# Remind Me Why Attended CIO is Bad, Need Other Solutions! Update #21



## Shelsi (Apr 4, 2005)

This is going to be long and I apologize. I am so so so sleep deprived. Dd has gone backwards in regards to sleeping since she was 2 mos old. When she was 2 weeks old she was sleeping 6-7 hrs straight at night. By the time she was 2 mos old she was sleeping 10 hrs straight. I thought I had been blessed with yet another great sleeper. Boy was I wrong!

When she was 2 mos old I took the kids to visit my parents. She started waking all night long while we were there. I assumed it was just the change of environment and because we were co-sleeping and she was used to being in her amby bed. When we got home she did start sleeping a little better and went back to doing 6-7 hr stretches. Then it started to deteriorate though. She started waking more and more often. She didn't want to be swaddled anymore. She started wanting to roll over so we moved her out of the amby bed and into the crib (in our room). Things improved for a few days. She's now to the point were she is waking at least every 2 hours. Sometimes if I'm really lucky she will do one 3 hour stretch. Last night her longest stretch was from 10:30 pm - 1 a.m and then after that she was up every 80 minutes.

She can find her pacifier and put it in her mouth. She does that and then cries around it. I've tried patting her to get her back to sleep but she will have none of it. I've tried rocking her instead of nursing her but again she won't have it. Dh just deployed making all this much harder. When he was home though he would go and try to rock her and she would FREAK out. She wanted nothing to do with dh









I've tried co-sleeping. First off she won't really nurse side lying and if she does she won't fall asleep that way. If I do get her to sleep she is very very restless and neither one of us gets any quality sleep at all.

I just can not be this sleep deprived. I've got a 3.5 yr old to take care of as well and he's getting the short end of the stick. Not to mention that he really needs some extra attention right now to help him deal with dh leaving (he's only been gone 2 days). Dd is tired too and not getting the quality sleep she needs and then she's super fussy all day long.

I just don't know what to do. I did the Sleep Lady thing with my ds when he was about a year old. He had already been sleeping through the night though and just needed to learn to put himself to sleep because nothing we did could. I sat next to his crib and just shhh'd him and patted him. He fussed just a tiny bit, never cried, and it worked wonderful. But he was older and understood he needed to go to sleep and he didn't cry. If I try it with dd I know she will cry and cry hard. So I know in my heart I can't do it. But my brain and my body is just begging for sleep and I'm tempted to try it.

I've done night time routines. I feel like I've tried all the gentle methods there are and things are just worse and worse. I just don't know where to go from here


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## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

I hate to tell you this, but this is totally normal for this age. My baby slept great until about six months old when her sleep regressed. We are just now starting to get more 3/4 hour stretches. It sucks, seriously!







I know how hard it is. Have you read the No Cry Sleep Solution? There might be some ideas in there that you find helpful.


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## aja-belly (Oct 7, 2004)

my dd has always nursed often at night. i think the co-sleeping and side-lying nursing has made this alot easier on us. if i were in your shoes i know that is what i would be working on. maybe try it during the day so she gets used to it?

is she maybe uncomfortable lying flat (due to ear stuff or reflux)? if the amby helped, maybe trying that again or a wedge for the crib?


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## PPK (Feb 15, 2007)

DS started to sleep better this week. We:

a) Have been doing the NCSS religiously for a month

and

b) Started solids this week. He's only 5 months (he showed extreme interest), but its seems to be helping him sleep better at night.


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## AlpineMama (Aug 16, 2007)

If it makes you feel any better, my DS was the worst sleeper from about 6 months until about a week ago. He would not sleep unless attached to me. He would wake up from the deepest sleep if I moved, so I couldn't even go pee by myself, and I had zero free time. "Get work done while he naps" - yeah right! I had to lie there in the dark with him.

Then all of the sudden, about a week ago, he started sleeping on his own, in his crib, through the night, and three naps a day. He doesn't even WANT me to sleep next to him! He gets annoyed, and loves his crib. Previously we hadn't even thought of using it for anything other than clothes changing.

So... you never know what's around the bend!


