# spare the rod, spoil the child?



## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)

GD is how I want to raise my ds, I don't want to ever spank him. I wasn't raised this way, and I know that the members of both my family and my dh's family will find it odd and/or criticize us. I was trying to tell my dad that spanking doesn't teach a child anything but that violence is oK when administered to someone smaller and weaker. He told me that where he went wrong with raising me was that he didn't spank me enough when I was little. Ugh. The discussion didn't go much further, but he did quote "Spare the rod, spoil the child." I disagree with this but I didn't really know any good rebuttles. I'm going to be posting this in Spirtuality too because I'm wondering if there might be an misunderstanding of this phrase as there is with some other biblical phrases. TIA.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

I believe you'd find a ton of resources as far as refuting him biblically at gentlechristianmothers.org


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## lillaurensmomma (Jul 5, 2003)

The biggest misunderstanding is that the quote "spare the rod, spoil the child" isn't even from the Bible...

And I do agree that Gentle Christian Mothers is a great place to get info, as is www.aolff.org If you do a search you can find a lot of information about the "rod" passages and how they have been mistranslated.

j


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

I am glad you are finding a better way for your children


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## binxsmom (Jun 14, 2004)

i read an interesting take on "spare the rod, spoil the child." it may have been dr. sears, not sure though. anyway, in biblical times a shepherd guarded and tended to his flock just as we tend to our children. the rod/staff was not used to beat the valued sheep but to guide and direct them.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I would not waste time trying to convince your parents. Not to sound harsh, really. Just -- it is a massive thing to admit that you hurt your children in this way. And by agreeing with your methods and ideas, they would be admitting their own mistakes. Sometimes its just too painful. Their kids are grown, and they can't change what they did. I wonder if the kindest thing is to stand firm in your own mind, and let the argument go. You do not need their validation to know what is best for you child. I understand it would be nice to have though.


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## julesinottawa (Apr 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *binxsmom*
i read an interesting take on "spare the rod, spoil the child." it may have been dr. sears, not sure though. anyway, in biblical times a shepherd guarded and tended to his flock just as we tend to our children. the rod/staff was not used to beat the valued sheep but to guide and direct them.

Yes! I heard this take on this quote earlier this year in a video series I was doing with a mom's group and I was SO happy to find this out. I really agree with it and it resolved a bit of conflict I was having.

I don't know if you'll ever convince your dad but maybe as he sees your way working he will eventually come around.


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## BelovedK (Jun 7, 2005)

I'm with Binxmom, I think that quote is sorely overused in the wrong way. My parents did it to me, i try to gently guide my DD & DS (not always succesfully, but i try)


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## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)

I understand that him agreeing with me about spanking would be a sore issue. My only concern is that I won't be able to leave ds with him when ds is older for fear of my dad punishing him for something. The more I think about parenting styles, it doesn't seem like I will be able to trust anyone with ds until he's like 8 or 9! :LOL

ETA: Thanx everyone for your insights and the links, they're very helpful.


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

Ah mamaduck, that's so true. My mom even asks me now about my childhood (if I was happy, etc.) and I don't want to be completely honest to her b/c it will break her heart. She did what she had the resources for, kwim, and it was vastly better than how she was parented.

I second the ideas of www.aolff.org and www.gentlemothering.com and the forums at www.gentlechristianmothers.com

To add a little to the protecting the sheep concept of the rod, which is true, it was also used to defend the sheep, as in we use our rod of authority to protect our children from things that could hurt them. Guide and protect vs. punish...I like that image.


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## CJNeeley (Jun 8, 2005)

I found this interesting (especially the very last article)...
http://www.stophitting.com/religion/faithMaterial.php

The biggest thing that gets me about people, is that all of their "proof" is distorted quotes from the OT. Nothing Jesus said or did in the NT would remotely support corporal punishment. (And if He wouldn't condone fighting against their oppressors why on earth would He condone smacking around a child you're supposed to be taking care of?)

But to answer your question about misunderstanding of a biblical quote, I would suggest read the whole chapter the quoted verse is in and see if it's taken out of context or if surrounding verses clarify it's meaning or it the tone of the whole thing says something different to you, etc. Because then you'll be deciding for yourself instead of just accepting someone else's interpretation (whether your father's or ours because your's is best for you).


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## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)

I agree CJNeely about reading the quote in question in context. The only problem is that I can't neccessarily find a specific quote, so I've been looking into all the "rod" verses. I suppose my dad and I will have a Bible study of sorts eventually. I'm not seeking validation from him so much for my own benefit as for my ds's benefit. I know that my dad would very much like to babysit my ds when he gets older, and if I ever found out that my dad had hit my ds...I'm not sure what I would do. We wouldn't talk for a long time, though, that's for sure. This is such a sensitive issue, but I feel it is something that my dad and I need to discuss.
BTW, Welcome to MDC.


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## CJNeeley (Jun 8, 2005)

The stop hitting link starts off with a list of common spare the rod verses (I think).

One of the most common ones is Proverbs 13:24.


