# Consent Based Parenting/ TCS



## DharmaDisciple (Feb 7, 2002)

Are there any parents here who do consent based parenting? Where you try to find a solution to everyone's need based on a win-win, not a compromise, not enforcing your own boundaries? I really want to talk with moms who this works for.

I have just got back from a Home educators festival where a lot of the children are 'unschooled'. I am unsure of peoples parenting styles, but it seemed that a lot left their kids to it (whereas consent based parenting is about being very involved with your children and offering your opinions on things that your child is free to take up/reject).

Here is what I saw at this festival:
-Toddlers to young children - 6yrs left to their own devices, allowed to wander off anywhere without parents knowing where they were (1, 800 people at this festival).
-Teens left to it, to say Hi to parents at the begining of the day and that was it. Parents didn't know where they were or even where they were sleeping.
-Angry teens, dressed in back, dyed hair seemed to be the norm.
-Every night getting drunk, getting stoned, throwing up, taking hallucinagenic drugs, making loads of noise. (Last night I heard a girl screaming how 'it will be all your fault when I kill myself'- I have no idea where her parents were).

Is this where TCS/consent based parenting sends your child?

I ask because it is something I want to do more and more, but this makes me unsure, seeing these children behave like this. Other things that shock me I have heard of: allowing your 5yr old, and 9 yr old watch a horror/murder movie (18 rated) and then them having nighmares about it, with the 5 yr old now fainting at the sight of blood on anyone.

I am so confused now which way to go with this whole parenting thing. How do I know which way is right?


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Here's the way I look at things...

I don't ever take just ONE thing and make it my complete philosophy on anything, so I refuse to do that with parenting!! Even being a christian, while I choose to believe the Bible as my *main* source for spiritual guidence etc...I still really get a lot from the teachings of Buddha, and from jewish mysticism, and from the koran etc and so on... (not wanting to veer off into religion, just using an example)...

That is the same as I approach parenting (or most things)... I feel one gets into trouble when they take ONE thing and base their ENTIRE WHOLE philosophy to EVERYTHING in it... like I call myself an *ap* parent, because I subscribe to almost everything that is ap...but I might not do *everything*...like say my baby doesn't care to be in a sling? Does it make me less ap? I don't think so...

Or I consider myself to be very into NFL... we eat whole foods, use almost all organic, natural products, recycle, are very concious of conserving energy and resources...but we will also probably use disposable diapers for a short while (due to several reasons)...does that *automatically* disqualify me from the nfl club? I would hope not...

Anyway, about TCS... I LOVE the concept of that, for most things. I LOVE the concept of unschooling and taking children seriously, and things of that nature and I plan to employ a lot of the philosophies and methods and all that--so I will probably say "I practice tcs" because it will most closely match what I identify with and how I parent.. but I, like you, am not too cool with allowing say, an 8 year old to watch a bloody, gory, violent film because I "don't want to stifle their desires due to my own hang-ups" or whatever---

So in conclusion...don't worry about labels... yeah, we all put labels on eachother and on ourselves and even I am guilty of this, because as I said, I will place a familiar label on myself based on things I most closely resemble or identify with, but that doesn't mean I follow every single guideline set to the tee..set in stone... you have to modify based on what works for you, your child, your family, your conscience...etc...

As far as the conference thing you were talking about... I dunno, as I wasn't there, but it doesn't sound a lot like TCS to me...kind of like it doesn't sound very *christian* to me when people like, bomb abortion clinics (just to be painfully clear I DO NOT AT ALL CONDONE THAT IN ANY WAY!!!) ....it is taking a label and manipulating it for your own agenda---thus giving the name...a bad name... know what I mean???

Good luck to you and take care!


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Last I knew the concept of TCS had basically been banned from MDC (though there was a tribe at one point).


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Didn't know that...

Why would it be banned I wonder? It employs a lot of GD and unschooling *concepts*...

See though, I don't see TCS as just allowing kids to wantonly do whatever they want, whenever they want all the time whether it be detremental to their safety (emotionally or physically)... to people who hold that outlook of it, I imagine it *might* be banned here...

*shrugs* I was just responding to a post..


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
Didn't know that...

Why would it be banned I wonder? It employs a lot of GD and unschooling *concepts*...

See though, I don't see TCS as just allowing kids to wantonly do whatever they want, whenever they want all the time whether it be detremental to their safety (emotionally or physically)... to people who hold that outlook of it, I imagine it *might* be banned here...

*shrugs* I was just responding to a post..

I am NOT trying to shut this conversation down AT ALL. Please proceed, I would, in fact, love to discuss TCS.

I just faintly remember constant fighting over the matter and it was basically put on hold. For all I know it is fair game again. I just wanted to warn people that the thread *may* be shut down.


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## mamakay (Apr 8, 2005)

Toddlers wandering off with the parents having no idea where they were?
Woah.
I really love the concept of TCS (why would it be banned?) but I don't see it having anything to do with not supervising children.
The Goth thing is just a trend now, and I don't think it signifies anything in and of itself.
Teens openly doing drugs like that is quite odd, though.
At a parenting convention?
Weird....


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## robin-ma (Dec 1, 2001)

Dear Mand, I agree with the other posts, that labels are often misleading. It sounds like you might be needing to find like-minded parents and that this festival didn't meet that need. I too have a strong need to meet other parents who take their children seriously, but who also give their children their opinions, guidance and care. Sometimes, it is hard to find a perfect match. I've just made a ton of effort to meet people in our city and have made some wonderful connections. It takes so much work to meet new people! But, since it is so important to me to meet people who relish in parenting, it is worth the time.

As far as whether that festival was a good example of TCS style, I don't believe that it is, based on the examples you gave. What you saw sounds more like what TCS calls laissez-faire parenting--not TCS--leaving the child to do whatever without providing guidance, advice and input) Do you know about the TCS website and e-mail list? The website is
http://takingchildrenseriously.com/

I'm so glad to hear about other parents wanting to take their children seriously!


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mand*
Are there any parents here who do consent based parenting? Where you try to find a solution to everyone's need based on a win-win, not a compromise, not enforcing your own boundaries? I really want to talk with moms who this works for.

This would be my family pretty much, only I will say that for us compromise isn't a bad thing.

Quote:

I have just got back from a Home educators festival where a lot of the children are 'unschooled'. I am unsure of peoples parenting styles, but it seemed that a lot left their kids to it (whereas consent based parenting is about being very involved with your children and offering your opinions on things that your child is free to take up/reject).
My family totally unschools







Often we just "leave our kids to it" too it if I am understanding you correctly. We let them be, and do pretty much their own thing in general. We are very involved with them in the larger day to day sense though.

Quote:

Here is what I saw at this festival:
-Toddlers to young children - 6yrs left to their own devices, allowed to wander off anywhere without parents knowing where they were (1, 800 people at this festival).
-Teens left to it, to say Hi to parents at the begining of the day and that was it. Parents didn't know where they were or even where they were sleeping.
-Angry teens, dressed in back, dyed hair seemed to be the norm.
-Every night getting drunk, getting stoned, throwing up, taking hallucinagenic drugs, making loads of noise. (Last night I heard a girl screaming how 'it will be all your fault when I kill myself'- I have no idea where her parents were).
 I guess something that pops to mind is that all kinds of people homeschool and unschool. Many different parenting types chose not to put their kids in school. There will be people who are very controlling/strict with their kids, people who are not, and tons of kinds in the middle and beyond. We cannot know what is going on in each family or individuals life based on just superficial observation. (Not trying to say that is what you are doing, just sharing my .02)

I'm not sure about the rest except to say that some people are really comfortable with their kids wandering more than others? For the record my kids have hair dyed a variety of colors whenever they choose to, and my son prefers to wear black. These things just aren't an issue to some. Perhaps many of the people knew each other and had a sense of security about their kids being without them?

