# Respectfully, please close



## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Well, I can see this is going nowhere. Some posts are helpful, most not. Every time I attempt to deconstruct, the basic advice is "life is not fair" (no kidding), "leave your husband," "make your husband do his 'fair' share" (interesting), "handle your responsibilities yourself," and "just go out and build your own village."

Deconstruct further and you find that _some_ people are SAHPs with supportive to semi-supportive spouses and / or full or semi-villages, who aren't in this place and while have their own struggles probably do not get _this_ on _this_ level. Granted, there is no way to compare.

_I'm not blaming everyone else and shirking all my responsibility._

God, I've done the opposite of that and carried more of the load for longer than I think is healthy, but with no alternative, that's what needs to be done. _And I'm doing it. I'm not waiting around for someone else to do it._

'Life is not fair' is not an answer. It's a trite saying. To say no one has any obligation to be fair to another person is just...bizarre. People have obligations. They don't always live up to them. Yes, life is unfair. Obviously. The ends don't justify the means.

Yes, I'm quite sure my inlaws pick up on some of the tone. I'm sure they are uncomfortable as heck around these parts. Their actions PREDATE all of this and are a cause of at least some of it.

It isn't accurate to assume the "response" to (or effect of) their actions is the "cause" of their actions.

First comes the chicken, then the egg.

Sure, things can compound and get worse, but the cause comes first, the reaction second.

_I can't argue against a mob of people. If the chorus says something, then there must be truth in it._

Parents on these boards talk about the need for a village ad nauseum. But say you need a village a little too much, when the going gets really tough, and you might be interpreted as thinking you are demanding a village, expecting a village, thinking you deserve nothing less than a village.

It either takes a village or it doesn't. I feel it does. Or life is perpetually like pulling an all nighter in college. But if there is not one, then that doesn't remove personal responsiblity, and that has not happened here.

Somehow some of you have criticized me for complaining as though that is all I am doing.

I'm not resting on past accomplishments and shirking responsibilitiy. I am pulling an unending all nighter. I need a village, like all of you, and sometimes that might be hard to see or understand if you have givens in your life taken for granted or accepted as fundamentals. I think this is human nature. I'm sure I do it myself on many levels.

Lastly, I'm stunned none of you feel your parents or inlaws have any obligation to your children. In an ethical context, for discussion's sake, if a child's parents die or become disabled, or incarcerated, or incapcitated, do grandparents have no obligation? Do grandparents with means and age have no obligation to the children of their children? It's interesting the responses I have read here and yet you will find in many other forums here on MDC statements about how American society differs in parenting cultural norms from other cultures where the extended family collectively cares for children as a village.

It's just interesting - our cultural norm of independence versus collective and how it manifests in parenting.

It's also funny how 5 minutes of posting and complaining about a longstanding inequitable situation becomes shirking responsibility and not fixing things myself when the 23 other hours of the day are spent doing just that at an exhausting pace.









--


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

I'd realize that they are never going to change and figure out what that meant for me.


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## pianojazzgirl (Apr 6, 2006)

Mama, I've read what you've written about your inlaws before. I can tell how much their behaviour hurts you and I'm sorry. If I were you I would be hurt too. That said, you can't control what they do - only your response. For your own well-being I think you need to work towards letting go of your anger and resentment. Do not expect any more of them than what they already give. I wouldn't look to them for help (help after c-section, financial help for stuff for the kids, etc), because you will just end up hurt and disappointed again. It is very sad that they are missing out on a closer relationship with their grandson (your ds). I wish they would change, but nothing in their behaviour suggests that they will. For your own healing I think you need to accept this and put away any and all expectations that they will be there for you and your family.

Again, I'm sorry mama.


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## EmmysMama (Oct 11, 2009)

Sounds kind of like my kids' grandparents. Both sets in different ways.

My MIL favors her other son, so spends boatloads of money "helping" him and his kids. Poor them, their housekeeper







can only come two days a week, so she has to go drive (not a short drive!) and go get the boys so they're not in the housekeeper's way. Because their parents work so hard and it would be a shame if the housekeeper couldn't get the house clean for them. They have money for multiple sports, classes, and activities too (in addition to the housekeeper) but my MIL will go make the drive (again!) and chauffeur them to all their stuff, plus buy their karate uniforms, camp snacks, daycare nap mats, tee ball equipment, etc. And no, their mom doesn't work.

My parents make excuses like "I have arthritis!" (my mom) and "I have back pain!" (my dad) and "Gas is so expensive!" for why they can't make the trip. But my mom can drive to the outlet mall three hours away and carry huge bags by herself, and my dad can drive all over the state for work (including past our house, but does not ever stop). And they have money to buy my teen sister things like a car, a chihuahua, and more fancy clothes than she could ever wear.

So yeah, other grandparents do things like that. The only thing I can do is stop expecting them to be fair. It sucks for my kids (because they will notice sooner or later), but there's really nothing I can do about it. Maybe they'll feel bad and try harder when the kids themselves call them on it. I would think they were either choosing to ignore their unfairness, or justifying it to themselves. And I would stop expecting them to be fair and asking them for help, because that's probably not going to happen.







You can confront them, but they'll just rationalize it away and call you crazy.


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
I'd realize that they are never going to change and figure out what that meant for me.


Let it go. There's nothing you can do that you haven't already done. You've invited them many times, they've declined, just stop. You're only hurting yourself.


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## SubliminalDarkness (Sep 9, 2009)

I agree with previous posters. This is the way they are, for whatever reason. It's wrong, there is absolutely no doubt. But nothing you say or do will change them.
I would cut off my expectations of them so that you are not disappointed, and so your child is not disappointed.

I'm sorry. I have in-law issues, too.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamalisa* 
Let it go. There's nothing you can do that you haven't already done. You've invited them many times, they've declined, just stop. You're only hurting yourself.

Right. I know.

But I really need their help, actually. Well, I don't need it. My kid does. We need the help...somewhere, somehow. We need the help.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
Right. I know.

But I really need their help, actually. Well, I don't need it. My kid does. We need the help...somewhere, somehow. We need the help.

But its not going to come from them. So sorry.

I too, am married to the unfavorite child... my in-laws favor the other grandchildren to the point that they are spoiled brats. I realize now that I've been better off without their interference.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

I agree that it sounds like your IL's just don't have the same type of relationship with your DH than they do their other son (or daughter?). It isn't fair to your child, but it is what it is. I wouldn't take it personally, and I would stop wasting energy feeling annoyed that they went on a cruise instead of to see you all. Also, don't consider counting on them to visit or watch your DS for a M-F like you were hoping for. That way, if they do end up coming to stay and offer to help out - it will be unexpected and very much appreciated, yk?

What about your parents? Do they make time and effort to have a great relationship with your child? If not, then I would really try to focus on the good things about your IL's. Some kids don't have grandparents, and others see them very rarely. I don't think there really is a fair way to grandparent, BTW, even though I do agree that it sounds like your IL's favor the other family, and spend more time and $ on them -- but just like parenting more than one kid, it's not going to be an equal type of deal. If anything, your DH should be working on the relationship he has with his parents. Can he, you, and DS go to visit the grandparents instead of wait until they come to you? Then maybe you'd feel like your child isn't as left out.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *philomom* 
But its not going to come from them. So sorry.

I too, am married to the unfavorite child... my in-laws favor the other grandchildren to the point that they are spoiled brats. I realize now that I've been better off without their interference.











Sorry for you, too.

I wouldn't say DH is the unfavorite child, but maybe he is. I don't know. I guess I'm not privy to their personal thoughts and actions speak loudly. MIL sure overlooks anything he does that isn't stellar. She's always done that. FIL is sort of hands off on everything in life. The issue is more that my husband is very passive about his relationship with them, and pretty much with everything in life.

FIL and MIL love the location where BIL lives. And they love his pool, etc. They love the climate. They visit often because, honestly, it's sort of like a vacation to them. And then BIL makes good money and BIL and SIL, according to my inlaws "you know them, no holds barred when it comes to money..." maybe try to fit in with the Jones, so to speak. Whenever they talk about their visits they'll say how new and expensive and nice everything is where BIL lives so I really think on some level they are trying to fit in. Weird.

I don't get it.

Then another layer is that BIL has some issues with actions on the part of FIL growing up, about how good of a dad he was, how active, how engaged. And so FIL in some ways might be trying to make up for that. DH doesn't really have any issues with his dad, or if he does, he's not going to bring them up because his dad will fall off the wagon...again. Also, I do think DH just doesn't even want to deal with his dad. The relationship is hard to understand fully. They're not the kind of people to really think about it, talk about it, solve it, or acknowledge it.

FIL just won't visit, and DH is like whatever, his loss, but what bugs me is that DH should be looking out for our son now.

But then DH is sort of hands off too...I guess like his father. It's layered and I don't even fully understand all the layers. I just don't like the unfairness and the reluctance to make things better or address issues. They'd all rather just keep the status quo and not be called out on anything.


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## greenmansions (Feb 16, 2005)

I'm sorry your IL's are so inattentive to your family. I agree with other posters that I'd stop engaging them - don't invite them anymore, don't call them anymore, and leave it up to them. Inviting them means you're hoping for a different outcome than you have gotten all the other times, and you set yourself up for disappointment.

Are there ways to make friends within your child's world? Places like your neighborhood, parenting groups, preschool, kindy when it comes - all are great places to meet other families. We've made some great friends along the way with whom we can swap childcare just to get some work done or to go on dates, and it is a big help.


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## pianojazzgirl (Apr 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greenmansions* 
Are there ways to make friends within your child's world? Places like your neighborhood, parenting groups, preschool, kindy when it comes - all are great places to meet other families. We've made some great friends along the way with whom we can swap childcare just to get some work done or to go on dates, and it is a big help.

This is a good idea. We have no family where we live or anywhere near where we live, but we do have friends here who are really like family to us. We help them and they help us. With kids, with work around the house (building fences, things like that), and we would even help each other out financially if the other was in a bind (though luckily we all have parents that are able and willing to help us on that front). I wish for you that people like this will come into your life. It's a godsend.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I think I'd be thankful that I don't have these toxic people in my life very much. They sound rather selfish and self-absorbed- can you imagine spending several weeks with them around your children, several times a year?


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## mumkimum (Nov 14, 2006)

If I had inlaws like this: I would end up feeling less important and resent their behavior. I'd probably make lots of mean remarks with my dh about it and complain. I'd feel hurt. I'd feel responsible for making even more sacrifices for my kids to try to make up for what (I felt) was a poor relationship that I couldn't control.
That said, I think kids don't really know what relationships with their relatives *could have* been like, and don't feel the same kind of disappointment as acutely as their parents. I also think I'd strive to let my feelings go and just try to not notice what they did, but I'm sure every so often I'd fall back on feeling badly about the situation.

what would I do: At best, I'd try to get involved in things that made me and my family less available to them overall and find and cultivate relationships for my family with neighbors, friends that had a 'grandparently' feel to them. My parents even had pretty decent relationships with their parents and we still ended up doing this since we always lived pretty far away from them.

We've had our own dilemmas with dh's mom who spends significantly more time with bil's family (mainly as they have lived at her house for a few weeks or months at a time when they've been in this area) and, even though we live local to her - she's constantly canceling plans with us she makes to go shopping or gambling or whatever, complains about how our schedule isn't more convenient for her and she never sees our kids. I've had to shrug it off by realizing that the only way she's open to what I think a good relationship would involve would mean we'd have to live at her house, or right next door or something (which isn't worth it to me) so that it would work for her to be involved with our family it when she wants.

It might be, in your case, that you'd get the relationship you want if you cast aside your financial responsibilities and catered to them significantly more such that they'd be vacationing and treated to stuff that cost you a lot of money when they were with you - would the debt and subservience be worth the relationship? Would moving to somewhere they'd like to visit more at the expense of your life where it is worth it? It might be that your bil & sil's family didn't do this on purpose, but it just ended up to be something that motivated his parents to get more involved in their lives.


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

I would be THRILLED not to spend the time with them and have them around.

Wish I was this lucky


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

My dad's parents were like that too. My brother and I definitely knew we weren't the favorite. Kelly was the golden child. We never had a chance. They weren't mean, or hateful. It was just common knowledge that Kelly was favored.

In the long run, it almost worked out. (in a selfish way) When my brother, cousin and I grew up, my cousin was expected to call them every Sunday. We not only were never called by them, they didn't expect a phone call from us. We were never made to feel guilty if we didn't drop everything and run to their sides when they were upset, sick or anything. But, my cousin was. It was almost as if she owed them.

My other grandmother was as fair as they can be. She loved us all equally, and if you asked any of the cousins who was her favorite we all say "I was".

I say, let it be. Don't worry about it. You can't change it, and they don't feel like changing it. It's nothing you are doing, or not doing. It's not about your son at all.


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## mama1803 (Mar 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
I think I'd be thankful that I don't have these toxic people in my life very much. They sound rather selfish and self-absorbed- can you imagine spending several weeks with them around your children, several times a year?











I too have a selfish and self-absorbed MIL (FIL not as bad but he is getting there). The kindest thing I can say about her is that she is toxic. She shows no favoritism when it comes to her 4 grandkids--she is equally disinterested and insulting to all. It's a tossup as to to which daughter-in-law she dislikes the most (me or SIL). I used to lament the lack of a relationship, think that there surely must be something I could do to win her over, worry that my kids would suffer because of her inattention. I used to bend over backwards to issue invites for the holidays, birthdays, etc. Now I'm actually thankful that she doesn't show more of an interest in my kids--she's toxic--mean sprited, selfish, racist, she lies, and has no clue as to proper social interaction. I could go on and on. I'm at the point now where I feel my role is to protect my kids from her ugliness and toxicity. She visits once a year, for about 3 days, and that is more than enough for all of us. My SIL is in the same boat is me as far as her kids are concerned.

I'm sorry you are struggling with this.







My only advice to you is to raise your child as best as you can to know that he is loved and cherished. Surround him with as many people as you can who love him and will treat him well and can be good role models. When all is said and done he will realize that the relationship (or lack thereof) is their loss and not his.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumkimum* 
It might be, in your case, that you'd get the relationship you want if you cast aside your financial responsibilities and catered to them significantly more such that they'd be vacationing and treated to stuff that cost you a lot of money when they were with you - would the debt and subservience be worth the relationship? Would moving to somewhere they'd like to visit more at the expense of your life where it is worth it? It might be that your bil & sil's family didn't do this on purpose, but it just ended up to be something that motivated his parents to get more involved in their lives.

I think you are right about this. I could go out and spend a couple thousand dollars we don't really have and get a great couch, a pool, a big tv, a grill, and MIL and FIL would love it. Those are the draws at my BIL and SIL's home. They love it. I can't change the climate where we live, but I could make other changes. I just don't feel like going into debt for my inlaws. The more they say and do the more selfish and shallow they seem.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
I think I'd be thankful that I don't have these toxic people in my life very much. They sound rather selfish and self-absorbed- can you imagine spending several weeks with them around your children, several times a year?


Yeah, I am thankful for that. I mean this was going on before BIL/SIL and we had kids, but only to a certain extent. Not this much! Back then, I didn't care. I mean, it didn't affect me. Now that it's my child they're ignoring, oh, yeah, I'm mad as hell. They don't get to treat him like he's less. And that is exactly what they are doing.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

How old are your children? We have family who isn't all that involved, and my kids really don't think anything of it. If you don't make a big deal out of it, the kids won't make a big deal of it.

I'm sorry you're hurting and I'm sorry they aren't giving you and your family the support you feel you deserve. But from the multiple times you've posted, they aren't going to change. They just aren't. And the sad, hard truth is, they aren't obligated to change. They aren't obligated to help. They aren't obligated to give your children what they choose to give to others. And it sucks, for sure, but you seem to be directing a lot of energy into trying to make them change or trying to understand the why behind it. Sometimes, there is no why. Sometimes people just suck. They do get to treat him like he's less, as much as that stinks. They get to do whatever they want with their time and money. The only thing you get to control is your own reactions. You can choose to be bitter and keep directing all this energy their way, or you can choose to move on. But you're not going to change them.


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

Sorry, TIN, but I have to agree w/ everyone else. My ILs are similar, and it bothered me a lot at first but then I realized that they treated their son pretty much the same way. I mean, if they weren't interested in their own son, why would they be interested in his, right? It's hurtful to us but I don't let myself think about it--what's the point--and try to focus on the small non-crappy things they do. The ironic thing is I'm sure my ILs think they're great parents and g'parents. I don't think it's going to affect our kids at all unless we (the adults) make it an issue, b/c sadly, that's their normal.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
My kid does. We need the help...somewhere, somehow. We need the help.

what kind of help? ONLY answer this question if you need help with finding strategies of where you can turn for help. the somewhere somehow part.

the key here is you aint gonna get it from your in laws. at the most they MIGHT be willing to do is give you some $$$.

but mama you need to use all your hurt energy to look elsewhere.

and in case your son needs loving gparents he can find some. they dont need to be related by blood.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
I think you are right about this. I could go out and spend a couple thousand dollars we don't really have and get a great couch, a pool, a big tv, a grill, and MIL and FIL would love it. Those are the draws at my BIL and SIL's home. They love it. I can't change the climate where we live, but I could make other changes. I just don't feel like going into debt for my inlaws. The more they say and do the more selfish and shallow they seem.

I think I'd call for quotes for a) a deep-cleaning and b) once every other week or once a month cleaning before I did that.

It might be time to throw some money at the problem - I know money is tight and I almost never would recommend consumer debt, but this might be the exception. If you have a line of credit where interest isn't ridiculous, I'd call and get those two quotes. It might be less than you think and worth it for the mental boost.


