# What kind of psychologist is this?!



## LauraN (May 18, 2004)

Not sure if this is the right place to post it. Mods, feel free to move if need be.

I have a friend who is very much mainstream. Her DS and mine are good friends and go to Kindergarten together.

She was telling me that her DS called her a f****** b****. When I looked shocked and asked where he heard those words, she said, "well, I curse a lot." She was also telling me she's having a hard time with her DS getting ready for school in the morning and general issues with doing what he's told.

Since her older DS is seeing a psychologist for his ADHD, she decided to go ahead and take the younger one to see him.

So the psychologist recommended that she resolve these problems by...

a. making her DS go to school in whatever attire he happens to be wearing when it's time to leave (whether that's pjs or underwear or whatever). He even wrote a note to the boy's teacher explaining this!!

And b. witholding help from him until he "learns to respect his mommy." Meaning no helping him eat or dress or anything else--my friend actually described it as "being mean to him" until he learns respect!!!!!








:







:







:

I don't get how basically withholding love (I suspect acts of service might be this boys' love language!) and humiliating the child are supposed to teach him anything!

The sad thing is, we're having a lot of the same struggles with my DS (we don't curse, so that's not an issue, but he still comes up with names to call us--poopyhead is the current favorite). In fact, this board is innundated with threads about these issues with 5 yr-olds. So I have concluded that my DS is perfectly age appropriate with perhaps a little discomfort thrown in b/c of the new baby, and have been acting accordingly--working on keeping boundaries firm and giving him extra attention and extra help when he needs it.

It breaks my heart to think what his friend is about to experience. I can't bear to think how traumatic it would be to be forced to go to school in your underwear! That's the stuff of nightmares! And to be basically shunned by your mother...

What kind of a psychologist is this?!

ETA: I forgot the reason I was telling this story in the first place... I was so stunned when my friend was telling me this that I didn't react at all. But the more I think about it, the more it bothers me and I'm wondering whether I should say something to my friend. The sad thing is that I just loaned her my copy of "Raising your spirited child." WWYD? Would you say something to her about how thoroughly this psychologists' advice flies in the face of reason and how traumatizing it might be to her son?


----------



## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I don't know what his or her official credentials would be, but IMO the kind of psychologist he/she is is a crappy one.







: WTF


----------



## cotopaxi (Sep 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
I don't know what his or her official credentials would be, but IMO the kind of psychologist he/she is is a crappy one.







: WTF

WTF indeed, Arduinna, WTF indeed.

That's just... no.


----------



## Spanish Rose (Jan 29, 2007)

Well...

I wouldn't send my kids to school in pj's, but if it's time to go and they're not dressed, I'd put the clothes in a bag, scoop up the kids, and they can get dressed in the car.

And the last suggestion? Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but when ds12 snaps at me I fee perfectly alright about asking him to try again and, if he won't, not helping him.

I'm a bit confused about the bit about not helping a five year old eat or dress. Mine didn't need that at five, and I have two special needs kiddos. Am I misinterpreting?


----------



## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

I don't think it was intended to sound as punitive as it sounds...of course, I have no idea as I wasn't there!

I agree with Spanish Rose. At 4, my kiddo can feed himself and dress himself. He likes me to help him get dressed and I love to help him...but if he demanded that I do it or was rude to me, I would be less inclined to want to help - I think that's natural and I want to give him that feedback.

I think taking the clothes in the car is a reasonable thing to do if kids aren't willing to get dressed before it's time to go.

Having said all of that, I think mornings can be really tough. I would definitely look first at whether or not my kids are getting enough sleep and have enough time in the morning to get ready in a reasonable fashion...not rushing from breakfast to changing to the car. That makes anyone feel nuts. My oldest hates rushing in the morning so I try my best to get him to bed early so we have plenty of time in the morning to get ready at a leisurely pace. I'd be surprised if the psychologist didn't ask about these other issues first (like amount of sleep and when they're waking and the like).


