# [email protected] folks ... is any birth control acceptable to you?



## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

On the heels of the "pro-lifers/why it's a baby" thread, I must ask ...

Is there any birth control you find acceptable?

Should use of an IUD be grounds for murder charges? Or a "morning after" pill?

Should someone with repeated miscarriages be investigated for possible conspiracy to commit murder?

Do you believe that abortion might be an acceptable choice in cases of rape or incest? And how can that coexist with the innocent [email protected] concept?

I am not asking these questions to start a snarling match, nor to get flamed from either side. Am honestly trying to understand this ... because it is truly difficult for me to understand.

If the mods think this is inappropriate, I understand, though I've tried to phrase this as openly possible and without any intent to start a war ... really ...


----------



## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

delete. wrong forum.


----------



## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Dado--- You really think there wasn't enough on the plate already?







:LOL


----------



## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

you're right, i deleted it. not really the right forum anyway. sorry!


----------



## ~Jenna~ (Dec 7, 2003)

Okay I will take the risk of getting flamed and answer
*Is there any birth control you find acceptable?*
Not to me...I can except NFP, which could be or could not be considered birth control by some people

*Should use of an IUD be grounds for murder charges? Or a "morning after" pill?
Should someone with repeated miscarriages be investigated for possible conspiracy to commit murder?*
Are you serious about these questions or are you just being snarky







: ? I think the question about miscarriages is extremely insensitive though. If you are serious - no I don't think they are grounds for murder charges, but I don't agree with the morning after pill.

*Do you believe that abortion might be an acceptable choice in cases of rape or incest? And how can that coexist with the innocent [email protected] concept?*
I know this is not a popular answer, but it's how I feel - no to me it is not acceptable, sorry. I mean, I guess if the woman would rather kill herself then maybe I could see her getting an abortion.


----------



## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by ~Jenna~_
*I think the question about miscarriages is extremely insensitive though.*
it is a delicate question, but i think it is a fair one. if you like, put it another way: if a woman knows ahead of time that she has a very high chance of miscarrying, should she risk pregnancy if she genuinely believes a foetus is a full human at conception?

what his her moral culpability if she does proceed and the child does, as expected, die?


----------



## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

I was on the pill for a number of years. My understanding at the time was that it prevented ovulation, not implantation, as I've heard recently. So I was okay with it then.

We have used condoms, withdrawal, abstinence. Dh has had a vasectomy, so we will be okay once he gets the all clear.

I am well aware that most of these choices are not in agreement with my church's teachings, but they prevent conception, not implantation. Also, if we did have a third child, we would have to stop fostering (lack of room), and I think I'm doing way more good fostering needy kids than having a third myself.

Birth control I find acceptable - my second paragraph. Not sure about the bc aspect of the pill any more.

Miscarriages - no.

I have a really hard time with the rape/incest option. Personally, I would still continue a pregnancy, but I can't make that decision for others.

HTH


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I have often wondered about how [email protected] relates to the IUD, which I think works by allowing conception but making the uterus seem unfit for life.

Isn't that how it works?

If so, I wonder why the IUD isn't the biggest issue for life at conception folks.

As far as opposing abortion AND any form of birth control&#8230;well&#8230;that's just unrealistic for lack of a better word that is also not totally rude.


----------



## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

If so, I wonder why the IUD isn't the biggest issue for life at conception folks.
Just wanted to point out that the Minera (sp) IUD does work differently.

I am adamantly pro-choice, but pro-life for myself. I could not reconcile the use of an IUD with this, though. Minera releases the same hormone as the mini-pill but in much smaller doses, so not only are you not implanting, you are not ovulating. With both Minera and "the shot" if you are annovulatory and *then* have a period it *probably* means that you actually did ovulate that cycle, but did not concieve (obviously). That said, DH is getting cut next month--- mostly full proof. If God decides to bless us w/another we'll be happy w/that too (esp if I don't have the depression issues that have caused us to decide 2 is enough biologically). But, the action of the IUD is also supposed to lessen (severely) the likelihood of (WHY IS THE WORD ESCAPING ME) fertilization.

*That* said, yes the IUD and other birth control that does not prevent fertilization *should* be a huge issue with the pro-life movement. As should invitro fertilization. But, honestly it won't become until we are a bit further down the slipperly slope of removing reproductive rights.


----------



## ~Jenna~ (Dec 7, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by IdentityCrisisMama_
*As far as opposing abortion AND any form of birth control&#8230;well&#8230;that's just unrealistic for lack of a better word that is also not totally rude.







*
I agree with this - I'm not against ALL types of birthcontrol...i have no problems with people using condoms, withdrawl method or surgical bc like vasectomies.

Now I don't know if this sounds silly, or if it's just an urban legend...but my mom told me the other day that our bodies don't fully process all the hormones in the Pill and so some of it gets into the water system when you pee and there is no way to get those hormones out of the water system...and it is affecting other people's fertility because of it. IF this is true then I have a huge problem with it.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

We posted at the same time, Irishmommy. How can you say for sure that you would go through with a pregnancy after a rape?

