# Horrible behavior on the way home!



## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

I think I handled this pretty well as it was happening--somehow, despite raging PMS, I managed not to raise my voice except when EnviroKid was far away and I needed to so he could hear me!--but I'm wondering what is the appropriate consequence for this behavior after the fact or if I'm supposed to pretend it never happened and hope it won't happen again.

Two important things to know:

1. EnviroKid and I commute to his pre-school (he's there all day while I'm at work) by city bus, two busses each way. Going home, we have to walk a short distance from one bus route to the other across part of a university campus (Pittsburghers: around the Cathedral of Learning), crossing a busy street at each side. The bus rides typically are a pleasant time when I read to him or we talk together. It's possible usually for us to commute by car (although parking is a problem) or for EnviroDaddy to take him in the car, but this week our car is being repaired.

2. Our family rule for weeknight dinners is that, unless we have special plans which we finalize in the morning, EnviroDaddy starts making dinner at 6:45 and we start eating as soon as it's ready and EnviroKid and I are home. We typically get home between 6:45 and 7:15.

So, yesterday I arrived at school and had this conversation with EnviroKid:
ME: Hello!
KID:







Are we going to the potluck now?
ME: The church potluck was yesterday, remember?
KID: Oh yeah. Where are we going today?
ME: Home.
KID: But you are wearing a fancy dress, so we must be going somewhere.
ME: I'm glad you like my dress [ordinary flowery dress which I can't recall ever wearing to a special occasion







] but we don't have any special plans; we're going home, and Daddy is making dinner.
KID:







: I thought we had a special plan.
ME: You'd like to be doing something different tonight.
KID: Me and Dominic were doing magic tricks today...









We left school, and everything went normally on the first bus. In the area we cross between busses, there's a patio with benches around 3 sides, where EnviroKid likes to play this game: I go to the far corner and sit on the bench and pretend to be waiting for a train; he tells me which it is, the route number, and where I'm going. He portrays the train by running along all of the benches, jumping off, passing my stop while I squawk in indignation, then looping back to pick me up. Then I "ride" by walking right behind him down the 47 steps to the lower lawn, over to the street, and across the street at the walk signal which I must call a "train signal." I am pretty tired of this game after playing it for about two years, but he loves it, so I almost always agree to play. I think the only times I've refused altogether have been when we're running late to get someplace we need to arrive on time.

This time, I was playing the game but got frustrated when the train began to follow a track of ludicrously tight hairpin turns down the stone steps, which were puddled with rain and slippery tree blossoms. I was wearing my one good pair of leather shoes and didn't want to get them wet, and I was afraid of slipping. I didn't tell HIM not to zigzag like that; I just wouldn't do it myself but continued to follow pretty closely behind him. He got furious and demanded that we go back up the stairs and I do it correctly. I told him I would not and went on down the stairs to the next landing.

He ran across the flowerbed that's held up by a retaining wall above the first two flights of steps, to the corner of the wall that is 15-20 feet above the bottom of these steps made of granite or marble or whatever it is that looks fully prepared to crack a 4-year-old's skull, and stepped onto the top of the wall.







Now, EnviroKid is extremely well-coordinated and has excellent balance, but still, I was terrified. I came back up the stairs, approached him slowly speaking gently, explained that standing over there would not convince me to play the game, and told him to come with me to the bus stop. After a while he took my hand and started to walk with me, but then he bolted back there. Repeated the whole thing.

We got down half the steps, but then he went back to whining that we had to go back and start the game again. When I refused, he began yanking on my dress, kicking my feet, and screaming. I told him firmly that this is not the way to get what you want, detached myself, and walked down the rest of the steps. This usually gets him to follow after a while because he hates being alone. However, this time he stayed up there howling, "MAMA!!!" so rather than provoke any of the passersby into calling 911, I went back up. As soon as he saw me, he took off running for the upper stairs. I grabbed him--"OW YOU'RE HURRRTING MEEE!!!" "When you hold still, it will not hurt."--and gave him a choice of walking with me or being carried. He began making the wordless, obnoxious noise I imagine a spoiled brat and a sick cat being put through a meat grinder together would make, and kicking me, so I grabbed him and carried him down the rest of the stairs.

"PUT MEE DOOWWWNN, NOOWWW!!!"
"I will put you down when you are ready to walk with me."
"NO!! PUT ME DOWN!!"
"I will put you down when you are ready to walk with me."
etc. Finally, as we neared the street,
"PUT ME DOWN!! I PROMISE TO WALK!!"
I put him down, and he immediately took off back toward the stairs. I grabbed him and said, "You broke your promise. I'm very disappointed in you." I carried him across the street and set him down there, at the corner of a large lawn with landscaping. It was 25 minutes since we got off the first bus one block away.

He immediately picked up two handfuls of mulch and threw them at me. I said, "Do not throw things at me." He ran away across the lawn. I walked as calmly as I could around the lawn, keeping an eye on him as he ran erratically in various directions for about 15 minutes. At one point he pretended to leap into traffic but actually ducked behind a big metal box (some kind of utility thing) and I knew that's where he was, but I didn't appreciate the maneuver or the spiteful look he gave me just before it, one bit! I started to tell him so when he came out, but he just ran away again.

Finally he said in a snippy tone, "We've probably missed five or sixty busses by now. Why don't we go to the bus stop?" I said, "Good idea!" and we went to the stop. He sat down on the bench, pulled someone's old chewing gum off the underside, and announced, "







I am going to run away around the whole world collecting all the old gum!!" (







) I said, "That'll show ME! How many pieces of gum do you think you will find?" He speculated for a while and seemed to be feeling more peaceful.

But we were now waiting a while for a bus because it was later, when they run less frequently. EnviroKid demanded that I read to him. I explained that I'd like to, but I needed to watch for the bus and make sure the driver saw that we were waiting. (For some reason, many drivers act as if that stop isn't a stop and won't even slow down unless passengers are right on the curb looking undeniably interested in boarding.)

Several weeks ago, a large quantity of fine sand somehow got spilled across the sidewalk in front of the bus stop, and it hasn't been cleaned up. On dry, windy days, I've gotten sand in my eyes, which has been very painful since I wear hard contact lenses. Last night, EnviroKid picked up two handfuls of this sand and threw it at my face, announcing, "I'm going to get sand in your eyes!!" The sand, being damp, didn't get up that high. I grabbed EnviroKid and said, "You wanted me to read to you, so you tried to throw sand in my eyes. You may not throw sand. Hurting people does not get you what you want. This is not a good time for reading. I will read to you on the bus." The moment I let go of him, he threw sand at my face again. I dragged him away from the sand and made him sit on the bench. Finally we got on a bus. The ride home was calm; I read to him.

The instant we got off the bus, EnviroKid said, "I want to have dinner in a restaurant." I said, "You behaved terribly in between busses. People who behave that way don't get taken to restaurants. Anyway, remember our family rule: We don't go to a restaurant on a school night unless we decided that in the morning. Daddy is making dinner for us." But I didn't get through any of those sentences without being interrupted by his shrieking. He kept on about that for a while and said, "If you won't take me to a restaurant, I'll tell Daddy about your bad behavior!" I said I would tell Daddy about HIS bad behavior, too, and we'd see what Daddy had to say. He said, "NO!!! ONLY I CAN TELL HIM!!" I said we'd both tell him, but he could go first. More shrieking.

We got home at 7:45. While EnviroDaddy reheated dinner, we both told our stories. Of course EnviroDaddy agreed that EnviroKid's behavior had been appalling and told him so, particularly emphasizing why we do not throw sand at anyone's eyes.

Bedtime went rather smoothly. I don't think EnviroKid was unusually tired, hungry, or otherwise needy on the way home. I can't figure out what went wrong, except that I didn't kowtow to every detail of his train game--I shouldn't have to do that!

I'm dreading the trip home today because I can't see what is the natural consequence of this behavior, either in the moment or later, except that I'm upset, and I know I'm not supposed to use my emotions to punish my child. So what can I do??


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

So I have a bunch of thoughts about this incident. Here they are in no particular order as I think of them:

1. From a behavioral perspective, you gave him many many many chances to run away, do what he wanted, act unsafely, etc. I'm not surprised that he kept acting this way once he got the chance.

2. After he clearly demonstrated an inability to act appropriate on the way to the bus stop, you should have helped him down there. At the very least, after the first time he broke away after you got him off the wall, you should have gone straight to the bus stop and either held him very firmly or picked him up so that he could not run away again. I keep my language very short and to the point in such instances: "That's a very dangerous place to climb. We're going to the bus stop now."

3. Again, there were quite a few other times to go straight to the bus stop but by trying to give him some control over the situation, this was delayed and he kept doing what he wanted to. He didn't want to go to the bus stop yet and managed to delay that for a LONG time - walking around the lawn while you followed him, climbing the wall, etc.

4. I would have made sure he sat with me on the bench the whole time while waiting for the bus. I might have made a general comment like "It took us a long time to get here, so we have to wait longer than we usually do." And when he asked about going out to eat, I would have not mentioned his behavior but just talked about the rule. Because the rule is in place whether he behaved badly or well in between buses. So it is only going to make him more upset.

