# "Bedtime for Frances:" explaining spanking???



## stefka (May 27, 2005)

Ugh! We checked out "Bedtime for Frances" at the library last week. I didn't read it through first, and remembered it as a very sweet story about a muskrat (?) that didn't want to go to bed. Sweet except that she finally falls asleep because the wind sounds like the spanking she'll get if she doesn't.

Luckily, my 3 year old can't read yet, and I caught it and just left it out, and asked DH to do the same. But it got me thinking. DS has no idea what spanking is, has never even heard the word to my knowledge. We live in a part of the country where it's not a super-common discipline "strategy." But at some point, in reading or IRL, he'll encounter this. How on earth will I explain, especially if it's regarding a friend's family? There is not one ounce of my being the understands spanking. I couldn't for a second act like it was an acceptable reaction to anything. On the other hand, I would never, ever, want to villify another parent who I know loves and cares for their child.

I'm sure many of you have had to explain this to (probably older) children. What did you say???


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

I said, "some parents choose to spank but we don't do that in our family".

I chose to impart the information without judgment since my daughter is still young and has peers who are spanked. I figure that in time she will know my strong feelings on the subject but for now I have kept it simple.


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## misseks (Jan 12, 2005)

Oh, my dd is named Frances but I couldn't get that book because of that.

We also have this cute little book called Big or Little and one of the pages says, When my mom yells at me for not finding my other sock again, that means I'm little.

So my oldest is almost 3, but we are very careful about yelling in our house, because I have a short fuse, it is important to teach her (and me!) that yelling is for emergencies, or yelling for fun at the park. So I don't like that page of the book.

Lots of stories that were okay for me, I find I really don't approve of them for my own kids. I am such a prude!


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## stefka (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads* 
I said, "some parents choose to spank but we don't do that in our family".

I chose to impart the information without judgment since my daughter is still young and has peers who are spanked. I figure that in time she will know my strong feelings on the subject but for now I have kept it simple.

I agree with this response for the reasons you state, but... I anticipate the next question being, "why do some parents choose to hit their kids?" And I say ????? Realistically I'm not likely to get this exact question from my 3 year old, but I could see it in a year or two (which is when the issue might come up, since he'd be school aged and exposed to a larger variety of kids and families).


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## Thalia the Muse (Jun 22, 2006)

We've read Frances, Little House, and other books with spanking. I just explained that people used to think that was the best way to help children learn how to behave, but that we know more now and I don't think it's nice or helpful to spank kids, so we don't spank DD. She didn't seem too phased about it.

Quote:

I anticipate the next question being, "why do some parents choose to hit their kids?" And I say ?????
I guess my answer to that is "They are trying to be the best parents they can, and they've been taught that spanking will help their kids learn to do the right thing. I don't think that's right, but they love their kids just like we love you and they're doing what they think is best."

I think Frances generally has terrific parents and I love those books.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

There are alot of things in books that we don't "do" anymore. Just explain as PP did. To keep kids from these wonderful books because you can't explain that things used to be different is really sad to me!


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## WaturMama (Oct 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thalia the Muse* 
We've read Frances, Little House, and other books with spanking. I just explained that people used to think that was the best way to help children learn how to behave, but that we know more now and I don't think it's nice or helpful to spank kids, so we don't spank DD. She didn't seem too phased about it.

I like that explanation. I might use the words, "I don't like spanking because..." since ds has been using "I like" and "I don't like" a lot lately himself.

And, for the record, I think Frances and family are badgers.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stefka* 
I agree with this response for the reasons you state, but... I anticipate the next question being, "why do some parents choose to hit their kids?" And I say ????? Realistically I'm not likely to get this exact question from my 3 year old, but I could see it in a year or two (which is when the issue might come up, since he'd be school aged and exposed to a larger variety of kids and families).

To that I would say "because they think that it is a good way to discipline".

I really think the best lessons our children will learn are the ones that they formulate for themselves. I can already see that my DD at age 7 is completely getting it and I have given no judgment to her, she has formulated her own opinion. I just give her the facts.


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## Montessorimom8 (Mar 6, 2006)

I was in a Dr's office with ds when some lady hit her ds in the face because he threw a lego.







Ds was 4 at the time and I stroked his arm and said, "I will NEVER hit you like that" loud enough for the b*tch to hear. To me that reassures him that it IS wrong but he doesn't have to worry that I would ever do that to him even if he was 'naughty'.


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## Naless (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads* 
To that I would say "because they think that it is a good way to discipline".

I really think the best lessons our children will learn are the ones that they formulate for themselves. I can already see that my DD at age 7 is completely getting it and I have given no judgment to her, she has formulated her own opinion. I just give her the facts.

this is a great answer

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Montessorimom8* 
I was in a Dr's office with ds when some lady hit her ds in the face because he threw a lego.







Ds was 4 at the time and I stroked his arm and said, "I will NEVER hit you like that" loud enough for the b*tch to hear. To me that reassures him that it IS wrong but he doesn't have to worry that I would ever do that to him even if he was 'naughty'.

This is not spanking this is abuse. I feel that people who don't believe in spanking put all physical interactions under one banner. This is horrible and I would never classify this as spanking.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads* 
I said, "some parents choose to spank but we don't do that in our family".

