# Miracle Solution for BEYOND CHALLENGING Child UPDATE in post#9



## SundayCrepes (Feb 15, 2008)

My guy has been horrible to live with since the baby was 2 months old. Everyone said it's a 3 year old thing. Assaults on the baby, screaming, tantruming, non-compliant. I have posted so many times on the gentle discipline board, talked to everyone I know that has 3, 4 and 5 year olds. Read books ranging from "Your 3 year old, Friend or Enemy" to "Raising your spirited child." I also made several calls to the Parent Connection, a local parent education center, over the last several months. Nothing was helping and I was living in fear of what my 3 year old would do next. So many people said it's just the age.

And I finally found the solution. My son has turned back into the gentle soul he was before the baby was born. He is polite, compliant, and, most importantly, he has stopped assaulting the baby. (I almost hate to say all this because I fear it will be undone.)

Two main suggestions and one minor third suggestion I got from the Parent Connection have worked wonders.

1. When he attacks the baby, I pick her up, say to my guy, "When you can play gentle with the baby, let me know and you can play together again." I don't get frustrated, I don't pull him off her. I am calm and removing HER, not HIM from the situation. Sometimes I voice for her, "So you're afraid when your brother hurts you."

At first his response was to immediately scream, "I'll be gentle now." At which I'd set her down and he would be gentle. In time he stopped saying that and I even stopped saying anything to him, I'd just pick her up. Though sometimes I would voice for her, "Your arm hurts where it got pulled."

2. I stopped telling him what he was doing wrong. No more, "Don't jump on the couch," "Leave the dog alone," "No throwing balls in the house." I tried to not do that for 48 hours. The woman said I should also ramp up the positive reinforcements, "Wow, you just went potty all by yourself," "Thank you for helping your sister stand up," "What a generous boy for sharing your yogurt." I've always done a lot of positives so that wasn't so hard. Anyways, I tried no negatives for 48 hours. What I found is his behavior didn't change. He was no worse without me pointing out everything he did wrong. So why was I constantly telling him what he was doing wrong? I went a couple more days like that and his behavior started getting better. We've been doing this for about 2 weeks and it's like I have a different child. It's unbelievable.

3. I started reading books about sibling rivalry.

His favorite:
http://www.amazon.com/Franklin-Harri...1868417&sr=8-1

He also likes:
http://www.amazon.com/Darcy-Gran-Don...1868457&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Lapsnatcher-Br...1868484&sr=1-1

I've told him any time he wants time away from the baby, all he has to do is ask and I will move her. I've honored this every time and it's helped. He doesn't ask that often, but I figure better he feels supported by me than he hits/pinches/pushes her.

The theory behind the first two steps is that kids ache for attention. Whether it's true or not, if they believe they won't get attention for positive reasons, they will do what they need to in order to get the attention. If that means misbehaving, they will misbehave to get negative attention.

Kids still need guidance so when I absolutely have to say something, I will tell him what to do focusing on the "DO" and not the "DON'T" and then will often leave the room. So when we were at my parents and he was jumping from couch to chair, I said, "The rule is chairs are for sitting on," and I left the room. This step is all about teaching what is correct and not pointing out what is wrong.

It's REALLY hard to not constantly tell your child what they are doing wrong. I felt like I was being a bad parent by not pointing out all his transgressions. Yet once I got out of that cycle, he stopped doing wrong stuff. I asked the woman at the Parent Connection how long it would take to see a difference. She said it depends on how consistent I am on making this change. He has to come to believe that I will not give him attention for misbehaving.

Hope this helps anyone else struggling with a non-compliant, difficult, possibly aggressive 3 (or other age) year old.


----------



## Surfacing (Jul 19, 2005)

What a relief for you!

Let's hope these changes endure...


----------



## Seie (Jun 9, 2005)

Thanks for sharing. I will keep your post in mind


----------



## sweetpeppers (Dec 19, 2007)

Good post. It's so easy to slip into bad habits (no, don't, stop, nagnagnag), which I have done with my 2.5 yo. And I wonder why he's acting like a monster.


----------



## Evansmama (May 13, 2007)

Thank you!







: I've been lurking here for a couple of days. My 2.5 year old is testing EVERY possible limit. You are so right about the constant "no" and "don't". Sadly I even try not to do that, but I catch myself every day.


----------



## lotus.blossom (Mar 1, 2005)

Thanks for sharing that! I too have a 3y/o and a 4m/o and have been in the same bad cycle. I wake up every day and say- I will not yell at my 3y/o but I always crumble. I found that I was using my words rather than my actions because I was too tired to do anything about it.