5. When kids say things like "I'm going to tell Daddy about your behavior", they are trying to get you to respond, so I just say something like "OK." and nothing else. I'm not sure what purpose the "telling your sides of the story" serves unless the conversation is about what went wrong and what could go better next time.

So to answer your final question, when you pick him up today, I'd remind him that the commute home yesterday didn't go well for either of you and you'd like it to go better this time. Ask him to describe a better way to walk between buses. Really gauge his mood and his possible behavior before you start to go there so that you have a better idea of what to expect. When you are going to get off the first bus, remind him of the plan between buses. And then if you see any of the behavior starting, remind him very simply of the plan and help him to follow it. Don't let him do all of those behaviors again.

As for the train game, 2 years of that is a lot of precedent. I'm amazed you kept it going so long! I'm not surprised that he was so upset if he's used to doing it every time. So now you'll need to focus on how to fade it back so that he's not so set in that routine. Perhaps pick 1 day a week to do a different game on the way to the next bus and then slowly up that until you are mixing up what you do on the way to the bus. Remember that it's a game he invented when he was much younger and he can pay more complicated games now. You can do things like "I spy", make up songs, play a guessing game, etc. Plan it out the night before so that the next day he's been prepped to do the new game.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

He DEMANDED that you go back and play his game according to his terms?

Then he threw mulch at you... and then threw sand at you....and then demanded to be taken to a restaurant...and then screamed at you. And THEN polished it off by threatening to tell his father about YOUR behavior?

At the last comment ("I'm telling Dad") my response would have been "knock yourself out, kiddo, I'm looking forward to discussing this chain of events with your father too."

I probably would have waited until we were home, and things had calmed down (and I would have had to take a personal time out - my DS would have been handed over to DH while I went in my room and screamed.) That night, I'd discuss the behavior, say that it was unacceptable. I'd explain that while Mama likes to play the train game, that there was a reason I couldn't (your shoes, etc.) I'd say that Mama playing the game is something we do for fun, but not some sort of absolute right that he has.

I'd discuss the dangers of running away and walking across a high wall.

As for the restaurant demands, my answer (at the time) would have been along the lines of "Are you kidding? You're running away from me, throwing mulch and sand at me, threatening to 'tell' on me, and generally acting out as much as a child possibly could have. I don't think so."

I'm pretty casual with my kids, though, although I have stopped short of saying things like, "Are you HIGH??? After THAT behavior you want me to take you out? Dude, what have you been smoking????"









I'm sorry you had such a rough time. I am sooooooo not a Dr Phil fan, but I do embrace the "you teach people how to treat you" concept. My next pick up would not be full of games and fun. I'd be pretty direct that I was very disappointed with the behavior the day before, and that playing games and goofing off is a privilege, not a right, and that being rude and not listening makes mama just want to get home, not engage and play.

I would never love withdraw - I give hugs and kisses in the aftermath of my kiddos acting out if they want them, but I don't think you should allow him to treat you like that. Just from your OP, it sounds like he "demands" a lot from you and I don't think that's teaching mutual respect. There's no GD rule that we have to allow our kids to order us around. If mine are rude in a request, I'll say something like, "Excuse me? Try that again...." And usually they'll ask in a more polite way.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

What a day! I remember 4.5. I remember similar moods.

A few thoughts - in no particular order, just throwing them out as bullets.

1) You say he didnt' seem unusually hungry - but you didn't get home for dinner until nearly 8pm. And he's 4. I actually *remember* being 4, and I remember getting into those moods. And my parents figured out while travelling with me that when I got into those moods, I often really, really needed to eat something.

2) You being cranky is a natural consequence. It is the main natural consequence. And honestly, its one that kids try to provoke. Not because they are bad, but because they are figuring out the world and their role in it. Go get a copy of "The Scientist in the Crib," which has a lot to say about the idea of "testing." In the real world, your actions have effects on other people, and their behavior changes if they get upset, or mad, or sad. This is normal, and not something to protect him from by never showing emotion in discipline. Kids want to understand how their actions and emotions affect others. It's vital to getting along in human society. If you deny them that knowledge, they'll keep trying.
I would say, if this starts happening again, "Honey, I am hungry, and tired, and I want to get home. And what you are doing is making it take longer to get home."

3) Natural consequence would also be, the next time he wants to keep playing the train game, "The last time we played, we missed the bus and we got home late. I am tired and we need to get home to eat dinner and I want to make sure we don't miss the bus."

4) My kids frequently ask to eat out. "We can't eat out every night," I tell them. When they're just begging but in an okay mood, I might talk about how restaurant food is not good to eat every day, and how it costs a lot of money that we might be able to spend on other things that the kids like.

5) By 4, depending on the location, one tactic can be to say "I'm sorry, I dont' want to play. I am walking to the bus stop now." and then just turning around and doing it. Matter of fact.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Can you manage carrying him safely? After you carried him down the stairs, and then he immediately threw mulch (and then took off running), I'd have scooped him back up and carried him to the final destination (bus stop). And then he would sit on my lap.

Can he still fit in an umbrella stroller? Maybe bring one and insist that he ride, if he is not acting safely.

I agree with the "knock yourself out" attitude when he is going to "tell" on you. My dd was a melt-down kind of kid when she was younger, and lots of times she would want something nice after a meltdown (play a game, read a book). I wasn't intentionally withholding love, but I was often *so wiped out* from dealing with 1 hr plus of meltdown that I would just refuse saying "I'm exhausted from our morning. I need a break". I'd say something similar when he demanded (well, I don't respond to demands, period) you read a book "I'm exhausted from having to carrying you here. I need a break." It's a natural and honest consequence.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Yes, pretend it never happened and try again today. I'm a firm believer in grace. Everyone deserves a chance to start again. If he starts up again today (though you're probably on your way, given the time zone differences), you can remind him "We didn't have a good day yesterday. Today I want to do X and Y so we don't feel so grumpy."

At the same time, that's a LATE schedule for a 4 year old. Do you bring a snack? Did he nap at school? This is the kind of behavior I see in my kids (well, in dd, ds is old enough for some kind of control now) when they are tired and/or hungry.

I think you may also need to set some time limits on how long you'll play 'train' before you need to move on. Setting up explicit expectations beforehand really helps my kids. "I'll play this for 10 minutes, and I'm afraid I'm going to slip on the wet stones, so I need the train to take an easy route."


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I honestly refuse to work that hard to have a regular interaction with my child. Even things like 'You wish we were doing something different.' Do you ever say that to someone else apart from your child? I think just being real would go a long way here, being you, telling it like it is, saying No.


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## SevenVeils (Aug 28, 2006)

To me, natural consequences of throwing things at me definitely includes NOT reading to you. That isn't using your emotion to punish, it is truly natural consequence.


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## gsd1amommy (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
I think I handled this pretty well as it was happening--somehow, despite raging PMS, I managed not to raise my voice except when EnviroKid was far away and I needed to so he could hear me!--but I'm wondering what is the appropriate consequence for this behavior after the fact or if I'm supposed to pretend it never happened and hope it won't happen again.

Two important things to know:

1. EnviroKid and I commute to his pre-school (he's there all day while I'm at work) by city bus, two busses each way. Going home, we have to walk a short distance from one bus route to the other across part of a university campus (Pittsburghers: around the Cathedral of Learning), crossing a busy street at each side. The bus rides typically are a pleasant time when I read to him or we talk together. It's possible usually for us to commute by car (although parking is a problem) or for EnviroDaddy to take him in the car, but this week our car is being repaired.

2. Our family rule for weeknight dinners is that, unless we have special plans which we finalize in the morning, EnviroDaddy starts making dinner at 6:45 and we start eating as soon as it's ready and EnviroKid and I are home. We typically get home between 6:45 and 7:15.

So, yesterday I arrived at school and had this conversation with EnviroKid:
ME: Hello!
KID:







Are we going to the potluck now?
ME: The church potluck was yesterday, remember?
KID: Oh yeah. Where are we going today?
ME: Home.
KID: But you are wearing a fancy dress, so we must be going somewhere.
ME: I'm glad you like my dress [ordinary flowery dress which I can't recall ever wearing to a special occasion







] but we don't have any special plans; we're going home, and Daddy is making dinner.
KID:







: I thought we had a special plan.
ME: You'd like to be doing something different tonight.
KID: Me and Dominic were doing magic tricks today...









We left school, and everything went normally on the first bus. In the area we cross between busses, there's a patio with benches around 3 sides, where EnviroKid likes to play this game: I go to the far corner and sit on the bench and pretend to be waiting for a train; he tells me which it is, the route number, and where I'm going. He portrays the train by running along all of the benches, jumping off, passing my stop while I squawk in indignation, then looping back to pick me up. Then I "ride" by walking right behind him down the 47 steps to the lower lawn, over to the street, and across the street at the walk signal which I must call a "train signal." I am pretty tired of this game after playing it for about two years, but he loves it, so I almost always agree to play. I think the only times I've refused altogether have been when we're running late to get someplace we need to arrive on time.

