# My Kids Were Poisoned Today - Who to Write To?



## Metasequoia

Dd1 (8) & Dd2 (5) had their teeth cleaned while Ds (2) had his cleaned. After Ds had his teeth scraped & polished, the hygienist stuck a toothbrush with gel on it in his mouth & sucked it out with "Mr. Thirsty." Half way through it occurred to me that it was fluoride.

As soon as we walked out of the building, Dd1 said, "Mommy, that stuff they put on my teeth made my belly feel yucky & gave me a headache." Then we got in the car & Dd2 started complaining that she felt yucky. Less than 5 minutes later, Ds was vomiting all over himself. The girls continued to complain & Dd2 threw up all over herself & her car seat. Dd1 made it home, but barely, vomiting in the front yard.

I called their dentist's office & asked what it was that they used that would cause all three of my children to vomit & they said that "fluoride sometimes causes kids to feel sick to their stomachs."










I am BEYOND FURIOUS!!! Why, in their minds, is this a reasonable reaction???!!

I had to take Dd2's seat out of the car, remove the straps & cover, wash them, scrub the seat of the car - Dd2 MISSED her dance class which wouldn't normally have been that big of a deal except that it was parent observation day & she was supposed to try on her costume for the recital. Dd1 almost missed her orthodontist appt that was scheduled as a series of 6 appts months ago to get her top expander put in, but she felt well enough by then to go. I asked her orthodontist about the kids & before I could even finish what I was saying, he was nodding saying "fluoride" after I recounted each child's vomiting experience.

*%[email protected] man, I am SO steaming mad, I'm not letting this one go. I am SO fed up with the AMA/ADA telling us that "fluoride is good for you!" It's $#@%ing poison & my childrens' bodies *knew* that it was poison & got rid of it.

Worst of all, I'm ticked at myself for allowing something like this - I knew better. I am well aware of the toxicity of fluoride, I don't give the drops when they're babies, I don't buy *any* of us fluoride tooth paste, even our tap water is fluoride-free, yet I allow the dentist to shove it into their mouths. The only reason I've ever allowed the fluoride treatments at the dentist is because they're supposed to be strictly topical & I do believe that fluorde can have a beneficial *topical* use. I VERY firmly believe that systemically, fluoride is highly, highly toxic & today just confirmed that before my very eyes.

As soon as they vomited, they all felt better, this was clearly a case of poisoning, no way was it any kind of illness. They went in rambunctious & healthy and left toxic & miserable.

I think I'll write some letters, but I'm not sure how high to go. I'll definitely write to the head of the practice - but this isn't just a problem with this specific practice, it's standard protocol for just about every dental office in the nation.

What should I do? Who should I write to? I want to spread the word - I just can't believe that the dentist & orthodontist admitted that this is a common occurrance,wth?


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## pampered_mom

I wish I had a more wide spread type suggestion, but I'd most certainly write a letter to the dentist's office letting them know my concern as well as telling them that we wouldn't be back.

http://www.fluoridealert.org/action.htm has some suggestions on how to take action.


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## zinemama

What a horrid experience! I feel for you - especially on the car mess...

That said, I don't think this is a common reaction and I'd avoid using the phrase "poisoned" in the letter you write. To me, that implies deliberate harm, which I don't think it's fair to accuse the dentist of doing.

I would focus more on the fact that the practice should inform parents of the possible reaction to topical fluoride treatments, and on the (it sounds to me) less than sympathetic reaction on the part of the staff when told about it. Sounds like they kind of brushed off what happened (?)

I agree that in your shoes I would also feel most upset at myself for allowing the fluoride in the first place.


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## UUMom

Where I live you have to give permission for flouride treatments.


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## frontierpsych

Ugh, I'm sorry that happened. When will they get that flouride is not meant for human consumption?!


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## eirual

If that's your first time with the dentist, I don't think it would be worth 'leaving' them for (i.e. "I won't be back"). They were just doing their job. No offense, but it should be the job of the parent to know what's involved with different procedures and to make sure those reflect your wishes. (maybe it's their job to be sure that what they're giving people won't harm them, but if that's considered part of a routine cleaning, it's not like the dental hygenist that likely administered it really had any say in the matter, other than maybe to ask your consent).

Maybe you were sort-of-okay with it being applied topically and let it slide in the moment? I would just recomend asking the dentist to not give your children flouride treatments until they are old enough to not swallow it. Let them know it ticked you off and caused the reaction it did in your children, but I wouldn't entirely flip out on them.


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## maxwill129

That just happened to me at our dentist. Both my children were given a flouride treatment without my consent. I only found out about it because we have to pay 100% of the bill and I was looking over the charges.

My friend just took her DD to the dentist yesterday for a cleaning and specified cleaning only, do not do anything to her teeth without my consent. They put sealant on all four of her permanant teeth without her knowledge. Her DD is old enough to tell her that they did it, she questioned the dentist, and he said, yes they did that.

