# Should parents be charge with a crime if...



## GranoLLLy-girl (Mar 1, 2005)

they accidentally leave their child in a hot car and the child dies?
The issue has been all over the news today with the mother (who was an assistant principal) who accidentally left her toddler in the car and attended faculty meetings for her job. The toddler died.

Several years ago, a man that I didn't really know but knew of through the church, returned from a mission trip with jet lag and left his three year old daughter in the car. She died. This was in Virginia and the last I heard he was charged with child neglect. I do not know what ultimately happened.

I have also heard of people who knowingly left their children in the car (who later have died) because they didn't have anyone to watch them. This, to me, is a different story.

What are your thoughts?


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## KJoslyn78 (Jun 3, 2007)

i think to me you already showed the difference... someone who KNOWINGLY leaves a child in the car (recently locally we had someone leave 2 kids in the car to tanning







: ) as well as a mother who took a different way to work and forgot to drop off her 5 month old at day care.

If i remember correctly, the kids from the woman who ran into tan were ok and they charged that woman for endangerment... but the daycare baby died :cry The DA decided not to proscuate the mother who's 5 month old baby, as he felt she already recievied enough punishment with the loss of her child.

I think it takes looking into what happened, why it happened... not just if it happened - KWIM?

I think it would be wise if car makers could make some sort of alarm that could go off if a seat belt was left clipped after a set amount of time (or something simuliar).


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## spedteacher30 (Nov 20, 2005)

I don't think they should be charged if it is truly clear it was an accident. I think they should seek a ton of counseling, and time management support.

There is a case in my area right now where they are pressing neglect charges because the mom spent the entire drive gabbing on her cell phone, and the DA is saying she could have been less distracted except she chose to make social phone calls for 25 minutes as she drove...

...if I were on that jury, I don't think I could find her guilty, though.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

It's such a terrible thing -- I can't imagine the torture and anguish that parents who do that on accident experience -- the sickening realization that they forgot their child in the car, the desperate race to see if the child is okay, then the dread and despair when they realize that the child succumbed to the heat. As awful as it is, and as much as I've heard people say, "How could they just *forget* about their child??", I do believe that such a situation can happen to otherwise responsible, loving, well-meaning parents, and of course the pain of losing their child far outweighs any punishment the state can dole out.

However, involuntary manslaughter laws exist for a reason -- not all deaths are intentional acts, but it doesn't absolve them from the label of "crime."


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## GranoLLLy-girl (Mar 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KJoslyn78* 

I think it would be wise if car makers could make some sort of alarm that could go off if a seat belt was left clipped after a set amount of time (or something simuliar).

NASA actually created just such a device...however, because of the cost, it hasn't been mandated. It's some kind of alarm that goes off if you take the key out of the ignition and there is an amount of weight still in the back seat. I am always willing to pay for technology if it means saving a life--like the alarms/sounds that go off if you are backing up and there is an object behind you.
When my guys were little, I used to move a toy bear (one for each child) from their seats to the front seat and then return them each time they were out of the seat--as a visual reminder. A sign or something else that you physically move each time (as long as you make yourself do it) is really helpful. It may seem like a hassle, but I'm all for it if it saves a life.
I think this kind of thing can happen more readily for those who don't always have their children with them. In other words, as a sahm, I ALWAYS have the kids with me, and it is rare when I go anywhere without them--and during those times that I am alone, I find that I check the seats for them anyway--as well as the rear view mirror. If it were the reverse I am not sure I would think to look behind me as often as I do now.


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## Blu Razzberri (Sep 27, 2006)

That's a hard question. You shouldn't ever leave your kids in the car (how often do we have the intention of running in for a quick sec, and lose track and emerge from the store 40 minutes later??).

I think there are situations where people truly forget; and those occurrences seem to be growing in number. It's my opinion that we as human beings are running ourselves to a "burnt out" state. The one-parent at home situation hardly exists anymore, and people have alot of extra daily life stuff on their plates, alot more stress; and alot less nutrition. Add it all up, and forgetting your child is asleep in his carseat behind you becomes such a simple thing to do. I can't imagine charging someone who's dealing with the grief of losing their child and it being their fault in this situation.

If the type of situation where they're leaving the kid in the car to go tanning....that's despicable and irresponsable. IMO, it should have a manslaughter charge.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

If investigation reveals it was a true accident and the parents are remorseful and grieving, no, I don't think charges should be filed.

If, however, the child was left by say, a DCP, even if it was an accident, charges should absolutely be filed.


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## momz3 (May 1, 2006)

If they purposely left their child in a car, yes. Does not matter what the "reason" is, it is no excuse.

If they "forgot" (I don't see how that can happen but I can imagine it does) then you will have to treat that case by case.


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## loriforeman (Aug 18, 2007)

what about the man that left his kid in the car...to run into the brothel?

or the ones that locked the baby in the car for over eight hours...to go hunt shrooms?

i think it depends on the reason...and what was going through the person's mind. were they completely exhausted? was there some post partum depression going on? did they think their SO had taken the child?

nothing is sadder than the death of a child. in many ways, it's the ultimate punishment.


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GranoLLLy-girl* 
they accidentally leave their child in a hot car and the child dies?

Ok, fine. I'll say it. Yes.

The primary responsiblility of any parent is to keep your child(ren) alive.

If your life is such (enter any reasoning you wish) that you cannot be mindful enough to remember that the child you put in the car, has not been taken out of the car...perhaps you need some childcare assistance.


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## KimProbable (Jun 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolalola* 
Ok, fine. I'll say it. Yes.

The primary responsiblility of any parent is to keep your child(ren) alive.

If your life is such (enter any reasoning you wish) that you cannot be mindful enough to remember that the child you put in the car, has not been taken out of the car...perhaps you need some childcare assistance.









:

This is what I was thinking, but worded much more eloquently.

If a parent is neglectful and a child is injured or killed the parent should be held accountable. End of story.


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## kkeris (Oct 15, 2005)

Yes, definitely.


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KimProbable* 

If a parent is neglectful and a child is injured or killed the parent should be held accountable. End of story.


Well I think most people would agree with that but how do you draw the line between what is neglect and what is an accident? Sometimes it's really not clear.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Needle in the Hay* 
Well I think most people would agree with that but how do you draw the line between what is neglect and what is an accident? Sometimes it's really not clear.

Which is the whole point of a trial by a jury of one's peers, surely?


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## veggiemomma (Oct 21, 2004)

Hmm...I guess what I keep thinking about this "accident" vs. "intentional" things is that generally people will lie to get out of trouble. "What officer? Oh, yes I accidentally FORGOT my kid in the car."







: Really, or did you just not have a babysitter, or you were tired of hearing the kid crying, or you decided you didn't like being a parent, or it was more important for you to tan than make sure your kids were safe? I am not saying that sometimes it isn't accidental. I am sure it is. But, if we start making a lawful distinction between the two, then people who intentionally abandon their children for hours will just lie and say it was an accident so they don't get jail time.

Here is my very harsh view on this topic. If you are so darn forgetful that you leave your precious baby in a boiling hot car to die the slow agonizing death of dehydration, heat stroke, hallucinations, rapid rise in blood pressure, severe headache, and death because literally their little innocent brains cook







: then I don't want you running around the streets. What else might you forget? This is a real hot button issue for me. I am so sick of seeing these parents on the news blubbering and saying "Oh, I just forgot little Timmy in the car for 12 hours while I went to work. Haven't *I* suffered enough?" Umm...no, you haven't. What about how much your innocent baby suffered. The fact that we have become a society that is so callus that we could FORGET so completely about our children that it causes their deaths is very disturbing and sickening to me.

Okay, stepping down off my soap box. Sorry to go off on a tangent about this, but it just caught me at the wrong time.


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flapjack* 
Which is the whole point of a trial by a jury of one's peers, surely?

So any time a child dies while in the care of his parents the parents should be charged with a crime and let a trial by jury work it out?


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## purposefulmother (Feb 28, 2007)

The law allows for cases of criminal negligence. Leaving your child in the car because you forgot would definitely fall under that umbrella in most cases. A higher charge, manslaughter maybe, would be more appropriate for a parent who leaves a child in the car knowingly.

But really, for the life of me, I cannot fathom leaving my child in the car by accident. How can you forget your child is in the car?

I absolutely think parents should be held liable if their child dies because of neglect like this. It's not an "accident." The child didn't wander into the car and lock himself in. The parent was fully responsbile for putting said child into the car and then leaving the child there.

A PP wrote that parent's first responsibility is to keep the children alive. ITA.


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## allegra (Aug 23, 2007)

Yes, definitely.

Let's say a man is driving and accidentally hits someone with his car. The man will be charged, even if he didn't kill the person on purpose. The same applies to when someone accidentally shoots another person. The laws don't say 'It applies to everybody except for those who've killed a relative.'

The same should apply when it comes to leaving a child locked into a car unattended. No law takes into account whether the person you accidentally killed was a relative of yours or not, why should this be an exception?

I'm sure the parent who does this feels terribly remorseful afterwards. I know the hectic way of life many people have to endure leads to forgetting important things all the time. But remorse shouldn't matter when it comes to apply the law. Or else everybody will start claiming they did things on accident so they can get out of the charges.


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## erin_d_a (Jun 27, 2007)

IN regards to this woman in Ohio, I think she should be charged with manslaughter and do time. I don't think in all cases, but in this one absolutely. Here's why:
The day before her daughter died in the car, she had the police called on her for doing the SAME THING! She had left her daughter in the car while she ran in somewhere, and it was on record that she had a history of doing this. This baby was only 5 months old, and she had left her in the car only the day before. Don't tell me she forgot, when she had a run in with the police less than 24 hours before her daughter died.


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allegra* 
Yes, definitely.

Let's say a man is driving and accidentally hits someone with his car. The man will be charged, even if he didn't kill the person on purpose. The same applies to when someone accidentally shoots another person. The laws don't say 'It applies to everybody except for those who've killed a relative.'


There are unfortunately lots of cases where a parent backed over his or her own child. Are all those parents charged with a crime (i'm asking this seriously as I don't know but I would have thought not). Is every parent whose child drowned while under his or her care charged with a crime first and questions are sorted out later?


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## JBaxter (May 1, 2005)

Ok I have 3 boys and worked full time with the first 2. I can ABSOLUTELY say I have never ever forgot one of my children. I have a hard time with what type of parent FORGETS a child sleeping or not. Thats just my opinion. Yes she should be charged with something. Neglect maybe she failed to keep her child alive with is the primary goal of parenting.


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## purposefulmother (Feb 28, 2007)

If the child drowns because of inadequate supervision, the parents can definitely be charged with a crime. The prosecuting attorney has the discretion to make that call.

Legally speaking, to be charged with an intentional crime you must be able to foresee the consequences of the act. If you leave your child in a car and go inside an office building, a reasonable person should be able to foresee that something really, really bad can happen. If you toss your child into a tank with electric eels, you should be able to foresee that something bad will happen. If you let your child jump off the roof as an experiment, again, there is a forseeable consequence.

To be charged with criminal negligence, it must be proven that the supervising adult could have prevented the occurance by taking reasonable precautions, ie, by doing what a reasonable person would do; and I'm sorry, but reasonable people do NOT leave children in cars for any amount of time while unsupervised.

If you're walking down the block and a tree limb falls on your child, that was neither forseeable nor preventable; thus, an accident.


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## <~*MamaRose*~> (Mar 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
It's such a terrible thing -- I can't imagine the torture and anguish that parents who do that on accident experience -- the sickening realization that they forgot their child in the car, the desperate race to see if the child is okay, then the dread and despair when they realize that the child succumbed to the heat. As awful as it is, and as much as I've heard people say, "How could they just *forget* about their child??", I do believe that such a situation can happen to otherwise responsible, loving, well-meaning parents, and of course the pain of losing their child far outweighs any punishment the state can dole out.

However, involuntary manslaughter laws exist for a reason -- not all deaths are intentional acts, but it doesn't absolve them from the label of "crime."

I have not read all the responses yet because I agree with Limabean!!!!!


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
If investigation reveals it was a true accident and the parents are remorseful and grieving, no, I don't think charges should be filed.

If, however, the child was left by say, a DCP, even if it was an accident, charges should absolutely be filed.

ITA


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## veg n mama (Aug 29, 2007)

well, if someone else leaves your child in a car and child dies- should THEY be charged with a crime?

I think it's sad and awful and the parent will be suffering for a lifetime from an "accident" but it should still be brought to the courts.


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## Qestia (Sep 26, 2005)

Accidents happen, but if you accidentally leave your child locked in a hot car, or leave bleach where your toddler can drink it, or leave your gun where they can reach it, yes, you are negligent as a parent, and frankly if I ever did one of those BIG accidents I think it would help me process my guilt if I actually was held responsible by the law.


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## Rigama (Oct 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veggiemomma* 
Hmm...I guess what I keep thinking about this "accident" vs. "intentional" things is that generally people will lie to get out of trouble. "What officer? Oh, yes I accidentally FORGOT my kid in the car."







: Really, or did you just not have a babysitter, or you were tired of hearing the kid crying, or you decided you didn't like being a parent, or it was more important for you to tan than make sure your kids were safe? I am not saying that sometimes it isn't accidental. I am sure it is. But, if we start making a lawful distinction between the two, then people who intentionally abandon their children for hours will just lie and say it was an accident so they don't get jail time.

