# I think I've lost my best friend.



## MeredithMommy (Oct 24, 2004)

This is going to be long.

Yesterday was dd's birthday. We had a nice party for family and 2 of our friends. The friends are (or were) my husbands best friend and his wife who is my best friend (really the only friend I have in this town). They have a little boy who is 1 1/2 and our dd is 3.

DD got a swing set for her birthday and was particularly excited about the slide. She was quite happy climbing up the ladder, sitting down at top, and sliding down. Dh and I went in the house to get ourselves a something to drink, and mil and fil, and our 2 friends and dd and their ds were all still outside. Well dh and I were standing in the kitchen talking and drinking our cokes and fil rushes in w dd and she is sobbing and soaking wet.

I took dd and wrapped her up in a towel and carried her over to the rocking chair and held her and let her cry and tried to talk to her and comfort her. She was trying to tell me what happened, but she couldn't talk for sobbing. All I could understand was that little boy and she had smacked heads and she was in trouble. I sent dh to find out what happened.

dh was gone a few minutes and came back. Apparently DD had been at the top of the slide and little boy had climbed up on to the bottom of the slide and was standing there. My friend yelled at my dd not to slide because little boy was standing there. She was only a couple feet away she could have moved her ds so that he was out of harm's way, but she yelled at my child instead. DD slid down anyway and her feet hit little boy's feet and it knocked them both head first into each other, and they smacked foreheads. My friend snatched my dd up by one arm(the kind of snatching that rips childrens shoulders out of socket, not to mention it hurts) and yelled at her for not listening. She scared dd so bad that dd peed all over both of them.

It's embarrising to admit, but dh and I were so shocked that neither of us could think of what to say to them. Dh told them that we all needed to sit down and talk about this, but he didn't know what to say right now and he needed some time to think.

Dh and I are both fuming. We don't treat our dd that way and NO ONE has any right to treat her that way either!!!!!!!!!

This whole incedent boils down to our two families having completely different parenting views. We do our best to respect our dd and teach her how to respect others, but we do it calmly and gently as possible.

I do admit that if my friend told my dd to stop and not slide because little boy was standing there, then she should have stopped. BUT, dd is 3, she should not be responsible for making a decision to keep another person safe.
Little boys mom should have moved him our of the way, and then talked to dd about listening.

I do have to say that they do not think they were wrong and were quite pi$$ed off when they left our house. They think that we do not discipline dd enough, and we are turning her into a spoiled brat.

We don't question or judge their parenting decisions, but it seems like they are constantly judging ours.

I don't know what to say to them when we do all sit down to talk, and I am afraid that this may be the end of our being friends.


----------



## Kleine Hexe (Dec 2, 2001)

I don't have any advice just









Protection of her child comes before friendship. I'd be willing to lose a friendship if someone treated my child that way.


----------



## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kleine Hexe*
I don't have any advice just









Protection of her child comes before friendship. I'd be willing to lose a friendship if someone treated my child that way.









:
I'd not worry about losing the friendship as I would have IMMEDIATLY ended it - on the spot!







to you & your DD, what thay woman did was WRONG!


----------



## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

If any of my *friends* yelled at my dd enough (well, ok, at all) to cause her to urinate on herself? I probably would never speak to them again. If I did, it would be to explain why I was never speaking to them again.


----------



## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

OMG, that's terrible.
















for you and dd.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Unofficial poll here at the blessed household:

3 yo child can reliably be trusted to make good decisions regarding safety and warrants frightening and violent response to lapses in judgement

0 votes

------------------------------------------------------------------
Parent of 1.5 yo has responsiblity to watch over child's safety at a playground, _especially_ when older, more active children are present

2 votes

------------------------------------------------------------------

Possible contributing factors:
- pattern of misbehavior in the 3 yo which might justify closer observation by her parents when interacting with other children?


----------



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I guess I'm confused - how did you find out how she grabbed your dd, or how she yelled at her? Did one of the other adults tell you?

If it actually happened exactly as described, I would have told her that I was sorry that the kids got hurt, but if there is a problem with your child then she should come get you or dh, and that it is not okay for her to grab or yell at your dd.

I can see why she told your dd not to slide down - maybe she was asking her to stop until she could get there to get her son, or maybe her son was just about to climb off. I can even see where she might have expressed dismay at your dd for sliding down and bonking heads. Sometimes mamas get pretty irrational when their baby is hurt. It's of course not okay to grab her and yell at her.

I don't see this as friendship ending, I see it as notice to you and your dh that you don't leave your dd alone with her. I have friends with different parenting philosophies who I wouldn't leave my ds alone with, but I still continue a friendship. Heck, my own father thinks I'm too permissive and am turning ds into a brat. Just keep perspective when you have your conversation to keep it from escalating - it really is just a difference in parenting.


