# Please respond with love...



## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Okay, I'm pregnant again and we dont' know the sex yet so this whole post could end up moot...

We had DS circ'd. I had been a member of MDC, rolled my eyes at the TCAC forum, and went on with it...when he came back hiccuping from the crying I felt bad. When the dressing came off and I SAW the raw wound I broke down and sobbed. He has 2 skin bridges (one in the exact same place as DH oddly enough) and I've never mentioned it to a medical person because I don't want them to go "Oh, well, we'll just cut that" or something.

I'm on the fence right now. I could use LOVING comments...I don't want to be a UAV, but I know I need to be specific because this is a passionate subject. I would especially like to hear from moms that were on the fence and how your thought process went in making your decision.

I'm terrified of coming across a problem. One of DH's cousins (I just found out tonight) isn't circ'd. Apparently he had chronic UTIs as a child and the ped said it was because he wasn't circ'd. One of DH's coworkers dated a guy in college that wasn't circ'd and she said that he had CONSTANT infections and that's why she had all of her boys done.

My mindset is currently: IF it needs to be done later it can be...and usually WITH anesthetic. I can't undo it after it's already done.

Help?


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## Baby~Braatens~Mama (Apr 21, 2010)

I am going through this same emotional heartbreak, though I have not had a child yet. Our babe is a boy and I have been going back and forth through the positives and negatives of both. I absolutely hate to bring my child ANY pain, especially if it is unnecessary... but even in this anti-circ board most of the posts are desperate mothers worried about forced retraction, uti's, nameless boils and cysts, bleeding and infections. All uncirc'd boys, and I can't help but question myself on the morality of the possibility of putting my child through years of pain until he is old enough to tell me that he would like a circumsision... Not saying that every uncirc'd kid has problems. But the number of stories is overwhelming for this first time mom.


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## Red Pajama (Jun 11, 2007)

I think I know how you feel. One reason (among many) that I believe I'm done having children is I don't want to face the circ decision again.


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Baby~Braatens~Mama* 







I am going through this same emotional heartbreak, though I have not had a child yet. Our babe is a boy and I have been going back and forth through the positives and negatives of both. I absolutely hate to bring my child ANY pain, especially if it is unnecessary... but even in this anti-circ board most of the posts are desperate mothers worried about forced retraction, uti's, nameless boils and cysts, bleeding and infections. All uncirc'd boys, and I can't help but question myself on the morality of the possibility of putting my child through years of pain until he is old enough to tell me that he would like a circumsision... Not saying that every uncirc'd kid has problems. But the number of stories is overwhelming for this first time mom.

Keep in mind that this is one of the best places to go to ask questions about intact boys. It shouldn't be interpreted that such events are common.


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## brant31 (Jan 11, 2009)

You are a wise partner & mom to approach this matter again, thoughtfully and without derision, to gain a clear idea of what is best for your family.

It hasn't been that long that parents - and even the medical profession - have been aware that the longstanding advice to "retract & clean, retract & clean" was wrong. It undoubtedly contributed to many, if not most, of the problems that intact American guys had in the past. It's a surefire way to tear the normal adhesions of the developing penis, mess up the natural flora of the glans tip and urethra, and inadvertently introduce pathogens. We once knew this intuitively as a nation, but lost the knowledge as circumcision replaced intactness. For this reason, I never believe using intact American's experiences is good guidance, particularly regarding guys born a generation & two ago when circumcision was highest and intact knowledge was lowest.

Half of my relatives live in Europe, and I have never, ever once heard any stories about any foreskin problems among my cousins & nephews. Because Europe never lost the hand-me-down knowledge of just leaving alone, they let nature take its course and all is generally fine.

You don't have to buy into the beliefs of many here that circumcision can have deep-seated and lasting physical and psychological side effects. That is still a controversial issue. It is every bit as legitimate to base your decision solely on which approach has the fewest complications, for example.

I hope many parents weigh in with useful, sensitive comments about their own experiences. You sound like you have already overcome the "look like the rest of the guys in the family" hurdle and only want what is best for each member of your family, now and in the future. Read lots, and best of luck!


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

The problem thing is odd to me, b/c my DH and 3 DS's are intact, as are my brothers, and I've never heard of any issues due to not circ'ing. I know that probably doesn't help ease your fears, but I honestly can't think of any male who has had issues (not that we talk about penises all the time, or anything).

What I have heard about, IRL and online, is problems with botched circs. When I worked on mother & baby I'll never forget the fear two young parents had when they changed their son's diaper and he was bleeding really bad - the nurses rushed him out, saying it was really dangerous. I don't know what happened to him (I was just there taking newborn photos), but I'm sure it happens to other newborn boys.

Anyhow, good luck researching and soul searching.


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## KayTeeJay (Jul 22, 2008)

There are positive and negative anecdotes on both sides of the issue, and none of them will matter if it's your son that's having problems. For us, one factor of many that heavily influenced our decision was, as the OP said, it can always be done but can't be undone. I would certainly rather deal with issues if they pop up (which, incidentally, none have) than have my son go through the pain, loss of sensitivity, etc... for a problem that might never occur. Best of luck in your decisions--I'm sure having one son already circ'd doesn't make it any easier.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Keep in mind that most of the posts here that pertain to "problems" are here simply because the poster does not know where else to ask. A vast majority of the problems have been caused by doctors who are totaly ignorant of normal, intact male genitalia. I too have intact relatatives in Europe, and one never hears of issues there becuse there aren't any.

If our doctors here would just leave little boys foreskins alone, and advise parents to do the same, there would be no problems. A foreskin does not have to retract, or be scrubbed clean or be subjected to any othe manipulation. Remember - nature does not make mistakes - the design is perfect !!


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## japonica (May 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fellow Traveler* 
Keep in mind that this is one of the best places to go to ask questions about intact boys. It shouldn't be interpreted that such events are common.

Exactly...these threads are posted because this is the best place to ask for advice and help. As one of the members said the other day, no one posts daily that everything is fine, although I'm sure the majority of us could do that. And other places online, I read just as many posts about circ complications: bleeding issues, adhesions ("just keep ripping it and letting it heal again"), botched circs, bad scars.

My brother, father, uncles, grandfather...all the men on my dad's side of the family are/were intact and I never heard of anyone requiring a circ in their adult years or of any problems. Considering the vast majority of the world's men are intact, if foreskins were that inconvenient, dangerous, and all, then I'm sure you'd see huge rates of adult men getting circed, but that is not the case.

To the OP: kudos to you for posting and giving it some serious thought.







I was never on the fence, but my mindset was similar to yours in that it cannot be undone. My view was that it's my son's body, so not my choice to make. If he decides he wants a circ when he's an adult, that's his business, but I'm not making that choice for him. I hope you'll stick around and keep reading and posting...it's a wonderful community with a lot of information.


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## nia82 (May 6, 2008)

I'm from Europe and I only know one case of true phimoses (sorry, spelling). Of course nobody in my family, circle of friends or anyone I know is circumcised but my cousin due to a phimoses. Everyone in my family felt very sad for him to have a circ done, but it's not a tight circ and he was 6 years old and in pain, but not badly and the docs recommended it. I doubt they would ever recommend it light-heartedly.
My MD sister said they don't do newborn circs, at least at her hospital. It is only done with older kids under full anesthesia. I know my mom had several Muslim boys in her class and they all had it done at age 9 as a rite of passage, with a huge party, but it was a surgery with full anesthesia at the hospital. A lot of them felt sick for a while or got infections, it must be a hard adjustment.

That being said, you can always do it later if you want to, but you cannot take it back.


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## 2boyzmama (Jun 4, 2007)

Like a PP said, this is an extremely knowledgeable place, one of the best on the internet, so many moms flock here if they have questions. For every mom that asks a question about a potential issue, there are dozens who never encounter an issue.

I have three intact sons, the only issue I've ever had was one nurse that retracted my middle son during a VCUG (which is a test for urinary reflux after he had a UTI at 9 weeks old. Turned out his UTI had absolutely nothing to do with his foreskin status)

Like you are experiencing now, a circumcised penis is not without its share of troubles, go to any mainstream board and you will find many mamas talking about their sons having to be re-circ'd, or adhesions being corrected, or buried penises. Those moms talk about those issues like they are just normal, when in fact they are directly a result of the circumcision, and would not happen if the circ had never been done.

I usually tell moms to try to take the emotion out of the decision and focus on just facts, but in your case I'd encourage you to remember the way you felt when your son was brought back to you. That was pure mama bear right there, and in my experience, mama bear has never been wrong. Mama bear doesn't get riled up over a heel prick for newborn screening, mama bear doesn't get riled up over a needle stick for an IV even. I held my child down while they put 10 stitches into his eyeLID (not eyebrow), I hooked up an IV pump to my special needs child's PICC line every day for 4 weeks. In those cases, my heart hurt for my little guy, he was in pain and I didn't like it. But mama bear did not come out. I think there's something to be said about that guttural reaction you experienced. And I'm so sorry that you did experience it
















Read, read, read. Research everything from the purported benefits to the risks. Research foreskin function. Research the history of the procedure. Research care of the intact penis. Research what other cultures do. Talk to your Ped, your OB, cold-call some other Peds. Ask questions like "what do you recommend and why? What reasons do you think warrant the procedure? What if any issues have you see with uncirc'd and circ'd?" Then go look them all up on your own. For every issue with the intact penis, seek out other ways to manage it. Let's say you believe that there might be an increase in UTIs...how else could they be prevented or treated? Let's say the STD research is concerning to you...how else could they be prevented or treated? Are those other methods preferable to circ?

GOod luck in this journey mama, and good luck with the pregnancy!


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fellow Traveler* 
Keep in mind that this is one of the best places to go to ask questions about intact boys. It shouldn't be interpreted that such events are common.

I thought about this in the shower...if I hadn't had a mom that breastfed me until 14mo the BFing forum would have scared me off because it's full of moms asking for advice about infection and pain and cracks and AAAHHHH... Like someone said in another thread: No one comes in and posts "My son's penis is GREAT today." No one comes into the BFing forum and does weekly updates about how well it's going.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
The problem thing is odd to me, b/c my DH and 3 DS's are intact, as are my brothers, and I've never heard of any issues due to not circ'ing. I know that probably doesn't help ease your fears, but I honestly can't think of any male who has had issues (not that we talk about penises all the time, or anything).