This time, I was playing the game but got frustrated when the train began to follow a track of ludicrously tight hairpin turns down the stone steps, which were puddled with rain and slippery tree blossoms. I was wearing my one good pair of leather shoes and didn't want to get them wet, and I was afraid of slipping. I didn't tell HIM not to zigzag like that; I just wouldn't do it myself but continued to follow pretty closely behind him. He got furious and demanded that we go back up the stairs and I do it correctly. I told him I would not and went on down the stairs to the next landing.

*He ran across the flowerbed* that's held up by a retaining wall above the first two flights of steps, to the corner of the wall that is 15-20 feet above the bottom of these steps made of granite or marble or whatever it is that looks fully prepared to crack a 4-year-old's skull, and stepped onto the top of the wall.







Now, EnviroKid is extremely well-coordinated and has excellent balance, but still, I was terrified. I came back up the stairs, approached him slowly speaking gently, explained that standing over there would not convince me to play the game, and told him to come with me to the bus stop. After a while he took my hand and started to walk with me, but then he bolted back there. Repeated the whole thing.

We got down half the steps, but then he went back to whining that we had to go back and start the game again. When I refused, he began yanking on my dress, kicking my feet, and screaming. I told him firmly that this is not the way to get what you want, detached myself, and walked down the rest of the steps. This usually gets him to follow after a while because he hates being alone. However, this time he stayed up there howling, "MAMA!!!" so rather than provoke any of the passersby into calling 911, I went back up. As soon as he saw me, he took off running for the upper stairs. I grabbed him--"OW YOU'RE HURRRTING MEEE!!!" "When you hold still, it will not hurt."--and gave him a choice of walking with me or being carried. He began making the wordless, obnoxious noise I imagine a spoiled brat and a sick cat being put through a meat grinder together would make, and kicking me, so I grabbed him and carried him down the rest of the stairs.

"PUT MEE DOOWWWNN, NOOWWW!!!"
"I will put you down when you are ready to walk with me."
"NO!! PUT ME DOWN!!"
"I will put you down when you are ready to walk with me."
etc. Finally, as we neared the street,
"PUT ME DOWN!! I PROMISE TO WALK!!"
I put him down, and he immediately took off back toward the stairs. I grabbed him and said, "You broke your promise. I'm very disappointed in you." I carried him across the street and set him down there, at the corner of a large lawn with landscaping. It was 25 minutes since we got off the first bus one block away.

*He immediately picked up two handfuls of mulch and threw them at me*. I said, "Do not throw things at me." *He ran away across the lawn*. I walked as calmly as I could around the lawn, keeping an eye on him as he ran erratically in various directions for about 15 minutes. At one point he pretended to leap into traffic but actually ducked behind a big metal box (some kind of utility thing) and I knew that's where he was, but I didn't appreciate the maneuver or the spiteful look he gave me just before it, one bit! I started to tell him so when he came out, but he just ran away again.

Finally he said in a snippy tone, "We've probably missed five or sixty busses by now. Why don't we go to the bus stop?" I said, "Good idea!" and we went to the stop. He sat down on the bench, pulled someone's old chewing gum off the underside, and announced, "







I am going to run away around the whole world collecting all the old gum!!" (







) I said, "That'll show ME! How many pieces of gum do you think you will find?" He speculated for a while and seemed to be feeling more peaceful.

But we were now waiting a while for a bus because it was later, when they run less frequently. EnviroKid demanded that I read to him. I explained that I'd like to, but I needed to watch for the bus and make sure the driver saw that we were waiting. (For some reason, many drivers act as if that stop isn't a stop and won't even slow down unless passengers are right on the curb looking undeniably interested in boarding.)

Several weeks ago, a large quantity of fine sand somehow got spilled across the sidewalk in front of the bus stop, and it hasn't been cleaned up. On dry, windy days, I've gotten sand in my eyes, which has been very painful since I wear hard contact lenses. Last night, *EnviroKid picked up two handfuls of this sand and threw it* at my face, announcing, "I'm going to get sand in your eyes!!" The sand, being damp, didn't get up that high. I grabbed EnviroKid and said, "You wanted me to read to you, so you tried to throw sand in my eyes. You may not throw sand. Hurting people does not get you what you want. This is not a good time for reading. I will read to you on the bus." The moment I let go of him, *he threw sand at my face again*. I dragged him away from the sand and made him sit on the bench. Finally we got on a bus. The ride home was calm; I read to him.

The instant we got off the bus, EnviroKid said, "I want to have dinner in a restaurant." I said, "You behaved terribly in between busses. People who behave that way don't get taken to restaurants. Anyway, remember our family rule: We don't go to a restaurant on a school night unless we decided that in the morning. Daddy is making dinner for us." But I didn't get through any of those sentences without being interrupted by his shrieking. He kept on about that for a while and said, "If you won't take me to a restaurant, I'll tell Daddy about your bad behavior!" I said I would tell Daddy about HIS bad behavior, too, and we'd see what Daddy had to say. He said, "NO!!! ONLY I CAN TELL HIM!!" I said we'd both tell him, but he could go first. More shrieking.

We got home at 7:45. While EnviroDaddy reheated dinner, we both told our stories. Of course EnviroDaddy agreed that EnviroKid's behavior had been appalling and told him so, particularly emphasizing why we do not throw sand at anyone's eyes.

Bedtime went rather smoothly. I don't think EnviroKid was unusually tired, hungry, or otherwise needy on the way home. I can't figure out what went wrong, except that I didn't kowtow to every detail of his train game--I shouldn't have to do that!

I'm dreading the trip home today because I can't see what is the natural consequence of this behavior, either in the moment or later, except that I'm upset, and I know I'm not supposed to use my emotions to punish my child. So what can I do??

His commute home this evening would most certainly involve checking out these areas where he made a mess last night to make certain they are nice and tidy. Since he didn't clean up the mulch he threw and the sand he scattered, making a mess for others to clean up, he could take a look around these areas tonight to make sure they are ship shape.

If not, it wouldn't hurt him one bit to spend a few minutes cleaning up after someone else just as someone did after him. He could also scope out the flower beds he trampled through, make sure he did no damage to flowers that were paid for and planted by someone else. Actually, my child would have done this last night and had he damaged any plants, we would be replanting them tonight or offering to pay for the damage.

There were lots of opportunities to explore and experience the natural consequences of his actions but I think you missed them by getting into the pissing contest with him. I am stunned that a grown woman, a mother, no less, would argue with a four year old about who was going to be the first to report "bad behavior to daddy".


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Sometimes I think too with all these strategies, kids end up desperately seeking the real us, the real edge, some real limit. Imagine if the people important to you in your life always responded strategically, never with their real feelings or real responses? Some of the most strategic parents I know, who try every technique in a singsong voice, have the absolute most horrible kids.


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## soposdedi (May 9, 2005)

He was hungry, mama. Snack before bus trip, very nearly entire problem solved







. Oh and you don't HAVE to play that game if you don't want to, I swear. His sparkles will remain intact!


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

I think you did a great job and did everything you could possibly do to try to turn things around and get back on track.

For some reason, my 4.5 year old occasionally has great difficulties with the transition from preschool to home. She can't tell me why she is having such a hard time today when yesterday everything was smooth. Its bewildering. Maybe she had a bad interaction with a playmate; maybe she didn't eat much for lunch; maybe she's more tired than usual... who knows.

Most of the time the transition is fine and fun reconnecting time. But as LynnS8 suggested, food was probably needed. I'm not above reminding DD I've got some marshmallows or crackers or yogurt drink in my pocket; let's sit down and make a picnic or some other such bribery. I prefer to think of it as helping her change the channel when we've gotten into a bad series of events. And oh yes, has she run from me!!! Nothing quite so frustrating when you have to tear after your crazy disobedient child with all the other parents and teachers watching.

Otherwise... chalk it up to a bad day. If it happens again, you can think of a better plan.


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## BetsyNY (Jul 1, 2005)

Ditto PPs--give him a snack and tell him no more train game.

I also agree that the whole getting home to "tell Daddy" is bizarre. Don't put yourself on that level. He's four.


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## Munchkinmaker (Jun 8, 2005)

I'm going out on a limb here and I'm going to assume you use enviro mom/dad/kid so you can remain anonymous? But in this post you went on to post the exact bus rout you take, the rout you walk between buses, the approximate time you will be riding and walking those routs, in which city and for how many days and you also worked pretty hard at describing what to look for to pick you out of a crowd.

I'm pretty private on the Internet but get that people are less so and that's fine... But judging by the fact you chose screen names for all your family members while you post, I'd feel irresponsible if I didn't point out and caution you from putting so many details in your posts.


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## IdahoMom (Nov 8, 2005)

So much going on here, but I think the best start would be talking at him less and feeding him more. That is SO late for a 4-year-old to have dinner. It's almost bedtime around here! When does preschool give him the last snack? How long has he been without food by the time you start the trek home? Dude is hungry!


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

First, I am impressed that you didn't scream or spank--I always commend parents for self control. There are wonderful responses already in this thread. Particular thoughts that stand out:

1). If he is usually cooperative and pleasant I wouldn't assume anything different should be done tomorrow. It might have just been one, isolated, awful day. It happens.