My DH and I had a day away from the kids on Saturday and we chatted about it and started fresh with more positive interractions and it has made a big difference.


----------



## SundayCrepes (Feb 15, 2008)

I'm so glad this is working for everyone.

We have been traveling so much and my husband's been away alot and we're finally back to normal. The attacks have increased some, but I think it's because he's testing what we'll do under normal circumstances. They also haven't gotten to the level they were before. I mean, he was shaking her. To the point I talked with the pediatrician about shaken baby syndrome. The shaking hasn't happened since I started this tactic. Yesterday there were only a couple pushes. So much better than before.


----------



## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Thanks so much for sharing that!


----------



## SundayCrepes (Feb 15, 2008)

So, an update. After I started this thread, the assaults on the baby started up again. They were much less than before, but he would do occasional "drive-bys" and push her or maybe kick her. He also would do a lot of frustrated hitting and frustrated intentional pain infliction. In the last couple weeks the drive bys have gone away, but the frustration attacks continued.

It was suggested to me that I get down on the floor and play with both kids and model appropriate behavior. At first I was like, "What are you talking about, I play with the kids all the time." Then I realized that 1. I do activities with them like read books, bake, playdo, Chutes and ladders, going to the zoo, TBG, etc. However, I don't actually play with them and their toys. 2. I usually interact with them separately. Except for some books that we read, I do 3 year old activities or I do baby activities, but I don't meld them together.

So, we've been getting down on the floor and playing trains, cars, or treehouse with weebles every day (until the baby got sick.) The first day every time she touched something, he'd grab her and try and hurt her. After 4 or 5 days that totally stopped (knock on wood.)

I am really grateful for this suggestion because of how much it has helped. However, I'm also grateful because it never occurred to me that I wasn't playing toys with them. This is a change that I want to make permanent. When they grow up, I want them to have memories of us playing dress up together or doing puppet shows, or playing trains. (I'm actually having fun with the trains. Can't wait 'til Christmas when we, I mean my guy, will get more pieces.)

The other thing I did that seems so obvious now, but never occurred to me before is telling him to tell me when he wants attention. Yesterday I was holding my feverish baby trying to keep it quiet so she could sleep. He grabbed my hair and pulled hard. Wasn't much I could do with babe in arms. After a couple episodes of this, I told him, "I am going to ignore you when you do that. If you want attention, just say, 'I want attention." It's worked really well. Today he's said it 3 times. I practically drop everything I'm doing to give him attention reinforce this behavior.

We've also been reading the paperback version of "Hands are not for hitting," It's geared to age 4 to 8 kids http://www.amazon.com/Hands-Hitting-...7316595&sr=8-1 and What About Me: Twelve Ways To Get Your Parents' Attention Without Hitting Your Sister https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/18...ss_T15_product

I'm hoping we're coming to an end of the aggressive stuff.


----------



## dogretro (Jun 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SundayCrepes* 
It was suggested to me that I get down on the floor and play with both kids and model appropriate behavior. At first I was like, "What are you talking about, I play with the kids all the time." Then I realized that 1. I do activities with them like read books, bake, playdo, Chutes and ladders, going to the zoo, TBG, etc. However, I don't actually play with them and their toys. 2. I usually interact with them separately. Except for some books that we read, I do 3 year old activities or I do baby activities, but I don't meld them together.

So, we've been getting down on the floor and playing trains, cars, or treehouse with weebles every day (until the baby got sick.) The first day every time she touched something, he'd grab her and try and hurt her. After 4 or 5 days that totally stopped (knock on wood.)

THIS is actually a really great thing to do with kids of any age, even when you are just babysitting or doing child care for a group. We always assume that kids will "just know" how to play together, or that us telling them, "S/he is just looking at it," or, "Give it back," is always going to work, but they really, truly do NOT understand that "playing together" is different from "S/he wants to steal my toys!" Older kids do understand b/c of life experience, but the younger ones do not. It is AMAZING how quickly you can end scuffles when you actually get down on the floor and play with them, modeling nice behaviour for them, making up stories, and explaining how give-and-take works.

I'm so happy for you that you found such wonderful solutions!!


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

The other thing I did that seems so obvious now, but never occurred to me before is telling him to tell me when he wants attention. Yesterday I was holding my feverish baby trying to keep it quiet so she could sleep. He grabbed my hair and pulled hard. Wasn't much I could do with babe in arms. After a couple episodes of this, I told him, "I am going to ignore you when you do that. If you want attention, just say, 'I want attention." It's worked really well. Today he's said it 3 times. I practically drop everything I'm doing to give him attention reinforce this behavior.
Oh I love this, it was SO critical for ds at that age, and worked SO well!!


