# Since we're on the subject of leaving kids alone...



## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

...when would you leave a child/teen in the car alone during a brief errand? What age? What about if you were still within sight/reach of the car (like returning library books to an outdoor bookdrop or using an outdoor vending machine)? Would it make a difference if the parking lot was crowded or empty? Would you leave the car running or off? Would you leave a young child in the car for a minute in your own driveway (if, say, you got the child strapped in & forgot something in the house)?


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Wes was about 9 when I would leave him in the car very briefly. I wouldn't go somewhere like WM or a busy place like that though.

I would never leave a child of any age alone in a running car.

Quote:

What about if you were still within sight/reach of the car (like returning library books to an outdoor bookdrop or using an outdoor vending machine)?
I wouldn't have a problem leaving a child of any age under those sercumstanses. as long as I could see the car and the doors were locked.

Quote:

Would you leave a young child in the car for a minute in your own driveway (if, say, you got the child strapped in & forgot something in the house)?
Yes I would.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy* 
...when would you leave a child/teen in the car alone during a brief errand? What age? What about if you were still within sight/reach of the car (like returning library books to an outdoor bookdrop or using an outdoor vending machine)? Would it make a difference if the parking lot was crowded or empty? Would you leave the car running or off? Would you leave a young child in the car for a minute in your own driveway (if, say, you got the child strapped in & forgot something in the house)?

This has come up before and I think you're going to find a majority of posts will be along the lines of "Hell No. I would NEVER leave my child in the car, even for a second!!"

*shrugs* I feel differently. My mom used to leave us in the car to run inside to pay for gas for example. We knew not to touch anything but the radio (and, if we'd been misbehaving, sometimes not even that much) But, that was like 15 years ago and thoughts on the subject have changed.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

In a locked car with the motor off:

Driveway, run in house to grab something; return cart at grocery store; grab mail from the mail box; outdoor book drop off; that kind of thing - any age at all. Tiny infant on up.

Wait while I pay gas inside, where I can see the car, maybe 6?

My dd has just turned 8 and maybe once or twice I've quickly run into a convenience store when she didn't want to go in.


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## mommariffic (Mar 18, 2009)

I've left my DD [2] in a locked car snoozing in her car seat directly in front of a coffee shop while I ran in to grab a cup. The store was empty, she was dead asleep, and I could see her/get to her if you know anything was to happen.

So, in "running in" errands like the library/whatever else I think as long as you can see your kid and get to them if there's an emergency, you're fine.

Just hanging in the car while whoever shops? I say 6+


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

There are laws around this issue too, especially with the increase of tragic child deaths when children are forgotten in the car. In Michigan it is illegal to leave a child alone in a vehicle without another passenger over the age of 12, in a situation that "may cause harm" or for a length of time that "may cause harm." The legistlation is very loose, so one officier could ticket you for leaving your child alone at the gas station, but another might not use it unless your child is alone in the summer in a hot car.

Many parents don't realize how drastically HOT it gets in a car in small amount of time, even on a mild day. We used a digital thermometer to track this (with a digital display outside the car) on a mild April day (temps in the upper 60's) the interior of the car was above 90 degrees in a about 20 minutes in the sun.

With these two considerations, I do leave my children in the car in the driveway, with the car off, NOT with the keys in the ignition, if I have to run back in the house. When my brother was about 2 he unbuckled, climbed into the front, and put the car in gear!! Driving the car through our privacy fence, which thankfully stopped him. So I'm super cautious about taking the keys in with me if I have to run back in!! I do not leave my kids in the car anywhere else. Once my daughter is above the legal age to be unattended (so 12 in Michigan) while I run into the gas station/bank, I dont' see it being an issue. But I won't risk a misdemenor charge for the 2 extra minutes it takes to unbuckle them!


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

So I'm too paranoid I guess lol. I once was too terrified to leave my then-9mo in the parked, not-running, locked car in an abandoned parking lot while I went less than 15 feet to drop off books, even though he was sleeping & in my sight & reach the whole time and I couldn't think of a possible negative event that could happen in those circumstances!! If I forgot something in the house, I would unbuckle him & bring him inside rather than leave him for a second.

When I was a kid my mom left me & my sisters in the (not running) car while she ran into a tiny store quickly. She could see the car from the store & we were very well-behaved. Well, minutes later, the car started rolling back toward a very busy 4-lane road!!!!! Several men came running out of a nearby liquor store & stopped the car from rolling into the street. I remember it so vividly!! So I'm guessing that's where my fear comes from. I'm glad to get different points of view on this (although I'm sure the "never ever ever leave them" posters are coming lol).


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy* 
...when would you leave a child/teen in the car alone during a brief errand? What age?

Whenever they are old enough to walk down the street without me.

Quote:

What about if you were still within sight/reach of the car (like returning library books to an outdoor bookdrop or using an outdoor vending machine)?
Any age, in a locked vehicle, with me holding the keys.

Quote:

Would it make a difference if the parking lot was crowded or empty?
No.

Quote:

Would you leave the car running or off?
Off. No way would I leave the keys in there.

Quote:

Would you leave a young child in the car for a minute in your own driveway (if, say, you got the child strapped in & forgot something in the house)?
Yes.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovemyavery* 
There are laws around this issue too, especially with the increase of tragic child deaths when children are forgotten in the car. In Michigan it is illegal to leave a child alone in a vehicle without another passenger over the age of 12, in a situation that "may cause harm" or for a length of time that "may cause harm." The legistlation is very loose, so one officier could ticket you for leaving your child alone at the gas station, but another might not use it unless your child is alone in the summer in a hot car.

