# Talk me out of turning dd forward facing! Small update



## Sfcmama (Aug 29, 2010)

DD will be one next week and is at least 23 pounds (haven't weighed her in several months) and has been in the 80th or so percentile for height her whole life. She is an extremely social little girl who loves loves loves people and interacting with them.... Which is why I'm guessing she HATES the car so much. It's really the only time she cries (or me for that matter) and the only time we get into power struggles. (she's got this magical wet noodle corkscrew maneuver that makes it impossible to get her in the seat!) I have a mirror which helps a little and she's mostly ok when someone rides in the back with her but that is rare as we are usually by ourselves in the car. I've tried both our comfortsport and complete air but she freaks out equally in both. (maybe slightly more in the CA because the wings make it harder to see me) She used to throw up a lot in the car when she was an infant so I wonder if she's also a little car sick RFing...

I know in my rational brain how much safer RFing (and dont really need reminding here, thanks) but my emotional brain wonders if she'd be happier FFing. Does the emotional safety outweigh the risk? Also, how much safer can RFing be if I'm constantly torquing my body around trying to hold her hand or offer her a toy while driving? And old macdonald is running out of animals on his farm;0)

Seriously, it's to a point where I try to only go places within walking distance which sucks because she loooooves going to visit friends and family, to the aquarium, library, etc.

Help! Thanks!


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## jocelyndale (Aug 28, 2006)

RF didn't scar my child any more than denying him my glass of wine (not while driving, of course). He cried about both when he was one. He hated being restrained in the carseat until he was 2yo or so. And then he grew to enjoy rides. At 3.75yo, he's more often RF than not. We rode the bus or walked quite a bit, saving car rides for times when DH could accompany us and one adult could sit in back.

RF is significantly safer at your daughter's age. It's so much safer that it should really be a non-issue. You've seen the crash test videos, right?


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## MariesMama (Sep 26, 2008)

I just wanted to say that the "magical wet noodle corkscrew maneuver" that is so obnoxious when they're rear-facing is even more so when facing forward, because she'll end up throwing herself onto the floor. Very social kids turn into backseat drivers when FFing! I had to turn DD around due to a crazy seating arrangement once, and all I heard was "Mama! Both hands on the wheel! Mama! Red means stop!" The red lights were brake lights, lol, but turning FFing is not necessarily going to turn her into a peaceful passenger. My DD also had to learn that "When Mama is driving, she can't get your toys. Look out the window." She'll get over it!


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## happysmileylady (Feb 6, 2009)

Quote:


> Also, how much safer can RFing be if I'm constantly torquing my body around trying to hold her hand or offer her a toy while driving?


 Rear facing or forward facing...it doesn't become an issue until you are actually in a wreck. Rear facing is safer in a wreck, but if it makes it more likely for you to wreck, that's not really safer. The safest thing, if you have to drive, is to of course not get into an accident.

So, what you have to ask yourself is, do you truely feel that having her rear facing makes you more likely to be in an accident? If the answer is yes, than turn her. If not, than don't.


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

I tried turning my kiddo forward facing as a one time thing to try to finish up a long trip home once... yeah... it was in no way better whatsoever. at all. it was horrible. really.

My kiddo for the most part is pretty good about the car now. She has a special blanket that I try to make sure we never forget (she needs it to sleep and its better in the car) and I have found a few go to songs that help her chill out (If I turn on 'if you're happy and you know it' it is almost guaranteed to have her happy in 5 seconds flat.) and honestly.... putting on a dvd of her favorite show works WONDERS when all else fails. Not thrilled with that but it definitely works when I need it to.


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## erthe_mama (Oct 19, 2006)

I'd experiment with it once or twice. If it makes a huge difference, I'd turn her. If not, keep her RF.


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## mama2soren (Feb 12, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *happysmileylady*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I disagree with the second quote. Whether she's RF or FF won't make it any more or less likely that someone ELSE will get in an accident with you. BUT, having her FF will make it 75% more likely that she will die or be seriously injured in such an accident.

Torquing your body around trying to hold her hand, etc., is not safe whether she's RF or FF. Many children go through a fussy-in-the-car period, especially around 1 year of age. My son certainly did! For most kids it doesn't really matter whether they're FF or RF. They just don't like being buckled in a car seat. She'll outgrow it. It's a totally frustrating stage but it will pass. You need to make sure that you're making safe choices, though, by not doing all that turning around while driving. If DS drops (or throws!) a toy, he knows he's out of luck until the next red light.

I think you need to ask yourself: What is the worst thing that could be done to her emotionally by keeping her RF? Answer: she'll be cranky for a while, and car rides will be pretty frustrating. But, what is the worst thing that could be done to her physically by turning her FF? She could be killed... and you would know that such a tragedy might have been preventable.


