# Begging for epidurals



## PitBullMom (Sep 22, 2014)

I see this phrase over and over: "I begged for my epidural."

Is that serious? Or just a phrase that people use? 

I was in labor for 60 hours, with a single shot of morphine after about 24 hours to give me a little break. Besides that, I just dealt with it. There was a lot of other stuff going on, but after that much time, they said that an epidural might be a good idea because I hadn't slept, didn't want to eat or drink and was just exhausted in addition to being in the "usual" pain of labor.

When we decided that we wanted an epidural, there was no "begging." I said, "we talked about it, and we will have the epidural done," and they called the anesthesiologist and they came and did it. There were some issues with that, but nothing insurmountable. 

But where does the "begging" come in? If it's a procedure you want, then why would you have to "beg"?


----------



## profe (Aug 19, 2015)

I think that there are a lot of women who have very tolerable labors. A friend of mine told me her worst contractions were like her worst menstrual cramps. My first contractions were like my worst cramps. Eventually mine were so strong I thought I was literally going to split in two. I repeatedly begged my husband to kill me. When I pushed out my 2nd I may as well been pushing out a knife throwing chainsaw. So I can understand someone begging for an epidural. I had one with my first after pushing for 2 hours with no progress. I was tempted with my second but knew it was not in my best interest to do so. Some of us have bodies who respond much more to the sensation of contractions than others.


----------



## TheBugsMomma (Mar 24, 2015)

I've only had one baby, but I do agree it varies from woman to woman. I had a very easy labor, I labored a whole day, but I wasn't even sure I was in labor, it just felt like menstrual cramps. By bedtime it started to hurt pretty bad, my water broke and by the time we got to the birth center, about 20-30 min later I was at a 9.5. A nurse came in and told me they had to ask once if I wanted an epi, but if I said no they wouldn't ask again. I said no and I didn't think about until the next day when my dh said he was amazed I never begged for it. I think some women do because it just hurts worse for some than others. My labor was so fast I didn't have time to think about it, but I think if I was sitting in the hospital laboring for days, like my friend did. (3 days!!) I probably would have just to sleep.


----------



## littlebear3 (Jul 1, 2014)

pain perception is very real.There was even a study about redheads and their pain tolerance compared to other hair colors hehe. Some women are also more dramatic than others and that is more of a personality characteristic whereas others might be more of a realist and just goes with it never getting to the point of literally begging.

I will say as a person who has an extremely high pain tolerance, and had a long natural labor and delivery...nothing could compare to the back labor of a posterior baby. If my fear of the ridiculous size of the epidural needle entering my spine wasnt astronimical, i may have cracked and asked for one.So babys position and a myriad of factors come into play with who decides for or against an epidural.


----------



## elliha (Jul 20, 2014)

I was begged to have an epidural because appearently one cannot have as strong contractions as I had and not be in extreme pain. I hardly felt them... Part of my labor was very bad because I had a midwife who kept nagging me to have more nitrous gas and to have an epidural because I was in pain which I didn't feel and she got me into Neverland with the amount of gas she said I must have. It wasn't until she got off her skift and another midwife relized I was just high and very able to tolerate the pain that my labor started to progress (I had an induction and didn't have much pain despite the medicines) and I started to feel empowered because she could see that I was not joking when I said that I wasn't in that much pain. Towards the end I had gas and this time it was a great help instead. 

Other people I know have felt that labor was absolutely horrible with every pain killer known to man. It must be different for different women and for different births. A colleague had a 2 hour labor which was so intense she felt mentally disturbed afterwards. She lived outside town and did not arrive in time for an epidural but she said she would have had one if just for 30 seconds of peace.


----------



## profe (Aug 19, 2015)

I really do think it is a spectrum of sensation that is unique to each woman. I mean look at the pregnancies as a whole. Some women have zero morning sickness and others are hospitalized. Some have every ache and pain in the book, others are fine. Some swell, others don't retain even an ounce of water. I really think how our bodies transmit the pain of contractions is unique. And that regardless of the pain level, labor is still a tremendous work and amazing feat that each woman does for her baby.


----------



## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Eh, no needles near my spine. But I have short labors. I was uncomfortable but by the time I had a brief panic, I was in transition. 