The thing that gets me is, a doctor, mechanic, repairman can NOT do a service without your consent. So why can a dentist?


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## maxwill129

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eirual* 
No offense, but it should be the job of the parent to know what's involved with different procedures and to make sure those reflect your wishes. (maybe it's their job to be sure that what they're giving people won't harm them, but if that's considered part of a routine cleaning, it's not like the dental hygenist that likely administered it really had any say in the matter, other than maybe to ask your consent).

Maybe you were sort-of-okay with it being applied topically and let it slide in the moment? I would just recomend asking the dentist to not give your children flouride treatments until they are old enough to not swallow it. Let them know it ticked you off and caused the reaction it did in your children, but I wouldn't entirely flip out on them.

Just read this. What are you thinking?! It should NEVER be okay for a dentist to do anything to a child, a MINOR, without telling the parents what they are doing!!! This is NOT the OP's fault. Absolutely not. This statement ticks me off. You are implying that it is her fault and has no reason to flip out on them. Read my above post. NO DOCTOR, MECHANIC, REPAIRMAN CAN PERFORM A SERVICE WITHOUT YOUR CONSENT, SO WHY CAN A DENTIST?


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## paquerette

But if it's considered part of the standard treatment, and she consented to standard treatment, then she DID consent.


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## Ruthla

I don't think you need to do any kind of major activism- most kids don't have this kind of reaction to floride. I know that I personally limit my kids' floride consumption but I don't have a problem with twice-yearly topical floride treatments at the dentist's office.

IMO, you have kids that are sensitive to the topical floride treatment, and they personally shouldn't have it again. It should be put into their dental charts that they are allergic to floride and should not have topical floride treatments ever again. This doesn't mean that nobody should ever have topical floride treatment- just that your children shouldn't.


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## AllyRae

How did they get sick to their stomach from topical flouride?! Surely your 8 year old wasn't swallowing was she? If she swallowed the flouride, it's not exactly the doctor's fault...he was doing his job--if you don't want flouride treatments, it's best to avoid a dentist that uses them. Now, if the dentist told your child to swallow, that's a different cup of tea...that doesn't sound right at all.

I don't think there's much you can do--the standard of practice is to administer flouride treatments (and we do allow our children to be treated with topical flouride at the dentist--I'd actually be a little upset if dentists weren't allowed to do it since I think the twice yearly flouride treatments are just fine for my son...we don't do flouride water or drops, and so twice a year isn't bad *for him*).

The only thing you can really do is have a big allergy warning on your child's charts saying that they are allergic to flouride and should not be administered it.

ETA: I'm surprised they used it on your 2 year old though...I thought that you weren't supposed to use flouride until 3, or they were old enough to spit the toothpaste out?


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## Turquesa

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette* 
But if it's considered part of the standard treatment, and she consented to standard treatment, then she DID consent.

nak
true but . . . .it sounds like she didn't get INFORMED consent, just info AFTER the fact: "oh, by the way, your kids may puke.''

i would think that as licensed health care pro's, they would have a legal and ethical obligation to informed consent.

eta to the op: if you're in the US, try contacting your state's board of occupational licenses and report the incident there.


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## momsgotmilk4two

It sounds like the OP has been consenting to flouride treatments for years and this is the first time this has ever happened. I'm not sure what you mean by consenting to "topical" flouride treatments and this being something different. The flouride treatments given at the dentists office *are* topical treatments. I remember when I was young, I threw up after a flouride treatment once. I didn't swallow. It was a flouride rinse that I had to swish in my mouth and I did so, then spit it all out, then threw up an hour or so later, after having a stomach ache since leaving the dentist office. My dentist gives treatments the same way yours does- puts some foam on a toothbrush and applies it to their teeth with it.

At our dentists office, there are papers you sign before the checkup. I would imagine that some possible side effects of various things are listed there but I haven't read them cover to cover.


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## UUMom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette* 
But if it's considered part of the standard treatment, and she consented to standard treatment, then she DID consent.

Our dental office makes you sign a consent form for all procedures- just as you must sign a consent form for any vax. My children have never had any treatments I didn't sign off on.

I think it's very important that consent be in writing. Standard care should not be verbal or assumed.


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## paquerette

Okay. I've never signed a medical/dental form because I've never consented to anything before.







I assumed it was like the childbirth hospital forms; there might be a special form for something unusual, say a c-section, but there is one blanket form for everything considered standard, IV, monitoring, etc.


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## UUMom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette* 
Okay. I've never signed a medical/dental form because I've never consented to anything before.







I assumed it was like the childbirth hospital forms; there might be a special form for something unusual, say a c-section, but there is one blanket form for everything considered standard, IV, monitoring, etc.

