# How do you 'expect' kids to do something, or 'not give them a choice'?



## mambera (Sep 29, 2009)

I see many mamas on here say they 'just expect' that their children will do A, B, C, or that they 'don't give them a choice.'

What are the logistics of this?

I have an almost-4 year-old who this morning did not want to get dressed for preschool. I tried being funny (hokey pokey), bringing her clothes, encouraging her to choose her own clothes, telling her what a big girl she is and so good at getting dressed by herself, could she show me what a good job she does at getting dressed, etc. No dice. Eventually I said I had to go to work and she had to go to school and she was going to get dressed now. Then we had a huge tantrum. I physically dressed her (I am barely capable of this, she is big and strong), after which she removed all the clothing while continuing to scream.

Eventually DH stepped in and played the nice guy, and I left for work. If he had not been present I would have re-dressed her, dragged her screaming out to the car and strapped her in her seat with no shoes or jacket on, and let her calm down on the way to school.

This seems extreme and not what I picture when I hear I should just be able to 'expect' her to get dressed in the morning. Also I will not be able to physically do this for much longer. I can only barely do it now. (This is not an everyday occurrence - it was more frequent when she was two but now it is only once in a while. But there are other times when she flatly refuses to do something that I need her to do, and somehow I don't see her growing out of this in general.)

My question is, what are the nuts and bolts of 'setting an expectation' or 'not giving a choice' to a child that do not involve a wrestling match?

TIA


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

I will be very interested to see the responses to this because my experience with "I just expect" and "I don't allow" so far have universally translated into "my child has never actually defied me on this one"


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## salr (Apr 14, 2008)

Seriously.









I've seen the "waiting for the bus" tactic mentioned. Apparently if you just stand there and wait, as if you were waiting for a bus, that comes across as "expecting" or "knowing" something will happen and then the kid magically does it. I haven't had that work yet but I'm interested in hearing what everyone has to say, or learning if I'm misunderstanding this whole bus technique.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

I really think those parents who just expect something will happen and it actually does must radiate some kind of innate alpha dominance thing. That I don't have. And that can't be translated into a prescription of do this do that say it like this and voila your child will do it.


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## elus0814 (Sep 21, 2009)

I've never once had simply expecting something to be done to consistently work.... or even frequently work. I agree with you that sometimes there just isn't time to do anything but 'force' a kid into their clothes or into their carseat. It's gotten worse the older the kids get. Not only are they now old enough to understand that I can seldom actually force them to do something they don't want to do but they also are giving bad examples to the younger ones. That said, they are now old enough to think that not getting dressed or throwing a fit over something they don't like is not worth their time.


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## mamabear0314 (May 13, 2008)

I'd do just what you said. Force them to get dressed and put them in the car. Sometimes there really isn't a choice. People have to go to work, school, appointments..


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## Nightwish (Sep 9, 2008)

It depends on the age of the kid. With a 3 y/o, I would do what you did.

With my 8 y/o, I take the "waiting for the bus" approach. But with him, it's easier to reason.


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## LiLStar (Jul 7, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie*
> 
> I really think those parents who just expect something will happen and it actually does must radiate some kind of innate alpha dominance thing. That I don't have. And that can't be translated into a prescription of do this do that say it like this and voila your child will do it.


Interesting thought. Ever notice at a group gathering of sort, sometimes someone (in charge, an organizer) will say "Hey everybody, can I have your attention?" or something of the effect.. and everyone just keeps on chatting, or a few people listen, but its really hard to get everyone paying attention. And its an awkward thing for the would-be announcer to get a group of adults to pay attention. Then, someone comes along (a friend, assistant, whoever) and just shouts, "Hey! Everyone listen up, ____ has an announcement!" and suddenly.. everyone listens? I'm always the first one, trying to get everyone's attention. I've always wondered if I'd get a little more cooperation from my kids sometimes if I was 2nd type. I'm not sure what it is, or if this is a trait that can be learned. I definitely don't have the innate alpha dominance thing. Reminds me of a time I was teaching a class to 4-5yos once a week (only 3-4) and they walked all over me no matter what I did. At the time I was thinking that I felt like I must give off the vibe of a teenage babysitter who lets them eat ice cream and stay up past their bedtime instead of, as you say, an alpha vibe.

But yeah, there are times I'm just in shock at how ignored I am as mom sometimes! And I'm sure all parents feel like this, at least sometimes  Sometimes I'm just stunned, like, "can't they be just a LITTLE afraid of me?!"


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## Skippy918 (Jul 15, 2008)

I'm wondering the same thing. DS is 4 and I have to repeat myself many times to get him to do what I need him to do. DH only tells him once and he listens.


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## babymommy2 (May 14, 2009)

I think when people say they expect certain things and don't give a choice they mean the kid has consequences for not doing it. The things you need them to do also change as the age changes. Two of children at 2/3/4 would have days they refused to get dressed, or refused to put on Pj's and I forcibly did it for them. What else can you do when you have to go out? If my 2 year old refuses to get in the car seat i have to forcibly practically bend him in half to him seated enough to get the seat belt on, but the only other option is to not pick up the kids from school, which of course is not an option at all, so you just do what you have to do. My older school aged kids always put on a seat belt. It has never once been an issue. by the time they are old enough to put on their own seatbelt it has been years of the same thing, so they never question it. My now 9 year old who would not get dressed wouldn't be caught dead not wearing clothes or wearing his PJ's at school (I used to threaten that in kindergarten if he didnt' hurry up and get dressed for school and i was fully prepared for him to go to school in him PJ's one day, but he always got dressed at the last minute). Of course there are other things now they don't like to do, but they have consequences for not doing those things and they know what it is, so they have a choice they have to make.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I have been thinking about this a lot lately because I am trying to figure out how to help my assistant figure this out and make it work for her. As a mom and a preschool teacher I have many things that I just expect to happen and they do happen. I am not really sure how to explain how to make this successful though because it is just a natural thing to me. I don't think consequences have much to do with it because I don't often use anything beyond the look and my assistant is forever having to resort to consequences and children still act out with her in ways they won't with me. I do think consistently following through with what you are asking a child to do has a lot to do with this though. This is much easier as a teacher than it is as a mother and I definitely have more periods of being ignored as a mom than I do as a teacher.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

I think it is not something that can be explained, because it involves the subconscious.

When my son was young there were things I expected him to understand, such as 'I'd love to buy that, but we need the money for food'. I was totally sincere when I said it, and he never made a fuss. Because it was totally true and completely sincere, and I expected him to realize that, he did. I'm sure subconsciously my attitude was different than a 'that is a piece of junk, and I do not want to buy it' attitude. I wouldn't be able to tell you what was different, but he saw it, every time. Kids respond to subtle signals.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

I would have taken her to preschool in her jammies. (Only once did my 3 year old leave the house in jammies. It just never came up again. She did look really cute at the vet appointment in a pink princess nightgown. )

Plan ahead -- all clothes laid out the night before. No choices for her. Just select her clothes, show her where they are, talk about what she will be wearing.

Phrasing -- "once you are dressed, we will Name Of Thing She'll Be Happy About."

Reminder, "first get dressed, then Name of Thing She'll Be Happy About."

You may have to ignore some nonsense from her at first, but ignoring nonsense is a completely gentle thing to do. If you ignore the nonsense, it becomes a lot less interesting to her. Right now, its too much of a game, and you have the power to stop the game.

BTW, did she get enough sleep the night before? Could she be coming down with something?


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## LitMom (Mar 6, 2012)

I say it, they do it, or there are consequences. Those might be logical, or they might be punitive. But they are consequences, not choices that can be freely chosen between. The only reason it works is because they know that I will follow through. If they think I won't, then they don't bother. It completely sucks about 4 days out of a year when it's being challenged, but one of those days and then they know you mean business the rest of the year until they decide to challenge it again a few months later.

In the morning, I say "Do you have all your gear?" and make DD check and gather (she's nearly 9). For my son, who is 5, I have him help me check and gather stuff for his classes. Sure, they've "defied" me about it now and then, but I don't tolerate that either. Instant time out until it's done. And if that means no breakfast, or lunch, or playground time, or bedtime story, so be it. I allot extra time to have a snack before classes. Always near the class itself, so we will be on time. If they dally getting ready, then no snack time remains. (Sometimes transit throws off snack and the kids haven't dallied. Then we do the snack after class instead.)

We also have rules for proper behavior when unhappy. Stomping=time out and loss of a toy for a day. Door slamming=1 week loss of a toy for every time the door slams. Lost property? Allowance will have to pay for a new one. I've done the "waiting for a bus" and it does work, but I don't know if it would work without fairly strict rules otherwise.

I don't think it's ever meant missing a meal, but they've missed sleepovers, parties, and playdates. I lift the five year old when needed. I would lift the eight year old if it was needed. On one recent defiant day, my daughter had to sit in a cafe and watch while her brother and I had a cupcake and she got none. She had to call a friend and explain that she had lost the right to a planned sleepover. She had to explain to her father that she couldn't have a bedtime story and why, and she went to bed quite early. She was miserable. She doesn't want to do that again. (She actually needed more sleep, so the early to bed was less of a punishment and more of a "you need to do this," but it wasn't her choice to go to bed early. I sent her there.)

It's not super gentle as it involves time outs and loss of privileges, but we do a ridiculous number of activities, and they are starting to understand the trade off there. Since one of the things that would happen in the real world is that if you're a snot to someone, they don't want to do things for you, I think it's reasonable that if they act like brats, I won't want to do things for them, and hence they won't get cupcakes and cool trips and special gifts. I explained this morning that if they wanted to do all the activities they wished for valentines tomorrow, today would be extremely busy and could NOT involve me dragging whining children around. Whine, and an activity for today is gone. They had a moment here or there, but considering that we accomplished 3 crafts, housecleaning, homeschooling, 6 errands, 2 extracurricular classes, and baths, they were impressively good. They were so well behaved that they were given 4 toys/tchotches for free in two different places, just because they were "so sweet."


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## LitMom (Mar 6, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mambera*
> 
> I see many mamas on here say they 'just expect' that their children will do A, B, C, or that they 'don't give them a choice.'
> 
> ...


It's a power struggle. Don't even try being funny, bringing her clothes, encouraging her to choose her own. Refuse to do it. Be bored of it. It will be easier to break with your husband available though. Tell her you're leaving at x o'clock and having breakfast in x minutes. "Get dressed and come have breakfast with me. Then I'll take you to school." Give her the clothes you've chosen. Then go on with your own routine. Don't remind her. Don't nag her. Don't listen to any argument about different clothes. "Shrug. I'm not going to argue with you about what clothes." When she isn't ready, and she won't be on the first day, LEAVE. Tell her calmly that it's time for you to leave, and you're sad you didn't get to have breakfast with her or take her to school. She will probably throw a fit. Just leave. Immediately. Calmly. Let your husband deal with it. The next morning, say the same darn thing. Refuse to discuss it. Refuse to argue about it. Tell her you will be leaving at x and having breakfast at x. "I'd love for you to get dressed and come have breakfast with me. Then I'll take you to school."


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## mambera (Sep 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LitMom*
> 
> It's a power struggle. Don't even try being funny, bringing her clothes, encouraging her to choose her own. Refuse to do it. Be bored of it. It will be easier to break with your husband available though. Tell her you're leaving at x o'clock and having breakfast in x minutes. "Get dressed and come have breakfast with me. Then I'll take you to school." Give her the clothes you've chosen. Then go on with your own routine. Don't remind her. Don't nag her. Don't listen to any argument about different clothes. "Shrug. I'm not going to argue with you about what clothes." When she isn't ready, and she won't be on the first day, LEAVE. Tell her calmly that it's time for you to leave, and you're sad you didn't get to have breakfast with her or take her to school. She will probably throw a fit. Just leave. Immediately. Calmly. Let your husband deal with it. The next morning, say the same darn thing. Refuse to discuss it. Refuse to argue about it. Tell her you will be leaving at x and having breakfast at x. "I'd love for you to get dressed and come have breakfast with me. Then I'll take you to school."


Well, I do leave if I need to leave. She doesn't generally care. Usually DH takes her to school in the AM, I was trying to do it yesterday because he had a meeting to get to on time - but since the situation deteriorated he ended up taking her anyway. There have been occasions when she wanted me to take her to school (which I will do if my schedule allows and she requests it). On those occasions she gets dressed promptly to leave. On days when she doesn't specifically want me to take her she doesn't have an issue with me leaving without her (since that's our usual routine anyway).

Also there's an end-of-the-road to the leaving tactic. If she refuses to get ready to school so DH and I both leave without her, then what? She can't stay home all day with my ILs and DD2, she would drive my ILs insane and destroy DD2's nap schedule. *I* don't want that outcome, but she would probably be fine with it, esp since MIL would just let her watch TV all day.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LitMom*
> 
> I say it, they do it, or there are consequences. Those might be logical, or they might be punitive. But they are consequences, not choices that can be freely chosen between. The only reason it works is because they know that I will follow through. If they think I won't, then they don't bother. It completely sucks about 4 days out of a year when it's being challenged, but one of those days and then they know you mean business the rest of the year until they decide to challenge it again a few months later.
> 
> In the morning, I say "Do you have all your gear?" and make DD check and gather (she's nearly 9). For my son, who is 5, I have him help me check and gather stuff for his classes. Sure, they've "defied" me about it now and then, but I don't tolerate that either. Instant time out until it's done.


I like this approach and it is the way I would prefer to parent generally. But I have a lot of trouble implementing. I do follow through on any warnings but it is inevitably incredibly tiring and disruptive to do so. And it isn't four days out of the year, it's more like one day in three or so. (Also in order to do so I often have to argue with my husband who does not understand why consistency is important and is generally a bad combination of 90% indulgent pushover/10% random escalation.)

Eg timeouts: I use them after a count of three for irritating/inappropriate behavior, and without a count for any violence (hitting etc). I'd say DD1 gets a timeout about once every three days. The thing is that in order to make the timeout happen I have to drag her kicking and screaming to her room, and either sit there holding her on my lap while she struggles for the entire period of the timeout, or dump her in there and shut the door fast, then stand there holding the door until the timeout is over. It is incredibly disruptive. This has been going on for about a year now. It's not getting better. What can I do to 'set an expectation' that she comply with a timeout on her own? I have the same question about some of your other consequences. Eg if I told DD1 to explain to her dad why she wasn't getting a story, she would just throw a tantrum (or rather escalate the tantrum she was already throwing about being denied the story).


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

I'm enjoying this conversation and will jump in. You are up against your need to get out the door for work. This is a handicap, and one that cannot be changed. You have no time for time outs, or much of anything else because of your time constraints. As far as your specific difficulties, my kids dress in their street clothes for bed. A bit rumpled? Sure. But it eliminates exactly half of all potential power struggles.

As far as your general question, I agree with katelove:

Quote:


> I will be very interested to see the responses to this because my experience with "I just expect" and "I don't allow" so far have universally translated into "my child has never actually defied me on this one"


I have always wondered this myself, and either it is as above, or it is a system of threats and punishments. I am not entirely innocent of this as well. We homeschool. We have few obligations. So, I get to say "we'll skip gymnastics then". When I'm in the car and fighting starts, I pull over and sit until the fighting stops. I have that luxury. And I have been known, when the kids were portable, to carry them screaming from the house because I was going to explode with another day at home and I knew they were going to have FUN but, being that little, they couldn't get past the the fact that they were getting in the CAR.

As far as expectations go, they get continual reminders of my expectations. These are ones like "don't call people stupid, no matter how angry you are", "trying to punch your sister but missing is still aggressive and against the rules." This takes forever, but I have confidence that they will not, at 16 and 18, be almost-punching and calling each other "stupid head". I expect them to not "throw their grumps around" when feeling angry. Does that stop them? Not yet. Other times I simply state it as fact, and it works. Go figure. I have no idea why it works sometimes and not others.

In general, though, I still feel the above quote is quite true. I asked a similar question in the recent thread on picky eating and didn't get many responses. The one I did confirmed one suspicion-- she used rewards to get the kids to eat.

This is especially true when the events of the day are--by design or necessity-- more focused on the needs of the parents than the child. It is not her choice to leave when you need her to leave. Both of you work. This is not her choice. This isn't necessarily your choice either--but it is most definitely not hers. Whenever we are faced with a similar dynamic, there we will meet the most resistance. So, to "expect" something without rewards or punishments, you need to talk with her. At bedtime, you need to tell her what she needs to expect in the morning. Let her know that you understand it upsets her not to be given a choice in the matter, but you can do whatever to make it easier to get out the door. Ask her why she fights you so much--you might be surprised and she might tell you. Or she might say "Did you know the Tooth Fairy rides a butterfly?" And you say "I need you to listen. You can wear tomorrow's clothes tonight ----wouldn't that be silly???? And I thought about eating breakfast at night, too, but that doesn't work very well. When we get in the car, would you like an second breakfast and have a granola bar? What can we pack tonight for you to do in the car on the way?" Etc. Then, get her in the car, no matter what. No shoes (pack'em) no breakfast (pack it, offer it in the car, beg the teacher to offer it at school) no coat (pack'em and let the teacher handle this) if need be.

Also, ask dh to let you get this, start to finish. Maybe he can help you get her out the door with you, but don't let him swoop in to save you. If nothing else, you need to gain the confidence that you can do this. Because--and I'm sure of this--sometimes it really just is that presence that subconsciously soothes the whole situation. If I had a clue as to when this was going to work and when it wasn't, I think I'd be rich.


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## LitMom (Mar 6, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mambera*
> 
> Well, I do leave if I need to leave. She doesn't generally care. Usually DH takes her to school in the AM, I was trying to do it yesterday because he had a meeting to get to on time - but since the situation deteriorated he ended up taking her anyway. There have been occasions when she wanted me to take her to school (which I will do if my schedule allows and she requests it). On those occasions she gets dressed promptly to leave. On days when she doesn't specifically want me to take her she doesn't have an issue with me leaving without her (since that's our usual routine anyway).
> 
> Also there's an end-of-the-road to the leaving tactic. If she refuses to get ready to school so DH and I both leave without her, then what? She can't stay home all day with my ILs and DD2, she would drive my ILs insane and destroy DD2's nap schedule. *I* don't want that outcome, but she would probably be fine with it, esp since MIL would just let her watch TV all day.


Then just take her in whatever state of undress she's in, with her clothes in a bag. It should be embarrassing for her. If you stick to it 100%, it will decrease. If you stick to it 90%, she will keep doing it, worse and worse, and longer and longer, because she's being given intermittent rewards to do so, which are generally the most reinforcing. I don't follow Dr. Phil, but this article talks about the intermittent reinforcement and power struggle aspect: http://www.drphil.com/articles/article/163


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## LitMom (Mar 6, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mambera*
> 
> I like this approach and it is the way I would prefer to parent generally. But I have a lot of trouble implementing. I do follow through on any warnings but it is inevitably incredibly tiring and disruptive to do so. And it isn't four days out of the year, it's more like one day in three or so. (Also in order to do so I often have to argue with my husband who does not understand why consistency is important and is generally a bad combination of 90% indulgent pushover/10% random escalation.)
> 
> Eg timeouts: I use them after a count of three for irritating/inappropriate behavior, and without a count for any violence (hitting etc). I'd say DD1 gets a timeout about once every three days. The thing is that in order to make the timeout happen I have to drag her kicking and screaming to her room, and either sit there holding her on my lap while she struggles for the entire period of the timeout, or dump her in there and shut the door fast, then stand there holding the door until the timeout is over. It is incredibly disruptive. This has been going on for about a year now. It's not getting better. What can I do to 'set an expectation' that she comply with a timeout on her own? I have the same question about some of your other consequences. Eg if I told DD1 to explain to her dad why she wasn't getting a story, she would just throw a tantrum (or rather escalate the tantrum she was already throwing about being denied the story).