----------



## blazer (May 6, 2007)

Intersesting thoughts, I alos do not think it is as punitive as it sounds. But then again I have taken my DD to school in her jammies. It is not withholding love it is helping her gently realize that she alos has responsibilities as a part of our family, yes even at the tender age of 5. Now we had her clothes in teh bag and she was free to get dressed when we got there and out of our car seats.

As far as no "helping" I am confused about the description, but yes if after a certain point in our mornings, which are spent in with both kiddos in our bed while we have morning coffee and milk as we all get started with our day together, and if she is pushing her boundries I am certainly going to respond in a "hurt" manner. I do not think that is out of bounds at all.


----------



## LauraN (May 18, 2004)

I think it speaks to how GD we all are that so many of you want to interpret this in a much gentler way than what was actually said.

The psychologist wrote a note to the teacher saying that this child might show up at school in his pjs or underwear and that he was to spend the whole day like that. That's a much different thing than what we probably all do--bringing clothes along so the child can change when the child decides he's not comfortable sitting in class in his underwear!!

In our version of things, the child is given the power to decide for himself and allowed to change his mind. In this psychologist's version, the child is to be punished with humiliation for not jumping when his mother says jump.

As for the other part, my son, who is also five, is also perfectly capable of dressing and feeding himself. And if I'm busy with his sister or the baby, or doing a myriad of other things, I tell him so and he takes care of things himself. He's willing to do that because he knows that if he's feeling out of sorts, tired or just plain wants mommy's help I will accomodate him when I can. I don't have any problem dressing him on a cold, tired morning when he doesn't feel like getting out from under the covers.

There will come a day when DS will no longer want my help, but as long as he wants it, I will provide it. It's how I show him that I love him.

The not helping feed or dress was also suggested in the context of the cursing (he must learn to respect his mother). There was no suggestion that if the mother wants her son to stop cursing, she should perhaps model that herself first of all. I suppose a five year old is supposed to reason that since she's an adult she can curse but he can't? And how does withholding help teach a child to stop cursing or to respect anyone? It doesn't make any sense to me.

So the way the story was told to me, this other child spent the morning playing instead of getting dressed, and when he was told it was time to go, he came running down the stairs in a panic, holding his clothes, crying and begging his mom to help him put them on (so he could be ready to go.)

In that situation, I would either help him on the spot (how long would it really take once the child was begging for help?! Two minutes?) or as many of you suggested, bring the clothes so he can change in the car.

The psychologist suggested that the mother say, "You are not minding mom, and since you're not dressed, I will not help you and you must go to school in your underpants." I am certain that not one of you above would ever do such a thing.

And yes, of course, I would look into whether the child was getting enough sleep, had had a good breakfast, etc, etc., none of which was among the psychologists recommendations.

This is still weighing on my heart. DH says it's none of my business and I should stay out. He says the best we can hope for is that my friend will catch onto our gentle ways as she watches us handle DS. But I'm still sorely tempted to say something about how humiliating it is to be forced to go to school in pj's or underpants and suggesting the changing in the car thing, at the very least. And maybe talking about love languages, lack of sleep, etc as possible contributors to the issues.

I don't know. Maybe DH is right and I should just sit by and do nothing.







:


----------



## Jojo F. (Apr 7, 2007)

This is all really sad. That a PROFESSIONAL would suggest these things is really depressing. I wonder if the psychologist has children? I bet not and if he did I bet they hate him.

I agree with the PP, perhaps the mother should set a good example.

And as for the clothes things, for heavens sake if the child needs some help help him. I find when I give DS ample time and warning he can get it done himself.

If my DS asks me rudely to help him I explain to him that people do not appreciate that and it makes them not want to help. Then I ask him to try again(just like another PP) that's just common sense, right? You don't ignore your child. I bet she wouldn't like to be ignored either or would like to go to work in her underwear.

Hopefully she reads the book and it gets through to her. I would politely ask her how her son is doing and then maybe share some anecdotal stories(advice), but still not stepping on any toes.

