# Goodbye Francesca... how can I help her Mamma?



## Kanga (Nov 26, 2001)

I have turned to Mothering for so much in this first year of my babies life. I hope you can help me to help a friend of mine. I just learned that she just lost her baby girl in her sixth month of gestation. I want so much to do something to help her deal with this loss. I don't know what she had to go through when the baby was delivered. I don't know if she was allowed to hold or even see the baby. I'd like to send her something in memory of Francesca, but I wonder if this might make it worse for her. Is it evil to talk of a lost pregnancy as a lost child? In my heart I feel like that is what happened, but my DH thinks that by "making too much of it" we will only make it worse for them.

What is appropriate for me to do for her? We are very close although we now live on opposite sides of the country. I thought I would get that book that was suggested for her and maybe make a necklace with the baby's name on it for her to keep.


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## KimberMama (Mar 8, 2002)

I am so sorry for your friend!

At 6 months gestation it is not a lost pregnancy....it is a lost child. She would have to labor to deliver the baby. She most likely got to hold the baby, and the staff may even have taken a few photos for her.

On my pregnancy/birth list there is one mom who had a stillbirth at 21 weeks and she shared her story with us. Later, another mom lost her baby to a cord accident at full term. Believe me, these mothers grieve as much as any of us would if we lost a child.

If I were you I would try to find a support group for her. Be there for her, listen to her story, take care of her, love her.

My friend Allison says that her son was born still, but he was STILL BORN. People tend to pretend that it didn't happen, to ignore the loss and the pain. The expect the family to move on as if they hadn't already known and loved the child. Hopefully your friend will be well supported as she goes through the process of making funeral arrangements, etc. She is in a dark place, and one person who tries to understand can be a candle to help light her way.

Kimberly


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Kanga your post brought tears to my eyes. I think your first impulse is totally correct. Your friend is mourning and she needs you to reach out to her and support her and mourn with her. Pretending that nothing happened will not help her at all. You know your friend and your relationship with her better than we can hope to, so follow your heart, but definitely reach out to her with our comfort. Bless you both.


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## Kanga (Nov 26, 2001)

This board is full of so many great suggestions. I was sobbing in the card store when I was looking for a sympathy card for her. I found one that quoted "the Little Prince" and talked about our loved ones smiling on us from the stars. We sent it without adding too much, just that my dh and I are keeping them in our thoughts and hearts. I wanted to say that I was sorry for her loss, but again DH thought it was too strong. I'm so glad I came here. You all have not only helped me validate my own feelings of saddness, but perhaps even given me some tools to help my friend. I will stick with my gut that is telling me that my dear friend lost her precious baby girl. I think of how much love I felt for my ds when I was at 5-6 months. How connected we already were. They tried for so long to have this baby and to have her slip through her arms without being able to see her coo and smile is so tragic.

Tomorrow I'm going to get together a care package for her. Some tea and bath salts, a journal, some beads for that necklace...


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

I think that's a beautiful & sensitive idea - about the necklace that is & some things to care for her. She is lucky to have you as a friend. The tea is an awesome plan. Just before I lost the baby before Saffron, I had literally just ordered about a lb of prenatal herbal tea. It was a mix of raspberry leaf, nettle, oatstraw, alfalfa, rosehips & spearmint so I drunk it anyways & I really felt it helped me physically.

It kind of irks me that people expect us to just move on when we lose a baby. To me, my spirit babies were lost regardless of how pregnant I was ( One ectopic 7.5 weeks & one in utero at 16 weeks ). I personally think it is very telling that society ages our babies by when they were born ie when the men first saw them, not when they were conceived. To me, I loved & nutured my babies from conception so any loss whenever it happened was the loss of a child & a future.

What I also found helped me was to grow things while I was healing. I got a sick bonsai wisteria in a plant sale which I tended back to health. I grew some veges & herbs & so on. We planted a puriri tree which we buried our last baby that we lost under. Now every time I see a big strong puriri tree or the flowers off one on the floor I think of our babe. But it is a happy thought like he is always with me & I feel this remarkable warm presence that is very comforting. Having an altar with momentos & fresh flowers on also helped. Maybe you could put a pack of seeds of a significant type of plant in with the package since you live too far away to send plants ?

