# snapping preteen/natural consiquence?/yelling/choices



## cuddleluvinma (Jun 6, 2006)

OK, here is the situation...my dh asks my dd who's wrapper is on the floor. Dd says that it is her ad her friends. Dh says "So, what needs to be done about it being thrown on the floor?" . Dd says that it wasnt thrown on the floor. Dh says it doesn't matter how it got there, that it is hers and it needs to be picked up. Dd mimicks back what he says. Dh then says that he doesn't want to be talked to that way and that if she doesn't pick it up the she will have to deal with the consiquenses. She says "no!" He tells her again that she need s to go to her room. she says no again. dh says that she needs to go to her room and that she can forget about getting to play with her friends for the rest of the day. Dd then get really angry and yells and Dh does the same. this is when I came out and say "whoa guys! Stop. I'm trying to put the baby down for a nap and now he can't because of the yelling." I try and get them to calm down but dh says that I need to be talking to dd instead of him. I say that no one should be yelling. they are sill going at it while I'm trying to say this. I tell dd to go to her room so that she can calm down and so that we can all have a break to think for a minute. I said it in a way that would not be offensive to her. So that she knew that I wasn't just punishing her but just wanted everyone to have a break. She went. I then ask dh to go into the other room so that we can talk about it. He says that he is not the one needing the talk, that dd does. I say that he has always gotten mad at me when I have talked to her first in the past and that I wanted to get the story from him first. He then comes and tells me what happened. I said that nomatter how she is responding that we as parents need to be the example and keep our calm. That yelling back is not the best way to deal with the situation. He is angry that I am lecturing him. I say tha I will talk to her about the way that she responded to him. So I did. She goes down to apoligise. Then I go down after giving them some time. She goes upstairs after alittle while. I tell dh that he still looks angry. He says that he is dissapointed and that he feels bad that she can't go to the sleepover that she was planning on going to. I am quiet. He says that Ineed to support him on the decision though. I say that it would probably be a good thing to not make those kind of decusions when he's angry like that because they are usually too harsh. he says that he would have made the same decision even if he wern't angry and that I need to support his decision. Now, this is where we really disagree. I say to him that I feel that the consiquenses that he gives should be a natural conciquense and that saying that she can't play with her friends because she has an attitude isn't what I consider to be a natural consiquense. dh thinks that it is. He says that if he want her to do something and she says no that he will say no to something the she want to do it. I said that seems like a childish way of dealing with it. he says that I am not dong anything because I don't want to punish her. I say that I don't feel that my job as a parent is to give punishments but to teach an guide her. I think that talking to her about the way that he feels when she reacts to him like that would teach her better than taking privelages away. she is a very emotional girl and does better when other peoples emotions are explained rather than giving consiquinses.
I want ot back dh up. But, I also think that it isn't good to send dd to her room if she doesn't want to go there. I think that suggesting it in a way where she understands that it would be good for the situation for her to go for everyone to be able to calm down is good. I can't tell dh to because he wouldn't and it would just get him more upset. I also don't want him to yell. I don't want her to yell either. But, the thing that he doesn't understand is that she has less selfcontrol than he does (or should have) because he is the adault and she is the child. Also he says that he won't yell if she doesn't yell. I say that it soesn't work that way. We should be the calm and steady even more so when she gets out of control. I don't know what to do.







: Please give me thoughts, input, suggestions on this.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Why didn't he ask her to please pick it up? You have to give a little respect to get some back, kwim?


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

People may disagree with me but here I go.

I don't 'nessesarily' think your DH was out of line. I do think that he acted in haste and anger but obviously it was your daughters responsibility to pick up the trash and refusing to do so shows that she doesn't have the responsibility to attend a sleep over.

She should have thought about that before getting into a yelling match and mimicking her fathers voice in an instigating manner.

Yes your husband should have been the adult and risen above, but you know we all can succumb to the heat of the moment from time to time no matter how old we are.

Your husband doesn't feel bad about the punishment or else he would renig on it, he probably feels bad about the way it was distributed. Understandable.

You may want to try to add a few words to your husbands vocabulary and key your daughter into listening to them.

Instead of saying 'Goto your room now' in a heated voice, it would be better to say 'I am getting heated, it would be better for you to go to your room before you start losing privilages you don't want to lose'

In the heat of the moment it may be hard to remember that, but I would key my daughter in, if I were you, to just listen and walk away from a fruitless argument when given the opportunity unless she feels that continuing the argument is worth losing privilages.

You can't truly change someones personality, but you can try to change the words that come out of your mouth to find better outcomes from certain situations. I am like your husband. The word 'No' sets my teeth on edge. I stop responding to my 4 year old when he says no and mom is around because I recognize that she handles those situations better than I do. Do I accomplish this all the time? No. But I try.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies* 
Why didn't he ask her to please pick it up? You have to give a little respect to get some back, kwim?

He was giving respect, it was in the form of hoping his daughter would make the decision to pick it up before he had to tell her.

Respect comes in different forms.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I think he set the stage for the encounter with his asking her what needs to be done about the wrapper. Why not just ask her to please pick it up from the start? She isn't stupid, I'm sure she knows it belongs in the trash. I think if he improved his attitude towards her he would likely get a better response from her.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
I think he set the stage for the encounter with his asking her what needs to be done about the wrapper. Why not just ask her to please pick it up from the start? She isn't stupid, I'm sure she knows it belongs in the trash. I think if he improved his attitude towards her he would likely get a better response from her.









: It really sounds like he is instigating a power struggle with a child.

Maybe he would benefit from reading, "How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk"....I think I got the title wrong...but it's close.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
I think he set the stage for the encounter with his asking her what needs to be done about the wrapper. Why not just ask her to please pick it up from the start? She isn't stupid, I'm sure she knows it belongs in the trash. I think if he improved his attitude towards her he would likely get a better response from her.

Thats the second person that feels like that... hmmm

Maybe it is time for some introspective seeking.

I've always thought that putting it the way the father did was more respectful than just 'telling' someone to pick something up.

I almost always phrase statements like this in the form of questions when I interact with people.....

Would you as an adult prefer that someone tell you to clean something or would you rather have someone ask, for instance 'did you do the laundry?' (or whatever chore is supposed to be yours) instead of saying 'the laundry isn't done, would you mind doing it?'

Interesting.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
He was giving respect, it was in the form of hoping his daughter would make the decision to pick it up before he had to tell her.

*Respect comes in different forms.*









Respect comes in the form of respect. Nothing about the OP's post was respectful and I am sure the dc knew that, too. When a child is disrespected, they'll throw it right back at you. Children are great mimics. Do unto them as you would have them do unto you.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies* 







Respect comes in the form of respect. Nothing about the OP's post was respectful and I am sure the dc knew that, too. When a child is disrespected, they'll throw it right back at you. Children are great mimics. Do unto them as you would have them do unto you.

Respect comes in many forms.

Obediance
Love
Compliance
Compassion
Compliments
Even if you lose to an adversary (in a competition) you can still Respect their skill.

Respect come in many forms.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
Would you as an adult prefer that someone tell you to clean something or would you rather have someone ask, for instance 'did you do the laundry?' (or whatever chore is supposed to be yours) instead of saying 'the laundry isn't done, would you mind doing it?'

Neither. In fact, I would be quite upset if someone commented on my laundry.

If it's not done, it's not because I didn't notice or are too lazy to get it done.
I would prefer that the other adult would offer to help.


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## ani'smommy (Nov 29, 2005)

I would much much much prefer someone to just ask me "would you please do X for me?" I can't stand the patronizing "what needs to be done with the laundry today?" I really try to be respectful and clear with my dd.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies* 
Neither. In fact, I would be quite upset if someone commented on my laundry.

If it's not done, it's not because I didn't notice or are too lazy to get it done.
I would prefer that the other adult would offer to help.

If it is your chore though, it is your chore. Not looking for mitigating circumstances.

I would love for someone else to come by and offer to build the 3 computers I have to get done by the end of the year, but it is my job to do it so I don't expect anyone to offer.

However if they don't get done I do expect my boss to ask me the reason why. And the users that need them would just be 'without' in the new year.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
If it is your chore though, it is your chore. Not looking for mitigating circumstances.