I personally could not just keep my mouth shut. That poor kid


----------



## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

I agree, crappy-sounding advice.

Is your friend comfortable with this psychologist's advice? If she says or seems like she isn't completely comfortable with it, can you encourage her to trust her instincts about that? Can you encourage her to consider getting a second opinion-would she be open to that?


----------



## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

My 3 y/o dresses and feeds herself so I don't get the not helping thing either. I think the natural consequences of not being dressed for school when it's time to leave means that you have to go in whatever you're wearing. But 5 seems a bit young for that, like at that age they can't understand that it will be embarrassing until it's too late. Maybe I'm wrong, my 3 y/o is my oldest.


----------



## Rivka5 (Jul 13, 2005)

As a psychologist, let me just say that it's often the case that people garble our advice or twist it so it sounds more like what they wanted to hear. So I personally wouldn't get excited about this unless I heard it directly from the psychologist myself.


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Rivka, I agree that your assumption of a misunderstanding makes sense, except for the note to the school saying the child should stay in his underwear all day.

That's a little harder to explain away.


----------



## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rivka5* 
it's often the case that people garble our advice or twist it so it sounds more like what they wanted to hear. So I personally wouldn't get excited about this unless I heard it directly from the psychologist myself.

I agree. In so many things it is about the tone. And, really it doesn't have anything to do with you - does it? It might be good to stay out of it and dedicate your energy more to things that really affect you directly.


----------



## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:

Would you say something to her about how thoroughly this psychologists' advice flies in the face of reason and how traumatizing it might be to her son?
Absolutely.


----------



## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rivka5* 
As a psychologist, let me just say that it's often the case that people garble our advice or twist it so it sounds more like what they wanted to hear. So I personally wouldn't get excited about this unless I heard it directly from the psychologist myself.

I am also a therapist and this was my thought exactly. Did you see the note? I can't imagine why a psychologist would even think it necessary to go that far...if she thought such a note was necessary, I would imagine she'd suggest the parent write it.

Another thing is that a therapist can only respond to what is being presented to her by the parent (other than what she sees in the office). So if you're friend is adjusting things a bit or exaggerating (or not telling the psychologist that she actually swears around her 5yo), then the psychologist can only go by the report she is given.

Sometimes when parents are convinced all problems in the family stem from their children, it is very difficult to change that mindset. I get the sneaking suspicion that this mama might present things this way to the therapist which can be quite tricky.


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel* 
I am also a therapist and this was my thought exactly. Did you see the note? I can't imagine why a psychologist would even think it necessary to go that far...if she thought such a note was necessary, I would imagine she'd suggest the parent write it.

I have seen this approach suggested in a book written by a psychologist, but I do believe it was the parent who was to write the note explaining the pjs in school.

Personally, I don't know how a parent could send a child to school in pjs (let alone underwear!) without giving them a last chance to get dressed....all you would need to do is keep one extra outfit in the car at all times,and let the child know ahead of time that there are clothes in the car (so they don't panic). Although, at kindergarten age I would most likely just help the kid get dressed in the morning!

But, I agree....if the child is calling the mother such a horrific name, and the mother says that the child got the language from *her*, then there is more to this story. My dd has heard some language from me, but nothing like that--especially directed at someone!


----------



## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
Personally, I don't know how a parent could send a child to school in pjs (let alone underwear!) without giving them a last chance to get dressed....all you would need to do is keep one extra outfit in the car at all times,and let the child know ahead of time that there are clothes in the car (so they don't panic).


ITA. This seems like a pretty harsh intervention and totally unnecessary. But Dr. Phil is a psychologist and look at him...he's a total behaviorist and, IME, a pretty big jerk a lot of the time.







:


----------



## Katwoman (Apr 15, 2004)

I know this is going to snarky, but it's not meant to me. Could you ask you friend, as nice as possible, how she would feel if her husband made her go to work all day in her underwear because he was ready to leave and she wasn't dressed yet?