----------



## mamamelia (Apr 14, 2005)

i'm so sorry your daughter went through that.







if a "friend" made my daughter PEE ALL OVER HERSELF and sob like that because she was frightened, it would be safe to say that the friendship would be over in no time. not to mention the grabbing!
and i would also explain why i am ending the friendship - scaring a child to the point of the child peeing on themselves is just NOT on.







and on HER BIRTHDAY of all days!!!!! for christs sake what was that woman thinking?????? that's abuse.

big







to you and your daughter.


----------



## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I'd give her a chance to talk about it. Maybe her mama bear instinct just kicked in because her son was hurt. She might be feeling very, very regretful. I've been harsher than I intended with my 4 year old nephew before. Granted, he was intentionally smashing my 10 month old son's hand with a hard plastic toy, but I was really surprised at the rage, because I really love him. But right then, I could have smashed him.


----------



## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

I probably would have been as upset as you are, but I think natensarah might have hit on something. Remember when your daughter was 1.5? How big the 3 year olds looked? How much older they seemed than your baby? Heck, to me, they seem huge! Almost grown. Your friend's perspective on age and maturity might be a little fuzzy right now. She saw an older child hurt her child. I've seen threads on here started by mothers who have grabbed and/or yelled at an older child who had hurt their younger one. Granted, most of the responses have reminded the member that it's not an appropriate reaction, but still, it happens.

That doesn't make her reaction right and I do think she owes your daughter and the rest of your family an apology, but I would try to talk it through.


----------



## Canadianmommax3 (Mar 6, 2006)

soory to say but i would say bye bye to them. that is not right what she did.


----------



## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

No one has the right to touch your child in that fashion. No matter what happened. Yanking and yelling at your child? Uh-uh. I would end the friendship.

I know it will be difficult, but do you really want this person in your life?


----------



## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RedWine*
No one has the right to touch your child in that fashion. No matter what happened. Yanking and yelling at your child? Uh-uh. I would end the friendship.









:
That's a deal breaker for me.


----------



## craftymom (Jun 27, 2005)

I think your "friend" has very mixed-up ideas about what a 3yo can understand/comprehend, and their decision-making capabilities. And her reaction, for what was a one-time ACCIDENT is inexcusable. Her son will get his head bonked again! and again, and again, and again, oif my 2 ds are typical







Is it typical of her parenting that her son always gets what he wants? (e.g., he's on the bottom of the slide, generally not a good place to be, so your daughter must stop so he can do what he wants?)

I did once pull a boy 2 years older than my son away from him when he was attacking him--on purpose. A completely different scenario, however. That whole thing was a strange, strange situation where the adults supposedly in charge did nothing, weren't even where they were required to be, the older boy was not permitted by rules to be there in the first place, etc etc. He later repeated the whole situation on an even younger (but larger than my ds) boy! (No, we don't go there anymore!) And I would not hesitate to separate bigger/smaller children when the smaller is being intentionally and physically hurt, just as I have picked up a stranger's toddler as he wandered out of a park into the street! (fwiw--mom was not angry, just thankful and very embarrassed as she came running)


----------



## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RedWine*
No one has the right to touch your child in that fashion. No matter what happened. Yanking and yelling at your child? Uh-uh. I would end the friendship.









:

No if ands or buts.

James has gotten hurt (not HURT hurt, bumped, knocked on his butt hurt) a couple times by older kids and 99% of the time it was my fault (or DH's fault) for not being there to grab him out of harms way. I scooped DS up, wiped him off and scooped the older kid up and dusted them off and made sure no one was broken or really hurt and went on with life...(kicking myself for not pulling Jame out of the way quick enough) I would NEVER think to punish another child for my mistake...


----------



## Monkeyfeet (Feb 5, 2005)

Hugs. I would have a very hard time getting past a friend doing that to my child.


----------



## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

First, I am so sorry that happened and that your little girl was frightened to the point of soiling herself.









I wouldn't tolerate that sort of treatment of my child. Depending on how much I valued that friendship though, I may try to work it out. As others have mentioned, she may have been panicked by the prospect of her baby being injured and she may have made a mistake. A big one, but a mistake.

If you are interested in salvaging the friendship, I'd give this a bit of "cool off" time and then discuss. Let her know that you can certainly imagine her protectiveness of her child, but that violence toward your child is not acceptable. Discuss how you need things like that to be handled in the future. If she is unable to respect your wishes, then I think you will need to focus on other friendships. Best wishes.


----------



## AnneNic (Sep 13, 2005)

I'm so sorry that your family is dealing with all of this. I hope your daughter is doing ok. For me, this would be a dealbreaker ~ I could not continue to be friends with someone who hurt my child like that. If you decide to try to save the friendship I would have a long talk with her. She would have to understand that she is never to touch or yell at your daughter like that again.


----------



## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy*
I probably would have been as upset as you are, but I think natensarah might have hit on something. Remember when your daughter was 1.5? How big the 3 year olds looked? How much older they seemed than your baby? Heck, to me, they seem huge! Almost grown. Your friend's perspective on age and maturity might be a little fuzzy right now.

