# Expired Carseats - links needed



## Mosaic (Jun 20, 2005)

Long story short, we bought our Graco infant seats secondhand (before I learned better), and am discussing replacing them for LO2 due in 2 months. We have 2 seats, manufactured in 2001 and 2002 if memory serves correctly, though they may be as "new" as 2004.

DH will believe the "expiration date" if I can show him the research that indicates the older seats are *unsafe*. (and the oft-posted youtube video doesn't count.) I've done a search and found threads referencing wearing/degrading plastic and other components; but I didn't see any links, plus my recent googling indicated this is generally NOT a concern for seats under 10 years old.

I've also heard some statements indicating that manufacturers include an expiration date in part because federal standards change, but I haven't been able to find out how regulations may have changed in recent years.

So, geniuses and google-masters of MDC, help me please!


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

I'm interested in this, too. My car seat is from 2003 and I REALLY liked it. It has 2 bases that are easy to install and 1 seat. I'm due in a month and I want to know if I'll be able to use the seat. I've heard rumors that the hospital will look for expiration dates or something and if you don't have one they won't let you take the baby home.


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

What happens at each hospital varies tremendously, some do check for expiration dates!

As far as proof your husband will accept, what are you interested in?

Car seats have expirations for several reasons, some of which you sited. The biggest reason they are unsafe is because the plastic degrades and becomes unsafe over time, that is the cause of that youtube video, where the straps rip out of the harness. Seats are only tested to work over a certain period of time, manufactures cannot guarantee how they will perform after that point. Crash test standards and requirements change over time, so older seats may not meet the newer requirements. Crash data is used to upgrade the seats as time goes along, so your seats might have older design flaws that have since been corrected to increase performance. There might also have been a recall, so be sure to check the recall status if you do decide to go ahead and use the seat.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Association and all car seat manufacturers agree that there should be expirations, to protect the safety of the occupants of the restraint. Every manufacture has a statement of some sort that says they expire at X date and should not be used past that date. Britax's, for instance, can be found here http://www.britaxusa.com/customer-se...ible-car-seats

I can find you proof, but I need to know what would count, like for my engineer DH, it's crash tests, where for someone else it might be the NHTSA policy, you know?


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)




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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

The OP had indicated that the crash test video doesn't "count" to her DH in terms of what is unsafe about expired seats. I was looking for a clearer answer of what he wanted as proof, to find some solid links.


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## Mosaic (Jun 20, 2005)

I think that he would view the youtube video as too isolated... Studies or recommendations from reputable sources, specifically indicating how/why older seats are unsafe. He cites that a lot of things that were "safe" before suddenly became "unsafe", or that some products which never used to carry an expiration date now do, even though the product itself hasn't changed. We know that some of this is due to advances in science and knowledge and some seems to be mostly marketing or "best performance" preferences but are not safety driven (like expiration dates on soda). I found a quote online (trying to find the link again) where I believe a Graco rep said that the plastic is rated to last at least 10 years. Then I did see one site that suggested maybe cars have changed, so the older seats don't fit as well into newer cars (and of course fit/proper installation is imperative to safety).

Independent policy recommendations would be helpful, but crash test results may speak more loudly. No offense to youtube video fans; I just know my DH would consider that fear mongering or not representative of all carseats.


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## umsami (Dec 1, 2003)

This article is interesting...
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/11/bu...erland&emc=rss

Quote:

That is not because of danger that the plastic is degenerating, said David Galambos, compliance and safety manager for child safety systems with Graco, a unit of Newell Rubbermaid.

"It's not as if you'll hit the expiration date and the plastic will become weak," he said. "The plastic is good for at least 10 years. But regulations and standards are constantly changing."


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

Not a study, but a link to the Safe Kids recommendations

The executive study for the TREAD act part of Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards update in 2000 designed to improve the safety of child restraints, increase side impact protection. The TREAD Act didn't go into effect until 2002 and a year was allowed for the new rules to be made, this means that seats made from 2003 and before may not meet current standards.

And then in 2002 the new FMVSS laws regarding LATCH went into effect, this did effect design of seats to vehicles and of course, the whole LATCH system would not be present on seats before then.

