# Rant: A 2 year old punished by going to bed without dinner.



## Mommay (Jul 29, 2004)

Yes it's true. One of the moms that I have playgroup with actually did this. Actually, her dd is 23 months old, not yet 2. I know some of us complain sometimes about mainstream methods, but this is outrageous, right?

She said she did this because dd was being "bad".









I've been trying to be tolerant of the different ways the other moms in the playgroup handle their kids, but I'm not sure how long I can do this. I feel like I'm participating in the wrongness of it all by sitting there and watching it happen without intervening. Not only this, but with stuff like spanking and general disrespect towards her dd. The unspoken rules of the group is that moms will not tell other moms how to raise their kids. In fact, I once confronted this particular mom because she was yelling at my ds. I told her that she should leave the disciplining up to me. Other moms in the group also certainly do not "get" my extended nursing and "lax" disciplining (whereas some definitely do). So although no one is rude to me, I'm starting to feel that my time would be better spent doing one on one stuff with ds or doing stuff with people I do enjoy. But I've built a relationship with these moms and feel that I should teach ds to hold on to friends and to embrace people even if they do not agree with you or do things your way.

What would you do? We need to teach our kids about diversity, right? I feel like I shouldn't run away every time I see a mom do things that I don't agree with.


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## Alegria (Jul 21, 2002)

I say run! Can't talk now dd calling


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## Vermillion (Mar 12, 2005)

I say run too&#8230; I don't think the diversity thing is necessarily true in situations like this either. Isn't diversity supposed to be a positive, enriching thing in one's life? Putting up with others who disrespect their children isn't a good example of positive diversity, in my mind anyway. If that is diversity than I'd rather not have it.

I don't need to agree with people that I like on everything and I can tolerate even embrace many differences, but&#8230;. The way a person treats a child is a deal breaker for me. I have no tolerance for people who mistreat their children. And yes, what I consider mistreatment others may not, but those are my feelings and I can not ignore them for the sake of understanding and getting along, You know?


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## hunnybumm (Nov 1, 2003)

Wouldn't this be considered neglect in a child so young? A two year old missing a meal when he/she is hungry is more than punishment it's down right abuse. I don't think any child should have food withheld and especially not as a punishment, but a two year old? I would have a hard time not saying something.

As far as not going to the group that is something you will have to decide for yourself I don't think any of us can tell you what is right for you or DS.


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## Sarihah (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hunnybumm*
I don't think any child should have food withheld and especially not as a punishment, but a two year old? I would have a hard time not saying something.


I'm right there with you. Food is a requirement for life, and our children are dependent upon us to provide them with sustenance. Manipulating them by exploiting their dependence is such a ridiculous thing to do.

What you'll decide about your group is tricky to me, and I'll tell you why. If you remove yourself from the group you remove your influence, however small, in these children's lives. Over time, children can be deeply impacted by observing adults who do things differently.

My own sister does so many things with her children that I know any child psychologist would tell you are absolutely horrible. She is bull headed and won't listen to anyone. Saying something only causes her to cut off contact with her kids for a period of time, sometimes a long time. Then the children are robbed of the influence of spending time in a home where respect of ALL members is just a way of life. As much as I intensely dislike my sister, and I have to be honest, I do, I don't get involved much because it's a fruitless endeavor when I do. I just hope to show the children another way. In my own life, seeing another way was enough to start me on a completely different path that broke the cycle for my daughter and hopefully for all of my descendents.

I know this is different, because this is my SISTER, but it's just something that I throw out there for your consideration.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Sarihah, everything you said. Your sister sounds very much like mine.


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## Starr (Mar 16, 2005)

I completely agree with the no giving food scenario being entirely inappropriate and a violation to the childs well being. However I would try to stay in the group, I know it may be hard sitting there and not interveening but just you being there and showing them that there is a better way to handle things is important. They may not "get it" the first time or the 50th time, but eventually if you stick it through and stay consistant and let them know you are willing to help them change, one or two may come around. Maybe instead of phrasing things like, "I do the disciplining" Oops just realized she was talking to YOUR child sorry, but maybe when you see something starting suggest, "I had a similar problem with ____ I found the best way to handle was to _______." That might let them know you can relate to them and your able to bring up an alternative discipline. HTH.


