# My four year old. . .



## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

is wearing me down. We've had three weeks of constant battles. I just don't know what to do. I feel terrible for him and for me. Typical example: Today daddy was taking a nap. Ds was being a dinosaur right out side the bedroom. I said, daddy's napping, we need to be quiet. He continued roaring. I said, Hey lets go outside and be dinosaurs. He hid under the table and continued roaring. Honey, if you don't stop you will get in trouble. Daddy is trying to sleep and you need to make noise away from the door. He continues. . . .I picked him up and took him to his room and which point he is kicking and scratching me. Later we make up, talk about it, he promises to listen. . . an hour later we are locked into a similar situation. All day long. Why? Why? Why? I don't like it. He doesn't like it.

I guess this could be a gentle discipline issue, but I'm wondering more about the brain of a 4 year old. What is he getting out of this?


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## mermommy (Aug 16, 2004)

I'm not going to be much for solutions but I wanted to offer







. My DD ( 4.5ish) is continuously trying to run the roost or push boundaries these days. We've had a very stressful last few months and I'm sure part of it is an age thing too. It does seem that a big part is that she doesn't understand the reasons behind my requests or actions, she just sees them as mommy said no or mommy isn't making time for me.

I'm trying to work on my reactions and explanations to her and diverting her energy. It doesn't always work and sometimes it comes down to a sobbing, kicking mess like you describe. It's very exhausting ( especially while caring for an almost 6 month old - or any other children for that matter). I hope things ease up for you soon.

Sorry I can't be more help.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Thanks. The only upside today is that he is apparently an angel at school. Always. I put him to bed at 6:30 today







. I think it helps to know that other 4 yos are also dissovling into kicking screaming messes.


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## mermommy (Aug 16, 2004)

Well, behaving elsewhere is something








They do always seem to save the *best* for mommy.

I know it helps me to hear other kids act up sometimes. It always seems that my kid is the only one throwing a fit/ being obnoxious/ what have you. There also always seems to be at least one mother standing ready with a *tsk* or * I never* It doesn't help that people assume my DD is older based on her size.


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

With my DS it is whining and crying. He whines constantly and cries at the drop of a hat. Lately it has been centered around the TV. If he is watching TV, he's happy. If anyone else deigns to glance at the television in a purposeful manner, he throws a crying tantrum. He actually lost TV privleges because of this behavior this evening.


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

Oh goddess my 4yo DD is the exact same way as the OP. Right down to the "daddy's napping, please be quieter or daddy will be upset."

and the kicking, screaming mess.

and the whining. oh god, the whining.

I'm exhausted from the battles.


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## twopinknoblue (Feb 22, 2007)

Hugs to you all......I was just coming here to post about this very thing. My DD (4.25 yrs) is a crying, whining, screaming mess lately, and it's wearing us all down. DH and I are at a loss as to where to go with her next. Most of our worst behavior seems to be an attempt to manipulate situations into getting things the way she wants them. I really think it's developmentally appropriate behavior, but it's leaving me exhausted and with very little time or energy for my 15 mo DD.

Just this morning we left for preschool with DD still in her pajamas. She spent her entire morning in a tantrum on the floor because I wouldn't scratch her back while she went to the potty







:. Yes, I know it seems like a simple request and I should have complied, but it's not that easy. First, I was changing a poopy diaper from DD2, I was still trying to get things together for school, and most importantly, DD1 is the type that if I come in the bathroom and scratch her back this once, she will expect me to do so EVERY time she goes to the bathroom (which isn't practical). So, it was endure this tantrum this morning, or deal with it at a later time when she expects me to scratch her back while peeing. I chose this morning to deal with it because DH was still home. So, DD spent all of her time tantruming and didn't have time to dress so we went to school in our pajamas......she did manage to make it to the bathroom and get dressed once we got there, but still.

So, I guess I don't have a lot of ideas for you gals, just love and support. Maybe we can keep this thread going just to offer support for one another. Believe me, I need it more than once through any given day. Anybody up for coming here to share their daily woes and comiserate with us other worn down mamas??

I'm subbing to this thread!!!


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## Rainbowbird (Jul 26, 2004)

I just wanted to say, "This too shall pass." Our DS is 4.5 and we just came out of a similar phase. As he emerged from it, he suddenly had all these new skills and maturity. He began getting really interested in poetry and rhymes and is making them up now all day long. He is wanting to practice writing numbers and letters constantly, wants to "make books" and "do homework" (Even though he is in preschool and doesn't really get any homework









So I think it's just like with the little ones. They emerge from a negative phase with all these new skills. I know it is hard when it's going on, but when they come out on the other side it is so wonderful to see how they have grown.

We handled the negative phase just by being consistent and calm. It wasn't easy, I won't lie to you! We made sure to give each other breaks from childcare and take time for ourselves. And there were nights we breathed a sigh of relief at bedtime.

But now things are back to normal, and it's much more fun!


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## croleRN (Apr 6, 2006)

; all I can say is I am right there with you mamas!!!


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## Sylith (Apr 15, 2002)

Four was a very *V E R Y* trying age for DS1. Just as y'all describe, with the whining and not listening and giant tantrums over unreasonable issues. Like the OP, I can't fathom what they get out of it.

Yuk. It gets so hard to like them anymore, by the end of the day.

I made a little stash of cute pix of him, his art projects that I especially liked, a baby outfit he wore. I'd pull it out to remind myself why I put up with him.

He seems to be growing out of it lately. I hear 5 is a great, fun age for a lot of mom-and-kid duos. Sure looking forward to that!


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor* 
I guess this could be a gentle discipline issue, but I'm wondering more about the brain of a 4 year old. What is he getting out of this?

short answer -- control! he wants to be in control. you offered him alternatives, but he doesn't want your alternatives he wants to be the one who decides. he wants to be in charge of himself. if you can find a way to give a little of that back to him it might help. i know it's very very trying!







.

one thing that is mentioned in "how to talk..." is doing a problem solving session (not sure if that's their terminology). you get a sheet of paper. (maybe not right in the heat of the moment, but later if he needs to cool down, but my girls will sometimes respond right then, too.) so you get this sheet of paper and it's very important that you WRITE DOWN ideas on the sheet of paper. the writing down helps the child feel like you are taking his ideas seriously. first at the top of the paper you write down the problem ("daddy's sleeping and you want to roar right at the door and that might wake him up.") be careful to write it in a way that is not slanted (i.e.: you're being way too noisy!). then you take turns thinking of all the solutions to the problem that you can each come up with. this is very important -- YOU HAVE TO WRITE DOWN ALL THE SOLUTIONS EVEN IF THEY'RE NOT WORKABLE! after you're done writing them down you can each go back and cross off the ones that won't work until you're left with a few you can try. this helps give the child some control of the situation and helps the child feel listened to (my words are important enough that mommy is writing them down).

here's an example:

Problem: daddy's sleeping and you want to roar right at the door and that might wake him up.

Solutions:
1. Keep roaring!
2. Roar outside
3. Roar Louder!
4. Play Chutes and Ladders instead
5. Turn into a crocodile and bite mommy!
6. draw a picture of a dinosaur
7. turn into a snake and hiss
8. help mommy do the dishes
9. play dinosaur downstairs

then you go back through and each veto the ones that don't work as solutions. it's very empowering for the child and can be silly, too.

another thing to try is the playful parenting techniques and just scoop him up and take him outside and be dinosaurs with him, etc, etc.

sometimes non of this works, though, and daddy just gets waked up and is grumpy. there's your natural consequence!

it'll pass and you'll be on to some other issue when they're 6.5!

hth


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## LovinLiviLou (Aug 8, 2004)

Rainbowbird said:


> So I think it's just like with the little ones. They emerge from a negative phase with all these new skills. I know it is hard when it's going on, but when they come out on the other side it is so wonderful to see how they have grown.
> 
> 
> > Thanks for this insight. It's good to keep this in mind.
> ...


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Thank you! Thank you! The thing with the pants is totally something ds would do. Last night, in the middle of dinner, he wanted someone to brush his teeth. I was eating, so I said, you can wait for me to be done eating, or you can go brush your teeth right now by yourself. Aw, the melt down. . . which is why he went to bed at 6;30. This morning he was a pleasant little guy. I don hope this phase is teaching him something!


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## karlin (Apr 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *croleRN* 







; all I can say is I am right there with you mamas!!!











OMG, I am so glad I'm not alone.







The whining is the worst!


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Well, I'm joining you all









DS's behavior has been ATROCIOUS!! ATROCIOUS!!

Briefly, I felt like I wanted to run away from it all.







I don't like that feeling 1 bit. I would never do that of course but just getting out of the house for a few hours have saved my sanity. There are times when it's hard for me to be around DS.

Challening issues we've been dealing with:

Interrupting DH and I when we talk. If I say in a minute he will yell "Mommmiiieee!!!" until I snappishly ask "What IS IT DS???" and he will say "Nothing"







:

When I quietly say it's time for his bath, he screams and yells and starts running all over the house. I have to catch him. By the time I DO catch him, I'm exhausted with sweat pouring down my face and trying to catch my breath.

He NEVER does anything I ask him to do. It's like his natural reaction is to do the opposite.

I'm rambling but Parenting my 4 year old is wearing me down as well. Sometimes, I feel like a failure as a Mom.

It makes me feel worse when we go out in public and I see Kids DS's age and they are quietly walking next to their parents holding their hand.

DS???? HA! He not only snatches away from me, he's still running away from me when I try to give him a little lee way. So, I have to hold his hand again, and then if we are crossing a street he will stop directly in front of an oncoming car and WON'T MOVE unless I pick him up and carry him the rest of the way.

Also, DS is an Extrovert Extrovert Extrovert. He has to be engaged in conversation at all times. I am an Introvert so sometimes meeting his need can be a challenge.

He won't let me out of his sight. He even goes to the bathroom with me. Even if I have to BM. You'd think he couldn't stand the smell but he CAN.

Sleep- Sleep is an annoyance in life to DS. He truly does not like to sleep. He doesn't nap and will still fight to stay awake if he's been up all day.

With a nap, he goest to bed between 11:00pm-11:30pm.

WithOUT a nap, he goes to bed between 9:30-10pm!

Ugh! It's hard.


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

OMG, thank you for this thread. You've all described my DS1 exactly. He loves to interrupt when DH and I are talking. He'll keep saying "mommy, mommy, MOMMY" over and over. If I tell him to stop he'll start singing loudly or banging his toys together so loudly that I cannot hear DH at all. Of course when I ask him what he needs to say he sits there and thinks for a few mins then makes something up like "I like cheese"







:

He also does the noise thing, if DS2 is sleeping he suddenly needs to be yelling outside the door. If DH is sleeping he needs to go into the room or bang on the door, no matter how many times I ask him not to.

If I offer him X and Y he wants Z. He has an intense need to call the shots and it is a battle of the wills each day. I struggle between choosing my battles and reminding him that I am the adult and I make the choices. Ughhh, it can be so exhausting. Some days I count down the hours until bedtime.


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## sunshine's mama (Mar 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
Well, I'm joining you all









DS's behavior has been ATROCIOUS!! ATROCIOUS!!

Briefly, I felt like I wanted to run away from it all.







I don't like that feeling 1 bit. I would never do that of course but just getting out of the house for a few hours have saved my sanity. There are times when it's hard for me to be around DS.

Challening issues we've been dealing with:

Interrupting DH and I when we talk. If I say in a minute he will yell "Mommmiiieee!!!" until I snappishly ask "What IS IT DS???" and he will say "Nothing"







:

When I quietly say it's time for his bath, he screams and yells and starts running all over the house. I have to catch him. By the time I DO catch him, I'm exhausted with sweat pouring down my face and trying to catch my breath.

He NEVER does anything I ask him to do. It's like his natural reaction is to do the opposite.

I'm rambling but Parenting my 4 year old is wearing me down as well. Sometimes, I feel like a failure as a Mom.

It makes me feel worse when we go out in public and I see Kids DS's age and they are quietly walking next to their parents holding their hand.

DS???? HA! He not only snatches away from me, he's still running away from me when I try to give him a little lee way. So, I have to hold his hand again, and then if we are crossing a street he will stop directly in front of an oncoming car and WON'T MOVE unless I pick him up and carry him the rest of the way.

Also, DS is an Extrovert Extrovert Extrovert. He has to be engaged in conversation at all times. I am an Introvert so sometimes meeting his need can be a challenge.

He won't let me out of his sight. He even goes to the bathroom with me. Even if I have to BM. You'd think he couldn't stand the smell but he CAN.

Sleep- Sleep is an annoyance in life to DS. He truly does not like to sleep. He doesn't nap and will still fight to stay awake if he's been up all day.

With a nap, he goest to bed between 11:00pm-11:30pm.

WithOUT a nap, he goes to bed between 9:30-10pm!

Ugh! It's hard.

OMG...We have the same child....except mine is 3.5yo....the only difference is when we are out, she is the child happily holding hands and such....other than that, pretty much the same.....right down to sleep....

Our PED is pretty progressive and I have talked to him about the sleep stuff and he told me that some children are just wired that way and don't need the sleep that is recommended until they start school or reach a certain age...Said he had 1 like ours and 1 who slept like clockwork..DD gave up naps shortly after her second birthday. Every now and then she'll conk out here and there but it's rare and when she does, it's a hard sleep and she's grouchier afterwards....BUT BOY DO I MISS NAPS....esp now that her new sister is here, who is sitting here next to me kicking and cooing.....so sweet...

But it's driving me crazy....

Lots of ppl have told me....

Terrible Twos, Trying Threes, Fantastic Fours.....was sooo looking forward to the Fantastic Fours but from what I am reading, it's more of the same....

Two was FANTASTIC for us.......3 certainly is VERY TRYING (more so for me bc Daddy isn't very helpful....going through a selfish phase which needs to stop but that's a different post for a different time)......

I'm just tired from the new baby who has decided the time to cluster nurse is btwn 1 and 4 am, my mom is seriously ill in the hospital, and the battle of wills is just on my last fringed nerve........

They'll outgrow it right??????????








to all.......


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## SabraMamma (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jilian* 
If I offer him X and Y he wants Z.

