# trying to decide how long to breast feed



## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

I know I don't have to decide for a while, but I am really wrestling with deciding how long to BF my DD (she's 11 weeks). My tentative plan is to wean DD at about a year and then have a couple of months to "recharge" myself nutritionally before TTC again.

On the one hand, I know it is better for babies to nurse longer than a year. But on the other hand, I would really like to have my kids 2 years apart and I don't feel that is possible for me if I nurse much more than a year...I feel very strongly about not nursing while pregnant because I think that both pregnancy and breast feeding are very nutritionally demanding and the new baby is going to be the one getting short-shifted, which is not something I am willing to do...the only way I would nurse during pregnancy is if I accidentally got pregnant before DD is a year old (no offense to all those who do it, it is just not something I am going to do).

I know tandem nursing and nursing for several years are pretty popular here, and I am not looking to get into a debate on the merits of them...I guess I am just looking for support from anyone who has had similar thoughts or can offer any advice.


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## krizty (Dec 31, 2005)

A year is so far away... It's hard to tell where our lives will be in 1 year. I decided I will start with a short date and possibly extend it. I am thinking 9 months would be a great starting point. That is how long my mom bf us. We were 2 years apart.


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

I say this not condescendingly or rudely, but in a very friendly and helpful way, as i have been where you are...and am still there, LOL!!

But anyway, all i can say, is this...WAIT and SEE!!

You have no idea how things are going to go....you might find yourself at a year thinking..okay, great, lets wean and have another one....you might find yourself thinking..my gosh, there's no way i could possibly wean now...you might get a kid that, regardless of the nursing issue, makes you reconsider having a second one...for another year or two, or forever,LOL! You might be a women who gets your period back at 4 months post-partum, regarless of nursing, and finds yourself preggo at 5 months PP....or you might find yourself, even after weaning, in a battle with secondary infertility for 3 years before you conceive again.......

I guess, it's just one of those things that most people cant possibly know ahead of time...for example, before i had my baby, i *honestly* told my boss i would be taking a 12 week maternity leave and *definitely* coming back to work...the SECOND my daughter was born, i knew there was no way i could leave her.....I spent the 10 weeks crying thinking about going back, before i finally quit my job. Now, clearly, not everyone is like me, but that was just an example from my experience. On the flipside, another co-worker, who had planned an 8 week maternity leave, came back early, after only 6 weeks of leave, because she couldn't stand not working!!

You know, although some of the women on here have "strong views" about extended nursing....if you read different posts, many of them never intended for it to be that way...they didn't know when their baby was 11 weeks that they would nurse for 2 or 3 or more years..in fact, some will tell you they would have laughed in your face had you suggested it to them!!!...many of them started out thinking they would BF for 1 month..12 weeks...6 months...maybe a year...and then, simply found that keeping going was clearly what was natural and right for them......

I guess my point is..you really don't have to decide now.....in fact, you really probably shouldn't even try to decide now.....it's like trying to plan what youre going to have for lunch next november 21rst...??....









On a personal level, even though you said you have thought about it, I would just urge you to think again about why you want your children to be 2 years apart.....You clearly know about the benefits of nursing longer than a year, but perhaps you have not fully considered the impact of stopping then......you mention you do not believe in tandem nursing because the "new baby" will get short-shifted...well, conversely, if you stop nursing at a year, you are "short-shifting" the older child in favor of the "new baby"......not really trying to argue with you, just wondering if you have thought about it in that way?

Best of luck!!


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## newmommy27 (Apr 22, 2005)

when my little guy was born I committed to me and to him that i would nurse for a year...now that he is quickly approaching that milestone the idea of weaning seem not at all right for him....we too struggle with wanting to have more children and soon...I would love to be pregnant now...but as I work through wanting another child verses meeting the needs of a child that I already have for me it seems impossible to wean in an effort to conceive...that's just my .02 cents....

hth


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## AutumnMama (Jan 2, 2004)

Well, I agree that 11 weeks is really young to be thinking about it, but it's good to set goals for yourself









With DD I knew I wanted to nurse her for at least a year. Once she reached 11-12 months I just really didn't feel like that was what either of us wanted.
12 months old really isn't that old, she was still such a baby!

So I set another goal of 18 months, when that was getting a little closer I started reading more and was wanting to go closer to 2 years.

Well, I happened to get pregnant when she was 16-ish months old, and ended up weaning her a few days before she turned 19 months.

So, with DS I knew that I wanted to make it my goal to let him nurse for two years, then just play it by ear.
He turned 2 early last month, and (as you can see by my sig) I'm 13 weeks pregnant.
I'm not really excited about nursing while I'm pregnant (my milk supply is practically zilch, so I know he's not taking much-if anything-from me/the new baby), but I'm still kind of playing it by ear since he's really attached to nursing, especially to go to sleep.
But that's really neither here nor there I suppose









I wanted mine to be 2 years apart, my siblings and I were (there are three of us, I'm the oldest) so I thought that was really 'the best'...
Honestly though, I really wish I would've spaced them out another year.
I know DD wasn't ready to wean when I weaned her, and that caused some issues that I'm still dealing with to a certian extent today.
Plus I think it would be quite a bit easier, as there is a marked difference in maturity between 2 and 3 years









Anyway, I'm not trying to tell you what to do, just offering my experience and opinion from having done the 2 year thing









I say set your goal for 1 year minimum, and just see how you both feel then


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## PinkSunfish (Oct 20, 2002)

I agree with the other posters, don't get stressed about setting arbitary limits, especially at this satge. You have no idea where you will be in a years time.

I thought I would like to BF to two years but I didn't actually expect to be still doing it, I didn't expect to nurse through a pregnancy and I certianly didn't intend to be tandem nursing (which is what is going to happen when I have the baby). I didn't expect to have a child who *refused* solids until she was 13 months and didn't eat "properly" until she was 17 months which required that she get all her nutrition form BM for all that time.

Obviously what you do is up to you but let me reassure you that the baby does not get short changed by nursing through pregnancy (you might do if you don't eat well). I am clearly going to have another big baby so I don't think DD's continued nursng has had any detrimental effects.


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## sarahmck (Feb 11, 2005)

I am in a somewhat similar situation. My husband really wants to have our kids close together. Our dd is almost 10 months old. My husband would have ideally had our kids 18 months apart, but he really wants them at least 2 years apart. I'm not as committed to the really close spacing as he is, but I'd like to have them no more than 3 years apart.

Anyway, my daughter is still almost exclusively breastfed. She eats some food at dinner time when we eat and that's it. I feed her every couple of hours during the day and never go more than 6 hours without feeding her at night (and that would be a really fabulous night), so I don't have my period back yet. I've decided that I'm not going to let our desires to have another baby effect how I feed my current baby. So until I get my period back naturally based on my baby's feeding cues, I won't be getting pregnant. Once I do, though, I will have to decide if I'll wean her or try to tandem. I'm very torn about that subject because I've read about nursing aversions while pregnant and really painful nipples and it just seems to me like maybe nature is trying to tell us that we're not meant to still have one nursing while we're pregnant. That said, I'd like to have my cake and eat it too by having my babies close together AND letting them nurse as long as they want to. Dilemmas.

Good luck. I agree with everyone else that you ought to set a basic minimum goal now, but don't have it in your head that you will start to wean at a certain date, just that you will definitely breastfeed up to a certain date and then decide when that date arrives.


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## PinkSunfish (Oct 20, 2002)

Hi Sarah,

I was in the same position as you are now when DD was 10 months the only difference being that my period returned at 8 months pp (much to my surprose as DD wasfeeding evry 2 hours in the night still then).

My DH also wanted babies 18 months apart (FAR too close together for me) and my ideal was 2 years. I came to the same conclusion as you, I wasn't going to disrupt DD's feeding for a putative new baby so TTC might have to be on hold for a while.

DD started eaiting solids at 13 months and her eating gradually improved until she started eating VERY well at 17 months (when we gave her metal tipped cutlery). We started casually TTCing when DD was 13 months and conceived the next month!

I expected that DD would wean during the pregnancy (as that was what happened with other babies I knew) however she is still BFing now (although only for going to sleep and getting her back to sleep). I have had some nipple tenderness but not as bad as I thought it might be (and nowehere near as bad as during my first pregnancy). I am pretty ready for DD to wean but she is definately NOT so it looks like we will be tandem feeding which I hope will aid the trasition from singleton to big sister.

Just thought I would let you know that you are not alone in your situation.
I just tend to cross every BFing "bridge" as I come to it. This website is so helpful for keeping me feeling positive about what I am doing as I don't know anyone IRL who has fed as long as me, fed through a pregnancy or tandem nursed. Luckily most people I know are very supportive and those who aren't wouldn't dare be openly critical







!


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## turtlemama77 (Jul 29, 2005)

It sounds like you have your mind made up already about nursing while pregnant, OP, and that's cool, but for the benefit of other posters/lurkers, I'd like to correct a tiny bit of misinformation. From my reading and research, yes, nursing while pregnant is demanding nutritionally. However, the baby is NOT short shrifted or lacking in anything. Our bodies have a way of working so that the unborn baby gets what he/she needs, then the breastfeeding babe gets nutrients, and mama comes last. A woman who is taking care of herself, resting enough, eating a balanced diet, etc, will generally have no problems nursing through pregnancy and going on to have a healthy baby. I'm not saying it's an easy road all the time, but really, no one is suffering because of it.

That said, I agree with pp's...a year is a long time away. I didn't picture myself nursing past six months, let alone nursing a toddler while pregnant. It was amazing to me to see that when dd turned a year old, she really wasn't radically different, and actually still seemed very much a baby to me. Taking it one day at a time has really helped us in our breastfeeding relationship.

Good luck!


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

When ds was born I set 6 weeks as a "goal" and then 6 months and then a year. Now he's going to be 1 year old in a few days and I honestly can't imagine weaning him- he would be a wreck- he already gets very upset if I try to postpone nursing him for a few minutes. He still depends on nursing so much emotionally as well as nutritionally. I wouldn't be able to wean him right now if I wanted to without major fits and lots of tears- and he's too young to understand if I tried to explain it to him.

From my experience- it is usually the nursling that ends up short changed rather than the developing baby- many mom's find their milk dries up during pregnancy or their supply diminishes greatly- it seems to me that this is a natural way to ensure that the growing baby gets plenty of nourishment.


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## DoubleOven (Jan 7, 2006)

.


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## Hayes (Nov 20, 2001)

Welcome mama! As for nursing during pregnancy, I have done it before, and am doing it right now! My nursling is only 10 months old, so not ready to wean yet.

As for baby getting the short straw with regards to nutrition, it is actually quite the opposite! Your babe in utero will get nutrients first, simply because of how the body processes your food. Your nursling will get second billing, but that won't matterm uch since she will be, I would imagine, eating some solids by then so breatmilk needn't be the most important source of nutrition for her.

You will be the one who will have to watch your nutrition closely as your body will get what is left.

I agree with what most have said, wait and see. Since I was nursing while pregnant, my two older children both weaned around a year old. My milk was almost gone, they both ate plenty of solids, I wasn';t worried about them.

With my 3rd, I was able to REALLY enjoy our nursing since Iw asn't pregnant! hjowever, he completely self weaned at around 15 months. He woke up one morning and didn't want milk. We went to bed, and I realized he hadn't nursed all day. The next day was the same. I offered, he said no. And that was that!

Best wishes in a lovely nursing relationship with your baby. Take it one day at a time and enjoy all the wonderful moments that come with nursing!


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## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

I have to disagree with those who are saying that the babe in utero gets their nutrition first--the research I have done indicates that the mother gets their nutrition first and the babe has to take what is left. I know this is not what most doctors will tell you or the traditional view, but when you really research it that is what actually happens. It makes sense if you stop and think about it--the mother is naturally the stronger party so it is God's way of making sure the one who is more likely to survive survives if only one can.

Someone mentioned something else I had thought about--since many people have low supply and other issues while nursing while pregnant, it seems to me that we are not meant to nurse while pregnant.

I guess I will have to wait until DD is closer to a year and see how I feel/how she is doing eating solids, etc. I just like to try to plan everything out in advance--I'm a bit of a micro-manager! But I guess on this I will just have to wait and see how it goes.


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## turtlemama77 (Jul 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caedmyn*
I have to disagree with those who are saying that the babe in utero gets their nutrition first--the research I have done indicates that the mother gets their nutrition first and the babe has to take what is left. I know this is not what most doctors will tell you or the traditional view, but when you really research it that is what actually happens. It makes sense if you stop and think about it--the mother is naturally the stronger party so it is God's way of making sure the one who is more likely to survive survives if only one can.

Someone mentioned something else I had thought about--since many people have low supply and other issues while nursing while pregnant, it seems to me that we are not meant to nurse while pregnant.

