# 3+ kid families- can you afford your kids?



## AlmostAPpropriate (Oct 23, 2004)

Hi, I have two kids and would really like to have more. I just know we cant afford to have any more according to our goals for them - for me to stay home, arts/enrichment classes, homeschool, college, etc. My DH is self emp and we are just squeaking by as it is. He and I dont have health ins due to the cost and our weight. We pay for the kids to have a very high deductible coverage. I dont have a high earning profession so, if DH should die, I couldnt support more than 2 kids very well at all. There is government aid but I just cant see "planning" to go on WIC, medicaid, etc by having kids I know I cant afford. And yet, I want more kids. I guess this is just where you grow up and have to accept your limitations.

What do you think?


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## jeteaa (Jan 23, 2007)

I know this issue can be an emotional one for parents. We just had our 2nd child 11 months ago. And 2 is it for us. I love being pregnant and having a babe to care for. And so far I love all the moments as they grow. I would LOVE to have a house full of kids.... but no matter how much $$$ parents have, I simply think it is irresponsible for one couple to have more than two children. We could raise our kids to be as green, tree hugging, PEACE to all etc, as possible, but we as parents really can't controll how our kids will turn out as adults. So given our current state of over population and how consuming us americans are. I say feel good about reproducing one person for each of you and call it good.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Our third one hasn't cost us much. She gets hand me down not just from her sisters but also all her sisters friends. she really scores. Actually every little girl we know from 4 on down really scores because we have more than we could ever wear. the older ones we shop carefully, a lot of second hand off season but it is all the top brands that all the girls want







: feeding one more doesn't cut into your budget much. We all ready had a seat for her in the car.

that said we don't do classes or lessons or anything really. It would be fun but we can't afford for all three. heck we can't afford for one to do those things really. I also hate having to drag everyone around to lessons and planning our lives around games and practice. I also think of all the gas that gets wasted doing that kind of thing. even if we could afford it I don't think I could justify the waste of time and resources. however I think if they had to make the choice between ballet and tae kwon do or Ava, i would think they would choose Ava hands down. she is more entertainment than money could ever buy. we do stuff through parks and rec, with our homeschool group etc. i feel no obligation to pay for college, and we live in a small 3 bedroom house in a rough neighborhood but we like it. We can be as tacky as we wanna be and don't have to worry about being the tackiest people on the block







We drive a piece of crap car but only when we aren't biking walking or taking the bus. and it is paid off. And all my friends are very impressed at my skills with jumper cables.

We homeschool so they will be able to work more to save money for college (and I really think kids value it more when they pay for it themselves), We do have small savings accounts for them that are growing slowly but steadily. we will teach them about investing at a young age so it will increase faster. In the end though it is there money and they can use it how they want be it college or a car or travel or just making ends meet. we are teaching them to value public transportation and leg powered transportation so owning their own car won't be high on their priority list, we do have some money for extras but they know that life involves choices and we can't have it all, do it all and be it all. and sometimes it falls on them to choose what is important to them.

We also are just blessed to hang out with people who are willing to help us. Grandma gave us her old piano and does piano lessons for us. I know we are blessed to have a skilled musician in our family. And one who is so generous with her time and talent. and old piano (which is still really nice - I think she just wanted an excuse to get a new one







). but we also know about 2 other people that we could have traded or bartered with for free quality piano lessons. We are blessed to have an excellent inexpensive homeschool co-op. 5 hours a week, 25 weeks a year, all for the low cost of $200 for all three girls. I am blessed to have children who would rather have play dates than play soccer or hockey. I am blessed to have friends who know where all the cheap and free entertainment for kids are.

We do not have health insurance but we have a great free clinic and a Dr. office who will bill us. we own our own business and barter occasionally including some medical stuff. but really insurance isn't all its cracked up to be. we crunched the numbers on Ava's birth and even with an extended hospital stay and a horrible infection it still only saved us about $50 when you factored in deductible, co-pay, premiums and such. it really is just cheaper for us to pay as we go. I know it is a risk if something huge happens but if all else fails since we are self employed we can always bottom out our income for a few months and get Medicaid. we are just barely over the line for the girls as it is.

i have a little job to help pay for the extras. I work overnights. One nice perk it has is that part time employees qualify for limited benefits including a medical savings account. That would be nice to have. but really it is amazing how far a little part time job can go towards paying the bills on extras. One shift a week pays for all our homeschool expenses. A second shift a week will pay for braces. 1.5 shifts a week pay for all our groceries - organic mostly. if i wanted all the girls in a lesson of their choice 1 shift a week would pay tuition and equipment. So long as you don't have to pay daycare it is amazing how much you can have for little extras with just 10-20 hours a week.


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## boigrrrlwonder (Jan 18, 2007)

I have one child, who I can't really afford. I live with my parents. I receive public aid. It isn't easy. I didn't plan on having my kid, but continuing the pregnancy and then choosing to parent was the best decision I made. But it's a hard decision. I would love to be able to be a stay-at-home parent, but I can't. I would love to live in my own home, but I can't. I haven't even thought about how I might one day pay for my kid's college - I'm busy getting through college myself. If staying at home and paying for all of this stuff is necessary for you to want to parent another child, then you shouldn't have another, but if you *really* want another child, ask yourself if you could be flexible about some of these things (like having your kids pay for college via student loans, temping periodically to make ends meet, not signing your kids up for enrichment activities, etc...)

BTW, you might want to check your area's restrictions on public aid. WIC here is only for single mothers.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

We struggle financially right now. But we currently support six children with the same finances we could support 1 or 2. When we are financially where we want to be (not excessive, but about where most would feel comfortable supporting 1 or 2 children on) we will easily be able to support a dozen (if we have that many).

I have always felt that more children does not necessarily mean more expenses, it just means being more frugal.


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## Alkenny (May 4, 2004)

I don't work outside the home and my DH doesn't make much money at all comparable to most people...we have all of the above (except for college funds!) for our 3 kids.I agree with Kidzaplenty...it's not about making more money, it's about being more frugal.

Circumstances can change at any moment for ANY of us, so the logic behind 'affording' kids is a little skewed IMO. Everytime you have a child, your budget takes a beating...if we all waited until we could afford them, I don't think ANY of us would have kids.


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## maliceinwonderland (Apr 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alkenny* 
...if we all waited until we could afford them, I don't think ANY of us would have kids.









This is what my mom told me when I was deciding whether or not to have another one (who turned out to be ds!). She said "If you wait until the perfect time to have another one, you'll be waiting forever." And the more I thought about it, the more I realized how right she was. When I had dd, I was in highschool, and working parttime. Definitely not the best situation, but I made it through and wouldn't go back and change a thing. We were very short on money, but we had everything we needed, and found some creative and cheap ways to fill in the other stuff.

Now if I can just convince SO that having a third wouldn't be a problem


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## Jenlaana (Oct 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeteaa* 
I simply think it is irresponsible for one couple to have more than two children.

Wow thats harsh. Why not say its irresponsible to have kids at all? Why 2 specifically? Why not just 1? Just because 2 works for you doesnt make it the magic number after which we are a bane to the world.... Kinda judgemental~

As to the OP's topic... I have 2 children and a third on the way. Our finances have not been a steady decline based on how many children we have. I had my first son with my ex-husband, and when he chose to up and leave us, we were pretty hard up. I worked for $7.50 an hour, and luckily my mortgage was only $150 a month or I wouldn't have made it. Then my DH and I met, and we moved in together and got married. I stopped working and was caring for my son during the day and going to school at night. We were doing fantastic, financially. We moved so my DH could get a better job, and were doing even better. We had my DD and were doing even better financially. Then we bought a house, and now we are in rough shape again. But we're having another baby, just as planned. We wont be bad off enough to go on welfare or anything. We just have to live frugally. (my ex does not ever pay his child support so we don't have that either - I've gotten about a hear of payments total for the 10 yrs he has been gone).

I cannot yet pay for college for my kids, but I know a lot about financial aid, and am not concerned. Any child that wants to go to college WILL be able to go, if they know where to look for funding. Thankfully my DS is far enough ahead of my daughter that if we did have to pay for it, we wouldn't have to do it all at once. Unlike a PP, I do feel that its my responsibility to pay for college. But that doesnt mean I have to have $100k put aside by the time each kid gets there.

Once my kids are all in school (I homeschool my son but plan on putting my daughters into public school) I will go back to work (or my wahm business will take off enough that I don't have to) and I'll be able to help our income that way. As a PP said, if you wait till you can afford them, it may never happen. Life changes. My income has gone from $18,000 a year to $50,000 a year to $38,000 a year to $42,000 a year. Next year it may be $60,000 a year if things go as planned. A few years later it could be $85,000 a year if I go back to work. And it may not. Its never set in stone for us. We take risks (like moving away from family for a job my DH was offered) sometimes they work out and sometimes they dont. In the end, we don't need a lot to be happy. We're happier now than any of us have ever been in our lives (including my DS, who now has a sister and a stable home and pets for the first time ever).

My DS doesnt do a lot of structured activities, but its not because we cant afford them. Its because his condition makes it difficult for him to function in a structured setting (hence why we are homeschooling him and probably not the other 2) Either way, I think there is a lot to be had in life that doesnt cost money, and I am happy that I can share with my kids that not everything that is wonderful is commercialized and expensive. You'd be suprised what your kids will enjoy if they are not innundated with classes and things.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alkenny* 
Circumstances can change at any moment for ANY of us, so the logic behind 'affording' kids is a little skewed IMO. Everytime you have a child, your budget takes a beating...if we all waited until we could afford them, I don't think ANY of us would have kids.









I agree with the second part, but not about the logic being off. It makes sense to not plan for something that you cannot now afford and don't foresee being able to afford.

Of course, what exactly does "afford" mean? For some people, feeding and clothing their kids means they can afford them. My definition of afford is a little different. I feel like I owe it to my child to be sure he has opportunities to enrich his life through classes he would want to take (as a means to fulfilling his own future) and to start off as debt-free as possible. For me, that means that I don't have any more children right now. It also means that I'm available to him as much as possible (while still working full-time, which I do). I'd have to work more to provide another child with the life I think s/he deserves and not detract from my child's current life.


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## mumm (May 23, 2004)

We planned for 3 which we can afford and got a bonus child this round! We will deal with 4 just fine, it is a matter of changing priorities. We do not do many organized programs for several reasons. (1- my kids are shy and would rather play baseball with me and a few friends than do a class or league and 2- they are expensive!) A vacation involves camping.

I think it is just a matter of living within your means. There is a similiar discussion going on over in frugal living about living debt free.

