# Why children need more sleep



## calpurnia (Sep 26, 2004)

I saw this the other day & thought it was really interesting.

Why children need more sleep

Quote:

Children sleep an hour less today than 30 years ago - and it's having a dramatic effect on their intelligence, behaviour and obesity levels.


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## Morning Star (Feb 1, 2010)

Wow! thanks for sharing that article it was really interesting.


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## Aufilia (Jul 31, 2007)

Thanks for sharing. I'm a big believer in sleep but it's good to be reminded why it's so valuable.


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## tifpaul (Nov 13, 2006)

Wow, that article is amazing. I was so interested by the research that backs it up. We aren't feeling the pressure yet on bedtime, but I'm sure it's coming.


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## funkymamajoy (May 25, 2008)

hmm, can I get my kids to read this?


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Chicken/Egg. How do they know that it isn't getting less outside exercise that's making the kids sleep worse?

I'm also leery of studies like that because of the risk that so-called sleep experts will use it to justify using CIO with infants. Mindell already did a literature review of studies that found benefits to longer sleep in adults and children over age 4 where she concluded that getting babies to sleep longer was better too.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

I don't think it's justifying CIO. Sleep is very important. When I don't sleep enough I feel depressed and I overeat. When my kids don't sleep enough they are cranky, emotional and unreasonable.


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## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Sleep is important but it's also reasonable to account for individual differences. I have one child who needed (and still needs) lots of sleep. I have another who slept much less - as an infant had long waking periods, napped in brief snatches and woke through the night even as a pre-schooler.

It was hard to adjust my thinking about what that child SHOULD be doing - taking nice long naps and sleeping 10 or 12 hours a night - as opposed to what her real sleep requirements are, partly because I had so many well-meaning people telling me babies and children need lots of sleep. I finally realized that some children don't.


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## JoanCrawford (Jan 15, 2010)

The amount of sleep most children get is criminal. Parents don't enforce bedtimes because they're scared of coming off strict. Its horrible.


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## FnkyGreenMama (Nov 27, 2008)

Thank you so much for posting this. I was looking for exactly this kind of article for a handout that I am creating. I know that there are individual differences, but working in schools and talking to children about their sleep habits has made me realize what a huge factor sleep (or poor quality/quantity of sleep) can be in the lives of children, and it is often overlooked.


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## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

I can't function well without sleep. And that does not make me a "woos" - as the article points out. I KNOW my DD needs more sleep.


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## Qestia (Sep 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkymamajoy* 
hmm, can I get my kids to read this?

Me too!


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

People are often very down on me, because of how careful I am to protect my kids' bedtimes. My kids seem to go to bed much earlier, and sleep much longer, than other kids that we've gotten acquainted with, and parents think I'm weird. When I talk about it with older adults, though, they seem to think I'm right on track-- that's how much sleep their kids got, too, when they had kids at home.

So I think there's something to this.

I liked this that I read in the comments:

Quote:

but am also sceptical about a culture that hasn't yet worked out how to meet the basic needs of children, rather than just fitting them around their parents' economic roles
That said a lot, to me.

I wonder, too, if people who think their kids are getting enough sleep, would find that their kids would be happier, more alert, easier to live with, etc., if their kids got another hour or so sleep at night. Oftentimes kids DO need the sleep, but there are issues of habit and environmental influence that keep kids from getting it, and parents don't even realize it. Like knowing that if kids are in front of a blinking TV screen in the evenings, that makes it harder for them to settle to sleep, for instance. Or knowing that toddlers and preschoolers will often NOT "sleep in" in the mornings, so that if they go to bed too late, they will go chronically short on sleep.

Of course there are individual differences. There would have to be, and that means there will be certain kids who need much more or much less than the average kid. But the idea that ON AVERAGE, kids are getting less than the optimal amount of sleep-- that really rings true for me.


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## Rosebud1 (Sep 8, 2007)

Llyra,

Just curious -- how old are your kids, and what time do they go to sleep?

I have a two year old and my goal is for her to have thirteen hours (between night sleep and nap) a day of sleep.