I guess I will have to wait until DD is closer to a year and see how I feel/how she is doing eating solids, etc. I just like to try to plan everything out in advance--I'm a bit of a micro-manager! But I guess on this I will just have to wait and see how it goes.

I'd appreciate links or sources for your research. I get my information from Adventures in Tandem Nursing, which is an LLL book. LLL does tons of research about breastfeeding, so I trust it as a source. If you're getting that info from a doc, well, truth be told, most docs don't know much about nursing while pregnant.


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## mikesgirl64 (Sep 28, 2005)

My daughter is 11 months now and we are starting to ttc. I have to agree with others. Just wait and see how you feel then.







Before I got pg I was never going to nurse - now I can't imagine stopping. Having children close together is very important to us so we can't wait to give her a sibling, but I plan on nursing her as long as she needs. It just means I get to eat more.







Hopefully like others said nursing her will help ease her transition from singleton to big sister.


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## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

IMO most doctors don't know much about most things...but that's a whole 'nother topic!

A couple of links:
www.westonaprice.org/children/breastfeed.html
http://www.westonaprice.org/children...d_discuss.html
www.westonaprice.org/bookreviews/laleche.html
http://www.blueribbonbaby.org/ifyoua...nt/index.shtml
www.blueribbonbaby.org/cases.shtml
www.blueribbonbaby.org/evidence.shtml


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I would not wean a baby before 2 years. Everything I've read says that humans NEED milk for at least 2 years. Why would I take that away and replace it with a truly substandard replacement? It is not ethically acceptable in my book to short change the first child for the second.

-Angela


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caedmyn*
IMO most doctors don't know much about most things...but that's a whole 'nother topic!

A couple of links:
www.westonaprice.org/children/breastfeed.html
http://www.westonaprice.org/children...d_discuss.html
www.westonaprice.org/bookreviews/laleche.html
http://www.blueribbonbaby.org/ifyoua...nt/index.shtml
www.blueribbonbaby.org/cases.shtml
www.blueribbonbaby.org/evidence.shtml

I have also read extensively about nursing while pg and EVERY other source says that the line is baby, bmilk, mother. The mother's body will break down it's back up resources to guarantee the healthiness of the baby. Secondly, the milk will not decrease noticably in quality.

I'm not sure what the blue ribbon baby sites are supposed to be proving, but I have a hard time accepting the other site--- as it's motto is "Successful Breastfeeding and Successful Alternatives" (almost sounds like a formula ad).


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## Parker'smommy (Sep 12, 2002)

Surprisingly, I thought like you too....and I am a person that feels the need to manage everything!!!

But....I then looked at my one year old BABY and there was NO way I could wean him. He needed me AND my milk. There was no way I could put the needs of an UNCONCEIVED child above the one I had right there and now...and at my breast. It just seemed selfish of me to wean him just so I could conceive sibling. What if I didn't get pregnant? or right away? How would I feel then?

As it is, I ended up getting pregnant a few months after his second birthday and I was still nursing him. I did a lot of research, and knew that my body would care for my unborn child. Women have been doing it for years....nursing through pregnancy, and tandem nursing. It is not some new fad...its been occurring naturally....since the beginning of time.

I nursed my ds into my 8 th month of pregnancy with no ill effects at all. My goodness....my dd weighed 9 pounds 4 ounces....I'm POSITIVE she was getting plenty of nutrition!!!

But I agree with the rest of posters that say that you should see how you feel at a year. And I urge you to ask yourself how you would feel to wean a child that NEEDS your milk and then not get pregnant.


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## turtlemama77 (Jul 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caedmyn*
IMO most doctors don't know much about most things...but that's a whole 'nother topic!

A couple of links:
www.westonaprice.org/children/breastfeed.html
http://www.westonaprice.org/children...d_discuss.html
www.westonaprice.org/bookreviews/laleche.html
http://www.blueribbonbaby.org/ifyoua...nt/index.shtml
www.blueribbonbaby.org/cases.shtml
www.blueribbonbaby.org/evidence.shtml

Thanks. I've just had a chance to skim some of the information, but I did look up the Weston Price Foundation, where the information comes from. It looks like this foundation supports agriculture/dairy industry...I don't know a lot about it, but it does look like the information is slanted in favor of these industries. This concerns me because isn't formula made from milk/dairy? I'll read more, but I'd be interested in what you have to say to this, or if you could tell us more about the Weston Price Foundation.


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## plantmama (Jun 24, 2005)

When ds was born I thought 1 year was the perfect age to nurse until and then wean. Ha! Having a baby has definately taught me to be flexible.
Ds is 26 months. I am not too keen on breastfeeding while pregnant, but am hoping that we'll figure out the weaning thing soon.
I am not into having kids that close in age though, so am not faced with this problem.


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

I haven't had a chance to compare Weston Price and Blue Ribbon Baby against La Leche League in terms of research quality and ability to interpret data, but I can share my personal experience.

I started out saying I would breastfeed my daughter IF I could. I quickly went to saying we would nurse for at least a year. She's 15 months old and I'm now planning on letting her wean when she's ready.

I also became pregnant when she was 10.5 months old.









Studies aside, I can tell you that the baby inside me is quite strong and active -- at least as much as dd was -- and is growing at the same rate she was, which is a little ahead of average. There is absolutely no reason, based on comparing data between my two pregnancies, to think this baby isn't getting the full, optimal nutrition he needs.

You'll do what's right for you and your family. I just want you to know that if you do want to space your children closely, as we are, and continue nursing your eldest, they aren't mutually exclusive.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *turtlemama77*
Thanks. I've just had a chance to skim some of the information, but I did look up the Weston Price Foundation, where the information comes from. It looks like this foundation supports agriculture/dairy industry...I don't know a lot about it, but it does look like the information is slanted in favor of these industries. This concerns me because isn't formula made from milk/dairy? I'll read more, but I'd be interested in what you have to say to this, or if you could tell us more about the Weston Price Foundation.









:


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## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

Weston Price was a dentist who noticed that there was a relationship between tooth decay and the general nutrition of a person...in the 30's and 40's he visited many isolated groups of people who still ate their native diet (ie no processed foods such as white flour, sugar, canned goods, etc). He found that these people were very healthy, had almost no cavities, and none of the modern diseases such as arthritis, heart disease, diabetes, etc. He also found that when they abandoned their native diet and ate processed foods, they developed these diseases. He analyzed their traditional diets and found that they were much higher in many nutrients than American diets (and diets back then were actually healthier than they are today!).

The WAP (Weston A Price) Foundation basically tries to spread the information that he found and promote healthy diets. They do promote meat/dairy because Dr. Price found that all the native groups that he studied relied heavily on animal products, and there are many nutrients that it is difficult or impossible to obtain solely from plant sources.

I realize this goes against pretty much all the conventional nutritional advice, especially for vegetarians, but if you really research nutrition (and you will have to go well beyond the standard "eat whole grains and limit saturated fat") it is fairly obvious that Dr. Price's recommendations are accurate.

The reason I posted those particular links is because they list many studies on nutrition in pregnancy/breast feeding. The info generally does contradict most of the standard nutritional advice, but that doesn't mean it is not accurate--and there are studies to back that up.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caedmyn*
The reason I posted those particular links is because they list many studies on nutrition in pregnancy/breast feeding. The info generally does contradict most of the standard nutritional advice, but that doesn't mean it is not accurate--and there are studies to back that up.

I guess I just question why it directly contradicts all the research I have seen.

And "alternatives" to bmilk... there really aren't any that are equal.


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

hmmm...interesting...
I'll just be here listening in...


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## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

I agree there isn't anything that is equal to BM, although there is a homemade formula recipe I've found that I would use if for some reason I was unable to breast feed as the best possible substitute...but again if your diet is poor your BM isn't going to be all that great, either.

As far as why the research contradicts the other research that's out there...that's not any different than why most people/doctors/etc say formula is as good as BM...a combination of big industry (not necessarily on breast feeding specifically but nutrition in general), ignorance, and people not digging deep enough to get to the real facts.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caedmyn*
but again if your diet is poor your BM isn't going to be all that great, either.

Show me any research that says this. Everything I've read says that the "worst" breastmilk is miles and miles beyond the "best" formula.

-angela


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caedmyn*
I agree there isn't anything that is equal to BM, although there is a homemade formula recipe I've found that I would use if for some reason I was unable to breast feed as the best possible substitute...but again if your diet is poor your BM isn't going to be all that great, either.









But, it will be MUCH better than formula or and non-species specific milk substitute. Additionally, from what I have read it is the *quantity* of milk that dimenishes in extreme famine situations, not the quality. Even malnourished women produce that is of excellent quality (I'm guessing some of the more obscure components, of which formula would have none, may be lessened, but the basic sugar/fat/protein vitamin/mineral ratios are the same).


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I have no doubts that the fetus gets everything it needs before the mother. This explains whys ome people suffer from hyeperemisis (like myself), lose lots of weight during their pregnancies, and birth healthy babies (8lbs, 9 ozs) in my case.

I am nursing during pregnancy and suffering from hyperemisis, and the fetus is fine.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Well, now I know that I won't accept any "research" from Weston Price:

Quote:

Formula manufacturers are quick to use the lackluster performance of breastfed children as proof that formula is "just as good" as breast milk. Breastfeeding advocates retort that the studies were designed to give results that benefit the formula makers. Our interpretation is the following: the diet of modern American women is so appalling, and their preparation for successful breastfeeding so lacking, that their breast milk provides no better nourishment for their infants than factory-made formula.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

I'm still not seeing this "research."

I saw some anecdotal stories. Some conclusions drawn. Can you point a bit more specficially to the research pertaining to bmilk quality while pregnant?


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:

Formula manufacturers are quick to use the lackluster performance of breastfed children as proof that formula is "just as good" as breast milk. Breastfeeding advocates retort that the studies were designed to give results that benefit the formula makers. Our interpretation is the following: the diet of modern American women is so appalling, and their preparation for successful breastfeeding so lacking, that their breast milk provides no better nourishment for their infants than factory-made formula.
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the ridiculousness of this quotation.


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

All the "research" aside, my own last two babies, both of whom were in utero while nursing an older sibling, were 8' 15' and 9 lbs even respectively. I do not think that they were in any way shortchanged by my decision to nurse through pregnancy. In addition, this is my 2nd time tandem nursing, and if anything, my supply is greater with two little nurslings.

Perhaps this anecdotal "evidence" will reassure you slightly about the benefits (and risks) of nursing through pregnancy.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyboys*
All the "research" aside, my own last two babies, both of whom were in utero while nursing an older sibling, were 8' 15' and 9 lbs even respectively. I do not think that they were in any way shortchanged by my decision to nurse through pregnancy. In addition, this is my 2nd time tandem nursing, and if anything, my supply is greater with two little nurslings.

Perhaps this anecdotal "evidence" will reassure you slightly about the benefits (and risks) of nursing through pregnancy.

Excellent point.

DD was 7lb 14oz at birth.
I nursed her through my pg w/DS (at the beginning she was getting well over 75% of her calories from bmilk, at the end she was still nursing 3-8X in 24 hours).
DS was 8lb 2oz at birth.


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## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

I'm pretty sure I posted this already, but here it is again...note the studies.
www.westonaprice.org/children/breastfeed.html#1

This is anecdotal (sp?) evidence, but if you search the nutrition forum for a thread, I think it is called "what parts of NT do you disagree with", a couple of women posted on it about how their poor diets affected their breast-fed babies.

Also, some of you are confusing "big" with "healthy". Just because a newborn is big doesn't necessarily mean they are healthy (not saying your babies aren't healthy, just that your reasoning is incorrect). Babies born to mothers who have gestational diabetes are usually big but are also more prone to problems. I haven't done any research on it, but I bet if you study hyperemesis (or whatever it is called, not sure of the exact name) you will find that those pregnancies are more prone to various problems like pre-eclampsia, pre-term labor, etc...obviously it is not going to happen in every or maybe even in most cases, but I would bet that the risks are increased for both mother and baby.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Actually, they have studied hyperemeisis. Extensively. Look at motherrisk.org for example.

And they found that morning sickness and hyperemisis actually have a high correlation with very healthy pregnancies- less likely to miscarry, have preterm labour, have pre-e, etc etc.

It is your body and your decision when to wean, when to get pregnant, etc, but your studies and your evidence is flat out wrong.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna*
I would not wean a baby before 2 years. Everything I've read says that humans NEED milk for at least 2 years. Why would I take that away and replace it with a truly substandard replacement? It is not ethically acceptable in my book to short change the first child for the second.