In our case, if I get him Z, then he really wanted X or Y. It goes back and forth! It is very draining.


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## Scout (Jan 23, 2002)

We never experienced what some people call the Terrible Twos with our son. We did, however, have what my husband and I call the F*n Fours.

I'm sorry you're having a rough time. It will get better, I promise!

~Scout


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Scout* 
We never experienced what some people call the Terrible Twos with our son. We did, however, have what my husband and I call the F*n Fours.

I'm sorry you're having a rough time. It will get better, I promise!

~Scout

That is the exact term we came up with last night!!!










and when I suggested that maybe he is learning something,

Dh said, Well, he better be a freakin' genius after this phase!

I also get the noisy just to interrupt. It is sooooo hard to deal with in the moment. You can try to ignore it ( and the person you are talking to thinks you are a nut, and they can't hear you) or you can try to deal with it, but how do you deal with a child who is ignoring you? He's trying to get my attention, and yet, ignoring me at the same time! I bend down and look him in the eye and he is still singing/making noise to get my attention.







:


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## Sylith (Apr 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Scout* 
the F*n Fours.

:rofl


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## lovemyfamily6 (Dec 27, 2006)

I'm with you guys. My twin boys are 4y4m. They're wearing me down. Every single day. I feel terrible because sometimes I don't even enjoy being around them and I feel like our day is just "getting through" with no time or energy left for fun and silliness. My oldest just turned 6 and I remember 3.75 until 4.5 was tough. I need to remember that. I feel like I barely survived that though and now we have TWO of them acting like that.

My good friend has twin boys that turned 4 a couple weeks ago. She sent me an email today with a list of normal development for 4 year olds and what types of behaviors are normal. One was "oppositional behavior". Yeah, we've got that.

I told dh the other night that I'm having a really hard time with 4. No matter how hard I try not to, I end up yelling every day. Multiple times. I told dh that I feel like I'm just getting torn down a little bit each day and the cumulative damage is not good. I'm not at all the mom I want to be to them and I worry every day that I'm causing lasting damage and we're not going to get out of the phase.

My friend suggested anti-depressants (I have a 5 month old baby too and she thought they could help if it's PPD) to get through. I really don't think it's me though. My husband is one of the most patient and easy going people I've ever known and he's having a hard time too.








I go to bed every night feeling sad for how the day went and wanting to change but as soon as my buttons are pushed repeatedly, I go into my default mode of yelling. I feel like I'm a terrible mom to four year olds.


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## Blu Razzberri (Sep 27, 2006)

OMG...I can't tell you how HAPPY I am to see you all here!!







I swear to you, I thought I was the only one going through this, and the only one who didn't know how to handle it.

I just kept thinking that my mom had 5 kids under the age of 7 by the time she was 23 years old. I was the oldest, so I remember it, and every one of us was generally being well behaved. I'm 26 and I only have one child, so I wondered WTF I'm doing that's so backwards that it's causing my son to behave like _this_. Now I realize, my mom was probably a drill seargent in a past life.


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## Blackcat (Jun 14, 2006)

This is exactly how my DD (4.5) is. Wild, whiny and out of control at home, but well behaved in preschool. Doesn't share toys at home but freely shares them in school. Why can't I have that behavior at home? Just once? It seems all I ever do is yell like a maniac after trying all day to be patient. We all have meltdowns here. My oldest is 16. Such a nice age compared!! I don't know how mothers of yore did it and kept sane at the same time. I just know that this too will pass....


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## velcromom (Sep 23, 2003)

Wow, it's not just us!! My ds2 will be five in a couple of months and he's been just horrible lately. Add to that a new baby sister, and omg, the irrational reasons for tantrums, the screaming and yelling, eek. Taking an hour to stop shrieking after scraping his elbow... Making noise to get my attention so I can't talk to dh then not stopping once I do respond... doing exactly what I ask him not to, deliberately...

it's good to hear it's a typical four year old thing. My ds1 was a lot more mellow at this age (always, actually) so I was really wondering if there was a problem going on.


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

Unfortunately DS1 shows his glorious 4 yr old atitude at school too. He's a serious limit tester and likes to see what he can get away with at school. I yell too







: I'll admit it. I start out the day cheery and vowing to keep cool but by 5 pm its on. I can only ask him to do something so many times before I want to scream. I've been trying really hard to lead by example lately and identify emotions to help him ex- "Mommy feels angry so mommy is gonna sit down and take some deep breaths so I don't yell". I think it helps a little. Whispering when I want to scream helps too.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovemyfamily6* 
I'm with you guys. My twin boys are 4y4m. They're wearing me down. Every single day. I feel terrible because sometimes I don't even enjoy being around them and I feel like our day is just "getting through" with no time or energy left for fun and silliness. My oldest just turned 6 and I remember 3.75 until 4.5 was tough. I need to remember that. I feel like I barely survived that though and now we have TWO of them acting like that.

My good friend has twin boys that turned 4 a couple weeks ago. She sent me an email today with a list of normal development for 4 year olds and what types of behaviors are normal. One was "oppositional behavior". Yeah, we've got that.

I told dh the other night that I'm having a really hard time with 4. No matter how hard I try not to, I end up yelling every day. Multiple times. I told dh that I feel like I'm just getting torn down a little bit each day and the cumulative damage is not good. I'm not at all the mom I want to be to them and I worry every day that I'm causing lasting damage and we're not going to get out of the phase.

My friend suggested anti-depressants (I have a 5 month old baby too and she thought they could help if it's PPD) to get through. I really don't think it's me though. My husband is one of the most patient and easy going people I've ever known and he's having a hard time too.








I go to bed every night feeling sad for how the day went and wanting to change but as soon as my buttons are pushed repeatedly, I go into my default mode of yelling. I feel like I'm a terrible mom to four year olds.









I totatly hear you. It is hard, when you are in the middle of it, to figure out what is real. Am I being a bad mom to him? Or, is he being especially hard? Does he have a mental disorder? Do I? Or, is four just REALLY difficult?? Is it a phase, or the first signs of something bigger? That's why this thread has been really good for me. I read the whole thing to dh.

Did I mention that I'm a teacher? I can handle 35 14-year-olds, no problem, but give me one four-year old and I'm a freakin' mess!!!


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

from what I understand, there are rebellions at 2, 5ish and teens. (Great, I have a 2 and a 4....at the same time right now.







)

And in 2 years, my 2 will be 4-5 and my newborn will be 2.

I am in for quite a next 3 years.








No advice, just


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## twopinknoblue (Feb 22, 2007)

We seemed to have made some progress this weekend, as we had such a lovely time together as a family for the entire weekend. There was no whining, no crying, no refusing to do anything, no back talk, no selective hearing, etc. It was the nicest weekend we've had for quite some time.

Unfortunately, it must have been a fluke, as Monday morning rolled around, and here we are right back in 4 year old hell. At this very moment DD is lying on the bathroom floor having a fit because I won't keep her company while she poops







:. Again, as I said last week, I know it seems like an easy request to comply with, but DD is of the personality that once I start it I'll have to keep her company everytime she uses the bathroom (and I'm not exaggerating here, you wouldn't believe the number of ridiculous rituals our family goes through because we complied to the silly requests one too many times).

Dealing with this is totally draining me. I start my day fresh, awake and feeling good. By the time afternoon rolls around I'm wiped out. My head is in a fog, my nerves are shot, and my attitude stinks. By the time DH gets home I feel like I'm just hanging on by a thread.

DH is sending me on a yoga/meditation retreat this weekend for my birthday and I CAN.NOT.WAIT. I've never ever been more excited to go away from my family and be alone. Imagine, almost 3 full days of peace and quite, and NO WHINING!!!!


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## timneh_mom (Jun 13, 2005)

OH geez... I'm going through something similar with my almost 3 year old!!! Is he going to do this at 4 too? Aughghghgh! I can't take it!!


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## dillonandmarasmom (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Scout* 
We never experienced what some people call the Terrible Twos with our son. We did, however, have what my husband and I call *the F*n Fours*.

I'm sorry you're having a rough time. It will get better, I promise!

~Scout

Oh man!! Love that name!
Our ds was/is exactly the same. No two's troubles, but oh. my. g*d, the fours...

The only thing that keeps us sane sometimes is watching old movies or looking at baby pics of him. It reminds us of who he is, and that he's not this little alien







.
(He is currently having a great day...it comes and goes like the clouds)


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor* 
Thank you! Thank you! The thing with the pants is totally something ds would do. Last night, in the middle of dinner, he wanted someone to brush his teeth. I was eating, so I said, you can wait for me to be done eating, or you can go brush your teeth right now by yourself. Aw, the melt down. . . which is why he went to bed at 6;30. This morning he was a pleasant little guy. I don hope this phase is teaching him something!

I'm going to wreck the party here, but why would he have to go to bed at 6:30? Because of a toothbrushing battle?

OMG if you even knew how many people WISH their kid would ask someone to brush their teeth! Honetsly I would have brushed the kids teeth and then finished eating. If you put this in the GD forum btw I'm sure many would say the same thing. Stop making things an issue. If my kid asks me to brush his teeth I'm happy that he took the responsibility to realize they needed brushing and I am happy to do it whenever

I don't think it's fair to ALWAYS make kids do things when WE think they should. Maybe letting him have some of his own will would make him stop fighting for it


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *425lisamarie* 
I'm going to wreck the party here, but why would he have to go to bed at 6:30? Because of a toothbrushing battle?

OMG if you even knew how many people WISH their kid would ask someone to brush their teeth! Honetsly I would have brushed the kids teeth and then finished eating. If you put this in the GD forum btw I'm sure many would say the same thing. Stop making things an issue. If my kid asks me to brush his teeth I'm happy that he took the responsibility to realize they needed brushing and I am happy to do it whenever

I don't think it's fair to ALWAYS make kids do things when WE think they should. Maybe letting him have some of his own will would make him stop fighting for it

Hmm. Really? Let me set the scene again. We are all at the table eating dinner. Several minutes into it, ds decides he needs _me_ to brush his teeth. In the middle of dinner. I told him that he could brush his own teeth, or, he could wait until I'm done and then I'd brush his teeth. He can brush his teeth whenever he wants to, but I don't need to stop everything to do it. He proceeds to melt down into screaming, clawing, etc. He usually goes to bed at 7pm, but it was the last straw of a day with 10 other instances like that, so he only made it 6:30. We were all drained.

Anyway, yesterday we had another hard day. We went to a party with his class. We almost didn't go, but I thought it would do us all good to get out of the house. He was pretty grouchy, but was ok for a while. Then, he decided that he needed to sit in the chair that his older brother was in. He started pushing and clawing and screaming that he needed to have that chair (there were like 10 empty ones, of course). I tried to talk to him calmly, but he scratched why wrist really bad, so dh scooped him up and we all went home.









Can I just say that he is an angel today?


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

Flor, I think what you did was reasonable. The choices you offered were reasonable, it isn't like you told him he absolutely could not brush his teeth. You should be allowed to sit down and enjoy a hot meal as long as your child's needs are met. Needing you to brush his teeth is more of a want than a need. I probably would have reacted the same way. IMO when a child tantrums over and over and over he/she is likely tired and in need of a little quiet time or rest. I think you reacted appropriately.

The part about putting that post in the GD forum was a little snarky. GD is not about being a martyr, and foregoing your dinner so you can brush your child's teeth is an example of pushing your basic needs aside for your child's wants.


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## twopinknoblue (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *425lisamarie* 
I'm going to wreck the party here, but why would he have to go to bed at 6:30? Because of a toothbrushing battle?

OMG if you even knew how many people WISH their kid would ask someone to brush their teeth! Honetsly I would have brushed the kids teeth and then finished eating. If you put this in the GD forum btw I'm sure many would say the same thing. Stop making things an issue. If my kid asks me to brush his teeth I'm happy that he took the responsibility to realize they needed brushing and I am happy to do it whenever

I don't think it's fair to ALWAYS make kids do things when WE think they should. Maybe letting him have some of his own will would make him stop fighting for it

Apparently you have never had to deal with a child like this. Personally, when a child is 4 years old and capable of brushing his own teeth, I see no reason why you should interupt your dinner to do it for them. This is the same as my DD needing me to rub her back and keep her company while using the bathroom. If I set that precident, then I will be rubbing her back EVERY time she goes to the bathroom. I have other children to take care of, as well as myself and a husband. It's not practical to think that I can stop what I am doing and sit in the bathroom with her every time she goes. Not to mention she's been going to the bathroom all on her own for well over 2 years now. Parenting is not about responding to every request your child makes.

Getting up from your dinner to brush your childs teeth because they out of the blue decide they need their teeth brushed is not allowing your child to have their own will.....it's allowing your child to run your life with their every demand, which can quickly spiral out of control if you aren't careful.

I think Flor did exactly the right thing.


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

Like I said, lots of people here like to group up together and INSIST there is NO OTHER WAY to all agree about something. You can defend all you want, but sometimes the problem is partially that the parent wants things the way they want them, not willing to bend.

And you didn't paint that picture, all you said was he wanted his teeth brush, you wouldn't do it, ended up going to bed at 6:30

I just think it's funny, there is like this click of mothers around here, "Oh lets just all support eachother and agree this age sucks and there is nothing to do about it."

When you say I have never dealt with "this kind of child" who knows. Maybe I do every day and deal with it better/different. MAybe I have perfect kids


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## allismom (Nov 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor* 
Later we make up, talk about it, he promises to listen. . .

I have come to the conclusion with my 4 1/2 year old, that she doesn't really get what it means when I say "you need to listen to mommy". I have tried rephrasing it, "you need to do what mommy says", "you need to do what I ask you to do (or not do) the first time I ask you", "you need to obey mommy" ( a term I am not crazy about, but she understands it from preschool).

I found when I would say "you need to listen to mommy" she just didn't seem to get that 'listen' meant to do or not do something.

Try some other phrases and see if it helps. Good luck.


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## twopinknoblue (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *425lisamarie* 
I just think it's funny, there is like this click of mothers around here, "Oh lets just all support eachother and agree this age sucks and there is nothing to do about it."