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## Shelsi (Apr 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jenrose9* 
DS started to sleep better this week. We:

a) Have been doing the NCSS religiously for a month

and

b) Started solids this week. He's only 5 months (he showed extreme interest), but its seems to be helping him sleep better at night.

I do think dd has been ready for solids for a few weeks now. Problem is she's got allergies and I'm still trying to figure them out (currently on a total elimination diet) and I don't want to start yet. In the back of my mind though I have wondered if this is part of the problem.

I just got back from the used book store and bought all the major sleep books. I got Ferber (no, I'm not going to do CIO but I've heard he's very thorough in explaining infant sleep), Healthy Sleep Habits Happy Child, Secrets of the Baby Whisperer, and No-Cry Sleep Solution. I figure after reading them all I should be able to put them all together into something. At least having a plan will help I guess.

Thanks for the responses so far. I posted this question on my other mainstream forum because I knew I'd get a wide variety of responses posting in both forums but all they say so far is, "I know you don't want to CIO but..." and one other person who insists her baby NEEDED formula to sleep







Ok that could be true if she had low supply or something but I doubt it from the way she described it.

I guess my biggest issue isn't getting her to sleep but keeping her asleep. I don't expect a not quite 6 mos old to be able to put herself to sleep but I do honestly expect her to be able to do at least one 4 hr stretch at this age. I don't think that's unreasonable. Anyways, off to read my books...


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## eli janine (Jun 29, 2006)

My kiddo slept very badly around that time, and it was teething, even though we didn't see any teeth for about a month. He just wanted to wake and nurse that much more because his mouth was hurting. After about three weeks-a month, his sleep went back to something resembling 4-5 hours at a stretch, wake, find breast, nurse a little more, roll over and sleep. Side-lying nursing really helped, and a wedge pillow under him while we did so seemed to help a lot at the six month age. Good luck with your reading!


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## westcoastma (Jan 10, 2008)

Is she teething right now? That can really throw sleep patterns off.

My ds is 4 1/2 months and started teething around 3 months. His sleep had been fine (5 hours at the longest usually, even one 8 hr stretch in there!!) until about 3 weeks ago. Now he's usually up every 2 hours or so at night. Although he can have some longer stretches in there.

I do know this about babies... as soon as you think you have a routine down and are feeling good about how things are going, they change their patterns and totally throw you through a loop!

Good luck, happy reading (I read Lull-a-Baby Sleep Plan.. think that's the No Cry Solution book you have. Found some helpful hints, though haven't officially "sleep trained" ds. With the teething I find it much easier to nurse him back to sleep than shhh-shhh him back to sleep)


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## MaryTheres (Mar 21, 2007)

Just wanted to chime in and tell you that my DS is a great sleeper (imho). Routinely slept through the night until 6 months (no CIO ever). But months 6 through 9 was REALLY REALLY bad... it was teething and crawling that did it. 10-12months was better and doable but not great. The entire second year was intermittent a few months good, a few months awful due to molars (they are NIGHTMARE). I never did any type of plan - most of the time I knew it was teeth and I felt like 'what could I do but nurse him and hang in there.' He's sleeping REALLY well now at almost 2.5 - through the night and sometimes he sleeps in! i.e., 'till 10am (yesterday and this morning he slept 'till 9:30am and 9:45am). It really helped me just knowing it was normal, extremely common, due to teeth and WILL pass. I didn;t have another child to care for though! Hang in there and I hope I helped.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

sounds completely normal for her age. Newborns are kind of in a trance. Their sleeper selves don't really reveal themselves until 4 mos+

If she is not a good cosleeper then you are kind of in a bind. Work through the obvious things (allergies, milestones, teething) and then move to NCSS. That would be my rec.








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## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shelsi* 
I do think dd has been ready for solids for a few weeks now. Problem is she's got allergies and I'm still trying to figure them out (currently on a total elimination diet) and I don't want to start yet. In the back of my mind though I have wondered if this is part of the problem.

I just got back from the used book store and bought all the major sleep books. I got Ferber (no, I'm not going to do CIO but I've heard he's very thorough in explaining infant sleep), Healthy Sleep Habits Happy Child, Secrets of the Baby Whisperer, and No-Cry Sleep Solution. I figure after reading them all I should be able to put them all together into something. At least having a plan will help I guess.

