# Just at a loss with my six year old.



## mamaecho (Mar 31, 2011)

Alright ladies, I'm in desperate need.

We are relatively new to gentle discipline so I will say I still don't know the tricks of the trade.

My oldest son Riley has decided to really start using his words to hurt me, his brother, his dad, etc. Today at Target after I told him he couldn't have something he kept yelling that I was so dumb, I was the dumbest mom ever, etc. I am at a loss on what to do.. Obviously this doesn't hurt my feelings as I know he's just frustrated, but I don't know how to curb the behavior. I would rather him honor me with his words but I don't know how to accomplish this.. HELP!


----------



## Thandiwe (May 14, 2007)

I don't totally agree with everything she says, but Naomi Aldort's book "Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves" has helped me some in this area. I cannot guarantee this will work, but coming at the problem from that perspective, have you tried validating his feelings right then? Instead of denying him and shushing him up (which is so tempting when they are being so, er, um, "pleasant"?? lol), what about speaking right to that anger. Perhaps this:

"You're really mad at me right now, huh?" "You must think I'm dumb because I won't give you what you want." "This must be really upsetting to you." And then let him talk about it. It is our job - and it's not an easy one! - to teach our kids to use their words to express feelings articulately instead of barbarically. It is so much easier to say, "You're stupid!" or "You're so dumb!" but much more work to say, "I am really mad right now that I can't have that toy!"

Perhaps even try talking to him once he's simmered down a bit and explain exactly why he can't have that toy and talk about alternatives. With my boys, I might say: "Y'know, we don't have a lot of extra money right now, so I just can't get that toy. I know you want it, but we can't always get fun stuff." Whining and fussing would ensue, to which I would probably answer, "Why don't we go home and add it to a wish list? I know birthdays and holidays are coming up where it might be fun to get it," or, "Maybe you'd like to do a few more chores/tasks at home to earn some extra $ so you can buy that yourself?" if you're doing chores/allowances.

Good luck. It is very difficult. There are so many great books out there; I'd totally urge you to look into reading some of the gentle discipline books out there.







Some days are better than others, even for those of us who've been doing this longer. And sometimes, nothing works, lol!


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Ouch. That sounds really hard. I would definitely try modelling with him, and just don't react to the negativity negatively.

Something like: "I'm sorry you feel that way. I know it is hard to hear no. It isn't no forever, just no for now." And I find it is helpful to hug my son when he gets like this. It usually leads to him crying uncontrolablly, and sometimes especially when disappointment has been added to other emotional/physical issues (frustration, school troubles, hunger, triedness etc) it's a real release.

When DS blows up with me with "I hate you!" or "I'm never going to be a part your family again!" I get down on his level, hold his hand and say "what's really going on? 'cause I don't think it's about a toy. I'll put the toy on your list for Christmas, okay? Now what's up, pal?" I usually have to get down shoulder to shoulder on a bench or a curb to get it out of him (he tends to communicate better side by side rather than face on) but eventually after whining about the toy, and me and how nobody listens to him and he never gets what he wants he gets down to the root.

It's tough, and some days (ugh especially at a place like Target) I just feel like turning around and saying "Yeah, well, the feeling's mutual, pal!" Of course I don't say it, but sometimes I think it...hard. Knowing that it's not about you, but it's about feeling powerless and feeling like no one hears you, helps me to find the empathy I need to get through the murk and mire and find the little boy I love.


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

BTW, the power of the word is a fascinating thing to discover and he may justbe experimenting. Give him the tools to communicate without violence and give him the chance to see how effective that is and he may never turn back to violent communication again...well almost never ;-)

Check out CNVC.org...all I ever needed to know about gentle discipline has its foundations there.


----------



## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Something that always works with my kids (from "playful parenting") is "you can call me dumb, I really don't care, but don't ever,EVER call me ___________!!!! (something silly like loopy-doopy or something). Then act horrified when they call you the new "bad word" and go from there.This game always stops the disrespectful words and puts everyone in a better mood.


----------



## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

I cut that off immediately. "that's rude and unacceptable. Go in your room and think about a better way we can talk". It just doesn't get any airtime.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I would say something like, "It's ok to be angry, but it's not ok to talk to me like that. I don't call you dumb and I expect you to not call me dumb as well. Next time try saying something like 'that made me really angry' instead of saying hurtful things.". At 3 I might try playful parenting, but at 6 I think this is a different issue.

The important thing is to stop and say something every single time he uses language like that until he gets out of that habit. It will take effort but it will help him in his interactions with other people as well and throughout his life, so it's worth the time.


----------



## girlmeetsknitting (Aug 21, 2010)

A six year old is totally capable of handling disappointment without becoming verbally abusive. In that situation the very first time he made a rude comment I would say something like " That's not okay. I don't call you names and you don't need to be calling me names". If the behavior continued I would leave the store right then and there. Then the next trip to the store, he would not be invited to join you. I would simply explain "Last time you screamed and called me names, and I didn't like that, maybe we'll try again later". Then simply go. This way you are teaching him that verbal abuse does not pay off, and it can have lasting consequences. I would try not to get into a verbal discussion with him when the abuse is taking place. Let him know its not okay, and you will not tollerate it. At a more peaceful time its a good idea to go over appropriate responses to disappointment. Give different senarios, tell stories, roll play, brainstorm solutions etc. Good Luck!


----------



## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *D_McG*
> 
> I cut that off immediately. "that's rude and unacceptable. Go in your room and think about a better way we can talk". It just doesn't get any airtime.


Us, too. We do a lot for our children and we don't deserve to be treated that way.


----------



## Jenni1894 (Apr 1, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *girlmeetsknitting*
> 
> A six year old is totally capable of handling disappointment without becoming verbally abusive. In that situation the very first time he made a rude comment I would say something like " That's not okay. I don't call you names and you don't need to be calling me names". If the behavior continued I would leave the store right then and there. Then the next trip to the store, he would not be invited to join you. I would simply explain "Last time you screamed and called me names, and I didn't like that, maybe we'll try again later". Then simply go. This way you are teaching him that verbal abuse does not pay off, and it can have lasting consequences. I would try not to get into a verbal discussion with him when the abuse is taking place. Let him know its not okay, and you will not tollerate it. At a more peaceful time its a good idea to go over appropriate responses to disappointment. Give different senarios, tell stories, roll play, brainstorm solutions etc. Good Luck!












My son is 6 and has uttered "those" words ONCE. He was sent to his room. He threw a fit for what seemed like hours and then came down apologizing sincerely! I don't remember the cause...I think I told him to clean up!!

So he knows better at this point and I'd just leave the store and he would lose a privilege (computer, TV time, bike, whatever) once we got home also.