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

I think sometimes parents like one of their kids more than another. Especially once they become adults. They may get along better, or have more in common, or share values/goals etc. Parents are also people, and it has to be okay for them to not treat all their kids exactly the same, especially grown children.

Your IL's like their other son more, for whatever reason, perhaps they value "nice" things a lot and see that he shares that value, perhaps they do want to go on vacation and not really go "help." They have decided that they would rather spend time with BIL. SIL and their kids, end of story, they have more fun there. Nothing is going to change that, they may see that your dp isn't that concerned with it, or may have ongoing historical issues together as a family. They are people who get to make decisions, they have decided that they'd like to have fun and spend time with BIL.

You need to make a decision about how you can get the help you need and it has to be a decision you can make, you can't make a decision about what someone else *should* do, only what *you* are going to do.

Dp's brother lives close to their parents, their parents spend more time and money on bil and sil because of their proximity. Bil works at the same place as FIL, they spend more time together etc. Right now dp and I have the only grandkid, but I know that MIL told SIL that if she had a baby, that MIL would quit her job to provide childcare while SIL worked.


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## Aufilia (Jul 31, 2007)

It sounds a lot like my ILs, really. We have two sets of ILs, MIL + stepFIL, and FIL + stepMIL. MIL/sFIL spend tons of money on vacations and trips, but are always "broke". So they pull stunts like spending 2 weeks in the Bahamas, then spend $10 for DD's birthday. MIL was here for 2 weeks after DS was born and hardly spent any time with DD. She slept more than I did and dirtied up my kitchen and talked DH into buying a ton of food at the grocery store so she could cook for us, but never did. FIL/sMIL are very nice, but not involved. I don't think they sent anything for Christmas this year, or for DD's birthday, but I could be wrong. They're scattered about that. But last time we were at their place for Thanksgiving they had a closet packed FULL of stuff for sMIL's grandkids. FIL mostly wants to spend time with DH when he's here, and sMIL, while she is nice to our kids, is not terribly interested in them. (Which is too bad because I really like sMIL and enjoy her company... wish I could trade her for my MIL.)

Anyhow. I hope your kids have other grandparents who don't suck. I feel blessed that we live near my parents, and that my parents are awesome grandparents to our kids.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
what kind of help? ONLY answer this question if you need help with finding strategies of where you can turn for help. the somewhere somehow part.

the key here is you aint gonna get it from your in laws. at the most they MIGHT be willing to do is give you some $$$.

but mama you need to use all your hurt energy to look elsewhere.

and in case your son needs loving gparents he can find some. they dont need to be related by blood.











Easy to answer!

Since DH gets only two weeks of paid leave, and can't/won't take any unpaid leave, that leaves A LOT of time to cover when school/daycare is closed and when there are appointments or a sick kid.

So, I need help with that so that I'm not covering all of it, or 95% of it as I have for the last 2 plus years.

MIL does help BIL/SIL with this, albeit only four times a year for a week. But still.

I also need help with some babysitting when I have a rare appointment for myself.

I need someone (paid help? DH? MIL?) to cover me when I have to travel out of state for work, about 4-5 times a year. And on days when I have meetings and conference calls when I don't have daycare. I work somewhere between part time and full time, usually 30-35 hours a week. So, I don't have full time daycare. Maybe that is something to go into debt for...I don't know.

I also would like someone to watch our son on the occasional time we need to do a major project. I've got two that have been hanging out there for well over a year. I can't do them because DS would be underfoot in a dangerous environment. And I kind of need to do these things before I can sell the house.

And then, I would LOVE some help with things like shoes and clothes, classes for OT needs, toys, you know, that kind of stuff - the kind of stuff MIL and FIL do all the time for the other grandkids.

That's the help I'd like to see and which would make a big difference.


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## bestjob (Mar 19, 2002)

My mother didn't make the effort to understand my kids and our more down-to-earth lives. She's been disappointed by one of my brothers, and my other brother's kids have grown up and moved far away, and now she is old and sick and doesn't have the energy to see my kids. They come along with me and visit occasionally, but the conversation is kind of stilted because it's a conversation among strangers.

While my mom was too busy for us, we built up massive numbers of friends. Last month we went camping with a group of 32 friends and neighbours.

My sister has a friend whom we both agree is her kids' "true to heart" grandmother.

The rest of the world wants to know your family. They want to be friends and caregivers and they can provide the love and support that your husband's family can't find it in their hearts to give you.

As for money, that is very hard. Your kids can get dressed at Value Village and Goodwill, though, and if you can shelter them and feed them, you will be just fine.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I think I'd call for quotes for a) a deep-cleaning and b) once every other week or once a month cleaning before I did that.

It might be time to throw some money at the problem - I know money is tight and I almost never would recommend consumer debt, but this might be the exception. If you have a line of credit where interest isn't ridiculous, I'd call and get those two quotes. It might be less than you think and worth it for the mental boost.

Thanks. Yeah, I'm not one for consumer debt, but I see the point and I've thought about it. A year to 6 months ago I took out a line of credit, 2 low interest credit card from the bank, and a higher interest credit card from a credit card company, all in addition to what I had previously and still have. So, I have oodles of credit, if I need it in an emergency. The balances are all zero. I just did it just in case...just in case DH goes off the handle more than he already has.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

I am there, too... except MIL agreed to move in with SIL and BIL and babysit, thus spending basically a whole 6 months with them. So, when we went on vacation WITH HER, all she talked about was our niece, even when on the phone while we were on vacation. She spent 10 minutes telling my other BIL about dn, but when asked how things were on vacation, she just talked about the weather... not a single word about our kids







I realize that part of it is because she just spends more time w/dn and part of it is that she feels uncomfortable around us because she doesn't "get" (much less agree with) our parenting choices, but it just makes me so sad that my kids are getting ignored.









She doesn't stay here because she is allergic to the cat.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
I'd realize that they are never going to change and figure out what that meant for me.

That. You can't make them have a relationship with your son. And you can't make them like your family more than sil's.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

I would just assume that they had a better relationship with the other family and leave it at that. I wouldn't care much about it. Now if it was MY parents then it would be a different scene. But my IL's? Spending 4 weeks a year with my IL's sounds dreadful to me (not that there is anything wrong with them, I just like privacy).

I don't know what to tell you. You have a list of things you want from them. Maybe they can perceive that? I'd be less than enthralled if my DIL had a list of time/financial needs that she expected of me. I know it can be hard. We don't live near family but we have made good friends here and we work it out.

If I were you I would put your energy into building a support network near your home. Do your best to close your budget gaps (can someone get a second job? adjust expenses?). And then just move on.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
You have a list of things you want from them. Maybe they can perceive that? I'd be less than enthralled if my DIL had a list of time/financial needs that she expected of me.

No I don't. I just want them to be equitable between the grandkids. The list is what they do for the others. I'm not generating it.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
Do your best to close your budget gaps (can someone get a second job? adjust expenses?). And then just move on.









Sigh.

DH this weekend when I brought up the idea of canceling cable again...

"Jesus Christ, it's almost football season. No! No way!"

DH wouldn't get a second job. No way. He's said that. Before having kids, when planning things out, he said he'd deliver pizzas. Now he says he's made too much "progress" in his career to be held to that.

I don't know...a second job for me? I can't do my first one and everything else. That's the problem...that's why I need more help.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
I don't know...a second job for me? I can't do my first one and everything else. That's the problem...that's why I need more help.

I want to gently say that you can't force them to like you or your family or want to help you. It's never going to happen. So many circumstances have already proven this. It doesn't matter if you need help; you are simply not entitled to it. It's your own bad luck or poor planning, perhaps, that you didn't marry and have children with someone who had parents who would be more supportive or that you don't have your own family nearby to be supportive and helpful, or that both of you don't make more money so that you can afford to pay for all of this help.

You need a plan to fix what your reality is and make it better, not continue to stress about what the in-laws will never ever do or change to.

I wanted my inlaws to be better people for a very long time and the best thing we ever did was to cut them out of our lives entirely. Sure, it'd be nice if they would babysit on occasion or watch our animals when we go out of town, but in 9 years of living in the same town as them (usually within a 5 minute drive of them), they have never once watched the children for us. It will never, ever, ever happen (well, if we were still talking to them). I believe our children are better off not having a relationship with people who treat them like second class citizens. Your child is better off not knowing that there is such inequity in the family, too. If you don't tell him, he probably won't notice, at least for a while.

Meanwhile, make some friends. We have zero family that we can count on, so we make our community amongst friends. When my friend and her husband won a cruise in a contest, we watched their children while they went away for three days. When they want a night out, we watch their children. When we go to a childbirth class or have an appointment, they will watch our children. I now have a number of friends who are always willing to help us with childcare and in return, we will help them. It's free, it's useful, and it's lovely to have that community, better than having family, I think.

As others have said, let it go and move on. Pretend they don't even exist and then they won't be able to hurt you so much.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Honestly? I wouldn't make any efforts to contact them nor get my child involved with them. I just...wouldn't. I'm sorry that they hurt you but I wouldn't continue pushing them to do something they don't want to do. I'd protect my child from them because sooner or later my child would realize that they are treated unfairly.


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## zeldamomma (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
I would just assume that they had a better relationship with the other family and leave it at that. I wouldn't care much about it. Now if it was MY parents then it would be a different scene. But my IL's? Spending 4 weeks a year with my IL's sounds dreadful to me (not that there is anything wrong with them, I just like privacy).

I don't know what to tell you. You have a list of things you want from them. Maybe they can perceive that? I'd be less than enthralled if my DIL had a list of time/financial needs that she expected of me. I know it can be hard. We don't live near family but we have made good friends here and we work it out.

If I were you I would put your energy into building a support network near your home. Do your best to close your budget gaps (can someone get a second job? adjust expenses?). And then just move on.









This is something to consider. Different families can have very different expectations about what they should expect from each other. In my family, it's a BIG deal for anyone to ask a family member for financial help. If we needed to ask my parents for money, I would ask them, and dh would have as little to do with it as possible. An uncle by marriage expected my grandparents to offer financial support throughout their marriage and it ruined any possibility of his having a good relationship with them. What was normal in his family felt like a huge imposition to mine, and it wasn't about whether or not they had the money, because they did (and my grandparents did offer the couple quite a bit of support, they just didn't like doing it), it was about an expectation that each generation would be self-sufficient. My uncle grew up with an idea that there was "family money" that flowed from one generation to the next and so he felt like they were being cheap or mean, when that wasn't really fair.

Whether or not it was anything you've done, I agree with pp that you need to give up any expectation that they'll change, and find a way to let go of the anger.

FWIW, my ILs do not want the kind of relationship with my kids that I once hoped they would have. It is painful for me, but I've found that my kids take them as they are and aren't hurt by their failing to meet my expectations.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
I just want them to be equitable between the grandkids.

not to be facetious or belittle your need creating so much angst over this need is - a bit childish. please know i say this with full support. i remember when i was at my lowest i so wanted a sugar daddy. doing it all alone had just hit me really hard.

i might as well have said 'i want the moon within my grasp'.

i know and understand the unfairness of it all - i have walked this with family myself.

they are not an option. in a sense they do not exist.

please i really dont want you to feel judged by me. i want you to have the freedom to vent. but i sense this is beyond venting. it is a deep, core issue with you.

maybe they may have a change of heart someday. but now. as others have said its better to build your support network elsewhere.

even finding MDC mamas in the find your tribe section might be a start.

i think you are v. wise to keep your debt to zilch. i would not like to bring it up with childcare costs. if anything happens its always there for you. but keeping it nil is a great idea.

you'd be surprised how much help there is around. i have found my help.


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

It sounds like you need some reliable childminding help. Your ILs and DH are not going to do that for you, so you need to find some other way to get that. Local students? Local SAHM who could use a few $ here and there? Private (or public) center that takes drop-ins? The YMCA maybe?

As far as favoritism, it sucks. It's just plain wrong. You don't deserve it. You can't change them. You need to let go of your expectations of them - expect to see them once a year and let them suprise you with more. Don't hope for more and be disappointed.

Tjej


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverSky* 
It's your own bad luck or _*poor planning*_, perhaps, that you didn't marry and have children with someone who had parents who would be more supportive or that you don't have your own family nearby to be supportive and helpful, or that both of you don't make more money so that you can afford to pay for all of this help.

My bolding. Poor planning? Really?

With all due respect, I waited until my 30s to have ONE child. I built a career. I maintain that career now. I built up $50k in savings before having a child (now used up). I have nearly that much in retirement now. I put myself through college 100% on my own. I own a home and saved the down payment myself, with DH. We've never gotten anything from his parents, and zilch from mine.

I've helped my parents and siblings considerably with groceries, rent, clothing, bills. Thousands of dollars before we had kids.

I used to give to charity before I had a baby.

I've never been out of the country or on any kind of a vacation. I have worked professionally for over 10 years and purchased most of my work clothes second hand.

No credit card debt ever. My credit score is over 800.

Um, I'm sorry, I'm like the most responsible person I know. Not bragging. Seriously. I am really like the most responsible person I know.

I have done the planning.

What I want from my inlaws is fairness in how they treat their grandchildren. Not financial contributions to our bills. I want them to buy and do approximately the same for each of their grandchildren.

There is no poor planning to make up for here. Have you heard of the bad economy? My house is worth less than I bought it for a few years ago. My marriage has suffered because I'm probably married to an engineer with Asperger's who can't understand why I would need help and doesn't have the social capabilities to make changes in his life or career. I didn't know what Asperger's was in college when I got married. I thought he was just a smart nerd. I never expected him to flip out the way he has.

If the housing market were like it were 5 or 10 years ago I would have been able to sell, divorce, and move on.

Respectfully, this isn't about poor planning.

This is about poor grandparenting.


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## carmel23 (Jul 21, 2006)

I'm sorry you can't depend on your family. My family knows all about tough times and being financially strapped. It stinks. It makes everything hard and stressful, even things that should be fun. But we've survived and you will, too.

Just a thought, do you think you could borrow money from the wealthy BIL? Or at least ask?

And I don't expect my parents or my in-laws to treat all the grand kids the same. It is really hard to do that.

Your husband's parents are retired adults. I think they should be able to do whatever they want to do with their time and money. I know that sounds harsh, but I wouldn't want someone visiting my family just because they visited my brother's/sister's family, yk? Id want them to visit because they want to visit.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carmel23* 
Just a thought, do you think you could borrow money from the wealthy BIL? Or at least ask?

Well, for one, they're not wealthy, just successful I would put it, or rather more successful than DH, but also harder working, I believe, and two, I wouldn't ever dream of borrowing money. I'm not really looking for cash. I'm looking for fairness from the grandparents. I don't want to ask someone else to make it up to my son. BIL and SIL have a less direct relationship, right? They have no obligation to us. I mean, I could go out and work more, theoretically. I'd rather do that than borrow money. I could borrow from the bank, a line of credit, or credit cards. I'd rather do that than borrow from inlaws.

But when it comes to gifts given to the grandkids, I want fairness. I'm tired of them treating my kid as less. It's not so much about the things, as much as the sentiment. They always give less time and less money. And that just smells bad after a few years.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
But when it comes to gifts given to the grandkids, I want fairness. I'm tired of them treating my kid as less. It's not so much about the things, as much as the sentiment. They always give less time and less money. And that just smells bad after a few years.

You really need to let this go, it seems to be eating you up with angst. Life is not fair, we learn that very young. But we just have to get on with life, fair or unfair. Your ILs can't be forced into fairness.


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## zeldamomma (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 

But when it comes to gifts given to the grandkids, I want fairness. I'm tired of them treating my kid as less. It's not so much about the things, as much as the sentiment. They always give less time and less money. And that just smells bad after a few years.

How is dwelling on this helping you?

You can not change this. They can be unfair, and no amount of anger will make them be fair. They aren't being good grandparents to your son, but your being right about that doesn't help here.

How do you know how much time and money they give to the other grandkids? If it were me, I would do my best to stop getting that information-- when they start talking about it, leave the room, change the subject, end the phone call, whatever. If you find out about it on facebook, block them. You need to stop ruminating about this, it's not good for you.

Is there any chance that you're depressed? Please take care of yourself


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamalisa* 
Let it go. There's nothing you can do that you haven't already done. You've invited them many times, they've declined, just stop. You're only hurting yourself.

i agree, i feel bad for you that they prefer them over your family but thats just how life is sometime, unfair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Is the reason you are again trying to broker peace in the Middle East by force of will (to refer to an earlier thread) that your H is trying to convince you that you are wrong about the unfairness or something? You have never, in any thread of yours I've read, quoted him as saying anything that makes any sense at all. He talks like an Alice in Wonderland character according to your quotations of him. Based on everything you have ever written about him, there is no reason ever to take anything he says seriously. Well, I take it back-- sometimes you say he informs you point-blank that he will never change, you can take that part seriously.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

I would like fairness too. My situation is different. I have 2 DD's. They have different fathers. DD1's gran, XMIL, lives 4miles away and has NEVER visited her here. She sees DD when XP bothers to take DD to her. Which is rarely. She has very little money and doesn't spend it on DD. She cares for her other 2 granddaughters FULL TIME when they aren't in school and sees them multiple times a week.

DD2 has 2 loving involved grandparents, who, bless them, make a huge effort to be fair with DD1 and never give more to her sister than to her. But you know what, when FIL visits here (every week) DD1 knows he never did that before her sister was born. When they gaze at the baby and see their sons eyes, they can't hide their pleasure and DD1, at 4 years old, can tell their love for her is different. Not less. But different. They try SO darn hard - they spend money and time equitably, they give attention fairly, they treat her like one of theirs, but now there is a comparison to make, by comparison you can see the difference.