Everyone I know is circ'd (well, everyone that I know anything about them personally...)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KayTeeJay* 
There are positive and negative anecdotes on both sides of the issue, and none of them will matter if it's your son that's having problems. For us, one factor of many that heavily influenced our decision was, as the OP said, it can always be done but can't be undone. I would certainly rather deal with issues if they pop up (which, incidentally, none have) than have my son go through the pain, loss of sensitivity, etc... for a problem that might never occur. Best of luck in your decisions--*I'm sure having one son already circ'd doesn't make it any easier.*









I did a post a while back that actually made me WANT to circ any other boys because it ended up full of comments along the lines of, "Well, you'll have to tell the other son that you mutilated him for no reason." It made me feel even worse...Hence the "only respond with love" qualifier.


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## MamaChicken (Aug 21, 2006)

My first son is circ'd.

10 years passed and I was about deliver my twin boys. I saw pros and cons for both, but in the end, the complications from a circ seemed much more dangerous than a possible infection or two. IF it turned into something more chronic or serious, a circ could be done later.

FWIW, almost two years later and we have no problems.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *japonica* 
To the OP: kudos to you for posting and giving it some serious thought.







I was never on the fence, but my mindset was similar to yours in that it cannot be undone. My view was that it's my son's body, so not my choice to make. If he decides he wants a circ when he's an adult, that's his business, but I'm not making that choice for him. I hope you'll stick around and keep reading and posting...it's a wonderful community with a lot of information.

Thank you.

I was talking to my MIL about it and I said that I heard there was a way where they pull the foreskin forward and cut the excess and just expose part of the head of the penis. She said, "I thought that was how it was done." My eyes got big and I said, "No, there's tearing and ripping and cutting...all without any anesthetic." She said, "Well, then just don't do it and have it done later if something goes wrong." So...it's an easy mindset to get into.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Baby~Braatens~Mama* 







I am going through this same emotional heartbreak, though I have not had a child yet. Our babe is a boy and I have been going back and forth through the positives and negatives of both. I absolutely hate to bring my child ANY pain, especially if it is unnecessary... but even in this anti-circ board most of the posts are desperate mothers worried about forced retraction, uti's, nameless boils and cysts, bleeding and infections. All uncirc'd boys, and I can't help but question myself on the morality of the possibility of putting my child through years of pain until he is old enough to tell me that he would like a circumsision... Not saying that every uncirc'd kid has problems. But the number of stories is overwhelming for this first time mom.

My son is nearly 15, intact and has no issues whatsoever.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

UTI have NOTHING to do with having a foreskin or not. That myth was shown to be a myth many years ago. Girls have them at a much higher % than boys do yet we cut nothing off them.

I am curious but feel free to ignore me. If your ds has bridges you know first hand what can and does go wrong so why would you even consider risking that for your new ds? I mean an infection give abx skin bridge unless he wants to have it fixed is for life and dh's bridge gets infected from time to time yes he chooses to keep it because he dosnt want his penis cut on any more.

I hope you can get past worrying about what can happen with intact and remember that the odds of a circ complication is a whole lot higher than with the intact penis.

You dont have to tell your first ds that you mutilated him all you have to tell him is that when you had him you thought it was for the best to do it but learned later than it wasnt.

I cant even imagine risking my ds's life with circ. Yes boys can and do die every year from circ and yes that is here in the USA not some third world country. MRSA is rampant now and many circed boys get it and some loose their whole penis but I havnt heard a single case of MRSA causing the life of an intact child.


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

The only person I know with a foreskin issue IRL is dh, who has phimosis due to scar tissue memories of his mother repeatedly forcibly retracting him, so I'd imagine she did it daily for years. Even with the phimosis, you couldn't pay him enough money to get circumcised. In fact, he avoided trying to get steroid cream to help with it for years because he was sure he'd just be told to have a circumcision.

I also have a male friend in his early 20's who can't have an orgasm because of the damage from his circumcision. He didn't even realize that was the cause until I told him, poor guy. Most circ problems are just passed off as "one of those things" instead of the complications from infant surgery they really are.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MCatLvrMom2A&X* 

I am curious but feel free to ignore me. If your ds has bridges you know first hand what can and does go wrong so why would you even consider risking that for your new ds? I mean an infection give abx skin bridge unless he wants to have it fixed is for life and dh's bridge gets infected from time to time yes he chooses to keep it because he dosnt want his penis cut on any more.
.

He had a bridge and a scar where there was a HOLE from where they botched it...he said it was just always a part of his penis and he's never had an issue with it. I think that's what it comes down to: Even though it's a "problem" he's never had serious problems with it. It may not be a TRUE bridge. It's more like an adhesion I guess?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MCatLvrMom2A&X* 
You dont have to tell your first ds that you mutilated him all you have to tell him is that when you had him you thought it was for the best to do it but learned later than it wasnt.

This. There's no way to know how your first ds will feel about it when he's older, but there's no reason for people to be so nasty about it. What's done is done. I feel sorry for your ds (the skin bridges) and for you, having that experience. But, as a mother of four, I can tell you that making a mistake - of any kind - with one child doesn't mean I (or you) have to repeat that mistake with every other child, just to keep it "even". I just explain "well, at the time/in those circumstances/whatever, that was the best I could do, and now/in these circumstances/whatever, _this_ is the best I can do".


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
This. There's no way to know how your first ds will feel about it when he's older, but there's no reason for people to be so nasty about it. What's done is done. I feel sorry for your ds (the skin bridges) and for you, having that experience. But, as a mother of four, I can tell you that making a mistake - of any kind - with one child doesn't mean I (or you) have to repeat that mistake with every other child, just to keep it "even". I just explain "well, at the time/in those circumstances/whatever, that was the best I could do, and now/in these circumstances/whatever, _this_ is the best I can do".

Thank you for this. Truly, thank you.


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## glongley (Jun 30, 2004)

To me, the most important perspective to take is that the foreskin is a normal, healthy, eminently functional body part (both protective and sexual functions). It's there for a reason, and it knows how to take care of itself just like every other part of the body, male or female.

The big problem is that as circumcision took hold from the Victorian era on into the 20th century, the foreskin not only became unfamiliar, it also was unjustifably demonized, and made into an object of fear and loathing. Fear comes from lack of knowledge.

Please keep educating yourself. If you're afraid of something in particular, research that. You'll find that the things you're afraid of are either not that common, are easily prevented by common sense behavioral measures, or turn out not to be that big a deal if they do occur (i.e. easily treatable). The true need for later circumcision is in truth very very small.

Here is a really good article about some of the normal variations or minor issues that might come up with the intact penis, that a doctor might sometime say a boy "needs" to be circumcised - and why its almost NEVER so. This is a very reassuring article and a must read for parents of intact boys, and those who are worrying about what might happen when choosing not to circumcise:
http://www.mothering.com/health/prot...advice-parents

The foreskin is no more problematic than any other body part. There is absolutely no reason to be afraid of leaving your son's penis whole as it is naturally made. The body knows what it's doing. Choose wholeness, not fear. Education is the key. The more you know, the more confident and comfortable you will be in leaving future sons intact.

BTW, this is not just about getting over fears of the normal, intact penis, but also looking at the risks and harms of circumcision with wide open eyes. The tendency is to minimize the risks, deny the harms, so make sure you educate yourself about the realities of the procedure, the potential complications, the effects on sexuality, and the ethical issues.

Thanks for being open to learning more, and I hope these responses are helpful in easing your concerns.

Gillian


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## tammylsmith (Jul 11, 2008)

I agonized over the decision up until ds was born. Deep down, I knew I didn't want to do it, but dh did. I was worried deep down that ds would somehow be angry at me in the future for it.... but the more I looked into it, the more it seemed like most men who are intact are happy with things, just like most men who are circ'd are generally happy with things (though, at least for dh, they attribute some of the discomforts of being circ'd as "just how things are")... so in the end, I couldn't justify a painful surgery if I knew that there was a high likelihood that ds would end up pleased as punch with his foreskin if I left things alone.

I decided that I couldn't predict everything, and I have no idea what my son will experience. He will likely get teased... about his hair, is weight, his height, or whatever arbitrary thing other kids find. We can't protect them from that. I know that what I can do is raise him with body confidence, and be confident myself that someday this little babe will be a man, and trust that he will know what he wants for himself.

In the end, after ds was born, dh was holding him very thoughtfully and looked up at me, and confessed that he thought I was right about "the whole circumcision thing" Now we joke about it as the "nonissue." It is just like I walked through Alice's looking glass, only when I got to the other side, I realized that looking back, I was on the side where things made sense







It was quite an aha moment for me, and a big relief! American society can really load on the guilt baggage.... but as soon as I realized what it really was--just implied baggage that could be tossed aside... it was easy as could be! I haven't regretted it for one second since.

Not to make this post any longer, because I've already written a novel, but I think almost all the problems people post are either related to improper medical advice or normal separation and things that take care of themselves. I think (actually, I know that now, because I understand it!) that the fire in many people's posts is from trying so hard to change the way society views circumcision. Change is really hard to set in motion, and it requires fire and passion to keep at it. I hope I haven't rambled too much and I wish you luck with your decision.

Your kids are lucky to have such a thoughtful mama!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
Thank you for this. Truly, thank you.

You're more than welcome. Being a mom is hard enough, without other people loading on guilt. (And, looking back to when I was a new mom in 1993, I think one of the hardest things about being a mom these days is the sheer information overload. It's useful, but it can be sooooo overwhelming.)


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## blumooned (Nov 11, 2009)

We were on the fence the whole time I was pregnant with DS (we didn't know he was a boy). We still didn't know what to do after he was born & asked various nurses, docs, aides at the hospital for advice. Most just said that it was up to us and didn't really give advice. Someone (can't remember who) talked about how circs were cleaner, less prone to infections, etc and we became convinced to do it. We had one scheduled. A couple hours before it, we were still going back & forth & asked another nurse what she thought. She told us how (from what she knew) hardly any of the doctors there had sons with circs. And none of the doctors who performed circs had circed sons. She said that it really wasn't dirtier or un-healthy in any way. I am so glad we spoke to her & she convinced us not to circ DS.

I am so happy DS is not circ-ed. So far, (knock on wood), there have been no problems. I hadn't discovered MDC yet when he was born, but now that I've read stuff on here, I realize that not circ-ing is not difficult & usually has very few or no problems.

I understand how big of a decision this is for you. My advice is to do lots of research & do what you feel is right in your heart for your little one. Also, I wouldn't do it just b/c your other DS has it. Even if they're both circ-ed they could still look different. And if you have new info now that you didn't have then, you may as well use it!


