# Is this child neglect?



## justKate (Jun 10, 2008)

My 7 yr. old nephew (who I haven't seen in four years) came to visit this week with his grandparents (my in-laws). His mother (who lives with him and the grandparents in CA) is an on-again off-again unemployed meth user who supports herself with SSI due to an emotional disability.

IMO, this child is being neglected. Here's what I have observed:
1) He has a mouth full of rotten teeth. Several are black and cracked. His hair and nails are uncut.
2) If you reprimand him gently, ex: "Oops, you dropped your scrabble letters. Let's pick them up," he runs away and sulks.
3) He does absolutely nothing except attend school (usually) and watch TV. No activities, games with Gparents, outside play, friends, nothing.
4) He does not have uniform clothes (as required by his public school).
5) He rides in the front seat of the car and is _maybe_ 4 ft. tall and very thin. Hasn't been in a booster for years.
6) He wets the bed regularly and no one is helping him with it. They put him in pull-ups at night.
7) He watches horror movies in the evenings (which might be related to the bed wetting) and has to sleep with the lights on.
8) He sleeps with a dog, even though he has severe allergies for which he takes medication.

Is it NORMAL for children to live like this? He's already been placed in foster care by CPS a couple of times because the house was filthy.

What can I do/offer? His mother would never "give him up" and she's too out of it to reason with her. It's breaking my heart to see her ruin this child's life.


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## Amatullah0 (Apr 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *justKate* 
My 7 yr. old nephew (who I haven't seen in four years) came to visit this week with his grandparents (my in-laws). His mother (who lives with him and the grandparents in CA) is an on-again off-again unemployed meth user who supports herself with SSI due to an emotional disability.

IMO, this child is being neglected. Here's what I have observed:
1) He has a mouth full of rotten teeth. Several are black and cracked. His hair and nails are uncut.
2) If you reprimand him gently, ex: "Oops, you dropped your scrabble letters. Let's pick them up," he runs away and sulks.
3) He does absolutely nothing except attend school (usually) and watch TV. No activities, games with Gparents, outside play, friends, nothing.
4) He does not have uniform clothes (as required by his public school).
5) He rides in the front seat of the car and is _maybe_ 4 ft. tall and very thin. Hasn't been in a booster for years.
6) He wets the bed regularly and no one is helping him with it. They put him in pull-ups at night.
7) He watches horror movies in the evenings (which might be related to the bed wetting) and has to sleep with the lights on.
8) He sleeps with a dog, even though he has severe allergies for which he takes medication.

Is it NORMAL for children to live like this? He's already been placed in foster care by CPS a couple of times because the house was filthy.

What can I do/offer? His mother would never "give him up" and she's too out of it to reason with her. It's breaking my heart to see her ruin this child's life.

1,2, 5, and 8 do! #1 could be from meth or just general neglect. i'd call


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

*1) He has a mouth full of rotten teeth. Several are black and cracked. His hair and nails are uncut.
2) If you reprimand him gently, ex: "Oops, you dropped your scrabble letters. Let's pick them up," he runs away and sulks.*
*4) He does not have uniform clothes (as required by his public school).*

These could be signs of neglect and/or abuse. It sounds like he's used to much harsher discipline than "oops, let's pick them up". (Though uncut hair isn't necessarily a sign of neglect, I know a fair number of boys with long hair).

_6) He wets the bed regularly and no one is helping him with it. They put him in pull-ups at night._
This is not a sign of abuse or neglect. Our ds was in pull-ups until 6 weeks ago (he's 8). If a child is a bed wetter, "working" with them won't work. It's biological. Now, bed wetting after a child has been dry can be a sign of emotional trauma, but I don't think CPS would see this as neglect.

Our ds has to sleep with a light on, and he's never seen a horror movie in his life. It's part of the fears that come with being 7-8.

_3) He does absolutely nothing except attend school (usually) and watch TV. No activities, games with Gparents, outside play, friends, nothing.
5) He rides in the front seat of the car and is_ _maybe 4 ft. tall and very thin. Hasn't been in a booster for years.
7) He watches horror movies in the evenings (which might be related to the bed wetting) and has to sleep with the lights on.
8) He sleeps with a dog, even though he has severe allergies for which he takes medication.
_
These are parenting 'choices' that probably wouldn't be seen as neglect or abuse. They're definitely not things I would do, but I don't think CPS would get involved because of them.

