# so embarrassing, social workers detained me in the subway threatening to call the police



## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

This is so embarassing. I was on the way to an attachment parenting meeting too. I was in the subway with my two kids in a stroller.

What i did: (and i dont condone it, but it wasnt that bad).
Threw 2 yo ds' coat at him, and said in a raised, stern voice-stop throwing your coat out of the stroller! I put my hand on him very lightly which would have looked like a push, a very light one. I didnt actually push or hit him, because i dont believe in doing things like that. I do not hit or push my kids. Yes, I should not have raised my voice, shouldnt have put my hand on him in a threatening way, shouldnt have thrown the coat at him (it would not have hurt) ...should have kept my calm after he had thrown his coat out of the stroller for the nth time.

Here's what happened next-two women came over to me saying they were social workers and that they were mandated reporters. One woman said she wanted to talk to me.

The thing is, i was in a hurry as it was. I wasnt in the mood for a lecture from a total stranger, telling me things i already know and believe. First mistake.

I said, im in a hurry, sorry, i dont have time to listen to you.

She grabbed my stroller and wouldnt let me go. She then threatened to call the police.

Wow! I was so incensed, my blood boiling. Has anyone stopped you like that, effectively detaining you? A total stranger? Are social workers allowed to do that?

I raised my voice to her, and said let go of my stroller!
She said, alright, ill call the police then.

In the meantime, both boys , 2 and 5, start crying.

I said to her, you are making them cry. You must let go of my stroller, you have no right to do this!

So i asked my son, why are you crying. He says, mommy, i want to go.
See! I said to her, you mare making him cry, please let us go.

She said, you could make him say anything,
and then said, i cant let you go until you calm down.
I said, i understand what youre trying to do, but you are not helping here.

Eventually, they let me go only after i had to stand there and pretend to not be extremely incensed at them, and simply not say anything at all









As i left, i said, you are abusing your power.

So they followed me to the elevator, I said, stop following me!
One of them kept threatening to call the police, the other one seemed smarter, and just said, have a nice day.

I cant believe this happened. What do you think?

(flame me if you like for losing my cool with my 2yo, maybe i should have just listened to the social worker, but do i have a legal obligation to do so? )


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## ErinYay (Aug 21, 2008)

You poor thing. I'm so sorry that happened!

Your story has angered me a little, as I so clearly remember what it was like to watch people truly be physically and verbally abusive to their little ones on the train in NYC, while knowing that saying something was likely to escalate the violence.

I don't know what they hope to accomplish by taking such an aggressive tactic- if you're a good parent who is caught in a bad moment, or a lousy parent caught in a normal moment, I don't think anyone is likely to respond well to such bullying. I *know* there are kids who desperately need non-parental advocates, but it seems like an awful idea to approach it like that.










eta: If anyone encounters something like this, call the police yourself! No one who isn't a law enforcement officer has the right to unlawfully detain you!


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## Mackenzie (Sep 26, 2004)

I hope you don't get flamed for it... but that sounds like an altogether horrible experience... I hope everyone is feeling better now


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

I'm pretty sure social worker or not, she had no right to grab at any part of you or your children. I personally would have said "if you don't release my stroller holding my child, I will call the police to report you for attempted assault & battery". Nothing you did was illegal...people are allowed to yell at their children. And tossing a coat? Ok, unless you wailed it at him and the zipper hit his eye, I can't see that as abusive. A bit out of control, possibly, but abusive, no. And unless they showed you their badges, they could have been any wackadoodles...why on earth would you have any reason to believe 2 random strangers claiming to be social workers actually were.


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

If someone was trying to physically restrain me from moving (by grabbing the stroller containing my children), _I'd_ probably be the one threatening to call the police.

Seriously! I mean, it's not like you were hitting your kid! Were they really going to say "Hey, officer, we have a woman who threw a coat over here. Take her to the slammer."

I mean, it's unfortunate that you lost your temper, but that happens to everyone from time to time... I would understand if the parent had like, hauled off and slapped a kid across the face. But getting upset about a coat is hardly grounds for police intervention *rolls eyes*... I would have been tempted to tell them that if they don't get their hands off me and my kids I would be calling the police to report them.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

I seriously doubt they were real social workers. Real ones would have (should have) at the very least, given you a name and a business card, and actually should have called the police if they thought there was need. Real social workers wouldn't have handled it like that.

I'm sorry they did that to you.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

I can see how it might have looked from their side of the fence. Someone who is a mandated reporter felt that this was a moment to intervene in what she perceived as a situation of potential danger to a child. We've all seen less-than-stellar parenting moments when out and about (witness all the "Should I have said something?" threads.) So she wanted to talk to you. So far, so good.

However. The manner in which she spoke, the way she grabbed your stroller and the threats to call the police, and the fact that she followed you, were way out of line. The woman had no business doing that.


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kelly1101* 

Seriously! I mean, it's not like you were hitting your kid! Were they really going to say "Hey, officer, we have a woman who threw a coat over here. Take her to the slammer."


Haha! Right? I'd love to see that. It would never happen.

I've been there a few times with the whole being overwhelmed, in public, judged by random strangers and I know how awful it feels. Don't beat yourself up over it. I swear it's always the 2-year-olds that make me feel overwhelmed.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Can we make a law that social workers must have children of their own? Mothers get angry at their toddlers. Tossing a coat at your kid is hardly abuse. Seriously, this is why I never show anger towards my toddler in public. I'm afraid of some busy body calling the police. It happened to my mom once when my four year old brother ran across the street and almost got hit by a car. She freaked and picked him up and yelled at him and someone called the cops on her for abuse! The cop let her go immediately but still. I would be very angry if I were you. I'd like to see those social workers wrangle two young children on the subway! OP I'm so sorry this happened to you!


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

The thing is, im always on the side of someone interfering to help a child. When there really is abuse going on, what is the best course of action? All i know is, being spoken to by a random stranger, when youre feeling angry and in a hurry (like i was) is the last thing you need.
I thought about it later, and i wouldnt have minded (in the name of principle) if she walked along beside me while i went to the elevator, saying something like, 'when you feel this angry, take a deep breath, its hard dealing with 2yo's, but throwing his coat at him, and raising your voice doesnt help....etc etc etc', i dont know. I wouldnt have minded, only because i agree that she was trying to help in principle, even if her advice would have been annoying, because ive heard it before.

Sigh...thanks for your words of support.

