# Why isn't spanking treated like spousal abuse?



## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

(putting on my asbestos suit)

MDC's Code says that it (we) have zero telerance for spanking -- that it is child abuse. Yet when I've seen moms here "confess" to spanking their kids in a crazy losing-control rage**, reactions are often sympathetic: "oh, you sound stressed, can you get more support?" and empathic: "we've all been there!" Posters suggest "getting over" this "blip" as if it won't be repeated, and they rarely suggest that the spanker should leave the household or the child.

Yet when someone posts from the other side of the abuse, that her partner has hit her, the sympathies run the other way: "oh my gosh, hugs!" and the responses are angry and insistent: "get out of the house! You CANNOT stay with this man!" Posters will explain that someone who's hit before will NOT change, that abuse often escalates, and that no amount of "stress" or "lack of support" is an excuse for the abuser to hit. Posters also discourage (accurately, I think) the idea that counseling will help the abuser change.

Why the disparity? I admit that part of my puzzlement is my inability to understand abuse of any kind (toward adult OR child). We've all been stressed [check my previous posts before you try to top ME for lack of support or money], yet very few descend to hitting another human for release. And I've been the victim (I grew up with abuse), so I can't fathom putting *my* child in that h*ll. (And thus I don't buy "abuse is the only pattern I know" as justification; we've all seen other patterns via TV, books and friends, and further are capable of independent thought and self-control.) Perhaps abusers of every sort are "different," unbalanced perhaps in a brain-chemical way; maybe it's a disease like alcoholism. But if so, why not a uniform, treat-as-disease-but-protect-the-victims response to all abuse?

Anyway, have others noticed this disparity between treatment (within MDC*) of spankers and spousal-abusers? Anyone want to explain it to me?

*Of course I recognize that communities outside MDC condone spanking, while frowning on adults hitting each other. I'm not touching THAT paradox. But even those outside communities likely distinguish between spanking-as-calmly-applied-discipline (which would be okay there, if not here) and spanking-because-parent-loses-control-in-a-rage (which surely seems analogous to "stressed hubby loses control and beats wife"). It's the latter scenario that shows in the confessional posts I decry above. (**I'm not criticizing the posters who admit they used to spank as a disciplinary tool but changed to GD. Hey, we all learn and improve our parenting skills over time.)


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:

MDC's Code says that it (we) have zero telerance for spanking -- that it is child abuse. Yet when I've seen moms here "confess" to spanking their kids in a crazy losing-control rage**, reactions are often sympathetic: "oh, you sound stressed, can you get more support?" and empathic: "we've all been there!" Posters suggest "getting over" this "blip" as if it won't be repeated, and they rarely suggest that the spanker should leave the household or the child.
Well, I would say because spanking is generally accepted in mainstream society, and spousal abuse isn't.

In the spanking case, the poster is the one who has confessed that she has committed the offense of spanking. In the abuse case, she is the victim. In the spanking case, she is obviously admitting that she wants to change and do better. In the victim case, the only person's whose actions she has control over in her own.

While I understand your puzzlement at the paradox, I am curious as to what you would suggest. No one is allowed to come here and advocate spanking. And while you personally might not buy the "abuse is the only pattern I know" argument, evidence shows otherwise. Victims of child abuse are more likely to grow up to abuse.
http://www.therapistfinder.net/Child-Abuse/
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=229454
http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/05_history.html

I am trying hard to understand the intent behind your posr. How do you suggest we respond to mothers who have slipped up and spanked? Judge them? Tell them to give their kids away? Tell them what terrible parents they are? I've messed up and lost control and spanked my kids. Should I mail them to you?

Posts like this are exactly the reason I am glad Mothering will be hosting a forum for parents who were abused as children and are trying to better for their own children. There ARE unique issues. I struggle every single damn day to be a good mother. When I come here to confess my mistakes to like-minded mamas, I do not come here for judgement, I come here for advice to do better.


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

Interesting question. Part of it, I think, is that the parent-child relationship naturally engages all kinds of emotional, physical and financial dependencies that a spousal relationship shouldn't [obviously there is interdependence and sometimes dependence between spouses, but I don't think anyone would argue that they are along the same lines as those betwen a mom and a 3 year old]. So, practically speaking, it is just not realistic to say that, because a parent smacked their child on the leg or the bottom, the child is better off without the parent. Better off doing what? In a foster home? On the street? If a parent is convicted of assaulting the child criminally, the child will be removed from the home. If we're talking abuse, good. But as a consequence for a misguided spank, I'd have a problem with that. A child's welfare is tied to that of their parent in a different way than the welfare of two adult spouses is linked.

I believe that in Sweden, where there is no exemption from assault charges for 'discipline' of children, the legal threshold for assault is actually higher than in North America, so again (as an example) an open-handed slap on the bottom is not going to result in criminal charges and the child being taken away.

I don't think this is the only reason, but maybe part of it.


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## jmreinke (Jan 1, 2003)

Very well said Annettemarie!


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

*annettemarie*,

Quote:

I would say because spanking is generally accepted in mainstream society, and spousal abuse isn't.
Ah, but we're wiser here on MDC.







Or do you mean that some of us have internalized (from the mainstream) the idea that spanking IS okay, and are fighting an internal battle about whether we truly WANT to use Gentle Discipline? So when we get stressed, some of us genuinely think that spanking is an okay option? That wasn't the tone of the "confessional" posts I read here.

Quote:

In the spanking case, the poster is the one who has confessed that she has committed the offense of spanking. In the abuse case, she is the victim. In the spanking case, she is obviously admitting that she wants to change and do better. In the victim case, the only person's whose actions she has control over in her own.
Yeah; I know messageboard etiquette is generally to offer up support for the poster, no matter what, so whoever posts -- as abuser OR victim -- is gonna get sympathy. And I *haven't* gone to look for Battering Men messageboards (shudder; I'm sure they're out there, probably as forums on Men's Rights sites). I truly wonder: on those sorts of sites, do battering men get the same sort of sympathy as that expressing here, to parents who spank? That's the crux of my OP. Really, I wish somebody would pay me to write a thesis on the comparison. I bet it'd be fascinating.

Quote:

While I understand your puzzlement at the paradox, I am curious as to what you would suggest. . . . I am trying hard to understand the intent behind your posr.
Nope, I don't have solutions to spanking -- if I did, I'd write it up as a bestseller! In my OP, I am focused less on "how parents should discipline" [already in the MDC Code and throughout this forum] or "defenses to parents who spank" [I haven't spanked, so I won't defend it] or "what to do for kids who have been spanked" [







-- I truly wish I could help], that the "meta-question," the "messageboard society psychology inquiry": why do we [MDCers] post to these similar abuse situations, so differently? And in that difference, is there perhaps some illumination into why people abuse? [Not an idle inquiry to me; I grew up with much sexual and other violence that I seek closure on, and I'm passionate about foster kids, kids in general, being free of abuse.] For instance, talking with other friends about my proposed OP, someone said, "It's more okay to hit a kid than to hit an adult, but I couldn't tell you why" (she was equally puzzled). Logic would seem to dictate the opposite, since kids are defenseless (CAN'T go to a battered-women's shelter; can't strike back). In the same discussion I said, "it's okay for me to yell at my cats, but not my kid, because my cats don't understand reasoning." Now, I leave room for my yelling at my cats to be wrong, there. I have really worried about that. But in thinking over the subject, I wonder: do some people equate kids to animals, incapable of reasoning? Is THAT how abuse starts?

Quote:

Posts like this are exactly the reason I am glad Mothering will be hosting a forum for parents who were abused as children and are trying to better for their own children.
??? I'm in that sad club (of childhood abuse survivors) too, annette -- I said so in my OP.

*mamastar2*,

Quote:

Part of it, I think, is that the parent-child relationship naturally engages all kinds of emotional, physical and financial dependencies that a spousal relationship shouldn't
Intriguing thought! Do you think there's a connection between "dependence encourages abuse" (to way oversimplify your post) and the common idea that abusers seek power, and in their abuse attempt to increase dependence (e.g., taking away wife's money and car, refusing to "let" her work outside the home, banning contact with her friends or family)?


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

I agree with what AnnetteMarie said, and I think I'll add a bit to it from my own perspective. Abuse is abuse is abuse, whether it's hitting or not, people should not [attempt to] control other people, whether it's through physical violence or other means. The issue is control. It's just wrong no matter how I look at it. When someone posts here that they have hit their child, and are seeking help in changing their behavior or their response to anger, they are asking for help. when a woman posts here that her partner has hit her, he is not wanting to change, does not see anything wrong with what he has done. THAT is the difference. The big difference is that in one case, the abuser realizes what they did was wrong, and they don't want to ever do it again. In the other case, the abuser justifies their actions and does not have any intention of changing. Even in spousal abuse situations, if the abusive partner wants to change, and gets the right sort of therapy, the relationship can be saved.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I'm not really sure how to respond to any of this. As a mama who has posted it the past that I have lost it and hit my kids, this sort of of attitude certainly does not make me feel like this is a safe place to seek help.

I don't know much about you, Seasons- how old your little one is, if you have more than one. I don't know if you have been in a situation where you have felt like spanking. I just know that I am having a difficult time not feeling judged or attacked in your post, because I am an awesome mama and I also screw up- a lot. Every single day I have to consciously make a decision on what kind of parent I will be. You may be asking deep philosphical questions about message board life in general, but I think the end result is that the mamas who have come to the GD board and "confessed" is going to feel attacked.

