# johnson&johnson ad, what's wrong with this picture



## spsmom (Jun 19, 2004)

ok, so you will have to imagine the ad in your head. it's an ad a friend of mine sent to me that she took from a mainstream mag (she didn't mention name of mag, though)

it's an ad for johnson bedtime cream

the shot is from baby's room where the baby is sleeping in his crib, and in the background you can see across the hall the parents' room where they are sleeping soundly with the family dog at the end of the bed.

and the ad reads:

When your baby sleep better, everyone sleeps better.

leave your baby's skin soft all night long by massaging her with new bedtime cream. it helps calm and relax your baby for a better night's sleep.

now i know that not everyone here co-sleeps, whcih is why i posted it here! imho, this ad just really rubs me the wrong way! and i ams ure other co-sleeping mamas will understand why!


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## nannymom (Jan 23, 2004)

That add bugs me too!


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

I love the fact that the DOG gets to spend the night in the parents' bed, but not their own child.


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## happymomma (Jun 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
I love the fact that the DOG gets to spend the night in the parents' bed, but not their own child.









That drives me crazy! I actually had someone tell me once that they could not have their baby sleep in their bed because they were worried about their dog suffocating the baby. Um, hello? Kick the dog out! It was like the thought never occured to them. Scary.


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

ew. dogs in bed are gross!

*not a dog person.


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## AmandaBL (Aug 3, 2004)

I'm a dog person. He slept with me, my husband & the 5 year old when he climbed into our bed. When the baby was born, the dog started sleeping on the couch. That was a no brainer for me. I've heard people say that too & it's so stupid!!! I've never seen the ad. It's too bad parents will buy ANYTHING to help their baby sleep, but the thought of putting them next to them is so foreign.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

You know, I bought that night time lotion thinking it would be nice and soothing...uhh, yeah, I'm not a label reader. Thank goodness dh is because this is what the back of the label reads:

Quote:

*SAFETY WARNING*: Keep this product out of reach of children. Do not use without consulting a doctor if child has asthma or allergies or if there is a family history of either. Serious breathing problems could occur.
And to think, I was going to use this on my chidren!!


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## spsmom (Jun 19, 2004)

that's horrible about the warning label! how crazy is that!

i'll have to ask my friend which mag she found this in.


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## BathrobeGoddess (Nov 19, 2001)

Have you senn the other J an J add? The one where baby and dad are sleeping on the couch together while mom is in the shower with some other product. She gets out, picjs up the baby and puts him in his crib then lays down on dad instead!

That one really gets my goat...why didn't she just lay down with both of them! grrrr....


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## boatbaby (Aug 30, 2004)

The dog argument is my standard retort to mainstream friends who questions why we co-sleep.

I always say - what's wrong with our society when it's never questioned to have your dog or cat in bed with you and your baby down the hall in a cage. But it's always questioned when your babe is in bed with you???!!!









We never owned a crib. I think they are just strange.


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## MamaHippo (Dec 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BathrobeGoddess*
Have you senn the other J an J add? The one where baby and dad are sleeping on the couch together while mom is in the shower with some other product. She gets out, picjs up the baby and puts him in his crib then lays down on dad instead!








That one really gets my goat...why didn't she just lay down with both of them! grrrr....

I saw that ad too and it really tee'd me off. Poor baby was so comfy!

Boston, I am also not a dog person ...







: . I cant imagine having a dog in bed! I am however, a cat peson, and we have 2 cats who up until DS's birth slept in our bed with us. But after we brought DS home, the kitties were bought brand-new soft kitty beds in the hall next to the heat register. Our older cat, Merlin, has a cute but annoying habit of getting into bed next to DS and curling up next to him, keeping him warm. But then his fluffy tail (he's a longhair) always ends up right on DS's nose. so its the hall for him.

Lisa


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BathrobeGoddess*
Have you senn the other J an J add? The one where baby and dad are sleeping on the couch together while mom is in the shower with some other product. She gets out, picjs up the baby and puts him in his crib then lays down on dad instead!

That one really gets my goat...why didn't she just lay down with both of them! grrrr....

Well, maybe Dad was getting baby to sleep while mom took a nice relaxing shower, and they were planning on having sex? Surely it's OK to put the baby in a safe place and have a little adult time for a few minutes?


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## Vicitoria (Dec 17, 2004)

Just because you co-sleep doesn't mean your baby might not need some help getting to sleep and the cream may help. And, your baby could possibly be more comfortable in it's own bed. How do you know if you've never tried it?

Honestly, don't get me wrong, if everyone here is so gung-ho about your AP parenting decisions why do you care about what everyone else in the world thinks? Do what you believe in because you know you can and let everyone else do the same. Everyone does what's right for them.


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## mandalamama (Sep 1, 2004)

that ad would irk me too, because of the obvious "dog is ok in our bed, baby is not" connotation. they could have done the ad without the dog.

i've been using the J&J lavender lotion every night since Willow was 1 month old, (same product as the cream i wonder? haven't seen the ad)). it has the safety warning so we tested it on the top of one foot and waited to see how she did (no rash). then i put it on me, and she slept beside me and inhaled the scent and she did fine with it. so it's part of our nightly ritual, she gets a nice long massage and it is SO wonderful for both of us







the thing is, since she sleeps with us, we also get to benefit from the wonderful warm lavender scent on her body! i wonder if J&J pointed that out in an ad, would it fly?


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## gizzyntaz (Apr 23, 2004)

Of course the advertising is ludicrous - cream will help a baby sleep? Maybe if it's BM cream and they ingest it









We let the kitties sleep on our bed. They drive me nuts though, because they get really affectionate when DS has JUST fallen asleep and try to walk all over him!







They don't like him well enough to sleep close. But it's a family bed and pets are part of the family









- Alison


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BathrobeGoddess*
...why didn't she just lay down with both of them! grrrr....

maybe she wanted to ride the baloney pony.