I wanted to call the police on her too, but basically, i just wanted to get out quickly, and not waste more time.


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## Stephenie (Oct 11, 2007)

I would not believe anyone claiming to be any authority figure without ID shown. And even if they were social workers, they would have no legal right to do what they did. I am sorry you went through that.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy* 
I seriously doubt they were real social workers. Real ones would have (should have) at the very least, given you a name and a business card, and actually should have called the police if they thought there was need. Real social workers wouldn't have handled it like that.

I'm sorry they did that to you.

I also don't think for a minute they were social workers. They were strangers who lied and tried to force themselves on you and make you feel like crap.

Just to make you feel better, I've had strangers try to interfere with my parenting before. One guy said he was on some "safety committee" I'd never heard of and tried to tell me that my child shouldn't be doing what he was doing (standing in a grocery cart which was not moving...he was there so I could hold him while I was talking with a friend.) Then, I was walking around with my 3mo daughter in a bucket. She usually wasn't in one outside the car, but I didn't want to wake her for a quick trip. The woman kept telling me that my daughter shouldn't be int here and that it was bad for her







She was following me around and I was very uncomfortable...unlike my sleeping daughter.

I've never had anyone restrain me. That's ridiculous that they were trying to gain power over yo with a made-up "authority." Even a real social worker would not have the authority to restrain you.


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## WifeMomChiro (Jul 28, 2010)

I am also a mandated reporter and what you did does not seem worthy of threatening to report. That woman's reaction was way over the top. My reaction when I see a mom exasperated is to offer any help that I can. In your case, I may have held the elevator door and smiled at you. To be honest, I may have stayed close to you for a moment to make sure nothing escalated, but sometimes the kindness of a stranger can turn your whole day around.


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## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

I'd say it isn't the fact that they intervened, it was how they did it. They could have made the initial approach with some sympathy and humour instead of being so confrontational. I would think truly professional social workers would know that it's easy for a situation to escalate, particularly when they are being stickybeaks with strangers. They recognized that you were under stress. Confronting and accusing wasn't likely to defuse the situation at all. A sympathetic comment and a little understanding would have been enough to remind a stressed mom to step back from the situation a little and maintain her cool.

If she is a social worker, then it doesn't sound like she's a particularly good or effective professional.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Wow, I'm sorry that happened to you. I think all of us have been there with being frustrated with a toddler and being a little harsher than we otherwise should - but it in no way is the same as endangering or abusing your child. I think what a _real_ social worker in that situation might do is talk to you calmly "Wow, I can see you're frustrated. that age can be hard. Do you need some help getting your kids and stroller off the subway?" etc and struck up a conversation like that. Or, as a PP said, stay close and watch and listen to see if things seemed to be escalating. As others have said, I doubt they were really social workers. If something like that happens again, you should be the one to call the police.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I can see them intervening if it seems like you're not able to keep your cool, but I think that they went about it the wrong way.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

I don't think they were social workers. If they are i am AFRAID for this world! Throwing a coat is abuse now? I would have called the police myself just to see how they handled my being accosted by strangers for throwing a coat. I am not saying one CANNOT do harm - if you whipped at a face with a zipper or something...but tossing a coat at a kid and telling them to hold onto it...nope, sorry, i think they were stickybeaks, frightening ones at that!


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

You should have asked for id and then said you were calling the police. Physically touching you or your children is assault. I would think physically detaining you would be too.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

I find the most helpful strangers are the ones who make silly faces at dd when she's acting up or getting bored. I've had people do that when I'm in line at the grocery store. The best is when total strangers dance around like a monkey . that way they are showing you that they like children and that they are trying to help lighten up a stressful situation.


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ssh* 
You should have asked for id and then said you were calling the police. Physically touching you or your children is assault. I would think physically detaining you would be too.

I _believe_ that physically detaining and preventing someone from leaving, at all, could be considered abduction, but I'm not positive on that point.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Okay, whether they were real social workers or not aside, I am absolutely stunned at people's reactions to this thread! How many times on here has someone come on and said something like, "I was on the subway today and there was this adorable little 2 year old in a stroller and he kept throwing his jacket out (which is TOTALLY age appropriate!) and his mother picked it up, threw it right at him and yelled at him!!!!! I think she poked him as well!







I could not believe it! And what is even worse is that no one around her even tried to intervene. If she acts like this in public I can't even begin to imagine what she is doing to that poor child at home." Many, many, many times! Everyone would be responding, "Oh that poor child," or "that must have been terrible to witness mama!" But because it's "one of our own" then all of a sudden it's no big deal? What a horrible double standard! I am not even saying it is a big deal. Have I lost it on my kids? You betcha! Everyone has bad days and everyone does and says things that they regret. That is not my point. My point is that I am just appalled at the double standard. And I am a mandatory reporter (and a student studying to be a social worker) and if I saw someone looking very angry, yelling and throwing a jacket at a BABY, yes I would be obligated to report. It is illegal (at least in Ontario) to strike a child with an object and throwing a jacket at one qualifies.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

If someone was here complainingg about seeing what the mom described herself doing, I'd probably tell that person to mind their own business, too. And I really doubt tossing a jacket at a child would be considered striking them with an object, but I don't live in Canada, so who knows?


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## Mackenzie (Sep 26, 2004)

There would also be many advocating that things may not be as awful as they appear and encouraging people to give her the benefit of the doubt. Hopefully this thread reinforces that line of thought.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
And I am a mandatory reporter (and a student studying to be a social worker) and if I saw someone looking very angry, yelling and throwing a jacket at a BABY, yes I would be obligated to report. It is illegal (at least in Ontario) to strike a child with an object and throwing a jacket at one qualifies.

Seriously?
I would hope that the law would mean that you can't strike a child with a belt, switch, or paddle. Not that you can't strike your child with any object. If a jacket qualifies, so does a baseball you toss for practice, a magazine you throw across the room to your kid, and a french fry in a food fight. You might want to check your interpretation of the law. Meanwhile, I'll avoid Ontario.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Yes, be very sure Heavenly that the same people are posting in this supportive thread as would be coming out with flames of judgement on the others! I would not come on and agree that throwing a coat was tantamount to assault and the poor baby and yadda yadda. But sometimes i read those horrible judgy threads and i don't post at all, because there seems to be no point swimming against that tide, when no-one who really cares is reading anyway. And FWIW i've seen plenty of "Oh my the POOR CHILDREN" threads end up being more "get over it, no-one was harmed it was just someone else's bad day up close" too.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Um, I'm pretty sure I know exactly where you were from your description of where you were going, etc. I pass through there almost daily. I think, truly, that they were busybodies with no authority of any kind. Plus if you were on the subway platform, they aren't going to be able to call the police. Cell phones don't work on that platform, I know from experience. Tell them to notify the police if they're concerned, but that they have no legal authority over you. Then let go of the stroller so she's holding your stroller with your children and scream for help at her attempted kidnapping of your children.