I would do anything to make the situation fair for my DD1. Anything to have XMIL care as much as MIL and FIL do, or even as much as she does for her other grand children. Anything to have MIL and FIL love her AS family and not LIKE family. But i can't do anything. Life is NOT FAIR. And it's not going to be fair, not for my kid, not for yours. You, and I, cannot make it fair. The best we can do is raise resilient children who are able to celebrate what they have and give their love freely to those who love them, however unfairly that love is distributed.

Your anger over this situation is a waste of energy and if your child picks up on it will be transmitted to him, potentially damaging how he feels about both his grandparents and his cousins. Which will only further complicate family relations while still making nothing more fair. Isn't it better to let him enjoy what contact he has with these people, however "unfair" the terms seem to you, than to taint what he does get with your anger over what you think he should get?

Your issues with the help you need are not your IL's problems, they're yours and you cannot go to your IL's with them - they have demonstrated most abundantly how they feel about that. Seek other answers, let go of these expectations whic are never going to be met and which are causing you such pain. Your son is lucky, even if his GP's aren't fair, his mother has a strong sense of justice. You can't make anyone treat him fairly but you can raise him to treat others fairly, which is a powerful gift for him and for the world.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
Respectfully, this isn't about poor planning.

This is about poor grandparenting.

I guess I just cannot comprehend why you would want to have people who you obviously do not like to be responsible for caring for your son. Is all of this anger really worth a few days of babysitting spread out over a year's time?

My in laws are very similar - they will move heaven and earth for my SIL's daughters but rarely see my two girls. Does it irritate me and make me feel terrible for my husband - yes. Will I ever let my girls know how I feel - nope because I'm pretty sure that if things don't change significantly they will see the disparity all on their own. I want them to make the decisions regarding how they feel about their grandparents but until that day comes I will visit when invited but I certainly would not go out of my way to leave my girls alone with them as I would feel horrible if they were unhappy or not wanting to be there. Instead I would gladly pay for a babysitter (if necessary) so that they can be in the care of someone they enjoy being with.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
Your anger over this situation is a waste of energy and if your child picks up on it will be transmitted to him, potentially damaging how he feels about both his grandparents and his cousins. Which will only further complicate family relations while still making nothing more fair. Isn't it better to let him enjoy what contact he has with these people, however "unfair" the terms seem to you, than to taint what he does get with your anger over what you think he should get?

Exactly. I do my very best to keep my feelings to myself - the last thing I want are for my daughters to feel that I made them hate their grandparents. Instead, I encourage them to have fun while we visit, even bring things with to keep them occupied and happy so that they don't feel bored or ignored. In time, if the grandparents don't change, they will see them for what they truly are and will be able to make their own decision as to how close they want to be. I would never purposely let my feelings influence my children's.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
You really need to let this go, it seems to be eating you up with angst. Life is not fair, we learn that very young. But we just have to get on with life, fair or unfair. Your ILs can't be forced into fairness.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *zeldamomma* 
How is dwelling on this helping you?

You can not change this. They can be unfair, and no amount of anger will make them be fair. They aren't being good grandparents to your son, but your being right about that doesn't help here.

How do you know how much time and money they give to the other grandkids? If it were me, I would do my best to stop getting that information-- when they start talking about it, leave the room, change the subject, end the phone call, whatever. If you find out about it on facebook, block them. You need to stop ruminating about this, it's not good for you.

Is there any chance that you're depressed? Please take care of yourself










Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharlla* 
i agree, i feel bad for you that they prefer them over your family but thats just how life is sometime, unfair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
Is the reason you are again trying to broker peace in the Middle East by force of will (to refer to an earlier thread) that your H is trying to convince you that you are wrong about the unfairness or something? You have never, in any thread of yours I've read, quoted him as saying anything that makes any sense at all. He talks like an Alice in Wonderland character according to your quotations of him. Based on everything you have ever written about him, there is no reason ever to take anything he says seriously. Well, I take it back-- sometimes you say he informs you point-blank that he will never change, you can take that part seriously.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
I would like fairness too. My situation is different. I have 2 DD's. They have different fathers. DD1's gran, XMIL, lives 4miles away and has NEVER visited her here. She sees DD when XP bothers to take DD to her. Which is rarely. She has very little money and doesn't spend it on DD. She cares for her other 2 granddaughters FULL TIME when they aren't in school and sees them multiple times a week.

DD2 has 2 loving involved grandparents, who, bless them, make a huge effort to be fair with DD1 and never give more to her sister than to her. But you know what, when FIL visits here (every week) DD1 knows he never did that before her sister was born. When they gaze at the baby and see their sons eyes, they can't hide their pleasure and DD1, at 4 years old, can tell their love for her is different. Not less. But different. They try SO darn hard - they spend money and time equitably, they give attention fairly, they treat her like one of theirs, but now there is a comparison to make, by comparison you can see the difference.

I would do anything to make the situation fair for my DD1. Anything to have XMIL care as much as MIL and FIL do, or even as much as she does for her other grand children. Anything to have MIL and FIL love her AS family and not LIKE family. But i can't do anything. Life is NOT FAIR. And it's not going to be fair, not for my kid, not for yours. You, and I, cannot make it fair. The best we can do is raise resilient children who are able to celebrate what they have and give their love freely to those who love them, however unfairly that love is distributed.

Your anger over this situation is a waste of energy and if your child picks up on it will be transmitted to him, potentially damaging how he feels about both his grandparents and his cousins. Which will only further complicate family relations while still making nothing more fair. Isn't it better to let him enjoy what contact he has with these people, however "unfair" the terms seem to you, than to taint what he does get with your anger over what you think he should get?

Your issues with the help you need are not your IL's problems, they're yours and you cannot go to your IL's with them - they have demonstrated most abundantly how they feel about that. Seek other answers, let go of these expectations whic are never going to be met and which are causing you such pain. Your son is lucky, even if his GP's aren't fair, his mother has a strong sense of justice. You can't make anyone treat him fairly but you can raise him to treat others fairly, which is a powerful gift for him and for the world.










Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
I guess I just cannot comprehend why you would want to have people who you obviously do not like to be responsible for caring for your son. Is all of this anger really worth a few days of babysitting spread out over a year's time?

My in laws are very similar - they will move heaven and earth for my SIL's daughters but rarely see my two girls. Does it irritate me and make me feel terrible for my husband - yes. Will I ever let my girls know how I feel - nope because I'm pretty sure that if things don't change significantly they will see the disparity all on their own. I want them to make the decisions regarding how they feel about their grandparents but until that day comes I will visit when invited but I certainly would not go out of my way to leave my girls alone with them as I would feel horrible if they were unhappy or not wanting to be there. Instead I would gladly pay for a babysitter (if necessary) so that they can be in the care of someone they enjoy being with.

I'm not angry. I'm disappointed. And drowning.

It does take a village. I don't want them to come so I can be friends with them. I want them to be fair so that my son isn't left as a latch key kid or in crappy daycare at the expense of my career, or conversely so that my career isn't torpedoed because I need to care for my child without a village.

If I had the resources to hire a nanny rather than ever relying on anyone I would. But I don't, and I won't, and what I've been doing for the last 5 years 'ain't' working.

This isn't anger. It's desperation. Here are some grandparents - related by blood to my son - who have the means and the interest to be the kind of grandparents we need to their other grandchildren. I just want them to widen their net. I'm desperate.

Unless I get some help, either the parenting or the career is going to suffer. I can't do it all on my own, at least not at this age and with these special needs. Just can't.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Turn it around:

Think of whatever help or assistance or support - whatever - you get from your children's grandparents - both sets or more than two sets.

Now subtract that from your life.

How does that feel? Is it OK? Doable? Acceptable? Would you be OK? Desperate? (I guess this would only apply to those of you with kids who are juggling two careers and raising children...having a SAHP would be a whole different ball of wax here...).

Now consider that the help / support you had is now going to someone else's kids. It doesn't have to be one or the other. It could actually be _both_. But your parents or inlaws are still able to provide the support...just not to you. And you can't totally disregard it and ignore it because they're a part of the life and you see it and they tell you about it, and they make up bogus excuses as to why it's happening like "we can't visit you because you work" and "well, we stay longer or do more for them because we buy airfare to visit them and we drive to see you..."

Turn it around. I know there is acknowledgement that it's less than ideal, but, really, would you be able to do all parenting and all career balancing without any sort of village of support?

And how do you react when the inlaws - or whomever - want to schedule a visit that lasts 4 hours to drop off some gifts for your child but they have to do it the week before, or two weeks before, because they are planning - again - to fly out for a week at Christmas to visit their other grandkids and they want to spend Christmas Eve, Christmas morning, all day Christmas with the kids and the week after shopping with them and building them playsets and playhouses and spending time with them and babysitting?

What do you do then? Because every year they are treating your child like an after thought and like he's less important. Do you let them?

And how would you feel if your MIL is talking to a group of other grandmothers she exercises with who are remarking how nice it is that your MIL is able to visit her out of state grandchildren every 3 months for a week and your MIL says "oh, yes, it's so important when they are young. We like to go out for a week every three months." And the women say, "We didn't know you had another grandchild, too! We've never heard you mention your other son's family."

Crazy.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

No one is saying that what they are doing is good. At best, a few people here have said that it's acceptable; most of us agree that it is wrong. What everyone is saying is that they are never going to change no matter what you do.

So, I just did the thought experiment you suggested. And I came up with an answer for what I would do-- take it for whatever it's worth. Number one, I probably would run up those cards, walk away from the house, and generally trash my credit (after getting an apartment) in the way I outlined on the other thread. Number two, I understand that you don't want to give out your location in a public forum. I would go to the Find Your Tribe section and make a list of everyone within two hours (or whatever, depends on the area) of you; then do a search on your old threads of the past couple of years to see if any of them are people who are at all familiar with your situation; then I would pm them and ask for help.

ETA: you're saying, would I "let" these hypothetical grandparents treat my son worse than their other grandchildren? No more than I "let" hurricanes and earthquakes occur. No more than I "let" the banking system collapse in 2008. It would not be under my control.


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## zeldamomma (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
Turn it around:

Think of whatever help or assistance or support - whatever - you get from your children's grandparents - both sets or more than two sets.

Now subtract that from your life.

How does that feel? Is it OK? Doable? Acceptable? Would you be OK? Desperate? (I guess this would only apply to those of you with kids who are juggling two careers and raising children...having a SAHP would be a whole different ball of wax here...).

Now consider that the help / support you had is now going to someone else's kids. It doesn't have to be one or the other. It could actually be _both_. But your parents or inlaws are still able to provide the support...just not to you. And you can't totally disregard it and ignore it because they're a part of the life and you see it and they tell you about it, and they make up bogus excuses as to why it's happening like "we can't visit you because you work" and "well, we stay longer or do more for them because we buy airfare to visit them and we drive to see you..."

Turn it around. I know there is acknowledgement that it's less than ideal, but, really, would you be able to do all parenting and all career balancing without any sort of village of support?

And how do you react when the inlaws - or whomever - want to schedule a visit that lasts 4 hours to drop off some gifts for your child but they have to do it the week before, or two weeks before, because they are planning - again - to fly out for a week at Christmas to visit their other grandkids and they want to spend Christmas Eve, Christmas morning, all day Christmas with the kids and the week after shopping with them and building them playsets and playhouses and spending time with them and babysitting?

What do you do then? Because every year they are treating your child like an after thought and like he's less important. Do you let them?

I would find a way to cope that wouldn't drive me crazy. This is what it is, and plenty of people deal with worse. Your obsessing about this is the main problem here. It's not healthy, and it's why I suggested you may be depressed. The world is full of people who would be happy to offer you support, but you aren't going to find them while you focus on your ILs.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
Turn it around. I know there is acknowledgement that it's less than ideal, but, really, would you be able to do all parenting and all career balancing without any sort of village of support?

are you serious?!!! seriously!!!

go over to the single parenting family and ask them this.

my village comes from 'framily' that i have created. friends who became family. i dont have any family here. ex's parents are too old and now gone. i even have a guardian in case i die. not a family member. not ex but my dd's and my bf.

and i did it alone. by myself with some coparenting and no financial support from ex.

no i absolutely dont wish this on anyone.

but it can be done. it IS being done.

the thing we all are trying to tell you is that help is there. the village is there. it does not have to be with gparents who dont care.

and yes yes yes. i was the pariah in my family. my dd is the pariah - someone to be pitied and ignored. her cousin gets the strawberry milk. my dd gets plain milk. at the SAME dinner table. cousin gets the breast and my dd gets ONE wing piece and that's it.

do i let them? i guess in a way i do. if i continue to visit them then yes i do.

however i dont. i consider myself having no family that i care about. we do see them at different rare family functions, but i have moved on. i can smile and be polite. and the fly into the arms of the framily i have created.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

I honestly think a lot of parents don't get tons of help and support from the grandparents. Many of us live in different states. Fairness in parenting/grandparenting doesn't really exist -- and it would be exhausting to compare all the time.

TIS, I do think it stinks that your IL's favor their other son and aren't the devoted kind you'd prefer, but I agree with PP's in that you can find help elsewhere. I would totally start by connecting with local MDC mamas.








to you.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
are you serious?!!! seriously!!!

go over to the single parenting family and ask them this.

I have been in that forum, and many kudos to the single parents out there. But when you read the forum, many, many of the people posting live with their parents or did, and many are on govt assistance, which is sort of like a partner that helps when there is no partner, no?

I'm all for govt assistance, and support it fully, and have no qualms with my tax dollars going to it. I'm a bleeding heart liberal and think it's a necessity in society to protect children, elderly, and the disabled. Just wanted to say that.

But when you read the forum for single parents, there are not too many single parents out there not getting help from their own parents or from public assistance. There are some, yes, and to all we should give them kudos and respect. Because it is a hard job.

And, yes, I was serious to answer your other question.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
I honestly think a lot of parents don't get tons of help and support from the grandparents. Many of us live in different states. Fairness in parenting/grandparenting doesn't really exist -- and it would be exhausting to compare all the time.

I'm not looking for tons of help and support. I'm looking for some support and fairness.

Really? Really, truly you all feel that grandparents are under no obligation to treat their grandchildren fairly? I'm not talking about in all phases of life. I mean, I can see if a 20-something grandchild rips off or steals from a grandparent, they have every right to cut them out of their life.

But I'm talking about the under 5 set. Innocent, sweet kids who are just that - innocent, sweet young babes.

Grandparents are under no obligation to treat them fairly? Even when there are only 5 total and all around the same age?










I just don't see any justification for treating _KIDS_ you are related to differently.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
that your IL's favor their other son.

Hmmm...I don't see why favoring one son would then traslate to favoring some grandkids over others.

I'm not even sure they do favor one son over the other. I think they favor the pool, the warmer climate, and the setting. Probably they favor SIL over me. They give in to the other son more, and always have, but I don't see why that would translate to spending way more time and way more money on some grandchildren than others, particularly grandchildren whose parents make more money than others and therefore have more to begin with.










I don't get that. I can see why they would treat the adults differently. But the kids? And young kids at that?


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

I don't think that anyone is saying that it's ideal. But I agree with everyone else that it is what it is, and you just have to accept it. Venting here is a healthy way of dealing with it, but beyond that there really isn't much you can do. I wouldn't ask them for financial help again: that seems to be setting yourself up for a fall.

FWIW both my parents and all of my in-laws but one live on a different continent. My FIL and his second wife live about two hours from me. We see them maybe 3 or 4 times a year. We have a good relationship with them, but they are very busy. They both work full time, and in their spare time they enjoy traveling. They go on vacations all over the world a few times a year. And no, I don't hold it against them. They (well, my FIL... his wife does not have children and they met and married while DH was an adult) already raised kids. Many grandparents feel like their job is done. My parents aren't particularly helpful (and we only see them about twice a year) and DH's mother and her family are not in a position to be of much help, physical or emotional or financial.

I do think that a village would be a really nice thing to have, but I don't have one. It's hard, but we scrape by. When I was a child, my parents had even less support than I do. My mother's parents were dead and my father was estranged from his family. I can count on one hand the number of times in my childhood that I met a relative other than my parents.

It sounds like your ILs like your SIL and BIL better, and more importantly they like their house better. It is what it is. They've already raised their children and worked hard and now they want to enjoy their old age. It may not be fair, but there really isn't anything you can do but accept it.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
I don't think that anyone is saying that it's ideal. But I agree with everyone else that it is what it is, and you just have to accept it. Venting here is a healthy way of dealing with it, but beyond that there really isn't much you can do. I wouldn't ask them for financial help again: that seems to be setting yourself up for a fall.

FWIW both my parents and all of my in-laws but one live on a different continent. My FIL and his second wife live about two hours from me. We see them maybe 3 or 4 times a year. We have a good relationship with them, but they are very busy. They both work full time, and in their spare time they enjoy traveling. They go on vacations all over the world a few times a year. And no, I don't hold it against them. They (well, my FIL... his wife does not have children and they met and married while DH was an adult) already raised kids. Many grandparents feel like their job is done. My parents aren't particularly helpful (and we only see them about twice a year) and DH's mother and her family are not in a position to be of much help, physical or emotional or financial.

I do think that a village would be a really nice thing to have, but I don't have one. It's hard, but we scrape by. When I was a child, my parents had even less support than I do. My mother's parents were dead and my father was estranged from his family. I can count on one hand the number of times in my childhood that I met a relative other than my parents.

It sounds like your ILs like your SIL and BIL better, and more importantly they like their house better. It is what it is. They've already raised their children and worked hard and now they want to enjoy their old age. It may not be fair, but there really isn't anything you can do but accept it.

I do see what you are saying. And others, too. There are no guarantees of fairness. I get that.

I also see that when relationships are not traditional, for instance, when there are divorces and remarriages and step inlaws, the circumstances would probably be different. I mean, I feel for people writing posts who say their step-MIL prefers her own grandkids. That's got to be hard because there isn't anything that can be done to change the bond, most likely.