When I asked for your solution, I did not mean to spanking. I meant, how would you prefer we respond to women who have made a mistake and are trying to do better. Should we tell them to get out of their house and hand their kids over to CPS? Should we tell them that their kids deserve better parents then them, so they should give up rights?

For the record, and I hate feeling like I am pulling out my abuse credentials, but how you deal with abuse is how you deal with abuse, not a mandate for how the rest of us should. Everyone copes differently. What I took exception to was your assertion that victims of child abuse should somehow suck it up and show independent thought and self-control. I am not making excuses for myself. I know that hitting is wrong. I have been part of this community for a while, and if you look at my past posts in this forum, you will see how I have grown, changed, messed up, and started over. I would venture to say the same goes for all the mamas here.

I am probably going to bow out of this conversation and leave it to people less emtionally involved in the subject.


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

*


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Ok- just to throw another piece into the mix. We used to tell all women who were hit to leave and that any violence was an abusive relationship. That model just didn't work. There are two kinds of relationships which have violence. One is a very abusive, destructive pattern where the abuser is dangerous and actually in control of his (yes- usually his) behavior. These relationships are not likely to be repaired. These relationships are very dangerous. And if this kind of abuse were happening to a child, we would certainly be talking about calling CPS, protecting the child from a dangerous and destructive parent. The other kind of relationship violence is tough to explaing. It is about one partner (and it is often women) losing control, not being able to handle their anger and striking out verbally, emotionally and physically. Men are more likely to hit, women more likely to say very abusive, destructive things. This is a serious relationship problem that requires help. This is to me like losing it and hitting your kid. It isn't what you want to do, it is what you do at your worst. And coming here is a way to get help, learn differently, work on your behavior. I think that if a woman honestly said that she and her husband were fighting and it got out of control and he hit her... we would tell her he needed to take responsibility for his behavior and he should get help. If he doesn't do this, the relationship would be in trouble but it could be worked through. See what I mean?


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:

We used to tell all women who were hit to leave and that any violence was an abusive relationship. That model just didn't work. There are two kinds of relationships which have violence....
Fascinating, *MsMoMpls*! I didn't know this (and yes, I've been in a domestic violence support group). I asssume that there's psych studies to bear this out, then, that the one kind of violence CAN be repaired? It isn't all-or-nothing? If there's a good book on this you can recommend, would you PM me or post? My girlfriend (really, NOT me) just had her first bout with DV. Economically stuck, the usual. If there's hope for them, I'd like to pass it along.

*riotkrrn*, that's a thought-provoking analogy.

*annettemarie*,

Quote:

I don't know much about you, Seasons- how old your little one is, if you have more than one. I don't know if you have been in a situation where you have felt like spanking.
I post mostly in Single Parenting. I'm a single mom, of one toddler. No, I've never felt like spanking. I'll just leave it at that. As far as your feeling "safe," or not from me, well, we're both abuse survivors and both parents, so I can't see how I'm threatening to you. If my post pushes your buttons, I'm sorry. I haven't posted in the GD forum before, because GD is not really an issue for me; I don't spank and don't find disclipine to be a challenge in my family. I posted this thread here in the GD forum because it seemed most relevant here; if I put it in TAO it'd get moved here. I did make sure to post a separate thread with my inquiry (rather than hijacking a confessional thread), and to make sure that my topic was clearly stated in the subject so that it could be avoided by those who felt uncomfortable. That's all I can offer.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons*
Yet when I've seen moms here "confess" to spanking their kids in a crazy losing-control rage**, reactions are often sympathetic: "oh, you sound stressed, can you get more support?" and empathic: "we've all been there!" Posters suggest "getting over" this "blip" as if it won't be repeated, and they rarely suggest that the spanker should leave the household or the child.

Mothers who come to MDC and admit to having spanked are looking for help so that they don't do it again. They are not moms who think spanking is okay, they are not moms who spank often, and they are not moms who are beating their children. It's usually an isolated incident.

I ask you: would it be less hurtful to the child to be ripped away from his or her mother, to whom the child has a deep and loving bond, after a single spanking? Would it be less hurtful for the mother to leave her home, leaving her child feeling rejected and abandoned, after an isolated spanking? Most moms here would not think this is better. Most here would like to see mother and child heal their relationship and move forward.

Quote:

Yet when someone posts from the other side of the abuse, that her partner has hit her, the sympathies run the other way: "oh my gosh, hugs!" and the responses are angry and insistent: "get out of the house! You CANNOT stay with this man!" Posters will explain that someone who's hit before will NOT change, that abuse often escalates, and that no amount of "stress" or "lack of support" is an excuse for the abuser to hit. Posters also discourage (accurately, I think) the idea that counseling will help the abuser change.
I think Stafl put it best "When someone posts here that they have hit their child, and are seeking help in changing their behavior or their response to anger, they are asking for help. when a woman posts here that her partner has hit her, he is not wanting to change, does not see anything wrong with what he has done. THAT is the difference. The big difference is that in one case, the abuser realizes what they did was wrong, and they don't want to ever do it again. In the other case, the abuser justifies their actions and does not have any intention of changing. Even in spousal abuse situations, if the abusive partner wants to change, and gets the right sort of therapy, the relationship can be saved."

Quote:

(And thus I don't buy "abuse is the only pattern I know" as justification; we've all seen other patterns via TV, books and friends, and further are capable of independent thought and self-control.) Perhaps abusers of every sort are "different," unbalanced perhaps in a brain-chemical way; maybe it's a disease like alcoholism. But if so, why not a uniform, treat-as-disease-but-protect-the-victims response to all abuse?
I think annettemarie answered you best. It has been well-documented that children who are abused are _more likely_ to repeat those patterns with their own kids. Not all will go on to abuse their kids. But many will struggle with learning new ways to parent, because most of us are heavily influenced by our own childhoods. It is not at all unusual for parents to repeat in some way with their own children what was done to them. It is very difficult to overcome those patterns, and I admire all mothers who can do it-especially those who can publicly admit when they have made a mistake and ask for help.

Quote:

(**I'm not criticizing the posters who admit they used to spank as a disciplinary tool but changed to GD. Hey, we all learn and improve our parenting skills over time.)
_All_ I ever see here at MDC are mothers committed to GD.








I don't know where you get your ideas that anyone here condones spanking in any way. Even those of us who are imperfect and have had a moment where we found ourselves spanking our children are committed to GD. Making a mistake doesn't mean we're not committed to GD, it means we're merely human. We don't come here full of pride about the fact that we've spanked and looking for approval of that, we come here ashamed and looking for some help, some support, some inspiration to help ourselves get back on the right track. We know it's wrong. We're committed to learning to do better. And it's that committment, that fierce love that drives us to unlearn everything our own parents and culture have taught us about parenting, that makes us the best parents for our children.

ETA: I once thought I'd never struggle with gentleness. Up until my first child was almost three and before my other two kids were born, I had never yelled, never struggled with how to handle challenges, never spanked. I was so proud and I expected to remain as perfect as I thought I was, basking in my triumph over my mother's legacy. I had broken the chain! Conquered my demons! I was not that mother who "lost it", who handled things poorly, who was tempted to spank and to yell. I could sit back and gloat over how much better I was. It was devestating when I screwed up. I have since learned to have much more compassion for other mothers, all of them.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Having been in a domestic violence situation myself, I feel compelled to respond to this.

I'm using "he" to refer to abusers and "she" to refer to victims, just to simplify my thoughts. I'm well aware that there are women who abuse men, as well as domestic violence in homosexual relationships.

You can't tell somebody "he's a monster, you MUST leave him." It simply doesn't work. I TRIED to fix my abusive marriage- I did everything in my power to get him help, and I didn't give up on him until it was clear to me that he wasn't making any effort to change. I wasn't ready to leave him until I had figured that out for myself. Studies have shown that women who leave abusive relationships before they're truly ready are more likely to return to their abusers- which puts them in even more danger than if they had never left in the first place.

Human beings have an incredible potential for growth and change. I don't beleive that anybody is "so far gone" that they can't turn their lives around. However, people can only change when they're doing it for themselves. The pattern in abusive relationships is responsibility- the abuser is blaming the victim for his actions, and she beleives she's responsible for his actions as well. Any of these abusers COULD change if they got the right help and support and put in a tremendous amount of effort. The key is that most of them don't think they have a problem and see no reason to change.

When my husband dragged me out of he bedroom by my shoulders, he thought that I was out of line and he was doing the right thing under the circumstances- according to him, it was my fault for doing something that provoked him.

When I get angry and yell at a child (or lose my temper and hit) there's a huge difference. It isn't "I woudln't have yelled if you hadn't misbehaved," it's "I'm sorry I lost my temper, but you're still not allowed to throw spaghetti on the floor."


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

I understand what you're getting at, Seasons. There most definitely is a discrepancy. But to moratorium those posts would backfire...how is the mama supposed to learn new tools? Is she supposed to pretend she's never spanked so she can "fit in" with this amazing community where no one has discipline issues and never loses it?

An analogy, for me personally, would be depression...I struggled with PPD after dd1 for over 2 yrs. I realize that depression is becoming more "socially acceptable" or whatnot, but it's still not something I would share with everyone and their dog...if I were not able to post my struggles, how could I overcome them? If I denied that I had PPD, how could I seek treatment? If I had come here and people had said, "You know, I understand you struggle, but we don't talk about depression at MDC...we have zero-tolerance for it" where would I have gone? Would I have hid it?