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## Sarihah (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac*
Sarihah, everything you said. Your sister sounds very much like mine.


I feel for you abac. It's one of the most painful aspects of my life, and totally out of my control.


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## Mommay (Jul 29, 2004)

I can write pages about the no food as punishment thing. It is one of the worst forms of control for the very fact that it is a necessity and can lead to eating disorders, etc. When dh heard about it, he was like, should we call social services? My response was that sadly enough, it is probably a more normal type of punishment than we would think, though 2 years old! Come on.

I can understand the people who say run because if it wasn't for ds, I probably would just blow her off and say it's not worth it. But I really feel duty-bound to not give up on people, again, even if they seem to be horrid. I mean ds will have horrible kids in his classroom, right? And horrible teachers. He'll have to make do.

For those of you who say that I should stick it out, is there a reason for me to do so beyond my usefulness to the other mothers? I really need a reason for myself.

Vermillion - But is it true diversity if I approve of whatever I'm getting? I feel that diversity is not necessarily positive as is reflected in the world at large. I know ds is young, and I would never let him alone with this mom, but I think he's not too young to know that other moms do things differently. But I agree that the way a mom treats her kids is very important in determining compatibility. I suppose that is why I'm so torn.

Sarihah - Sorry to hear about your sis. I actually have a great relationship with my sister and our kids love each other. But I have heard of sisters who can't get along, and it makes for a very unhappy situation. I can understand why you want to try to stay in her life for her kids, but what do you get out of it? Is it worthwhile for you too?

Starr - She feels the same way of me as I of her. I am as likely to take her advice as she of me. So maybe I wouldn't influence her at all except maybe to force her more the other way because she does think I'm neglectful (because I don't tell ds what to do all the time) and she probably thinks I continue to nurse ds for my own kicks.


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## Starr (Mar 16, 2005)

I also think that staying around and sticking through it you are teaching your child a valuable lesson. That hey not everyone is like us. You are exposing them to an entire differently group of women and contrasting ideas. You are showing your child how some not so nice mommies may parent and how you yourself are helping them to change. You are also teaching them not to run away from something that isn't familiar to them. I don't think your child will be scarred in any way emotionally but it gives he/she a chance to play and socialize with other children who they may not have so much in common with. This will help them make friends easier in the future. You are also teaching them that its ok to hang out with other people not necesarily like you. Especially if your child has already made friends with some of the other children it would be difficult to not let them play together because of the differences. Does all this ranting make sense? Didn't realize I got carried away. :LOL


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## Sarihah (May 22, 2005)

I think my daughter appreciates me more because of the contrast between our way of life and the ways of people around us. Without question, she realizes that there are a lot of mothers who do things very differently than I do, and she articulates her satisfaction with our home and our lives in ways that are extremely precious and gratifying to me.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I wouldn't stick it out. I know I'm in the minority here. I would tell your friends in the group that you are leaving because you couldn't handle the "bed without dinner" for a two year old story and I would find a new group.

I wouldn't say that about just anything, but this pushes my buttons all over the place. I also don't see the value in exposing a two year old to people who punish this way. I expose my two year old to people from different racial, religious, ethnic and class backgrounds, people who speak different languages, people who watch TV or eat meat (we don't), people who say ridiculous though well-intentioned sexist things to him. But I don't see any value in exposing him to parents who yell at children who aren't even in their family, and who treat their own children even worse. Not the right kind of diversity!


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## Vermillion (Mar 12, 2005)

I agree with Captain Optimism.

Quote:

Vermillion - But is it true diversity if I approve of whatever I'm getting? I feel that diversity is not necessarily positive as is reflected in the world at large. I know ds is young, and I would never let him alone with this mom, but I think he's not too young to know that other moms do things differently. But I agree that the way a mom treats her kids is very important in determining compatibility. I suppose that is why I'm so torn.
Regarding diversity I definitely don't feel that you have to always only approve of what you're getting, there is just a line of what is acceptable and what is not for the sake of diversity. JMO.

Like, I am not really thrilled when I see other moms giving their children soda and chips every day for a snack. It isn't something I would do, but it isn't something that would make me like that person any less. I could deal with that.