Also, I worked with new moms for many years, the post epidural backaches and migraines are very real and very distracting while caring for a newborn.


----------



## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

IIRC- Epidurals need to be given by a specialist who is not automatically in the delivery room. In very small hospitals- there isn't always an anesthesiologist IN the hospital while you're laboring, so the person could have to be called in. (which sometimes leads to c-sections without an epidural!) So if the pain overwhelms you, from the first time you ask to be given an epidural, it can take time to get it. Most people in extreme pain aren't terribly rational- so will keep begging for help even though the begging won't cause it to come any more quickly. I've also seen some birthing class teachers who tell the partner "When they ask for an epidural during labor- don't let them!". Which is an idea that sickens me. But, yes, if you go into birth confident that you'll do it naturally, no epidurals,, and then realize that you need one, you can sometimes have to demand and beg and cajole and wheedle to get the dang thing because everyone goes "But your birthing plan says...". Because how dare someone change their mind!


----------



## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

My labor was not "manageable", and it did not feel like menstrual cramps.

I was at a hospital with 24 hour dedicated anesthesia on the L&D floor, but when I felt overwhelmed by pain, the anesthesiologist on duty was down the hall, getting someone else through a c-section. I am not proud of anything I did or said during the next hour and a half. I knew perfectly well that I was just going to have to wait, and I begged anyway.


----------



## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

sillysapling said:


> IIRC- Epidurals need to be given by a specialist who is not automatically in the delivery room. In very small hospitals- there isn't always an anesthesiologist IN the hospital while you're laboring, so the person could have to be called in. (which sometimes leads to c-sections without an epidural!)


Epidurals are administered by an anesthesiologist, someone who is always present for a c-section since it is major abdominal surgery. In the rare instance that there isn't time to administer an epidural before surgery begins general anesthesia is used, a c-section is never performed without anesthesia. 
It is true that in smaller community hospitals that an anesthesiologist may not be present at the hospital 24/7, requiring the laboring mom to wait until someone can be called in. 
I admit it, I begged for the epidural with my second daughter. After one hour of contractions I arrived at the hospital almost 9cm dilated and in insane pain. Definitely not the happiest moment in my life for sure.


----------



## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

TCMoulton said:


> Epidurals are administered by an anesthesiologist, someone who is always present for a c-section since it is major abdominal surgery. In the rare instance that there isn't time to administer an epidural before surgery begins general anesthesia is used, a c-section is never performed without anesthesia.


Sadly untrue. There's at least one person on here who talked about getting a c-section without anesthesia, an OB RN chimed in that this is _not_ an unheard of problem, and if you google 'c-section without anesthesia' you'll find other instances of it. It's NOT unheard of.

In the case I linked, I don't think even a local was used- and a local is still _very_ inadequate in many cases. I recall getting several local anesthetic shots and waiting for over half an hour to go numb when I've needed stitches and oral surgery- if they'd had to just dig in, I would've felt everything. In that case, giving a local when you have to do surgery before proper anesthesia is basically just doing it to say you did something.


----------



## PitBullMom (Sep 22, 2014)

How on earth could they cut into someone without any anesthesia? How would the mom be able to stay still???

I was in unreal pain for some of my labor, the back labor around hour 20 was the most pain I had ever been in in my life, but the rest was just really painful but doable. My mom told me that no matter how much it hurts, when it stops it doesn't linger. So I just waited through each one, and knowing it was going to stop helped me deal with it.

Yes, everyone handles pain differently, absolutely. After my epidural, I had break through pain twice, because he had rolled again and I was in back labor because I was stuck on my back of course. That whole thing is SUCH a setup for failure!!!

But my original question wasn't really about women who decide they want an epidural. I don't question that, it's the "I had to beg them to do it" that I was wondering about. Why on earth would it be denied after you decide you want one? And I know that there are medical reasons that they have to say no, but there are also just idiot medical practitioners who are, well, idiots.

My birth plan said that we weren't planning on an epidural and we didn't want one offered. We would ask about it when we were ready or wanted more information.


----------



## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

PitBullMom said:


> How on earth could they cut into someone without any anesthesia? How would the mom be able to stay still???


