# SIL & new boyfriend--would this bother you?



## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

*Update post #63*

My SIL moved out of her home with BIL and dn the first of June. She lives in an apartment nearby and has regular visitation, as BIL and SIL agreed on amicably, with dn. Divorce is not yet final. A couple weeks later she asked dh (her brother) what she thought about her dating. He said it was her perogative. She said that BIL couldn't say anything about it if it didn't involve dn. That seemed to make sense to me.

In mid-July, we invited SIL and dn to go to a Ren faire with our family. To my surprise, SIL, dn, and new boyfriend came along. I hadn't really even fully explained the divorce to my 3-year-old ds yet (SIL and BIL didn't do a whole lot together beforehand anyways, and he hadn't visited SIL at her new place yet, so it just hadn't come up), and he kept asking where his uncle was.







:

It was readily apparent that dn is VERY comfortable with new bf and has obviously seen a lot of him. Now, I rarely ever see SIL and dn w/out new bf around as well. Suddenly, this stranger I barely know is part of every activity. We took dn camping with us this past weekend, and when SIL came to pick her up (after not seeing her at all for her weekend), bf was with her, too.

He seems like a nice enough guy, and dn seems to like him and be affectionate with him. But, then, I'm not sure if she only likes him because she thinks she has to... or because she's afraid of losing mom's affections and feels that attaching to bf is the best way to make sure she keeps SIL's attention.

But I am so not comfortable with this whole situation. Dn has barely had time to adjust to the new life of divorced parents, and suddenly there is a new man in the picture. Bf was even at dn's tball game, while BIL was also there. And SIL was wearing a new ring on her left ring-finger that looked suspiciously like one of those Irish "friendship" or "promise" rings... depending on your interpretation. That just seems to me to be flaunting the new relationship.

Before I knew there was a bf, we invited SIL and dn to go on a bike tour and camping with us and mutual friends in Sept. Now, SIL tells me there will be 4 of them... SIL, bf, and bf's ds and his girlfriend... oh, and maybe dn, too, if BIL will let her come. I don't recall inviting any of these other people. And really, if I was BIL, I don't think I'd want my dd going on an overnight camping trip with this other man. I don't really see a way to disinvite them now (they've actually already mailed in the bike tour registration).

So, as it stands, I am going to tell SIL they need to get her own cabin, because there isn't room for that many people all in the same cabin... which is true, but really I don't know what kind of sleeping arrangements they're planning, but I don't want my kids to see SIL in the same bed with some other guy besides their uncle, pending divorce or no.

Part of me feels a bit hypocritical, cause dh and I owned a house together and lived together for a couple years before getting married... but I do see this as a different situation. There were no young children around, and neither dh nor I were still legally married to anyone else.

I am also torn about whether to say anything to SIL about my concerns. The primary concern I have is that dn gets 1-1 time with her mother to know mom cares for her after the divorce... and that means bf should not be around every second SIL has visitation. (I mean, really, she's not the custodial parent.. how hard would it have been to keep bf separate for awhile and give dn some time to adjust? --okay, see, that's the judgment that keeps slipping out into my thoughts) What if this is a temporary rebound thing and dn has to deal with another separation a few months down the road after getting attached to bf? What if bf is not actually as benign as he appears?

Anyway, am I out of line and feeling too judgmental? I have to admit I don't much care for SIL's choices in any area of life, and I actually like BIL better than SIL. So, maybe those feelings are rubbing off. Would you say anything to SIL directly about any of these concerns? We're not all that close. But maybe I have a moral obligation to try to stand up for my dn (to whom I'm very close) in some way??

Thoughts??


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Honestly? I think it's none of your business.

Yeah, kinda rude to invite other people I suppose, but that aside, it's none of your business.

-Angela


----------



## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

While I understand your discomfort with the situation I have to agree with Angela. It's really
none of your business. In this there really is no right way to approach SIL with this information
and have it turn out okay. I can see it causing more harm than good in the whole situation.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Honestly? I think it's none of your business.

Yeah, kinda rude to invite other people I suppose, but that aside, it's none of your business.

-Angela

ITA 100%


----------



## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybee* 
So, as it stands, I am going to tell SIL they need to get her own cabin, because there isn't room for that many people all in the same cabin... which is true, but really I don't know what kind of sleeping arrangements they're planning, but I *don't want my kids to see SIL in the same bed with some other guy besides their uncle, pending divorce or no.*
Thoughts??

If you have a problem with your kids seeing your SIL and her relationship then I think you and your kids should be the ones to stay home.


----------



## BabyBugsMom (Jun 10, 2005)

Yes, this would bother me.

But it doesn't sound like it bothers your dn, so be careful in not projecting your feelings onto her. And be especially careful not to inadvertantly demonstrate your feelings in front of her or your ds.

At this point, what's done is done. It is way past time to have a talk with your kid(s) about the realities of their aunt and uncle's marriage ending. Not an ideal situation, but the situation is there and has to be dealt with, kwim?

I don't think there would be anything wrong with letting sil know that they need to find alternate housing during the bike thing, because of the space issue. I wouldn't bring up anything else unless asked, though, and even then I'd be VERY cautious about saying too much. In times of stress and change, things can be said that are hurtful and can cause permanent damage to the relationship. Better to be cautious and protect your connection with your dn.


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Therei snot much you can say about your SIL bad choices. If you are concerned about your dn i would talk to you stbxbil about it and let him handle it from there on out.

As for the vacation. . . .there is no way i would want a bunch of strangers joining me on my vacation. I would restate to SIL that she and her dd are welcome. and no one else. You have every right to decide who is and is not sleeping in the same cabin as you.


----------



## Eve80 (May 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
Therei snot much you can say about your SIL bad choices. If you are concerned about your dn i would talk to you stbxbil about it and let him handle it from there on out.

As for the vacation. . . .there is no way i would want a bunch of strangers joining me on my vacation. I would restate to SIL that she and her dd are welcome. and no one else. You have every right to decide who is and is not sleeping in the same cabin as you.

i agree.