Hitting (spanking), withholding food, shaming, etc. Things like that I DO consider to be abuse. Some may disagree but that's ok. So, yes, technically by exposing your kids to this it is diversity, something different than yourself/family, but is it worth a lesson in diversity to be exposed to violence and/or abuse? I don't think so, but that's just me.

I don't think my child needs to be exposed to that sort of thing to learn any kind of lesson. I would rather treat him well and have him exposed to others who treat kids well and I'll take my chances that he will learn better that way. He can see crap like that when he gets older, it will be inevitable at some point, but for now while he is little I see nothing valuable about exposing him to violence and abuse towards children.

JMO!


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## mermommy (Aug 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
I wouldn't stick it out. I know I'm in the minority here. I would tell your friends in the group that you are leaving because you couldn't handle the "bed without dinner" for a two year old story and I would find a new group.

I wouldn't say that about just anything, but this pushes my buttons all over the place. I also don't see the value in exposing a two year old to people who punish this way. I expose my two year old to people from different racial, religious, ethnic and class backgrounds, people who speak different languages, people who watch TV or eat meat (we don't), people who say ridiculous though well-intentioned sexist things to him. But I don't see any value in exposing him to parents who yell at children who aren't even in their family, and who treat their own children even worse. Not the right kind of diversity!


ITA


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## Sarihah (May 22, 2005)

Did the OP's son witness this two year old being sent to bed without any dinner? I got the impression that the OP was told that this had happened, without being present at the time that it occurred.

If you decide to eschew contact with people who parent in ways that you are strongly opposed to, whether or not you are present when these parents do things that you know are wrong, what's left for you?

I don't know about you, and I hope I don't come off in an ugly way, but there aren't too many people in my world who parent the way that I think parenting should be done. I also know a lot of people in marriages and relationships that I don't think are very healthy for either the adults or the children. Maybe I live in a very dysfunctional corner of the world.







:

But these people have other aspects to their beings, they aren't ONLY these negative characteristics and traits.


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## Vermillion (Mar 12, 2005)

merging posts....


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## Vermillion (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sarihah*
Did the OP's son witness this two year old being sent to bed without any dinner? I got the impression that the OP was told that this had happened, without being present at the time that it occurred.


Perhaps her child didn't witness this one particular event, but he is likely to witness other negative things from people who have no problems treating kids with such disrespect, such as-

From OP-

Quote:

In fact, I once confronted this particular mom because she was yelling at my ds.
Sariah-

Quote:

If you decide to eschew contact with people who parent in ways that you are strongly opposed to, whether or not you are present when these parents do things that you know are wrong, *what's left for you?*

Way less stress and lower blood pressure for starters!

Quote:

But these people have other aspects to their beings, they aren't ONLY these negative characteristics and traits.
Maybe so, but sometimes the negatives far outweigh any positives. Abuse and mistreatment towards children is definately a perfect example of "not worth the good stuff" in my book.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I say stay, too. I know that you have an unspoken policy of not telling each other how to raise your kids, but is a gasp and shocked expression out of the question? Maybe an eye roll? Maybe a "Oh, poor dear child!"? You may be able to subtly influence this mother and how she parents. If by nothing other than setting a good example.


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## mom2alicia (Nov 30, 2004)

i have found myself in a similar situation. at first the differences were tolerable. but as the kids have gotten older it has gotten to the point where i don't feel any support or encouragement from the group. so i'm not getting what i need from it and my daughter doesn't like playing with some of the kids because they are too aggressive. so i have been working my way out of the group gradually and just getting together with a couple of the other moms in the group for one on one playdates. these particular moms are also working their way out of the group for the same reason. we find hanging out with each other supportive and encouraging and our kids play pretty well together. i don't want to leave the group abruptly because we have been in the group for two years now and i don't want there to be hurt feelings. it is also a small town and i'm bound to run into them everywhere. so i've just been busy and not able to go all the time and pretty soon i plan to let them know that we are just too busy now that my dd has other activities and can't commit to a weekly playgroup anymore. i think if you find a relationship is unhealthy, it is best to end it. i'd like to be able to maintain the relationship enough so that we can chat when we see other out and about and are at the same birthday parties, etc. but i don't want to maintain the relationship to the point of getting together weekly. i actually like all of the women in the group, some more than others. but i don't dislike anyone in it. but as far as being a part of a regular on going group with them. it just isn't working. the few of us in the group that do get on well together are supporting each other in our efforts to parent, while it feels like the rest of the group is discouraging it.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sarihah*
If you decide to eschew contact with people who parent in ways that you are strongly opposed to, whether or not you are present when these parents do things that you know are wrong, what's left for you?