Here is my very harsh view on this topic. If you are so darn forgetful that you leave your precious baby in a boiling hot car to die the slow agonizing death of dehydration, heat stroke, hallucinations, rapid rise in blood pressure, severe headache, and death because literally their little innocent brains cook







: then I don't want you running around the streets. What else might you forget? This is a real hot button issue for me. I am so sick of seeing these parents on the news blubbering and saying "Oh, I just forgot little Timmy in the car for 12 hours while I went to work. Haven't *I* suffered enough?" Umm...no, you haven't. What about how much your innocent baby suffered. The fact that we have become a society that is so callus that we could FORGET so completely about our children that it causes their deaths is very disturbing and sickening to me.

Okay, stepping down off my soap box. Sorry to go off on a tangent about this, but it just caught me at the wrong time.

















: and 







to that whole post. I've been thinking about this since I read the op last night, trying to find compassion and a way of understanding HOW IN THE WORLD someone could just forget thier kid in the car for more than say, 30 seconds. I so get the sleep deprivation and exhaustion of parenthood. The stress of being a SAH parent or a WOH parent-I've done both. I get that we all forget things from time to time. But to forget your baby. Your child. When you can remember to grab your cell phone and ipod before heading into work or the mall or wherever...I don't get that. Not at all.

And yeah. What's to stop those parents who intentionally leave thier kids from lying? You can't make a distinction like that when it comes to crimes. Somehow "Gee, I didn't mean to rob that bank, it was an accident. I forgot that note and gun were in my hands" just wouldn't fly.


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## momz3 (May 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Needle in the Hay* 
There are unfortunately lots of cases where a parent backed over his or her own child. Are all those parents charged with a crime (i'm asking this seriously as I don't know but I would have thought not). Is every parent whose child drowned while under his or her care charged with a crime first and questions are sorted out later?

Yes!!! I guy I went to school with I think it was 3 yrs ago he accidentally backed over his 13 month old...he was charged with manslaughter.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:

Here is my very harsh view on this topic. If you are so darn forgetful that you leave your precious baby in a boiling hot car to die the slow agonizing death of dehydration, heat stroke, hallucinations, rapid rise in blood pressure, severe headache, and death because literally their little innocent brains cook then I don't want you running around the streets. What else might you forget? This is a real hot button issue for me. I am so sick of seeing these parents on the news blubbering and saying "Oh, I just forgot little Timmy in the car for 12 hours while I went to work. Haven't I suffered enough?" Umm...no, you haven't. What about how much your innocent baby suffered. The fact that we have become a society that is so callus that we could FORGET so completely about our children that it causes their deaths is very disturbing and sickening to me.
I completely agree with this. Yes parents should be charged. I just cannot understand how you forget your child in the car.


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veggiemomma* 
Hmm...I guess what I keep thinking about this "accident" vs. "intentional" things is that generally people will lie to get out of trouble. "What officer? Oh, yes I accidentally FORGOT my kid in the car."







: Really, or did you just not have a babysitter, or you were tired of hearing the kid crying, or you decided you didn't like being a parent, or it was more important for you to tan than make sure your kids were safe? I am not saying that sometimes it isn't accidental. I am sure it is. But, if we start making a lawful distinction between the two, then people who intentionally abandon their children for hours will just lie and say it was an accident so they don't get jail time.

Here is my very harsh view on this topic. If you are so darn forgetful that you leave your precious baby in a boiling hot car to die the slow agonizing death of dehydration, heat stroke, hallucinations, rapid rise in blood pressure, severe headache, and death because literally their little innocent brains cook







: then I don't want you running around the streets. What else might you forget? This is a real hot button issue for me. I am so sick of seeing these parents on the news blubbering and saying "Oh, I just forgot little Timmy in the car for 12 hours while I went to work. Haven't *I* suffered enough?" Umm...no, you haven't. What about how much your innocent baby suffered. The fact that we have become a society that is so callus that we could FORGET so completely about our children that it causes their deaths is very disturbing and sickening to me.

Okay, stepping down off my soap box. Sorry to go off on a tangent about this, but it just caught me at the wrong time.










You wrote my post for me! I absolutely agree 100%.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

DH has a buddy that forgot his infant son was in the car while he ran into a store for a few minutes.







:

I remember him telling us about it...he was emberassed and surprised that he had done it. He asked if it had ever happened to us.
Ummm...NO!!

At the time it was all I could do to not make this face







BUT he was being so sincere, you could tell it truly was an accident. I didn't want to make him feel any worse, but I really didn't know how to respond!! I didn't even think about what could have happened if it had been hot outside.

And for the record this is a pretty well balanced guy...not a Meth Head or anything. I think that he may have been on some anti depressants at the time, maybe that could have caused him to forget?? I just cant relate to this at all.

Also, not to sound sexist but I could see a male genuinely forgetting more easily than a female, ykim? Women just seemed to be wired to constantly remember everything, where as men tend to be more one track minded. And often not as tuned in to baby as Mom might be.

And Yes, I think you should be charged with a crime if you forget your child in the car and they die. That is just unacceptable.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
If investigation reveals it was a true accident and the parents are remorseful and grieving, no, I don't think charges should be filed.

If, however, the child was left by say, a DCP, even if it was an accident, charges should absolutely be filed.

I see absolutely no reason why parents should be held to a lower standard than daycare providers. I think each case should be carefully evaluated -- if the circumstances would prevent a parent from being prosecuted, I don't see why they shouldn't prevent a dcp from being prosecuted.

Of course, when a pareant pays someone else to care for her child and the child dies, the parent has other recourse besides criminal prosecution, if it's determined that the child's death was accidental and the dcp doesn't get prosecuted. There's always civil court.

The publicity alone would destroy or seriously damage the daycare provider's reputation -- in the same way that some say the parent whose neglect caused her child's death has "already been punished enough."


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *erin_d_a* 
IN regards to this woman in Ohio, I think she should be charged with manslaughter and do time. I don't think in all cases, but in this one absolutely. Here's why:
The day before her daughter died in the car, she had the police called on her for doing the SAME THING! She had left her daughter in the car while she ran in somewhere, and it was on record that she had a history of doing this. This baby was only 5 months old, and she had left her in the car only the day before. Don't tell me she forgot, when she had a run in with the police less than 24 hours before her daughter died.

That makes a HUGE difference IMO.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

everyone makes mistakes, forgets things. How sad for the people who have to live with the guilt that their carelessness killed someone.

I have fogotten my child in the car before. It happened. i couldn't believe it. I bent over to pick her up and she wasn't there. I have foggoten to pick my children up from daycare. I suppose thats not a lot different than forgetting to drop them off except nobody gets hurt.

I certainly can't stand in judgment of someone who sincerly forgets. weird things happen.and it is sad for everyone when it ends tragically.


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## <~*MamaRose*~> (Mar 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
everyone makes mistakes, forgets things. How sad for the people who have to live with the guilt that their carelessness killed someone.

I have fogotten my child in the car before. It happened. i couldn't believe it. I bent over to pick her up and she wasn't there. I have foggoten to pick my children up from daycare. I suppose thats not a lot different than forgetting to drop them off except nobody gets hurt.

I certainly can't stand in judgment of someone who sincerly forgets. weird things happen.and it is sad for everyone when it ends tragically.










I agree that anyone can make a mistake...I too have driven straight to work only to have my son ask me why he was coming to work with me as we were entering the parking lot. I get that things happen sometimes but if anything had resulted from our actions then I honestly believe that you and I deserved to be charged with something!


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## Trillian (Nov 21, 2006)

I believe intent is everything.

In cases where the parent either did not know the child was in the car or genuinely forgot, I would put it in the category of "tragic accident" and don't see the need to punish the parents further by charging them with a crime. Tragic accidents of all sorts _do_ happen to good, loving parents, and as horrible as it is, it doesn't make them criminals.

People who purposely leave their children in the car, either because they mistakenly believe to be safe or simply don't care, should be charged - at minimum - with involuntary manslaughter (criminally negligent homicide).


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## Zach'smom (Nov 5, 2004)

How do you forget that you have your child with you??? I really don't understand that. I have forgotten lots of things in my life. But in all my son's 5 years I have not forgotten that he was in the car with me.

I live one town over from the women that left her child in the car in Ohio. She now wants her job back at the school. Needless to say many people here are really unhappy with that. I personally would not trust my child with someone that forgot and left their own child to broil for hours in a car.


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## crazydiamond (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trillian* 
I believe intent is everything.

In cases where the parent either did not know the child was in the car or genuinely forgot, I would put it in the category of "tragic accident" and don't see the need to punish the parents further by charging them with a crime. Tragic accidents of all sorts _do_ happen to good, loving parents, and as horrible as it is, it doesn't make them criminals.

People who purposely leave their children in the car, either because they mistakenly believe to be safe or simply don't care, should be charged - at minimum - with involuntary manslaughter (criminally negligent homicide).

I completely agree.

Where do we draw the line?

If I'm tending to my infant and my two year old falls off the swingset and breaks her neck, am I a criminal? If I open my pantry door and a can of green beans falls off the shelf and hits my toddler in the head and causes damage, am I a criminal?

What I'm trying to say is that sometimes accidents happen. Sometimes the accident is the direct result of something the parent did or did not do, but that doesn't make it any less of an accident.

And to answer someone's question above. . .sometimes an accident _does_ involve CPS and the children are removed immediately. I know a couple in TX where the woman was babysitting a friend's infant and accidentally tripped and fell down the stairs. The little girl, unfortunately, sustained brain injury and later died. The couple's own two children were immediately removed and now, over 2.5 years later, still haven't been given full custody. No charges filed by the police and it was ruled an accident. But those children still can't live with their now divorced parents. Sad indeed.


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## Ellie'sMom (Aug 10, 2002)

There was a very sad case here recently where a mom asked a dad to meet her because she was late for a meeting. He thought she merely wanted him to park the car (they work for the same hospital, she as a pediatrician and he as a researcher), she thought he understood that she meant for him to take the baby to daycare. He parked the car, and the wee baby (3 months I think) was left in the car to die.

It was a tragic misunderstanding. I'm not sure what our society would get out of charging them with a crime. The parents in these situations have already paid a price. I am of course speaking of situations where it is truly an accident.

I heard an interview with someone who works for an organization that seeks to raise awareness about this issue, and they made the excellent point that as our society gets more and more hectic and achievement oriented, incidents like this will continue to increase in frequency. We're busy and multi-tasking, and our children are paying the price.


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## RedOakMomma (Sep 30, 2004)

There was a sad case in a town near ours:

"There will be no charges against a Cottage Grove woman whose baby died after being left in a car for more than 8 hours, Dane County District Attorney Brian Blanchard said Thursday."

"Blanchard [investigator] said this isn't a case of a caretaker deciding to risk the safety of a child for the sake of convenience -- or as part of a pattern of neglect or abuse.

Police say the mother was sleep-deprived and under a great deal of stress after driving to Madison in the middle of the night to comfort her 2-year-old developmentally disabled son, who was spending his first night in a care center.

The baby's father went to his daughter's day care Wednesday afternoon to pick her up but was told the girl had not been dropped off. He immediately called his wife, who rushed out to her car."

This case made my cry every time I heard a report on it. Basically these two parents were so overhwelmed with dealing with their special needs son that they couldn't function. This accident happened the day after an extremely traumatic night. As a mom of special needs twins, I understand that. I know how little support our society gives parents of special needs kids, and on certain days (like after spending 24 hours in the hospital after my son had brain surgery), I know I could be someone that would make a deadly mistake.

These parents live with the guilt. The tragedy isn't just the loss of the child, it's the impact this has on families, loved ones, and the parents who made the mistake in the first place. I can't condemn them.


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## jamsmama (Jul 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KJoslyn78* 
I think it would be wise if car makers could make some sort of alarm that could go off if a seat belt was left clipped after a set amount of time (or something simuliar).

Umm...I think this crosses the line into the "big brother" mentality. I leave my kids buckled in their carseats in my driveway and leave all of the doors open so that they can finish sleeping after falling asleep on the way home from somewhere. The alarm thing would just be creepy.


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## crazydiamond (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jamsmama* 
Umm...I think this crosses the line into the "big brother" mentality. I leave my kids buckled in their carseats in my driveway and leave all of the doors open so that they can finish sleeping after falling asleep on the way home from somewhere. The alarm thing would just be creepy.

Really? I imagine you stay outside with them, right?


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## AlwaysByMySide (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *erin_d_a* 
IN regards to this woman in Ohio, I think she should be charged with manslaughter and do time. I don't think in all cases, but in this one absolutely. Here's why:
The day before her daughter died in the car, she had the police called on her for doing the SAME THING! She had left her daughter in the car while she ran in somewhere, and it was on record that she had a history of doing this. This baby was only 5 months old, and she had left her in the car only the day before. Don't tell me she forgot, when she had a run in with the police less than 24 hours before her daughter died.

Thank you for bringing this up. This makes this case different than a lot of other cases, and this is what makes it NOT fall under "everyone makes mistakes".


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## ledzepplon (Jun 28, 2004)

Yes, I think they should be charged. You can accidentally run someone over and still get charged, or a child could accidentally drown in your pool and you could be charged. Neglect is a crime, manslaughter is a crime.

I also don't get the notion some here are putting forth that remorse = no consequences. Don't you think there are drunk drivers who are really sorry they killed their best friends or innocent strangers in car wrecks? Should they just get to say "sorry" and we all move on? Don't you think at least some of them live with heart-wrenching guilt? But they still did something terribly wrong, in violation of the law, that cost a life.

And I'm sorry, but I just don't get "forgetting" where your infant is for 8 hours.

Of course I do believe in clemency, so I don't think these people who claim to have made just one error in judgment should be in prison for years and years or anything. But not filing charges, to me, is akin to pretending a crime was never committed.