My parents (and my partners' parents) had more children than they could afford. The more motivated children went to college and made it work out. The others did not, which is probably just as well. I think they wouldn't have taken it seriously if the money for school was just handed to them. I knew we were 'poor' growing up (We got wic, food stamps, christmas presents labeled 'girl, 11 years' etc.) and also that our family was much larger than any I knew. I don't think I realized the two were related!

jeteaa- I don't think we are being irresponsible by having 4 children. Our ecological footprint is much smaller than the family of one mom and one child living near us. And I do have some say in how my children will behave as adults-I'm raising them.







Kids learn how the world works from their parents, so they are learning that what we do daily makes a difference in the overall scheme of the world. (geez- we've talked about how needing a larger car changes how we drive.) They don't know that most families create a bag or more of trash every week, while we only need to bring trash to the dump every 3 weeks or so. They'll just continue those habits as they grow older.


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## Peony (Nov 27, 2003)

I've been thinking about this issue as well. I had always planned on having 3-4 DC, then DD2 was born. She has cost us a fortune. She is almost 8 months old and we have spent over 15K on her medical bills alone, if I sat down and added everything up, it probably would be hitting 20K. We have insurance, at $420.00 a month, that is everything insurance will not cover.







:

I grew up not getting any extras", no classes, dance, etc... I won't put my DD's in everything class out there, but one here or there I will do. We will be homeschooling, I do believe that costs more then sending them off to public school.

I had more thoughts but the DD's are awake now.


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## primjillie (May 4, 2004)

I have three children and didn't work when they were young. I would have dearly loved more babies, but we really couldn't afford it. I strongly believe in giving them activities ~ sports, girl scouts, karate, music lessons, etc. ~ within reason, of course. I want my children to be able to go on field trips, attend birthdays parties and not be embarassed by not being able to afford it. We struggled when they were young ~ I babysit off and on for extra money and my husband did side jobs when he could get them. Luckily my husband got a job with the State, so we had health insurance. If I couldn"t afford the basics ~ food, decent clothes and shoes, a home (I hate apartments), working utilities, insurance, plus the reasonable extras ~ sports, etc. as I mentioned above, I wouldn't have any more.


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

I read about a guy who had a large number of kids. He himself was totally uneducated, he farmed, was poor and had no pay of paying for his kids education.

He gave his kids each a rabbit and told them this was the collage $$, invest wisely.

The kids did, they turned those rabbits into chickens and those chickens turned to pigs and so on.

Each of his children went on to collage paid for by their rabbit.

Some of this children became drs others lawyers. What an incredible education that man gave his kids.

We ourselves have 4 kids, have no clue if we will have more. We believe children are a gift from God, if he gives them to us then He will provide.

I myself dug gold ore to pay for my 2 years of highschool at a boarding school of my choice. Did you ever see a 90 pound gal using a 100 lb jackhammer?


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## arlecchina (Jul 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momto l&a* 

I myself dug gold ore to pay for my 2 years of highschool at a boarding school of my choice. Did you ever see a 90 pound gal using a 100 lb jackhammer?

you are amazing! I think you made my day, prolly my whole week!


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Well, you already have two. Some of the goals you mentioned (staying home with the kids, homeschooling) won't be harder with two kids than it would be with three, four or more.

We homeschool and are about to have our fourth. Many of the books that my ds1 is using now, my other kids will be able to use later. All we'll have to get are the workbooks that go with some of them. Grandparents and tax returns have covered any classes he's wanted to take so far.

We aren't planning on fully covering college, though the kids are welcome to live here while they go to college. And if one of them had their heart set on a career path that required a specific degree, I would be happy to get a job to help them pay for it.

We have recently had to go on WIC, but that wasn't the plan. When dh's work switched to company cars and took away his car allowance, we were stuck with a car payment we couldn't afford (and we can't get out of the loan because the amount left is more than what we can sell the stupid car for).

In response to post 17

Quote:

and our daughter won't have to support us when we are old.
, I'd like to add that our four (unless we have more) kids won't have to support us when we're old. While we're scraping in areas now, retirement saving is something that we're taking seriously, along with paying off our house/debt. Plus, at 23 and 27, we have plenty of time to save up for when we retire.


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## Alkenny (May 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
I agree with the second part, but not about the logic being off. It makes sense to not plan for something that you cannot now afford and don't foresee being able to afford.

Of course, what exactly does "afford" mean?

I didn't say the anyone's logic was 'off', but that it can be skewed by exactly what you said...we all see affordability and opportunity in different ways. We all have things available to us in different ways too. Just depends.


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## Diane B (Mar 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LarissaHouTX* 
Hi, I have two kids and would really like to have more. I just know we cant afford to have any more according to our goals for them - for me to stay home, arts/enrichment classes, homeschool, college, etc. My DH is self emp and we are just squeaking by as it is. He and I dont have health ins due to the cost and our weight. We pay for the kids to have a very high deductible coverage. I dont have a high earning profession so, if DH should die, I couldnt support more than 2 kids very well at all. There is government aid but I just cant see "planning" to go on WIC, medicaid, etc by having kids I know I cant afford. And yet, I want more kids. I guess this is just where you grow up and have to accept your limitations.

What do you think?

I think it's just fine to choose to limit your family size based on your financial circumstances! That was a big factor for us (along with being older, and the costs of a second adoption). Having one child means that neither of us has to work full-time so we have more time with her, and we still have some funds available for savings, health care, music lessons and other "extras". We don't live extravagantly by any means, but our cars work, our home will be paid for in a few more years, and our daughter won't have to support us when we are old.

By the way, we are not consumerist at all - we don't shop recreationally, our daughter has modest amounts of toys, she wears used (or highly on-sale) clothing, we mostly cook at home, and we spend our free time on mostly free activities. And still, given where we live, our ages, incomes and how much we choose to work, etc. one child is the right number financially for us. I think it's different for different families, but yes, I think finances should be a consideration in planning your family.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
We homeschool so they will be able to work more to save money for college (and I really think kids value it more when they pay for it themselves), We do have small savings accounts for them that are growing slowly but steadily. we will teach them about investing at a young age so it will increase faster.

I love this idea, thanks for sharing!

I think we will be just fine with 3. We might even go for 4. We aren't very concerned with our kids having all the "stuff" that other people have. We are in a similar boat with insurance. DH is considering going back into the cooperate world (he now works for a small consulting firm with the idea of eventually becoming a partner), in order to get the benefits. The more we talk to friends who are self employeed the more we wonder if he could do it and be the kind of dad he wants to be. There are pros and cons to each way of life. We've had a taste of both, so now we have to decide.

I also feel that a large extended family is a blessing and a priviledge that cannot be so easily dismissed. In my experience, friends and community are not adequate replacements for family.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeteaa* 
I simply think it is irresponsible for one couple to have more than two children.

Wow, how handy for you that you have 2 and you think that is the golden number.


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## FireWithin (Apr 29, 2004)

We plan on having 3 kids. We already have two. I can think of two financially drastic changes for us in the future. We probably would need to upgrade to a car larger than our beloved '97 corolla, and buying a 2 bedroom condo or 2 bedroom house wouldn't make sense. We would really need to look for a 3 bedroom. In our area, that greatly increases the cost.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

Just to answer the original question--yes.









Like Jenny said, we just get more frugal. It also helps to be debt free and avoid future debt like the plague.

The biggest expenses come for the births and groceries--I'm having a harder time keeping to my grocery budget as my boys get older. Someone looking from the outside would say we couldn't support ourselves, let alone 3 children on dh's income, but we have learned how to do it and nobody is suffering. Of course, dh having been born and raised in Ethiopia through the famines and wars, his idea of what a child "needs" and the typical American's idea of "needs" are very, very different.







He's worried our children are spoiled, actually.







:


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## mommato5 (Feb 19, 2007)

I believe that affordability is not the key, it's knowing how to work your budget and be frugal with things.

IMPO, kids don't need half the crap they get. I believe a child is well cared for as long as there is a roof over their heads, food in their bellies, and basic utilities in the home, along with loving parents and an education of some sort. They do not need every toy that comes out. They don't need anything electronic. They do not need the latest fashions. They don't need any of it!

I do take offense that someone said it was irresponsible to have more than two children! Good to know how people look down their noses on those who choose to have more than their ideal amount of children.

MY dh and I are in agreement that it is not our responsiblity to pay for college for our children. I happen to know that they can easily get scholarships, financial aid, and student loans. When my dh was going to go to college he would of had to pay a whopping 3K a semester out of pocket. That's easy to do! If our children choose to go to college, they will have to work towards it. Neither or our parents paid for college and we are doing just fine!


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## offwing (Aug 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommato5* 
I happen to know that they can easily get scholarships, financial aid, and student loans. When my dh was going to go to college he would of had to pay a whopping 3K a semester out of pocket.

Keep an eye on that, because college costs and funding is changing rapidly every year and it is not as easy as it once was. College related costs across the country increase over the last couple of years ... jumping as much as 10-13% per year. At the same time need-based funding, grants, and federal assistance are dropping even for the lowest income families.

My youngest child just graduated with her BS. Personally, I think you are being a little over optimistic over how easy it is to get college funded without being in debt for most of it upon graduation.

I'm not being critical of your parenting decision at all (I think kids should take at least some responsibility for their education) but in my very recent experience it is not as easy as it once was.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

DH convinced me that we need to make a substaintial contribution to college. I think we would be very hard put financially if dh had the debt I have from school - and I worked and got scholarships too. I would not be able to SAHM. It's hard to start out in life with debt. I don't see it as an "obligation", but I do see it as something we want to be able to do for our kids. I love the idea of having them work during their homeschool years and save, but as a supplement to what we will try to save for them too.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *offwing* 
Keep an eye on that, because college costs and funding is changing rapidly every year and it is not as easy as it once was. College related costs across the country increase over the last couple of years ... jumping as much as 10-13% per year. At the same time need-based funding, grants, and federal assistance are dropping even for the lowest income families.

My youngest child just graduated with her BS. Personally, I think you are being a little over optimistic over how easy it is to get college funded without being in debt for most of it upon graduation.

I'm not being critical of your parenting decision at all (I think kids should take at least some responsibility for their education) but in my very recent experience it is not as easy as it once was.









:


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## party_of_seven (May 10, 2004)

We are expecting baby#5 in a few more weeks. I haven't found adding more kids to be too stressful on the budget. I agree with everyone else that you just get more creative and frugal to make up for things.

My kids take piano lessons from a friend at church for $10 a lesson.

With such a large family there are always a few kids willing to play sports together....no need for organized sports activities. They also get to play on teams through our HS group during the school year.

