# Alright…Maya can *you* talk more about expectations?



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Inspired by the Lilyka thread, I wanted to single Maya out and ask her a question I've wondered about for quite a while.

I hear you talk quite a bit about simply asking, and expecting your children to cooperate. You follow that by telling them you're disappointed if they don't cooperate and move on.

Could you talk more about that?


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

:


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

ooh, i'm in....

lilyka, is the seat next to you taken?
















:


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I was saving it for you honey









pull up a chair


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## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

:

I'll just take a seat next to Piglet, on the other side..


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Wow, I feel a little on the spot here but here goes.

You have to understand that I have no problem setting rules in my house.

I don't do a lot of negotating with my kids when they are young, though I believe in doing more as they get older.

In any event, I do set the rules, like for example, I "expect" them to clean up after themselves, or sit at the table while we eat or do their homework when they get home, or be polite to people.

I make it clear that these are my expectations. If they fail to meet them, which honestly does not happen that often, I tell them that I am not happy with them, but that is at far as it goes....I don't really punish. (though I will usual some consequences to protect the person or property of others.)

I do think my kids pick up on the feeling that I convey that I am not going to "give in"

I also feel that they pick up on my complete feeling of confidence that I am the best person to make decisions for them and thus while I may not always be "right" I know I am doing the best that I can and that is ennough.

I am not sure what else to say.

But I am more than happy to answer questions or discuss any types of situations that you want.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

<raising one popcorn-buttered hand....>

How do you make it clear? Do you simply verbalize it?


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

For example,

If we are at the table and someone just gets up in the middle of dinner, I might say "You need to sit down. In our house, we all sit at the table until everyone is done"

or I might say "DD, please pick up your toys now." And if they don't do it after being asked another time or two I would prob start to do it myself and then say:

"DD, picking up the toys was your responsibiity and I don't like that I had to do it. Next time, I expect you to do it when asked."


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

So with the first example, i'm assuming you wait until they are at an age where you believe such a request is doable. so what do you do if they say "no" and take off?

so far it sounds very Anthony Wolf (I think I recall that you liked his book, Secret of Parenting).


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
So with the first example, i'm assuming you wait until they are at an age where you believe such a request is doable. so what do you do if they say "no" and take off?

so far it sounds very Anthony Wolf (I think I recall that you liked his book, Secret of Parenting).


Yes, I am defintely a Wolf disciple.

In the first example, we started making this an expectation prob around 18 months.

I can only think of a very few times that they "took off". What I would do in that situation would be to tell them to come back. If they refused I would let it go right then.

Maybe starting around age 3 or so I'd say something later to the effect of " I did not like it tonight when you just left the table. Our family sits at the table til all are done. Next time I expect you to do that."


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Thanks for posting maya. I always enjoy reading your post and that is pretty much how we do it but I have been on the spot enough today (I shouldn't even be on the computer but I don't feel like moving).


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
Thanks for posting maya. I always enjoy reading your post and that is pretty much how we do it but I have been on the spot enough today (I shouldn't even be on the computer but I don't feel like moving).


Being on the spot feels a little strange doesn't it.

It makes me nervous becuase I am not super AP (though definitely GD).


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## ja mama (Sep 6, 2003)

I read the Anthony Wolf book a while back and it seemed to make sense in principle, but it just didn't seem to work.

All of a sudden my just-turned-5 yo is in tune with that program. If I ask him to pick up his toys (or whatever request I'm making that is his responsibility) and then just stand there waiting and silent, he does it! He grouches and tries to bait me into speaking again, but he does it! My almost three year old has no clue there even is a program. Yet.

Perhaps the age that it begins to show the effects of working differ child to child.


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## Threefold (Nov 27, 2001)

Hey! Chiming in here, even though I am an outsider to the original discussion







:
Maya, I *think* I know what you mean. As a teacher, just coming from a place of expecting to be in charge while teaching is the #1 thing that made me an effective teacher and got my class to listen to me and stay on task, etc. I remember when I "got it" after struggling for a few months with a group of wild 2nd graders in the heart of Oakland. But, I just can't seem to always be on that way with my ds. It takes a lot of energy and I'm often just too tired. And when I do let things go I often am left feeling walked on and disrespected, which is sort of a set up for not coming from the right place. Any tips on that?
Thanks!


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ja mama*
Perhaps the age that it begins to show the effects of working differ child to child.


I think this is true. Though remember Wolf really only suggests the "waiting" technique around age 5 or so.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_dalai_mama*
It takes a lot of energy and I'm often just too tired. And when I do let things go I often am left feeling walked on and disrespected, which is sort of a set up for not coming from the right place. Any tips on that?
Thanks!


I definitely think that as a parent you have to pick your battles (in fact Wolf discusses this) and that as long as you dont' make it a constant habit its ok to "give in"

But he recomends, and I agree, that you need to make your decision quickly whether to battle over it.

That way you can kind of think to yourself "ok I made the decision that this is not worth fighting over."

Wolf gives one example that I just love

DC: I want some candy now

Mom: NO its too close to dinner

DC: please, please, i am sooooooooo hungry.

Mom: (tired and not wanting to deal with the battle the might ensue) You know what dc, I just realized its " National Candy before dinner day" Now this only comes around once every year...so go ahead."

I did that kind of thing exactly once when my kids wanted some junk at the grocery which I never buy (you know those cheap toys in the front)

My kids were so stunned they actually freaked out a little and my oldest was like "never mind." The little one's took the offer, but really did understand that this was not going to be a regular thing!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
Being on the spot feels a little strange doesn't it.

It makes me nervous becuase I am not super AP (though definitely GD).

Oh, I'm sorry you took it that way. I thought it would be flattering! At least know that that is the way it was intended!!! Off to read more&#8230;


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
I think this is true. Though remember Wolf really only suggests the "waiting" technique around age 5 or so.

In fact, I tried the techniques you suggested and they really do work with the 4 year old. With the 2 year old they just do not. I do not quite understand what you mean that you do not negotiate when they are little. With my 2-year-old I just let go a lot and offer a lot of redirection... I don't know, at that age, when they're done eating they're done, I am not really expecting her to stay at the table until we are all done...


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Thanks, Maya. Please know that I'm not trying to dispute you and I'm not asking you to justify what you do&#8230;I find it interesting and I think it might fit my values and even be similar to how I parent in some ways.

I only asked because I had a hard time understanding exactly what you do or why it 'works', yk? I hope you don't mind if I ask a few more questions.

(I guess I'll be checking to see if they have that book in the library as well!)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
I don't do a lot of negotating with my kids when they are young, though I believe in doing more as they get older.

What does negotiating look like for a young (what age is that, btw?) and why don't you do it. What does it look like for an older child (age?) and why is this preferable. What's the developmental shift?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
I make it clear that these are my expectations. If they fail to meet them, which honestly does not happen that often, I tell them that I am not happy with them, but that is at far as it goes....I don't really punish. (though I will usual some consequences to protect the person or property of others.)

I do this to some extent. I ask and try hard to come to a place where I fully expect cooperation (this helps lots!). If she doesn't do it, I try not to assume that I know why but I do talk to her about that later. Sometimes it's more general discussion about what happened but other times I just tell her what happened was not "okay". We then move without mentioning it again unless it comes up.

Incidentally, I've been using the term "not okay" and I wonder how you (and everyone!) feel about this phrase.

Regarding this, does some of this have to be tailored to different levels of sensitivity? I know that I have to word some things very gently for Aya. I think that telling her that I'm not happy with something would upset her but hearing that something is not okay doesn't seem to stress her too much.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
I do think my kids pick up on the feeling that I convey that I am not going to "give in"

Oh, yea. Aya knows the exact level of confidence I have about something&#8230;it's kinda scary. :LOL

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
I also feel that they pick up on my complete feeling of confidence that I am the best person to make decisions for them and thus while I may not always be "right" I know I am doing the best that I can and that is ennough.

Does this also have to come from your confidence about the choices you're making for your children? I know that it helps me tremendously when I am very clear about why I'm asking something and when I'm confident that it's the best thing.

Also, could some of you mention a little more about the Wolf book? Has it been reviewed here?


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

*What does negotiating look like for a young (what age is that, btw?) and why don't you do it. What does it look like for an older child (age?) and why is this preferable. What's the developmental shift?*

I don't "do it" beczuse I believe that really young kids (which to me is about age 4-5) often are disagreeing or seeking something different not because they really want it, but because they are seeking to engage in "battling" just to engage their parents, to seek their time and attention in negative ways to avoid the unpleasant feeling that comes with limits and to test how much power they have and whether a limit will ever be put in place.

I also think that a family can run alot more smoothly when you aren't engaging in "I don't want to wear my red shirt today, how about the blue shirt "no" how about the green shirt "no". Often accompanied by heavy parental sighing. I found that for example by waiting til they were 4 to involve them in their clothing choices, I avoided a lot of the aggravation that I saw my friends engaged in.

I also feel, unlike many here, that it is a parent's job to set the rules of the household. I am not going to get into, "well you don't want to sit at the table 'til everyone is done, how about for at least 10 minutes" Me and dh have decided certain ways we would like to see our family and I am not going to compromise on these. My children really seem to understand this, its not like we usually even battle about it.

I do engage in a "listen once" strategy. So when I have asked my kids to do something and they say "no, I don't want to because of X" I do consider "X" .

Often I will decide I still want what I have asked for and say "Sorry but you need to ..."

For example, let's say DD age 8 gets up to leave the table before we are all done. It might go like this

"Ellie, sit down we are not finished"

"But Mom, its the first warm day and I want to go outside before it gets dark"

I might say "You know, that's true OK.. go ahead"

However, I might also say "Sorry, its going to be warm all week.. Stay here"

Now here is where I "disengage" so if she were to then say

"But it might not be Daddy says you never know with the weather"

I DO NOT then get into a discussion of weather forcasting or how its spring and will only get warming I simply say "Ellie, you need to stay."

If she were then to fuss, I'd pretty much ignore it and move on to other things.

Now am I positive it will be warm all week, that she is not missing out... No. But I don't spend much time worrying about that.

I think my kids know and understand that, and thus we really don't even get into these scenarios very often.