----------



## tiffer23 (Nov 7, 2005)

I think you are 100% right. But also, there's nothing you can do about it. However, if she is invited, I would inform her that when she is invited it is for her and DN only. Not being mean, but that you would prefer men not popping in and out of your DS's life.


----------



## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess* 
If you have a problem with your kids seeing your SIL and her relationship then I think you and your kids should be the ones to stay home.

So, you really think I should not go on a trip *I planned* (with other friends, don't forget) because I don't want my kids to see a *still married* adult role model in their life in the same bed with another man? I'm not talking about seeing them together in daily life, which has already happened, but actually sharing a bed? Call me a prude, I guess.







:


----------



## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BabyBugsMom* 
Yes, this would bother me.

But it doesn't sound like it bothers your dn, so be careful in not projecting your feelings onto her. And be especially careful not to inadvertantly demonstrate your feelings in front of her or your ds.

At this point, what's done is done. It is way past time to have a talk with your kid(s) about the realities of their aunt and uncle's marriage ending. Not an ideal situation, but the situation is there and has to be dealt with, kwim?

I don't think there would be anything wrong with letting sil know that they need to find alternate housing during the bike thing, because of the space issue. I wouldn't bring up anything else unless asked, though, and even then I'd be VERY cautious about saying too much. In times of stress and change, things can be said that are hurtful and can cause permanent damage to the relationship. Better to be cautious and protect your connection with your dn.

Thanks. I have had the discussion about the divorce... the original instance in which ds was asking about his uncle when bf showed up happened a mere two weeks after SIL moved out. I was caught off-guard and didn't expect a need to rush the discussion.

Thank you for the reminder about dn. I do try really hard not to say anything negative about the situation in any form in front of dn, and I just try to let her know we love her and will always be here for her. I actually wasn't planning on bringing up any other issue besides space for the camping trip. I am still considering talking to SIL about making sure dn has more 1-1 time with her alone... not slighting new bf, but just talking about how I felt as a child when my parents divorced, and needing extra reassurance, etc. So, I'm looking for ideas on whether/how to start up that conversation.


----------



## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

BFs and GFs are a fact of life post-divorce. Unless you want to start avoiding divorced people and not letting your children interact with anyone who has divorced (which would be very tough with the divorce rate at 50%+)-- you just have to deal with it and stop being paranoid and judgmental.

Once upon a time children of divorced parents were considered pariahs because no one wanted their children "exposed" to divorce. This kind of thinking is impractical in today's world.


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybee* 
So, you really think I should not go on a trip *I planned* (with other friends, don't forget) because I don't want my kids to see a *still married* adult role model in their life in the same bed with another man? I'm not talking about seeing them together in daily life, which has already happened, but actually sharing a bed? Call me a prude, I guess.








:

Prude or not, it's simply not your business.

-Angela


----------



## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybee* 
So, you really think I should not go on a trip *I planned* (with other friends, don't forget) because I don't want my kids to see a *still married* adult role model in their life in the same bed with another man? I'm not talking about seeing them together in daily life, which has already happened, but actually sharing a bed? Call me a prude, I guess.







:

I'm not name calling, I just do really believe that you are the one with the problem, not your SIL, not her boyfriend, not her daughter, but you. And if you have the problem then you can removed yourself from the situation. I don't think it is up to your SIL to completely change herself to suit what your moral standards are.

By all means call her tell her you have a problem with it, but you asked for honest thoughts on the subject and apparently we differ greatly.


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meowee* 
BFs and GFs are a fact of life post-divorce. Unless you want to start avoiding divorced people and not letting your children interact with anyone who has divorced (which would be very tough with the divorce rate at 50%+)-- you just have to deal with it and stop being paranoid and judgmental.

Once upon a time children of divorced parents were considered pariahs because no one wanted their children "exposed" to divorce. This kind of thinking is impractical in today's world.

Yeah, precisely.


----------



## MilkTrance (Jul 21, 2007)

Quote:

If you have a problem with your kids seeing your SIL and her relationship then I think you and your kids should be the ones to stay home.
I disagree. *Honeybee planned the trip, not the SIL.* I believe that Honeybee is looking out for her boys' best interests. This is a group trip, and therefore it is okay for her to ask SIL that she grab her own cabin.

However, I wouldn't take it further and discuss SIL's new relationship with her. That really is her business, unless you suspected child abuse from any new partner.

Quote:

be especially careful not to inadvertantly demonstrate your feelings in front of her or your ds.

At this point, what's done is done. It is way past time to have a talk with your kid(s) about the realities of their aunt and uncle's marriage ending. Not an ideal situation, but the situation is there and has to be dealt with, kwim?

I don't think there would be anything wrong with letting sil know that they need to find alternate housing during the bike thing, because of the space issue. I wouldn't bring up anything else unless asked, though, and even then I'd be VERY cautious about saying too much. In times of stress and change, things can be said that are hurtful and can cause permanent damage to the relationship. Better to be cautious and protect your connection with your dn.
I agree completely. Unless you know the whole story -- and who can, unless they are one of the two in the divorce -- it's best to stay mum, IMHO.


----------



## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I think you are projecting your dislike of sil onto her choices and being too judgmental about her dating. If your dn does not seem miserable around the bf then I think you just have to let your sil handle it.

When your sil invites 3 extra people along on a trip you planned then you are within your rights to tell her that that isn't okay to bring extra people or that they need to get another cabin for themselves.

I understand that it can be difficult explaining a family member's divorce and dating to your own child. When my mil got divorced and started dating it was a little awkward. She would have the bf there for family events and holidays and I didn't really know what to say to dd about grandma's boyfriends. I ended up not saying much and dd didn't seem to really care that deeply about adult relationships yet. I wouldn't stress too much about that.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Prude or not, it's simply not your business.

