# Using the playpen as punishment.... GD or not?



## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

DS is 14 months old and will NOT LISTEN TO ME. I know, normal behaviour. But I am nearing the end of my rope. Since we put up the Christmas trees he has been constantly putting things off. We have nothing breakable on it but I am still tired of going behind him and putting everything back up. So I started putting him in his playpen everytime he tears something off the tree. He doesn't usually cry when I do that (and when he does I take him out and shower him with kisses and hugs and reassure him that I love him). After maybe 2 minutes in the playpen I take him out, tell him I love him, and explain that he can't touch the tree. Is this GD? I am not letting him CIO, simply removing him from where he will be tempted to touch the tree.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

:LOL
I have done this with dd a few times lately.
have been wondering this too.
But for me, I try really hard to make an environment that is sfae for her to play.We aren't doing a tree this year, and if we did it would be small and up way high








I personally think 1 1/2 is really too young to fully understand. Dd just turned two and I have only done this a few times- when she is causing physical harm to ds.If she doesn't listen when doing something harmful- in she goes, and I warn her fairly. It has really helped and I try to be as lovin and firm as possible. But again-it's only when she hurts him.And I try to explain alot.HTH And a min can seem like forever to a kid-so I try to be breif about it.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

For starters, fourteen months is way too young to remember that you don't want him to touch the tree. It isn't realistic to expect him not to do it. So, on that note, I would say that at his age, applying any sort of punishment for that behavior is unrealistic.

If you want him away from the tree at this age, the thing to do is to make sure that he doesn't get near it. If you can't watch him in that room, don't let him in the same room as it.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

I agree with him being too young to override his impulse to grab the pretty, shiny balls. :LOL

Maybe put the tree in the playpen instead?


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

I second putting the tree in the playpen.








I really think 14m is far too young to be disciplined enough not to play with the ornaments. Can you place all the ornaments higher up? I've spent the past couple of christmases with the top-heavy tree. Now it is bottom heavy as the kids put the decorations on themselves and they are all so low!!
What you are describing is kind of a time-out scenerio and it's just too complex for a baby that young, In my opinion.
Also, the baby will tire of the game after a while if you just let him play with some ornaments placed low. Try putting a few down low and don't sweat it if he removes them. Don't put them back right away. I pretty much guarantee the novelty will wear off.


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## oldcrunchymom (Jun 26, 2002)

I don't know if it's GD, but can I borrow your playpen to put my cat in? He's knocked all the balls off the bottom of our tree like 75 times in the past two weeks and it's driving me insane.


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Lisa, my cats, too. Not only that, but we have my son's electric Lego train going around the tree, and my old crotchety cat bats at the cars and knocks them off the track when it's going.







It's actually fun to watch, but it's a hassle connecting all the cars again, as they're held together by magnetic pieces.

Anyway, back to the baby....

When my oldest was that little, I just didn't put up a tree. It seemed like asking for trouble.

When my youngest was that little, we just constantly monitored him. He wasn't a grabby baby, anyway.... and we lived in a rambling old house and could put the tree up in a room that was gated off.

Unless you're going to use your playpen as ONLY a place for time-out, I would stop doing what you're doing. One of these days you might need to plop your child in there for a few minutes and he'll associate it with something negative.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Not only can your DS not remember to not touch the tree, I doubt he is making a very clear connection between touching the tree & the playpen. Additionally, since the tree is only there for a month there is no *need* for him to not touch it as a life long lesson. Could you just put ornaments you don't mind him taking off on the bottom? Put the tree in the playpen? Not let him in that room if you don't have time to keep him distracted?


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Hahaha...I've seen the tree...WAY too big for the playpen. I would suggest putting a gate around it, or just do what we do...breakable ornaments on the top, baby-safe ornaments on the bottom, and absolutely no hooks...


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## amethystrse (Dec 4, 2004)

I never used to use the playpen as punnishment. But that was because when ds was at a baby sitter's house they would use our play pen as a crib for him to sleep in if we needed to be out late. Or when we traveled we used it sometimes for him to take safe naps in when at a house that wasn't baby friendly. I was always afraid that if we used it to punnish him then he would associate the play pen as a bad place and wouldn't sleep in it. We wound up only using it as a portable crib. lol

If you can find a way perhaps put something infront of the tree or around it that he can't get past. He's too young to understand rules. He's starting to learn that he can affect his environment. He doesn't understand good vs not good yet. So, any form of punnishment at this point is really useless IMO.