I'd say the reason it's going on for a year is because it's so exhausting and you or your husband give in that 10% of the time. So she knows if she pushes hard enough, she'll win. I've held doors shut, but I don't hold it the whole time for time outs. In the room, door closed. I used the bathroom as a secondary time out spot until this year because the kid bedroom had no door. Won't go? Leave time out? Bathroom. More boring and less comfy. Made their screaming echo badly and hurt their own ears too. Conveniently, when they were 4-ish they couldn't unlock the door themselves, so that was easy to lock and then shut the door.

The other thing is to just avoid power struggles as much as possible. Refuse to argue about what she wears. If it's horribly inappropriate, let her be cold/hot/get wet feet within reason. If it's really really inappropriate wear, pack a decent outfit or proper shoes for her to change into at school.

It's also age. It was worse at 4 for both my kids. They're 5.5 and nearly 9 now, so they know the routines of punishments and time out expectations. Some of it you just have to ride out. I told my son for a while that he couldn't eat dinner with us, because he always found something to throw a fit about--he didn't like the way the napkin was positioned, whatever. He had a number of dinners alone for a while.

I don't mean to sound like it's all fine now, because we still have plenty of hard times and arguments. But I'd say the really really bad days are months apart now.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

If we are keeping responses within the philosophy of Gentle Discipline, I would say this doesn't sound all that Gentle to me.


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## lilitchka (Jan 19, 2012)

My kids are only 1 and 3 and a half.

what works so far is trying to figure out why my Ds1 refuses to do something that I expect from him.

a lot of time,s it is because we don't have good connection at the moment.

either because he is tired, hungry, overexcited etc.... or because I have inappropriate expectation.

For example, if he is in the middle of having fun with his toys, and I want him to get dressed and leave the house with me rapidly because I am late, it's not appropriate for me to expect that he will do it happily.I know that he will be upset. If I take a second to see through his eyes, I can understand that what I am expecting from him is very upsetting. He has to stop the fun he is having right now. He has to start doing non fun things and he has to do them rapidly.

So here what works with him in this kind of situations (but might not work for another kid):

I tell him: '' We are leaving the house now, come with me please to put your shoes and coat on''

he will usually say: ''I don't want to leave, I don't want to put shoes on''

then I would come close to him, at his level and calmly say: ''I know you don't want, you are unhappy to stop your play'' and hug him.

the fact that I acknowledge his feelings helps a lot to stop a tantrum from starting.

But i don't justify or apologize in any way, just acknowledge his feelings. I don't say: ''we you ahve to stop playing because this and that'' or ''mommy is late, so you have to do this and that''

he is too young for that and it only opens a door for arguing.

By avoiding explanations, the focus of the interaction is not on the event, but on the child,s feelings and on our relationship (the fact that i know how he feels)

it avoids power struggles, because the discussion is not about power.

I try to avoid bribing (and I never needed to punish in any way yet....but they are still young, I might need to do it later).

But what I use often, is something similar to bribing, in a more positive way.

I remind or inform my DS1 about another activity we will be doing later.

.....ds2 is crying....will be back


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

I've read through this thread and OMGoodness, if some of these responses are gentle discipline, then I'd hate to hear what is not gentle discipline.

A parent can be their child's partner in life & figuring out how to make family life work taking everyone's needs & wants into consideration or the parent can be the dictator. I feel bad for the children of the parents here who have decided to be the dictator. Dh has a thing he says: he's parenting our children so they actually WANT to take care of us when we're older. IMO, working to be your child's partner will go towards accomplishing that & being your child's dictator will not.

Quote:


> I say it, they do it, or there are consequences. Those might be logical, or they might be punitive. But they are consequences, not choices that can be freely chosen between. The only reason it works is because they know that I will follow through. If they think I won't, then they don't bother. It completely sucks about 4 days out of a year when it's being challenged, but one of those days and then they know you mean business the rest of the year until they decide to challenge it again a few months later.
> 
> In the morning, I say "Do you have all your gear?" and make DD check and gather (she's nearly 9). For my son, who is 5, I have him help me check and gather stuff for his classes. Sure, they've "defied" me about it now and then, but I don't tolerate that either. Instant time out until it's done. And if that means no breakfast, or lunch, or playground time, or bedtime story, so be it. I allot extra time to have a snack before classes. Always near the class itself, so we will be on time. If they dally getting ready, then no snack time remains. (Sometimes transit throws off snack and the kids haven't dallied. Then we do the snack after class instead.)
> 
> ...


So, it's do what I say or else. What punishment do parents who espouse this sort of thing for their children get when they make a mistake? A child is communicating w/ his/her parent when s/he "misbehaves." The parent can choose to see it as communication & help the child through it so they can mature & avoid making the same mistake again or the parent can punish, teaching the child that those w/ more power are the rulers. This is called adultism & some feel it leads to all the other -isms out there. Here's more children "misbehaving:" http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/thomas_gordon2.html

Quote:


> It's a power struggle. Don't even try being funny, bringing her clothes, encouraging her to choose her own. Refuse to do it. Be bored of it. It will be easier to break with your husband available though. Tell her you're leaving at x o'clock and having breakfast in x minutes. "Get dressed and come have breakfast with me. Then I'll take you to school." Give her the clothes you've chosen. Then go on with your own routine. Don't remind her. Don't nag her. Don't listen to any argument about different clothes. "Shrug. I'm not going to argue with you about what clothes." When she isn't ready, and she won't be on the first day, LEAVE. Tell her calmly that it's time for you to leave, and you're sad you didn't get to have breakfast with her or take her to school. She will probably throw a fit. Just leave. Immediately. Calmly. Let your husband deal with it. The next morning, say the same darn thing. Refuse to discuss it. Refuse to argue about it. Tell her you will be leaving at x and having breakfast at x. "I'd love for you to get dressed and come have breakfast with me. Then I'll take you to school."


I am







that the word "break" is being used in the gentle discpline forum of mothering as well as the rest. These are not horses that we are trying to tame. These are not animals we are trying to train. People who treat children as less than end up creating people who feel less than.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mambera*
> I like this approach and it is the way I would prefer to parent generally. But I have a lot of trouble implementing. I do follow through on any warnings but it is inevitably incredibly tiring and disruptive to do so. And it isn't four days out of the year, it's more like one day in three or so. (Also in order to do so I often have to argue with my husband who does not understand why consistency is important and is generally a bad combination of 90% indulgent pushover/10% random escalation.)
> 
> Eg timeouts: I use them after a count of three for irritating/inappropriate behavior, and without a count for any violence (hitting etc). I'd say DD1 gets a timeout about once every three days. The thing is that in order to make the timeout happen I have to drag her kicking and screaming to her room, and either sit there holding her on my lap while she struggles for the entire period of the timeout, or dump her in there and shut the door fast, then stand there holding the door until the timeout is over. It is incredibly disruptive. This has been going on for about a year now. It's not getting better. What can I do to 'set an expectation' that she comply with a timeout on her own? I have the same question about some of your other consequences. Eg if I told DD1 to explain to her dad why she wasn't getting a story, she would just throw a tantrum (or rather escalate the tantrum she was already throwing about being denied the story).


I would say that it sounds like you are having trouble because some part of you knows there's another way to do this, you just haven't figured out what that way (more likely more than one way) is. Here's more on timeouts. THey are a punishment just like going to jail is a punishment. If punishment worked, then there would be no repeat offenses. http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/peter_haiman.html

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SweetSilver*
> 
> I'm enjoying this conversation and will jump in. *You are up against your need to get out the door for work.* This is a handicap, and one that cannot be changed. You have no time for time outs, or much of anything else because of your time constraints. As far as your specific difficulties, *my kids dress in their street clothes for bed. A bit rumpled? Sure. But it eliminates exactly half of all potential power struggles.*
> 
> ...










to everything I bolded & most of the rest. In this response, the parent is the one changing because all we can really control is ourselves. Trying to control our children only results in children who turn into adults who don't know how to control themselves. Unfortunately, I know this from experiences. Expecting your children to change only leads to frustration. Children (the vast majority) are not capable of being the ones to do the changing because they are not mature enough yet to put the needs/wants/whatever of others ahead of themselves. They are selfish because that's how thye're supposed to be. They will not become unselfish by "breaking" them. It will be the opposite.

Quote:


> Then just take her in whatever state of undress she's in, with her clothes in a bag. It should be embarrassing for her. If you stick to it 100%, it will decrease. If you stick to it 90%, she will keep doing it, worse and worse, and longer and longer, because she's being given intermittent rewards to do so, which are generally the most reinforcing. I don't follow Dr. Phil, but this article talks about the intermittent reinforcement and power struggle aspect: http://www.drphil.com/articles/article/163


I wonder how the child will feel about themselves when the parent thinks that something "should be embarrassing" for them. How does this promote connection with the child? Dr. Phil wants no parts of gentle parenting. And why would he? Then there won't be people coming to him for many years because they're screwed up because their parents only worked them over & instead of worked w/ them. I loved Dr. Phil pre-parenthood. Now, I take very little to heart of what he says. I wonder if his children will want to become his parent when they are old & need care taking? Will Dr. Phil be there w/ all the parents who are caregiver-less because they are following his hard line approach to everything. Doubtful.

Quote:


> I'd say the reason it's going on for a year is because it's so exhausting and you or your husband give in that 10% of the time. So she knows if she pushes hard enough, she'll win. I've held doors shut, but I don't hold it the whole time for time outs. In the room, door closed. I used the bathroom as a secondary time out spot until this year because the kid bedroom had no door. Won't go? Leave time out? Bathroom. More boring and less comfy. Made their screaming echo badly and hurt their own ears too. Conveniently, when they were 4-ish they couldn't unlock the door themselves, so that was easy to lock and then shut the door.
> 
> The other thing is to just avoid power struggles as much as possible. Refuse to argue about what she wears. If it's horribly inappropriate, let her be cold/hot/get wet feet within reason. If it's really really inappropriate wear, pack a decent outfit or proper shoes for her to change into at school.
> 
> ...


I'd say the reason it's gone on for a year is because the child is *still* attempting to communicate w/ her parent & she is still not being heard. Children sure are persistent, arent' they? They keep giving us chances to hear them & to respond out of love instead out of our place of power. How will the child who's parent refuses to communicate w/ them learn to communicate? How will the child who's parent refuses to communicate w/ them learn to compromise? How will they learn to find alternatives? How will they learn to work w/ others if the ones they rely on the most refuse to work w/ them? What are they really learning? I'd say how to use their power over others. Is that really what we want for our children?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SweetSilver*
> 
> If we are keeping responses within the philosophy of Gentle Discipline, I would say this doesn't sound all that Gentle to me.



















My children are not perfect by my own standards nor anyone elses. But they are children & they know that I will work w/ them to figure out life, to figure out how to work together, to figure out how to live when we have to meet others needs besides their own (example, to play) and mine (ex, to get out of the house by a certain time). They won't be in my shoes when they are an adult trying to figure out how to live life & work w/ others & compromise & not get defensive when someone wants to discuss something. They will have lots of practice w/ us while they're young.

A few books that would likely have additional ideas for the OP: Kids, Parents & Power Struggles, How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids WIll Talk, Parent Effectiveness Training, Playful Parenting.

Best wishes,

Sus

ETA - another book title


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## mambera (Sep 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SweetSilver*
> Let her know that you understand it upsets her not to be given a choice in the matter, but you can do whatever to make it easier to get out the door. Ask her why she fights you so much--you might be surprised and she might tell you. Or she might say "Did you know the Tooth Fairy rides a butterfly?" And you say "I need you to listen. You can wear tomorrow's clothes tonight ----wouldn't that be silly???? And I thought about eating breakfast at night, too, but that doesn't work very well. When we get in the car, would you like an second breakfast and have a granola bar? What can we pack tonight for you to do in the car on the way?" Etc. Then, get her in the car, no matter what. No shoes (pack'em) no breakfast (pack it, offer it in the car, beg the teacher to offer it at school) no coat (pack'em and let the teacher handle this) if need be.


This is good advice but I don't see how to implement it for something that is an intermittent rather than a recurrent problem. 90% of the time she does get ready for school within a reasonable amount of time. But then we may have a different power struggle over something else, at another time. And at the time of the power struggle she is often not in a mood to respond to empathy, humor, or inquiry.

I should mention that breakfast in the car, going to school in PJs (no big deal actually hers are just soft pants and a tee so it was never super obvious they were her jammies), no coat/no shoes/packing appropriate clothes to go are all things we have done in the past at various times, as necessary.

I'm not really asking how to get her to school. It's more of a global question about how to get any needed discipline to be a calmer experience for everyone.

By the way the reason she got upset (I think) was because the plan that day was for DH to take her to school and we tried to switch things at the last minute to ensure he would get to his meeting on time. He went in the shower and I was left to take DD1 to school. She actually told me she wanted Daddy to get her ready when I first told her to get dressed; I explained that he was in the shower and I was going to take her to school. It went downhill from there. In hindsight I should have just let DH know that he needed to speed up his shower and take her (which is what ended up happening anyway). Of course at the time it wasn't obvious that the issue was going to blow up into WWIII. There have been other times when she was perfectly unruffled or even pleased by a change in which parent would be taking her to school that day.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LitMom*
> 
> Then just take her in whatever state of undress she's in, with her clothes in a bag. It should be embarrassing for her. If you stick to it 100%, it will decrease. If you stick to it 90%, she will keep doing it, worse and worse, and longer and longer, because she's being given intermittent rewards to do so, which are generally the most reinforcing. I don't follow Dr. Phil, but this article talks about the intermittent reinforcement and power struggle aspect: http://www.drphil.com/articles/article/163


As I mentioned I am consistent. (I am well aware of the reinforcing effects of intermittent reward schedules.) DH is not, we have had many conversations about this, he doesn't really get it and I have decided that he and I are just going to have to continue to be individuals on this as we work towards a better consensus.

I actually do think we have had good influences on each other over time. My impulse is to say, well, this has to happen, and make it happen. DH would never strap a screaming child in the carseat, if he had to he would take an hour and talk it out and be late for work. He has miles more patience than I do in general and sometimes his tactics work quite well, and I have picked up on some of them to good effect (several of the initial approaches I mentioned in my first post were picked up from DH and have worked at other times). On the other hand he really does have a small % of the time when he spins completely out of control and starts yelling at her, and has also at times swatted her (not hard), which he initially maintained was OK and necessary. (He was hit as a child, I was not.) I never raise my voice - when DD and I get in a struggle it is more as I outlined above, I'm calm myself but if I need to make something happen physically I do it. I have had long conversations with DH around the loss-of-control and he is getting better at that, has not been physical with her in a long time, and certainly has stopped trying to maintain that it is OK to hit her.

So I think we do learn from each other. But he is not going to be consistent with followup in the way that I am, and getting him to stop trying to undermine me when I am being consistent (admittedly with all the shrieking I can see how it is hard to take) is a work in progress.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SweetSilver*
> 
> If we are keeping responses within the philosophy of Gentle Discipline, I would say this doesn't sound all that Gentle to me.


Yes, thank you for this, because this is one of my concerns here. I really do not want to be having to inject so much negative physicality into my relationship with my child. E.g. I feel timeout as a strategy in general is sufficiently gentle for my purposes, but the specifics of implementing it with DD1 are edging out of my comfort zone. Holding the door shut while she screams and wrestling her out to the car are not improving our dynamic. This is why I am trying to figure out if there is a secret to this 'expectations' thing. Sadly I am beginning to suspect there is not.


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## Quinalla (May 23, 2005)

I think presenting something as an expectation can work, so it is worth trying, but yeah it doesn't always work except maybe with very compliant children. So for getting dressed "Time to get dressed!" and handing clothes to your child or helping them to get dressed (depending on age/ability) will work for most kids most of the time, so I think it is worth trying first as it starts the situation off positively, but I agree it doesn't work all the time except maybe with the most naturally compliant children.

Also, it is worth noting that my DD sometimes listens better to DH or I or her teachers at daycare and it has nothing to do with how consistent each of us is in our discipline. It used to drive me batty because I am more consistent than DH, but she would often listen to him immediately anyway and not always with me. Now that isn't always the case, sometimes I think it comes down to she was having an argument/power struggle with one of us, but when that one takes a break and the other parent intervenes, it sort of resets it in her head so she is suddenly willing to comply or at least willing to consider it again.

I don't think there is one thing to do in these situations, I think you need a wide range of tools, try them and if it comes down to it, sometimes you just have to pick them up and go. I try to be very sympathetic (I know it's hard to stop playing, but we have to go now... etc.) and gentle while I'm doing this and try to arrange my time so that I have some built in time to deal with situations, but it doesn't always work out.

Not sure how helpful that is, but it helped me to think about it anyway


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## lmk1 (Sep 21, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mambera*
> 
> This is good advice but I don't see how to implement it for something that is an intermittent rather than a recurrent problem. 90% of the time she does get ready for school within a reasonable amount of time. But then we may have a different power struggle over something else, at another time. And at the time of the power struggle she is often not in a mood to respond to empathy, humor, or inquiry.
> 
> ...


I've been curious about all this myself, having one kid who is going to do the opposite of what I say, and the other who is beginning to work that way. I have friends who insist their kids do what they say, but when I'm around them, I don't see that at all. Maybe some of them are more compliant, but they react in other ways (for example by crying over very silly things that my kid would just shrug off - and I'm not saying that they shouldn't - just saying kids are harder in some ways and easier in other ways). With my 2 year old, he sometimes has episodes of just not being able to be in the car any longer, and I will stop and walk around with him until he's calmed down and we can continue, but other times we really have to get somewhere and so I strap him in screaming and fighting and go. It seems when he's figured out that it's really going to happen, he stops fighting physically, but cries a lot...and I try to distract him other ways in the car when I'm driving. I can't really reason with him - I can say something, but he doesn't really get it, so sometimes, it just has to happen. I do have friends that are very optimistic about their kids' behavior, and I'm more realistic, I think. So sometimes I think when people say "I don't give them a choice" - well, maybe their perception of what's happening is different than what you would observer if you were there. I don't think there's any magic way at all.


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## Angelorum (Aug 5, 2006)

I'm trying to work out how to be gentler with my 3.5 yo around a lot of these same issues. Things were really turbulent for us with the brand new baby, DS1 was unsure where he stood in our newly changed family, and I had a less patience as I adjusted to having two children and healed from pregnancy and birth. Time-outs involved me strapping him into his high chair while he struggled, which is definitely not as gentle as I would like to be  I'm in the middle of the Parent Effectiveness Training book linked above, and it does have some useful ideas.

Acknowledging his feelings and disappointments mid or pre-tantrum works really well to calm him down. "You really wanted to play on the computer more, didn't you? It's sad that it's time for bed, isn't it?" etc. When he hears that I understand what he's trying to communicate, the screaming stops and he says, yeah, and comes in for a hug usually. Saying, "I know" or "I hear you" doesn't seem to work at all, it has to be more specific.