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## jen in co (May 5, 2004)

I strongly agree with articles like this. My DD is 7 years old and still goes to sleep b/t 7:00 - 7:30 most nights and gets up around 7. This is way more sleep than most of her friends and we're just getting to the point where it's impeding some social/sports opportunities. She plays Indoor soccer in the winter and we often keep her home from the later games (game start times can be as late as 8:40) -- my DH is the coach and he goes, we just keep her home. We were surprised when we started with this league that more parents didn't choose to keep their girls home (we were willing to forfeit games if needed). In terms of my DD, if she gets less sleep, it's a pretty big deal...it takes days to recover and she has a hard time functioning at school.

My DS (age 4) is more flexible in terms of how much sleep he needs. He can recover easier from a late night than my DD can, but he still goes to sleep at the same time and gets up around the same time...


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosebud1* 
Llyra,

Just curious -- how old are your kids, and what time do they go to sleep?

I have a two year old and my goal is for her to have thirteen hours (between night sleep and nap) a day of sleep.

My kids are 5, 3, and 3 (twins). The 3 year olds go to bed between 6:30 and 7, and sleep until 7:15ish am. They also take a nap-- usually about 90 minutes. So they get about 14 hours in a day, roughly.

My 5 year old goes to bed between 7:00 and 7:30, and sleeps until 7:30.


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## sweetpeppers (Dec 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jen in co* 
I strongly agree with articles like this. My DD is 7 years old and still goes to sleep b/t 7:00 - 7:30 most nights and gets up around 7. This is way more sleep than most of her friends and we're just getting to the point where it's impeding some social/sports opportunities. She plays Indoor soccer in the winter and we often keep her home from the later games (game start times can be as late as 8:40) -- my DH is the coach and he goes, we just keep her home. We were surprised when we started with this league that more parents didn't choose to keep their girls home (we were willing to forfeit games if needed). In terms of my DD, if she gets less sleep, it's a pretty big deal...it takes days to recover and she has a hard time functioning at school.

My DS (age 4) is more flexible in terms of how much sleep he needs. He can recover easier from a late night than my DD can, but he still goes to sleep at the same time and gets up around the same time...

Wow, I'm surprised a seven year old soccer league has games that late. That's definitely past most kids bedtimes I would think.


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## calpurnia (Sep 26, 2004)

I was surprised to learn that American schools start so early (as per this article). In the UK, start time is generally somewhere around 9.00.


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *calpurnia* 
I was surprised to learn that American schools start so early (as per this article). In the UK, start time is generally somewhere around 9.00.

And this has ticked me off all my life. I need a lot of sleep and I don't do well in the mornings, so having to start school around 7:30 did me a huge disservice. I would seriously consider homeschooling my kids if they have the same sleeping/waking problems I did, just for this reason.


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## jen in co (May 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpeppers* 
Wow, I'm surprised a seven year old soccer league has games that late. That's definitely past most kids bedtimes I would think.

I think Indoor Soccer is sort of like Ice Hockey...field time is scarce and the smaller field where our league plays needs to fit in games for U8 and U9 Boys & Girls b/t 4PM-8:40PM on one night a week....other nights it's used for other age groups, etc. They spread around the late start times, but you end up with a few 8PM and 8:40 games. Indoor is a totally fun take on soccer (no offsides, super fast) and it's easy in that there are no practices...everyone just shows up and plays once per week, but the field issue is huge. Also, my DD is one of only thre 7 year olds on the team (the rest are 8 & 9), so I think most of the other girls have later bed times.


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

While sleep was not one of the main factors in my decision to homeschool, it is definitely one of the huge benefits! I remember when my oldest was in school, between early school, after school activities, homework, it was very frustrating to try and get enough sleep in!