I do think as kids get older (a little starting around age 5 more starting around 10 to 11, and as a rule after age 13) they are really moving to a new status and they must be listened to more and negotiatied with more.

*Incidentally, I've been using the term "not okay" and I wonder how you (and everyone!) feel about this phrase.*

I like this phrase and use it myself.

*
Does this also have to come from your confidence about the choices you're making for your children? I know that it helps me tremendously when I am very clear about why I'm asking something and when I'm confident that it's the best thing.*

See, this is what I don't feel I need. I am confident that there is no one better to decided for them than me...I don't need to feel I am right every time to feel confident that I am the right one to make the decision.

*Also, could some of you mention a little more about the Wolf book? Has it been reviewed here?*

Wolf's basic philosophy has to do with the concept that parents need to disengage from their children when those kids are "battling" for its own sake.

He also has what I can consider to be "dead on" explanations for why children will not (and prob should not) behave as well for their parents as for others, why when a child says "I hate you" you don't need to worry about it or take offense.

He believes that a parent must set limits and that a parent should be "in charge".

However, he does not beleive that being in charge requires punishment. In fact he believes that punishement is not only uneccesary but also morally wrong.

He also has what I consider to be one of the most common sense views of exposing children to violence in the media. He believes that we worry too much about this and not ennough about teaching kids about the real wrongs that go on in the world (he's talking about older kids here).


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

i liked the wolf book. got some useful ideas out of it. it doesn't constitute the majority of my responses (yet; my kids are still young). but i have used his "stand there and wait" approach successfully on my toddler when she has something she shouldn't be playing with and i don't want to grab it from her. he also has a lot of good info about kids and their emotions.


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## Jordansmommy (May 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
i liked the wolf book. got some useful ideas out of it. it doesn't constitute the majority of my responses (yet; my kids are still young). but i have used his "stand there and wait" approach successfully on my toddler when she has something she shouldn't be playing with and i don't want to grab it from her. he also has a lot of good info about kids and their emotions.


What is the "stand there and wait" approach? I *hate* grabbing things from my DD since we try to model the behavior we want to see from her...


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jordansmommy*
What is the "stand there and wait" approach? I *hate* grabbing things from my DD since we try to model the behavior we want to see from her...


Stand there and wait is what Wolf recomends for children who are too old to physically intereven with. Prob starting around age 5-6.

For young children he says you should defintely "act" as in take an object away from them, if they aren't supposed to have it, or physically (gently) move them into the car, when they are restisiting moving.

For older kids he says if you want them to come somewhere or do something you have to stand there and wait for them to do it. The demeanor you try to project is someone waiting for a rather late bus.

Its amazing but for many kids this really does get them to act.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I had forgotten what age he recommended it for. If the object DD has is dangerous or valuable/breakable then I do take it from her forcefully. But if that's not the case...well, it just didn't feel right to pry something out of her hands, especially when I consider myself responsible for her getting it in the first place (not paying attention, leaving it out, etc). And I didn't want to model that it was okay to grab things, or pry them out of people's hands.

So, for example, my DD grabbed my deoderant from the bathroom counter one day and was running around with it. Last time she did this she smeared it on something. I came up to her and said calmly "that is not for Emily to play with, you need to give it back to mama, okay?", "no" she said and held it tight. I just stood there, and repeated every few seconds very calmly "emily, you need to give that to mama". I wasn't angry or anything, just patient. she watched me for a while, then gave it back.

now, to be honest, sometimes I wonder if this isn't just a power struggle. maybe she just senses that she has no choice because i am bigger and i'm right there. i question this sometimes. but it does seem preferable to just snatching it from her. also, i have to admit it does make me feel a bit validated. it makes me feel like "yeah, she wants to do as I say".

by the way, that is the only situation i have used this for - handing back things that she shouldn't be playing with. i wouldn't use it for getting her to perform a task like picking up toys (that does seem something for older children, IMO) or get into the car.


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## jmom (Sep 14, 2004)

Between this thread and the one about "what I needed to know to do GD", I'm just in heaven here.

Thank you, everyone, for the posts.

I've been struggling a little with GD with DD (age 6). She really does want to do right, but I hadn't found a good way to help her. "Stand and watch" worked great this morning and last night. She can do a lot of things on her own, so I was trying to take shortcuts and have her do too many things unsupervised. Nothing dangerous, but things like cleaning her room and getting ready for bed at night. She does so much better when she gets a little attention during these tasks.

Thanks to all of you for helping me on "my next step" with GD.

You've made a real difference for my family.


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

Maya, Emma's only 18.5 months old but I have a lot more rules than most on this board seem to have, I do have high standards for her and I do think of myself as a strict parent, but in a kind, calm, gentle and respectful way. While many here don't place a lot of value on discipline as a means to raise children who are obediant, I do aspire to do this, within GD. I don't yell, don't hit, don't punish, don't nag and don't degrade, but I do expect her to behave well and if I ask her to do something I follow through and make sure she does it (often me helping her do it for now) with a calm, but firm demeanor. This book by Anthony Wolf sounds like it may be up my alley, as I am not a permissive person by nature, and I've been searching for a discipline book for both myself and my husband to read so that we have a common approach to refer to. What I have been doing with her so far has worked wonderfully (by our standards) but I know as she gets older the challenges will change, and I think my approach is already in tune with his book anyways, from what I've read of your postings here. Please do confirm, it is not a permissive thing, but it is a way of being firm/strict and GD at the same time (I'm sure many here think this is an oxymoron, which is why I'm always nervous posting here. I am GD though by the definition posted on this board, and because I know I do everything gently and with respect to her feelings!) I have ordered the book already, but just wanted to confirm that I'm understanding what the gist of it is. I'm also relieved to read posts by someone who is not afraid to say no and lay down rules, but is also dedicated to GD.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Soundhunter*
Maya, Emma's only 18.5 months old but I have a lot more rules than most on this board seem to have, I do have high standards for her and I do think of myself as a strict parent, but in a kind, calm, gentle and respectful way. While many here don't place a lot of value on discipline as a means to raise children who are obediant, I do aspire to do this, within GD. I don't yell, don't hit, don't punish, don't nag and don't degrade, but I do expect her to behave well and if I ask her to do something I follow through and make sure she does it (often me helping her do it for now) with a calm, but firm demeanor. This book by Anthony Wolf sounds like it may be up my alley, as I am not a permissive person by nature, and I've been searching for a discipline book for both myself and my husband to read so that we have a common approach to refer to. What I have been doing with her so far has worked wonderfully (by our standards) but I know as she gets older the challenges will change, and I think my approach is already in tune with his book anyways, from what I've read of your postings here. Please do confirm, it is not a permissive thing, but it is a way of being firm/strict and GD at the same time (I'm sure many here think this is an oxymoron, which is why I'm always nervous posting here. I am GD though by the definition posted on this board, and because I know I do everything gently and with respect to her feelings!) I have ordered the book already, but just wanted to confirm that I'm understanding what the gist of it is. I'm also relieved to read posts by someone who is not afraid to say no and lay down rules, but is also dedicated to GD.

Yes, I think the books are "up your alley."

In fact the subtitle of the book is "how to be in charge of kids today without punishment, bribes or rewards" I know some people here would be mighty uncomfortable with that title but not me.

He is really common sense (for me).

I was happy to see your post since there seem to be so very few of us out there either here or on mainstream board and IRL who really don't punish or bribe, but have no problem rules and limits set by parents.

If you have any questions feel free to post or PM me. My dd's are all older and I have to say I believe his philosophy has helped me tremendously with them.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

y'know, i have to say that this idea that gd parents don't have rules is really baffling to me. we have rules, we set limits.

and frankly, in all your posts maya i have never figured out why you always preface yourself with this disclaimer about not being as "gd" as some...you seem perfectly "gd" to me.

same with you, soundhunter, altho i have not read as many posts by you.

this idea that you are "out there" for having rules is also a bit insulting i think. not that i think either of you intend that, but when i read posts like yours it seems to perpetuate this stereotype that gd = no discipline. or that gd parents are "permissive" (in fact many gd books talk about why its wrong to be permissive). or that we don't have any rules or limits.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
y'know, i have to say that this idea that gd parents don't have rules is really baffling to me. we have rules, we set limits.

and frankly, in all your posts maya i have never figured out why you always preface yourself with this disclaimer about not being as "gd" as some...you seem perfectly "gd" to me.

same with you, soundhunter, altho i have not read as many posts by you.

this idea that you are "out there" for having rules is also a bit insulting i think. not that i think either of you intend that, but when i read posts like yours it seems to perpetuate this stereotype that gd = no discipline. or that gd parents are "permissive" (in fact many gd books talk about why its wrong to be permissive). or that we don't have any rules or limits.










What I usually say is that I am "not as *AP* as some" here.

And I certainly don't mean to be at all insulting.

I do feel however that I am out of the mainstream (LOL) here for believing that parents should be "in charge" of their children, have no problem using the word "no" and don't feel negotiation is a good way of dealing with a three year old.

Maybe I am wrong and others feel this way.

I do understand that even those who disagree with these things usually use some form of "discipline".


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I think there may be a misconception that parents who don't say "no" or "lay down rules" have out of control kids. This is actually why I posted to you Maya because it seems like you don't "have" to do things like punish or reward and, yet, your kids don't seem out of control.

I wasn't under the impression that laying down rules or saying "no" often was the corner stone of your discipline 'method'. I assumed that your success had more to do with your relationship with your children.

I could clear some things up about the question of rules and saying "no" within GD. I don't have many rules and rarely say no.

We model positive behavior always. I'm respectful, reasonable, trusting, forgiving, understanding, considerate and, imo, because of these things (and DD's temperament) rules and "no" are not needed often.

In other words, for some kids and some families "rules" and "no" is just not necessary.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Soundhunter*
While many here don't place a lot of value on discipline as a means to raise children who are obediant, I do aspire to do this, within GD. I don't yell, don't hit, don't punish, don't nag and don't degrade, but I do expect her to behave well and if I ask her to do something I follow through and make sure she does it (often me helping her do it for now) with a calm, but firm demeanor.