Quote:

Is this where TCS/consent based parenting sends your child?
 Because it's so individual and circumstances vary widely, I wouldn't say it sends them either there or elsewhere always. TCS can go any number of ways just like anything else can really.

Quote:

I ask because it is something I want to do more and more, but this makes me unsure, seeing these children behave like this. Other things that shock me I have heard of: allowing your 5yr old, and 9 yr old watch a horror/murder movie (18 rated) and then them having nighmares about it, with the 5 yr old now fainting at the sight of blood on anyone.
 My children at the ages of 5 and 9 would have been totally free to watch a murder-horror movie if that is what they would have wanted to do. We offered guidance, opinions, and any help they might need with any of that but the end decision would have been there own to make. If, after watching such a movie, my 9 year old had nightmares I would have comforted her and discussed what may have lead to them (though IMO nightmares happen with or without scary movies). If my 5 yr old was terrified of blood I would talk a bit about how we all have blood and that it's a very good thing. Maybe we'd investigate the subject of blood further, and maybe he'd be wanting to put off scary movies until a later date. There would be a variety of options.

Quote:

I am so confused now which way to go with this whole parenting thing. How do I know which way is right?
Perhaps there will be more than one "right" way for your family? I would just take it slow and do what feels right for you & your children. Learn, read, experiment. Bottom line here is that TCS doesn't mean not being involved with your kids...I tend to see it as the opposite being very involved but not controlling.







I hope this helped you a bit. We've been really busy today and I am a little


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## Silliest (Apr 4, 2004)

Like you said, you don't know anything about those families.

Take it easy and follow your heart.


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

If you're doing this in the right way for your family then you aren't going to run into these types of issues. Obviously, these families have made choices with which they feel comfortable -- or, at least, they believe they feel comfortable with. Based on the win-win concept your family won't run into these situations because it could never be a win scenario for you. Make sense?

Also, I truly sense, from experience, that when you do this right from the beginning, lots of behavior issues just never come up.

Oh, and TCS is not banned here. There were issues, about three or more years ago, with TCS posters making every single GD thread a discussion about TCS. So Cynthia created threads designated to the topic. Just check the GD archives.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

:


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PM*
Oh, and TCS is not banned here. There were issues, about three or more years ago, with TCS posters making every single GD thread a discussion about TCS. So Cynthia created threads designated to the topic. Just check the GD archives.

Thanks!


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

when you do this right from the beginning, lots of behavior issues just never come up.
I'd like to change that to: "issues just never come up" or they are perceived in completely different ways by a TCS parent than by an authoritarian parent, for example. TCS is not just a method, it is a way of thinking. And it's a huge leap for most people. Few parents who come from the standpoint of "I need to prevent my child from becoming an unruly teenager" or "my child does this to manipulate me" or "I want my child to be this or that" or "society won't accept my child" will succeed with TCS.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I don't think children under 6 wandering off my themselves with hundreds of people is good parenting or TCS parenting. OTOH, my 12 year old often dresses in balck and dyes her hair, and at an event like this, it wouldn't be unsuaul for her to say good-bye in the morning and for me not to see her for 24 hours. We would touch base via cell phone, though, and I would be able to get in touch with her that way. We've had events at our farm where I didn't know where she ending up sleeping...

I know kids raised in much the same way who are much older than Rain, 19 or 20, and I've never seen any drugs or alcohol at their get-togethers (mostly NBSTCers, btw), although I know that some of them have used at times. They probably occasionally have screaming fighst with their parents, too... but none of it seems to be the norm.

If my kid said she wanted to watch a movie that I thought would scare her, I would try to give her the information she needed to make a good decicion. I would research the movie, and give her an idea of what kind of scnes she might see (I did this before Rain watched American History X recently). I might try to find some more mild movies from the same genre and rent them first, and I'd definitely try to do this at home rather than in the theater, so we could pause or fast forward. I might also watch it first, so that I could warn her when a bad part was coming up.

Rain has watched a lot of movies with her hands poised two inches from her eyes, ready to cover, and my job was to tell her when that part was over.

Dar


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## mamasadie (May 13, 2005)

Quote:

NBSTCers,
What does this acronym stand for?


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## vermonttaylors (May 17, 2005)

Hi ladies, I'm a newbie. What does TCS stand for? I blush at my own ignorance!









Cheers!
April - mama to the awesome Kai - b.12/30/03 a.9/2/04
waiting for a referral for a baby girl
Vermont


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

TCS is Taking Children Seriously: http://www.takingchildrenseriously.com

NBTSC is Not Back to School Camp, a camp for unschooled teens: www.nbtsc.org

Dar


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## Silliest (Apr 4, 2004)

TCS is "taking children seriously"
NCP is "non coercive parenting"
NBSTC is a total mystery to me


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

When my oldest was my only, and a toddler, TCS really shook up my ideas about parenting in a good way I was challenged to really stretch my ideas about respecting children, to a whole new level.

It was amazing how many things could be worked out through consensus even with a small child. Now, all these years later and bigger family, it is my first choice for problem-solving, even when it takes a LOT longer, makes us late, tires us out. I think it's essential to use consensus as a family tool whenever possible, because it strengthens our connection so much more than using parental power.

That said, we are not just one or two people. We are 5 busy, sometimes moody, sometimes ill, sometimes pregnant, sometimes tantrumy, allergic or otherwise inflexible people whose needs compete on a daily basis. We've found that everyone has a better overall sense of emotional safety when some limits are set. I hesitate to say this because I hear the "kids like boundaries" rationale used for so many absurd rules and rigid schedules. It will suffice to say that we use our parental power when not using it has consistently and steadily made a child MORE unhappy.

Is it possible that sticking with noncoersion would have eventually worked out? hey, maybe. We weren't willing to endure the unhappiness and suffering of our kids long enough to see.

anyway, I think the TCS ideas are very worth exploring.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

I know it would likely go against TCS philosophy for me to say that you can "take what works and leave the rest", like LLL. I mean, you can't *really* take children seriously while still trying to control them in some ways. But- my point, if I have one







, is that for me, going into TCS one step at a time has been better than forging ahead fully as soon as I realized it seemed like way to go to me.

I have 5, 3 and 1 year olds, I was introduced to TCS here over a year ago now. There were some things I was already pretty TCS about, like food, clothes, etc. Others I struggle with- like unlimited TV. I figure doing what I can manage and trying to work more and more TCS into our lives is good. It surely wouldn't be perfect from a hard-core TCS POV, but- it keeps me on the right track, where I fear trying to go all the way right away with TCS would've scared off my husband and quite possibly driven me insane starting from where I was (I can see how it would be much easier with one child who is very young to adopt this philosophy fully and immediately).

So- my advice- work on questioning your "rules", work on respecting your child, and give yourself a break on finding the "perfect" way of doing things, most of us, IMO, grow into these things.

PS- what you saw with toddlers off without their parents doesn't seem a bit TCS to me either, that just seems neglectful, which, unfortunately, some neglectful parents use the TCS lable to justify what they do, IMO TCS is a lot more work, not the neglect you saw.


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## Jordansmommy (May 26, 2004)

So while we're on the topic of TCS, at what age can you start letting them make their own decisions? I know if it were up to my daughter she'd be under the sink drinking poison and falling down several flights of stairs. The only rules we have at home right now are safety related - basically things that can't be avoided by babyproofing.