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

Her point wasn't that keeping her RF would make it more likely that someone would crash into her, her point was that an overly distraught and crying child who can't be consoled will distract mama, both with the sounds and also with the emotions that come from hearing your kiddo crying so much when you just want to fix it and can't. I've had times where kiddo was just crying and crying and I definitely wasn't being a safe driver. It was extremely difficult to pay attention to the road and my surroundings appropriately when there is a screaming child in the back seat trying to get my attention (and succeeding!) If EVERY car ride is like that, then FF just might be safer... sure it raises the damage that can be done to baby... but you can't stop a crying child like you can choose to not text or talk on the phone while driving. I'd argue that some distracting children can be worse than driving while somewhat intoxicated. If FF solves that problem, you are already safer.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mama2soren*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


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## starling&diesel (Nov 24, 2007)

Keep her rear-faced. Better a miserable babe than a babe with a spinal cord injury! How about a dvd player? New toys? Books on tape? Favourite car-only music? Special car-only treat in a special car-only snack cup?

RF is the only way that your child knows. Keep it that way for as long as you can!

(A message from your friendly local paramedic who gets flack all the time for my RF two-year-old ... )


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

It's not really an option to FF her, in terms of safety. If you were 100% certain that letting her play in the street would make her happy, would you do it? Or stick a fork in the lightsocket? No, of course not. FF is the same thing. It's not safe.

I agree to the DVD player, saved my LIFE. Or toys or put her seat more upright or get another seat or give her snacks and sippies, promise her a car when she is 16, buy her a unicorn, let her scream..whatever. It's just something you do.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Have you tried adjusting the seat angle? She can be as upright as 30 degrees and sometimes that helps.

But, yes, I would keep her rfing. Most kids that age hate being restrained. RFing or FFing, doesn't make much of a difference.


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## happysmileylady (Feb 6, 2009)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *treeoflife3* 

Her point wasn't that keeping her RF would make it more likely that someone would crash into her, her point was that an overly distraught and crying child who can't be consoled will distract mama, both with the sounds and also with the emotions that come from hearing your kiddo crying so much when you just want to fix it and can't. I've had times where kiddo was just crying and crying and I definitely wasn't being a safe driver. It was extremely difficult to pay attention to the road and my surroundings appropriately when there is a screaming child in the back seat trying to get my attention (and succeeding!) If EVERY car ride is like that, then FF just might be safer... sure it raises the damage that can be done to baby... but you can't stop a crying child like you can choose to not text or talk on the phone while driving. I'd argue that some distracting children can be worse than driving while somewhat intoxicated. If FF solves that problem, you are already safer.

nak. Thank You, yes, exactly.

Rear facing is less dangerous.....in an accident.

Forward facing is more dangerous....in an accident.

Distracted driving is responsible for thousands and thousands of accidents. A SCREAMING baby is distracting, whether mamma is trying to reach over the seat to provide comfort or not. A mamma who is distracted is more likely to get into an accident. Reducing the risk of getting into an accident makes the baby safer than rear facing ever could. Because it's the accident that is the real danger.

When I was in elementary school, I remember my dad coming home one evening in a pickup truck, with his mangled motorcycle in the truck bed. He was on his way to work and in an accident. His bike was totaled, and he was lucky to have survived with little injury as the force of the crash threw him from his bike and into a ditch across the street. The person who hit him was a mother distracted by her screaming kids and she ran a red light.

If turning a child reduces mammas risk of causing an accident, the child is automatically safer. It's safer to avoid an accident in the first place than to try to mitigate the risks of an accident already occuring.


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## Bebe's Mom (Jun 10, 2010)

DD was RF until around 13 months..She was really uncomfortable and just *hated* being RF. We turned her around and she is much happier because now she can see us. I agree that it is technically safer to keep her RF as long as possible, but if you are distracted by her crying while you are driving, you could increase your chances of having an accident..Just something to think about.


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

Of course, if its POSSIBLE to help them not be so unhappy RF, then you should exhaust all those options first (special toy/lovey, dvd, mirror, song, snack, drink, etc) but I do think some kids just seriously won't accept it. My kid was worse FF the one time I caved and tried and now we are just fine but some kids are like jekyll and hyde when it comes to RF and FF and nothing you can do will change that.