2). Snacks are a good idea--just in case.

3). Personally, for me, I am more along the lines of Thismama in terms of how I would have responded in that moment. To put it simply, when ds acted within the range of 'normal' for himself, he could expect the range of normal responses from me--tons of reflection, engagement, empathy, second chances etc.

However, on the few occasions (around age 4) that he decided to deliberately break every rule within sight and more or less acted completely out of control including acting dangerous (you described traffic, retaining walls, bus stops, throwing sand at your eyes etc), then he quickly learned that brought another side of parenting to the table. I took control immediately and totally. No more discussion or engagement and zero negotiaton. I would have picked him up and held him tightly against me, tethering him to me if necessary with a sling or sash, with zero opportunity for him to continue being dangerous, and completely ignored any screaming, crying, or whatever retorts he shouted. When I say no negotiation I mean there would have been absolutely no discussion until we were home, safe, fed, and ds had noticeably calmed down.

This is more or less what happened the few times he did what you described. For my own ds it was highly effective. It was also highly effective for me personally.The limits were made crystal clear to ds without any spanking, screaming, or futile negotiating. If he had done such a thing twice in a row he would have found himself traveling on a tether to my wrist or in a stroller. Again, with zero negotation or discussion, because my safety and his safety was my responsibility. I had no intention of asking his permission to do my job.


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

The only thing I have to add is, Do you bring a snack? Some sunflower seeds or fruit leather?


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Sometimes I think too with all these strategies, kids end up desperately seeking the real us, the real edge, some real limit. Imagine if the people important to you in your life always responded strategically, never with their real feelings or real responses? Some of the most strategic parents I know, who try every technique in a singsong voice, have the absolute most horrible kids.

Exactly. This kind of hide-your-emotion parenting is not REAL. Kids want to see the REAL us.

You were angry, OP. You had been disrespected, you had been disobeyed, a promise to you had been broken and demands were being made of you. There is nothing wrong with showing just anger. By that I don't mean "only" anger, but "righteous" anger. It was your RIGHT to be angry.

I let my kids see me angry. I do my best not to react in anger when it comes to discipline, but I do let them SEE me angry. I let them see me cry. I let them see me exasperated, and confused, and scared and sad. It's part of being a human being.

The natural consequence of having someone treat you like crud is anger and sadness. Showing thsoe emotions to your son is not bad parenting.

Take this example: If someone came up to your _son_ and threw rocks at his face, would you want him to just stand there void of all emotion and say, "You are mad at me. You did that to show me how upset you are." I would hope he would respond with JUST anger and be able to defend himself as a person worthy of respect.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

I'd also like to add that I *totally* agree with heartmama.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
However, on the few occasions (around age 4) that he decided to deliberately break every rule within sight and more or less acted completely out of control including acting dangerous (you described traffic, retaining walls, bus stops, throwing sand at your eyes etc), then *he quickly learned that brought another side of parenting to the table. I took control immediately and totally. No more discussion or engagement and zero negotiaton.* I would have picked him up and held him tightly against me, tethering him to me if necessary with a sling or sash, with zero opportunity for him to continue being dangerous, and completely ignored any screaming, crying, or whatever retorts he shouted. *When I say no negotiation I mean there would have been absolutely no discussion until we were home, safe, fed, and ds had noticeably calmed down.*
This is more or less what happened the few times he did what you described. For my own ds it was highly effective. It was also highly effective for me personally.The limits were made crystal clear to ds without any spanking, screaming, or futile negotiating. If he had done such a thing twice in a row he would have found himself traveling on a tether to my wrist or in a stroller. *Again, with zero negotation or discussion, because my safety and his safety was my responsibility. I had no intention of asking his permission to do my job.*

When I have done this, it's been highly effective as well.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
If he had done such a thing twice in a row he would have found himself traveling on a tether to my wrist or in a stroller.

We had the same approach, which is why I always had an umbrella stoller with me on walking-outings until dd was 5. It didn't stop her from having these kinds of meltdowns, but it gave me a way to keep her safe and minimize the drama until we got home.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
We had the same approach, which is why I always had an umbrella stoller with me on walking-outings until dd was 5. It didn't stop her from having these kinds of meltdowns, but it gave me a way to keep her safe and minimize the drama until we got home.

This sounds great, but I'm curious as to how you mamas keep a child in a stroller? I've always just carried mine when things are heading for out of control territory.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Carrying my 4 yo dd in meltdown would get me hurt, although I did it when necessary. I'd buckle her and tilt the stroller back on the back two wheels (mostly because she would try to drag her feet) and get the heck out of there asap. I could see if she was unbuckling, and stop her before successful.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

How do you buckle them in, mid-meltdown, without getting hurt?


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## LisainCalifornia (May 29, 2002)

That schedule just sounds very innapropriate for a 4 year old. I am over 40, and would be so hungry and tired if I didn't get home to eat till almost 8:00. Even your "typical" schedule (without being late) sounds way too late. My kids have always eaten dinner around 5:30, and bathtime is a few hours later. Then it is quiet resting time (like reading) before bed. I can't imagine not getting home to eat dinner till so late with them. I really think this can affect behavior negatively. I also thinking that sometimes we confuse our kids by talking too much, or giving them too many chances or choices. Sometimes it is better to just take a leadership tone and get on with the business of getting home.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
How do you buckle them in, mid-meltdown, without getting hurt?

Desperation?









lol

You do what you have to do, you know? Sometimes I took the brunt of it, but less so than when carrying her.


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LisainCalifornia* 
That schedule just sounds very innapropriate for a 4 year old. I am over 40, and would be so hungry and tired if I didn't get home to eat till almost 8:00. Even your "typical" schedule (without being late) sounds way too late. My kids have always eaten dinner around 5:30, and bathtime is a few hours later. Then it is quiet resting time (like reading) before bed. I can't imagine not getting home to eat dinner till so late with them. I really think this can affect behavior negatively. I also thinking that sometimes we confuse our kids by talking too much, or giving them too many chances or choices. Sometimes it is better to just take a leadership tone and get on with the business of getting home.

Just a quick comment about the above - obviously things got dragged out too much on the one day, but not everyone has the option of getting home and having dinner on the table at 5:30! If no one's home until 6:45, well, that's just the way it is. That said, packing a snack for the way home, if you don't do so already, sounds like a great idea.

Overall it sounds like you were doing your best in very trying circumstances. I agree that in future if something like this comes up, to not give him so many chances, and that it's fine to show that you're angry or upset about his behavior when it's waaaay out of line. Rip that bandaid off instead of inching it off, you know?

I remember that age being bizarrely difficult, with lots of meltdowns from my usually calm and reasonable kid. But then they went away, so hang in there!


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

In answer to the many questions/comments about feeding and schedule: I do not have a choice about whether or not to work full-time. Everyone in our family prefers a later schedule; we all have trouble falling asleep at bedtime and trouble getting up on time in the morning, but the school closes at 6:30 so that's the anchor point of our schedule! I typically work 9:15-5:45 so that I can pick up EnviroKid around 6:00. Because of the length of our commute, he brings a snack (trail mix or fruit) to school every day to eat at 5:00, in addition to the school-provided snack at 3:00. Occasionally he will complain of being hungry anyway, but on the day in question he did NOT say he was hungry. He still naps at school, usually 2 hours, and sleeps about 9 hours at night. On the day in question, the whiteboard at school said he had slept 2 hours 30 minutes, and he was not rubbing his eyes or otherwise seeming tired.

Several of you say I should have kept him physically restrained all the way home after the first trouble. I think this might just barely be possible...but my child weighs 42 pounds, I was carrying 2 bags which together must weigh 15 pounds (we use ceramic containers for lunches and are reading a 200-page hardcover book), he was struggling and we needed to descend 47 stone steps, and I have chronic problems with muscle spasms in my back and neck. I'm not writing off carrying him as a solution to a big crisis like this, but it isn't something I can do every day and I have to consider it risky.

It is absolutely impossible to bring a stroller. The busses are very crowded at the time of morning when we travel, and I'm carrying enough things already.

PikkuMyy wrote:

Quote:

Again, there were quite a few other times to go straight to the bus stop but by trying to give him some control over the situation, this was delayed and he kept doing what he wanted to. He didn't want to go to the bus stop yet and managed to delay that for a LONG time - walking around the lawn while you followed him, climbing the wall, etc.
Is it bad for him to have some control over the situation? Is it wrong to let him run around a lawn? I hoped that letting him run out some of his energy once we were in a safer place (that is, safe if you don't purposely run out of it into traffic







) would help him to calm down. Did you notice that it ended with him pretending that it was his idea to go to the bus stop?

Quote:

I would have made sure he sat with me on the bench the whole time while waiting for the bus.
I guess it was unclear that I didn't have the option of sitting on the bench myself. The bench is far back from the curb, and there's a hedge next to it that blocks your view of an approaching bus until it's almost there--that's why we've had problems in the past with drivers passing us up if I'm not out by the curb. (Yes, I have called the bus company several times to request that their drivers at least slow down and look into the shelter, but still some of them don't.)