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## Lizzo (Jul 26, 2005)

I remember friend's moms and DP's mom saying to me when I was pregnant "Oh! I breastfed this chil for 4-5 months!" As if they'd done it forever and so I thought it was so long to breastfeed to 4-5 months and it was hard for me to picture a 4-5 month baby breastfeeding.I thought 'Well, I'll def go to 4-5 motnhs...wont I?'. And then DS was born and turned 4 months, 5 months and I was like 'He is SO small and SO young! How could he NOT be breastfeeding!?"
Before I had my DS I was like "6 mons definately, and if he makes it to one year, then that'll be great" Then he was born and I was like "Ok- definately to one year and if he makes it to two"
And then...I stopped thinking about and decided that even though I may think it'll be odd breasfeeding this big honkin 3 or 4 year old, it wont be when and if that time comes. I think now that as long as he's doing it, I'll feel it's natural and easy.
I've decided to follow his lead...but that's just me.
I guess my point is, it's hard to picture yourself breastfeeding past a certain age(or at all even!), maybe b/c you're like I was and hadn't seen many womyn breastfeeding an infant let alone a toddler or maybe b/c of how society makes breastfeeding taboo, but when it happens and you're doing it...you can't imagine it any other way.
Your perception of it changes when you're actually doing it, YKWIM?


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

About the Weston Price foundation linked to earlier:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weston_A._Price_Foundation
To summarize, he is a dentist on the fringe who claims there are profound nutritional benefits in butter and raw milk and meat.... and to stay away from 'fad diets' and soy.

The website strongly criticizes "The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding" for their nutritional advice. I didn't read more than that.

I would be wary of getting all my info from one or two 'fringe' sites.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caedmyn*
I haven't done any research on it, but I bet

Seriously?


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
Well, now I know that I won't accept any "research" from Weston Price:

Wow that quote is horrific.

A woman with even the poorest diet will still product breast milk that is superior to formula. I can not believe I have to actually type that out here on MDC.


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

You need to do a bit better job of researching because the research you have shown is wrong. Dead wrong.


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## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

I didn't do the research...I'm just citing it. If someone isn't open-minded enough to at least read the studies (and there are many cited on the links I posted), there's not much I can do about it. As I said before, there is PLENTY of evidence to back up Dr. Price's conclusions, even though they directly contradict current nutritional "wisdom".

It always amazes me when someone who is willing to go against the mainstream in one area (such as extended breast feeding) is completely closed minded to anything that goes against the mainstream in another area. But I guess I should know to expect it, and there's always the chance that just one person will be interested enough to actually research for themselves.

Anyhow, getting into a nutrition debate was not at all the purpose of this thread, so I am done posting on this thread...if someone is sincerely interested and open-minded to the nutrition issue they can PM me and I'll be happy to respond.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Listen to that mama intuition. Its the most important thing you'll ever own.


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caedmyn*
I didn't do the research...I'm just citing it. If someone isn't open-minded enough to at least read the studies (and there are many cited on the links I posted), there's not much I can do about it. As I said before, there is PLENTY of evidence to back up Dr. Price's conclusions, even though they directly contradict current nutritional "wisdom".

It always amazes me when someone who is willing to go against the mainstream in one area (such as extended breast feeding) is completely closed minded to anything that goes against the mainstream in another area. But I guess I should know to expect it, and there's always the chance that just one person will be interested enough to actually research for themselves.

Anyhow, getting into a nutrition debate was not at all the purpose of this thread, so I am done posting on this thread...if someone is sincerely interested and open-minded to the nutrition issue they can PM me and I'll be happy to respond.

You just admitted YOU hadn't done any research. You are the one not listening (or reading).

Breastfeeding is always superior, your sources have been identified as being aligned with formula promotion and many moms have spoken from PERSONAL experience.

What exactly are you asking?


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## turtlemama77 (Jul 29, 2005)

My point for questioning those studies and debating this here is that if a mama is lurking and just found out she is pregnant, I would hate to have false information scare her into weaning. Of course, every mama has to do her own research and soul searching before making a decision to nurse while pregnant (I know I did). I just don't think that a website that advocates formula as equal to breastmilk is a good place to get said research though.

Mamas who may be lurking and in a situation of being pregnant and nursing, there is lots of information and research backing up the safety of doing so both at www.kellymom.com and in Adventures in Tandem Nursing.

Maybe because I am nursing while pregnant is the reason this is bothering me so much, or maybe it's just plain pregnancy hormones.

Again, good luck with your decision.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Welcome to MDC.

This is a good place to get support for nursing over a year, nursing during pregnancy, and tandem nursing.
This is not the best place for advice on weaning at or before a year for non-medical reasons. There are other sites where you'll be more likely to find the kind of support you seem to be looking for.
Know where you are.
The responses to your post have been intelligent. If anyone's not looking critically at research, it's you. The "mainstream" would have us all formula-feed. Knowledge about nursing during pregnancy is not in any way mainstream. Supporting nursing during pregnancy is not at all mainstream.

If you're considering nursing for over a year, read the many threads filled with information about the benefits - to you and to your babe.

I've nursed my son for 3.5 years. I plan to wean him by his 4th birthday. It's something that he and I talk about on a regular basis, to prepare for it. I never thought I'd be able to nurse for more than 6 months, due to medical issues. However, I've made it this far! I took it six months at a time until I realized that I wouldn't have to wean to go back on meds after all. From there, I've set boundaries as my son was able to deal with them. I used to be amazed at people who were nursing two-year olds. Here I am, nursing an almost-4-year-old. He's not a baby anymore, but he's also not a big kid. He still loves his "milkies" as much as ever, and breastmilk is still incredibly good for him. I didn't expect to nurse for this long, but I have. And I'll do the same for my next child, if that's what he/she wants. I honestly can't imagine weaning a one-year-old. I know my son would have suffered greatly if I found it necessary to wean at that point. Our entire relationhip would have suffered.


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## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

One last post to clarify...I should have said I didn't do the research STUDIES...I have done quite a bit of research, actually. And I never said (or intended to imply in any way) that formula is as good as or superior to breast milk...my point was simply that nutrition DOES affect the quality of breast milk, just as it DOES affect an unborn baby.


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## Victorian (Jan 2, 2003)

I took a nutritian class a couple of years ago. I was going to write my final paper on the effects of poor diet on breastmilk and decided against it because there are NO valid studies that show anything but this: regardless of the woman's diet the composition of breastmilk is best for baby.

There is no research to suggest otherwise than it is completely safe to breastfeed you baby during pregnancy. If you don't want to that is fine, but it is not a decision based on health matters.

V.


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## liawbh (Sep 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caedmyn*
And I never said (or intended to imply in any way) that formula is as good as or superior to breast milk...

While you may not have said it, the source that you are relying so heavily on DOES say exactly that. I find it very hard to understand why a _dentist_ with questionable claims seems a more reliable source of info. on BFing than LLL, MDs, NDs, experienced moms, and others who have exponentially better credentials.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

I wish we had a duck smilie, because that doctor is a QUACK!! I cannot believe that he can say in all seriousness that formula is EVER superior to breastmilk. I could have eaten nothing but Doritos & Pepsi & my milk would have been superior to formula.

I wish I could find the LLL picture of a mom in a third world country- for whatever reason she nursed one of her babies & had to formula feed the other. The BF baby was fat & healthy & the poor little baby who was fed formula was wasted away to barely nothing. Very very sad.

I honestly can't believe that these posts are allowed to stay up on Mothering. Sometimes I have to do a double take to make sure I haven't strayed into Babycenter or something. Next thing you know Gary Ezzo will become a member.


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## Peri Patetic (Feb 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caedmyn*
One last post to clarify...I should have said I didn't do the research STUDIES...I have done quite a bit of research, actually.

There's a world of difference between reading studies and reading them critically/understanding them.

Of course, that's assuming one has actually read the complete studies, and not simple summaries or someone else's paraphrased version of the studies. Or, worse yet, the citations of studies listed at the end of an article where one of the authors has an obvious bias (note her own story of BF found elsewhere on the site). Now, maybe I'm wrong, and you've actually got copies of each of those studies which you have read and understood thoroughly. So if you can pull out just one of those studies listed and quote the specific information in that study that supports the point being made by the author of the article, I'll eat my keyboard.

Reading a website with references is not research. Unless you've gone to the primary sources, consider yourself unenlightened on the subject.


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## BamBam'sMom (Jun 4, 2005)

I haven't read all the replies so I don't know if my coments have been made already. First of all, I agree with everyone that you should just wait and see how you feel. I worried about weaning right from the beginning and just planned on going for a year. Now ds is almost a year and I see that there is no way I could wean him right now. He loves nursing. It's his favorite comfort, his lovey, and about 80-90% of his diet.

Also, how do you know you won't be able to get pregnant while nusing? I know someone who's cycle returned when her ebf baby was 3 months. That's rare, but I don't think that bf is an effective form of birth control after 6 months, especially not if your baby is starting solids.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BamBam'sMom*
Also, how do you know you won't be able to get pregnant while nusing? I know someone who's cycle returned when her ebf baby was 3 months. That's rare, but I don't think that bf is an effective form of birth control after 6 months, especially not if your baby is starting solids.

Boy, ain't that the truth.







I got Aunt Flo back at 7 months postpartum, much to my chagrin, and was pregnant again by 10.5 months.

















And I, too, would be most interested in seeing what research backs up this assertion that formula is somehow preferable to the breastmilk of a mother with an imperfect diet.

Or that BF during pregnancy has some identifiable damaging effect on a subsequent pregnancy... but I'm not holding my breath for the research to appear, either.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I got pregnant while nursing and happily nursed throughout pregnancy and am now tandem nursing my 3 1/2 year old and my 13 month old - I never thought I would but I did! So never say never!

When I got pregnant DS #3 was still very much attached to his nursies and I didn't want to take them away from him by weaning. I did end up losing most of my milk towards the end of my pregnancy but that didn't stop him! Hehehe. Anyways, all three of us were very healthy throughout and DS #4 was born full term and weighing in at just over 9 pounds.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Oh I also wanted to add that I thought it would take me awhile to get pregnant due to nursing and we conceived on the very first month trying!


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## afishwithabike (Jun 8, 2005)

Let the child decide if at all possible. Then you can share the information at a later time the older sibling chose when younger sibling would be born. Talk about a neat thing for a child to know. A feeling of participation in the family.


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## ~*~MamaJava~*~ (Mar 7, 2004)

Just wanted to share my experience and offer my opinion that you should go with the flow














: and set your goal for at least a year.
I bfed my 1st ds for only 5 months and was pg that 5th month. I know it was stupid to wean him, it's a long story, and I've learned my lesson. Point is, I was just barely postpartum, nursing, and got pg.
Now, the second time around, I bfed #2 for 1 year. I never got my period, and weaned up basically in the hopes of getting pg.

I so, so, SO regret that. First of all, it was a beautiful nursing relationship, both of us loved it. Second, once he was weaned, he got pneumonia and a rash on his cheeks (which he still has), and I guess I blame weaning for those things as he was in perfect health until then (as in, not even a cold). Thirdly, I did get pg a month or two later, but lost the baby anyways at 6 wks, and here I am nine months after weaning and I am not pg. So it didn't even work - and it doesn't work for lots of people.

That being said, it's just my .02. I think it's best to set weaning out of your mind. I thought about it too much with #1 and weaned him way too early. I put it out of my mind for a long time with #2 and I'm proud of nursing him for a year, but sad that I didn't keep going into that second year.

Like darsmama said, listen to your mama instinct. I didn't, I listened to my brain. Bad idea.


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## cuttiebearmom (Oct 22, 2004)

I'd take the 'wait and see' approach









Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
I have also read extensively about nursing while pg and EVERY other source says that the line is baby, bmilk, mother. The mother's body will break down it's back up resources to guarantee the healthiness of the baby. Secondly, the milk will not decrease noticably in quality.

I agree, definatley everything that I have read is in line with baby, breastmilk, mother.

That being said some women do have an EXCEPTIONALLY hard time breastfeeding while pg and some do get quite a noticeable decrease in QUANTITY not quality. I see this as your body basically saying 'sorry, we got to prioritize here!'. There also is arguably a taste change for some women which can result in a child weaning due to that.

Good luck on the next year of bf, ENJOY IT !!!!


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## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

I am planning on BFing for at least a year...I posted simply because I am a bit conflicted as to what to do, and since I know there are people elsewhere on mothering that have similar views nutrition-wise, I guess I thought some of those same people might be on this board, also...my mistake. I guess I also should have read a few more of the posts here to determine what the prevailing opinion on this board is and not bothered posting anything that didn't fully agree with that opinion.

That being said, I have read abstracts for some of the studies listed (not sure if that is the same as a summary that somebody else referred to). It is virtually impossible to find the whole text of any study unless you either find a book that it has been published in or you pay to subscribe to the sites that list the full text, so I have to be content with the abstracts. I have also read a book by Dr (an actual MD, not a dentist) Tom Brewer, who did a great deal of research (he actually ran the studies) on nutrition and pregnancy. I trust that his conclusions based on his own research are accurate. I listed links to his site below the WAP ones...guess I should have listed those first and maybe people would have been a bit more open (granted they are discussing nutrition during pregnancy, not breast feeding, but I believe the principle applies to both).


