# Healing The Gut Tribe!



## xekomaya (Apr 18, 2007)

If there is no current thread for this, I think we need to start one. Hopefully there are still some mamas around working on healing and we can get a good chat going.

DH and I are both in the need of some gut healing so I've been doing lots of reading. He has IBS, seems to be developing arthritis & is in constant joint/muscle pain. I have all kinds of bizarre problems and I feel like too much of a hypochondriac to list them all







but I do think it all originates in my gut. I also have begun to suspect that ds is reacting to foods through breast milk. I only realized yesterday and dropped dairy right away, but it's too soon to see improvements. From my reading it seems that if he is reacting to foods through me, I almost certainly have a leaky gut -- which would confirm my earlier thought.

So is there anyone else still out there? Come on in!


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## FrannieP (Sep 11, 2007)

You've read through this right?
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=434071


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## xekomaya (Apr 18, 2007)

Yup - and just about all of the past healing the gut tribe threads - although I still have ~60 tabs open with more research & reading mostly on pub med







. DH can't stand to use my computer because all the tabs make him dizzy.


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## Shelsi (Apr 4, 2005)

I'm really really new to trying to "heal the gut" because of my dd's food allergies. The "cheat sheet" thread makes my head spin to be honest. So I certainly don't have anything to add but I'll be taking notes from all the others!


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## xekomaya (Apr 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shelsi* 
I'm really really new to trying to "heal the gut" because of my dd's food allergies. The "cheat sheet" thread makes my head spin to be honest. So I certainly don't have anything to add but I'll be taking notes from all the others!

Welcome! The cheat sheet is an awesome resource but it can be really intimidating -- it took me 3 weeks of nursing + a growth spurt to get though it!

I'm not sure how many of the experienced mamas are still around, and I'm just getting started, so if you feel like it, you might as well jump right in


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## seventy (Oct 3, 2007)

Well Hello.. I'll join/revive this thread if'n ya don't mind.

We're beginning this journey. Well actually, we began a few months ago but we're really getting serious now. It'll be me and my year old nursling. I'll share our histories later (too sleepy now).
I too have read the HTG Cheat Sheet and tons of other related threads. I feel like I could publish a book from all that I've learned.

be back later!!


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## Evenstar (Sep 20, 2007)

Yes, please

I'm just getting started in the healing, too


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## xekomaya (Apr 18, 2007)

Oh yay! Welcome!

I was hoping to be able to revive this thread.

*Seventy*, I'd be really interested to hear how it's going for your family.

So far we've started:
- Probiotics for all
- A house rule that we must drink 1c. bone broth per day
- CLO for me (not sure I can convince DH to try it)
And trying to shift our diet to TF. I'm seeing some improvement already, but my lo is still showing allergy symptoms even after removing diary so I think I'm going to need to start an elimination diet. I'm going to be very picky about what and how I add food back in and hopefully can heal my gut a bit while I do it.

I'm considering staring l-glutamine, but saw some really negative reports online (on pecanbread) so I think I might need more info.


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## ReadingMama (Mar 13, 2007)

I know absolutely nothing about healing the gut, but came to this forum looking for information about it. I have Crohn's disease and IBS (and several other things) and my son has IBS and GERD. My son experiences belly pain several times a day and often has to go to the bathroom right after he eats. He has really bad gas too (which he is totally proud of!)









We have friends whose children had a food sensitivity test done (called Bloodprint) and they made major changes in their kids' diet. Their kids' belly pain and potty problems have improved dramatically. I'd like to have the testing done to see what foods could be contributing to my son's IBS, but the test is expensive and we don't have regular insurance now.

I'd love to learn more about healing the gut!


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

I have been through the cheat sheet a million times, and I'm still learning a lot. I have ulcerative colitis. I'm on the SCD and I've convinced my insurance to pay for really powerful probiotics. Now I'm trying to convince DH to go on the diet. He has some IBS symptoms. He's really resisting, in that way men do when they'd rather be stoic and "tough it out."









Anyway, I thought I'd jump in since I always like to learn more.


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## xekomaya (Apr 18, 2007)

*ReadingMama* - Hi, Welcome! How's it going for you? Have you had a chance to look through the cheat sheet? Feel free to jump in with any questions. I hope you're able to come up with a plan of action for yourself and your little man. You should definitely read Breaking the Vicious Cycle if you haven't already.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Llyra* 
I have been through the cheat sheet a million times, and I'm still learning a lot. I have ulcerative colitis. I'm on the SCD and I've convinced my insurance to pay for really powerful probiotics. Now I'm trying to convince DH to go on the diet. He has some IBS symptoms. He's really resisting, in that way men do when they'd rather be stoic and "tough it out."









Anyway, I thought I'd jump in since I always like to learn more.

Hi - Can I ask what kind of probiotics you covered?

I had started SCD but couldn't find a suitable intersection of foods that I could digest & ds wasn't allergic to so I had to take a brief break. I'm also looking at GAPS for the supplement protocol, but I think I need to read the book, not just the website summary









We're having a little stall here for an extreme elimination diet for ds's allergies but hopefully will be back underway shortly. I was feeling a lot better with the bone broth & CLO, and then even more so while SCD legal so hopefully I can get back to that soon.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Yes! I have more time now to learn and contribute, things were a little rocky for a while!


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## xekomaya (Apr 18, 2007)

Hi Jane! Welcome back. So glad you're here!


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## Chinese Pistache (May 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *xekomaya* 
Welcome! The cheat sheet is an awesome resource but it can be really intimidating -- it took me 3 weeks of nursing + a growth spurt to get though it!

I'm not sure how many of the experienced mamas are still around, and I'm just getting started, so if you feel like it, you might as well jump right in









Oh yeah. It's been a while since I plowed through it, but it definitely took some time.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Llyra* 
I have been through the cheat sheet a million times, and I'm still learning a lot. I have ulcerative colitis. I'm on the SCD and I've convinced my insurance to pay for really powerful probiotics. Now I'm trying to convince DH to go on the diet. He has some IBS symptoms. He's really resisting, in that way men do when they'd rather be stoic and "tough it out."









Anyway, I thought I'd jump in since I always like to learn more.

Just curious, what probiotics are you using?

To the pp that saw some negative reports about l-glutamine, I'd be interested to read them.


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## menomena (Jun 14, 2007)

Hi! I recognize a lot of faces from the allergy forum...









We're a couple months in to a "serious" healing regime - i.e. more than just probiotics.

We do:
* daily probiotics (more when tummies are upset)
* daily CLO
* daily Evening Primrose Oil
* enzymes with every meal/large snack
* homemade bone broth in everything
* cultured veggies (sauerkraut and pickles, mostly)
* food combining, most of the time (this is more of a yeast fighting thing a la Body Ecology Diet)

We are currently avoiding all of our known allergens/sensitivities + the remainder of the top 8 to allow the gut to heal.


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## applecider (Jul 16, 2005)

I'm joining this thread to possibly help out my sister. For years she has suffered from "spastic colon" and has been on every med known to man it seems. She's finally agreed to try a more natural approach so I'm doing some research. I think I'd like to take her to a naturopath and also get an allergy panel done. I'm a little overwhelmed with all the info, but I'm doing my best! Plus there's always the problem of I can only help her as much as she wants to help herself. But I think she's at the breaking point and modern medicine has not fixed the problem so far.


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## greeny (Apr 27, 2007)

I have esophagitis and two small ulcers, and lots of and lots of stomach pain that comes and goes. Have had upper GI and endoscopy (the tube down the throat), and am on Nexium 40 mg once or twice a day. This is, according to my doc, a med that I may have to take for the rest of my life, but my understanding is that it's not meant to be a long-term drug, so I need to get on the ball and start searching for natural cures for myself.


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## kjbrown92 (Dec 13, 2007)

Does anyone know the difference between CLO and fish oil? The naturopath put me on 4 capsules of high potency fish oil a day for inflammation. It lowered my cholesterol about 50 points!! Should I be taking both CLO and Fish Oil? Or do they both do the same thing?

I bought EnzymeGold, but haven't tried it yet (for anyone in the family).

I make bone broth (beef for DS and chicken for DD since they're allergic to the opposing meats!) and use it at least once a week (hard since we're on a 4-day rotation diet).

We take acidophilus tablets daily, and I make coconut milk yogurt.

And we avoid known allergens (and rotate foods).


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

These are what I'm using:
http://www.vsl3.com/VSL3/default.asp
They're insanely expensive, so I couldn't get them without insurance paying.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

I might as well jump onto the thread too....

I'm sure most of you know me from the Allergy forum, but for those who don't- we've been battling serious food allergies in DD for almost 9 months now. I've FINALLY gotten my diet to a point where she's not reacting (or at least where I can see when she's reacting, and what she's reacting to), but I'm down to about 7 foods.

Now that I have my diet somewhat controlled, I'm just starting to get into some serious gut healing. I was doing a lot of supplements, but DD was reacting to one or more of them, so I stopped everything. Plus, I became sensitized and started reacting to my enzymes after taking them for a month... so those are out. What I plan to do instead is introduce a lot of cultured foods. I'm off to find some good, big glass jars at IKEA & Goodwill today, then will make my first batch of NT pickled beets this afternoon (with just sea salt, DD is allergic to dairy so I can't use whey). I'm also going to start growing my own kombucha scoby from a bottle of GT's. I hope to also eventually get some water kefir grains and get that started too.

So I guess right now, the only thing we're doing is: daily kombucha for me, and I just started DD back on probiotics after her last serious reaction. And allergen avoidance.

Oh- and I've cut all sugars out of my diet (except this delicious raw honey that I have... I'm working on that one) to see if yeast might be a contributor to our problem.


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## Bella Spruce (May 7, 2007)

Guess I should join in as well. I've been lurking for so long and learning so much that I'm starting to feel a bit guilty for not giving back a bit.

Short story is that I and my 1 year old baby are both recently dx'ed with celiac disease and now I'm trying to fix us both as I perilously introduce him to real people food. The poor kid is allergic to most everything eventually. I see other people struggling with similar stuff.

A thought: What about raw honey to add to the list of usual suspects for gut healing? A quick search on pubmed turns up the following afflicted mice:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16533410

I know I've seen more... Honey's an old remedy for a variety of tummy issues. We've been finding it good to sip it in water. I'm finding it helps with both pain and dehydration when we are recovering from gluten screw ups.

Also I get to eat honey.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

So glad to see this thread! I just posted something in the Allergies forum about our current dilemma, but I would love to talk these things out.

Our history: My first son (now 9) had intestinal issues because I had a shot of abx in labor (and my gut needed healing too), and we did the SCD for three years.

My second child had no intestinal problems at all, though he does have a peanut allergy. I had learned more this time, and was wiser. He had not had any allopathic medcicine at all until this spring when he had strep/scarlatina and I did not want to give abx, but wound up doing it anyway. We are still trying to heal his gut, it really messed it up. I can't believe they are giving out abx like this when it is not life-threatening and it can have these effects. I am so angry about it.

I will come back and post again later about what we are doing.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Here's what I just poseted in the Allergies forum about our current situation with gut healing:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=958538


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bella Spruce* 
A thought: What about raw honey to add to the list of usual suspects for gut healing? A quick search on pubmed turns up the following afflicted mice:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16533410

I know I've seen more... Honey's an old remedy for a variety of tummy issues. We've been finding it good to sip it in water. I'm finding it helps with both pain and dehydration when we are recovering from gluten screw ups.

Also I get to eat honey.

I'm still really torn about honey. I found this DELICIOUS local raw honey that is so cloudy and thick, it's like eating peanut butter. It's heaven. But I realized that now I crave it- which probably means that I shouldn't have it. Although it's still out for debate, I have a feeling that the honey IS adding to a possible yeast problem that I have (and the yeast is wanting that delicious source of food, making me crave it).







So I finished off the jar last night, and I'm going to try and stay off the honey for a few weeks and see what happens.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

I am trying to figure out if the probiotics I am giving are making things better or worse. I don't want to stop all together, because I am afraid if that's the wrong thing, it would get a lot worse. But I have heard that for some people, certain strains can actually make the situation worse. Or for some people, the probiotics make their stool looser.

I am giving the Klaire Ther Biotic Complete (25 billion) 3 times a day, and the kids are 4 and 9. They have perfect, formed stools sometimes, then other times they have loose stools. Like, they come out formed but then separate in the water. In addition, they saythey have tummy aches sometimes. Nothing bad, and it goes away soon after, but my 9 year old has never complained of tummy aches before.

I am giving this one 3 times a day because a holistic ped suggested I do that, along with an herbal candid yeast formula. So, I am wondering if maybe this should only be given in conjunction with that (like, they balance each other out?).

When I reduce the amount, they seem to get worse, so I don't want to completely stop, but I haven't tried completely stopping.

What do you all think?


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## Chinese Pistache (May 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
I am trying to figure out if the probiotics I am giving are making things better or worse. I don't want to stop all together, because I am afraid if that's the wrong thing, it would get a lot worse. But I have heard that for some people, certain strains can actually make the situation worse. Or for some people, the probiotics make their stool looser.

I am giving the Klaire Ther Biotic Complete (25 billion) 3 times a day, and the kids are 4 and 9. They have perfect, formed stools sometimes, then other times they have loose stools. Like, they come out formed but then separate in the water. In addition, they saythey have tummy aches sometimes. Nothing bad, and it goes away soon after, but my 9 year old has never complained of tummy aches before.

I am giving this one 3 times a day because a holistic ped suggested I do that, along with an herbal candid yeast formula. So, I am wondering if maybe this should only be given in conjunction with that (like, they balance each other out?).

When I reduce the amount, they seem to get worse, so I don't want to completely stop, but I haven't tried completely stopping.

What do you all think?

When did you start them on the probiotics? It could very well be that they're still needing more gut healing and that takes time. Do they eat/drink dairy? Do they eat gluten?


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chinese Pistache* 
When did you start them on the probiotics? It could very well be that they're still needing more gut healing and that takes time. Do they eat/drink dairy? Do they eat gluten?

Well, my youngest (4 yo) has been on the 3x/day Klaire for a lot longer, a few months, while my oldest one (9 yo) has only been doing that for a few weeks. No dairy right now, and I had cut out gluten too. But I put gluten back in this week. He has had several formed, actually perfect stools since putting it back in, but I guess it could be that. He hasn't had much gluten, just a few pieces of sprouted grain bread. But I guess it could be a delayed reaction to that.

I guess I was just wondering, because I hear some people say that probiotics actually make them have looser stool, if it could be that he's just really sensitive, and the 75 billion total per day is too much.

He has now had total diarrhea (turn the water brown) for two days now. Only twice a day, but still, this is not normal. He also said he had a tummy ache every day this week. Didn't tell me this until yesterday, but when I asked him if his tummy hurt, he said yes, his tummy never used to hurt, but this week, at least once a day, it has felt "weird".

When I first tried the Klaire probs for them several months ago during/right after the probiotics, it caused lots of tummy rumbling and tummyaches. So I don't know what to do. I was considering just stopping and trying just foods, like making yogurt. Though we have not been eating dairy at all. I am afraid to completely stop though, because what if he has a pretty significant imbalance, and it gets worse quickly from completely stopping for a few days.

I could also try this herbal supplement that this pediatrician that I saw recommended. I was hesitating to try it because it has a lot of strong herbs in it, like pau d'arco, and something in me was just resisting it. But maybe I am just being over-anxious about it.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

I'm reading Dr. Cass Ingram's _The Cure is in the Cupboard_ right now about oil of oregano (North American Herb & Spice brand) and it's really interesting information.

Anti viral, anti bacterial and anti fungal. From sinusitis, eczema, and psoriasis to IBS, candida, measles, mumps, chicken pox and diptheria.

I think I need to look into more traditional herbal textbooks. I feel like I need to know more about creating an "antibiotic free" arsenal.

Our holistic dietician rec it for DS b/c she still thinks he has some stuff going on b/c he's so fruit and sugar sensitive still. Only the low sugar fruits he can tolerate. Perfect stools on lots of GF grains and potatoes, so not sure what exactly is up with him.


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## BookGoddess (Nov 6, 2005)

I'm here though I lurk a lot of time.

DD has multiple food sensitivies according to her 90-day IgG test.
She's on Klaire's Therabiotic probiotics. She also gets HMF powdered probiotic.
She takes enzymes from Houston Nutraceuticals given apart from the probiotics.
DD gets cod liver oil and evening primrose oil daily along with l-carnitine to help absorption.
She takes Nystatin for yeast. We alternate it with Uva Ursi and Saccharomyces boulardii. I'm also using biotin to help with the yeast. She's also on a low sugar diet. DD's tummy still seems a bit pot bellied to us so I have a feeling we haven't gotten all the yeast.

We're going to do a repeat stool test soon we'll see if the enzymes, probiotics, and antifungals have helped.

I'm suspecting she has some latent viruses in her. From time to time she gets unexplained fevers without any other symptoms. We've had her tested for UTIs and kidneys problems but nope, there's nothing wrong.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BookGoddess* 
She takes Nystatin for yeast. We alternate it with Uva Ursi and Saccharomyces boulardii. I'm also using biotin to help with the yeast. She's also on a low sugar diet. DD's tummy still seems a bit pot bellied to us so I have a feeling we haven't gotten all the yeast.

We're going to do a repeat stool test soon we'll see if the enzymes, probiotics, and antifungals have helped.

I'm suspecting she has some latent viruses in her. From time to time she gets unexplained fevers without any other symptoms. We've had her tested for UTIs and kidneys problems but nope, there's nothing wrong.

How did you know she needed the things like Nystatin and S boulardii for yeast? What kind of S Boulardii do you use and how/when do you give it? Klaire has a probiotic called ABx Support that has S. boulardii, L. rhamnosus, Bifidobacterium bifidum, and Bifidobacterium breve, for a total of 10 billion CFUs. I was thinking about trying this for my 9 year old, but wasn't sure about how to use it for kids.

How much of the Klaire Ther Biotic Complete does your DD have per day?

Sorry for all the questions! Just one more...what kind of stool test did she have and what was it looking for?

Did your DD have problems after abx or was it something else?

Many thanks!!


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
I'm reading Dr. Cass Ingram's _The Cure is in the Cupboard_ right now about oil of oregano (North American Herb & Spice brand) and it's really interesting information.

Anti viral, anti bacterial and anti fungal. From sinusitis, eczema, and psoriasis to IBS, candida, measles, mumps, chicken pox and diptheria.

I think I need to look into more traditional herbal textbooks. I feel like I need to know more about creating an "antibiotic free" arsenal.

Our holistic dietician rec it for DS b/c she still thinks he has some stuff going on b/c he's so fruit and sugar sensitive still. Only the low sugar fruits he can tolerate. Perfect stools on lots of GF grains and potatoes, so not sure what exactly is up with him.

Thanks for the book suggestion. I am also educating myself because I will never give my kids abx again. Only one round of abx messed up my 4 year old's system so much that it has taken months and months and we're still working on it.

I think there are certain fruits that make my older son's system more volatile too.

What do you do for grains? You said GF grains, but I have been having a hard time finding ways to make things from GF grains that are also NT/WAP.


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## dogmom327 (Apr 19, 2007)

Subbing!

I need to get on board. I have major yeast issues and have for a long time so I suspect my gut is officially a disaster area at this point. Things I am doing (or trying to do) every day:

--At least a quart of water kefir
--At least 16 oz. of kombucha
--Couple of tablespoons of coconut oil
--CLO/BO
--Cook everything possible in bone broth
--Just started making fermented veggies








--Try to eat TF as much as I possibly can


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dogmom327* 
Subbing!

--At least a quart of water kefir
--At least 16 oz. of kombucha
--Couple of tablespoons of coconut oil
--CLO/BO
--Cook everything possible in bone broth
--Just started making fermented veggies








--Try to eat TF as much as I possibly can


Wow! That sounds great! I have wanted to try making kefir or kombucha, but haven't yet. Is there a difference in kefir and water kefir?


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## dogmom327 (Apr 19, 2007)

Water kefir has the same benefits as dairy kefir but you can drink a whole lot more of it since it's water-based. Also water kefir can be easily flavored. I personally love it with 1/2 c. lemon juice (per 1/2 gallon of WF). Makes a fabulous lemonade. You can also add fruit, vanilla extract, etc. A good friend of mine makes water kefir lemonade and just leaves it in the fridge. Her teenagers drink it by the gallon. As far as they're concerned, it's just lemonade but she gets the satisfaction of knowing they are getting a healthy probiotic drink.


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## BookGoddess (Nov 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
How did you know she needed the things like Nystatin and S boulardii for yeast? What kind of S Boulardii do you use and how/when do you give it? Klaire has a probiotic called ABx Support that has S. boulardii, L. rhamnosus, Bifidobacterium bifidum, and Bifidobacterium breve, for a total of 10 billion CFUs. I was thinking about trying this for my 9 year old, but wasn't sure about how to use it for kids.

How much of the Klaire Ther Biotic Complete does your DD have per day?

Sorry for all the questions! Just one more...what kind of stool test did she have and what was it looking for?

Did your DD have problems after abx or was it something else?

Many thanks!!

I don't mind the questions.

My daughter is on the autism spectrum. We heard about the Defeat Autism Now (DAN!) approach which combines biomedical approaches with therapy. The biomed has been helpful to my DD. One of the tests our DAN doctor recommended was a comprehensive stool/parasitology test from Doctor's Data. It was very helpful. It showed DD had various imbalances in her gut like Gamma Strep, Klebsiella Pnuemonia, etc. We also learned how much of the good bacteria and how much of the bad yeast she had. Using that we came up with a plan to add more beneficial bacteria, eliminate the yeast, and aid digestion by use of enzymes. The stool was cultured by the lab (fun job, huh?







) and they told us that the yeast was sensitive to Nystatin ( a prescription med), Uva Ursi (an herb that should only be used short term for it can be toxic if used long-term), and caprylic acid (from coconut oil).

I use the S. Boulardii for yeast control. It is also a yeast but it kills the bad yeast. If you use S. Boulardii for yeast control you can't do it at the same time as a prescriptive yeast med like Nystatin. It will kill the S. Boulardii. From what I understand S. Boulardii isn't meant to be used on and on. I think you're supposed to take a break on it. I get ours from Kirkman Labs. http://www.kirkmanlabs.com/products/...0_Spec240.html
I give 1 capsule a day. It has 9 billion CFUs.

We also take the Gastroimmune Support capsules from Kirkman. It has cat's claw, turmeric, ginger root, marshmallow root, slippery elm bark, and quercetin to help the gut. http://www.kirkmanlabs.com/products/...romune367.html

Hope that helps!


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

BookGodess,

Thank you for that info. Please let us know when you get the repeat test done! I hope it is helping her.

Did you say she also takes the Klaire Ther Biotic Complete? How much/often does she take that?

I am giving it three times a day and just wondered if it was too much. The doctor who told me to give it to them also told me to do an herbal Candida/yeast formula at the same time (which I am not doing, it just seemed too strong). So I am wondering if they are supposed to balance each other out, and that without the herbs that maybe I am giving too much of the probiotics.

I just hesitated to give this to them because it seems like one of those "blanket" formulas. Like, put everything in there and hope some of it helps. But he told me to give it for 6 months, and it has uva ursi leaf, pau d'arco bark, olive leaves, grapefruit seed, garlic root, oregon grape root, black walnut hulls, echinacea root. You mentioned that uva ursi shouldn't be given long term. I don't know, I just felt like it seemed kind of strong, so I wanted to find more info first, but I haven't really been able to.

Thanks!


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## WildCanaryCait (Aug 9, 2006)

dipping back in and subbing! I feel like we are practically living on supplements....lol. We're still working on gut healing along with remineralization for Aidan, I am taking lots of supp's too. Now, I am seeing another symptom that has me backtracking to figure out what to increase or get rid of....ack! Help!
Aidan's feet, right under his big toes, are beginning to look dryish, sortof peeling, no cracks, no fungus/atheletes foot, but enough that I am using calendula cream when I put his socks on for him to try and moisturize some. His Dad has terrible problems with this, the bottoms of his feet are totally dried out, cracking, have been since he was about 25 he says. He goes today to a dermatologist, then podiatrist in a few weeks...went a long time ago and was told it is not fungal. The onloy reference I have found so far that gives a righton description is diabetes related, which does run in his family(mother). So....I am concerned about Aidan's tootsies!
For gut healing and the remin effort , Aidan takes:
blue ice hv clo
prob's
bone broths
homeopathic- cal phos and cal flour
butteroil
multi v's
D3 in mornin juice
trace minerals
xylitol mints
kale kale and more kale
white oak bark tincture

I think that's everything. Some things I just put in his smoothies, other things he likes off the spoon. He's working on his two year molars, but has the rest, so chewing vit's is no trouble.
I also take the clo, prob's, cal mag in the am, mag at night, organ caps(dr rons), coconut oil, prenatals, butter oil, GI repair, Super Enzymes plus.
I cook with the bone broths in general. I may be missing something on our regimen.

I'm baffled about his feet, wondering if I need to increase the clo? Has anyone encountered this?

Along the lines of gut healing, how long do you generally keep up all the supplements? We've not done any food sensitivity testing , just my recording and elimination tracking. We are still nursing alot too.

tia for any insights!!

Cait


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## BookGoddess (Nov 6, 2005)

momofmine - We were told not to use uva ursi for more than 9 days at at time. Ours is a straight up uva ursi formula. It doesn't have any other herbs in it. We take it for 9 days then stop then do another antifungal then another then come back to uva ursi. You have to keep rotating the antifungals because the yeast can become resistant. I'm thinking of ordering a new product called Candex. It works differently from other products for yeast. It dissolves the out film of the yeast. It's hard for yeast to become resistant to that.

I'll let you know what DD's latest test results reveal. I'm hoping for good things.

She takes the Ther-Biotic Complete (2 tablets daily) but I'm thinking of stopping it and using it instead because it has a strep strain (Streptococcus thermophilus) in it. I've heard that strep can be an issue for kids like mine on the spectrum. Until I know more I'm going to another probiotic formula from Klaire Labs.

Cait - It's really hard to remember all the supplements that I have to give. I even bought one of those pill containers that divides the morning, afternoon, and evening doses. I haven't used it yet.







I try to give supplements twice a day if I can. Once in the morning and once at night. I keep those that need to be separate like the zinc and calcium; probiotics and enzymes away from each other but the rest get mushed into food or a drink.
I find CLO is very helpful with my dry skin condition. What brand are you using?


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## BookGoddess (Nov 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 

I am giving it three times a day and just wondered if it was too much. The doctor who told me to give it to them also told me to do an herbal Candida/yeast formula at the same time (which I am not doing, it just seemed too strong). So I am wondering if they are supposed to balance each other out, and that without the herbs that maybe I am giving too much of the probiotics.



Yeast and bad bacteria can affect each other. If you are successful with antifungals and the yeast decreases that leaves room for the bad bacteria to flourish. You want to tackle both the yeast and the bad bacteria at the same time. Perhaps something like Candex might help. It's supposed to dissolve the cell walls of the yeast. It's not a drug. It's not a herbal formula. It's an enzymatic product with little side effects.
http://www.yeastinfectionadvisor.com...sforyeast.html
http://www.amazon.com/Pure-Essence-L.../dp/B0007A2G32


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BookGoddess* 
Perhaps something like Candex might help.

Ooh- that reminds me of a question that I had. I think JaneS had also mentioned Candex or Candidase on another thread... I found them both at the HFS, and another one (can't remember the brand now) that looked pretty similar. But the 3rd one had a disclaimer that one ingredient was derived from eggs (of course it didn't say _which_ ingredient), and that made me nervous, so I didn't get any of them.

Do you (or Jane) know if there are any top allergens in Candex or Candidase?

I am so scared to take supplements these days- it seems like DD reacts to all of them through my BM, and then I later find out that there is an ingredient derived from ____ [fill in one of our 1,000,000 allergens here] ___.


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## BookGoddess (Nov 6, 2005)

I'd like to know if Candex has eggs because DD is sensitive to eggs. But from the online research I've done, it looks like Candex is composed of purely vegetarian ingredients. http://www.smartbomb.com/pe00902.html
If someone knows otherwise, please tell us.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Maybe I will email all the companies. I think the Candex made me nervous because it said "free of" a bunch of stuff, but _not_ corn... and the Candidase said free of corn but then said something else that made me nervous... and the then third one said egg.









ETA:
Ok- got one response back from Enzymedica (for Candidase):
"Are ('are' not 'our'







) products are Vegan and are free of soy, egg, wheat/gluten, corn, or legumes"

So maybe I will go back and get that one.


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## spunky (Mar 27, 2005)

I have skimmed through the cheat sheet and this thread. I, nor my children, have any severe or diagnosed problems. I know I need to go through some gut healing measures but I am nursing a 4.5 yo and 2 yo. How slowly should I go through a yeast kill off and is one method recommended over another?
My 4.5 yo son has a few behavior issues and sometimes can't breath well that I think could be helped by a better diet. I don't think he has allergies and haven't done an elimination diet. I figured probiotics for him - anything else?
Thank you


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## WildCanaryCait (Aug 9, 2006)

Book Goddess, thanks for the reminder about the smtwtfs...lol. I buy Blue Ice HVCLO from Green Pastures, get my butter oil from them also.

Charlie went to the dermatologist yesterday...she told him it's psoraisis. He also has a tiny bit of fungal stuff. He doesn't remember 'which' type of psoriasis she said. Her first suggestion was three different prescriptions for cortizone/steroid/urea softener stuff. Lovely. She suggested we could use it on Aidan's feet for three days, no more....NO thank you. I didn't know psoriasis was so ....heriditary?
So...I am back to how to best help Aidan through our diet changes and supplements. reading reading reading........anyone have experience with this? I am concerned about overdoing all these supplements.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Just got a response about Candex (also got a response about Candidase, which I added to my earlier post). My original question was "Can you tell me if any of your ingredients *contain, or are derived from*: dairy/beef, soy, egg, wheat/gluten, corn, or legumes?"

The answer I got was "None of those ingredients are present in the Candex." I really hate vague answers like that, because many people think that they can say they product doesn't _contain_ a food because it's been processed and the proteins have been removed... but DD reacts even if it's a derivative and labeled 'hypoallergenic'. So maybe I will call them.


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## xekomaya (Apr 18, 2007)

You got the customer service answer. I would call, and when you get an answer, ask that they mail/fax you a letter stating such on their letter head. They discuss this on the pecanbread list all the time so I assume most companies will be willing if they really don't contain your allergens.

I would also take the list of ingredients and see if they will look up what each one is grown on/derived from for you one by one.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

I tried calling and just got voicemail, so I responded back to the email and asked again about derivatives. Then said on second thought, could they just tell me what the ingredients _are_ derived from since I have such a long list of allergens? That way, I can just check each one myself.

We'll see what they say...


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Oh- and I just wanted to post about something that we were talking about a while back... HONEY.

I stopped eating my raw honey because I had a feeling that it might be adding to a possible yeast problem for a couple reasons: 1) I craved it BAD, which usually means that your body is trying to avoid withdrawal, and 2) I kept having mystery rashes pop up. So I stopped the honey, didn't see any immediate improvement. The rashes slowly faded, but I didn't attribute it to the lack of honey because they took so long to go away (and I was expecting immediately changes). Well, I caved and bought a new jar of honey on Sunday, and what do you know? The rashes (which were almost completely gone) are back FULL FORCE the next day.







So I definitely have to cut out the honey for now. And I'm pretty positive that it's yeast now... the rashes are behind my knees, the inside of my thighs, and my belly button (of all places!).














So hopefully these people will get back to me soon about the Candex ingredients and I can start killing off some yeast.

Thought it was interesting though, since honey is always on debate for whether it helps/hurts yeast.


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## theboodges (Mar 21, 2008)

Hello! I would like to join in this thread too! I have been learning about healing the gut for a few years now. DS has had extreme medical issues and met the criteria for autism at one point. After lots of research and trial and error, we know now that as his digestive flora get out of balance, the autism type symptoms increase, and his ability to fight off normal colds/flu really decreases.

We have used some of the same strategies and some different ones than I have seen here so far though. Definitely done a lot with probiotics, modifying diets, trying gfcf, etc. We also had luck with ParaGone for cleansing yeast, and whole leaf aloe juice for rebuilding the mucus lining in the inestines. We have tried a few different enzyme products, and after trying different combinations of treatments they do appear to be a very important factor. We also do cal/mag/vit D, fish oil and a multivitamin. I think the most amazing part of the whole cleansing and rebalancing was how strong and balanced his immune system was! He went from the kid that caught everything and had breathing problems to not catching anything! DD, all the daycare kids and I all had a rough case of the flu last winter, and all DS had was a slight runny nose for a few days! So absolutely amazing!

Now DD is having some issues. She has a dairy and soy intolerance, and generally has really loose stools. Her immune system seems pretty solid though, no signs of environmental allergies, and she usually does better in not catching or quickly getting over colds than her peers. So I am back to researching again, to decide whether to try the same route or something different with her.

And as for the honey changingseasons, have you considerred that your reaction may be from the pollen in it? I recently met someone that has gotten rid of his seasonal allergies in less than 2 years by drinking tea with honey every day. He used to need prescription meds to function, and then was still uncomfortable. Apparantly the pollen is present in small amounts in the honey, and when taken regularly it acts like an allergy shot, gradually building up your tolerance. My gut feeling from honey is that it also feeds yeast, although I feel better about sweetening foods with it than some other options. Just thought I would share in case you might have more than one reaction going on!

Looking forward to learning from all of you!

Have a good afternoon!

Christy


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
Maybe I will email all the companies. I think the Candex made me nervous because it said "free of" a bunch of stuff, but _not_ corn... and the Candidase said free of corn but then said something else that made me nervous... and the then third one said egg.









ETA:
Ok- got one response back from Enzymedica (for Candidase):
"Are ('are' not 'our'







) products are Vegan and are free of soy, egg, wheat/gluten, corn, or legumes"

So maybe I will go back and get that one.

Yes all Enzymedica enzymes are fungal based (and no fruit sources such as papaya and pineapple which some are sensitive too) and have no fillers. Candex doesn't have proteases and Candidase does. Which means that the first is "gentler" if people are sensitive to proteases. I was when I first tried them, they made me hyper, but I got used to them and worked my way up. Proteases not only kill off bad bacteria but also the celllular debris from killed off yeast, and thus reduces die off.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

That is great to know - thanks Jane!


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Well, even with the vague responses, I went and bought some Candex tonight at Fred Meyer (I was kind of leaning toward the Candidase after Jane's explanation, but Fred Meyer didn't have it and I don't have time to go to the HFS this week.) So I guess we'll see how that goes! Keep fingers crossed that DD doesn't react to it.

Ugh- then I have to wait to start the EPO I just bought to make sure she doesn't react to that too. I'm on day 2 of my coconut oil trial, and she's already reacting







... so I really hope these go over ok.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

I just wanted to say, there is so much helpful info being shared here, and thank you! I am not dropping out of the thread, but will be gone for about a week and a half. But I'll be back!
Thank you!!


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## BookGoddess (Nov 6, 2005)

I bit the bullet and bought some Candex from a local hfs. I gave it to DD with a bit of rice milk. I only gave 1/2 capsule. She got very irritable after about an hour and started crying for no reason and wouldn't stop. It was so unlike her. We thought it was a die-off reaction. I gave her one activated charcoal capsule and in about 6 minutes, she was fine and in a great mood. I thought all the other antifungal products we were using was doing something but I guess she still has enough yeast to cause a die-off reaction.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

I thought that the whole point of Candex was that it's not supposed to cause a die-off reaction. Interesting. I just started taking it this morning, so I guess we'll see what kind of reaction I get!

Also, how old is your DD? Tell me about the activated charcoal- have you used that for quelling reactions and had good luck? I have been wondering if that was safe to give to babies.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

OMG- It's been about an hour and a half since I took the Candex, and I am DEFINITELY feeling a reaction.

My mouth is very dry, I feel bloated- gassy & burping, a little nauseous... just a little off. No, make that a lot off.







Definitely not a good feeling. Oh- and as I'm typing this, a headache has just appeared.

Is this a die-off reaction?!? And if so- should I just struggle through it, stop the Candex, or start with less (I took the suggested 2 caps)? Also, if I'm getting this much of a die-off with my first dose, does that mean that I'm just seriously overloaded with yeast?!?

I'm always nervous about reactions.... what if this is an allergic reaction instead? How would I know the difference?

I am really not feeling good....


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Sounds like die-off to me. It very very unlikely to be an actual allergy. I would take this as a good indication that you have lots of yeast to deal with and continue with the Candex.

I got die-off from Candidase even though it has high proteases in it. I have no idea why the Candex people say their product doesn't produce die-off symptoms. I mean, why wouldn't it? The yeast are being killed off and there are no proteases in the formula to lessen the reaction.

Don't worry! If you are too uncomfortable you could lessen the dose but at this point you might as well go whole hog at it and see what happens. Do you have any high-protease enzymes you could take? That is supposed to help. The charcoal that someone mentioned might help too. And lots of Vit C.

I've tried lots of yeast things (Oil of Oregano, GSE, enzymes) and the only ones that have given me serious die-off are enzymes. First when I started digestive enzymes with meals and then when I took the Candidase.


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## BookGoddess (Nov 6, 2005)

ChangingSeasons- The activated charcoal capsule I gave my preschool aged DD is fine to take. It's what hospitals give if you go with an overdose of medications. Charcoal can absorb more than its weight in toxins. When I suspect a die-off reaction, I give the activated charcoal mixed in some liquid. The pill is black so when it's mixed with something it looks very black therefore perhaps gross to some kids. I use a cup with a lid on it so DD won't object to the color. Activated charcoal isn't something you'd give everyday with supplements or medicines. It will absorb all those because it's not selective about absorbing just toxins so you give it only if the situation calls for it. HTH!


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joybird* 
Sounds like die-off to me. It very very unlikely to be an actual allergy. I would take this as a good indication that you have lots of yeast to deal with and continue with the Candex.

I got die-off from Candidase even though it has high proteases in it. I have no idea why the Candex people say their product doesn't produce die-off symptoms. I mean, why wouldn't it? The yeast are being killed off and there are no proteases in the formula to lessen the reaction.

Don't worry! If you are too uncomfortable you could lessen the dose but at this point you might as well go whole hog at it and see what happens. Do you have any high-protease enzymes you could take? That is supposed to help. The charcoal that someone mentioned might help too. And lots of Vit C.

I've tried lots of yeast things (Oil of Oregano, GSE, enzymes) and the only ones that have given me serious die-off are enzymes. First when I started digestive enzymes with meals and then when I took the Candidase.

Interesting. So my other problem is that I'm breastfeeding DD, who is still almost primarily EBF- so having serious die-off will just flood her with those toxins, won't it?

Ugh. This is so frustrating... trying to heal her and me at the same time...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BookGoddess* 
ChangingSeasons- The activated charcoal capsule I gave my preschool aged DD is fine to take. It's what hospitals give if you go with an overdose of medications. Charcoal can absorb more than its weight in toxins. When I suspect a die-off reaction, I give the activated charcoal mixed in some liquid. The pill is black so when it's mixed with something it looks very black therefore perhaps gross to some kids. I use a cup with a lid on it so DD won't object to the color. Activated charcoal isn't something you'd give everyday with supplements or medicines. It will absorb all those because it's not selective about absorbing just toxins so you give it only if the situation calls for it. HTH!

Good to know- thanks. Maybe I will go get some today.


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Yeah, it's a catch 22. But what else is there to do? If you have yeast overgrowth, they are secreting these toxins all the time anyway, which is perhaps part of the reason for your dd's eczema. I think taking a strong protease with the Candex will help clear out some of the toxins before they get to your milk. Also the charcoal, since it is not absorbed into the bloodstream. I know, it sucks thinking you are giving her even more to deal with. But you'll probably be nursing for quite a while to come so you might as well deal with it now. I might not say that if we were talking about a newborn but by her age her liver and kidneys are capable of dealing with more. You could also start taking some milk thistle for liver support. The benefits will be passed on to your nursling.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Good points. I think I will try the activated charcoal. I've very leery about trying any new ezymes (I know, I know... the Candex is an ezyme) because after taking my multi-ezyme formula from Kirkman Labs (hypoallergenic) for a month, I started reacting to it.









Another question- if I'm killing off yeast with the Candex, should I throw in some probiotics at the same time? Or wait until some yeast is killed off? I have some pretty potent probiotics in my fridge right now... but they also give me some die-off symptoms, so I don't know if it would be too much doing them at the same time.


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Hmmm. What kind of reactions did you have to the enzymes? Personally I would think that the benefits of enzymes in this situation would outweigh some discomfort from temporary reactions, but that is of course debatable!

YES, you definitely should be pounding probiotics right now and the whole time you're doing the candex, and after. While the yeast is being killed off you want to make sure that you're providing good new bacteria to take it's place, otherwise the bad bacteria will have no competition and they will latch right on. Super important. I would take the candex on an empty stomach and take probiotics with meals.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joybird* 
Hmmm. What kind of reactions did you have to the enzymes? Personally I would think that the benefits of enzymes in this situation would outweigh some discomfort from temporary reactions, but that is of course debatable!

Just all of a sudden, everything I ate started going straight through me, completely undigested (sorry TMI). Finally figured out it was the enzymes, stopped taking them, and I started digesting my food again. But I was VERY sick for about 2 weeks until I figured it out. I tried them again (just took one) a couple weeks ago, and my stomach immediately got upset... so I haven't been brave enough to go back to them.

I will start the probiotics today then too. Luckily it's the weekend, so if it totally kicks my a$$ with die-off, I can give DP all the house/baby duties.


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Okay now I remember that incident! Interesting that you got better after stopping the enzymes. Did you try any other brands? The first thing I think of is that the enzymes may also have been causing a die-off reaction. They are pretty powerful, and diarrhea is usually the body's way of clearing things out. But I guess it's possible to react to anything. Let us know how you get on with your regimen!


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joybird* 
Okay now I remember that incident! Interesting that you got better after stopping the enzymes. Did you try any other brands? The first thing I think of is that the enzymes may also have been causing a die-off reaction. They are pretty powerful, and diarrhea is usually the body's way of clearing things out. But I guess it's possible to react to anything. Let us know how you get on with your regimen!

Weird, I know... it took me a while to figure it out that it was the enzymes. And weird that it started suddenly after taking them for a month.







Oh, and no- I haven't been brave enough to try any other brands.

Another question that I just thought of- I'm drinking kombucha daily (and just started growing my first scoby!). Is there any issues of timing (like drink it separately from, or in combination with) with the enzymes, probiotics, food, etc.? Or can I drink it whenever? And will it have any effect on my regimen? (I'm hoping you will say that it will help... because I'm quite addicted now.







)


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

I really don't know about the kombucha. I love it too. I know there is still some sugar in it, but it is also so full of good stuff. I can tell you that my dd definitely reacts to Kombucha. I have no idea why though. Probably cleansing/yeast die-off. I should try giving it to her again but every time I do her eczema comes back. Maybe I will give it a chance to do its work for a while and see. Many times she has 'reacted' to something only to get better from it later. I guess if it feels okay to you then it probably is, which might not be the answer you were looking for!


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
OMG- It's been about an hour and a half since I took the Candex, and I am DEFINITELY feeling a reaction.

My mouth is very dry, I feel bloated- gassy & burping, a little nauseous... just a little off. No, make that a lot off.







Definitely not a good feeling. Oh- and as I'm typing this, a headache has just appeared.

Is this a die-off reaction?!? And if so- should I just struggle through it, stop the Candex, or start with less (I took the suggested 2 caps)? Also, if I'm getting this much of a die-off with my first dose, does that mean that I'm just seriously overloaded with yeast?!?

I'm always nervous about reactions.... what if this is an allergic reaction instead? How would I know the difference?

I am really not feeling good....

Since you reacted to Kirkman's, unless those had fruit enzymes like papain or bromelain, I wonder if you are sensitive to the fungal origin of some enzymes?


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 

Ugh- then I have to wait to start the EPO I just bought to make sure she doesn't react to that too. I'm on day 2 of my coconut oil trial, and she's already reacting







... so I really hope these go over ok.

Have you tried these oils patch tested on skin first?


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Since you reacted to Kirkman's, unless those had fruit enzymes like papain or bromelain, I wonder if you are sensitive to the fungal origin of some enzymes?

Yep, they have both papain and bromelain. Is that most likely what I was reacting to?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Have you tried these oils patch tested on skin first?

I have not. Will the patch test still work if it's an IgG allergy, or only for IgE?


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

Count me in.....
*I have a 28 month old DD who is speech delayed and has shown signs of yeast since her thrush at 2 weeks of age. She reacted a lot to my BM when I ate citrus, garlic, and other things. Most often her reaction was urine that would burn her, one time it even left a blister that didn't go away fully for 2 months. Only once did she spit up (that was when I ate a ton of garlic







). When we started solids at 8 months she began to get red bumps on her chest off and on. She also got really constipated from carrots, bananas and apples. I held off on grains till 14 months then gave her brown rice. When she gets too much fruit or bread she gets fermented smeeling bowels (like after a hard night of drinking alcohol). Her belly has always protruded, more after she started grains. She has never slept well, and has only slept more than 5 hours straight one time, most of the time she has woken many times at night. At times she would wake every 30 minutes. She is really speech delayed (maybe says a few words), and does better when I can limit the fruits and grains in her diet. She has been on a homeopathic remedy ( candida albicans) for 4 months now and does better the next day after receiving it (she will eat more and try to talk more). I have had her on CLO since 9 months, and probiotics since 2 weeks. Off and on she has had brainchild minerals and vitamins. She is very self-concious and reacts extremely to people leaving and getting cuts. She is an empath like me so I'm sure this makes it worse. I breastfed her till 2, have always tried to give her organic foods, she's never had junk food, and I try to limit her fruits and grains (which are usually gluten free except for the sourdough daddy sneaks in). I have taken her to a couple docs, but no real help. The last ND I took her to wanted to give nystatin. She also suggested this:

*Digestive Support - all products listed below can be purchased through New Beginnings at www.nbnus.com I have listed the product code next to the supplement name.
*Zyme Prime Chewable Tablets (ZYME-CHEW) - 2 tablets before every meal
AFP Chewable (PEPT-CHEW) - 2 tablets before every meal.
VSL Packets (VSL-3) - ¼ packet in water or stevia sweetened lemonade daily.
*General Support
BrainChild Spectrum Ultrasensitive Combo (SSUS-32) - this comes with both vitamins and minerals. ½ to ¾ tsp 3x/day. You can also mix this into stevia sweetened lemonade since the flavor of the vitamins and minerals is a lemon-lime taste. If you have difficulty getting the vitamins into DD 3x/day, divide the total daily dose into 2 dosages.
*Supporting Yeast Detox - purchase the products listed below at your local health food store.
Partially Ground Flax Seeds - 3 tsp/day; add this to smoothies, hot cereal, gluten-free baked goods. I add flax to GF pancakes for my kids. You do not have to serve them with maple syrup. She may just like to eat them plain with a little butter. Pamela's GF Pancake and Baking Mix is great for any baked goods.
Magnesium Capsules - Give DD 200-300 mg at night before bed. Open the capsule and mix it in apple sauce.
Activated Charcoal - 1-2 capsules per day. You will have to find a way to disguise this in some food.
Lots of Water to keep the bowels moving. The required amount for DD is about 15-18 ounces per day.

