# TO give up your child............



## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

Some of you may remember my post of a few days ago about wether its better to move for the sake of my familiy as a whole or stay to make life more convenient for my daughters father.

It seemed like the majority said I should stay. That having her dad within a few miles is more important that being financially secure with my family.

As I've been looking at this situation, though, I'm torn with another issue and would love more input, even the "hard a$$" input.









So, the reality is that *if* we stay in this town, we will never buy a home, at least not while my daughter is living with us. More than likely, we'll be stuck in this apartment, a medium ish sized two bedroom, for the next two or three years at least. Also, if we stay, its unlikely my husband will be able to be promoted (his company requires relocation to be promoted........stupid, I know). He switched to this company last year and the goal was promotion. Not only would DH be pretty unhappy, but we would not be in a position at any time in the next 5 years to do anything but live paycheck to paycheck. I would not be able to work because I couldn't justify working and the cost for day care for my son........we'd basically break even.

If we moved about two hours away, my husband would stay in his position but get paid a bit more and the cost of livng would be less. We would be in a position to pay off debt and live in a nicer environment. If we move, and things got really tight, my retired father and my step sister would be availible to babysit for free at any time.

Here's where I'm torn: I believe that my daughters father is ultimately trying to get my daughter the *Majority* of the time, namely during the week, and have us get her on weekends if we move. I am very reluctant to give up majority parenting time because he's tried to use that for basic money reasons in the past. And, to be brutally selfish and honest.....it would KILL me to not have her with me that much.

BUT! At her dads house, my daughter really has SIGNIFICANTLY less rules. Her dad tends to believe that he doesn't want to rock the boat with her as to avoid any confrontation. SO, his house is more "fun", not to mention there isn't the stress of a new baby there. She's basically the boss of the house, doesn't have to do many chores, doesn't have as many rules, and gets all the attention. Here, I'm stricter with her and not only did she have to adjust to my getting married and sharing me with DH but now there is a baby.

We had to go to court last week for mediation so I had to try to explain some of this to her. We had a good talk and she said that she'd like to spend *more* time with daddy.

While it breaks my heart, I am fairly certain it's because of her life there being so much "easier".

So as this issue gets closer to court, I'm left to wonder........do I let her go?

Honestly, I've always looked down on moms who don't have primary custody. Call my head old fashioned I guess but I always wonder what the heck she did to get her kids taken away. Now I am realizing that maybe it just worked out that way.

Again, in a purely selfish vein, I would feel like a failure as a mom if I let her go with him. I'd also probably sink further into depression at losing her so much. I wanted my children to be close and grow up together as much as possible and I personally feel that being in a more "normal" stable family is better for her than being with just her bachelor dad.

But she obviously is having a better time over there. I worry because later as she grows up, I'm scared it would mean I'd just end up seeing her less and less ....... OR that she'd decide she wants to be with me and have to move during school and lose friends.

How much do you listen to a 5 year old in terms of this choice? And honestly how would YOU mamas REALLY look at me if I were to move north, leaving my daughter in primary custody of her dad? What problems could you forsee 3 years down the road? 5 years? 10 years?

Ultimately I get very upset at the thought of all that money going to attorneys and would like to try to figure something out before it goes to court.















:


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## Moon (Nov 25, 2001)

Back the truck up, Mama. No matter who says what about the importance of your daughter being able to see her father, no one, NO one, could have imagined that this would be a better option.

Your daughter is 5. She is not capable of making good choices about who should raise her. She needs YOU, the person who has been with her from the very beginning.

Don't let a bunch of people who are not walking in your shoes tell you that you should stay in a negative situation because it's easier for the man who opted not to raise her. Yes, kids need their daddies, but they also need their mommies, and warm, loving, happy homes. Extended families and being safer are huge bonuses.

Take your family, do what's best for them in terms of living conditions, make the arrangements that are necessary for your daughter and ex to see each other, but do NOT, do NOT, do you hear me, do NOT even think that giving your daughter to your ex is the way to go.

If I were there I'd shake you. And then hug you. Don't do it. Don't even THINK about it.


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## ObsessiveAndrea (Aug 14, 2003)

I think if you really look at it from the stand point of what is best for your daughter you will come to a descision. Don't try deluding yourself, be completely honest even if it means going against yourself. I see you in a very bad position and I think moving would be good for your family as a whole you just need to decide what would be best for your daughter in regards to leaving her with her father or taking her with you.
Although people are saying you need to stay for her would you be sacrificing your current husband and child possibley be putting yourself in a position to get another divorce? THis wouldn't be good for either child. In my opinion, if your current husband treats your daughter with love and respect (like he would his blood child) then your daughter would be better of in a happy 2 parent home. JMO


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## SamuraiEarthMama (Dec 3, 2002)

(apparently i was one of the minority...)

based on advice from my own mother (grrr!), my ex sued me for primary custody of our three kids. granted, they were 9, 12 and 15 at the time... but my gut feeling was that he had walked out on them (and me) four years before that, and he wasn't going to magically turn into a better parent just because he saw them more.

he wanted to put them into public school (where they'd NEVER been). i sat down with each kid and outlined what i thought was best... and then LISTENED to each kid, to hear what they felt was best for themselves.

even the oldest, who had already been living with his dad for a year, chose to live with me fulltime if i moved out of the area. so, based on my gut feeling, and on their desires, that's what i fought for. it took lawyers and consultants and psychologists (all costing piles of money that i much rather would have spent flying the kids back each month to see their dad!), but it was WORTH IT. i've won primary physical custody, and i think the kids are much happier with me, even though we are so far from their hometown.

now, if your daughter doesn't feel strongly about living with you, you've got to listen to that at some level (of course, a five-year-old will always choose ice cream over broccoli... ). but if she's truly comfortable with her dad, and you think the dad would take good care of her, and really your only problem with letting her go is that it would hurt YOU... then maybe you need to consider this option.

something i tell my kids is that nothing is written in stone... if any of them decides at any time that living with their father would be a good idea, i would support them in that decision. so you might try things on a trial basis... once you get past the initial wrenching weeks of missing her, once you see her happy in a situation, you might find more peace with it. on the other hand, if things just aren't working out, you'll know at least you tried and now can work towards another solution.

good luck, mama!

katje


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## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

Moon-
I may not have the option. My daughers dad can afford a pricey attorney...he did it last time and I had nothing. I may not be able to afford an attorney this time around, so if he gets one and I don't, I may be stuck with my options being stay and be poor or move without my child. So thats why I'm torn. I agree about her being with me being best, especially considering that I have been with her her entire life and he hasn't......but I also know the courts don't weigh that too much. *sigh*

Andrea-
Thats why I ask.........I go back and forth on whats best. My biggest concerns with her dad are that he isn't as in tune with her as I am, and thats led to problems before, namely he isnt an emotional guy and shes a VERY emotional girl, and he isn't very in tune with her health.......she's been sick a few times and he hasn't even noticed or thought it was as bad as it was. If I take her, I know that *initially* she'd be sad. If she stayed, I know she'd also be sad because she wants to be around her brother. My whole issue with everything has been I want to make her life happy and easy if I have the possibility to........right now, she'd be happier, I think, visiting me but spending more time with daddy. I don't know if thats really best though......I honestly am really confused about it. I don't want to make her unhappy and I don't want to make her chose. And I'd feel terrible initially if I went against her wishes, even though she is just 5.

Samurai-
So much of the situation is kind of.......equal on both sides. Thats why I'm torn. She'd be happier in the short term if I stayed and nothing much changed. I don't know if thats really best for her OR my son. I don't want my son to suffer because of my daughters dad, either. I want to provide better things for my kids but that may mean letting her stay here and only seeing her on weekends. Then again..........I think that being the person she is, she is more in touch with me and I think she'd tire of living with daddy in the long term.

Ergh.


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## Moon (Nov 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anothermama*
Moon-
I may not have the option......I agree about her being with me being best, especially considering that I have been with her her entire life and he hasn't......but I also know the courts don't weigh that too much. *sigh*

And I'd feel terrible initially if I went against her wishes, even though she is just 5.

Ergh.


Would you qualify for legal aid? It's better than nothing. And, you never know, you said he was strapped for cash having recently bought the new duplex, maybe he doesn't want to get into a war over it either. But either way, it's not there yet. One battle at a time.

And I'm all for respecting kids' wishes and thoughts, but I'm sorry, at 5, your daughter does not have the maturity to understand all of the implications of choosing where she's going to live.

I'm so sorry you're going through this but no. NO. NO. Keep your child where she belongs, with you.


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## China white (Mar 29, 2004)

Your daughter is having fun at her daddy's house right now because she is essencially 'visiting'. He doesn't make her do chores, have many rules, or require much of her. I'm betting if she were to live there full-time, that would change. Then what? If she said to you,"I don't want to live with daddy anymore, I want to live with you" would you be able to take her back, and stay in your new home? What I mean is, would he let you take her 2 hours away?
I tend to agree with the poster who said 5 is too young too decide what's best for her. Her opinion is important, certainly, but the decision has to be _yours_, not hers.
*My* husband is not good about things like remembering doctor appts, dentist appts, buying clothes that fit her, making sure the kids are up in time for school, feeding them healthy, taking care of them when they're up all night with a fever - you get the picture. What would her father be like in these regards? Would she be exisisting on McDonald's?
Would he be AP? Would he respect the choices you've made and continue raising her in the same manner?
Mama, you are between a rock and a hard spot (obviously!) and I really have no advice for you. This is one of the hardest decisions you'll ever have to make, so please don't rush into it. There is just so much to think about, so much at stake. My heart tells me that a child needs their mother, but then again it's not me living in your situation, so it's easier for me to say.
Something else jumped out at me in your post. You said that your depression would probably get worse. This is *so* true, and you need to take this into considersation.It is hard to parent effectively under the clould of PPD. Your son *also* needs you to be the best parent you can be.
Let us know what you decide - I will be thinking of you.