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## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

And while we're on the subject of research, can anybody point me to a study showing that babies need BM for the first 2 years? Before anybody gets all up in arms, I'm not saying that they don't (I have no idea either way, never heard that before), I would just like to know where this is coming from.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

not a study but for starters...

http://www.kellymom.com/bf/bfextended/ebf-benefits.html

http://fermat.nap.edu/books/0309043913/html/index.html


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

References: Nutritional Benefits

See also Breastmilk Composition

Ahn CH, MacLean WC Jr. Growth of the exclusively breast-fed infant. Am J Clin Nutr. 1980 Feb;33(2):183-92.

Briend A, Wojtyniak B and Rowland MG. Breast feeding, nutritional state, and child survival in rural Bangladesh. Br Med J (Clin Res Ed). 1988 Mar 26;296(6626):879-82.

Casey CE, Neville MC, Hambidge KM. Studies in human lactation: secretion of zinc, copper, and manganese in human milk. Am J Clin Nutr 1989 May;49(5):773-85.

Dewey KG, Finley DA, Lonnerdal B. Breast milk volume and composition during late lactation (7-20 months). J Pediatr Gastroenterol Nutr 1984 Nov;3(5):713-20.

Dewey KG. Nutrition, Growth, and Complementary Feeding of the Breastfed Infant. Pediatric Clinics of North American. February 2001;48(1).

Grummer-Strawn LM. Does prolonged breast-feeding impair child growth? A critical review. Pediatrics. 1993;91:766-771.

Hamosh M, Dewey, Garza C, et al: Nutrition During Lactation. Institute of Medicine, Washington, DC, National Academy Press, 1991. This book is available free from the HRSA Information Center (look under Nutrition publications).

Jelliffe DB and Jelliffe EF. The volume and composition of human milk in poorly nourished communities. A review. Am J Clin Nutr. 1978 Mar;31(3):492-515.

Karra MV, Udipi SA, Kirksey A, and Roepke JL. Changes in specific nutrients in breast milk during extended lactation. Am J Clin Nutr. 1986; 43: 495-503.

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Onyango, Adelheid W., Receveur, Olivier and Esrey, Steven A. The contribution of breast milk to toddler diets in western Kenya. Bull World Health Organ, 2002, vol.80 no.4. ISSN 0042-9686.

Persson V, Greiner T, Islam S, and Gebre-Medhin M. The Helen Keller international food-frequency method underestimates vitamin A intake where sustained breastfeeding is common. Food and Nutrition Bulletin, vol.19 no.4. Tokyo, Japan: United Nations University Press, 1998.

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Tangermann RH, et al. Breastfeeding beyond twelve months. Lancet. 1988 Oct 29;2(8618):1016.

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UNICEF/Wellstart: Promoting Breastfeeding in Health Facilities: A short course for Administrators and Policy Makers; WHO/CDR 93.4.

Victora CG, et al. Is prolonged breastfeeding associated with malnutrition? Am J Clin Nutr. 1984 Feb;39(2):307-14.

Whitehead RG. The human weaning process. Pediatrics. 1985 Jan;75(1 Pt 2):189-93.

[top] References: Immunological Benefits

Immune factors in human milk @

Briend A, Wojtyniak B and Rowland MG. Breast feeding, nutritional state, and child survival in rural Bangladesh. Br Med J (Clin Res Ed). 1988 Mar 26;296(6626):879-82.

Goldman AS et al. Immunologic components in human milk during weaning. Acta Paediatr Scand. 1983 Jan;72(1):133-4.

Goldman AS, Goldblum RM, Garza C. Immunologic components in human milk during the second year of lactation. Acta Paediatr Scand. 1983 May;72(3):461-2.

Gulick EE. The effects of breastfeeding on toddler health. Pediatr Nurs. 1986 Jan-Feb;12(1):51-4.

Hamosh M. Bioactive factors in human milk. Pediatr Clin North Am 2001 Feb;48(1):69-86.

Hamosh M, Dewey, Garza C, et al: Nutrition During Lactation. Institute of Medicine, Washington, DC, National Academy Press, 1991, pp. 133-140. This book is available free from the HRSA Information Center (look under Nutrition publications).

Lawrence R and Lawrence R. Breastfeeding: A Guide for the Medical Profession, 5th ed. St. Louis: Mosby, 1999, p. 159-195. See particularly Table 5-2 on p. 169: "Concentration of immunologic components in human milk collected during second year of lactation"

Palti H, Mansbach I, Pridan H, Adler B, Palti Z. Episodes of illness in breast-fed and bottle-fed infants in Jerusalem. Isr J Med Sci 1984 May;20(5):395-9.

[top] References: Allergies

Halken S, Host A, Hansen LG, Osterballe O. Effect of an allergy prevention programme on incidence of atopic symptoms in infancy. A prospective study of 159 "high-risk" infants. Allergy 1992 Oct;47(5):545-53.

Hanson LA, Korotkova M, Telemo E. Breast-feeding, infant formulas, and the immune system. Ann Allergy Asthma Immunol. 2003 Jun;90(6 Suppl 3):59-63.

Marini A, Agosti M, Motta G, Mosca F. Effects of a dietary and environmental prevention programme on the incidence of allergic symptoms in high atopic risk infants: three years' followup. Acta Pædiatr 1996;Suppl 414 vol 85:1-19.

Saarinen UM, Kajosaari M. Breastfeeding as prophylaxis against atopic disease: prospective follow-up study until 17 years old. Lancet 1995;346:1065-69.

Savilahti E, et al. Prolonged exclusive breast feeding and heredity as determinants in infantile atopy. Arch Dis Child. 1987 Mar;62(3):269-73.

[top] References: Intelligence

Breastfeeding and Cognitive Function Bibliography by Marsha Walker,RN,IBCLC

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Anderson JW. Breast-feeding and cognitive development: a meta-analysis. Am J Clin Nutr 1999, Oct; 70(4): 525-35.

Andraca I, Uauy R. Breastfeeding for optimal mental development. Simopoulos AP, Dutra de Oliveira JE, Desai ID (eds): Behavioral and Metabolic Aspects of Breastfeeding. World Rev Nutr Diet. Basel, Karger, 1995;78:1-27.

Bauer G et al. Breastfeeding and cognitive development of three-year-old children. Psychological Reports 1991; 68:1218.

Crawford MA. The role of essential fatty acids in neural development: implications for perinatal nutrition. Am J Clin Nutr 1993;57(suppl):703S-10S.

Elwood PC, Pickering J, Gallacher JE, Hughes J, Davies D. Long term effect of breast feeding: cognitive function in the Caerphilly cohort. J Epidemiol Community Health. 2005 Feb;59(2):130-3.

Florey C Du V, Leech AM, Blackhall A. Infant feeding and mental and motor development at 18 months of age in first born singletons. Int J Epidem 1995;24 (Suppl 1):S21-6.

Gordon N. Nutrition and cognitive function. Brain and Development 1997;19:165-70.

Greene LC, Lucas A, Livingstone BE, Harland PSEG, Baker BA. Relationship between early diet and subsequent cognitive performance during adolescence. Biochem Soc Trans 1995;23:376S.

Horwood LJ, Darlow BA, Mogridge N. Breast milk feeding and cognitive ability at 7-8 years. Arch Dis Child Fetal Neonatal Ed. 2001 Jan;84(1):F23-7.

Horwood LJ, Fergusson DM. Breastfeeding and later cognitive and academic outcomes. Pediatrics. 1998 Jan;101(1):E9.

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Makrides M, Neumann MA, Byard RW, Simmer K, Gibson RA. Fatty acid composition of brain, retina and erythrocytes in breast and formula fed infants. Am J Clin Nutr 1994;60:189-94.

Morley R, Cole TJ, Powell R, Lucas A. Mother's choice to provide breast milk and developmental outcome. Arch Dis Child. 1988 Nov;63(11):1382-5.

Morrow-Tlucak M, Haude RH, Ernhart CB. Breastfeeding and cognitive development in the first 2 years of life. Soc Sci Med. 1988;26(6):635-9.

Mortensen EL, Michaelsen KF, Sanders SA, Reinisch JM. The Association Between Duration of Breastfeeding and Adult Intelligence. JAMA. 2002;287:2365-2371.

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Neuringer M, Connor WE, Lin DS, Barstad L, Luck S. Biochemical and functional effects of prenatal and postnatal fatty acid deficiency on retina and brain in rhesus monkeys. Proc Natl Acad Sc USA 1986;83:4021-5.

Niemelä A, Järvenpää A-L. Is breastfeeding beneficial and maternal smoking harmful to the cognitive development of children? Acta Pædiatr 1996;85:1202-6.

Oddy WH, et al. Breast feeding and cognitive development in childhood: a prospective birth cohort study. Paediatr Perinat Epidemiol. 2003 Jan;17(1):81-90.

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Pollock JI. Longterm associations with infant feeding in a clinically advantaged population of babies. Dev Med Child Neur 1994;36:429-40.

Richards M, Hardy R, Wadsworth ME. Long-term effects of breast-feeding in a national birth cohort: educational attainment and midlife cognitive function. Public Health Nutr. 2002 Oct;5(5):631-5.

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Rogan WJ, Gladen BC. Breastfeeding and cognitive development. Early Hum Dev 1993;31:181-93.

Silver LB, Levinson RB, Laskin CR, Pilot LJ. Learning disabilities as a probable consequence of using chloride-deficient infant formula. J Pediatr 1989;115:97-9

Taylor B, Wadsworth J. Breastfeeding and child development at five years. Dev Med Child Neurol 1984;26:73-80.

Temboury MC, Otero A, Polanco I, Arribas E. Influence of breastfeeding on the infant's intellectual development. J Pediatric Gastroenterol Nutr 1994;18:32-36.

Wang YS, Wu SY. The effect of exclusive breastfeeding on development and incidence of infection in infants. JHL 1996;12:27-30.

Willoughby A, Moss HA, Hubbard VS, Bercu BB, Graubard BI, Vietze PM, et al. Developmental outcome in children exposed to chloride deficient formula. Pediatrics 1987;79:851-7.

Wing CS. Defective infant formulas and expressive language problems: a case study. Language, Speech and Hearing Services in Schools 1990;21:22-7.

[top] References: Social Adjustment

Baldwin, EN. Extended Breastfeeding and the Law. Mothering 1993 (Spring);66:88.

Baumgartner C. Psychomotor and Social Development of Breast Fed and Bottle Fed babies During their First year of Life. Acta Paediatrica Hungarica, 1984.

Ferguson DM et al. Breastfeeding and subsequent social adjustment in six- to eight-year-old children. J Child Psychol Psychiatr Allied Discip 1987; 28:378-86.

Waletzky LR. Breastfeeding and weaning. Some psychological considerations. Prim Care. 1979 Jun;6(2):341-55.

[top] References: Breastfeeding as the Norm

American Academy of Pediatrics Section on Breastfeeding. Breastfeeding and the Use of Human Milk. Pediatrics. Feb 2005;115(2): 496-50.

The American Academy of Family Physicians. Position Paper on Breastfeeding. 2001.

Dettwyler KA. A Natural Age of Weaning.

Dettwyler KA."A Time to Wean" from Breastfeeding: Biocultural Perspectives, 1995.

Novello A, MD, US Surgeon General, "You Can Eat Healthy," Parade Magazine (11 Nov 1990): 5.

World Health Organization. Global strategy on infant and young child feeding. 16 April 2002.

World Health Organization. Innocenti Declaration: World Declaration and
Plan of Action for Nutrition. Rome, December 1992.

[top] References: Mother's Fertility

The Lactational Amenorrhea Method of birth control

Badroui MHH, Hefnawi F. Ovarian function during lactation. In: Hafez ESE, ed. Human Ovulation. Amsterdam: Elsevier-North Holland Biomedical, 1979: 233-41.

Diaz S, Aravena R, Cardenas H, Casado ME, Miranda P, Schiappacasse V, Croxatto HB. Contraceptive efficacy of lactational amenorrhea in urban Chilean women. Contraception. 1991 Apr;43(4):335-52.

Diaz S, Peralta O, Juez G, Salvatierra AM, Casado ME, Duran E, Croxatto HB. Fertility regulation in nursing women: I. The probability of conception in full nursing women living in an urban setting. J Biosoc Sci. 1982 Jul;14(3):329-41.

Elias,M.F. "Nursing Practices and Lactation Amenorrhoea." Journal of Biosco Sci, 1968.

Kennedy KI, Visness CM. Contraceptive efficacy of lactational amenorrhoea. Lancet. 1992 Jan 25;339(8787):227-30.

