# Would you ever use this sleep technique?



## Oklahoma Mama (Feb 12, 2003)

I would like opinions on what you think of this sleep technique. Have nursing/cuddle time then put the toddler/baby in bed. Sooth the baby/toddler by stroking, patting, and singing. Don't pick the baby/toddler up even if the baby/toddler is crying. Keep up the stroking, patting, or singing until your child falls asleep.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

No I wouldn't. If my baby was crying, she would also be holding up her arms to me. And I can't imagine refusing to respond to her reaching arms.

I would not force my child to sleep unattended. And by not removing her from the crib (or other bedtime entrapment device :LOL ) when her crying indicates that is what she wants is forcing her imo.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I think it depends on the kind of crying. We AP mamas can tell what kind of cry is a tired, fussy, half-hearted cry and what kind is a scared/hurt kind of cry. I am in NO way an advocate of CIO, but I did have to get Nitara to bed by 8PM because she has medical needs that require her to be hooked up to equipment at night. I gradually and gently decreased the picking up response in favor of the back patting/talking response.

But it was very gentle and not traumatic for either of us. I never let her cry this way, I would calm her down and get her comfortable and relaxed and ready for sleep. Now most of the time she *wants* her crib when she's tired and will lay down and go to sleep with just some back patting.

I started by picking her up, hugging her, and putting her back down, over and over if necessary, staying with her until she was comfortable and went to sleep in the crib. Then I started hugging her as she was standing at the railing but not picking her up. Just lots of hugging and talking and pack patting, and me gently laying her back down over and over. Next was just back patting. Now she will often put herself back to sleep after vocalizing for 10 seconds (I wouldn't even call it crying, more like confused, half-asleep "talking").

I am not sure that her sleeping by a certain time, or her being her crib and not in our bed, would have been so important if she did not have these medical needs. I would probably have her and Abi sharing a bed by now, but I can't have my 4yo around medical equipment, KWIM? At least they share a room and that does help both of them with sleeping through the night. Sometimes I hear Abi talking to Nitara on the monitor if she wakes up briefly, saying "It's okay Nitara, go back to sleep."










Now Abi is and was a different baby. She has been high needs and never would have gone for this technique that I used on Nitara.


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## Vermillion (Mar 12, 2005)

I voted no, not at any age.

I agree with everything thismama said.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

I could see possibly trying it with a young child (not baby and not an early toddler) if mom was really frustrated. It would really depend on the DC and the situation though. I wouldn't use it just as a matter of course, but sometimes desperate times call for desperate measures.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
I wouldn't use it just as a matter of course, but sometimes desperate times call for desperate measures.









True. I have not had times that desperate, but then I've had a relatively easy baby and somebody to call if I was about to lose it. But I do think it's a better solution than full on CIO, or babyshaking!


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*







True. I have not had times that desperate, but then I've had a relatively easy baby and somebody to call if I was about to lose it. But I do think it's a better solution than full on CIO, or babyshaking!

Very true, sometimes you are sleep deprived to that point. I wish sometimes that we lived in a joint family situation like the old days where if you are exhausted your mother or aunt can take over so everyone is rested at least some of the time. I don't think babies had sleep "issues" until modern times.

My baby brother was shaken by a caregiver b/c he was sick and not sleeping and irritating the caregiver. So this issue is close to my heart.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Oh that's horrible USAmma. Was your brother okay?


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

I voted no, but now that I think about it, I've done it. Every baby is different. I've never done it with my son. When he cries at bedtime, I hold him. I'll rock him or lay in his bed with him and hug him.
But Nadia is a different kind of person. Even as a baby, she liked sleeping in her own space with her arms and legs splayed. When she got overtired, she would fight me holding her and want down. From about 5-10 months, I would lay her on her tummy and vigorously pat her butt while she cried. That was the only way I could get her to sleep. If I tried to hold her or rock her or nurse her, she would get so pissed off! She would work herself into a tantrum. But if I put her down and patted her, her crying would slowly get quieter and she would fall asleep.
Now that she's getting close to 3, she either falls asleep by nursing, flopping all over the bed and kicking the wall and rolling over a bunch of times, watching a movie on the floor with her favorite blanket and stuffed animal, or being driven in the car. I can't cuddle or rock her to sleep. She hates it. There are times when she's really tired that she'll get her favorite blanket and stuffed animal and roll around on the floor crying until she is asleep.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Oh that's horrible USAmma. Was your brother okay?