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## andreac (Jul 13, 2003)

I read your other thread, but didn't post because others said pretty much what I was going to say but here goes:

I think you should move and take your daughter with you. I think that it's easy for her dad to be lax about things when he's not the one with all the responsibility and that lax-ness would either change if he had her full time or would lead to problems if continued. I also think the fact that he only wants to be the "fun" parent is very disrespectful of you. As a PP said, what kid wouldn't choose ice cream over vegetable, that doesn't mean that it would be good for them to eat ice cream for breakfast lunch and dinner (although that sounds pretty good to me







) My parents always made it a point to collaborate on rules so that things wouldn't be confusing when we went from house to house and to talk to each other when making decision that one wasn't sure the other would agree with.

From your post, it seems to me that he wants your daughter full time, not because it would be best for her, but because it would be better for him and that's not a good basis for a custody decision. Also the fact that many of these decision seem to come down to money for him doesn't really impress me either. Also, if I remember correctly, you are a SAHM. Who will be taking care of your daughter if she lives with her father?? I don't see how it would be better for anyone for her to go from a stable 2 parent home with her brother, to living with her father who presumably works full time and as you stated in the original thread, has a pretty active social life.

As far as moving or staying, it seems to me that you entire family is being negatively impacted by staying and that's not fair to anyone. While it is nice that you have been so close to your child's father for so long, that just isn't working anymore and why are you and your husband the only ones who has to make sacrifices? I know it will be tough on your daughter initially, but i'm sure you could work out somethng that will work for everyone.

Sorry if I've rambled to much, but I've got to go, my son just woke up from his nap. I hope things work out for you all!


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

Why does the custody have to change?

I'd make that drive twice a week, no complaints from me, in exchange for the better life you are describing for your family. I would consider it worth it. I'd surrender that amount of time in exchange for the other things you are talking about. If you're not putting your ex out any, I don't see why he'd have any reason to bother you about changing custody. And you can always breech the issue later about whether he'd be willing to do one of those trips, or meet you halfway.


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## QueeTheBean (Aug 6, 2002)

I am sorry you are going through so much turmoil.

OK, this may sound a little harsh, but that's only becuase you can't hear the tone of my voice. I don't mean it harshly at all:

I'd do anything to keep my child with me. If that means staying put for right now, even in a less than ideal situation, do it. You never know what might happen in the future as far as a job or moving. It might seem black and white right now as far as your living situation goes, but all that could change in the blink of an eye--really, it could. But if you let your daughter go, that's a forever decision. Don't do it.

When I was pregnant the first time, I really wanted to quit and stay home with my son, but there was no way to do it and stay in our houe & have insurance. I panicked. At the 11th hour, my DH unexpectedly got a new job that allowed him to work from home. We changed our schedules around & everything worked out great--no day care for DS. SOmething like this could happen for you, as well, some answer out of left field--not a black and white solution.

Keep your girl & find another answer for the rest of your troubles.









Also--what does your DH think about all of this?

Oh--and remember that is may be your wish for your daughter's life to be "Happy and easy", but there is a heck of a lot more to being a mama than that! You are the one who has been guiding her through life to be responsible adult. Being happy & easy at dad's house may be fun, but that's not all she needs. . .


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## MPJJJ (Oct 24, 2003)

Why dont you wait and see if your Dh gets a promotion? So many times things fall through, we are promised things that never happen. If you wait and your Dh does get offered a promotion, you can go to court and say "My DH was offered a promotion. If we take it, we can give her this ________"". The judge would be more likely to listen to your side if you had something more concrete then "My DH will probably be promoted in the next 6 months..."


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## corrie43 (Mar 9, 2003)

You may have read some of my other posts in the past. My daughter does not live with me, she lives with her father. I see her 4 to 5 Weeks out of every year. We live on opposite coasts. I have been judged up and down by everyone who knows me, but I am comfortable with the way it worked out.

She had no input and was 5 when they moved, but it was the best thing for both families. SHe did not like my new husband a whole lot and has and AWESOME step-mom. His family has ALOT more money than mine and provides her with way more experiences than I ever could. SHe just got along better with her father and step mother more than with me and my husband. It just seemed a perfect fit. I could have fought it, but I didn't.

I would not look down upon you if you made the choice to have her stay with him during the week, and I hope no one else here would either. The one thing I reccommend is making sure it is a TEMPORARY agreement, don't sign anything saying it is permanant. If you would like to PM me for more info feel free.

I am only posting here to give my support in whatever decision you make. You should make a list of pros and cons and really think about what is the best decision for your daughter in the long run. In my case it was to live with dad. In your case, only you can make that decision, no one here knows you or her well enough to help you make the decision.

Corrie


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

I couldn't for any reason give up majority custody of my kids. I really couldn't. I'd rather live simply- paycheck to paycheck.
I would ask your baby's father to give you a mommy-daughter day every week or two. It sounds like maybe your DD would really benefit having some extra mommy affirmation. Meaning to just realize she's still the apple of your eye and not being replaced.
I personally would pursue moving IF I could keep custody. You could live a half hour out of where your partner works and he could maybe commute. Then maybe you and your ex could meet or share the driving- one picks up friday the other on sunday. You could also consider homeschooling and do one week with Ex one with you. Or you could consider having her with you the majority of the school year, and he could have her over for longer intervals in the summer. Week or two at a time.
If I couldn't move the 2 hours- I would stay. Personally. Judges tend to favor SAHM and financial security so I think it is likely s/he would rule in your favor. I can't imagine how hard it would be for you to live with her away the majority amount of time.
There's my honest position. While she may need her daddy in her life, she also needs her mommy. ((hugs))


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

At one school here the kids go to school all year but have more longer breaks- check out the schools where you are considering moving- maybe there is one with a similar schedule. It works real good for the split families I know.


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## Jane (May 15, 2002)

Is there any way to delay making this decision for a while?
You got tons on your plate right now.


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## Czen:) (Jul 31, 2002)

I'm a divorced and remarried mom with a 13 year old DD from my first marriage, and two little ones with my DH. The firm rule I have is that my DD never, ever makes decisons about where she lives, how often she see's her dad, or what holidays she spends where.

Its to much of a burden for a child. She wants everyone to be happy and feels she is betraying one of us if she chooses the other. She is very content to have me arrange everything and then just tell her whats going on.

I feel strongly that we should let the kids be kids and us adults should be hammering out the options without their involvement.

My ex's home is also alot funner then ours but as she grows up I see her happier and more relaxed to return home to the rules, nutrition, and everything else. For us dad is fun, but mom is home.


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## MPJJJ (Oct 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Czen*
I'm a divorced and remarried mom with a 13 year old DD from my first marriage, and two little ones with my DH. The firm rule I have is that my DD never, ever makes decisons about where she lives, how often she see's her dad, or what holidays she spends where.

Its to much of a burden for a child. She wants everyone to be happy and feels she is betraying one of us if she chooses the other. She is very content to have me arrange everything and then just tell her whats going on.

I feel strongly that we should let the kids be kids and us adults should be hammering out the options without their involvement.

My ex's home is also alot funner then ours but as she grows up I see her happier and more relaxed to return home to the rules, nutrition, and everything else. For us dad is fun, but mom is home.









thats a great point.


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## Mama J Rock (Apr 2, 2004)

What if you agree to maintain the existing visitation schedule despite the move and as much as it will suck to do it, make the drive. Then after you've been there for a while, say a year, then petition the court to change the visitation schedule as a result of hardship due to her school schedule. By that time the courts would frown more on switching her to her father's house full-time since she will be settled in her school and stable 2 parent home with siblings.

He shouldn't have any initial complaints if his visitation stays the same so maybe he will not raise a fuss and let you go ahead and move. I don't think there's any easy solution, but it would be something to think about.

Good Luck Mama! Hold onto your babe!!!!!


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anothermama*
BUT! At her dads house, my daughter really has SIGNIFICANTLY less rules. Her dad tends to believe that he doesn't want to rock the boat with her as to avoid any confrontation. SO, his house is more "fun", not to mention there isn't the stress of a new baby there. She's basically the boss of the house, doesn't have to do many chores, doesn't have as many rules, and gets all the attention. Here, I'm stricter with her and not only did she have to adjust to my getting married and sharing me with DH but now there is a baby.

Why is this good? Less rules, no one holding her accountable, no one making her responsible....is there something I'm missing here?

Yes, she gets all of the attention. What happens when your ex decides to get remarried? And have other kids? Or is that not a remote possibility?