I've never had anything of the kind happen to me there, but I'll be on the lookout for it! You'd think she'd have enough genuine dangers to children to investigate given that those elevators are some of the most urine-soaked in the whole city and directly above is 3-4 streets full of adult stores with ludicrously explicit windows. Oh, and there was an actual attempted insane-stranger abduction by a man on the street walking by a little boy and his nanny last week. Probably makes screaming that she's kidnapping them more effective, since it's on people's minds. The nanny yelled and hit the man and he dropped the boy and bolted.

A mother yelling at her kids is the very very very very lowest possible ever rung of concern for an actual social worker in that neighborhood. It's NYC, we keep to ourselves as a rule. I can't speak to Canada, but I'll keep that in mind when considering where to move!


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## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
Okay, whether they were real social workers or not aside, I am absolutely stunned at people's reactions to this thread!

.....

But because it's "one of our own" then all of a sudden it's no big deal? What a horrible double standard!

Well, if you re-read my post, I did NOT say that the women should have ignored what happened. I said that their approach was bad. And it was. These women intervened in a way that was guaranteed to escalate the situation and make everyone feel crappy about it.

I don't condone what the OP did, but from the outset she's acknowledged her mistakes. There seems little point in beating her up about it. If those women had handled the situation with more tact and discretion, then the OP would be posting today about how some nice ladies helped her out on the subway yesterday when she was having a tough time. I've seen a few of those posts here as well, and they are always lovely to read. As for the other "judgement" threads, I try to err on the side of giving others the benefit of the doubt in those threads. I don't think that's a double standard. There's no need to give the OP the benefit of the doubt, since she's already acknowledged how she could have handled things better.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 
Seriously?
I would hope that the law would mean that you can't strike a child with a belt, switch, or paddle. Not that you can't strike your child with any object. If a jacket qualifies, so does a baseball you toss for practice, a magazine you throw across the room to your kid, and a french fry in a food fight. You might want to check your interpretation of the law. Meanwhile, I'll avoid Ontario.

Seriously? Obviously intention is the main thing. Accidentally hitting a child with a baseball is very different from hitting them with a jacket. And I doubt you seriously needed me to explain that.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Oh, and I wouldn't worry about the station for future events. Yesterday was the 200,000 person Village Halloween Parade. Lots of crazy out there yesterday!


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
Okay, whether they were real social workers or not aside, I am absolutely stunned at people's reactions to this thread! How many times on here has someone come on and said something like, "I was on the subway today and there was this adorable little 2 year old in a stroller and he kept throwing his jacket out (which is TOTALLY age appropriate!) and his mother picked it up, threw it right at him and yelled at him!!!!! I think she poked him as well!







I could not believe it! And what is even worse is that no one around her even tried to intervene. If she acts like this in public I can't even begin to imagine what she is doing to that poor child at home." Many, many, many times! Everyone would be responding, "Oh that poor child," or "that must have been terrible to witness mama!" But because it's "one of our own" then all of a sudden it's no big deal? What a horrible double standard! I am not even saying it is a big deal. Have I lost it on my kids? You betcha! Everyone has bad days and everyone does and says things that they regret. That is not my point. My point is that I am just appalled at the double standard. And I am a mandatory reporter (and a student studying to be a social worker) and if I saw someone looking very angry, yelling and throwing a jacket at a BABY, yes I would be obligated to report. It is illegal (at least in Ontario) to strike a child with an object and throwing a jacket at one qualifies.

Double standard? I have yet to read someone saying that they actively worked to detain another mother because they thought that mother was acting inappropriately towards their child. I have yet to read people congratulating an MDC member for grabbing another mother's stroller. You better believe that if any one grabbed my child (and yes, the stroller my child is in is an extension of my child at that point) in an attempt to stop me will be in a world of hurt. No one, *no one*, has the right to walk up to a stranger and grab their child.

It is _illegal_ to prevent someone from leaving an area unless you are a police officer of some sort and have a valid reason to detain someone.

And no, throwing something at a child doesn't universally qualify as striking a child with an object. Otherwise it would be illegal to play catch with your kid.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

I have said stuff to other mothers twice. Once I followed a mother into the bathroom after she called him vile names, grabbed his arm and pulled him into the bathroom. I did not detain her, I stood in the bathroom so that she wouldn't be alone in there and then I asked her to calm down and asked if she needed anything. She calmed down, said she was fine and left. I would never dream of physically detaining her. Another time, I did call the police when I saw two little children sweating in a hot/unattended car. Either it's police worthy (and you call the police) or it's just bothersome and you offer to help, but you don't make up a fake title and physically restrain a stranger.

I don't think it's a double standard at all for the OP to be supported here. You don't threaten to call the police. Either you do it or you don't. And you don't make up a fake title to give yourself perceived authority


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
Seriously? Obviously intention is the main thing. Accidentally hitting a child with a baseball is very different from hitting them with a jacket. And I doubt you seriously needed me to explain that.

Her intention seemed to be to get the jacket off the floor and back with her child. She didn't post about rolling her jacket up with the zipper on the outside, and smacking her child repeatedly in the face or on the butt with the jacket. She was angry about having to pick up the jacket again, and frustrated that her child kept dropping it. Most parents would feel the same way. So, she tossed the jacket while angry. It's still not abuse. I didn't read anything that would lead me to believe that she was trying to physically harm her child with the jacket. So, intention being the main thing, I think you need to revisit your position.

If you're a mandatory reporter, you should find out exactly what is and is not considered abuse in your area so you don't end up wasting time and resources.


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

*roll eyes*

If someone posted on here "OMG I saw this woman in the subway yell at her toddler and throw his coat at him!!! She must be so horrible and not as good a mother as I! Should I have called CPS on her?" I (and many others) would say (and have said), "Um, did she hit the child? No? Probably she was having a bad day. It happens. We've all had less-than-stellar moments."