I don't know about you, and I hope I don't come off in an ugly way, but there aren't too many people in my world who parent the way that I think parenting should be done. I also know a lot of people in marriages and relationships that I don't think are very healthy for either the adults or the children. Maybe I live in a very dysfunctional corner of the world.







:

But these people have other aspects to their beings, they aren't ONLY these negative characteristics and traits.

Well, your milage may vary, as is the common expression---there are just some things that push my buttons, that exceed my tolerance. I could even handle a mom saying, "I potched him when he ran into the street" better than "she was being 'bad' so I sent her to bed without dinner."


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## Sarihah (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
Well, your milage may vary, as is the common expression---there are just some things that push my buttons, that exceed my tolerance. I could even handle a mom saying, "I potched him when he ran into the street" better than "she was being 'bad' so I sent her to bed without dinner."


Oh, I agree. I wouldn't nod vaguely or just sit there with a disapproving look on my face. But my goal would be to converse with the woman in such a way that she did not immediately become defensive and shut down. I can do this now, at this stage of my life, but it didn't come naturally to me. My Chinese astrology sign is the Tiger, and I would have really lashed out at a person who did something like this at one time in my life, but I think I know a better way to deal with it now.

By keeping the channels of communication open, I would hope to be able to influence her way of thinking and perhaps to offer alternatives that she had not considered...not to mention, maybe increase her awareness of what to expect of a two year old developmentally.

On a bit of a tangent, it amazes me how people will project adult motives onto a small child, seeing 'defiance' when the child is simply too young to be expected to have developed much impulse control.


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## Mommay (Jul 29, 2004)

All this discussion has given me a lot to think about. Thank you, thank you all for such poignant comments and thoughts.

Mom2alicia, your situation sounds just like mine, and I have daydreamed about doing just what you're doing countless number of times. Because although I have known them for over a year and a half, they, in the end, really aren't family, and I'm not bound to work things out in the way Sarihah might feel she has to work things out with her sis. Honestly, Sarihah, I think what you're doing is right and good, but it also sounds like an awful lot of work and stress. I can tell just from the posts you've made here.

One thing that I think is getting lost in the shuffle a bit is what is best for ds. (!) I took him out of daycare in April. He was going part time, and seemed to enjoy the kids and caretakers there, but never asked for them once after he left. He seems happy as a clam to be with me and my baby care share partner. But I wonder if he doesn't feel that he's lost them somehow. I feel like I would be inflicting loss upon him again if I abruptly stopped hanging out with the playgroup. But maybe not. How are you going to deal with that Mom2alicia? Actually, I've noticed that ds does not seem all that close to any of the kids, but that may be because he's still in parallel play mode. He certainly is not attached to them like he is to his cousins and one or two other kids his age. So maybe he wouldn't miss them at all.

The offending mom and I have had a history. I didn't mention it, but I actually introduced her to the group! Oh boy. She seemed AP enough, and she does breastfeed and babywear (after having met me and the other ap moms of the group). But whatever AP philosophy she thinks she has, it is really subverted by her own bizarre personality. But the other moms are very nice, and have not shown any signs of displeasure with her as I feel towards her. I feel like I'm in lala cuckoo land sometimes being in that group. I would feel more justified if one of the other moms would look at me and say what the f*** is she thinking?

But I do agree with Sarihah that the bad parts are only one aspect of the whole picture. It's all greys. She is not a monster after all. She loves her kid, is very affectionate, praises to the heavens (that's another story), and really dotes on her dd. These things are also not my style except for the affectionate part, but we're talking about a mom who loves her kid as much as we all do.

I haven't decided yet, but I'm leaning towards slowly getting away from the group. I have a finite time to spend with people. There are plenty of moms out there who I can respect and get along with, why stress myself out like this? I can model for ds that he has choices when it comes to friends.

Sorry this was so long.