But with my inlaws, they are the full-blooded parents/grandparents, married only to each other. The grandkids are both from their son (as compared to one son and one daughter which might explain a difference in the relationship) and the grandkids are all within a year of age of each other, which might be another explanation if perhaps they are spoiling a newborn or bonding more with a teenager.

So, all things are pretty equal in those terms - the scenario. Same blood lines. Same ages.









I guess I just look at it from my perspective: how do I give presents to cousins of my son? Obviously, I like some siblings better than others, right? And I'm closer to some than others. But I always get the same darn level of gifts and spend the same on the kids (the cousins). I didn't buy one kid a better or nicer gift because I liked that parent better. I buy all the cousins the same price range and pretty much the same things, age appropriately. Why can't my inlaws do that?

I could even imagine in the future not liking a daughter-in-law as much as another. I can't fathom letting it impact how I treat my grandchildren!

And finally, I guess what is most difficult to accept in all this is that the people who have let me down, like my own parents, have done it because of situations sort of beyond their control, like alcoholism or poverty or illness. I can get that and accept it with understanding and grace. I mean, if grandma is too impoversished or drunk or arthritic, I'm not holding that against them.

But DH's parents are retired (not working), healthy, financially sound, and they do for other grandkids what I'd like them to do for all. It's that they are choosing to do less and it's not because of poverty or alcohol or something.


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## lafemmedesfemmes (Nov 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
*What would you think of inlaws like this? What would you do?*

i would think it's pretty crappy of them to treat their grandchild this way, in light of the fact that they treat their other grandchildren so differently. i'd be hurt. i'd be pissed.

i'd stop thinking of them as a potential resource for anything, really. i wouldn't cut them out of my life, but i wouldn't ask them for anything, or offer them anything. if they offered to visit, or to give my kids gifts or something, i'd probably accept it graciously, but i certainly wouldn't take those gestures as a given. and i'd move heaven and earth to find another way to fill that gap in my and my kids' life.

it would be sucky and really unfair, and a lot more work, on top of everything else you already do. i'd be really grumpy and resentful. but in the end, i'd let it go. what else can you do, really?

christina


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lafemmedesfemmes* 
i would think it's pretty crappy of them to treat their grandchild this way, in light of the fact that they treat their other grandchildren so differently. i'd be hurt. i'd be pissed.

i'd stop thinking of them as a potential resource for anything, really. i wouldn't cut them out of my life, but i wouldn't ask them for anything, or offer them anything. if they offered to visit, or to give my kids gifts or something, i'd probably accept it graciously, but i certainly wouldn't take those gestures as a given. and i'd move heaven and earth to find another way to fill that gap in my and my kids' life.

it would be sucky and really unfair, and a lot more work, on top of everything else you already do. i'd be really grumpy and resentful. but in the end, i'd let it go. what else can you do, really?

christina

Yeah. What else can you do, really? Not much. What you described is what I did for basically 4 years. And then MIL and FIL did some even crappier things and I finally put my foot down and confronted them about why they were doing this and asked them to change. Well, DH did. He asked them to change. And they said they would but then they didn't. Same old, same old. So, I mean, do I put my foot down and say, no, you can't continue to do this? You either play fair or not at all? I'm sick of them treating DS like he's the "red-haired step child" or whatever the saying is. They seriously treat him like he's second class. And why should I let that happen? He's not. They're the ones lacking class IMO.

My feeling now is the old addage "if they can't play nicely, they have to go home."


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## lafemmedesfemmes (Nov 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
Yeah. What else can you do, really? Not much. What you described is what I did for basically 4 years. And then MIL and FIL did some even crappier things and I finally put my foot down and confronted them about why they were doing this and asked them to change. Well, DH did. He asked them to change. And they said they would but then they didn't. Same old, same old. So, I mean, do I put my foot down and say, no, you can't continue to do this? You either play fair or not at all?
























Quote:

I'm sick of them treating DS like he's the "red-haired step child" or whatever the saying is. They seriously treat him like he's second class.
no kidding!

Quote:

And why should I let that happen? He's not.
you shouldn't!

Quote:

They're the ones lacking class IMO.

My feeling now is the old addage "if they can't play nicely, they have to go home."






















if it's gotten to that point, then they have no place in your life.

christina


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## confustication (Mar 18, 2006)

Why do you have an expectation of fairness or support? They have proven- repeatedly- that isn't what they are going to do, or who they are going to be.

I guess you can keep hitting your head against the same brick wall and raging about how unfair it is, and that you need the help. I don't think I'd have the energy for that, myself.

Instead, you take a look at what you need to change in your life to create the life you want. No, you can't 'have it all' you can't maintain a career at 100% and being a parent at 100% all the time- that's just reality. You stated, correctly, that you need the help. It is up to you to create that help in a way that won't leave you angry and lost and grasping at straws of a superficial relationship trying to weave it into something more, because that isn't going to happen. They have been clear with you, so now it's time to move on.

FWIW, I was the grandchild in your son's position growing up- with both sides of the family. I guess it was unfair, but since my folks took it at face value, so did we. We had fun in the time we saw our grandparents, and the rest of the time, the focus was our family. No one made a big deal of it. Sure, my parents could have used the support- my brother and I were latchkey kids growing up, my cousins were met my their mom and our grandmother after school. Not all families HAVE to be equal and fair. I think it's important to know that it isn't always fair.

You talk about the village, and I get that longing- but sometimes the village you have isn't the one you need. It is up to you to accept that and create the village in which to live your life. We are not bound by the limitations of our biological families. Create a network of support among like minded families and friends.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

If you think the time has come to cut them out, and your husband is on board, that's entirely your prerogative. It might not work logistically if your husband is not on board with it, of course.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
I'm not angry. I'm disappointed. And drowning.

It does take a village. I don't want them to come so I can be friends with them. I want them to be fair so that my son isn't left as a latch key kid or in crappy daycare at the expense of my career, or conversely so that my career isn't torpedoed because I need to care for my child without a village.

Unless I get some help, either the parenting or the career is going to suffer. I can't do it all on my own, at least not at this age and with these special needs. Just can't.

It is not your in laws responsibility to make sure that your son is not a latch key kid.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
It is not your in laws responsibility to make sure that your son is not a latch key kid.

I'm also not really understanding that. I don't understand in general why you haven't just moved on and second/third the question about possible depression in you? I get this way when I am down. I pour my energy into things that have no real answer or consequence. It's avoidance for me. IDK if that rings a bell w/you.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
It is not your in laws responsibility to make sure that your son is not a latch key kid.

True enough.

But probably all latch key kids are such because there was a lack of a village, no?










It's true. It's not my inlaws responsibility.

But, it is my responsibility to only allow those who care and connect to my son to be a part of family life. If he's treated as less by someone, then it's my responsibility to disallow that. What mother would stand by while her child is treated as less? Not me.


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## luckymamaoftwo (May 25, 2010)

I really feel for you. I know that it must be super hard.

Where is your family? Are they close to you at all?

Has your DH tried to have a heart to heart with his parents, or is that totally out of the question?


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
True enough.

But probably all latch key kids are such because there was a lack of a village, no?










It's true. It's not my inlaws responsibility.

But, it is my responsibility to only allow those who care and connect to my son to be a part of family life. If he's treated as less by someone, then it's my responsibility to disallow that. What mother would stand by while her child is treated as less? Not me.










It's done though. It's just people in your life. It's not fair. It's OK.

Your responsibility is to put together this village you crave. The IL thing is a non starter. Now what?


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
I'm also not really understanding that. I don't understand in general why you haven't just moved on and second/third the question about possible depression in you? I get this way when I am down. I pour my energy into things that have no real answer or consequence. It's avoidance for me. IDK if that rings a bell w/you.

Are you a parent? Are you a WOHM? Or a SAHM? Do you have support? No, it's no one else's responsibility. But to seek fairness and equal treatement when the family is going under seems reasonable to me. Who knows? Maybe they will change. Likely not, but you never know. I mean, maybe if they see he's latch key, maybe if they see the holes in the shoes, maybe if they see tapped resources and a very, very tired and stretched-too-thin-for-too-long household, they'll _get_ it. Or maybe not. We're out of sight, out of mind. They visit the other family more and so they understand more what they're going through and they know them better. We're out of sight. They don't know and they don't think about us. I want to put us _in sight_.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TCMoulton
It is not your in laws responsibility to make sure that your son is not a latch key kid.

True enough.

But probably all latch key kids are such because there was a lack of a village, no?

It's true. It's not my inlaws responsibility.

But, it is my responsibility to only allow those who care and connect to my son to be a part of family life. If he's treated as less by someone, then it's my responsibility to disallow that. What mother would stand by while her child is treated as less? Not me.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

I am a SAHM of two without family support.

Your IL's are never going to treat your the same. It's so trite but for whatever reason "they're not that into you". It's done.

Consider new solutions. New friends/support. New job opportunities. Whatever. You can make it work but you HAVE to move on. Again - any depression? Your anger is clouding your perspective, IMO.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
It's done though. It's just people in your life. It's not fair. It's OK.

Your responsibility is to put together this village you crave. The IL thing is a non starter. Now what?

Hmmm...what makes it done? What makes it final? They could have a light bulb moment. Maybe they'll look at a picture of DS at some moment and something will click. Or maybe not. I'm not a fool. I get that they probably won't change. But why give up entirely? Why take their first no for an answer? My son is young. He's not even 5. He's not even 2/3 of the way through childhood. What if I keep persisting or be clear they can't be involved unless they are really involved and they change when he's 7 or 10 or 12? That's still a good thing. I'd take that.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
I am a SAHM without family support.

Your IL's are never going to treat your the same. It's so trite but for whatever reason "they're not that into you". It's done.

Thanks for the post. I do appreciate it. I'm going to have to disagree with you that it's done though. I don't know that for sure and neither does anyone else, including my inlaws. Things change. People change. Time changes all things.

My son is young. We have a long way to go before 1) my son is grown and an adult and 2) my inlaws are too elderly to be active. There are many more years ahead. And they are ripe for change.

Now, as I said earlier, I'm not a naiive fool who thinks they'll definitely change...but I'd be doing my son a disservice if I didn't try and took their first no. I wouldn't be worth my salt as a mother if I don't fight the good fight for my kid.









And, no offense intended, and with all due respect, my life was quite a bit different and less intense when I was a SAHM for two years. I didn't need the help to the extent that I do now as a WOHM. That's just how it has been for me personally. My weekends are days where I am a SAHM and those are my days "off" which explain why I'm so darned burned out. WOH is a whole different ball of wax. Each comes with challenges and opportunities, but I managed without any help much better as a SAHM than I do now as a WOHM. Just my two cents and why I asked. Thanks.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
Hmmm...what makes it done? What makes it final? They could have a light bulb moment. Maybe they'll look at a picture of DS at some moment and something will click. Or maybe not. I'm not a fool. I get that they probably won't change. But why give up entirely? Why take their first no for an answer? My son is young. He's not even 5. He's not even 2/3 of the way through childhood. What if I keep persisting or be clear they can't be involved unless they are really involved and they change when he's 7 or 10 or 12? That's still a good thing. I'd take that.

Gently, this kind of persistence is unlikely going to result in increased visits. It'll make them feel nervous, pressured. They like to go to the pool and the big screened TV, right? Let them be. Maybe tomorrow or maybe 10 years from now your relationship with them will evolve to a point where they want to spend time with you. But for now they don't. Maybe they just click more with the other family. I agree with whoever said that their life is their own. If they want to vacation by the pool then that's it. Your job is to make your own life work.


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## confustication (Mar 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 

And, no offense intended, and with all due respect, my life was quite a bit different and less intense when I was a SAHM for two years. I didn't need the help to the extent that I do now as a WOHM. That's just how it has been for me personally. My weekends are days where I am a SAHM and those are my days "off" which explain why I'm so darned burned out. WOH is a whole different ball of wax. Each comes with challenges and opportunities, but I managed without any help much better as a SAHM than I do now as a WOHM. Just my two cents and why I asked. Thanks.

So, if you are unhappy and 'going under' because you are a WOHM, maybe it's time to revisit the SAHM idea? It may mean a lot of changes and restructuring your life to make it work, but maybe that is what you need to do, or maybe work part time?


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
WOH is a whole different ball of wax.

I have no doubt that being a WOHM is much more difficult than being a SAHM. It would be for me, too.

I hope you find peace with all of this.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
Gently, this kind of persistence is unlikely going to result in increased visits. It'll make them feel nervous, pressured. They like to go to the pool and the big screened TV, right? Let them be. Maybe tomorrow or maybe 10 years from now your relationship with them will evolve to a point where they want to spend time with you. But for now they don't. Maybe they just click more with the other family. I agree with whoever said that their life is their own. If they want to vacation by the pool then that's it. Your job is to make your own life work.

Thanks. Yes, it is.

But if I'd accepted every cruddy situation and moved on without solving it or giving it my best shot, I wouldn't be where I am today.

If I did that at work with difficult projects or something, I'd be let go eventually for ineffectiveness.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *confustication* 
So, if you are unhappy and 'going under' because you are a WOHM, maybe it's time to revisit the SAHM idea? It may mean a lot of changes and restructuring your life to make it work, but maybe that is what you need to do, or maybe work part time?

Well...I'm not working because it's fun and good for my health. I mean, yeah, yeah, I like my career and I like a lot of aspects of working, but, let's face it, with no support and with a young child, work is hell.

My husband never supported the idea of having either of us be a SAHP. The only reason I was for two years was because I saved up about $50k before having a baby to support myself so I could stay home while I breastfed and because I knew DH wasn't going to be much help, and even with that knowledge upfront, I was still shocked at how little he actually did support us.

DH would never, never, never be OK with a SAHP. And given the downfall of the marriage due to the long standing lack of support, I just wouldn't/couldn't/shouldn't give up my career, particularly in this economy.

But, yeah, being a SAHM would certainly simplify things tremendously. I am over my limit with out of state travel, meetings, covering all the sick days and appointments and field trips, and trying to work and take care of a child, and maintain a house. It's too much and not enough time. Like I said, I can't be a 100% mother even if I'm giving my career 80%. It just doesn't balance without some other inputs.


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## confustication (Mar 18, 2006)

It sounds like you have chosen a job that has a lot of demands in terms of out of state travel and a great deal of intensity. Maybe looking for a different position would be a consideration.

You *shouldn't* handle all the sick days etc.. if you are both working, he needs to manage some of those. If he is not willing to, and your distress is at a lack of support from HIM- looking for his parents to fill in the gaps isn't likely to help.

You need to figure out how to manage it yourself, and it sounds like finding some paid childcare and housekeeping would help. Your pain and frustration are very clear, and you owe it to yourself to find some support instead of simply wishing it were there.


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## ElliesMomma (Sep 21, 2006)

my parents favor one of my brothers and his wife because:
a) my brother is needy and my parents love to be needed;
b) his wife is from a culture that treats parents with the utmost respect, calls them Mr. FIRST NAME and Mrs. FIRST NAME; and my parents dig that.
they give them lots of extra money and time. i will admit that i do resent it a little from time to time.
but on the upside i know that we are making it on our own instead of being dependent upon anyone else, and when my parents do visit, it is only to visit, not to "help." those are good feelings.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
Turn it around:

Think of whatever help or assistance or support - whatever - you get from your children's grandparents - both sets or more than two sets.

Now subtract that from your life.

How does that feel? Is it OK? Doable? Acceptable? Would you be OK? Desperate? (I guess this would only apply to those of you with kids who are juggling two careers and raising children...having a SAHP would be a whole different ball of wax here...).

I think you are raising two different issues here with this comment. I can understand feeling angry and slighted that your child's grandparents don't spend time with him. I can understand feeling like you never do anything alone with your spouse or go to an appointment alone or what have you. I don't live near any family, and the one babysitter I had stopped babysitting for us a long time ago. My husband and I never go out alone. It is easier for me, being a SAHM, especially since I know that if I did manage to find a job, I would be the one still doing all the childcare and child activities and meal preparation and laundry and everything else. However it's not really about who has it harder, because someone is always way worse off than you are. The real situation is how your husband's parents treat him, your child and you; and can you change that.

When it comes to the situation where you say you want your inlaws to help more because you need the help in a way that some people don't, it comes off more like you are entitled to this help and should be able to expect it--not saying that you feel this way, it just reads that way. I think in our society we have a expectation of what reasonable grandparenting is, and if our parents or inlaws are in the position to provide it and don't want to, it's hurtful. When we see the grandparents helping out the other part of the family, but not your family, it's crazymaking. I'd feel rejected, like there was something wrong with me and my child. Unfortunately, not everyone is going to get the kind of help from their children's grandparents for one reason or another, and it sounds like you are in that group.

Is it possible that you or your husbnd can write a heartfelt letter, asking if there is a way for you to help foster a closer relationship between them and your child? Putting aside any thought of how they could help you, just approach it from the point of view that you like them and would like to visit with them more and have your child see them more. Do you know how their other son and DIL feel about it all? Does your husband talk to his brother much about it? Maybe they could ask questions about their nephew and talk about your more with the grandparents. I'd probably do that before I gave up completely, just because if you pull away and cut off contact, they will undoubtedly just figure you are doing what you want to do. At least if you can clear the air on this topic and get some sort of answer, it might at least help you put your mind at ease--not that you will necessarily ever get a straight answer, I think that's always chancy.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *confustication* 
It sounds like you have chosen a job that has a lot of demands in terms of out of state travel and a great deal of intensity. Maybe looking for a different position would be a consideration.

You *shouldn't* handle all the sick days etc.. if you are both working, he needs to manage some of those. If he is not willing to, and your distress is at a lack of support from HIM- looking for his parents to fill in the gaps isn't likely to help.

