# My sons witnessed animal abuse.



## quietmama (Dec 31, 2005)

**Warning: this post has details of animal abuse in it so please skip reading it if you feel it could be to upsetting.

I'm not sure if this is the appropriate spot for this post, so if not please feel free to move it.

I have three sons (Ages - 7, 5, and 3). We were visiting my parents at their home for about 4 days. They live in the middle of a national forest and have 45 acres. It is my sons heaven. They swim in the creek for hours, go hiking, watch the deer and elk, ride on the 4-wheeler with their grandparents, go fishing and many more fun activities. They love it there.

My parents are very different in philosophies than we are. They are very old fashioned, conservative and old school in their thinking. They think we're raising the boys in a hippy liberal household, which may be a little true. Overall though we just skip talking about sensitive subjects such as politics and religion and things seem to go smoothly.

So, to get to the point of this post. I went for a run yesterday morning. My step-dad has been "trapping" (which entails killing) ground squirrels because they have been digging up their lawn and digging under the fence of the garden. When I was gone for a run my step-dad took the boys out to check the traps. There was one trap with a squirrel caught in it and the squirrel was still alive.

Last night after leaving my parents house my two youngest boys mentioned to me that "Grandpa caught a squirrel that was still alive so he hit it over the head with a stick many times. The squirrels nose was bleeding. And then Grandpa threw it in the woods to feed the other animals."

Needless to say, I was horrified. I don't know what to do. My parents place is a place that we all love to be and not seeing my Mom, for me, is not an option. My step-dad is very stubborn, especially when it comes to "his ways" and so he's not about to switch things up for me.

How do you communicate with children about this? Especially when it's the one person that they look up to the most. My step-dad is not going to change his ways, I know that. He thinks that I'm crazy that I don't want the boys to learn to hunt and that I don't want them looking through his magazines on Guns and Artillery.

We have a dog at home and eight chickens. We've been working on teaching the boys compassion for all living things. How do you work through something like this? I'm sad to say that I didn't feel like the boys were too horrified by their Grandpa's behavior. They look up to him so much that I fear they think this is OK to treat animals this way.

Anyone have any ideas or thoughts?


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

I don't have any advice, but I wanted to say that I'm really sorry your boys had to see that.

I wouldn't let them go with your step dad to check on his 'traps' though.


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## mommariffic (Mar 18, 2009)

Was he hitting the squirrel to put it out of it's misery?

I'm totally against trapping animals [unless it's for a food source] but I know that when an animal is wounded I would put it out of it's misery. If that was the case, I'd probably explain that


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## momma_unlimited (Aug 10, 2008)

I don't think either your family nor your step dad need to change- can't you just ask that he not involve your kids in activities where animals will suffer?

It doesn't sound like you directly told him you didn't want your kids to see it and he did it anyway, you know?

Ultimately, you can't make your kids have the same values you do; that in itself wouldn't be compassion for all living things (so your kids may not believe hunting is *wrong*, but they can know that it is not permitted on your property or while they are living under your roof, if you feel so passionately about it); so to explain to them your perspective on what your step-father did, and to tell the kids you love and admire him but there are some things he may do which you don't love or admire, seems to be the only thing you can do, right?


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## mumkimum (Nov 14, 2006)

I think that what you can do about the situation is just, when you talk about it again with them, say something to the effect of "You know, grandpa could have found humane traps for the squirrels that didn't hurt or kill them. That is what I would have done if they were bothering my garden."

Maybe you've dealt with predators or pest yourselves. Point out that these things can be done differently, and you really think there's a lot more benefit to treating animals humanely.

I think that kids can end up thinking it's okay for certain other people to do things (like grandpa) that they wouldn't do themselves or really think are okay either. So I wouldn't put that on this situation - I doubt this incident, or even future similar ones, would make your kids think it's okay to do this to animals. But just understand that this is what grandpa sometimes does to animals. . . sorta different.

I'd be pretty shocked/horrified myself though, knowing something like that happened.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

IDK. I grew up out in the country and we (DH, DS & I) are currently living with my dad in the house I grew up in. Some animals are just pests, period. Would/do you live-trap mice & rats and let them go back outside your house? Or do you have the normal cheapo rat/mouse traps that usually (but not always) kill them?? Because for many folks groundhogs/ground squirrles, racooons, oppossums, etc are on the same level as mice & rats.

They're pests, and they damage property - in this case your FIL's garden/fence/yard/whatever. We've shot many groundhogs & racoons & opossums around here over the years. Its not something we like doing, but it has to be done - otherwise they crap everywhere, dig up/eat veggies, dig massive holes which are dangerous (especially when on a tractor or riding lawn mower!!), kill chickens, etc. Live trapping and releasing elsewhere is *NOT* ethical with these critters, because they are inevitably just going to be someone else's problem and/or come back to your place in a few days.

Assuming your mom/fil live out in a similar place (which I'm assuming given your description at the beginning of the post), theres no way your going to convince them to live-trap groundhogs and then release them. Its just not ethical to do. That said, hitting them over the head with a stick isn't the ideal way to dispatch them - most people just shoot them.

But really, if you don't want your kids seeing this sort of stuff, either just don't take them, or don't allow them to go check traps with FIL or anyone else. Because if something got caught it almost certainly will be killed. Most people that use live traps tend to kill what they catch too - theres just nothing else to be done with them.


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## Learning_Mum (Jan 5, 2007)

Sounds like Grandpa was putting the animal out of it's misery and the other animals would eat them. It's the circle of life.

I don't agree with hunting for sport, but humans have been killing animals for survival for a loooong time.

Your boys don't exactly sound traumatised about it.

I would say, don't let them check traps and just drop the subject unless they want to talk about it.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

It sounds to me like these squirrels are pests. Have you ever lived where squirrels rip into your house and eat holes in every thing. I have. We used to get all kinds of animals ripping into our house when Dh and I first were together. Pack rats, squirrels, chipmunks, mice-we lived in a cabin and they did tons of damage to our stuff.

Should grandpa have taken the kids out while he was removing the squirrels? Probably not. It does sound a bit graphic, but it also sounds like they are damaging their property. Where I live we have a serious deer problem and I have to say after getting a few hundred dollars worth of trees, and garden plants eaten or ruined I can completely commiserate. Many people who don't live in the country don't understand what it is like to have your garden and hard work decimated in an evening by pesky pests, it sucks.

I really don't think your kids are going to be completely traumatized over this, I know my DD wouldn't be if it was explained to her why it had happened. IDK-I guess living in the country I can understand why he is doing this. It gets really frustrating having your garden repeatedly eaten by animals and not you.


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

If your FIL was doing this for fun then I"d consider it animal abuse, but he wasn't & it isn't animal abuse.

There is nothing else he could have done. It was quicker for him to do it that way than to go & get a gun to shoot it. Throwing it in the woods for the animals to eat is just part of the food chain, the same as if they eat the fish that they catch.


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## quietmama (Dec 31, 2005)

I really appreciate all the perspectives here. I completely get where everyone is coming from and yes, I agree pests are hard to live with and they do destroy a lot of property.

It helps me to hear that it doesn't sound as offensive to others and hearing other Mums put it into perspective makes me feel better about my boys seeing it. Yes, I would prefer they hadn't seen this and I'll request next time that they don't check traps with him so now I'm feeling better about it.

You gave me good talking points to discuss the incident with the boys and I really appreciate it. I'll sleep better tonight. Last night I laid in bed and stewed over it.

Thanks!


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

I'm glad you are feeling better. Sounds like you are dealing with it in all the right ways, so I am sorry I don't have advice to add. For what it is worth, that would have bothered me in a MAJOR way. Even if grandpa traps and kills the animals, I see no reason for children in one of the ripest stages for the development of empathy and compassion to be involved in any way and to even know about it. I wouldn't necessarily ask grandpa to change his ways, but I would do exactly what you are doing in letting him know he won't be taking my kids out.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

That sounds pretty horrifying. I wouldn't feel better about it just yet. With such young children it often takes a while for this stuff to get processed. The emotions caused by seeing something disturbing can often surface then disappear rappidly just to pop back up again, like a submarine. Expect the discussion to be brought up again by them, especially the youngest.

I would not excuse what grandpa did. What your step-dad is doing may actually be illegal deppending on where they live. It would definitely be illegal here in NJ, and carry a hefty fine and possible imprisonment. I would talk about how sometimes people we care about do things that are wrong, but that we don't stop loving them simply b/c they do something wrong.


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## Learning_Mum (Jan 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
That sounds pretty horrifying. I wouldn't feel better about it just yet. With such young children it often takes a while for this stuff to get processed. The emotions caused by seeing something disturbing can often surface then disappear rappidly just to pop back up again, like a submarine. Expect the discussion to be brought up again by them, especially the youngest.

I would not excuse what grandpa did. What your step-dad is doing may actually be illegal deppending on where they live. It would definitely be illegal here in NJ, and carry a hefty fine and possible imprisonment. I would talk about how sometimes people we care about do things that are wrong, but that we don't stop loving them simply b/c they do something wrong.

I think if you make it out to be a big deal, it will be. I'm not saying to dismiss the kids feelings, but plenty of people grow up in the country and don't turn out to be disturbed. I remember my Nana telling me about seeing chickens when he Dad would cut their heads off - she definitely wasn't disturbed by it, that's just what happened.

Grandpa was being kind, not cruel. He wasn't torturing and killing animals for pure sadistic pleasure, he was doing what needed to be done. Big animals eat little animals, it's the food chain and the circle of life. Death is a natural part of that. There is a big difference between killing something and abusing it, and I don't think it's a bad lesson to teach kids.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Learning_Mum* 
Grandpa was being kind, not cruel. He wasn't torturing and killing animals for pure sadistic pleasure, he was doing what needed to be done.

He didn't swiftly dispatch the squirrel by breaking its neck, he beat it repeatedly with a stick.


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## Learning_Mum (Jan 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
He didn't swiftly dispatch the squirrel by breaking its neck, he beat it repeatedly with a stick.

Maybe he couldn't.


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommariffic* 
Was he hitting the squirrel to put it out of it's misery?

I'm totally against trapping animals [unless it's for a food source] but I know that when an animal is wounded I would put it out of it's misery. If that was the case, I'd probably explain that

Yeah, that's the route I would go for explaining to my children.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
He didn't swiftly dispatch the squirrel by breaking its neck, he beat it repeatedly with a stick.

Wouldn't he have been at a greater risk of being bitten, if he grabbed the squirrel's head?


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Personally, I think it was an in your face thing for him to do. He could have sent the boys back inside knowing how you feel about these things. So I guess I'm in the minority of the posters here. I would probably explain the situation as best as you could to your children.

Your grandpa has a problem with the squirrels digging up their yard, but I want you kids to know that hurting an animal like that is not a fun thing to do. It really hurts the animal, and even when animals or people do something wrong they deserve to be treated with kindness. If we ever have a problem with animals destroying our property we will seek out the most humane way to chase them off.

Steps to getting rid of squirrels:
*put your attention on sanitation and property maintenance. Don't leave pet food unattended. Don't leave bird seed unattended. Any source of food like nuts and other protein rich substances will attract more squirrels. Removing easily foraged food sources from the environment will make sure squirrels don't hang around too long.
*Squirrels have natural enemies with one of them being the fox. Because of this, many manufacturers make repellants from fox urine or something very similar smelling. Other manufacturers have other products made to repel the pesty little critters.
*If you want to try something that you can get at your local gropcery store, try moth balls. If you were to search the net for ideas you would read many many instances of people using moth balls to keep the squirrels away. Back a hundred (or two) years ago, moth balls were very popular.
*Something else you might be able to but locally, and use as a repellant, are chili peppers. But the hottest you can find. Habaneras and cascabellas may work also. So buy the peppers, grind them up and stick them in your flower pots or around your garden. Squirrels don't like hot stuff.
(one problem with squirrel propellants (or any animal propellant) is that after a heavy rain they will probably be diluted or washed away, thus necessitating a re-application.)
*To keep them out of your bird feeder, you can buy special bird feeders that tilt or spin when something heavy, like a squirrel, sits on it (as opposed to a bird). Or, you can put baffles on the pole so they can't climb up it.

Or, you can feed the birds something that squirrels don't like. It is said that squirrels don't like safflower seeds because they are too bitter. So, fill your bird feeder with safflower seeds (which is already usually quite common in bird feed) The birds will still come and dine but hopefully your squirrels won't.

Lastly along this same line, instead of trying to keep them out of something, create a feeding area for the squirrels. This could be one of those stands with a cob of corn on - like you must have seen, or containers full of nuts, berries corn or sunflower seeds. Just make sure this 'squirrel feeding area' is far from your garden, house or whatever else you are trying to keep them from.

*One last suggestion to get rid of squirrels naturally is to use a "live trap". A "live trap" is where you catch them safely in a cage and then take them somewhere to release them.
If you do the trapping your self, then you have to get rid of them. As mentioned above, the humane way is to release them. But, you can't just take them outside and let them go.

People say that squirrels have an uncanny ability to find their way back to you. So if you are going to let them go, you need to take them somewhere miles away.

There are a few ideas, none of which require beating an animal in the head with a stick.







:


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Learning_Mum* 
I think if you make it out to be a big deal, it will be. I'm not saying to dismiss the kids feelings, but plenty of people grow up in the country and don't turn out to be disturbed. I remember my Nana telling me about seeing chickens when he Dad would cut their heads off - she definitely wasn't disturbed by it, that's just what happened.

Grandpa was being kind, not cruel. He wasn't torturing and killing animals for pure sadistic pleasure, he was doing what needed to be done. Big animals eat little animals, it's the food chain and the circle of life. Death is a natural part of that. There is a big difference between killing something and abusing it, and I don't think it's a bad lesson to teach kids.

1) growing up in the country does not equate being exposed to animals being killed via beheading or beaten to death. So, naturally, not all country kids turn out to be disturbed.
2) cutting off a chickens head because you are going to eat it, is different then beating a squirrel in the head with a stick. You can eliminate squirrels without killing them. The squirrel didn't die because a fox ate it. The squirrel died because grandpa thought "hunting" them would be more fun they warding them off.


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## eli's mama (Jan 8, 2005)

this is one of the issues I struggle with myself. We have a lot of issues with animals in and around our garden and yard. DH wants to start hunting (deer) and I'm a little freaked out thinking of the kids seeing and being involved in that. I don't eat meat, but DH could live off venison and the free meat would be a huge bonus for our budget. It's a little different than your situation I know. But some of the people that DH has been taking hunting advice from have this ugly way of talking about killing animals and I would like for my kids to have more respect for life, human or animal. And of course they act like I'm just being annoying when I try to talk to them about it.

I guess I'm trying to say I have no advice, just







s


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

mommysarah, maybe some of those things 'work' but they all also cost money, on a constant basis. I don't know *ANYONE* who lives out in the country who feeds squirrels. Thats just totally counter productive. Yeah, maybe they goto your 'feeding station' first, but then they go check out the rest of the property. And it attracts the darn things - something most of us try to avoid at all costs.

I honestly can't imagine putting chili pepper or fox urine or moth balls all around our gardens/property. Theres just way too much space to try to 'protect' or 'ward' from squirrels or anything else. The amount of money it'd cost to buy enough to properly 'ward' them off would be huge and highly cost prohibitive.