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## Mommay (Jul 29, 2004)

BTW captain optimism, I really liked everything you had to say about what constitutes diversity. I was largely in agreement.


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## CJNeeley (Jun 8, 2005)

I'd say you may not need to run but you may need to consider the options available if you leave in the near future. Trying to stick it out if it's beneficial to you and/or your son is a great idea but it still may not workout, so there's no harm in researching other groups.

I can understand wanting to provide your child with exposure to a diverse environment and I don't feel that diversity must be 'positive' to be benifical. A lot can be learned from from 'negative' experiences IF your child is old enough for you to explain them and for the child to understand that not everyone is that way.

I think right now at 2 your child is probably too young to even get that this mom did something 'negative' from a story should he have even been close enough to overhear the story, so more than likely he's not aware anything happened. However, if your child was older or just highly aware verbally he could easily have understood that this was a scary thing but not totally understood that you wouldn't do it to him (or that all moms aren't that way) and that could have been a really scary thing for him to be second guessing himself afraid if he did something "bad" you wouldn't feed him. So if this is the kind of woman who likes to 'brag' a lot about how harshly she disciplines her child, then you may be setting him up for a scary situation just as much as if there were someone in the group who could at any given moment smack their child upside the head--hearing something bad can be just as harmful as seeing something bad. There are somethings young children shouldn't have to see or hear (especially if you know they are coming and can do something preventative about it) because they just aren't ready to handle them. And you aren't teaching a child to run from people/things he/she doesn't like by removing them from a harmful situation, so don't be afraid of that if you have to.

So I say listen to your gut, if you think you can handle it you probably can. If you have an eerie feeling that it really won't be ok, leave quickly and guilt free because it probably won't. And don't discredit your feelings about his woman either. If you just dislike her it's easy enough to deal with her anyway, but if there is actually bad blood between the two of you it will do your son no good to go to a playgroup where he always sees mommy get tense and stressed out--especially if you leave irritable from having to deal with her--kids are really perceptive and your distress will become his distress even if you never say anything. So if you think you can't honestly grin and bear it without feeling like you are endorsing something you're not ok with, or without exhausting all your reserves on something that should be a pleasant excursion out of the house (especially if you don't get an additional chance to get out in a rejuventating experience), or if you don't think you can continue to refrain from saying something the next time she tells one of her stories, then it's probably best for you--and therefore your son as well--to find another activity or playgroup to attend.

It's a really tough call, but if you follow your heart after weighing the pros and cons in your mind then you've really made the best decision you can. So regardless of if you choose to stay or go, try to trust your decision and try not "what if..." yourself to death about the other choice. Good luck, CJ


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

I'd leave the group and establish relationships with more like-minded moms.

No one has mentioned this (I don't think): It could be a POSITIVE learning experience to leave the group because you feel that it isn't good for you to be there. What would you rather: your son to have an allegiance for whomever he first befriends, or him to be discriminating and end friendships if the friend does things he thinks are rotten? I sure wish that I was more discriminating with my friends when I was growing up. Choosing bad friends can impact life in a horrendous way. Most people seem really nice when we first meet them; heck, I'd even say that most people are pretty nice and well-intentioned. But they aren't all positive influences in our lives.

I've been thinking about the martyr AP'er/GD'er issue lately, i.e., trying to convince nonAP/GD people to do the same. This is a wonderful thing to do. I don't think all AP'ers and GD'ers need to have it as their mission, however. I like to write and will probably write some AP/GD philosophy papers at some time. I do not like trying to sway CIO moms or spanking moms to accept AP/GD -- at least not in person. I think that it is likely to come off the wrong way anyway if you aren't genuinely interested in changing them. Trying to help someone (who probably doesn't want help!) is a huge challenge and takes a lot of dedication. For the right person, this is a rewarding and mostly pleasant thing to do. For me, it's stressful and not fun at all. I just end up having bad thoughts about how horrible some people can be to their children and yada yada yada. From this place, how can I convince someone to change? I'm glad that there are people out there who make this their mission. I hope to do something for the cause (as it were) at some point, but it isn't likely to be in the trenches by way of befriending nonAP/GDers and trying to guide them to the light. Then again just being out there in the world and living AP/GD exerts its own statement and evidence that these methods are awesome and work beautifully. I'd much rather give a short remark in favour of AP/GD to a stranger than stress myself out by spending a lot of time with moms I don't fully respect.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

I am amazed at how many people think it's OK to tell a child they cannot eat as punishment. It really irks me.