Is kinship care an option for you? It sounds like he needs a more stable/more healthy environment.

If his mom is a meth user and he's been in foster care, does he still have a case worker? If so, I'd call them and express my concern over his teeth, appearance and lack of uniform. I'd skip everything else.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

The front seat thing might be ticket-able in CA, if he's under 60 pounds and there is a useable back seat. But I don't know whether or not it would be considered neglect. The CA booster law was 6-and-60, last I heard.


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

I would say the lack of dental care constitutes as medical neglect.


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## justKate (Jun 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
Is kinship care an option for you? It sounds like he needs a more stable/more healthy environment.

If his mom is a meth user and he's been in foster care, does he still have a case worker? If so, I'd call them and express my concern over his teeth, appearance and lack of uniform. I'd skip everything else.

I don't know if he still has a case worker. It seems like when he's removed from the house, things get better temporarily, then he goes back and everything falls apart again. The teeth are bothering me the most--it looks painful. But he doesn't complain, so maybe not. And I don't really want to call CPS; the neighbors do that regularly as it is and it never seems to really improve his circumstances....

The wetting the bed only bothers me because of the Gparents attitude towards it--"go take a shower and don't forget to put on your diaper." That sort of thing. And caffine before bed. No encouragement whatsoever. But I know it is also a biological issue--Huz (his uncle) had bladder control issues until he was 12 or so.

I would be happy to have him stay with us, but since we're in TX and his home and school are in CA, I don't know if it would be possible w/o Mom's consent, and she definitely would not want him to leave her, even though she takes off for days at a time and leaves him with the Gparents.

Not sure what I'm really asking here, I just feel compelled to DO something. I just don't know what.







Thanks for listening.


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## jeliphish (Jul 18, 2007)

call cps


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## jeliphish (Jul 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evergreen* 
I would say the lack of dental care constitutes as medical neglect.

it does for sure. What state are you in? I can pull up CPS policy for you I think.


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## MommyKelly (Jun 6, 2009)

Sounds very similar to one of my kiddos that came from a kinship placement.
I would call. And I am not one to advicate for turning people into CPS.

And if they find reason to remove him, you can get him placed with you 2 different ways. We have done both. One is an ICPC, and the other is Mom signing over custody BEFORE CPS removes him.

We have 3 kinship kids, from 2 different states.


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## justKate (Jun 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeliphish* 
it does for sure. What state are you in? I can pull up CPS policy for you I think.

He lives in California. I'm in Texas.

Quote:

And if they find reason to remove him, you can get him placed with you 2 different ways. We have done both. One is an ICPC, and the other is Mom signing over custody BEFORE CPS removes him.
What's an ICPC? I'm guessing it has to do with a court placement....


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## lovebug (Nov 2, 2004)

s to him and you! this has to be so hard!


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## elmh23 (Jul 1, 2004)

His teeth, appearence (not the long hair, but the nails) and lack of uniform would cause me to call.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Lots of kids wet the bed and wear pull-ups at that age. My first born did. You can't make someone's body hold pee in all night before that body is ready. Not strange, and probably not related to the other issues.

However, overall I'd say it sounds like neglect and maybe someone should check up on them.l


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## possum (Nov 23, 2004)

He may very well be neglected, and I don't envy your position as someone who might need to do something about it.
However, not all those things are only observed in children who are neglected.
My well-cared for 2.5 year old has ECC. He has had more dental visits and treatments than any other child his age I know and gets his teeth brushed 2x/day (more than any kid I know IRL). (In fact, moms on this forum have accused me and other moms like me who have to brush LOs teeth against their desires abusive. If I didn't other people would call me neglectful.







) There are lots of loving moms who ate well prenatally, BF their kids, provide good dental home care and still have kids who end up with ECC; check out the dental forum.
Right now he is sporting 1/2 a hair cut. It's a buzz cut that was going from like 3/4" to 1/2" so not all that noticeable to anyone but me probably, but he was done before the haircut was done. We didn't make an issue of it.
We keep his nails short because he is a nipple twiddler, so for my comfort and sanity it is a must. But it sometimes takes a lot of effort to get those done. Without my own personal reasons to have them short, I might not make such a deal out of it.
Wetting the bed could be from any number of things including food allergies. Also lots of children are afraid of sleeping alone in the dark. I think it's perfectly normal for a kid that age not to want to be alone to sleep alone in the dark.