You hold them down. It's not ideal, but in emergencies- sometimes the option is "let the patient die waiting for anesthesia" or "do it without anesthesia". It's like in the movies when someone's out in the wilderness and gets shot or whatever and they need to dig out the bullet and stitch 'em up without any pain killers.

Only, y'know, it's happening in a freaking hospital.

I honestly don't know how often it happens. I think it's something that the medical community tries not to acknowledge, so I've never seen any studies, just enough firsthand accounts and a few news reports.



> I was in unreal pain for some of my labor, the back labor around hour 20 was the most pain I had ever been in in my life, but the rest was just really painful but doable. My mom told me that no matter how much it hurts, when it stops it doesn't linger. So I just waited through each one, and knowing it was going to stop helped me deal with it.


That's really helpful advice! My biggest problem was that I started getting so exhausted and I couldn't even sit down because the labor was so bad. It actually reached the point that, for an hour, I was so exhausted I actually fell asleep between contractions!



> But my original question wasn't really about women who decide they want an epidural. I don't question that, it's the "I had to beg them to do it" that I was wondering about. Why on earth would it be denied after you decide you want one? And I know that there are medical reasons that they have to say no, but there are also just idiot medical practitioners who are, well, idiots.
> 
> My birth plan said that we weren't planning on an epidural and we didn't want one offered. We would ask about it when we were ready or wanted more information.


Can you provide examples of healthcare professionals refusing an epidural? That might make it easier to answer your question, because I've never seen it.

I've only seen this come up in two cases:

1. The person was adamant about not wanting an epidural, doing the "Don't give me one even if I beg for it!", so their support team tried to honor that wish. Which is a crappy situation to be in.

2. The anesthesiologist isn't available, so you have to wait until they are.

I more often see doctors pushing epidurals. I imagine there could be specific health concerns that would make epidurals unsafe. But I personally haven't heard a situation where there was an anesthesiologist on hand, no medical conditions, and no prior objections to epidurals where a person was refused them.

I'm not saying it never happens, only that I've never heard of it so I can't comment on it.


----------



## PitBullMom (Sep 22, 2014)

sillysapling said:


> Can you provide examples of healthcare professionals refusing an epidural? That might make it easier to answer your question, because I've never seen it.


I'm basing the question on all of the posts I've read (not necessarily here) where people say "I begged them for hours to get an epidural," "I had to wait x hours until they would let me get one" etc etc.

My question is really, are people having to beg in the truest sense of the word? When I read "beg" I think "asking over and over for something that the other party doesn't want to give" or "having to convince the giving party that you really need/deserve it." Or is "beg" just the word that some people use for the heightened drama of the word.



sillysapling said:


> 1. The person was adamant about not wanting an epidural, doing the "Don't give me one even if I beg for it!", so their support team tried to honor that wish. Which is a crappy situation to be in.


That would stink for all involved. No one can know how labor is going to effect them, and the support people are only trying to honor their wishes. Not cool.



sillysapling said:


> 2. The anesthesiologist isn't available, so you have to wait until they are.


In which case, the procedure is coming, there is just a very unfortunate wait. In my case, there was a delay because I wanted no care from any men. Eventually, they had to send in a male doctor, with a female resident who did the procedure.



sillysapling said:


> I more often see doctors pushing epidurals. I imagine there could be specific health concerns that would make epidurals unsafe. But I personally haven't heard a situation where there was an anesthesiologist on hand, no medical conditions, and no prior objections to epidurals where a person was refused them.
> 
> I'm not saying it never happens, only that I've never heard of it so I can't comment on it.


Gotcha.


----------



## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

PitBullMom said:


> In which case, the procedure is coming, there is just a very unfortunate wait. In my case, there was a delay because I wanted no care from any men. Eventually, they had to send in a male doctor, with a female resident who did the procedure.


Yeah... but in the height of pain, you can still beg for an epidural even if you're rationally aware it won't make it come any damn faster. People have reported doing so in this very thread. I don't get why you don't understand that.

I cut my finger at school once. REAL bad. Stitches bad. The school didn't have a nurse every day so I had to sit in the office with ice and waited for my mom to come bring me to the doctor. (I may actually have imagined the ice- I'm not positive there was ice. There were bloody, bloody paper towels, though.) They couldn't even give me pain medicine. I still begged people to do something- make it stop, make it hurry, _do something_, *please*. I feel kind of sorry for the random visitors to the office... Did it do a damn thing to hurry it up? No. But I wasn't rational. I was in a lot of pain and desperately wanted someone to just hurry up and fix it. I didn't care about the damn reality, I just wanted help!