I second this! I also want to point out that some parents don't have a lot of other experience with children (e.g. babysitting) and are not very good at dealing with kids who are older than their own. If her kid is 1 1/2, she may be totally clueless about what to do with 3-year-olds or what to expect from them.

I would talk to them, explain how you feel, and ask for an apology. If you don't get one, THEN it may be time to end the friendship - but not yet. I don't think you should attribute bad intentions to them when it may be simple ignorance.


----------



## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

So let's see...a three year old should have the impulse control not to go down the slide when when she really really wants to but an adult can't control her impulse to grab, yank and yell at a 3 year old for not listening. I don't get the double standard here. When my kids were 18mos old I was right there when they were playing on playground equipment because things can happen and kids can't be expected to have that responsibility to take care of littler kids.

I have mama bear instinct coming out the wazoo but I would never treat a 3 year old like that and I have one that is constantly bonking her baby sister in some way. Yelling/grabbing a child to the extent it causes her to urinate on herself...oh my, that's horrible to me..poor little girl.

I think you need to have the talk however if she doesn't admit she crossed a line then it would be a huge dealbreaker for me.

Take care mama.


----------



## boricuaqueen327 (Oct 11, 2004)

mama, i'm sorry that happened to your dd.







to all of you.

i would be very angry with that friend. i dont know if i would end a frienship over it but regardless, i would sit down and have a LONG talk about how i felt about her behaviour. causing your dd to urinate on herself...that is inexcusable. if she didnt agree with you or thought it was ok, then i would indeed end that friendship.


----------



## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:

So let's see...a three year old should have the impulse control not to go down the slide when when she really really wants to but an adult can't control her impulse to grab, yank and yell at a 3 year old for not listening. I don't get the double standard here.








Sorry? I don't think anyone here said that the 3-year-old should have more impulse control than the adult. _Everyone_ here agreed that the other mother's actions were unacceptable. But, plenty of mamas on MDC have posted their own impulsive mamabear actions, some regretfully, some questioning their responses, and most of the replies to those threads remind the mamas that, while the impulse, that protective instinct, is understandable, it is not okay to grab a child in that manner. I'm not sure I would be able to maintain a friendship with that other mother, but I do think her expectations, her perspective, of a three-year-old are a little blurry right now. And, if the OP wants in any way to salvage the friendship, it might help to realize that. That doesn't excuse her actions and it certainly doesn't transfer the responsibility of the incident to the child. I also maintained that the OP and her daughter are owed an apology and the other mom needs to acknowledge what she did and understand that she was completely out of line.


----------



## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

I would take a step back, a deep breath, and a little time to calm down. I am really surprised at how many people are ready to support you dropping your only friend over something that all sides probably regret.

I think both you and your friend had mama bear instincts rear up when this happened. She was mad that your 3 year old (seemingly much older and more able to "mind"/"wait"/etc. than her 1.5 year old - think how it seemed from her side, remember when your child was that age and the 3 year olds at the park would push by, etc.) didn't listen to her request to wait, and that was quickly followed by her baby being hurt. I know your child was hurt too - the whole thing was an accident though.

I think that having both you and your husband inside at the same time - while kids are playing on climbers - is something to avoid. If you had been there, the situation likely would have happened differently.

Did she react poorly? Yes. Absolutely. But she was freaked out that her baby's head was hurt. Am I right that both kids are oldest/onlies? I remember when my dd1 was little and would get hurt (accidentally, at the hands of other people's kids), I would FREAK.

Kids are kids. Yours should have had more supervision. And should have waited for the other child to move/be moved. Hers shouldn't have been climbing up the slide from the bottom - but most all kids do... They are different ages, and on the climber - they need a fair amount of supervision to avoid these types of issues. She should not have grabbed your child in anger - that was her mistake and she should apologize. But I don't think it was anything she planned to do - it came from fear/anger about her child being hurt.

Take some time to calm down, go to her and explain your fault in the situation - but let her know that you aren't ok with her grabbing your child in anger. I'd try to imagine how you would feel if you had the younger one and she had the older one. I'm sure you imagine your reaction would be better - and it probably would have been - but just to think for a minute about the mama bear instinct that led to it. I'm sure she isn't proud of herself. But don't end the friendship - just talk it out.


----------



## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy*







Sorry? I don't think anyone here said that the 3-year-old should have more impulse control than the adult. .

Oh...I didn't mean anyone here...oops..that's how it sounded didn't it. I meant the mama who grabbed the child, if she feels justified in doing so then she's having expectations of a 3 yr old and none of herself.

I encounter that a lot. Parents getting angry at children for being angry and things like that. Expecting more of little kids then they do of themselves.

I just feel so bad for the little girl...I feel bad for the little boy who got hurt too. I wonder if the mommy is projecting her guilt at not protecting her child on to the other child. She didn't remove him from the slide and he got hurt but she is turning it around that the three year old is responsible for it. But three year olds aren't responsible at all.

hope I cleared it up a bit. That's what happens when you are posting and you have 4 children...utter confusion!