-Angela

I agree again. To not want extra people invited on a trip because you were planning a trip for X amount and not Y amount is fair. But to not want people along because of your opinions about their relationship is IMO outside of your jurisdiction, so to speak. Either tell them not to come simply because you weren't planning for that big of an event, or ask them to get a separate cabin because it's too many people for one. I think those are both fair things to ask. If you say you don't want the tag-alongs to come, though, be prepared for the whole trip to fall through because people at the beginning of a romance are easily offended in situations like these.


----------



## jlpumkin (Oct 25, 2005)

Personally I would not want to spend that time in close quarters with so many strangers. So as far as the trip I would have to explain to SIL that though she may know them all well, I have not yet made enough of a bond to share a cabin. For everyone's fun and enjoyment please coordinate their own cabin. It will probably facilitate a much better experience for everyone given the tension.

As far as being a prude - no married person is ever going to sleep in a bed with a bf in my house (cabin, tent, hotel room) in front of my children ever.

I think that OP is just a bit shell shocked by the whole situation. Having the new bf sort of crammed down everyone's throats at every family gathering is making the adjustment a difficult.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I think to call them "married" is disingenuous. They are actively working on a divorce. It isn't like she's taking someone out there to have an affair.


----------



## mommato5 (Feb 19, 2007)

I would not even be hanging out with her and this BF. Obviously she moved out two weeks ago and this guy is already living with her, so it is an adulterous relationship. I doubt he fell out of the heavens the day after they split up. I would cut ties with her as she is a person with no morals and have a relationship with STBXBIL. He deserves your friendship more than she does.


----------



## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

I've been in similar situations - not with a relative, but with friends. When in my home, I've been up front and told them that they're not rooming together under my roof while one is married - regardless of whether the divorce is in progress. When traveling together, I've said that I'm not comfortable with the situation (regardless of whether my kids have been along) and arranged for a separate place for myself/us. The parties were still offended, but.... oh well.


----------



## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:

But, then, I'm not sure if she only likes him because she thinks she has to... or because she's afraid of losing mom's affections and feels that attaching to bf is the best way to make sure she keeps SIL's attention.
or perhaps she likes him just because he's a nice guy? By thinking it's something bad you are definitly projecting your feelings about sil's choices towards why DN would possibly like this guy.

How old is DN? Is there a chance this guy was in her life prior to the split?

DN lives with BIL right, from what you've posted he seems to be find with HIS DD being around this guy, I think saying anything to SIL about her relationship with him is out of line. Plus, what would it change besides her relationship with you & possibly your relationship with your DN? There is a good chance that you'd see DN alot less than you do now if you were to say something.

Now about the cabins, yes due to space only, I would say something.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I get the impression this tour was organized by someone else, and that there will be other people going besides just you and your family and friends, right? I mean, since they mailed in their registrations to someone else besides you, it doesn't sound like it's specifically your tour?

I totally agree that sil and her entourage shouldn't share your lodgings -- and if they get their own lodgings, then there's no reason why your kids would have to see her in bed with bf. I also see no reason why anyone -- either you or sil -- should stay home.

You all have a right to go on the tour, you've all paid and registered.


----------



## thebarkingbird (Dec 2, 2005)

i don't get it. why are you so uncomfortable? what kind of problems do you see causing for your boys? usually when people get divorced the focus is on how it might be affecting _them_ and how loved ones might help them through this rough time.

expecting her not to date is completely unreasonable. divorces can take months to about a year to finalize. once everyone knows what's going on and that the process of ending the legal ties are in the process of dissolving i see no problem with people dating. especially if both parties knew this was coming and have decided to part ways not. it's not lieing or cheating it's waiting on a burocrocy dragging its feet. I especially see nothing wrong if the people divorcing have been open with each other about the fact that they will be dating. sounds like SIL's ex must know and be ok w/ this man. if the kid can talk his dad knows about it.

another thing i don't find acceptable is inviting extra people along on a trip someone else planned. it would be completely appropriate to insist they get another cabin or at least know that you find it a bit rude to ask along all sorts of people you don't know. i would hope you didn't bring up her moral fitness in the convo though. it would be sad if children lost out on an aunt and your nephew was further upset by even more family drama.

besides that i'm still curious about how you think this will damage your child? what possible negative effects this will have.


----------



## ggs (Aug 6, 2007)

My .02 cents:

What SIL does in her personal life is really not your business. From what you've described, everyone seems to be getting along in this situation, so I don't really understand what the problem is. I can understand your hesitance in exposing your children to the situation (particularly since STBXBIL and SIL so recently separated), but I think you can easily handle that with a simple explanation. As a PP stated, most children aren't that interested in adult relationships, and a straightforward explanation of the situation by you will avoid any confusion and akwardness.

As for the trip, I think your idea to tell SIL to get her own cabin is fine, but I wouldn't mention anything about your disapproval for her new relationship.

Oh, and to the PP who suggested that the OP talk to the BIL about her concerns-- how do we know BIL doesn't already know about the new BF? Plus, regardless, I think that is way out of line, and that OP shouldn't inject herself into STBXBIL and SIL's relationship. Especially where, by all accounts, the principal players (new BF, SIL and DN) seem to be adjusting okay. Talking to the BIL behind SIL's back cannot end well.


----------



## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna*
Prude or not, it's simply not your business.

I completely agree. You say the bf is a nice guy. You say sil is happy with the bf. You say dn is happy with the bf. Why do you want to rain on their parade because of your own values and judgements? This is her life and her values and her choices and if you care about her at all then you should respect that and be supportive of her.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammato5*
Obviously she moved out two weeks ago and this guy is already living with her

Where are you getting that?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybee*
My SIL moved out of her home with BIL and dn the first of June.

That's not two weeks ago...that's over two and a half months ago.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meowee*
BFs and GFs are a fact of life post-divorce. Unless you want to start avoiding divorced people and not letting your children interact with anyone who has divorced (which would be very tough with the divorce rate at 50%+)-- you just have to deal with it and stop being paranoid and judgmental.

