# Dont get GD. Am I the only one?



## carlasher (Sep 20, 2004)

_***I know this may cause some flames. Please do not transfer to the GD forum***_

For the past few years, I have been reading up on GD for children. Granted, I don't have any children yet. I only have a total of maybe 5 years in childcare taking care of mostly infants and toddlers.

I have been reading the GD forums to get more real life examples of GD and find it hard to "get it".

I _do not_ believe in hitting/spanking/whipping, etc though I was as a child. I do believe in time-outs, isolation, taking away privileges in addition to talking, reasoning explaining, etc though. I do not believe in negotiation, pleading, begging, letting the child "rule the roost" so-to-speak, having its way, etc.

I get the impression that GD is not only about non-abuse, but letting the child having its way. I may be looking into this totally backwards and if I am; what are the main principals of GD?

Oh and the term "spirited child". It doesn't know if the GD concept uses this title for such children, but I always thought it was a nicer way of saying "bratty child". I have cared for such children and to me; they just didn't have any boundaries at home. I volunteered at a school that fostered such behavior. Why is this now acceptable in today's society? Its like we go from one extreme to another.


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

I'm going to lurk on this one. I don't have an answer, as I don't go to the GD forum very much, but I would like to know more.


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## MommytoMJM (Aug 3, 2004)

:


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

"I do not believe in negotiation, "

well I'd have to say that in most cases (immediate physical harm being the exception) that negotiation and discussing behaviour with your child is GD and a positive thing to do. Just ordering your child doesn't teach him or her much except to set them up for being victims in life. The beauty of GD is that it accepts that your child is it's own person and as such deserves to have his ir her voice heard at least, even if they don't get the final say in stuff.

You surely don't want a child that just blindly does what he or she is told do you? One that when the pedophile down the street tells him or her to take off their chlothes they have no expereince saying no or setting their own boundries?


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## magster (May 4, 2004)

GD isn't permissive parenting, but I often see people (not here on mDC but in RL) say they practice GD while they simply just don't parent (in my opinion) or say yes to everything, thus ensuring a bratty child (man, what a run-on sentence! LOL).

GD is about being a present parent, respecting the child, modelling and setting good examples etc. I can't describe it.

Isn't the user called Mamaduck the resident expert on this subject?

And BTW - Congrats on your pregnancy.







It took us years and years (and ART







) to conceive.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Well, as the mother of a "spirited" child and a "normal" child, I'm a bit offended you would call my spirited dd a "brat".

All children are born with inherent personality traits and types. My dd was born screaming and just never stopped. Seriously. She'd cry and scream until 4 every morning when she was a babe. She was never quick to laugh or smile. Always extremely serious and INCREDIBLY sensitive and intense. Has an extremely difficult time controlling her emotions... anything can send her spiraling out of control.

My ds was raised the same way as our dd. He's so mellow! He was born quiet, he is very sensitive and sweet, very active and acts VERY much like a two year old now.... but an "AVERAGE" two year old, not a spirited one.

Once you've had one of each, you know for a fact they exist









As for GD...it's very hard. It's all about staying in the present moment with your child. Which means NOT losing control. NOT resorting to punishments because you're at your wits end. It means when you are in the physical presence of your child, you are really tuned in to them and you can talk *on their level*. You're not zoning out on the bills that need to get paid, you're not half-heartedly wading through your day waiting for bedtime. You are there and happy to be there, interacting with your child.

What's that got to do with discipline?

Everything. Most "disciplinary" problems disappear when parents are present with their children. The ones that do crop up are easy to tend to... make a little joke, redirect your child, and the problem is solved.

When kids "act out" on a regular basis, it's because there is a root that the parent is not tending to. So the parent just sits there and plucks the leaves off the weed and the same darn issues just crop up over and over and over again and the parent punishes over and over and over again. Kids can't identify their emotions and say, "Mommy, I understand you are busy and you have a lot of adult things to do, but I should be the most important thing in your life right now and I need you to stay present with me and then I'll stop acting out."

That's my .02 for what it's worth


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

OK, I'll take a stab at it, lol.

What GD means to me is that we work together as a family, we respect each other, we cooperate. I try to see my child's point of view and accomodate his preferences. This does not mean he runs wild and everybody else bends to his whim. That would be disrespectful to the other members of the family. But it's not "my way or the highway", either. We work to find solutions that are acceptable to everybody.

The key thing behind GD, to me, is raising children to be critical thinkers. I don't think this can be done if they are conditioned to blindly obey me as an authority figure. I am in charge, it is true. I do have the final say. But I try to gently guide him in the direction I want him to go, not rigidly force him to adhere to the path I set out for him.

I try to allow him to explore, to experience the natural consequences of his actions. IMO this helps him to learn about the world. For instance, if he dumps out the cat's water on the floor, I don't put him in time out, I give him a rag and we clean up the mess. Later on, if he breaks a neighbor's window, he will have to find a way to fix the situation for the neighbor, i.e. mowing lawns to raise money to pay for the new one, giving up a Saturday to help replace it, etc. He wouldn't be grounded. The problem with taking away toys, etc. for bad behavior is that the consequence doesn't naturally follow from the action. It doesn't really teach anything except that Mommy doesn't like it when I do X. The reality of the situation, hurt feelings, damaged property, etc. often is overlooked, and all the child gets is a feeling of resentment at having been caught and punished.

Anyway. That's my take on it, the abridged version anyway. I hope other people weigh in, my DS is only 2 and I have a lon way to go on my disciplinary journey.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

First of all the term Spirited Child refers to a personality type that's inborn. Certainly does not refer to a spoiled child, because there are some spoiled children I know who are calm and quietly manipulative. It does not refer to a child who has lots of tantrums or is out of control, either. It describes a child who is high-needs, high energy, very bright and thinks beyond the rules, questions everything. Such children often get overwhelmed and have trouble coping in busy environments, and they have a physical need to be active.

My "spirited child" has turned into a preschooler with strongly suspected Sensory Itegration Dysfunction. Her doctors, her family, my friends, and her teacher all know she's different. SID is a physical condition involving the nerve cells and the central processing center of the brain. Many spirited children turn out later to have some form of SID. Many others just have a high-energy nature. (My baby also has been diagnosed with SID-- runs in dh's family.)

About discipline-- you are always the best expert before your child comes along!







Most GD parents set boundaries and enforce them with some kind of natural consequence. Such as, you hit your brother with that toy, so the toy gets taken away. Then you try to figure out why he's beating up on brother in the first place and try to solve that issue or at least get him to switch gears and cure the boredom. It's about teaching real life consequences.

I think GD is *hard*. I don't always have a sense of humor or the creativity to come up with a solution that's better than sending her to her room. But the times that I do, I usually get a response and everyone's happy. I'm not afraid of my child being angry at me because I said no to her and am sticking by it. I have led her out of the grocery store kicking and screaming more times than I can count after she refused to compromise or follow the rules (such as not tearing price tags off the shelf). Later I realize she was probaby too tired to go shopping and I should have gone at a different time.

There are people who let their kids get away with anything and call it GD but the majority of moms try very hard to raise their children with manners and good citizenship.

Darshani


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

I am curious - why don't you want this in the GD forum? It seems to me that if you are interested in learning about it, that would be the logical place to go.


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## Lousli (Nov 4, 2003)

I'm wondering about GD too. We definately do not spank or hit EVER, but we have been resorting to consequences and time-outs. We've tried reasoning with our daughter, and logical consequences such as famousmockingbird describes. But what do you do when your child does something for which there is no logical consequence? Such as, ask for a cookie, and when you explain, calmly, gently, that we're going to eat some healthy food now and the cookie is for dessert, she hits you. There really isn't a logical consequence, IMO, for hitting, biting, etc. I can tell her, "Now you don't get to have a cookie at all." but that sends her into a huge rage/temper tantrum spiral, and by the time the consequence is enforced, she's forgotten why she isn't allowed to have the cookie. She's three.

This morning, for example, she completely flipped out when we were getting ready for preschool. She really likes her Montessori preschool, and is often at the door saying, "let's go!" while I'm still trying to tie my shoes or brush my teeth. Today when I asked her to put on some clothes so we could go, she started screaming, wouldn't talk to me about why, and pretty much didn't stop for about 90 minutes, when I nursed her and she fell asleep. She woke up cheerful and didn't seem tired. I have absolutely no idea what triggered this outburst, and no idea how I would have handled it in a GD way.

So, not to hijiack the thread or anything (too late!) but how do you deal with hitting, toddler tantrums, etc.? I'd really like to reason with her, but she sees no reason at those times. She just yells at me and flails around.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carlasher*
I have been reading the GD forums to get more real life examples of GD and find it hard to "get it".

I find it easier in practice than in theory.

Quote:

I do not believe in negotiation, pleading, begging, letting the child "rule the roost" so-to-speak, having its way, etc.
I use none of these things when parenting with GD. Not a one. Nor do I isolate or "take" things away as punishment. It simply never works for us. My child definitely does not rule. But since I treat him like a person, he is becoming a great one







I agree with being present in the moment. Usually we can head a problem off at the start, but never does he rule me or his father.