I would love for someone else to come by and offer to build the 3 computers I have to get done by the end of the year, but it is my job to do it so I don't expect anyone to offer.

However if they don't get done I do expect my boss to ask me the reason why. And the users that need them would just be 'without' in the new year.

Obviously, I do not get paid to wash my own laundry.








Also, if you do not do your work at your job, you will face the natural consequence of losing that job.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies* 
Obviously, I do not get paid to wash my own laundry.








Also, if you do not do your work at your job, you will face the natural consequence of losing that job.

That doesnt respond to anything I said....

That being said, no one said anything about you getting paid to do laundry, just that if it is your chore, it is your chore. The natural consequence of not doing laundry is everyone in the house stinks with no clean clothes. Next natural consequences would be kids being made fun of at school for being smelly and whoever in the household maintains a job would go to work looking unprofessional.

But why are we talking about natural consequences? The question was which way would you prefer it worded if you weren't holding up your end of the responsibilities, and you responded with 'you would want someone else to do them for you' of course, i paraphrased.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
That doesnt respond to anything I said....

That being said, no one said anything about you getting paid to do laundry, just that if it is your chore, it is your chore. The natural consequence of not doing laundry is everyone in the house stinks with no clean clothes. Next natural consequences would be kids being made fun of at school for being smelly and whoever in the household maintains a job would go to work looking unprofessional.

But why are we talking about natural consequences? The question was which way would you prefer it worded if you weren't holding up your end of the responsibilities, and you responded with 'you would want someone else to do them for you' of course, i paraphrased.









You really twist things.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
Thats the second person that feels like that... hmmm

Maybe it is time for some introspective seeking.

I've always thought that putting it the way the father did was more respectful than just 'telling' someone to pick something up.


Well it's effective with small children when you are trying to model natural progression ( like the life cycle of a wrapper,







), but we are talking about a teenager. When someone clearly knows then it's condensending to ask in the manner he did, IMO anyway. And there is nothing wrong with clearly asking your child to do something, please put that in the trash is ok at this house anyway and I don't have attitude issues with my teen. Stating the obvious in the form of a question is not the best way to interact with adults and near adults.

I will say that rereading the OP it sounds like her dh has some sort of power struggle issues because it isn't limited to the dd in the OP.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
Well it's effective with small children when you are trying to model natural progression ( like the life cycle of a wrapper,







), but we are talking about a teenager. When someone clearly knows then it's condensending to ask in the manner he did, IMO anyway. And there is nothing wrong with clearly asking your child to do something, please put that in the trash is ok at this house anyway and I don't have attitude issues with my teen. Stating the obvious in the form of a question is not the best way to interact with adults and near adults.

Hmmm, I'll ask my SO tonight when I get home her opinion. Coz I KNOW I do it to and around her on occasion.

It would be nice to know if I am pissing her off before it turns into a fight.

Much appreciated.


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

To me, it seems like he started the power struggle. I think saying "what needs to be done with the wrapper?" is appropriate to say to a young child. It is thought provoking to a young child. I feel it is patronizing to say that to a teen or adult. The teen obviously knows where it belongs. I prefer to be asked to do something directly. "Can you put your wrapper in the garbage, please?" (with no sarcasm in the voice) As a teen, I would not give attitude to my parents about that. I would just roll my eyes and put it in the garbage. If they asked me where it belonged, I would ask them if they were stupid since they didn't seem to know where garbage belonged.







: Thankfully, I have matured since then.


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## BathrobeGoddess (Nov 19, 2001)

Here is the thing I see. I feel like he was really trying to make a respectful question for something that wasn't really a choice. She needed to pick up her trash and chances are she knew it. What he really should have done was make a statement. I have found that the use of the words "can" and "will" and "would" can lead to just as many power struggles if you really don't mean to ask a question (would/will/can you brush your teeth? ends in my house with a resounding NO!!! from the other party even though its not really a choice for her to do it, it just needs to be done). So I use respectful statements instead. I wonder if that was what he was trying to do??


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
Would you as an adult prefer that someone tell you to clean something or would you rather have someone ask, for instance 'did you do the laundry?' (or whatever chore is supposed to be yours) instead of saying 'the laundry isn't done, would you mind doing it?'

That's not what the OP's husband did, though.

If you were sitting in the living room with some empty dishes from your late-night snack next to you, would you rather your partner say, "Now, what need to be done about those dishes on the floor?" or "Hey, could you please bring me your dishes; I want to start the dishwasher."? The former is shaming and not respectful... and those are the words the OP's husband used.

Dar


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cuddleluvinma* 
OK, here is the situation...my dh asks my dd who's wrapper is on the floor. Dd says that it is her ad her friends. Dh says "So, what needs to be done about it being thrown on the floor?" . Dd says that it wasnt thrown on the floor.

Honestly....at this point in the conversation I would have sent my daughter to her room. He asked who the wrapper belonged to and she responded. No problem. When he asked what needed to be done, then she needed to comply with throwing it away. She knew that was the action needed to be taken. She chose to make a smart remark. When one of my crew respond to me in with a smart remark, they are usually testing the waters to see if I will battle them. I won't (at least on my good days). They want a battle which is why they are responding the way they are.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cuddleluvinma*
Dh says it doesn't matter how it got there, that it is hers and it needs to be picked up. Dd mimicks back what he says. Dh then says that he doesn't want to be talked to that way and that if she doesn't pick it up the she will have to deal with the consiquenses.

Again she seems to be trying to insigate a battle with you husband by mimicking him. My eight year old has a habit of doing this, though it is typically with his siblings. It gets him nowhere very quickly.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cuddleluvinma*
She says "no!" He tells her again that she needs to go to her room. she says no again.

I would have removed the child to her room. I don't see where you list your daughter's age, but I have been known to walk my 11.5 year son to his room when he refuses to do so on his own. My crew know that when they are told to go to their room, they need to comply. The consequences don't even start until they have gone to their room to detox. After they have detoxed, they are welcome to come out of their room and we can discuss the issue. If they start in with attitude again, I will remind them to check themselves. If they choose to continue, they go back to their room to detox again. I don't mind them being angry, but I refuse to be yelled at.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cuddleluvinma*
dh says that she needs to go to her room and that she can forget about getting to play with her friends for the rest of the day.

I think he probably responded out of anger with this decision, but the statement has been made. Whether it was thought-out or discussed with you is irrelevant. Honestly, if my daughter was responding the way she was I would have eliminated the sleepover as well.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cuddleluvinma*
Dd then get really angry and yells and Dh does the same. this is when I came out and say "whoa guys! Stop. I'm trying to put the baby down for a nap and now he can't because of the yelling." I try and get them to calm down but dh says that I need to be talking to dd instead of him. I say that no one should be yelling. they are sill going at it while I'm trying to say this. I tell dd to go to her room so that she can calm down and so that we can all have a break to think for a minute. I said it in a way that would not be offensive to her. So that she knew that I wasn't just punishing her but just wanted everyone to have a break. She went. I then ask dh to go into the other room so that we can talk about it. He says that he is not the one needing the talk, that dd does. I say that he has always gotten mad at me when I have talked to her first in the past and that I wanted to get the story from him first. He then comes and tells me what happened. I said that nomatter how she is responding that we as parents need to be the example and keep our calm. That yelling back is not the best way to deal with the situation. He is angry that I am lecturing him. I say tha I will talk to her about the way that she responded to him. So I did. She goes down to apoligise.

This is my biggest problem. I tend to jump in the middle of things when my husband is dealing with the kids. I am getting better at it, but I still do sometimes. My oldest and his dad butt heads a bit. I can say the same thing, but he just doesn't react the same for dad as he does me. My son is quick to become angry with my husband. I believe part of the problem is b/c I intervened too much with them. I was quick to 'save the day.' I didn't let them figure out how to relate to each other and I didn't let my husband find his own way of talking so our son will listen to him. I have tried to step back and just let them figure it out.