My 3 year old when thru an I don't like you stage. And she has no issues with letting you know how she feels about things!!! I handled her outbursts exactly as PP described. She has not uttered those words to me or her brother in a very long time. You just have to be consistent and they will get it.


----------



## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

I sometimes use the playful approach, sometimes the hard lines.

For example the other day DD was belligerently nagging me about something she wanted (and had been respectfully and apologetically told she couldn't have) and i was asking her to please leave my room (i was trying to put the baby down to nap) and she slammed the door. I immediately yelled that she come back RIGHT NOW and told her in no uncertain terms that she would NOT be slamming the doors and that she would afford me the respect i afford her or she would go to her room. She immediately apologized.

Last week she began telling me she hated me, and i told her i loved her but i hated her stinky foot. Then i grabbed one foot, sniffed it, and said "lovely" in a funny voice, then repeated with the other and said instead "stinky". She giggled and we moved on. The main difference was that i knew she was very hungry, waiting for her dad to come (he'd been unexpectedly delayed after telling her he'd be there a certain time) and was feeling out of sorts still after a virus she was still coughing from.

So sometimes leeway helps and sometimes a clear boundary does. It just depends in our house what is going down beforehand.


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *D_McG*
> 
> I cut that off immediately. "that's rude and unacceptable. Go in your room and think about a better way we can talk". It just doesn't get any airtime.


So, just out of curiosity, what happens if your kids CAN'T think of a better way to say what they're feeling?

I have told DS (who was writing words with creative spelling by 4) to write it down in a letter. His letter was pretty angry, but it helped him calm down and think rationally (for a four year old).

On a side note: I am really impressed by the number of moms here who never yell angry things to their friends or family and are so in control of their feelings all the time that they never ever say rude things they don't mean. It must make it so much easier to show your kids how to express themselves appropriately, and peacefully when you lead by such glowing example.

What's your trick?


----------



## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakeber*
> 
> So, just out of curiosity, what happens if your kids CAN'T think of a better way to say what they're feeling?
> 
> ...


He'll learn! We're all learning all the time. There are repercussions for all of us when we are out of control and rude. Even if I wanted to (which I don't) I couldn't engage in some playful parenting exercise if he is spewing hateful things at me. No way.


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Even if I wanted to (which I don't) I couldn't engage in some playful parenting exercise if he is spewing hateful things at me. No way.


I couldn't really ever get it up for playful parenting either...not even at the best of times. But I would worry about the reprecussions of shutting down communication at a moment when my kid is clearly freaking out...he may learn not to talk like that, but I am not sure he'll learn how to really communicate effectively if I only allow nice communication.

So, Mamaecho, I think it might be a good idea to think about how you would like to be treated if you were out of control and losing it.

A few weeks ago I had a USB virus situation about two hours before a major presentation that I had spent seven hours preparing a Power Point for. I sat in the staff room cursing out the computer under my breath and when my co-worker asked what was wrong, and I told her on the verge of tears and she said "well just call IT, I'm sure they can fix it." I lost my mind and said some pretty rude and horrible things about her, about the IT department, about the school in general and their sucky computer system...I was like a verbal cannon of ire pointed straight at her innocent face.

Do you know what my co-worker did? She put her hand on my shoulder and kissed my cheek and hugged me and said "I'm sorry. I hate when I have days like that." and she gave my hand a squeeze and when I went out to the balcony to cry, she followed me with a cup of tea and listened to me crying (and apologizing profusely for everything I said and how I was behaving etc.) and she helped me calm down and think of a plan for how to fix my immediate problem.

She didn't deserve my outburst, and I certainly didn't deserve her kindness or compassion after the things I said. But, it was EXACTLY how I would like someone to treat my children if they were ever as upset as I was then.

I try to use that sort of behavior as my benchmark for how to handle my kids outbursts of abuse. We all have moments we aren't proud of, and sometimes a cooling off moment is a good thing, but people explode for a reason, and if you just shut down communication at the first sign of trouble, how can you find out what that reason is?

Abuse is NOT okay, and words really can hurt, but everyone's words mean something and it's a good idea to find out what that really is before we take it too personally and shut down the lines of communication entirely.


----------



## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakeber*
> 
> I couldn't really ever get it up for playful parenting either...not even at the best of times. But I would worry about the reprecussions of shutting down communication at a moment when my kid is clearly freaking out...he may learn not to talk like that, but I am not sure he'll learn how to really communicate effectively if I only allow nice communication.
> 
> Abuse is NOT okay, and words really can hurt, but everyone's words mean something and it's a good idea to find out what that really is before we take it too personally and shut down the lines of communication entirely.


I disagree that abuse is communication. I think you can absolutely shut down abusive communications and still help children articulate their feelings or needs in a postive and proactive way.

While what your co-worker did was (very) generous I don't know that it would be effective as a general parenting strategy for a kid who is testing limits because it misses the crucial step of teaching the child a better way to cope before (and possibly after) the frustration. As an adult you could probably connect the dots between your behaviour and the outcome, and make better choices down the road, but younger kids especially aren't developmentally able to always understand the consequences of their actions or the perspectives of others.

OP It is hard to offer advice without knowing how old your son is. In our house the response to something like that would be "It's okay to be angry. It's absolutely not okay to try to hurt someone because you feel angry. Do you want to talk to me about how you are feeling now or do you need some space to calm down first?" We have a set of 5 family rules which the kids were instrumental in writing and which include the rules be kind, and use your words to solve problems. We'd use both those rules as a jumping off point to talk about the behaviour, why it doesn't meet our family's expectations and what other strategies could be used to solve those problems.

hth

Karen


----------



## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I suggest talking to him when you are both calm, and before the next incident, about it being okay to be angry but not okay to say things to hurt other people and it isn't okay to yell in a store because it disturbs the other people in the store. I have always walked my dd out to the car when she misbehaves in the store, or at least offered her the choice between calming down and going to the car (something she knows I will follow through on), when she needs to regain control of her body in the store so she doesn't disturb other shoppers. When she is calm we go back inside and finish our shopping. At home we have a rule about not disturbing the peace in the rooms we share as a family so she has to choose a place to be alone that isn't for everyone to be in peacefully (bedroom or bathroom) to yell and say mean things. Along with that though I try to always be there for her to work to find a compromise and to listen to her when she wants to talk. I empathize a lot, we talk about feelings a lot, I have taught my dd to how to express uncomfortable emotions like anger in appropriate ways (and she has done so for years), we talk after an inappropriate outburst about what the problem was and she makes a plan for expressing herself more appropriately the next time, and I try to find other things that we can do or remind her of the fun things we have coming up to take her mind off of what she can't have.