Most important of all, talk to her about it. It really upset me that so few people mentioned it to me & most just acted like nothing had happened. Mind you, of the people who did say something, it was quite strange who said what & how many older women I know who were still grieving silently for their lost babies, so I think the suppression of this type of grief is a massive problem in our society. Even our sweet little teenage receptionist at work at the time cried on me coz she had had an abortion & had not dealt with it properly.

One other idea for her care package. There are certain essential oils that are said to help with grief. Rose being one of them that comes to mind. I like frankincense as well as it is so ancient & primal & warming. You could make her some bath bombs or bath salts so she can have some nice, warm, healing relaxing baths.

A final idea. Sorry I am a bit fragmented today, my toddler is teething & has been sick. Some vitamin pills or essential fatty acids ( evening primrose oil ) or a decent natural iron supplement may be the go too since she's probably physically quite depleted by now which will have a direct bearing on her mental state. Sometimes after a loss like this, we are not really together enough to be able to face going out into the world for a while & doing the practical things like buying vitamins - let alone together enough to think even about it.


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## Ms. Mom (Nov 18, 2001)

I love the suggestions here. I have to agree, when Amanda was born still it was the most horrible time I ever experienced and so many people wanted to smile and pretend it didn't happen.

The comments that hurt me most were;

You can have more
be glad she didn't die after she was born
don't dwell on it
women loose babies all the time
there was probubly something wrong with her
it's God's will

The people who stand out back then are the ones who called me often and listenened. I had two friends who let me talk about her birth in detail. I became so proud that I could give birth to her when I had nothing else left to give.

I think the most important thing you can do is let her talk. Say the baby's name (not 'the baby'). I have several resourses I've posted here before. I'll go back and find them and post them here.

I wish you gentleness as you travele this path with your friend. You will grow as a person by reaching out to her.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

DH's often think one is going overboard...maybe women just morn differently....

Just be there for her...she will continue to need someone to talk to...but one never really gets over such a loss.


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## Kanga (Nov 26, 2001)

Thank you all so much for your helpful suggestions. I found some raspberry tea and some bath salts for her today. Oceanmamma, thank you so much for the wonderful idea of sending seeds. I was looking at vitamins too, but was unsure what would be best for her. I found a beautiful journal with rose pedals pressed into the pages. I'm going to write a few of the poems I've read here on cards and put them inside. My dh is recognizing the effect this is having on me and has been very supportive today. I'm going to try to talk to her tomorrow.

Any other suggestions for this care basket? I think I'll also get some dried fruit.

It means so much to me that you all have taken the time to share your ideas and thoughts with me. It's been a huge help coming here.


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## Kanga (Nov 26, 2001)

I also have to add that it has been helpful to hear that I should say the baby's name. I have been torn over whether or not this would cause her more pain.

I'm worried about what she has gone through. I just happened to call on the day she delivered the baby and only talked to her husband (also a very good friend). They way he phrased things is what makes me worried. He said that they found out a week before that there was not heartbeat and that on that day, "they moved the baby out". What does this mean? What a strange way to put it... I'm sure he heard it expressed that way from the doctors. Should I ask her if she was able to see and hold her baby? What if she didn't? Will this make her feel like she missed out on even more?

Thank you all again... I think I will compile a list of all the suggested items for the care basket so that others can use it in the future.


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## Ms. Mom (Nov 18, 2001)

Kanga, most hospitals today will help you hold the baby, take pictures and put together keepsakes (like foot and hand prints).

What may be a sensative issue is that the baby had died several days before delivery. There may have been some break down of the skin and this would be hard for a parent to talk about. This was the case with my daughter and that was very difficult.

I have pictures of her and we held her. I have her birth cap, birth/death certificate and strong memories of holding her and the nurse holding me while I weapt.

She gave birth to a VERY real child and named him. This name means a lot to her and it will be so healing to hear it.

Give her the opportunity to talk, she may have some things to say that are extreamly difficult to hear. Just listen.

A dear friend made a butterfly out of stained glass for me and had Amanda's name and birth date engraved in it. It's one of the most precious things I own! I get a christmans ornament of a faiery every year and have her name put on it. My children love putting them on the tree and talking about thier 'spirit sister'.