AND, when I told her no to the nystatin she sent this:

You can add some Candex from New Beginnings if you want to try that. It is an enzyme to help break down the wall of the candida organism so that the body can get rid of it. I know you are concerned about the side effects of Nystatin, which are rare and only have a chance of occurring with extended use (more than 6 months), but you need to take into consideration the side effects of candida also. Nystatin is the mildest anti-fungal that I can prescribe. From your description, it would seem that she already does not feel well and what you have tried so far has not made a difference.
In using natural products, you are mostly left with capsules and tablets. You can find some herbal tinctures for kids that are in a glycerite form so that they will take it. I suggest that you look at Sprouts to see if you can find a glycerite form of olive leaf extract. Or you can look online. If so, give her 2 droppersful 2x/day. Olive leaf extract comes in capsule form but you would have to hide it in food or teach her to swallow capsules which may be too big for her throat.
It is my feeling that whatever is going on with DD's bowels is contributing to her speech delay. Reducing the fungal load with an anti-fungal then keeping her on herbal anti-fungals to keep the levels down is a good way to go. The assumption that this is yeast is based on her history and current symptoms. We would know more by doing further testing. The stool test which you started to do is for determining the presence of parasites and bacteria - if they are there, we know what they are and can proceed with the correct treatment.

SORRY about the length of this post, as you can guess I am extremely frustrated and desperately need help. I want to do the most natural safe thing to help her. What do you think of the ND's recommendations (aside from the nystatin)? Are they any good? Should I do something like candex and charcoal? I'm a big worry wart and have the retention of a gnat (trying to heal my own issues that cause me major brain fog), and would GREATLY appreciate any help.
THANKS!!!


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Well, after my die-off symptoms this morning (after my first dose) from Candex, I wouldn't recommend it for a babe!! I'm feeling a little better tonight (haven't taken my evening dose yet), but still not great.

Calm is another mom on MDC that's been battling food sensitivities & yeast issues, and I know she swears by Nystatin. Search for the "...yeast is your friend, it is keeping you healthy.." (or something like that) thread. I know she was really for it because it's not absorbed into the body like some other anti-fungals. I'm not brave enough to dose DD with anything (I'm working on serious gut healing for me first), but I'm curious about your opinion of Nystatin (just in case I ever consider it for DD). Why don't you like it?

I'm also curious about your ND's charcoal recommendation. I thought that you weren't supposed to use it long-term??


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

I was always told that nystatin is harsh, and I'm a big worrywort. My instinct is that she doesn't need something strong, that just getting the right something will get it. Then there's the aprt of me that worries it's something other than yeast. We were going to do a stool test the ND wanted us to do, but it was over $250, and right now a $250 test is a bit much.
I honestly got the feeling she didn't know that much.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

I don't blame you at all- I'm a worrywart too.







Right now my hope/goal is that if I can heal my leaky gut, and stop flooding DD's body with poorly digested foods, in time her body can heal itself.







: (Oh- and also continuing to avoid her food triggers in my diet.) I'm just too nervous to throw all these supplements/products into her tiny body, even if they are recommended by a professional.


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

I know exactly what you mean about the supplements. I'm so tired of taking stuff. I'm trying to wean off my thyroid and adrenals. But I also realize that for some reason I don't hold iron and will probably be on some for the rest of my life.







I'm planning on getting pregnant in a few months so hopefully by then I can be off most of the supplements and my gut will be in a better place.


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## BookGoddess (Nov 6, 2005)

Changingseasons - Have you tried Houston Nutraceutical's TriEnza enzymes? It doesn't have papain or bromelian. My DD is sensitive to bromelian (pineapple) so we've used the TriEnza enzymes for a while. They've worked great for us.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BookGoddess* 
Changingseasons - Have you tried Houston Nutraceutical's TriEnza enzymes? It doesn't have papain or bromelian. My DD is sensitive to bromelian (pineapple) so we've used the TriEnza enzymes for a while. They've worked great for us.

I haven't tried any other enzymes. After being so sick from the Kirkman ones... I decided that enzymes aren't for me.







Maybe after a while I will be brave again.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
Yep, they have both papain and bromelain. Is that most likely what I was reacting to??

Yes it is possible, my DS does, and I have seen many people say they are too. Do you react to fresh (not canned) pineapple?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
I have not. Will the patch test still work if it's an IgG allergy, or only for IgE?

That's a good question, it's been very helpful in our house nonetheless.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
I don't blame you at all- I'm a worrywart too.







Right now my hope/goal is that if I can heal my leaky gut, and stop flooding DD's body with poorly digested foods, in time her body can heal itself.







: (Oh- and also continuing to avoid her food triggers in my diet.) I'm just too nervous to throw all these supplements/products into her tiny body, even if they are recommended by a professional.

This has been my approach with DS... to avoid most of the "killer" supplements. And he is still so food sensitive. Growing, thriving, teeth great... yes. Healed, not quite yet.

I don't know if I just have to hang on til the traditional age of immune system maturity, age 6 or 7, or what. Time will tell, but my holistic dietician really wants me to do more Candex and Oil of oregano with him to get to the root of the problem.

I will say healed faster and I did more of the supplements. Of course I do not have the IgE allergies that he does and an adult's immune system is different than a developing one. Just the history in our house.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Yes it is possible, my DS does, and I have seen many people say they are too. Do you react to fresh (not canned) pineapple?

Actually no... I was eating fresh pineapple on a rotation diet a while back with no problem.

Man, this Candex is KILLING me!!! Took it last night, went straight to bed... took it this morning, within 40 minutes- severe stomach pains (gas?).... I'm eating right now, hoping that will help!!

But wow- if this is gentle die-of... I can't even imagine what would happen if I took the strong stuff.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeingMe* 
I was always told that nystatin is harsh, and I'm a big worrywort. My instinct is that she doesn't need something strong, that just getting the right something will get it. Then there's the aprt of me that worries it's something other than yeast. We were going to do a stool test the ND wanted us to do, but it was over $250, and right now a $250 test is a bit much.
I honestly got the feeling she didn't know that much.

I don't know, I think her recs were quite good. Only 6% of nystatin is supposedly absorbed into the blood, however, who knows with a leaky gut. I still think enzymes are safer IMHO.

There is research on speech delay and vitamin A deficiency, see work of Dr. Mary Megson. I would give in form of high vitamin cod liver oil. Be careful with flax seeds and allergies at this age. Omega 3's from flax seeds are not converted very well in people with gut issues especially. Ditto beta carotene to vitamin A, that is why CLO is the one to choose.

Charcoal will absorb minerals and prevent body from using them too, only use away from food, such as last thing at night. This is hard to take outside of a capsule.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
Actually no... I was eating fresh pineapple on a rotation diet a while back with no problem.

Man, this Candex is KILLING me!!! Took it last night, went straight to bed... took it this morning, within 40 minutes- severe stomach pains (gas?).... I'm eating right now, hoping that will help!!

But wow- if this is gentle die-of... I can't even imagine what would happen if I took the strong stuff.









Either you got some strong yeast going on, girl, or fungal enzymes really effect you. Could be both in that case too. How much vitamin C are you taking? Psyllium or charcoal or bentonite clay will help die off too. I've never heard of such a strong reaction to it! I'm so sorry!


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Either you got some strong yeast going on, girl, or fungal enzymes really effect you. Could be both in that case too. How much vitamin C are you taking? Psyllium or charcoal or bentonite clay will help die off too. I've never heard of such a strong reaction to it! I'm so sorry!

I know- what is my deal?!

I'm actually not taking Vitamin C as of a couple weeks ago... I figured out a while back that DD was reacting to the 100% guarenteed pure (no buffer) hypoallergenic ascorbic acid that I was taking







, so then I got the TwinLabs sago palm C, and it seemed like she was reacting to that too. So I stopped all my supplements for a while, and I will have to reintroduce them one at a time until I figure out which ones are bad.


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeingMe* 
Count me in.....
*I have a 28 month old DD who is speech delayed and has shown signs of yeast since her thrush at 2 weeks of age. She reacted a lot to my BM when I ate citrus, garlic, and other things. Most often her reaction was urine that would burn her, one time it even left a blister that didn't go away fully for 2 months. Only once did she spit up (that was when I ate a ton of garlic







). When we started solids at 8 months she began to get red bumps on her chest off and on. She also got really constipated from carrots, bananas and apples. I held off on grains till 14 months then gave her brown rice. When she gets too much fruit or bread she gets fermented smeeling bowels (like after a hard night of drinking alcohol). Her belly has always protruded, more after she started grains. She has never slept well, and has only slept more than 5 hours straight one time, most of the time she has woken many times at night. At times she would wake every 30 minutes. She is really speech delayed (maybe says a few words), and does better when I can limit the fruits and grains in her diet. She has been on a homeopathic remedy ( candida albicans) for 4 months now and does better the next day after receiving it (she will eat more and try to talk more). I have had her on CLO since 9 months, and probiotics since 2 weeks. Off and on she has had brainchild minerals and vitamins. She is very self-concious and reacts extremely to people leaving and getting cuts. She is an empath like me so I'm sure this makes it worse. I breastfed her till 2, have always tried to give her organic foods, she's never had junk food, and I try to limit her fruits and grains (which are usually gluten free except for the sourdough daddy sneaks in). I have taken her to a couple docs, but no real help. The last ND I took her to wanted to give nystatin. She also suggested this:

*Digestive Support - all products listed below can be purchased through New Beginnings at www.nbnus.com I have listed the product code next to the supplement name.
*Zyme Prime Chewable Tablets (ZYME-CHEW) - 2 tablets before every meal
AFP Chewable (PEPT-CHEW) - 2 tablets before every meal.
VSL Packets (VSL-3) - ¼ packet in water or stevia sweetened lemonade daily.
*General Support
BrainChild Spectrum Ultrasensitive Combo (SSUS-32) - this comes with both vitamins and minerals. ½ to ¾ tsp 3x/day. You can also mix this into stevia sweetened lemonade since the flavor of the vitamins and minerals is a lemon-lime taste. If you have difficulty getting the vitamins into DD 3x/day, divide the total daily dose into 2 dosages.
*Supporting Yeast Detox - purchase the products listed below at your local health food store.
Partially Ground Flax Seeds - 3 tsp/day; add this to smoothies, hot cereal, gluten-free baked goods. I add flax to GF pancakes for my kids. You do not have to serve them with maple syrup. She may just like to eat them plain with a little butter. Pamela's GF Pancake and Baking Mix is great for any baked goods.
Magnesium Capsules - Give DD 200-300 mg at night before bed. Open the capsule and mix it in apple sauce.
Activated Charcoal - 1-2 capsules per day. You will have to find a way to disguise this in some food.
Lots of Water to keep the bowels moving. The required amount for DD is about 15-18 ounces per day.

AND, when I told her no to the nystatin she sent this:

You can add some Candex from New Beginnings if you want to try that. It is an enzyme to help break down the wall of the candida organism so that the body can get rid of it. I know you are concerned about the side effects of Nystatin, which are rare and only have a chance of occurring with extended use (more than 6 months), but you need to take into consideration the side effects of candida also. Nystatin is the mildest anti-fungal that I can prescribe. From your description, it would seem that she already does not feel well and what you have tried so far has not made a difference.
In using natural products, you are mostly left with capsules and tablets. You can find some herbal tinctures for kids that are in a glycerite form so that they will take it. I suggest that you look at Sprouts to see if you can find a glycerite form of olive leaf extract. Or you can look online. If so, give her 2 droppersful 2x/day. Olive leaf extract comes in capsule form but you would have to hide it in food or teach her to swallow capsules which may be too big for her throat.
It is my feeling that whatever is going on with DD's bowels is contributing to her speech delay. Reducing the fungal load with an anti-fungal then keeping her on herbal anti-fungals to keep the levels down is a good way to go. The assumption that this is yeast is based on her history and current symptoms. We would know more by doing further testing. The stool test which you started to do is for determining the presence of parasites and bacteria - if they are there, we know what they are and can proceed with the correct treatment.

SORRY about the length of this post, as you can guess I am extremely frustrated and desperately need help. I want to do the most natural safe thing to help her. What do you think of the ND's recommendations (aside from the nystatin)? Are they any good? Should I do something like candex and charcoal? I'm a big worry wart and have the retention of a gnat (trying to heal my own issues that cause me major brain fog), and would GREATLY appreciate any help.
THANKS!!!

I'll give you my opinion. In this circumstance I would not hesitate to give Nystatin of any of the herbal or natural remedies your ND has suggested. From reading her suggestions, it sounds like she actually knows quite a bit.

It sounds like your dd is pretty severely affected, since she is having cognitive and speech difficulties. I would absolutely do everything I could to get her gut cleared as much as possible. The longer her gut is in this shape, the harder it is going to be for her to heal. The ND is right, you really should be more concerned about what is already happening to her than the slight (and very unlikely) chance than any of these remedies will hurt her. They are all known to be very,very safe. That is why your ND is suggesting them.

She has given you same really good advice. I wish someone had given me all of that information when I began this journey. Truly, I would start with the Nystatin and then move on to the other anti-fungals, rotated. If you decide to do it, try to get the Nystatin in powder or pills that you can crush, because the liquid kind is filled with nasty preservatives, flavors, etc. I would absolutely introduce digestive enzymes. The only thing I don't see on your ND's list is probiotics, but you might want to wait with those until some of the yeast is cleared anyway.

Good luck to you both mama.


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## peelpower (Sep 6, 2008)

A few friends with autistic children (mild to severe) have attempted to redo their child's diet, making it gluten and casein free. I am just wondering how many mothers have had any luck in restructuring their child's diet? They say it takes some pre-planning and extra work, but they feel it is worth it.

Also, my friend has had excellent results with her 7-year old and mangosteen juice - it has really helped his speech, interaction, and gut issues. Check out www.autismimprovement.org


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Ok, I am D.O.N.E. with enzymes.







My stomach felt better after eating breakfast, but then (sorry again TMI) the big D started... which is exactly what happened with the other enzymes that I was taking.

I've been googling and googling and googling, and everything that I've read said that there are NO reports of side effects like these... so the only thing I can think is that my body just can't tolerate enzymes. Big bummer.

Oh- in my Googling, I came across this website which worried me a little, because it says that the Candex enzymes are cultured on a dairy base!! But then I noticed that the nutritional information and ingredients they have listed for it are completely different than the bottle... so maybe this is an old formula? Who knows. I will be curious to see if the company ever emails me back in response to my questions about what derivatives are used in the process.


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joybird* 
I'll give you my opinion. In this circumstance I would not hesitate to give Nystatin of any of the herbal or natural remedies your ND has suggested. From reading her suggestions, it sounds like she actually knows quite a bit.

It sounds like your dd is pretty severely affected, since she is having cognitive and speech difficulties. I would absolutely do everything I could to get her gut cleared as much as possible. The longer her gut is in this shape, the harder it is going to be for her to heal. The ND is right, you really should be more concerned about what is already happening to her than the slight (and very unlikely) chance than any of these remedies will hurt her. They are all known to be very,very safe. That is why your ND is suggesting them.

She has given you same really good advice. I wish someone had given me all of that information when I began this journey. Truly, I would start with the Nystatin and then move on to the other anti-fungals, rotated. If you decide to do it, try to get the Nystatin in powder or pills that you can crush, because the liquid kind is filled with nasty preservatives, flavors, etc. I would absolutely introduce digestive enzymes. The only thing I don't see on your ND's list is probiotics, but you might want to wait with those until some of the yeast is cleared anyway.

Good luck to you both mama.

I actually have a compounded liquid nystatin from a local pharmacy that did it for my daughter in my fridge. They said it was only good for a month but it has till 2009 on it (maybe it's only a month once opened). I really would like to do that as a last resort.
What if I added enzymes, like the ones you take with food to help break them down, first? I really want to help her, but again, I am so fearful of doing something I will regret. What would be the next step without going too harsh? The enzymes, then the candex?
Thanks for all your help, I appreciate it so much!


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
I don't know, I think her recs were quite good. Only 6% of nystatin is supposedly absorbed into the blood, however, who knows with a leaky gut. I still think enzymes are safer IMHO.

There is research on speech delay and vitamin A deficiency, see work of Dr. Mary Megson. I would give in form of high vitamin cod liver oil. Be careful with flax seeds and allergies at this age. Omega 3's from flax seeds are not converted very well in people with gut issues especially. Ditto beta carotene to vitamin A, that is why CLO is the one to choose.

Charcoal will absorb minerals and prevent body from using them too, only use away from food, such as last thing at night. This is hard to take outside of a capsule.

That's my thoughts on the nystatin, I'm fearful it may get into her system more because of the leaky gut. I ate tons of wheat when I was pregnant with her till she was 3 months, which was before I realized I was sensitive and knew better.
As for the CLO I was thinking of switching to Blue Ice but I can't seem to find anything about being 3rd party tested. I do remember the flaxseed issue, which shocked me to read her recommending for my daughter. Both because she is a child and I remember reading that children have a harder time converting, and because she already shows digestion problems.
What enzymes do you think would be good for my 28 month dd? Which are the least reactive? Should I start with food enzymes first, then if that doesn't work try candex or something similar?
Thanks for all your help Jane!


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

I think enzymes are a great place to start. The Houston's that she recommended are exactly what we used. Be aware, though, that there is an adjustment period with enzymes while they are starting to clear out the gut. It may look like things are getting worse before they get better and that is very common. My dd's eczema flared big time, her moods were awful, she had potty accidents and some other weird stuff. But after a week or two, the improvement was drastic. I started taking them too and definitely experienced some die-off.

Enzymes are completely safe. Have you looked at this website? It's a wealth of information and gives detailed explanations for starting enzymes, etc.

www.enzymestuff.com

About the Nystatin, you could call the pharmacy and make sure it's still ok. The compound probably isn't as stable as the regular liquid. If you are really against it, I would try the Olive Leaf or Oil of Oregano instead.

All CLO imported into the US has to be third party tested for impurities. The Blue Ice is definitely fine.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeingMe* 
That's my thoughts on the nystatin, I'm fearful it may get into her system more because of the leaky gut. I ate tons of wheat when I was pregnant with her till she was 3 months, which was before I realized I was sensitive and knew better.
As for the CLO I was thinking of switching to Blue Ice but I can't seem to find anything about being 3rd party tested. I do remember the flaxseed issue, which shocked me to read her recommending for my daughter. Both because she is a child and I remember reading that children have a harder time converting, and because she already shows digestion problems.
What enzymes do you think would be good for my 28 month dd? Which are the least reactive? Should I start with food enzymes first, then if that doesn't work try candex or something similar?
Thanks for all your help Jane!

All about CLO from Dave Wetzel who sells Blue Ice:
http://www.westonaprice.org/modernfo...nufacture.html

The Houston enzymes are very good, she may be sensitive to the fructose but you have to try and see. My DS couldn't handle the fruit enzymes, he did okay on the AFP, all fungal protein, versions of Houston's. Opening the capsules and mixing it with food is also okay but it's hard to do. When my son was 3 he learned how to swallow capsules.

I would start with enzyme with meals slooooowly, see starting recs from the Enzymestuff website, and then move to enzymes between meals.


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

so much Joy and Jane. If I could I'd give you a big







. Thank you, off to buy some enzymes and some blue ice.


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

Oops a couple more questions before I order....

#1 For clarification, do I get both the zyme prime and the afp? And do I give them like she recommended, 2 tablets of each before every meal?

#2And what about the VSL#3 packets for probiotics, are they better than her Natren Life Start, and the Ultimate Probiotic by Natural Factor with Doctor Murray?

#3**And should I give her the brainchild like she recommended?
_---BrainChild Spectrum Ultrasensitive Combo (SSUS-32) - this comes with both vitamins and minerals. ½ to ¾ tsp 3x/day. You can also mix this into stevia sweetened lemonade since the flavor of the vitamins and minerals is a lemon-lime taste. If you have difficulty getting the vitamins into DD 3x/day, divide the total daily dose into 2 dosages._

#4 Do I gve the magnesium and charcoal for detox like she recommended and for how long? Here's her rec's:
_----Supporting Yeast Detox - purchase the products listed below at your local health food store.
*Magnesium Capsules - Give DD 200-300 mg at night before bed. Open the capsule and mix it in apple sauce.
*Activated Charcoal - 1-2 capsules per day. You will have to find a way to disguise this in some food.
*Lots of Water to keep the bowels moving. The required amount for DD is about 15-18 ounces per day._

#5 I'm alittle confused about this part:
_"In using natural products, you are mostly left with capsules and tablets. You can find some herbal tinctures for kids that are in a glycerite form so that they will take it. I suggest that you look at Sprouts to see if you can find a glycerite form of olive leaf extract. Or you can look online. If so, give her 2 droppersful 2x/day. Olive leaf extract comes in capsule form but you would have to hide it in food or teach her to swallow capsules which may be too big for her throat."_
Do I just ignore it for now, or is there something in there I should be doing as well?

Again, THANK YOU!!


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## BookGoddess (Nov 6, 2005)

I haven't heard of anyone giving activated charcoal every day as another supplement. It's used when it's needed. And it needs to be kept apart from other supplements and medicines unless the situation is such the person is experiencing such distress and die-off that taking the charcoal is the best thing to do.

I use Zyme Prime for myself but it has bromelain (pineapple based enzymes). I forgot if you or your loved one is sensitive to pineapple but if you are then Zyme Prime isn't for you.

Nystatin didn't cause any reaction in my preschool aged child. It's safe and has a long track record of safety. Plus it doesn't have systematic effects. It stays in the gut. It doesn't go beyond the gut to affect other body organs. Make sure you get it from a compounded pharmacy because sometimes Nystatin has a lot of crap like artificial colors and flavors. Ours doesn't because it comes from a compounded pharmacy.


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

Thank you BookGoddess. I'm not sure if she has sensitivites to pineapple. I really try to limit her fruit because she gets pimply rashes on her chest, she starts smelling yeasty in her private area, and her attitude gets worse(along with the whining). I know she used to get burns from citrus, but I'm not sure if she does anymore. Maybe I will give her a test run of pineapple tomorrow.
The nystatin I have is from a compounded pharmacy but I'm holding off in hopes that the enzymes will get it under control.
Thanks again for your help!


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

No problem at all. The mamas here held my hand as I was going through this too.

Houston's will send you a detailed instruction sheet, but I started with one cap of ZymePrime with meals. After she stabilized on that I added in one cap of AFP Peptizyde between meals, and eventually added one cap of NoFenol with the Peptizyde. Like Jane, I also taught my dd to swallow capsules at 2 1/2 so we used the Zyme Prime capsules w/cellulose and the AFP Peptizyde capsules which have no papain/bromelain.

I *think* the Natren and Natural Factor have dairy in them so I didn't use those. Right now I'm using some from Kirkman Labs. The VSL is definitely stronger and will help with any bacterial issues she might have, and she likely does if she's dealing with yeast. I'd start with that.

I don't know anything about the Brainchild. Is it mostly just a vitamin/mineral? If so it can't hurt. I'll look this up 'cause now I am curious . . . Okay yeah it is a multivitamin. I'd do it.

Magnesium should be fine. Charcoal needs to be given away from any supplements or food because it will absorb nutrients as well as toxins. Other than that it is safe.

I'd start with that and then when you feel confident enough you can think about adding in the herbal tinctures. It might be best to start things slowly so as not to overwhelm her with everything all at once. Not that it would be dangerous at all, but it is possible she will be feeling a little discomfort, and also for your own self, so that you don't feel overwhelmed or nervous by starting too much all at one time. Once you have started the healing regimen, you will have plenty of time and space to push things further as you see fit. And it will help you to see what is working and what isn't.

ETA: *ZymePrime does not have papain/bromelain* but the other version called HN ZymePrime does have them. I'd go for the one without.


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## mommyshoppinghabit (Aug 9, 2006)

I think someone asked before in this thread, but is anyone else doing a cleanse just for general overall health, not for any obvious yeast-related complaints? I mean, anyone who eats a pretty mainsteam diet could benefit, right? But in that case, would one wait until after they are not nursing anymore?


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyshoppinghabit* 
I think someone asked before in this thread, but is anyone else doing a cleanse just for general overall health, not for any obvious yeast-related complaints? I mean, anyone who eats a pretty mainsteam diet could benefit, right? But in that case, would one wait until after they are not nursing anymore?

I did a psyllium/bentonite cleanse but I waited until my dd was 3 and not nursing as much. I don't know if you'd need to wait that long though. Neither of those things are absorbed and the bentonite adsorbs toxins and flushes them out, so it doesn't seem like it would be harmful to a babe. The herbal additions I would probably wait for though.


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## BookGoddess (Nov 6, 2005)

Yes, it's the HN Zyme Prime that has the pineapple enzymes, not Zyme Prime. Zyme Prime doesn't have papaya or pineapple.


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## Nanethiel (May 21, 2008)

Hello everybody!

changingseasons made me aware of this Tribe in another thread. Thank you, and here I am!

I'll try to keep this as brief as possible.









I'm 33 years old, my (first) child is now a little over 9 months old. Super nice homebirth, no vaccinations, no medications. Over the next few weeks we found out that he's reacting to almost everything I eat and I have been on a TED ever since. It's starting to mess with my head!









There's no way I would eat anything that would cause him having a reaction (it's not much I can eat), but I need things to change. I cannot afford to loose any more weight - it's starting to get/look scary!

We've tried a lot of different things and have been working with a wonderful doctor who specializes in immunology - he muscle tests, too! Barberry would have been really good for me, but you can't do that when breastfeeding.

So, thanks to Calm on another thread, I'm going to jump onto the "get rid of the (possible) yeast" wagon and give it a try.

I'm currently trying to figure out what to get/what to take. I can't do the Nystatin (sensitive liver). I was thinking of doing Oil of Oregano, a pro-biotic and an enzyme. It's going to be a challenge - my LO is highly sensitive.

And, of course, any advice from anybody who has been there is very much appreciated!

This might sound stupid, and I don't mean it in a mean way at all, but I am glad that there is others who have the same issue. I mean, it sucks that we have to go through this and I don't wish it on anybody, but I have been feeling so lonely and not understood, because none of my family/friends can truly understand how it is..

Anyways.. *hugs* to all of you!


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## Nanethiel (May 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nanethiel* 
I was thinking of doing Oil of Oregano,

Bummer. I just read that it has been known to decrease milk supply. Has anybody experienced this?


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nanethiel* 
This might sound stupid, and I don't mean it in a mean way at all, but I am glad that there is others who have the same issue. I mean, it sucks that we have to go through this and I don't wish it on anybody, but I have been feeling so lonely and not understood, because none of my family/friends can truly understand how it is..

Anyways.. *hugs* to all of you!

Totally understand. Everyone IRL thinks that I am making this whole allergy thing up. Ok, not really... but sometimes it seems like they think that way. And with no support from doctors (so far), it gets really hard. I wouldn't have made it through without the mamas on MDC!!!


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

I'm coming over here too. Time to get my gut on the wagon.
I had started taking acidiphilus once a day to try to start with healing. However, I started having dizziness, stomach pain and nausea. Has anyone else experienced this? If so, what is it and what do I do about it?








I went off the acidiphilus for now until I figure out what I should do.
TIA.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JacquelineR* 
I'm coming over here too. Time to get my gut on the wagon.
I had started taking acidiphilus once a day to try to start with healing. However, I started having dizziness, stomach pain and nausea. Has anyone else experienced this? If so, what is it and what do I do about it?








I went off the acidiphilus for now until I figure out what I should do.
TIA.

I totally got that same reaction when I started taking the Candex (except that I also had gas, bloating, the big D). Maybe it's just a die-off reaction??


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## LauraLoo (Oct 9, 2006)

I also had the same reaction with Candidase and probiotic. Bet it's die off related -- kind of like going through detox. I did read that die off can be kind of nasty, which is why a lot of people don't stick with it. Good thing I read that ahead of time, or I'd have given up.

I will say that I've been doing the Candidase and probiotic combo 2 hours before each meal over the past 2 weeks, and I feel so, so much better all around. After I finish off the Candidase, I'm switching over to a broader base enzyme for maintenance - though I've been contemplating adding Threelac instead.

Jacqueline R -- my suggestion would be to gradually get it into your system. How often were you taking the acidophilus? What dose?


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nanethiel* 
Bummer. I just read that it has been known to decrease milk supply. Has anybody experienced this?

My supply dropped when I took this, but my dd was 3 1/2 and we were quite ready to wean so it was not a big deal for either of us. I did notice that there was less milk for sure though. I wouldn't use it with a 9mo nursling. Maybe GSE would work better for you? I know that's safe during pregnancy and I did take it while nursing with no ill effects.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LauraLoo* 
Jacqueline R -- my suggestion would be to gradually get it into your system. How often were you taking the acidophilus? What dose?

Oh thank goodness I'm not going crazy. I mentioned it to my ND and he didn't know what I was talking about. He said "I've never heard of that before."
I didn't want to keep taking it not knowing if it was "normal" or if I was doing *more* damage, yk? I know I should read the cheat sheet, but I never seem to have the time and when I have the time, I don't seem to have the brain function. heh. Can someone tell me about how long that lasts?
I was only taking one tablet (supposedly containing 1 billion live cells) once a day. The "reaction" lasted for a fair number of hours after taking it- maybe I'll start taking it before bed. Then I won't realize I feel like puking.









ETA: I did also have gas and bloating, but no problems with stools. It's kind of funny since the bottle I have says "For occasional upset stomach, gas and bloating." I remember thinking "Uh... To _cause_ it?"


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## SAmama (Oct 13, 2006)

I am joining... again. We have been on this frustrating journey for two years now and haven't seen much change. We eat healthier, but it is time to deal with yeast, which I have been trying to avoid for a long time.

Does NoFenol do the same as Candex?
And, dd does Zyme Prime with meals already, has been for a while. Do I have to add AFP and No Fenol to the meals before I add it between meals?

Changingseasons, what probiotic do you use?


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SAmama* 
Changingseasons, what probiotic do you use?

I haven't really used one consistently... but the one I have right now is Pharmax HLC High Potency Caps.

And I wanted to say that I didn't quite the Candex.







I decided to stick with it after all the talk of die-off reactions. But I'm only taking 2 per day (morning/night) instead of 4. Even with just 1 pill this morning, my stomach was kicking within 30 minutes! So I just ate breakfast a little early (you're supposed to wait 1 hour), and that helped. I guess I just have to ease my way into the enzymes.


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## WildIris (Oct 22, 2007)

I'm joining too.

I've been taking enzymes (Enzymedica Digest Gold) with meals for several months now. And I've been on the fence about whether or not to do some kind of treatment specifically for candida. I don't have what I would consider to be "obvious symptoms" like a vaginal yeast infection or thrush. But I do have multiple food allergies/intolerances (avoiding corn, gluten/wheat, most grains except rice, coconut, the onion family, and limiting dairy and sugar) and chemical sensitivities. I feel like with the enzymes some things are getting better as far as the food allergies/intolerances. After avoiding dairy for maybe 6 months, and then several months of the enzymes with meals, I was able to add some limited dairy back into my diet (raw milk cream and a little butter) without having the same reactions as before.

But, my chemical sensitivities are getting WORSE, it seems. It's at the point where I just don't want to go out in public any more, because I am so reactive and always end up getting sick. Even at home, if DH or kids brush their teeth, then breathe on me, I feel sick from the smell of the toothpaste. Or fumes from products they use, or something they've eaten away from home. So it feels like I'm not even safe in my own house lately. I've just been feeling at the end of my rope about it all.

Anyway, I've been reading more about candida overgrowth and wondering if that's what I have. I did the "spit test" and it mostly sank to the bottom of the glass in a big cloudy mass. I also have very very dry skin, and dry scalp, in spite of eating a lot of fat.

So, yesterday I bought some Candidase and started with one capsule in the afternoon, and one capsule in the evening, two hours after finished eating. It was wierd, the only thing I noticed in the afternoon was that an hour or so after taking the Candidase I had the most intense craving for... butter!







It felt like a good kind of craving so I gave in, and ate some butter as if it was cheese, on some pecan halves (soaked and roasted a la NT). Only other reactions were a slight headache and some flitting thoughts of various candies which I can't eat anyway because of my allergies, so I counted those as "bad cravings."

Two hours after dinner I took another Candidase capsule and AGAIN had the butter craving. Very odd. But I didn't want to eat anything else for the day so I didn't. I also noticed some itchy skin on my abdomen and upper legs. At bedtime I drank some kombucha, which usually doesn't give me any kind of reactions any more, but this time about a half hour later my stomach was really rumbling.

I slept much better last night than I have in several weeks. I didn't wake up with anxiety in the middle of the night like I've been doing lately. I felt more positive this morning, instead of depressed. For today I'm planning to continue the Digest Gold with every meal, and take one capsule of Candidase approx. 2 hours after every meal.

I have a bunch of questions for those in the know, but I will put them in another post later, since this one has gotten so long.


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## cahwilson (Jan 24, 2007)

Hi !
I am joining this one too! My dd is 2 and I've posted about her before. She has extreme behavorial reactions and does a weird belly pushing thing that we now know is like a stim (not painful- just need for deep pressure). A year ago she was easily considered autistic, and now she does not fit the diagnosis. She has 2 good weeks and 2 bad weeks a month it seems. For 2 weeks the behavoir and mood is immpossible and she does her belly thing a lot and then 2 weeks she is easy and happy and no belly thing.

The biggest help here was GFCF and grain free TF diet. We were doing enzymes but I now cannot get her to take them for anything! We've done chewables, capsules, mixed, crushed, you name it and she will not take them...so frustrating.

We also do CLO and probiotics though I am looking for a new probiotic. Anyone know of something strong that is absolutly dairy and soy free? I love Dr Ron's but cannot afford it! This gut healing is incredibly expensive. Not to mention the DAN doc who doesn't take insurance.







: At this point we can only afford to help my dd and I know some of the problem had to come from me. Dd is taking Nystatin as well, partly b/c with an rx it's cheaper than any other yeast fighters out there. I did get the pharm to compound it with rasberry flavor and stevia instead of the sugary crap walgreens uses.

Anyways nice to have this thread going again!


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## amberg007 (Jul 15, 2008)

I too am new to this and have been reading reading reading. I will be sure to check out this cheat sheet that you all are referring to. For now I will offer some resources. Forgive me if they are novice, as you all seem to be seniors to this particular topic.

www.behealthy.org.uk/gaps.pdf - a link I got from a differnt thread

"The New Breastfeeding Diet Plan; breakthrough ways to reduce toxins & give your baby the best start in life" by Robert Roundtree MD & Melissa Block M.Ed.
-offers great tips for supplements, resources, information, & recipes

Specific carbohydrate diet - I have a friend who has her son with autism on this diet & raves about it

www.mercola.com - Dr. Mercola has excellent research, resources, & products















:







:


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## xekomaya (Apr 18, 2007)

*WildIris* - your story sounds exactly like mine. I've always been sensitive to chemicals, but after pregnancy everything just went insane. I'm afraid to go anywhere as I often get exposed to something and get sick for 8-10h+ after. All the foods that used to bother me just a little are suddenly giving me full on allergic reactions too.

I'm definitely interested to hear how the Candidase works for you. I've been wondering if what I've got going on is yeast even though we don't have any outward signs of it here. Well, I guess I did have thrush a few months ago, but the dietary changes I made for the allergies/gut healing seemed to take care of it.

Hi *cahwilson* & *amberg*! Welcome!


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## mommyshoppinghabit (Aug 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amberg007* 
I too am new to this and have been reading reading reading. I will be sure to check out this cheat sheet that you all are referring to. For now I will offer some resources. Forgive me if they are novice, as you all seem to be seniors to this particular topic.

www.behealthy.org.uk/gaps.pdf - a link I got from a differnt thread

"The New Breastfeeding Diet Plan; breakthrough ways to reduce toxins & give your baby the best start in life" by Robert Roundtree MD & Melissa Block M.Ed.
-offers great tips for supplements, resources, information, & recipes

Specific carbohydrate diet - I have a friend who has her son with autism on this diet & raves about it

www.mercola.com - Dr. Mercola has excellent research, resources, & products















:







:









Those first two things make me feel "what the hell must be in my breastmilk!" Ugh. Thinking too much


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Ok, so how much should my die-off affect DD? She has been SUPER whiney, clingy, tantrum-y the last couple days... and I feel like crap because of the die-off. So crabby baby, crabby mama. Not a good combination.


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## FireWithin (Apr 29, 2004)

Candidase/Candex versus TriEnza.

I am starting my battle with yeast. Dr. Houston responded to an email I sent detailing our issues and asking for suggestions. He suggested TriEnza. Does anyone know if TriEnza would do the same job for yeast as Candex or Candidase? We need to be pineapple free.

from his website:
TriEnza is the long-awaited enzyme product that combines the best of AFP-Peptizyde, Zyme Prime, and No-Fenol into one product!

Two (2) capsules of TriEnza contain:

* all the protease enzymes for protein digestion from AFP-Peptizyde
* all the enzymes (except cellulase) from Zyme Prime
* 1/2 the enzymes from No-Fenol (xylanase) for certain fruits and vegetables high in phenols

He suggested my 2 year old take AFP chewables.


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SAmama* 
Does NoFenol do the same as Candex?
And, dd does Zyme Prime with meals already, has been for a while. Do I have to add AFP and No Fenol to the meals before I add it between meals?

I used those two between meals and Zyme Prime with meals since we don't do gluten/dairy/soy and don't have a problem with phenols. It helped quite a bit and is good place to start with but I don't think the combo is anywhere near as strong as Candidase.


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
And I wanted to say that I didn't quite the Candex.







I decided to stick with it after all the talk of die-off reactions. But I'm only taking 2 per day (morning/night) instead of 4. Even with just 1 pill this morning, my stomach was kicking within 30 minutes! So I just ate breakfast a little early (you're supposed to wait 1 hour), and that helped. I guess I just have to ease my way into the enzymes.

Good for you! I keep trying to tell you that they are strong and require an adjustment. That's good. That means they're working. And you know, you are using some seriously strong enzymes so you could always start with something gentler to ease yourself into it if you need to. It was very rough with us at the start but so so worth it. The payoff is big.


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
Ok, so how much should my die-off affect DD? She has been SUPER whiney, clingy, tantrum-y the last couple days... and I feel like crap because of the die-off. So crabby baby, crabby mama. Not a good combination.









Are you taking any proteases or Vitamin C? Both will help. The proteases do some 'clean-up' of the debris from the yeast. Hang in there! I don't think you will regret it. But again, you really might want to start enzymes with meals before you jump into the heavy stuff. Are you convinced yet that you are not allergic to them?


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joybird* 
Good for you! I keep trying to tell you that they are strong and require an adjustment. That's good. That means they're working. And you know, you are using some seriously strong enzymes so you could always start with something gentler to ease yourself into it if you need to. It was very rough with us at the start but so so worth it. The payoff is big.

I was just a little freaked out because no one else seemed to have these symptoms (or nowhere as severe) from the Candex.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joybird* 
Are you taking any proteases or Vitamin C? Both will help. The proteases do some 'clean-up' of the debris from the yeast. Hang in there! I don't think you will regret it. But again, you really might want to start enzymes with meals before you jump into the heavy stuff. Are you convinced yet that you are not allergic to them?

Not taking any other supplements at the moment. DD seems to react to any Vitamin C that I can find (all supposedly hypoallergenic







). And the reaction that I had to the ezymes last time was after I had been taking them for a month! And I hadn't changed the frequency or anything.

So right now, I'm officially on one Candex per day. (I was going to do 2/day, but I keep forgetting to take one before bed.) I guess I will work my way up!


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
I was just a little freaked out because no one else seemed to have these symptoms (or nowhere as severe) from the Candex.

I was just at the holistic doc today and we were talking about this very thing. He mirrored my thoughts exactly, which are, if there's not much candida to be killed, there's not gonna be much die-off. It's when you feel the die-off that you know a yeast treatment is working. Not everyone who thinks they have a candida problem actually have one. I would take your symptoms as a resounding yes, that you probably do, and wouldn't it be great if that is a big piece to your puzzle and you finally get some answers and make some headway!

Also, I think many many people are not as aware of their bodies as those of us who have done eliminations and dealt with all of that. We are sort of hyper-aware of every single thing and can't imagine why or how everyone else isn't. I am shocked now at what some people consider 'normal', when if it was happening to me I wouldn't think it normal at all.


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

What do you think of this recommendation:
http://wakingsophie.com/

Would the zymeprime and afp be good enough to start with or should I give her the candex as well?


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joybird* 
I was just at the holistic doc today and we were talking about this very thing. He mirrored my thoughts exactly, which are, if there's not much candida to be killed, there's not gonna be much die-off. It's when you feel the die-off that you know a yeast treatment is working. Not everyone who thinks they have a candida problem actually have one. I would take your symptoms as a resounding yes, that you probably do, and wouldn't it be great if that is a big piece to your puzzle and you finally get some answers and make some headway!

Also, I think many many people are not as aware of their bodies as those of us who have done eliminations and dealt with all of that. We are sort of hyper-aware of every single thing and can't imagine why or how everyone else isn't. I am shocked now at what some people consider 'normal', when if it was happening to me I wouldn't think it normal at all.

So true- I do notice every little change in my body now, where I never would have before. I have noticed that the rashes on my legs have been flaring up the past couple days, and I haven't changed my diet... so the yeast must be fighting back! And yes, that would be awesome if this can help make some progress in my gut healing and our food allergies!!
I guess I am just loaded with yeast then.







Which always seemed weird to me- if it's that bad, why we've never had any issues with thrush, or vaginal yeast, or anything else.


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## SAmama (Oct 13, 2006)

Thanks Joybird. I think we will start with the NoFenol and AFP for her between meals and then move to Candex or Candidase. I should probably do those between meals as well. I did the Houston ones for a while, did not see any die-off or anything. In a sick way I hope that we are dealing with yeast. We have been looking for answers for so long now, it would just be great to know what we are dealing with and move on that.

For the last week I have been giving dd Eczema Formula of A Vogel. I thought it is a herbal tincture, but then later saw that it says on the bottle that it is a homeopathic remedy. I am so clueless about these things and should probably not mess with them at all. But, this seems to help. On their website it says that the remedy is for liver and kidney health, which is what I think dd needs. So, everybody that sees her remarks on how great her skin looks. Her sleep is terrible, mainly because she is so itchy - it is almost as if her skin is sort of healing and then the old skin is shedding. Hard to explain. Even though her skin looks super dry, it isn't red anymore. Hoping the healing will continue.


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## WildIris (Oct 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *xekomaya* 
*WildIris* - your story sounds exactly like mine. I've always been sensitive to chemicals, but after pregnancy everything just went insane. I'm afraid to go anywhere as I often get exposed to something and get sick for 8-10h+ after. All the foods that used to bother me just a little are suddenly giving me full on allergic reactions too.

I'm definitely interested to hear how the Candidase works for you. I've been wondering if what I've got going on is yeast even though we don't have any outward signs of it here. Well, I guess I did have thrush a few months ago, but the dietary changes I made for the allergies/gut healing seemed to take care of it.









Hi Xekomaya,

It's tough, isn't it. I'm at the point now where if I go out in public and get exposed to something, I know I'll be sick for up to two days afterwards. It makes me not want to go anywhere. Tonight I have to go to a high school open house for my oldest DD and I'm dreading it, not knowing what allergens I'll run into there. Sigh.

I will keep you posted on my experience with the Candidase.


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

Question on chewables or pills for my DD. I spoke with Dr. Houston and he said to use the pills and put them in her food over the chewables as it has "less excipient material in capsules". What do you think?

And what is better for a 28 month old, Candex or Candidase?


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## Chinese Pistache (May 29, 2006)

Quick back story: Four kids. First two are not allergic. 3rd born with abx during labor. She battled yeast rashes (not thrush or vaginal), eczema, and ultimately, we identified several food allergens. I clearly had leaky gut because she reacted through my milk. Now to a new baby. Born at home, no interventions. I worked on gut-healing his entire pregnancy. He's now showing signs of . . . something. Green mucusy poop that was escalating (first attributed to oald). Within the past few weeks, a small spot of eczema has appeared on his arm. On Thursday, I eliminated wheat and eggs. Eczema mostly cleared (I can see the spot where it was, but it's not raised, not red, it's just kind of shimmery and white). Had a bm and it was mostly normal. I was doing this:








THen, the very next day (yesterday) he had a big mucusy poopy diaper. I looked at my food journal for the past two days (Mon and Tue) and I'd eaten the same foods for most of the day: black beans, red peppers, rice, quinoa, and fruit. There was a bit of onion and tomato in all that. The big constants in my diet are beans (many varieties) and raw fruit.

I want to explore this idea that something about the fructose or insoluble fiber I'm consuming in beans and fruit is causing problems for me and ds. I know that fructose malapsorbtion can lead to gut flora imbalance and gas. Beans obviously lead to gas. What I don't know is what exactly is going on in the gut when it comes to digesting beans or other insoluble fibers and how that would transfer to my ds. I lended my SCD book to a friend so I don't have it to look at it. I'm not even sure it addresses what I'm thinking about.

Any thoughts for me? Obviously, undigested food proteins can cause probs for moms and babies, but what about sugars/fiber, and what's the mechanism by which it effects a nursling? Is it only insofar as the gut flora is thrown off by sugars/fiber, or is there more to it?? Of course, it's possible that my ds is having a reaction to the food proteins in the foods I mentioned, but I'm not sure that's the whole picture.

Oh, so I started on a stricter ED yesterday. Last night I had some buckwheat pancakes, and though they were good, a short while later, my stomach started to hurt. What's the connection??


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## WildIris (Oct 22, 2007)

*My Candidase report:*

So, this is Day 4 on the Candidase for me. I'm taking Digest Gold at the start of every meal, and the Candidase between meals (three times daily). I started with one Candidase capsule at a time and yesterday increased to two capsules at a time.

Noted reactions:
I'm sleeping better at night, but am still very sleepy during the day (taking daytime naps).
Some random headaches, general sense of brain fog.
Feeling kinda cranky, easily irritable.
Random times where I get very very cold; starts with cold hands, cold feet, then full-blown body chill that I can't shake for awhile. (I think this may coincide with taking the Candidase doses but I wasn't paying close enough attention to be sure.)
Occasional mild itchiness, usually on my abdomen or upper thighs. Occasional itchy ears (inside ears).
Occasional slight achiness in my lower left abdomen.
Had a sudden burst of increased libido and sense of wellbeing on Day 2, but didn't last long.
Occasional moments of being more relaxed and feeling like I can breathe easier.
Craving *butter* like crazy, don't know what that means.
No "digestive" type reactions so far.