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## pjabslenz (Mar 25, 2004)

I was talking to my dh about the spare the rod quote earlier today. I am reading Kid Cooperation by Elizabeth Pantley and her opinion on that quote is that the shepherd didn't beat his sheep with the rod but used it to guide the sheep. I've often wondered about that phrase myself.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Having worked with herd animals myself (horses) I'm very familiar with how they work - herd animals are easy to direct without ever touching them, as they are extremely sensitive to body language. I'm sure in the days of the bible authors, everybody was so familiar with sheep, goats, and other herd animals that this was just obvious to them. But in our modern world, too many people have no clue.

It's true, a shepherd need never touch his sheep - the staff is used, among other things, as an extention of his arm, much as a lunging whip is used by a horseman as an extension of his arm, never to touch the animal. People who perport to live their lives "by the Bible" should read it in the original language and make sure the translation is not only accurate, but that their interpretation of it is as well. It's simply pure ignorance to suggest a rod was used for beating.


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## maxwill129 (May 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *binxsmom*
in biblical times a shepherd guarded and tended to his flock just as we tend to our children. the rod/staff was not used to beat the valued sheep but to guide and direct them.

Yes! I'm doing an in-depth study on spanking and the Bible and am finding much of the same things!

Also, Piglet68 makes a great point. Too many people don't go back to the Greek and Hebrew when studying the Bible to find out exactly what the original said and what it meant. You also need to read the entire passage to figure out what one verse means. People take verses out of context all the time.

S.


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## Cheshire (Dec 14, 2004)

I'm so glad you guys posted all the links! I've always felt that the verse is misinterpreted -- that it means if you spare discipline (not spanking, but guidance) then you spoil the child. I'd never done any research into it and am glad for a jumping off point.

As far as approaching your dad about it -- if you feel you can trust him to follow your wishes then simply explain that you both may not meet eye-to-eye on the subject and you are not trying to change his mind on the subject or by not spanking your child are you saying that he was a bad parent but the simple fact is that you are the parent in this situation. As the parent you have to trust him to follow your wishes and that if your son does something that in your father's eyes would warrant a spanking then he is to refrain himself from hitting, tell him what is acceptable for discipline and if that doesn't work he can call you and you will come pick up your son and deal with the behavior. Tell him you don't want him to have to be the disciplinarian -- he is the grandad and you want their time together to be special.

As others have stated you probably won't change his mind but he should at least be able to respect your wishes as a parent. Also, explain to him whatever the consequences will be if he does decide to hit your child -- if you won't ever see him again or if all the visits will be supervised, etc.

Your kid, your rules and if you need to put it that bluntly to him.

Know that we're thinking of you, what a tough situation to be in.


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## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)

Thank you Cheshire.








I'm sure after we have our discussion, his mind will remain unchanged, and I will ultimately end up telling him exactly what you have said-"call me if there's a problem." At least I don't have to worry about this for another couple of years. In some ways, I think that he will respect my wishes because he knows what kinds of problems it could lead to if he did otherwise...We sorta went down that road before after he wouldn't stop telling me to let ds CIO, we had a huge arguement and did not speak to each other for a week afterwards. He said he missed his "grandboy" very much and apologized. But at the same time, I know that my dad has a very bad temper. He started yelling at his dog in front of ds the other day and it was very disconcerting for both me and ds. Time tells all I suppose.


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## maxwill129 (May 12, 2005)

Okay, I found some scripture that I think proves that spanking is wrong. You can interpret this how you want. I'll write a brief note on what I've found these to mean in my studies on spanking and child rearing.

Ephesians 6:4 says "And now a word to you fathers. Don't make your children angry by the way you treat them. Rather, bring them up with the discipline and instruction approved by the Lord."

Okay, I've studied this verse and think that this means parents are not to terrorize their children and make them angry towards the parents because of the way they were treated. What is approved by the Lord is to continually parent them because that is their responsibility given to them by the Lord. I think the Lord wants us to love our children- that is our job. One of my study Bibles says that "Children should be objects of tender, loving care." The Lord also wants us to nurture and correct our child (guide them along a godly path- again my study Bible says "Fathers and mothers who do not discipline their children are parents who are themselves undisciplined and disobedient to God's will.").

Proverbs 22:6 says "Teach your children to choose the right path; and when they are older, they will remain upon it."

Big emphasis on the word *teach*. Spanking is not teaching your children anything- you need to show your child respect in order to teach them respect, show your child love to teach them love, etc. And choosing the right path refers to dedicating, motivating, and instructing your children to do what God has best equipped them to do.

I don't know if anyone is still interested in this, but thought I would share some of my notes. I HATE how the Bible is misinterpreted all the time. Yes, I think you could very easily read Proverbs 13:24 to say that hitting your child is okay (even though I think it clearly is not about spanking), but I think other verses show that it's not okay to spank.

S.


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## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)




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## kiahnsmum (Oct 22, 2004)

I think many churches are willing to make progress is many areas except this one. In biblical times women weren't allowed to take on leadership roles but now we see many women in taht position, unfortunately the christians that do spank continue to use this scripture to justify what they do. It also says in the bible that men shouldnt cut the sides of their beards and not to eat pork, shrimp etc, how many christians do you know that abide by these biblical laws?