Thanks for the responses so far. I posted this question on my other mainstream forum because I knew I'd get a wide variety of responses posting in both forums but all they say so far is, "I know you don't want to CIO but..." and one other person who insists her baby NEEDED formula to sleep







Ok that could be true if she had low supply or something but I doubt it from the way she described it.

I guess my biggest issue isn't getting her to sleep but keeping her asleep. I don't expect a not quite 6 mos old to be able to put herself to sleep but I do honestly expect her to be able to do at least one 4 hr stretch at this age. I don't think that's unreasonable. Anyways, off to read my books...

I have to say I have never understood the formula thing. I have drastically low supply and unfortunately my baby gets most of her nutrition from formula. (Though I must say that I'm REALLY proud to have made it to a year nursing, in spite of everything!) Anyways when I first had to supplement her it was awful, I was so upset... and I tried to comfort myself by saying, well... at least she will sleep longer!!!!

HA!

She sleeps exactly the same as always.

There are NO guarantees!


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

She could very well be hungry at night! Especially if she's "almost ready for solids" but you're delaying solids for allergy reasons, she's likely to need to nurse more frequently to get enough calories in. Maybe she slept longer at a stretch when she was younger because her caloric needs were lower and she was able to fill up enough during the day, but now truly NEEDS the nourishment at night.

I wouldn't attempt to nightwean anybody who's not on solids yet. Maybe she's crying with the pacifier at night because she really needs to nurse?

Am I reading this correctly, that she woke ever 80 minutes last night and was only offered a pacifier at those waking times? If hunger was waking her up, it makes sense that she'd just wake up a little while later unsatisfied.

Maybe try nursing her when she wakes at night, even if it means transfering her to her crib after nursing and then going back to your own bed. She just may sleep longer if she's got a full belly. You also may want to give cosleeping another try- just because it didn't work last time you tried it doesn't mean it won't work now. The worst that can happen is you won't sleep- which is already happening, right?


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## Shelsi (Apr 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prettypixels* 
I have to say I have never understood the formula thing. I have drastically low supply and unfortunately my baby gets most of her nutrition from formula. (Though I must say that I'm REALLY proud to have made it to a year nursing, in spite of everything!) Anyways when I first had to supplement her it was awful, I was so upset... and I tried to comfort myself by saying, well... at least she will sleep longer!!!!

HA!

She sleeps exactly the same as always.

There are NO guarantees!

Oh I know. My ds ended on formula at 4 mos of age. That's also when he STOPPED sleeping through the night! For him to was definitely teeth.

Dd has several issues. First she does have allergies but I'm working on them. Right now I'm on a total elimination diet. It's been 2 weeks and honestly it hasn't really done anything except get rid of some dry skin on her legs. Other than that it hasn't been the miracle that it is for some.

Secondly she's never gassy or anything but intestinely she just has to have something going on. She's always had very green mucousy poop, it looks like someone sneezed in her diaper, it's really nasty. Again I was hoping the diet would help but it's not.

Teething. Yes she's definitely teething. This sleep disturbance thing isn't new at all though. It's been going on for 4 mos straight. Teething tablets don't work for her at all. I got a teething necklace and that did nothing as well. I would do tylenol but it has corn in it which is her most severe intolerance.

She never had a newborn sleepy period. Not ever. Not even like the first day of being born. At first we thought it was because it was a NCB, now we realize it's just who she is. Dh kids that maybe I should have gotten the drugs and then she'd be more mellow like ds LOL.

I do expect a month or two of regression. Like the pp said about her good sleeper who was on again off again for the first 2 years. That's how my ds was. He slept through at 9 weeks but regressed for 2 mos just before his teeth (just so happens that dh was deployed right then too...convenient how he misses the most sleepless nights!!). Then he slept through again but went through a phase where he would wake in the night and dh would have to go get him is pacifier. Then, yes, the stupid molars...ugh, I hate those things lol. But overall he was a good sleeper. Overall, dd sucks at sleeping lol.