Why does some people treat kids so differently from how they would want to be treated? Or how they would treat another adult? I will never, even if I live to be 1000, understand that.


----------



## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Rivka, I agree that your assumption of a misunderstanding makes sense, except for the note to the school saying the child should stay in his underwear all day.

That's a little harder to explain away.

She just said the psych wrote a note about the situation, not exactly what the note said.


----------



## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

I think it sounds reasonable, a 5 year old can understand you need to be dressed at a certain time and if you don't, then you don't, but life won't stop for you because of it. I'd use a visual reminder, a kitchen clock or something. Now of course you can't send them naked, one could throw a robe over and bring the clothes along or something..


----------



## delphiniumpansy (Mar 1, 2007)

It is called logical consequences and there is a whole school of thought about it and reams of books. If you don't like it, you don't have to do it. I am not saying I do this but I am saying there are many ways to raise a child and clearly this mom needs some help raising hers. Who are we to judge. A lot of people do LC and it works and kids turn out fine.


----------



## laoxinat (Sep 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel* 
ITA. This seems like a pretty harsh intervention and totally unnecessary. But Dr. Phil is a psychologist and look at him...he's a total behaviorist and, IME, a pretty big jerk a lot of the time.







:

Well, yes, the reason he started doing paid testimony was because he admittedly didn't have the patience for clinical work. UGH.







:


----------



## Breeder (May 28, 2006)

First: if you don't want your kid to curse, don't expose them to cursing on a daily basis.

Second: at five years old he should have the capability to dress himself, if he doesn't bring the child some clothes. What about warmth for pete's sake? How can a child learn and grow at school in his underpants?!

As for me I've been late for class (thankfully on mornings I work my husband doesn't so we can trade off) because I would rather tell my son he wasn't allowed to go ANYWHERE until he was fully dressed for the weather. Although this hasn't happened for over a year now.

Advice wise I would do this:

Ask about her son's progress

Tell her an anecdote about another "mom you know" (it's me... oh pretend you know me!







) she was having the same exact issue with the morning and she switched to a morning routine. Nothing fancy, just wake up, breakfast, after breakfast clothes are lying out and he puts them on, then brushing teeth and getting ready to leave. After doing the same thing every morning the little boy knew what was expected of him and just did it because it was "what came next" like in a story.


----------



## shantimama (Mar 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel* 
I am also a therapist and this was my thought exactly. Did you see the note? I can't imagine why a psychologist would even think it necessary to go that far...if she thought such a note was necessary, I would imagine she'd suggest the parent write it.

Another thing is that a therapist can only respond to what is being presented to her by the parent (other than what she sees in the office). So if you're friend is adjusting things a bit or exaggerating (or not telling the psychologist that she actually swears around her 5yo), then the psychologist can only go by the report she is given.

Sometimes when parents are convinced all problems in the family stem from their children, it is very difficult to change that mindset. I get the sneaking suspicion that this mama might present things this way to the therapist which can be quite tricky.


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *delphiniumpansy* 
It is called logical consequences and there is a whole school of thought about it and reams of books. If you don't like it, you don't have to do it. I am not saying I do this but I am saying there are many ways to raise a child and clearly this mom needs some help raising hers. Who are we to judge. A lot of people do LC and it works and kids turn out fine.

I'm not a therapist and have no training as such, but I'm just guessing that sending a child to school in his UNDERWEAR, in an effort to humilate him (?? I'm guessing this is the idea), and creating a unified front of adults who are not going to help him is not going to result in a kid turning out fine. He may not go directly to the bell tower, but that day is probably going to be seared in his mind forever as a trauma. And his trust in the adults in his life is going to be shaken to *some* degree. That's not "fine" in my book. It might not be "totally screwed," but it's not "fine."


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

What terrible advice from the therapist. If she seemed at all uncertain about it, then yes I would definitely share your concerns. What passes for "professional advice" can be pretty shocking....