We homeschool, and its really only a major investment for the oldest....books etc. Our HS group costs us $25 a year for the whole family. We are able to attend field trips etc.

We use the public library system and the summer reading program activities to get a lot of those programs they might miss out on....puppet shows, visits from the "bug guy", science club, craft day....

We buy 2nd hand clothing whenever possible, and save all of the hand-me-downs as possible. (I have a full wardrobe for baby#5 weather its a boy or girl







)

We garden and all of the kids help...it takes a large chunk out of our grocery budget and we get great organic veggies for pennies.

We bought a fixer-uper house and have put a lot of sweat equity into it.

We are blessed that dh does have good medical/dental coverage.

Dh also has a large life insurance policy that would be enough that if he were to pass I could invest the money and the interest would be enough to replace his income and allow me to continue to stay home with the kids. I also have one of the same value that dh would be able to invest and hire a nanny/house keeper to help him maintain our home.

We don't plan to pay for college for our kids because I do believe they should earn it. We do plan to support them though as they attend college....room/board at home totally free.

We are not exactly wealthy either....just normal middle class people.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

"Afford" is highly subjective.

When I had ds1, I went on maternity leave. My ex-husband was mostly unemployed (got an occasional 2-3 day drywalling job from a friend). We had no money. Even when I went back to work, things were pretty crappy from a financial standpoint. We only had one child, but there was no way I could stay home (I was the major breadwinner...by about a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio). We didn't have a vehicle. College savings weren't even on the radar. We were extremely limited in what activities we could do. I think a good case could be made that we couldn't afford ds1.

Now, I have ds1, dd, ds2, and baby-under-construction. DH is making more money than I ever did, but not enough more that it would seem we could afford four kids. My kids wear a wardrobe that consists almost entirely of hand-me-downs. We're buying a second-hand, 10-year-old minivan with 100,000 miles on it. We live cheaply. But, we can afford clothes for ds1 when he needs them, and we can send him on some really cool field trips and such. He doesn't have as much as a lot of his friends do, but he's not hurting. We've got a little bit put away for his post-secondary education, but I think he's going to have to find most of that money himself. With the other three...who knows? A 10-year gap leaves a lot of room for change, and dd's post-secondary future is a long way off.

As long as the basics are covered, I really think "afford" is hard to define.


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## mummyto3girls (May 13, 2007)

Quote:

I simply think it is irresponsible for one couple to have more than two children.
huh????

is it irresponsible to have more than 2 kids???







: That really offends me becuase we have 3 kids and we're planning to have 1 or maybe 2 more..

Well, we can afford our DD's, DD1 is in a independent school, so our expenses in school are:Uniform(her soccer uniform, daily uniform and PE uniform), Books, etc. That will double this year as DD2 is entering as well.
They have one activity in the afternoon, twice a week, new clothing for the 3 girls the grocery bill doubled this year etc...

So, yes we can afford our 3 kids..


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## maliceinwonderland (Apr 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeteaa* 
So given our current state of over population and how consuming us americans are. I say feel good about reproducing one person for each of you and call it good.

But if your parents had more than two, and you're not one of the first two, isn't it irresponsible to reproduce at all, considering you were an extra? (Not you specifically, I mean you in general)


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Good question - and isn't it irresponsible to reproduce at all when you know there are all these other irresponsible people out there having *way* more than 2?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
I also feel that a large extended family is a blessing and a priviledge that cannot be so easily dismissed. In my experience, friends and community are not adequate replacements for family.

Well said!

We have two right now, but would love to have a third if God wills it. I'm 43 so we'll see what happens in that department!

I always wanted a really BIG family -- but didn't marry 'til 35 so big for me has to be a little smaller than for those who started younger.

I'll never say "No!" if God wants to bless us with another baby. The God who provides also makes a way for us to provide.


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## mbhf (Jan 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
Good question - and isn't it irresponsible to reproduce at all when you know there are all these other irresponsible people out there having *way* more than 2?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *maliceinwonderland* 
But if your parents had more than two, and you're not one of the first two, isn't it irresponsible to reproduce at all, considering you were an extra? (Not you specifically, I mean you in general)

yes, this. I understand the concept of one for one, and i can see how someone would be all about it, but if someone honestly felt this way wouldn't they want to have no biological children at all? to make up for all of the people having 3 or more?

anyway, back to the OP. yes, we have three kids and we can afford them all. we will probobly have a couple more and we will be able to afford them as well. my husband has a good job that pays well and has excellent benefits, but he would do whatever he had to do to support our family. we do not plan on paying for our kids college. i think people appreciate it more and work harder if they go when they are ready (often not right after high school) and pay for it themselves. my best friend and my BIL both graduated from college recently (2 months ago and a few years ago) with no debt and they paid for everything (including living expenses) themselves. they had jobs, worked hard at work and at school, had a great time and got a good education. most people i know did the same thing. my dh's college was paid for by the Navy, and they also paid him a salary since he was active duty, but he definately would have had time to work a full time job if he'd had to. sorry to go on and on, this is sort of a sore spot for me since my parents refuse to let my 17 year old sister pay for her own education, so she had to go to a school she didn't want to attend because it was less expensive for my parents.









our kids also won't be paying for us in our old age. we set aside a good portion of my husbands pay for retirement in addition to what he will get if he chooses to stay in and retire from the Navy.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mbhf* 
yes, this. I understand the concept of one for one, and i can see how someone would be all about it, but if someone honestly felt this way wouldn't they want to have no biological children at all? to make up for all of the people having 3 or more?

Exactly! That's why many in the childfree crowd refer to parents as "breeders" -- not just parents of more than 2, but parents in general.


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

We can "afford" our three kids because we have lots of love to give. IMO, a child's happiness is not dependent on his/her parents' income.

We are currently pretty comfortably financially, but we realize that this could change with our next breath. Illnesses, accidents, deaths, fires, tornadoes -- they can all happen to anyone, and that's when the world shows you just how "financially secure" you really were.

Of course, it's a personal choice, but if you are able to provide basic needs for your children and especially enough love to go around, that's enough, IMO.


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## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

At the age of 24, my parents had 3 kids. They lived at poverty level, but we never really knew it as young children. When we were older, my parents were doing better, but things were still tight. But, if things were important to us, my parents figured out how to manage. I got braces, and my parents managed to pay for a flute. I never had private lessons, but I knew the flute was a sacrifice, and I stayed in Band all through high school and really enjoyed it. Through public schools, I was involved in plenty of activities that did not cost very much. My brothers did baseball, soccer, and cub scouts. I did not have a college savings account, except for what I saved myself. But, through financial aid and hard work, I put myself through school with a minimum amount of debt. And I got a lot more out of my college education then those who were there on mommy & daddy's dime, but really only cared about partying. We didn't have a lot, but I sure appreciated what we DID have. I'm more afraid of trying to give my boys all the things I didn't get and having them end up with a sense of entitlement.

If my parents could do it, so can we. We're not raking in the dough, but we've planned and saved, and we're doing all right. We're planning on having at least one more. Right now, it just doesn't feel like our family is complete. And I think that's really the ONLY factor to look at when deciding whether or not to have another child. Do you want another child in your family to love and care for, or do you feel like your family is the perfect size right now? I think the parents' emotional and mental coping skills, as well as the strength of their relationship is a much more important factor than finances.

Financial circumstances can change overnight... for worse OR for the better. If you're worried about putting food on the table and keeping a roof over your heads, then I can see choosing not to have another child because you can't afford it. But, if it's the difference between club sports and recreational, or Ivy League vs. a State school, or paying 100% of your child's college tuition vs. 75% (letting them work for the rest), then I just don't see it. If you have a child who wants the music or the sports or the particular school badly enough, then help them figure out a way to get there. They'll appreciate it more AND get to feel that sense of accomplishment that will never come if everything is handed to them on a silver platter.

As for the environmental impact argument... I know some childless couples with huge houses, SUVs, extra vehicles, summer homes, etc. that are making a much bigger negative impact on our world resources than we ever would with a whole pack of kids.


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## Sonnenwende (Sep 9, 2006)

Afford to me doesn't just mean what I can offer my child, it means supporting the lifestyle I want my family to live altogether. When I think about what my husband and I want out of the future and the life we want for ourselves and daughter, we just can't see how another mouth to feed fits into it. Fine, but I was never sold on the idea of wanting other children in the first place like OP was/is. YMMV.


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## anitaj71 (Mar 1, 2006)

Interesting that this thread has come up . . . I was talking to dh the other night and lamenting how expensive it is to raise our four kids. Just this week one needed glasses $160.00 the other had serious cavities $560.00. That doesn't even include the cleaning for their teeth! Arrgh. Then there's the grocery bills. We eat at home a lot and I make a lot of our food from scratch but with two teenagers, an 11 yr old and a toddler - the food the three oldest consume alone is huge. I am cooking in the kitchen constantly. We are in Canada so there are no serious medical bills however we still have to pay monthly premiums. . . . anyway, can you afford kids? We do and manage to do it debt free ( thanks to my dh excellent money manageing) it just can be expensive sometimes - yes?


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## Bellejar (Oct 2, 2005)

There are many college opportunities out there that require little or no money from parents. For example in Georgia they have the hope scholarship program where every student with a B or better average is given free tuition to a state school. I don't think that college tuition should be the determining factor in whether or not to have children. As for health insurance, hopefully we will have some sort of socialized medicine at some point! Although, I wouldn't hold your breath.

We have two and are trying for a third right now. I think the person who said that having more than two is irresponsible has it completely wrong. I personally think all well-educated well-adjusted people should have as many children as they can personally tolerate. It seems to me that the wrong people have all the children these days.

We are set financially. Although we live in an expensive area. My husband works for Microsoft as a software developer and I am a SAHM. Our biggest savings came in the form of buyin a fixer house that was well within our budget. I have friends whose mortgages eat up scary amounts of there income.

I am by trade an attorney. I don't practice right now, except for handling things for friends but I am building two houses as a real estate speculator this year. I was making quite a bit before I quit my job to stay home, but I don't mind driving a 10 year old car, and living in the worst house in the neighborhood, if it means I get to spend time with my children!!!


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybee* 
At the age of 24, my parents had 3 kids. They lived at poverty level, but we never really knew it as young children. When we were older, my parents were doing better, but things were still tight. But, if things were important to us, my parents figured out how to manage. I got braces, and my parents managed to pay for a flute. I never had private lessons, but I knew the flute was a sacrifice, and I stayed in Band all through high school and really enjoyed it. Through public schools, I was involved in plenty of activities that did not cost very much. My brothers did baseball, soccer, and cub scouts. I did not have a college savings account, except for what I saved myself. But, through financial aid and hard work, I put myself through school with a minimum amount of debt. And I got a lot more out of my college education then those who were there on mommy & daddy's dime, but really only cared about partying. We didn't have a lot, but I sure appreciated what we DID have. I'm more afraid of trying to give my boys all the things I didn't get and having them end up with a sense of entitlement.