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kelly1101* 
*roll eyes*

If someone posted on here "OMG I saw this woman in the subway yell at her toddler and throw his coat at him!!! She must be so horrible and not as good a mother as I! Should I have called CPS on her?" I (and many others) would say (and have said), "Um, did she hit the child? No? Probably she was having a bad day. It happens. We've all had less-than-stellar moments."











And if said person had said, "Well I [may have] impersonated a social worker and physically restrained her stroller to prevent her from leaving" they certainly wouldn't have gotten pats on the back here.


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## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

I would just like to share the Federal US definition of child abuse, so it's clear what guidelines we are talking about:

Quote:

Physical abuse is nonaccidental physical injury (ranging from minor bruises to severe fractures or death) as a result of punching, beating, kicking, biting, shaking, throwing, stabbing, choking, hitting (with a hand, stick, strap, or other object), burning, or otherwise harming a child, that is inflicted by a parent, caregiver, or other person who has responsibility for the child.2 Such injury is considered abuse regardless of whether the caregiver intended to hurt the child. Physical discipline, such as spanking or paddling, is not considered abuse as long as it is reasonable and causes no bodily injury to the child.
Also here is some information on mandated reporters, who they are, what their responsibilities are and what guidelines they follow. Mandated reporters must make a report when they have knowledge of or have a reasonable reason to suspect child abuse. I have no idea how the situation looked to a bystander, but it is possible that they had some reason to feel there was a suspicion of child abuse. Mandated reporters aren't allowed to detain random people on the street, however. That is totally out of line.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *la mamita* 
I would just like to share the Federal US definition of child abuse, so it's clear what guidelines we are talking about:

Also here is some information on mandated reporters, who they are, what their responsibilities are and what guidelines they follow. Mandated reporters must make a report when they have knowledge of or have a reasonable reason to suspect child abuse. I have no idea how the situation looked to a bystander, but it is possible that they had some reason to feel there was a suspicion of child abuse. Mandated reporters aren't allowed to detain random people on the street, however. That is totally out of line.

And since they have no idea who the OP is, and no way to contact the police fast enough for the police to question her any way on the spot--no cell service there--there's literally nothing an actual social worker could legally do. And a real social worker would surely know that.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
And I am a mandatory reporter (and a student studying to be a social worker) and if I saw someone looking very angry, yelling and throwing a jacket at a BABY, yes I would be obligated to report. It is illegal (at least in Ontario) to strike a child with an object and throwing a jacket at one qualifies.

Report to who and report what? This is a stranger, who isn't going to stay in the vicinity long enough for you to contact anyone who has legally authority to question/detain her; plus if the police don't see her doing anything, they probably can't detain/question her either. You have no name, no address, no identifying information that you can report. And you have no authority to detain, at least not in the United States.

Are there literally zillions of files of "Unknown brunnette apparently-caucasian woman slapped hand of approximately 3 year old child in x location at x time"? That would explain what CPS is wasting time on rather than addressing the truly horrible abuse cases in NYC that even though they're open, active cases, the children are not monitored at all and die or nearly die--see Nixmary Brown.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Throwing a jacket back into the stroller with the child is NOTHING like hitting a child with an object.

I sincerely doubt these women were social workers. You should have called the police yourself because grabbing your stroller sounds a bit like attempted abduction.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom* 
Either it's police worthy (and you call the police) or it's just bothersome and you offer to help, but you don't make up a fake title and physically restrain a stranger.

I don't think it's a double standard at all for the OP to be supported here. You don't threaten to call the police. Either you do it or you don't. And you don't make up a fake title to give yourself perceived authority



















If someone tried to grab my child or the stroller/carrier they were in I would be *screaming* at them to get their hands off. Unless you are in the situation where you WANT the police to come, you do NOT try to grab other people or their children


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

Heavenly, social work is my career choice as well. I see you're a mother of three; I am as well. I've been a teen mom, I've been on welfare, I've been poor, I've been stressed and hungry, I've had to seriously think of where I'm going to live and what I'm going to do for money, all while having children. I've dealt with overzeolous case workers who I felt were just going through the motions and didn't care, store clerks who were rude to me because I looked so young and used WIC checks. I've had good days and bad days, made lots of mistakes, and did lots of things right. I've personally witnessed both excellent parenting and child abuse. I thank my life experience for giving me some wisdom to know the difference between behaving humanly and behaving abusively-and let me tell you, telling that difference can be an art, especially when the behavior lies somewhere in the grey area-and there is no guarantee that you'll be right. In reality, we can pick apart the OP's story and imagine what we might or might not have done in either side of the equation, the the truth is, none of us will ever have any clue because we weren't there.

For one mother, tossing a jacket on a toddler after he/she keeps throwing it on the ground might just be a sign of exasperation and being pushed to the limit. For another, it might stem from an inability to understand and empathize with normal toddler behavior. My point is, you can't think, well, if *I* saw that, I'd report it! Opening a CPS investigation is a big deal. Most social workers, from what I've seen, really and truly care about children. However, they don't always think about how the children feel about possibly being separated from their parents based on very shaky allegations that may or may not be supported with evidence, how important intact families are, and how traumatic any separation from their parents will be. Children can be removed needlessly for things that are in the grey area when no other risk factors are present, and it can scar families forever. It can cause anxiety, PTSD, depression, paranoia, and fear on both the part of the child and the parent. It's something that workers should really pause and think about before making a move to pull a child, and I'm not so convinced that a lot of them do. I don't think it's because they have an agenda against families-I think it's because they fail to see the big picture and focus on tiny details that may not be an issue at all. We've come to a point in our society where we judge people harshly for doing things that are human. It's human to be frustrated. It's human to get angry, and yes, it's part of parenting that we sometimes lose our patience with our children, and yes, it's sometimes in public. Because of widely publicized cases of child abuse, we are all too aware that little signs can be indicative of a much bigger problem. And that's a good thing. However, we can't ignore the human element. We have to place ourselves in that mother's position. We don't know how her day has gone, or how many stressers she's dealt with. If I saw a mother do something like the OP did, and felt like I had to say something, I'd probably simply offer a sympathetic word and see how she reacted. Truly abusive mothers tend to blame the child for being "bad", or express negative emotions even when met with kindness. Being antagonistic is certainly not a good way to approach anyone in any state of mind, especially when there is no visible immediate danger to the child.