I guess what bothers me is a few things 1) I'm beyond exhausted and it makes me feel ill sometimes and leaves me without energy for ds who really needs lots of attention right now. 2) dd is extremely tired and it shows. She's not getting the quality sleep she needs to learn and grow IMO. She keeps getting sick, just random colds and such, and I feel like it's probably because she's over tired and her immune system isn't as good as it could be.

Anyways, back to reading NCSS....


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## Shelsi (Apr 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
She could very well be hungry at night! Especially if she's "almost ready for solids" but you're delaying solids for allergy reasons, she's likely to need to nurse more frequently to get enough calories in. Maybe she slept longer at a stretch when she was younger because her caloric needs were lower and she was able to fill up enough during the day, but now truly NEEDS the nourishment at night.

I wouldn't attempt to nightwean anybody who's not on solids yet. Maybe she's crying with the pacifier at night because she really needs to nurse?

Am I reading this correctly, that she woke ever 80 minutes last night and was only offered a pacifier at those waking times? If hunger was waking her up, it makes sense that she'd just wake up a little while later unsatisfied.

Maybe try nursing her when she wakes at night, even if it means transfering her to her crib after nursing and then going back to your own bed. She just may sleep longer if she's got a full belly. You also may want to give cosleeping another try- just because it didn't work last time you tried it doesn't mean it won't work now. The worst that can happen is you won't sleep- which is already happening, right?

The solids thing makes sense. Maybe I could start her on squash...that's the only thing in my diet that she can tolerate (well and turkey...not going to give her that!)

And no, you're reading it wrong







She won't go back to sleep without nursing. I do try and offer the paci first or try patting her to see if by some miracle it suddenly works but it never does. So she nursed, usually both sides, last night every 80 mins (I don't know why it was so regular but it really was exactly every 80 mins). During the day she goes 2+ hours between nursing. It's usually 2 but she throws a 3 hour stretch in there sometimes. I would say perhaps last night could be the beginning of the 6 mos growth spurt but she was totally normal today and wasn't even that interested in nursing (she's in the super distractable phase).

Every night when she wakes I nurse her and then put her back in her crib and I tip toe back into my bed (which is prob 6 feet from hers). I tried bringing her into bed with me last night and it totally woke her up. I try it every few days because I really don't mind having her there, esp now with dh gone there's plenty of room, but it just never works. Ds was never a co-sleeper either...for some reason I don't have cuddly children, at least not at night









I also am not wanting to night wean. But I do think that a 6 mos old can go longer than an hour and a half without eating at night. I think she goes into that light state of sleep and just can't get back into deep sleep without help. Many times nursing won't help so then I have to do this rock back and forth and bouce while patting her and singing thing which is just beyond my capabilities in the middle of the night sometimes lol.

Oh and I also think it will be normal for her to fuss some when she goes to sleep. She fusses at the breast when she falls asleep. She fusses pretty hard in the carrier when she fall asleep. She really fusses when she won't nurse any more (she doesn't comfort nurse at all, never has) but still needs to sleep. Then I'm rocking her, bouncing her, etc and sometimes she basically CIO in my arms


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shelsi* 
. She's always had very green mucousy poop,

Are you only now attempting an elimination diet? If so then definitely step away from the sleep books. A baby with constant diarrhea is most likely hungry (from malabsorption) and just uncomfortable. My dairy/soy intolerant baby took 3 weeks of a very strict diet* to go more than 45 minutes without nursing. Now (19 mos) he tests negative for allergies and I can eat whatever I want. But if he has an ounce of cows milk then I am nursing every hour all night long.

If I were you I would focus 110% of my energy on this issue and forget about sleep. Sleep will come when she is comfortable.

*even my eating a french fry (typically cooked in soybean oil) would cause constant nursing for 3 nights. Always 3 nights!


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I'm glad to hear that your DD wan't hungry that whole time, and did nurse when she needed to!

Can you set up a mattress on the floor for her? Then you could nurse her down to sleep and then slip away without having to move her, and go back to your own bed if you wake up enough to do so, or you have room to sleep on the floor next to her if you're just too tired to move after nursing her at night. It might not upset her sleep if you have enough space so she doesnt' feel squished, and especially if you're not on the same mattress as her, so she can't feel your movements.