It's great that the pain wasn't so consuming that you were able to keep your head and uphold your demands for a female doctor and wait gracefully. Not everyone has that experience. Some people plead for death the pain is so bad.

People have answered your question. Why, exactly, is the answer not good enough for you? Why aren't you going to those threads and sending polite private messages to those people asking if they'd be willing to talk about their experience with you instead of making a general thread that people who've had that experience may never see?


----------



## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

Also, regarding waiting/begging - many hospitals have limits to when they'll do an epidural (patient must be at least X cm dilated), and many more have similar limits on admission to L&D. I know plenty of people who had to wait because they weren't dilated enough for hospital policies to allow them to be admitted, or given medication yet. I've also heard plenty of stories of women hearing that the hospital was willing to admit them and get them an epidural, but there wasn't an l&d room immediately available. They can't do epidurals in the triage area at l&d, or the ER.

Occasionally, I hear a horror story about hospital staff deliberately denying anesthesia, but these stories are quite rare.


----------



## PitBullMom (Sep 22, 2014)

sillysapling said:


> Some people plead for death the pain is so bad.


I was in that state when I was home in back labor. It wasn't pretty.



sillysapling said:


> People have answered your question. Why, exactly, is the answer not good enough for you?


Take a breath. I never said it wasn't good enough for me.



MeepyCat said:


> Occasionally, I hear a horror story about hospital staff deliberately denying anesthesia, but these stories are quite rare.


THIS is what I was wondering about. Asking and denial.

I asked for water after they gave me that gross chalk drink, they somehow neglected to tell me that after I had it, water wasn't an option. By the time I was in the OR I was absolutely begging, and eventually I turned to negotiating and bargaining. My anesthesiologist finally caved and let me have a wet washcloth. lol

So, I'm sitting here wondering what I'm really asking here... because I'm not trying to be an ass, but I'm not hearing what I think I want. And I'm realizing that I'm stuck on the semantics. I'm stuck on the power play. If you have to "beg" for help - be it pain relief, or anything else - then you are in a position where someone else had full power over you and you are dependent on them to provide something. And if you're begging, then that assistance is not coming in a timely manner, or not at all. I find that incredibly disturbing. I found it disturbing when I was going through it.

In any case, I didn't mean to offend anyone or be critical of your personal experience and I apologize if my posts were taken that way.


----------



## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

PitBullMom said:


> So, I'm sitting here wondering what I'm really asking here... because I'm not trying to be an ass, but I'm not hearing what I think I want. And I'm realizing that I'm stuck on the semantics. I'm stuck on the power play. If you have to "beg" for help - be it pain relief, or anything else - then you are in a position where someone else had full power over you and you are dependent on them to provide something. And if you're begging, then that assistance is not coming in a timely manner, or not at all. I find that incredibly disturbing. I found it disturbing when I was going through it.


My issue with these semantics is that I think you're taking a rather blunt interpretation of the situation that comes out to "medical staff are evil," and it feels a little like you're fishing for cases where begging is the result of bad actors in the medical establishment.

In fact, begging does NOT always mean someone has power over the beggar, or that a person with power is failing in their responsibilities. When I was begging for an epidural, the people who handed out epidurals were acting as responsibly as they could to get me pain relief as soon as possible. It wasn't a power play. There was a scarce resource, and a reasonable allocation system, and these combined did not get me what I wanted right away.

Conversation on MDC has a strong tendency to assume that mothers are wronged by the establishment, and those of us who don't feel this narrative is accurate in our cases often feel misinterpreted. This is one such case.


----------



## MyFillingQuiver (Sep 7, 2009)

I'm a naturally minded mama..I've birthed babies naturally time and time again...I easily pushed out a 10 lb 9 oz baby boy in my bedroom..it wasn't very tough.

Other times? Particularly when feeling scared, unsupported..when I was younger and coming from a mainstream philosophy? I did, indeed beg for an epidural. I had one. It worked, I wasn't injured. My baby did not come out sick, drowsy, unable to feed..in fact he was one of my most easily nursed babies.