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## Mommay (Jul 29, 2004)

This is all new to me and intriguing. I'll be reading up on this right away. But though I like the child-centered point of view, I am getting the impression that it is too "lax". The description of the festival makes me shudder. I don't really believe that children or anybody has to try everything. For instance, I never used drugs and I am perfectly happy. I've never tried S & M, etc. The idea that a young child is allowed to watch a scary movie seems irresponsible to me. Just cause it exists doesn't mean it should be experienced. Isn't that the parents' job to decipher?

I'm probably missing something, but I felt compelled to give my response. But as I said, I don't know much about this philosophy, so sorry if I'm misconstruing it.


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

it would probably help to start out by reading from those links someone pasted in up in the thread somewhere - then you'd understand the TCS a little better. Toddlers running loose in public is NOT in line with the tcs philosophy, I think.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I have really liked reading about TCS, though I know I'm not a TCSer because I do coerce her in some ways. But reading about it has changed my outlook in a good way. My daughter is a full member of our family, as important as my husband and I are, and her wants and needs are just as important as ours. I didn't look at it that way before; I thought of her as on a different level and kind of along for the ride. An example of how it's changed my perspective: we went to the mall to ride on the carousel. She wanted to ride on the carousel *and* have a cookie. My initial reaction was that she should have to choose between the carousel and the cookie. Then (thanks to reading about TCS) I thought again. Both were inexpensive and I had money for them. If it were me and I wanted two inexpensive things, I'd get both. I'm positive my husband would as well. So why would I make her choose between the two other than to exert my power and deny her one or the other? She got both and nothing bad happened as a result.

I think it's worth reading about but I don't find myself to be able to allow her to control every aspect of her life, and I don't always find mutually acceptable solutions when problems come up, although I do try.


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## mamasadie (May 13, 2005)

I found TCS very interesting. It really resounds with me on a lot of levels. However, I do think that when it comes to safety issues, if no consensus can be reached, I would be comfortable with coercion to enforce my viewpoint and keep my child safe. But as a whole, I really would rather do things the TCS way. Also, I am unsure of how it applies to very young toddlers who don't have the verbal skills for the kind of conflict negotiation that TCS calls for.


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## Bleu (Mar 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamasadie*
... I am unsure of how it applies to very young toddlers who don't have the verbal skills for the kind of conflict negotiation that TCS calls for.









Mamasadie, from what I understand of TCS (I don't practice it, but I am influenced by it) the parent has to be really creative and patient by offering solutions (that are okay with the parents) until the non-verbal toddler chooses one that is agreeable to them also. Really, kind of like the checklist you go through with a baby -- hungry? wet? cold? hot? tired? needs comfort? more stimulation? less stimulation? etc.

For example, a toddler resisting their seatbelt could lead to offering a toy to play with while in the seat, letting the child help with the straps, offering food or a sippy cup to have while in the car seat, singing some special songs, or postponing the trip. Or probably lots of other creative things I haven't thought of!


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## moonshine (Dec 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bleu*
Mamasadie, from what I understand of TCS (I don't practice it, but I am influenced by it) the parent has to be really creative and patient by offering solutions (that are okay with the parents) until the non-verbal toddler chooses one that is agreeable to them also. Really, kind of like the checklist you go through with a baby -- hungry? wet? cold? hot? tired? needs comfort? more stimulation? less stimulation? etc.

For example, a toddler resisting their seatbelt could lead to offering a toy to play with while in the seat, letting the child help with the straps, offering food or a sippy cup to have while in the car seat, singing some special songs, or postponing the trip. Or probably lots of other creative things I haven't thought of!

Noy trying to pick, but this is TCS? I thought this is just trying to get through the day with a toddler with the least amount of aggrevation for all! :LOL

I do this and I am drawn to TCS, although I haven't read any more than what I have found at MDC, so maybe that is what it is, but I wouldn't know how else to deal with a toddler w/o a lot of crying if you don't do things this way!! (As my toddler stands next to me crying because she wants me to get off the computer, so I guess I will







)


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonshine*
Noy trying to pick, but this is TCS? I thought this is just trying to get through the day with a toddler with the least amount of aggrevation for all! :LOL

I do this and I am drawn to TCS, although I haven't read any more than what I have found at MDC, so maybe that is what it is, but I wouldn't know how else to deal with a toddler w/o a lot of crying if you don't do things this way!! (As my toddler stands next to me crying because she wants me to get off the computer, so I guess I will







)


I think it is. It is exactly what i personally could never do because I would have been absolutely misearable and thus so would have my kids if I had gone through these machinations (which they were in my personal view.)

My kids rearely cried though about this stuff. I "did it" by projecting a "this is what has to be done, sorry" attitude. My "sorry" was real in that I tried to project true sympathy, but it wasn't going to change anything and we were not going to spend alot of time on the whole thing.

For me TCS just wasn't in keeping with my personal view of children and their development nor my personal style and attitude to life.

I think that if you are drawn to it, *and you are happy doing it*, it can be a wonderful thing for most children. However I have seen some kids a little at loose ends with this style of parenting. I was lucky in that my style of parenting seemed to fit my children well, in that like me they don't find rules and some authority to be a big problem.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonshine*
Noy trying to pick, but this is TCS? I thought this is just trying to get through the day with a toddler with the least amount of aggrevation for all! :LOL

See, that's exactly what TCS means to me-- trying to get through your days with the least amount of aggravation for all.









Quote:

I do this and I am drawn to TCS, although I haven't read any more than what I have found at MDC, so maybe that is what it is, but I wouldn't know how else to deal with a toddler w/o a lot of crying if you don't do things this way!! (As my toddler stands next to me crying because she wants me to get off the computer, so I guess I will







)
The idea behind TCS, for me, is that you eliminate arbitrary and unnecessary rules in order to minimize conflict. Some rules are necessary; carseats, for example, are non-negotiable in my family. A lot of people think that TCS means no rules at all; nothing could be further from the truth. The fact is, everyone must operate according to certain rules in order to participate in society. Do you walk up to strangers and punch them in the nose because they are wearing the same t-shirt that you are? Of course not; because there's a rule against behaving that way. The point of TCS is not to eliminate all rules, but to impart to children the rules that they'll actually need when they're dealing with other people. They need to know that it's not considered reasonable to stand on a table in the middle of the food court at the mall and dance in your underwear. They need to know that if they throw things at waiters, the waiters won't want to serve them. They need to know that if they stay up until 1 am, they might have a hard time waking up to get to their dance class at 7, and they might be tired and not give their best performance. There are loads of rules that we as adults take for granted in this world, and those are the things our children need to learn.

We eliminate _unnecessary_ rules. We don't censor television, but we don't sit our two year old son down in front of violent movies. He let us know, in no uncertain terms, that he couldn't handle it and didn't want to when he was 13 months old (maybe less?). We prevent BooBah from eating things which are poisonous, but if she wants to take a bite out of a sheet of paper we don't argue with her about it. If BeanBean wants to walk, rather than be in a stroller, we hold his hand in parking lots and anywhere that he could go too far out of sight. If he can't hold hands, we talk about it. I tell him that I have to keep him safe because I love him, and he can either walk with us or ride in the stroller; he usually elects to hold onto the stroller unless he's tired.

There are many many things you can do to minimize conflict, even with nonverbal children. In fact, I would say that the "rules" of attachment parenting in the early days are absolutely TCS; what could be more TCS than allowing your child to nurse when they ask for it, instead of waiting until a schedule says it's time? If your baby needs to be cuddled to sleep at night, and you sleep with them, that's AP and TCS; if your baby needs space to sleep well and you put them in a crib, that's also AP and TCS.

As to the conference-- I'm in agreement with many of the previous posters. That sounds much more like lassaiz-faire parenting to me than TCS, because one key element of TCS is missing. When you are Taking Children Seriously, you have to take _yourself_ seriously as well. TCS is about treating your children as though they are equal to you, not as though they are above you.


