# Desperate. Desperate. thread- UPDATE our vacation!



## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

I wasn't sure exactly where to post this, but the majority of the "problem" revolves around sleep.. so here goes-

A little background- DS is 8.5 months old, high needs, had/has reflux, food allergies, etc. All of which have been remidied. We currently cosleep, and I currently cater to his every fuss/cry as best as I can.

But I am so far past my capacity, and I NEED a change.

Right now, to get him to sleep (when he is TIRED, not on any sort of SCHEDULE) it involves a very careful process (starting in his dark room, void of all lights/sounds) of rocking/nursing/shusshing/singing Silent Night/bum patting/jiggling.. then once he is asleep I take him into my room to the bed, lay him down in which he 99% of the time wakes up, and so I lay beside him and nurse him back to sleep.. then I wait a few minutes and try to remove my nipple from his mouth, try a few times before I succeed, then slowly carefully get off of the bed and insert pillow in my place. I make sure the temp is very comfortable for him, and have a white-noise fan going. I turn on the monitor and shut the door, so that no sounds outside wake him. For naps, he usually wakes every 30-45 minutes and needs to be side-nursed back to sleep for about 10-20 minutes before I can get up again. He usually sleeps a total of 2-3 hours for the nap.

This process is incredibly draining, and he has become harder and harder to get to sleep. I can't keep spending all of this time getting him to sleep. It takes me longer to get him to sleep than he actually sleeps! At night he wakes at LEAST hourly (other than 2-3 "good" nights a month, where he wakes every 2-3 hours). I am so far beyond exhausted it's not funny. I need a change.

We are stuck to our house most of the time. I can't go anywhere longer than 1-2 hours, because I can't get him to sleep anywhere else (besides the occasional car-nap). We are taking 2 vacations this summer and i don't know HOW I am going to be able to get him to sleep while we're there. And if he doesn't sleep, he just cries and fusses until he finally does sleep.

Honestly, I have been contemplating CIO. I don't want to. I don't even think I could go through with it. But I NEED a change. I need him to NOT FIGHT me when he is tired and needs to sleep. I need it to take less time/effort to get him to sleep. And I need him to STAY asleep for his naps, and for longer stretches at night.

In a perfect world, I would love to nurse him down in bed for his naps/nighttime, have him stay asleep during his whole nap, and sleep at least 3 hour chunks at night.

How do I do this in a gentle way? Please. Please. Please. I CAN'T take "no" for an answer anymore. I am trying to follow his lead, but it is quickly making me unable to cope anymore.

Please. Someone has to have an answer for me.


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## SBear12 (May 6, 2009)

You just described my life, word for word, except my daughter is 7 months old. I posted about it a couple days ago. All I can say is I totally understand. She is up every 20-45 mins, all night long... the very, very seldom 2 hour chunk feels like a day at the spa.

Wish I could do more to help (both of us!), but in the meantime, just sending a hug.


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

A baby that is waking every 45 minutes to an hour at night sounds to me like a baby that could be in pain. Have you considered food sensitivities? If it were me, I would try eliminating dairy and soy (wheat and certain vegetables can also cause a baby a lot of pain)--it can take 2 weeks to get completely out of your system. I did this with my DD, and her sleep got SOOOO much better. It was absolutely terrible to give up cheese, but the extra sleep was worth it.

Although, I don't think it's that unusual for an 8 month old to wake after 30-45 minutes during a nap. Their sleep cycles are about that long, and then they go into a light awakening, realize that they're alone (8 months is prime time for separation anxiety) and need to be parented back to sleep. Some researchers believe that this is a protection mechanism against SIDS--if they were to fall into a very deep sleep at such a young age, they would be unlikely to rouse themselves if they had trouble breathing and be at more risk for SIDS. As he gets older, his sleep cycles will begin to lengthen, he will begin to sleep more deeply, and you'll get those 2-3 hour naps.

The one way I could usually get my DD to get through that light awakening during her naps was motion--walking in a sling, wrap, Ergo, etc. or driving in a car usually got her through that 30 minute mark without having to be nursed back to sleep.

That's also the age where a pretty horrible sleep regression hits. This article really helped me when I couldn't figure out what the heck was going on with my DD at that age: What Are Sleep Regressions Anyway


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:

A baby that is waking every 45 minutes to an hour at night sounds to me like a baby that could be in pain. Have you considered food sensitivities? If it were me, I would try eliminating dairy and soy (wheat and certain vegetables can also cause a baby a lot of pain)--it can take 2 weeks to get completely out of your system. I did this with my DD, and her sleep got SOOOO much better. It was absolutely terrible to give up cheese, but the extra sleep was worth it.
He has several allergies, dairy being the biggest, and I have been dairy free since he was 4 weeks old. I had him tested and I eliminated all of the allergens that he tested positive for for 3 weeks, and saw NO difference in his sleep. I still am dairy free, and I limit the other foods that he tested positive for.

Quote:

Their sleep cycles are about that long, and then they go into a light awakening, realize that they're alone (8 months is prime time for separation anxiety) and need to be parented back to sleep.
We cosleep at night, so he isn't alone. Also, about 50% of the days I nap with him, and he still wakes up just as much.


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
He has several allergies, dairy being the biggest, and I have been dairy free since he was 4 weeks old. I had him tested and I eliminated all of the allergens that he tested positive for for 3 weeks, and saw NO difference in his sleep. I still am dairy free, and I limited the other foods that he tested positive for.

We cosleep at night, so he isn't alone. Also, about 50% of the days I nap with him, and he still wakes up just as much.

Hmmm, maybe try eliminating the other foods he tested positive for, rather than just limiting? My understanding was that even a small amount in your system can cause a sleep disturbance--the folks on the allergy board know much more about this stuff though.

Yes, even if I napped with my DD, she also still woke up every 30 minutes or so. That's why I tried the motion and found it got her through that waking. At night, of course I couldn't do that (couldn't sling her to get her to sleep longer). I guess some people have success with hammocks and the Amby bed for that reason.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
Hmmm, maybe try eliminating the other foods he tested positive for, rather than just limiting? My understanding was that even a small amount in your system can cause a sleep disturbance--the folks on the allergy board know much more about this stuff though.

Yes, even if I napped with my DD, she also still woke up every 30 minutes or so. That's why I tried the motion and found it got her through that waking. At night, of course I couldn't do that (couldn't sling her to get her to sleep longer). I guess some people have success with hammocks and the Amby bed for that reason.

Well like I said, I did eliminate everything for 3 weeks and there was no change. He tested positive to so many things (and there is only a 50% chance that they are actually allergic when they react to the test) that I couldn't eat hardly anything. I am thinking of doing it again just to see..

I can't wear him around the house for 3 hours so that he'll nap straight through. He weighs 24 lbs and my back/shoulders start hurting after wearing him for 20 minutes. It takes at least an hour of walking around wearing him before he goes to sleep in a carrier, IF he goes to sleep.


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
I can't wear him around the house for 3 hours so that he'll nap straight through. He weighs 24 lbs and my back/shoulders start hurting after wearing him for 20 minutes. It takes at least an hour of walking around wearing him before he goes to sleep in a carrier, IF he goes to sleep.

How about a stroller walk then? It never worked for me to walk around the house, but I usually went out for an walk in the neighborhood with her--I got exercise and some fresh air, she slept longer.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
How about a stroller walk then? It never worked for me to walk around the house, but I usually went out for an walk in the neighborhood with her--I got exercise and some fresh air, she slept longer.

He won't fall asleep in the stroller either. The only other way he will fall asleep other than the way I described in my OP is in the car. And that's not always a sure thing either. And I certainly can't drive around for 3 hours a day.


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Yeah, if motion doesn't work, I can't think of how you could get such a young baby to sleep through that light awakening without nursing. Maybe someone else has some magic they can think of.


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## LCBMAX (Jun 18, 2008)

I'm sure that my solution is not the one you want, but it's the one that worked for me: a well-stocked iPod, complete with movies. That was for me, obviously. It made me able to stand having to lie down with my son for EVERY nap at the same age. That was when he was no longer comfortable napping in the carrier on me, and had not yet graduated to napping in the stroller.

Submitting (once again) to baby's need for my presence, and giving up on comparing our situation to those of my friends with clean houses whose babies slept great was the most helpful, and hard to do. The iPod just made it more entertaining, and took my mind off my frustration. I often dozed while listening to my podcasts.

Far off good news - he's now 15 months old and he is napping alone as I write this! This has just begun to happen in the last month, and I can't believe other people have had this kind of freedom all along.

As an aside, I recommend the white noise mp3s that my husband made for us and shares for free at:
http://cantonbecker.com/music/white-noise-sleep-sounds/
There is a version with a subtle heartbeat and some wave-like variation which helps our son more than continuous same-ness, and may be better for auditory development.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LCBMAX* 

Submitting (once again) to baby's need for my presence, and giving up on comparing our situation to those of my friends with clean houses whose babies slept great was the most helpful, and hard to do. The iPod just made it more entertaining, and took my mind off my frustration.

Yeah, that is what I have been doing for the last 8.5 months. I have no expectations of me cleaning-wise, I sit at home and cater to Liam's every need. But I CAN'T do it anymore. And like I said, we are planning 2 vaca's this summer, and we will all be miserable the entire time if we don't figure out something soon. If maybe ONE aspect of the issues we are having would change, I think I would be ok with that. It isn't JUST that he FIGHTS sleep, or JUST that he doesn't stay asleep, or JUST that he needs a LOT of parenting to get to sleep, it isn't JUST that he needs the "perfect" environment to stay asleep, it isn't JUST that he won't sleep longer than an hour at night and 30 minutes during the day, it is the combination of all of those.

I need us to be a FAMILY, and for us to exist (more) mutually. It is all about Liam right now, and he isn't a tiny newborn anymore, I need a little bit of a life. I need sleep at night.

I know, I have a child now and that everything is different. But I am having to work ENTIRELY too hard to keep him happy, my own needs are NOT coming CLOSE to being met, my relationship with my husband is suffering, and something HAS TO change.

I need some options. Some BTDT advice maybe of something that worked for someone? Nightweaning? Keeping him up when he wakes up during his nap? Not putting him down for a nap during the day and letting him fuss all day so he sleeps better at night? Moving him to his crib? I don't even know where to start to get things to change... Please, someone!


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## LCBMAX (Jun 18, 2008)

So sorry if I didn't read your post carefully enough - it wasn't clear to me that you were already lying down with him for the whole nap and still only getting the shorties. Aaarrrrgh. Lots of sympathy to you.

We had great experiences travelling - discovered that our baby was way more resilient than we expected with time changes, rowdy cousins, late nights, drives in taxis, etc. I hope you find great things on the road even if no changes happen before then, but better that you get both.

Good luck.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LCBMAX* 
So sorry if I didn't read your post carefully enough - it wasn't clear to me that you were already lying down with him for the whole nap and still only getting the shorties. Aaarrrrgh. Lots of sympathy to you.

We had great experiences travelling - discovered that our baby was way more resilient than we expected with time changes, rowdy cousins, late nights, drives in taxis, etc. I hope you find great things on the road even if no changes happen before then, but better that you get both.

Good luck.

I sure hope that is the case for us.. however, I don't think it will be. We have had a few 'day trips' recently, where we were gone from home all day to visit family, and he did horribe. Would. NOT. nap. At all. And was a complete grump the whole time. He needs his sleep or he is extremely unhappy and fussy, and right now I do all I can to get him to sleep and stay asleep as much as he needs it, but if we are not at home, it doesn't happen at all....


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Well this might get me flamed but whatever. I can take it.

I recently moved my son to a crib in his own room. He still wakes up every couple of hours but that is better than the constant waking he was doing when he slept with us. He seems to do much better nursing while I sit up in the glider than he did sidelying in bed. I think that really upset his tummy. Also, I think he is just really over-sensitive to the noise and movement of others. I'll be honest and say I miss him terribly. This was not how I envisioned things. I want him with me. Sometimes I try to bring him back in bed, but I am quickly reminded of why I moved him. I had to do it. I have another child to take care of, and I was losing my mind. I am still sleep deprived and barely functioning sometimes, but it is so much better than it was.

Also, he does very short naps too, 30 minutes tops, and I stopped trying to get him back to sleep. Sometimes I'll give it a try for a minute or two but thats about it. Again, another child to take care. No way can I spend all day trying to get this kid to nap. I try to make sure he has 2 to 3 chances for a real nap somewhere quiet and dark, but that is all I can do. He is a bit cranky and rough around the edges from the lack of napping, but that is life. He is welcome to fall asleep at any time nursing, in the car, in the sling, but I am not wasting the entire day on actively trying to get him to nap.

Anyway, that may not be the most AP answer, but for me this was all a matter of survival for all of us. It sounds like you are pretty desperate. I would suggest letting go of some of your ideals and do what you need to do...crib, pacifier, whatever makes things easier for you. I wouldn't bother with CIO. In addition to just being mean, it often doesn't work anyway, especially with high needs babies. Plus I've heard you have to redo it a lot.

Anyway, good luck whatever you choose to do. I've seen a lot of your posts about your little one, and I know how hard things must be getting for you. I hope things turn around soon.


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## mckennasmomma (Sep 29, 2008)

Typing 1-handed as my 8.5 mo old sleeps in my lap!

here are some things i do that help:
-completely eliminated caffeine from my diet (chocolate too!)
-before bed give 1 tsp of chamomile tea and 1 Calms Forte
-dd naps 3 x a day...basically she is never awake for more than 2 hours except for her evevning stretch before bedtime.

if i am reading right, liam naps just once a day for 3 hours? personally i would let him wake up after 45 mins, then get him back down for another nap or two throughout the day. my dd's 3 naps vary in length from 35mins-1:45. typically i stay with her for the first 45 mins to "make sure" it is at least that long then i get up and she can either stay asleep or wake up. maybe getting in a different rhythm like that might help?


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## SimonMom (May 19, 2004)

First, I would definately stop trying to get him to stay asleep for a three hour nap at 8 months. My guys all have had the typical 45 min sleep cycle. They were taking 2 naps at that age. They usually started switching to one nap at 12-14 months. At night, I would keep an eye on when he usually falls asleep, and aim for that window. For example, my 15 m/o falls asleep b/w 7 and 7:30. When I notice he is starting to get tired, but not actually overtired, I put him to bed. I use an exercise ball and bounce and nurse him to sleep while I read a book or surf the net. Anyway, I would try sticking to a certain window. I find for me that a loose schedule makes for a happier baby then no schedule.

For the night wakings, I remember I was up a lot with my first boy. I would look at the clock, and count the hours, and fully wake up whenever he woke up. I would worry about how much sleep I was getting. I really believe that how *I* was not sleeping soundly affected how often he woke. With my third, I just don't care and don't worry anymore, and he has always slept fairly well. Their are times when he's teething and he wakes up more often. But I suggest you throw away the clock, stop counting how often he wakes up, and go to sleep like you used to before you had a baby. i.e. don't worry about it. Once you are sleeping deeply and soundly next to your babe, I think he will too. I definately fall into a deeper sleep with my third then I did with my first, just because I was so worked up about it. I think you just have to not care first.

On the waking up before you come to bed, I don't have any suggestions. My youngest still does that too.


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## LCBMAX (Jun 18, 2008)

I'll second and third that on the second and third naps. We had NO nap schedule til 7 - 8 months and then it was 45 - 60 min three times a day (mama and breast in attendance.)
First nap was 2 hours after waking, second nap was 2 hours after first nap ended, etc, but no napping after 5 pm and a bedtime routine starting at 6pm and ending 30 - 60 minutes later depending.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
Well this might get me flamed but whatever. I can take it.

I recently moved my son to a crib in his own room. He still wakes up every couple of hours but that is better than the constant waking he was doing when he slept with us. He seems to do much better nursing while I sit up in the glider than he did sidelying in bed. I think that really upset his tummy. Also, I think he is just really over-sensitive to the noise and movement of others. I'll be honest and say I miss him terribly. This was not how I envisioned things. I want him with me. Sometimes I try to bring him back in bed, but I am quickly reminded of why I moved him. I had to do it. I have another child to take care of, and I was losing my mind. I am still sleep deprived and barely functioning sometimes, but it is so much better than it was.

Also, he does very short naps too, 30 minutes tops, and I stopped trying to get him back to sleep. Sometimes I'll give it a try for a minute or two but thats about it. Again, another child to take care. No way can I spend all day trying to get this kid to nap. I try to make sure he has 2 to 3 chances for a real nap somewhere quiet and dark, but that is all I can do. He is a bit cranky and rough around the edges from the lack of napping, but that is life. He is welcome to fall asleep at any time nursing, in the car, in the sling, but I am not wasting the entire day on actively trying to get him to nap.