Unfortunately he passed away.







The man is serving time in prison for it. Adam was handicapped and had dwarfism, he was 6 years old and about 25 pounds when it happened.


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## momileigh (Oct 29, 2002)

USAmma, I'm so sorry! That is very sad.

I voted yes for older baby/toddler, but would like to add that this did not work for my dd, as I would have stood there patting, singing, etc. for ten hours or more if she was in a certain mood! You have to be flexible, and not say, "OK, at this point I'm NOT picking her up anymore, just patting her." You'll drive everyone nuts. If you pat and sing etc. for a long time and you're getting nowhere, pick her up.


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## Crunchier (Jun 26, 2003)

I tried this a few times over Ben's first year. It never worked for us. The original post didn;t say anything about the baby crying. Ben did fuss and I picked him up. If he'd gone to sleep peacefully, I don;t see anything wrong with it.

We have a crib, but only used it sidecarred,a dn we have a bassinette, but only used it for daytimes for the first few weeks. We are dedicated cosleepers now. I don;t see how this method would be at all effective for cosleeping.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bens_mommie*
I tried this a few times over Ben's first year. It never worked for us. The original post didn;t say anything about the baby crying. Ben did fuss and I picked him up. If he'd gone to sleep peacefully, I don;t see anything wrong with it.

We have a crib, but only used it sidecarred,a dn we have a bassinette, but only used it for daytimes for the first few weeks. We are dedicated cosleepers now. I don;t see how this method would be at all effective for cosleeping.

I have used it a couple of times while co-sleeping and it didn't help us at all.







: My DS wanted me to pick him up and walk around, bouncing, with him and I was just soooo tired. I figured, what's the harm if I just cuddle him and nurse him, why can't he get to sleep that way?

It didn't work - I'll spare you the horrible details!

Anyway, I agree, not many people could use this while co-sleeping. Even in a crib, I don't think it would work for my DS, he is too "into" human contact. But for some babies it might work better, esp. if they're not that used to being held by mom/dad at night.


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## Bleu (Mar 6, 2004)

I voted no, but I should point out that I don't mean "_no, because I think it is terrible and anyone who does it is a big bad meanie and thusly I condemn you_." I just meant no, I personally never tried it and I don't see myself trying it because it's not my personality and it's not Bleuet's personality. We co-sleep, he breastfeeds, the patting thing just makes no sense to me -- it would be much, much harder than what I'm doing now. YMMV.


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## Ravin (Mar 19, 2002)

I'm as AP as I can be, and for the life of me I often can't tell between Luthien's tired cries and her pissed off cries. Often one runs into the other. I wish I could tell better, because if she's just angry/frustrated trying to nurse her often gets me bitten, while if she's tired it's exactly what she needs and once she's got the boob in her face she realizes it.

I wouldn't use that method because if they need to be held, they need to be held, whether 5 months or 5 years old.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Well it depends on the baby, how much the baby needed sleep, what kind of crying the baby was doing etc. . .I might try it. you can always decide to stop trying if they started fussingmore than you were comfortable with. there is no rule that says if you try putting them down to sleep you can't ditch it the second they start crying .


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

What Bleu said!


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## Rainbowbird (Jul 26, 2004)

I voted not at any age. My DS has been in a crib since he was 6 weeks old. He has always loved his crib and been very happy in it, as evidenced by sleeping soundly through the night at a very young age. (He was a wiggly, fussy, wakeful baby when he was in bed with us, which is why we tried the crib so early). However, there have certainly been times, esp. when he was young (he's now 26 mos) when he woke at night and cried for whatever reason.

DH and I have always, always gone to him and held him after attending to his needs (diaper, feeding etc.). Far from making him a poor sleeper or more dependent, it's just made him more independent and a better sleeper! In fact, last night he awoke congested from his cold. I held him and rocked him, and in about 5 min. he said, "Night night, Mama, crib", and down he went. I think he knows that we will always come and help him and hold him if he wants it, therefore he feels more comfortable in his own space.

I really can't imagine limiting the amount of holding and rocking for a distressed child. We found that offering cuddles and rocking really made our son a better sleeper. However, as another PP said, I suppose if someone is at the end of their rope and totally sleep deprived, the patting thing is a better alternative than CIO.