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## nannymom (Jan 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vicitoria*
Just because you co-sleep doesn't mean your baby might not need some help getting to sleep and the cream may help. And, your baby could possibly be more comfortable in it's own bed. How do you know if you've never tried it?

Honestly, don't get me wrong, if everyone here is so gung-ho about your AP parenting decisions why do you care about what everyone else in the world thinks? Do what you believe in because you know you can and let everyone else do the same. Everyone does what's right for them.

I don't understand why you posted this here. This is the co-sleeping forum and people are joking around about comercials that promote something we disagree with. It's not judgeing other people to be sick of seeing only mainstream night time parenting promoted in the media.


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## KnitterMama (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nannymom*
I don't understand why you posted this here. This is the co-sleeping forum and people are joking around about comercials that promote something we disagree with. It's not judgeing other people to be sick of seeing only mainstream night time parenting promoted in the media.









:

And also wanted to add that we are another fam with baby and furry mammals in bed. Our bed is on the floor ... the dog's decided to have her own bed right next to DH since the babe AND the cat sleep with us now.

I still always find dog hair in between DS's toes... :LOL


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vicitoria*
Everyone does what's right for them.

Yeah, but not everyone does what's right (Best.) for their baby.


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## Zipporah (Feb 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AnnMarie*
Yeah, but not everyone does what's right (Best.) for their baby.


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## Vicitoria (Dec 17, 2004)

Only a parent known what is best for *their* child. We have co-slept with ds and the dog and the dog likes to be wherever ds is as long as ds isn't trying to pull his hair out or on his tail.

I just think that as AP parents *WE* often think it's the best for everybody when in fact that's not true. Each individual has to decide what's best for themselves. We know as AP parents we are judged by non-AP parents. Does that make it OK to judge back?

But, I forgot, the whole thread is just a joke anyway. Silly me.


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## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Um... this is MDC. We're an AP community. If you want to go somewhere where people don't advocate for the AP lifestyle you might want to check out Babycenter.

Maybe you want to read the UA again?

http://www.mothering.com/mdc/rulesgu...vertising.html


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## nannymom (Jan 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheena*
Um... this is MDC. We're an AP community. If you want to go somewhere where people don't advocate for the AP lifestyle you might want to check out Babycenter.

Maybe you want to read the UA again?

http://www.mothering.com/mdc/rulesgu...vertising.html


Sheena I was going to acuse of being hostile but then i read the ua and realized you are (as always) right


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

:


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

here we go again!

I just LOVE it when people refer non ap members to babycenter.


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## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)

They spend all night cuddling their _dog_ instead of their _baby?_ Strange...and maybe even a little sick....


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## Vicitoria (Dec 17, 2004)

The Baby Center, from what I've read on it has a lot of people talking about AP techniques.

Yes, I know I like to stir things up sometimes, yes, pull up the popcorn and enjoy the show.

Why should we waste our time putting down that which we do not think is AP instead of building up in a positive manner. AP takes so much energy, why waste it? I'm sure J & J didn't try to offend co-sleepers.


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## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

No, I'm sure they did not set out to annoy co-sleepers, no one said they did. But, I think the pervasive image of what is considered "normal" for American babies can be damaging in many ways. Normalizing formula, CIO, sleeping alone, baby buckets... none of it is "best" for baby but it is what (thanks to ads like that and millions of others) is contributing to the death of instinctual parenting and the rise of corporate led child rearing. Just imagine what one ad by a mainstream (I would rather never use a baby product than have to use J&J, shudder) baby product company that featured an AP element like co-sleeping could do. It could open the eyes of millions of people who are just parenting the way Babies R Us told them to.


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## BathrobeGoddess (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

I just think that as AP parents WE often think it's the best for everybody when in fact that's not true. Each individual has to decide what's best for themselves. We know as AP parents we are judged by non-AP parents. Does that make it OK to judge back?
I respect your opinion but this I don't understand what this has to do with a TV commercial. Judging a TV commercial for sending an anti-AP message is not the same as judging a family for their choices. I get to judge TV commercials...that is my right as a consumer...to make a critical distinction between products and companies I will buy from and those I will not. By making personal choices and by having a personal opinion, I am not universaly judging mainstream parents. Just as I don't like the idea of AP being judged as an stagnant, stiff parenting method that only crazy, dirty hippies use, I don't like mainstream parenting being depicted in the media as clean and fresh and full of promise.

Hence my problem with the above ads.


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## Vicitoria (Dec 17, 2004)

In response to the last two posts (unless someone else is posting as I do). Some children do prefer to sleep alone. If I could not get your child to sleep anywere else after a lot of trying and the bucket worked I would do it. I think that more AP things are getting out there. Lot's more parents are using slings and snugglies even though they aren't "AP." And I see a lot more people at least giving breast feeding a try and making their own baby food. We can build up AP by practicing it in a normal natural manner trying not to offend but being open. If parents see that it works then they will try it as well.

My husband loves J & J products because his dead mom loved them and they carry just incredibly happy memories for him. He uses them on our son and there is no way I would even bring up the subject of not using them. My husband hates the fact that our son sleeps better alone now and falls asleep with him almost every night he can before putting him in his crib and the first thing he says if we're awoken in the middle of the night is "just bring him to bed" even if it means no one will sleep. So, in a way, I'm offended by someone making fun of the ad or judging it because I use the products and it does depict my household at the present time. It's a very happy, very loving household with two parents who would do anything if it were the best for their child.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Eden hit the nail on the head. We co-sleep the majority of the time, but I don't think co-sleeping IS AP neccesarily. Dar sleeps fine anywhere, but I sleep best with her by me hehe.
I would like to see co-sleeping in an ad for once. Just so people know its an option.


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Oh, I see. So this is an issue of product loyalty?

Anyone that says they do not like Johnson and Johnson or their ads is going to hurt your feelings. OK.