I do not get into the middle of the argument. If they are yelling, then I talk to my husband after our kids are in bed. The only thing that happens when I intervene while the issue is still heated or when I try to fix it after the fact is my kids loose any respect for dad's ability to deal with a situation. It also puts my husband as the kid as well. Honestly, I think talking to your husband after your daughter was in bed would have been a better idea.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cuddleluvinma*
Then I go down after giving them some time. She goes upstairs after alittle while. I tell dh that he still looks angry. He says that he is dissapointed and that he feels bad that she can't go to the sleepover that she was planning on going to. I am quiet. He says that Ineed to support him on the decision though. I say that it would probably be a good thing to not make those kind of decusions when he's angry like that because they are usually too harsh. he says that he would have made the same decision even if he wern't angry and that I need to support his decision. Now, this is where we really disagree. I say to him that I feel that the consiquenses that he gives should be a natural conciquense and that saying that she can't play with her friends because she has an attitude isn't what I consider to be a natural consiquense. dh thinks that it is.

I completely agree with your husband on this point. You need to support him to show a united front for your daughter. If you let her go, then you show her that dad has zero authority.

I also agree that attitude eliminates the other stuff planned for the day. If my children can't talk to me with respect, they don't get to go somewhere else to see if the attitude persists. They treat me with respect, I do the same. I don't really see where your husband was disrespectful with your daughter. He asked who the wrapper belonged to and then asked that the wrapper be dealt with. Your daughter started the battle with attitude. It was unnecessary.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cuddleluvinma*
He says that if he want her to do something and she says no that he will say no to something the she want to do it. I said that seems like a childish way of dealing with it. he says that I am not dong anything because I don't want to punish her. I say that I don't feel that my job as a parent is to give punishments but to teach an guide her. I think that talking to her about the way that he feels when she reacts to him like that would teach her better than taking privelages away. she is a very emotional girl and does better when other peoples emotions are explained rather than giving consiquinses.

I agree his logic is a bit off, but I think the consequence fits. I do agree he should talk with her about how it makes him feel. I think she needs to no his reasons for reacting the way he does. She would hopefully be able to respond to this honesty from your husband when the next issue arises.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cuddleluvinma*
I want ot back dh up.

You absolutely need to back your husband to show her that he has the authority to make a consequence for an action that was wrong on her part.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cuddleluvinma*
But, I also think that it isn't good to send dd to her room if she doesn't want to go there. I think that suggesting it in a way where she understands that it would be good for the situation for her to go for everyone to be able to calm down is good.

This is something your husband can work on being able to say differently next time. When everyone is calm, you can give him some pointers on how to word it the next time.

As far as sending a child who doesn't want to go to their room there anyway.....our house is less than a thousand square feet and holds two adults, four children, three cats, two dogs, and a hamster. We chose their room as a place to detox b/c it is the only place unoccupied during the day. They are rarely in there to play, everything comes to the living room. They are able to away from everyone else in the house and everyone else knows to leave them be until they come out. They usually send themselves there when they are mad. The biggest advantage they find is the doors can lock, so they will lock them until they are calmed down.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cuddleluvinma*
I can't tell dh to because he wouldn't and it would just get him more upset. I also don't want him to yell. I don't want her to yell either. But, the thing that he doesn't understand is that she has less selfcontrol than he does (or should have) because he is the adault and she is the child. Also he says that he won't yell if she doesn't yell. I say that it soesn't work that way. We should be the calm and steady even more so when she gets out of control.

I would suggest talking to him when the situation is cooled down. I have a temper and tend to yell. I am trying really hard to not yell at all. It is really hard for me to do so. If my husband tries to talk to me when I am angry, all bets are off and I come up with every defense mechanism in the book to justify my behavior. If he talks to me when I am calm (usually the next day), then I react completely differently.

I do agree that, as parents, we need to remain calm and in control. It is a learned process (at least for me it is). It has taken me a long time to gain control over myself and I still am not completely in control.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cuddleluvinma*
I don't know what to do.







: Please give me thoughts, input, suggestions on this.

I hope none of what I wrote offends you. I am going off of how I would respond with one of my crew.


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## cjanelles (Oct 22, 2005)

I used to try to get my kid to think about his actions (or lack thereof) by asking similar questions.

One day it occurred to me that really what I needed to be doing was promoting a habit...a pattern.

We have this "trash left on the floor" problem in our house...only the floor becomes the kitchen counter, the dining room table, the sofa, you name it.

Used to be I'd start with:

"Whose cheese wrapper is this on the counter?"

That would be met with a variety of answers ranging from 'not mine' to 'that's Jane's [sister] to '::huff:: mine'...

Depending on the answer, I would ask another question:

"Well, where do cheese wrappers belong when they're empty? Why did you leave it on the counter?"

By this point, he'd be annoyed with the "lesson" and huff into the kitchen and begrudgingly, filled with attitude, fling the wrapper into the trash can.

Which would piss me off...and I would then admonish him for his attitude because he was being a jerk to me and *I* wasn't the one who left the cheese wrapper, yadda yadda yadda.

Sometimes it would deteorate further, sometimes it would just lend to 10 or 15 tense minutes in the house.

What I realized, though, was that nothing was changing. He wasn't "getting it". There were still cheese wrappers left on the counter...daily. So on and on.

I changed my tactic. I didn't have the energy or wherewithall to engage in a highly frustrating lesson (for both of us) every time a cheese wrapper needed to be thrown away. And it wasn't working anyway.

I decided that I needed to reinforce a new habit for him--one that would solve the "throw away the wrapper" dilemma. So, whenever I encountered a wrapper on the floor or counter, I would simply call out to him or go get him, and kindly say, "I need you for a minute please."

He'd come to the kitchen (where ever), I'd indicate the wrapper and say, "Can you throw that away please."

His answer? "Oh, yeah. Sorry."

Wrapper in the trash.

You know what happened? Well, what I see happening? Less cheese wrappers. Occasionally, I have to ask him to come throw something away or take care of his mess, but it is far less frequently than when we were having the constant power struggles over him doing something I believed should be second nature...because it wasn't second nature to him yet.

But what _was_ second nature to him was the urge to get defensive when he felt attacked by me, and he felt attacked when I began the whole inquisition of how said cheese wrapper came to be...

I know the OP was asking more about the natural evolution of her kid's attitude and inappropriate behavior, not a cheese wrapper...but I think that sometimes we parents set our kids up for failure (or fighting) because we engage in some button-pushing that we could simply avoid by giving some directions and leaving it at that.

I've done it a million times. It's a hard habit to break.


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## cuddleluvinma (Jun 6, 2006)

I hav talked with dh about just asking nicely for the thing that he wants to get done. He just doesn't get it. I don't see why though. If I were to ask him where his guitar went when he left it out he would be pissed. So I don't. I do't because it would be disrespectful. there are too many power struggles going on around here. And they wouldn't be happening if he would just use a different tone of voice or use different wording. He isn't interested in reading gd books. I have (many times) tried to get him to read"how to talk to kids so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk" because I think that it's a great book, not just for the way to talk to kids , but for anyone in your life. I think that the only reason why dd said "no" was because of the way that she was asked.
He did rethink his punishment and said that if she cleaned her room up that she could go for the sleepover. But, sadly, her friend ended up ditching her to sleep over at another friends house







I feel bad for her. I give him credit for rethinking his decision, but, it really didn't make any sense that she needed to clean her room as a way to "make things better" . I do give him credit though. He's trying.
Are there any other books on gd that anyone can suggest? When I tried to get dh to look at the 'how to talk to kids so kids will listen and listen to kids so they will talk' he looked at some of the examples and asked "and what are you supposed to do if they still don't want to do do what you ask?" .

thank you for all of the responses. More would be good.


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## cjanelles (Oct 22, 2005)

This particular book hasn't been received well when I've mentioned it in this forum, but I think it has more to do with the title and less to do with the content because no one has said whether or not they've actually read it...BUT

The book "Yes, Your Teen Is Crazy" by Dr. Michael Bradley was really an eye-opener for me. I think it may have saved my mental health, honestly. He doesn't just offer advice on how to deal with your kid, but he also provides a clinical and medical insight as to what's going on with your teen's brain and development that make them difficult to deal with sometimes.

I'd send you mine, but I still read through it about once every couple of weeks. Here's the link on Amazon, though.

http://www.amazon.com/Yes-Your-Teen-...e=UTF8&s=books


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Would your DH listen to books on tape if he won't actually read a book? I know my Dad has no patience to sit and read anything other than a magazine or newspaper, but he likes listening to books while commuting.