If my parents could do it, so can we. We're not raking in the dough, but we've planned and saved, and we're doing all right. We're planning on having at least one more. Right now, it just doesn't feel like our family is complete. And I think that's really the ONLY factor to look at when deciding whether or not to have another child. Do you want another child in your family to love and care for, or do you feel like your family is the perfect size right now? I think the parents' emotional and mental coping skills, as well as the strength of their relationship is a much more important factor than finances.

Financial circumstances can change overnight... for worse OR for the better. If you're worried about putting food on the table and keeping a roof over your heads, then I can see choosing not to have another child because you can't afford it. But, if it's the difference between club sports and recreational, or Ivy League vs. a State school, or paying 100% of your child's college tuition vs. 75% (letting them work for the rest), then I just don't see it. If you have a child who wants the music or the sports or the particular school badly enough, then help them figure out a way to get there. They'll appreciate it more AND get to feel that sense of accomplishment that will never come if everything is handed to them on a silver platter.

As for the environmental impact argument... I know some childless couples with huge houses, SUVs, extra vehicles, summer homes, etc. that are making a much bigger negative impact on our world resources than we ever would with a whole pack of kids.











I loved this post. Especially since DH and I are 24 and expecting our third child.


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Personally, I'm really sick of this "it's so selfish/irresponsible to have more than x number of kids" bs.

It's all about your priorities and desires. If you want a big house and lots of disposable cash, you probably don't think you can afford more kids. If those things aren't important to you, you probably can. I care about having a home, plenty of good food, and money to treat my kids to a movie or something once in awhile. I don't care about having a 3000+sq foot house and 2 luxury cars and dining in fancy restaraunts 2 or 3 times a week. I'm not saying that wanting a certain type of lifestyle is bad, but I get irked when people assume that because they want the "american dream" we all do. And if you say you don't, you're just "jealous" or lying. I really *don't care* about those things.

If we had to, we could cancel our satellite, WoW accounts, and internet. That would save us around $200 a month. I enjoy it all, but if it's between that and "affording" another child, I'd rather have another child.

I also think a lot of people don't realize how much they spend on things they don't need. A few bucks here and there can really add up. I know I'm always surprised when I look over receipts while I'm balancing my checkbook. There's so much money I could save if I had to.

We're working on becoming debt free, or at least as debt-free as possible. We're practicing Catholics who use NFP and whatever number of kids God gives to us is the right number. I can't imagine that on my death bed I'll be saying "Gee, I wish I hadn't had those last couple of kids so I could take a cruise to the Bahamas instead." I'm certainly not judging anyone who would rather have a cruise than a kid, but it's just not what's important to me. Every child I have is a blessing and a gift from God, even if we have to struggle. And besides, we've got grandma to spoil them rotten









Speaking of grandma, my mom was the 4th of 7 kids and they lived off of around 5k a year for 9 people. My mom was born in '59, had no electricity or indoor plumbing, and had "beans and taters" at most meals. She apperciates her childhood and admits it was hard, but she's thankful for it and for all her parents did. So maybe it's just genetic


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## newCTmama (Mar 1, 2007)

I'm really enjoying this thread - many inspiring responses!!!


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## primjillie (May 4, 2004)

It sounds like most people who are responding have planned and thought about adding more kids to their household. I think the question was (and I could be wrong!), what if you really can't afford them? Do you have them anyway and hope for the best? I am a Christian, but it does bother me when someone said "God will provide". I know their are many mamas on here, struggling terribly and not getting by, so I don't think that is always true. As another poster mentioned - glasses, dental bills, etc. ~ kids are expensive. Even if you have hand me downs, plan to homeschool, bf, cosleep, etc., they do get expensive as they get older. I guess my question is ~ if you know you can't afford another child, do you go ahead and have one anyway and hope for the best? (When I talk about afford, I'm talking about feeding them more than beans and ramen and being able to keep the lights on)


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

People understand their faiths in different ways. I feel like stewardship of what I have is an important aspect of my faith, and I feel like that means I need to "plan" my family, not just take whatever comes. (With my family history, "taking what comes" would probably mean something like 16 kids spaced 1-2 years apart!) I also believe it is an important aspect of my faith to be open to child and see them as blessings. I'm Jewish, but my beliefs on family planning line up pretty well with what is taught by the Couple to Couple League that teaches natural family planning.


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## jeteaa (Jan 23, 2007)

Really sorry!!! I did not intend to insult anyone with more than 2 kids. I just view the idea of being able to "afford" our children in a more world sense. With the idea that to bring another person into this world does not just "cost" us as parents, but the world as a whole. Every person "costs" this world natural resources and creates pollution.


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## AlmostAPpropriate (Oct 23, 2004)

Thanks for all the great responses. I am still pondering but am about to go get myself some birthcontrol something because it looks like I'll be going back to work sooner than later and I DO NOT want to have to work during any of my childrens 1st year.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
People understand their faiths in different ways. I feel like stewardship of what I have is an important aspect of my faith, and I feel like that means I need to "plan" my family, not just take whatever comes. (

You know...I used to think like that. My plan was two kids, close together (say 18-24 months), then about 3 years, then another two kids.

It took me 10 years to have dd. So much for that plan. I'm still going to have all my kids, but my four almost ended up being one.

My SIL had her plan, too...one child with my brother, in addition to her child from a previous relationship. That child ended up being twins. When she got her tubes tied not too long afterwards, it turned out she was already pregnant (don't think she'd had a period since the twins). So, her two children ended up being four.

My sister was going to have one with her husband, in addition to the one she already had. She had a an "oops" pregnancy after her second (think the condom failed, but I didn't ask for details) - it ended up being twins. So, her two ended up being four.

I don't give a thought to planning a family any more. Nobody I can think of ended up having their plan work out. I'm just hoping I avoid the trend for twins in our family (no previous history!), because four kids 4 and under sounds a little...much...


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *primjillie* 
...I am a Christian, but it does bother me when someone said "God will provide". I know their are many mamas on here, struggling terribly and not getting by, so I don't think that is always true. As another poster mentioned - glasses, dental bills, etc. ~ kids are expensive. Even if you have hand me downs, plan to homeschool, bf, cosleep, etc., they do get expensive as they get older. I guess my question is ~ if you know you can't afford another child, do you go ahead and have one anyway and hope for the best? (When I talk about afford, I'm talking about feeding them more than beans and ramen and being able to keep the lights on)

Hmmm ... well, we've always had more food options than beans and ramen, and we've never had any of our utilities shut off -- so, heck, according to your definition we certainly can afford more ...

I know this isn't exactly a religious thread, so I don't want to go off-topic. I'll simply say that I don't see hardship and struggling as signs that God isn't providing. I simply believe God opens and closes the womb, and doesn't give a baby without the means to raise him/her. I didn't say it would always be easy: nothing of value is.

I also believe in following God's design for breastfeeding on cue and child-led weaning, which has spaced my first two children almost five years apart (and even if I got pregnant right now, there'd be at least three years between my second and third).

I realize some who practice the same style of breastfeeding get pregnant a lot sooner, and I believe that means they're uniquely capable of mothering children much closer in age.

I simply added the part about extended breastfeeding to emphasize my belief that trusting God to plan your family doesn't usually mean you'll have twenty-five children ten months apart (though I guess it could mean that for a few very special women).


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## Kleine Hexe (Dec 2, 2001)

I'm just laughing to myself and all the timely threads talking about having more than 2 kids. I'm trying to decide by this time next month.

I also would like for my kids to be able to participate in activities like martial arts and music. I'm trying to find a frugal piano teacher right now (ideas welcome).

DH makes decent money and I am able to stay home. We are working hard to pay off debt. Right now we couldn't afford extra things with 3 kids....can't afford extra things with the two we have now. However, once we get a big portion of our debt paid off we will be able to afford more things.

As for DH dieing and me having to support 3 kids on my own....well, I pray that never happens of course. He has life insurance although I'd like for it to be higher. Yet, life is life and you can't really plan it. You can but you just never really know what lies ahead.

Here's something to throw in the mix.... I worry about my kids having to be in a war during their lifetime. It makes me sick to my stomach to think that the future might hold war for my children. (All children for that matter)


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## LiciaDawn (Jun 14, 2007)

My DH family was very poor growing up. His mom was single, working 2 jobs just to pay rent and put food on the table. She didn't have enough money for Christmas or birthday presents and she had no family support, it was all on her shoulders. Her best friend went out and bought a couple coloring books, some crayons, and some little match box cars...spent less than $10 each kid, and this is all they recieved that christmas. But both my DH and SIL remember that Christmas as the best one they ever had because they played together, had a good time, sang songs, ect. The moral of the story is if you want more kids, have more kids. Be creative with expenses. I have 3 children, I am SAHM and my husband has a good job with all the benefits, but we are still creative because we want our kids to appreciate the earth and the things that they have. Children will play together and they will be each others favorite play things.
If you want more, have more. If you dont, you will regret it when you are older. I would say the most important thing to consider is not money. It is if you feel like you have the strength and patients to handle more children. But like I said earlier, once they get a little older, they will play together and become less needy.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I don't give a thought to planning a family any more. Nobody I can think of ended up having their plan work out. I'm just hoping I avoid the trend for twins in our family (no previous history!), because four kids 4 and under sounds a little...much...

The NFP "plan" is that each month you pray and ask yourself if there is any good reason why you shouldn't conceive another child this month. That is a little different from what you describe (spacing them a certain amount of time, etc.). I'm having mine much closer than I would have "planned" using this method! (3 under 4) At the same time, I am feeling that I am very much nearing the point where I am at the limit of my abilities and need a break from babies. I have a feeling that for many months to come the answer is going to be that there is a very good reason not to conceive this month. I do breastfeed beyond 1 year, but I do not breastfeed ecologically - I dislike it intensely and have great admiration for women that can tolerate it.


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## rayo de sol (Sep 28, 2006)

This is an interesting thread.

I'm surprised by how many people aren't worried about college expenses. College is a significant enough expense that the large majority of Americans never go to college, so I would be worried about expecting a child to shoulder the expense by himself/herself. And college can make a big difference in the salary someone will end up earning.