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## Vicitoria (Dec 17, 2004)

I've been doing it this week and it's working very well on my 9 month old. I do pick him up if he's really crying but I really haven't had much of it. After trying several things we've given up on co-sleeping. Lukas is doing really well in his crib and it's obvious he is much happier there. I put my hand on his chest to keep him down and sooth him. I don't want him to get up and walk around the crib. For the most part he is just learning to put himself to sleep. He's so tired and wants to sleep but also wants to experience everything in the whole world at the same time. Crying hasn't been an issue at all. Once in the middle of the night I had to pick him up and walk him to sleep. He was just overtired from not sleeping well in our bed for a week. But now that he's used to sleeping in his crib he is doing much better all day. He's rarely overtired anymore. I have a really good bond with my son and it's working for us. The other night he was really congested and slept with us most of the night. 2 hours propped up in the crook of my arm and 2 hours in the crook of my husbands arms but the next day he was back in his crib sleeping almost through the night. I had to get up once and gave him some water and he went right back to sleep. He pushed the bottle away when he was done and turned over and went back to sleep so it's really working for him. We decided since we had to put him in the crib it would be OK to use a bottle to get him to sleep if we needed to. He goes to sleep with a bottle but has given up his middle of the night bottle we had to use to get him calmed down enough to sleep in our bed for like maybe an hour at a time. He's eating much better during the day without the middle of the night feedings as well. It's been an all around positive experience for us. Since we're unable to breastfeed I really feel like the bottle is giving us an advantage with a crib. Breastfeeding and a crib really don't mesh well. The problems we were having with our son is getting him comfortable eating and then getting him to bed in the same relaxed state. We tried him on a mattress on the floor of his room for a while but he would just get up and crawl around. It turns out he needs the boundries of the crib.

It works for us and I'm greatful I sleep for hours on end during the night!!! YeeHaa!!!!


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## ~Nikki~ (Aug 4, 2004)

Quote:

Have nursing/cuddle time then put the toddler/baby in bed. Sooth the baby/toddler by stroking, patting, and singing. Don't pick the baby/toddler up even if the baby/toddler is crying. Keep up the stroking, patting, or singing until your child falls asleep.
This is pretty much how we put DD to sleep. The only thing to note is that using this bedtime routine means that there _is_ no crying. It's much gentler than just dumping her in her room and leaving, as it kind of eases her into sleep-time if she's wound up at all. It's pretty much the same thing we did when we were co-sleeping, except it was just done in a different bed....oh, and sometimes the bedtime routine wouldn't happen until 11-12 at night, when DH and I were ready to fall asleep.







Now that she's ready for bed much earlier, and much too wiggly to be co-sleeping comfortably in our little bed, using this method of getting her relaxed at night seems to work the best. I see it as "part-time" co-sleeping, as I'm laying there with her while she falls asleep. I just sneak out of her bed before she starts wiggling and kicking me.


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## cozymama (Apr 27, 2004)

Never- but that may have alot to do with my son and knowing that he needs to be held and touched. The thought of knowing what my son wants, something so simple and easy to do, and not giving it to him really rips at my heart. In some ways I don't think this is "gentler" than CIO- I think it's more confusing the babe and may create more trust issues (babe thinking "why won't they just hold me"?)

But honestly, even when people feel that desperate "need sleep" feeling I fail to see how this would help?? It kind of implies that it will only take a little comforting/patting/whatever to help the baby go to sleep. I don't know about at night b/c we cosleep and have never had a crib, but from car trips with my son we've figured out that when he wants to be held he needs to be held- not patted or talked to- HELD. Again, just him, can't speak for other babes, but..........

It's such a simple need to be held, so simple. I'd think if the baby was held/touched, and happy, s/he would be quiet and the parent would get sleep, hence in our house "the family that sleeps together, sleeps".....until ds wants to nurse of course!! :LOL


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## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

If my daughter cries I hold her. If she is still crying with the patting, rubbing, and singing than that would tell me that it is not working and I would hold her and try something else.