To answer your question, though, putting your ds in the play pen for a while to keep him from the tree could be seen as GD. Especially since you don't put him in there and then just let him cry it out or something. At least IMO.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

I think it's a little much to expect from him. We've had a few years of only having decorations on the top half. Even this year, with an almost 4 year old and a 2 1/2 yr old, I only put non-breakable ornaments on the bottom half. The kids like to undecorate and redecorate the tree a lot. You're essentially putting a 14 month old in a time out. Do you really think he gets it?


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## Meli65 (Apr 29, 2002)

It sounds to me like the playpen is being used as punishment (IF you touch the tree,THEN you go into the playpen) and in that sense I'd say no, it's not GD. I also agree that 14 months is way too young to learn these kind of lessons.

We just put up our first tree this year since ds was born -- he turned three last month. It was no big deal not having one and a lot easier than dealing with him taking all the ornaments down constantly, which he surely would have done no matter what we did or said about it.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Thanks for all the opinions! I guess I just need to chill about it. I'll try. But it's so gosh darn hard when he's tearing things off for the hundreth time (mainly the garland. That and a few fake flowers are the only things he can reach on it). Breathe in.... breathe out....







I just have this fear that if I let him "get away" with things like this now then he's never going to listen to me. It doesn't help that I have other people living here questioning what I do with him and why. Even my 8 year old sis is trying to give me parenting advice







:

Like AllyRae said--- it's too big for the playpen. It's actually 3 trees, all 6 1/2 or 7 ft (I can't remember) tall, all together in a corner.

We had considered not putting a tree up, or putting a small one up somewhere where he can't reach it, but I didn't think that would be fair to my 8 year old sister (I live with her and my dad). I know she likes having the tree up.

"Unless you're going to use your playpen as ONLY a place for time-out, I would stop doing what you're doing."

I have very very rarely used the playpen since he was born. Mostly as a place to store things and, once he got mobile, as a gate to block off a doorway. I now have a gate for that hallway so cleaned out the playpen and was getting ready to take it down. I think I will take it down.

Thanks


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

It is scary thinking that your kid is never going to listen to you. It is scary, too when your little baby starts getting this kind of face







. But I think we have a better chance of having our kids listen to us if we have as few rules as safely possible. The broken record routine gets old fast in my house even though I can probably count on one hand the unnegotiable rules I have to keep repeating. It is all about breathing and thinking "is this really worth all the fuss?". It is so good to come and find more creative ways to deal with these annoying hobbies our children like to take up.








Oh ya, just a thought, is the tree secured to the wall? Sounds like a big tree and could be pretty dangerous. I only ask because our tree fell about a million times last year due to my children's redecorating obsession. luckily, it's not huge and it's fake and light weight but you should have seen it by Christmas day. It got a bit embarressing when friends dropped by. :LOL


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

mamajama- no, the trees are not secured to the wall BUT dad did make a base out of wood (it's about 4ft by 4ft) that all 3 of the trees are secured on. Pretty impossible for him to tip them (I hope). This child is constantly climbing on everything so I knew we couldn't just have the tree sitting there!

Okay, I had to take a quick pic







Here is what is so temping in the eyes of a 14 month old... :LOL

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...100_2588-2.jpg

And the little rascal a couple days ago...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...100_2560-2.jpg


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

:LOL Oh that's so cute. You didn't say THREE TREES in your OP! That's far beyond the scope of my advice-giving capabilities.







:
That picture of him in front of the tree is priceless, I can see the gleam in his eyes. You're on your own with this one, best of luck and may the collective force of all the loving mamas be with you.
Kidding. Thanks for sharing though.


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## fiikske (Jun 29, 2004)

Although I know your dd is real young, but here it works to ask her to put the thing back up. So is it an option to put the "easy" things down below, things that she can easily hang in the tree again? I know my dd is really proud of herself after having removed a thing and than hung it herself back again.