Ummm, well, for some of us this age does suck, and it's nice to come here for support and know you aren't the only one it sucks for. Parenting is tough, and sometimes when your child is wearing you down you start to feel like you are the only one and that maybe you did something to screw them up. I think it's fantastic that there's support on this website for us.

And, the problem isn't that I want things the way I want them and that I'm unwilling to bend, believe me I've bent over backwards more times than you can imagine. My daughter is allowed many freedoms, and many choices, but tantruming on the bathroom floor because I won't stop what I'm doing and come scratch her back is completely unreasonable and inappropriate and has nothing to do with me wanting things my way. I love my kids, I love them more than anything in the world, but I refuse to let them run my life for me. My DD is perfectly capable of using the bathroom alone and there is no reason what-so-ever for me to put all things on hold (including caring for DD2) so that she can have her back scratched while sitting on the toilet.


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## ErinEmily (Jul 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor* 
I totatly hear you. It is hard, when you are in the middle of it, to figure out what is real. Am I being a bad mom to him? Or, is he being especially hard? Does he have a mental disorder? Do I? Or, is four just REALLY difficult?? Is it a phase, or the first signs of something bigger? That's why this thread has been really good for me. I

This is so totally me some days. Ds is just so very, very trying these days. DD is also VERY 2 which doesn't help matters.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

...


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## Dolphin (Apr 22, 2004)

Subbing although I don't have time to type now...I'm so there with you all.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *425lisamarie* 
I just think it's funny, there is like this click of mothers around here, "Oh lets just all support eachother and agree this age sucks and there is nothing to do about it."


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *425lisamarie* 
I just think it's funny, there is like this click of mothers around here, "Oh lets just all support eachother and agree this age sucks and there is nothing to do about it."

I completely understand what you mean about the clique of mothers here, but I am not part of any clique. I only say what I think. My son acts like flor's child on occasion and if I were to jump to his every need and sacrifice my own needs because of it then I would not be a very good mom. I've been through the "mommy martyr" phase when DS1 was little and it didn't turn out too good. I think, as a mom, you need to evaluate your child's request and decide whether or not it is feasible (sp?) to comply at the time. You cannot just do whatever your child wants when your child wants - it is not realistic. There is a fine line and there needs to be balance.

I'm sorry if you felt ganged up on, but I thought your comments were a little harsh so I wanted to add my own $.02 in.


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## velcromom (Sep 23, 2003)

It's nice to just be able to get it off your chest now and then with people who get it. Thanks, ladies! Knowing other moms are feeling and experiencing the same stuff, helps me not take it all too hard when it's going down.

As for there not being anything to do about it, of course there is. Lots of stuff. But sometimes we just have to blow off steam, then we can get to the business of problem solving or just gathering our patience.


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## sunshine's mama (Mar 3, 2007)

i actually tape recorded myself talking the other day to make sure that i really don't sound like charlie brown's teacher.....

we have had an ok couple of days.....


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## ~Boudicca~ (Sep 7, 2005)

I love my daughter so much. Zoe is like my best friend, my little sidekick, my sunshine. She makes me laugh and smile just as much as she pisses me off. But I have to say...

4 SUCKS!!!!!!!!!

I would take the terrible 2's, 3's whatever any day. I can honestly say she never drove as crazy as she does now. I have been going to therapy for the last 3 months to work on childhood issues/parenting skills/anxiety, and it is helping my cope with her and her spirited 4 year old stuff so much better.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rainbowbird* 
I just wanted to say, "This too shall pass." Our DS is 4.5 and we just came out of a similar phase. As he emerged from it, he suddenly had all these new skills and maturity. He began getting really interested in poetry and rhymes and is making them up now all day long.!

That's so interesting. Mine has done something similar with the Rhyming and spouting out random letters and wanting to know what they spell. And it's been really, really, really rough! Hugs to everyone.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *425lisamarie* 
Like I said, lots of people here like to group up together and INSIST there is NO OTHER WAY to all agree about something. You can defend all you want, but sometimes the problem is partially that the parent wants things the way they want them, not willing to bend.

I just think it's funny, there is like this click of mothers around here, "Oh lets just all support eachother and agree this age sucks and there is nothing to do about it."

When you say I have never dealt with "this kind of child" who knows. Maybe I do every day and deal with it better/different. MAybe I have perfect kids









For my part, I really don't have any other advice except to sympathize. I didn't want to read and not post when I'm going through the EXACT same thing. The back scrathing, the tantrums, the strange demand in the middle of dinner (and it's something they KNOW you want them to do)

I'm living these very things on top of weird sensory issues - socks with the seams in the wrong places, all pants that are too tight, pre-school now insisting on shorts, or tights under dresses (did I mention all waist bands are too tight?). On top of this, seeing all of the other children who seem to be more pliable and receptive and all of the other mothers who calmly repeat their requests and then calmly take their kids to time out. And I have thrashing, tantruming writhing child, I'm trying to remove to keep them from disturbing others (Sunday school last week where I was the teacher and she trantrummed for 25 minutes of the 50 minute session while I tried to deal with 4 other 4 year olds!).

And yes, I feel the same way. I'm here working 40 hours a week and everyone else appears to have these well-behaved children. All of the other mothers on my block stay home (or work very part-time) and send the kids to preschool a few mornings a week and I look at my little strong-willed redhead and I wonder if it's really me that's the problem.

My latest bit of fear-thinking is that if we don't resolve these issues now at 4, we're going to revisit this when she's 13 and she won't just run 1/3 of a mile away, but she'll be out the door and on the streets! Like everyone else, I'm totally drained and it's helpful to know that even mothers who stay home and even ones with multiple children and who subscribe to a similar philosophy of giving lots of freedom and meeting requests as they are able have the same sorts of problems.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

I't's been awhile since I had a 4 year old. Now I have two. (My next youngest is 11)

I swear these two tag team me to see who can get me crazy and hauled away first.

They climb on everything. Have melt downs. Scream, whine, cry for no apparent reason. No matter what I try, nothing seems to work. And what worked yesterday will not work today.

Caleb goes to sleep quite easily but then chases me around the bed. He has to be touching me all night. I'd just like a little bit of space to call my own even if I am sleeping through it.







Livia sleeps in her own bed but takes forever to go to sleep. Talking, singing, yelling, getting out of bed and changing jammies a few times. Putting socks on. Taking socks off. Wants her lamb. No, it's the bear she wants. Forget it, she wants the tiger. Nightlight on. Turn it off. ARGHHHHHHHH!!!! Just go to sleep already!







:

I'd forgotten what 4 year olds were like and now I have TWO! I love them dearly, would not trade them for anything in the world, but what I would not give for a little less of a struggle with them!

It doesn't help any when everyone else's suggestion is to spank them....


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

For me it has been helpful to see that others are going through the same thing. I don't think "there's nothing we can do about it" is the conclusion. I think the conclusion is , "It's not just him (or me)" but that there is a developmental componant to it as well.

After we had to leave theparty the other day, I was sobbing in the car. I was so heartbroken to be having such a hard time with my little guy that I LOVE SO MUCH. I just hate it. It is so different from the two's when you could talk them out of things, or even just scoop th em up or refocus. Now there is so much intensity. The requests are so unreasonable (did I mention that ds wasn't even done eating when he wanted his teeth brushed? It was like he wanted to brush his teeth between eating his biscuit and his corn.) The melt downs do seem to be about control. I want you to do this for me now (even though I've done it myself a hundred times)!


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

The developmental idea makes sense to me, DS has learned so much in the past 6 mos or so. I think a lot of his frustration comes from wanting to do everything for himself but not being allowed to. For example, he wants to cut his own hair, and carry his brother around the house.







I'm not willing to bend on those things, and he's past the age where a doll or a fake hair cutting kit will do the trick.


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## Sylith (Apr 15, 2002)

snipped a bunch for brevity

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ellien C* 
On top of this, seeing all of the other children who seem to be more pliable and receptive and all of the other mothers who calmly repeat their requests and then calmly take their kids to time out. And I have thrashing, tantruming writhing child, I'm trying to remove to keep them from disturbing others (Sunday school last week where I was the teacher and she trantrummed for 25 minutes of the 50 minute session while I tried to deal with 4 other 4 year olds!).

And yes, I feel the same way. I'm here working 40 hours a week and everyone else appears to have these well-behaved children. All of the other mothers on my block stay home (or work very part-time) and send the kids to preschool a few mornings a week and I look at my little strong-willed redhead and I wonder if it's really me that's the problem.

Oh, yeah, I feel you on the first part. My kid is SOOOOO NOT receptive to time out. We tried the whole 1-2-3 Magic thing for a few months... every single time we did time out, it was a giant screaming flailing fight to the bitter end. He wouldn't go to, or stay in time out unless physically compelled to do so. EVER. No matter how many times we did it. We eventually abandoned it altogether.

And, yeah, look, I'm a SAHM, and my son is with me all the time. I have wondered if he'd do better if I were WOH and he went to school all day







:

DS still has some really bad days, but he seems to be ageing out of some of the worst of the F---ing Fours







Still, the hardest part for me has been finding ways to still like him, at least some of the time. I *love* him with everything in me, but... wow, it is hard to live with him, and it can be so hard to appreciate his positive qualities, or enjoy his company. Anybody have any suggestions for that?


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## starbound25 (May 25, 2006)

So THIS is where I should have put my thread








I just posted this in GD

today I asked for 10 minutes of alone time in my room to watch a few minutes of tv while the baby slept and her and her sister painted, I set up all the paint stuff (which she loves to paint) and she did it for about 5min then came in my room and started rolling around near me, on me, etc, I asked her nicely to give me 5 minutes to relax, I honestly dont think this is unreasonable to me to ask, so she doesnt leave, I tell her in a calm tone to play in the living room or to paint, again she doesnt leave

well thats how it started, she went off, then I tell her if she keeps it up she is going in time out, ok she keeps it up, time out, screaming kicking flipping out, tell her to stop or the toy she got at preschool is getting put away for the day, keeps screaming, toy up on shelf, flipping out over toy, time out over, she tells me she hates me, back in time out, flip out, now in time out in room, kicking door, banging wall, wake up baby, throwing books in room, tearing sheets off bed, I go in tell her she needs 4 minutes of quiet time then she can get out, set timer, she throws timer at wall and screams in my face, etc etc etc, I want to throw her against a wall, never would but really want to, start to cry call DH he says he doenst know why she pushes me so much (this has been for about 9 months now several times a week)

she has always had a temper I remember at her 18month check up asking the doctor if there was terrible 18months before terrible 2's, she will be 5 in Jan and it just gets worse

she fights w/her sister constantly, is wonderful w/ baby and is an angel at preschool

when she is sweet she is THE sweetest girl you could ever meet, when she is mad/angry/being naughty its like the devil worked its way into my child

I could have taken bits and pieces of SO MANY of the responses here, and YES is it good to see we are not alone
I do wish there were more answers, maybe we can figure out some together,
OR on the days we have good days post our observations about the day??
Make this an ongoing thread like a PP suggested??

I RIGHT there with you all, lets figure this out!

WE ARE GOOD MOTHERS WHO LOVE OUR KIDS!!!!!!!!







:


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## Starflower (Sep 25, 2004)

all around here!

I agree that 4 is a developmentally difficult age for both the kids and their parents! My DD is 4 years and 4 months old. (Now that I see that age written out, it reminds me that she's always been a bit early on her 6-month developmental pendulum swings.)

I actually found this thread while trying to figure out where to post a gripe about my DD after she purposefully peed on the carpet in the family room behind her art desk. Yeah, we've been having some regressive potty issues lately, but accidents are one thing. This was completely different. AAACK!









We've been having a tough time since July, about a month after her 4th b-day. She and I had a really scary fall together in a friend's garden. DD was shaken up And I somehow managed not to squish her, but (long story short here) I am currently 2-1/2 weeks post-op from a surgery to fix my wrist as a result of this accident.

I am right-handed but I haven't had much use if my left hand since the accident and this soft tissue injury takes a long time to recover. Why am I explaining this? Not for sympathy, really!







It's because I've noticed a huge change in DD's behavior since the accident. I used to just physically scoop her up and hug her when she started getting totally out of control and unhappy. She weighs 41 pounds. There is no way I can do that now - and I know part of our problem is that she feels scared I can't rein her in when she needs it.

Add that to the regular F'ing 4's stuff and we've been having a wild ride over here lately.







:

I think today's peeing incident actually stemmed from DD trying to get my attention as well as her showing me that she's in control. Amazingly. I did not yell at her tonight. I just cleaned up the mess (while she said I couldn't get to it because the desk was too heavy for me to move - yeah right, it's Step 2). We had planned a train trip to visit some out of town friends, but DH ended up with work "emergencies" and we had to change our plans completely. DD doesn't do so well with transitions.

Interestingly enough, this evening, after I was able to spend a little time with DD and give her some mommy-hugs, her behavior improved immensely. This was one instance of GD working well. The rest of our day before this? Not so much, mostly because I wasn't able to step back from things before. But some days are just hard, KWIM?

In conclusion of this wordy post, I think it's extremely important to have a break now and then just to recollect oneself in order to care for oneself. If I don't do this I end up feeling resentful - then I feel guilty about feeling resentful. Not good, but it does wake me up to what's going on. (The accident was a cumulative effect of multi-tasking and not taking care of DD's mommy - me!)

My advice for when your DC makes you so angry it's hard to remember why you love them? Look at them while they are sleeping. That works for me at the end of the day. (No naps over here in ages so maybe I'll print out a picture to use during the day time.)

One last thing (really!) - DH and I have noticed sometimes that when DD is acting out aggressively (hitting & kicking us, etc.), she seems to be asking for some physical attention and often responds well to tickling, chasing/tag-type games, and more "hands-on" kind of play. Usually this ends up being with daddy, but sometimes she wants to "rough house" with mommy, too. DD is very tactile though, so some of it may just be her personality.

Hope that helps. It actually helped me to collect myself and regroup a bit! Thanks and







to us all and our kiddos in the F'ing 4's!


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## velcromom (Sep 23, 2003)

I wanted to post that we had a fairly good day yesterday - for the first time in months ds2 actually played contentedly for a couple of stretches. No shrieking drama! I got to talk on the phone for 5 min uninterrupted!! Perhaps I saw some light at the end of this tunnel... giving him more positive hands-on time may be paying off & helping him feel more secure. Lots of EFT too. To have a good day for once was so nice.