I think the problem I'm having with these scenarios is that you are taking a photograph of life TODAY and making decisions (or chewing on decisions, you're not really making them yet) but life is fluid and will change. Your DH could lose his job tomorrow (not saying I would want that for you but you know what I mean). Your ex could meet someone and get married. In a few years, the baby will be less demanding of your attention and there will be less "new baby" stress. I think that you really need to consider the big picture and the long road ahead to make the right decision.

Is it possible for you to split the difference and move one hour away so that your DH has to commute an hour to work everyday and your DD is closer to her dad?

I am one to definitely vote to stay where you are and let her be with dad but if the choice is between that and giving her to him for primary custody, then I would have to say that moving is probably the better choice.

But please consider this: what happens if you move and your DH loses his job. Can you be absolutely certain that he would be able to find something comparable in the new location? Please be very sure about this decision and please know that at the end of our lives, we remember the ones we love and our connections to them, not the house we lived in or the yard we played in.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *andreac*
...I think you should move and take your daughter with you....

The OP cannot do that without breaking a legal agreement she entered into. If I'm remembering correctly, neither she nor her ex can move without the other ones permission. Moving without permission of her ex or the court is *not* a good idea.

Let me clarify, I do *not* look down on mothers who do not have primary custody. Good mothers look out for their child's best interest and if that means living with Dad most of the time, then I admire those mothers for recognizing that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anothermama*
...I wanted my children to be close and grow up together as much as possible and I personally feel that being in a more "normal" stable family is better for her than being with just her bachelor dad...

You just answered your own question. You think your daughter is better off with you. Now fight for that! If that means staying put in a crappy apartment for two to three years, then do it. What is two to three years compared to a lifetime of living with the guilt of not doing what you thought was best for your daughter?

It seems like you are really stuck...you want a house, you want your spouse to have better business prospects...which is totally normal and easily understood. But you also want your daughter to stay with you. You need to make a choice, you need to pick a priority. Is your priority going to be getting a house and getting your husband promoted or is it going to be keeping your daughter with you?

Edited to add: I hope I'm not coming across as unsympathic to your situation. It sounds to me like you are stuck between the proverbial rock and hard place. But I am worried about you. You _just_ had a baby, why are you dealing with all of this _right_ now? Would it really be a big deal to put this on the back burner for a year? Or even six months? Who is pushing this issue? Is it your new husband? I see you writing about him being "unhappy" if he doesn't get promoted but will that unhappiness even come remotely close to your unhappiness if you get pushed into leaving your daughter to live with your ex when in your heart you don't believe that is best for her???


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## pilesoflaundry (Dec 9, 2003)

I would try my very best to keep my kids with me if dh and I ever got divorced. Actually no way I would give them to him because of the kind of parent he is, it really depends on how your ex is, would he give her decent meals or would it be take out pizza 3 times a day kwim?

My dh's parents got divorced when he was 12, his mom was moving to Florida and told the kids since they were all in their teens it was their choice. Of course they chose to stay with their dad because they were at the age to not want to move away from high school, friends and part time jobs (his sis was 16, his younger brother 10 or 11). They all turned out with various anger management problems and gambling issues because of their dad's influence. To this day 18 years later is very bitter towards their mom and speaks horridly of her if her name is mentioned in his house, he has one hell of a temper and used to take the boys to the race track with him (it was legal then) and both of them gamble to this day. Their sister isn't as 'screwed' up is the best way to put it because she was busy doing her own thing and wasn't around their dad much. So basically my point is, if you don't think he will be a good parent please don't let her go.







s that is the hardest thing to do, but if I try really hard to imagine myself in your shoes I suggest moving away and keeping your dd with you because it's what's fair and best for the majority of you, your ex is one person, don't make 4 other's be miserable just to try and appease him. Good luck mama!!


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## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

Hi ladies.........thanks for all the honest relies thus far. I am really having to think about some things......

I'd like to clarify, though......
I'm really asking this:
If you ONLY have these two options, which would you chose, how much input would your child have, what are the problems down the road, etc etc.

I know there are *other* options. But right now I want to look at the choice of either staying in our current situation or moving and having her be with ehr dad more.

I feel strongly about the custody changing right now. It's currently a really wacky, confused, weird mess. It would not be possible to move and keep the current arrangement. There is a LOT of bouncing around between houses at inconsistant intervals and I feel strongly about having her at one house during the week when she's in school.

In terms of waiting: Well, my DH HAS been given the promotion, but it takes a few months of training and he stays here while training. This is why I'm looking at these options as primary options.........at the end of the training we WILL be asked to move. Thats a given. At that point he can say he's changed his mind, however as you can imagine that won't sit well with his employer. He's only in the first phase of the training as it stands now and could back out at *this* point with no real harm done and still be ok with his boss.

Heres the weird thing........if he gets promoted, we'll likely be asked to move to an even more expensive area. While he'd get a raise, it would be the same. The bonus is then he's at a higher salary and has more experience and we'd be able to move someplace cheaper at THAT point and be making a LOT more money. The other move we are entertaining is that he decline the promotion but we move north, to where my family is, and where there is a cheaper cost of living. If he backs out of training now AND we stay put, we are really screwing ourselves financially.

Also, my daughter starts school at the begining of September. I am VERY no ok with moving her mid school year. So if we wait, we're waiting till next summer and again I think the same issues would be present BUT I may be at a lesser advantage because she'd have started school here and the courts may be reluctant to make her leave her school and friends. I don't know.

No it's not possible to move less.......because what would be the point? The MAIN issue with moving to my hometown is free childcare. Right now, or if we split the difference and moved only an hour away, it wouldn't matter.......we'd be in the same financial crunch with me unable to work.

Whats more important.......a better job and life or staying with my daughter? Well, it's honestly VERY important to me to be able to provide for my family.....ALL of them, not just my daughter and I hope that doesn't sound bad. I mentioned in another post, I am feeling very weird about the fact that my son may have to suffer because we'd have to sacrafice so much JUST for my daughter. If I were single again and didn't have other kids......this choice would be a no brainer.......but I have a whole family to consider now and I think whats fair and good for them needs to be considered equally with whats fair and good for my daughter.

In terms of the "what ifs"......
If my DH loses his job in my hometown, we'd have MANY family members we could flat out move in with if needed, not to mention I could find a job there in a heartbeat. Knowing people since you're eight has it's advantages. We don't have that anywhere else.


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## andreac (Jul 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pugmadmama*
The OP cannot do that without breaking a legal agreement she entered into. If I'm remembering correctly, neither she nor her ex can move without the other ones permission. Moving without permission of her ex or the court is *not* a good idea.


I know this is not what the OP is looking for anymore, but I just wanted to clear up what I meant. I didn't mean that she should break the custody agreement, I meant that she should fight to get permission from the court to move with her daughter, sorry I didn't make that clear!!







Thanks, pugmadmama for pointing that out, I'd hate to have given that impression!

Anothermama, I don't have anything to say about your 2 choices, I feel so bad for you that that is what you feel you have to choose between. It really sucks that because your daughter's father has more money, he has the advantage. If you decide to move and have your DD stay with her father ( altough I really hope you can find a way to move and keep her with you), I will agree with a PP that you make sure the the change is custody is only temporary, so that way it when/if your daughter wants to come HOME to YOU, it would be easier. I wish I had more words of wisdom to offer you but I don't so I'll just offer


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

At five years old, my child would have no input. My child counts on me to use my adult-level judgement and wisdom to look out for his best interest. You've already said you believe your daughter is better off with you as her primary parent. What else is there to consider?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anothermama*
...Whats more important.......a better job and life or staying with my daughter? Well, it's honestly VERY important to me to be able to provide for my family.....ALL of them, not just my daughter and I hope that doesn't sound bad. I mentioned in another post, I am feeling very weird about the fact that my son may have to suffer because we'd have to sacrafice so much JUST for my daughter...

A yard, a house, a Dad who makes more money...none of those things compare with having a close relationship with a sister. You may have a better job by moving, but you won't have a better life by depriving yourself and your son of your daughter's presence.

You also need to think about what you are teaching your son. What do you want him to grow up valuing? I think it would be a wonderful lesson for _both_ of your children to know that you put having them stay together, in your loving family, over having a house, a yard, etc. (I don't mean that in a "guilt-trip the kids" way, I mean it in a "this are our families choices and we're proud of them" way)


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## corrie43 (Mar 9, 2003)

I think anothermama is right to be concerned about her whole family. She is living in a place that I think she said wasn't all that great, bad schools, not too safe neighboorhood ect. It is important to be living in a safe area. I would assume she wouldn't want her son to think everything revolves around his sister or he might end up resenting her later on down the line.

Also consider her husband's feelings. He may feel resentment toward ther daughter if he has to live in a substandard area and give up his promotion because of the arangement. He may be ok with it and that's great, but if not it can be tough. There were issues of resentment with my dh and it showed. That is one of the reasons my daughter is living with her dad right now. It was not fair to her, the way my dh favored his own kids.

Totally different situation, but something for anothermama to think about.


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## andreac (Jul 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pugmadmama*
A yard, a house, a Dad who makes more money...none of those things compare with having a close relationship with a sister. You may have a better job by moving, but you won't have a better life by depriving yourself and your son of your daughter's presence.


As Corrie43 said, it's not just about wanting a "nice place to live" It's about wanting a SAFE place to live and a SAFE school to send her daughter (and son someday)to. She said in the other thread that the neighborhood they live in is not nice, the schools have gang problems and they are outgrowing the apt they live in.