And, finally, 'live trapping' may work, but where exactly are you supposed to let the darn things go? You say to take them miles away. Great. So now they're somebody elses' problem. People that live out here *HATE* people who trap critters elsewhere and then dump them where they live. Its extremely unethical - because, yeah, now *YOU* don't have to deal with the squirrel/****/possum, but somebody else does! Now its not your lawn/garden/whatever getting eaten/destroyed its somebody elses. How is that 'fair' or 'nice'?? In some places its actually illegal - just like dumping that stray dog/cat off out in the middle of nowhere is illegal.

*Live trapping and releasing elsewhere is *NOT* ethical!!!!*


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
I would not excuse what grandpa did. What your step-dad is doing may actually be illegal deppending on where they live. It would definitely be illegal here in NJ, and carry a hefty fine and possible imprisonment.

It wouldn't, actually. In NJ (as in many states), it's legal for a property owner to kill squirrels that are causing property damage. However, it is NOT legal in NJ to release trapped squirrels wherever you want. (Of course, there aren't any ground squirrels in NJ. Ground squirrels are similar to chipmunks, and are found in the west and midwest.) In some states, ground squirrels are completely unprotected and can be killed by anyone who wants to kill them for any reason.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Learning_Mum* 
Sounds like Grandpa was putting the animal out of it's misery and the other animals would eat them. It's the circle of life.

I don't agree with hunting for sport, but humans have been killing animals for survival for a loooong time.

Your boys don't exactly sound traumatised about it.

Yep. I would talk to them about it and why grandpa did that. If you don't want your children to see that, don't send them to your parents' house.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
The squirrel didn't die because a fox ate it. The squirrel died because grandpa thought "hunting" them would be more fun they warding them off.

Oh, come on - that's completely unfair. The OP never said anything that implied grandpa was trapping the squirrels for fun.

Here is some interesting information on one type of ground squirrel that might possibly affect the way some people feel about killing them. According to this source:

Quote:

Only 5-15% of juvenile male Richardson's ground squirrels survive their first year and reach adulthood. As adults, males have about a 25% chance of surviving each succeeding year. Thus, male Richardson's ground squirrels rarely attain the age of 3 years. In contrast, 35-45% of juvenile females survive to adulthood, and adult females have a 50% chance of surviving each subsequent year. Thus, female Richardson's ground squirrels often live 3 or 4 years, with a few surviving as long as 5 or 6 years.
So sparing a ground squirrel's life doesn't guarantee it will live a lot longer. Chances are, it won't live all that much longer whether or not it gets caught in a trap, especially if it's a male. And if you read further on that page, you'll see that one reason females live longer than males is that they tend to stay in one familiar area their whole lives. So a female that was trapped and released outside of its familiar area presumably would not have a very good chance of survival. Killing it quickly is probably no less humane than releasing it and letting something else kill it.

Of course, grandpa could try other strategies like repellants, but I would be surprised if that ended up being very effective.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I don't think grandpa should have let them watch or check traps.

I completely understand why grandpa does this. It isn't abuse. Breaking a squirls neck is not as easy as a birds neck. It is much better than him laying out posions.

Trapping and releasing an animal in another area isn't always ethical. Many areas their is animal territories. Also a new area the animal might not have enough food to survive.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think you should try to tell them how much your kids adore him, how much you value him being in the boys lives, and then about how they felt about seeing this and asking him to consider killing the animal before or after the boys come over so his relationship with them isn't hurt any more than it has been by this incident. I don't think you should address it as an issue for him to stop or even address how hideous it is to do this, just as something the boys aren't ready to handle right now. If you don't think he will be receptive to this then I think you should address this to your mom instead but don't push for it to stop, just for more sensitivity around the boys.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
It wouldn't, actually. In NJ (as in many states), it's legal for a property owner to kill squirrels that are causing property damage. However, it is NOT legal in NJ to release trapped squirrels wherever you want. (Of course, there aren't any ground squirrels in NJ. Ground squirrels are similar to chipmunks, and are found in the west and midwest.) In some states, ground squirrels are completely unprotected and can be killed by anyone who wants to kill them for any reason.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/200...es_pest_c.html
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/200...le_in_sea.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/08/25/op...oo-057940.html


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## Close2Me (Dec 9, 2008)

Have you ever just walked up to a squirrel? Most likely... never and if one did..something is wrong with it: plauge or injured.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
Oh, come on - that's completely unfair. The OP never said anything that implied grandpa was trapping the squirrels for fun.=

I don't think its unfair. As I said it's because grandpa thinks hunting is more fun than warding them off. Thats just my point. He COULD have warded them off. If he didn't like hunting, and if he shared the OP's feelings on the matter, he would have taken another approach. But he didn't, and I don't think its unreasonable of me to say its probably because he likes hunting and doesn't see anything wrong with hurting animals - whether it be for sport/recreation or for purpose. If for purpose, it could have been handled differently. He sometimes kills animals for recreational purposes, and so thought nothing of it in that situation. I am not against hunting for food. He wasn't eating these squirrels though. Nor do I agree this is witnessing the food chain in action. And all in all, the guy, from what I gather from the OP, thinks the boys should be able to hunt, and knows the OP doesn't want them too, and in knowing that trapped and killed an animal in their presence. It was out of line, and it was very much IMO him wanting those kids to experience "hunting", which is something he enjoys. The great thing about this being my opinion, is that you don't have to agree with me.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 

So sparing a ground squirrel's life doesn't guarantee it will live a lot longer.

So how do you feel about people who have cancer but are still enjoying the days they have left? should we not "spare" their life, since there is no guarantee they will live much longer anyway? Sorry, but the reasoning you outline here is not very convincing.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Lot's of school in Princeton College Campus... never gave anyone a bit of trouble... my friend used to have nightmares about evil squirrels though lol but I have never had a problem with them myself. We used to do our homework on campus there and they never bothered us or disturbed anything. There were a ton of them too.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
He COULD have warded them off. If he didn't like hunting, and if he shared the OP's feelings on the matter, he would have taken another approach.

How do you know he could have warded them off? How do you know he didn't try that first? Just because you've heard of methods for repelling squirrels, you shouldn't assume that those methods are always guaranteed to work.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
So how do you feel about people who have cancer but are still enjoying the days they have left? should we not "spare" their life, since there is no guarantee they will live much longer anyway? Sorry, but the reasoning you outline here is not very convincing.

Completely different situation. People are aware they can die, and are generally unhappy about the prospect, and their quality of life is lowered if they feel they live in a society where their lives are not valued. If you think any of that is true for ground squirrels, you've been reading too many children's books where animals wear clothes and talk.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/200...es_pest_c.html
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/200...le_in_sea.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/08/25/op...oo-057940.html

Those links do indicate that NJ residents risk being charged with violations of animal cruelty laws for things that would probably go unremarked in more rural parts of the country. But they aren't directly applicable to the OP's situation - except maybe the last one, about the man who was charged for beating a rat to death with a stick. But I looked up more information about that case and found that the charges were later dismissed. The first link was about someone who was basically charged for NOT killing a squirrel. A trap was left unchecked for too long, and the squirrel in it died. I doubt there would have been any legal repercussions if the trapper had killed the squirrel soon after it was caught. The second link was about someone killing a seagull for basically no reason. It wasn't a property damage situation - and gulls, unlike most ground squirrels, are federally protected.


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## spicyrock (Apr 11, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
Lot's of school in Princeton College Campus... never gave anyone a bit of trouble... my friend used to have nightmares about evil squirrels though lol but I have never had a problem with them myself. We used to do our homework on campus there and they never bothered us or disturbed anything. There were a ton of them too.

Are you sure those were ground squirrels? I thought ground squirrels were things like marmots or prairie dogs.

Of course, normal squirrels (should I call them tree squirrels?) can be ginormous pests, too. My grandfather traps them live at his house in town and drives them out to his farm, where he releases them on his own forest land. If that weren't an option, I'm sure he'd kill them. There are too many of them... and they terrorize my grandmom's birds, or something.

Almost everyone in my family hunts- deer, quail, dove, sometimes boar or turkey. They do keep the meat, but that isn't why they do it. Hunting these animals helps keep the populations down... and while I don't personally enjoy it, I don't think reducing a population of pest animals amounts to abuse. Mostly, I think the men in my family enjoy the tradition of all getting up at the crack of dawn, eating hot food together, being out in the woods all day...

op, I think by explaining to your kids that killing an animal isn't fun, but grandpa found that he had to put that squirrel out of his misery you're taking the right approach.

ETA: I'm assuming in the quoted post that you meant to type "squirrels" where you typed "school."


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

I know that animals feel pain too, including the pain of their heads being bashed in with sticks. It has nothing to do with children's fairy tales, it has everything to do with their biological make up.

If their death served a purpose in the circle of life I don't have a problem with that, but if it's due to vanity or amusement then yes I do see something wrong with it.

Yes, maybe he did try to ward them off in other ways. I wonder why then, he wanted to show the children how the trap works and have the children watch him kill the animal, and why he expressed his distaste towards the idea they would not be taught to hunt as a sport? This does not strike me as the personality of someone who would consider other options first. again just my opinion, I respect you have yours, I just don't happen to share yours same as you don't share mine.

If there is food in his yard and he is choosing to trap them instead of get rid of the food the squirrels are after then I think that's wrong. And it's not like he is going to get rid of the squirrels. They will keep coming back if he doesn't get rid of what they are coming back for.

But hey, why go through that trouble when you can catch them and bash their heads in, right?

And in the end, maybe whether or not it was animal abuse may be a matter of opinion - but the real issue is he did it in front of her children knowing how she feels about it. You can think he had to bash the squirrels head in all you want, but he didn't need to do it in front of the kids. Great that they weren't traumatized by it, maybe. Or maybe its something that should concern people, debatable I agree... but he could have respected her feelings on the issue by doing it out of their presence. The fact that they seemingly were not bothered by it may in fact be an indicator that it did effect them negatively but there is no need to go into depth with that either.

I think perhaps, if not animal abuse, it was disrespectful and abusing the trust of the children's mother. To feel the need to have a child present while you kill an animal that you don't plan to eat and are not defending yourself from, for the mere reason that YOU (who are not the parent) feel the child should witness the death of an animal.. we'll I think that speaks for itself.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

So, because we have veggie gardens and rabbits/groundhogs/*****/etc are attracted to them, we should just deal with them eating everything that we grow?? Or spend hundreds of dollars in failed attempts to 'ward' them off with various smelly things??? How the heck is that practicle??

As for whether or not something is technically 'animal abuse' meh. Apparently its actually illegal to shoot your own dogs in OH (some idiot fireman shot his dogs in Columbus a few weeks ago and is getting charged with animal abuse), but I know *LOTS* of people who have done it - including my dad - when a dog got old/sick (or they just plum couldn't afford to keep it anymore) rather than going in and spending $50+ to have it 'put to sleep'. Of course, maybe you think it'd be more "humane" to go dump said dog/cat out in the middle of nowhere so it can be somebody else's problem - stray dogs commonly kill livestock, not to mention all the songbird populations being decimated by 'house cats' who got released by owners who couldn't take care of them anymore. Of course, us folks in the country should just learn to deal with having our gardens/yards/bird feeders/livestock killed by stray dogs, cats & wild animals. Cause' you know, killing the animals that are hurting your property is "animal abuse"

Yeah, maybe her FIL shouldn't have taken her kids with him. Maybe that was a bad judgment call on his part. But what he did is/was hardly 'wrong' to my mind, and many/most other folks who live outside of the city limits. Some animals are simply pests, and yeah, another ****/oppossum/squirrel/rabbit will probably move in if you kill this one eventually, but for a while at least you'll be able to sleep peacefully. And maybe the new one won't take livestock or dig up your flower beds & garden.


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## BoringTales (Aug 1, 2006)

Are you vegetarians?? Do they know where meat comes from? I'm not seeing the big deal here, really. Next time you go there, just tell your step-dad you would prefer your kids not be exposed to that kind of thing. They can stay at the house while he checks traps.

Were your kids bothered by it or just kind of matter of fact about it? Honestly, at the ages they are, I would probably rather my kids didn't see something like that too, but I wouldn't worry they'd be scarred for life or anything.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:

Yes, maybe he did try to ward them off in other ways. I wonder why then, he wanted to show the children how the trap works and have the children watch him kill the animal, and why he expressed his distaste towards the idea they would not be taught to hunt as a sport? This does not strike me as the personality of someone who would consider other options first. again just my opinion, I respect you have yours, I just don't happen to share yours same as you don't share mine.

If there is food in his yard and he is choosing to trap them instead of get rid of the food the squirrels are after then I think that's wrong. And it's not like he is going to get rid of the squirrels. They will keep coming back if he doesn't get rid of what they are coming back for.

But hey, why go through that trouble when you can catch them and bash their heads in, right?
Yikes. Not to be rude, but you sound extremely uninformed on hunting. Say the guy walked up on a squirrel that was sick or injured. Should he leave it and take his grandchildren somewhere or should he put it out of its misery before it could wander away and die a slow and painful death? I'm totally guessing here, but I'd say he used a stick because it was there and this was something he wanted taken care of quickly.

We have lots of squirrels at our house. We also have tons of fruit trees they like to snack on. I don't mind the squirrels in the trees, but if they were in my garden, I would have a problem. I'm certainly not going to take food away from my family because of a squirrel.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

the squirrel was in a trap in the backyard. Which he knowingly went to check with the kids. then chose not to say "hey, i'll meet you kids back inside" then he beat th squirrels head in with a stick. Why he couldn't manage to kill the squirrel on the first whack (maybe he didn't intend to kill it with the first whack?) is beyond me. What made multiple whacks to the head necessary - that is something I don't know. But the rest seems pretty clear as far as doing it in front of the kids.

I am fine with animals being killed in a humane way in attempt to protect self or provide a source of food. As far as having a garden, well I've had them my whole life and have never needed to kill any animals to keep them out of it. There ARE other options, should a person choose to use them.

As for the options I listen, not all are options in all areas, but what IS an option in all areas is for people who believe in hunting not to push it on the children of families who don't believe in hunting by having the children watch an animal being killed.

As for shooting a dog, well, from what I understand that is more humane then putting them to sleep, if you do it the right way. I heard putting a dog to sleep only looks peaceful, but it a much longer lasting pain for the animal. I have never been in that situation though, but I would look to confirm that before making a choice like that. I don't think its something I would take lightly.

Also I dated a guy whose dad was a hunter. I actually have no problem personally with hunting. The guys dad used ALL of the kill though. He would make deer jerkey, use the skin for stuff, the animals insides, if he had too much meat he would give some to friends. I can hardly compare that to the situation described. now, I will say, I wasn't fond of walking past a deer bleeding out into a bucket in their shed, but I ate deer meat that night (I think it was the same night... it's been nearly 10 years now though), I thought it was good, I understood the population issues when it came to deers, etc. I just wouldn't kill an animal for the sake of it (but if thats what other people want to do, I leave my opinion of that out - it still wouldn't be okay to do in front of children from a family who do not want them to see that). If this is an ongoing problem then obviously the traps are not working, and in any event, what the guy did was out of line when it comes to respecting the wishes of the children's mother. Just like I would not care if someone chose to put drugs into their own body, I would have a huge problem if they did it in front of my kids.

It's sad when things turn into people looking for an excuse to kill. Again, I see nothing wrong with hunting, and I understand why someone wouldn't want animals eating the food in their garden - but hitting a squirrel repeatedly in the head until death I personally do not think is okay. And more so, most importantly in the context of this thread, it's not okay what that the guy did this in front of those children knowing how their mother felt about it.