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeingMe* 
Question on chewables or pills for my DD. I spoke with Dr. Houston and he said to use the pills and put them in her food over the chewables as it has "less excipient material in capsules". What do you think?

And what is better for a 28 month old, Candex or Candidase?

Ok I have been trying to answer my question on candex and candidase, and from what I have found I should do the candex. As for protocols to follow, is this a good one?
http://www.betterway2health.com/candidacandex.htm


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## xekomaya (Apr 18, 2007)

*Chinese Pistache* You've been son helpful to me, I wish I had a good answer for you. I have BTVC in front of me but it doesn't seem to include anything about how this process affects a nursling. It does mention that beans, depending on whether or not they are adequately soaked, can have more complex sugars, so perhaps that is your source of inconsistency? It does also talk about bacterial toxins crossing the blood-brain barrier so that is something else that would pass to breastmilk, if that factors in to the answer to your question.

I think we may actually be seeing some progress over here from water kefir. It's all TMI that I may detail at some time, but I'm starting to think that somehow I lost a huge portion of my gut flora - not just imbalanced but like, gone if thats possible. And I'm seeing some signs that it is coming back so I'm pretty psyched. My only issue is that my kefir grains are near death. Think I'm going to go post in the TF forum to see if anyone can help me save them


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

I need to order some water kefir grains and start that too...

Ladies, I'm really stressed about this Candex situation still and need some advice. The last 2 days have been like one tantrum after another (from DD, not me.







) Obviously, DD is getting something from my leaky gut that is bothering her. I'm almost positive that she's not reacting to a food (poops are the same, skin is the same, and my diet hasn't changed), but she's been sleeping like sh!t and just crabby as hell. So something is going on. The only thing I can attribute it to is my die-off from the Candex.

So what do I do? I really can't convince myself that this a good thing to do if it is affecting DD this way. But I don't know what my other options are.


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:

Ladies, I'm really stressed about this Candex situation still and need some advice. The last 2 days have been like one tantrum after another (from DD, not me. ) Obviously, DD is getting something from my leaky gut that is bothering her. I'm almost positive that she's not reacting to a food (poops are the same, skin is the same, and my diet hasn't changed), but she's been sleeping like sh!t and just crabby as hell. So something is going on. The only thing I can attribute it to is my die-off from the Candex.

So what do I do? I really can't convince myself that this a good thing to do if it is affecting DD this way. But I don't know what my other options are.
If the Candex is causing die-off, the yeasts would be releasing toxins into your body and some could be reabsorbed--that could be the mechanism for what's causing your daughter's irritability. I've seen irritability in both my kids when their circulating toxins increased (increased beyond the rate at which they can excrete it). If that's what's going on (could be something else, I don't have the knowledge to know, but I wanted to share in case it seems right), what I did for my kids was increasing their vitC to bowel tolerance (is there a brand that you can tolerate?) and I gave them modifilan, a seaweed product. I love it for sopping up toxins, it's helped us out on multiple occasions. Other folks have used activated charcoal, I think, but I'm not sure how that works.

If it's toxins, the other way, I think, would be to decrease the dose until the amount of toxins you're dealing with is less and your body and hers can keep up and then slowly see if you can increase it.

Best wishes in figuring it out.


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
I need to order some water kefir grains and start that too...

Ladies, I'm really stressed about this Candex situation still and need some advice. The last 2 days have been like one tantrum after another (from DD, not me.







) Obviously, DD is getting something from my leaky gut that is bothering her. I'm almost positive that she's not reacting to a food (poops are the same, skin is the same, and my diet hasn't changed), but she's been sleeping like sh!t and just crabby as hell. So something is going on. The only thing I can attribute it to is my die-off from the Candex.

So what do I do? I really can't convince myself that this a good thing to do if it is affecting DD this way. But I don't know what my other options are.









Any chance just by coincidence she started teething? Just because that happened right when my DD started ahomeopathic remedy and I thought it was the remedy.


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TanyaLopez* 
If the Candex is causing die-off, the yeasts would be releasing toxins into your body and some could be reabsorbed--that could be the mechanism for what's causing your daughter's irritability. I've seen irritability in both my kids when their circulating toxins increased (increased beyond the rate at which they can excrete it). If that's what's going on (could be something else, I don't have the knowledge to know, but I wanted to share in case it seems right), what I did for my kids was increasing their vitC to bowel tolerance (is there a brand that you can tolerate?) and I gave them modifilan, a seaweed product. I love it for sopping up toxins, it's helped us out on multiple occasions. Other folks have used activated charcoal, I think, but I'm not sure how that works.

If it's toxins, the other way, I think, would be to decrease the dose until the amount of toxins you're dealing with is less and your body and hers can keep up and then slowly see if you can increase it.

Best wishes in figuring it out.

Just saw your post after mine. I was thinking that too, although I have nowhere near the experience and knowledge that you do.
I was wondering, if this can release toxins, is it not good for me to do some candex if I plan to get pregnant in 4 or so months?


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TanyaLopez* 
If the Candex is causing die-off, the yeasts would be releasing toxins into your body and some could be reabsorbed--that could be the mechanism for what's causing your daughter's irritability. I've seen irritability in both my kids when their circulating toxins increased (increased beyond the rate at which they can excrete it). If that's what's going on (could be something else, I don't have the knowledge to know, but I wanted to share in case it seems right), what I did for my kids was increasing their vitC to bowel tolerance (is there a brand that you can tolerate?) and I gave them modifilan, a seaweed product. I love it for sopping up toxins, it's helped us out on multiple occasions. Other folks have used activated charcoal, I think, but I'm not sure how that works.

If it's toxins, the other way, I think, would be to decrease the dose until the amount of toxins you're dealing with is less and your body and hers can keep up and then slowly see if you can increase it.

Best wishes in figuring it out.

So am I doing more harm than good (harm for her, good for me) by flooding her with these toxins? I already cut back the dose to 1/4 of what they recommend... only 1 pill a day. I'm feeling much better than when I started, although still very irritable and emotional. My stomach hurts a little, and there's a hint of a headache... oh, and I've been sleeping really poorly too. But it's not half as bad as the first couple days I took the Candex (full dose).

So far, DD hasn't tolerated any Vitamin C (through BM), so I'm reluctant to try any more. I bought some activated charcoal the other day and used it when I was feeling horrible, but I can't take it every day. I'm already probably depleted on vitamin/minerals from my limited diet, so I can't chance it soaking those up with the toxins.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeingMe* 
Any chance just by coincidence she started teething? Just because that happened right when my DD started ahomeopathic remedy and I thought it was the remedy.

Nope, she actually just gone done with her last set of teeth...


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:

I was wondering, if this can release toxins, is it not good for me to do some candex if I plan to get pregnant in 4 or so months?
I _think_ that the toxins that are released are either excreted via the natural processes or they re-settle (and that's the part that hurts) within a matter of days (IME).


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:

So am I doing more harm than good (harm for her, good for me) by flooding her with these toxins? I already cut back the dose to 1/4 of what they recommend... only 1 pill a day. I'm feeling much better than when I started, although still very irritable and emotional. My stomach hurts a little, and there's a hint of a headache... oh, and I've been sleeping really poorly too. But it's not half as bad as the first couple days I took the Candex (full dose).
Shitty answer but... maybe. I did at least one thing that I _know_ was good for me and bad for my nursing son, and I strongly suspect another was bad for him (it was also good for me). Balancing the needs of two people is really tricky, I think even more so in your situation than mine, and I felt quite stressed about it.

If you're feeling bad, then this sounds like more toxins are being released than your body can keep up with. I've had headaches and sleep problems (have you considered melatonin?) from increases in circulating toxins. So you can address it from the 'release fewer toxins' side or the 'increase the capacity to detoxify' side.

You haven't found any supplements you can both tolerate, have you? I'm taking a set that are supposed to support the basic liver detox pathways, it's a mix of Bs, mag, zinc, actually a lot but bundled into just a couple pills. I think that's been helping me with all the stuff that my body's been dumping since I got my amalgams out, plus the extra stuff I'm drawing out while chelating.

The other part is, it may be appropriate to lower the dose even further, or even stop for a few days to give both of you time to catch up, and then start again at maybe the same 1/4 dose and see what happens. It can feel like slow progress, but the fact that you're taking this and something seems to be happening probably means that this is part of the problem--it may take a while to address completely, but you're on the right track. And this may be a necessary thing for getting better, just really, really slow.

Quote:

So far, DD hasn't tolerated any Vitamin C (through BM), so I'm reluctant to try any more. I bought some activated charcoal the other day and used it when I was feeling horrible, but I can't take it every day. I'm already probably depleted on vitamin/minerals from my limited diet, so I can't chance it soaking those up with the toxins.
Bummer with the vitamin C, it's been a life-saver for us. As for the activated charcoal, I think there's a time window around it--it will soak up nutrients as well, like you said, but not all day, so taking it away from meals (look up the timing there, I don't know it) should help. Modifilan is more known in heavy metal circles and I think it's only available online, so you'd need to read elsewhere--and it seems pretty new so it's hard to find a lot of info/experience with it. It's a seaweed and I don't know if you're up for trying essentially a new food, but fwiw, I have felt comfortable giving it to my kids for quite a while--I guess my son was a year and a half when we started? It has played a significant part in dealing with our health stuff.


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## xekomaya (Apr 18, 2007)

*Changingseasons* - how about epsom salts baths for you both? 2x a day is the recommendation on the pecanbread list for dealing with die off. From the battling thrush support thread, and some stories from pecanbread of nurslings having die-off reactions when their moms went on SCD for them, my gut is that you're better off killing the yeast and being done with it, than letting it release toxins continually. Of course, you need to listen to your own gut, not mine







And thats also assuming it is die-off and not a reaction - but it really sounds like die-off to me

Oh and if I can get my grains back up to full strength, I'd be happy to send some your way. It may be a while though


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Thanks you guys for the ideas. Maybe I will go get some epsom salt today!!

It is really hard for me to gauge whether it's die-off or a reaction... The mystery rash on my legs has gotten REALLY bad. I put some nystatin ointment on it the other night, thinking that if it was a yeast rash it would help it... and it made it worse!! Now it's super itchy, and it burns in the shower when water touches it. So what do you think of that? Do I now assume that it's NOT a yeast rash? And if I do that, then I think I need to assume that it's an allergic-reaction rash!!

I think I will definitely take a few days off from the Candex and see if that helps.

Ugh. This whole thing is just frying my brain. I'm so ready to be done with all this mess!!


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## ellasmama2007 (Jun 9, 2008)

sorry,cross-posted from c-section thread:

hi girls, i have been lurking on this thread, unable to grab a minute to identify myself







but i've been hanging around this subforum for months now.
i have an 11 month old daughter with sensitivities through my bm to so many foods it's out of control. i now am limited to some veggies, some fruits, evoo, salt, pumpkin seeds and walnuts. she only eats bm, sweet potatoes, prunes and bananas. she was a c-sect, 1 dose of broad spectrum abx to me after the cord was clamped. we had blood incompatibility and i had 2 doses of rhogam, 1 before and 1 after birth. i also took bc pills for years and was off them a year before conceiving. dd had, unfortunately, vaccines through 6 mos on dr sears schedule.

i take:
pure encapsulations: multi, ca/mag, coq10, l-glutamine, ( i was taking quercetin but it's derived from legumes so i stopped)

digest gold during meals, i just ordered enzymedical virastop for between meals http://www.enzymedica.com/products/Virastop

i take 2 tsp kirkmans cow milk colostrum, casein free per day
http://www.kirkmanlabs.com/products/...4_Spec804.html

i take 2 caps kirkmans lactobaccillus duo http://www.kirkmanlabs.com/products/...llusduo90.html

i take twin labs clo, mint

dd gets a smidge of the probiotics right now, we're trying to work up since we've had a rough go in the past trying probiotics with her.

dd started gastrocrom 2+ weeks ago. we are sending both our urines for oat and both stools for yeast/parasites.

she gets epsom baths daily.

i am still having random, idiotic (i mean idiopathic







) body rashes. dd and i seem to be over our random hives ( i also had angioedema , dd never did thank god) coming almost daily. she is not reacting to anything right now ( fingers crossed smiley) but her very mild reflux has progressed to pretty painful sounding and causing crying in her sleep. i dont want to treat it, because i've read so much about the harm we cause ourselves by treating acid reflux which winds up exacerbating the problem. let me know if you know differently, please! she seems to be more sensitive gradually with no end in sight.

i dont want to derail, but can anyone elaborate on the comment early on about l-glutamine being unsafe? i cant find info on that at all.
also, can anyone speak to the biotin question by firefaery? i would like to know more about biotin....

this is a great thread, greetings all







. thank you for any insight you have to offer.


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Changingseasons~

I agree with xekomama. I did epsom salt baths every day when we started enzymes and they helped immensely. They will also help dd's eczema. Use a lot, like 2 cups per tub.

I also think you are better off to keep up with some treatment, but I think you should go slower to put less stress on your detox pathways if you are really concerned for your dd. Although personally I would take the die-off symptoms as a good sign - the healing crisis that every naturopath/homeopath knows about. When illness is leaving the body, things will often get worse before they get better. I have witnessed this myself through every step of our healing. Have you read the 'low and slow' protocol on the enzymestuff website? I would back off the candex for now (or take a smaller dose) and start making sure you are getting some enzymes with every meal and then go from there. You have some pretty good evidence now that you guys have yeast overgrowth, so I doubt you'll be able now to just sit back and live with that, since it is probably contributing to your dd's issues as well.

You can also do some liver support like milk thistle or dandelion. Your dd will get the benefit of that thru bm. The toxins from yeast die-off will not re-settle in your body as a pp suggested. Heavy metals, yes, but that's not what we're talking about here. Your body has detox pathways and they will do their job if you support them properly and if they are not overloaded because of heavy metal toxicity.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Thanks joybird- I will look into the liver support. And I will definitely start the epsom salt balts!


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

*Me again. Can you tell I have adrenal fatigue....brain is so foggy.
I've been reading over the enzyme stuff site and all the instructions.
**Has anyone tried the great low-slow method?
According to the site I should start her with zyme-prime, then add afp, then probiotics(already on them), then candex or candidase, then a yeast killer such as GSE.
**Is this a good plan for a 28 month old, or too much?
And when I spoke with Dr. Houston he didn't mention no-phenol, just the zyme-prime and afp(to which he siad go with the capsule over the chewables because of the fillers, etc),
**Is no-phenol a better choice?
**And is there a difference in companies, is Houston better than Enzymedicaor vice-versa?
Thanks!!*


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeingMe* 
*Me again. Can you tell I have adrenal fatigue....brain is so foggy.
I've been reading over the enzyme stuff site and all the instructions.
**Has anyone tried the great low-slow method?
According to the site I should start her with zyme-prime, then add afp, then probiotics(already on them), then candex or candidase, then a yeast killer such as GSE.
**Is this a good plan for a 28 month old, or too much?
And when I spoke with Dr. Houston he didn't mention no-phenol, just the zyme-prime and afp(to which he siad go with the capsule over the chewables because of the fillers, etc),
**Is no-phenol a better choice?
**And is there a difference in companies, is Houston better than Enzymedicaor vice-versa?
Thanks!!*

We started ZymePrime (capsules) with meals and then added in peptizyde and nofenol (capsules) between meals. I didn't do peptizyde with meals because we are GF/CF/SF and it is mostly used to breakdown those particular proteins. Zymeprime is a good broad-spectrum enzyme. Later on we added Oil of Oregano or GSE with the Peptizyde and nofenol. We had great success doing this regime. My dd was 2.5 at the time and I know from researching that this much is fine for a 2yo.

NoFenol is not a broad spectrum digestive enzyme, it is only for breaking down certain fruits/veggies that are phenolic, but it also seems to work as a yeast killer if taken between meals. Houston's has another enzyme that I use for dd now and sometimes myself called ZyCarb. It is similar to ZymePrime except that it also has the equivalent of 1/2 cap of Nofenol. I use it if we are eating anything with grains or lots of carbs since it helps break them down. I think this formula was designed to sort of mimic the SCD, and you are getting the benefits of zymeprime and nofenol in the one capsule.

We use Houston's and Enzymedica both (Digest Gold for myself since it is a lot stronger). I'm not sure which is better but I like that the Houstons enzymes you can mix and match for whatever you're eating. I also trust Houston's because we saw such drastic results with them and he really is the top dog in enzyme therapy. If I had to choose I'd pick those. Although if you eventually want a stronger yeast -killing enzyme for between meals, I think Candidase is the way to go for that.


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## srneda78 (Jun 4, 2008)

I have a question about digestive enzymes -- maybe some of you nice people would have an idea about this.

Anytime I have taken digestive enzymes, I have gotten really ill. I at least get a severe stomach ache and then usually vomit once or twice. I tried Candex and the same thing happened, except in an even more severe form (vomiting for hours). I take probiotics regularly and have no problem. They have helped my gas/bloating/IBS issues, but I wanted to try to address the underlying causes (possible yeast, leaky gut, etc). But I cannot seem to tolerate digestive enzymes. I have tried low potency, high potency, and protease-free. I still react to them.

Does anyone know what is in them that would make me react to these? I have tried to find stuff online for the last year, but have been unsuccessful.

Thanks in advance.


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## LauraLoo (Oct 9, 2006)

*ChangingSeasons* --- I know this is a really elementary suggestion, but anytime a detox is done, a lot of water is needed to flush the system. If you are already drinking a lot, try drinking more.

I also think that the epsom salt baths are a good idea.


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## LauraLoo (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JacquelineR* 
Oh thank goodness I'm not going crazy. I mentioned it to my ND and he didn't know what I was talking about. He said "I've never heard of that before."
I didn't want to keep taking it not knowing if it was "normal" or if I was doing *more* damage, yk? I know I should read the cheat sheet, but I never seem to have the time and when I have the time, I don't seem to have the brain function. heh. Can someone tell me about how long that lasts?
I was only taking one tablet (supposedly containing 1 billion live cells) once a day. The "reaction" lasted for a fair number of hours after taking it- maybe I'll start taking it before bed. Then I won't realize I feel like puking.









ETA: I did also have gas and bloating, but no problems with stools. It's kind of funny since the bottle I have says "For occasional upset stomach, gas and bloating." I remember thinking "Uh... To _cause_ it?"

How are you feeling now? Is it working taking it before bed?

I've forgotten to take the Candidase and probiotic before meals a couple of times, so I've waited until 2 hours afterwards (which is the other option) and I find that I don't feel nearly as good when I do that. Last night, as an example, my stomach was grumbling so loudly and I had a lot of bloating. I took the Candidase 2 hours later and by bedtime I was fine. Not sure if that means that the Candidase is doing better work by waiting until after a meal, or if it means that my body really needs these enzymes before it tackles a meal....Or maybe it was just something else.

In any case, I'm now on a maintenance mode with the Candidase and will continue to take them until I run out and then switch over to a broader base enzyme for continued maintenance. I don't want regress!


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## Chinese Pistache (May 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *xekomaya* 
*Chinese Pistache* You've been son helpful to me, I wish I had a good answer for you. I have BTVC in front of me but it doesn't seem to include anything about how this process affects a nursling. It does mention that beans, depending on whether or not they are adequately soaked, can have more complex sugars, so perhaps that is your source of inconsistency? It does also talk about bacterial toxins crossing the blood-brain barrier so that is something else that would pass to breastmilk, if that factors in to the answer to your question.

I think we may actually be seeing some progress over here from water kefir. It's all TMI that I may detail at some time, but I'm starting to think that somehow I lost a huge portion of my gut flora - not just imbalanced but like, gone if thats possible. And I'm seeing some signs that it is coming back so I'm pretty psyched. My only issue is that my kefir grains are near death. Think I'm going to go post in the TF forum to see if anyone can help me save them









Thanks, xekomaya. I appreciate you looking. My ds is at baseline now, so I'm just going to give it a week or so before figuring out what to do.

Do you make water kefir? I need to do that. Where did you get your grains?


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LauraLoo* 
*ChangingSeasons* --- I know this is a really elementary suggestion, but anytime a detox is done, a lot of water is needed to flush the system. If you are already drinking a lot, try drinking more.

I also think that the epsom salt baths are a good idea.

No, I do need that reminder.







I'm really bad at forcing myself to drink lots of water. I've just never been a big water person... I did buy a big Kleen Kanteen so that I gauge how much I'm drinking every day though.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chinese Pistache* 
Do you make water kefir? I need to do that. Where did you get your grains?

That's next on my list of things to do too!! I think I might just order some, since no one ever seems to have extra water grains. There's a mama that hangs out in the TF forum- dogmama or something like that? She's got the red/brown/whatever color username, and her store's website in her sig that sells kefir grains and scobies and stuff.


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## WildIris (Oct 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srneda78* 
I have a question about digestive enzymes -- maybe some of you nice people would have an idea about this.

Anytime I have taken digestive enzymes, I have gotten really ill. I at least get a severe stomach ache and then usually vomit once or twice. I tried Candex and the same thing happened, except in an even more severe form (vomiting for hours). I take probiotics regularly and have no problem. They have helped my gas/bloating/IBS issues, but I wanted to try to address the underlying causes (possible yeast, leaky gut, etc). But I cannot seem to tolerate digestive enzymes. I have tried low potency, high potency, and protease-free. I still react to them.

Does anyone know what is in them that would make me react to these? I have tried to find stuff online for the last year, but have been unsuccessful.

Thanks in advance.

Hi Shannon,

I have been reading a lot about enzymes lately, from a lot of different sources and one thing I read said something about vomiting being an indication that there is a lot of yeast in the upper intestines, and reactions like diarrhea indicating more yeast in the lower intestines. I don't know if this is true or not, and I can't recall where I read it, so take this with a grain of salt. I will look at some of the sources I saved to see if I can find it again... but when I read your post, I thought of this, so I thought I would mention it.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WildIris* 
Hi Shannon,

I have been reading a lot about enzymes lately, from a lot of different sources and one thing I read said something about vomiting being an indication that there is a lot of yeast in the upper intestines, and reactions like diarrhea indicating more yeast in the lower intestines. I don't know if this is true or not, and I can't recall where I read it, so take this with a grain of salt. I will look at some of the sources I saved to see if I can find it again... but when I read your post, I thought of this, so I thought I would mention it.

I know that everyone keeps pushing that the more side effects you have, the more you 'need' the product... but I'm really wondering- isn't there any possibility that someone might just be allergic to the enzymes? I mean, they are derived from (or grown on, or whatever) foods, right?

I'm really having a hard time with this right now, because in the 48 hours since I've stopped taking the Candex, my rash has almost completely disappeared, I slept better last night, DD slept better last night (I actually got 2 & 3 hour stretches!), and there has only been one very small tantrum today. And I have the same symptoms when I'm reacting to a food- rashes flare up, DD and I sleep bad, DD gets all moody, etc. (Her symptoms are different when _she's_ reacting to a food through BM than when I'm reacting to a food, and she's reacting to my reaction.)

And I'm not saying that I don't have a yeast problem... because maybe I do.







But I do think that my body does not tolerate enzymes. So I think it's important to point out that one size does not fit all here... everyone's body is different, and just because a 'cure' worked good for one person, it doesn't mean it will work, or even that it won't harm, another person. Maybe I'm just bitter because nothing seems to be working for us...


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## WildIris (Oct 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
I know that everyone keeps pushing that the more side effects you have, the more you 'need' the product... but I'm really wondering- isn't there any possibility that someone might just be allergic to the enzymes? I mean, they are derived from (or grown on, or whatever) foods, right?

Yes, I think this is a very good point. I was actually thinking to myself, after I wrote the previous post, that I should come back and say "or maybe you're allergic to enzymes."

I think it's important not to rule that out. I'll tell you about the experience I had when I tried taking Armour thyroid. I broke out in a rash when I first started taking it...the rash got worse and worse, turned into hives. Everywhere I posted online, people kept saying they knew other people who had rashes from it but the rash went away eventually, that it was probably just a Herxheimer reaction, etc. I toughed it out for FOUR very long, very itchy weeks until I just couldn't take it anymore. I mean, it was getting so bad that my C-section scar (from 13+ years ago!) was raw and bleeding from all my scratching in that area. Two days after I stopped the med, I had a severe reaction to corn syrup...and at that point realized that I was severely allergic to corn. My hives from the Armour was because of the dextrose in it.

I'm bummed for you that nothing seems to be helping. I know how frustrating that must be. I think you really just have to trust your instincts on this one.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LauraLoo* 
How are you feeling now? Is it working taking it before bed?

NAK
I don't feel horrible anymore. I wake up with a funny taste in my mouth tho,


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## Chinese Pistache (May 29, 2006)

Big







CS for all your troubles.

Thanks for the tip on water kefir grains. I'll get to that as soon as I start to reintro things. . . some day .


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

I can't remember the mama's name either, but I happen to have a tab open to her store (at least I think it's the same mama's store- I found it in the siggy of someone with a different colored user name anyway.)
Anyway, it's called Cultures for Health.


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

**Is there anything I should give my dd(28 months old) once we start the regime(starting with zyme-prime) to help heal her gut? I know bone broths, CLO, kefir(trying to get some water kefir grains right now on the yahoo group), and avoiding gluten. But I'm wondering if there is anything else.
*Also, she has never had dairy other than butter, and I like the idea of yogurt for extra probiotics, but should I not do it in case it's hard on her?
*Final question







is the VSL #3 a good choice, or is there something better and not so expensive?
Thanks everyone for all your help, you give me sanity and peace amidst all this.*


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

*Oops I forgot about me. I'm planning on trying to get pregnant in a few months and want to make sure I don't have any holes left in my gut. I have been on digestive enzymes with food for over a year, along with CLO, and many supplements like magnesium, acerola extract, probiotics, some licorice tabs, etc. I still get belly problems, and often feel burning when there is any pressure on my upper stomach (about an inch where ribs seperate), so I think I have work to do.
Going off the enzymestuff website, what is the best(from your knowledge or experience):
1. Broad-spectrum ennzyme,
2. The best strong protease enzyme,
3. The best probiotic
4. The best yeast targeting enzyme(such as candex)

Thanks!!*


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeingMe* 
*
*Also, she has never had dairy other than butter, and I like the idea of yogurt for extra probiotics, but should I not do it in case it's hard on her?
*

If you want to do yogourt but don't want to do dairy and your dd can tolerate coconut, you could try making coconut yogourt per Kathy's instructions at kathysrecipebox.com. Just thought I'd throw it out there.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JacquelineR* 
I can't remember the mama's name either, but I happen to have a tab open to her store (at least I think it's the same mama's store- I found it in the siggy of someone with a different colored user name anyway.)
Anyway, it's called Cultures for Health.

Yep, that's the one! I think she mentioned a discount for MDC members in her sig too.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

It's dogmom327 and here's her exact sig









Save money & effort! Our yogurt & buttermilk starters culture at room temperature! Kefir grains & Kombucha cultures too! www.culturesforhealth.com 5% off for MDC members (coupon code: MDC)


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## WildIris (Oct 22, 2007)

Today I'm rebelling against the regimen. I lazed in bed all morning, didn't eat breakfast, and now at "lunchtime" I'm having a cup of coffee sweetened with Xylitol and some raw cream. I took my Digest Gold first though.







Soon I will have a hearty bowl of homemade beef-vegetable soup.

I'm discouraged and weepy today. (Probably a blood sugar drop from skipping breakfast.) I'm getting tired of popping pills (the Candidase plus the Digest Gold plus my other supps) and wondering if it really makes a difference. Mostly all I felt all week was tired and lethargic.

How much am I screwing up my healing by having a cup of coffee now and then?


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeingMe* 
*Oops I forgot about me. I'm planning on trying to get pregnant in a few months and want to make sure I don't have any holes left in my gut. I have been on digestive enzymes with food for over a year, along with CLO, and many supplements like magnesium, acerola extract, probiotics, some licorice tabs, etc. I still get belly problems, and often feel burning when there is any pressure on my upper stomach (about an inch where ribs seperate), so I think I have work to do.
Going off the enzymestuff website, what is the best(from your knowledge or experience):
1. Broad-spectrum ennzyme,
2. The best strong protease enzyme,
3. The best probiotic
4. The best yeast targeting enzyme(such as candex)

Thanks!!*

I have been going over HNI's website and Enzymedica's in trying to pick one for me and I'm thinking maybe I can just stick with the digestive enzymes I take. They are http://www.healthforce.com/product-digestion.html and the ingredients are
Ingredients: (High Potency) Each 2 Vcaps® provide:

Protease - 25,000 HUT
Acid Specific Protease - 200 SAP
Lipase - 400 LU
Amylase - 5,000 DU
Cellulase - 1000 CMC
Lactase - 400 LAC
Bromelain (from pineapple) - 10,000 FCC
Papain (from papaya) - 12,000 PU

Do you think this is good enough as a broad-spectrum one?
Do I still nedd a high-protease in addition to starting candex/candidase?
Thanks


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## Chinese Pistache (May 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WildIris* 
Today I'm rebelling against the regimen. I lazed in bed all morning, didn't eat breakfast, and now at "lunchtime" I'm having a cup of coffee sweetened with Xylitol and some raw cream. I took my Digest Gold first though.







Soon I will have a hearty bowl of homemade beef-vegetable soup.

I'm discouraged and weepy today. (Probably a blood sugar drop from skipping breakfast.) I'm getting tired of popping pills (the Candidase plus the Digest Gold plus my other supps) and wondering if it really makes a difference. Mostly all I felt all week was tired and lethargic.

How much am I screwing up my healing by having a cup of coffee now and then?

I hope you feel better. I don't know how much you're screwing up your healing, but I know if I didn't have a baby to nurse right now, I'd be right with you taking a mental health day


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chinese Pistache* 
but I know if I didn't have a baby to nurse right now, I'd be right with you taking a mental health day









Ugh. No kidding. I could really use one of those! Although I did give in and ignore all rational thought last night (for the first time in I don't know how many months)... and ate half a chocolate bar.







: My friend got it for me when we were just starting this whole allergy mess, because it's just pure cocoa beans and sugar. But it's processed on shared equipment, so I put it in the pantry and forgot about it. Well, things must have gotten moved around, because I opened the pantry door last night and there it was. I just opened it and started eating!







: It was a really weird feeling, to just pick up a food (other than my daily 7) and eat it...

No horrible results yet from DD...


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## Chinese Pistache (May 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
Ugh. No kidding. I could really use one of those! Although I did give in and ignore all rational thought last night (for the first time in I don't know how many months)... and ate half a chocolate bar.







: My friend got it for me when we were just starting this whole allergy mess, because it's just pure cocoa beans and sugar. But it's processed on shared equipment, so I put it in the pantry and forgot about it. Well, things must have gotten moved around, because I opened the pantry door last night and there it was. I just opened it and started eating!







: It was a really weird feeling, to just pick up a food (other than my daily 7) and eat it...

No horrible results yet from DD...









LOL! I have images of your chocolate bar crawling out from the dark recesses of your pantry to sit right up front for when you opened the door!


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
Ugh. No kidding. I could really use one of those! Although I did give in and ignore all rational thought last night (for the first time in I don't know how many months)... and ate half a chocolate bar.







: My friend got it for me when we were just starting this whole allergy mess, because it's just pure cocoa beans and sugar. But it's processed on shared equipment, so I put it in the pantry and forgot about it. Well, things must have gotten moved around, because I opened the pantry door last night and there it was. I just opened it and started eating!







: It was a really weird feeling, to just pick up a food (other than my daily 7) and eat it...

No horrible results yet from DD...









I'm right there with you. It must be a sunday thing. Right now I'm snacking on coconut ice cream and it's sooo good. If someone doesn't stop me I'm going to eat the whole thing, but then again everyone keeps telling me I'm too skinny so maybe I will.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chinese Pistache* 
LOL! I have images of your chocolate bar crawling out from the dark recesses of your pantry to sit right up front for when you opened the door!











It totally did that. It's a conspiracy.


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## ellasmama2007 (Jun 9, 2008)

one morning, there was a hamburger patty in the fridge that i had made for dh like 2 days beforehand. dh never eats leftovers and i am always left staring at food that i am craving so badly... i was a vegetarian before the allergies, but i wanted this burger so desperately, i ate it and puked it up. it was like 6am and that was how my day started. pretty pathetic right? i just want protein so badly.... anyway, enough complaining from me.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Sorry, haven't been around and don't know what's going on ... too busy breaking my bladder!







(see similarly titled thread in this forum)

Which might be interesting for some people to test salicylates for gut symptoms and sensitivity. I had TONS of bloating, not really gas, maybe it was intestinal inflammation? Anyways my upper abdomen was huge, rock hard and painful! I know it wasn't yeast b/c today I'm better and I have been eating carbs and some maple syrup for past couple days.

Anyways I'm just learning about the whole food chemicals thing and it's very interesting.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeingMe* 
*Oops I forgot about me. I'm planning on trying to get pregnant in a few months and want to make sure I don't have any holes left in my gut. I have been on digestive enzymes with food for over a year, along with CLO, and many supplements like magnesium, acerola extract, probiotics, some licorice tabs, etc. I still get belly problems, and often feel burning when there is any pressure on my upper stomach (about an inch where ribs seperate), so I think I have work to do.
Going off the enzymestuff website, what is the best(from your knowledge or experience):
1. Broad-spectrum ennzyme,
2. The best strong protease enzyme,
3. The best probiotic
4. The best yeast targeting enzyme(such as candex)

Thanks!!*

I think I will answer this differently since my experience this week.

*1. Broad Spectrum Enzyme:* Hands down, Houston trio: AFP Peptizyde, Zyme Prime, No Fenol. Digest Gold is very very good, but it doesn't have what Houston's does. I'm feeling now I never should have switched DS for convenience b/c I'm now sure he needs the No Fenol and that is why some of his food intolerances are still present. Well not really the ultimate cause but ykwim.

*2. Protease Enzyme:* Houston AFP Peptizyde or Enzymedica Virastop depending on issues. If viral issues are likely the latter might be better for between meals b/c of the serrapeptidase.

*3. Probiotic:* If you can tolerate dairy: homemade yogurt with super strains (Natren yogurt starter plus spiked alternately, one batch with one, one batch with other, of the following: Natren Megadophilus, Natren Life Start) _OR_ homemade kefir using live grains or the Body Ecology powder grown in raw milk. If dairy free, Pharmax human strain probiotics.

*4. Yeast Targeting Enzyme:* Can't really say which is best. Either Candidase, Candex or No Fenol. The Candex really worked for me quickly when I had thrush but I didn't test the others in the same way so cannot say for sure.


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

*Jane,
Hope you are feeling better, and THANK YOU so much for such a detailed response. I have a few other questions if you aren't super busy (sorry, but I'm so close to figuring things out).

1. When you say the Houston Trio are you speaking about their Tri-Enza product?

2. I'm thinking the vira-stop since my last test showed really elevated levels of epstein barr. Is there any risk with this product that you know of? Or anything else I need to supplement with when using this product?

3. Is it a good idea to go with the Candex if I use the Virastop since candex doesn't have proteases and virastop does, but if I go with AFP then I should go with Candidase because AFP doesn't have a lot of proteases and I can make it up with the candidase?

4. How long should I be on these products and how long before I get pregnant should I stop this regime for safety?

Thanks again!!!*


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## WildIris (Oct 22, 2007)

It's been over one week now of taking Candidase.

I am so so so depressed tonight.







Crying, sobbing, thinking irrational thoughts: i.e., my whole life is a failure, everything is bad and nothing will ever get better. The kind of horrible PMS-y emotional stuff I used to have on a regular basis but haven't had for a long time.

Any chance this is connected to yeast die-off, or am I just being a basketcase by coincidence?

P.S. Do not worry about me, I am okay, I will be okay. I realize this is transient. All will be well tomorrow.


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## xekomaya (Apr 18, 2007)

mm.. basketcase.

no j/k







I've heard a lot about emotional symptoms from die-off and I get them frequently when I change my diet (which is either some kind of withdrawal or die off). I would do whatever you can to support your detox and go to bed. Water/Green tea/Epsom salts...


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## xekomaya (Apr 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chinese Pistache* 
Do you make water kefir? I need to do that. Where did you get your grains?

I got my grains from the kefirlady. I'm only finally getting them to really grow with some suggestions from the TF forum. Dogmom's grains are less expensive and shes an MDC mama of course, so if I had known I would have gotten them there in the first place.

Fingers crossed I have grains to share in a couple weeks.


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## bluets (Mar 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BookGoddess* 
ChangingSeasons- The activated charcoal capsule I gave my preschool aged DD is fine to take. It's what hospitals give if you go with an overdose of medications. Charcoal can absorb more than its weight in toxins. When I suspect a die-off reaction, I give the activated charcoal mixed in some liquid. The pill is black so when it's mixed with something it looks very black therefore perhaps gross to some kids. I use a cup with a lid on it so DD won't object to the color. Activated charcoal isn't something you'd give everyday with supplements or medicines. It will absorb all those because it's not selective about absorbing just toxins so you give it only if the situation calls for it. HTH!


when our ND recommends either Candex or Candidase, he also recommends activated charcoal to go along with it. in fact, we use activated charcoal for any tummy upset, including incidental gluten exposure.


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## gilamama (Aug 9, 2005)

can yyou guys help me? or reassure me?

i am a hormonal pregnant lady at the moment and i am a little worried.

I have no ND or something to turn to and i am tired of making all the health decisions for my family.

i have been lurking occationally on the HTG threads for years now since like the second one. originally for my dh then for my dd2 then my dd1 and now for me. why did it take me 2 1/2 years of healing my dd's guts and eliminating foods from my diet so as not to LEAK them into my milk to realize that I must also hae gut problems? i dont know.

anyway, we recently started enzyes and then moved and i couldnt keep up so we are on them again. i'd love to hear advise abt what to take and when... we use houstons.

So we'll start with me. I am 6 months pregnant, is there anything i shouldnt do b/c of that (like peptizide and no phenol btwn meals?) I had always been a gassy person but that was it. When my 2nd dd was born i cut out dairy within a few days and wheat within a few months i was no longer gassy and her exema and runny poops improved but not totally. At almost 2 yo she and i went off gluten and her exema disappeared and her speech took off. Her poops have improved gradually (but are soft now from starting enzymes again) and her cradle cap is usually gone. I didnt see any difference in myself when cutting out gluten (it was just spelt and rye at that point). Now dd2 was mostly weaned except for naptime when she nurses my colostrum and she wasnt naping for a while so we werent nursing. during that time i started eating yogurt and rye or spelt bread again with peptizide. it was so easy and so filling and i loved that. but then the dairy started bothering me. and then a few days later i ate some bread with no enzymes and spent a day in bed with braxton hicks and stomach cramps. So I have eaten rye bread since with enzymes but i am stopping. I just think it is safer for me and my fetus. well i stopped already i guess. I am taking zyme prime with meals now. my dd2 is 2 1/2 and gfcf and is taking zyme prime with meals and my dd1 is off wheat, dairy except butter, corn, chocolate and sugar (me and dd2 eat some sugar but only a few x a week in pacaged things). none of us eat soy. she is also taking zyme prime with meals except snack in kindergarden which is like a meal. i was planning to wait till they even out from the zyme prime and then start with peptizide at bed time. should i also add no phenol? i dont know if we have yeast problems. i think dd1 did, but i think it is gone. my dh does majorly but that is another story. mine and dd1's spit always floted on top bubbly with the spit test. nothing like dh's stringy spit. maybe we'll check tomorow.

I also give a really good probiotic 1st think in the am. for like 2 yrs now. I take it too with l-glutamine.

thanks for any feed back.

ETA do you think it is ok to take the glutamine? i read once that julia ross who wrote the diet cure anyway that she said not to take amino acids during pregnancy.

Also i think i have fibrocystic breasts or breast absesses from mastitis that never healed. does anyone know of a connection between thyroid health, breast health and gut health. specifically gluten "intolerance" and thyroid issues?


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## WildIris (Oct 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gilamama* 
does anyone know of a connection between thyroid health, breast health and gut health. specifically gluten "intolerance" and thyroid issues?

I'm sorry I don't have answers to your other questions, but about this one... yes, I have seen many articles linking gluten intolerance and disruption to the endocrine system. Many people with autoimmune disease, in general, benefit from a gluten free diet.

I'm sorry I don't have specific links for you, but I'm sure if you do a google search on gluten + endocrine, you would come up with a lot of info.


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## WildIris (Oct 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WildIris* 
It's been over one week now of taking Candidase.

I am so so so depressed tonight.







Crying, sobbing, thinking irrational thoughts: i.e., my whole life is a failure, everything is bad and nothing will ever get better. The kind of horrible PMS-y emotional stuff I used to have on a regular basis but haven't had for a long time.

Any chance this is connected to yeast die-off, or am I just being a basketcase by coincidence?.


Update: I figured out my emotional crash last night was NOT die-off, I was having an allergic reaction. I realized it when I had the same thing happen tonight. The culprit: an avocado! I ate half for dinner last night, the other half tonight. Same emotional upheaval tonight, plus irritability, headache, face rash, and throat tightening clued me in. I looked up the brand name from the sticker on the avocado and found out these are ripened in a "ripening room" with ethylene gas = CORN. Argghhh! Stupid







corn.

At least I know what's going on, and one more thing to avoid.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeingMe* 

1. When you say the Houston Trio are you speaking about their Tri-Enza product?

No, the recommended dosage of 2 capsules of Trienza is still lacking full amount in one capsule of No Fenol. Which if you are sensitive to phenols and salicylates like we are, and my little bladder test last week illustrated, Trienza might not be "the best" and you asked for "the best"!









HOWEVER there is evidence that No Fenol works in lower dosages for some people, so Trienza *might* be the best but I don't know enough to say that yet, or for your particular circumstance. It *does* contain the full amount of Peptizyde and that is very important if you are eating wheat and dairy. Note 2 capsules is dosage.

I still think at this point I will redo my little experiement a month from now *with* the No Fenol to see how well it works on salicylates. And test DS with it too (not overload him though, I would just love for him to sleep more soundly on small amounts of certain fruits/veg that he is obviously sensitive to!) At least that is my current thinking if my bladder still gets better everyday as it has been doing.

2. I'm thinking the vira-stop since my last test showed really elevated levels of epstein barr. Is there any risk with this product that you know of? Or anything else I need to supplement with when using this product?

Yes absolutely!! I would sincerely recommend ramping up the Virastop. Karen's trials were based on a very large amount of capsules/day. I believe she said you could contact Enzymedica for higher dosage pills at lower cost for a viral trial.

I don't think there are risks per se, but you might want to check Karen DeFelice's Enzymes and Autism Yahoo group to see if they have discussed this. Or ask a question, the group is not just for autism. Proteases work with the immune system and healing crises are not dangerous as I understand it.

3. Is it a good idea to go with the Candex if I use the Virastop since candex doesn't have proteases and virastop does, but if I go with AFP then I should go with Candidase because AFP doesn't have a lot of proteases and I can make it up with the candidase?

Whew, had to read that several times!









AFP Peptizyde has a lot of proteases. But since you have a known viral issue I would go with Virastop since it has *special* kinds of proteases that have been shown to be effective on viruses. See viral info at www.enzymestuff.com

The AFP Peptizyde should be taken with gluten and casein since it is the best on the market at breaking them down, contains the most DPP IV activity. Digest Gold has some but not as high as the Houston AFP Peptizyde. It also works on other food proteins, breaking them into amino acids like a strong gut would do naturally, so it helps with low amino issues (mood) too. It is not like taking separate aa's like Julia Ross recommends but it can work in the same way.

In addition take Virastop between meals (2 hrs after or 1 hr. before eating).

4. How long should I be on these products and how long before I get pregnant should I stop this regime for safety?

Hard to say. The Houston trio is safe for pg, Dr. Houston has talked about this many times. Personally I wouldn't take a chance and I would be on them throughout. Many people on that Yahoo group have, you might check them about this issue. Don't know about Virastop. I would read more about that, her new book might be helpful in explaining it for you.

My instinct would tell me you want to take care of viral issues before getting pg and not during. However, I don't know much about the life cycle and control of them esp. Ep Barr. I should since I had mono in college so please do share if you find out anything interesting!


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WildIris* 
I have seen many articles linking gluten intolerance and disruption to the endocrine system. Many people with autoimmune disease, in general, benefit from a gluten free diet.

www.enterolab.com article "Before the Villi are Gone"

My holistic dietician is working with Neuroscience too now, their site might have more info as I know this has been their experience as well. I might go to a talk next month on this too will report if so.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Gilamama,

I gotta run but wanted to say this book is a must read on breast health, fibrocystic disease and thyroid health. Fibro's disappear completely with adequate iodine.
http://www.drbrownstein.com/singleproduct.asp?id=787
Dr. Guy Abraham maker of Iodoral also has good info on his site.
http://www.optimox.com/pics/Iodine/opt_Iodoral.htm

The thyroid runs on the amino acid tyrosine plus iodine. And re: breast cancer, iodine is crucial for prevention.


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## gilamama (Aug 9, 2005)

whoa are you serious i took tyrosine after my last pregnancy to help with mild ppd anxiety and well...







interest in sex.

i saw you rec that article after the villi are gone on a dift thread but i couldnt find articles on the enterolabs site. i will look again.

Jane do you have any insight into why a malfunctioning thyroid would make a person unable to digest gluten properly (this is just curiosity, if i can get my family healthy i dont really care why it works







).


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

*Jane,

Wow what a response, thank you. Sorry about the wordiness, can you tell I've been reading too much








I finally took the plunge today and ordered most of my supplements. I got my daughter the Zyme Prime Powder, AFP Powder, Candex, VSL#3, and Brainchild supplements. The only things I need for her are maybe some biotin and no phenol

*What are your thoughts on Biotin?

*As for CLO, I was almost gonna order the CLO/BO mix but dh said we have 4 more bottles of Nordic(stocked up during a sale). Would giving her buter oil with the nordic do much? Or is it not worth the cost to mix it with nordic? I believe she might have a vitamin A deficiency, and possible some others.

*Anything else I'm missing for her?

As for me, I went ahead and ordered the TriEnza, but planning on alternating it with another broad-spectrum, or supplementing it with more no-phenol. I have yet to get the Virastop, waiting on an answer from enzymedica. I plan on swiping some of my daughters Candex and then rotating in some candidase. The only thing I don't have for me is a great probiotic, right now I use Jarrow, but I know it's nothing like her VSL, but then again, we always do better for our little ones right







I'm not planning on antifungals at this moment, hoping we can avoid them.

*Should I supplement with Biotin?

*Anything else I'm missing?