Seasons, be thankful, very thankful, that you have never had the urge to hit and do not have discipline problems. That is wonderful, but IMO, unusual. Please look on the mamas who are struggling with empathy and support...maybe you feel you cannot idenitify b/c you haven't been there...that's understandable, too. I hope you would support a family who is trying to recover from alcohol or physical abuse in the same way even if you couldn't identify. There's a big, big difference between someone who is regretful of his/her actions and someone who is looking for *validation* of his/her actions.

My sending hugs to a struggling mama does not mean I condone her actions...it means that I recognize the struggle and want to assure her there are people here who can help when she is ready to accept it.


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons*
Fascinating, *MsMoMpls*! I didn't know this (and yes, I've been in a domestic violence support group). I asssume that there's psych studies to bear this out, then, that the one kind of violence CAN be repaired? It isn't all-or-nothing? .

When Men Batter Women: New Insights into Ending Abusive Relationships

by Neil Jacobson Ph.D. and John Gottman, Ph.D.

I am sharing this publicly because this is so important for people to understand. Yes, their is great research that there is a difference. To explain it as short and simple as possible.... you can measure an abuser's physical response (pulse, blood pressure, etc.) during a blow up and most abusers are highly elevated, out of control, pumped up. They can learn to control their temper. There are others- the most dangerous kind, whose blood pressure and pulse will actually slow down then they are abusing. They are in control. They are calm. They are chosing to do that they do. They are creating fear in their partners to control their partners. For the most part, they don't change because they don't have any interest in changing. The research is so much more complicated but that is my understanding in a nut shell.


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

Seasons, I have never hit my kids, but I have yelled at them. I NEVER thought I would yell or have the urge to hit my kids. Well it happened after the birth of my dd#3 when my ds#1 was almost 4 and my ds#2 had just turned two. It took me almost four years and 3 kids to feel that way, and I am so thankful I didn't have the attitude that it could never happen to me. So here I am. Still at Mothering.com having yelled at my children today and trying to find alternative ways to cope.

I'm uncomfortable with your assumption that there is some "level" of lack of support that only you know..."[check my previous posts before you try to top ME for lack of support or money]," Those of us who have been abused all have their own story and I think it's a rather slippery slope when you start that kind of oneupmanship.

To all mamas on this board who are striving to better themselves and parent in a non-violent and respectful way:







Keep coming here to get the support you need. Your ideas and experiences help me strive to be a gentle mama.


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

Oh and a special







to annettemarie. I can't wait for that board to open either. I grew up in an abusive home, too. I'm still learning and growing every day. I thought I had it all under control until my dd#3 was born, but now I need to be mindful and deliberate evey day.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I too come from an abusive past and when I was the mother of one toddler I thought I had overcome my past. I had never even raised my voice at my child and never even considered spanking. But when I had a newborn and a toddler and was getting no sleep well I snapped. Yes I have yelled at and spanked my kids. Do I regret it? Hell yah! And I apologize to them. I don't feel I deserve to be judged if I come here asking for help. I know its wrong and I'm trying. Do I beleive for a second my kids would be better of without me? No way! I am a good mom even if I struggle.


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

*MamaOui*,

Quote:

I'm uncomfortable with your assumption that there is some "level" of lack of support that only you know..."[check my previous posts before you try to top ME for lack of support or money]," Those of us who have been abused all have their own story and I think it's a rather slippery slope when you start that kind of oneupmanship.
Respectfully, you have it backwards; I was trying to "show my abuse credentials" (tm *annettemarie*) right away so I wouldn't get slammed with "oh, but you've never been there" -- in this case, stressed and with a background of abuse. I am NOT interested in an abuse competition.

Thanks, *MsMoMpls* (for the book suggestion) and others -- this has been an insightful discussion!

*candadiyank*,

Quote:

Seasons, be thankful, very thankful, that you have never had the urge to hit and do not have discipline problems. That is wonderful, but IMO, unusual. Please look on the mamas who are struggling with empathy and support...maybe you feel you cannot idenitify b/c you haven't been there...that's understandable, too.
I am truly grateful for my family's lack of difficulty in this area. I *don't* understand a situation like that *riotkrrn* mentioned; I only know abuse from a different, littler angle (i.e., I was the child-victim -- and of course I think I did nothing to provoke the abuse). So because I lack the relevant experience (of spanking), I don't post in threads on this forum. But having survived abuse, I do think about it, often, hence the pondering that led to my OP. And because I think others have relevant experiences and different, interesting viewpoints, I posted here: for a discussion, not merely just to state my own thoughts.


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

Seasons, it was clear to me that you were abused when you said, "And I've been the victim (I grew up with abuse), so I can't fathom putting *my* child in that h*ll." Which is why I'm uncomfortable with you saying don't try to top me. It reads like some sort of oneupmanship thing to me JMHO.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly*
I had never even raised my voice at my child and never even considered spanking. But when I had a newborn and a toddler and was getting no sleep well I snapped.

Heavenly, I love your post. I grew up in a supportive, caring family, but there were 4 of us and yes, my mama too, occasionally, lost it. I love her very much. I always did. I think deep inside I always understood her. And now, as a mom of two, and especially during that one toddler + one newborn phase, I understood her and loved her even more. If it can be any support for those moms that like me have occasionally lost it, well, I can say that we can be an example to our kids: that the urge that they feel to hit is normal, that other people feel the same, that it is not good, not justifiable, and it is possible to change and improve and never ever resort to that again. For the record, I never hit, but yes, I have occasionally yelled and "roughhoused" my DC (like for instance I once carried dd to her bedroom for a timeout in a rough way and another time I dragged her by her wrist)


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

sorry double post


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## Ahappymel (Nov 20, 2001)

I have made the mistake of hitting my little boy : (

But I have to admit that I don't feel attacked/judged by Season's post. I feel she makes a good point and her points certainly have me taking a good, long hard look at myself.

Mel.


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

I'm enjoying this discussion and finding it very insightful.

I have seriously thought of writing my doctoral thesis on the oppression of children, so maybe that book will get written.









I don't have a lot to add, but there is one relevant point. No one (that I have noticed) has discussed the degree of harm done. When an MDC mom loses it, as it were, and spanks her child, what I interpret this to mean is that she has hit him or her across the butt once, twice, or a handful of times. Maybe this will leave a red mark on the butt for a short while, but no bruises or the like.

What if I said that I was acting in the most exremely annoying way imaginable and, after patiently dealing with this behaviour for (I dunno, 2 months!), dh responded in a similar way -- he did something to me that caused a red mark that lasted, say, 15 minutes. He was sleep deprived, overstressed, and I was in his face acting like a complete goof and would not let up despite his nearly endless protests. Is this swat the same extent of physical abuse as that which pops to mind when we think of domestic violence? In my case, I tend to think of far more severe physical abuse than that which would leave a small red mark on the butt. If my dh did something of the sort and I knew that I had been pushing his buttons like you wouldn't believe for an extended period of time, I can imagine forgiving that. I would never, never, never say that I deserved it or that it was at all the right thing for him to do -- he was in the wrong -- just that in situations of extreme stress it is at least somewhat understandable. I also don't imagine him getting in much legal trouble over something like this -- even if it were videotaped!


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

IMO if a spouse hits their partner it is domestic violence (even if it only leaves a red mark for 15 mins.)


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

I agree with Dal that there is a matter of degree to consider. Several survivors of child abuse have posted here. I was *not* a victim of child abuse, but I was spanked occasionally (maybe 5 - 8 times in my life). My home was loving, warm and supportive. Once in a while, spankings were issued for severe infractions, but as unpleasant as they were, I don't remember ever feeling like I was in "h*ll" to us the OP's phrase. I was never frightened for my safety or felt like I needed to walk on eggshells around my parents.

That's my history, and it's pretty average for a 30-something American. I have choosen not to spank for the simple reason that I believe that hitting out of anger or in order to control is wrong. My parents were wrong to spank us. Period. But their lapses were not severe enough to leave lasting physical or emotional scars, and their love and good parenting choices were abundant salve for the occasional "red mark" in our family. I'm not saying this is how every child in my situation would have experienced things, but I don't think I'm unusual.

I understand the impulse to characterize all physical punishment, including open-handed spanking on the bottom, as abuse. It gets the attention of folks who might otherwise dismiss the issue as unimportant, or simply not think much about it at all. But, IMO, it waters down the meaning of child abuse. I would never pretend to compare my parenting struggles with those of a formerly abused person. I am sometimes tempted to spank, but I don't struggle with it often, nor does it bring up emotions from my childhood when I do struggle with it. I'm just angry and frustrated and need to regain my cool -- end of story.

I think these distinctions are at play when someone comes here admiting to spanking (i.e. bottom-swatting) and wanting to do better. If someone posted that she had lost her temper and beaten her 4 year old with a shower rod, or held her toddler's hands under scalding water, I don't care how many cyber tears she was shedding, I think nearly every respondent would be begging her to seek out professional help *immediately*. There wouldn't be much patience for her desire to just "start fresh" on her own and try again. If we knew her identity and location, some folks would even surely call CPS. There *is* a difference in degree that matters.


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:

IMO if a spouse hits their partner it is domestic violence (even if it only leaves a red mark for 15 mins.)
Well, we'd all agree on that, just as we would that "if a parent hits their child it is child violence (even if it only leaves a red mark for 15 mins.) But what this thread's about is that merely labeling it "abuse" isn't the end of the story, for the abuser OR society at large. Many posters have said here, "one spank ISN'T the end of me as a good parent," and a few posters have said that, if the abuser wants to change, one hit isn't the end of a marriage. So, yeah, both are abuse -- but THEN what? How do abusers stop? (What kind of people can stop?) Is there a difference between child and spousal abuse? Is that difference relevant to whether, and how, people can stop? For instance, a beaten wife may gain some economic power (getting a part-time job, say) and thereby enrage her husband, "earning" more abuse. Is there a possibility for changing the marriage then? Analogously, a child who's pre-verbal and physically tantrumming may be getting spanked, but as the child ages and gets more power (of mobility, physical strength, verbal skills to express feelings), the parent may have less or more of a tendency to spank.