On the other hand, my first pregnancy was a botched misdiagnosis of a severe illness by military doctors. In labor, at a young age, scared, told I would have a stroke due to my BP unless I allowed all kinds of things, and my "son would have to visit me in a nursing home", an epidural would have been exactly what would have helped. I was denied one, time and again.

As educated, experienced, and probably able to well deliver babies of other women myself in emergency situations, without batting an eye, I will say I absolutely 100% believe women shouldn't be demonized for pain control in labor.

Not all women feel pain the same. Not all women are confident. Not all women are exempt from other experiences. Not all women can get to a place of peace and calm and submission to the process, even if they believe they can. This can also vary from pregnancy to pregnancy.

I still dream of going into obstetrics when my children are grown, so I can stop this ridiculous idea that anyone else should tell another woman how she should feel while delivering her own child. I would focus on education and the goal would be to naturally move through pregnancy and labor and delivery without pain medications. However, I'd be the kindest, most loving and supportive woman, no matter how she "failed" the natural community.


----------



## MyFillingQuiver (Sep 7, 2009)

PitBullMom said:


> I see this phrase over and over: "I begged for my epidural."
> 
> Is that serious? Or just a phrase that people use?
> 
> But where does the "begging" come in? If it's a procedure you want, then why would you have to "beg"?


The "begging" comes in when women are disregarded. When they are told they can't have pain relief, or don't need it. When they are lied to and said "it's coming". They beg when some inept hospitals don't employ 24/7 anesthesiologists, (yes that still exists), so they have to continually beg as they wait and suffer. For a woman that decides in labor she needs an epidural, it's inhumane to tell her "no", when perhaps that is her mental/physical lifeline. If epidurals aren't options, they shouldn't be touted as such.

I think it's the very best choice to not have pain meds/epidurals in labor. 100%, and that's been what has been right for me for a very long time. The same as breastfeeding. However, not everyone is me, and she's still a mother, and her story of motherhood is bigger than if she delivered differently than me.


----------



## PitBullMom (Sep 22, 2014)

MeepyCat said:


> Conversation on MDC has a strong tendency to assume that mothers are wronged by the establishment, and those of us who don't feel this narrative is accurate in our cases often feel misinterpreted. This is one such case.


My son is eleven months old today. Only yesterday did I see the lab results from my labor. They are eye opening, and because of what's in there we are switching providers. I had some FANTASTIC medical care during my labor, and I had some things that were missed / not acted on (for what reason, we don't know) that could have killed me; and nearly did.

Originally I wanted a home birth, as did my husband. Over time, I became more and more uncomfortable with that idea. Had we pushed through with that goal, neither my son nor I would likely be here, as I was in multiple organ failure. Some of my care was brilliant, especially a few of the midwives, some of the nurses, my surgeon and my anesthesiologist. The rest? They were good. And a few were downright negligent; and then there was the one who just needs to find a different line of work.

The establishment can, and does, save lives. It also can ruin them through pushed interventions and also interventions that are denied.

I really don't know what I'm "looking for." I'm scared that I won't find a better set of practitioners than the ones I want to leave. Because we thought they _were _a great fit for us. We don't want a medical birth, but we want that option for us if we need it again, because without it I'd be dead. But we don't want it pushed on us before it's really necessary. Then again, we also have to trust that when intervention is truly needed it will be discussed with us; and it wasn't, and that became very very dangerous.


----------



## Ratchet (Mar 24, 2011)

I have been at many births at many New England hospitals of varying sizes. I have seen women beg only because there is an inherent wait time from request until pain relief, or less often because they were in very early labor - like 2 cm, although then they might be offered a narcotic. I have never seen women refused just because. I have seen women mistreated in many ways, but never by with holding anesthesia. The fact is, if it's a power issue, giving an epidural to the mom gives a lot of power to the doctor.


----------



## rideswithchrist (Jan 27, 2012)

Stepping in as a natural birther who is training to become a Birth Boot Camp Instructor, I think that many women are not prepared for the pain of labor and they do not have a full support team there that is able to encourage them at the point of "I can't do this anymore". 
Not every woman knows how to manage pain and hospitals are not always quick to tell her to go take a warm bath with a heavy counter pressure on her sacrum while she moans. 