I remember a story where a mom had left her sleeping baby in the car while she walked with her kids to donate money to the Salvation Army guy at Walmart. It was COLD (may have been snowing...I don't remember). She didn't want to wake up the baby, bundle him up to walk 15 feet, and then have to strap him back in. She could see the car the entire time (it was parked alongside the store) Anyway, a police officer arrested her. She had to call her husband to come and pick up her children... IMO That was a little extreme because I would have done the same thing.

That being said, when DH and I are out one of us always stays in the car with the baby...but that's because he gets LIVID if you leave him by himself. (If he doesn't know someone is in the car he starts bellowing) And, I know that there are people that dial 911 the second you walk away from the car...


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## honey-lilac (Jun 30, 2009)

Depends on personality. When I was... about 6 and up I would be left in the car for up to hours at a time while my parents shopped. If the car got hot, I would open the door a crack for a minute to let the hot air out, or I'd have the window open a crack and they'd park in the shade. I would read. It NEVER occurred to me to get out and wander, or to try to drive, or anything. The most that would happen is that I would get bored, but even that was rare because I'd have a ton of books with me. Honestly that was more fun for me than going in to the places my parents frequented every weekend (antique stores, shopping trips for my dad, etc.).

With my kids, well they're still too young for that anyway, they're only toddlers, but I have a feeling I wouldn't do the same. Simply because they don't have the same personality I did. I was always very obedient - from toddler on up - and tended to be lost in my own world. DS has a very different personality - doesn't really care what I say, and if I turn my back for a second he's getting into trouble a million times a day. DD isn't quite the initator but follows him in everything. I mean they MAY grow into some impulse control, but I think because of their personalities I won't let them alone in the car until they can prove to be, well, trustworthy. Plus I don't think I'd be the kind of parent who would spend every weekend doing stuff for myself and ignoring my kids. I read about some kids who would be set to sleep in the car like every night while their parents went drinking at the local bar. That's sad.

Honestly what I fear the most is a busy meddler who calls the cops on me for a harmless situation. Where we live there is no official law about age to leave them alone, and for example it would be SO much easier to do a "running in" errand by myself - take 2 minutes, tops, alone, whereas with my sensory seeking, tantrumming toddlers, it takes at least 20 to get them in and out of the car etc, strangers staring at me as I try to lug two kids around. Or standing in line at the post office with two kids who are grabbing everything and screaming and crying and trying to mail a package or two, vs. being able to park RIGHT OUTSIDE the picture window of the office and watching them happily play with toys from right there. Right now I would feel safe leaving them alone for up to... maybe 10 minutes or so (they can't get out of their carseats yet) and they would entertain each other. It would be SO MUCH EASIER. The chances of someone calling the cops on me scare me too much though.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kaleanani* 
Depends on personality. When I was... about 6 and up I would be left in the car for up to hours at a time while my parents shopped. If the car got hot, I would open the door a crack for a minute to let the hot air out, or I'd have the window open a crack and they'd park in the shade. I would read. It NEVER occurred to me to get out and wander, or to try to drive, or anything. The most that would happen is that I would get bored, but even that was rare because I'd have a ton of books with me. Honestly that was more fun for me than going in to the places my parents frequented every weekend (antique stores, shopping trips for my dad, etc.).

I could have written this post


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

I leave my 3.5 and almost 8 year old in the car to run in a buy a newspaper or pay for gas or something like that, that only takes minutes and I can see the car. I do leave my car running, with the doors locked so the temperature stays the same in the car.


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## Mandynee22 (Nov 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovemyavery* 

With these two considerations, I do leave my children in the car in the driveway, with the car off, NOT with the keys in the ignition, if I have to run back in the house. When my brother was about 2 he unbuckled, climbed into the front, and put the car in gear!! Driving the car through our privacy fence, which thankfully stopped him. So I'm super cautious about taking the keys in with me if I have to run back in!! I do not leave my kids in the car anywhere else. Once my daughter is above the legal age to be unattended (so 12 in Michigan) while I run into the gas station/bank, I dont' see it being an issue. But I won't risk a misdemenor charge for the 2 extra minutes it takes to unbuckle them!

Is that even possible with today's cars and carseats? DS(3) is in a 5pt harness and can't get himself out. And I can't get my car in gear unless my foot is on the brake and I move the shift thing with my finger on the side button at the same time. I'm pretty sure he isn't tall enough to even get the brake down while moving the shift.


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alyantavid* 
I can see the car.

I think that makes the real difference. If the car is locked, and I have a full view of it and am confident that if anyone approached the car I would be able to get there within a few seconds, I feel pretty comfortable. I would not be comfortable if I couldn't see the car at all times, unless my kid was old enough to go in the store by himself / walk down the street by himself / etc.


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## Thalia the Muse (Jun 22, 2006)

I've been leaving my daughter in the car occasionally, at her request, since she was seven. She knows how to unlock the doors and get out if she needs to, and it's only when I've run into a store to get a particular item, and I'm parked right out front -- she knows which store I'm in, knows my full name and my cellphone number, and is not the kind of kid who's going to release the parking brake or wander off across the parking lot. Mostly, she hangs out and reads.

She is also allowed to walk over to a nearby friend's house unaccompanied and see if the friend wants to play. If she was a different kid I might have different rules -- but my brother and I regularly sat in the car and listend to the radio while my parents grocery-shopped, and it just seems really far-fetched that catastrophe will ensue. No one can get in; she can get out; and she knows exactly where I am and how to find me.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Never...and by the time you start thinking they are old enough...I seriously don't get why you can't bring them with you?