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

Wow, yesterday was BAD. DS was a crazy man after school, I think he was tired. We decided to take the halloween decorations down, he was all for it - until I took a ghost down. He flipped out. He wanted the ghost hung back up. I told him he could keep the ghost and hang it in his room. It was just a piece of tissue that he drew eyes on. He was not having it. He threw himself on the floor (his newest trick) and screamed at the top of his lungs. The he started spitting so he went into time out. He stood on the chair and screamed for a while so I asked him to go to his room for quiet time. He screamed for a while, but stayed in the room, then after about 10 mins he came out and seemed fine. About 5 mins later he was flipping out again because his little brother was looking at him







This went on for most of the night.


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jilian* 
Wow, yesterday was BAD. DS was a crazy man after school, I think he was tired. We decided to take the halloween decorations down, he was all for it - until I took a ghost down. He flipped out. He wanted the ghost hung back up. I told him he could keep the ghost and hang it in his room. It was just a piece of tissue that he drew eyes on. He was not having it. He threw himself on the floor (his newest trick) and screamed at the top of his lungs. The he started spitting so he went into time out. He stood on the chair and screamed for a while so I asked him to go to his room for quiet time. He screamed for a while, but stayed in the room, then after about 10 mins he came out and seemed fine. About 5 mins later he was flipping out again because his little brother was looking at him







This went on for most of the night.

Sounds like a typical day at our house!







: The only thing ds would do differently is rip the ghost up, then proceed to scream about how it's broken for an hour.
Seriously, there's some days that I count the hours until dh gets home. Then I start counting the hours until bedtime. *Everything* is a major tantrum with both kids lately. Ds1 whines for hours on end over an alleged "boo-boo on my finger". Ds2 attempts to jump off of counters, then when I move him he flings his body to the ground and screams about how I "pushed him down".








Sigh.


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## bobica (May 31, 2004)

subbing!

dd can be the most amazingly wonderful, sweet, funny thing. OR, she can be 4. moods can change on a dime. i can't keep up with all the questions and incessant talking.

i find that we definitely feed off each others' moods which makes for a craptacular combination







PMS was misery this month & she & i had a horrendous week! she doesn't give dh nearly the misery she gives me and i know part of it is that his feathers just don't get ruffled the way i do but i also think we're just wired really similarly which can be great & awful all at once.

it's so good to hear similar stories! i question myself all the time!!!


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## lovemyfamily6 (Dec 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *L&IsMama* 
Seriously, there's some days that I count the hours until dh gets home. Then I start counting the hours until bedtime.

Totally. Almost every day. I just posted a huge long thing in the GD forum. I am at a loss about how to deal with this age without losing it.


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## veg n mama (Aug 29, 2007)

I would tell him that if he cannot listen to you and follow your easy request then NO MORE PLAYING dinasour at all. If he continues... he's to sit down and be quiet for 4 minutes and think about another quieter game to play while daddy is sleeping. If he does it again... then he isn't allowed to play dinasour in the house.


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

I countdown until bedtime some days too, but it gets depressing when there is still 7 hours to go







Luckily DS has began playing alone in his room when I ask him to. When he's really pushing my buttons and I'm at the end of my rope I either ask him to play quietly in his room or put a TV show on for him







: We have DVR and I record Clifford and Little Bear for emergencies.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Ds went through a strange peeing stage, too. He's been potty trained for years, but for about 2 weeks he was peeing everywhere. He stood on his brothers bed and peed all over his sheets (what???). I was totally unprepared for this. Wasn't an accident, but how can I really control his pee?? He went behind a desk on his carpet a few times too, then just stopped.







: He's been spitting, too. That is really hard for me to deal with. Being spit on just violates something inside me-- but he knows that and it seems to be a way for him t o say "I'm REALLY mad." I get that, but I still don't want to be spit on.

We 've had a good weekend (though, we did have a bit of a battle about Halloween decorations, too!). I'm trying to be careful to keep food in his body, but so often he just doesn't want to eat, then seems to have a hard time from being hungry. We are working on hugging each other when he feels bad instead of lashing out at me. He agreed that that was a better option!


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

My ds spits on his sister all the time. Today she came in to see me and had chewed up carrot all over her head. I have routinley seen him spit water on her. He also does it to me. He also coughs in peoples faces so they can "see."

it sucks!!!!


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## twopinknoblue (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bobica* 
subbing!

dd can be the most amazingly wonderful, sweet, funny thing. OR, she can be 4. moods can change on a dime. i can't keep up with all the questions and incessant talking.

i find that we definitely feed off each others' moods which makes for a craptacular combination







PMS was misery this month & she & i had a horrendous week! she doesn't give dh nearly the misery she gives me and i know part of it is that his feathers just don't get ruffled the way i do but i also think we're just wired really similarly which can be great & awful all at once.

it's so good to hear similar stories! i question myself all the time!!!

You describe my DD and myself almost exactly. I get a much harder time from her than DH does, but he doesn't get upset and feed into it as much as I do. DD and I are extremely alike as far as personality goes, and we butt heads all of the time. I went through the same thing with my mom, but now we are the very best of friends (so at least there's that to look forward to







)

And the part about questioning yourself.....I hear ya sister. Just before I logged on here I was crying to DH about how much I suck at being a mother to my 4 yr old.


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## Starflower (Sep 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
My ds spits on his sister all the time. Today she came in to see me and had chewed up carrot all over her head. I have routinley seen him spit water on her. He also does it to me. He also coughs in peoples faces so they can "see."

it sucks!!!!

My DD does both of these things. She's mostly stopped spitting on us, but she'll still do it on the floor or on the furniture, sometimes on the dog.









DD also does the "cough" in peoples' faces and when she's mad, she'll either "bum" us by sticking her bottom out at us, or more often lately, she'll blow air through her nostrils at us - annoying and rude at best, completely disgusting at worst.









Guess maybe she's not so weird as I thought.


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

Wow, so many of these stories sound JUST like my 4 yr. old!
He's a very, very sweet, affectionate kid. He has lots of friends, gets plenty of time outside every day, loves his brother to death, but sometimes he just gets out of control. He even tells me, "I can't stop!" when he's just freaking out tantruming or crying.
The most irritating thing is the crying-- he will start sobbing at the drop of a hat. If someone speaks to him too sharply, "WAAAAAAAH!" and it takes several minutes to make him stop. I've started sending him to his room when he starts because it grates on everyone's nerves and he just can't cry ALL the time! I swear, 5 minutes of picking up toys takes 20 minutes because he cries every time I ask him to do anything!

One thing that has been helpful lately is his observation that when I get cranky, he gets cranky, and vice versa. So we've been trying not to let that happen in either direction-- if I'm getting cranky, I'll say, "I'm getting cranky now." He'll say "Well when you get cranky it makes me cranky too!" so I'll say, "How about you finish picking up your toys and give me a few minutes of quiet time so I can stop being cranky?" and it works! It wouldn't have 6 months ago, but it does now. We're both learning how to deal with each other's personality and how to maintain a happy, healthy relationship.

I'm actually thinking 5 will be okay. It's getting better. The "F#^& you!"s and "I hate you!"s are few and far between these days, hopefully not to return for another 10 years.


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

Today was just awful.

It started out OK... I had an unexpected day off from work, so I kept DS home from school (he was a little under the weather and I needed to take him to the doc for a refill on his allergy meds). The morning was fine, we had lunch with my Dad, went to the doctor, went shopping, then we came home and tied up a bunch of wood bundles for the recycling pick-up... and then things started to suck.

The mosquitos were biting so I wanted him to come in the house rather than playing outside because he always wants Benadryl spray and can't have any right now because he's already being medicated for allergies. Anyway I made him come inside, so he had a screaming fit.

He also had screaming fits over me wanting to watch a TV show, me correcting him for being too rough, various other indescrections, and finally for UNFOLDING all my FOLDED laundry. Yeah, I was a total shrew to him all evening, but that last one took the cake. Of course, he bawled the whole time I made him put away the laundry, but I was about to freaking lose it.

I feel totally unequipped to deal with this right now. I want us to have positive interactions, but it's just not working out.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twopinknoblue* 
Just before I logged on here I was crying to DH about how much I suck at being a mother to my 4 yr old.

Me too


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## velcromom (Sep 23, 2003)

*sigh* two steps forward, one step back...

Ds got mad while drinking and dumped his entire juice on the floor. He was fine one second, an instant later, furious. There was no chance at all for me to do anything to help him or stop him.

I just went to a meeting for the county's preschool/ece workers and we learned about a program that teaches social/emotional skills. It sounds like just what I need for my four year old. It systematically introduces the concepts of empathy, identifying feelings, managing strong emotions and problem solving. It is being taught to teachers at every level so that they can use & teach emotional skills in age appropriate ways all through the grades. But I can see that using it at home would likely have the most impact. I wonder if there's a resource just for parents that would be useful as a guide for those of us who aren't in areas where this program is being used.


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## olliepop (Jun 26, 2007)

Quote:

Interrupting DH and I when we talk. If I say in a minute he will yell "Mommmiiieee!!!" until I snappishly ask "What IS IT DS???" and he will say "Nothing"
My 4 year old dd used to interrupt us constantly at the dinner table. We were also interrupting ourselves to remind her to say excuse me. That wasn't working, so we came up with a sign to remind her to say excuse me. I would touch my nose with one finger. Then another sign to show her that I heard her lovely request and would answer her as soon as there is a pause in the conversation.

It was like this:

(Mom and Dad having conversation.)
DD: Mom!
(Mom touches nose.)
DD: Excuse me.
(Mom touches ear.)
(DD waits.)
(Mom answers DD.)

The first few times we did it, I didn't make her wait too long. I wanted to show her that it will work. Now that she's used to it, she can wait a few minutes until we're done talking about whatever it is we're talking about. We've been doing this for a few months now and all I have to do now is touch my ear. Hope this helps someone. I'll be







: for more solutions too!


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## ~Boudicca~ (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twopinknoblue* 

And the part about questioning yourself.....I hear ya sister. Just before I logged on here I was crying to DH about how much I suck at being a mother to my 4 yr old.









Oh, I've had that conversation with my husband too. My therapist told me the other day to go easy on myself, and she is so right.

How do these little people make us feel so completely inadequate?


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *olliepop* 
My 4 year old dd used to interrupt us constantly at the dinner table. We were also interrupting ourselves to remind her to say excuse me. That wasn't working, so we came up with a sign to remind her to say excuse me. I would touch my nose with one finger. Then another sign to show her that I heard her lovely request and would answer her as soon as there is a pause in the conversation.

It was like this:

(Mom and Dad having conversation.)
DD: Mom!
(Mom touches nose.)
DD: Excuse me.
(Mom touches ear.)
(DD waits.)
(Mom answers DD.)

The first few times we did it, I didn't make her wait too long. I wanted to show her that it will work. Now that she's used to it, she can wait a few minutes until we're done talking about whatever it is we're talking about. We've been doing this for a few months now and all I have to do now is touch my ear. Hope this helps someone. I'll be







: for more solutions too!

I MUST try this. Thank you!


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happyhippiemama* 
I MUST try this. Thank you!

I'm gonna try it too. They use something like this at DS's school. It is the peace sign, and it is supposed to mean peace and quiet. I can think of a few other signs I'd like to use instead of the peace sign when DS interrupts me for the 20th time!







:


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Thank you everyone for keeping this thread going. I really need it.

DH and DS pick me up from work at 5:30pm. It's a 30 minute commute with traffic. DS talks (and interrupts) DH and I the whole car ride home.

Before I get in the car, I ALWAYS give him a hug and a kiss before jumping in the front seat. It's draining because I haven't had time to transition from Employee-->Wife-->Mommy

Because they BOTH (DH and DS ) require my attention *at the same time*. DS will start asking questions, I try to answer them patiently with as much information as I can(sometimes, I just.don't.know. the answer to his questions







and he will have a complete meltdown if I don't know so then I start making things up enough to satisfy him)...then DH proceeds to tell me about his day. DS interrupts and asks "What's that Mommy?" "Is that a Police?"

So I've been stopping DH in mid sentence to answer his questions (hoping that was the last question...but it's not!).

So when I become firm with DS and say "DS, Mommy is talking to Daddy okay?" He then starts kicking the back of my chair (in the car). And kicking it hard!

DH yelled







: at DS yesterday for kicking the back of my seat. He apologized to him but he was frustrated as it was dealing with bumper to bumper traffic.

So, I'm dealing with that. Kicking my chair when I'm talking to DH to gain my attention.

And again, he refuses to go to sleep. Last night, he went to bed at 12:30am. I tried laying down with him and tried to pretend like I was sleep (you know to make it boring for him) and when I peeped my eyes open, he was wide awake! After I've layed with him for 30 minutes.

So, to keep from being resentful because I hadn't taken care of myself (had dinner, had a hot bath and wash my hair to get ready for the next work day), I got up, kissed him and told him to good night).

He starting crying for me to come back and I did until he finally passed out...at 12:30am...

But I understand the culprit there (a 5:00-5:30pm power nap) which is something DH cannot control. He and DS leave the house at 5:00pm to come and pick me up from work and DH says the minute he buckles in DS he's fast asleep. And he gets to me by 5:30 so that's a good 30 minute nap. Which is ALL DS needs for his second wind for the evening and he goes non stop.

That's why I'm so tired all of the time.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisac77* 
I feel totally unequipped to deal with this right now.

You've hit the nail for me. I couldn't quite figure it out, but there it is. There are lots of good suggestions here, I just need the time to internalize them.

Between work and home, there never seems to be enough time to reflect.

But now I have a starting point.








to us Mamas today.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *olliepop* 
My 4 year old dd used to interrupt us constantly at the dinner table. We were also interrupting ourselves to remind her to say excuse me. That wasn't working, so we came up with a sign to remind her to say excuse me. I would touch my nose with one finger. Then another sign to show her that I heard her lovely request and would answer her as soon as there is a pause in the conversation.

It was like this:

(Mom and Dad having conversation.)
DD: Mom!
(Mom touches nose.)
DD: Excuse me.
(Mom touches ear.)
(DD waits.)
(Mom answers DD.)