My two friends were raped and they had drastically different reactions that could not have been anticipated. Both took YEARS to overcome the trauma. Not a good time to bring a baby into the world, IMO.

Now it sounds like I'm trying to say that no one should have baby that was the product of rape. I'm not. I'm just saying that I'm surprised that anyone could know what they would do if it hadn't happened to them, kwim?

This is OT, but don't they usually give women a morning after pill during the examination after reporting a rape?


----------



## ~Jenna~ (Dec 7, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by IdentityCrisisMama_
*We posted at the same time, Irishmommy. How can you say for sure that you would go through with a pregnancy after a rape?*
I know this question was not asked of me, but I think you *can* know this if you are extremely pro-life, JMHO. I'm not saying every anti-abortion person should keep a pregnancy that was from a rape, but I think you can know yourself well enough to know what you will do.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by TiredX2_
**That* said, yes the IUD and other birth control that does not prevent fertilization *should* be a huge issue with the pro-life movement. As should invitro fertilization. But, honestly it won't become until we are a bit further down the slipperly slope of removing reproductive rights.*
I am kind of a "greatest good" type of thinker and I can't imagine why the [email protected] conception people don't shift toward encouraging a different type of birth control rather then focusing on abortion.

The number of "lives" they would be saving by just reducing a small number of the type of birth control that allows fertilization would be huge compared to the current antiabortion movement.

Personally, I wonder if it isn't because the [email protected] belief is not somewhat of a fallacy for some.


----------



## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by ~Jenna~_
*...our bodies don't fully process all the hormones in the Pill and so some of it gets into the water system when you pee and there is no way to get those hormones out of the water system..*
yep, it's true...



*Quote:*

and it is affecting other people's fertility because of it.
...but the effects aren't clear.

however the issue isn't limited to BC pills. the water supply is turning into a real chemical soup from all manner of drugs being partially ingested by humans and factory farmed animals. ie, there are now measurable levels of Prozac and various antibiotics in certain bodies of water.

google will turn up lots of links, here's one...

http://eces.org/articles/000238.php


----------



## Els' 3 Ones (Nov 19, 2001)

After insest?

So, a 13yo that has been raped continuously by a brother or father should be made to bear this child?


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by ~Jenna~_
*but I think you can know yourself well enough to know what you will do.*
Yea, I guess so. I just feel like to say so is sort of trivializing the huge trama that some women feel after a rape. Some women are not only emotionally damaged but hugely physically damaged as well.

This was the case for my two friends. It shook their very foundations. It made them question EVERYTHING!


----------



## ~Jenna~ (Dec 7, 2003)

Thanks dado! Hmm...I wonder if I should be grateful that we have well water?

On the incest front - this is such a hard question for me. I mean in the example of the 13yo...that really really sucks for her so I can see how she wouldn't want to have that baby. On the other side of that...it's not the baby's fault. So I'm really torn on this issue.


----------



## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

IdentityCrisisMama, I just know myself well enough to know I would not end a pregnancy caused by rape. Whether I relinquished the child to adoption, I don't know, but it would be born.


----------



## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

there are now measurable levels of Prozac and various antibiotics in certain bodies of water.
hmmm, gotta get me some of *that* water


----------



## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

I do not think anyone "knows" what they would do if they were raped.

And I hope to Goddess no one here ever has to find out.


----------



## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

I am very prochoice - so I am not really the one to answer the questions, but I thought I would anyway.








It is interesting to me that I am weirded out by the IUD - it just seems wrong somehow.

And I am horribly against hormonoal birth control, as it can have long far reaching effects, that no one knows about.

Condoms are fine - huge hassle, but they work. Diaphragms are good too.

For the sake of your infertile mod's sanity, can we leave assisted reproduction (Iui Ivf etc..) out of this conversation?


----------



## ~Jenna~ (Dec 7, 2003)

(((((Adina)))))


----------



## kerikadi (Nov 22, 2001)

As far as birth control I think barrier methods are ok.
*I'm* not ok with RU486, Morning After Pill, Plan B, IUD, or birth control pills.

I don't believe in abortion for rape or incest survivors. Oh, and I have been a victim of rape so I am qualified to answer thhat question.

Keri


----------



## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Have yet to read beyond the first page, will do so in a moment, but would like to post for those who found my reference to miscarriage distasteful ...

I am on my 7th pregnancy. I have 3 children. Two of my miscarriages were at the end of the 1st trimester, one was in the middle of the 2nd.

No offense was intended to anyone here who has suffered through pregnancy loss. As I have.

Am only trying to clarify.

And the IUD question was not to be "snarky," but since the question insists that life begins at conception, and the IUD works by not allowing an already-conceived embryo to implant into the uterus ... it's a fair question.

Will now read the rest of the thread.


----------



## SheBear (Aug 19, 2003)

_"Is there any birth control you find acceptable?_

Personally, no. I find some methods more acceptable than others, such as NFP, or non-spermicidal condoms. To someone who asked my advice, I'd recommend they consider those alternatives first. But for myself, I feel that even those are unneccessary, as I believe that only God opens (or shuts) the womb, and therefore, any child He chooses to bless us with is a child we _need_ to have, LOL! I mean, who's gonna look at a gift from God and say "no thanks!" Not me!