----------



## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Thanks for clarifying


----------



## ShelFish (May 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
I'd give her a chance to talk about it. Maybe her mama bear instinct just kicked in because her son was hurt. She might be feeling very, very regretful. I've been harsher than I intended with my 4 year old nephew before. Granted, he was intentionally smashing my 10 month old son's hand with a hard plastic toy, but I was really surprised at the rage, because I really love him. But right then, I could have smashed him.

While I think she's got a point here, I've got to say that I'd have a very hard time overcoming the kind of offense that occurred here. <Hugs> to your little one!

There's this other thing that's bugging me too. I've never had a problem with dd climbing up the slide at the park unless someone is at the top ready to go down, in which case I tell her to wait and move out of the way. I've also stood close when dd was going down the slide to kindly ask children to wait until she went down before they began their climb. Maybe other parents have a different view on this issue, but I think your friend's first mistake was telling your child to not slide rather than telling her own child to get out of the way (and then getting up and over there QUICK to move him out of harm's way.)


----------



## LittleBee (Apr 27, 2006)

All I can say is









You would think her reaction would have been to scoop both babes up and cuddle them and make sure they were OK!!!!!

Too bad your not in MI, i'd be your friend





















GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## MeredithMommy (Oct 24, 2004)

thank you all so much. I was so frustrated and I really needed someone to understand my point to view.

My friends dh called and talked to my dh and they agreed that friend and her dh would not discipline, yell, yell, yank, spank, or otherwise correct our dd anymore, ever again.

Friend and her dh are still upset that we were dissapointed in them for treating our dd in that way. They still see no fault in what they did.

I really don't know if my friendship will ever be quite the same again. And I am going to give it a week or two so everyone can have more time to cool down.

Again, thank you all so much for your understanding and advice, I really appreciate it!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShelFish*
I think your friend's first mistake was telling your child to not slide rather than telling her own child to get out of the way (and then getting up and over there QUICK to move him out of harm's way.)

ITA -- when my son was 18 months old I wouldn't have let him go anywhere near the bottom of a slide while other children were playing on or around it. It would never even have gotten to the point of my needing to tell some other child not to slide down.

I can relate to the posts about mamas of onlies over-estimating the maturity of children older than their own--I can see how that has happened sometimes in my interactions with my older nephews. But still I have the sense not to rely on either of my nephews to use good judgment or follow my commands when it comes to keeping my own child safe. My child's safety and well-being is MY responsibility.

And you better believe if someone made my child urinate on himself and cry hysterically, that they would not be in my life anymore.


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MeredithMommy*
They still see no fault in what they did.

They scared a child into urinating on herself, but don't see where that might be a problem???







:

Wow.

I'm really, really sorry that happened to you.

If I hadn't wanted to end the friendship before (and had given her the benefit of the "mama bear" response), the fact that they don't understand your concern--coupled with the fact that they see nothing wrong with behaving in such a manner that results in a child urinating on herself--would make me cut and run for sure!

Again, I'm so sorry for your family. Heartbreaking.


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I'm glad she peed on the other MOm.

I am going to try to think of this from the other Mom's point of veiw. I HOPE she reacted the way she did because the incident scared her.

I Hope she will think about this and realize that your daughter having JUST turned three cannot possible understand cause and effect yet. She should have listened to the Mom and waited. BUT, she did not know that sliding into the little boy would cause him to fall and them both to be hurt. She did not try to hurt this little boy.

The other mom should have physically intervened before your daughter slid down. If she was close enough to reach over and grab her son, she should have. THEN she should have placed her son at the top of the slide (because slides are for going down, not up) and let her son slide down.

This mother knew that your daughter was heading up the slide. She saw her sit down ready to slide. What in heaven's name would make her think that a three year old was focusing on what SHE was saying? Your daughter was focused on the slide.

I'm still glad she peed on her.


----------



## Cheshire (Dec 14, 2004)

Sounds to me, like you posted, that your friendship won't be the same again.

She lost it, completely, with your daughter. Would she have reacted the same way with her child or with a stranger's child at a park? Have you ever seen her scream at her child that way?

Once things cool down and you feel like it then talk to her about it. Remind her that she scared your daughter so much that she peed on herself. How she responds to the conversation will tell you if you can remain friends with her. If she shows remorse than maybe. If she still believes she did nothing wrong, doesn't apologize and just acts like agreeing not to discipline your daughter ever again will be enough to smooth things over than you probably won't be able to hang out with her and not have "the incident" hanging around in your mind.

I have a set of friends who are quite strict with their son. They use a paddle, barf! We aren't around them much but when we are we have to watch how their son plays with Charlie. He is a year older and is agressive. There have been two times he's been intentionally mean to Charlie, once he pinned him on the ground, sat on him and wouldn't let him up, the second time he swung a huge plastic box and hit Charlie in the head (dh saw it all, Charlie was reading a book and friend's son just zeroed in on him). Both times we never lost it with their son. And, both times we were completely caught off guard when it happened.

