makes parents one of _them_... the enemy. We have to _ally_ with our children, be the presence in their lives they will need to be able to count on.

I _already_ don't like some of what dd tells me, and she's only 4! But I listen, and I let her know I Respect her.

How do you plan to be available? What kind of dialogues do you have now? Do they know they can tell you anything... _can_ they?


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## Phoenix~Mama (Dec 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrennaMama* 
When faced with the fact that a child is in crisis, too many parents deny the authenticity of those feelings, or their own part in creating an atmosphere that doesn't support their child's growth and trust, thus contributing greatly to the disparaging feelings youths experience.

Snooping itself can very much contribute to the feelings of discontent and disconnect tweens and teens suffer from. I feel strongly that cultivating a climate of consultation, trust, mutual respect and vulnerability, mutual full-disclosure, and unconditionality can ease the path that tweens and teens are destined to walk.. that is, one of questioning, doubting, insecurity, unsurity, frustration and anxiety.

....

Young people are _going_ to have sex. They are _going_ to be faced with drugs. They are _going_ to face unhappiness, evil, darkness and depression... There's no stopping the world around them. Snooping makes parents one of _them_... the enemy. We have to _ally_ with our children, be the presence in their lives they will need to be able to count on.









Nicely done post! I agree 100% with everything you said especially the above quoted parts. You had an awesome Mother and sound like you are being one as well!









This is exactly what I am hoping to acheive in my household.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrennaMama* 
I _already_ don't like some of what dd tells me, and she's only 4! But I listen, and I let her know I Respect her.

How do you plan to be available? What kind of dialogues do you have now? Do they know they can tell you anything... _can_ they?

Actually, I was a person who posted that my child at almost 5 already doesn't want to tell me some things, despite my frequently stated unconditional love and reassurances that he can tell me anything, and that I won't be upset with anything he has to tell me, and I'm there for him. So I don't know what the future holds for us. He is very perfectionistic and very hard on himself (despite DH and I talking about our own struggles and dealing with not doing everything right the first time and how making mistakes is how you learn, and you need to practice, etc. etc.), so sometimes when he perceives *in himself* a wrongdoing or mistake, he doesn't want to talk to me about it even though I've told him repeatedly that I'm not bothered by the situations...or at least only bothered inasmuch as he may have hurt his sister, or damaged something...but it's not guilt ridden, long lasting upset or anything approaching judgement or shaming.

Soooooo...I'm not sure where we will end up, based on his personality. I can only do so much to tell him and show him that he can always come to me...in the end, he has to actually come to me. And if he doesn't, then where am I left as a parent trying to keep my kid safe if he appears to be going down a destructive path?

Sex doesn't register on my radar so long as they are being careful, and that will be a frequent conversation in our household starting pretty early on. But drugs, and other risky behaviors? If he won't talk to me because he's disappointed in himself and thinks I'll be disappointed in him too, what do I do then?

I grew up in a nonjudgemental, open household where I talked to my parents about a lot of topics, so I'm familiar with the kind of open, respectful, trusting atmosphere. But that's only as good as the person who is willing to share, KWIM?

I am not a person that is going to go snooping for snooping's sake, just to keep tabs on my kid. I intend to know their friends, and their friends' parents, and know where they are, etc. to be involved and connected. Nonetheless, if I saw troubling signs in my child and they wouldn't talk to me about what was going on, I wouldn't *not* look around their room to see if there was anything I could find out that would help me talk to them more effectively. IMO, privacy is not that absolute a right.

And I see it as kind of a leap to go from, "if you're in trouble I might look through your stuff" to "The government should be able to do anything they want to you". So many opportunities to talk to your kids about nuance, and the differences in relationship with people and larger entities.


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## MG01 (Nov 17, 2008)

I've been following this thread for awhile.. some very interesting points! I remember growing up, I had a fair amount of privacy most of the time, but it was certainly not considered a right or an expectation. Interestingly enough, due to the occasional incidents where my privacy was disregarded, I never felt secure, even though more often than not, I was given a fair amount of space growing up. I had my own bedroom and could close and lock my door most of the time, have time to myself in the bathroom, etc. but I honestly remember thinking at times, fully convinced, that there were cameras in my room, or if I was on the phone that my parents were listening on the other line. There were times when my parents took the door off my bedroom to punish me, read my journals, etc. so there were definite invasions of privacy, but the hardest thing for me was trying to understand what I could expect and what was a normal amount of privacy to have. Since it had been invaded at times, I never really felt that I was guaranteed it. And I definitely got the line that this is my house and I make the rules, you are just living in it. That is a horrible feeling to have as a child! I know it was said out of frustration, but it bothers me that parents can have that attitude, that a member of their family is less than them because they don't pay the mortgage- you chose to bear a child, of course they are going to live in your house and of course you are going to pay the bills! That does not change their basic rights. And I don't mean to make it into some legal issue of rights either; for me the most significant thing was just how I felt i was regarded as a member of my family- I think children grow up feeling much more secure if they feel they are regarded with respect and considered a member of their family unit, and lack or privacy or comments like that disrupt that.