Quote:

I'm not sure what purpose the "telling your sides of the story" serves unless the conversation is about what went wrong and what could go better next time.
That was exactly the idea. Also, I wanted his father's help in deciding if there was some consequence to be imposed.

Quote:

So to answer your final question, when you pick him up today, I'd remind him that the commute home yesterday didn't go well for either of you and you'd like it to go better this time. Ask him to describe a better way to walk between buses. Really gauge his mood and his possible behavior before you start to go there so that you have a better idea of what to expect. When you are going to get off the first bus, remind him of the plan between buses. And then if you see any of the behavior starting, remind him very simply of the plan and help him to follow it.
I wasn't able to see your reply until today, but this is almost exactly what I did. He suggested that I "wait at a different station" so that his train would come for me sooner, and that all went pretty smoothly. The rest of the evening was pretty normal.

BlueStateMama wrote:

Quote:

At the last comment ("I'm telling Dad") my response would have been "knock yourself out, kiddo, I'm looking forward to discussing this chain of events with your father too."
and gsd1amommy wrote:

Quote:

I am stunned that a grown woman, a mother, no less, would argue with a four year old about who was going to be the first to report "bad behavior to daddy".
The way I responded was MUCH more like BlueStateMama is imagining. I tried to project a calm confidence that when EnviroDaddy heard both sides of the story, it would be obvious that I was in the right. I didn't argue about who would be first; I shruggingly told him he could go first and that would be just fine.

Savithny wrote:

Quote:

In the real world, your actions have effects on other people, and their behavior changes if they get upset, or mad, or sad. This is normal, and not something to protect him from by never showing emotion in discipline.
and thismama wrote:

Quote:

Some of the most strategic parents I know, who try every technique in a singsong voice, have the absolute most horrible kids.
and Sancta wrote:

Quote:

If someone came up to your son and threw rocks at his face, would you want him to just stand there void of all emotion and say, "You are mad at me. You did that to show me how upset you are." I would hope he would respond with JUST anger and be able to defend himself as a person worthy of respect.
I didn't say I showed no emotion! I said I didn't RAISE MY VOICE i.e. shriek at him. I didn't say, "You did that to show me how upset you are"; I said, "Do not throw things at me." and "You wanted me to read to you, so you tried to throw sand in my eyes. You may not throw sand. Hurting people does not get you what you want." I certainly did not speak in a singsong voice or sound all wimpy and gooey. I was very firm and made it quite clear that I was angry and frustrated. I just refrained from freaking out and making the whole neighborhood listen to me, that's all. Is it just because I am capable of remembering a Becky Bailey technique in the heat of the moment that you assume I said those words in a sweetly useless way? I said, "You wanted me to read to you, so you tried to throw sand in my eyes." in a tone meant to convey, _You and I both know that was an utterly preposterous and horrible thing to do._ I said, "You may not throw sand. Hurting people does not get you what you want." with the kind of clenched-teeth tension that implies, _I am so tempted to shake you to emphasize each word._

Thismama wrote:

Quote:

I honestly refuse to work that hard to have a regular interaction with my child. Even things like 'You wish we were doing something different.' Do you ever say that to someone else apart from your child?
Sometimes, and I've found it startlingly effective. It's straight out of Faber & Mazlisch. Did you notice how it made EnviroKid feel that I had heard what he was saying so he could go on to another topic? That's exactly what I was going for. The only reason I included that conversation in my post is that he did return to his "we're supposed to be doing something special tonight" idea later with asking to go to a restaurant.

SevenVeils wrote:

Quote:

To me, natural consequences of throwing things at me definitely includes NOT reading to you. That isn't using your emotion to punish, it is truly natural consequence.
It is if I hate reading aloud and consider it something I do only as luxury coddling. But I enjoy reading to him, and it gives both of us something calm and bonding to do on the bus. It seems to me that refusing to read leaves both of us with nothing to do but continue seething.

gsd1amommy wrote:

Quote:

His commute home this evening would most certainly involve checking out these areas where he made a mess last night to make certain they are nice and tidy. Since he didn't clean up the mulch he threw and the sand he scattered, making a mess for others to clean up... He could also scope out the flower beds he trampled through, make sure he did no damage to flowers that were paid for and planted by someone else. Actually, my child would have done this last night and had he damaged any plants, we would be replanting them tonight or offering to pay for the damage.
I see your point, but this really wasn't an issue. The mulch fell into grass; it would not have been possible to find it and pick it up. The flowerbed is heavily woodchipped, such that our footprints were not visible, and he didn't step on any plants. The sand is, as I said, spilled on the sidewalk and already A MESSY HAZARD THAT I REALLY WISH THE CITY WOULD CLEAN UP ALREADY







and he didn't make it any worse.

Munchkinmaker wrote:

Quote:

I'm going out on a limb here and I'm going to assume you use enviro mom/dad/kid so you can remain anonymous? ... I'd feel irresponsible if I didn't point out and caution you from putting so many details in your posts.
I see your point, but I'm not really concerned about that. The reason I use names related to my screen name for my family members is that I can't stand "DS", etc., and I want it to be clear who's who--if I used their first names, you'd have to remember which name belongs to which male.

Heartmama wrote:

Quote:

However, on the few occasions (around age 4) that he decided to deliberately break every rule within sight and more or less acted completely out of control including acting dangerous (you described traffic, retaining walls, bus stops, throwing sand at your eyes etc), then he quickly learned that brought another side of parenting to the table. I took control immediately and totally. No more discussion or engagement and zero negotiaton. I would have picked him up and held him tightly against me, tethering him to me if necessary with a sling or sash, with zero opportunity for him to continue being dangerous, and completely ignored any screaming, crying, or whatever retorts he shouted. When I say no negotiation I mean there would have been absolutely no discussion until we were home, safe, fed, and ds had noticeably calmed down.
This sounds like a good response in future, once he's done ONE thing like running out to the top of a wall. I did have to get him away from the edge in a non-startling way to avoid making him fall, but after that it probably would have been better to keep him restrained. He's so hard to carry that I kept hoping he would cooperate....

Lisa in California wrote:

Quote:

That schedule just sounds very innapropriate for a 4 year old. I am over 40, and would be so hungry and tired if I didn't get home to eat till almost 8:00. Even your "typical" schedule (without being late) sounds way too late. My kids have always eaten dinner around 5:30, and bathtime is a few hours later. Then it is quiet resting time (like reading) before bed. I can't imagine not getting home to eat dinner till so late with them. I really think this can affect behavior negatively.
When EnviroKid was going to a home childcare and we were able to let him set his own schedule more, he stayed up past 11:00 every night and didn't wake until at least 8:00 in the morning. Not everybody is exactly like you. It's been over 2 years since he started going to this school, and we are still struggling to keep him on the earlier schedule. Talking of sources of stress here, imagine what it's like to have to leave the house every morning at the time when you'd like to be just waking up! That's how it is for every member of our family. But we just have to suck it up because enough people agree with you that, beginning next fall, he'll have to be AT SCHOOL at that time.


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## AoifesMom (Sep 7, 2007)

I don't really have much advice to offer. I just wanted to pipe in with some support. It sounds like a truly miserable evening and I hope it gets better. Hang in there.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Understand that I am writing from the perspective of a parent whose child had this level of meltdown on a regular basis....not a one-time thing. But even one time is a nightmare, right?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
It is absolutely impossible to bring a stroller. The busses are very crowded at the time of morning when we travel, and I'm carrying enough things already.

That's why I brought an umbrella stroller. They fold down to nothing for space in the bus, and you can push your bags in them when dc is not using it (a huge benefit in and of itself)--but you have it for emergency containment. I'd ditch the thick book and ceramic lunchware before I'd ditch my umbrella stroller with an unpredictable preschooler and a _long_ journey home.

Quote:

Is it bad for him to have some control over the situation? Is it wrong to let him run around a lawn? I hoped that letting him run out some of his energy once we were in a safer place (that is, safe if you don't purposely run out of it into traffic







) would help him to calm down. Did you notice that it ended with him pretending that it was his idea to go to the bus stop?(

All kids are different, and maybe running around would help some kids in that situation. It wouldn't have been helpful for my dd at that age; when she was out-of-control melting down, she needed us to take control very firmly. She needed the safety of boundaries and a quick exit (the ripping off the bandaid metaphor is perfect). We couldn't trust her to act safely when she was in such a state of mind. From what you've told us, I wouldn't trust your son in a similar situation again.


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## sophiekat (Oct 29, 2005)

First, I know it's hard to hear these things, and I don't blame you for feeling defensive.
But I think that maybe all these posters are seeing some behaviour that could be changed in order for you to have a more pleasant commute home.

Quote:

Savithny wrote:
Quote:
In the real world, your actions have effects on other people, and their behavior changes if they get upset, or mad, or sad. This is normal, and not something to protect him from by never showing emotion in discipline.

and thismama wrote:
Quote:
Some of the most strategic parents I know, who try every technique in a singsong voice, have the absolute most horrible kids.

and Sancta wrote:
Quote:
If someone came up to your son and threw rocks at his face, would you want him to just stand there void of all emotion and say, "You are mad at me. You did that to show me how upset you are." I would hope he would respond with JUST anger and be able to defend himself as a person worthy of respect.