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## dawndup (Jan 31, 2004)

I have done this with our DD when she was around 11 months old. Some posters have wondered how this can possibly help when you're already sleep deprived.... ours was waking 8-12 times a night and I couldn't count on nursing, walking, or rocking to put her back to sleep right away. I was running on 3 or so hours of sleep per night for weeks and it really affects your judgment, emotions... not fun to dread nighttime, to know that every time you hear your daughter crying your first thought is not "poor baby" but "I'm going to throw her out the window". Ugly thoughts... I would never do anything like that but the thoughts terrified me. At that point when even your motherly instincts are affected by the lack of sleep, you think about other options.

So yep we did the sit-by-the-crib-and-pat-and-shush for a few nights, then moved ourselves farther from the crib, and then farther, and it really really helped... DD did cry, but since we were right there, she did eventually stop and go to sleep peacefully. She stayed asleep longer and woke less often. We always have responded to her when she wakes, but now I really am convinced that there is something to "learning to self-soothe". I think it can be done in phased, gentle ways and without breaking the trust your baby has for you.


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## Caroline248 (Nov 22, 2003)

Yes. We have started trying this with the baby this week. He is just such a poor sleeper it has ben affecting him during the day, so we are trying this with naps. It has been working, today he was crying in my arms and I knew he was tired. So I layed him down and started singing softly and rubbing his back. He was out in two minutes. He cried a little, but he was already crying in my arms and that wasn't working. If he was crying for real, and not because he always cries before he falls asleep, I would pick him up, comfort him, and try again. I think the only reason we are trying this now is that Jackson does not sleep well and his crib is the quietist place in the house. My other kids could sleep anywhere and a bomb could go off and they wouldn't hear it. This baby is just different. Go figure!!

Rememver, AP is about responding to your childrens needs, not following a "rule" system. If your child needs to get to sleep ap certain way, taht is what AP is all about...

~C~


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## Caroline248 (Nov 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dawndup*
but now I really am convinced that there is something to "learning to self-soothe". I think it can be done in phased, gentle ways and without breaking the trust your baby has for you.


Yes, I have to agree with you. You need to be there when they need you, but at some point they HAVE to learn to fall asleep on their own....otherwise you spend the whole night comforting them back to sleep. A baby can wake 12 times a night, if it takes 15 minutes each time to get them back to sleep, you are in for a tough year!! Especially since I can't let him cry, I felt like I was here just for Jacksons nightly amusement, he would want me to sing, pat, rub, nurse...it took just about everything short of standing on my head to get him to sleep. I still wake up when he stirs at night, but I have noticed more times lately that he turns his head, sees me, and goes back to sleep....

~C~


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dawndup*
but now I really am convinced that there is something to "learning to self-soothe". I think it can be done in phased, gentle ways and without breaking the trust your baby has for you.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Caroline248*
but at some point they HAVE to learn to fall asleep on their own....otherwise you spend the whole night comforting them back to sleep.

I very very strongly disagree!

Both of my girls go to sleep on their own. Neither of them has ever been left to cry. I have never refused comfort to either of my children, no matter how tired I was. I have never refused to nurse them when they need to nurse. I have always picked them up and held them when they are upset. Both of them put themselves to sleep just fine without any sort of babytraining.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stafl*
I very very strongly disagree!

Yep, me too. Kids DO learn to go to sleep on their own no matter what you do - REALLY.


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## Cranberry (Mar 18, 2002)

No, not at any age. If ds was crying, I would pick him up. Can't. Listen. To the crying. It breaks my heart.


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## Caroline248 (Nov 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stafl*
I very very strongly disagree!

Both of my girls go to sleep on their own. Neither of them has ever been left to cry. I have never refused comfort to either of my children, no matter how tired I was. I have never refused to nurse them when they need to nurse. I have always picked them up and held them when they are upset. Both of them put themselves to sleep just fine without any sort of babytraining.


I never said I left them crying or refused to nurse them. I said if he is crying his "I am exhausted" cry and holding him is not helping (obviously AFTER nursing etc) then laying him down and rubbing his back helps him. I think what my point was that some children are comforted BETTER that way. Believe me, this baby is throwing me for a loop....none if my other kids responded to things the way he does. But he is an individual, some of the things that work for him would never have worked for my other kids, and vice versa....

I am NOT babytraining....he is mamatraining....

~C~


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stafl*
I very very strongly disagree!