I'm just starting to read the chapters in the book that deal with how to get your kids to listen to what you need, but the general idea seems to be that you describe the unacceptable behavior (without judging it) how you feel about it, and the tangible effect it has e.g. "When you refuse to get dressed I feel frustrated because it makes me and your dad late for work" And then you stop and let them have the opportunity to right the situation. Maybe she'll decide to just get dressed, maybe she'll ask you to just pack clothes in the car for later. It's not likely to create a power struggle because you haven't ordered her to do anything or shamed her for bad behavior, she feels you trust her to find a solution and respect your needs. A lot of the examples given in the book are with older children but it has seemed to help with my 3 yo thus far and I feel like it is helping him learn how his actions affect others a lot better than when I just yell at him to stop doing x or he'll have to go sit in his chair.

HTH


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## babymommy2 (May 14, 2009)

Quote:


> Holding the door shut while she screams and wrestling her out to the car are not improving our dynamic. This is why I am trying to figure out if there is a secret to this 'expectations' thing. Sadly I am beginning to suspect there is not.


I think you are setting up the expectations, it is just a long process, even if you have to wrestle your child into the car. Like I said before I've had to forcibly bend my child to get into the car seat when they were little., but for as long as they have been old enough to put on their own seat belts, I have never once seen them refuse to do it. It is an expectation and it is all they have ever known car=seat belt. It is nice that your husband can be late for work and wait out a car seat tantrum. That never worked for me. 2 of my kids would probably never calm down enough to get in nicely until the next day when they forgot to be mad, nevermind the fact that I just cannot be late for work, or not pick up another child from school or lessons and have them panicking!. There would have to be some major excuse to show up for work late in my line of work and calling in late because I couldn't get my child into the car would not cut it!


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

I've read through some of these responses, and I remembered something I struggled with when my son was young.

Our bookstore had double doors, and my son always wanted to use the right hand door, so he had a door for going in and the other one for going out. Now some of the managers kept both doors unlocked, while a few locked the "out" door. So, when we were leaving, we would discover the problem. He went through a couple of years where that resulted in a major meltdown. I held him and waited, but it was embarrassing when strangers wanted to pay him a quarter to stop crying, or told me my parenting was wrong and he would insist on everything being his way all of his life.

One day, with no change, bribe or threat from me, he decided it no longer mattered which door he went out. Ironically, I asked him about that a couple months ago. He's 17, now, and I asked if he remembered *why* it was so important to him. What he said spoke volumes.

When he was young and had so much to learn and so much that was out of his control, it was *vital* that he could depend on certain things being a certain way. When he was older, and more responsible for himself, and therefore more in control, things like the door no longer mattered, because he could control other things himself!!

Maybe, since this seems to be a control issue, you can talk about it during the weekend, and find out *why* she has a problem on those days. Maybe it's as simple as this -- she depends on her dad taking her to school because she needs to know that she can count on that. Maybe you need to work out a different solution on those days. If he has to go in early, he still gets her ready, just earlier. Then you sit with her on the couch while she dozes until it's time to leave. Just an idea.


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## dovey (May 23, 2005)

In our family, I have a philosophy that helps us avoid power struggles (if I can remember to stick to it).

Never ask the child to do something that you know she won't do. Never ask the child more than one time - make sure that you have her complete attention when you ask.

Then, if you can do this, every task you request is something that gets done. Once the child gets out of the habit of resisting, then she doesn't engage in power struggles. She just realizes that she will do as she is expected. It helps to start with small expectations and then to work up to greater responsibility. Start by asking her to do something that she likes to do, like feeding the dog or spraying the table. Ask the child to do the task every day. Gradually, more and more responsibilities can be added to the list of things she can do.

Now if you already are having power struggles, it helps to think ahead to avoid them. For example, the OP might want to dress the child in a suit that she could sleep in, so she doesn't have to put on a special outfit for school. If you can foresee a power struggle around eating breakfast at the table, don't even go there. Just hand her a bagel in the car.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> ...He's 17, now, and I asked if he remembered *why* it was so important to him. What he said spoke volumes.
> 
> When he was young and had so much to learn and so much that was out of his control, it was *vital* that he could depend on certain things being a certain way. When he was older, and more responsible for himself, and therefore more in control, things like the door no longer mattered, because he could control other things himself!!


This is a wonderful posts. The need for routine and predictability is extremely high in preschoolers.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *mambera*
> 
> By the way the reason she got upset (I think) was because the plan that day was for DH to take her to school and we tried to switch things at the last minute to ensure he would get to his meeting on time. He went in the shower and I was left to take DD1 to school. She actually told me she wanted Daddy to get her ready when I first told her to get dressed; I explained that he was in the shower and I was going to take her to school. It went downhill from there. In hindsight I should have just let DH know that he needed to speed up his shower and take her (which is what ended up happening anyway). Of course at the time it wasn't obvious that the issue was going to blow up into WWIII. There have been other times when she was perfectly unruffled or even pleased by a change in which parent would be taking her to school that day.
> 
> ..... Holding the door shut while she screams and wrestling her out to the car are not improving our dynamic. This is why I am trying to figure out if there is a secret to this 'expectations' thing. Sadly I am beginning to suspect there is not.


I think this post explains a lot more about what happened than your first post did. Your family had a plan she was fine with, and then you changed it at the last minute. Then she freaked out. That was completely age appropriate behavior on her part.

Back to your original question, part of how you get kids to do things by expecting them to is by *expecting the exact same things from them over and over.*

It isn't reasonable to expect a small child to just go with the flow. Some 3 year old are like that, but most aren't. I think a HUGE chunk of successful GD is setting kids up to be well behaved, and routines really helped both my kids. At that age, we had a picture chart for our morning and evening routines.

I am very cut and dry when it comes to teaching my children how to behave (partly because I think that making things sound like a choice when they are not is lying), and I do believe that doing an undesirable task first and a desired task after is a useful tool for pretty much ALL humans, but the core of GD is figuring out a way to live in harmony with our sweet little children, and that is a heck of a lot easier if they know what to expect from us and from their day.

<<It's more of a global question about how to get any needed discipline to be a calmer experience for everyone.>>

My experience both as a parent and as someone who now works with special needs children, is that there isn't some simple thing you can do that works in every situation. It's about trouble shooting and brain storming and trying to figure out what the triggers are and what works best in different situations. There isn't a short cut. Its about reviewing how things went and what you did and how that worked out, and thinking about how you would like to respond the next time something similar happens. It's about being mindful in our parenting, and fully present with our kids. It's about realizing that raising a child is process, not a formula.

<<<<<DH is not, we have had many conversations about this, he doesn't really get it and I have decided that he and I are just going to have to continue to be individuals on this as we work towards a better consensus.

I actually do think we have had good influences on each other over time.>>>

My DH and I are very different people and don't do everything the same with our kids. It was really never a problem. There are certain areas that are my domains (including mornings!) and other things that are his. He is not super consistent, so I've handled the parts of life that needed more consistency. His real strength as a dad over the years has been helping our kids find their inner strength, which is pretty awesome, and something that I really not very good at.


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## sassyfirechick (Jan 21, 2012)

I'm gonna chip in a bit from a behavior perspective.



> Originally Posted by *LiLStar*
> 
> I definitely don't have the innate alpha dominance thing.


I can tell you it's not about alpha or dominance - if anything it's about confidence and remaining cool under pressure. Those are strong words, because really, most people don't want to dominate their kids - they want to coexist peacefully. If you saw me you would NOT think of me as a dominant personality - I've been known to cry at the drop of a hat (although I've tried to work hard on that), I'm intimidated by yelling, and if we're talking physical stature I'm only 5'2" 115lbs - not exactly intimidating. But I work as a dog trainer, I'm good at what I do and people are often surprised at how quickly I "gain control" over the situaton at hand. Patience, confience, and a good sense of humor have served me well so far. In my house, everyone listens to what I ask (within reason),kiddo and animals included, not because I'm domineering, but bc I'm reasonable and fair. I follow through but I don't nag.

Originally Posted by *mambera* 



> As I mentioned I am consistent. (I am well aware of the reinforcing effects of intermittent reward schedules.) DH is not, we have had many conversations about this, he doesn't really get it and I have decided that he and I are just going to have to continue to be individuals on this as we work towards a better consensus.
> 
> So I think we do learn from each other. But he is not going to be consistent with followup in the way that I am, and getting him to stop trying to undermine me when I am being consistent (admittedly with all the shrieking I can see how it is hard to take) is a work in progress.


I'm right there with you on DH being the one who's inconsistent. We were both hit as kids - I do not feel it's appropriate, but he still does (haven't had 'that' convo yet as we have other issues we're dealing with) and so we deal with DD in different ways (no hitting but he does raise his voice). I will say he tends to mimic me after a while seeing as how our LO responds to my methods more favorably . Learning from one another is great especially if you overlap in your shortcomings to complete the greater picture. As far as undermining, I think its safe to say you will each have different relationships with your daughter based on how you interact with her. In our home, I'm the calm reasonable one who is playful but consistent, firm but fair. DH is somewhat detached, and when he pays attention its to give things rather than time (I absolutely loathe the way he was raised as my IL's continue to give quantity over quality time and it just reinforces DH to no end) and at 15mos old DD is catching on. She does what I ask, and fusses less for me than she does for DH bc she knows resistance is futile with mommy ;-)

There is no magic answer, because expectations are something you build over time. Much like you can't 'expect' a 4mo to put away their toys, you can't expect an older child to never have a meltdown when asked to do something. Life revolves around testing - it's what we're pre-programmed to do. You test until you get a response, that response determines the course you take - kind of like those mystery books that let you choose the ending! Kids test. In your case it's not so frequent which is great - it means you really are on your way to achieving your 'expectations.' You should be proud! Your persistance and consistency will take you the rest of the way and really the impact of yor DH being inconsistent won't be that bad. On those rough days, take a deep breath, remain calm, ignore your kiddo's tantrums, and when she sees how calm you are and that her tantrums get her nowhere it will start to sinnk in that 1) tantrums don't work and 2) "wow, mom is really calm and nothing gets to her - I want to be like that". You're setting a good example!



> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> When he was young and had so much to learn and so much that was out of his control, it was *vital* that he could depend on certain things being a certain way. When he was older, and more responsible for himself, and therefore more in control, things like the door no longer mattered, because he could control other things himself!!


I can already see this with my 15mo. She has certain expectations for how the day should proceed and while she can be adaptable to change, sometimes she just wants her reliable routine. Her main affliction is helping to feed the cats. She's developed an entire behavior sequence around the ritual. I say it's time to feed the kitties, she runs to their "spot" and sits (bc I tell her to get down low to drop the food so this is a recent addition to the routine). She asks for each cat's serving by name - cupid and chuck - then puts the food away. If I was to mention feeding the cats as an out loud reminder to myself and didn't actually start the routine, my DD gets upset and starts to yell out "kitties! EAT! kitties!". So I'm careful with what I say around her so as not to put ideas into her head unless I'm ready to implement them!


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## Jennyfur (Jan 30, 2007)

My kids are 26, 18, 18 and 14, and I definitely always had the expectation that my kids would comply with my (reasonable) requirements. It's been interesting reading this thread. I've often wondered why I was able to move things along. At times it felt that it worked because it had to. That sounds ridiculous, but for instance, when you're wrangling young twins you sometimes don't have the ability to be as patient as you might be with a singleton--and that actually works in your favor IMO.

I believe I've generally been very kind and patient, but I also have always clearly expressed the reality that they had to follow my rules in the majority of instances. I was open to discussion, but not at the moment of dissension for the most part. I'm couching my comments here because I was never completely rigid.

When you have family with multiple kids, I think you focus more on logistics, and IME the kids follow along. I can say I didn't employ gentle discipline at all times to the degree often advocated in this forum, but I never raised a hand to any of my children and I'm not a yeller. I was extremely consistent and did have consequences for misbehavior that I employed without wavering.

When it comes right down to it, there probably is some innate ability some people have to command attention. I know my husband was never as skilled at managing the kids when they were little, and that might have a lot to do with how incredibly sweet and sensitive he is. I was never afraid of having one of my kids be upset or angry with me, and I felt very responsible for creating a harmonious home without chaos.

Which is all a long way of saying that it's definitely a fascinating topic!


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Dr. Gary Landreth teaches "choices" as a form of discipline. He is a little more... stern or something... than I would be, but his overall theory is useful. I don't know how well I can communicate his technique since I've modified it but his basic premise is that when you need your child to do something, you give 2 age-appropriate choices that are equally acceptable. Basically you are restating rules/options/consequences in the form of a choice. The word "choice" is especially important. Example:

If you need your child to get dressed, you could say, "Every morning we need to get dressed for preschool. From now on, when you choose to stay in your pj's after I've asked you to get dressed, you choose to have me dress you." Then you give her a reasonable amount of time to get dressed (5mins maybe?) and if she isn't dressed you come back & say, "I see you chose to stay in your pj's, so you chose to have me dress you." And then get her dressed (despite any kicking & screaming) and get her out the door. Supposedly you only have to implement the "consequence" part of the choice a couple of times before they get it. Also, because you've stated it as a choice, it gives them the power.

His biggest example is Oreo cookies. So if your child comes out of the kitchen with a whole package of Oreos, you'd say, "You may chose to have one cookie, or you may choose to have two. Which do you choose?" Both choices are equally acceptable but make it clear that those are the 2 options. You do have to be firm & consistent about following through on the choices.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

In conversations like this I feel like my family should be on display. I am consistent, I follow through, I get things done if they need to be done, I explain, I expect, I discuss, I am firm and gentle (to a point, as I am human) and yet...at 9 and 6-1/2, my children still try to loophole their way out of things a good 50% of the time, and it is emotionally exhausting. Hope springs eternal with these two, and if there's some smidgen vagueness in an expectation that I didn't specifically lay out to either of them, they'll use that smidgen. Their persistence is just....draining. I stand firm, but holy hell it makes me weary. Their intensity and energy are astounding.


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## elus0814 (Sep 21, 2009)

I agree with the post that said that people with multiple children have to focus more on logistics. In my family there are too many people to care for to stop everything to have a discussion or to stand in one spot and pretend to be bored. There also isn't time to hold a child so they stay in a time out spot (bedrooms are play areas too because of lack of space so being sent to their room is not a time out). I also can't simply allow one of the kids to cry and carry on, it either wakes up or upsets the younger ones. It would be great if these things could always consistently happen but it's not possible when so much time must be spent on basics like cooking, laundry, etc.

Similarly, not everyone has time or ability to make everyday a comfortable routine for each child so that child will be set up for an easy time following the rules and behaving well. For example, one of my kids might thrive on a routine that includes waking up early, taking long afternoon naps, and being allowed lots of quiet time for creative play. Another might not do well with that and instead thrives on a routine where they stay up very late, have outings every afternoon, and are never expected to play quietly. What happens then? Probably a compromise. That's ok but it doesn't set each child up to be able to behave the way they are expected to.

A question on the cookies example -

What happens when you see your child with a package of cookies and say 'you can choose to have one or you can choose to have two' then your child 'chooses' to have five? It's easy to say a child has two choices but in reality they actually have many, many choices. They can sit in the kitchen and eat as many as they can before anyone notices. They can try to sneak the package to their room to save them for themselves for later. They can get annoyed over only being allowed to have one or two and throw them on the floor then refuse to clean the mess up. They can stand there and scream, making life stressful and uncomfortable for everyone else. It seems to me that the question in the original post is not so much 'what do you say to your child' but 'how do you get your child to actually do what you say and/or what happens if and when they don't'.

One more question -

If you tell your child they have 'made a choice' to not get dressed and you will then do it for them what happens when you are not physically able to do it? I know I wouldn't be able to hold down and dress a four year old without risking injury. I'd rather take a child out in their pajamas to avoid being kicked in the face and ending up at the hospital with no one to watch the kids but that doesn't really solve the problem of a child not getting dressed (some kids just aren't embarrassed when going out in pajamas or they might think it's fun to do so).

Yet another question -

What happens when a safety issue comes up? A child who keep taking unbuckling their car seat is putting themselves in danger. It isn't always possible (or safe) to pull the car over repeatedly or to sit on the side of the road. A child in a bad mood might not want to listen to how important it is to keep their seat buckled and how happy it will make their parents.


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## lmk1 (Sep 21, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *elus0814*
> 
> I agree with the post that said that people with multiple children have to focus more on logistics. In my family there are too many people to care for to stop everything to have a discussion or to stand in one spot and pretend to be bored. There also isn't time to hold a child so they stay in a time out spot (bedrooms are play areas too because of lack of space so being sent to their room is not a time out). I also can't simply allow one of the kids to cry and carry on, it either wakes up or upsets the younger ones. It would be great if these things could always consistently happen but it's not possible when so much time must be spent on basics like cooking, laundry, etc.
> 
> ...


You've pretty much summarized everything in our house.  I notice the choices I give my kids sometimes result in "none of the above". And honestly, for a kid that's over 4 or 5, that's a very good thing to understand. Because they do grow up to be adults and they do need to understand that sometimes the best choice (for them, not for others necessarily) is none of the above. I remember participating in a psychology experiment in college where I was presented with 4 options, and really none of them was right. I knew that I was "supposed" to pick one, so I did. Turned out the experiment was to see if the subject would just pick one he/she knew was wrong or insist that the right answer wasn't one of the 4. I want to raise a kid that understands that there are always other choices (and their consequences) even if it's often very inconvenient for me. Although I do sometimes act the way I don't like, as in threatening to throw away a toy if it's not played with appropriately or picked up...and I hate threatening, but it does work, as I've had to carry through and my older son well understands that. My younger one though is too young to truly understand. He's figured out how to stick his arms through the top of his seatbelt, so he's only fastened at the bottom...not really safe. Yes, when we're driving somewhere we really have to be, I can't just tell him he has no choice and pull over and wait.


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *The4OfUs*
> 
> In conversations like this I feel like my family should be on display. I am consistent, I follow through, I get things done if they need to be done, I explain, I expect, I discuss, I am firm and gentle (to a point, as I am human) and yet...at 9 and 6-1/2, my children still try to loophole their way out of things a good 50% of the time, and it is emotionally exhausting. Hope springs eternal with these two, and if there's some smidgen vagueness in an expectation that I didn't specifically lay out to either of them, they'll use that smidgen. Their persistence is just....draining. I stand firm, but holy hell it makes me weary. Their intensity and energy are astounding.


Oh, loopholes! My 2.5yo is always looking for them as well.

There were a couple of cane toads squashed on our street a while ago. LO was fascinated by them

LO: Can I touch them?
Me: No Honey, they're very dirty. Just look at them.
LO: [pause, cogs turning] Caaaan I... jump over them?


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## starling&diesel (Nov 24, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *salr*
> 
> Seriously.
> 
> ...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dovey*
> 
> In our family, I have a philosophy that helps us avoid power struggles (if I can remember to stick to it).
> 
> Never ask the child to do something that you know she won't do. Never ask the child more than one time - make sure that you have her complete attention when you ask.


When I was first parenting a toddler, I applied my years of dog training (stay with me, here) to the experience.

*Never ask them to do something you know they won't do, always use gentle touch, positive reinforcement and no treats or rewards.*

This works for kids too. As in, only require things of them that you know that they're capable and willing to do. That way you're always celebrating success! People always thought that my dog was the most well-behaved dog at the dog park, because she always came when called. The secret was that I only *called* for her when she was already enroute and there were no distractions between her and I (ie. squirrels, etc). With children, again, I try to ask only when I know there will be compliance. This is good for small children, so they get used to complying willingly and then it can be phased out with older kids, who have more nuanced reactions and opinions.

Now at the playground, people think I have the most well-behaved children because they don't fight me when it's time to leave and on the rare occasion that I ask them to do something, they do it. But again, the secret is that I've set up the expectation of cooperation over the years (with my older one) and am doing it again with my younger one. How does this work, when it comes down to nuts and bolts?

ie. We're leaving in ten minutes, so finish up what you're doing and say goodbye to your friends.