OP, exhaust all your options. Maybe there is a song that will comfort her or a snack you'll let her munch on (I always said I was never going to let my kids eat in the car... ha!) For military families, we have this thing called a 'daddy doll' where you can put a picture of the deployed parent (usually the dad, hence the name) and maybe that would help her... a doll with a picture of mommy on it. in the end though, if you just can't make it work a non distracted mom is safer for baby. Make sure you have the seat in perfectly and no second guessing on how correctly the straps are on and enjoy being able to focus so you can get to destinations without having to thank God (or whatever) that you made it safely despite the distraction and stress. One of the first rules in drivers ed was to not drive when you were really tired or really emotional because they are similar to driving under the influence. Its all a distraction that messes up your reaction times. An inconsolable baby or child I think falls under that.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Absolutely keep her RF. It's impossible to keep kids happy 100% of the time, and RF is SO much safer. Having a quiet kid doesn't make you any less likely to be hit by someone else.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

Personally, I would not be able to live with myself if my child were internally decapitated because I FF before I had to. I learned to force myself to tune out screaming by telling myself that they were safe and we would get to our destination in X minutes and pulling over to comfort them if absolutely necessary. I would be much more distracted by the fear of their imminent death in even a small accident if they were FF before necessary.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

For me it comes down to- could I live with myself if my child was injured or killed because of my decision. For that reason my kids will rf as long as possible. Ds is 2.5 and I am looking to get him a new seat to keep him rf as long as possible.

-Angela


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## happysmileylady (Feb 6, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *an_aurora*
> 
> Absolutely keep her RF. It's impossible to keep kids happy 100% of the time, and RF is SO much safer. Having a quiet kid doesn't make you any less likely to be hit by someone else.


But it can absolutely make it less likely for the mamma to hit someone else...or a tree...or a light pole...or miss the turn, or whatever. And if the mamma hits someone else, that is still an accident.


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## happysmileylady (Feb 6, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bri276*
> 
> Personally, I would not be able to live with myself if my child were internally decapitated because I FF before I had to. I learned to force myself to tune out screaming by telling myself that they were safe and we would get to our destination in X minutes and pulling over to comfort them if absolutely necessary. I would be much more distracted by the fear of their imminent death in even a small accident if they were FF before necessary.


That's why it's something that the mamma has to ask for herself. The question is, is the screaming child so distracting to the mamma that it puts them at risk of causing an accident? If not, then leave the child rear facing. But, if the screaming child puts mamma at risk of running a red light and hitting someone on a motorcycle, then try the child out FF. Because avoiding causing the accident in the first place is the safest option of all.


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## lookatreestar (Apr 14, 2008)

the videos on youtube are pretty convincing. now that my dd is almost 4 she begs to be rfing like her little brother. it really is more comfortable than her legs hanging down (esp with heavy shoes).


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## allical1284 (Mar 17, 2009)

I don't even consider turning my kids around at that age to even be an option. I agree with what many others have said; the whole hating the seat episodes are probably a phase that will lessen over time regardless of FF/RFing. I also agree with exhausting all other options first. At home, DD is TV-free, has VERY few battery operated toys, etc..., but in the car that kid can navigate an iphone like no other!!! I am perfectly ok with her flipping through pictures and playing crappy app games if it means keeping her happy and safe in the car. Also, she gets snacks on long trips that we would never dream of giving her at home! Oatmeal raisin cookies? fig newtons? Noooo problem! She can happily munch away on junk food while riding because a happy baby = a happy attentive momma on the road.


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## Sfcmama (Aug 29, 2010)

OP here. Thanks for everyone's responses and PMs. Special thanks to everyone who understands how distracting and dangerous it is to drive when your child is so completely distressed! I posted because I feel like I have exhausted all my options and genuinely do have concerns about my ability to drive safely under these conditions. This is not a phase as she has always been like this, its just worsened with age. I also maybe should have added that we almost always are driving stop and go in the city, which is a factor for me in my decision making algorithm (which includes other things like the high safety rating of my car, not texting/talking, being somewhat rested, etc.).

FWIW, a couple people sent me PMs supporting the decision to turn her if it really makes a huge difference because they didn't want to deal with reactions in the forum. I was surprised at first that they felt this way but, to be honest, I understand them after reading all the responses. As caring, well-intentioned parents, we all want the best for our child so it's difficult to hear people suggesting that you are deliberately exposing your child to harm by turning them (or vaxing/not vaxing, formula feeding, WOH, etc.). While I don't agree with some of the comparisons made, I'm going to sit with that idea before I make a decision. Given that accidents are unavoidable in life, I'm sure there will come a time that I I'll feel horrible for something that has happened to my daughter so I'm just preparing for that no matter what.

Ok. all that to say that I appreciate responses on both sides and have a lot to think about and discuss with dh. And as emotions get triggered, I also feel compelled to give thanks for the privileged problem that this is - if only all mamas in the world had safe transportation for their babes!