While I agree that family is the most important thing, she's talking about moving a 2 hour drive away, not across country. She would still be able to see her father often.

Anothermama, you also mentioned in your OT that your DD's dad works full time and is in graduate school, is he really going to be able to handle full custody of your daughter? I know you are concerned about him being able to afford a fancy lawyer, but even if you have no lawyer at all, I just can't imaging a judge giving full custody to someone with that kind of schedule when you are a SAHM. Again,







to you!


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

anothermama said:


> Whats more important.......a better job and life or staying with my daughter? Well, it's honestly VERY important to me to be able to provide for my family.....ALL of them, not just my daughter and I hope that doesn't sound bad. I mentioned in another post, I am feeling very weird about the fact that my son may have to suffer because we'd have to sacrafice so much JUST for my daughter. If I were single again and didn't have other kids......this choice would be a no brainer.......but I have a whole family to consider now and I think whats fair and good for them needs to be considered equally with whats fair and good for my daughter.
> 
> 
> > What's more important- staying with your DD or a "better" life?
> ...


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

I don't have experience with this, but why is two hours away a big issue? It's not like visits can't continue on a regular and frequent basis.

If your DH does get promoted, as someone else suggested, why move the entire 2 hours away?


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Well, between only those two I would stay. I would even sacrifice my marriage to do so. Just my very blunt and honest opinion.


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## corrie43 (Mar 9, 2003)

Quote:

Rainbow Well, between only those two I would stay. I would even sacrifice my marriage to do so. Just my very blunt and honest opinion.
Even if you had kids with your husband? Then you would be breaking up another family as well. It's not as easy as you might think. You have to consider everyone's feelings in a situation like this. Anothermama has a HUGE choice to make, everyone who says "I would do anything to keep my child with me" has probably never been in a situation where they would ever have to make a choice like that.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Moving this to Parenting Issues...


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Well, I for one am thoroughly confused. I don't understand why moving 2 hours away means the daughter ends up in full custody with the Dad. The OP made a comment about not wanting her shuffled around during the school week, but others are saying her current neighbourhood is less-than-desirable...so wouldn't that mean that the DD is going to be in a crappy school if she is with Dad during the week? I don't get why she can't move with the family and still see her Dad on weekends, unless that means decreasing her current visitations, resulting in the Dad deciding to sue for custody during the week.

I agree that a job promo and buying a house are not the be-all and end-all of life. My feelings tend to run with Rainbow that I would do anything to keep my DD with me, and I would consider it a lesson to the rest of the family that if they were in similar trouble I'd fight just as hard for them.

However, corrie does make a point: I really cannot even begin to comprehend what it must be like to not only have to shuffle your child between 2 parents, but add to that remarriage and new children...ugh. It's a nightmare and I feel so sorry for parents and kids in these "no win" situations. So I tend to think that corrie is right, and that really I have no idea what I would do in that case.

There, now wasn't that helpful?


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Czen*
I'm a divorced and remarried mom with a 13 year old DD from my first marriage, and two little ones with my DH. The firm rule I have is that my DD never, ever makes decisons about where she lives, how often she see's her dad, or what holidays she spends where.

Its to much of a burden for a child. She wants everyone to be happy and feels she is betraying one of us if she chooses the other. She is very content to have me arrange everything and then just tell her whats going on.

I feel strongly that we should let the kids be kids and us adults should be hammering out the options without their involvement.

My ex's home is also alot funner then ours but as she grows up I see her happier and more relaxed to return home to the rules, nutrition, and everything else. For us dad is fun, but mom is home.









Your entire post is beautifully written......

Words of wisdom from someone who has BTDT

I still vote that daddy moves to see dd. His decision.

You know - the whole thing sucks.

There really is not going to be a decision that won't have SOME fallout.

BUT (big butt here - and I do mean BIG) I'm selfish. And I would make me (and by that I mean dd - 'cause she's happy, you're happy) happy. And that means move.

Honestly - you think she would rather live with dad and be separated from baby brother. Come on! Never in a million years. You couldn't take that from her....... Didn't you also mention that the schools aren't great. Staying with dad would mean crappy schools.

Ya know - bless your heart - You are just consumed with this. I think you'll feel 100% better once you make a decision and go forward with THAT decision. Make sense?


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

_Quote:_

Whats more important.......a better job and life or staying with my daughter? Well, it's honestly VERY important to me to be able to provide for my family.....ALL of them, not just my daughter and I hope that doesn't sound bad. I mentioned in another post, I am feeling very weird about the fact that my son may have to suffer because we'd have to sacrafice so much JUST for my daughter

Here's what I think . . .I think the above statement means you've made up your mind. At this point, given the way everything stands, you would prefer for your DD to live with your ex, and then move when your DH needs to.

The hard part, I think, is that you wish you didn't feel this way. A lot of mamas here are telling you what they would do, that they could never not live with their children. I happen to feel the same way that they do, but I'm not you. I don't live your life, with your children, with your husband.

So, I think you made your decision, and now you need to work on accepting it. If you find it too painful or impossible to live with this decision, then it's time to go back and do more soul-searching.


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## Mama J Rock (Apr 2, 2004)

I would agree that dd shouldn't be involved in any decision making. It's too hard on any kids, let alone one the age of your dd.

Also, I would petition the court for a change in your agreement. If he sues for custody, he sues for custody and you will just have to deal with it then. I know that it can be intimidating that he can afford a lawyer, but that doesn't mean that a judge will totally ignore the facts and the main one being that you can provide a stable homelife with a SAHM to be there for everything rather than being shuffled around by a caretaker while her dad works long hours and goes to school. Also, if necessary reiterate to the courts that you have no intention of taking her out of his life and that you will do everything possible to see to it that they maintain a relationship, it will just be a different visitation schedule. Also, keep in mind that you would be giving her the chance to grow up among extended family as well.

If by some stretch you get a crappy judge who is wooed by his $ then you can re-evaluate the situation then but I think you just have to take it one step at a time. Petition for a change in the decree due to the relocation of your dh's job. Then if he sues for custody, jump through that hoop. From everything you've said, I can't imagine he would win custody.

I agree that it would be better to do it before she starts school though.


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## mocha09 (Jul 6, 2003)

I just stumbled on this tonight, and I don't have time to read the replies, so I apologize if this has been said.

I think there is a very good chance that your daughter will have serious abandonment issues and self-esteem issues if she gets primary custody with your dad. She will look back on this and think, new husband, new baby, and she got kicked off to the side.

A five-year-old should not be involved in any part of this decision-making process.

At this point, I think it would be extremely damaging and even neglectful for you to move.

I live in a small one-bedroom apartment. I will be living paycheck to paycheck most likely for the next eighteen years. I can think of much worse scenarios. I'm not going to compromise my daughter's future for the chance of a better "quality of life" as some people call it. Quality really comes from what we make of our day, and how we communicate with each other, and the joy we find in life. It doesn't come from a house and a yard and fat 401K.


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## weetzie (May 29, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius*

Here's what I think . . .I think [snip] you've made up your mind. At this point, given the way everything stands, you would prefer for your DD to live with your ex, and then move when your DH needs to.

The hard part, I think, is that you wish you didn't feel this way. A lot of mamas here are telling you what they would do, that they could never not live with their children. I happen to feel the same way that they do, but I'm not you. I don't live your life, with your children, with your husband.

So, I think you made your decision, and now you need to work on accepting it. If you find it too painful or impossible to live with this decision, then it's time to go back and do more soul-searching.











Thank you Elena, for putting the thoughts I was having into words.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
Well, I for one am thoroughly confused. I don't understand why moving 2 hours away means the daughter ends up in full custody with the Dad. The OP made a comment about not wanting her shuffled around during the school week, but others are saying her current neighbourhood is less-than-desirable...so wouldn't that mean that the DD is going to be in a crappy school if she is with Dad during the week? I don't get why she can't move with the family and still see her Dad on weekends, unless that means decreasing her current visitations, resulting in the Dad deciding to sue for custody during the week...

The OP shared in another thread that she and her DD's father signed an agreement that _neither_ would move without the others permission. Her DD's father is not giving permission for the OP to move 2 hours away. So, now they are in mediation and possibly going to court. From what I can gather, the OP is now considering giving up primary custody of her daughter so she can be free to move. Where the OP is living now, they can only rent and not in the best neighborhood. If they move, they can afford a house. And so on. Does that help?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *corrie43*
...Also consider her husband's feelings. He may feel resentment toward ther daughter if he has to live in a substandard area and give up his promotion because of the arangement. ...

Are you serious? You think it's a good idea to put a _grown man's wants_ ahead of a _child's needs_? Living in a better house and getting a promotion are _wants_, staying with the only parent you've ever lived with and who is the better parent is a _need_.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mocha09*
...I think there is a very good chance that your daughter will have serious abandonment issues and self-esteem issues if she gets primary custody with your dad. She will look back on this and think, new husband, new baby, and she got kicked off to the side.

...I'm not going to compromise my daughter's future for the chance of a better "quality of life" as some people call it. Quality really comes from what we make of our day, and how we communicate with each other, and the joy we find in life. It doesn't come from a house and a yard and fat 401K.