I do not strive for obedience AT ALL however I also expect 'good behavior'. To me, these are two very different things.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
I think there may be a misconception that parents who don't say "no" or "lay down rules" have out of control kids. This is actually why I posted to you Maya because it seems like you don't "have" to do things like punish or reward and, yet, your kids don't seem out of control.

I wasn't under the impression that laying down rules or saying "no" often was the corner stone of your discipline 'method'. I assumed that your success had more to do with your relationship with your children.

I could clear some things up about the question of rules and saying "no" within GD. I don't have many rules and rarely say no.

We model positive behavior always. I'm respectful, reasonable, trusting, forgiving, understanding, considerate and, imo, because of these things (and DD's temperament) rules and "no" are not needed often.

In other words, for some kids and some families "rules" and "no" is just not necessary.


Hmm, well I wouldn't call saying "no" the cornerstone of my discipline method. But I am not hesitant to say it. I have not found that for my kids they become "immune" to it or anything.

And I do lay down rules.

I guess the difference between me and a more mainstream parent is that I don't feel the need to enforce those rules by punishment or bribes. The "rule" remains in place, I will say that I "didn't like it" that the rule was not followed, but there is no other consequence.

And the difference between me and a more AP parent ( I think) is that I am, at least when my kids are young, comfortable with making rules without negotiating them. I will listen (once) to what my children have to say about them, but I am the final decision maker and am comfortable with that role.

However, I don't believe that my "way" is the only right one, and if others avoid rules and no's and feel comfortable with that, then that is the right thing for them.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I wonder if we have a different idea of rules, maybe? I've seen discussion about 'principals' rather than 'rules' and it describes what we do quite well.

For instance, we have principals about people (and other animals) being in charge of their own bodies. This covers violence, unwanted affection, issues about eating and sleep, boundaries for mama(!) and etc.

We also have principals about how to treat members of our community. This covers being respectful of others, not destroying things that belong to others and things of that nature.

We have principals about the environment and being generally grateful for what we have. This covers things like needlessly wasting or ruining something, picking flowers that are for everyone to enjoy, littering, walking rather than driving and a whole host of other things.

The difference is that I don't have 100 rules to cover all the little things that fall under these things because I think them as general principals, yk?

Something as simple as not throwing food on the floor isn't a rule because the issue for me isn't the individual thing ~ it's that throwing food on the floor is wasteful (environment) and it makes more work for me (not respectful).

The great thing about thinking of things this way is that it simplifies things for Aya and she doesn't need to be reminded of many rules because an occasional discussion of principals covers so many things.

From what I've been reading it seems like there is a difference (at least between you and I ~ not the whole AP/NFL thing) in that I'm not particularly comfortable with the role of 'decision maker'.

I imagine that being really confident in this role is really helpful because it just conveys clarity and confidence to your children.

I think clarity and confidence are important. My way around this is to really, really think hard about what I'm asking *and why* because that's the only way I can get to this place of confidence.

I also find that being confident in the reasonability of your request is something that carries over to your child. I know that when I can get to this place where I'm not secretly doubting that she'll 'comply' things go *very* smoothly.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
The "rule" remains in place, I will say that I "didn't like it" that the rule was not followed, but there is no other consequence.

My main question all along is *why* do you think this "works"?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*

However, I don't believe that my "way" is the only right one&#8230;

I know you don't. If I though you were like this I wouldn't be talking to you :LOL

Respect!


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

I'm so glad I stumbled across this thread! (I haven't been to the GD forum in a while.) Maya, I've been attentive to your posts for some time and even tried implementing some of the things you've described at various times. I've seen some success, so I'm interested in more. (My kids are almost 5 and almost 3, so the 5 year old is just getting to the stage where some of this stuff makes sense for her.) I looked up the Wolf book on the library's on-line catalog, jotted down the call number and stuck it in my pocket. I should have it in my hot little hands later today.









Thank you for being so willing to talk about how you parent. I don't know exactly what others are thinking about rules, etc., but I have seen you come under fairly harsh scrutiny in these forums from time to time, so I think I can understand why you feel a bit out the mainstream here. Little did you know there was a secret Maya admiration society!







:LOL


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luv my 2 sweeties*
I don't know exactly what others are thinking about rules, etc., but I have seen you come under fairly harsh scrutiny in these forums from time to time,


Rules were brought up as a somewhat off topic issue about whether many people in GD don't have them or something like that.









Maybe this because I singled Maya out it would be best to keep this on topic because it would be unfortunate for some big 'ol rant about what's GD and what's no-discipline to be on this particular thread.

Maybe if some people have assumptions about GD families being too permissive, that should be a new topic so that we don't feel we have to defend ourselves here. Sound good?

For the record, I don't recall Maya being 'under fire'. I consider you, Maya, to be part of the GD form like anyone else and I, too, apprecitae your ideas!!!


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
Rules were brought up as a somewhat off topic issue about whether many people in GD don't have them or something like that.









Maybe this because I singled Maya out it would be best to keep this on topic because it would be unfortunate for some big 'ol rant about what's GD and what's no-discipline to be on this particular thread.

Maybe if some people have assumptions about GD families being too permissive, that should be a new topic so that we don't feel we have to defend ourselves here. Sound good?

For the record, I don't recall Maya being 'under fire'. I consider you, Maya, to be part of the GD form like anyone else and I, too, apprecitae your ideas!!!









Sorry if that comment was misunderstood.







I certainly don't want to see this thread devolve into a debate about rules -- ugh! That's why I said "I don't know what others are thinking about rules" -- I really don't, and I agree that it isn't at issue here. I didn't mean that as a back-handed put down or anything. I was just offering Maya some validation for what she seems to feel -- I can see why she feels that way sometimes, that's all I'm saying. I'm *not* suggesting anyone deliberately attacks her or that she's not welcome here. Lots of strongly held opinons about parenting come under scrutiny in these forums -- it's not a bad thing, necessarily. We just need to be liberal with the hugs when someone is feeling a bit on the outside.
















ETA: I am not of the opinion that most GD families are too permissive. Some probably are, but so are some mainstream parents -- it's not really about GD. I don't think I indicated an opinion about that in my post, but I just wanted to make it clear. Again, apologies if there was some misunderstanding.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I have to get to the girls school and will post more later but I just want to thank you all for being such nice intersting women!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luv my 2 sweeties*
I was just offering Maya some validation for what she seems to feel -- I can see why she feels that way sometimes, that's all I'm saying. I'm *not* suggesting anyone deliberately attacks her or that she's not welcome here.

Yea, I cand see that and that's actually the vibe I got from your thread. That's a nice thing to do.

I guess I got a little defensive because I never, ever meant to put Maya on the spot&#8230;I honestly was not questioning her in a "prove your self, woman!" sort of way. I truly think she's on to something and has a major contribution. I just wanted some clarity on how and why she thinks this particular way of doing things "works".

Then people mentioned how 'some GDers' don't have rules and I'm not sure what was meant by that or why it's relevant. So, I thought my experience could shed some light on that.

Unfortunately, I think quite a few things that we discuss in the GD forum are a matter of semantics. Someone's "rules" are my "principals". Someone's "NO!" is my "That will break if you do that."


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

ICM,

I am not sure why "the rule remains in place" rule "works" but it does for us.

Maybe its because our girls, like us, are born "rule followers."

Both DH and I feel comfortable with rules and thus don't hesitate to set them.

They are definitely "rules" like
you have to sit at the table until all are done

you have to do your homework before watching TV

you have to make your bed each morning

you have to be in bed by bedtime (sleeping is up to you)

you have to hang up your coat, on the hook, in the mudroom when you come in.

you have to empty the diswaher when its your turn and set the table when its your turn

etc....

I don't get alot of complaining about these rule, but my kids know that they aren't going to change. Now this does not mean I NEVER make an exception. I am always willing to "listen once" and consider whether and exeption is in order.


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

Quote:

*maya:* I was happy to see your post since there seem to be so very few of us out there either here or on mainstream board and IRL who really don't punish or bribe, but have no problem rules and limits set by parents.

If you have any questions feel free to post or PM me. My dd's are all older and I have to say I believe his philosophy has helped me tremendously with them.
I have bookmarked your profile,and will post to you once I've read the book, it will take a couple of weeks to get to where I live, then I'll probably read it in a week or so after that









I too, like you feel far outside of the mainstream because of my GD inclinations, but I also feel very far out of the mainstream that is within MDC as well, which is why I've done far more lurking than posting over the past year









Quote:

*Piglet68:* y'know, i have to say that this idea that gd parents don't have rules is really baffling to me. we have rules, we set limits.

and frankly, in all your posts maya i have never figured out why you always preface yourself with this disclaimer about not being as "gd" as some...you seem perfectly "gd" to me.

same with you, soundhunter, altho i have not read as many posts by you.

this idea that you are "out there" for having rules is also a bit insulting i think. not that i think either of you intend that, but when i read posts like yours it seems to perpetuate this stereotype that gd = no discipline. or that gd parents are "permissive" (in fact many gd books talk about why its wrong to be permissive). or that we don't have any rules or limits.
Piglet, I consider myself a GD parent, so of course I don't think that GD parents don't have rules









As for why myself, and perhaps maya feel the need to preface ourselves, I can say for myself that I am far stricted than most of the posters here. I'm not tryin to insult anyone, nor do I think anyone is trying to insult me when they talk about wanting obediance from children as if it where some some abhorrent need in parents that is disgusting and wrong.

As for the permissive stereotype, I post more frequently on a board that is a mix of mainstream/un mainstream parents and I've been one of the most fervent posters that not spanking/hitting does NOT make a parent perrmissive, which is a commonly held belief in many mainstream parenting circles. I know that GD doesn't = permissive, because I consider myself 100% GD, and I'm actually a very strict parent. I do think though, that the bulk of the frequent posters on this board, are far MORE permissive than myself, and Maya as well. By this I mean that they permit their children to do far more things than I do, I have many more things that I will not permit Emma to do. I am not as child-led as most on this particular board are, and I don't have a problem with it if she gets upset with me laying down her rules. An example is childproofing, I didn't child proof my place as much as most here have, as you may remember I taught her instead not to touch things (within GD and I always made sure to provide her with many things she could touch and to take her daily to places where she could do whatever she wanted) Some posted that they think it is cruel to place things before children that they can't have, or that not allowing them to touch whatever they want is somehow crippling their curiosity. I didn't find that insulting, but I did recognize that these posters are far more permissive than I am, and that my approach to GD, while still 100% GD, is outside of the norm because it is not permissive, in that I don't permit her to do half the things many here permit their kids to do. This is taking the words permit and permissive literally, not with the emotional baggage that us GD'ers often attach to it due to it often being said with a sneer.