Once upon a time children of divorced parents were considered pariahs because no one wanted their children "exposed" to divorce. This kind of thinking is impractical in today's world.

ITA. I have had a few friends and a family member divorce and I really don't see how or why it is so hard to explain that to a child.







My kids had no problems understanding it and it didn't damage them at all.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee*
I think to call them "married" is disingenuous. They are actively working on a divorce. It isn't like she's taking someone out there to have an affair.









: It's very unfair to keep referring to her as married. So, the day all the papers are completed it will magically be okay for her to sleep in another man's bed then?

As far as the trip goes, I agree that you're within your rights to ask them to get their own cabin or say that you just want to do the trip yourself. I love going on vacations and I wouldn't enjoy sharing one with people I don't really know. That would ruin it for me. But everything else is really just your own issues and not your place to put onto sil or bring up to her or bil. All of this is between them only. I understand you care about dn and want to look out for her but there doesn't seem to be a problem.


----------



## GalateaDunkel (Jul 22, 2005)

Hm. I guess I'm the only person who's somewhat sympathetic with the OP. Obviously SIL has trouble with boundaries. Being suddenly joined to the hip with some new person is a sign of that, and when it's older adults who have kids they're responsible for it's doubly bad because the maturity level should be higher than that.

The thing with the trip shows that SIL's boundaries as far as pushing new BF on others are nil. Evidently she is subjecting the daughter to the same treatment. Having BTDT I must say that suddenly having to share visits with your parent's new partner is hell on a kid, and you can't count on the kid to advertise the way they feel about it because they are desperate to maintain contact with the non-custodial parent any way they can get it. To us adults it's like 'so what, divorce happens and new romance is part of it' but from the kids POV, they went from a two-parent home to 'visitation', how do they know the next step isn't complete abandonment? For that matter, how do *we* know? The sil's apparent confusion of boundaries between her actual family (daughter/brother/nephew) and her new guy and his crew is a bad sign. It happens all the time. My SIL did it to her kids, and the situation sounds so similar.

OP, I think your dh should be the one to say something because he is the actual sibling. Objectively, having a new partner co-opt your time with your parent is grossly inappropriate, whether the kid acts 'OK with it' or not. He's well within his role to remind her to nurture her relationship with her dd. The idea that this is none of your/dh's business doesn't resonate with me. If an adult sibling with whom one has frequent local contact doesn't get to share how they feel, who does? Are we all supposed to live in our own little bubbles?


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

they are still married in my book and I would have issues with my children being around the new guy. I would have issues being around the new guy. I know divorces can go on a few months but you promised forever. t he least you can do is wait till the ink dries on the divorce decree. I have known several couples that got back tgether before finalizing the divorce. it isn't over until it is over. I want my kisd to respect marriage. even a hurting nearly over one. it doesn't kil anyone to honor their marriage a few more months until it is actually over. I do conseider those sorts of relationship adultry.

explaing divorce to my kids would be hard enough (they don't really know anyone whose parents are divorced) I can't imagine having to explain "well yes . . a few weaks ago auntie loved uncle but now she is with this guy"

however SIl is free to make whatever poor choices she wants to make. Just as the original poster is free to distance herself from her if she wishes. who knows what BIL knows. i know I would e livid if I heard my husband so quickly brought another woman into my childrens lives and if she was going on family vacations and sleeping in the same room etc etc. and I would certainly want someone to inform me and watch out for my chidlrens well being. fortunately my children are terrible at keeping secrets. SO I doubt I would need someone outside to tell me. but I woudl still appreciate their concern.


----------



## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GalateaDunkel* 
Hm. I guess I'm the only person who's somewhat sympathetic with the OP. Obviously SIL has trouble with boundaries. Being suddenly joined to the hip with some new person is a sign of that, and when it's older adults who have kids they're responsible for it's doubly bad because the maturity level should be higher than that.

The thing with the trip shows that SIL's boundaries as far as pushing new BF on others are nil. Evidently she is subjecting the daughter to the same treatment. Having BTDT *I must say that suddenly having to share visits with your parent's new partner is hell on a kid, and you can't count on the kid to advertise the way they feel about it because they are desperate to maintain contact with the non-custodial parent any way they can get it.* To us adults it's like 'so what, divorce happens and new romance is part of it' but from the kids POV, they went from a two-parent home to 'visitation', how do they know the next step isn't complete abandonment? For that matter, how do *we* know? The sil's apparent confusion of boundaries between her actual family (daughter/brother/nephew) and her new guy and his crew is a bad sign. It happens all the time. My SIL did it to her kids, and the situation sounds so similar.

OP, I think your dh should be the one to say something because he is the actual sibling. Objectively, having a new partner co-opt your time with your parent is grossly inappropriate, whether the kid acts 'OK with it' or not. He's well within his role to remind her to nurture her relationship with her dd. The idea that this is none of your/dh's business doesn't resonate with me. If an adult sibling with whom one has frequent local contact doesn't get to share how they feel, who does? Are we all supposed to live in our own little bubbles?

THANK YOU! (bolding mine) That's the main thing I am concerned about. You all should have seen my dn when we brought her back from camping. Her mom came in the house, and dn ran up to give her a big hug, very excited to see Mom. Normal. Then, a minute later, bf walks in. For a second, dn freezes, and her face is surprised and disappointed. She just stands there for a moment. Then her mom says, "Well, aren't you going to give bf a hug?" Dn instantly smiles on cue and gives bf a big hug --acting happy. But I saw her face in that unguarded minute.

For the record, I am not opposed to SIL dating or having a new relationship this soon. The fact of the relationship doesn't bother me, it's the fact that SIL is putting her new relationship before her dd (who is 6). Bf is around at every visitation and dn has no 1-1 time with a parent that no longer lives with her and was, before the separation, dd's primary caregiver. Dn has been crying at night for her mom, and then even when SIL does have visitation, dn is shuffled off on MIL or someone else, or bf is there.