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## outlier (Sep 29, 2008)

I'll throw this out there only because I didn't see it mentioned, but have you considered using earplugs while driving? Turning down the noise a bit may help you focus more on the road. You would still be able to hear emergency vehicles and honking (well, as much as possible with a screaming child in the car), plus hearing-impaired people drive around just fine.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Have you taken her to Buy Buy Baby or another babysuperstore to try out carseats? You could just stick her in seats until she stops screaming in one.

Have you tried crazy cool "car" toys? I don't drive, but my ex does, and ds has TONS of little toys in the car (even though he's FF now).

Whats her favorite thing? Do you do plastic toys? Something bright and flashy might get her to chill out a bit.

If you've really done everything, find the safest, best forward facing carseat there is. And then see if it works. My good friends son has a 20minute car limit. After that, its all over. He just hates the car - he did RF, and he does FF - its better FF b/c now she can hand him snacks, sippy cups, whatever, but he just hates the car.

We all do the best we can with what we have. It's really all we can do.

Oh yeah, one more thing. Have you tried ignoring her? As in saying, Sorry babe, we're in the car, I'll get you out when we get there. And then just driving and ignoring her? The car was my one thing when ds was younger (and I actually drive) he went into the seat at the beginning of the ride, and then out when we got to our destination. Period. No getting out. If he was going to scream that was fine, but he still wasn't coming out. Now that she's just about a year old, you could probably start ignoring her and she'll get it eventually that screaming just doesn't work. At some point you have to stop letting the screaming upset you in the car, yk? I know that kicks me out of the AP club, but if her screaming upsets you that much, turning her around may not help b/c she might just keep screaming.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Well, I turned my oldest (a car screamer) around on his birthday. I didn't know about the benefits of extended rear facing, but I might have done the same thing had I known. Turning him around was like night and day in the car. I'm someone who actually got into an accident while trying to deal with him screaming in the back seat - luckily, it was only a fender bender. I kept my dd rear facing until she was 18 months or so (she was very, very big and outgrew the rear facing limit of her seat then) and my youngest until well past his third birthday, so I don't deny the positive effects of rear facing. It's just - sometimes a mom (and babe) can only take so much.


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## starling&diesel (Nov 24, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sfcmama*
> 
> OP here. Thanks for everyone's responses and PMs. Special thanks to everyone who understands how distracting and dangerous it is to drive when your child is so completely distressed! I posted because I feel like I have exhausted all my options and genuinely do have concerns about my ability to drive safely under these conditions. This is not a phase as she has always been like this, its just worsened with age. I also maybe should have added that we almost always are driving stop and go in the city, which is a factor for me in my decision making algorithm (which includes other things like the high safety rating of my car, not texting/talking, being somewhat rested, etc.).
> 
> ...


You titled this thread "Talk me out of turning dd forward facing!" This implies a desire to be swayed in a particular direction, so it's not surprising that the majority of reactions and posts are supportive of RF. I'd invite the people who PM'd you to join a more open discussion about their choices to support FF a child in this situation. Bring on the opinions!


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## JamieB (Apr 1, 2008)

OP if end end up turning her ff now, there is a really good chance that she may be happy to be turned back rfing when she is a little older. I've read about quite a few people who turned their older dc back to rfing after they learned about the benefits of extended rfing. Once they understand a little more it is less of an issue. My DS insisted that I turn his seat around so he could sit like his baby brother


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## Sfcmama (Aug 29, 2010)

Lots to respond to and the multi-quote drives me bonkers so I'll try refer to pp as I reply...

- Yes, i did title this "talk me out of turning dd" but I do appreciate the less common responses that basically gave me permission to be an imperfect mama for the sake of sanity (both mine and dd's). Sometimes we have to make less than perfect decisions in order to keep life bareable and it's nice to be able to do so without feeling judged. Maybe that's were the PM mamas were coming from? I dunno, but appreciate them as much as the other responses.

- I did have dd try every carseat in the store which is how we ended up with the two we have. Special car toys buy me about 5 minutes and I'm thinking the next trick I try is an iphone app. Our phones have been completely off limits until now so I hate opening that can of worms but will do so ONLY for the car.

- Ear plugs and toughing it out as she cries are just not sustainable options for me for many reasons. For one, I have a very sensitive job that requires me to be in a very balanced place in order to serve my clients. Although I only work 2 half days, I have to have those 2 car rides to grandma's to be without non-stop screaming. Just an unchangeable factor for me.

There's more but gotta run. Thanks again for everyone's thoughtful responses.