I don't feel that I am "out there" on this board because I have rules, I feel "out there" because I do think of myself as an authority figure to Emma, because I do value obediance in children, because I do think she should learn to obey me while she learns to do well by her own inner controls, and because I seem to have much higher standards of what kinds of behavior I find acceptable than many here. We all have to raise the kids that we can live with while also arming them with what they need to get by in the world as good, responsible and able people. I don't think there's only one way to do it. I do think the way I'm doing it is still very GD but is different in many ways than that of many posting here. Not in all ways, and I've learned a lot lurking here and I hope that I can contribute something useful as well. The point of my post to maya was that I could relate to her approach and I felt that her approach was closer to mine than that of most here, and I felt like reaching out to someone that I have something in common with in the scope of GD, I certainly didn't mean to insult anyone. I thought of it as one black sheep reaching out to another, while still considering that we are both part of the same flock here









Quote:

*IdentityCrisisMama:* I think there may be a misconception that parents who don't say "no" or "lay down rules" have out of control kids.
I know people who lay down rules and say no a lot who still have out of control children, so I don't think it's as black and white as that. I don't have that misconception. But I do know that with my personality, and in my life, and with my husband's and my values, we do want our children to respect and obey no, and we would feel that our household and our lives where not as controlled as we would like them to be. I don't think there is one perfect parenting formula that creates perfect children, any parenting style can create out of control children if the home and the parents are out of control. And, different families have different ideas of how much order and "control" they expect each member to live by, your version of control may well seem very out of control by my standards, but I would only think of them as "out of control" if you where losing control of them (and all of our kids are out of control sometimes!), not because they behave differently than Emma does.

Quote:

I do not strive for obedience AT ALL however I also expect 'good behavior'. To me, these are two very different things.
And to my husband and I, children obeying their parents is one behavior that we consider "good". Again, this is one key point where I do feel like I'm a black sheep on the board, but I'm also a good example of how being GD is definitely not about being permissive, because I'm a hard ass and I fall within the spectrum of GD


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Maybe we would also have to define obedience. What does that mean to you?


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Soundhunter*
... I seem to have much higher standards of what kinds of behavior I find acceptable than many here.

What would an example of this be?


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Soundhunter*
An example is childproofing, I didn't child proof my place as much as most here have, as you may remember I taught her instead not to touch things (within GD and I always made sure to provide her with many things she could touch and to take her daily to places where she could do whatever she wanted)

Hi there, I'm a lurker too, just trying to figure out more about GD and greatly enjoying this discussion! Soundhunter, can I ask, then if you teach your dd not to touch things using GD, do you have any consequences if she does? Or how do you use GD to encourage obedience? Can you give an example of that for us amateurs? Same as maya? Would you physically remove her, is that considered still GD?

Thanks!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Not the one asked but I think physically removing a young child from an undesired situation fits with GD.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

I've been following this thread with interest. My ds is only 12 mo. so I'm mainly taking notes for future reference. In regards to Maya's expectatons... my mother has told me that as a child, all she had to do to discipline me was tell me she was unhappy with me. I remember feeling that I wanted to do right and if she was unhappy with something I had done, I felt bad. (Not that I was bad, rather I just felt unhappy myself.) She would also tell me she was disappointed in me. I didn't feel this meant I was "bad" or that I always had to make her happy...it was usually something that involved being disrespectful toward her or not doing my share as a member of the household. I think it can be a very effective discipline method. It helped me learn to be considerate of others.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
Not the one asked but I think physically removing a young child from an undesired situation fits with GD.

Thanks IdentityCrisisMama,

It seems like some people don't do this, or want to take things from their children that they shouldn't have, so that's why I asked.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Soundhunter*
I do think though, that the bulk of the frequent posters on this board, are far MORE permissive than myself, and Maya as well. By this I mean that they permit their children to do far more things than I do, I have many more things that I will not permit Emma to do. I am not as child-led as most on this particular board are, and I don't have a problem with it if she gets upset with me laying down her rules. An example is childproofing, I didn't child proof my place as much as most here have, as you may remember I taught her instead not to touch things (within GD and I always made sure to provide her with many things she could touch and to take her daily to places where she could do whatever she wanted)


This was very interesting because I too never did much "child-proofing"

I used the word "no" and orginally backed it up with fast but gentle movement from the undesired place or gentle removal of the object I did not want them to have.

Fairly quickly my girls learned that when I said "no" they needed to stop what they were doing or what I asked (e.g. "no going near the big stairs", "no opening any cabinets" "no touching the scissors")

If they did ignore me, I would back it up with gentle action.


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

Maya, it really sounds like I do things much like you do/did









Quote:

Hi there, I'm a lurker too, just trying to figure out more about GD and greatly enjoying this discussion! Soundhunter, can I ask, then if you teach your dd not to touch things using GD, do you have any consequences if she does? Or how do you use GD to encourage obedience? Can you give an example of that for us amateurs? Same as maya? Would you physically remove her, is that considered still GD?
See this same link as I showed to maya, to see what I did. I didn't think of it in turns of consequences though I suppose it was one. My thinking was, no touch means no touch, no touch still means no touch even if I'm wearing a purple shirt, and even in the morning, even if it's sunny outside, even if there's music playing, or even if we're at someone's house. I saw her repeated attempts to touch things I told her not to as the actions of a little scientist, testing every angle to make sure she really understood what no touch meant, and if it applied with different "controls" in place, I never saw her as trying to manipulate me, even when she would test the no touch thing over and over again. I consider this approach to be absolutely GD, there was no punishment, anger, shame or disrespect for her involved, just a "rule" and gentle enforcement of that rule.

Quote:

*IdentityCrisisMama:* Maybe we would also have to define obedience. What does that mean to you?
The literal interpretation of the word, I ask her to do something or to stop doing something, and she obeys. Do I expect perfection? Of course not, no one is perfect and she is a toddler, and after that a child who is learning and also a human person who will sometimes dislike and disagree with my requests. I do expect her to mostly obey me because I am her parent and because I, and my husband, and certain family members, are the authorities in her life until she is old enough and responsible enough to be her own authority on her own self (which I expect to be a gradual process). Not because she is afraid of us because we will punish the crap out of her or shame her or anything harsh, but because she's used to how our family operates and because it's the way things have been, consistently, since she was mobile.

Do I need to explain the standards thing, or can we gather from my posts that I'm stricter and more demanding than many of the frequent posters here? By higher standards I don't mean superior or better, I mean that they are harder to reach, btw.

Anyways, this is maya's thread, I'd hate to steal her thunder by going on about my stuff







:LOL


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Soundhunter*

The literal interpretation of the word, [obediance] I ask her to do something or to stop doing something, and she obeys. Do I expect perfection? Of course not, no one is perfect and she is a toddler, and after that a child who is learning and also a human person who will sometimes dislike and disagree with my requests. I do expect her to mostly obey me because I am her parent and because I, and my husband, and certain family members, are the authorities in her life until she is old enough and responsible enough to be her own authority on her own self (which I expect to be a gradual process). Not because she is afraid of us because we will punish the crap out of her or shame her or anything harsh, but because she's used to how our family operates and because it's the way things have been, consistently, since she was mobile.

Anyways, this is maya's thread, I'd hate to steal her thunder by going on about my stuff







:LOL


No thunder stolen here. This is EXACTLY how my dh and I feel!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

thank you maya and soundhunter for your wonderful posts. i now understand more fully where you are coming from. i never thought you meant to be insulting. I was thinking more along the lines of people who may be lurking with this idea that GD is somehow permissive, or without rules. you both did a great job of explaining what you meant.









ICM, I love the idea of your "principles". We do have rules in our house. One is we eat messy foods at the table. While we can snack on some things while playing, foods like yogurt or cereal with milk must be eaten at the table. And meals (breakfast, lunch, diner) are eaten at the table. We also have a rule that before we play with a new toy, we put away the previous ones. Playing on the balcony requires shoes on, and shoes come off before coming in. That sort of thing. I suppose these could be explained to the kids as either "rules" or "principles". Definitely food for thought!

I also find it interesting, maya, how you repeatedly talk about using rules in terms of the personalities of you and your DH. For me, rules are something I have always bristled at - and I know this comes in large part from the punitive style of parenting I often received as a child (never harsh, but definitely a punishment approach). Power struggles were the story of my life when it came to me and my mother. So I would never seek to describe my style of discipline in the terms you use. OTOH, when we break it all down, I think we are alot alike in our approach. We just frame it in different contexts perhaps, based on our own unique personalities. This is one aspect of parenting I find so interesting - how much of it depends on who we are as parents and what our own issues/needs are.

soundhunter, I am finding your posts really interesting, too. I think I would agree that you expect 'obedience' where others may not, at least in the philosophical context you've described. i'm not sure I identify with the "authority figure" part. and yet at the same time, you are so right in what you say about being GD, about the differences that this can encompass, etc. For me I often try to break discipline matters down into what the family holds as values. and your posts point out so nicely how different families have different values, or emphasize different things, and yet we are all finding ways to meet those values in a gentle, respectful, way. i'm really glad you are a part of this group!









So, maya, to get this thread back on track, I have another question (and anyone else is free to answer, too, of course!).

I think that one of the reasons "I don't like that" works with our kids is we all seem to have avoided the whole power struggle/punishment issue from the start. My child doesn't go into discipline situations with the expectation of a battle. Her body and mind aren't focussed on "Defense Mode". So I think this makes her open to feel her own disappointment in herself when mama is "not pleased" with something. So if someone were to stumble upon this discussion, who has used a more punitive approach to parenting, such that power struggles are a part of their daily experience...do you think such kids can respond to this technique? Would "I had to pick up your toys all by myself and I'm not very happy about that" work on kids who are used to a different set of dynamics? Or could such parents expect a bit of an uphill battle at first while they try to erase "power struggle" mode from their kids' minds.

discuss!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Soundhunter*
Do I need to explain the standards thing, or can we gather from my posts that I'm stricter and more demanding than many of the frequent posters here? By higher standards I don't mean superior or better, I mean that they are harder to reach, btw.