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I agree. It's sad for your DN. But unless you have a close enough relationship with SIL to have a candid discussion to that end, it's really none of your business.

DN is not being abused or neglected.

-Angela


----------



## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

Since ya'all asked about BIL... BIL did call me and ask what I thought about the bf situation after he came on the day trip with us. Now, BIL and SIL met at our wedding, and BIL was a friend of dh's before they got together, so it makes everything a bit sticky. Anyway, I acted as a sounding board and tried to be as fair as possible. I said I thought bf was a nice guy, and dn seemed to like him. I said my only concerns were that 1) dn needs 1-1 time with mom without always being around others, whether it's bf, MIL or dh and I and 2) I worry about dn getting close to bf and then possibly having to go through another trauma of separation in a few months. BIL was trying not to be the jealous x-dh, and trying to do what's best for his dd, and he's uncomfortable with bf constantly being around... he says dn talks about bf did this, and bf did that but hardly ever mentions her mom after a visit.

So, I know BIL has been working on SIL from the spending 1-1 time angle with dn, rather than the anti-bf angle. I really don't want to get in the middle of their issues, and I thought maybe I should voice those 2 concerns to SIL personally... because I didn't say anything to BIL I wouldn't be willing to say to SIL in person... just trying to figure out if I should persue that, or just drop it.


----------



## GalateaDunkel (Jul 22, 2005)

The situation as described is emotionally abusive in my book.

And I don't just mean the part about the bf. Six years old crying for her mother at night? From primary caregiver to non-custodial? Unless STBXBIL was throwing punches, I don't buy it. This kid is being damaged. If the OP is close enough to their life to have access to this level of detail, then by definition she is close enough to say something on behalf of the little girl. We talk about the village but when a person's closest relatives want to tell them not to break their kid's heart then all of a sudden it's MYOB.


----------



## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

Okay. If you witness dn crying for her mother and seems to really want alone time with sil then I think you should have a non-judgmental heart-to-heart with sil on that point only.


----------



## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I've been in this situation, although not quite as quickly - but we had a family trip each year and each year we would all agree "no added guests" and each year my SIL's new bfs would come along.

Here's what I've kind of learned about it.

Although you want to, unless there is something really truly abusive going on, you can't generally protect kids from their parents' mistakes that way.

What you can do, though, is give the dn an 'enlightened witness' - someone who is there to listen and have fun and appreciate dh. And you could mildly say something like "wow, that's a lot to adjust to," so that she has an adult there.

We generally chose not to make an issue of it with my SIL (the bfs) in order to keep the fun family summertime thing going. Other family members did though, and it sort of helped so - our experience is wobbly on that one.









However, one year she was dating someone that we seriously thought was abusive (he tied my nephew to a tree for not listening... bathed him with a dog (!) while he was screaming (!!!!) and did a lot of other really shitty thing.) At that point we did intervene by going and talking to her and it did help (she ended the relationship soon after.)


----------



## Delta (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:

Hm. I guess I'm the only person who's somewhat sympathetic with the OP.
No, I absolutely sympathize with the OP and would probably feel the exact same way she is feeling about the entire situation. I feel so bad for the OP's niece.









Personally, I would have a heart to heart with SIL about what you are witnessing in DN's behavior. SIL is being pretty selfish. Although, since it sounds like BIL is the more level-headed and responsible one (he has main custody, no?) I suppose it's not surprising.

Quote:

The situation as described is emotionally abusive in my book.

And I don't just mean the part about the bf. Six years old crying for her mother at night? From primary caregiver to non-custodial? Unless STBXBIL was throwing punches, I don't buy it. This kid is being damaged. If the OP is close enough to their life to have access to this level of detail, then by definition she is close enough to say something on behalf of the little girl. We talk about the village but when a person's closest relatives want to tell them not to break their kid's heart then all of a sudden it's MYOB.
ITA.


----------



## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I agree. It's sad for your DN. But unless you have a close enough relationship with SIL to have a candid discussion to that end, it's really none of your business.

DN is not being abused or neglected.

No, not abused, but quite possibly IS being neglected by her mom.







That is what the OP is worried about.

Of course mom is "allowed" to date. Of course parents are going to "move on" with their lives, but how about some CONSIDERATION for the children involved?

"it's none of her business" what a joke.

How can mom give her kid attention if her, new loving, interesting boyfriend is around ALL the time? Losing the stability of a 2-parent home, having to adjust to that, and _suddenly_ having to adjust to a mom's new great BF, is you know, inconsiderate (to put it mildly.) I agree with GalateaDunkel. Poor GalateaDunkel lived through it.

Would I do that? Nope. I wouldn't have my new favorite BF around until I knew my kids felt settled and comfortable, no matter how bad * I * wanted it. Now matter how bad I was pining for some new knight-in-shining armor. I'm not that stupid, selfish or short-sighted. My poor children... would witness their mother's emotions tied up in some new dude... and breakup and heartbreak... only to start it all over again. Do they need that roller coaster ride? Hell no.







I would get my self (my emotional self during/after a divorce) firmly SETTLED (and our beloved children) before I started "dating."

Or... say I did meet "a great guy" like the bf seems to be... I would MAKE SURE to give my children one-on-one with ME ALONE without bf around (something the SIL in this case is not doing.)







The OP is around dn often enough to see it. It's soooo sad.

And how can you (not just Alegna, everyone who keeps harping on it) keep repeating it's none of her business when this is family and the OP is spending time with the dn often? It IS her business now.

Someone posted earlier about the SIL having serious boundary issues, and I think that was a great observation. I do feel sorry for her. She is probably acting out unconsciously, which is a shame.

If the OP can talk to her about it (without making it too accusatory/confrontational) so that the SIL can really hear what she is saying... that would be best. Otherwise, I would be afraid of losing contact with dn b/c SIL got insulted.

I like GuildJen's advice about being an "enlightened witness." Worse thing IMO is if the OP was cut off from dn because SIL couldn't take any it with an open heart/mind.