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

I'm a mandated reporter. I hope that schools of social work are training in perspective taking (as in what's seen on the outside may not be what's going on on the inside), thinking critically about language used (as in OP said "threw" the coat, when I suspect she meant tossed - who hasn't tossed something into the stroller when it's the 15th time in two days you've had to pick up what Mr. Cause and Effect is testing with lately), and leveled response. Never mind critical thinking about what the legislation and the policies that flow from it intend.

Having done field work with families, nuance, intention and perspective are integral. It's also important to first assume that parents are doing the best they can and mean well.

Angelpie, great post.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
Okay, whether they were real social workers or not aside, I am absolutely stunned at people's reactions to this thread! How many times on here has someone come on and said something like, "I was on the subway today and there was this adorable little 2 year old in a stroller and he kept throwing his jacket out (which is TOTALLY age appropriate!) and his mother picked it up, threw it right at him and yelled at him!!!!! I think she poked him as well!







I could not believe it! And what is even worse is that no one around her even tried to intervene. If she acts like this in public I can't even begin to imagine what she is doing to that poor child at home." Many, many, many times! Everyone would be responding, "Oh that poor child," or "that must have been terrible to witness mama!" But because it's "one of our own" then all of a sudden it's no big deal? What a horrible double standard! I am not even saying it is a big deal. Have I lost it on my kids? You betcha! Everyone has bad days and everyone does and says things that they regret. That is not my point. My point is that I am just appalled at the double standard. And I am a mandatory reporter (and a student studying to be a social worker) and if I saw someone looking very angry, yelling and throwing a jacket at a BABY, yes I would be obligated to report. It is illegal (at least in Ontario) to strike a child with an object and throwing a jacket at one qualifies.

A lot of what appear to be double standards on MDC are because there are a lot of people posting here. I wouldn't be freaked out by seeing what happened in the OP, and I wouldn't be thinking "what's she like in private??" (I _hate_ that attitude) - I'd be thinking, "yeah - btdt - toddlers are frustrating". I suspect most of the people posting in this thread are much like me.

And, I find it much scarier that someone throwing a coat at a toddler in frustration is report-worthy than I do thatsomeone threw a coat at a toddler.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

A lot of Social Workers have nothing whatsoever to do with children.

My friend's sister is a SW and I wouldn't let her watch my dog but she deals with financial aid and not children.

If someone said they were a SW I wouldn't assume they know what they are doing because they might not ever see kids or have been trained in that area.

I would have called the police if someone restrained me.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

If they were social workers and really thought it was a dangerous situation they would have had security detain you while they called. It sounds like you all had a horrible day and they made it much worse. I would have whipped out my cell phone and called the police at that point and reported them for kidnapping, which is essentially what they were doing when they prevented you from leaving.


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## Mulvah (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom* 
I have said stuff to other mothers twice. Once I followed a mother into the bathroom after she called him vile names, grabbed his arm and pulled him into the bathroom. I did not detain her, I stood in the bathroom so that she wouldn't be alone in there and then I asked her to calm down and asked if she needed anything. She calmed down, said she was fine and left. I would never dream of physically detaining her. Another time, I did call the police when I saw two little children sweating in a hot/unattended car. Either it's police worthy (and you call the police) or it's just bothersome and you offer to help, but you don't make up a fake title and physically restrain a stranger.

I don't think it's a double standard at all for the OP to be supported here. You don't threaten to call the police. Either you do it or you don't. And you don't make up a fake title to give yourself perceived authority


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

OP, what a horrible experience. I was once stopped in the parking lot of a department store as I was holding DD by the hand and taking her to the car as she was melting down and unable to recentre. I wasn't punishing her, or dragging her or anything, she was just out of control and we needed the calm of the car to restore her equilibrium - but she was loud as we went there. A woman stopped me and asked what was happening, what was I doing to this child? I told her she was my DD, having a meltdown in the store and we were going to the car to regroup. The woman told me she felt really uncomfortable with it and was worried for DD. I stopped and talked with her because I respected her bravery and willingness to intercede on behalf of a child. I asked DD to acknowledge that I was her mom and she was ok, which she managed through her crying. At some point this woman felt reassured and we parted. I went to the car and cried with mortification, right along with DD!

Who knows what motivated these women. I don't think they were professionals as they should have ID and protocols around identifying themselves formally. Maybe they really believed they were doing the right thing, however awkwardly. I prefer that version over them just being jerks, but who knows.


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JessicaS* 
A lot of Social Workers have nothing whatsoever to do with children.

My friend's sister is a SW and I wouldn't let her watch my dog but she deals with financial aid and not children.

If someone said they were a SW I wouldn't assume they know what they are doing because they might not ever see kids or have been trained in that area.

I would have called the police if someone restrained me.

This bears repeating. The title "social worker" doesn't not equal "child welfare worker". In fact, it used to be (I'm not sure if it's still the case) that not all child weflare workers are even social workers. There is a lady in my CSO who has the job title "social worker" (at least on paper), but she only has a BA in sociology. To be professionally considered a social worker across the board, you have to be licensed as a social worker (at least in my state), and you either have a BA or MBA in social work. You are correct that many social workers do not work with children, or have any idea of what goes on in the child welfare system. My good friends' ex-step grandmother is a social worker who works with developmentally disabled adults. I'm going into child welfare, so I tried to pick her brain a bit about the job. She had no clue about the child welfare system but she was able to give me a general idea about what social work itself is like.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

I agree that they don't sound like real social workers. When they threatened to call the police I would have said please do. If they didn't I might have asked another passenger to inform the conductor/driver that I need help. If this was NYC, there is usually an MTA cop on board the train some where. If there didn't happen to be one on the train, then they can arrange for one to be waiting at the next station.


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## Petie1104 (Oct 26, 2010)

Ok, everyone has told you good things, well most everyone. But, I would suggest that you call up the social work service, whatever it is called there and tell them about the incident. If it is their employees, then they need to be dealt with. If not, at least they can let you know that this was not an official act. I am just in school right now, but we have learned a few things, and one of those is that a police officer cannot even detain you without cause. From what little I know about social workers from reading up on from hslda, a social worker has to have a police accompany them to follow through on a warrant, and a social worker has no standing to detain you. They have to call the police to do that. If they didn't show you ID first thing, then either they are truly in the wrong, or they were lying their butts off.