I suppose if there were a couple of kids in the car all of babysitting age, maybe they wouldn't want to go with you so you could leave them there.

My teen sister has often stayed in the car while I go run my errand b/c DD fell asleep.

Other than that...???


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## honey-lilac (Jun 30, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 
Never...and by the time you start thinking they are old enough...I seriously don't get why you can't bring them with you?


No offense, but I don't get that line of thinking. How are they going to learn how to be alone if they're never alone? What I mean is... if they're never left alone, I'm sure at some point there will be a time when they do things on their own. Are they going to be under adult supervision until they move out to college/their own place? Presumably not, but where's the line drawn?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 
Never...and by the time you start thinking they are old enough...I seriously don't get why you can't bring them with you?

With an older kid, because they want to wait in the car. Often because they're reading and don't want to put their book down, IME.

With a younger kid, for just a second to put a cart away or something, because it's hard to navigate a toddler and a cart, because the parking lot is full of moving cars and more dangerous than a locked parked car, because it's freezing cold outside and the car is warmer.

Those are a few examples.


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## honey-lilac (Jun 30, 2009)

ESPECIALLY the case when you have more than one child. With one, I suppose you can just grab them up - try navigating two (or more) squirmy or tantrumming/spaghetti-legging toddlers or preschoolers around a parking lot safely, making sure they don't dart off. And if you have to stand in line with them, trying to grab candy or treats or whatever. You have to weigh what trips that hassle all is worth. I mean, you _have_ to grocery shop, you _have_ to run certain errands. Life can't stop if you have kids. You deal with that the best you can. But if you don't have to go through all that for a run into the gas station when you could otherwise just see them through the window the whole time?

Or a quick run into the library (to pick up a hold, self-check out, with the car parked right in front - never more than 20 feet away and under 120 seconds for all of that)? If I take the kids in the library - well, I can't. They will run around screaming or throw a holy fit when they have to leave because they want to play in the children's section. It's a minimum of a 15 minute trip and that's as long as I'm dragging them around with them screaming, and then trying to get back to the car while they're noodling and fighting the whole way, then taking half an hour to calm down from the disappointment. If I try to comply with their wishes to let them run around screaming and pulling books off shelves, I can't see being a welcome patron very long. Compare that to me parking right in front of the door, telling them I'll be right back, getting the books, and they barely notice I'm gone, they're still happily absorbed in their books or toys. Night and day difference of stress level for all three of us.

As long as it's not an unsafe situation (save some catastrophic crazy accident happening) I don't see what's wrong with leaving the kids in the car if it's visible, in a safe area, safe temps, kids unable to leave the car, unafraid, and only for a few minutes. In theory. The legal part is what stops me most of the time.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

I've always been OK with leaving my kids in the car in the driveway while I unloaded groceries or loaded up the car or ran in to grab my keys/wallet/whatever that I forgot.

I've also always been OK with running into pay for gas or other super quick errands while the boys were sleeping, or if their awak for that matter. I don't leave the car running though









When will I be OK with leaving them in the car while I run in to actually shop? IDK, maybe 5 or 6? Something like that.


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## nola79 (Jun 21, 2009)

I would feel ok leaving them in the car in my own driveway, yes.
My 7 year old son stays in the car, his choice, if I am returning movies/running in a coffee shop, little errands like that, where I can see him/the car, the car is locked and I have the keys. He knows where I am, can see me, etc.
Even though I was left in the car when I was young so my mom could grocery shop, or whatever, I think these are different times and I would not leave him in the car for that.


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## atreyyena (Oct 27, 2007)

I would and do leave my kids alone for a few moments.....to drop off movies, books, to run carts back or get stuff from the house, to get/pay for gas, and usually all with the car on because I like in Alaska and most of the year they'd freeze if I didn't. I only leave the car when it's running if they're buckled in though.

I guess to me it's a matter of practicality; do I get two kids out so they can run around anywhere, or leave them in and get the errands done faster?

One of the most extreme things I had happen to me, my first son fell asleep in the car, so I rolled down my windows slightly and sat in the car and read my book rather than waking up a grouchy infant. After a while this white haired old lady comes up and wants to make sure I knew my son was asleep behind me, as though I'd forgotten him or something. I had to roll the window down so she could hear me, and in the midst of it all, she woke up my son! grrrrr.........annoying. Lol.


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## Ornery (May 21, 2007)

I think everyone has a different level of comfort on this type of thing and every kid is different.

The only universal rule I've seen people to agree on is that it is not okay to leave small children in the car for long periods of time on extreme weather days. The interpretation of small children, long periods of time and extreme weather seems to be different for everyone.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *atreyyena* 
One of the most extreme things I had happen to me, my first son fell asleep in the car, so I rolled down my windows slightly and sat in the car and read my book rather than waking up a grouchy infant. After a while this white haired old lady comes up and wants to make sure I knew my son was asleep behind me, as though I'd forgotten him or something. I had to roll the window down so she could hear me, and in the midst of it all, she woke up my son! grrrrr.........annoying. Lol.

Annoying! We don't have a car living in a public-transport city, so I don't know what I would do if it were just me and the kids, but I do leave sleeping kids with a grandparent or stay in the car myself while my parents go into stores. As long as an adult is waiting in the car too, I figure the kids won't get too hot/cold. I wouldn't bother to answer somebody harrassing you about sitting in your own car. Just nod and wave her on.


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## jgale (Jan 21, 2003)

Does it seem stupid to anyone besides me that what most people are afraid of is that someone will call the police? Gosh, don't folks have anything better to do? Don't the police have anything better to do?