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## mamasadie (May 13, 2005)

I can see the parallels and similarities between AP and TCS in many ways, in the sense that the needs (if not the wants) of the child must be respected and the parents have a responsibility to find out what they are and do everything they can to meet them.

But the whole thing about non-negotiable rules is still a bit confusing to me. I thought the whole point of TCS is that are *no* non-negotiables. That you can only persuade a child to sit in a carseat, not make it an absolute rule, KWIM? I know a lot of anarchist sites are big on TCS as a parenting philosophy, and they certainly don't support the idea of any necessary rules.







That is why I have never been 100% about TCS. IMO, there are things like carseats, etc. that I have no problem being 'coercive' about. I would certainly try to make it comfortable for my child, and respect and validate their feelings about not wanting to sit there, or perhaps find alternate transportation if possible, but in the end, if we have to ride in a car and leave right then, I am just going to make it happen. Am I misunderstanding them?


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## JenniferH (Feb 24, 2005)

There are some things that children have to learn by being taught, and some by experience. There are lots of things I wouldn't want her to learn the hard way, KWIM?

I wouldn't, for instance, want my child to learn about being hit by a car by experience. Consequently, I made a rule that she is not to run into the street. She may walk across the street after looking to make sure no cars are coming and then quickly and calmly walk across (I am usually nearby or right behind her). I prefer if she is walking beside me or holding my hand. I taught her about traffic safety so she wouldn't get killed or seriously injured. The rules I do have are more in concern for her safety than they are for my need to control her.

I respect the fact that she may have to cross the street or ride her bike alone (ie without me standing outside watching for traffic) AT SOME POINT, but until her judgment and reasoning mature she just has to rely on what I say is safe and what isn't. There hasn't yet been an occasion where she needed to go across the street to a friend's house or to retrieve a ball that she didn't ask me for help or ask permission to do it.

This is just one example of things she isn't allowed to do at all or without permission or assistance (I won't bore you with my list here unless you want to see it). I don't think I'm being a bad parent by keeping her safe and teaching her about unsafe behaviors and actions.

As she gets older she will be given more freedom to make decisions that affect her overall safety and well being. I *do* take her seriously as a human being, but I *don't* think she can make a rational, safe decision about *everything* until she's a little older.

Even some adults are incapable of that.


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## mamasadie (May 13, 2005)

Quote:

As she gets older she will be given more freedom to make decisions that affect her overall safety and well being. I do take her seriously as a human being, but I don't think she can make a rational, safe decision about everything until she's a little older.

Even some adults are incapable of that
Yeah, ditto. I believe very much in taking my child seriously. But I don't think recognizing that she is limited in her understanding, maturity, logic, and impulse control--and tailoring her environment as a recognition of these limitations--is taking her less seriously as a person.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

We don't do TCS but I wanted to comment on the todlers running around unsupervised.

perhaps the toddlers didn't want to be with thier mamas while fun stuff was going on elsewhere. the mamas decided that was fine. TCS so far. and everythingi s OK so far. and not at all unreasonable. what self respecting 2 year old would want to sit in conference sessions all day. But the moms decided that an agreeable solution was to set thier toddler free to roam without supervision. while still TCS in the respect that both parties thought the deal agreeable it doesn't negate the laziness of the mom deciding that was an ageeable to both parties. It doesn't matter if you let your toddler wonder or if you drive them off with a whip, not properly supervising your toddler (especially in a large crowd - i mean that is equally to turning your three year old lose in the mall and not checking in until a long day of shopping was over.) is neglect and that was a poor choice. Another option the moms had was to either go with thier child and skip the conference until toddler decided she was agreeable to sit in on a session or two or convince thier toddler that they really would enjoy sitting quietly next to mom. I don't personally see a solution to this so i would have had to bring a "responsible playmate (babysitter)" to the conference so my children could enjoy the childrens activities thier way and I could do what i came for.. That way i could have listen at the seminars and my kids could have run somewhat amuck. Since I was paying the sitter kids could be in the drivers seat and do what they wanted within reason (saftey and good manners).

I don't think finding common ground means neglecting toddlers (or a child of any age not old enough or responsible enough to be alone and safe) but sometimes it means either planning way ahead or being willing to give up what you want to do.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamasadie*
But the whole thing about non-negotiable rules is still a bit confusing to me. I thought the whole point of TCS is that are *no* non-negotiables. That you can only persuade a child to sit in a carseat, not make it an absolute rule, KWIM? I know a lot of anarchist sites are big on TCS as a parenting philosophy, and they certainly don't support the idea of any necessary rules.







That is why I have never been 100% about TCS. IMO, there are things like carseats, etc. that I have no problem being 'coercive' about. I would certainly try to make it comfortable for my child, and respect and validate their feelings about not wanting to sit there, or perhaps find alternate transportation if possible, but in the end, if we have to ride in a car and leave right then, I am just going to make it happen. Am I misunderstanding them?

The point is to minimize coercion, but the fact is that sometimes the consequences of disobeying a rule are more coercive than the rule itself, as with carseats. In my opinion, TCS is first and foremost a _parenting_ philosophy, meaning that you have to actively parent. It does require that you think before you act, but you must still act. In the case of a child who is too young/immature to fully grasp the consequences of their actions/inactions, you must make the safest decision for them. If your toddler screams in the carseat, that doesn't mean that you should let them out; getting thrown from a moving vehicle in an accident will lead to far more coercion than keeping them buckled up.

I really think that people who claim to be TCS and then don't "coerce" their children into wearing seatbelts or sitting in carseats are misunderstanding the philosophy. Kids have to learn that there are laws and that the laws are, in general, designed to keep us all safe. (Not all of them, but this is neither the time nor place for that discussion.) The carseat rule isn't really mine-- it's a state law. I could be fined or even arrested for violating it. If I'm put in jail, my son will be even more unhappy than he would be if he was miserable in his carseat (which he isn't generally). It would take him much longer to get what he wanted/needed, and thus prove to be a more coercive situation than being strapped in. See what I mean?


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## greensmile (May 19, 2002)

I remember the heated TCS debates of yore... Anyways I believe in treating children with respect, which sometimes includes using our learned judgement to avoid damage to their body (no soda) or their psyche(no violent movie). There is a reason babies don't just crawl off at birth to do their thing. That said I do believe in trying to really hear and understand where my kids are coming from (compassion) so I can assist them in meeting their needs.

Philosophically a question I've had is this : Is it not coercion to offer a child (of "impressionable" youth) a treat to perform an adult desired outcome? Although the child ceases to protest, I believe we have overcome their will by manipulation, and they may fall for it due to their developmental naivete. Is it not better to elucidate to the child the factors in our judgement so they may come to understand and accept as their own will to do the desired outcome. This seems to be bringing them into alignment rather than fooling them. My kids happily do many things other children would protest because it is the right thing to do, which will create the greatest happiness in the world. In short,I try to instill intrinsic as opposed to extrinsic motivation in them.


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## mamasadie (May 13, 2005)

Rynna, that explains it very well.







Thank you. I pretty much totally agree with what you said, and I think I understand and respect TCS more now.









Quote:

Philosophically a question I've had is this : Is it not coercion to offer a child (of "impressionable" youth) a treat to perform an adult desired outcome? Although the child ceases to protest, I believe we have overcome their will by manipulation, and they may fall for it due to their developmental naivete. Is it not better to elucidate to the child the factors in our judgement so they may come to understand and accept as their own will to do the desired outcome. This seems to be bringing them into alignment rather than fooling them. My kids happily do many things other children would protest because it is the right thing to do, which will create the greatest happiness in the world. In short,I try to instill intrinsic as opposed to extrinsic motivation in them
ITA.