I know that for some, an epidural means labor progressing because her fear of the pain is causing more pain, which is causing a stall in labor because she is tired and tense. 

I refuse to believe that even the women with a low threshold of pain can't "pull off" a drug-free labor when 100 years ago, they would have no choice but they would be attended by people that have seen labors no other way than drug-free. 

I was just in the hospital yesterday for my miscarriage to make sure it was not ectopic and when they gave me the IV, which I agreed to because I was dehydrated, I noticed the med bottle and asked if I was only getting Saline. He said "Oh, I am going to give you some morphine too" and was shocked and questioned me when I told him I did not want or need morphine. 
Hospitals feel they are doing a service to women by them having a painless labor, so many are not educated to what the pain is doing and how it has a purpose and how it does not last long (and I had a 2 hour transition while my body waited to get from 9-10!).

My thought process on this is "EVERY WOMAN deserves a natural birth with a midwife, but we need to count our blessings for those women that will need medical management". 
90% of women have no need of medical intervention and monitoring to have a baby but those women that think it is normal to deliver in a hospital with an OBGYN/Surgeon are sorta gumming up the works for the 10% that really truly need to be cared for by an OB that has the time to care for them. 

Epidurals should not be treated as routine or offered to every woman that walks in the door and they may be able to manage the pain better if more doctors think they can. But that is the Medical Standard of Care (look for a problem at every corner) vs Midwifery Model of Care (your body can do this by itself).

Now, if a mom wants and epidural and knows the risks and could care less about those risks, that is her right-regardless of what I think of it


----------



## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

Rideswithchrist, it's actually huge medical progress to offer every woman an epidural, and allow her to make the choice to have it or not for herself, as opposed to offering the epidural only when medical personnel felt convinced that the patient was in dire straits, or in "enough" pain to "deserve" it.

It's normal and natural that women are unprepared for the pain of labor. Labor isn't something you can practice. Childbirth is a process by which women use muscles that they don't get to practice with to move a large-ish object from inside to outside, via a passage composed of their most sensitive parts. It was recognized as a painful and dangerous activity in the Old Testament, which describes it as a punishment from God. Some women get lucky, but many experience serious pain.



> hospitals are not always quick to tell her to go take a warm bath with a heavy counter pressure on her sacrum while she moans.


The hospitals I gave birth in didn't have bathtubs available in every, or even in most, delivery suites. And these were pretty swanky hospitals. So no - they weren't quick to tell me to take a warm bath. There was no place for me to do that. (The first time. The second time was an all-hands-on-deck emergency c/s, no labor, and no one in their right mind was letting me stand up, let alone go near a bathtub.)

For me - my epidural was not 100% awesome. It had some failings common to epidurals. However, my labor pain made me want to bang my head against walls and scream, and being relatively comfortable and, consequently, coherent made it possible for me to participate in medical and logistical decision-making. I discussed pitocin, fired a resident off my case, and walked through my birth plan with a doctor. Also, the epidural made it possible for me to rest, which in turn made it possible for me to get through a very prolonged pushing phase. (Maybe pushing wouldn't have been prolonged without the epidural. I don't know, and I honestly don't think anyone else does either.)

A hundred years ago, I'd have had to get through all that with no medication. My great grandmothers did just that (although reports from people who were there suggest that they were no more comfortable, and no quieter, than I was). My great grandmothers thought that having a first baby at thirty was risky. My great grandmothers knew women who died from all kinds of causes, including exhaustion, in labor.

While it's true that many women can get through labor without medical intervention, it's NOT true that those women are "gumming up the works" or otherwise preventing women who do need help from getting it. Furthermore, it's emphatically not true that we can tell in advance which women are definitely not going to need help.


----------



## PitBullMom (Sep 22, 2014)

MeepyCat said:


> Rideswithchrist, it's actually huge medical progress to offer every woman an epidural, and allow her to make the choice to have it or not for herself, as opposed to offering the epidural only when medical personnel felt convinced that the patient was in dire straits, or in "enough" pain to "deserve" it.