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

I hate articles like this. I have tried everything in the world to get more sleep for my child (who often does seem tired and cranky) but as the saying goes "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." Articles and books telling me how my child would be better off with more sleep, make me want to pull my hair out. We have always been very consistent about bedtime with a great bedtime routine. But that doesn't mean dd falls asleep. There have been times she has layed in bed awake from 7pm until 11pm without falling asleep. She usually is unable to fall asleep for a nap, unless driven around for 30-40 minutes (which isn't always doable now that we have a baby as well) and even if we can get her to nap and fall asleep at a decent time, there is absolutely nothing we can do about the early wakings (often as early as 4 am). The guilt these types of articles have created for me is enormous. And like a pp I too think that this type of research is often used as ammo from the cio camp. I have spent so much of my child's baby and toddlerhood feeling as if I were a good enough parent, if I just knew the right things to do to get my child to sleep everything would be better.


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
I hate articles like this. I have tried everything in the world to get more sleep for my child (who often does seem tired and cranky) but as the saying goes "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." Articles and books telling me how my child would be better off with more sleep, make me want to pull my hair out. We have always been very consistent about bedtime with a great bedtime routine. But that doesn't mean dd falls asleep. There have been times she has layed in bed awake from 7pm until 11pm without falling asleep. She usually is unable to fall asleep for a nap, unless driven around for 30-40 minutes (which isn't always doable now that we have a baby as well) and even if we can get her to nap and fall asleep at a decent time, there is absolutely nothing we can do about the early wakings (often as early as 4 am). The guilt these types of articles have created for me is enormous. And like a pp I too think that this type of research is often used as ammo from the cio camp. I have spent so much of my child's baby and toddlerhood feeling as if I were a good enough parent, if I just knew the right things to do to get my child to sleep everything would be better.


I agree with this. I think the article is talking about the majority of kids, but then it leaves those of us with kids in the minority feeling like crap. My kid doesn't sleep nearly as much as she should and never has. I even brought it up with her ped. She said some kids just need less sleep and to roll with it since I can't force her to sleep. When I hear mom's talking about how their kid sleeps 12 hours at night and then a 2-3 hour nap I just want to cry.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

My daughter isn't extreme, but she is definitely towards the lower end of the needs sleep scale. Between night and day she only needs about 10 hours and she's 20 months old. But she has the freedom to sleep whenever she wants and this is what she chooses. She is super cheerful, active, growing like a weed, and extremely advanced in most development. She just doesn't need as much sleep and that's ok. Don't feel bad, mamas.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

What I'd like to see result from this study is for school start-times to be changed. Instead of 7:30-3 with aftercare for kids who have working parents, let's have it from 10 to 5:30 with an option between a morning playtime or a nap room for kids with working parents.

Of course, now I get why Lola (from Charlie and Lola) has time for skipping rope and coloring in and the dozen other things she does with Lotta before school starts and after having breakfast. I was thinking they got up absurdly early,


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
What I'd like to see result from this study is for school start-times to be changed. Instead of 7:30-3 with aftercare for kids who have working parents, *let's have it from 10 to 5:30 with an option between a morning playtime or a nap room for kids with working parents.*

Of course, now I get why Lola has time for skipping rope and coloring in and the dozen other things she does with Lotta before school starts and after having breakfast. I was thinking they got up absurdly early,









Love this idea!! This would fit so much better with my family!

I'm not sure who Lola and Lotta are, but I wondered the same thing about Frances the badger in Bread and Jam for Frances. The whole family has time for a leisurely sit-down breakfast, and then Frances has time to skip rope at the bus stop.


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## S.Lee (Jan 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Crystal_R* 
I agree with this. I think the article is talking about the majority of kids, but then it leaves those of us with kids in the minority feeling like crap. My kid doesn't sleep nearly as much as she should and never has. I even brought it up with her ped. She said some kids just need less sleep and to roll with it since I can't force her to sleep. When I hear mom's talking about how their kid sleeps 12 hours at night and then a 2-3 hour nap I just want to cry.


Amen to that! Ds has never slept much. I am lucky if he gets 10hrs(he's 4) everyone elses 4yo is sleeping 12 hours. If I put him to sleep an hour early, he wakes up an hour early. So if he goes down at 7 he is up at 5am! Just wish I had some of his energy!!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Crystal_R* 
When I hear mom's talking about how their kid sleeps 12 hours at night and then a 2-3 hour nap I just want to cry.