You need to figure out how to manage it yourself, and it sounds like finding some paid childcare and housekeeping would help. Your pain and frustration are very clear, and you owe it to yourself to find some support instead of simply wishing it were there.

You hit the nail on the head. I've got paid childcare (daycare) but it's only during daycare hours. I often have to travel out of state, and I have a lot of meetings that run into non-daycare hours. With DH getting only two weeks of paid leave, and having no flexibility, it makes it very complicated to cover things.

Two weeks is nothing! I'm sorry. It's just not!

DH refuses to hire housekeeping. He would never allow that. It's been discussed. It's not really in the budget anyway, but even if it were, DH would never go for it. He's made that clear.

I did start buying more child care last spring when things got really out of control. And then DH started complaining about the price of daycare and made me prove to him that we really needed to spend that much and also made me give him the figures again about the cheaper places in town and how little it would save us by changing daycares.

Our daycare will be ending soon and I've put DH in charge of finding new daycare and thus far he's refused and said he can't handle that, but I'm starting to delegate more things to him and that's one of them. Sometimes it seems like I have to go to those lengths.

Yes, the out of state travel is really a big problem. It's hard. But I'm probably not going to find a job in my field that wouldn't require travel and meetings. It's sort of inherent in the field. Maybe it would be less. On the flip side, I get really good benefits and flexibility so there are trade offs. I just need more help to handle the intense parts of the job.







DH is not much of a support system and never has been.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viola* 
it comes off more like you are entitled to this help and should be able to expect it--not saying that you feel this way, it just reads that way.

I don't feel _I_ am entitled to anything from my inlaws. I do feel they have an obligation to be fair to their minor grandchild.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viola* 
I can understand feeling like you never do anything alone with your spouse or go to an appointment alone or what have you. I don't live near any family, and the one babysitter I had stopped babysitting for us a long time ago.

Thanks. It's not about getting alone time with DH though. I don't give two hoots about that at this point.







That is so, so unimportant. I wouldn't expect my inlaws to accommodate that.

I am having real trouble with out of state travel for work and daycare. Daycare and meetings don't line up. I also have trouble taking time off from work for dr appointments for my child, sick days for my child, field trips, school events, and school breaks and in-services. I have done nearly all of these myself for over two years. It makes me look like a less than great employee, it makes me fall behind at work, and I'm just running here and there, back and forth. It's too much. That's what I need help with.

For what it's worth, I really didn't need as much help when I was a SAHM for two years, which was good because I didn't get that much help. But I wasn't nearly as tired or desperate as I am now.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viola* 
especially since I know that if I did manage to find a job, I would be the one still doing all the childcare and child activities and meal preparation and laundry and everything else.

Thanks! This IS my life. I am doing all this. It sucks. And I need some help. I can't do my job and all the out of state travel and meetings and meet my employers needs AND be a good mom. Just can't.

Right now, I'm a pretty good mom and a not-so-great employee. And I'm a piss poor home manager.







I can't give more. The laundry and the dishes and the cleaning goes first. Then I drop the ball at work. And I try to keep the parenting ball spinning, but that slows down and wavers time to time too.


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

Since your relationship with your DH sounds like it is poor (from what you've said in this thread), that fact alone could be influencing their visits. It would be hard to see your child in a loveless marriage. It is hard to be around people who are not getting along/who are tense with one another. It isn't a nice relaxing vacation, it is stressful.

About your situation - it does suck and you do need help. I suggested some sources of childcare earlier in the thread. That is what you need. You also need to let go of any expectations of the grandparents.

No, you have no right to expect anything for your son from them. They can be jerkweeds to him if they want. It isn't fair or good, but it isn't your choice. It is theirs and they will live with their decisions.

Persisting with them and asking for more for years in hopes that they will come around is really not a good tactic. They may well come around when he is 7 or 12, but it isn't going to be from you hounding them. Reminding and cajoling and expecting will only build resentment, not relationship.

I agree with a PP who said you should cut yourself off from this information that is bothering you. Don't talk to them about it. Don't talk to BIL and SIL about it. Move the conversation on whenenver it comes up. Be kind and loving towards them in the time you have with them and let them live their lives. They may make choices you wouldn't make - they may even be BAD choices - but they are THEIR choices to make. You can only control how you let them into your life and how you react to them.

Tjej


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 

Grandparents are under no obligation to treat them fairly? Even when there are only 5 total and all around the same age?

No. Grandparents have absolutely no obligation to their grandchildren whatsoever. No obligation to your concept of "fairness". None.

That established, you need to move on. You are doing no favors to your child or your own mental health.


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## zebra15 (Oct 2, 2009)

I read the responses and let me just say they are your INLAWS. The situation needs to be your DH's to handle. If the inlaws do not want to visit then it needs to be DH to convince them to come. The entire situation sounds like the inlaws dont want to come and DS really doesn't want them here (or doesn't care).
Its not the grandparents job to be 'fair'. While it would be nice, its not reality. I have the only grandchild and my parents do nothing for him. Trust me my parents have $$ and they choose to send it to my sister who is a SVP in a bank.
If you think you need money and need to ask the inlaws that would be call for DH to make, not you. Even if I was married I cant imagine making that call.

I also agree that you need to expand your circle of daycare providers. There are plenty of moms willing to watch little ones for extra $.

It just sounds like DH needs to pick up his 1/2 of the duties at home, with the child and at work. If you have a meeting there shoudl be no reason he cant get to the sitters.
If DH doesnt want to hire a housekeeping service then he needs to contribute to cleaning the house.

Not that your DH would go for it but have you explored the option of therapy, either couples or individual?

Also just let the idea of the inlaws comings... let it go.... They are not coming, they are not sending $$, holidays, b'days are going to be unfair. And you know what... thats ok. That is your Inlaws decision, they get to choose where and when to spend $. You dont have to agree with it. But please stop trying to change it.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
I don't feel _I_ am entitled to anything from my inlaws. I do feel they have an obligation to be fair to their minor grandchild.


Honestly, while it is a wonderful thought, they really owe your son nothing. While they will hopefully look abck one day and realize what they have missed, there is also a very good chance that they won't

My in laws have 4 grandaughters two of which are my kids. For the vast majority of my girl's lives they have lived a minimum of 5 hours away from us but have just recently purchased a house in our area and are gradually moving here. Over the past decade and a half they have been there for most of the major milestones of my niece's lives; concerts, recitals, athletic games, graduation, in fact very recently they drove over 6 hours at the last minute to see a play that my nieces were in - the week before they declined an invite to see my girls compete in their first gymnastics exibition when they were just a 30 minute drive away. Did it hurt my feelings, make me mad that they chose not to come and share a special day with my girls - absolutely. Was I even madder when I found out about the special trip for my nieces, heck yes. I can clearly see that they favor SIL's kids, and I am sure that my hubby can see that too, but honestly, I know that I cannot do anything to make them change. My daughters are starting to voice their disinterest in visiting them, and it breaks my heart to think about how this hurts my hubby, so I encourage the visits with a smile and a bunch of fun things in my bag to keep the visit fun. In time I'm sure that they will begin to see the inequality in their relationship in comparison to their cousins but I want the decision to be theirs completely, not one influenced by my hurt and disappointment. Until then I will encourage family visits but certainly will avoid leaving them alone unless I am more certain that they will treat my kids with the same love and kindness they show their other grandaughters.
You can't change people. make them feel things that they don't. If I were in your shoes I would encourage your son to enjoy their visits but I certainly would not continue to push for them to have a greater presence in his life against their own wishes. It's just not worth the cost of a sitter for less than a dozen days throughout the year.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

In light of what you've said about your situation in general, i am kind of thinking you should cut your IL's AND THEIR SON out of your immediate situation. Your IL's are not causing this problem, your DH's rigidity and selfishness are. It's not their job to pick up the slack their son is pouring out in your direction. I feel for you, i do, i left a similar situation once and it was frightening, lonely and hard HARD work. Looking back it was also the best possible thing i could have done. The situation i was in was not working, had not ever worked well and was never going to work. I left XP over 4 years ago and very little has changed for him, whereas EVERYTHING has changed for me. Can you look at your life and say honestly that a little more help would fix everything? Your relationship with DH seems to be at the root of so many of your problems and sadnesses, why do you stay? Ultimately this is your life, the only one who can fix this is you.


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## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
In light of what you've said about your situation in general, i am kind of thinking you should cut your IL's AND THEIR SON out of your immediate situation. Your IL's are not causing this problem, your DH's rigidity and selfishness are. It's not their job to pick up the slack their son is pouring out in your direction. *I feel for you, i do, i left a similar situation once and it was frightening, lonely and hard HARD work. Looking back it was also the best possible thing i could have done. The situation i was in was not working, had not ever worked well and was never going to work. I left XP over 4 years ago and very little has changed for him, whereas EVERYTHING has changed for me.* Can you look at your life and say honestly that a little more help would fix everything? Your relationship with DH seems to be at the root of so many of your problems and sadnesses, why do you stay? Ultimately this is your life, the only one who can fix this is you.

This. Bolding mine. BTDT. So true. You can't change your ILs. You can't even change your DH. But you can change yourself. You have to do it though. It is NOT easy, not in the very short term. But in the long term, and even in the not so distance future, the rewards can be immense. Everything can change. You get rid of the junk, and then 98% of the changes are good, great or profound. It isn't just the obvious things that change either. In the long run, a lot of your core being can slowly change to be much more positive - self confidence, self worth.... BTDT.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tjej* 
Since your relationship with your DH sounds like it is poor (from what you've said in this thread), that fact alone could be influencing their visits.

That's true.

But, for what it's worth, their unfairness predates the marriage woes by years and years.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks everyone.


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## HappyMommy2 (Jan 27, 2007)

It seems to me like your hubby should have no say in whether or not you get a housekeeper. You WOH. He isn't picking up his share. When both parents WOH, some things need to be outsourced. That is just how it is.

Why don't you push that further with him, put your foot down? Or just hire a house cleaner anyway, with or without his knowledge or consent? Hire them once every 2 weeks. It will be a huge weight off of your shoulders. Working mamas should be proud completing food/dishes/laundry ... forget about cleaning toilets!!


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HappyMommy2* 
Or just hire a house cleaner anyway, with or without his knowledge or consent? Hire them once every 2 weeks. It will be a huge weight off of your shoulders. Working mamas should be proud completing food/dishes/laundry ... forget about cleaning toilets!!











That is a topic for a whole other thread! Just kidding. I really struggle with doing things openly, not doing things behind DH's back, which trust me, would make things sooooo much easier. I mean, he doesn't notice anything!! It would be so easy to hid things if I wanted to. I mean, I haven't even canceled cable which makes sense to do, right?, and if I were on my own I would have already and I HATE paying for it...what a waste and an easy thing to cut.

But DH is AGAINST going without cable. He has forbidden me from canceling. Just as he's AGAINST hiring any sort of housekeeping ever. He was against hiring a doula. He's against me buying clothes for work. He's really stingy with money, always has been.

When money gets tight, and I start talking about canceling cable, he always says something like "do we need to spend so much on groceries? Cut back on that? or "Isn't there a cheaper daycare?"

Yeah. Sometimes I just can't believe what comes out of his mouth. He's so unreasonable to me. If I call him on it, he'll just twist what he said to make it sound like he didn't say what he just said and that he really meant something else and that I put him on the spot and he said it because he hadn't really thought it through. Rinse and repeat. The man has issues with communication. Obviously.







I really think he might have high functioning Asperger's.







Or linear thinking, insensitive ass engineer symptom. I'm not sure. But there is something about his brain that is different than mine in how we connect emotionally and interpret the world and people.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

OK really, mama? Your married to a man who would sacrafice your childs care while your at work (because your not allowed to stay home)and his HEALTH so he can watch football (in a nutshell). And it surprises you that his parents are the way they are? He had to have gotten it from somewhere.

Seriously mama. You are a smart woman who has gotten through her entire life with a major fight. Arent you tired of FIGHTING?!?!?! Don't you want a break from analyzing why these people are the way they are? I mean all you ever post is questions if anyone else is going through things your awful husband and his awful parents are putting you and your son through. But I never read a post from you ranting about how unfair it is that youve had to take care of your ENTIRE FAMILY your ENTIRE LIFE. Which to me means you have excepted the way they are. Can't you do the same with your husband and inlaws and MOVE ON? You are wasting all this energy on people who do not deserve it.

And FWIW, I spend alot of time over in Single parenting myself, and there are oodles of mamas over there doing this with NO VILLAGE. is it ideal, heck no! But its being done. Is it fair? No way. But wasting time coming up with reasons why things CANT be done is not going to get anything done. Its like constantly putting quarters in the merry go round. Its getting you NO WHERE.

Please understand I say all this with a big heart and and even bigger desire to see you get all the support, help and LOVE you so desperatly deserve. I am angry for you every day and wish your Husband could get his head out of his rear end and realize how ridiculous hes being about simple basic LIFE SITUATIONS. He should be helping with laundry, light cleaning around the house, childcare, light cooking. I bet you 800,000 dollars that if you and your husband worked even remotley as a team unit, you wouldnt give a hoot what your inlaws did. But your grasping at straws I think. It stinks and its not fair. But I honestly trully think you need to focus on moving on from it all.

You said you have about a year left. Try to focus all your energy on getting through this next year. Forget your inlaws and their lack of interest. Its not going to change. They are selfish toxic people anyway, and speaking from experience, your son will NOT notice their lack of committment to him. I promise. I didnt really have a relationship with any of my grandparents. I did, and do, however, have an AMAZING relationship with my parents. THAT is the relationship that matters. Everything else is either fluff or a nice bonus.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
Unless I get some help, either the parenting or the career is going to suffer. I can't do it all on my own, at least not at this age and with these special needs. Just can't.

I'm really sorry, but I think you're just going to have to look for help elsewhere. Your ILs are not going to come through for you.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
DH refuses to hire housekeeping. He would never allow that. It's been discussed. It's not really in the budget anyway, but even if it were, DH would never go for it. He's made that clear.

I think you just tell him you are.

Honestly - I do think he has a right to the cable (as long as you guys can eat, etc.) because even if you don't agree with it, it's his thing. But by extension, you are allowed your things. Is it fair your "thing" right now is household help? No not really. But I would put it like this:

"I don't agree that you need cable, but you're an adult. I need help with the house. I'm hiring help on a trial basis. We can talk about it again in two months."

Honestly at this point it sounds like it's a mental health issue. It may not be worth the investment forever but I think it might be worth it right now. Or even one good deep clean. I don't have a cleaner now but I did hire one when I went back to work FT to help us make the transition and it did wonders for my focus. I don't know how expensive it is where you are but for us it was $200 for the initial deep clean and $80 a cleaning after that (I scheduled them once every three weeks, for about 5 months). My understanding is that is high for most areas of the US but I really have no idea.

And yes, likely there will be grumpy. I am about to do this with this TREE in my YARD my husband took down. He honestly believes he is going to get around to cutting it up, but it's been 6 weeks. It's about to be outsourced. And yes, that will mean giving up something else in the budget, but this is the way life goes sometimes - time is money and all that.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Barbie64g* 
I mean all you ever post is questions if anyone else is going through things your awful husband and his awful parents are putting you and your son through. But I never read a post from you ranting about how unfair it is that youve had to take care of your ENTIRE FAMILY your ENTIRE LIFE. Which to me means you have excepted the way they are. Can't you do the same with your husband and inlaws and MOVE ON? You are wasting all this energy on people who do not deserve it.

That was then this is now? That was circumstances out of most of our control? This is their choice?

My inlaws have the means. They have the means. They are a resource, if they make different choices.









I honestly spend a fraction talking about this: here, to them, to DH.

I mean, most of the time I'm at work or driving to pick up or drop off at daycare. Add in time to get ready for work, sleep, and eat and maybe a phone call or get together with a friend, and there is 99% of my time.

I mean this past weekend, I did some work from home on a project, cleaned, did laundry, took my kid to a cheap matinee at the budget theater, took my kid to a park, met a friend (twice), and cleaned, cleaned, cleaned, sorted laundry and threw in loads.

I don't spend a lot of time worrying about my inlaws. Really, it's just post-travel for work and post-meetings for work when I get a lifted eyebrow for having to take vacation pre- and post-travel to prepare my household and recuperate.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
Can you look at your life and say honestly that a little more help would fix everything? Your relationship with DH seems to be at the root of so many of your problems and sadnesses, why do you stay? Ultimately this is your life, the only one who can fix this is you.

Yes.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I think you just tell him you are.

Honestly - I do think he has a right to the cable (as long as you guys can eat, etc.) because even if you don't agree with it, it's his thing. But by extension, you are allowed your things. Is it fair your "thing" right now is household help? No not really.











You're right. And DH would love you for this! But you're right. Cable is indeed his thing. Even a therapist of mine made the comment that tv and video games help DH process the world. It's how he connects.

It makes sense. I mean, he places so much importance on it.

Your other point made me laugh, albeit sardonically. It's true. My "thing" in the marriage is always something that is really for the household.

I mean, my thing isn't really getting a housecleaner. That should be joint, right? I mean, I wish "my" thing to DH's cable thing could be traveling or a massage for the stress or giving money to my dad or whatever - something for me like cable is for DH.

But my "things" in the marriage have always been household things. Things we all can use. It's because DH doesn't see the household needs as his needs. This pre-dates having a baby. I spend my money and time on things for us. He spends his money and time on things for him.

In every place we've ever lived, DH has had a separate room for his man cave. At the expense of a home office, a playroom, storage, a guest room, a library...

The extra space we have has always been DH's. If I wanted space, we'd need a bigger house or apartment.