----------



## holly6737 (Dec 21, 2006)

That's the logical consequences of not wanting to get dressed in the morning. I wouldn't let him go in his underwear (a robe and slippers would solve this problem), but I wouldn't help him get dressed either (other than hand him the robe and slippers). He should have thought of that before. It's not a punishment, IMO. That's just what happens when you don't want to get dressed on time. I might let him change at lunchtime. I bet it would solve the problem...

DH just said: I wouldn't take him to school in a robe. I would spank him. Spank him, put on his clothes and take him to school. (We disagree a bit on discipline...







but he doesn't spank the kids- thanks to me)


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *holly6737* 
I bet it would solve the problem...

I bet it would solve that problem. And it would likely create some other ones which you might find more distasteful and harder to solve.

The "natural consequence" of denying your child clothing is probably going to be more animosity and resentment. How is that building attachment?


----------



## holly6737 (Dec 21, 2006)

I wouldn't deny him clothing. He would be clothed- PJs, robe, slippers, etc. I definitely wouldn't send him in his underwear. He would be clothed, he just would have given up the privelege to choose those clothes on his own accord based on the fact that he refused to get dressed. And I'd probably let him change after he got the point.


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *holly6737* 
I wouldn't deny him clothing. He would be clothed- PJs, robe, slippers, etc. I definitely wouldn't send him in his underwear. He would be clothed, he just would have given up the privelege to choose those clothes on his own accord based on the fact that he refused to get dressed. And I'd probably let him change after he got the point.

And you don't think that sending him in pjs *against his will* would be a humiliating experience cloaked in powerlessness and betrayal?

Because that sounds like "the point" to me. Nicely designed to never have him do it again.

Which I'm sure would work. But it's about gauranteed to do bad things to the relationship and attachment betw. parent & child.


----------



## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *holly6737* 
That's the logical consequences of not wanting to get dressed in the morning. I wouldn't let him go in his underwear (a robe and slippers would solve this problem), but *I wouldn't help him get dressed either (other than hand him the robe and slippers). He should have thought of that before. It's not a punishment, IMO.* That's just what happens when you don't want to get dressed on time. I might let him change at lunchtime. I bet it would solve the problem...

DH just said: I wouldn't take him to school in a robe. I would spank him. Spank him, put on his clothes and take him to school. (We disagree a bit on discipline...







but he doesn't spank the kids- thanks to me)

Yeah it's so gentle to refuse to help your child







: So do you go out in your robe and slippers to work or the market if you don't get dressed in time? He should have thought of that before? HE IS 5!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
I bet it would solve that problem. And it would likely create some other ones which you might find more distasteful and harder to solve.

The "natural consequence" of denying your child clothing is probably going to be more animosity and resentment. How is that building attachment?

Exactly. Yet another example of punitive parenting. There is nothing gentle about this at all. This is all about do as I say or else.


----------



## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
And you don't think that sending him in pjs *against his will* would be a humiliating experience cloaked in powerlessness and betrayal?

Because that sounds like "the point" to me. Nicely designed to never have him do it again.

Which I'm sure would work. But it's about guaranteed to do bad things to the relationship and attachment btw. parent & child.

Exactly!

sick and sad.


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

We don't really know all of the details....she may very well have tried helping him get dressed, and her help isn't "helping" (we've had that issue.....it does *not* help dd get dressed if I participate....then she just argues with me/blames me for things not being perfect in wardrobe world).

Still, there is no need to send the child in anything other than street clothing. An "emergency outfit" stashed in the car (or by the front door, if taking the bus) should be made available to the child. Sending a child to school (unwillingly) in pjs or underwear is cruel and humiliating and simply unnecessary.


----------



## homemademomma (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *holly6737* 
I might let him change at lunchtime. I bet it would solve the problem...


----------



## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *holly6737* 
I wouldn't deny him clothing. He would be clothed- PJs, robe, slippers, etc. I definitely wouldn't send him in his underwear. He would be clothed, he just would have given up the privelege to choose those clothes on his own accord based on the fact that he refused to get dressed. And I'd probably let him change after he got the point.