But then I guess, the Xmas-tree is just an example. I'm not really into time-outs, and theplaypen was never used here.

Fiikske


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

A decorated tree in the house is one of the best toys a child could imagine. I'd settle for a few years with a tree (or 3 lol) that's decorated in toddler-proof style on the bottom, and then have fun un- and redecorating it for a month with the little one. Garlands, homemade playdough decorations, plastic balls... My dh and dd had a great time one year sitting 2 yards from the tree and throwing the plastic balls in there.
These could become among your best memories of childhood (and the best photos, as you've found out







)

Maybe your sis can have her very own tree in her room to make up for the discomfort?

ETA: I don't think it's gentle discipline. It's gentler than physical discipline, of course, but I don't believe that a timeout for a 14 mo is gentle. A child who can't understand that something attractive put within reach is not to be played with, should not be removed from the object but learn to interact with it in a way that's acceptable to both parties involved. JMO


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Fourteen months is way too young to worry about his 'getting away' with things. He is learning and exploring, and I would not try to restrict those things. There was a thread a few weeks ago about Christmas trees, and someone said they had been able to teach their child to touch with one finger. That allowed the baby to explore, but not be destructive.

Personally, I would not do time out for a child so young. They cannot understand it yet. They think they are just learning. They have no idea of right and wrong. For us, it is just too punitive, and we don't want to punish exploration.


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## amybw (Jul 12, 2004)

I have an 11 mth old and we are managing the tree very well! He has his own ornaments down low and he is allowed to have those. he is in such awe over it that he stares at it for a few minutes before grabbing it








: and then very gently goes toward it. Like he is leary or something LOL Whenver he tries to grab lights, etc, i jsut say "here's your Elmo ornament " or "here's your ___" whatever... and he giggles. I am surprised he does this. hope it works next year!









I agree about the playpen. We have to use the playpen once in a great while for real purposes so I think associating it with "time out" or whatever you want to call it is a bad idea.

have a great holiday!









Amy


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

Oooooh, a toddler and a fullsized tree, where angels fear to tread ... :LOL

We have a 3-footer (fake) and it goes up on top of a dresser beyond where dd can't reach it. It's the same tree that, when ds was a toddler, went up on the entertainment center where _he_ couldn't reach it.

*This* year we actually duct taped the stand down to the dresser, because we also have a houseful of cats, and I almost wrung all their necks last year after they tipped the







thing over -- fragile ornaments and all -- THREE TIMES.

I think I'd go insane with a full-size tree. No, I *know* I'd go insane.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

I think it's totally reasonable to use the playpen IF you are using at a safe place to put him while you are using the restroom, cooking a meal, etc. to keep him out of the tree. But NOT as a punishment.


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## mommaluv321 (Aug 14, 2004)

here's an alterative to taking the tree down, play-skool or tykies (i cant remember) makes some really cool gates that inter-lock w/ each other that you could put around the tree. My dad has some for my neice that he got at a consignment shop and they work really great, as my neice is 16 mos and she can't get over-under-thru them! might be a great pre-x-mas gift idea from grandpa? not to mention they are great for all kinds of other stuff, makes a great safe-baby zone. HTH!


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

My son is 15 months and we skipped having a tree this year. We will be at my in-laws' over Christmas and they always have an enormous tree but it's in their formal living room and nobody ever spends a lot of time in there anyway. So the tree there won't be that big a deal. However my MIL has a million little Christmas decorations on every corner table, side table, bookshelf, counter, etc., that she wanted DS to learn not to disturb. So last weekend she was teaching him to touch the decorations gently with just one finger, and saying, "One finger, one finger," over and over. I was skeptical but he caught on really fast and I was so proud when he one-fingered some of my SIL's decorations at her house, without even being prompted! Maybe you could give that a try.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fiikske*
Although I know your dd is real young, but here it works to ask her to put the thing back up. So is it an option to put the "easy" things down below, things that she can easily hang in the tree again? I know my dd is really proud of herself after having removed a thing and than hung it herself back again.

But then I guess, the Xmas-tree is just an example. I'm not really into time-outs, and theplaypen was never used here.

