# Is it CIO if I hold the baby while crying?



## sora (Oct 7, 2006)

Hi,

My 3month old wakes every one - two hours at night. I nurse him every time he wakes up. I'm so exhausted that I want to shoot myself. I'm trying to cut out at least one feeding at night around 2am so that he can sleep a little longer. I have been trying Shuushu-pat method. But doing Shuushu is so exhausting as I have to make it louder than his cry to make it work. It often takes about up to 2 hours to put him back to sleep without nursing him. Then he wakes up again after an hour! I'm thinking of letting him cry but lying with him while holding him or laying my hand over him. With ear plugs in, I might get some rest. I'm against CIO but is this CIO?

I've been trying to follow advice from baby whisperer and no cry solution books to help him sleep through the night. I am trying to disassociate his sleep with nursing but without nursing, he is very hard to fall back to sleep. I tried taking him off my breast when he starts to fall asleep but he keeps waking up every two hours. Also, he wakes up around 5 and won't go back to sleep easily. By the time he finally falls asleep, my old one wakes me up. I'm just about to go crazy.
With my first one, I co-slept and nursed her all night. She woke up every two hours until she's two and I had to try hard to cut night time nursing.
I don't want to do this again. Now that I have my older one to look after, I have no energy to do this with my second one. So I'm so desperate to sleep at least 4 hour stretch at night.
My baby is also a terrible napper. His longest nap is probably about an hour. He is tired all the time and so am I.

Do you have any other suggestion to help him sleep longer? Why is he waking up every hour early in the morning? Cutting out a feeding at night will help eventually? Now if I don't nurse him, it takes about 2 hours of shuushut pat, which is much worse than nursing him of course but if it will help him learn to fall alssp without nursing, I will stick to it.

Thanks so much.


----------



## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

He is 3 months old. Stop trying to cut out the feeding. I wouldn't even consider it until at least 6 months. JMHO.


----------



## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
He is 3 months old. Stop trying to cut out the feeding. I wouldn't even consider it until at least 6 months. JMHO.

I second this. At 3 months I wouldn't have tried to cut out anything or make them lose any associations. They're still so tiny and dependent on you at that age and they don't understand why their needs aren't being met.

Is there anyone at home who could get up with your older child so you get a few more hours of sleep then? Or any way you could convince her to stay in her room or your floor and quietly play? Maybe a new book or toy for just mornings that she has to use quietly?


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
He is 3 months old. Stop trying to cut out the feeding. I wouldn't even consider it until at least 6 months. JMHO.









:

3 months is far too young to deny any nursing request.

-Angela


----------



## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

I know that you're so tired and stressed and the last thing you need is an internet pile-on, but I have to agree with the above posters that now is not an appropriate time to cut out a feeding. A 3 month old is still a newborn and is growing at a fantastic speed. You, too, need to be building up as big a milk supply as you can. 3 months is one of the major growth spurts, and it affects not only DB, but also your supply.

Have you read the Happiest Baby on the Block? I found the techniques recommended very useful in soothing my children.

You might also want to try other sleeping arrangements to see if they help promote slightly longer stretches. Many babies sleep very well in the swing. You might also try a bouncy chair or even a carseat. It is very bad for their spine so it's not something I would do long term, but if you have a baby with bad reflux sleeping in a sitting up position might help. Some babies sleep better in very close quarters to their mother, and others need a little bit of space. If the baby is in your bed, I might suggest moving her to a bassinet on the other side of the room or in another room: if the baby is already sleeping separately from you, I might suggest bringing her into your bed. Though there are things that most babies like, even tiny newborns are little individuals with their own opinions!

But I would not under any circumstances withhold milk at this age.


----------



## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

And I just wanted to add that I totally understand your lack of patience with #2. I remember being not nearly so patient and understanding about meeting #2s needs in the middle of the night. So much of that was just that with #1 my entire schedule revolved around her, so I could nap when she napped and slept when she slept. With #2, an awful lot of my schedule still revolved around #1... she had to go to preschool whether I had woken up 20 times the night before or not!