We're leaving in five minutes.

We're leaving in two minutes.

It's time to go.

Older child comes willingly (now). The younger one is lifted out of the sandbox/play area/wherever and secured into the carrier.

Off we go. Every time. No exceptions. So there is an expectation that we're going, period. There's never been a time that we didn't go, so it's like the waiting for the bus idea, or as predictable as bedtime, say.

This works for leaving the house too. "Jackets and boots on, we're leaving in ten minutes." Or with age-appropriate chores. "Clean up your blocks and then choose two books for bedtime." And so on.

This also works for throwing sand, hitting, etc. I see the hurtful action, and say, "Gentle touch, Hands are not for hitting." or "Sand stays on the ground, no throwing sand." They get a second chance to make the right choice, and if they do it again a third time, we leave. So no punishment or time out, but no more enjoying the company of their friends or hanging out in the playground. When they're still young, I remove them, and by the time they're old enough (time will tell if this pans out with her brother) they come, knowing that there is no other option.

Also helpful in our family:

Never use "Okay" ...

I never say "Okay," as in "Time to get ready to go, okay?" or "Time to put on your pajamas, okay?" It invites negotiation where there is none. John Holt's writing taught me that one, and it's been immensely helpful. My older child knows that there is room for discussion if I use "okay" and no room for discussion when I don't.

Barbara Colorosso is big on that too. "We will go to the park after you've cleaned your room." Protest ensues, parent calmly restates: "We will go to the park after you've cleaned your room." More gnashing of teeth, flinging self to the ground, pounding fists. Parent calmly restates: "We will go to the park after you've cleaned your room." And so on. Key being, don't engage in the drama, and don't invite negotiation by saying, "We'll go to the park after you've cleaned your room, okay?"

Give yourself double the time you think you'll need.

Transitions with children are often difficult. They're busy doing their 'work' (play) and we want them to stop because of something on our agenda.

I find my patience is thinnest when time is of the essence, so I try never to let it be. We have very few obligations, but we do have a class that starts across the city at 0900 on Monday mornings. I let them sleep in clothes that are comfy and presentable, so that I don't have to get them dressed. I make breakfast ahead of time, and we leave the house at 0820, on the dot. We get up at 0700. That's a LOT of time.

Pick your hills

I don't like the phrase "Choose your battles," but I get it. Like choosing the proverbial "hill to die on," and so on.

I don't care what my kids wear. I don't care if they have a jacket on in the cold. I don't care if they get dirty. I don't care if they don't want to learn to climb the jungle gym. I don't care if they want to ride their bike or walk. I don't care if they want to fill their backpack with blocks and carry it around for the day. I don't care if they want their sandwich cut in strips or squares.

I do care about a few choice things; they are not permitted to do anything harmful to themselves or others, or anything that is simply unkind.

That's a lot of blathering on to essential say that I think consistency is the key here. That's how expectations become intrinsic and unfaltering. If children know what to expect, it's easier to let it happen without protest.


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## lilitchka (Jan 19, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *starling&diesel*
> 
> When I was first parenting a toddler, I applied my years of dog training (stay with me, here) to the experience.
> 
> ...


thank you! I like this post.

I think I have been applying a lot of what you said intuitively, without realizing.

It all makes sense. like the okay part...I use it often with adults, but never with DS, it would be strange and too much ''pressure'' on him I think.

If we ask them: clean your room and then we will go to the park, okay?

then it's too much responsibility on them also. They feel like first:

1) they have to choose if they want to clean the room, if they want to go to the park, if going to the park is worth cleaning the room for.

2) they feel some stress from the confusion: does mom want to go to the park or no? or she wants me stop doing what I an doing? or I am supposed to clean the room?

It is much less stressful for them if mom just says: ''clean the room and then we will go to the park''

she is just informing them what's going to happen (because it implies that it will happen).

and for the pseudo choices I wanted to give my DS so he feels he has some control over things is useless.

it only helps by distracting from the real issue (which is not bad). but he doesn't get the choice thing.

I realized that when I listen to the ''choices'' he likes to offer me. He would pick 4 or 5 exactly identical things (ex: cookies, postal stamps...)and ask me which one I want!

there is basically no choice! they are all the same.

so that what it means to him: just ''choosing'' between identical things!


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *elus0814*
> 
> Similarly, not everyone has time or ability to make everyday a comfortable routine for each child so that child will be set up for an easy time following the rules and behaving well.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure how to deal with the seat belt issue. That's one that never came up for us. My kids really were never risking anything more than minor cuts and bruises, and I figure those are learning experiences. I do draw the line at anything that could cause serious injury. If it could land them at the ER or worse, then I wouldn't allow it. But I don't know specifically how to deal with the seat belt issue.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *starling&diesel*
> 
> When they're still young, I remove them, and by the time they're old enough (time will tell if this pans out with her brother) they come, knowing that there is no other option.
> 
> ...


Yes to both of these. In the toddler/preschool years, just making things happen laid the ground work for obedience as they got older and bigger.

There are very few things that I really care about. My kids have always had tons and tons of freedom. They've gone out to eat in dress up clothes (as in princess dress, wellington boots, umbrella with frogs on it, and baseball cap, because you can never have too many accessories). They have free range of the food in our house (which is all stuff that I'm fine with them eating.

The things that are a big deal to me are nonnegotiable, and they know it. Keeping the list very short helps a lot. For me, part of successful GD was keeping the list short. For a while, it seemed that our only rules were:

1. Teeth must be properly brushed at bedtime.

2. Always wear a seat belt.

3, Don't make your sister cry. Although this negatively stated, it worked for them.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> 3, Don't make your sister cry. Although this negatively stated, it worked for them.


Sorry if this is OT a bit, but this is a big deal for me. Sometimes, wording things with a negative actually provides more freedom than wording it in the positive. Example: "Walk on the sidewalk", while informative, is more restrictive than stating "Don't walk in the street." My point is that sticking with positively worded statements isn't necessarily better.


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## lilitchka (Jan 19, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SweetSilver*
> 
> Sorry if this is OT a bit, but this is a big deal for me. Sometimes, wording things with a negative actually provides more freedom than wording it in the positive. Example: "Walk on the sidewalk", while informative, is more restrictive than stating "Don't walk in the street." My point is that sticking with positively worded statements isn't necessarily better.


maybe it depends on the age.

because too much choice for a 2 or 3 y.e. can create anxiety.

telling them: don<t walk on the street means they have to figure out themselves where they can walk.

I find restricting helps at that age. especially when I realize I said negative stuff non stop for 1 hour.

But for an older child, (that know that we don<t pull other peoples hair, eat stuff from the garbage and run to the traffic) negatively worded statements provide more choice and can help with the frustration.


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## LitMom (Mar 6, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SweetSilver*
> 
> If we are keeping responses within the philosophy of Gentle Discipline, I would say this doesn't sound all that Gentle to me.


Well, perhaps the shortest answer to the OPs question, "how do you expect kids to do something or 'not give them a choice'?" may be that you don't practice particularly gentle discipline. I don't tend to post here, and frankly that's why. I don't use physical discipline, but I don't claim to be all gentle either.

Also, the "break her of something" refers to breaking a habit. Just like an adult habit like eating sweets after the kids are in bed or smoking or whatever. Thowing a fit about clothes every or most days can become a habit.


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## Friday13th (Jun 13, 2006)

For me, being goofy, offering a variety of choices, etc are for non-negotiable things. If we HAVE to be dressed and in the car at a certain time (and there are days we don't) they are told of that ahead of time, given a warning to wrap up what they're doing and then the choice is: put on your own clothes or I will help you put them on. I find the more I try to coax them something that isn't actually negotiable the more upset they get. So if I were to say, they don't havea choice in the matter, that's what I would mean. There are things we all have to do that we don't really have a choice about. They get a lot of other choices and I aim to be calm and gentle but in some situations, it just has to happen.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Jumping in after reading the first page...(and will go back and read the others).

Not all parents who talk about expectations are talking about behavior that they have not yet had to face or are insensitive to how challenging things can get. I know I've been in both places -- those times where things are just not going well and there seems like no truly gentle solution to a problem AND where simply expecting cooperation seems to work like magic.

I do agree that for some "expectations" translates to not meeting expectations = punishment. This is not what I mean...

It's almost like treating children like an adult in the way that you tend to expect cooperation from an adult. You don't expect totally unreasonable uncooperative behavior from your adult relationships (we should hope). You expect your DP to get dressed quickly if you're running late, for example. This WORKS with children. Far more often than one may first think. It doesn't work all the time but it really does work some of the time. I suppose it's about that "living up to our expectations".

So when *I* say that "having positive expectations" can be a great tool/habit I don't mean that you punish if kids don't comply and I don't mean that this works all the time or that I can't sympathize with kids acting totally unreasonably. It's just a tool that can be used and it's the nicest one when it works, imo.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I'm going through and quoting some of things that would have worked well for my personalty and that of my older child (I don't have power struggles yet with the little one) -- and things that maybe the OP hasn't thought of (because it does sound to me like the OP is an effective GD mama)...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dovey*
> 
> In our family, I have a philosophy that helps us avoid power struggles (if I can remember to stick to it).
> 
> Never ask the child to do something that you know she won't do. Never ask the child more than one time - make sure that you have her complete attention when you ask.


I love this! I was never a fan of "playful parenting" or even much of a fan of "choices" and other distractions. I think it doesn't fit well with my personality and I also kind of thought it was avoiding emotions in a weird way. No dig on those for whom all of this resonates...I do all kinds of things that wouldn't fit with other personalities.

I like just stating things as they are, with positive expectations. "Time to get dressed, I'm running late..." The habit of not asking questions you already know the answer to comes in handy down the road for things like fibbing, chores and etc. If it isn't an option, don't phrase it as such and etc.



> Quote:
> 
> 
> > Quote:
> ...












I also agree with LOTM and SD's ideas about pick your battles as generally good advice for parents. OP, it sounds to me like you probably already do that but it's a good reminder for all of us.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Back to the expectations thing...

I think I may have first thought of it framed in the Continuum Concept theory, which I have almost totally forgotten. But one of the best ways to describe it have to do with going places with a toddler. When it's safe to do so, I walk with my toddler with the full expectation that she is coming with me. When it's time to go, I tell her we're leaving and I walk away at a normal pace. I try fully expect that she's coming and don't look back for a bit. When it's time to look back I try as if I am just looking back to interact with her (not to check if she's coming). If I can do this *for real* it just works. It has worked with both of my kids.

Now I have had two fairly cooperative kids and neither is all that spirited so I don't mean to be insensitive about that but I do encourage you to try this if nothing else because it's a somewhat fascinating thing (if) when it starts to "work". If you get to a genuine place where you are expecting cooperation it's also the least coercive forms of discipline that I've encountered.


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## elus0814 (Sep 21, 2009)

> Originally Posted by *elus0814*
> 
> Similarly, not everyone has time or ability to make everyday a comfortable routine for each child so that child will be set up for an easy time following the rules and behaving well.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure how to deal with the seat belt issue. That's one that never came up for us. My kids really were never risking anything more than minor cuts and bruises, and I figure those are learning experiences. I do draw the line at anything that could cause serious injury. If it could land them at the ER or worse, then I wouldn't allow it. But I don't know specifically how to deal with the seat belt issue.

"Then I wouldn't allow it" is, at least I think, exactly the kind of phrase people are confused about. How do you not allow it? If what is 'not allowed' is done anyway what happens then? It's not always as easy as saying something is not allowed. A child who keep unbuckling their car seat or runs out into a parking lot has probably never been told they are allowed to do so and has likely been told it is not allowed.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Elus,

I feel like I can recognize some of your thought process -- I remember a time of feeling doubtful about how this whole discipline thing would work. I'm sure I'll find myself there again as my young one enters the terrible 3/4 age that I disliked the first time around and I'm SURE I'll have doubts when my 11 year old enters the teen years. How's that for positive expectations?









But, one other thing that has served me really, really well over the 11 years of discipline is to take each problem by itself. Even ones that feel like they're a problem because they're a pattern. Take each individual challenge and address it by itself. It's SO much easier to fix one issue than it is to fix a pattern of behavior. It's easier for you as the parent but, more importantly, it's easier for your child to correct an individual incident.


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## littlegreenlady (Nov 24, 2009)

I have been surprised to find that sometimes wording a request differently can make all the difference. My son is 3 and though I work at home and we don't often have somewhere we "have" to be he still gives me plenty to work with. I want to second the recommendation of the book -How to talk so your children will listen and Listen so your children will talk- It was easy to read and because of the way it is written I was easily able to remember the different options for approaching a problem. I have recently started reading -nonviolent communication....- and again was surprised to see that after just a few pages I was able to alter my communication in a way that helped my 3 year old understand and go along with my request or refusal to give him something that I felt was inappropriate at the time.

I have read and been told soooo many times to not let the other persons anger, sadness etc affect the way I feel especially in these situations. I never got that thinking, well off course it affects me! But I think after hearing it so many times it's starting to sink in. Someone mentioned children having a radar and I find this to be so true. If I am able to let go of my attachment to the outcome of the situation emotionally then I find my son tends to react with less strength and/or gets over it with more ease (and at times a lot faster). He is three so he still screams and cries and gets very angry, I try to be there with him while he does this without trying to distract him, make it better, or tell him he is wrong. i may say something along the lines of "I hear/see that you are -------- (angry, sad, frustrated etc)" and give him the I love you no matter what vibe. He eventually calms down and moves on.


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## starling&diesel (Nov 24, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
> 
> Back to the expectations thing...
> 
> ...


Yes! The Continuum Concept is exactly what I was thinking about when I wrote my first post in this thread, but I thought it might be a bit much to get into. It's hard to summarize it in a nutshell, and the author's outdated hyperbolic language is a bit much at times, but the CC is absolutely the root of my free range parenting to date. It's worked well for us: expecting and assuming and reacting as if your child is a respected and vital member of the village and as such of course will exercise his or her full potential, including cooperation and work and merrymaking too.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Elus, I feel like you are dragging in a lot of stuff that isn't related to the thread, and arguing with everything. My main point for this thread is this:

For a basic task that a young child needs to do every day,

such as getting dressed, establishing a simple routine

with a desirable activity at the end

which the parent follows religiously

will ease the process of getting this task accomplished.

I'm only going to respond to your comments that relate directly toward this topic.

t. Part of the problem is that I'm not always available for immediate rewards. I can tell the kids that I will read to them as soon as they do everything on their chart but what about when something else needs immediate attention?

The desired activity at the end can be ANYTHING that is motivating to your child and that you are fine with. I gave the example of reading together for 5 minutes to break away from the limited thinking that rewards need to be stickers/candy/screen time. But it be anything, even something that requires next to nothing from you, as long as it is motivating to your child. However, any parent who routinely spends more than 5 minutes a day joking/arguing/wrestling with their child to get dressed DOES have 5 minutes to spend with their child, if only they changed some the negative time they are spending to positive time.

Doing things the same way over and over is a great goal but isn't always possible. That family might not be able to change their schedules so the child can always have the same morning routine. They might not be able to avoid last minute changes.

Although crises do happen, and routines can fall apart during illness, a move, a holiday, nearly all children do better with a routine and the greater the degree we can make that happen, that easier for everyone. I'm advocating making it a priority, setting the schedule around what you decide is the routine that will general be possible. For me when my kids were small, the important thing was doing everything in the same order, not at what time the routine happened. Part of this is about planning and being preemptive, moving from living from crises to crises to creating a flow.

To me a parent changing lots of things to accommodate what schedule makes it easiest for their child to behave is a bit like changing the rules so the child doesn't have to follow them. To use your example, what if a higher speed limit makes it easier for you to comply with the law? Should it be changed so you can do what you want rather than have to follow the rules? If the sped limit was changed to be 50mph faster than it is now could the government then claim people are following the speed limit 99% of the time instead of the current 50% (or whatever number)? Sure, but they would just be manipulating things to get it to appear how they want it to look. The point is that everyone would be following the rules if they would just make the rules easier to follow but that's not always in the best interest of everyone.

I disagree with your analogy. Refusing to create routine for your family that your children can count on is like changing all the traffic laws every day and expecting the drivers to just flow with it. Imagine how frustrating it would be if every time you got in your car, you had to figure out whether to drive on the right or the left, whether or not you had the right away at intersections, the speed limits changed and were not posted, and you were randomly yelled at for not knowing that you were supposed to be doing. That is what life is like for a small child whose parent constantly changes how things happen in their family. They have no idea what is about to happen or what they are supposed to do, and they get really, really frustrated.

In my family we've had many, many charts and they don't work for us. I think they're a great idea but it's just not something that has made a difference, no matter how much time or how many days are spent on it.

It's obvious from you post that you don't understand how to create a routine, or even what it should be based on. This isn't about centering on your kids desires, but teaching your children how to get the things done that YOU need them to do. It's not being child centered, it's teaching children to be part of a group. I think the problem with routines in you family lies in you execution of them, not whether or not they would be helpful to your children.


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## elus0814 (Sep 21, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> Elus, I feel like you are dragging in a lot of stuff that isn't related to the thread, and arguing with everything. My main point for this thread is this:
> 
> ...


It sounds like you've dealt with one type of family, one where routines/charts/etc. work well. We've spent endless hours keeping charts and routines going. It's just not for us. That's ok, everyone isn't the same and the same things don'e always work for each family. I'm not putting down what you are doing with your family, just explaining why it hasn't worked with my own. I'm here to get more ideas, something besides 'if you just tried harder then your family will be like mine and routines will work for you'. We've tried harder and then tried some more. Time for a new plan.


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## starling&diesel (Nov 24, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> Although crises do happen, and routines can fall apart during illness, a move, a holiday, nearly all children do better with a routine and the greater the degree we can make that happen, that easier for everyone. I'm advocating making it a priority, setting the schedule around what you decide is the routine that will general be possible. For me when my kids were small, the important thing was doing everything in the same order, not at what time the routine happened. Part of this is about planning and being preemptive, moving from living from crises to crises to creating a flow.


Well put, Linda. I find that the more stable the rhythm of our home is, the better equipped my children are to roll with last minute changes and impromptu needs that arise. I think they take comfort in knowing that we can deviate from our rhythm, but then we'll get back to it as soon as we can.

We travel a lot, and this seems to work on the road too. No matter where we are, breakfast comes before an outing, nap comes after lunch, there will be stories at bedtime, etc. If your routine is low key, then it's not a big deal to let it shift as needs demand.

No charts.

No schedules.

No rewards.

No promises that can't be kept.

As for rewards, we don't use them. They just seem to up the ante. I need my kids to feel an intrinsic responsibility to be a capable and contributing member of the family, as age and development allow. Might not happen all the time, but that's what we're aiming for.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

My oldest was the only one that ever fought us about getting dressed. That is because we used to let her hang out in the jammies or with just a diaper or whatever. After a couple episodes of fighting to get her dressed so we could go someplace, I stopped doing that. With all my other kids, we just made it part of our routine that we get dressed first thing in the morning, always, every single day, even weekends, snow days, etc, That way, we were always ready, (with the exception of putting shoes/coats on) when it was time to go. I find that if you just always, always, always do something and are super consistent, they tend not to fight it really. At least that has been my experience. Granted, it means no lounging around in our pajamas all day, but I don't like doing that really anyway. At least, this is what works for us, when it comes to getting dressed. I think when people say that htey just "expect" something to happen, that consistency is a big part of that.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *elus0814*
> We've spent endless hours keeping charts and routines going. It's just not for us.