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## Sfcmama (Aug 29, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JamieB*
> 
> OP if end end up turning her ff now, there is a really good chance that she may be happy to be turned back rfing when she is a little older. I've read about quite a few people who turned their older dc back to rfing after they learned about the benefits of extended rfing. Once they understand a little more it is less of an issue. My DS insisted that I turn his seat around so he could sit like his baby brother


 Ahhh, yes. Another good point. It doesn't have to be as black and white as I was making it.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *starling&diesel*
> 
> You titled this thread "Talk me out of turning dd forward facing!" This implies a desire to be swayed in a particular direction, so it's not surprising that the majority of reactions and posts are supportive of RF. I'd invite the people who PM'd you to join a more open discussion about their choices to support FF a child in this situation. Bring on the opinions!


You know, I really wouldn't want to join a discussion of this nature when people imply that you will be causing your child to become internally decapitated if you turn them FF.

I think parents should do the absolute best they can, but when its unbearable, something needs to change.

OP, looks like if its just 2 car-rides a week your probably not at too much risk of getting into an accident. It also sounds like she might just hate the car - my friends baby does and its no fun. Hopefully turning her around will lessen how much she hates it, and it did slightly for my friend, but he still fusses and cries.


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

One of my 3 children hated rear-facing. I believe he was carsick (as I was as a child), and turning him to face forward at 1 did fix the problem immediately. I say try all of the suggestions, and if all else fails, turn her for a few days and see.

Sometimes I think people don't differentiate between a full-on hysterical child, vs one who is boo-hooing and fussing some. It is easy to say that you would never turn your child at age 1, if every single minute of every single car ride hasn't been pure hell since that child was born. Or some say their child did scream and they still didn't turn her; I'm just not able to block it out and drive safely like they can. So happy that my third baby likes to ride rear-facing, and he'll stay that way until 3 or 4.


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## jocelyndale (Aug 28, 2006)

My child was hysterical and generally inconsolable in the car until he was two. At two, he started tolerating rides up to 15 minutes and slowly grew to accept longer rides (the iPod Touch helped tremendously). So we didn't drive if we didn't have to. We took the bus. We walked. For grocery trips, one of us sat in back with him and held his hand and sang silly songs while he screamed. For longer trips, we'd stop frequently and someone would sit in back and try to distract him with books, silly songs, toys, etc. Turning him FF just wasn't an option. The legal minimum is just that--a minimum. And it was established when seats didn't or barely even met that standard for weight/height. We have much better seats now, so we can protect our kids better. Safety tests, real life situations, and various experts all show/agree that RF as long as possible (much longer than 12 mo) is significantly safer.

If you don't have to drive, then don't. Yes, you'll miss out on some things, but your child will eventually tolerate the car. A cushier seat, a more upright seat, a seat with no headwings--those may all help. A different position in the car may help.

http://carseatblog.com/5168/why-rear-facing-is-better-your-rf-link-guide/ <--all the stats you need. The last video there is an animation which shows the difference between RF and FF at this age.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Something else to consider- would you have been comfortable turning her at 6months? 8 months? 12 months? What if the law was 2yrs? Would you still consider turning before 2? All are of course less safe than rf. I have not really seen much data to show how much more unsafe- but the fact of the matter is that ff is dangerously less safe in a wreck than rf.

-Angela


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## Sfcmama (Aug 29, 2010)

Continued thanks for the additional pms I've gotten giving me support to be a less than perfect mom and turn dd if it will really bring peace and sanity. Not because I need permission to make whatever choice is best for our family but because I don't think us moms do enough to support one another in being non-judgmental about it all... I also appreciate the validation that driving with a screaming child can feel very unsafe!

Anyways, I caved and gave dd the darn iPhone yesterday with a baby app I tried for free. As a parent whose child has never watched tv (except for glimpses of adult tv in other people's home), this was a hard pill to swallow but wowzers, it sure did make for a quiet drive!!! I cannot believe I'm already at the stage of bargaining with special treats but if its the price to pay for safety, then so be it. Hopefully, this will work for awhile or at least until she's interested enough in solids to have a special snack or something else.

Thanks again for everyone's suggestions. This parenting business sure isn't for sissies!!! ;0)


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

I'm glad to hear you got some much-needed peace in the car  My son was a screamer until very recently (and he still screams if we are in the car for more than an hour). Now his favorite form of entertainment is taking off his boots, removing his socks, putting them on his hands, and having his hands "talk" to each other. Of course he normally has a sister or two next to him to keep him company as well. The Cascadian Farms version of FrootLoops are a huge hit in a pinch.


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## NaaNaa (Jan 6, 2011)

Forgive me is someone has already posted something similar, as I didn't have time to read all the replies.