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

Well I've said this before, if DD had been a boy she may very well have been circ'd. I thought that there was a reason it was done and honestly most men in my age group are circ'd. That's what was done. I also was one to roll my eyes at the anti-circ thing, then I got pg with #2 and didn't know the gender, but in my heart I knew that the baby was in fact a boy. I did come here looking to see what the reasons were for anti-circ, then I read multiple studies. Plus in my area there are more natural minded mamas, and most boys I personally know that are young children and babies are not circ'd, my state is one of those that is falling below 25%.

When I was talking to DH about it I was worried, the I want him to look like me, locker room etc would come up. My Dh luckily trusted my research and in his experience as a teen the locker room thing is a load of BS, he never heard anybody tease anyone else. Plus my DH had the same fears that I did about a child being like DH after his circ, DH had to stay in the hospital due to bleeding complications from his circ, it was a risk we felt was completely avoidable.

I never thought that I'd become as passionate about being an intactivist , but I am I post on FB now, if I can change one persons mind about physically altering their child then I've done my job educating others.

It's OK that you had your son circ'd and you may not circ another, my SIL did with her first son, but by the time her second son was born 12 years later she was a more educated mom, she didn't feel it necessary because she knew it was/is an unnecessary procedure. You felt it was the right thing to do at that time.


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## billikengirl (Sep 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
My mindset is currently: IF it needs to be done later it can be...and usually WITH anesthetic. *I can't undo it after it's already done.*

(emphasis mine)What other body part that *might* get infected do we amputate at birth? It just makes no sense. Our kids would have all their parts cut off.

if it's done later for medical necessity (HIGHLY UNLIKELY), it would be done with anesthetic AND proper follow up pain medication AND you won't be dressing an open wound with poop and pee in a diaper. Remember if it's done at birth the whole glans is an open wound because the foreskin has to be ripped off like a fingernail. If you wait until it naturally separates/retracts then you don't have that going on.

The worst problem your intact son will run into is that someone THINKS he has a problem. Usually a US educated physician who has NO IDEA what to do with a foreskin besides cut it off. Foreskins do not cause UTIs. It's just an excuse to circ.


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## NightOwlwithowlet (Jun 13, 2009)

I agree with the posters who said no one ever comments about their kid's lack of issues.

My son is 8 years old and intact. He has never had any problems. Recently he saw a friend's penis while they were changing to go swimming. His friend is circumcised and, according to his mom, it went badly. DS took me aside and asked very sadly what happened to his poor friend's penis? DS has never seen anyone who is circumcised. He said, it looked funny.

Sadly, the friend's mom still insists if she had another son or had to do over again, she still have him circumcised because she wants him to look like everyone else.


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Baby~Braatens~Mama* 







I am going through this same emotional heartbreak, though I have not had a child yet. Our babe is a boy and I have been going back and forth through the positives and negatives of both. *I absolutely hate to bring my child ANY pain, especially if it is unnecessary... but* even in this anti-circ board most of the posts are desperate mothers worried about forced retraction, uti's, nameless boils and cysts, bleeding and infections. All uncirc'd boys, and *I can't help but question myself on the morality of the possibility of putting my child through years of pain until he is old enough to tell me that he would like a circumsision*... Not saying that every uncirc'd kid has problems. But the number of stories is overwhelming for this first time mom.

I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but it sounds like you are saying that in an effort to avoid the very small chance of your child experiencing minor pain later, you feel better exposing him to a 100% chance of severe pain as a newborn. I know that the argument for this is that he won't remember the pain, and chances are that is true, as long as he doesn't have any complications from the circumcision that require further surgery or that cause lifelong problems.

OP, you are correct in your equating this forum with the Breastfeeding forum as far as challenges go. As for your DS1, I think he will understand if you explain that you did what you thought was best for him when he was born. Getting DS2 circumcised isn't going to make things better for either of them. I see that others have already said this much better than I did: When you know better, you do better. I think you are doing a great job of asking questions to get educated.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I think first we have to realize that viewing the normal male penis as a ticking time bomb is purely cultural. Boys get the same infections as girls (who statistically get them more often even) and the treatment is also the same (unless you live in the US). If we lived in a culture that cut girls a forum like this would be just as full of questions about what to do when there is an issue with normal female genitalia. The out comes to said posts is really important to pay attention to because almost always everything turns out just fine (and with out removing the foreskin).
The foreskin is a healthy and functioning part of the body and we don't cut off other body parts (of newborns especially) just in case and the foreskin should be no different.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Here are a couple of threads you may want to take a look at.

The Post here if you've never had a problem thread.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1228068

The "Post here if you regret circumcising" thread.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=112410


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## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

OP, you are very brave to post this. I regret to say that I have two circ'ed boys. With ds1, I had never seen an intact foreskin and truly thought that if the OB was offering to do it, it should be done. At the time of his birth, I had become sexually active literally only 44 weeks prior (I was 17 and got pg 2 wks after my first experience). I had only ever seen one penis, and that was my son's father, and he was circ'ed.

Seven years later I struggled with the decision WRT ds2. I didn't know his gender until I was 42wks pg. For the whole pg, I went back and forth. By this time, I knew it wasn't necessary, but I had no idea that it was DANGEROUS. What I decided was that we would wait until day #8 (not for religious reasons, for medical) and I would insist on pain relief.

I can't tell the story of what happened that day. I think I may have told it on the Circ'ed and Regret It thread, and I told it in great detail to a friend who had just found out she was having a boy (he is intact!). If I tried to re-tell the story now, I would cause myself a severe anxiety attack. I'm not kidding. I was almost as traumatized as my baby. Let it suffice to say that he was in the ER at 13 days old and he is lucky to still have his penis. Eight years later, he never thinks about what he is missing. I think about it often, and have to find a way to keep from crying. Both of my boys know I made a mistake in altering them. I have apologized to both of them more than once. Ds2 even told his step-mother to leave his brother's penis alone while she was pg with him (the little brother). She's pg with another boy, due any day, and my ds is so upset to know that this baby will be cut, too.

Anyway, we do the best we can with the information we have a that time. I didn't get a PC and find MDC until I had already cut two boys. Would I do it again? Of course not. When I was 17/18yo and a single mother and completely in over my head and didn't know how to handle a crying infant, I nursed my son in his sling while driving my car. By the time I had ds2, I knew better, so he never came out of his carseat while the car was moving. And you know what? I've since learned (here on MDC) that it's safer to keep a baby RFing for as long as possible, so if I ever had another child, they would RF for probably 3 or 4 years. When you know better, you do better. I will do better next time.

You know better now, so do better.







While I don't think my boys have had any major complications, I know now that my exdh does. As I learned more, I began to realize that he has skin bridges, loss of pleasure sensation, and painful scar tissue. So far, his son seems to have escaped all that.

A friend of mine (who asked for her ds to be circ'ed his first night out of the womb before his Jamaican father arrived from out of town to object) has a ds with severe adhesions. I changed his diaper many times as a baby and the foreskin has reattached to the glans, but not evenly. The skin is lumpy and there are spots that didn't attach, so when he would have a really bad liquidy BM poop, it would go up under the skin where the gaps where and there was no way to get it out. He either did not produce smegma, or didn't produce enough, so his body was not able to flush out the poop. If an intact boy got a teeny bit of poop in the os, the body would flush it out naturally. I don't want to tell you the method recommended to clean this little boy.

Another friend of mine has an almost 2yo ds. She struggled with the decision right up until the moment he was born. This mama had so much going against her. On top of mental illness and a really bad rift between her and her family, she began losing her sight in her 3rd trimester. She had to have a csec at 36 wks so that she could have a tumor removed from her brain and start chemotherapy. Because of the chemo, she was only able to nurse for a few days. She was separated from her little man most of his 1st month or 2 of life. Through all of this, it would have so easy to not give a single thought to circumcision, but she made the choice to keep him intact. The hospital staff was unaccustomed to this choice, a nurse actually went to my friend's parents to see if they would authorize the surgery. Thank goodness they refused to dishonor their daughter's wishes! The baby has some issues possibly due to his iatrogenic prematurity. He has poor vision, very bad proprioceptive processing, and falls all the time. He is the ER constantly for head trauma. He once had a seizure and stopped breathing for close to 4 minutes. He spends more time in the hospital than a doctor or nurse. But not once in his 2 years has he had a single issue with his foreskin.

Again, I think it is very brave of you to put yourself out there. You've got nothing but love coming from me, but I do think that, given the fact that you now know how terrible circ is, there would be no excuse for you to do it again. Just keep learning all you can about both sides of the issue. I'm sure you will make the right choice in the end. GL!


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

I think one of the things that helped me "get" all this was knowing that my sons won't always be my babies, and that the organ they use to pee with will one day be a very important sexual organ for them.

It is my job as a mother to take my children as they are, to take care of their bodies, respect their bodies and uphold the dignity of their bodies in such a way that I don't allow anyone to violate them in any way unless it is truly a medical necessity and to which there are _no other alternatives_. Like someone else said, I would never cut off any other parts of my children's normal bodies just because something "might" happen. I would no sooner cut off my son's foreskin because he had a slight infection than I would have someone amputate his left pinky toe if he had an infection, and furthermore cut off a foreskin just because he *might* get an infection somewhere in the future.

I will only deal with my sons' penises for a short, short time. So long as they can pee (which is the penis' only job in a child), then I should have no other concern just as I have no other concerns about whether my daughter's labia might become infected, or whether she might develop a yeast infection, or how bad her cramps might be when she reaches puberty (likening this to the normal separation of the foreskin during puberty), etc....if issues happen, treat them, but who preoccupies themselves with these things on children's normal body parts?

My sons will one day grow into men, and THAT's when they will finally use their penises in other ways, and that's when THEY and THEY ALONE should make the decision how their penises look and function. I don't want MY decision causing problems for them with their spouses, or during erections, or whatever. I don't want MY decision hurting their sex lives in any way....and the best way to stay out of it is to leave them be until they can decide for themselves. After all, it is their body, not mine.

I liken it to having breast cancer running rampant in a family and making the decision to remove a baby girl's breast buds just in case something were to happen to her later....but what happens then, when she is an adult? We would have taken so much from her for a reason we thought was so good....but she will, as an adult, have forever lost the chance to appear normal with functioning breasts to fill out a bra and someday nurse her babies.

We shouldn't forget that what we decide now isn't just a decision made for "Little Baby Boy Jones" but someday will be a decision we made for "Mr. Man Jones, Husband and Father."