If you think this is more of a struggle with dealing with strong emotions and controlling them, versus him trying out the power of his words to get his way, then I think you should focus more on finding ways to help him identify emotions. What you describe sounds like something my dd started doing when she realized that when kids call each other mean the other kid changes their mind so they won't seem mean, if this is more about him melting down than acting out then sending him out to work through this on his own won't help because it will fuel the anger more. If you feel like your son really needs to work on identifying emotions and working with his emotions then I suggest the book Raising a Thinking Preteen because the author does a great job of giving easy to do exercises for emotional competency and setting the stage for talking things through while seeing the other persons point of view. If you can get a copy at your library I highly recommend it.


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Karenwith4*
> 
> I disagree that abuse is communication. I think you can absolutely shut down abusive communications and still help children articulate their feelings or needs in a postive and proactive way.
> 
> While what your co-worker did was (very) generous I don't know that it would be effective as a general parenting strategy for a kid who is testing limits because it misses the crucial step of teaching the child a better way to cope before (and possibly after) the frustration. As an adult you could probably connect the dots between your behaviour and the outcome, and make better choices down the road, but younger kids especially aren't developmentally able to always understand the consequences of their actions or the perspectives of others.


Can you explain the process you're describing here? I don't follow. I agree you can and should make the child aware that abuse is not acceptable and make the child aware that their behavior is unacceptable, but how do you make someone else stop being abusive? Tape their mouth shut? Lock them in their room until they promise to be nice? Send them to their room until they can think of a better way to express themselves? How can they be ready to work it out on their own, but not ready to have a heart to heart talk led with compassion, empathy and understanding? I don't follow. That seems very contradictory to me. Can you give me more details, because I can't wrap my head around how it is effective in anything but teaching a child NOT to express those feelings, rather than HOW to express those feelings and how to apologize for outbursts when they can and WILL happen throughout their lives.

Please just walk me through what happens if you have an out of control child, let's say my six year old who like everyone now and then has a bad day and he starts really losing it on everyone..."I hate my family, I hate gravity, you're all stupid, I hate these stupid rules!!!!" etc etc how would you handle that?

Because it SOUNDS very much like you're saying you should simply shuttle them to their room until they can be nice no matter how long it takes. Is that what you would hope for from people if you were having a meltdown? Or do you never have meltdowns and just expect your kids to get a grip and figure it out?

Because here is how I would handle it:

Hug the child and hold him close and tell him I love him very much and I know he is disappointed and sad and hurt. I would hug him until he was done crying and if I needed to walk away to regain my energy and strength because it was making me angry, I would, but then I'd go back to them until they had released it all. Then with a younger child *I would talk about choices we make, consequences* of those choices, *what made them angry*, and *strategies to help* them express anger better and more respectfully and how to apologize when we forget, and with an older child I would talk about what happened and work through an apology. This is definitely something that works for us. ETA: Obviously my Co-worker does not need to teach me these things, I know them already because of a life time of learning, but I think the *approach* of empathy and kindness rather than defensiveness and authority is important to our family. Do you see what I mean?

Like One Girl, we also have a rule about peaceful shared spaces so these hugs and conversations do happen in a bedroom or the office, rather than the living room.

Everything we do is communication of some form and can tell the observer what we feel, and what we want. Whether we like what is being said or how it is being said or how effective it is does not define communcation.


----------



## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakeber*
> 
> Can you explain the process you're describing here? I don't follow. I agree you can and should make the child aware that abuse is not acceptable and make the child aware that their behavior is unacceptable, but how do you make someone else stop being abusive? Tape their mouth shut? Lock them in their room until they promise to be nice? Send them to their room until they can think of a better way to express themselves? How can they be ready to work it out on their own, but not ready to have a heart to heart talk led with compassion, empathy and understanding? I don't follow. That seems very contradictory to me. Can you give me more details, because I can't wrap my head around how it is effective in anything but teaching a child NOT to express those feelings, rather than HOW to express those feelings and how to apologize for outbursts when they can and WILL happen throughout their lives.
> 
> ...


Sorry - I seem to have pissed you off but I don't really know why. And no I don't expect my kids to just get a grip and figure it out without my help. I don't however have kids who have ever lost it in such a way as to lash out abusively as a way of communicating what they are feeling. It's not something they see from me or their father and it's just not something that would occur to them. It's just not acceptable in our family. However that doesn't mean that they are locked in a room, or have their mouth taped shut







or not allowed to express their feelings. Quite the contrary. They get angry, frustrated, hurt etc - absolutely -we all do but that doesn't equate to expressing ourselves in ways that are deliberately hurtful to others as a result. My children regularly will express their hurt, anger, frustration etc - sometimes with yelling, sometimes with tears, sometimes with a door slam, but I honestly can't recall a child of mine ever saying that they hated me or their dad or a sibling in anger. They have no need to do that. Things may change in their teenage years -lol - my oldest is only just 13 now so we will see. I have a hard time imagining it though - even my daughter (10) who has diabetes and can often react with strong emotions and out of character if she is really low or high has never said those words to anyone in those circumstances.

However if they did we would tell them that's not an acceptable way to express whatever it is they are feeling because there is no place in a loving relationship for that kind of hurtfulness. And then we'd help them identify and express what they are actually feeling. It's not the feelings that are the problem - it's the way we express them that indicates emotional maturity. Anger is often a secondary emotion - and so if the frustration level is running high, or a child is feeling sensitive, or the energy is getting out of control I step in before they lose it. I try to be proactive in interrupting the escalation of those situations where a child is likely to feel out of control. The kids will help each other now with it, or come and get me if they sense one of them needs some help. I try to talk to them when I feel angry etc and let them see how I try handle it proactively.

We talk about strategies to help them "right their cup" before things get to the point where the only release is an explosion. We talk about the damaging effect of hurtful words and actions and that you can't ever take those things back. We talk about the fact that hurting someone else in anger doesn't solve anything and actually makes everyone feel worse. I have different strategies for each of my kids depending on their needs. Some need to be physically close to me or their dad to defuse, some need space, some need help with deep breaths, some need code words to remind them and make them aware of their feelings. We try and be proactive in giving them tools to identify and manage their feelings before they get to big to handle and also help them to make amends if they hurt someone.

There's a great book about raising emotionally intelligent children which has been really helpful in our family.

Hope that helps explain where I am coming from.

Karen


----------



## Subhuti (Feb 18, 2005)

I ignore outburts like that, because they dont seem to be a pattern.

I would try to hug them or hear them out.

Later i might say that name calling is not ok.

But if it became routine, i would set firm limits ... Leaving the store, time alone in their room etc.

Otoh, when my kids do it each other, i wil set a fimer limit, immediately. I can ignore the comments, but a child ... Its more toxic.