Everyone always assumes (as did I) that RF is always safer, but that's not always the case. Your child's weight and height are very important factors to which is safest. For example my DS has ALWAYS been off the charts (in the 100+ percentile for height and weight) and according to several articles I've read, I should have switched him to FF prior to his first birthday because he was too tall. Safety and FF/RF also depends on the type of car seat you have. A general rule of thumb (or so I've been told) is where your child's feet rest in the RF position. Do her heals rest past the edge of the car seat base? If so, she's too tall for that particular seat and could hurt her legs badly in the event of an accident.

Also, most (not all) car seats are meant to be reclined to a certain level in the RF position. My DS HATED being in that position and strained his neck in an effort to sit up straight. That's dangerous too. If your child's size and car seat are accommodating - by all means, keep them FF as long as possible. If not, you may need to decide which risks are riskier. Not an easy chore!

FF is MUCH easier, and much more pleasant for my DS, so I understand the temptation. Maybe there are some cool toys and/or larger mirrors that you could attach to the backseat to keep her entertained a little longer? I use to bring my son's lacing beads with us, he'd hold one end of the string and I'd slide beads, toys and other goodies to him. He loved it.

Good luck!


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NaaNaa*
> 
> Forgive me is someone has already posted something similar, as I didn't have time to read all the replies.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but this is absolutely not true. A child's height matters in rear facing only in terms of where their heads hit on the top of the seat and where the straps of the seat are in comparison to their shoulders, which will vary from seat to seat and child to child (depending upon if they are long or short waisted, two children of the same height could outgrow the same seat at different times. Even if it is true that a child is more likely to break their legs in an accident when their legs touch the back of the seat (and I'm not sure that has been established scientifically), they are more likely to endure spinal injuries when forward facing. I'd certainly prefer my child to break their legs than their spine.

OP, I'm glad you found something that will keep her facing rearward longer. Even though I would have supported a decision to turn her (as I said upthread, I got into an accident with a child who screamed int he car!), if you can keep her calm while rear-facing, that's just great. I hope it keeps helping!


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NaaNaa*
> 
> Forgive me is someone has already posted something similar, as I didn't have time to read all the replies.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, this is extremely inaccurate. First, there is no such thing as being in the "120+th percentile". That's just not even possible 

Next, there are seats that can accommodate very tall children (40+inches). The child's leg length has absolutely *no* bearing whatsoever on their ability to RF. A child is more in danger of leg injuries being FF than they are being RF. Also, all convertibles can be installed more upright than the newborn 45* angle.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Actually, a child's legs are much more likely to be injured forward-facing.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17497521&ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Even children in the 120th percentile (which is statistically impossible) are safest RFing to the limits of their seats. Larger children may reach those limits earlier, but there are very very few children who will max out a convertible before age two.

ETA: cross-post and we made the same points!


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

To the OP: I am the most anti-media-for-children person you're ever likely to meet. I am also generally opposed to bribes. But in cases of health and safety, where the child's opinion and what I know objectively is best come in conflict-- absolutely, I will sweeten the deal. Now, I also understand turning them when the situation becomes unbearable-- my DS has really extreme motion sickness issues while rear-facing. After cleaning vomit off him, three seats, and three kids (three across in one backseat) I finally turned him around, before he'd really outgrown his seat RFing. His twin stayed RFing a whole year longer. To me, the tradeoff was clear-- he was vomiting six or eight times a week, and that's dangerous. FFing, he now vomits only in stop-and-go traffic, or on very windy roads-- with some careful use of candied ginger and light snacks, we've got it down to twice a month or so. He was 23 months when I turned him.

But in the case of protest and crying (and I had a carseat screamer, and I KNOW how that is)-- I think I'd do everything I could think of, before turning the child. I'd install a DVD player, before I'd turn a child in the second year. I'd offer lollipops, every single day if necessary. Whatever it took, and I wouldn't turn the child until I'd exhausted the possibilities. (Well, within reason-- lest you go thinking I'm going to go offering wine and cigars!







). To me, the danger is just too big. Car wrecks aren't rare, and the research is so clear on rear-facing being so much safer.

Well, maybe not lollipops-- thinking about that, that's not a good idea, especially for a very little one. Choking, right? But you get the idea-- special snacks that ordinarily I don't offer.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Ok so I am not going to tell you to turn her or not. Totally your decision. Full disclosure DD is going to be 20 months in a few days and I do sometimes turn her forward facing and have been since she was about 17 months. DD hated the car seat from day 1. Screamed every time we put her in it and more than once I drove home with tears on my face from her hysterics. I think it is really easy for people to sit and type that you should just deal with your kid screaming and learn to ignore, I actually read someone suggested wearing ear plugs?? Seriously? I would never ever do that. What if your DD started gagging or choking or something and you had no idea because you didn't hear it?