Well, I don't feel like I understand you so if you would like to explain more that would be nice. I don't really understand how the term "higher standards" is not being used imply "better" because that's the way I'm used to it being used.

Could you give a specific example of some standard you have that you don't think others have?

I also don't really understand "harder to reach" and what you mean by that. I know you don't mean that this is a demonstration of how hard it is for your child to meet your standards. But I just don't know what you mean.

I don't know. I just don't really see what you imagine to be so different between "some other GD kids" and yours.

As far as obedience, yea, that's not a term I like to use ~ that's true. To me, it's a very strange concept. To centralize obedience is to centralize external motivation, imo.

Example: Aya is generally cooperative but last night we were out and she wanted to have a cookie from our neighbor. I asked her to thank the neighbor. She didn't and didn't get the cookie (crappy situation that could definitely been handled better by me). Anyway, after a few minutes she picked up a raspberry and offered it to my neighbor and they bonded. It was sweet (my neighbor is a single woman in her 80s). Had my child simply "obeyed" me there would have been *no* bonding and no significance to her gesture other than obedience.

What are some thoughts on this? Everyone, welcome&#8230;

(BTW, I'm just interested in discussing. I'm assuming that's the point of us being here. I'm not trying to change anyone&#8230;just want to talk about interesting ideas!)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
So if someone were to stumble upon this discussion, who has used a more punitive approach to parenting, such that power struggles are a part of their daily experience...do you think such kids can respond to this technique? Would "I had to pick up your toys all by myself and I'm not very happy about that" work on kids who are used to a different set of dynamics? Or could such parents expect a bit of an uphill battle at first while they try to erase "power struggle" mode from their kids' minds.

discuss!









I've always thought about how implementing little tidbits of another 'style' would just not work. I know that I've been tempted to reward or punish and DC looks at me like I'm out of my mind. :LOL

I imagine this would work the same way in reverse. I don't know many parents who punish (harshly) but I do imagine with a reward system the children would need quite a bit of 'deprogramming'.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
So, maya, to get this thread back on track, I have another question (and anyone else is free to answer, too, of course!).

I think that one of the reasons "I don't like that" works with our kids is we all seem to have avoided the whole power struggle/punishment issue from the start. My child doesn't go into discipline situations with the expectation of a battle. Her body and mind aren't focussed on "Defense Mode". So I think this makes her open to feel her own disappointment in herself when mama is "not pleased" with something. So if someone were to stumble upon this discussion, who has used a more punitive approach to parenting, such that power struggles are a part of their daily experience...do you think such kids can respond to this technique? Would "I had to pick up your toys all by myself and I'm not very happy about that" work on kids who are used to a different set of dynamics? Or could such parents expect a bit of an uphill battle at first while they try to erase "power struggle" mode from their kids' minds.

discuss!










Wow. That is an intersting question.

I think that you are right that the lack of a "defense" mode definitey makes these GD methods "work."

And I think if a parent has set up constant power struggles with their kids, these methods might not be effective at first. Though I think that if the struggle eventually dissipated they might.

I would also like to mention that I think that my kids are definitely more likely to feel their own disapointment when I am displeased with them and even more importantly when others are displeased with them.

One intereting thing though is that they seem to distinguish between the other people's feelings and their own thoughts on whether they have behaved well.

I will give an example with my middle DD who is almost 10 and in Hebrew School. Just as backgound I will tell you that she loves Hebrew School, while most kids don't feel that way.

Anyway, she came home from Hebrew School and was laughing and told me that she got in "trouble." It seems the subsitute teacher thought she was laughing at him (she was actually coughing into her hand to try not to disturb the class, but I guess it sounded like muffled laughing) He made her move to the back of the room. She told me it was really funny because "I am the only one there who is even intersted in this stuff and he thought I was being bad."

Now I thought her reaction was intersting because last month, a substitute teacher reprimanded her friend for repeatedly talking during class, and my dd told me it gave her a bad feeling in her stomach because she was in fact doing this also and knew she wasn't supposed to and felt really badly.

So this makes me feel like she is able to not just rely on others feelings but also her own.


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## PrincessMommie (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
I was happy to see your post since there seem to be so very few of us out there either here or on mainstream board and IRL who really don't punish or bribe, but have no problem rules and limits set by parents.

First of all..thank you all so much for this thread! It is helping me tremendously as well! I think I just may have to get this particular book myself.

I am a newbie to GD as I had been following in my parents footsteps of being a 'punitive' parent (no tomatoes please :LOL )...so this is all really new to me and I am trying very hard to learn to be Gentle. However for Dh and myself it is also imperative to us personally that while we are committed to being on board and wholeheartedly agree with GD, and not use punishments or bribes, that we do have rules and limits in place. Not that we want to control our children per se, but to be confident parents who are firmly guiding and teaching and helping our children stay within the limits we set.

So anyway this thread has been awsome for me!









ETA: just wanted to clarify that I am not at all insinuating that GD are permissive...while there 'may' be some (haven't been here long enough to know and even if I was I don't care to cast judgement) I just wanted to say Yay! on this post and interate what 'our' family is striving for.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I am unhappy when I read things like "all I have to do is tell my child they make me unhappy and they behave"... and similar things. To me that is blatant manipulation of a child's natural desire to please their parents. There is a disctinction between being honest with your feelings: "Sweetheart, it is very frustrating to mommy when you throw food. We do not throw food" (take away plate or whatever) ...and blatant manipulation that is shaming: "It hurts mommy when you don't eat your dinner. Mommy worked hard to cook that dinner"...

I really hope NONE of us are doing the latter...because to me, that in NO way falls under the category of GD. It is just as punative as any other punishment in my opinion, it is just the punishment of producing a child who feels shamed into behaving because the love may get taken away.

Just my opinion on only one aspect of this very complicated discussion.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I am unhappy when I read things like "all I have to do is tell my child they make me unhappy and they behave"... and similar things. To me that is blatant manipulation of a child's natural desire to please their parents. There is a disctinction between being honest with your feelings: "Sweetheart, it is very frustrating to mommy when you throw food. We do not throw food" (take away plate or whatever) ...and blatant manipulation that is shaming: "It hurts mommy when you don't eat your dinner. Mommy worked hard to cook that dinner"...


Ugh, I would NEVER do the latter. Young children's behavior does not "hurt" me or my feelings and I would never state otherwise.

A simple "I do not like that. It makes a mess" is more than sufficient.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

*whew* That's good! I wasn't speacking to anyone in particular, but I did see a few comments in my reading of the thread dealing with the above mentioned and I just wanted to put in my opinion about that issue in particular--because (sadly) I have seen many GD parents fall into that, thinking it is GD, and in my opinion, it isn't.

Again, I do think a distinction should be made too...I am not for hiding feelings from children or the like. If my child were to hit me in the face, I would tell her something like, "hitting hurts people and does not feel good" (physically and emotionally implied)..."we do not hit". etc...

I was more speaking of the comments a few people made about telling them their children's behavior made them *unhappy* or *dissapointed* or *hurt* them...

That is such a huge pet peeve of mine.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I think there are a few factors to consider when if we're discussing other parents who use this language.

Honesty would be a big one. I can see how words like disappointed, hurt, and unhappy can be very overused or exaggerated to the point of being dishonest. OTOH, if a child truly hurt, disappointed or made a parent unhappy it may be appropriate to make the child aware of that.

Age and temperament are a big factor as well. Some kids are too sensitive to discuss these kinds of things with, I think. But, certain kids and, especially older kids may do fine with the information.

OTOH, (again) I'm not sure that kids need to be verbally told something like this in order for them to know, yk?

I also don't think all those words are the same. I can see hurt if we're talking about physical hurt. Telling a child they physically hurt the parent doesn't seem that problematic to me. Emotional hurt and disappointment are also something that I think can be 'okay' in moderation with some kids so long as the child knows that their fundamental relationship and actions are not disappointing. Unhappy is a whole different thing I think. I'm not sure if I can where this would be all that healthy to say to a child. I mean, I wouldn't say it to an adult so&#8230;


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

I'm nearly finished with it already (It's a quick read, and funny too!) With just a couple of reservations, I love it. The reason I love it before I've even tried much of it is that it rings true to me as an adult. While reading it, I've been doing as much reflexion on my *own* "baby-self" as on how it would apply to my children. I need to read it to dh (he would never get around to it on his own







), but I'm excited to try it out! I can also see that this philosophy would probably be more likely to teach children to be self-controled and self-disciplined than others we have tried.

We've been doing some limited "1-2-3 Magic" -- a kind of time-out system -- because we couldn't think of a better alternative when our kids ignore us.







: It works well in the sense that we seldom have to actually give time out, but I don't care for the threat that hangs in the air, and I don't feel that it is teaching them true respect for others. It's only teaching "do this or get punished". Granted, it's better than what we *were* doing, which was bottling up our frustration until we lashed out by yelling







: , but it's not ideal for me. I'm looking forward to trying Dr. Wolf's ideas. The success Maya seems to have had with it is encouraging. I think I'd be skeptical otherwise.

Captain Crunchy, I think you make a good point. I think that the ideas in this book could fairly easily be misapplied and turn into guilt-tripping and emotional manipulation. It's fairly clear to me that Wolf is *not* advocating that, but it's amazing how some folks will run away with a concept and take it to extremes.