The first few times we did it, I didn't make her wait too long. I wanted to show her that it will work. Now that she's used to it, she can wait a few minutes until we're done talking about whatever it is we're talking about. We've been doing this for a few months now and all I have to do now is touch my ear. Hope this helps someone. I'll be







: for more solutions too!


I'm going to try this, thank you!


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jilian* 
I'm gonna try it too. They use something like this at DS's school. It is the peace sign, and it is supposed to mean peace and quiet. I can think of a few other signs I'd like to use instead of the peace sign when DS interrupts me for the 20th time!







:


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## MomInFlux (Oct 23, 2003)

OMG. DD will be 4 in two months, and I'm losing my mind. I still love the child, but I don't like her very much right now







: I think I'll read this whole thread and hopefully be reassured that it's not just MY child...


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## koofie (Sep 23, 2003)

DD is a bit rebellious but we have had good luck dealing with this at home. Our problem is school, specifically naptime. DD1 cannot nap. She just does not need it and the few very few times she does, she goes to bed late. Like, really late.

At naptime, she refuses to listen to her teachers. She is up off her cot, defiant, loud and a general nuisance. I understand that it is from her boredom, and I have been trying everything to get her to behave. We have a behavior/chore chart. She has a behavior chart at school. She has rewards form a good day (mac n' cheese, chocolate milk, tv time, and bigger rewards like right now we have a Cinderella outfit her mamaw sent her waiting for her to earn it (4 great days in a row or 5 good days). Tonight we have her on extended time out (like in a chair with a book ect) because she had SUCH a bad day. I send her a note in her lunch everyday to remind her to have a great naptime and that we love her. She has books, coloring books, and paper for naptime.

I don't know what to do. I have tried just about everything, and it is now embarrassing to take her. I am a teacher in an alternative school and I see 7th graders with stepped up behavior just like this, and it is truly horrible to see my kid doing the same thing (except only to a 4 yo extent).

I wish I could just stay home and take DD out of daycare, but we need both of our paychecks (we have already cut back, but we are also trying to buy a house to get out of the condo).


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## bobica (May 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twopinknoblue* 
DD and I are extremely alike as far as personality goes, and we butt heads all of the time. I went through the same thing with my mom, but now we are the very best of friends (so at least there's that to look forward to







)


Me too! Ok, only 20 or so years to go...... where's that foot tapping smilie???









We've been working on being respectful of each other needing time/space. She's gotten much better at vocalizing when she needs "private time" or even telling me "can you not be in here?!?" when i walked into the living room







:

I had a HUGE talk with her a few weeks ago when i was at the end of my rope. I explained my anxiety in terms of feeling like my skin hurts & it making me feel very very grumpy & needing a break. i'm learing to stay calm enough to use more descriptive language when i need the space.

I have a MUCH tougher time with transitions than dd! I need decompression after i get home from work & picking her up from school. it's just like "What About Bob?" .... baby steps....baby steps....

This thread is very helpful for me. I can feel very alone in my frustration sometimes. My 2 oldest friends are SAHMs and one of them is the very model of gentle parenting and overall calm & love. She's my idol!







The other does struggle more but she definitely handles the stress much better than I do. I've got a hair trigger a lot of the time & it's not fair to dd.

Of course, i don't think it's fair to her to be nasty to me because i won't allow her to stay in the shower for 90 minutes!


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

I'm so relieved to see this. In the last month DS1 (3.5) has gotten very very difficult to deal with. It's nice to see it's not just us.


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

Well today was definitely better... I resolved before I went to pick him up from school that I was not going to make mountains out of molehills and to let things ride. It helped. We only had a couple of minor meltdowns and I made an effort to spend time down on the floor with him. Luckily he wasn't into kicking me today which has derailed many of our floor encounters in the past.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hottmama* 
One thing that has been helpful lately is his observation that when I get cranky, he gets cranky, and vice versa. So we've been trying not to let that happen in either direction-- if I'm getting cranky, I'll say, "I'm getting cranky now." He'll say "Well when you get cranky it makes me cranky too!" so I'll say, "How about you finish picking up your toys and give me a few minutes of quiet time so I can stop being cranky?" and it works! It wouldn't have 6 months ago, but it does now. We're both learning how to deal with each other's personality and how to maintain a happy, healthy relationship.


The toy room has been an absolute disaster for about a week. I'm tired of stumbling over everything but I also am tired of being the one to clean it up.

So yeasterday I talked about being cranky, how I don't lime being cranky, how they didn't like me being cranky.

I asked for the twins help in cleaning the room so we all wouldn't be cranky.

Guess what? They did it! No screaming, no fighting, no tears, just cleaning! I am amazed at how well they worked together and got it done!

They even helped me straighten up the rest of the house too. Just so we wouldn't all end up cranky.

Very good idea hottmama! I think I'll keep trying this and see how it goes!


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## Starflower (Sep 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DragonflyBlue* 
The toy room has been an absolute disaster for about a week. I'm tired of stumbling over everything but I also am tired of being the one to clean it up.

So yeasterday I talked about being cranky, how I don't lime being cranky, how they didn't like me being cranky.

I asked for the twins help in cleaning the room so we all wouldn't be cranky.

Guess what? They did it! No screaming, no fighting, no tears, just cleaning! I am amazed at how well they worked together and got it done!

They even helped me straighten up the rest of the house too. Just so we wouldn't all end up cranky.

Very good idea hottmama! I think I'll keep trying this and see how it goes!

As my 4-yr old DD would say "Big thumbs up!"









I just wanted to check in here because I really like this thread.

Yesterday DD & I fought a bit, mostly due to my own unrealistic expectations. (My lesson of the day? If you take your 4 kid to a pottery painting place, don't expect to do anything artistic of your own. But at least the melt-down was just vocal and I didn't have to buy any broken stuff!)







Yeah, it's funny now - but yesterday I was seriously on the edge of my sanity.

Today was pretty good. I sure love my DD.







:


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## twopinknoblue (Feb 22, 2007)

Hi mama's, just checking in. DD and I have had a good week. It has of course had it's ups and downs, but we've had far more ups this week







.

Reading all of your stories has really helped me to get a grip on this whole situation. Knowing that my DD isn't psychotic, and that her behavior is extremely normal has helped me to take a much calmer approach to dealing with her. When we are in the throes of a tantrum I keep reminding myself of all of you guys, and keep reminding myself that I am not alone in this, that it will pass, and to just let it go.

I hope this thread is helping yo guys out as well.


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## twopinknoblue (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Starflower* 
Yesterday DD & I fought a bit, mostly due to my own unrealistic expectations. (My lesson of the day? If you take your 4 kid to a pottery painting place, don't expect to do anything artistic of your own. But at least the melt-down was just vocal and I didn't have to buy any broken stuff!)







Yeah, it's funny now - but yesterday I was seriously on the edge of my sanity.

this is funny, actually, painting pottery is one of the few places that DD and I don't fight at all. She gets totally involved in her project, I get totally involved in mine and we really enjoy each other's company. When we are having a particularly rough week we leave little sis home with dad on a Friday evening and head out to paint, it's a good way for us to connect when we've been at each other's throats all week. Our only pottery painting fights happen because DD wants to paint the one thing in the store that costs $50 plus the studio fee.....she's no Picasso, I try to keep her to the $5 items


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twopinknoblue* 
When we are in the throes of a tantrum I keep reminding myself of all of you guys, and keep reminding myself that I am not alone in this, that it will pass, and to just let it go.

I hope this thread is helping yo guys out as well.

It really is. I thought about everyone's post last night and reminded myself I am not alone as DS was kicking me. It kept me from bursting into tears.


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## Ravin (Mar 19, 2002)

My DD is given a very clear boundary (we have to be quiet, Daddy is sleeping), a choice of solutions (an action she can take that's acceptable, like going outside, or a consequence she won't like, such as time-out), and then I count out warnings (I count to five, then the stated consequence is enacted). I try to use distraction/redirection before resorting to a countdown, but when DD is engrossed in herself, it doesn't always work. For a redirect, I'd have suggested that a dinosaur stalking prey would need to be very quiet to sneak up on it, then tell him I saw a herd of tasty brontosaurs in the backyard, maybe T-rex should go hunt there. A physical demonstration never hurts.

Ignored, "Go outside, or play quietly." followed by a countdown gets attention. Somehow, DD always knows I mean business when that count starts, because I always follow through. (In this case, I would take her outside if she wasn't quiet, and if she resisted, I'd give her the choice of outside or a time-out, which is generally the consequence for getting wound up/hitting or throwing a tantrum.)

If she makes the good choice, we talk about it later and I reinforce WHY it was a good choice (thank you for going outside, Daddy needs his rest and we don't want to wake him up), and if a bad choice, we talk about it after time-out (I spur her to come up with why she should have chosen a different action, or at least what a better choice would have been because she's still fuzzy on "why").


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

I tried something yesterday that worked. When I got really upset with DS I said "I am going to leave the room and take some deep breaths because I'm feeling angry. I don't want to yell, so I'm going to take deep breaths." I left the room, took deep breaths and came back in and all was well. He got to see that I was at the end of my rope and he changed his behavior. Then, later that night HE said he needed to leave the room to take deep breaths! He did, and it worked. I was thrilled


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## starbound25 (May 25, 2006)

I'm glad the 4 yr olds have calmed down lately! I too have had a really good week my DD I'm freaking a little though because she will be 5 in two months and her sister will turn 4 the same month







:
but I do try to redirect, what has worked more times then not is me saying "I'm not going to fight with you, I'm not going to yell, I'm not doing that anymore, you can take a time out, you can go in your room or you, whatever, I'm not going to fight" I think a lot of the time she was just bored or restless and liked to fight with me in some weird way, I dated a few guys like that








dont really get what she gets out of the fighting though, she was not attention starved or anything, the 4 yr old brain I will NEVER get no matter how many kids I have!!


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

I find that once you mention your difficulties with your 4 year old, the other moms of four year olds have a ton of stories to tell. Why didn't I know that this year was going to be so hard? We had a good day. A friend came over and we managed to go out for pizza with no major breakdowns from either kid.


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## Sylith (Apr 15, 2002)

DH lost it with DS1 about 3 nights ago, after he found me in tears and really at my wit's end. DH issued a series of dire threats if DS didn't change his attitude and quit screaming/snarling/ignoring/assaulting us.

Well, I hate to say it, but DS has been making an obvious effort, and is much more pleasant to be around. I don't feel either DH or I were at the top of our parenting game or anything, but I'm secretly relieved.

I feel like we failed the big GD test, but I've been feeling that way for awhile now. I expect he will have lots to tell his therapist in 20 years.


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

To be honest, GD doesn't work that well for us either. I've tried but DS has sensory issues and it is a whole different ball game with him. I'm partially to blame too, because I can only ask him to put his shoes on/brush his teeth/get dressed so many times before I start yelling or talking in a mean tone. We don't have the luxury of postponing our activities because DS doesn't feel like getting dressed that day. Something about being blatantly ignored just bothers me, it feels disrespectful. So we use some, but not all GD techniques, and we are not opposed to time-outs. They work well to calm DS down when he's spiraled out of control.


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## zansmama (Feb 17, 2006)

Okay, i haven't read the whole thread, but I just saw the bit about time-outs... DS ( 4 of course) has been having a lot lately, and he is so willing and accepting of them, I almost think he likes the help to calm down. He really does get out of control, and he explained to me once that he "doesn't know how to calm down"...


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## twopinknoblue (Feb 22, 2007)

We use time-outs too, and while it's not considered GD, it certainly isn't discipline in my opinion. We don't use time out as a punishment, but as a way for everyone, including mom and dad, to get control of themselves and the situation. We don't make her feel ashamed for going to time out, and we dont' even call it time out, or the naughty chair, or any of the other names people give it. We simply take her to her room, and say that we all need a break so that we can get control of our emotions. It works for us, but of course, not always.

I know this sound crazy, but my new tactic, that's been working, is to continually repeat to myself "I am calm" when I feel myself getting worked up. It's kind of like a little mini meditation, it blocks out the screaming/shrieking/crying and really calms my mood. DD's been trying my patients several times over the past 2 days, and using this technique, I haven't raised my voice to her once.


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## Sylith (Apr 15, 2002)

Do y'all have the drama queen thing going on? So often, little things spark long, drawn-out, melodramatic expositions of woe from DS. Today it was play-doh. He had made something from play-doh and left it to dry out (on purpose, we had further plans for it.) This morning he noticed that as the play-doh dried, it had cracked. In spite of anything I could say, he worked himself into a state, crying louder and harder, and eventually throwing himself down on the couch and wailing that he didn't want to go to his friend's house for lunch (as we'd planned,) and that EVERYTHING WAS RUINED.

I have a hard time being patient with this, and an even harder time not making fun of it.


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sylith* 
I have a hard time being patient with this, and *an even harder time not making fun of it.*

bolding mine.

thank you for this. I don't personally feel this pull, but DP does, and struggles with it a lot.


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

OMG I hear you on the whining. Oh the whining.


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## starbound25 (May 25, 2006)

"everything is ruined!" oh yes I hear that too haha


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

Yes, gotta love the whining. DS1 has been known to throw the mother of all tantrums because his little brother was looking at him, or even worse, laughing at him. Oh the horror! DS2 adores him, so this is an ongoing thing.

Our big issue these days is dinner time. DS1 cannot seem to eat without making a monstrous mess. It drives me nuts! IMO an almost-five-year-old should be able to eat nicely without creating a disaster. But my almost 5 yr old likes to play with his food. I've had to start watching him like a hawk and giving him a warning, then asking him to leave the table when he starts to purposely make a mess.


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## mlec (May 29, 2005)

I'm too stressed to even read this whole thread right now....I just need to vent about my 4 yo dd. UGH! I feel so guilty about it but she bugs the ever-living sh&t out of me. My husband works late and I am losing.my.mind. by the time he gets home.

Then her dramatics keep everyone focused on her unpleasantness in the evening and thru/o the night. Make it stop.