Me, too! DS2 is/was a little bit like this, but neither of my olders ones were. DD2 doesn't seem to be shaping up to sleep a ton, either (although she sleeps quite well at night...aside from rocking on all fours, batting me with her head, for 30-60 minutes around 4:00 am). They just don't seem to need or want that much sleep. DS2 gets the most. He's 4.5 and goes to bed at 8:00 (or 9:00...lots of variables), gets up around 7:00 or 7:30 and still takes a nap at least a couple days a week.


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
What I'd like to see result from this study is for school start-times to be changed. Instead of 7:30-3 with aftercare for kids who have working parents, let's have it from 10 to 5:30 with an option between a morning playtime or a nap room for kids with working parents.

I have been a fan of this idea since, like, 1991. I remember hearing about sleep deficit in kids and how teenagers especially need more sleep, and suggestions went around about extending the school start time...but of course that never happened, and probably never will.

I actually quit high school after junior year SPECIFICALLY so I could go to the community college instead and take classes that started after 10:00.

Can you tell this issue is close to my heart?


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
I hate articles like this. I have tried everything in the world to get more sleep for my child (who often does seem tired and cranky) but as the saying goes "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." Articles and books telling me how my child would be better off with more sleep, make me want to pull my hair out. We have always been very consistent about bedtime with a great bedtime routine. But that doesn't mean dd falls asleep. There have been times she has layed in bed awake from 7pm until 11pm without falling asleep. She usually is unable to fall asleep for a nap, unless driven around for 30-40 minutes (which isn't always doable now that we have a baby as well) and even if we can get her to nap and fall asleep at a decent time, there is absolutely nothing we can do about the early wakings (often as early as 4 am). The guilt these types of articles have created for me is enormous. And like a pp I too think that this type of research is often used as ammo from the cio camp. I have spent so much of my child's baby and toddlerhood feeling as if I were a good enough parent, if I just knew the right things to do to get my child to sleep everything would be better.

I hear you. The biggest problem I have is DS DOES need more sleep, but I can't FORCE him to sleep, kwim? I've tried all the methods, but he's just like me, just like his grandpa (my dad)...can't turn his brain off and GO TO SLEEP! And how can I be mad at him when *I've* struggled with it all my life? Yet I see the difference when somehow he DOES get 12 hours sleep instead of 8-10; he's a much happier kid, has fewer behavior problems (he's prone to throwing things or hitting when he's tired) and has more energy. So while I KNOW he should be getting more sleep, what the heck can I do to make it happen? Not a whole lot. So yeah, I feel guilty too, and also a little hopeless.


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## Curlyfry7 (Jun 20, 2007)

I totally agree with Crystal_R and junipermuse. My DS is 3 1/3 and has ALWAYS gotten less sleep than recommended. We just dropped his nap in an attempt to get him to go to bed before 11:30pm -1:30am. He sleeps roughly 9-9.5 hours a day about 70% of the time, 10-10.5 hours about 20% of the time and 8-8.5 hours about 10% of the time. We have tried earlier bedtimes, later ones, no TV, TV, active days, calm days, etc etc. It doesn't seem to matter. I think he has slept 14 hours once in his life. Maybe a dozen times that he has slept 12 hours, most of these when he's been sick. I truly believe he is chronically tired but nothing we do seems to make any difference in how much he sleeps and it just makes more stress and conflict between us.

DD is 13.5 months old and isn't much better except she doesn't seem to be as cranky, which makes me think she actually needs less than DS (relatively) but isn't having as hard of a time meeting her needs. She generally gets between 10-12 hours total in a day, usually 8-9 at night (with SEVERAL wake-ups) then 1-2 hours in the day, with an occaisianal 3 hour nap (as long as she is in contact with me, that is! Otherwise she wouldn't sleep at all!)

I feel like a huge failure that I can't get my kids to sleep, when most other people I know have kids that are sleeping 12-14 hours per night and then 2-4 hours napping during the day depending on age. Not only would everyone else be so much more rested, my house wouldn't look the way it does!