I would be concerned about his reaction to a gentle suggestion/reprimand and his access to scary films.
Melinda


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## SunShineSally (Jan 18, 2005)

I would call and I would tell CPS that they can place him with me. If it were me that is what I would do. He is being neglected and very badly if he has teeth that are black and cracked







I cannot even imagine that







I would then think that he never had his teeth brushed once! I am also shocked if that is what his teeth are like that the school would call for neglect!! Here in NYS they just passed a law that for children to go to school part of the physical is a dental cleaning! Please keep us updated







I cannot even fathom what kind of place you are in emotionally right now it is so hard to step up like that even just to get advice and see what you can do for a child in that type of living situation. I would really just tell them everything that you know. I have actually called CPS once for a neglect issue in a child that I knew also it is hard and scary to do but obviously no one else will step up and be this little boys voice and that is what gave me the push to do so


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## Thisbirdwillfly (May 10, 2009)

Quote:

And I don't really want to call CPS; the neighbors do that regularly as it is and it never seems to really improve his circumstances
CPS keeps track of their calls. Please, call them and add your voice to the others.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
The front seat thing might be ticket-able in CA, if he's under 60 pounds and there is a useable back seat. But I don't know whether or not it would be considered neglect. The CA booster law was 6-and-60, last I heard.

nope, in CA it's 6 years *OR* 60lbs


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Oh thanks! I guess I was wrong about that part, then.


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## justKate (Jun 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *possum* 
He may very well be neglected, and I don't envy your position as someone who might need to do something about it.
However, not all those things are only observed in children who are neglected.
My well-cared for 2.5 year old has ECC. He has had more dental visits and treatments than any other child his age I know and gets his teeth brushed 2x/day (more than any kid I know IRL). (In fact, moms on this forum have accused me and other moms like me who have to brush LOs teeth against their desires abusive. If I didn't other people would call me neglectful.







) There are lots of loving moms who ate well prenatally, BF their kids, provide good dental home care and still have kids who end up with ECC; check out the dental forum.

That's a good point. I didn't know about ECC. Its just all of it together...but then I don't want to do anything that would make his life _worse_. I really appreciate all of the responses.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

My highly sensitive 5 yo dos #2. I don't see how it is in any way related to neglect.


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## elisent (May 30, 2006)

I think most of those could be poor parenting choices and/or caused from low income. The only one I would really be concerned about is his teeth. Is he on medicaid? His mom might not be able to afford dental care to fix all that. Why don't you do some research and find out if medicaid in his state covers dentist visits, and which dentists in his area take medicaid kids and are accepting new patients? Then you could call his mom and say you noticed he has cavities and give her the info you found.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

If he has ECC, mom could clear that concern up by showing proof of him receiving dental care. But that alone would cause me to call. Especially since he's getting adult teeth in which aren't really "replaceable" unlike baby teeth which fall out. And it has to be painful, but he may be used to it, poor thing!

I would call CPS. But I would not ask him to be place with you unless asked simply because you don't want it to look like you're reporting this because you want the child, kwim?


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## duchess_of_dork (Oct 6, 2008)

The first one is. The rest are not.


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## justKate (Jun 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elisent* 
I think most of those could be poor parenting choices and/or caused from low income. The only one I would really be concerned about is his teeth. Is he on medicaid? His mom might not be able to afford dental care to fix all that. Why don't you do some research and find out if medicaid in his state covers dentist visits, and which dentists in his area take medicaid kids and are accepting new patients? Then you could call his mom and say you noticed he has cavities and give her the info you found.

I will do that. He has Medi-Cal, which I think is the same as Medicaid. Maybe starting a dialogue about it would make someone in the house concerned enough to take him for care. And then if there is a medical condition she could mention it, and if not, I could offer to help with the dental care, at least....


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## MommyKelly (Jun 6, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *justKate* 
He lives in California. I'm in Texas.

What's an ICPC? I'm guessing it has to do with a court placement....

"The Interstate Compact on the Placement of Children (ICPC) is the best means we have to ensure protection and services to children who are placed across state lines for foster care or adoption. The compact is a uniform law that has been enacted by all 50 states, the District of Columbia, and the U.S. Virgin Islands. It establishes orderly procedures for the interstate placement of children and fixes responsibility for those involved in placing the child."