Reading into the situation a little deeper you mentioned that your friends think you don't discipline your daughter enough. Sounds to me like they don't respect your parenting choices and she felt the need to do it herself. If I were you the biggest problem I would have being around those friends is that they don't respect your choices as parents. My friends don't have to agree with me (most of them are mainstream and they may think we're a little nutty but never have they said we aren't doing a good job) but I need to feel respected.

I'm sorry you had to go through this. Hugs to you all. Let us know how it goes after the cooling off period.


----------



## mama2alexa (Mar 20, 2005)

Hugs to you mama. I think you're right...your relationship will probably never be the same, but with time you will probably still be able to have a friendship.

I don't know that I would continue the relationship, but my reason is a little different than those mentioned. I'd be very angry, of course, like everyone else, but I'm also pretty good at talking and listening until we both come to a closer understanding of the others' point of view and I'm able to forgive.

My big issue would be how my continued relationship would be interpreted by my dd. If somebody did that to her, I would need the offending adult to apologize to dd, and I would need dd to feel ok about seeing that person again. If either the adult was unwilling or dd was unwilling, I'd put the friendship on hold for a REALLY, REALLY long time.

Just my $.02


----------



## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

well, i'd probably drop them. but i wasn't there, i don't know your history, etc. but i do think that it's very important that your child not feel that you are choosing someone that scared her into soiling herself over her. that's a traumatizing lesson to learn. so the next time you plan to get together with all of them again, i think you need to ask your daughter if it would be ok with her. if she's still scared, traumatized, etc...i'd say it's a no-go.


----------



## paxye (Mar 31, 2005)

Her reaction was way out of line...
You dd is still young and though she may believe that she is old enough to listen and have impulse control, your "friend" is proving that even adults sometimes haven't mastered that...
My good friend has talked to my ds after he did something that he shouldn't... I was changing ds's diaper in another room and she asked my permission, got to his level and and calmly told him what he had done wrong and what he should do next time... and sent him off playing...
There is NO reason for her to have done what she did and personally, I would not be able to trust someone who scared my child that much (scared enough to urinate is VERY scared) and maybe your dd will be the one to make the final decision... it is very possible that she is now scared of your friend...


----------



## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Missy*
Remember when your daughter was 1.5? How big the 3 year olds looked? How much older they seemed than your baby? Heck, to me, they seem huge! Almost grown. Your friend's perspective on age and maturity might be a little fuzzy right now. She saw an older child hurt her child. I've seen threads on here started by mothers who have grabbed and/or yelled at an older child who had hurt their younger one.

Yes and a 4 yo pushed my ds off a slide (a small one but still) while ds was standing at the top getting ready to come down. I didn't yell at the child though. I told him nicely to be gentle and careful. His mom was more upset than I was.

When my kids were young I watched them and made sure they didn't get in the way at the bottom of slides. Same with swings.


----------



## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michelemiller*
but i do think that it's very important that your child not feel that you are choosing someone that scared her into soiling herself over her. that's a traumatizing lesson to learn. so the next time you plan to get together with all of them again, i think you need to ask your daughter if it would be ok with her. if she's still scared, traumatized, etc...i'd say it's a no-go.

ITA! I would never force my child to be around them again. It seems to me that she will be terrified they might do something to her! If she's not, and she's okay with it, then okay, but if she says she doesn't want to be around them, I would never hang out with them as a family again. To me, that would be completely invalidating her experience and the emotions connected to it.


----------



## mamatoablessing (Oct 17, 2005)

I'll be honest and say that climbing up slides is a huge pet peeve of mine! We live in the city and spend hours a day at the local parks and it amazes me the number of mother's who permit their children to climb up slides, when children are obviously trying to slide down them. As a parent, I do not allow DD to climb up a slide and gently guide her to get out of the way of the bottom of the slide as soon as she has come down, so she doesn't get hit. Climbing up a slide is not only is unsafe but unfair of other kids (this of course applies to public parks-kids can do what they want on their own backyard equipment).

My point is, I believe that it was the responsibility of your friend to make sure her DS was safe. Climbing and standing on the bottom of the slide is not safe. This is not your DD's fault and your friend was wrong in yelling at her and yanking her by the arm. I would be furious if I were you, but I also would hope that the friendship could be saved after she agreed to never discipline your child again.

Your feelings are totally valid and I would have felt the exact same way.

((((HUGS))))) to you and DD!


----------



## annarosa (Aug 30, 2004)

the bottom line for me in any conversation with her is that she has an understanding that your dd peeing on herself was a sign of how upset she was and how out of order your friend was - given that she has a 1.5year old I am sorry but it might be you who needs to explain this properly to her - since her focus will inevitably be on the harm/potential threat to her own younger child

if she cannot or does not understand this either during your conversation or soon after (and give a proper signal to you that she is sorry) - then it would be difficult I think to continue to see them. Or if you do then you or dh need to constantly be with your dd....


