# logical consequences or other approach to bedtime/mealtime dawdling?



## cww (Jun 1, 2010)

My older DD is five, and an expert at dawdling. Especially at meals and during the bedtime routine. Literally if an adult doesn't follow her around the entire time and remind her what she is supposed to be doing every 10 seconds, she finds some creative way to delay the task she is supposed to be doing (going to the bathroom, eating, brushing her teeth, changing clothes, etc). 

She is generally respectful and agrees to do whatever she is supposed to do--she just finds never-ending creative ways to drag everything out (she can't get the toothpaste out of a half-empty tube, she needs to get a glass of water, she can't find a clean pair of underwear, she forgot to put something away before going to bed, she got distracted on the way to the bathroom, she has to poop and needs extra time on the toilet, she has a tummy ache, she left her toothbrush in the other bathroom, she forgot to brush part of her teeth, etc, etc, etc). 

She does this even if she is visibly tired, and even if she herself tells us that she is tired. If left to her own devices, I don't think she would ever go to bed. 

Talking to her about the issue and asking her to suggest solutions has not helped. Awarding stickers for doing her bedtime routine in a timely way has also made no difference. 

I don't think we will get compliance on these issues unless we can enforce a specific immediate consequence, but our two discipline tactics of this type, timeout and logical consequences, don't seem to apply here. When she is trying to delay bedtime, a timeout is just a reward that plays into what she wants. And I can't think of a single logical consequence to her dawdling at bedtime. 

I was hoping someone here might have helpful suggestions? Thanks for reading my post!


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

My kid is much older but also takes her time getting ready for bed. If she takes too long and therefore gets into bed later than she should, I assume she needs to start earlier the next night and that means less free time in the evening.


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## Deborah (Dec 6, 2002)

She may be too old for this, but two ways of helping a child move along (recommended by my daughter who has raised two amazingly well-behaved children) are using songs rather than exhortations. For example, singing a song to go with tooth brushing might help her keep moving and it also closes down the opportunity to come up with excuses and distractions. The other, related approach is to make everything to do with bedtime into a ritual process. Everything is done in exactly the same way and in exactly the same order, with parents providing a very firm structure and guidance. Some children need a lot of structure and even children who don't can benefit from a very clear routine. 

The routine can also include some fun stuff, like being read to, or lighting a candle and reciting a poem. Whatever you think would be comforting and calming. 

I think some modern children are:
a) given too many choices
b) given too much responsibility for managing themselves, too early
c) not given enough guidance and direction

Not a fault of individual parents, it is the current style of child-raising. 

From observing my grandchildren, who had a lot of structure in babyhood and toddlerhood and even into first grade or so, as they have gotten older they are very good at being responsible, managing their own time and making decisions. Instead of being encouraged to make decisions starting early, they had adults around who modeled good decision-making processes. For example, watching parents cook, or clean up after a meal in an orderly and organized way, without bickering, gives little children a picture of how to get through a process smoothly. Healthy play involves imitation and opportunities to imitate healthy behaviors is essential.


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

I like to think of the function of the behavior. What is the behavior helping her to accomplish or achieve? She is getting lots of extra attention, probably what 'feels' like nurturing to her because it is a lot of physical presence when she may be starting to dwindle on her own reserves for the day. (even negative attention is attention and helps her delay the inevitable, which is separation for the night and saying goodbye to the day).

I wonder if you had a wonderful bedtime ritual that involved reading, maybe hand massage, or something else she would look forward to. She has to finish her get ready routine quickly to get to this other pleasurable routine that she wants and which also gives her the extra attention she deserves.

When we figure out why a behavior is occurring, it can get us out of that punishment/consequence mentality.


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## newmamalizzy (Jul 23, 2010)

I tell my 6 year old that this is the time I am available to participate in her bedtime stuff. She can delay if she wants, but I will have to move on with my evening. And I do, because her baby sister goes to bed right after her and really needs her bedtime to happen. I warn her once and then move on and let her be. She knows what she needs to do, and she generally does it very quickly to get caught up by reading time.


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## Deborah (Dec 6, 2002)

It is helpful to understand that misbehaviors in children are rarely due to a desire to make trouble  but much more often to an unmet need. 

We've all seen kids acting up because they are hungry, for example. 

It may be that getting ready for bed involves too many steps, choices, objects etc. for this particular child to negotiate on her own, especially at that time of day. A bit of simplification and additional support may be needed.