Would he read short articles about GD? Emails? This thread?


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I think this falls into that typical situation of different parenting styles and it sounds like he feels threatened (by a lack of power or something else) when he is questioned. I kinda went through a similar thing with my dh. Partly it was because I already had dd when I met him, she was 1 year old but I'd spent tons of energy and time thinking about and planning and parenting the way I wanted to parent. He hadn't spent any time on it, it was on auto pilot with how his parents raised him. We got in a decent amount of disagreements when she was little over how parenting should be. He totally did not get where I was coming from because he had authoritarian parents, similar to the stuff that houdini posted. I would never ever agree to have my child treated that way. Gradually he got it and while he does it differently than I would sometimes it took him being able to look at the parenting he received before he could leave authoritaian parenting behind and choose to be GD. And some counseling helped along with alot of discussions between us.


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## cuddleluvinma (Jun 6, 2006)

ok, I put that last post in ther before I saw that there was a second page of responses.
Houdini, when I read the part where you said that you refuse to be yelled at and that the have to go to their room if they did yell at you. It made me wonder if you go to your room if you yell at them. I honestly think that we expect more from our kids than we do from ourselve sometimes. I don't want to be controlling with my dd. I feel that if I set the basis for her to understand herself to be someone who gets put in her place, then it will be the way that she sees herself in later situations. Or, that she will think that this is the way that she needs to be with her kids or other people in her life.
Also, you had mentioned undermining his authority. Most of the time when he tells her something he will look at me and will want me to say something to back him up. If I don't then he gets mad at me. I tell him that by doing so that I am taking away his authority, not to mention, I don't want to say that I agree with him when I don't. It's lying. I don't want to. If he says things to her that I don't agree with, I usually just sit quietly and let them deal with it themselves. But, sometimes, I feel that what is being said is a mind f*ck and I don't want it happening. I do step in then. As far as this situation goes....the only reason why I came out of the room to say "woah!" was because I was trying to get ds to sleep and he can't sleep when there is yelling going on. Not to mention, I don't want us to be a yeling household. I have already seen ds (who is only 1 1/2) mimick the yelling and anger. I don't want to pass that on, not to either on of our kids. Now, I'm not saying that I haven't lost it and yelled. I have but, I would want, and have been thankful for, dh stepping in and saying that he can see that I'm upset and that maybe we should take a breather. I want to do better. I want dh to do better too.


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## cuddleluvinma (Jun 6, 2006)

cjanelles, is this the Bradley who came up with 'the bradley method' for birthing?If so, it was a great book. I am going to pick it up. Thank you for suggesting it.

ruthla, its worth mentioning. Although, dh isn't apposed to reading books, just not this type of book. he seems to think that it would just be a waste of time. He thinks that he knows the correct way of dealing with things and that he won't change his mind and therefore reading it would be a waste of time. Maybe shorter articles would be a good start. But, I don't think that he would be to happy reading this post. he would be offended that I "talked" to people about this. But, I need to "talk" to someone about this.

Arduinna, I do think that counseling would help us out in this matter. I've been thinking that for some time now.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
Would you as an adult prefer that someone tell you to clean something or would you rather have someone ask, for instance 'did you do the laundry?' (or whatever chore is supposed to be yours) instead of saying 'the laundry isn't done, would you mind doing it?'

I'd prefer either of those questions to the "what needs to happen to the laundry?" approach cited by the OP. Her dh's question sounded incredibly patronizing and condescending, imo. I'm not sure how old the dd in question is, but that would have set me off _huge_ when I was a hormonal teenager.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
She knew that was the action needed to be taken. She chose to make a smart remark. When one of my crew respond to me in with a smart remark, they are usually testing the waters to see if I will battle them. I won't (at least on my good days). They want a battle which is why they are responding the way they are.

This really depends on the child in question, though. DS1 has been "talking back" and "being smart" since he was a little kid. Much of the time, the "smart" remark was uttered while he was doing whatever he was asked to do. He's not trying to start a battle...he's just really picky. If someone tells him to pick up his shoes, he feels the need to clarify that they're actually boots - not an attempt to start an argument, just a personality trait.

Of course, I don't know if this applies to the OP's dd or not.


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## cuddleluvinma (Jun 6, 2006)

yep storm bridge. i also think that she said it to defend herself. I don't think that she wants him going around thinking that she was just walking through the hall and though "hmmm, I think that I'll jst throw this on the ground now." Because she's not like that, as far as I know.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cuddleluvinma* 
ok, I put that last post in ther before I saw that there was a second page of responses.
Houdini, when I read the part where you said that you refuse to be yelled at and that the have to go to their room if they did yell at you. It made me wonder if you go to your room if you yell at them.

Absolutely, I do. I attempt to do when I feel myself getting too mad to deal with the situation calmly. I always put on the same song (really loud to drown out the noise) and they know to let me be until I come out. I have played this song since they were little, so they are used to the cue. I am the type of person who needs to be completely away from the situation and noise to calm down. I used to go on long walks, then drives (when I got my license), and then the kids came along. I couldn't leave them alone in the house to calm down, so I started the song in my room thing. I also vent to a friend on IM and he offers me the perspective my kids probably have on the situation which helps some as well.

Honestly, once I get mad enough to start yelling it isn't good (obviously). I am totally into my defense mode and nothing positive comes out of my mouth.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cuddleluvinma*
I honestly think that we expect more from our kids than we do from ourselve sometimes. I don't want to be controlling with my dd. I feel that if I set the basis for her to understand herself to be someone who gets put in her place, then it will be the way that she sees herself in later situations. Or, that she will think that this is the way that she needs to be with her kids or other people in her life.

I agree with this a bit. I do agree that sometimes we expect more from our kids. I do try to guide my kids, more than punish and control. I will use punishment if it is necessary. I think it is great to let kids learn naturally when it is possible.

I also think it is vital that they learn the different ways another person may approach them in a situation. My crew will eventually be in the 'real world' and they will encounter people who don't ask nicely or have different ways of dealing with issues. My crew have two different parents they get guidance from. My husband tends to be more logical and calm, but a lot more strict. I tend to be spontaneous and a bit louder, but I try really hard to see their side of things.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cuddleluvinma*
Also, you had mentioned undermining his authority. Most of the time when he tells her something he will look at me and will want me to say something to back him up. If I don't then he gets mad at me. I tell him that by doing so that I am taking away his authority, not to mention, I don't want to say that I agree with him when I don't. It's lying. I don't want to. If he says things to her that I don't agree with, I usually just sit quietly and let them deal with it themselves. But, sometimes, I feel that what is being said is a mind f*ck and I don't want it happening. I do step in then. As far as this situation goes....the only reason why I came out of the room to say "woah!" was because I was trying to get ds to sleep and he can't sleep when there is yelling going on. Not to mention, I don't want us to be a yeling household. I have already seen ds (who is only 1 1/2) mimick the yelling and anger. I don't want to pass that on, not to either on of our kids. Now, I'm not saying that I haven't lost it and yelled. I have but, I would want, and have been thankful for, dh stepping in and saying that he can see that I'm upset and that maybe we should take a breather. I want to do better. I want dh to do better too.

In situations where my husband is doing things totally different, I just tell the kids your father is taking care of the situation. As long as my husband isn't being abusive, then he finishes what he started in dealing with the situation. He does the same for me.

Interestingly enough, I tend to be more abrasive than him. He rarely raises his voice to them. My crew are really testing their dad right now and will argue with him a lot more than they will me. They also tend to jump right to attitude with him. I think it is vitally important to let my husband learn how to talk to them and deal with the situation the best. If he does look to me (he doesn't very often), I will reiterate they need to listen to their father. If the situation isn't dealt with the way I would have or I see meltdowns happening that could have been prevented by different wording, I will offer the wording after they are in bed. They see a united front and my husband still gets the benefit of learning a different way of dealing with the situation that may prevent the meltdowns. My husband is a lot more receptive to my offers of help than I am most times. I tend to jump straight to defensiveness. He has helped me to calm down and not jump on the defensive as much as I used to.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
This really depends on the child in question, though. DS1 has been "talking back" and "being smart" since he was a little kid. Much of the time, the "smart" remark was uttered while he was doing whatever he was asked to do. He's not trying to start a battle...he's just really picky. If someone tells him to pick up his shoes, he feels the need to clarify that they're actually boots - not an attempt to start an argument, just a personality trait.