Good luck

Liz


----------



## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Karenwith4*
> 
> I disagree that abuse is communication. I think you can absolutely shut down abusive communications and still help children articulate their feelings or needs in a postive and proactive way.


I think what Hakeber is saying is that its more important to listen to what the child is trying to communicate rather than have it be your priority to shut down communication you don't like.

I'm surprised at some of the answers here, where the FIRST choice of the parent is to PUNISH: take him out of the store immediately. Don't take him to the store the next time you go. Even if its days later. Be sure to remind him why you are not taking him to the store days later. Make him go to his room and stay there until he can be nice. Nip this behavior in the bud. Let him know in no uncertain terms his behavior will not be tolerated. Ouch, ouch, ouch.

Why does our first response have to be "hurt him back so he'll learn?"

Isn't it always better, if you are going to err as a parent, to err on the side of being "too" loving or too understanding than to punish something you might not even have completely understood the motivation for?

I loved Habeker's example of the coworker who returned verbal abuse with kindness. If someone treated me that way, my value of that relationship would go way up, and I would work hard to honor that relationship in the future. I would do this because of the remembered kindness and caring and love that was shown to me. I would rather change my behavior out of what feels like a loving choice on my part than out of fear of what kind of punishment I might get. I would rather my 6 year old think about what words she is going to use when she is frustrated because she likes the harmony and love between us, and not because she's learned to be wary about what might happen to her if she screws up.


----------



## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

Quote:


> I'm surprised at some of the answers here, where the FIRST choice of the parent is to PUNISH: *take him out of the store immediately*. Don't take him to the store the next time you go. Even if its days later. Be sure to remind him why you are not taking him to the store days later. Make him go to his room and stay there until he can be nice. Nip this behavior in the bud. Let him know in no uncertain terms his behavior will not be tolerated. Ouch, ouch, ouch.
> 
> *Why does our first response have to be "hurt him back so he'll learn?"*


Leaving the store is a natural consequence. It is not punishment. If my son is screaming that he hates me and I am dumb because I won't give him something we leave. End of story. It isn't punishment, it is life. How does refusing to stand there and be verbally berated hurting the child so he'll learn?

Gentle Discipline isn't an excuse to walk all over people and avoid consequences at all costs.


----------



## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *oaktreemama*
> 
> Leaving the store is a natural consequence. It is not punishment. If my son is screaming that he hates me and I am dumb because I won't give him something we leave. End of story. It isn't punishment, it is life. How does refusing to stand there and be verbally berated hurting the child so he'll learn?
> 
> Gentle Discipline isn't an excuse to walk all over people and avoid consequences at all costs.


I also don't think leaving the store is a punishment. Making threats to not let the child shop again or not taking the child shopping next time would be. If I can't concentrate I can't shop. I'd ask DD, 5.5 years old, if she can handle shopping right now, so I can concentrate. I'd give her a choice of being helpful or I could come back alone when DH gets home. She usually chooses to quiet down or run around less (our shopping issues). She usually isn't rude or mean, but when she has been I point out that her words could hurt peoples feelings or that she's choosing rude words. I make rude behavior into an opportunity for instruction on how to be civil and how our choice of behavior shows the world what kind of person we are trying to be. I don't take it personally because she is still learning how to be civil and emotional reactions usually encourage rude behavior instead of discourage it. My DH sometimes does react emotionally to rude or rough behavior and then they grump or whine at each other. Calm is much more effective.


----------



## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie*
> 
> I think what Hakeber is saying is that its more important to listen to what the child is trying to communicate rather than have it be your priority to shut down communication you don't like.
> 
> ...


I think it is healthier to teach children how to identify and communicate what they truly need - rather than letting children (or adults) spew angry or hurtful things out of frustration and a lack of self awareness. I am willing to bet that Hakeber's co-worker was able to react the way she did because she's learned to identify and deal with the real emotions around her and has strategies in place to help both herself and others - which is what I would like for my kids. Letting them get in the habbit of over-reacting or being hurtful isn't doing them any favours. I don't want my child(ren) to learn the lesson that abusive language is communication - it's not IMO. Abuse is about power and (lack of) control, and laying the groundwork early on that those kinds of comments are excusable because they are said in anger is not healthy and that's why it is important to "nip it in the bud". I don't think my children feel they can't express their emotions. What I am trying to do is help them find healthy ways to do that, that leaves everyone's dignity in tact and which help them get what they really need. Hurtful words get in the way of that.

And I think removing a child from a situation where they and or their parents feel overwhelmed and unable to cope effectively with both the anger and the underlying cause isn't punishment - it's smart parenting if the motives are intentionally considerate of the child's needs. Depending on the child and the situation I can see not taking them to the store in the future although in our family instead we'd do some prep work about expectations and try and set the kids up for success by going when they are well rested, well fed and in a good place.


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Karenwith4*
> 
> Sorry - I seem to have pissed you off but I don't really know why. And no I don't expect my kids to just get a grip and figure it out without my help. I don't however have kids who have ever lost it in such a way as to lash out abusively as a way of communicating what they are feeling. It's not something they see from me or their father and it's just not something that would occur to them. It's just not acceptable in our family. However that doesn't mean that they are locked in a room, or have their mouth taped shut
> 
> ...


No no, you haven't pissed me off at all! I'm genuinely curious and trying to understand. So thank you for addressing my questions so openly. In fact we're not doing it differently at all, we're just using different words. Thanks for clearing that up! I was confused. I promise you, I'm not pissed off. It's just the native new yorker in me that gets a little er...sensationalistic -D) when I'm trying to get to the bottom of something or figure something out.

ETA: do you really mean that when you say you can't take back hurtful words? We have a strict policy in our house of ALWAYS being allowed to take back hurtful words, given a sincere apology and genuine admitance of having lost the plot. I find in my social relationships people are very forgiving of hurtful words and actions and we can almost always restore justice if our actions or words hurt others with restorative actions and words. Just curious, do you really mean that?


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Okay...just one more question:

How is listening to the child and talking to them with understanding and compassion, mutally exclusive of stopping abusive behavior and teaching them to make better choices? How does listening with empathy and hugs equate standing there allowing them to abuse and berate you? I don't get it. I assure you I don't let my son abuse me and anymore if he has an outburst (which might be like once a year or so, much like his mom and dad) he catches himself immediately, with one raised eyebrow of shock from his dad or I, and breathes deeply to try again in a nicer way with a sincere apology to boot (which is better than I can say for his dad or myself at times!).