Anyway, that may not be the most AP answer, but for me this was all a matter of survival for all of us. It sounds like you are pretty desperate. I would suggest letting go of some of your ideals and do what you need to do...crib, pacifier, whatever makes things easier for you. I wouldn't bother with CIO. In addition to just being mean, it often doesn't work anyway, especially with high needs babies. Plus I've heard you have to redo it a lot.

Anyway, good luck whatever you choose to do. I've seen a lot of your posts about your little one, and I know how hard things must be getting for you. I hope things turn around soon.

Thank you for your honesty. I, too, am thinking that we may have to move him to his crib. He is such a light sleeper, he wakes up anytime either of us moves at all. And if we do it, I will miss him, because I love "sleeping" with him snuggled next to me.

I've even been trying to give him a paci, but he just bites/chews it and plays with it.... I really didn't think CIO would work for him.. but, like I said, I feel like I am running low on options and some things need to change.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SimonMom* 
First, I would definately stop trying to get him to stay asleep for a three hour nap at 8 months. My guys all have had the typical 45 min sleep cycle. They were taking 2 naps at that age. They usually started switching to one nap at 12-14 months. At night, I would keep an eye on when he usually falls asleep, and aim for that window. For example, my 15 m/o falls asleep b/w 7 and 7:30. When I notice he is starting to get tired, but not actually overtired, I put him to bed. I use an exercise ball and bounce and nurse him to sleep while I read a book or surf the net. Anyway, I would try sticking to a certain window. I find for me that a loose schedule makes for a happier baby then no schedule.

For the night wakings, I remember I was up a lot with my first boy. I would look at the clock, and count the hours, and fully wake up whenever he woke up. I would worry about how much sleep I was getting. I really believe that how *I* was not sleeping soundly affected how often he woke. With my third, I just don't care and don't worry anymore, and he has always slept fairly well. Their are times when he's teething and he wakes up more often. But I suggest you throw away the clock, stop counting how often he wakes up, and go to sleep like you used to before you had a baby. i.e. don't worry about it. Once you are sleeping deeply and soundly next to your babe, I think he will too. I definately fall into a deeper sleep with my third then I did with my first, just because I was so worked up about it. I think you just have to not care first.

On the waking up before you come to bed, I don't have any suggestions. My youngest still does that too.

I don't "try" to get him to stay asleep for a 3 hour nap. He wakes up crying after 30-45 minutes wanting to go back to sleep. And, like I said, I sleep with him 50% of the time, and he still wakes up the same amount but just nurses right back to sleep and sleeps a total of 2-3 hours. He also takes a short (20-30 min) morning nap most days. He usually goes to bed around the same time every night (7:30-8). I usually try putting him to sleep at the first signs of tiredness, but I have even tried letting him stay up till he "crashes" a few times, neither of which produce any different results sleeping-wise.

I also don't look at the clock anymore, and I get the best sleep I can. I can't get into a 'deep' sleep when I'm being awoken every hour.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

ok just want to clarify his usual "schedule" that he has totally done HIMSELF, nothing that I have tried to impose on him (like I said in the original post)--

6 am- wake up
9-11 am- first nap (usually 20-30 min's)
1-2 pm- second nap (usually 2-3 hours)
7-9 pm- bedtime

trust me, there are MANY times during the day that he acts tired and I try to get him to nap but he won't. and everyday is def different, so this is just what 70% of our days look like, or a variation of those.

I FOLLOW ALL OF HIS CUES, if he seems tired, I do what I can to get him to sleep. It doesn't always work.

If he woke up from his second nap of 45 minutes and seemed happy and ready to be awake, then I'd be happy to get him up and play. BUT HE WAKES UP TIRED AND WANTS TO GO BACK TO SLEEP. That is why I want him to stay asleep for the full 2-3 hours, not because I jsut want him to take a 2-3 hour nap, but because it is what HE wants, but can't do it on his own and without a LOT of help.


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## Therese's Mommy (Jan 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
He has several allergies, dairy being the biggest, and I have been dairy free since he was 4 weeks old. I had him tested and I eliminated all of the allergens that he tested positive for for 3 weeks, and saw NO difference in his sleep. I still am dairy free, and I limit the other foods that he tested positive for.

I haven't read past this post so sorry if someone else brought this up. Any allergy testing is very inexact. I had the same issues with my dd. I eliminated everything she tested positive for and things actually got worse







: So, I figured my diet wasn't the issue. Almost a year later I tried it again and this time I eliminated a lot more and found out she was allergic to things that she had previously tested neg to. About 3 months ago she was waking most hours every night. She had never slept more than 3 hours at a time. Last night she woke once







: Most nights now she wakes 2 or 3 times at most. Her sleep is much more restful. She used to scoot and fret in her sleep, now she is so peaceful. She also will often settle herself after stirring. Before as soon as she moved a muscle she would wake up. She nurses less (not that nursing is a bad thing, it just indicates to me she needs less comfort), sleeps more, has a better appetite during the day (she is nearly 2 so eats lots of solids), she is so much happier, and she looks healthier.

I would suggest heading over to the allergy board. The women on there could give alot of insight on how to start an elimination diet. I would be willing to bet the farm that this is all caused by food issues. Good luck!

Beth

ETA: I just went back and skimmed some of the responses. I totally understand that it is hard to eliminate alot of things from your diet, but it can be done. I am currently pg and on a *very* restricted diet because of dd's allergies. Currently we avoid completely dairy, wheat, egg, soy, peanuts, tree nuts, almost all seeds, bananas, avocados, almost all nightshades, corn, and zucchini (I think that is it). I am currently waiting to try coconut and sunflower seeds. On top of this we are vegetarian and you can see my choices are terribly limited. I would consider eating meat, but because of her issues with dairy and eggs I would be very reluctant to try cow and chicken. On top of that I would worry about what the animal had eaten. So, right now remaining veg seems smart. I have to make everything I eat from scratch. It is time consuming and difficult and I am hungry sometimes, but it can be done.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mckennasmomma* 
Typing 1-handed as my 8.5 mo old sleeps in my lap!

here are some things i do that help:
-completely eliminated caffeine from my diet (chocolate too!)
-before bed give 1 tsp of chamomile tea and 1 Calms Forte
-dd naps 3 x a day...basically she is never awake for more than 2 hours except for her evevning stretch before bedtime.

THanks! I will try these!!!


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

At that age the whole 2..3..4 thing seems to work well.

First nap 2 hours after waking
Second nap 3 hours after waking from 1st nap
Bedtime 4 hours after waking from second nap.

At some point our day kind of looked like that and once I paid attention and built the day around those hours our DAY got much better. Our nights didn't get better until DS was 12 mos and I stopped nursing him immediately when he woke. (made him wait a bit).

Our day naps got better when I lay next to him and slowly moved away. So first day I slept with him. 2nd day I read a book 6 inches away, etc.

I will say that with my second child I've done none of this. If she woke after 5 minutes I just picked her up and put in in the swing/wrap/playmat (whatever she wanted). And like magic at 6 mos she started sleeping much better. I guess it just depends on the baby.

Try to catch up on sleep ASAP. Go to bed super early. Sleep all day Saturday if you can. All this can help you get to a point where you can think more critically.

It does get better no matter what you do


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

have you tried elevating the bed for reflux?


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

I would give the elimination diet a try again if you can bear it. You mentioned, I think, that last time you did it for 3 weeks with no change? My GP/Naturopath gave me an elimination diet last year and told me that it takes 3 weeks for your system to be fully rid of the things your eliminating. So if you only did it for 3 weeks that may explain why you didn't see any changes.

I really feel for you. I hated doing it, I know it's not easy. And I wasn't a sleep deprived mother!


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Treasuremapper* 
have you tried elevating the bed for reflux?

No, but he was on Prevacid for 3 months, also with no change in sleep before, during, or after the Prevacid. We tried Zantac first but that didn't help the reflux.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katelove* 
I would give the elimination diet a try again if you can bear it. You mentioned, I think, that last time you did it for 3 weeks with no change? My GP/Naturopath gave me an elimination diet last year and told me that it takes 3 weeks for your system to be fully rid of the things your eliminating. So if you only did it for 3 weeks that may explain why you didn't see any changes.

I really feel for you. I hated doing it, I know it's not easy. And I wasn't a sleep deprived mother!

I think I am going to have to do an ED. Uggghhhhh. His big reactors were dairy and wheat (among other fruits/veg's). Which are of course, in everything.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Therese's Mommy* 
I haven't read past this post so sorry if someone else brought this up. Any allergy testing is very inexact. I had the same issues with my dd. I eliminated everything she tested positive for and things actually got worse







: So, I figured my diet wasn't the issue. Almost a year later I tried it again and this time I eliminated a lot more and found out she was allergic to things that she had previously tested neg to. About 3 months ago she was waking most hours every night. She had never slept more than 3 hours at a time. Last night she woke once







: Most nights now she wakes 2 or 3 times at most. Her sleep is much more restful. She used to scoot and fret in her sleep, now she is so peaceful. She also will often settle herself after stirring. Before as soon as she moved a muscle she would wake up. She nurses less (not that nursing is a bad thing, it just indicates to me she needs less comfort), sleeps more, has a better appetite during the day (she is nearly 2 so eats lots of solids), she is so much happier, and she looks healthier.

I would suggest heading over to the allergy board. The women on there could give alot of insight on how to start an elimination diet. I would be willing to bet the farm that this is all caused by food issues. Good luck!

Beth

ETA: I just went back and skimmed some of the responses. I totally understand that it is hard to eliminate alot of things from your diet, but it can be done. I am currently pg and on a *very* restricted diet because of dd's allergies. Currently we avoid completely dairy, wheat, egg, soy, peanuts, tree nuts, almost all seeds, bananas, avocados, almost all nightshades, corn, and zucchini (I think that is it). I am currently waiting to try coconut and sunflower seeds. On top of this we are vegetarian and you can see my choices are terribly limited. I would consider eating meat, but because of her issues with dairy and eggs I would be very reluctant to try cow and chicken. On top of that I would worry about what the animal had eaten. So, right now remaining veg seems smart. I have to make everything I eat from scratch. It is time consuming and difficult and I am hungry sometimes, but it can be done.

Wow, mama, that sounds really rough. I only eliminated dairy, wheat, tomatoes, strawberries, peas, tea, chocolate, and grapes. Just with dairy and wheat, it was so so so hard. I just don't have the time/energy to make all the food I need to, but it is looking like I am going to have to find it..


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## sharr610 (May 14, 2008)

Ok, I haven't read all the posts, but just had to say that when I first read this, I thought you were talking about an 8.5 YEAR old. Tells you how much sleep I'm getting these days.
I'm so sorry to hear you are going through this. Sleep issues just plain suck.

8.5 years old...jeez...can you imagine?!


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## kgreenemama (Dec 31, 2008)

My 13-month old son is really similar to yours. He was very high needs; still is, but better in some aspects, and like you, I let him direct his own schedule. Funny thing is that it's nearly identical to your son's, (except our afternoon nap has NEVER been more than 2 hours. 1.5 on a good day. My DS also still wakes about four times a night, often crying.)

I see in your message that you're using your instincts, letting your son find his way naturally. The times when I want to kick the cat for meowing too loud and waking DS or when he just won't sleep and I feel like dropping DS in the crib and saying, "Forget it. You're on your own, kid" are the times when I've lost touch with my instincts. Frustration, my grad class, my dirty house, my need to get my nipple out of his mouth and start getting ready for work interfere with being able to listen to what this child needs.

I know this is probably not helpful in a tangible way, but you sound like such a loving mom. Your son was put into your life because he needs someone who listens to her heart like you do. You're doing everything perfectly, even though it's hard. The vaca will work itself out, too. Think of it as a break from having to cook and clean!

I wish you the best. You've gotten some really good advice from the other moms here too!


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

I too have a very light sleeper. From about 5 months until almost a year old I let her nap in her swing with a fan going for white noise. Sometimes it was hard to transfer her from nursing/rocking to her swing, but I just kept at it until she made it. She slept great in her swing. Then at about 13 months we flew half way around the globe to visit family and I was amazed that she napped in odd places and slept fine with us in even though it was hot. Also, during those three weeks she cut 3 molars, got a fever, and a cough, oh and diahrea and vomiting too. Still all in all she wasn't too cranky.
Anyway, I did consider using her crib and i even tried to put her in the crib for naps. I could never do the transfer. One time it worked and she was up ten min. later. I think the matress was too firm for her liking. Of course she was used to being with me on our cozy matress.

I guess if you want you could try letting him take naps in a crib and see how it goes. For that matter you could try putting him in the crib at night since you think your waking him up, that is, if you can do the transfer thing. I finally decided that I didn't want to jump up and have to go all the way to another room to care for her. That made me tired just thinking about it. So, here we are. My dd is exactly like yours only older, eighteen months. She nurses like a newborn inspite of the fact that she eats solids like a champ.
I still rock nurse and read to her until she goes to sleep. It could take ten minutes or 1.5 hours. Most of the time I just accept it for what it is and I let all the housework go. As long as I can read or surf the net I don't get too frustrated. Although sometimes I get tired of trying and we get up. I am sorry if my post isn't very encouraging...I am going through it too. So, I think you are wanting someone to point you in some direction for a change.

So, you could try laying him down. Some moms don't mind letting their babe fuss a bit as long as they are right there patting and shushing. Maybe he needs that little fuss to get to sleep. I thought about trying this too, but in the end I couldn't do it...I just picked her back up. I think in the book, The No Cry Sleep Solution she talks about this method. It all depends on your tolerance for your babes cries. I can't handle any crying so I always picked her up. Disclaimer: I am not advocating CIO. One night dd was crying and sitting next to me the whole time. I was there for her but I was laying down to sleep. If she wanted to sit there and cry it was her choice. Eventually she did lay down with me and sleep.

Besides his dispostition, there could be many factors like teething, tummy troubles, dreams, sleep cycles, growth spurts, learning new skills. I guess I just figure it is all within the realm of normal and have accepted that my dd is a crappy sleeper. At least she is in my bed and I don't have to go to another room to console her. Sorry so long...I really hope you can find something that works or maybe just find the peace to accept what it is.


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## AlicesMama (Nov 23, 2008)

I think sleep cues are a bit of a red herring. DD regularly rubs her eyes on and off throughout the day but no amount of parenting will ever get her to sleep unless she is ready to crash.

She is now 12.5 months and only needs 12 hours of sleep in a 24 hour period. She sleeps 10.5 overnight and has a 1.5 hour nap during the day. Not 'enough' sleep as far as the 'books' are concerned but more than enough for her. She's a live wire and has never found it easy to switch off. She needs to be exhausted to fall asleep and these days physically tired too, from a good bit of crawling around, going up stairs, out in the buggy twice a day going here and there. All that stimulation and she's just ready to crash.

A night=time bath also helped. It seemed to be very clear marker that the day is over. She would also cry a little as she didn't like the transition from dry to wet to cold to warm and dry again but it was always like she was just letting off steam.

This is our experience so please don't flame me, but food allergies were again a total red herring. I tried an elimination diet and it did nothing. DD woke every hour of the night-time sleep. It has nothing to do with allergies many times in my opinion it's simply that babies are programmed to sleep this way if left to their own choice.

I know because we night-weaned DD at 11 months 1 week and she now STTN and only wakes up once or twice and I pat her back to sleep. She doesn't even ask to feed. She has a special cough she does when she wants the boob and it doesn't occur to her to ask. But it comes at 5am when she is genuniely hungry. For us, it was nothing to do with food allergies, she just didn't know how to fall asleep without the nipple. I am on a full dairy, wheat, chocolate diet. I eat everything! I don't drink tea or coffee but I haven't for years. She drinks cow's milk herself now twice a week and has no problem.

We are still co-sleeping and we feed to sleep at night and at 5am to 7am in the morning. Our lives have improved around 1000%. Medically, we are all crawling out from where we were for close to a year and slowly slowly recovering.

Another thing - you say you have a loose routine. Something I have noticed with DD is that the sleep time can vary by around 20 minutes but we have to be upstairs doing the things we do for bedtime by 6:45pm or things get really scrappy. It's like she gets stressed if she can't see that we are heading for bed by then. So I would say you may think half and hour here or there is OK, but I think babies do far better with more of a routine - well the high-needs ones anyway - you can either let them lead completely - if you have the energy, or you need to lead completely - otherwise it becomes a battle of wills and I don't think that does anyone any good.

At 11 months 1 week I felt we had to night-wean. I had planned to go on longer but my health was in jeapordy and DD's reflux was just dreadful.

I wish I could provide more of an answer to you but for us the answer has been night-weaning, she couldn't sleep without the breast - oh and also a separate sleep surface. We have 2 twins, I separated them by about an inch. This way I still flip over to comfort DD back to sleep if she wakes and then once asleep I move back to my twin. This stops the bed that she's on moving so I think she is woken up less.