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Life in the country is different than life in the city. Period. It isn't all rainbows and butterflies. Grandpa did nothing wrong, it was by no definition abuse, and frankly, the boys will not be scarred from it.

If the boys ever want to buy some acres and live in a rural setting, they're going to have to do the same thing. What grandpa did is a drop in the hat compared to some of the things my husband and his six brothers and sisters had to do to survive on their hundred acres, and none of them are damaged from living that life. If anything, they're enriched.


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## ShadowMoon (Oct 18, 2006)

Not everyone that grows up in the country and farms deals with pests in the same way. I know many people that try to live in (their version of harmony) with their surroundings. There are ways to ward off pests without killing them but I do understand some people would choose lethal ways. I also don't think you are going to change your step-dad's mind about how he does things.

You already have some excellent advice about how to talk with your boys about what they saw and maybe how to avoid seeing it in the future if they would like that.

Sorry you had to deal with that. And also, ethics vary from person to person. If done responsibly, live trapping and relocation is very ethical to me and much more humane. Local animal control and Departments of Fish and Wildlife can help people with this and many encourage it. Again, I do understand others points of view on the matter. However, ethics and morals are very debatable and are very personal and should be argued respectably.

To the OP, good luck with this issue, I'm sure it will turn out fine!


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShadowMoon* 
Not everyone that grows up in the country and farms deals with pests in the same way. I know many people that try to live in (their version of harmony) with their surroundings. There are ways to ward off pests without killing them but I do understand some people would choose lethal ways. I also don't think you are going to change your step-dad's mind about how he does things.

You already have some excellent advice about how to talk with your boys about what they saw and maybe how to avoid seeing it in the future if they would like that.

Sorry you had to deal with that. And also, ethics vary from person to person. If done responsibly, live trapping and relocation is very ethical to me and much more humane. Local animal control and Departments of Fish and Wildlife can help people with this and many encourage it. Again, I do understand others points of view on the matter. However, ethics and morals are very debatable and are very personal and should be argued respectably.

To the OP, good luck with this issue, I'm sure it will turn out fine!

Amen









On a side note, I once saw a squirrel fall out of a tree. Falls under the "nature scenes you rarely see" category. It was in my step-dad's grandma's backyard, and as much as I love the tiny critters, it was a bit funny (the squirrel was okay). We also had a lot of squirrels in the last apartment complex we lived in. The complex was set up so that it surrounded 2 pools, some tennis courts, and other amenities, there was a lot of grassy area and trees. There were quite a few birds and squirrels, and it was very peaceful to sit out on the grass with my kids and watch the birds and squirrels, I've always enjoyed watching squirrels scamper up trees even since I was little, they are just really neat animals to watch. I've always felt a huge peace towards animals, and they have always been peaceable with me







:


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## Learning_Mum (Jan 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
Amen









On a side note, I once saw a squirrel fall out of a tree. Falls under the "nature scenes you rarely see" category. It was in my step-dad's grandma's backyard, and as much as I love the tiny critters, it was a bit funny (the squirrel was okay). We also had a lot of squirrels in the last apartment complex we lived in. The complex was set up so that it surrounded 2 pools, some tennis courts, and other amenities, there was a lot of grassy area and trees. There were quite a few birds and squirrels, and it was very peaceful to sit out on the grass with my kids and watch the birds and squirrels, I've always enjoyed watching squirrels scamper up trees even since I was little, they are just really neat animals to watch. I've always felt a huge peace towards animals, and they have always been peaceable with me







:

I think it just comes down to things being viewed differently depending whether you live in the city or the country. I live in the city and really like feeding the birds and watching them but if I were to live in the country and those birds were eating my crops then I wouldn't be so keen on them.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Learning_Mum* 
I think it just comes down to things being viewed differently depending whether you live in the city or the country. I live in the city and really like feeding the birds and watching them but if I were to live in the country and those birds were eating my crops then I wouldn't be so keen on them.

but you assume I lived in the city as a child? I attended school in a "city", and I live in one now, but I grew up in the country. My neighbors owned a farm (mostly corn) and he used to give us fresh corn when we helped him. My previous boyfriend I spoke of, whose father hunted, lived on a farm as well. My grandmother, who I spent summers with lived in the country as well and had a huge garden in her backyard. My grandfather taught me how to grow tomatos - they were the best too, you could eat them like apples. The first one that was ripe he brought to me at camp.

We lived where you would go fill up your own spring water. Living in the country does not mean you get rid of squirrels by killing them.

When you live in the country, it just makes more sense to grow your own food, or purchase from your neighbors. A trip to the market was just not practical like it is when you live in the city and can go to the stores.

To clarify - my family lived with my grandparents until I was 9, then we moved to the city into a townhouse, but I still visited my grandparent who lived in the country. They didn't have a farm at the time, just a garden, but they once did keep livestock, and my grandfather used to hunt, but that was before I was born or at least before I can remember.


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## quietmama (Dec 31, 2005)

Thank you for all the discussion and all the replies. I think I'll clarify a few points so maybe you can all get a better perspective on why it is so upsetting me.

First off, my mistake, I did some research and although my step-dad (Grandpa) calls them ground squirrels they are Pocket Gophers. Here's an image: Pocket Gopher. So, yes, they are definitely more harmful than ground squirrels.

There is a lot of background to my relationship with my step-dad that might help you understand why it seemed very inappropriate to me that he took the boys to check the traps and killed the gopher in front of them with a stick.

Growing up my step-dad has always been a very avid hunter. Deer, Elk, Cougar, Moose, Turkey. He lives in the middle of a National Forest and it's an itty-bitty town where 90% of the population are hunters. It's definitely one of the main reasons people live in this town. So, long ago, my step-dad and Mom (I call them my parents because my Dad passed away when I was 21) asked me to get a moose permit. In Idaho you can only get one moose permit per lifetime and my sisters, my Mom, and my Step-Dad all got moose permits and used them. My family eats mostly meats that they have hunted. I do not have a problem with people hunting responsibly for meat and I don't have a problem eating it but I never would be able to kill an animal myself. I've always had a very sensitive spot for animals and have never been one that could deal with witnessing an animals death. My parents, especially my step-dad, really wanted me to get a moose permit and I have always said "No Way." So, this was always "a thing" for my parents.

Whenever we go for visits there are all kinds of Gun Magazines laying around and my step-dad keeps the shells to his bullets so my boys can "play" with them. This is something I have asked him not to do but he seems to always have the magazines conveniently placed and the bullet shells in a nice zip-lock bag laying around. A little obvious.

I could go on and on about many things that he does to try and get the boys interested in hunting. Last time we were there I was gone for about 3 hours and I found out that Grandpa opened his gun safe for the boys to see his guns while I was gone.

I've talked to him about this and he knows that I do not want the boys interested in hunting and killing animals at this early of an age. Ideally, I don't want them interested at all but if when they get older, they take gun safety courses and are really wanting to learn to hunt then I will let them learn from Grandpa.

So, for this incident to happen the one time I leave the house is what really makes me upset. He does think we're "crazy liberals" (his words) and feels like the boys are missing out on an important part of childhood and that they'll be "real" boys if they experience hunting and killing.

I talked to my Mom on the phone last night and she was talking about our next visit and I did say, that we won't be able to come back if this was to happen again.

I know the boys are probably really confused about the situation because my dh and I have always talked about respecting animals. We talk about how animals have feelings. We talk about that they are born from a Mama just like the boys are born from a Mama. We really work hard in building compassion for all living things and showing them the connection of animals and feelings. The main reason we got our 8 chickens this summer is to teach the boys how to care for animals and how much love they can bring to our household.

So, I'm sure it's very conflicting to them to see a live animal hit multiple times with a stick until it's nose is bleeding. I understand that my step-dad did this to relieve this animal from the harm that the trap did but I do not agree that my boys should have been out there checking traps and witnessing an animal being killed with a stick.

The part that is so frustrating is that this seems to conveniently happen when I'm out of the house.

Does that help explain my feelings in my first post? I should have clarified more....

I appreciate all the ideas for talking with the boys about it. It's really helpful to hear ideas for how to explain Grandpa's behaviors compared to how our family feels about killing animals.


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## ~Boudicca~ (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SandraS* 
Life in the country is different than life in the city. Period. It isn't all rainbows and butterflies. Grandpa did nothing wrong, it was by no definition abuse, and frankly, the boys will not be scarred from it.

If the boys ever want to buy some acres and live in a rural setting, they're going to have to do the same thing. What grandpa did is a drop in the hat compared to some of the things my husband and his six brothers and sisters had to do to survive on their hundred acres, and none of them are damaged from living that life. If anything, they're enriched.

Yup.


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## Learning_Mum (Jan 5, 2007)

Yes, I totally get where you're coming from. Your step-dad is just disregarding your feelings about this and that is a big problem. It does seem rather 'convenient' that they happened to check the traps while you were out.

As I said before, I would take your lead from your boys. If they seem to need to talk it out, then be there, if they don't seem to mind then I would let it go (with them) at the moment. It seems like you're doing a good job of teaching them your values and morals and honestly, they're more than likely to tell Grandpa that what he's doing is not right.

I definitely think you need to talk with your parents. What your step-dad is doing is not cool at all. I personally hate guns (we're not a big gun country so I've never really been around them) and I wouldn't want my parents letting my kids play with shell casings (doesn't that just seem dangerous anyway? I mean, what if they found some live casings and played with those?) esp. when I've told them not to. That I think is the major issue here.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *quietmama* 
Thank you for all the discussion and all the replies. I think I'll clarify a few points so maybe you can all get a better perspective on why it is so upsetting me.

First off, my mistake, I did some research and although my step-dad (Grandpa) calls them ground squirrels they are Pocket Gophers. Here's an image: Pocket Gopher. So, yes, they are definitely more harmful than ground squirrels.

There is a lot of background to my relationship with my step-dad that might help you understand why it seemed very inappropriate to me that he took the boys to check the traps and killed the gopher in front of them with a stick.

Growing up my step-dad has always been a very avid hunter. Deer, Elk, Cougar, Moose, Turkey. He lives in the middle of a National Forest and it's an itty-bitty town where 90% of the population are hunters. It's definitely one of the main reasons people live in this town. So, long ago, my step-dad and Mom (I call them my parents because my Dad passed away when I was 21) asked me to get a moose permit. In Idaho you can only get one moose permit per lifetime and my sisters, my Mom, and my Step-Dad all got moose permits and used them. My family eats mostly meats that they have hunted. I do not have a problem with people hunting responsibly for meat and I don't have a problem eating it but I never would be able to kill an animal myself. I've always had a very sensitive spot for animals and have never been one that could deal with witnessing an animals death. My parents, especially my step-dad, really wanted me to get a moose permit and I have always said "No Way." So, this was always "a thing" for my parents.

Whenever we go for visits there are all kinds of Gun Magazines laying around and my step-dad keeps the shells to his bullets so my boys can "play" with them. This is something I have asked him not to do but he seems to always have the magazines conveniently placed and the bullet shells in a nice zip-lock bag laying around. A little obvious.

I could go on and on about many things that he does to try and get the boys interested in hunting. Last time we were there I was gone for about 3 hours and I found out that Grandpa opened his gun safe for the boys to see his guns while I was gone.

I've talked to him about this and he knows that I do not want the boys interested in hunting and killing animals at this early of an age. Ideally, I don't want them interested at all but if when they get older, they take gun safety courses and are really wanting to learn to hunt then I will let them learn from Grandpa.

So, for this incident to happen the one time I leave the house is what really makes me upset. He does think we're "crazy liberals" (his words) and feels like the boys are missing out on an important part of childhood and that they'll be "real" boys if they experience hunting and killing.

I talked to my Mom on the phone last night and she was talking about our next visit and I did say, that we won't be able to come back if this was to happen again.

I know the boys are probably really confused about the situation because my dh and I have always talked about respecting animals. We talk about how animals have feelings. We talk about that they are born from a Mama just like the boys are born from a Mama. We really work hard in building compassion for all living things and showing them the connection of animals and feelings. The main reason we got our 8 chickens this summer is to teach the boys how to care for animals and how much love they can bring to our household.

So, I'm sure it's very conflicting to them to see a live animal hit multiple times with a stick until it's nose is bleeding. I understand that my step-dad did this to relieve this animal from the harm that the trap did but I do not agree that my boys should have been out there checking traps and witnessing an animal being killed with a stick.

The part that is so frustrating is that this seems to conveniently happen when I'm out of the house.

Does that help explain my feelings in my first post? I should have clarified more....

I appreciate all the ideas for talking with the boys about it. It's really helpful to hear ideas for how to explain Grandpa's behaviors compared to how our family feels about killing animals.

Thanks for opening up. I understand where you are coming from.

I really don't agree with his idea that you being against personal use of guns and hunting makes you liberal. He must not know what that word means lol. Anyway, his hunting habits and approach to killing the gopher aside, what he did as far as your kids were concerned was wrong. I'm glad your kids didnt seem to upset by it, but I think you have every right to be mad that he has disrespected your wishes (again - and this time in such an extreme way)

Yes, I can see how gophers could be much more of a pest then squirrels. How long has he been trapping and killing them? If it's been going on along while I wonder why he hasn't sought out another solution.


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## Chicky2 (May 29, 2002)

I wholeheartedly agree w/mamadelbosque and SandraS.

The only thing I'd have done differently is eat the squirrel after killing it.







:

My kids recently were involved in the process of killing and butchering and processing 40 or so feral pigs that were trapped by their grandfather and kept in a pen at his house til we processed them. My kids helped butcher them. They helped get the guts out, and helped grind the meat and package up and freeze what wasn't ground. They also helped to make several of the meals we've eaten since then out of our very full freezer of meat. These pigs otherwise get shot and dumped for the birds and other critters to eat (recently the government shot and dumped over 300 of them). They are pests and dangerous ones at that. So should we just have dumped them? Or should we have taken the opportunity to enrich our children's lives w/the chance to learn about where food comes from, how to obtain it for themselves, how to butcher and process it, and then how to store it and cook it? Now it's time to hunt the squirrels that have gotten fat off the corn that had been fed to the pigs while they waited to be butchered. If we don't hunt the squirrels, they'll eat the garden.

If you can't handle it, or don't want your kids seeing it, make yourself more clear to your stepdad or don't take them there.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Learning_Mum* 
Yes, I totally get where you're coming from. Your step-dad is just disregarding your feelings about this and that is a big problem. It does seem rather 'convenient' that they happened to check the traps while you were out.

As I said before, I would take your lead from your boys. If they seem to need to talk it out, then be there, if they don't seem to mind then I would let it go (with them) at the moment. It seems like you're doing a good job of teaching them your values and morals and honestly, they're more than likely to tell Grandpa that what he's doing is not right.

I definitely think you need to talk with your parents. What your step-dad is doing is not cool at all. I personally hate guns (we're not a big gun country so I've never really been around them) and I wouldn't want my parents letting my kids play with shell casings (doesn't that just seem dangerous anyway? I mean, what if they found some live casings and played with those?) *esp. when I've told them not to. That I think is the major issue here.*

I agree.

and for what it' worth, we are a gun owning household and I support the second amendment. I just think there are responsible and irresponsible ways to use guns. And sticks for that matter too.


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## Chicky2 (May 29, 2002)

Oops, I missed part of a post, but see it quoted in the pp's post.