As for consequences, I might leave a store when my son is screaming (which he hasn't done since he was about 4 BTW) because a change of venue can be a miracle cure for a tantrum, but I took a hard look one day when he was about 6 mos, and realized NO ONE GIVES A TINY RAT'S PATOOKY about his screaming and carrying on except for me, so mostly I just didn't sweat it and chose instead to talk him through the screaming...but sometimes, if he was REALLY nuts, we'd go outside or even go home because part of my job as a parent is to realize when it is just too stressful for my kid to be out in public. And I might not take him the next time, not because he was bad, and I definitely wouldn't tell him that was why (no judgement, just not my style), but because I didn't want to take a sleepy hungry toddler on a stress inducing shopping trip when I KNEW the inevitable outcome. So I don't see it as a punishment for him not to come (like he really wants to go shopping with me, c'mon, who likes to go shopping when they have no money and no spending power?!) but as me having learned my lesson the hard way.

I guess can see why people use Time Outs for verbal abuse, but I have not found it to be effective in the goals I am trying to reach with my children. Time Ins have been much more effective for building empathy and emotional development in terms of understanding choices and the power of their words and how to express their real needs to me. Time Ins also have afforded me the opportunity to be a better mentalist with my kids, so to speak. I learn so much more about his cues and what's going on I can practice the old adage of an ounce of prevention, ya know? So when my kid asks for a toy and doesn't immediately suggest of his own accord that we write it down on the wish list as we have been doing for about three years now, but instead starts whining "but everyone at school has them and why, why won't YOUUU..." I say "Sounds like you need a snack!" and make an immediate detour to the food court, or the sample girls, or open a bag of something in the cart, and get that boy's blood sugar up, STAT, and I do my best to make the shop a quick one if I can, so we can go do something fun as an unexpected reward for not allowing boredom or hunger to ruin our day.

Every kid learns differently, though. You have to do what's right for YOUR kids and YOUR family.


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie*
> 
> I think what Hakeber is saying is that *its more important to listen to what the child is trying to communicate* rather than have it be your priority to shut down communication you don't like.
> 
> ...


Yes yes to all the bolded stuff! Especially the not understanding the motivation part. There have been times when out of anger or defensiveness I have sent DS to his room, and almost every time I have seriously regretted it and felt like such a shmuck once I got the bottom of it and realized what he was really dealing with.







The last thing he needed was to be alone. DH and I have sort of made a pact now to never shut down the lines of communication until we know what's really going on, even if on rare ocassions it means sitting quietly holding DS tightly while he rants at us. I don't find it teaches him we are permissive of abuse at all. I am sure if it did, he would have gotten worse at expressing his needs over the years rather than better, no?


----------



## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakeber*
> 
> No no, you haven't pissed me off at all! I'm genuinely curious and trying to understand. So thank you for addressing my questions so openly. In fact we're not doing it differently at all, we're just using different words. Thanks for clearing that up! I was confused. I promise you, I'm not pissed off. It's just the native new yorker in me that gets a little er...sensationalistic -D) when I'm trying to get to the bottom of something or figure something out.
> 
> ETA: do you really mean that when you say you can't take back hurtful words? We have a strict policy in our house of ALWAYS being allowed to take back hurtful words, given a sincere apology and genuine admitance of having lost the plot. I find in my social relationships people are very forgiving of hurtful words and actions and we can almost always restore justice if our actions or words hurt others with restorative actions and words. Just curious, do you really mean that?


I really mean that you can't undo hurtful words or actions. It's not the same thing as forgiving them and I help my kids make that distinction.

I read a great story once and I read it to my kids about a granfather who taught his grandson that instead of saying/doing mean and hurtful things in anger, he should go and pound nails in an old board. And when his grandson was calm he would have him pull the nails out to illustrate that what you do in anger, in the heat of the moment, can't be undone, even if you are sorry for them later, and even if someone forgives you because those actions stay with you and with the person you hurt.

If for example, I was your co-worker, I would hope that I could have acted as kindly as she did. And that I could understand what was causing your frustration and forgive whatever unkind things you did. But the effects of your reaction towards her, and her experience of how you handled your anger and frustration will stay with her, even if she has forgiven you. Our actions have repercussions. And hurtful angry comments are damaging, even if they are forgiven. Our family may give us more leeway, understanding the complexities of who we are more completely. But friends, neighbours, co-workers, the general public, don't have those same commitments to us. I want my kids to be able to aspire to kind behaviour regardless of who they are interacting with.


----------



## number572 (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakeber*
> 
> ETA: do you really mean that when you say you can't take back hurtful words? We have a strict policy in our house of ALWAYS being allowed to take back hurtful words, given a sincere apology and genuine admitance of having lost the plot. I find in my social relationships people are very forgiving of hurtful words and actions and we can almost always restore justice if our actions or words hurt others with restorative actions and words. Just curious, do you really mean that?


I can't comment on the OP b'c I don't have a 6 year old. But I wanted to respond to this question. I also think that being allowed to go out of control and say whatever flies out of your mouth in a fit is not always going to be able to be taken back. I'll give an example of my mother. She would go into several hour long screaming rages a few times per week directed at my sisters and me, then come back an hour later and either apologize while crying or turn it around and guilt us into feeling so sorry for her that WE ended up apologizing for "getting her so upset". All of my sisters and I have a great bit of disrespect for how she handled her own emotions and each of us had problems learning the hard way that you can't just fly off the handle and say nasty or hurtful things to others, expecting them to simply brush it off as your bad mood.

It seems more helpful to a kid to learn how to recognize when they are upset and think thru their emotions and learn ways of communication that don't involve angry outbursts or saying things that you'll even need to apologize for later. If it is so bad that an apology and forgiveness will be needed, practice very hard on catching it before it leaves your mouth at all, b'c many people will not be okay with being expected to handle someone else's out of control behavior.


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Karenwith4*
> 
> I really mean that you can't undo hurtful words or actions. It's not the same thing as forgiving them and I help my kids make that distinction.
> 
> ...


I've read that story. I like it. I'm not sure I see the moral the same as you. I read it as how hard it is to undo the damage done, not that it can't BE undone. I am sure my friend will always remember how I reacted on the day that my USB contracted a virus on the same day as my period started, I had a presentation to do in front of 200 people to be followed by a presentation to 250 people plus their parents and the entire school, and the day I had to deal with three sick teachers in my department being absent and arranging all their covers. I hope everyone remembers that! I don't think many people would have handled that with grace.









I also remember the day that she had a broken ankle, (she was born with only one hand) and was balancing her books, her coffee and her crutches at the top of a set of stairs and when her folder dropped down the center spreading her papers all over the stairs and the two floors below, she exploded into rageful tears and nearly knocked me down the stair case, but I don't consider it damage what happened then. On the contrary, I sort of took it as a compliment that she felt comfortable enough to blow up around me. I helped her with her books and papers, and got two guys to help carry her the rest of the way to staff room, and I brought her things in, and we sat down and talked about it over tea. She'd had a rough day, too. It happens, and what *I* remember most, is that we're all human.