Lewis PR, Brown JB, Renfree MB, Short RV. The resumption of ovulation and menstruation in a well-nourished population of women breastfeeding for an extended period of time. Fertil Steril. 1991 Mar;55(3):529-36.

Rolland R: Bibliography (with review) on contraceptive effects of breastfeeding. Biblio Reprod 1976;28:1-4, 93.

Short RV, Lewis PR, Renfree MB, Shaw G. Contraceptive effects of extended lactational amenorrhoea: beyond the Bellagio Consensus. Lancet. 1991 Mar 23;337(8743):715-7.

Simpson-Hebert M, Huffman SL. The contraceptive effect of breastfeeding. Stud Fam Plann 1981;12:125-33.

Van Ginnekin JK. Prolonged breastfeeding as a birth spacing method. Stud Fam Plann 1974;5:201-6.

[top] References: Less Ovarian Cancer

Gwinn ML, Lee NC, Rhodes PH, Layde PM, Rubin GL. Pregnancy, breastfeeding and oral contraceptives and the risk of epithelial ovarian cancer. J Clin Epidemiol 1990;43:559-68.

Hartge P, Schiffman MH, Hoover R, McGowan L, Lesher L, Norris HJ. A case control study of epithelial ovarian cancer. Am J Obstet Gynecol 1989;161:10-6.

Rosenblatt KA, Thomas DB, and the WHO collaborative study of neoplasia and steroid contraceptives. Lactation and the risk of epithelial ovarian cancer. International J Epidemiol 1993;22:192-7.

Schneider AP. Risk factor for ovarian cancer. N Engl J Med. 1987 Aug 20;317(8):508-9.

[top] References: Less Uterine Cancer

Brock KE et al. Sexual, reproductive and contraceptive risk factors for carcinoma-in-situ of the uterine cervix in Sydney. Med J Aust. 1989 Feb 6;150(3):125-30.

[top] References: Less Endometrial Cancer

Petterson B, Hans-Olov A, Berström R, Johansson EDB. Menstruation span-a time-limited risk factor for endometrial carcinoma. Acta Obstet Gynecol Scand 1986;65:247-55.

Rosenblatt KA, Thomas DB, and the WHO collaborative study of neoplasia and steroid contraceptives. Prolonged Lactation and endometrial cancer. Int J Epidemiol 1995;24:499-503.

[top] References: Less Osteoporosis

Osteoporosis: Reduced risk with nursing? by Debbi Donovan, IBCLC

Osteoporosis by Kathryn Orlinsky, PhD

See Calcium for more information and references.

[top] References: Less Rheumatoid Arthritis

Karlson EW, Mandl LA, Hankinson SE, Grodstein F. Do breast-feeding and other reproductive factors influence future risk of rheumatoid arthritis? Results from the Nurses' Health Study. Arthritis Rheum. 2004 Nov;50(11):3458-67.

[top] References: Less Breast Cancer (breastfed as child)

Barba M, et al. Premenopausal women who were heavier than average at birth or had not been breastfed as infants appear to be at increased risk for developing breast cancer. Reported at the American Association for Cancer Research 2005 annual meeting in Anaheim, CA.

Freudenheim JL et al. Exposure to breastmilk in infancy and the risk of breast cancer. Epidemiology. 1994 May;5(3):324-31.

[top]
References: Less Breast Cancer (mother)

Collaborative Group on Hormonal Factors in Breast Cancer. Breast cancer and breastfeeding: collaborative reanalysis of individual data from 47 epidemiological studies in 30 countries, including 50302 women with breast cancer and 96973 women without the disease. Lancet. 2002 Jul 20; 360(9328): 187-95.

Furberg H, Newman B, Moorman P, Millikan R. Lactation and breast cancer risk. Int J Epidemiol 1999;28:396-402.

Ing R, Ho JHC, Petrakis NL. Unilateral breastfeeding and breast cancer. Lancet July 16, 1997;124-27.

Jernstrom H, et al. Breast-feeding and the risk of breast cancer in BRCA1 and BRCA2 mutation carriers. J Natl Cancer Inst. 2004 Jul 21;96(14):1094-8.

Layde PM, Webster LA, Baughman AL, Wingo PA, Rubin GL, Ory HW and the cancer and steroid hormone study group. The independent associations of parity, age at first full term pregnancy, and duration of breastfeeding with the risk of breast cancer. J Clin Epidemiol 1989;42:963-73.

Lee SY, Kim MT, Kim SW, Song MS, Yoon SJ. Effect of lifetime lactation on breast cancer risk: A Korean Women's Cohort Study. Int J Cancer. 2003 Jun 20;105(3):390-3.

McTiernan A, Thomas DB. Evidence for a protective effect of lactation on risk of breast cancer in young women. Am J Epidemiol 1986;124:353-74.

Newcomb PA, Storer BE, Longnecker MP, Mittendorf R, Greenberg ER, Clapp RW, et al. Lactation and a reduced risk of premenopausal breast cancer. N Eng J Med 1994;330:81-7

Reuter KL, Baker SP, Krolikowski FJ. Risk factors for breast cancer in women undergoing mammography. Am J Radiol 1992;158:273-8.

Romieu I, Hernández-Avila M, Lazcano E, Lopez L, Romero-Jaime R. Breast cancer and lactation history in Mexican women. Am J Epidemiol 1996;143:543-52.

Siskind V, Schofield F, Rice D, Bain C. Breast cancer and breastfeeding: results from an Australian case-control study. Am J Epidemiol 1989;130:229-36.

Tao S-C, Yu MC, Ross RK, Xiu K-W. Risk factors for breast cancer in Chinese women of Beijing. Int J Cancer 1988;42:495-98.

United Kingdom National Case-Control Study Group. Breastfeeding and risk of breast cancer in young women. Br Med J 1993;307:17-20.

Yoo K-Y, Tajima K, Kuroishi T, Hirose K, Yoshida M, Miura S, Murai H. Independent protective effect of lactation against breast cancer: a case-control study in Japan. Am J Epidemiol 1992;135:726-33.

Yuan J-M, Yu MC, Ross RK, Gao Y-T, Henderson BE. Risk factors for breast cancer in Chinese women in Shanghai. Cancer Res 1988;58:99-104.

Zheng T et al. Lactation and breast cancer risk: a case-control study in Connecticut. Br J Cancer 2001 Jun;84(11):1472-6.

Zheng T et al. Lactation reduces breast cancer risk in Shandong Province, China. Am J Epidemiol 2000 Dec 15;152(12):1129-35.

[top] References: Diabetes - Decreased Insulin Requirements

Davies HA et al. Insulin requirements of diabetic women who breast feed. BMJ. 1989 May 20;298(6684):1357-8.

[top] References: Mother's Weight loss

Butte NF, Garza C. Anthropometry in the appraisal of lactation performance among well-nourished women. pp. 61-67 in M Hamish and AS Goldman, eds Human Lactation 2: Maternal and Environmental Factors. Plenum Press, New York.

Butte NF, Garza C, Stuff JE, Smith EO, Nichols BL. Effect of maternal diet and body composition on lactational performance. Am J Clin Nutr. 1984 Feb;39(2):296-306.

Dewey KG, Heinig MJ, Nommsen LA. Maternal weight-loss patterns during prolonged lactation. Am J Clin Nutr 1993;58:162-6.

Heinig MJ, Nommsen LA, Dewey KG. Lactation and postpartum weight loss. FASEB J 1990;4:362 (abstract).

Heinig MJ et al. Lactation and postpartum weight loss. Mechanisms Regulating Latation and Infant Nutrient Utilization 1992;30:397-400.

Kramer FM et al. Breast-feeding reduces maternal lower-body fat. J Am Diet Assoc. 1993 Apr;93(4):429-33.

Manning-Dalton C, Allen LH. The effects of lactation on energy and protein consumption, postpartum weight change and body composition of well nourished North American women. Nutr Res 1983;3:293-308.

Ohlin A, Rossner S. Maternal body weight development after pregnancy. Int J Obes 1990 Feb;14(2):159-73.

[top]


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## TanyaS (Jun 24, 2003)

The World Health Organization recommends breastfeeding for _at least_ two years and however long after that mother and baby are comfortable.

http://www.who.int/child-adolescent-..._exclusive.htm

Two years can seem like a very long time to someone nursing a young infant. I haven't read all the posts. I read some of the early ones and some at the end. Sorry if I'm repeating anything. Make yourself small goals and when you get there reassess your feelings and what's in the best interests of the baby and make another goal.

It is entirely possible to get pregnant while nursing without sacrificing the nursing relationship before your child is two. My daughter will be 21 months when #3 arrives this summer. There are things you can do to increase fertility while nursing if you find you are not ovulating when you are ready to ttc. Cross that bridge when you get there. I was nursing my son when I was ready to ttc my second. I started ovulating when we weaned from nursing at night. That's all it took for my fertility to return. It was quite a different situation conceiving #3 as my cycles had returned sooner for some strange reason.

Some mothers wean during pregnancy, others don't. There's not a right or wrong answer for that one. It's one each of us has to make after reading as much info as we can on the subject. I found the book _Adventures in Tandem Nursing_ to be very informative and it had not only mother's stories, but the most recent research on nursing while pregnant and tandem nursing. It really helped me make my decision for both. My son weaned while pregnant so I didn't have to decide on the tandem nursing. Right now, dd is still nursing and it remains to be seen what will happen with that. I am not certain how I feel about it, but I will cross that bridge when I get there.


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

Just wanted to add that I agree with you in a way, caedmyn. If you didn't have an adequate diet (i.e. someone who is malnourished and very underweight) then there might be some issues with nursing through pregnancy- pre-e, things like that. BUT with an adequate diet (increased calorie and nutrient intake) there really shouldn't be a problem. If you do decide to have another baby and feel that your little one isn't ready to wean, just make sure you are taking good care of yourself and eating enough. There should be plenty of nutrition to go around no matter what viewpoint you take if you do that.


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## Dido (Jan 7, 2006)

Reading this thread, I find Caedmyn's posts to be well-composed and respectful. Some people have responded very nicely and helpfully. Others have been contemptuous and hostile. I don't know who is right on the issue of whether nursing during pregnancy puts fetal health at risk, although I am usually inclined to trust La Leche. But regardless of who is right, I think a greater effort could be made to respond respectfully to those with whom we disagree.

I originally planned to BF for a year. After being on MDC since DD's birth, I am now reconsidering and thinking about going longer. Posts that encourage me in this direction are those that discuss and celebrate the benefits of extended breastfeeding in a rational manner. Posts that do NOT encourage me are those that make it seem that those promoting this choice are intolerant and have an ax to grind. In general, MDC is so supportive and informative. But sometimes there is a judgmental tinge that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. A mother who breastfeeds for a year is still doing far, far more for her child than the vast majority. Let's celebrate that.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I haven't seen anyone have a problem with her weaning at a year. It is her body. She can wean when she wants. I am nursing through pregnancy, but it is not for everyone. What people have aproblem with is her spreading blatantly incorrect and false information, and possibly scaring pregnant women who are nursing, etc.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrklynMama*
Others have been contemptuous and hostile. I

Which posts are you referring to? I haven't seen that. I see disagreement but not hostility.


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## turtlemama77 (Jul 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrklynMama*
Reading this thread, I find Caedmyn's posts to be well-composed and respectful. Some people have responded very nicely and helpfully. Others have been contemptuous and hostile. I don't know who is right on the issue of whether nursing during pregnancy puts fetal health at risk, although I am usually inclined to trust La Leche. But regardless of who is right, I think a greater effort could be made to respond respectfully to those with whom we disagree.

I originally planned to BF for a year. After being on MDC since DD's birth, I am now reconsidering and thinking about going longer. Posts that encourage me in this direction are those that discuss and celebrate the benefits of extended breastfeeding in a rational manner. Posts that do NOT encourage me are those that make it seem that those promoting this choice are intolerant and have an ax to grind. In general, MDC is so supportive and informative. But sometimes there is a judgmental tinge that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. A mother who breastfeeds for a year is still doing far, far more for her child than the vast majority. Let's celebrate that.

I certainly have tried very hard to be respectful on this thread. I have no issues with anything other than the misinformation about breastfeeding while pregnant, which I felt was important to correct. Honestly, I haven't really noticed any posts on this thread that have been judgmental or disrespectful.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caedmyn*

It always amazes me when someone who is willing to go against the mainstream in one area (such as extended breast feeding) is completely closed minded to anything that goes against the mainstream in another area. But I guess I should know to expect it, and there's always the chance that just one person will be interested enough to actually research for themselves.


Who here is closeminded to something that goes against the mainstream? Breastfeeding during pregnancy and tandem nursing definitely goes against the mainstream. For sure.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrklynMama*
Reading this thread, I find Caedmyn's posts to be well-composed and respectful. Some people have responded very nicely and helpfully. Others have been contemptuous and hostile. I don't know who is right on the issue of whether nursing during pregnancy puts fetal health at risk, although I am usually inclined to trust La Leche. But regardless of who is right, I think a greater effort could be made to respond respectfully to those with whom we disagree.