For the record, I have 3 children. One of them, for a period of a few months (from 3-8 mos of age), needed her own space to go to sleep. AP is about meeting your children's needs. I respected this need of hers once I figured it out. As Dr Sears says, nighttime parenting is doing whatever it takes to let everyone get the best night's sleep possible. Not following some sort of rigid rules about who sleeps where when and with whom.


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## Vicitoria (Dec 17, 2004)

It's not really an issue of product loyalty. I'm offended that someone is basically looking into my family sleeping arrangement and judging it by the cover instead of the content. If what a person is seeing in an ad they think is so wrong they have to make a post to bash it (It is bashing no matter how you want to water it down) then they are bashing me. Someone always comes back and says "if it's right for your child then that is AP." So, why don't we think that way before we say anything?

Talking about advertising in general is a totally different issue and not how I read the original post. So boil me in oil for reading it the way I did if I was wrong. I don't see the ad as something that puts co-sleeping down. It's promoting a product that will hopefully help a baby sleep and everyone else in the house as well. If ds doesn't sleep well either does my dog. I just don't see the point in making an issue of how AP is not in the mainstream by bringing mainstream down in order to do so.


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## BathrobeGoddess (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

if everyone here is so gung-ho about your AP parenting decisions why do you care about what everyone else in the world thinks?
I pose your question to you, Victoria...

You seem firmly grounded in your parent methods so why are you offended by a group of moms who think a TV commercial is yucky? Like you said, if you are meeting your dc needs that is what ap is about. In your case, you meet your dc needs by using the product dissused here and by allowing your dc to sleep alone. Great! You get to do that! You get to make those choices! I get to make different ones

I'm sorry if you feel like you were being attacked but this simply isn't the case. I don't like the ad, I don't have to like it and I am allowed not to like it and state that opinion here. If you want to read something else into that opinion that is your choice and has to do with your issues.


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## Vicitoria (Dec 17, 2004)

My point, shall I try again... is we don't have to tear others down to build ourselves up. I was simply trying to give examples of what happens on a much broader scale when we do. I've obviosly failed.


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## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Maybe you're a little defensive?

I really don't see criticizing a TV commercial as "tearing others down."







:


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## Vicitoria (Dec 17, 2004)

If I am defensive I'm certainly not the only one and again, not the point I'm trying to make.

...anything to dance around the actual point...


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## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

No one is dancing around your point, we just think you are wrong.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

i agree that the lifestyle apparently depicted in the commercial can very well be a loving one, full of devotion and warm snuggly feelings. of course. it's a commercial. they're actors. they're not even a real family, probably. they probably just met that morning. the point that i think is being made is that it is yet another way to promote the mainstream non-AP lifestyle...that is not inherently bad, but it is a little irritating when AP lifestyles are almost never depicted and therefore the overall ignorance about our choices perpetuates itself...and advertising like this that normalize these other decisions contribute to it.


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vicitoria*
I just don't see the point in making an issue of how AP is not in the mainstream by bringing mainstream down in order to do so.

Sadly, this is the only way that some crunchy folks know how to defend themselves and their choices. It is irritating. I hear you.


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

I am still not convinced this "family" is representing the mainstream lifestyle. Okay they have a crib that the baby sleeps in, at least when the parents get it on.... and they use (non-organic) (animal tested?) J & J products (at least once, we don't know about what else they use or how often) and we're told this product helps their baby sleep.

but here's the thing. If I had a potion that helped my baby sleep so I could get it on with my hot husband -- I would be all over that shiznit. and HELL YES I would have the baby in another room for said getting-it-on! I'm sorry but I see nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

And I don't think ownership of a crib implies a family isnt natural or even AP. Maybe it was a gift from the in laws and they usually use it to store laundry? Maybe they use it only for getting it on. Maybe they don't cosleep but they're still AP? Hello people, it's not AP law that you have to do all this stuff. Yes this is the cosleeping forum and you're especially sensitive to it here. But who says this "family" doesn't cosleep? That's quite an assumption.

You know what, I am so deeply crunched out that I forget people don't do things all-natural way* in which I do them. (*well, for the most part) so why assume it's the worst when you could assume it's the best?! revolutionize thought and be happy for them, getting it on. Maybe it's their first time in 6 months! Maybe they're ttc!

I havent seen the ad cos I'm way too crunchy to watch tv, but I bet their bedding was organic cotton and they don't circ.

Yes, natural lifestyles ought to be promoted more. But commercials and television are ambiguous. So is life.


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## Vicitoria (Dec 17, 2004)

WHOOOOO HOOOOOO!!!!!!














:LOL


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## Messac888 (Jan 24, 2005)

I feel like I'm stepping into a battlefield here, so I'll add my two cents and then leave quietly.









My family APs. The people in the commercial are people in a commercial. They do not AP nor are they mainstream. They are actors and actresses earning a dollar by laying in bed with a dog while a baby is laying in a crib. The end.

Seriously, I totally understand how the J&J commercial doesn't PROMOTE AP but I wouldn't say it "brings it down" either. The ad is meant to promote their products to the mass majority of people, which are typically mainstream parents, not AP parents. Yes, more and more people don't circ- the commercial wasn't for circumcisions. More and more people are questioning vaccines- the commercial wasn't for vaccinations. More and more people are using organic products- the commerical most definitely wasn't for organic products. But it is nonetheless a commercial, and I still like their lavendar lotion- I use it on myself! Untill I find a lotion recipe to make my own lavendar lotion that leaves my skin feeling comparabe, I will probably continue to use J&J lavendar lotion. I have bought all of ONE bottle since my ds was born almost 3 years ago. Please don't hurt me!







:

Seriously though, it is just a commercial! I agree with most of the postings on here, it definitely doesn't help AP make a name for itself, but I can understand the "opposing" point of view as well- hypothetically speaking, if this were a real family, we don't know anything about them and therefore should not be judging since we get judged so often for NOT being mainstream.