To go back to the analogy, nail holes are not necessarily damage, they are often proof that you've been loving and living and had real relationships with real people who have their own nail holes, too.

I think inherently human beings as social creature aspire to be good, to be better at communicating needs, and at pleasing people but I think it's important too, to learn that we are all human, we are flawed, and NO ONE is perfect, so what do we do when we royally F*^&^ up? Instead of being ashamed of the bad choices or feeling guilty about it, I want to teach them how to fix the bad choices with better choices? Ya know? I am sure you do that too, just in different words.


----------



## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

Quote:


> So I don't see it as a punishment for him not to come (like he really wants to go shopping with me, c'mon, who likes to go shopping when they have no money and no spending power?!) but as me having learned my lesson the hard way.


I like this. I am not standing arpund just waiting for my son to do something bad in Target to make some kind of point. If he is consistently having problems navigating this particular situation I see no problem with backing off and letting him stay home with his Daddy while we work through the issue.


----------



## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakeber*
> 
> I've read that story. I like it. I'm not sure I see the moral the same as you. I read it as how hard it is to undo the damage done, not that it can't BE undone. I am sure my friend will always remember how I reacted on the day that my USB contracted a virus on the same day as my period started, I had a presentation to do in front of 200 people to be followed by a presentation to 250 people plus their parents and the entire school, and the day I had to deal with three sick teachers in my department being absent and arranging all their covers. I hope everyone remembers that! I don't think many people would have handled that with grace.
> 
> ...


I'm not 100% sure we are talking about the same thing. I have no problem with someone having a bad day and expressing that. But using your example there is a HUGE difference in my opinion between your co-worker dissolving into tears and saying something along the lines of "$%^& I am so %)(^ing tired of this struggle and angry at the stairs/crutches/stupid coffee cup and I would really really like something in my life to be easy" VS unleashing hurtful anger and saying something like "Hey B(*&^C are you too stupid to see I need help here. If you weren't in my (*&^ way then I wouldn't have xyz. I can't stand how you think you are ABC."

Those sorts of nail holes are damage - irreversible IMO. I'm not talking about being human and expressing normal emotions, frustrations etc in a healthy way. I'm talking about unleashing deliberately hurtful words or actions in anger as a result of poor choices or self awareness. That kind of behaviour is a choice and it's one I am hoping to help my kids avoid because they have better tools. Everybody has crappy days. IME people are more likely to remember how you treated them than the circumstances which prompted your behaviour iykwim? I tell my kids that when you make excuses and blame others, you give your power and your dignity away.


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

True, I see what you mean. Thanks for explaining. I don't think kids(little ones anyway) MEAN to be hurtful though, do you? I think most of the time they're just working through feelings. When my son started with the "I hate you", and "you're stupid" stuff, He had no idea how hurtful that was....He probably didn't really know until he was older and had those words used against him by other kids. He had to learn through a lot of talking and modelling how to use kinder words. He would shout "Shut up!" and I would say "Mommy, can I have some quiet time please?" It was an exhausting time, and it is a wonder we chose to go back in for more just as we were beginning to see the light at the end of the toddlerhood tunnel!









Even when older kids choose to use hurtful words (thinking here of my students and my own adolescence) I don't think that they want to hurt me as much as they want to convey their hurt. When a student of mine (ages14-18) says something like "go to Hell, Miss." which actually happened last week, I don't think he/she is trying to hurt me, I think "Wow, he's really angry...we need to talk to him!" I don't think "how dare he talk to me like that!" I think..."wow, this kid really trusts me, what can I do to help him see my point of view and get past this?" He was angry, he made a mistake, and when we talked about it he was really grateful that I didn't rat him out to the head of section and make a big fuss about it, but just let him work through it and apologize like a grown up and talk about how he was going to try to keep his temper under control. When I told my mom she was a b**&^h and she'd ruined my life, I wasn't trying to hurt her, I wasn't being deliberately cruel. I was out of control ...I don't even know....I was all hyped up on hormones... who knows what I was trying to say?

I never assume people are trying to hurt me with their words or actions (ETA: when my co-worker did explode, it was pretty darn rude...she called me names I can't type here and pushed me pretty hard. I was a little scared, but also knew it wasn't ME she was attacking but her environment). I think most of us are oblivious to the hurt we cause others when we are hurting ourselves. I always tell my son that if someone attacks you it's probably because they are hurting, and it doesn't mean you should sit there and take it, not at al, but you might be able to diffuse it with a little empathy and kindness. If that doesn't work, you can always walk away, but never take it personally, because it's never about YOU.

With DS, we spent from age 2.5 - 4 or so talking about choices and words and all that before he realized the impact of his choices and words, and he still makes mistakes, but I guess I have a hard time seeing those mistakes as deliberate. Maybe I am just one of those moms that can't see the bad in my own kid.







He'll probably turn out to be a serial killer or something.


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *number572*
> 
> I can't comment on the OP b'c I don't have a 6 year old. But I wanted to respond to this question. I also think that being allowed to go out of control and say whatever flies out of your mouth in a fit is not always going to be able to be taken back. I'll give an example of my mother. She would go into several hour long screaming rages a few times per week directed at my sisters and me, then come back an hour later and either apologize while crying or turn it around and guilt us into feeling so sorry for her that WE ended up apologizing for "getting her so upset". All of my sisters and I have a great bit of disrespect for how she handled her own emotions and each of us had problems learning the hard way that you can't just fly off the handle and say nasty or hurtful things to others, expecting them to simply brush it off as your bad mood.
> 
> It seems more helpful to a kid to learn how to recognize when they are upset and think thru their emotions and learn ways of communication that don't involve angry outbursts or saying things that you'll even need to apologize for later. If it is so bad that an apology and forgiveness will be needed, practice very hard on catching it before it leaves your mouth at all, b'c many people will not be okay with being expected to handle someone else's out of control behavior.


Oh, for sure! I *totally* agree with that.

But I also want to give my kids the tools to handle the after math in effective ways for when they do explode (like NOT giving a guilt trip to the person you attacked, OMG) because people will annoy us and some days we may screw up and not reign it in like we should and rather than feel guilty or ashamed, OWN it, and find a way to fix it before it festers. Being able to sincerely apologize and repair relationships after messing things up is a really important life skill, I think. Not as good as being able to control yourself from the get go, but only slightly less important.

Of course that's for a once in a while thing, not a regular habit. Even the most sincere apology cannot make up for bad habits.