DD still loves breastfeeding. But I think she is relieved to not need it to fall asleep anymore. When she wakes at night she very much just wants to go back to sleep. She sleeps much much more deeply than before. It's weird but she really does. We have the mattress on the floor but occasionally she falls out, it's only about 8 inches so no big deal, I've fallen from 5 feet! You'd imagine that it would be a big shock, yes she screams but within 3 minutes she's asleep again once she's in my arms. This would NEVER EVER have happened before the night-weaning.

If you can, I would soldier on and night-wean at 12 months if that's something you can stomach. Dr Jay Gordon does say it's OK to do it then, though I know many would think it's too young on here. The tone of your email looks like you are ready to blow a gasket. That's no good for your baby. He needs a Mum who can function, who has some of her needs met. He also says it's OK to night-wean earlier if the Mum's health is in trouble.

Only you know where you are right now and how much more you can take. We want our children to live the lives of a King and a Queen, yet we are only human. Don't beat yourself up too much.

Try a different room, a different sleep surface etc. I really hope it gets better for you. You could also try Omeprazole/Zegerid instead of Prevacid. Some kids respond much better to Omeprazole, but I can't see why Prevacid wouldn't have worked at least a bit - and if it didn't then I guess that's it. Do try an ED for 2 or 3 weeks and see if this helps. It's certainly worth a try and you want to be absolutely sure it's not this before embarking on anything else.

Fingers crossed for you and really hope it all works out.

One other question - can DH ever get DS to sleep? Have you ever tried? What happens?


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:

AlicesMama I think sleep cues are a bit of a red herring. DD regularly rubs her eyes on and off throughout the day but no amount of parenting will ever get her to sleep unless she is ready to crash.
ITA with this. He rubs his eyes/fusses a lot throughout the day. I attribute it to being chronically overtired maybe.. but yeah, when he does this I try to get him to sleep, and it usually doesn't work..









Quote:

This is our experience so please don't flame me, but food allergies were again a total red herring. I tried an elimination diet and it did nothing. DD woke every hour of the night-time sleep. It has nothing to do with allergies many times in my opinion it's simply that babies are programmed to sleep this way if left to their own choice.
Partially agree with this. I think he is DEF programmed to wake a lot, but I know that allergies also can make a babe uncomfortable and wake more. He has plenty of allergy signs too... I actually just noticed a spot of eczema on his bum yesterday! And he broke out in hives a couple days ago from eating some hummus that I had dipped wheat crackers into.. I guess some crumbs were in the hummus bc he had hives all over his face.

Quote:

You could also try Omeprazole/Zegerid instead of Prevacid. Some kids respond much better to Omeprazole, but I can't see why Prevacid wouldn't have worked at least a bit - and if it didn't then I guess that's it.
The Prevacid def worked for the reflux, before Prevacid he would pop off and scream 10+ times during each feeding and I would have to calm him back down and try again... It was awful. 2 weeks on Prevacid and no more screaming! We weaned him off of it a couple months ago and the screaming has not come back. It just didn't help with the sleeping at all.

Quote:

can DH ever get DS to sleep? Have you ever tried? What happens?
Sometimes. On especially difficult nights, we pass him back and forth a few times. Though he usually screams a LOT more before calming down with DH.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:

So, you could try laying him down. Some moms don't mind letting their babe fuss a bit as long as they are right there patting and shushing. Maybe he needs that little fuss to get to sleep. I thought about trying this too, but in the end I couldn't do it...I just picked her back up. I think in the book, The No Cry Sleep Solution she talks about this method. It all depends on your tolerance for your babes cries. I can't handle any crying so I always picked her up.
This is what I have been contemplating doing.... I have tried it a couple times and couldn't take the crying after 2-3 minutes though.


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## Evelynmia'smom (Mar 8, 2009)

you poor mama.....I really know how you feel. My lo is the same age and I am there with you with the sleep issues. My lo doesn't have food allergies..that I know of....and my gut really tells me that the waking is more of a habit/need for the boob than discomfort. I did use the NCSS technique of patting, shh shh her until she fell asleep on her own in her crib and that is what got us that wonderful week and a half of great sleep..and I really think that it was because she learned HOW to fall asleep on her own. Now, it's a different story because she knows how to pull up and that's ALL she wants to do. I have also contemplated CIO, but don't think I could do it...not only because it's too sad and mean, but because it seems like you would have to keep doing it.
So, my therapist, who is a psyd, practices ap with her child and is against cio...was explaining to me that learning to sleep is a skill and that learning to master new skills is how children gain self-esteem...anyhow, she was trying to ease my fears of letting her cry at all...she doesn't seem to think that it is harmful to her brain development or emotional development if I am there trying to help her learn how to go to sleep on her own. I will prob get flamed for this, but I have really started to wonder how much good i am doing for my dd if i never let her try to fall asleep on her own....and she's getting to the age where it feels a little ridiculous that i can't ever go out in the evening because i am the ONLY person who can get her to sleep...kwim...i can certainly relate to your sentiments about everything revolves around your ds....it's the same way here. hth hang in there


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evelynmia'smom* 
you poor mama.....I really know how you feel. My lo is the same age and I am there with you with the sleep issues. My lo doesn't have food allergies..that I know of....and my gut really tells me that the waking is more of a habit/need for the boob than discomfort. I did use the NCSS technique of patting, shh shh her until she fell asleep on her own in her crib and that is what got us that wonderful week and a half of great sleep..and I really think that it was because she learned HOW to fall asleep on her own. Now, it's a different story because she knows how to pull up and that's ALL she wants to do. I have also contemplated CIO, but don't think I could do it...not only because it's too sad and mean, but because it seems like you would have to keep doing it.
So, my therapist, who is a psyd, practices ap with her child and is against cio...was explaining to me that learning to sleep is a skill and that learning to master new skills is how children gain self-esteem...anyhow, she was trying to ease my fears of letting her cry at all...she doesn't seem to think that it is harmful to her brain development or emotional development if I am there trying to help her learn how to go to sleep on her own. I will prob get flamed for this, but I have really started to wonder how much good i am doing for my dd if i never let her try to fall asleep on her own....and she's getting to the age where it feels a little ridiculous that i can't ever go out in the evening because i am the ONLY person who can get her to sleep...kwim...i can certainly relate to your sentiments about everything revolves around your ds....it's the same way here. hth hang in there











Thanks for posting this. It def makes me feel better to know I'm not the only one who feels this way. I feel so guilty that I am resenting everything revolving around him, etc.... Othat than on MDC, most of the other mamas I know do some form of sleep training, and have happy kids who SLEEP, and they don't fight sleeping, and they are all well-rested. I love being Liam's mom. I am flattered that he wants me and only me most of the time. But it would sure be nice if sleep wasn't such a struggle around here, and if my whole existence wasn't dedicated to making sure he gets to sleep and stays asleep when he needs to.


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## Evelynmia'smom (Mar 8, 2009)

I often think about all of the other babies I know whose parents sleep trained and they go down to sleep without a fight and sleep all night and are happy and well rested and don't seem to be damaged in any way....I don't know...I'm tired of feeling so angry and exhausted too AND waking up with hikies all over my breast! I feel like a human sacrifice...I mean I knew it was going to be hard to be a mother but come on!


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Have you tried the pantley pull off from NCSS to get him to stop relying on nursing to sleep? It actually didn't help DS sleep in longer stretches I have to say (but nightweaning was miraculous).


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evelynmia'smom* 
I often think about all of the other babies I know whose parents sleep trained and they go down to sleep without a fight and sleep all night and are happy and well rested and don't seem to be damaged in any way....I don't know...I'm tired of feeling so angry and exhausted too AND waking up with hikies all over my breast! I feel like a human sacrifice...I mean I knew it was going to be hard to be a mother but come on!









I could have posted those exact words. I knew being a mom was hard, but yeah.. geez.. like, really?


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
Have you tried the pantley pull off from NCSS to get him to stop relying on nursing to sleep? It actually didn't help DS sleep in longer stretches I have to say (but nightweaning was miraculous).

Sort of. I pull it out when he's asleep and that usually wakes him.. so, re-insert, try again.. etc. etc.

I don't mind nursing to sleep one bit. It is the rocking/jiggling/shusshing/holding him down while he fights me that I don't like..


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Have you tried to just let him be? Let him fall asleep alone? or does he freak out? DS went through a phase where he'd just cry no matter what I did. Sometimes walking away for a few minutes let him get it out and then I could put him to sleep with no issue.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
Have you tried to just let him be? Let him fall asleep alone? or does he freak out? DS went through a phase where he'd just cry no matter what I did. Sometimes walking away for a few minutes let him get it out and then I could put him to sleep with no issue.

I have never tried leaving him alone. He freaks out if DH is trying to get him to sleep, or if I just try laying beside him to get him to sleep. I can only imagine his 'freak out' if I left him alone....


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## MsZelda (Jan 17, 2009)

I, too, could have written most of your post myself. I don't have any solutions, but I do have a few coping mechanisms that have helped me to feel okay about the situation.
1- reminding myself that some of the biggest changes that my LO has gone through happen all on their own, without any strategy or worry on my part whatsoever
2- everything seems easier after a break (try to get a good nap every day or so even if it means recruiting friends, neighbours, etc. or going to sleep as soon as your partner goes home and getting a couple of hours before your LO's bedtime)
3- your DS is not willfully not sleeping - he just has trouble with it - it is not personal - it is not because you are a bad mom - it may just be the luck of the draw - his temperament - I have seen this with so many siblings where one baby slept and the next doesn't and they have had the same parenting - if you can accept some things as beyond your control and not something you have to fix, it might be easier to surrender to the process

In general, I would let up a bit on your efforts to get the naps down. It's great to provide opportunities for him to sleep, but if he consistently resists, I would just get on with your day. You might find that the right carrier or backpack makes it possible to strap him on when he's in his worst moods and even get a few zzz's out of him. Try to kick the whole issue of "sleep" out of the center of your consciousness - I find when I become obsessed with sleep (my dd's and my own), things just get worse. The way I relax a bit is to stop thinking of it as a problem I have to fix, and start focusing on how to get through the day the best I can (lots of time with other moms, tons of loooooong walks, sitting on the grass, going to group events like library storytimes, lying on the floor with DD in a half-stupor, letting myself watch renovation TV when I'm brain dead, playing relaxing music, drinking tea, etc. etc.)

I really do feel for you. Know you are not alone. Know that this will pass and will seem like a short blip in the big scheme of things. Try to connect with other moms as much as you can.

hugs
k


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## mckennasmomma (Sep 29, 2008)

I really agree with Kelleymama...trying to remove "sleep" from the foremost thing on your mind can really help. Plus, I believe that babies pick up on and reflect our energy, and our moods are intimately related. The more relaxed you can be, the more your babe may relax.

But on that note, to me liam's sleeplessness sounds more like just a difficulty relaxing rather than food issues. Have you tried chiropractic or cranial/sacral work? He may need an adjustment or some energy work.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

I know people mean well when they say it, but it really gets under my skin when people say that if mama would just relax then baby would relax too. It's the same troubling advice I've seen given to women having trouble conceiving..."oh, if you would just quit worrying and relax, you'd get pregnant."

Anyway, I agree that babies pick up on people's moods and can get stressed when caregivers are stressed, but that doesn't mean he reverse is true...relaxed caregiver=relaxed baby. If only it were that simple. I just hate to see it framed in a way that essentially places blame on mothers for the temperament of their children and gives them the responsibility to fix it rather than to accept it and figure out a way to work with it.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I know people mean well when they say it, but it really gets under my skin when people say that if mama would just relax then baby would relax too. It's the same troubling advice I've seen given to women having trouble conceiving..."oh, if you would just quit worrying and relax, you'd get pregnant."

Anyway, I agree that babies pick up on people's moods and can get stressed when caregivers are stressed, but that doesn't mean he reverse is true...relaxed caregiver=relaxed baby. If only it were that simple. I just hate to see it framed in a way that essentially places blame on mothers for the temperament of their children and gives them the responsibility to fix it rather than to accept it and figure out a way to work with it.

Thank you. I understand people mean well when they say to just "relax" and "let up on the sleeping" and "Not to worry about the sleeping"... ok, so what am I supposed to do with a sleepy, fussy, crying baby who desperately needs a nap?! And please, someone tell me how I am supposed to just "relax" and "stop worrying" about his sleeping?? Alcohol? Drugs?

As an AP parent, I want to meet Liam's needs, and if he NEEDS to sleep, I need to help him get there. I can't just ignore his cries and "go on with my day."

I am trying to fix the 'problem' not ignore it. And yes, it is a problem when a baby needs to sleep and fights it like it will kill him.


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## hookahgirl (May 22, 2005)

My DS is like that(about two weeks older than yours) and nothing got better till he started to sleep in his own crib. In his own room. It was just too much for him to sleep by the boob all night, for me!! He was waking every hour, and now goes to bed at 7:30 and get up twice at night, then is up for the day at 7:00am.
His naps are short too, 45 minutes is a long one! I TOTALLY understand about wanting them to sleep because they are so freakin miserable!!!!!! God by 5:30 pm I want to tear my hair out.........


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## mckennasmomma (Sep 29, 2008)

I totally apologize if it sounded like I was trying to oversimplify the solution. I'm definitely not. I can relate all too well to the situation, and know that it takes a multi-prong solution. I also know that the less I focus all my attention on it the better it is.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mckennasmomma* 
I totally apologize if it sounded like I was trying to oversimplify the solution. I'm definitely not. I can relate all too well to the situation, and know that it takes a multi-prong solution. I also know that the less I focus all my attention on it the better it is.

I didn't mean to sound so cranky in my earlier post







. I actually agree with taking the focus off of sleep, it was just the relaxing issue that got to me. But I'm a bit hypersensitive about things like that because of issues with my mom. She is really big about blaming mothers for whatever is going on with their kids...baby is intense and fights sleep=high strung mama making him that way...kid won't eat=mama making too big of an issue about food. Basically everything is always mama's fault and conversely when things are going well, it is all mama's doing too. No pressure though.


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## MsZelda (Jan 17, 2009)

hmmm

just to clarify ... my suggestions were for how to make coping for you easier, not that they would fix the problem or improve Liam's sleeping. I think it's great to try as many strategies as you can to help (I sure have with my LO), but in my experience, some babies are never going to sleep really well. I intentionally wrote that it is NOT your fault, not because of being stressed or over-concerned with sleep. I only suggest trying to shift your focus from getting him to sleep more to making your life better because that is something more within your control than the circadian rhythms of a small child.

Like I said, for me, it's not alcohol or drugs that makes it tolerable, it's having friends to talk to, spending lots of time with others and their babies, getting out of the house for long walks, especially in the woods, and stealing stretches of sleep whenever I can get them (without my LO). It is important that your ds is not cranky and miserable, but it's just as important that you're not.

I really hope you have some support where you are and that you'll keep us posted here. I'd love to hear about your progress.

K


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Sorry for the little bit of the rant earlier... I really am so stressed over this, and I am just so tired of people telling me to just relax and not worry about it. Because I can't do that, or he won't sleep. Literally..

Kelleymama- those are great suggestions. It is so hard to find the energy to get out, but I do try. I don't have a whole lot of support or other Mama friends, so that makes it even more difficult.









Quote:

It is important that your ds is not cranky and miserable, but it's just as important that you're not.
The only 'problem' with that is, if he is cranky so am I. I can't stand it when he is cranky. I can't just ignore it.. especially now that when he is tired/fussy he crawls to me saying "mamamama"...









I have been trying to just let it be, and have peace about it. But I can't anymore. I _need_ things to change.

So far, what I am thinking, is I will try an elimination diet, and if that doesn't help, after a month I will try to get him to sleep in his own bed/crib.... Maybe put a matress on the floor in our room. He seems to want to spread out, and isn't able to get comfortable in our bed with both of us in it..


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Have you tried letting go of extending the naps and putting him down for bed earlier? That is what has been working pretty well for us. My son takes 2 to 3 short naps and sleeps 12 to 13 hours a night.

Also, I am afraid to type this out for fear the sleep gods will punish me for getting too cocky, but my son has only woken up 2 times a night for the past two night. I sure hope I didn't just jinx myself.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
Have you tried letting go of extending the naps and putting him down for bed earlier? That is what has been working pretty well for us. My son takes 2 to 3 short naps and sleeps 12 to 13 hours a night.

Also, I am afraid to type this out for fear the sleep gods will punish me for getting too cocky, but my son has only woken up 2 times in the past two night. I sure hope I didn't just jinx myself.

I have, and he is usually cranky until he gets back down for a nap... ugghhh... I guess I just need to grin and bear it a little longer...


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## SeekingJoy (Apr 30, 2007)

I posted on one of your threads a few months ago, but I wanted to put this suggestion out again. Have you tried reading Sleepless in America?