I also firmly believe that if/when God blesses us with children, He will also bless us with the means to adequately provide for them. Might not always be easy, and we'll never be rich, but there will always be a way.

_Should use of an IUD be grounds for murder charges? Or a "morning after" pill?_

I certainly feel (JMHO) that IUDs and morning after pills are wrong, and that they have the ability to cause death where otherwise life would continue. I do not feel that it is my place to recommend murder charges for the use of such contraceptives. And, honestly, I don't know that I would support legislation to that effect. I just don't know. If I knew that someone was using the above methods, I would not feel it was my place to tell them they are wrong, although if it was someone very close to my (like a sister) I might feel more at liberty to share my opinion, solicited or not. OTOH, if someone was in a situation where they were considering these contraceptives, but they were undecided and asked my opinion, I would do all in my power to convince them to not use these, but to find some other alternative.

_Should someone with repeated miscarriages be investigated for possible conspiracy to commit murder?_

Quote:

_Originally posted by dado_
*it is a delicate question, but i think it is a fair one. if you like, put it another way: if a woman knows ahead of time that she has a very high chance of miscarrying, should she risk pregnancy if she genuinely believes a foetus is a full human at conception?

what his her moral culpability if she does proceed and the child does, as expected, die?*
From this logic, _any_ woman who knows that her child is likely to die at some point in the future (um, everyone??) should thus avoid pregnancy.

Miscarriage, by definition, is the unplanned, unintended death of a fetus. Unplanned, unintended death happens all the time, to humans of all ages, and no one is at fault. As I said in the other thread, although my first child lived only a very short time in my womb, it still _lived_ , and then died a natural death. We celebrated that life, and felt grief at the death. Just like the life and death of any other loved one.

_Do you believe that abortion might be an acceptable choice in cases of rape or incest?_

No, I do not think that abortion under ANY circumstances is an acceptable choice. Certainly not for me, although I would treat with compassion anyone who had been forced to make such a hard decision. I feel very strongly that the child resulting from such a traumatic circumstance is still a child who's life has value. And certainly the child did not choose, or cause, the violent nature of his/her conception. It would certainly require much support and love and understanding to help the woman (esp. a 13 year-old victim of incest! My younger foster sister is in this category, and her strength and character amazes me!) thus violated to find healing, but I do not believe that 2 wrongs make a right, even in this instance.

A PP brought up the question "how do you know what you'd do, how you'd feel in such a situation?" IMO, it isn't possible to know, exactly, how I would personally cope. But I do know that all important decisions are made over time, not at the moment of crisis. Thus, everything that you understand and believe and know to be true will shape the person you are and impact the decisions you make in a difficult moment. A rather poor analogy, but the best I can think of at the moment: If you believe that spanking is wrong, and you feel strongly about it, and you have given a great deal of thought to better alternatives, then when your child inevitably pushes you to frustration and anger, you have a much better chance of making it through those crucial moments without striking out. Whereas, if you've never given any thought to what sort of reaction is appropriate, you are quite likely to just hit. And yet, even the most conscientious parents--who strongly believe in gentle discipline--can be pushed to make a poor decision. I'm sure we all know someone who has done so.

_And how can that coexist with the innocent [email protected] concept?_

I'm not sure what this part of the question means.....surely you aren't implying that the child resulting from a horrible situation such as rape or incest is to blame for the trauma? IMO, the child is also a victim of violence. So does this victim--merely because it cannot speak for itself--deserve death? Or does it deserve a chance to live, to overcome the pain and horror that marked the beginning of it's life? To me, the answer is clear.

Or is this a question about original sin? If so, it would require a longer answer, but I'm really not clear on what you are asking.

With respect,

Sarah


----------



## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

But for myself, I feel that even those are unneccessary, as I believe that only God opens (or shuts) the womb, and therefore, any child He chooses to bless us with is a child we need to have, LOL! I mean, who's gonna look at a gift from God and say "no thanks!" Not me!
That's funny because I always felt birth control was "okay" because I *knew* if G-d wanted me to have a child then, I would. I could use every form of birth control out there and if G-d wanted me pg--- I would be. We (DH & I) are always open to another (G-d given) child, but we also have our opinions.


----------



## SheBear (Aug 19, 2003)

I understand what you are saying, TiredX2! And while I agree (Background info on me, I got pregnant while on the pill--and using it carefully--not once, but twice! Miscarriage the first time, my wonderful amazing son the second time.), I guess I tend to focus on the corollary of what you said....that if God does _not_ want us to have a child at a particular time, then we would _not_ get pregnant no matter how often we "practiced"!









I do have to admit that dh is not quite so at ease with this concept as I am....I can totally understand that--I think it is a very difficult thing to relinquish such control. I struggle with it myself at times...have to keep reminding myself that I truly do believe everything will be okay!