Again, THANK YOU for all your help. I hope your feeling better







*


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## BookGoddess (Nov 6, 2005)

That was a very helpful post, Jane!
Do you find Pharmax probiotics to be better than Klaire probiotics? If so, why? Our doctor recommended we use Klaire products so that's what we've used but if Pharmax has stronger probiotics, I'm very interested.

DD's latest stool microbiology test result showed we had increased her beneficial bacteria levels but now she has two types of bad bacteria at 4+ levels (pseudomonas and acinetobacter baumanii) that weren't there before!


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## SAmama (Oct 13, 2006)

So, I don't post much and won't have a lot of time to post in the next week or so, but I do lurk... a LOT.

We started dd (28 mos) on enzymes between meals and got more diligent with the probiotics. At first her skin looked great, but I think it was because of an herbal tincture that she is taking that is supposed to help liver and kidney function. She still had eczema, especially on her legs, but it looked less angry. Then, after a few days on the enzymes, her eczema got much worse. That was preceded by horrific sleep (not a good sleeper anyway, but now she wakes up every hour and mostly sleeps latched on to me the whole night), tantrums and just weird emotional stuff. Her poops are also terrible - runny, sometimes really pale, sometimes dark green. Not that she has been a good pooper either, but this is worse than "normal". Saw one solid poop, first one in months. Then the mess returned. So... is this die-off? I can feel so sure when I read other people's posts, but now that we are probably dealing with it I wonder if she is just reacting to something that I am completely missing. If it is die-off, when does it get better? I have to get some sleep at some point!


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Jane,

When you reference your dietician is that Brenda? Has she been helpful in charting the yeast trail or have you don't that all by yourself. I guess I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed doing it on my own especially since I think both the kids & I have yeast. I'm sure I should do different regimens based on age & issues so it would be helpful to have a provider to offer advice.

Of course, I'm sure the people on this board know more than any of the providers around so I should just read the thread and pllunge right in. I'm not sure why I'm hesitant. Sleep deprivation perhaps.


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## gilamama (Aug 9, 2005)

i've been doing this on my own for a while and it is intimidating me right now too.\
My dd2 is not having such a reaction to the enzymes which is good, my dd2 comes home from kindy so cranky and is so exhausted and passes out by 730 for 2 nights in a row now. She slept 11 hrs last night. That is what i think she needs but she had been sleeping from like 830 -550 lately. ugh!

I am also better today, less braxton hicks more baby movement. Not HTG related but i think my baby might have turned this morning.







:

I dont remember who i am responding to but we did not start the AFP peptizide right away with my dds this time, i did that the first time for like 3 days with my dd2 who is 2.5 and she had horrible stomach pain. It was







. When I started after a few weeks of being on zyme prime with meals it was very smooth.

my dd1 is getting very cleaned out just taking zyme prime with lunch and dinner. She had 3 bowel movements today. Alot of garbage on its way out!

Do you guys give your kids glutamine? How do they take it?

My girls take probiotic powder strait - they like it. I mix the enzymes with carob spread that i make b4 meals. if i were to sprinkle it on the food i think the food would taste icky. your experience?

I spoke with a canadian trained ND here (we are in Israel) today. I dont think I am going to consult with her. I dont have the money to pay someone who might not be helpful. I dont want someone who looks at things differently than i do.

i want to figure out this thyroid thing. I am going to get some iodine tomorrow G-d willing to try and do a patch test. but then I dont know what i would do with that info. i dont have so many symptoms but i dont want to get any more.







I have for the 2 cycles b4 this preg and the 6 before my last one had like 45 day cycles, I have these breast issues, I have anxiety and a little depression, I fly off the handle, but my weight is stable, my skin and hair seem normal to me, although i did noticemy hair is falling out during this pregnancy, usually it stops doing that when i get pregnant untill the very end. And of course I forgot to mention that I am forgetful







. SHould I test my kids too? I just feel like iodine supplementation can be scary to do on your own.


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## ellasmama2007 (Jun 9, 2008)

does anyone have a reliably hypoallergenic activated charcoal?


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## cahwilson (Jan 24, 2007)

Ok this may have been covered, but when do you do the no-fenol? If you are taking zyme prime, afp peptyzide, and no fenol, which go with meals and what goes in between?


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## Chinese Pistache (May 29, 2006)

Thoughts on consuming liquids with meals?

Is this a bad thing, especially when you're taking enzymes? I have this pavlovian drive to drink water when I eat, but I was thinking that it probably dilutes the enzymes and makes them less effective. What do you think?


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## BookGoddess (Nov 6, 2005)

Jane - One more question (don't cringe!







), what are you thoughts on taking a probiotic that has FOS (Fructooligosaccharides) when one has bad bacteria in the gut? Wouldn't the FOS help the bad bacteria thrive as well? I saw some great Pharmax probiotics that has FOS but perhaps we should get a Pharmax probiotic that doesn't have FOS and there were some like that in their line.


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SAmama* 
So, I don't post much and won't have a lot of time to post in the next week or so, but I do lurk... a LOT.

We started dd (28 mos) on enzymes between meals and got more diligent with the probiotics. At first her skin looked great, but I think it was because of an herbal tincture that she is taking that is supposed to help liver and kidney function. She still had eczema, especially on her legs, but it looked less angry. Then, after a few days on the enzymes, her eczema got much worse. That was preceded by horrific sleep (not a good sleeper anyway, but now she wakes up every hour and mostly sleeps latched on to me the whole night), tantrums and just weird emotional stuff. Her poops are also terrible - runny, sometimes really pale, sometimes dark green. Not that she has been a good pooper either, but this is worse than "normal". Saw one solid poop, first one in months. Then the mess returned. So... is this die-off? I can feel so sure when I read other people's posts, but now that we are probably dealing with it I wonder if she is just reacting to something that I am completely missing. If it is die-off, when does it get better? I have to get some sleep at some point!

I always have to respond when I see a post like this because when my dd started enzymes it was very messy. Her eczema got worse than it had ever been, her bm's were worse, her eyes got crusty and oozing, her moods were awful, she wet her pants. BUT after a short period of time she began to get better. And better. And better. I would say the worst of it lasted maybe five days or so, and after about two weeks she was markedly better than before the enzymes, in every way. When I introduced peptizyde between meals, the healing crisis or die-off or whatever happened again. After about two months, her eczema was almost gone. Unless you think your dd is having a bona fide allergic reaction to the enzymes (this is unlikely though not impossible) I would urge you to continue with them.

Here's a long thread I started when we began enzymes, and somewhere in there you'll see where I'm asking these same questions. I don't think I would have continued with them if it weren't for those mamas who talked me through it
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...hlight=scd+igg


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cahwilson* 
Ok this may have been covered, but when do you do the no-fenol? If you are taking zyme prime, afp peptyzide, and no fenol, which go with meals and what goes in between?

It depends. Zymeprime with meals, always. If you're consuming gluten or dairy, Peptizyde also with meals. If you are sensitive to phenols, Nofenol also with meals.

We started out using Zymeprime with meals and after dd stabilized on that, added in Peptizyde and Nofenol together in between meals. But we weren't doing any dairy or gluten and are not sensitive to phenols. We were using the latter two for the systemic effects, not for digestion of foods.


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chinese Pistache* 
Thoughts on consuming liquids with meals?

Is this a bad thing, especially when you're taking enzymes? I have this pavlovian drive to drink water when I eat, but I was thinking that it probably dilutes the enzymes and makes them less effective. What do you think?

A small glass of water with meals is ok but you're right - too much will dilute all the digestive juices, acids, and enzymes. It's probably worse to do this without taking enzymes though, as then there are even less and even more diluted. Also the water should be room temp, not cold.


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## SAmama (Oct 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joybird* 
I always have to respond when I see a post like this because when my dd started enzymes it was very messy. Her eczema got worse than it had ever been, her bm's were worse, her eyes got crusty and oozing, her moods were awful, she wet her pants. BUT after a short period of time she began to get better. And better. And better. I would say the worst of it lasted maybe five days or so, and after about two weeks she was markedly better than before the enzymes, in every way. When I introduced peptizyde between meals, the healing crisis or die-off or whatever happened again. After about two months, her eczema was almost gone. Unless you think your dd is having a bona fide allergic reaction to the enzymes (this is unlikely though not impossible) I would urge you to continue with them.

Here's a long thread I started when we began enzymes, and somewhere in there you'll see where I'm asking these same questions. I don't think I would have continued with them if it weren't for those mamas who talked me through it
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...hlight=scd+igg

Thank you Joybird. DD has been on Zyme Prime for a few months now, but only just started enzymes between meals. I have taken them between meals before and didn't experience much, maybe I wasn't taking enough. Now I just give it to dd. We are in China and it is such a drama to try and get sups here from the US, so when we go to the US I will get those things for me. Now I really want to just deal with her issues. It has been two years and I am slowly loosing it. We have tried everything, it feels like. And boy, have we spent a lot of money! And no results. I am so discouraged by it all. Some days I just want to get the Ellidel and forget about all of this.

I hope this helps. I am thinking of doing the scd or gaps, as much as I can figure it out online. We were grain-free for a while, but breakfasts were hard to do, since we are egg-free as well. Now I think we will do broth, then slowly add in veggies. I think her gut needs a break. And mine probably as well. I am pretty sure we are dealing with yeast and we probably have some bad bacterial overgrowth as well. I would love to just jump in and do Nystatin and Threelac, but again, can't find it here and people are getting sick of me asking them to bring things for me. It will have to wait for now. Gosh, I haven't been this discouraged in a very long time. There just doesn't seem to be any end in sight. Why can I not figure this out?!! So many mamas on MDC just "get" it after a few months and are well on their way to healing. We haven't given one step forward. As a matter of fact, her digestion is worse than ever!


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SAmama* 
Thank you Joybird. DD has been on Zyme Prime for a few months now, but only just started enzymes between meals. I have taken them between meals before and didn't experience much, maybe I wasn't taking enough. Now I just give it to dd. We are in China and it is such a drama to try and get sups here from the US, so when we go to the US I will get those things for me. Now I really want to just deal with her issues. It has been two years and I am slowly loosing it. We have tried everything, it feels like. And boy, have we spent a lot of money! And no results. I am so discouraged by it all. Some days I just want to get the Ellidel and forget about all of this.

I hope this helps. I am thinking of doing the scd or gaps, as much as I can figure it out online. We were grain-free for a while, but breakfasts were hard to do, since we are egg-free as well. Now I think we will do broth, then slowly add in veggies. I think her gut needs a break. And mine probably as well. I am pretty sure we are dealing with yeast and we probably have some bad bacterial overgrowth as well. I would love to just jump in and do Nystatin and Threelac, but again, can't find it here and people are getting sick of me asking them to bring things for me. It will have to wait for now. Gosh, I haven't been this discouraged in a very long time. There just doesn't seem to be any end in sight. Why can I not figure this out?!! So many mamas on MDC just "get" it after a few months and are well on their way to healing. We haven't given one step forward. As a matter of fact, her digestion is worse than ever!

I'm sorry mama - it really is so hard to deal with. I hate to suggest another supplement when it is so hard for you to get stuff, but have you tried Saccharomyces Boulardii? It's a probiotic yeast. Your dd's stools sound very much like what my dd's (and mine) were. I can say that we both totally normalized after only a few days on the S. Boulardii. I don't think it was a coincidence. You can research it and see what you think but it is a transient strain of yeast that supposedly inhibits the growth of both yeast and bad bacteria. I wish I could send you some Nystatin but I suppose that's not exactly legal.


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## cahwilson (Jan 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SAmama* 
Thank you Joybird. DD has been on Zyme Prime for a few months now, but only just started enzymes between meals. I have taken them between meals before and didn't experience much, maybe I wasn't taking enough. Now I just give it to dd. We are in China and it is such a drama to try and get sups here from the US, so when we go to the US I will get those things for me. Now I really want to just deal with her issues. It has been two years and I am slowly loosing it. We have tried everything, it feels like. And boy, have we spent a lot of money! And no results. I am so discouraged by it all. Some days I just want to get the Ellidel and forget about all of this.

I hope this helps. I am thinking of doing the scd or gaps, as much as I can figure it out online. We were grain-free for a while, but breakfasts were hard to do, since we are egg-free as well. Now I think we will do broth, then slowly add in veggies. I think her gut needs a break. And mine probably as well. I am pretty sure we are dealing with yeast and we probably have some bad bacterial overgrowth as well. I would love to just jump in and do Nystatin and Threelac, but again, can't find it here and people are getting sick of me asking them to bring things for me. It will have to wait for now. Gosh, I haven't been this discouraged in a very long time. There just doesn't seem to be any end in sight. Why can I not figure this out?!! So many mamas on MDC just "get" it after a few months and are well on their way to healing. We haven't given one step forward. As a matter of fact, her digestion is worse than ever!


We are grain free and I am so sick of eggs so we have been living off smoothies for breakfast. I do coconut milk, fruit, kale, raw honey, concentrace and then I will mix dd's powdered supplements into a small but and have her drink that first. Don't know if that would work for you, but just a thought. It was hard to transition from pancakes, toast, etc for us.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joybird* 
I hate to suggest another supplement when it is so hard for you to get stuff, but have you tried Saccharomyces Boulardii? It's a probiotic yeast.

For me, this was a new probiotic suggestion. So, I just did a bunch of reading about it online. Basically, I think this is something to consider, in conjunction with other probiotics, not in large single strain dosing. And not with immunocompromised individuals, due to the rare occurrence of sepsis from the saccharomyces boulardii.

Interestingly, saccharomyces boulardii is present in the Body Ecology *Cocobiotic:* http://www.bodyecology.com/07/06/14/..._treatment.php

Here is another source of saccharomyces boulardii in lacto fermented beverages: http://www.rejoiceinlife.com/recipes/probiotics.php

I have read that *sometimes* there are naturally occuring saccharomyces boulardii in some kombucha and some milk kefir and in fermented vegetables.

Pat


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## Chinese Pistache (May 29, 2006)

I'm not sure what to do. I would like to order nystatin for my lo, but my paranoia is too high not knowing exactly where it would be coming from. I'm going to order Candidase for me; will it have any yeast-reducing effect on my nursling?

Also, if Candex and Candidase are supposed to knock out the yeast by attacking their cell wall, do you think it's a fairly slow process? It just seems like, if it's so effective, why aren't more people raving about it (like Threelac)?

If I take Threelac (I have about 1/2 box left), what kind of dosage should I use and how much oxygen should I take with it? I'm kind of hoping I can use it as a booster to the Candidase, because I don't want to spend the money for a bunch more of it if I don't have to.

Which leads me back to my question, will this all have a yeast reducing effect on my lo? If not, what can I do for him? I'm wary of giving him anything other than bifidobacteria.

ETA: What would be the benefit of a product like Virastop? Is it going to do anything that regular enzymes and probiotics aren't already doing?


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chinese Pistache* 
I'm not sure what to do. I would like to order nystatin for my lo, but my paranoia is too high not knowing exactly where it would be coming from. I'm going to order Candidase for me; will it have any yeast-reducing effect on my nursling?

Also, if Candex and Candidase are supposed to knock out the yeast by attacking their cell wall, do you think it's a fairly slow process? It just seems like, if it's so effective, why aren't more people raving about it (like Threelac)?

If I take Threelac (I have about 1/2 box left), what kind of dosage should I use and how much oxygen should I take with it? I'm kind of hoping I can use it as a booster to the Candidase, because I don't want to spend the money for a bunch more of it if I don't have to.

Which leads me back to my question, will this all have a yeast reducing effect on my lo? If not, what can I do for him? I'm wary of giving him anything other than bifidobacteria.

ETA: What would be the benefit of a product like Virastop? Is it going to do anything that regular enzymes and probiotics aren't already doing?

Can you get a doc to give you a script for nystatin? I don't think that Candidase would help the nursling because the enzymes probably don't make it to the bm. That's just a guess though.

I think the enzymes are pretty powerful for yeast, but would work even better with an anti-fungal if you can do one. I don't know why they are not talked about as much, but perhaps they just aren't tried by as many people. Enzymes in general are not very well known about, even among some NDs and people who are into 'alternative' remedies.

I'm also not sure how to help a nursling w/yeast, because it seems like no matter what you do, they are getting a bellyfull of milk sugar every few hours and that it would just feed the yeast again. But maybe Nystatin would be strong enough to beat it back while you get some good bacteria in there. Calm seems to be the one with the answers on that front.

Virastop is beneficial because it has lots of protease enzymes. They don't kill yeast like cellulase does, but they will help mop up toxins that the yeast release when they're killed. For that reason I think it would be a really good idea to do with the yeast-killing enzymes if you have a young nursling, to keep as much of that away from the bm as possible.


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## SAmama (Oct 13, 2006)

Thanks for the encouragement and ideas everyone. We are getting S Boulardii. Hopefully that will help. We are slowly heading to grain free again. Can't do eggs, so we will probably eat a lot of smoothies as well. Hard without coconut milk though, which is really a problem right now.

Anyway, we are sticking it out with the enzymes. It seems to be getting worse by the day! Hopefully this is a good sign.

Have to run. MDC is great!


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## Chinese Pistache (May 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joybird* 
Can you get a doc to give you a script for nystatin? I don't think that Candidase would help the nursling because the enzymes probably don't make it to the bm. That's just a guess though.

I think the enzymes are pretty powerful for yeast, but would work even better with an anti-fungal if you can do one. I don't know why they are not talked about as much, but perhaps they just aren't tried by as many people. Enzymes in general are not very well known about, even among some NDs and people who are into 'alternative' remedies.

I'm also not sure how to help a nursling w/yeast, because it seems like no matter what you do, they are getting a bellyfull of milk sugar every few hours and that it would just feed the yeast again. But maybe Nystatin would be strong enough to beat it back while you get some good bacteria in there. Calm seems to be the one with the answers on that front.

Virastop is beneficial because it has lots of protease enzymes. They don't kill yeast like cellulase does, but they will help mop up toxins that the yeast release when they're killed. For that reason I think it would be a really good idea to do with the yeast-killing enzymes if you have a young nursling, to keep as much of that away from the bm as possible.

I know. I just don't know what kind of doctor would be willing to prescribe this to me without us having common symptoms. Conventional docs hardly know anything about yeast other than "infections," and we haven't had luck finding an alternative doctor. Sigh.


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## Chinese Pistache (May 29, 2006)

Does anyone want to buy some Culturelle or Reuteri from me? Now that I'm strictly dairy-free, I'm won't be able to use these any more. I've got 2 boxes of Culturelle (30 caps each) and a bottle of Primodophilus Reuteri (90 caps) in case anyone is interested.


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## duckmom (Mar 29, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeingMe* 
2. I'm thinking the vira-stop since my last test showed really elevated levels of epstein barr. Is there any risk with this product that you know of? Or anything else I need to supplement with when using this product?


I was going to participate in the third enzymes and virus pilot study, but I never did. I still have the e-mail that Karen DeFelice sent out with detailed instructions on how to use ViraStop for a 'therapeutic dose' and what to expect.

PM me if you're interested and I can send it to you.


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## cahwilson (Jan 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *duckmom* 
I was going to participate in the third enzymes and virus pilot study, but I never did. I still have the e-mail that Karen DeFelice sent out with detailed instructions on how to use ViraStop for a 'therapeutic dose' and what to expect.

PM me if you're interested and I can send it to you.

Could you PM me that as well? I have a bottle in my cupboard, but I'm not sure what to with it. We're already on Nystatin, 3 enzymes, and a probiotic. I'm not sure if it would help with all of those or not.

Chinese Pistache- If I could ship you some Nystatin in China I would! Our doc prescribed our dd 3 refills for a script I got at Walgreens which is the sugary crap and then sent another script to a compounding pharmacy to get it with stevia that also has 3 refills. Pretty sure you can't ship rx's to another country though.









On that note does anyone know if the sugary Nystatin will work??


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chinese Pistache* 
I know. I just don't know what kind of doctor would be willing to prescribe this to me without us having common symptoms. Conventional docs hardly know anything about yeast other than "infections," and we haven't had luck finding an alternative doctor. Sigh.

Aye. We are lucky to have a holistic MD who knows all about gut issues. But if we didn't, I'd have no problems making up a few symptoms to persuade a less-than-helpful doc to give me something I thought might help me. It is a pretty safe med so it might not be that hard. You know, chronic yeast infection or something like that ...









I also have a huge bottle (and 6 refills) of the oral suspension liquid that I won't be using. I wouldn't advise taking it though as it is full of nasty stuff. Not only sugar but also saccharin, artificial colors/flavors, methyl and propyl parabens. If you want it it's yours though.


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## xekomaya (Apr 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joybird* 
But if we didn't, I'd have no problems making up a few symptoms to persuade a less-than-helpful doc to give me something I thought might help me. I

I got distracted by the baby, but was just about to suggest that often the only symptom of thrush is burning nipples ... then you're justified for a prescription for you and any nurslings..


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## Chinese Pistache (May 29, 2006)

I'd love info on virastop, too, if possible.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cahwilson* 

Chinese Pistache- If I could ship you some Nystatin in China I would! Our doc prescribed our dd 3 refills for a script I got at Walgreens which is the sugary crap and then sent another script to a compounding pharmacy to get it with stevia that also has 3 refills. Pretty sure you can't ship rx's to another country though.









On that note does anyone know if the sugary Nystatin will work??

LOL, I'm in California, but thanks for thinking of me. I'm going to see how far I can get with our ped. I also saw an ad for an md who does homeopathy, too. Not sure if he sees infants. . .

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joybird* 
Aye. We are lucky to have a holistic MD who knows all about gut issues. But if we didn't, I'd have no problems making up a few symptoms to persuade a less-than-helpful doc to give me something I thought might help me. It is a pretty safe med so it might not be that hard. You know, chronic yeast infection or something like that ...









.

So, like what? Ds has no rash, no thrush, but his previous poop issues looked and smelled as much like yeast as they did food sensitivities (which we all know go hand in hand).


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## cahwilson (Jan 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chinese Pistache* 
I'd love info on virastop, too, if possible.

LOL, I'm in California, but thanks for thinking of me. I'm going to see how far I can get with our ped. I also saw an ad for an md who does homeopathy, too. Not sure if he sees infants. . .

So, like what? Ds has no rash, no thrush, but his previous poop issues looked and smelled as much like yeast as they did food sensitivities (which we all know go hand in hand).


LOL sorry I was confusing you with Samama I think!

In that case I would go with the symptoms of thrush to get the rx. If they prescribe the liquid you could always get it compounded with stevia and natural flavors. Although finding a holistic doc could be very beneficial in the long run. It has been for us.


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

Is Lysine just as good as doing Virastop for my Epstein Barr, and little warts all over? I would like to do the Virastop but hubby thinks we have spent too much money on supplements lately. What do you think?


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## duckmom (Mar 29, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeingMe* 
Is Lysine just as good as doing Virastop for my Epstein Barr, and little warts all over? I would like to do the Virastop but hubby thinks we have spent too much money on supplements lately. What do you think?

For herpes family viruses, which EBV and warts would be, I think so. Lysine is said to be able to eliminate herpes viruses at therapeutic doses, and it's certainly less expensive than ViraStop. I would definitely give it a try if I were you.


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

*Thanks for the info about the lysine.

Ok, got my enzymes and getting ready to start on my daughter(recap - 28 months, not autistic, but majorly speech delayed, yeast, certain food sensitivities, poor sleeper at night, and possible underlyig viral(had ringworm that spread 2 months ago). Please let me know if I have any of this wrong.

Enzymes:
1. Zyme Prime - I start slowly with giving this at meals. Starting with one meadl a day then working up to 3 meals a day. I also start by giving less than 1/4tsp (I got the powder) and slowly working up to a full 1/4tsp.

2. AFP Peptizide - Once Zymeprime is going ok, I then slowly introduce the AFP the same way I did the ZymePrime, all the while maintaining my her Zymeprime dose

3. VSL#3 - Once AFP and ZymePrime are going with meals I then introduce the heavy probiotics between meals and away from enzymes

4. Candex - Once the probiotics are taken ok, I give Candex in between meals and away from the probiotics. Again going really slowly.

5. Antifungals if we can't get this beat by the other measures.

Questions:

A. My ND said to give magnesium, even though she will be on Brainchilds vitamins and minerals(advanced sensitive and ultra-sensitive http://www.brainchildnutritionals.com/SSAS_Ingredx.html ). Do you think it's necessary to supplement more than the 10mg she will get a day? The brand of magnesium I use is Natural Calm, but the baby version has vitamin c in it(magnesium ascorbate), is this ok or should I just give her less of mine which is just magnesium citrate?

B. Calcium - is this good to supplement?

C. Biotin - Should I give her this? What time of day to give this if I give her some, between meals, etc? And if it needs more magnesium than what is in the brainchild supplement do they have to be given at same time?

D. At what point do I put the AFP and/or Zyme Prime in between meals?

E. Lysine - Is this good to give her?

F. Anything I am missing that she should be getting? She gets CLO, and soon will be getting butter oil, so that should hopefully take care of any possible Vit K issues.

Thanks for taking the time to look over this. You women are amazing and have helped me sleep better at night







*


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## gilamama (Aug 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joybird* 
protease enzymes. They don't kill yeast like cellulase does, but they will help mop up toxins that the yeast release when they're killed. For that reason I think it would be a really good idea to do with the yeast-killing enzymes if you have a young nursling, to keep as much of that away from the bm as possible.


this is helpful information. thanks.


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## WildIris (Oct 22, 2007)

Does anyone else notice getting very cold and/or very sleepy after taking a dose of Candidase?


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## SAmama (Oct 13, 2006)

cahwilson said:


> LOL sorry I was confusing you with Samama I think!
> 
> Yes, you were probably thinking of me.
> 
> ...


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## cahwilson (Jan 24, 2007)

SAmama said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *cahwilson*
> ...


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## Teenytoona (Jun 13, 2005)

Hello all, I am looking into this healing the gut stuff and am feeling interested, confused and well, a whole lot of stuff.

First off, a little history. Mr Toona and I have been together a little over 6 years. Early on when we met, he developed something he called eczema on his hands and on the back of his leg. It is now a huge (larger than his hand) patch of scale-like skin that itches furiously. (He can't use anything short of his keys to scratch it). I never had much in the way of yeast problems before him, but ever since him, I've had scratchy bits (just external, not internal) almost everyday. We never put two and two together. His son had a very bad case of eczema from birth and so I just figured his was eczema. Cue DD being born, and we transferred to the hospital (due to my being a weenie, really no emergency), we got their stinking antibiotics because I feel like they didn't even give me the option. DD (and I) had thrush then. I didn't really ever have much in the way of symptoms, just her mouth and the early days she sometimes didn't want to latch on. We tried this that and another thing, and finally I stopped doing anything, and it seemed to be done.

BUT, I've noticed recently she will NOT nurse when I've had garlic, and now that I'm trying probiotics again, she will not consume whatever they are mixed in (EBM, haven't tried it with water yet). Mr Toona and my itching still continue. Mine is more off and on again than his. Our Doc (DO) that we found suggested that our problem was yeast (which is what I was starting to suspect). And Mr Toona claims Doc said can get rid of yeast by treating just one of us. That makes no sense to me, but who knows.

So I"m reading all this and wondering where to start. Did I mention that Mr Toona has this need (not everyday anymore, but it used to be that he'd) eat a sugar fix a day before going to bed. this means anything from a pastry to apple butter on raisin bread. I've never looked for a connection, but his itching is always the worst before bedtime and as I write this wonder if that happens most when he eats his sugar fix.

We both WOHM. I don't have the time to cook really drawn out recipes and whatnot, and I"m hoping we can figure some things that work for us, but I think we need a diet change. This won't be easy with Mr Toona's sweet fix need.

I've perused the BTVC and BED websited and I just don't know which one makes more sense. I've got the books on hold from the library. Can anyone break down the differences between these? Any tips on breaking a sugar fix habit?
TIA


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:

A. My ND said to give magnesium, even though she will be on Brainchilds vitamins and minerals(advanced sensitive and ultra-sensitive http://www.brainchildnutritionals.com/SSAS_Ingredx.html ). Do you think it's necessary to supplement more than the 10mg she will get a day? The brand of magnesium I use is Natural Calm, but the baby version has vitamin c in it(magnesium ascorbate), is this ok or should I just give her less of mine which is just magnesium citrate?
I give each kiddo 220mg magnesium per day (split between pre-naptime and bedtime), plus there's a little here and there in some of their other supps. If you go too high, you'll see diarrhea. I use a capsule, Perque Mg Plus Guard--I found the flavor of natural calm to be a bit, um, strong, but if it's working for you, it's supposed to be a really nice type.


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## tanyalynn (Jun 5, 2005)

Joybird, can I ask about this? (And sorry for asking about something from 4 pages ago--I live in Sugar Land, a suburb to the west of Houston, and we were without power for almost a week and I'm just getting back to my learning adventure).

Quote:

The toxins from yeast die-off will not re-settle in your body as a pp suggested. Heavy metals, yes, but that's not what we're talking about here. Your body has detox pathways and they will do their job if you support them properly and if they are not overloaded because of heavy metal toxicity.
Do you have anything I could read about the difference between heavy metals as toxins and other toxins? I would've thought any could re-settle, and with a really limited diet and little or no safe vit/mineral supplements, it seems like the detox pathways would be really hampered. But all my reading has started from the heavy metal side of things, so I've got holes to fill in (and this will be much more relevant as I start working on my husband, but that'll be after his adrenals are in a bit better shape, so now is my learning time). Anything you can share is great.


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## SAmama (Oct 13, 2006)

We use the bulk powders of Houston. Now we want to do Gaps or SCD, but cellulose seems to be on the list of illegal foods. I actually thought that the enzymes that isn't with rice bran is scd friendly. No? I quickly checked on their site, but didn't find anything. Does anybody know?


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## WildIris (Oct 22, 2007)

Just a quick update: I decided I'm giving up on the Candidase for now. Every time I take it I get very tired and/or my body gets very cold afterwards. These are both allergy reactions for me with food, so it worries me to have this happen with the Candidase. I don't know if I'm reacting to something in the Candidase in an allergenic sense, or if it's a die-off reaction...but either way, my instincts say to just back off for now. I'm really being drawn to do some herbal things instead, for liver support and hormonal support, so that's what I'm doing for now. I think I may try the Candidase again in a month or so. I'm going to continue the Digest Gold with meals though.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WildIris* 
Just a quick update: I decided I'm giving up on the Candidase for now. Every time I take it I get very tired and/or my body gets very cold afterwards. These are both allergy reactions for me with food, so it worries me to have this happen with the Candidase. I don't know if I'm reacting to something in the Candidase in an allergenic sense, or if it's a die-off reaction...but either way, my instincts say to just back off for now. I'm really being drawn to do some herbal things instead, for liver support and hormonal support, so that's what I'm doing for now. I think I may try the Candidase again in a month or so. I'm going to continue the Digest Gold with meals though.

That is really interesting for me to hear... because I had terrible side-effects from the Candex, which could have been die-off but seemed all too similar to my allergic reactions. I wonder what the possible allergen is in the enzymes?


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## WildIris (Oct 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
That is really interesting for me to hear... because I had terrible side-effects from the Candex, which could have been die-off but seemed all too similar to my allergic reactions. I wonder what the possible allergen is in the enzymes?

I don't know. And it's possible that it's just die-off and I'm being a wimp... BUT I am in a place right now where I am really working at asking for guidance and following my intuition about healing, and suddenly I just felt like taking so many capsules of stuff every day and feeling tired and non-functional for hours afterward is not the right thing for me at this particular time. I'm feeling led to do more things that are nourishing as opposed to causing strife to my body, if that makes sense. And getting a lot of messages about being gentle and treading lightly. Even to just "lighten up" and not be so regimented about food and stuff. I don't know how to explain it, really. Come over to the new thread I started on having an Intuitive Healing tribe.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WildIris* 
I don't know. And it's possible that it's just die-off and I'm being a wimp... BUT I am in a place right now where I am really working at asking for guidance and following my intuition about healing, and suddenly I just felt like taking so many capsules of stuff every day and feeling tired and non-functional for hours afterward is not the right thing for me at this particular time. I'm feeling led to do more things that are nourishing as opposed to causing strife to my body, if that makes sense. And getting a lot of messages about being gentle and treading lightly. Even to just "lighten up" and not be so regimented about food and stuff. I don't know how to explain it, really. Come over to the new thread I started on having an Intuitive Healing tribe.









I know exactly what you mean. I just completely stopped all my supplements and am trying to just work on reintroducing some foods into my diet and increasing my intake of fermented foods. I couldn't handle feeling any crappier than I already was... so we'll see how this goes. So far so good.


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## LauraLoo (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
That is really interesting for me to hear... because I had terrible side-effects from the Candex, which could have been die-off but seemed all too similar to my allergic reactions. I wonder what the possible allergen is in the enzymes?

It could possibly be something that they are using in the binder. Just a guess.


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## spunky (Mar 27, 2005)

I am starting very slow with my self and ds, 4.5 yo. He has had 2 caps/day for 2 days of RenewLife KidZyme (digestive enzymes, probiotics, l-glutamine, nag, fos), am/pm w/ food. natural calm magnesium those 2 days as well. I have had 2 yeast defense one day and 4 the next, multivit, plantzyme (NOW) and magnesium and we both have had clo.
both of my nursing children's poops were green the first day. then no poop the second day, and my ds always goes every day. now this am, after smoothie (0nly new ingredient was brewer's yeast) his hands and feet have red bumps all over them. I would think it is hand, foot, mouth except he hasn't had a fever in several weeks, he has no bumps in his mouth, he has had two big ones on his bum which have been there for a while and don't look anything like the ones on his hands and feet and he has two on one ear that do look like the ones on his hands and mouth. He is VERY clingy and irritable. the clinginess only slightly more than normal and the irritability is about par.
So do you vote for reaction or virus?
Thank you.


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Ok, for about two weeks now, this has been my routine:

Digest Gold and/or zyme prime with meals & large snack
Candidase in the am and pm
1 capsule of Pharmax dairy free probiotic for use when taking abx

In the beginning, I experienced some extra gas and some headaches but nothing too horrendous. I'm thinking I need to add an antifungal. I'm nursing a one year old who doesn't eat too many solids. What would be the best thing to use? GSE? Something else?


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Hi folks,

Can blood in stool (the bright red kind) be a symptom of a food allergy, or would you say it is more likely that it would be from the fact that, if inflammation is there in the intestinal tract to begin with, and then you eat a certain food that irritated things more, that would be the cause. What do you think?


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## xekomaya (Apr 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Teenytoona* 
Hello all, I am looking into this healing the gut stuff and am feeling interested, confused and well, a whole lot of stuff.

Hi Welcome!

Quote:


First off, a little history. Mr Toona and I have been together a little over 6 years. Early on when we met, he developed something he called eczema on his hands and on the back of his leg. It is now a huge (larger than his hand) patch of scale-like skin that itches furiously. (He can't use anything short of his keys to scratch it). I never had much in the way of yeast problems before him, but ever since him, I've had scratchy bits (just external, not internal) almost everyday. We never put two and two together. His son had a very bad case of eczema from birth and so I just figured his was eczema. Cue DD being born, and we transferred to the hospital (due to my being a weenie, really no emergency), we got their stinking antibiotics because I feel like they didn't even give me the option. DD (and I) had thrush then. I didn't really ever have much in the way of symptoms, just her mouth and the early days she sometimes didn't want to latch on. We tried this that and another thing, and finally I stopped doing anything, and it seemed to be done.

Have you tried to identify the patches on the internet? Have you considered laundry detergent or hard water in your new location? I'm thinking your itching could be related (laundry detergent,etc) or you could both itch for different (or even multiple) reasons. My husband is very itchy and when we started figuring it out, it was different fugi and floral imbalances in every different patch so it took a lot of trying to get them all and he still has one bad one left but its a big improvement..

Quote:


BUT, I've noticed recently she will NOT nurse when I've had garlic, and now that I'm trying probiotics again, she will not consume whatever they are mixed in (EBM, haven't tried it with water yet). Mr Toona and my itching still continue. Mine is more off and on again than his. Our Doc (DO) that we found suggested that our problem was yeast (which is what I was starting to suspect). And Mr Toona claims Doc said can get rid of yeast by treating just one of us. That makes no sense to me, but who knows.

Garlic is very pungent in breastmilk. Are you suggesting this as a sign of a problem or preventing you from eating a healthy food?
I didn't check to see how old your DD is. Doe she eat solids - can you do yogurt? You can make it out of many things besides dairy. If no solids, can you just swipe it in her mouth? Thats what I do to my DS








From my reading, my theory is it may be possible to cure yeast in both mother and baby by treating the mother for a VERY young baby if you could "cure" the mother and have her start passing great bacteria, since the baby's gut flora is changed every couple weeks by the content of the breastmilk. The older the baby the more established the flora though and I don't think it would be possible.

Quote:


So I"m reading all this and wondering where to start. Did I mention that Mr Toona has this need (not everyday anymore, but it used to be that he'd) eat a sugar fix a day before going to bed. this means anything from a pastry to apple butter on raisin bread. I've never looked for a connection, but his itching is always the worst before bedtime and as I write this wonder if that happens most when he eats his sugar fix.
If he has a true sugar addiction, I suggest Potatoes not Prozac. Her methods were the key to my success.

Quote:

We both WOHM. I don't have the time to cook really drawn out recipes and whatnot, and I"m hoping we can figure some things that work for us, but I think we need a diet change. This won't be easy with Mr Toona's sweet fix need.

It's just something you need to get used to. Doesn't really take much longer than a package. Broth and broth based soups were the original fast food. TF forum has some good suggestions.

Quote:

I've perused the BTVC and BED websited and I just don't know which one makes more sense. I've got the books on hold from the library. Can anyone break down the differences between these? Any tips on breaking a sugar fix habit?
TIA
I'm not sure what BED is? BTVC has some great information and it is sorta a read, and then read 2x more kinda book. If I had more foods I would be on it strictly, but with 10 foods it doesn't work out so well..

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SAmama* 
We use the bulk powders of Houston. Now we want to do Gaps or SCD, but cellulose seems to be on the list of illegal foods. I actually thought that the enzymes that isn't with rice bran is scd friendly. No? I quickly checked on their site, but didn't find anything. Does anybody know?

Cellulose in suppliments is allowed on SCD. You can find the legal/illegal list here. The rice bran one would be ILLEGAL. SCD doesn't recommend many supplements though, but I am not familiar with the GAPS protocol.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WildIris* 
Just a quick update: I decided I'm giving up on the Candidase for now. Every time I take it I get very tired and/or my body gets very cold afterwards. These are both allergy reactions for me with food, so it worries me to have this happen with the Candidase.

That is really interesting! Hmm... Ordinarily I seem to hear that if you take a yeast killer and have a reaction, it means you have yeast. But I wonder what us allergic people are supposed to do ...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spunky* 
I am starting very slow with my self and ds, 4.5 yo. He has had 2 caps/day for 2 days of RenewLife KidZyme (digestive enzymes, probiotics, l-glutamine, nag, fos), am/pm w/ food. natural calm magnesium those 2 days as well. I have had 2 yeast defense one day and 4 the next, multivit, plantzyme (NOW) and magnesium and we both have had clo.

That sounds like a TON of new stuff you added in just a couple days. I don't know what to say as to whether it is a reaction, adjustment, or virus. You posted a couple days ago though - how's it going now?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
Hi folks,

Can blood in stool (the bright red kind) be a symptom of a food allergy, or would you say it is more likely that it would be from the fact that, if inflammation is there in the intestinal tract to begin with, and then you eat a certain food that irritated things more, that would be the cause. What do you think?

Food allergy. But I think the condition of the intestinal tract would make it more or less likely that an offending food causes blood.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

So, okay guys, please tell me what you think. Just a quick and brief history, my DS who is 4 and a couple months, had abx back in Feb. I believe they cause more problems because he got them after he was already feeling better (I was treating him homeopathically/naturally for strep throat/scarlatina but then th family doctor freaked my husband out and we wound up giving him the abx anyway.) I am saying all this to say that, this is one reason why I think it messed up his bowels even more, because his immune system had already kicked most of it out.

So, his bowels haven;'t been the same since, but they were getting better over time with 3x/day probiotics (Klaire TherBiotic Complete). Then, after being on that regimen for a while, he started having an itchy bottom. I stopped the probiotics and I believe he had some kind of rebound reaction with yeast. because then he got this horrible yeasty (what I think was yeast) diaper rash. He's been out of diapers for over a year, but he had this painful, very red rash, with open sores. He also had a tiny amount of bright red blood on the tp when I wiped him, but I think it was from the external area.

So, I did several things, started some probiotics again, but a lower dose (because I tried the Klaire Ther Biotic Complete again and it gave him immediate diarrhea). I cut out soy and wheat, we already weren't doing dairy, and I tried to limit his fructose. We eat absolutely no sugar, but he is a fruit lover. I also put yogurt on his bottom, which helped immensely (which is why I felt it was likely yeast).

So, the rash has cleared up, but his stools haven't gone back to what they were. They had gotten to be mostly formed almost all of the time. Now they are back to coming out formed but separating in the water.

Here's my dilemma:
The other day I made some cookies with coconut flour. We tried it a month or so ago, and it gave the whole family loose stools. Thought I'd try it again, because I'm wanting to avoid wheat. Both he AND I had looser stools with some blood, for about the past 2 or 3 days. He had a streak of bright red blood along the last half of his stool the first day, and then some on the tp. Then he had blood just in the water after a bm the next day. He has no other sick symptoms, no fever, acting perfectly fine and normal, energy good, etc. I guess I am feeling like it is not something to jump to worrying about because I had the exact same thing. PLUS, he still nurses. So, I feel like it must be that our intestines are inflamed and the coconut flour did not sit well with us.

I'm just not sure what to do. We have a homeopathic MD who is about an hour away, but he's only open Tue to Thurs. What do you guys think?


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BookGoddess* 
Jane - One more question (don't cringe!







), what are you thoughts on taking a probiotic that has FOS (Fructooligosaccharides) when one has bad bacteria in the gut? Wouldn't the FOS help the bad bacteria thrive as well? I saw some great Pharmax probiotics that has FOS but perhaps we should get a Pharmax probiotic that doesn't have FOS and there were some like that in their line.

Yes Pharmax suggests starting with the Intensive caps first which have no FOS and then moving to their FOS versions afterwards, either Mindlinx, High Potency or Synbiotic. I've heard amazing things IRL with yeasty people and the Synbiotic which does have FOS.

FOS according to studies helps *some* bad bacteria grow. However, it increased good bacteria in the stool by a very large amount and decreased bad bacteria in several human studies.

It's very hard to give a hard and fast rule about this. I personally do well with FOS (NOW inulin which is the same kind as the Body Ecology EcoBloom but cheaper). It does cause gas at first until your system gets used to it.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BookGoddess* 
That was a very helpful post, Jane!
Do you find Pharmax probiotics to be better than Klaire probiotics? If so, why? Our doctor recommended we use Klaire products so that's what we've used but if Pharmax has stronger probiotics, I'm very interested.

DD's latest stool microbiology test result showed we had increased her beneficial bacteria levels but now she has two types of bad bacteria at 4+ levels (pseudomonas and acinetobacter baumanii) that weren't there before!









I've never used Klaire and don't really know what is good about them, sorry! My WAPF/Allergy/Holistic and now BFF Registered Dietician







uses it in her practice and has some great data. Pharmax is pretty unique: human strain and does their own clinical studies. I'm salivating waiting for their 6 year study on infants and Neonate to be done!

Stool tests are notoriously unreliable like this due to the culturing process, it doesn't necessarily mean the bad guys increased or weren't there before. The OAT test is more accurate as I understand it, but personally I just use the "whiff test" if we are on track and have a good bacteria balance!


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
Jane,

When you reference your dietician is that Brenda? Has she been helpful in charting the yeast trail or have you don't that all by yourself. I guess I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed doing it on my own especially since I think both the kids & I have yeast. I'm sure I should do different regimens based on age & issues so it would be helpful to have a provider to offer advice.

Of course, I'm sure the people on this board know more than any of the providers around so I should just read the thread and pllunge right in. I'm not sure why I'm hesitant. Sleep deprivation perhaps.

Yes it's Brenda and I don't know what I would do without her! Her office moved closer to you maybe, not sure what address I last gave you. Believe me I understand how difficult it is with the complexity and the sleep factor. She takes regular ins. so give it a go. She is very good at hand holding and listening to complaining too, don't ask me how I know that.


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Jane,

Can you pm me her contact info?

Thanks

Also, any thoughts on this?

Ok, for about two weeks now, this has been my routine:

Digest Gold and/or zyme prime with meals & large snack
Candidase in the am and pm
1 capsule of Pharmax dairy free probiotic for use when taking abx

In the beginning, I experienced some extra gas and some headaches but nothing too horrendous. I'm thinking I need to add an antifungal. I'm nursing a one year old who doesn't eat too many solids. What would be the best thing to use? GSE? Something else?

Finally, have you ever heard about rubbing Oil of Oregano on the feet of babies as opposed to giving orally? I just read something about it yesterday.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
Jane,

Finally, have you ever heard about rubbing Oil of Oregano on the feet of babies as opposed to giving orally? I just read something about it yesterday.

Not Jane, but that's the only way I'd do it for babes. It is accessed readily when used transdermally.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

for anyone interested this is a fun product and has been used widely for gut healing.

http://www.vegetarian-restaurants.ne...E-DE-DRAGO.htm

Sangre de Drago is used extensively by indigenous cultures of the Amazon River basin for its remarkable healing properties. Applied to the skin on abrasions, cuts, scratches, and blisters, Sangre de Drago almost immediately forms a brownish gel over the lesion that seals the wound. Applied on bites and stings it halts the symptoms of pain and itching within minutes, with a subsequent reduction in swelling and redness. Sangre de Drago is reported by indigenous people to foster wound healing at a rate that is superior to natural processes, and it does so with reduced pain, inflammation, and scarring. Indigenous people also take Sangre de Drago orally in a diluted form (e.g. three drops in a beverage two or three times a day) for gastrointestinal disorders, gastritis, gastric ulcer, intestinal infections, colitis and parasites.

*****

To strengthen the wall of the intestine and eliminate conditions linked to a leaky gut" add a teaspoon of Sangre de Drago to one liter of water and drink throughout the day for approximately two weeks. To help get rid of parasites" add three to four teaspoons of Sangre de Drago to one liter of water and drink for a few days.

I use it for any kind of major bleed and had started using it several months back internally. I don't know if it was part of what allowed the healing, but it's amazing stuff externally so I do wonder....


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs...55303771952235

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...6705cf3d38ce20


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Where do you get yours? Seems like it would be worth a shot.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

I get it through Amazon Herbs because that's the place that was highly recommended. There are a few sites that appear reputable. Here's another:
http://www.sangrededrago.net/about.html


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## SAmama (Oct 13, 2006)

Dd's skin seems to be clearing!! And her poops are looking more formed.