----------



## SundayCrepes (Feb 15, 2008)

So we had a disaster period this afternoon.

We've put him in preschool so he can have other kids to play with. Since we will homeschool, this was a hard choice, but he seemed to be trying to play with the baby the way he plays with other 3 year olds and she's just not big enough for that.

Anyway, he got home from school. (Baby's sick so my husband picked him up instead of me.) He found a medium sized padlock on a stretchy thing. He hit me in the back with it. I told him that wasn't okay and he promised not to do it again. It's kind of fuzzy what all happened. I asked if he wanted attention. He said yes. I said I'd read him a book after I ate lunch. He said for me to not eat lunch. I said yes, I'm REALLY hungry. I would read a book after my quick lunch. He hit me with the padlock again. Then hit me with his hand. Then stood on the baby's feet when she was trying to get a banana out of the grocery bag.

I took the lock away to much tears. I ate my lunch, but mixed the sauce over the rice (without thinking about it) and he was upset because he wanted to share rice without sauce.

I asked if he wanted a nap and we went in and lay on the bed. Normally getting him down for a nap is hard because he still nurses and she wants attention at the same time. Since she's sick it's easier.

He's asleep now and will be better for it. (He so often won't nap.) I'm just stymied. I'm glad he hit me and not her, but I don't know what to say or do when he hits me.


----------



## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SundayCrepes* 
He's asleep now and will be better for it. (He so often won't nap.) I'm just stymied. I'm glad he hit me and not her, but I don't know what to say or do when he hits me.

"Ouch, that hurts. I don't want to be with you when you hurt me." Then walk away (even if it means leaving what you're doing.) Honestly, our kids got time outs for this kind of behavior. It's not a "you must sit here for x amount of time" kind of thing, but if you can't control your body, you can't be with us. It sounds like you don't want to go down that road, and that's fine. But he DEFINITELY needs to hear that it hurts and it makes you want to go away. That's not conditional love, it's the truth.

The other thing that struck me about today's events was that he was frustrated that you couldn't do what he wanted right away. Do acknowledge that emotion for him? "I don't want you to eat lunch." "You really want me to read now, don't you? It's hard to wait." can sometimes (_sometimes_ is the operative word here) avoid a meltdown. Note there's no explanation of why you can't or your need to eat, just an acknowledgment that it's hard to wait.

We all have disaster periods. I think focusing on the overall trends, rather than individual mornings/afternoons will help YOU. It's a "two steps forward, one step back" kind of process.

If he's sleeping, he was clearly either overtired OR possibly coming down with something. I remember my sister visiting once when ds was about 3. Ds was whining, clingy, aggressive (which he NEVER is), etc. My sister commented: You know, when my kids behaved like that, they were usually coming down with something. Lo and behold, 2 days later, ds got sick!

I want to encourage the playing with your kids. My kids are 5 and 8, and I can't tell you how crucial that time is to them. Two of my favorite books, Playful Parenting and The Challenging Child, both advocate this as a way to build strong connection with your child. This strong connection really does facilitate problem solving and emotional regulation. My kids are now old enough to recognize this need. They will regularly come to me and say "I need some momma time."

Let's hope he woke up feeling better and you can have a good afternoon.


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SundayCrepes* 
The other thing I did that seems so obvious now, but never occurred to me before is telling him to tell me when he wants attention. Yesterday I was holding my feverish baby trying to keep it quiet so she could sleep. He grabbed my hair and pulled hard. Wasn't much I could do with babe in arms. After a couple episodes of this, I told him, "I am going to ignore you when you do that. If you want attention, just say, 'I want attention." It's worked really well. Today he's said it 3 times. I practically drop everything I'm doing to give him attention reinforce this behavior.

This was super important for us too! Such a simple, but effective tool.


----------



## 3*is*magic (Sep 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
"Ouch, that hurts. I don't want to be with you when you hurt me." Then walk away (even if it means leaving what you're doing.) Honestly, our kids got time outs for this kind of behavior. It's not a "you must sit here for x amount of time" kind of thing, but if you can't control your body, you can't be with us. It sounds like you don't want to go down that road, and that's fine. But he DEFINITELY needs to hear that it hurts and it makes you want to go away. That's not conditional love, it's the truth.

The other thing that struck me about today's events was that he was frustrated that you couldn't do what he wanted right away. Do acknowledge that emotion for him? "I don't want you to eat lunch." "You really want me to read now, don't you? It's hard to wait." can sometimes (_sometimes_ is the operative word here) avoid a meltdown. Note there's no explanation of why you can't or your need to eat, just an acknowledgment that it's hard to wait.