Seats that are expired are also not continued to be studied for potential recall issues, so if something was happening, and the manufacture changed it in 2004, you would have no way of knowing that.

I'll keep looking but I'm not finding a good study right now from any of the big crash test facilities- IIHS, UMTRI, etc. It's hard to find good studies or "proof" because NHTSA, the Juvenile Product Manufacture Association and all manufactures of child restraints agree that expiration dates are critical due to the degradation of plastic and the changing laws. With all the main players in agreeance, there would be no real reason to fund a study. I've seen crashed seats fail at labs, it's clear, it happens. No, it's not a magic 6 year mark, that certainly err on the side of caution, but somewhere between 6 and 10 years, you start to see degradation, and by 10 years they are failing at a regular basis in crash testing.

My usual comment to the "they just want to sell more stuff" line is that car seats are the only infant/toddler product required by law. They don't need more help selling them, you HAVE to have one. It's the law!


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *umsami* 
This article is interesting...
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/11/bu...erland&emc=rss

That statement was later retracted, I'm trying to find the link but my kids don't want me online tonight









Although, I do agree on the whole, 6 years is conservative because degradation that causes failure is seen at 10 years. Does that mean a seat that is 8 years old is safe? Maybe, but maybe not! And when new seats are available at low cost or free from Safe Kids/Health Dept/etc. or can be found for $50 at Wal-Mart, I just don't see why it's worth the gamble?


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## snoopy5386 (May 6, 2005)

how bout the fact that your insurance company (both auto and health) might not cover any injuries sustained in an accident using an expired seat?

Can't you have him call Graco and ask them himself?


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## MadiMamacita (Jan 29, 2006)

I got into an argument with the owner of a children's resale shop about this. He was rolling his eyes and saying that "anyone who believes this rubbish about expiration dates is stupider than I thought". I tried to explain to him about the degrading of the plastic and the extreme temps in cars.. he said, and I quote because this was priceless.. "Well if plastic bio-degrades so easily and quickly, what is everyone crying about the landfills for?"
I'm going to be following these links, printing them out, and spamming his store with them.

I think he's just upset about not being able to sell as many old carseats


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## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MadiMamacita* 
I got into an argument with the owner of a children's resale shop about this. He was rolling his eyes and saying that "anyone who believes this rubbish about expiration dates is stupider than I thought". I tried to explain to him about the degrading of the plastic and the extreme temps in cars.. he said, and I quote because this was priceless.. *"Well if plastic bio-degrades so easily and quickly, what is everyone crying about the landfills for?"*
I'm going to be following these links, printing them out, and spamming his store with them.

I think he's just upset about not being able to sell as many old carseats :roll

Because trash is buried away from air and sunlight, two things which are essential for biodegrading. Hasn't this guy ever had plastics discolor in the shop window or plastic toys turn brittle and break? The steering wheel or dash of his car get discolored?


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## umsami (Dec 1, 2003)

I'd love to see the retraction, although having worked for a Fortune 50 company in marketing--my guess is that any retraction was marketing driven, and has nothing to do with facts. The guy seems quite confident in his statements--also, his claim that all of the manufacturers agreed upon similar expiration dates make me think a similar thing. I can totally see the PR/marketing folks getting down his throat and pressuring him to recant.

Quote:

"But, he acknowledged, the seven-year date builds in a pretty hefty buffer zone.

"*We're not seeing any disintegration until a minimum of 10 years,*" he said.

In a survey, other major manufacturers, including Cosco, EvenFlo and Safety First, *all agreed upon similar expiration dates, Mr. Galambos said.*

*Despite rumors that float around the playground and the Web, extreme weather has no impact on the life of a car seat, Mr. Galambos said.*"
Would I buy a used seat and use it past expiration date? No... I wouldn't buy a used seat as you never know about accidents regardless. Do I think parents should be brainless and not check straps, etc. for wear and tear? No. But this guy, whose job is to oversee safety at Graco, makes some pretty compelling arguments that under 10 years means very little likelihood of plastic disintegration.