----------



## mightymoo (Dec 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MeredithMommy*
Friend and her dh are still upset that we were dissapointed in them for treating our dd in that way. They still see no fault in what they did.

I just don't get this - even if you don't see anything wrong with parenting that way... you made the poor girl so scared she peed her pants and was crying for quite some time AT HER OWN BIRTHDAY PARTY!?!? Even a mainstream parent would think something was wrong with that. Come on.


----------



## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

Just a couple quick thoughts:

1) Don't adults deserve gentle, respectful treatment also?

2) Your friend may be experiencing your request not to treat your daughter like that as a negative judgment of her parenting, and be thinking "what, the way I parent isn't good enough for your daughter?" And it isn't, obviously.


----------



## scwendy (Jun 10, 2005)

I am so sorry for your poor daughter, mama. I am happy that your child was not hurt more seriously.

Personally, friend or family, anyone who EVER did that to my child would not get a second chance.

In my line of work, I see the result of adults who lose their patience and make a bad decision. One time is all it takes to permanently injure a child or worse.

If you allow an individual around your child with a history of treating your child inappropriately (grabbing her by the arm, not to mention screaming at her) to be around your child and God forbid something were to happen again, you may never forgive yourself.

I wish your family all the best.


----------



## geek_the_girl (Apr 12, 2006)

I haven read all of the reponses but I would be livid.







to you and your girl mama.


----------



## liebchen (Jun 6, 2006)

I am so sorry that this happened to your dd and you.









I look at it this way--if you had your dd in daycare/at a playground and a woman you did not know yelled at and grabbed your dd in the same fashion, wouldn't you have called the police? I know I would have. There is NEVER an excuse for child abuse--for god's sake--your dd had just hit her head & then was jerked around and yelled at on top of the accident? Yikes. I would say goodbye to those people.


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Holy crap. I have a lot of tolerance for other people discipline choices but this would have really really upset me.

its like she has had in theback of her head forever that you don't do it right and she was testing he at the top of the slide, thinking "she's going to do it I know she is, she doesn't obey" and then the minute it happened of course "I knew this would happen!!!" so she felt totally justified responding the way she did. but I might be reading too much into it









I can totally understand thinking 3 year olds are big kids and have it all together. Just the other day I thought to myself that my baby, my wee little one, is the same age my Madeline was when I had lily. (confused, my first was 3 1/2 when my 2nd was born. my 3rd and last is that age now) Madeline seemed so big and old and grown up. I shudder to think of what I expected of her. poor girl. but it is never ever ever ok to do that to somone elses child. I can see a ton of unacceptable but forgivable outcomes, ignoring her while the comofrt thier own child, scolding, screaming even but to be physically violent, and scary screaming ot an already hurt child (a child who got hurt becuase his mother let her baby get in the way of playground equipment, and left him there when he was in a dangerous spot!!!) is so out of control I don't know if I could trust her around my children anymore. its really feels like she has had it out for you dd for a while.

and that she shows no hint of repentance really burns me. how hard is it to say "I am sorry, I was so shocked and scared,. I totally overreacted and had no right to treat your child that way"


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

It is really hard though when you feel like there's a pattern of behavior from a child that you feel is dangerous or harmful to your child, and it seems like the parent isn't supervising adequately. This comes up all the time in threads when we talk about kids at playgrounds and so forth, but it can certainly happen with friends and aquaintances as well.

I thought about this today when visiting our neighbors. Their 3 yo boy is very possessive and grabby with things, and also very sneaky. He'll run over and jerk something out of dd's hands (sometimes her own toy) and yell 'mine!' aggressively in her face. She's so gentle that it just totally takes her back. His mom tries to intervene, but he's so consistently aggressive that it just wears her down. She'll fall into a conversation with the adults and not pay attention anymore, and usually that's when he's at his very worst. I was thinking about what it would be like if we were over and his parents were inside the house instead of watching him, and it would be pretty bad.

So I always stay right by dd and supervise. When his mom stops intervening I do it, but I can tell it is irksome to her. For instance, today he jerked a hat out of dd's hands pulling her off balance so that she fell on her knees, picked up a plastic toy bat and tried to bonk her with it, and aggressively threw a ball at her face when she wasn't looking. I went from a shake of the head and a gentle 'honey we don't hit' to a frustrated 'Johnny! Do NOT throw toys at Dd!'

I can imagine how angry I'd be if he slid down the slide after I'd said to wait until dd could move, and then dd got hurt. I can honestly say that it's hard for me to imagine myself grabbing a child and hurting them like this friend did, but I'm pretty sure I would've yelled loudly and angrily.

Tough situation for both families.