So I am really, really sympathetic to your need for sleep. However, it's not #2's fault that he's #2 and your life can't revolve around him! He still needs to have his needs met, even at your expense. At least now you have the perspective that the newborn stage ends eventually!

Another book that I recommend is Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child. He is pro-CIO, and I would not take his advice about that. However, his advice about the sleep needs of newborns is invaluable. It may help you encourage better napping and longer sleep periods at night. His rule of thumb is that "sleep begets sleep" so that the more the baby naps during the day, the better he sleeps at night.

Good luck.


----------



## sora (Oct 7, 2006)

I'm surprised to hear that my baby is too young not to nurse all night. Tracy Hogg of Baby Whisperer says differently. He nurses a lot during the day and I also make sure I do cluster feeding in the evening so I did not think he would be hungry. My thinking is that he wakes up out of the habit. I guess all babies are different, but two of my friends have the babies almost same age as mine sleep through the night - like 7-10 hours a night.

Then when is the old enough to miss a feeding at night?

I have sidecarded his crib to my bed. I put him down to sleep there initially at night but I end up putting him in my bed because I have a king bed and there's lots of room.

I swaddle him very tight but he somehow gets out of his swaddle quite easily. And when he is loose, he wakes up easier. He used to sleep well in the swing but not so much any more. It might be because as he got heavier, the swing does not move as faster as it did. And he wants me to swing manually until he falls asleep and ends up waking up shortly after get up.

I also don't know how to make him nap longer - if I lie with him all the time, he might. But it's not practical most of time because of older one.


----------



## To-Fu (May 23, 2007)

I have to agree that three months old is too early to limit feedings. Her stomach is small; if she's waking and acting hungry, it's because she is. It's okay to trust her signals and respond to them. Besides, wouldn't it take less time to just feed her anyway? You might find that simple solution is the best way to get yourself some more sleep, and your daughter will know that you're there to respond to her needs.

I know it's hard when you have friends around you saying their kids sleep for long periods. Are they using some method of sleep training to achieve those results? If so, that's doing more harm than good in the long run. See what Dr. Sears says about it here (this is a really short bit):

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/7/T070700.asp

I'm not sure when is old enough to start missing feedings, but I know nightweaning usually isn't recommended until around a year (see Dr. Jay Gordon's site for specifics). And most of this advice is for older babies, but some of it might be useful for you now:

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/7/T070800.asp

I'd also be wary of the Babywhisperer. Here's what Kellymom.com (an evidenced-based site with breastfeeding info) says about her book in the context of attachment parenting:

http://www.kellymom.com/store/review...whisperer.html

I really do think it's too early to try to "train" your baby to sleep without eating whenever she's hungry at night. Ask yourself if it would help you get more sleep or not to just meet her needs and nurse. If she's not calming when you try to soothe her, it's because she still has a need that she wants you to meet. I always try the boob first because it's generally the easiest solution for my babies.









Good luck! I know how it feels to have two kids and to be exhausted. I hope you can find a way to catch a break and get some more sleep.


----------



## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

3 mos could be a growth spurt or whatever, too.

I feel for you on wanting to do things differently this time around (I felt the same way) but 3 mos is really young. Barely past newborn stage. I think you have to wait it out.

To answer your question I do not think that constitutes CIO in an older child. But at 3 mos I think it's pretty close.


----------



## BeantownBaby9 (Jan 15, 2009)

and at 4 months there's the sleep regression, and then the teeth start....you're just going to drive yourself nuts trying to make a teeny one 1, sleep longer by dropping a feeding, and 2, fall asleep without nursing.....I found myself in the same position as you at 3 months old, judging myself, feeling like a failure, because my child didn't fit the bill of goods I had been sold my whole life. Babies sleep. HA! Good one America. Yes some do, but most nursing babes need cuddles, frequent night nursing, and plenty of naps. The 90 min sleep cycle book is great for this, but IGNORE the CIO stuff.

My son woke every 45 or 90 min and for him, it was food sensitivities and allergies. He couldn't get comfortable, the Shhhhh was never enough, but the vacuum sound on my ipod was! Once I cut out wheat, dairy and a few other things, he slept lots better.