Well, let me amend my statement..we do negotiate if it comes to that. But my DS is only 21 months so we do not usually have to use this tatic. Maybe when he is older







I cannot speak from experience here. I never plead or beg, I do not have to.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

I have felt/feel that way. I asked about it in the GD forum and got some pretty good answers although sometimes I still feel as if yana rules teh world. Just her, the other two act pretty okay.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland*
As for GD...it's very hard. It's all about staying in the present moment with your child. Which means NOT losing control. NOT resorting to punishments because you're at your wits end. It means when you are in the physical presence of your child, you are really tuned in to them and you can talk *on their level*. You're not zoning out on the bills that need to get paid, you're not half-heartedly wading through your day waiting for bedtime. You are there and happy to be there, interacting with your child.

What's that got to do with discipline?

Everything. Most "disciplinary" problems disappear when parents are present with their children. The ones that do crop up are easy to tend to... make a little joke, redirect your child, and the problem is solved.

When kids "act out" on a regular basis, it's because there is a root that the parent is not tending to. So the parent just sits there and plucks the leaves off the weed and the same darn issues just crop up over and over and over again and the parent punishes over and over and over again. Kids can't identify their emotions and say, "Mommy, I understand you are busy and you have a lot of adult things to do, but I should be the most important thing in your life right now and I need you to stay present with me and then I'll stop acting out."

Very well said. And I definitely agree that my problems generally disappear when I am present w/ my son


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)




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## carlasher (Sep 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
I am curious - why don't you want this in the GD forum? It seems to me that if you are interested in learning about it, that would be the logical place to go.

I guess because I didnt want to step on anybody or to sound trollish. I rather _keep it peaceful on that board.

I am enjoying reading the responses so far.







_


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## Lila Sue (Oct 23, 2004)

As far as the cookie goes, I don't see the problem as her not being allowed to have dessert first, I see the problem as her hitting you. At our house, the consequence of hitting is that I won't engage in further negotiation or discussion or anything until the person who has hit has calmed down and shown remorse. Sometimes three year olds need to be shown how to express anger appropriately. Sometimes they need help calming down. Sometimes they resist the help, and then I say, "I'll be in the living room if you need me," and I walk away. I won't be an audience to a tantrum.

At that point, I would also take away the option of having a cookie, but I wouldn't metion it and if she asked, I'd be very matter-of-fact. If pressed, I'd say that sweets sometimes make it hard for us to make good choices, and that now is not a good time to have sweets. I'd also let her know that she could have a cookie later in the day or tomorrow.

And as far as the OP--I don't hit and I use time-outs sparingly--as a time to sit and collect oneself before rejoining the group--but I don't really "get" GD as it's presented either. I definately see more GD kids who are overwhelmed with a lack of boundaries than GD kids who seem to be parented sensitively.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

So here's how I look at it:

Gentle=no hitting or physical punishments. On that, everyone in the GD forum agrees. Also no psychological stuff like belittling, yelling at (it's not the yelling but the yelling _at_, you get me) blaming, that kind of thing.

Some folks also think it should mean NO punishments--no time out, no revoking privileges. I am starting to move into this camp tentatively.

Because discipline=assisting the child to develop self-discipline, independent moral thinking. Of course discipline also = maintaining good behavior as developmentally/age appropriate.

My goal is to raise a child who can make good decisions and behave well, and can do so increasingly independently.

I follow some of the moms here who are 100% no punishment but also don't tolerate any bad behavior. They are tireless about interrupting bad behavior and pursuing new ways of teaching their children and empowering them to behave really well. (Meaning not only decorously, but ethically.)

This is my vision for myself. I know it will be really hard for me because I was raised by an anxious person who finds it hard to trust that I (or anyone, really!) will do the right thing without her intervention. She was also a hitter.

Anyway I named myself Captain Optimism for a lot of reasons. I want to have a spirit of optimism about my child and his future world, and about my ability to do gentle discipline so that he grows up resilient, ethical, kind.


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## goatlady (Apr 25, 2004)

ArduinnaThe beauty of GD is that it accepts that your child is it's own person and as such deserves to have his ir her voice heard at least said:


> I love that. Beautifully put. :Clap
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## sagewinna (Nov 19, 2001)

I want my kids to learn self-discipline, not "do the right thing" because they don't want to be punished.

I want my kids to think about their actions and how they effect others.

I want my kids to feel safe with me, even when they are having a hard time with their emotions. I want to show them ways to deal with emotions in a healthy way.

I want them to negotiate with each other and come up with something that works for everyone involved. I think that starts with giving them an example of how that works.


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## candipooh (Jun 22, 2004)

I am still working on the GD part of things so I don't have much to say on that but the spirited child part I could go on and on about.
I SO agree that you really do not know what it is like until you have one. You really don't. My oldest is spirited. She was as an infant and is just as sporitrd at almost 6. When she was about 18 months old I found a book "How to raise your spiruted child" (or something like that) Lightbulb turned on. They were describing my daughter. Spirited children are MORE. They are more of everything. More happy, more sad, more energitic, more crazy, more sensative, more funny, just plain more. They are born that way. *Parents do not make them that way.* They will also be spirited adults as well. My dh is living proff of that, LOL. My dd is a lot like her daddy. Just look at different adults. You can pipck out some that are more spirited.
Nature vs. nuture. That is always the big question isn't it.
I am sure that some parents use the word spirited when describing thir child who is a brat but that does not mean that all spirited children ARE brats.

I had people see my spirited baby and tell me "you should do______ more and she will ____" just fill in the blanks. They can be so clueless. I am glad that I had my spirited brother so I knew that it wasn't my bad parenting that made her the way she was.
And you know what. I would change her for the world. All the sleepless nights, all the trouble she gi\ot into as a toddler. (and I am sure she will be an interesting teen) Because the joy that also comes from a spirited child is a beyond compair. I laugh with her every day. She is so funny.
My 2dn dd hasthe same parents, is raised the same and is a total princess. Not at all like her older sis. Still a joy but very different than my spirited one.

I almost wish you a spirited child so you can see :LOL

no time to re-read for spell check.....kids need me.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I'm one of those way-out-there parents who avoids any kind pf punishment (including loss of "privileges", punitive time-outs, "consequences", etc). I work towards finding solutions that work for both of us. It is a lot of work, especially with a young child, but now that my daughter is almost 12 I've found that the rewards are incredible. I can trust my daughter to act with integrity and compassion even when no one is checking up on her. I can ask her to go above and beyond what might "normally" be expected, and she comes through.

On the other hand, I don't see myself as a pushover. I'm willing to work towards resolving a situation as long as the other person is working towards the same goal. I'm not willing to beg my child to do something, though. I strongly agree with candiland that many factors can lead to "acting out'" (hunger, fatigue, lack of coping skills, being overwhelmed/overstimulated, boredom, and more) and part of good parent ing is being aware of those factors and how they impact a child's behavior, and doing what one can to avoid and/or cope with them.

I believe that kids do the best they can with the tools they have, and that POV has served me well.

Dar


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

I'm really enjoying this thread. Occasionally, I'll hop over to the GD board to see what's going on there, but I haven't really formed an opinion on how I"ll handle certain situations when they arise. Maybe some of you GD moms can help. I understand what you are saying about children and how much they can developmentally handle, and about unmet needs, but what do you do to a child who has deliberately and willfully done something they know is wrong? I believe that this needs to be punished in some way. How do you do that and adhere to your GD principles?

As for me with my future children, I want to GD them. But I think a lot of times the focus is more on the "G" than the "D". What are you trying to accomplish with the discipline? I know that for me, I want my children to be self disciplined, and behanve within the bounds of society's manners and ethics. I also want them to stand up for themselves, think outside the box, and challenge authority. But I don't want them to challenge MY authority!

I like whoever was talking about working within the bounds of the family, and being cooperative.

I don't know. I guess you can tell from my post that discipline is one thing I haven't totally worked out yet.


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Hmmm. Agreeing with the poster who pointed out that we're all experts until we have our own.









Agreeing with the poster(s) who pointed out that 'spirited' and 'brat' are two totally different things. Totally. Apples & pretzels.

And also hugely agreeing that mamaduck is the poster with the most-er on this subject. Might someone maybe take the time to PM her about this thread? Would love to read her response ...

I do not believe that GD means no consequences (logical or otherwise :LOL). It is very possible to even be quite strict, yet still be loyal to GD.

No physical or verbal violence is what GD is.
And beyond that, it's all a matter of style.

Just MOHO.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Persephone*
I understand what you are saying about children and how much they can developmentally handle, and about unmet needs, but what do you do to a child who has deliberately and willfully done something they know is wrong? I believe that this needs to be punished in some way. How do you do that and adhere to your GD principles?

I don't punish.

As far as what to do - it depends on why the child has done it. Really, it just doesn't come up much at all. Why deliverately do something you know is wrong if you have a parent willing to help you find a way to do the things you want to do? I found ways for Rain to do pretty much all of what she wanted to do, really. We had - have - a pretty good system of negotiation going, it's basically automatic now.

When it has happened, mostly it was an anger/revenge thing, where my kid felt like she hadn't been listened to or hadn't had her needs met earlier and was acting out in response to that. The message was "listen to me". I tried to acknowledge the goal behind the action, make it clear that the action wasn't okay with me, and find a way to prevent it from happening in the future.