:


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## isisreturning (Jul 16, 2007)

glad to have found this thread, i'm also struggling with my 4 year old - interrupting, constant talking, whining, balking at any request, and so on. i've been trying so hard to implement GD & unconditional parenting principles, do playful parenting and so on, but it's so so hard for me. the underlying theory makes so much sense, and when i can be playful and lighten up and let go of trying to control too many things and demonstrate to my ds that i love him unconditionally, then things really do work pretty well.

... and then real life kicks in, and it's 8:05 am and i'm trying desperately to get all of us packed and out the door so i can get the kiddos to daycare in time for breakfast and get myself to work at a decent hour (because if we don't make it out the door in time for breakfast, then i have to feed him at home, which will set us back another 45 minutes at least, making me even later to work...) - and even though he's been up since 6:45 am and i've given him lots of prompts, and lots of attention, and helped him get dressed, and let him watch his favorite PBS show, and given him juice and a tide-me-over snack - he still gives me some kind of grief about getting out the door.

i know i know i know the underlying need is for: my attention, connection with me, not having to go to daycare, etc etc. but i work, and i eventually have to get to work each morning, and at some point i just need to get his patootie in the vehicle so we can go! (meanwhile, i'm doing all this while juggling my 5 month old's need for nursing, clean diapers, non-spit-up-on clothes, etc.). my dh leaves the house at 7:15 am so he's not available to help at the critical "leave the house" time. and, he's less supportive of GD et al, so when i try to debrief with him, his response is that i need to "show ds who's boss". which isn't that helpful to me...

a lot of mornings i am in tears by the time i get everyone buckled into their car seats and can finally pull out of the driveway. the worst is when i get to the daycare one minute past the end of breakfast and they've already stopped serving and of course my stash of breakfast bars that i keep in the car is empty and i can't leave him at school with no breakfast. ARRGHHH!

i just really sympthasize with everone else posting here. i feel like i have way too much going on and i'm not succeeding at anything. i'm not sure what the answer is - i know there is a solution - but i haven't found it yet. without making drastic life changes, i suspect the best i can do is hang on and wait it out - this phase too shall pass...

hugs to the other mamas of 4-ish year olds!


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## koofie (Sep 23, 2003)

For breakfast when we are late, I keep a stash of small pancakes in the freezer (homemade or store bought







: ) nuke 4 or 5 of them for 45 seconds, wrap them in a paper towel, and Ari eats them on the way to school. She usually gets there in time for breakfast, but I'd rather he have too much food so I feed her at home. Alternatives are a bag of cereal or a breakfast bar. On rare occasions we have time for cereal or eggs at home.

I am lucky that Ari sleeps forever in the am (except weekends), so I wake her about 20-30 minutes before we leave. On the rare am she is up early, I have found that I can't do TV because she can't pull herself away, so I have to give her jobs. She picks out the baby's clothes, brushes the dog, cleans her room or makes her bed, does some of her homework, or some other task. Idle time = problems.

I hope you can use something here to help your mornings...







:


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## Glittergal (Feb 17, 2003)

Subbing...
I'm so glad to have found this thread. My DH and I have been having the most retched time with our 4 DD and it's go to know this seems par for the course. We were just saying, this must be our punishment for always bragging about how sweet and easy our DD is, lol!

So I noticed nobody mentioned any meltdowns about the clothes...surely we're aren't only ones experiencing this. DD will now not wear jeans (too tight and she can't move, even when baggy) or anything but dresses or velour pull on pants. She has had 3 pairs of velour pants but now one pair has become too "tight" and is down to 2. We just moved to England and it 's cold, wet and we walk everywhere, so she needs to wear warmer clothes. Oh yes, and she is refusing to wear a jacket. She seriously will sit in the stroller FREEZING rather than put on a coat. UGH!

And we've been experiencing lots of nightwakings with weepy snits about this and that..like the sheet doesn't cover one toe or she needs her back scratched, etc. Then her weeping wakes her brother, who then wants to nurse and then she is furious he is taking my time, etc etc.

Anyway, she is really sweet and we do have fun together but I really really hope we leave alot of this behaviour behind as we head to 5.

Has anyone tried anything with a reward chart? We were looking at the Melissa and Doug one and I think it might work if we're consistent with it, but I'd love to hear others experiences.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

I have had the worst morning so far. It seems my 4 yr old wakes up on the wrong side of the bed EVERYDAY. He is just mean! He copys me, he tells me no to everything, he is just really unpleasent to be around and I want to go back to bed!

Does anyone have info on WHY the 4's are so hard for *the child?* I feel like if i could get in his head it would help me so much. I dont have any info like that.

On top of it, I am also dealing with my first "terrible 2" even though I try not to label it as such...It really is awful.







She freaks out when I put her in the bathtub because she wants to do it herself. She threw an entire container of yogurt at me this morning, etc.


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## twopinknoblue (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Glittergal* 
So I noticed nobody mentioned any meltdowns about the clothes...surely we're aren't only ones experiencing this. DD will now not wear jeans (too tight and she can't move, even when baggy) or anything but dresses or velour pull on pants. She has had 3 pairs of velour pants but now one pair has become too "tight" and is down to 2. We just moved to England and it 's cold, wet and we walk everywhere, so she needs to wear warmer clothes. Oh yes, and she is refusing to wear a jacket. She seriously will sit in the stroller FREEZING rather than put on a coat. UGH!

And we've been experiencing lots of nightwakings with weepy snits about this and that..like the sheet doesn't cover one toe or she needs her back scratched, etc. Then her weeping wakes her brother, who then wants to nurse and then she is furious he is taking my time, etc etc.

We have the clothes issue here.....DD will not wear jeans either (on the rare occasion I can get them on her I have to be sure to pack extra pants because she's likely to be crying to take them off about 30 minutes after putting them on. My daughter will only wear skirts or pants that have elastic waistbands, and are made of soft material.

We also have the coat/jacket issue. We've been informed by our ped that being cold does not make people sick, so we go the GD route on this one and let her face the natural consequences of not wearing a jacket.......she's cold. Of course, I always bring one with us so it's there when she requests it, but the whole coat thing is just one of those issues that I have no energy left to fight.

And, oddly enough we've been having the occasional waking for odd things like being covered back up (which she can do for herself, but would rather scream for us to do it), having her back scratched, etc. So, I feel you on this one. And as much as I hate to give in to some of her ridiculous demands, we have a little one too, and like you, I don't want them both awake, so instead of fight it I just do what she's requested so we can all get back to sleep.


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## bluezephyr (Jan 12, 2006)

We've been having many of these same problems...what's worked for us is to find ways that the limits get set naturally usually using the other child as the motivation--probably won't work for many of you! There is a morning routine and if one of the girls (3 and 4) won't go potty or get dressed or put on her shoes, she simply gets left out of the next step. As soon as she's left out and I'm having fun with the other one--silly dance while we brush our teeth or whatever--the stubborn one immediately melts down because she's not included and suddenly wants to do the thing she previously refused to do.

Our cat is an outdoor cat and needs to be fed every morning the 4 year old loves to do this. We have her do it right before getting in the car. If she dawdles earlier and we're late, she doesn't get to feed the cat, I do it while my partner drives them to daycare. It's only taken two times of not being able to feed the cat, and reminding her is sufficient motivation. But...sometimes I do strap the little one into her carseat screaming. I try to postpone the temper tantrum by leaving her out of things, but some mornings she seems to need a battle and we do need to get to work on time, so sometimes that's what happens. We're mostly GD, but there are limits, adults do have to be at work on time, and sometimes that means not having a twenty minute discussion about whether or not we're riding bicycles before leaving. We're already late, we have a short discussion, and if that's not fruitful, I figure she probably just needs something to be mad about. This seems to be the difference between the 3 year old and the 4 year old--the 4 year old can grasp these things cognitively and make a different choice next time and remember why....the little one can't.

We also don't tolerate attention grabbing interruptions of adult conversations very well--and they've stopped though it took awhile. They'll come bring us some game they're playing while we're having our only ten minutes of the day to talk and we explain that we're talking, they're welcome to sit in our laps and be quiet, or go play. They go play. If they stay, we ignore them or just scoop them up, kiss them, and keep talking, over and around any screaming there might be. There are limits, just like there are limits with hitting or pulling the dogs' tails--adults are allowed to set some limits about their availability and what the safety rules are.

Most of this is a complete change for both of them since they've only been with us a few months now and their previous living situation had little routine and a lot of room for them to make demands. Interestingly, the four year old is really getting the limits, the routine, and the schedule. In some ways, increasing the firmness of those limits (with a calm voice and no judgment) and the quickness of response (sometimes count to three, sometimes just, "okay, then you can't do x until y" and moving on to the next step) has made a huge improvement over a few weeks ago. I think it's now clear to her when there's room for negotiation and when there isn't. I'm realizing that when we don't communicate the routine and limits clearly it can be confusing to her and she thinks that she can negotiate or change things when they're out of her control. I'm wondering if this predictability makes it less important for her to control them. She still gets lots of choices--Like, I ask what kind of thing she wants to wear (pants, skirt, etc) and then pull out a few options. But, there are lots of things in this world she can't control. One thing I've observed is her really working on figuring out how the world works--three days at home and then four at day care. We do x before y. Etc. The mastery over the knowledge of how her world works seems as important as making decisions. The other night she had a complete meltdown because we watched a movie before bed and didn't read her books. She was able to communicate that she doesn't want us to do this again--she always needs her books. We affirmed this and have agreed--and learned our lesson.


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## twopinknoblue (Feb 22, 2007)

That doesn't really work here, DD2 is only 16 months old, and I have to do a lot of things for her (like brush her teeth, get her dressed, etc.), so I can't really use her doing those things as motivation for my 4 year old. Plus, when there is an opportunity for that, it seems that dancing around having fun with DD2 isn't motivation to get DD1 moving, it's just fuel for the fire. Not only does it not motivate her to do what was requested, it sends her into a fury, and quite honestly, I don't like to play the girls against each other like that. Sisters have enough to compete about on their own, competing for mom and dad's attention doesn't need to be added to that. Not to mention, there's understandably already a certain amount of jealousy that goes along with going from only child status to big sister status, and I don't wish to exacerbate that jealousy by making a big deal out of having fun with her little sister to her exclusion.

I am glad that you've found something that works for your family. That's ulitmately what all of us are searching for..........unfortunately we are still searching for what works for us.


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

This morning I tried a new stratedgy that seemed to work. Instead of yelling at DS 20 times to get dressed I told him he knew what he had to do before we could leave: get dressed, brush teeth, and if there is extra time then have a small snack before school. Then I gave him a countdown every 5-10 mins. Then we had 5 mins left and he had not done anything to get ready (not surprising) so I said "I'm gonna get my sneakers on, change Evan's diaper and then we will be getting into the car to leave, you need to hurry to be ready in time" and he hurried. He ran around like crazy and just as I was buckling DS2 into his carseat DS1 came running out all set to go. I'm gonna try it again tomorrow.

He was upset that he didn't have time to have a small snack before school so maybe tomorrow he'll get ready in time to have the snack. He knows the snack is only available if he has "extra" time. He gets breakfast right when he gets to school so it isn't a big deal if he misses the snack.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Can someone help me with this?

So, does your 4-year old play independantly very well?

I'm trying to figure out if this is a personality thing vs. a maturity thing?

As soon as DS wakes up (7am), he starts with Mommy, Mommy, Mommy, Mommy and "are you ready to play?"

He asks me this all day. And I do play with him. As much as 2 hours throughout the day and it's never enough.

I've tried setting him up with activities and then leaving him to go cook dinner etc. and then *5 minutes later* he comes looking for me asking "you ready to play"

I deal with this all day (when I'm home from work) and sometimes, dinner is late and he's hungry and has a total meltdown because dinner isn't done







:

He's an extroverted child and it seems he has to be *engaged* at all times. I can't properly take care of myself because I'm not meeting his "needs" (to be engaged) and it's wearing down on my health.

For instance, after a long day, I want to take a hot bath...this is AFTER DS has been fed, bathed, and played with. When I proceed to get in the tub, he comes looking for me asking me to come hold him while he watches PBS Sprout.

And I'm hot and sweaty from meeting his needs all day. If I don't, he starts whining, I cave, and feel the resentment creeping in. It's a visicous cyle.

Last night, my SIL went into labor and called me to come and get niece (Age 2) and nephew (Age 7). I thought, "great, DS can play with his cousins and take the focus OFF ME"

Boy was I wrong! DH and I picked up the kids late and as soon as we got in the car, DS starts terrorizing his younger cousin, who starts crying. We had to make a quick stop to the grocery store and DS was running up and down the aisles and not even DH could get him to calm down.

Maybe it was the late hour (11:30pm) but I was exhausted and crashed about 1am.

Hopefully it will be better this morning.


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## twopinknoblue (Feb 22, 2007)

Independent play is something that has just recently started with DD. She's always needed to be engaged and entertained, which as you know, can be very draining. Now that her little sis is big enough to "play" they spend a lot of time engaging one another, and when DD1 is tired of playing with DD2 she usually heads off to the toy room to play on her own. It's very refreshing!!

How does your DS do if you let him play in the room you are at, if you aren't actually playing with him? This was kind of how we started things with DD1. Mommy has to cook dinner, you can choose a toy and play in the kitchen while I cook.....I'll be the voice of one of your figures, but I can't actively sit and play. Often, just being in the same room, having me semi-play was enough to get her going and she'd end up taking over the voice of my figure as well.

Also, as her ability to use her imagination has grown, so has her ability to play independently.

I know exactly what you are going through, and I feel for you. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of good advice, as independent play just sort of progressed naturally for us. But, I do have a lot of sympathy. Hang in there.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

thank you twopinknoblue!

His playroom is connected to the family room and I'm just a few feet away. But even that's not enough! For once, I just want to sit down and read a section of the newspaper...just a section.

The minute I do, he comes over, move the newspaper away, gets directly in face and say "Mommy, what are you doing?" "You ready to play"

Thank you for the hug, I needed it.

If anything just venting and letting it out on this board helps me feel better.