I don't want to hijack the OP's thread, but I have a question about how you might deal with a challenging three year old with whom these tactics backfire.

If I looked my three year old in the eye and told me he hurt me and then walked away, his response would likely be, "I _WANT_ to hurt you." and then follow me and continue to hit/poke/kick. That behavior currently ends with a time out in his crib with the crib tent zipped shut which, admittedly, does not influence his future behavior but gives ME a chance to cool off without having to worry about him being unattended (because when he's angry he is destructive and tends to make dangerous choices). Sometimes I _can't_ walk away from what I'm doing to put some distance between us, because I am cooking or preparing my other children to leave the house to be somewhere on time. Oftentimes when I DO walk away, he refocuses his anger on a sibling or an inanimate object. He's broken dishes, he's jabbed forks into the table, he's thrown rocks and pushed over chairs.

I find that acknowledging his frustration and anger only serves to enrage him further - he doesn't seem to understand that sometimes I _need_ to finish my lunch or getting dressed before I can play blocks with him and telling him I understand why he's upset only seems to rub salt in the wound.

I am not trying to shoot down what I think is really good advice or sound like a contrarian. This is something I have struggled with for, literally, half my son's life. I have read all the books, read all the boards, sought professional help through birth-3 and a child psychologist and am at a loss for ways to help my son cope with everyday disappointments and frustration. I have tried (for months at a time) a very gentle approach, a tough-love approach, and everything in between. I don't often raise my voice. I don't spank. I try to be matter-of-fact and empathetic and compassionate and reasonable. And yet the behaviors persist and have put tremendous stress on me, my DP and my daughters. It sounds like the OP's son's behaviors are (were!) similar to mine and I can fully appreciate both her frustration with her situation and relief at finding some solutions. I hope to drink from that well soon







.


----------



## treehugginhippie (Nov 29, 2004)

subbing to read later


----------



## SundayCrepes (Feb 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
"Ouch, that hurts. I don't want to be with you when you hurt me." Then walk away (even if it means leaving what you're doing.) Honestly, our kids got time outs for this kind of behavior. It's not a "you must sit here for x amount of time" kind of thing, but if you can't control your body, you can't be with us. It sounds like you don't want to go down that road, and that's fine. But he DEFINITELY needs to hear that it hurts and it makes you want to go away. That's not conditional love, it's the truth.

The other thing that struck me about today's events was that he was frustrated that you couldn't do what he wanted right away. Do acknowledge that emotion for him? "I don't want you to eat lunch." "You really want me to read now, don't you? It's hard to wait." can sometimes (_sometimes_ is the operative word here) avoid a meltdown. Note there's no explanation of why you can't or your need to eat, just an acknowledgment that it's hard to wait.

We all have disaster periods. I think focusing on the overall trends, rather than individual mornings/afternoons will help YOU. It's a "two steps forward, one step back" kind of process.

If he's sleeping, he was clearly either overtired OR possibly coming down with something. I remember my sister visiting once when ds was about 3. Ds was whining, clingy, aggressive (which he NEVER is), etc. My sister commented: You know, when my kids behaved like that, they were usually coming down with something. Lo and behold, 2 days later, ds got sick!

I want to encourage the playing with your kids. My kids are 5 and 8, and I can't tell you how crucial that time is to them. Two of my favorite books, Playful Parenting and The Challenging Child, both advocate this as a way to build strong connection with your child. This strong connection really does facilitate problem solving and emotional regulation. My kids are now old enough to recognize this need. They will regularly come to me and say "I need some momma time."

Let's hope he woke up feeling better and you can have a good afternoon.

Yes, we did have a good afternoon.

Thanks for all your suggestions. They're very good. I need to add, "You want me to read to you and are frustrated you have to wait," to my repertoire.

When he naps it makes a huge difference. The problem is he nurses to sleep. Unless the baby is napping (a rare event when she's well) she stands at the foot of the bed and cries or is on the bed banging on the blinds while he's trying to go down. He mainly gets to nurse at sleeptimes and I don't want to take that away from him. Plus, I don't know how to have him take a nap without me there. He's not open to that idea when I suggest it.

Any sleep inducing suggestions?

Regarding overall, it is MUCH better than it was before. I'm looking at how much better it all is when I'm not frustrated and when I can be positive. I'm trying to focus more on changing me than changing him. His behaviors will/do follow mine.