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## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)

A few churches abstain from unclean meat still because God specified this for health reasons.
God doesn't like..come out right and say "Beat those damned insolent kids!" though, so I fail to see how this is something that anyone could condone. I see your point though.


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## kiahnsmum (Oct 22, 2004)

Yeah sorry about that I was being really general, I'm a christian so I was kinda going from my experience with other christians. When I have told other christians that i dont eat pork (health reasons too) they are like oh thats covered by new testament law! So if we're supposed to follow New Testament law then I guess that menas being Christ like and I dont recall him saying anything about spanking.


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## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)

Well, Seventh Day Adventists don't eat unclean meat, don't feel it is covered by the NT, but that's another discussion.







But I totally agree about being Christ-like. I don't think that Jesus would've spanked any children.


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## maxwill129 (May 12, 2005)

You mamas are going to get sick of my little Bible study findings...it's just that this is so interesting (this thread) because this is what I've been studying to prove to my Christian family members that we're not spanking our kids and that that view IS biblical.

This is my new finding...

Proverbs 13:24 is just one verse on child rearing. There are many more verses on child rearing in this book. The whole book of Proverbs is actually written by Solomon to his son (father to son). Almost all of Proverbs is on verbal encouragement and teaching (and spanking does not fit into that). Another study Bible I found says that this parent-child conversation (from Solomon to his son) is a "warm one". Again, spanking does not fit into that description. The whole book of Proverbs is basically saying that parents are not meant to be enemies but allies who respect each other.

Also, if you want to get technical, Solomon wrote this for his son, who was "of age". That means he was passed his childhood and into young adulthood (I think in our society young adulthood starts at 14?). So if you want to say that this verse is about spanking, then you have to also say that it is said that spankings are for males only and males who have reached young adulthood.

S.


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## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)

That's interesting.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maxwill129*
You mamas are going to get sick of my little Bible study findings...it's just that this is so interesting (this thread) because this is what I've been studying to prove to my Christian family members that we're not spanking our kids and that that view IS biblical.

S.


Just wondering if you've found any more quotes?

~Nay


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## maxwill129 (May 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AntoninBeGonin*
Just wondering if you've found any more quotes?

~Nay

Sorry. I'm not getting to the computer much these days, so I didn't mean to take so long to answer you.

I've actually had to put my study on hold right now.







Our family is going through a bit of a tough time and I'm not having a lot of time to do research, but once I start up again I will keep posting my findings!

Shannon


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## Jen123 (Mar 16, 2004)

Disputing that verse with your parents , a verse they used to parent you , will not go over very well. It's basically saying to them that they were lousy parents. It's how they will interpret it.

When my mother said to me "spare the rod spoil the child" I said , 'ya know...my words are going to be my 'rod'. or you can say " so far I have found other discipline techinques and haven't needed to spank "


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## clairegrace (May 11, 2005)

I just wanted to let you know my story.

I was not raised in a GD home. My parents spanked when I was younger and sometimes with wooden kitchen utensils.

When I mentioned using GD after my first daughter was born, they just looked at me and said "Good Luck". But after 6, almost 7, years, they have come to respect our decision. They were also skeptical about the homeschooling thing too - lol.

Example is the best way to get across your beliefs and convictions. Arguing will not work - no matter how many statistics or verses you throw at them.

Cara


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## maxwill129 (May 12, 2005)

I appreciate the thoughts of the last two posters, but actually statistics is what changed my families mind about co-sleeping, vax, no circ, and a few other NFL practices. I probably came across snotty in my post, sounding like I wanted to prove my family wrong, but that's not the case at all. My family is very open to learning new things, but they want facts to back up things (not that I have to justify how I raise my children, but I do want them to learn about GD and no spanking).









Shannon


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## mike (Sep 5, 2005)

well thers several others and what you said I didnt interpete it like you did. If your looking for a nice way to do thing the bible isnt the best choce I mean acording to the bible were suposed to kill a child that hits or curses there parents. Were suposed to stone to death women who were mens clothing, homosexuals, and any one who works on the sabeth.


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## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)

Mike, that is part of the OT laws, which Jesus fulfilled...meaning that those are no longer laws to be followed.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

What an odd theory he has. But his part of his reasoning is wrong.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...archid=1396464

I know you cross posted in another forum, but there are some great threads in the Religious Studies areas about the meanings of that statement and how it has been greatly misinterpreted.


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## BetsyPage (Mar 5, 2004)

Sweetpeace, I see you are a new member here.







I recommend you do a bit more reading on the board first- the Pearl's views are not respected or endorsed on this board, the vast majority of mamas, both Christian and other, prefer non-adversial and non-punitive approaches to parenting.

I do not think spanking is biblical, and I have studied the rod verses myself. The Pearls discourage people from looking at the original language and promote using KJV only, and I believe this leads to their false teachings, both on marriage and parenting.


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## maxwill129 (May 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BetsyPage*
Sweetpeace, I see you are a new member here.







I recommend you do a bit more reading on the board first- the Pearl's views are not respected or endorsed on this board, the vast majority of mamas, both Christian and other, prefer non-adversial and non-punitive approaches to parenting.