I am reading 'Unconditional Parenting' right now, and what you are saying is a really big point that Kohn is making as well. Offering treats or rewards for desired performance is manipulative, and he also talks a lot about intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation.


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greensmile*
Philosophically a question I've had is this : Is it not coercion to offer a child (of "impressionable" youth) a treat to perform an adult desired outcome? Although the child ceases to protest, I believe we have overcome their will by manipulation, and they may fall for it due to their developmental naivete. Is it not better to elucidate to the child the factors in our judgement so they may come to understand and accept as their own will to do the desired outcome. This seems to be bringing them into alignment rather than fooling them. My kids happily do many things other children would protest because it is the right thing to do, which will create the greatest happiness in the world. In short,I try to instill intrinsic as opposed to extrinsic motivation in them.









of coures bribes are coercion.

ITA with the above paragraph. I think sometimes parents (myself included) are amazed at how much TIME it takes to do this, though. Now that my kids are a little older, we can do this during a family meeting. When they were younger 3-6 age, we'd sometimes have to really drop everything for these long discussions. I know some people consider that the child taking advantage, but honestly, I thought it was so good for all of us.

I think even most adults don't give each other the time it takes to fully understand the reasoning of each other. It takes even more time and skill to convey our reasons to our kids. So much easier to just "lay down the law." (which we've been known to do, from time to time







: )

anyway, I just wanted to say - I think you hit the nail on the head, and good job mamas who are working hard at this stuff.


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## cozymama (Apr 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*

The idea behind TCS, for me, is that you eliminate arbitrary and unnecessary rules in order to minimize conflict.

There are many many things you can do to minimize conflict, even with nonverbal children. In fact, I would say that the "rules" of attachment parenting in the early days are absolutely TCS; what could be more TCS than allowing your child to nurse when they ask for it, instead of waiting until a schedule says it's time? If your baby needs to be cuddled to sleep at night, and you sleep with them, that's AP and TCS; if your baby needs space to sleep well and you put them in a crib, that's also AP and TCS.

When you are Taking Children Seriously, you have to take _yourself_ seriously as well. TCS is about treating your children as though they are equal to you, not as though they are above you.

That's really beautifully put- and that's what I'd say we are trying to do. It's NOT easy sometimes, especially when you are more embedded in "mainstream" society, and sometimes I feel like it takes more time, but IMHO it's worth it for *my* family (can't speak for others). I think I identify more with TCS (although obviously also with GD) b/c I feel like I'm more at an extreme- I am against setting ANY limits beyond those that occur naturally or for safety reasons, will never ever do any kind of time-out, etc. but I my 2.5 yr old doesn't play with knives either (reference to a TCS conversation). Ultimately I do what works for us-- you (OP) need to do what works for *you*- and you know that best.

As far as the people at the conference, well.....my son quacks, but he is not a duck. In other words, they can call themselves anything they want- that doesn't make it true.


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## SagMom (Jan 15, 2002)

I don't usually come to the GD section of MDC, but the TCS thread dragged me over. (Also, I wanted to see how many abbreviations I could fit into one sentence.







)

I was on the TCS list a bunch of years ago. At that point, I didn't think of myself as coersive. My kids chose their own clothes, and foods and activities. I didn't force things that they were uncomfortable with (separations, kissing relatives, etc.) But being on that list really opened my eyes to how much coersion I still used. After recovering from that shock, what impressed me the most was TCSer's ability to problem solve. I wasn't following any particular parenting "style" (although different aspects of some methods ring true for me) so I wasn't looking for a checklist of how to parent, but I was really in awe of the extent that parents were able to find common preferences.

It really opened up a lot for me. Being respectful and not forceful was important to me, but whenever someone posted a "WWYD" question, it was like a challenge to come up with possibilities for common preferences. I'm hardly perfect at it, but it's been such a growing experience for me. I love to hear my kids come up with ideas for solving problems--some pretty unique, some way better than I could come up with, all leading to PEACE.

About the toddler wandering around alone, I wouldn't--not because I wouldn't "allow" it, but because *I* wouldn't be comfortable with it. I don't see tcs as kids doing whatever they please-- I think of TCS as helping kids to get what they want without causing any collateral damage. If the child wanted to explore without me, I'd try to find something that we were BOTH comfortable with. Maybe she could walk without holding my hand...or maybe she could walk without me, but I could follow her around...or maybe she could walk away from me as long as she was in my view...We'd both have to be satisfied with the plan, but I'd be careful that I wasn't making arbitrary rules.

I don't call myself TCS (or AP or anything else) but I do use the "common preference" approach. It's led to a lot of interesting changes in our lives.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

FWIW, what Eilonwy is describing as TCS is definitely not TCS according to the website, or the group, or the way I've ever seen it practiced. The idea that you attempt to convince a child to do something but then, if they won't, you force them anyway so that they won't experience more coercion later is just really not what TCS is all about. That way of thinking gives parents the freedom to totally coerce the children, on the grounds that the parents have a theory that the children will be coerced more later otherwise. The whole idea of "rules" is not TCS, or at least it wasn't when I was involved. TCS is built around "theories", which are people's ideas about things. Eilonwy, it sounds like you have an entrenched theory about following governmental rules, but my theory on this is different, and I don't follow a lot of governmental rules and have never been put in jail for it. Putting a screaming kid in a carseat is coercion no matter how you look at it; your justifications don't change that.

A big piece of TCS, for adults, is being willing to look at your entrenched theories, examine them critically, and realkize they may be irrational.

Dar


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I agree with Dar. that is not at al how I understood TCS. The way I undertood it is if your child didn't want to do something then you just didn't. So if they didn't want to ride in ther car seat you would either not go or find a legal way to go without the carseat (bus, bike, walk) or you choose not to go. you cannot disobey the law because you have internalized the importantce of upholding it but you also cannot coerce your child to follow the law. you can explain to them how this is the moral superior choice, how it is in thier own best intrest (not only safer to ride in a cars eat but you don't want mommy to go to jail). You may be thinking when does the parent ever win and isn't the child doing a lot of coercing to the parent since the parents can't just insist. well there is the rub. This is where all of my problems with TCS come in. I won't discus them here though







But everything I have read about TCS is that you don't force your child to do anything ever. you just wait until some sort of agreement/compromise can be reached.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
But everything I have read about TCS is that you don't force your child to do anything ever. you just wait until some sort of agreement/compromise can be reached.

Actually, "compromise" is considered a failure in TCS - "mutually agreeable solutions" are the goal, solutions that both parties want more than they wanted their original theory. Other than that, you're







.

The thing is, TCS theory holds that *people act irrationally because of coercion*, or because they don't have enough information, so their acts are actually rational based on the information they do have. Therefore, if you don't coerce and find a way to impart relevant information, your child's decisions will all be good, rational ones. This is the basis of the theory. If you hold with the statement - _irrationality is caused by coercion_ - then logically speaking, TCS must be correct. No one, so far, has disproved this statement. As I've said before, TCS is a _philosophy_, not a parenting method.

Of course, in the real world (as opposed to the philosophical one), people are coeced, so it's not like one can really test the theory... besides, there's that whole experimenting on people thing.

The words coercion and theory have specific meanings in TCS, that are different from their more commonly-known meanings. I found a glossary on their site, if you want to get definitions:
http://www.takingchildrenseriously.com/node/50

Dar


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
Actually, "compromise" is considered a failure in TCS - "mutually agreeable solutions" are the goal, solutions that both parties want more than they wanted their original theory. Other than that, you're







.


That's probably the one area where my family goes off the TCS track a bit... compromise. We have no problem with doing it


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## mamasadie (May 13, 2005)

Good point, Dar.







You pretty much summed up why I like TCS on a lot of levels, but I could not be a totally TCS parent. I am okay with compromise.









