# Oppose Amendment Prohibiting Desecration of the American Flag



## Hilary Briss (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

S.J.RES.4
Title: A joint resolution proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States authorizing Congress to prohibit the physical desecration of the flag of the United States.
Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah is sponsoring a bill which prohibits physical desecration (read: flag burning) of the American flag. Please contact your senator to register your opposition to this amendment, on the grounds that it is absurd to implement constitutional amendements over such trifling matters, and because flag desecration is an important form of political protest.

For more information, see:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquer...@@L&summ2=m&


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## Sisyphus (Mar 26, 2003)

So, I'm guessing that the Bushies think the Constitution of the USofA wasn't really much more than "guidelines"???? How many ammendments are they pushing?? Geeze louise... what next, an ammendment that you have to swear allegiance to W five times a day while facing Texas??


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Here's a list of co-sponsors, taken from HB's link.

Quote:

COSPONSORS(56), ALPHABETICAL [followed by Cosponsors withdrawn]: (Sort: by date)
Sen Alexander, Lamar [TN] - 1/16/2003
Sen Allard, A. Wayne [CO] - 1/16/2003
Sen Allen, George [VA] - 1/16/2003
Sen Baucus, Max [MT] - 1/16/2003
Sen Bond, Christopher S. [MO] - 1/16/2003
Sen Breaux, John B. [LA] - 1/16/2003
Sen Brownback, Sam [KS] - 1/16/2003
Sen Bunning, Jim [KY] - 1/16/2003
Sen Burns, Conrad R. [MT] - 1/16/2003
Sen Campbell, Ben Nighthorse [CO] - 1/16/2003
Sen Chambliss, Saxby [GA] - 1/29/2003
Sen Coleman, Norm [MN] - 3/5/2003
Sen Collins, Susan M. [ME] - 1/16/2003
Sen Cornyn, John [TX] - 1/16/2003
Sen Craig, Larry E. [ID] - 1/16/2003
Sen Crapo, Michael D. [ID] - 1/16/2003
Sen Dayton, Mark [MN] - 1/16/2003
Sen DeWine, Michael [OH] - 1/16/2003
Sen Dole, Elizabeth H. [NC] - 5/5/2003
Sen Domenici, Pete V. [NM] - 1/16/2003
Sen Ensign, John E. [NV] - 1/16/2003
Sen Enzi, Michael B. [WY] - 3/5/2003
Sen Feinstein, Dianne [CA] - 1/16/2003
Sen Fitzgerald, Peter [IL] - 3/26/2003
Sen Frist, Bill [TN] - 1/16/2003
Sen Graham, Lindsey O. [SC] - 1/16/2003
Sen Grassley, Charles E. [IA] - 1/16/2003
Sen Gregg, Judd [NH] - 1/16/2003
Sen Hagel, Chuck [NE] - 1/16/2003
Sen Hollings, Ernest F. [SC] - 1/16/2003
Sen Hutchison, Kay Bailey [TX] - 1/16/2003
Sen Inhofe, Jim [OK] - 1/16/2003
Sen Johnson, Tim [SD] - 3/19/2003
Sen Kyl, Jon [AZ] - 3/19/2003
Sen Lincoln, Blanche [AR] - 1/16/2003
Sen Lott, Trent [MS] - 1/16/2003
Sen Lugar, Richard G. [IN] - 1/16/2003
Sen McCain, John [AZ] - 1/16/2003
Sen ******, Zell [GA] - 1/16/2003
Sen Murkowski, Lisa [AK] - 1/29/2003
Sen Nelson, E. Benjamin [NE] - 1/16/2003
Sen Nickles, Don [OK] - 5/19/2003
Sen Reid, Harry M. [NV] - 3/19/2003
Sen Roberts, Pat [KS] - 1/16/2003
Sen Rockefeller, Jay [WV] - 3/5/2003
Sen Santorum, Rick [PA] - 1/16/2003
Sen Sessions, Jeff [AL] - 1/16/2003
Sen Shelby, Richard C. [AL] - 1/16/2003
Sen Snowe, Olympia J. [ME] - 1/16/2003
Sen Specter, Arlen [PA] - 3/5/2003
Sen Stevens, Ted [AK] - 1/16/2003
Sen Sununu, John E. [NH] - 3/20/2003
Sen Talent, Jim [MO] - 1/16/2003
Sen Thomas, Craig [WY] - 3/19/2003
Sen Voinovich, George V. [OH] - 1/23/2003
Sen Warner, John W. [VA] - 1/16/2003
All the usual suspects, plus a few surprises.....