Punishment, I think, leads to resentment and anger towards the parent, which leads to more acting out, and it's a vicious circle. Empathy and problem-solving lead to empathy and problem-solving. I can make it clear that a behavior is not acceptable to me without punishment.

Is there a real-life situation, maybe, that you could give as an example?

I don't presume to define gentle discipline. Or, rather, I'm pretty clear that the way I discipline is gentle and respectful, but I don't think the official MDC definition goes as far as my way does.

Dar


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
What GD means to me is that we work together as a family, we respect each other, we cooperate. I try to see my child's point of view and accomodate his preferences. This does not mean he runs wild and everybody else bends to his whim. That would be disrespectful to the other members of the family. But it's not "my way or the highway", either. We work to find solutions that are acceptable to everybody.

The key thing behind GD, to me, is raising children to be critical thinkers. I don't think this can be done if they are conditioned to blindly obey me as an authority figure.

 *ITA







I think we are GD as well as some other stuff (TCS, etc) It comes down to the fact that I believe children are as deserving of respect as adults. Our family is rooted firmly in respect. Respect for ourselves and for each other. Hitting (not saying anyone has condoned that...) grounding, time out, and removing priveleges is *not* respectful to me, and IMO does not lend itself to a healthy, cooperative atmosphere. I do not seek to control my children, I seek (among other things) to guide my children to control themselves.

There is no punishment in our family. None. There is much discussion, and problem solving (redirection, and compromise when they were younger). I treat them as I wish to be treated. Many people consider us to be "permissive parents", though I understand there is debate over just what that means. We have no set limits or rules about food, media, or chores. The children have no bedtime. They are guided by us and encouraged to make decisions based on information, gut feelings, and so on. In GD I honestly think respect is the key issue.*


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Quote:

I almost wish you a spirited child so you can see :LOL
*-candipooh*








: Oh...lordylordylordy....I guess this is the closest to a flame this thread has come, thank goodness...

I'm no expert...my son's only 13 months...but I expected a "spirited" child...was terrified of one, really, and thought for sure he would be one....
To my surprise, though, he's really mellow....
To me, GD, like someone said before, is basically about not being physically or verbally or emotionally violent.
It's mostly about trying to get into your child's head and seeing where they're coming from...
Like, right now, my little guy sees the area under the computer as being "the secret of the universe"....he's so fascinated it hurts...I'm pretty sure in his mind, if he could just unplug something under there, all of life's mysteries would magically unveil...
Am I going to yell or smack him for going into "NO!" world?
Nope...I dig where he's coming from...
Does it make him mad that he can't push the buttons on the power strip?
Yup...madder than hell...I really feel bad for him about it, too...and, me being the brilliant mom I am (Ha!)...with a little forethought and patience I can usually fascinate him with something else....
I also mix in cc type methods...like, in the kitchen we have a shakey bakers rack with a couple of light weight cake pans on the top shelf that might fall off if he shakes it...
Well..every once in a while he gets to shaking it...I say firmly "dangerous"...he knows I'm telling him to stop but keeps on...CRASH...he's only a little freaked out by it..but he knows when I say "dangerous" it means impending somethingoranother...
And a couple of times in the bath he's grabbed the soap and gone to chew on it...I say "Icky!" firmly....well...let's just say that he trusts me on most things...
Now, before I gave birth, I planned on going with the "train up a child" Pearl method...
Mommy vs. Baby mentality...
Once he was here, though...no way...no need...
So, GD is a lot of different things to a lot of different people...
But the idea is simple...no need to traumatize a kid with violence...
Kids learn without being traumatized at all...
They're actually really good at learning...surprisingly so...
Thus far for me, anyway....


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I have some conflicts with a few approaches used within GD but I would say that I generally find the advice to be an effective and positive form of discipline.

I use lots of 'natural' or 'logical' consequences. This may actually involve taking away privileges or even a time-out but it looks a touch different. I might say that we can't stay at a playdate if the behavior is not fun for all of the people there or say that I need to have a minute alone in the bathroom if DC is really pushing my buttons. Sometimes, GD seems like just a matter of semantics but there is often a key difference, which is the logical, natural consequence for the actions.

Another thing that GD can do quite well (although I'd like to see more of this) is take the individual child into consideration. This is what is missing when you discuss how you might discipline your child ~ you don't know her/him yet. Yes, GD is a great choice but that has to be tailored to your child (or to each child in the care center).

Non-punitive time-outs (do a search here on MDC) are used very effectively and positively with some children but not others. Some children are comforted with lengthy explanations while others need physical help with keeping boundaries ~ some need both and etc.

One last thing, I think you must be very careful about judging a child and their home life as a care giver because the data you collect in your experience is not well rounded, ime. This is just a personal reaction as a parent to your last paragraph.


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## urklemama (May 4, 2003)

Ah, Bay Area parenting, or lack of it.

Someone upthread said something about people saying they're doing GD but actually completely absenting themselves? Imagine a whole city like that. I'm not exaggerating. Carslasher and I are both in the Rotten Child Capital of the Universe. When you're constantly dealing with families who have produced children who really have no idea that other people have needs, it's easy to blame it on GD. I don't blame it on GD, btw, b/c I know what real GD looks like. But when you're surrounded by people who advocate GD ideals and whose children are completely, totally impossible, it's easy to miss that these parents are talking the talk but not walking the walk.


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## whatever (May 4, 2004)

My husband and I practice GD, I think, in that we treat our son like an equal member of the family. We do really bend over backwards to accomodate him, and make sure he gets to do some of the things he wants to do every day, but this is very much dependent on good behaviour and showing respect for others.

Since he is a lively spirited child it is difficult at times, especially if we are in the shopping centre, and I need to get groceries and he needs to run and jump! We have to negotiate a lot, and quite often he will come up with a reasonable compromise - it surprises me how much social nous the little guy has already - way more than me ;-).

I was brought up in a very punitive way, with no negotiation - my needs were totally subordinate to those of my parents. And let me tewll you what a frustrating experience life has been for me. It is incredibly difficult for me to make my needs known, and I get so angry that I have ended up losing jobs and friends because of it because I do not know how to express myself without hurting other people.

I've had therapy, (costing me thousands of pounds) and thankfully managed to resolve some of the issues. But here I am at 35, trying to get some kind of career going when I have very little to show in my professional life, and very little employment history that will inspire confidence in a prospective employer. Not to sound bitter, but I do know that the way that I was brought up has caused me a lot of problems simply because I wasn't allowed to express myself and so never learned how to deal with my feelings.

So, um, yes, negotiation may seem like a pain when kids are young, but I firmly believe that it is a key step in development and it is something that's needed in order to live an independent healthy life.

Which is not to say that kids should be allowed to run riot wherever they are or treat people with disrespect. That is not being a conscientous parent IMO.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Hey there.

I offer this as I have an angel. I did not get handed an angel, I created one - big difference. She was a VERY hard infant for a long time.

You cannot discipline your child for very long. They grow up. The goal must always be to instill self-discipline. I prefer this term to "discipline". I have always warned my DD about an impending problem, and then let her be and find out for herself. I have rarely had it occur with dangerous things as she doesn't have access to such things. She has been scratched by a cat, fallen off a chair, slipped on wet flooring, the whole gambit. She is a cautious person, needless to say.

That is what "consequences" are, and just how well they work for you is how far you are willing to stretch your own fears.

I have raised my voice at DD once in her two and a half years. Another important thing to avoid, although I more than understand how hard it can be to avoid.

I asked someone very wise once "is giving her what she wants during a tantrum setting myself up for problems or allowing myself to be manipulated?" and the response shook me, "When you are angry or frustrated with your child because they won't do what you want, if they then do what you want - have you manipulated them?"
The answer to that isn't the point, the power in it is that we need to wear the child's shoes. We need to remember childhood and all the promises we made ourselves as children of what we would do when we were parents. There was wisdom in that. Children often feel misunderstood - remember that? Children are rarely really HEARD - even when they can communicate as they grow. Gentle discipline is essential if we are to change the world into the place we would rather be living in. What we do now will be what we live in later.

If we always do what we've always done, we'll always be where we are - author forgotten.

I push and strive and bend over backwards to help parents discipline gently - for it is MY future they are messing with, just as my children are their future. Lets all work together here and BE GENTLE with our future.


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## wildbozmommy (Feb 18, 2004)

I had never even heard of this concept until I started posting here, which is strange because I always read Mothering magazine, even when my oldest, who is now 15 yo, was a toddler. Speaking of my oldest, he was/is a spirited child/teenager. For us, it was not about punishment as much as it was about changing behavior. I always felt that while behavior traits are inborn, acting upon them is another, especially when it involved issues of safety, respect, and self-control. For this child of mine, harsh discipline did not change his behavior, and in fact, made it worse at times. Now that he is a teen, I can see, in retrospect, that it is important to teach the characteristics that we want our children to learn. Punishing them because they slip up isn't always the best option. However, I do think that children need firm boundaries and consequences when they cross the boundaries. By consequences, I believe that natural consequences, when appropriate, do help the child to see how his or her behavior affects the world around him/her. Children are born egocentric and it is imperative that we, as parents, show them that it's not "all about them." Punishments that are not logical consequences really don't serve this purpose. I guess what I am trying to say is that there is a fine line we walk as parents between harsh illogical punishments and nothing at all.