Of course, I don't know if this applies to the OP's dd or not.

One of my son's does this as well. It's the analytical/logical side of him. He typically says it under his breath b/c it drives him nuts when I am not technically correct.

I think that if your child's personality is like that, then you can adjust to it. Zachary is allowed the correction and if I don't punish him for it. If it continues, then he will face the consequences of talking back to me. I am able to take corrections if I am wrong, but the tone of voice used will tell me if he is trying to correct my mistake or start an issue.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
One of my son's does this as well. It's the analytical/logical side of him. He typically says it under his breath b/c it drives him nuts when I am not technically correct.

I think that if your child's personality is like that, then you can adjust to it. Zachary is allowed the correction and if I don't punish him for it. If it continues, then he will face the consequences of talking back to me. I am able to take corrections if I am wrong, but the tone of voice used will tell me if he is trying to correct my mistake or start an issue.

Yup - that's it exactly. DS1 is now almost 14, and the tone occasionally slips into "attitude" (comes by it honestly, I'm afraid). I address that when it happens, but I clearly remember his frequent corrections of adults when he was a little kid, so I try hard not to just assume that the corrections have a different motivation, just because he's an adolescent.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Yup - that's it exactly. DS1 is now almost 14, and the tone occasionally slips into "attitude" (comes by it honestly, I'm afraid). I address that when it happens, but I clearly remember his frequent corrections of adults when he was a little kid, so I try hard not to just assume that the corrections have a different motivation, just because he's an adolescent.

So I should officially give up hope he may outgrow this.









FTR....my crew come by their 'attitude' very honestly as well.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
So I should officially give up hope he may outgrow this.









FTR....my crew come by their 'attitude' very honestly as well.

Honestly? DS1 does it less than he used to, but I notice it more, due to the aforementioned attitude. I think he's figuring out that wanting to have things right is fine, but that people really don't like being interrupted all the time for the correcting of piddly details.


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## Maggi315 (Aug 31, 2003)

You know, my husband sometimes does this kind of thing and it drives me crazy. He'll stand in the middle of the hall and ask "who left this xxx?" Like everyone is gonna come running to claim it or something.

I agree with some other posters. Just ask that it be picked up. Done, no big deal, lesson learned. Or use "I" statements to show how it irritates you.

We are working hard on respect in our house and it goes both ways. I expect my children to speak respectfully but I have learned that I better start out talking respectfully to them or I have blown the whole lesson in respect!

It shouldn't turn into a power struggle. Sit down with dc and talk about respect and consequences and have them set up ahead of time.

Also, if my husband comes home and asks me about the laundry or suggests that I get to it, well, it wouldn't be a pretty sight around here and my kids certainly wouldn't be learning respect


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
I think he set the stage for the encounter with his asking her what needs to be done about the wrapper. Why not just ask her to please pick it up from the start? She isn't stupid, I'm sure she knows it belongs in the trash. I think if he improved his attitude towards her he would likely get a better response from her.

ITA.

And also, why bother asking whose wrapper it is? "Please pick it up" would have sufficed.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2tadpoles* 
ITA.

And also, why bother asking whose wrapper it is? "Please pick it up" would have sufficed.

In my house of four kids we always ask this question first. This avoids the ever famous 'but it's not mine response.'

By asking first, we know we to talk to about picking up. We have also started letting the kids know that it doesn't matter who put it on the floor, everyone needs to help keep the house clean. I pick up a number of things throughout the day that are not mine and they can do the same.


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
We have also started letting the kids know that it doesn't matter who put it on the floor, everyone needs to help keep the house clean. I pick up a number of things throughout the day that are not mine and they can do the same.









: I'm glad I'm not the only one talking about collective responsibility at home. The 'its not mine' thing drives me nuts


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
By asking first, we know we to talk to about picking up. *We have also started letting the kids know that it doesn't matter who put it on the floor, everyone needs to help keep the house clean.* I pick up a number of things throughout the day that are not mine and they can do the same.

Exactly. So why ask whose it is, when everyone needs to help pick up after each other?

I know when I ask my sons to pick something up/put something away, they sometimes say "it's not mine/I didn't bring it out." I wind up saying something along the lines of "I didn't ask who did it, I asked for you to help put things away."


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## Jenny_Jane (Nov 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
He was giving respect, it was in the form of hoping his daughter would make the decision to pick it up before he had to tell her.

Respect comes in different forms.

ITA














:


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## Jenny_Jane (Nov 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
Respect comes in many forms.

Obediance
Love
Compliance
Compassion
Compliments
Even if you lose to an adversary (in a competition) you can still Respect their skill.

Respect come in many forms.

She may have been the one not showing the respect not the dad. I mean come on its just a candy wrapper


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

I read, and re-read the first paragraph of the OP, and think DD was more out of line than DH.

Yes, his opening line did set up the situation in a somewhat negative way (the child in question, according to the the siggy, is 10, which is still quite young. Several posters have said this is not the way to talk to a teen - but the person in question is not a teen). I think he does need to learn to re-word things in a more respectful way, but the DD reaction was out of line. In fact, I think it is possible she was showing off for her friend, or annoyed at being interrupted (in which case she should have used her words and said "May I finnish this round first? then i will pick it up" -that sort of thing). In any event refusing to pick up the wrapper was not OK.

If she was showing off for friend, lossing the privelage of playing with the friend is a natural consequence.

So I think you are partly right - DH needs to learn some beter communication and he needs to learn not to deliver consequences in a state of anger - but DD was still out of line in her actions.

And yes, as the adult, he needs to keep his calm and help DD to learn to keep hers.

Even if you do not agree with DH decision, I would definately support it in front of DD. Your DD will feel more secure in a house where the boundaries are firm, and parents united. Work on him privately







:

kathy


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## tasbaby (May 6, 2006)

I'm not the original poster, but I feel like I could have written her post except our run in today was over an empty cup not a candy wrapper. I have a 10 year old daughter (11 tomorrow!) and a one year old son. We've really been struggling lately with how to communicate with our DD and how to support each other's "discipline" decisions. I don't love the way that we've been parenting her and we could use some help. In fact, I was just coming here to ask when I saw this post. Your responses have been interesting to read and I've already gone to my library's website and put holds on a couple of the books that have been mentioned. Thank you!

Tina


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## ameriejane (Aug 2, 2003)

removed by user


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ceigej* 
Reminds me of "Love and Logic."

Basically, she has chosen to treat the floor like a trash can.
She refuses to take responsibility for it. Dad could say (after the refusal):"OK...I'll take care of that."
He picks it up and puts it on the floor of her room. Everything she refuses to pick up goes onto the floor of her room. Then she will have to take care of it later...Clean her room BEFORE she can go to the sleepover. She should get tired of finding trash/items on her floor where they do not belong, especially when said items become her responsibility. She will realize that she could have picked it up the first time.

I really like this idea! I will have to try this at home.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ceigej* 
Reminds me of "Love and Logic."

Basically, she has chosen to treat the floor like a trash can.
She refuses to take responsibility for it. Dad could say (after the refusal):"OK...I'll take care of that."
He picks it up and puts it on the floor of her room. Everything she refuses to pick up goes onto the floor of her room. Then she will have to take care of it later...Clean her room BEFORE she can go to the sleepover. She should get tired of finding trash/items on her floor where they do not belong, especially when said items become her responsibility. She will realize that she could have picked it up the first time.

I am storing this nugget in the back of my head. That is fantastic.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

yeah that is classic GD isn't it. Whatever, I prefer to have a good relationship with my child, not play head games with them so they wonder who the actual adult is.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
yeah that is classic GD isn't it. Whatever, I prefer to have a good relationship with my child, not play head games with them so they wonder who the actual adult is.


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## 2BMamaof3 (Oct 13, 2003)

Arduinna I could kiss you.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
yeah that is classic GD isn't it. Whatever, I prefer to have a good relationship with my child, not play head games with them so they wonder who the actual adult is.