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## crazydiamond (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ledzepplon* 
And I'm sorry, but I just don't get "forgetting" where your infant is for 8 hours.


For some, like SAHP who take their children everywhere with them during the day, forgetting them for 8 hrs seems really difficult. I'll give you that one.

But for those that go off to work every morning for 8 hrs, we are _already_ away from our children for 8+ hrs a day. One mistake in the morning (forgot dad wasn't taking kids to daycare) and now the child _is_ forgotten for 8 hrs. I don't sit around at work all day wondering where my child is. . I just assume she's with the sitter like she is everyday. On the weekends, though, I'm in a totally different mindset.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crazydiamond* 
Really? I imagine you stay outside with them, right?


We used to let DS sleep in the car like that. There was no need to stay outside as we could hear him from in the house.

Our driveway goes right along the house. I can drive my car right up to my kitchen door.

Sorry to get OT


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## Qestia (Sep 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crazydiamond* 
For some, like SAHP who take their children everywhere with them during the day, forgetting them for 8 hrs seems really difficult. I'll give you that one.

But for those that go off to work every morning for 8 hrs, we are _already_ away from our children for 8+ hrs a day. One mistake in the morning (forgot dad wasn't taking kids to daycare) and now the child _is_ forgotten for 8 hrs. I don't sit around at work all day wondering where my child is. . I just assume she's with the sitter like she is everyday. On the weekends, though, I'm in a totally different mindset.

Really? Because I WOH and I think about DS throughout the day, I glance at the clock and think "they're probably at the park" or "he's probably napping." I also spend some time connecting with my DCP each morning. If I arrived at work and hadn't had that moment of chatting with her, I think I'd realize something was amiss (plus she'd call to see where we were).


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## absinthe (Mar 16, 2004)

I'll join a pp in saying that I forgot my newborn son in my car. I had just dropped my daughter off at preschool and stopped at a small petstore to pick up dogfood. My mom had just died a month before, I had just been released from the hospital for the second time after complications from an emergency c-section and for about 2 minutes I just blanked on the fact that I now had two children. I beat myself up for days even though he was fine and slept through the whole two minute lapse. I think it's VERY judgemental to say that no decent parent could EVER forget a child. Count yourselves lucky that the universe has never piled enough grief, sleep deprivation, ill-health etc. on you at once to allow something like that to happen.


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## UptownZoo (May 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *absinthe* 
I think it's VERY judgemental to say that no decent parent could EVER forget a child. Count yourselves lucky that the universe has never piled enough grief, sleep deprivation, ill-health etc. on you at once to allow something like that to happen.









:

In my 13 1/2 years as a parent, I've forgotten a child 3 times - once in the house, twice in the car. It is with deep gratitude that I tell you that no one was ever hurt.

Quote:

This case made my cry every time I heard a report on it. Basically these two parents were so overhwelmed with dealing with their special needs son that they couldn't function. This accident happened the day after an extremely traumatic night. As a mom of special needs twins, I understand that. I know how little support our society gives parents of special needs kids, and on certain days (like after spending 24 hours in the hospital after my son had brain surgery), I know I could be someone that would make a deadly mistake.
Yes. There's a larger societal issue at play here. Life for parents in the US is HARD. There's so little support! We have to work long hours to keep decent jobs with benefits (or live w/o health insurance); we're stressed about money and 12 trillion other things. Yes, there are irresponsible creeps out there who will neglect their children to go out and fulfill their own selfish desires. There are also a whole lot of parents who love their children deeply, and who just have too many things to think about and do.

My mom is a nurse and is on-call 5 nights a week. I've seen her on occasion call-in to work for being "dangerously tired." There is such a thing. There are also dangerously stressed and dangerously alone. But when we don't feel capable of meeting our children's needs, to whom do we "call in"? It's so normal to be that way in the US that we just keep on going and sometimes somebody gets hurt. How many car accidents are caused by over worked, over stressed, over tired people? Medical mistakes? On-the-job accidents?


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Yes.


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## Rylins mama (Aug 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veggiemomma* 
Hmm...I guess what I keep thinking about this "accident" vs. "intentional" things is that generally people will lie to get out of trouble. "What officer? Oh, yes I accidentally FORGOT my kid in the car."







: Really, or did you just not have a babysitter, or you were tired of hearing the kid crying, or you decided you didn't like being a parent, or it was more important for you to tan than make sure your kids were safe? I am not saying that sometimes it isn't accidental. I am sure it is. But, if we start making a lawful distinction between the two, then people who intentionally abandon their children for hours will just lie and say it was an accident so they don't get jail time.

Here is my very harsh view on this topic. If you are so darn forgetful that you leave your precious baby in a boiling hot car to die the slow agonizing death of dehydration, heat stroke, hallucinations, rapid rise in blood pressure, severe headache, and death because literally their little innocent brains cook







: then I don't want you running around the streets. What else might you forget? This is a real hot button issue for me. I am so sick of seeing these parents on the news blubbering and saying "Oh, I just forgot little Timmy in the car for 12 hours while I went to work. Haven't *I* suffered enough?" Umm...no, you haven't. What about how much your innocent baby suffered. The fact that we have become a society that is so callus that we could FORGET so completely about our children that it causes their deaths is very disturbing and sickening to me.

Okay, stepping down off my soap box. Sorry to go off on a tangent about this, but it just caught me at the wrong time.









I havent read all the replies but this is exactly how I feel. I am disgusted by all of this. I can understand forgetting for a few minutes about your baby in the car but for HOURS? No Im sorry, I dont care how much youve got going on.


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## crazydiamond (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Qestia* 
Really? Because I WOH and I think about DS throughout the day, I glance at the clock and think "they're probably at the park" or "he's probably napping." I also spend some time connecting with my DCP each morning. If I arrived at work and hadn't had that moment of chatting with her, I think I'd realize something was amiss (plus she'd call to see where we were).

Oh I think about DD throughout the day too. But if I missed that one crucial step of dropping her off and not realized it, I would still think "oh they're probably at the park". Now, I'm lucky because the DCP comes to my house in the mornings to pick DD up and we do chat. But last year when DD was in a daycare center there wasn't much chatting in the mornings. Everyday blurs together for me and I can't keep my days straight. . so I could very well think a conversation I had yesterday really took place today and vice versa. And that center definitely would NOT call if DD hadn't shown up.

I guess all I'm saying is that I'm not toting DD around for 8 hrs every day. I think about her but I do not have to be concerned with where she is every second. I go to meetings, I talk to people, I get caught up in my work. The days I remember to drop her off wouldn't be any different than the days I forgot. I compare this to the weekends where she is with me constantly -- these days I do watch her every second and know I have that additional responsibility of making sure she's okay every second.

DH and I are both very busy and have a lot going on. Thankfully, though, our schedules are pretty set and we are stuck in a routine. I always see DD off in the mornings and DH always picks her up. Maybe twice in her entire life did we switch roles. . .and then we constantly called each other asking "Did you remember to drop her off?" or "You picked her up, right?". It's such an unusual occurrence that we constantly double-check.


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *absinthe* 
I think it's VERY judgemental to say that no decent parent could EVER forget a child.

ITA.
And ftr I've never forgotten my child but I can see how in some crazy instances it can happen and it truly is a tragic accident. And as someone who has frequent miscommunications with my DH I can see how that could happen too, even when each person thinks he or she is being very clear.

Oh and re: leaving a sleeping child in a car--that's a good point about how those backseat alarms wouldn't work very well. When DS was a toddler I did this often as long as it wasn't hot outside. I left windows down and watched him from the kitchen window. My driveway was actually inside my walled/gated yard and I could easily see him from the house. Or sometimes we'd be elsewhere but as long as it was somewhere where DS was safe and we could see him, we'd let him sleep.


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## amitymama (Nov 17, 2006)

About 10 years ago, my 19 year-old cousin was babysitting my other cousin, who was 2 at the time (they were not sisters, just cousins). She and her husband put her down for a nap in their bedroom at the back of the house and then my cousin went to run to the store in her truck. She backed out of the driveway and suddenly heard a thud. My 2yo cousin had managed to unlatch the lock in their room and go out the side screen porch and was playing under the truck. It killed her almost instantly.

My cousin had to be taken to the police station and arrested and questioned while they waited for my aunt to arrive and be told what had happened. My cousin was on suicide watch because she kept threatening to kill herself and said she couldn't live with herself. My aunt refused to press charges and I guess the police decided to let it go. She might've received probation, I don't know as I wasn't really told what exactly came of it, but she didn't serve any jail time. But her life was almost destroyed by that incident as she beat herself up every single day and stopped attending family functions because she couldn't look my aunt in the eye. She thought we all looked at her as a murderer. She ended up getting divorced because she just completely changed as a person and her self-worth went through the floor. She also has never had children and vows she never will as it wouldn't be fair to our aunt for her to have a child when she took one of hers away.

I feel really, really sorry for my cousin and have seen how much she has punished herself. I doubt she'd be alive right now if she'd had to serve prison time for the accident as I'm pretty sure she would've committed suicide.









I'm not saying that no one should ever receive a jail sentence for neglect or manslaughter in these situations, but it shouldn't be automatic either. As with everything, each case varies and it depends on the circumstances and individiaul situations. I would'nt like to see a blanket law that doesn't account for these circumstances.


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## jamsmama (Jul 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crazydiamond* 
Really? I imagine you stay outside with them, right?

Just when I think it's safe to post without being judged.......







Don't want to get OT, so........I won't.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jamsmama* 
Just when I think it's safe to post without being judged.......







Don't want to get OT, so........I won't.

Ha! Why would you think it's safe to post without being judged? Around here, of all places?









I do not think parents should be criminally charged for forgetting or miscommunicating so a child is left in the car. It is an absolute tragedy, emblematic of our harried car-cultured times, and it is heartbreaking. But it is not a crime.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

There may be exceptional cases where people are truly negligent, but the judgement in this thread makes me so sad.

It used to be that when people lost a child they received sympathy and compassion from the community, or at least that is what my great aunt tells me. But now the finger-pointing seems to start right away.

Yes, I think parents who forget their kids - I've never forgotten mine, at least not yet - are clearly not behaving normally, but who knows what kind of stress and strange schedules they are coping with. The truth to my mind is that all of us will at some point, some day, make a mistake that is potentially fatal - some of which we are probably not EVER aware of. It might not be leaving a child in a car, but it will be something, and anyone who thinks they NEVER EVER do a single thing wrong ever for 16 years is in my opinion just delusional.

Of course that is terrifying; if our oversights could result in the death of a child, it's awful. We shut it out and tighten our carseats and do our best. But it can still happen.

I lost my first child to a cord accident at birth - and NO LIE, a mother who had been in prenatal classes with me asked if I thought it could have been the aquafit classes I took that wrapped the cord around her neck. She had to blame someone, because otherwise it might happen to her.

People go a long way to blame the parents right now. We are fortunate to live in a society where the rates of death for babies and children are low, and so we have, I think, forgotten how to be compassionate about it. (There but for the grace of God go I, sort of thing.)

I think a lot of that is happening in this thread. Trust me, what these people go through - even the most negligent - is likely enough.


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## UptownZoo (May 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
There may be exceptional cases where people are truly negligent, but the judgement in this thread makes me so sad.

It used to be that when people lost a child they received sympathy and compassion from the community, or at least that is what my great aunt tells me. But now the finger-pointing seems to start right away.

Yes, I think parents who forget their kids - I've never forgotten mine, at least not yet - are clearly not behaving normally, but who knows what kind of stress and strange schedules they are coping with. The truth to my mind is that all of us will at some point, some day, make a mistake that is potentially fatal - some of which we are probably not EVER aware of. It might not be leaving a child in a car, but it will be something, and anyone who thinks they NEVER EVER do a single thing wrong ever for 16 years is in my opinion just delusional.

Of course that is terrifying; if our oversights could result in the death of a child, it's awful. We shut it out and tighten our carseats and do our best. But it can still happen.

I lost my first child to a cord accident at birth - and NO LIE, a mother who had been in prenatal classes with me asked if I thought it could have been the aquafit classes I took that wrapped the cord around her neck. She had to blame someone, because otherwise it might happen to her.

People go a long way to blame the parents right now. We are fortunate to live in a society where the rates of death for babies and children are low, and so we have, I think, forgotten how to be compassionate about it. (There but for the grace of God go I, sort of thing.)

I think a lot of that is happening in this thread. Trust me, what these people go through - even the most negligent - is likely enough.

GuildJenn, thank you for the great post! You said it much better than I did. The story about the woman who had to blame you for your baby's death broke my heart, and I think it's absolutely emblematic.

It seems to me that, in our US culture, everything, all the time, is the parent's (and most often the mother's) fault. Don't get me wrong; I believe in personal responsibility, but I also know that human beings are not omnipotent. I feel so deeply sad sometimes living in a culture where people jump up to judge and condemn at every opportunity.

It's painful and scary and sad to think of the neglect and abuse that happens every minute to children, whether by sick parents, or mean parents, or parents who are trying to do their best and make a mistake. I think it's just much easier to get mad (and self-righteous anger is a very powerful place to sit) than to acknowledge that having children is frightening and painful, even when they make it safely to adulthood. They grow up and grow away from us and that hurts, even in the best of circumstances.


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## FancyD (Apr 22, 2005)

How in the netherhell do you forget about your kid for HOURS? Hours in a hot car. Sorry, I'm judging all the way here. Harried car-culture, my a**. I have never once forgotten about my boy's whereabouts, though I have had many a nightmare about it.

I can see forgetting for a few minutes, but hours? Nuh-huh. There is something very wrong in that.