Another suggestion for your basket. A book on greif. I'll try to get some suggestions for you.


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## karen t. (Mar 2, 2002)

good for you in your concern for her loss! although there were those who didn't say anything to us when Mahlah died, i'll never forget those who did!! one of the most special things i have to remember her by is a small silver charm of an infant's head w/ her name on it!! i never take it off. the funny thing is, her name is mispelled!! and, as anal as i am about her name, it's so not a big deal to me! the evident concern and shared mourning of my friend to give me that little gift eased my fear of "will she be remembered only by me?" it was a small gesture that still means a lot to me today!!


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## Kanga (Nov 26, 2001)

Thank you all for helping me. The gift basket I sent included the following:
lined basket to use as a planter
packets of seeds
bath salts
raspberry tea
split pea and barley soup mixes
journal with rose pedal pressed paper
photo copy of the recent mothering articles on mourning pregnancy loss
twig from a pine tree

We're going to visit them in a week and I decided to wait until then to give her the bracelet. I wanted to have a chance to see and talk to her in person to get a sense of whether or not it was appropriate.


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

What a beautiful gift & what a kind & sensitive friend you are







Give your friend an extra hug from me when you see her.


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## Blessed Sunshine (May 9, 2002)

Kanga,

This is very close to my heart. My baby's heart stopped beating, we found out this week. I'm still carrying my angel as I can't bear the thought of a D&C. I'm hoping to deliver Morgan on my own as gently as possible, as it's meant to be.

Her baby is real, I'm happy she's giver her child a name. Let her talk to you. All you really say, is your sorry and you're in our thoughts and prayers. don't try to justify it, it doesn't make the pain go away.

Suggest to her she look into support groups. Share is abig on in the US, but there are others. Look into groups specific to still birth and pregnancy loss, as mixed ones, people just won't understand.

Some hospitals have a naming ceremony, for all familes who've lost their pregnancies, no matter what stage. this gives thema chance to to introduce their baby to the world, tell them their names. These names are entered into a book. As to a parent it was a loss, no moatter how developped or not.

If she hasn't done a funeral, let her know she can still have a memorial, takl to the church in her community. It can be big, or just her family, but a chance to say good bye. If they didn't bury their child, and left the baby with the hospital. It is likely the hospital has pictures of the baby, as well the hospital will have a hospital burial, and at some point during the year a memorial, where every still born name that was buried will be put on a commemorative plaque.

A suggestion that has been given to me, is include the baby in every family picture. I know this seems impossible, for some it'll be a specific colored rose, that a family member will hold in thos pictures, or a special teddy bear.

Another suggestion is make a baby book. What ever she has of baby, a picture and U/S, a positive pregnancy test. Journal the pregnancy from the moment she sound out she was pregnant, what she felt, what she did to prepare for her baby, comments made, right to the delivery of the baby, and all the emotions and anger that came with it. With time that'll calm down I'm told. but that jounal can be the babys' album. A way to remember her precious angel when she needs to.


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## XM (Apr 16, 2002)

.


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## anarcat (Jun 28, 2002)

Your intincts are really right on. i would have loved a gift basket like the one you assembled. You're a good friend. some friends of mine never said anything; and quite frankly I haven't really forgiven them. other friends travelled 6 hours to spend the weekend with us and come to the memorial service we had, and those are the people i still feel closest to. When you talk with her, i would try to follow her lead, you know? in terms of how she wants to talk about her daughter. But let her know you're there however she wants you to be. As for her hubby's odd language, he's probably having a pretty rough time, maybe trying to minimze things because he doesn't know how to cope or to grieve, not so uncommon especially among men.

And as time goes, you can just ask her; i always appreciated that, when people would ask me what i was comfortable with.

thanks for being so compassionate.


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## festivus1 (Jul 22, 2002)

You sound like a wonderful friend, Kanga! I miscarried at 5 weeks back in '96 and I would have loved to receive such a thoughtful gift at that time.