Even Graco's website on the issue is pretty mild, IMHO... if it was truly a safety issue... http://www.gracobaby.com/CustomerSer...atID=2&FaqId=7

Quote:

Does my car seat have a useful life?
Answer: Car seats have a suggested useful life that that is identified on the car seat as follows: "Do Not Use After December 20xx". With changes in regulation, changes in vehicles, new technology and other factors including general wear and tear of a car seat, we recommend that a car seat be replaced on or before reaching the "Do Not Use After" date.
Once again, sounds more like marketing, rather than safety. If it was truly about safety, the statement would be a lot stronger IMHO.


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## Mosaic (Jun 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *snoopy5386* 
how bout the fact that your insurance company (both auto and health) might not cover any injuries sustained in an accident using an expired seat?

DH works in insurance, and both health and auto insurance would still apply. Regardless, we want our decision to be based on safety and not on technicalities of laws or policy coverage.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *umsami* 
I'd love to see the retraction, although having worked for a Fortune 50 company in marketing--my guess is that any retraction was marketing driven, and has nothing to do with facts. The guy seems quite confident in his statements--also, his claim that all of the manufacturers agreed upon similar expiration dates make me think a similar thing. I can totally see the PR/marketing folks getting down his throat and pressuring him to recant.

Would I buy a used seat and use it past expiration date? No... I wouldn't buy a used seat as you never know about accidents regardless. Do I think parents should be brainless and not check straps, etc. for wear and tear? No. But this guy, whose job is to oversee safety at Graco, makes some pretty compelling arguments that under 10 years means very little likelihood of plastic disintegration.

Even Graco's website on the issue is pretty mild, IMHO... if it was truly a safety issue... http://www.gracobaby.com/CustomerSer...atID=2&FaqId=7

Once again, sounds more like marketing, rather than safety. If it was truly about safety, the statement would be a lot stronger IMHO.

That was my take on it as well. It seems like if this were a well-known safety issue or if regulations had changed substantially, it would be a LOT easier to dig up studies or "proof", you know? Or even if there were no proof but only reasonable questions about safety, so these recommendations were precautionary pending future studies, well, I'd take that too. But so far I'm coming up empty.


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## jeminijad (Mar 27, 2009)

Does your husband never, ever spend $100 on something that is important to him? If you feel that there is any question about the safety of the seat in a collision, I feel that the onus is on _him_ to prove to you that you should ignore your gut feeling and the industry standard of 6 year expirations on car seats.

That said, I doubt you are going to find what you are looking for. Many manufacturers that slap a 6 year expiration date on their US product do not on their European seats... there was a thread a while back about an MDC member calling Britax UK and being told that their products didn't expire! I am not advocating using old seats, and it is an important decision, but it isn't one that is likely to easily show clear cut data in studies.

And who is going to fund the studies, anyway? Studies are most often paid for by a group/corporation that stands to profit from the results. No big companies or athorities stand to profit from keeping baby buckets around an extra year or two!


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## Mosaic (Jun 20, 2005)

To be honest, I think he's right: If something was assumed to be safe for many years, and then they change the guidelines to call something unsafe, I think it's reasonable to expect they would have some reason to do so, or why "6 years" was chosen, etc. Even manufacturers, who could absolutely profit if everyone bought new seats every 5 years or so, haven't jumped on the bandwagon in a major way... it just makes me wonder why.

As another example, we have a drop-side crib. In 2006 it was top-rated for safety, it was not affected by the recent recalls, and we assembled it and used it according to manufacturers specifications. But if the new standards come out in the next 6 weeks before the baby is born, or even 1 month AFTER the baby is born, saying no more drop-side cribs, does that mean that we need to run out and buy a brand new crib immediately because this one is a death trap?

Here at least I know and can find documented safety issues with dropside cribs, so I can understand the motivation behind the change in standards. But for car seats, the general consensus is that there have been no real studies in this issue, just that somehow a 6-year "standard" was agreed upon by... someone, and that's what we should trust from now on?

I swear that I'm not trying to be difficult!







