# 'Natural' people taking the drugs from demon corps.



## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

How do people feel about being 'environmentally conscious' and taking drugs made by some of the largest polluters in the world?

Or being a 'natural family living' person and consuming drugs made by companies whose products have harmed and killed thousands?

For example: Dow Corning made Agent Orange and Naplam. Also silicone breast implants that have harmed many women (and to whom Dow is now paying a billion dollar settlement).

What else does Dow make?

Clomid. Know anyone who takes that?

Dow partners with Eli Lily to create Dow Elanco which is the largest producer of insecticides and fungicides in the world.

What does Eli Lily make?

Prozac. Anyone on Prozac?

Eli Lily also makes Tebuthiuron which kills everything in the soil so nothing can grow on it ever again.

In addition to the millions of pounds of industrial waste created by these companies.


----------



## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

Tough call sometimes.

I agree that the companies are not something I would choose to support. And don't in most cases.

However, my asthma inhalers are non-negotiable. And that is a life/death situation. It is quite possible to have a life threatening asthma attack. Glaxo Smith Kline makes my inhalers. So if there were another way to control my asthma and preserve my life, I would be thrilled to find it and stop supporting these companies. But I have tried a lot of things, including taking Oregano oil. Bottom line, when my lungs seize, I need that inhaler.

As for drugs like Clomid...yes I have taken it, and will likely take it again. That one, I will say, is selfish. I want a baby, and withouth Clomid, it ain't happening.

I don't know how to find the line between taking drugs put out by non-socially conscious corporations and not being healthy.

This is an issue that I have thought long about. Infertility is immediately treated with drugs, and with interventions. I am not keen on docs, or on interventions. Alternative treatments are very good when used in conjunction with allopathic methods. But by themselves, have a fairly small success rate.

I guess what I am saying is I don't know.









But now you can all say you know someone who has taken Clomid. :LOL


----------



## magnoliablue (Dec 29, 2002)

I choose the natural alternative to medications in all cases, and have been fortunate to not need any prescription drugs. DP, however, takes some for bp and for Type2 diabetes. The lesser of two evils is he takes the drugs and stays in good health, if he doesn't, his health deteriorates and ..well, I really do not want to think about the worst that could happen.

Yes, I admit it could be seen as hypocritical, to call yourself natural and then take Prozac or whatever, but sometimes there are just no other options for someone struggling with mental health issues,etc. Their wellbeing has to take precedence over their principles. I do know there are natural remedies for most every ailment out there, and always refer friends diagnosed with something to try those options first and foremost. But sadly, there are times when the choice has to be to medicate using conventional methods. If it is the only choice to keep a person functioning to the best of their ability, I feel principles have to be the exception, rather than the rule.


----------



## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Our deaths from treatable conditions would serve what purpose?


----------



## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *playdoh*
How do people feel about being 'environmentally conscious' and taking drugs made by some of the largest polluters in the world?

Or being a 'natural family living' person and consuming drugs made by companies whose products have harmed and killed thousands?

For example: Dow Corning made Agent Orange and Naplam. Also silicone breast implants that have harmed many women (and to whom Dow is now paying a billion dollar settlement).

What else does Dow make?

Clomid. Know anyone who takes that?

Dow partners with Eli Lily to create Dow Elanco which is the largest producer of insecticides and fungicides in the world.

What does Eli Lily make?

Prozac. Anyone on Prozac?

Eli Lily also makes Tebuthiuron which kills everything in the soil so nothing can grow on it ever again.

In addition to the millions of pounds of industrial waste created by these companies.

If I needed Clomid, I would take it. If Prozac were the only med that would work for me, I would take it.


----------



## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Yeah, I'm with Meiri.

I guess dying for a cause is sometimes the ultimate in activism.. but I don't think dying because pharmaceutical companies are evil is.

I need to be alive in order to speak my truth and change things.

And sometimes that means taking conventional medicines.

If I could get 'em somewhere else.. I would.. but that's the whole problem, isn't it?