I do not think spanking is biblical, and I have studied the rod verses myself. The Pearls discourage people from looking at the original language and promote using KJV only, and I believe this leads to their false teachings, both on marriage and parenting.

Thanks for posting that. I think sometimes new memebers see one or two forums they think are great but don't investigate the rest of the board!


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## sweetpeace (Nov 11, 2005)

I am sorry if I upset anyone. I was NOT aware of the rules but I did see that she was looking for a "rebuttal" which by definition means
Definitions of Rebuttal on the Web:

Evidence that attempts to *explain*, counteract or disprove facts given in evidence by the other party.

I thought she was looking for an explaination of the verse and I do agree that it is grossly misinterpreted.

I am used to forums where differing opinions are taken for what they are...diffferent!! I was not trying to start any wars or anything like that. I was simply offering my "explaination" of the verse(though it is not a verse per se)

I also didn't appreciate the other people who were misinterpreting the Bible and saying that God tells us to kill people. BUt again!!....not a debate forum!!!

Now I am very confused as to what my place is here, but I guess I wil stay off of this particular forum seeing as everyone believes differently than I.

Can someone tell me where I CAN go to explain myself or does everyone on MDC feel the way the folks here do? (NOT looking for flames!! This is an honest question..the whole board is so overwhelming and more than I could read in a whole day if I had one.







)

Thanks so much.


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:

Can someone tell me where I CAN go to explain myself
Casey, are you interested in learning about Attachment Parenting? That's what MDC's about, not explaining yourself regarding spanking on a gentle discipline subforum. Sorry to be so harsh, it's just there's not a lot of Pearl supporters around here. I will not mince words when I say they teach child abuse, not "proper spanking." Whipping your infant with plumbing tubing of a certain gauge is abusive, no matter how "lovingly" it's administered. There's plenty of forums to participate in and learn from, though, even if you disagree with gentle discipline.


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## sweetpeace (Nov 11, 2005)

WOW! I was told I would be flamed here, but didn't think it would be this bad!

I do not WHIP my children...and I do practice AP. I was explaining the verse that was in question!!! Her father must feel that spanking should be done in anger and that he didn't "knock enough sense" into her with his hand!!! That is wrong!

I also do not beat my children with plastic tubing! sheesh! pretty harsh accusation don't you think?!








I just felt that things were being taken out of context and the Bible was being VERY misinterpreted...and how is that acceptable but not explaining the verse at hand?

I understand NOW that this isn't a debate forum...and I wasn't trying to start one....but there are some forums out there where all sides are listenend to so that one can form his or her own opinions...that is what I am used to!!!
I wasn't looking for a place to go and shout out that I beat my children! I was wondering if there was a place where my opinion could be offered....and I would tell you what that is but I can't so everyone here now thinks that I beat my children with plastic tubing and whip them properly into submission!!
thanks for that!








I think I am done here....very friendly and gentle forum.


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

Casey, I have no doubt you do not whip your children with plastic tubing - I was not saying you did. But in your original post you were promoting the Pearls...and they do advocate that - *that* is what I take exception to (not your right to your interpretation of the "rod verses"). They set infants up in order to punish them, and advocate flexible whipping tools such as plastic tubing, branches, and hot glue gun sticks. He describes switching his 4 mos old with "a twelve-inch long, one-eighth-inch diameter sprig from a willow tree." Yes folks, you read that right. Four MONTHS old.

http://www. gospeltruth.net/children/pearl_tuac.htm (take out space after www. NB - explicit punishment/whipping described)

Dear mama - yes, I was flaming - flaming the Pearls, though, not you personally. I truly am sorry you advocate them but I do apologize for hurting your feelings. While I passionately disagree with your choices concerning discipline I must say there's plenty more to this site than the GD forum, and hope you stick around to see that.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

Casey, there is not a place to offer an opinion on using anything other than gentle discipline. No one was directly flaming you, they are flaming the Pearls and rightfully so. I read your post that was deleted as it can in my inbox, and as a new member who did not take the time to see what the purpose of this forum is about (one that many people put a lot of time and energy into) it was hurtful to myself and to others. You can definitely have an opinion. Unfortunately this is not the place to promote that one. Many other forums here value opinions and they are a main part of the forum.

Many here are familiar with Ezzo, the Pearls and others already. The main purpose of this forum is to help people use and understand gentle, positive discipline, and people feel infringed upon when you suggest they do something they vehemently are against. Maybe not even in theory, but in practice as well. Some people have never tried it, some people have. It varies. The main point is that we are all here to learn a gentle, positive approach. You suggested a book. Well, I read it, and I was horrified. I was chilled to the very core, and I am ashamed it is promoted in the name of Christianity.

A great avenue to consider if you are interested in learning why I and others do not spank or hit and use GD, is grace based parenting. It is a GD based parenting rooted in Christian principles. Also, a book called _Biblical Parenting_ is a great read.

Quote:

Based on biblical teachings, GBD is a nurturing, God-centered approach to parenting your child from birth to adulthood.