Our mini-van has tinted rear windows YAY, so I don't have to worry about do-gooders. I have left my grouchy 6 year old in the car while I have gone shopping for about 15 minutes. Gasp. I take the keys with me. My 3 year old, because of her personality, I can't imagine leaving her for a long long time.

I know that 'free range mama' lady isn't always so popular here but I really like her a lot and she says that is you think something is safe, you should allow your kid to do it even if it violates the norms of your community because otherwise this kind of insanity of the police being called because a child was left in the car alone for 3 seconds will never change.


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## Thalia the Muse (Jun 22, 2006)

I pretty much agree with that -- although if it REALLY violates the norm of the community, you might want to give it a good reconsidering ... maybe there's a reason none of the other kids you know are allowed to jump off the roof ...









Seriously, though -- the norm among many of my kid's friends' parents seems to be that 9-year-olds are not allowed to cross one quiet street, in the middle of the day on a weekend, to visit a friend on the next block. They have never been outside except in the company of an adult.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Just a couple days ago I had to drop off some paperwork at the Social Services office, of all places, and the parking lot is really far from the building and I knew how fast it would be, so I pulled up to the front of the office, left the keys in the ignition (can't turn off the car in the pickup/dropoff lane), ran in with teh papers already labeled and enveloped and everything and dropped them in the box, and ran back outside. The whole thing took probably 45 seconds and I could see 2yo ds the entire time since it is a glass front building and the drop box is right inside the door. But I STILL got a dirty look from the workers and now I'm regretting it because what if they wrote down my license plate or something?

I felt comfortable doing it in that scenario, but like pp's have mentioned, there are a lot of 911-happy people out there. FWIW in any other situation (even paying for gas) I would never ever leave the keys in teh car with the kid. I'd be worried about someone jumping in and taking off with ds still in the backseat.


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## honey-lilac (Jun 30, 2009)

Speaking of crossing streets... My mother wouldn't let me cross a quiet, country lane (where you could see traffic, maybe one car an hour, for about half a mile in either direction) when I was 11 years old because "I was always daydreaming and wouldn't notice a car." Yeah. Right. They made the schoolbus take the long way to turn around to pick me up on my side of the street. The schoolbus driver would call me a baby and say that we were late to school every day because my mommy wouldn't let me cross the street. Talk about the bullying that ensued. It was humiliating. And there was NO reason for me not to cross the street at that age. Just ridiculous.

OK, tangent over.


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## Thalia the Muse (Jun 22, 2006)

I just wonder, with a few of the kids I know, what's going to happen when they go off to college and have to cross a street to get from the dorm to the dining hall -- they'll haeve no idea what to do!


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy* 
Just a couple days ago I had to drop off some paperwork at the Social Services office, of all places, and the parking lot is really far from the building and I knew how fast it would be, so I *pulled up to the front of the office, left the keys in the ignition (can't turn off the car in the pickup/dropoff lane), ran in with teh papers already labeled and enveloped and everything and dropped them in the box, and ran back outside. The whole thing took probably 45 seconds* and I could see 2yo ds the entire time since it is a glass front building and the drop box is right inside the door. But I STILL got a dirty look from the workers and now I'm regretting it because what if they wrote down my license plate or something?

I felt comfortable doing it in that scenario, but like pp's have mentioned, there are a lot of 911-happy people out there. *FWIW in any other situation (even paying for gas) I would never ever leave the keys in teh car with the kid. I'd be worried about someone jumping in and taking off with ds still in the backseat*.


Honestly, I don't see the difference in the two scenarios you mentioned above - you were just as likely to have someone run off with your car while dropping off papers as you would paying for gas as both would probably take the same amount of time. I have no problem running in to pay for gas/drop off library books but NEVER with the keys in thee ignition or with the car running.


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## cristeen (Jan 20, 2007)

I have no problem leaving my infant asleep in his car seat while I park the car in the fire lane and hit the ATM, or run inside to pay for gas, with the car locked.

And parked in my driveway, keys in it, ignition running while I run inside to grab my purse, unlock the garage door, etc. If I don't leave the car running I'll get a parking ticket for blocking the sidewalk.


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

Scary how many of you would leave your children in the car alone.

My mom never did this because there was a kidnapping in the next city. They found the girl 8 year later living in a trailer park, abused with her hair dyed.

She was with her brother in the car (school aged) and someone knocked on the window (they were outside a hardware store) and said that their dad had fallen down and had sent him out to get them. When she opened the door, they grabbed her, not him and didn't know her fate for another 8 years...

This woman, who changed her name and photos of her were not shown, is now my age (???) So this happened in the 70's. So the idea of leaving any child in a car is completely outside my reasoning...

Wish I were a better googler! Worse since the girl in the story above was kidnapped from the same city Jaycee Dugard was found (so until I remember the exact name...) So there's my excuse for not providing a link.

I also wish I could find the video of the woman who was stabbed to death outside a 7-11. This was a few years ago and I admit, an extreme example. She had left her baby in the car and this guy tries to get her keys just to steal the car. Of course she fought him. I would fight to the death too under the same circumstances. But it was so tragic because if she had had her baby with her, she could have just given the jerk her keys and called the police once he was gone. But that's not what happened...

Look at all the incidents on these sites. This is a big risk and not surprisingly, so many parents underestimate it;

http://www.harrisonshope.org/

http://www.kidsandcars.org/

Crazy stuff happens. Picking up my kids from school one day, a child managed to get the keys and lock herself in while the mom was talking to some other parents. My own kids have released the break leaning forward to get gum from a front compartment (yes, it's stick).

