# the "sleep lady" method=CIO? i'm not sure...



## coloradomama1 (Dec 31, 2006)

dd is 15 mos and we've now endured 8 straight months of exhaustion and i'm looking to make a change but i'm not sure how...i've read all the books and listened to everyone's advice, including lots and lots of CIOers with their tales of blissful sleep







:.

another semi ap friend of mine suggested the book good night, sleep tight by the "sleep lady" and reports amazing success with the method. it includes crying but you NEVER leave your dc's side. from what i can tell, it's similar to jay gordon's nightweaning method but it's used from the first time you put dc to sleep for the night instead of after the first awakening. i have in the past let dd cry in arms and she always passed out within 1 minute of crying and slept soundly but she now wiggles to get out of my arms and tries, without success, to roll around the bed and put herself to sleep.
we would use the sleep lady's method to help dd learn to put herself to sleep and/or transition from our bed to a crib in our room possibly. wishful thinking







!
she was beside herself with exhaustion and said this worked within 3 nights and now her babe crawls to the crib and asks to go to sleep! i'm trying to figure out if this is just CIO in disguise?
either way, i might have to try it because we are at wits end and i feel like dd needs to learn to put herself to sleep since i may be returning to work PT soon and i don't want her missing sleep with an alternate caregiver or CIO by default with me not around to soothe her.
any suggestions?


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## MamaB2C (Nov 20, 2007)

I went about 19 mos of sleep problems with DS..he would go to sleep okay, but wake up numerous times a night (we co-sleep). I read Elizabeth Pantley's "The No Cry Sleep Solution" and some things by Dr. Sears which helped me feel better as a parent knowing I wasn't alone, but did not solve the issue (though instituting quiet time and a consistent bedtime routing helped some). No matter how exhausted I was though, I couldn't bear any form of CIO.

What I finally figured out was that I was fighting DS's natural "clock" and forcing him down too early. One night I simply decided to let him stay up until he fell asleep on his own, and the fact is he isn't ready for bed until 10-11 and takes several hours to wind down from his busy day. Since I started this he has consistently slept through the night...though I let him fall asleep on the living room floor rather than in bed.

It was my mom's idea too, she said my brother hated to go to bed, so she would let him stay up as long as he wanted...he was consistently asleep by 9 pm once she stopped trying to force the issue.

Anwyay, just some ideas. Best of luck to you


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## maryeb (Aug 8, 2005)

Can you tell us more about your nighttime routine? Is your dd getting worn out from the day enough before bed? Are you picking a bedtime or watching her cues?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

It's CIO- no question. Not even in disguise IMO.

IMO it's never okay to CHOOSE to not respond to your child's needs.

-Angela


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## coloradomama1 (Dec 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaB2C* 
I went about 19 mos of sleep problems with DS..he would go to sleep okay, but wake up numerous times a night (we co-sleep). I read Elizabeth Pantley's "The No Cry Sleep Solution" and some things by Dr. Sears which helped me feel better as a parent knowing I wasn't alone, but did not solve the issue (though instituting quiet time and a consistent bedtime routing helped some). No matter how exhausted I was though, I couldn't bear any form of CIO.

What I finally figured out was that I was fighting DS's natural "clock" and forcing him down too early. One night I simply decided to let him stay up until he fell asleep on his own, and the fact is he isn't ready for bed until 10-11 and takes several hours to wind down from his busy day. Since I started this he has consistently slept through the night...though I let him fall asleep on the living room floor rather than in bed.

It was my mom's idea too, she said my brother hated to go to bed, so she would let him stay up as long as he wanted...he was consistently asleep by 9 pm once she stopped trying to force the issue.

Anwyay, just some ideas. Best of luck to you

i've considered this but even on the special occasions where she's up way late because we have people over or whatever, she just stays awake happily and won't go to sleep until i put her in the ergo to reduce stimulation. i.e. i had girls here for a baby shower until 10:30 the other night after a day when she only had a one hour nap and she didn't wind down until i made her. i totally thought she'd crash from exhaustion but nope.


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## coloradomama1 (Dec 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maryeb* 
Can you tell us more about your nighttime routine? Is your dd getting worn out from the day enough before bed? Are you picking a bedtime or watching her cues?


she is def. worn out from her day. we get lots of morning sunshine as per sleepless in america either at the park or at home in the yard. tons out outside play time on a regular basis. she is a very active toddler and doesn't sit still for very long ever!
our routine...(i guess i am picking a bedtime but also watching cues, i move it later if she doesn't seem so tired or had a long nap)
between 5:30 and 6:30- i start dinner as she's playing, we eat with or without dp, she gets naked to run around as i do dishes and clean up toys

6:30-we jump in a warm tub and play a bit, then massage, jammies,
between 7:00 and 8:00 teeth, books, nursing and ?

after nursing is where we fall apart. for the longest time she fell asleep nursing, then it didn't work anymore and sometimes i let her cry in arms for a few minutes after which she slept GREAT, then that stopped working. now, it's taking longer and longer to put her to bed which sucks because she wakes up early and therefore gets less sleep overall. when i try to let her put herself to sleep after nursing by hanging out on the bed she just thinks it's time to play even when she's so obviously tired. sometimes i try putting her in the crib (right next to our bed) to play and last night she rolled around a bit and fell asleep with me patting her back but then woke up again.

long story short, there's no routine after we nurse and the inconsistency of sleep for the whole family is killing us. one night of good sleep a week isn't good for anyone in the family. she's teething pretty bad and i know that probably has something to do with everything but i'm desperate for sleep. critiques of our routine are welcome!