The proverbial bar is set unreasonably high in our country for when children should meet milestones, especially sleep ones. If you can let go of those yourself, your perspective will change and you will feel a million times better even if the sleep doesn't improve.


----------



## Tattooed Hand (Mar 31, 2009)

I think every baby is different. If your older child also slept like this, it's likely just the way they are. You will go crazy trying to compare your children to other people's. My DD is 8 months old and still wakes every 1-3 hours (she has sprouted 6 teeth in the last 6 weeks though). She doesn't need to nurse each time, but it's the easiest way to get her back to sleep. I still try the shushushu method, but that works like 25% of the time and then I resort to the boob. I have friends whose babies slept through the night at 2 months. Some were Ferberized. And some just are like that and STTN. But you know what, DD is already cruising the furniture and has been crawling for almost 2 months and their babies are only able to sit unassisted. Babies just do things at different speeds.

I know you are tired. I am tired too. But letting her cry while you try to sleep with ear plugs at 3 months is letting her cry without meeting her needs. You could try other things, but they take time to see results. In the short term, can you get some help to get some more sleep so that you can implement the gentler ways of encouraging longer stretches?

BTW, sleep begets sleep doesn't really work for DD, and neither does alot of the sleep advice in the No cry sleep solution. But taking the nipple out just before she falls asleep nursing did help her nap better during the day and before teething hell started, I could usually get a 4ish hour stretch at the beginning of the night. But it took about 4 weeks of seeming to not work before I saw some results.

Good luck mama, I don't have an older child to take care, that sounds hard!


----------



## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

And don't forget it might not just be hunger. Your baby could be waking up thirsty too. I know a lot of adults who wake up for water at 3am and I don't see why a baby would be any different (but obviously wanting milk instead of water).


----------



## just_lily (Feb 29, 2008)

If you are ok with pacifiers, you could maybe try one of those in case your baby just needs to suck. But I would just try once or twice... if they continue to fuss I would definitely feed her.

I found when my DD was small whenever I got to the point where I was going crazy and was ready to do something drastic about her sleep she changed all on her own. Routines and schedules change so quickly when they are little you may just have to hold out another couple of weeks and everything will be better.

And definitely don't compare babies, that will only make you crazy. My DD started sleeping longer stretches (4 to 5 hours) fairly early on, but didn't consistantly sleep all night (like 10 hours) until she was 18 months old. Naps were never longer than 45 minutes until she was well over a year old. My friend's daughter had sleep apnea and was up every 20 to 45 minutes all night long until she had her adnoids out. They are all different, and at this age you really just have to follow their cues.

Is there anyone that can take your older child for an afternoon so you can nap with the baby?


----------



## dianakaye (Mar 20, 2009)

I definitely feel your pain. Mine wasn't a champion sleeper either. I think PP made great suggestions, but I just want to add my 2 cents.

Play musical beds. Try every conceivable combination. Different things worked well for us at different times. I think at that stage my DS and I were sleeping on the futon facing each other with the boob out so that I didn't have to do anything. He would wake up, latch himself on and really not disturb me at all.

We relied pretty heavily on the pacifier. My DS was a really big baby and once he was good and chunky and I knew he wasn't hungry EVERY time he woke up (I'm thinking this happened sometime around 4-6 mo) I would alternate feeding him and giving him the paci.

Oh, and there are amazing products out there to help swaddle better, if that's what helps your LO sleep.

To answer the original question, no, it's not CIO if you're holding them, but 3 months is too early to do in-arms crying if you know that nursing would help him go back to sleep. I didn't feel comfortable doing that until mine was about 15 months. Every kid is different, but I would hold off on cutting out the feeding.

I think nighttime is the hardest time to be a great parent, but don't buy into EVERYTHING the baby whisperer has to say. I think some things she has spot on, but I really regret taking her advice on some things.


----------



## Liora (Aug 11, 2010)

I went through this same thing at 3 months because I "felt" I needed to drop a night feeding. Here's what worked:

1. NURSE THE BABY - I don't know why I was trying to stop but it was making me miserable. She is 18 months now and I still nurse whenever she wants at night (I WOHM too so she reverse cycled and nursed frequently at night - now just 1-2 times).