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## alicia622 (May 8, 2005)

I think such behavior requires a call to child protective. I don't agree with withholding meals as a consequence for behavior and at 23 months it is 100% abusive (IMO). I am a mandated reporter so calling CPS is a normal part of life for me. I don't know if you could do this, but in my job, I always let the family know when i have to make a report. I also tell them that it is up to the stste to determine whether or not they will investigate. I doubt I could tell someone I was calling in your situation though. Another thought is to call the state hotline and ask them if with holding food to a two year old is considered abuse/neglect. Sometimes it can help you decide what to do before giving any names.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.


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## Sarihah (May 22, 2005)

Alicia622 said;I think such behavior requires a call to child protective.

I'd like to remind you of the OP's remarks regarding this mother.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goepark*
the bad parts are only one aspect of the whole picture. It's all greys. She is not a monster after all. She loves her kid, is very affectionate, praises to the heavens (that's another story), and really dotes on her dd. These things are also not my style except for the affectionate part, but we're talking about a mom who loves her kid as much as we all do.

Do you know anybody who, as a child, endured the foster care system? I do. Too bad you can't talk to her because if you did you might be a little less gung ho about involving the government in private lives. That's an action to be reserved for the worst scenarios, IMO. Whatever this mother's mistake, she loves and nurtures her child in ways that the government will never do.


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## alicia622 (May 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sarihah*
Alicia622 said;I think such behavior requires a call to child protective.

I'd like to remind you of the OP's remarks regarding this mother.

Do you know anybody who, as a child, endured the foster care system? I do. Too bad you can't talk to her because if you did you might be a little less gung ho about involving the government in private lives. That's an action to be reserved for the worst scenarios, IMO. Whatever this mother's mistake, she loves and nurtures her child in ways that the government will never do.

I agree that talking with the mother would be the most ideal. I still, as a manadated reporter, would feel compelled to report. I actually work with quite closely with child protective and have worked with many children in the foster care system although I don't know any adults that lived through it. Just calling CPS does not mean the children will be taken away. It takes a lot than one call to get any action. If the case did get investigated, the state would likely offer services to help teach the parent different techniques to discipline. Contrary to popular belief the state is actually out there to help children, not to rip them out of their home. The system is far from a good one but it's what we have. The only way to make it better is to be vocal about getting changes.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sarihah*
I'd like to remind you of the OP's remarks regarding this mother.

Do you know anybody who, as a child, endured the foster care system? I do. Too bad you can't talk to her because if you did you might be a little less gung ho about involving the government in private lives. That's an action to be reserved for the worst scenarios, IMO. Whatever this mother's mistake, she loves and nurtures her child in ways that the government will never do


Very good point.


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## De-lovely (Jan 8, 2005)

UNBELIEVABLE! Where do mothers come up with this s***? I can say however that I agree with your influence in this playgroup and saying something to this mother may reallly spark interest and/or hot debate about GD and in any case I think thats productive.I think if your relationships with these women are established as you put it,then its definetly something you need to bring up.Maybe by even explaining what you know about GD and how it pertains specifically to a 2 year,you know what they understand and all that.I guess it is possible that this mother doesnt?!MAYBE even you will relieve some of the other moms in this group that feel the same way and dont have the guts to stand up for this baby! Precious girl! How awful! Then after all has been said, the reaction of the group and the mother would determine if I left or not...you never know you could start a new wave of GD moms?! Fat chance,eh? Still....I would give a shot.Wealth is knowledge.


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## mama_daba (Dec 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alicia622*
I think such behavior requires a call to child protective. I don't agree with withholding meals as a consequence for behavior and at 23 months it is 100% abusive (IMO). I am a mandated reporter so calling CPS is a normal part of life for me. I don't know if you could do this, but in my job, I always let the family know when i have to make a report. I also tell them that it is up to the stste to determine whether or not they will investigate. I doubt I could tell someone I was calling in your situation though. Another thought is to call the state hotline and ask them if with holding food to a two year old is considered abuse/neglect. Sometimes it can help you decide what to do before giving any names.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.