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## KermitMissesJim (Feb 12, 2004)

Nope, I'm with Hatch on this one.


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## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

Ben Nighthorse Campbell is no longer a Senator.

How old is this bill?

And moving this to Activism!


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## Hilary Briss (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

And moving this to Activism!
Curses, foiled again...







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Quote:

Nope, I'm with Hatch on this one.
Would you care to explain why?







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## Hilary Briss (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

How old is this bill?
Well, if you'd actually followed my link, you'd see it was put forward in January of 2003, but there was action on it as recently as 8/25/04. Given the glacial pace of some legislation, I'd say this is on the fast track.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

That's utterly absurd.

Can I make a flag and then burn it?

Can I burn a piece of paper with a picture of the flag on it?

What exactly constitutes an "American Flag"? Does it have to be made by certified American Flag makers to be considered legit? Or can some crappily made red, white and blue cloth be burned and it's considered "desecration"?

It's a material object, folks.







My uncle is a Vietnam Vet - he witnessed babies being run over by American bulldozers and his comrades crawling on the ground searching for their lost limbs before bleeding to death. If he wants to burn a d*mn American flag, more power to him.









These crusty old white guys need to find more productive things to do. Sheesh, with all the turmoil and death and destruction in the world, they're giving their energy to THIS????

Give me my tax money back.







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## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

Don't you get snarky with me Hilary Briss.









:LOL


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

G.B. Trudeau pointed out some time ago that the prescribed "respectful" method of disposal for American flags is ... yes, burning. Which means that essentially, what a law like this would actually outlaw is a certain opinion. Which is just







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## KermitMissesJim (Feb 12, 2004)

Oh, I don't think my reasons would hold much water here, it's mainly Book of Mormon title of liberty verses...

http://scriptures.lds.org/query?word...&search=Search

But I'm anal about this in all directions. I don't like representations of the flag on clothing, bags, flipflops, etc., or clothing that looks like it's made out of flags (even if it wasn't).


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## liawbh (Sep 29, 2004)

Would this make it illegal to tie a flag to one's car and then drive around with it long after it is faded and shredded into uselessness? How about all those faded peeled and cracked window stickers? Or the ones with radio station names all over them?


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## Hilary Briss (Nov 22, 2001)

I don't know what the Book of Mormon is, and based on your link, I think I've seen more than I need. Not quite sure I understand your reasoning, but, fair enough.


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## KermitMissesJim (Feb 12, 2004)

'S'all good.









I can almost agree that it's a waste of time and resources to get this in the Constitution....seems like there are many more important issues.

It reminds me of the Bullwinkle and Rocky episode where Natasha and Boris are spreading "Goof Gas" throughout the USA (for reasons I can't remember, probably so Fearless Leader could take over) and they went to Congress, where a member was sponsering a bill to spend a HUGE amount of money to figure out why the government spends so much money. Natasha asked Boris if they should spray the room with Goof Gas, and Boris said, "what they are saying *is* Goof Gas!"

Ah, Bullwinkle and Rocky. Good times.

Anyway, back to reality.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Call me an American ignorant, but it's.....just.....a.....flag.

Holy creepin' catepillars batman, what next?

(Directed at Hatch, BTW)


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Yeah, it's a bit strange, isn't it Calm? The deification of the flag is an interesting cultural trait, one that Australia thankfully does not share with the US.

The bill was initiated some time ago, when some of the senators on the list were still in office. I believe it has been in committee for a while, but is scheduled to come before the Senate soon. I couldn't find a date on HB's link, but maybe I just missed it.

Once, a long, long time ago, I wore a huge 8 foot long flag as a Halloween costume. I cut a hole in the middle & put my head thru it & told everyone I was dressed up as freedom, or something like that..... I had a few cranky people come up to me that night at a street party, wanting to knock my teeth in. Oh well. I was in no condition to fight back that night (thank goodness for friends!) but I think I'd fight over an idea before I'd fight over a piece of cloth.....


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

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## Rhonwyn (Apr 16, 2002)

If this amendment passes I plan on burning a flag in protest. The flag will lose all meaning for me if it is against the law to burn it. Don't these people get it? If the flag is a representation of freedom, then it must be allowed to be burned or desecrated. Once this is taken away, it will no longer represent freedom and will only be a piece of cloth.