One of the very hardest things for me - and it can still bring up a little anger - was going back to work and nobody (except two people) saying ANYTHING!!!!! OK, still tears to my eyes as I remember. I knew they all "knew", but no one said a word about it. I felt as though I had walked in with an open wound, bleeding everywhere, but everyone acted like "everything was fine". That was about the most hurtful thing to me during that time. And, all because one of the girls there presumed that I would feel "better" if no one brought it up and parcelled that suggestion out to the others... It was ignorance and I know now, and really even knew then, that she was trying to do what she thought was best for me. She has since miscarried and I imagine she knows now (I don't say that in a snippy way - i would not wish it on anyone.)

So, bravo for you for caring so much!!!!


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## ILoveMothering (Aug 1, 2002)

Kanga,

You are an amazing friend. Below are the two most helpful pieces of writing I gave a close friend whose close friend lost a baby at 24 hours of age - they both said these things helped them very much.

The first one "You Can't Win with Me" was very helpful for her to hand out to everyone who came to the memorial service - and the second one "The Mention of Her Name" is self-explanatory (they handed this one out at the service too - the original version was "The Mention of His Name").

Two big DON'TS are saying something religious to a person who isn't (God needed an angel, etc.) and "forgetting" about her loss after the first few days/weeks (very painful as each "missed" day comes along - like the due date, holidays, etc. and most of the attention is right when it first occurs).

To all who responded - you are also amazing - I wept reading the words.

Kanga, please share your feelings too - you are also a "grieving" person and it hurts a lot to be close to someone with this profound a loss. Feelings of guilt that it didn't happen to you and sadness that you and she were going to have babies "the same age" can be overwhelming. I am so sorry.

~~~ILoveMothering

***You can't Win with me***
by Jane Warland

If you say to me "How are you doing?" with such sympathy and meaning in
your voice.
I reply "I'm fine" and brush you off, because to talk about my loss with
you today is just too painful.
If you see me and don't mention the loss that is consuming my thoughts,
I think you don't care enough, or are too scared to mention it for fear
that you might upset me.
You can't win with me.
If you say "I'm sorry your baby died," it is hard for me to reply to
that.
What do you expect me to say?
I want to say "I'm sorry too!" or "It's awful"
I want to scream "It's not fair"
But I won't because I don't want to upset myself today, not in front of
you.
So I reply "Thankyou"
That thanks means so much more than that.
It means thanks for caring, thanks for trying to help, thanks for
realising that I'm still in pain.
If you don't know what to say to me that's okay because I don't know
what to say to you either.
If you see me smile or laugh don't assume I must have forgotten my baby
for the moment,
I haven't, I can't, I never will.
Tell me that I look good today.
I will know what you mean.
I'm getting good at picking up unspoken cues from you.
If you see me and think I look upset or sad, you are probably right.
Today might be an anniversary day for me, or some event might have
triggered a wave of grief in me.
If you don't say anything I'll think you don't care about me, but if you
do say something, it might make me feel worse.
You could try asking if I want to talk , but don't be surprised if I say
no.
You can't win with me.
Don't give up on me, please don't give up.
I need your attempts however feeble, however trite you might feel they
are.
I need your thoughts.
I need your prayers.
I need your love.
I need your persistence.
I need all that but most of all I need to be treated normally, like it
used to be before all this happened.
But I know it's impossible.
That carefree, naive person is gone forever, and I am mourning that loss
too.
So you can't win with me.

---

Jane Warland ( copyright 1996 Pregnancy after Loss )
Pregnancy after Loss is Jane's second Book. She is an Australian midwife
and bereaved parent as well as mom to four living children.
Jane wrote "Pregnancy after Loss" when faced with a very anxious
subsequent pregnancy after her baby's stillbirth.
It includes that thoughts and experiences of 8 other bereaved couples
making a book which is a resource for parents enduring a subsequent
pregnancy after the death of a baby through, miscarriage, stillbirth,
neonatal death or SIDS.
A copy can be obtained by sending $30 US (including postage and packing)
to PO Box 59 Prospect 5082 SOuth Australia

****************************************

The Mention of Her Name

"The mention of my child's name
May bring tears to my eyes,
But it never fails to bring
Music to my ears.
If you are really my friend,
Let me hear the beautiful music of her name.
It soothes my broken heart
And sings to my soul."
Author Unknown


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