This carefully researched method of parenting has received results for families and children of all ages, backgrounds, and family structures. Taking the stand that parenting is a covenant and not a burden, GBD insists on the formation of loving bonds of trust and mutual respect that begin at birth and will carry on throughout a lifetime. These bonds help the child to foster good relationships with parents and peers with the added benefit of establishing a sense of self-worth that will be essential to a successful life.
More links
http://www.thesockgirl.com/?page_id=162
http://www.parentingbookmark.com/pages/CM04.htm

As canayiank said, there are a vast number of forums here besides Gentle Discipline, many of which may be informative and useful to you. Hopefully you will find this a gentle place to be on the whole and a wonderful resource for you.


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## pfblackwood (Nov 17, 2005)

I'm new here & haven't gotten through this entire thread, but was wondering what you all thought of the verses

Prov 22:15 - "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him"

and

Prov 23: 13-14 - "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with a rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."

Faith (married to Phil, Mom to Caitlin (3) & Marianne (1) - due in Jan w/ #3)


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## BetsyPage (Mar 5, 2004)

Are you honestly asking, like you don't have an opinion? I'm sort of wary of a new poster just popping into a thread like this with that question.

This isn't a debate forum, it's a support board for gentle discipline. So obviously, as a Christian who practices GD I don't believe those verses say to punish your child.







I don't think we look only to the "rod" verses for insight into our responsibility as a parent, though. But the meaning I take away from those verses is that it is important to teach, correct, and guide your children... but not to literally beat them. The whole "save their soul from hell" clause is a big clue that it is not appropriate to interpret it literally. No one is saved by being beaten, certainly not the smallest among us.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BetsyPage*
I don't think we look only to the "rod" verses for insight into our responsibility as a parent, though. But the meaning I take away from those verses is that it is important to teach, correct, and guide your children... but not to literally beat them.

BetsyPage, I agree wholeheartedly.

A PP said her words were her rod. I take that to mean the same--to teach, to correct and to guide my child. To be there for him.

This issue has been discussed many times (though not in the GD forum since it is not the place), and the verses have been discussed. I linked to some previous threads if you see my first post in this thread if you are interested in reading more. It is one of those issues that I just find hard to consider the other side.

Forgive me for quoting myself because I am not sure if you saw my post, pfblackwood.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meco*
A great avenue to consider if you are interested in learning why I and others do not spank or hit and use GD, is grace based parenting. It is a GD based parenting rooted in Christian principles. Also, a book called Biblical Parenting is a great read.

Quote:

Based on biblical teachings, GBD is a nurturing, God-centered approach to parenting your child from birth to adulthood.

This carefully researched method of parenting has received results for families and children of all ages, backgrounds, and family structures. Taking the stand that parenting is a covenant and not a burden, GBD insists on the formation of loving bonds of trust and mutual respect that begin at birth and will carry on throughout a lifetime. These bonds help the child to foster good relationships with parents and peers with the added benefit of establishing a sense of self-worth that will be essential to a successful life.

More links
http://www.thesockgirl.com/?page_id=162
http://www.parentingbookmark.com/pages/CM04.htm


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## pfblackwood (Nov 17, 2005)

I didn't mean to start a debate..just looking for your interpretations of those since the "rod" in other verses was shown as a rod of leadership/shepherding. I am new to the whole GD thing - not really sure of it I guess...just interested in your thoughts. Didn't mean to jump in as a newby & post something inappropriate, honestly just wanted your take.

Thanks for answering.

Faith


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## sparkprincess (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:

I don't think we look only to the "rod" verses for insight into our responsibility as a parent, though. But the meaning I take away from those verses is that it is important to teach, correct, and guide your children... but not to literally beat them. The whole "save their soul from hell" clause is a big clue that it is not appropriate to interpret it literally. No one is saved by being beaten, certainly not the smallest among us.










Not to mention, a true Rod (like ones used in Biblical times) were big, well, rods! Like a scepter. If you literally beat your child with one they very well could die and then that verse wouldn't make any sense at all!

FWIW, in the notes of my study Bible it said that they believe the word rod to mean authority.







I was pretty happy to hear that.

Oh, one more thing: It's never a good idea to take a verse or even a handful of verses and build your whole parenting philosophy or whatever around them. I think we always have to use those verses in context not only in regards to the surrounding verses, but the Bible as a whole. Particularly when you are dealing with Old Testament verses such as the rod verses. You have to weigh them against the whole of the Bible - especially Jesus' teachings.

Of course, this is just my understanding as a Christian. I don't know that everyone who reads the Bible or parts of the Bible would agree.









Anyway, not trying to start a debate, but just thought I'd give the op some more to chew on from my perspective since it seems I'm the same religion as her parents, ya know?


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## kindergirl77 (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sparkprincess*









Not to mention, a true Rod (like ones used in Biblical times) were big, well, rods! Like a scepter. If you literally beat your child with one they very well could die and then that verse wouldn't make any sense at all!


Exactly. There is a picture of a rod (shebet) on gentlechristianmothers.com and it is taller than me. There is no way you could actually beat a small child with this thing.
The "rod" is a symbol of authority. We are called to be the authority in our children's lives, to discipline them-(disciple them, meaning to teach). There are many points in the bible that are speaking not literally, but symbolically.