So, my point is, my feelings about contraception have obviously changed somewhat over the last couple years (Actually, I've never been completely comfortable with it, but it was a compromise I was willing to make at the time, and together dh and I made that decision. It is no longer a compromise I am willing to make), so I am totally understanding of those who are at a different place. Yikes, I hope that doesn't sound condescending...I honestly don't mean for it to!


----------



## gaffa (Sep 1, 2002)

Quote:

Thanks dado! Hmm...I wonder if I should be grateful that we have well water?
Hate to tell you, what's in well water is likely the same as what's in everything else. Well water recharges with rain and other water sources whcih would carry the same contaminents. That's why it's so frustrating, there is no real escape fromn environmental pollution.


----------



## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

I agree with SheBear 100% and have nothing to add. She said it all.


----------



## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by IdentityCrisisMama_
*...This is OT, but don't they usually give women a morning after pill during the examination after reporting a rape?*
No. I worked at a Domestic Violence and Sexual Assualt education and prevention center for 3 years. We often had a terrible time getting the "morning-after" pill because the only hospital that had SANE (Sexual Assulat Nurse Examiners) nurses in our area was Catholic and their policy was to _not_ offer the "morning after" pills to sexual assault victims. Sometimes we'd luck out and a doctor would slip us the pills but most of the time it didn't work out that way.

So, we had to get our clients to one hosptial, then call a doctor from our carefully culled list of doctors who would prescribe it, get the woman over to see that doctor and _then_ get the pills from the pharmacy.

I'd write more but just thinking about this is giving me a splitting headache...


----------



## Paxetbonum (Jul 16, 2003)

I am against all birth control, but approve of use of NFP for grave reasons (be they physical, emotional, spritiual or financial)

I beleive that sex is about the gift of total self and if we hold back our fertility and view it as a burden to be supressed then we are missing out on the true nature of love.

Someone once said something that I found very profound when applied to sex and contraception.

True love requires sacrifice. True love desires perfect union.

In conrtaception the sacrificial aspect of love seems to be cut out. Love becomes self centered.
Contraception also cuts out perfect union. The spouses withold or supress their fertility from one another. I have never had sex with confoms, IUDs or anything, but to me it seems so disgusting. Barrier methods attempt to put something between spouses to "protect them" from eachother.

No thanks. I don't want to be protected from my partner. He loves me and I love him, why should there be a mistrust there?

No, I don't think that everyone should have ten kids. That's why there's NFP. But honsetly sex speaks a language, a language of total self giving and true union. Anything that changes that language turns it into a lie.

I don't think its cooincidental that the divorce rate among couples who use NFP is three precent.

Sorry if I have offended anyone who uses contraception. These are simply my opinions on the matter.


----------



## kerikadi (Nov 22, 2001)

Paxetbunom,
I love what you wrote and must admit that it makes me sad








that we have to use any kind of bc. We have 4 children. #4 is our NFP baby (technically, _shouldn't_ have happened, of course we are blessed that she did








Though we do everying 'right' including co-sleeping and tendem nursing my fertility returns with lightening speed and I just can't find the personal strength for another child right now.
I know my fertility is a gift from God and I hate that something comes between DH and I








Just wanted to let you know that I hear ya









Keri


----------



## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

sorry, I double posted when I was trying to edit...


----------



## Al Dente (Jan 8, 2004)

I'm so torn on this issue...to be honest, I haven't fully explored it because I'm scared of how my mind might change. I guess I was somewhat naive about what bc pills and barrier methods actually did. This is a pill baby, so I do kind of feel that God will allow it no matter what method I use if it's in his plan.
Honestly, can I just say I'm not ready to explore this issue? Ignorance at this point is bliss. I couldn't handle the knowledge that I chose to get rid of a potential life by the bc method that I used...at least not right now. I'm convicted by this though. I do need to study it.


----------



## Bladestar5 (Jan 5, 2003)

*Is there any birth control you find acceptable?*
We hardly ever get together, because the baby is up so late we are zonked, but when we do it, we use condoms. We are totally not worried about pregnancy. I won't use anything chemical, or physically altering. If dh wants to be snipped, that is HIS choice, although it would bother me.

*Should use of an IUD be grounds for murder charges? Or a "morning after" pill?* Wow, that is a bit extreme, but I would never use those methods.

*Should someone with repeated miscarriages be investigated for possible conspiracy to commit murder?* Sorry, not even gonna comment on that one. Like I said before, that is a bit extreme.

*Do you believe that abortion might be an acceptable choice in cases of rape or incest? And how can that coexist with the innocent [email protected] concept?* Rape, no. I would never personally get an abortion because of rape. The baby is still MINE, and I could never kill MY child. I can understand how some women would feel they wanted an abortion in that case, but I still think it is wrong.
Incest- Yikes, that is a tough one. With all the possibilities of genetic defects...but still, no. Not for me personally. I still think it is wrong, but I wouldn't go and attack someone who had an abortioon. Remember, it is still legal to have abortions at this point.