Respectfully, it doesn't matter how well composed & polite Caedmyn's posts are- if they are claiming false information to be true, then we, the long time members of Mothering Message Board, who have nursed babies for 3,4,5 years, who are LLLLeaders, who care if even ONE pregnant woman reads Caedmyn's words & *unnecessarily* weans her little one... WE have a right to speak up. I don't see where anyone was less than respectful.

Caedmyn said:

Quote:

I am planning on BFing for at least a year...I posted simply because I am a bit conflicted as to what to do, and since I know there are people elsewhere on mothering that have similar views nutrition-wise, I guess I thought some of those same people might be on this board, also...my mistake. I guess I also should have read a few more of the posts here to determine what the prevailing opinion on this board is and not bothered posting anything that didn't fully agree with that opinion.
I would like to know of anyone else on Mothering who believes as you do- that when a pregnant woman nurses her toddler, the woman is the first in line nutritionally. I have never seen anyone else here even come close to implying such nonsense. I don't know anyone in my life who believes that, actually. I thought it was common knowledge that the fetus gets first dibs, then the toddler, then mama.

I don't think you have to only post in line with prevailing opinion- but you really should look at where you are. Mothering is DEFINITELY pro breastfeeding. Tandem nursing, or nursing while pregnant, is not seen as weird or dangerous here, so of course when posters come along implying as much, we are going to get up in arms.


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## Rockies5 (May 17, 2005)

This is fairly humorous to me. I have had all of my children about 2 years apart. There have been no problems except the stretch marks.

I wouldn't take the time away from your precious babe wondering or arguing about this.

Just enjoy it while it lasts, we have no promises for tomorrow.


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## LolaK (Jan 8, 2006)

caedmyn said:


> _I have to disagree with those who are saying that the babe in utero gets their nutrition first--the research I have done indicates that the mother gets their nutrition first and the babe has to take what is left. I know this is not what most doctors will tell you or the traditional view, but when you really research it that is what actually happens. It makes sense if you stop and think about it--the mother is naturally the stronger party so it is God's way of making sure the one who is more likely to survive survives if only one can._
> QUOTE]
> 
> Can you tell me where you found this info? I am trying to decide about ttc and weaning is not an option for me. Everything I have read seems to uphold the idea that a fetus will be taken care of first so I would be interested in the opposing viewpoint.
> ...


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## Peri Patetic (Feb 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caedmyn*
That being said, I have read abstracts for some of the studies listed (not sure if that is the same as a summary that somebody else referred to). It is virtually impossible to find the whole text of any study unless you either find a book that it has been published in or you pay to subscribe to the sites that list the full text, so I have to be content with the abstracts. I have also read a book by Dr (an actual MD, not a dentist) Tom Brewer, who did a great deal of research (he actually ran the studies) on nutrition and pregnancy. I trust that his conclusions based on his own research are accurate.

Yes, abstracts = summaries. It is not hard to find the studies, I do it all the time. One has only to go to a good-sized university library to look them up -- they are generally published in journals, not books, and most of the ones I saw in that list of references are large, mainstream publications that should be readily found. If one does not live near a university, it is still possible to get the journals and articles (interlibrary loan, or through PubMed's Loansome Doc program) if sufficiently motivated. It is _imperative_ to read original studies if one truly wants to make informed decisions based on research. Abstracts are simply not a substitute; sometimes the abstract will contradict the actual study.

And for the record, although I think Weston Price is a crackpot overall, there is some good research which parallels some of his ideas on nutrition and diet. The information offered about breastfeeding, however, is complete nonsense.


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## Pynki (Aug 19, 2002)

I think we also need to consider the TIME of Weston PRice. 1930's and 1940's. You know. When only the poorest of the poor breastfed at all? Completely possible that the man's information isn't as scientifically advanced as the information we have now? It takes 10 minutes to check hemaglobin these days. How long did it take then?

Every year they find new componants to breastmilk. Componants that aren't found any other baby ready foods.


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Making breastmilk is as nutritionally demanding as making blood. Yes, there are more demands on the mother's body to produce milk. There are also extra demands made to menstruate and to gestate (as compared to men).

The main extra requirements on a woman's body to menstruate, gestate and lactate is to get plenty of iron rich foods, protein, calcium and water. A balanced (not necc perfect) diet, and a good vitamin/mineral supplement are available to most Western women.

If you do not eat well, as pg women in the mid 20th century often were told not to by their drs, in a sadly misguided effort to have small babies (and before tobacco research was done, they would smoke instead of eating), you can suffer anemia and calcium loss. Women (my mother included) were expected to faint often and lose a tooth per pregnancy. Now we know much more about nutrition.

As other posters have said, and this is backed up by research as available on kellymom.com and lalecheleague.org, your milk decreases greatly in the middle trimester anyway and does not require much if anything from your body to make it. Colstrum starts to be produced in the 3rd trimester in tiny amts.

The larger amts of milk being made if you are lactating while pg in the first trimester are not going to interfere with the development of the embryo/fetus, b/c that grain of rice or bean sized embryo does not really require that much extra nutrition from your body to develop normally at that time. If it did, women would not be puking up a storm yet produce full sized full term healthy babies 9 mos later! LOL


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

I just read the Weston Price review of the Womanly Art of Breastfeeding's nutritional information. It is inaccurate on many points.

Quote:

Nursing mothers should cut back on animal fats and eat more plant-based proteins, they say. "Any fat that is solid at room temperature (butter, margarine, vegetable shortening) should be eaten in moderation," is their advice, even though butter is an important source of nutrients and the trans fats in margarine and vegetable shortening are really bad news for the developing infant.
Most people in the US eat too much fat. That is why we are increasingly overweight. Surely the reviewer, who believes in Nourishing Traditions, is aware of this. The WAB does not recommend cutting out all fat, just using it in moderation. LLL recommends a whole foods diet, which would prefer butter over transfats in margarine and other solid "shortenings" such as Crisco and lard.

more from the review:

Quote:

Nursing women should also avoid salt, they say, even though salt is vital for the development of the baby's brain and nervous system.
Actually the WAB says to "reduce" salt intake (as compared to typical Western dietary use, such as one full of processed foods) not to avoid it altogether. That is a ridiculous and false charge.

LLL recommends a varied whole foods diet, low in processed foods, chemical additives, saturated fat, white flour and sugar. It does not recommend a vegetarian diet per se, but points out the typical Westerner eats too much fatty beef.

One more false charge:

Quote:

As for supplementation, only brewers yeast and B12 for vegetarians are recommended.
Actual text from the WAB:

Quote:

Your dr may advise supplementary vitamins and minerals for you during your pregnancy, particularly iron, to replenish the stores from which your baby us building up his own suply of iron to carry him through at leas the first half year of his life. During the time you are bfing, your dr may suggest you keep taking them...a vegan [should at least take] a b12 supplement.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

*If anyone is interested in a much larger thread with a great deal of research and quotes from studies showing that a deficient diet produces deficient breastmilk, see this thread:*
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=343188

Also there was a recent Mothering magazine article on the Myths of Breastfeeding that mentioned that diet is essential to good quality milk.

There is refined processed salt and then there is sea salt, with minerals intact. They are very different. Processed salt does not combine with the blood properly and causes a great deal of problems.

Saturated fats are not why Americans are overwieght. Saturated fat and beef consumption has gone way way down compared to many years ago. It's the processed foods, white flour, sugar, unhealthy vegetable fats and fake fats. Saturated fats are excellent for the immune system and essential for the utilization of minerals. And raw fats such as raw butter and raw cream contains the enzyme lipase that burns it off so it is not stored as fat. Our modern processing of food has totally gone downhill in terms of how it behaves in our body and our health is paying the price.

Coconut oil is very saturated and *excellent* for bf'ing moms and the immune system. It increases the MCT's in your milk and hence the immune activity. It is anti fungal, anti bacterial and anti viral. It is also the most easily digestible oil and therefore is rarely stored as fat.

American women have the lowest DHA in their breastmilk. Interestingly enough, if you eat grass fed meat and dairy, their meat and milk products contain substantial amounts of omega 3s and DHA. And their fats contain CLA, a special type of fat that increases metabolism in humans.

Our health is greatly dependent on the food we eat and sadly, our grocery stores across the nation are filled with food that is seriously deficient in essential nutrients because of the way it is grown and produced. The way we've modernized our food production has greatly effected how our bodies have responded to this franken-food with degenerative diseases.

More about all this information, www.westonaprice.org









The Weston Price foundation is pro breastfeeding but has developed recipes for several homemade formulas because they are a nutritional foundation that responded to people's needs. Sally Fallon the president of WAPF nursed all her children but still had problems with low milk supply and was probably the reason for the modern day research on homemade formula recipes. It includes instructions to use a LactAid and tips for successful breastfeeding at bottom of page below references:
http://www.westonaprice.org/children/breastfeed.html

Weston A Price, DDS himself, as far as I know, never ever espoused formula in his research of the diets and history of thousands of native people. He constantly talked about galactogues (I think quinoa was a new one I learned from his research) and extended breastfeeding in his book "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration".
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditio...ry_wisdom.html

Winkipedia, like Quackwatch, shouldn't be thought of as the final answer on health and nutrition questions!!


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

DaryLLL, what is the current LLL position on supplementary DHA's?

Personally I am very dismayed that LLL doesn't strongly warn against trans fats/hydrogenated fats in the mother's diet. Because if you eat them, they appear on your breastmilk. Even the FDA has said there is no safe level of trans fat consumption. And research has shown significant cellular damage from them, because they are assimilated into the cells. Now what mama wants their babies bodies (and brains) to be built with trans fats! Even formula doesn't contain them!


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

And Caedmyn, sorry to sidetrack this discussion a bit but re: your original question







...

Nurse as long as you can. I weaned DS for health issues in us both when he was 26 months and I wish I didn't. BM is liquid gold and essential for the development of the immune system.

I think one year is giving a child the short stick, and two years should absolutely be the minimum. Nursing longer is essential if food allergies or other immune disorders are present. Good luck to you.









Nutritional stores do need rebuilding, especially vitamin A and minerals. From my research a 3 yr. spacing is much better.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caedmyn*
It makes sense if you stop and think about it--the mother is naturally the stronger party so it is God's way of making sure the one who is more likely to survive survives if only one can.

With the mention of God's way, you are already taking science out of the equation. If it's a religious belief, fine, no point for debate or research. If it is not, I would suggest you read the studies yourself rather than relying on the Weston-Price's interpretation and presentation of the data.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

It is the most illogical thing I have ever read. Like I and DaryLLL pointed out, women suffer from hyperemisis, yet deliver full term, healthy babies.


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## plantmama (Jun 24, 2005)

I just wanted to say that the Weston Price site was put together by Sally Fallon who had trouble breastfeeding herself (and unfortunately has a bone to pick with LLL or someone). Many of Weston Price's findings were/ are very interesting re nutrition. I don't think he had anything to do with the articles in question.
Also Sally Fallon doesn't promote regular formula, she promotes making your own homemade formula which has many strange ingredients etc... Glad I can breastfeed!
Also I think it is great to promote good nutrition while breastfeeding (which the site does), because a lack of nutrition can definately take a toll on breastfeeding women. I'm pretty sure postpartum depression has been linked to vitamin deficiencies in many cases. So, those articles are pretty far off, but make the point that eating well, and eating plenty of fat, protein, and well prepared food will amplify the health of mother and child. I love the whole nourishing traditions concept- just think that Sally Fallon seems pretty biased and not very pro bf.
Sorry to continue the derailment of this thread.


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## plantmama (Jun 24, 2005)

Sorry JaneS, I missed your post. Much more articulate than mine.


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS*
And research has shown significant cellular damage from them, because they are assimilated into the cells. Now what mama wants their babies bodies (and brains) to be built with trans fats! Even formula doesn't contain them!


I'm all for reducing/eliminating transfats as well as environmental contaminants that pollute our food, our breastmilk *and all animal fats* even grass fed beef and raw milk. And even what you call 'deficient' breastmilk is still "liquid gold" compared to formula. Even despite all the pollutants and weird things we eat.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Only had time to read the first and fifth pages of this thread so I'm sure I missed a lot in the middle but to respond to the OP -

I planned to nurse dd1 for 12 months. I did but then it just didn't seem like the right time to wean - she was teething and starting to walk and had a cold and we had a few weddings coming up (I liked knowing she'd be quiet during the ceremony if we were nursing). So we kept going. At 15 months I started thinking **I** was ready to stop. So we weaned over the next month, finishing when she was 16 months.