Don't you think that would painfully embarassing for your child? Is that really worth it? What is the lesson you would be trying to teach? That it's necessary to get dressed in the morning? Is there no other easier way to teach it? When I was in school, no child ever came in their pjs or underwear, yet somehow I'm sure they all learned to dress themselves.

Honestly, I think spanking would be kinder.


----------



## AsYouWish (Apr 20, 2005)

I remember having trouble being ready for the bus throughout my year in kindergarten. I just don't think I had the appropriate sense of time at that age. And I really think that is developmentally appropriate. By the time first grade started, I never had an issue with being ready for the bus. And my parents did not do anything to humiliate me into compliance. I guess it just clicked after a while, especially after I had a year's worth of experience in "getting ready for school". I think a year's worth of experience in the routines of school helped also, not to mention learning a little bit about how grown ups quantify time. It was just something that I had to learn, like any other skill. And it just took time.

It never occurred to me how grateful I should be that my parents didn't take measures to punish me or humiliate me for my inability to "be ready". I am the youngest of five. I have a feeling that they probably understood that it fell within the range of normal and that I would figure it out eventually. And I did.

Sure, it probably sucked in the meantime with trying to get everyone out the door in the morning. And I can remember my mom often being frustrated. But we all made it through that era without punishment and humiliation.

If the OP is an accurate description of this psychologist's advice.....well, WTF????


----------



## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Excellent post Rosidox!


----------



## MrsAprilMay (Jul 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breeder* 

Advice wise I would do this:

Ask about her son's progress

Tell her an anecdote about another "mom you know" (it's me... oh pretend you know me!







) she was having the same exact issue with the morning and she switched to a morning routine. Nothing fancy, just wake up, breakfast, after breakfast clothes are lying out and he puts them on, then brushing teeth and getting ready to leave. After doing the same thing every morning the little boy knew what was expected of him and just did it because it was "what came next" like in a story.

Maybe if the OP's friend's son really needed that time to play in the morning, it could be worked into the routine? AFTER the child is dressed and ready, he could have 10 minutes of free play before putting on his coat and heading out the door? If the child KNOWS that he will have a chance to play, that may motivate him to get ready. And if he drags his feet, it could come out of his play time.
A schedule with pictures may help.


----------



## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
I bet it would solve that problem. And it would likely create some other ones which you might find more distasteful and harder to solve.

The "natural consequence" of denying your child clothing is probably going to be more animosity and resentment. How is that building attachment?

ITA. Absolutely! You said it perfectly. I think parents sometimes feel that if they don't come down hard an "extinguish" and undesirable behavior it will lead to worse and they'll turn into some kind of monster. I love your point about the natural consequences to the parent...I doubt many people think about that.

My MIL pulled a really nasty power trip on my precious ds last night.







: We're all still reeling from it today. But I realized that she just strongly believes in authoritarian parenting and the consequence for her will be that her grandchildren don't like her. And that's quite alright with me. Unfortunately, I have to do a lot of validated and normalizing for my baby so that he doesn't internalize her crap.

Oops...sorry to hijack this. I probably need to start a thread for support on this particular issue.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
And you don't think that sending him in pjs *against his will* would be a humiliating experience cloaked in powerlessness and betrayal?

Because that sounds like "the point" to me. Nicely designed to never have him do it again.

Which I'm sure would work. But it's about gauranteed to do bad things to the relationship and attachment betw. parent & child.

Yeah monkey's mom..I always love your posts and I agree with you whole heartedly. To me this stuff always feels like dog training...works great with dogs, not so great with complicated little people.


----------



## Julian's Momma (Oct 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
I don't know what his or her official credentials would be, but IMO the kind of psychologist he/she is is a crappy one.







: WTF

I agree. Just because someone has credentials doesn't mean they provide sound advice. It means they passed the tests and wrote a dissertation.