Just because I feel abortion is wrong, doesn't mean I am going to hurl insults at a woman for it. If a woman has one, though....there are physical consequences and I sure hope a woman does her research.
I wouldn't feel bad for an irresponsible woman who dies from having repeated abortions that she uses as birth control.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Paxetbonum_
*I don't think its cooincidental that the divorce rate among couples who use NFP is three precent.
*
I doubt that it is a coincidence either but not for the reasons you are implying. Correlative not causal - or something like that&#8230;


----------



## arthead (Nov 25, 2003)

Why would god CHOOSE some people to be parents & not choose others? Aren't ALL of God's children (according to religion) equal? I think this is why I truly believe that the higher powers leave many of life's situations up to us to be responsible or proactive in trying to get pg... b'c we are the ones creating our own lives & destinies. & when we bring kids into the world, aren't we responsible for another as well? Plus I think it's a slap in the face to someone who has ttc'd for years to tell them in so many words, "well, God just hasn't CHOSEN you yet" bleh!

Also, about the 13 year old incest/rape case. If she has the baby b'c God put it here, I'm left wondering why on Earth god would want to cause her pain in the first place, then make someone else exist who has a rapist for a daddy & an insecure victimized young girl for a mother? That's way too awful. & the rapist was NOT acting out of love, so it would seem more of an anti-God situation than a God's love situation. I feel that trying to bring too much *belief* into that kind of situation can just make people feel weaker yk? If a rape victim feels good about having the baby, then she should. If a rape victim feels awful about the baby being there, then she shouldn't be "damned" twice by choosing an abortion, in my opinion. Did that make sense? It's hard to explain without stepping on toes. Guess that's really the gyst of why I think To Each His Own is most fair.

I believe that we all have different "god"s or higher powers for a big reason... maybe this is the way it needs to be for each of our differing lives. So we can all live our lives in accordance with what is best for us & our families. The power I believe in gives me strength in knowing that I have full control over choosing when to bring a life into the world, then when my situation is ready for a baby, I surrender that to the higher power. But I can't be comfortable letting ALL of the possiblities up to my god. If so, I could end up with more babies than I can properly care for, & I'm certain that my god doesn't intend for that!


----------



## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by arthead_
*...Plus I think it's a slap in the face to someone who has ttc'd for years to tell them in so many words, "well, God just hasn't CHOSEN you yet"...*
Yes, it does feel like a slap in the face to me. Thank you for saying that and for being sensitive to the issue.


----------



## SheBear (Aug 19, 2003)

Arthead, I started to type a response to your post, then realized that anything more I can say would probably be more appropriate on the Spirituality forum than here. I don't want to break any posting rules.....

I will say this, I certainly didn't intend to hurt any feelings. I will admit that I don't have any personal frame of reference to understand infertility. I try to be sensitive to others, but I fail often, and for that I apologise. I do still believe, very strongly, that God has a purpose, even when we cannot understand it. That belief gives me peace, but I understand how it may be confusing, or feel unfair, to others. So, again, I sincerely apologise for any insensitive remarks I made. All I can say is, it was not intentional.

WRT incest, the only personal experience I have is with my foster sister. She was older than 13, and I do think that makes a difference....I don't know many 13 year olds who are mature enough to contemplate the reality of motherhood, even without the trauma of sexual abuse to deal with. I know that every woman is different, and will feel differently, but for her, the child was a direct part of her healing. For her it was reassuring that something good (have you ever met an evil baby?) could come out of so much hurt. It was the silver lining that she clung to, and she is an awesome mom!

I know that may not be a typical situation, but it is not an isolated reaction, either.

Anyway, like I said, I don't think I can address the "God" issue any more than I have without violating the purpose of this forum.

I'd be happy to discuss my further thoughts privately if you wish.

Blessings,

Sarah


----------



## isleta (Nov 25, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Bladestar5_
*

I wouldn't feel bad for an irresponsible woman who dies from having repeated abortions that she uses as birth control.*
*
*
*







truly cold. Maybe it was the way you worded it. What about forgiveness and non-judgement?

OK Back to the OP. I am pro-choice, but for me I do not use any chemical or alternating drugs. I used condoms and became a mama!







I reaaly have issue with the pill and it's lasting effect on women's bodies.

However, I am not all women so I feel the morning after pill is something that should be available to women, esp. an option after rape/incest. I am glad my rape did not impregnat me because that would be a choice that would be difficult.

I also agree with arthead "to each her own" in this matter. To me it's personal.

I have a child so I don't know what it is like to not have one. So, I second to each her own on this one too!







*


----------



## Bladestar5 (Jan 5, 2003)

I came across as cold, because I believe abortion is wrong. These questions were directed at people who believe life starts at conception.
That being said, if you can't keep it in your danged pants, you should KNOW better than to repeatedly use abortion as birth control. Pro-choice people should even agree there has GOT to be a limit on this.

I am ANTI-ABORTION.


----------



## isleta (Nov 25, 2002)

Bladestar5 I PM'd you-I don't want to be







T

eta-I responded to the contraception question also. Not all pro-choice peope believe that life does not begin at conception.


----------



## Bladestar5 (Jan 5, 2003)

Isleta-Pm'd you back







I guess it did look cold from some people's point of view...It is a very heated topic.