So, you would pick up the trash?

Has nothing to do with playing games, as you say, and more to do with responsibility.

I don't expect my children to pick up my trash, should they expect me to pick up theirs?

Sounds to me like it has more to do with showing equal respect.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
So, you would pick up the trash?

Has nothing to do with playing games, as you say, and more to do with responsibility.

I don't expect my children to pick up my trash, should they expect me to pick up theirs?

Sounds to me like it has more to do with showing equal respect.

You have an interesting perspective. In our family we all help each other. We don't wash just the specific dish we used, each one of us takes turn doing the dishes. Sometimes my children to pick up my trash, and I will pick up theirs when necessary.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup* 
You have an interesting perspective. In our family we all help each other. We don't wash just the specific dish we used, each one of us takes turn doing the dishes. Sometimes my children to pick up my trash, and I will pick up theirs when necessary.

Actually that sounds fairly normal.

However

If you leave a piece of trash in the middle of the kitchen floor do you expect someone else to come by and pick up after you? Or if your child opens a sucker and drops their trash on the floor do you just pick it up for them?

If you ask them to pick it up, and they tell you 'no' and refuse to do so, then what do you do?

You say 'when necessary'. However, if they drop it, they are standing right next to it, refuse to pick it up. Is it then necessary for you to do it?

That seems like a very interesting tactic to me personally.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
If you leave a piece of trash in the middle of the kitchen floor do you expect someone else to come by and pick up after you?

If I noticed I dropped something I would pick it up. If I didn't for some reason, and someone else noticed it I would expect them to pick it up. I think that is just what you do when you live with others. If they put it on the floor of my room to "teach me a lesson" I would think that very immature and childish.

Quote:

Or if your child opens a sucker and drops their trash on the floor do you just pick it up for them?
If I was right there when they dropped it I would just remind them--"oops, you dropped your wrapper, honey." If I noticed after they were out of the room I would just throw it away. Not a big deal. I'd do the same if my dh accidentally left some trash on the floor.

Quote:

If you ask them to pick it up, and they tell you 'no' and refuse to do so, then what do you do?
If this happened they would undoubtably have a good reason.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup* 
If I noticed I dropped something I would pick it up. If I didn't for some reason, and someone else noticed it I would expect them to pick it up. I think that is just what you do when you live with others. If they put it on the floor of my room to "teach me a lesson" I would think that very immature and childish. If I was right there when they dropped it I would just remind them--"oops, you dropped your rapper, honey." If I noticed after they were out of the room I would just throw it away. Not a big deal. I'd do the same if my dh accidentally left some trash on the floor.

If this happened they would undoubtably have a good reason.

and in the OP's post do you think the daughter had a good reason? Other than rebelling against her dad because she felt he wasn't showing her respect. (least that seems to be the conclusion we have come to in this thread so I will stick with that reason for this question)


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

OP, if you're still looking for another book suggestion, I'd suggest Anthony Wolf's "Secret of Parenting" - it's a more "adult in charge" version of GD, but shows concertely that you can still be an authoritative, gentle parent without threats or punishments (or power struggles).

As to this particular situation, I have to agree with PP who say he was baiting a struggle by asking who left the wrapper. If it wasn't him, and he knew it wasn't you or the baby, and he knew it was DD, what exactly is the purpose of asking her? To get her to admit responsibility? They both knew he knew it was her, so why be patronizing? Wolf addresses this in his book. Asking a question you already know the answer to is a sure way to get into power struggles, lies, and "attitudes" from your kids.

I remember an ongoing "joke" (but really had us all shaking our heads) about my Papa was that he was always asking questions that either had obvious answers, or solutions that were easily just done by him. "Whoooooo left the basement door open?" "Whooooo left the light on in the bathroom?" walking around the house searching for someone to blame. How much easier it would have been for him to just close the door or shut off the light, and then said to everyone when we were all gathered at dinner, "Hey everyone, try to remember to shut the door/turn off the light." How much more respectful than trying to find the "offending party" and call them out. The former sounds really passive/aggressive to me; the latter, respectful and actually trying to solve the root of the problem.

Wolf gives great anecdotes and examples of how to disengage from the power struggle itself, but not the child. And he gives a technique of "active waiting" that I have found working already in my almost 3-year-old. This is where you state your request, then just stand there until it gets done - no engaging in discussions or arguments about it, just restate the request. And wait. If you run out of time and eventually have to do it yourself, you do it, and let them know that next time you expect them to do it. And that's it, no punishment. And it works. Not the first time, maybe not the 5th time, but it does work. It's already working for us.

It will be a shift of relationship dynamic than your husband seems to have right now, and might mean a few weeks of *more* "problems" than he has now, but in the end it will be totally worth it.

I think your husband might really like WOlf's book. The subtitle is "How to be in charge of today's kids without threats or punishment".

Good luck!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
and in the OP's post do you think the daughter had a good reason? Other than rebelling against her dad because she felt he wasn't showing her respect. (least that seems to be the conclusion we have come to in this thread so I will stick with that reason for this question)

I would bet it's probably one way she feels in control, as it's likely if this is a pattern in her life she feels like she doesn't have much control and is ordered around a lot.

That's just what I glean from the OP's original and follow up posts. Don't know about anyone else, but years of arbitrary consequences and patronizing questions would put me a little on the defensive and make me pretty snarky. Being direct is so much more respectful, and even as a parent, I feel my child's respect for me is earned (by being respectful of them), not automatically demanded.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I would bet it's probably one way she feels in control, as it's likely if this is a pattern in her life she feels like she doesn't have much control and is ordered around a lot.

That's just what I glean from the OP's original and follow up posts. Don't know about anyone else, but years of arbitrary consequences and patronizing questions would put me a little on the defensive and make me pretty snarky. Being direct is so much more respectful, and even as a parent, I feel my child's respect for me is earned (by being respectful of them), not automatically demanded.

I agree.

Doesnt change the question I posted to the other poster though.

If you are in a situation where your child just refuses to pick up a piece of trash they left there at their feet when you ask them. Do you just do it for them? Or....?

Regardless of 'why' they did it, they refused. How do you respond?


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## mamarhu (Sep 12, 2004)

I think the adult is responsible for the tone of the conversation, the atmosphere in the household. I too have an 11 year old DD, and I know well how it can be with attitude. But I prefer to live in a peaceful home, and I am fully willing to pick up a candy wrapper to protect that peace. I would ask DD to pick it up. Same tone I would use for a coworker or adult friend. "Hey, would you please pick that up?" Nothing more, nothing less. I can't imagine my daughter wouldn't just do it, although in her more hormonal moments, there might be a scowl or muttered comment under her breath. I generally choose to ignore these. If she refused to do it, it might be me scowling and muttering, but I wouldn't go to war over it.

I extend the concept of natural consequences to 'Mom's attitude". I have been known to point out to the Dumplings that I am much more fun when I am happy, and that if I use my energy in picking up after them too much, I likely won't have much energy left for playing that board game or the museum trip we were planning. But all this is said with humor: a long, dramatic tale about my exhaustion, complete with "fainting" on the kitchen floor, asking them to get me a glass of water. I think they go out of their way to avoid my performance. But we all end up laughing, rather than fighting.

Power struggles have no winner.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
I agree.

Doesnt change the question I posted to the other poster though.

If you are in a situation where your child just refuses to pick up a piece of trash they left there at their feet when you ask them. Do you just do it for them? Or....?

Regardless of 'why' they did it, they refused. How do you respond?

OK, sometimrs this happens.
Me: "DS, would you pick that up and put it in the trash please?"
DS: "YOU can do it."

Which cracks me up, because of the inflection he uses - no spitefulness or attitude behind it, just a statement of fact. (He'll be 3 at the end of January).

Me: "I know I CAN do it, but I'm asking you to do it."

8 times out of 10, he'll say "OK" and do it himself. 2 times out of 10 he gets distracted and wanders away. I'll then put it in the trash myself, and say, "I'd appreciate you doing it yourself next time when I ask you."

And then it's dropped.

Contrary to what some might believe, this has NOT led him to stopping doing things I ask him (because he knows I'll eventually do it if I want it done). It's just not that kind of dynamic in our household...we all help each other out. Nobody in our family (me, DH, DS - DD is far too little a baby!) shirks responsibility ALL the time; but SOMETIMES one of us doesn't feel like doing something...myself and DH included, so someone else picks up the slack.