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## MamaB2C (Nov 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *coloradomama1* 
i've considered this but even on the special occasions where she's up way late because we have people over or whatever, she just stays awake happily and won't go to sleep until i put her in the ergo to reduce stimulation. i.e. i had girls here for a baby shower until 10:30 the other night after a day when she only had a one hour nap and she didn't wind down until i made her. i totally thought she'd crash from exhaustion but nope.


Sorry I wasn't clear. I don't mean I let him run crazy until he falls asleep. We have strict "Quiet time" to allow him to wind down, then eventually he lays on his little nap mat and goes to sleep. It takes him hours to get to that point.

Quiet time starts right after bath time (around 7:30-8:00) and includes lowering the lights, putting all noisy toys "to bed", and only playing quiet things like puzzles or with his plush animals, rocking and talking, reading, or watching a movie together. Without quiet time he will wake up every couple hours even if he does eventually drop from exhaustion...as has happened a few times like you mentioned when people were over etc.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

how long has it taken her this long to fall asleep? DS goes through phases where it takes him a long time - like when he's teething or learning something new. During those periods we either
1 -let him stay up until he drops
2 - lie with him but ignore him (not in a cruel way. but we play dead

re: sleep lady. I don't have a problem with nightweaning where you do everything to comfort a child BUT nurse. But from what I understand with the sleep lady thing you can't let them fall asleep with your comfort? so at some point in the process you can rub their back but if they start to drift off you have to take your hand away? (please someone correct me if I'm wrong). I think that sounds torturous for all involved.

OP - what time does your DC nap?


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## GatorNNP (May 17, 2004)

coloradomama1, sounds like you are tired! The sleep fighting and night-waking you are describing are pretty common in the 1 to 2 year old, especially with teething etc. From your post it sounds like that routine was working for a while, but now she isn't gliding into sleepy time like before. Perhaps she is needing some more intense physical exercise, or have you adjusted down to just one daytime nap? Is she sleeping later than usual?

If you really are getting worn out, consider a babysitting exchange with a friend for a few hours one day a week where you can take a nap, this really can give you a boost. Also, can you get your DP to let you sleep in one day on the weekend. Even from like 5am on until you want is a great booster.

I once heard a joke about parents complain about lost sleep, because the baby dictates when the sleep gets lost. We probably sleep more than college students and complain more. I know I get more sleep now than I ever did in school, yet I would get so upset about it with my 1st baby, and now that I have more perspective on it, it just doesn't seem to bug me as much.

Skim through the night-time board and you will find a lot of parents at this stage looking for help.


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## leila1213 (Sep 15, 2006)

Coloradomom - a couple of things I have figured out recently with my 17 MO. We were just like you. Had a great routine (very similar timing), seemed like she was falling asleep nursing, then she was up and about and wanted NOTHING to do with sleep.

1. Make sure she gets some good nursing in at some point BEFORE the remainder of the routine (ie, when I first get home from work, or before bath, etc.).

2. ALWAYS read a book as the last thing before trying to actually get her to sleep. Invariably, if I think she is SOO tired that she needs to go to sleep before the book - add an extra 30 minutes to the job. Many times she will close the book and lift my shirt up, but sometimes I sense she is fighting sleep and I say, ok we're done reading now, time to go to sleep.

3. For some reason, she HAS to get up and leave the room at some point in the routine. She signs "potty" when I'm trying to nurse her to sleep, and sometimes she goes, but a lot of times she doesn't. I'm experimenting with doing the potty before and/or after the bath. But I also think there's something about the change of scenery, that if I just go with it and take her out of the room and come back, she is able to relax. Maybe she wants to make sure the rest of the house is going to bed too??

4. Here's the biggie - When you are sure the routine is over, even if you have to get up after reading the book, TURN OFF ALL THE LIGHTS. We have been staying at my parents' house for about a month, since it's been getting dark earlier, the time change, and there is no closet or hall light that shines into the room. Her baby monitor has a very dim light on it that goes off after 5 minutes or so. She has been getting to bed SO much easier since we have been here sleeping in a pitch-black room. Whenever I turn on a lamp for reading, she resists sleep furiously. It's almost magical to turn off the light and see how quickly she settles.

Hope something here sparks in you and helps your little one get more sleep! Of course, all of it could be a coincidence and she could start teething again and go back to her dark-circles-around-the-eyes ways, but I'm hoping it's permanent! (She's also been napping really well since having more sleep at night and a consistent bedtime.)