Also, DS sounds just like your son. A CRAPPY sleeper. Fought sleep like no one's business. All the AP/conventional sleep advice just didn't and doesn't work for him. He is now 3.5 and we are coming out of the other side, but sleep (his lack of it leading to aggressive, disruptive behavior) is still a huge issue in our family. It gets better, but slowly.

This sounds crazy and I will probably get flamed, but here it is.

For us, we had to break the cycle of sleeplessness and being overtired.

*DS needs/ed a strict routine. I still nursed on demand, but sleep wasn't on demand. Because he could go from "happy, happy, happy" to screaming his head off in 30 seconds. Literally. As he got older, his clues get clearer, but even DH misses them half the time.

* More frequent, but shorter naps were what worked. In the beginning, it felt like I spent most of our day getting him to sleep, and I did, but it got better. He had a newborn's 2-hour cycle until almost a year. He took two naps a day until almost 2. He *just* dropped his afternoon nap. He has always required more nighttime parenting and had a delay in meeting sleep "milestones." It sounds like you understand his need for more sleep parenting, but are at a loss for additional strategies to try. Hope some of this helps.

* I stopped doing anything that would stretch our routine. I would leave the grocery store with only half our list picked up. I would cut lunch short. I would bail on friends. No matter what, at 9 am we were getting ready for nap. We also refused to travel. Our vacay with DS at 7 months was a nightmare, and we didn't travel again for a year.

* I moved DS to his own crib own room. We co-sleep periodically, but between 6 months - 24 or so, DS at least started each night and napped alone in his crib. I disturbed him. It turned out that even more than me, DH's tossing and turning disturbs him.

* I started putting him to sleep on his stomach with his crib (and therefore mattress) raised at one end slightly.

* We picked a bed time routine and stuck with it. That has changed over the past few years of course, but DS needed to know each step and what was coming next so he could relax. Teeth, story, song, bounce to sleep upright on a birth ball (nursing to sleep aggravated the reflux). This sounds really regimented and like I am a control freak, but I promise this isn't how I pictured parenting. It isn't how I parent DD. DS needs it.

* When he got older (26 months or so) we periodically gave him meletonin. Its OTC and a supplement. We gave him a VERY small dose. But honestly, that was what saved my marriage and sanity. A night or two of it and a really early bedtime helped DS "reset" his internal sleep clock. Turns out he is extremely sensitive to cortisol, whether from emotional stress or lack of sleep.

You might want to keep him on the reflux meds even if they don't immediately work. DS was on them until 9 months, but periodically would have to get back on them later.

Hope even one part of this helps. PM if I you have questions or want additional support. It will get better even if you do nothing, but there are things you can try now to help somewhat.


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## Jasminelove (Apr 20, 2009)

I really didn't read all the posts..my attention span isn't that great these days as I'm exausted...teething baby...enough said. Fennel tea has been a life saver for us. i try to drink it as much as i can during the day. I notice if I don't drink it that day, he doesn't sleep well. If he seems particularily upset, I drink chamomile tea with it (along w/ some others here and there). It really has helped us ALOT..I can't even tell u. We have gone through a ton of tummy troubles/gas/huge bloating from the start...pretty much hell...I didn't know how we were gonna make it through. anyway...maybe the tea will help u. I drink it, not him, though I think some pp give it straight to their babies..I would rather him get it through me though. good luck to u.


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## Jasminelove (Apr 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kelleymama* 
I, too, could have written most of your post myself. I don't have any solutions, but I do have a few coping mechanisms that have helped me to feel okay about the situation.
1- reminding myself that some of the biggest changes that my LO has gone through happen all on their own, without any strategy or worry on my part whatsoever
2- everything seems easier after a break (try to get a good nap every day or so even if it means recruiting friends, neighbours, etc. or going to sleep as soon as your partner goes home and getting a couple of hours before your LO's bedtime)
3- your DS is not willfully not sleeping - he just has trouble with it - it is not personal - it is not because you are a bad mom - it may just be the luck of the draw - his temperament - I have seen this with so many siblings where one baby slept and the next doesn't and they have had the same parenting - if you can accept some things as beyond your control and not something you have to fix, it might be easier to surrender to the process

In general, I would let up a bit on your efforts to get the naps down. It's great to provide opportunities for him to sleep, but if he consistently resists, I would just get on with your day. You might find that the right carrier or backpack makes it possible to strap him on when he's in his worst moods and even get a few zzz's out of him. Try to kick the whole issue of "sleep" out of the center of your consciousness - I find when I become obsessed with sleep (my dd's and my own), things just get worse. The way I relax a bit is to stop thinking of it as a problem I have to fix, and start focusing on how to get through the day the best I can (lots of time with other moms, tons of loooooong walks, sitting on the grass, going to group events like library storytimes, lying on the floor with DD in a half-stupor, letting myself watch renovation TV when I'm brain dead, playing relaxing music, drinking tea, etc. etc.)

I really do feel for you. Know you are not alone. Know that this will pass and will seem like a short blip in the big scheme of things. Try to connect with other moms as much as you can.

hugs
k

I LOVE u'r response. I second it. Same for me with the naps. Lately i'v been putting him in his stroller for walks..sometimes I walk and walk until I can't take it anymore but I'm thrilled that he's sleeping so don't stop! lol. He didn't used to sleep in the stroller but now does...so maybe it might be an option for u guys later. SOmetimes my little man sleeps for 30 minutes and sometimes 2 hours...sometimes totally skips a nap all together...not fun but we make it through. I think it sounds like u'r doing a great job. just do the best u can and call it good. if u have to sneak away and he wakes up..just try again or don't. u'r not wrong for needing a break too. it's just hard to find one as a mommy. but it's all worth it isn't it?! this too shall pass. hugs.


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## VeganCupcake (Jun 13, 2007)

Hi mama, my baby is an awful sleeper, too. Just a couple of weeks ago, I tried something that has helped us a lot.

I used to nurse DD completely to sleep for naps, bedtime, and when she woke in the night. A lot of why I did this was because I couldn't tolerate listening to her awake in the night, even if she wasn't fussing, because I couldn't sleep.

So a week and a half ago, for a morning nap, I lay down next to her on a little pallet I had made on the bedroom floor of "her" room (ha ha, she had spent virtually no time in it), nursed her until she was drowsy, then stopped nursing and played dead. She wiggled and talked and chewed on her stuffed lamb, and grabbed my blankets, and it took an hour, but she went to sleep on her own. She didn't cry, either.

It has basically been the same drill ever since then, but sometimes she goes to sleep a lot faster (10 minutes of talking, chewing, kicking, wiggling). And she stays asleep longer at night and wakes up less. We eventually bring her into our bed at some point in the night, but we have regained our time as a couple in the evening. Whew.

If she cries (and she doesn't very often), I pick her up, rock her, nurse her, or whatever, then put her back down and lie down next to her.

It was/is very difficult to be patient while my exhausted baby chatters and wiggles (but doesn't cry--I don't let her cry), but I have a couple of affirmations that I repeat to myself that help:

I am patient. I am calm. I am relaxed.
I will allow her to do this in her own way.
I don't really know why this works, or if it will work for other your DS. But it has helped. It's not perfect, but it is a lot better than what it was.


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

First off, you are a great mama, to hang in there and tend to his needs. I know it is SO hard, my first dd was like that. It was awful. I never wanted to have another kid after her! She cat-napped for 20 minutes at a time for the first 18 months of her life. And it took me at least 30 minutes to get her asleep in the first place! Oh and the nights!!! Horrid. I really don't know how I survived it, because I was very unhealthy and depressed. I was afraid to have dh help me at night because I felt that *I* had to be there for her.

Now that I've had a second dd, who started out much like dd1, I've learned a few things...maybe they can help. Give up trying to get him to sleep at any given time or for any specified length. I know. It's hard. But the frustration YOU feel at him fighting you is something HE can feel and he is associating that yucky feeling with getting to sleep. With dd2, I try to put her to sleep for no longer than 10 minutes. If she is still not asleep, I will take her back out to the living room and get online, read, crochet, anything boring to her. And I pretty much ignore her. Let her walk around, play by herself, whatever. Today, for example, she was not wanting me to put her down for a nap, yet she was clearly tired. So tired, that she fell asleep STANDING UP with her head in my lap (I was online). She just can't admit she is tired.









As for the night time...this may not be something you want to do, but I had dh step in a help me out for a stretch of time. It did not affect nursing at all, but it did give me some much needed sleep. Some here will strongly disagree with me, but I know (from experience with dd1) what my limits on sleep deprivation are. When I started to feel nutty, I told dh I needed a 4 hour stretch every night. DD was about 10.5 months at that point, but I would have tried it earlier if I wasn't coping well. So he started getting dd for that time, and I would go into the guest bedroom, so that she wouldn't be confused. Did she cry? Yeah, a little. But she was in the loving arms of her daddy, and he was patient with her (more than I could be at that point) and in a few days, she accepted him just fine. We gradually stretched out the time I was in the guest bedroom, and at 13 months, she was night weaned for about 8 hours. Now, at 15 months, she will sleep all. night. long. without waking for about 10-11 hours. And I feel amazing. I am patient, healthy, fun, and much much happier. Maybe even just a few hours of sleep would work wonders for you? I hope this helps some, I know how terrible and isolating it can be.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

vegancupcake, and mommy2abigail- thank you both for your honesty and for your experiences!

vegancupcake- i have actually tried that, and he cries/fusses..







I even let him cry for a few minutes until I couldn't take it anymore

mommy2abigail- we are actually planning to do something similar... this week DH is going to go to him until 11 PM, next week 12 AM, and we will see how it goes from there.... I like you were, am past my breaking point. I'm unhealthy and depressed and I need a few hours of sleep. We also decided he is going to sleep in his crib until 3 AM tonight. We will see how this goes. If, of course there is too much crying, we will bring him in with us. But I think he may find that he likes his crib better, because he usually wakes at every little thing in our bed and can't seem to get comfy....


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

I am big on early bedtimes being the cure for many sleep problems. 7-9 sounds late. I would start putting him down to sleep at 6:30 sharp (start your routine at 6) and see if that helps.


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## hookahgirl (May 22, 2005)

Yeah when you reach your breaking point it is more than okay to step out for a moment to get yourself together. That happened tonight.....it took two hours to get DS to sleep, NOTHING was working and he was misrable...DH was frustrated, I was almost in tears so I took him up, set him in his crib told him I loved him and would be back in five minutes but I needed a time out. DH was upset that we couldnt help him sleep, but in that moment we both needed to just breathe. Sleep deprivation is used as torture for crying out loud, there is a reason we need to sleep, and that is to form complete thoughts and to act in a reasonable manner.
Of course we didnt let DS CIO all night, after 2 minutes in his crib he was asleep LOL, but please,please dont feel bad if you need to step away from your son for a minute, or two, or ten, if that is what it takes to stay sane.
Im really glad your DH is going to step in, that really helps so much. 4 hours makes a HUGE difference and will really, really help! It may also help your DS and DH bond some more while you get some much needed rest!


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## MLA (May 22, 2008)

I'm right there with you. My DS is almost 8 months old and last night I completely lost it. I scared myself, actually. The sleep deprivation is killing me.

I'm reading along with great interest and am thinking about using some of the suggestions here.


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## SeekingJoy (Apr 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
vegancupcake, and mommy2abigail- thank you both for your honesty and for your experiences!

vegancupcake- i have actually tried that, and he cries/fusses..







I even let him cry for a few minutes until I couldn't take it anymore

mommy2abigail- we are actually planning to do something similar... this week DH is going to go to him until 11 PM, next week 12 AM, and we will see how it goes from there.... I like you were, am past my breaking point. I'm unhealthy and depressed and I need a few hours of sleep. We also decided he is going to sleep in his crib until 3 AM tonight. We will see how this goes. If, of course there is too much crying, we will bring him in with us. But I think he may find that he likes his crib better, because he usually wakes at every little thing in our bed and can't seem to get comfy....

OP, I hope the crib helps. You might even try to slant one end of the crib per the pp. That and not nursing to sleep can have a huge impact on reflux. Good luck tonight!


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## JessBB (Apr 10, 2007)

Some other ideas I don't believe I've seen mentioned:

- Exercise: by this age my ds (now 28 mo) needed a fair amount of exercise. This was tough because he was a late crawler and walker! So I would just set him on the floor to wiggle, for a long time - like hours. We would also go to a gymboree type class. He is still a super energetic guy and won't sleep well unless he is physically exhausted.

- Stimulation: I've also noticed that he really needs his mind stimulated as well. As a first time mom, I am always a few weeks behind his development as far as toys, books and activities, and usually if we are having some kind of behavioral issue introducing something new would help a lot.

- Solids: DS eats a TON. At that age he would eat 2 avocados a day. We also introduced whole milk yogurt, which he would demolish, and veggies with lots of olive oil, coconut oil, or butter. If your babe is sensitive to cow's milk, goat yogurt is a great option.

- For you: First off, for my money the most important thing is to get out of the house every.single.day. For us, it was the gym, every day at 3. If I was too tired to work out I would just take a shower and sit around until my 2 hours of childcare were up, actually I still do this.







Don't worry too much about this affecting his sleep, how much worse could it get, right?!

Also, sometimes I would just give up. I'm not talking about CIO, rather just quitting trying to get ds to sleep. How is the heck can you *make* another person sleep without using drugs, anyhow? You can't! So, I'd get up. Watch tv, read, whatever. Is your babe crying? Or just awake? I took many catnaps with ds in his exersaucer, or listening to his mobile for 30 min. Also, if I was trying to get ds down for the night, after 15 min I would take a break for a while and try again.

Another thought is that you might have some PPD that is affecting your coping mechanisms. This was the case for me. It's really a vicious cycle as sleep deprivation can cause / exacerbate PPD, which in turn makes it that much harder to deal with night waking & fussiness. I didn't really begin aggressively treating my PPD until right about where you are - 8 mo or so. Once it was under control, my ds woke just as much but I wasn't as overwhelmed by it.

Finally, I think that it's really important to do what dh and I call "reconnecting with love." No matter how terrible a night your babe has, when you get up in the morning take a minute to look at his sweet face and think about how much you two love one another.














You are his whole world, mama! And he is lucky lucky to have a mama as loving as you. It will get better, you'll all survive and live happily ever after, I promise.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

So, we had DS in his crib for about half the night last night. We started a 'more strict' bedtime routine at 7- bath with daddy, read a book (Love You Forever), rock/nurse with mommy until almost asleep, then daddy takes over rocking (so that he falls asleep with Daddy). That part went pretty well, it took him awhile to settle down with me, but when he did and DH took over, he only cried for about 30 sec's with DH before falling asleep. DH took all night wakings until 11, and DS wasn't happy about it but he only cried for about 3-5 minutes with DH before falling asleep... then he slept for 2 HOURS!!







: That is the longest stretch of sleep he's had in a long time!

After that he woke hourly (which is still better than 15-45 minutes he was waking this week!), and I finally brought him into our bed at 2, cuz I was tired of getting up and down. But I think we may gradually increase the time DH gets DS so that I can get a solid chunk in the beginning of the night. It makes a difference! I was really sad about it, but then I decided that DS can sleep with us the second half of the night, and so I feel ok with that. When we feel ready, we may try and transition him into the crib for the whole night, but we will see how this goes, and how it helps/hurts his sleep.

I have actually read Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child, and I have to say I didn't really like the overall tone of the book, or most of his approaches.. JMO







....

Thank you all for your advice and encouragement. I will keep you posted on how things are going. I am happy about our new nighttime routine, now I just need to come up with something different for naps...


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## MLA (May 22, 2008)

I know this isn't a thread about *my* sleep issues, but I thought I'd share since this is the thread that helped me keep sane . . .

Well, we tried something new last night. DH slept w/DS from 10p-3a (we planned 11a-2, or until he woke up after 2) and dealt w/him that whole time, while I slept in the guest room. Apparently, DS woke up 3 or 4 times before 11:50 and basically screamed and cried and protested, all while in DH's arms. But then he fell asleep until 3a, when DH came and got me, and I got back into bed with them. He nursed and slept and woke up every 2 hours as normal, but without any crying, and it was really peaceful. So we're going to keep doing this and slowly night wean him. I don't consider it CIO if he's crying in our arms.

Thank the lord that DH is willing to keep doing this because I was really losing my marbles.

I feel a lot better today.


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## ammiga (Jan 22, 2009)

I didn't have time to read all the posts, but we read "Sleepless in America" and found it incredibly helpful! It is geared towards kids from infants until about 15 years old. It's fast reading and very enlightening. We got it at the library. It really helped us with dd and her sleeping. She still isn't the best sleeper, but we were able to change her routine before bed and now she does from dinner, quiet play, bath, nurse, sleep in 90 minutes instead of 3 hours. She also sleeps for 3-4 hours at a time instead of 1 (and without any tears).