You would have to have a homestudy and a background check done while the court put the ICPC together. It outlines who is responsible for what for each state. If he has been removed before, then odds are they will offer services again, and if she does not complete them in the time allowed they will move to a TPR. Termination of parental rights. In Calif it is also refered to as a 2-6. TPR was done on dd bio parents 9 months after she went into care. It was her 2nd time in the system. Every worker is different so you never know what you will get, but that the VERY short version of how ours played out in Calif.

If they ended up doing a TPR and he was placed with you, it would turn into an adoption. Odds are they would ask you in the beginning if you were accepting of a adoption plan.

Good luck!!! I know it is a hard situation to be in.


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## basje (Jun 12, 2009)

Wow, you just described the condition of my step-sister's kids who is also a meth addict. Which is why I know a little about the CPS stuff here. It takes three different phone reports before CPS will even follow up on a case of neglect. Even with the cuts to state health-care dental for children is covered, so there isn't an excuse for the teeth. Call and report it. If it's the third report that's been made against the parents CPS will investigate. It takes a lot of parents to loose custody of kids in California likely if the parents fix the situation there isn't anything that the state can do but check up on them every once and a while. And in this situation that wouldn't be a bad thing, would it? :

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elisent* 
I think most of those could be poor parenting choices and/or caused from low income.

Being poor is not a reason for a child to go without dental, especially when they are on medi-cal!


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## elisent (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *basje* 
Wow, you just described the condition of my step-sister's kids who is also a meth addict. Which is why I know a little about the CPS stuff here. It takes three different phone reports before CPS will even follow up on a case of neglect. Even with the cuts to state health-care dental for children is covered, so there isn't an excuse for the teeth. Call and report it. If it's the third report that's been made against the parents CPS will investigate. It takes a lot of parents to loose custody of kids in California likely if the parents fix the situation there isn't anything that the state can do but check up on them every once and a while. And in this situation that wouldn't be a bad thing, would it? :

Being poor is not a reason for a child to go without dental, especially when they are on medi-cal!


I said MOST, and that I was really concerned about the dental.

And I asked if the child was on medicaid or not because it hadn't been stated at that point.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

I would say yes but part of it also seems to be "bad parenting". we all have different standard of how we like to raise our kids. This would in opinion qualify as a neglected child.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

1. teeth are neglectful -- hair and nails get over it.
2. my children have gone though those phases. I think that is part of being seven and now 9
3. that would bother me. It sounds like he might be depressed or have other social issues. It might not be neglect.
4. Uniforms required by public schools are quaisy legal. They have to help provide them. This isn't necessarily neglect. Having no cloths at all would be. Many times these "required" uniforms are not "required" just strongly encouraged by the public school. This was a huge issue this summer becuase of a local public elementry school trying to say they were required. They did a lot of back peddling when a parent who is a laywer starting questing the wording.
5. this one maybe neglect........but look into your state laws. Also try to get him on a scale.
6. This is you being completely judgement and totally not understanding bedwetting. I wetted until I was 9-10 years old and would choose not to have your judgement or shame.
7. I personally have issues with the horror movies but that is parental choice that isn't neglect. My youngest child had nightlights/bathroom lights on at 7. Actually she is 9 and still perfers a light on a night, she isn't allowed horror flicks.
8. this gets an eye roll---again parenting choice.


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## justKate (Jun 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom* 
6. This is you being completely judgement and totally not understanding bedwetting. I wetted until I was 9-10 years old and would choose not to have your judgement or shame.

I think you misunderstood. My problem is that his normal kid behaviors are either being completely ignored or handled inappropriately. I posted this clarification on the first page:

Quote:

The wetting the bed only bothers me because of the Gparents attitude towards it--"go take a shower and don't forget to put on your diaper." That sort of thing. And caffine before bed. No encouragement whatsoever. But I know it is also a biological issue--Huz (his uncle) had bladder control issues until he was 12 or so.
Huz and I talked about it for a long time last night. We agreed (thanks to your advice) that a lot of what I'm seeing as problems are just my SIL's parenting choices. The dental care is the one thing most people seem to think should be addressed, so we are going to have a serious talk with the Gparents on Saturday (just before they leave to go home) about getting him to a dentist.

I learned that they do have a CPS case worker, so provided we can make some progress with the dentist through the Gparents, I'm going to leave the rest alone for now.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

moved to Parenting


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## Fujiko (Nov 11, 2006)

Just to clarify, Kate, "encouraging" someone to get over bedwetting is usually as effective as "encouraging" someone to get over their cancer or infertility or any other biological problem. I think they are handling that part just fine.








to you. What a hard thing for your family to be going through.