----------



## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

I just wanted to add a big







for the title of your post, which appears to have kind of gotten lost in all this. Losing, or maybe losing, a friend is always hard. I've known of many people who have allowed friendships to cool when their children were young and their parenting styles were too different, but came back to the relationship later. Not much of a consolation, I know, but just to point out it's not all-or-nothing.

Again,







A rough situation all around...


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

double post


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

triple post

sorry, computers acting up


----------



## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
I can imagine how angry I'd be if he slid down the slide after I'd said to wait until dd could move, and then dd got hurt. I can honestly say that it's hard for me to imagine myself grabbing a child and hurting them like this friend did, but I'm pretty sure I would've yelled loudly and angrily.

If you're ever going to yell at someone for something like that, it should be the _parents_, not the child.


----------



## HoneymoonBaby (Mar 31, 2004)

Everyone keeps focusing on the "she was so scared she peed her pants and cried" factor here. I think that's more of a reflection on how protected the OP's DD has been up to this point than of the severity of what the OP's friend did. In other words, what the adult did was probably not all that severe in the grand scheme of parenting styles (though inappropriate for her to do to someone else's kid, obviously), but it was shocking to a 3 year old who had never experienced anything like it.

A "mainstream" kid wouldn't have cried and peed because the behavior of the parent wouldn't have surprised him/her. I think THAT'S why the OP's friend keeps insisting they did nothing wrong. Because in their world, it wasn't wrong and the OP's DD "overreacted" because she's "spoiled and undisciplined." NOT, NOT, NOT(!!!) saying that I agree, just trying to explain where they are probaby coming from with that. I know we have family members who can't for the life of them understand why we wouldn't want them to threaten to spank our son. They just give that smug, knowing look, like "you'll learn one of these days." I think this is the same kind of thing -- they think their way is "normal" and that the OP and their kid are living in a fantasy world or something.

And I totally agree with the "Mama Bear" comments. I think she was reacting out of fear for her baby.

OP, if you want to end the friendship over parenting styles, I get that. But I would let the feelings from this incident cool before I made a decision. I'd look at the whole picture and weigh the benefits of the friendship against the past and potential conflicts over parenting styles and try to make a fair evaluation of whether the friendship was good or harmful for my family, using this incident as one of MANY data points. One emotionally-charged incident is not enough evidence to make a decision, unless the behavior was just so over-the-top as to be a dealbreaker (like if she had slapped your daughter or something). I guess we all have our lines in the sand, but mine are drawn somewhere past "grabbed arm and yelled after child's purposeful action resulted in injury to one's infant" and well before "spanked for not listening."


----------



## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HoneymoonBaby*
OP, if you want to end the friendship over parenting styles, I get that.

I don't think she wants to end the friendship, but if she did, it wouldn't be "over parenting styles". She didn't say, "I don't like the way my friend treats her son, so I'm not going to maintain the friendship." This situation has nothing to do with parenting styles. Her friend crossed the line. As I said before, I would NEVER, EVER force my child to be around someone if she was afraid of that person due to an event like this. NEVER. If her DD is now afraid and doesn't want to be around that adult, she shouldn't have to be.

How would you feel if your husband's friend snatched you up roughly enough to frighten you because you did something he didn't like, and then the very next week your husband invited him back to your house? Well, it's no different for her daughter. Her feelings aren't less valid just because she's a child. And it was no less wrong to do that to her just because she's a child.


----------



## HoneymoonBaby (Mar 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Plummeting*
How would you feel if your husband's friend snatched you up roughly enough to frighten you because you did something he didn't like, and then the very next week your husband invited him back to your house? Well, it's no different for her daughter. Her feelings aren't less valid just because she's a child. And it was no less wrong to do that to her just because she's a child.

Well, did he grab me because I harmed his wife or child, or because I knocked over his coke? There's a difference, IMO. Again, NOT saying it's acceptable to grab people, but I would certainly be more understanding/forgiving if someone grabbed me OR my child in the heat of the moment because something he or I did resulted in injury to a loved one than if it was just a matter of a larger inability to control one's temper.

That said, if my child were terrified of a friend of mine and I could not reassure him that that person was safe, I would not force him to be in that person's presence. I agree 100% with that.


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

Her feelings aren't less valid just because she's a child. And it was no less wrong to do that to her just because she's a child.


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I believe that the "friend" picked the child *up* by the arm--the OP said it was violent enough to potentially pull it out of socket.

That's not just "mainstream" discipline.

What if she had dislocated the child's arm--would she still think the child was just spoiled and overreacting. I think that ER workers would have to report the woman for abusing a child.

ANyone who thinks my kids are spoiled, overracting, bratty, whatever probably has no place in my life.


----------



## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HoneymoonBaby*
Well, did he grab me because I harmed his wife or child, or because I knocked over his coke? There's a difference, IMO. Again, NOT saying it's acceptable to grab people, but I would certainly be more understanding/forgiving if someone grabbed me OR my child in the heat of the moment because something he or I did resulted in injury to a loved one *than if it was just a matter of a larger inability to control one's temper*.