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

For those who have children who don't sleep well-- in my experience this is usually dietary, somehow linked to allergies, food intolerances, and/or a candida overgrowth. Unfortunately, for us, cleaning up their diets hasn't helped completely-- a lot but not completely. So we also use a natural chewable supplement with 5-HTP and melatonin. My boys go to bed at 6:30-7:00 at night and wake up at about 6 in the morning, but they no longer nap during the day (the 3yo needs it but I can't make him).


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

Articles like this worry me - because how exactly are some parents supposed to force their children to get more sleep?... I have seen CIO advocates use articles like this to back up why CIO is just fine and dandy.

_I_ need more sleep too! lol - This is also one huge benefit of home educating and I feel lucky we can do this!


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:

And how can I be mad at him when *I've* struggled with it all my life? Yet I see the difference when somehow he DOES get 12 hours sleep instead of 8-10; he's a much happier kid, has fewer behavior problems (he's prone to throwing things or hitting when he's tired) and has more energy. So while I KNOW he should be getting more sleep, what the heck can I do to make it happen? Not a whole lot. So yeah, I feel guilty too, and also a little hopeless.
That's my daughter and me.

Thankfully my son seems to have inherited his dad's sleep patterns. They just go to bed and go to sleep, get up without much problem in the morning.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *journeymom* 
That's my daughter and me.

Thankfully my son seems to have inherited his dad's sleep patterns. They just go to bed and go to sleep, get up without much problem in the morning.

I've always had a horrible time getting to sleep (except for first trimesters of my pregnancies). I sleep like a log once I'm out, but it takes a long time to get there. I'm _so_ grateful that none of my kids have picked this up from me. DS1 and dd1 have never been kids who need/get a huge amount of sleep, but they've never had any trouble getting there, either.


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## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LionTigerBear* 
For those who have children who don't sleep well-- in my experience this is usually dietary, somehow linked to allergies, food intolerances, and/or a candida overgrowth. Unfortunately, for us, cleaning up their diets hasn't helped completely-- a lot but not completely. So we also use a natural chewable supplement with 5-HTP and melatonin. My boys go to bed at 6:30-7:00 at night and wake up at about 6 in the morning, but they no longer nap during the day (the 3yo needs it but I can't make him).

Diet is one possible explanation. Another is an active mind that doesn't turn itself off. I've seen wakefulness appear on lists of characteristics for gifted children, and it's a fairly common for parents of gifted children to comment about it.

I'm glad to see a few posts from parents of children who don't sleep a lot. I was thinking I was an oddball. It can be difficult with a wakeful child - not the least because there's an expectation that a child will sleep a lot if only you were doing all the right things.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Yes, having two kids with different sleep needs has been eye opening.

For example, if my daughter doesn't get enough sleep one night she doesn't necessarily go to sleep any faster or easier the next night. If my son doesn't get enough sleep one night his brain will be ready to go to sleep that much earlier the next night.


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## LauraLoo (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LionTigerBear* 
For those who have children who don't sleep well-- in my experience this is usually dietary, somehow linked to allergies, food intolerances, and/or a candida overgrowth.

Sleep issues can also mean dietary deficiencies, not necessarily due to lack of good food, but problems with absorption of necessary minerals. It can also be due to stress and anxiety or even side effects from medication. And then there are kids that do require less sleep than others.

I do agree with the author's on their main point, though. I can get by with very, very little sleep for quite a long time and *think* I function quite well. When I get a good stretch of "normal" sleep, I feel 100% better. I've seen it with my dc's, as well. My ds suffered from side effects from an allegy med that gave him restless sleep (at best) and chronic nightmares. Took him off the med - better sleep. Added in some minerals that his diet was likely deficient in (magnesium) - better sleep. Then we uncovered a hidden food allergy, removed it from his diet and began a gut healing treatment. He is now sleeping so much better and functioning so much better, that I realize how negatively the lack of sleep was affecting him. This whole process took YEARS to figure out.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Not all people who need less sleep are deficient or bad or allergic. Human beings are not a one-size-fits-all species. There is variation in what each of us needs. That's ok. It's part of what makes us all so nifty awesome. My daughter has zero trouble going to sleep. When she wants to nap during the day she comes and finds me and asks for a nap (seriously--that was one of her earliest verbal requests) and she sleeps for as long as she wants to. She just doesn't need as much sleep as the 'average' toddler. That's ok and it doesn't mean I need to try and figure out what is wrong with her.