We do have some sort of routine now because my oldest is in school & has activities, my DH works on a schedule and I to to school myself - it's kind of hard NOT to have a routine when you have 3/4 fairly active people in a family. BUT, I am not inclined towards routines at all. When my first was young she slept in the sling, nursed on demand (like 50x/day!) and we traveled the world. It was pretty awesome and she was a sweet, dreamy baby in many ways. Lots of people marveled at how I could get her to sleep anywhere and stuff like that. So, like with routines, other ways of doing things have advantages too.

Like you said, you are finding what works for you. Look at what feels authentic. Consider what you are able to do. Think of what would be a good fit for your kids.

When things get really frustrating to me, we do a "back to basics" regime where we eat well, sleep well, mellow out, limit bad habits and etc. It's a way to reconnect and focus on what's important. Following that, is a good time to try new things, IME.

I currently have a "Family Responsibility Chart" on my fridge. It's the most embarrassing thing to me. I personally dislike "organization centers" from an aesthetic perspective. The just bug me *for myself* (I think they're kind of cool for other people). But, that's where we are right now. We've got 4 people with different needs and we needed something to keep us accountable. Honestly, it's not working all that well. We go back to our natures. But it helps a little.

My point - we all try things on and figure stuff out. And there's a sweet spot between being authentic and being open to new ideas. Sounds like you just need a new idea!


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

My second kid is really easy and it's no problem getting her to do anything. But the first was a challenge. I would tell her to get dressed, then tell her to get dressed again, then just get her dressed, even if she fussed. I didn't get upset but I'd just get her dressed. Like, "Oh, I see you aren't dressed yet. OK, let's get your shirt on." And I'd just do it.

The "waiting for the bus" thing works frequently but not always for me. But the whole How To Talk thing has a group of things you can do, one after hte other when one doens't work, and by the time you get to waiting for the bus, you've done a few other thigns often, and I think that helps. Like you describe. "You aren't dressed yet." You say, "When we have to go out but you don't get dressed when you need to, it makes me worry we'll be late." You say, "Your clothes!" Then you wait for the bus. I have always found that works pretty well.

Sometimes I'll repeat it, to the point of being silly. "Clothes clothes clothes clothes clothes clothes clothes clothes clothes clothes." Sometiems I sing it. The playful parenting stuff can work. Then she'll get laughing and do it.

I guess I have to read her mood and do what feels like it'll work that time. I don't always guess right and we muddle through some of the time.

We have general flexible routines but we aren't rigid. When we have trouble getting a bunch of things done on time, I've had her make a list and put it up, and then I'll say, "check your list" every so often to remind her to check it. Since she makes the lists, she doesn't mind following them.

We're doing pretty well now at 11. It was much harder between 6 and 8. I just kept on expecting it and kept on expecting it and eventually she got used to doing it. That doesn't mean it always worked, but the longer I kept expecting her to do it and kept after her to do it, the more she got used to doing it and the less of a struggle it was.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SweetSilver*
> 
> Sorry if this is OT a bit, but this is a big deal for me. Sometimes, wording things with a negative actually provides more freedom than wording it in the positive. Example: "Walk on the sidewalk", while informative, is more restrictive than stating "Don't walk in the street." My point is that sticking with positively worded statements isn't necessarily better.


The younger the child, the less likely the child listens well enough to hear the 'not' . And the negative leaves walking through a neighbor's flower bed as an option. I'd stick with the positive, unless I couldn't think of one.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

Unless I'm confused, we are talking about something that occurs too rarely to have a routine. Unless you practice one on the weekends.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I just last night, after years of putting it off, read the How To Talk book, and while I already do many of the positive things mentioned, I also unfortunately have flipped into a few of the negative things too...

So, today I tried the "I see xxxxx" instead of calling a kid to take care if something they forgot. It felt kind if silly at first, like I was playing I spy, but I'll be damned if it didn't work almost every time, with no whining or complaining from them!! Two times they were like "and?" or "ok" and then is say, "please take care of the xxx" and they did it. I'm still not sure how its going to keep them from running everywhere and fighting, but......baby steps, and so far I'm pleased with what I've read.


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## littlegreenlady (Nov 24, 2009)

The4OfUs that was my experience with the book as well, so I just kept reading. I made a little cheat sheet on an index card and put it on my fridge for those moments when I can't think straight  They wrote another book that specifically deals with siblings that may help you with the fighting, I just started reading it because I'm pregnant with my second child and someone said it helped her even in pregnancy. It's called Siblings without rivalry.

I got this email today and it describes what I was trying to say in a previous post more clearly. The link has the same subject followed by comments and some examples of how this may work in an everyday situation.

http://www.enjoyparenting.com/daily-groove/vibe

*THE DAILY GROOVE*
by Scott Noelle

*Kids Hear Your Vibe, 
Not Your Words*

The younger your child, the more his or her interpretation of your words is based on the emotional energy they carry -- your "vibe" -- not the words themselves.

So if your child doesn't listen to your reasonable requests, try this: Listen to yourself as if you didn't know the language and couldn't understand the words; all you have to go by is the tone, the body language, the vibe.

Is it joyful, or heavy? Do you sound eager, or burdened? Does it feel confident, or ambivalent? Is your life a groove, or a grind?

If your vibe is heavy, your joy-oriented child will naturally (and wisely!) tune you out.

Try being silent until you feel centered, connected, and in the Flow. When you speak from that place, you'll emanate an attractive vibe and your child will *want* to align with you.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

Don't we all respond to the vibe? I was just talking with my son about this last night. He said something his father might say, but my reaction was completely different, because the *tone* and body language conveyed an "oops" message rather than a "it's your fault" message. Same words, though!


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

I haven't posted in ages, and now I'm doing two in a row about The Explosive Child--but it's a book I'd recommend to you.

The idea is to slow down, reconnect, and get her to talk to you about whatever the issues is. She won't put her clothes on, you spiral into tantrum and defiance, the whole morning goes to garbage...sometimes if you can remove the powerstruggle, you can get it done. Sometimes the powerstruggles become the go to reaction for kids.

If you've been doing timeouts for over a year, and you have to hold the door closed (I've been there, too!) it won't hurt to try something different.

My goal was to teach my child to behave correctly, and deal with their big feelings--not to dominate her. Now she is 8, and I will say, it worked.

Lastly, if your husband gets her ready for school 90% of the time, it's probably tough for you to step in. I know my DD was a little creature of habit! Not sure if following his routine or having the three of you together create a poster board with the morning routine would help.

Also, since she is 4 and a big girl, I might have a family meeting with Dad and talk about cooperation. A family needs cooperation! Everyone needs to cooperate. You do things for Dad, he does things for you...a family works together. And then when you catch her cooperating, give her props for it.


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## luckiest (Apr 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mambera*
> 
> By the way the reason she got upset (I think) was because the plan that day was for DH to take her to school and we tried to switch things at the last minute to ensure he would get to his meeting on time. He went in the shower and I was left to take DD1 to school. She actually told me she wanted Daddy to get her ready when I first told her to get dressed; I explained that he was in the shower and I was going to take her to school. It went downhill from there. In hindsight I should have just let DH know that he needed to speed up his shower and take her (which is what ended up happening anyway). Of course at the time it wasn't obvious that the issue was going to blow up into WWIII. There have been other times when she was perfectly unruffled or even pleased by a change in which parent would be taking her to school that day.


In my experience with my younger child (2.5), any kind of big upset or major tantrum that is out of the realm of normal (like things that are usually routine becoming battle grounds, like putting on clothes or getting in the car seat or whatever) is always, ALWAYS preceded by some event that made him feel disempowered or betrayed or unheard.

An example - the other day as we tried to leave the house he got epically upset that we were leaving the dog behind. We never take the dog with us, so this was super bizarre. But he kept crying and yelling her name and refusing to leave. Then I remembered that that morning DH had left before we got up and he didn't get to say goodbye. We have a little routine when DH leaves that usually involves crying and not wanting him to leave. He woke up asking for daddy and he was gone already. I think that the big deal with the dog was that he hadn't gotten to say goodbye to DH and was transferring those emotions with the dog, in effect acting out the routine with her.

Or just today, he didn't want to get in the car at all and it required lots of convincing on my part. He ultimately relented, but when we got to our destination (the craft store, thankfully it wasn't time sensitive) he refused to get out of the car. Luckily, the weather is mild and we weren't on a schedule, so we just sat there. For forty minutes! I didn't entertain him or anything, he just sat and now and then I asked if he was ready to get out. Finally, he was, and we got through the craft store without incident.

Everyone - including kids - wants to feel capable and powerful. When kids feel disempowered - which is often, since so much of our lives are lived on adult terms without their consent - they try to feel powerful again and regain a balance. This is a good thing, but we sadly see their efforts as simple bad behavior that has to be stopped.

Of course, hindsight is 20/20 and it's hard to see the cause of a power struggle as its happening. But there are things you can do to help them feel in control again, and hopefully avoid the battle.

For older kids, I think role reversal in play can be great. Let her be the parent while you pretend to get dressed. Do it slowly and let her hurry you up and remind you that you're going to be late. If you know what they're really upset about, maybe you can talk through it. "You expected daddy to take you to school, didn't you?" and see where that takes you.

As far as setting up expectations and having them magically be followed, I think that it's much easier if there is balance and they are empowered. Beyond that, I like the method of simple one-word reminders for routine things. After dinner - "Dishes!" Before bed, "Teeth!" then "PJs!" Before leaving the house, "Shoes!" That tends to be more effective than, "Okay, time to put your dish in the sink please." With a single word, you're also telling them that you know they know what to do.


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## erinsmom1996 (Apr 9, 2006)

Mama 24-7, I'm glad your method works for you. However, your post comes across as pretty harsh towards those who disagree. In life there are things that we all have to do that we don't want to do. Teaching children this at a young age, to me, prepares them for the real world. Your child's boss is not going to sit down with them and discuss why they don't want to do a certain task and try to reach a compromise. The boss will expect the task to be done. Children need to learn that life is not always fair and that it doesn't always go their way, but that's just my opinion. That said, I feel like you can use "gentle" discipline even if you do have expectations for your children's behavior.


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## erinsmom1996 (Apr 9, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mama24-7*
> 
> I've read through this thread and OMGoodness, if some of these responses are gentle discipline, then I'd hate to hear what is not gentle discipline.
> 
> ...


I'm glad your method works for you but your post is quite harsh and seems to condemn those who disagree. I don't see how discussing every single thing that you want to have your child do with them until they agree is possible, at least not for me. In the real world, we all have to do things we don't want to do. Your child's future boss is not going to discuss why they don't want to do a certain task with them and come to a solution with them. The boss will expect that the job gets done. Teaching your child that they can talk through every single situation, to me, does more harm than good. That said, I believe you can have expectations for your children and punishments if they don't meet the expectations and still use gentle discipline.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *erinsmom1996*
> 
> Mama 24-7, I'm glad your method works for you. However, your post comes across as pretty harsh towards those who disagree. In life there are things that we all have to do that we don't want to do. Teaching children this at a young age, to me, prepares them for the real world. Your child's boss is not going to sit down with them and discuss why they don't want to do a certain task and try to reach a compromise. The boss will expect the task to be done. Children need to learn that life is not always fair and that it doesn't always go their way, but that's just my opinion. That said, I feel like you can use "gentle" discipline even if you do have expectations for your children's behavior.


I am not entirely in disagreement with you, but I am not raising my children with their future boss in mind, nor their future professor. Perhaps their future partner and friends, but I am more focussed on what needs to be addressed right now. I have faith, though, that a child does not need harsh lessons now in order to prepare them for harsh lessons in the future. Harsh lessons happen without purposefully manufacturing them, and though that is not what you are saying, hopefully, when we talk about them like this, that's what it comes across as.

My children are in the "real world" already-- as yes, that includes the world where Mommy isn't always patient enough to guide them. And I know full well that there might come a time when something isn't working out and you need to charge on through with another direction, but I would say that the more harsh direction is not the first choice. I like to give my children a chance to work things out without the "sticks and carrots". (Boss be damned--we're self-employed.







I'm being sarcastic there!)


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## LiLStar (Jul 7, 2006)

I find it kinda weird when I see comparisons made to "when they're at work" when it comes to parenting/discipline choices.. and it comes up in homeschooling debates, too. I mean, it really has no relevance whatsoever to whether I insist my 3yo get these shoes on (and not spending 10 minutes looking for the other, more desired..and in my opinion crappier pair!) and get in the car NOW vs talking it out and negotiating until we come to a mutually agreeable solution. I think learning to negotiate is an excellent interpersonal skill. As for the workplace, an adult (or late teen) has a much more developed brain than a preschooler  They choose to apply for a job, and when accepting a job offer, they understand what will be expected of them and are agreeing to that. If they don't like it, they are free to leave and find work elsewhere. Or, actually, if they disagree with the way they are told to do their job, being able to clearly state their objection and a proposed alternative is a valuable skill! What comes to mind is a friend of mine at a new job, in a meeting discussing some project that was going to take several tedious hours. She had better ideas, they were skeptical, she asked for 20 minutes, and created something (computer programming related) that saved everyone hours and made her a VERY valuable part of the team.

Thats not to say I'm discussing every single thing with my kids! In the shoe scenario.. I'm inclined to just grab him and the shoes and buckle him in and put the shoes on when we get there than sit and reason with him.


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## echofuzz (Nov 27, 2012)

don't know if this helps, but my 3yo son sometimes has similar issues with us changing things up on him. for us, i don't see it as a power struggle. i see it as a situation that stresses him out, and a stressed out 3 year old isn't always good at staying calm. so we do what we can to keep the stress down and everyone calm.

if we know ahead of time that we'll be breaking routine, we give him as much warning as possible. so if we know the night before that daddy'll be taking him to school instead of me, we tell him the night before. then we remind him again in the morning.

if we make a last minute change, one of us will sit down with the boy and tell him about the change of plans. and when we tell him, we make sure we have his full attention. we ask him if he understands, and if he has any questions. usually this works well but sometimes it ISN'T okay with him to change things up, and sometimes he throws a tantrum. when that happens, we acknowledge that he's upset and we move forward with the changes. i often offer him extra snuggles, which goes a long way with him.

if time permits, i'll ask him on the spot why he's upset. (if time is short, i ask him later.) sometimes it's that he just wants to do it the old way. other times, other issues are revealed. (he had a bad dream that something happened to me or daddy. or i told him we'd stop for something on the way to school, and now he couldn't because daddy's taking him, etc.)

later, we'll talk about how to make changes to our routine easier. we ask him what would make it less stressful for him and remind him that we're a team and need to work together.


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## Snydley (Feb 22, 2012)

Quote:


> *To me a parent changing lots of things to accommodate what schedule makes it easiest for their child to behave is a bit like changing the rules so the child doesn't have to follow them.* To use your example, what if a higher speed limit makes it easier for you to comply with the law? Should it be changed so you can do what you want rather than have to follow the rules? If the sped limit was changed to be 50mph faster than it is now could the government then claim people are following the speed limit 99% of the time instead of the current 50% (or whatever number)? Sure, but they would just be manipulating things to get it to appear how they want it to look. The point is that everyone would be following the rules if they would just make the rules easier to follow but that's not always in the best interest of everyone.
> 
> I disagree with your analogy. *Refusing to create routine for your family that your children can count on is like changing all the traffic laws every day and expecting the drivers to just flow with it.* Imagine how frustrating it would be if every time you got in your car, you had to figure out whether to drive on the right or the left, whether or not you had the right away at intersections, the speed limits changed and were not posted, and you were randomly yelled at for not knowing that you were supposed to be doing. That is what life is like for a small child whose parent constantly changes how things happen in their family. They have no idea what is about to happen or what they are supposed to do, and they get really, really frustrated.


I'm in total agreement with Linda on the Move here. I believe that if you read the book Simplicity Parenting you'd find out how to solve this problem with your DD. It has made ALL THE DIFFERENCE in my house. Kids need life to be simple and predictable- with lots of unscheduled time to get to know (and like!) their true selves. The more a child has this type of lifestyle, the MORE adaptable they are when things are changed up/go awry.

-Jen


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## mambera (Sep 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *luckiest*
> 
> In my experience with my younger child (2.5), any kind of big upset or major tantrum that is out of the realm of normal (like things that are usually routine becoming battle grounds, like putting on clothes or getting in the car seat or whatever) is always, ALWAYS preceded by some event that made him feel disempowered or betrayed or unheard.
> 
> An example - the other day as we tried to leave the house he got epically upset that we were leaving the dog behind. We never take the dog with us, so this was super bizarre. But he kept crying and yelling her name and refusing to leave. Then I remembered that that morning DH had left before we got up and he didn't get to say goodbye. We have a little routine when DH leaves that usually involves crying and not wanting him to leave. He woke up asking for daddy and he was gone already. I think that the big deal with the dog was that he hadn't gotten to say goodbye to DH and was transferring those emotions with the dog, in effect acting out the routine with her.


I admire the degree of perceptiveness here but I'm not sure I can replicate it.

Thanks to everyone who is contributing to this discussion; I'm still following along and enjoying the different perspectives.

Overall things have been pretty calm and we haven't had to have a time-out in rather a while; I'm not sure if DD is just growing up a little or what. I did figure out an extremely simple way to get the time-out to go more smoothly. I just stop counting the time when she screams/kicks/etc, so that only non-screaming/tantruming time counts towards the end of the time-out - this works great, whereas the 'screaming/tantruming adds more time to the end of the time-out' (recommended by the 1-2-3 Magic author) totally did not work at all, I guess because she doesn't have the executive function to connect the two when she's in that state of mind.

She does have this total hypersensitivity to minor bumps in the road, and while I see the value in trying to forestall them with predictability and have been trying to stick to that, sometimes the things that set her off are so insanely miniscule that ironing them out of her life seems a gargantuan task that smacks of overparenting.

Eg today her dad picked up a new bike for her (old one getting too short) and he came home early and met us at the park after work with it. She was excited etc,, tried it out but it was a little too big so she couldn't ride it yet (we just needed to lower the seat). I was walking the bike back to the car and as a bit of a joke/timesaver I swung my leg over and rode it a couple of yards. She went *ballistic* ("Don't ride my biiiiiiike..." etc). I mean okay in retrospect I can see she was probably upset that she couldn't ride it so seeing me ride it was like salt in the wound, and I can file it as Thing 1,001 That Will Upset DD1 and try to avoid doing this or similar again, but isn't all this tiptoeing around her hair-trigger temper sort of excessive? As some posters have pointed out, the rest of the world won't be bending over backwards to accommodate her sensitivities.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mambera*
> 
> She was excited etc,, tried it out but it was a little too big so she couldn't ride it yet (we just needed to lower the seat). I was walking the bike back to the car and as a bit of a joke/timesaver I swung my leg over and rode it a couple of yards. She went *ballistic* ("Don't ride my biiiiiiike..." etc). I mean okay in retrospect I can see she was probably upset that she couldn't ride it so seeing me ride it was like salt in the wound, and I can file it as Thing 1,001 That Will Upset DD1 and try to avoid doing this or similar again, but isn't all this tiptoeing around her hair-trigger temper sort of excessive? As some posters have pointed out, the rest of the world won't be bending over backwards to accommodate her sensitivities.