:

We started A Vogel's eczema formula a month or so ago. It is supposed to help liver and kidney function. Then we started enzymes between meals (for her) about two weeks ago (had been doing enzymes with meals for a long time). She was reacting horrendously, with moods, tantrums and terrible, terrible sleep. Oh, and her eczema was red and angry. Last week I gave her one dose of premixed Nystatin (with all the crap in it) and she flared up really bad. I wasn't sure if it was because of the colouring, etc. in it, or because of die-off, but decided not to do it again. Oh, somewhere last week I started adding GSE to her enzymes and then be sure to follow it up with some strong probiotics. More tantrums, flare-ups, etc. Now she is finally sleeping a little better (waking up only 4-5 times a night, as opposed to just about every hour... or waking up and not going back to sleep). But her skin looks fantastic, although she is still very itchy at night and at nap time (any clues why?). The best it has in two years!! Oh, and what made all this possible is that I taught her to take capsules last week. She was starting to really rebel against her enzymes, but thought it was pretty grand to take a tablet.

Today we started with the GAPS diet. We are only doing broth today, but will add meat tomorrow and then slowly add veggies.

I also have the opportunity to get some stuff from the US. I was thinking of either Threelac and Oxygen elements or Nystatin (the pure stuff) and a very good probiotic (she is using mine, Primal Defense, which she actually isn't supposed to get, according to the bottle). The person who will bring it has very limited space, so it is either or for us. I am leaning towards the Threelac, but am not sure. Any suggestions?


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 

I'm just not sure what to do. We have a homeopathic MD who is about an hour away, but he's only open Tue to Thurs. What do you guys think?

I definitely agree with homeopathy consultation. Also, it is important to rotate probiotics otherwise "probiotic resistance" could develop, I've read. Don't use single strain probiotics; and DO rotate them every 4-7 days. Additionally, "Live Active Culture" probiotics (like *some* yogurt, all kefir and fermented foods) are more able to make it to the gut and repopulate the microflora. Most probiotics sold are not vital once they make to the gut. Especially, probiotic powders loose potency when exposed to the air. Probiotics in capsule form live longer. Also the heat damage from transportation diminishes the vital cultures of many probiotics sold.. A lot of yogurt is heat pasteurized, which kills probiotics! Look for "Live Active Cultures".

Here is an informative article "Selection Criteria for Probiotics": http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...g=artBody;col1

But, from what I've read, it is essential to continually consume healthy bacteria, they don't replace the "bad microbs", just displace them. So, adding alternative "good bacteria", not singular or limited individual probiotics, seems more optimal to the gut. http://www.usprobiotics.org/docs/Sci...%C2%B0%205.pdf

*The Probiotic Solution* champions the "pulsing and rotating probiotics". http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...52/ai_n6112818

I'd venture to guess that your probiotics may be "old" and lost ability to repopulate the gut.

This link discusses specific brands of different probiotics: http://www.usprobiotics.org/products.asp

Also, you may consider using almond flour for baking. I don't know the specifics on baking substitutions though.

HTH,
Pat


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spunky* 
I am starting very slow with my self and ds, 4.5 yo. He has had 2 caps/day for 2 days of RenewLife KidZyme (digestive enzymes, probiotics, l-glutamine, nag, fos), am/pm w/ food. natural calm magnesium those 2 days as well. I have had 2 yeast defense one day and 4 the next, multivit, plantzyme (NOW) and magnesium and we both have had clo.
both of my nursing children's poops were green the first day. then no poop the second day, and my ds always goes every day. now this am, after smoothie (0nly new ingredient was brewer's yeast) his hands and feet have red bumps all over them. I would think it is hand, foot, mouth except he hasn't had a fever in several weeks, he has no bumps in his mouth, he has had two big ones on his bum which have been there for a while and don't look anything like the ones on his hands and feet and he has two on one ear that do look like the ones on his hands and mouth. He is VERY clingy and irritable. the clinginess only slightly more than normal and the irritability is about par.
So do you vote for reaction or virus?
Thank you.


How is he doing today? Did you continue the supps you had started, or did you stop? I guess it would be hard to tell if it was a reaction or not, because there are so many different things in that product. Let us know.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
I definitely agree with homeopathy consultation. Also, it is important to rotate probiotics otherwise "probiotic resistance" could develop, I've read. Don't use single strain probiotics; and DO rotate them every 4-7 days. Additionally, "Live Active Culture" probiotics (like *some* yogurt, all kefir and fermented foods) are more able to make it to the gut and repopulate the microflora. Most probiotics sold are not vital once they make to the gut. Especially, probiotic powders loose potency when exposed to the air. Probiotics in capsule form live longer. Also the heat damage from transportation diminishes the vital cultures of many probiotics sold.. A lot of yogurt is heat pasteurized, which kills probiotics! Look for "Live Active Cultures".

Here is an informative article "Selection Criteria for Probiotics": http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...g=artBody;col1

But, from what I've read, it is essential to continually consume healthy bacteria, they don't replace the "bad microbs", just displace them. So, adding alternative "good bacteria", not singular or limited individual probiotics, seems more optimal to the gut. http://www.usprobiotics.org/docs/Sci...%C2%B0%205.pdf

*The Probiotic Solution* champions the "pulsing and rotating probiotics". http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...52/ai_n6112818

I'd venture to guess that your probiotics may be "old" and lost ability to repopulate the gut.

This link discusses specific brands of different probiotics: http://www.usprobiotics.org/products.asp

Also, you may consider using almond flour for baking. I don't know the specifics on baking substitutions though.

HTH,
Pat

Thanks Pat!

I called the homeopathic person this morning, and he says it is most definitely just an anal fissure. He HAS been straining more to poop. His poop comes out formed but soft and it breaks apart in the water. So how can this cause an anal fissure?

I really think his gut is just still very inflamed and he reacted to the coconut flour. But, I would have thought it would have stopped by now. The thing is that we BOTH had the same reaction, blood in our stools. Except I only had it for two days, where he has had it now for four days. (Only having one bowel movement per day, though, so it's not like it is a lot of blood. And everything else is fine. No fever, lethargy, stomach pain, etc.)

We can both handle coconut milk and shredded coconut and coconut macaroons just fine. But the coconut flour we could not. It's so weird. That makes me think it is not necessarily an allergic reaction, but rather just maybe if the gut is inflamed, the coconut flour is somehow irritating because of the fiber or something. (I'll admit I ate quite a few of the cookies I made.)

He also still nurses, so I guess it also takes an extra day or so for it get out of my breastmilk. Though he really doesn't nurse that much at all now. One to two times per day max.

We used to use almond flour for baking when we did the SCD several years ago with my first child, up until the age of 4. But the second child has a peanut allergy, so I've been avoiding that. So I was hoping coconut would work. But, it's clearly OFF the list for a while.

I am just so confused about this blood in the stool. The doctor said anal fissure, but he had this a few weeks ago (though much, much less) after being on a higher dose probiotic for a while, and there is just something in me that wonders if it isn't maybe the probiotic itself irritating things more. Maybe we can't handle the FOS the way others can. I don't know.

I don't think it's that the probiotics are old, because we ordered straight from Klaire, they stay refrigerated, and they shipped them packed in ice.

The one we were giving did have multiple strains in it.

Do you all think I should just stop the probiotic altogether for a day or two?

I tried just giving him yogurt for two days now (we had stopped dairy altogether), and his nose is congested today. This is the same reaction I have to dairy. Though he's eaten it before without problems, I'm just not sure about giving him dairy.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SAmama* 
Dd's skin seems to be clearing!! And her poops are looking more formed.







:

We started A Vogel's eczema formula a month or so ago. It is supposed to help liver and kidney function. Then we started enzymes between meals (for her) about two weeks ago (had been doing enzymes with meals for a long time). She was reacting horrendously, with moods, tantrums and terrible, terrible sleep. Oh, and her eczema was red and angry. Last week I gave her one dose of premixed Nystatin (with all the crap in it) and she flared up really bad. I wasn't sure if it was because of the colouring, etc. in it, or because of die-off, but decided not to do it again. Oh, somewhere last week I started adding GSE to her enzymes and then be sure to follow it up with some strong probiotics. More tantrums, flare-ups, etc. Now she is finally sleeping a little better (waking up only 4-5 times a night, as opposed to just about every hour... or waking up and not going back to sleep). But her skin looks fantastic, although she is still very itchy at night and at nap time (any clues why?). The best it has in two years!! Oh, and what made all this possible is that I taught her to take capsules last week. She was starting to really rebel against her enzymes, but thought it was pretty grand to take a tablet.

Today we started with the GAPS diet. We are only doing broth today, but will add meat tomorrow and then slowly add veggies.

I also have the opportunity to get some stuff from the US. I was thinking of either Threelac and Oxygen elements or Nystatin (the pure stuff) and a very good probiotic (she is using mine, Primal Defense, which she actually isn't supposed to get, according to the bottle). The person who will bring it has very limited space, so it is either or for us. I am leaning towards the Threelac, but am not sure. Any suggestions?


Wow! That's awesome! What do you think did the trick for more formed stools?

I would really like to hear about Threelac too. I know others here have used it. I have also seen others give mixed reviews about it. Someone just posted another thread about one of the strains in the Threelac being connected to cancer. ?? Who knows.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

How was it determined that it was a fissure? Can you see it? Was it frank blood or was there mucus involved?

It's possible it was a fissure, but with stool that soft I would be wondering about skin integrity. Are you getting adequate amounts of zinc in your diet?

I would also say to anyone with an inflamed gut...be extra wary of fiber. I am not suprised at this reaction....I have seen it alot. I'm sorry! For a damaged gut IME fiber is NOT your friend.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery* 
for anyone interested this is a fun product and has been used widely for gut healing.

http://www.vegetarian-restaurants.ne...E-DE-DRAGO.htm

Sangre de Drago is used extensively by indigenous cultures of the Amazon River basin for its remarkable healing properties. Applied to the skin on abrasions, cuts, scratches, and blisters, Sangre de Drago almost immediately forms a brownish gel over the lesion that seals the wound. Applied on bites and stings it halts the symptoms of pain and itching within minutes, with a subsequent reduction in swelling and redness. Sangre de Drago is reported by indigenous people to foster wound healing at a rate that is superior to natural processes, and it does so with reduced pain, inflammation, and scarring. Indigenous people also take Sangre de Drago orally in a diluted form (e.g. three drops in a beverage two or three times a day) for gastrointestinal disorders, gastritis, gastric ulcer, intestinal infections, colitis and parasites.

*****

To strengthen the wall of the intestine and eliminate conditions linked to a leaky gut" add a teaspoon of Sangre de Drago to one liter of water and drink throughout the day for approximately two weeks. To help get rid of parasites" add three to four teaspoons of Sangre de Drago to one liter of water and drink for a few days.

I use it for any kind of major bleed and had started using it several months back internally. I don't know if it was part of what allowed the healing, but it's amazing stuff externally so I do wonder....


Our homeopathic MD recommends stuff from this company, Amazon Herbs. I think he told me about the external stuff you are mentioning for cuts and wounds. What did it help you for internally? I am eager to know more! Thanks!


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

I have used threelac and did look into it intensively after that link was posted. I actually think there were some serious holes in that argument. I would personally do it again.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
Our homeopathic MD recommends stuff from this company, Amazon Herbs. I think he told me about the external stuff you are mentioning for cuts and wounds. What did it help you for internally? I am eager to know more! Thanks!

I haven't been around in awhile, but I was in the healing the gut tribe back when it started. I had been diagnosed with celiac disease, I had all the symptoms that went along with inflammatory bowel disease, I was very sick for over a decade and subjected to all kinds of testing. Then my kids came along and my body was too sick to make milk (all three times...my milk did not come in on it's own) and I was experiencing neurological symptoms as well. All of my kids have documented food allergies. We have healed quite a bit, but I jsut tested negative for gluten. That is pretty darned huge after how sick I was. I won't say I'm "healed" yet, but I no longer have any of my original symptoms that I had for literally a decade.

I used several things (homeopathy being a biggie) but I can now eat anything with no symptoms, and as I said...my allergy tests have changed dramatically. I will not be consuming gluten on a regular basis but it's nice to know it won't be dangerous if I do!


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery* 
How was it determined that it was a fissure? Can you see it? Was it frank blood or was there mucus involved?

It's possible it was a fissure, but with stool that soft I would be wondering about skin integrity. Are you getting adequate amounts of zinc in your diet?

I would also say to anyone with an inflamed gut...be extra wary of fiber. I am not suprised at this reaction....I have seen it alot. I'm sorry! For a damaged gut IME fiber is NOT your friend.

No, I cannot see it at all, and he was just telling me this over the phone. He said absolutely that is what it was. I am thinking, how can he know that for sure though? He said from the way I described it, that's all it is.

There was no mucus. He is taking a kids multivitamin from Vitamin Research Products, but I just looked and it only has 2 mg zinc.

I totally agree about that with the fiber! We actually saw the homeopathic physician last week, and he just said it's normal that his stools are breaking apart in the water because he is eating so much fruit (He asked about DS's diet, and felt he was getting too much fructose. He does eat a lot of fruit.)

But, he just said to not worry about it, that he's fine, doesn't need anything else. He said just switch the balance to more vegetables and less fruit. And keep giving just the lower dose Klaire probiotic, and that's it.

I feel his gut is still inflamed. When I was giving him the higher dose probiotics three times a day, he was starting to have formed stools regularly. But then, after a while, he started having a very itchy bottom, was still saying his tummy hurt every now and then, and so I stopped them completely and he had a very red painful rash that I really thought was yeast immediately.

It cleared up by applying yogurt topically.

But this is why I am wondering if maybe the probiotic helped at first, but then started irritating things.

Now, with just the lower dose Klaire probiotic, he is back to having stools that come out formed and then break apart in the water.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery* 
I would also say to anyone with an inflamed gut...be extra wary of fiber. I am not suprised at this reaction....I have seen it alot. I'm sorry! For a damaged gut IME fiber is NOT your friend.

Yes, see I think that his gut is still in need of healing, and therefore the extra fiber caused problems.

Plus the thing about the doctor saying that it's just that he is getting too much fructose...then why did this change only happen after antibiotics? It was not like that before, and his diet was pretty much the same.

I just don't know where to go now, to heal his gut further.

How did you know you needed the Threelac? I have been wondering about trying that. Is it used on little ones (he just turned four).


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Momofmine, with soft stool, I'd be inclined to think it was not an anal fissure.

When I just did a search about FOS, I found this which isn't supportive of probiotics including FOS. http://www.healingcrow.com/ferfun/co...onspiracy.html

I'm a whole foods gal, so my recommendation is kefir. Easiest is milk kefir. If you can get raw milk it is much less allergenic than pasteurized, homogenized dairy. The probiotics and other microflora are in balance and are a traditional fermented food. That will help his gut most, imo. Or water kefir, if you want to avoid all casein.

Otherwise, I'd consider rotating probiotics.

Definitely, I'd avoid almond flour in the house due to your other child's peanut allergy. You may consider NAET for clearing your son of coconut (and the other of peanut) reactions. Have you considered soaking whole grains? We do the Sue Gregg blender method of soaking whole barley, spelt, Kamut, rice, and steel cut oats. http://www.suegregg.com/recipes/brea...erwafflesA.htm

Pat


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Threelac had alot of great testimonials so I decided to try it. This was years ago. I have it to my dd and she was under two. She loved it! I think it helped alot, it just didn't address our underlying issue.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Anyone on Threelac might find this interesting.


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SAmama* 
Dd's skin seems to be clearing!! And her poops are looking more formed.







:

We started A Vogel's eczema formula a month or so ago. It is supposed to help liver and kidney function. Then we started enzymes between meals (for her) about two weeks ago (had been doing enzymes with meals for a long time). She was reacting horrendously, with moods, tantrums and terrible, terrible sleep. Oh, and her eczema was red and angry. Last week I gave her one dose of premixed Nystatin (with all the crap in it) and she flared up really bad. I wasn't sure if it was because of the colouring, etc. in it, or because of die-off, but decided not to do it again. Oh, somewhere last week I started adding GSE to her enzymes and then be sure to follow it up with some strong probiotics. More tantrums, flare-ups, etc. Now she is finally sleeping a little better (waking up only 4-5 times a night, as opposed to just about every hour... or waking up and not going back to sleep). But her skin looks fantastic, although she is still very itchy at night and at nap time (any clues why?). The best it has in two years!! Oh, and what made all this possible is that I taught her to take capsules last week. She was starting to really rebel against her enzymes, but thought it was pretty grand to take a tablet.

Today we started with the GAPS diet. We are only doing broth today, but will add meat tomorrow and then slowly add veggies.

I also have the opportunity to get some stuff from the US. I was thinking of either Threelac and Oxygen elements or Nystatin (the pure stuff) and a very good probiotic (she is using mine, Primal Defense, which she actually isn't supposed to get, according to the bottle). The person who will bring it has very limited space, so it is either or for us. I am leaning towards the Threelac, but am not sure. Any suggestions?

I am so happy to hear this! I know you and I pm'd a few times a while back and your dd's problems sounded so very similar to my dd. Enzymes are what really kick-started our healing too. And things only kept getting better after that. Once you really know that it is either yeast or bacteria causing the problems, it frees you up to be a lot more aggressive in pursuing healing measures. I also would not have been able to do any of this without getting my dd to take capsules.

My dd is on a round of Nystatin and she did flare from that too. Also from the GSE but then would get better when I persevered through the tough stuff. Die-off, I guess. Our holistic doc knew it was yeast when I told him about how she reacted to enzymes, GSE, etc. So he suggested a round of Nystatin and did a stool test and, sure enough there was yeast.

I am tempted by the Threelac but also nervous enough from some of the things I've read about it. I know it may not be true, but if by chance it is true, it's not something you can go back and change. The bacteria, once introduced, cannot be taken back out, you know? And since there are so many other ways of dealing with yeast, I don't think I'll take the chance with Threelac. If someone brings you probiotics, they'd need to be kept cold...don't know if that's a problem or not. If you can get it, I'd go for the Nystatin. It also comes in tablet form so that's another option now for your dd!

I am so happy for you. There is absolutely no better feeling in the world to know that your baby is getting better. Fair play to you! And good luck on the GAPS diet - I'm sure it will help too. And maybe you won't have to be on it too long if you keep up with the enzymes. Congratulations!!!


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

Checking in...

For Me:
I have been taking Tri-Enza with meals 2x a day and my other enzymes (Healthforce Nutritionals) with other meals. I have started with Virastop 1x a day and will be working it up starting tomorrow. I slipped a little and had some apple pie, but I just couldn't resist, especially since it was Marie Calendar's.
Once I get my virsatop up higher I will be adding in Candex and then rotating it with candidase. And if that's not good enough I will bring on some antifungals such as oregano or pau d'arco.

For my 28 month DD:
We have been using Zyme-prime with all meals and no real reactions, although she has had a bit of a rash on and off around her mouth. Just today we introduced AFP with a meal and will be slowly working it up. I also started her on 125mcg of Biotin a day mixed with 200mg of Magnesium(natural calm). She also gets brainchild vitamins and minerals and cod liver oil. And I also have started giving her milk thistle drops in her water.
Once the Afp is in every meal I will start the VSL #3, then after that I will get her on Candex.

I plan on getting some butter oil, maybe I will get it on Wednesday when I go to my first WAPF cooking class. I'm so excited.


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## SAmama (Oct 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joybird* 
I am so happy to hear this! I know you and I pm'd a few times a while back and your dd's problems sounded so very similar to my dd. Enzymes are what really kick-started our healing too. And things only kept getting better after that. Once you really know that it is either yeast or bacteria causing the problems, it frees you up to be a lot more aggressive in pursuing healing measures. I also would not have been able to do any of this without getting my dd to take capsules.

My dd is on a round of Nystatin and she did flare from that too. Also from the GSE but then would get better when I persevered through the tough stuff. Die-off, I guess. Our holistic doc knew it was yeast when I told him about how she reacted to enzymes, GSE, etc. So he suggested a round of Nystatin and did a stool test and, sure enough there was yeast.

I am tempted by the Threelac but also nervous enough from some of the things I've read about it. I know it may not be true, but if by chance it is true, it's not something you can go back and change. The bacteria, once introduced, cannot be taken back out, you know? And since there are so many other ways of dealing with yeast, I don't think I'll take the chance with Threelac. If someone brings you probiotics, they'd need to be kept cold...don't know if that's a problem or not. If you can get it, I'd go for the Nystatin. It also comes in tablet form so that's another option now for your dd!

I am so happy for you. There is absolutely no better feeling in the world to know that your baby is getting better. Fair play to you! And good luck on the GAPS diet - I'm sure it will help too. And maybe you won't have to be on it too long if you keep up with the enzymes. Congratulations!!!

Yes, I read and reread your pm's, especially after we seemed to get stuck and not move forward in healing. I really think it is the enzymes as well.
The Threelac sounds so simple, but dh is especially not comfortable with the strains in it. He would have to do more research and he definitely doesn't have time for it now. Neither do I. So, we might do the Nystatin. We can always do the Threelac later. We will get some kefir grains, finally! I am hoping that will help us as well.

This has been such a long journey and I am so tired of all of it. I really hope it is nearing an end.


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## SAmama (Oct 13, 2006)

Anybody have a source for pure Nystatin? I know it has to come from Canada.

Also, in searching for it I found this:

Quote:

Caraway promotes gastric secretion and stimulates appetite. It breaks down spasms in the gastrointestinal tract to prevent flatulence, but it is also used to treat menstrual cramps and gallbladder spasms. Caraway oil is strongly fungicidal, having a stronger anti-fungal and anti-yeast activity than the prescription medication Nystatin.
from this site http://www.tasteofnature.com/109.html
Anybody have any experience with it? And, where would I find actual caraway oil?


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
Momofmine, with soft stool, I'd be inclined to think it was not an anal fissure.

When I just did a search about FOS, I found this which isn't supportive of probiotics including FOS. http://www.healingcrow.com/ferfun/co...onspiracy.html

I'm a whole foods gal, so my recommendation is kefir. Easiest is milk kefir. If you can get raw milk it is much less allergenic than pasteurized, homogenized dairy. The probiotics and other microflora are in balance and are a traditional fermented food. That will help his gut most, imo. Or water kefir, if you want to avoid all casein.

Otherwise, I'd consider rotating probiotics.

Definitely, I'd avoid almond flour in the house due to your other child's peanut allergy. You may consider NAET for clearing your son of coconut (and the other of peanut) reactions. Have you considered soaking whole grains? We do the Sue Gregg blender method of soaking whole barley, spelt, Kamut, rice, and steel cut oats. http://www.suegregg.com/recipes/brea...erwafflesA.htm

Pat

Pat, thank you so very much for that link. I had forgotten all about that person, with the healing crow website. You know, we did the SCD years ago for my first child, when he was very little, and I knew then that FOS was a no-no on SCD and why it wasn't allowed.

My second child had no intestinal problems at all until this. I thought about doing the SCD again, but I thought, well, it would be so hard since we aren't doing nuts right now. BUT, I thought, I really should at least find a probiotic without FOS, but the doctor we saw recommended this from Klaire, and so many people talk about how Klaire is such a good probiotic, etc, etc. My gut was telling me maybe it wasn't right, becasue initially it caused a lot of gas and tummy rumbling, etc., but I pressed on anyway. And now I really think it was not the right thing for him. Some people may do fine with it, and it may even help them, but I think it is not right for us. I really think it caused yeast or something to overgrow for him, because after being on it for awhile, he started getting an itchy bottom, so I stopped them altogether and he had a terrible yeasty diaper rash. The doctor said, no, there is nothing in the probiotic that would cause that. But I think the FOS was the culprit. I think I am just going to make some 24 hour scd yogurt with raw milk from the local place here and try to just totally cut out the probiotics for a week and see what happens.

I react poorly to dairy, and I've really been wanting to look into making water kefir.

Does anyone know where I can get some water kefir grains?

Thank you also for the soaking grains link. I had been buying only sprouted bread, but I need to just try that.

Wow, I feel like you have just reminded me of all these things I knew to be true, but I let myself forget, or get swayed away from. Thank you, really, so much.

People should know that FOS is not a good choice for everyone. I know this for sure now. It may be the reason why some people react with such strong and violent diarrhea to probiotics.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SAmama* 
Also, in searching for it I found this:

from this site http://www.tasteofnature.com/109.html
Anybody have any experience with it? And, where would I find actual caraway oil?

That's really interesting. I'm not sure where you would find the oil. I have caraway seeds in my kitchen. I use it in coleslaw with cabbage.

Here's another link about it saying it is good for intestinal stuff, that in combination with peppermint oil:
http://www.doctormurray.com/newsletter/1-05-2003.htm

Not sure, but eager to hear more if you find out.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JacquelineR* 
Anyone on Threelac might find this interesting.

That's the one I was referring to. Everyone should go with their guts, but I found alot of problems with the research.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SAmama* 
Anybody have a source for pure Nystatin? I know it has to come from Canada.

Also, in searching for it I found this:

from this site http://www.tasteofnature.com/109.html
Anybody have any experience with it? And, where would I find actual caraway oil?

I use it in castor oil packs for gut inflammation. You can get it from many essential oil companies.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SAmama* 
Yes, I read and reread your pm's, especially after we seemed to get stuck and not move forward in healing. I really think it is the enzymes as well.
The Threelac sounds so simple, but dh is especially not comfortable with the strains in it. He would have to do more research and he definitely doesn't have time for it now. Neither do I. So, we might do the Nystatin. We can always do the Threelac later. We will get some kefir grains, finally! I am hoping that will help us as well.

This has been such a long journey and I am so tired of all of it. I really hope it is nearing an end.

I just posted this to the other thread regarding enterococcus faecalis and colon cancer concerns.

Quote:

"Bacteriocin ST8KF (bacST8KF), produced by Lactobacillus plantarum ST8KF *isolated from kefir*, inhibits the growth of Enterococcus faecalis E88."

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0

*Basically, consumption of kefir could inhibit the growth of Enterococcus faecalis.* And listeria and salmonella.

http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:17719671

And kefir appears to inhibit the growth of E. coli. http://lib.bioinfo.pl/auth:Vinderola,CG

I believe the presence of enterococcus faecalis without a lactic acid environment may be a variable allowing mutation. But, that is merely theoretical speculation. The second link discusses the lactic acid environment as an inhibitory process, in the presence of the other microbials in kefir, specifically.
Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 

I react poorly to dairy, and I've really been wanting to look into making water kefir.

Does anyone know where I can get some water kefir grains?

Thank you also for the soaking grains link. I had been buying only sprouted bread, but I need to just try that.


By "react poorly to dairy", are you concerned about the lactose, gas, eczema, mucus production, diarrhea? If you don't mind my prying. And don't feel compelled to respond. It is rather rhetorical, 'cause, if you can get raw milk, and ferment it, you shouldn't have all those issues...especially if you *get* *Guernsey milk*, rather than _Jersey_ dairy milk. Or if you have access to raw goat's milk, even less likely to cause "reacting poorly". Again, if fermented, even fewer potential allergens.

I suggest milk kefir grains, because it is so much easier than making water kefir, imo. And easier to get the grains. And the milk kefir has MORE probiotics.

I'm all into ease! That is why I LOVE Sue Gregg's blender batter method of soaking grains!! And they are delicious, and you can rotate grains, or make multi-grain gluten free. Yipee!







:

Pat


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## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)

sorry to be rude and butt in here as i haven't read everything yet (i am working on it) but i am really curious how does one go about healing the gut on a shoestring budget (and limited amounts of time to prepare and cook food etc)? it seems like everyone else is taking a long laundry list of supplements. we are on a limited income, my dh has been getting upset about even going to the hfs to get the stuff that i usually get there (especially the free range meat.) i know i have a leaky gut and i have 2 boys with food intolerances. i know that ds1 (almost 4 yo) is gluten, corn, soy, tomato, citrus, squash, and melon intolerant and ds2 (7 weeks old) so far seems to be gluten, casein, and possibly citrus intolerant but i am still trying to figure out all of his intolerances. i am really disappointed in myself for having gotten pregnant with ds2 without having resolved all of this! and now ds2 has a yeast rash on his bum.







neither have ever had oral thrush though. but i am feeling like the worst mom in the world, especially since ds1 has been eating all kinds of no-no foods because i have very little time to cook now.

also re:kefir grains. will converted milk kefir grains perpetually contaminate everything with casein? i bought some kefir grains before ds2 was born and now i am off all dairy because it was making ds2 vomit copiously and have green mucusy bms. i am thinking about getting some water kefir grains from ebay now if i can't use my milk kefir grains...


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joybird* 
Once you really know that it is either yeast or bacteria causing the problems, it frees you up to be a lot more aggressive in pursuing healing measures. I also would not have been able to do any of this without getting my dd to take capsules.

My dd is on a round of Nystatin and she did flare from that too. Also from the GSE but then would get better when I persevered through the tough stuff. Die-off, I guess. Our holistic doc knew it was yeast when I told him about how she reacted to enzymes, GSE, etc. So he suggested a round of Nystatin and did a stool test and, sure enough there was yeast.

joybird,

So, are you saying that just by trial and error, from her having those reactions, that's how you knew her problem was yeast and not bacteria?

I am just curious to know how I would know if the problem is yeast or bacteria. Unless I did a stool test, but I think JaneS posted something recently saying they aren't always very accurate.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
By "react poorly to dairy", are you concerned about the lactose, gas, eczema, mucus production, diarrhea?.

My reaction to dairy is sinus stuff, congestion. I would sometimes get a full-blown sinus infection if I ate too much of it.

I always ate dairy (conventional) as a child. As a teenager, I started getting repeated strep throat one year, for which I received multiple courses of abx. It always came back right away. I don't know how many courses of abx I had that year, but it was a lot. Finally, they took my tonsils out (not my choice, but I didn't know enough to protest at the time). After that, I STILL got sick. My mom was not happy. That was when she and I both began to learn about more natural healing.

She had me tested for allergies, and I came back as very allergic to dairy, cats and molds. My room was in the basement where our cat lived, and I ate lots of dairy. I believe all those abx created my mold allergy.

I got better eliminating dairy. After that, I would occasionally eat dairy, but if I ate too much in a row, I would wind up with a full-blown sinus infection (for which I would NOT take abx, though!). I test positive on allergy tests as being allergic to both cow and goat milk.

THEN I learned about raw milk, and I did start getting it regularly last year. I must call today and find out if they are Guernsey. I found that I could tolerate small amounts of it, as long as I didn't go overboard. If I ate it too many days in a row, I would get bad sinus stuff. I can't eat cheese at all, even the raw milk cheese. And I actually think it has gotten worse. Because I used to be able to tolerate some cheese, etc, but now, any at all gives me miserable sinus pain and congestion.

But to be honest, I have never tried doing JUST kefir or yogurt from the raw milk. In fact, I've never made kefir.

Here's my story with the raw milk though, and please, I would love perspective on this. I was mostly keeping dairy away from my kids, except for when my son did SCD years ago, we made the SCD yogurt on and off, sometimes with raw goat and sometimes with regular organic cow, and sometimes I would give him cheese. But I tried not to overdo it for either of them, because they both seemed to be less colicky when I eliminated all dairy while nursing.

Then, about a year ago, we were able to start getting raw milk locally, so I started buying that, and they would even just drink it (I had never given them fluid cow milk to drink before), or I would bake with it, etc. But I wasn't making yogurt or kefir. Then, in January of this year, they both got strep throat! Aaacckk, I thought. Of course, I immediately thought it was related to the dairy, so I temporarily gave away our cow share. They haven't had any dairy since January, until now.

BUT, I really now think that they are okay with the raw dairy, and maybe getting the probiotics through food would be good for them. I am going to go and get raw milk this morning. I am going to try doing JUST the fermented dairy. I stopped the probiotics for my 4 yr old the other day, the blood in his stool has cleared up from the coconut flour, so I bought organic yogurt at the hth food store until I could make some. I gave him raw milk cheese at the same time (I don't know why I didn't start just one at a time), and after just one day he started having a clear runny nose and a tiny bit of congestion. I am sure it is from the dairy, but it really might just be the cheese, and starting it all at once. I am going to do just kefir or yogurt.

Here is what I am wondering about the raw milk yogurt or kefir though. Do you still get the benefits of it being raw even though you are heating it to 180 degrees? Is there a way to make it and heat it less?

What kind of grains do you use for the kefir? I went to the HFS yesterday and bought the Yogourmet brand. I will order if there is something better. I am looking in Nourishing Traditions right now, and she lists kefir grains and kefir powder under sources.

Sorry this is so long, but your question just brought up exactly what I have been thinking about for months, trying to process all this in my head and wondering what to do, so this is very helpful. Thank you so much for reading.

ETA: Sorry, but I just read the directions for kefir in NT, and she does NOT heat it to 180! The Yogourmet kefir starter package says to heat it to 180 just like yogurt. She does heat the yogurt to 180 though.

Thank you!


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *desertpenguin* 
sorry to be rude and butt in here as i haven't read everything yet (i am working on it) but i am really curious how does one go about healing the gut on a shoestring budget (and limited amounts of time to prepare and cook food etc)?

I am so sorry you are going through this with a tiny new baby! Do NOT be mad at yourself. I would just take it one step at a time. Having a 7 week old baby is hard enough, and you want to enjoy this time with your new baby too!

The first thing I would do is cut out ALL sugar or highly processed stuff. You didn't say what you are eating. If you are gluten free, are you eating lots of GF processed stuff? That can make things worse, IMO. I know it seems hard to cook whole foods with a new baby, but try to not think of cooking recipes. Just cook food. Rinse off a chicken and throw some salt on it and roast it whole in the oven. It only takes 3 or 4 minutes to get it in the oven, really, and then you are done. Steam some veggies, you can even buy fresh stuff already prepped, if you really are feeling like you don't have time to even cut up veggies (which I completely understand with a newborn). Try to focus on just fresh, whole foods, and I believe eating that way is not more expensive if you aren't buying the boxed stuff.

Can you tolerate just probiotics? It seems like, of all the supplements, that's the one most people start with. You probably don't want to start a bunch of things at once anyway. Since you aren't doing any dairy for now, that seems to help a lot of people.

About FOS, it seems to be in lots of probiotics, and some people seem to be fine with it, it even helps them. But I think my family does not tolerate it well, at least not in large amounts. I would look for something without FOS to start out with at least.

Can you make bone broth? Even if you just get a chicken and throw it in a pot and let it simmer for a long long time. You can take the meat off and continue to simmer the bones for longer, and that's good. At least for you to drink. (I can't get my 4 yr old to drink broth, I wish I could.)

Good luck! I would just pick one thing and try that. That will be a lot less overwhelming.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

desertpenguin, I'd do bone broths, and make juice kefir with the milk kefir grains. The casein in kefir is not the same as the casein in most dairy milk. Or get water kefir grains. Those would be my main priorities. You can make yogurt also, often that is tolerated, even with dairy intolerance. Or consider goat's milk yogurt. Place it on the yeast on the bum.

It is _*hard*_ to "resolve all this", don't beat yourself up. That is useless energy. Just focus on what you *can do*.









Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 

Here is what I am wondering about the raw milk yogurt or kefir though. Do you still get the benefits of it being raw even though you are heating it to 180 degrees? Is there a way to make it and heat it less?

What kind of grains do you use for the kefir? I went to the HFS yesterday and bought the Yogourmet brand. I will order if there is something better. I am looking in Nourishing Traditions right now, and she lists kefir grains and kefir powder under sources.


I'm still a novice, heavy on the research, light on experience. But, it was interesting reading about your 'stuffy nose and sinus' issues. That is exactly my experience, but I really hadn't put 2 and 2 together about it. I don't consider myself dairy "intolerant", much, lol. I get irritable if I eat too much casein, and had a lot of pasteurized cheese this week and have a stuffy head and fullness in my ears...hmmm...

So, on that note, I haven't made yogurt myself. In the Traditional Foods forum, I believe I have heard that some folks do NOT heat the raw milk to make yogurt. Double check me on that, though. The point of heating is to kill bacteria; I don't think that is a preferable goal, however with raw milk. I'm not certain. And pristine handling would be necessary, so as not to introduce pathological bacteria to the raw milk yogurt.

For now, I'd get the conventional kefir. But, get REAL kefir grains asap. There is a mama on MDC which is an easy source. Here is her website: http://www.culturesforhealth.com/shop/ You can ask on the kefir thread in TF also. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=517191

The yahoogroup Kefir_Making, is my favorite source of info. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kefir_...guid=287472904

Also the MDC thread "Got Kefir?" http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=203282

Pat


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## bluets (Mar 15, 2005)

stuffiness, excess mucus, frequent sinus problems and frequent ear infections are all signs of a dairy intolerance, most likely casein intolerance. i speak from both experience and research. for my case, it doesn't matter if it is raw milk or pasteurized milk - i get gunky when i drink uncultured milk/cream or eat uncultured butter. raw milk cheese is turning out to be ok if i eat it in small amounts (1x per week or so)

casein can be broken down entirely by some choice microbes (L. delbrueckii specifically) in kefir (maybe L. delbrueckii is also in yogurt?) but only after a long culturing time (2 days or so - you should be able to clearly see separation between whey and curd)). i find that summertime long cultures end up swinging too much into the acetobacter realm which makes pretty nasty tasting kefir. wintertime long cultures taste strong but are at least edible.

for yogurt, you must get the milk to body temperature - that is the temperature at which the microbes are active.

of the two, kefir is easier because you dump the grains into your milk, park it on the counter and forget about it. yogurt is a little fussier and requires a bit more attention.


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## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)

momofmine - i have been eating too much rice cereal and rice milk. bad, i know! but i am trying to keep up with making various nut and seed milks which are healthier. as for the bone broth, the monthly coop here just opened and SCORE! ox tails and lots o' soup bones!







: if only the locally raised pastured chickens were even semi-affordable...i have been thinking more about doing conventional chicken that is hormone and antibiotic free so we can have more meat.

WuWei - is it possible to tolerate goat's milk yogurt or kefir when you can't tolerate goat's milk? we have a good source of raw milk (cow and goat) but since i have gone dairy free i called them and told them we wouldn't be picking up for at least a couple of months since we use so much less milk now and it's about a 45 minute drive one way. ds2 seemed to be reacting even when i was drinking goat's milk and from ghee too. i put raw acv, tea tree and lavender oil in his wipes water and using burt's bees rash cream and it seems to be helping. anyways i will try making grape juice kefir. i made it in the past and ds1 lurved it, maybe a little too much. haha. tried making it with cream of coconut concentrate but didn't realize the solids in the concentrate would separate so badly. hope my grains are still alive...

and thank you both for your replies!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *desertpenguin* 

WuWei - is it possible to tolerate goat's milk yogurt or kefir when you can't tolerate goat's milk? we have a good source of raw milk (cow and goat) but since i have gone dairy free i called them and told them we wouldn't be picking up for at least a couple of months since we use so much less milk now and it's about a 45 minute drive one way. ds2 seemed to be reacting even when i was drinking goat's milk and from ghee too.


Each individual is different. Yes, cultured (goat or cow) milk is totally different than even raw (goat or cow) milk, less allergenic because of the prebiotics and enzymes in the fermented product.

I consumed no dairy while ds was nursing due to his intolerances. If I were to do it again, knowing about probiotics, which I didn't know ANYTHING then, I'd do raw goat's milk yogurt for me and give it to ds directly, frankly. And be totally strict on eliminating ANY other casein from our diet. And I'd drink kefir made from coconut water and give some to infant ds...IF I'd known then. After age 1, I'd definitely drink raw milk kefir (while nursing) and give it to ds. But, that is the most conservative route, imo. I'm inclined to consider raw milk kefir directly for an infant. Just a tablespoon a day would be huge for probiotic benefits. Just my opinion.

We had to eliminate soy, corn, dairy, wheat, cinnamon, broccoli, tomatoes, onions, etc. etc. for ds to quit reacting with mucus stools, red anus, vomiting, painful burps. Once we did, no other symptoms. So, a bit of raw goat's milk yogurt and *Guernsey* dairy kefir would have more benefits than negatives, I believe. It is a cumulative thing, and the probiotic benefits tip the balance, *I* believe.

HTH, Pat


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
joybird,

So, are you saying that just by trial and error, from her having those reactions, that's how you knew her problem was yeast and not bacteria?

I am just curious to know how I would know if the problem is yeast or bacteria. Unless I did a stool test, but I think JaneS posted something recently saying they aren't always very accurate.

Well, I really don't/didn't know. I am presuming that there were problems with both yeast and bacteria. Her doc thinks yeast because of the die-off reactions, but from what I understand that can happen with bacteria as well. And then the stool test showed pos. for yeast. I haven't met with him yet since the test results - he e-mailed them to me. Either way, in order to heal we needed to cut out sugar and refined carbs. And doing a yeast treatment won't hurt anything, even if the problem is actually bacteria. But it seems to me that when you have gut dysbiosis, all the flora is messed up. And since I can't afford the expensive test from Genova that might be able to tell me for certain what is going on in there, I sort of chose to treat for both. The diets are similar so that's easy. To help control bacteria, I had her on S. Boulardii for a while and on Oregon Grape Root for a while as well. That's when her stool got better, but it was also around the same time we started doing lots of enzymes, which will also help with both yeast and bacteria.

So anyway, I don't know for sure. But I think when a stool test is negative for yeast is when it doesn't really mean much, since it could still be there. But when you get a positive test then it may be a little more telling, you know? She was also on the nystatin when we did the stool test, so whatever yeast she had was being flushed out enough that a regular lab test showed a pos. At least, that's my theory.


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Joy,

Would you mind spelling out the protocol you used for your LO one more time? I think it would be useful for my 4.5 yr old.


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Sure. Let's see if I can halfway remember it all. Dd was still nursing when we started so we both followed this protocol. She was 2 1/2

Eliminated all gluten/dairy/sugar/eggs/soy/grains. Did SCD for a while -maybe 2 months. We basically ate meat, fruit and veggies.
Houston's enzymes - started with Zymeprime at meals, later added Peptizyde and Nofenol between meals.
Strong probiotics and coconut yogurt daily.
Bone broth often
HVCLO
Evening Primrose Oil
Multivitamin
Milk thistle
Dandelion
MSM
Glutamine
N-Acetyl Glucosamine
Vit C, Zinc, Calcium
Eventually added Vitamineral Green Powder
S. Boularddi for 1 month or so
Oregon Grape Root 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off for about 2 months
Added Oil of Oregano or GSE with Peptizyde and Nofenol for a while

I'm sure I'm forgetting some. I think the most important things for us were diet (of course), enzymes, probiotics including the Boulardii, CLO and glutamine. It has taken a LONG time to get to where we're at now. I finally did the Nystatin because dd was still having very minor eczema spots every now and then and I couldn't figure out why. In the beginning her eczema never went away no matter what I eliminated. After we started all this, the flares became fewer and fewer and less dramatic over time. it was a very gradual thing, until finally she was clear. Although she did flare up any time she got sick, so I knew something was still not right.

I also had to give up on reaching a baseline because it just didn't happen for us. I had to focus on the healing, not on reactions. But I knew that there was more to the picture than just reactions to food, and she had no IgE allergies, so I focused on healing the gut flora as best I could. She is still GF and egg-free. I recently have been giving her 24-hour goat yogurt and she's doing fine with it. I hope to trial goat cheese next. I really don't think all the dietary restrictions will need to be forever, although if she's anything like me she'll always need to be careful with dairy and eggs.

Sorry for the book. It's been a long year. And to the mama who wonders how to pay for all this, I can only tell you that I could not afford it either. I bought/buy supplements on my credit card and am in debt for the first time in my life. I just didn't see any other options and my dp was not really given the choice about it, although he was on board with whatever I felt we needed to do. It does suck, though.

ETA: Forgot about the epsom salt baths. We also did those every day, 2 cups per tub. Dd still gets them in her bath because they are just a good way to draw out toxins and to get magnesium into the body.


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## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)

*WuWei* - oK so maybe before i convert my grains i should see about doing raw goat milk kefir. i wasn't sure what kinda cows they have so i looked it up on their website and they have 3 different kinds, including guernsey. we still have to return the milk jugs, so i think i might call her and see about getting goat's milk and just the guernsey cow's milk. not sure if they mix it all up or not. at what age would you start giving the kefir directly to the babe? at 6 mo and just deal with the possible vomiting, etc? i dunno if i could do that. i had corn chips last night and ds2 has been spitting up a lot today. i need to cut my hair so it's not in the possible vomit target area.







i am thinking about maybe getting an infant probiotic for ds2 come payday.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *desertpenguin* 
at what age would you start giving the kefir directly to the babe? at 6 mo and just deal with the possible vomiting, etc? i dunno if i could do that. i had corn chips last night and ds2 has been spitting up a lot today. i need to cut my hair so it's not in the possible vomit target area.







i am thinking about maybe getting an infant probiotic for ds2 come payday.

There is a lot of research now on probiotics for babies in NICU _*eliminating*_ necrotizing enterocolitis (basically necrotic gut). So, personally, I'm fine with 15cc or a tablespoon of live probiotics (kefir/yogurt) orally for an infant/newborn. Most folks are giving infants formula made from horrible cow's milk directly and then giving meds for the subsequent vomiting, gastric irritation, diarrhea, gas, etc. A little bit of goat or cow milk kefir ain't gonna hurt. Eliminating the corn and other allergens in your diet is the priority though!

If you are nursing, the baby is already getting some probiotics from your milk, and enzymes, etc. With infant probiotics, the concern is that powdered probiotics are killed rapidly when exposed to air, as compared to capsules. If you can get infant probiotics as capsules, then open them, you still have to add them to some liquid/yogurt to get them into baby. I think the kefir on a spoon (or syringe) is your easiest, most cost effective, LIVE probiotics, and with maximum benefits due to the 37 symbiotic microbials.

You might try some "gripe water" or "Tum-ease" which is just ginger and fennel extracts for any gastric distress. Those really helped us, when I had accidently eaten something. Also, there are Bio-Allers for dairy allergies. It is homeopathic. http://www.vitacost.com/NatraBio-Dai...C-371400705018

Pat


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
A little bit of goat or cow milk kefir ain't gonna hurt. Eliminating the corn and other allergens in your diet is the priority though!

I think that's pretty dangerous advice. A little bit of milk CAN hurt- even if it is raw, fermented, whatever. If the infant is already atopic, they could have a severe reaction, and if they're not- you might just cause sensitization and create an allergy!!

Infants IMHO should not be given ANYTHING except for mama's milk. When they are a little older and have a gut mature enough to digest another animals milk, then I would consider the dairy kefir, etc. But definitely not for an infant.