Interesting.


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dal*
I
What if I said that I was acting in the most exremely annoying way imaginable and, after patiently dealing with this behaviour for (I dunno, 2 months!), dh responded in a similar way -- he did something to me that caused a red mark that lasted, say, 15 minutes. He was sleep deprived, overstressed, and I was in his face acting like a complete goof and would not let up despite his nearly endless protests. Is this swat the same extent of physical abuse as that which pops to mind when we think of domestic violence?

In this case, I would say that if you were knowingly trying to push your dh's buttons for two months even after he pleaded with you not to that you'd be the one subjecting him to abusive behavior (because you are an adult) and treating him with no respect. But being an adult, if you were relentlessly trying to push his buttons, then your dh could walk away from you, leave the house, go stay with a friend...but sometimes a mom can't "get away" from the button pushing. YKWIM?


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Well, I've said it before and I'll say it again- it is really rather simple to me. I'll always respond differently to a victim pleading for help and an offender pleading for help.

If a man went to a strict "non violent" board and confessed to hitting his wife and was hysterical and sad about it- I'd be much gentler than if a victim came and said "my spouse abuses me". There is such a different set of elements.

I don't think guilt fosters growth- I think guilt fosters negative energy which can lead to more abuse, so I always try to disperse guilt and encourage help & solution. The parent needs to find the trigger and focus on changing that trigger, and might even need professional help in controlling themselves. But just guiilt-mongering and feeling bad about themselves will not help IMO... and might even lead or assist in repeat offenses.

So my advice to an offender is different than my advice to a victim. I wish I had a way to get my voice heard for all the little victims of the world, I really do.


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons*
And I've been the victim (I grew up with abuse), so I can't fathom putting *my* child in that h*ll. (And thus I don't buy "abuse is the only pattern I know" as justification; we've all seen other patterns via TV, books and friends, and further are capable of independent thought and self-control.)

My problem with this is you're blaming the victim. It sounds like you're saying that if those of who've been abused ever spank or even FEEL like spanking, there's something wrong with us and making a connection to our violent childhoods is a cop-out. I'm sorry, but I don't buy that. Everyone handles and reacts to abuse differently. If you've managed to heal and become so serene that you never get angry or have the urge to hit, then I'm truly happy for you. But not all of us are there, or ever will be, and that doesn't make us bad parents.

I would never put my child through the hell I lived in either, but let's be realistic. Losing my temper and swatting her on the butt, while definitely WRONG, is NOT the same as beating her until she's unconcious or violently raping her in the middle of the night.


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

Now that the kids are fed and playing quietly, I have some more time to respond.

In my experience, abuse comes in so many different ways and the physical aspect is just the most obvious. I have to say that if my parents had talked to me with respect and happened to spank me a couple of times in my life, I would have rathered that than the years of verbal abuse, tirades, and demeaning dialogue that I endured. One of my friends was ignored and taught to stuff every feeling that he had, but he was never spanked.

On a total different train of thought, equating partner to partner interaction and parent to child interaction doesn't make sense to me. Button pushing is developementally appropriate for children. In fact, if my children never tried to test their boundries, I'd wonder why.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I think we respond differently because the dynamics are different. A mama is under a different sort of pressure than a spouse. Mama is responsible to guide and protect and nurture -- and is often with her needy kiddos 24/7. And we reach a snapping point.

A spouse should not be in that position, unless married to a someone who is severely disabled. A spouse should not be feeling responsible to guide and protect -- or spend 24/7 attempting to meet his partner's needs. And in domestic abuse situations, he usually isn't in this position.

I'm not saying the mama who reaches a breaking point is "excused" from responibility. She has still hurt her child. But her situation is more understandable. The implication is not that she is a dangerous bully, but that she is stretched to thin and with too few resources. The abusive spouse is usually more of the dangous bully sort, kwim?

Sort of off topic -- but I think this explains why it is so important for a parent to experience a paradigmn shift on a mental level when they make the decision to abandon spanking as a valid tool. I think it is important to mentally abandon the belief that we are responsible to "control" our children 100% of the time. Because this belief leads us more quickly to a breaking point when we fail.

"Control" is a major element of spousal abuse to. The difference is that parents do need to have some level of control in order to protect and guide our children - and finding a healthy balance is very tricky sometimes.


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

Thanks for your post, Mamduck. I couldn't get the ideas that you wrote from my brain to the keyboard. :LOL


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

I agree that if my partner left a red mark on me -- or even if he hit me or pushed me and it didn't end in a mark -- that it would constitute domestic violence. I also fit hitting a child into this category. My point still remains -- that this is on the less harmful side of what we usually think of when we discuss domestic violence. Similarly, if I lashed out verbally at my husband -- e.g., you have been so useless lately! What is wrong with you! -- this would be wrong and would count as verbal abuse. It certainly isn't the worst thing I might have said or done and it isn't likely to interest the authorities in the slightest. A complaint about this would only annoy them, and it probably should as there are more serious situations to respond to.

My example of being annoying for months on end wasn't very good as it introduced too many factors that are not relevant to the situation at hand. What if it were changed to an adult with severe mental handicaps so that s/he was of the approximate mental abilities as a 5 year old? Most would consider swatting this person as completely disgusting -- including those who have no qualms with spanking a child. Why? I think it may come down to the low social standing of children and a failure to genuinely conceptualize and relate to them as people. (I know that the social standing of mentally impaired people is also low, which leads to other interesting thoughts.) My aunt STILL refers to my almost 1 year old son as an it!!! I once heard a father refer to his own, similarly aged child, as an it! I think many people think of infants and young children as of lesser status than adults and older children, as though they have to start acting like adults before they are worthy of the same social standing and respect.

This is not to say that I think these thoughts are at the surface. Just about any parent will tell you that they see their child as an equal. I think that, like sexism and racism, it's engrained deep into our thought processes and weaved seamlessly throughout the social fabric in which we live. To change this requires a heightened consciousness that first identifies the problem as well as its roots and enablers. This done, it requires various means by which to achieve social change. These are many and different approaches will work for different people. One such approach is the creation of alternative worldviews that offer different, egalitarian, ways to conceptualize children and to share our space with them. I think that MDC is already one such approach. These ideas should be expanded on and shared. It is not just to ignore maltreatment that we see or hear about, even if it is socially condoned. Children need us to speak out for them as their voices count for so little, if they are heard at all. This topic needs to be discussed loud and clear. The more scholars that examine it the better. The more publications and public presentations the better. It does appear that it is not taken seriously at present because our old ways of thinking are preventing it from showing itself for what it really is, which is to say that it is on a par with the same act committed against an adult (if not worse given the child's defenseless).

How adults talk to children is also relevant here. Even usually polite and respectful people can often speak to children in the most degrading of ways without catching on that there is something wrong with this. My father, e.g., used to bellow to us something along the lines of "Get you asses in here!" and then scream at us to search for the remote control. He'd also walk into the room and change channels on us mid-show and expect us to walk away without complaint. I think the entire way that children are treated as inferior is relevant to this discussion.

I also think that part of the rationale you are looking for has to do with the kind of beings that children are taken to be. I think that to get from this description, whatever it may be, to a claim that it is o.k. to hit them treats their difference as a sign of inferiority, or at least is based on a faulty, oppressive mode of thinking. I'm sure it's quite similar if not exactly the same as the rationale that used to be taken for granted and used to justify the supposed acceptability of a husband doling out corporeal punishment on his wife. Unfortunately this is still considered acceptable by many people.

My mid-day political rant was fun to write. Perhaps I should do my dissertation on this. As it stands I'm writing it on the connections between the oppression of animals and that of women, which is extremely relevant to this discussion.


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

"My example of being annoying for months on end wasn't very good as it introduced too many factors that are not relevant to the situation at hand. What if it were changed to an adult with severe mental handicaps so that s/he was of the approximate mental abilities as a 5 year old?" _by dal_

Actually I thought your example was a good one. I have had weeks of hard days with my kids due to developemental changes or transitions in their lives (such as moving).

As far as your example of caring for an adult with severe mental disabilities, I feel the situation is different. Is this person my child? If so, then if I still was hitting/spanking (even if it was occasionally) at that point, I think I would have gotten help years before to not hit. I think there is a huge difference between a new mother with small children and someone who has been parenting for years.

" I also think that part of the rationale you are looking for has to do with the kind of beings that children are taken to be. I think that to get from this description, whatever it may be, to a claim that it is o.k. to hit them treats their difference as a sign of inferiority, or at least is based on a faulty, oppressive mode of thinking. I'm sure it's quite similar if not exactly the same as the rationale that used to be taken for granted and used to justify the supposed acceptability of a husband doling out corporeal punishment on his wife. Unfortunately this is still considered acceptable by many people." _by dal_

I, personally, have never claimed it's okay to hit a child. I, personally, have never hit my children. But I still can understand the urge to hit. I think my children are full and beautiful beings that lack the life experience and perspective of an adult. And I do not think of my children as inferior people, but they are completely dependent on me and this is not the dynamic between me any mentally healthy adults that I know.