When you know better, you do better.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Gee, I am pretty sure the OP said this was a magazine ad, not a commercial. :LOL Sounds like some people have all gotten their undies in quite the bundie about this. This thread was started in this forum 'cause the OP'er knew that she might offend some in another forum, sooooooo what's big deal? If you don't like it, then go to a different forum. Unless.......you are the family in the ad. Are you?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Messac888*
The ad is meant to promote their products to the mass majority of people, which are typically mainstream parents, not AP parents.

This is probably very true. I wouldn't touch that junk with a 10 foot pole. Have you seen the ingredients in their products?!!


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## Vicitoria (Dec 17, 2004)

To be honest, I think it's an interesting discussion. I know I may not sound that way but a little debate is good every now and then. Do you ever just want to take an opposing viewpoint just to walk in another person's shoes? Or even a different one for that matter.

One more point. According to the UA we aren't allowed to:

_Posting in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, namecalling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law._

But does that mean it's not OK to do this toward AP points of view and OK to do it towards mainstream points of view just because it's an AP site? I would think that if we wanted to turn the world towards AP we would talk about everything that's good about it.


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vicitoria*
I would think that if we wanted to turn the world towards AP we would talk about everything that's good about it.

omg HOW MANY TIMES have I said this same thing?!
lol.


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## Dolphin (Apr 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boston*
...but here's the thing. If I had a potion that helped my baby sleep so I could get it on with my hot husband -- I would be all over that shiznit....









: that line really made me laugh...thanks


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## nannymom (Jan 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vicitoria*
To be honest, I think it's an interesting discussion. I know I may not sound that way but a little debate is good every now and then. Do you ever just want to take an opposing viewpoint just to walk in another person's shoes? Or even a different one for that matter.

One more point. According to the UA we aren't allowed to:

_Posting in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, namecalling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law._

But does that mean it's not OK to do this toward AP points of view and OK to do it towards mainstream points of view just because it's an AP site? I would think that if we wanted to turn the world towards AP we would talk about everything that's good about it.

I can't beleive you think this is what's happening! It seems like you just want to get mad about this. I feel harassed at MDC b/c it seems like if you have a strong oppinion you'll be accused of harassing people.


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## mommykof5 (Mar 15, 2005)

I love the line "Riding the baloney pony" and "shitz nitz". I thought only my husband talked that way ! :LOL

Now heres my take on the whole AP issue. I am an AP parent. We have 5 children. APing means doing what is right for your childs temperment. To have your child happy healthy and secure; in mind, body, and spirt. Some of the children we have slept with (and yes you can "get it on" with the baby in bed) and some we didn't. Some I have breastfed and some I didn't. (last child is on a bottle cause I had retained placenta and did not make milk and his frenulum goes all the way back to the underside of his gum so his top lip will not make a suction)We wear our babies







as well as use a stroller.
I laugh when some people say your not aping cause you give your baby a bottle or he sleeps in a crib. It's like saying today your not a woman cause you wear jeans. DUH...









However I think that parenting is very hard work. We all make choice in this life where we try to do the best we can with what we have. Instead of downgrading someone educate them. You never know you just might learn something yourself. We all are aldults here. Let's all vent, laugh, cry, and continue to receive support here because in today's society there really is not alot of support for parents who truly care about their child's well being. I hold my self up to a high standerd so that by my example perhaps someone will say "wow if you can do so can I. " Perhaps it might be co sleeping, or nursing, or homeschooling, or just getting down to my child's level and really trully listing to them. That's what I think AP is really about. That is defenitly what love is about. Trully honestly listing to someone and doing your best to take care of them.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Holy crap, Boston :LOL No kidding!

I can't think of how many times dh and I have worked like sled *dogs* to get some kid or another to sleep so we could have hot monkey sex.

We didn't have a crib, but we did have a little pac & play and moses basket.

It's not right having hot monkey sex with a kid beside you. :LOL

OK, it may be 'right', but you can't do the really satisfying vocalizations.









J & J has never crossed my hip -and oh-so-organic door.







: But, if this crap, plus a crib, gave me 30 or 40 minutes of sleeping babe when was needing a sleeping babe







, I'd buy it.

But I would buy at an indie store...not Wal-mart or Made-in-China BabiesRUs.

Well, maybe for hot monkey sex i might do Walmart or Tar-jaaaay.









YK, I could say that all those sexy chickies modeling their babes in Maya -Or-Whatever-Flavor-of-the- Month-Wraps were lies as well. No Maya wrap in the world will make me look *that* skinny.

Advertising is what it is. It's supposed to make you think you cannot live without a product, will look sexy in said product, will look Way MDC in said product etc., when *of course* you can be cool and save money without the flavor- of -the- month diaper or carrier. It's no different from wanting a Hummer. You want to be 'cool". With the J & J you want to sleep. If a WAHM sold a sleep aid massage oil, we'd also be all over it.

Let's just chillllll.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

UUmom, you're too funny!


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## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*

I can't think of how many times dh and I have worked like sled *dogs* to get some kid or another to sleep so we could have hot monkey sex.


LMAO!!! Thank you for making a point without being insulting or defensive... and instead big hilarious! :LOL


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

You forgot to add that some cribbers consider it animal cruelty to kennel their dog.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boatbaby*
The dog argument is my standard retort to mainstream friends who questions why we co-sleep.

I always say - what's wrong with our society when it's never questioned to have your dog or cat in bed with you and your baby down the hall in a cage. But it's always questioned when your babe is in bed with you???!!!









We never owned a crib. I think they are just strange.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vicitoria*
Honestly, don't get me wrong, if everyone here is so gung-ho about your AP parenting decisions why do you care about what everyone else in the world thinks? Do what you believe in because you know you can and let everyone else do the same. Everyone does what's right for them.


The problem is this, Vicitoria: people tend to do what they see around them. The cynic around me wants to call them a bunch of thoughtless sheep, but the kinder and more reasonable side acknowledges the human survival instinct to be like the rest of the tribe, KWIM?