----------



## jillmamma (Apr 11, 2005)

My kids are a similar age spacing and I also tandem nursed, and as far as naps go...can you nurse them together? Don't know if that would help solve your DD's need for attention while letting your DS have his time at the breast too and to wind down for sleep. I found sometimes I could lay on my back and have one on each side to nurse both together (I could position the baby, and let the big guy latch himself on). Or, if I was truly desperate, I would put on a movie in the living room and let him just crash on the couch while watching that. Sometimes it is really hard juggling the needs of both, isn't it?


----------



## SundayCrepes (Feb 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jillmamma* 
My kids are a similar age spacing and I also tandem nursed, and as far as naps go...can you nurse them together? Don't know if that would help solve your DD's need for attention while letting your DS have his time at the breast too and to wind down for sleep. I found sometimes I could lay on my back and have one on each side to nurse both together (I could position the baby, and let the big guy latch himself on). Or, if I was truly desperate, I would put on a movie in the living room and let him just crash on the couch while watching that. Sometimes it is really hard juggling the needs of both, isn't it?









If I hold my mouth just right, I can have him turn on a National Geographics kids' video at 2:40, lay down with her at 3, and emerge from the bedroom at 3:20 just as the video is getting over and offer to take him in for a nap. The problem comes when he wants/needs to nap earlier and she doesn't. He has no patience to let me get her down to sleep first. If he did, we would have fewer problems.

I do try and nurse them together. I really dislike it, but I can do it. The problem is we do it with me on my side and him leaning over me. Hard for him to fall asleep that way. Maybe she's old enough that I could try lying on my back. That didn't used to work for us when she was smaller.

I hate to be "yes, but" ting you. However, it really helps to know I'm not the only one struggling.


----------



## pishajane (Dec 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SundayCrepes* 
2. I stopped telling him what he was doing wrong. No more, "Don't jump on the couch," "Leave the dog alone," "No throwing balls in the house." I tried to not do that for 48 hours. The woman said I should also ramp up the positive reinforcements, "Wow, you just went potty all by yourself," "Thank you for helping your sister stand up," "What a generous boy for sharing your yogurt." I've always done a lot of positives so that wasn't so hard. Anyways, I tried no negatives for 48 hours. What I found is his behavior didn't change. He was no worse without me pointing out everything he did wrong. So why was I constantly telling him what he was doing wrong? I went a couple more days like that and his behavior started getting better. We've been doing this for about 2 weeks and it's like I have a different child. It's unbelievable.

So, what did you do while he was doing those things you didn't want him to do? I get not pointing out all the mistakes all the time, but what do you actually do about it then? For instance, if he was tearing a book i can just take it away, but if he was climbing up onto the kitchen bench to get into the cupboards, removing him from the room doesn't stop it from happening again. I have this problem with both my kids - do i just spend all day removing them from the kitchen? There's no door, so that's not an option, and they're bored with playing with pots and pans and all the stuff they're actually ALLOWED to play with... so what do you do in this situation?
And unfortunately this is only one example of what they're up to - it seems that they actually like getting into trouble. Anything off limits to them is just seen as a challenge.
I'm afraid my patience is wearing very thin, and i'm tending to yell a lot more at the moment, which of course like you said doesn't even change the behaviour, just makes me more upset. So if you have any advice i'd really appreciate it!
(Oh, btw they are 3y 4mo, and 22mos old)

ETA: As for the sleeping issue with your son, could you put him in a stroller and go for a walk with the baby in a sling? Would that work? I have also used the car quite successfully in getting them to sleep.


----------



## SundayCrepes (Feb 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pishajane* 
it seems that they actually like getting into trouble. Anything off limits to them is just seen as a challenge.

ETA: As for the sleeping issue with your son, could you put him in a stroller and go for a walk with the baby in a sling? Would that work? I have also used the car quite successfully in getting them to sleep.

From what I've been told, they like the negative attention. Negative attention is better than no attention. With three overwhelming little ones, you probably have little time to give them as much positive attention as you would like.

What I did was to truly walk away. Unless it was a serious safety issue, I just ignored it. If it was a safety issue, I'd gently, without emotions, remove the hazard, or remove them from the hazard. This really does work. You just have to be consistent.

Regarding the sleep thing. The problem with the car is if they both fall asleep. She wakes up as soon as you stop the car, so if she hasn't slept enough she's not going to sleep more and her nap opportunity is shot. He will transfer out of the car the first 20 minutes or so, but as his nap gets further along he is more likely to wake up. So if they both fall asleep early on I am left driving for 2 hours. I have done that many, many times. I can't afford the gas and it makes me crazy.

He won't sleep in the stroller.


----------