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## Raven67 (Apr 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
Ok- just to throw another piece into the mix. We used to tell all women who were hit to leave and that any violence was an abusive relationship. That model just didn't work. There are two kinds of relationships which have violence. One is a very abusive, destructive pattern where the abuser is dangerous and actually in control of his (yes- usually his) behavior. These relationships are not likely to be repaired. These relationships are very dangerous. And if this kind of abuse were happening to a child, we would certainly be talking about calling CPS, protecting the child from a dangerous and destructive parent. The other kind of relationship violence is tough to explaing. It is about one partner (and it is often women) losing control, not being able to handle their anger and striking out verbally, emotionally and physically. Men are more likely to hit, women more likely to say very abusive, destructive things. This is a serious relationship problem that requires help. This is to me like losing it and hitting your kid. It isn't what you want to do, it is what you do at your worst. And coming here is a way to get help, learn differently, work on your behavior. I think that if a woman honestly said that she and her husband were fighting and it got out of control and he hit her... we would tell her he needed to take responsibility for his behavior and he should get help. If he doesn't do this, the relationship would be in trouble but it could be worked through. See what I mean?


I totally agree, the situation of family violence is very complicated and nuanced. Of course, it is true that "no one deserves to be hurt," but you can't make blanket statements about family violence, whether it's spousal or child, unless you are really close to the situation. There are many different patterns of abuse in families. ...I have worked as a therapist with individuals and couples. I agree there is a "type" of man who is a serious, dangerous abuser: He is imature, controlling, manipulative, and tends to lash out in ever increasing fits of violence to control his partner. Afterward, he may be contrite, or blame her for the violence, it doesn't matter. When I see that pattern happening, I tell my friend or client to get the hell away from this guy, it's not acceptable, and he's not going to change. Of course, they often can't or won't take this advice. But, there are other patterns of family violence. There are plenty of dysfunctional families in which the female partner screams, badgers, curses, throws things, pushes, etc, along with the male partner...the male may become physical only after being pushed or hit by his partner. So, this couple is "having a fight" or perhaps abusing each other, but it is not a simple situation of an abusive, bullying male. These are only a couple of examples of possible scenerios involved in domestic violence. There is no 'one size fits all' solution to it. If a friend described the last scenerio, I would say she and her partner are both crazy and need counseling and anger management. Or, perhaps the relationship is just not good for either of them, and they should go their separate ways. But, I wouldn't paint the woman as the victim of her male partner.

With children, it is also complicated. I don't approve of spanking, and don't support or condone it. But, I just don't see a few open-handed swats on the butt in the same catagory as a beating which results in serious injury like bruising, cuts, welts, etc.....I guess if a friend or client said her partner was swatting her on the butt or arm when he was frustrated, I would want to help them stop the behavior. If she said said he was punching her in the mouth, I would say, "Get out now!" It is a different scenerio. I don't think the anti-spanking movement makes any progress by equating spanking with a punch in the mouth. I respect those who disagree, I just don't see it that way.


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

"As far as your example of caring for an adult with severe mental disabilities, I feel the situation is different. Is this person my child? If so, then if I still was hitting/spanking (even if it was occasionally) at that point, I think I would have gotten help years before to not hit. I think there is a huge difference between a new mother with small children and someone who has been parenting for years." by MamaOui

I don't have the entirety of this discussion in my mind, but I don't think that how long one has been a parent is relevant -- or that it is only relevant in a minor way. Is it better for the mother of a newborn to hit her child than the father of a toddler? What about a father whose 4 year old child is "acting out" in a new way that really pushes his buttons? Before this new behaviour, the father had no urges to hit the child and refraining from doing so took no effort at all. What about a caregiver? Is it any better if s/he spanks my child just because s/he lacks the experience that I have? Same with the parent or caregiver of a mentally disabled adult. Perhaps that person had never had any urges before then -- or was able to fight them off. Things change.

The act of hitting another person is the same act whether it is the first time or the 50th. In regards to the act itself, it is equally bad in both cases. Someone who has hit a child (or whoever) 50 times is more culpable because s/he has committed the same crime 50 times and because didn't get help earlier, but this doesn't take away from the fact that the person who "only" hit her child once has done something terrible and inexcusable. I guess I'm not fully seeing why you're differentiating between repeat offenders and people who "slip up" once. I do agree that the former are worse than the latter, of course, but I'm not sure why this is relevant. Not to say that it isn't! I'm feeling tired and don't have the energy to re-read a lot of this discussion.

Things change all the time for parents. The urge to hit ones child may never be an issue for some. They are lucky. For others it may come and go. It may come for the first time when the child does something outrageous at 8. For a child who is still dependent as an adult, the urge may first come when s/he is 30. In short, I'm not fully seeing how inexperience with parenting is comparable to inexperience with controlling violent urges. As other respondents have indicated, violent urges may first surface years after one first becomes a parent, and the severity of these urges fluctuate over time.


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

"I don't have the entirety of this discussion in my mind, but I don't think that how long one has been a parent is relevant -- or that it is only relevant in a minor way. Is it better for the mother of a newborn to hit her child than the father of a toddler? What about a father whose 4 year old child is "acting out" in a new way that really pushes his buttons? Before this new behaviour, the father had no urges to hit the child and refraining from doing so took no effort at all. What about a caregiver? Is it any better if s/he spanks my child just because s/he lacks the experience that I have? Same with the parent or caregiver of a mentally disabled adult. Perhaps that person had never had any urges before then -- or was able to fight them off. Things change. " _by dal_

My understanding of your example was that you were refering to a parent who had been hitting their adult mentally handicapped child since childhood, so that it why what I said was relevant to that situation. None of it is _okay_ with me, but a pattern of hitting/spanking is entiely different from a mom who says, "I've spanked a couple of times. I don't want to. What can I do instead?" No matter at what age the spanking starts. I wasn't clear in my post I should have said *I think there is a huge difference between a parent who spanks their small children a couple of times and someone who has been parenting that way for years* but I said *Is this person my child? If so, then if I still was hitting/spanking (even if it was occasionally) at that point, I think I would have gotten help years before to not hit. I think there is a huge difference between a new mother with small children and someone who has been parenting for years.*

"I guess I'm not fully seeing why you're differentiating between repeat offenders and people who "slip up" once. I do agree that the former are worse than the latter, of course, but I'm not sure why this is relevant. Not to say that it isn't! I'm feeling tired and don't have the energy to re-read a lot of this discussion. " _by dal_










IMO, There is a huge difference between someone who has a "slip up" and someone who hits as a tool for discipline/control.

"Things change all the time for parents. The urge to hit ones child may never be an issue for some. They are lucky. For others it may come and go. It may come for the first time when the child does something outrageous at 8. For a child who is still dependent as an adult, the urge may first come when s/he is 30. In short, I'm not fully seeing how inexperience with parenting is comparable to inexperience with controlling violent urges. As other respondents have indicated, violent urges may first surface years after one first becomes a parent, and the severity of these urges fluctuate over time." _by dal_

I see what you are saying and I agree with that. And in any of these cases, if it was an isolated incident, I would look at it in an entirely different way than I would if this happened repeatedly. I'm not necessarily thinking about the inexperience of a parent being the factor as much as I am the lack of impulse control young children have. I see a lot of spanking as discipline during the toddler years and as one mama pointed out she had the urge to hit while being kicked at during a diaper change. Once again, in a relationship with an older child or an adult, I don't think you'd see biting, kicking, hitting, in a normal situation.


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:

I'm writing it on the connections between the oppression of animals and that of women, which is extremely relevant to this discussion.
Unrelated....just wanted to let you know that is a great point, one, as a staunch animal activist, I have made often to people...usually in response to "what does animal activism have to do with feminism???"

It was actually a topic I considered doing my thesis on, among other things--as I went to school for Sociology, but got a bit off track.

As far as the domestic violence/child violence thing---I completely agree with you it has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that we see other adults as equals and children as inferior. I feel you were also correct in that this assumption is often veiled, but like racism or sexism, if you are around someone long enough, their racism will come out even if they are friends with people of color or whatever--just by their veiled comments and views on certain things. Similarly, I believe people can love thier children, do right by their children for the most part, even advocate for children in other areas, while at the same time, somewhere inside them believe that children are inferior beings who need to be controlled and the like--which is why they are not easy to spot outright and don't often say outright "Children are inferior!!"

My Mother and I have discussions about this often, and I never hesitate to bring up the fact that she would be willing to do to a child things she would NEVER even CONSIDER doing to her dogs (who are her "babies")---such as tobasco on a child's tongue for saying a bad word (I know dogs can't talk but you know what I mean), spanking, facing a corner for time out, etc....and she can't seem to see how the concept is exactly the same--that if she wouldn't be willing to treat a dog that way, why is it acceptable to treat a child that way?

It all goes back to the idea that children are inferior beings. Of course, to her, animals are inferior beings too, after all, she can be eating a steak while talking about how much of an "animal lover" she is....so I won't begin to even unlock the mystery of why some animals are worthy of love and why some are worthy of torture---the same paradox is why someone can be waxing poetic about how much they value and love their child over coffee with their friend as their child has their nose up against a wall, crying and shamed because they were *naughty* or whatever. I truly believe too, that the said person HONESTLY believes and DOES love and value their child---but why then do they feel justified and okay with spanking or shaming or whatever....same way my mom can eat a steak...deep down to most people, even subconciously and for whatever reason (society, their childhood, etc) animals and children alike are inferior.