Both of my girls go to sleep on their own. Neither of them has ever been left to cry. I have never refused comfort to either of my children, no matter how tired I was. I have never refused to nurse them when they need to nurse. I have always picked them up and held them when they are upset. Both of them put themselves to sleep just fine without any sort of babytraining.


Quote:

Yep, me too. Kids DO learn to go to sleep on their own no matter what you do - REALLY.
I don't know a single teenager that still needs to be rocked to sleep! :LOL

Seriously kids do and WILL learn to fall asleep on their own eventually with no intervention on our part. Some will learn at a few months others at a few years. Regardless of age they will also cycle thru it. My son slept thru the night and fell asleep easily at an early age but during his 3 1/2 years on the planet we have gone thru cycles where only nursing or singing or hugging or snuggling would get him to fall asleep. I would not deny him that comfort for any reason because I know that one day too soon he won't want me to sing him to sleep or read him a few stories or rub his back or belly before bed.


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

going back to answer the OP:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oklahoma Mama*
I would like opinions on what you think of this sleep technique. Have nursing/cuddle time then put the toddler/baby in bed. Sooth the baby/toddler by stroking, patting, and singing. *Don't pick the baby/toddler up even if the baby/toddler is crying.* Keep up the stroking, patting, or singing until your child falls asleep.

It's the part in bold that bothers me the most. There is no way I would leave my child crying and not even try to figure out what she needs, and then doing whatever I possibly could to meet that need. If she needs to be comforted, that is still a very real need. If she needs to nurse (the most likely case with either of my children) I will nurse her. It doesn't matter what time of day or night, or how recently she last nursed.

I'm rather suprised at the poll results. I would have thought the votes for "No, never" would be much more than that here at mdc.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

I'm a "No, never" person myself. If the baby wants to be picked up, why not pick them up? I don't think it's more gentle than CIO. If you aren't there and they cry, they're afraid you might not come back. If you are there and they cry, but you don't pick them up, they're afraid you might not ever pick them up again. You're just trading one fear in for another, so how is it more gentle? People always use the husband/wife scenario when talking about CIO - they say, "What if your husband saw you crying, but just walked in the other room and left you to cry alone?" Well, what if your husband saw you crying and you said, "You know, I really need a shoulder to cry on" and he said, "Hey, sorry. I don't feel like cuddling - it's hot in here," then proceeded to pat your back instead. Wouldn't you think he was being a jerk?

Disclaimer: Okay, I know there are some babies who truly don't want to be held when they're tired - that is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about babies who would *stop* crying if someone would just pick them up or nurse them.


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

Stafl:

Quote:

It's the part in bold that bothers me the most.









Oklahoma Mama:

Quote:

Don't pick the baby/toddler up even if the baby/toddler is crying.
That's the part that bothers me too. I said "no/never."
My DS needs to feel comforted. He gets mad even if I roll over and try to ignore him at night when he wakes up and can't go back to sleep after he's nursed, cuddled, and still struggles. I understand that there are some children who get even more upset when attempts to hold and comfort are given but the majority need hugs and comfort. I was at a cousin's house a few months back. Her 3yo DS got overtired. She shut the door and left him in the room to cry for at least 30 min or more. I think it was definately more because he undressed for attention. She is fairly attached but never co-slept. Even if my DS is overtired/overstimulated I will never leave him in a room alone to cry. He will always know that I will be there. If he still doesn't sleep after 30 to 45 min, then he can wait till later. My DS is 12 mo and is learning to go to sleep on his own. He frequently comfort nurses and rolls over to go to sleep. I was a little wistfull of this behavior at first but last night when he was attached to my breast for what seemed like hours, I was glad when he rolled over and went to sleep several times.


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## Vicitoria (Dec 17, 2004)

I really enjoy these debates because they open up my mind to all sorts of things I probably wouldn't think about. What I think is really interesting is how some can categorically say "no, I'd never do that." I simply have to believe it's because that person has never really been in that situation. You never really know what you're going to do until you are faced with an actual decision.

I have a friend who truly attatchment parents right down to the letter. It is the most natural thing in the world to her and she has had no problems. I also can't go to her for any advise because the answers are always like this: "well, we've never had a sleeping problem. All 4 of us sleep in bed together and when they're hungry they just latch on and I sleep right through it." Or, "when they are happy I latch them on, when they are sad I latch them on, when they are hungry or not hungry I just latch them on." Or, "teething? He just latches on all day."