It _is_ a matter of a larger inability to control one's temper if it happens _after_ the fact. If the friend had grabbed the child _before_ she slid down the slide, in order to protect her son, that would suggest she was trying to protect her son in the heat of the moment. She did it _after_ everyone was already injured, thus suggesting that she was simply unable to control her rage towards a child.

We have different definitions of "inability to control one's temper."


----------



## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

HoneymoonBaby, I'm not really following you...it's like you're saying, most children are so routinely treated in this way (yelling, jerking around) that they wouldn't react so dramatically to it, ergo, it's not really an abusive behavior. Is that really what you're saying?


----------



## Diane B (Mar 15, 2004)

Here's my two cents (although you quite possibly have received more than enough advice from all of us!)

Everyone makes mistakes. Everyone has bad moments, and acts in ways they regret later. I would suggest a gentle discussion with your friend (not a big confrontation) and simply say, "When you grabbed and yelled at my daughter, it made me feel angry, upset and afraid (or whatever words best describe your feelings.) In the future, I would really like it if you would ask for my help when a difficult situation arises with her. (or whatever action it seems best for you to request.)" A persistent pattern of behavior is one thing, a one-time incident is another. I think it's a lovely thing to model forgiveness and direct communication for our children, and that is probably more "protective" of them growing into the kind of people we want them to be than just responding out of rage and fear.

Obviously, if this woman continues to act inappropriately, you will need to take different steps. But I would try to step forward with an open heart and see what happens when you assume the best about her rather than the worst.

Peace to you -


----------



## HoneymoonBaby (Mar 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wednesday*
HoneymoonBaby, I'm not really following you...it's like you're saying, most children are so routinely treated in this way (yelling, jerking around) that they wouldn't react so dramatically to it, ergo, it's not really an abusive behavior. Is that really what you're saying?

No, that's not what I'm saying. What I am saying (and finding it hard to make clear) is that because this behavior is so common, I understand why the OP's friend keeps insisting she did nothing wrong. People seem surprised that she could NOT know that she did wrong based on the intensity of the child's reaction. But from HER perspective, her behavior was normal and not abusive, and the child's reaction was completely out of proportion.

All I'm trying to do is explain what this woman is probably thinking. I'm not defending her. What she did was totally wrong. But I understand why she did it and I understand why she persists in defending it, so I thought I'd try to explain since people seem so surprised that she doesn't get why the OP is so upset.


----------



## HoneymoonBaby (Mar 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Diane B*
Here's my two cents (although you quite possibly have received more than enough advice from all of us!)

Everyone makes mistakes. Everyone has bad moments, and acts in ways they regret later. I would suggest a gentle discussion with your friend (not a big confrontation) and simply say, "When you grabbed and yelled at my daughter, it made me feel angry, upset and afraid (or whatever words best describe your feelings.) In the future, I would really like it if you would ask for my help when a difficult situation arises with her. (or whatever action it seems best for you to request.)" A persistent pattern of behavior is one thing, a one-time incident is another. I think it's a lovely thing to model forgiveness and direct communication for our children, and that is probably more "protective" of them growing into the kind of people we want them to be than just responding out of rage and fear.

Obviously, if this woman continues to act inappropriately, you will need to take different steps. But I would try to step forward with an open heart and see what happens when you assume the best about her rather than the worst.

Peace to you -

ITA


----------



## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HoneymoonBaby*
But from HER perspective, her behavior was normal and not abusive, and the child's reaction was completely out of proportion.

Okay, now I've got ya...you're not defending, you're explaining...


----------



## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HoneymoonBaby*
No, that's not what I'm saying. What I am saying (and finding it hard to make clear) is that because this behavior is so common, I understand why the OP's friend keeps insisting she did nothing wrong. People seem surprised that she could NOT know that she did wrong based on the intensity of the child's reaction. But from HER perspective, her behavior was normal and not abusive, and the child's reaction was completely out of proportion.

All I'm trying to do is explain what this woman is probably thinking. I'm not defending her. What she did was totally wrong. But I understand why she did it and I understand why she persists in defending it, so I thought I'd try to explain since people seem so surprised that she doesn't get why the OP is so upset.

I completely followed what you were trying to say. My problem with it is that this is NOT normal behavior when we're talking about _other_ people's children. My SIL and BIL are totally mainstream, spanking, shaming and all around horrible discipline people. However, they would never yank my child around by the arm. I think even mainstream people draw the line when it comes to getting physical with someone else's child.


----------



## Cheshire (Dec 14, 2004)

:

Either she is so deep in her world of denial that she could never do anything that would harm a child and she was only sticking up for her own baby and that it's completely okay in this world to yank around/yell at a friend's kid

or

She feels so bad about how she reacted (out of anger, fear, momma bear, etc.) that she is in denial and can't admit that she made a huge mistake.

I agree that all of main stream parents I know would never take it upon themselves to physically touch someone else's child to discipline them.


----------