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## gbailey (Mar 10, 2009)

OP, your restraint with those two alleged social workers was great because if someone refused to let my stroller go, I would have given them a legitimate reason to call the police on me. Were you on the subway in NY? I ask because as a New Yorker, I believe the proper protocol would have been to tell the train conducter to get a police officer if they believed your children were in danger. I also don't believe social workers in NYC are allowed to physically restrain a parent, their child or property.

Yes, you lost your cool. Could you have handled the situation differently? Of course but you've acnowledged that already.

I recently had a stranger interfere with my parenting but confrontation is my weakness so I said something. DD went ballistic because I removed something from her hand she picked up in the 99 cent store. She refused to put it back so I put it back where it belonged. She was already tired and started crying very loudly. A woman bent down and looked in her stroller. I asked her if she wanted something and she told me she was checking on the little one because she was crying "like you beat her or something."







I told her I don't beat my daughter but if I did what on earth was she going to do about it, to mind her own business and continue shopping.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
It is illegal (at least in Ontario) to strike a child with an object and throwing a jacket at one qualifies.











I guess our pillowfights over here are a serious form of abuse, then.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
If someone was here complainingg about seeing what the mom described herself doing, I'd probably tell that person to mind their own business, too. And I really doubt tossing a jacket at a child would be considered striking them with an object, but I don't live in Canada, so who knows?

But it's all about perception. If the ladies thought that what they saw was a child being hit with a jacket and then pushed, that's what they were reacting to.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama* 
I can see how it might have looked from their side of the fence. Someone who is a mandated reporter felt that this was a moment to intervene in what she perceived as a situation of potential danger to a child. We've all seen less-than-stellar parenting moments when out and about (witness all the "Should I have said something?" threads.) So she wanted to talk to you. So far, so good.

Mandated reporters aren't _supposed_ to intervene. They are _supposed_ to have a lower burden of proof required to report.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

I am a social worker, and as a PP said, not all social workers work with children. I work with people living with HIV/AIDS (some of which ARE children, but beside the point).

A social worker would not behave that way. If a social worker behaves that way, you can report them to your state social work board. We have pretty extensive ethical requirements placed upon us and I would say that was unethical practice.

Would say more, but gotta go...


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

FWIW, I don't think the authorities in Ontario would be terribly interested in this incident either.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

If someone touched my kid's stroller there would definitely be police involvement! OP only the police can detain you and even they have to have probable cause.

I'm with the "they were'nt social workers" crowd. And I hope your day is better.


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## babydanielsmom (Jan 18, 2008)

*IF* they were social workers they sound like they were on a serious power trip


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Wow...I can see that a few people would have reported ME by now. I'm that mom forcing her screaming toddler into the carseat when he doesn't want to go home (and yes, sometimes it is FORCING HIM IN)

FWIW, when I read the "I saw a mom doing XYZ" threads I'm usually one that goes, "Ugh, been there. Having a toddler is tough. Poor mom." and doesnt' post.


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## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

I have to report, and I've worked in child protective services. I CANNOT detain someone like that on a subway. I would not, it would break numerous rules, get me fired and possibly put myself and the child at risk. If I saw a parent melting down, I'd talk to them in an effort to get them to calm down. In a situation like yours and if I thought it warranted an investigation, my course is to call the police, then a file can be opened, by someone not myself since I am a witness and someone who is doing the calling in. In my city, there are things to alert the conductor of the subway if there is trouble, no one can get off the train, I'm sure they're on other trains too.


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## Snapdragon (Aug 30, 2007)

Wow, that must have been really scary. In my opinion those women who approached you were way out of line- they had no right to do that and especially to put their hands on your child's stroller. I would have been so shaken by that. It sounds to me like they were far more aggressive and harmful than you were. From how you describe it you were just stressed and a little snappy- and that is a far stretch from abusive, in my opinion. I am sorry that happened to you.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
And I am a mandatory reporter (and a student studying to be a social worker) and if I saw someone looking very angry, yelling and throwing a jacket at a BABY, yes I would be obligated to report. It is illegal (at least in Ontario) to strike a child with an object and throwing a jacket at one qualifies

Wait wait wait. My 6 year old was being a snot and wouldn't put on his socks for school and was almost late for school. So I took the socks (not balled up or folded) and tossed them over to him and they landed in his lap. In Ontario, *that* would get my child taken away from me?! I find that very hard to believe. And if so, well, I think Ontario needs to be looking at the huge amount of *real* child abuse out there.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

I literally JUST went through that subway station 20 minutes ago. West 4th Street, right?

The OP said she was not *on* the train, and that station is pretty big. If she was waiting for the elevator, by the time a train came, they got to the conductors car through the throngs, asked him to alert someone, (probably got him to stop laughing and convinced him they were serious; bc it was Halloween, in the Village, with literally 100 times the usual crowd volume on the trains coming to the parade), and someone arrived, the OP would have been long gone, blissfully unaware, and at the meeting already.

And again, no matter what you set your cell phone on, you have no signal there, if it's the lower platform, which I presume by the "waiting for the elevator" part. There is no service from any carrier.


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## ErinYay (Aug 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllyRae* 
Wait wait wait. My 6 year old was being a snot and wouldn't put on his socks for school and was almost late for school. So I took the socks (not balled up or folded) and tossed them over to him and they landed in his lap. In Ontario, *that* would get my child taken away from me?! I find that very hard to believe. And if so, well, I think Ontario needs to be looking at the huge amount of *real* child abuse out there.

Heck, we regularly smack the baby about the head with a soft pillow, because she LOVES it. Apparently I should add that to the ever growing list of things I do that will get her removed from our home.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *la mamita* 
I would just like to share the Federal US definition of child abuse, so it's clear what guidelines we are talking about:

Quote:

Physical abuse is nonaccidental physical injury (ranging from minor bruises to severe fractures or death) as a result of punching, beating, kicking, biting, shaking, throwing, stabbing, choking, hitting (with a hand, stick, strap, or other object), burning, or otherwise harming a child, that is inflicted by a parent, caregiver, or other person who has responsibility for the child.2 Such injury is considered abuse regardless of whether the caregiver intended to hurt the child. Physical discipline, such as spanking or paddling, is not considered abuse as long as it is reasonable and causes no bodily injury to the child.