Kids just don't have a very good sense of danger. Stick your head out of the car and wave to strangers? Why not. Play with the controls? Sleeping kids wake up. Toddlers don't send out announcements ahead of time letting you know that they can undo their seat belts... This stuff happens _fast_.

I have to pick up my little one and then wait at the older one's school. She always wants to go to the car, even in bad weather. I try to park so that I can see my older two as they come out. _STILL_ with me _RIGHT THERE_, you'd be amazed how many stupid things she'll do (she's just 6). Alone, no way! That kid stays away from my car until she enters college! (okay, maybe not _quite_ that long...)

Organize yourself so you aren't in the position of leaving your child alone in the car. Husband home early? Friend nearby? Recruit them to baby sit and get it all done. Hire a regular baby sitter and plan to do it all in that time slot. Another trick is to try to do everything possible in one place. I go to the dry cleaners next to the grocery store, etc. I try not to be too "scattered" so it's "worth my while" to get them out of the car. Drive throughs are good, and you'd be amazed how many places will bring things to your car.

For a small baby, even toddler, get a good baby carrier. I could slide a sleeping baby in or out of a car seat or stroller, no problem. I had a ring sling but there are others that work this well.

At my dd's daycare, kids were being left in cars all the time. I went into the director who just didn't want to hear it. So I told her;
ONE MORE KID I FIND ALONE IN A CAR AND I'M CALLING THE POLICE.

Well, guess what. I didn't see _one more_ kid in a car for the next two years my child went to that day care. They're probably still scared of that Crazy American Woman Who Will Call The Police to this day!


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## honey-lilac (Jun 30, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl* 
Organize yourself so you aren't in the position of leaving your child alone in the car. Husband home early? Friend nearby? Recruit them to baby sit and get it all done. Hire a regular baby sitter and plan to do it all in that time slot. Another trick is to try to do everything possible in one place. I go to the dry cleaners next to the grocery store, etc. I try not to be too "scattered" so it's "worth my while" to get them out of the car.

For a small baby, even toddler, get a good baby carrier. I could slide a sleeping baby in or out of a car seat or stroller, no problem.

Your baby must have been a good sleeper.







Mine would often wake up if the car paused for a stoplight. Never mind being picked up and put into a baby carrier.

And what's your suggestion for someone who doesn't have a husband, family, or friends nearby and can't afford a babysitter, so she HAS to bring her kids on EVERY errand? I imagine that if a woman had access to that sort of a social support, they wouldn't be taking the kids along on every random errand.

I'm not trying to minimize the horror of a kidnapping, or a random stabbing. Those are horrific incidents. But then what of the horrible random crimes where strangers break into homes? Or the horrible cases where children get sexually molested at (reputable) daycares? Or, or, or. It's one thing to take reasonable safety precautions; it's another to constantly live in fear.

So says me the hypocrite who refuses to fly on planes because what if it crashes...


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kaleanani* 
It's one thing to take reasonable safety precautions; it's another to constantly live in fear.

Exactly.

I think statistically it is safer to leave my kid in the car, in my sight, while I crpss the parking lot, than to risk her getting hit by a car while I carry her across the parking lot.

I mean, even if I cowered inside my house and never went out, safety is never a guarantee.

A kid being kidnapped out of a car is much more rare than a kid being hit by a car while walking or being carried.


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## akwifeandmomma (Aug 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy* 
...when would you leave a child/teen in the car alone during a brief errand? What age? What about if you were still within sight/reach of the car (like returning library books to an outdoor bookdrop or using an outdoor vending machine)? Would it make a difference if the parking lot was crowded or empty? Would you leave the car running or off? Would you leave a young child in the car for a minute in your own driveway (if, say, you got the child strapped in & forgot something in the house)?

I do these things with children of any age in a locked vehicle turned off. I take my keys and lock the vehicle with the fob. I live in Alaska, so no overheating concerns here, and it's rarely cold enough that they'd freeze in the few seconds to minutes I'd be away. I'll return movies, library books, drop a letter in a box, pay for gas, drop off donations, buy a newspaper, stop by a friend's home to pick up/drop something off, etc., etc... all things I need to leave the car to do and I'm not going to unbuckle everyone to do them.

I leave my kids in their seats in the van in my own driveway or open garage frequently, too.

These threads always seem to end up with two distinct camps - the "OHMYGOSH! NEVER! How COULD you! Tsk tsk tsk!" side, and the "Eh, there's risk in everything we do, we've weighed it out and are comfortable with our choice." peeps.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

There is no reason for me to organize my life around something so incredibly unlikely. And everything we do has other consequences than the one we intend. I don't want my children growing up afraid like that. I don't want them feeling incapable of something so little as sitting alone in a car for two minutes. Or worried that everyone who walks past is going to break into the car and take them. It's ridiculous. The world is not so dangerous.


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
There is no reason for me to organize my life around something so incredibly unlikely. And everything we do has other consequences than the one we intend. I don't want my children growing up afraid like that. I don't want them feeling incapable of something so little as sitting alone in a car for two minutes. Or worried that everyone who walks past is going to break into the car and take them. It's ridiculous. The world is not so dangerous.

If you convince yourself of this, congratulations. What are you "teaching" your children by leaving them in the car? This is not a valid reason for doing something unsafe.

It's not about living in fear, it's about being _realistic_ about the dangers and just making a habit of not doing unsafe things like this. I live far away from friends and family with a dh who travels a lot. I didn't leave my kids in the car alone. Period. It serves no purpose and yes, slightly inconvenient.

Safety for me is a habit. I worked in a profession where there is very little risk but we were ready for it, if it happened. It wasn't about paranoia. It was about simply doing things in a safe way.