Maya44, do you use Wolf's ideas for sibling rivalry? That's one of the areas that didn't sit so well with me -- just let them work it out no matter what (barring risk of physical harm.) I can see the point, and I've heard this advice before, but I think I would have a hard time implementing it. Right now I try to *help* the kids work out their differences. I try not to take sides or solve the problem for them (unless I'm low on patience; I admit to taking matters into my own hands sometimes). I do help them find the words (especially 2 3/4 y.o. ds) to state what they want to eachother and to find compromise. It seems to be working well, but I don't know anyone else who does what I do whose kids are older, so I'm not sure if it will work in the long run or if I'm setting myself up for problems. I could see it going either way, but I'm really reluctant to just leave them to sink or swim.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luv my 2 sweeties*
Maya44, do you use Wolf's ideas for sibling rivalry? That's one of the areas that didn't sit so well with me -- just let them work it out no matter what (barring risk of physical harm.) I can see the point, and I've heard this advice before, but I think I would have a hard time implementing it. Right now I try to *help* the kids work out their differences. I try not to take sides or solve the problem for them (unless I'm low on patience; I admit to taking matters into my own hands sometimes). I do help them find the words (especially 2 3/4 y.o. ds) to state what they want to eachother and to find compromise. It seems to be working well, but I don't know anyone else who does what I do whose kids are older, so I'm not sure if it will work in the long run or if I'm setting myself up for problems. I could see it going either way, but I'm really reluctant to just leave them to sink or swim.

Yes. We do. They are explained in more detail in his book "Mom, Jason's breathing on Me!" (gotta love that title, huh?)

I found that while intervening was "tempting" and somewhat helpful in the short run, in the long run it caused WAY more problems.

In the "Mom, Jason's breathing on me" book he explains better that what he means by not getting involved is not taking sides unless there is a threat of actual injury.

So if you see your DD sitting on DS's back and hitting him (but no real possibilty of harm) you say "HEY, you TWO cut it out right NOW"

You can even say this while physically pulling DD off DS's back.

You don't say "DD stop hitting DS".

By doing it Wolf's way you avoid the "BUT mom, he took my dolls" or WHATEVER.

And if there is risk of harm you CAN say "DD do not hit your brother with that metal truck, you could hurt him."

If you get a "he took my dolls" you can STILL say

"You can NOT hit him with the truck, you could hurt him."

I can't even tell you the reduction in fighting and in my annoyance level from using Wolf's techniques with my three dd's.

I tried Sibling without Rivalry and all it did was seem to increase the fighting and even worse their need for me to be involved in every battle.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

But maya....don't you think that, at an earlier age, kids need someone to model cooperative play behaviour for them? I can see the technique you are describing working for older kids, but at my DD's age (2 3/4) I think she needs help with social skills. I think she needs an adult there to model things like sharing, cooperating, etc. I don't think kids can learn that from other kids. Sort of the blind leading the blind. I've heard you say above that you think Wolf's techniques are for older children. What about this sibling stuff?


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
But maya....don't you think that, at an earlier age, kids need someone to model cooperative play behaviour for them? I can see the technique you are describing working for older kids, but at my DD's age (2 3/4) I think she needs help with social skills. I think she needs an adult there to model things like sharing, cooperating, etc. I don't think kids can learn that from other kids. Sort of the blind leading the blind. I've heard you say above that you think Wolf's techniques are for older children. What about this sibling stuff?

I started using Wolf's "sibling stuff" when middle dd was not yet 4 and the "baby was around 2 1/2 (but very verbal). Up until then I was trying various things with no sucess, but never did "modeling" because, frankly, for me, it felt unnatural.

And no I really truly did not see any need to "model" things. She and her sister really started working things out on their own. Siblings, IME, really are able to do this. There are some "rough" patches, but in the end its just better on their own.

IME, anytime you are involved one of the sibs sees it as taking the others side. They are so busy trying to figure out whose side you are taking the lesson is often lost anyway.

All I can tell you really is that I am soooooooooo glad I did this. They really did figure it out all on thier own.

If something else works for another family great. But I am simply a fan of this plan.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

cool. thanks for the reply. i'll have to watch for this as my kids interact more.

i have big issues from my childhood b/c my parents would never listen to "what happened" and it made me feel like my feelings didn't matter. i now carry around with me issues about "fairness" that i trace back to this. and i know personally i really need validation, even more than a "solution" (often i'm ranting to dh adn he's trying to help me "solve" my problem when all i need is to feel heard and understood). i remember how much i hated hearing "i don't care who started it!...". so maybe that is why siblings without rivalry appealed to me so much. i'll watch them and see what style will work best. thanks for the info!


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
cool. thanks for the reply. i'll have to watch for this as my kids interact more.

i have big issues from my childhood b/c my parents would never listen to "what happened" and it made me feel like my feelings didn't matter. i now carry around with me issues about "fairness" that i trace back to this. and i know personally i really need validation, even more than a "solution" (often i'm ranting to dh adn he's trying to help me "solve" my problem when all i need is to feel heard and understood). i remember how much i hated hearing "i don't care who started it!...". so maybe that is why siblings without rivalry appealed to me so much. i'll watch them and see what style will work best. thanks for the info!

One thing that I found helpful was, unlike the suggestion of SWOR, to comfort the "victim" in front of the "agressor," was to do any comforting about sibling problems in PRIVATE.

At bedtime, when they arent' going to go running to a sibling to "report" on what mama said, I might go to the one who I thought was victimized that day and say "Wow, sometimes your sister is kind of mean, huh?"

They could feel free to talk about it and know they'd get sympathy from me ("its hard sometimes, I know" etc...) but also know that on some level they were going to have to work it out themsleves.


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
I also don't really understand "harder to reach" and what you mean by that. I know you don't mean that this is a demonstration of how hard it is for your child to meet your standards.

Actually, that's exactly what I mean









As fr the continued discussion about sibling rivalry, I'm not there yet. But I do like Dr. Sear's view that children should be protected from bullying, whether it's by kids outside or within the family and I'd have to agree. I think I'd have a very hard time letting them work it out if they where being cruel, I already want to cry when I think about how someone somewhere will be unkind to Emma one day.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Soundhunter*
Actually, that's exactly what I mean









As fr the continued discussion about sibling rivalry, I'm not there yet. But I do like Dr. Sear's view that children should be protected from bullying, whether it's by kids outside or within the family and I'd have to agree. I think I'd have a very hard time letting them work it out if they where being cruel, I already want to cry when I think about how someone somewhere will be unkind to Emma one day.









I'll tell you why I don't agree with this.

You just can't compare "bullying" from siblings with "bulllying" from anywhere else. Now, if there was true, overwhelming daily bullying of one child of one other child, I would defintely try to get at the root of the problem.

But in my house, like most, there is just a back and forth "mean" to your sibs things that sometimes happens. (And most of the time they adore each other)

Kids really do on some level see sibling stuff WAY, WAY differently than other stuff.

Let's take for example being called "ugly" or "stupid"

From my years of experience a kid at school calls another one of these words and it stings. It really does. The child really wonders "Am I ugly or stupid".

Now when your sister calls you that, it might make you annoyed. But really ya don't tend to question your self worth over this. NEVER once have one of my dd's come to me to report feeling truly "bad" about what one of their siblings called them. They might come to report their sister messing up their room, or moving their stuff (they know I am not going to do anything about it, but they will get sympathy.) And they have occassionaly come to me realy sad when a kid at school was mean.

Now, if I was the kind of mama who would then get mad at the sister for calling a mean name, I am sure I would get pleanty of reporting (Mooooom, she called me "stupid.") I've seen this from friends kids who report just to get a sib in "trouble".

But they really aren't looking for sympathy when their sisters call them a mean name. They know its just "noise" and on some level its just not the same as a mean word from a friend.

Moreover, I have seen that by dealing with this at home, they are WAY better at dealing with other kids.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Soundhunter*
Actually, that's exactly what I mean










Interesting. I can't say that I fully understand. We'll have to dedicate a thread to you some day :LOL

Re: sibling rivalry&#8230;

I don't have two kids but the idea of the parent staying neutral seems quite natural to me. I do this with my child and her playmates ~ try to stay out of it as much as possible and then try to stay neutral (like the examples you gave, Maya).

The only deviation I make from what you said about siblings (and keep in mind I'm talking about friends) is that I have found it quite helpful to comfort the "victim" with the other child there.

Is what you said about not comforting the 'victim' something that you feel is sibling specific or do you generally comfort all kids in private?


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
Moreover, I have seen that by dealing with this at home, they are WAY better at dealing with other kids.

Can you think of an example to share with us? I'm still skeptical about the notion of *not* teaching the kids how to negotiate conflict in a more civilized manner (which is different than taking sides, although I hear you saying that you think *they* will see it that way no matter what. Hmmm...). Nevertheless, I'm intrigued by that last statement you made, and I'd be interested in some examples if you can think of some. Do they just learn good come-backs so that they can "give as good as they get", or is it more a matter of gaining enough self-confidence so that they can discern whether and how to stay engaged in a difficult situation or to walk away? (Does that question make sense? I feel like I'm having a hard time formulating it.)

BTW, I do tend to agree that "mean-ness" from a sibling is different than from peers. (True bullying might be another matter, because I think of bullying as involving coersion of some sort, but I don't think that's what we are talking about here.) Name-calling and even mock-hitting/slapping from a sibling rolls off pretty easily. And if it doesn't for some reason -- if a comment hits a genuine sore spot, for example, or a slap lands hard and _really_ hurts -- the offending sibling is usually taken aback by the hurt they cause and will apologize. At least that's been my experience with my young children, and with my own siblings. My kids love eachother to death and are best friends. Their occasional spats are soon forgotten. I don't think the "mean girl" on the playground is likely to be the victim's best buddy 5 minutes after she calls her a poopy-head!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Again, I don't have two kids :LOL

But, I can think of one reason that it might be best for a parent to 'stay out of it'. It's because the parent is not the expert on the relationship between the siblings ~ the siblings are. So, a parent can give basic advice on how to interact with people in general but I think it would be really difficult to know how to be in the *relationship* if your not in it, YK?


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

L2MS,

I will give you an example.

My girls have to negotiate among themselves for things like what they are going to watch on TV or who gets to use the computer or even how mad they are at the other for breaking a toy.

I think that if I try to get involved it creates a very unnatural situation (e.g. "ok, now you tell your sister what you want to watch and then she will tell you, and then then your other sister will voice it and then we will pick one to watch each day.")