Also here is some information on mandated reporters, who they are, what their responsibilities are and what guidelines they follow. Mandated reporters must make a report when they have knowledge of or have a reasonable reason to suspect child abuse. I have no idea how the situation looked to a bystander, but it is possible that they had some reason to feel there was a suspicion of child abuse. Mandated reporters aren't allowed to detain random people on the street, however. That is totally out of line.

I am not commenting on the situation in this thread... just want to point out that in all of the US states (don't know about Canada but it sounds like there too), mandated reporters are responsible for reporting abuse AND neglect, which includes things like emotional neglect which could - I am NOT saying it did in this case, but it COULD look like a stressed parent on a bad day.

I'm not saying that to comment on this case, so don't yell at me for pointing it out. I just want to be clear that mandated reporters are not only responsible for reporting obvious abuse as described in the above post. The vast majority of actual child welfare cases are because of neglect, not abuse.


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## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllyRae* 
Wait wait wait. My 6 year old was being a snot and wouldn't put on his socks for school and was almost late for school. So I took the socks (not balled up or folded) and tossed them over to him and they landed in his lap. In Ontario, *that* would get my child taken away from me?! I find that very hard to believe. And if so, well, I think Ontario needs to be looking at the huge amount of *real* child abuse out there.

Yeah, ummm, no, you wouldn't get your child taken away from you. If someone reported you for child abuse, and said that you winged something at your kid's head, swearing and cussing them out, I'd have to open a file, which is a matter of making sure no one falls through the cracks, but if it turned out to be that you tossed some socks on your son's lap, even if you were annoyed, I'd be pissed that someone wasted my precious time and resources. I've yet to hear of any case where a child has been taken away from a parent because they tossed an item of clothing their way. In fact it's not exactly that easy to remove a child from the parent here.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom* 
I literally JUST went through that subway station 20 minutes ago. West 4th Street, right?

Where did you see a specific station mentioned? I wasn't even sure we were talking about NYC.

I do get signals on most trains, but I have a friend with different cell phone company and he gets no signal in most tunnels. I don't specifically remember if I get a signal around 4th street.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Hi. I have removed some posts from this thread that were discussing a different thread in a negative way. I also removed any posts that quoted them.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

Those do not sound like real social workers. I think they were frauding you. A real social worker would not likely do something like that. They are not even supposed to anyway. I would have called the police on them. Seriously. I think you should consider going back and filing a police report now. Who knows, would they go tell someone that they are social workers and kidnap the child? It has happened before. Children have been kidnapped before by people posing as social workers.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

Honestly, I am quite disturbed by your post. I suspect those women were trying to kidnap your child. PLEASE contact law enforcement to at least run by them what happened. You did nothing that would even allow them to make a report. But what they did was not within protocol of what real social workers are allowed to do. Plus, there are many kids of social workers and the type that investigate chid abuse do not really identify themselves are social workers. They might call themselves case workers or child abuse investigators. But regardless, they are not even allowed to legally investigate child abuse unless an official report is made. Two of them hanging out in the subway is really really not how real CPS workers work.

Please be very careful in the future. I hope everyone takes this as a warning. It was in the news a little while ago about a baby being kidnapped by 2 people posing as social workers. That is not the only time it has happened.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

I used to be a mandatory reporter. A mandatory reporter is obligated to report suspected child abuse. They are NOT allowed to intervene. They are specifically taught to not question the child. I took the mandatory reporter classes. They are not allowed to intervene. Mandatory reporters are not allowed to just walk up to a stranger in public and try to touch or handle the child. They are allowed to go online or make a phone call to report.

A real child abuse case worker will have ID and show you the idea from the first moment of contact.


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## Mom2M (Sep 23, 2006)

I know there are a ton of posts here but I have to add my own because I can just imagine myself in the same situation! I try not to raise my voice, I try not to get impatient and I feel really bad when I do, but it happens sometimes.
I'm thinking about this and reading through your description, putting a picture in my head at the same time and geez, you did nothing that would warrant intervention and detainment! You weren't cursing and screaming or anything terrible.
I'm so sorry this happened to you and I imagine I would have been totally flustered at the time and then think of all these great comebacks afterward.
I hope you never see them again!
Take care


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## childsplay (Sep 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllyRae* 
Wait wait wait. My 6 year old was being a snot and wouldn't put on his socks for school and was almost late for school. So I took the socks (not balled up or folded) and tossed them over to him and they landed in his lap. In Ontario, *that* would get my child taken away from me?! I find that very hard to believe. And if so, well, I think Ontario needs to be looking at the huge amount of *real* child abuse out there.

Hee hee, You're a better woman than I : ) After endless sock battles in this house I now throw all three pairs down from the second floor landing, balled up, hand grenade style and yell '"incoming!" The kids scream, duck, laugh and make explosion sounds. Every morning. I should be arrested.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

It was in the news a little while ago about a baby being kidnapped by 2 people posing as social workers. That is not the only time it has happened.
Link? I Googled it and found only this thread...


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Those "social workers" should've had the training and experience to recognize a momentary frustration. They WAAAAAAAYYYYY overreacted and I'd call their department to complain. Don't say anything like "I know I shouldn't" just concentrate on the fact that you were not hurting or trying to hurt your child in anyway and they decided to threaten your family for no reason.

Ah, note to self, demand ID, and if they can't produce it, call the cops myself and report THEM as kidnappers. (







: that it never ever ever matters.)


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WifeMomChiro* 
I am also a mandated reporter and what you did does not seem worthy of threatening to report. That woman's reaction was way over the top. My reaction when I see a mom exasperated is to offer any help that I can. In your case, I may have held the elevator door and smiled at you. To be honest, I may have stayed close to you for a moment to make sure nothing escalated, but sometimes the kindness of a stranger can turn your whole day around.









: Ride up on the elevator (smiling briefly at the family and then studiously watching the indicator lights) so the mom has some encouragement to calm down and time to do so. At most.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Wow. How scary. You bet your sweet behind police would be involved! Those women had NO right to man handle you and your children like that. Its not too late to report this incident. I would notify the transit authority and the police. And perhaps social services. These ladies were either posing as child welfare workers or they have some rouge agents on their hands who are on a power trip.

In the situation I would have responded exactly like you did. Except perhaps made more of a scene. If someone one were forcing themselves on me or my children like that I would have been screaming for help!

And don't worry mama, it may not have been your most shining moment but I don't think you did anything wrong.


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## RiverTam (May 29, 2009)

You know, it's easy to concentrate on what the strangers were doing, rather than what OP was doing.