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## cotopaxi (Sep 17, 2007)

Hmm, I think actually the method could be CIO for some babies and not for others, if that makes any sense. To me, CIO is when you're denying the baby what they want/need for comfort/help getting to sleep, like if you know your baby nurses down to sleep but you refuse to offer them the breast, or if rocking her and patting her back soothes her but you put her in the crib instead, and she cries but you still don't give her what she wants. So, for the baby that wants to nurse down, be rocked down, etc., this method is CIO.

However, it sounds like you're at a point where you have no idea what you soothe dd or help her sleep; nursing isn't doing it, rubbing her back isn't doing it, laying down with her isn't doing it. And possibly some consistency in how she drops off to sleep each night might be comforting to her. So to me using a variation of this method wouldn't be terrible, provided that what you're doing doesn't seem to upset her more than she already is.

I'm sleepy, don't know if any of that made sense!

I did read the book and some of it made sense to me. I actually implemented quite a bit of it in terms of the bedtime routine, the time for bedtime, and putting the baby down awake while offering pats on the back and verbal reassurance - but ONLY because she tolerated it and in fact had on her own, previously, started to refuse to nurse or cuddle down. She also has decent tips for good "sleep hygiene" -- keeping the bedroom dark, as pp mentioned, etc.

I skipped the "sleep lady shuffle" of moving farther and farther from the crib each night because that would have made DD cry. (I guess that's kind of one of the main concepts of the book, so I wouldn't say I "did" her program!) Eventually she got to the point where she didn't want/need me to do anything but put her in bed, and she now puts herself to sleep completely independently, but she kind of just let me know when she was ready to do that, and I felt better following her lead than a schedule in a book. It took about a month from when she stopped nursing to sleep, not the 1 week that the book wants you to do. Oh, and she still needs me to rub her back to get her back to sleep about 50% of the times that she wakes up at night (the other 50% she talks to herself quietly and puts herself back to sleep), so I still do that rather than what the book says, which is to use whatever method you use at bedtime (so for us this would be just ignoring her at this point, which I won't do).

So... I sort of followed her program except when it led to any crying... I guess what I did was much closer to NCSS really!

Oh, and I wanted to mention to be prepared if you do read the book to ignore any feeding advice, if you BF. She had fairly dumb things to say, like you should think about giving the baby a bottle of formula every day just in case you ever need to get her to take one, then you'll know she can. Um, what? And obviously with her method the baby isn't BF at night at all, so unless it's your intention to nightwean or unless your baby already doesn't need to eat at night, you're not going to be able to follow her program to a T.

Hmm, maybe just skip it, the more I think about it, and read NCSS instead!
Wow, I need to go to bed, I don't think I'm making sense.


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## coloradomama1 (Dec 31, 2006)

D_McG said:


> how long has it taken her this long to fall asleep? DS goes through phases where it takes him a long time - like when he's teething or learning something new. During those periods we either
> 1 -let him stay up until he drops
> 2 - lie with him but ignore him (not in a cruel way. but we play dead
> 
> ...


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## coloradomama1 (Dec 31, 2006)

[

So... I sort of followed her program except when it led to any crying... I guess what I did was much closer to NCSS really!

Oh, and I wanted to mention to be prepared if you do read the book to ignore any feeding advice, if you BF. She had fairly dumb things to say, like you should think about giving the baby a bottle of formula every day just in case you ever need to get her to take one, then you'll know she can. Um, what? And obviously with her method the baby isn't BF at night at all, so unless it's your intention to nightwean or unless your baby already doesn't need to eat at night, you're not going to be able to follow her program to a T.

Hmm, maybe just skip it, the more I think about it, and read NCSS instead!
Wow, I need to go to bed, I don't think I'm making sense.







[/QUOTE]

i finally got the NCSS for toddlers, didn't realize there was one and i love it. i'm thinking now that after the holidays we'll try some of the methods to either move her to a mattress on our floor OR cut down on night nursing while still cosleeping. if things still suck by then, something has to give-i need sleep!
the whole bfing thing was what was holding me back from getting the sleep lady book.


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## Pepe (Jul 7, 2005)

I think you should read the book and consider whether its method appeals to your needs and your parenting ethics. We had tremendous success with it when DS was 17 months old and I had not slept for more than three hours at a stretch since before his birth. I found it far more effective than the NCSS. Good luck!


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *coloradomama1* 
6:30-we jump in a warm tub and play a bit, then massage, jammies, between 7:00 and 8:00 teeth, books, nursing and ? after nursing is where we fall apart.

you received quite a lot of good ideas already but I just wanted to add that for some babies, the bath is quite exciting and does not lead to a restful night. For my dd2, bath is a lot of fun, so much fun she would like to stay in the water forever. It is not - however - something that prepares her for a good night's sleep...


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## coloradomama1 (Dec 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice* 
you received quite a lot of good ideas already but I just wanted to add that for some babies, the bath is quite exciting and does not lead to a restful night. For my dd2, bath is a lot of fun, so much fun she would like to stay in the water forever. It is not - however - something that prepares her for a good night's sleep...

never even thought about that, she loves the water! i don't know though, she gets into a lot of yucky stuff throughout the day so i couldn't put her to bed without one. maybe i could move it earlier in the night, it's the first thing we do though so i don't know how it could be earlier.


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