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## dmpmercury (Mar 31, 2008)

If someone has chronic UTIs which is very rare in males it is actually an issue with the tract itself and not caused by cicrcumcim. UTIs are very rare in males and the one study that shows they are more common was not done very well and still isn't showing that infections are very common. The are 6 times less common in males than in females even using statistics from the flawed study. There are plenty of women with chronic infections. The discharge instructions for a lot of the babies in the study said to retract and clean with soap. Doing that will increase the chance of introducing infections. Back in the day a lot of people were given advice to retract before a boy is retractable and clean underneath and that can cause issues. Plus we are quick to cut. We would not do that to a girl with frequent infections. In finland the rate of needing one later in life where men are intact and know how to care for it and they don't reccomend it as a first resort the rate is 1 in every 17,000 men need one later in life.

It is very simple to clean and take care of. You do nothing. You just wipe it off. It isn't easy to forcefully retract. It is much harder to take care of the wound left with circumcism and to deal with possible adhesions.

The foreskin has a purpose. It has more nerve endings than the rest of the penis, is most of the penis skin system. The foreskin provideds a gentle gliding action so no hard ramming is needed and it proivdes lubrication. With out it more pressure and ramming is needed and it is harder to maintain an eraction. The foreskin acts like and eyelid and keeps the glands moist. Without the protective covering the glands hardens and becomes desensitised. Dealing with pain dryness and bleeding is unique to female partners of cicrumcised men. Circumcising makes it harder to achieve orgasm from vaginal penetration which is why so many women can't.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

A pro-circ friend mentioned that uncirc'd men have a higher instance of penile cancer and giving women infections. This sounds farfetched to me...


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Circumcised men get penile cancer, too, usually along the scar line....and actually, more men die every year from breast cancer than they do from penile cancer.

Either way, it's a adult issue, not an issue for a child. In other words, if a man feels he doesn't want to risk penile cancer, then he can opt for circ. Most don't - it would be like hearing of men opting for mastectomies so they don't get breast cancer, you know? It's such a tiny, tiny, miniscule risk, and usually has other factors involved....being promiscuous, uncleanliness, smoking, etc.


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## dmpmercury (Mar 31, 2008)

The risk of penile cancer is slim. There are just as many boys dying from cicrumcism and there are from penile cancer that is how rare it is. Other forms of cancer are much more common. Sexual activitiy and smoking are also risk factors for penile cancer and bigger ones than circumcism status. It is only associated with men with phimosis and even a small percentage of them at that. The AAP even issues statements that penile cancer is not a risk and not a reason to circumcise.

I don't think more women are getting infections in countries where they don't circumcise.


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## MyBoysBlue (Apr 27, 2007)

My husband is intact and I've had a few UTI's but that was before I started peeing after sex. I haven't had one since and I've never had a yeast infection in my life even while pregnant. I must be resistant or something. I don't know about all these infections intact men are giving women. Do you know what kind of infections they are talking about, or is it just a general infection?

As for Penile Cancer
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/

Oh and just because it's come up. My intact boys are fine and doing well no problems. LOL


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Some links I hope you find helpful.

http://www.cancer.org/Cancer/PenileC...cer-prevention

Quote:

In the past, circumcision has been suggested as a way to prevent penile cancer. This was based on studies that reported much lower penile cancer rates among circumcised men than among uncircumcised men. But most researchers now believe those studies were flawed because they failed to consider other risk factors, such as smoking, personal hygiene, and the number of sexual partners.
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/

Quote:

Gellis (1978) said there are more deaths from circumcision than from cancer of the penis.

Quote:

Boczko et al found numerous reports of penile cancer in circumcised men, thus conclusively disproving Wolbarst's false claims of protection from penile cancer by circumcision.
In "Circumcision: An American Health Fallacy," Edward Wallerstein writes "If infant circumcision reduces penile cancer we could expect to see proportionately less penile cancer in circumcising nations as compared to non-circumcising ones. No such difference is found."

Quote:

established quite clearly that there was little evidence to support a relationship between lack of circumcision and penile cancer, cervical cancer, or cancer of the prostate in 1970 but he was unable to identify the causative agent at that time, while Leitch did the same in Australia.
UTI myth: http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/

Quote:

Thus, 99.9% of the circumcised infants would not experience a UTI, whereas 99.0% of the uncircumcised group would not have a UTI. Given a complication rate of 0.2%
http://www.nocirc.org/statements/breastfeeding.php (On the side in the orange shaded area)

Quote:

In fact, UTI's are so rare in any case that, using Wiswell's data, 50 to 100 healthy boys would have to be circumcised in order to prevent a UTI from developing in only one patient. (Using more recent data from a better-controlled study, the number of unnecessary operations needed to prevent one hospital admission for UTI would jump to 195.
FORESKINS: Seek Elsewhere for Infants' Urinary Tract Infections
http://www.cirp.org/news/1997.12.22_PhysiciansWeekly/

[/quote]UTI Neonatal circumcision revisited
http://www.cps.ca/english/statements...ION%20OF%20UTI

Quote:

Thus, 99.9% of the circumcised infants would not experience a UTI, whereas 99.0% of the uncircumcised group would not have a UTI. Given a complication rate of 0.2%
The incidence of Geniturinary abnormalities in circumcised and uncircumcised presenting with an initial urinary tract infection by 6 months of age
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/mueller/

FWIW the circ penis as well as intact both can get yeast infections they are called jock itch and yes they can pass them onto use and we can pass them onto them.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anastasiya* 
I think one of the things that helped me "get" all this was knowing that my sons won't always be my babies, and that the organ they use to pee with will one day be a very important sexual organ for them.

It is my job as a mother to take my children as they are, to take care of their bodies, respect their bodies and uphold the dignity of their bodies in such a way that I don't allow anyone to violate them in any way unless it is truly a medical necessity and to which there are _no other alternatives_. Like someone else said, I would never cut off any other parts of my children's normal bodies just because something "might" happen. I would no sooner cut off my son's foreskin because he had a slight infection than I would have someone amputate his left pinky toe if he had an infection, and furthermore cut off a foreskin just because he *might* get an infection somewhere in the future.

I will only deal with my sons' penises for a short, short time. So long as they can pee (which is the penis' only job in a child), then I should have no other concern just as I have no other concerns about whether my daughter's labia might become infected, or whether she might develop a yeast infection, or how bad her cramps might be when she reaches puberty (likening this to the normal separation of the foreskin during puberty), etc....if issues happen, treat them, but who preoccupies themselves with these things on children's normal body parts?

My sons will one day grow into men, and THAT's when they will finally use their penises in other ways, and that's when THEY and THEY ALONE should make the decision how their penises look and function. I don't want MY decision causing problems for them with their spouses, or during erections, or whatever. I don't want MY decision hurting their sex lives in any way....and the best way to stay out of it is to leave them be until they can decide for themselves. After all, it is their body, not mine.

I liken it to having breast cancer running rampant in a family and making the decision to remove a baby girl's breast buds just in case something were to happen to her later....but what happens then, when she is an adult? We would have taken so much from her for a reason we thought was so good....but she will, as an adult, have forever lost the chance to appear normal with functioning breasts to fill out a bra and someday nurse her babies.

We shouldn't forget that what we decide now isn't just a decision made for "Little Baby Boy Jones" but someday will be a decision we made for "Mr. Man Jones, Husband and Father."

Exactly. My sons' bodies do not belong to me and it is not my decision to make. I will not live with the consequences - they will. So it is their choice, not mine.

The idea that the foreskin is dangerous is a cultural myth... my boys have never had a single problem with their intact penises. If someday they get an infection, then we'll just get them the appropriate medicine... I have had several infections in my bladder or genitals and all were treatable with simple medicines. The only problems I ever hear about WRT foreskins are the poor boys with circ complications... if you want to really be freaked out, read some non-MDC forums - dealing with a circ'ed penis appears to be really difficult.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyBoysBlue* 
My husband is intact and I've had a few UTI's but that was before I started peeing after sex. I haven't had one since and I've never had a yeast infection in my life even while pregnant. I must be resistant or something. I don't know about all these infections intact men are giving women. Do you know what kind of infections they are talking about, or is it just a general infection?


I've never thought about this, but I have been with my intact DH for 13 years, and have never had a UTI or yeast infection in my life. And I don't even pee after DTD.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Everyone else has covered the logical points as to why you shouldn't do it, so I want to cover an emotional one.

I have 2 boys. They are 17 1/2 and 9 1/2. They are intact, and we have NEVER had a problem, despite my oldest son being forcibly retracted as a baby, to the point that his foreskin split down the side. We follow the advice in this forum, and LEAVE IT ALONE. No one touches the foreskin but the boy who owns the penis.

I also have intact FIL, who has had issues due to poor advice given during his youth, that he continues to follow, but he is still intact.

My grandfather was intact, and never had an issue. His MD told me that, after my grandfather had passed, and I was trying to decide what was best for my son, and getting a TON of pressure from people that never did any research.

My friend (who is also on MDC) has 2 boys, that are 6 and 8, and they are intact. They have never had a problem.

I have another friend who is also on MDC, who has 3 boys ages 11, 7, and 2. They are intact, and have never had a problem.

All 3 of us have circed DHs, and all 3 have issues of varying sorts.

Just remember that you can't make the decision for your son based on people you know, because the reality is, if you had a different group of friends, you might see a whole different set of trends!

And honestly, your son will be his own person, and might have an entirely different experience than anyone else you know.

Leaving your son intact gives him 2 options- remain intact, or get circed if he wants to, or if there is a problem.

Circing him gives him 1 choice, and it is irreversible. Even restoration doesn't bring back the nerve endings and connections he has lost.

Good luck!


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Honestly, the advice the boys with UTIs and infections got are well, the crappiest advice ever. If you get a UTI, drink cranberry juice and if that doesn't work, get some antibiotics (there are plenty of other options, too, but all of them are no real big deal). If they get infections, well, they need to start being healthier, eating probiotics and probably an antibiotic to stop it all, not surgery (how ridiculous, the infection isn't actually in the foreskin, you know!!).

I am Canadian and as a teen/young adult, I thought only Jewish boys were circumcised, because well, none of my 15 or so boyfriends had been circumcised. They all had natural and intact penises.

I often tell circumcised men who think circumcision is somehow better or necessary that I know way more about intact penises than they do, because I have actually hmmm.... experienced some of them, and chances are, they have not. My many intact boyfriends (and family members) never had issues with infections or UTIs and if any of them had any (just like my girl friends), they went to a doctor and got a prescription, usually. Voila, taken care of.