Why did we own slaves? Opress women? Slaughter the Jews in WWII? Sit back and watch Rwanda and Sudan happen with no intervention whatsoever (as a government--I realize Joe and Jane Amercian can't stop Sudan by himself). Admittedly *extreme* examples, but again, directly related to some people in power, or "control", viewing these people as inferior, and by society for the most part, accepting that they were. To digress for a moment, that is the main reason this is perpetuated too--even if the *urge* to spank is there.-----On urges for a minute...if my husband were to be honest with you, and most spouses even..though my husband is the nicest, most gentle, kind person in the world...he will admit he has had the "urge" to smack me different times due to my sometimes being SO hard to talk to when I get going (in arguements) and frustration and sometimes saying really mean things to him (in the distant past)....He's not a jerk for that...I myself have had the "urge" to smack him different times when I have been SO pissed at something in particular---why have we NEVER hit eachother and why am I completely confident that we never will? One, because we love and respect eachother of course...but secondly, and bigger I think, is because it would NOT BE TOLERATED---by either of us, but by society as a whole---So I don't think you are a bad parent if you have the "urge" to spank out of frustration or whatever, actions are what matter ultimately, and I don't even think you are a bad parent if you *slip up* and spank...but along those lines, I wouldn't think my husband was a bad person or husband overall if he ever slapped me....and I would still know he loved me and over the years did a lot of kind things for me, however, I wouldn't stick around to find out what happened next. Plain and simple, it is not tolerated. Difference is though, I am capable of leaving, chilren aren't. I am capable of rationalizing that it ISN'T me, that he DID slip up, that it WAS out of frustration and not out of cruelty (even though I would still divorce him)...children can't leave and they can't rationalize that until they are much, much older---but again, I am still, at nearly 28 trying to heal from the "spankings" I got, and they never "left a mark" either.....

Spousal abuse in most of society, is not tolerated (at least on the surface but that is a whole new thread!)...people look down on it, they frown upon it, they don't condone or accept it. Now, of course people still hit their spouses in the privacy of their homes, and some might still hit their children---but if spanking wasn't accepted so widely, you would NEVER see a parent dragging their crying child roughly by the arm out of a store while yelling at them---it would shock you just as much as if you saw a man doing that to a woman--but it doesn't shock us. Even most of the STAUNCHEST anti-spankers among us, if honest with themselves, would admit it isn't shocking to them because it is status quo....NOT that it isn't upsetting, NOT that it doesn't piss us off, NOT that we wouldn't (and sometimes do) say something to the parent--but it simply isn't shocking to the point where you would call the police because hey, the parent was just dragging them by their arm, they weren't like *beating* them or anything---I myself am guilty of this too (not the dragging, the witnessing) because I would call someone if I saw a man doing that to a woman, but not a parent to a child---why? truthfully? Mostly because I know the police wouldn't do a damn thing and scold me for calling "for no reason".... I digress...

I could go on forever due to my personal interest in this, as well as my study in Sociology, but I won't...lol

It DOES come down to control. It DOES come down to societal acceptance. It has everything to do with seeing children as inferior as opposed to equals. Just to touch on that point, people will argue "then why can't children drive cars if they are so equal??"...Which to me is a silly, ridiculous arguement...Of course to a certain degree we are obliged to protect or *control* certain things our children do or don't do..there are restrictions to what is safe/suggested/healthy for a child to participate in or not, but when I say equal...I mean that children deserve to be seen as COMPLETELY equal in EVERY way human rights wise. They deserve AS MUCH if not more protection, consideration, advocacy etc if nothing else but because they are much more helpless than most capable adults with all their functions about them...I CAN see my child as an equal human being without condoning her knocking back a few beers at 3 years old---there is a big difference...
I only mention that because it seems to be a big arguement with people I discuss these things with. I always get the "if children are SO equal, why don't we let them drive!!!" type comments and it infuritates me!!

Okay, I am done rambling on!


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

I am trying to digest your post and think about it our veggie baby, but this caught my eye:

"Now, of course people still hit their spouses in the privacy of their homes, and some might still hit their children---but if spanking wasn't accepted so widely, you would NEVER see a parent dragging their crying child roughly by the arm out of a store while yelling at them-"

Have you ever been in a situation where you had a baby in a sling up to her neck (literally) in poop, a cooperative 4 year old, and a tantruming 2 year old all while you have a cart full of groceries that you haven't paid for yet, but you just spent an hour shopping for? If so, then maybe you would be seen dragging the tantruming 2 year old out of the store after trying to ride out the tantrum. That happened to me. To be fair, I didn't yell, but I had to get my ds out of the store somehow. How would you have handled it?


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

I try to be sympathetic to the pressures of Mothers and of course, some of what I say is general which I would expect people to understand--while your situation above was conditional to a very, very specific and hopefully very rare situation.

I am not denying I may have handled it similarly. Is it wrong to drag a child? Yes. Completely. That doesn't change for me.

I use this arguement often. To me, murder is wrong. Taking of a human life is wrong, in any circumstance it is wrong. Under my belief system it is a sin. Now, if someone broke into my house and tried to hurt me or my family, would I hesitate to kill them to preserve our lives? Not for a second. Would it be justified? Well, no court would convict me. Would I feel bent out of shape forever over it? Probably not. Do I think God would "punish" me for it? I believe God is wise and would understand why I felt I had to take someone's life.
Would it be wrong to me to have murdered someone? Yes, because to me, the taking of a life, any life, is wrong. It is murder, no matter how justified or whatever. Incidentally, this is the exact reason why it is MANDATORY for police officers to recieve psychological counseling after shooting someone dead--even in completely "justified" situations.

Okay, extreme in comparison to what you mentioned, but I was just illustrating that I believe hitting is wrong. Under any circumstance. Dragging is wrong, under any circumstances. It doesn't imply you are evil or horrible or a bad Mother, it is simply how I feel.
The same way I probably wouldn't fault someone for stealing food to feed their family (out of necessity etc), but I believe stealing is wrong. To me though, there is no justification to hitting a child...dragging...well, I wasn't there, I didn't exactly see how you handled your child or whatever...but I stand by my position.

Hope that helps.


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## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

I think that spanking is abuse. It doesn't make a difference if you lose your temper or not. In fact it is worse to do when you lose your temper because you teach your child not to hit unless they lose their temper. In an adult relationship you do not get off easy just because you lost your temper and hit someone, so why should you get off easy for hitting your child who is smaller, weaker, less emotionally stable, and more impressionable than you? Just because society pressures collide on you to do it doesn't mean it is okay if you lose your temper first. I am sure that there are many societal pressures each of us ignore that we would not even consider just because we could blame it on our emotions. If you lose your control enough to hit you need to evaluate the stressors that cause you to lose control and you need to seek help, but you do not need or deserve sympathy. The one you abuse is the one that deserves all the sympathy.


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katallen*
If you lose your control enough to hit you need to evaluate the stressors that cause you to lose control and you need to seek help,











Quote:


Originally Posted by *katallen*
but you do not need or deserve sympathy. The one you abuse is the one that deserves all the sympathy.

This is where you lose me. How is that productive or how will that help someone who has come here and said "I spanked. I feel awful. What can I do so that won't happen again?" How will lack of empathy and understanding promote the change and shift towards GD?

I have never hit my kids, but they have hit each other. I give them both my sympathy and understanding when something like that happens. They both feel horribly, but alienating the hitter would do nothing productive to promote a healthy relationship bewteen my sons.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

katallen,

When one of our children hits another, there is no question that the child's act of hitting is wrong. However, when the child hits we respond with compassion. We recognize that the child is perhaps under stress and thus has less control over their reactions, or that the child has not yet mastered the coping skills necessary to moderate their reactions, or that the child does not have a clear understanding of what a more appropriate action would be.

Yes, adults are older and have more experience but many, many parents did not learn effective methods of managing their emotions as children. Many parents never learned to recognize or accept their emotions as children. Many parents find themselve at a point in their lives where they are overwhelmed by tremendous stress and thus aren't coping as well as they otherwise might. Why would we not offer the same compassion and gentle guidance to these people that we would, as a matter of course, offer to our children as they learn?

It is possible to acknowledge a person's hardship, lack of resources or support, or lack of knowledge or skills, and to understand how those issues affect their actions without excusing their behavior or saying their behavior is okay.

Having compassion for someone doesn't excuse their behavior or make it right, but it is compassion that allows us to help others do better. And it is in helping parents do better that we do the most to help children.


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

I know you wren't quoting me, but I just want to clarify, I don't believe people who spank in a RARE occasion aren't deserving of sympathy...

For instance, even if a man, say, hit his spouse, one time and was broken up about it and completely freaked and upset and NEVER wanted to do it again and asked for help or whatever---it isn't productive to drive him into the ground about it (even though I would leave personally, it is not tolerated even once)...
I think you can say to someone---"wow, that was REALLY wrong and not AT ALL the appropriate way to handle something"...and still add " but I am sorry that you felt so much anger/pressure/frustration/out of control to feel you had to do that. That is a shame...how can we help?"

That is of course, under rare, rare, one time thing type situations...chronic hitters of anyone at any age or in any relationship I have NO sympathy for...because um, how badly do you really want to change if you are committing the same act over and over?


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

I'm still tired -- it's been a tiring week. I just want to say that MamaOui, I think we agree on everything, or at least I can't tell what we disagree on.

Ourveggiebaby -- great points!


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Just wanted to pop in and say I am so impressed when we can talk about this so calmly and deeply. It is such a rough topic and complicated by so many veriables.