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## Deborah (Dec 6, 2002)

To give a practical example, my grandson didn't do well in the morning at getting dressed and ready for school when he was little. The solution that eventually evolved was having him put on some of the clothes he would wear the next day to sleep in, so he had less to cope with in the morning.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

When my kids were that age, I made a list of what they needed to do, step by step with simple pictures, put it in a sheet protector, and hung it on their mirror. Make sure that everything is set up for her before she starts. Lay the jammies out, put the toothpaste on, whatever. Teach her to do the first thing, then the second, etc. Always doing things in the exact same order makes it easier to do them. 


Then leave her to it. I completely agree that she is getting a lot of attention for what she is doing, and the first step is to remove all that attention. But when you talk to her about it, let it be about how big and independent she is getting. This is a positive thing  


The last step on the list needs to be something she likes -- such as being read to. For one of my kids, it was getting to draw in bed. She had a clip board and crayons and she liked to draw for awhile once she was ready for bed. The last step can be lots of attention -- just in a quiet way with her already for bed. The key to rewards is that it has to be something meaningful for the child. She doesn't care about stickers. She cares about attention -- so her last step is in some way your undivided attention. Have it on her list as a step. 


My advice is to tackle one problem behavior at a time. Really focus on the bedtime thing for a couple of weeks. Once she gets the hang of it, then start working on meal times. 


BTW, this is called using a visual schedule. Visual schedules are great for transition times -- we also had one for getting ready for the day. You could do one for after meal cleanup. Back when I made them for my kids, I did simple stick people drawings. Now when I make them for children at school (I teach special ed) I take a picture of the child doing the activity (digital photograph has gotten simpler in the last 15 years).


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## blackbird2 (Apr 14, 2008)

Hello,

I don't have advise, but I wanted to say that 5 yrs old was when we really had a peak in that sort of dawdling, unorganized preparation (bed, school, whatever) in our house. By 6yrs old, if memory serves, or at least now by 7yrs old, DS can get ready independently in a snap. I'm not sure we did anything in particular to make it happen, just time and patience.

Maggie


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## Nightwish (Sep 9, 2008)

She's five. I think this is pretty normal for her age. I haven't met yet a 5 yo who can go through a bedtime routine independently. I don't think she's misbehaving and needs to be punished for it.

My 6 yo is able to go through maybe two steps without reminders (like brushing teeth AND put pyjamas on), but can get distracted very easily (if she sees the cat all bets are off - she starts to play with it).


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

I had this problem with my son, too. I instituted a rule that if he gets his stuff done in the evening without me having to remind him, he can get a later bedtime. It's worked like a charm! But he's an older kid ... I started this when he was 10. Not sure if that would work for a five year old.


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## Rossalin (Jun 15, 2016)

cww said:


> My older DD is five, and an expert at dawdling. Especially at meals and during the bedtime routine. Literally if an adult doesn't follow her around the entire time and remind her what she is supposed to be doing every 10 seconds, she finds some creative way to delay the task she is supposed to be doing (going to the bathroom, eating, brushing her teeth, changing clothes, etc).
> 
> She is generally respectful and agrees to do whatever she is supposed to do--she just finds never-ending creative ways to drag everything out (she can't get the toothpaste out of a half-empty tube, she needs to get a glass of water, she can't find a clean pair of underwear, she forgot to put something away before going to bed, she got distracted on the way to the bathroom, she has to poop and needs extra time on the toilet, she has a tummy ache, she left her toothbrush in the other bathroom, she forgot to brush part of her teeth, etc, etc, etc).
> 
> ...


I think she is carefree. Better you train her and let her know how to do the activities on time.


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## PacificMar (Jul 24, 2012)

Like CWW's little one, my daughter is generally agreeable and wants to do what my spouse and I would like her to do, but she is also a master dawdler. She drags her feet the most at the end of the day, when all three of us are tired and inclined to grumpiness. Although she can feed herself, at dinnertime, we often end up helping her to each bite to keep her from taking two hours to finish. Alternatively, when she loses interest in eating, we let her go off to do whatever has caught her attention, offering the rest of the food later. The most annoying part is when she zooms off to play and then, when we think she's had enough to eat and start the bedtime routine, we'll be lying in bed and up will pipe her little voice saying, "I'm huuuungry! Is there anything for me to eeeat?"