I always laugh when people talk about how hard it is for teenage boys to take care of intact penises....ummm, yeah, it is so hard to convince a teenage boy to pull his foreskin back in the shower... ("it feels good, oh darnit!", I am sure he says each time...).

The risk of circumcising is horrendously high. There is no risk of keeping a boy intact, like, zero risk. Sex is better for both a man and a woman when a man is intact. Men like to keep their penises clean, especially if requested to do so by their partner and it's also incredibly easy to do so.

I always feel sad when mothers and soon-to-be mothers have no experience with intact penises, because really, you are sort of missing out.









Your son WILL one day thank you and your husband if you leave him intact. He will not thank you if he is circumcised.


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## MommytoB (Jan 18, 2006)

My son is 6 no problems here his dad whose my ex 43 yrs old no problems in with him or his polish relatives .

Many of the posts of foreskin worries or thinking of possibe problems is because parents are just learning of the foreskin especially if you & your hubby only been around circ'ed families as in growing up in one .

To us many of us could say our first ds is the first foreskin we ever saw and dealt with just imagine with my mom never have dealt with a foreskin until she became a grandma in her 50's and she doesn't act as foreskin as being a big deal anymore or it being a weird thing because she got used to it being just another part of the body .

So when a suppose or assumed foreskin problem comes up is when the many worry posts come out but in reality it's just a normal foreskin happening but some parents may be so worried of a normalness that they will take them to a doctor who more likely may know less of a foreskin functions than those of mothers who have seen the foreskin natural occurences happen .

Believe me I could have been one of those freaked out mom's when my boy was going through a normal action of foreskin starting to seperate because it's called seperation trauma .

Seperation trauma is something that many parents are just learning about and it can be a very scary sight to see if your unaware of what is actually happening so I thank TCAC to help me be aware of the seperation trauma signs so then I knew even though I knew the signs I was still freaked out about it but just did the Wait & See it went away within 24 hrs .

So once you get around to be around foreskin you will become able to know about it and it will be treated like just another part of the body .

Just like how the overseas are treating foreskins as no big deal because they already know about them so they don't have to learn about them because they never lost their knowledge on it while many of us in USA our families used to know about foreskin because many our ancestors immigrated from Overseas like Italy, Ireland, Germany but lost it once when the loss of foreskin was taken from our boys from doctors without even asking parents so parents more likely saw their son's with no foreskin so the past families lost the knowledge of foreskin along with the recent family so now we are gaining our families knowledge back because once foreskin is in the family it will continue to a family of boys with foreskin plus there more likely will be zero chance of circ talks ever coming up.


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## lurve (May 5, 2006)

my DD was born 3.5 years ago and if she had been a boy she could have been circ'd (for religious reasons). My DS was born four months ago and he is intact. Life Is A Journey. We learn and live and live and learn. My son will be "different" from his dad. But at the same time my daughter won't have the same yoni I have (cause she ripped my labia half off during birth. ha, ha!).

And as far as problems with intact men - a little antidote if you will...My mom is a doctor. She is really angry with my for not circ'ing cause she feels it is a medical necessity. When she sees men that are intact and have some sort of "problem" down there, she recommends cirumsising. So remember, a lot of medicine is in the eye of the healer...


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## PlainandTall (May 21, 2010)

There is a group on facebook called "Keeping future sons intact" that is a place of support for parents who have circumcised in the past but have changed their mind.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

I Facebooked (is that a verb now?) DH's uncle and asked about the one son that I was told isn't circ'd. Apparently, THE UNCLE isn't circ'd and neither of the sons he had are circ'd. No problems at all from any of them. The story about the UTI? Well, his ex-wife is a bit...off...and quite the storyteller.

I said something to DH again and he said, "*I* don't care. I lean toward doing it because I had it done and have no complaints. But, you're the mama and you're doing the research so I will go along with what you decide."







Isn't he great?


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## wanderinggypsy (Jul 26, 2005)

Just wanted to add that I have three sons. They are all blessedly intact and not one of them has EVER had any kind of a problem. Neither has their intact father. In fact, I have several friends with intact little boys and none of them have ever to my knowledge had a problem. You are not choosing between circ or a lifetime of ailments. You are choosing between a boy's body as nature intended it or a boy's body mutilated at the most critical time for bonding and emotional development.

As for all those freaky posts you have seen on here, it's just because this is the place for people to come if they have questions. And my bet would be that a great many of those "boils" and things are diaper rash. Which can happen to a circ or intact baby. And UTI's can happen to any baby as well, especially if there is an underlying problem with the kidneys.

Don't be motivated by fear. Let your heart guide you.


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## dianakaye (Mar 20, 2009)

I just wanted you to know that this thread has been in my thoughts today. I don't think it's a coincidence that I found out today a close family friend is intact (I hardly ever meet intact men, or at least I don't know they're intact). We had a good conversation and I asked a few questions. He let me know that he's never had any issues, never been teased, never been self-conscious. He's totally happy with himself. His dad and brother were both circ'd, so he was the only intact boy in his family, but he was glad to be intact. I think that most intact men are happy to be intact. Plus, if they're not happy with their status, they can chose to get circ'd. Restoration, on the other hand, doesn't completely give back all that was lost (although sometimes I hint to my husband I wish he would).

Every time I see my son naked I am so grateful that my instincts told me to leave his penis alone. We were just minutes away from going to the doctor to have it done when I gave him a diaper change and had an "a-ha" moment that his penis was perfect and didn't need alteration. He's never had a problem (21 months) and I am so happy that I let him make this decision for himself. I'm not against circumcision, I just think that it should should be my son's decision for himself as an adult.

There is a reason why you have hesitations about circumcising your son. I would listen to those hesitations and not worry about the culturally ingrained fears about him being intact. Chances are he won't have problems and he'll be glad he's intact.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wanderinggypsy* 
As for all those freaky posts you have seen on here, it's just because this is the place for people to come if they have questions. And my bet would be that a great many of those "boils" and things are diaper rash. Which can happen to a circ or intact baby. And UTI's can happen to any baby as well, especially if there is an underlying problem with the kidneys.

True. My DS recently had blisters on the head of his penis...we still didn't figure out from where.


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## tammylsmith (Jul 11, 2008)

Wow, AFWife, it's so awesome that your dh is willing to work with you on it already. That makes it so much easier for you to just focus on finding the information. Good for him


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## Night_Nurse (Nov 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
... Isn't he great?

Yes, he sure is!


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## elanorh (Feb 1, 2006)

I only have two daughters; all the boys on either side of my family are circumcised. Dh and I decided before dd1 was born that if we had a son, we would leave him intact. We didn't research it; we simply figured that if we're born with it, it serves a purpose. We asked our Ped what she thought about circumcision and she went OFF about how it's not recommended for any medical reasons, she doesn't recommend it, etc. etc. etc. So that moved us from "Well there doesn't seem to be a reason to do it," to "NOT doing it."

Then we had two daughters, so it has been a moot point so far.









A few years ago I started lurking here and learning more about circumcision. And we have discovered that some of the intimacy issues that dh and I have, are a result of his infant circumcision. I know that he was circ'd because it was practically mandatory at the time (early 70's) - his parents were told it must be done, best for baby, etc. I don't blame them. But it makes me sad, and I grieved a lot for my husband and what's been taken from him (and then later, from us as a couple). There are plenty of circ'd men who are fine (and whose wives are fine with things too) but not all circs are equal, and an infant circumcision impacts an adult male's anatomy, and by extension, his sexual relationship with his partner.







Knowing what has caused our problems has allowed us to find more creative ways around them, but the problems are still there. It was at least a relief to know how to address things, though.

One thing to consider, in terms of cleanliness - I grew up on a ranch and around animals. The "Clean" argument is completely and utterly bogus. If it weren't, we would be circumcising all the bulls, stallions, prize dogs, etc. Maybe even the steers and geldings! But we're not, and if anyone asked a vet to do something like that, the vet would swallow his/her tongue. If we, with our opposable thumbs, are less capable of keeping a penis adequately clean and require circumcision, yet dogs and pigs and etc. don't need one - there's something wrong with the picture.









Good luck with your decision - it sounds like your MIL will be at least somewhat supportive, which is HUGE.







I think family puts a tremendous amount of pressure on parents in this decision - and if your dh's mother can see the logic in remaining intact, that's a LOT less pressure while you are making (and living with) the decision to keep your ds intact.

(Just to add, others have already been more eloquent than I will be about the concern about a circumcised older brother, intact younger brother issue -- but again, we aren't raising kids to be identical, and we make mistakes or learn differently and therefore do differently with our subsequent kiddos. Our first dd had severe infant allergies and reflux; it took us months to figure it out and get it under control. We knew what we were doing with dd2, who also had allergies; but we believe she had less, as a result of us knowing more about how to manage them etc.). You will be teaching your sons a powerful lesson -- that we do the best we can with the information we have, and that it's OK to change your mind, get new information, etc.


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## billikengirl (Sep 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
I said something to DH again and he said, "*I* don't care. I lean toward doing it because I had it done and have no complaints. _But, you're the mama and you're doing the research so I will go along with what you decide._"







Isn't he great?

FABULOUS!


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tammylsmith* 
Wow, AFWife, it's so awesome that your dh is willing to work with you on it already. That makes it so much easier for you to just focus on finding the information. Good for him









I should add that this doesn't mean the discussion is over! It means that he's open for discussion and that circ doesn't mean the end of our marriage or a huge fight. He wants to make sure I've done the research on both sides so we can discuss it logically.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
Okay, I'm pregnant again and we dont' know the sex yet *so this whole post could end up moot*...

WHY is it so? Think about this statement, think what you really had said...just THINK and you will see...you will see circ for what it REALLY IS: UNCONCENTED GENITAL CUTTING ON A MINOR. Girls have foreskins (clitoral hoods) just as well. Just because our culture accepted genital cutting on boys while some other cultures do the same to girls does not make this practice any different. It is what it is, whether done on a male or a female (and for the record, some forms of female genital cutting are less severe that male genital cutting we do to our boys).
So if you think that this wouldn't be a good idea to do to your baby-girl, then it is definitely not a good idea to do to your baby-boy.

HUGS.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

For what it worth, I'm originally from Russia where circ is unheard of for both genders. And when it comes to things like yeast and UTI it's always considered like something that pretty much only women have because it is SO rare in guys (and 99.9% of men are intact, of couse...same with Europe, Asia and most of the world).