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## Pam_and_Abigail (Dec 2, 2002)

Well, I am still struggling with how best to implement GD with my 2 year old. We don't punish arbitrarily, but if she's hitting someone with an object we take it away. Time-outs have happened a few times when she was endangering the safety of another child, but they're really time-in because she's usually on a lap.
Dar, I'm wondering more about how you did things when your dd was younger? When you are letting her know that a certain act is inappropriate, do you just do that verbally? I feel sometimes that verbally correcting my dd is not enough.

Anyway to answer the OP, GD for me is about teaching respect, and I hope, self-discipline. One big thing of mine is grabbing. I have been careful to not grab things from dd unless she was in immediate danger. This has been rewarding, in that even when she was a year, if she took something from another child, she would usually give it back when I asked. I don't grab it from her and give it back myself. I let her do it. A few times I have had to 'help' her return the item.
DD is a valued member of our family, and her opinion counts.


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

*Negotiating*

I tend to turn a jaundiced eye at this, at least when very young children are concerned. From my own experience, trying to reason with a three year old is an exercise in futility, at least over items in which I am unwilling to compromise, such as safety. And I've seen it degenerate into a parent pleading with her child to behave. I've seen this many, many times, as a matter of fact, and it isn't pretty.

I've also seen self-professed GD parents use other people to be the bad guy to get their kids to behave. Example: a friend and her ds were at our house. It was time to go home and the child didn't want to leave. After much pleading, the parent told her child that _my dh was mad at him for not wanting to go home._ Totally manipulative and unfair, yet it met her definition of GD. Another time in a similar situation, this parent told her child that [/i]our dog would bite him if he didn't get in the car.[/i] That was the last time we had them over.

Negotiation does work for older children I think. Ds, who is 12, asked me if he could skip school today. It was an "activity" day with a dance, and he didn't want to deal with that. I agreed, but he had to find out all his homework assignments in advance so he can do them today and he also has to go to the library and research his history project.

So I can understand the OP's question, especially if she is surrounded by children who are allowed to be tyrants.


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

Sorry, I had to come back to this thread. There were a couple of things that were bothering me.

I think it's unfair to say that an obedient child is a robotic child. How is that logical? Child does what his parents tell him; therefore child is unable to think for himself? No.

Also, the comment about how such a robot child would be unable to say no to the pedophile really bothered me. For one thing, it smacks of blaming the victim (or her parents)--"Your child was molested? I guess you were too strict." Also, parents can expect good behavior from their children and that does *not* conflict with these same parents teaching their children self-respect and giving them the skills to protect themselves from predators.

Sorry. I just had to post that, or it would have bothered me all day.


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

I am not going to post a long message, mostly because so many other people have said what I think and feel about GB, and most of them, much more eloquently that I could have.

For our family, GD comes down to respect. Every member of the family (there are five of us) is deserving of respect. It's a constant theme....kids are having a disagreement, I gently say "Are we treating each other with respect?" and it refocuses them on each other. And I ask myself that same question when I get angry with them "Am *I* treating them with respect?" and if the answer is no, then it's time for me to refocus, myself. I don't believe in NO punishments, but they must be logical, based on the child, the reason for the "misbehavior" (i.e. hunger,tired, overwhelmed, teething, developmental stuff, etc). And I can give you a perfect example....just yesterday, dh and I were cleaning up the kitchen after supper. The kids were playing on the floor, and somehow it ended up that the baby (14 months) was laying on her back while the other two were blowing rasberries on her tummy. She LOVED it. Giggling, laughing, dh and I just looked at each other and smiled....it was one of *those* moments. Ds got up to go to the restroom and toddler (28 months) bit baby's tummy. I mean BIT her!! Teeth marks, bruises, baby screaming....it was terrible. And my first instinct was to run over there and snatch up the baby while yelling at the toddler. But I stopped myself. I obviously went and got the baby, but intstead of yelling at toddler, I ignored her and concentrated on baby. Comforting, kissing, nursing. All the while, toddler is sitting there with this stunned expression on her face. After a few minutes, baby calmed down and I turned my attention to toddler. "You gave your sister a boo-boo, didn't you?" Nods. "I know you didn't mean to, but you hurt her really badly." Tears in her eyes as she nods again. "Let's try really hard not to do that again, okay?" Smile, hug, and nothing else. No consequences? Not really. She learned that when someone is hurt, we offer comfort, that when we hurt someone else, it doesn't feel good. and that Mommy loves her no matter what.

And, the best part of the night was later, after baths. The girls were playing on the bed in baby's room and I'm straightening up the bathroom and I hear toddler say "I sorry I hurt you before. No biting baby anymore."

That's GD IMO. Teaching through example. Knowing where they are...toddler didn't MEAN to hurt her sister, she got overzealous with their playing, she wanted to see what would happen, etc. It's all about respect.


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

This thread does belong in GD and will be moved there. Flames can be launched here or there (and we will spray water as necessary







But if you're really intent on figuring out GD then please be open to the input from the GD forum posters. Those who frequent that forum have a focused devotion to it and can probably best answer your questions.


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## kamilla626 (Mar 18, 2004)

I agree with much of what the pp's have said, and I'll try hard not to just repeat it all.

I absolutely agree that GD is primarily about being present with your children "in good times and bad" and learning to understand their behaviors as ways of communicating.

One example of what GD is NOT (imo) - one of my relatives established a rule with her kids that if they're losing it and crying over something they have to "take your tears in your room" and stay in their room until they're done crying.

Some may feel that this is GD because it doesn't involve hitting, and can be "effective" if your only goal is to get the child to stop crying. But to me, that just sends a message to a child that "mommy doesn't want to be with you when you're sad. If you can't control your emotions, I don't want to listen to you. I'll only spend time with you when you act happy." To me that's the opposite of what GD is strives to achieve.

GD is a pretty gray area, and it goes beyond simply being non-violent. It's about maintaining the intunement and connection that AP creates, even when your dc isn't feeling heard, or "in control".


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *daylily*
*Negotiating*

I tend to turn a jaundiced eye at this, at least when very young children are concerned. From my own experience, trying to reason with a three year old is an exercise in futility, at least over items in which I am unwilling to compromise, such as safety. And I've seen it degenerate into a parent pleading with her child to behave. I've seen this many, many times, as a matter of fact, and it isn't pretty.

I've also seen self-professed GD parents use other people to be the bad guy to get their kids to behave. Example: a friend and her ds were at our house. It was time to go home and the child didn't want to leave. After much pleading, the parent told her child that _my dh was mad at him for not wanting to go home._ Totally manipulative and unfair, yet it met her definition of GD. Another time in a similar situation, this parent told her child that [/i]our dog would bite him if he didn't get in the car.[/i] That was the last time we had them over.

Negotiation does work for older children I think. Ds, who is 12, asked me if he could skip school today. It was an "activity" day with a dance, and he didn't want to deal with that. I agreed, but he had to find out all his homework assignments in advance so he can do them today and he also has to go to the library and research his history project.

So I can understand the OP's question, especially if she is surrounded by children who are allowed to be tyrants.

I think the key in the scenarios that you posted are in the words "self-professed". It is not at all GD to lie to a child and manipulate a child based on these lies. That is as far from GD as you can be. A GD solution to a child who doesn't want to leave a playdate is to a) empathize ("I know that you're sad that we have to leave because we had so much fun") and then b) figure out a solution where the child feels empowered ("let's talk about when we can come over again and play" or "let's race to the car!" or "can you climb into your carseat all by yourself or do you need me to help you?" or "do you want to run to the car of do you want to fly?" - obviously I can go on and on but I won't bore you anymore!).

I have a very spirited child who also has sensory integration dysfunction. She's a challenge! But now at the age of 4 I can definitely see that my labors are bearing fruit! She has developed a strong sense of inner-discipline and needs far less coaching from me.

From Persephone:

Quote:

I understand what you are saying about children and how much they can developmentally handle, and about unmet needs, but what do you do to a child who has deliberately and willfully done something they know is wrong? I believe that this needs to be punished in some way. How do you do that and adhere to your GD principles?
I think you will find that a child who has been GD'd will have less of those issues *when they have truly left the age/stage of age-appropriateness for that behavior*. Sorry, didn't mean to yell but I wanted to emphasize that. My DD has done things "willfully" when she was in the correct age to do it, in other words, when it was age-appropriate. One of the vital keys to GD is to understand age-appropriate behavior - that will prevent you from seeing something as "willfull" or "obnoxious" or "purposeful" and instead see it as "healthy human development". On the rare occasions that my daughter will do something that she knows she's not supposed to, she will be her own disciplinarian 99% of the time and punishment is not necessary since she so clearly knows that what she did was wrong.

Congrats to all of you preggos, by the way!


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

I am perturbed that child neglect and letting the child run roughshod over the parents and everyone else could be confused with gentle discipline, or loving guidance as LLL calls it.

GD entails respect. You respect your child. You encourage your child's compassion for others so that the child will respect the parents, other people and herself.

I suggest the OPer read (and am saddened that, as a childcare-giver, she hasn't already):

Raising Your Spirited Child

The Fussy Baby Book

How To Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk


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## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

Your Competent Child by Jesper Juul
fabulous fabulous book. It WILL make you think.