OP shouldn't have been yelling at her child or throwing things at her child. OP should take responsibility for what is (AT BEST) very bad parenting and (AT WORST) abusive behavior.

Should OP go to jail? No. Should OP take a deep breath and take a look at her behavior in that moment? Yes.

Have I been there? Yes. The only thing to do is apologize to the child and work on doing better.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I didn't read any of the replies because I'm feeling too lazy.

But, isn't it nice to know that these social workers are/were always so calm with their own kids??? Surely they never lost their cool EVER? Cuz, they are so awesome.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverTam* 
You know, it's easy to concentrate on what the strangers were doing, rather than what OP was doing.

OP shouldn't have been yelling at her child or throwing things at her child. OP should take responsibility for what is (AT BEST) very bad parenting and (AT WORST) abusive behavior.

Should OP go to jail? No. Should OP take a deep breath and take a look at her behavior in that moment? Yes.

Have I been there? Yes. The only thing to do is apologize to the child and work on doing better.

I'm pretty sure the OP said in her first post that she didn't think she had behaved appropriately. However, if everything happened exactly as described in the first post, I wouldn't describe her parenting in that moment as "very bad."


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Honestly? I've found that when people are threatening to call the police, the best thing that can be done is exactly that. The question of who they are and what they thought they were doing would be addressed, and even if you behaved inappropriately, if they are REALLY mandated reporters....

then there job was to report. Only. Interfering isn't on their menu.


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## bella99 (Sep 25, 2008)

I am a mandated reporter, and even beyond that, I work in foster care, so am actually in child welfare and deal everyday with abusive/neglectful situations.

What the OP engaged in with her kids was not abusive (not even "at worst"). People often confuse what CPS does when they conflate bad parenting with abusive parenting. CPS isn't interested in whether you are a good or bad parent, they are interested if you are abusing or neglecting your children.

I'm not even saying what the OP did was bad parenting, you can't know that from a glimpse of someone one time in a public setting. Obviously she became frustrated and lost her temper a bit, but that doesn't really mean she was being a bad parent at the time, it means she was being human. I know I've lost my temper a few times with my two year old (and I think she's the most delightful little thing on the planet), and I also feel secure, that in spite of that, I'm a pretty good parent.

Also, I don't think anyone was trying to kidnap the OP's kids, but I do tend to doubt they were actually "social workers".


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

I don't really care what the OP was doing. If it was THAT bad, they should have called the police. If it was not, they should have backed off.

If anyone (other than a law enforcement officer, with cause) touched me or my child in such a way and detained me, they would have quickly found themselves in very dangerous waters. NO ONE puts a hand on me or my child, unlawfully. No matter what they think they saw.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
I'm pretty sure the OP said in her first post that she didn't think she had behaved appropriately. However, if everything happened exactly as described in the first post, I wouldn't describe her parenting in that moment as "very bad."









I agree. I've had some moments of very bad parenting. I don't think the OP qualifies.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I agree, I think the only reason it reads like it might've been bad is because the OP keeps on mentioning how she "knew it was bad". But I suspect the only reason the OP felt like she "shouldn't have done that, I know" is because she had two creeps telling her off.


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

FWIW, next time, OP, don't give the jacket back after the first time (or zip it on and snap a snap so they can't take it off). Picking up things over and over is seriously irritating - don't let it get there and you save yourself irritation (and odd/aggressive interventionists).









Tjej


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
Where did you see a specific station mentioned? I wasn't even sure we were talking about NYC.

I do get signals on most trains, but I have a friend with different cell phone company and he gets no signal in most tunnels. I don't specifically remember if I get a signal around 4th street.


She said she was going to an AP gathering on Halloween day around mid-day. The AP group here had a meeting on Sullivan Street, where West. 4th station was the closest subway. I live relatively nearby, so I know the station and area well, and I was here that day. So I think it's a good guess.

But I have waited for the elevator at West 4th, as OP said she was doing. She could have been waiting for the upper elevator that goes to the street, but there are police right there, especially on Halloween, so I don't think any discussion of calling the police would have made sense. Which means the lower elevator from the B-D-F-M platform. No cell service on that platform from what I've seen. It's highly unlikely anyone could call the police from there.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Wow, thankyou everyone for acknowledging how difficult parenting can be, and that we can be human. Especially on this type of forum, which advocates gentle discipline, we set ourselves up for high standards.

Its very healing, thankyou for your warm words.

Interestingly, I did call out to fellow passengers, saying, these women wont let me go! I was completely ignored.

There was no signal in the subway (it wasn't west 4th, but close-Union square). It was around 9am, so before the halloween crowds.
It never occurred to me that they werent social workers. I am naïve, and I am not fully aware of how much power they have, and I guess they knew it.

I think its worth repeating, that the woman made both my children cry. My 5yo included. Even then, she wouldn't let go. (you know, in all his 5 years, noone has made my baby cry like that)
Thats scary.
Scary also, that not a soul, stopped to help. I guess I should have reworded my plea for help. I should have literally said 'help! I am being assaulted! Thy will not let let go of my stroller! Call the police!'

Maybe passerbys thought they were the police.

Im thinking of making a report, but I couldn't identify them, and it has been a few days.

Next time ( I hope there wont be one), I will demand identification.

You just don't expect these things to happen, and frankly, I thought social workers were supposed to be on our side (meaning the side of families)

Like I said before, she could have walked along beside me, saying what she had to say. I was in a hurry. I would have more sympathy for her if she had respected that. Half the reason I lost my cool, was because I felt pressed for time.

Thanks for the advice about alerting the train conductor. I was away from the platform tho, having just exited it and on my way to the elevator to the street.
Also, I couldn't leave my stroller unattended while I alerted the ticket office about the situation.The Union Square station is very big. I was trapped (so easy to take advantage of a parent with young kids)

I dunno, im still mulling around in my brain why being a parent in public is always an invitation for strangers to comment. I am a very tolerant person, I don't mind if someone gives me advice ( even if I disagree with it). I dont mind the good intentions of compete strangers. I respect social workers for the dedication to a good cause &#8230;hell, dont I deserve the same respect?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
"Wow, I can see you're frustrated. that age can be hard. Do you need some help getting your kids and stroller off the subway?"

Yep, that would have been nice&#8230;.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scottishmommy* 
I find the most helpful strangers are the ones who make silly faces at dd when she's acting up or getting bored.

That too


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