In the real world, children are also coerced by culture, society and other adults and children. So can a totally TCS parent really say that their child will never behave irrationally? Also, I think 'irrationality' is a pretty subjective term. The parent believes that if they never coerce, the child will do nothing that *they* consider irrational. But an act that can seem very irrational to me might make perfect sense to the person doing it, so really it's not fair to say that one's children will never do anything irrational if never coerced, b/c you are basically saying your children will never violate your own ideas of rationality. Sorry I'm thinking out loud here. Am I making any sense?

Also, regarding the coercion to avoid greater coercion thought, here is an scenario: If a TCS parent had a child with cancer, and the child needed chemotherapy, and all attempts to persuade the child failed, would a TCS parent be unable to 'coerce' the child into undergoing the lifesaving treatment?


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## Silliest (Apr 4, 2004)

So can some TCSer explain to me why I'm still smoking?

No one is coercing me either way. I certainly have more than enough information to know it's a bloody stupid thing to be doing, yet I am still doing it.

Why am I making this irrational decision in the absence of coercion?

The way I'm reading it, TCS theory says this doesn't happen.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

You are coercing yourself to stop smoking.

You have a physical theory that nicotine and smoking is more pleasurable than the lack thereof, and a conscious theory that smoking is bad.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I think with TCS, like many things, we always get lost in semantics and people get stuck in labels.

As I said in another post, I will bring up TCS as a philosophy I subscribe to in conversation because I can most closely identify with it in a lot of ways....but that doesn't mean I do every single thing laid out, or that I am perfect with it, or that I won't modify it to beter suit our family...you can't just take everything as black and white and accuse people of being or not being or of not doing it right or whatever because they don't do EVERYTHING that is laid out.

As I mentioned before, am I any less AP if I don't wear my daughter in a sling? Even if I don't wear her because it is about 100 degrees in Florida in the summer and being in a sling outside would probably kill her... ( I will try to wear a mesh sling but you get my drift)... I would hate it if someone came along and pointed their holier than thou finger at me and proclaimed that I AM NOT AP because I don't have my daughter in a sling-- despite practicing maybe all of the other things AP stands for...

I am just using an example. Of course, like everything, there are extremes. One cannot in good conscience...or with a shred of intelligence claim to be GD if they are spanking and yelling and punishing left and right (or at all for that matter)... but I am not going to shut someone out of my GD *club* if they practice everything else GD is about but once in a while gives their child a time out... I might not agree... but again... I am not going to argue semantics if their pronciples fall in line with 99% of other GD principles...

I am just saying, I think with most things, including TCS-- it is not a pissing contest or a competition to see who is most closely following the exact "rules" laid out in the philosophy-- kind of ironic too don't you think??... I think it is more an outlook about things, a philosophy you hold inside and approach your parenting and your children with TCS in mind...

If you don't feel comfortable allowing your child to watch a murderous, violent film...sometimes you have to make the decision to not allow it.. and that exact act may not be exactly what TCS is, but if you are practicing a TCS like philosophy 95% of the time, I don't think it is ridiculous to say you practice TCS...

I mean, I am a christian, but I am not freaking perfect.. I lie once in a while, and other various *unchristian* things... but I would hate it if some sactimonious person came along and proclaimed me NOT a christian because I wasn't perfect...

Again, if I went around proclaiming to worship satan, I could see where people would think, gee, that's not really what christian is (like if someone spanks they probably aren't GD or TCS) but you get my drift...


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

OFF topic, but how have you all learned about TCS? Is it just the web-site or are there books, classes, conferences and etc?


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

you can get a really good dose of it here:
http://unconditionalparentingboard.com/eve/

just look for anything by "doreen"

lord.

(and ftr, this very nice alfie kohn book/website has nothing to do with TCS)

but here's a nice little What IS TCS? from their website
http://www.takingchildrenseriously.com/node/48


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

nicely put, captain crunchy. i totally got your point, and very much agree.

i really liked what eilonwy wrote, and i think that describes what i try to do: minimize rules, compromise or work together to find peaceful resolutions. Dar..you know, i hope, how much i admire and respect you...but i have to say i felt some hostility towards eilonwy in your post. is this one of those "sore subjects" amonst TCS'ers? kind of felt like i stumbled onto a battlefield.









anyways, i think the TCS that Dar describes might be a bit above my head, and I can't say i find it very appealing in the sense it's described. i suppose i should go read up on it before i make a judgement. dar, would you say you are TCS?


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Oh, yea, I've checked into the website on and off a few times. I was just wondering if there was more info sources because some of you know so much about it.

I think the web-site said they stared at Sarah Laurence and I have a friend who is a child development professor there. She wasn't familiar with it. Does anyone know about this?

Thanks for the othe link...


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

To clarify...

The coercion you experience does not have to be regarding the same issue you're acting irrationally around. You may have been coerced around food, for example, and so you take up smoking as a result, to substitute for whatever foods you were denied. Once you're addicted to cigarettes, it may be rational for you to keep smoking - I think it would depend on your risk factors for luing cancer, how horrid you feel without cigarettes, and a bunch of other things.

According to TCS, "rational" has a specific meaning. Basic, if you're thinking rationally, you are seeking truth and open to new ideas, and not holding onto ideas that don't stand up to reasonable criticism. I find that it's pretty easy to see which ideas are rational and which ones aren't, and Rain and I don't disagree much on that. People who post on these boards and then go off in a huff when their ideas are criticized probably have irrational ideas.

Compromise means every gives something, and gets less than they originally wanted. However, in a family, one thing I generally want is for my other family members to be happy. So, if I want to go fishing with my brother at 8 and my brother wants to leave at 6, and we end up leaving at 7... you could see it as a compromise, but you could also see it as a mutually agreeable solution. If I think about it and realize that if we left at 8, he would be twiddling his thumbs for an hour or two and he'd be grumpy because of that and because we missed the early fishing, and I want him to be happy... then I would prefer leaving at 7, or maybe even at 6. Compromise leaves everyone feeling unsatisfied - you're grudgingly okay with it, but you really still have an active theory that you want to leave at 8. Mutually agreeable solutions leave everyone feeling satisfied.

A TCS parent's job is to try to help a child avoid being coerced by others. Really, it's hard to coerce someone without having so kind of power over them, so if a parent is TCS, that goes a long way. Children also get pretty good at seeing that someone is trying to coerce them and extricating themselves.

The kid-with-cancer-type scenarios come up over and over on the list, or they did back when I was on. It would depend so much on the details, too. What are the child's chances with chemo, and what are they without? Are there different chemo options available? Is surgery an option? Radiation? Few cases are very cut and dried... and TCS children behave rationally, although you may not agree with their decision. If chemo will give a child a 20% chance of survival at a year, but without chemo she has a 2% chance, is it irrational to refuse? What if the chemo will make her sick as a dog for 3 months? My mother refused her last radiation treatment when she had cancer, because she just couldn't make herself go through it anymore. Might that treatment have been the one that would have saved her? Probably not, but who knows, and whose choice should it be? (Sorry, cancer segue there...)

Dar


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
Dar..you know, i hope, how much i admire and respect you...but i have to say i felt some hostility towards eilonwy in your post. is this one of those "sore subjects" amonst TCS'ers? kind of felt like i stumbled onto a battlefield.









I am sorry if I came across as hostile... I really felt more frustrated than hostile. This is a topic that I was very involved in for years, and it is important to me that information about TCS be accurate (and often it isn't). It is a valuable philosophy, and I think people can get the most good from it when they truly understand it, even if they don't chose to live by it. Eilonwy was describing a very non-punitive, solution-oriented, respectful style of parenting, and I think people can learn a lot from her... but she wasn't describing TCS, imo.