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## Snuzzmom (Feb 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *journeymom* 
I'm not sure who Lola and Lotta are, but I wondered the same thing about Frances the badger in Bread and Jam for Frances. The whole family has time for a leisurely sit-down breakfast, and then Frances has time to skip rope at the bus stop.

... and I don't know who Frances is, but I've thought the same thing about the Cat family in the Richard Scarry books. They clean their whole house BEFORE school and work? And the clock says 8:00AM when they're eating breakfast, BEFORE THAT?!?









I'd love a later school start time.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aufilia* 
Thanks for sharing. I'm a big believer in sleep but it's good to be reminded why it's so valuable.


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## Thalia (Apr 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Llyra* 
People are often very down on me, because of how careful I am to protect my kids' bedtimes. My kids seem to go to bed much earlier, and sleep much longer, than other kids that we've gotten acquainted with, and parents think I'm weird.

I have a few friends who are like this, and I think it's great and applaud them giving their kids the sleep times they need.

BUT...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
I hate articles like this. I have tried everything in the world to get more sleep for my child (who often does seem tired and cranky) but as the saying goes "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." Articles and books telling me how my child would be better off with more sleep, make me want to pull my hair out. We have always been very consistent about bedtime with a great bedtime routine. But that doesn't mean dd falls asleep. There have been times she has layed in bed awake from 7pm until 11pm without falling asleep. She usually is unable to fall asleep for a nap, unless driven around for 30-40 minutes (which isn't always doable now that we have a baby as well) and even if we can get her to nap and fall asleep at a decent time, there is absolutely nothing we can do about the early wakings (often as early as 4 am). The guilt these types of articles have created for me is enormous. And like a pp I too think that this type of research is often used as ammo from the cio camp. I have spent so much of my child's baby and toddlerhood feeling as if I were a good enough parent, if I just knew the right things to do to get my child to sleep everything would be better.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Curlyfry7* 
I totally agree with Crystal_R and junipermuse. I feel like a huge failure that I can't get my kids to sleep, when most other people I know have kids that are sleeping 12-14 hours per night and then 2-4 hours napping during the day depending on age. Not only would everyone else be so much more rested, my house wouldn't look the way it does!


Quote:


Originally Posted by *rightkindofme* 
Not all people who need less sleep are deficient or bad or allergic. Human beings are not a one-size-fits-all species. There is variation in what each of us needs. That's ok. It's part of what makes us all so nifty awesome. My daughter has zero trouble going to sleep. When she wants to nap during the day she comes and finds me and asks for a nap (seriously--that was one of her earliest verbal requests) and she sleeps for as long as she wants to. She just doesn't need as much sleep as the 'average' toddler. That's ok and it doesn't mean I need to try and figure out what is wrong with her.

This has been my experience. We do all the same things that my friends with kids who go to sleep early do, but many times it just does not work. DD shows no other signs of having food allergies or intolerances. Short of drugging DD or doing CIO, I see no way to get more sleep for her. We have tried and tried and tried. What we end up with is a mama and toddler, both in tears and angry. How is that good for anyone?


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## BetsyS (Nov 8, 2004)

My dh and I are on the high end of sleep needs. Always have been. So, it's normal for us to go to bed around 9 (he gets up at 5; I get up at 5:30). And, on the weekends, we still go to bed around 9, but we sleep in (one of us on each day) until 8 or so.

So, it's really easy for us to put our kids to bed at 7. That only leaves 2 hours between them nad us, you know?

I think if parents go to bed at 12 or 1, then putting the kids to bed at 7 seems a bit unreasonably early. If my kids stayed up until 9:00, I might die.