Children left in a car are simply being put in harm's way. Labelling those of us who don't do this as "paranoid" or somehow not teaching our children something (I don't know what but whatever) is simply justifying it in your own head. I lock my door when I go out. I don't put hot things on the side of the stove. I really don't think that there is a big risk to my child but I try to have systematic habits which keep my child out of harm's way.

Hopefully the message is getting through to some of you. To those of you who think this is perfectly safe, I simply hope nothing bad happens. This is a really unnecessary risk and one that responsible parents shouldn't do. Throw insults to those of us who don't leave our children alone in cars but that wont change that fact that it's not a smart thing to do.

If you're standing there with your cash or dry cleaning, only to see the police around your car, you'll going to really, really hate yourself.

It's just not worth the risk...


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl* 

Hopefully the message is getting through to some of you. To those of you who think this is perfectly safe, I simply hope nothing bad happens. This is a really unnecessary risk and one that responsible parents shouldn't do. Throw insults to those of us who don't leave our children alone in cars but that wont change that fact that it's not a smart thing to do.

I can't call you paranoid but you can call me irresponsible?

Really, there is no danger to leaving a child in a locked car within eyeshot for a minute.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl* 
To those of you who think this is perfectly safe, I simply hope nothing bad happens.

Nothing about life is "perfectly safe." If we all worried about everything that "might" happen, our children would grow up in bubbles.

When my kids learned to ride bikes, there was potential for danger. When they walked somewhere by themselves for the first time, there was potential for danger. When they played at someone else's home, there was potential for danger. Never mind swimming at the beach, using a trampoline, or skateboarding. My oldest is learning to *drive* right now.









Safety is a habit for me, as well. Excessive worrying is not.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl* 
Hopefully the message is getting through to some of you. To those of you who think this is perfectly safe, I simply hope nothing bad happens. This is a really unnecessary risk and one that responsible parents shouldn't do. Throw insults to those of us who don't leave our children alone in cars but that wont change that fact that it's not a smart thing to do.

If you're standing there with your cash or dry cleaning, only to see the police around your car, you'll going to really, really hate yourself.

It's just not worth the risk...

There is also the chance that your child could be hit by a car while walking through the parking lot with you - nothing in life is risk free.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
Nothing about life is "perfectly safe." If we all worried about everything that "might" happen, our children would grow up in bubbles.

When my kids learned to ride bikes, there was potential for danger. When they walked somewhere by themselves for the first time, there was potential for danger. When they played at someone else's home, there was potential for danger. Never mind swimming at the beach, using a trampoline, or skateboarding. My oldest is learning to *drive* right now.









Safety is a habit for me, as well. Excessive worrying is not.

A *HUGE* Yeah that! Random kidnapping is extremely, excessively unlikely. Oh yes, it happens. But how often, really? We hear about *every* case in the US these days thanks to CNN, MSNBC, etc. And just how many random kidnappings actually happen? 1 or 2 a *YEAR*. Maybe. Just not something I'm going to spend *any* time worrying about - totally *not* worth the stress!!


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

I was born into a world where mothers left their babes in prams outside the grocery store to do their shopping. There were benches out there for older children to sit on. My mother has a picture of me in a line up of other community children outside the local grocery store. She also used to bundle me up in the winter, put me in the pram and stick me outside in the sun to nap







. The fresh air was supposed to be good for my lungs.

To answer the question in the OP: I started leaving my 2 when the oldest was around 5ish and the youngest 2.5 ish. By leaving, I mean in the car, strapped in with the door locked while I ran to the letter or book drop off or just inside the door of a business to pay for something where I was in full view of the car.

Now that they are almost 4 and 7.5, I am comfortable leaving them in the car while I run in to pay for gas or get the mail out of the PO box. I'm not at the stage where I'm comfortable leaving them to go into the grocery store or somewhere where I can't see the car.

I've left them strapped in in our driveway (asleep) since they were newborns. If they were sleeping soundly and I didn't want to wake them, I'd park in the shade (in summer) with the windows open and find some yard work to occupy me until they woke. Alternately, I'd park the car in front of the kitchen window and do dishes while they slept and I could keep a constant eye on them.


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl* 
Children left in a car are simply being put in harm's way.

You know, you could subsititute many things in that sentence and it would still be perfectly true. Children allowed to live in cities are simply being put in harm's way. Children allowed to eat non-organic produce are simply being put in harm's way. Children allowed to play outside where there are trees are simply being put in harm's way. Children who have pets are simply being put in harm's way. Children whose parents have woodstoves are simply being put in harm's way.

Being pregnant is a risk. Giving birth comes with risks. Living life in general is a calculated risk. It is our job as parents to decide which risk is riskier and which risk is less so. That _is_ life.

Quote:

Hopefully the message is getting through to some of you. To those of you who think this is perfectly safe, I simply hope nothing bad happens. *This is a really unnecessary risk and one that responsible parents shouldn't do.* Throw insults to those of us who don't leave our children alone in cars but that wont change that fact *that it's not a smart thing to do.*

If you're standing there with your cash or dry cleaning, only to see the police around your car, you'll going to really, really hate yourself.

It's just not worth the risk...
You'll probably find that in life, parents who are told they are deliberately putting their children in harm's way and that they are responsible are going to be pretty defensive. Especially if they believe you are being wrong and judgemental.

I don't think I am putting my children in harm's way by leaving them in a locked car for literally less than a 5 minute period. You do. We disagree. I am grateful that you do not make the laws concerning this







.