I've been signing things since the day I became a mother. Even after my frist child's homebirth, I had to sign state forms for my midwife about not getting the Vit K shot, not getting antibiotic ointment in the eyes, permission to drawn blood for the PKU and on and on.


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## latinmom

It's very easy to have this kind of reaction. Some kids can't help but swallow a little. I refuse it for my kids and myself-I have exactly this reacion, and I don't swallow any that I know of.


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## Metasequoia

We never have to sign anything, except before each child's first appointment. I think it is considered "standard care."

I had a theory, since they have been having topical fluoride treatments for years there (at least Dd1 has) - I've really, really cleaned up their diets in the past year or so - we used to have decent diets but have since gone sugar-free & mostly label-free. A couple of friends of mine suggested the same thing, that maybe their bodies are so cleaned out that any amount of toxicity causes a strong reaction.







It's just odd that they've never had that reaction. My 8 & 5 year olds knw not to swallow & "Mr. Thirsty" was tucked under the fluoride tray "just in case" so they shouldn't have swallowed any amount.

I called a local holistic (mercury-free, fluoride-free) dentist & after a brief recounting of the fluoride story, I have a phone consult this coming Tuesday & then I'll decide if we should switch to him or stay where we are.

I also mentioned it to my chiro who just looked at me & said, "It _is_ poison!" and proceeded to Xerox an article for me. It was from the most recent issue of Pathways, a holistic subscription that I receive from our chiro who does cranial-sacral work for us. I came home & read the article & it has some decent info.

I'd like to bring it up at the dentist's office so that they consider warning parents of the possible effects.

I know it's my fault for allowing it since I _do_ know the cons of fluoride, but it's the only form of supplemental fluoride they receive & it's supposed to be purely topical. My poor little kiddos, at least my Dds will remember the experience & remind the hygienists that they do NOt want fluoride.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maxwill129*
My friend just took her DD to the dentist yesterday for a cleaning and specified cleaning only, do not do anything to her teeth without my consent. They put sealant on all four of her permanant teeth without her knowledge. Her DD is old enough to tell her that they did it, she questioned the dentist, and he said, yes they did that.

I'd be fuming! Sealants contain bisphenol-A, formaldehyde AND fluoride!


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## momofmine

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama* 
What a horrid experience! I feel for you - especially on the car mess...

That said, I don't think this is a common reaction and I'd avoid using the phrase "poisoned" in the letter you write. To me, that implies deliberate harm, which I don't think it's fair to accuse the dentist of doing.

I would focus more on the fact that the practice should inform parents of the possible reaction to topical fluoride treatments, and on the (it sounds to me) less than sympathetic reaction on the part of the staff when told about it. Sounds like they kind of brushed off what happened (?)

I agree that in your shoes I would also feel most upset at myself for allowing the fluoride in the first place.

This is a really good perspective. You know you get more flies with honey than vinegar. It will probably have a lot more impact if you can address it in a way that emphasizes, hey, if this is even a possibility (no matter how rare/common), then parents have a right to be informed ahead of time. I know we/they cannot be expected to know everything, but if this is something that they KNEW can be a side effect (and clearly they did), then they should be telling people.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
Where I live you have to give permission for flouride treatments.

This is awesome!

At our pediatric dentist, you have to fill out a little form every time you go, asking if there have been any changes in your child's health, if you have any concerns today, etc, and I always write NO FLOURIDE PLEASE in large letters.

I'm sure the paste they use to brush their teeth has flouride in it, though. But I always refuse those flouride treatments because that just sounds nuts to me. I always say, "Please just clean the teeth and and do a visual inspection for cavities." They say, "Can we take pictures?" (Their watered down version of asking if they can take an x-ray.) I just keep repeating myself, "Please just clean the teeth, thank you."

Don't beat yourself up OP, it sounds like their little bodies took care of it in just the right way, by expelling it! So be glad for that! You could also write a letter to the Holistic Dental Association, and the American Dental Association, in the same frame that the OP suggested above. Good luck! Just be vigilant next time!

Oh, one more thing, I ALWAYS go in with my child for the WHOLE time, even if they say he's fine to go in alone. I know of another pediatric dentist in town that does not allow the parents to go in. At all. Are you kidding me???? I would never consent to that! How do you know what they are doing? Especially with a 3 or 4 yr old! I can't believe that dentist actually has patients!

I also schedule my kids' dental appts separately. Yes, it is more hassle and more trips to the dentist, but worth it IMO to insure that I can stay with the child the whole time and make sure they are not doing something I have not consented to. When you do more than one child at one time, they have them all at different stages in the visit, with different hygienists, etc., and so you can't stay with each one for the whole visit.

Hope they are feeling better and you are too!


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## trinity6232000

Before my dd's first appointment at the dentist I asked about fluoride, and if it was used with the very young. I then asked that she write very large some where on dd's chart that I did not approve of any use of fluoride on my dd. I assumed it was standard treatment, and wanted them to understand that I would not approve of it's use, and wouldn't pay for it.