If he's disrespecting your parenting, then you are going to have to stop taking your kids around him.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chicky2* 
I wholeheartedly agree w/mamadelbosque and SandraS.

The only thing I'd have done differently is eat the squirrel after killing it.








:

My kids recently were involved in the process of killing and butchering and processing 40 or so feral pigs that were trapped by their grandfather and kept in a pen at his house til we processed them. My kids helped butcher them. They helped get the guts out, and helped grind the meat and package up and freeze what wasn't ground. They also helped to make several of the meals we've eaten since then out of our very full freezer of meat. These pigs otherwise get shot and dumped for the birds and other critters to eat (recently the government shot and dumped over 300 of them). They are pests and dangerous ones at that. So should we just have dumped them? Or should we have taken the opportunity to enrich our children's lives w/the chance to learn about where food comes from, how to obtain it for themselves, how to butcher and process it, and then how to store it and cook it? Now it's time to hunt the squirrels that have gotten fat off the corn that had been fed to the pigs while they waited to be butchered. If we don't hunt the squirrels, they'll eat the garden.

If you can't handle it, or don't want your kids seeing it, make yourself more clear to your stepdad or don't take them there.

while I personally couldn't take the life of another animal, I have no problem with it being done in that way. to make food, to eat and not waste, that I have no problem with. Of course, I still wont eat the meat of an animal I know has been killed inhumanely.


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## quietmama (Dec 31, 2005)

Quote:

How long has he been trapping and killing them? If it's been going on along while I wonder why he hasn't sought out another solution.
Unfortunately, it's been going on as long as he's had a yard and/or a garden. He usually shoots them but I feel like he wanted my sons to see how traps work and to also be apart of the killing of an animal.

This is how I feel now, after this happened. The more I think about it the more I feel like he planned to trap the gophers while my sons were there.


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## ShadowMoon (Oct 18, 2006)

I think the real issue here is the fact that your step-father is refusing to respect your wishes during your visits and is disregarding your parenting style. Thank you for clarifying and I hope there is someway to get him to respect your wishes as his stepdaughter. Again, sorry you have to go through this.







For now I think that the best you can do is keep the open dialogue with your boys and keep living and teaching the values that are important to you and your family. Peace~


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *quietmama* 
Unfortunately, it's been going on as long as he's had a yard and/or a garden. He usually shoots them but I feel like he wanted my sons to see how traps work and to also be apart of the killing of an animal.

This is how I feel now, after this happened. The more I think about it the more I feel like he planned to trap the gophers while my sons were there.

That is sad. See to me, if it was more about his yard then his interest in hunting, then he would have long ago started looking for a better solution for warding off the gophers. Just my two cents of course. From what you said I got the vibe from your initial post that he had done this with your kids intentionally.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

PS- this must be a really hard situation for you, because your kids look up to himand he probably has a lot of good he can offer, so I can understand why you haven't already stopped bringing them over there. I see why you want to find a solution. Plus, it's not like its just him, you are visiting your mom when you go there too. What a cruddy situation to be in. It's hard when you have to balance one moral system against another (killing of animals versus importance of loving family despite their downfalls) I'm sure you will find the right decision to this seemingly impossible dilemma.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

I agree that grandpa not listening to you when you put up boundaries when it comes to your children is the larger issue. Over the long-term, I think that too needs to be addressed, and frankly, it seems he's only gotten sneakier when you've spoken about this with him in the past. For me, that would definitely be a major violation of trust.


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

Uggg, that was really nasty of him (the not-respecting-your-wishes part, not putting the animal out of its misery). Why oh why can't he have enough imagination to find other things to show the boys? What about gardening, building a campfire, building a lean-to, tracking, orienteering, etc.... there are so many outdoorsy, macho things that there must be lots of things that everybody involved would be happy about!


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## Learning_Mum (Jan 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rachelsmama* 
Uggg, that was really nasty of him (the not-respecting-your-wishes part, not putting the animal out of its misery). Why oh why can't he have enough imagination to find other things to show the boys? What about gardening, building a campfire, building a lean-to, tracking, orienteering, etc.... there are so many outdoorsy, macho things that there must be lots of things that everybody involved would be happy about!

Yeah, this is a really good point. Maybe you could encourage him to take them camping for a night and teach them how to find food and water and build fires. You know, like kids, tell him what he *can* do and not what he *can't* do? Or maybe you could reach a compromise where he teaches the kids to shoot but they're only allowed to shoot at inanimate (ie: non-living) targets?


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

The problem, IMO, is your step-dads attitude towards your wishes. Not his trapping/killing of gophers. Honestly, if it was me and my FIL/MIL/step-dad/step-mom/whoever was doing stuff like this, I'd just never leave my kids with them alone, period.

Do encorage him to do other stuff with them, but I'd certainly not trust him to take them camping/overnight/anywhere without you along. Its just a trust issue. And if he & your mom can't be trusted to be left alone and following your wishes for a couple hours, then how could you possibly trust them to have them overnight??


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Learning_Mum* 
Yeah, this is a really good point. Maybe you could encourage him to take them camping for a night and teach them how to find food and water and build fires.

If it were my kids, I wouldn't let him take them anywhere. He's already shown he will willfully do things behind the mom's back.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I think that unless you are truly willing to cut step-dad off completely, you need to be pragmatic in how you deal with things.

First, stop calling what he did "animal abuse". No animal control officer would consider killing a legally trapped animal abuse, and he didn't "play" with it. Considering that he had your two boys with him, hitting it on the head was a hell of a lot safer than shooting it in front of your boys or picking it up to wring its neck and risking a bite/claw to himself or your kids. You know that he likes to poke at you in regards to hunting and trapping, so stop giving him satisfaction.

I would have your partner and you sit down and talk with both of your parents. Don't go on some spiel about hunting or whatever, that's only giving him emotional satisfaction by stirring you up a bit, and that's irrelevant besides. The real issue is that he went against your stated wishes that your children not be exposed to animal deaths for the time being). When they go against your parenting wishes about one thing, it's harder to trust them about other things. If he'll do it for something that he knows is very emotional for you like hunting, then there's no telling what he'd do about "lesser" things. If you like him, you can always explain that you're not rejecting HIM, and you want him to be able to share experiences with the boys, but you are not ready for them to be part of killing animals just yet. Maybe you could suggest other things that he could do with them, like geocaching, campfire cooking, building forts/treehouses, how to find animal tracks, ect.

I think the only way you get through to a guy like this is to keep your cool, don't freak out, and keep your argument unemotional. Yeah, I know how hard that is when it's a parent. It sounds like grandpa feels like you totally reject him and his lfestype. Maybe you do. But you both might feel a little better if you can figure out things he can do with the boys that are outdoorsy but also respect your wishes, because you want him to be in their lives, and obviously they love him, you're just asking him to show love and respect for YOU in return by also compromising and removing the bloody aspect of it.

I've had to sit down with my dad about a few things in that manner (not about hunting though, we've always been very honest about where our meat comes from, they saw me break the neck of a canada goose that had been hit twice by cars and was still alive and suffering and had wounds too serious for repair, the kids have helped me catch/clean fish, ect--I disagree that things like that impair empathy in most kids. We cried together about the goose, poor beautiful thing.) Whenever I have come at him highly emotional and "you always do X" it seems to make us revert into the old child-adult role, and he totally rebels by instinct against any agreement or discussion. If I come at him cool, logical, acknowledging my respect for him, giving a few suggestions, and then asking him his opinon/ideas, it seems to work much better. You may, however, need to cut the visit short (in a very calm, respectful way) a few times if he likes to test boundaries. If you see the gun magazines and shells out, YOU put them up out of reach, without saying anything. If he gives them to your kids, or makes noise about going hunting with them or whatever, just tell the boys that you're so sorry, but you'll need to leave in about 5 minutes, let's kiss grandma and grandpa good bye, Love you parents but we've talked about this and I need you to respect my wishes, see you in 2 weeks!

It's a lot more stressful at first than just sucking it up to spit it out later, but fake calm if you have to. IME, people rarely have to do that more than twice---by the 2nd time either the problem parent has gotten the message, or things escalate and you'll need to take a break for awhile.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:

Idaho
Why am I not surprised? This is a huge generalization I know, but I'm going to put it out there. So much of Idaho is exactly as you describe the town your parents live in. So many people are "weird" "liberals" "hippies" and so on if they aren't gun toting Republicans. Having said that, we do hunt, but I have no issue at all with people who aren't comfortable with it.

He needs to listen to your wishes regarding this though or his grandsons aren't going to get the opportunity to explore this stuff with him. I can see what he's doing, he's thinking that just because you're against it, his grandsons won't be. He's totally forgetting that you are the parent, not him. My dad is an avid hunter and gun collector. He's got lots and lots of guns and always puts them away when we come over. My sil has huge issues with guns and my dad respects that.


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## SilverWillow (Dec 23, 2003)

OP, just want to validate your concern. I would be devastated if this was my dad and my DD. There is just no need for her little brain to have to process that visual. Having said that, mom to mom -- it's just once and I think you can help them process and overcome it. You're just going to have to be very clear with your stepdad that you love him, but that you come from completely different viewpoints here and that you are the one who wins. You're Mom.









My dad was a hunter in his youth and considers me a crazy hippie, but wouldn't dare to expose DD to something like that. He lives in the country and shoots the "pests" as well (they mess with his bird feeders, and so deserve to die prematurely and violently at the hands of our "supreme" species by being SHOT WITH a GUN. sorry, will never understand it and don't WANT to!). You know why he wouldn't do it? Because he is afraid he wouldn't get to see his granddaughter as much, or at all, or at least without my direct supervision if he did. Apparently I've been very clear with him, because he is exactly right. And he would do anything for her, and for me too, really. We manage to coexist quite peacefully given our different views -- we love each other too much to make it an issue, maybe. I'll bet your stepdad will do the same once he gets the picture. Glad you were able to make things clear to your mom. Your kids will be ok.


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## Areia (Mar 5, 2009)

Hi OP,
First, many hugs to you and your children. That's really horrible. I've just skimmed a bit, but I think someone posted on how this could have negative (lasting?) effects on the kids. I just wanted to let you know that when I was about 5 years old, I saw a relative's neighbor kill a rabbit. They lived in a very rural, grow/hunt your own food type of place. It was for food and it didn't even occur to him that I would be upset and he shouldn't do it front of me, but although I was horrified and upset for several days, I just wanted to let you know that it honestly hasn't had a negative lasting effect on me so truly, I think your LOs will be fine. It did bring up lots of discussions on where we get our food, did I not want to eat meat anymore, how we treat animals, etc and got us started as a family supporting local animal rights groups.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Irony of life --- My dogs started barking last night. Why?

Squirl was hanging out on our back door. He was/is a smart one. He knew he could perch on our door and not be harmed. Even when I moved the curtain he just started at me. It wasn't until I touch the door knob did he moved. He did this about 1/2 dozen times last night.


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## rhubarbarin (May 2, 2008)

OP, I have more in common with the views of your stepfather than I do with you on this matter. Despite being a gun-fearing, suburban, liberal, animal-lover - I am not soft-hearted and while I think we should seek to minimize animal pain, there's nothing wrong with killing them, and it's a big part of life that doesn't harm children to experience. But I still feel that he should respect your values. He didn't, and that's wrong.

If he can't agree to cooperate with your decisions as a parent, you will have to limit time with them or supervise more closely. It seems like you already framed it this way and give you a


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

It's too bad your SF thinks he needs to actually have the kids participate in the killing part to bond with them, when you object. Taking them into the woods to camp and track would likely be a better way to make sure they had a connection to the outdoors and might be interested in hunting with him when they are older. And killing an animal in a trap would not be the best into to hunting anyway.

I wouldn't worry about the magazines, although I don't let my kids play with shells. Not because they could be live - shotgun shells don't work that way - but because I worry about the lead residue.

But just to look at another angle, I sometimes think that we try to shield our kids from food production and just death in a way that is not healthy. Clearly a vegetarian family would not let their kids be involved in hunting or butchering farm animals. But for families that DO eat meat - is it always serving kids well to keep them away from the realities of what that means? Even if they understand theoretically that meat comes from animals, is it a good thing to keep that knowledge abstract? What do we serve by doing that? What do we lose? Perhaps a real understanding of the consequences and meaning of how we live.

Now, I don't think we should send our kids off to slaughterhouses to get acquainted with real life. I think we should teach kids respect for all living things and kindness and humanity. How to deal with this also depends on the child's temperament and maturity. Not hiding what meat is and going to visit farms is a good step. Perhaps helping with butchering and processing if your family does that. And maybe hunting with a respectful adult when they are responsible and mature enough, and want to.

I just want to add - warding off rodents is not always possible. It often doesn't work. But I think shooting is usually better than whacking with a stick, which has more room for error.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom* 
Irony of life --- My dogs started barking last night. Why?

Squirl was hanging out on our back door. He was/is a smart one. He knew he could perch on our door and not be harmed. Even when I moved the curtain he just started at me. It wasn't until I touch the door knob did he moved. He did this about 1/2 dozen times last night.

so cool! I love things like that. I don't care what people say I know animals are smarter then they are given credit for. My best friend growing up found an injured bird and her and her family (her dad was a hunter by the way) helped it heal. (took it to a vet then kept it at home as a pet just until it healed) then they set it free. for years that bird flew back to their home in the summers and ate bird seed from my friends hand. Wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it, but boy as a kid I was so jealous of my friend over that.

I have to say, I'm still curious why these animals need to be killed if killing them isn't getting rid of the pest problem. Seems more vengeful if you get to the point that you are killing them pointlessly (point being to get rid of the pests, but its not working and you still kill them just for hell of it?) Can't understand the reasoning in that. The whole thing kind of reminds me of that arcade game - whack a mole. Maybe that's what the step dad needs - a few video games to play "kill games" instead.


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## jlovesl (Dec 19, 2008)

How exactly do you ward off a squirrel????


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

re: the whacking with a stick. I'm wondering if I misunderstood the OP. I got the feeling these are kill traps, and the one "squirrel" didn't die, so the OP's stepdad was dealing with a badly injured animal. Is that correct? Did he even have a gun with him?

I may be off-base, but I didn't get the impression that he was expecting to be dealing with live animals when he went to check his traps.

OP: I'd be pretty angry at the blatant disregard of your parenting decisions. That's not cool.


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## Agatha_Ann (Apr 5, 2009)

I have mixed feelings on this thread. I would be very upset if this was done in front of my children when I had been clear about my feelings on the subject. I think it is good that you have let your mother know that this is unacceptable and I hope you are able to make the boundaries clear with your step father as well.

On the other hand...my DH and my oldest DS are out shooting gophers as I type this. They destroy our land with their holes which then leads to horses, cows, and sheep breaking legs. There really is no natural way to "ward them off" and there is nothing we could change that would make them move on. Our meat goes into the grocery stores like many other ranchers we are far from being the only ones who have to protect our livestock.

I don't like it personally, but they are a pest. Legal to kill like any other vermin.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
I have to say, I'm still curious why these animals need to be killed if killing them isn't getting rid of the pest problem. Seems more vengeful if you get to the point that you are killing them pointlessly (point being to get rid of the pests, but its not working and you still kill them just for hell of it?)