----------



## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Bladestar5_
*...That being said, if you can't keep it in your danged pants, you should KNOW better than to repeatedly use abortion as birth control. Pro-choice people should even agree there has GOT to be a limit on this...*
No, I do not agree. I believe life begins at conception and I am pro-choice. There is no way to keep track of how many abortions a woman has without completely invading her medical privacy.

Pro-choice means that I think women deserve the privacy to make their own choices, whether I agree with those choices or not.


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

I don't believe in abortion for rape or incest survivors. Oh, and I have been a victim of rape so I am qualified to answer thhat question.
Yes, you are qualified to make decisions about your own life. You know best how to handle that experience. But that doesn't mean you automatically know what's best for every rape victim. The experience is different for each woman.

About birth control, it doesn't bother me what anyone else uses. I would never use the IUD because of the implantation issue, but also because the idea of it just scares me! A metal device just hanging around in there?!

I keep hearing different things about the Pill. I can only use the minipill, and with all the different things I hear it sounds like it could potentially prevent implantation of a fertilized egg, but that it would be really rare because an egg most likely would not be released. Not an issue though, because dh is getting a vas after this baby is born and I never have to use bc again!

I would use emergency contraception if I were raped. But no, not all hospitals will give it out. If it didn't "take," I don't know what I would do. I'd like to say I'd have the baby and give it up, assuming I were still married, but I honestly don't know. This one time when I went on this camping trip and got molested in my sleep (this guy thought I was sleeping) I felt sick for weeks and threw out my pajamas. I can't imagine keeping a child when I couldn't stand to be around my clothing. I believe a baby should not be punished for what it's "father" did, but I can't say I know what I'd do.

When I started volunteering at the rape crisis center they asked me if I would be able to work with clients wanting to terminate a pregnancy. I said I would help them find a clinic, but that I could not take them there.


----------



## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by pugmadmama_
*I believe life begins at conception and I am pro-choice.*
put me in the same camp. belief in when life begins and being pro- or anti-choice are orthogonal issues.


----------



## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Dado---

Orthogonal? OMG, that is DH's FAVORITE word. :LOL


----------



## anythingelse (Nov 26, 2001)




----------



## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Mary---










I am fairly certain the OP did not want to hurt you and was, in fact, trying to emphasize how she cannot understand the view.


----------



## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Vanna's Mom_
*ice cold, frosty, offensive posts*
i'm quite sure the poster wasn't suggesting that happen, but in fact to suggest that such an attitude would indeed be "ice cold, frosty, offensive".


----------



## anythingelse (Nov 26, 2001)




----------



## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Vanna's Mom/Mary ... not intending to offend anyone. Was *not* intending to be "ice cold," "frosty," or any such thing. *Was* intending to leave my emotions out of this, and find out bluntly the answer to this not-outlandish question.

Vanna's Mom, I will repeat: _I am on my 7th pregnancy and have 3 children. 2 of my miscarriages occurred at the end of the 1st trimester, and 1 of my miscarriages occured in the middle of the 2nd trimester._

*Okay? Can you understand that I am ultra supersensitive about this, too?*

If you read the thread, you'd know that I posted this information already.

I did not intend to hurt any feelings. I did intend to find out what are the parameters of the "[email protected]" mindset.

It is not out of the realm of possibility, should some legal act declare that human life begins at conception, that miscarriages would become suspect. That is what I was inquiring about.

And for the record, I am very strongly pro-choice. And as to the underlying premise of this thread ... my belief is that whether a fertilized egg is a baby is (IMNSHO) in G!d's realm of understanding, and not mine.


----------



## anythingelse (Nov 26, 2001)

pmed you meryk


----------



## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by pugmadmama_
*There is no way to keep track of how many abortions a woman has without completely invading her medical privacy.*
Your privacy is already invaded once you go into the abortion clinic and sign the papers. Your SS# is reported to the government, your CC# or aba checking account number is available for inspection. You probably use the expense for your medical expenses at tax time on your 1040, keeping the receipts of course.

If you ever do go on and give birth, the abortion is part of your medical history and it goes on the statistical part of the birth certificate which goes to the state. You give this information to your doctor who records it and it is in your records at the hospital and put onto the birth certificate once your child is born.

There are records all over the place for anyone's past abortions.

So much for doctor/patient confidentiality.


----------



## lula (Feb 26, 2003)

Maybe I am entering a topic here that I am in over my head..

I do not see how birth control in general/theory and abortion are linked. To me they are not. I do have a problem with certian types of birth control due to their nature. I do work at educating women about how some IUD's, morning after pills etc work and I think that it would be better for all women everywhere if more details of all types of birth control were opening discussed. I do not run around hitting people over the head with info etc but I do bring it up in conversations concerning abortion etc. I practice methods of birth control and think types of birth control should be accessible to everyone and more research should be done to improve methods etc.

must go daughter waking up....


----------



## Katana (Nov 16, 2002)

I'm answering for myself, not what I think all womankind should do. What anyone else does is there choice, and they have the right to make that choice.

Is there any birth control you find acceptable?

Condoms are acceptable to me, and it's all I've ever used. I personally would never use a bc pill or IUD because of the fertilization that could occur.