----------



## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

I agree with everything karenwith4 has said.

We've been through this issue of abusive* language with one of our kids, and I've found that the heat of the moment is not the time to try to teach my child anything. What works here is to simply say something like "You're angry, but you may not speak to me that way. I'll talk to you when you're calm." Saying "you're angry" both expresses empathy and models naming/expressing emotion, but it's short so it doesn't add fuel to the fire (as a long conversation would). Refusing to discuss the issue until she's calm-well, everyone's ability to problem solve and communicate is diminished when they're very upset, and I will point that out to her once she's calm. It also sets a clear boundary.

Once I've said that, I wait for her to calm down. I don't necessarily send her to her room (but I will if her behavior is disruptive enough), though I may walk away for a time out myself. I'm not going to talk about whatever she's angry about until she's calm enough to speak to me without the abusive language. Now, I'm not ignoring her-*I'm disengaging from an interaction that is neither productive nor healthy*. Usually I'm nearby and if needed I'll periodically remind her that I'm here to talk once she's calm. In not trying to talk to her about the problem right away, I'm giving her the space she needs to calm down.

Once she's calm enough to talk to me without the abusive language, that's the time to discuss other ways of expressing feelings, other ways she might have handled the problem, etc. This whole process has really helped her learn to manage her emotions in more healthy ways.

Also, helping a child name emotions, communicate them, and solve problems is just an ongoing thing. One thing that's been helpful here is to talk about times when we adults have been angry or frustrated and how we handled it. We've also had some little posters with faces expressing many different emotions, to help with learning emotion words. Problem solving games are good too. There's a good book that addresses learning communication and problem-solving skills through games/discussions, called Raising a Thinking Child (by Myrna Shure, I think).

*When I say abusive language, I mean name-calling and/or insults meant to hurt or demean others. I ignore the occasional "I hate you."


----------



## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakeber*
> 
> Okay...just one more question:
> 
> How is listening to the child and talking to them with understanding and compassion, mutally exclusive of stopping abusive behavior and teaching them to make better choices? How does listening with empathy and hugs equate standing there allowing them to abuse and berate you? I don't get it. I assure you I don't let my son abuse me and anymore if he has an outburst (which might be like once a year or so, much like his mom and dad) he catches himself immediately, with one raised eyebrow of shock from his dad or I, and breathes deeply to try again in a nicer way with a sincere apology to boot (which is better than I can say for his dad or myself at times!).


I think that whether it is teaching or supporting abusive language depends on the child. For my dd standing there and listening means that she has an audience and continues to escalate out of control. Sending her out of the room helps both of us regroup before we address the problem together. It isn't that we don't address it, it is just that we need space from each other to calm down before addressing it. Some kids want to be touched and hugged when they are pissed off and that helps them de-escalate, with my dd it really depends on the level of mad and whether she is in the mood for being playfully taken out of her mad. When she is not she goes beyond pissy and really just wants space. I was the same way as a child, I remember feeling so boxed in and angry when I wasn't left alone to calm down. My mother drove me crazy trying to get me to talk and work things through when all I wanted was some time to myself, she still does this actually and it still drives me crazy but I am able to deal with my anger calmly now for the most part.

I think you may be seeing this as an either or thing, either you talk to your children and help them through their anger or you send them off and ignore their feelings. That is just not always the case. Some people need to have peace from the person they see as "making" them angry before they are ready to work through their anger. Letting an older child have that space isn't mean or repressive, it is identifying what they need based on how well you know them and letting them have that. Staying and fueling the problem is really not healthy for anyone and it feels repressive beyond belief. I really think it is less respectful to stay and force yourself on your child than it is to send them out of the common area to calm down on their own terms.

As for taking a child out of the store being a punishment, I don't think it is necessarily a punishment. It is so much easier to calmly help your child work through being intensely angry in the car than it is in the store where people are giving you the look, nasty comments to your child, and/or their abusive parenting advice. When your child is a baby it is no big deal, but when they are three and look five it is a huge deal and adds a whole extra layer of stress on both of you. I found it easier to be the parent I wanted to be by going outside and feeling like the pressure wasn't on me, my dd doesn't like going out then coming back to shop again so in her eyes it may be an awful thing, but I know myself well enough to know that if we stay in the store it will be much worse for both of us. I think you really have to weigh the options and the consequences of each sometimes and go with the one that is most likely to not end with you getting angry with your child and doing or saying things you will truly regret even years later.


----------



## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

There are so many ways to practice gentle discipline, and that's good because not all kids respond well to all approaches.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakeber*
> I guess can see why people use Time Outs for verbal abuse, but I have not found it to be effective in the goals I am trying to reach with my children.


Time-out isn't always a punishment. For my child time-out was time away from the situation and from interaction related to the situation, which allowed her to calm down. That's it, didn't have to be in a room separate from parents, no set period of time. Being able to step away from a situation and take some time to cool off is a good, adaptive skill to learn. Some kids will take that time on their own, naturally. Some kids need to be guided to do so (until they learn to take that time on their own), and calm down much more quickly when guided to do so. (I know my kid often can't calm down if I'm talking to her or trying to comfort her or problem solve with her when she's angry or frustrated. The interaction is overstimulating.)


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *One_Girl*
> 
> *I think that whether it is teaching or supporting abusive language depends on the child. * For my dd standing there and listening means that she has an audience and continues to escalate out of control. Sending her out of the room helps both of us regroup before we address the problem together. It isn't that we don't address it, it is just that we need space from each other to calm down before addressing it. Some kids want to be touched and hugged when they are pissed off and that helps them de-escalate, with my dd it really depends on the level of mad and whether she is in the mood for being playfully taken out of her mad. When she is not she goes beyond pissy and really just wants space. I was the same way as a child, I remember feeling so boxed in and angry when I wasn't left alone to calm down. My mother drove me crazy trying to get me to talk and work things through when all I wanted was some time to myself, she still does this actually and it still drives me crazy but I am able to deal with my anger calmly now for the most part.
> 
> ...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Magella*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

*Quote:*


> *This is where I get down to semantics. I mostly agree with this, a time out can be just that, a time-out a stop of the clock if you will to get everyone to calm down...but that is not what was described up-thread by some of the more adamant mamas, with all due respect. It was a send them to their room until they can learn to be nice and figure out a better way to talk to a grown up. We deserve respect for everything we have sacrificed for these children and I will not give that sort of language any consideration whatsoever (read: and neither should you, and you're a fool if you do!)  I mean....that is the sort of thing *I* personally am talking about. Not Time out for everyone's sake. But theTime Out doled out in anger, indignance, and defensiveness, and it's that sort of advice that worries me. As I said before; time outs have their place in our home, especially when the adults are near the brink of doing some serious damage to the parent child relationship, but that is a very different kettle of fish from what was described above, no?*


Hmmm. Interesting. Yes and no. I'm not completely convinced that is very different. I think this is more an issue of tone (or the inability to read it) in a post, lack of full context, etc. When I say to my child "You're angry but you may not speak to me that way" I am saying I won't listen to that kind of talk-and that I won't engage in a conversation with her as long as she's speaking to me that way. I'm saying to her that I deserve respect. I really want her to learn that it's okay to set that boundary, to not stand for being spoken to in an abusive way. Now, if I (for example) say that's what I do (even I'm adamant about it) that doesn't mean that I think that those who do things differently than I are fools who let their children abuse them-but that's easily lost on a message board where most people are sharing what they do and what works for them.