Another thought- maybe she'd be OK cosleeping with you if nobody else but the 2 of you were in the bed? If you have your DP in bed with you, and then baby makes 3, it might be too crowded for her comfort. But if you're in the big bed alone, and then baby makes 2, you may all sleep better.


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## Shelsi (Apr 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
Are you only now attempting an elimination diet? If so then definitely step away from the sleep books. A baby with constant diarrhea is most likely hungry (from malabsorption) and just uncomfortable. My dairy/soy intolerant baby took 3 weeks of a very strict diet* to go more than 45 minutes without nursing. Now (19 mos) he tests negative for allergies and I can eat whatever I want. But if he has an ounce of cows milk then I am nursing every hour all night long.

If I were you I would focus 110% of my energy on this issue and forget about sleep. Sleep will come when she is comfortable.

*even my eating a french fry (typically cooked in soybean oil) would cause constant nursing for 3 nights. Always 3 nights!


Well I figured out when she was about 2 mos old that she's allergic to corn. I took that out and her spitting up (it was FOUNTAINS) completely went away and she did get a little less fussy. I kept waiting for the poop to get back to normal and it never did. The thing is though the TED really isn't doing anything right now. Yes, I'm sticking with it, at least for a month, but I find it hard to believe that if her issue is dairy/soy that I wouldn't have seen some improvement in 2 weeks. I know it can take 2 weeks to leave my body but as the amount in my body is less and less I would think she would make small improvements?

Your post reminded me of something else. She can sleep 3 hrs sometimes during the day for a nap. So why can she sleep 3 hours in the day and not at night?

She is high needs and does need to be held a lot but I really don't feel like she is in any pain or discomfort. Like I said, she has no gas, no spitting up anymore. I don't hear her tummy rumbling like it did when I was on corn. All that went away months ago when I took out corn. She's gaining weight like crazy...it all goes to her thighs which are humongous lol. She learned to sit unassisted a few weeks ago and she's slowly starting to really dig it and be able to sit and play with her toys for 10-15 mins at a time if myself or my ds is in the same room. Oh, one thing I have noticed in the last few weeks, possibly related to the diet I'm not sure, is that she isn't always screaming in the car seat. I used to avoid going out. She would just scream the entire drive no matter where we went, it was awful and nothing we did ever helped. She has NEVER fallen asleep in the car, not even as a newborn. We went on vacation a few months ago, which should have been a 7 hr drive and instead was a 12 hr drive with her crying the entire time, it was awful







The last few times we've gone out though she has just played with her toys and let ds entertain her so that's a definite positive.


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## Shelsi (Apr 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
I'm glad to hear that your DD wan't hungry that whole time, and did nurse when she needed to!

Can you set up a mattress on the floor for her? Then you could nurse her down to sleep and then slip away without having to move her, and go back to your own bed if you wake up enough to do so, or you have room to sleep on the floor next to her if you're just too tired to move after nursing her at night. It might not upset her sleep if you have enough space so she doesnt' feel squished, and especially if you're not on the same mattress as her, so she can't feel your movements.

Another thought- maybe she'd be OK cosleeping with you if nobody else but the 2 of you were in the bed? If you have your DP in bed with you, and then baby makes 3, it might be too crowded for her comfort. But if you're in the big bed alone, and then baby makes 2, you may all sleep better.

We hardly have space as it is







We are very squished in a small 2 bedroom right now. Dh had to do some major reorganizing and had to get rid of some furniture just to set up the crib (we thought she'd stay in the amby bed longer). It is just me and dd in the bed now because dh is currently deployed.

I'm half way through NCSS and a lot of it is making sense to me. I'm too tired to read the rest tonight though lol. I've already stayed up later than I should but if I keep going to bed early and not being proactive then nothing will change! I think she's definitely not getting enough nap time sleep during the day. Usually I can get one nap from her, but sometimes not even that. On a really good day she'll get 2 naps but that is very rare. So she is probably really over-tired.