I didn't say I showed no emotion! I said I didn't RAISE MY VOICE i.e. shriek at him. I didn't say, "You did that to show me how upset you are"; I said, "Do not throw things at me." and "You wanted me to read to you, so you tried to throw sand in my eyes. You may not throw sand. Hurting people does not get you what you want." I certainly did not speak in a singsong voice or sound all wimpy and gooey. I was very firm and made it quite clear that I was angry and frustrated. I just refrained from freaking out and making the whole neighborhood listen to me, that's all. Is it just because I am capable of remembering a Becky Bailey technique in the heat of the moment that you assume I said those words in a sweetly useless way? I said, "You wanted me to read to you, so you tried to throw sand in my eyes." in a tone meant to convey, You and I both know that was an utterly preposterous and horrible thing to do. I said, "You may not throw sand. Hurting people does not get you what you want." with the kind of clenched-teeth tension that implies, I am so tempted to shake you to emphasize each word.
/quote.

I've found that even with my incredibly verbal, smart, intelligent 4 year old that when she's in destructo-cycle like this that the fewer words I use to get my point across the better.
Perhaps, instead of starting with the Bailey technique, it would get your point across in a more meaningful way to start with
"Do NOT throw sand at me." Maybe even following up with a consequence -- "if you continue to throw sand, you will have to be carried the rest of the way home."
_Then_, after your limit has been firmly established, move on to "hurting people does not get you what you want."

Also, I've found that even when *I* think my tone is clearly conveying a message to my child, *she* doesn't always pick up on that. After all, she is only four, and while she's had lots of interaction with adults, reading tone (especially when she's in destructo-cycle) can be difficult.
So instead of
quote
I said, "You wanted me to read to you, so you tried to throw sand in my eyes." in a tone meant to convey, You and I both know that was an utterly preposterous and horrible thing to do. I said, "You may not throw sand. Hurting people does not get you what you want." with the kind of clenched-teeth tension that implies, I am so tempted to shake you to emphasize each word.
/quote.

were I in the situation I would use my words (but again, as few as possible so she doesn't tune out and miss the point) -- "It is not OK to throw sand. I will not read to you if you do that." You could even follow it up with "I am upset with the way you are acting. If you want me to read to you, you need to stop throwing things/walk nicely the rest of the way/whatever is most important at that point."
That way you're acknowledging what he wants (you to read) while reiterating the limit.

I hope this comes across the way I intend -- not to make you defensive but as something that's helped me.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

I can see from your posts that you're doing the best you you absolutely can - as we all do. I have a 4 and a 6 year old (20 months apart) and they bring me to my knees some days, I swear. I just hope that you and your DH are on the same page. My DH and I don't always agree about parenting nuances, but we agree to back each other (we're together on the macro, not always the micro) and we present a united front. We may disagree and discuss later in private, but the kids get "MAMA/DADDY" in unison, no toe-holds to start playing divide and conquer.

Thank you for taking the time to answer multiple posters, I see that you're taking all of the info into consideration. Just please stand up for yourself mama. I love my kiddos with all of my heart, hell, they ARE my heart, but I have been known to say, "We do NOT diss da MAMA!!" (nor do I allow them to disrespect anyone, including each other, but I am DA MAMA!!!







)


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## OGirlieMama (Aug 6, 2006)

I'm not sure what you're trying to get out of this post, Becca. The incident is past, and maybe you just needed to put it all out there to get it off your chest. I don't have much quibble with your description of you handled everything, except for the "telling both sides of the story to Daddy" part. And that may be some leftover weird feeling I have about your husband seeming strangely controlling after the whole cookie-in-the-hotel incident. (The internets never forget...








).

You refuted pretty much everyone's suggestions and assertions, so I think you don't really need or want advice on how to handle this in the future. Maybe it just felt better to write it all out so you can get past it?


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

After reading your post I was left with a sense of awe at how well you handled the whole thing. The running back to the dangerous part more than once could use a new strategy next time but really, with what little steam you had left, you did a remarkable job of self-control. It sounds like you just needed to vent!!

thismama:

Quote:

Some of the most strategic parents I know, who try every technique in a singsong voice, have the absolute most horrible kids
Where in the OP's post did it say she used a sing-song voice? Speaking like this (validating feelings etc )obviously doesn't jive with your style but you seem to have decided to label those who do as flaky, bad parents. Speaking in a sing-song voice while disciplining makes anyone look like a fool, no matter WHAT they say. It sounds like Envirobecca had one really bad experience. Since this was an unusual after-school experience her "technique" or way of parenting is obviously working quite well.


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## LisainCalifornia (May 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
Lisa in California wrote







hen EnviroKid was going to a home childcare and we were able to let him set his own schedule more, he stayed up past 11:00 every night and didn't wake until at least 8:00 in the morning. Not everybody is exactly like you. It's been over 2 years since he started going to this school, and we are still struggling to keep him on the earlier schedule. Talking of sources of stress here, imagine what it's like to have to leave the house every morning at the time when you'd like to be just waking up! That's how it is for every member of our family. But we just have to suck it up because enough people agree with you that, beginning next fall, he'll have to be AT SCHOOL at that time.









I see what you are saying--but I do have to get up very early--I have 3 kids in 3 different schools (elementary, jr. high, and high school). The first one starts school at 7:30 a.m., but the high school student is a cross country runner and has practice at 6:00 am. I am not a morning person either--but I am responsible for getting them where they need to be each day. I have to get up earlier than any of them to make breakfast and get dressed myself for work (I work when they are at school, so that I am there to pick them up after school at 2:25). It does suck and is tiring, but I think it is even more exhausting for my kids to be out at night and eating a late dinner. So I do understand the difficulty with schedules and having to get up early, believe me.

The thing is, if your preschooler was staying up way past 11:00 and then still getting up at 8:00--that is still not enough sleep, I don't think. Late dinners are hard on adults, but very hard on kids. I grew up in a late dinner eating family, and I remember feeling so hungry it was painful--and just worn out from waiting so long. So maybe my opinion on the matter is unfairly colored by my personal experience.

I realize you are doing the best you can--and it sounds like you just had a rough night with your little one. I too thought of the cookie stealing, and am glad you are not worried about your husband hearing that story.

Take care,
Lisa


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Honestly, I think sometimes it's possible to overthink things. He was having an off day. A very off day. You handled it well. You did a bit more talking than I would have, but that's probably your parenting style and overall it seems to be working.

I WOULD stash a snack in my bag in case my child got hungry (as in, if you missed the bus and it was then 7:45 instead of 6:45 when we got home). I used to have terrible trips home about once a week with dd. It took me about 3 weeks to figure out that those were the days they were having chili with beans. She HATES beans and was not eating lunch. They have a snack at 3 pm. I bring a snack for the car ride home (5-5:30). But she was still overly hungry and cranky.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I honestly refuse to work that hard to have a regular interaction with my child. Even things like 'You wish we were doing something different.' *Do you ever say that to someone else apart from your child?* I think just being real would go a long way here, being you, telling it like it is, saying No.

I do the same kind of talk (when I can manage it, it's less than I'd like) with my kids. Why? It WORKS. It works with my highly verbal highly dramatic 5 year old because she's so busy processing her own emotions that she can't 'hear' me if I don't do this. It works with my quiet introvert because it helps HIM to put his feelings into words. Often his feelings are so deeply buried that it helps. Two different kids, two different reasons to do this, but it works.

As for it not being the way that we talk to adults -- several people raised this point, or ones like it. The truth of the matter is we talk differently to children than we do to adults. We cannot assume the same level of understanding or the same level of control with our children that we can with adults. We assume more of a teaching role with our children.

Children react to our talk differently to us than adults do. When I tell a colleague that I'm sorry, I can't get something done today, they don't throw themselves on the floor and have a tantrum. When I tell my husband that I need 10 minutes to myself before I can talk about whatever he needs to talk about, he doesn't scream at me "No! You have to talk to me NOW!" If an adult did this sort of thing, I'd assume they had serious mental health issues. I don't make the same assumption about my kids!

My talk to my children is fairly 'adult-like' most of the time. But there are times when my children need help either in learning to express themselves appropriately or in understanding something that an adult would understand without explanation. I will change my talk to my kids then.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Becca, I hope that you gave yourself some down time and a few extra minutes of goofing off on the computer or some extra reading time with a good book, or whatever you like to do to relax! You earned it!

I think you did the best you could. Some days, no matter how hard we try, are going to go to crap, just like everyone little and big is going to blow their top from time to time. Nobody can make everything perfect ALL the time! As you said, he didn't seem tired or hungry, just for whatever reason full of P&V for that period of time.

Unless this becomes a very frequent occurance, I don't see any need to worry.

I will admit that I probably require/enforce a higher degree of obedience than probably 90 percent of my sister MDCers, but it sounds like your system of discipline typically works very well for EVERYONE in your family, but you just had one of those Terrible, No Good, Very Bad Days. So I hope you took a nice reward for yourself for not spinning out of control in a situation where it often happens to us parents!