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## ~Katie~ (Mar 18, 2007)

We are all over the sleep spectrum at our house. Aside from typical age-related sleep regression, DS has always needed a lot of sleep. He goes to bed at 7 and gets up around 7:30 after sleeping a full night, he also takes a 1 1/5 - 2 hour nap most days. DD on the other hand can go, go, go and wakes up all night long and gets up ridiculously early. Does she need more sleep? Most definitely, but I have yet to figure out how to get her to do it. I constantly fight the urge to go to bed late and sleep in late, but I'm one of those people who needs a lot of sleep to function.

I take the article to mean that parents need to consider how work/school/preschool/extracurricular activities are interfering with their child's sleep and how it influences their behavior and performance.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LauraLoo* 
Sleep issues can also mean dietary deficiencies, not necessarily due to lack of good food, but problems with absorption of necessary minerals. It can also be due to stress and anxiety or even side effects from medication. And then there are kids that do require less sleep than others.

Yup. DS1 slept less than any other baby I'd met at that time. He was exclusively breastfed. He slept very well at night (woke up, nursed and got a diaper, went back to sleep - start to finish was about 9 or 9.5 hours, with 1 or 2 short breaks in the middle). He napped...but only in about 10 minute stretches. That was it. Most of my friends with babies (not many at that time, I'll admit) couldn't believe it. He just never slept that much.

Now, he's a teenager, and he doesn't want to sleep, even when he should...and then doesn't want to get up. *sigh*


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KatieJD* 
I take the article to mean that parents need to consider how work/school/preschool/extracurricular activities are interfering with their child's sleep and how it influences their behavior and performance.

This is actually a big part of why I decided to homeschool. With the school schedule taken out of the mix, meeting everyone's sleep needs is a lot simpler. It's still not easy (too many people!), but it's _easier_.


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## ~Katie~ (Mar 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
This is actually a big part of why I decided to homeschool. With the school schedule taken out of the mix, meeting everyone's sleep needs is a lot simpler. It's still not easy (too many people!), but it's _easier_.

I agree. I hated getting up at 6:30 for school and was consistently late almost every day my junior and senior year because I overslept.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
I don't think it's justifying CIO. Sleep is very important. When I don't sleep enough I feel depressed and I overeat. When my kids don't sleep enough they are cranky, emotional and unreasonable.

but some kids just don't sleep well.







Most babies do not and some toddlers and even preschoolers and older don't sleep well. My oldest DD has always been a terrible sleeper, very hyper by nature. However, she is not obese and isn't any less intelligent than the next child.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68* 
but some kids just don't sleep well.







Most babies do not and some toddlers and even preschoolers and older don't sleep well. My oldest DD has always been a terrible sleeper, very hyper by nature. However, she is not obese and isn't any less intelligent than the next child.

Well I bet my dd is similar to your oldest. She is very active both mentally and physically and at 3 years old is still a pretty bad sleeper (she still rarely sleeps through the night). And she is incredibly bright and very lean so her intelligence and weight have not been negatively affected by her lack of sleep. But I often feel that her behavior has been. On the rare occasions when she is well rested she more easily goes with the flow (though she's never totally easy-going) and she throws less tantrums.


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## Curlyfry7 (Jun 20, 2007)

RE: the food allergies etc idea.....We considered that for quite a while actually. (My DH has a hard time believing it, but...) DS was dairy intolerant as a baby, until about 15 months old. So even after that we cut dairy out for roughly 4 months-with absolutely no change in his sleep. And now, with absolutely NO other signs of a problem, I wouldn't even know where to start. Over the years I've kept an informal idea in my head of what we eat to try and see trends, but there hasn't been any.

I also haven't seen any evidence of decreased intelligence, or obesity, but totally agree with the behavior- DS is very inflexible and high strung and intense and while a lot of that is temperament, there is also a component due to chronic lack of sleep.


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## 3*is*magic (Sep 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BetsyS* 
My dh and I are on the high end of sleep needs. Always have been. So, it's normal for us to go to bed around 9 (he gets up at 5; I get up at 5:30). And, on the weekends, we still go to bed around 9, but we sleep in (one of us on each day) until 8 or so.