I'm just so surprised that this is the agreed upon standard, but no one knows how or why it was developed.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mosaic* 
To be honest, I think he's right: If something was assumed to be safe for many years, and then they change the guidelines to call something unsafe, I think it's reasonable to expect they would have some reason to do so, or why "6 years" was chosen, etc. Even manufacturers, who could absolutely profit if everyone bought new seats every 5 years or so, haven't jumped on the bandwagon in a major way... it just makes me wonder why.

As another example, we have a drop-side crib. In 2006 it was top-rated for safety, it was not affected by the recent recalls, and we assembled it and used it according to manufacturers specifications. But if the new standards come out in the next 6 weeks before the baby is born, or even 1 month AFTER the baby is born, saying no more drop-side cribs, does that mean that we need to run out and buy a brand new crib immediately because this one is a death trap?

Here at least I know and can find documented safety issues with dropside cribs, so I can understand the motivation behind the change in standards. But for car seats, the general consensus is that there have been no real studies in this issue, just that somehow a 6-year "standard" was agreed upon by... someone, and that's what we should trust from now on?

I swear that I'm not trying to be difficult!







I'm just so surprised that this is the agreed upon standard, but no one knows how or why it was developed.

But, I'm not going to use my child as a crash test dummy to see if in fact my 8yo car seat that expired 2 years ago is ok to keep using. Really, it doesn't hurt me much to replace every 6 years or so, and if my child were in an expired seat that failed in a crash I don't think I could forgive myself for not buying a new one when I should have.


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## umsami (Dec 1, 2003)

Sorry, but I don't think it's as simple as "not buying a new car seat" means you want your child to be a crash test dummy. Especially as there is conflicting data. If there has been no documentation of plastics degrading before 10 years, then why is a Mom a "bad Mom" who uses a car seat that is 8 years old? Are you also a bad Mom if your car is less than two years old? Because cars keep getting safer too. Maybe you're a bad Mom if you fail to have the latest Volvo with automatic braking technology?

It's much more complicated than that, and you can have the latest greatest infant seat out there...and that doesn't mean that your child will be any safer than the Mom's kid who is in a 6 or 7 year old seat. Why???

There are so many factors out there.

As the recent (maybe last year) car seat safety tests showed... having a new seat is no guarantee of having a safe seat. How did the seat you are using do in the infant seat tests? http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/health/6286804.html

What sort of spacing is there between the front seat and the back of your infant seat. Does your seat really fit your car? Does your seat really fit your child?

Whose driving? Something like 25% of all child (<14) fatalities in car accidents are due to alcohol.

Are you driving a car or a truck? Car seats reduce fatalities by 71% in cars, but only 58% in light trucks.

As it is, most parents still install car seats incorrectly (last figure I saw was 80%).

Let's also remember that 9,000 babies each year receive injuries from car seats outside of cars.... so keep your car seats in the car.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Whenever products are developed, tests of the material are used to determine something called the bathtub curve for that product.

It's a predictor of failure. It determines many things for companies: the length of their warranties on any particular product, when they should set the product expiration should it have one, etc. The length of the warranty and the expiration date will be set to be a particular length of time towards the end of the low failure period, to limit their liabilities. That means yes, there will be a period of time when the product is most likely still in low failure period, before it hits the increasing number of failures period but it is not under warranty or has already expired.

Thing is, companies are under no obligation to tell us the length of time between when they've set their expiration, and the product enters into the increasing number of failures period. And, there's a decent possibility that any particular instance of a product will last and function fine for years even after its lifespan has entered into that increasing number of failures period.

For an example that's pretty easy . . . let's talk about computer hard drives. Generally they either fail in the first couple of months, or after a certain number of years. That means that the typical household which has a few computers, is generally going to see a hard drive failure every couple of years, with risk increasing as your computers/hard drive age.

But a server/file farm, which has thousands upon thousands of hard drives, often sees a hard drive failure every few days. That's part of life in a data center: even though the chance of failure on any particular hard drive is low, the overall chance of failure for hard drives across the entire data center is high enough that they are expected to happen frequently.