----------



## erin_d_a (Jun 27, 2007)

Ugh, I see this crap in my family all the time. I've seen my cousins kids bounced from one boyfriend to another while mom and did try to figure out if it is going to work or not, and then they move in with mom and newboyfriend before the divorce is final, only to have her move on again and again.

It is HARD on the kids. It is an emotionally destructive atmosphere that sets up fear for the child that she can be replaced quickly in her mothers life too, just like her father was replaced quickly.

Personally I would not be willing to go on vacation with SIL and her new boyfriend. I don't want my children to be around a relationship that I consider unhealthy and adulterous. I would make it clear to SIL that she is welcome in our lives and after her divorce is final her boyfriend can be introduced to our family, but not before. That is what would work best for my family.


----------



## vesper0 (Jun 19, 2007)

You asked for honest opinions. Well, you should reserve those feelings of disapproval you are having for private discussions with your DH. If you feel the need to share your disapproval with someone. However, both of you should myob when it comes to SIL's relationships. It will strain the relationships for all involved and divorce is difficult enough without peripheral family involvement. DN seems fine with it and if you are truely concerned for her welfare you will respect the SIL and BIL decisions, barring situations like abuse. You are overstepping your boundaries to do otherwise.


----------



## vesper0 (Jun 19, 2007)

I wanted to add that asking her to get an extra cabin is not overstepping any boundaries. It was rude of SIL to not ask before inviting a guest. In fact, in that situation not wanting your children to see her in bed w/ her new bf is your business. But, do it tactfully and without mention of your disapproval of her relationship.


----------



## thebarkingbird (Dec 2, 2005)

well if the kid is sad, missing time with mom then maybe you should say something. who doesn't mess up as a parent at times? i know i've made big mistakes, we all have. could you try and empathize and remember a time that left you feeling lost as a parent? perhaps you could come up with something honest to say that might not feel like bashing her. you know? is it honest that you imagine she must be starving for fun and companionship after the end of a troubled relationship? is it honest to say you understand that dating with kids must be terribly difficult to get used to doing properly and that a new man must seem really exciting? maybe if you try to understand that then she'll understand that you're actually concerned when you suggest she try and carve out some more 1on1 time with her daughter.

if you are willing to talk about her but not to her it's just gossip.


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I vote for "none of your business".

It really isn't....any of your business.

I am not disagreeing with you on some points. It sounds like it is too soon for SIL to be dating, it sounds like dn is experiencing some confusing/upsetting feelings, it does seem a bit too soon for dn to see her mom in bed with someone else and everything you say is valid....however....

It is none of your business. The only reason you would be talking to SIL about anything is in an attempt to change her behavior. To control an aspect of her life it is not your work or business to control. Yes, I completely believe you care about dn, I believe you want the best for her.

However, unless there is something going on that you suspect is neglectful or abusive to dn *in the eyes of the law*, it is not your business.

By all means, advocate for dn when you are with her -- offer to take her out one on one for some ice cream or to a movie if sil is busy so you can show her a caring woman role model (without discussing this!) ... invite dn to outings with your family under the excuse to SIL that you want to give her (SIL) a break... that way the dn that you care so much about will have one on one attention and family time with people that you deem to have good moral character (you and your family of course).

But...

This is not about YOU. I do see your points, believe me -- it sounds sad....but other people's lives are not your business to orchestrate, to try to change, to judge, to comment on -- unless they invite you to comment, ask your advice etc.

As far as your kids -- well, if you believe you can get through their whole childhood without them being "exposed" to things you may not agree with -- it sounds like it's going to be a long childhood. You can explain things to your children in such a way that satisfies you both. "Some people do things differently than our family." End of story, elaborate or not -- but that is really all they need to know -- it's true, to the point, offers no judgment or condemnation.

Anyway, my vote is to stay out of it. It is not your business unless something illegal or immoral (not just in your eyes) is going on to harm dn.


----------



## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

I think that it is your business.
I also think that it is beyond your control, though. I don't really think there is much you can say or do to change the situation for your DN.

I am really sorry that you are having to watch her go through this. I watched my childhood friend (I consider her a sister, have been friends since 2nd grade) split up with her child's father (they were never married, but dated for 5 years). Her DS was only 3.5 YO and she wasted no time in dating. She already had her eye on someone. She dated a few different guys briefly and then ran into a guy we used to know when we were in middle school. They started dating and 6 weeks later decided to run off to Vegas and get married (while drunk). I was SOO MAD at her!! I was the only person who refused to congratulate her. It had only been 4 months since separating from her son's Dad and she married another guy she barely knew and he moved in to her home to be her son's new Step Dad!!







:

But there really wasn't/isn't anything that I can do about the situation. I have had to accept it, and I don't rub it in her face now that there are major issues in the marriage. I just try hard to support her and not judge her decisions as far as dating and marriage are concerned. We don;t spend a lot of time together. If we did I don't think I could keep my mouth shut.

It is so hard to watch kids be dragged through their parent's mistakes, especially when they seem so obvious!!!

My heart goes out to you and your family. This sounds like a really hard situation, and it sounds like you are really close to your DN.


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tanibani* 
No, not abused, but quite possibly IS being neglected by her mom.







That is what the OP is worried about.


I see where it could feel like she's being neglected. I would feel that way too (that the parenting was lacking and it was neglecting the child's needs)

HOWEVER, it is nowhere near a legal definition of neglect.

So, you can either say something gently to SIL IF there's a good relationship.
or
Say something anyway and stick your nose where it doesn't belong, risk losing the relationship with SIL and possibly DN in the process.
or
Keep your mouth shut and your nose in your own business.

Either way, I think that a BF being around and sleeping with mom (where people can SEE - gasp!) is not the problem.

-Angela


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
I vote for "none of your business".

It really isn't....any of your business.

I am not disagreeing with you on some points. It sounds like it is too soon for SIL to be dating, it sounds like dn is experiencing some confusing/upsetting feelings, it does seem a bit too soon for dn to see her mom in bed with someone else and everything you say is valid....however....