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## justKate (Jun 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fujiko* 
Just to clarify, Kate, "encouraging" someone to get over bedwetting is usually as effective as "encouraging" someone to get over their cancer or infertility or any other biological problem. I think they are handling that part just fine.








to you. What a hard thing for your family to be going through.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be insensitive. That part is not something I've been through yet. Please excuse my ignorance...


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## Fujiko (Nov 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *justKate* 
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be insensitive. That part is not something I've been through yet. Please excuse my ignorance...









It's alright. It's a common misconception.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Why not just ask his grandparents if he's been to the dentist? I am rather surprised that he's in public school, and has also been in foster care -- but has rotting teeth that none of these professionals (or the trained foster parents) have ever noticed?

This makes me wonder if maybe he has been getting dental care but there are discolorations (they can look pretty bad)?

My younger dd for some reason developed decay in quite a few of her baby teeth, in spite of us giving her teeth the same care we gave her sister's. And dental work ended up having to be delayed a couple of times, due to her running a fever right before it was scheduled, and them not being able to fit her in again for another 3 months (we have medicaid, and there's always a long wait).

One tooth became abcessed during this time, and we had to rush her in for emergency care and get it pulled. And I was told that the abcess might have possibly caused discoloration in the underlying permanent tooth.

If this happens there is bleaching we could do, or also the possibility of capping it, and I'm thinking I'd lean toward capping rather than bleaching -- but there would probably be a period of time where it would just be discolored while we set aside money for the procedure, etcetera, since it's cosmetic so not covered by medicaid.

So in the meantime it might look like we were neglecting her teeth. I'd sure hope that if anyone noticed and had concerns during this time, they'd ask us about it and not just automatically report us for child abuse.

By the way, doesn't medicaid in CA cover dental care for children? Ours does here in MO -- and I mean 100% coverage, and if our children qualify for 100% coverage even with dh working fulltime, then I'd be very surprised if this mom couldn't get her child covered, too. Or are there huge differences between CA and MO medicaid?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *justKate* 
I think you misunderstood. My problem is that his normal kid behaviors are either being completely ignored or handled inappropriately.

Well, when it comes to the wetting issue, I guess some would say (have said) that I was ignoring it and not handling it appropriately. Because my younger daughter didn't become consistently interested in using the toilet 'til just recently, at almost 4 1/2.

Reminding and "encouraging" tended to make her NOT want to go for some reason.

Even though I know I've never pushed her on this, for some reason she would be resistant to gentle suggestions, so I just diapered her and didn't say much about the potty, and then one day she just decided she was done with diapers and wanted to wear panties, and started using the potty on her own.

I'm not sure if this is what's happenig in the situation you're talking about -- but just wanted to point out that sometimes a parent who seems lax and unconcerned to outsiders, is really doing what's best based on their knowledge of their child.

And I sure have had a couple of people accusing me of not "encouraging" my children enough regarding the potty -- but both trained relatively quickly once they decided it was time. Maybe I AM lazy -- but my laid-back approach has worked out just great for us.









We haven't had much incidence of night wetting -- but both my girls seem to have large bladders, to the point where they usually stayed dry all night from infancy. I've certainly known of other children to be night wetters all throughout childhood, so I would think if he's using the toilet all day and only wetting at night, then he seems to still be within the range of normal for 7yo boys.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

The only thing on there I'm sure would constitute neglect is the state of his teeth. That's bad news, with potentially life-threatening ramifications, and qualifies as medical neglect.

The rest? I don't think there's any one thing on that list that would be considered neglect in a legal/CPS sense...but the overall scenario sounds pretty bad.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
The only thing on there I'm sure would constitute neglect is the state of his teeth. That's bad news, with potentially life-threatening ramifications, and qualifies as medical neglect.

The rest? I don't think there's any one thing on that list that would be considered neglect in a legal/CPS sense...but the overall scenario sounds pretty bad.

This. ITA - it's not one of those things (except for the teeth) that = neglect per se - but the OP is describing an overall picture that to me, sounds like a neglected child.

As for CPS, removal is the last choice, not the go-to option. If they get involved, they'd likely assign a case-worker to visit and follow up to be sure that his teeth are being addressed and that he's generally being cared for. Also, in these situations, parenting classes would probably be part of the plan - and it sounds like they would be useful in this case.