So, it's really easy for us to put our kids to bed at 7. That only leaves 2 hours between them nad us, you know?

I think if parents go to bed at 12 or 1, then putting the kids to bed at 7 seems a bit unreasonably early. If my kids stayed up until 9:00, I might die.









I don't see how the gap between the child's bedtime and the parent's bedtime is significant. If the child is going to bed at 7 and sleeping until 7 the morning, I don't think thats "unreasonably early" - it's simply meeting their need for sleep. If the child needs 12 hours and the entire family is in a position to start their day at 9 am, then sure, keep 'em up until 9. But if the child is going to sleep at 7 so they can get their 12 hours and the parents require less - say 6 or 7 hours - and the entire family needs to get going at 7 am, then the child _should_ be in bed well before the parents.

(BetsyS, the following is NOT directed at you, it's just an at-large rant







)

I hate the attitude that parents who put their kids to bed early are doing so because they're not interested in parenting after 8 pm. I put my kids to bed early because they _need_ the sleep. Keeping them up would be NOT meeting their needs - and that would be very _anti_-AP. Yet I see many MDC posts that imply that parents who do maintain very firm boundaries for sleep are somehow _less_ AP. OP, thanks for starting this thread and shedding a little light on a different POV.

[/at-large rant]


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Curlyfry7* 
RE: the food allergies etc idea.....We considered that for quite a while actually. (My DH has a hard time believing it, but...) DS was dairy intolerant as a baby, until about 15 months old. So even after that we cut dairy out for roughly 4 months-with absolutely no change in his sleep. And now, with absolutely NO other signs of a problem, I wouldn't even know where to start. Over the years I've kept an informal idea in my head of what we eat to try and see trends, but there hasn't been any.

I also haven't seen any evidence of decreased intelligence, or obesity, but totally agree with the behavior- DS is very inflexible and high strung and intense and while a lot of that is temperament, there is also a component due to chronic lack of sleep.

I share as part of the problem-solving process, my kids' sleep improved by cutting out their food allergens, but they also needed other things. DD needs magnesium every night, even now that she's 6 and we've been supplementing since she was just shy of 2. DS needs melatonin.


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## lonegirl (Oct 31, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gcgirl* 
And this has ticked me off all my life. I need a lot of sleep and I don't do well in the mornings, so having to start school around 7:30 did me a huge disservice. I would seriously consider homeschooling my kids if they have the same sleeping/waking problems I did, just for this reason.

Wow so early? We started between 9-915a. 730 was when my mom was making sure I was up and ready as I had to head out to catch the bus at 810 (20-30 min bus ride for highschool) and elementary I had to be out there by 830 or so.


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## major_mama11 (Apr 13, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
There have been times she has layed in bed awake from 7pm until 11pm without falling asleep. She usually is unable to fall asleep for a nap, unless driven around for 30-40 minutes (which isn't always doable now that we have a baby as well) and even if we can get her to nap and fall asleep at a decent time, there is absolutely nothing we can do about the early wakings (often as early as 4 am). The guilt these types of articles have created for me is enormous. And like a pp I too think that this type of research is often used as ammo from the cio camp. I have spent so much of my child's baby and toddlerhood feeling as if I were a good enough parent, if I just knew the right things to do to get my child to sleep everything would be better.

Oh wow, this sounds a lot like my 4yo DD (the lying in bed for hours unable to sleep part). It doesn't matter what we do, the earliest she will go to sleep is 10 pm, and she has been this way for most of her life.

In my DD's case, she still requires a lot of sleep (11-13 hrs per day to be at her best), and doesn't really have a problem getting that many hours, except that her body clock seems to be wired toward going to bed at 11:30 pm, and then getting up around 10:30 am. Luckily, we don't usually have anywhere to go in the mornings, and yes, this is part of why I am homeschooling.

I always wonder what I am doing wrong that she won't fall asleep earlier, and sometimes get so frustrated that she isn't wired to sleep earlier like all the other little kids I know. DH and I were always very much early-to-bed, early-to-rise types before we had kids. DS (9 mos) is an early-to-bed baby, but DD just isn't wired that way, apparently.


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