I know that raw milk products worked for you, but they do NOT work for everyone with dairy allergies!!! I think it is dangerous to push raw dairy/goat/whatever and think that it is the cure-all for every person with allergies. There are plenty of mamas on the Allergy board that have tried those things, only to have their LO react to it and get very sick (not to mention setting back whatever healing they had accomplished.)


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

We don't have to agree. 

I believe that there are more benefits to kefir than risks, even with dairy "intolerant" infants. The casein in kefir is different than pasteurized, homogenized generic cow's milk.

I trust that each mama can choose for herself what alternatives to consider.

We exclusively breastfed well into the second year~15 months. But, knowing now what I understand about the healthy gut, *I* would have introduced live cultured probiotics from raw goat's milk. There are possibilities of sensitization *benefiting* the immune system with regular exposure to allergens in small doses also.

This mama is treating her children holistically and homeopathically. Those optimize the immune system also. Traditional diets included cultured products, I believe that we benefit from supplementing our sterile diets similarly.

YMMV









Pat


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Id have to agree here. Milk from a cow or goat in whatever form is processed as a solid and as such has no business in an infant gut IMO. I would especially hold off in an allergic babe, but YMMV. I just know that IRL I have never seen that go well.

If baby is having discomfort due to accidental exposure I would heartily recommend a castor oil pack. You can put fennel into it if you like and it is accessed transdermally.


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

I agree as well. I would not give any other milk, even in tiny amounts, to a bf babe. It is easy enough to give them probiotic supplements.

But if the issue is that the probiotics are more likely to colonize the gut when delivered in a dairy medium, which I have heard, couldn't one just culture some breastmilk with non-dairy yogurt or kefir starter?


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

desertpenguin,

I think that if you are eating a lot of stuff like rice milk and rice cereal, that can throw your own gut balance off. For myself, what helps is to eat more meats and veggies and fruits, and soak whatever grains I do eat. I am not sure about the exactness of this, but isn't it true that babies are born with completely sterile guts, and their first introduction to bacteria is the trip through the birth canal. Then, nursing, and being in "this" world instead of mommy's tummy, their guts are slowly populated with bacteria. (Is that right, someone??) But even babies who are born via c-section, or babies who are not nursed, still get bacteria in their guts somehow. If you are nursing, then his gut is being populated with good bacteria from you, snuggling close to you, touching your skin, nursing, etc., it seems like that would be almost a constant process throughout the early months. (Does anyone know?) So I would focus on doing all you can to make your system balanced. You can get probiotics that are not cultured on dairy, and you can get ones that do or do not have FOS. Just be sure you are getting enough to eat so your milk supply doesn't dip.


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## xekomaya (Apr 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
I am not sure about the exactness of this, but isn't it true that babies are born with completely sterile guts, and their first introduction to bacteria is the trip through the birth canal. Then, nursing, and being in "this" world instead of mommy's tummy, their guts are slowly populated with bacteria. (Is that right, someone??) But even babies who are born via c-section, or babies who are not nursed, still get bacteria in their guts somehow. .

There is an article floating around here about this. I think it may be the "Just One Bottle" article? Not sure. Yes, you are right (as far as I've seen). The article that I read also mentioned that for very young babies, the colonization of the gut can be changed dramatically (or completely) in a couple weeks from nursing. Mama Milk has plenty of good bacteria for a pre-soilds babe.

Raw milk may work for some, but there is not a chance in the world I would be giving it to my dairy allergic son.

No one has mentioned yet that it is bifidus dominance that causes the infant gut to close. Giving an infant a mixed probiotic, like kefir, would potentially destroy that balance, and possibly do more harm.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

You said it's bifidus dominance that causes the infant's gut to close. What does that mean? When does it close? I think I have read that around age 4-5 years a child's bacteria changes to more like that of an adult's. My 4 yo is still nursing, granted not much, but would that change things? I wonder if maybe I should still be giving him a probiotic that is designed for babies.


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## MountainMamaGC (Jun 23, 2008)

Hello there. I have crohns disease and i have had 18 inches of my colon removed after an abcess perforated and almost killed me. That was 4 years ago. I havent had a flare for 3 years now and i want to maintain my remission. Here is what i take:

Enteric coated probiotics
Omega 3 fish oil (molecularly distilled)
Multivitamin with a B25 complex in it
Vitamin D 1000 IU
Digestive Enzyme pill with every meal
Calcium supplement

I do take the calcium later in the day so it doesnt interfere with the absorbtion of my other vitamins. I dont follow a specific diet but i do avoid processed food and i try my best to eat healthy.

Does this look good or does anyone have any suggestions?


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lydiah* 

Does this look good or does anyone have any suggestions?

Do you know about the Specific Carbohydrate Diet? If I had any form of IBD, I would be fanatically following the SCD.


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## xekomaya (Apr 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
You said it's bifidus dominance that causes the infant's gut to close. What does that mean? When does it close? I think I have read that around age 4-5 years a child's bacteria changes to more like that of an adult's. My 4 yo is still nursing, granted not much, but would that change things? I wonder if maybe I should still be giving him a probiotic that is designed for babies.

The gut closes around 6 months if all goes normally. It is up until that point that b. infantis is the dominant strain, and it is that dominance that helps the gut close. Babies are designed to have a leaky gut for proper/easy absorption of the proteins in breastmilk, and then to have that system close up for the introduction of solids and independent digestion. Babies' systems are DESIGNED for breastmilk. Any foreign proteins, especially those passed on by a mom with leaky gut, can cause sensitization/allergies.

I can't remember at what age different probiotics become appropriate. My ds is young, but I think by 4 you could/should be using "regular" probiotics. I'm sure someone else has that info.

Quote:

-infant formula should not be given to a breastfed baby before gut closure occurs

-once dietary supplementation begins, the bacterial profile of breastfed infants resembles that of
formula-fed infants in which bifidobacteria are no longer dominant and the development of
obligate anaerobic bacterial populations occurs (Mackie, Sghir, Gaskins, 1999)

- relatively small amounts of formula supplementation of breastfed infants (one supplement per 24
hours) will result in shifts from a breastfed to a formula-fed gut flora pattern (Bullen, Tearle,
Stewart, 1977)

- the introduction of solid food to the breastfed infant causes a major perturbation in the gut
ecosystem, with a rapid rise in the number of enterobacteria and enterococci, followed by a
progressive colonization by bacteroides, clostridia, and anaerobic streptococci (Stark & Lee,
1982)

- with the introduction of supplementary formula, the gut flora in a breastfed baby becomes almost
indistinguishable from normal adult flora within 24 hours (Gerstley, Howell, Nagel, 1932)
- if breast milk were again given exclusively, it would take 2-4 weeks for the intestinal
environment to return again to a state favoring the gram-positive flora (Brown & Bosworth, 1922;
Gerstley, Howell, Nagel, 1932)
Taken from Just One Bottle and the reason why a lot of us won't supplement a very young baby.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Thank you so much, this is so amazing to me. I mean, I just think our bodies are pretty amazing. What is even more amazing is how much we do AND don't know, yet conventional medicine keeps giving us antibiotics and other stuff that harm our perfect intestinal tracts.


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## SAmama (Oct 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
Do you know about the Specific Carbohydrate Diet? If I had any form of IBD, I would be fanatically following the SCD.

Or the GAPS diet, whih is similar. I have also heard good things about the Guts and Glory program by Jordan Rubin (and some other guy), but don't know what it is about. I think he has a book and you can probably get it from your library.


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## SAmama (Oct 13, 2006)

Desertpenguin, you can use coconut milk instead of rice milk. It is great in drinks, soups, smoothies, stews, custards, deserts, salad dressings, anything really. I also used it to make yogurt and made cheese by accident one time. Some mamas make the milk from dry coconut flakes (find unsweetened).
I made the yogurt just like you would with dairy milk, but I know firefaery posted a recipe on one of the healing the gut threads a long time ago.

We used to have buckwheat or millet pancakes with sauerkraut, garlic and coconut yogurt for breakfast. Sounds wacky, but some very skeptical guests tried it and actually had seconds.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *xekomaya* 
The gut closes around 6 months if all goes normally. It is up until that point that b. infantis is the dominant strain, and it is that dominance that helps the gut close. Babies are designed to have a leaky gut for proper/easy absorption of the proteins in breastmilk, and then to have that system close up for the introduction of solids and independent digestion. Babies' systems are DESIGNED for breastmilk. Any foreign proteins, especially those passed on by a mom with leaky gut, can cause sensitization/allergies.

I can't remember at what age different probiotics become appropriate. My ds is young, but I think by 4 you could/should be using "regular" probiotics. I'm sure someone else has that info.

Taken from Just One Bottle and the reason why a lot of us won't supplement a very young baby.

Gut flora does start to change around 6 months, but I wouldn't really introduce another strain until solids are being introduced. Until 6 months I believe the dominant strain is B. infantis and then slowly the other bifidobacterium strains step up.

The problem is the use of antibiotics, C sections (which I realize are sometimes necessary), poor maternal flora and poor latch. Really, if mama is healthy, has a physiologically normal birth and babe is able to feed properly then these things wouldn't be an issue.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
Thank you so much, this is so amazing to me. I mean, I just think our bodies are pretty amazing. What is even more amazing is how much we do AND don't know, yet conventional medicine keeps giving us antibiotics and other stuff that harm our perfect intestinal tracts.

Honestly it's because that is the system we have asked for. Do you know how many people if presented with the option of changing their lifestyle and diet vs. taking a pill are going to take the latter? We are a pill popping society and because we clamor for it they provide. I'm not saying there isn't corruption-far from it. We just need to realize that even amongst the people in natural living communities drugs are asked for. It is radical to not want them. Most people say they don't want "as many" but they still do want them.

Also understand that it is a different paradigm. Modern medicine used Descartes' paradigm. Man is viewed as a sum of his parts, not a whole. Modern medicine doesn't take the emotional or mental health into account and as such sees the body as a piece of machinery where, if you do something to the gut, all you affect is the gut. *WE* know that's not true, but if we don't like their paradigm we have to know not to utilize it, you know?

I know that it's hard to get to this point, but we have to stop seeing big pharma as the enemy and just take control of our own well being. Things have been different historically in many parts of the world. In China, until RECENTLY people paid doctors to keep them healthy. If they got sick, tey were treated for free until they regained health. That's a true health care system, what we have here is a disease care system. It's up to us as individuals to seek out healthcare if what we want to attain is health.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery* 
We just need to realize that even amongst the people in natural living communities drugs are asked for. It is radical to not want them. Most people say they don't want "as many" but they still do want them.

This is so true. I feel like from the very start of my pregnancy with my first child, I wanted everything as natural "as possible". Like, I had my first baby in a free-standing birth center because I didn't want ANY medical interventions if I didn't need them, yet I had a shot of abx in labor. Because I felt at the time that I "needed" them. Now, I feel very differently. And I felt like even with that mindset I was being radical and going against the norm.

I believe it's that I grew up with the mindset that is common in our culture that there is an absolute truth, an absolute right and wrong choice or answer for every situation, and that is just not true. But that's how modern medicine functions. Take this antibiotic for that illness, take these vaccines at exactly 2 months, for everyone no matter what.

And it is only when I found out by experience that even one round of abx can throw off your intestinal tract by this much, that I am seeing this. Most people will tell you, well, one round of abx won't hurt, it's not like you are using them all the time, etc, etc. Yes it absolutely can.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bluets* 
stuffiness, excess mucus, frequent sinus problems and frequent ear infections are all signs of a dairy intolerance, most likely casein intolerance. i speak from both experience and research. for my case, it doesn't matter if it is raw milk or pasteurized milk - i get gunky when i drink uncultured milk/cream or eat uncultured butter. raw milk cheese is turning out to be ok if i eat it in small amounts (1x per week or so)

casein can be broken down entirely by some choice microbes (L. delbrueckii specifically) in kefir (maybe L. delbrueckii is also in yogurt?) but only after a long culturing time (2 days or so - you should be able to clearly see separation between whey and curd)). i find that summertime long cultures end up swinging too much into the acetobacter realm which makes pretty nasty tasting kefir. wintertime long cultures taste strong but are at least edible.

for yogurt, you must get the milk to body temperature - that is the temperature at which the microbes are active.

of the two, kefir is easier because you dump the grains into your milk, park it on the counter and forget about it. yogurt is a little fussier and requires a bit more attention.

bluets,
So you can occasionally eat cultured stuff okay? Is that because culturing it helps break down the casein?


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery* 
Honestly it's because that is the system we have asked for. Do you know how many people if presented with the option of changing their lifestyle and diet vs. taking a pill are going to take the latter? We are a pill popping society and because we clamor for it they provide. I'm not saying there isn't corruption-far from it. We just need to realize that even amongst the people in natural living communities drugs are asked for. It is radical to not want them. Most people say they don't want "as many" but they still do want them.

That's so true. A year ago if you would have asked me, I would have told you that I was pretty healthy. Ha ha. I know so much more now....

I can say that is one good thing (really the only good thing) that has come from all this food allergy mess- I have really educated myself about my body and about nutrition, and am working to get myself as healthy as I can. I think it will really have positive long-term effects for my entire family. I'm glad that I have so many smart mamas to teach me.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
You said it's bifidus dominance that causes the infant's gut to close. What does that mean? When does it close? I think I have read that around age 4-5 years a child's bacteria changes to more like that of an adult's. My 4 yo is still nursing, granted not much, but would that change things? I wonder if maybe I should still be giving him a probiotic that is designed for babies.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *xekomaya* 
The gut closes around 6 months if all goes normally. It is up until that point that b. infantis is the dominant strain, and it is that dominance that helps the gut close. Babies are designed to have a leaky gut for proper/easy absorption of the proteins in breastmilk, and then to have that system close up for the introduction of solids and independent digestion. Babies' systems are DESIGNED for breastmilk. Any foreign proteins, especially those passed on by a mom with leaky gut, can cause sensitization/allergies.

I can't remember at what age different probiotics become appropriate. My ds is young, but I think by 4 you could/should be using "regular" probiotics. I'm sure someone else has that info.

Taken from Just One Bottle and the reason why a lot of us won't supplement a very young baby.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery* 
Gut flora does start to change around 6 months, but I wouldn't really introduce another strain until solids are being introduced. Until 6 months I believe the dominant strain is B. infantis and then slowly the other bifidobacterium strains step up.

The problem is the use of antibiotics, C sections (which I realize are sometimes necessary), poor maternal flora and poor latch. Really, if mama is healthy, has a physiologically normal birth and babe is able to feed properly then these things wouldn't be an issue.

My position is that these evaluations and assessments of infant gut microflora are not on *healthy* normal baby guts exclusively breastfed by mothers consuming traditional fermented, probiotic, prebiotic and enzyme rich diets. The infant guts researched are those infants in NICU undergoing assault by multiple antibiotics, premature guts, etc. To assess that a "normal" infant gut is related to these findings in the Western culture, is a huge stretch for me to assume accuracy.

To me, it makes more sense that a traditional diet would enhance multi-strain probiotics, prebiotics and enzymes from breastmilk and other fermented foods at a very early age. In many cultures, infants are given "pacifying" things to chew, suck, placed on fingers to occupy the infant. The gut has several HUNDREDS of bacterial species, along with yeasts, etc. We hardly "know" that a singular B. infantis is a "normal" dominant, because I suggest that we are not able to discretely identify variants of probiotics from each other...yet. And we are not studying *normal* cultured guts.

The symbiotic microbials in kefir and other fermented foods ARE the "normal" diet; however the majority of mothers of babies "studied" don't have the benefit of those prebiotics, probiotics, enzymes, and indiginous microflora from a non-anti-microbial environment and diet.

It is like studying broken down cars and saying that they all *domintantly* need gasoline to make them run. We only *see* what we know/choose to look for, and (thus) our "conclusions" are merely based upon the sample studied.

Here is a fabulous source of research regarding infant gut microflora. http://www.ingentaconnect.com/search...x=0&search.y=0 Look at the sample origins, it is mostly NICU babies.

Pat


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

That's a good point, changingseasons, thank you for pointing out the positive. I thought I already was too, but now I know so much more from our most recent experience.


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

I went to a WAP class and learned how to make sauerkraut, fermented apple cider, kambucha and more.
*Questions:
Is Kambucha a good thing for myself? I have yeast and thyroid/adrenal issues, and was wondering about the caffeine aspect. Also is is safe/good for my 28 month old?
Same thing with the fermented apple cider...is it ood for me and/or my daughter?
I have a mother and baby ready to go but I want to make sure there isn't any reason to avoid them.Thanks!*


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

http://www.medindia.net/news/view_news_main.asp?x=15120

_Kefir, a traditional fermented drink, is generally used as a weaning food. The researchers found that it has "friendly" bacteria that may function in obstructing the pathway involved in allergic responses.

This milk drink also prevented the antigens found in food to pass through the intestinal wall._

http://www.foodsciencecentral.com/fsc/bulletin-ff-free

Russians give their babies milk kefir diluted with water when they're as young as 4 months old.

"Milk kefir and soymilk kefir may be considered among the more promising food components in terms of preventing food allergy and enhancement of mucosal resistance to gastrointestinal pathogen infection."
http://allergy.immunodefence.com/200...lp-f.html#more
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18285077

ETA: Bacteria, Our Unseen Allies, http://books.google.com/books?id=9u6...um=4&ct=result

Pat


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## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)

oK, i finally read the thread in it's entirety and trying to remember everything i wanted to address.

as far as giving the babe probiotics/kefir. i am hopefully going to get an infant probiotic on payday and start giving that to ds2 and see if i feel like it is making any difference. if not, i will discontinue it. i know our hfs carries water buffalo yogurt, so i am going to get that and try it too to see if ds2 reacts through my bm. if not, it will be one more food-source probiotic i can add. i will see about trying the raw milk goat and guernsey kefir next week, culturing for two days. if that goes well by ds2 not reacting through my bm, we will continue with that. if not i will be converting my kefir grains either to coconut milk or grape juice. when ds2 is 6+ mo i think i will try pumping and making kefir from my bm and then transition to animal milk kefir and see how it goes. i think i may get some water kefir grains soon too, just because. it seems quicker than cleaning and chopping veggies for ferments, though i intend to add that too as i can. there are some kefir grains for a decent price on ebay, which is where i have gotten all my kefir grains in the past.

as for my diet. i realize i am overloading on the carbs with the rice milk and rice cereal. and it's bad for my gut i have been trying to use the rice milk as back up only, when i have not had time to soak nuts/seeds to make milk with. canned coconut milk is kinda expensive so i can't really use it as my main milk. i've just been doing the rice cereal because breakfast is the hardest meal of the day. i'm not too worried about my milk supply. i have problems with oversupply actually. i wonder if it is related to being slightly hypothyroid.

is l-tyrosine safe to take while breastfeeding a small baby? someone mentioned it earlier. i know i am at least somewhat hypothyroid and i was taking it (irregularly, i have a hard time remembering to take stuff daily) before i got pregnant w/ ds2 and still have at least half a bottle of it.

i am looking into a lot of the other things that have been discussed here. sorry this is so long!


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
http://www.medindia.net/news/view_news_main.asp?x=15120

_Kefir, a traditional fermented drink, is generally used as a weaning food. The researchers found that it has "friendly" bacteria that may function in obstructing the pathway involved in allergic responses.

This milk drink also prevented the antigens found in food to pass through the intestinal wall._

http://www.foodsciencecentral.com/fsc/bulletin-ff-free

Russians give their babies milk kefir diluted with water when they're as young as 4 months old.

"Milk kefir and soymilk kefir may be considered among the more promising food components in terms of preventing food allergy and enhancement of mucosal resistance to gastrointestinal pathogen infection."
http://allergy.immunodefence.com/200...lp-f.html#more
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18285077

ETA: Bacteria, Our Unseen Allies, http://books.google.com/books?id=9u6...um=4&ct=result

Pat

It is *my* personal stance that I have not yet seen a healthy person in the US, so what's true for traditional societies isn't necessarily what should be done here. These babies were exposed to all the issues their grandmothers faced as well as their mothers, first hand. There is alot that has happened to those bodies.

Other cultures and traditional peoples did not have the concerns we do of adulterated, processed products along with the overconsumption of dairy (and other allergens, not pertinent to this discussion.) We have pretty much cornered the market on that. Those studies aren't really applicable to our very sick nation.

It's definitely something we all have to make our own choices on.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

The full study report, "Kefir reduces permeation and therefore proposed that kefir is of use to prevent food allergy":: http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bbb/69/1/249/_pdf

ETA: *This article discusses rare kefir allergic reactions*, more commonly in infants, generally presumed due to other allergen contaminates, such as antibiotics, insecticides, chicken protein, pollen and bacteria, or penicillin having been identified as allergens in the milk base. http://www.acaroid.com/dokumente/en/...f08813c87f8e1a

Pat


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

but that's irrelevant if they have been exposed through mom's breastmilk from birth. If mom's gut was leaking that whole time and antigens have already formed then they are already sensitized.

What I'm saying is that those more isolated people wouldn't have had the gut issues MOM has here.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

_CONCLUSION: These results suggest that probiotic bacteria may promote endogenous barrier mechanisms in patients with atopic dermatitis and food allergy, and by alleviating intestinal inflammation, may act as a useful tool in the treatment of food allergy.
_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9042042Pat


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

I understand that, but I am simply saying I don't buy it for dairy allergic kiddos. I can see how it might be *possible* for other allergies, but kiddos who are already sensitized having an inflammatory response, potentially with bleeding and excess mucus production may not have the same response at all. I don't buy for one second (and this is just me) that it will address the inflammation that is a RESULT of dairy across the board.

I had a kid that couldn't handle homeopathic remedies or mom eating a bit of butter (raw and pastured butter) without bloody green stool and two days of screaming and what I'm saying is that kefir wasn't likely to help in that instance.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I heartily agree that our guts are crap for intestinal health. What I keep seeing is that probiotics *treat* by alleviating intestinal inflammation.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...obiotics2.aspx

*Probiotics in primary prevention of atopic disease:*
*A randomised placebo-controlled trial*
_The notion of probiotics use in primary prevention of atopic disease was based on their ability to reverse increased intestinal permeability24--characteristic of children with atopic eczema and food allergy.25 Probiotics also enhance gut-specific IgA responses,24 which are often defective in children with food allergy.26 They also help to promote gut barrier function and restore normal gut microecology,15 alterations in which have been shown in allergic individuals.27_
http://www.health-report.co.uk/probi...ic_disease.htm

_
Yet, even when gastrointestinal permeability is increased by food antigens, probiotics like Lactobacillus GG can counteract these permeability disorders_.
Conclusion In this study a combination of Lactobacillus rhamnosus and Bifidobacteria lactis improved Atopic Dermatitis only in food sensitized children.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0

Pat


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

I think that's true, I just wouldn't for any amount of money give them in a dairy base (nevermind what it's cultured on) to an allergic infant that had been presenting with signs already.

I am very pro-probiotic, I am not pro-kefir at 4-6 months. Not in this country anyway!


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## mombh (May 6, 2003)

:

I just read the discussions on probiotics









I am about 29 weeks and about a month ago had to take abx due to really bad tooth abcess, I didn't get yeast or feel any bad reactions to it but I am concerned since my 2 youngest have food allergies and I think it was due to gut issues with me the mama. I have been supplementing with different probiotics, drinking kombucha, and eating my own homemade yogurt and fermented veggies...although I am abit tired lazy and my tastes are a little off lately and it seems the only thing I really "feel" like is the store bought strawberry kombucha by synergy, I think it used to be g.t. dave or something.
What are your thoughts on this since it is store bought and not cultured at home ???? anyone?/ is it still worth drinking it???

btw, this pregnancy I am gf, stay away from peanut butter, eat as much tf as I can stomach or have the energy to make and have been for the past 3-4 yrs, and hoping it will make a difference this time around


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mombh* 
What are your thoughts on this since it is store bought and not cultured at home ???? anyone?/ is it still worth drinking it???

btw, this pregnancy I am gf, stay away from peanut butter, eat as much tf as I can stomach or have the energy to make and have been for the past 3-4 yrs, and hoping it will make a difference this time around









You may find more info in this old thread "*how not to have an allergic child*": http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=471144

You might try making juice kefir. It is tasty and easy with milk kefir grains. Just 1:1 juice (100% juice) to water (chlorine-free), plus kefir grains; sit 12-24 hours on the counter~ to taste. This MDC mama at this link has water kefir and juice kefir grains: http://www.culturesforhealth.com/shop/

I'd keep up the kombucha in any way you can, and yogurt (goat's milk preferred), as often as possible. Also, are you getting magnesium supplementation, it is often depleted in our diets and essential for immune system and hormone support.

Pat


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

I would also keep folate rather high, focus on B vitamins in general as well as A and D. There is alot of info emerging about the importance of these in the whole allergy field.


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## tooticky (Mar 30, 2006)

Are any of you gut healers vegetarians? Bone broth sounds very nutritious and healing, but I am wondering about other ways to heal that don't involve meat.

We currently take probiotics, CLO, and may start with enzymes soon.

_ETA: When we do drink dairy, it's raw._

We are also in the middle of a TED.

I have searched this Healing the Gut Tribe thread with the keyword "vegetarian" but did not come up with much...

TIA


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

A lot of gut healing has to do with reducing/eliminating carbohydrates in order to help restore healthy gut flora, so I think it would be pretty hard to do without consuming any meat. Not saying impossible, but I know we relied very heavily on the calories and nutrients provided by all kinds of sustainably-raised meat.

You can use L-glutamine as a replacement for the glutamine found in broths, but it is not the same thing as getting the gelatin and natural glutamines and also calcium and other minerals that are found in the actual food.


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## tooticky (Mar 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joybird* 
A lot of gut healing has to do with reducing/eliminating carbohydrates in order to help restore healthy gut flora, so I think it would be pretty hard to do without consuming any meat.

Hmmm.... Interesting.

I don't think I have any symptoms of a leaky gut (or am I in denial?







) but it is a possibility that dd does. She has had eczema for most of her life, and took a steroid inhaler for wheezing off and on for about a year.

Reading through the first thing that came up when I googled "Leaky Gut Symptoms" (http://www.caringmedical.com/conditi...t_Syndrome.htm
said that corticosteroids could cause a leaky gut.... Not sure how reputable this site is, but it was an interesting connection for me.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tooticky* 
Hmmm.... Interesting.

I don't think I have any symptoms of a leaky gut (or am I in denial?







) but it is a possibility that dd does. She has had eczema for most of her life, and took a steroid inhaler for wheezing off and on for about a year.

Reading through the first thing that came up when I googled "Leaky Gut Symptoms" (http://www.caringmedical.com/conditi...t_Syndrome.htm
said that corticosteroids could cause a leaky gut.... Not sure how reputable this site is, but it was an interesting connection for me.

Yep- lots of things can cause leaky gut- steroids, NSAIDS, antibiotics, poor diet, etc.


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## SAmama (Oct 13, 2006)

So, we have been doing this modified Gaps diet for almost a week now. The first two days dh and I felt super tired and I ended day two with a splitting headache and feeling very nauseous. This has also been a very clumsy, forgetful week. Dd however seemed just great for the first few days. She is still nursing a LOT, so she is getting heaps of milk sugar. Anyway, we really restricted the veggies we started with to try and make sure they are digested well by her - carrots, onions, broccoli, cauliflower and squash. I think I went a bit overboard with the squash the last three days and now dd's eczema is flaring worse than it did in weeks.







I also took ghee out and then added it back in right around the time of the squash, because I was so sure that neither was a problem. The thing is that we ate bowls full of ghee (really, we eat a lot) last week before we started this diet, and her skin was starting to clear. That makes me think it is the squash. I am pretty sure that she cannot tolerate zuchini, so it probably makes sense. Anyone have any other ideas?

So, I feel like going back to how we ate earlier, but add a lot of bone broth and avoid grains and starches. Sigh, I was hoping that this diet would put us on the fast track to healing.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

I'm so sorry. There is no one right diet for everyone, and this is just part (a frustrating part!) of the journey. I have made several decisions that in hindsight turned out to be major steps backwards. It happens, but it's all information.

It may be the right diet, just not right *now.* And what if you did it but just took out the squash? There are so many ways to do any of these "diets" it's just a matter of finding balance.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

I am not sure what the modified Gaps diet is, but what else are you eating? Any grains? Because I think zuchini is usually very well-tolerated. Of course, it can be absolutely anything. And overdoing any food can cause a temporary allergy to that. My good friend whose daughters had very bad eczema when they were young, could not eat any one food more often than once every four days. Maybe with her eczema like it is, instead of trying to eliminate so much at once, you could try eating slightly more foods, enough to be able to rotate everything. It seems like with eczema that is more important. When my child had eczema reactions to food, it was always because of eating them too frequently, because I was eliminating so many things trying to figure out what was causing the intestinal symptoms. So it was a double whammy. But they were bigger allergens, eggs and beef.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Hi friends,
I am looking for your opinions. My kids were getting a probiotic with FOS in it, and after a time, I was starting to think that the probiotics were actually making it worse, and that maybe they were just sensitive to the FOS. I stopped the probiotics for my LO, and gave him yogurt instead. He started having a runny nose and congestion. Maybe it was from the yogurt, maybe it's just a cold, but I stopped it. He has not complained of "my tummy hurts" at all, which he was having before. (The tummy hurting statements were very transient before, and I think it might have been because of the probiotics causing tummy rumbling, and that's just how he described it. Because it never stopped him from playing etc, and it would usually be gone ten minutes later, sometimes an hour later, but still.)

Now, I really don't know what to do. He actually had normal poops for two days on the yogurt. Then I let him have a coconut macaroon yesterday, and I don't know if that caused this again, but he had a loose stool this morning.

The coconut flour bothered him before, but the coconut macaroons never did. I wanted to try coconut yogurt, because I wwant to get SOME kind of probiotics into him TODAY. But now I'm worried that the coconut yogurt will give him loose stool too.

What should I do? I could go to the HFS and try to find some probiotics without FOS in them. I could make coconut yogurt. Or I could give him the probiotics with the FOS in them again, and just expect some looser stool.

Do you think the coconut yogurt would bother him if he couldn't tolerate the coconut flour and macaroons? I guess I am thinking that maybe that was just the fiber in them that was upsetting things.

Any thoughts?? Thanks all.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Sorry for the multiple postings here... but thanks for all those links about gut bacteria. I also agree that what we see as "normal" here in the U.S. doesn't necessarily mean normal. I mean, if they say, here is what a normal adult's bowel movement looks like, or here are the bacteria in a normal adult. They are meaning an adult who has likely had vaccines, antibiotics, possibly eats a typical American diet.

As for dairy, I am so very torn. On the one hand, I feel like people around the world eat fermented dairy and it does their health very good. On the other hand, some indigenous cultures don't eat dairy after weaning, but instead they eat other types of fermented foods. Also, traditionally, people wouldn't have had access to running water, etc, so they would have eaten fresh from the field or forest, without washing stuff off, so would there be microorganisms on their food that way too? Bacteria specifially?

I am just feeling like maybe for my 4 yr old, he needs to get some probiotics from food. I have read that is often colonizes the gut better that way than in pill form. Is this correct?

If I make kefir water or juice, is it as good of a probiotic as raw milk kefir or yogurt?

I would still have to order the grains, make the stuff, etc, and I feel I need to give him something TODAY. I don't know what to do.

I have raw milk, but he has a runny nose and congestion with no fever at all, and it just really seems like dairy wouldn't help that right now. I have always heard to cut out dairy at those times.


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## GoddessKristie (Oct 31, 2006)

Are digestive enzymes something you always have to take? My LO has allergy related eczema. We're on an ED right now to find the culprits (so far identified corn and soy), and I'm planning for long-term gut healing. I also am sensitive to grains and am prepared to TTC #2 in the next year. So, my question is this: if I try digestive enzymes and they help is that something I would always have to take or is that something I can take until my gut is healed and then stop?
This is all very new to me.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

SAmama, I agree that rotation diets really help a lot of folks, I've heard.

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Momofmine, when I posted about wanting kefir grains, I had two leads within days and just picked them up locally. We are in a large city, though.

I went to EarthFare yesterday and bought every type of probiotics food and children's version of supplements. I hope to find some that ds will take consistently. He'll drink the grape juice kefir occasionally. He likes some yogurts, but they have soy. And I'm trying to avoid the soy. So, I hope he'll like a yogurt pushup or flavored drinkable yogurt. These are pasteurized dairy, even. I also bought some of those new Attune chocolate bars and Bubbles pickles. I rested my kefir grains in water and use the water to dilute some juice.

I figure the "buckshot" approach will at least add some probiotics to his diet.

I bought some probiotics with the FOS. I figure trial and error has value too.

It sounds like the coconut may be an issue for your son. But, quantity may be the variable for you all also.

Do I recall that you couldn't do almond flour? What about barley, spelt, oats, and soaking the whole grains or soaking the flour, or sprouting grains for flour, instead?

I definitely don't think you "have to" have raw dairy or fermented dairy. But, there are perceived benefits and perceived "risks". And some folks are actually *allergic*. I wouldn't consider a runny nose and loose poop as reasons to avoid fermented dairy. Some of the benefits haven't been isolated or defined. The assumption is that the significant microflora of juice kefir and kombucha have similar benefits. Just as I assume there are benefits from all the probiotic foods I bought yesterday. As "good as" a traditional diet?, probably not. And, we are adding traditional foods as much as possible concurrently.

We each weigh the available alternatives with the perceived benefits against the perceived risks. I don't believe there is ONE right answer. And with kids, "as soon as you figure it out, it changes".

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
Also, traditionally, people wouldn't have had access to running water, etc, so they would have eaten fresh from the field or forest, without washing stuff off, so would there be microorganisms on their food that way too? Bacteria specifially?

Was it this thread that discussed the "Primal Defence" which actually is a Homeostatic Soil Organism Probiotic Blend utilizing 12 species of beneficial microorganisms. http://www.gardenoflife.com/Products...8/Default.aspx

Basically dirt microbs.

Pat


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Yes, it certainly does! You are so right!

As for the FOS, I am baffled and dont know what to think. Elaine Gottschall always said that the FOS could feed the yeast or certain bad bacteria, or cause the bifidus to overgrow. Yes, there is some, but she was saying too much isn't good either, because then it would be pushing other good ones out. It is all a balance. Which is why I do learn towards the idea of getting the probiotics through food, because it seems that way it would be a more natural way of acquiring them. However, the abx we used weren't natural, so I feel like maybe we need something more to get over that! As for the FOS, the probiotics with the FOS caused more tummy rumbling and looser poops. Then once I had worked my way up to a significant amount, it helped, and the poops started normalizing, but then he started having blood, and seemed to suddenly be irritated by things that he was eating fine before (gluten, coconut). So my take on it was that the FOS was causing some inflammation or irritation, or possibly causing a greater increase of the wrong kinds of bacteria.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

joybird, or anyone else,
You posted something a while back about how once you figure out whether the problem is more yeast or bacteria, then it helps in knowing what to hit it with. Which things help which? And how do you figure that out?


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoddessKristie* 
Are digestive enzymes something you always have to take? My LO has allergy related eczema. We're on an ED right now to find the culprits (so far identified corn and soy), and I'm planning for long-term gut healing. I also am sensitive to grains and am prepared to TTC #2 in the next year. So, my question is this: if I try digestive enzymes and they help is that something I would always have to take or is that something I can take until my gut is healed and then stop?
This is all very new to me.

Yes you can take and then stop. Your body in no way becomes dependent on them. Whether your intestinal inflammation retreats and your own intestinal villi are repaired, your gut flora balanced, and your stomach acid strengthened, is the test of healing.

Ideally, one can learn to craft a diet filled with enzyme rich food: raw animal foods and fermented grains/fruit/veggies/beverages to save your own enzymes for body repair and your pancreas from overworking on processed food, as much research on traditional diets have shown. In fact, eating enzyme rich foods is the same as popping digestive enzyme pills, it's just harder and not our modern way of eating.

I was just reading Dr. Tom Cowan's book again the other day and came across a suggestion for a pineapple fast (pineapple has huge amount of protein digesting enzymes) and thought that was interesting. Of course for us who are intolerant of large amounts of salicylates that would be a nightmare. But similarly there are other raw food diets that one can learn the background theory of enzymes and healing from: The Milk Cure or The Primal Diet.

There is some evidence of Food Chemical Intolerance (salicylates, amines) and eczema which I'm researching now.
http://www.cs.nsw.gov.au/rpa/allergy/

That could be the reason for the previous poster with a baby reacting to large amounts of veggies.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
joybird, or anyone else,
You posted something a while back about how once you figure out whether the problem is more yeast or bacteria, then it helps in knowing what to hit it with. Which things help which? And how do you figure that out?

See enzymestuff info on Bacteria/Yeast
http://www.enzymestuff.com/conditionbacteria.htm


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lydiah* 
Hello there. I have crohns disease and i have had 18 inches of my colon removed after an abcess perforated and almost killed me. That was 4 years ago. I havent had a flare for 3 years now and i want to maintain my remission. Here is what i take:

Enteric coated probiotics
Omega 3 fish oil (molecularly distilled)
Multivitamin with a B25 complex in it
Vitamin D 1000 IU
Digestive Enzyme pill with every meal
Calcium supplement

I do take the calcium later in the day so it doesnt interfere with the absorbtion of my other vitamins. I dont follow a specific diet but i do avoid processed food and i try my best to eat healthy.

Does this look good or does anyone have any suggestions?

Well it's working and that is certainly a good sign!

I would sub the fish oil and vit. D pill for high vitamin cod liver oil, either Radiant Life or Blue Ice. Vitamin A is essential for gut mucosal integrity.

Get your vitamin D blood level tested to see if 1000 IU is enough to keep you in the high normal range. In addition to breast cancer and other cancers, IBD and Crohn's have been highly correlated with vitamin D deficiency. This "vitamin" which really acts like a hormone in the body is actually a key component of our immune system. There is much evidence that we should be taking several thousand IU of D and most especially depending on latitude where we live. (These diseases go up the farther away from equator people live.)

www.mercola.com just had an article on best blood tests but I haven't read it yet.

Why are you taking calcium is it not in your diet sufficiently? There are other cofactors which are just as, if not more imp. than calcium to bones, teeth, etc... such as magnesium, A, D, and K2. We are obsessed with calcium and neglect these other crucial nutrients.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
You said it's bifidus dominance that causes the infant's gut to close. What does that mean? When does it close? I think I have read that around age 4-5 years a child's bacteria changes to more like that of an adult's. My 4 yo is still nursing, granted not much, but would that change things? I wonder if maybe I should still be giving him a probiotic that is designed for babies.

No I wouldn't give one designed for babes. While I think that Elaine Gottshall of the SCD was seriously myopic when it comes to bifidobacterium, once solid foods are given the bacterial balance of the small intestine does respond to lactobacillus.

It's not necessarily the particular organisum you give but the "environment" that it creates. Meaning, does the probiotic give off H2O2 and its own natural antibiotics which encourage the many other hundreds of strains of bacteria and yeasts to favor the "good" kind.

I also think that the internal environment is very heavily based on nutritional status: amount of minerals are mainly the platform for acid/alkaline body balance. It's more complex than just what gut flora are there.


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## chlobo (Jan 24, 2004)

Which of the yeast killer's are safe for breastfeeding? Is there ine that's better for kids than others?


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

For the vegetarian poster:

Sorry I cannot find it now to reply!

Like I just posted about minerals, there are key nutrients which are missing time and time again in people with gut problems. And animal products contain the most concentrated, easily absorbable forms of these nutrients. Yes pumpkin seeds are high in zinc, but a person with a damaged gut is going to have a very hard time breaking them down and actually utilizing it. There are also various complementary minerals and vitamins in animal foods which are not present in veggies such as the fat soluble vitamins. Not to mention the high phytate content of veg*n diets which impair mineral absorption.

I used to be vegetarian and sometimes vegan. Talking to myself then: I would say think about why you are vegetarian (for me it was all health and very little about animals rights but you might be different). Read the Vegetarian Tour at www.westonaprice.org.

There might be ways you can craft a diet that reaches your goal. Lots of grass fed dairy and pastured eggs for example. Consider fish and shellfish. Or humanely raised pastured meats. Fish broth is extremely healing. It's all about the nutrients if you are eating veg for health reasons. Obviously allergies and intolerances will have to be taken into account so that makes it that much harder the more restrictions you pile on.

Avoid soy, ask me if you do not know why.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chlobo* 
Which of the yeast killer's are safe for breastfeeding? Is there ine that's better for kids than others?

That's a good question, because I was just reading the stuff on the enzymes site, but I'm not sure which ones are the more gentler that would be appropriate for the younger ones.

One thing I am curious about is do you sometimes have to kill off some of the bad guys first, before you start probiotics? If you start probiotics first, is that worse? Or is it just that it may be ineffective until you add in something like enzymes or an antimicrobial?

Jane, do you think getting enzymes from food can be just as effective as taking enzyme pills? Or, do you think if you are trying to right some wrongs, then the pills work better first?

What are the best foods for that? Just anything fermented?


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
Was it this thread that discussed the "Primal Defence" which actually is a Homeostatic Soil Organism Probiotic Blend utilizing 12 species of beneficial microorganisms. http://www.gardenoflife.com/Products...8/Default.aspx

Basically dirt microbs.

Pat


I have been wondering about that product. I bought some a while ago, but it says not intended for children. What do you guys thinnk about this product? Don't you just wish everything was cut and dry, and there was one perfect probiotic and enzyme for everyone to take to perfectly re-establish their gut flora????


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

I just looked and there is a primal defense for kids:

http://www.gardenoflifeusa.com/Produ...0/Default.aspx

It has S. boulardii in it, which I find interesting.


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

*Checking in...
I had a few set backs (ate some sweets) and the last few days I have been really tired and kinda sad. Hopefully it will pass. And I have promised myself no more sweets.

As for my 28 month DD she is having really loose bowels. I have starting cutting back her magnesium. Which do you think is causing the loose bowels? Or could it be die-off? And how important is it to cut out all bread for her? It's her favorite and I use it to bribe her to eat her veggies. I'm cutting it down but I dunno if I can remove it completely.*


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeingMe* 
*Checking in...
I had a few set backs (ate some sweets) and the last few days I have been really tired and kinda sad. Hopefully it will pass. And I have promised myself no more sweets.

As for my 28 month DD she is having really loose bowels. I have starting cutting back her magnesium. Which do you think is causing the loose bowels? Or could it be die-off? And how important is it to cut out all bread for her? It's her favorite and I use it to bribe her to eat her veggies. I'm cutting it down but I dunno if I can remove it completely.*

It's hard to say. What do you think the loose bowels are from? When did they start?


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

I was not worried about this until today and I start looking stuff up about it. My 4 yr old, for whom we are trying to get his bowels back to normal after abx back in early Feb, started doing this thing where he would occassionally cross his eyes. Like he was doing it on purpose. It would only be if he was looking at something up close. Like, he would take a carrot from his plate to his nose, and let his eyes cross inward as the carrot approached his mouth.

Then, I don't know if it's because we gave it some attention (we didn't reprimand him, you know, we just said, oh don't do that honey), but he started to do it like he was making a silly face at us, like he would be exasperated with us and make this face and cross his eyes. But over the last week I have noticed this. Like tonight at the dinner table, he was trying to get my attention, and I was talking to my other child, and he says, "Mommy you are not listening to me!" And as he said it he kind of tilted his head upward, and did the eye cross thing. Suddenly it has made me worried that it is something more. I am posting this here just because my first thought was, oh no, could this be related to the intestinal stuff. Like, could this be because of the fact that he had abx and they did a number on his bowels and now we are still trying to get everything back to normal. Please reassure me.

ETA: The reason for my concern is becasue I wondered if it could be something neurological, and if that would be related to all this.


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
It's hard to say. What do you think the loose bowels are from? When did they start?

Her bowels have always alternated from constipated to loose but for the past few days they have been really loose. In this time we have started the AFP, increased magnesium, and given more vitamin C. I should've slowed it down, but we weren't having any issues with die-off so I have forgotten about being able to figure out what could be casuing something.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeingMe* 
Her bowels have always alternated from constipated to loose but for the past few days they have been really loose. In this time we have started the AFP, increased magnesium, and given more vitamin C. I should've slowed it down, but we weren't having any issues with die-off so I have forgotten about being able to figure out what could be casuing something.

I know my LO has always had a pretty low tolerance for the Vtamin C, even before his bowel troubles began. When he had perfect bowel movements, if he was sick and I gave him SA, it only took a couple of grams for a few days to get him to the point of having a loose stool. I don't know how much you are giving. Not sure what AFP is. Yes, I think it is best to change one thing at a time, but that's hard to do sometimes.

Is she getting probiotics?


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

BeingMe~

It could be the C or the Mag. Both can have a laxative effect absolutely. Maybe cut back and go a little slower?

Momofmine~

I would not go there just yet. Not over something like that. It sounds like normal kid behavior to me. If there is really something neurological going on I think you'd see more signs.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Thanks joybird. Sometimes I think this is so hard! I still have a lot of guilt over those abx and I think that was contributing to my worry. I just want it to all be better, you know?


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## mombh (May 6, 2003)

firstly thanks mamas for your replies









Iam going to look into the kefir grains . While I don't take a prenatal I do take a magnesium and I take a b12 with folate and biotin, also I drink acerola berry or amla for c and have been taking digestive enzymes too.

We have noticed that this baby doesn't hiccup like ds did in my last preg......so hoping that is a good sign.

Also, ds 5 who has all the food allergies and gut issues has been on digestive enzymes for about 6 months and his pooping habits have improved a lot








sorry tmi.......he would go once a week and cry and then slowly he started going every 4 days, every 3 etc; and they were looking more normal, softer, not a big deal for him anymore. then recently I was getting lax about remembering to give his enzymes with every meal and forgot to send to school (he just started kindergarten) so I just started giving him whenever I rememberd like between meals, after meals etc; and he has started going every other day and even everyday!!!







I'm wondering if that giving of enzymes between the meals was the extra boost of healing he needed???

btw, he is gluten intolerent and we had tried last year going dairy free for about 3 weeks with no change at all , after being told by so many people to take him off dairy, so we just let him go back to dairy, I don't think for him it is an issue.

I used to be vegetarian way back many years ago and I think for me it is what messed up my gut. I'm sure it is not like that for everyone but I know that for me, once I started eating meat and broth etc; things have gotten much better. Also I have noticed with my kids, that they also crave meat, and at meal times they will eat just the meat or maybe one other dish with it , but the younger ones will just eat the meat and be done, I find it interesting to observe what they eat when given a choice of many dishes.


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
I know my LO has always had a pretty low tolerance for the Vtamin C, even before his bowel troubles began. When he had perfect bowel movements, if he was sick and I gave him SA, it only took a couple of grams for a few days to get him to the point of having a loose stool. I don't know how much you are giving. Not sure what AFP is. Yes, I think it is best to change one thing at a time, but that's hard to do sometimes.