2. Miracle blanket. Mine is a swaddler too and she was too strong and got out. Then we got the miracle blanket!

3. Pacifier. My daughter has a strong need to suck. If bfing is going fine and the paci is just for sleeping I don't have a problem with this.

4. Learn to fall asleep while nursing. I realized at one point that the baby was falling back asleep and I was wide awake. I would practice my breathing and meditation and BAM! I was back out. Now I hardly wake.


----------



## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

At that age I had a 'great sleeper' and I felt like I was getting tons of sleep. The only reason I felt this way is because I learned to sleep through nursing. I nursed more or less all night long for the first 6-8 months. It started gradually slowing down around then and I didn't nightwean till 18 months. I fully expect that I will once again need to sleep on my side with the baby latched on forever. My back hates it, but sleep is necessary.


----------



## sunnygir1 (Oct 8, 2007)

My dd was a horrible sleeper. I totally feel your pain. I highly recommend you get some naps...find someone to hang with your baby while you sleep for a few hours. I feel like I've been sleep deprived for 4 years straight, and I don't know if I'll ever fully recover! I so miss sleeping through the night. I guess by the time they're 5 and 8 I might get to catch up a little.

Ds is better, but at 11 months he still nurses several times a night...I much prefer that to having to get up and bouncing him back to sleep which happens a couple times a week.

I never figured out how to get dd to sleep better/longer at night. For naps, you could try wearing him.

I think the pacifier is a great idea if he'll take it.

Also, although I don't think you should cut out a feeding, I also don't think you have to offer the breast first every time he wakes. You could try rocking/bouncing/pacifier, etc. first, but if he is rooting and seems to want to nurse, I think you should nurse him. I'm pretty sure my babes nursed every 2-3 hours for at least 4 months.

ETA: I held my screaming babies for hours on end...I don't think that's CIO. I also pushed them in the stroller, swing, or bouncy seat. I guess maybe lying beside your baby isn't much of a stretch beyond that, especially if you are touching him. I don't think I'd be able to rest like that, even with ear plugs. Do you breastfeed in the side-lying position? It is much more restful than listening to a screaming baby.


----------



## sparklefairy (May 21, 2005)

Put simply, Tracy Hogg is wrong. Seriously, this book is regarded as a poor source of information by the lactation world. Here's a review from a reputable lactation source: http://www.kellymom.com/store/review...whisperer.html And here's a thread on it from a couple years ago: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=832070 If I recall correctly, your child is a bit younger than NCSS is for.

Do keep in mind that 3 months is a classic time for a growth spurt. Get through a few more days and you may find that he sleeps longer of his own accord.

During growth spurts, babies nurse more to up your supply. And nursing at night is especially beneficial because prolactin levels are higher then than during the day.

At three months, I would absolutely be feeding on cue and not think of each nursing session as a "feeding" but a greater part of baby care.

This is also an age at which moms frequently find that if baby has easy access to the breast at night they are able to sleep through feedings themselves and better rested.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sora* 
I'm surprised to hear that my baby is too young not to nurse all night. Tracy Hogg of Baby Whisperer says differently. He nurses a lot during the day and I also make sure I do cluster feeding in the evening so I did not think he would be hungry. My thinking is that he wakes up out of the habit. I guess all babies are different, but two of my friends have the babies almost same age as mine sleep through the night - like 7-10 hours a night.

Then when is the old enough to miss a feeding at night?

I have sidecarded his crib to my bed. I put him down to sleep there initially at night but I end up putting him in my bed because I have a king bed and there's lots of room.

I swaddle him very tight but he somehow gets out of his swaddle quite easily. And when he is loose, he wakes up easier. He used to sleep well in the swing but not so much any more. It might be because as he got heavier, the swing does not move as faster as it did. And he wants me to swing manually until he falls asleep and ends up waking up shortly after get up.

I also don't know how to make him nap longer - if I lie with him all the time, he might. But it's not practical most of time because of older one.