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## darkearth (Apr 13, 2006)

Many people do not think it is a big deal if baby teeth rot out. They have never been educated about how this can affect the adult teeth. I suggest you just try bringing it up. My first thought was that cost was an issue, but if he's on Medi-Cal, then I think it's more likely that his caregivers simply do not understand that healthy milk teeth *are* important, even though they just fall out in the end anyway.









_- Mother of children with uncut hair and fingernails._


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Are they his milk teeth? The OP didn't specify and most 7 year olds I've known have at least a few of their adult teeth. I assumed that at least some of the teeth in question were adult teeth...not that having the "milk teeth" rotting out is okay, either.


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## NettleTea (Aug 16, 2007)

I think the source of concern here is not individual items in that last, but ALL of them put together. One or two things from that list alone would not alarm me. But ALL of them together are rather disturbing.

Bed wetting is not necessarily alarming. But calling his pull-ups a "diaper" is a little demeaning. And the OP did make it clear that her concern was how he was being treated about it.
There is nothing wrong with long hair and nails. But if the source of it is from neglecting the child then I do think there is a problem with it. It is all in the root of the problems, the intentions behind most of the things on that list. That is the cause for alarm. Not one or two seemingly harmless things that might also be seen in a caring family.

OP, I think that all of those different things existing together and the reasons behind them is a cause for concern. That doesn't mean that calling CPS first chance is the thing to do. But it seems you've already devised a plan that is wise. Good luck to you and your nephew.


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## darkearth (Apr 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Are they his milk teeth? The OP didn't specify and most 7 year olds I've known have at least a few of their adult teeth. I assumed that at least some of the teeth in question were adult teeth...not that having the "milk teeth" rotting out is okay, either.

Maybe. I hope for the best though.


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## sprouthead (Jul 14, 2007)

Also remember that this child has a drug-addicted mother and has already been in foster placements. These conditions can influence the creation the scenarios that the OP posted, so it's not necessarily that the child is being neglected now, but has some behaviors/nasty teeth from conditions prior..


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## justKate (Jun 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *possum* 
He may very well be neglected, and I don't envy your position as someone who might need to do something about it.
However, not all those things are only observed in children who are neglected.
My well-cared for 2.5 year old has ECC. He has had more dental visits and treatments than any other child his age I know and gets his teeth brushed 2x/day (more than any kid I know IRL). (In fact, moms on this forum have accused me and other moms like me who have to brush LOs teeth against their desires abusive. If I didn't other people would call me neglectful.







) *There are lots of loving moms who ate well prenatally, BF their kids, provide good dental home care and still have kids who end up with ECC; check out the dental forum.*

*possum*, thanks for bringing that up--I'd never heard of ECC but that does sound like it could be the problem.

We asked his grandma last night whether he had been to a dentist. She said that his mom took him "a while back" (which probably means a couple of years ago) and the dentist said "his teeth were rotting from the gums." And that's all the information I could get out of her. So maybe that is ECC?

We've asked Gma to take him to the dentist when they get home to get more information and see what (if anything) can be done for him. I'm off to lurk in the dental forum....


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## lovemybubus (Oct 2, 2007)

IMO, this child is being neglected. Here's what I have observed:
1) He has a mouth full of rotten teeth. Several are black and cracked. His hair and nails are uncut.
_We have friends that are very AP and their daughter has a mouth full of cavities. My son's hair is almost down to his lower back and often his nails are not only uncut but have dirt underneath. They grow quickly and by the time I notice them they are very long and I cut them. No big deal._

2) If you reprimand him gently, ex: "Oops, you dropped your scrabble letters. Let's pick them up," he runs away and sulks.
_Maybe he's very sensitive?? My dd gets hurt at the slightest mention of her making a mistake and nobody has ever laid a hand on her. Dh and I know how to talk to her but if someone she barely knew (you haven't seen him in years) said something like that to her she would feel embarrassed, I guarantee it---she is so sensitive._

3) He does absolutely nothing except attend school (usually) and watch TV. No activities, games with Gparents, outside play, friends, nothing.
_Hate to break it to you but that it is a lot of American children (not saying it's right) but not nessacarily neglect. Maybe the gp's aren't very creative about play?_