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## texmati (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
I thought about this in the shower...if I hadn't had a mom that breastfed me until 14mo the BFing forum would have scared me off because it's full of moms asking for advice about infection and pain and cracks and AAAHHHH... Like someone said in another thread: No one comes in and posts "My son's penis is GREAT today." No one comes into the BFing forum and does weekly updates about how well it's going.

Also keep in mind that posts about cut boys go in health and healing, not in this forum, so it ends up looking really unbalanced. I wish they would change it so that intact issues could be in H&H as well.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 

...when he came back hiccuping from the crying I felt bad. When the dressing came off and I SAW the raw wound I broke down and sobbed.

Be kind to yourself. Save yourself this.


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

There is a thread near the top of the page where people whose sons have never had any issues or problems have posted. My intact son is 7 and has never had any issues (and he plays in the creek and in mud and sand all the time and does not like to bathe that much).

Two of my co-workers were discussing how they have to pull back their circumcised sons' remaining foreskin every day (their sons are 18 months) so it doesn't re-adhere. I personally would feel uncomfortable doing that--I feel like it's his private part and not for me to cut off or pull back or mess with. I thought to myself, "Wow, hard to believe people actually think circumcised boys are easier to take care of, considering I've never had to do anything with my intact son's privates."

Good luck.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
This. There's no way to know how your first ds will feel about it when he's older, but there's no reason for people to be so nasty about it. What's done is done. I feel sorry for your ds (the skin bridges) and for you, having that experience. But, as a mother of four, I can tell you that making a mistake - of any kind - with one child doesn't mean I (or you) have to repeat that mistake with every other child, just to keep it "even". I just explain "well, at the time/in those circumstances/whatever, that was the best I could do, and now/in these circumstances/whatever, _this_ is the best I can do".









Exactly...This is how I feel when thinking about my next son.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Pickle* 
Two of my co-workers were discussing how they have to pull back their circumcised sons' remaining foreskin every day (their sons are 18 months) so it doesn't re-adhere. I personally would feel uncomfortable doing that--I feel like it's his private part and not for me to cut off or pull back or mess with. I thought to myself, "Wow, hard to believe people actually think circumcised boys are easier to take care of, considering I've never had to do anything with my intact son's privates."

Good luck.

This...I did that with my oldest. He was circ'd and I pulled the skin down every day because it kept re-adhering. So stupid. So sad. But it's what my doctor told me to do. *sighs* Live and learn...sadly.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

In the Muslim world, circumcision is generally done between two and five. That's around one billion people. So you certainly would not be alone if you decided to wait until later.

Good luck!


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## tammylsmith (Jul 11, 2008)

"I should add that this doesn't mean the discussion is over! It means that he's open for discussion and that circ doesn't mean the end of our marriage or a huge fight. He wants to make sure I've done the research on both sides so we can discuss it logically."

I think it's fantastic that you can go about this with research though. I had to get past the stubborn "I have a penis, end of argument" argument. At least you can get past that knee-jerk reaction to the real information. That is where you and dh can do your best decision making









Good luck to you! Also, it's never a moot point, because you now have information that might be helpful to other moms too, as they mull over their decisions for future sons. Information is always a good thing when it comes to making any decision


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## buckeyedoc (Nov 9, 2006)

FWIW, my sons are intact and have never had problems. I believe most problems come from improper care, namely forced retraction of the foreskin in young boys when it is still mostly fused to the penis. I don't think it's a big deal for an older boy or man to rinse off in the shower every day. It seems to be a uniquely American rumor that foreskins are really difficult to deal with and require circumcision later in life.


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## serendipity22 (Sep 19, 2006)

AFWife, good point about dealing with things when they happen. What doesn't everyone think like that?

Circing to prevent future problems is like chopping down your favourite tree because it 'might' catch a tree disease in the future. Or having your cat put down in case it gets sick in the future.

Quote:

Apparently he had chronic UTIs as a child and the ped said it was because he wasn't circ'd.
The ped has no idea what they are talking about.

Quote:

One of DH's coworkers dated a guy in college that wasn't circ'd and she said that he had CONSTANT infections and that's why she had all of her boys done.
If this story is true (and it may not be as in 'chinese whispers'.) there is a good chance it was iatrogenic: his foreskin was prematurely retracted by one or more adults (doctors, nurses, parents etc.) with who knows what on their fingers.

Infections don't happen by themselves.


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## texmati (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *serendipity22* 
AFWife, good point about dealing with things when they happen. What doesn't everyone think like that?

Circing to prevent future problems is like chopping down your favourite tree because it 'might' catch a tree disease in the future. Or having your cat put down in case it gets sick in the future.

My pediatrician compared it to cutting of a baby girls breasts to prevent her getting breast cancer.


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## dmpmercury (Mar 31, 2008)

Quote:

If this story is true (and it may not be as in 'chinese whispers'.) there is a good chance it was iatrogenic: his foreskin was prematurely retracted by one or more adults (doctors, nurses, parents etc.) with who knows what on their fingers.

Infections don't happen by themselves.
There is also some evidence that infections can burrow deep in the tubes and you can get the same infection over and over. This obviously has nothing to do with foreskin and you need to treat it by going into the tubes. It crazy how many doctors think that circumcision is the best way to deal with reoccuring infections.


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## LEmama (Nov 21, 2001)

Just had to chime in and let you know that I feel for you and that I know how tough this decision must be. My husband and I really struggled with it when our first child was born 15 years ago. Also, I have to say that all four of are sons are not circumcized and have never had even the slightest problem. Ultimately, what sealed the decision for us was the simple fact that the penis has a foreskin by design and for a reason. Kind of like eyes have eyelids. It made sense to us to just let it be. Just remember that both of your kids will be fine, whatever you decide. All we can do as parents is make the best choices we can in the moment. I admire you for being so thoughtful, thorough, and open in your descision-making. Best wishes and hugs to you, mama.


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## KaylaBeanie (Jan 27, 2009)

Think of it this way...what is the worst that can happen if you leave your son intact? You know never to retract him or let anyone retract him. That's it. No other care. Nothing bad can happen to him as a result of being intact. There is a tiny, miniscule chance (I believe with proper care, the rate is 1 in 10,000) that your son will legitimately need or want to be circumcised in his lifetime. Other than that...nothing. His penis will be fully functional, unscarred, he risks no wound infection, no death.

Now, what's the worst that can happen to a circ'd son? If you're lucky (or rather, if he's lucky), he will receive proper anesthesia, have a loose circ, minimal bleeding, no adhesions, no infection and he will escape the small number of babies who die. There are a lot of variables there, a lot of things that need to go right.

The fact that circumcision kills over 200 boys a year in the US is more than enough reason to make me an intactivist. There is no risk to intactness. There is significant risk to circumcision. Your first son managed to get through his circumcision without any extra complications it would seem, but there's no guarantee that your second son will. It all comes down to what you can live with. My ex had long term complications from his circumcision that most certainly affected me. I could live with my son being the 1 in 10,000 boys who legitimately wanted or needed to be circumcised. I could never live with myself if I chose to get him cut and he suffered serious complications or died.

ETA: The intact men I know are blissfully happy with their foreskins, regard them as the best part of their penis, and would sooner cut off their arm than part with it.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Another thought I had this morning while getting the kids ready for school.

What is the worst thing that could happen with either:


If left intact he could one day develop an infection either yeast or bacterial which would need to be treated with either abx or a yeast med.
If circed then he could actually loose his life.
The odds of the first one happening are higher than the second, for some boys, I'd take the infection any day.

The only true reasons for a required circ are frostbite, gangrene, cancer and damage that cant be repaired otherwise. And any of those could happen to the circed penis as well and would also require removing part or all of the circed penis. Obviously all of those are very unlikely though.


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dmpmercury* 
There is also some evidence that infections can burrow deep in the tubes and you can get the same infection over and over. This obviously has nothing to do with foreskin and you need to treat it by going into the tubes. It crazy how many doctors think that circumcision is the best way to deal with reoccuring infections.

When I first became sexually active with my DH (who is circ'd), I kept getting yeast infections. Every month or so for a couple of YEARS. It was suggested to me by my friends that DH could be reinfecting me, so I talked to my doctor and she gave me a cream for both of us to use, even though it didn't make sense to us because there was no physical sign of infection on him and I knew that it had to be coming internally if it was coming from him--an external cream wouldn't help. So I sent him to his doctor, who told him in no uncertain terms, "It can't be coming from you. You're circumcised." No examination or sample or culture or anything necessary. Desperate, I started collecting Diflucan pills because my doctor had written me a renewable prescription so I wouldn't have to see her every month. I self-medicated with an aggressive treatment for myself (1/day for a week) and I gave some to DH (1/week for a month). I have not had another yeast infection since and it has been 5 years, including a pregnancy.


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

My ds is circ'd - when he was born nearly 8 years ago it was one of the few things I didn't research and just did because I thought it's what you do. And it was every bit as awful and painful as the videos you can find online - I could hear him screaming down the hall and when they brought him back to me he was in a semi-coma for a day or two. He wouldn't nurse, and when I asked the LC what was wrong - she said, "Did you have him circ'd? That's what happens to so many little boys afterwards" I felt like complete crap, still do (although I've had to let it go and move on) and I WILL NEVER put another child of mine through that again. We are having another little boy in October, and he will be intact. When you know better, you do better - and the best I can do now is learn from my mistake with ds, and not put another boy through that.

Anyway, my circ'd almost 8 year old has had repeat UTIs.







Enough that we had to have the urine reflux test done earlier this year. So while I've never posted about it anywhere, the circ'd penis can have issues too.


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## texmati (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mistymama* 
My ds is circ'd - when he was born nearly 8 years ago it was one of the few things I didn't research and just did because I thought it's what you do. And it was every bit as awful and painful as the videos you can find online - I could hear him screaming down the hall and when they brought him back to me he was in a semi-coma for a day or two. He wouldn't nurse, and when I asked the LC what was wrong - she said, "Did you have him circ'd? That's what happens to so many little boys afterwards" I felt like complete crap, still do (although I've had to let it go and move on) and I WILL NEVER put another child of mine through that again. We are having another little boy in October, and he will be intact. When you know better, you do better - and the best I can do now is learn from my mistake with ds, and not put another boy through that.

Anyway, my circ'd almost 8 year old has had repeat UTIs.







Enough that we had to have the urine reflux test done earlier this year. So while I've never posted about it anywhere, the circ'd penis can have issues too.









s Thank you for posting your story.