They looked (and still 6 years later) look at me crazy sometimes when they realize they won't be giving dd a fluoride treatment.

I'm sorry your dc had such a bad experience.


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## lucyem

We always turn down the fluoride treatment but the price is never less for a cleaning. I might have to ask about that one next time. I never thought about it before.

As for the original poster I agree with what someone else said. Write the dentist and explain what happened. Ask that no fluoride be used with any of your children again because it is obvious they have a sensitivity to it. Make sure it is on their charts. Do not mentioned poisoned in your letter, I think that would make the dentist mad and not take your letter seriously. I would also make sure in the future to notify the hygienist(sp?) before any cleanings that no fluoride is to be used.


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## bjorker

My brother used to always throw up after getting the fluoride cleaning. It was also standard practise to do the fluoride cleaning whenever we went to the dentist. Honestly, nothing that has been said here really surprises me. That's not to say that it's right. Whenever I get my butt back into the dentist, I will be making sure they know that I do not want any fluoride. Same goes for dd. I find the holistic dentist idea intriguing.

Do you know about your city's water? Many cities add fluoride right into their supply. Some around my area do, and apparently some don't. There's an untreated water well very near me, so I just go get my water from there. That way I know exactly what I'm getting.


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## Ifluffedthree

I don't know where to direct you.
I am sorry your children were treated without your consent.

Here in Pittsburgh, my children attend a charter school where they will provide dental exams and treatments.

The teachers were surprised when I sent in my very specific written directions to NOT treat my children and a detailed list of links to public news media as to why this toxin is not permitted to be administered to my sons.

I think I was the first parent there to open the Principal and teacher's eyes.


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## maciascl

Wow! I am really sorry you (& you kids) had to go through that. I am also really shocked by the responses you are getting.







Whatever happened to informed consent??? I wish I had more suggestions as to who to complain to.


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## selena_ski

I stopped getting flouride treatments as soon as i was able to tell the dentist no. I always get sick. My brother and other members of my blended family never got sick. I think that some people are more sensitive to it. But i will not be giving it to my daughter.


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## ilikethedesert

I'm sorry you all had such a bad experience! I, too used to get sick as a kid and once i was able to tell my Mom, she stopped having them give me flouride- although they did give me some take home flouride that I'm sure I used for a while.

My kids' dentist doesn't even batt and eye when I say no. I will always be there when my kids get their teeth cleaned and schedule their appointments one after the other. Takes a little longer, but each appointment is only about ten minutes anyway!


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## hipmummy

I think each case is dif. My mom only had two of us treated. I had one carry by three and five by five. ONce I started to get treatments the caries stopped. The year I stopped flouride: I got two cavities. Braces made it even worse. My brother was the same. My other brother and sister maybe got one treatment and that was it. Since they were not cavity prone they did not get them. This is the same aproach I will take with ds.


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## senmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Metasequoia* 
Dd1 (8) & Dd2 (5) had their teeth cleaned while Ds (2) had his cleaned. After Ds had his teeth scraped & polished, the hygienist stuck a toothbrush with gel on it in his mouth & sucked it out with "Mr. Thirsty." Half way through it occurred to me that it was fluoride.

As soon as we walked out of the building, Dd1 said, "Mommy, that stuff they put on my teeth made my belly feel yucky & gave me a headache." Then we got in the car & Dd2 started complaining that she felt yucky. Less than 5 minutes later, Ds was vomiting all over himself. The girls continued to complain & Dd2 threw up all over herself & her car seat. Dd1 made it home, but barely, vomiting in the front yard.

I called their dentist's office & asked what it was that they used that would cause all three of my children to vomit & they said that "fluoride sometimes causes kids to feel sick to their stomachs."










I am BEYOND FURIOUS!!! Why, in their minds, is this a reasonable reaction???!!

I had to take Dd2's seat out of the car, remove the straps & cover, wash them, scrub the seat of the car - Dd2 MISSED her dance class which wouldn't normally have been that big of a deal except that it was parent observation day & she was supposed to try on her costume for the recital. Dd1 almost missed her orthodontist appt that was scheduled as a series of 6 appts months ago to get her top expander put in, but she felt well enough by then to go. I asked her orthodontist about the kids & before I could even finish what I was saying, he was nodding saying "fluoride" after I recounted each child's vomiting experience.

*%[email protected] man, I am SO steaming mad, I'm not letting this one go. I am SO fed up with the AMA/ADA telling us that "fluoride is good for you!" It's $#@%ing poison & my childrens' bodies *knew* that it was poison & got rid of it.