4) He does not have uniform clothes (as required by his public school).
_Probably an economic issue_

5) He rides in the front seat of the car and is maybe 4 ft. tall and very thin. Hasn't been in a booster for years.
_They probably just don't know better, have you told them he needs to be in a booster?_
6) He wets the bed regularly and no one is helping him with it. They put him in pull-ups at night.
_Better than screaming at him and beating him for it--that's for sure. What would be your suggestions on how to deal with that. Maybe share some insight with them. I for one have not had to deal with this--I would not know what to do either. Here's what I would most likely do: post here. The gp's know only one way and have no ideas how to get other input like we moms with the internet._

7) He watches horror movies in the evenings (which might be related to the bed wetting) and has to sleep with the lights on.
_Being afraid of the dark is a very real thing, I am too. Both my kids like the light on if they go to bed before dh and I. I leave it on for them. The dark can be scary. As far as horror movies...maybe gp's are out of touch with what he's watching, not an ideal situation but not neglect._

8) He sleeps with a dog, even though he has severe allergies for which he takes medication.
_He's on medication, right? Don't take the dog away or even imply it. A child's attachment to a dog (especially in a shaky environment) can be very strong. The dog needs to stay. He's not severely ill, is he? Doesn't sound like it to me. I had a very tough childhood and if someone thought they were helping me by taking away one of my strongest attachments (my pets) I would have lost hope in the world_

IMHO, you mean well but the best thing you could do is lovingly communicate your concerns with the gp's. They need to feel that this is coming from a place of love, not judgement. People aren't perfect, but that's not a solid enough reason to remove their child.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

1) He has a mouth full of rotten teeth. Several are black and cracked. His hair and nails are uncut.
*
He needs to see a dentist. Perhaps you could offer to help find a good pediatric dentist who accepts medicaid. I knw for me even with medicaid it was hard to find a dentist who would accept it. I wouldn't worry about the hair and nails. unless he is asking for them to be cut, this may be his preference.*

2) If you reprimand him gently, ex: "Oops, you dropped your scrabble letters. Let's pick them up," he runs away and sulks.

*this seems odd but I have one child who tends to be like this. Its just her personality. She hates to be corrected.*

3) He does absolutely nothing except attend school (usually) and watch TV. No activities, games with Gparents, outside play, friends, nothing.

*this is neither neglect nor unusual. Besides do you really know that he never ever plays with his friends? My children will tell you in a fit of self pity that they never get to leave their room and never play with anyone because they don't have any friends and that I never do anything fun with them. what they really mean is I made them clean their room or do their homework before we do those things..*

4) He does not have uniform clothes (as required by his public school).

*This is an issue but if the family cannot afford them then they cannot afford them. there has got to be some program that can get him the clothes. Surely the school has noticed this. what are THEY doing about it? You could offer to get a couple of uniformas for him if you want. maybe as a Christmas present.*

5) He rides in the front seat of the car and is maybe 4 ft. tall and very thin. Hasn't been in a booster for years.

*this is a parenting decision and probably most 8 year olds ride in the front seat. hardle neglect.*

6) He wets the bed regularly and no one is helping him with it. They put him in pull-ups at night.

*lots of kids regularly wet the bes at this age. its not because they are screwed up.*

7) He watches horror movies in the evenings and has to sleep with the lights on.

*this is not a choice I wouild make for my family but is also very very common. both the mivie and perhaps the light. my kids do not sleep with the night on but need a good amount of light in their room.*

8) He sleeps with a dog, even though he has severe allergies for which he takes medication.
*
I have allergies and have a dog. she used to sleep in my bed with me. my kids may or may not be allergic. they have other allergies. I wouldn't dream of taking their dog away from them. dog sleeps with the girls. it is such a sweet thing for them.*


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

have you asked the gparents if he has seen a dentist recently or are you assuming he hasnt seen one? just checking.


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## leighi123 (Nov 14, 2007)

Sounds a lot like my ex's little brother, he had ALL of the same things you discribed (and he was 12), as well as a really hard time with school.

We did call CPS and my then husband and I got temporary custody of the kids (12yr old and 8yr old girl), and we were only 19 at the time! They told us the meth use alone was enough to take the kids from their parents b/c they couldnt take care of the kids properly (their house a mess, moved all the time b/c they couldnt pay rent taking the kids out of school each time, the kids lived on rice and hot dogs, didnt have beds to sleep in - it was crazy!)