Every ad, every image, every label, every piece of information you hear reinforces for you (and me and everyone) our sense of the "norm." We don't want to violate that norm, for the most part, because we know that if we do, we risk social punishment -- critical inlaws, parents, friends, pediatricians, and CPS workers, among others.

As far as cosleeping, we're willing to risk being accused of potentially overlaying and smothering our kids, or (if they're older) having sexual tastes that would put Michael Jackson to shame.

That's why we care about "what everyone else in the world thinks": because we are not living in our own private Idaho without regard to the opinions, tastes, beliefs, and laws of the rest of humanity. To quote John Donne, no man is an island.

The more people out there who know that there really ARE alternatives to sleeping in a crib, the more people who understand there are reasons (and good ones) to eschew what everyone else thinks is right, the more people we'll have thinking for themselves and making choices deliberately, not doing something because "everyone else does it."

Does that explain why we care?


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

:


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vicitoria*
One more point. According to the UA we aren't allowed to:

_Posting in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, namecalling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law._

But does that mean it's not OK to do this toward AP points of view

I interpret the UA in this context as giving us complete freedom to bash to matchsticks non-AP _points of view,_ actually, given that it is talking about refraining from harmful speech towards or about a PERSON.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Vicitoria, I was just thinking, that you posted the UA quote which says we are not to "bait" or be "adversarial", but _you_ are the one who keeps openly saying you're trying to start a debate or take the opposing side, just to see what happens. That is baiting, if you ask me. Just a thought. Not that I don't enjoy a nice debate, but purposely starting one just for the sake of seeing how everyone reacts is definitely baiting them. If I'm wrong, someone correct me.

And by the way, I totally understand what the OP is saying. For crying out loud, all she's saying is how she's sick and tired of mainstream advertising basically saying it's okay for the dog to sleep in the damn bed as long as the baby doesn't. And that's *exactly* what it IS saying. The parents aren't getting it on - they're sleeping. And there is no "what if the baby sleeps better on his own" scenario playing out here. The people aren't real. The baby doesn't sleep better in the crib that isn't at his own house with strangers in the next room. The commercial is clearly promoting the cultural norm - babies in another room while dog sleeps with mom and dad, regardless of whether baby might actually sleep better with mom and dad. Starting an argument about some hypothetical situation _that isn't even happening_ is absurd. (And it's what I'd consider baiting.) JMHO, don't take it personally.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Well, people, imo, commercials do *not* represent reality in any way.

Commercials represent what advertisers think appeals to us.

Bieng thin, living in a nice house, having dough to toss around, having a car the ladies like :LOL and freaking sleeping through the night when we have tiny babes.

If anyone thinks advertisers are trying to sell us what we already have, I have a boat load of crap in my garage that's worth millions. And it's all yours-- all you have to do is show up with your truck. Uh, i mean Hummer/really cool SUV and sexy partner (who will be male, not be wearing a shirt, & with a well -defined 6 pack). And no, he can't have been a recent client of Hair Club for Men.

There are only about a million reasons to shut off the TV, and advertising is but one of them.

If advertising makes you crazy...well, yk...shut it off.


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
Well, people, imo, commercials do *not* represent reality in any way...

Commercials represent what advertisers think appeals to us...
If advertising makes you crazy...well, yk...shut it off.


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## chicagodawn (Mar 5, 2005)

I hesitated to post here, because it started to get pretty heated, and some of the "non-AP" things we've had to do due to my son's illness still make me sad....

I don't care at all about the ad, it is annoying, but so are a lot of other ads. Anyone else hate the Lexus ads around Christmas? Who the he!$ gives a LEXUS as a gift? Gosh I despise those ads and those perky people.

But...this did turn to some extent into a discussion of AP practices, and those who don't practice them (I'd expect that, it is a AP Board!).

I'm quite sensitive to being "judged" for our non-AP practices - I am on this board because we do follow many AP practices, I found it in particular because it is anti-CIO, and has lots of great info on slings.

My son ended up formula fed, and in his own bed. He had severe Reflux and MSPI. We initially thought he couldn't digest dairy or soy (which was coming through in my breast milk). While dairy and soy (oh, and wheat) were eliminated from my system, I had to pump for 2 weeks and feed him a prescription formula. Well, trying to take care of an infant in agonizing pain, choking constantly on vomit through his nose, and pump enough to keep up my supply became too much once my husband returned to work. I only made it for a month. Once we decided to hire a nanny to take care of Ben so I could pump (also had serious latch issues that we hadn't resolved yet, he was in so much pain), I made the agonizing decision to do formula only. I thought it was worse to spend more time pumping (trying to get supply up) then holding my little guy.

As it turns out, this was the right decision, eliminating dairy, soy, wheat would not have been enough, now that he is on solids we've identified many more allergies, it would have taken months to identify. My heart still breaks, I never thought I would be a bottle-feeder. I know it was right for Ben, but it still drives me nuts when people make assumptions about my parenting style when they see me with a bottle.

About sleeping - we moved Ben to his own room at about 3 weeks of age, when we started a breathing monitor, the crib was severely angled, and we used 3 different products to keep him angled without moving to the side or sliding down. Many nights we debating bringing him in bed, but were so scared to be without the breathing monitor (it would have picked up our breathing if in our bed).

About Babycenter...their Reflux board was incredibly helpful to me, as is their food allergies board. a lot of big-hearted, helpful people. Now, my "birth month" board is AWFUl, so much CIO, I can't stand to read it any more - used to post messages discouraging CIO, now I've just given up, I hate visiting that board.

Anyway, that is my two cents...I rarely post because I sort of don't fit in anywhere. That said, after 8 long months, much fighting with doctors and much research on our part, we found the right combination of drugs, and my son is a happy, pain-free baby. The sling saved my life I think, he practically lived in there the first four months of his life.