The companies are evil.. but I don't think the medicines themselves always are.


----------



## librarymom (May 25, 2004)

well playdoh, I applaud you for asking. As a relative newbie here, and less "crunchy" than many of you, this is a question I have asked myself several times. I definitely do not want anyone to die, of course, but it is an interesting dichotomy.


----------



## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

This is an interesting question. I think we all have our own ideas of what it means to be environmentally conscious and the extent to which we are willing to sacrifice our own comfort, desires and even our health for that ideal. My big issue is overpopulation. I don't see how you can claim to be an environmentally conscious person and have more than two children, but others don't see that at all.

I hate pharma companies as much as the next person, but I wouldn't go without life saving medications to prevent them from making a profit.

I can come up with a list of dozens of non-pharma companies that commit environmental atrocities. How many environmentally conscious people own refrigerators or ovens made by General Electric? How many have wallpaper on their walls made by ICI Americas? Or house paint made by Courtaulds? Is buying drugs somehow worse than these other things in your mind?


----------



## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Some of us rely on on allopathic drugs made by big corporations because we have no choice. In many cases, the damage done to our bodies is a direct result of the drugs or diets that our PARENTS chose for us as children, often thinking they were doing "the right thing". What other option does a type one diabetic have, for example?


----------



## pumpkin (Apr 8, 2003)

I'm not willing to take this stand. Like others, for me this is a simple choice. With my medication I live. Without it I die, its not even an issue of I would probably die, it is a certainty.


----------



## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Let's turn this around.

Just how natural is anything done by human beings?
Is clothing natural? I don't see shirts, skirts, pants, or diapers growing from the trees.
Is cooking natural? No, but cooking improves the flavor and nutrient value of most food items by making the nutrients more digestable.
Is housing natural? Our earliest ancestors lived under rock shelters and/or under the open sky. Shall we return to that?
Is there a natural societal arrangement? I don't think so. There is wide variation in the ways human groups have organized themselves over the ages.

Let's face it. We live NOW. We have to deal with what the world is NOW. We have to do our best to balance our need to function in the Here and Now with not damaging the planet any further.

I suppose we could lose the fridge and buy our food fresh everyday, but it would still have been refrigerated in the store and in transport. I suppose we could lose the washer and dryer, but then I'd be spending ALL my time doing laundry and have no time to burn gas going to the store everyday to buy the daily food. I suppose we could all grow our own food, but then there'd be precious little forest left as we all returned to less efficient individual small farms. Though where I'd grow anything under all the drying laundry, I don't know.









See my point?


----------



## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

I look at this question a different way--is consumption (or lack of consumption) really an effective form of activism?

If a mythical "Green, Inc." started producing a Prozac equivalent and 10,000 environmentally conscious Prozac users switched to Green, Inc's product, would the world be rid of Tebuthiuron? Even if those 10,000 people wrote to Eli Lily and explained why they're stopping their prescriptions and Prozac was no longer profitable for Eli Lily, they'd just stop selling it, but would continue to make a profit on the Tebuthiuron.

I'm not trying to be a defeatist, but maybe a better way to clean up the drug companies is to lobby for the banning of dangerous insecticides and to lobby for laws requiring drug companies (and others) to stop polluting. I know that with large corporations in control of gov't, this seems like an impossible task, but silently refusing to use certain drugs is unlikely to have any impact on the environment.

I really think that campaign finance reform is the single most important issue facing our country. Maybe if large corps couldn't buy politicians, the people's voices would be heard. I can't imagine any ordinary person seeing a need for a poison like Tebuthiuron.


----------



## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

I too take things because I haven't found an alternative.

I take nortriptyline for headaches, I have seen a wholistic health practitioner about it. She believes I have an overgrowth of yeast but I can't afford her treatments and the diet she wants me to go on, imo is not healthy. I am doing what I can to reduce the yeast. If it takes several years then I guess so be it, but I cannot afford to not take the nortriptyline(which is cheaper than her treatments) I refuse to live with daily headaches for weeks at a time again.