Also, I don't know if this was said before, but the "Spare the rod, spoil the child" saying is not an actual quote from the bible.

These are some of my favorite GBD (Grace based discipline) quotes:

"For you will nurse and be satisfied at her comforing breast, you will drink deeply and delight in her overflowing abundance. For this is what the Lord says: I will extend peace to her like a river and the wealth of nations like a flooding stream; you will nurse and be carried on her arm and dandled on her knees. As a mother comforts her child, so will I comfort you." Isaiah 66:11

"For though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your ROD and your staff, they comfort me"
Psalm 23:4
----From that verse it is clear to me that a rod is used as a leader/authority role to comfort, not to beat with--- the same lines of thought as the shepard who does not beat his sheep with the rod, but uses it to protect them.

"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love."
1 John 4:18

As for CIO: Jesus says to his disciples in John 14:18:
"I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you."

On a side note, I wanted to say that if you are afraid that your father may hurt your child, do not leave your child in his care alone. You know your father best, and if he has an explosive temper, then long periods of time alone with your dc is probably not a good idea.


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

Hi Faith! Welcome.









I once emailed my cousin, who has a PhD in OT Languages, about the "rod" or shebet verses. He replied that it could mean about 12 different things, from a literal stick to branch of Jesse (i.e., a lineage thing) and that it was difficult to translate a lot of things "looking back"...IOW, if we want it to be a literal rod b/c our worldview supports spanking, then that's how we'll read it.

I understand it to mean "discipline"...we, as parents, must discipline our children. How we do that is where the obvious differences lie. I do not think it says "spank" or "switch" - for if one is truly interpreting it literally then you need to take an inch-thick stick and beat your child with it. (And, as a pp mentioned, that COULD cause your child to die, which the verse says "it" won't).

There is nothing that says, "Take a wooden spoon on bare buttocks and hug afterwards" a la Dobson. Or, "Cut a willow switch of 1/8th inch and whip your baby with it" a la Pearl (please see my previous posts before I think I'm accusing you personally of these). These are still *interpretations* of the verses, not literal applications.

My point is this: We are instructed to discipline our children. The techniques will vary. And as much as I'd love to say the Bible is anti-spanking, I don't see that either. But we are NOT Biblically mandated to spank/physically punish, as many people think - but we are to discipline, i.e., TEACH, our children.

I teach mine w/o punishment.

I remember the first time I read about non-punitive parenting 4 yrs. ago...I didn't think it was possible. Or even desireable. I remember being, like you, being skeptical of the whole GD thing, too! But amazingly enough, my dh and I have become passionate supporters of Grace-Based Discipline. See www.aolff.org and www.gentlechristianmothers.com for more info.


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## Mommy!Mommy!Mommy! (Sep 15, 2005)

I actually found this thread accidently, but found it very interesting. I had never heard of the "Pearl" theory, so in the spirit of expanding my knowledge I looked on the aformentioned site. How very sad, I had to stop reading during the instructions for training up your infant so the adult would not be in servitude. That this practice is actually considered, saddens me. Associating "No" with pain of any degree is unbelievable. The thought that this is actually applied to children upsets me. This is ends justify the means thinking. I know I should probably read the whole thing before I post such a strong thought (so I am not talking out of my a**)but I don't want to subject myself to this coldness. I have enjoyed and learned so much from MDC but this (Pearl) is the pits! I'm so glad there is MDC and us out there. I'm done, being too dramatic I know, just shocked.


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

MMM - I debated whether to include that link, as it is graphic. But I had the same visceral reaction as you did the first time I read it, and I think people need to understand just exactly what he stands for.

I will go back, however, and add a disclaimer for poor unsuspecting folks...


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## loveharps (Mar 16, 2005)

Thank you for this thread. I am a relatively new Christian and have had these same opinions of the "Spare the Rod" verses for a while. Its nice to have people verbalise what I struggle to say.

I usually just stick to what Jesus said - "do unto others a you would have them do to you" Luke 6:31


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I believe that if your perception and opinions are already formed, or if you have entered a situation with your (concious or unconcious) mind already slanted towards a particular belief system, one can interpret anything to suit their already formed desire. (such as "Christians" who bomb abortion clinics and feel justified by biblical scripture)

In other words, two people can read and interpret the Bible vastly different depending on where they are in their lives when they begin. That goes with almost every other text known to man, whether religious or not. Some people feel that Romeo and Juliet is the ultimate story of true love at all costs and is the most romantic sentiment they have ever read. Others may see it as a tragic tale of two hormone crazed teenagers hell bent on defying their parents and who made a decision to take it all the way to death. Some people see both.

The way I gauge my own parenting is how I feel in my heart, soul, spirit and mind when I am interacting with my child. Equally important is how my child feels in all those ways and how she feels our relationship is -- if one or both of those are *off*, something isn't being done right (imo). Now, no one is perfect so you may not feel that way 100% of the time in every single situation, but it is a very accurate gauge to me.

No one need look to a book for an *excuse* to not hit their child. Worse, no one should be looking for any book as an excuse TO hit their child.