That brought tears to my eyes. I think you've perfectly captured what really matters to _children_...love, joy and time spent together. I think it's especially important that children never feel like that can/have been replaced by a new husband or new baby. My deepest fear for the OP's daughter is that that is what she will feel, no matter what the adults in her life tell her or how carefully they handle things.


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## Jane (May 15, 2002)

I've been going back and forth all day about posting this, but here goes:

I don't think you should be making any decisions right now.
I know you've outlined some really good reasons why you need to decide now. And both options certainly have good and bad traits. But I don't care about the merits of either argument.

You have posted some tough things about how your life seems right now.
Are you just searching for a secure future, a path, a change? It's my reading of your posts that you sound sort of desperate to find a path...
Since your decisions are going to affect your dh, and your two kids, and even you ex, I'd like to suggest that you make those decisions when you feel more balanced, even if it means letting go of a recent opportunity.
Just something I'm reading here.


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## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

Wow.

Ok.......let me address some of this...

First of all, I'm trying to not be offeneded and pi$$ed off, but no I have not made up my mind that I prefer my daughter to live with her dad. I PREFER her dad to butt the hell out and leave all together like he did 5 years ago, but that ain't gonna happen. I would PREFER that he see that it's not in HER best interest to be put in this crappy situation. But that doesn't look like it's going to happen either. I'm trying to look at this honestly and I'm trying to be honest about that but I feel like a couple posters took my honestly and perverted my words. I think it's important to take us ALL into consideration.......and somehow you are saying I want my daughter gone!!???

Uhm, no.

I should clarify another point........regardless of what happens, I want my daughter on a more consistant custody schedule for school. As it stands now, the percentage time breaks down to something like 60/40....60 for me, 40 for dad. So he sees her a lot. If we were to change the schedule to her being with me during the week, him on weekends and most holidays the percentage would essentially be unchanged. She'd still see her just just about as much, just in different time blocks.

The opposite is true. If her father were to gain custody of her during the week and I got the weekend/holiday thing.......it would be that. There is no way either one of us is going to gain FULL custody, nor will she not be seeing either one of us. It's not that extreme a situation.

I think that too much consideration is being given to her father here, and thats what bugs me........that *his* wants will affect my son for the rest of his life.I don't think *that* sends a good message to my daughter OR my son....the money buys justice, that I was willing to let this a$$hole bulldoze me again, that he gets away with treating his child and the mother of his child like this. I would never want my daughter to grow up to be a woman who'd just sit by and "take it" and as a result lessen her life, so why should I do that???

Something some of you have said, though, has made me think.......
I was raised very poor and my life only got better as my parents made sacrafices to better our lives. My parents lived in a little apartment where I shared a room with my little brother for a time......we played in dirt the cats shat it, we had oft skinned knees because we only had asphalt to play on, we had to be wary of the neighbors and constantly worried about the neighbor under us calling the cops on us. It was miserable. My parents were miserable and even as a child I knew that. I was embarassed of my parents crappy cars, and carried unsafely in the backs of them because they couldn't afford family safe cars. I know what thats like......our car doesn't fit all the car seats and people we need it too fit. When we lived in the city I couldn't walk to school, people made fun of my clothes, it was horrible. I'm going to be uber anti-AP here...........it's all fine and good to be a grown up and spout off about how lovely it SHOULD be and how we shouldn't raise our kids to be materialistic......but pre teens and teen agers aren't like that. Those kids can be brutal and I don't want to GIVE the bullies one excuse to pick on my kids if I can help it..........there will be things they get picked on, sure, but hopefully I can at least make sure they have clean, decent clothes and we drive a car that won't break down on the way to school or leave school smoking oil.
Anyways.........I thought of this and realized that its a HUGE HUGE issue for me to do better for my kids partially because of the bad childhood I had. And I don't know that I could ever be persuaded that it's entirely wrong to want that for my kids........

Bring that together with the custody.........my daughter, if she was with her dad, would still be with me %40 of the time. And thats still A LOT of time, and enough to make me want her to have her own room, for me to want to make sure she's got all that she can.

And you know.........it's not fun being poor. And it's stressful. I don't want to be worried about money and I don't want to raise my kids in a home where money is an issue. It was in MY childhood home and it made every other problem worse. It would be one thing if I had no choice.....but we do have a choice......we do have the opportunity NOT to be throwing so much away just on rent alone.

*sigh*
Again, you guys have really really REALLY given me stuff to think on..........something to occupy my mind while I'm up with the baby at 3am tonight............









Anyways..........keep the thoughts coming..............it's all giving me new perspectives to look at this from.

Apricot.........I think you're right. HOwever, if her dad pushes this issue, I have no choice.


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## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

p.s.
I just realized something very stupid of me...........
I guess I didn't make *this* clear either (I have a foggy brain these days....)

The MAIN reason for considering these options are because my daughters dad is somewhat sneaky......I *think* HE"S going to really push to have her majority time if we have to move. I would push to have her most in a HEARTBEAT, but I may not have an attorney and he may. I'm trying to look at worst case scenario.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I think your ex may be trying to bully you.

Frankly, I think you are rolling over to easily. If you ignore his threats, and make plans with how to continue the 60/40 custody arrangement in the time you have left with your DH's training, then let it go to court. I think that your ex is thinking he can bully you into giving up more than you should, when if this were to go to court, he'd look like an ass--especially if you've already come up with a fair and reasonable plan (if a little hectic on your side, with the distance).

It's only two hours away. The decision doesn't need to be made now. You are leaving yourself wide open for bullying. Time to slow down and cool off. And don't obsess about "the future". You are worrying about a lot of things (like "never being able to buy a house", "holding DH back in his job", ect.) that haven't come to pass and won't come to pass for a bit. This makes it very easy to manipulate you, as your ex has done. He's gotten you in a tizzy, when probably he's the one who has the most to lose if you go to court. And I'm betting he knows just how to push your buttons too.

Forget the job until it's a sure thing. It doesn't hurt to ask for a closer assignment, and if he can't get it, then you might need to have him do a godawful commute for awhile while this gets straightened out. It would take you some time to get a downpayment right now anyway, so not being able to have a house right now is a non-issue too. It sounds like you need to prioritize your worries. I'm not saying it's easy to do, but you need to do it...because it really seems to me (as an outside observer), that you're really being manipulated by your ex. And it's up to you to put a stop to it.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anothermama*
...I think that too much consideration is being given to her father here, and thats what bugs me........that *his* wants will affect my son for the rest of his life.I don't think *that* sends a good message to my daughter OR my son....the money buys justice, that I was willing to let this a$$hole bulldoze me again, that he gets away with treating his child and the mother of his child like this. I would never want my daughter to grow up to be a woman who'd just sit by and "take it" and as a result lessen her life, so why should I do that??? ...

Honestly, I don't give a flying flip about your DD's father. My only concern is your DD and you. However, the fact is that her father _will_ have an inpact on your new family, including your son. It's not showing him consideration to face the reality of the situation. You have two children with two different fathers and, therefore, your life is going to be more complicated than if you have both children with one father.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anothermama*
...I was raised very poor and my life only got better as my parents made sacrafices to better our lives. ...I thought of this and realized that its a HUGE HUGE issue for me to do better for my kids partially because of the bad childhood I had. And I don't know that I could ever be persuaded that it's entirely wrong to want that for my kids........

Bring that together with the custody.........my daughter, if she was with her dad, would still be with me %40 of the time. And thats still A LOT of time, and enough to make me want her to have her own room, for me to want to make sure she's got all that she can. ...

It's not wrong to want better for your kids. But sometimes what is required to get there costs your child more than they will gain. Your daughter is not you. Will she look back and be grateful that you moved to a new town, with a new baby, and left her behind with her father? I'm finding it really difficult to imagine that she will feel that way, both as a five year old and as an adult.

If you move two hours away from your daughter, I simply do not see how you can compare that to being her primary parent. Her primary parent is going to be the one who does homework with her, who drives her to and from afterschool activities, who goes to parent-teacher conferences, etc. Do you really want to give that up? More importantly, do you really believe your ex would do as good or better a job than you would in that primary role?

People keep bringing this up, and I'm really wondering, why are you so determined to make a decision _now_? It sounds like your DH could tell his company "I can't do the training/move right now, but I'd love to in a few years." Family problems are nothing new to the business world. Make the appointment to go to court, ask if you can move. If the court says "yes", great! But if the court says "no", then you can start looking at different options. If you have to stay where you are, it's not the end of the world, right? Not buying a house now doesn't mean you'll never buy one. Your DH not getting promoted on his current schedule doesn't meant he'll never get promoted. With so much at stake, I just don't understand why you are pushing yourself to make this huge decision one month post-partum.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

thanks for clarifying, anothermama. I am up at 4 am with a baby who is still in my uterus but keepign me up late nonetheless.









sounds to me like you don't know for sure, but just suspect that your ex will ask for a change to the custody agreement, which doesnt' quite jibe with what pugmad said about you having to get his permission to move...or maybe I'm confused again.

I do understand what you mean about your living conditions. Being poor is one thing, raising your kids in a crappy neighbourhood is another. their peers will determine so much of where they end up in life, their attitudes, etc. You stack the odds against them when they grow up in an environment like that.