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## MJB (Nov 28, 2009)

I leave my children in the car if they are together. They lock the doors and wait for me. They ask to wait in the car if the choice is be dragged into the store for five minutes or stay in the car and read/draw on the magnadoodle/chat with each other.
I'd leave either of them in the car alone if I could see it the whole time and was just paying for gas/drop a book in the library box/etc.
Of course I'd leave them in the car in our own driveway. I'd also let them play in the back yard, get the mail, or go get something out of the car. What's the difference?


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

We normally don't drive. But once, DH took DD out in my dad's car, opened the back door and got DD strapped into her carseat, meanwhile setting the car keys on the seat. Then he shut that door and walked to the driver's side, where he discovered that the car automatically locks the doors.

DD couldn't get out of her seat to open the door, DH couldn't get in. He had to wait for my dad to call the locksmith and then them to get there. Not long really, 15 minutes maybe? And it wasn't hot out.

A lady came by and said that DD shouldn't be left in the car. He laughed and said he was waiting for the locksmith, and was not trying to leave her there. What more could he do? And thank goodness he had his phone. I can see the same happening with a purse so you don't have your phone either and have to go in to use a pay phone.

Just pointing out that it isn't always so simple, but it might not require the police! First step should always be being polite IMO.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom* 
We normally don't drive. But once, DH took DD out in my dad's car, opened the back door and got DD strapped into her carseat, meanwhile setting the car keys on the seat. Then he shut that door and walked to the driver's side, where he discovered that the car automatically locks the doors.

DD couldn't get out of her seat to open the door, DH couldn't get in. He had to wait for my dad to call the locksmith and then them to get there. Not long really, 15 minutes maybe? And it wasn't hot out.

A lady came by and said that DD shouldn't be left in the car. He laughed and said he was waiting for the locksmith, and was not trying to leave her there. What more could he do? And thank goodness he had his phone. I can see the same happening with a purse so you don't have your phone either and have to go in to use a pay phone.

Just pointing out that it isn't always so simple, but it might not require the police! First step should always be being polite IMO.


I did that just a couple days ago! I had my cellphone and laptop (we don't have a desktop) in my bag in the car. Buckled in DD, who had locked the doors w/o me noticing. I tossed the keys onto the front seat (bad bad habit) and shut her door.

Only by the freakiest freak incident did I have DH's keys in my pocket. He apparently had grabbed the spare set to his car that morning. I mean, it was the middle of the day...I don't think ANY of my neighbors were home. No phone, no way back into the house (deadbolt on the back and front).

AGH! Reliving the horror!

Ok I'll stop rambling now haha.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl* 
If you convince yourself of this, congratulations. What are you "teaching" your children by leaving them in the car? This is not a valid reason for doing something unsafe.

It's not about living in fear, it's about being _realistic_ about the dangers and just making a habit of not doing unsafe things like this. I live far away from friends and family with a dh who travels a lot. I didn't leave my kids in the car alone. Period. It serves no purpose and yes, slightly inconvenient.

Safety for me is a habit. I worked in a profession where there is very little risk but we were ready for it, if it happened. It wasn't about paranoia. It was about simply doing things in a safe way.

Children left in a car are simply being put in harm's way. Labelling those of us who don't do this as "paranoid" or somehow not teaching our children something (I don't know what but whatever) is simply justifying it in your own head. I lock my door when I go out. I don't put hot things on the side of the stove. I really don't think that there is a big risk to my child but I try to have systematic habits which keep my child out of harm's way.

Hopefully the message is getting through to some of you. To those of you who think this is perfectly safe, I simply hope nothing bad happens. This is a really unnecessary risk and one that responsible parents shouldn't do. Throw insults to those of us who don't leave our children alone in cars but that wont change that fact that it's not a smart thing to do.

If you're standing there with your cash or dry cleaning, only to see the police around your car, you'll going to really, really hate yourself.

It's just not worth the risk...

Do you have the numbers on children who are hit and killed by cars vs. children who are kidnapped from cars? What about children who are hurt by tipping shopping carts? What about children who are stolen from stores?

Perhaps if Adam's parents had left him strapped in the car with a book, he would not have been kidnapped out of that department store?


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## maryeliz (Oct 27, 2005)

There are so many factors that play into a judgment of when it is safe to leave a child in the care that I would say it is impossible for me to come up with a strict set of rules.

However, while we are on the subject of potential risks I will say that as a child I was alone in the car twice when it rolled. I spent a lot of time sitting in the car alone as a kid. I usually read and these are the only scary incidents I had. The first time I was an infant so I have no memory. The second time I was about five. My mom left me in the car while she ran in to pay for gas. I rolled about halfway across a parking lot that seemed really flat (I hadn't touched or messed with the brake at all). So do secure the parking brake always, and teach older kids how to pull the brake if the car starts moving.


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl* 
If you convince yourself of this, congratulations. What are you "teaching" your children by leaving them in the car? This is not a valid reason for doing something unsafe.

It's not about living in fear, it's about being _realistic_ about the dangers and just making a habit of not doing unsafe things like this. I live far away from friends and family with a dh who travels a lot. I didn't leave my kids in the car alone. Period. It serves no purpose and yes, slightly inconvenient.

Safety for me is a habit. I worked in a profession where there is very little risk but we were ready for it, if it happened. It wasn't about paranoia. It was about simply doing things in a safe way.

Children left in a car are simply being put in harm's way. Labelling those of us who don't do this as "paranoid" or somehow not teaching our children something (I don't know what but whatever) is simply justifying it in your own head. I lock my door when I go out. I don't put hot things on the side of the stove. I really don't think that there is a big risk to my child but I try to have systematic habits which keep my child out of harm's way.