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## dmpmercury (Mar 31, 2008)

Quote:

When I first became sexually active with my DH (who is circ'd), I kept getting yeast infections. Every month or so for a couple of YEARS. It was suggested to me by my friends that DH could be reinfecting me, so I talked to my doctor and she gave me a cream for both of us to use, even though it didn't make sense to us because there was no physical sign of infection on him and I knew that it had to be coming internally if it was coming from him--an external cream wouldn't help. So I sent him to his doctor, who told him in no uncertain terms, "It can't be coming from you. You're circumcised."
I just heard someone claim the opposite and said that she circumcised her son because she kept getting yeast infections from one of her intact partners. I explained how it can burrow or was probably a problem with the urinary tract and that it wasn't the circumcision but no one believed me. I knew this could happen with a circumcised guy too and that the problem was they were just treating with topical antibiotics and not exploring further. They usually explore with females that get re occurent infections but with guys they just assume wrongly that only the foreskin would cause that problem.


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## knitted_in_the_wom (May 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Baby~Braatens~Mama* 
... but even in this anti-circ board most of the posts are desperate mothers worried about forced retraction, uti's, nameless boils and cysts, bleeding and infections. All uncirc'd boys, and I can't help but question myself on the morality of the possibility of putting my child through years of pain until he is old enough to tell me that he would like a circumsision... Not saying that every uncirc'd kid has problems. But the number of stories is overwhelming for this first time mom.

Well...you do realize that only the moms having problems really have anything to write about, right? I have two intact boys (ages 6 & 8), and have never had problems with them. They haven't had "years of pain," rather they've had "years of fun" playing with their foreskins.

On the flip side, one of my girl friends who is adamently pro-circ has a son with a buried penis who had to have surgery for meateal stenosis. I dated a guy who had the same surgery, and had a friend years ago whose son also needed surgery for that. I have no clue how many boys that I know had similar surgery, and I just never heard about it. The only boys I know who have had urinary tract infections (a very small number) were circumcised.


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## knitted_in_the_wom (May 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NSmomtobe* 
So I sent him to his doctor, who told him in no uncertain terms, "It can't be coming from you. You're circumcised." No examination or sample or culture or anything necessary.

Ummm...yeah. I hope you educated that doctor about what you did that cleared up your infection?

My husband is very much circed (born in the early 60's--so its a tight one), and he suffered from recurrent yeast infections about 2 years ago. I questioned whether he could pass it to me, and he said the doctor said that he couldn't because it wasn't on his penis--it was in his crack. LOL. I was nervous about it...but I never did get a yeast infection from him.


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## knitted_in_the_wom (May 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverSky* 
Men like to keep their penises clean, especially if requested to do so by their partner and it's also incredibly easy to do so.

Might I also say here that circumcision does not necessarily make a penis clean and odor free? I don't have any experience with an intact penis (







) , but I've told my husband that if he wants any particular activities...he needs to make sure he washes off right before.


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## knitted_in_the_wom (May 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Pickle* 
Two of my co-workers were discussing how they have to pull back their circumcised sons' remaining foreskin every day (their sons are 18 months) so it doesn't re-adhere. I personally would feel uncomfortable doing that--I feel like it's his private part and not for me to cut off or pull back or mess with.

Nearly from birth my boys were VERY protective of their penises. I could barely wipe poo off of them during diaper changes--they would be batting my hand away! I thought it was so funny.


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## MandyB (Oct 9, 2006)

Haven't had a chance to read any of the other replies yet, but just wanted to mention that I have SO been in your shoes! We circumsized our first son, but after actually doing all of the circ research the 2nd time around, I just couldn't justify circ'ing my next baby boy.

One thing I was really worried about, and actually felt guilty about, was how to explain it to my older son. Why is he circ'd and not his brother. Also, how to explain to my youngest son why he ISN'T circ'd, but his daddy and brother ARE. Well, my youngest son is only 10 months old, but my 8 yr old has never once noticed that HE is circ'd and his brother is NOT! I was so surprised that he has never questioned it or noticed!


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Baby~Braatens~Mama* 







I am going through this same emotional heartbreak, though I have not had a child yet. Our babe is a boy and I have been going back and forth through the positives and negatives of both. I absolutely hate to bring my child ANY pain, especially if it is unnecessary... but even in this anti-circ board most of the posts are desperate mothers worried about forced retraction, uti's, nameless boils and cysts, bleeding and infections. All uncirc'd boys, and I can't help but question myself on the morality of the possibility of putting my child through years of pain until he is old enough to tell me that he would like a circumsision... Not saying that every uncirc'd kid has problems. But the number of stories is overwhelming for this first time mom.

Those worries are all a direct result of living in a circ culture where we have intact ignorant caregivers that are giving out inaccurate info and parents are often the first generation returning to intactness. The normality of intactness won't come without people making the decision to leave their children as they were born. Circing because we live in a circ culture just perpetuates the problem.


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

I have two intact sons and I live in Europe (France).

At 6 weeks old, DS2 came down with a UTI.

We treated it with antibiotics, he's never had a problem since. DS1, at four has never had any issues whatsoever.

And no one, ever, at any point, suggested circ'ing DS2. It's just not that big a deal (thanks to antibiotics!). Really, most of the world doesn't circ and men grow up just fine.

Wishing you peace with whatever you decide.


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## Purple Sage (Apr 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Baby~Braatens~Mama* 







I am going through this same emotional heartbreak, though I have not had a child yet. Our babe is a boy and I have been going back and forth through the positives and negatives of both. I absolutely hate to bring my child ANY pain, especially if it is unnecessary... but even in this anti-circ board most of the posts are desperate mothers worried about forced retraction, uti's, nameless boils and cysts, bleeding and infections. All uncirc'd boys, and I can't help but question myself on the morality of the possibility of putting my child through years of pain until he is old enough to tell me that he would like a circumsision... Not saying that every uncirc'd kid has problems. But the number of stories is overwhelming for this first time mom.

I hardly ever visit this part of MDC. I have one son, and he is intact. He has not had any problems at all whatsoever with his penis (he's almost 4). I think there are a _lot_ of parents on this board with intact sons who've never had an issue and don't come around here for that very reason. I truly hope you don't take your son's choice from him based on the posts on this particular forum.


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## outlier (Sep 29, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Baby~Braatens~Mama* 
I absolutely hate to bring my child ANY pain, especially if it is unnecessary... but even in this anti-circ board most of the posts are desperate mothers worried about forced retraction, uti's, nameless boils and cysts, bleeding and infections. All uncirc'd boys, and I can't help but question myself on the morality of the possibility of putting my child through years of pain until he is old enough to tell me that he would like a circumsision... Not saying that every uncirc'd kid has problems. But the number of stories is overwhelming for this first time mom.

I wanted to point out here that I've noticed many of the desperate mother posts in this forum are from brand new MDC members, people who were probably led here by a friend or a random internet search for what could be going on with their sons. These aren't women who have had the time to look through all the resources here and pick the brains of the very knowledgeable men and women who post in this forum. Some of these women have been told very scary or unhelpful things by medical professionals, and have found this forum in a last-ditch effort to prevent what they suspect is an unnecessary surgery. Really, it's the lucky ones who find this forum.

With pretty much any other problem your child may have, you can ask your family, friends, or pediatrician. Who can you ask in this country IRL when you're worried about a possible problem with an intact son? You can ask men who are almost all circed, women who have little to no experience with foreskin, or a doctor who was likely given a very inadequate education on care and function of the foreskin. I completely understand when you say you feel overwhelmed by the number of scary stories on this forum, but please realize this forum is one of the few places you can go to get this kind of information. You're ahead of the game already because you know you can always come here if you have any questions at all.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
I thought about this in the shower...if I hadn't had a mom that breastfed me until 14mo the BFing forum would have scared me off because it's full of moms asking for advice about infection and pain and cracks and AAAHHHH...

I KNOW! I have many friends and family members who are currently or have successfully breastfed. I'm 100% committed to breastfeeding this little one on the way, and will do whatever I can to make it work. However, all it takes is 5 minutes of looking around on that forum and I seriously start to fear for my boobs and our future bf relationship.









Boy or girl, I'm not one bit worried about this baby's foreskin. When left alone, it's just not an inherently problematic body part.







I'll worry much more about this baby's (and my own!) appendix, gallbladder, teeth, etc., which are all way more likely to cause problems that will warrant their removal.


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## MisaGoat (Jul 10, 2006)

It sounds like _you_ don't want to circ this baby.

You feel bad about what happened with your first son, once you understood more what circumcision entailed first hand.

As far as 'problems' I think a lot of times problems are blamed on being intact that aren't necessary so. My husband is intact and has not had a single problem, my son is intact without problems. I don't think circumcision is a legitimate 'prophylactic' procedure.

Circumcision is a cultural phenomenon here, not a medical necessity.


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## MisaGoat (Jul 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
when he came back hiccuping from the crying I felt bad. When the dressing came off and I SAW the raw wound I broke down and sobbed. He has 2 skin bridges (one in the exact same place as DH oddly enough) and I've never mentioned it to a medical person because I don't want them to go "Oh, well, we'll just cut that" or something.

My mindset is currently: IF it needs to be done later it can be...and usually WITH anesthetic. I can't undo it after it's already done.

Just go back and read what you wrote, your own words.

I'll explain my thought process, but I can't say I was really on the fence:

He was born with it, why remove it? It isn't necessary. It causes pain. I have no reason to circumcise. I've know intact men without any problems (including my husband). I know my FIL's circumcision caused problems that needed surgery later (I don't know the details exactly but that is why my husband didn't get circumcised as a baby).

Honestly I couldn't even watch a circumcision when I was a nursing student. I cried without even seeing it. If I can't handle watching, there is no way I would have that done to my son.


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## SpiderMum (Sep 13, 2008)

If you leave an intact child alone (NO retraction), problems with the foreskin are very very rare. UTIs are rare, but easily treated with antibiotics. Phimosis isn't common and can't be diagnosed till after puberty and can be treated with steroid cream. There really isn't much to worry about, I mean...nature wouldn't screw this up. Either God got the design spot on or natural selection weeded out any poor penis designs long ago. Men in the UK certainly aren't dropping like flies because they are intact.

Meanwhile, 1 in 3 circs result in complications.

Beyond all that, it's your son's penis. I think everyone should be able to decide what they want to do with their own bodies unless there is some dire medical need for surgery during childhood. I know it's hard when you already have one circumcised child, but circing the 2nd one won't fix the first.