I know a lot of you mamas will understand what I mean when I say it is physically painful to hear your LO shrieking their heads off. I visit my mother often with DD and they live over 3 hours away. The car rides when she was around a year and still screaming her head off the entire drive were absolute torture for me and her as well. She was panicking and truly hysterical.

Now that DD is older she is much much more happy in the car and she does most of the time ride RF. If we are having a really bad trip though and she is really miserable I will stop the car and turn her because for my part I am driving far more dangerously as I try to distract her when she is hysterical in the back. Forward Facing my DD is happy as a clam. She sits and watches the vehicles and buildings go by, not a grumpy peep out of her.

I will say though that when she was going forward facing one afternoon we were in the most minor of fender benders and the only thought I had was panic because she was forward facing (maybe 19 months old). I have cut down on the FF since that incident but I still do it if I have to.

We all know the stats but sometimes you just have to do what works best for your family. Good luck. Oh as a final note, I myself would not turn a 1 year old FF until they were a bit older but I certainly won't judge you for doing what you have to do!


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## NaaNaa (Jan 6, 2011)

I'm not claiming to be an expert... I agree RF is safer is MOST ways. I based my decision to switch to FF based on the strong suggestions of our ped and a friend who works for a major car seat manufacturer (both whom warned me about the position of their feet). That was news to me as well.

Oh and the 120 was a typo. That two should have been a 0 for 100+. My DS was always off the charts that my ped thought it would be fun to create an extended version based on her clients. My 12 month old surpassed every single one of her 24 month old patients in height and weight. If there could be a 120%, I'm sure he would qualify.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

That was misinformation on their part. There is absolutely no reason to turn FF once the feet hit the back of the seat.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *an_aurora*
> 
> That was misinformation on their part. There is absolutely no reason to turn FF once the feet hit the back of the seat.


Yeah that. Statistically leg injuries are more likely ff. So if you're truly concerned about leg injuries in a crash, turn the child back rf if they still fit.

-Angela


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## Annie Mac (Dec 30, 2009)

Interesting thread. I knew RF was better, but didn't really know why. I went to youtube and watched a few videos. TBH, I could have done without the schlocky Sarah McLachlan music meant to (successfully) evoke a certain emotion in me and I definitely could have done without the scare tactics of pictures of real children with broken necks (OK, child), but the stats were there & I did appreciate the crash test dummies footage. I do get tired of the emotional manipulation though...why do people think we won't do what's right for our children unless they terrify us into it? I'm left feeling a little ill, but resolved that I will keep my LO RF. I was thinking about turning her when she turned one.

Sorry for the hijack. Just thought you fierce Mama Bears out there would like to know you have educated at least one mother.  Thankfully, my LO is OK in the carseat & doesn't kick up too much of a fuss back there.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

I hate all the tug-at-your-heartstrings stuff in those videos, too. But like you I really appreciated the chance to actually view the crash tests--- in the one where they show you the child forward and rear facing, it's so easy to see how much better a job a rear-facing seat does of protecting the spine and neck. To me, that was what was most convincing-- seeing it in action, for myself. I turned my DD1 at 16 months-- I didn't know any better, then, and the seats had much lower rear-facing limits than they do now. Even at 16 months, she was the oldest baby I knew who was still rear-facing. By the time my other two arrived, I'd learned a bit more.


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## Sfcmama (Aug 29, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Annie Mac*
> 
> Interesting thread. I knew RF was better, but didn't really know why. I went to youtube and watched a few videos. TBH, I could have done without the schlocky Sarah McLachlan music meant to (successfully) evoke a certain emotion in me and I definitely could have done without the scare tactics of pictures of real children with broken necks (OK, child), but the stats were there & I did appreciate the crash test dummies footage. I do get tired of the emotional manipulation though...why do people think we won't do what's right for our children unless they terrify us into it? I'm left feeling a little ill, but resolved that I will keep my LO RF. I was thinking about turning her when she turned one.
> 
> ...


not hijacking at all. I had no idea what a hot topic this was! I haven't watched that video because I cannot stand the emotional manipulation bit. Just give me the numbers and I'll make a well-informed decision that best suits my family. What I want to know is, if RFing is so much safer, why isn't there more info about in the mainstream parenting world? Where's the back-to-sleep-like campaign for RFing?!


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## 4myfinn (Dec 29, 2009)

My son (17 mo) is a screamer too- always has been- and he has quite the set of lungs. His scream is piercing and makes me cringe. But we've managed to keep him RFing by doing a few things. First, I moved his seat from the center position to next to the window. He can see out the window and is a little happier. I also bought a DVD player (a Sylvania one at Costco) that comes with velcro straps to secure it to the headrest. That works in a pinch. I also keep a stack of his favorite books next to his seat in the car.