One thought- I agree that if a adult hits their partner it is domestic abuse but I don't think that I would necessarily want to police or the courts involved in my marriage. This doesn't mean I condone the violence, it means that I believe in my ability to handle it better than the government would. Of course, if my child gets hit, they aren't in a position to handle it themselves and for so many reasons, we can't trust families to always handle things in the best interests of a child. This is why if I believe a child is being abused, I am legally mandated to report but if a woman is being abused, I can't. Children require the protection of our society, even sometimes from their parents. So the complication for me is if I label an incident abuse, I must report which invites a whole slew of other problems into the family. Abuse has legal conotations and I can't put an occassional spanking into the abuse column because it would put me into a position of reporting so many parents who I believe are better able to manage thier families than the government is.


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## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
katallen,

Yes, adults are older and have more experience but many, many parents did not learn effective methods of managing their emotions as children. Many parents never learned to recognize or accept their emotions as children. Many parents find themselve at a point in their lives where they are overwhelmed by tremendous stress and thus aren't coping as well as they otherwise might. Why would we not offer the same compassion and gentle guidance to these people that we would, as a matter of course, offer to our children as they learn?

It is possible to acknowledge a person's hardship, lack of resources or support, or lack of knowledge or skills, and to understand how those issues affect their actions without excusing their behavior or saying their behavior is okay.

Having compassion for someone doesn't excuse their behavior or make it right, but it is compassion that allows us to help others do better. And it is in helping parents do better that we do the most to help children.

Mothers need compassion and guidance when they say they are stressed and have little resources and not much parenting knowledge. They do not need compassion when they hit their child. Every mother goes through stress and many mothers have very little resources and still manage to not hit. Using stress as an excues to justify hitting and then recieving compassion for hitting just reinforces hitting. It is like saying that we don't believe in hitting children but if you are stressed out and lose control you can feel free to hit them until the stress goes away.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Never mind.


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

*


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katallen*
Using stress as an excues to justify hitting and then recieving compassion for hitting just reinforces hitting. It is like saying that we don't believe in hitting children but if you are stressed out and lose control you can feel free to hit them until the stress goes away.

1) No one here has said that stress is an excuse to justify hitting. Everyone here agrees that hitting is wrong. Myself included.

2) Having compassion is not the same as excusing, justifying, or approving of hitting. I have compassion for my children when they hit, and I am certainly not approving of or justifying their act of hitting. Same thing applies to adults. I can certainly say "Wow, you're having a hard time. I understand, but hitting hurts kids and I think there's a better way. How can I help you find a better way?" or"You seem overwhelmed and I'd like to help you find a gentler way to deal with both your kids and yourself, because I think that hitting your kids is hurtful to both them and you. What can I do to help you so that you?" without implying that hitting kids is okay. I think that's compassionate to both the parent who has hit their child and to the child, and that a compassionate response is more likely to actually be effective in helping a parent stop hitting.

3) The idea that showing compassion in response to hitting just reinforces hitting is the very same logic that parents who spank use to justify spanking and to dismiss gentle discipline as ineffective. We deny that logic when spanking parents use it to justify spanking, why would we use that same logic when it comes to how we respond to adults who hit?


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
Just wanted to pop in and say I am so impressed when we can talk about this so calmly and deeply. It is such a rough topic and complicated by so many veriables.

One thought- I agree that if a adult hits their partner it is domestic abuse but I don't think that I would necessarily want to police or the courts involved in my marriage. This doesn't mean I condone the violence, it means that I believe in my ability to handle it better than the government would. Of course, if my child gets hit, they aren't in a position to handle it themselves and for so many reasons, we can't trust families to always handle things in the best interests of a child. This is why if I believe a child is being abused, I am legally mandated to report but if a woman is being abused, I can't. Children require the protection of our society, even sometimes from their parents. So the complication for me is if I label an incident abuse, I must report which invites a whole slew of other problems into the family. Abuse has legal conotations and I can't put an occassional spanking into the abuse column because it would put me into a position of reporting so many parents who I believe are better able to manage thier families than the government is.

totally off topic, or maybe not... when I was being abused by my first husband, and I called the police, they threatened to take *me* to jail unless I had broken bones or was bleeding profusely. Honest. You can't rely on the person being abused to advocate for themselves, because it is the nature of abuse that the abuser is in such control over [his] partner that [she] justifies the abuse, or believes she deserves it, or plain won't admit it's really abuse. So the system is set up to protect the abusive partner, because it is very rare that the one being abused would stand up for [her]self. The abuse has a built-in self-protection system because that it's all about the control rather than the hitting. A person who is being manipulated to such an extent that they get physically assaulted (repeatedly, even) is not capable of standing up and speaking out and asking for help (ask me how I know). The same thing happens to children who are violently disciplined on a regular basis. They learn to accept being hit, even to the extent that they feel they deserve it for whatever reason (ask me how I know about that, too).

No, I don't think these families are able to work through their problems without some serious therapy (for the abusive person). But if the abuser doesn't admit there's any abuse happening, nothing will change. You can't leave it up to them to work it out themselves. Somebody needs to step in and put an end to it!


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## tricia80 (Oct 28, 2003)

i would not judge a mama who has "slipped" and spanked...neither would i hurt or attack someone who has been abused...

personally i find the holier than though attitudes ppl these days have on these boards sick....

unless ur perfect no one has the right to attack another person.. if someone knows they are wrong and admit it.. shaming them does no good... and shaming a woman who is scared to leave her abusive partner does no good either... and u dont know how hard it is to leave an abusive relationship unless you been there...


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## NancyinNY (Mar 15, 2005)

I think that for all the differences of opinion we see here, one thing we can agree on is that this is a very, very complex issue. I myself feel extremely conflicted about this issue, especially after reading all the posts. As a child from an extensively abusive background (and I think it's important to say here that as can be common, my parents will only admit to have mildly disciplined us on a few occasions when in fact they beat us black and blue with a black leather belt--minimising their abuse), and as a parent who has never hit her kid but has been in the maelstrom of physical violence both professionally and personally for so long that I feel like I've seen too much, I can say that the nuances and multiplicities of these experiences we are all having are staggering. Okay, too long of a sentence.

A couple weeks ago, my daughter Frances was having a meltdown in her bedroom, and she and I were on her bed. She started hitting me with extreme anger--the first time it's ever happened (she's 3), actually physically hurting me--and this from a generally sunny, mild mannered non-violent chid who is considered very well-behaved at her Montessori preschool. For a couple minutes I went through all the right things, talking to her about her emotions, encouraging her to use her words, beat a pillow, etc. Nothing was working. Finally I just gave up. Did I hit her? No. Actually, I ended up doing the same thing I did when my parents used to beat me--I covered my head with my hands and basically just tried to protect myself. And I called for help so Don, my husband, came running, and so I escaped the situation, somewhat. He very effectively and calmly (and non-violently) got Franny to settle down and chill out. But it was tough for me because I had flashed back to being abused as a child and reacted very passively. What if I had been alone? What if I had been a single parent? What if it happens again?

The thing that we teach Frances, which I also teach all the kids at the preschool where I work, is that hitting is a choice. If we are teaching them that, then it is true for us as well. The writer from Mpls (sorry I forgot your user name) was delineating 2 kinds of domestic violence. I feel that there are more than two; I'm not a therapist but I volunteered at for two years at one of the top DV shelters in the country, and had many hours of training (not the same as CSW or PhD, I know) from some great DV counselors. Not to mention growing up in a DV household and dealing with my sister's DV situations.

Hitting is always a choice. Sal Severe, who's a therapist and educator, wrote a book called "How to Behave so Your Preschooler Will, Too!" (Also, one for kids in general) and he has a whole chapter on spanking. One of the moms in his workshop kept telling him she couldn't help spanking her kid, it was just her snapping, she'd lose it. He asked her, Would you spank your kid in public? Of course not, she replied. Would you do it in front of your mother-in-law? No, she replied. She came to see the spanking is a choice.

Physical violence toward children is acceptable because it's hidden, and because children have few if any legal rights. They can't vote or own property. Legally their parents "own" them and are legally responsible for them until then. People without legal rights or voices to loudly proclaim their exploitation or abuse are the most vulnerable: the aged (elder abuse, which is rampant), illegal aliens, prisoners, people who are mentally or physically disabled. Why would you hit your kid for pissing you off, but if you were in the office and your boss made you angry, you wouldn't hit him/her? Because you can get away with it. Women were beaten with impunity before they had legal rights, and somewhat less so now that we can vote. Child abuse is mostly in the home, behind closed doors, it's rarely public, and people look the other way (I'm sure several of my teachers saw my bruises and just didn't want to deal with it--this is before mandatory reporting). And for those folks who talk about hitting once, I dare you to find a grown up who was only spanked once as a child. Granted, there's a big difference between a few times and a lot. But when is it only once?