Fiikske

GREAT advice. I totally agree with the majority of the responders. Timeout/playpen is probably better than physical discipline, but it's still shaming/coercion. It's hard, but I try not to use those techniques with DD.

PS. We STILL don't have our tree up yet.







:


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## Gabrielle's Mom (Aug 10, 2003)

I saw SIL do this with my nephew (thought she was nuts at the time, this was before I became a mom and did it too). She didn't tell him not to touch things, instead she showed him "one finger" or "gently". She would show him an appropriate way to touch things like plants, the tree, etc. She said once she stopped saying no all the time, he stopped destroying things for the most part and used one finger. I tell DD "pretty tree, pretty ornaments, be gentle" and it works. Good luck... that tree would even tempt me :LOL


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

I don't think punishment is gentle, and I doubt your 14 mo is internalizing the delayed lectures. However, I can see the motion of putting him in the playpen as a potentially helpful thing, depending on context. For example, if you're doing it matter-of-factly, and he isn't upset, then at least it is having the immediate affect of interrupting the ornament grabbing. At 14 mo, my dd was still SO much more responsive to physical than to verbal communication. Whatever my response, it would definitely have had to involve touching and guiding her body in some way. Picking her up and moving her was a way of totally interrupting what was going on. Secondarily, I imagine it being possible that the repetition of always having this activity interrupted, matter-of-factly, would eventually give your ds the idea that it isn't done. As long as you aren't too focused on that as a goal.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Thanks







After I wrote last I stopped putting him in the playpen. Instead when he starts taking down the garland or hands me one of the ornaments I ask him to "put it back on the tree, make the tree pretty again". He seems to really like doing that and will now take something off, put it back, and start laughing/grinning. That's a good compramise for me as now I don't have to chase him everywhere putting stuff back!


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## GeorgiaGalHeidi (Apr 16, 2004)

Joey is 16 months old, and I feel that is to young to use disicipline over the tree. Look at it in their eyes. There is this NEW BIG BRIGHT TWINKLY tree filled with TOYS(I am sure they think the ornaments are like toys-they are cute and just their size. So, I looked at your tree...it is super tempting! We have moved every single ornament except the bells to the top where he can't get it. So, no garland or ornaments in his reach. The bells are safe and totally not breakable. After two days, he got bored with the bells, and, since he has nothing to touch now, he ignores it. So, I would suggest making the reachable area less attractive!


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

We have always had a real tree which has been its own deterant towards messing with the stuff on it.









It sounds like one of yur worries is that you have told him not to do this and he is still doing it and you want to teach him what no means. (except you may not want to use the word no but saying no any other way is still saying no) So is putting him in the playpen getting this point across? is he making the connection? Doesn't sound like it. So what are your options then assuming the tree is off limits.

* give him his own little tree with wooden or plastic ornamenrts he can decorate until his heart is content. Look for trees and ornaments at the dollar store. a table top tree should be enough and a few large ornaments should be enough for him to put on and take off. I think playmobil even has some great ones.

* put him in the play pen if you know you can't keep him frm the tree. put him in there (doesn't sound like he mnds it) before he touches the tree. As a way to avoid the confrontation all together. really if you can't be with your child every minuite to redirect and teach them you either have to accept that they will get away with some stuff or you have to block them from doing those things you don';t want them to. give them a safe place to be where they can't make trouble. So if he is doing this every time yousit down to pee put him in the lay pen when you are in the bathroom.

* Take away all the decoration he can touch or just leave ones he can take o0ff and accept that replacing ornaments is a part of christmas. Evertime somene takes an ornament off the tree it gets moved up higher.

Someone mentioned trees anchored to walls. I have done this before. I put hooks in the base board and ran topes from the top of the tree to the hooks. It was a very crooked tree LOL


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Steph, that's great - I'm so glad that you found a solution to this potentially stressful conflict that has turned it into a fun game for you both!







Now *that* is GD.


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

I'm going to take this opportunity to be inspired by you, because I just got back from several hours of shopping in Manhattan with my dd. I'm feeling GD challenged. (You know, that feeling like, can't I please just squish her?!)


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