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## Terpatude (Nov 19, 2004)

I'm with Hatch on this one...I think desecration of the flag is horrendous and disgusting...


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rhonwyn*
If this amendment passes I plan on burning a flag in protest. The flag will lose all meaning for me if it is against the law to burn it. Don't these people get it? If the flag is a representation of freedom, then it must be allowed to be burned or desecrated. Once this is taken away, it will no longer represent freedom and will only be a piece of cloth.









ITA!









The freedom to burn the flag is an important right. It is the freedom of speech. Political speech is one of our most important rights in the USA. Our forefathers understood that the people need the right to openly disagree with the government. The people need the right to protest. Flag-burning is a method of protest. Our forefathers were intelligent enough to allow us those rights. We need to be intelligent enough to understand them.

The flag is a symbol. A symbol of freedom. If we are not allowed to burn the flag, that symbol is rendered meaningless. There is no freedom.

Why do so many people think that the symbol is more important than the freedoms it represents?

I was raised with the Bill of Rights as my bible. I was raised to love this country and what it stood for. Freedom. Equality. A place where the voices of the people would be heard and counted.
I am distraught that our voices are no longer heard or counted. I am depressed over losing so many of my freedoms. I am troubled by various government bodies refusing to recognize the equality of all peoples in this country.
My country is dying. The country where I celebrated my freedom to sit in silence during the Pledge of Allegience. The country where I attended rallies and marches in front of the White House. The country where I felt my representatives actually wanted to hear my voice.
If this amendment is passed, you'd better believe I'll be burning a flag. It will represent the death of my freedoms. The death of my rights. The death of my country. I will burn that flag as I mourn for the nation that once made me proud. I will burn that flag as I weep for the country that I had hoped to raise my son in. I will burn that flag in honor of Thomas Jefferson who would be appalled at such an amendment to the amazing document that is the Constitution of the United States.
I will burn that flag.
And I will be considered a criminal for exercising my Freedom of Speech.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

A flag is a symbol for each country and parts thereof. It is an icon. For some, an idol. Worship of a flag, or making a symbol such as a flag sacred makes no sense.

Leave symbols to the symbol minded - George Carlin.


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## cassdarrow (May 29, 2003)

I totally agree with Amendment! It may be indeed a waste of rsources, etc, when we have bigger things to fry in limited oil, (er, pun not intended there, but I'll leave it), but I agree with it nonetheless. I also don't wear or make garments that are flag-like in appearance. I guess I'm just symbol minded that way.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

For those who are for the amendment, answer this question:

Would you be willing to outlaw the desecration of your religious symbol, if it meant you could no longer practice your religion? Is the symbol of your religion more important than the tenets of your religion?

That's what I'm facing. Outlawing the desecration of the flag means that I will no longer be permitted to practice what the flag stands for.

Does anyone understand this?


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## Tata (Jun 2, 2004)

Ah, yes. Flag burning. Way back in Papa Bush's day ('88 - '92) this issue reared it's head. A lot of the same arguments and discussions were raised. Many media stories ran with images of very hairy people burning the flag. They looked "horrendous and disgusting". Then, of course it was the first Gulf war and images of turbaned folks stomping and burning the flag ran alongside. They looked "horrendous and disgusting".

The funny thing is, I remembered then as I do now, what I had to know to pass my civics test to get my sorry pre-pubescent ass into 8th grade. That burning the flag is unpatriotic. But, so are many other things that are commonplace among those with the dreaded, 'Flag Disease'. The flag IS NOT supposed to be on things like stickers, underwear, shoes, shirts, etc. It is only supposed to be displayed in good weather and in proper lighting. So, at night it needs to be lit up or taken in. I seem to remember that during Papa Bush's inoguration, he DRAPED himself in the flag. One of the more unpatriotic things you can do - wear the flag.

So, this is a total bunch of old BS perpetrated by old BS. They really have nothing better to do. During times of war it is pointed out to the public they need to be patriotic. Heavens, they need guidance, don't they? Bleh!

This is total distraction. The flag is routinely desecrated by the Bushies with all the patriotic crap they put on their cars, clothes and homes. What ever happened to basic civics?

If the flag cannot be burned in protest, then the flag means nothing.