I know in my case, I also felt from a very early age that I could not talk to my parents about things. I remember several incidents when I was in elementary/middle school where I would try to talk to my mom about something that happened at school or something I was feeling or something that worried me, and she would find something to question or criticize or punish.. don't use that word, or why didn't you do this differently, or you shouldn't be talking about that or doing that.. I think she just wasn't used to communicating openly about difficult things, and didn't realize that what I needed was just someone to listen and not judge/question.. so by the time it got to difficult situations coming up as a teen, I knew I couldn't talk to her, which didn't help anything. I still wound up drinking and experimenting with drugs and having sex, but I couldn't be honest, so I would up having to lie as well, and probably took more risks than necessary. If I could have told her where I was going and something happened, she would know where I was, but if I had to lie, well, who knows where I wound up that night. If I was out drinking and couldn't call for a safe ride home, I then end up riding home with a drunk driver, or even driving drunk. I am not proud of it, but kids do those things, and I did too. I didn't always make the best decisions, but I was generally smart enough to know how much alcohol I could drink without overdoing it, or not to go off alone with a guy I didn't know well, etc. Still, I was young and reckless, and knowing I could talk to my parents and seek their support would have been nice. But then I suppose that puts parents in a tough position- they don't like what you are doing and feel like they have a responsibility to stop you from doing it, so maybe it's easier for them not to know. But it's not like they were in denial- they genuinely had no idea, and when I lied, I did a good job of it. Once my parents caught on, they absolutely went through my room. But when it gets to that point, it is way too late. I spent my whole childhood and adolescence feeling insecure about privacy, and feeling like I had to hide things (like journals). I spent that whole time feeling like I couldn't be honest with my parents about things. By the time I was actually doing things that could have been problematic, searching my things just made me feel more violated and angry, and reinforced my feeling, as someone said above, of them being the enemy and out to get me.

I am due in February so I have some time to think about these things, but I know I absolutely want my child to feel like they have their own space and right to privacy, and that they are deserving of respect. I can imagine it is hard as a parent to respond lovingly or neutrally when you are angry or worried, but I know kids will test you, and how you respond builds that foundation for later. I understand parents have the responsibility to look out for their kids and make sure they stay safe and do what they need to do, but my thinking is that I really cannot make their choices for them- they may be my child and a minor but they are an independent human being with free will. I can only hope to do my best to instill good judgment and more than that, learn to trust that they will do what is right for them, accept that they will make some mistakes and learn from those mistakes, and try to be a part of their life so that I can be a source of support and someone they trust enough to come to with concerns or questions. I know that some of the things I did growing up were dangerous, and I know as a parent it has to be the scariest thing in the world to think your child might harm themselves or someone else through a bad choice, and I understand wanting to intervene in any way necessary, but I also know that in my case, all the snooping and threats in the world didn't help or change things. It came down to me, and I had to make my choices and learn from my mistakes. Obviously it differs with a seven year old and a seventeen year old, but I think the threads of open communication and respect apply no matter what the child's age. I know most of this is already easier said than done- it's probably much easier to talk about how one ideally wants to parent than to come face to face with those difficult issues in the moment, so I hope no one minds me chiming in here. But I do feel that from my experiences with my parents, I definitely think about these issues through that lens and feel strongly about them..

I am actually a lot closer with my mom now, and am able to talk with her about a lot more than I could in the past; it's a lot better now. But occasionally the old issues will come up, and it took some time for me to feel somewhat safe opening up to her without feeling that I was going to be criticized or punished, and there are still some things that are off-limits, because I don't feel safe talking them, and I know she might not respond well or in a way that is helpful to me. What I want more than anything with my child is to have that openness from the beginning where s/he never feels like I am going to disapprove of her or make her feel bad for sharing something with me, but again, I am sure it is easier said than done.. something to strive for though! And btw I don't mean that I never will disapprove of something my child has done, just that it doesn't have to lead automatically to a comment or action that would make her feel I am disapproving of her as a person, or taking a punitive or authoritarian approach that doesn't solve anything. I just think the parent-child relationship should ideally go above and beyond the-big-authority figure-and-the-little-person-to-be-guided model, and I think basic parameters on privacy and respect will go a long way towards that.


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## NettleTea (Aug 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama_Gaia* 
And I definitely got the line that this is my house and I make the rules, you are just living in it. That is a horrible feeling to have as a child! I know it was said out of frustration, but it bothers me that parents can have that attitude, that a member of their family is less than them because they don't pay the mortgage- you chose to bear a child, of course they are going to live in your house and of course you are going to pay the bills! That does not change their basic rights. And I don't mean to make it into some legal issue of rights either; for me the most significant thing was just how I felt i was regarded as a member of my family- I think children grow up feeling much more secure if they feel they are regarded with respect and considered a member of their family unit, and lack or privacy or comments like that disrupt that.

Yes! I agree completely! Those type of remarks only serve to leave a child feeling insignificant and unwanted. I grew up around comments like that and often felt very low and undeserving. It's stuff that _still_ haunts me at times.


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## StarJune (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Grylliade* 
Yes! I agree completely! Those type of remarks only serve to leave a child feeling insignificant and unwanted. I grew up around comments like that and often felt very low and undeserving. It's stuff that _still_ haunts me at times.









: I agree fully. I have been following along and have been amazed at the responses here







:. It seems that some would give more respect to a visiting stranger than their own children.







:


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