Ohhhh, I so get this, the hair trigger. Trying to be playful/funny and it backfiring in a big way. Our DD is a funny, funny girl but has the same hair trigger if she perceives any kind of joke at her expense (even when it's not, when they're really little some kids don't get it). The thing is, SHE might have suggested the same exact thing, and *THEN* it would have been funny to her ("The bike is so big, mom could almost ride on it! See if you can fit on it mom hahahahahah!"). You just can never tell. *Facepalm*. It is getting slightly better as she gets older.

I really, totally feel you. It's like a crap shoot, you never know what's going to happen. And therein lies some of the biggest frustration with it all. I agree with the not wanting to walk on eggshells - it's a fine balancing act between setting things up to be predictable and setting kids up for success, and not being able to accommodate minor shifts/disappointments/changes that are just called life.


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## Snydley (Feb 22, 2012)

When I say keep things simple and predictable I do not mean don't jump on her bike as a joke. * My thought is that she might be hair-trigger sensitive to that because she's feeling generally overwhelmed by changes in her daily schedule/lack of free time/too much stuff everywhere, etc* (of course I have no idea how much of that is relevant to your home).

Here's one example..when my DD was 3ish she went through a phase where she would *flip out* if she didn't have a particular color cup to drink from. This behavior started when I started a part-time job with hours that varied each week. I might have been out of the house 10 hours a week total and this instantly turned her into a nightmare. Now, you could argue that is life, I need to work, she needs to deal, right? *The issue was not that I was working but that she became generally unsure of when I would be around and when I would be gone. *A big thing was when I had to leave early for work and she would wake up in the morning not knowing I wouldn't be there on a particular day. Once I read Simplicity Parenting, I set up a super-simple weekly calendar with "MOM WORKING" blocked off..and we would discuss the night before if I would not be there when she woke the next day. Guess what? She stopped asking for that damn cup.

-Jen


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## luckiest (Apr 29, 2009)

Oh my gosh, sorry to digress a bit, but I LOVE Simplicity Parenting. I'm so, so not a routine/ritual person, and it helped me see the value and necessity of creating little habitual, predictable routines throughout the day. I'm never going to be the type to have a hyper predictable daily routine, so the little routines are that much more important (going for a walk after breakfast, same book before nap time, leaving the house routine, etc).


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## mambera (Sep 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snydley*
> 
> When I say keep things simple and predictable I do not mean don't jump on her bike as a joke. * My thought is that she might be hair-trigger sensitive to that because she's feeling generally overwhelmed by changes in her daily schedule/lack of free time/too much stuff everywhere, etc* (of course I have no idea how much of that is relevant to your home).


Honestly that doesn't match my perception of our home at all. In general I would say our home has a very predictable daily and weekly routine. Do we have clutter? Yeah we have some clutter. It doesn't look like a hoarder lives here or anything. We have cleaners come every other week and the house has to be clutter-free enough for them to work, so it gets picked up that often at minimum.

Of course it may be that I am insufficiently appreciative of the extreme degree of routine and orderliness that DD1 could potentially? require. Eg posters have pointed out that the alternation in which parent takes her to school could be a problem. As I mentioned most of the time it is not. I would say I do drop-off about once a week, DH the rest of the time and usually it is not a problem. (We are both present for breakfast and preschool/daycare prep.) We could work to minimize the times when I do drop-off but it would create a lot of scheduling difficulty for DH (i.e. he could never do morning meetings for work which would be problematic) for something that 90% of the time is not associated with any behavior issues.

I am scratching my head trying to figure out where else we could reduce variability in her daily routine, and the only places to do that would be taking away enjoyable things that just can't happen every day. E.g. most days I get home early enough to take the kids to the park after work, some days not. We need to be home by about 5 pm to start the dinner/bath/bed routine. If I get DD1 out of day care by 4 we will go to the park, if not we will go straight home. I could switch to never going to the park or always getting the kids at the same (later) time just to enhance routine, but that doesn't seem like it would be a win for anyone. (No-park results in some disappointment but no tantruming that I recall, it's just an example of something that isn't exactly the same every day.)


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

If it's predictability you want to enhance, but not drop the fun, extra stuff you do some days, you need to make a calendar. A big one, with sequential days, not the stacked days of the typical monthly calendar. Put stickers or cut-out pictures you glue on on the days where something is happening-- a mommy face for the days you take her to school. A tree for the days she can expect to go to the park. Bath day. Etc. Then use a marker to indicate what day it is. Ours is a paper chain, with a clothespin we decorate. Or you can tear off a link for each day, but my girls chose to keep the chain intact. I posted this picture somewhere else, and I'll post it here, too. It really helps! This one is missing all the pictures we make and glue on. Here is February and March:


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SweetSilver*
> 
> . A tree for the days she can expect to go to the park. Bath day. Etc. Then use a marker to indicate what day it is. Ours is a paper chain, with a clothespin we decorate. Or you can tear off a link for each day, but my girls chose to keep the chain intact. I posted this picture somewhere else, and I'll post it here, too. It really helps! This one is missing all the pictures we make and glue on. Here is February and March:


But I think the issue here is that it's *not* predictable when she can do the fun thing of taking her to the park - it's a semi-spontaneous fun thing. So putting it on a calendar would probably make it worse, in case there was a day the park was expected and it couldn't happen (speaking from experience).

Still, I see the point. Calendars and checklists seem to work really for my own kids, so maybe you could get a regular calendar, and then look at it every night or every morning, however far ahead of time you know whether it will be you or DH doing school run, or when you could go to the park/not. I used to use a visual checklist for my daughter before she could read for her "chores" and the rhythm of the day, when she was around 4...so I'm sure you could find some good pictures - I just dropped them into a table I created in MS Word along with check boxes, then printed and laminated it.

These days they're asking for a lot more details, so I've been printing out daily schedules at night and it's the first thing we look at in the morning, so they can know what we're doing for the day. Takes less than 5 min to do at this point.

Oooooh, OP - I have a book I'm working through with my own angry badger kiddo, called, "What to do when you grumble too much" - and basically it's about "jumping hurdles"...where the hurdle is an unexpected problem. My daughter is almost 7, but I think you could tailor the book for a smaller kid, for sure, because this one seems almost a little simplistic for her. She really enjoyed the hurdle analogy, and I wish I would have started using it sooner with her.

You could also ask *her* what kinds of things would make it easier on her if you had to change plans at the last minute...and you might be surprised what the answers might be. One time I was having a problem getting my son't attention repeatedly, and so we brainstormed and he said he wanted me to go PSSSSSSST! and he's her that and turn his attention to me. This was several years ago, he was probably 5 or 6. I thought there was no way it would work, and felt a little ridiculous/rude doing it out in public, but damned if he wasn't right...and I still do it to this day for both of them, and figured out a way that I can make the sound that doesn't sound or feel totally rude. lol.


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mambera*
> 
> Eg today her dad picked up a new bike for her (old one getting too short) and he came home early and met us at the park after work with it. She was excited etc,, tried it out but it was a little too big so she couldn't ride it yet (we just needed to lower the seat). I was walking the bike back to the car and as a bit of a joke/timesaver I swung my leg over and rode it a couple of yards. She went *ballistic* ("Don't ride my biiiiiiike..." etc). I mean okay in retrospect I can see she was probably upset that she couldn't ride it so seeing me ride it was like salt in the wound, and I can file it as Thing 1,001 That Will Upset DD1 and try to avoid doing this or similar again, but isn't all this tiptoeing around her hair-trigger temper sort of excessive? As some posters have pointed out, the rest of the world won't be bending over backwards to accommodate her sensitivities.


I'm with your dd on this one. You rode *her* bike. In my experience, you don't get respect from them if you don't respect them yourself, their things and their boundaries. I don't take my kids' things. If I take them, I ask first.

I'm re-reading "Kids are worth it!", and it was a great refresher on the difference between punishment and discipline. Discipline is when you child's and you own dignity remain intact in the process. Punishment is when we want to control our kids' behaviour and make them mind.

IMO, time-outs as you do them are punishment; you want to control your dd and make her mind. If this is your objective, you can do it, she just needs a bigger punishment to make her stop tantruming.

If your objective is to give your dd the tools to deal with her own frustrations, I would change my approach. You don't need to bend over backwards to avoid tantrums. Let her be upset and express her frustrations. I wouldn't even dream of rearranging my schedule just to drop off my kid, because my dh dropping her off would make her upset. Let her be upset. She'll be over it.

To answer the title of your thread, you can't expect them to do something and not give them a choice if they know you would do anything to accommodate them. They KNOW they have a choice. They just need to be persistent enough to get what they want.

I leave small decisions to my kids, like who is riding their bike or what outfit to wear at school; decisions affecting the whole family, like who is doing the drop off at school, or if they are going to school, are made by adults.


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## mambera (Sep 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *transylvania_mom*
> 
> I'm with your dd on this one. You rode *her* bike. In my experience, you don't get respect from them if you don't respect them yourself, their things and their boundaries. I don't take my kids' things. If I take them, I ask first.


Well, if she didn't want me touching her bike she should have walked it back herself (she didn't want to). Given I had to do that job, in general I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to do it in the most efficient way possible. Would apply to an adult also (of course most adults would transport their own bikes in the first place - but if I had to transport someone else's bike I sure as shooting would expect to ride, not walk it). All the customs in our house apply to all members equally. I don't treat DD any way I wouldn't want to be treated. If I ever hit her (I haven't) I would apologize and put myself in time out.

But yes, totally not worth triggering a tantrum, and as I said I am clearly insufficiently senstive to her triggers. Although I might not have pulled that stunt had she not a moment before been laughing hysterically at a dad who was riding his kid's trike around in circles. There is definitely a dishes-it-out-but-can't-take-it quality to DD1's personality.

Quote:


> I'm re-reading "Kids are worth it!", and it was a great refresher on the difference between punishment and discipline. Discipline is when you child's and you own dignity remain intact in the process. Punishment is when we want to control our kids' behaviour and make them mind.
> 
> IMO, time-outs as you do them are punishment; you want to control your dd and make her mind. If this is your objective, you can do it, she just needs a bigger punishment to make her stop tantruming.


I want her not to be violent. Physical violence is an absolute no around here, and it is the only thing that is absolute in that way. It is not up for discussion. If that is controlling or if it makes her tantrum then so be it.

Quote:


> If your objective is to give your dd the tools to deal with her own frustrations, I would change my approach. You don't need to bend over backwards to avoid tantrums. Let her be upset and express her frustrations. I wouldn't even dream of rearranging my schedule just to drop off my kid, because my dh dropping her off would make her upset. Let her be upset. She'll be over it.
> 
> To answer the title of your thread, you can't expect them to do something and not give them a choice if they know you would do anything to accommodate them. They KNOW they have a choice. They just need to be persistent enough to get what they want.
> 
> I leave small decisions to my kids, like who is riding their bike or what outfit to wear at school; decisions affecting the whole family, like who is doing the drop off at school, or if they are going to school, are made by adults.


This advice doesn't seem relevant to what was asked in any way... ???


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

"This advice doesn't seem relevant to what was asked in any way... ???"

You asked: how do I expect kids to do something and not give them a choice?

I answered: they know they have a choice if you give in to their tantrums.

I specifically addressed the situations mentioned in your posts: dressing up for school and who is dropping them off.

Were these not your posts???

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mambera*
> 
> I see many mamas on here say they 'just expect' that their children will do A, B, C, or that they 'don't give them a choice.'
> 
> ...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mambera*
> 
> I would say *I do drop-off about once a week*, DH the rest of the time and usually it is not a problem. (We are both present for breakfast and preschool/daycare prep.) We could work to minimize the times when I do drop-off but it would create a lot of scheduling difficulty for DH (i.e. he could never do morning meetings for work which would be problematic) for something that 90% of the time is not associated with any behavior issues.


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## mambera (Sep 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *transylvania_mom*
> 
> "This advice doesn't seem relevant to what was asked in any way... ???"
> 
> ...


Sure but then you went off talking about parents who "bend over backwards to avoid tantrums," or "do anything to accommodate them," which doesn't in any way describe my approach or the situations I mentioned, so it just seemed like an irrelevant addition to the thread. Cool if you want to drop it here for the record, it just didn't really seem too on topic to me. :shrug:


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mambera*
> 
> She does have this total hypersensitivity to *minor bumps* in the road, and while I see the value in trying to forestall them with predictability and have been trying to stick to that, sometimes the things that set her off are so *insanely miniscule that ironing them out of her life seems a gargantuan task that smacks of overparenting.*
> 
> Eg today her dad picked up a new bike for her (old one getting too short) and he came home early and met us at the park after work with it. She was excited etc,, tried it out but *it was a little too big* so she couldn't ride it yet (we just needed to lower the seat). I was walking the bike back to the car and *as a bit of a joke/timesaver I swung my leg over and rode it* a couple of yards. She went *ballistic* ("Don't ride my biiiiiiike..." etc). I mean okay in retrospect I can see she was probably upset that she couldn't ride it so seeing me ride it was like salt in the wound, and I can file it as Thing 1,001 That Will Upset DD1 and try to avoid doing this or similar again, but isn't all this tiptoeing around her hair-trigger temper sort of excessive? As some posters have pointed out, the rest of the world won't be bending over backwards to accommodate her sensitivities.


I can see why this wasn't a "minor bump" to her. It wasn't "insanely miniscule" to her. She has a very different perspective than you, and you don't seem to see life from her PoV.

Helping our children deal with their difficult emotions is just parenting. Its not over parenting.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mambera*
> 
> Well, if she didn't want me touching her bike she should have walked it back herself (she didn't want to). Given I had to do that job, in general I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to do it in the most efficient way possible. *Would apply to an adult also* (of course most adults would transport their own bikes in the first place - but if I had to transport someone else's bike I sure as shooting would expect to ride, not walk it). *All the customs in our house apply to all members equally. * I don't treat DD any way I wouldn't want to be treated. If I ever hit her (I haven't) I would apologize and put myself in time out.


I think that it is completely unfair to a 3 year old to expect them to handle things the way an adult would.

The bike was too big for her. She couldn't ride it. You made a big joke out of *you* riding it. Of course she was upset, most kids would be.

(since the customs are the same for everyone, if your husband buys you a gorgeous new ring for a gift and it is too small for you, does she get to wear it first and make a big joke of it?)


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## matope (Apr 5, 2013)

I havent had to deal with much of this yet with my own son since hes 1, but with my nephew often as i was his primary caretaker, I used what my mom did with me.... the unbending will.

She's one of those people who just naturally command attention even tho shes super tiny, but she was always very matter-of-fact with us. Things just werent presented as an option... 'i dont wanna take a bath' got 'well its bathtime so off you go'. there was a consequence for every bad behavior and for good behaviors as well. She never gave in to a tantrum even tho we all threw them at one point or another. We also all knew what the phrase ' that is unacceptable behavior' meant at a very very young age.

As for getting ready in the morning, if you're on a time constraint, can you have her pick her clothing every night for the next day so that she has free will in the choice and gets to be excited about wearing her specially picked clothing in the morning? It worked for us (that and color coded hangers ... white for everyday and colors for church/dress up).

My mom was a single parent with 3 girls and we all had a really good childhood! (and now shes a great role model for all our kids... and for us as parents!)


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## mambera (Sep 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> I can see why this wasn't a "minor bump" to her. It wasn't "insanely miniscule" to her. She has a very different perspective than you, and you don't seem to see life from her PoV.


Obviously it was quite a big deal to her (things are a big deal to her very often), and yes I agree that she has a totally different perspective and I don't see life from her PoV.

I am generally pretty calm, it takes a lot to upset or offend me, my relationships are stable with no drama. DD2 is like this as well. DD1 is totally different in a way that makes no sense to me, and I therefore am unable to predict the triggers for her behavior with any accuracy.

The question is, how far do I go in trying to arrange things around her PoV, versus letting her know that while she may have this PoV, she still has to get dressed for school in the morning, etc.

Quote:


> I think that it is completely unfair to a 3 year old to expect them to handle things the way an adult would.


I agree, but a previous poster suggested that the problem was that I was not giving DD1 the respect I would give an adult, which was not the case. It may be that this situation in fact required more/different consideration than if she had been an adult, but certainly there was not less-than.

I do think there is value in letting children see that the same rules apply to everyone (insofar as that is practical and reasonable given our different levels of development and roles in the household). Eg when I tell DD1 not to hit, I am able to say 'I don't hit you, you don't hit me: Nobody hits in this house." It's important to young children that things be 'fair' and I do think that having similar behavioral expectations for everyone is useful. That's not to say that I expect DD1 to act like an adult, but that the general rules of respect for others apply to everyone.

Quote:


> The bike was too big for her. She couldn't ride it. You made a big joke out of *you* riding it. Of course she was upset, most kids would be.


I wouldn't call it a big joke. I certainly didn't call attention to it. I just swung my leg over and scooted it a few yards to the car. There was a parents-riding-bikes joke vibe in the park because of the other dad riding the trike, who was attracting attention (it was quite funny-looking and his kid obviously didn't mind). But the joke aspect didn't originate with me.

Quote:


> (since the customs are the same for everyone, if your husband buys you a gorgeous new ring for a gift and it is too small for you, does she get to wear it first and make a big joke of it?)


Well, that's sort of an unfruitful comparison because I don't have much interest in jewelry or in 'stuff' in general, my DH knows that and therefore doesn't buy me jewelry, and jewelry that does get bought for me (my MIL keeps bringing me gold) does seem to often end up as children's toys. My general lack of interest in stuff does make it hard for me to relate to others who really care about stuff, both adults and children. I have to remind myself that other people really care about things that I don't care about at all.


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## sarafi (Feb 10, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mambera*
> 
> Obviously it was quite a big deal to her (things are a big deal to her very often), and yes I agree that she has a totally different perspective and I don't see life from her PoV.
> 
> ...


I have a kid like this, and I'll give you the same advice I repeat to myself: "get to know them, figure them out--childhood is a short time" Spend time doing whatever it is they like to do and just listen when they talk--laundry be damned  Sleep in their bed every few weeks and chat during the night if that's all the time you can manage. This is a member of your family, so G-d willing you will be in a relationship with them for a good long time. It's worth it now to try to understand their innate personalities and motivations and build a solid relationship. This "not understanding" a persons character or personality will not magically disappear when they get older, and you may miss out on a relationship with your adult child.

If you can get a handle on what makes this kid tick, simple routines or habits will do wonders for your transitions. If not, you are always going to be flummoxed by something that went wrong unexpectedly.

**About five years ago, I started having each child do a different job with me. So not a chore that I nagged them to do, something I would do alone usually. My eldest helps fold and put away clothes, second kiddo helps me clean the bathrooms, third helps load/unload the dishes, number four does very little at this point, etc. We do "our job" at least once a week (together) so it's not a fight and we get to talk without tv, toys, siblings, etc. They open up a lot when they are distracted with a job they know how to do. Start small, you'll figure some way to connect with your kiddo. They have actual jobs to do also, this is just a good way to connect without feeling forced--as long as you can make it a habit.


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## Cavy (Aug 21, 2009)

This once came up on another online forum (not UP, btw).

I kept pressing pressing pressing, but What would you do if your child defied you?

And they all had consequences in mind after all. So to say they parented without needing consequences was untrue, they just did not have to resort to them very often.

I think some people have considerable powers of persuasion. I have none and am generally immune to them too, so I am late to find out this exists or how this works.

Also, some people are easily bullied (I was). Others are merely compliant by nature (DS3 & DD). I can usually get cooperation out of them just by asking nicely, occasionally resort to glowering.

But DS1, omg. And DS2 (SHUDDER). DS2 is breath-takingly defiant. He goes thru life arguing with everyone and everything.