I take propranalol for arrhythmia that they don't know why I have it.

I know both of those drugs are just blankets treating the symptoms without treating the cause but until we can find the cause for them there isn't much I can do.

I also take B12 shots, now if someone has a way I can increase my B12 without the shots but in a way other than ingesting it feel free to enlighten me.









I hate taking meds and as soon as I can get off of them I will.


----------



## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meiri*
...Just how natural is anything done by human beings?
Is clothing natural? I don't see shirts, skirts, pants, or diapers growing from the trees...

Sorry to go OT, but wouldn't a diaper tree be the cutest thing ever???

Quote:


Originally Posted by *daylily*
... but maybe a better way to clean up the drug companies is to lobby for the banning of dangerous insecticides and to lobby for laws requiring drug companies (and others) to stop polluting...

I agree with this. These companies have done horrible things, no excuses there. However, they have also produced a lot of useful things. I don't think we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater in this case.


----------



## MommyBear (Dec 19, 2001)

Like the others here I take a drug that sustains my life. Humalog Inulsin produced by the Eli Lilly corp. Without it, I would be dead in less than a week.

Sometimes I think it is more important that we keep ourselves healthy and strong so we can speak against the enemy rather than being one of very very few that would put my life down to make a statement. I also have to be around to teach my children and in doing that, am creating a new generation of voices to stand against what we believe to be wrong.


----------



## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Mommybear, your IDDM is an excellent example.

Should she die instead of taking her humalog? I don't think so.

Quote:

Their wellbeing has to take precedence over their principles
Well said.

Sometimes its easy to be an activist against the pharmaceutical giants when you are seemingly healthy. Then you or someone you love becomes gravely ill, or in a traumatic accident and then many would gladly jump into bed with Eli Lilly if it saves the life of their child, or they have been diagnosed with stage 4 ovarian cancer, or have raging blood sugars only Humalog insulin can control.

I am sure many of the so called naturalists would gag and vomit at some of the drugs we use in the ER and ICU when they saw who made them. And take a look on the oncology unit and see who some of the manufacturers are of some of the most progressive and therapeutic treatments are.

Playdoh, what would you do in the situations i described? Would you die from ovarian cancer in the name of activism, leaving your children m,motherless? would you deny your child Humalog insulin to make a point? I am curious also.

Meiri, you made a good point also.

Dont misudenrstand me, i see what you are saying, i do. But how do we balance the good of the drugs with some of the evil?


----------



## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Yes, a diaper tree would be very cute.









Quote:

Dont misudenrstand me, i see what you are saying, i do. But how do we balance the good of the drugs with some of the evil?
That is the $65,000,000 question, isn't it?

I think strengthening the anti-pollution laws, looking for ways to recycle or otherwise clean up the waste products from production are more the routes to go here.

I don't think we can go backwards in terms of technology at this point.

Computers don't grow on trees either.


----------



## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

This post comes with a warning: THIS IS ABOUT ME. NOT ABOUT "YOU", WHOEVER "YOU" MIGHT BE. I AM NOT JUDGING ANYONE, OK?

I don't use any drugs except aspirin, and that only when I am somewhere I cannot get willow bark. No over the counter drugs. No prescription drugs. I do occasionally take a magnesium supplement when I know I'm a little mag deficient.

And, you know, I'm not immortal. I will die of something. I regard all those pharmaceuticals as perhaps (but not always, given side-effects) life _extending_ but, never, ever, life _saving_.

I was diagnosed as asthmatic as a child. So what. I sometimes have trouble breathing now. I do yoga breathing exercises to counteract that. I learned many other techniques as a jock in my teens. You can do a lot with breath. Change your blood pressure. Change your heartrate. Your blood oxygenation. Maybe it won't work someday. Then I'll die. So?

Death is what gives life meaning.

I was also diagnosed as having kidney problems. I was told I'd be on dialysis by the time I was 40 (if I lived that long). Well, I just tuyrned 38. No sign of dialysis yet and, you know what? If I'm ever told I need it, I say no.