I don't know about the first site but I am all about blueribbonbaby. I followed Dr. Brewer's nutrition plan during my pregnancy and never felt better.

Sibling spacing is a very personal thing. We repeated the spacing between me and my younger sister (four years) with our dd1 and dd2, as it worked so well for us. Dd2 and dd3 are 2.75 years apart and that has been fine for them, harder for me. I have found two and three years old to be challenging ages to parent so choosing to TTC then was hard - I had my hands full already! With dd2, we just went for it as I knew I wanted that four year spacing but it was odd to TTC for a "spacing" instead of a true readiness.

I understand your feelings (as much as I've read on the first and fifth pages here) about not nursing while pregnant; I felt the same way. It won't be popular here on MDC but you are not the only one.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten*

I understand your feelings (as much as I've read on the first and fifth pages here) about not nursing while pregnant; I felt the same way. It won't be popular here on MDC but you are not the only one.


Lots of people here have said nursing through pregnancy or tandem nursing is not for everyone. I know I have on several occasions. People are taking issue with her spreading blatantly incorrect info and possibly scaring other mamas into weaning whod on't want to wean.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa*
Lots of people here have said nursing through pregnancy or tandem nursing is not for everyone. I know I have on several occasions. People are taking issue with her spreading blatantly incorrect info and possibly scaring other mamas into weaning whod on't want to wean.


Yep~ I have never nursed while pregnant. I have never tandem nursed. However, I know if I did, I would not be endangering either my nursling or my babe in utero.

After Joe was born (by emergency csection) I had SO much trouble eating. Some said it was from the anesthetic- literally _nothing_ tasted good to me. For two weeks I ate canned peaches & drank apricot nectar, choking down the occasional scrambled eggs. I weighed about 100 pounds at that time. Joe lost weight in the hospital, like all babies do, but he was back up OVER his birth weight before we left the hospital. He gained weight so fast. He doubled his birth weight in a matter of weeks. My milk was perfect for him even though my body was not letting me eat much of anything.


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## TanyaS (Jun 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS*
Personally I am very dismayed that LLL doesn't strongly warn against trans fats/hydrogenated fats in the mother's diet. Because if you eat them, they appear on your breastmilk. Even the FDA has said there is no safe level of trans fat consumption. And research has shown significant cellular damage from them, because they are assimilated into the cells. Now what mama wants their babies bodies (and brains) to be built with trans fats! Even formula doesn't contain them!

LLL's philosophy on nutrition is "Good nutrition means eating a well-balanced and varied diet of foods in as close to their natural state as possible." Foods in their natural state do not contain trans fats, so their nutrition philosophy has always recommended reduction of trans fats before it was the latest thing to eliminate from the American diet.

There is one formula that processes their proteins by hydrogenation supposedly to make it 'easier to digest.' So I wonder if the trans fat label will come up with anything there when the requirements to add it to the nutrition label take effect? Until then we don't really know which formulas contain trans fats. The 'fat' in formula comes from high fructose corn syrup and that's not good, trans fat or no.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Actually HFCS is a carbohydrate source. As far as I know the fat in formula is milk fat, so it would be highly saturated but contain no trans-fats.

I do agree that women should be educated about fatty acids in their diet and the effect on BM. However I also agree that the "worst" BM is superior to the "best" formula by a long, long shot - trans-fats and all. After all, the study that showed that BM confers a higher IQ was not done on a self-selected category of moms who ate perfect diets. The 'BF' mothers who participated in the study (they were actually pumping for preemies) were presumably eating the Standard American Diet (which has been high in trans-fat for generations...Crisco, anyone?). And yet their milk STILL far outperformed formula. That was a great study because since the milk and formula were being provided via tube or bottle to preemies who were all in the same hospital environment there was no bias towards the non-nutritional aspects of breastfeeding or the possibility of a better home environment in the BF households.

That said, I don't eat trans-fats (or I try as much as possible to avoid them) because it just icks me out to think of DD getting them through my BM. I don't buy everything the Weston Price foundation says about nutrition but I do agree with some things, including the need for nutrient-rich foods (including minerals) and lots of healthy fats. I focus on the fats in my diet since I know that no matter what I eat the protein and carbs in my BM will remain pretty much the same, but the fatty acid profile will depend on my diet.

As for the OP's question. I worry about this too - the whole weaning thing. But I'm committed to nursing until age 2 and then I'll re-evaluate. Between ages 1 and 2 I will probably be doing some weaning things like nightweaning and encouraging solids, asking DD to wait if I need to do something before nursing, etc. I don't think I'm a CLW person all the way, but I want to do as much as I can. I value BF so much and I'm so glad that DD and I worked through our initial difficulties!


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
Actually HFCS is a carbohydrate source. As far as I know the fat in formula is milk fat, so it would be highly saturated but contain no trans-fats.

I do agree that women should be educated about fatty acids in their diet and the effect on BM. However I also agree that the "worst" BM is superior to the "best" formula by a long, long shot - trans-fats and all. After all, the study that showed that BM confers a higher IQ was not done on a self-selected category of moms who ate perfect diets. The 'BF' mothers who participated in the study (they were actually pumping for preemies) were presumably eating the Standard American Diet (which has been high in trans-fat for generations...Crisco, anyone?). And yet their milk STILL far outperformed formula. That was a great study because since the milk and formula were being provided via tube or bottle to preemies who were all in the same hospital environment there was no bias towards the non-nutritional aspects of breastfeeding or the possibility of a better home environment in the BF households.

Good points.
Also, about the HF corn syrup, corn is one of the most monocultured, highly genetically modified crops out there, and then to get the syrup it goes through all kinds of processing. That's one of the main ingredients in formula, isn't it?


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## CathMac (Jan 10, 2006)

Caedmyn,
Wow, my head is spinning. Thanks for the thought provoking thread and for daring to challenge the status quo. While I don't agree with your conclusions I do commend your going off the beaten track in an effort to fully inform yourself. Having said that, sometimes you need to turn around and forge your own path or get back on track, and I think that is the case here. Assuming the Weston Price Foundation studies are empirically valid, I think the logical conclusion is that pregnant and tandem nursing Moms should eat better, not that they should stop nursing prematurely. I think eliminating "bad" fats, increasing healthy fats, and reducing what I call "junky carbs" is a good start and would be consistent with what the Weston Price Foundation would recommend.

For the average American woman the questions of whether or not a Mom in a third world country can produce adequate milk for her baby, or whether an unborn baby or nursling gets the nutrients before Mommy does, are red herrings. The real question is whether or not she is willing --or perhaps able--to eat healthier.

I must say though I am intrigued by one conclusion in particular of the Weston Price Foundation regarding the ability to increase the fat content of human milk. This plays into my own personal bias and my one brief struggle against "conventional breastfeeding wisdom". Most of the widely published information on fat content in human milk (including a Kellymom article) suggests that you can improve the quality of fat through diet but not increase the quantity. If my reading of the Weston Price Foundation literature is accurate it suggests that poor diet decreases fat content (which is obviously bad for babies) and that with better diet the fat content can be increased.

For breastfeeding Moms with any sort of sugar to fat ratio issues such as: Hindmilk / Foremilk imbalance, Oversupply, baby's Secondary Lactose Intolerance, etc., the ability to increase fat content could be critical. I had one or more of these issues and I struggled for weeks and months to maintain the breastfeeding relationship; the colicky behavior was brutal. I was nursing DD1 on one side for up to 4 - 6 hours at a time; which helped a little. I finally found some obscure research "abstracts" suggesting that it was possible to increase fat content. I cut back on the "junky" carbs and increased the healthy fats in my diet and things seemed to improve. Of course I readily acknowledge that since mother's milk evolves as the baby grows anyway (according to "conventional wisdom") the improvement may have been coincidental.

Imagine my surprise when I tried to share my newfound insight (on an entierely different board, not Mothering.com) and was met with resistance, conventional wisdom, and the status quo. It surprised me primarily because there can be no harm in reducing the "junky carbs" and increasing healthy fats. I think the perceived harm, for diehard Lactivists, is that any additional special instructions on diet might deter some women from breastfeeding. Of course, my intention was to inform women who already were breastfeeding and were struggling with a particular issue I was familiar with.

Anywho, I've gone way off topic at this point. I just wanted to let you know that I admire your efforts to go beyond the status quo but I would encourage you to keep going, which may eventually mean circling around. The Weston Price Foundation my be well-intentioned with no obvious bias and some of their conclusions may be valid but that is no reason for the average breastfeedig Mom to cut nursing short. Which begs the question and leads me back to your original main question: how long should you keep going?

With DD1 I went into it having no idea of how long I might want to keep going. I asked every medical professional, LC and fellow LLL member where they thought you got the most "bang for the buck" so to speak. If I had believed I could get 90 percent of the benefit in 3 months I might have stopped there. Unfortunately, it is impossible to quantify. Eventually, like you, I settled on one year. That timeframe was re-inforced once I realized that DD1 was dairy intolerant and that weaning her onto a hypoallergenic formula could be difficult, time consuming, and expensive.

Her first birthday came and went. She is now 18 months old and I am about 26 weeks pregnant and despite a major dip in supply back in November she keeps going and I find myself hoping that when the colostrum kicks in she won't dislike the taste and will keep going. I happen to believe that there are nutritional, immunological, and psychosocial benefits to nursing beyond one year but, again, there is no way to quantify the benefits.

Since DD1 isn't getting much milk the whole diet issue is pretty much moot for me and I consider my dietary needs to be pretty much the same as any other pregnant woman. Having said that I could eat better and thanks to this thought provoking discussion I may be more motivated to do so if I see any signs that DD1 is getting any significant amount of colostrum. In any case, assuming DD1 is still nursing when DD2 arrives in June it will certainly be an issue then.
~Cath


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## Ammaarah (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
Actually HFCS is a carbohydrate source. As far as I know the fat in formula is milk fat, so it would be highly saturated but contain no trans-fats.

Actually, the fats in formula are from vegetables: *To mimic mothers' milkfat, infant formulas are made from a mixture of vegetable fats and oil blends such as palm olein, soy, coconut, and high-oleic sunflower oil.* http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/dec02/oil1202.htm

I have read the milk fat is sold to ice cream producers, but I don't have a source for that.

So formula could contain trans fats if it was made with hydrogenated oils, right?


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## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BamBam'sMom*
Also, how do you know you won't be able to get pregnant while nusing? I know someone who's cycle returned when her ebf baby was 3 months. That's rare, but I don't think that bf is an effective form of birth control after 6 months, especially not if your baby is starting solids.

DD was exclusively breastfed for one year. I got my period back at 4 months, ugh. At that point she was nursing every hour - hour and a half, even during the night. As an aside, she also got her first 2 teeth at 4 months, but the kid wouldn't touch solids until she was a year.


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## TanyaS (Jun 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
Actually HFCS is a carbohydrate source. As far as I know the fat in formula is milk fat, so it would be highly saturated but contain no trans-fats.

Cow's milk contains too much fat and proteins for a baby. So all the milk fat is removed. It is then added back in in the form of a blend of vegatable oils. I cannot locate my source, but I recall reading that HFCS is part of that blend. Here is a great article that describes it better than I can









http://www.todaysparent.com/baby/bre...807_101250_216

Also, in my search to find my original source (I really should keep track better), I was surprised to see a Weston Price article about HFCS come up. It says "Interestingly, although HFCS is used in many products aimed at children, it is not used in baby formula, even though it would probably save the manufactueres a few pennies for each can. Do the formula makers know something they aren't telling us?" http://www.westonaprice.org/motherlinda/cornsyrup.html

This statement alone is enough to make me question the validity of the site. All you have to do is read the ingredients list on a can of formula to see HFCS as an ingredient. I would be very wary of other information on this site. That is a blatant lie.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

You need to read many more articles on the Weston Price Nutritional Foundaton site Tanya, to make that claim. There are many contributors to this HUGE site and an incredible amount of peer reviewed research studies referenced for their conclusions. And like any organization, I would encourage any mama, to pick and choose what to believe and what to discard.

http://www.westonaprice.org/sitemap.html

*And that article is mostly correct... I can totally see her point b/c the standard formulas that capture 90% of the market do contain Lactose for the carb content, and not High Fructose Corn Syrup.* This mimics the lactose in BM, except we all know BM lactose is a specific kind of lactose that allows probiotics to proliferate in digestive tract, and therefore superior.

Here are the ingredients listings (I didn't post vitamins and minerals)

*Enfamil Lipil Milk-Based Formula With Iron*
Reduced Minerals Whey, Nonfat Milk, Vegetable Oil (Palm Olein, Soy, Coconut and High Oleic Sunflower Oils), *Lactose*...

*Nestle Good Start Supreme DHA & ARA Infant Formula with Iron*
Enzymatically Hydrolyzed Reduced Minerals Whey Protein Concentrate (From cow's milk), Vegetable Oils (Palm Olein,Soy, Coconut, High-Oleic Safflower), *Lactose*...