Check the U.S. Census statistics: http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/...on/004214.html

Quote:

College Degree Nearly Doubles Annual Earnings,
Census Bureau Reports

New information from the U.S. Census Bureau reinforces the value of a college education: workers 18 and over with a bachelor's degree earn an average of $51,206 a year, while those with a high school diploma earn $27,915. Workers with an advanced degree make an average of $74,602, and those without a high school diploma average $18,734.

According to new tables released on the Internet titled Educational Attainment in the United States: 2004, 85 percent of those age 25 or older reported they had completed at least high school and 28 percent had attained at least a bachelor's degree - both record highs.


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## Mama Poot (Jun 12, 2006)

We currently have two children and plan on having possibly two more, but no more than 4. We do not believe in paying for our childrens' college educations in full so this will never be a consideration. DH paid for college by himself with scholarships, grants, and loans. I did the same. Higher education is a privilege that is earned by good grades and good behavior. If one of my kids grows up and decides to be a lazy do-nothing, do you honestly think I would waste my money on paying for college when they won't do anything but slack off? Hell no. And yes even with the *BEST* parenting, some kids just turn out that way. I intend to return to the "working world", although doing what I'm not sure, but my children will probably not be homeschooled. We live very frugally, mostly out of necessity but also because we're just that way. Even though things are tight right now, I can say with confidence that yes, we can afford the children we have, and I know in the future we will be able to afford more.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

I was one of three. We have three. (Dp grew up an only.)

There are a lot of factors. For me, two was a definite regardless of current financial situation. We were lucky to be able to do what we wanted to on dp's income; I stayed home for 10 years with the kids.

Now we have two in private school, and I'll tell you that that will really throw your finances for a loop!







: In two more years, we'll have all three there. I have no idea how we'll pull that off but we'll figure something out. I am always amazed at how much I save if I just keep my butt out of Gymboree, HA, Target, Costco, etc. If I just don't buy anything on eBay or disneyoutlet.com or anywhere else, and we keep an eye on eating out, we do ok. I am good at buying almost everything we need on sale, from food to clothes.

I did reuse all our baby stuff (including clothes as we have three summer girls). But the food bill does go up. You need a car big enough to take a family of five (plus we carpool to a lot of things; saves my sanity). I want them to be able to take gymnastics and swimming and piano and be in Girl Scouts. And I do want to contribute to their weddings, as well as pay for the majority of college if possible.

I don't think they get their own car; dp (I still type dh and go back to fix it every time!) would like to take them to buy a new or used car when they turn 16 or 18, but I am totally against that idea. Not hard to figure out that his dad took him truck shopping, but I drove family cars when they weren't in use by adults.

I am really sad at the number of people without health insurance. I think that many of the things I need/want could be done much more frugally, but some kind of health insurance seems necessary to me. For me, that falls into the roof over your head, food to eat, clothes that fit category.

I think that there is always a way to make it work. But at some point, that can get pretty stressful. I think that if my family was really struggling financially, we'd wait on any future kids until the situation changed.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

New information from the U.S. Census Bureau reinforces the value of a college education: workers 18 and over with a bachelor's degree earn an average of $51,206 a year, while those with a high school diploma earn $27,915.
We make $50-60k a year depending on dh's commission and how many childcare clients I have. Both of us dropped out of high school. He never went to college. I have a whopping semester of higher education.

Quote:

I believe the census info is talking about 1 person's income, while you are talking about combined, phathui5.
Ok, to clarify (I have no sense of privacy), his averages $47k while mine goes between $8k and $12k. Mine is that low because 1) I only take part-time childcare kids (with one exception) and 2) I don't take as many kids as I am allowed to, though I've considered it.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

I believe the census info is talking about 1 person's income, while you are talking about combined, phathui5.

I think the college issue really boils down to if you want your children to have an easier time getting started in life than you did or not. I paid (am paying) for my education, but dh had most of his paid for. Not having double the debt is one of the biggest reasons why I can stay home and never had to enter the work force - I consider it a great gift. It was a gift dh's parents gave their grandchildren. After seeing the impact of what dh's parents did for him on our lives every day, I want to be able to reward my children's good grades and behavior with a college education. Of course, if they want to screw off, then I won't feel any obligation.


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## party_of_seven (May 10, 2004)

As far as paying for college goes.....I would much rather be putting my money away to save for retirement/old age so that I don't become a major burden on my children while they are trying to raise _their_ families. I certainly won't be praying that social security is going to save me









I feel that there are plenty of economical ways to get through college without mountains of debt.....like living at home, using local community colleges, applying for grants, and studying hard for scholarships. I'm sure my kids will end up with some debt but nothing that can't be overcome.

My views are also a little colored by my step-sister's experiences with college. She inherited a VERY large sum of money when she turned 18. It was plenty to pay for her entire education.....$60-$70,000 I believe. She crapped all of that money away, failed out of college and didn't even end up with an associates degree. She regrets it today....she has said so herself.

I think that young adults can have such a hard time with all of that freedom. Having to work hard and earn something as valuable as an education is not a lesson easily learned when everything is handed to them.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

But isn't there a difference between saying "if you behave yourself, work hard and get good grades, we will help you pay for college" and just handing over $60,000? It seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LiciaDawn* 
The moral of the story is if you want more kids, have more kids. Be creative with expenses. I have 3 children, I am SAHM and my husband has a good job with all the benefits, but we are still creative because we want our kids to appreciate the earth and the things that they have. Children will play together and they will be each others favorite play things.
If you want more, have more. If you dont, you will regret it when you are older. I would say the most important thing to consider is not money. It is if you feel like you have the strength and patients to handle more children. But like I said earlier, once they get a little older, they will play together and become less needy.

Yeah, that!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
But isn't there a difference between saying "if you behave yourself, work hard and get good grades, we will help you pay for college" and just handing over $60,000? It seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I agree that we'd like to help our children as much as we can to get the very best start in life, the best for each of them individually, according to their personal goals. This may mean college or trade schools for some, travel opportunities for others -- even a chance to focus on artwork, music, or writing for others.

So I want each of my children to feel welcome to stay in our home as long as they want to, which means they'll have an opportunity to pursue their dreams, and build their careers, without having to worry about living expenses at first. I think local community colleges are a great option, as that's where my brother and I both did our first two years of coursework.

Even with my bachelor's degree, during my years in the workforce I never earned as much as what's listed as the average for someone with a highschool diploma. That's why I think our unschooling lifestyle, and giving our children plenty of opportunities to pursue various interests through venues such as volunteer work and apprenticeships, plus part-time jobs (maybe even home-based businesses), is just as important as college.

I want them to know what to _do_ with their educations, how to utilize the available information in a way that's meaningful and helpful to them personally. A young person with a strong sense of who she is and where she's going isn't going to be hurt by a large financial gift, nor is she going to be hindered by financial challenges.

I'm noticing that young children have a strong interest in shadowing adults and gaining the skills they need to succeed in life. I think the main reason they lose this interest is they're told, "School is your work right now." After spending 12 years following someone else's goals and schedules, many of us lost touch with our inner creativity -- to the point where we didn't know how to handle the opportunities we were given.

To me, an even better gift than opportunity is the ability to recognize opportunity before you stumble over it. There's lots of opportunity out there, just not enough sense of purpose.

So, in response to a previous poster: no I'm not especially "worried" about college expenses. That doesn't mean I don't have strong concerns: my focus is just different than that of some.


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## Kleine Hexe (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rayo de sol* 
This is an interesting thread.

I'm surprised by how many people aren't worried about college expenses. College is a significant enough expense that the large majority of Americans never go to college, so I would be worried about expecting a child to shoulder the expense by himself/herself. And college can make a big difference in the salary someone will end up earning.

Check the U.S. Census statistics: http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/...on/004214.html


Speaking with my personal experience here....I have a BS and if I had gotten a job after college I would have made around $30K. I know two men, neither of which have even an AA degree, and one makes over $90K and the other makes over $160K. Another friend of mine also has no college and makes $60K without her DH's income. So while I value education in and of itself, I'm not convinced that a college degree means more earning potential.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rayo de sol* 
This is an interesting thread.

I'm surprised by how many people aren't worried about college expenses. College is a significant enough expense that the large majority of Americans never go to college, so I would be worried about expecting a child to shoulder the expense by himself/herself. And college can make a big difference in the salary someone will end up earning.

A couple of points here.

1) I'm not American - I'm Canadian, so you weren't specifically talking about me or mine.. However, if someone had been willing to pay 100% of my tuition, books and living expenses while I pursued a degree, that wouldn't even have come close to making college tempting to me. I don't know what factors come into play with other people's decisions, but I certainly hope nobody ever includes me in statements about the expense being why people don't get a post-secondary education.

2) I'm not "worried" about college expenses, because I don't see them as my responsibility. If any of my kids want to pursue a post-secondary education, I'll help to the extent that I reasonably can, but I don't see it as my responsibility. I also don't want them thinking that I expect them to attend university or that it's some kind of requirement.

3) I'm not trying to ensure that my children make any particular salary when they're on their own. I could pay for them to go through university, and have them chuck it all to become a "starving artist". I want them to find the path that works for them, not for me. I've known plenty of people who make a whole lot more money than I ever have (or ever will, in all likelihood), and most of them were no happier, and in many cases less happy, than me. I'd be terribly afraid of what message my children would get if I stayed on the "we're taking money from now so that you will attend university and make big bucks when you complete your degree" theme. I don't want my kids to starve...but it's not up to me to ensure that they make a certain dollar value, either.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
I think the college issue really boils down to if you want your children to have an easier time getting started in life than you did or not.

One problem I see with this is that it's very easy for a desire to have your children have an easier start turn into a flat-out expectation that they will attend university/college, whether they want to or not. How many complete a degree, get a job in their field, and then realize they don't really want to work in that field at all? How many people get degrees, not because they want them, or are particularly interested in what they're studying, but because mom and dad told them to?


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Hehe, well, I'm the Masters in English Linguistics who helps little babies at home learn to speak. I don't think the only thing of value a college education gives you is more earning potential. I also don't think that going to college is the only way to have a "successful" life. There is definately an encouragement toward higher education in our family - but that doesn't mean we wouldn't support a child who wanted to take another path.