It is none of your business. The only reason you would be talking to SIL about anything is in an attempt to change her behavior. To control an aspect of her life it is not your work or business to control. Yes, I completely believe you care about dn, I believe you want the best for her.

However, unless there is something going on that you suspect is neglectful or abusive to dn *in the eyes of the law*, it is not your business.

By all means, advocate for dn when you are with her -- offer to take her out one on one for some ice cream or to a movie if sil is busy so you can show her a caring woman role model (without discussing this!) ... invite dn to outings with your family under the excuse to SIL that you want to give her (SIL) a break... that way the dn that you care so much about will have one on one attention and family time with people that you deem to have good moral character (you and your family of course).

But...

This is not about YOU. I do see your points, believe me -- it sounds sad....but other people's lives are not your business to orchestrate, to try to change, to judge, to comment on -- unless they invite you to comment, ask your advice etc.

As far as your kids -- well, if you believe you can get through their whole childhood without them being "exposed" to things you may not agree with -- it sounds like it's going to be a long childhood. You can explain things to your children in such a way that satisfies you both. "Some people do things differently than our family." End of story, elaborate or not -- but that is really all they need to know -- it's true, to the point, offers no judgment or condemnation.

Anyway, my vote is to stay out of it. It is not your business unless something illegal or immoral (not just in your eyes) is going on to harm dn.









:

Well put.

-Angela


----------



## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
HOWEVER, it is nowhere near a legal definition of neglect.

HOWEVER, the "legal" definition of neglect means nothing to a child. If the child is being emotionally neglected (and that's not legally recognized) the child *IS* still being neglected in the child's eyes. It's still wrong.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I think that a BF being around and sleeping with mom (where people can SEE - gasp!) is not the problem.

Agreed. I don't think that is the issue either.

But when your friend/family is telling you about their love life (oh I'm dating so and so) and/or you are around them, it is your business. They made it your business. So her SIL potentially hurting her dn through this new relationship (ignoring her own DD) is her business.

Helping Your Kids Cope with Divorce the Sandcastle Way Maybe you can read that for tips on ways to help your dn. There is a chapter for how each age (from infancy) views the separation/divorce.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyzombiecat* 
Okay. If you witness dn crying for her mother and seems to really want alone time with sil then I think you should have a non-judgmental heart-to-heart with sil on that point only.

Yes, this is an excellent idea.

I don't want to downplay how really hard all this is on children. And I really do see the point of the pp who said something like, "She promised forever -- now she can't even wait 'til the ink is dry?"

To me, a divorce is just like a death: it would be followed by a looong period of grieving. And the horrendous behavior that, for me, would warrant a divorce, would also have me trying to limit my dc's contact with this person who was behaving so horrendously we could no longer live with him.

But I'm learning to be tolerant of the fact that not everyone else sees it this way.

A few years back, I tried to persuade a friend to just go "man-free" for a _mere 6 years_ until all of her older kids were grown. She'd been bouncing from man-to-man all her adult life, and her older kids (each with a different bio-dad) were hating all the constant adjustments they had to make.

I thought if I could persuade my friend that in 6 years, she'd still be young and hot enough to get a guy, plus her baby would still be young enough to bond and make the adjustment to someone new, that maybe she'd just "take a break" from all the on-line and irl [email protected], and enjoy the time she had left with her teens.

A mutual friend just laughed at me and said, "6 years: are you kidding?! She can't even go 6 minutes!" and I realized she was right. In my case, I found it best to just distance myself from this friend. But if I'd been an aunt to her kids and had a close relationship with them, I guess I'd probably try to get along with her so I could stay in their life.

I had to accept that the the mother-child connection that's so crucial and meaningful to me, really meant little to my friend: she was more connected to her own hormones and her emotional needs for romance. No one has to tell me that sort of behavior would be stressful to my kids: I'd know it and simply wouldn't dream of doing it.

If someone has to be "told," chances are there's really no point in telling them. Still, why not give it a try? But I wouldn't get all bent out of shape if it goes in one ear and out the other, and she just keeps following "the call of the guy." Just keep loving your niece, and doing what you need to do to protect your own family.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

The thing about "she promised forever and now can't even wait until the ink is dry" isn't fair either. The fact is that when people are unhappy in their marriage, they might have emotionally checked out a long time earlier, maybe even years. No one deserves to be unhappy, lonely, or anything just because of getting into an incompatible marriage. So long as the spouse is aware that the marriage is ending and divorce proceedings are underway, I think it's reasonable for people to become interested in other potential partners. The only way I'd have a problem would be if there was some kind of deceit between her and her soon-to-be-ex. Like if he thought they were working on a reconciliation or something.


----------



## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I think less people would be defending the SIL in this situation if it were a dad (not a mom) who had moved out, was the non-custodial parent and brought his new girlfriend for all of his visitation with his dd.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
I think less people would be defending the SIL in this situation if it were a dad (not a mom) who had moved out, was the non-custodial parent and brought his new girlfriend for all of his visitation with his dd.

This is so common, I don't think most people would even be that shocked about it.

The weird part is that sil was the primary caregiver, and now she's the non-custodial parent. In most cases, the primary caregiver (usually the mom) ends up being the custodial parent if there's a divorce. So the child gets at least some sense of continuity (still spending most of her time with the parent she's _always_ spent most of her time with).

I'm not saying the "classic" divorces, where Mom was the primary caregiver and Mom gets custody, are necessarily easy on children. But to lose your primary caregiver, and see her totally wrapped up in a new love, seems a little harder than adjusting to the loss of the parent (from the home) who already used to be gone for several hours a day working.

But either way, it's very painful.


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
I think less people would be defending the SIL in this situation if it were a dad (not a mom) who had moved out, was the non-custodial parent and brought his new girlfriend for all of his visitation with his dd.

I would have the exact same feelings about it.