DH has a lap top. I really could use a lap top for work, but DH has one and I don't. DH has a desk for work in his man cave. I am the one who works from home about half the time and yet I don't even have a desk. DH has an iPod. I'd love an iPod to listen to music...I just can't justify the expense.

DH will tell you that I spend money on clothes for work. That's something I do for myself in his book.

(DH's mom still buys him clothes, not all that often anymore, but nearly everything in DH's wardrobe is from his mother. He doesn't own that much. His clothes have all come from her birthday or Christmas presents to him.)

But he'll say things like well, I didn't spend any money on clothes and you did, so I can have my man cave things like an x-box and games and a flat screen.

My SIL says I should just join a health club, quit my job to be a SAHM, hire a housekeeper, and take my kid on a nice trip to Europe. She knows what it's like being married to DH. He's cheap and self-involved and doesn't even realize it. Her husband is sort of the same way, but makes more money, and they're more comfortable with debt, probably because he makes more money. He's not as bad as my DH with the yelling, etc, and he's been more successful and willing to be a provider, but he's a man cave sort of guy too.

MIL didn't make her boys do anything growing up, including clean their rooms. I think perhaps that had an impact. But I really don't know. It could be a fluke, too, and DH and his brother could be perfectly acceptable mates to other types of women.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

It's not clear to me why you remain in this marriage?


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
It's not clear to me why you remain in this marriage?

Oh.

Sigh.

Inertia? I've been married more than 10 years.

I set up my career (pre-and-post child) to balance it with his. We married out of college. DH graduated first and got a job in a city that didn't really work for either of our careers. I followed him because that's where he was and I thought we could set goals to go somewhere else once he got experience. I got a job in my field in that city and made the best of it, got experience, and have been balancing my career with his ever since. Someone made a point earlier about dual-career couples not being able to take the best advantages they could if there was just one career. That's how my career is right now.

No where else to go? One of my parents is homeless. The other close to. I don't have a network and there is no safety net.

The housing market. Our house has depreciated and sales in the area are slow and stagnate. We no longer have any equity in our home, despite a decent (saved) downpayment. I need to wait for the house to sell. It's been on the market and expired a couple of times.

Joined assets. Drained savings.

My son is still young. Once he's in school, my money will go further with little to no daycare costs.

The cost of daycare.

DH would fight me for custody. I don't really want to have DH have joint custody that I can't oversee. Lack of trust.

Waiting for the economy to improve...waiting for my child to get just a little older...that pretty much sums it up.

It used to be hope that DH would improve and a hope that I could salvage things. And a hope that we could stay together for the commitment of marriage and the stability of our child's childhood. But I don't believe those things too much at this point. It's mainly the housing market and my son's age that is keeping me here for the immediate future.


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## mtm (Dec 4, 2003)

I don't think anything will change until you change it. Your dh won't change, your ils won't change. You have to change or accept things. You make decent money, move out, rent an apt, start over. Can you really live like this until your son is in school? What if the house still doesn't sell?


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## Caneel (Jun 13, 2007)

Having worked in the real estate industry as well as in banking, I think this is a fantastic podcast - http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2010/...y_or_stay.html

TIN - it may be of interest to you.

The attorney (a woman) explains the economics behind walking away from a mortgage, especially a mortgage with no equity, and why it can often be the best financial move to make. You would need to listen to the whole thing but she talks about the timing between default and eviction, cost savings, the impact on credit (not really that big of a deal) and such.

One of the things she addresses is seperating the emotional connection (guilt, shame, etc.) and viewing it as a purely business decision.

Another thing I found interesting is her client base has shifted from people who simply made totally bad purchases ($0 equity, no-doc loans, etc) to regular, working couples whose houses dropped so much in value, they can't get out from under the loans.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Dear This is Nice,

After reading EVERYTHING that is going on with you all i feel like doing is coming over to give you a big







and having tea with you.

I understand better what you are going through.

I am not sure if you said this or i read in another thread, but isnt your dh austictic or has aspbergers(sp?) syndrome?

if i lived closer a few friends and i would come over and help you clean.

i am so so so sad you have to deal with everything you are dealing with now. its almost like you ARE living the life of a single mom - kinda with two kids.

i wish you had friends who would do sleepovers with your child so you dont have to worry about overnights when you are away. i forget though how old your son is. 3? 4?

it sounds like you feel stuck, stuck, stuck and i dont blame you for that. dh not helping you - in fact being a hindrance is even worse than being a single mom.

how are you even going to find a support system if you get no time to yourself.

i feel so much frustration and kinda defeat (not the right word but more of a long drawn out waiting) pouring out of you. like a deep sigh of when is something going to change.

you have soooo much on your plate. i hope you are eating well and taking care of yourself. and within your circumstances treating yourself sometimes - whatever that may look like. getting some food for your soul.

gosh if you were depressed no WONDER!!!!! not saying you are, but more how can you put up with so much and not be depressed.






















a lot of strength and love to you as you try to find a way mama.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Caneel* 
Having worked in the real estate industry as well as in banking, I think this is a fantastic podcast - http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2010/...y_or_stay.html

TIN - it may be of interest to you.

The attorney (a woman) explains the economics behind walking away from a mortgage, especially a mortgage with no equity, and why it can often be the best financial move to make. You would need to listen to the whole thing but she talks about the timing between default and eviction, cost savings, the impact on credit (not really that big of a deal) and such.

One of the things she addresses is seperating the emotional connection (guilt, shame, etc.) and viewing it as a purely business decision.

Another thing I found interesting is her client base has shifted from people who simply made totally bad purchases ($0 equity, no-doc loans, etc) to regular, working couples whose houses dropped so much in value, they can't get out from under the loans.

Awesome. Thanks. Sounds like very useful information. I will listen to this. Thanks for thinking of me!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
Dear This is Nice,

After reading EVERYTHING that is going on with you all i feel like doing is coming over to give you a big







and having tea with you.

I understand better what you are going through.

I am not sure if you said this or i read in another thread, but isnt your dh austictic or has aspbergers(sp?) syndrome?

if i lived closer a few friends and i would come over and help you clean.

i am so so so sad you have to deal with everything you are dealing with now. its almost like you ARE living the life of a single mom - kinda with two kids.

i wish you had friends who would do sleepovers with your child so you dont have to worry about overnights when you are away. i forget though how old your son is. 3? 4?

it sounds like you feel stuck, stuck, stuck and i dont blame you for that. dh not helping you - in fact being a hindrance is even worse than being a single mom.

how are you even going to find a support system if you get no time to yourself.

i feel so much frustration and kinda defeat (not the right word but more of a long drawn out waiting) pouring out of you. like a deep sigh of when is something going to change.

you have soooo much on your plate. i hope you are eating well and taking care of yourself. and within your circumstances treating yourself sometimes - whatever that may look like. getting some food for your soul.

gosh if you were depressed no WONDER!!!!! not saying you are, but more how can you put up with so much and not be depressed.






















a lot of strength and love to you as you try to find a way mama.

Thanks so much! That's so heartwarming. Don't worry - I do have two girlfriends in real life who want to seriously kick my husband's butt, and they are really nice to me and listen.









Thanks again for your kind words.

And now I need to log out for a while and get a project done at work.









Thanks all.


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## Artichokie (Jun 19, 2007)

With respect to extended family, I've learned to accept what a person can offer in a relationship, and not expect anything additional. They owe me and mine nothing.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

Just finished the whole thread. Sounds, to this "outsider", that root of most of your issues is your DH. I think you're willing to fight for your family - but you've picked the wrong direction in which to focus your energies. DH is the one at the root of most of these issues - he's not letting you get help when the family needs it (putting his wants first.) You sound really overwhelmed and frustrated but I think that your "help" needs to come from him. HE is obligated to step up first. It would be great to have most assistance from your ILs, but it's not their job. If the mama is sinking and there's a partner there - THEY need to be the one to help. He's not - and - unfortunately - it's not up to his parents to pick up the slack.

I'm saying in essence, that you need to refocus your energies on the partnership and what sounds like a breakdown there (if you want.) Your DH's parents shouldn't have to step in to pick up the slack where their adult son isn't pulling his weight.

I understand that you want them involved in your DC's life - of course you do - but as this thread got more into the situation - it started to feel like (to me) that you're (rightfully) frustrated with him and sending the anger their way because you feel like you're at a dead end with your DH.

I hope you find some help and peace. I would be overwhelmed and pissed off too. Hang in there, you have a lot on your plate.


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## rhiandmoi (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
I mean, my thing isn't really getting a housecleaner. That should be joint, right? I mean, I wish "my" thing to DH's cable thing could be traveling or a massage for the stress or giving money to my dad or whatever - something for me like cable is for DH.

But my "things" in the marriage have always been household things. Things we all can use. It's because DH doesn't see the household needs as his needs. This pre-dates having a baby. I spend my money and time on things for us. He spends his money and time on things for him.

In every place we've ever lived, DH has had a separate room for his man cave. At the expense of a home office, a playroom, storage, a guest room, a library...

The extra space we have has always been DH's. If I wanted space, we'd need a bigger house or apartment.

This is just your DH enforcing his own boundaries, wants, and needs better than you enforce your own. My advice - Keep the house slightly cleaner than Health Department Violation and get your own thing. Unless having a tidy house actually is your thing, then own it. Don't try to guilt your DH into caring about your thing.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rhiandmoi* 
This is just your DH enforcing his own boundaries, wants, and needs better than you enforce your own. My advice - Keep the house slightly cleaner than Health Department Violation and get your own thing. Unless having a tidy house actually is your thing, then own it. Don't try to guilt your DH into caring about your thing.











No, no, it's not trying to guilt him.

I want him to take some ownership, some stake in the community that is our family.

He doesn't do that on any level.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 









No, no, it's not trying to guilt him.

I want him to take some ownership, some stake in the community that is our family.

He doesn't do that on any level.

You pretty much said above that you are waiting it out so you can leave. I don't understand, then why you are engaging in all this nonsense (IL drama, expecting your DH to change). This is the time to start building your new life.

You say you've given up on him changing. So GIVE UP. It's done.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

but she has also said she wants to wait for her son to be a little older. she will leave seh said. when the time is right.

or i say when enough is enough and she cant take it anymore.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
but she has also said she wants to wait for her son to be a little older. she will leave seh said. when the time is right.

or i say when enough is enough and she cant take it anymore.

Thank you. Yes.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
Can I ask what your problem is? Your posts seem so dismissive and condescending. Maybe you don't mean to be, but it sort of seems like you do. I hope that isn't the case. Because I'm really struggling and I was looking sincerely for help. I could be misreading. Emotion, intent, and sentiment don't always translate in words. I guess I didn't like the words "nonsense" and "drama." They have certain connotations

I feel frustrated. I read this thread and then go back and read past threads and I just don't get it. I feel like you are diverting an insane amount of energy into things that you've already written off or should be written off.

You say you're looking for help but it doesn't read that way. It reads like you are arguing yourself in place.


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## zeldamomma (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
Can I ask what your problem is? Your posts seem so dismissive and condescending. Maybe you don't mean to be, but it sort of seems like you do. I hope that isn't the case. Because I'm really struggling and I was looking sincerely for help. I could be misreading. Emotion, intent, and sentiment don't always translate in words. I guess I didn't like the words "nonsense" and "drama." They have certain connotations.

Thanks for taking the time to write and respond previously. I do appreciate that.

I'm not the one you wrote this to, but from what I can see, you don't seem ready to accept help. Every time someone suggests something that you could do to improve your situation, you ignore it, or dismiss the suggestion as impossible out of hand. That's not what people do when they're looking for solutions.

Have you considered talking about this to a counselor or clergy-person? They might be able to help you work through your emotions and get to the point where you can put your energy elsewhere (like figuring out how to get out of your marriage). I understand that you don't feel you have much time for yourself, but your son needs you to take care of yourself.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
I feel frustrated. I read this thread and then go back and read past threads and I just don't get it. I feel like you are diverting an insane amount of energy into things that you've already written off or should be written off.

You say you're looking for help but it doesn't read that way. It reads like you are arguing yourself in place.

Hey could you delete this, maybe? I think what I posted, and you quoted, violated MDC rules, and my post was deleted and I was alerted by a moderator to delete it.

My apologies.

I am going to leave this thread. Thanks.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zeldamomma* 
I'm not the one you wrote this to, but from what I can see, you don't seem ready to accept help. Every time someone suggests something that you could do to improve your situation, you ignore it, or dismiss the suggestion as impossible out of hand. That's not what people do when they're looking for solutions.

Have you considered talking about this to a counselor or clergy-person? They might be able to help you work through your emotions and get to the point where you can put your energy elsewhere (like figuring out how to get out of your marriage). I understand that you don't feel you have much time for yourself, but your son needs you to take care of yourself.

Depends on the forum, I guess, what my response has been. I've taken some advice.

But the advice here has been "revisit being a SAHM" and "leave your husband" or "have your husband help more."

It's not quite that simple. I wish it were. It would be solved by now.

Thanks for the thoughts, though.


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## bits and bobs (Apr 7, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
I don't feel _I_ am entitled to anything from my inlaws. *I do feel they have an obligation to be fair to their minor grandchild*.

No, you are wrong.

You might wish them to be fair, but it isn't happening and under no circumstances should it be an obligation.

Why are you refusing to see this?


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bits and bobs* 
No, you are wrong.

You might wish them to be fair, but it isn't happening and under no circumstances should it be an obligation.

Why are you refusing to see this?

Why do you think I am wrong? How can grandparents justify treating one child unfairly?

If it's not wrong, then it's justifiable.

If they want to see him, as they have said they do, then why are they under no obligation to be fair?

Fair doesn't equal the same. Fair is fair.

Does anyone have an obligation to be fair to another person? Does one spouse have an obligation to be fair to the other spouse? Or not? Does a parent have an obligation to be fair to children? Or not? Is there any obligation of fairness in any relationship?

Right or wrong, people can take many actions. They can be unfair. But that doesn't make it right. Or make them unobligated.

So, does anyone have an obligation to anyone else to be fair?


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
Why do you think I am wrong? How can grandparents justify treating one child unfairly?

If it's not wrong, then it's justifiable.

If they want to see him, as they have said they do, then why are they under no obligation to be fair?

Fair doesn't equal the same. Fair is fair.

Does anyone have an obligation to be fair to another person? Does one spouse have an obligation to be fair to the other spouse? Or not? Does a parent have an obligation to be fair to children? Or not? Is there any obligation of fairness in any relationship?

Right or wrong, people can take many actions. They can be unfair. But that doesn't make it right. Or make them unobligated.

So, does anyone have an obligation to anyone else to be fair?

Maybe we have different definitions or at least different connotations to the word obligation. To me, it denotes some sort of contractual responsibility. And the bottom line is-- and I say this as gently as I possibly can-- your in-laws have no responsibility to your family beyond what they choose to give. Your child is your responsibility and no one else's, and if your current situation isn't working for your family, it's no one's obligation but you and your husband's to find a way to make things work. If you want us to say how they're acting sucks, I think most of us would agree with you. But I can't get behind saying they're obligated to do what you want. They owe you nothing. They owe their grandchild nothing. And frankly-- and again I say this gently-- I suspect the more you push and the more you demand, the more they're going to run away. Heck, I sympathize with you and I'm a little turned off by this idea that one human being can be "obligated" to give material things and financial aid to another. If I felt someone was constantly keeping score on what I did and pushing me to give more, it would make me more likely to go running in the opposite direction.

Spouses are obligated because they take vows and because they are in a contractual, legal relationship. Ditto for parents to children. But your in-laws do not owe you anything that they do not choose to freely give. It may suck, but it's just the way it is.


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## lafemmedesfemmes (Nov 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
Why do you think I am wrong? How can grandparents justify treating one child unfairly?

If it's not wrong, then it's justifiable.

If they want to see him, as they have said they do, then why are they under no obligation to be fair?

Fair doesn't equal the same. Fair is fair.

Does anyone have an obligation to be fair to another person? Does one spouse have an obligation to be fair to the other spouse? Or not? Does a parent have an obligation to be fair to children? Or not? Is there any obligation of fairness in any relationship?

Right or wrong, people can take many actions. They can be unfair. But that doesn't make it right. Or make them unobligated.

So, does anyone have an obligation to anyone else to be fair?

in a word, no.

there is an _expectation_ of fairness in any relationship, but that expectation does not oblige anyone to act in any particular way, unless that person promised to do so (like in one's marriage vows), or one has a legal obligation to do so.

i think that's why most of us who have responded to you on this thread do have sympathy for you up to a certain point. we all as parents (certain situations excepted, of course) expect a certain amount of fairness in the relationships between our parents and our children. but that doesn't mean our parents are _obliged_ to act a certain way, just because we want it that way. most of the time, mismatched expectations can be cleared away with sincere and honest discussion, but if it doesn't work out no one is _obliged_ to maintain that relationship. in fact, there is an expectation that if a relationship isn't working, despite the best efforts of all parties involved, that the relationship will end.

i think you are placing too much weight on your expectation of fairness, and creating an obligation where most people would not.

christina


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## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
*Gently, this kind of persistence is unlikely going to result in increased visits. It'll make them feel nervous, pressured.* They like to go to the pool and the big screened TV, right? Let them be. Maybe tomorrow or maybe 10 years from now your relationship with them will evolve to a point where they want to spend time with you. But for now they don't. *Maybe they just click more with the other family. I agree with whoever said that their life is their own. If they want to vacation by the pool then that's it. Your job is to make your own life work.*

Your negative feelings towards your ils and your dh are so apparent in your posts that they surely are felt by your ils. I am pretty sure you will disagree but your ils likely don't feel comfortable around you or in your home which is why they don't spend much time with your ds.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
Thanks. Yes, it is.