Is she getting probiotics?

She is getting some Natren(Bif. Only), but today I'm starting her on the VSL #3.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joybird* 
BeingMe~

It could be the C or the Mag. Both can have a laxative effect absolutely. Maybe cut back and go a little slower?

Today I will start cutting back the C and magnesium. Thanks!!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
Please reassure me.

ETA: The reason for my concern is becasue I wondered if it could be something neurological, and if that would be related to all this.

My best guess is that it is fun to cross your eyes and watch mama react. Does he seem to 'lose contact' with you, like a _postictal_ state? Zoned out after it happens, or it is brief and goes away as soon as he has your attention?

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
Thanks joybird. Sometimes I think this is so hard! I still have a lot of guilt over those abx and I think that was contributing to my worry. I just want it to all be better, you know?

Hey, we gave ds anx immediately after birth, to my dismay and regret. But, it is what is. No energy spent in the past, useless, imo.










Pat


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
I was not worried about this until today and I start looking stuff up about it. My 4 yr old, for whom we are trying to get his bowels back to normal after abx back in early Feb, started doing this thing where he would occassionally cross his eyes. Like he was doing it on purpose. It would only be if he was looking at something up close. Like, he would take a carrot from his plate to his nose, and let his eyes cross inward as the carrot approached his mouth.

Then, I don't know if it's because we gave it some attention (we didn't reprimand him, you know, we just said, oh don't do that honey), but he started to do it like he was making a silly face at us, like he would be exasperated with us and make this face and cross his eyes. But over the last week I have noticed this. Like tonight at the dinner table, he was trying to get my attention, and I was talking to my other child, and he says, "Mommy you are not listening to me!" And as he said it he kind of tilted his head upward, and did the eye cross thing. Suddenly it has made me worried that it is something more. I am posting this here just because my first thought was, oh no, could this be related to the intestinal stuff. Like, could this be because of the fact that he had abx and they did a number on his bowels and now we are still trying to get everything back to normal. Please reassure me.

ETA: The reason for my concern is becasue I wondered if it could be something neurological, and if that would be related to all this.

Honestly, my gut reaction is that isn't not a big deal. However, if you wanted you could take him for an eye exam. That kind of behavior is really quite common with gut issues for a variety of reasons and *can* be neurological. However it *sounds* like it's either play, or if it's a visual issue he's intuitively doing some things to self correct. What he's doing is actually an exercise (whether he needs it or not) to help integrate binocular vision. Kinda neat. IF he needs it, great! If not, he's experimenting. IF you are concerned take him for a routine check.


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## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
I just looked and there is a primal defense for kids:

http://www.gardenoflifeusa.com/Produ...0/Default.aspx

It has S. boulardii in it, which I find interesting.

i looked into that awhile back and wasn't sure if it would be a good idea to give to ds1. on the label it says: CONTAINS MILK, FISH (TUNA) MANUFACTURED ON EQUIPMENT THAT MAY PROCESS EGGS, SOYBEANS ds1 is soy intolerant.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Thanks for the replies. He definitely just does it for a few seconds. It doesn't last, and there are no other associated symptoms with it. He doesn't zone out afterwards or anything. He has no developmental or motor delays.

I have been watching him like a hawk all day and giving him my attention right when he asks me for it today, and he has not done it all day.

He did however, have a slight amount of blood in his stool again, just the bright red kind at the very end. So that negates my theory that maybe it was the FOS in the probiotics, because the one I gave him did not have FOS. Could it be that probiotics in general are irritating him right now and I need to be doing something else first?? The stool today was formed and dense at the beginning, but the second half of it came out formed, but then totally separated in the water.


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## SAmama (Oct 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
I am not sure what the modified Gaps diet is, but what else are you eating? Any grains? Because I think zuchini is usually very well-tolerated. Of course, it can be absolutely anything. And overdoing any food can cause a temporary allergy to that. My good friend whose daughters had very bad eczema when they were young, could not eat any one food more often than once every four days. Maybe with her eczema like it is, instead of trying to eliminate so much at once, you could try eating slightly more foods, enough to be able to rotate everything. It seems like with eczema that is more important. When my child had eczema reactions to food, it was always because of eating them too frequently, because I was eliminating so many things trying to figure out what was causing the intestinal symptoms. So it was a double whammy. But they were bigger allergens, eggs and beef.

We are avoiding grains and starchy veggies. There are also other things, like burdock root and chicory, kelp, fos, that you are supposed to avoid. We did in the beginning, but we have kelp thrown in with our sauerkraut and I have considered having burdock root again. It is supposed to really help with skin issues.

We have done a rotation diet before, but it is really hard now. We have two protein sources - chicken and goat. I decided to just add more veggies to our current diet and focus on getting the sups she needs into her. I got Nystatin capsules, which I think is better than the preparation. I wash the colouring off the outside and then give it to dd in a little bit of honey. This is making her flare just as bad as the preparation, so I really think it has something to do with yeast. We got some Sacharomyces Boulardii through a friend, so I just need to get those from her.

Jane, I have thought about food chemicals before. If I understand it right it has to do with the liver not being able to cope with the chemicals very well? I think she probably might have a problem with it, but I want to give this yeast thing a shot for a while and then see after a few months. If she is dealing with food chemicals, I wonder if it couldn't be because of yeast issues - messing with her gut and overwhelming her liver.

I do feel great on this diet. Much less cravings and not nearly as "sluggish".


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

I don't know what to do!

For my 4 yr old. I was giving him the Klaire Ther Biotic Complete, and had worked our way up to 3x/day. This has 25 billion, but it also has FOS. At the beginning it caused much tummy rumbling. Towards the end, I think it still was causing that, but he would say "my tummy hurts" instead. But it was very transient, he didn't seem in too much pain, and it would often be gone 10 to 20 minutes later.

But after a while at that dose, he started having just a tiny amount of blood on the tp when I wiped him. Doctor said probably anal fissure. And his poops were larger in diameter, I think because of the high probiotic. But then he started to get this rash on his bum that seemed like yeast, and saying his bottom was itchy. So I decided to stop the probiotics altogether.

(The reason I decided to stop altogether is I always wondered about the "my tummy hurts" stuff. Plus, while on that probiotic, my older son had improved poops at first, but then got a major reaction from gluten, he had mucus and blood and diarrhea for about 4 days. I do think it was him responding to the gluten, but he had gluten before, and never had that huge of a reaction. I think it meant his intestinal tract was just irritated or inflamed or something.)

After I stopped the probiotics completely (I'm back to my 4 yr old now), the rash on his bum got even worse, more itchy, etc. I really thought it was yeast because it did not respond to calendula ointment. I put yogurt straight on it, and it cleared up. I also started giving him another probiotic, also from Klaire, also with FOS, but at a lower dose, just for a few days. Then I switched to giving him yogurt for a few days. Things were best when I did that. He had normal poops for two days. Then he started getting runny nose and congestion, so I had to stop the yogurt.

Now, I found a little chewable probiotic which probably has other gunk in it like flavoring that I never would have given him before, but I just felt like he needed something while I figured out how to make some other probiotic foods or could order a different probiotic. I gave that to him once (Saturday). It only has 3 billion, no FOS. Then on Sunday, he has a bowel movment with blood on it again! Just the very tip of it had red blood, and there was a bit on the tp, and maybe like a tiny drop in the bowl.

I don't know what to do! The homeopathic MD thinks the blood is just an anal fissure and no worry. He also thinks that the only reason his poops are separating in the water is because he eats too much fruit. I do not agree. His poops were not like this before the abx. He said just give him the lower dose Klaire probiotic twice a day and give him more vegs and less fruit. That's it.

The other guy, the holistic pediatrician, I just don't know about him. He told me to give him that candida/yeast formula I have talked about here before. But the ingredients are quite strong, from what else I have read, things like uva ursi and pau d'arco. He said to give it for like 6 months, and everything I read says you have to rotate antifungals and you should never give uva ursi for more than 7 days. The other alternative that he told me was to give colloidal silver, regularly for a while, he said that would do the same thing.

I wanted to try making coconut yogurt, but I'm a little scared of that, after his reaction (blood in stool and very loose) to the coconut flour.

I just don't know what to do. The past two mornings in a row I am up at 4 or 5 AM feeling anxiety about this. I feel like I need the help of an HCP, but I don't know where to go now. There is a really nice alternative chiropractor here. I don't know if she could help with this stuff or not. I don't know if she knows all about enzymes and other antifungal stuff.

I feel like maybe I should try to get a stool test, but Jane, didn't you say they can be inaccurate? Is there one that works? Should I just go to my conventional family doc and get a stool test? I am sure that's what they would do if I called and said he had blood in his stool. Or should I call the homeopathic MD back and tell him I think we need something more than your original recommendation.

I want to put him strictly on SCD, because that is what helped my older son so much. But, we aren't doing nuts or dairy, and it would be really hard without those. I may try to get some nuts that are processed in a peanut free place and try it, I just don't know what to do!

Help? Thanks for reading my long rant this morning.

SAmama,
Yes, I feel much better when I eat that way, same thing here.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Coming back again, because I am starting to feel worried about the blood. The homeopathic MD was like, it's absolutely nothing to worry about, just an anal fissure, but he did not examine him. But my fear is that if I take him to the regular family doc, we'll just get more conventional medicine.

Should I be worried about the blood?


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

momofmine, honestly, I don't worry about as much as you are.









Ds occasionally has a speck of blood on the toilet tissue after a bowel movement. Sometimes I do. Or a streak on the last bit of stool on the paper. I don't believe it is healthy, optimal, ideal. But, what is?

I don't believe there is a "perfect" gut, whatever that would be. I feel certain, that the cherry tomatoes that I ate directly off the vine yesterday probably had "good and bad" bacteria. Our microbial balance is different every day, every meal, every moment. Mostly, I think "imbalance" is a cumulative thing. So, maybe there were more "bad bacteria", but I drank some extra probiotics yesterday too. And we are on constitutional homeopathy and I eat fairly nutritiously and and and...but who knows?

Mostly, what I hear is a sense of feeling out of control about his bowel movements. Generally, I find that when I am waking up worried that something be different than it is, *I* am feeling imbalanced in my life. Not the bowels, _me_. I'm not saying 'ignore the blood', it seems that he may be reacting to something in his diet, the many intolerances are cumulative too, I understand that. But, a day or few of trying something, even if you get a bit of frank blood, is reparable. The antibiotics months and months ago, ARE still impacting his gut; but most Americans get multiple antibiotics (unfortunately, plus those in food) several times a year. Is it horrible, yes. Is is seriously dangerous, maybe. Are many folks just fine, sure. But, focusing all of the energy on a speck of blood, is very stressful for all involved. And stress aggravates the immune system too. See, our stress about things being different than what is, causes more negative impact, IMO, than a "wrong" food, "wrong" probiotic, "wrong" antibiotic.

It is possible that part of the gut healing IS the inflamatory process...specks of blood and all. Generally, wounds are MORE inflamed, irritated, red, raised and draining as *healing*. My suggestion is a bit of rescue remedy all around; and seriously, I find that helps our health, as much as identifying the specific gut irritants.

I really am awed at your desire and effort to help your son. Your awareness and commitment are profound. In the scheme of things, OUR stress doesn't improve anyone's health, ime.

Pat


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Thank you Pat. Wow, it's good to know someone else wouldn't worry about the blood then. I wasn't particularly worried the first time, but when it happened again, I just thought, what is going on here? You are definitely right that I am anxious over this, mostly because this whole experience threw me for a huge loop, and because I am stuck in this regret about the abx months ago. I know consciously that I can't do a thing about it and I have to move forward. He is healthy, strong, very bright, and has an amazing soccer kick for a 4 yr old, so I need to focus on that today. I'm sure I'll be back later today.
Thanks.


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SAmama* 
I got Nystatin capsules, which I think is better than the preparation. I wash the colouring off the outside and then give it to dd in a little bit of honey. This is making her flare just as bad as the preparation, so I really think it has something to do with yeast. We got some Sacharomyces Boulardii through a friend, so I just need to get those from her.

Make sure you aren't taking the S. Boulardii during the round of Nystatin. Boulardii is a type of yeast so it will just get killed by the Nystatin, as well as occupying the Nystatin with more yeast to deal with, thus probably rendering the treatment less effective. After she's done with the Nystatin (or between rounds) you can do the Boulardii along with regular probiotics to help get the gut repopulated with friendly bacteria. But do have her keep taking her regular probiotics during the Nystatin, absolutely.


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## mombh (May 6, 2003)

my ds 5 used to have some blood on the tp after he pooped when he was not going frequently and they were big and hard and it even hurt him.
I asked the regular ped and he said that is sounds like fissure and that usually bright red blood on the tp or tip of the poop (not inside and with mucous etc) is usually fissure. anyhow, once things got more regular and especially softer and not so big there was no blood. so Itend to agree with ped.
I have also had a fissure after 2 of my babies birth so I wasn't so worried about it co's that's what it seemed.
If he has mucous and blood with mucous or black in color etc; that can indicate internal bleeding......but even then like a pp has said if his intestines are inflame and injured then you kow where it is from.
You can ask your ped, they are not going to suggest meds or anything, from what my kids ped told me it is unfortunately quite common today in kids....they don't think it is a big deal.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

seeing blood means to be that the integrity of the tissue is compromised to some extent and I would be looking at mineral levels, specifically zinc.

The good news is that the inflammatory process is the body WORKING. What you are seeing is the body trying to regain balance. My personal take on it (and yes, I have been there!) is to be in gratitude for the body doing what it needs to do to get back to health. IF they are eating something problematic, or the body isn't properly nourished this is the body giving signs and doing exactly what it needs to protect itself. I'm not saying do nothing, but I wouldn't freak out too much. It may sound odd, but trusting the body and being open to what needs to happen can go a long way.

And yes, it is common because of processed diets and improper nutrient levels. Mainstream docs wouldn't do much of anythings, but many natural practitioners would. They specialize in treating before subclinical deficiencies turn into pathological conditions.


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## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)

momofmine - if you think yeast is part of your ds's problem, have you cut back on fruit as recommended by the hcp for the blood on the bm's? i know yeast is a big part of my problem and fruit will make my candida flare up. and the coconut, iirc you made cookies with the coconut flour right? i think pretty much all sweeteners are bad for candida. i know they all make me flare, stevia the least which is supposedly alright for people w/ candida but i am not so sure about that. anyways, maybe that was why your ds had blood on his bm's? i would give the coconut yogurt a go.


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## gilamama (Aug 9, 2005)

my dd1 5yo swallowed a pill today!!!!

this is so exciting!!!

now i can spend less time mixing enzymes with honey or carob spread or almond milk! now i only have to do it for my 2 1/2 yr old. which means tricking her.







: oh well.









i gave her a pill of tri-enza to swallow. usually she has abt 1/8 a tsp of zymeprimeand 1/8 tsp of no fenol with most meals. would the additional protease cause an imidiate reaction? her only symptom is occational urinary difficulties which have disappeared lately but all afternoon she had to keep going back to the bathroom very often and only a bit of pee pee would come out. could it have been the protease?


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery* 
seeing blood means to be that the integrity of the tissue is compromised to some extent and I would be looking at mineral levels, specifically zinc.

The good news is that the inflammatory process is the body WORKING. What you are seeing is the body trying to regain balance. My personal take on it (and yes, I have been there!) is to be in gratitude for the body doing what it needs to do to get back to health. IF they are eating something problematic, or the body isn't properly nourished this is the body giving signs and doing exactly what it needs to protect itself. I'm not saying do nothing, but I wouldn't freak out too much. It may sound odd, but trusting the body and being open to what needs to happen can go a long way.

And yes, it is common because of processed diets and improper nutrient levels. Mainstream docs wouldn't do much of anythings, but many natural practitioners would. They specialize in treating before subclinical deficiencies turn into pathological conditions.

Okay, so I won't freak out about the blood. Actually, today he had a very normal looking poop at 12:30 mid-day. It was formed, stayed together, though it came out in three pieces and the last two floated for a bit, then slowly sank. And no blood. Does that sound normal? See, it's still not what his bowel movements looed like before, so that's why I am questioning it.

Then, tonight in the bathtub (just plain water), he suddeny had to go very bad. The first part came out formed, second part was actually diarrhea. Like, totally separated, floating everywhere in the water, and with the diarrhea smell. But no blood. And his bottom has a red rash again, which I think is yeast. This is what he had about a week ago, though it had completely healed up, to the point of no trace of it. Now it's back, though not as bad. It's red and bumpy and he says it stings when he poops. He can't stand for me to wash it off. It's not as bad this time as it was last week.

So, I am willing to be open to what his body needs, but how do I figure that out? I am at the point now where I am not sure how to proceed.


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## gilamama (Aug 9, 2005)

could this be a reaction to something he is eating? fruit?


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
momofmine, honestly, I don't worry about as much as you are.









Ds occasionally has a speck of blood on the toilet tissue after a bowel movement. Sometimes I do. Or a streak on the last bit of stool on the paper. I don't believe it is healthy, optimal, ideal. But, what is?

I don't believe there is a "perfect" gut, whatever that would be. I feel certain, that the cherry tomatoes that I ate directly off the vine yesterday probably had "good and bad" bacteria. Our microbial balance is different every day, every meal, every moment. Mostly, I think "imbalance" is a cumulative thing. So, maybe there were more "bad bacteria", but I drank some extra probiotics yesterday too. And we are on constitutional homeopathy and I eat fairly nutritiously and and and...but who knows?

Mostly, what I hear is a sense of feeling out of control about his bowel movements. Generally, I find that when I am waking up worried that something be different than it is, *I* am feeling imbalanced in my life. Not the bowels, _me_. I'm not saying 'ignore the blood', it seems that he may be reacting to something in his diet, the many intolerances are cumulative too, I understand that. But, a day or few of trying something, even if you get a bit of frank blood, is reparable. The antibiotics months and months ago, ARE still impacting his gut; but most Americans get multiple antibiotics (unfortunately, plus those in food) several times a year. Is it horrible, yes. Is is seriously dangerous, maybe. Are many folks just fine, sure. But, focusing all of the energy on a speck of blood, is very stressful for all involved. And stress aggravates the immune system too. See, our stress about things being different than what is, causes more negative impact, IMO, than a "wrong" food, "wrong" probiotic, "wrong" antibiotic.

It is possible that part of the gut healing IS the inflamatory process...specks of blood and all. Generally, wounds are MORE inflamed, irritated, red, raised and draining as *healing*. My suggestion is a bit of rescue remedy all around; and seriously, I find that helps our health, as much as identifying the specific gut irritants.

I really am awed at your desire and effort to help your son. Your awareness and commitment are profound. In the scheme of things, OUR stress doesn't improve anyone's health, ime.

Pat

Excellent point about stress aggravating the immune system and how focusing on how things should be (instead of reality) can induce stress.


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## GoddessKristie (Oct 31, 2006)

Momofmine- I just wanted to let you know that when my DS eats coconut his BMs are CRAZY. I cant' remember the age of your LO, but mine is 21 mos. The last (and only) time he had coconut his poops were straight coconut for nearly a week. He ate about 4 macroons over a two day period and I thought the coconut would never stop comming out. It was like it multiplied in his gut! I am not surprised your LO had wierd poops too. There's something very odd about coconut in kids' guts, I think.


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## gilamama (Aug 9, 2005)

coconut inhibits yeast reproduction.


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## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gilamama* 
coconut inhibits yeast reproduction.

yes but i know personally my candida flares from eating coconut with anything sweet...as in macaroons. i love jennie's macaroons, they're only sweetened w/ honey but they make me have the worst gas if i eat more than one or two of them. i don't have problems with coconut if i'm not eating it sweetened.


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## GoddessKristie (Oct 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
Yes you can take and then stop. Your body in no way becomes dependent on them. Whether your intestinal inflammation retreats and your own intestinal villi are repaired, your gut flora balanced, and your stomach acid strengthened, is the test of healing.

Ideally, one can learn to craft a diet filled with enzyme rich food: raw animal foods and fermented grains/fruit/veggies/beverages to save your own enzymes for body repair and your pancreas from overworking on processed food, as much research on traditional diets have shown. In fact, eating enzyme rich foods is the same as popping digestive enzyme pills, it's just harder and not our modern way of eating.

I was just reading Dr. Tom Cowan's book again the other day and came across a suggestion for a pineapple fast (pineapple has huge amount of protein digesting enzymes) and thought that was interesting. Of course for us who are intolerant of large amounts of salicylates that would be a nightmare. But similarly there are other raw food diets that one can learn the background theory of enzymes and healing from: The Milk Cure or The Primal Diet.

There is some evidence of Food Chemical Intolerance (salicylates, amines) and eczema which I'm researching now.
http://www.cs.nsw.gov.au/rpa/allergy/

That could be the reason for the previous poster with a baby reacting to large amounts of veggies.

I am glad to hear this! I'm looking for as much assistance as I can to help get our bellies back in order. Will I find the same enzymes in the juices as I would in the whole fruit? Our grocery store carries the fruit so I can get it, but the juice is so much more convenient (and somehow cheaper). It would be easy to get a few ounces of juice into my family at each meal. I'll do more research into the other enzyme rich foods you suggested.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

I would personally highly discourage healing with fruit juices. I did the primal diet strictly and think that was the best thing for me, so I know it's really possible to heal with raw foods. However I would definitely suggest seeking out enzymes from veggies rather than fruit. I think too much sugar could cause just as much problems as too little enzymes.

What I do for my kids is juice an entire head of organic celery and an entire bunch of organic parsley and use that (about 3 cups of juice) as the base for their smoothies. I add some whole fruit, coconut oil and raw almond butter to it. That way they are getting their greens, enzymes, amino acids etc. in a form that is tasty and provides fat so metals don't get mobilized too quickly (a problem in many kids with gut issues.)

All raw foods will have enzymes so yes, eating raw fruit will deliver them but only enough, I suspect to deal with the fruit itself. If you want to do any killing of bacteria/pathogens I do think you need to supplement. JMHO.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gilamama* 
coconut inhibits yeast reproduction.

This is why I was wondering about us both reacting to the coconut. (We both had some blood in stool and looser stool. I wondered if it could mean that he actually has some yeast issues, and so it was like die-off? The weired thing is that he ate coconut fine before. In the past, he has had Jennie's macaroons, or shredded coconut in things like chicken salad. The odd thing is that everything I read says that coconut actually helps with diarrhea. So the only thing I can think of is that, if his gut is inflamed, the fiber in the coconut is irritating it.

So, then how do I figure out what is causing it to be inflamed?


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery* 
If you want to do any killing of bacteria/pathogens I do think you need to supplement. JMHO.

Do you mean supplement with enzymes? Or supplement with other things that kill off the bacteria/pathogens?

Thanks everyone.


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## GoddessKristie (Oct 31, 2006)

I'm not sure he has anything to kill off, we're doing probiotics. I just want something else to ease the pressure on his digestive system while we get it healed. This is all brand new to me. Should I just find a supplimental pill?


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
Do you mean supplement with enzymes? Or supplement with other things that kill off the bacteria/pathogens?

Thanks everyone.

yes, I meant with enzymes. Sorry


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoddessKristie* 
I'm not sure he has anything to kill off, we're doing probiotics. I just want something else to ease the pressure on his digestive system while we get it healed. This is all brand new to me. Should I just find a supplimental pill?

The enzymes will help with inflammation and healing of the gut. You can check out www.enzymestuff.com for more info.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Hi friends,
I am feeling so stuck and need some advice. I really and truly believe that there is something I need to be doing for my son to help him, and that I just need to figure it out. When I went to the homeopath, he said, his stools do not sound problematic, and that he is just getting too much fructose in his diet, and that I should switch the balance to more vegs and less fruit. I really do not think this is it. I have tried just cutting back fruits, and it did not change things. Besides, why would this have been the case only AFTER the abx? Why would he have had normal poops before and poops that come out formed but separate in the water after?

The other day I decided to completely stop the probiotics, because I thought that maybe the probiotics were just not helping, and maybe pelting his body with them was not what he needed. So I stopped them. Since, then, he started having more gas (he usually does not pass gas much, but for the last two days he has been passing quite a bit, no pain, just passing gas.) He had a couple of normal poops, but they seem to be getting looser the past two days.

And the really strange thing is the eye thing. I posted about this a while back. But now it is more clear. At first, it seemed he was possibly doing it on purpose, but now it does not seem that way. It has been much more noticeable, but when he focuses on something really close up, his eyes turn inward, but one eye turns inward a lot more than the other. Looking at things far away, there is no problem. The strange things is that this has seemed more noticeable after I stopped the higher dose probiotics.

But the reason I stopped them is because he had begun to have a bit of blood on the tp every time he pooped and he was starting to have anal itching. I had worked my way up to that high does very slowly. I tried giving him even just one dose of it after stopping it and he had diarrhea.

I don't know what to do. For my first child, the SCD is what ultimately helped him. I have resisted going that way with him because of not doing nuts. However, I feel like maybe he needs that.

What would you try as your first next step? Enzymes? A different probiotic? What about something with S. boulardii? Or Threelac?

The eye thing has me worried now, because I have noticed it increase since reducing the probiotics, so it makes me think maybe we were staving something off.


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## gilamama (Aug 9, 2005)

for those who have successfully reintroduced foods into their own or their kid's diets: how did you know when to do it?

I'd really like to try to reintroduce chocolate (cocoa powder in something i bake) to my dd1 as that would expand our desert options sooooooooooooooooooooooooo much. she is much less sensitive to sugars than she once was (she can have raisins bananas a weekly lolly with cane sugar in it, gasp! ) but other wise we havenot tried any foods that ever caused digestive disturbances (wheat, dairy except butter, corn, soy, chocolate). Chocolate isnt a protein like the others (right?) so it seems less likely to still be a problem (to me).

we'd do it this coming week b/c she has all week off from school.


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## SAmama (Oct 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gilamama* 
for those who have successfully reintroduced foods into their own or their kid's diets: how did you know when to do it?

I'd really like to try to reintroduce chocolate (cocoa powder in something i bake) to my dd1 as that would expand our desert options sooooooooooooooooooooooooo much. she is much less sensitive to sugars than she once was (she can have raisins bananas a weekly lolly with cane sugar in it, gasp! ) but other wise we havenot tried any foods that ever caused digestive disturbances (wheat, dairy except butter, corn, soy, chocolate). Chocolate isnt a protein like the others (right?) so it seems less likely to still be a problem (to me).

we'd do it this coming week b/c she has all week off from school.

I don't have an answer for when to introduce new foods, but if you try chocolate and it doesn't work, consider carob. It is a legume though, so keep that in mind if you have problems with beans. I love carob.


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## mombh (May 6, 2003)

The only answer I can give is this;

If your dd has severe or life threaghtning reactions to a certain food I would be very hesitant to re-introduce it.

On the other hand if the reactions are not so severe, go ahead and try.

We did some things by accident, like bananas, ds still won't touch one, but when they are baked in muffins he loves it and he has no reactions, we forgot once and gave him muffins with bananas and then when we realized we saw he was fine.......that doesn't mean he wouldn't react ot a fresh banana though.
The same with egg, I had made a fruit/milk smoothie for my older kids with raw egg yoke in and one of his sibs shared with him........no hives. wow







I realized that if he didin't react to raw egg yoke he probably wouldn't ot cooked egg yoke and so it was ....and then one day I just made him and egg with the eggwhite too and he was fine......
but that is just our personal experience.
dd 7 would react ot pineapple and I havn't re-tried him on that one, although I have been thinking about it for a while since he has been on "no phenol" enzymes for a quite a while now. I will let you know how it goes.


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

*Question...
Getting ready to start the candex. I take a thyroid pill(T3) in the morning that has to be given 30 min away from food, some Isocort, and the Virastop. Where should I put the candex?
Thanks!!!*


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## LauraLoo (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
And the really strange thing is the eye thing. I posted about this a while back. But now it is more clear. At first, it seemed he was possibly doing it on purpose, but now it does not seem that way. It has been much more noticeable, but when he focuses on something really close up, his eyes turn inward, but one eye turns inward a lot more than the other. Looking at things far away, there is no problem. The strange things is that this has seemed more noticeable after I stopped the higher dose probiotics.

But the reason I stopped them is because he had begun to have a bit of blood on the tp every time he pooped and he was starting to have anal itching. I had worked my way up to that high does very slowly. I tried giving him even just one dose of it after stopping it and he had diarrhea.

I don't know what to do. For my first child, the SCD is what ultimately helped him. I have resisted going that way with him because of not doing nuts. However, I feel like maybe he needs that.

What would you try as your first next step? Enzymes? A different probiotic? What about something with S. boulardii? Or Threelac?

The eye thing has me worried now, because I have noticed it increase since reducing the probiotics, so it makes me think maybe we were staving something off.

I don't have a definitive answer for you, but I do think that you should read this. I found it very, very interesting.

http://mindd.org/serendipity/uploads...le-McBride.pdf


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeingMe* 
*Question...
Getting ready to start the candex. I take a thyroid pill(T3) in the morning that has to be given 30 min away from food, some Isocort, and the Virastop. Where should I put the candex?
Thanks!!!*


If the T3 is time released capsule then do not give Candex with it as the cellulase interferes with the coating, otherwise it seems it would be fine with the rest of your supps.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
Jane, do you think getting enzymes from food can be just as effective as taking enzyme pills? Or, do you think if you are trying to right some wrongs, then the pills work better first?

What are the best foods for that? Just anything fermented?

Yes certainly. But enzyme caps can be easier to do and more well rounded/specialized.

Anything raw has enzymes: such as raw fruit and animal products. Fermenting increases enzymes such as soaking grains and nuts, culturing veggies and dairy and making lacto fermented beverages.

The key is which enzymes are present too. Papain and pineapple are the only fruits I'm aware of that have high proteases. Animals foods such as raw milk, meat, fish, have protease and lipase. I think avocado has lipase too. The WAPF folks rec fermented beet kvass (which is excellent for your liver) and lacto fermented ginger ale for their enzymes, take 1-2 oz with every meal. (Recipes in _Nourishing Traditions_).


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoddessKristie* 
I am glad to hear this! I'm looking for as much assistance as I can to help get our bellies back in order. Will I find the same enzymes in the juices as I would in the whole fruit? Our grocery store carries the fruit so I can get it, but the juice is so much more convenient (and somehow cheaper). It would be easy to get a few ounces of juice into my family at each meal. I'll do more research into the other enzyme rich foods you suggested.

Only if you juice yourself. Juices that have been packaged are pastuerized and have no enzymes at all. I have heard excellent stories IRL on juicing and allergies. Natasha Campbell McBride talks about in her GAPS book with some recipes.


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS* 
If the T3 is time released capsule then do not give Candex with it as the cellulase interferes with the coating, otherwise it seems it would be fine with the rest of your supps.

Oops. It is time released. I bet the virastop isn't a good thing to take at the same time then.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
Hi friends,
I am feeling so stuck and need some advice. I really and truly believe that there is something I need to be doing for my son to help him, and that I just need to figure it out. When I went to the homeopath, he said, his stools do not sound problematic, and that he is just getting too much fructose in his diet, and that I should switch the balance to more vegs and less fruit. I really do not think this is it. I have tried just cutting back fruits, and it did not change things. Besides, why would this have been the case only AFTER the abx? Why would he have had normal poops before and poops that come out formed but separate in the water after?

The other day I decided to completely stop the probiotics, because I thought that maybe the probiotics were just not helping, and maybe pelting his body with them was not what he needed. So I stopped them. Since, then, he started having more gas (he usually does not pass gas much, but for the last two days he has been passing quite a bit, no pain, just passing gas.) He had a couple of normal poops, but they seem to be getting looser the past two days.

And the really strange thing is the eye thing. I posted about this a while back. But now it is more clear. At first, it seemed he was possibly doing it on purpose, but now it does not seem that way. It has been much more noticeable, but when he focuses on something really close up, his eyes turn inward, but one eye turns inward a lot more than the other. Looking at things far away, there is no problem. The strange things is that this has seemed more noticeable after I stopped the higher dose probiotics.

But the reason I stopped them is because he had begun to have a bit of blood on the tp every time he pooped and he was starting to have anal itching. I had worked my way up to that high does very slowly. I tried giving him even just one dose of it after stopping it and he had diarrhea.

I don't know what to do. For my first child, the SCD is what ultimately helped him. I have resisted going that way with him because of not doing nuts. However, I feel like maybe he needs that.

What would you try as your first next step? Enzymes? A different probiotic? What about something with S. boulardii? Or Threelac?

The eye thing has me worried now, because I have noticed it increase since reducing the probiotics, so it makes me think maybe we were staving something off.

Based on my many experiences with "odd" behaviors in my DS when his gut was bad, this is a symptoms of something going on. Whether it is something serious or not my experience would say no, but it is an indication of what is going on.

If I were in your shoes, with the benefit of living through this with my DS I would first start with his diet. Certain high fructose fruits do indeed do this to my DS. Even now when his stool is perfect and consistent all the time now, one apple (even sadly Golden Delicious which are supposed to be low in phenols, boo hoo!) and he will get loose stool and slight (only a mother would realize) behavioral issues. Or peaches or pineapple. But he can eat an entire quart of strawberries over one day and this will not happen to his stool. Learning what my DS can tolerate perfectly has been a long journey but at least we found the benefit of it now.

The reason your son cannot tolerate some things after the antibx is that they disrupt digestion and gut flora.

I would then add enzymes with meals and then between meals with a slow step by step approach. I would definately try to find a probiotic which helps. I cannot tell you which one is best for your situation, only that we have been helped by Natren, Culturelle and Pharmax and homemade kefir and yogurt and other ferments.

Vitamin C is essential for ameliorating detox symptoms, several times/day.

For visual issues, cod liver oil is indeed key. I would be giving at least 10,000 IU of A and 1,000 IU of D per day and bumping that up for a short time if he has not been consistently getting at least 5,000 IU of A for the last year, or had multiple fevers.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeingMe* 
Oops. It is time released. I bet the virastop isn't a good thing to take at the same time then.

No time released meds have a cellulose coating, proteases shouldnt have an effect.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Momofmine,

Has the only probiotic you tried have FOS? Have you tried an FOS free one?

There are so many positive studies on FOS... but whether it shifts things too fast or whether you have predominently yeast or bacteria as your major bad guys... some people just really cannot tolerate it.

I wish I knew exactly what the criteria is so we could have some general guidelines but I would take your experience as a sign he needs an FOS free one.


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## gilamama (Aug 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gilamama* 
for those who have successfully reintroduced foods into their own or their kid's diets: how did you know when to do it?

I'd really like to try to reintroduce chocolate (cocoa powder in something i bake) to my dd1 as that would expand our desert options sooooooooooooooooooooooooo much. she is much less sensitive to sugars than she once was (she can have raisins bananas a weekly lolly with cane sugar in it, gasp! ) but other wise we havenot tried any foods that ever caused digestive disturbances (wheat, dairy except butter, corn, soy, chocolate). Chocolate isnt a protein like the others (right?) so it seems less likely to still be a problem (to me).

we'd do it this coming week b/c she has all week off from school.

dd1 had mystery diarhea today. i really have no clue wlhat it could have been caused by at all. she has been so stable for so long.







i tend to over analyze things. but maybe this is not an allergy thing? doesnt this "just happen" sometimes?


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## SAmama (Oct 13, 2006)

I have had dd on Nystatin for a week now (with enzymes and a lot of probiotis). I think I remember somewhere needing to rotate anti-fungals. Does that go for Nystatin as well?


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SAmama* 
I have had dd on Nystatin for a week now (with enzymes and a lot of probiotis). I think I remember somewhere needing to rotate anti-fungals. Does that go for Nystatin as well?

Yes. Our doc had dd on 1 tab nystatin 3x/day for 10 days, then 2 tabs 3x/day for 10 days. Then onto another anti-fungal for 10 days, switching them every 10 days. I have used OoO, GSE, and he also recommended goldenseal and propolis. When ready to stop the anti-fungals, start taking S. Boulardii instead.

ETA: You can also do ten additional days on a double dose of whichever anti-fungal you're using, like with the Nystatin. How's your dd?


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

*Another couple questions:

1. Starting candex with my 28 month old. According to their site it says to give 1/2 a capsule for 40pds. My daughter is 27 pounds, does this mean 1/4 of a capsule? How am I going to measure 1/4 of a capsule







: ? However, according to the website that sells them my ND wanted me to order from they say: Children: 1 to 2 capsules one-time daily one hour before meals or two hours after meals. Capsules can be swallowed or opened up and mixed into a small amount of liquid. What do you think?
2. When is the best time to give the VSL#3, and what to give it with?
2. Also, what do you think of Taurine for liver support?
3. Anyone here heard of Pyluria?*


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## chambom (Dec 11, 2007)

How do you heal a babies gut? My DD is 6.5 months old and I want to try to cleanse us both.

I know I can give her probiotics directly, but what about the other things that are recommended...

enzymes- should I just take them?

cod liver oil?

fermented foods?

We are struggling with her ability to eat any solids without getting really bad gas.


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## SAmama (Oct 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joybird* 
Yes. Our doc had dd on 1 tab nystatin 3x/day for 10 days, then 2 tabs 3x/day for 10 days. Then onto another anti-fungal for 10 days, switching them every 10 days. I have used OoO, GSE, and he also recommended goldenseal and propolis. When ready to stop the anti-fungals, start taking S. Boulardii instead.

EAT: You can also do ten additional days on a double dose of whichever anti-fungal you're using, like with the Nystatin. How's your dd?

Thank you! We are working towards 2 tabs of Nystatin 3x/day and will do that for a while before I switch to something else. GSE would be nice, but dd has now decided to chew the tablets I give her and apparently the GSE is horrible. I might do OoO after the Nystatin - just rub it on her feet.
Dd is doing better than last week when she flared up. She also isn't fussy anymore and sleeps a bit better. Her skin looks good, but we are still far from it being completely clear. Her legs seem to be very itchy, even though it looks so much better. I am confused about that.
Oh, and her poops seem to be either very nice and formed or a bit mushy. Sometimes it smells like cow dung! Anyone know why that would be? (she eats a lot of meat and fat, so it cannot be diet alone, I don't think)


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

I haven't been on this thread for a while, but I just got back from an appointment with my new ND and wanted to see what you guys thought about this treatment plan.

I had a stool & saliva test done, and here are my results:

chymotrypsin (marker enzyme for pancreatic output) - 5, low (normal is >9)
ameba histolytica - equivocal
alpha anti-chymotrypsin - 105, high (normal is <60)
free cortisol rhythm (only checked once, first thing in the am) - 12, low
Here's the plan (I added links so that you can see the ingredients for each supplement):

Gastric Complex for enzymes + gut support
The ND says that she treats an equivocal ameba test as positive, but that the usual course of treatment isn't necessarily safe while BFing. She said she's done an essential oils treatment that has about a 50/50 success rate. So she gave me a mix of: savory, thyme, cinnamon, clove, bay laurel, rosemary, tea tree, and lemon. I'm supposed to do 8 drops (mixed with some honey or a sugar cube or something), twice a day. DD tested positive on her ELISA to both cinnamon and lemon, so I'm a little nervous about using this.
no treatment for this- hopefully the irritation will resolve by treating the other issues.
Adren-Plus for adrenal support
What do you smart mamas think?

And what about parasites? Has anyone else dealt with them (as opposed to yeast) as the root cause of your gut issues? If so, did you have to treat your LO too (if you were BFing)? I'm curious if we should be running these same tests for DD too.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Where did all my gut-healing mamas go??

I have already decided that I'm not going to do the EO treatment, since 1) we don't know for sure that I have parasites or not, 2) the treatment might not even work if I did have parasites, and 3) DD will most likely react to at least 2 of the ingredients.

I put a call in to the company to see if the veggie caps have corn in them (even though the bottle says contains no corn, etc.) and I'm still waiting to hear back.... I also just noticed that the Adren-Plus has a warning to check with your HCP if pregnant, nursing, etc. I'm curious why??

I would love to get some input on all this.... I hope to start trialing one of the supplements over the weekend- probably the Gastric Complex. (I can only trial one at a time since DD reacts to almost everything.)


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Hi changingseasons,
Sorry you haven't gotten any replies yet. I don't know if I can offer much advice, but tell you what I think I would do.

About the EO and the parasites. Is there some other test you can do to check for parasites, like a stool test? I would probably call the HCP back and ask if an EO would be different from ingesting the actual substance. If your LO doesn't have an anaphylactic allergy to it, I might try it. I mean, I think those tests can sometimes give false positives and negatives. I don't know how accurate they are.

I think the best you can do is just jump in and try something. It sounds like, from others' experience, that small reactions did sometimes give way to greater healing. Of course you don't want to give anything that she would be dangerously allergic to, but I do think that it sounds like you need something to jumpstart your gut healing. Can you just pick one your ND recommended that you feel most comfortable with and try that? Don't change anything else. Also, have you considered seeing someone who does constitutional homeopathy as their only thing, and getting a constitutional remedy for both of you? The constitutional remedy my first ds had when he was young really helped with his eczema reactions to things.

Good luck! I am sure others will have good advice for you too.

ETA: Sorry, I just saw that it WAS a stool test you did already. I just saw the part about the saliva. Does your ND think it is a clear indicator that you have parasites? It seems like they would be able to at least guess what chance it is that it's parasites. It seems like we probably all have parasites in one form or another at different times, that may just be the nature of the universe, and it may not necessarily be bad. I think you have to just find what you think is going to most helpful for your health and that of your LO, to support your vital force and get back to balance. I need to take my own advice, so I understand this is really hard.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Yeah, it was a stool test.

And I probably should have mentioned- I am actually supposed to ingest the EO's for this treatment (yuck). Which makes it a much higher possibility that DD will react, because they will be in my BM.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Could you ask her to just mix you a new batch of it without the cinnamon and lemon? Seems like it might still help, even it might not be as effective. but with that many different things in it anyway.

I don't know, a 50/50 success rate sounds kind of hit or miss. But, if you could get it without the things she is allergic to, and it wouldn't hurt, then it might be worth trying.

Maybe try one of the other ones first? Are you taking any supps now? CLO or other enzymes besides what you listed in that post?


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Nope, the only thing I'm taking right now is Vitamin C. The next thing I'm going to trial are the enzyme complex she gave me, and then the adrenal one. But I'm still waiting for a call back from that company to see if there is corn in the veggie caps.

ETA: I'm also wanting to (eventually) trial a HVCLO, but DD has reacted to every type of fish and fish oil I've tried (haven't tried straight CLO though) so I'm not very hopeful...


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Well, that's good then, it sounds like you have a plan. Good luck! I will be hoping that they go smoothly!


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Speaking of trying supplements, I just tried something new today. Something that a doctor recommended I give to my child, but I thought I'd try it first, because I really thought it seemed strong. I mentioned it earlier on this thread, it is called Candida Yeast Formula, by Kids Wellness. I only took the child's dose today, 3 times, as directed, and it is giving me pains like I need to have a bowel movement, but I already did. And some slight stomach cramps. It has quite a few strong herbs in it, like pau d'arco, and uva ursi, and others. You are supposed to take high dose probiotics along with it. But that just seems kind of backward. Take something to kill everything off, then take something to put everything back in. That still just seems like the conventional medicine paradigm. I am thinking that instead we need something that will simply help our bodies get back in control, to have the good guys flourishing in there, but living along with the potential bad guys, just kept in check. I don't think I will keep taking this.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chambom* 
How do you heal a babies gut? My DD is 6.5 months old and I want to try to cleanse us both.

I know I can give her probiotics directly, but what about the other things that are recommended...

enzymes- should I just take them?

cod liver oil?

fermented foods?

We are struggling with her ability to eat any solids without getting really bad gas.


Enzymes, yes you can take them first if you are bf'ing to help prevent food proteins from going into your bloodstream/milk. I have never used then on DS when he was a baby but the author of _Digestive Wellness For Children_ recs them. What kind of solids is she reacting to? Have you seen the thread in Allergies forum : Introducting Solids to An Allergenic Baby.

I would take the CLO yourself at least a tablespoon or more of Radiant Life which is the high vitamin one with no flavor if you are thinking there are food sensitivies going on (can put in juice).

What probiotics are you using?


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeingMe* 
*Another couple questions:

1. Starting candex with my 28 month old. According to their site it says to give 1/2 a capsule for 40pds. My daughter is 27 pounds, does this mean 1/4 of a capsule? How am I going to measure 1/4 of a capsule







: ? However, according to the website that sells them my ND wanted me to order from they say: Children: 1 to 2 capsules one-time daily one hour before meals or two hours after meals. Capsules can be swallowed or opened up and mixed into a small amount of liquid. What do you think?
2. When is the best time to give the VSL#3, and what to give it with?
3. Also, what do you think of Taurine for liver support?
4. Anyone here heard of Pyluria?*

1. I would do a half capsule.
2. What does their instructions say, with or between meals?
3. Dunno but milk thistle is excellent
4. Yes, it's spelled *Pyroluria* and it's mentioned briefly in Julia Ross's most excellent book _The Mood Cure_ and lots more info online. Anything the Pfieffer Center says is great source of info. Chief supplements to deal with are B6 (although all B's should be taken as well I think, brewers yeast and liver are great sources) and zinc.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gilamama* 
dd1 had mystery diarhea today. i really have no clue wlhat it could have been caused by at all. she has been so stable for so long.







i tend to over analyze things. but maybe this is not an allergy thing? doesnt this "just happen" sometimes?

In our experience if it's not a food reaction it's too many sugars (fruit can be a cause, esp high fructose fruits) or a virus.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SAmama* 
Oh, and her poops seem to be either very nice and formed or a bit mushy. Sometimes it smells like cow dung! Anyone know why that would be? (she eats a lot of meat and fat, so it cannot be diet alone, I don't think)

Incomplete digestion of any food can cause smelly stools, including proteins and fats. Super bad smell is usually bacteria related as I understand it.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Not sure what to tell you CS since we've never gone that route! But whenever I am stuck I remember that whatever choice I make will at the very least reveal more information to me one way or the other. I will say that momofmine's suggestion for homeopathics sounds interesting to me. I feel we never really gave that a chance due to inability to find good practitioner and DH being against it. I do have regrets about that.


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

Thanks Jane for your reply. I started to pst my question again but looked back and saw your reply. Thank you.
On the VSL it doesn't really give directions. I was wondering if it's generally better to take them with food or in-between meals?


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

I have often wondered that about probiotics. I have read both, empty stomach and with meals, so maybe it depends on the brand. I would call teh company of the specific one you are taking and ask. This says that you should take probiotics on a full stomach, because an enpty stomach is acidic, and so on a full stomach they have a better chance of surviving the gastric acids.

http://drbenkim.com/blog/2005/11/whe...robiotics.html

That makes sense to me. Especially because I have also read that whne you eat probiotics foods, you have a better chance of the probs colonizing your gut, so maybe that is in part because the food reduces the acid. Just speculating there.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

I started S boulardii for my 4 yo today. How long would you give it for? Should I still be giving another probiotic at the same time? I read somewhere that S boulardii does not mix well with other probiotics besides plain acidophilus (who knows if this is true, I read so many random things in a day).