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## Mama Poot (Jun 12, 2006)

Jumping back in...With regards to "extras" like art and music classes, DH and I are fortunate that both of us are professional musicians and will be able to pass our knowledge and talents on to our children, if they are interested in learning of course. We both play violin and I play piano. I do hope that they will want to learn an instrument someday, even if it isn't the ones we play. I can also paint fairly well and I could easily get them started on art. DH and I were never highly involved in sports activities. I tried running track but didn't have the stamina for it







And DH enjoys playing tennis and raquetball. Should they want to play a sport, AND play an instrument AND do this and do that, certainly limits will have to be set. I think kids are far too overscheduled nowadays, and of course the expense must be considered as well ( violins are expensive and so is maintaining them. A set of strings alone can go as high as $100, more than that for large string instruments like bass ) But admittedly we are lucky that we can take care of these kinds of artistic things largely on our own. We feel that music is an extremely important part of education, and even if we weren't musicians ourselves we would definitely find a way to make sure our children were exposed to it.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeteaa* 
Really sorry!!! I did not intend to insult anyone with more than 2 kids. I just view the idea of being able to "afford" our children in a more world sense. With the idea that to bring another person into this world does not just "cost" us as parents, but the world as a whole. Every person "costs" this world natural resources and creates pollution.

See I am totally anti-Maltheusian and have extreme faith in human capacity of ultimate self-interest which powers tremendous innovations.

While yes, each person has a significant footprint in terms of environmental resources, humanity, so far, has actually managed to create more than we destroy. The most important resource any country, any company, or any community has is its people - current and future generations. Without people, we have nothing.

We have to do better, no doubt. But if you look at where we are, technologically, medically, ethically, politically, and physically, compared to 1000 years ago, or even 100 years ago, we are so much healthier, richer, more politically free, more educated, etc. etc. and who made this happen? People. We did. And we have to keep going.

There are huge chunks of the population left out of this growth. We have to keep going in ways that are loads more sustainable and respectful of this planet. But the only way OUT of this mess is clever thinking and lots of human ingenuity. And for that, we need more people. Smart, politically conscious, hardworking, motivated people.

My 2 cents.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
We make $50-60k a year depending on dh's commission and how many childcare clients I have. Both of us dropped out of high school. He never went to college. I have a whopping semester of higher education.

Sorry, just to clarify, is that household income or each? because if it is household income, your statement just reinforced the quote. If it is each, then earning over $100K a year puts you into a top income field, which is great.

And while that is great that your income is so high despite not having college degrees, the fact is that fewer and fewer entry level jobs are open to those without a college degree. With so many people in higher education, those without a college degree in the next few years will find themselves increasingly at a disadvantage. Heck, my FIL, who used to run companies, was unable to find a job for 5 years because he lacked a college degree.

In fact, there is degree escalation - in certain fields, you cannot get promoted without a relevant master's degree - and there are NO grants for most masters programs - many cost upwards of $80K for tuition.

Is it fair or meaningful or make any sense? Not really. But it is reality.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

To answer the OP and other PPs.

Afford is SO subjective. And the entire conversation has an underlying assumption - that children bring no economic value to a family - only economic drain.

This is fundamentally at odds with many other cultures, mainly because their economic systems are very different. With lower fixed costs and higher opportunities for children to add to their family's income (from helping with running the household, watching smaller children, tending to crops or animals, to actual child labor), children are seen as a family resource, and healthy, able bodied children are valued (though differently by gender, of course).

In the US/Western Europe, we forbid our children from working until age 16 and middle class values say that parents who require the wages of their teenagers are lacking in their ability to earn. "Raising" children includes enrichment activities, full time education until age 18 (or 21), high quality of healthcare, and many many costs.

I am not saying our way is bad and the other way is good - in fact, as a mom raised in this culture, I take no issue with not sending kids down the mine at age 6 ; ). However, I think it helps me to remember how much of our concepts of "affordable" come from our preconceptions of what is "normal" and expected.

I think we should also realize that in the US, our culture of diminishing social security support and aging babyboomers, more and more of us parents are going to be the main social support for our parents, not just for our kids - which in a way is how we "pay back" our parents for raising us.

Just some thoughts.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeteaa* 
I simply think it is irresponsible for one couple to have more than two children.

Wow. Good thing your number two wasn't a multiple birth.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

I have no "faith" in college degrees getting anyone anywhere. My DH has a BS degree and his income after 10 years in his field is less than 25K. I have had two years of college, no degree, and can earn a couple dollars less than my DH, and if I put a little work into finding the right place, I could match his income easily. However I am a SAHM, so I don't.

My mom has a degree and has been working in her field for over 35 years, and only makes about half more than my DH. My brother has had a total of one semester of college, no further education and is in the top of his field making twice what my mom makes, near the six digit range.

I don't want my children to 'just' go to college to get a degree. Because a degree will NOT automatically open the doors. I want them to find their dream and then I will help them achieve it, whatever the cost. No we do not have much money, but I am excellent at finding options and solutions to unattainable things. So I am just focusing my children on THEIR dreams. I will follow it up with finding the path to achieve it. Money is not the issue.


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## Verity (Aug 29, 2003)

I'm definitely concerned about paying for college. It is so expensive that I don't think it's very realistic to plan for them to pay their own way. I have three children, and I want them to have options, not to be stuck going to the cheapest in-state school.

If I had really thought it through rationally, I doubt I would have had a third child.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kleine Hexe* 
Speaking with my personal experience here....I have a BS and if I had gotten a job after college I would have made around $30K. I know two men, neither of which have even an AA degree, and one makes over $90K and the other makes over $160K. Another friend of mine also has no college and makes $60K without her DH's income. So while I value education in and of itself, I'm not convinced that a college degree means more earning potential.

IME, it really depends on where you are and what field you want to get into. Around here, you're lucky to get a foot in the door practically anywhere if you don't have at least a Bachelor's degree. It can even be really hard to find a job if you have a Master's and I have law school classmates who are either still unemployed a year out (coming from a very good law school) or having to take government jobs at a far lower rate of pay than they should. I have a feeling it's only going to get more difficult as our kids get older and big business gets even more pervasive. From what I've seen, in many, if not most, places, these $60k/year with no degree people are the exception to the rule. And they often are making $60K or $90K after *years* of working, whereas one can go to graduate school and sometimes make 6 figures or close right out of the gate.

All that said, I'm not saving for ds' college right now. I'm saving for my retirement because I would prefer to be able to help him with his college debt after the fact, knowing that I won't be a burden on him when I get older. If I could have afford to have another child and still fund my retirement account (and give ds the childhood I feel he deserves), then I'd do it in a heartbeat. If I had to choose between funding my retirement and having another child, then I wouldn't have one. I don't feel it would be fair to go into having another child knowing that that child would have to take care of me in his/her old ago. Plus, I really don't want to be working until I'm 70.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Verity* 
If I had really thought it through rationally, I doubt I would have had a third child.

Well, I'm sure your third child thanks you for taking a break from being rational.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Well, I'm sure your third child thanks you for taking a break from being rational.









Actually, that is what I was thinking.







:

I just can not imagine having chose to NOT have any of my children. They are all so unique and special. Just thinking about having made a choice to not have any one of them makes me sad. I would do anything necessary to have my children. I love them so very much and they could never be replaced with another child. I just can't imagine my life without them at all either. I would be incomplete. And the world would be missing out on a wonderful addition.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty* 
I just can not imagine having chose to NOT have any of my children. They are all so unique and special. Just thinking about having made a choice to not have any one of them makes me sad. I would do anything necessary to have my children. I love them so very much and they could never be replaced with another child. I just can't imagine my life without them at all either. I would be incomplete. And the world would be missing out on a wonderful addition.

Very well said!


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Verity* 
If I had really thought it through rationally, I doubt I would have had a third child.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think this poster is meaning if they were thinking it through rationally before they were pregnant. I don't think they were meaning terminating the pregnancy. I could be off on my assessment though.


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## party_of_seven (May 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
But isn't there a difference between saying "if you behave yourself, work hard and get good grades, we will help you pay for college" and just handing over $60,000? It seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water.


I think that its the equivalent of saying "if you behave you can have a cookie" and just sets your relationship with your child up for all sorts of power struggles......at precisely a time when your child will be wanting all the power he/she can get.

FWIW, my sister that I mentioned in my previous post had her spending monitored and was supposed to be making good grades etc. However it created so many problems between her and our parents that they eventually turned it all over to her and allowed her to make her own mistakes.

I just feel that giving the child the responsibility and power to earn their college eduaction will teach them valuable lessons. I will bet there all along the way.....to help when I'm needed with things like food and living expenses but ultimately the responsibility is theirs.


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## party_of_seven (May 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
See I am totally anti-Maltheusian and have extreme faith in human capacity of ultimate self-interest which powers tremendous innovations.

While yes, each person has a significant footprint in terms of environmental resources, humanity, so far, has actually managed to create more than we destroy. The most important resource any country, any company, or any community has is its people - current and future generations. Without people, we have nothing.

We have to do better, no doubt. But if you look at where we are, technologically, medically, ethically, politically, and physically, compared to 1000 years ago, or even 100 years ago, we are so much healthier, richer, more politically free, more educated, etc. etc. and who made this happen? People. We did. And we have to keep going.

There are huge chunks of the population left out of this growth. We have to keep going in ways that are loads more sustainable and respectful of this planet. But the only way OUT of this mess is clever thinking and lots of human ingenuity. And for that, we need more people. Smart, politically conscious, hardworking, motivated people.

My 2 cents.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *party_of_six* 
I just feel that giving the child the responsibility and power to earn their college eduaction will teach them valuable lessons. I will bet there all along the way.....to help when I'm needed with things like food and living expenses but ultimately the responsibility is theirs.

Yeah, but if you are helping with living expenses then you *are* helping to pay for college. That's a big portion of the bill. My parents let me live at home, but then were unable to treat me like an adult - unable to transition into the new role with me in the house - so I ended up moving out. I'd have a ton less debt if it would have worked out me living at home. But I'd just say to anyone considering that an option - you really have to be able to cut the apron strings. Don't think your kid is going to go to class all day with students who are free to do whatever they want, and then come home and be willing to be told what they are going to do and when.

How will you give them the power to earn their college education? I know someone mentioned giving them time to work during their high school years as homeschoolers to save up. I think that's a fine idea.


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## Kleine Hexe (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think this poster is meaning if they were thinking it through rationally before they were pregnant. I don't think they were meaning terminating the pregnancy. I could be off on my assessment though.


Who said anything about abortion? I don't think anyone assumed she was talking about terminating her third pg.

I think it's just rare for someone to say something like they proably wouldn't/shouldn't have had another child when thinking back on the decision. At least it's rare to hear it out loud....who knows what we all think in our heads at times.


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## Mamamazing (Aug 16, 2006)

I want to be able to help my children with college expenses but I also want them to own their own education. Any student loans will be in their name, but I want to kick in and help them as much as I can.