Especially in the field of psychology, where so much is still unknown about behavior and the mind, a psychologist has a lot of room to interpret what their "professional" opinion is.

People really need to start thinking for themselves!


----------



## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

I'm not going to weigh in on the whole 'send the kid to school in his underwear' debacle, but maybe you could share with your friend something that apparently worked magic on my husband when he was that age.

His mother was talking with his teacher about how he was never ready to go in the morning. The teacher asked what his absolute favorite thing to do was (play dough, evidently)- and suggested that for awhile, the ONLY time he got to play with the play dough was in the morning, after he was ready for school, if he had time. Supposedly, they never had another problem getting ready.

As sheer bribery, it's maybe not the crunchiest method ever, but it's a heck of a lot better than what she's planning.


----------



## LauraN (May 18, 2004)

I haven't come back to check on this thread for a few days, but I find that I am talking about this issue to all of my "girls" (my sis, my bff, my mom) a lot these last few days. I'm really, really worried for this boy.

Breeder wrote:

Quote:

First: if you don't want your kid to curse, don't expose them to cursing on a daily basis.
ITA with this. I can't even believe that a child who is simply repeating what he hears can possibly mean disrespect, KWIM? The mom is so focused on "teaching him respect" but what this really means is "teaching him not to talk to me the way I talk to others"







: Makes no sense.

Rivka5 wrote:

Quote:

As a psychologist, let me just say that it's often the case that people garble our advice or twist it so it sounds more like what they wanted to hear.
I've actually been wondering if this is the case with my friend. The psychologist did write a note to the teacher about the child going to school in attire other than school clothes (like pjs and underwear) but the rest of it is hearsay from the mom. I have no idea what was actually said or how it was phrased.

But I do have to say that I have a kindergarten boy who is having many similar issues to my friends' boy, and we are handling it a whole lot differently. I actually remind my son a few times to get dressed and if I see that he's engrossed in something else, then I ask him if he'd like help. He either says no and dresses himself, or he says yes and I help him. It takes seriously about a minute to pluck his pjs off and help him into underwear, pants and a shirt.

I just don't consider it to be a huge burden on my time, and I just assume that as some pps said, he'll eventually be more able to understand time and how to work within it. He also responds really well to me saying, "I'd like to help you with getting dressed, but we're running really late and I need to get breakfast made. Please help me by doing it yourself." I'm pretty sure it's b/c he knows that if I can help him I will.

But in the worst case scenario, I just don't see why it wouldn't be possible to tell the boy that he's not dressed and it's time to go, so he'll have to get dressed in the car.

When DS responds disrespectfully to something I say, I simply remind myself that he's testing boundaries, and I say to him, "Hmmm. Try saying that another way." And if he doesn't know how, then I say it for him: "You can say, 'Mom, I'm busy right now, can I do it in a minute?'"

I can definitely understand why she would seek out help--this is a really, really trying age with children as spirited as our two boys. I'm just sad that she seems to have gotten terrible advice. And I'm simultaneously grateful for these boards, and all the GD books I've read which guarantee that I would never find myself following advice like that!

To all the pps who think going to school in underwear is a logical consequence:







: Haven't we all had anxiety dreams where we show up at school in underwear? I know I have. I can't imagine making someone do it for real! It's humiliation, plain and simple. My sis went so far as to call it abuse. I think at best it's extremely harsh and can only lead to further emotional problems for the poor child.

Katwoman wrote:

Quote:

Could you ask you friend, as nice as possible, how she would feel if her husband made her go to work all day in her underwear because he was ready to leave and she wasn't dressed yet?
If I can figure out how to do this without sounding snarky, I will! I totally agree with this. Yikes, how many times have I been a few minutes late to something b/c I just couldn't get dressed in time?! Thank goodness nobody made me just go to the meeting in my underwear!

I should say that I saw my friend and her DS briefly on Fri, and the little boy seemed pretty cowed. It broke my heart. This normally spirited kid was clinging to his mom and not running around w/ my DS like he normally does.