I sound judgemental because it is a judgement I feel comfortable in making that hitting is a form of violence. There is no way to sugar coat it or make it sound pretty. The act of intentionally hurting someone else, physically, even if you "don't leave a mark" or whatever parents say to justify hitting their children, is a violent act. I always shake my head when I read about "hitting with love" (Pearls and such) ... yeah, I could see my husband smacking me one in the face out of love...

I don't intend to offend anyone here who has come from a punitive background, or has made mistakes in their own parenting. Obviously if you are a returning member, you have realized or are in the act of realizing that hitting a child is not the form of "discipline" you would like to embrace, so no offense intended. The past can't be changed, but I commend anyone who is looking to change the future of their relationship with their child.


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## PaxMamma (Jul 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pfblackwood*

Prov 23: 13-14 - "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with a rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."


i've always considered verses like this to be hyperbole. the author was exaggerating to make a point. it's the same thing as me saying i'd rather slit my wrists than be a bus driver. (no offense to bus drivers, i just think it has to be the worst, most unthankful job there is).


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## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pfblackwood*
Prov 23: 13-14 - "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with a rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."

Faith (married to Phil, Mom to Caitlin (3) & Marianne (1) - due in Jan w/ #3)

My Bible says "Withhold not chastisement from a boy..."

In fact a lot of these rod verses are translated with the word "chastisement." I always thought of chastisement as a verbal rebuke, not physical punishment. And it's only directed at boys anyway, like a pp said, written from father to son. (I'm Catholic so I don't read KJV, that's why I have a different translation.)


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## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

I am jumping in... I was raised in a Christian home, and spanking/discipline/rod were all part of our life... even expected. It is just the way things were.....everyone at church (and I do mean EVERYone spanked, and you were remiss in your duties if you didnt) thought that the rod verses referred to beating children.

The pastor of the church bragged about how badly he beat his children...from the pulpit. I;ll spare you the details and not make you barf....

Now I am parenting my own dd, who is 2, and my ds, who is 5 mos.

And I honestly have no clue how to go about things..sometimes i feel bereft, and i start falling prey to the whole "she's manipulating me!!" "Ineed to make her obey!!" feelings.....

My brain tells me that she should obey me, respect me, and I want those things for us.

But how can I cause those things to happen if there are no consequences for her actions???

I have read all the "child training " books that were mentioned earlier, and in writing, it looks alot like what I grew up with. But in practice....welll, that's another story. I couldn't hit my five month old baby!! Especially, especially not with a stick that i bought jsut for that purpose!!!!!









I have a hard time letting go of my tendencies to want obedience all the time, and i try to remind myself that she is just two, but I seriously dont want my dd acting out of control and not listening, either!!


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## kindergirl77 (Jun 30, 2005)

I get those feelings too, that my dd must obey me, and I start to feel controlling and angry. I try to be loving and patient and remember that she is still little. BUT, I do think that its important that she follow my directions. Check out the gentle discipline board on gentlechristianmothers.com. That and the book 'biblical discipline' helped me to understand that I am the authority in my child's life, and when i ask her to do something, I expect her to comply. I don't expect 1st time obedience or anything like that, and I don't use punishment/spanking/time outs, but I expect her to follow my directions because I am called to discipline my child as it says in the bible. If she doesn't do what I ask, or says no, I help her to comply gently. i.e. if i need her to pick up her toys, i will ask her to please pick up her toys. If she says no, I will usually reflect her feelings like, "I know it so much fun to play and you don't want to stop to pick it up, but mommy needs you to pick it up so I don't trip on them." If she still doesn't, then I tell her, "Can you pick up your toys by yourself or do you need mommy to help you?" Usually she wants to do things herself, so she will start picking up. If she still doesn't I will say, "Okay, mommy is going to help you pick it up." And I usually scoot her over to where the toys are and "help" her pick up the toys. If she throws a total temper tantrum then I just wrap my arms around her, (if I can) and I whisper in her ear.( Usually reflecting her feelings) until she calms down, then I sit down with her and help her to pick up the toys. It never really gets to that point with us, but it has happened. Either way, what I ask gets done. When I ask her to do something, I expect her to comply, and I help her to succeed and comply if she can't do it herself. I try to be very consistant and help her understand that my words mean something by gently insisting that it gets done, helping her if needed.

Obviously this is a lot of steps and takes a lot of patience, but my dd is not yet 2, and when she is older I wouldn't do as much talking. Lately I have started counting, not like "When I get to 3 you better do it or I'll spank." but it gives her a time limit to transition.
i.e. she loves to play in the bathtub forever. When I need her to get out, it used to be such a cry-fest. Now I say, "dd, its time to get out of the tub." Then, "Lets get out and brush our teeth." She says NO!. then I will try to reflect her feelings, "I know its fun to play, but we need to get out now." I look at her with this raised eyebrow look and I say, "can you get out yourself, or do you need me to help you?" Then I will count. 1....2.....3.... or sometimes I count down or start from 10 depending on what it is. When I get to three, I say, "Okay, time to brush teeth, mama is going to help you get out of the bath now." And I take her out. I have done this so many times that she knows I'm consistant that when I count down, I will make her comply, so by the time I get to 3 she usually climbs out herself because she doesn't want me to help her. This has worked wonders for me from everything to getting in her carseat to not touching something that could hurt her. In that case I would say, "Can you stop yourself or do you need me to help you stop?" And everything is said in a loving and calm voice. I never shout or say things angrily. And things get done when I need them to most of the time.