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## ammiga (Jan 22, 2009)

LadyCatherine185 said:


> So, we had DS in his crib for about half the night last night. We started a 'more strict' bedtime routine at 7- bath with daddy, read a book (Love You Forever), rock/nurse with mommy until almost asleep, then daddy takes over rocking (so that he falls asleep with Daddy). QUOTE]
> 
> Glad to hear things are getting better! The big thing we learned with dd was to have a calm bath time. It was totally unrealistic for my dd to have a hyper bath and be expected to sleep 30 minutes later. We have a small light on in the bathroom during bath, and some quiet playtime there.


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## AlicesMama (Nov 23, 2008)

Great news!!
So pleased to hear it's got a bit better








You may find that once DS starts to sleep more deeply, which it sounds like hopefully he is capable of, you can still have him on a mattress next to the bed. That's how we have it now, DD is next to me and I can reach out and touch her and it's lovely







: as she is still so close to me and we haven't lost any of the joy of co-sleeping, just the awful wakings!









And we have seen her sleep just get deeper and deeper and with it, she seems to have calmed down a bit as well, generally during the day. She's not so hyper and I think it's because she's getting more rest, she's in a good routine, she knows exactly what's coming next in the evenings and the daytime naps have resolved themselves around a month now after the night-weaning.

So I really hope this gives you hope







You may have a rocky couple of nights to follow this great start but don't be put off. Often it's 2 steps forward, 1 step back with these things. Hope it continues getting better generally though and well done for taking the bull by the horns! Soon now you will start to feel more human though it takes a while. I'm getting 5 hours straight now, but that's all the sleep i'm getting - that's another story but anyway, it's certainly better than 12 hours lying down in bed, getting woken EVERY HOUR! And even with that little sleep, I'm starting to feel better


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

:Glad it went better! I meant to post this in my OP, but forgot. With dd1, I never let her cry *at all*. Even in daddy's arms, nana's arms, or with me laying down next to her. And it drove me bananas. With dd2 I realized that ANY change will frustrate them, they can't understand that you are losing it and that this is for THIER health too. So, being picked up by daddy isn't their PREFERENCE, but it's not hurting them. They are in loving arms. And they may cry. Because it's new, it's a change to what they have known their whole little lives. But they are OK. Crying in a loving pair of arms is NOT CIO. Some people here would say that it is...however I disagree. Leaving a baby/toddler/child to cry ALONE when they are seeking comfort is CIO. Anytime you change up their life, the only way they can tell you something is to cry. So long as it's not prolonged or out of control, it's ok.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

So I took the "don't worry about it" approach with naps today... gave him several oppurtunities to nap, tried rocking/nursing, and nursing in bed, but when he faught it too hard, I gave up....

He is now (5:45 pm) down for only his SECOND nap of the day. He took ONE 45 minute nap this morning from 11-11:45. He woke up at 6 am this morning. that is 45 minutes of sleep in almost 12 hours. You cannot tell me that is normal or good for a 9 month old!

Since DH is home and we had some things to do today (went to the grocery store to get some food I can eat on my ED, for one!) it was easier to keep him busy/distracted from being tired. Now of course each time he fussed/rubbed his eyes/acted sleepy I did TRY to put him down for a nap. On a normal day when it is just me, I don't have the energy to keep him entertained for 11 hours a day!

oy.....


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
So I took the "don't worry about it" approach with naps today... gave him several oppurtunities to nap, tried rocking/nursing, and nursing in bed, but when he faught it too hard, I gave up....

He is now (5:45 pm) down for only his SECOND nap of the day. He took ONE 45 minute nap this morning from 11-11:45. He woke up at 6 am this morning. that is 45 minutes of sleep in almost 12 hours. You cannot tell me that is normal or good for a 9 month old!

Since DH is home and we had some things to do today (went to the grocery store to get some food I can eat on my ED, for one!) it was easier to keep him busy/distracted from being tired. Now of course each time he fussed/rubbed his eyes/acted sleepy I did TRY to put him down for a nap. On a normal day when it is just me, I don't have the energy to keep him entertained for 11 hours a day!

oy.....










I would call it bedtime then and not a nap and try to get him back to sleep when he wakes. My daughter used to go to bed at 5:30pm every night (woke up at 7am) and my son does too if he doesn't get his third nap, otherwise it's 6 or 6:30pm. He usually gets up between 6 and 6:30am regardless of when he went to sleep.


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## SeekingJoy (Apr 30, 2007)

PM'd you.


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## Danielle13 (Oct 31, 2007)

well, here is my experience I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if I repeat









My daughter is nearing 20 months. She JUST started sttn about 3 weeks ago. I nightweaned her around 18 months. For the first 14 months of her life she woke up nightly every 15-20 minutes. That is no exageration. Nobody believed me, everyone thought I was lying. But I am telling you, it is true. I cried and cried everyday. Everyone told me to stick it out, just get through it. But no one was waking up every 20 minutes except ME! If I didn't nurse her, she'd scream. If I didnt' give in, and tried to cuddle her she'd scream until I nursed her no matter how long I tried to hold out, she'd scream until she nursed.

I may take some criticism for this, but at 14 months I did the Baby Whisperer pick up put down method. After a while of that she was ready for me to do the walk in walk out method. I taught her how to fall asleep on her own. She started sleeping a little longer. Then at 18ish months I just decided I couldn't take another second of the torture and nightweaned her. The first night was AWFUL to say the VERY least. crying and crying. But then it was ok. slowely things got easier at night and then one night 11 days after I nightweaned her she woke up at 1 am and I realized. OH.MY.GOSH! This SUCKS! I've been sttn with her for 11 days and didnt' realize that she was doing it!!!

Now that she's older we found out she has numerous food allergies. wheat, dairy, red fruits, eggs, soy, some food dyes. I had given up dairy and wheat and soy, but never would have thought of giving up red furits! I don't know if that had THAT much to do with her nightwakings, because she started sttn before we found out about them.

In hindsight, if I have a child like this again I will not be afraid to very gently sleep "train" for my sanity. I was a grouchy mean mama and wife. And I had a reason! It was the worst year and I wasn't me. We give up a LOT for our babies. And sleep deprivation is part of being a mother. But I learned that I am a mother not a martyr. And when my health started going down hill I knew I had to do something (hallucinating, passing out randomly, blurry vision, hair falling out ect). I guess what I"m trying to say is do what you have to do that is what is best for your baby and you. Obviously cio isn't good for your baby so that is nixed. but there are other options. you can pm me if you have other questions


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## AutumnAir (Jun 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SeekingJoy* 
I posted on one of your threads a few months ago, but I wanted to put this suggestion out again. Have you tried reading Sleepless in America?

Also, DS sounds just like your son. A CRAPPY sleeper. Fought sleep like no one's business. All the AP/conventional sleep advice just didn't and doesn't work for him. He is now 3.5 and we are coming out of the other side, but sleep (his lack of it leading to aggressive, disruptive behavior) is still a huge issue in our family. It gets better, but slowly.

This sounds crazy and I will probably get flamed, but here it is.

For us, we had to break the cycle of sleeplessness and being overtired.

*DS needs/ed a strict routine. I still nursed on demand, but sleep wasn't on demand. Because he could go from "happy, happy, happy" to screaming his head off in 30 seconds. Literally. As he got older, his clues get clearer, but even DH misses them half the time.

* More frequent, but shorter naps were what worked. In the beginning, it felt like I spent most of our day getting him to sleep, and I did, but it got better. He had a newborn's 2-hour cycle until almost a year. He took two naps a day until almost 2. He *just* dropped his afternoon nap. He has always required more nighttime parenting and had a delay in meeting sleep "milestones." It sounds like you understand his need for more sleep parenting, but are at a loss for additional strategies to try. Hope some of this helps.

* I stopped doing anything that would stretch our routine. I would leave the grocery store with only half our list picked up. I would cut lunch short. I would bail on friends. No matter what, at 9 am we were getting ready for nap. We also refused to travel. Our vacay with DS at 7 months was a nightmare, and we didn't travel again for a year.

* I moved DS to his own crib own room. We co-sleep periodically, but between 6 months - 24 or so, DS at least started each night and napped alone in his crib. I disturbed him. It turned out that even more than me, DH's tossing and turning disturbs him.

* I started putting him to sleep on his stomach with his crib (and therefore mattress) raised at one end slightly.

* We picked a bed time routine and stuck with it. That has changed over the past few years of course, but DS needed to know each step and what was coming next so he could relax. Teeth, story, song, bounce to sleep upright on a birth ball (nursing to sleep aggravated the reflux). This sounds really regimented and like I am a control freak, but I promise this isn't how I pictured parenting. It isn't how I parent DD. DS needs it.

* When he got older (26 months or so) we periodically gave him meletonin. Its OTC and a supplement. We gave him a VERY small dose. But honestly, that was what saved my marriage and sanity. A night or two of it and a really early bedtime helped DS "reset" his internal sleep clock. Turns out he is extremely sensitive to cortisol, whether from emotional stress or lack of sleep.

You might want to keep him on the reflux meds even if they don't immediately work. DS was on them until 9 months, but periodically would have to get back on them later.

Hope even one part of this helps. PM if I you have questions or want additional support. It will get better even if you do nothing, but there are things you can try now to help somewhat.

I tried to post something similar to this thread twice already, got a big long post typed out and then DD woke up and by the time I got back teh computer had eaten it









Anyway, we found that a very strict schedule was needed when it came to DD's sleep. I haven't read Sleepless in America, but I got the idea from Raising your Spirited Kid, by the same author I think. DD is very irregular, and left to her own devices will not sleep, or do anything with any regularity.

It's all gone out the window lately becuase we're in the middle of moving countries, changing jobs etc. and I've just had to accept that I can't keep to a strict routine in the middle of all of this, though I'm still doing my best to provide dd with as much structure as I can.

But for a while there sleep was, while not good, reasonable. I enforced two naps a day and if she didn't sleep fine, but she had to stay in bed with me. Same for bedtime. It meant I had to give up any idea of doing anything else while she was supposedly 'napping' or 'sleeping' but after a while she got the idea that we were going to be there for the same amount of time no matter what so she may as well sleep.

We also had some success with DH going in and doing the early night-wakings for about a month until she went through some serious separation anxiety and started screaming for me - I'm back to doing all the night-wakings again now.

Good luck - I hope you find something that works for you all soon.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

I'm glad that starting the night in the crib with dh going in for the first nightwakings met with some success! That makes me inclined to think that the core issue is not allergies, reflux etc. but simply that sleeping next to you is too stimulating. Both of my kids transitioned to the crib around 7 months, not because I was "done" with cosleeping, but because THEY were. They would wake up every hour and scream and yell in obvious frustration that they had been awoken. I never thought I'd be the kind of mom who was staggering down the hall at 2 a.m. to feed the baby, but that's what ended up happening!

"I understand people mean well when they say to just "relax" and "let up on the sleeping" and "Not to worry about the sleeping"... ok, so what am I supposed to do with a sleepy, fussy, crying baby who desperately needs a nap?! And please, someone tell me how I am supposed to just "relax" and "stop worrying" about his sleeping?? Alcohol? Drugs?"

My first child took many naps in the Bjorn while I rocked in my glider drinking a glass of wine and reading a romance novel, very deliberately NOT thinking about him even though he was literally on top of me. So, yes. Alcohol.









If I were you, I think I'd focus more on my OWN sleep needs (i.e. a decent chunk at night), and if you have a baby who stops napping in the daytime before he's year old, well, he won't be the first baby who has ever done that. He may be tired and cranky, and obviously you'll keep trying any new idea that you come across to help him sleep during the day, but ultimately it's not something you can control. He may just not be cut out to do it. At night, for your own sanity and health, you and dh need to insist that it's sleeping time for the whole family, and it sounds like your initial efforts in that direction are going well! Keep it up!


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

"in crib" is in quotes cuz it didn't happen..









Last night DS realized what we were doing. He did NOT want to sleep in that crib. He fell asleep reasonably easy, DH put him down and he immediately woke and screamed. DH picked him back up, rocked him back to sleep, put him back down, SCREAM. This time it took awhile to console him. After about 30-40 minutes of this pick up put down thing, I came in, I couldn't take the screaming anymore. He wasn't even calming down in the rocker with DH..









So I rocked him, he was out in less than a minute, and I put him in the crib. He stayed asleep for about an hour, and when he woke up he let out the most heartbreaking "i'm scared mama!" scream... I went and got him, tried rocking him and he wouldn't calm down.

So I took him to our bed and nursed him on the bed and he drifted off to a peaceful sleep. He slept the night in our bed, and actually didn't do too bad! I think he was up every hour or so, but, like I said earlier, better than every 15 minutes!

I can't go through that again, I know DS is NOT ready for his crib, and I'm not ready for him to be there either. Tonight, we are going to put his matress on the floor in our room and try that..


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## ILoveSweetpea (Jan 7, 2009)

oh, mama























I haven't had a chance to read all the posts, but I just had to pop in and say that I totally understand. You DS sounds very similar to my DS, except my DS isn't as strict about his environment.

My DS fights sleep like crazy. Last night was a three hour wrestling match. He was clearly tired - rubbing eyes, yawning... but he did NOT want to sleep. He typically sleep for about an hour at a time. To be totally honest with you, most nights I am sleeping with him in my arms.

DH and I are thinking about TTC #2, but to be honest, I have no idea when we could DTD!! I mean, if DS would take a nap on his own, without me holding him, that would help so so so much. If he would sleep in his crib for more than 30 minutes, that would help too.

I hear you when you say that you are catering to your DS's needs, but it is just exhausting. I feel the same way.

I wish I had advice. I've read The No Cry Sleep Solution, but nothing helped. Every night I just keep telling myself that he will EVENTUALLY improve... when he is ready. It may take a while, but he'll get there.

When I am not NAKing I'll come back and read this entire thread. Thanks for being so open and honest about how craptacular nights can be with babies who don't want to sleep (ever). If I ever come across a workable solution, I'll be sure to send you instructions!


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Just a friendly reminder to all those with crappy sleepers...NEVER talk about or post about how well your crappy sleeper is currently sleeping







. The sleep gods will remind you that you have gotten too comfortable by taking back the good sleeping mojo they had bestowed on your little one.

My son was up about 350 times between the hours of 8:30pm and 1:30am. He was exhausted and wanted desperately to sleep but was having trouble getting there and even when he did, he couldn't stay there. My mom showed up yesterday afternoon for a week long stay and brought a bunch of loud light up blinky toys and I think they might have overstimulated him. At least I'm hoping it's that simple.

Anyway, Catie, I'm sorry to hear things didn't go as smoothly last night. My son was pretty receptive to the crib in his room and slept much better in it, but if that were not the case, I wouldn't have pushed it either. Maybe you could look into sidecarring since you said he seems to want to spread out. That way he could still be close but have his own space too.


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## SeekingJoy (Apr 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
Just a friendly reminder to all those with crappy sleepers...NEVER talk about or post about how well your crappy sleeper is currently sleeping







. The sleep gods will remind you that you have gotten too comfortable by taking back the good sleeping mojo they had bestowed on your little one.

My son was up about 350 times between the hours of 8:30pm and 1:30am. He was exhausted and wanted desperately to sleep but was having trouble getting there and even when he did, he couldn't stay there. My mom showed up yesterday afternoon for a week long stay and brought a bunch of loud light up blinky toys and I think they might have overstimulated him. At least I'm hoping it's that simple.

Anyway, Catie, I'm sorry to hear things didn't go as smoothly last night. My son was pretty receptive to the crib in his room and slept much better in it, but if that were not the case, I wouldn't have pushed it either. Maybe you could look into sidecarring since you said he seems to want to spread out. That way he could still be close but have his own space too.

So true! My crappy sleeper (3.5 yrs) was up a bunch last night.

riverscout, the sidecar sounds like a good next strategy to try. Similarly, doing naps in the crib first so LO can wake up and see a familiar place around him could also help.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SeekingJoy* 
So true! My crappy sleeper (3.5 yrs) was up a bunch last night.

There must have been something in the air last night in NC. Even my 3.5 year old who has always been a good sleeper and has very rarely woken up at night since she started STTN at 18 months was up as well.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

I think we are going to try side-car, or just put the matress on the floor, so I can nurse him there and just pop back up to the bed. I am realllllly hoping that the allergies are the main problem with the wake-ups..

I have been thinking about it.. I have been doing really bad the last month or so, eating a lot of dairy (just not actually drinking milk) and tomatoey stuff.. both big reactors. He has developed some bad eczema patches over the last 2 weeks.. and his sleep has been worse than ever the last 2 weeks. I don't think that its a coincidence. He had started having some good nights about a month ago, sleeping 2-3 hour chunks, and sleeping in till 7. I am praying that the elim diet does the trick. I can handle 2-3 hour chunks..