The only way to permanently get rid of them would probably be to change the habitat so that it was no longer suitable for them, which would probably mean changing the property so that it was less pleasant for people to live on and less suitable for other wildlife. (He could pave the whole area, for instance.) Killing some of them can at least keep their numbers down. Kind of like trapping mice in your house. Setting traps doesn't make all the mice move away from your neighborhood, or guarantee that no mice will get into your house in the future, but it keeps the mouse droppings and inside-the-wall scrabbling sounds at a reasonably low level.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
The only way to permanently get rid of them would probably be to change the habitat so that it was no longer suitable for them, which would probably mean changing the property so that it was less pleasant for people to live on and less suitable for other wildlife. (He could pave the whole area, for instance.) Killing some of them can at least keep their numbers down. Kind of like trapping mice in your house. Setting traps doesn't make all the mice move away from your neighborhood, or guarantee that no mice will get into your house in the future, but it keeps the mouse droppings and inside-the-wall scrabbling sounds at a reasonably low level.

im trying to picture the keeping the numbers things down. Are they going to take over completely? I feel like I am living in a parralel universe from some of you all here lol. I've lived in the city and the country. I've lived in multiple states, different kinds of homes, different living conditions. The worst problem I have had is once we had a mouse, but I liked the mouse and fed it and it was like a pet living in my wall. It was the only one I noticed. As far as pest problems, I've never had a problem keeping them away without killing them, and if killing them wasnt working I certainly wouldnt keep at it. But to each their own, I just have a hard buying it that the ONLY options are kill or let them take over completely or live in less then desirable living conditions. A lot of the changes in habitat they recommend suggest making your place a cleaner nicer place.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
A lot of the changes in habitat they recommend suggest making your place a cleaner nicer place.

Cleaner and nicer how? We have a bear problem in my municipality. The recommendations on dealing with it are to only put garbage out on pickup day (okay - major PITA for some elderly people and some others, but reasonable), and to get rid of bird feeders, pick all fruit immediately (not always possible) and get rid of any berry bushes. Those things might all work, but they certainly don't make a person's place "nicer".

My mom also has a hazelnut bush. She'd love to harvest hazelnuts, but the squirrels get them all before they're ready to pick. In a case like that, getting rid of the attractant would mean getting rid of the reason she wants them gone. Sure - she could pull out the hazelnut bush, but if the goal is more hazelnuts, getting rid of them wouldn't work very well.

I have no idea what the OP's mom and stepdad's place is like, but it's quite possible that the attractants that bring the "squirrels" back over and over are actually things they want and use. (For example, many people have problems with rabbits or deer raiding their food supply...but getting rid of the food supply isn't going to help, yk?)

I've never had to deal with serious pest problems, so I have no real opinion on what the stepdad should be doing about this issue. I do know that I have relatives who have a chronic rat problem, and they feel no compunction about using traps that kill them. They've tried blocking off access in many places, but they still get in...somewhere. They don't want rats in their house, yk?


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Cleaner and nicer how? We have a bear problem in my municipality. The recommendations on dealing with it are to only put garbage out on pickup day (okay - major PITA for some elderly people and some others, but reasonable), and to get rid of bird feeders, pick all fruit immediately (not always possible) and get rid of any berry bushes. Those things might all work, but they certainly don't make a person's place "nicer".

matter of opinion, I think it does look nicer when they don't leave garbage around. a fenced in yard I think would help with bears. while maybe not everyone can afford that, I don't think people can afford to keep buying traps for the rest of eternity either. A fenced in yard offers privacy and its a one time investment that pays off in multiple ways. That doesn't address the smaller critters though.

While this has nothing to do with making anything look nicer or cleaner, you can also put human hair clippings around the garden. or peppers or fragrant soaps. We also feed the neighbor hood cats. So they come into our backyard and get the other critters to stay away. Some people have dogs. (I realize feeding outdoor cats would NOT work in some situations, such as with bears or other bigger animals you have to worry about the cat food attracting)

another option is to put netting over the garden until the plants are bigger and can afford the occasional nibble from animals.

You can plant lavendar and sage in with your garden, which tends to keep squirrels away. Deer don't like calendulas, irises, lavender, basil, marigolds, and fleabane.

this is not an exhaustive list, but these are the things they suggest AFTER making your place "nice and clean" - it's just about keeping the yard nice. It takes work. Some people don't want to do that, I understand, but not wanting to is different from there being no other option but to kill the animal. If thats what is easier for you and what you choose to do then that is fine - but I don't buy the "*have* to kill them or let them take over or live in a less desirable environment" thing. And if the killing isn't working, it might be worth considering putting in more effort to keep the animals away using another method. Unless of course you also get enjoyment from killing them (sport hunting) in which case that is one reason someone might not want to try the other things. But if thats the case, consider that your yard will still be torn up in the meantime.

Quote:

They don't want rats in their house, yk?
if its a serious problem I can understand. As I said we had a mouse in our house once. It looked like someones pet mouse had escaped it was so cute and I used to leave food for it by the crack in the wall. I was sad when my kitten eventually killed it. But, yeah I understand not wanting rodents, I'm just saying that there ARE other options. Everyone will do what works for them - but the options are not kill or live in yuckiness. There are options to get rid of the rodents without killing them, should one choose to use those methods or choose to want to rid of the rodents. I'm just saying options exist, for people like me who don't want to kill the animals.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
matter of opinion, I think it does look nicer when they don't leave garbage around.

I think I was pretty clear that I wasn't referring to "leaving garbage around". People can't always pick fruit as soon as it's ripe. People _like_ to have blackberry bushes in their yards. I'm not talking about garbage. I'm talking about being expected to give up growing one's own food.

Quote:

a fenced in yard I think would help with bears. while maybe not everyone can afford that,
Lots of people here have fenced in yards. If a bear smells somthing, it can do a lot of damage to a fence. But, the other issue is that a person with a fenced-in yard, who has apple trees or blackberry vines inside their fences, is still attracting bears to the neighbourhood.

Quote:

I don't think people can afford to keep buying traps for the rest of eternity either. A fenced in yard offers privacy and its a one time investment that pays off in multiple ways. That doesn't address the smaller critters though.
No...and lots of people here also have trouble, to varying degrees, with squirrels, raccoons and skunks (no possums in this part of the world, though).

Quote:

We also feed the neighbor hood cats. So they come into our backyard and get the other critters to stay away. Some people have dogs. (I realize feeding outdoor cats would NOT work in some situations, such as with bears or other bigger animals you have to worry about the cat food attracting)
Yeah - that might work with the "squirrels" in the OP...although the cats would probably still kill them, so I'm not really seeing any moral/ethical superiority to that over trapping.

Quote:

another option is to put netting over the garden until the plants are bigger and can afford the occasional nibble from animals.

You can plant lavendar and sage in with your garden, which tends to keep squirrels away. Deer don't like calendulas, irises, lavender, basil, marigolds, and fleabane.

this is not an exhaustive list, but these are the things they suggest AFTER making your place "nice and clean" - it's just about keeping the yard nice. It takes work. Some people don't want to do that, I understand, but not wanting to is different from there being no other option but to kill the animal. If thats what is easier for you and what you choose to do then that is fine - but I don't buy the "*have* to kill them or let them take over or live in a less desirable environment" thing.
And, what about when people try all these methods, and they don't work?

Quote:

if its a serious problem I can understand. As I said we had a mouse in our house once. It looked like someones pet mouse had escaped it was so cute and I used to leave food for it by the crack in the wall. I was sad when my kitten eventually killed it. But, yeah I understand not wanting rodents, I'm just saying that there ARE other options. Everyone will do what works for them - but the options are not kill or live in yuckiness. There are options to get rid of the rodents without killing them, should one choose to use those methods or choose to want to rid of the rodents. I'm just saying options exist, for people like me who don't want to kill the animals.
I'd be interested in how to get rid of the rodents. I know they've tried several things, and worked hard at blocking house access. They still have rats - not cute little pet-type rats, either. They're both fairly calm about killing the rats, but neither one of them really enjoys dealing with the bodies. I'm sure they'd like another way - if it actually worked.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I think I was pretty clear that I wasn't referring to "leaving garbage around". People can't always pick fruit as soon as it's ripe. People _like_ to have blackberry bushes in their yards. I'm not talking about garbage. I'm talking about being expected to give up growing one's own food. '

but obviously picking fruit as soon as it's ripe has nothing to do with making the yard look nicer. It's something you can do. Some of the things are things you can do, and some of the things you can do make your yard look nicer.

Quote:

Yeah - that might work with the "squirrels" in the OP...although the cats would probably still kill them, so I'm not really seeing any moral/ethical superiority to that over trapping.
as I said, I have no problem with hunting. If the guy in the OP had killed the squirrel for food (and not in front of the kids as that is the bigger issue here - going against mama's rules) then I would feel differently. I still wouldn't beat it repeatedly in the head with a stick though.[/quote]

Quote:

And, what about when people try all these methods, and they don't work?
and what about the people who keep killing the animals even though THAT doesn't work? why do they still keep killing them? so, maybe my methods don't work and keep on not killing them. How is that different from killing not working and keeping on killing. If I dont want to kill an animal, which I don't, I WILL find another way. Thats MY choice and YES there ARE options for me. It's not a hopeless situation where I MUST kill the animal or otherwise find myself in a cruddy situation.

Quote:

I'd be interested in how to get rid of the rodents. I know they've tried several things, and worked hard at blocking house access. They still have rats - not cute little pet-type rats, either. They're both fairly calm about killing the rats, but neither one of them really enjoys dealing with the bodies. I'm sure they'd like another way - if it actually worked.
I'm honestly afraid to even offer any suggestions at this point, because I'm sure everything I say, no matter what it is, will be something they tried that didn't work (just like killing them isn't working apparently) I'm not trying to prove to you your family shouldn't kill animals. I'm just saying that since I dont want to kill animals I will find a way around my problems that don't involve killing them. You can think thats impossible if you want, it doesn't change anything for me though.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
but obviously picking fruit as soon as it's ripe has nothing to do with making the yard look nicer. It's something you can do. Some of the things are things you can do, and some of the things you can do make your yard look nicer.

Well, you can't do it if you're not always home...and lots of people have reasons to be away.

Quote:

I'm honestly afraid to even offer any suggestions at this point, because I'm sure everything I say, no matter what it is, will be something they tried that didn't work (just like killing them isn't working apparently) I'm not trying to prove to you your family shouldn't kill animals. I'm just saying that since I dont want to kill animals I will find a way around my problems that don't involve killing them. You can think thats impossible if you want, it doesn't change anything for me though.








I'm confused as to why you say killing the rats isn't working. They used to have multiple rats, and now they're down to one, maybe two, at a time. In any case, I never said it was impossible. I said I'd be interested in what the other methods are. I don't actually know everything they've tried, so I thought I'd pass the ideas on. You seem to think that I have some sort of vested interest in killing the rats, simply because I don't think it's a big deal. I don't. I'm not sure what I'd do in their situation, because having to actually dispose of a dead animal makes me sick. (This applies when I've lost pets, too.) These particular people tried a few things - I don't know what all of them were - and then went to "traps" that kill. That worked. That doesn't mean there wasn't something else that might have worked, too...it just means they didn't find something.

To be honest, most people I've known who have tried non-fatal methods of dealing with pests have had very, very limited luck. That doesn't mean I don't think it can work, though.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Well, you can't do it if you're not always home...and lots of people have reasons to be away.

I know... not sure why you are saying this again? I was only referring to the fact that I didn't think picking fruit had anything to do with the yard looking nicer and that its something you can do - not all things you can do are things that make the yard look nicer. OF COURSE not everyone is able to do EVERYTHING they say you "can"do. It's just one thing you can do if you are able to. I feel like you and I are having a different conversation at this point.

Quote:

You seem to think that I have some sort of vested interest in killing the rats, simply because I don't think it's a big deal.
no I don't.

Quote:

To be honest, most people I've known who have tried non-fatal methods of dealing with pests have had very, very limited luck. That doesn't mean I don't think it can work, though.
we have exact opposite experiences. it seems though, that even the fatal methods are limited in the luck department as well. I guess no matter what yo do, sometimes part of life is having other species living here too







:


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## sunshadow (May 17, 2009)

I think all you can do is talk to them about what happened and see how they feel about it. Then, give your opinion about it. They will have to ultimately figure out what they feel about it. I think it's probably going to depend on the child. As a child my dad stepped on a rat I had spotted on the floor. It really upset me. I was so mad at my dad and was too young to understand about pests even though he told me that was what it was. It was a very vivid memory that upset me for years and I was 3 I think when it happened.

Then slightly older I saw a cow get butchered at our neighbors when my mother wasn't home. No one ever talked to me about what I saw and it was really very disturbing to me. But, I should mention that I was a big softy with a heart for animals. The other kids I was with at the slaughter had no problems with it. I am not saying this to make you worry about your kids, just to pay attention to their way of dealing with it.

Also, there are good non-lethal ways of deterring pests. Call up a wildlife shelter and get some information to share with your kids.


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## sunshadow (May 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Well, you can't do it if you're not always home...and lots of people have reasons to be away.

I'm confused as to why you say killing the rats isn't working. They used to have multiple rats, and now they're down to one, maybe two, at a time. In any case, I never said it was impossible. I said I'd be interested in what the other methods are. I don't actually know everything they've tried, so I thought I'd pass the ideas on. You seem to think that I have some sort of vested interest in killing the rats, simply because I don't think it's a big deal. I don't. I'm not sure what I'd do in their situation, because having to actually dispose of a dead animal makes me sick. (This applies when I've lost pets, too.) These particular people tried a few things - I don't know what all of them were - and then went to "traps" that kill. That worked. That doesn't mean there wasn't something else that might have worked, too...it just means they didn't find something.

To be honest, most people I've known who have tried non-fatal methods of dealing with pests have had very, very limited luck. That doesn't mean I don't think it can work, though.


The problem really with using only fatal methods, or even methods that try to repel, is that it doesn't address why they are there. If you figure that out then you can keep them from coming back. Hopefully.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
and what about the people who keep killing the animals even though THAT doesn't work? why do they still keep killing them?

What makes you say it doesn't work? I have no idea whether the OP's stepdad's trapping efforts are actually helping reduce gopher damage on his property, but it seems reasonable that they might be. I know trapping mice in our house works. We start seeing and hearing signs of mice, we set a trap, we catch a mouse or two, then for a while we don't notice any more signs of mice. Only for a while, of course, because there are lots of mice in the fields and woods around our house, and nothing we do is going to change that as long the fields and woods are still there. So, yes, we have to keep setting traps, but that certainly doesn't mean the traps don't work.

(If you've only ever had one mouse in your house, you probably do live in a different universe than I do, or at least a different part of it.)


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

I asked and she said he's been doing this for a long time and still has the problem. I didnt assume. I asked first


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
(If you've only ever had one mouse in your house, you probably do live in a different universe than I do, or at least a different part of it.)

Maybe. I only lived there for maybe 3 months, so I can't say for sure that was the only mouse in all that houses history.







but it sure was cute, and the people I was renting the room from never had any mouse traps set during my stay there


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## number572 (Aug 25, 2004)

OP, sorry your kids had to witness that. I remember when I was having a few friends spend the night for my 9th birthday party and my stepdad and one of his friends were skinning the squrrels they'd hunted that day right outside. We (friends & I) opened the door to a bunch of bloody skinned squirrels laying in a pile and their skins hanging from our clothesline. barf.

I agree with pp's to maybe just talk with him & request that your kids not be taken to check the traps and also that you'll let him know when and if you want them to learn anything about hunting for food.