However, I give dd plenty of room to explore and let her experience "natural consequences" and logical consequences - (all explained in Biblcial parenting.) But when certain things need to happen, I help them happen. But I do take into account her age and understand what is age-approapriate and I try to go at her speed most of the time. But I do believe that I am to disciple to my child and teach her in the ways she should go, as the bible says. For me, its a balance between allowing her freedom to be 2, and not going overboard and being too permissive.


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## mike (Sep 5, 2005)

All ot laws still aplie in nt mathew 5 17-19


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## sparkprincess (Sep 10, 2004)

Mike -

Are you condoning spanking? If so, this really isn't the place for you.

I don't want to get into a big debate as this really isn't the forum, but from the very verses you just posted :

Quote:

I have not come to abolish them but to *fulfill* them.
We've actually already kind of talked about that, maybe you should go back and reread the posts? Also, make sure you are reading the verses you posted in context.

PS. the book of Proverbs is not a law book. Oh, and as many people have mentioned, many of the words use in the rod scriptures can mean different things.


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## mike (Sep 5, 2005)

Why do people insist on trying to justafy things with books the bible contridicts its self so much that you can read what ever you want out of it. I dont know how people decide what is metaphorical or literal or hyperbole. I think the bible very clearly is prospanking but why do you need a book to tell you what is right you should just be able to logicaly know and feel what is right. you can read the bible if you want but I dont know how you can interpet the blueness of thy wunds shall clencethe the of evil proverbs 20-30 but if you can interpet that any other way than literal tell me.


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## mike (Sep 5, 2005)

no im just trying to make the point the bible or any book is not were to find out what is right or wrong you should just feel and know what seems right to you. you can read a book to tell you why what you feel is right. but the bible dosnt realy explain the why it just tells you shoulds.


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bamamom*
I have a hard time letting go of my tendencies to want obedience all the time, and i try to remind myself that she is just two, but I seriously dont want my dd acting out of control and not listening, either!!

Sure, that's a pretty big fear.







I second the ideas to check out the forums at www.gentlechristianmothers.com I think you will find a great balance there. It is absolutely possible to parent non-punitively w/o having "out of control" children.







Also, articles at www.aolff.org and the group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PositiveChristianAP/ are good resources. HTH!


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## kindergirl77 (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mike*
no im just trying to make the point the bible or any book is not were to find out what is right or wrong you should just feel and know what seems right to you. you can read a book to tell you why what you feel is right. but the bible dosnt realy explain the why it just tells you shoulds.

Mike, the bible is a sacred book to me that is my instruction book to life. It IS where to find what is right and wrong. Going by my feelings, I would love to just smack my dd across the face sometimes when I am feeling angry at her. Just because I feel it, doesn't make it right. I do not believe that the entire bible in context is pro-spanking. It is Jesus's overall message of love, grace and forgiveness that is pro-gentle discipline. And as someone said before, the "spanking" verses are not law. I also belive those verses are true when you look at them symbolically and not literally.


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## kindergirl77 (Jun 30, 2005)

I also wanted to mention that Proverbs 20:30 is not to be taken literally, and expecially is not referring to parenting or even hitting small children. A few verses before in verse 17, it says that "Food gained by fraud tastes sweet to a man, but he ends up with a mouth full of gravel." Obviously the man does not literally end up with gravel in his mouth.


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## sparkprincess (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mike*
Why do people insist on trying to justafy things with books the bible contridicts its self so much that you can read what ever you want out of it. I dont know how people decide what is metaphorical or literal or hyperbole. I think the bible very clearly is prospanking but why do you need a book to tell you what is right you should just be able to logicaly know and feel what is right. you can read the bible if you want but I dont know how you can interpet the blueness of thy wunds shall clencethe the of evil proverbs 20-30 but if you can interpet that any other way than literal tell me.

I've already told you how it can be interepreted differently.

Anyway, I understand the point you are trying to make and I'm positive the majority of the parents in this community probably agree with you regarding the Bible. HOWEVER, this isn't really what this thread is about.

While your opinion is certainly valid, it's not really going to do the OP any good. If she goes to her family and says, "well, ya know, the Bible is a complete mess and totally invalid" you can be sure that's the end of the discussion right there.

There are those of us who respectfully disagree with you and can offer the OP some insight on these verses from a Christian viewpoint.

Again, I totally understand that the Bible means nothing or very little to many people and therefore they can't understand what all the brouhaha (sp?) is about. But for Christians or those trying to relate to/understand where Christians are coming from you have to dig in and study the Bible, the root meanings of the words in scriptures, and the context surrounding those scriptures.

So, once again, if you would like to learn more about the Bible, and the validity of it or whatever, I encourage you to head over to the Spirituality forum. Lots of knowledgable women there. I'm just not sure it's doing much good here in this thread, ya know?


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## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

lurking around here


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