Personally, I would do pretty much anything before turning him FFing. I know how it feels to dread car rides because you know your LO will scream. I know what it's like to have to wrestle him into the seat (we call it his alligator roll). We're pretty much just trying to limp to age 2 around here.


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## mkksmom (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sfcmama*
> 
> not hijacking at all. I had no idea what a hot topic this was! I haven't watched that video because I cannot stand the emotional manipulation bit. Just give me the numbers and I'll make a well-informed decision that best suits my family. What I want to know is, if RFing is so much safer, why isn't there more info about in the mainstream parenting world? Where's the back-to-sleep-like campaign for RFing?!


I'm starting to see the campaign. At least 3 if not more of my 16 MO's well baby visits included a talk on how much safer they are RFing and they recommend a minimum of 2 years. This was more than one doc (we go to a large practice), and I was happy to see that they are up to date and really making sure all the parents know.


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## Marissamom (Dec 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sfcmama*
> 
> not hijacking at all. I had no idea what a hot topic this was! I haven't watched that video because I cannot stand the emotional manipulation bit. Just give me the numbers and I'll make a well-informed decision that best suits my family. What I want to know is, if RFing is so much safer, why isn't there more info about in the mainstream parenting world? Where's the back-to-sleep-like campaign for RFing?!


I think it's starting. the AAP changed their recommendation not too long ago to RFing longer, but it really wasn't that long ago that we started keeping babies RFing longer than 6 months (sometime in between 16 and 19 years ago), there are still people who can't get the idea of over 1 and over 20lbs. it's going to be a gradual battle. (there are still people who disagree with back-to-sleep, and that campaign was started a long time ago)


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sfcmama*
> 
> not hijacking at all. I had no idea what a hot topic this was! I haven't watched that video because I cannot stand the emotional manipulation bit. Just give me the numbers and I'll make a well-informed decision that best suits my family. What I want to know is, if RFing is so much safer, why isn't there more info about in the mainstream parenting world? Where's the back-to-sleep-like campaign for RFing?!


I watched the video with the sound on mute. That way I was able to see the slides with the numbers, and watch the crash dummies without the sappy music.


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## outlier (Sep 29, 2008)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> I actually read someone suggested wearing ear plugs?? Seriously? I would never ever do that. What if your DD started gagging or choking or something and you had no idea because you didn't hear it?










You would be able to hear that. Ear plugs simply turn down the volume some, they don't make you deaf. And as I said, I was just throwing that out there as a possibility. Brainstorming and all that.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outlier*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


ok we use professional grade ear muffs and plugs in this household because we go to a lot of concerts and while I know that they tone down the volume and buffer sounds for your ears I'm going to have to disagree. If someone is choking exactly how much sound are they making? Isn't it in fact a pronounced lack of sound, so no I don't think wearing ear plugs would ever be safe in the car to drown out a kids screaming. My kid used to be a terrible car screamer and I still never considered ear plugs.


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## leighi123 (Nov 14, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sfcmama*
> 
> not hijacking at all. I had no idea what a hot topic this was! I haven't watched that video because I cannot stand the emotional manipulation bit. Just give me the numbers and I'll make a well-informed decision that best suits my family. What I want to know is, if RFing is so much safer, why isn't there more info about in the mainstream parenting world? Where's the back-to-sleep-like campaign for RFing?!


1. because we are still trying to get parents to rearface to a minimum of a 1 and 20, there are still too many people saying "they are 10months old, close enough" or " well my 6month old is 22lbs already"....

2. we ARE making improvements to suggest kids rearface longer - we now have seats in the U.S. that rearface to 40lbs and 45lbs, these were not around just a short time ago.

3. Many many parents base their carseat use on what their pediatrician says. But pediatricians have ZERO carseat training, and arent updated on changes (rearface to the limits) so often make totally false recomondations.


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## Sfcmama (Aug 29, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *leighi123*
> 
> 3. Many many parents base their carseat use on what their pediatrician says. But pediatricians have ZERO carseat training, and arent updated on changes (rearface to the limits) so often make totally false recomondations.


Just like how pediatricians have no education in lactation! Yet we our culture continues to regard them as experts in all things child...


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Not much!! Choking can definitely be a silent thing!! I'm with you LDavis.


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## outlier (Sep 29, 2008)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Quiet baby in the car = no need for earplugs, yes?


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outlier*
> 
> Quiet baby in the car = no need for earplugs, yes?


Yeah, quiet baby, no earplugs. But even with a loud baby, or screaming baby, I wouldn't recommend wearing earplugs.


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