Worst of all, I'm ticked at myself for allowing something like this - I knew better. I am well aware of the toxicity of fluoride, I don't give the drops when they're babies, I don't buy *any* of us fluoride tooth paste, even our tap water is fluoride-free, yet I allow the dentist to shove it into their mouths. The only reason I've ever allowed the fluoride treatments at the dentist is because they're supposed to be strictly topical & I do believe that fluorde can have a beneficial *topical* use. I VERY firmly believe that systemically, fluoride is highly, highly toxic & today just confirmed that before my very eyes.

As soon as they vomited, they all felt better, this was clearly a case of poisoning, no way was it any kind of illness. They went in rambunctious & healthy and left toxic & miserable.

I think I'll write some letters, but I'm not sure how high to go. I'll definitely write to the head of the practice - but this isn't just a problem with this specific practice, it's standard protocol for just about every dental office in the nation.

What should I do? Who should I write to? I want to spread the word - I just can't believe that the dentist & orthodontist admitted that this is a common occurrance,wth?


How about just calling the dentist, explain what happened and KINDLY ask them not to use fluoride on your children? You should have asked that ahead of time, but hindsight is 20/20.


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## Metasequoia

Quote:


Originally Posted by *senmom* 
How about just calling the dentist, explain what happened and KINDLY ask them not to use fluoride on your children? You should have asked that ahead of time, but hindsight is 20/20.

Ds had his cavity filled on Thursday & I _kindly_ asked that they write "no fluoride" on their charts.


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## counterGOPI

omg!! thats horrible! I am so sorry you went through that


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## CalaRei

Eugh. I always threw up because of fluoride treatments. I think once I even threw up ON him, through those gummy trays. I would just sit there and cry and cry until the time was up, and then frantically wash out my mouth repeatedly.

I was so so glad when I turned 16 and didn't have to do it anymore.


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## Mama2NandD

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllyRae* 
ETA: I'm surprised they used it on your 2 year old though...I thought that you weren't supposed to use flouride until 3, or they were old enough to spit the toothpaste out?

My son will be five next month, and he still swallows the toothpaste. Fortunately, I buy it at the health food store so it doesn't contain any flouride. That said, most flouride toothpaste that is made for kids is flavored. I realize that the logic behind flavored toothpaste is that it's supposed to make them brush longer. But, if they like the taste, why would they spit it out? And then there's the marketing aspect. My son kept asking me to buy the Cars toothpaste (which contains flouride of course). Thankfully, he settled for a Cars toothbrush.


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## MadameXCupcake

Bit OT
But now I know why I got sick after going to the dentist all those years!


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## cinnamonamon

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MadameXCupcake* 
Bit OT
But now I know why I got sick after going to the dentist all those years!









And now I wonder if that's why I have such an aversion to my (flouride filled) tap water... it always turns my tummy a little.

I know this is a little OT, but does anyone know how to remove/filter it out of water? My Brita thingie is very pointed when it says that it doesn't remove flouride. Ugh.


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## Sri Radha

I am a hygienist. I only had one kid throw up from a Fluoride treatment because he swallowed when I had told him not to. Other than that, I never had a kid throw up.

You can expect certain things to happen at a cleaning appointment and unless you say no before the child is seen, the office will run it's usual protocol. YOU MUST SAY NO.

The prophy paste (what they polish your teeth with) also has fluoride. White fillings also contain fluoride.

I would never seal a child's teeth without first getting consent as that is above and beyond a normal routine.

This won't be popular, but I believe if you are very averse to something that is routine it is your duty as a parent to let the dental/medical professionals know ahead of time. Being anti-fluoride may be popular on this forum but I only have had a handful of people that didn't want it during my whole career.


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## janellesmommy

The OP's second post in this thread shows she knows of a local holistic non-fluoride dentist, but for those of you who don't know how to find one, here is a link:
http://www.iaomt.org/patients/search.aspx

The organization's main concern is mercury, but they are also against fluoride. The few dentists I have contacted through that link also were aware of bisphenol-A and used filling material that did not contain it or fluoride.

For those of you who are anti-fluoride, it's much better to go with an IAOMT dentist than to just request no-fluoride at a regular dentist. Regular dentists use fluoride in the paste used for cleanings and my guess is that most of them don't even have a non-fluoride paste available.


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## janellesmommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cinnamonamon* 
I know this is a little OT, but does anyone know how to remove/filter it out of water? My Brita thingie is very pointed when it says that it doesn't remove flouride. Ugh.

The only way I know of is to get a reverse osmosis system. I think they run 2-4 thousand dollars and 500 per year for replacement filters. My family is so lucky that our area does not fluoridate the water.


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## StacyL

I'm a little confused by all of the responses to the OP by those who say they are aware of fluoride's toxicity, yet they 'allow' topical treatments.








:

I've read that drinking distilled water is the only way to make sure there's no fluoride in your drinking water, other than an expensive filter system.


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## UUMom

StacyL said:


> I'm a little confused by all of the responses to the OP by those who say they are aware of fluoride's toxicity, yet they 'allow' topical treatments.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Where?