So, let's please not judge, you never know WHY people have chosen their particular path. Ben is healthy now, is outgrowing reflux (we think, the medicine helps a ton), and hopefully will outgrow MSPI in a few years. Our choices were the right ones for Ben, even though they weren't what we originally intended. I probably used to judge those who I saw bottle feeding, so maybe this serves me right....









(oh, and we don't use J&J)

Dawn
Ben 6-15-04 (mommy, my tummy doesn't hurt anymore!)







boy:







:


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## laurenalanna (Feb 14, 2005)

Lucky dog, poor baby.

Our dog got the boot from the bed as soon as the baby was born. J&J definately has their priorities messed up.


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## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

LOL... we did the dog and the baby thing, a pushy wiener dog and a nursey baby... all night long.


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## aran (Feb 9, 2005)

The ad is meant to show the value and usefulness of the product. As far as I'm concerned, the ad can be interpreted as saying that the lotion works _so_ well, that your baby would _even_ sleep happily in a crib, although we _all_ know babies only sleep _*that*_ blissfully in bed with the babies' DPs (and maybe even the family dog)









According to this view, it's a purely AP commercial, and J&J is brilliant at showing the effectiveness of their product.


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## Vicitoria (Dec 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chicagodawn*
I hesitated to post here, because it started to get pretty heated, and some of the "non-AP" things we've had to do due to my son's illness still make me sad....

Anyway, that is my two cents...I rarely post because I sort of don't fit in anywhere. That said, after 8 long months, much fighting with doctors and much research on our part, we found the right combination of drugs, and my son is a happy, pain-free baby. The sling saved my life I think, he practically lived in there the first four months of his life.

:

Dawn, I'm so glad your son is doing well and you were able to post about it. It really helps to talk about it and there are so many people on these boards who have similar issues and a great deal of compassion. I hope you find you are able to post and find the support you need. I know what you mean about not fitting in anywhere. AP wishes before birth and AP realities are two different things. I hurts because you read about it, see it in action and know it's exactly what you want for your child. Then, as it turns out we give birth to individual human beings who have their very own needs that we need to figure out and fulfill and they are unique. Such is life. It would be so much easier if we could just shove our lives into a mold.








Vic


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## Vicitoria (Dec 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nannymom*
I can't beleive you think this is what's happening! It seems like you just want to get mad about this. I feel harassed at MDC b/c it seems like if you have a strong oppinion you'll be accused of harassing people.

I was just making a point, I'm not saying it is or isn't happenning. Again, interesting discussion to make one think.


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## Vicitoria (Dec 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Richelle*
Vicitoria, I was just thinking, that you posted the UA quote which says we are not to "bait" or be "adversarial", but _you_ are the one who keeps openly saying you're trying to start a debate or take the opposing side, just to see what happens. That is baiting, if you ask me. Just a thought. Not that I don't enjoy a nice debate, but purposely starting one just for the sake of seeing how everyone reacts is definitely baiting them. If I'm wrong, someone correct me.

What I said in my first posts were definitely my opinion and quite personal. What I try to do with something I feel so strongly about is try and grow from it and take it to the next level to give myself things to think about. I though perhaps others may want to come along for the ride of personal growth. Sorry if I offended. It was not my intent to bait nor my intent to be offensive or defensive. Just trying to make a point. Definitely my very own opinion and point. I just think the UA means we shouldn't bash anything or anyone. I personally felt bashed by the post itself saying "What's wrong with this picture?" Maybe I should have said "absolutely nothing" and moved on but I though perhaps other would like to see the other side of the perfect coin.

Richelle, we should meet sometime for a drink. Talk about some passionate discussions! Then again we'd probably sit and get a kick out of our kids playing together!


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vicitoria*
AP takes so much energy, why waste it?

Nothing to do with anything, but I know that I have a lot more energy at 35 using AP principles (which come naturally to me in the first place) than my friends in their 20s did parenting in, well, other styles. AP is so easy!

As for the ad, the picture in my head bugs me in so many ways!

I'm not a sleeping-with-animals kind of person. They lick their bits and try to lick you, they stick their bums in your face! Bleah! (we tried to let our cat, my first indoor cat, sleep with us because we adore her, but it was just too gross for me. the allergies didn't help, either.) As for dogs, good gracious that's just too much for me! I was raised by Alaskan Malamutes, and we slept in waterbeds...dog on bed was NOT going to happen!

Then there's the sleeping-with-door-open thing, as someone mentioned the view is from the crib to the parent's room and obviously doors are open. I hate doing that! Sometimes DH doesn't close the door all the way, and if I wake up to see that I have to push aside my thoughts of "there's a bad guy in the hallway, there's a ghost right there, ack ack ack" to get up and close the dang door so I can get back to sleep. Sometimes I have to just force myself to go back to sleep b/c the fear of what's on the other side is too high for me to touch the door.







So the fact that baby's and parent's room doors were open, augh.

So how's that for a bizarre reaction to the print ad?









As for J&J, naaaasty. So many people think it smells like a baby, but to me (after a few years of not smelling it at all) it just smells like chemicals. Then again, according to the warning someone posted, I should stay away from it anyway!









We use lavender oil in DS's wipes solution, so he smells like it anyway.


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## mandalamama (Sep 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Messac888*
More and more people are using organic products- the commerical most definitely wasn't for organic products. But it is nonetheless a commercial, and I still like their lavendar lotion- I use it on myself! Untill I find a lotion recipe to make my own lavendar lotion that leaves my skin feeling comparabe, I will probably continue to use J&J lavendar lotion. I have bought all of ONE bottle since my ds was born almost 3 years ago. Please don't hurt me!