We're not an entirely consensual household, and sometimes I do "make" DS do things he doesn't want to do, but power struggles over cleaning up just isn't on our radar; our day to day spirit of cooperation continues to be the norm, over the occasional situation where he doesn't want to help out or pick up after himself. Sometimes I don't want to help out either, and sometimes I don't...and it either waits until later, or DH does whatever it is. We work together and get things done...which is MUCH easier taught by cooperation and modeling than by controlling "from above".

Hoep this helps clarify.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
and in the OP's post do you think the daughter had a good reason? Other than rebelling against her dad because she felt he wasn't showing her respect. (least that seems to be the conclusion we have come to in this thread so I will stick with that reason for this question)

When the parent chooses to draw a line in the sand about picking up a wrapper he makes that an issue of power and control. Is the child not picking up the wrapper because they don't know how? No. They are refusing to do it because they are engaged in a power struggle with the parent. A simple way to avoid this is to not create that power struggle in the first place.

I choose to live in an environment of cooperation and helpfulness.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Just curious where the line is drawn for a child's refusal to do something.

If your child consistently refuses to be cooperative or help when asked, then what?

I am not implying that by doing it for them on occasion is going to lead to a uncooperative/unhelpful child. I do know that sometimes kids just figure if they refuse and you do it, then great they don't have to.

At what point to you draw the line and expect the child to cooperate?


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:

I do know that sometimes kids just figure if they refuse and you do it, then great they don't have to.
I haven't found this to be true. Kids learn primarily by example. If you show them helpfulness and cooperation, expect it from them and guide and help them when necessary, they will be helpful and cooperate.

Here are some tips for engaging cooperation from an article by Peggy O'Mara:
"_How do we engage the cooperation of children? We talk to them in a different way. Here are some examples of new ways to approach problems with our children:
We can describe what we see.
I see a glass near the edge of the table.
We can describe the problem.
The kitchen is a mess.
We can give information.
Bikes left out in the rain will rust.
We can make a statement of appropriate function or behavior.
We don't hit people.
We can offer a choice.
You can wear the red outfit or
the green outfit.
We can say it in a word.
Shoes!
We can describe what we feel.
When I come home tired from work, I feel sorry for myself when I have to make dinner. It would be so nice to come home to dinner being cooked and to have some help in the kitchen.
We can write a note._"

The book _How To Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk_ has great, easy to follow, suggestions for engaging kids in cooperation and improving communication.

Quote:

At what point to you draw the line and expect the child to cooperate?
You can expect them to cooperate without drawing lines in the sand. I expect my dh to help me, but that doesn't mean I punish him if he doesn't. The minute you say to yourself "I must do/not do this to show them who's in charge," you are setting up a power struggle.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup* 
I haven't found this to be true. Kids learn primarily by example. If you show them helpfulness and cooperation, expect it from them and guide and help them when necessary, they will be helpful and cooperate.

This is where we completely differ in our views then. I don't think all you have to is model the behaviors and they will learn them. I think modeling is a very important aspect of the process, but not the only part of it.

My crew are generally helpful and cooperative, but they are getting to the age where they are testing the limits more. They want to see what my reaction is going to be. They are 5, 8, 10, 11. I can tell you, from my experience, there is a world of difference is how I guide them now than when they were three.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup*
You can expect them to cooperate without drawing lines in the sand. I expect my dh to help me, but that doesn't mean I punish him if he doesn't. The minute you say to yourself "I must do/not do this to show them who's in charge," you are setting up a power struggle.

For my household it isn't a matter of who is in charge or not in charge. It is a matter of respect, which goes both ways. It goes right along with the idea of 'treat others as you want them to treat you.'

Power struggles will come and go at any age and at anytime. I don't see how to competely avoid them.

I want my crew to know that, even when they don't 'want' to do something, sometimes you have to do things b/c it is the right thing/time to do them. They will eventually face circumstances where their cooperation will be required, even if they don't want to do it.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
So, you would pick up the trash?

Has nothing to do with playing games, as you say, and more to do with responsibility.

I don't expect my children to pick up my trash, should they expect me to pick up theirs?

Sounds to me like it has more to do with showing equal respect.


Quote:

Dad could say (after the refusal):"OK...I'll take care of that."
He picks it up and puts it on the floor of her room. Everything she refuses to pick up goes onto the floor of her room.
you totally missed the point. I sure as heck would never pick up the trash and proceed to toss it in my childs room like a petulant child. Which is what the post I replied to suggested.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
I think modeling is a very important aspect of the process, but not the only part of it.

I didn't say it was the only part of it. Go back and read what I wrote. I said kids learn _primarily_ by example. If you show them helpfulness and cooperation, _expect it from them and guide and help them_ when necessary.

Quote:

It is a matter of respect, which goes both ways. It goes right along with the idea of 'treat others as you want them to treat you.'
Exactly what I was saying. I don't see how the punishment of throwing trash in your child's room is at all respectful.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup* 
I didn't say it was the only part of it. Go back and read what I wrote. I said kids learn _primarily_ by example. If you show them helpfulness and cooperation, _expect it from them and guide and help them_ when necessary.

In what ways to you guide and help them?


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
Just curious where the line is drawn for a child's refusal to do something.

If your child consistently refuses to be cooperative or help when asked, then what?

I am not implying that by doing it for them on occasion is going to lead to a uncooperative/unhelpful child. I do know that sometimes kids just figure if they refuse and you do it, then great they don't have to.

At what point to you draw the line and expect the child to cooperate?

I fully expect my child to cooperate, and set out those expectations regularly; the difference is, if he doesn't, I don't punish him.

It would depend on the mess, but I would figure out the reason why he didn't want to cooperate, and figure out a solution from there.

Is he busy doing something else? Then he can pick it up later, with a reminder form me.

Is he overwhelmed and doesn't know where to begin? Then maybe we need to purge or rotate some toys out because there's too much stuff.

Did he say he'd do it "later", but then didn't? Then I'd have a convesation with him about how to help him remember.

Did he just not feel like it? Well, if it was just the odd occasion, then I'd honor that, because sometimes I don't feel like picking things up, so I don't. BUT, if 'not feeling like it' became the norm and not the exception, then we'd figure out a way to make a system that we all could agree on, because we help each other out, there's not one person who does everything here.

I also do employ the "active waiting" with him, so if there's something I want him to do, and he's not doing it, I will wait there for him to do it as long as I can, with a couple reminders. Example: It was pajama time last week. He was goofing around trying to put his arms into the bottoms. His sister had just started crying, and DH wasn't home that evening to be with her like he usually is. So, I said to him, "Your sister is starting to cry, we need to get you dressed so I can pick her up." He dawdled for a couple seconds and started putting his arms in the pants again, and looked up at me and smiled, looking for a reaction. I just sat there holding the pants out and calmly, pleasantly said, "we need to get your pants on, bud." Less than 10 seconds later, he happily, calmly put his legs into his pants and he was dressed, and I picked up DD and we had an enjoyable story time before bed. The alternative of me yelling at or reprimanding him for goofing off would have turned it into a power struggle with him likely running away from me (which has happened before I started using this 'active waiting') and us both being aggravated. I didn't ignore him, I didn't raise my voice, I simply stated what had to be done, and waited. If he would have continued to goof around, I would have put the pants down and gotten DD, and then taken it from there - maybe we wouldn't have had time to read a story because of his dawdling...or maybe he would have gone to bed without pants on that night. But more often than not, the power struggle really isnt' worth it. I save my trump cards and authority for things that really matter to me, like gettign to appointments on time, being in the car seat in the car, and holding my hand in public. As I said I'm not completely consensual, but I do strive to be so as much as I'm personally capable.

I guess I'd have to know the specific situation, and the child's reason behind not cooperating before I'd say how I'd address it.

Edited to add: Obviously I am not perfect, and sometimes fall short of the ideals above. But, I go into situations thinking the best of my child, thinking that he has good intentions, and not that he's being difficult just for the heck of it.