My first is spirited, my second is not.

yes, apples and pretzels.

Really they are just born that way, it's a personality trait.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Reading through this thread, I was promted to look up a document I wrote about 2 years ago. I wrote it for myself -- it is the product of years of inner-struggle, research and thought about this issue. It was so important for me to articulate my thoughts on this. I hope it doesn't read too much like mud. Sorry for the length:

_*Discipline*

The Child

The approach to discipline depends on the caregiver's basic assumptions about the nature of children. If a parent assumes that children are basically immoral and not inclined to make proper choices, then the parent will approach discipline from the perspective of a commander who is responsible to make the child behave well. At the other extreme, a parent who assumes the child is basically good and always inclined to make good choices may continually blame poor behavior on aspects the environment and refuse to allow the child to learn responsibility.

A more balanced approach assumes that the child lacks information about the world and is self-centered, but also that he or she is *innately inclined to learn and mature*. Progressive approaches in the field of education argue that the most effective teaching methods are those that nurture this natural inclination while preserving the child's creativity and enthusiasm. When discipline is approach as a learning process, these same progressive ideas can be applied, and it can be assumed that the child will naturally lend his or herself to the process, driven by a natural drive to learn and thrive.

The Goal

Children tend to misbehave under certain circumstances when they find themselves stressed and their efforts at self-control tested.
1)Body: When their basic physical needs are unmet. They may be hunger, tired, over stimulated or under stimulated, too hot or too cold, hurt or sick.
2)Will: When they experience a loss of control or have insufficient opportunity to exert their will. This happens when others do not treat them respectfully and with dignity. It may also happen when the gratification of desires must be delayed.
3)Cognition: When they do not understand the consequences of their actions, or they need to test limits in order to judge the reality of consequences.
4)Emotions: They are unable to express strong emotions constructively, and they feel compelled to express them through troubling non-verbal behavior.

It is important to understand what triggers a child's misbehavior and to empathize with their situation. It is appropriate for a caregiver to help the child succeed by considering these factors and controlling the child's environment in advance. However, the ability to behave well even when circumstances are challenging is a valuable and essential life skill. Discipline facilitates the process of learning this ability.

*The primary goal of discipline is to facilitate a process whereby the child develops a sense of inner discipline by learning coping skills, problem solving abilities, and constructive ways to express emotion. And where the child gradually learns responsibility for his or her actions by a growing understanding of how they affect self and others.*

Because the primary goal of discipline is not to produce a well-behaved child, but instead to address underlying issues, it should be unsurprising that effectively disciplined children will not always behave well. While some misbehavior may reflect poor parenting (because of unmet needs) it may just as easily reflect the child's individual temperament and the stage that he/she is at in the learning process. Childhood is not a time to pass judgment on these behaviors, but instead a time to gently and respectfully facilitate the learning process.

The Parent-Facilitator

The term "facilitate" suggests a supportive role for the parent as opposed to a commanding role. The process of learning, growing and maturing belongs to the child. This sense of self-ownership will serve to both motivate the child and to satisfy his/her need for control and respect.

The learning process is compromised when the child's needs are consistently unmet, or when the child is subjected to frequent disrespect by his parents or caregivers. These conditions are self-defeating because they contribute to the underlying triggers of strong emotions and frustrated will, without providing solutions to the child or an adequate expressive outlet (a sympathetic ear.)

Harsh discipline that relies on punishment may produce a well-behaved child, but will not impart the necessary tools of constructive self-expression, coping mechanisms, and problem solving abilities. Nor will it ensure that the child's "good behavior" extends beyond the situations where immediate rewards and punishments apply, because the motivation for being "good" is to avoid punishment (fear and shame) and not to live responsibly or nurture relationships (confidence and love.)
*
It is essential that a child trust his caregivers.* A sense of respect will grow naturally in a relationship where it is reciprocal, and where the person in power can be relied on. The authority of the parent rests in the fact that the parent has a greater store of knowledge than the child, and is available to the child as a *resource* for learning.
_


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

nak

i had the same thoughts as the OP poster before i had kids. used to laugh w/dh about how simle it really is - just don't tolerate bad behavior and it will go away. and bad meant anything we didn't like.

Then I had a baby. I wouldn't call him spirited, but he is high energy and very bright and willful. GD began to come naturally. I know you logically know that children have feelings and opinions and deserve respect, but you really won't get how intensely you feel that until your baby is born. And if you're like me, it will just feel wrong to not be respectful of your feelings. And I feel like GD is really the only way to be respectful to children.

No negotiation? Well, I think you are thinking of when you say no, the kid starts screaming, and the parent gives in. That's not negotiation. How does negotiation work around here? I tell ds we need to leave to go to the store. He doesn't want to because he is busy playing trains. Should I just pick him up kicking and screaming because I am the adult and he should listen blindly to me? Is my desire to go to the store more important than his play? I recognize that I am the adult, and ds does not rule our house, but he still deserves some respect for what is important to him. So I tell him that I see that he still wants to play, and that I will give him a few more minutes. In a few minutes, he doesn't want to stop. So I offer to bring the trains with us. Usually he is happy to do that, and we go along to the store with a few trains. I call that negotiation. We both got what we wanted - I got to go to the store, and he got to play with his trains. How is that creating a spoiled brat?

My ds is not a perfect angel, but he is a very well behaved, polite, respectful, loving caring person.

Do we punish? No, but lots of what I call natural consequences. He deliberately dumps all his books on the floor and walks away? He has the option of picking them up or having me box them up for a bit. I explain that having toys means taking care of them, and if he can't do that, then he can't have that toy. I don't see that as punishment. It's what happens if you don't pick up after yourself.

If he hits me (which is rare), then I walk away and don't engage further. Is this punishment?

Honestly, I think punishment is a lot harder. If he hits me, he is already raging. Then let's say I have to punish him. What does that look like exactly? Hit back, no. Send him to his room? And what, lock the door - he can open it and will just come back out screaming. Anything that is not a logical reponse just escalates the situation unnecessarily. He's upset that he can't have cookies before dinner so I take away a toy? That just makes him scream more. Explaining that he can't have the cookies, giving empathy that it's hard to not get what you want (and it is - wouldn't you feel upset if someone dictated what you could and could not eat?), explain about healthy eating if appropriate, and then move on. If he needs to wail about it, I'm there for him if he needs me, but otherwise he's welcome to express his unhappiness. He's still not getting the cookie until he eats. (I actually don't believe in having a bunch of stuff like this in the house, so it solves the problem in and of itself.)

I gotta run - dh has to work on the computer.

I know I've been rambling, but I think you will 'get' GD a lot more after your baby is born.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pam_and_Abigail*
Dar, I'm wondering more about how you did things when your dd was younger? When you are letting her know that a certain act is inappropriate, do you just do that verbally? I feel sometimes that verbally correcting my dd is not enough.

Oh, I totally think that negotiation with a young child often involves physical interaction. If a toddler is whacking me with a stick, I'd do something like place a more hittable object between me and the stick and say "The rock is for hitting.", or else grab the other end of the stick, make eye contact, and say, "I don't want to be hit." and make a "serious" face. Or something like that, anyway. I have the right to insist that people not hit me, but I can also provide other options of things to hit. I might also add humor, depending on how little the child was, like throw a pine cone a few feet and give it a voice to say, "Hit me! Plleeeeeaaase hit me!"

That was assuming that the hitting was a sort of playful, having-fun thing. If it was more of an anger/frustration thing, I'd address that, too...

I don't think I like the term "verbal correction", although I can see where it's true in a way. I think of it more as verbal information-giving... that seems more respectful.

Daylily- I don't think anyone is trying to blame the victim for child molestation, or the vistim's parents. Of course, children shouldn't be molested no matter what, and some children who are molested have no problem disobeying an adult when necessary - think Midsi Sanchez. Still, if you're playing the odds, a molester will try to choose children who will obey, and who will feel so badly about disobeying parents (or doing what the molester frames as disobeying) that they will keep the molestation a secret. It's no secret that there are ways of talking, walking, and interacting that mark people as a probable "good" victim to pedophiles, one who won't fight back or talk. It's oversimplifying to consider an obedient child to be a "good victim", but I do think it's a factor.

Dar


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*

Do we punish? No, but lots of what I call natural consequences. He deliberately dumps all his books on the floor and walks away? He has the option of picking them up or having me box them up for a bit. I explain that having toys means taking care of them, and if he can't do that, then he can't have that toy. I don't see that as punishment. It's what happens if you don't pick up after yourself.

This is punishment, though. It's the kind of punishment usually called "logical consequences", but you're doing something he finds unpleasant in the hopes that it will change the behavior next time (next time he'll put his toys away).

Natural consequences occur naturally. Natural consequences of toys being left out might be the dog chewing them up, or having them end up lost under the sofa, or stepping on them and accidentally breaking them.

I do really like your explanation of the way you negotiated a trip to the store...

Dar (who did live in the bay area for years when Rain was small







)


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Becoming the Parent You Want to Be has helped me so much with what Lovebeads has said. I did not know what was age appropriate. When DS would have some great moment of clarity and then seem to regress, I would get really frustrated with him. "You understood this yesterday! Why won't you get it today?" When I started to really understand what a 2 YO is capable of, and most importantly what MY 2 YO is capable of, our lives got so much easier. The thought of punishing him for simply being him is unthinkable to me.