The only problem with the crib-nap thing is that I can never get him down without waking him up. That's why I usually have to get him to sleep, put him on the bed, then nurse him back to sleep AGAIN, cuz he always wakes up..









SeekingJoy- thanks for the PM, going to PM you back!


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## MLA (May 22, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
*I think we are going to try side-car*, or just put the matress on the floor, so I can nurse him there and just pop back up to the bed. I am realllllly hoping that the allergies are the main problem with the wake-ups..

I have been thinking about it.. I have been doing really bad the last month or so, eating a lot of dairy (just not actually drinking milk) and tomatoey stuff.. both big reactors. He has developed some bad eczema patches over the last 2 weeks.. and his sleep has been worse than ever the last 2 weeks. I don't think that its a coincidence. He had started having some good nights about a month ago, sleeping 2-3 hour chunks, and sleeping in till 7. I am praying that the elim diet does the trick. I can handle 2-3 hour chunks..

The only problem with the crib-nap thing is that *I can never get him down without waking him up.* That's why I usually have to get him to sleep, put him on the bed, then nurse him back to sleep AGAIN, cuz he always wakes up..









SeekingJoy- thanks for the PM, going to PM you back!

I highly recommend sidecarring. I'm so glad we finally sidecarred our crib. It's made a big difference for us. W/the crib sidecarred you don't have to deal w/the waking up every time you set him down stuff because he falls asleep in the crib.


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## mckennasmomma (Sep 29, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
The only problem with the crib-nap thing is that I can never get him down without waking him up. That's why I usually have to get him to sleep, put him on the bed, then nurse him back to sleep AGAIN, cuz he always wakes up..









Honestly i don't think I have EVER successfully put dd down after she fell asleep, other than when I move her from my arms (while nursing) to the bed and keep my breast in her mouth until after she has re-settled in to that position. Then I can often remove my breast and she'll stay asleep. But the whole "placing the asleep baby in a crib" thing...I can't even imagine it working. Obviously lots of people do that successfully, but definitely not around here!

And yeh, it happened here too: dd had been gradually sleeping better and better, then a couple nights ago slept clear through until 4:15 am!!! I even wrote about it in my journal. The very next night we were back to hourly wakings. Big ol' jinx!

we'll all get there someday...


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

So last night we kind of went back to our 'regular' system.. He slept with us all night and didn't do too bad. Up every hour I think. But we did have a MUCH better day yesterday, he had 3 naps, I think a total of 3.5 hours of naps for the day.And we had our church small-group yesterday evening which is from 6-8, so we were out a little late, but he fell asleep in the car on the way home and I got him into our bed and nursed him right back to sleep for the night!







: So, a night without fighting to sleep! yay!!

DH is out of town on business tonight, so it will be just me, but on the brightside DS and I will have the whole bed to ourselves!


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## AlicesMama (Nov 23, 2008)

Well that's good news too. Small steps and all that! I think most on here would agree that getting their LO to STTN is a series of small steps over a period of time, usually taking weeks or months and it doesn't just happen overnight. It takes time, all LO has known is feeding or fighting or both and it takes a long time to gently help them towards sleeping longer stretches.

I do agree with everyone else on here though, there's no way I could pick DD up and put her somewhere else, once she's gone to sleep. We tried the crib and putting her down in it after asleep and she screamed the 'I'm scared' cry, so we stopped.
For us the breakthrough has been:
1) mattresses on the floor
2) separate sleep surface for DD
3) DH helping her back to sleep for a clear portion of the night while she learnt to sleep without the nipple. Now that's she's got that I'm sleeping with her again, able to nurse 5am - 7am, really whenever it starts to get light. The moment it gets light, she knows it's time to feed! Clever baby








4) A set bedtime, between 7 and 7:20pm she is asleep, no naps after 4pm but if desperate, a small cat nap at 5pm for 20 to 30 mins.

Hope the night was OK! Fingers crossed for you


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## Thing1Thing2 (Apr 30, 2008)

Cate, I was thinking about you last night. Forgot to mention that babies with reflux overeat to soothe the burn in the throat. Overeating exacerbates reflux so badly.

Maybe letting him go 2 hours between bfs would help? As long as he's not crying he will be fine. My LO fussed a little.. but boy did he feel great when the reflux settled down.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BonnieNova* 
Cate, I was thinking about you last night. Forgot to mention that babies with reflux overeat to soothe the burn in the throat. Overeating exacerbates reflux so badly.

Maybe letting him go 2 hours between bfs would help? As long as he's not crying he will be fine. My LO fussed a little.. but boy did he feel great when the reflux settled down.

When he wakes every hour like that, he usually just sucks for a couple seconds and then goes back to sleep, I don't even let down and he doesn't get much, if any, milk. There are a few times where he actually does get a good feeding, but I'd say it would be with every couple wakings. BF'ing is the only way to get him back to sleep at night..









We took him off Prevacid a few months ago.. should we try putting him back on it? I have thought about it.. but I've also thought of waiting 2 weeks and seeing if the elim diet does the trick.


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## ErynneM (May 16, 2009)

Just my two cents on remedies... don't try too many at once. If one of them works, but you're trying two or three things, how're you going to know which one did the trick? Try one thing for 3-4wk, and if you're having no success, try something new. It may sound like it'll take an eternity to get something that works, but it'll be worth it when you do have a working system and the ability to sleep faily peacefully.

- E


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ErynneM* 
Just my two cents on remedies... don't try too many at once. If one of them works, but you're trying two or three things, how're you going to know which one did the trick? Try one thing for 3-4wk, and if you're having no success, try something new. It may sound like it'll take an eternity to get something that works, but it'll be worth it when you do have a working system and the ability to sleep faily peacefully.

- E

I think you are right.. we will give the elim diet 2 weeks, and then maybe try the prevacid again....

question, does anyone know a good way to slightly elevate a matress on the floor? safely? safe enough for me to lay on it to nurse him back to sleep?

he has had several naps today, and seems to be sleeping well.. hoping that means we will have a good night!







:







:


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Just wanted to give you guys an update on how our week has been going--

I have been doing fairly well on my ED, a few accidental slip-ups but nothing too terrible. We have started the Prevacid again, because after talking with a friend I realized he does still seem to be having reflux issues. We may wean him off of that again after I figure all of the allergy stuff out tho.

We have had some really great days this week. Wednesday and Thursday were just about perfect. He took great naps, was happy and smiling most of the day. We got outside and got lots of fresh air.. the weather was beautiful. The nights have been 'ok'... still waking every hour or so, but I think we may have had a 1.5-2 hour stretch thrown in there.

And then there was last night... He woke every 30 minutes. Until 3:30 when he stayed awake until 4:30, rolling around in the bed. Then slept till 5, and nursed from 5-6, then up at 6 for good. Today he cried a lot. He cried in his sleep during a nap (I was napping with him). He cried when he woke up from another nap for about an hour and I couldn't calm him down. He had a LOT of gas.







Poor boy didn't feel good.

He went to sleep tonight without a fight though!







: So I am hoping that we will have a good night.... Even if we don't, tomorrow is Saturday and I will get to sleep in because DS and DH have their man-date...









ETA: I've been reading Sleepless in America. I highly reccomend it to anyone else experiencing sleep problems like we are. It has really helped me have a new perspective on DS's sleep. It isn't his fault, he isn't TRYING to not sleep, and it isn't my fault either. He has a really hard time winding down, and there are things I need to do during the day to keep him from getting too wired, and keep things low stress for him. He is just so sensitive to stimulation that it makes it so much harder for him to transition from awake to asleep....


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## mckennasmomma (Sep 29, 2008)

I"m so sorry you had a rough night last night







Coincidentally, dd had a gassy-disruptive night too. I think it was the broccoli we introduced.

Ups and downs. Thank goodness for the ups though...it is what keeps us hopeful!


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

I just don't get it. I've been off ALL allergens for over a week. Things have been getting WORSE. I know, it takes 2 weeks to get out of my system, but COME ON!! It shouldn't be getting WORSE!!!







We have had some of the worst nights EVER. I am a walking ZOMBIE!!!!!!!

We have his 9 month WBV on Wednesday, I am planning to talk with his ped about possible reasons for his night-wakings. There is no reason he should be waking every 30 minutes at 9 months old, other than some sort of health reasons or SOMETHING. Maybe we will have him blood-tested for allergies, and maybe check for deficiencies.....

I am going to go crazy before we are done with all of this.









Please, God.. Let my next baby be a good sleeper.







:


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## Evelynmia'smom (Mar 8, 2009)

you poor mama. I would talk to your pediatrician about it for sure....is it possible he has an ear infection?? You know, my lo has recently started waking about 30 to 40 minutes after I get her to sleep...just screaming... the first thing I thought was that it seemed like maybe a nightmare...








I'm not sure if that's even developmentally possible at this age. Also, this age is separation anxiety time as well.
I am sometimes in the same boat as you...other times not. I'm not sure what the cause is...it's really frustrating esp. since you know they are tired. I don't know any other parents (IRL) that have babies that sleep or rather _don't sleep_ like mine. I really do think that part of this is that they just don't know how to fall back asleep without us...or the breast. I often feel like there are two choices....let the baby cio or deal with sleep deprivation and feel miserable...it just doesn't seem fair. I haven't read all of the posts...so forgive me if this has already been answered...does your lo sleep the whole night in your bed or does he start out in a crib. How does he nap? It could also be that he is so overtired from whatever it is that keeps him up that it is a vicious cycle??


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## VeganCupcake (Jun 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
I just don't get it. I've been off ALL allergens for over a week. Things have been getting WORSE. I know, it takes 2 weeks to get out of my system, but COME ON!! It shouldn't be getting WORSE!!!







We have had some of the worst nights EVER. I am a walking ZOMBIE!!!!!!!

We have his 9 month WBV on Wednesday, I am planning to talk with his ped about possible reasons for his night-wakings. There is no reason he should be waking every 30 minutes at 9 months old, other than some sort of health reasons or SOMETHING. Maybe we will have him blood-tested for allergies, and maybe check for deficiencies.....

I am going to go crazy before we are done with all of this.









Please, God.. Let my next baby be a good sleeper.







:

I have no scientific backup for this, but I've heard that sometimes with allergies and elimination diets, it does sometimes get worse before it gets better. I don't know why, though.

Sorry you're going through this. I think asking your doctor is a good idea, but beware that you may get a sleep training talk. I got that at 5.5 months when I asked about reflux and my doctor recommended CIO. So gird your loins for that and be prepared.


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## mckennasmomma (Sep 29, 2008)

One thing to check medically is iron deficiency (ear infection is another).

Have you taken him to a chiro that specifically works with babies?


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evelynmia'smom* 







you poor mama. I would talk to your pediatrician about it for sure....is it possible he has an ear infection?? You know, my lo has recently started waking about 30 to 40 minutes after I get her to sleep...just screaming... the first thing I thought was that it seemed like maybe a nightmare...








I'm not sure if that's even developmentally possible at this age. Also, this age is separation anxiety time as well.
I am sometimes in the same boat as you...other times not. I'm not sure what the cause is...it's really frustrating esp. since you know they are tired. I don't know any other parents (IRL) that have babies that sleep or rather _don't sleep_ like mine. I really do think that part of this is that they just don't know how to fall back asleep without us...or the breast. I often feel like there are two choices....let the baby cio or deal with sleep deprivation and feel miserable...it just doesn't seem fair. I haven't read all of the posts...so forgive me if this has already been answered...does your lo sleep the whole night in your bed or does he start out in a crib. How does he nap? It could also be that he is so overtired from whatever it is that keeps him up that it is a vicious cycle??

I think Liam has nightmares sometimes too. He cries in his sleep and wakes up screaming afterwards sometimes. I don't know any other parents with babies who sleep like Liam either. Never heard of it. I think some of it is that he can't get back to sleep without me, but I'm RIGHT THERE.. we cosleep all night. We've tried variations of crib and with us, and he sleeps better with us.

Naps- as long as I am ON him (not physically ON him, but, on him about getting to sleep), and we are not busy, he naps alright. I mean, it is a FIGHT to get him to sleep, and he wakes up after 30 minutes but will usually go back to sleep if I nurse him right away. Most naps if I sleep with him he sleeps with the boob in his mouth the whole nap. Doesn't do that for nighttime though.

Could def be a vicious cycle.. Not enough sleep=extra cortisol=extra NOT sleeping. But this week I have been SO careful with his napping and TRYING to get him to bed early as possible (still can't manage to get him to sleep before 7:30-8) and it hasn't helped.

I've done everything I can possibly think of, and more.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VeganCupcake* 
I have no scientific backup for this, but I've heard that sometimes with allergies and elimination diets, it does sometimes get worse before it gets better. I don't know why, though.

Sorry you're going through this. I think asking your doctor is a good idea, but beware that you may get a sleep training talk. I got that at 5.5 months when I asked about reflux and my doctor recommended CIO. So gird your loins for that and be prepared.

I wonder if that is true about ED's. That would be nice if things start to improve....

I am ready for the CIO talk, though I don't think my ped will tell me to. She is very AP friendly, and open to talking about lots of different options about lots of different things...


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mckennasmomma* 
One thing to check medically is iron deficiency (ear infection is another).

Have you taken him to a chiro that specifically works with babies?

I have not taken him to a chiro, though that has been suggested to me before. Does anyone know HOW that would help? Or have any success stories of it helping sleep? Its a lot of money to pay for something I know nothing about and haven't heard anything from anyone about how it has helped baby's sleep.

He doesn't have an ear infection. No fever, is fine during the day.. just doesn't SLEEP...................


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## MujerMamaMismo (Oct 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 

Please, God.. Let my next baby be a good sleeper.







:

Another babe. You're a bigger person than me. I'm convinced DS is an only after the hell of sleeplessness.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MujerMamaMismo* 
Another babe. You're a bigger person than me. I'm convinced DS is an only after the hell of sleeplessness.









Haha. My husband and I have seriously considered making DS an only. We had originally said we wanted 3 or 4 kids.. not anymore.. But I know I want at least one more. I need a little girl...









And there is the hope that I will have a laid-back, decent sleeping, non-allergic, reflux free little baby next. And if I have another one like DS, at least I know what to expect, and maybe will have more answers by then.


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## VeganCupcake (Jun 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
I have not taken him to a chiro, though that has been suggested to me before. Does anyone know HOW that would help? Or have any success stories of it helping sleep? Its a lot of money to pay for something I know nothing about and haven't heard anything from anyone about how it has helped baby's sleep.

He doesn't have an ear infection. No fever, is fine during the day.. just doesn't SLEEP...................

Again, no scientific evidence, but I've heard that one of the causes of reflux can be a pinched nerve that prevents the sphincter between the tummy and esophagus from closing properly. So that's why chiro often helps reflux, which can help sleep.

Also, say your baby has some kind of misalignment in his neck or hips or something that causes pain, like aches or headaches. That could cause nightwaking.

I took my DD to a chiro when she was 3 months old, and she did have some funky hip and neck alignment issues. She slept better for a few days. I would have taken her back, but the chiro worked out of her home and it smelled so strongly of pet urine that I just couldn't bear to go back.







I need to find someone else, but I've been slacking.


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## Autumn C. (Jul 30, 2008)

oops! Meant to start a different thread. Sorry!


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## skolbut (Feb 18, 2008)

How frustrating, mama!! The odd thing is... each kid is so different, it's hard to figure out what will work for yours. Here are a few of my suggestions (not necessarily ap/family bed but they might help a mama in need, so no flames pls):
-A swing or vibrating bouncy seat. DS2 had really bad reflux and I found that some swing time every day helped, even if he fussed a bit he eventually calmed down and would sometimes even fall asleep. He almost always finishes his afternoon nap in it, it's a lifesaver. DS1 wasn't keen on swinging so I gave his away, what a mistake!!
-A tight swaddle, even at 8.5months. Just use a bigger blanket or even a cut piece of sheet. I have a friend whose little guy loves being swaddled still at 2!
-A laundry basket with bedding in it on top of the washer/dryer. The vibration/heat/steam can help some babies (obviously with you at arms reach but at least you can sit and read a book or...umm... get your laundry done, lol)
-A pool noodle or tightly rolled towel under the mattress to elevate.
-Gripe Water (a lifesaver for refluxy #2)
-A paci or a lovey... I don't want to ruin your breastfeeding or anything like that but some kids just.need.to.suck.all.the.time. and you sound like you're ready for a break.... use it for just that, a break.

DS1 napped 5 times a day for 20 minutes at this age. Crazy but I was strict about bedtime and he STTN or maybe woke once a night by 4 months so I didn't care about the nap.

DS2 was just like you described, fussy all the time and didn't really sleep well at all until we found a milk that would work for his belly (he's ff now so I don't have much help for you there) and the swing. Also he likes to feed and rock to sleep.