Likewise, if a poster says they send their child to their room until they can find a better way to express themselves, I don't assume that those are the exact words they use or that it's done with an angry, indignant tone. I've certainly told my child that she needs to go to her room until she's calm enough to speak to me respectfully. I think that's okay, and not hugely different than "until you find a better way to talk to me." Additionally, I think it's appropriate for children to see our emotions. So, if I do sound angry or indignant that's okay a lot of the time. Sure, screaming at them isn't okay. They need to see parents managing anger in healthy ways, they need us to keep our cool reasonably well.

Also, to use myself as an example, in our home under what circumstances a child will take time-out is well known ahead of time ("If you're so angry that you have or are about to hurt someone with your words or your body, you're going to have to take a break to calm down"). If I'm angry at the time, it doesn't mean I'm guiding a child to time-out solely out of anger. I don't know whether or not that's true for anyone else advocating time-outs for language, but I would bet that their kids have a pretty good idea of when to expect a time-out. I know there's this whole Alfie Kohn "time out is love-withdrawal" line of thought but I know I'm not alone in disagreeing with that. I think the worst thing about spur-of-the-moment consequences doled out in anger is that over time it can be ineffective. It's chaotic and anxiety producing if discipline is inconsistent. Kids do need to know what to expect. Does a time-out doled out in anger necessarily damage the relationship? I don't think you can say that. Could it? Maybe, if it happens a lot and conflicts go unresolved over long periods of time-but I'd expect other factors to be involved as well, creating a climate of stress within the relationship. I don't think the stakes are really so high that time-outs given in anger (alone, absent other problems) can really damage a relationship. That's just one small part of a relationship, and I think a healthy relationship can survive a few time-outs given in indignation.

I also don't think there's any indication that those who advocate time-out for abusive language aren't following up with their kids afterward to discuss what happened, the child's feelings, etc. Maybe they don't, but I would guess that there is ongoing discussion and guidance regarding emotions and language.

I mean, if I *saw* a parent screaming at their kid to get to their room and don't come out until you can speak to me politely with no follow-up discussion after the child was calm, I would probably agree that they could have handled it better and would hope it wasn't a pattern. I'm just not seeing evidence that this is what's being advocated on this thread.

eta: I also think age is a factor. I think there's a good chance you'd see different advice with a younger child.


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> I'm just not seeing evidence that this is what's being advocated on this thread.


Well, see, that's why I asked for clarification on posts like *6, 9 and 10* (see post 12), and the clarification I got from some posters when I delved further into their later posts (like Karen, again thank you for engaging in civil dialogue with me...it helps greatly to make these threads fully clear and helpful.) made sense, then there was the response from my initial inquiry: "he'll learn" and other agreements that it is okay to shut down communication and further implications that if you didn't shut down communication at these moment you were merely putting up with abuse and allowing bad habits to be formed (post 18, 21 and 23 to name a few). There absolutely is evidence of such advocation or I wouldn't have asked for further clarification on the matter.

There is definitely two different tones going on in this thread (like post 9 & 10 for example). Yours doesn't concern me. Some of them do...but whatever. Who died and made me queen od GD? Nobody!

Some people like to come across as really hard on these boards...But when giving advice to a mom who is admittedly new to GD I think it's important to give the whole picture and not draw absolute lines in the sand (hence why I asked for clarification and didn't just jump to conclusions about tone). That's why I asked for further information.

I'm really not trying to start a fight, just trying get clarity and have a full picture for the OP who is seeking advice on how to handle her 6 year old's issues.

While obviously I agree that no single act of abusing authority over a child is going to make a serious difference in the relationship between a paerent and her child, when we make policies out of these habits, they can have a lasting and damaging impact. THAT is what I am talking about, and what has most definitely been advocated by SOME posters in this thread (or least it certainly has appeared that way and they have not come back to edit or clarify their stance on the issue).


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Magella*
> 
> eta: I also think age is a factor. I think there's a good chance you'd see different advice with a younger child.


hmmm Interesting...how so? The most harsh shut down policy posts on the board have been from parents who mostly have kids in the 2-5 range. Or do you mean if they'd had older kids they'd be less harsh?


----------



## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakeber*
> 
> hmmm Interesting...how so? The most harsh shut down policy posts on the board have been from parents who mostly have kids in the 2-5 range. Or do you mean if they'd had older kids they'd be less harsh?


I think that is exactly right. I don't know about other people, but as my dd has gotten older I have definitely started to relax a lot when it comes to parenting. I think at first I was so worried about how she would turn out someday that I overreacted a lot. As my dd got older I started letting a lot of things go and things still turn out really well. I have heard that this often happens with the first child because they are like the guinea pig and that parents calm down a lot and loosen up with the rest of the kids.

I think that your questioning has been very helpful and that when a consequence/punishment seems harsh it should be questioned for clarification. I know that following threads like this has helped me to grow towards being a more relaxed parent and I appreciate those who question because I like to be challenged to think about what I am doing because I tend to fall into lazy mode at times.


----------



## mom2grrls (Jul 24, 2008)

True, I see what you mean. Thanks for explaining. I don't think kids(little ones anyway) MEAN to be hurtful though, do you? I think most of the time they're just working through feelings. When my son started with the "I hate you", and "you're stupid" stuff, He had no idea how hurtful that was.

Even when older kids choose to use hurtful words (thinking here of my students and my own adolescence) I don't think that they want to hurt me as much as they want to convey their hurt. >>>>>>>

I agree. My son is 6(about to be 7) and he can still say some hurtful things however i know it's not b/c he hates me or thinks that i'm stupid. He says those things when he feels overwhelmed or like he can't get control. He does not like to be left when this happens so it takes all I have to just let him lash for a moment w/out saying anything.

I will agree with the older kid thing too as I see it every once in a while with my oldest(12 going to be 13 this year though) and with kids at school. They're figuring out how to deal with new stuff.


----------