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## momofmine

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StacyL* 

I've read that drinking distilled water is the only way to make sure there's no fluoride in your drinking water, other than an expensive filter system.

I'm not sure about this, but I think I remember reading that drinking distilled water is not good for you long-term because the distilling process takes out all the minerals too. So, unless you are supplementing with certain minerals, it can deplete your body of needed minerals over time. And I don't know how you would know what you need to take, so it seems like a bad idea. We just bought an Aquasana filter, and although it doesn't filter out all the flouride, it is supposed to at least filter out most of what is added to our city water.


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## StacyL

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
Where?

Here:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
I know that I personally limit my kids' floride consumption but I don't have a problem with twice-yearly topical floride treatments at the dentist's office.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllyRae* 
I don't think there's much you can do--the standard of practice is to administer flouride treatments (and we do allow our children to be treated with topical flouride at the dentist--I'd actually be a little upset if dentists weren't allowed to do it since I think the twice yearly flouride treatments are just fine for my son...we don't do flouride water or drops, and so twice a year isn't bad *for him*).


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## cinnamonamon

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StacyL* 
I'm a little confused by all of the responses to the OP by those who say they are aware of fluoride's toxicity, yet they 'allow' topical treatments.








:

I think the biggest thing is that ingesting fluoride is quite toxic & undeniably bad for you, many mainstream sources will tell you that topical application is perfectly safe & absolutely beneficial. While I won't be allowing fluoride treatments for my children anytime soon, I may allow a topical treatment when they are older if their teeth seem to need it & any/all other options have been exhausted (and after I've done more research into it, of course).

Thanks for the other info about fluoride free water -- I'm also going to look into the filtering system Quixtar/Amway sells, as my Mom was claiming it was a good choice...


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## momofmine

I grew up having regular flouride treatments at the dentist, and probably drinking flouridated water, because we lived in a mid-sized city, so I'm assuming it was. I never had a cavity in my life.

UNTIL...recently. My husband was giving me a hard time because I am anti-flouride now (for about 10 years), and don't use flouride toothpaste or drink flouridated water. At first I thought maybe he was right, like maybe the flouride had done some good, and since I stopped, maybe that was why I was getting cavities several years later.

However, I see a holistic dentist, and he said that's actually quite common for people who grew up on flouride. I don't remember his exact explanation, but I think it was something like the flouride makes the enamel very hard and protective, so it does work initially to prevent the cavities, but what actually happens is that over time, tiny cracks occur on the surface, and cavities begin inside, so often they aren't even noticed for a while.

So to me, it sounds like flouride is another one of those allopathic treatments that actually seems to work much of the time, yet, in the long-term, it is not the answer.

Better to be eating the way our bodies are meant to eat. Do animals get cavities?? They don't get flouride treatments. (For that matter, do animals in the wild get sick the way we do, with strep throats and bacteria and viruses and the like?)


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## zoeyzoo

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cinnamonamon* 
And now I wonder if that's why I have such an aversion to my (flouride filled) tap water... it always turns my tummy a little.

I know this is a little OT, but does anyone know how to remove/filter it out of water? My Brita thingie is very pointed when it says that it doesn't remove flouride. Ugh.

Costco has a reverse ossmosis system for something like $200. Any reverse osmosis water will get rid of floride.


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## momofmine

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ZoeyZoo* 
Costco has a reverse ossmosis system for something like $200. Any reverse osmosis water will get rid of floride.

Yes, but I think that reverse osmosis also removes important minerals, so you need to do something to replace the minerals. We decided on an Aquasana for that reason.


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## cadydid

Quote:

Do animals get cavities?? They don't get flouride treatments.

Yes, animals get cavities. Dogs and cats do, so do zoo animals.
And during a routine dental prophy, pets may be getting flouride treatments. Depends on the vet.


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## StacyL

Here's an interesting exceprt on reverse osmosis and distillation of water:

http://www.historyofwaterfilters.com...tillation.html

Quote:

Reverse osmosis will generally remove any molecular compounds smaller in size than water molecules. Such compounds include salt, manganese, iron, fluoride, lead, and calcium (Binnie et al, 2002). Reverse osmosis is extremely efficient at stripping minerals from water, ...it does not provide the healthiest drinking water. Reverse osmosis will remove several mineral and chemical materials from water, including salt, fluoride, lead, manganese, iron, and calcium. Reverse osmosis, because it removes minerals according to physical size, is non-selective in its removal of dangerous and beneficial minerals.

Quote:

Distillation, through its water evaporation process, will remove any chemicals or organic materials with higher boiling points than water. Such chemicals and organic materials with higher boiling points include bacteria, minerals, trace amounts of metals, many volatile organic chemicals (VOCs), and nitrate (Binnie et al, 2002). ...The distillation process is not selective in its removal of minerals, and it strips water of both dangerous and valuable mineral compounds.