As a side... I currently have a raccoon mother & cubs in our attic. In my state, trap & release is outlawed this season (been told it varies species to species and year to year, depending on disease stats). Raccoons this year are to be euthanized upon catch. Companies that tell anyone they'll trap & relocate are not being truthful most of the time so its good to check your state laws to be certain. So, I'm letting the cubs get a few weeks older, then beginning to seal up entrance and exit ways with aluminum soffit & crawl space screening (leaving one entry/exit hole in the sofft & the crawl space), then spraying fox urine every few days and hanging lighted flashlights and leaving a few portable radios on full time until she leaves with her cubs to a new location. Then, you can test if they're still around by stuffing newspaper into the remaining open holes (use a broom or pole b'c they sleep right inside the holes and will bite you) and if the paper remains untouched for a day or two, then I'll screen the open holes closed. The photos you see online of raccoons digging thru roofing etc are from a female raccoon who has had her cubs trapped inside after someone sealed them inside when she was outside, so she did what she had to to re-enter. Almost 100% of the time raccoons, possums, etc will find an easier access location than to go to the trouble of dismantling a roof, unless its a mother whose babies are already trapped inside.

There are ways to avoid a kill situation, some people just want an immediate solution to their situation or they don't realize that there are other ways to drive pest animals away - or, they simply view pest animals as pests and NOT animals. But, I understand that this can't work for every situation. If there is a high population of pests already infesting your home and they are threatening harm to your family and food crop and you do not have the time or money to invest, I guess you do what you need to do??

Again, sorry your kids had to see that!


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
I asked and she said he's been doing this for a long time and still has the problem. I didnt assume. I asked first









Yeah, but just because the gophers haven't all disappeared forever, that doesn't mean killing them isn't working. We've been setting mouse traps ever since we moved into this house and I expect we'll keep setting them as long as we live here. That doesn't mean the traps aren't working. (I guess you could say they're not working to make all mice disappear from this area forever, but that's not what they're supposed to do. They're supposed to minimize mouse damage and contamination in our house, and that they do.)


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## Agatha_Ann (Apr 5, 2009)

I can tell you that in my situation (prarie dogs and gophers on the ranch) there is no other solution but to kill them if the general public and my family contiue to want to have meat on their tables. There is no way to get rid of all of them (aside from paving the pastures and then what do the cows and sheep eat?) but hunting keeps them at bay and their holes to a more managable number.

I've also seen a few people on this thread suggesting calling places like game and fish. If you were to do that where we live they would suggest shooting them the same way their own employees do. They literally take over and destroy the habitat for both native species and livestock.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Agatha_Ann* 
I can tell you that in my situation (prarie dogs and gophers on the ranch) there is no other solution but to kill them if the general public and my family contiue to want to have meat on their tables. There is no way to get rid of all of them (aside from paving the pastures and then what do the cows and sheep eat?) but hunting keeps them at bay and their holes to a more managable number.

I've also seen a few people on this thread suggesting calling places like game and fish. If you were to do that where we live they would suggest shooting them the same way their own employees do. They literally take over and destroy the habitat for both native species and livestock.

Just curious, but do all people who feel the need to kill to keep them at bay also feel the need to bash their head repeatedly with a stick in order to kill them? I think that's the part that really lost me on the whole "the guy was trying to be nice" and "he was _only_ protecting his land" I don't argue he was protecting his land, but I dont think that he was _only_ doing that. And with him doing it in front of the kids when their mother said not to makes it clear that he is the type of person that will kill an animal for more then just one reason.

My response would have been very different if the original post said
"My FIL love hunting and also has a pest problem. He traps them to get rid of them, but sometimes when the trap doesn't work he shoots them in the head to put them out of their misery. He respects my wishes not to do any hunting stuff around my kids though."

but beating the animal in the head over and over again with a stick?

You know what it reminds me of. When they kick chickens to "coralle" them before they kill them, when I have seen chickens be coralled without being kicked. you need to kill a pest, or kill your dinner, fine. You don't need to make it a drawn out painful process though. That's when I get bothered by it.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
Yeah, but just because the gophers haven't all disappeared forever, that doesn't mean killing them isn't working. We've been setting mouse traps ever since we moved into this house and I expect we'll keep setting them as long as we live here. That doesn't mean the traps aren't working. (I guess you could say they're not working to make all mice disappear from this area forever, but that's not what they're supposed to do. They're supposed to minimize mouse damage and contamination in our house, and that they do.)

and yet, one can minimize things like gophers without killing them, and still they choose to kill them. They say the humane methods dont work because they still get gophers, but if they still get gophers when killing them then the killing method still works because it reduced the gophers? why is there a double standard here? Killing works even if it doesn't work "all the way" but if not killing doesn't work all the way then it doesn't work and so that means they must switch to killing. I can see some people think killing works better - but I also see a lot of people who think this without ever trying the humane ways.


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## number572 (Aug 25, 2004)

FYI, some of this is a bit OT:

Just read some of the rest of this thread and wanted to add that, odd as it may sound, in the six yrs I've owned this house, I've never had to use pesticides regularly (and I live in the tropics in a foresty area, surrounded by live oaks and a creek)... I did use about four flea bombs last year when the entire hood was infested with fleas. I also tried diatomaceous earth in our garage and deck areas, which works well (use food grade only or its toxic!!) But other than that, I guess we have a nice eco balanced area, b'c re-homing spiders, keeping ALL food that is not canned or sealed bottles/jars in the fridge, keeping a clean house and outdoor areas using essential oils to clean (try mints, peppers and citrus oils for pest control) - with those few things, we don't need toxic pest controls.

I'm surprised myself, honestly, b'c we do not even get ants or roaches... unless we leave food out for a few days. We had a mouse(guessing more than one probably) a few years back and my sil was here and put one of those glue traps. I found the poor glued, yet alive, thing and had to drown it in the toilet & swore that I'd never do that to any creature again... so, luckily with the listed above, we've never had any more signs of mice. Just put all food in the fridge unless its canned or glass or plastic jars. Keep your house clean.

So, guess all I'm saying is that it is VERY possible to see one or two mice and then implement some humane cleanliness habits and then never have future problems. Its not totally unheard of, its my reality.







Thank the stars!! I cannot handle to see the mice half alive in traps! I still think about that mouse! From my experiences in this life so far, in talking with others about this topic, I guess some people are simply more sensitive to animal suffering... (wish people would understand that, truthfully). I honestly *feel* the animal's pain. It is absolutely equal to human pain to me. I understand that animals have their own form of pain but are just as frightened and in pain as we get when hurt. Inflicting that pain purposefully upon another sentient being does not settle with me. It makes me research further on humane ways of living in a balance. I wish that was more widely understood and implemented. This is NOT to say that others' views are not respectable in my mind... everyone lives their own reality and I agree that if someone feels that they need to trap & kill, then they do need to do that. We live diversely... we all need to respect each other's differing views. If literally everyone were to implement no-kill solutions, that could become a very big problem as well.


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## number572 (Aug 25, 2004)

was it something I said?? lol


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:

The worst problem I have had is once we had a mouse, but I liked the mouse and fed it and it was like a pet living in my wall. It was the only one I noticed. As far as pest problems, I've never had a problem keeping them away without killing them, and if killing them wasnt working I certainly wouldnt keep at it. But to each their own, I just have a hard buying it that the ONLY options are kill or let them take over completely or live in less then desirable living conditions. A lot of the changes in habitat they recommend suggest making your place a cleaner nicer place.
Ok we do kill mice in our house. As does our cat. Mice are not clean creatures and not something I want traipsing around my house stepping on everything my children touch. And who knows what kind of damage that mouse did to your walls.

At my house, where its very nice and clean, no garbage laying out btw, we have skunk issues. Skunks will kill cats, kill chickens, kill whatever. They're all over the entire area where I live. What would you suggest doing to discourage them to live there? We have an insane amount of squirrels as well that eat my garden and fruit trees. I certainly will not get rid of one of the best ways to feed my family.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

dble post


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alyantavid* 
Ok we do kill mice in our house. As does our cat. Mice are not clean creatures and not something I want traipsing around my house stepping on everything my children touch. And who knows what kind of damage that mouse did to your walls.

At my house, where its very nice and clean, no garbage laying out btw, we have skunk issues. Skunks will kill cats, kill chickens, kill whatever. They're all over the entire area where I live. What would you suggest doing to discourage them to live there? We have an insane amount of squirrels as well that eat my garden and fruit trees. I certainly will not get rid of one of the best ways to feed my family.

well 1, I didn't have children at the time. 2, it wasn't my house, 3, it was a row home, so getting rid of the mice wouldn't mean the neighbors did, so there was no sure fire way to protect damage to the walls. 4, as its's been pointed out, even when you kill them they still come back or sometimes stick around just in fewer numbers, so its not like if only I had killed it then no damage would ever be done inside those walls.

as it's been said, if you want to kill them fine (but why not find a humane way to do that? - not beat it in the head with a stick, which as I said was my problem with what the OP's step dad did, aside from killing an animal in front of her children against his wishes) and the reality is, some people who feel strongly about the idea of killing animals do find other ways to ward them off. If I had a mouse "problem" I would do something about it. But it was a cute mouse, and I was a little sad when the cat killed it. I would NEVER suggest someone get rid of the best ways to feed their family. I am not sure where you read that suggestion in my replies.

That is terrible you have a skunk problem, and I am sorry for that. You may choose to kill them to keep their numbers down. I would choose another way. I am sure you don't beat them in the head with a stick over and over and over again until they are bleeding out the nose while children watch though. I'm sure the people here who are talking about trapping are not also talking about slowly killing the animal when they rid of them.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:

well 1, I didn't have children at the time. 2, it wasn't my house
Awesome. And adults can get diseases from mice just as children can.

Quote:

as it's been said, if you want to kill them fine (but why not find a humane way to do that? - not beat it in the head with a stick, which as I said was my problem with what the OP's step dad did, aside from killing an animal in front of her children against his wishes) and the reality is, some people who feel strongly about the idea of killing animals do find other ways to ward them off.
I don't think anyone who kills pests around their home has a strong feeling about killing. They do it because it works. Is a live trap and then a bullet humane for skunks? I asked what you would recommend since you are so sure other ways would get rid of pests. But you haven't offered any suggestions other than keeping your home clean.

Quote:

I would NEVER suggest someone get rid of the best ways to feed their family. I am not sure where you read that suggestion in my replies.
You said change the habitat, clean the place up, etc. The fruit and vegetables are what attracts the squirrels, if I removed them, they wouldn't be quite so abundant. I guess you didn't outright say that, but thats what I deduced from what you were saying.

Quote:

I would choose another way.
Again, how? If other methods work better, please share?

For the record, if any animal, bird, creature of any kind is killed in front of my children, there will be an enormous dicussion about it. My kids know that we raise cows and pigs to eat. They know their food does not just grow out of a grocery store shelf. They know dh and I hunt and provide food from deer and elk. I don't think this has to be entirely damaging to children, it can incredibly educational. I won't let my kids grow up not knowing whats in their food or where it came from.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

I did offer other suggestions, I'm not going to repeat myself for a 3rd time. If you are truly interested, LOOK IT UP. Thats what I did. If you are okay with killing them than do that. I don't judge you for it, and you shouldn't care even if I did. My problem was that he was beating the squirrel/gopher whatever over and over again in the head. It's a little animal, surely there is a faster way to kill it then that.

As it's been said, the mice are still there even if you do kill them when you find them, sometimes they come back. I wasn't having tea with the mouse. I have an outdoor cat who surely kills all kind of animals when out and about. The disease argument wont hold since whether I killed it or not would make no difference that it had been there and that there could be more.

It sounds like the advice you need more is the advice to not make assumptions. As for your pest problem, loko through the rest of this thread, read some books, and googlecan be your friend. In the end, if you choose to kill them, your decision - but surely it can be done without repeatedly hitting the small animal over and over and over again, creating the slow death process, and surely it can be done not in the presenceof children whose families DONT want them to see it. Your children, fine - you explain it to them and you believe in that kind of thing. But would you do it front of your neighbors child, even after their parent said "we would prefer to keep the death of animals away from our children for the time being" ???

I have no problem hunting for food. I couldn't do it personally, and it bothered me to see a deer bleeding out into a bucket below hanging in a shed, but I still ate the venison when it was served to me (and I thought it was good). No one had me watch while they hit the deer in the head over and over again though. The dear was shot. I've seen smaller animals killed during a survival course I took with my husband. They managed the kill with one whack, not a succession of beat on the head with a stick. ( I watched, but there was no way I would have done it myself. I took the course because it was something important to my husband, though I don't imagine I'll ever get stuck in the wilderness)


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## Crunchie (Jan 9, 2007)

OP, sorry your kids had to see that.







I'd be rather, um, ticked off that my family member did that in front of my child. I agree, there was probably a better way to end the animal's life and, certainly, the kids didn't have to be around to see it.

A quick word on "humane" methods of dealing with nuisance animals: live trap and release is _not_ humane. It only makes humans feel better. Most of these kinds of animals--such as squirrels and raccoons--are _very_ territorial. Dropping them off 10 miles away in some wooded area--likely another member of the same specie's territory--usually only results in the trapped/released animal being attacked, driven off, and eventually starving to death. It is not humane at all.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
In the end, if you choose to kill them, your decision - but surely it can be done without repeatedly hitting the small animal over and over and over again, creating the slow death process...

I am wondering about this, and didn't get clarification about the traps. I did get the feeling the traps were supposed to kill them and this one survived. If the OP's stepdad didn't have a gun or anything with him (assuming that the trap would kill the animal), then I can see finishing it off this way, because going back to the house to get the gun, and heading back outside, would probably leave it suffering longer than just hitting it. It does seem strange that he had to hit it more than once, I'll admit. I'm not really clear on exactly what happened (re: the nature of the traps or the "squirrel" being hit multiple times), or why, from the OP.


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## SilverWillow (Dec 23, 2003)

facts from the Born Free site:

"In opposing use of traps, we are in good company. A 1978 national survey conducted for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service by Yale University showed that 78% of respondents opposed the use of steel-jawed leghold traps. A 1996 poll by the Animal Welfare Institute had similar results, with 74% of Americans opposed to leghold traps. The American Veterinarian Association, the American Animal Hospital Association, the World Veterinary Association, and the National Animal Control Association all agree that leghold traps are inhumane. Body-gripping traps are indiscriminate. Many companion dogs and cats have been caught in these dreadful devices, and even with the help of frantic humans, they have died in shock and pain because these traps are nearly impossible to open without the correct key device to release the locking mechanism. These traps can and often do catch non-target wildlife species of no value to fur trappers, including birds and even rare and endangered animals.

Fact Sheet: Types of Traps

Learn more about the types of traps still used in the U.S.
We define "body-gripping traps" as leghold traps; neck snares; leg or foot snares; and Conibear and other traps designed to instantly kill by crushing the neck or torso of the animal. Some such devices may kill instantly but often the victims suffer severe physical injury, psychological trauma, thirst, hypothermia, and predation.

Trappers have designed a class of "quick-kill" traps that supposedly kill instantly by slamming shut on an animal's body, crushing vital organs. Like all traps, they don't always work as planned, often with horrific results. The animal may enter a "quick-kill" trap the wrong way, and is partly crushed, and dies slowly. Snow and ice conditions can prevent proper closure. Aquatic mammals, like beavers, reflexively close off their air passages when submerged, and slowly suffocate while frantically trying to reach the surface, dying in terror without actually drowning.