P.S. I'm sad about the kids who have overheated and died, not about online judgments of strangers...


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## GoldtimeMama (Aug 9, 2007)

You don't _accidentally_ leave your kid in the car. WTF?
I don't buy that. I don't understand how you forget your kid in the car. I just don't. I can't wrap my head around that.







:


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## Blu Razzberri (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jamsmama* 
Umm...I think this crosses the line into the "big brother" mentality. I leave my kids buckled in their carseats in my driveway and leave all of the doors open so that they can finish sleeping after falling asleep on the way home from somewhere. The alarm thing would just be creepy.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *jamsmama* 
Just when I think it's safe to post without being judged.......







Don't want to get OT, so........I won't.

Truth: I kinda "judged" you. But in my defence, I just read this thread and knowing that there's people like that guy in the world, I wouldn't leave my kid in the car unattended. But then I thought about it. I don't know you. You could live in a home with a royal gate with guards at the front for all I know. So, judgement retracted.







I'm sure you're a good mom. I'm sorry.


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## GalateaDunkel (Jul 22, 2005)

I don't think 'there but for the grace of God go I' and legal accountability are incompatible. I feel sorry for the parent but a LOT more sorry for the child who dies this way. It's the job of prosecutors to defend the rights of every member of society and I think that depending on the details of the situation, legal action can be society's way of saying 'even though he was a child, this person was a full member of society whose loss was a loss to us all, not just you personally as a parent, and you are accountable to us.' I think letting the loss of small children be treated as a purely private matter sets a dangerous precedent. Namely that it is up to the parents' discretion how hard they will work at keeping their kids alive, in a culture where there's not public accountability for the results. And from there how far is it to a situation where parents have discretion to voluntarily kill their children? There are proposals out there to the effect that parents of sick or SN children have a four week grace period after birth when they can opt to have the child euthanized. They already have a similar situation in the Netherlands, and there are credible reports of passive euthanasia (e.g. not fixing bowel obstructions in Down syndrome newborns) in the US.

Holding parents publicly accountable for their children is a major advance in civilization, over older civilizations where the father had the power of life and death and I don't want to see it reversed, even a little.

That doesn't mean I can't say 'there but for the grace of God', just as I do when I hear about other serious mistakes people make.


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## FancyD (Apr 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GalateaDunkel* 
There are proposals out there to the effect that parents of sick or SN children have a four week grace period after birth when they can opt to have the child euthanized. They already have a similar situation in the Netherlands, and there are credible reports of passive euthanasia (e.g. not fixing bowel obstructions in Down syndrome newborns) in the US.

Holy. I've not heard of this before. What a can of worms (to put it mildly). Witholding medical treatment/DNR orders are very different than euthanasia...


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flapjack* 
Which is the whole point of a trial by a jury of one's peers, surely?

And when your IQ is 70ish, is a jury of your peers composed of people with an IQ that is 70ish? _Yes._ Is that what you get? _NO._ When you're Post Partum, or mentally ill, or sleep deprived, is a jury of your peers composed of people with the same problem? _Yes._ Is that what you get? _No._

I agree that there are instances where people should be punished, but there are also instances where compassion is called for. On the surface my first reaction is to think _Oh my god, what is wrong with those people?_ But sometimes only the things that make them look the worst make the newspapers.

As someone who suffered from a sleep disorder and pretty much sleepwalked through several years before it was discovered, I know how easily you can be misjudged for something you can't control, _even when you are trying to get help._ Doctors told me I was exaggerating my symptoms and nothing was wrong with me. Or they gave me drugs that made me worse. It was dangerous for me to drive, or to be alone caring for a child, and nearly impossible to learn anything or try to work with any efficiency. I fell asleep at inopportune moments, and had trouble thinking clearly _not_ because I was _stupid,_ or _lazy,_ or _a bad mother,_ but because I was too _exhausted_ for my brain to function properly for _years on end._ I'm just lucky I had help caring for my ds and nothing tragic happened to us, or you would all be judging me.

For many of these people, the loss of their child is the worst punishment of all and they really don't care what you do to them.


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## Ellie'sMom (Aug 10, 2002)

This thread is emblematic of everything I love and hate about MDC. Judgemental self-righteousness followed by articulate, compassionate replies.

GuildJenn: Amazing post, and I am so sorry for your loss.


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## crazydiamond (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jamsmama* 
Just when I think it's safe to post without being judged.......







Don't want to get OT, so........I won't.

I'm not judging you -- I'm just trying to get some more information about your situation.

I have no idea where you live or what your house/driveway configuration are. I just know that where _I_ live, that would be patently unsafe. It can get to 100+ degrees outside in the shade in the breeze here. . .so even with the doors open it could be dangerous. Plus, kidnapping is a very real threat and unless I was right there outside with them, I would not think it's safe.

But I have no idea where you live. I just figured most people have homes where they can't be indoors while watching their children sleeping in the driveway. But one poster already said she has such a configuration, so it's all good.

No judgment, just curiosity. Your post didn't say, but can I assume that you're against the criminalization of parents whose children die in a hot car?


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amitymama* 
About 10 years ago, my 19 year-old cousin was babysitting my other cousin, who was 2 at the time (they were not sisters, just cousins). She and her husband put her down for a nap in their bedroom at the back of the house and then my cousin went to run to the store in her truck. She backed out of the driveway and suddenly heard a thud. My 2yo cousin had managed to unlatch the lock in their room and go out the side screen porch and was playing under the truck. It killed her almost instantly.

My cousin had to be taken to the police station and arrested and questioned while they waited for my aunt to arrive and be told what had happened. My cousin was on suicide watch because she kept threatening to kill herself and said she couldn't live with herself. My aunt refused to press charges and I guess the police decided to let it go. She might've received probation, I don't know as I wasn't really told what exactly came of it, but she didn't serve any jail time. But her life was almost destroyed by that incident as she beat herself up every single day and stopped attending family functions because she couldn't look my aunt in the eye. She thought we all looked at her as a murderer. She ended up getting divorced because she just completely changed as a person and her self-worth went through the floor. She also has never had children and vows she never will as it wouldn't be fair to our aunt for her to have a child when she took one of hers away.

I feel really, really sorry for my cousin and have seen how much she has punished herself. I doubt she'd be alive right now if she'd had to serve prison time for the accident as I'm pretty sure she would've committed suicide.










I'm not saying that no one should ever receive a jail sentence for neglect or manslaughter in these situations, but it shouldn't be automatic either. As with everything, each case varies and it depends on the circumstances and individiaul situations. I would'nt like to see a blanket law that doesn't account for these circumstances.


You see, it is incidents like this that hack me off to no end at the justice system. This was CLEARLY a total accident. They put the child to bed, and had no idea she could unlatch the window. This was not neglect.

I have a real problem with people being arrested for true accidents. And really, you can check mirrors all you want, but there are blind spots when you are driving and especially backing a vehicle out.

Your cousin should never have been arrested and I am just livid that she was. I am so sad for her and the rest of your family.


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## jamsmama (Jul 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blu Razzberri* 
Truth: I kinda "judged" you. But in my defence, I just read this thread and knowing that there's people like that guy in the world, I wouldn't leave my kid in the car unattended. But then I thought about it. I don't know you. You could live in a home with a royal gate with guards at the front for all I know. So, judgement retracted.







I'm sure you're a good mom. I'm sorry.

Wow, a royal gate with guards......that would be awesome! Don't have it, but I do live in a really small town in Vermont and feel _totally_ safe where I live. I'm sure it isn't good enough for everyone on this board, but it is good enough for me. I AM a fantastic mother! I make intelligent judgments when it comes to the outside temperature when letting them slumber away in their seats. If it's too hot/cold, they come in the house no matter what. Apology accepted. I love it when people step up.









Everyone forgets, but to what extremes.......I'm not the one to judge. I feel for those children and pets that get left in hot cars.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blu Razzberri* 
Truth: I kinda "judged" you. But in my defence, I just read this thread and knowing that there's people like that guy in the world, I wouldn't leave my kid in the car unattended. But then I thought about it. I don't know you. You could live in a home with a royal gate with guards at the front for all I know. So, judgement retracted.







I'm sure you're a good mom. I'm sorry.

Yeah, that guy was IN THE KIDS BEDROOM, he didn't take them from a car.

That is why we share a room with our son...I am really paranoid about someone breaking in. But I certainly would not judge someone for not sharing a room with their child, or imply that they are putting them in harms way.

We all have different things that we worry about.


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## GranoLLLy-girl (Mar 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amitymama* 
About 10 years ago, my 19 year-old cousin was babysitting my other cousin, who was 2 at the time (they were not sisters, just cousins). She and her husband put her down for a nap in their bedroom at the back of the house and then my cousin went to run to the store in her truck. She backed out of the driveway and suddenly heard a thud. My 2yo cousin had managed to unlatch the lock in their room and go out the side screen porch and was playing under the truck. It killed her almost instantly.

My cousin had to be taken to the police station and arrested and questioned while they waited for my aunt to arrive and be told what had happened. My cousin was on suicide watch because she kept threatening to kill herself and said she couldn't live with herself. My aunt refused to press charges and I guess the police decided to let it go. She might've received probation, I don't know as I wasn't really told what exactly came of it, but she didn't serve any jail time. But her life was almost destroyed by that incident as she beat herself up every single day and stopped attending family functions because she couldn't look my aunt in the eye. She thought we all looked at her as a murderer. She ended up getting divorced because she just completely changed as a person and her self-worth went through the floor. She also has never had children and vows she never will as it wouldn't be fair to our aunt for her to have a child when she took one of hers away.

I feel really, really sorry for my cousin and have seen how much she has punished herself. I doubt she'd be alive right now if she'd had to serve prison time for the accident as I'm pretty sure she would've committed suicide.









I'm not saying that no one should ever receive a jail sentence for neglect or manslaughter in these situations, but it shouldn't be automatic either. As with everything, each case varies and it depends on the circumstances and individiaul situations. I would'nt like to see a blanket law that doesn't account for these circumstances.

This just breaks my heart. That poor girl.


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## mbhf (Jan 8, 2005)

i don't think it's that far fetched that any one of you (or your parter) could forget your child in a car. any time i go out without all of my children, a fe minutes after i reach my destination and realize i only have two (or one) child with me, for just a second, my heart starts racing and my brain screams "someone is missing!" because it is so ingrained in me that my children are always with me.

for two years, every day, my husband's routine was exactly the same. get up, shower, drive 40 minutes, go to the gym, go to work. work all day. go home. if for some strange reason he had been supposed to take one of our kids somewhere on his way to work, it could have happened. a really harried morning, just grabbed our son and went. baby fell asleep in the car, dh goes back to his routine and forgets. now, i doubt it would happen. buti don't think it's outside the realm of possibility.

so, for the op, no. i think it should be investigated, but accidentally leaving your child in the car is so totally different than purposefully leaving a child in a car. i don't think a child should be left in a car purposefully for any amount of time until they can and _should_ get out of the car on their own.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mbhf* 
i don't think it's that far fetched that any one of you (or your parter) could forget your child in a car.

Well, with a few-weeks-old baby (or even an older baby), I think I'd be seriously engorged if she wasn't with me.

Plus, when my babies are that small they tend to hate cars and want to be latched on all the time. We therefore avoid car-travel as much as possible, and when it's necessary, dh is usually driving so I can sit in back with my breast hanging out. So, I'm very much conscious of my babes the whole time we're traveling in the car.









But I can see how I might not be engorged if my breasts were already used to several hours of separation each day. In my case, if I worked, I'd probably be thinking so much about my baby I'd get fired for not concentrating on the job at hand. I might do something criminally negligent and endanger those around me, because of my thoughts being so focused on my little one.

Which would be just as bad.

Quote:

so, for the op, no. i think it should be investigated, but accidentally leaving your child in the car is so totally different than purposefully leaving a child in a car. i don't think a child should be left in a car purposefully for any amount of time until they can and _should_ get out of the car on their own.
I think the purpose of the investigation is to be as sure as possible that the death was accidental and not premeditated. Of course, I believe in "innocent until proven guilty" -- so it seems kindest to assume most parents would never willfully harm or kill their children.

But, to uphold the rights of the dead child, district attorneys should remember that a few parents *do* murder their children, and they should be alert for any indication that the death might have been intentional.


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## RedOakMomma (Sep 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GalateaDunkel* 
I don't think 'there but for the grace of God go I' and legal accountability are incompatible. I feel sorry for the parent but a LOT more sorry for the child who dies this way. It's the job of prosecutors to defend the rights of every member of society and I think that depending on the details of the situation, legal action can be society's way of saying 'even though he was a child, this person was a full member of society whose loss was a loss to us all, not just you personally as a parent, and you are accountable to us.' I think letting the loss of small children be treated as a purely private matter sets a dangerous precedent. Namely that it is up to the parents' discretion how hard they will work at keeping their kids alive, in a culture where there's not public accountability for the results. And from there how far is it to a situation where parents have discretion to voluntarily kill their children? There are proposals out there to the effect that parents of sick or SN children have a four week grace period after birth when they can opt to have the child euthanized. They already have a similar situation in the Netherlands, and there are credible reports of passive euthanasia (e.g. not fixing bowel obstructions in Down syndrome newborns) in the US.

Holding parents publicly accountable for their children is a major advance in civilization, over older civilizations where the father had the power of life and death and I don't want to see it reversed, even a little.

That doesn't mean I can't say 'there but for the grace of God', just as I do when I hear about other serious mistakes people make.

GalateaD~ I really respect your opinions, but I think there are exceptions to every rule.