*Bright Beginnings*
*Lactose*, Nonfat Milk, Palm Oil (or Palm Olein), Whey Protein Concentrate, High Oleic Oil (Safflower or Sunflower), Coconut Oil, Soybean Oil

*Similac Advance*
(u)-D Nonfat Milk, *Lactose*, High Oleic Safflower Oil, Soy Oil, Coconut Oil, Whey Protein Concentrate...

Nutramigen, Prosobee, Pregestimil, Lactofree, the "hypoallergenic" formulas contain corn syrup.... but those are not as widely used by most FF. Alimentum is maltodextrin from corn and sugar.

In addition, Weston Price Foundation has done an extraordinary amount of work on the dangers of soy formula, including testifying before Congress. They are working to get soy formula banned because of the research they have done. Please don't tar and feather them without more knowledge.

Soy Alert
http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/index.html


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## TanyaS (Jun 24, 2003)

I must admit I didn't read every can of formula before I said that. My niece is not bf, and she stays with us one weekend a month. She was using nutramigen, and I remembered reading the label on it, and reading some other things online about the issue, although I don't recall where. Either way, formula companies DO use HFCS, just not in every formula. Also, some previous posters have also demonstrated grievances with some of the information being either shady or inaccurate. I only said that the info about HFCS on that link was a lie, not the entire site. Also, I said to be wary of other info because of the misinfo many are finding, in addition to what I found. It is very important to read critically, imo.

Some people also found some good info, and that is why I said 'wary' and not 'beware.' I never said that the site was invalid, by any means. Sorry for upsetting anyone as it was not my intention.


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

What is this thread about? Whether a "Weston Price" diet is compatible with bfing? What the components of artificial baby milk are? Whether tandem nursing is safe for the fetus? Whether one yr is long enough to breastfeed?

I'm confused.


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## turtlemama77 (Jul 29, 2005)

The OP was trying to decide how long to nurse based on her desire to TTC weighed against how long she feels a baby should nurse (a year, two years, etc)...correct me if I'm wrong, anyone!! In her wonderings, she stated something to the effect of not wanting to nurse during a pregnancy and gave what I would consider, based on my research, misinformation about the health and wellbeing of the unborn child. When asked where she got her information, she cited several websites, including the Weston Price one. I think the debate has been whether or not the information is from a valid source.

Does that help?


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## justmama (Dec 24, 2002)

In regard to the question posed by the original poster, I was this way as well when my Sara was first born. We had so many problems that I just gave myself a goal of 6 weeks, which would put her at her due date. When 6 weeks hit, I told myself I needed to keep going to another 6 weeks. And then I gave myself 6 months and then she didn't eat ANY solids at all(her choice, we offered) until 10 months and then she wouldn't even any meal until 12months. So I said I would stop at a year. She's now 14months and there's really NO way I could imagine not breastfeeding her. She nurses about 5 times a day and 3 times a night at least, combined with 2-3meals a day and a snack or two. She is pretty picky but what she DOES eat, she enjoys thoroughly. I haven't researched the question about who is first in line for nutrition but from personal experience, baby comes first no matter what. I say this because I am battling the weight issues. I cannot keep weight on while nursing to save my life. This is my second bf baby and I'm 5feet 5inches and down to 110lbs. I look good at 130lbs. I recently had surgery that didn't allow me to eat for a week and I lost 10lbs. My milk supply dropped a bit for a few days when i was dehydrated but quickly came back up and my Sara is getting everything she needs. She was a 34week preemie who weighed in at 5lbs 3oz and lost down to 4lbs 10oz. She's 14months old and weighs 21lbs. I've lost 40lbs in the last year and my body still struggles to keep weight on and she's flourishing and gaining weight well and meeting her milestones. I do understand your logic behind your reasoning why mama should come first nutritionally. Nature should provide for mama first and baby second to ensure that mama lives to take care of baby but in my experience, that does not seem to be accurate. I am a planner just like you but I think that we really need to just sit back and evaluate the situation once we reach our goals. I really thought I'd be compeltely done after her first birthday and want nothing to do with nursing. But that goal seemed completley arbitrary when it rolled around and I found myself looking towards 18months of nursing. Who knows? We may make it there and end up saying 2 years sounds like a good round number. I think you should enjoy that year and once you hit that goal, you should sit back and reevaluate and see where things stand. If you want to continue, DO SO! If you don't, start thinking about weaning and getting pregnant. I got AF back at 10months postpartum when Sara started eating solids. We are still nursing quite a bit but I do have AF. So you never know!

Meg


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Tanya, you didn't upset me one single bit, just trying to clear things up here.









Reading Weston Price's book and the information of the non profit WAPF changed my life and my family's life and my view of how crucial nutrients are as the raw building material of our children's bodies.

For example the thread in "Nutrition and Good Eating" I've been posting to about the crucial nature of vitamin A and its effect on development of birth defects.

One of the reasons for the recommendation to space children 3 years apart is to rebuild the mother's stores of vitamin A. Native people did this as a rule and it's one reason given for ebf to allow for larger spacing of children. Many societies would not allow marriage until both male and female were put on certain period of feeding with high vitamin A foods (natural preformed vitamin A found only in animal foods such as liver).

I'd hate to have anyone dismiss WAPF as a source of important and unique information based on lack of knowledge or hearsay.


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## liawbh (Sep 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS*
I'd hate to have anyone dismiss WAPF as a source of important and unique information based on lack of knowledge or hearsay.

Please don't assume that those who do not agree with Price are relying on "hearsay." It could also be due to doing their own research and coming to their own conclusion.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JaneS*

One of the reasons for the recommendation to space children 3 years apart is to rebuild the mother's stores of vitamin A. *Native people did this as a rule and it's one reason given for ebf to allow for larger spacing of children.* Many societies would not allow marriage until both male and female were put on certain period of feeding with high vitamin A foods (natural preformed vitamin A found only in animal foods such as liver).

Yikes! That's an awfully big generalization/stereotype there. "Native people"? Who? Native to where? "As a rule?" Doubt it.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Except I didn't hear research or well referenced arguments.

I have no problem with disagreement with Price or myself. Especially if they happen to be well thought out and researched so I can learn from them too.

The native people studied by Price included Swiss, Gaelic, Eskimos. Melanesians, Polynesians and Pacific Islanders (about a dozen different). Torres Strait Islanders, New Zealand Maori, Australian Aborigines, Peruvian Indians, North American/Canadian Indians (many different tribes), African tribes (15 different tribes). He studied both people totally isolated from modern world (in 1930s) following their native diets as well as modern people of the same ancestry to show that departing from the native diet was responsible for degenerative diseases.


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## Pynki (Aug 19, 2002)

True as that is... Isn't or couldn't it also be true that part of the reason for the child spacing was because the women of childbearing age didn't get a period every month? My understanding isn't just that they breastfed for more than 1 year or 2, but because of diet the women didn't menstruate every cycle- thereby decreasing the chances of being fertile or pregnancy.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

From G. T. Baden's book, "Among the Ibos of Nigeria":

Quote:

It is not only a matter of disgrace but an actual abomination, for an Ibo woman to bear children at shorter intervals than about three years... The belief prevails strongly that it is necessary for this interval to elapse in order to ensure the mother be able to recuperate her strength completely, and thus be in a thoroughly fit condition to bear another child. Should a second child be born within the prescribed period the theory is held that it must inevitably be weak and sickly, and its chances jeopardized.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Fascinating article updating Price's work and tying diet directly to connective tissue disorders (cleft palate, etc). This makes the crucial nature of diet very very real.

*Connective Tissue Disorders: The Overlaps and Links to Diet*

http://www.ctds.info/connective_disorders1.html


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pynki*
True as that is... Isn't or couldn't it also be true that part of the reason for the child spacing was because the women of childbearing age didn't get a period every month? My understanding isn't just that they breastfed for more than 1 year or 2, but because of diet the women didn't menstruate every cycle- thereby decreasing the chances of being fertile or pregnancy.

Australian Aborigines used herbs for contraception to promote child spacing. There are many examples of natives specifically planning it this way for a reason.


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## Mybabymommy (Mar 12, 2006)

I think it is too soon to be thinking the way you are. I know that as new moms we tend to want to plan and know and be incharge of everything....but honestly those things really take time and learing.

In a years time, you may be better prepared to know and understand your nursing relationship.

Breastfeeding is no guarentee to birthcontrol, and you may end up with a baby sooner than 2 years if you think it is









Why not wait awhile, and see how you and she like it. She herself may decide that a year is long enough, or you may decide that nursing through pregnancy and tandem nursing is the best for your family kwim?

Sarah







)


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## nicolena (Oct 10, 2005)

there is so much good info available on this thread--thank you!

to the op--it is such a hard decision, isn't it? it took me five years to have these babies, and i want more babies! my original bf goal was a year-ish (i didn't really know how long you were supposed to bf). but i had a lot of problems initially (having twins takes a lot out of you, and my diet was the traditional lowfat, lots of whole grains that was actually robbing me of nutrition). the problems turned out to be somewhat beneficial in that i've learned a lot. i soon updated my goal to two years (as per WHO), and then decided i wanted to clw. and as our nursing relationship developed and nursing became so much easier, i became more and more convinced i couldn't deny my babies my milk. see how it goes for you, but the longer you go, the better for your baby (as everyone has said). and you might just find you don't want to jeopardize that relationship (since milk can dry up in pregnancy--that was really what changed my mind. my girls'd flip if the milk was gone.)

in regards to the other issues that have come up--i used to have fantasies about nursing a third child while still nursing my twins (now 15 months). it seems easy enough. i'm sure i *could* do it, but given my age and what i've done to myself nutritionally (while by anyone's standards i was eating pretty healthily--tho some sugar and transfats), i think it is too risky. breastmilk is gold, but IT'S NOT MAGIC. in my case, i was following lll guidelines and trying to lose weight very slowly (doing less than what lll said). my girls were not on the charts weightwise. so i stopped dieting for awhile. i let them nurse all the time. i mean ALL THE TIME. they slept on my breasts (still do sometimes, tho this is fading). they were not on the charts weightwise. i talked to lc after lc; they all said the same thing--i was doing everything right; milk was coming out of me; the girls were meeting milestones; everything was fine. i felt something wasn't right, and (to make a long story short) i read nutrition and physical degeneration, found nourishing traditions, and the changes in me and my girls are astounding. i have no doubt it is due to a change in my/our diets. they are the substantial healthy breastfed babes i wanted, now that my body is getting enough nutrients for all of us.

i'm writing just to encourage anyone who's having a reaction to this idea that breastmilk isn't magic...Read nutrition and physical degeneration. i was skeptical through half of the book. then i thought the photos must be faked. (the wap website doesn't impress me visually, which made me doubt the info at first--but after reading n&pd, it makes sense.) and no one has anything to gain moneywise from what this guy is saying. it makes so much sense and it has changed my life significantly. i feel like i've joined a cult in terms of how i feel about food now. i respect it, and i respect the power it has over my body and over my children's bodies, and over the children i will try to wait a sensible amount of time to have (i agree with three years) so that they can be the healthiest babies i can make.

(Sorry i don't have time to edit or be more eloquent--but read the book! Fallon didn't write it, and her experiences shouldn't detract from Price's book.)


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## CountryMom2e (Apr 1, 2005)

I skimmed through the responses, but I just wanted to share my story.

I knew I wanted to nurse my son for at least a year. All of the research, everything I read... I knew I wanted to give him that gift and would do ALL that I could to do so.

As he neared a year, he was nowhere near ready to wean. He was eating 1-2 solid meals a day, and nursing 5-7 times a day. I didn't want to force wean him, but had never really thought about nursing a toddler. Plus I really wanted to TTC so our kids could be 2 years apart.

I kept nursing, wound up nightweaning DS at 14 mo, and guess what? At 15 mo my AF returned. He was still nursing 5 times a day at that point (we dropped the two night nursings). The first month I let my cycle just settle in. The second month I charted and we started TTC. The third month... same. The fourth month, I was pg. It took me a year of TTCing the first time around.

I wound up not weaning DS - but that is entirely your choice. He tapered off almost immediately after I got pregnant. He didn't like the change in my milk. He would still nurse, but less and less. When I was 6 wks pg, he cut back to three times a day. At 3 mo, he cut back to 1-2. Then at 4 mo pg, when he was 22 mo, he self-weaned. It wasn't hard to nurse and be pg except for the sensitivity the first few weeks. I also found it helped with m/s. However, I didn't drink enough water to compensate!

GL - I would not worry about weaning until after a year, and you can play it by ear then. You absolutely though can nurse and TTC, and then if you want, encourage weaning when you get pg. I know a lot of mamas who did get pg while nursing an older child.


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