Should use of an IUD be grounds for murder charges? Or a "morning after" pill?

No. I would never use either, but don't care what others do.

Should someone with repeated miscarriages be investigated for possible conspiracy to commit murder?

No.

Do you believe that abortion might be an acceptable choice in cases of rape or incest? And how can that coexist with the innocent [email protected] concept?

For me, no. I couldn't do it, no matter what the circumstances of conception.


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

Should someone with repeated miscarriages be investigated for possible conspiracy to commit murder?
Wow, I missed that one! I think women who miscarry are already so consumed with guilt and sadness, wondering if they could have done things differently, that to accuse them of murder is just horrible!


----------



## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*Wow, I missed that one!*
i think there's a whole lot of missing going on here.

it has been argued - by some - that in vitro fertilization - not to mention stem cell research embryo "banking" and etc etc etc - are immoral because a bunch of embryos are created beforehand in full knowledge that most will either die or otherwise be destroyed.

i'm hesitant to go further, that should be enough dots to connect, otherwise maybe this should go to PM.


----------



## Els' 3 Ones (Nov 19, 2001)

That's on the slope ya know..................if abortion was outlawed how in the world could IVF remain legal?

One of the reasons we will not see abortion made ilegal again.

Think about it.

El


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

it has been argued - by some - that in vitro fertilization - not to mention stem cell research embryo "banking" and etc etc etc - are immoral because a bunch of embryos are created beforehand in full knowledge that most will either die or otherwise be destroyed.
I don't know much about IVF, but I thought the mother could decide to have the embryos donated.

Of course, there will still be a lot lost through m/c. But is it really any greater than the m/c rate for the general population? I've heard the general rate is 1 in 4 pregnancies end in m/c, and I also hear that in IVF, it takes an average of 4 tries to get to live birth. It could be the m/c rates for IVF seem higher because IVF pregnancies are followed so closely.

What if a woman who has a high probability of mc-ing tries to conceive? Is that attempted murder? I read that a woman who has had two mc/s for unknown reasons has a 55 to 60% chance of ever having a baby. Does that mean she is taking a 40% chance of committing murder, and should be punished if the 3rd pregnancy ends in mc?

I think that's a dangerous slope to go down, if TTC becomes attempted murder.


----------



## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*What if a woman who has a high probability of mc-ing tries to conceive? Is that attempted murder?*
bingo. personally i *strongly* feel it's a ludicrous idea, unfortunately it is a very very small step from IVF etc postiions already commonly held. this slope gets steep and slippery extremely fast when you start taking the individual's right to make a decision out of the process.


----------



## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

I don't know much about IVF, but I thought the mother could decide to have the embryos donated.
But should they *have* to have their extra embryos donated? And if they did, I'm just assuming there would be WAY more embryos than willing adopters.

Quote:

Of course, there will still be a lot lost through m/c. But is it really any greater than the m/c rate for the general population? I've heard the general rate is 1 in 4 pregnancies end in m/c, and I also hear that in IVF, it takes an average of 4 tries to get to live birth. It could be the m/c rates for IVF seem higher because IVF pregnancies are followed so closely.
But you are usually implanted w/more than one fertilized egg.

Just talking to hear my own voice at this point


----------



## kerikadi (Nov 22, 2001)

For me miscarrying is not an issue because it is abount intent. Women that miscarry had every intention of carrying the baby to term.
Women that have an abortion have every intent to end a life.

It is my belief that you shouldn't fertilize more eggs than you are willing to use meaning implant and intend on carrying. I believe reduction is abortion. If you're not willing to carry 3 babies, don't implant 3 embryos.

I feel all cloning is wrong, using human beings for parts is reprehensible.

Keri


----------



## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

Awwww man you all went there.

As someone in a position to have to think about IVF (i.e. infertile), this is one of those thigns that you don't know until you get there.

No a woman should not HAVE to donate her unused embryos. Those are genetically her children if they take (which they don't always do) and now woman should be forced to give up her children or potential children.

Most doctors will not do more than three per transfer. And honestly it is pretty rare that all three implant, as the reason they usually do three is because the embryos are of poorer quality. Meaning that they probably won't make it.

IVF give the sperm and the egg better odds of meeting. It does not give the woman a better chance of carrying to term, or of the embryos implanting. That is still a big old crap shoot.

As for fertilizing more eggs than you are willing to use - well that is harder. YOu don't have control over how many eggs are retrieved - nor how many actually fertilize. You may produce only 10 eggs, you may produce 20. Of that 20, only 8 may be mature enough to be fertilized, so the doc tries with all 8, and only 2 fertilize. So great you transfer two. But none may fertilize, or only 1 may be mature enough to fertilize and it doesn't. The idea is to up your odds. So you have to shoot high in order to get anything to work with. The kicker is that these women don't concieve easily, some don't carry to term easily...so you have to up the ante in order to get them pregnant. So while only fertilizing as many eggs as you want to use sounds good - it isn't the way it works.