More Than 80 Countries Have Banned the Leghold Trap
Some 89 countries have banned the leghold trap, recognizing that it is a barbarically cruel device, and that wildlife management goals can be achieved without it. Countries that still allow leghold traps (for example, in the U.S. only 8 states have banned or severely restricted its use) are the main fur-producing jurisdictions, under intense pressure from the international fur industry to continue use of leghold and body-gripping traps."

Horrible.


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## purplemoon (Sep 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alyantavid* 

For the record, if any animal, bird, creature of any kind is killed in front of my children, there will be an enormous dicussion about it. My kids know that we raise cows and pigs to eat. They know their food does not just grow out of a grocery store shelf. They know dh and I hunt and provide food from deer and elk. I don't think this has to be entirely damaging to children, it can incredibly educational. I won't let my kids grow up not knowing whats in their food or where it came from.

I let my children watch, on purpose, neighbors cleaning animals and fish they have captured to eat. Food doesn't come from grocery stores, it comes from life and I want them to know it and respect it. Very educational, and sometimes a catfish has to be beaten on the head. I explain that it is more humane.

However, while I grew up skinning rabbits and around hunting, I remember a rat who got out of the trap. He was running and my dad took a shovel to its head. It didn't die right away and he had to keep going and beating it in the head as now it was suffering. Me, a girl who was raised with hunting etc. screamed and cried. When killing an animal if it isn't done fast it is sad and scary.

I am all for killing vermin and pests and hunting of food and not keeping it hidden from children, but some things happen that are sad (the deer shot in the ear and screams, the gopher that just won't die, etc.) that are things to be discussed if witnessed. And if a parent doesn't want to share that information with their children this should be respected!


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Crunchie* 
OP, sorry your kids had to see that.







I'd be rather, um, ticked off that my family member did that in front of my child. I agree, there was probably a better way to end the animal's life and, certainly, the kids didn't have to be around to see it.

A quick word on "humane" methods of dealing with nuisance animals: live trap and release is _not_ humane. It only makes humans feel better. Most of these kinds of animals--such as squirrels and raccoons--are _very_ territorial. Dropping them off 10 miles away in some wooded area--likely another member of the same specie's territory--usually only results in the trapped/released animal being attacked, driven off, and eventually starving to death. It is not humane at all.

this is far from the only humane option offered in the thread, but I do agree to use this option in a humane and legal way you need to contact the authorities who can let you know the locations that are safe to release the trapped animal (safe for both the animal and for the person releasing the animal as well as it being a legal location to do so)


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purplemoon* 
And if a parent doesn't want to share that information with their children this should be respected!









:

I suspect some of my posts are coming off like I agree with the OP's stepdad, so I want to reiterate that I don't think it was even remotely okay to take the boys along when he knew the OP doesn't want them exposed to this.


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## rhubarbarin (May 2, 2008)

Quote:

Just curious, but do all people who feel the need to kill to keep them at bay also feel the need to bash their head repeatedly with a stick in order to kill them? I think that's the part that really lost me on the whole "the guy was trying to be nice" and "he was only protecting his land" I don't argue he was protecting his land, but I dont think that he was only doing that. And with him doing it in front of the kids when their mother said not to makes it clear that he is the type of person that will kill an animal for more then just one reason.
Bashing an animal's head in is the quickest and most humane way to kill without using bullets or electric charges. In this situation I don't think it was a good idea to try to shoot the squirrel at close range with a rifle while the kids were standing there. I am assuming he used the biggest stick he could find instead because he didn't want to do so. I also assume since it took him several blows to kill such a small animal that this isn't his usual method.

When I have to kill an animal (rarely since I don't hunt or trap) I twist the neck or smash the skull as I do not have any equipment that would work any faster. Breaking the neck by hand isn't an option with a wild animal since it will bite and scratch. This may be something that's personally scary or disgusting to some but I can assure you I do not enjoy it and I am trying to minimize pain, not cause it.

I absolutely think body-gripping traps are inhumane and disgusting. Before I had cats (who kill their prey in an unbelievably inhumane way, but I try not to think about it) I used live traps to catch mice. You can build your own 'live traps' easily using a plastic wastebasket with food in the bottom and ramp up the side - once they jump down, they can't jump back up. But live-trapping and releasing is not a long-term solution. We have a vast overpopulation of most 'pest' animals and killing them (live-trapping and a quick kill is my preference) is the only way to reduce your problems with them long-term.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

OP - Here's what I think. Take it or leave it.









Your Dad is a hunter. That's who he is. Hunting may very well be all he knows, and what he is proud of. He may not being doing these things to disrespect you, but out of total habit.

So, he leaves gun magazines and gun magazines (two different things here) lying around the house. Bullet shells in ziplocs. (You can reuse the shells - perhaps he collects them and does just that?) Maybe he doesn't just "put" these things out or "keep" them out for the boys to see - maybe they are always there and so much a part of his life and his home that he doesn't even really notice them, or think that they might be a problem. In other words, it may not be done to spite you.

Or, perhaps, he thinks (and rightfully so) that this is his home. He shouldn't have to hide everything when family comes over. I certainly don't make my hubby hide all his gun magazines and gun magazines







when guests come. There's nothing shameful in having them and no reason why he needs to conceal them. If people are uncomfy, they don't need to come back. Same with him carrying a weapon. If people don't like the fact that my DH is wearing his gun in his home when they visit, he shouldn't have to take it off - they just don't need to come back. (I'm not being snotty here).

As for the boys seeing what they saw, if this is all your dad knows - this hunting thing - maybe it was all just done in total innocence. He took the boys for a walk, along the way he checked his traps (and perhaps he wasn't even telling them he was checking them - he may have just glanced at them and moved on without making a big deal of it). Or he may have told them that the traps were there to kill the pests just as people use traps to kill mice and rats in their homes, etc. In other words, it wasn't a big deal to him and it probably didn't even dawn on him that it would be a big deal to you or to them (lots of men just don't think like women do.)

ANyway, then he came across the pitiful gopher. At that moment, perhaps his mind was only on ridding that animal of its suffering, and that's what took over. I know plenty a hunter and farmer who have no qualms killing animals but DO mind seeing a suffering one. He probably didn't think "Oh, here's a dying animal! Let me show the boys how fun and manly it is to beat the life out of one!" I'll bed he was more likely thinking "Oh, good God. The thing is suffering. Boys, this won't be pleasant and I'm sorry but this animal is in agony."

And *mommysarah5* : Multiple beatings with a stick doesn't equal being inhumane or enjoying what you're doing. It only means that the first swing wasn't hard enough or direct enough and now the animal is suffering even MORE, so better get the job done to put the animal out of its pain. If the stick wasn't very big, it isn't unreasonable AT ALL to think it may have taken a few hits. And it's not fair to presume he enjoyed it. As for sending them back to the house while he took care of it, maybe it wasn't safe to do with other traps in the area or who knows what.

I think we should presume the best of a person rather than the worse, esp when we cannot read hearts and know another's intent.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rhubarbarin* 
Bashing an animal's head in is the quickest and most humane way to kill without using bullets or electric charges. In this situation I don't think it was a good idea to try to shoot the squirrel at close range with a rifle while the kids were standing there.

but that just really goes back to why he brought the kids with him in the first place.







: What other methods are there, if bashing is the 3rd most humane way, I wonder? Because anything else I would consider torture and then death, not just killing.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
And *mommysarah5* : Multiple beatings with a stick doesn't equal being inhumane or enjoying what you're doing. It only means that the first swing wasn't hard enough or direct enough and now the animal is suffering even MORE, so better get the job done to put the animal out of its pain. If the stick wasn't very big, it isn't unreasonable AT ALL to think it may have taken a few hits. And it's not fair to presume he enjoyed it. As for sending them back to the house while he took care of it, maybe it wasn't safe to do with other traps in the area or who knows what.


get a bigger stick. don't bring the kids with you in the first place. don't bring children into a yard that so trapped it's dangerous for them to walk back to it themselves. Aside from that, your opinion is that beating a living thing multiple times with a stick to the death is not inhumane, but I disagree. I'm pretty sure they wont be changing the death penalty to beating with stick on head till death anytime soon, not that I think their current ways are humane either. I'm not saying her step dad is a bad guy just because I don't agree with the way he killed that animal, so I don't understand the relevance of assuming the best in people. I tend to think ALL people have good in them. And all animals too. That's just my opinion, and it's okay with me that not everyone agrees.

I'm sure he's a really great guy, despite the fact he showed animal traps to his step daughter's kids after she was clear with him that she didn't want them to see that stuff. Part of his life or not, he didn't need to show them that. And how convenient he waited to do so until she was out of the house. But my point is really only that there ARE other options, I respect that other people don't use them, and to be frank I don't care if no one wants to respect that I personally wont resort to killing an animal, and if they want to think that means I'm doomed to animals taking over my yard and house then they can think that all they want, but it simply isn't my reality and never will be, even if I am a tree hugging, animal loving, hippy freak about my approach to pest control


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

OP - Another thing I want to mention, is that you definitely should talk to them about what they saw. Even though you don't agree with hunting, and even if you think that the way he killed the animal was inhumane, to your children it could look like animal abuse if the purpose of the kill isn't explained to them. (you know, they see grandpa hitting an animal over the head with a stick till it's bleeding out the nose dead takes on a different meaning in the context of because he was killing them for tearing up the yard and the trap didn't work so he put it out of it's misery. Without knowing the latter, that very much would be animal abuse. (If your post had read a neighborhood killed trapped an animal and beat it over the head til it died then I think people would call that animal abuse - but since it was because he was trying to keep his yard nice looking then it wasn't animal abuse.) And of course, feel free to let them know those aren't the only options and not something you personally would do at your own home, but I think it takes on a different meaning if they understand why your step dad did that, instead of just seeing it be done. I don't know how much he explained to your kids during the process... so maybe he already covered those bases. Sorry your step dad even put you in that situation in the first place


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

I think it's possible that the multiple head bashings are being mis-interpreted. I know if I was killing an injured animal and a big stick was the most quickly available method, I would hit it hard enough the first time that it would probably die, however, since there is a chance it wouldn't die the first time I would strike multiple times without stopping rather than stopping, and potentially having the animal suffer while I decided whether it really was dead or not. Does that make any sense? What I'm getting at is that it is possible that the multiple whackings were for humane reasons, not out of incompetence or blood lust.


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## Chicky2 (May 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
OP - Here's what I think. Take it or leave it.









Your Dad is a hunter. That's who he is. Hunting may very well be all he knows, and what he is proud of. He may not being doing these things to disrespect you, but out of total habit.

So, he leaves gun magazines and gun magazines (two different things here) lying around the house. Bullet shells in ziplocs. (You can reuse the shells - perhaps he collects them and does just that?) Maybe he doesn't just "put" these things out or "keep" them out for the boys to see - maybe they are always there and so much a part of his life and his home that he doesn't even really notice them, or think that they might be a problem. In other words, it may not be done to spite you.

Or, perhaps, he thinks (and rightfully so) that this is his home. He shouldn't have to hide everything when family comes over. I certainly don't make my hubby hide all his gun magazines and gun magazines







when guests come. There's nothing shameful in having them and no reason why he needs to conceal them. If people are uncomfy, they don't need to come back. Same with him carrying a weapon. If people don't like the fact that my DH is wearing his gun in his home when they visit, he shouldn't have to take it off - they just don't need to come back. (I'm not being snotty here).

As for the boys seeing what they saw, if this is all your dad knows - this hunting thing - maybe it was all just done in total innocence. He took the boys for a walk, along the way he checked his traps (and perhaps he wasn't even telling them he was checking them - he may have just glanced at them and moved on without making a big deal of it). Or he may have told them that the traps were there to kill the pests just as people use traps to kill mice and rats in their homes, etc. In other words, it wasn't a big deal to him and it probably didn't even dawn on him that it would be a big deal to you or to them (lots of men just don't think like women do.)

ANyway, then he came across the pitiful gopher. At that moment, perhaps his mind was only on ridding that animal of its suffering, and that's what took over. I know plenty a hunter and farmer who have no qualms killing animals but DO mind seeing a suffering one. He probably didn't think "Oh, here's a dying animal! Let me show the boys how fun and manly it is to beat the life out of one!" I'll bed he was more likely thinking "Oh, good God. The thing is suffering. Boys, this won't be pleasant and I'm sorry but this animal is in agony."

And *mommysarah5* : Multiple beatings with a stick doesn't equal being inhumane or enjoying what you're doing. It only means that the first swing wasn't hard enough or direct enough and now the animal is suffering even MORE, so better get the job done to put the animal out of its pain. If the stick wasn't very big, it isn't unreasonable AT ALL to think it may have taken a few hits. And it's not fair to presume he enjoyed it. As for sending them back to the house while he took care of it, maybe it wasn't safe to do with other traps in the area or who knows what.

I think we should presume the best of a person rather than the worse, esp when we cannot read hearts and know another's intent.









So true. Every word.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *quietmama* 
First off, my mistake, I did some research and although my step-dad (Grandpa) calls them ground squirrels they are Pocket Gophers. Here's an image: Pocket Gopher. So, yes, they are definitely more harmful than ground squirrels.

They look a lot like a hamster.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *quietmama* 
There is a lot of background to my relationship with my step-dad that might help you understand why it seemed very inappropriate to me that he took the boys to check the traps and killed the gopher in front of them with a stick.

Growing up my step-dad has always been a very avid hunter. Deer, Elk, Cougar, Moose, Turkey. He lives in the middle of a National Forest and it's an itty-bitty town where 90% of the population are hunters. It's definitely one of the main reasons people live in this town. So, long ago, my step-dad and Mom (I call them my parents because my Dad passed away when I was 21) asked me to get a moose permit. In Idaho you can only get one moose permit per lifetime and my sisters, my Mom, and my Step-Dad all got moose permits and used them. My family eats mostly meats that they have hunted. I do not have a problem with people hunting responsibly for meat and I don't have a problem eating it but I never would be able to kill an animal myself. I've always had a very sensitive spot for animals and have never been one that could deal with witnessing an animals death. My parents, especially my step-dad, really wanted me to get a moose permit and I have always said "No Way." So, this was always "a thing" for my parents.

Whenever we go for visits there are all kinds of Gun Magazines laying around and my step-dad keeps the shells to his bullets so my boys can "play" with them. This is something I have asked him not to do but he seems to always have the magazines conveniently placed and the bullet shells in a nice zip-lock bag laying around. A little obvious.

I could go on and on about many things that he does to try and get the boys interested in hunting. Last time we were there I was gone for about 3 hours and I found out that Grandpa opened his gun safe for the boys to see his guns while I was gone.

I've talked to him about this and he knows that I do not want the boys interested in hunting and killing animals at this early of an age. Ideally, I don't want them interested at all but if when they get older, they take gun safety courses and are really wanting to learn to hunt then I will let them learn from Grandpa.

So, for this incident to happen the one time I leave the house is what really makes me upset. He does think we're "crazy liberals" (his words) and feels like the boys are missing out on an important part of childhood and that they'll be "real" boys if they experience hunting and killing.

I talked to my Mom on the phone last night and she was talking about our next visit and I did say, that we won't be able to come back if this was to happen again.

I know the boys are probably really confused about the situation because my dh and I have always talked about respecting animals. We talk about how animals have feelings. We talk about that they are born from a Mama just like the boys are born from a Mama. We really work hard in building compassion for all living things and showing them the connection of animals and feelings. The main reason we got our 8 chickens this summer is to teach the boys how to care for animals and how much love they can bring to our household.