I might take up glacier climbing instead. I have no intention of dying in a hospital.

This is not because I think the pharmaceutical companies are horrible (although I _do_ think that). It is because I know I have to die someday. I would prefer that it happen, or not, without trying to fight it.

I died when a small child. I was dragged back. I've spent many, many years trying to figure out what that was all about. Depending on my state of mind, I come to all kinds of different conclusions. All I DO really know from that event was that it was wonderful. And that clinging to "life" (which we really don't know what to do with anyhow) is, for me, foolish.


----------



## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I wonder what "natural" product the OP used to type this message on. Certainly not a product created by a man who possesses more wealth than the bottom 48% population economically of the United States combined? And I wonder what natural, non-polluting method of powering this machine that she used. And if she drove a car to buy it, or walked to the factory and carried it home herself rather than having it shipped to her house in a vehicle.

It is really, really easy for someone without a life-threatening illness to trash other people who need "demon" phramacueticals to stay alive.

I can't believe people sit around and think of this crap, ways to judge other people without really looking at themselves.


----------



## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Not only is it easy for someone to judge someone else for taking a medication that protects their life or significantly improves the quality of their life, it is cruel and just plain mean.


----------



## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

Mothra: The way I read the OP was as an honest question. I really think playdoh is asking for how people who are interested in environmental issues resolve this apparent contradiction.

Life is full of contradictions. I don't think she is "judging" anyone for them.

Perhaps she is trying to resolve these things in her own mind and wanted to hear how others do it.


----------



## shantimama (Mar 11, 2002)

I agree - I re-read the OP and didn't see anything about trashing people who use drugs, judging them or being cruel and mean. The question was about how people feel about using them with the abysmal environmental records these companies have. It wasn't an either/or question - either you care about the environment or you mindlessly use drugs.

I have family members who depend on certain drugs to either keep them alive or to make their quality of life bearable. That doesn't mean that I can't question the manufacturer's practises. Keep providing the medicines but work harder to make it sustainable! And how about making them more accessible to people who need them while you are at it! (Thinking specifically of AIDS drugs for people in Africa.)


----------



## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetbaby3*
Playdoh, what would you do in the situations i described? Would you die from ovarian cancer in the name of activism, leaving your children m,motherless? would you deny your child Humalog insulin to make a point? I am curious also.

Not sure. That's why I'm asking aloud and dodging the hateballs of 'cruel, mean' judger! :LOL I thought that was a hoot.

You mention that it's 'easy' to be an activist against world polluters like Elanco when one is healthy. But that isn't my experience of 'easy'. I found I had the most powerful and for me 'easy' voice when I had been harmed by big companies. That's when I had legal ground given to me to stand on and speak.

So that was easy.









When you read the clinical trials and efficacy rates for drugs like the ovarian cancer scenario you describe, it isn't 100% either way. Would that drug save me? We don't know. Would it save everyone with ovarian cancer? No.

So it's a personal choice without a guaranteed outcome.

I do not wish to be part of the problem so when I was in a locked down unit in a psych ward and had to crawl my way (figuratively) back to mental health, I did it without drugs. When I was dx'd with FM, I decided against any medication, using only alternative medicine and the power of my own mind.

I do think that too many people take too much Prozac, for example. I don't think most seek out alternatives, but trust their doctor to cure it with the med. I do wonder about Clomid and such...not sure we know the effects of these things and of course, as I stated in the OP, the more people who buy these drugs, the wealthier these evil companies become.

I wouldn't deny my child the right to his/her medication. I'd fight for every alternative and still work hard to bite the hand that was feeding us the meds (pharm company). But I'm like a lot of moms, you do whatever for your child even kill.


----------



## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Unless you are completely self-sufficient, using only second-hand goods, engaging only in the barter system, only adopting children, never driving a car, and living wholly off the grid, you are likely supporting "demon corps" and contributing the environmental degradation of the planet. Hell, even if you do all that, you still leave an environmental footprint of destruction!