Hopefully the message is getting through to some of you. To those of you who think this is perfectly safe, I simply hope nothing bad happens. This is a really unnecessary risk and one that responsible parents shouldn't do. Throw insults to those of us who don't leave our children alone in cars but that wont change that fact that it's not a smart thing to do.

If you're standing there with your cash or dry cleaning, only to see the police around your car, you'll going to really, really hate yourself.

It's just not worth the risk...

Holding your child while crossing a parking lot is unsafe. It is putting the child in harm's way by risking being hit by a moving vehicle and killed. Safety for me is a habit, so I'm not going to risk having my child cross that parking lot. I mean, if you are REALISTIC about the danger, you would see that the greatest risk when taking your child out on errands is the risk of being hit by a car (the risk of kidnapping is miniscule next to that, of course).

Sure it may make you feel better to take the child with you unnecessarily, but it's really not a valid reason for being unsafe. And it's really not a smart thing to do, perhaps with a reassessment of the situation some parents should choose to be smarter.

But if you insist on being unsafe by taking your child across a parking lot, in the path of moving vehicles, I just hope nothing bad happens to you.

Did that message get through to you?


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## Grace and Granola (Oct 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jgale* 
Does it seem stupid to anyone besides me that what most people are afraid of is that someone will call the police? Gosh, don't folks have anything better to do? Don't the police have anything better to do?

Our mini-van has tinted rear windows YAY, so I don't have to worry about do-gooders. I have left my grouchy 6 year old in the car while I have gone shopping for about 15 minutes. Gasp. I take the keys with me. My 3 year old, because of her personality, I can't imagine leaving her for a long long time.

I know that 'free range mama' lady isn't always so popular here but I really like her a lot and she says that is you think something is safe, you should allow your kid to do it even if it violates the norms of your community because otherwise this kind of insanity of the police being called because a child was left in the car alone for 3 seconds will never change.









I totally agree.

I have no problem leaving the kids in the car while I run the books up the book drop. I, personally, do not feel unsafe locking my kids in the van while I go pay for gas--HOWEVER, I hate doing this because I feel like someone else is going to have a problem with it. I only do this if I can park the van where I can see it from inside so I know if someone is poking around.

No problem running into the house if I've forgotten something.

Any time I leave my kids in the car it would be with the car off and locked (except in driveway) and of course appropriate weather precautions and I probably wouldn't do something like the gas station if it was late at night. I feel better about leaving the kids in the car when places are busy rather than sparse just because there are more people to witness and, therefore, probably less chance of a crime being committed.

My kids are 3 and 4


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl* 
If you convince yourself of this, congratulations. What are you "teaching" your children by leaving them in the car? This is not a valid reason for doing something unsafe.

It's not about living in fear, it's about being _realistic_ about the dangers and just making a habit of not doing unsafe things like this. I live far away from friends and family with a dh who travels a lot. I didn't leave my kids in the car alone. Period. It serves no purpose and yes, slightly inconvenient.

Safety for me is a habit. I worked in a profession where there is very little risk but we were ready for it, if it happened. It wasn't about paranoia. It was about simply doing things in a safe way.

Children left in a car are simply being put in harm's way. Labelling those of us who don't do this as "paranoid" or somehow not teaching our children something (I don't know what but whatever) is simply justifying it in your own head. I lock my door when I go out. I don't put hot things on the side of the stove. I really don't think that there is a big risk to my child but I try to have systematic habits which keep my child out of harm's way.

Hopefully the message is getting through to some of you. To those of you who think this is perfectly safe, I simply hope nothing bad happens. This is a really unnecessary risk and one that responsible parents shouldn't do. Throw insults to those of us who don't leave our children alone in cars but that wont change that fact that it's not a smart thing to do.

If you're standing there with your cash or dry cleaning, only to see the police around your car, you'll going to really, really hate yourself.

It's just not worth the risk...

holy cow.

I had a mother who felt this way about life. I was 18 years old and still not allowed to walk to school. (We lived about a 15 minute walk and were a designated walking district). Instead my dad dropped me off every morning at the front door, and my mother picked me up every day at the front door. I was not allowed to ride the school bus (different school at the time) until I was 16 and even then a parent drove me to the bus stop and waited until I got on. I wasn't allowed to stay home alone at night at 17 and if both my parents had to be gone or wanted to go out somewhere, they either made me go with them or I had to go to someone's house to stay until they came and picked me up. Because, you know, someone could break in whilet hey were gone and kidnap me. And in fact, someone DID break in, and guess wat? Both my parents were hom, but they didn't know anyone had broken in...it was ME who called the police and alerted them to the intruder.









I vividly remember how it felt, and how it negatively affected my life, to live with people who saw danger lurking around every corner, and I simply refuse to parent that way. It doesn't mean not taking normal safety precautions, but I refuse to allow fear to color my life to such an extreme degree.


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## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Oh my goodness.

So we should wait til they're eighteen to run in to pay for gas? That is ludicrous.

I have always left my girl in the car while I pay for gas. I have the keys; I can see the car from the window . . . taking her out would be silly and unnecessary. If she wants to come in with me she can. She doesn't like getting in and out of the car while I run errands.

She is 6 presently and asks to wait in the car while I run in to the grocery store, but I'm not comfortable with that yet. Mostly because of the "good-do-ers" who would call the cops on me, not because I think she'd be kidnapped or wander out and DIE.

FEAR FEAR FEAR!! YOU BETTER ACT OUT OF FEAR OR YOU'RE A BAD PARENT!


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