For instance, I don't think every death should have a criminal investigation, or a trial, or a punnishment. I'm speaking from experience here. My mother was killed by an innattentive driver three years ago. At first, I wanted her (the driver) jailed, punished, and criminalized as much as possible. BUT, after time, I realized the importance of forgiveness, and I worked *very hard* at putting myself in her shoes. I am sure, completely sure, that the guilt she lives with is punishment enough. No one is perfect. There are accidents. Just because my dear mother's life was lost, and she was taken from the children and grandchildren that loved her dearly, doesn't mean that this other grandmother should lose what she loves as well. An eye for and eye makes everyone blind, you know? The specifics of each case, or each tragedy, are very important, in my opinion.

(ETA): In the case of my mom, there was a criminal investigation. But because we as a family decided to treat it as an accident, the prosecutor took that tone as well. It was because of our feelings that she wasn't given a more severe punishment. In the end, I believe she was given community service and her license was suspended for a period of time. I recognize that deaths need to be investigated, and that there needs to be some consequence (usually) for a death, but I really think the type of death (accidental, neglectful, puposeful, etc.) and the circumstances of the accident need to be weighed.

And also, I do believe that parents of _some_ newly-born SN kids should have the choice to euthanize. Again, I'm speaking from experience. I have two severely special needs children. Would I have euthanized them? No. But I know other parents, watching their newborns in the NICU, who saw that nothing could be done to save them. Nothing. And instead of having an painless, short way to stop their suffering, these parents had to end their child's suffering the only way legally available to them: starvation and liquid deprivation. I know of two parents who watched their newborn suffer without food or nourishment for _10 days_ before she died. Now tell me--how is that the outcome of a higher civilization? If we can choose to end the suffering of a pet who has nothing left but pain and death in its future, why can't we extend the same loving mercy to a baby?

I understand it's a slippery slope, and that nobody wants to touch this mess of ethics etc.. But I also wish we could understand the agony of the parents that watch their babies starve to death, and give them a merciful option. To me, our collective distain and hesitation to address the subject (as a society) is inhumane. Because we can't agree what's right, and what's fair, and get it down to specifics, parents and babies suffer horribly in these rare, horrible, tragic situations.

A little OT, but the talking in absolutes on this thread is getting to me.







I've lost someone I loved _very much_ in an accident. I've also experienced the pain of having severely handicapped children, and watched friends suffer the inevitable loss of a baby in a very gruesome way (starvation).

There is tremendous truth in the "walk a mile in someone else's shoes" proverb. You can't know until you've been there.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I also think the district attorney should show the same compassion to a day-care provider who committed a similar kind of oversight that resulted in the death of a child in her care, as should be shown when the parent was the one who made the error.

I wonder if some of the people criticizing others for being judgmental, might be just a wee bit judgmental if their own child died, and the death was caused by _someone else_ and not them.

I agree that we're all human, we all make mistakes, and we're all deserving of compassion. I know I'd suffer intensely if I caused the death of a child, whether the child was my own or someone else's. At the same time, I believe that when a human being *of any age* dies, that loss is worthy of an investigation.

That doesn't mean everyone should be prosecuted, just that the death should be taken seriously.


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## jamsmama (Jul 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I wonder if some of the people criticizing others for being judgmental, might be just a wee bit judgmental if their own child died, and the death was caused by _someone else_ and not them.

Ok, well that is a no-brainer. OF COURSE I would judge someone who killed my child....wouldn't anyone on the planet?


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## mother_star (Aug 11, 2006)

I did not read all the replys to this thread.

How the heck does one "forget" that their child is in the car???? How CAN it be an accident to leave your child in the car?

In my opinion, if the parent leaves the child in the car and the child dies, yes they should be charged. No if's but's and and's about it.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mother_star* 
I did not read all the replys to this thread.

How the heck does one "forget" that their child is in the car???? How CAN it be an accident to leave your child in the car?

In my opinion, if the parent leaves the child in the car and the child dies, yes they should be charged. No if's but's and and's about it.

We had a run of _backing over_ deaths here. I mean it was on the news every night for several days! Toddlers in the driveway and distraught relatives.

Then I saw a tv show where they demonstrated how many kids they could hide in the blind spot of an SUV...it was an unbelievable number, and I thought it would be permanently embedded in my brain, but it isn't.

Suffice it to say, always walk around your car and take a peek whenever you are going to back it out of _any place._

You always see the story and the first thought is 'how on earth could they?'
But when you get right down to it, nearly every bad thing that has ever happened to anyone could have been prevented if we were all 100% infallible, perfect, unrushed, completely rested, never angry or distracted, or sadly, in some cases, neglectful or drugged.

But until it's you...







you _can't_ know. I just know I have been sleep deprived for literally years before the problem was found and diagnosed, and my mind was not functioning properly for _a long time._ I know how I was treated by other people and I _never_ made a _deadly error._ I _can_ imagine being in that situation because there were times when I was afraid I would fall asleep and cause an accident, or something would just happen because I was too tired and foggy to think straight. I _can_ imagine the guilt I would have felt on top of a tragedy if one had happened. It's easy for me to see people throwing stones.

And I'm thankful nothing too awful ever happened before I finally was able to get help. Lack of sleep will literally make you crazy.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jamsmama* 
Ok, well that is a no-brainer. OF COURSE I would judge someone who killed my child....wouldn't anyone on the planet?

Okay, I'm not sure if you're one of the posters who was saying "don't judge" or not. I'd judge someone who killed my child, too, even if the "killed" was really more like "caused the death accidentally." And I'd judge myself _even more_ harshly if _I_ were the one whose negligence caused my child's death.

I'm just saying I don't think there should be any differentiation between the death caused by negligence of a parent, and the death caused by negligence of a child care provider. Let's remember that many child care providers are parents, too.

And from my understanding, when a parent (or child-care provider) is under investigation for murder or manslaughter, CPS now takes that parent's other children and places them (or even imprisons them against their will) in foster care. Sometimes the investigation is completed, the parent is charged with absolutely nothing, and the children are not returned immediately home.

What's that all about?

It's crazy, and it's wrong that the children don't have any choice in the matter of who they get to live with. And I don't see why it should take more than a day or so for a district attorney to review such a case and decide whether there's any indication that the death might not have been accidental.

And the protocol should be the same, whether the person under investigation is the parent or the child-care provider.


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## loriforeman (Aug 18, 2007)

how the heck do you starve an infant for ten days? i'm physically cringing at the thought...


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 

I wonder if some of the people criticizing others for being judgmental, might be just a wee bit judgmental if their own child died, and the death was caused by _someone else_ and not them.

Well, actually my daughter did die because of the incompetence of an inexperienced nurse, and a problem with staffing the hospital (once the distress was clear, an ob was not available for a c-section quickly enough). The chart was clear: the nurse should have caught the heart decels, and did not.

So I have been on that side, and it is from that position from which I am speaking.

We did work with the hospital and the staff to ensure that it would not happen again. And we consulted a lawyer, but in the end did not pursue legal action. Our focus was on making sure it didn't happen again.

There was no justice or compensation for the loss of our daughter; it's not something you can quantify in an "eye for an eye" kind of way. Sure, emotionally, at times I wanted that nurse to "pay" but my higher self was aware that she made a terrible, terrible mistake - and people do make mistakes. She did not get up in the morning and decide to kill a baby that day. I am personally convinced that she will not make that one again, and that is enough for me, where "enough" is reasonably at peace.

ETA: Of course I think any death should be investigated. But prosecution is something else. I am not convinced that throwing parents who leave their kids in cars in jail is a good way to prevent that from happening. Having those parents out in the community speaking - maybe. But I think the shame of it probably prevents them from doing so.


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## NotTheOnlyOne (Oct 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
If, however, the child was left by say, a DCP, even if it was an accident, charges should absolutely be filed.

so, parents can be less vigilant than a DCP? and its ok? I have actually read every reply on this thread... and I am so sorry for the few of you who have actually been affected by accidental deaths. I KNOW accidents happen, but they don't HAVE to happen. That's why they are called accidents. Thats why we as parents, and also members of communities, need to be very very aware of children all the time. They don't know what can kill them. We do.

I always look in carseats when I am in a parking lot. I have never found a child left in one yet, but I might save a life someday. If everyone looked in carseats in parking lots... well, a few more children would be alive.

If parking lots posted signs that said "Please look behind your car before you back out." A few lives may be spared. If that sign was something we read all the time, it would just be ingrained and we would do it automatically. In fact, I think they should start a campaign....

In response to the OP's original question: I DO think parents should be charged with a crime. Maybe not jail time, depending on the situation, but to just completely write off the fact that someone's negligence caused the death of a child, that's not cool.


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## spedteacher30 (Nov 20, 2005)

my only thought about charging a DCP but not parents is that other parents looking for daycare deserve to know a DCP history of negligence/accidents.

If I forget my child in the car, it hurts my family and my child. If my care provider forgets my child in the car, it impacts my family, my child, and all the families that were and will be clients of him/her.

I know I look carefully at the DSS licensing website for daycare violations before leaving my son at a center. i would hope that any major accident would be recorded for all families to evaluate.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Holy cow! Is this thread still alive?

Has everyone seen the video of the Ohio mom being interrogated by the police? Painful to watch, be forewarned.

http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm?...b-678b494acea5


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momtosimon* 
and I am so sorry for the few of you who have actually been affected by accidental deaths. I KNOW accidents happen, but they don't HAVE to happen. That's why they are called accidents. Thats why we as parents, and also members of communities, need to be very very aware of children all the time. They don't know what can kill them. We do.

Well, that's where we disagree. I do believe we should all try to prevent accidents, but I do not agree that they "don't have to happen."

They will happen - do happen every day, in fact, it's just that the vast majority of the time the accident doesn't line up with all the other factors to cause such a catastrophe.

It's great that you check your car, and other people's cars, but I maintain my opinion that rather than pretending that people could prevent everything bad if they only TRIED hard enough, we should be compassionate enough to understand that sometimes bad things happen to good people.

That doesn't mean rolling over and just taking it when people are incompetent, but the original question was about how far do we go to punish people.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Sorry, this is a much better piece.

They interview a couple of which the father left the daughter in the car two years ago. Very painful to watch. The father basically cannot talk, isn't able to contribute to the interview, but just sits crumpled, wiping tears off his face. Says in a broken voice that he cannot forgive himself.

Only the warmth and forgiveness of their immediate community allowed them to survive.

They say that before this happened to them, they were THOSE people: people who said this could never happen to them and that they just couldn't understand how any parent could allow this to happen to their child.

http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm?...b-678b494acea5

ETA: it doesn't seem to link directly to the story. If you're interested, click on the play next list: Recovering from the loss of a child.


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## NotTheOnlyOne (Oct 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
Well, that's where we disagree. I do believe we should all try to prevent accidents, but I do not agree that they "don't have to happen."

They will happen - do happen every day, in fact, it's just that the vast majority of the time the accident doesn't line up with all the other factors to cause such a catastrophe.

It's great that you check your car, and other people's cars, but I maintain my opinion that rather than pretending that people could prevent everything bad if they only TRIED hard enough, we should be compassionate enough to understand that sometimes bad things happen to good people.

That doesn't mean rolling over and just taking it when people are incompetent, but the original question was about how far do we go to punish people.

But see, thats the nature of an accident. Its, if you had done something different... it wouldn't have happened. I agree that they do happen and will continue to happen.... but just by definition, an accident is something you didn't plan on happening, because you didn't check all the variables or maybe, you DO understand the variables, you just don't think the extreme 1 to 5% of something bad happening will include you (like leaving your baby in the tub for just a second) I am not pretending that accidents like this will disappear, but each and every one was "unavoidable" if something had been done differently. Otherwise, it wouldn't be called an accident.

And I am also not saying that we should "judge" people whose accidents result in the death of their child. But we certainly can't pat them on the back and say, "oh, its ok, it was just an accident, you'll try harder next time."


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momtosimon* 
But see, thats the nature of an accident. Its, if you had done something different... it wouldn't have happened. I agree that they do happen and will continue to happen.... but just by definition, an accident is something you didn't plan on happening, because you didn't check all the variables or maybe, you DO understand the variables, you just don't think the extreme 1 to 5% of something bad happening will include you (like leaving your baby in the tub for just a second) I am not pretending that accidents like this will disappear, but each and every one was "unavoidable" if something had been done differently. Otherwise, it wouldn't be called an accident.

And I am also not saying that we should "judge" people whose accidents result in the death of their child. But we certainly can't pat them on the back and say, "oh, its ok, it was just an accident, you'll try harder next time."

Well not to get too picky with you but there are lots of definitions of accident that don't involve foreseeable circumstances.

You seem to think that all the variables can be controlled and again, that's where we disagree. No parent or society can be one hundred percent vigilant all the time - it's not realistic. It also might create a pretty awful society for our kids and families, in the case of something like letting kids explore on their own, etc.

Again I do not think it is normal to leave one's child in the car - but I don't think it's in the realm of say, locking a child in his or her room for three days as punishment - true abuse and neglect. I'm sure there are occasional people who do deliberately do something like that, but I think the vast majority of individuals who make that mistake are simply overscheduled, tired, stressed out people.

I honestly don't see how having compassion for a parent who made a mistake that resulted in the loss of their child would ever be perceived as receiving a "pat on the back."

I think the best response is "How did that happen?" (from the police, not from the community) followed by "how can we help you in your time of loss?"

And again I'm just saddened by this thread, because I really think that in this generation we have lost, again, *compassion* for the terrifying and humanly flawed act of parenting.