Hilary, try watching the South Park episode on the Mormans. The story about John Smith is quite interesting. :LOL Also, watch Plan Ten From Outer Space. Nothing to do with the Bela Lugosi movie, Plan Nine From Outer Space (a fiinnne piece of cinema).


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Any changes to a constitution get voted on, right? Just wondering what the general public has thought of this and if it will get passed.


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## H&HMom (Jul 9, 2004)

Yeah, I remember reading in some old book that flags that are faded, shredded, and not in the proper shape to be flown are to be disposed of, and like Kristin said, that is by burning.

And this is what I just found on the USA flag site (http://www.usa-flag-site.org/faq/disposal.shtml):

"The only definitive answer is found in the US Flag Code. TITLE 4 > CHAPTER 1 > Sec. 8(k). It states:

"'The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.' "

So it's Ok to burn your flag in a dignified diposal ceremony, but soon won't be Ok to burn it in protest. Yeah, that's going to be easy to enforce!







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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Wishing I'd retained more of that PoliSci degree.... correct me if I'm wrong, & I indeed may well be, but I think any proposed constitutional amendment needs a 3/4 majority ratification by the States, after it passes both the House & Senate. It's a long process, hopefully one where the problems that H&Hmom pointed out are recognised- & the proposal gets dumped.







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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

So the public get to vote?


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## Hilary Briss (Nov 22, 2001)

If this amendment were to become law, and I saw someone that was wearing a T-shirt with an American flag on it, and I set that person, and their T-shirt, on fire, which would be the more serious offense? Burning the flag T-shirt, or burning the person?


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

That is a really fantastic question HB, I was wondering that myself.

If burning the flag would be a federal offense and setting someone on fire is a state crime I would say burning the flag would be worse. I think they can count you as a felon then and you can't vote.

That is just gross.

hhmmm..."horrendous and disgusting"? Interesting.

I will join in the mass Mothering.com arrest for flag burning. I will be sure and bring my DAR papers along as well just to give the point that extra "uuuhhhhh"


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## Hilary Briss (Nov 22, 2001)

Really, you're one of the Daughters, AM...?


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Yes, several people in my tribe are. Stupid us ey?

Learned our lesson in time to turn-coat for French and Indian war...heh (oops)


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## Hilary Briss (Nov 22, 2001)

I don't know a lot about US history, but wasn't the French and Indian War prior to the Revolutionary War?







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I guess, since I'm the OP, I am allowed to go off topic...


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Er...I mean war of 1812.









(is dork)


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## KermitMissesJim (Feb 12, 2004)

"And it came to pass that he rent his coat; and he took a piece thereof, and wrote upon it-In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children-and he fastened it upon the end of a pole." BoM, Alma 46:12

That was the specific scripture I was seeking. I feel the US flag is the banner under which we unite, all completely different from each other. Believing in different Gods (and Goddesses), different religions, but desiring freedom and peace for ourselves and our families, whatever their makeup. By ourselves I mean both individually and collectively.

We are in a time of disunity (is that even a word?) and I can see that some people may want to burn a flag to protest how far off the path we've gone.

I can't get in your face about it, you are free to choose. The amendment is a waste of resources, IMO. I also understand the motivation behind the amendment, though.

(P.S. I understood what you were saying, lotusdebi.)


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I was thinking about how it would feel burning an Australian flag. I tried to put the emotion the Americans feel about their flag onto my flag (we have a passion about our land, not flag "our land abounds in nature's gifts, our beauty rich and rare - from our anthem). And I admit, it made me feel sad and like it wasn't quite right. Just as I was about to come to this thread and write, "OK, OK, I get it, it isn't a good thing" I realised that that is my emotion, that is my feeling, and as Freud would say - my feeling is mine, not yours.

So, I've changed my mind back to my original thought, with additions. We shouldn't make ammendments with emotional bases, or for reasons that have little logic, all emotion. Because we don't share our emotions, but logic is something we do share (and by that I mean, something is either logical or not logical). Regardless of the loss of freedoms the ammendement would bring, the fact is it is an emotional argument, therefore, deserves no place in rational citizen protecting documentation.


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## Tata (Jun 2, 2004)

AAAAAYYYY-MENNNNN! (bow and prostate) Calm.


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## iris0110 (Aug 26, 2003)

I should have known Cornyn would be in on this. No matter how many times I send him letters, or how many times I vote against him he still does this crap.


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