-Angela


----------



## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
I think less people would be defending the SIL in this situation if it were a dad (not a mom) who had moved out, was the non-custodial parent and brought his new girlfriend for all of his visitation with his dd.

Wow, really? I had the opposite feeling. That less people would care if it were a man who was looking for his own happiness. To me it seems like society as a whole holds women up to some sort of higher moral standard than men.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I would have the exact same feelings about it.

-Angela

Me too. In fact, the way I evaluated it was by thinking about how I'd react if it were my brother, who is currently going through a divorce.


----------



## SummerLover (Nov 19, 2001)

I would be absolutely furious if my daughter was spending time with another trusted adult and was sad and/or crying for me at night, and no one said a word.

The OP shouldn't mention the boyfriend or life choices, but I think she should tell the mom that her daughter has been crying for her. What the mom does with that information is up to her.


----------



## Delta (Oct 22, 2002)

I'm so surprised that so many here are taking the MYOB way of thinking.

It sounds to me like this girl is very hurt by her mother's actions. Things like this can and do have long-term repercussions on a person's psyche. I know this is MDC but dare I say that a six year old child feeling displaced by a boyfriend and neglected by her mother (she's crying for her) after a divorce has much more potential to be seriously harmful than all the MDC bogeymen like CIO, circing, formula feeding, etc.

I certainly think it is within the OP's bounds to say something to her SIL - gently and non-judgementally - about what she sees going on with DN.


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

:


----------



## Pynki (Aug 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommato5* 
I would not even be hanging out with her and this BF. Obviously she moved out two weeks ago and this guy is already living with her, so it is an adulterous relationship. I doubt he fell out of the heavens the day after they split up. I would cut ties with her as she is a person with no morals and have a relationship with STBXBIL. He deserves your friendship more than she does.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess* 
...less people would care if it were a man who was looking for his own happiness. To me it seems like society as a whole holds women up to some sort of higher moral standard than men.

And that's all I'm going to say about that.


----------



## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SummerLover* 
I would be absolutely furious if my daughter was spending time with another trusted adult and was sad and/or crying for me at night, and no one said a word.

The OP shouldn't mention the boyfriend or life choices, but I think she should tell the mom that her daughter has been crying for her. What the mom does with that information is up to her.

SIL knows. Dn told MIL she cries at night for mom, and MIL told SIL. SIL also came to pick up dn from my house one night because she was crying... and then took pajamad, ready-for-bed dn back out with her to see fireworks with bf. SIL did at least get dn a cell phone with her number programmed in so she could call SIL whenever she wanted.


----------



## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

Well, thanks everyone for all the food-for-thought. We're going to have separate cabins due to space issues. Dh and I have also decided to keep our boys a bit distanced from bf until we know him better. I think the title and role of "uncle" is a special one that should only go to family members and close friends. I realize now that part of what was sticking in my craw was SIL trying to force a close relationship between bf and us and our boys that needs time to develop. Hopefully, we can do that without forcing a confrontation... but I will step in if bounds seem to be crossed.

At the same time, I'm not going to hold the situation with dn against bf, and try to keep an open mind during our vacation and get to know him a bit better. He may be the best thing to happen to SIL, they may have a very solid future together, etc. and he may very well be a great addition to our family at some point in the future.

I am going to do my best to empathize with SIL and then if it seems appropriate, approach her about how dn may be coping... using my own experiences as a child of divorce. I've also put a bug in dh's ear about talking to SIL about the 1-1 time with dn.

It was never my intention to dictate to SIL what she should do about her relationship or attack her... part of my post was a vent to get some of these feelings out so I can figure out the most productive way to help my dn.

Thanks for the input.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybee* 
SIL also came to pick up dn from my house one night because she was crying... and then took pajamad, ready-for-bed dn back out with her to see fireworks with bf.

What a cool mom! I would've loved watching fireworks in my pj's as a kid.

Quote:

SIL did at least get dn a cell phone with her number programmed in so she could call SIL whenever she wanted.
That's great, too.


----------



## mommato5 (Feb 19, 2007)

Honestly, they really don't have a solid future ahead of them. Rebounds and adulterous relationships rarely work!


----------



## Quinalla (May 23, 2005)

Asking her to get another cabin is fine. It is rude of her to just expect to bring all of these extra people and you are well within your "rights" to ask this.

As for the rest, unless you are really close, I think it is best to stay out of it unless asked for advice because I don't think what you say is going to change anything unfortunately. I too would be bothered by the situation, but I wouldn't say anything unless it were a really close family member or friend.


----------



## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

Update...

I wanted to thank everyone for their input, and it helps to have an unbiased reality check that tells me when I'm being too judgmental, even if I don't want to hear it!









Well, the cabin issue ended up being a non-issue. SIL gave some lame excuse about her vehicle not working as a reason she couldn't go (even though her new bf had perfectly working vehicles which she had been using). Well, I recently found out the real reason they didn't go on the bike trip.

SIL is pg and due in March!







This was a shock to both SIL and her bf because A) she had fertility probs with xBIL and had given up on getting pg and B) bf had had a vasectomy 16 years ago. They are getting married in a few weeks.

So, I now understand why SIL seemed to be "pushing" her new bf on us, as she plans on his being a permanent part of her life now. So, I have moved beyond judgment and am going to enjoy having a new nephew or niece to love. The odds against this conception seem to be so great that I just have to believe this baby is meant to be here, even though on the surface the situation seems far from ideal. And, hey, my boys will get another cousin to play with, which I did not think would happen.

Now I am just praying dn will make the adjustment well, and her feelings and needs will be honored. She loves the soon-to-be new BIL (and truthfully he seem to give her more attention than either of her parents), but still a lot has changed for her in a short time.


----------



## thebarkingbird (Dec 2, 2005)

i think it's cool you're on board and supportive. ex has babies w/ 2 women who thought they'd never be able to. we call it super sperm from the year 2000. it was a huge shock and i needed family.


----------