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## Victorian (Jan 2, 2003)

as a mandatory reporter, I also would call and ask them if it is worth making a report over. FTR all mothers love their children. My sister has a foster son right now that was breastfeed, co-slept with, loved, and had both his legs broken, was strangled and had multiple ribs cracked. Life is not as straight forward as you think. And neglect is the most common form of abuse...and that is what withholding food is...neglect.

In regards to your situation: run!!!! Sticking around you are not *teaching* them anything. You ARE teaching your sweet baby that what they do is OK. Children aborb this stuff more than we realize. Especially the spanking and yelling stuff.

You said that some of the other moms nurse and GD? Can you start a splinter off group with them? Even 3 other moms would be a wonderful playgroup. Is your town that small? Try the FYT area here. Us PDX moms get together regularly for wonderful playdays where no one spanks, yells and there is nursing galore!


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## Mommay (Jul 29, 2004)

Everyone seems to agree that withholding food from a 2 yo as a punishment is wrong, but no one seems to agree whether I should maintain a relationship with a mom who would do that. I still don't know that. Yesterday, it was my turn to drop off a dinner for this mom, J., as she had a baby two weeks ago (uh oh). She was pleasant, I was pleasant, and it was nice to be able to help a new mother out. It's again not so black and white, and it's nice to be a part of a group that does want to help each other out.

But what is the saying? The road to hell is paved with good intentions...something like that. Though in this case it would be love for a child.

I don't think I could call protective services. Maybe I should, but I probably won't. I suppose if I see an escalation, I'll consider it, but there is not enough of an abusive situation to call for that IMO. I may try to advise her more about what I think she's doing, but I think that'll be really hard as she is not predisposed to my point of view at all. Would you listen to advice from this mom? Well, she feels the same way about me. She abhors (though doesn't say out loud) my lack of ostensible discipline and the extended breastfeeding, etc. In fact, I get the feeling she would do the very opposite of any advice I'd have.

I do see the other two moms "on the side", but one of the moms is moving out of town, and the other mom and I have different personalities, though we do see each other in various NFL type groups and acitivities. I also have friends outside the group and enjoy their company. That's another reason to leave the playgroup. Why not spend more time with my other friends? Has it become that ingrained a habit to go to playgroup every week? The mom with a personality different from mine is also very focused on being "nice". So she wants to be "nice" to everyone, and never say a bad word no matter what. So I wouldn't say anything negative about J. to her. She's much too sweet for that.

As an aside, another thing that happened between us that caused a lot tension (she actually tried to ignore me even when I said hello. Whenever I tried to speak, she would loudly speak over me







- She's a bit nuts) is that she picked out the same name I had planned to name any fututre daughter for her own daughter, who was just born. She claimed that she never heard me tell everyone that that would have my ds' name had he been a girl (in fact, I was sure of the girl's name, but not the boy's name). I took her aside and told her that I was surprised about her choice and that she is certainly free to name her daughter anything. But whatever she chose to do, I was planning to use that name in the future, so it was her choice. That's when she stopped talking to me. I know it's petty, but just imagine someone you had not gotten along with coming along and "stealing" your name! I sound so territorial. Anyway, had no idea what she would do, but she chose another name in the end. By then, I would have been okay with whatever she wanted to do, but I was glad to sidestep that awkward situation.

Anyway, thank you all again for your great insights, and I am still in the middle of my deliberations about this. I guess I feel that this will define how I choose to handle similar situations in the future, so I want to take the right steps.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

I would simply discuss the topic with her and educate her. Sometimes, when our parents did things with us, we think it is OK for us in turn to do the same with our children - we accept them as normal parts of the parent/child/teaching relationship. Like spanking, washing mouths out with soap, or yelling. Without KNOWING it is wrong, she doens't REALIZE in fact that she is doing anything wrong.


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## Mommay (Jul 29, 2004)

Actually, her history is that she had a father who treated her too much like a friend, and maybe did not give her enough boundaries. Now she feels she has to set limits, even if it be excessive in somepeople's opinions.

I think going too far away from your parents (so as to be defined by them!), is also a dangerous thing.


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