Thanks!


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

I want to order some HVCLO today. I have been just giving regular CLO. What should I order? I saw that Green Pasture has several options. They have regular HVCLO, fermented HVCLO, and RAW fermented HVCLO.

Any opinions? Thanks!


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
I started S boulardii for my 4 yo today. How long would you give it for? Should I still be giving another probiotic at the same time? I read somewhere that S boulardii does not mix well with other probiotics besides plain acidophilus (who knows if this is true, I read so many random things in a day).

Thanks!

I would give it a month to start with but I would imagine you'll see improvement long before that. Dose on an empty stomach if you can. Yes, you should still be using your other probiotics. Boulardii is actually a yeast and it does not colonize the GI tract. It helps discourage bad bacteria while it's in there, though. So you want to be giving strong probiotics to take the place of the bad bacteria that are (hopefully) being pushed out.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Thanks joybird! Which probiotics would you give? I had been giving Klaire Ther Biotic Complete, but I think I need to switch to something without FOS. I was thinking about the Pharmax that Jane has in her sig, or Natren, or Kirkman's. Any opinions on that?

The Pharmax says that it is "human" strain. I wonder if that's actually a good idea?


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

I think the Klaire and Kirkman are great. Right now I'm using Kirkman Pro-Bio Gold for myself and for dd. I'd go with either of those over the Natren. I don't know anything about Pharmax so of course now I'll have to look into that as well!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
I started S boulardii for my 4 yo today. How long would you give it for? Should I still be giving another probiotic at the same time? I read somewhere that S boulardii does not mix well with other probiotics besides plain acidophilus (who knows if this is true, I read so many random things in a day).

Thanks!

Personally, I would not give/take single strain S boulardii, especially with a leaky gut, due to the risks of fungemia.

S Boulardii is present in commercial kombucha, in significant quantities, *along side* Lactobaccillus, in significant quantities. That is a more bio-available source, imo, as it is active live cultures in a whole food.

I happened upon the information among clinical studies of _Saccharomyses boulardii_ and Fungemia. (you can google that a bit, check medline, NIH, etc.) Basically, there has been some indication and correlation of a inflamed and leaky gut in immuocompromised patients having probiotics administered, and the gut allowing the bacteria to invade the system systemically, and causes sepsis. (route of administration is not defined. There is some suspicion that the entry through a g-tube or j-tube could be more cause for concern.)

Additionally, there is some question about the concurrent use of a central venous catheter, as the possible route of contamination/entry. From my reading, my understanding is that single strain probiotics could overwhelm a compromised gut by providing an imbalanced quantity of one type of probiotic. Kinda like "everything in moderation/balance" in the gut is the healthy gut, but an immuno-compromised gut is already out of balance, so that single strains could become 'too much', and invade the system through a leaky, inflamed gut wall. This is a descriptive article about it. http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi...26?cookieSet=1

The concern for immunocompromised folks is that studies regarding heavy administration of single strain probiotics are inadequate. But, the healthy gut has _hundreds_ of microbs in a symbiotic balance. Once that balance is destroyed with chemo, radiation, antibiotics, introducing a single strain probiotic could over expose a person to a "benign" pathogen. The risk of this occurring with other single strain probiotics seems possible. As much as I'm a probiotic proponent, I trust whole food supplementation with naturally occurring *balanced* microbials, instead.
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/83/6/1256/T2
http://grande.nal.usda.gov/ibids/ind...&therow=791627

HTH, Pat


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Like I said, S. Boulardii is a yeast, not a bacterium. Kombucha is a great way to give it to the body if you can.

For anyone who is severely immunocompromised and is already very sick from that, i.e has AIDS or another serious immune disorder, S. Boulardii might be best avoided. For the vast majority of people, it has been shown to be completely safe.

If you want to avoid any possible chance of anything bad ever happening, even if the chances are no greater than winning the lottery, you might as well stop eating and drinking altogether, because the likelihood of contracting a severe illness from food poisoning is far more likely than being overtaken by fungi from S. Boulardii. That is, unless you are already quite sick by a different and very severe illness.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

I did read on the Florastor website about the fungemia, but the only time it had ever occurred was in patients with central venous catheters. Maybe I will look that up some more.

I really believe in the idea that getting the probiotics from food is the best way to actually re-colonize the gut. I just wonder if it is enough after we have artificially wiped out the gut flora by giving antibiotics, especially because in our case I waited to give them, and so he probably needed them even less at that point, so it wiped out the intestinal bacteria even more. I do not want to buy commercial kombucha. Can I make this myself and still get the S boulardii?

I also agree about the not taking single strains, because it can cause imbalance. I know people have disagreed with Elaine Gottschall's stance on bifidus with the SCD, but I think that was her main concern. not that bifidus was boad necessarily, but that it would have the potential to overgrow and crowd out some other good bacteria too, in addition to crowding out bad bacteria. And that we do need the whole slew of strains that are specific to our particular bodies.

So, what's left then? What is there to do? I have got to start giving him probiotics again because they were helping, but I think the FOS was too much. The homemade raw milk yogurt is not enough. His poops are still falling apart in the water.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

I just looked up making kombucha, and you use sugar. Is there a way to make it without sugar?


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Yes, your own Kombucha will have all the good stuff in there. And it will have absorbed the healing power of love from you while making it!









Have you tried kefir? It has a better ability to colonize than yogurt does, and it has far more strains of bacteria. It's also a bit easier to make than yogurt. I presume you are doing 24-hr yogurt if you are on the SCD? Honestly, I think that any homemade ferments are going to be more effective than probiotic capsules, no matter what kind. If you can start some Kombucha that would be a great addition to the yogurt. And what about cultured vegetables? Would he eat those? Sometimes I hide sauerkraut in my dd's food. She won't eat it plain yet but I figure if I slowly give her the taste for it that will change eventually.

I think you are right though, sometimes the balance is so skewed that it takes supplements to bridge the gap. Nature did not intend for us to be exposed to abx the way we are.


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
I just looked up making kombucha, and you use sugar. Is there a way to make it without sugar?

No, but the sugar is there as food for the bacteria and yeast. Most of it is consumed by the colony by the time you drink it, in the same way that lactose is consumed during the fermentation process for yogurt/kefir. There will be a residual amount left but it is quite small and I believe that the benefits of Kombucha outweigh the minor sugar involved. GT Dave's says it has 4g of sugar per 16 oz bottle. A kid would probably only drink 1/4 of that per day (or less), so that's really not very much sugar. But no, Kombucha is not technically SCD- legal.


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## tolovemercy (Apr 9, 2007)

OK...new to this tribe. I'm considering ordering some pure nystatin for myself for dealing with yeast issues. Has anyone else done this, and what can I expect? How much should I order? How much should I take, and how often? And is this OK for BFing?









We've been battling thrush on and off since I went through two rounds of abx in the spring. I've made tons of dietary changes (went on a crazy-strict anti-candida diet for two months, which actually didn't help...i felt a little bit like my body was so depleted that it couldn't heal) So I'm experimenting a bit....that's a story for another day, though.

I haven't had really any other yeast issues aside from the nipple thrush w/bfing, except today I feel like a uti may be coming on. are these related? or just coincidence?


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Yes, I think UTI can defintiely be related to yeast.

Have a question about TESTING:
What are your thoughts on it? Did anybody do tests to help them figure out the right course of action? If so, which ones?

The homepathic doctor we see wants to do a blood draw for celiac and food allergies. I am hesitant, if the finger prick test can also test food allergies, why do the blood draw? Besides, with a leaky gut, those things might be changing all the time, so in my mind the best route is trial and error. Take out gluten, see if it helps, you know?

We did take out gluten, and it didn't really make a difference. It did start to change a bit when we took out all the grains though. I just went through all this with my first son when he had intestinal issues years ago, we did all the blood draws, stool tests for days and days, etc, drug him around to gastros, etc, and they could never tell me anything! It was me who figured out all the dietary stuff that helped him. Nothing ever turned up from all the testing. So I guess that is why I am reluctant. The thing that makes me feel nervous, however, is that my young one has had some blood in his stool (intermittent), and now this eye thing too, and I just feel like he has inflammation going on somewhere.

What would you all do about testing?

Thanks


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## mbravebird (May 9, 2005)

OK, ladies, I think I need some help. I've read the cheat sheet and about 1/3 of this thread, at different points of the thread. But if you could just take a gander at my story and share your thoughts, I'd be grateful. I'm newly pregnant, so all of a sudden this stuff is taking on new meaning for me, and I really want to figure out what's happening and heal.

I've never really had obvious gut symptoms (although now that I'm having some I am remembering that ds had a little bit of eczema when he was a few months old. It went away maybe around six months old? Can't quite remember.) But aside from that, as an adult I've never had yeast symptoms, allergy symptoms, etc. My mother says I had some eczema when I was little, but it went away. My mother definitely has a leaky gut, though, with psoriasis, etc. When I was little she just had eczema.

OK, fast forward to a few months ago, when all of a sudden I had an extremely, extremely painful bout of intestinal pain, which turned out to be an intestinal blockage from what looked like parasites to me. (When I treated for Parasites with herbs and Food-Grade Diatomaceous Earth, I passed a large lump that had several pinworms and a massive lump hardened stool). Long story short, I've had leaky gut symptoms ever since I passed that mass/lump. All my other parasitic-type symptoms went away immediately (anal itching and abdominal pain), and my bowel movements have been normal since then. My stools are a 3 or a 4 on that scale Jane S posted. But it seems to me like, when that hard stool, which was parasite-colonized, came out, maybe it created a particularly leaky spot in my gut? Damaged the gut in that place? Because the day after I passed the "mass", I suddenly got a spot of eczema on my eyelid. I've never, ever had that in my adult life. I have been experimenting, and it seems like it comes when I eat unsoaked grains or white flour. (My diet is mostly TF, but I stray sometimes.)

So I upped my bone broth, adding extra gelatin to it, and upped the coconut oil. I already take probiotics and drink raw kefir. Then I'd test some unsoaked grains, to see if I was still reacting on the eyelid, and I would react some but not as much as I was before. So I was thinking, OK, I can heal this.

But in the midst of all this my anal itching has returned. Not as much as it used to be, but some. And I just got some raw cow's milk (we used to have just goat milk), and after a day of that all of a sudden I have a spot of eczema behind my ear! I'm freaking out a bit, because I'm newly pregnant, and I'm realizing that I really need this to be getting better, not worse. I don't want to foist issues on my babe if I can at all avoid it.

So, do you think this is all parasites? Do I still have them if the itching is back? Is the itching not parasites but yeast? Do I have hope of healing this over the next 8 months, enough so that my babe will be spared? Any advice would be appreciated. This is what I'm doing now:

--Daily bone broth with added gelatin
--Daily raw kefir (both goat and cow milks)
--Probiotic (primal defense brand)
--I was doing 2 TBS coconut oil, but it is currently making me gag due to morning sickness. If you all think that's really important, I can get it down anyway.
--HVCLO (fermented)
--my diet is mostly TF.

I'm not taking enzymes, and could use some guidance about that. And do I need a different, more effective probiotic supplement?

Even when I'm not feeling itchy, I can still see irritation in the folds of my anal area (sorry if that's tmi). I'm wondering if that's indicative of what the entire GI tract is looking like?

Sigh. Any advice would be so appreciated. Thanks for reading.


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## Eben'sMama (Jun 29, 2006)

subbing...


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## tolovemercy (Apr 9, 2007)

Ok...i'm sure it's been discussed here before, but i need a quick answer.

DS2 has yeast issues--he's on nystatin, candidaise (w/virastop), and probiotics.

I'm wondering when/in what order to give all of these to be most effective. Please help! TIA.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

I guess no one's hanging out here anymore...









But in case someone stops by, can you guys check out this thread and tell me what you think? I'm positive that I'm allergic to some component of digestive enzymes, which is annoying since they are supposed to HELP with food allergies.


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## xekomaya (Apr 18, 2007)

I'm still here, but totally bummed out on the gut/allergy front and have come close to giving up. For 3 weeks now I've been trying to convince myself to start over - perhaps even go back on a TED, but I'm just not getting there.

I do feel about a million times better though when I take my enzymes, and my chemical sensitivity might be decreasing a bit (or I'm just better at avoiding, idk)

I'm sorry the enzymes have been so crummy for you, CS, I'll go post in your thread


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *xekomaya* 
I'm still here, but totally bummed out on the gut/allergy front and have come close to giving up. For 3 weeks now I've been trying to convince myself to start over - perhaps even go back on a TED, but I'm just not getting there.

I'm sorry... that sucks. I've started over more times than I can count, so I know how bummed out you are.


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## Koalamom (Dec 27, 2007)

I must first say the I haven't even begun to read the 22 pages here, but I need some advice/ help. My daughter was just diagnosed with leaky gut. She is 19 months old. Since she was a timy babe, she has had rashes all over her body that come and go. They never bother her, but they look like yeast rashes. From my understanding, all the probiotics I was giving her were making the rashes worse. Is this right? Where do I begin to heal her leaky gut?


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bluebirdmama1* 
I must first say the I haven't even begun to read the 22 pages here, but I need some advice/ help. My daughter was just diagnosed with leaky gut. She is 19 months old. Since she was a timy babe, she has had rashes all over her body that come and go. They never bother her, but they look like yeast rashes. From my understanding, all the probiotics I was giving her were making the rashes worse. Is this right? Where do I begin to heal her leaky gut?

I really hope we have some discussion about this. I think that the same thing happened to us. I was giving my 4 yo high dose probiotics over the summer, and I think that they actually made it worse, over time. Firefaery said one time something like, just pelting the body with a bunch of probiotics is not always the answer, and can be counterproductive. So I really want to figure out more if I am doing the things now to get to the root of the problem, which I know is that he initially had a bacterial imbalance from a course of abx.


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## mombh (May 6, 2003)

I would also enjoy a discussion about this









there is so much info out there and a lot of it is conflicting, overwhelming etc;

I would think that including probiotic foods such as real yogurt, kefir, kombucha, fermented/lactic acid veggies etc; would be a gentle natural way to re-colonize the gut and at the same time probably staying away from foods that irritate the gut lining, known allergens, or if someone has yeast, foods that would encourage yeast growth etc;

I would love to hear more about mamas giving probiotics that have helped their lo. Like which ones actually help re-colonize etc; how they work together with digestive enzymes, which ones etc;
I just recently started adding "bio k" ( it's like soy/dairy ferment/ yogurt) to my kids smoothie everyday. been doing this for about 2 weeks now, I havn't seen any bad reactions. My kids usually have this for breakfast, with blueberries, strawberries, milk egg yokes etc; I was adding one bio k for a smoothie for 3 kids.... I don't think it's to much.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bluebirdmama1* 
I must first say the I haven't even begun to read the 22 pages here, but I need some advice/ help. My daughter was just diagnosed with leaky gut. She is 19 months old. Since she was a timy babe, she has had rashes all over her body that come and go. They never bother her, but they look like yeast rashes. From my understanding, all the probiotics I was giving her were making the rashes worse. Is this right? Where do I begin to heal her leaky gut?

Was it a dairy-based probiotic? That would be my first thought, since most are dairy-based, and dairy is the most common food allergy in babes. Have you done an elimination diet to see which foods bother her? Check out my blog (link in sig) for more info.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
Was it a dairy-based probiotic? That would be my first thought, since most are dairy-based, and dairy is the most common food allergy in babes. Have you done an elimination diet to see which foods bother her? Check out my blog (link in sig) for more info.

I think that also FOS and inulin seem to be troublesome for some. They are for us, though for others it seems to help. We could not tolerate it though, it gave both my guys gas and tummy pain.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mombh* 
I would think that including probiotic foods such as real yogurt, kefir, kombucha, fermented/lactic acid veggies etc; would be a gentle natural way to re-colonize the gut and at the same time probably staying away from foods that irritate the gut lining, known allergens, or if someone has yeast, foods that would encourage yeast growth etc;


I think this is true to some extent, but if you are dealing with a bacterial imbalance or yeast that was caused by some external force upsetting the balance (like we had a round of strong abx that did it) then you need more. I just think that when we start altering the environent in those ways, like sudden extreme jolt of abx, it might take more for some of us to get back to homeostasis.


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## Kontessa (Nov 5, 2005)

After some research I think I am going to start the following program, though not ordering from her links as they are super costly. I want to fast and cleanes then start a candida diet. If you know anything about can you look at the link and tell me if it is missing anything? A local friend said I will need enzymes, but when would I add those? She thinks I should work on killing the yeast and replacing it with probiotics for a month and then do the enzymes. But it was my understanding I could be working to kill this infection in my body for many months. She also thinks she can take some pills and not change her diet at all and drop ten pounds and be done with the problem....

I am confused!

Anyway, this is my plan so far is it ok?

http://www.chirokelly.com/detox/candida.html


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## Koalamom (Dec 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
Was it a dairy-based probiotic? That would be my first thought, since most are dairy-based, and dairy is the most common food allergy in babes. Have you done an elimination diet to see which foods bother her? Check out my blog (link in sig) for more info.

As for probiotics, I was giving her raw 12-24 hour yogurt, and fermented veggies. But her rashes get worse and better on and off not always at the same time as her eating the probiotics. I was shocked that a baby would get leaky gut. We eat really good, following a pretty traditional food diet. I introduced foods around 7 months, and I was very careful about what it was when I did. But she had the rashes before then. Then I had her allergy tested, and she tested fine to dairy as long as it was raw, and wheat as long as it was soured (not sprouted funny thing). But we only eat raw dairy made into yogurt or kefir, or sourdough breads. So that couldn't be the culprit. The only other major allergy was cabbage. I ate tons of homemade sauerkraut while I was pregnant, and that was one of her first foods. I thought that it was really healthy, and I let her eat as much as she wanted (and she ate alot!)
I think that gave her the leaky gut, and I gave her the yeast. She has yeast issues, and because of her leaky gut, the probiotics never manage to get to her intestines where the yeast lies. I put her on a Standard Process supplemnt that is supposed to heal her gut, and it seemed to do wonders and the rashes cleared up for about a week. Then they came back worse than ever. Then my mother (a homeopath) gave my DD a remedy that has been clearing up the rashes slowly. I just feel like I am missing something.

My DD has also been a slow teether, and I learned that all the calcuim she was intaking, wasn't getting to the right places because of her leaky gut. After starting on the homeopathic remedy, she got 8 teeth in 2 weeks, and more are emerging.

We don't eat any of her other allergy foods such as sugar, honey, and soy so she should be getting better. What more do I do?


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Bluebirdmama, check out this thread about allergies and yeast: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=941070

Kontessa, you might check the same thread, Calm has written some similar protocals regarding candida cleanses, and address kids and nursing.

mombh, xekomaya, tolovemercy, mbravebird, ladies we are all gathering on the other thread daily. It is nearly 500 posts long. But, informative and dynamic. There are a lot of folks working to heal the gut from the 'attack the yeast, first' pov.

I'm more of a add what heals you-gal. But, the ladies there are suffering and wanting to address the root of the gut concerns, along with healing. It is an interesting perspective to consider, if you have yeast, eczema, allergies, asthma...

Pat


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

*Checking in....
For myself I have started the Candex. Initially I had some weird headaches and stomach stuff, but that passed over a few days. Today was my first day of 2 pills in the morning and so far, so good. I wish I could say my diet was 100%, but I slacked a little. My gut must be getting better because when I slack I'm not reacting as much as before and I love that my ears don't itch(nipples too but that's probably TMI







)

For my DD she's doing much better. Since starting the enzymes she has started talking much more. And as long as I keep her blood sugar stable her moods are great(for the most part, she is 2.5 so there are still some times for frustration







). She's been on Candex for about a month, with no reactions. I'm wondering if 1/2 a capsule 2x a day is enough for her; she's 28 lbs. I haven't done any antifungals, hoping to avoid them. She still gets some bread and when she stayed with grandma last weekend she came back with a really bloated belly and juice in her sippy, so there is still a bunch of work to do in educating the family and helaing her gut. She's gotten used to oj with her supplements and she's reacting with a red ring around her anus and from her vulva down (sorry TMI). I just wish dh wouldn't buy it anymore so I wouldn't have to have the battle. I'm hoping its the citrus, she used to get them while she was bf whenever I had oj, but I won't know for sure till I stop the oj.

Question: How long should I keep her on the candex, and is 1/2 a capsule 2x a day enough? How long should I keep her on milk thistle? And is the bloated belly yeast, or could it be something else?*


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## JaneSmith1010 (Apr 22, 2007)

I need help. I'm feeling too bad to read alot of the thread right now. I have celiac disease and have been having major GI problems, and other stuff, despite not getting 'glutened'. I think I may have leaky gut or some other problem. I am breastfeeding and think I may need to wean to take care of my issues. Can someone tell me where to start?

Symptoms
my whole GI tract hurts (non specific pain)
constipation unless i take cal-mag
don't digest meat well
excessively GASSY no matter what
acne that will not clear up, even with topical medication or diet change
hot flashes at night
tired alot but can't sleep well at night. i wake up at about 3-4am no matter what time I go to bed
reactive hypoglycemia

I have been to a naturopath that, without my giving info, correctly indicated to me that my thyroid may be giving me trouble, I may be deficient in iodine, may have liver flukes or something similar, my left ovary is weak and my cycle is erratic and my left adrenal area hurts sometimes. He used a muscle test and tooth-organ chart to get all that. I am not sure if it matters, but I really need some help.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jhow32000* 
I need help. I'm feeling too bad to read alot of the thread right now. I have celiac disease and have been having major GI problems, and other stuff, despite not getting 'glutened'. I think I may have leaky gut or some other problem. I am breastfeeding and think I may need to wean to take care of my issues. Can someone tell me where to start?

Symptoms
my whole GI tract hurts (non specific pain)
constipation unless i take cal-mag
don't digest meat well
excessively GASSY no matter what
acne that will not clear up, even with topical medication or diet change
hot flashes at night
tired alot but can't sleep well at night. i wake up at about 3-4am no matter what time I go to bed
reactive hypoglycemia

I have been to a naturopath that, without my giving info, correctly indicated to me that my thyroid may be giving me trouble, I may be deficient in iodine, may have liver flukes or something similar, my left ovary is weak and my cycle is erratic and my left adrenal area hurts sometimes. He used a muscle test and tooth-organ chart to get all that. I am not sure if it matters, but I really need some help.

Have you cut out dairy as well as gluten? Many people with Celiac find they react to both.
That's about the extent of my usefulness, sorry.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

jhow32000,

I am sorry you are feeling so sick. What are you eating? Do you know about the Specific Carbohydrate Diet (SCD)? Many people with celiac who do not improve on just a gluten-free diet, have found that diet to be better for them. In fact, it was the original diet for celiac disease years and years ago before gluten had been isolated as the protein in wheat.

You can read enough about it online to start the intro diet without reading the whole book, if you are desperate for something right away, but I would recommend reading the book, Breaking the Vicious Cycle.

Also, you can do it without dairy, if you think that may be part of it. Though I know some people who could never tolerate dairy, but then they could tolerate the 24 hour yogurt after being on SCD for some time.

HTH


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mbravebird* 
OK, ladies, I think I need some help. I've read the cheat sheet and about 1/3 of this thread, at different points of the thread. But if you could just take a gander at my story and share your thoughts, I'd be grateful. I'm newly pregnant, so all of a sudden this stuff is taking on new meaning for me, and I really want to figure out what's happening and heal.

I've never really had obvious gut symptoms (although now that I'm having some I am remembering that ds had a little bit of eczema when he was a few months old. It went away maybe around six months old? Can't quite remember.) But aside from that, as an adult I've never had yeast symptoms, allergy symptoms, etc. My mother says I had some eczema when I was little, but it went away. My mother definitely has a leaky gut, though, with psoriasis, etc. When I was little she just had eczema.

OK, fast forward to a few months ago, when all of a sudden I had an extremely, extremely painful bout of intestinal pain, which turned out to be an intestinal blockage from what looked like parasites to me. (When I treated for Parasites with herbs and Food-Grade Diatomaceous Earth, I passed a large lump that had several pinworms and a massive lump hardened stool). Long story short, I've had leaky gut symptoms ever since I passed that mass/lump. All my other parasitic-type symptoms went away immediately (anal itching and abdominal pain), and my bowel movements have been normal since then. My stools are a 3 or a 4 on that scale Jane S posted. But it seems to me like, when that hard stool, which was parasite-colonized, came out, maybe it created a particularly leaky spot in my gut? Damaged the gut in that place? Because the day after I passed the "mass", I suddenly got a spot of eczema on my eyelid. I've never, ever had that in my adult life. I have been experimenting, and it seems like it comes when I eat unsoaked grains or white flour. (My diet is mostly TF, but I stray sometimes.)

So I upped my bone broth, adding extra gelatin to it, and upped the coconut oil. I already take probiotics and drink raw kefir. Then I'd test some unsoaked grains, to see if I was still reacting on the eyelid, and I would react some but not as much as I was before. So I was thinking, OK, I can heal this.

But in the midst of all this my anal itching has returned. Not as much as it used to be, but some. And I just got some raw cow's milk (we used to have just goat milk), and after a day of that all of a sudden I have a spot of eczema behind my ear! I'm freaking out a bit, because I'm newly pregnant, and I'm realizing that I really need this to be getting better, not worse. I don't want to foist issues on my babe if I can at all avoid it.

So, do you think this is all parasites? Do I still have them if the itching is back? Is the itching not parasites but yeast? Do I have hope of healing this over the next 8 months, enough so that my babe will be spared? Any advice would be appreciated. This is what I'm doing now:

--Daily bone broth with added gelatin
--Daily raw kefir (both goat and cow milks)
--Probiotic (primal defense brand)
--I was doing 2 TBS coconut oil, but it is currently making me gag due to morning sickness. If you all think that's really important, I can get it down anyway.
--HVCLO (fermented)
--my diet is mostly TF.

I'm not taking enzymes, and could use some guidance about that. And do I need a different, more effective probiotic supplement?

Even when I'm not feeling itchy, I can still see irritation in the folds of my anal area (sorry if that's tmi). I'm wondering if that's indicative of what the entire GI tract is looking like?

Sigh. Any advice would be so appreciated. Thanks for reading.

mbravebird,
Wow, that is interesting that you knew what to do with the blockage. How did you know what to do to make that pass? How did you know to treat for parasites?
I think being pregnant can make you more prone to yeast issues, so I would be extra careful with diet, since you may be kind of just teetering on that. Maybe eat only soaked/sprouted grains if you are going to eat grains, no sugar, etc. I would probably back off the cow's milk if you think that implicated in the appearance of one of your spots of eczema. You can always try it again a bit later.


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## Ifluffedthree (Dec 3, 2004)

I have never seen this thread before.

I have had a lot of issues with the gut and the overall feeling of not feeling well, some symptoms more extreme and others not as much.

I have found the root of my issues tends to fall back on my sporatic overactive hyperthyroidism.

When I slow down the insides a bit all the other impacted things behave much better.

I have only read a couple of the beginning posts so my replies are not really directed to any one person, just stepping up to say hey --- I am a card holding member to the Ostomy Society and understand stubborn guts.


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## JaneSmith1010 (Apr 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
jhow32000,

I am sorry you are feeling so sick. What are you eating? Do you know about the Specific Carbohydrate Diet (SCD)? Many people with celiac who do not improve on just a gluten-free diet, have found that diet to be better for them. In fact, it was the original diet for celiac disease years and years ago before gluten had been isolated as the protein in wheat.

You can read enough about it online to start the intro diet without reading the whole book, if you are desperate for something right away, but I would recommend reading the book, Breaking the Vicious Cycle.

Also, you can do it without dairy, if you think that may be part of it. Though I know some people who could never tolerate dairy, but then they could tolerate the 24 hour yogurt after being on SCD for some time.

HTH

Yes, in fact, I have been on the SCD multiple times. Some things don't seem to clear up for me. Like my skin/acne. Also, I am confused mainly because the things it tells you to eat on SCD are to be avoided in leaky gut. As I have read that if you have celiac you are likely to have leaky gut, I figured that may be a reason for my persistent acne. Also, I just started up the SCD again and was having terrible gassiness and overall GI pain my 2nd week in.
I do better without dairy and try to avoid it. When I am on it , it is raw cow's milk, usu 24 hr yogurt.

The leaky gut diet says to avoid:
sugar
gluten
alcohol (legal in SCD)
vinegar
a lot of fruit
dairy (legal in SCD)
ferments/ yogurt (legal in SCD)
caffine (legal in SCD)
dried fruit (legal in SCD)
canned fruit (legal in SCD)

leaky gut diet say to eat:
veggies
grains (illegal in SCD)
legumes
nuts
seeds
garlic
fruit/veg juice
essential fatty acids
water
meat
eggs
stevia (illegal in SCD)

Hence my confusion. I eat mostly fruits, veggies, cheese, yogurt, berries, nuts when I can get them raw, meat, eggs. Occaisionally I'll cheat and have gf chex or baked goods on special occaisions. I really don't even want to cheat I'm so miserable. If someone can tell me what diet to stick to I'd be much better off having some direction.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Well, there is definitely no one diet for everyone. You have to do whatever feels right for you. If a certain diet is not working, then you have to re-evaluate. However, I am not sure what you mean by a "leaky gut" diet. Grains are very hard to digest, gluten or no gluten, especially the way they are typically prepared in our country, without soaking or sprouting them, which makes grains somewhat more digestible. How long were you on SCD each time? It often is like two steps forward, one step back, with anything. We did the diet years ago when my first son was young, and although we saw overnight improvement initially, there were setbacks along the way. I wonder if there could have been other things you needed, in addition to scd, like enzymes, or certian probiotics, that could have helped more.

As far as what's legal on SCD, if you can't tolerate certain things, you would just leave them out. Things like a lot of canned fruit and dried fruit may not be tolerated by everyone, probably wouldn't be tolerated by most, especially not in the beginning. And with dairy, it is only certain types of cheese, and the 24-hour yogurt, but I know that some people don't tolerate it at all, so they just leave that out. Plus, I think you really have to stick to it, and occassionally having some chex cereal, even if it's gf, does not work.

I mean, really, all the things you listed as being legal on SCD, are all things that a lot of people cannot tolerate on that diet for a long time, if at all. And the two things you listed for leaky gut diet that are not on scd, grains and stevia, well, grains are just hard to digest for a lot of people.

I think you have to just think about what seems to make the most sense to you, thinking about how you feel when you eat a certain way, and maybe stick to one particular plan for at least a month or two. Then you can look back and say, Am I a little bit better, a lot better, or worse? Then you can make changes.

I feel like I am rambling, but hope some of that is helpful.


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## newcastlemama (Jun 7, 2005)

Hey all I am joing in.
I have been through a lot of health challenges that past few years but I am healing..I seriously need to heal my gut though. I have already done TF for 2 years

Here is my puzzle--
-I still have multiple food sensitivites (gluten, dairy, eggs, tomatoes mainly)
-I had really high IgA for glianden
-I made very minor improvments in ferritin levels even after tons of red meat and supplementing. My hemogloblin levels are good, but if I miss meat for 2 days I get anemic feeling and get very bruised.
-I have floating stools
-I have had an uncomfortable feeling in my lower right abdominal area for a few years. I had an ovarian cyct there which burst a few weeks ago that my obgyn found (there was just fluid on the ultrasound) but I still have this feeling there so maybe it is something else.
-My gallbladder (liver?) area has started to feel uncomfortable now the past few days!

Does anyone think I have celiac disease? When I searched some of the symptoms this came up. I guess whatever my issue I need to heal the gut so I am not sure if diagnising really matters.

Here is what I am doing
-Starting GAPS diet on Nov 28 (I have been transitioning into this)-lots of broth, ferments, liver.
-I am making sour water kefir for more probiotics.
-Digestive enzymes with and between meals (Do you think these are good? http://www.vitacost.com/NSI-Pancreat...estive-Enzymes or should I be taking something else...HELP!)
-Dandelion root tea, ginger tea between meals
-clo and extra D
-I take a B-complex, zinc, borage oil, c with bioflavonoids, K2. Magnesuim as needed.

Thanks! I will be posting a lot more to this thread in a week.
Jen


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## artparent (Jun 8, 2005)

this has probably already been posted, but i have to say that the best solution i have found so far is this program. another mama on mothering and irl passed it on to me and i've been on it for nearly a month with great progress so far. i have been trying to heal terrible eczema, digestive issues, food sensitivities, frequent uti's and yeast infections, some asthma, for years. i see an amazing naturopath in vancouver bc, dr.hal brown, who took care of all of this really well...but still the finer points weren't done with. one thing he did that healed so much was to end my years of vegetarianism, and take me off of grains and sugar completely. i still felt that i had candida issues and have tried different cleanses with little avail. still addicted to sugar!

i highly recommend bee's program. so far i've healed my tongue, which has had awful welts of candida for a long time, and now if my 3 year old wants to snuggle on top of me to sleep, my belly doesn't hurt anymore. it is very strict, but very clear, which i find helpful when wading through all of the information out there! there's a great yahoo group as well. so far so good.

i'll check back soon and let you know how things are going, but if you do have time to read bee's site, i think it could contribute a lot to the discussion here.

*


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## bluets (Mar 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newcastlemama* 
Hey all I am joing in.
I have been through a lot of health challenges that past few years but I am healing..I seriously need to heal my gut though. I have already done TF for 2 years

Here is my puzzle--
-I still have multiple food sensitivites (gluten, dairy, eggs, tomatoes mainly)
-I had really high IgA for glianden
-I made very minor improvments in ferritin levels even after tons of red meat and supplementing. My hemogloblin levels are good, but if I miss meat for 2 days I get anemic feeling and get very bruised.
-I have floating stools
-I have had an uncomfortable feeling in my lower right abdominal area for a few years. I had an ovarian cyct there which burst a few weeks ago that my obgyn found (there was just fluid on the ultrasound) but I still have this feeling there so maybe it is something else.
-My gallbladder (liver?) area has started to feel uncomfortable now the past few days!

Does anyone think I have celiac disease? When I searched some of the symptoms this came up. I guess whatever my issue I need to heal the gut so I am not sure if diagnising really matters.

Here is what I am doing
-Starting GAPS diet on Nov 28 (I have been transitioning into this)-lots of broth, ferments, liver.
-I am making sour water kefir for more probiotics.
-Digestive enzymes with and between meals (Do you think these are good? http://www.vitacost.com/NSI-Pancreat...estive-Enzymes or should I be taking something else...HELP!)
-Dandelion root tea, ginger tea between meals
-clo and extra D
-I take a B-complex, zinc, borage oil, c with bioflavonoids, K2. Magnesuim as needed.

Thanks! I will be posting a lot more to this thread in a week.
Jen

gluten intolerance and celiac disease can mess up the sphincter of Oddi which controls release of bile out of the gallbladder. symptoms are general pain in the right chest, but pressing on the liver/gallbladder pressure points can relieve those spasmy pains. a digestive enzyme for fats can relieve that feeling - use something for lipase and related enzymes. if you mix dandelion root with chicory root for tea, you can really relieve the liver congestion - though i'm not sure about problems you use this regularly. does anyone know?

how is your iodine intake? you might consider incorporating dulse or kelp into your diet somehow.

i'd actually suggest a homeopathic remedy before anything else particularly to address the abdominal pain.


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## newcastlemama (Jun 7, 2005)

Thanks bluets. I use sea salt already but I will incorporate more dulse/kelp(What made you suggest those? I am just curious.)

I am doing the dandelion root and will look into a chickory mix. You can do it for 4 weeks and then take a break for 2 weeks I think. It was safe for BFing on kellymom.

The digestive enzymes I am taking have lipase 12,000 units of activity. Mabe I need more lipase? My MIL had this pain too and she said it went away after being diligent with probiotics and enzymes, esecially the NOW super enzymes (maybe I will try those instead). She said she needs the Benatine HCI for the pain to stop...maybe me too?

artparent-I am not sure of you were suggesting Bee's candida deit to me








I have no yeast type issues even though was was on a lot of abx in the past. If the Gaps thing does not go well I may try a candida type approach but I don't want to make my life really hard unless I must







I feel like GAPS is a really good fit at this time...it just makes a lot of sense to me.


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## bluets (Mar 15, 2005)

newcastlemama - some of your skin conditions might indicate iodine insufficiency, at least homeopathically. go to http://www.abchomeopathy.com and enter in all your seemingly disconnected issues - it might give you new directions to check out.

a year or so ago, my dh had a bunch of conditions that indicated homeopathic treatment with secale (the gluten grain rye) - which got me thinking about gluten intolerance for him. this year (why does he never listen to me) he went through a heap of testing for gallbladder issues only to find out he had borderline gallbladder dysfunction. after wading through pubmed, i decided that he needed to shift to a GF life. had he listened to me a year ago we'd be a few thousand dollars richer (Well, maybe not coz we prolly woulda invested it in the mutual fund...).

as for the dandelion-chicory mix, check out mountain rose herbs herbal tea called "herbal coffee". or just do a decoction of 1:1 dandelion:chicory - there are nice recipes for these drinks in Garden of Eating.

oh, dh uses Enzymedica's Lypo Gold product with much success. i think the best price is at luckyvitamins.com


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

Wow, I was just curious about iodine insufficiency, so I just googled that and found this:

http://www.mbschachter.com/iodine.htm

Very interesting stuff!


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## mbravebird (May 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momofmine* 
Wow, I was just curious about iodine insufficiency, so I just googled that and found this:

http://www.mbschachter.com/iodine.htm

Very interesting stuff!

That's a great article! I had been wondering about that issue, too, and that article really summarized it well.

Just an update on me, in case it helps anyone else out there --

I have traced my symptoms back to an egg sensitivity. My main symptom, the anal itching, went away entirely when, due to my morning sickness, I stopped eating eggs. I would gag whenever I even thought about an egg. With them gone from my diet, the itching and inflammation went away. I had some eggs the other day just to test it, and the next day the itching and bleeding were back. So no eggs for me! The eczema only came that one day, and is gone now too.

The itching started about a year ago, so I must have developed the sensitivity around then, and my intestines being in that inflamed state for so long must have allowed the parasites to grab hold. I am much more confident, now that I know to eliminate eggs, that I can heal my gut with all of the things I've been doing. I think before that the broth, etc, was helping, but then I'd eat an egg and it would all just go to waste. I'm hopeful now that things will be OK. Thank you to my wise pregnant body that refused to let me eat them!

That's all for now.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

That's great mbravebird! It's always nice to figure out a piece of the puzzle.


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## newcastlemama (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mbravebird* 
That's a great article! I had been wondering about that issue, too, and that article really summarized it well.

Just an update on me, in case it helps anyone else out there --

I have traced my symptoms back to an egg sensitivity. My main symptom, the anal itching, went away entirely when, due to my morning sickness, I stopped eating eggs. I would gag whenever I even thought about an egg. With them gone from my diet, the itching and inflammation went away. I had some eggs the other day just to test it, and the next day the itching and bleeding were back. So no eggs for me! The eczema only came that one day, and is gone now too.

The itching started about a year ago, so I must have developed the sensitivity around then, and my intestines being in that inflamed state for so long must have allowed the parasites to grab hold. I am much more confident, now that I know to eliminate eggs, that I can heal my gut with all of the things I've been doing. I think before that the broth, etc, was helping, but then I'd eat an egg and it would all just go to waste. I'm hopeful now that things will be OK. Thank you to my wise pregnant body that refused to let me eat them!

That's all for now.

Thank you for sharing this!

My gallbladder pain started a week ago when I started using alot mayo and avocadoes (both allergens for me) again....I am hoping that is what triggered that pain and that it will stop soon. I am probably going to have to cut out butter as well to heal. I think I am one of those people too who won't be able to heal with allergens in my diet even though I take tons of broth/clo ect...oh well.

I am going to see my naturopath/homeopath today about my allergy/gallbladder issue. Thanks for even more info bluets..I really appreciate it!

Jen


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## Koalamom (Dec 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newcastlemama* 
Thank you for sharing this!

My gallbladder pain started a week ago when I started using alot mayo and avocadoes (both allergens for me) again....I am hoping that is what triggered that pain and that it will stop soon. I am probably going to have to cut out butter as well to heal. I think I am one of those people too who won't be able to heal with allergens in my diet even though I take tons of broth/clo ect...oh well.

I am going to see my naturopath/homeopath today about my allergy/gallbladder issue. Thanks for even more info bluets..I really appreciate it!

Jen

Ouch! I hope you get this taken care of. I have terrible gallbladder attacks and almost had it taken out until I found a naturopath that healed my gallbladder. Later I would get tenderness in that area, but it was always after I ate either store bought almond butter or honey (even raw). I recently took a homeopathic remedy that made my gallbladder ache so much, but then after a few days, it has never felt better. I think there is something to diet and homeopathy at the same time.


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## BeingMe (Oct 25, 2006)

Anyone still here???
I was wondering about this lady's program, anyone have any thoughts?
http://www.healingnaturallybybee.com/candida/index.php

She also has a page on what NOT to use...
http://www.healingnaturallybybee.com...es/menu6_2.php


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## artparent (Jun 8, 2005)

i posted her site earlier in the thread, i've been using her approach for over a month now with great success so far. it is slow healing, but i can really see change, i think i said earlier that i think my digestive system was completely inflamed, for years and years. what i find really different about this program is that she organises nutrition first, eventually anitfungals, at the end probiotics. nutrition is very strict, but far more effective than anything i've done. i usually end up eating a lot of nuts, and eliminating those has been great; also increasing good fats like butter and coconut oil gives me so much energy, although it took some time for my body to get used to it. i've had a patchy tongue for years and it cleared up really quickly. there's a yahoo discussion group. i've tried many different ways to get rid of candida, but this makes the most sense to me. i had a lot of sensitivities - new ones, even, after 4 years with an nd, and i see now that they were healing reactions, and i just need to slowly introduce the foods...good foods like egg and garlic, for example. if you like i can keep you posted on how i do. i still have swollen legs, and a couple of touches of eczema, and if i 'cheat' i can feel a surge of candida having a party







- my nd healed most of the eczema, i had it head to toes, with adjustments and supplements, taking me off grains and sugar and cow's milk, and ditching vegetarianism. he has told me in the past to just eat meat and vegetables, but i find her directions much more complete, i think the virgin coconut oil has been critical. i also really love dry-brushing my skin daily, and taking epsom baths, i feel much better though it is winter.

the site is disorganised, it is worth searching for any questions you have as there's so much in there that isn't in the menu at this point. i think bee is incredibly busy supporting a lot of people to heal.

i'd like to be able to eat what i like, to a degree, i think i may need to do this program for a year yet, we'll see. i re-experienced wrist pain i haven't had in 12 years - bee talks about healing reactions chronologically revisiting old illnesses - so i have great hopes that i'm healing back that far.







i know another mama who has her whole family on this - so far my partner is joining me, easing into it slowly. he has more sensitivities than i do, so i'm interested to see how he feels in the next while. too bad the holidays are smack in the middle of this!

*


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## tournesol (Jul 22, 2013)

Is this the last HTG thread?


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## tournesol (Jul 22, 2013)

Well in case anyone appears...

I want to make yogurt. I'm attempting to be on the SCD diet. I got yogurt starter, but then I read that for SCD, yogurt should be made only with acidophilus. Hrm... I don't think I have the patience to source an SCD starter right now, but maybe it would work better to use my probiotics supplement as a starter instead of a yogurt starter. So I'm wondering about quantities, if anyone has any idea about this.


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## 3lilchunklins (Feb 22, 2012)

No idea, but wanted to sub on


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## tournesol (Jul 22, 2013)

Well nevermind... I have learned that some commercial yogurts only use acidophilus as starter and if desired, those should be used. My case isn't THAT severe so I think I will use bifidus for now.

Apparently I have both leaky gut, with a few food sensitivities, and small intestine bacterial overgrowth aka SIBO. A symptom of this is rapid bloating in the middle of the belly rather than the area occupied by the large intestine. So I'm on a regimen of oregano oil capsules that are quite tolerable for a month, for the SIBO. I also had the option of some antibiotics that apparently stay in the small intestines.

I'm still trying to get into SCD, especially having backup frozen meals and making cooking easier. I feel better on it. I believe I could probably eat a bunch of SCD illegal foods, but I think I'll reintroduce (soaked) grains slowly once everything is settled in, etc. Nightly reflux is taking awhile to dissipate, though.

I just got a dehydrator for drying soaked nuts, and I'm so happy about it. The hazelnuts are delicious. I need to gain weight and nuts have been iffy for me. It's also nice to have another, out of the way yet temperature controlled way to make the 24 hr yogurt.


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## 3lilchunklins (Feb 22, 2012)

Sorry, what is SCD?

I wish this thread was more active, like it appears to have been years ago.

I'm fairly new to all of this. So, I don't really know how to diagnose if you have a leaky gut or any other gut issues. I do however know, I've got yeast overgrowth. I had soooo much abx as a child, and drank pretty heavily in my early twenties. So, I take probiotics daily, I'm pregnant so I don't know what else I can safely do about it.


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## tournesol (Jul 22, 2013)

SCD is the specific carbohydrate diet, as described in the book "breaking the vicious cycle." There's also a lot of information about it online. Basically you are cutting out certain kinds of carbs that are hard to digest, and which bacteria (and maybe yeast) often ends up eating. Some of these are actually quite healthy for those with healthy digestions.

ABX is antibiotics?

I don't know if this will help you, but I stopped having trouble with yeast entirely (after years of chronic infections) when I stopped using menstrual pads, including natural kinds. I don't really feel comfortable going into details about what I do still use, though, on the internet! Also garlic cloves can be helpful, but you probably already know about that. I had also made a lot of lifestyle changes before that but they hadn't quite done the trick.

Have you read about anti-candida approaches? I once cut out sugars completely, and that helped a lot. However I have a sweet tooth, so that couldn't work over the long term. If you aren't a sugar or carb fixated person, that's a great thing to do. Even if you are, see what you can do to steadily decrease your sugar/carb intake. Start with whatever seems most likely to be the culprit and keep going as necessary.

As I said I don't have trouble with yeast anymore, but my dad is a skinny diabetic and I have a raging sweet tooth, so I do have to be careful. In SCD I can have honey and dates (don't know exactly why!). So I use raw dessert recipes. My favorite is a "nutella" that is very nut heavy... soaked & dried nuts (hazelnuts or almonds), dates, and virgin coconut oil, blended in the food processor, and spread on apple slices. Raw cocoa is SCD illegal but I still use it in emergencies 

It can really help to see a Naturopathic Doctor.


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