I tend to agree with Tigerchild that I think your ex is bullying you, threatening you and playing on your fears. can you just come out and ask him what he would do? can you just start makign the plans and see where they lead to? i mean, you an always back out.

a very tough issue. i'm so sorry you are having to deal with all this.


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

what a terrible spot to stand it, anothermama. i'm sorry for your grief, and for your dd. i don't really have any advice, just some random thoughts...
first of all, i have a friend that i admire very much who let her son go to his father at a young age. she was very young and very poor and overwhelmed, and he bulldozed her, and it didnt take much for him to win. his family played a part in it too. at one point, they did shared custody, and the little boy had some problems from all the bouncing around, so they decided he'd be better off with his dad, where he chose to go (he was only a little older than your dd)
so, now they're all happy with the situation, though she misses him more than she'll say, the damage is done. he is now really comfortable with his dad, and sees his mom every month or so.
you're giving up a whole lot more than you can realize if you let her go, even it starts off being a split amount of time.

i think there are some issues with your dh. well, duh, you said there were some. there's the financial quality of life, and the resentment that he is feeling. and the guilt that you must feel toward him, and toward your dd.

if it was me, i'd lose my dh before i'd lose my dd, but that's me. i also don't think her say matters in this. of course she wants to go hang with Big Fun dad, who never does the dirty work, like doctor visits and discipline and bedtime and chores. his money isnt going to replace you, anothermama. his money won't be her confidant and friend, and won't dry her eyes or kiss her boo boos, or tell her jokes and stories...

i grew up poor too, we're busting our asses to make a better life right now. my dh is struggling up the ladder in his job too. we live in a one bedroom apt, and don't have two dimes to rub together most weeks...i know how it can cloud everything. the not-having. the ugliness. the b/s you deal with being broke. but it's not worth it. you all won't be dirt broke forever. a year isnt squat. really isnt.

really, if i were in your shoes, i'd do nothing rash right this minute. see what happens with the job. *if youre making more money you can hire a good lawyer and make your ex get out of the picture, and you can have her full time.* which is what you're saying you want. youre the mother. most judges will award custody to the mama. she's at such a tender age, it's prob. gonna be healthier for her to be with you(or him) full time. the shared custody is a good idea in theory, but it doesnt work for most kids.

there was another poster that suggested you'd already made up your mind...i think maybe somewhere in your mind, you've thought it through and maybe you've resigned yourself to this. to giving your dd to your ex, for his sake, for your new dh and son's benefit, and in your mind, for your dd, but i think in your heart of hearts, you would hang on tight to that little girl and never let her go.

as far as im concerned, that's not a done deal yet, you've not really decided to do it. not in your heart.

it can be done, mama. you can get her. just hang in there a little while longer. things will happen, money will come along. a good lawyer will follow.

and if you do decide you can't raise her, you need that lawyer in place to assure that your ex raises her in a manner that you'd find acceptable, and that you'd be assured of planned visitation.

it's 5 am here, the insomnia beast bit me, (cruel joke, insomnia, when you have a toddler) and i may be talking straight out of my ass, please forgive me if i am.

i wish i could do something to help you all. pm me anytime.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anothermama*
Wow.

Ok.......let me address some of this...

First of all, I'm trying to not be offeneded and pi$$ed off, but no I have not made up my mind that I prefer my daughter to live with her dad. I PREFER her dad to butt the hell out and leave all together like he did 5 years ago, but that ain't gonna happen. I would PREFER that he see that it's not in HER best interest to be put in this crappy situation. But that doesn't look like it's going to happen either. I'm trying to look at this honestly and I'm trying to be honest about that but I feel like a couple posters took my honestly and perverted my words. I think it's important to take us ALL into consideration.......and somehow you are saying I want my daughter gone!!???

Uhm, no.

I wasn't trying to offend you or get you mad or even imply that "you want your daughter gone." It's just that for every solution suggested thus far, or when anyone says "I would never leave my child," you seem to have a "But . . ." answer. I usually take this to mean that the person has either decided or resigned herself (you seem to fall into the latter category) that the solutions would not work, and therefore out of her control (which for you means that your daughter would live with her dad).


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## WonderWild (May 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anothermama*
Hi ladies.........thanks for all the honest relies thus far. I am really having to think about some things......

I'd like to clarify, though......
I'm really asking this:
If you ONLY have these two options, which would you chose, how much input would your child have, what are the problems down the road, etc etc.

I know there are *other* options. But right now I want to look at the choice of either staying in our current situation or moving and having her be with ehr dad more.

WHY?

Why are you only wanting to look at these two options? Neither one makes you happy.

My thoughts are that I agree you are being bullied. You have to stand firm and fight. Is your ex really that selfish and self-centered that he would tear his DD away from her mommy over a measly 2 hour drive. And if the answer is yes, do you REALLY think it's best for her to be raised by a person like that?

From what you said it seems like your DH already has the promotion. After training all he has to do is say yes and it's a go to move. No one has mentioned so far that if you fight for your DD to be with you, is it possible that your DH can go ahead and move (visiting you on the weekends) and you stay to fight for your DD? Maybe you or your DH could stay with friends in the area so that you wouldn't have to try to supports two mortgages/rents.

Just my thoughts. I would choose NEITHER. And I believe that my DS would have no say in the matter. He is not old enough to understand any of it at the age of 5.

Hugs. I'm sorry you have to go through all this.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

most judges will award custody to the mama.
This is simply not true.

I have friends who have lost custody, mostly because they didnt have the $$ to fight. simple as that.

It is no longer a given that moms get custody and dads write a check. I'll tell you, if me and my husband were to seperate, i would guess that he would allow me to have primary custody because he belives that kids belong with their moms. However, should i decide to move out of the county....no way no how, and he would fight tooth and nail. and even as a nurse, i come no where close to his earnings, and he just might win because he has more money to fight with, not because he is the better parent. (on the other hand, should my new partner be a surgeon with money to burn, we might be able to bury him in court, am i making sense?). *disclaimer: this is hypotheical. i adore my husband and have no plans to hook up with the extremely good looking orthopedic surgeon







s

Anothermama, i dont know what to say. The only thing that really keeps popping up in my head is that your kids have two different dads, and it looks like your daughters father might very well have more of an impact on your new sons life than you and your husband wish to. I dont know how to fix that. In a perfect world, i suppose, we wouldnt be having this conversation.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

I wanted to say that my brother has sole custody of my niece, and my neighbor next door has sole custody of his son.

And the longer i am in the er, the more i am seeing dad as the primary parent.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anothermama*
I think that too much consideration is being given to her father here, and thats what bugs me........that *his* wants will affect my son for the rest of his life.I don't think *that* sends a good message to my daughter OR my son....the money buys justice, that I was willing to let this a$$hole bulldoze me again, that he gets away with treating his child and the mother of his child like this. I would never want my daughter to grow up to be a woman who'd just sit by and "take it" and as a result lessen her life, so why should I do that???


anothermama, I think it appears this way but if you look at every single reply that you have gotten to this thread, there is one consistency: everyone who responded is giving their opinion based on what they think is best for your daughter. It may seem that by considering the presence of your ex in her life that we are giving *him* consideration - not so. It is *her* best interests (or our perception of her best interests) that are being examined.

I really believe that she is best off with you as the primary parent given everything that you have said. I know that means that your son and DH will have to sacrifice. But that scenario has been in place for a while, this is not a new circumstance that has appeared and your DH had to know what he was getting himself into when he married someone who already has a child.

My brother is going through the exact same thing right now. He and his wife have a new baby, she has a child from a previous marriage. They want to move, her ex won't allow it. The only way to go is to give up primary custody. I don't know the answer but I do know that whatever you come to, it will be the best decision that you can make with the information you have.

Oh, and I know this is probably obvious but I'll say it anyway. Those of us following this thread are doing so because we really do care. Even though we may say things that you may not want to hear (or some may say things more bluntly than others), we really do care.


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## mammastar (Nov 5, 2002)

Hi there,

I've been following this thread and the other one, without commenting but with a lot of interest. I have some experience with some of these issues, as a stepmum who has moved across the country with my husband, away from his two older girls, and also in the context of a pretty contentious relationship with their mother (alright, it's downright awful, but I'll leave it there and move on to your situation!).

I know it's scary that he has money and you don't, and that he is willing to use it to cause trouble. Yes, it's important to face the worst-case scenario up front and see if you could live with it, i.e. you move, he sues for primary custody, you don't have a lawyer, and the decision is in his favour. More on that later. BUT you also need to look at the total picture and at what is in your favour. I'm in Canada, not the US, so maybe family law is different to some degree, but probably not hugely.

First, the status quo matters enormously in custody cases. This means that he or she who has the kids generally keeps the kids - courts are not easily persuaded to change the arrangements. They have a basic sense that it will be more disruptive to turn a child's custody arrangements on their ear than for a kid to move a few hours away and go to a new school. The big stuff that you're living with right now, with moves and promotions and changes - courts see this all the time. They know it's part of a lot of kids' lives, and that they adjust. So you have that in your favour.