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

DS just started playing by himself, and he'll be 5 in Feb. I think part of the reason he plays alone is because I *cannot* play with him as much as I used to since DS2 was born. He was kind of forced to learn to play alone, now he does it on his own, but only for very short periods of time. I know the feelings of guilt because I feel bad when I just don't have the energy or motivation to play. But I think it is good for children to learn to play on their own for at least short periods of time. It helps you to get alone time to recharge your batteries and be a better mom. Have you tried saying "Mommy needs a few minutes alone, I cannot play with you for X mins"? He should be old enough to understand that and maybe give you a little time alone.


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

Back to time outs--
We have always been against using them, and when we tried in the past, it just didn't work AT ALL. My son would rage, scream, kick and punch the door, throw things, etc. when we tried time outs at 3, early 4. But lately (within the past month) it's really been working-- we don't have to drag him there, he stays until the time out is over, and he behaves better afterwards. And I'm a LOT less likely to lose my cool and start yelling if I can stop the behavior and get 4 minutes of relative peace before it gets to that point.
So I think, for us, time outs are GD because the only working alternative I've found is yelling. My kid NEEDS consistent limits, and I just can't enforce them without consequences. He's told me he prefers time outs to having privileges/things taken away (for breaking a major bike safety rule a couple weeks ago, we took his bike away for a week and boy, he hated that-- but it was necessary IMO).
But that might not help any of the moms with younger 4 yr. olds. It certainly wouldn't have helped us 6 or 9 months ago. I am SO looking forward to 5!


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## twopinknoblue (Feb 22, 2007)

Jillian - I think the addition of DD2 to our family helped DD1 on her way to independent play as well. She had to play alone out of necessity sometimes. In the begining though, there was a lot of laying around on the couch pouting when I couldn't play with her because DD2 had needs that needed met. DD1 finally figured out that she was going to have to play alone sometimes if she wanted to play.

newmomme - I hear you about being able to vent. Even when noone has advice, it's nice to have someone to listen.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jilian* 
Have you tried saying "Mommy needs a few minutes alone, I cannot play with you for X mins"? .

I'll admit, this works because I tell him this when I'm about to reach my breaking point...and he senses my mood and kind of backs away from me









I go in the bathroom, lock myself in and cry. But it feels so good when I do. Really. When he senses my breaking point, he *will* give me 10 mintues of space to regroup and recharge. And Mamas, that's all I need. 10 minutes.

Which is good for an Introvert such as myself (I get energy from being alone).

I've seen the title Raising Your Spirited Child and I'm going to pick up a copy.

Thank you Mamas.


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## twopinknoblue (Feb 22, 2007)

hottmamma - timeouts work for us too, although we don't call them time outs, we call them breaks. And really, as you described that's what they are, it's a break for DD be able to cool down, and for mommy to be able to cool down, then we can talk about what's going on with cool, level heads. Otherwise, things escalate into a screaming match between us,which really isn't useful for either of us. I know a lot of people don't like time outs, but like you, it's our best option to eliminate the yelling.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Where do you do your time outs? I can try that...


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## twopinknoblue (Feb 22, 2007)

We just take DD to her room for "a break". We don't do time out in the strict sense that you go to a secluded area and sit there for 4 minutes or what have you. We just take her to her room tell her we need a break from each other so we can collect ourselves and we close the door. Sometimes she sits on her bed and continues to cry and scream. Other times she lays on the bed and stops crying and actually thinks about things. Other times, she starts playing and completely forgets why she was there in the first place.

We also don't have a time limit for our "breaks". We go back to check on her after a few minutes, if she's ready to come out and talk about the situation, she does, otherwise she tells us she isn't ready and needs more time, so we close the door and leave her again for a few more minutes.

The key for making time out/breaks work is to be consistent with using them. Let your child know that this will be the result they can expect when they are acting inappropriately. We also don't threaten it, we just do it. She doesn't get "stop this or else you are going to your room", the tantrums start, we pick her up and carry her to her room, period.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
Can someone help me with this?

So, does your 4-year old play independantly very well?

I'm trying to figure out if this is a personality thing vs. a maturity thing?

As soon as DS wakes up (7am), he starts with Mommy, Mommy, Mommy, Mommy and "are you ready to play?"

He asks me this all day. And I do play with him. As much as 2 hours throughout the day and it's never enough.

I've tried setting him up with activities and then leaving him to go cook dinner etc. and then *5 minutes later* he comes looking for me asking "you ready to play"

I deal with this all day (when I'm home from work) and sometimes, dinner is late and he's hungry and has a total meltdown because dinner isn't done







:

He's an extroverted child and it seems he has to be *engaged* at all times. I can't properly take care of myself because I'm not meeting his "needs" (to be engaged) and it's wearing down on my health.

For instance, after a long day, I want to take a hot bath...this is AFTER DS has been fed, bathed, and played with. When I proceed to get in the tub, he comes looking for me asking me to come hold him while he watches PBS Sprout.

And I'm hot and sweaty from meeting his needs all day. If I don't, he starts whining, I cave, and feel the resentment creeping in. It's a visicous cyle.

Last night, my SIL went into labor and called me to come and get niece (Age 2) and nephew (Age 7). I thought, "great, DS can play with his cousins and take the focus OFF ME"

Boy was I wrong! DH and I picked up the kids late and as soon as we got in the car, DS starts terrorizing his younger cousin, who starts crying. We had to make a quick stop to the grocery store and DS was running up and down the aisles and not even DH could get him to calm down.

Maybe it was the late hour (11:30pm) but I was exhausted and crashed about 1am.

Hopefully it will be better this morning.

I struggle with this also. My ds is always asking me to play with him and it breaks my heart to be saying "no" to him all day. I do play, but I also have chores to do, and a little sister to play with as well. And 8 months pregnant makes me sit down ALOT. He does not play sitting down.









Doesnt it just break your heart? I always feel like he th thinks I dont love him!


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## neveryoumindthere (Mar 21, 2003)

Will be back to read the entire thread. But just wanted to say I'm here!

The absolute worst is the fighting with her sister. I KNOW she's frustrated but dd2 (2 years old) is here to stay! I just feel like yelling GET OVER IT!
Last night she wanted her OUT OF HER ROOM NOW (I'm talking major yelling/screaming at like 10pm) though dd2 was just looking at something not even touching it. AND she wanted me to read her a book at the same time.







:

I said "dd1, I cannot do both at the same time. If you want dd2 out of the room I have to go take her to bed and put her to sleep. That takes time. You can sit and look at your book while I do that" --insert full out crazy girl crying fit--I couldn't handle it because I was SO wanting to just SCREAM. So I just said "I'm going to put dd2 to bed.I'm sorry that you are upset" and left.

UGH.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

I remembered something I used to use when the other kids were younger that I've been trying with the twins and it seems to be helping a bit so I thought I'd share it.

When they start the whining, fussing, demanding, I use this:

Me: How many people am I?

Them: One

Me: How many hands do I have?

Them: Two

Me: Then what do you need to do?

Them: Be patient!

We do it in a sing song voice and it has almost always worked well. It was kind of funny the other day when my 17 yo dd heard the twins and I doing this. She laughed and said "Hey! I remember that!"


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Can anyone tell me why my 4 yr old acts up MORE when I spend the whole day pining over him and lavishing him with attention?

I thought that was supposed to make it BETTER??????!?!?!?!?!!?


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
Can anyone tell me why my 4 yr old acts up MORE when I spend the whole day pining over him and lavishing him with attention?

I thought that was supposed to make it BETTER??????!?!?!?!?!!?









:


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## velcromom (Sep 23, 2003)

Maybe it gets better before it gets worse? Perhaps he's testing the new waters.

My ds2 has had a fairly good week. Only one or two meltdowns a day and usually in the evening when he's tired. One thing that may have helped is that his older brother is done with soccer season so he's less tired, gets home earlier, and has been willing to play with ds2. Having some one on one time really seems to be taking the edge off. Here's hoping it ushers in a new phase of positive days!!


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

At some point, I inevitably crash though, because I spend my energy without having a chance to recharge...between the 4 yr old and the 2 yr old...and the baby belly. LOL.
And I just crash.

Mabye my kids will look back on this time and think "woah, thats what pregnancy does to a person! I think I'll wait a little while longer!"







In case they need motivation not to have sex at age 12 or whatever. (Thats whats happening these days right?







: )


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

We actually do call time outs "time out" and they last 3-5 minutes. We can say "You need a time out because you are not listening" and he will stomp up the stairs to his room, where he will either whine and cry, stand around asking "has it been 4 minutes?" every 30 seconds, or try to persuade his brother to come play with him (which is allowed as long as he doesn't leave his room).


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

We've had somewhat of a weird breakthrough. I decided to be very clear with ds about what he can do when he is angry. He cannot call me "stupid freaking girl" (I'm so embarrassed to type that) or spit on my face or scratch me. He can scream as loud as he wants and I promise not to say a thing. It seems to be working.

Today he was in a good mood and kept wispering to me, "You know what is _really_ mean to say?" "What?" "Stupid freaking." "That's right, that is really mean to say. What can you do instead?" "Yell really loud." We've had this conversation many times in the last few days and I've seem him actually use some self-control when he is angry. He is just yelling and spitting on his own chin now







. I think it is a good start.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Just wanted to add about our new clothes issue. Now all shirts have to "scary" (saber tooth cat, trex, spider, ect), but he doesn't have a ton of scary shirts. I try to keep up with the laundry, but some days, there just aren't any scary shirts left. Oh, and pants need pockets.


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## cpop (May 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor* 
The only upside today is that he is apparently an angel at school. .

This is sooooo my dd1.
Angel at school, demon at home.
She is so polite and lovely with everyone but me and dh. Her preschool teacher actually said to me how she encourages dd to get angry and stamp her feet and yell, because she thinks she's too accomodating to other kids and adults. HA! Of course this resulted in her shouting and stomping her feet at home and still being an angel at school. Of course!

I guess it is good to know she feels safe at home, but some days . . .


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## Glittergal (Feb 17, 2003)

Flor - yes, our clothing situation is becoming ridiculous as we have very few clothes that are soft enough and appropriate for winter.

Something that works well for us when we're trying to get out the door in the am that I wanted to share. DD frequently wants to play in her room before we need to go, so I tell her to quickly brush her teeth, get dressed so she can play while I get DS and myself ready, pack snacks, etc. She really seems to respond to this as shie gets that the faster she moves, the more time she can play. Then when I call her to go, all she needs to do is put her shoes on and she usually comes right down.

Something that is driving me crazy is sleep issues. She is waking a lot, with demands about the sheets, her baby etc (we all are in one happy family bed, lol!). Lately she wakes up, totally pissed if I'm facing her. She wants to be pressed up to my back ONLY. DS is on the other side, nursing on and off and of course also snuggled up. Naturally I have to move! I simply cannot stay in the same position all night. I've tried to tell her this is uncomfortable to mommmy, she can move away if she wants (or even go to her bed in her room, ha ha). Any ideas on this?


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

I've been reading all of these posts and feeling thankful that DS is a wonderful sleeper, then last night rolled around







He woke up at around 2 screaming "mommy!" so I run in and he's sitting on the floor in his room with the lights on. He's covering his eyes and saying the light is too bright and he wants it off, so I shut it off and put him back to bed. He goes right to sleep so I leave. An hour later he comes running into the room saying "I heard a beep, my closet light beeped" I try not to laugh and go in to tell him everything is fine. I think he dreamed the beep. He's done this before, he's convinced his room is beeping.







DH ended up getting up with him and DS was WIDE AWAKE. He was chatting and just hanging out, at 3 am. It made me laugh, luckily DH was already up because he was having trouble sleeping. Finally DS went back to sleep and slept til 7.

He also has night terrors about once a month, they are really scary. He kicks and screams and is completely out of it. He gets such a look of terror on his face. I hate night terrors. It takes a really long time to calm him down and get him to sleep after one.


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## neveryoumindthere (Mar 21, 2003)

anyone dealing with bedwetting? She has been using the potty/toilet since she was 2 1/2 and yet teh past few months she wakes up at least 2-3 times a night to pee, but almost EVERY night she pees the bed. I am at my wit's end.


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## mommahhh (Oct 17, 2004)

Soooo glad to have found this thread last night. It helped me restore my self esteem.







:

My 4 year old has been a nightmare lately. She's rude (mainly to me) and seems to think she doesn't need to listen to me anymore. She complains a _lot_ and it seems everything sets her off. We do special things just for her (the zoo, the amusement park) and she complains about everything while we're there. Half the time she's started throwing a fit before we even get home after school (a 7 min drive). She just wants her own way on everything. Period. And she's become very bossy. She has a super-low tolerance level. When something isn't working for her she'll throw it. That sucks when it is my laptop.







:

For the past couple of months, she's been having full-on temper tantrums again (thought we were over that??). And often in front of company. Oh joy. She'll throw herself on the floor crying l.o.u.d.l.y and then run up to her room screaming and *slam* the door. And then cry for 20 minutes. Over almost nothing (in my eyes anyway).

Last night took the cake. My mom and dad were over for dinner. She threw one of her fits and I didn't handle it well I'm afraid (PMS). I felt judged somehow (probably my own insecurities) while they sat there watching this unfold. While she was screaming in her room, we sat trying to eat dinner and I felt like I was going to cry. I was angry honestly. I'm so sick of this behavior right now. I sort of ranted about how she's such a brat lately, etc. They already think I shouldn't TTC #2. Of course my dad offered such gems as: "well, you better not have anymore. You won't like it." and "I wonder how ____ manages with 3 kids?". I cried for an hour after they left.







: Then I came here and now I feel better. Hugs.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

I had a thought. Mabye its a no brainer....but lightbulb moment.

I probably saw this on Dr Phil so be forewarned.









Our kids are testing the boundrys of society through us. They feel safest with us (ecpecially mommy) and thats why they are acting up. They _have_ to learn about the world through their family, its a safe place to test the waters.

Couldnt think it and not say it.









I think I could be better at handling the outbursts if I thought of them in that way.


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## velcromom (Sep 23, 2003)

Yeah, so it's a good sign that they feel safe enough with us to let out all their ugly feelings and challenge the boundaries... somehow this morning that did not help me when ds2 was standing on his chair at the table screaming and blubbering about not wanting to eat his breakfast. I don't even care if he eats his breakfast, we weren't even in conflict about that. He wanted me to make another breakfast, I didn't have time.