I chose to impart the information without judgment since my daughter is still young and has peers who are spanked. I figure that in time she will know my strong feelings on the subject but for now I have kept it simple.

another great response

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thalia the Muse* 
We've read Frances, Little House, and other books with spanking. I just explained that people used to think that was the best way to help children learn how to behave, but that we know more now and I don't think it's nice or helpful to spank kids, so we don't spank DD. She didn't seem too phased about it.

*I guess my answer to that is "They are trying to be the best parents they can, and they've been taught that spanking will help their kids learn to do the right thing. I don't think that's right, but they love their kids just like we love you and they're doing what they think is best."*

I think Frances generally has terrific parents and I love those books.


To say that "people used to think" and "now we know now more" implies IMO that people who spank aren't educated or don't know what you do instead of letting your child know that there are people who have the same information you have and they think differently.

The bold writing I think is the best answer so far


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## minkajane (Jun 5, 2005)

Naless, I can see you are new here. Spanking is not encouraged or condoned at MDC. Pro-spanking posts are not allowed. Please see the links at the top of the Gentle Discipline forum for links on ways of disciplining children that do not involve hitting them.


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## tatermom (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thalia the Muse* 
We've read Frances, Little House, and other books with spanking. I just explained that people used to think that was the best way to help children learn how to behave, but that we know more now and I don't think it's nice or helpful to spank kids, so we don't spank DD. She didn't seem too phased about it.

I guess my answer to that is "They are trying to be the best parents they can, and they've been taught that spanking will help their kids learn to do the right thing. I don't think that's right, but they love their kids just like we love you and they're doing what they think is best."

I think Frances generally has terrific parents and I love those books.


Thank you!







I think this is such a great way to address the issues in those books that I don't agree with (I just reread the first Little House book a few months ago with an eye to reading it to my DS next year and was shocked to read about the whippings/spankings (must have conveniently forgotten that since last I read it!)). I've been wondering how to address this because there are so many classic books out there and it would be such a shame to avoid them all (or have to worry about how to change them or cut out parts) because of a few inappropriate topics. Now I think I will just read the books as they are and explain when needed-- I love the line you used above!

Naless, I hope you get a chance to read some of the links at the top of the GD forum-- there's lots of great info about gentle discipline here, and I'm constantly coming back to it as a reference. Welcome to MDC!


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## stefka (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WaturMama* 

And, for the record, I think Frances and family are badgers.

Ah, thanks. I knew they probably weren't actually muskrats.









And thanks everyone for your thoughtful responses. I am still really struggling with this (still hypothetically at this point, thank goodness). I teach child development courses, and I really work with my students to develop an open, non-judgmental stance toward the diverse ways that parents care for, nurture, and discipline children. And I can see using the responses given here to explain many choices that may not be my own, but which are the parenting practices of others.

But I think I'm realizing that I really am very, very judgmental about spanking. I could no more see myself responding with "that's the way some people choose to discipline" than I could say "that's the way some people show that they are angry" if my child saw someone get punched in the eye. These are NOT the same thing, I know, but in both cases I feel that they are simply and absolutely wrong, not one of an array of choices that different people make.

I'll also state for the record, lest my last statement be seen as making spanking and punching in the face analogous, that I do believe most parents who spank, like most parents who do anything, love and care about their children. I just can't condone the practice as acceptable because of culture, upbringing, or anything else.

Sigh... I need to keep thinking about this, both for my child and professionally. Thanks again for the input!


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## Naless (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *minkajane* 
Naless, I can see you are new here. Spanking is not encouraged or condoned at MDC. Pro-spanking posts are not allowed. Please see the links at the top of the Gentle Discipline forum for links on ways of disciplining children that do not involve hitting them.

I was not trying to encorage spanking or to make my post a pro-spanking post my intent was only to address the OP as to how to explain spanking to your child when you are a non spanking family


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

hi Naless..Welcome to MDC. Just a heads up, you will be asked to edit your post. MDC does not advocate anyone spanking it is against the UA.

I do hope you will stay and look around at all the different ways to discpline and hopefully decide that spanking is not some thing you'd like to continue either.

and FTR..I did not know Frances' parents spanked. Her mom seems so gentle.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Naless* 

This is not spanking this is abuse.

I really don't differentiate between the two because wrong is wrong.


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## Thalia the Muse (Jun 22, 2006)

No one actually gets spanked in the Frances books. in Bedtime for Frances, her father just asks if she wants a spanking after she gets up for the gazillionth time -- it's not presented as terribly scary, it's kind of humorous. I don't think any of the other books mention it at all.


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## Mindi22 (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hipumpkins* 
hi Naless..Welcome to MDC. Just a heads up, you will be asked to edit your post. MDC does not advocate anyone spanking it is against the UA.

Where did she advocate spanking??? She just said that there is a difference between spanking and abuse. And while both may be seen by many people as wrong, surely one can at least recognize that spanking a child's bum because they "think it is a good way to discipline" (as a pp put it) is a far cry from hitting a child.

Just my 2 cents. I'll go back to lurking now.
Mindi


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## mzfern (Nov 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mindi22* 
Where did she advocate spanking??? She just said that there is a difference between spanking and abuse. And while both may be seen by many people as wrong, surely one can at least recognize that spanking a child's bum because they "think it is a good way to discipline" (as a pp put it) is a far cry from hitting a child.

Just my 2 cents. I'll go back to lurking now.
Mindi

I believe she edited her post.


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)




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