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## justKate (Jun 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
have you asked the gparents if he has seen a dentist recently or are you assuming he hasnt seen one? just checking.


Yep, earlier today:

Quote:

possum, thanks for bringing that up--I'd never heard of ECC but that does sound like it could be the problem.

We asked his grandma last night whether he had been to a dentist. She said that his mom took him "a while back" (which probably means a couple of years ago) and the dentist said "his teeth were rotting from the gums." And that's all the information I could get out of her. So maybe that is ECC?

We've asked Gma to take him to the dentist when they get home to get more information and see what (if anything) can be done for him. I'm off to lurk in the dental forum....


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## mamadebug (Dec 28, 2006)

While some of these issues, when viewed alone, may seem like parenting choices, the underlying issue of having a parent who is a meth addict is a standalone reason to report to CPS. I am not a big fan of reporting to CPS, but there are times when it is the better option.


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## Zevy (Apr 20, 2009)

I have to agree with a few of the other posters. One by one, they may not be signs of neglect. Sure we can give examples of other children with the same problems individually, whether it is dental, uniform, bedwetting, etc. And I can see some people feeling a little defensive because their child (or someone they know) has had similar problems.

*But this is all in ONE CHILD. AT THE SAME TIME. It paints a different picture.*

And this is just all that has been seen in one weekend.

Given THAT information, I would call cps. You can explain away one or perhaps two of the behaviors, but when all of them are together, witness together in such a short amount of time, AND given the fact that we know about the meth addiction, it definitely raises some causes for concern.


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## prairiebird (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Zevy* 
I have to agree with a few of the other posters. One by one, they may not be signs of neglect. Sure we can give examples of other children with the same problems individually, whether it is dental, uniform, bedwetting, etc. And I can see some people feeling a little defensive because their child (or someone they know) has had similar problems.

*But this is all in ONE CHILD. AT THE SAME TIME. It paints a different picture.*

And this is just all that has been seen in one weekend.

Given THAT information, I would call cps. You can explain away one or perhaps two of the behaviors, but when all of them are together, witness together in such a short amount of time, AND given the fact that we know about the meth addiction, it definitely raises some causes for concern.

This is kind of what I am leaning toward too. And it's really hard for me to say that because if someone looked at my 9 year old, for example, they'd see a shaggy haired kid who is often dirty with a few rotting teeth. On appearance, it looks bad, but the reality is that he has defect that causes lack of enamel and he goes in every few months for one treatment at a time. His hair is shaggy and (IMO looks like crap) because he currently wants to look like Harry Potter and will get over the phase eventually. He is dirty because he currently digs for dinosaur bones every chance he gets. (and I don't have the heart to tell him that he's not going to find them in our state.)

However, the fact that there is a history here of neglect might mean that the child's hair is uncut, not because of his choice, but because no one wants to take him to get his hair cut or cut his nails. He might still be wetting because of stress. His teeth might be rotting because he's not recieving dental care. Even with the Medicaid, you actually have to get off your butt and schedule your child and take them to the appointment.

I hate jumping to conclusions and I'm not a big fan of interfering in families. But I also don't want to see a child suffer, you know? I'm glad you didn't see big, obvious bruises on him. So that is a plus. But there are other things that might be going on. And while some of them are just crummy parenting choices, I'd be a bit concerned on how that child was feeling. I'm sorry you have to even consider this.


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## dawncayden (Jan 24, 2006)

I'd call.


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## mija y mijo (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Zevy* 
I have to agree with a few of the other posters. One by one, they may not be signs of neglect. Sure we can give examples of other children with the same problems individually, whether it is dental, uniform, bedwetting, etc. And I can see some people feeling a little defensive because their child (or someone they know) has had similar problems.

*But this is all in ONE CHILD. AT THE SAME TIME. It paints a different picture.*

And this is just all that has been seen in one weekend.

Given THAT information, I would call cps. You can explain away one or perhaps two of the behaviors, but when all of them are together, witness together in such a short amount of time, AND given the fact that we know about the meth addiction, it definitely raises some causes for concern.

I totally agree. I'd call CPS and ask to speak with their caseworker and voice your concern.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

Yeah, all these things together, to me, suggest a child who is not being given the care and attention he needs.

When they take away a child because of a filthy house, it has to be really filthy, as in a health hazard. That's a type of neglect too, which I think is characteristic of meth addiction.


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