They are all changing as they get older, though. DD has turned horribly defiant but only just occasionally (now 11). DS3 can get hysterical during his rare disagreements.

DS1 goes dead calm nowadays, 80% of the time, when he wants to stand his ground. Ultra reasonable. And DS2... well, still a nightmare. Best way to get cooperation out of DS2 is to make him think it was his idea to do what I wanted in the first place (I think this is one of those secrets of persuasion things).


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## Songy (May 7, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *starling&diesel*
> 
> When I was first parenting a toddler, I applied my years of dog training (stay with me, here) to the experience.
> 
> ...


I've been trying to think of a response to this post for a few days, but I think that this ^^ is pretty much what I would say. She did a great job of breaking it down. I'm a kindergarten teacher and regularly wrangle 30 - 60 5 year-olds a day and rarely have any problems - and I don't yell, threaten, belittle, shame, or use sarcasm. The kids WANT to do what I ask them to do. An early poster (can't remember who, sorry) said that she thought some people just have a natural way of commanding respect or getting others to listen. I would say that I do come by it naturally, which is why I spent so long figuring out what to post. I wasn't even sure exactly WHY kids, and even adults, listen. But, I do all of the things the above poster suggests, so I'm sure that is part of it. My motto is: "Say what you mean and mean what you say." I think a lot of times, adults aren't clear which leaves a lot of wriggle room. For example, you might say, "I'll be in there in a minute" when you really mean 5 minutes. Or you ask a child to put away their plate and then you walk away. The plate stays out and it is too much trouble to go track down the kid, so you put it away yourself. Little stuff like this ads up. You have to be very clear and consistent. That isn't to say you can't change your mind if you realize your expectations were off. You just have to tell them that you changed your mind and why, so they understand - you don't want them to think they just wore you down. And, most important: prevent problems before they start. If the same problem keeps arising, you have to step back and figure out WHY it is happening. If you don't know, ask the kid - he/she probably does know! With discussion, you might be able to figure it out together. Often times, kids can come up with great solutions to problems. You might be able to talk it out right then - in the middle of the situation - but, more often, you need to wait until the child is calm and well-rested. Sometimes, you need to bring it up more than once to give the child a lot of time to think about what is going on.

Lastly, when I think about getting kids to do what I need them to do, I want to start with asking them to do something I know they can do successfully. I'm very visual, so bare with me. . . I imagine a lasso, corral, or box or something - my visual for boundaries. If I needed to "catch" that child, I'd want to start with a HUGE "lasso." I set the boundaries, but I set them large enough that the child will be INSIDE of them. If I start with the boundaries too, tight, the child will just jump right out. Over time, I gradually tighten the boundaries to move them in the direction I'm trying to move the child. I know if I'm moving too fast, because that is when the child goes outside of the boundaries I'm setting. (I'm not sure if this will make sense to others and it sounds a bit manipulative, but there are times when I really need to modify behavior and this is far more gentle/respectful to what is generally practiced.) Basic example: if I walk into a room and there are kids running around wild and I need to get them calm, I'm not going to immediately expect them to be quiet (tight boundaries)- I would totally fail at that and then would lose their respect, which would make the next thing I try even harder to accomplish. Instead, I might invite them all to hop in place, stomp their feet, or engage in a clapping game (loose boundaries.) Then, I can gradually tone down the activity, like asking them to pat their thighs, touch their toes, sit down, whisper, etc. In just a minute or two, they will all be calm. This is a simple example how this works quickly with a large group of children, but it also works with individual kids on more challenging behaviors, though in these instances it might take many days, weeks, or even months. Anyway, I hope that wasn't too confusing!


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## mambera (Sep 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sonjagrabel*
> 
> I've been trying to think of a response to this post for a few days, but I think that this ^^ is pretty much what I would say. She did a great job of breaking it down. I'm a kindergarten teacher and regularly wrangle 30 - 60 5 year-olds a day and rarely have any problems - and I don't yell, threaten, belittle, shame, or use sarcasm. The kids WANT to do what I ask them to do. An early poster (can't remember who, sorry) said that she thought some people just have a natural way of commanding respect or getting others to listen. I would say that I do come by it naturally, which is why I spent so long figuring out what to post. I wasn't even sure exactly WHY kids, and even adults, listen. But, I do all of the things the above poster suggests, so I'm sure that is part of it. My motto is: "Say what you mean and mean what you say." I think a lot of times, adults aren't clear which leaves a lot of wriggle room. For example, you might say, "I'll be in there in a minute" when you really mean 5 minutes. Or you ask a child to put away their plate and then you walk away. The plate stays out and it is too much trouble to go track down the kid, so you put it away yourself. Little stuff like this ads up. You have to be very clear and consistent. That isn't to say you can't change your mind if you realize your expectations were off. You just have to tell them that you changed your mind and why, so they understand - you don't want them to think they just wore you down. And, most important: prevent problems before they start. If the same problem keeps arising, you have to step back and figure out WHY it is happening. If you don't know, ask the kid - he/she probably does know! With discussion, you might be able to figure it out together. Often times, kids can come up with great solutions to problems. You might be able to talk it out right then - in the middle of the situation - but, more often, you need to wait until the child is calm and well-rested. Sometimes, you need to bring it up more than once to give the child a lot of time to think about what is going on.
> 
> Lastly, when I think about getting kids to do what I need them to do, I want to start with asking them to do something I know they can do successfully. I'm very visual, so bare with me. . . I imagine a lasso, corral, or box or something - my visual for boundaries. If I needed to "catch" that child, I'd want to start with a HUGE "lasso." I set the boundaries, but I set them large enough that the child will be INSIDE of them. If I start with the boundaries too, tight, the child will just jump right out. Over time, I gradually tighten the boundaries to move them in the direction I'm trying to move the child. I know if I'm moving too fast, because that is when the child goes outside of the boundaries I'm setting. (I'm not sure if this will make sense to others and it sounds a bit manipulative, but there are times when I really need to modify behavior and this is far more gentle/respectful to what is generally practiced.) Basic example: if I walk into a room and there are kids running around wild and I need to get them calm, I'm not going to immediately expect them to be quiet (tight boundaries)- I would totally fail at that and then would lose their respect, which would make the next thing I try even harder to accomplish. Instead, I might invite them all to hop in place, stomp their feet, or engage in a clapping game (loose boundaries.) Then, I can gradually tone down the activity, like asking them to pat their thighs, touch their toes, sit down, whisper, etc. In just a minute or two, they will all be calm. This is a simple example how this works quickly with a large group of children, but it also works with individual kids on more challenging behaviors, though in these instances it might take many days, weeks, or even months. Anyway, I hope that wasn't too confusing!


Thank you, I like both these posts. The only thing is, I actually feel like I already do most of this. Maybe I am wrong. But most of the specific stuff starling&diesel listed, that describes very well how I operate. The procedure for leaving the park, tailoring requests to things the child is primed to do, the picking-battles (I also have a very small set of essential things I need my kids to do, I certainly am not picking battles over type of clothing, backpack full of blocks, sandwich shape etc.). I do use the time-out for hitting, I'd be open to alternatives but I have yet to hear a good one (leaving the park doesn't work when you're at home already). The timeout really works, DD1 is almost never physically violent in any way, actually she is incredibly tolerant of DD2 who will just walk up to her and pull her hair or scratch or bite her. (I am implementing short timeouts for DD2 to work on this problem, and also to show DD1 that DD2 does not get away with hurting people either.)

In terms of the same problem arising, actually I would say that is part of why this is tough to figure out - because it isn't the same problem all the time, actually I can't think of a single situation that is a problem all the time. The problem is that every day there is a different problem. She may brush her teeth without complaint for nine days in a row, and then on the tenth day suddenly it's a huge issue that blows up into a battle before I can even see it coming.

(Although again I would say things have gotten much much better over time, and are much better now than they were when I started this thread. When DD1 was around two she had multiple screaming fits every day over minor issues, now maybe it's once a day and they don't last nearly as long as they did.)

I like the idea of a gradation of boundaries, that is really interesting and sounds potentially useful. I'm not really sure how it works with a temper tantrum though. Like what is the smallest step down from a temper tantrum other than stop-crying? She's not too bad at stop-crying if she has a reason to - e.g. if the reason for the tantrum is something I can actually fix and I tell her 'I can't understand you when you scream, so tell me calmly and I will help you out," she can pretty much control herself, but if the thing she is tantruming about is not something I can fix there doesn't seem to be any way to get her to calm down. I just let her know I'm sorry she's angry, I can't give her what she wants, and then let her get over it in her own time. I'd love to hear your thoughts on stepping her down from a tantrum.

Also sometimes when she is upset and I try to move her from angry to silly, then the silly just gets out of control and that's not something I want either. Then when I try to tone down the silly she goes right back to angry. Eg she is flipping out about getting the wrong cup or whatever, I try to redirect to silly ('We hate the monkey cup!" make silly monkey face etc.) then she might start laughing but also jumping on me making loud monkey noises in my face, grabbing my hair etc. Then if I try to calm that down at all (quiet monkey? no dice) she gets upset and returns to her tantrum.

I also think the people who pointed out the predictability/routine issues may be on to something, because obviously there are things that I don't think of as major areas of unpredictability (eg park some days and not others) that may seem like mountains of random unfairness to DD1. I'm still thinking about ways to enhance routine without taking away the fun little extras.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

OP -- you posted for advice, and have been given some good advice, in my opinion. I disagree with some of what I've read, but some has been spot on!

The theme I've seen is you being argumentative with the posters. You say you already do what's been advised, or it wouldn't work with your child, etc. Based on that, I'm inclined to believe things are not going to improve with your daughter until you are open to making a change. I fully expect you to disagree with this. Still, if you can open yourself to the idea that you and your daughter are different people, with different points of view, AND NEITHER IS RIGHT OR WRONG, then, I predict, you will see improvement.


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> OP -- you posted for advice, and have been given some good advice, in my opinion. I disagree with some of what I've read, but some has been spot on!
> 
> The theme I've seen is you being argumentative with the posters. You say you already do what's been advised, or it wouldn't work with your child, etc. Based on that, I'm inclined to believe things are not going to improve with your daughter until you are open to making a change. I fully expect you to disagree with this. Still, if you can open yourself to the idea that you and your daughter are different people, with different points of view, AND NEITHER IS RIGHT OR WRONG, then, I predict, you will see improvement.


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## mambera (Sep 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> OP -- you posted for advice, and have been given some good advice, in my opinion. I disagree with some of what I've read, but some has been spot on!


I completely agree. Some of it has been implemented, to good effect (eg the routine/pre-warning stuff). Some of it has not been implemented, either because it is already in use or doesn't seem to apply to our situation.

Quote:


> The theme I've seen is you being argumentative with the posters. You say you already do what's been advised, or it wouldn't work with your child, etc.


Any set of advice on the internet is going to contain some items that are useful, some that are already being implemented, and some that don't work for the particular situation. It seems you and I disagree about which category each of the pieces offered here fall into. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but I'll keep mine as well, thanks.

Quote:


> Based on that, I'm inclined to believe things are not going to improve with your daughter until you are open to making a change. I fully expect you to disagree with this.


Well, it is hard to take you seriously when your dire predictions are in direct contradiction to the reality that things have already improved, and continue to do so.

Quote:


> you and your daughter are different people, with different points of view,


This is a truism, but it's fine if you would like to restate it for the record

Quote:


> AND NEITHER IS RIGHT OR WRONG,


I would say that anyone who is viewing interactions between people through a lens of 'right and wrong' is in trouble to begin with.

Quote:


> then, I predict, you will see improvement.


Indeed! Thank you for your contribution to the thread.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

If you are truly already being consistent then this is probably a testing phase and it should end as soon as your DD realizes that you and your Dh are not going to change your mind just because a tantrum happens.

You mentioned that your DD gets too silly then mad again when you try the playful approach. I suggest allowing her to be mad and not trying to change that. Let her know that it is OK to be mad and you are there for her if she wants a hug then let her feel her emotion without trying to stop her. Being mad or sad about not getting your way is normal and she will manage these emotions without crying as she gets older. If distraction isn't working empathize briefly and move on to allowing her to express herself. As long as she isn't hurting something her emotional expressions should be allowed.

It also sounds like her being mad is how she is interacting with you because you try to stop it. Changing your reaction to quietly staying in the room and seeking out other opportunities to interact may help decrease how often she flies off the handle over little things.


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## KellyGlenn (Sep 29, 2009)

Because this is a long thread, I haven't taken the time to read through every post - just glanced at the first few pages.

I teach Positive Discipline workshops. Here's a list of tools to prevent power struggles over clothes in the mornings.

1. Create a visual routine chart. Let the child help create the chart. Ask, "What's next on your chart?" so the child is the "boss" of the routine. Here's an article I wrote on this.

2. Spend special time with each child each week (30 minutes to an hour) to build your relationship. During special time, focus on enjoying each other's company and building up your child. This really cuts down on many power struggles after special time is a routine thing.

3. Find time in the morning routine to do something with your daughter - either brush your teeth together or get dressed together or eat breakfast together. Again, the intent is to build the relationship, something that will help prevent power struggles and indirectly invite cooperation.

4. Ask your child's help. Hugs, then ask, "Hey, I really need your help in getting to work on time (or getting you to school on time.) What are your ideas?

5. Find out feelings and validate her feelings: "So, you're not really wanting to get dressed this morning, love. What's going on?" Often this was enough to dissolve any resistance.

I'm suggesting that the long range goal is to diffuse the power struggle and if she starts a power struggle to not engage in it because like a tug of war, she's going to most likely pull harder once you start engaging in the power struggle.

I think there was one time where I put some clothes in a bag and told my son we had to leave. He decided to get dressed in the car in the preschool parking lot. He could have gotten dressed in the school bathroom as well, but he didn't want his friends to see. I didn't blame or shame him for this and tried to say as little as possible to let him learn from the experience. I didn't have this particular power struggle often with either of my kids so my son's example was a one time event.


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## elus0814 (Sep 21, 2009)

I don't want to sound like I'm arguing every point, I'm trying to understand how things like this can work.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *KellyGlenn*
> 
> Because this is a long thread, I haven't taken the time to read through every post - just glanced at the first few pages.
> 
> ...


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## KellyGlenn (Sep 29, 2009)

elus0814,

Using these tools definitely requires a shift in thinking from the way that traditional discipline "thinks."

My personal philosophy is that some behavior issues are completely due to typical development and the rest of behavior issues are about the parent-child relationship. I also believe that most children do want to cooperate when given the opportunity.

About the routine, I'm not sure how a morning routine might be different each morning. Most kids have to eat breakfast, get dressed, brush teeth and hair and get backpack. Creating an order for these to be done helps a child indirectly learn predictability and these types of daily routines are extremely healthy for social-emotional development.

I agree that spending special time with each child is challenging time wise for some families. I also believe that we work hard for those things we value. For example, I don't personally care for television, but many families put a high value on this and spend lots of time and energy around the television.

About talking about issues, yes family meetings are another good way to solve problems at times when the problem isn't happening. On another note, if there isn't much time to talk in the morning, then maybe more time needs to be allowed for the child to complete the routine.

I suggested lots of ideas because every family is different and some ideas won't work for every family.

I have used these types of tools for years and years and am so happy with the long term results. A mom asked for suggestions, so I offered some. These tools definitely aren't for everyone, but they definitely are gentle discipline tools.


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## KellyGlenn (Sep 29, 2009)

We also have a concept in Positive Discipline called mistaken goals.

Which words describe YOUR feelings when your daughter is misbehaving?

annoyed, irritated

worried, guilty

challenge, threatened, provoked, defeated

hurt, disappointed, disbelieving, disgusted


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## Songy (May 7, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mambera*
> 
> (Although again I would say things have gotten much much better over time, and are much better now than they were when I started this thread. When DD1 was around two she had multiple screaming fits every day over minor issues, now maybe it's once a day and they don't last nearly as long as they did.)
> 
> ...


Graduated boundaries for this issue: I think it would be more long-term than something that would be implemented during a specific tantrum. Once a child is in a tantrum, in my experience, you aren't going to get anywhere until the child has calmed down. That would be the focus at that time. The graduated boundary might be more of what you consider acceptable in the morning. Now, it might be okay that teeth aren't brushed, clothes don't match, and mom gives more assistance with getting things together. Over time, you will work to build independence.

So, how to build independence and increase cooperation: I think it can be helpful to specifically practice what you want to happen. (Not actually when you are trying to get ready in the morning, but on the weekend, in the evening, or some other time when everyone is relaxed.) Make a game of it, maybe even use a timer - timers make everything fun! And, it might be good to do it with all the kids, not just the one having trouble. Practice what it "look like, "feels like," and "sounds like" to do the morning routine. Have her practice it both the "right" way and the "wrong" way and talk about it afterwards. (Usually kids really LOVE to practice it the wrong way! Only do that a couple of times though. Do it the "right" way many times to get in ingrained.)

Since the situation that triggers the tantrum changes, you might have to actually have her practice what to do when she has a tantrum. Even before that, though, you need to work with her on learning how to calm herself down. I suspect that the tantrums actually scare her a little bit and she doesn't know how to calm herself down. When she is calm and there is plenty of time, teach her some calming down strategies. A few that I use: Belly breathing (I find that the most tense kids have a very difficult time learning how to breathe in their belly. I have some strategies for teaching this if you are interested.) Blowing up a pretend balloon, counting or singing a specific song, turning on a pretend faucet and letting the water (anger/stress) pour out, or doing some sort of task, like filling a bucket with blocks or squishing something (I can explain any of these further, if needed. The belly breathing is usually the best, but I teach kids several strategies and let them choose which one they want to use. I even have a poster I made of the choices and I post it in the room if I have a student who needs it. When you are teaching this, you need to talk about different scenarios where these strategies might be used and act them out. Don't expect this to work perfectly the first time. She will need to try them out when a real tantrum hits. After the tantrum, talk to her about which ones worked and which ones didn't and how they made her feel. Talk, talk, talk. I keep saying that because, in the end, the solution will come from her. She has to be the one to figure out what works for her, and you will only find that out by discussing it with her. Encourage her and celebrate small successes, even if it is just a slightly shorter or less tantrum.

I'm glad to hear they are getting better. Think on that and see if you can figure out WHY they are getting better. That will help you keep the momentum going. I know that with a bunch of kids and lots of stress, sometimes it is easy to overlook successes, but it is important to reflect on them, to notice even the smallest improvement, so you can figure out what works.

I can't remember how old our daughter is and can't scroll back since I'm in the middle of this. If she is old enough where you think she should be mostly over tantrums by this point, I would really start trying to find the root cause. You said that it isn't at a consistent time of day or always about the same type of problem. There still might be a common thread, though. Seems like a control issue. . . If she is trying to assert control over these seemingly insignificant things, is it because she feels like she doesn't have control in other areas? Is it overstimulation? Is she seeking attention for some reason? Maybe there is a food sensitivity - lots of foods can make children have difficulty controlling themselves - and parents are often really surprised at how much food can affect behavior. (Common foods that can cause disruptive behavior: dairy, gluten, corn, soy, artificial flavors, artificial colors, artificial sweeteners, MSG, sugar, etc.)

Anyway, hope you are able to find something useful. And remember, she isn't doing this to make your life difficult. This is probably the best she can do right now. But, with time, practice, and support, she will improve.


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## sarafi (Feb 10, 2008)

Once a kid hits tantrum stage, it's all over as far as learning goes. Routines are meant to be stuff that is a "given" and will lesson tantrums once the kid is used to, and agrees to the routine.