So, expired car seats. Chances are, your individual risk of failure when using an expired car seat is low, but steadily increasing over the number of years you use the expired car seat. If there are still millions of expired car seats in use, failures will start to occur across the population once the material enters its increasing number of failures period. And that's why the individual manufacturers would want there _not_ to be millions of expired car seats in use across a population.

The question you have to ask yourself, especially not knowing the outcome of material tests on the plastics used to make car seats, is how long you think that additional time is before the car seat material enters its increasing rate of failure period, and whether the risk is worth the savings.


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

So they are second hand AND expired? See to me that is a deal breaker. Expired and you have no idea if they were ever in an accident right? That is what would worry me more then statistics about plastic degrading.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *betsyj* 
So they are second hand AND expired? See to me that is a deal breaker. Expired and you have no idea if they were ever in an accident right? That is what would worry me more then statistics about plastic degrading.


That's what I was thinking.

Why take the chance? Can't you get a Scenera for like $40, or a cheap, new infant seat for slightly more than that? I mean, if it were used for the majority of the first year, that would be a few bucks a month spent on a child safety device that is used regularly - people spend more than that in one day on coffee or eating lunch out.


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## Sharon RN (Sep 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cschick* 
Whenever products are developed, tests of the material are used to determine something called the bathtub curve for that product.

It's a predictor of failure. It determines many things for companies: the length of their warranties on any particular product, when they should set the product expiration should it have one, etc. The length of the warranty and the expiration date will be set to be a particular length of time towards the end of the low failure period, to limit their liabilities. That means yes, there will be a period of time when the product is most likely still in low failure period, before it hits the increasing number of failures period but it is not under warranty or has already expired.

Thing is, companies are under no obligation to tell us the length of time between when they've set their expiration, and the product enters into the increasing number of failures period. And, there's a decent possibility that any particular instance of a product will last and function fine for years even after its lifespan has entered into that increasing number of failures period.

For an example that's pretty easy . . . let's talk about computer hard drives. Generally they either fail in the first couple of months, or after a certain number of years. That means that the typical household which has a few computers, is generally going to see a hard drive failure every couple of years, with risk increasing as your computers/hard drive age.

But a server/file farm, which has thousands upon thousands of hard drives, often sees a hard drive failure every few days. That's part of life in a data center: even though the chance of failure on any particular hard drive is low, the overall chance of failure for hard drives across the entire data center is high enough that they are expected to happen frequently.

So, expired car seats. Chances are, your individual risk of failure when using an expired car seat is low, but steadily increasing over the number of years you use the expired car seat. If there are still millions of expired car seats in use, failures will start to occur across the population once the material enters its increasing number of failures period. And that's why the individual manufacturers would want there _not_ to be millions of expired car seats in use across a population.

The question you have to ask yourself, especially not knowing the outcome of material tests on the plastics used to make car seats, is how long you think that additional time is before the car seat material enters its increasing rate of failure period, and whether the risk is worth the savings.

CS, what a wonderful post! Very interesting. I'm going to file this under the things I learned today while perusing MDC!

As for the carseat question- yes, I'd probably get a new one. No, I don't think you're going to find any studies to show your husband. I don't believe that an expired car seat (or even an expired second hand seat) is a death trap, but for something as important as car seat safety, I'm inclined to go with the latest and greatest, IYKWIM.

Good luck on your decision!


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## Mosaic (Jun 20, 2005)

Thanks to you all! CS, the hard drive example was particularly helpful for me as I've BTDT with the heartbreak of (several) dead drives. I suppose that like drives, the mantra for carseats should be "All car seats WILL fail. It's only a question of when."

To give an update, ultimately we did NOT find any compelling research or information indicating that carseats 6-10 years old are unsafe. Nothing, nada, zip, zilch.

However, we dug the seat out of the attic and it was clearly labeled with a 02/2002 DOM and "DO NOT USE AFTER December 2008" (interesting... over 6.75 years). AND not only is it secondhand, but it apparently spent 2/3 of its useful life in someone else's hands, not ours.

So yeah, we're replacing it.









So now I need to read the whole forum and figure out what to get since I obviously chose poorly the first time around!







Thanks all for the input.


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