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## lurve (May 5, 2006)

i haven't read the responses but i just wanted to let you know, i have been there, done that, doing that. my dd is two years old and very much like your baby is. she is still a crappy sleeper. somewhere around 18 months she could take a two hour nap but i had to be there. i still have to be there for all of her sleeping basically. she just needs that physical closeness. i read a lot and i have a laptop. hugs mama


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skolbut* 
How frustrating, mama!! The odd thing is... each kid is so different, it's hard to figure out what will work for yours. Here are a few of my suggestions (not necessarily ap/family bed but they might help a mama in need, so no flames pls):
-A swing or vibrating bouncy seat. DS2 had really bad reflux and I found that some swing time every day helped, even if he fussed a bit he eventually calmed down and would sometimes even fall asleep. He almost always finishes his afternoon nap in it, it's a lifesaver. DS1 wasn't keen on swinging so I gave his away, what a mistake!!
-A tight swaddle, even at 8.5months. Just use a bigger blanket or even a cut piece of sheet. I have a friend whose little guy loves being swaddled still at 2!
-A laundry basket with bedding in it on top of the washer/dryer. The vibration/heat/steam can help some babies (obviously with you at arms reach but at least you can sit and read a book or...umm... get your laundry done, lol)
-A pool noodle or tightly rolled towel under the mattress to elevate.
-Gripe Water (a lifesaver for refluxy #2)
-A paci or a lovey... I don't want to ruin your breastfeeding or anything like that but some kids just.need.to.suck.all.the.time. and you sound like you're ready for a break.... use it for just that, a break.

DS1 napped 5 times a day for 20 minutes at this age. Crazy but I was strict about bedtime and he STTN or maybe woke once a night by 4 months so I didn't care about the nap.

DS2 was just like you described, fussy all the time and didn't really sleep well at all until we found a milk that would work for his belly (he's ff now so I don't have much help for you there) and the swing. Also he likes to feed and rock to sleep.


Not to shoot down your advice, but I've tried pretty much all of those things..







And they didn't work.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

So the last 3 nights things have been a little better. Last night we even got a 2.5 hour stretch!







: And he slept until 6 this morning!









I have to admit, I stopped the ED this weekend.







But I plan to resume ASAP!

We had our 9 month WBV today, and I talked with his Ped. about the sleep/allergy/reflux issues. She is having us get DS tested again, with the blood test, to check the allergies. Also, she wants us to up the dose of Prevacid for 4 days to see if it makes a drastic improvement. She thinks that the allergies and reflux definitely could be causing the poor sleep, but that it could just be a 'habit' as well.







: She sorta gave the CIO talk, said that she coslept with her son until he was 9 mo and then she couldn't take it anymore and let him CIO. Took 3 nights and he was STTN from then on. BUT she said that if I wasn't comfortable doing it, then don't do it. I told her I wouldn't do it, and she said "I totally understand, I was just at the end of my rope and had no choice when I did it." Which I thought went really well compared to what most Ped's say about CIO!

Now a little bragging--

Liam's 9 month stats-

24 lbs 3 oz's (90th %)
28 inches long (50th %) <- she thinks he hasn't hit his 9 mo growth spurt yet cuz he is usually in the 75th%
19 inch head circ (>100th %)

she also said he seems to be ahead on milestones and motor skills!







:

Thanks everyone for all your advice! I will keep you updated on any changes, etc.


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## mckennasmomma (Sep 29, 2008)

Quote:

So the last 3 nights things have been a little better. Last night we even got a 2.5 hour stretch! And he slept until 6 this morning!

I have to admit, I stopped the ED this weekend. But I plan to resume ASAP!

i gotta ask...if he has been sleeping better when you were not on the ED why do you want to start again? is it possible that there is something you eliminated that he needs? magnesium is what is jumping to my mind (because it helps with relaxation of muscles) but there are any numer of nutrients that it could be (calcium is crucial for magnesium absorption for example)


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mckennasmomma* 
i gotta ask...if he has been sleeping better when you were not on the ED why do you want to start again? is it possible that there is something you eliminated that he needs? magnesium is what is jumping to my mind (because it helps with relaxation of muscles) but there are any numer of nutrients that it could be (calcium is crucial for magnesium absorption for example)

I was just thinking that it was sort of a delayed-reaction type thing. Like, he started sleeping better because all of the allergens were out of my system, but the new allergens I re-introduced hadn't caught up with him yet. I don't know..









Plus, we started doing the Prevacid again, so I was thinking maybe the sleeping better had something to do with that.

I may wait until next week to start the ED again, after we get the blood tests done to know for sure what he's reacting to. I still do know that he def is allergic to dairy and tomatoes, so I will stay away from those for the time being.

What are things that have magnesium in them? Eating my 'regular' diet, I was eating things with wheat, things that were processed, etc. Not healthy. I was eating healthier on the ED.


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## mckennasmomma (Sep 29, 2008)

Quote:

What are things that have magnesium in them? Eating my 'regular' diet, I was eating things with wheat, things that were processed, etc. Not healthy. I was eating healthier on the ED.
Leafy greens are the best. Nuts are high too. But be sure your calcium intake is up there since they work together. If you are dairy free you might be low in calcium.


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## paulamc (Jun 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
What are things that have magnesium in them? Eating my 'regular' diet, I was eating things with wheat, things that were processed, etc. Not healthy. I was eating healthier on the ED.

Are you familiar with the 'worlds healthiest foods' website? If you search for a particular food, it gives you the low down on the health benefits of that food, and details on the nutrients in that food (% daily value, etc...). If you search for a particular vitamin, mineral, or other nutrient, it gives you the low down on what that nutrient does for your health, and what foods are highest in it. The main search box on the website doesn't work too well for me, but if I Google "wh foods + search term (ie. magnesium)" I usually get the right link. I find this website really useful

Here's the link to magnesium:

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...trient&dbid=75


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## mckennasmomma (Sep 29, 2008)

great link paulamc! the first "benefit" of magnesium that they list is "Relax your nerves and muscles" which is the main reason it can help with sleep.


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## Starfish11 (Apr 4, 2008)

I hope I am not repeating anything already said









Our neighbors had almost identical "issues" with their sweet little girl who is now 11 months. They went to a specialist who recommended that they start solids. Their DD now sleeps through the night after meals of sweet potatoes, avacado, and green beans. I don't know if this is an option but for what it's worth it helped them tremendously.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Starfish11* 
I hope I am not repeating anything already said









Our neighbors had almost identical "issues" with their sweet little girl who is now 11 months. They went to a specialist who recommended that they start solids. Their DD now sleeps through the night after meals of sweet potatoes, avacado, and green beans. I don't know if this is an option but for what it's worth it helped them tremendously.










thanks for the advice! we actually started solids about 3 months ago, and it hasn't helped.


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## snuggly (Feb 9, 2009)

Hey, I skipped some of the earlier posts here so just jump ahead if you have already hear this... I wanted to chime in a few things that have worked at our house.

DD is 6.5 months old and a "tricky: sleeper... A month or so ago I was really struggling. I finally went on a walk on my own and came to the conclusion that I can't make her sleep or change her sleep patterns, I can only provide her a safe and loving atmosphere to create healthy sleep herself. But, I was like you- something had to change! I started to focus on _my_ sleep and here is what is working well, not perfectly, but well for us.

When she falls asleep for the night,
1- I take half a glass of water with 5 drops of rescue remedy and a calcium supplement.
2- DH and I take 20 minutes together, no matter how late it is to talk, watch a few minutes of a movie, just sit on the couch, whatever.
3- I have removed all clocks from our room, bathroom, and anywhere else that I may see them at night. (I think that this is the most important part for me... Before I would get so would up and frantic about sleep that even when DD fell asleep I couldn't. I would start a frenzy of a countdown: "Must fall asleep now! She'll be awake within the hour! Hurry! Sleep!" Needless to say I couldn't fall asleep that way. Also, without clocks I don't _know_ that I only got 3 hours of sleep so I don't have any idea of how tired I _should_ be (if that makes sense







)
4-DH and I take turns reminding each other that it won't be long before she's a teenager and we can't get her to wake up









Anyway, DD still has tough sleep patterns, but I am MUCH better at optimizing my available sleep times now and it has helped our family quite a bit... Good luck! I'll be sending sleepy energy your way!


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## HGoldie (May 19, 2009)

I truly feel for you. What has your doctor said? Have you made sure there isn't any underlying health issue causing this? My daughter is 2 and still wakes up 2 - 3 times a night, but this is better than 5 or 6 which was the case until she was 18 months old. Yes..there are days that I haven't been able to speak or concentrate and as though I'm ready to just breakdown. It's so hard deciding what to do when you hear so much from doctors and friends and every child is different. I've heard the book "Super Nanny" is great and touches on this subject. You may want to check that out. As for me, my daughter was diagnosed with Sensory Intergration Disorder and children with this arn't usually good sleepers. The fact that she wakes up for a pedisure drink and we attend to her because we feel she may be hungry is our fault, but she's not a good eater either and eats very little so I feel as though she's hungry and that may not be the case. It may be out of habit now, but I don't know how to determine that so we still have some rough nights.

I sure hope you can start to get some good deep sleep because I know how tough it is on you, your relationship and also your little one as well and I'd hate to see you go through it anymore than you have. It is a terrible feeling and way to live. Good luck to you!


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## walkingmama (Apr 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heidib24* 
But, I was like you- something had to change! I started to focus on _my_ sleep and here is what is working well, not perfectly, but well for us.

I second this!
I also have a tricky sleeper at 5.5. months. I just keep trying different things to try to get him sleeping better, but in the meantime, it has helped to make sure I am catching up during the day.
> I make myself take one big nap when he's napping (also noticed babe sleeps longer in general with me there).
> At night, I spend some alone time with hubby (helps to feel more sane).
> Also, I delegated bedtime duties to my spouse. I nurse babe and start bouncing, then do a hand-off. Initially there may have been baby grumbles, but now its fine. My babe seems to fight me more for some reason. And most importantly, I get a break before starting "night duty". Sharing the load made me feel tons better.

Again -- Good Luck! And wishing you a couple hours of sleep soon.


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## MsZelda (Jan 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heidib24* 
Hey, I skipped some of the earlier posts here so just jump ahead if you have already hear this... I wanted to chime in a few things that have worked at our house.

DD is 6.5 months old and a "tricky: sleeper... A month or so ago I was really struggling. I finally went on a walk on my own and came to the conclusion that I can't make her sleep or change her sleep patterns, I can only provide her a safe and loving atmosphere to create healthy sleep herself. But, I was like you- something had to change! I started to focus on _my_ sleep and here is what is working well, not perfectly, but well for us.

When she falls asleep for the night,
1- I take half a glass of water with 5 drops of rescue remedy and a calcium supplement.
2- DH and I take 20 minutes together, no matter how late it is to talk, watch a few minutes of a movie, just sit on the couch, whatever.
3- I have removed all clocks from our room, bathroom, and anywhere else that I may see them at night. (I think that this is the most important part for me... Before I would get so would up and frantic about sleep that even when DD fell asleep I couldn't. I would start a frenzy of a countdown: "Must fall asleep now! She'll be awake within the hour! Hurry! Sleep!" Needless to say I couldn't fall asleep that way. Also, without clocks I don't _know_ that I only got 3 hours of sleep so I don't have any idea of how tired I _should_ be (if that makes sense







)
4-DH and I take turns reminding each other that it won't be long before she's a teenager and we can't get her to wake up









Anyway, DD still has tough sleep patterns, but I am MUCH better at optimizing my available sleep times now and it has helped our family quite a bit... Good luck! I'll be sending sleepy energy your way!

I think this is great advice - sort of like that old adage of accepting the things you cannot change, changing the things you can, and having the wisdom to know the difference. Thanks for reminding me!


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## BMG580 (Jun 19, 2007)

My DD was super high needs in regards to sleep. I'll be honest and say I haven't read every single post in this thread so I hope I am not repeating anyone. My DD was a better sleeper NOT sleeping with us or even in the same room. Around 6 months I began transitioning her to a crib for naps and that made a huge difference. Some light, soft relaxing music also drowned out other household noises that had previously been waking her up. I also had to strip her crib totally down and only put her in it with a sleep sack on - no toys, no mobile, NOTHING. Everything was a distraction to her and would keep her from falling asleep and staying asleep. She was also very dependent on nursing to sleep, which was fine. The far, far, far and away biggest thing that made an improvement in her sleep was routine, routine, routine. If your baby is rubbing his eyes throughout the day, he is overtired. If you feel poor due to the lack of sleep, so does he. I would literally sit in a chair in her room and nurse her on each breast in the same order, I would say the exact same words, play the exact same music, recite Goodnight Moon and sing You Are My Sunshine as she was falling asleep. I mean, everything had to be exactly the same, and as that routine began to cue her it was time for sleep her naps began to get more ordered and into an actual "schedule" which she set herself. It was like she needed me to help her get some daily rhythm which I had failed to do the first 6 months.

So, my suggestions are to consider that maybe he will do better NOT co-sleeping. Consider anything visual or audible that could be distracting him and take them out. And consider a very, very specific routine.

Best wishes, I know how tired you are! And I saw that you said you are considering making him an only now that you are experiencing such a difficult time and we talked about that too in the thick of sleep deprivation with my DD. We were prepared to go through the same thing with my DS and he is such a different sleeper. He has always gone down easily and slept well, we feel like we hit the lotto or something!


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## meganmommyof5 (May 14, 2009)

Valerian tincture may work. And frankly, if you've tried everything that everyone has mentioned except CIO - well, that may what works. Of course, it's always up to you as far as what you can live with. Having been seriously sleep-deprived in the past, I found that I am a much better mom when I am rested, and my children are much better kids when they are rested.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meganmommyof5* 
Valerian tincture may work. And frankly, if you've tried everything that everyone has mentioned except CIO - well, that may what works. Of course, it's always up to you as far as what you can live with. Having been seriously sleep-deprived in the past, I found that I am a much better mom when I am rested, and my children are much better kids when they are rested.

what is valerian tincture?

I'm positive CIO wouldn't even work.


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## VeganCupcake (Jun 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
I'm positive CIO wouldn't even work.









Valerian is an herb that is used to help with sleep problems in adults. I wonder if it would be safe for a baby.

I have one of those sensitive, persistent little ones, and I am positive CIO won't work for her, either--one more reason not to even consider it.









My DD is just a few weeks younger than yours, so I'm here with you. We have good days and bad, but we will get through this, even if it is just one day at a time.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

We had yet another night of 10+ wakings, and up this morning at 5 AM!! Oh, and he wouldn't go to sleep last night until 9 PM!! That is only 8 hours of BROKEN SLEEP!

I will look up Valerian tincture and see what I can find on it. Maybe I need to find a holistic ped (do those exist??). I posted another thread on seeing a sleep specialist. I dont even know of any in my area, or if they'd be able to help or just tell me to let him CIO. WHY isn't there more support and more answers for babies who don't sleep!? WHY is it always assumed that they don't sleep because they are being manipulative and need to CIO?







:

This is a serious problem. It is deeply affecting our family and our quality of life. There HAS TO BE an answer other than to let him CIO.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

I looked up valerian, and it seems to be something that may give us a couple good nights, but def not a longterm fix....

Quote:

Prolonged use of valerian results in tolerance, and increasing the dose may have serious side effects. According to some researchers, long-term use of valerian may cause psychological depression, damage to the liver, or damage to the central nervous system.


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## SeekingJoy (Apr 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
We had yet another night of 10+ wakings, and up this morning at 5 AM!! Oh, and he wouldn't go to sleep last night until 9 PM!! That is only 8 hours of BROKEN SLEEP!

That actually makes sense. It is miserable, and lots of us mama of spirited/sleep fighters have been there, but it makes sense. Being overtired leads to high cortisol while sleeping, which means broken sleep and early rising.

The real question is: How was yesterday different? Or has he been in a string of bad nights? What could be his triggers? Too much activity? You or DH stressed? A delayed or missing nap? Did life happen and bedtime was pushed back 15 mins? Most kids can take it in stride. There are others who temperament just does let them.

I found that what ever trajectory we were moving on, DS would keep moving in that extreme. Bad sleep progressed to worse sleep. Good sleeping helped him get better and better rest. Most kids sef-correct (i.e. collapse when exhausted). Then there are the different ones.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
I dont even know of any in my area, or if they'd be able to help or just tell me to let him CIO. WHY isn't there more support and more answers for babies who don't sleep!? WHY is it always assumed that they don't sleep because they are being manipulative and need to CIO?







:

You can certainly try, but a friend of mine did. He told her some kids are just this way, there was nothing physiologically wrong, and that she could let her CIO if she needed a change. No other suggestions were given. There wasn't any medication that he knew of or could recommend.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
This is a serious problem. It is deeply affecting our family and our quality of life. There HAS TO BE an answer other than to let him CIO.

I can certainly relate to this desire.