Women don't resort to IVF as a first line thing. They have often tried to concieve for years, some decades, before trying it. It is a cost intensive, intervention intensive, pain intensive procedure, with no guarantee of outcome being a live birth.

It is a tough decision, like all reproductive decisions. And no one, NO ONE, should get to tell me what is right for me - but me.


----------



## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

((((Adina))))


----------



## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Adina


----------



## Els' 3 Ones (Nov 19, 2001)

Adina









I am so sorry. I DID NOT want the discussion to be turned into defending IVF or deliniating it from the discussion................

I had hoped that many who rant for and end to legal abortion would see that this would most likely go along with it.............no one ever thinks about it, imo.

Based on that and other factors, I don't think it will ever happen (criminalizing abortion) and I truly wish to see them focus their efforts elsewhere in the problem.

Please forgive me. I did not want to cause you or anyone else discomfort.

El


----------



## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

No worries - no one offended me.







Fear not.

It is just a very personal subject to me and I tend to get very expansive and a tad, shall we say, bitter, about it. :LOL

SO I jsut wanted to get that out there that there is a difference, an there are other things to conisder when discussing limiting IVF. That's all!


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

What about women who have HIV, who plan to have children? What about women with a high probability of passing on a fatal genetic disorder?

Just got me thinking about that stuff...


----------



## Paxetbonum (Jul 16, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by lula_
*Maybe I am entering a topic here that I am in over my head..

I do not see how birth control in general/theory and abortion are linked. To me they are not. ....*
Birth control has led to more sex outside of marriage. Hey sex without responsibility!

But, oops, condoms break and the pill isn't too reliable so women get pregnant.

"But hey!" they say, " I'm like an undergrad, man! I have a career that I need to have. I need self-fulfillment, not a baby. Besides, the father is long gone."

result: abortion

The link: contraception.


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

Birth control has led to more sex outside of marriage. Hey sex without responsibility!
Have any of you read the book Slut! Growing Up Female with a Bad Reputation by Leora Tanenbaum? She interviews people who went to high school in the 50s, and they say back then, before the Pill and condom distribution, just as many girls had sex and got pregnant at they do today. It was just kept more of a secret back then.

I think even if birth control was not available, people would still have sex outside of marriage. Look at all the people who do! Some people cannot get contraception because they are too young, or cannot afford it and do not qualify for free help, or have too many bad reactions to those available. It doesn't stop them from having sex.


----------



## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Paxetbonum_
*Birth control has led to more sex outside of marriage.*
statistics, please.


----------



## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

A semantics point: Miscarriage is technically known as "spontaneous abortion."








Adina

I am sorry for all the stomachs this thread is churning ... I had meant for the more complicated issues to come out, though, just because those are the parts of the pro-life stance that always confused me thoroughly, and explanations have never been ... well, explanatory.


----------



## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

When I was much younger, I did choose to have an abortion. I will never never never never do that again. I would have dreams about black spirits coming to take me to hell. Still do, sometimes.

FF to last August when I found out I was pg with number five. We were not planning to have five children. I had an IUD removed last April because I didn't agree with the way it prevented pregnancy. I'm a firm believer that a baby created has every right to exist, whether I am "planning" it or not. However, in August, when we found out Adam was on his way, we did discuss abortion. We even went so far as to make the appointment at Planned Parenthood for the RU486 pill. We went. I could not do it. They told me it was time to "pay" for it, and I looked at them and said, "Pay?" and dissolved into tears. The doctors said they could not allow me to take the pill (which was damn fine with me!) because they felt I was not emotionally strong enough to handle it. I told DH I couldn't do it. For the first time in my life, a man I loved and trusted said, "Okay, let's go then."
I left that place feeling ten feet tall and just as happy as a lark. I haven't looked back. I am proud I had the guts to walk away. I love this baby with every inch of my being and am so looking forward to his arrival. I am pro life for myself. I am pro choice for all other women because it is not my place to make their decisions for them. I would never recommend abortion for someone, knowing what I went through and still go through every time I see and hold a newborn. I wonder what that baby I didn't have would've been like.
Some days, it hurts so badly I cry. I also think of the women who would give anything just to have one baby when I am lucky enough to have five. I pray for infertile couples everywhere to have at least a fraction of the gifts I have.

I am a lucky lucky lady...Damn lucky.

After this babe, tho, I'm getting my tubes tied and DH is having a vasectomy. Five is enough.


----------



## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

To answer the original question--it would be logical for people who believe in life @ conception to oppose any form of bc that makes the womb hostile to implantation. I don't understand why most pro-lifers don't even consider it an issue.







: For dh and I, we have chosen to reject all forms of birth control. Some because of the abortifacient nature, but all because we want to be open to life from God, however large or small that will make our family. If (God forbid!) we should face infertility, we would do everything possible to correct it if it was disease related, or a medical problem. But I do think IVF would be out for us. I guess we'd have to research and pray about it. We've not had problems with infertility, so we really haven't thought too much about it.


----------



## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

opps double post, sorry


----------



## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:

Do you believe that abortion might be an acceptable choice in cases of rape or incest?
No, Violence is NEVER the solution to violence.


----------