A tooth is a living organ, such as your skin, so I don't see how applying a toxic, unstable chemical to it would be of any benefit. I thought the whole basis for the 'perceived benefit' of fluoridation was false in the first place from that military study?


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## momofmine

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cadydid* 
Yes, animals get cavities. Dogs and cats do, so do zoo animals.
And during a routine dental prophy, pets may be getting flouride treatments. Depends on the vet.

But dogs and cats that are pets, and zoo animals too, usually eat an artificial or simulated diet to meet their nutritional needs. Which is what you could say most people eat. They get the nutrients they need, but not necessarily in the form their bodies are supposed to be getting them in.

I was wondering if animals, in the wild, who eat as their instincts are telling them to eat, or as their pack or mother teaches them to eat, get cavities?


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## Breeder

I still remember vomiting from flouride treatments when I was a kid. Poor kiddos.


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## cadydid

This is getting so off topic, but on the animal thing...how are you going to know if a wild animal has cavities? And even if you found and examined skulls, you wouldn't know much/anything about the age of the animal, the availability of an appropriate diet, underlying medical conditions, why the animal died, etc. All of that would be important if you're trying to make a determination that wild animals are healthier.


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## JaneS

The main issue I have with fluoride is not only problems with enamel, but it is a neurotoxin.

I've been looking at Berkefeld water purifiers which have an extra filter for fluoride and are pretty affordable as advanced filters go. They do not remove minerals:
http://www.pleasanthillgrain.com/ber..._purifier.aspx

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cadydid* 
This is getting so off topic, but on the animal thing...how are you going to know if a wild animal has cavities? And even if you found and examined skulls, you wouldn't know much/anything about the age of the animal, the availability of an appropriate diet, underlying medical conditions, why the animal died, etc. All of that would be important if you're trying to make a determination that wild animals are healthier.

Well human skulls before the advent of processed food have been examined and found to be cavity free (and perfectly straight teeth, crooked/crowded teeth is also a nutritional deficiency).

Weston Price examined living people and their diets who were cavity free. See WAPF link in my sig.

And to Momofmine's previous point about bacteria and viruses, animals make their own vitamin C and thus do not get sick like we do. See Irwin Stone's e-book on vitamin C very enlightening, apparently humans suffered a genetic quirk so that we do not manufacture vitamin C ourselves. However, since I seem to learn everyday yet another "genetic" or "epigenetic" trait is directly traceable to nutrition, I also wonder how we have mistreated ourselves to cause this to happen.


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## momofmine

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
And to Momofmine's previous point about bacteria and viruses, animals make their own vitamin C and thus do not get sick like we do. See Irwin Stone's e-book on vitamin C very enlightening, apparently humans suffered a genetic quirk so that we do not manufacture vitamin C ourselves. However, since I seem to learn everyday yet another "genetic" or "epigenetic" trait is directly traceable to nutrition, I also wonder how we have mistreated ourselves to cause this to happen.

I saw an ad in National Geographic recently. It was about a huge genome project, by IBM and Nat'l Geographic, where they are analyzing DNA from over 200,00 volunteers, the ad said to "map how humankind has populated the globe and uncover the genetic roots we all share." It gave a website of ibm.com/dna

I thought this was interesting, because I have often wondered if things like vaccines and antibiotics have actually changed our DNA. It seems like that is certainly possible. Plenty of things can cause mutations. But so in this project, will things like that be taken into account? It seems highly unlikely that will be very many people among those 200,000 who have never had vax or abx, or whose ancestors didn't either.


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## Metasequoia

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sri Radha* 
White fillings also contain fluoride.

I think my (three!) children all vomited because their diets don't consist of processed crap, JMHO.

Not all composite material contains fluoride. Some dentists use fluoridated, some don't, you only know if you ask & most of the time, neither the dentist nor the hygienist knows until they're asked to look.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
Better to be eating the way our bodies are meant to eat. Do animals get cavities?? They don't get flouride treatments. (For that matter, do animals in the wild get sick the way we do, with strep throats and bacteria and viruses and the like?)


Quote:


Originally Posted by *cadydid* 
Yes, animals get cavities. Dogs and cats do, so do zoo animals.
And during a routine dental prophy, pets may be getting flouride treatments. Depends on the vet.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
But dogs and cats that are pets, and zoo animals too, usually eat an artificial or simulated diet to meet their nutritional needs. Which is what you could say most people eat. They get the nutrients they need, but not necessarily in the form their bodies are supposed to be getting them in.

I was wondering if animals, in the wild, who eat as their instincts are telling them to eat, or as their pack or mother teaches them to eat, get cavities?

I did a lot of research on this when Dd2 had marks on her teeth as an infant (she's 5.5, they've never turned into decay) & our dentist insisted that breastfeeding, especially night-nursing causes the same decay as bottle feeding.