Second, let's look at your own family situation. You can offer your child you as a stay-at-home parent, a stepdad with whom she has a good relationship, and a younger sibling she loves, as well as a good home life where she learns boundaries and responsibility. When you move, you will be able to also offer an extended family, a safe environment, and financial stability. If it does come to court, say these things. Courts like parents who value these things for their children and who show that they are acting responsibly to plan for their children's well-being. You have also always facilitated her having lots of time with her dad and will continue to do so. You will present as a stable, boundary-setting 'planner' who cares deeply for her daughter's future. You move two hours away for all these good reasons and the court is going to turn her family life upside down as a result? Probably not.

Try not to let yourself be bullied. If her dad really is playing on her emotions and trying to be the 'fun' one so she'll 'choose' him, that's very uncool and irresponsible of him (and here I have a lot of experience with my kids' mom) - it hurts children terribly to be forced to choose between their parents. Whatever he does, don't play that game. It can be hard when you feel like you're being pushed into it, but resist it.

If the worst case scenario happens and for some reason he succeeds in getting the custody arrangement changed (which I don't think would happen, but you ought to think about), you be the best mom you can be to your daughter every weekend, every school holiday, and every phone call. You go to every school concert, you send her funny, loving notes, and you stay 'there for her' in every way you can. You will be no less of a parent and no less of a mother for it.

Good luck with your decision!


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## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

more more more........*sigh*

Well lets see.........

The reason I am looking at this, the reason I am looking at those two options specifically is this:

My daughters dad is sneaky and I think this is where he's pushing things. Period.

He came in having not been involved with her and sued me and ended up with nearly 50/50 custody. Everyone I know what shocked, but money bought it. I wasn't able to fight it and this man who wasn't a competent parent, who had put her in physical danger and caused her to be exessively ill, who didn't want her in the first place..........he was able to spend a ridiculous ammount on an attorney when I was single and on welfare in college.......he bought what he has today.

I tend to see the court issue in terms of worst case, because thats what happened to me. Especially if this time I dont have an attorney again. He's strapped for cash now because of the new house BUT he also has a loaded family and a huge trust fund.

We started out with two issues........the first issue was actually setting up a school year schedule for her. We cannot agree on a schedule. I am pushing for her to be with me during the week. I have a strong feeling that he'll then say "You're right..........she should be in one place during the week.......WITH ME". And, again, if I don't have an attorney, I'm not sure how I'd argue effectively that I want her in one place during the week, but only if it's with me. The courts look badly on you if you look like you are trying to KEEP your child from their father.

As for my DH...........he works in retail. It's not a nice little "Oh! You have family issues? Ok we'll wait!" scenario. It moves fast and if you don't get in there there are a million other people to take your place.

And, again, it's not practical for us to live on his current salary for the next two or three years. We'd just sink further into debt. Sure, we'd "get by" and pay basic bills, but that would be it. Ultimately I don't think thats good for my kids. Sure, he can tell his boss that he can't be promoted right now.....and he'll probably never be offered the promotion again, ESPECIALLY if he puts it off for a year or more.

Also........I may have put some sentence together wrong.....my DH is amazingly supportive of me and my dd and is not resentful of her AT ALL. I know he'd be.......sad if he wasn't able to provide better for his family. I know he'd be sad if he had to turn down the promotion. But I also know he WOULD if we thought it was best. Which is what we're trying to decide. He's an amazing man.

To make things crystal clear, I think that my dd's dad is a substandard parent. I think I'm a much better parent than him in general and a HUGELY better parent than he is to our daughter. And, FWIW, we were never married.

If I could ignore this issue now, I would. But I don't think her dad will let me. I think he's up to no good. And I want to be prepared.

And, to be honest, it's very invalidating to have feelings and have people tell you that your wrong for them and to ignore them. I'm not the kind of person who COULD just magically forget about this issue even if I wanted to. It's not who I am. If you feel its stupid or whatnot to be looking into it, fine. But that doesn't help me.

I have to look into this because I don't know what my dd's dad has up his sleeve and I think it would be irresponsible of me to pretend this elephant isn't in the room right now. Yeah, sure as hell he's trying to bully me. It's what he's done for years. I ignored it in the past and it got me less than state minimum child support and he got her for tons of time......tons more time than he SHOULD have. Time to try a different tact I think.

Anyways........I appreciate the words of support and the continued ideas of things I need to think about in this issue.


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## sagewinna (Nov 19, 2001)

Did you check into the McGeorge School of Law's community legal clinic yet? They are in Sacramento! It is not Legal Aid, it's law students, overseen by a lawyer who is there every step of the way. They will go to court with you, file papers, everything. They rock and are dirt cheap. I only paid for phone calls and copying costs.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Well, the more you post, anothermama, the more I am understanding the situation.

So I'm thinking this sort of started off with the school issue, and that perhaps if you at least stayed in the same place you are now, that he might be okay with you having her all week...but do you know that? I suppose you don't. Maybe this is the first issue you should tackle with him, and try to get that ironed out. After all, if he's going to push for the weekly custody even if you stay put...well, then you really have nothign to lose by moving and alot to gain. Can you be sure that if you stayed, that he would honour this weekly arrangement?

On to the next issue: it does sound as though this promotion is not something you can just pass over and get again later. So it does merit a great deal of consideration.

I dunno...the more I read about this, I'm sort of starting to change my mind. I'm thinking that the girl's dad is going to be a prick no matter what happens. I'm thinking that maybe you should just decide to move and take it from there. Because from the sounds of it, there is no guarantee that he isn't going to push for the weekly custody thing now, if you push for her being in one place during the school week. And if she goes to school in your current neighbourhood, and lives with him, would he be willing to put her up in a private school, perhaps shielding her from some of the negative environment?

This is all so complex, but it seems like you are going to have to make a decision when your DH's training is up. I think what I would do in the meantime (I'm guessing your DD's dad does not know about this right now) is just deal with the schooling issue with him, and see how willing you think he would be to let you keep her during the week, even if you stay put. Mind you, he could change his mind any time.

Oh, and I guess you know already to document everything. Perhaps this schooling issue could be handled via letter correspondance, so you can prove what your motivations were, along the lines of mamastar's post.

big, big hugs...and I agree with lovebeads...we are all posting here b/c we care and want to help you. please try not to be upset if people say things that may not apply...we don't know you that well, but i know all our hearts are in the right place.


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## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sagewinna*
Did you check into the McGeorge School of Law's community legal clinic yet? They are in Sacramento! It is not Legal Aid, it's law students, overseen by a lawyer who is there every step of the way. They will go to court with you, file papers, everything. They rock and are dirt cheap. I only paid for phone calls and copying costs.


I will call today.......but when I called them the first time they said they only had room for a certain number of family law cases and at that point they were all full up..........but it can't hurt to check back! Cross fingers for me!!


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anothermama*
...The reason I am looking at this, the reason I am looking at those two options specifically is this:...My daughters dad is sneaky and I think this is where he's pushing things. Period. ....

Wait a minute, now I"m confused. You originally said that you were revisiting the custody issue because you want to move back to your hometown. You wanted to move back because you could afford a house, you'd have free childcare and your family had connections that would help DH get a job. You also said that neither you nor DD's father could move without the other one's permission, as that's what your custody agreement states. Isn't that what you said?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anothermama*
...And, again, it's not practical for us to live on his current salary for the next two or three years. We'd just sink further into debt. Sure, we'd "get by" and pay basic bills, but that would be it. Ultimately I don't think thats good for my kids. Sure, he can tell his boss that he can't be promoted right now.....and he'll probably never be offered the promotion again, ESPECIALLY if he puts it off for a year or more.
...

Your children are so little. I would bet a lot of us "sank deeper in debt" when our children were very little, I know I did and so did my parents before me. Paying basic bills and "getting by" is all that most people with small children do, at least the ones that I know. And you know what? _The kids don't care._

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anothermama*
......To make things crystal clear, I think that my dd's dad is a substandard parent. I think I'm a much better parent than him in general and a HUGELY better parent than he is to our daughter. ..

_Then keeping your daughter with you for the majority of the time needs to be your priority._ Not a house, not a yard, not a promotion for your DH. Don't give up on your daughter. Don't move away without the courts permission and risk having custody taken away. Don't give up and just give him primary custody. If you want to move, then go to court. Maybe the court will say "yes". But if they say no, then deal with it.

I don't want to be harsh, but I _really_ don't understand how you can say "my DD's dad is a substandard parent" and then talk about possibly moving away and leaving DD with her dad for 60% of the time. I just don't understand, I feel like I must be missing something huge.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pugmadmama*
I don't want to be harsh, but I _really_ don't understand how you can say "my DD's dad is a substandard parent" and then talk about possibly moving away and leaving DD with her dad for 60% of the time. I just don't understand, I feel like I must be missing something huge.

I think the OP was really just thinking out loud and trying to work things out as she goes.


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *corrie43*
Even if you had kids with your husband? Then you would be breaking up another family as well. It's not as easy as you might think. You have to consider everyone's feelings in a situation like this. Anothermama has a HUGE choice to make, everyone who says "I would do anything to keep my child with me" has probably never been in a situation where they would ever have to make a choice like that.

I wouldn't jump out of a marriage just for fun- but if DP said to me "I'm going you can stay or go" and the only way to keep my daughter was to stay- than I would stay and choose her needs over my DP's dreams. Even if I had another child with the man- I mean I would choose staying with my daughter over staying with the parent of my other child. She asked for honest opinions, and that is mine.