Mommahhh, your dd runs to her room!! Wow I wish ds2 would do that. He seems to think rolling on the floor kicking at things to knock them over while he screams bloody murder is best reserved for the living room, no way he'd take it to his room and deprive us of the show!!







When he needs a break we have to actually pick him up and carry him to a safer space, not fun, rather painful.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommahhh* 
Soooo glad to have found this thread last night. It helped me restore my self esteem.







:

My 4 year old has been a nightmare lately. She's rude (mainly to me) and seems to think she doesn't need to listen to me anymore. She complains a _lot_ and it seems everything sets her off. We do special things just for her (the zoo, the amusement park) and she complains about everything while we're there. Half the time she's started throwing a fit before we even get home after school (a 7 min drive). She just wants her own way on everything. Period. And she's become very bossy. She has a super-low tolerance level. When something isn't working for her she'll throw it. That sucks when it is my laptop.







:

For the past couple of months, she's been having full-on temper tantrums again (thought we were over that??). And often in front of company. Oh joy. She'll throw herself on the floor crying l.o.u.d.l.y and then run up to her room screaming and *slam* the door. And then cry for 20 minutes. Over almost nothing (in my eyes anyway).

Last night took the cake. My mom and dad were over for dinner. She threw one of her fits and I didn't handle it well I'm afraid (PMS). I felt judged somehow (probably my own insecurities) while they sat there watching this unfold. While she was screaming in her room, we sat trying to eat dinner and I felt like I was going to cry. I was angry honestly. I'm so sick of this behavior right now. I sort of ranted about how she's such a brat lately, etc. They already think I shouldn't TTC #2. Of course my dad offered such gems as: "well, you better not have anymore. You won't like it." and "I wonder how ____ manages with 3 kids?". I cried for an hour after they left.







: Then I came here and now I feel better. Hugs.










A line in your post that stood out to me was "She just wants her own way on everything. Period. "

This stage is starting to make sense to me, these last few days. Of course she wants her own way. I want my own way ALL THE TIME. We've just learned to take the dissappointments in life. They haven't. Every little thing is heartbreaking to them. I can shrug my shoulders and say, "Maybe next time" but ds can't do that yet. It seems like this is an important stage. They are starting to grow up and deal with life and, it isn't always happy. You don't always get what you want. It affects other people. I try to figure out, how much is it that ds is getting bossier/pickier/more stubborn, or am I tolerating less from him and expecting more? I think this age is a big transition from toddler to kid. I do feel like he is learning so much right now, both academically and socially.

I'm sorry your parents weren't supportive! Sometimes I think that my parents just dealt with me less than I deal with ds. I cry over him. I somehow imagine my mom sending me off to play with my siblings and pouring herself a martini. I don't know if they took parenting so personally. Maybe it is just perception. I am putting off TTC for at least a year. The years 5-8 were really easy with my dss so I think it might be a good time to give ds a sibling.


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## twopinknoblue (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor* 







I'm sorry your parents weren't supportive! Sometimes I think that my parents just dealt with me less than I deal with ds. I cry over him. I somehow imagine my mom sending me off to play with my siblings and pouring herself a martini. I don't know if they took parenting so personally. Maybe it is just perception. I am putting off TTC for at least a year. The years 5-8 were really easy with my dss so I think it might be a good time to give ds a sibling.


I think this might be a generational thing. I don't know how old you are, but many of my peers and myself have this same perception of our parents. It seems that parenting was very different when I was a child....spanking was the norm, children were not engaged by adults very often, parents didn't take parenting as seriously, yada, yada.

I was just talking to a good girlfriend of mine and she was saying how she and her DH turned down an invitation from her mother to go out and eat because it meant her DC's would get home for bed too late. Her mom told her that that was not the way parenting was supposed to be, that the kids were supposed to adjust to the parents schedule, not the parents adjusting to the kids. I don't know, but IMO, going out to eat isn't worth messing up the whole bed time routine (unless of course you parents live hundreds of miles away and you don't see them often, which isn't the case, her mom and dad live less than a mile from her, so they see her daily).

Flor, you are right, alot of the meltdowns are because our LO's haven't figured out just yet that the world doesn't revolve around them, and it's a hard lesson to learn. And, it's tough for us because as adults we do understand that, and it's hard to put ourselves in their shoes when it seems so unreasonable for them to assume that everything should be their way all of the time.


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## allbrightmama (Aug 8, 2004)

subbing
In the years I have been on MDC this thread is the first I have ever subscribed to and I have only made it through the first page.
Ds (4 1/2) made me cry yesterday. He was so angry and pitching such a fit and I tried to tell him that I loved him and wanted to help him feel better and calmer like the gentle loving boy I know he is. Big mistake. Made him scream louder until he was choking and spitting and telling me that he isn't that boy. He is a different boy now. So then I start bawling. I felt like I had lost my son. I needed this thread SO badly.


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## twopinknoblue (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allbrightmama* 
subbing
In the years I have been on MDC this thread is the first I have ever subscribed to and I have only made it through the first page.
Ds (4 1/2) made me cry yesterday. He was so angry and pitching such a fit and I tried to tell him that I loved him and wanted to help him feel better and calmer like the gentle loving boy I know he is. Big mistake. Made him scream louder until he was choking and spitting and telling me that he isn't that boy. He is a different boy now. So then I start bawling. I felt like I had lost my son. I needed this thread SO badly.









Oh mama, I know how you feel. And it does sometimes feel like we've lost those sweet wonderful children that we once had. You know, in a way your son is right though, he is a different boy now. As Flor said, this age seems to be all about that giant leap from toddler to child.

As I've said to other mama's that have joined us, I don't have a lot of advice (we're right in the middle of this thing too), but I do have a lot of sympathy. Hang with us, this thread has helped me understand what's going on between DD and I and has made dealing with those days soo much easier, hopefully we can make it easier for you too.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Dd is exploring all sorts of different "personalities" too. She has always been a mellow and mature child but the last few months have been getting a bit interesting...... She seems to like to try out all of these new phrases, moods, and personalities on me only







I have had a lot of luck with role playing. When she is in a good mood, we get out some animals and practice dialog. It sounds goofy but it really helps to give her more tools in communication. We also came up with a symbol that I use when we are in public to help remind her when she is edging towards rude or mean to others.

Also, after much discussion, dd and I agreed to have "quiet time" most afternoons. It is usually only about one hour, but dd ultimately decides the length and whether she takes one or not. It seems to recharge her a little, like naps used to WAY BACK in the olden days when she used to take them......

Dh has been on business travel a lot and I think that is really contributing. She seems to have a very hard time towards the end of the absence then REALLY melts when dh actually returns. It can take three days for her to return to anything resembling normal. Last night I made her favorite soup just to cheer her up and she refused to take even one bite. I honored her refusal but I was pretty shocked. This child has never been one to not try something....especially her favorite soup!

And then there are the days when I sneak into the kitchen to make a martini









My parents were also pretty hands off and I think I lean more that way myself. I am not playing on the floor all day. I do my thing, dd does hers, and we are both welcome to join the other at any time but do not necessarily do so on a frequent basis. I find that forcing myself to be more "involved" usually makes this go south pretty fast.


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## isisreturning (Jul 16, 2007)

hugs to all the mamas out there struggling in fellowship together about our dear dear 4 year old treasures. here's how i described my son today in an email to my sister-in-law: "J is his usual wonderful, super smart, strong-willed, petulant, creative, mom-obsessed self and i love him desperately and am peretually frustrated by him all at the same time. i'm learning to be comfortable with paradox and contrast."

i'm feeling like i need to give myself a break and give him a break. neither one of us is going to figure out this whole parent-child relationship thing all at once. and we're both trying to navigate Life-with-a-capital-L while we are trying to love and be with each other. it's hard. and it's a journey. i am growing and learning every bit as much as my ds is. i'm glad we can do it together. that's my positive affirmation/hopeful thought for the day.

and by the way: my ds has definite clothing issues - he will ONLY wear "tie pants" (aka drawstring pants) - NOTHING with a zipper/buttons and so on. sometimes he will deign to wear sweatpants with an elastic waistband, but it has to be a really good day. and it must have a matching t-shirt and/or sweater. and now he's getting picky about how his socks should feel inside his shoes - heaven forbid there's a wrinkle somewhere in there - we'll have to take everything off and start over.

what an age! i wonder what we'll all be talking about in 10 years on the "teenager" thread?? at least we still know where are children ARE and who they talk to during the day...


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

We had such a good day today!

I dont remember if we had a conflict...probably....we usually have at least one. But I am not thinking about it thinking I screwed up.

I think ds fought with me about nap again. But he needs one so I stood my ground respectfully. (Which I am not always...I loose my cool fairly easily)

Yea!!!!!!!!!!!! (Even the 2 yr old.....except the parts where we had to buckle in the car. That is a war she isnt going to win....though she seems to keep trying.







)


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## cee3 (Oct 24, 2005)

I've been reading this thread and you all are really making me feel better about my four year old - I'm not the only one!

I thought you'd appreciate our bedtime struggle tonight. He didn't want to go to sleep because his bed was "too comfortable." Heh. That was after our dinner struggle because he wanted freshly squeezed orange juice to drink. I have no idea where he came up with that - he's never had that before in his life.


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## annekevdbroek (Jun 5, 2005)

Oh - I so belong on this thread. DS1 is 4 1/2 and I have a 10 month old DS as well. *Most* of the time DS1 is actually a great kid. But, this past couple months have been really challenging. Everything that other PP describe: fits, control issues, extreme irrationality, not listening, being oppositional, etc. etc. I find myself yelling, which I reallly don't like. There are days that it is a huge struggle to catch him doing the right thing. I feel like sometimes i nag, nag, nag, nag, nag. The OP post was right on the nail for happenings around here. I know it isn't just me because DS got in trouble at school twice this week for not listening and being highly disruptive (would not be redirected because he "couldn't help" acting up.)

I've started with time outs again this weekend. We haven't used them in a long time. My instinct is that DS1 requires additional structure right now, and that is one way that we provide it.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

time outs seem to be working over here. And I dont like them either. Sometimes I do "time in" where we snuggle on the couch for 5 minutes before he can go and play again.


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## starbound25 (May 25, 2006)

I've been doing the snuggle time instead of time outs too lately, it works better in the moment, instead of her screaming in the time out and kicking the wall I'm squeezing her in my arms kissing her head, its a constant learning journey out here in parenting world!


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

this morning was my fault...but I am not sure how I could have handled it...My ds woke up and made us a "feast" for breakfast. (He put cookies, soup, oatmeal, eggs, pancakes, yogurt, and cheese on the table for us.







) The problem was, he wanted me to make ALL of them. I hadn't had a moment to "pray" or meditate this morning because from 7 AM ON it was endless chatter from ds...I did lay in bed for an hour with him, but I tried to get in the right mindframe and I just couldnt, with all that stimulation. That is something that has been really helping me latley...spending like 5 minutes "getting my head right" for the day...feeling peaceful for a few minutes.

So breakfast didnt go that well because I wasnt making all that stuff! (And he had wanted it to be a special surprise....And I praised him for it, but my actions of putting it all away were enough to alienate him) So I chose pancakes....because I am an idiot.







LOL. Sugar for breakfast! Not a good idea when we have the option of protein.

Then the whole family went for a $200 grocery shopping trip which I didnt plan well because I could not think of a single thing I wanted to eat this week...I have been trying to make a list since yesterday and have not been sucessful. Forgot to take my vitamen B yesterday-that could be why. So we finally needed food and if I wanted dh's help, it had to happen this morning. So I had to go and 'guess' what we could eat for a few days.

The grocery store was a nightmare...at one point, ds jumped out of the cart, RAN to the russel stover candy display, and shoved about 6 pieces of taffy in his mouth before I could get to him.







: (Among a few other incidents...)

I'll leave it at that. LOL. At this point, its naptime in a few minutes and I am taking full advantage. If I can get a good nap, this afternoon is going to to better than this morning.

I am exausted.


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## zansmama (Feb 17, 2006)

Well, ds has been a lot more friendly and eager to please lately, but Oh.My.God he talks nonstop all day long! lovely sweet stuff, but even if it's a beautiful story about a rainbow fairy, I can only listen for so long, kwim?
Getting my head together in the morning is definitely an ordeal, especially since he's decided mama's shower time is the best time to hear a story.
He used to watch some PBS Kids in the am, but I feel like TV definitely gets him into a more hyper, less creative state, so if he doesn't ask, I don't turn it on.... I am really, really trying not to curtail his creativity as much as possible, as long as he doesn't destroy anything. (i.e. no drawing on the walls.)
I just have to get him around friends and other people that he can jabber endlessly to. ( phone calls to Grandma are really, really cool)
He's also taken to being in character for days at a time... right now he's Peter Pan and he's "visiting" us for a while. It kind of helps with the helpfulness: he's a wonderful guest


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## amydep (Apr 18, 2006)

Boy, this thread sure hits home!! DH and I were just talking about how DS is getting so stubborn and whiny and were wondering when he would finally have a day where he wouldn't cry and throw a fit. It is very exhausting, but I have to say it is comforting to know that my kid isn't the only one!!! I am soooo tired of the power struggles and battles. Some days it seems like no matter what we are doing DS wants to do the opposite and purposely does things to get into trouble. But then there are times when he is just sooooo sweet and seems so grown-up.


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## velcromom (Sep 23, 2003)

Thought of something I wanted to share here - I've had fun getting ds to cooperate with small tasks with a little routine we came up with where I exclaim what a problem I have and that I better call a "service person" to help out.. I make a phone call to inquire whether such a person is available and of course, there's one that can come over right now! He knocks on the door, I greet him as the service person and he helps with the task, in character.


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## koofie (Sep 23, 2003)

DD really like to do tasks with a time limit - such as "DD can you go upstairs and get your headband by the time I count to 15?" She races to do it about 9 times out of 10. For longer things, like getting dressed, I give her a count of 60 or 90. I start counting, and then stop when she is gone. As I hear her come back I start back up. Sometimes I count the whole time just so I don't feel like a fraud.

I just wanted to share this as I remembered it in case it helps someone!


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