The morning my son was born I was trying to breastfeed and even as the midwife was encouraging me I knew in my gut something was wrong and it wasn't going to work. I said outloud, "no similac for my baby, ever!" I tried for days but never produced enough for even one feeding. I love babywearing but I physically can't do it anymore and my son doesn't even want it! We love co-sleeping, at least the idea of it but it just honestly didn't work for any of us after my son started becoming more independent and more mobile.

Children will and do eventually learn to fall asleep on their own. The truth of the matter is getting a good night's rest is imperitave to everyone. A baby needs extra attention and a good night's rest is often re-defined at times but everyone I talk to has found getting a sleeping pattern in order paramount to their well being. I am in a mom's group with a lot of mom's who gave birth with midwives and love their children and would do anything for them and we have all come to this same conclusion. No matter what it takes we need to make sure our kids nap and sleep well at night. It's the best thing for the child. We have also found, each of us in our own time that there is crying involved. We have all put it off and put it off because we couldn't stand to let our babes just lay there and cry but we did it, with love and it has worked every single time. Yes, you can let your child learn to fall asleep on their own and it can take several years and if you choose to parent that way it is OK. But, how many times have you learned a very important lesson and then said to yourself "Gosh, I wish I'd learned that years ago, think of the difference it would have made!" My son knows he can fall asleep on his own now, he prefers it! If he wakes in the middle of the night I go to him but he actually pushes me away and turns over and goes to sleep. We teach our children so much. We can't teach them to fall asleep? That really makes no sense. Crying is the only way a child can communicate sometimes. Just because they cry doesn't mean they hate us or even turn their cries towards us personally. Maybe they are simply asking to be shown a better way? Yes, they may cry because they are being introduced to something new and it's new territory for them but they still know there mom is there and loves them. They do learn and then the move on and build on what they've learned. Yes, there are parents out there who are not thinking it out to this extent when they let their children cry. But, I seriously doubt they are reading these boards. We are, we are looking for the best ways to raise our children and hopefully find a loving and supportive place to find the best methods for our individual children and be supported in the choices we make.

Sometimes it bothers me that there is a "right" or "wrong" action when it comes to parenting on these boards or that anyone has to be afraid of what they post or explain themselves several times over in order to prove they are doing the "right" thing, like they won't be accepted otherwise.

Sometimes I hear that it's the mothers who are going to change the world. Well, sometimes I wonder about it when I read posts. Instead of being open we are closed. Instead of being accepting we are being judgemental. That kind of scares me. What kind of effect does that attitude ultimately have on our children?


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Vicitoria, I have to tell you that there is no circumstance in which I would refrain from comforting my child. It is NOT "judgmental" to say that! In fact, I'd say that it's judgmental to call others that just because they disagree with you! I equate CIO and refusing to comfort a crying child with hitting. I would never under any circumstance hit my child. Why can I say that without being "judgmental", but I can't say I would never do this? You are being completely unfair and judgmental yourself, when you decide that just because I refuse to engage in a certain practice, I am judging all those who do! I get so irritated by hearing that! It simply isn't true. I'm not judgmental just because I don't, can't, won't ever let my child CIO. Period. I won't do it. There is no circumstance in which I would do it. I find it cruel, just as I find spanking cruel. Therefore, just as I would NEVER spank my child, I would also NEVER (and yes, I mean absolutely, unequivocally, without a doubt NEVER) refuse to comfort my child if that's what she wanted. Period.

Do you honestly believe that this means I've never been tired? Never had PPD? Never been to the point that I thought I was going to lose it if she didn't just go to sleep already? It is absolutely MADDENING for me to hear you make condescending remarks like, "I simply have to believe it's because that person has never really been in that situation." You have NO IDEA what I have been through with my daughter! I had TERRIBLE PPD for the first 3 months. I even considered having myself hospitalized at one point because I was afraid something terrible was going to happen. She wouldn't nap for more than 20 minutes at a time for at least 4 months and there was a good 10 weeks during which she wouldn't sleep unless she was latched onto my boob. Do you think I wasn't freaking tired and at the end of my rope? I FELL ASLEEP at the wheel one day I was so goddamn tired. During all this, my marriage was doing horribly and my husband was working 12 to 18 hours a day. We're a military family, so we're nowhere near any of our family and friends. Then, my husband left on deployment. He's been gone for the last 3 months. I've had NO HELP! How dare you say that I only say I would never do this because I haven't "been in that situation". WHAT situation? I've been tired. I've been at the end of my rope. I've been alone. I've been desperate. I've been so depressed I was afraid I would hurt myself or my baby. But you know what? I got through it. I loved her. I nurtured her. I took care of myself as best as I could. And I nursed this darling baby to sleep every single night and for every single nap - even when I was frustrated/tired/at the end of my rope/scared/resentful. You name it, I have been through it in the last 11 months.