Now as I have said I believe kids are so busy trying to figure out who the parent is giving the upper hand to they don't get that much out of the lesson.

More importatnly the freind on the playground may not feel like doing this negotiating and you have to try something else, just like you do with your sister when mom ISN"T going to be involved and sister might not even agree to even discuss the matter. And by going through that trial and error at home. What will work, what kind of compromising will someone else even be willing to discuss etc... they have learned better how to deal with other kids.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
Let's take for example being called "ugly" or "stupid"

From my years of experience a kid at school calls another one of these words and it stings. It really does. The child really wonders "Am I ugly or stupid".

Now when your sister calls you that, it might make you annoyed. But really ya don't tend to question your self worth over this. NEVER once have one of my dd's come to me to report feeling truly "bad" about what one of their siblings called them.

I've been monitoring this thread but didn't want to get in the middle of it until now, since sibling "issues" are now a big part of my day and I'm looking for ideas. Unfortunately, my youngest is only 2 and a bit and it doesn't seem fair (to anyone) or appropriate to have them work things out on their own yet. But I digress.

I need to jump in here and point out that, while the above may be true for Maya's kids, it wasn't true for me. My younger brother used to call me a "dog" (slang for ugly at the time) a lot when I was a young teenager, with all the body image problems of that age. To this day I still remember many of these times and I still have trouble seeing myself as anything but ugly/ unattractive, even though everyone else in my life reports otherwise. I completely took his word as fact and have never shaken it. I think I felt, "It must have been true because it came from someone who I loved and trusted, as opposed to someone who didn't care as much."

Point being that I think name-calling and bullying from siblings can be more harmful than from others and children should be protected from it. Now, if I could only figure out how to do that without moving outside of GD, a commitment to honor their abilities to work things out themselves (at least when they can both talk), and a desire to have them be nice to each other because its right, not because "Mommy says so".


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## tinaq (Aug 26, 2002)

Interested in reading this thread, but can't stay still long enough to get it all. So, I'm subscribing.

Tina


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
L2MS,

I will give you an example.

My girls have to negotiate among themselves for things like what they are going to watch on TV or who gets to use the computer or even how mad they are at the other for breaking a toy.

I think that if I try to get involved it creates a very unnatural situation (e.g. "ok, now you tell your sister what you want to watch and then she will tell you, and then then your other sister will voice it and then we will pick one to watch each day.")

Now as I have said I believe kids are so busy trying to figure out who the parent is giving the upper hand to they don't get that much out of the lesson.

More importatnly the freind on the playground may not feel like doing this negotiating and you have to try something else, just like you do with your sister when mom ISN"T going to be involved and sister might not even agree to even discuss the matter. And by going through that trial and error at home. What will work, what kind of compromising will someone else even be willing to discuss etc... they have learned better how to deal with other kids.

Thanks. That's food for thought...


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## Jordansmommy (May 26, 2004)

I was wondering this... Maya44, when did you start using this philosophy on your DDs? I have tried this in the car, for instance, where my DD emits ear-piercing shrieks constantly *every time* we ride somewhere







"DD, I don't like it when you scream like that. I know you don't want to sit there, but we have to drive if we want to go to xxxxxxfun place. No more screaming. " I feel like an idiot :LOL When does setting expectations actually start to have an effect? And what do you do with shrieky toddlers in the meantime!??


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jordansmommy*
I was wondering this... Maya44, when did you start using this philosophy on your DDs? I have tried this in the car, for instance, where my DD emits ear-piercing shrieks constantly *every time* we ride somewhere







"DD, I don't like it when you scream like that. I know you don't want to sit there, but we have to drive if we want to go to xxxxxxfun place. No more screaming. " I feel like an idiot :LOL When does setting expectations actually start to have an effect? And what do you do with shrieky toddlers in the meantime!??

First of all, boy is your dd cute!!!!!

I did start talking like this at an early age (1-2) BUT I did not expect it to have that much of an effect. I am sure this behavior is very annoying, but there's not much more you can do about it, so why not do this.

I do think it helps to say this in a serious (not yelling) voice.

I think it really did not take full effect til my dd's were closer to 2 1/2. Good LUCK!


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

I got the book The Secret of Parenting from the library and read it. I'm now reading it to dh (because he would not find the time to read it on his own. Not out of beligerance, understand; he's just not much of a reader.) So I'm using it more than dh, but he's starting to use it some as well. Here's a great example of a situation where using the method from the book caused me to change *my* usual response to my dd, and what happened:

The other day dd (4.75) dropped her coat in the middle of the kitchen floor instead of hanging it up. I called her back into the kitchen and she came immediately. But when I told her to please hang up her coat, she said "No, I don't want to -- you do it."







: I told her matter-of-factly that the coat needed to be hung up and it was her job to do it. Then I waited silently. It was actually kind of funny because after a few moments of silence, dd started to get this look like "What the heck is going on?" (When she didn't encounter the usual sharpening of my tone of voice or "that's 1", she was thrown off balance a bit!) She picked up the coat, but refused to hang it up. I could tell she was uncomfortable but did not want to "give in". Since it seemed this was becoming a test of wills, I stopped *just* waiting and began to do some other business in the kitchen. I still said not a word to dd, who was standing by the hooks with her coat in her hand, looking bewildered. I smiled at her occasionally. Out of the corner of my eye, I saw her slowing moving toward the hooks. I avoided looking at her directly while she slooowly hung it up. After she had it on the hook, I looked over at her, smiled, and said "Thanks Sweetie!" Just as if she had done it the instant I asked. She got this really bemused smile on her face (I'm sure she was expecting some sort of comment about how it could have all been over a long time ago if she had hung it up right away...














: ). We hugged.







We're still learning and adjusting, but I'm impressed so far!


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luv my 2 sweeties*
I got the book The Secret of Parenting from the library and read it. I'm now reading it to dh (because he would not find the time to read it on his own. Not out of beligerance, understand; he's just not much of a reader.) So I'm using it more than dh, but he's starting to use it some as well. Here's a great example of a situation where using the method from the book caused me to change *my* usual response to my dd, and what happened:

The other day dd (4.75) dropped her coat in the middle of the kitchen floor instead of hanging it up. I called her back into the kitchen and she came immediately. But when I told her to please hang up her coat, she said "No, I don't want to -- you do it."







: I told her matter-of-factly that the coat needed to be hung up and it was her job to do it. Then I waited silently. It was actually kind of funny because after a few moments of silence, dd started to get this look like "What the heck is going on?" (When she didn't encounter the usual sharpening of my tone of voice or "that's 1", she was thrown off balance a bit!) She picked up the coat, but refused to hang it up. I could tell she was uncomfortable but did not want to "give in". Since it seemed this was becoming a test of wills, I stopped *just* waiting and began to do some other business in the kitchen. I still said not a word to dd, who was standing by the hooks with her coat in her hand, looking bewildered. I smiled at her occasionally. Out of the corner of my eye, I saw her slowing moving toward the hooks. I avoided looking at her directly while she slooowly hung it up. After she had it on the hook, I looked over at her, smiled, and said "Thanks Sweetie!" Just as if she had done it the instant I asked. She got this really bemused smile on her face (I'm sure she was expecting some sort of comment about how it could have all been over a long time ago if she had hung it up right away...














: ). We hugged.







We're still learning and adjusting, but I'm impressed so far!









That's exactly how its supposed to work. Kind of amazing huh???

I too especially like the suggestion that you just say "thank you" when they do it, and not get into "why didn't you do it right away etc...."


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## malibusunny (Jul 29, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
I wonder if we have a different idea of rules, maybe? I've seen discussion about 'principals' rather than 'rules' and it describes what we do quite well.

For instance, we have principals about people (and other animals) being in charge of their own bodies. This covers violence, unwanted affection, issues about eating and sleep, boundaries for mama(!) and etc.

We also have principals about how to treat members of our community. This covers being respectful of others, not destroying things that belong to others and things of that nature.

We have principals about the environment and being generally grateful for what we have. This covers things like needlessly wasting or ruining something, picking flowers that are for everyone to enjoy, littering, walking rather than driving and a whole host of other things.

The difference is that I don't have 100 rules to cover all the little things that fall under these things because I think them as general principals, yk?

Something as simple as not throwing food on the floor isn't a rule because the issue for me isn't the individual thing ~ it's that throwing food on the floor is wasteful (environment) and it makes more work for me (not respectful).

The great thing about thinking of things this way is that it simplifies things for Aya and she doesn't need to be reminded of many rules because an occasional discussion of principals covers so many things.

From what I've been reading it seems like there is a difference (at least between you and I ~ not the whole AP/NFL thing) in that I'm not particularly comfortable with the role of 'decision maker'.

I imagine that being really confident in this role is really helpful because it just conveys clarity and confidence to your children.

I think clarity and confidence are important. My way around this is to really, really think hard about what I'm asking *and why* because that's the only way I can get to this place of confidence.

I also find that being confident in the reasonability of your request is something that carries over to your child. I know that when I can get to this place where I'm not secretly doubting that she'll 'comply' things go *very* smoothly.

this sounds like me as a teacher.







i run a democratic classroom in that we all agree upon and willingly commit to the same underlying principles. i hope my family can "run" the same way.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
One thing that I found helpful was, unlike the suggestion of SWOR, to comfort the "victim" in front of the "agressor," was to do any comforting about sibling problems in PRIVATE.

I agree. I actually think the act of comforting the "victim" in front of the aggressor can easily come off as punishing, or a passive-agressive move to the "agressor". Like "as punishment you get to watch me get all lovey and attentive to your sibling". Not saying that is the intention, but I think it could easily come off that way.

I also found it interesting when you said that you did the "expectations" bit with the younger kids but didn't expect it to stick right away, like the screaming thing. I think sometimes I tend to carry on a bit too much, feeling more needs to be said. But probably just a simple "I expect..." sentence is just as good.

Glad this thread got revived.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Piglet68 said:


> *I agree. I actually think the act of comforting the "victim" in front of the aggressor can easily come off as punishing, or a passive-agressive move to the "agressor". Like "as punishment you get to watch me get all lovey and attentive to your sibling". Not saying that is the intention, but I think it could easily come off that way.*/QUOTE]
> 
> I found it to absolutely come off that way. I defintitely felt I was actually creating rivalry by doing what was suggested in SWOR and it clealy 'felt' like punishment.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Thanks ICM, Maya, Piglet, et al, for this great discussion.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Yea, it has been good. Thanks, everyone!