:

i understand you







i think it's going to take us at least 3 years to go through a bottle of baby lotion or soap in this house, too! less is definitely more.

i looked into making my own lavender lotion, i couldn't find a baby-specific recipe for the safe amount of essential oil. (if anyone has a recipe, PM me please?) even natural, organic things can be unsafe for babies, we just need to do the research. i mean, some essential oils can irritate pretty badly. we're all pale, sensitive-skin types here so we're super careful about spot-testing.

re commercials and ads: it would be nice to see co-sleeping in an ad, like for a mattress or bedding. actually, i've seen one ad for, i think it was a fabric softener, with a dad sleeping in bed with his son. it made me smile


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## spsmom (Jun 19, 2004)

hey there, op here! i started this thread and then went out of town with no computer access. and can i just tell you all how excited i am that this is my first post where it actually brewed up some "discussions"! i know, how sad!

but really, i was so shocked this morning. i understand what some of the posters are trying to say, but really i was posting this in this particular forum because i didn't want to offend non cosleeping families. i was merely posting this to like minded moms to see if i was the only one who found it not in support of co sleeping. i was not attacking non ap families. or non cosleeping families. and that's my cue, ds just woke up from his nap. i will continue later.


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## catnip (Mar 25, 2002)

Personally, the idea of Johnson and Johnson using a happily sleeping dog in an ad for thier animal-tested products is a bit off putting to me. But I don't buy their stuff already, so I guess they don't care what _I_ think!


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## Zipporah (Feb 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollyeilis*
As for J&J, naaaasty. So many people think it smells like a baby, but to me (after a few years of not smelling it at all) it just smells like chemicals. Then again, according to the warning someone posted, I should stay away from it anyway!










Quote:


Originally Posted by *catnip*
Personally, the idea of Johnson and Johnson using a happily sleeping dog in an ad for thier animal-tested products is a bit off putting to me. But I don't buy their stuff already, so I guess they don't care what I think!

Also, for those MDCers who are pro-life, J&J are major corporate supporters of Planned Parenthood... just FYI.


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## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Weird, I had no idea they support PP. Well, that might give me the teeniest bit more respect for them... but, rubbing soap into the eyes of bunnies might cancel that out.


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## *Jessica* (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollyeilis*
I was raised by Alaskan Malamutes

:LOL Really? That must have been some upbringing!







Sorry, couldn't resist!

That ad would bother me, too. It just screams the idea that it's ok for a dog to sleep with you but not your baby. When Nik was born our dog got the boot.


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
You know, I bought that night time lotion thinking it would be nice and soothing...uhh, yeah, I'm not a label reader. Thank goodness dh is because this is what the back of the label reads:

And to think, I was going to use this on my chidren!!


The label warning didn't show up in my quote, but what i wanted to say is I think they have to put a warning like that on anything that contains chamomile because it is related to ragweed(I think) that many are allergic to. Not sure, but I've seen that on other products containing chamomile.

Also, ads like this, I agree, just perpetuate the idea that a baby's place is in the crib down the hall, an image which negatively influences families who want to co-sleep because they have to fight it all the time.

Although the positive of this ad is that it encourages parents to spend time massaging lotion into their babies when they might not otherwise.


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## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Baby massage is pretty well known, even to the mainstream. This ad also perpetuates the myth that partners won't get "alone time" unless the baby is in the crib. One of the most annoying arguments against co-sleeping is that it interferes with intimacy.


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheena*
Baby massage is pretty well known, even to the mainstream. This ad also perpetuates the myth that partners won't get "alone time" unless the baby is in the crib. One of the most annoying arguments against co-sleeping is that it interferes with intimacy.

That is annoying when people think co-sleeping interferes with intimacy.....but I tell you, a baby that isn't sleeping *reeeeeally* interferes with "intimacy"....







whether he's laying nearby or down the hall.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I mentioned to my dh that I was running low on hand lotion and wanted something that smelled really nice. I use a lot of lavender scented stuff (shampoo, etc) so guess what he picked up? Yep. His reasoning "well, it's lavender scented, and I know you like to use hand lotion before you go to bed..."

So cut to 2 weeks later. Him "I don't really like that smell, can you use one of the others?" :LOL Fortunately I got a huge supply from SIL. Nights he's not going to be around, I'll use the J&J, don't know how it does on baby skin, but it's nice on mine.


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## JBug (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheena*
Weird, I had no idea they support PP. Well, that might give me the teeniest bit more respect for them... but, rubbing soap into the eyes of bunnies might cancel that out.

Ahahahaha, very nice. I agree!

Animal testing sucks, weird smelly chemicals suck, dogs-cozy-in-bed-while-baby-is-in-a-cage-down-the-hall sucks, not seeing the AP lifestyle reflected in mass media sucks, and J & J sucks.

Not to mention, if there really was a product that could really make your baby sleep through the night, it would cost a loooooot more than four bucks a bottle.


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## kiahnsmum (Oct 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spsmom*
hey there, op here! i started this thread and then went out of town with no computer access. and can i just tell you all how excited i am that this is my first post where it actually brewed up some "discussions"! i know, how sad!

but really, i was so shocked this morning. i understand what some of the posters are trying to say, but really i was posting this in this particular forum because i didn't want to offend non cosleeping families. i was merely posting this to like minded moms to see if i was the only one who found it not in support of co sleeping. i was not attacking non ap families. or non cosleeping families. and that's my cue, ds just woke up from his nap. i will continue later.

i wondered where you had got to i read your op and then the several that followed i was going to post about an ad that i had seen but things seemed to get off the topic so i kept quiet! well now your back i can have a rant to you about an ad on t.v that is for a product probably similar to the U.S tylenol. The voice over says we all know how important it is to get 8 hours sleep, now you can rest easy knowing that your child can have a pain free sleep with 'nurofen',; the baby is in the crib and the mother sneaks out turns the light off and shuts the door and stands on the other side with a releived look on her face.







: yay lets just drug our babies up and forget about them for the rest of the night!


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## Mrs Otago (Mar 31, 2005)

But thought I'd throw in my .02.

The thing that makes me crazy about the J&J lavendar baths and whatnot is that they are so artificial.