I'm sorry, but in my opinion, your last post was extremely condescending and just downright wrong. You engage in a certain practice that some people here don't agree with. Therefore, you try to rationalize it away by saying that no one really *means* that they wouldn't do it. You try to say that we just *say* we wouldn't do it because our situation just hasn't been as hard as yours. Well you know what? You're wrong. I said I would never do it because I MEANT I would never do it!

Okay, now that I got that off my chest. I want to make something very clear. I AM NOT JUDGMENTAL JUST BECAUSE I SAY I WOULD NEVER DO THIS! I'm sure 99.9% of the parents who use CIO are wonderful parents. I'm sure you're a great mother and you obviously love your kids. That's wonderful. Furthermore, I'm sure you're a great person in general. However, I still think that last post was way off base and out of line. Anyway though, no hard feelings.....It just really made me angry that after all I have been through (and I haven't even told half of it...food allergies, elimination diets, etc., etc. ad nauseum) you just come along and flippantly say that I basically haven't been in a hard situation and that's the only reason I wouldn't do this. You're so wrong.


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## Caroline248 (Nov 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Richelle*
Vicitoria, I have to tell you that there is no circumstance in which I would refrain from comforting my child. It is NOT "judgmental" to say that! .


I don't think anyone here said they would not comfort their child. I know I for one am comforting my child HIS way, not mine. My way to be to hold hom and rock him to sleep, he arches his back and screams the whole time. His way is to lay down and wimper a little while I rub/pat his back and sing to him. So because he crys while that goes on, he is not being comforted?? He SCREAMS if I do take him in my arms. There are different ways of comforting...

I did go back and read the OP, and I have to change my answer. NO, I would not let my child scream to be picked up....but I would let him cry out of tiredness...again, THAT IS WHAT WORKS FOR HIM. I would never not comfort a child.

That said, after being here, I felt so guilty last night I tried to do more comforting the "AP" way. Maybe we slept for 2 hours total. I guess I am a faliure at AP according to the MDC standards......how sad.

~C~


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## Caroline248 (Nov 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vicitoria*
I

Sometimes it bothers me that there is a "right" or "wrong" action when it comes to parenting on these boards or that anyone has to be afraid of what they post or explain themselves several times over in order to prove they are doing the "right" thing, like they won't be accepted otherwise.

?


I think that would happen anywhere there are topics people feel strongly about, and parenting is most definatly one!! The more I hang out here, the more I think I am NOT really an AP parent. Not saying anything about the posters here, it just seems that what works in my house is NOT AP, at least not with this child. Is it possible to be AP with some kids, not with others? Is it possible to have a non-ap baby??

~C~


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Richelle*
Disclaimer: Okay, I know there are some babies who truly don't want to be held when they're tired - that is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about babies who would *stop* crying if someone would just pick them up or nurse them.

Caroline248, that quote is from my original post in this thread. Therefore, you don't fall into the CIO category as far as I'm concerned! I don't think many people would say you're using a CIO method if your baby doesn't want to be held. In fact, I find it very "AP" to do exactly what you are doing, since that is what your baby wants.







The reason I would never use this sleep training method is because the OP states that you can't pick your baby up, even if they cry. If *most* babies were crying in that situation, it would be because they want to be comforted in some way besides patting. Therefore, to continue with the patting and refuse to pick baby up would be nothing more than a modified version of CIO, in my opinion.