As another poster as noted, the computer that you wrote your message on, playdoh, is filled with toxins, and was probably made by exploitative corporations with parts that came from other exploitative corporations.

Purity is an illusion.


----------



## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

I am not interested in purity on any level.


----------



## Unoppressed MAMA Q (Jun 13, 2004)

i do not see why so many are offended by playdoh's OP. the defensiveness is a bit immature and unnerving.
it's an interesting idea, and interesting to read other's thoughts.
i don't think the OP was so much about a perfect world covered in pansies and rainbows, as about the specific concept of drug companies and how they effect our mental landscape.
whatever.
personally, i do not, will not, take pharmaceuticals. really. they don't live here. i don't share the standard view of disease, death, and wellness as most people here(contemporary america). everyone has a different perspective on this. i do not believe that those type of drugs are ever a good answer. they really aren't about fixing anything. every body is different, but they are all amazing and capable of a lot of healing and recovery.
if i truly believed that drugs like that would save my kids' life, i would have some soul searching to do. but i don't believe that clinging to life is a wise move. ok, i guess i'm going to die at some point, from some thing, and that doesn't bother me as much as the idea of a life spent in a drugstore line.
yeah, flame me for that last sentence, if you're feeling all judged. it's really not about you, it's just how i view my place in the world.
anyway, i mostly chimed in to pose another question. how do you all feel about the whole drug advertisement thing? i don't watch tv, so maybe i'm disproportionately aware of commercial infringement on my mental landscape. when i hear 'ask your doctor if XXX is right for you' i just want to fuckin' scream!
my children don't take drugs. unless you count echinacea, which i've given them a few drops of once or twice. we do see a chiropractor periodically, avoid vaccinations and weird food additives/preservatives, practice a weaning free life, and if i could break my internet habit, would spend no time in front of screens that tell us what to do. this works for us. i sincerely believe that my kids will never feel the need to call on eli lilly (in my hometown of indianapolis, it's a HUGE 'campus' and scary looking for me to think about what goes on!) or merck. these corps are much younger than people who lived simpler, healthier lives than we do. at the risk of overglorifying the ancestry, i don't think that most of them would be into the glaxosmithkline scene either.
health is more than the absence of acute discomfort. the notions of 'symptoms' and 'side-effects' have really gone a long way to screw up our logical brains.
interesting thread, playdoh, thanks for making me think!


----------



## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Whatever works for you. I'm not ready to lie down and just accept death. I'm greedy; I want to see my grandchildren should DS and DD and their respective life-partners choose to grace us with such.







And going through the day wheezing just plain sucks.

I do have a problem with the advertising to the public thing though. People see the meds as an easy 100% fix, which most are not. The expectations of docs and everything else are raised as the reality of risk that is just part of life is ignored. Thus when things don't go 100% as planned, the lawsuits follow, even though nothing wrong was done. sh-you know what-t happens, even with good care and meds.

OTOH, how many couples were suffering in silence about impotence? I see the conversation about many medical conditions opening up as being a goodthing for the most part.


----------



## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:

these corps are much younger than people who lived simpler, healthier lives than we do. at the risk of overglorifying the ancestry, i don't think that most of them would be into the glaxosmithkline scene either.
On the contrary, our ancestors did what they could to treat illness and injury. Sometimes there wasn't much they could do, and death was more common at younger ages, and accepted as a simple fact-of-life, but they most certainly did what they could.

Most meds even now have plant origins. That herbal knowledge didn't spring forth from the last generations. Even now natives in the Amazon are leading Botanists and other scientists to plants that they use for cures and treatments.

I don't understand what this part of your post "these corps are much younger than people who lived simpler, healthier lives than we do." means though. Some of those corporations are approaching 100 if I'm remembering correctly. I think Aspirin is about 100 years old? Bayer was the first company producing it. It originated with a derivative of Willow Bark, which our ancestors were using.


----------