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## MrsJewelsRae (Aug 19, 2008)

IME INTACT is easier and cleaner than cut. I've been a nanny and DCP for years before and after becoming a mom. All the boys I ever took care of were cut and it was my idea of normal. When I got pg with my oldest, who is 8, I didn't even consider not circing him. But I was confronted on another message board and decided I at least owed it to my child to research it, as I did everything else about birth and babies. I didn't want to though, cause I was afraid of what I might find and tbh, I thought intact would be gross.







But I am so thankful I learned the truth on time. All it took was one video to turn me into anti circ, I told my dh no way in hell would I do that to our son, and after watching the video, he agreed.







When my son was born I found him to be beautiful and whole, I never realized just how raw and injured all the boys actually seemed that I had babysat. At every diaper change you had to move their cut foreskins because stuff always got trapped in them. With my son, it was just wipe it off like a finger. I have 2 boys now, both intact, and have never had any problems at all.

Research shows that infants have less capacity to deal with pain than adults or older children do. Not to mention, when an adult it circ'd, he is put right under and given all the painkillers he needs afterwards. Babies are given no such humane treatment, they cut them as if they were unfeeling beings- awake and afraid, and send them on their way w/o a bit of pain relief for afterwards, then they have to sit in a diaper of their own urine day in and day out while they are still raw and healing.







No question in my mind infant circ is far worse than adult, even if they can't remember it.

Circumcision removes a shocking amount of length. My nephew that is circ'd appears to have almost no penis, just a little nub, while my ds is about 3-4 times longer. I don't understand how our culture can find this acceptable.

My son's penis is his, I have to right to allow a cosmetic surgery upon it.

I would never want my children to think that they must conform in order to be accepted. Yet people always seem to bring up the alleged locker room scenario. If that were to happen to my son, I would except him to turn it around and say something to the affect of "dude why are you checking out my stuff!?" etc.

For many years north america has perpetuated the myth that intact is dirty and must be retracted to keep it clean from infancy. This "medical advice" is bunk and is the cause for many circs that "had" to be done later due to the retraction causing small tears or adhesions- scars basically. Then of course, any trouble w/ an itact penis meant immediate circ, when they could have tried steroid creams first. But ignorance prevails. All you have to do is look at the circ rates after infancy in European countries where circ is not routine, they're intact and they know how to care for themselves, thus their adult circ rate is quite low...


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## mamadebug (Dec 28, 2006)

I found this thread when searching for another topic, but thought I would chime in to say that my DS is now 6, intact and has never had an infection. All of the boys around his age that we are close friends with (I can count 6 boys off the top of my head) are intact and 1 of them had an infection 1 time. It was uncomfortable for maybe a day until the antibiotics kicked in, but cleared up quickly.


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## ma2two (May 4, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Baby~Braatens~Mama* 
even in this anti-circ board most of the posts are desperate mothers worried about forced retraction, uti's, nameless boils and cysts, bleeding and infections. All uncirc'd boys, and I can't help but question myself on the morality of the possibility of putting my child through years of pain until he is old enough to tell me that he would like a circumsision... Not saying that every uncirc'd kid has problems. But the number of stories is overwhelming for this first time mom.

You should read this thread.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...068&highlight=


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## rabbitmum (Jan 25, 2007)

Hello, I just wanted to chime in and leave my couple of cents. I am European, live in Europe and don't know anybody who is circed. Apparently my DH has an English friend who was circed when he was 20 because of phimosis, but that is the only case of actual phimosis I have ever heard of. And here (Norway) doctors don't even circ for phimosis - they just cut a small slit to allow retraction.

I have always been surprised by all the questions about suspected foreskin problems on MDC, because I never ever hear about any here, where I have known loads of mothers with sons for over 20 years! (My eldest son is 22 - never had any problems with his foreskin, of course!) I am assuming that it must be because many people in the US lack knowledge and experience with normal penises. So that a slightly red little tip or suspected pain in a toddler is interpreted as a problem, or that somebody has actually retracted and caused some damage.

There is nothing strange or difficult about having an intact son, there is nothing to worry about, just leave it alone.

UTIs are really rare in boys - none of mine has ever had one - and it doesn't have anything to do with the foreskin anyway.

I do realize that it is easy for me to say, living in a culture where it isn't an issue at all, but I really hope you will leave all your future sons intact.









Good luck with the rest of your pregnancy!


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

I also live in Europe, although I am an American, and where I live a baby cannot legally be circed at birth in the hospital. If someone wants it done, the parents have to take the baby to a professional and there are some requirements. I don't know what they are because I wasn't interested in doing that to DS. My friends here, knowing American culture, have asked if I had DS circed and I just shrugged and said no. Their relief was palpable.

I don't get your worry. There are entire continents of people who don't circ routinely and you don't hear about their penises falling off. Just learn about proper penis care and it'll be just fine.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

A true eye opener for my dh was learning the history of circ in North America which was prevention/cure of masturbation which was considered dirty and sinful and was blamed for blindness, retardation and a ton of other physical and mental conditions...very sick history. This is a great link quoting different MDs of that time:

A Short History of Circumcision in North America In the Physicians' Own Words: http://www.noharmm.org/docswords.htm


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lalaland42* 
I don't get your worry. There are entire continents of people who don't circ routinely and you don't hear about their penises falling off. Just learn about proper penis care and it'll be just fine.









I SO agree. I am originally from Russia where men are (thanks God!!) whole. And they are the ones who almost never have to deal with things like yeast or UTIs (unlike some women...who are also intact in case you may wonder).


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## arianascrunchymama (Dec 9, 2009)

a _slightly_ higher risk of an infection is no reason to cut off a healthy important part of a baby's body.

circumcision effects the entire function of the penis, sexually and otherwise

I'm back in school to get certified as an IBCLC, and one of the classes I'm in this semester is currently delving into the anatomy of the brain, as well as lots of studies about it's different functions. Did you know it takes 6 months+ for a circ'd baby boy's cortisol levels to go back down to normal? Then for the rest of his life any pain will cause cortisol to flood his body to the same levels that it was at post-op. Almost like the circumcision trained his body that those extreme levels of stress hormones is an appropriate response to pain. And here we thought our men were just being big babies when they get hurt or sick









my exH had scars from adhesions and a skin bridge. Every man I've been with (all circ'd, unfortunately for me) has had an obvious scar when he has an erection. They were all also men who focused on orgasm instead of the pleasure of the act itself.

I sat for a boy my DD's age from age 11mo-21mo. He was circ'd at 6 weeks because of some insurance issue his parents were having (they were probably trying to get them to cover it). His mom told me he was just starting to smile socially and coo. For over a week he didn't smile and the only sound out of his mouth was blood curdling screams. In the 12 months I had him he needed antibiotics for 3 infections that caused his circ scar to ooze puss, bleed, and his glans to get purple-ish.







It broke my heart and I would hold him and apologize to him.

What does society deem acceptable to cut off on girls? I think that no matter what gender you are, you deserve to have the rights to your own natural body. Body integrity!!! There will come a day (hopefully) that the US will be as horrified by MGM as they are by FGM, but I doubt I will see it in my lifetime.


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## Vaquitita (Mar 2, 2006)

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I am debating over this right now with my 10 day old son. we didn't know what we were having, but i was really hoping for a girl so i wouldn't have to deal with this. i should have researched it while i was pregnant, but didn't.

We circ'd our first son, I didn't really want to but DH did and as we did everything else my way I compromised on this. And his circ went fine, no problems at all. he was not happy when he woke up from the nap he took right after, but after that it never seemed to bother him again. i did everything i could to make it easier for him- we used anesthetic (sp?), some thick white cream stuff that we globbed all over him 30 min before hand. i didn't not see it done, i made dh do it. ds was not tied down, but only held by dh and a nurse. with every diaper change (and i change every time he pees) i would apply neosporin + pain relief.

this time around we have to pay out of pocket for it, and the dr who did my first son charges 2x as much as every other dr. i'm not sure why. but i really like this dr and would want her to do it (with my first son, when i brought up the circ, she asked me if i was sure i wanted it) cause i feel more comfortable with her doing it than some unknown dr. and reading here there's mention of different styles of circ (high and tight, low and loose) and i have no idea what these mean. or which is 'better'/less bad. it's so overwhelming. i think ds1's circ is 'loose' because his skin does at times cover part of his glans. i'm not sure on the high vs. low thing.

while i have no problems with having my sons intact when dh is circ'd, i do worry about how it will go having one son circ'd and one not. i would love to hear from mom's who have both sons who are and who aren't circ'd. right now this is the only reason we want it done. dh now wishes ds1 wasn't so we wouldn't have to do it this time (mostly cause of the $$, which kinda upsets me.) i don't see any need for circ'ing, god knew what he was doing. on the other hand, if circ'ing is so horrible why would god have told the israelites/jews to do it? that wouldn't make sense. --that's not a real question, just something i wonder.

it's hard for me to know what to make of the risks of circ'ing, because neither dh nor ds1 have had any complications.


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## wookie (Dec 12, 2008)

another one to chime in with both my sons are intact (as were the vast majority of men in my country of origin) and neither of them have evr had an infection of any kind.

as to the pp who was wondering the dynamics when one child is circ'ed and the other not, well what if one of your children was blond and the otehr redheaded? would you *permanently* change one of their hair colours so they would look alike? what if they had eyes of different colour? if you think you made a mistake one time, mama, please don;t make it again just so they can be comparable, yk? your second son is ANOTHER person altogether.


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vaquitita* 
while i have no problems with having my sons intact when dh is circ'd, i do worry about how it will go having one son circ'd and one not. i would love to hear from mom's who have both sons who are and who aren't circ'd. right now this is the only reason we want it done. dh now wishes ds1 wasn't so we wouldn't have to do it this time (mostly cause of the $$, which kinda upsets me.)

Here are some previous threads on this topic:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1094686
http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1250192


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## Vaquitita (Mar 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NSmomtobe* 
Here are some previous threads on this topic:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1094686
http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1250192

thanks for these links. dh thinks ds2 will feel the odd one out since dh and ds1 are both circ'd. i suggested we just say we knew better the 2nd time. dh thinks it comes down to something being wrong with one of the boys. either we didn't know better with ds1 and so there's something wrong with him OR we couldn't afford it (or whatever) and so there's something wrong with ds2.

i'm trying to figure out how to get him to look at this differently, that they're just different without there being anything wrong with one of them. i think he cares more about them being different then they are likely to. hmm, maybe that's what i need to say to him... that the boys will only have a problem with it if WE view one of them as being 'defective'.

and what if we did circ ds2 and then in the future have another son? we'd have to go through this all over again.


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