If you are doing what is best for your child, you ARE attachment parenting him! If he prefers sleeping in a crib or releasing tension by crying himself to sleep, then you are doing exactly what is right for him by allowing him to do so! I would certainly never suggest otherwise. It's just that that isn't what I'm talking about at all. I think you're really misunderstanding a lot of these posts. If your child prefers to be parented in a certain way and you do that for him, you're giving him exactly what he needs, which is the whole idea behind AP. It's just that IMO, and in the opinion of a lot of people who post here, I guess, when a baby is crying to be picked up and you refuse to pick him/her up, you aren't giving them what they need in that situation. There is a biiiiggg difference between crying to release tension and crying because mama won't pick you up.


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## Caroline248 (Nov 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Richelle*
It's just that IMO, and in the opinion of a lot of people who post here, I guess, when a baby is crying to be picked up and you refuse to pick him/her up, you aren't giving them what they need in that situation. There is a biiiiggg difference between crying to release tension and crying because mama won't pick you up.


See, but this is MY opinion too. At least it was with my other children. So I feel like I am doing something wrong with this baby. Maybe that is why I get so upset at posts like this, it reinforces I am not practicing my ideals.

~C~


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

I guess we're both up early today!









Well, I think your baby just needs to blow off steam and he obviously doesn't want to be held while he does it. It would be hard for me to have a baby like that, too. I would probably be so confused, because my DD is *such* a snuggler. She *has* to have me to fall asleep, stay asleep, hold her all day, etc. So I know it would be hard to adjust to a baby who didn't want all that. You have a lot more experience at parenting than I do, by looking at your siggie info







, so it isn't like you need my approval or something, but I'd give you a big thumbs up anyway!


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## Caroline248 (Nov 22, 2003)

I know, good morning!! Coffee??

Experience parenting is sort of a "bite-you-in-the-butt" statement. Just when you think you got it down...the next one throws you a curve ball. I have no experience with this kind of baby, so I am a first timer with this! I mean, it worked for the others..what am I doing wrong?? I guess I just need to accept HIS personality.....as odd as it may be!!

~C~


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## Vicitoria (Dec 17, 2004)

Richelle - I would quote your post but there is a lot in there. I truly apologize if you were offended by anything I said. It was not my intention to offend anyone. My intention was to open up minds to a different point of view. If anything, to put into words how my mind has been opened and how I wish all minds in general could be opened to be accepting of others beliefs and that we should all try to learn from each other. Yes, I am equally as judgemental in my own right so I'm certainly not excluded from what I've said. I just wish I didn't have to feel like I need to tip toe around what I post. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way. Letting a child cry till he pukes is obviously wrong. Not comforting a child that needs comfort is also wrong. I just think there is more to every situation and life is more grey or rainbow colored instead of black and white. I know my post was very long but I think I encompassed a lot in it and I wish one little part weren't taken out and bashed instead of taking the entire thing in the context and love in which it was written.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

I don't think anyone should *ever* tip toe around and be afraid to speak their mind. I just felt like you were saying - well, I already explained all that in way too many words.







I guess I'm a little sensitive about people saying, "Oh, you'll change your mind about (insert spanking, CIO, breastfeeding or any number of things) when such and such happens" or "when you're in my shoes." I've been hearing those comments since before my DD was born. "Cloth diapers? Oh, that won't last more than a couple weeks." "Oh, you'll quit breastfeeding after a month or so. It's too much work." "Just wait until she's a toddler having a temper tantrum - you'll spank her then!" And so on. I've put a lot of thought into the parenting decisions I have made and will put equally as much thought into the ones I will make in the future. Therefore, there are *some* things (obviously not everything







) that I am just unwilling to bend on. Sleep training just happens to be one of them. And it really makes me feel disrespected when people are constantly invalidating my decisions by making comments like the ones I mentioned. Your post made me feel the same way as those comments, so I guess it hit a sore spot.







I'm sorry if I took it the wrong way.


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## Vicitoria (Dec 17, 2004)




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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

No, I would never do that.

My son is almost 4 years old. We have coslept all his life, and will do so until he decides otherwise.

I have a child that didn`t sleep more than 45 minute stretches until he was 2 years old. And he still wakes up atleast 3 times every night. This is just who he is.

But I could never NOT pick him up if he cried. Never. To me that is just as bad as CIO. It also sounds like this would be just as traumatic for the child as normal CIO. "Mommy is here, but she doesn`t want to pick me up."

If my child wants to be held, I hold him. Easy as that.

I really liked lilhomegrownmoma`s and Richelle`s posts.


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