And so for the original poster: GD is really hard to get when you don't have one in the house. I thought I would be this total hard-ass mama whose kids did what they were told, when they were told, without question, discussion or hesitation. Then I realized that I want a bigger world for my kids. I want a world where they explore, try to assert their desires and have a voice. I want them to be thinkers and questioners. I want to know when I send them out the door that they are making decisions based on *self discipline*, not just because they have a fear of authority. And let me tell you, when you see it working (and you will), GD rocks.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

I love the OP request not to move this thread. Oh well







I never post over here b/c we do use natural AND logical consequences.

I sure wouldn't say my boys are overly obedient but they are pretty smart decent little human beings.
Okay, here's one example you'll want to flame me for...







We have a really active playgroup of 3 y.o. boys and they all seemed to enter a wild stage together; ie. running ahead w/o listening (We have run into bear before--10' away and eating grubs and watching us.), and playing too wildly w/sticks. So, ds and I had a talk about safety, etc. and I warned him that next time, we'd have to go home, etc. Next time, he started and I simply turned around and we walked a mile back to the car crying. Mean. Yup. But,that was months ago and he NEVER gets out of my sight and hasn't whacked anyone since w/a stick. Hasn't run into another bear, either.








:


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
Do we punish? No, but lots of what I call natural consequences. He deliberately dumps all his books on the floor and walks away? He has the option of picking them up or having me box them up for a bit. I explain that having toys means taking care of them, and if he can't do that, then he can't have that toy. I don't see that as punishment. It's what happens if you don't pick up after yourself.


Taking toys away is not a natural consequence, IMO. It did not occur naturally as a result of the child not picking up the toys. It's a consequence set by the parent, but it isn't natural.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Mamaduck, I would like to see you publish your essay on GD. The obvious place would be Mothering magazine. Your writing is beautifully clear and your logic is rigorous.

(Though I also want to say that I have learned a lot from other posts here, as well.)


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Would you all say that 'misbehaving' at a friend's house followed by needing to leave because the friend is unhappy with us is a natural consequence?


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
Would you all say that 'misbehaving' at a friend's house followed by needing to leave because the friend is unhappy with us is a natural consequence?

The reason that I see it as a natural consequence, is that I (as mother) have reached the end of my ability to cope in the situation. The consequence of misbehaving in public is that mama has to take her parenting abilities to a more controlled environment or else she is gonna "loose it!" I think its okay for my kids to know that they've pushed me beyond my ability to deal with a situation. I might say something like, _"This isn't working anymore. I'm getting too tired. I can't take good care of you here anymore. So lets go. We'll try again when I have more energy and you feel more cooperative."_

And what you said too -- the consequence of having friends not really want us there anymore!!!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
Mamaduck, I would like to see you publish your essay on GD. The obvious place would be Mothering magazine. Your writing is beautifully clear and your logic is rigorous.

(Though I also want to say that I have learned a lot from other posts here, as well.)

Gee, thanks CO! Your sweet. I've learned so much in this forum too -- could never be where I am without all these supportive and critically thinking mamas!


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

IdentityCrisisMama, I would call that a logical consequence, not a natural one. A natual consequence would be defined by the 'misbehavior'. Example: If the indiscretion is hitting another child, being ignored or getting hit in return by the other child is the natural consequence.

You know, I have been thinking about your essay too, Mamaduck. I am so grateful that we have a resource like you. However, most of the mamas here either practice GD, want to learn more about GD and at the very least have heard of GD. We know we can tap our resources here whenever the well gets low. I wish there were someway to get it to the larger audience who does not even know that GD is an option or who want a new way to think, but have no idea how to implement it.

I strongly encourage you to contact editors at the mainstream parenting publications, both for their print and online media. It is for the children whose parents need more than what they are getting that it should have a wider circulation.

Just my two cents with a dallop of admiration.

Anna


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *daylily*
*Negotiating*

I tend to turn a jaundiced eye at this, at least when very young children are concerned. From my own experience, trying to reason with a three year old is an exercise in futility, at least over items in which I am unwilling to compromise, such as safety.

I agree that reasoning with a 3-year-old is seldom successful. But reasoning is not negotiating. Reasoning is convincing - trying to sway a person toward our point of view. It often involves the dreaded, "Yes, but" (which, let's not kid ourselves, actually means "no"). Negotiating is trying to get what we want/need but inherently requires that we satisfy others' wants/needs, as well. Give and take.

Negotiating with a 3-year-old can be very successful, IME. Young children tend to become a little more pliable when they know that you're actually listening to them and are sincere about helping them to get or do what they want.

Negotiating is what life is all about. Really. This is why I love GD - because we're helping our children to understand how to successfully navigate the world.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Oh, and mamaduck is very smart.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
Natural consequences occur naturally. Natural consequences of toys being left out might be the dog chewing them up, or having them end up lost under the sofa, or stepping on them and accidentally breaking them.









Natural consequences around here usually involve ds' toys breaking from him either playing too roughly with them or leaving them around to be stepped on (which leads to another natural consequence - sore feet when he steps on them and the occasional unpleasant word from a grumpy mom when I've tripped over them).

Quote:

I do really like your explanation of the way you negotiated a trip to the store...
Same here. I thought that was a shining example of negotiation meeting everyone's needs, oceanbaby.

And LoveBeads - thanks for your post. There were many little nuggets of wisdom in there that reminded me how I can work on being more present with ds.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

DragonflyAnd LoveBeads - thanks for your post. There were many little nuggets of wisdom in there that reminded me how I can work on being more present with ds. [IMG alt="" said:


> http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]












I'm honored to be mentioned in the same thread as mamaduck. She ROCKS!


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Mamaduck - Whoooo hooo! Love your work - and I agree, you have to get that out into mainstream.

Thank you.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

> Taking toys away is not a natural consequence, IMO. It did not occur naturally as a result of the child not picking up the toys. It's a consequence set by the parent, but it isn't natural.
> 
> 
> > > Natural consequences around here usually involve ds' toys breaking from him either playing too roughly with them or leaving them around to be stepped on (which leads to another natural consequence - sore feet when he steps on them and the occasional unpleasant word from a grumpy mom when I've tripped over them).
> ...


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I guess the term punishment vs. natural consequence could be debated. But to me, punishment would mean being sent to his room or having a cherished toy taken away, or something unrelated like that.
I think what you're doing is a logical consequence, so it's not an arbitrary punishment. But to those of us who don't (or hardly ever) use logical consequences, they still look like punishments. On the rare occasions that I've used them, they've felt like punishments to me. They probably feel like punishment to a child, too. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that what you're doing isn't GD or that it's "bad parenting". It's just not my preferred way of GD. Different strokes, you know?

Quote:

If he deliberately throws applesauce on the floor, I hand him a rag to clean it up. If he refuses to clean it up, then I clean it up and we discuss that he apparently isn't ready to eat applesauce on his own and must wait for me to sit down with him.
That's kind of the way I would handle it, too, though I'd probably approach the discussion from an "I" standpoint. "I'm concerned that you might throw the applesauce on the floor again, so I'm just going to hold onto it until we can sit together. I really don't feel like cleaning up an applesauce mess." The reality is that I don't want to clean applesauce up off the floor and, if he's not willing to clean up after himself, then I'm going to do what I need to to minimize the mess. Applesauce gets old and sticky and smelly and attracts bugs, so it's not practical to leave it around on the floor hoping that he'll get the message. Also, he's not likely to get the message as he doesn't have any emotional investment at this point in the floor not being sticky or there not being ants in our house.

He is emotionally invested in his toys, though. And, so, it's a perfect scenario, IMO, for natural consequences to bring the lesson home without me having to nag or be the bad guy.

That's as far as I can get right now. I'm exhausted. Will come back later with some more thoughts.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

"I'm concerned that you might throw the applesauce on the floor again, so I'm just going to hold onto it until we can sit together. I really don't feel like cleaning up an applesauce mess."
Yeah, that's kind of how our discussion goes too. In many of my postings here I'm under the time pressure of the baby starting to squirm so I don't get to articulate my thoughts how I'd like to. I can type quickly though!

And you're right, sometimes I feel like I'm punishing him, and I do a lot of soul searching to make sure that I am really staying with the boundaries of being respectful and teaching proper behavior rather than reacting due to my own hangups, you know?

And just to complicate matters further, I think the child's personality plays a part in how GD 'looks' in any particular household. Some children respond to being held while they tantrum - my ds HATES to be touched while he is really upset. He often asks us to not even speak to or look at him. (And ironically, I'm kind of the same way when really pissed off or upset about something, so I can understand.) So for the books on the floor, we tried different scenarios, but he is kind of an all or nothing kid, so the pick up or it goes away has worked. And he really seems to understand it. But I can definitely see how it may not really be someone else's cup of tea. I have a friend who takes the concept of GD further than I am comfortable with, but it works for her child, who is much more 'emotional' than my son is.

And getting back to the OP, that's why I said that it might make a lot more sense to her once her child is here. His personality dictates so much of how I interact.


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## WithHannahsHeart (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
OK, I'll take a stab at it, lol.