I am probably romanticizing a bit but it seems to me that when I was growing up when children died - which was already much less common than in my grandmother's generation - the _first_ response of people was to feel sad for the family and to hug their own children, not to demand that people pay for what they did or go to jail as an example to others. The *loss of the child* and the devastating wreckage in that family's life was the example.

I do think this relates to our culture of fear and blame. As long as we can say it's only "those people" over there that make mistakes, we don't have to live with the fear that we could lose our own children. But the fact is that we all make those mistakes every day - a chokable sized knob comes loose; an electrical appliance's cord gets exposed when someone knocks into the end table; we cut someone off on the road because our baby started screaming.

And I guess I just feel that there are compassionate and caring ways to address mistakes that people make without having to treat them like the real criminals, the people who deliberately go out of their way to harm people, or like corporations, who need to be monitored to be sure that they are not making profits at the expense of safety.

A parent who makes a mistake, to me, is just not in the same category.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Jenn, I'm so sorry for your loss.

I agree that there's a big difference when you're turning to medical professionals and relying on their expertise to cope with problems in childbirth, or even a childhood illness. They bear a higher degree of responsibility for any serious errors they make.

I realize that some parents who use child care providers, also look up to them and turn to them for advice on certain aspects of child development. Still, I don't see a big difference between a caregiver who makes an error that results in a child being harmed or killed, and a parent who makes the same error.

Both have made a mistake, both are accountable, and both deserve understanding and compassion. Of course, I'm not saying doctors and nurses are beyond compassion, either. Just that they've chosen a profession with a high degree of accountability.

I think you were right in doing everything you could to make sure the same tragedy wasn't repeated in that hospital, rather than focusing on "taking an eye for an eye."

Last night after everyone was asleep, I lay in bed pondering what accountability means to me. When I think about helping my kids learn accountability, I think in terms of helping them empathize with other people and increasing their awareness of how their actions (both positive and negative) affect others.

I started out as a parent who sometimes imposed punishments (other than spanking) to "teach lessons." Now that I've been practicing Gentle Discipline for the past couple of years, I think GD is a better way to encourage children to be accountable for their actions.

I agree with Alfie Kohn that punishment causes the individual to focus on what will happen to *her* if she does this or that, and to be more concerned about avoiding punishment than about the feelings of others.

I'd rather free my child from the worry of "I'm in trouble," so she can brainstorm ways to restore relationships and mend any damage she's caused, if and when that's possible. Even where restoration is not possible, there's still potential for the wrongdoer to learn from her mistakes and become a better person.

If one of my children someday commits an error that results in death or serious injury to another person -- even if that other person is my grandchild, I'd rather my child have opportunities to learn from her mistake without having to be charged with a crime and possibly spend time in prison.

If my spouse committed such an error and caused the death of one of our children -- well, I can't imagine him doing that, but if he did, I can't imagine how it would help me or our surviving child to lose him to the prison system for a few months or years. It would only add to our devastation, emotionally and financially.

Of course, I realize accountability issues become complicated when you're talking about adults who never got, or learned, empathy during their growing up years, and have become hardened criminals who harm others without feeling any remorse.

At the same time, most people seem to agree that a prison term usually just makes a hardened criminal even harder. Most seem to agree that our criminal justice system has lots of holes, and isn't achieving the rehabilitation we'd like for it to.

The sad thing is, some people haven't learned empathy and are now a danger to themselves and others. And our society doesn't know what to do with them so we lock them up.

But when an individual commits a terrible error, and is full of remorse, I don't think we need to lock her up to protect ourselves and our children. I think a truly remorseful individual is eager to find a way to bring something good out of the pain she's caused. If she could have help forming a constructive plan for restitution, coercion would probably not even be necessary.


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## kaspar (Nov 9, 2005)

i'm quitting mdc because mdc is unkind and discriminates against mamas with special needs babies.


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## tiffer23 (Nov 7, 2005)

It's a terrible terrible thing all around.


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## Caroline248 (Nov 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purposefulmother* 
But really, for the life of me, I cannot fathom leaving my child in the car by accident. How can you forget your child is in the car?



I have to say, I have accidently left my baby in the car.

I picked my daughter up from school, which was a not normal situation. She was sick. I wanted to stop and grab a gallon of milk, so I quick pulled into the parking lot. I got my daighter out of the car and we walked in. We wandered through the store looking for something she wanted to eat, got on line, paid, and left the store. We were probably in there for about 20 minutes. It was about April, so not to hot, thankfully.

When we got back to the car, she yelled out "Mom!!!! We left Jackson in the car...." I nearly had a breakdown there in the parking lot. He was fine, but the what ifs. My husband had to come get us from the store.

I was in a different situation than my "routine". He was in a rear facing carseat and was asleep, so I didn't hear him or see him. My daughter was sitting in her sisters seat (another deviation from routine) so she didn't look to her left when she jumped out the side door of the van.

I am a good mom. I am very careful with my kids in regards to safety issues, I wasn't on the phone, drinking, eating, whatever. I was taking a sick kid to the store. I just forgot I took the baby too.

It all turned out fine for us, but what if it didn't?? Would me sitting in jail be just punishment?


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

I think people are having a hard time understanding that there is a difference in being charged with a crime, being convicted of a crime, and going to jail.

Has anyone here even said that parents should go to JAIL for this?

I personally agree that they should be charged with a crime. That doesn't mean convicted or jail. That means being charged and letting the judge or jury decide what needs to happen.

If you don't think that a parent should be charged with a crime if they say it is accidental then what should be done?

Scenario....child gets left in hot car. Child Dies. Mom says it was an accident. Case closed.

That is what happens if we don't at least charge someone with a crime and really investigate the facts and what happened. What would prevent every person who did this from saying it was an accident?

People do this on purpose all the time, and I would be willing to wager that many more children have died when the parent KNOWINGLY left them in the car rather than forgetting. A family in my area left 3 kids in the car at the beginning of summer this year while they went shopping at Bed, Bath and Beyond. Someone saw the kids in the car and called 911. The police were waiting for the parents when they came out of the store 40 minutes later with heaping shopping carts. THe youngest kid was around 1.5 and had to be hospitalized for dehydration etc...

The parents were arrested. People do this on purpose so they can go shopping, go get drunk or high etc.

Because of people like that we have to charge anyone who leaves their child in a hot car for so long that they die.
Because it is more common that the parent KNEW the child was in the car.

And I don;t think that this could never happen to me. It just never has...and if it did, I would expect to be charged with a crime while things were sorted out.


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## WNB (Apr 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolalola* 
Ok, fine. I'll say it. Yes.

The primary responsiblility of any parent is to keep your child(ren) alive.

If your life is such (enter any reasoning you wish) that you cannot be mindful enough to remember that the child you put in the car, has not been taken out of the car...perhaps you need some childcare assistance.

Criminal charges are not childcare assistance though.

I think the decision to file charges or not can only be made on a case by case basis. Sometimes the situation would warrant it, sometimes not. I'm not exactly sure I follow the reasoning that a DCP should always be criminally charged, but the parents given wiggle room, for the same offense. Is the thinking that the role of DCP makes it _not_ the same offense?


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## zosiasmama (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mother_star* 
I did not read all the replys to this thread.

How the heck does one "forget" that their child is in the car???? How CAN it be an accident to leave your child in the car?

In my opinion, if the parent leaves the child in the car and the child dies, yes they should be charged. No if's but's and and's about it.

This is exactly what I have been thinking since I saw the story and since i tried reading the posts in this thread. I can't believe it took so long for someone to say this. I just don't get HOW you could forget???? I mean come on, this is not your groceries or the dry cleaning ...this is your child...you flesh in blood, a person! I am so boggled by the whole thing.
I just keep wondering how she never thought about her child all day, I mean at some point doesn't your DC pop into your head and make you think.."hey did I drop her off at daycare?"
Danni


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## WNB (Apr 29, 2006)

Humans are hard-wired to form habits and take mental shortcuts. Routines are important to our survival, and when routines get altered bad things can happen. I have never forgotten my child in my car or elsewhere yet, but I have forgotten things that, in retrospect, I ask myself how the hell could I have forgotten THAT??

It's horrible when the consequences for such a minor transgression (forgetting something) are so serious (losing a child). Really bad things do happen. Filing criminal charges every time they happen will not eliminate the problem. I really doubt that it would serve as a deterrent. How can you deter something that occurs precisely because of the lack of a conscious thought process? Deterrence requires one to consider doing something, realize the likely consequence, and change one's mind about doing that something.


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purposefulmother* 
The law allows for cases of criminal negligence. Leaving your child in the car because you forgot would definitely fall under that umbrella in most cases. A higher charge, manslaughter maybe, would be more appropriate for a parent who leaves a child in the car knowingly.

But really, for the life of me, I cannot fathom leaving my child in the car by accident. How can you forget your child is in the car?

I absolutely think parents should be held liable if their child dies because of neglect like this. It's not an "accident." The child didn't wander into the car and lock himself in. The parent was fully responsbile for putting said child into the car and then leaving the child there.

A PP wrote that parent's first responsibility is to keep the children alive. ITA.

I was about to write a long response to this question, but this poster said exactly what I was thinking. So







:


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## True Blue (May 9, 2003)

I'm going to come clean here and tell you I forgot my DD in the car one day. I used to be like the people here, thinking, how the heck could you be so dense as to leave your kid in the car? How do you forget that? It comes down to routine and change, I think. I was going to the Dr's. DD wasn't going to come, DH was home so I could alone. She had a 2 year old fit, so I took her. She fell asleep halfway there. I parked, got out of the car, and went inside. I signed in, waited 3 or 4 minutes, and was shown to an exam room. I sat there for about 3 more minutes, thinking how tired I was and just wanted to sleep...sleep....SLEEP!!!!!! That was when I remembered DD asleep in the car and I RAN out of there and straight to her, where she was, still, fast asleep, unaware of what had happened. It was not a very hot day, thank goodness, and I remembered within about 10 minutes. I felt awful, I wanted to cry. I couldn't believe that happened to ME, ME!!!! I cosleep, ebf, babywear, homeschool, am a huge safey advocate....it just didn't fit. It shouldn't have happened. But you know what? It did. And I really feel for those parents whose situations had dire outcomes for their children. I can't even imagine the guilt they walk around with every day. To judge someone in a place you have never been...you just can't.

What is really needed is some sort of alert system to remind parents the child is in the car, and a few actually do exist in the market already. Not criminal charges. Not for real accidents. (However, if you leave your kid in the car for hour so you can shop or something, that's totally different).


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 

And I don;t think that this could never happen to me. It just never has...and if it did, I would expect to be charged with a crime while things were sorted out.


Well, maybe this is a cultural thing. In my country, Canada, police investigate BEFORE they lay charges. They continue the investigation afterwards, depending, but that's how it works here.


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Holy cow! Is this thread still alive?

Has everyone seen the video of the Ohio mom being interrogated by the police? Painful to watch, be forewarned.

http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm?...b-678b494acea5

That was so heartbreaking. I did think it was strange, though, that she never actually mentioned the baby. But perhaps they just edited all that out. Or maybe it was too hard for her to talk about what was lost.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
Well, maybe this is a cultural thing. In my country, Canada, police investigate BEFORE they lay charges. They continue the investigation afterwards, depending, but that's how it works here.

This makes more sense to me. Especially since, in the U.S., when a parent's under investigation for murder or manslaughter of one child, I think any other children are automatically taken and placed in foster care.

And, once this happens, sometimes the children not immediately returned even AFTER criminal charges have been dropped. Those poor children can end up being separated from their parents for a really long time -- so it makes sense not to just *immediately* charge anyone with a crime.


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## diamond lil (Oct 6, 2003)

I think charges should be filed. Say an adult left his or her limited-function parent or disabled spouse in a hot car and the same tragedy happened? You bet charges would be filed. Why should the law be more lenient on a parent caring for a child? Is a parent's loss of a child somehow greater than the loss of a disabled parent or spouse? I think most people assume that the neglectful parent has somehow "suffered enough;" sorry, but I don't quite buy into that.


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## Rylins mama (Aug 22, 2007)

The thing Im noticing about the parents saying that you have accidentally left your baby in the car before is that it was only for about 10-30 minutes which is a long time but still its not HOURS. I just dont see how you can forget for a long period of time, I mean I would even be calling the daycare, etc. just to make sure everything was okay.


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## fairejour (Apr 15, 2004)

I know that accidents happen, but I'm not sure this was one of them. Don't we (as a society) need to find out what really happened? Just because this woman says she forgot, doesn't mean it is true. The video actually makes me more concerned, she seems...I don't know what, but it doesn't smell right.
I also noticed that each person who has admited to this sort of mistake has said it was minutes that passed not 8 or 10 or 12 hours. Someone needs to look closely each time this happens.


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

I've read a lot of the posts and wasn't quite sure of how I felt. On one hand, the idea of a parent forgetting a child in a hot car for _hours_ is just so out of my range of comprehension.... but I'm pretty sure that the parents who have done this felt the same way, before it happened in their own lives. My heart breaks for their loss. If I had been in their shoes, I don't know if I could go on living after that, honestly. I can't imagine being responsible for the death of one of my kids, just because I was preoccupied or on auto-pilot one morning. Nothing in the world - no punishment doled out by the courts - could make me feel more guilty or more heart-wrechingly broken as a person after that.

I think criminal charges should be determined on a case-by-case basis, personally. I feel totally different about the parents who "forget" because of some variance in their routine (like the father who left his baby in the car at work on a day that he usually didn't handle the morning drop-off routine) than I do about a mom who left her kids in the car while she went in to go tanning.