Quote:

dar, would you say you are TCS?
I don't generally identify myself that way, because I disagree with the group on issues that don't pertain at all to the philosophy, like identifying children on the list (Rain may have been the only child ever to be identified by name on that list, because I asked and she wanted to be, and back then that was okay... it isn't now... and her name wasn't Rain then, if anyone remembers back that far). I do basically live according to the philosophy, although I'm not perfect at it, and I do consciously decide occasionally to coerce... although I often later regret it. Like, I have been coercive around Rain's room, and that's probablywhy it's knee-deep in crap right now... or maybe it's just because she's 12...

Dar

ETA: TCS has nothing to do with Sarah Lawrence college - one of i's founders is a woman named Sarah Lawrence, although I think she remarried or something and is now Sarah something-else. We did sometimes joke that TCS stood for The Church of Sarah...

Dar


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
i really liked what eilonwy wrote, and i think that describes what i try to do: minimize rules, compromise or work together to find peaceful resolutions. Dar..you know, i hope, how much i admire and respect you...but i have to say i felt some hostility towards eilonwy in your post. is this one of those "sore subjects" amonst TCS'ers? kind of felt like i stumbled onto a battlefield.









She's just feeling coerced by her loathing for my homeschooling style and everything else about my posts.







:LOL

From the TCS website:

Quote:

If time is against you, make the best moral choice you can think of at the time. Keep your priorities in order. It's more coercive to die than to have a lifesaving injection.
Sometimes you have to do things that are somewhat coercive to keep your children safe. I try to keep those things to a minimum. Maybe that means I'm not *really* a TCS parent. I already know that I'm not *really* AP, so I can live with not being "TCS enough" too.







It's still the closest thing to a label that I care to put on my parenting style.

The fact is, anything can be coercive if you look at it the right way. You could argue that a parent is being coerced into giving up control of the situation, and it really would be just as valid an argument against TCS as any. Everyone percieves coercion in different ways and to different degrees. The carseat example is not optimal for me, because my kids don't scream in their carseats very often, but I have dealt with situations which I consider similar where neither I nor my son felt coerced at the end.

I'm not going to address the legal issues; I specifically stated as much in my previous post.


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## Victorian (Jan 2, 2003)

OK. so you let your child choose her/his own bedtime. They go to bed at midnight (falling asleep on the floor) the next morning she/he has to go to the dentist so up you get them at 8:00. For the entire day they are yelling and cranky. What do you do? How do you function around them? Do you just suck it up? Do you talk to them about it? Do you just remember the 'tude the next time and not make a dentist appointment before noon? How would this work for my dd, an extremely spirited 6 year old?


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
She's just feeling coerced by her loathing for my homeschooling style and everything else about my posts.







.

Whatever.

Time wasn't an issue, in the example you gave. If your child is running into a street and a truck is zooming at him, you yank him back, even though his active theory at the time is wanting to run. You don't have time to rationally convince him. The lifesaving injection/ time limited example is the same thing. Carseats are not an issue where time is a major factor, so coercing isn't similarly justified.

I'm not seeing why you need a label for how you parent... why not just parent how you want and don't call it anything?

Wanting to control others is irrational, especially if you truly want what's best for them... it's usually based on fear.

Dar


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
Mutually agreeable solutions leave everyone feeling satisfied.

I think that is correct. To further complicate it I would say that often my family finds compromise (where everyone gives a little to work toward an answer, but doesn't get exactly what they originally wanted) something we mutually agree on. :LOL

Quote:

A TCS parent's job is to try to help a child avoid being coerced by others. Really, it's hard to coerce someone without having so kind of power over them, so if a parent is TCS, that goes a long way. Children also get pretty good at seeing that someone is trying to coerce them and extricating themselves.
I totally agree with this, and you said it very well. I definately agree that the kids become aware of coercion.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

While I admire the TCS philosophy, i am know i am not practicing it and i don't pretend to. Not 100 %, not 60 %. Or whatever.









Sometimes I just say no. Of course, sometimes I feel bad about that, too. Sometimes I am wrong. I try to better next time.

I'm surviving---trying to do the best i can in each situation. i try to think about what I am doing as a parent & I try to be totally respectful. But sometimes i know i am not. I fall far short of any particular philosophy.

I'm kinda The House of Imperfect Love. I do the best I can at the moment, given the circumstances, given the children and the needs involved. I totally respect my children, I totally know they are teaching me more than i am teaching them.

But I am not one philosophy, one theory. I am a mix of a bunch of stuff. I love learning from my kids, talking to them, getting to know them.

However, I feel very comfortable not being one thing. I love to discuss ideas with folks, I love to hear my children's ideas. I think there are many ways to thrive in a loving, respectful family.

edited for spelling


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## SagMom (Jan 15, 2002)

Unschoolnma, that's why I never got my TCS card--we compromise too. But I suspect our definition of compromise is different from the TCS definition of compromise. It's not a compromise if someone is miserable about the end result, or if the "compromise" is forced on one party. Before I'd heard of TCS, I used to question myself every time I'd say "No" by wondering, "Why not?" Lots of times, I'd find that there was no good reason to say no in the first place. Then later, I started to figure out ways to say "yes" more often. I think this mindset made me a little more open to TCS ideas than the midset I grew up with.

FWIW, I don't think anyone is completely one style of this or that--unless maybe they're robots programed to that "method." None of us is perfect, and we've all got histories that play into our parenting. I've found TCS to be a valuable theory because it forces me to examine what I'm doing and saying and why and to consider that it's possible for EVERYONE to win.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Victorian*
OK. so you let your child choose her/his own bedtime. They go to bed at midnight (falling asleep on the floor) the next morning she/he has to go to the dentist so up you get them at 8:00. For the entire day they are yelling and cranky. What do you do? How do you function around them? Do you just suck it up? Do you talk to them about it? Do you just remember the 'tude the next time and not make a dentist appointment before noon? How would this work for my dd, an extremely spirited 6 year old?

Beforehand, I'd remind them of the early appointment and suggest not staying up too late. But if they did anyway, I might call and change the appointment, or if it's a small child, maybe try put them in the car without waking them so they could catch a little extra sleep-time (I could do that with one of my children) it's possible they'd nap the next day, or go to bed early the next night. I WOULD talk to them about it, but I'd definately wait until they're rested. If staying up late became a regular thing, or even a probable thing, I wouldn't make early morning appointments anymore. As to how to deal with the crankiness...mostly ride it out, not expect too much from them that day, suggest a nap or lots of quiet time, try to empathize by recognizing that *I* get cranky sometimes too...I'm sure there are lots of possibilities I'm missing.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Victorian*
OK. so you let your child choose her/his own bedtime. They go to bed at midnight (falling asleep on the floor) the next morning she/he has to go to the dentist so up you get them at 8:00. For the entire day they are yelling and cranky. What do you do? How do you function around them? Do you just suck it up? Do you talk to them about it? Do you just remember the 'tude the next time and not make a dentist appointment before noon? How would this work for my dd, an extremely spirited 6 year old?

My son goes to bed when he is tired; right now it's 12:10 and he's just settling down. If, for some reason, he had an appointment which necessitated him waking up much earlier than is usual (he'll probably wake up around 7 this morning) I probably would have made an effort to run him more today. I'd have asked Mike to take him to the Y to swim, and done what I could to get him some exercise during the day (the park would have been out; it was nasty and rainy and gray







). I'd have seen to it that he had a fun, busy day, the kind which tires him out but doesn't overstimulate him. Having had such a day, he'd have come home, eaten dinner, brushed his teeth and asked one of us to come "snugglebug" around 9pm. He'd then wake the following morning, bright and shiny and ready to face the world around a quarter to five.