What GD means to me is that we work together as a family, we respect each other, we cooperate. I try to see my child's point of view and accomodate his preferences. This does not mean he runs wild and everybody else bends to his whim. That would be disrespectful to the other members of the family. But it's not "my way or the highway", either. We work to find solutions that are acceptable to everybody.

The key thing behind GD, to me, is raising children to be critical thinkers. I don't think this can be done if they are conditioned to blindly obey me as an authority figure. I am in charge, it is true. I do have the final say. But I try to gently guide him in the direction I want him to go, not rigidly force him to adhere to the path I set out for him.

I try to allow him to explore, to experience the natural consequences of his actions. IMO this helps him to learn about the world. For instance, if he dumps out the cat's water on the floor, I don't put him in time out, I give him a rag and we clean up the mess. Later on, if he breaks a neighbor's window, he will have to find a way to fix the situation for the neighbor, i.e. mowing lawns to raise money to pay for the new one, giving up a Saturday to help replace it, etc. He wouldn't be grounded. The problem with taking away toys, etc. for bad behavior is that the consequence doesn't naturally follow from the action. It doesn't really teach anything except that Mommy doesn't like it when I do X. The reality of the situation, hurt feelings, damaged property, etc. often is overlooked, and all the child gets is a feeling of resentment at having been caught and punished.

Anyway. That's my take on it, the abridged version anyway. I hope other people weigh in, my DS is only 2 and I have a lon way to go on my disciplinary journey.

Oh, well put! Very much how we do things and how we think, too







. We find that negotiation has been a very positive aspect of our parenting, and that our child blossoms and is such a nice little person (mostly







) because we allow her to make choices and listen to her.


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## moma justice (Aug 16, 2003)

It means when you are in the physical presence of your child, you are really tuned in to them and you can talk *on their level*. You're not zoning out on the bills that need to get paid, you're not half-heartedly wading through your day waiting for bedtime. You are there and happy to be there, interacting with your child.

)[/QUOTE]

i totally agree prevention has been my game so far and it works...
but it is so hard
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo hard
how do you cook 3 meals form scratch, have a garden, be an active participant in your church and/or community,
do cloth diapers, do all the cleaning, have a husabnd.... and still stay so tuned in...like that?
and not feel like you are stretched SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo thin that you are not any thing "you" anymore?


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## mwherbs (Oct 24, 2004)

it is possible, when you are cooking and gardening there are things that the kids have to respect too about how things get done. if they are big enough to be running around and not in a sling or on your back then they can participate in helping do what you are doing


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Sometimes, something has to give... it's a matter of priorities.

For me, being a tuned-in parent more important than the other things on your list. The cleaning went first, 3 meals a day from scratch second, and we manage to have a garden about every other year.

I have not managed the having a husband part at all...









Dar


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I was think today about "logical" consequences. I think sometimes they are "imposed" to teach a lesson and in those cases I think it falls into the catagory of punishment. But the majority of the examples we face daily (and I see described in this thread) are not about imposing a consequence. They are more about setting personal boundries with our kids -- letting them know exactly how much we as mothers are willing to be inconvenienced or strained by their behavior. For instance with the applesauce example, not getting more applesauce is a logical consequence, and the reason is that mom is not willing to clean up anymore nasty applesauce off the floor.

Today my 4 yo. dumped juice on the floor (on purpose because he was mad.) This is *rare* behavior for him, but half an hour later when he calmed down and asked nicely for more juice, I offered water instead, and explained that I was worried about having to possibly mop more juice off the floor. I assured him that juice would be an option again at dinner. He was upset at me, and I'm sure he felt punished. But from my perspective, I was setting a personal boundry/limit that I would set with anyone who accepted a glass of juice from me and then dumped it on the floor! Apart from discipline, I will not allow myself to be pushed around like that.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

MJ, let me tell you, it *does* get easier. Your DD is still very young. Believe me, in six months your load will lighten. They do grow up, they do become more independent, it just happens. Then you will have more time for non-baby things.

In the meantime, if you feel stretched thin, IMO it's time to prioritize. You are doing too much. Does the house need to be spotless? Do you need to cook 3 meals from scratch? My DS eats a lot of raw fruits and vegetables, it's good for him.







Try laying down some thick mulch so you don't have to pay as much attention to the garden. Drop a few committments to your community. Your DD will only be a baby once, and the groundwork you lay down now will either bless you or haunt you for a long time to come. There will be plenty of time for that other stuff later. This is not to say you should do nothing fun for yourself, not at all. It's just that some less important things need to fall away for a while, and your priorities should just be you and the baby. JMHO.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

OK, where did all these other posts come from?? LOL And of course Dar said it so much more succinctly and less preachily than I did...


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Moma--I don't think you can do it all. I am a writer, but I have not done it in over a year on a serious level. This is not my time. That does not mean that I don't do things for myself. I have a women's group that meets once a month. If I need a break, I tell DH and I hit the door. My house is par in some areas and subpar in others. I decided that cooking was something I liked, so that got a priority. Cleaning, not so much. Never occured to me to garden--I really hate it.

But to answer your question, yes, I feel stretched too thin. Number two will be here in January. I already feel overwhelmed. Some things just won't get done. However, the kids remain the top priority. DH, unfortunately, has fallen somewhere in the middle. We try to date once a month. And somedays I look in the mirror and think, "Who IS that woman?"


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

: this thread is great!







:


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## moma justice (Aug 16, 2003)

i can see how it will get easier
she is at a hard stage right now
want to be down and in to everything but not able to reason good or bad chioces yet at all.
my dd will not be held any longer while i do house work...she loves to be down.....
but she has an ORAL FIXATION like no other babe i have ever seen.....and she will eat her books, and any crumb o fanything she can find,,,,shoes electric cords..everything goes in the mouth
so i have to PREVENT any behvior problems (or my own fustration problems...) by keeping our house clean=baby proof
lots of vacuming and moping and keeping things that she loves but should not eat out of her mouth (like the paper of her book pages
i know she is teething and i am/was the same way ( i still bite my nails..)
and the natural consoqunese is choking.....which she has done more times than i ever want to live through again with a babe (it is so scary) and she knows the word choke and and spit it out and agrees that it is scary to choke...
but soem days she has everything in her mouth
so how do i deal
and react gently but firmly?
i know i am hijaking but this totally is on subject....
like today we were at the park and she just insisted on walking around putting ONLY trash in her mouth she even grabed a piece of glass and put it to her lips before i could grab it...and i am alwasy by her side.
i tried taking and explaining, making serious and scared faces adn reminding about choking, redirecting (she would not swing or slide etc)
so i said, "fine, i guess you don't really want to play at the park after al, becuase you aren't playing. youare just trying to eat trash off the ground and we NEVER eat anything we find on the ground...we bring it to mommy and mommy says "thank you!" so i guess since you don't wan to play we should just go home...." and she kind of fussed but not really adn we went home
but she **** tried to eat everything she coudl find there too
this was after snacks, homeopathics (for teething) , and a teethin gtoy was offered (all refused)
did i handle the park ok?
was that GD or Natural consequence?


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

For those who don't do any sort of consequences let me give a scenario and tell me how you would handle this. My 2 year old hits another child with a hard object in the head. She hit her very hard to the point that it left an indentation which quickly became a fair sized egg. The other child's mother scooped her up and carried her off to nurse so I had my full attention for DD. I know she did not intend to hurt her friend. She was not angry. She was playing and didn't realize that she would hurt her friend. Nevertheless I took away the object and empathized when she cried but explained that she had hurt her friend with it and she could not play with it any more. I should add that my child is not very verbal. Now to me that was a logical and immediate consequence. What would those who don't even give those do instead? How do you handle a situation where a child could well hurt another child again if you let her keep the object? Is this situation an exception to the rule?

I have a spirited child and I hope the OP has one too. :LOL Dd has been spirited pretty much immediately. She is adventurous and passionate and always exploring. I would never trade that wonderful spirit for a passive fearful child. It does lead to challenges though. I don't hit, I do my best not to raise my voice and I avoid punishments except logical consequences only when physical danger is involved. I was not raised with any sort of respect from my parents and it only continued through my adolescence. In return I didn't respect my parents and to be honest I still don't. I think they did a totally crappy job of parenting and you only have to look at me and my siblings in our teen years to see the proof in that pudding. Thank goodness we all survived and have managed to become somewhat productive adults. I don't want that for my child. I want her to feel loved and respected and valued. I want her to have self-worth. I don't need to beat her down and be the boss. I don't want her to fear me. So I do my best and some here go a lot further than I do. It's taken a lot of time and reading to even get to the point where logical consequences vs punishments made any sense to me because it was so anti-thetical to my upbringing. As many of the PPs have said it really does change when it's your own child and you start thinking about how you want this specific child to feel and grow not some hypothetical child that will magically do what you want.