I also want to agree with the previous poster who thought that it might spark some abandonment issues. I was given up by my mother at age 4 (albeit much more extreme circumstances) and I struggle with abandonment issues every day of my life. Maybe children who grow up with their mothers feel the same about their fathers- I can't say. From my own experience though- I think it would cause abandoment issues.

Generalization ahead: most men are not as affectionate and physical as women. Men are over sexualized in our society, making affection and touch seem improper even between father and daughter. I can't express how hard it is to grow up with that very important human need lacking. Not to say it would be with her father- just with many men who haven't evolved enough to realize that touch and affection do not equate to sexuality.

I'm gonna talk about me for a minute, not your DD. My mother moved on, created a new family. I can't explain how I've struggled with this over the years. Why was I so disposable? Why did she keep my brothers?

I'm not an emotional person, I'm pretty hardened... and I still get teary thinking of all I lacked by not having a mother. Nobody to share my confusion and excitment and worry of my first period. Nobody to lay with me in bed and rub my hair while we talk about girl stuff. Nobody to take me shopping for my first bra. Nobody to hold and comfort me and tell me it was ok to cry without thinking I was being wimpy or "just" emotional.

I'm being honest when I say I would keep my daughter with me at all costs, and I can only speak my own opinion and perspective. I *do* know poor. I grew up either in trailer parks or the ghetto. We took expired food out of the trash behind grocery stores that were in walking distance since we often had no car. I wore my brothers hand me downs, and was often made fun of. We often went without running water and electricity. I couldnt' afford pads so I had to use rolled up socks and material. No machines, so I had to hand wash them. I know poor very well- so I'm not coming in from a privileged perspective without understanding teh dynamics of financial insecurity. Still that is my opinion.


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## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pugmadmama*
Wait a minute, now I"m confused. You originally said that you were revisiting the custody issue because you want to move back to your hometown. You wanted to move back because you could afford a house, you'd have free childcare and your family had connections that would help DH get a job. You also said that neither you nor DD's father could move without the other one's permission, as that's what your custody agreement states. Isn't that what you said?

Your children are so little. I would bet a lot of us "sank deeper in debt" when our children were very little, I know I did and so did my parents before me. Paying basic bills and "getting by" is all that most people with small children do, at least the ones that I know. And you know what? _The kids don't care._

_Then keeping your daughter with you for the majority of the time needs to be your priority._ Not a house, not a yard, not a promotion for your DH. Don't give up on your daughter. Don't move away without the courts permission and risk having custody taken away. Don't give up and just give him primary custody. If you want to move, then go to court. Maybe the court will say "yes". But if they say no, then deal with it.

I don't want to be harsh, but I _really_ don't understand how you can say "my DD's dad is a substandard parent" and then talk about possibly moving away and leaving DD with her dad for 60% of the time. I just don't understand, I feel like I must be missing something huge.

You are missing something huge. At this point I feel like you are selectively reading and selectively bringing up points to attack me. While I know I said I wanted POV, You've made yours clear and I respectfully ask that if you want to discuss this further with me, please take it to PM or email. I feel that answering you through this thread is leading me into a postion where I'm just being defensive and, again, you've made your point crystal clear. This is a very touchy subject as I'm sure you can imagine. I brought it up here because *most* of the MDC mamas are the most amazingly awsome group of supportive, insightful, and thoughtful mamas around. Again, I appreciate the points that have been brought up. I have been made to think about things I didn't think were issues. For that I am grateful. But I did not mean this to be a thread in which my parenting, my love for my children, or my morals were called into question and it was demanded that I explain those things.


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## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab*
I think the OP was really just thinking out loud and trying to work things out as she goes.

Partially, yes. Thank you for understanding that.


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## fullofgrace (Nov 26, 2002)

Well, I find myself creating a different answer to your "Do I do A or do I do B?" that technically still fits the parameters of your guidelines of the answers you're requesting.









I say, yes, plan to move to the new area with your husband, daughter, and newborn son, but not until the end of the 2004-2005 school year (since not breaking up the school year is very important to you).

My reasoning? You said your DH won't actually GET the promotion for 6? months anyway, so job-wise, there really is no need to move right now. For the next six+ months after he gets the promotion, can he commute (just for those 6 months)? It sounds like with his increase in salary, by paying your current rent, you'll then have money left over each month if you stay where you are. Saving that extra money each month would add up to either a down payment on a house, or a retainer for an attorney should you feel you need one when you are ready (on all fronts -- house, job, family, and legal issues being squared away) to move. By giving yourself that extra year to prepare, you could plan a pre-emptive strike for DD's dad's attempt at a 'sneak attack'. You can start to find out your rights and get things in place now versus right when you are trying to move. Yeah, he'll probably put up a fight, but you'll be already armed and ready for it, taking away the advantage he thought he had. KWIM?

I realize that six months will be awfully hard for your family due to the time taken from it. I know all too well (I have 3 kids under 7, two with special needs, and my DH commutes an hour+ each way so actually, we all understand), but when you have realized your goal of providing the better life you envision for your entire family, won't it be sooo worth it?









I completely understand you wanting to move to a better area to give your whole family a better life and truly believe that you CAN do it!


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## simcon (Jul 31, 2002)

anothermama--

I know this doesn't exactly apply to your situation, but since you asked about 5 and 10 years from now...

My parents got divorced when I was 5, and my dad had primary custody of us (my mom saw us every other weekend/2 weeks in the summer)--and I never felt abandoned or anything by my mom--I always thought they just made the best decision for us given the circumstances (my mom lived about 70 miles away). And, despite the time imbalance during my childhood, I now have equally close (and they are close) relationships with both of my parents. FWIW. It seems that your situation is different because there's a lot more going on (my parents had a "friendly" break up, and they could work out everything out of court, etc...) and it seems that you do not feel that your daughter living with her dad is the best decision for her, so that makes it different....

In terms of suggestions, the one I would echo is that a five-year-old should have no responsibility to provide input into the decision...

Sorry your situation is so hard....


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## Mama J Rock (Apr 2, 2004)

Just a question. If your dd's dad does have her during the week once school starts, what is his plan for dropping her off and picking her up from school as well as after school care if he works full-time? The fact that you are a SAHM and would be available to handle those times yourself definitely would look good to the courts.


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## mammastar (Nov 5, 2002)

I stand by my comments earlier, about the strength of your position if this should go to court, but I also want to reinforce what I said about your 'worst case' scenario.

I don't think that this is about 'keeping' versus 'giving up' your daughter ( I suspect that a few of the comments from other posters fall into this trap). Worst case, you have her with you 40% of the time instead of 60%. You're her mom, you'll always be her mom, and you would hardly be abandoning her! Some children feel abandoned even though they live with their parent 100% of the time - abandonment is an emotional issue, not just a matter of playing the percentages. If you are there for your daughter emotionally and you are steady for her over the years, it will show. If she has problems, you can work on them. You can't do anything about how her father parents her (this is a lesson we've learnt, and it's incredibly frustrating), but you can show her another way of living in the world - and you're going to be giving her the important gift of seeing how a functional adult relationship works, between your new husband and yourself. Even if you are not with her the majority of the time, this is valuable.


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## Snowbaby (Nov 23, 2003)

I didn't have time to read all the replies (newborn at home) so I hope I'm not repeating.

My brother divorced his wife and his then 6 year old son was given the choice as to who he wanted to live with. The child chose my brother and now lives with him. I can tell you that this little boy is suffering big time. He feels sooooo guilty for choosing his dad over his mom when really he just wished he could be with them both. It is an impossible choice to give a child because they just want you both ... even if they pick one out of necessity. I believe that my brother's son was psychologically injured by being put in the position of making this choice and that he will forever wonder what wouldn've been if he'd made the oppositve choice and will forever feel like he hurt his mother. My brother is a good parent to him and so was his mother. But this boy is full of guilt for rejecting her.

My opinion is that you and your DH (and the courts if it comes to that) should make the decision as to what's best for her. Even if she doesn't like the decision (what child likes their parents separate?), she will not have the burden of blaming herself if it is not the right one nor will she have the burden of feeling guilt about rejecting one parent (that is overwhelming to a child).

Don't worry about your daughter having more "fun" at her dad's.... she needs more than "fun" to be raised into a healthy adult. She can have fun with dad on the weekends. Unless you have other reasons why you think it's best she go live with her dad the majority of the time, I say fight for her to stay with you regardless of what she wants. And DON'T put in the position of having to say whether she wants to be with daddy or with mommy more. The truth is that she wants both.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

*You must, must, must get legal advice.*
-My dh has primary custody of his son and bio mom recently moved back to town. I don't know what state you are in but nowdays in Calif. if you move you are giving up primary custody. Moving for a stepparents job is not good enough reason to disrupt the relationship with a bioparent.(Otherwise I wouldn't live here!!)
--Also, you seem very upset over the money that your ex has but let me share that my dh's ex has no money, no job, is on some kind of state aid but the fact that she is the bioparent is what gives her the 40% custody that she has inspite of the fact that she has a past of terrible parenting and alcoholism.

Courts seem to put the rights of the parents over the best interest of kids, sadly enough.

I'm just saying this because fair or not, courts respect the bond of both bio parents. Money or no.

Save, scrimp, beg, borrow money for a lawyer even just for advice.


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