In other words, I know my child and know how to avoid or facilitate certain events. Is it coercion? I don't think so; BeanBean loves going to the park and getting fresh air, he loves having busy days. We'd both be happy, having reached a common preference, and he would go to bed when he wanted to just as he always does. I see it as avoiding a potential conflict with adequate preparation, and I think that a lot of conflicts can be avoided that way. I've never had a hard time waking BeanBean up for appointments; I have a much harder time waking myself up. BeanBean will sleep when he's tired, but I haven't got that much sense.







:LOL


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I'm curious as to how this would work in larger families, with three or more children. Every discussion I've ever seen on TCS has been dominated by parents of onlies or two children, but one is a baby or small toddler.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
TCS has nothing to do with Sarah Lawrence college - one of i's founders is a woman named Sarah Lawrence,

:LOL Now, I get it...


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joan*
Unschoolnma, that's why I never got my TCS card--we compromise too. But I suspect our definition of compromise is different from the TCS definition of compromise. It's not a compromise if someone is miserable about the end result, or if the "compromise" is forced on one party.

Yes, that's my take on it as well.

Quote:

I WOULD talk to them about it, but I'd definately wait until they're rested. If staying up late became a regular thing, or even a probable thing, I wouldn't make early morning appointments anymore. As to how to deal with the crankiness...mostly ride it out, not expect too much from them that day, suggest a nap or lots of quiet time, try to empathize by recognizing that *I* get cranky sometimes too...
I totally agree







There are a variety of options.


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## SagMom (Jan 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
I'm curious as to how this would work in larger families, with three or more children. Every discussion I've ever seen on TCS has been dominated by parents of onlies or two children, but one is a baby or small toddler.

I've noticed this as well about the list discussion. I would think it would be easier with only one child -- but then when I only had one, EVERYTHING was easier, yk? TCS thinking is still possible though, and of course, every child's personality is different too. My oldest is very easy going and calm, and seems to just accept that there's an agreeable solution to everything. My middle child has been called "difficult" and "spirited" or whatever and has a harder time seeing options to problems, but then I sometimes think that she's benefited more from these exercises than anyone. She tends to get one idea stuck into her head and think that the world will stop spinning unless things are done "this" way. Talking up problem-solving and common preferences helps her to see options out of problems. My youngest is just so much happier when I'm taking the time to do this (evidenced by the contrast during the times when I'm *not* perfect







and attempt any sort of "because I said so garbage.)

So, while it takes time to figure out common preferences, I think it all balances out in the end. I mean, compared to "Because I said so" parenting and the resulting tantrums and arguements or punishments (which all take tons of time) it doesn't really take any longer. And you have happier kids too.

I LOVE







it when I overhear a problem between the kids and then one of them will stop and say, "Okay, what can we do about this?" and the ideas start flying. Not that they don't ever fight, but those flashes are soooo worth it.


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## moonshine (Dec 5, 2002)

Speaking of problems solving and finding common preferences with more than one child, at what age did this really starting becoming a thing for you, IFKWIM? I have an almost 3.5 and 1.5 year old. With the 1.5 yr old, it isn't so much of an issue, although she gets very "attached" to things (getting a tooth brush out of her hand after she starts brushing is always a bit of an ordeal because she wants to do it FOREVER, I probably shouldn't complain as I know many parents have difficulty in getting their kids to brush, but man!). With my 3.5 yr old, I can generally try to have a dialogue to problem solve, although we really could get much better at it, but obviously it is infinitely easier when I am just dealing with her (but as someone else pointed out, most everything would be easier with just one







)

One of my current issues is the older one grabbing things from the younger one, just because it seems more interesting, I guess. This drives me wild, and I have yet to figure out a good way to deal with this. For a while I could let them sort it because the younger one didn't mind, but now she is starting to. Maybe I need to start a new thread on this, because I really do need to change my approach (which is right now not very GD, TCS, non-punitive at all







) But if this can fit into the context of this discussion, please share!


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## Chanley (Nov 19, 2001)

moonshine,

I have a grabber too. Which is a bummer because I made sure that grabbing things out of my oldests hands was a HUGE no no. We ask for things we want and most times, we got them. I would feel so small and invalidated if someone came over and ripped something out of my hands.

For that reason, I dont do that when my oldest grabs somethign out of my little ones hands.

Instead, I console the crying child and verbally talk about how it feels to have something taken away. I try to enlist the older one to help me console the little one. I ask questions, " Ohh he is so sad, what do you think would make him smile again?" Sometimes I have to suggest, "Do you think giving him xyz would make him feel better?" Then I ask, "how do you feel when he is crying? it makes me very sad to see him so upset." I talk about our feelings and try to point out the other persons feelings.

This takes patience and dont expect the older one to co-operate. Sometimes they don't. But you can still soothe the younger one.

I am not sure if this is the right thing to do. I am new to this....
My instincts are to go to the offender and right the wrong. However, this puts me into the same behavior as the offending child. My new way of doign this is to give my immediate attention to the crying/hurt child and trying to enlist the help of the other one to help him.


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## SagMom (Jan 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonshine*
Speaking of problems solving and finding common preferences with more than one child, at what age did this really starting becoming a thing for you, IFKWIM?

Even though a pre-verbal child can't negotiate a common preference, they can make it pretty clear what it is they want. :LOL

I think it's up to the parent to sort of be the voice for the young child--"It sounds like she doesn't like it when you take her toy away from her." And then maybe find a duplicate toy, or suggest trading something with the younger child for the toy the older one wants, or waiting until the younger one is done with it, etc.

We actually used the "trading" thing a lot when there was a baby in the house. Say, while building with blocks, the older child would need the shape the baby was chewing on. The baby didn't really care what shape she had, so it was easy to trade another one with the baby. Both kids ended up happy.

I don't know the official tcs take on this issue, but imo, I don't see anything wrong for the parent to speak for the pre-verbal child, as long as both kids are happy in the end.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joan*
I think it's up to the parent to sort of be the voice for the young child--"It sounds like she doesn't like it when you take her toy away from her." ..........................
I don't know the official tcs take on this issue, but imo, I don't see anything wrong for the parent to speak for the pre-verbal child, as long as both kids are happy in the end.

Yes! This is how I feel too, and it's exactly what I did. I tried to pay close attention to what my wee ones were really communicating in whatever way they could.


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## kitty waltz (Mar 23, 2005)

I've been reading about TCS for some years now, since my oldest was a baby, so about 3 years. I think her name now is Sarah Fitz-Claridge. And there are books -" With consent- parenting for all to win" by jan fortune-wood and "doing it their way - autonomous home education" by the same author. Very detailed explanations of the philosophy. I would say that I believe TCS - yet I havent been able or willing to fully enact all the implications of this philosophy in my family life. I tried for a long time, but then I had issues in my marriage, a divorce, and I learned my daughter is autistic. I really just cant let her watch tv at her liesure. The one period of time I left the tv in her reach she would put a tape in, watch it on ff, rew, back and forth and switching movies too. She figured it all out and stayed up really really late so we took it out of her reach again. Her days must be structured. But I give her all the choices I can, and i consider her preferences always when scheduling our days. We frequently vary from our planned schedule board for a spontaneous bubble bath or playdough or something. I may have to structure her day but I still minimize conflict I mean. I still value her point of view and try to respect it. But I do coerce now... one of her autistic habits is a need for touch stimulation. She will follow me around holding me, and if shes so inclined she may grab her 17mo brother harshly, repeatedly, for her stim. I have to stop this of course and sometimes there just is nothing but tunnel vision for her - no common preference to be found. I always hate this -but what else to do???

I have noticed since following the tcs list so long ago and the message board - there arent many mentions of children with special needs.


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