I don't understand the idea that it would be impossible to have a "schedule" even if you do different things on different days.

KISS (I say silly for the last)

Every Morning Routine: wake up, eat breakfast, bring in dishes, brush teeth, wash face, put on new clothes. Done--then leave for activity in 10 minutes, or four hours. No tv/playing until these things are done.

Leave the house Routine: go to the toilet, put on shoes, fill/grab water bottles or backpacks.

We tend to over think these things, and let kids drag them out if we are stressed about something "different" that we need to do.

There will always be 30 minutes in the week that you can spend alone with a child, it's just a matter of doing it--shoot split it into 3 10 minute segments if you have to. We have 4 kiddos, and DH gets home about two hours before bedtime most days--we spend that time at dinner prep and homework. It doesn't have to be a fun "play date" if you really can't swing it--at this point I have a few chores that I do with the older two and we spend that time talking. Trust me, no one is mad that they don't get to rake leaves, or clean bathrooms, or fold laundry but it's still a special time to chat with the kid who is joining me in work at that moment. I learn a lot about their lives this way.


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## Songy (May 7, 2012)

Regarding the bike incident and my previous suggestion of teaching her (and practicing) what you want her to do. . . I think the focus should be on how to handle when things don't go as expected or she doesn't like when something happens.

One thing I teach is that you can't solve your problem until you calm down. I give examples when that is a problem for ME. My favorite is a time when I dropped my keys in the little area between my car seat and car door. I was running late and couldn't get my fingers down in the crevice to reach them. I tell them how I became angry and frustrated - and even act out how I acted. "Nothing is working! It isn't fair! Why does everything go wrong for me?!" I explain how I kept doing the same thing over and over - trying to jam my fingers in the crevice. I was so upset, I couldn't THINK. I demonstrated self talk - I showed them how I talked myself down from a fit: "Sonja, you are doing the same thing over and over again and it isn't working. You need to calm down and think about it to solve your problem." I explained that once I calmed down, I was able to realize I needed to get out of the car, shift the seat back, and grab my keys. It was an easy problem to solve once I am calm. I talk a lot with them about times they got frustrated and couldn't think. We keep coming back to the theme that you need to calm down to solve your problems. (That is when start practicing calming down techniques.)

So, anyway, I've already touched on this a bit. What I'm trying to point out here is that she wanted to tell you not to ride the bike. She couldn't tell you that because she was not calm. Try working with her to help her understand that when she throws a tantrum, no one knows what she needs. Practice what she should have done in this situation: "Mom, that is my bike. Don't ride it!" If she would've said this, you would have known to stop. She needs help understanding how to communicate her needs when she is upset. This can be practiced - I've seen it work many times. You also need to notice when she DOES stay calm and communicate her needs. Point it out when it happens and say something like: Thank you for telling me! It really helps when you tell me that. . . "

You aren't going to be able to tiptoe around her "hair trigger" very successfully, but you can teach her how to tell you what her needs are so it isn't a guessing game for you.


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## moving toward (Nov 14, 2012)

my dd is 3 and has a firecracker personality - we manage by always giving a choice - normally do you want the blue or red shirt etc. But yes sometimes the choice is do you want to get dressed and go to school or do you want me to dress you and carry you to school crying? I'm not proud of it but my dd also responds well to the ok well you stay home by yourself and I'll go to school thing, - works in a multiple variety of situations.

The most succesful thing is the 1,2 3 approach, ie: please stop watching tv to do..,

i asked you to stop watching tv, If I ask you again I'm turning it off,

tv turned off. No punishments ever - but relatable consequences - if there isn't a logical consequence then I really question if there is a need to intervene at all.

I think also at some point you have to accept that pc or not - you are the parent and the leaders of the household and things need to be done, and just do them even if there is a back drop of crying. I made it very clear to my dd from birth pretty much that she will never be made to do anything that wasn't essential so if I'm telling her it has to be done then i mean it. (ie you must bath at least once a week, but daily would be better or you must wash your hair before going to the hairdresser)

So far we haven't had to use time out. I am not an "alpha mom" , I don't hit and I don't yell - but I do have a tone, and facial expression that lets her know that while her opinions are considered very helpful, I have the final say.

oh i forgot to add - I really do pick my battles - I have very low expectations of behaviour and I'm forever amazed at how well she does. My first thought is always - approach with kindness, we go from there...


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## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

I have 5 children. I am not a perfect parent. I am not perfectly calm and patient all of the time. (Is anyone, haha?) Generally speaking, this is what works for us: 1) we try to keep our rules simple: be respectful of other people, listen and respond appropriately, ask mom/dad before doing something/going somewhere outside the house (safety stuff); 2) make the expectations known before the situation starts (when we get in the car, we will buckle up, when we get to the store, we will all stay together, etc.) 3) lay out the consequences for failing to meet the expectations.

I think a big part of successful parenting/discipline is communicating your expectations to the child in an age-appropriate manner. If you want your child to not jump on your furniture, then let them know that the couch is for sitting on, they can jump on the tramp, or whatever. When we have to be out the door early in the morning, I will tell the children what time we need to leave, remind them to get their gear together before bed, and help them figure out what they need to do to be ready on time. If I need the older children to help with the younger children, I let them know exactly what I need them to do. I have one child who is an expert dawdler, so I will build in extra time (I don't tell her this, it is just my own sanity saver) for her, and set a visual timer to give her a reminder of how much time she has (a reminder that is not *me* nagging at her).

When life doesn't go as planned (which is frequently with 5 children, let me tell you), I try as much as possible to let natural consequences take over. Ex: if you don't get out of bed and get dressed on time, you will not have time for breakfast (or maybe only have time to grab a banana for the road). If you failed to practice your piano lesson, you will have to explain to your teacher why you don't know your lesson (or if it's really bad, you will have to call your teacher and explain why you won't be there for your lesson). If you decided to ignore mom's advice to wear your boots in the mud, you will have to clean your shoes. It is ok to let children fail and feel the consequences. We learn a lot from our mistakes, even though it is often not particularly pleasant. I don't mind allowing my children to struggle a little, or feel a little pain from their failures (even though I would rather they not have to deal with that). IMO, it is an important part of learning to live in the real world. Small doses of failure prepare them to handle life in a mature fashion.

If there isn't a direct natural consequence, sometimes I will assign an extra chore. If the offense had to do with a sibling, I might tell the offender to serve the other sibling in some manner (straighten their shoes, clear their place after dinner, etc.) My littlest ones often have major attitude issues over very little things. I'm sure you are well aware that it is impossible to reason with them at that point, lol. If they are completely out of control, I make them spend time in their rooms until they have calmed down enough to talk. Someone pointed out that with all their toys, it isn't really punishment to put them in their rooms. My response was that punishment isn't my goal; I just want them to calm down enough to communicate with me. I have found that often just getting on their level, listening to their concerns, validating their emotions and experiences goes a long way towards short-circuiting their tantrums (not always, of course). Sometimes, I just let them scream until they are done. Sometimes, I have to walk away in order to not physically harm them, because I have completely run out of patience.

I think the bottom line in "expecting" your child to do something is telling them. Repeatedly. Consistently. Frequently. And either finding some consequence to not meeting the expectation that you can both live with, or a positive thing for succeeding. (Carrot and stick, every child's currency is different.) Children need to know what is expected (they have very little control of their lives, and it helps them feel secure to know where their boundaries are), and what will happen if they don't do it. No one is perfect, but if you can give them control in small choices, let them know what you need, and respond appropriately when they fail, life will be much smoother for everyone. The other thing is that when they DO meet your expectations, let them know! We all like to know when we have succeeded, and children are no different. Children want to please their parents, and when they do the right thing, it is equally important to let them know (or more so) as disciplining them when they don't do the right thing. I don't think there is a miraculous way to get your children to do what you expect, it takes a lot of work to help them learn how to behave appropriately, and it is important to remember that there will be plenty of failures along the way.


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## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

I forgot to add in my long novel above, that I also really try to focus on positive statements: sit on the chair, instead of don't stand on the chair; or, walk in the house, instead of no running. I find that to be a lot more effective in directing my children's behaviour. I also had an epiphany one day about the way I speak to my children. It occurred to me that I was speaking to my children in an incredibly disrespectful manner, in a way that I would never address my husband, friends, parents, etc. I decided that if I wouldn't speak to another adult in that manner, why would I do that to my child, who is far more precious to me, and still learning about relationships? That understanding dramatically altered my perception of my interactions with my children. Like I said in my earlier post, I am not perfect (not even close), but I do attempt to approach discipline from a respectful standpoint. One day, my children will be grown up, and I would like to be their friend at that point.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gardenmommy*
> 
> I forgot to add in my long novel above, that I also really try to focus on positive statements: sit on the chair, instead of don't stand on the chair; or, walk in the house, instead of no running. I find that to be a lot more effective in directing my children's behaviour. I also had an epiphany one day about the way I speak to my children. It occurred to me that I was speaking to my children in an incredibly disrespectful manner, in a way that I would never address my husband, friends, parents, etc. I decided that if I wouldn't speak to another adult in that manner, why would I do that to my child, who is far more precious to me, and still learning about relationships? That understanding dramatically altered my perception of my interactions with my children. Like I said in my earlier post, I am not perfect (not even close), but I do attempt to approach discipline from a respectful standpoint. One day, my children will be grown up, and I would like to be their friend at that point.


Yes to all the above!!


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## doctoreleanor (Sep 13, 2012)

yes to all said

Over the years I realize that we rely so much on speech. the words we use. and the positive word does not seem to come easily. It takes some thinking to always come up with a positive way of saying it. Encouragement . That's the key. As you said it's over and over again but always with a new little something of encouragement. If toddlers especially did not have us to try out their new tricks, words, facial expressions on, what would they do. Also they are copying just what they see around them. So if they see negativity then they think that's it. Many of us send the little ones off to day care. There it's all about routine and regularity in a pleasant way. Then they come home. It's a great chance for them to see if they can get away with some trick they saw at daycare with out getting in trouble. We always fall for it (smile). It's not an easy task but as we relax and think about being positive in our speech suddenly you see it all going the way we would like it.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

The subconscious does not understand the words "not" or "try" . Young children make most, if not all, their decisions from the subconscious. Therefore, it is important to word things in the positive (avoiding the word "not"), so as to best communicate with young children. And they are more likely to do what we ask, as well. It could be a simple matter of not hearing the "not".


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Has it been mentioned yet that maybe your DC just needs to break down from time to time as some sort of release?


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
> 
> Has it been mentioned yet that maybe your DC just needs to break down from time to time as some sort of release?


I agree with this. I think it's really important to remember, especially when they're having fits about things that strike us as strange. I have one who does this: You can make a consequence of no dessert b/c he wasn't using nice table manners and he's fine. But send him to timeout for throwing toys (EVERY DAY), and sometimes he'll have a complete breakdown.

I also agree with eliminating the struggle and just laying out the expectations for her. This is how the morning is going to go; you can do your part, or you can see what happens when you don't. You don't come and eat breakfast when I say to? You don't get to eat. We don't take food in the car. You don't want to turn of the TV and get dressed? That's okay. I'll help turn off the TV, and you go get dressed. No? Well, we're leaving in five minutes, whether you're ready or not. Then gather up the clothes (or not) and put them in the car in whatever they're wearing, and off to school. Then IF the teachers feel like helping them get dressed, they can. Otherwise, it's school-in-PJs day. That has only happened once in my house. The boys were feeding off each other and decided that they could gang up on my. One insisted the whole way to school what fun it was, the other cried desperately. I sent the first into class in his PJs and he came home dressed in his clothes, saying, "I'm never doing THAT again." The other managed to get his clothes on so fast in the car that he was dressed by the time it was time to get out and get into his class. He never argued again either. And these are kids who argue about EVERYTHING, and still do. Until they see the consequences. The minor stuff that "only" gets a timeout is still an issue. But then, they're kids, not robots.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *swd12422*
> 
> I agree with this. I think it's really important to remember, especially when they're having fits about things that strike us as strange. I have one who does this: You can make a consequence of no dessert b/c he wasn't using nice table manners and he's fine. But send him to timeout for throwing toys (EVERY DAY), and sometimes he'll have a complete breakdown.
> 
> I also agree with eliminating the struggle and just laying out the expectations for her. This is how the morning is going to go; you can do your part, or you can see what happens when you don't. You don't come and eat breakfast when I say to? You don't get to eat. We don't take food in the car. You don't want to turn of the TV and get dressed? That's okay. I'll help turn off the TV, and you go get dressed. No? Well, we're leaving in five minutes, whether you're ready or not. Then gather up the clothes (or not) and put them in the car in whatever they're wearing, and off to school. Then IF the teachers feel like helping them get dressed, they can. Otherwise, it's school-in-PJs day. That has only happened once in my house. The boys were feeding off each other and decided that they could gang up on my. One insisted the whole way to school what fun it was, the other cried desperately. I sent the first into class in his PJs and he came home dressed in his clothes, saying, "I'm never doing THAT again." The other managed to get his clothes on so fast in the car that he was dressed by the time it was time to get out and get into his class. He never argued again either. And these are kids who argue about EVERYTHING, and still do. Until they see the consequences. The minor stuff that "only" gets a timeout is still an issue. But then, they're kids, not robots.


Why should the teachers get saddled with the consequences?!? It's not the teacher's fault!


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> Why should the teachers get saddled with the consequences?!? It's not the teacher's fault!


"Then IF the teachers feel like helping them get dressed, they can. Otherwise, it's school-in-PJs day."

What part of IF makes it the teachers' fault? If they don't have the time, desire, or ability to get the clothes on the kids, then they don't have to. I don't really care. And the only reason I even provided clothing for them to change into was so that the CHILD could dress himself when he felt like it. And he felt like it. And did it all himself. So the teachers didn't have to do anything. I let them know it was more than okay with me if I picked him up and he was still in his jammies. It was HIS choice. Not mine, not the teachers'. It's not even really a consequence. It's, "It's time to get dressed if you want to be wearing clothes when we leave. No? Okay. Your choice, but we're leaving in 5 minutes." I don't care what they do. I have a meeting I'm not going to be late for just b/c a child has his own agenda. He can have it on his own terms, just as I have mine.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I posted this and thought the OP may want to read the article: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1382709/there-is-not-always-a-fix-for-the-difficult-child


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

I read the article, and it got me thinking. From the child's perspective, it's the mother being difficult. More accurately, it is a difficult relationship. Like the person who is nails on a chalkboard for you, but it the best friend of a good friend of yours. You wonder, "How can that be?" But it is. Some personalities chafe. Others mesh. Is there blame? I don't think so.


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## cynthiamoon (Nov 29, 2009)

::taking notes::


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## ilovemygirl (Sep 8, 2008)

I haven't read the replies so I apologize if I'm repeating.

I am exactly that parent who says that she expects certain things and doesn't give choices. I will admit that I seem to be blessed with a child who was born with a fairly calm and agreeable personality. I'm no expert but this is what I do/did ...

I never ever bribe.

DD does things because she wants to, she has been taught it's the right thing to do, or has been taught it's something that just needs to be done. I think it's a horrible precedent to set that you should only do something because you are rewarded. I believe it encourages selfishness. Also, at some point, won't we run out of reasonable things to offer? As kids get older a cookie isn't going to cut it anymore.

I do encourage good behavior. I say positive things for positive actions like -that was so nice of you for helping your friend or setting the table - and I do say thank you often for helpful things done.

I never ever hit, do not use my size over her or threaten/scare her with unreasonable consequences like permanent loss of toys she really loves. To me there's a big difference between sit and calm down for five minutes and do what I say or I'll throw your lovey away.

I never ever pose something as a question or choice if it is not one.

Unless there is a choice, I do not present it as one. If need her to get dressed - I say, please get dressed. If I need her to brush her teeth, I say, please brush your teeth. There is no discussion, there is no fighting, no negotiating. If she threw a tantrum, I would just walk away. If she was truly upset, I would recognize her feelings, let her know I understood she was frustrated and would give a simple explanation as to why it needed to be done and then say again, please do so and so.

On the flip side of this, I give choices that are actually available as often as possible. Do you want this instead of that for lunch? This game or this book? Especially when she was little, I tried really hard to find ways to make her feel like she had some say in things.

I'm trying to figure out the right way to word this. I am not afraid to impose my beliefs on my child. I've heard a lot of talk in AP circles about not influencing your children and letting them learn everything on their own so they can be their own person, not forcing your views of the world on them, never make them feel guilty, etc. I don't believe in that. I think there are certain things that are just completely unacceptable. They are just bad things to do, you should feel badly when you do them and I think even young children can understand that. Like hurting others, physically or emotionally. I wouldn't say I would shame a child but I think a child (or anyone for that matter) should feel badly when they've hurt someone or broken a major rule. It's actually kind of bizarre to me why anyone wouldn't want that reaction. I don't mean to dwell and feel awful to the point of depression but to instill a value system in children that others rights and feelings are just as valid as their own and need to be respected at all times.

I think the biggest thing for me though is mutual respect. I truly believe in my heart that even though I can be firm with rules and can achieve a desired outcome just by a look sometimes, that dd behaves the way she does because I always try my best to be respectful of her. I expect her not to hit so I never hit, I expect her not to yell at me, so I try my hardest to never raise my voice at her. If I do, I admit I am wrong and I give a real apology. She has a good relationship with dh but he does not talk to her the same way I do and I notice a big difference in how she responds to him. When they disagree about something, she uses a tone she would never use with me.

Now that she's six there is a lot more give and take in our relationship. I want her to be patient and wait nicely when I need to finish something so if she asks me for time to finish a game or something before we go out I try my hardest to accommodate that. I let her know how much her feelings matter to me. She has a lot more control over her free time now. She knows the outer limits of things she should and shouldn't be doing and I trust her to act within those so she doesn't feel micromanaged or like she has no choices. I go out of my way to find things she will enjoy and take her to places she will find interesting, etc. I homeschool -so we are together all the time- and we can go days, maybe even a week or so without there being an issue between us.

Wow... I didn't mean to go on like that. I'm pregnant and have insomnia!


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## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ilovemygirl*
> 
> I haven't read the replies so I apologize if I'm repeating.
> 
> ...


Very nicely said.


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## Triniity (Jul 15, 2007)

didn't read every post, so sorry if there are repititions..

first, my two older kids have adhd, that comes, apparently with a good dose of oppositional behaviour. i never wanted to walk the consequences and punishment path, but sometimes just don't have another way









we had a situation like taht were i could not get ds dressed, but had too. i took him with me without cloth, and it was horrible, he was crying so badly. at the preschool i asked him if he was ready to get dressed, and he was, so, he got dressed. But he was still crying and being ashamed, and I did not like this approach at all. There was no other option though, so I explained that to him, and kissed him and made up with him, and left.

In general we try to do "democratic parenting" (thomas gordon way) and so afterwards we had a conference about morning routines, and what to do about this dressing problem. We came to an agreement:

1. we choose the stuff in the evening. He can choose what he wants to wear.

2. If he fails to get his stuff ready, he can ask for help, and a parent will get him things.

3. If he forgets to choose his clothing, and only remembers in the morning, Mom or Dad are going to choose, and he has to put the clothing on

He agreed and signed it. No problems since. (he is four btw) at least not with dressing  but the undressed to preschool was pretty traumatic for him.

in my experience, it is very, very important to not get into power struggles with these strong willed kids. they win 

Oh, and P.S.: I am one of these alpha personalities. If I say: Everybody listen to me! everybody does. Except my kids. So, that doesn't help. They are alpha personalities, too


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