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## VBMama (Jan 6, 2004)

OP - tough day! In regards to other posters who suggested physically restraining the child for the remainder of the trip, just wanted to tell you that I would not have been able to physically accomplish that with my oldest child at that age even if I wasn't carrying anything. I think you did pretty well given the circumstances and are much more patient than I could have been.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
I do the same kind of talk (when I can manage it, it's less than I'd like) with my kids. Why? It WORKS. It works with my highly verbal highly dramatic 5 year old because she's so busy processing her own emotions that she can't 'hear' me if I don't do this. It works with my quiet introvert because it helps HIM to put his feelings into words. Often his feelings are so deeply buried that it helps. Two different kids, two different reasons to do this, but it works.

As for it not being the way that we talk to adults -- several people raised this point, or ones like it. The truth of the matter is we talk differently to children than we do to adults. We cannot assume the same level of understanding or the same level of control with our children that we can with adults. We assume more of a teaching role with our children.

Children react to our talk differently to us than adults do. When I tell a colleague that I'm sorry, I can't get something done today, they don't throw themselves on the floor and have a tantrum. When I tell my husband that I need 10 minutes to myself before I can talk about whatever he needs to talk about, he doesn't scream at me "No! You have to talk to me NOW!" If an adult did this sort of thing, I'd assume they had serious mental health issues. I don't make the same assumption about my kids!

My talk to my children is fairly 'adult-like' most of the time. But there are times when my children need help either in learning to express themselves appropriately or in understanding something that an adult would understand without explanation. I will change my talk to my kids then.

I'm sure the "lots of talk" approach works for some kids, and in som circumstances, very well.

However, I learned through trial and error that with my DS, especially, too much talking made things much worse. Once he was locked into shouting and carrying on, talking just added stimulation, and the more words I used, the worse the whole thing got. It was like the stress of processing someone else's feelings on top of all his raw emotion just put him over the top.

Sometimes, when things are going badly, for some kids I think it can be better to step back, stop talking so much, and wait for the high emotions to subside before you talk it all out. With my DS, I could talk about the situation and feelings and brainstorm ideas for how things could go better -- after the situation was past. In the moment, I had to pick one very simple message ands tick to it. In the OP case, I'd probably have had to go with "We need to catch this bus. I want to get home to get dinner with daddy." "I know you're angry, but we need to catch this bus. We can't go to a restaurant, we need to catch this bus." Simple message, a few words, restated as necessary, recognizing feelings, but coming back to the simple message. Later there is plenty of time for "I know that didn't go like you hoped. You were disappointed..... etc etc etc"


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

I agree with those who said he was probably extra-hungry, maybe he didn't eat much at lunch that day or something. It would explain the restaurant requests and all that. I used to do what Lynn said, when we had a bus commute, I tried to keep extra snacks in case DS got extra-hungry on the commute.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Wow, Mama. You do this commute everyday?! And it usually goes well almost every day?! Pat yourself on the back, you're obviously Super Mama. Every kid has a bad day sometimes. If the commute usually happens smoothly, you can probably let go of a bad one every now and then. Kudos to you!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammastar2* 
Just a quick comment about the above - obviously things got dragged out too much on the one day, but not everyone has the option of getting home and having dinner on the table at 5:30! If no one's home until 6:45, well, that's just the way it is.

This. When I WOH, I didn't get home until 6:30. My ex may or may not have already been there (he was a furniture mover and could be off work anywhere from about noon to midnight). Generally, the earliest dinner got started was about 6:45, after I got out of my work clothes and figured out what I was doing in the kitchen...and maybe washed the necessary dishes/utensils, if I hadn't managed to get them done the night before, or that morning.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LisainCalifornia* 
That schedule just sounds very innapropriate for a 4 year old. I am over 40, and would be so hungry and tired if I didn't get home to eat till almost 8:00. Even your "typical" schedule (without being late) sounds way too late. My kids have always eaten dinner around 5:30, and bathtime is a few hours later. Then it is quiet resting time (like reading) before bed. I can't imagine not getting home to eat dinner till so late with them. I really think this can affect behavior negatively. I also thinking that sometimes we confuse our kids by talking too much, or giving them too many chances or choices. Sometimes it is better to just take a leadership tone and get on with the business of getting home.

I have 2 kids a 17 yo and a 4 yo and I have always been a working Momma, with my eldest I was a single Mama as well. I say this to say that IMO its really hard to eat dinner early when you work out of the home and don't get off work until 5 and have to get home. I am the director of the center I work at so I have a great deal of flexibility when it comes to leaving and only live 10 mins from my office...that said, an early dinner here is 6:30 and that's if I did a crockpot meal in the morning.

Generally 7:30 is dinner time in my house with bathtime happening at 8:15 or 8:30. What we do have though is a snack for my 4 yo when she gets home from daycare so that makes her less likely to melt down and my guess is that the OP should travel with a snack for her child.

I don't think a late dinner time is inappropriate though in anyway, different families have different schedules.

Shay


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
I agree with those who said he was probably extra-hungry, maybe he didn't eat much at lunch that day or something. It would explain the restaurant requests and all that. I used to do what Lynn said, when we had a bus commute, I tried to keep extra snacks in case DS got extra-hungry on the commute.

Yep. There are days when DD is just a pill all the way home from camp and half the afternoon, even though she was still working on afternoon snack when I picked her up -- and then I'll open her lunchbox to clean it out and discover she didn't eat any of her main protein food. I'll ask and she'll say "I was playing with Audrey and I didn't have time to finish it!" I've learned to have snacks stashed for trips, just in case -- preferably protein snacks like nuts or cheese.

That's not to say that all bad behavior is hunger-related! Sometimes they're just bored, or antsy, or maybe they had a bad interaction with another child or teacher and they're working it out in their heads, still. But with a schedule like that, and all the talk about food when you picked him up, I think a snack woudl have been the first thing on my mind.


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## prancie (Apr 18, 2007)

The one thing that really got my attention is the late hour you two get home and how long he is at preschool every day and how long it takes to get home. He's just 4 and preschool is not home, he doesn't get hardly any say over how is life goes at preschool. He was tired, hungry and really wishing for more power in his own life. I'm afraid that if this is the lifestyle that you are planning, then you will get days like that as a natural consequence. Consider a change.

ETA: And beyond all that, he is 4 and stuff like that happens with all 4 year olds. I don't think it's a predictor of anything.


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## forestrymom (Jul 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gsd1amommy* 
His commute home this evening would most certainly involve checking out these areas where he made a mess last night to make certain they are nice and tidy. Since he didn't clean up the mulch he threw and the sand he scattered, making a mess for others to clean up, he could take a look around these areas tonight to make sure they are ship shape.

If not, it wouldn't hurt him one bit to spend a few minutes cleaning up after someone else just as someone did after him. He could also scope out the flower beds he trampled through, make sure he did no damage to flowers that were paid for and planted by someone else. Actually, my child would have done this last night and had he damaged any plants, we would be replanting them tonight or offering to pay for the damage.

There were lots of opportunities to explore and experience the natural consequences of his actions but I think you missed them by getting into the pissing contest with him. I am stunned that a grown woman, a mother, no less, would argue with a four year old about who was going to be the first to report "bad behavior to daddy".

Really? You've never said something you later regretted to your children? You should get an award.









And as for late/long workdays, I can totally relate, Mama. We have meltdowns almost every night, because my dh and I work 10 hour days. I only work 4 of them, but for those 4 days, its really hard, both on us and on the kids. I'm impressed that you are generally eating by 7! I get home at around 6:30, and I try to have something easy for dinner the nights I work--usually something I've cooked previously that I'm reheating.

But, that's not your question, and it seems a lot of mamas here have missed the beat. You are asking about this particular day/afternoon. You get home everynight late, and you have dinner on nights you work late, and generally envirokid is not this ornery. So you are wondering what set him off and how you could have better reacted, right?

My guess is he was tired and hungry, or that he had something happen at school that day that was bugging him and he was taking it out on you. Your reactions are that of a tired working mama--its hard! (((HUGS)))

After the second "violation" my almost 4 year old would have been carried, or led by the hand, because she would have been endangering herself, regardless of the raucous she made. We wouldn't be playing games, and depending on how the rest of the ride went, I'm not sure I would be reading to her. Of course, if she calmed down and apologized, or wanted affection instead of to get mad, I would give her that. And ask her what was bothering her, as well as offering her some kind of snack (which is usually why she melts down).

As for him threatening to tell his father, I'm of the mind to just ignore it. Acknowledge that it was said, probably say, "Go ahead." but then forget it. We don't play tattle tale here and my dh would probably offer a hug but not really respond to the story anyway.


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## bnhmama (Nov 28, 2006)

So much good advice given here. I just want to chime in my agreement with those who pointed out that he really had just a little too much control in this situation.

This is something I've struggled with and I have to constantly remind myself-yes, we give them SOME control in appropriate ways but they should not be allowed total control in situations. They can't handle it.

It sounds like your little boy just spiraled more and more out as he lost control. At 4 years old, it's next to impossible that he's just going to be able to regain control himself. That's why we're here.