Edited a second time to add: When DS was too young to be able to do things himself like pick things up, I'd state my request nonetheless, and then *help* him do it, do it together, instead of me just doing it....which I think was early modeling of the cooperative and helpful atmosphere we strive for here. I really do think it helped, expecting and encouraging him to participate from very early on. When he got to the age where he was physically more capable but still too young to be expected to really follow through on his own, I would again gently assist him in doing things that I asked him, to show him what I expected. It's the old "get off your butt" parenting, instead of just hounding him until I got snippy, or doing it myself and resenting it.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

It is really hard for me answer the questions that some of you pose because I am not experiencing the attitudes, power struggles and refusals that you keep bringing up. And I think the primary reason that I don't experience them is because I chose to create a cooperative environment for my child. One where she isn't just ordered to do stuff and if she doesn't then she is punished or treated disrespecfully. I would never ever throw trash into her room as a "lesson". I have more respect for my child than that I want to and have raised a child that people want to be around. Not one that thinks that it's her against the world because everyone is out to get her and demean her.

I do not equate respect with obedience. I haven't raised my kid to just blindly do what I tell her, we discuss and her opinion is important, we facilitate what is the best course of action together. That doesnt' mean she is 100% responsible, she does leave trash on the counter ect sometimes but if I mention it she immediately picks it up although usually I mention it and throw it away myself at the same time because I'm only bringing it up as a reminder for next time not as some lesson on how bad and disrespectful she is. I personally find some of the stuff posted in this thread shaming to children very us vs them and the antithesis of GD.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:

But, I go into situations thinking the best of my child, thinking that he has good intentions, and not that he's being difficult just for the heck of it.
Exactly


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
It is really hard for me answer the questions that some of you pose because I am not experiencing the attitudes, power struggles and refusals that you keep bringing up. And I think the primary reason that I don't experience them is because I chose to create a cooperative environment for my child. One where she isn't just ordered to do stuff and if she doesn't then she is punished or treated disrespecfully. I would never ever throw trash into her room as a "lesson". I have more respect for my child than that I want to and have raised a child that people want to be around. Not one that thinks that it's her against the world because everyone is out to get her and demean her.

I do not equate respect with obedience. I haven't raised my kid to just blindly do what I tell her, we discuss and her opinion is important, we facilitate what is the best course of action together. That doesnt' mean she is 100% responsible, she does leave trash on the counter ect sometimes but if I mention it she immediately picks it up although usually I mention it and throw it away myself at the same time because I'm only bringing it up as a reminder for next time not as some lesson on how bad and disrespectful she is. I personally find some of the stuff posted in this thread shaming to children very us vs them and the antithesis of GD.


I am glad to hear you have never experienced the rebellion or refusal just b/c they can type attitude.

My parents had seven kids. Two of us were very cooperative and never rebelled at all. Two of us rebelled a bit, but nothing major. Two were pretty big on rebellion and caused more than one long night for my parents. The last one ended up in foster care for six months b/c nothing they did would get through to her. We were all raised with the same expectations and rules.

Guess that's why they say all kids are different.


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
I am glad to hear you have never experienced the rebellion or refusal just b/c they can type attitude.

My parents had seven kids. Two of us were very cooperative and never rebelled at all. Two of us rebelled a bit, but nothing major. Two were pretty big on rebellion and caused more than one long night for my parents. The last one ended up in foster care for six months b/c nothing they did would get through to her. We were all raised with the same expectations and rules.

Guess that's why they say all kids are different.

Thanks for that, because I also chose to create a cooperative environment for my children. One where they are not just ordered to do stuff and if they don't want then they are punished or treated disrespectfully. I have more respect for my children as well and want to have raised children that people want to be around. I also do not equate respect with obedience. Nor, have I raised my kids to just blindly do what I tell them. But these are struggles that we do face. My son struggles so badly for power. It is practically impossible to get him to say, take a shower.


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## grainne (Dec 2, 2006)

THANK YOU ,THANK YOU!!I couldn't believe my eyes when I came across this thread. What is up with kids, wrappers, and SO's? This exact thing happened at our house . A Skittle wrapper was the demise of Christmas.SO(age 37) had a fit. My ds (age 13) didn't throw a fit ,wasn't rude, he picked it up and threw it away. My SO was an a## about it and threw a temper tantrum over some thing small. It was ridiculous and made me very mad.
Thank you all for the wonderful insight you have provided. I sat down with SO and we read this thread together. We talked about how he could have handled the situation better and what the heck was going through his mind during his freakout. It was soooo helpful to show him that we are not alone in the struggle to get kids to throw their candy wrappers away. I have tried to model how I want my kids parented but he gets stuck in the ruts of how he was treated as a child (verbally abused) and then he and I get nowhere. It was good to show him this. I think seeing that others have the same problems and all of the different ways of dealing with them has made him more willing to try a new approach the next time.
Namste,
Grainne


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grainne* 
THANK YOU ,THANK YOU!!I couldn't believe my eyes when I came across this thread. What is up with kids, wrappers, and SO's? This exact thing happened at our house . A Skittle wrapper was the demise of Christmas.SO(age 37) had a fit. My ds (age 13) didn't throw a fit ,wasn't rude, he picked it up and threw it away. My SO was an a## about it and threw a temper tantrum over some thing small. It was ridiculous and made me very mad.
Thank you all for the wonderful insight you have provided. I sat down with SO and we read this thread together. We talked about how he could have handled the situation better and what the heck was going through his mind during his freakout. It was soooo helpful to show him that we are not alone in the struggle to get kids to throw their candy wrappers away. I have tried to model how I want my kids parented but he gets stuck in the ruts of how he was treated as a child (verbally abused) and then he and I get nowhere. It was good to show him this. I think seeing that others have the same problems and all of the different ways of dealing with them has made him more willing to try a new approach the next time.
Namste,
Grainne

Welcome aboard. I am glad that you recognize all the ways to handle it, and even more glad that your husband gleaned something from the thread

:0)

welcome to Mothering


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## kimiij (Jun 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cuddleluvinma* 
OK, here is the situation...my dh asks my dd who's wrapper is on the floor. Dd says that it is her ad her friends. Dh says "So, what needs to be done about it being thrown on the floor?" . Dd says that it wasnt thrown on the floor. Dh says it doesn't matter how it got there, that it is hers and it needs to be picked up. Dd mimicks back what he says. Dh then says that he doesn't want to be talked to that way and that if she doesn't pick it up the she will have to deal with the consiquenses. She says "no!" He tells her again that she need s to go to her room. she says no again. dh says that she needs to go to her room and that she can forget about getting to play with her friends for the rest of the day. Dd then get really angry and yells and Dh does the same. this is when I came out and say "whoa guys! Stop. I'm trying to put the baby down for a nap and now he can't because of the yelling." I try and get them to calm down but dh says that I need to be talking to dd instead of him. I say that no one should be yelling. they are sill going at it while I'm trying to say this. I tell dd to go to her room so that she can calm down and so that we can all have a break to think for a minute. I said it in a way that would not be offensive to her. So that she knew that I wasn't just punishing her but just wanted everyone to have a break. She went. I then ask dh to go into the other room so that we can talk about it. He says that he is not the one needing the talk, that dd does. I say that he has always gotten mad at me when I have talked to her first in the past and that I wanted to get the story from him first. He then comes and tells me what happened. I said that nomatter how she is responding that we as parents need to be the example and keep our calm. That yelling back is not the best way to deal with the situation. He is angry that I am lecturing him. I say tha I will talk to her about the way that she responded to him. So I did. She goes down to apoligise. Then I go down after giving them some time. She goes upstairs after alittle while. I tell dh that he still looks angry. He says that he is dissapointed and that he feels bad that she can't go to the sleepover that she was planning on going to. I am quiet. He says that Ineed to support him on the decision though.

I think that your daughter was rude to your husband from the beginning (mimicking him? how is that acceptable). If he wants her to pick something up, she should pick it up.

"She shouldn't have to go to her room if she doesn't want to"?-- That's what's called a consequence!

I would not argue with DH in front of DD about how to parent DD. It belittles him and shows her that she can get away with rudeness. I cannot stress the importance of United Fronts! Even if that means, you two stepping away from the situation and telling your daughter that you will speak to her later about the incident.


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