When I think of some of these parents, who are so obviously destroyed from losing a child, in jail next to rapists and theives and child molesters, it just doesn't sound like justice to me.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *woobysma* 

I think criminal charges should be determined on a case-by-case basis, personally. I feel totally different about the parents who "forget" because of some variance in their routine (like the father who left his baby in the car at work on a day that he usually didn't handle the morning drop-off routine) than I do about a mom who left her kids in the car while she went in to go tanning.


I think this is a really interesting article on it:

http://ggweather.com/heat/ap_sentencing.htm

I don't have much consideration for people who deliberately left their kids. But for people who forgot, I still think it's just too easy for people to say "oh they must be negligent & are totally unlike me."

I maintain that everyone makes mistakes every year that could be fatal, just most of them are not.

I have been thinking about this both generally and because my son is newly in daycare and I think that is the only time that this would be even a remote possibility (that the morning routine was altered). Our daycare calls both parents if the child doesn't show up and they haven't had a call, which is a pretty simple thing to do (and less disruptive than every parent calling them to check up on their child all at 8:30 or whatever). So that practice alone could do it, if all the daycares made it standard.


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## vac70 (Jan 6, 2007)

O.K. I've read most of the posts but not all. I don't know if anyone mentioned this:
Security video shows that she was able to remember (twice) to unload the doughnuts she brought for meetings at her job, but nevertheless left her daughter in her car seat. The event is pictured.

I got this from: http://www.bloggernews.net/19973

It just makes me sick.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vac70* 
O.K. I've read most of the posts but not all. I don't know if anyone mentioned this:
Security video shows that she was able to remember (twice) to unload the doughnuts she brought for meetings at her job, but nevertheless left her daughter in her car seat. The event is pictured.

I got this from: http://www.bloggernews.net/19973

It just makes me sick.

I really do hear where you are coming from, but I keep thinking how she's going to feel every time she brings a bite of anything to her mouth again.

I would think the guilt would kill a person.


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vac70* 
O.K. I've read most of the posts but not all. I don't know if anyone mentioned this:
Security video shows that she was able to remember (twice) to unload the doughnuts she brought for meetings at her job, but nevertheless left her daughter in her car seat. The event is pictured.

I got this from: http://www.bloggernews.net/19973

It just makes me sick.

see, this is one of the cases where I think a parent should be charged. If it's true that this wasn't an isolated thing & she had done it on multiple occasions in the past, I think it's different than if it was just one-time horrible mistake. I remember seeing a guy on Oprah that forgot his baby in the back seat and his child died. Neither he nor his wife had ever forgotten the child before.

I've never forgotten a child in the car, but I did forget to get my dog out of the back of our car after a walk one day a few months ago. We got home, I had to pee, I hurried and got DS2 out of his seat and ran inside. I completely forgot about our dog until 6 hours later when DP mentioned that he hadn't seen him around. I was SHOCKED. Thank god the windows were down and it wasn't hot. I know it's nothing like leaving a child, but that one incident made me always check to make sure every living creature was out of the car when I leave.
If someone has a proven track record of leaving their kids in a car, then yeah, I think steps need to be taken to protect the remaining children in a household when one child dies. It's not unreasonable to think that it could happen again in that case.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *woobysma* 
see, this is one of the cases where I think a parent should be charged. If it's true that this wasn't an isolated thing & she had done it on multiple occasions in the past, I think it's different than if it was just one-time horrible mistake. I remember seeing a guy on Oprah that forgot his baby in the back seat and his child died. Neither he nor his wife had ever forgotten the child before.

If someone has a proven track record of leaving their kids in a car, then yeah, I think steps need to be taken to protect the remaining children in a household when one child dies. It's not unreasonable to think that it could happen again in that case.

I thought what was said was that she made several trips back to the vehicle _that day,_ not that she had left the child behind several times before. Did I miss something in one of the video clips or articles?

I'm thinking the child was asleep or silent when she made the trips back to the vehicle and she somehow didn't realize she was there. I can't imagine the neverending horror of replaying that day over and over in my head for the rest of my life, and knowing that I remembered the doughnuts and forgot my baby.

Is there a question that she actually _knew_ the baby was there?


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## momma2girls (May 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GranoLLLy-girl* 
they accidentally leave their child in a hot car and the child dies?
The issue has been all over the news today with the mother (who was an assistant principal) who accidentally left her toddler in the car and attended faculty meetings for her job. The toddler died.

Several years ago, a man that I didn't really know but knew of through the church, returned from a mission trip with jet lag and left his three year old daughter in the car. She died. This was in Virginia and the last I heard he was charged with child neglect. I do not know what ultimately happened.

I have also heard of people who knowingly left their children in the car (who later have died) because they didn't have anyone to watch them. This, to me, is a different story.

What are your thoughts?

accidently my ass! there is NO reason to 'forget' your child is in the back seat! They should be charged! ABSOLUTELY!


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bigeyes* 
I really do hear where you are coming from, but I keep thinking how she's going to feel every time she brings a bite of anything to her mouth again.

I would think the guilt would kill a person.

Yeah...lets just get rid of the whole justice system.


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## imahappymama (Feb 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma2girls* 
accidently my ass! there is NO reason to 'forget' your child is in the back seat! They should be charged! ABSOLUTELY!

I totally agree. No way a child could be forgotten. No way.


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## lml41981 (Jun 14, 2006)

I haven't read all the replies, so this might be repeating someone...sorry, if so...

I don't think so... I mean, if it is intentional, then yeah...but if it is genuinely an accident, then no. I see it as sort of a slippery slope. How many of us cosleep against the very prevalent recommendations otherwise? If one of our children died due to SIDS, would we support charging the parents because they cosleep? I certainly wouldn't...despite the fact that we all know there are risks to cosleeping.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lml41981* 
I don't think so... I mean, if it is intentional, then yeah...but if it is genuinely an accident, then no. I see it as sort of a slippery slope. How many of us cosleep against the very prevalent recommendations otherwise? If one of our children died due to SIDS, would we support charging the parents because they cosleep? I certainly wouldn't...despite the fact that we all know there are risks to cosleeping.

And since _many more_ SIDS deaths occur when infants are put to sleep in cribs, NOT co-sleeping is even riskier. I see your point, but disagree with the analogy you're using.

I also disagree with the poster who felt that expressing compassion toward a parent who's accidentally caused her child's death, was tantamount to saying, "Let's get rid of the whole justice system."


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I think this is a really interesting article on it:

http://ggweather.com/heat/ap_sentencing.htm

I don't have much consideration for people who deliberately left their kids. But for people who forgot, I still think it's just too easy for people to say "oh they must be negligent & are totally unlike me."

I maintain that everyone makes mistakes every year that could be fatal, just most of them are not.

I have been thinking about this both generally and because my son is newly in daycare and I think that is the only time that this would be even a remote possibility (that the morning routine was altered). Our daycare calls both parents if the child doesn't show up and they haven't had a call, which is a pretty simple thing to do (and less disruptive than every parent calling them to check up on their child all at 8:30 or whatever). So that practice alone could do it, if all the daycares made it standard.

I read that article a few weeks ago, and I absolutely do think that there are cases in which a parent can genuinely forget that his/her child is in the car, especially if there is some switching in the routine as to which parent is taking the child and such.

I do find it interesting that more deaths have occurred since the practice of turning the car seats around has become common. I also find it interesting that fathers and DCP's get different sentencing than mothers. DCP's are apparently jailed more often, but get lighter sentences, as do fathers.

And, FWIW, not everyone who accidentally causes the death of another person is charged with a crime. The circumstances of each case have to be weighed. I am supposing that a woman who "forgets" her child outside a tanning salon is more likely to be charged than a woman or man whose child is left in the car outside her/his office. I also would think that it would be more difficult to forget more than one child, especially if one of the children is old enough to talk.

I don't think that every time a child dies someone should automatically be held accountable.


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## imahappymama (Feb 17, 2007)

I just don't get the idea here that someone could forget the baby in the car. *Someone* buckled/clicked baby in, put the diaper bag in the car, brought the pacifiers outside, covered up the baby with a blanket/ adjusted the sunshade, put the extra diapers in the car and made sure there was a change of clothes or clean clothes to be brought out and taken back to the care provider, sippy cups, bottles, breastmilk/formula, etc...said to their S/O that they were leaving now, do I have everything I need for X, in the car? How is that possible to forget? Most people that I know carry around so much stuff for their child especially what is required if they are cared for at a daycare, there are all kinds of clues in the car to remind them that they are not alone! The stuff is right by their briefcase that they remember to pick up and take into the office!!!


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *imahappymama* 
I just don't get the idea here that someone could forget the baby in the car. *Someone* buckled/clicked baby in, put the diaper bag in the car, brought the pacifiers outside, covered up the baby with a blanket/ adjusted the sunshade, put the extra diapers in the car and made sure there was a change of clothes or clean clothes to be brought out and taken back to the care provider, sippy cups, bottles, breastmilk/formula, etc...said to their S/O that they were leaving now, do I have everything I need for X, in the car? How is that possible to forget? Most people that I know carry around so much stuff for their child especially what is required if they are cared for at a daycare, there are all kinds of clues in the car to remind them that they are not alone! The stuff is right by their briefcase that they remember to pick up and take into the office!!!

These kinds of posts baffle me.

The only conclusion that can be drawn from them is that the person believes that the children are intentionally left to broil to their deaths.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *imahappymama* 
I just don't get the idea here that someone could forget the baby in the car. *Someone* buckled/clicked baby in, put the diaper bag in the car...

Hmmm ... maybe the other parent loaded the baby and stuff into the car the night before, to save time in the morning. Multi-tasking and all that.


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## imahappymama (Feb 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
These kinds of posts baffle me.

The only conclusion that can be drawn from them is that the person believes that the children are intentionally left to broil to their deaths.

What I was refuting is the defense that I have heard/read saying that parents that are out of their routine have to have clues to remind them of their child. My car is now full of junk, but when I have the kids, even as infants, there is always something present to remind me of them. I don't understand this line of defense. I would hope that there are truly parents who don't do this, but that is a lame and unbelievable defense.


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## imahappymama (Feb 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Hmmm ... maybe the other parent loaded the baby and stuff into the car the night before, to save time in the morning. Multi-tasking and all that.

Hopefully they didn't load the baby in the night before...


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## erin_d_a (Jun 27, 2007)

Quote:

The only conclusion that can be drawn from them is that the person believes that the children are intentionally left to broil to their deaths.
I do think this woman was to concerned with her self and her own life and her own stuff to take care of her kid. yes, i think she probably "forgot" but she has a history of doing this. She has done it before. Her tape in the police office is far from remorseful IMO, she just goes on about how she was trying to do stuff for everybody else yadda yadda yadda. If you are so overwhelmed that you forget your kid in the car once, like she had already done before this happened, then maybe you need to reevaluate your priorities. obviously her child was very low on her list of things she cared about. She sure as heck made sure her coworkers had their damn doughnuts. I would like to see charges filed, her serve jail time, and have her rights to her other child terminated.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Actually she had no history of forgetting her children in the car.

Rather she'd been warned by her daycare director not to leave her sleeping toddler in the car while she ran inside to collect her 5 year old.

Just to keep the facts straight.


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Well, in one case that I know of, the mother did those things, putting the sleeping baby in the father's car at the office, talking to the father briefly outside the office before leaving for her own job. The father got an involved cell phone call, ended up running back into the office for something, and got involved in work again, forgetting that the child was in the car. He wasn't normally the parent who took the child, and he slipped back into his work routine automatically.

In the case of the father in the article (which I recommend reading), he had A LOT on his plate, extraordinary stress and circumstances, with a lot of unusual errands and children to care for that day.

I think that it's much easier to forget a child under unusual circumstances, or when there is more than one parent or caregiver involved -- allowing more opportunities for crossing of signals. Unfortunately, a sleeping baby turned around backwards in a seat that is always there being taken somewhere by a parent who doesn't normally have the child is more likely to be forgotten if they are not part of the parent's normal routine.

I've never forgotten any of my children, but there have been times when I've had to look back and make sure that they were there. Stress does crazy things.

Obviously, not every case is a case of a parent forgetting, and sometimes people lie. My point here is only 1> that it IS _possible_ for otherwise good people to forget/not know that their child is with them, and 2> that automatically charging people with crimes, and leaving it to be sorted out by the already overburdened court system is probably not the best course of action. It's the DA's job to determine whether or not charges are necessary (and we know that even that system has its faults).


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Actually she had no history of forgetting her children in the car.

Rather she'd been warned by her daycare director not to leave her sleeping toddler in the car while she ran inside to collect her 5 year old.

Just to keep the facts straight.

Thanks for saying this. I was wondering where some people got the info. that this woman had a "history" of doing this.

In response to the previous poster, I wonder if the woman's other child _wants_ to lose his/her mother. I wouldn't say I wanted the woman's parental rights terminated without even knowing how her child felt about this.

This is part of my concern (which I know I've expressed previously) about instantly slapping charges on a parent prior to the investigation: from my understanding, CPS automatically takes the other children and they can end up being gone _much longer_ than the length of the investigation.

Even if charges are dropped, those kids might be still be separated from their parents for a long time. The separation makes sense if the children are really scared of their parents and don't want to be with them. But if they're just aching to be with their parents, it seems cruel to set up a situation where they're having to process the loss of a sibling in a strange home or institution.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
Yeah...lets just get rid of the whole justice system.

I don't believe I said that. But I am continually amazed at the complete lack of compassion shown for the parents by people on this board.

It always comes down to _I save my compassion for the child._ I don't understand why we're all so perfect that there isn't any room to be just a tiny little bit compassionate to everyone involved.