So, I'm sure it's very conflicting to them to see a live animal hit multiple times with a stick until it's nose is bleeding. I understand that my step-dad did this to relieve this animal from the harm that the trap did but I do not agree that my boys should have been out there checking traps and witnessing an animal being killed with a stick.

The part that is so frustrating is that this seems to conveniently happen when I'm out of the house.

Does that help explain my feelings in my first post? I should have clarified more....

I appreciate all the ideas for talking with the boys about it. It's really helpful to hear ideas for how to explain Grandpa's behaviors compared to how our family feels about killing animals.

It does seem rather suspicious your step dad seems to coincidentally need to include your sons in his hunting/trapping when you're gone and unable to prevent the activity in their presence.


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## rhubarbarin (May 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
but that just really goes back to why he brought the kids with him in the first place.







: What other methods are there, if bashing is the 3rd most humane way, I wonder? Because anything else I would consider torture and then death, not just killing.

I think everyone who has responded to this thread agrees that what this man did was inappropriate. He knows his stepdaughter does not want her children to be exposed to animal death and in taking them to check his traps, he was choosing to go against her wishes and do it anyway. But I think the OP would have been as or nearly as upset if he had shot an animal in front of them, or if he had only had to club it once. The method isn't the issue, or even part of it IMO. The fact that an animal was killed in front of them when she had told him before she didn't want that to happen, is.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rhubarbarin* 
I think everyone who has responded to this thread agrees that what this man did was inappropriate. He knows his stepdaughter does not want her children to be exposed to animal death and in taking them to check his traps, he was choosing to go against her wishes and do it anyway. But I think the OP would have been as or nearly as upset if he had shot an animal in front of them, or if he had only had to club it once. The method isn't the issue, or even part of it IMO. The fact that an animal was killed in front of them when she had told him before she didn't want that to happen, is.

I totally agree, but I do think that it IS important to go over with the child the reasons why he did it. They saw it, and you can't take back what they saw, so now it DOES have to be explained. If they don't understand WHY he did that, then how does it look to them? What would you make out of someone doing that to an animal just for the heck of it? If the children weren't explained about it in the moment, then I do think it should be explained to them. And in doing that, the OP can also explain why she feels it wasnt the best way and what she thinks is the best way and share her family values with her children at that time. JMO of course.


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## rhubarbarin (May 2, 2008)

Yeah, there should be a lot of communication with the kids about this (sounded like the OP was already talking to them a lot). They are doubtless extremely confused about the whole thing although thankfully, from what the OP said it doesn't seem like they are traumatized. And it's most important that this doesn't happen again! If that means they can't spend unsupervised time with Grandpa that's a shame, but I wouldn't hesitate in this situation. He might not understand what a big deal this is since he's probably been killing animals since he was the same age as these kids, but he's going to have to learn to understand, and respect this family's boundaries.


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## lula (Feb 26, 2003)

I think that what the grandfather did was wrong. (at least in having his grandsons watch when he knew their parents would not approve or at least knew that there was a high probability that their parents would not be pleased) I don't think that killing pest animals is in itself a bad thing nor do I think that hitting it with a blunt object is the worst approach.

Off topic: If you wanted to put a "positive spin" on this situation this may be a good time to talk about invasive species and how one can increase the predator population in areas so that fewer incidents of this sort of activity have to occur. Call me crazy but I could use a few more foxes around here to get my local squirrels and I would jump for glee if the Canadian geese population could be checked a bit....Also a good time to talk about animals and disease I guess, horses and possums anybody? Zoonatic disease chats? Everything may be born of a mama but some animals are places where they ecologically shouldn't be and even though this may not be one of those times it is worth mentioning. Ugh, just writing it makes me think it may be easier to just deal with the killing of the trapped animal incident.

On a side note: Also I would personally be very wary of having domesticated cats running around my area but that could be because of my love of toads and tree frogs and the rather horrible incident involving my neighbor's stupid cat and the tree frog who lived by my front door. (after spending 3 years working on amphibian friendly environments and trying to get the frog levels to come back up in my area after being seriously depleted I am not pleased by people who let their cats free range through my yard, last time I checked this is a non-native predator, keep it in your space and don't feed it unless it's yours! Yes, I am the crazy frog lady...)


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## number572 (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lula* 

On a side note: Also I would personally be very wary of having domesticated cats running around my area but that could be because of my love of toads and tree frogs and the rather horrible incident involving my neighbor's stupid cat and the tree frog who lived by my front door. (after spending 3 years working on amphibian friendly environments and trying to get the frog levels to come back up in my area after being seriously depleted I am not pleased by people who let their cats free range through my yard, last time I checked this is a non-native predator, keep it in your space and don't feed it unless it's yours! Yes, I am the crazy frog lady...)

OT as well, I live in a state designated "bird sanctuary" and have seen (very sadly) firsthand very severe damage that domestic house cats cause (if let outside off leash). Many cat owners have no second thought about allowing a cat outside, thinking it cruel to keep it inside... but it has GREATLY effected our bird area. We have peacocks here, wild parakeets too and so many other neat birds. But by law, there is nothing currently that we can do to keep domestic cats from killing the babies of the protected species here. If a dog was doing the killing, it would have been captured and euthanized long long time ago. Its a loophole in the system... and our lovely mayor has cats, and she hates dogs. Its all SO obviously twisted.

I can't wait and will not stop fighting for the day when cat owners are held responsible for the damage they cause. And are not led into the belief that cats are not hunters and that they most definitely can and DO cause serious havoc upon a natural local ecosystem. Cat owners, really, check out leashes (as all other domesticated animals need by law - its a glitch in the system that cats haven't been outlawed running wild yet) and fenced in runs, etc... they cause serious damage when you let them out. They hunt. Unless you're on a farm and its their job to kill "pests", think about your local animal population.

Uh, sorry, this topic really bugs me b'c its blatant discrimination. Maybe a S/O needs to happen.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

I'm open minded. share with me why cats are the only living thing who should not be permitted to live outside. I like all animals personally, but I'm not God so I'm not going to sit around saying which ones should be allowed to live outside and which ones should be forced to stay inside.

I mean come on, how about the damage we humans do to our environment, and we do that from being INSIDE!


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

The problem with cats is that many, many, many are dumped off at parks and/or are not spayed/neutered and thus they breed and they THRIVE in the wild. There are undoutably thousands and quite possibly millions of stray, wild 'house cats' living in the USA which are decimating the song bird & amphibian populations. Decimating them. They kill birds not just to eat, but for fun. Because over the centuries they've been breed to be hunters and to hunt constantly. One housecat can kill several birds in a single day - multiply that out to a year and multiply that out to how many frigging cats are loose, and you realize why they are SUCH a problem when it comes to wildlife.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamadelbosque* 
The problem with cats is that many, many, many are dumped off at parks and/or are not spayed/neutered and thus they breed and they THRIVE in the wild. There are undoutably thousands and quite possibly millions of stray, wild 'house cats' living in the USA which are decimating the song bird & amphibian populations. Decimating them. They kill birds not just to eat, but for fun. Because over the centuries they've been breed to be hunters and to hunt constantly. One housecat can kill several birds in a single day - multiply that out to a year and multiply that out to how many frigging cats are loose, and you realize why they are SUCH a problem when it comes to wildlife.

hmmm, my cat came from a shelter, already spayed. she killed bugs and the occasional lizard that I've seen. I just don't think it's my place to decide who gets to live outside and who should be forced to live inside.


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
hmmm, my cat came from a shelter, already spayed. she killed bugs and the occasional lizard that I've seen. I just don't think it's my place to decide who gets to live outside and who should be forced to live inside.

Unless you're watching your cat 100% of the time that she's outside, or she's contained in some way, it's quite likely that she's killing a LOT more animals than you realise. I've seen documentaries where they attached a camera to a cat to find out how it spent a day, and it killed about a dozen animals in one day. The owners had been unaware that it killed anything. My parents used to let their cat out a lot and she was an ecological disaster. Since she didn't eat the short tailed shrews (they're venemous and give cats a sore stomach) it was quite obvious she was a prolific hunter. Short tailed shrews are beneficial where my parents live. The toads dissapeared too, and she used to kill bats occasionally.

By all means let your cat spend time outside, but if your cat is loose and unsupervised during that time you are supporting the indiscriminate killing of the local wildlife, including many beneficial species. If your child was running around killing the wildlife needlessly you would take steps to prevent it, so why not take similar steps with your cat.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rachelsmama* 
Unless you're watching your cat 100% of the time that she's outside, or she's contained in some way, it's quite likely that she's killing a LOT more animals than you realise. I've seen documentaries where they attached a camera to a cat to find out how it spent a day, and it killed about a dozen animals in one day. The owners had been unaware that it killed anything. My parents used to let their cat out a lot and she was an ecological disaster. Since she didn't eat the short tailed shrews (they're venemous and give cats a sore stomach) it was quite obvious she was a prolific hunter. Short tailed shrews are beneficial where my parents live. The toads dissapeared too, and she used to kill bats occasionally.

By all means let your cat spend time outside, but if your cat is loose and unsupervised during that time you are supporting the indiscriminate killing of the local wildlife, including many beneficial species. If your child was running around killing the wildlife needlessly you would take steps to prevent it, so why not take similar steps with your cat.

but you can't tell me why I should interfere with mother nature by forcing an animal to stay inside against its will? I love animals but my cat is not my child. I also don't have to force my children to stay inside with me, nor is it in a child's nature to kill animals. Cats are felines, just like cheetahs and tigers, but because they are smaller we should keep them all inside and suppress their nature, why? Like I said, I'm not God and I'm not doing to try to play his role. He created felines with that nature. Thats His choice.

I think of it this way. Initially my cat was an outdoor cat who was taken in by a shelter then re-homed to me. For months that cat ended up staying indoors, eventually she became an outdoor cat. She sits on the front porch and runs around in our yard and comes back. Sometimes she kills a lizard. She usually just lays by the door though. Shes killed less animals then the only outdoor cats. Indoor/Outdoor isn't good enough for you though. You think we should cage an animal that was supposed to be outside all the time. We domesticated them. They used to be outdoor animals, thats their nature, and we are trying to control nature so there can be more of the animals we like? I'd just as soon let nature run its own course. I would never keep a pet who didn't want to be in my home. I don't own them, they just live here.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
I'm open minded. share with me why cats are the only living thing who should not be permitted to live outside. I like all animals personally, but I'm not God so I'm not going to sit around saying which ones should be allowed to live outside and which ones should be forced to stay inside.

I mean come on, how about the damage we humans do to our environment, and we do that from being INSIDE!


This doesn't make sense to me. If you're willing to be open minded, then stop engaging in hyperbole. Cats are not the "only living thing" who people would prefer to be inside rather than outside, if they're not performing a pest controlling function. People get upset when dogs are chained up and live outside 100 percent of the time as well (and certain dogs are predatory as well). I haven't ever heard people saying that horses shouldn't live outside, or plants.  Or wild animals.

You may not be God, but when you are the owner of an animal, YOU are responsible for the impact that animal has. Cats should be belled. Dogs should be trained well and supervised around strange livestock. If you're sick of your pet gerbil or tarantula or snake, you need to find a real new home for it, not release it into the local environment.

People don't affect the environment from just being inside. The materials of their dwellings, the energy they consume to run their doodads, the wasteful or highly toxic farming methods and production methods used to bring them their cheap cheetos, endless garbage production, and demand for natural resources are what destroys the environment. Yes, we can do that inside and outside due to our culture and technology now, but I don't understand what your point is with that last statement. What is done on the inside certainly has an impact on the outside.

If you allow your cat to roam free, I can guarantee you she's probably killed for "fun" far more than the grandpa in the OP ever has. And because of her instincts, it's likely she's killed a greater variety of small creatures as well. Unless she's totally inept, just becuase you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Cats are not as big of a problem in our neighborhood because of our resident coyotes and bobcats--they get eaten. My kids found a cat skull and partial skeleton in our bushes this spring, probably the prey of the local bobcat who really loves our yard (it's mostly wild space with native shrubs and vegetation). So we don't have a significant feral cat population, and when I see lost or abandoned cats I try to scoop them up quickly so they don't become a snack (a friend of mine has a huge horse barn and loves to take in feral cats, or if they have a collar and/or I can feel around for a microchip I take them to the pound/humane society). I don't get to do that much anymore now that the bobcat's in residence. I don't blame the bobcat either, she's stunningly beautiful.

But why not just be realistic? Cats hunt. They are predators. They WILL prey on creatures outside, whether you like it or not. Belling them will help a bit, and is the responsible thing to do especially if you're NOT using them for pest control or making them find their own food. Between cats' real impact on local wildlife and the fact that if you have larger predators in your local habitat you're putting them at risk--that's why most humane society groups recommend indoor-only, for all the animals' protection, not because they think they're "Gods". Most people I know who have indoor-outdoor cats do so for convenience (less litter box concerns, some have even trained their cats to ONLy go outside) or because they got a cat that was already accustomed to being outside.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

I will not force my cat to do something that is against their natural design. Nature designed them a certain way. A cat who lives with me is not "owned" by me. I do not "own" God's creations. He does. My cat was an outdoor cat who is now and indoor-outdoor cat. She still uses her litterbox. I have never seen her leave the yard. Maybe she does, but conveniently every time I look out the porch window she is laying against the door. When she goes out the front she lays under this one bush. She's gotten lizards from our front yard. At any given moment I can say to the kids "where's the cat" and if she isn't inside they go to the door or window and point to her. We always know where she is. I'm not going to surpress my cat's instincts. Cats didnt ask to be domesticated. It's just not my place. I'm all for letting everything in nature do its natural thing. People hunt for food. Doesn't bother me. Cat's hunt for fun. Doesn't bother me. Birds poop wherever they feel like it. Doesn't bother me.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

and im also open minded to why a person should HAVE to kill pest animals. But no one has given me reason to believe that that is the ONLY option. Nor have they given me reason to believe that it was necessary for those particular children to bear witness to that, nor have they given me reason to believe that IN THOSE CHILDS EYES the experience was any different then animal abuse if the grandpa didnt explain at the time why he was doing it. Without "reason", hitting an animal in the head until they die would be animal abuse. If you subtract the "protecting my land" thing. So if the kids didn't know about that at the time, then in their eyes they were witnessing animal abuse.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Let's try to keep the thread on topic for the Parenting forum please.


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

So, quietmama, any updates about how your boys are handling what they saw?


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## number572 (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
I'm all for letting everything in nature do its natural thing.

Humans are animals. Animals protect their living area/nest/den/etc. Any creature that enters another's living space is probably going to be killed, sometimes for food. Humans have a higher understanding, so many of us will go out of the way to let the invasive animal live. "Nature doing its natural thing" would be that the human rid it's living area of invaders. If I were any other animal I'd either have to kill the raccoons in my house or be killed by them, or at the least... homeless.

I do go out of the way to rehome spiders, raccoons, etc. But I think expecting that everyone should think like that is a bit off. The main reason that I think the OP is mad is that her kids saw something that she has requested NOT happen in front of them.

Sorry about getting so OT with the post about cats... I just see alot more death caused by our neighborhood cats (which are not actually part of the natural ecosystem but do affect it greatly) than by neighbors protecting their property, since most use prevention and don't need to kill.


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