Again, I have struggled a lot with this and the direct approach works so much better for us. I also try to minimize words. Any typical situation goes like this: Tell child what to expect, tell child what I expect from them. Then during the situation if something goes wrong, I give one warning and then that's it. No negotiation. Chances are over because he's not making good choices and needs my help. That's how I try to look at it and it works sooooo well. And since I've been consistent with it, he reacts soooo much better because he knows what to expect from me. He's not trying to provoke me to reaction any more.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

I did feel defensive about some of the earlier advice, but I really am looking for help in feeling prepared if something like this ever happens again. The most helpful thing I have heard here is that it is "okay" for me to sieze control of the situation once it becomes apparent that EnviroKid cannot control himself; that is not being too ungentle, etc.

I also think that the suggestions to carry an "emergency snack" make a lot of sense, since there ARE times when he complains of hunger before we get home, although this wasn't one of them. Like other people's kids, some days he doesn't eat enough lunch.

Sunnmama wrote:

Quote:

That's why I brought an umbrella stroller. They fold down to nothing for space in the bus, and you can push your bags in them when dc is not using it (a huge benefit in and of itself)--but you have it for emergency containment. I'd ditch the thick book and ceramic lunchware before I'd ditch my umbrella stroller with an unpredictable preschooler and a long journey home.
I'm glad it worked for you and impressed that you were able to buckle it on a struggling kid. If he were smaller now, I'd try it--the expense of going out to lunch would be balanced by the peaceful trip home plus the fact that I LIKE going out to lunch







:--but he's already officially too heavy for the stroller. And in my few experiences with taking the stroller on the bus, I wouldn't say it folds down to "nothing": It's a good 3 feet long, it's heavy and unwieldy enough that I need one whole hand for carrying it, the corners of the frame are sharp so I have to be very careful not to bump it into myself or others, and on the models of bus with no luggage rack there is nowhere to put it except in my lap leaning against my face and that's if I'm lucky enough to get a seat. And did you miss the *47 steps* in our route? We'd have to change routes in a different place to avoid steps. But if this had happened two years ago, it would have been worth a try.

Quote:

All kids are different, and maybe running around would help some kids in that situation. It wouldn't have been helpful for my dd at that age; when she was out-of-control melting down, she needed us to take control very firmly. She needed the safety of boundaries and a quick exit (the ripping off the bandaid metaphor is perfect). We couldn't trust her to act safely when she was in such a state of mind.
That makes sense. I agree that his behavior BEFORE we got to the lawn already was such that I could have said, "I can't trust you to act safely," so it might have been best not to allow the running around. It certainly didn't seem to help much!

SophieKat wrote:

Quote:

I've found that even with my incredibly verbal, smart, intelligent 4 year old that when she's in destructo-cycle like this that the fewer words I use to get my point across the better.
Perhaps, instead of starting with the Bailey technique, it would get your point across in a more meaningful way to start with
"Do NOT throw sand at me." Maybe even following up with a consequence -- "if you continue to throw sand, you will have to be carried the rest of the way home."
Then, after your limit has been firmly established, move on to "hurting people does not get you what you want."
That makes sense.

Quote:

"It is not OK to throw sand. I will not read to you if you do that." You could even follow it up with "I am upset with the way you are acting. If you want me to read to you, you need to stop throwing things/walk nicely the rest of the way/whatever is most important at that point."
That way you're acknowledging what he wants (you to read) while reiterating the limit.
I understand what you mean about acknowledging and reiterating. I'm not so sure that refusing to read to him is a logical consequence. Yes, if he succeeded in throwing sand at my eyes, I might have so much eye pain that I would not be able/willing to read. But aside from that, the two things aren't connected, so this approach would boil down to, "If you won't do what I want, I won't do what you want, so there!" and I try to reserve that for times when I don't want to do the thing he wants...whereas reading to him on the bus is my #1 way of encouraging appropriate bus behavior, by motivating him to be quiet and still so he can hear the story. When he's already acting up, taking that away is likely to make him worse.

One day about a month ago, I got frustrated because he wouldn't stop interrupting while I was reading, so I put away the book and said I would not read to him for the rest of that bus ride. Then I spent the next 20 minutes (it was the perfect time







to get stuck in traffic) being incessantly nagged to read. And I WANTED to read to him--not only would it be more fun than being nagged, but I wanted to know what happened next in the story!--but he'd been pushing so many limits that morning already that I felt I HAD to hold firm. It was a miserable experience for me and the other passengers as well as EnviroKid. I kept to the principle of meaning what I say, but nothing else positive was gained from it.

OGirlieMama wrote:

Quote:

I don't have much quibble with your description of you handled everything, except for the "telling both sides of the story to Daddy" part. And that may be some leftover weird feeling I have about your husband seeming strangely controlling after the whole cookie-in-the-hotel incident.
Fair enough! I would not have brought up "telling Daddy" myself, but since EnviroKid did I felt it was reasonable for us both to tell him about it. What I would rather have done was walk in the door, announce that I needed a break from the kid because of his behavior (without detail) and go upstairs. I have done this sometimes before. Then, if after I've calmed down I still think it's important to tell EnviroDaddy all about it, I do that after EnviroKid has gone to bed.

Dandelionkid wrote:

Quote:

After reading your post I was left with a sense of awe at how well you handled the whole thing. The running back to the dangerous part more than once could use a new strategy next time but really, with what little steam you had left, you did a remarkable job of self-control.
Thanks! It wasn't easy. I really wanted to slap and spank him.









Lisa in California wrote:

Quote:

The thing is, if your preschooler was staying up way past 11:00 and then still getting up at 8:00--that is still not enough sleep, I don't think. Late dinners are hard on adults, but very hard on kids. I grew up in a late dinner eating family, and I remember feeling so hungry it was painful--and just worn out from waiting so long. So maybe my opinion on the matter is unfairly colored by my personal experience.
Yes, I think so. Did you get snacks at two-hour intervals between nap and dinner, plus an "appetizer" if dinner was not within 5 minutes of ready when you got home? My childhood best friend's family had dinner around 7:30 or 8:00 every night (prior to 1st grade, she had her bath and PJs with her dad while her mom was cooking, and went to bed right after eating) and it didn't seem to harm her; it was just what she was used to.

My son was staying up past 11:00 and getting up at 8:00 when he was a toddler who took 3 naps totalling 4-5 hours a day. That was his natural pattern. He was scaling back toward 1 nap when we started this schedule just after he turned 2. He now sleeps 9-10 hours at night and about 2 hours at nap.

Tigerchild wrote:

Quote:

Becca, I hope that you gave yourself some down time and a few extra minutes of goofing off on the computer or some extra reading time with a good book, or whatever you like to do to relax! You earned it!
Thanks!







I did not get that time until the next evening. EnviroKid clung to me for bedtime (he often does this when I've been very upset with him earlier in the day--I think he needs the closeness with me to rebuild his sense of security) and I intended to get up once he was asleep to wash the dishes, but I fell asleep. So the next night I prioritized relaxation time and then stayed up late to get the dang dishes done, which is not ideal, but it's better than not relaxing at all....

Savithny wrote:

Quote:

Sometimes, when things are going badly, for some kids I think it can be better to step back, stop talking so much, and wait for the high emotions to subside before you talk it all out. With my DS, I could talk about the situation and feelings and brainstorm ideas for how things could go better -- after the situation was past. In the moment, I had to pick one very simple message ands tick to it.
This sounds like a good idea. EnviroKid is very verbal, but at times he just stops listening well and stops making sense in what he says, and at those times less talk may be more effective.

Onemomentatatime wrote:

Quote:

Wow, Mama. You do this commute everyday?! And it usually goes well almost every day?! Pat yourself on the back, you're obviously Super Mama. Every kid has a bad day sometimes. If the commute usually happens smoothly, you can probably let go of a bad one every now and then.
Thanks! I do try to remind myself of that pretty often: It's a complicated thing we do each day, and most days it's a pleasant adventure in which we do NOT have any brushes with death or get mad at each other!

Forestrymom wrote:

Quote:

You are asking about this particular day/afternoon. You get home everynight late, and you have dinner on nights you work late, and generally envirokid is not this ornery. So you are wondering what set him off and how you could have better reacted, right?
Yes, exactly! I am not looking to revamp our entire lifestyle, which for the most part works well for us. He loves his school, so although I routinely wrack myself with guilt about how _I_ never had a 9-hour school day in my life, I can't see quitting my job as the solution to an occasional behavior problem on the commute.

Bnhmama wrote:

Quote:

Any typical situation goes like this: Tell child what to expect, tell child what I expect from them. Then during the situation if something goes wrong, I give one warning and then that's it. No negotiation. Chances are over because he's not making good choices and needs my help. That's how I try to look at it and it works sooooo well. And since I've been consistent with it, he reacts soooo much better because he knows what to expect from me. He's not trying to provoke me to reaction any more.
Yeah, it seems like when I've taken that approach, it does work better. It was easier when he was smaller. Now it is tiring to carry him one block and difficult to keep my balance carrying him downstairs even if he's cooperating; when he isn't, I am really afraid one or both of us will wind up seriously injured.


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