It sounds like there is a desire to _shame_ the parents and make sure they are publicly identified as _those horrible people who didn't care about their child._ It's such an interesting POV coming from people who are so against shaming, labeling, and punishment.


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## erin_d_a (Jun 27, 2007)

Quote:

, I wonder if the woman's other child wants to lose his/her mother. I wouldn't say I wanted the woman's parental rights terminated without even knowing how her child felt about this.
I know LOTS of kids in the foster care system whose parents abused them who didn't want to be seperated from their parents. This mother is to wrapped up in her self to be a mother. I have almost no compassion for a monster like this who leaves her child to broil and bake in her own car, ESPECIALLY after leaving her child in the car the day before.

Quote:

Actually she had no history of forgetting her children in the car.

Rather she'd been warned by her daycare director not to leave her sleeping toddler in the car while she ran inside to collect her 5 year old.
isn't this a history of doing the same thing? AND it was the DAY BEFORE her child baked to death that she was warned by her daughters school not to leave her child in the car.

She is obviously a sick woman, and is very self absorbed, as are so many parents today. I feel terrible for her daughters and for her husband, but have no pity on her for putting herself above her children. She obviously has much more love for her co-workers than for her child.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bigeyes* 
It sounds like there is a desire to _shame_ the parents and make sure they are publicly identified as _those horrible people who didn't care about their child._ It's such an interesting POV coming from people who are so against shaming, labeling, and punishment.

Yes. I didn't get a response when I shared, earlier in this thread, about some of the things I've learned through practicing gentle discipline with my children. But it really seems connected to me. I think attachment parenting should increase our capacity to have compassion on _everyone_, whatever the age.

I also don't understand the reasoning that, "I have to choose *one person* to have compassion for, and that's it." Does that mean if you have 2 or more children, you're forever taking sides in every dispute? You literally can't ever empathize with *both* your children?

Of course, many of us who are learning to attachment parent and practice gentle discipline, didn't get these things when we were growing up. Maybe our attachment-parented children are the ones who will grow up and bring the compassion full-circle. I hope so.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I realized post was too personal, and deleted it.


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## erin_d_a (Jun 27, 2007)

Quote:

I think attachment parenting should increase our capacity to have compassion on everyone, whatever the age.
I agree with compassion. Most people who know me think I'm one of the most compassionate people they have ever met. There is a BIG difference between having compassion on somebody, and seeing justice. Just because we have compassion, doesn't mean that we also don't want to see someone punished for their crimes. Being gentle, compassionate, etc... should NEVER exclude justice because they are all interrelated.


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *erin_d_a* 
I agree with compassion. Most people who know me think I'm one of the most compassionate people they have ever met. There is a BIG difference between having compassion on somebody, and seeing justice. Just because we have compassion, doesn't mean that we also don't want to see someone punished for their crimes. Being gentle, compassionate, etc... should NEVER exclude justice because they are all interrelated.

Ah, see, but I personally struggle with society's NEED to _punish_ people for their crimes. I see a need to end crime, I see a need for people to make reparations for their crimes to the extent that it's possible, I see a need for people to learn to make better decisions, and I see a need for those among us who are not able to stop hurting others to be placed in secure locations for the protection of us all. However, the need to punish others, to make certain that they feel shame and feel bad for what they've done, in the name of justice, is an ideal that I've been having trouble with as of late. I'm not sure that one can truly have compassion for someone and _punish_ them at the same time. As I see it, punishment and correction are two different things, as are justice and punishment.


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Yes. I didn't get a response when I shared, earlier in this thread, about some of the things I've learned through practicing gentle discipline with my children. But it really seems connected to me. I think attachment parenting should increase our capacity to have compassion on _everyone_, whatever the age.

I also don't understand the reasoning that, "I have to choose *one person* to have compassion for, and that's it." Does that mean if you have 2 or more children, you're forever taking sides in every dispute? You literally can't ever empathize with *both* your children?

Of course, many of us who are learning to attachment parent and practice gentle discipline, didn't get these things when we were growing up. Maybe our attachment-parented children are the ones who will grow up and bring the compassion full-circle. I hope so.









:


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

What a sad topic.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Yes. I didn't get a response when I shared, earlier in this thread, about some of the things I've learned through practicing gentle discipline with my children. But it really seems connected to me. I think attachment parenting should increase our capacity to have compassion on _everyone_, whatever the age.

I also don't understand the reasoning that, "I have to choose *one person* to have compassion for, and that's it." Does that mean if you have 2 or more children, you're forever taking sides in every dispute? You literally can't ever empathize with *both* your children?

Of course, many of us who are learning to attachment parent and practice gentle discipline, didn't get these things when we were growing up. Maybe our attachment-parented children are the ones who will grow up and bring the compassion full-circle. I hope so.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *theatermom*
Ah, see, but I personally struggle with society's NEED to punish people for their crimes. I see a need to end crime, I see a need for people to make reparations for their crimes to the extent that it's possible, I see a need for people to learn to make better decisions, and I see a need for those among us who are not able to stop hurting others to be placed in secure locations for the protection of us all. However, the need to punish others, to make certain that they feel shame and feel bad for what they've done, in the name of justice, is an ideal that I've been having trouble with as of late. I'm not sure that one can truly have compassion for someone and punish them at the same time. As I see it, punishment and correction are two different things, as are justice and punishment.









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I know when I think of the suffering of those little ones, I want desperately to believe that *I* could never be *that* parent. I cannot imagine forgetting my child was in the car, much less forgetting and leaving my child all day. But really, I have not walked a mile in the shoes of that mother who left her baby in the car. I cannot say that it would never be me, b/c I realize that it could be under the "right" circumstances-because I am human, and not fundamentally different from that mother. We love to believe that "we" are _so_ different from "them, those people who do bad things." But we aren't, really. We are so much more alike than we are different. Beyond that, this mother is a human being, and human beings are complex and affected very much by their circumstances. And so yes, I have as much compassion for the mother as I do for the child. Compassion is not approval, compassion is not excuse, compassion does not preclude accountability, responsibility, making reparations, or protecting the public. Compassion is merely seeing the _humanity_ of the other, in it's complexity, rather than seeing only their actions and judging by such a narrow view. And, too, compassion is seeing ourselves in the other, because we are all human.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *theatermom* 
Ah, see, but I personally struggle with society's NEED to _punish_ people for their crimes. I see a need to end crime, I see a need for people to make reparations for their crimes to the extent that it's possible, I see a need for people to learn to make better decisions, and I see a need for those among us who are not able to stop hurting others to be placed in secure locations for the protection of us all.

That's where I'm at, too. IMO, people who've received empathy as children learn to feel empathy for others. When parents model empathy to their children, and help their children think about how their words and actions affect other people, their children usually grow into individuals who automatically feel remorse when they realize they've caused someone pain.

When someone manages to grow up without ever learning empathy, and seems unreceptive to learning it as an adult (and harms others), I agree that this person poses a threat to society. I totally understand the need to take protective action. But punishment? What these people need is empathy -- to get empathy to the point where they've been filled enough to care about the feelings of others.

And in the meantime (yes, I fully realize some may never get this need filled within their earthly lifetimes),

they (people who harm others without remorse)

do need to be in a secure place where they can't do more harm. But punishment serves absolutely no purpose.

Punishment serves no purpose for people who *have* empathy -- because they already feel remorse and are eager to make restitution in any way they can. And punishment serves no purpose for the ragaved souls that *lack* empathy -- because they're not capable of remorse and are likely to just become increasingly bitter and estranged from society.

Quote:

However, the need to punish others, to make certain that they feel shame and feel bad for what they've done, in the name of justice, is an ideal that I've been having trouble with as of late. I'm not sure that one can truly have compassion for someone and _punish_ them at the same time. *As I see it, punishment and correction are two different things, as are justice and* *punishment*.
Yes (the bolding is mine).


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
We love to believe that "we" are _so_ different from "them, those people who do bad things." But we aren't, really. We are so much more alike than we are different.

Yes, I hear the same criticism directed at crime victims. It's professionally called "blaming the victim." It scares us to believe we live in a world where horrid things can happen. We want to find some way to distance ourselves from the victim, to reassure ourselves that we're "more different than alike."

Quote:

Beyond that, this mother is a human being, and human beings are complex and affected very much by their circumstances. And so yes, I have as much compassion for the mother as I do for the child. Compassion is not approval, compassion is not excuse, compassion does not preclude accountability, responsibility, making reparations, or protecting the public. Compassion is merely seeing the _humanity_ of the other, in it's complexity, rather than seeing only their actions and judging by such a narrow view. And, too, compassion is seeing ourselves in the other, because we are all human.
Yes ... that's profound.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bigeyes* 
I don't believe I said that. But I am continually amazed at the complete lack of compassion shown for the parents by people on this board.

It always comes down to _I save my compassion for the child._ I don't understand why we're all so perfect that there isn't any room to be just a tiny little bit compassionate to everyone involved.

It sounds like there is a desire to _shame_ the parents and make sure they are publicly identified as _those horrible people who didn't care about their child._ It's such an interesting POV coming from people who are so against shaming, labeling, and punishment.

But this lady is ridiculous. Going to the car to get donuts and still not realizing that her child was in the car?

I am not saying that every time this happens someone should get in legal trouble. But this particular case sounds like there is a chance that mom knew her child was in the car.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *erin_d_a* 
..Her tape in the police office is far from remorseful IMO, she just goes on about how she was trying to do stuff for everybody else yadda yadda yadda..

Good god. She's catatonic at times, panicky and near hysterical at others. She says she wants to die, she doesn't want to live without her child because they are everything to her. She says she is the worst parent in the world and asks what kind of a person does this?

Even the police interrogator breaks down and starts consoling her after awhile.

You're an odd one for me to understand, erin_d_a.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
If investigation reveals it was a true accident and the parents are remorseful and grieving, no, I don't think charges should be filed.

If, however, the child was left by say, a DCP, even if it was an accident, charges should absolutely be filed.

Why? Isn't a parent more likely to remember their child in the car than a daycare center?

(I'm not against pressing charges against a DCP as a concept, just curious why parents should get off and they shouldn't.)


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
Why? Isn't a parent more likely to remember their child in the car than a daycare center?

(I'm not against pressing charges against a DCP as a concept, just curious why parents should get off and they shouldn't.)

I agree with you -- but I'm supposing the pp sees the forgetful DCP as negligent of her *paid* duties -- whereas parents aren't paid to be parents? I dunno. I wish I knew what ThreeBeans meant.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

As a parent and a DCP, I can't see a difference between forgetting one of my own kids and one of the ones I watch.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
As a parent and a DCP, I can't see a difference between forgetting one of my own kids and one of the ones I watch.

I see your point. But some parents feel more critical of a DCP who, for instance, yells at children -- even parents who yell a lot themselves. They hold the DCP to a higher standard.


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## erin_d_a (Jun 27, 2007)

Quote:

You're an odd one for me to understand, erin_d_a.
darn and you were the one I was trying to impress. Shoot, guess I failed.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *erin_d_a* 
darn and you were the one I was trying to impress. Shoot, guess I failed.

Well, at least you're willing to own up!









I wonder what it's like when you're NOT trying to impress anyone.


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## thebee321 (Dec 13, 2003)

As far as this Ohio lady (brenda the doughnut lady) I feel she should be charged for being negligent. If you look at the video from the doughnut shop, didn't she leave the baby in the car there too? This is why I think it's good that it is illegal to go more than 10 feet from teh car in CA and leave child in car. If you do it often it becomes a bad habit and then it is easy to forget about the child because you are used to going into places without your child in your arms or following behind you.

It's crazy that she is eager to go back to work. I don't think I could bear to return to the spot my child died by my negligence every day.


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## Softmama (Jun 10, 2003)

I'm going with YES I think the parents should be charged. I have never forgotten one of my kids but I am not someone who doesn't understand how that happens. I do understand it. I am TERRIFIED of doing it. I check my kids car seats compulsively. If I ever do forget, I think I would deserve to be charged.
to respond to the following:
"So any time a child dies while in the care of his parents the parents should be charged with a crime and let a trial by jury work it out?"
I'd say yeah. that's kind of the whole point.
I also agree with the person who said being held accountable would help them deal with it.
I don't think thats too harsh. If a child dies, there needs to be someone looking into the death.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Softmama* 
"So any time a child dies while in the care of his parents the parents should be charged with a crime and let a trial by jury work it out?"
I'd say yeah. that's kind of the whole point.
I also agree with the person who said being held accountable would help them deal with it.
I don't think thats too harsh. If a child dies, there needs to be someone looking into the death.

I agree that someone needs to be looking into the death -- but an *automatic* *charge* of murder or manslaughter? Do you realize how that affects the other children in the home? CPS won't currently let children stay with parents who've been charged with the death of a child.

I know I keep going over the CPS thing -- but it seems awfully uncaring to say "any time a child dies while in the care of his parents the parents should be charged with a crime and let a trial by jury work it out."

When you say *any time a child dies*, this includes *all manner* of accidents and illnesses. Things the parent may not have even been able to prevent. To automatically slap a criminal charge on all such cases (I guess even SIDS deaths) is to automatically jerk the surviving (and grieving) siblings away from their parents.

I don't see how this kind of "accountability" would "help me deal with" my child's death. It would just create more pain for my family, more issues to deal with in working to get my other child home, and, once she's home, to help her work through the trauma of spending months in foster care.

An automatic charge doesn't necessarily mean a prison term for the parents -- but it does mean an automatic imprisonment (of sorts) for the other children in the home. They're the ones being punished.


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