----------



## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnygir1* 
My dd was a horrible sleeper. I totally feel your pain. I highly recommend you get some naps...find someone to hang with your baby while you sleep for a few hours. I feel like I've been sleep deprived for 4 years straight, and I don't know if I'll ever fully recover! I so miss sleeping through the night. I guess by the time they're 5 and 8 I might get to catch up a little.

Ds is better, but at 11 months he still nurses several times a night...I much prefer that to having to get up and bouncing him back to sleep which happens a couple times a week.

I never figured out how to get dd to sleep better/longer at night. For naps, you could try wearing him.

I think the pacifier is a great idea if he'll take it.

Also, although I don't think you should cut out a feeding, I also don't think you have to offer the breast first every time he wakes. You could try rocking/bouncing/pacifier, etc. first, but if he is rooting and seems to want to nurse, I think you should nurse him. I'm pretty sure my babes nursed every 2-3 hours for at least 4 months.

ETA: I held my screaming babies for hours on end...I don't think that's CIO. I also pushed them in the stroller, swing, or bouncy seat. I guess maybe lying beside your baby isn't much of a stretch beyond that, especially if you are touching him. I don't think I'd be able to rest like that, even with ear plugs. Do you breastfeed in the side-lying position? It is much more restful than listening to a screaming baby.

I second and I really, really feel your pain and know that you are just trying to make yourself psychologically capable of caring for your two babies.

However, I can say for sure that you can still get the second to sleep longer at night *even if you don't start at three months*.

I tried at three months to shush and pat and it was hard. There were two problems. One, I didn't have the TIME with an older child to nurse constantly during the day. So yes, she was hungry. Two, I couldn't sleep during the day (because of DD1) so I had NO stamina at night to keep shushing.

Binkies did not work.

However, I can say for sure that I got her to sleep much longer when she was around six months. I went back to NCSS (incidentally, she says three months is the EARLIEST you can try it) and I still go back.

Because I stay up late decompressing, I don't have the stamina to put her back in bed at three a.m. or five a.m. however, she actually does sleep that long... at 16 months.










I think that letting her co-sleep these first few months, and side-lying nursing, is probably going to get you more sleep. Then when you're more well-rested, you can go back to NCSS.


----------



## friskykitty (Jul 4, 2010)

I would nurse. Baby at 3 months is too young to drop a feeding. Co sleeping should help you both get more sleep. Remember that this is a short lived time in life and that they outgrow it. Big hugs.


----------



## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

I understand not wanting to "free feed" near-constantly all night.

It is early to nightwean, but I don't think its too early to have defined "feeding times" while cosleeping. I know people will say "Just learn to sleep with baby latched on," and sometimes that works, but if I did it too long or too often, I would hurt all over so badly the next day. Even when I got "enough sleep," I was having to hold myself in the same position for longer than I normally would during sleep.

So I always wore a PJ top and usually wore a soft bra to bed in the first few months (this was comfort thing). Which meant that I had to wake up enough to pop out a breast and latch the baby on. But left me some measure of personal space that I think *I* needed to be more comfortable. When baby was done and back to sleep I'd pop out the nipple and tuck myself back in. I think this helped there be longer intervals between nursing sessions at night.


----------



## sora (Oct 7, 2006)

What is NCSS? Thanks.


----------



## Peony (Nov 27, 2003)

NCSS= No Cry Sleep Solution


----------



## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

Sora let me tell you i did the whole baby whisperer thing from day one with DD and shes 10 m/o and guess what IT NEVER FRICKIN WORKED made my life hell always shh patting and obsessing over naps and independent sleep!! then i started co-sleeping and nursing on demand and nursing to sleep and DD actually naps and sleeps great now! i just put my mattress on the ground. i am consistent with nap times and i do a wind down still then lay in bed with her and nurse her to sleep then i leave. she sleeps for 2hours now when before she would only nap 30-45 mins, and she only wakes up 2x usually at night to nurse and sometimes STTN. DONT FORCE IT. seriously these are babies we are talking about. i dont understand how Tracy says on one hand respect them and listen to them then on the other hand let them cry for 2 hours while you pat their back and try to force them to sleep. hello it makes no sense!
i vote to try and get through and cherish the moments you have now. if im tired i nap with DD if i want to have me time or do chores i leave DD to nap in my bed on the floor by herself. she goes to bed in my bed the same way then when im ready for bed i go in and cuddle with her.
i WASTED months and months of my precious time with my baby and regret putting her through sleep training. its the same as CIO you cant just do it x amount of time and its all over. there is teething and milestones and everything else you have to be prepared to keep doing it over and over and over its horrible. babies need nurturing not to be forced into things.