I think, "afford," is a fine line, I want my children to have enriching activities, but I agree that many children are also oveer scheduled and have a keen sense of privilege that disturbs me. I would not pay one dime to a college student with poor grades, for example.

I think the notion that people should only have two children is harsh, some only have one, some want a large family. In an industrialized nation that gives women choice and educational opportunities, the population tends to be below replacement level, people who have more than two children are contributing to the culture.

Then there is the issue of how an individual couple can handle having several children. Some peopl can handle more stress associated with children better than others, some people space their children further apart which helps the parents cope.

There is a lot that goes into parenting and shoulds, affords, and external standards are too simplistic.


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## party_of_seven (May 10, 2004)

IMO there is a pretty big difference between playing a support role and being completely in control of financing a child's education.

"How will you give them the power to earn their college education? I know someone mentioned giving them time to work during their high school years as homeschoolers to save up. I think that's a fine idea."

Yes, my children will work for it. They will save for it. They will take out loans if necessary. They will do their detective work and apply for grants and study hard to apply for scholarships.

I'm not saying that this is the only way to do this type of thing. Its just what our family feels comfortable with. I KNOW that there are many many children out there who would still work hard and appreciate every penny they were ever given if their parents paid for their college education. BUT.....in our increasingly consumeristic driven society with so much of a sense of entitlement I think that the values of hard work and earning things of importance and value are lost on a lot of people. I feel that the hard work and dedication it takes to make it through college and be sucessful in life is a lesson in and of itself....not a lesson that I want to take away from my children or avoid burdening them with.

That's just how *I* feel about it and how I hope it works for my family.....certainly NOT the only way to go about it.


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

I put myself through college, and intended for my DS to do the same. Then I watched my brother try to pay his way through the same college 7 years after I graduated, and it was next to impossible because tuition went up so much year over year that he simply couldn't keep up with the rising prices. And he DID have scholarships and grants.

This has changed my tune on the whole "paying for college" thing. I want my DS to go to college, and I don't want him to have to struggle. I also need to save for my retirement (which I have been doing for the last several years), so I've put those things at the top of my list in terms of saving.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
Yeah, but if you are helping with living expenses then you *are* helping to pay for college. That's a big portion of the bill.

So true!

Quote:

My parents let me live at home, but then were unable to treat me like an adult - unable to transition into the new role with me in the house - so I ended up moving out. I'd have a ton less debt if it would have worked out me living at home. But I'd just say to anyone considering that an option - you really have to be able to cut the apron strings. Don't think your kid is going to go to class all day with students who are free to do whatever they want, and then come home and be willing to be told what they are going to do and when.
Heck, my girls are only 7 and 2, and I'm sure not telling them "what they are going to do and when." I can't imagine suddenly starting that [email protected] when they're over 18.

I want them to develop _their own_ strong senses of "what they are going to do and when" -- and I sure don't see how they can flourish in this area if I'm planning their lives for them.


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## ap mom (Dec 23, 2006)

Just hopping in to say you've all given me a lot of hope and inspiration! We currently have 1 DC and would love to have a larger family, but we've been worried about finances. After reading your posts, I think I'll spend more time in the frugal living section and talk to DH about starting to TTC in earnest!


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Heck, my girls are only 7 and 2, and I'm sure not telling them "what they are going to do and when." I can't imagine suddenly starting that [email protected] when they're over 18.









You would die over what I was kicked out of the house for! I came home freshman year and needed to write a research paper. My sister had an academic awards banquet at the high school, and I opted to stay home. I was told by my mom that I was going to go. I said I wasn't. She said if you are going to live under my roof, you are going to do what we do. I said "fine" called up some friends and left! Yeah, mom knows she screwed up on that one - though she'll joke about what a brat I was. We have a good relationship. But still - that was ridiculous. I could have saved thousands of dollars if we could have worked that out.

Dh earned big scholarships and his parents paid for a lot - living expenses and some tuition. It was a blessing, but he definately worked for it. And his parents didn't hold it over him like a manipulation tool. The thing with scholarships is there are more avaliable if you go into a more consumer oriented field - dh went into engineering. There is big money in engineering - so big money for scholarships. There's alot less avaliable for a language major! We both had graduate assistanceships that paid for graduate school and had no problem being married the last year and living off our small grad student incomes.


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:

New information from the U.S. Census Bureau reinforces the value of a college education: workers 18 and over with a bachelor's degree earn an average of $51,206 a year, while those with a high school diploma earn $27,915.
Those are very low averages. The average wage in this town is over $52,000 & that was about 3 or 4 years ago so it'd be higher now.

DH has his grade 9 & 1 class in Grade 10, 1 class in Grade 11. He makes $65,000/year, more than his brother who got his Grade 12 & his sister who got her Grade 12 & moved onto a technical college. My 1 brother is a journeyman mechanic & makes $52,000. My other brother has a 3 year computer degree & makes around $60,000. My sister is a RN & makes around $80,000. If I went out & used my education(accounting & management) I'd be making along the same lines as my sister.

I know a few people in the US whose dh's have bachelors or masters & they make more money working in a restaurant or something that has nothing to do with their education.

IMO, people need to stop focusing on making as much money as they possible can & focus on what is really important in life.

We have 3 kids(they're 5, 6 & 8), I am a SAHM/WAHM. We live a comfortable lifestyle & can definitly afford the girls. They are involved in activities. 2 are in Sparks at $90 each, the 3rd is in Guides & it's $45 because we have 3 in the association. Swimming lessons are $40 each. Basketball is $80 for 2 of them and $120 I think for the 3rd. they go to public school, supplies are about $20 each & then there's the $20 school fee for 2 of them(3rd will be next year in Grade 1). School pictures are $88 for 2. This year the price won't be any different as the 3rd kid is free. They get clothes at their birthdays & christmas, unless they've gone through a major growth spurt.lol Clothes are handed down & a friend of mine gives me her granddd's outgrown clothes. My oldest is saving her $ right now to buy herself some more clothes for school in the fall. We have retirement savings(and dh's company matches it), we have savings & we put some into the girls savings accounts too. We are NOT paying for their education. We have a nice car, a cruddy house but it's almost paid off(lol). Our debt is very close to being paid off right now.

Dh is possibly getting a new job that will be a $10,000/year increase in pay to start off. If he does & he likes it then in a year we'll be moving away to our hometown areas. There things are cheaper to purchase & we'll either move into an almost brand new house(for the same price as buying a 1970's house here), or move to an acreage & have a place built in a couple of years.

Quote:

1) I'm not American - I'm Canadian, so you weren't specifically talking about me or mine.. However, if someone had been willing to pay 100% of my tuition, books and living expenses while I pursued a degree, that wouldn't even have come close to making college tempting to me. I don't know what factors come into play with other people's decisions, but I certainly hope nobody ever includes me in statements about the expense being why people don't get a post-secondary education.

2) I'm not "worried" about college expenses, because I don't see them as my responsibility. If any of my kids want to pursue a post-secondary education, I'll help to the extent that I reasonably can, but I don't see it as my responsibility. I also don't want them thinking that I expect them to attend university or that it's some kind of requirement.

3) I'm not trying to ensure that my children make any particular salary when they're on their own. I could pay for them to go through university, and have them chuck it all to become a "starving artist". I want them to find the path that works for them, not for me. I've known plenty of people who make a whole lot more money than I ever have (or ever will, in all likelihood), and most of them were no happier, and in many cases less happy, than me. I'd be terribly afraid of what message my children would get if I stayed on the "we're taking money from now so that you will attend university and make big bucks when you complete your degree" theme. I don't want my kids to starve...but it's not up to me to ensure that they make a certain dollar value, either.
I agree with all of this. As I mentioned above we are NOT paying for our kids education. IF we are still living here they can stay at home while in college. If not, I'd talk to my siblings & see if they can move in there(and pay some rent). Or we'd buy a place in the city & they can all stay there. We have enough relatives around in all the major cities that them living with one of them shouldn't be an issue & it'll keep their costs down. For their tuition & books, they can save money if they're working as teens, work when they're not in school, get scholorships/bursaries, get a student loan.

AFTER they are done college, then I'd have no problem helping them pay thier loans off but I won't pay it before.

The savings accounts we have for them they cannot have until they're 25. They can use that money for whatever they want, as long as they are responsible about it. They can use it to travel, pay down their education, put into retirement, buy a house, get married, etc.

There is nothing wrong with going to a lower-level college than going to the highest most sought after one. When I went to college I could have gone to the University where my sister did. It would have been 5 years, instead I didn't want to go to school for 5 more years & I did not want to have as much student loan debt as she had. We ended up graduating the same year, her with her RN degree & me with my 2 diplomas. Her with around $100,000 of debt, me with $24,000. 9 years later, mine is paid off hers isn't. Now the college I went to had degree programs on the same level as the University ones. It is also really easy to take your first 1-2 years of University here & then transfer to the University in the city for the last 1-2 years, but come out with alot less debt.

Quote:

My parents let me live at home, but then were unable to treat me like an adult - unable to transition into the new role with me in the house - so I ended up moving out. I'd have a ton less debt if it would have worked out me living at home. But I'd just say to anyone considering that an option - you really have to be able to cut the apron strings. Don't think your kid is going to go to class all day with students who are free to do whatever they want, and then come home and be willing to be told what they are going to do and when.
My Aunt did that with one of my cousins(not her kid) who lived with her during University. She was 21 & my aunt gave her a curfew, she never had one in high school. My cousin didn't live there long.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CarrieMF* 
Those are very low averages. The average wage in this town is over $52,000 & that was about 3 or 4 years ago so it'd be higher now.

But aren't you in Canada? The average is that low in the US - that was the US census information, and it is dead on for the cities I have lived in. I agree with you on life not being all about money - but I know alot of struggling people without college degrees; I wouldn't downplay its usefulness.


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
We make $50-60k a year depending on dh's commission and how many childcare clients I have. Both of us dropped out of high school. He never went to college. I have a whopping semester of higher education.

Yeah, my DH makes $75,000/year without a day of college.

Not every child will want to go to college. And if they do, they can make it happen with financial aid.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kleine Hexe* 
Who said anything about abortion? I don't think anyone assumed she was talking about terminating her third pg.

Sorry, my bad. This post sounded like the person thought they meant termination.

Quote:

I just can not imagine having chose to NOT have any of my children. They are all so unique and special. Just thinking about having made a choice to not have any one of them makes me sad. I would do anything necessary to have my children. I love them so very much and they could never be replaced with another child. I just can't imagine my life without them at all either. I would be incomplete. And the world would be missing out on a wonderful addition.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

No, I never meant termination. But the thought of making any choice that would have prevented me from having a single one of my children (whether termination or birth control to prevent) just makes me sad.