People who hit their kids generally do it because they feel like they're out of resources (and please consider reading the Severe book for good ideas about other options besides hitting--you kind of need a parental "toolbox" for these situations). It's disempowering for everyone. I personally feel extremely passionate about the wellbeing of children and get very upset if I see one being neglected or yelled at or treated in a disrespectful way (something my therapist and I are working on!). Today I was driving past a construction site one block from my house when I saw and heard a small child crying and wandering around in the area. She was dirty, had no mittens or hat on (it was cold and snowy), her snow boots were on the wrong feet, she had a terrible cough, her jacket was unzipped, and her clothing was dirty and ripped. I tried to find an adult at the construction site, and knocked on the door of the nearest house (opening it, I found what was essentially a garbage house), no adult. I called the police, and told them to send Child Protective Services. A officer showed up, with CPS on the way, and a few minutes later a man came out of the house under construction. Turns out it was his 3yo daughter. He sent her to the garbage house to go to the bathroom by herself. This was a good 20 minutes after I found her. After talking to him about the inappropriateness of having his daughter spending her days at an outdoor construction site in the middle of the winter, the officer and I tried to find out what had happened (difficult to tell). Was I wrong to call 911? Would CPS come in and rip that house apart and put the child in foster care? Was it a loving family with no daycare options who happened to have different hygiene levels? Was I acting hopelessly bourgeois for being upset because I felt she needed a bath and her hair washed? I don't know. And this is a child who probably wasn't even technically being physically abused. But I still feel I did what I needed to do, and grieve for that child, who wasn't in a warm place with clean clothing, a coloring book and some crayons (not to mention an actual grown up providing supervision), but rather was wandering about in the snow by a backhoe and 4 foot deep trenches. I've gone on for too long. Thanks for letting me talk. Mothering Moms are great!


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

I think maybe the problem is that there is a tendency to view people one-dimensionally, judging them by one or two actions, and ignoring the whole rest of their humanity. I've been guilty of it myself. I think we all have at some point. But you know, there are so many reasons a parent might hit a child and I think that in most cases the reason is not that the parent is evil. I've said before and I'll say it again, the biggest reason for a parent hitting a child whether occasionally or habitually is lack of internal and/or external resources. I will not judge someone for making a mistake. There but for the grace of g-d go I.

Judging a parent and attacking them doesn't help their child. If you can step into the parent's reality and understand what's happening, just as you would for your own child, maybe you can find a way to help. A little humility helps too. None of us is perfect. None of us has lived the whole of our adult lives without hurting someone in some way, whether we meant to or not, whether we realize it or not.

Hugs to all the moms who struggle. Sometimes it really is a struggle to remain gentle.


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

Wow, *Nanc*y, what an amazing, thought-provoking post.









And yeah

Quote:

I think that for all the differences of opinion we see here, one thing we can agree on is that this is a very, very complex issue.
Agreed.


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## sarajane (Oct 20, 2004)

I just wanted to say that I don't think it right to compare spanking to spousal abuse or even to child abuse. Some of these women (and children) have been beaten to a pulp practically killed. Comparing that to a pop on the bottom to correct a child who is doing wrong and barely knows what the word no means is just wrong IMO. I'm not taking sides on whether or not you should spank your child or anything. I just believe this comparison to be utterly offensive to someone who has endured severe abuse in any fashion.

I don't want to debate this, I simply felt the need to put that thought out there. When I saw this thread the comparison upset me so and I thought about whether or not to say this or to keep it to myself. I felt I should say something. I hope yall understand.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Instead of judgemental, self-righteous posts, what I would love to see here are solutions. If we aren't supposed to be compassionate and help mamas do better, then what are we supposed to do instead?????

ETA: I think the only purpose this thread has served is to make mothers who have made the mistake of spanking feel unwelcome in gentle discipline.


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## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

I think that in order to help mothers not spank when they are stressed out there should be a forum specifically about being stressed out and near the edge of losing it. It would be nice to have a place to contact a professional for some generic help on how to reduce stress too. Maybe doing a survey to see what resources have helped other mothers not lose control and what resources mothers who have lost control would have liked could help bring some focus on the kinds of resources the mothering forums could provide, this is a place for resources and support. I think it is very important to help prevent spanking and if people who come on here and use the resources still don't feel that they have anywhere to go for parenting information and help when they are stressed out then it is important to find out why.


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## jentilla (Nov 18, 2004)

sarajane said:


> I just wanted to say that I don't think it right to compare spanking to spousal abuse or even to child abuse. Some of these women (and children) have been beaten to a pulp practically killed. Comparing that to a pop on the bottom to correct a child who is doing wrong and barely knows what the word no means is just wrong IMO. I'm not taking sides on whether or not you should spank your child or anything. I just believe this comparison to be utterly offensive to someone who has endured severe abuse in any fashion.
> 
> I totally agree. I originally hit this thread because of a situatuation my DD's friend is in, but I came from an abusive background-Dad who was filled with anger and everyday I too work to not yell at stupid things let myself get too angry. I worked for years to release anger passed down from Dad.
> 
> ...


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Hi Mommas!

I really love this board and I love the magazine. I don't have babies yet, but, we're having them in the next two years. I've read heaps and heaps of books on midwifery, pregnancy, birth, nutrition and child rearing, just because it's an interest of mine. I was three when my triplet sisters were born, so, I think it had a deep effect on me.

This IS a very complex issue, and, I don't think one can equate "spanking" children to spousal abuse. They are two seperate things. Both are hitting, but, they are different because the people on the recieving end are different. One is an adult, the other is a dependant, forming, growing child. It's the parents "job" to raise their children and ensure that they "turn out all right" and become good people. That's not the case with spouses. So, the situation is totally different.

(I don't know how to quote)

"And for those folks who talk about hitting once, I dare you to find a grown up who was only spanked once as a child. Granted, there's a big difference between a few times and a lot. But when is it only once?"

Actually, (you knew this was coming, right?







) I was spanked once by my Mom and once by my Dad. The time by my mom was when I was "melting down" in a department store, and with my Dad it was when I was climbing the drawer handles in the kitchen so I could reach the butcher knives to make a cat house out of a cardboard box. Just thought I'd put that out there.

My sisters weren't spanked, but, the ultimate threat was there. We were very happy children, we yelled and screamed and ran around and played outside with our dogs and galloped through the woods mostly. There was a lot of yelling in the house though, and, that's one thing I really want to avoid when we have children.

My husband, on the other hand, was spanked and hit all of the time, more than he can count. HE had a very happy young childhood, he was raised rurally too, by a working Dad and a stay at home mom who made things really special from the looks of things. BUT, he was hit, and I can't accept that.... and I don't think he can either.

But, I can look at WHY his parents felt they should hit their children as part of routine parenting. They didn't know any different. They were beaten on a regular basis by their parents, so, I think they thought they had made IMPROVEMENTS by not hitting as often and providing lots of other things that they did not have as children.

I don't believe that State intervention is the answer. Child services sticking my husband and his sister in foster care would have ruined their lives. We need parenting to change from within the home, by the parents.

I think the very structure of our communities needs to change in order to help parents SEE that there are other ways, without dictating to them.... it has to be their idea and their decision to change the way they deal with their children, and the best way to do that is by example. If we lived in communities that weren't set up to serve cars and were more focussed on families and children, we could have more "time at the park" and time at the kitchen table. Set up a situation where more mothers are spending more time with other mothers and talking about children and seeing other children. That includes being able to live near OUR parents, the ones who we want to live near, and allowing for more time to set up a happy household. A good Tax cut for the middle class and extended maternity leaves would be a good start. Free baby classes at MORE local libraries that are within walking distance of homes. More access to doctors and nurses at community based health centres.

These are "big picture" changes I know. But, I guess the way to start is by TALKING with other mothers, not condeming them, reading more, writing to our elected officials, and inviting more of the neighbours over for pie.

Trin.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I just lost my whole post!! Damn--here goes again.

I think the reason we treat spousal abuse and spanking so differently is based on cultural norms and history.

It used to be that wives were property of husbands. Men were expected to maintain control over their wives (particularly in public) and whatever means they deemed necessary to do so was their business. We (collectively) "understood" how irrational and inferior women were, and supported men in their violent treatment of them. The means justified the ends. There are still numerous states with laws saying that rape can not occur between married people.

Eventually, people fought against this norm and women were granted rights, more protection under the law, and men started to be condemned for using physical violence against women.

Children are still treated the way women used to be. We consider them the property of their parents, we expect parents to control their children (particularly in public), and we view them as irrational inferior beings not capable of being reasoned with.

Of course people resort to physical measures. It's nearly impossible to control another person without using physical means--or at least the threat of them. The societal pressure to view and treat children this way is enormous!

We are very much on the fringe here at MDC. Seeking to guide rather than control children is not yet the norm. Even those of us who firmly believe in this, still struggle to overcome our backrounds and the ENORMOUS societal pressure that says we are making a big mistake.

So, of course people still falter. This is really all so new.

Look at how far we've come with regards to animal rights in the U.S.--no one batted an eye at hitting a dog or shoving its nose in its waste. That's just what you did. Now we know better. We have better tools and a cultural norm that says "Not acceptable anymore!"

We'll get there with kids, I'm sure. But, for now, people are really swimming against the tide. Ten, twenty years down the road, we might have the same reaction to a mom spanking her toddler in WalMart as we would a guy slapping his girlfriend across the face at a restaurant. But, we're not there yet, and people need a lot of support and encouragement to get there, provided they are really trying--which is 99% of the posters here.


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

Mm, you know I was just thinking this EXACT thing today...you wrote my post.


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## bravofrenchie (Oct 15, 2004)

Another important aspect in this, I think, is remorse and the willingness to change.

Many mainstream parents don't have a problem with spanking. They believe that it is an acceptable diciplinary tool. They don't want to change it. OTOH, Mammas who come onto this board regret the fact that they lost control and hit their child/ren, and they want to change. They want help. They're asking for help. If they can change when that help is given, great. If my husband were to hit me, and change after getting help, I would go back to him. However, if nothing changes; if the hitter doesn't want help or doesn't think he/she needs help, or doesn't change after recieving that help, that is when the situation has escalated and gets dangerous, IMO.


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