Breast milk alone does NOT cause dental caries, but formula alone can. However, breastmilk mixed with any amount of sugar caused more decay than formula mixed with sugar.
This sounds OT, but in my research, I found that animals eating their wild, intended diet did not develop caries, it's almost exclusively only when they eat processed (human's) food or pet food.

I agree with JaneS, it all comes down to our diets.


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## loveyourohana

I am pretty possitive a dentist has to ask permission for flouride treatments, it isn't just a routine without consent! My mom has to mention what she is doing as she is doing it to each parent, the front desk has always asked at the time of signing in "will this cleaning include flouride?". And never ever ever should a child receive any dental work beyond cleaning without your consent, like sealants! If so, inform your insurance company, and let the dentist know personally you won't be billed for work you did not consent too!


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## JaneS

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
I saw an ad in National Geographic recently. It was about a huge genome project, by IBM and Nat'l Geographic, where they are analyzing DNA from over 200,00 volunteers, the ad said to "map how humankind has populated the globe and uncover the genetic roots we all share." It gave a website of ibm.com/dna

I thought this was interesting, because I have often wondered if things like vaccines and antibiotics have actually changed our DNA. It seems like that is certainly possible. Plenty of things can cause mutations. But so in this project, will things like that be taken into account? It seems highly unlikely that will be very many people among those 200,000 who have never had vax or abx, or whose ancestors didn't either.

I think it's likely, the NOVA program on epigenetics called "Ghost in Your Genes" (excerpts online at www.pbs.org) focused on how nutrition changes our DNA, even nutritional deficiencies or sufficiency several generations back. And that our DNA actually changes over time... identical twins by the end of the their lifetime have radically different DNA!

(pardon the OT!)


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## MeloMama08

I know this is SO not the point, but I received Fluoride treatments as a kid and I have never had a single cavity. I don't even take the greatest care of my teeth (I don't floss.) So, your dentist should've made sure you consented, but it's probably good for your kids in the long run....


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## applejuice

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eirual* 
They were just doing their job.

So poisoning children is their job?

I suggest you tell the dentist to make a note of this reaction in their charts. Do not let the dentist tell you that they will outgrow it and try to give them more fluoride later. Get a copy of their records if you go elsewhere.


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## Jamie19

I remember in elementary school being forced to use flouride IN CLASS at school WTFBBQ!?!? I'm only 22 and this was started in about 3rd grade, when I got home my mom flipped out and went to the school and raised H3LL at the school nurse, she was never asked about it, and turns out I had a severe reaction as a kid to it. I ended up throwing up afterwards which is probably what made me tell my mom to begin with honestly. But I remember thinking it was very odd, everyone being brought these little cups of pink stuff that burned. It went on my entire elementary years and I always had to argue with who ever that I wasn't allowed since I wasn't techincally "allergic" to it.

We've allowed the topical painted on flouride treatments twice with the girls. We don't drink tap water or use flouride toothpaste. Now I'm wondering about that....







:


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## momofmine

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MeloMama08* 
I know this is SO not the point, but I received Fluoride treatments as a kid and I have never had a single cavity. I don't even take the greatest care of my teeth (I don't floss.) So, your dentist should've made sure you consented, but it's probably good for your kids in the long run....

I wondered about this too, because I received regular flouride treatments as a kids too. And I had never had a cavity in my entire life. Until last year. I am now 36, and I had the first cavity of my entire life (never even had one in a baby tooth). My holistic dentist says it's actually quite common for our generation who have grown up on flouride. It makes the enamel very hard, but then it actually gets brittle, and tiny cracks allow cavities to begin inside long before you even know it. I had the first one fixed, but then I quickly had more. And so I am going to try to heal those.


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## JaneS

*Parents of Fluoride Poisoned Children*
http://poisonfluoride.com/pfpc/


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## Panserbjorne

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cadydid* 
Yes, animals get cavities. Dogs and cats do, so do zoo animals.
And during a routine dental prophy, pets may be getting flouride treatments. Depends on the vet.

I think that poster (at least in my mind) was referring to wild animals eating their natural diet, not pets that we feed just as badly as ourselves.


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## zoeyzoo

Thank you to the OP who posted this. I was getting nasaus all the time lately and couldn't figure out why until I looked at my toothpaste. I changed to a flouride free toothpaste and it's gone. Looks like I'm sensitive to it too even though I only use it topically.


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## lolo'smom

thanks for this thread! my ds is getting ready for his first dental appt and i'll be researching all of this info!!!

just something i found interesting (and appauling) when i was trying to find out if we had city water or not (we recently moved) and i came across this article...

http://www.eastonutilities.com/sub.php?navigation_id=77

we did live in an area before we moved that had city water but i NEVER knew this or was "informed" of this high concentration - i only came across this while i was looking for something completely unrelated!!!!







:


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