(((hugs))) i know how hard it is and you are trying to figure out what's best for you're LO but seriously stay away from BW because it's not what's best.


----------



## Hannah32 (Dec 23, 2009)

Can you pump a bottle and get your hubby to give it to the baby and then soothe the baby back to sleep? We do that once per night. I have a seven week old and it's quite helpful.


----------



## ACsMom (Apr 21, 2006)

Sora,

To answer your original question, in my opinion, letting a baby cry _while holding him_ and giving him your sympathetic attention is NOT the same as CIO. Sometimes babies need to have a good cry - so do we all. Crying is a normal human response to stress and any strong emotion, and it is one of the functions that helps cleanse the body of stress hormones that build up due to our daily experiences. There are times when babies are crying simply because they need to. That said, it can be hard to tell when this is the case. At three months, assuming there was no undue birth trauma, your baby probably doesn't have a whole lot of crying he "needs" to do. Do you co-sleep? I apologize if you've already mentioned this; I didn't read the entire thread. Co-sleeping babies do tend to wake up more often to nurse at night, for a longer period of time. Not that you shouldn't co-sleep; I think the long-term benefits outweigh the hard parts, for most babies anyway. I co-sleep with my 6 month-old, who wakes up 2-3 times a night to nurse. Sometimes she'll wake up, nurse, then want to play for a while, which is a real bummer for me and makes for a bad night. I haven't figured out yet what to do about this other than wait it out. But generally what I do is this: she wakes up, I nurse her, and if she doesn't fall right back to sleep, I flip around and nurse her on the other side, too, to get her tanked up. Then I change her diaper, if necessary, and make sure she's otherwise comfortable and taken care of. After that, I just lay there with her, pretending to be asleep while she plays. If she starts to cry I just hold her and talk softly to her - generally if she starts to cry at this point I've learned it's because she's tired and wants to sleep, but has gotten herself too jazzed up. For whatever reason the crying seems to help her fall asleep - it's like she blows out some ballast or something. She gets lots of reassurance from me during the crying, and it usually only lasts a few minutes. So...that's what works for me. You could try this without necessarily dropping a feeding - just nurse him well, meet any other needs, then snuggle him and if he cries, let him know you're there and you understand. Even at 3 months old he will feel the love. Just my 2 cents. Well, that was more like 4 cents.


----------



## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Shush and pat sounds like spending a lot of time awake when you could be laying down nursing your baby and sleeping.

Learning how to nurse laying on my side was the best thing I ever did in nearly 2 years of parenting.


----------



## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

well, to answer the title question, no it's not CIO if you hold the baby, it's called in-arms crying...however, what you go on to describe is not quite either, its sort of in the middle, bc you are intentionally denying the very thing your baby needs to stop crying!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sora* 
"Then when is the old enough to miss a feeding at night?"

and

"I also don't know how to make him nap longer"

answer to the first part is: he's old enough when he misses it on his own bc he is sleeping...except if he naturally sleeps through a feeding, he's not really missing it at all, bc he no longer needed it to begin with!

and to the seond part: BABY SLING!!! best piece of equipment i ever bought.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hannah32* 
Can you pump a bottle and get your hubby to give it to the baby and then soothe the baby back to sleep? We do that once per night. I have a seven week old and it's quite helpful.

OP, be aware of the effect this may have on your milk supply.


----------



## lookatreestar (Apr 14, 2008)

i think it depends on the baby. neither of mine ever cried or needed to have a good cry. but we did however co sleep and i nurse them on demand day or night. they are babies. a 3 month old still has a tiny stomach and bm is so easily digested.


----------