I feel that children are a blessing and that God has sent each and every single one to me for a reason. I would never be able to live with myself if I had chosen to reject a child that He intended for me to have.

So I know that God will provide. I have faith. Many people do not understand that faith, and most just think it is irresponsible (as I have been told many times), but it is my life and the lives of my children that matter.

That is why 'finances' will never influence our number of children. I can afford my children and will do what I must for them, even if others do not believe I am providing adequately. I provide the basics for my children, food, shelter, and clothing. And though we are considered 'poor' my children have so many more toys and treasures and special things that other children around the world do not have. If I can not afford to pay for singing lessons and clubs, I am more than capable of making up for it with experiences and special times that many others do not have. Plus, there are always alternatives for such as that.

Example, I could not afford to continue my daughter's karate lessons after we moved, however we were able to come up with enough to send her to New Zealand and Australia for an entire month one year and Peru the next year.

We just do what we need to do and us not being able to afford cable has not hurt my children at all, we just go to the free library more often and they read.

As so many have said, 'Afford' is such a subjective term. And can change at any given moment, but then so can the definition you use, too.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty* 
No, I never meant termination. But the thought of making any choice that would have prevented me from having a single one of my children (whether termination or birth control to prevent) just makes me sad.

I feel that children are a blessing and that God has sent each and every single one to me for a reason. I would never be able to live with myself if I had chosen to reject a child that He intended for me to have.

*So I know that God will provide*. I have faith. Many people do not understand that faith, and most just think it is irresponsible (as I have been told many times), but it is my life and the lives of my children that matter.

That is why 'finances' will never influence our number of children. I can afford my children and will do what I must for them, even if others do not believe I am providing adequately. I provide the basics for my children, food, shelter, and clothing. And though we are considered 'poor' my children have so many more toys and treasures and special things that other children around the world do not have. If I can not afford to pay for singing lessons and clubs, I am more than capable of making up for it with experiences and special times that many others do not have. Plus, there are always alternatives for such as that.

Example, I could not afford to continue my daughter's karate lessons after we moved, however we were able to come up with enough to send her to New Zealand and Australia for an entire month one year and Peru the next year.

We just do what we need to do and us not being able to afford cable has not hurt my children at all, we just go to the free library more often and they read.

As so many have said, 'Afford' is such a subjective term. And can change at any given moment, but then so can the definition you use, too.











Sorry I misread what you put. I agree with everything you said especially the part I bolded.


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## La llorona (Mar 2, 2004)

To offer another perspective to this thread....
Just came back from northern Portugal, an idyllic place. It's rural, the people are very laid back, food is cheap and good, great for planting crops, fruit tress etc.
The only thing missing were children, which is a shame because IMO it would be such an ideal place to raise a family (delinquency is extremely low, overall a very safe country) and the attitude toward children is very loving.
The thing is that it has a large aging population and young people either emigrate or choose not to have kids, Therefore they have been closing schools left and right.
While it's valid to be concerned about overpopulation, several european countries worry about the opposite, because having no children means having no future.


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## mimid (Dec 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *party_of_six* 
IMO there is a pretty big difference between playing a support role and being completely in control of financing a child's education.

"How will you give them the power to earn their college education? I know someone mentioned giving them time to work during their high school years as homeschoolers to save up. I think that's a fine idea."

Yes, my children will work for it. They will save for it. They will take out loans if necessary. They will do their detective work and apply for grants and study hard to apply for scholarships.

That's how my dad did it, my step-father did it, my dh did it as well as many friends. I took a different path as college wasn't for me. There was a lot of pressure put on me by my parents to go, though and it caused some serious issues. I plan on letting my children find their own paths and to help as much as I can, but they have to do what is right for them. Not what is right for me or for "society".


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## rayo de sol (Sep 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *becoming* 
Yeah, my DH makes $75,000/year without a day of college.

That's the difference between the *average* American, which is what the U.S. census figures reflect, and an anecdotal example such as your lucky DH. He does not represent the average earning potential of an American with his education level.

Also, keep in mind that as of 2005, women working full time still only earn 77% of what men earn working full time. So, the national average for salaries might sound low because it's counting all those underpaid women out there.


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## rayo de sol (Sep 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CarrieMF* 
IMO, people need to stop focusing on making as much money as they possible can & focus on what is really important in life.

I totally agree with you on this. But isn't the whole point of this thread to discuss how many children are affordable? So, part of that is asking ourselves if we want to help our children grow up to be able to afford to have as many children as _they_ want. For some people this includes helping their children pay for college so that the children will have a better chance of getting a job that will allow them to raise as big a family as their hearts desire.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CarrieMF* 
AFTER they are done college, then I'd have no problem helping them pay thier loans off but I won't pay it before.

This doesn't make much financial sense since if you help _after_ college, you'll end up paying more in the end. Say the interest rate is 7% on the loan, so you'll end up paying 7% more than you would pay in the first place. If you're willing to help, why not just chip in while they are attending college?


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## cdahlgrd (Sep 4, 2002)

I actually agree with CarrieMF about helping kids after they are done with college/school.

I went to college and watched the money flow like water to most of our classmates! New cars, parties, clothes, etc. etc. and then they would flunk semester after semester. Or just skate by.

Then I looked around and saw the older students working AND taking a full courseload or the people from other countries doing 2-3 degrees AT ONCE and finishing in 3 YEARS.

Some of this is how we raise our children and how our culture treats our children (and trains them). But some is just the handouts they constantly get. So yes, I am planning on paying for a large portion of my kids schooling, but not until they are showing me that it is worth their time and my money.

I also don't think everyone needs a 4 year degree. I think a lot of people would do really well with a technical degree or 3 year degree, at least to start with. 4 years seems like an eternity to a kid who isn't a big fan of school to start with.

But back to the main Q: we have decided to have a larger family because that is what we want our family to look and feel like. We make our choices and sacrifices based on our priorities and plans. Part of our plan involves me staying home when the kids are young, but I have worked part time to suppliment and wouldn't be opposed to using some part-time childcare to continue at a later time (when the twins are a bit older, if we don't have another by then).

I was the oldest of 5 and my dh was an only child. I had a wonderful childhood, without much more than the basics. My dh was incredibly lonely and spoiled. Neither of us would wish his childhood on anyone (despite the size of his parent's accounts).


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## purposefulmother (Feb 28, 2007)

Yes, we can afford them. We can afford more, should we be blessed with more. Their college will be paid for; if they choose to work and save as teenagers, we will match funds so that they can buy cars; we take care of all of their needs and some of their wants; we buy them nice clothing, but if they want $70 tommy shirts, they have to save their money for that; we live debt free except for our mortgage and are agressive investors and savers. We don't welcome the government in our lives so we don't invite them in via any sort of assistance from them.


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## christinelin (Aug 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybee* 
At the age of 24, my parents had 3 kids. They lived at poverty level, but we never really knew it as young children. When we were older, my parents were doing better, but things were still tight. But, if things were important to us, my parents figured out how to manage. I got braces, and my parents managed to pay for a flute. I never had private lessons, but I knew the flute was a sacrifice, and I stayed in Band all through high school and really enjoyed it. Through public schools, I was involved in plenty of activities that did not cost very much. My brothers did baseball, soccer, and cub scouts. I did not have a college savings account, except for what I saved myself. But, through financial aid and hard work, I put myself through school with a minimum amount of debt. And I got a lot more out of my college education then those who were there on mommy & daddy's dime, but really only cared about partying. We didn't have a lot, but I sure appreciated what we DID have. I'm more afraid of trying to give my boys all the things I didn't get and having them end up with a sense of entitlement.

If my parents could do it, so can we. We're not raking in the dough, but we've planned and saved, and we're doing all right... .

This is a lovely post.

The question it raised for me (and I don't think there is one right answer for this), is that there are obviously finite limits to the supply of money each of us has, so what are optional expenses? If you could afford more children, but not afford braces or not afford to have them play flute, would those trade-offs be reasonable? I don't think anyone can answer that for someone else, but I think it is worth exploring with your partner so you know what YOUR comfort level is.

My expectations for what I should be able to afford are high -- and I don't think everyone should agree, but it is what my DH and I hope to do:

- Pay for reasonable extracurricular activities, including music lessons.
- Pay for braces.
- Pay for an undergraduate degree (although we will also expect our kids to work summers to contribute to expenses).

What I don't expect to pay for:
- Cars for my dependent children
- More than basic clothing, toys, etc.

We are financially comfortable, but we also live in a very expensive area and we have three children. DH and I attended expensive private colleges and he attended private graduate school. We would very much like to make those options open to our children, too.

Just FYI, colleges will count your income in financial aid applications for your children, so even if you don't intend to pay, colleges will assume you will anyway. It's a poor system, IMHO, but it is the way it is.


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## lil_stinkyfeet (Nov 12, 2006)

I have 3 children and the short answer is no we can't afford them









But I wouldn't trade them for anything!


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## snuggly mama (Mar 29, 2004)

What if you planned, and saved, and were absolutely sure you could afford to add another child . . . and then circumstances changed? Not asking this to be snarky, just wondering what people think about it. We were in a good, stable position financially-speaking when we decided to conceive baby#3. I was making a nice living as a home childcare provider, and dh was moving up the ranks at work and getting regular increases in pay. We had enough money for the kids to attend activities, go on vacations, etc.

Baby#3 was born with special needs -- definitely not what we had planned. I had to quit my job, and was only recently able to start working again, part-time. Dh lost his job and is working for less than he made before. We had to sell our low-mortgage house because it didn't work for dd's needs, and pay much more now (and may need to move yet again very soon). We had no debt other than student loans before. Now we have cc debt that keeps me up at night. We still manage to pay for some of the kids activities (dance, sports, etc.), but paying for college is pretty much out of the question. Dd1 is 12, and we've talked a lot with her lately about the kinds of support we *can* offer. We'll give any financial support we are able, but it won't be much.

The point here is that we were able to afford three children when we planned for them. Life, however, does not always work according to plan.


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## Sonnenwende (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cdahlgrd* 
My dh was incredibly lonely and spoiled. Neither of us would wish his childhood on anyone (despite the size of his parent's accounts).

However, his experiences seem to be based on the fact that his parents were poor parents, not that he was an only. If they had taken the time to realize he had felt isolated, they could have done any number of things to remedy that. They could have involved him more in sports, the arts, in scouting, in music, etc, etc. They had the money to do so, correct? The choices for social interaction were limitless. They certainly didn't need to have another child they apparently didn't want, rather they just should have paid more attention to the one they had.


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