Yes, it's possible he was tired or sick or something, but it made me sad.


----------



## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

I wouldn't ask her a question like the one about sending the hubby to work in his underwear. I think no matter how nice you try to make it sound, it will sound snarky and she'll get defensive.

If your ds is similar to hers, can you comisserate a little with her and share what you've found to work for you? Maybe you could say to her "I got the feeling you were a bit uncomfortable with the psychologist's suggestion...I would be to." And then maybe suggest some things that have been working for you.

I might also talk to her about the fact that these qualities and characteristics that he has will serve him very well in his life...however troublesome she might find them now. And, children go through challenging phases and if that is our expectation it doesn't anger us quite as much as if we believe it shouldn't be happening.

You mentioned that she has another child with ADHD? I might have read that incorrectly, but I wonder if she's trying to control this child if she feels the other one is out of control...or makes her feel out of control, rather.

Tough situation...


----------



## IdahoMom (Nov 8, 2005)

I have a 5-year-old like this (with getting ready in the morning, not swearing). I have once had to physically dress her myself so she'd make it to school. It was in clothes that I picked. She wasn't terribly happy about the choice, but she had been given plenty of time to choose, and I didn't have time to go through her long process of turning every choice down (which is what she does when she gets defiant).

I'm a SAHM. The main time limitation we have to deal with is getting her out on time. BUT if I had a job, or other kids to get other places, I can see picking her up and taking her to school in what she was wearing (pajamas) if she had decided to not use all the time and reminders and opportunities she'd been given to select clothing and change. She'd have a coat and shoes, of course.

I do not let my willful child run over the needs of the rest of the family. I do my best to gently give her opportunities to have things the way she wants, but sometimes when the rubber hits the road, I have to get a bit authoritarian and override her stubborn willfullness to make things happen the way that they HAVE to.

She loves school, so that isn't the issue.

All I'm saying is that we don't know the circumstances. Maybe a job is at stake. Maybe there are other factors. But when you have a really, really strong-willed kid, it's really not just as easy as some things here would suggest.


----------



## robynlyn80 (Jun 18, 2006)

I would say this kind of a psychologist is a behaviorist, probably not well versed on the dynamics of attachment. Maybe not even well versed in a child development.

In mental health, the majority of professionals will lean toward behaviorism because it is quicker, as far as treatment time goes. When insurance companies only pay for 10 sessions, it is difficult to focus on the underlying issue- the focus is on results, regardless of the sacrifice.

Its very unfortunate.

Parents also hear what they want- which could be the case with your friend.


----------



## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Good point, IdahoMom. This thread has me really thinking about what really is "best" for the child. I think that when kids get locked into a power struggle (and the parents don't join in like you are describing) it can't feel goof for the child.

I remember as a very strong-willed child myself, that my mother's style of trying to work with me and appease me just made me more frustrated. It was like I was totally out of control and couldn't turn the switch off. I imagine that if she had just taken control of the situation, there may have been tears (which might have needed to come anyway) and I would have maybe felt a sense of relief that someone was in control of what felt out of control to me.


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel* 
I remember as a very strong-willed child myself, that my mother's style of trying to work with me and appease me just made me more frustrated. It was like I was totally out of control and couldn't turn the switch off. I imagine that if she had just taken control of the situation, there may have been tears (which might have needed to come anyway) and I would have maybe felt a sense of relief that someone was in control of what felt out of control to me.


Yup, this is my dd. But this is the first time I've read an adult describe feeling this way as a child! Dd is generally happier when I take control of certain situations, although she may still be upset in the moment. What I know, however, is that she experiences more distress when I allow her more freedom to work through these situations on her own. I don't really get it, but am learning to do what works best for dd with confidence.


----------



## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Good for you, Sunnmama! I think we tend to have our own ideals of how this parenting journey will go, but really the important thing is to pay close attention to our kids and provide and respond in ways that they need.


----------