Anyways I better get to bed. Thanks for all the suggestions everyone! Keep them coming.


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## sweetsensation (May 27, 2006)

Have you considered seeing a chiropractor? I have heard that an adjustment can really improve an infant's sleep, among other things. My dd is having similar issues with sleep and I have been thinking of taking her to get an adjustment or two for quite a while. I just need to find one and do it! I have also thought that she has allergies as well. How are you doing the elimination diet? Is it like Fiengold's(sp)? I would like to try it with her and myself. we can't keep food away from dd (she's 11 months) but I am desperate for sleep too, so willing to try anything!!

Annah


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## Shirada (Jul 29, 2002)

Have you read "The Aware Baby" by Aletha Solter? It is a different slant on things.


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## Shelsi (Apr 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetsensation* 
Have you considered seeing a chiropractor? I have heard that an adjustment can really improve an infant's sleep, among other things. My dd is having similar issues with sleep and I have been thinking of taking her to get an adjustment or two for quite a while. I just need to find one and do it! I have also thought that she has allergies as well. How are you doing the elimination diet? Is it like Fiengold's(sp)? I would like to try it with her and myself. we can't keep food away from dd (she's 11 months) but I am desperate for sleep too, so willing to try anything!!

Annah

I have actually. It didn't help with the sleeping issues but I am glad I took her. I took her when she was a week old and she didn't need any adjustments. Then I took her at 4.5 mos old and she needed lots of adjustments! One of the cool things is that one place she needed an adjustment was an area of the spine that the chiro said they use for learning to sit. He adjusted her and the next day she could sit unassisted for long periods of time whereas before it was only maybe 30 seconds! I thought that was so neat.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shirada* 
Have you read "The Aware Baby" by Aletha Solter? It is a different slant on things.

Nope but it sounds really appropriate for dd. Since day one we have all just said, "wow, she's so aware of everything..." I'll see if my library has it.


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## Shelsi (Apr 4, 2005)

Well for a smallish update apparently all I had to do was spend a bunch of money on sleep books and complain on the internet. Last night she slept from 8 pm until 1:45! Almost 6 hours! She hasn't done that in MONTHS. Too bad I didn't go to bed early like I was going to...but I did get in bed by 11, prob asleep by 11:30 so I still got a little sleep which was cool. After that she went back to waking often. Oh and she woke at 6:40 this morning and sounded really awake like she was up for the day. I was not ready to be up for the day yet though so I put her in bed with me and figured she could play while I dozed. She actually nursed and fell back asleep! She slept another hour until ds came in and woke us up. She slept very peacefully next to me









Now I just wish I knew what was different last night...


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## wendy1221 (Feb 9, 2004)

I have found w/ my babies that they start sleeping badly around 6 mos b/c of teething, and that goes on until they're over 1 and off and on until all of their molars are in.

Another thing that my babies do is they sleep their longest stretch first thing and then wake up every 2 hours or lesss after that, so if you are feeling sleep deprived, you really need to go to bed when the baby does. Get up earlier in the morning to get things done instead of staying up after the kids are asleep. hth!


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Someone suggested the Aware baby already, and I don't know if you have ordered it already, but you can get a taste of it from the website. She argues that attended CIO is not only not bad, but really good at least for some kids. Second thing I thought was, since the first stretch she sleeps is the longest, could you possibly rearrange her schedule so she has a late last nap and then put her down for the night at say 11:00 when you go to sleep yourself? I know I could not do that because I need some time alone in the evening, but maybe it would be good for you? Third thought is white noise or music. Do you think that letting some white noise machine on throughout the night would help her wake up less often?


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## Incubator (May 11, 2006)

Wow, that sounds exactly like DS, right down to the green mucousy poop. We found the poop was because my grandparents thought we were starving him to death and were sneaking him graham crackers when we went to visit. He was four months old, he was losing weight because of the constant pooping. It was awful.
He also woke frequently to nurse, more often than he really needed. I tried to be more careful with what I ate, but it didn't really seem to matter. Eventually the poop went away and he got better. Then he started gaining weight again. I wish I could say something more helpful, but I have no idea how we survived that period.


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