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## tinaq (Aug 26, 2002)

I just have to say that I bought a copy of Wolf's book. First, I have never gone through a parenting book faster. It was such an easy read. Second, it's techniques have been *so* effective~ I'm just







Thanks!

Tina


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tinaq*
I just have to say that I bought a copy of Wolf's book. First, I have never gone through a parenting book faster. It was such an easy read. Second, it's techniques have been *so* effective~ I'm just







Thanks!

Tina


I know it's kind of unbelievable.

For those of us who have no problem with a "parents in charge" kind of parenting but don't want to punish, threaten, bribe or reward, it is hands down the best book out there.

Some of my very, very AP friends who are not comfortable with its approach have given it to dh's who they have been in conflict with over their dh's overly controlling and punishing style.

These moms find this style tolerable for their dh's to use and accept Wolf's belief that two people do NOT have to parent the same way.


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## tinaq (Aug 26, 2002)

Quote:

These moms find this style tolerable for their dh's to use and accept Wolf's belief that two people do NOT have to parent the same way.
This has been very comforting. It's funny b/c it fits well into our lifestyle (dh & I don't always agree, however, we do for the most part) & it seems so practical, but it's almost like I needed someone else's permission before being okay w/ it. I guess that's my own issue.









Tina


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Wolf's theory is that from a very young age kids can understand "With mom, I can negotiate the rules, but Dad doesn't allow that" or "With mom, she doesn't like it if we scream like banshees and run around the house, but Dad doesn't mind at all"

ITA with this. Kids really do get that their parents are different people.

A guy I work with has a wife that is deaf. They have an 18 month old dd. When the dad is home and their little girl needs something she will just ask for it. But if its just the mom that is home, she will go over to her and take her and show her what she wants!


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## tinaq (Aug 26, 2002)

I wish I could get my dh to understand & appreciate this. He feels though we absolutely should do the same things. However, he tends to be a lot more stern w/ ds than I would be & wants to handle things diff'tly. I think that (like Wolf says) as long as there is no physical harm (and I would incl. psychological harm) there should be no problem w/ this. I agree that kids see parents as diff't entities & will act diff'tly w/ each of them. I've seen evidence of this in the past week alone.

Thanks,
Tina


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

What about things that one parent feels are harmful? DH and I do some things differently and that's fine but when he is more relaxed about her diet and media consumption, I worry that this is sending DC the message that her father doesn’t care as much about her health, yk?


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
What about things that one parent feels are harmful? DH and I do some things differently and that's fine but when he is more relaxed about her diet and media consumption, I worry that this is sending DC the message that her father doesn't care as much about her health, yk?

My dh is more relaxed about the junk food too. I doubt the dc's see it as him caring less about their heath though. I think they see it as Mom being more uptight about food! :LOL He's not *too* bad. I can usually reign him in if it gets out of hand.


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

Wolf's theory is that from a very young age kids can understand "With mom, I can negotiate the rules, but Dad doesn't allow that" or "With mom, she doesn't like it if we scream like banshees and run around the house, but Dad doesn't mind at all"
I grew up with an extreme example of this, and I think it was very unhealthy. I think when, for example, dad isn't around and mom allows the dc to do things that dad has forbidden (or would get angry at) it makes the dc feel dishonest (it did me) -- and may even send the message that dishonesty is okay. And I think it is extremely dangerous to make a child feel dishonest.

I'm okay with dd standing on our bed and even jumping a bit. Papa, however, has made it clear that he does not want this. I simply tell dd that papa says he doesn't want her to jump on the bed.

I do realize, however, that in many situations it won't be as unhealthy a situation as it was for me.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PM*
I grew up with an extreme example of this, and I think it was very unhealthy. I think when, for example, dad isn't around and mom allows the dc to do things that dad has forbidden (or would get angry at) it makes the dc feel dishonest (it did me) -- and may even send the message that dishonesty is okay. And I think it is extremely dangerous to make a child feel dishonest.

I'm okay with dd standing on our bed and even jumping a bit. Papa, however, has made it clear that he does not want this. I simply tell dd that papa says he doesn't want her to jump on the bed.

I do realize, however, that in many situations it won't be as unhealthy a situation as it was for me.


I don't think the issue was differences but deciet. These are two very different things. If its "Don't let you dad know about X" that is the problem. When it's out in the open the issue evaporates.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luv my 2 sweeties*
My dh is more relaxed about the junk food too. I doubt the dc's see it as him caring less about their heath though.


ITA!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luv my 2 sweeties*
My dh is more relaxed about the junk food too. I doubt the dc's see it as him caring less about their heath though.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
ITA!


But, why wouldn't' they?

We discuss health issues. I talk to DC about how food makes her feel and healthy food helps her grow and be healthy. We talk about TV/video game and how it's very difficult for her to self-moderate, that she doesn't care for herself while watching and that it tends to make her feel frustrated sometimes afraid.

From this, it seems very natural to me that she might make the connection that her father doesn't care as much as I do about her health or emotional well being in regard to food and TV.

With some of the other stuff ~ what they wear, how loud they are, where they eat&#8230;~ I don't see where that's a big issue unless it's taken to extremes or if there is deception or it becomes very confusing for the child.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PM*
I think when, for example, dad isn't around and mom allows the dc to do things that dad has forbidden (or would get angry at) ...

I would also have a problem with this scenario. There are some things that DH and I do not negotiate about ~ things we have forbidden (like killing bugs for me or playing with DH's private things).

When I read that first example, I was thinking more about things that just bug one parent when they're there ~ like screaming, being dressed like a freak or things like that.


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## tinaq (Aug 26, 2002)

Quote:

I think when, for example, dad isn't around and mom allows the dc to do things that dad has forbidden (or would get angry at) ...
I agree w/ ICM. DH & I have the same ideas as what is & what isn't okay, but we just practice diff'tly. I hope that makes sense. If there's something that's okay to do for me, but not for him, we generally talk about it & come to a consensus.

Quote:

My dh is more relaxed about the junk food too.
This is my dh, too. He's not AS concerned as I am when it comes to ds's sugar intake, preservatives, & food coloring. Makes me crazy sometimes. :LOL

Tina


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
But, why wouldn't' they?

We discuss health issues. I talk to DC about how food makes her feel and healthy food helps her grow and be healthy. We talk about TV/video game and how it's very difficult for her to self-moderate, that she doesn't care for herself while watching and that it tends to make her feel frustrated sometimes afraid.

From this, it seems very natural to me that she might make the connection that her father doesn't care as much as I do about her health or emotional well being in regard to food and TV.

With some of the other stuff ~ what they wear, how loud they are, where they eat&#8230;~ I don't see where that's a big issue unless it's taken to extremes or if there is deception or it becomes very confusing for the child.


Because kids can understand a difference of opinion. And they can tell the difference between indifference ("I don't care what you do,eat all the junk food ya want, just leave me alone") and that differene of opinion ("oh, I know mommy thinks the m & m's aren't healthy but "what's the harm in a little" my grandpa used to say, right kiddo!").

In fact this last line is often used by my BIL with my nephew. Their mom (my SIL just kind of rolls her eyes). The kids understand that he loves, them and cares about them but just has a different view of these things.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I agree that many children can fully understand a difference of opinion. In our case, it’s not just a difference of opinion though but I do see what you mean.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tinaq*
This is my dh, too. He's not AS concerned as I am when it comes to ds's sugar intake, preservatives, & food coloring.


For those of you who have a similar issue ~ what do you think it is? Is it a difference of opinion about how harmful these things can be or how important a healthy diet is? Or, is it laziness, indifference or a feeling like it's the other parent's 'job'?


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## lizamann (Dec 2, 2004)

"For those of you who have a similar issue ~ what do you think it is? Is it a difference of opinion about how harmful these things can be or how important a healthy diet is? Or, is it laziness, indifference or a feeling like it's the other parent's 'job'?"

I think it depends on the particular person. Speaking for myself, I personally think that bad things in moderation (and even to excess sometimes) aren't a problem. So if I were married to you, it would be a difference in opinion.







I can imagine a scenario where a partner could be lazy or indifferent, but that assigns a negative intent to the dp. If you believe they have positive intentions, then the difference in opinion makes most sense.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lizamann*
Speaking for myself, I personally think that bad things in moderation (and even to excess sometimes) aren't a problem. So if I were married to you, it would be a difference in opinion.









No, it wouldn't because I agree.

The issue is that we're talking about are things that are a problem ~ have proven themselves to be a problem.

I've been thinking about this and I think the issue in our house might come down to communication. See, when I get into a bad habit with DC or allow something that I don't think is good in the long run (if I'm stressed or whatever) I talk to DC about this.

She and her father don't tend to discuss this. DH tends to get a little reactionary (like saying it's fine, healthy, no big deal) when I don't think he actually feels this. He just doesn't seem to be able to just admit reality ~ that he's tired, having a lazy moment or whatever.


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## tinaq (Aug 26, 2002)

ICM, I think it's more a lack of self-control on DH's part.







(Not that I'm able to maintain it all the time







). DH has an INCREDIBLE sweet/junk food tooth & most of our issues surround him buying sweets or stuff just plain nasty for you (e.g. Kool Aid







: ) usually in large amounts (@ Costco & such). I have tried to talk to him about the ramifications this has (particularly on me) on DS's behavior~ e.g. he







& he obsesses about these things if they're in the house. Twice, I've bagged up all the nasties & asked him to take them to work w/ him or dispose of them & he's been cool w/ that, but then the next time we're @ the grocery, he'll sneak in a box of Ding Dongs







For the most part, he GETS what I'm saying to him, he sees a difference in DS's behavior as a result & he agrees w/ me. He follows a relatively healthy diet, he just gets these urges sometimes & then of course DS wants some.

Question: I know our job is to model appropriate eating habits & such to our kids. What do you all think about having nasty stuff in the house & "hiding" them from your kids, eating them when they're asleep/away?


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