But if I'd accepted every cruddy situation and moved on without solving it or giving it my best shot, I wouldn't be where I am today.

If I did that at work with difficult projects or something, I'd be let go eventually for ineffectiveness.

But you aren't handling this situation, your are complaining about it and laying expectations on your in-laws that are never going to happen. You are asking them, not directly, for financial help with your ds, so your aren't handling it, you are saying you need more child care, so no, you are not solving it.

Your assertion that most single moms receive assistance, live with their parents, or have a lot of support is just rubbish. You have no clue what you are talking about. "most single moms" would not have the expectation that someone else would foot the bill for their child's shoes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
Thanks! This IS my life. I am doing all this. It sucks. *And I need some help. I can't do my job and all the out of state travel and meetings and meet my employers needs AND be a good mom. Just can't.*

Right now, I'm a pretty good mom and a not-so-great employee. And I'm a piss poor home manager.







I can't give more. The laundry and the dishes and the cleaning goes first. Then I drop the ball at work. And I try to keep the parenting ball spinning, but that slows down and wavers time to time too.

Then YOU need to figure out how to fix it and it has nothing to do with your in-laws. It seems like you want to blame everyone for the problems in your life, talk about how great of a planner you were and how none of this is your fault yet you can't seem to get it figured out. There are millions of moms out there handling it, many of them single moms with no support.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
That was then this is now? That was circumstances out of most of our control? This is their choice?

*My inlaws have the means. They have the means. They are a resource,* if they make different choices.









I honestly spend a fraction talking about this: here, to them, to DH.

I mean, most of the time I'm at work or driving to pick up or drop off at daycare. Add in time to get ready for work, sleep, and eat and maybe a phone call or get together with a friend, and there is 99% of my time.

I mean this past weekend, I did some work from home on a project, cleaned, did laundry, took my kid to a cheap matinee at the budget theater, took my kid to a park, met a friend (twice), and cleaned, cleaned, cleaned, sorted laundry and threw in loads.

I don't spend a lot of time worrying about my inlaws. Really, it's just post-travel for work and post-meetings for work when I get a lifted eyebrow for having to take vacation pre- and post-travel to prepare my household and recuperate.

Your in-laws are not a resource, and its not your business if they have the means. They have no obligation to share their money with you or your family.


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## azgirl (Nov 27, 2006)

Are these the same grandparents who you believe would spend huge sums of money helping your husband in a custody battle if you leave him?


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## bits and bobs (Apr 7, 2008)

* Why do you think I am wrong? How can grandparents justify treating one child unfairly?

_Because that's the way it currently is. It doesn't matter if you are right and they are being unfair. It is what it is. How can YOU possibly change them?_

* If they want to see him, as they have said they do, then why are they under no obligation to be fair?

_Seeing him even a bit seems to be enough for them. It might not be enough for you but you can't force them. You simply can not make them do it._

* So, does anyone have an obligation to anyone else to be fair?

_No. It would be nice if the world was like that but everyone keeps saying, and you refuse to accept that life is not equal or fair._

>>>I have 2 kids and no grand-parent help. My friend has 1 kid and her parents have done her childcare since she was born. Can I force my parents/ILs to do the same-no!!! I might want them to, but it's not going to happen.

>>>Truly you have to find a way to move on from this notion of 'it's not fair'. That's what my 6 year old DD says about everything her brother does that she doesn't. What I say to her, and I say to you is this-life can't be totally equal, that is the way it is. I understand the frustration-I have no help either-but MOVE on.

>>>Is it possible you have something in your life others don't, and those others look at you and say it's not fair that TIN does xyz and we don't?


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## rhiandmoi (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
Depends on the forum, I guess, what my response has been. I've taken some advice.

But the advice here has been "revisit being a SAHM" and "leave your husband" or "have your husband help more."

It's not quite that simple. I wish it were. It would be solved by now.

Thanks for the thoughts, though.









No the advice is own your situation. Stop obsessing about what other people are or are not doing, and get your own thing going. If your dh sucks, leave him. If your ils suck, stop looking to them for help. If you don't have childcare for a late night or an out of towner tell your boss you can't go. Own your situation.


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## zebra15 (Oct 2, 2009)

OP, just looking at this 'fairness' from a totally different viewpoint. Since you seem stuck on things being fair. Could it be that the inlaws are trying to be as 'fair' as the other set of grandparents are being? You posted that your parents are not involved, dont have the means to help etc so possibly in some warped sense they dont want to 'spoil' from their side when nothing is coming in from the other side, ya know?

Possibly the family they are 'helping' has extended family 'helping' as well.??

I still believe that grandparents have no rights, and no obligations. And people are free to spend their money how they see fit and if that means they choose not to send anything to family A and everything to family B, sorry but thats the luck of it all.

This whole thing goes along with the saying 'Life isn't fair'.

I could cry you the Mississippi about how unfair my side of the family is to DS but its not worth the effort.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Well, I can see this is going nowhere. Some posts are helpful, most not. Every time I attempt to deconstruct, the basic advice is "life is not fair" (no kidding), "leave your husband," "make your husband do his 'fair' share" (interesting), "handle your responsibilities yourself," and "just go out and build your own village."

Deconstruct further and you find that _some_ people are SAHPs with supportive to semi-supportive spouses and / or full or semi-villages, who aren't in this place and while have their own struggles probably do not get _this_ on _this_ level. Granted, there is no way to compare.

_I'm not blaming everyone else and shirking all my responsibility._

God, I've done the opposite of that and carried more of the load for longer than I think is healthy, but with no alternative, that's what needs to be done. _And I'm doing it. I'm not waiting around for someone else to do it._

'Life is not fair' is not an answer. It's a trite saying. To say no one has any obligation to be fair to another person is just...bizarre. People have obligations. They don't always live up to them. Yes, life is unfair. Obviously. The ends don't justify the means.

Yes, I'm quite sure my inlaws pick up on some of the tone. I'm sure they are uncomfortable as heck around these parts. Their actions PREDATE all of this and are a cause of at least some of it.

It isn't accurate to assume the "response" to (or effect of) their actions is the "cause" of their actions.

First comes the chicken, then the egg.

Sure, things can compound and get worse, but the cause comes first, the reaction second.

_I can't argue against a mob of people. If the chorus says something, then there must be truth in it._

Parents on these boards talk about the need for a village ad nauseum. But say you need a village a little too much, when the going gets really tough, and you might be interpreted as thinking you are demanding a village, expecting a village, thinking you deserve nothing less than a village.

It either takes a village or it doesn't. I feel it does. Or life is perpetually like pulling an all nighter in college. But if there is not one, then that doesn't remove personal responsiblity, and that has not happened here.

Somehow some of you have criticized me for complaining as though that is all I am doing.

I'm not resting on past accomplishments and shirking responsibilitiy. I am pulling an unending all nighter. I need a village, like all of you, and sometimes that might be hard to see or understand if you have givens in your life taken for granted or accepted as fundamentals. I think this is human nature. I'm sure I do it myself on many levels.

Lastly, I'm stunned none of you feel your parents or inlaws have any obligation to your children. In an ethical context, for discussion's sake, if a child's parents die or become disabled, or incarcerated, or incapcitated, do grandparents have no obligation? Do grandparents with means and age have no obligation to the children of their children? It's interesting the responses I have read here and yet you will find in many other forums here on MDC statements about how American society differs in parenting cultural norms from other cultures where the extended family collectively cares for children as a village.

It's just interesting - our cultural norm of independence versus collective and how it manifests in parenting.

It's also funny how 5 minutes of posting and complaining about a longstanding inequitable situation becomes shirking responsibility and not fixing things myself when the 23 other hours of the day are spent doing just that at an exhausting pace.


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

I haven't read all the responses so forgive me if I am repeating.
So basically how would I feel if my IL's were the same way as yours towards my children? My emotional self would feel hurt and I'd feel bad. Maybe my relationship towards them would be strained. But my logical self would also tell me that they really have no responsibility towards my children or even to me. If I want my children to have a relationship with them and they are not making an effort, then I should make an effort maybe until something gives or I realize the futility of it.
I believe that parents have a responsibility to raise their own children and not their children's children.
As far as it taking a village, yes, it does take a village but last I checked, you really can't force people to be a member of your village if they don't want to. Which is why, yes, you have to create your own village made up of willing souls who will create the environment that you envision for your child.


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## waiflywaif (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:

In an ethical context, for discussion's sake, if a child's parents die or become disabled, or incarcerated, or incapcitated, do grandparents have no obligation? Do grandparents with means and age have no obligation to the children of their children?
No, not really. Legally they don't either. It would be nice. It would be "expected," in a "basic human being" and an "etiquette" sense. But again, if they don't want to behave that way YOU CANNOT MAKE THEM. So those expectations need to be let go.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grumpybear* 
I haven't read all the responses so forgive me if I am repeating.
So basically how would I feel if my IL's were the same way as yours towards my children? My emotional self would feel hurt and I'd feel bad. Maybe my relationship towards them would be strained. But my logical self would also tell me that they really have no responsibility towards my children or even to me. If I want my children to have a relationship with them and they are not making an effort, then I should make an effort maybe until something gives or I realize the futility of it.
I believe that parents have a responsibility to raise their own children and not their children's children.
As far as it taking a village, yes, it does take a village but last I checked, you really can't force people to be a member of your village if they don't want to. Which is why, yes, you have to create your own village made up of willing souls who will create the environment that you envision for your child.

Good post. Thanks. Resonates. I believe this, too.

I don't feel my inlaws owe me a thing, for what it's worth. They have no obligation to me.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waiflywaif* 
No, not really. Legally they don't either. It would be nice. It would be "expected," in a "basic human being" and an "etiquette" sense. But again, if they don't want to behave that way YOU CANNOT MAKE THEM. So those expectations need to be let go.











We have a breakthrough! Excellent!

THANK YOU!

Yes, I mean what is "expected."

"In a basic human being" sense.

"Etiquette."

Yes, those are the things I mean. Isn't fairness in the way they treat their grandchildren good etiquette?

Isn't it expected, generally, as a social good?

It might even be further argued that it is "expected behavior" or "normative behavior" for grandmas and grandpas to behave that way towards grandchildren.

Then, too, is it not "bad etiquette" for grandmothers or grandfathers to treat minor, innocent grandchildren inequally?

I get that "life is not fair." I get it. I know it. I hear it. I see it. I'm not some social moron where this basic tenet of impartial life is lost on me.

But isn't it generally accepted that fair is "good behavior" and within reason to "expect" good behavior or the relationship will suffer?

And isn't it good etiquette for grandparents to be fair and bad etiquette for grandparents to be unfair?

That's where I'm coming from.











































































































































































This is awesome. I'm so glad for this breakthrough. And, for what it's worth, I don't want to make them do this by my will. I do not think I can make them do anything. (That's a given).

I want them to choose good etiquette. I want them to make good choices and have good expectations of themselves.

They have their own free will. But they can not mistreat my child and be inequitable in a constant and chronic way. They don't get to treat him as less, repeatedly. If and when they do that, they don't get to treat him at all, in any way. That's what I'm saying. If they want a relationship at all, they have to exercise good etiquette.


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## waiflywaif (Oct 17, 2005)

That's right. But YOUR choices are to cut them off or put up with it, since they are unlikely to change.

I'd also not ask them for money or "help" or anything like that, if the relationship is already so strained.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waiflywaif* 
That's right. But YOUR choices are to cut them off or put up with it, since they are unlikely to change.

I'd also not ask them for money or "help" or anything like that, if the relationship is already so strained.

You know what, though? Neither you or I know how likely they are to change, really. I've tried to emphasize that my child is young. Not even 1/3 of the way through childhood. There are years ahead of us for something to click with my inlaws in terms of good etiquette and for them to make changes.

And, just throwing out theories here for my own thought process, I really do think if I bent over backwards they would change. Really, I do.

If I moved my family across the country to a warmer climate in winter, and bought a home with a pool and a patio where they could smoke? If I incurred debt and set up a cool rec room with a large television and comfortable couch they sink into with two large recliners specifically bought for MIL and FIL? If when they came to visit I bought a fully stocked cooler of beer and had a home bar with mixed drinks and bought some steaks to grill up later on, they would love that. If I incurred further debt and bought a house that would accommodate DH's man cave room we have now AND a Laura Ashley guest bedroom with a queen size bed and a private bathroom and a tv, I guarantee that my inlaws would come to visit. A lot.

If I didn't ask them to go to children's museums, parks, pools, the movies, bowling, on walks, children's events, children's concerts, or school activities when they visited, I guarantee they would visit more.

If I did all those things, the inlaws would for sure come and visit often and for long periods of time.

They would love that.

In fact, if DH and I just opened up a bed and breakfast we could evoke fairness.










I'm not even really half-kidding. It's more true than not.


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## Lil'M (Oct 27, 2002)

So what you're saying is your IL's are very selfish and only want to do what feels like a vacation and is fun to them. They don't care enough about their grandchildren to be with/do with for their own sake, only in conjunction with what they want.

If you still feel that these selfish people can help you somehow in your life and you would be better for their participation with your dc, I guess you would have to entice them with something they want. Maybe if they don't want to do child oriented activities you could ask them under what conditions they would visit.

I agree, it is unfair. There are probably lonely people in your area who would love to be surrogate grandparents and be involved with your family. Maybe a local church or senior center could help you meet someone?


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## HappyMommy2 (Jan 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
.. if I bent over backwards they would change. Really, I do.

If I moved my family across the country to a warmer climate in winter, and bought a home with a pool and a patio where they could smoke? If I incurred debt and set up a cool rec room with a large television and comfortable couch they sink into with two large recliners specifically bought for MIL and FIL? If when they came to visit I bought a fully stocked cooler of beer and had a home bar with mixed drinks and bought some steaks to grill up later on, they would love that. If I incurred further debt and bought a house that would accommodate DH's man cave room we have now AND a Laura Ashley guest bedroom with a queen size bed and a private bathroom and a tv, I guarantee that my inlaws would come to visit. A lot.

...

If I did all those things, the inlaws would for sure come and visit often and for long periods of time.

---.

I doubt it mama. I really doubt it. I think you are going to drive yourself insane with jealousy with this kind of thinking.

Granted, I am not in your family, but I seriously doubt the status quo is going to change.

I mean the following in a gentle way, because I don't think you are hearing yourself, your excuses, and the pretty consistent advice you are receiving.

I think everyone is trying to tell you to focus on the things that YOU CAN change. YOU, and only you. Stop coming up with scenarios that are totally irrelevant to your situation.

Spending money is not going to change your in-laws feelings or behavior. Dreaming and getting angry about it is totally useless.

For starters, you should tell your hubby that you are hiring a housecleaner every 2 weeks. End of story.

Good luck mama!


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## bits and bobs (Apr 7, 2008)

"I'm so glad for this breakthrough. And, for what it's worth, I don't want to make them do this by my will. I do not think I can make them do anything. (That's a given).

I want them to choose good etiquette. I want them to make good choices and have good expectations of themselves.

They have their own free will. But they can not mistreat my child and be inequitable in a constant and chronic way. They don't get to treat him as less, repeatedly. If and when they do that, they don't get to treat him at all, in any way. That's what I'm saying. If they want a relationship at all, they have to exercise good etiquette."

You just don't seem to get it.

The use of the word 'eitquette' has you all happy now, calling it a breakthrough-huh??!!

You want them to "choose good etiquette"---I feel like I am beating my head against a wall here. They for whatever reason don't visit you much. Etiquette doesn't make people do things, fairness doesn't make people do things. If they don't choose to visit you, you have to accept it. Don't brush this off, it is true.

You can't make them make 'good choices' and 'have good expectations'. You are not them, you don't control them.

You need to accept that they ARE NOT mistreating your child. They don't beat him, or abuse him---they don't spent much time with him, that's it. That is not mistreatment. By that definition my parents and ILs mistreat our kids.

You want them to change, do you not realise that in general people don't change?


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HappyMommy2* 
I doubt it mama. I really doubt it. I think you are going to drive yourself insane with jealousy with this kind of thinking.

Granted, I am not in your family, but I seriously doubt the status quo is going to change.

I mean the following in a gentle way, because I don't think you are hearing yourself, your excuses, and the pretty consistent advice you are receiving.

I think everyone is trying to tell you to focus on the things that YOU CAN change. YOU, and only you. Stop coming up with scenarios that are totally irrelevant to your situation.

Spending money is not going to change your in-laws feelings or behavior. Dreaming and getting angry about it is totally useless.

For starters, you should tell your hubby that you are hiring a housecleaner every 2 weeks. End of story.

Good luck mama!

Oh, this isn't dreaming or jealousy. I actually don't want any of those things I wrote about that would "lure" my inlaws to visit more.

I was being facetious.







I do think my inlaws would respond to that, truly, I do, but I am just not ever going to pursue that end. It would be wasteful, irresponsible, and, well, shallow.

I mean, I have fantastic credit and no debt. I could buy those things. Today. I could even go out and get a higher paying job and pay for them with cash in a year or two. I could make the best and brightest grandparent B & B they ever have seen.

Uh, no.

If I wanted a pool, a Laura Ashley guest bedroom, or giant tv, I'd get them. I don't want an inlaw suite, so to speak.

I put my money into my kid and to living debt free, and what I have left over I put towards real causes and issues that I care about (charity). I like that we have no credit card debt. I'm not incurring it for others. I'm not going to incur debt for consumer "stuff" to appease someone else or lure them to visiting a grandchild who is valuable without that stuff as a draw.

This isn't actually about jealousy. That is so surface.

I don't think my inlaws owe me anything, should buy me anything, or are obligated to me in any way. I am not asking them for things for me. I never have. I never will.

The reason etiquette was such a break-through - for me - is because if my inlaws can't play nice, they need to go home. Figuratively. The old playground reference?