And the other side of that coin is the rolled eyes and snarky comments when you say you don't want one. Because "everyone ends up wanting one" and "just wait until you feel a contraction" and "what are you trying to prove" and other nastiness.

I went 60 hours before I got one because I wanted to have a natural birth. I finally got one because I hadn't slept or had any rest longer than 9 minutes in those 60 hours, and I hadn't had anything to eat in about 24 hours. I needed rest, and it was crushing to me to accept that I needed it. But I got a couple hours of rest before the next round of problems started, so that part was good.



MeepyCat said:


> A hundred years ago, I'd have had to get through all that with no medication. My great grandmothers did just that (although reports from people who were there suggest that they were no more comfortable, and no quieter, than I was). My great grandmothers thought that having a first baby at thirty was risky. My great grandmothers knew women who died from all kinds of causes, including exhaustion, in labor.
> 
> While it's true that many women can get through labor without medical intervention, it's NOT true that those women are "gumming up the works" or otherwise preventing women who do need help from getting it. Furthermore, it's emphatically not true that we can tell in advance which women are definitely not going to need help.


A hundred years ago, I'd be dead and so would my son. My kidneys were bleeding and my liver was failing, and I never got past about 8 cm even after a total of 70 hours of labor - the last ten with an epidural and pitocin.

My epidural caused permanent damage to my back and I have been in constant pain for almost a year.


----------



## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

> A hundred years ago, I'd have had to get through all that with no medication.


Not true.

Anesthesia was acceptable after Queen Victoria used it in 1857 for the birth of her last child. So, we are talking 159 years. And it was given to her in the Royal Castle.

And if she used it then, you know that someone else was using it illegally somewhere else years before.

One hundred years ago, women were all ready going to the hospital for regular births. It was in 1916 that ob/gyns decided "Once a Caesarean, always a Caesarean". Medical doctors all ready ran midwives out of business. Need to update the cliches.


----------



## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

Applejuice, the fact that labor analgesia was available to Queen Victoria in 1857 absolutely did not mean it was available to the average woman giving birth at that time, or for quite some time later. I deeply question your understanding of obstetrical history.

(One reason we do c-sections more now than we did in 1916 is that in 1916, we didn't have decent antibiotics. In that circumstance, any surgery at all was life-threatening. I can hunt around and find heated debates in medical journals about the advisability of c-section for placenta previa at that time - many doctors felt it was safer to attempt maneuvers via the vagina guaranteed or near guaranteed to kill the baby than it was to cut open the mother for any reason.)


----------



## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Yes, hurry up go hunt those down.

Meanwhile know one thing. Those doctors who delivered Queen Victoria practiced on lots of regular women before they got it right. Queen Victoria had very experienced obs working on her with well tested methods of delivering anesthesia, tested on other laboring women, who were most probably not told of the experimental nature of the procedure. She would have nothing less.

Anesthesia was in use during labor, secretly, as it was largely discouraged by religious zealots as women were supposed to suffer the "curse of Eve'.

Caesarean section deliveries were known in Roman times and they are recorded in many histories, although the surgery was usually done only if the mother had died; the word comes from the Latin word to cut. In Shakespeare's MacBeth, the character of McDuff is referred to as having been,"ripped from his mother's womb for an untimely birth". Dr Ignaz Semmelweis MD was urging doctors to please wash their hands in 1850-60 before attending to pregnant and postpartum mothers.

As for my understanding of the history of obstetrics, remember that I am old enough to have lived through most of it, having helped deliver my own younger siblings and my own children. There is evidence of the use of forceps as early as 1634. Read the book _Witches, Midwives, and Nurses_ for a feminist view of the HERstory of women caretakers. http://www.amazon.com/Witches-Midwives-Nurses-Contemporary-Classics/dp/1558616616/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1458508933&sr=8-1&keywords=witches%2C+midwives%2C+nurses

The knowledge and practice are there, but doctors are slow to change. Penicillin was "discovered" in 1928, after studies had discussed it in France in 1897 and in Italy in 1895, and many households knew moldy bread was a fair treatment for some illnesses for a long time.


----------



## PitBullMom (Sep 22, 2014)

Planet wide, most births are NOT at hospitals in 2016, so I'm not sure how 100 years ago pain medication would have been available to the general population when that isn't even the fact now.


----------