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
I looked up valerian, and it seems to be something that may give us a couple good nights, but def not a longterm fix....

Yikes! These side effects sound scary.


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## meganmommyof5 (May 14, 2009)

We have a SN DD with serious neurological issues. Not sleeping was a major problem for us. Her neuro prescribed Clonidine, which is an anti-hypertensive that is also commonly used for sleep disorders in children. If your child is physiologically normal, I don't know whether your doc would prescribe it or not - but it was a life saver for us.


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## meganmommyof5 (May 14, 2009)

Oh, just another quick thought - if you want a doctor to take it seriously, try CIO - just for a day, so that you can honestly tell them you tried and it doesn't work. Telling most docs that you're disregarding their advice because you "know it won't work" undermines the doctor/parent relationship. Trust me on this, I've dealt with more doctors than you could shake a stick at.


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## henny penny (Mar 26, 2008)

I just want to offer hugs, mama. I didn't read all the responses but scanned through and read yours and some made me want to cry remembering our similar experiences with ds. It is so hard and traumatic. Sleep deprivation is damaging for everyone. Don't know what I can offer other than hope. Ds was the worst at about 8-10 months. I was desperate. Then he nightweaned himself (at 10m) after a stomach bug left him so tired he slept through the night for two nights. It's been slowly getting better since and now at 19 months he only wakes 1-2times a night. HOPE!!!
One BIG improvement we made was to sidecar his crib to our bed (at about 10m). He was close but our movement didn't disturb him and he seemed to like stretching out in his own space, but still close to mama. We didn't CIO at all.
Good Luck!
eta: Another lifesaver was dh would take over baby duty on the weekend mornings so I could sleep in for 2-3 hours. Bliss!


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## mckennasmomma (Sep 29, 2008)

i know you are feeling desperate but i would NOT try either that valerian or cio...both have serious side effects.

you could look for a naturopathic doctor. may not be a ped but still may have some ideas. here is one place to look for one: http://heartspring.net/naturopathic_directory.html


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## VeganCupcake (Jun 13, 2007)

I also have to respectfully disagree that you should try CIO in order to appease a doctor. It is a medical professional's prerogative to be insulted or put off by what you do or don't do, and really, you have no control over his/her feelings. As the parent, _you are the expert on the subject of your child and your family_, so if you say CIO won't work, or that it doesn't suit you philosophically, then *end of discussion*, thankyouverymuch medical professional, and let us move on to discuss *medical* issues related to night waking.

I was also thinking of Dr. Sears' list of possible causes of extreme night waking and wondering if any of these slightly more unusual ones might apply to your little guy:

sensitivity to polyester or other irritating sleepwear
nasal allergies to dust, lint, pollen, perfume, etc.
UTI
anemia
too hot
too cold


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

I've been following this post for a while, although I haven't read all the responses. My 2yo was very similar to yours, woke every 30 min or so most nights until he was 18 mo. He cried, couldn't go back to sleep even from nursing, would wake at the sound of the fan coming on, etc. We were also desperate, although I was the only one sleep deprived because my husband left the bedroom at about 3 months. I'm sure I had PPD, but never went to see anyone because I didn't even want to chance a therapist telling me to CIO (shows you how irrational I was). I'll send some hugs your way; I know how horrible this can be and how resentful and angry you can get towards your little one/partner/yourself/life in general.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned: if you're CDing, the feeling of needing to pee could be enough to keep him from going back to sleep or enough to wake him up in light sleep. We did conventional PLing with my son and he's not night trained yet, but he still wakes up to pee about twice a night. At that age, he would wake, nurse, pee, get changed, nurse to sleep. If he nursed all night long like yours, it would be a vicious cycle of nursing and peeing all night long! We eventually did a wool pad under a him with a cloth diaper, no cover and changed him as soon as I knew he was wet. I guess they're supposed to "get used to" the feeling, but mine never did. I'm not saying it's a cure-all, but maybe something to consider.

I eventually figured that my son was not a sleeper, although I also did consider seeing a sleep specialist. Please keep us posted on how it goes if you go that route.

-

Leah, mom to Andrew 3/31/07 and Jane, 3/1/09. AP, BF, BW, CD, EC


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SeekingJoy* 
That actually makes sense. It is miserable, and lots of us mama of spirited/sleep fighters have been there, but it makes sense. Being overtired leads to high cortisol while sleeping, which means broken sleep and early rising.

The real question is: How was yesterday different? Or has he been in a string of bad nights? What could be his triggers? Too much activity? You or DH stressed? A delayed or missing nap? Did life happen and bedtime was pushed back 15 mins? Most kids can take it in stride. There are others who temperament just does let them.

Yesterday wasn't too different. He was incredibly grumpy most of the day, though, but I made sure he had good naps. But, Aaron's Dad came over in the evening, and maybe that was enough to make him too overstimulated? He did bad Monday night too, though. And there was nothing that I know of that could've caused it.... *sigh*


----------



## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *henny penny* 
I just want to offer hugs, mama. I didn't read all the responses but scanned through and read yours and some made me want to cry remembering our similar experiences with ds. It is so hard and traumatic. Sleep deprivation is damaging for everyone. Don't know what I can offer other than hope. Ds was the worst at about 8-10 months. I was desperate. Then he nightweaned himself (at 10m) after a stomach bug left him so tired he slept through the night for two nights. It's been slowly getting better since and now at 19 months he only wakes 1-2times a night. HOPE!!!
One BIG improvement we made was to sidecar his crib to our bed (at about 10m). He was close but our movement didn't disturb him and he seemed to like stretching out in his own space, but still close to mama. We didn't CIO at all.
Good Luck!
eta: Another lifesaver was dh would take over baby duty on the weekend mornings so I could sleep in for 2-3 hours. Bliss!


It is actually nice to hear that 8-11 months was the worst. Cuz so far that has been the case for us, and I'm hoping that once 11-12 months hit, he will start sleeping a little better!

I have been considering putting his mattress on the floor in our room, also trying to convince DH to get us a King bed. I feel like one of those may help us some....









DH does take Liam out on the weekends for a couple hours in the morning and lets me sleep in. It is amazing.


----------



## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mckennasmomma* 
i know you are feeling desperate but i would NOT try either that valerian or cio...both have serious side effects.

you could look for a naturopathic doctor. may not be a ped but still may have some ideas. here is one place to look for one: http://heartspring.net/naturopathic_directory.html

Thank you for that link!


----------



## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VeganCupcake* 
I also have to respectfully disagree that you should try CIO in order to appease a doctor. It is a medical professional's prerogative to be insulted or put off by what you do or don't do, and really, you have no control over his/her feelings. As the parent, _you are the expert on the subject of your child and your family_, so if you say CIO won't work, or that it doesn't suit you philosophically, then *end of discussion*, thankyouverymuch medical professional, and let us move on to discuss *medical* issues related to night waking.

I was also thinking of Dr. Sears' list of possible causes of extreme night waking and wondering if any of these slightly more unusual ones might apply to your little guy:

sensitivity to polyester or other irritating sleepwear
nasal allergies to dust, lint, pollen, perfume, etc.
UTI
anemia
too hot
too cold


He is definitely more sensitive than most to his sleeping conditions. We've tried sleeping him in just a diaper, as well as a diaper and cotton t-shirt. He does best in the diaper and t-shirt. He gets too hot a lot, so we got a fan and a new comforter.







He does have nasal allergies to dust. I need to clean our room again....


----------



## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SactoMommy* 
I've been following this post for a while, although I haven't read all the responses. My 2yo was very similar to yours, woke every 30 min or so most nights until he was 18 mo. He cried, couldn't go back to sleep even from nursing, would wake at the sound of the fan coming on, etc. We were also desperate, although I was the only one sleep deprived because my husband left the bedroom at about 3 months. I'm sure I had PPD, but never went to see anyone because I didn't even want to chance a therapist telling me to CIO (shows you how irrational I was). I'll send some hugs your way; I know how horrible this can be and how resentful and angry you can get towards your little one/partner/yourself/life in general.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned: if you're CDing, the feeling of needing to pee could be enough to keep him from going back to sleep or enough to wake him up in light sleep. We did conventional PLing with my son and he's not night trained yet, but he still wakes up to pee about twice a night. At that age, he would wake, nurse, pee, get changed, nurse to sleep. If he nursed all night long like yours, it would be a vicious cycle of nursing and peeing all night long! We eventually did a wool pad under a him with a cloth diaper, no cover and changed him as soon as I knew he was wet. I guess they're supposed to "get used to" the feeling, but mine never did. I'm not saying it's a cure-all, but maybe something to consider.

I eventually figured that my son was not a sleeper, although I also did consider seeing a sleep specialist. Please keep us posted on how it goes if you go that route.

-

Leah, mom to Andrew 3/31/07 and Jane, 3/1/09. AP, BF, BW, CD, EC


Thanks for this. We actually use sposies (the ONE thing about parenting Liam that is convenient.. we tried CD for a week and I just couldn't handle it) but I have thought that it was probably a vicious cycle of nursing/peeing/etc cuz he wakes up with a soaking wet diaper in the mornings!


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Thank you everyone for your continued support, advice, and responses.







: It is so wonderful to have somewhere to go and talk with moms who have BTDT, and can offer sympathy and advice and just to let me ramble if I need to.







You all have been amazing!

This morning we got a nice long 2-hour nap!







: We slept together, so I know he woke up a few times during the nap, but went right back to sleep and didn't disturb me much, which was great. Then we headed to my grandma's for the afternoon and swam for a few hours. Liam loved the water, and had a great time. He was really happy today, which is the first in a week or two! He did miss his afternoon nap, though, but is asleep now and I think he is out for the night.







:

After reading more of people's responses, and in my other thread, I am thinking I will not go see a sleep specialist. It seems there is just no research/support for infants who DON'T sleep. Only CIO advice. So it seems it will be something we will have to work through on our own. Right now he is cruising/pulling up and trying to walk, so I think that may have something to do with it. I really think he is a smart smart boy, and his brain just works overtime, and he just has such a hard time sleeping because his brain won't shut off. I will just have to keep doing what I can to help him sleep, and get as much sleep as I can myself. It has to get better at some point, right? I just keep praying everyday that God will give me the strength to get through the day, and so far He has been faithful and has gotten me through. It has been so hard, but I know these times are fleeting and soon I will look back and won't remember all of these sleepless nights and I will miss snuggling with my (not so) tiny baby at night.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

So, as you know we had blood tests done for allergies, and the results are more frustrating than helpful. He tested only slightly positive for soy (a .8 on a 100 scale) and scallops. Nothing for dairy or wheat. I talked with his ped, she said that these are not gut (GI) allergies, and that there are no tests for gut allergies.

So I feel like we are back to square one. Also, he doesn't have any SCREAMING allergy signs as of right now (and I haven't been following any ED this past week or two) other than his sleeping. No rashes, diahrea, etc. He's just fussy and doesn't sleep.

UGH.





















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## mckennasmomma (Sep 29, 2008)

I know it is frustrating to not be able to "name" what is wrong, but I think you should look at this as good news. Your baby is not in pain and will not have to deal with food allergies and you can go back to eating a normal diet! (unless of course when you do that he starts to show signs of food allergies...)

BTW did you get my pm about the naturopath in my town? She might be able to help you with the melatonin idea...


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mckennasmomma* 
I know it is frustrating to not be able to "name" what is wrong, but I think you should look at this as good news. Your baby is not in pain and will not have to deal with food allergies and you can go back to eating a normal diet! (unless of course when you do that he starts to show signs of food allergies...)

BTW did you get my pm about the naturopath in my town? She might be able to help you with the melatonin idea...

Well I don't know that he is not in pain... his belly may still be reacting to things, and that won't show up on the tests... ughhh.

You can actually get melatonin at the grocery store.. I saw it there the other day.... so if I do decide to go that route I will speak with the naturopath you suggested to find out how much, etc..... but I am kind of using that as a last resort right now....


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## SeekingJoy (Apr 30, 2007)

I was one of those who earlier in the thread shared our experience with melatonin and our decision to delay use until toddlerhood.

That said, here is some research on its use in infants as young as 6 months.
http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/melinchilwsl.html

There is also a thread in the special needs forum of MDC with some great links. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=815101

I am so sorry you are going through this.


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## justice'smom (Jun 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyCatherine185* 
We had yet another night of 10+ wakings, and up this morning at 5 AM!! Oh, and he wouldn't go to sleep last night until 9 PM!! That is only 8 hours of BROKEN SLEEP!

I will look up Valerian tincture and see what I can find on it. Maybe I need to find a holistic ped (do those exist??). I posted another thread on seeing a sleep specialist. I dont even know of any in my area, or if they'd be able to help or just tell me to let him CIO. WHY isn't there more support and more answers for babies who don't sleep!? WHY is it always assumed that they don't sleep because they are being manipulative and need to CIO?







:

This is a serious problem. It is deeply affecting our family and our quality of life. There HAS TO BE an answer other than to let him CIO.

I know all to well what your going through. I went through the same thing with my now 3 yr old. He had reflux and dairy allergies until he was 9 months old. Well, still has the dairy allergy, but reflux gone at 9 months. At 5 months he was getting such little sleep that he actually started having tremours that I thought were seizures. At that point I let him stay latched on and nurse all night long. That worked until he was probably 8 months old and then like your baby he started waking every hour or so and screaming out. I also do not like cio and so I went to the library and got every baby sleep book that was anti-cio and started reading. I then prayed for guidance and this is what we did. I will say there was crying involved because he wasn't getting what he wanted, but he was in no way scared. Okay, I'll explain it all so it makes more sense. I put my now 5 yr old in the room with dh and turned on a white noise machine very loud for them. I then put a mattress in the room where I wanted ds to sleep. We also had a white noise machine going in that room. At the time I wanted him to go to sleep I would do a routine which for us was putting on jammies, singing a song, and praying. I would then nurse him and lay him down in his crib. As he would stand up I would lay him back down and say night night. It took quite some time, but once he would lay down and stay down I would rub either his back or belly depending on which way he was laying in large circles. He did cry during the process. Then once he would wake up the process would start again. The first two nights I did let him nurse otherwise you get engorged. Nap time I did the same thing, but never did it for more than an hour and if he didn't go to sleep, I just didn't bother after an hour. I was most concerned at first about night time sleep. I also always let him come to bed with me when he woke about an hour or so before the family got up. That way he still got snuggle time with mommy. That was something he actually weaned himself from. A few of the most important things are if you start getting aggraviated to the point you think you are going to hurt your baby, you need to leave the room and cool off. Wheather that means someone else takes over or you just leave baby until you calm down. That part I hated, but my dh wouldn't help me and I knew if I didn't leave I was going to lose it. I think the most important thing also was to keep a journal. If it would not have been for that journal I would never have seen the progress. It was little at first, but it was there. I would write down when you first started the process, when baby went to sleep, when baby woke and so on. It took us a few weeks if not a month, but for me it was so much better than cio. After the entire process of me staying consistent it worked and he has been sleeping through the night for quite some time now and taking naps too. He only wakes when he has night terrors







or has had dairy to eat. I will say my opinion is that babies with reflux learn to wake frequently due to the pain and you have to gently help them learn to sleep again. We now see a kinesologist that has helped with the night terrors and had I known him then I would have probably started there. Hopefully I haven't left anything out of what we did. My son was a hard case and it worked for him and we tryed EVERYTHING. Let me know if you do try it and if it works for your baby. I would not try cio and don't feel what I did was cio. Even in Dr. Sears book he says when a parent is there gently helping the child to sleep it's not cio. Good luck


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## lnitti (Jun 14, 2004)

at 9 months, my kids gave me great difficulty with sleep. naps were short 20-45 minutes twice a day, and bed time was awful. Transitioning to 1 nap a day yielded 1 long nap, and bed time became easier. Both transition around 9-10 month to 1 nap right after lunch and an early bedtime (7-7:30 and sometimes occasionally earlier until they got a few months older)

Now my 21 month old is still a horrible sleeper, but for different reasons now. She naps great at daycare, but only sometimes will nap at home. Bed time is awful, and she also wakes a million times at night. I am hoping with time that it will get better. But we went through plenty of nights with her waking every 45 minutes to an hour, so I know how you feel. Most nights even now, she is up 4-6 times per night. We've had a couple nights recently where she was only up 3 times and it was heaven!


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Well, I just got home last night from our week vacation with family. As you know I was REALLY worried about Liam sleeping while we are there, as we would not have our rocking chair! Well, HE DID GREAT!







: He actually slept BETTER than EVER!

We came up with a routine of me nursing him in bed, and then DH held him and walked him around the room. IT WORKED! And, we are actually planning to start using that routine instead of the rocking from now on!

Also, he took his first steps!!! 6 in a row!!!!







:


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## SeekingJoy (Apr 30, 2007)

Wonderful!


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