I agree with the other posters that this bothersome behavior is at heart about needing more support and attention, particularly when her reserves are low. It isn't always easy for us to recognize that just because our little one can do something for herself (and often refuses help), it doesn't mean she is ready to do it by herself all the time. Small children also have a different attention style than adults: they're easily distracted by all kinds of fascinating things, and they're not task-oriented; they also don't have a sense of timing or schedules. She really doesn't yet get the connection between not finishing her dinner at mealtime and suddenly realizing she's hungry when she's started settling into bed (and it's not for want of us explaining this to her multiple times, and not always with great patience!)

Some of our elders have considered our helping her to eat her evening meal "enabling," since she can eat without help at breakfast and lunch. They also argue, "If you reward your child's 'bad' behavior with attention, she'll keep doing it." I can understand this viewpoint, but I've learned through my naturopathic family medical practice (as well as being a parent) that children's behavior is an effort to communicate something for which the child doesn't yet have the words, or the insight, to convey. This awareness has made me ask myself, "If she's demanding more attention and hand-holding, at age three and a half, she must need it," especially because she doesn't need it all the time and will even reject it at times. (I'd be more concerned that we were doing the wrong thing if she was exhibiting signs of learned helplessness and never wanted to take initiative.) Giving her a boost when she really needs it also means avoiding a mealtime or bedtime battle when we're all exhausted, and we get the tasks done faster besides. I figure that supporting her more now--letting her be "needy"--allows her to rest in a nurturing relationship with us, and ultimately this will facilitate rather than impede her growth toward independence and self-regulation. 

I hope that helps! Now off to a slooow lunchtime...:grin:


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## Mamalari (Jul 22, 2016)

*Logical Consequences worked with our 7 and 5 yr old*



cww said:


> My older DD is five, and an expert at dawdling. Especially at meals and during the bedtime routine. Literally if an adult doesn't follow her around the entire time and remind her what she is supposed to be doing every 10 seconds, she finds some creative way to delay the task she is supposed to be doing (going to the bathroom, eating, brushing her teeth, changing clothes, etc).
> ****
> I don't think we will get compliance on these issues unless we can enforce a specific immediate consequence, but our two discipline tactics of this type, timeout and logical consequences, don't seem to apply here. When she is trying to delay bedtime, a timeout is just a reward that plays into what she wants. And I can't think of a single logical consequence to her dawdling at bedtime.


Our daughter is a genuine slow eater, who also uses slow eating to prevent bedtime. Both DD (7 yrs) and DS (5 yrs) will bring up anything possible to slow down bedtime. That is until the logical consequences set in. We now allow our daughter about ten minutes longer to eat than everyone else. For the first five the whole family sits around the table talking and waiting, then we get up and tell her she has five mins to finish anything she wants to eat. Then the shoveling begins, and she puts a surprising amount away in a short time. It took loosing her dinner plate the first day, (and going to bed hungry), for that change to take effect.

When that worked so well, we extended the principle to the rest of the bedtime dawdling. If they choose not to use their tooth-brushing and pajama time to do those things, then they go to bed as is. The first time DD went to bed in PJ's but without brushing, and DS had to sleep in street clothes with furry teeth !! That one experience pretty much solved that problem as well. Once they knew bedtime was going to be bedtime no matter what, they changed how they used their time. While that may seem like "tough love," I find it useful to remind myself that the choice is being made by my child, and it is in my child's power to choose a different outcome-- And, it was ultimately the logical consequences of not using their time for those things.

Mamalari


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## Alexander (Nov 22, 2001)

*Are you not missing a trick?*



Rossalin said:


> I think she is carefree. Better you train her and let her know how to do the activities on time.


Why train out the carefree? She is 5. An idyllic age.

Although my DDs are older now, I don't regret resisting the "train 'em up" philosophy of yesteryear. I found in observing mine that the dawdling (and it can be frustrating if I am trying to do something else) was, in part, a child's meditation and exploration of the routine.

This behaviour in a 5yo is completely normal.

But there is another angle. Doing all that getting ready for bed needs to be done with a parent. Sending a child off to do all that stuff on their own is, to put it as gently as I can, (a little bit) unrealistic.

More important though is that we, as parents, can take this time in the to connect with he child in a really meaningful way. We rolled everything from brushing teeth to story time as a big family activity.

My feeling is that training by instruction is uncomfortably close to coercion, whereas goals achieved in teams gets results, and more importantly, love.

a


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