I have bought lotions and potions in the hope of them getting a baby to sleep, but we are talking genuine essential oils - lavendar, chamomile etc. Not some lab-manufactured scent.

Frankly, I think J&J are trying to cash in on a trend towards things "aromatherapy" but I have my doubts about how genuine their products are.


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## Mrs Otago (Mar 31, 2005)

Not having any J&J crap to check the label, does it have sodium laureth sulphate? Never mind the lab manufactured scent....its SLS and parabens I won't have going near my babies!

ANd I take back the chamomile comment...my baby toiletries have rosemary and tea tree oil.


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## Godmother (Apr 19, 2005)

ok cause i live primarily in a phantasy world, i came up with a great image everyone who is hurt and pissed by this ad can put in their heads to calm them. ok imagine your on the set of the commercial and you get to meet and learn more about the baby, his/her parents, the actors, and the dog.

*Baby* He's been AP raised and is only really sleeping that soundly because mom put him to sleep and is still very near-by just off camera and the strangers posing as mom and dad are safely far away.

*The Real Parents* They are wonderful dedicated parents who were not asked to star in the commercial because the producer said they looked too "REAL" (i.e. tired, worn, from their tireless tending to baby's needs and too into the baby to give the director the attention he wants.)

*The actors* both actors are trying to concieve and took the commerical so they could recieve a life time supply of baby products. they are soo amazed by real mom and dad's devotion and understanding of baby that they too become Ap parenting converts.

*The Dog* rescued from a kill shelter by a No Kill animal shelter after being declared a threat, this good dog soon warmed to people actually caring for him. When he's not snoozeing on command in commercials such as this one, he's working as a advocate against animal testing. After his trainer, handler, owner and best friend found out how J & J tests on animal, she staged a protest that managed to discourage several parents to switch from J&J for life.

I'm not telling the AP people on this tread they should just ignore or cover up their feelig about there being a lack of AP representation on TV. Nor am I urging non APers to use this silly story as any type of justification. I just wrote this because this is how i try to mentally improve things when I can't actually improve the situation. i don't mean to add to the tension.

Peace


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## ayme371 (Jan 5, 2005)

I know this is slightly OT but I found this very interesting. You can find the safety rating of lots of household products that many use. Be careful, you can get sucked right in.









www.ewg.org/reports/skindeep/browse_products.php


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## quelindo (May 11, 2005)

Okay, I'm staying out of the whole debate and just mentioning that what really killed me about the ad is that the parents are fully covered up by blankets in the background and their baby is in just a diaper in the foreground.

Maybe it's because I'm someone who is always cold?


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## spsmom (Jun 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Godmother*
ok cause i live primarily in a phantasy world, i came up with a great image everyone who is hurt and pissed by this ad can put in their heads to calm them. ok imagine your on the set of the commercial and you get to meet and learn more about the baby, his/her parents, the actors, and the dog.

*Baby* He's been AP raised and is only really sleeping that soundly because mom put him to sleep and is still very near-by just off camera and the strangers posing as mom and dad are safely far away.

*The Real Parents* They are wonderful dedicated parents who were not asked to star in the commercial because the producer said they looked too "REAL" (i.e. tired, worn, from their tireless tending to baby's needs and too into the baby to give the director the attention he wants.)

*The actors* both actors are trying to concieve and took the commerical so they could recieve a life time supply of baby products. they are soo amazed by real mom and dad's devotion and understanding of baby that they too become Ap parenting converts.

*The Dog* rescued from a kill shelter by a No Kill animal shelter after being declared a threat, this good dog soon warmed to people actually caring for him. When he's not snoozeing on command in commercials such as this one, he's working as a advocate against animal testing. After his trainer, handler, owner and best friend found out how J & J tests on animal, she staged a protest that managed to discourage several parents to switch from J&J for life.

I'm not telling the AP people on this tread they should just ignore or cover up their feelig about there being a lack of AP representation on TV. Nor am I urging non APers to use this silly story as any type of justification. I just wrote this because this is how i try to mentally improve things when I can't actually improve the situation. i don't mean to add to the tension.

Peace

i know what you are saying ehre. i try to see the postive side in life. but i feel like i have been bombarded lately with anti AP by several outlets and after seeing this ad, i had just had it and i needed to vent! but i do stand by the fact that i am bothered by this ad.

ayme371- thanks for that link. scary!


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

LOL In MY house EVERYONE sleeps in the bed....mama, Zaker, the kitties...

--Melanie, proud co-sleeping mama to Zaker, 7 mos. and feline babies Dharma and Amira, who have also co-slept all their lives















:







:







:
I can't let a CAT 'CIO" why the heck would I do it to my SON??


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## vancouverlori (Sep 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ayme371*
You can find the safety rating of lots of household products that many use. www.ewg.org/reports/skindeep/browse_products.php










cool... thanks! I work in a pharmacy specializing in dermatology and it's nice to have one concise place to refer to for "safer" alternatives and exactly what the concerns are with the various chemicals. The argument that if you can't pronounce it, it must be bad for you doesn't work for me, because I can pronounce them all. Quite glibly! :LOL

I think that we have to remember that our discomfort with the image described by the OP is not because the ad is telling us that this is what you should do, or that what is happening in the ad reflects any reality, but that the ad represents mainstream thinking that says that you should buy something to make your baby sleep in a crib but it's ok if the dog sleeps in your bed.

While advertising does try to influence society, it also reflects what is considered normal in society.

It's not that the depicted image is bad, but that it represents society saying that it is to be expected. And that parents will bang their heads against walls and buy all kinds of junk and get really frustrated/angry and make their babies CIO to meet this expectation.

And I would totally buy some "shiznitz" that allowed me to have hot monkey sex. but it would be a different kind, to rub on DH, not DS!!!!!







He's just so







But I suppose cool porcupine sex is ok. ("careful, shhhhh")
-Lori


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