If they can't treat my son with equity (all things being equal - as in the other kids don't need something more, aren't disabled, aren't impoversished, aren't going without meals) and they can't use good etiquette, then they can't play.

If they want a relationship, as they have said they do, then it must be a balanced and good relationship. I will not sit by and watch them mistreat my son.

I didn't say abuse my son. They are not abusing them. And they're under no legal obligation for anything.

But they can't mistreat him and they really are doing that with their actions and their words.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

You're going to sever contact with them because they visit the other family more frequently? What does your husband think of this plan?


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I think a lot of this emotional stuff is getting in the way for you at this point TIN. I do think you need to change things at home in order not to be so burnt out. And it's totally understandable that you wish your ILs would help...I think it was a different thread where I said it's very hard to ask for help and not get it.

But in terms of the relationship with your son - I'm not sure I would frame it so negatively. I had a grandmother who behaved pretty similarly with my family, mostly because she didn't support my parents' immigration to Canada (and wouldn't go north of the Mason-Dixon line), and also 'cause she never really liked my dad. She also hated kids (all kids, including her own when they were little) and made no bones about that fact. She wasn't mean about it. She just wasn't a get on the floor and play kind of grandmother.

For years and years I'd say I hardly even noticed. When you're a kid your grandparents either show up or they don't - it's not that close a relationship unless it is, if you know what I mean. Unless your son's very tight with his cousins and they point it out to him, I don't think he's likely to notice any of this at least for a good few years. And once he can go visit them, it's a game changer.

I think it hurt my parents way more than it impacted me that she didn't visit, didn't send as many or as personal gifts, and so on. We did visit her and the visits generally were a little boring but fine. It was only in my teens that I really became aware of the tension and the differences and at that point I was probably a little harsh with her and didn't visit her again - I have regret about that, but it's not soul-eating or anything. I just didn't get to know her side of things.

I'm not sure I would invest a lot more emotional energy on it at this point. If it comes up with gifts at Xmas that might be a time to mention something to them.


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## bits and bobs (Apr 7, 2008)

Again, they are not mistreating him.

You have a very loose definition of mistreat.

If you believe they are 'mistreating' him, then why oh why even bother having a relationship.

How many millions of other families must be suffering the same 'mistreatment'? Did you see where I said my parents and ILs barely see my kids, but I don't run around saying they are mistreated as a result.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I'm not sure I would invest a lot more emotional energy on it at this point. If it comes up with gifts at Xmas that might be a time to mention something to them.

Solid advice. That's the plan.









Unless they initiate.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
She also hated kids (all kids, including her own when they were little) and made no bones about that fact. She wasn't mean about it. She just wasn't a get on the floor and play kind of grandmother.

Was she that way with all the grandkids or just some? Sounds like she was that with her own kids too. Equal treatment. Not ideal treatment, by anyone's standards but her own and people like her, but equal treatment.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bits and bobs* 
Again, they are not mistreating him.

You have a very loose definition of mistreat.

If you believe they are 'mistreating' him, then why oh why even bother having a relationship.

How many millions of other families must be suffering the same 'mistreatment'? Did you see where I said my parents and ILs barely see my kids, but I don't run around saying they are mistreated as a result.

I am truly sorry to read how your own parents and ILs barely see your children.

My own parents barely see my child, too, so I understand. But I do not hold that against my parents because they do not treat my child unfairly. My parents do not see any of their grandchildren regularly. Not just my son. They don't do anything for any of their grandchildren and there are understandable reasons for that (understandable that is, not good reasons, but understandable). They treat all their grandchildren equally. Fairly.

My inlaws on the other hand don't hate kids from the looks of it because they dote on the other grandchildren and visit frquently. Whether they enjoy the pool or not, there are still children there so if they hated kids, they would find a pool without kids. They haven't. MIL and FIL have said they truly enjoy their grandchildren. They've said they want to do things with their grandchildren. But they don't put the same time, money, or effort into their grandchildren. Their choice, yes, but maybe not the best etiquette.

And as far as mistreating a child - yes, thankfully they are not abusive to my knowledge nor would I expect that they could be, but giving some kids expensive, nice things for Christmas and other kids (all the same age, by the way) cheap, not as nice gifts? It goes beyond even that. My MIL has done this a few times where she'll give very personal, heartfelt gifts to one set of kids and last-minute low-budget dollar specials from Wal-mart to others. Now, young kids are often happy with the box, right? But my son has started to pick up on a few things and why should I let him feel like they think he is less. We don't have to spend our Christmases feeling that way. So, yeah, if they keep this crap up, they will be cut out. Absolutely. Please don't just cut and respond to that last part, out of context with the rest.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I think a lot of this emotional stuff is getting in the way for you at this point TIN. I do think you need to change things at home in order not to be so burnt out. And it's totally understandable that you wish your ILs would help...I think it was a different thread where I said it's very hard to ask for help and not get it.

But in terms of the relationship with your son - I'm not sure I would frame it so negatively. I had a grandmother who behaved pretty similarly with my family, mostly because she didn't support my parents' immigration to Canada (and wouldn't go north of the Mason-Dixon line), and also 'cause she never really liked my dad. She also hated kids (all kids, including her own when they were little) and made no bones about that fact. She wasn't mean about it. She just wasn't a get on the floor and play kind of grandmother.

For years and years I'd say I hardly even noticed. When you're a kid your grandparents either show up or they don't - it's not that close a relationship unless it is, if you know what I mean. Unless your son's very tight with his cousins and they point it out to him, I don't think he's likely to notice any of this at least for a good few years. And once he can go visit them, it's a game changer.

I think it hurt my parents way more than it impacted me that she didn't visit, didn't send as many or as personal gifts, and so on. We did visit her and the visits generally were a little boring but fine. It was only in my teens that I really became aware of the tension and the differences and at that point I was probably a little harsh with her and didn't visit her again - I have regret about that, but it's not soul-eating or anything. I just didn't get to know her side of things.

*I'm not sure I would invest a lot more emotional energy on it at this point. If it comes up with gifts at Xmas that might be a time to mention something to them*.

Thank you. As I said earlier, this is solid advice. Thanks so much. I will let another 3 or 4 months go by and see where we are at, and leave open the invitation for them.










In the interim, I have plenty to keep me occupied and to take my physical and emotional energy. Work. Lots of big projects coming up, some exciting. Some travel (for work). Selling the house and finding an apartment near work. Looking for new job opportunities. Every day living. And finding joy in raising a beautiful young boy and meeting the responsibilities of providing for and raising him fully on my own.

Thanks!!


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## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *That Is Nice* 
Oh, this isn't dreaming or jealousy. I actually don't want any of those things I wrote about that would "lure" my inlaws to visit more.

I was being facetious.







I do think my inlaws would respond to that, truly, I do, but I am just not ever going to pursue that end. It would be wasteful, irresponsible, and, well, shallow.

I *mean, I have fantastic credit and no debt. I could buy those things. Today. I could even go out and get a higher paying job and pay for them with cash in a year or two. I could make the best and brightest grandparent B & B they ever have seen.*

Uh, no.

If I wanted a pool, a Laura Ashley guest bedroom, or giant tv, I'd get them. I don't want an inlaw suite, so to speak.

I put my money into my kid and to living debt free, and what I have left over I put towards real causes and issues that I care about (charity). I like that we have no credit card debt. I'm not incurring it for others. I'm not going to incur debt for consumer "stuff" to appease someone else or lure them to visiting a grandchild who is valuable without that stuff as a draw.

This isn't actually about jealousy. That is so surface.

I don't think my inlaws owe me anything, should buy me anything, or are obligated to me in any way. I am not asking them for things for me. I never have. I never will.

The reason etiquette was such a break-through - for me - is because if my inlaws can't play nice, they need to go home. Figuratively. The old playground reference?

If they can't treat my son with equity (all things being equal - as in the other kids don't need something more, aren't disabled, aren't impoversished, aren't going without meals) and they can't use good etiquette, then they can't play.

If they want a relationship, as they have said they do, then it must be a balanced and good relationship. I will not sit by and watch them mistreat my son.

I didn't say abuse my son. They are not abusing them. And they're under no legal obligation for anything.

But they can't mistreat him and they really are doing that with their actions and their words.










If you can get a better paying job or afford those things then do it and hire a housekeeper and nanny and don't expect other people to pick up the slack for you.

In regards to your comments about the idea of "it takes a village", I don't think any of us are saying that it doesn't but for many of us that don't have family we have made a concerted effort to create a community for ourselves and our children. Many people either don't live near family or don't have family support so have built a support system within the community through friends. I have no family within 800 miles of us yet we have a rich "village" of people who love and support us.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 
If you can get a better paying job or afford those things then do it and hire a housekeeper and nanny and don't expect other people to pick up the slack for you.

In regards to your comments about the idea of "it takes a village", I don't think any of us are saying that it doesn't but for many of us that don't have family we have made a concerted effort to create a community for ourselves and our children. *Many people either don't live near family or don't have family support so have built a support system within the community through friends. I have no family within 800 miles of us yet we have a rich "village" of people who love and support us*.

I don't understand why you haven't done that?


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waiflywaif* 
No, not really. Legally they don't either. It would be nice. It would be "expected," in a "basic human being" and an "etiquette" sense. But again, if they don't want to behave that way YOU CANNOT MAKE THEM. So those expectations need to be let go.

I'm not even sure I would consider it "expected" or "basic human being." Everything I've ever read about choosing guardianship for your children says that you should not automatically assume your parents or ILs should or want to take over. That raising young children is a difficult, long-term task and that grandparents shouldn't be expected to have the interest or ability. The conventional wisdom seems to be that you should pick at least someone of your generation who you trust and who really understands the responsibility of taking on the care of young children.

OP, I know that you don't believe us, but PLENTY of people don't have a village. It's really insulting to continue to insist that you have it harder than everyone else because your in-laws don't dote on your child. You may have it harder than others because you don't insist that your DH pull down his fair share, but that doesn't actually make you a single mother and I would suspect that actual single mothers with no family help (and, yes, you may not believe this but there are plenty) resent that. It just means that you don't advocate for yourself with your husband.

Out of curiosity, what exactly do you do for your in-laws? You've only said that you don't have a nice bedroom for them to stay in and when they come visit you demand that they spend the whole time going on educational excursions and buying things for your child. I'm not entirely sure I'd want to visit you either, when the alternative _is_ a nice place to stay and a low-pressure vacation. But even besides those things, what do you do for them?


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## colobus237 (Feb 2, 2004)

If they don't provide you with the free goods and services you deserve, they are toxic and should be cut off from contact with their grandkid. Is that what you wanted to hear?


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
You may have it harder than others because you don't insist that your DH pull down his fair share, but that doesn't actually make you a single mother and I would suspect that actual single mothers with no family help (and, yes, you may not believe this but there are plenty) resent that. It just means that you don't advocate for yourself with your husband.

The OP's husband is abusive. She is not to blame for his behavior and she can't control it. She can insist and advocate for herself until she's blue in the face but it's not likely to do much good. If a single mother resents her than that single mother probably never lived with an abusive partner.

I do agree the OP can't control the in-laws either and should let it go. I think her energy is needed elsewhere even though of course her feelings about it are understandable (though I agree some of the items on the wish list are unreasonable, even if they do those things for the other family).


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## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Needle in the Hay* 
*The OP's husband is abusive.* She is not to blame for his behavior and she can't control it. She can insist and advocate for herself until she's blue in the face but it's not likely to do much good. If a single mother resents her than that single mother probably never lived with an abusive partner.

I do agree the OP can't control the in-laws either and should let it go. I think her energy is needed elsewhere even though of course her feelings about it are understandable (though I agree some of the items on the wish list are unreasonable, even if they do those things for the other family).

Lazy and uncooperative do not equal abusive. I haven't read anything that indicates her husband is abusive. Yes, she is to blame for her husband's behavior, she is allowing him to continue to behave that way. You teach people how to treat you. She can stand up to him or walk. She has the ability to get a better paying job, she has a credit score of 800, she has the ability to get financing and loans; thats a lot more than most women have when they leave their marriages.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 
Lazy and uncooperative do not equal abusive. *I haven't read anything that indicates her husband is abusive*. Yes, she is to blame for her husband's behavior, she is allowing him to continue to behave that way. You teach people how to treat you. She can stand up to him or walk. She has the ability to get a better paying job, she has a credit score of 800, she has the ability to get financing and loans; thats a lot more than most women have when they leave their marriages.

That comes from other threads. He has been abusing her for years. Her descriptions of him are so frightening that, now, whenever I meet a man of his approximate age and job description, I ask him about his wife and kids' ages and genders so as to reassure myself that it isn't him. I would not be alone in a room with OP's husband.


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## waiflywaif (Oct 17, 2005)

If true, then I don't even know what she's doing posting about him helping out and taking vacation and whatnot. There should be no focus on anything else but leaving, in that case.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waiflywaif* 
If true, then I don't even know what she's doing posting about him helping out and taking vacation and whatnot. There should be no focus on anything else but leaving, in that case.

There is no "should" in abusive relationships. She is making strides even complaining about him, and planning an escape, it's farther than a lot of women get.


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 
Lazy and uncooperative do not equal abusive. I haven't read anything that indicates her husband is abusive. Yes, she is to blame for her husband's behavior, she is allowing him to continue to behave that way. You teach people how to treat you. She can stand up to him or walk. She has the ability to get a better paying job, she has a credit score of 800, she has the ability to get financing and loans; thats a lot more than most women have when they leave their marriages.

You really don't know a lot about abuse. If you did, you wouldn't blame the victim of it. I hope she does get away from him and soon, but it's not as simple as you might think. I hope you'll educate yourself on abuse before saying anything more about it.


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Can someone please post links to some of op's old threads? I would like to get more info before I respond.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dr.Worm* 
Can someone please post links to some of op's old threads? I would like to get more info before I respond.

I dont think you can do that. I think the only person who can post a link to other threads in other forums is the OP of the thread or an admin.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:

OP, I know that you don't believe us, but PLENTY of people don't have a village. It's really insulting to continue to insist that you have it harder than everyone else because your in-laws don't dote on your child. You may have it harder than others because you don't insist that your DH pull down his fair share, but that doesn't actually make you a single mother and I would suspect that actual single mothers with no family help (and, yes, you may not believe this but there are plenty) resent that. It just means that you don't advocate for yourself with your husband.
For the record, I never said that, nor would I ever say such a thing. I don't make that claim.

I can't make my husband do anything nor should I have to to advocate for myself.

Believe me, I have insisted. It is not a lack of insisting or advocating.

At any rate, this thread has taken a very disillusioned and caustic turn with the last couple of posts, and I would ask, respectfully, to please not link to my other posts, as requested, and to please close the thread, if possible.

I am not a side show.

Thank you very respectfully.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dr.Worm* 
Can someone please post links to some of op's old threads? I would like to get more info before I respond.

you can click on her name and look at 'statistics' to see her posts.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
you can click on her name and look at 'statistics' to see her posts.

Really? Wow.

I'm done with this thread.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Nice, you can PM a mod and have them delete the whole thing.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 
In regards to your comments about the idea of "it takes a village", I don't think any of us are saying that it doesn't but for many of us that don't have family we have made a concerted effort to create a community for ourselves and our children. Many people either don't live near family or don't have family support so have built a support system within the community through friends. I have no family within 800 miles of us yet we have a rich "village" of people who love and support us.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
I don't understand why you haven't done that?

Yikes, and she is supposed to do this in her "spare" time? What store do you go to in order to just pick up a village? It would be great if it were that easy folks, but it is not. So don't be so flippant about it please.

The OP has an awful lot on her plate as it is.

And since I am ranting, how on earth do those of you with this proverbial village acquire it? I'm guessing it takes _years_ and an extroverted personality. Going to a single church and having your kids in school, or a homeschool group probably help too. _Not everyone has those elements in place in their lives._ In my own case its just me and my husband. It is hard and sometimes it sucks, and let me tell you folks who tell me that I just need to go out and make some friends so they can watch my kid just flat out don't understand. Its







.

OP your situation is extremely frustrating. I wish you peace, and in the future I wish for you someone you can count on. Being the only horse who is pulling the cart is not good.


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## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Needle in the Hay* 
You really don't know a lot about abuse. If you did, you wouldn't blame the victim of it. I hope she does get away from him and soon, but it's not as simple as you might think. I hope you'll educate yourself on abuse before saying anything more about it.

Actually, I am a volunteer domestic abuse counselor and as such have had extensive training on domestic abuse and have spent countless hours with domestic abuse victims and I grew up in a domestic abuse household. Nothing, I repeat, nothing she has posted in THIS THREAD says anything that indicates her husband is abusive, and in fact she posted that she never claimed he is abusive. You saying that the OP's husband is abusive does not make is true.


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

TIN, I'm sorry if I offended you by wanting to go back and read your other threads. I don't want you to think I think you are hiding things or not being honest or whatever. I just didn't feel like I knew enough about your situation yet to be of any help. I'm sorry you're going through all of this.


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

TIN, I'm sorry this thread hasn't been helpful to you, but in case you're still reading it, to answer the ? you posted, I personally think my ILs have an obligation to their children and grands, but I can't make it happen. I"ve tried guilt, sweetness and light--they just don't care. So for me, it's not worth getting myself all worked up about (although I still do on occasion). They're the way they are. They treated DH w/ benign neglect and they're carrying on the tradition. I think you would do better to let this go. You'll never change them, and it'll only hurt you more to try. They're jerks, end of story.


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## catballou24 (Mar 18, 2003)

Based on the borderline UAV's that are going on in this thread, it is now closed to further commenting. If the OP wants to start up a new one, she is free to do so however. Thank you for your understanding.


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