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## moma justice (Aug 16, 2003)

[It's taken a lot of time and reading to even get to the point where logical consequences vs punishments made any sense to me because it was so anti-thetical to my upbringing.
ITA
me too
it is like i am slowly ahving to rewrite my brain.....
but not my heart...sigh


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

For those who don't do any sort of consequences let me give a scenario and tell me how you would handle this. My 2 year old hits another child with a hard object in the head. She hit her very hard to the point that it left an indentation which quickly became a fair sized egg. The other child's mother scooped her up and carried her off to nurse so I had my full attention for DD. I know she did not intend to hurt her friend. She was not angry. She was playing and didn't realize that she would hurt her friend. Nevertheless I took away the object and empathized when she cried but explained that she had hurt her friend with it and she could not play with it any more. I should add that my child is not very verbal. Now to me that was a logical and immediate consequence. What would those who don't even give those do instead? How do you handle a situation where a child could well hurt another child again if you let her keep the object? Is this situation an exception to the rule?
Well, I do do logical consequences, so maybe this isn't a question for me to answer, but if the incident was truly an accident, I would not have taken the object away. The logical consequence as I see it is also a natural one - feeling bad about hurting someone. Ds has accidentally hurt someone before, and we talk about being careful, we go together to check in on the other child and ask how they are doing, things like that. But taking the object away is IMO a consequence of purposeful hitting, not accidental. (If an object is prone to causing accidents and kids keep getting hurt, then I will suggest/redirect/substitute something else.)

Does that make any sense?


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## mwherbs (Oct 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moma justice*
but she has an ORAL FIXATION like no other babe i have ever seen.....and she will eat her books, and any crumb o fanything she can find,,,,shoes electric cords..everything goes in the mouth
so i have to PREVENT any behvior problems (or my own fustration problems...) by keeping our house clean=baby proof

I agree prevention, it is not about discipline at this age, putting things into her mouth is a normal developmental stage, even if you haven't seen other kids put as much in their mouths as you see her doing. I use to go to the park to keep my house clean, but it sounds like you have a bad park. The other thing I did was to have 1 or 2 completely baby safe rooms,that way I didn't have to get to the whole house all the time.The other thing I took to heart from my grandmother "you'll eat a peck of dirt before you die" I had neighbors who had a CSA, their kids lived in the garden. Poppa had the youngest in a back pack but when they wanted out they were put in a safe plant area- when they crawled around and put plants or dirt in their mouths, oh well if you were close by you might try to get the dirt out, but the kids very quickly didn't eat dirt. I remember their youngest daughter ate a chiltipin and burnt her mouth mom picked her up and wiped it away and she grabbed another and put it in her mouth and cried a bit and tried again. She stopped for a while then the next time we were in the garden together she didn't put the pepper in her mouth. I am not saying give your daughter peppers, just that she will figure out what tastes good and feels good and will stop.


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## carlasher (Sep 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candipooh*

I almost wish you a spirited child so you can see :LOL

No thank you...

...but what is a world without spirt??


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## carlasher (Sep 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *urklemama*
Ah, Bay Area parenting, or lack of it.

Someone upthread said something about people saying they're doing GD but actually completely absenting themselves? Imagine a whole city like that. I'm not exaggerating. Carslasher and I are both in the Rotten Child Capital of the Universe. When you're constantly dealing with families who have produced children who really have no idea that other people have needs, it's easy to blame it on GD. I don't blame it on GD, btw, b/c I know what real GD looks like. But when you're surrounded by people who advocate GD ideals and whose children are completely, totally impossible, it's easy to miss that these parents are talking the talk but not walking the walk.

*
That is the experience I am talking about!!!

I was wrong to confuse real brats with children of GD. I have a much better understanding of it now. Unfortunately, I dont know anyone around me that pratices GD yet, but hopefully I will connect with some parents.

Apples and oranges trully.

THANK YOU EVERYONE.*


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## carlasher (Sep 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*

No negotiation? Well, I think you are thinking of when you say no, the kid starts screaming, and the parent gives in. That's not negotiation. How does negotiation work around here? I tell ds we need to leave to go to the store. He doesn't want to because he is busy playing trains. Should I just pick him up kicking and screaming because I am the adult and he should listen blindly to me? Is my desire to go to the store more important than his play? I recognize that I am the adult, and ds does not rule our house, but he still deserves some respect for what is important to him. So I tell him that I see that he still wants to play, and that I will give him a few more minutes. In a few minutes, he doesn't want to stop. So I offer to bring the trains with us. Usually he is happy to do that, and we go along to the store with a few trains. I call that negotiation. We both got what we wanted - I got to go to the store, and he got to play with his trains. How is that creating a spoiled brat?


What if you are in a hurry, in a situation where their is no time for "play", (one thing, a store is not a playground); what will he do then when you cannot allow him to play? Is he going to scream bloody murder because he cannot understand the reasons he cannot play at that time? Where is the part where he learns that he simply cannot do something just because he wants to, or do you feel he is too young for such a lesson?
_
(I hope my late-night rambling is understandable :LOL)_


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## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

With a todder it's hard to have a lifestyle where you are always in a hurry or have to do this or that shopping RIGHT NOW.

There are lots of factors to consider such as, is everyone napped and fed?

I don't set myself up for a cranky unresponsive child by going shopping only when it's convenient for me. In our house, I do the shopping around noon time. By then, we've all at least eaten, the baby has had his morning nap, the toddler has played with his toys some and we are all ready to go out.

My 3yo helps my shopping by carrying a basket and putting items that he likes to eat in it. Our co-op had miniature shopping carts, that was great. Sometimes he brings his dolly stroller with his stuffed animal. All of these things keep him occupied.

It's all about how creative you can be.

Also, before you have children, it's easy to say how you're going to be the boss and how your kids are gonna act according to your rules no matter what!

But when the baby comes, it's inevitable that you will form an attachment to each other based on love and trust. The baby cries and you hold him, love him, feed him and care for his needs. It's hard to not want that to develop into a relationship based on mutual respect.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I've been reading this thread because my baby is not old enough for discipline yet so I'm just trying to collect info for the future. I am curious, though. Am I the only one who has a problem with calling children brats regardless of how they behave or have been cared for? It seems to me that doing that blames the child for the parents' shortcomings.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
I've been reading this thread because my baby is not old enough for discipline yet so I'm just trying to collect info for the future. I am curious, though. Am I the only one who has a problem with calling children brats regardless of how they behave or have been cared for? It seems to me that doing that blames the child for the parents' shortcomings.

I have a HUGE problem with that sort of thing. (I do recognize that the OP...Carlasher I believe... apologized for the "brat" comment







) I think that calling children "brats" and such is apalling. My kids and I joke around with each other, but it is definately done in a silly way and nothing is meant by it. I have seen parents actually say they have "devil children" or "Monsters" and be dead serious. What must that poor kid be thinking?


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
I have a HUGE problem with that sort of thing. (I do recognize that the OP...Carlasher I believe... apologized for the "brat" comment







) I think that calling children "brats" and such is apalling. My kids and I joke around with each other, but it is definately done in a silly way and nothing is meant by it. I have seen parents actually say they have "devil children" or "Monsters" and be dead serious. What must that poor kid be thinking?


I definitely agree that there is something profoundly wrong with calling your own child a "brat" or even refering to them that way.

No child is born a "brat." And I'd never call a child this. But I might REFER to a child this way when talking to someone else (not child's parent). To me a "brat" is a child who has been taught and believes that the feelings and wishes of others come second to his or hers and that have a right to always come before others.


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## Rollermommy (Jul 1, 2002)

Now that i've gotten through 4 pages







......

This thread is amazing and so enlightning. I love it when you read something and it connects to your heart in such a way, you are compelled to change your entire course of action.
I dont think I really understood GD before I read this, and at times I thought I was practicing some form of it.
This is such a hot topic with me and dh. He's very authoritarian, pro-spanking, no discussion, do what I say or else type of parent. And at the time when we married I totally agreed with him (gimme a break, I was 18







).
He has changed a lot over the past 7 yrs. He no longer spanks, doesnt mind explaining himself or allowing the kids to explain their side of things--but still very far from GD. I have to say I've gone from one extreme to the other from being totally authoritarian to being totally permissive....then the kids start taking advantage of that, i ignore it, then I snap, yell, feel lousy, and have to come back and apologize.
I need balance, I need to quit using my childhood as an excuse, I need to feel good about the way I treat my children and the way we discipline.
This thread has helped me pinpoint the balance I was looking for. Since I've never seen GD in real life its hard to know what it looks like. It's here, in all of you. So nice to have a touchstone like MDC.
Thank you Mama's....keep writing!


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carlasher*
What if you are in a hurry, in a situation where their is no time for "play", (one thing, a store is not a playground); what will he do then when you cannot allow him to play? Is he going to scream bloody murder because he cannot understand the reasons he cannot play at that time? Where is the part where he learns that he simply cannot do something just because he wants to, or do you feel he is too young for such a lesson?
_
(I hope my late-night rambling is understandable :LOL)_

Actually, I am constantly amazed at how in tune my ds (and other children I believe if given the chance) are to the differences in their environment. He knows the difference between "we need to go to the store", and "We are in a big hurry, and we need to leave now." This is not to say that I never have a hard time getting him out of the house, but this is a general toddler issue, not a GD issue! And it's not hard because he is throwing tantrums - this is very rare for him, and is usually because he is extremely tired. It can be hard because they have an infuriating habit of moving really slowly when we are trying to move quickly.

But the reality is that there are very few times where we all of a sudden have to leave immediately. But when they do happen, he can still take his trains with him in the car, you know? And if we're running late, I can still give him a bit of notice as I am frantically running around trying to throw diapers in the bag and get my shoes on.

But again, I have usually been pleasantly surprised at how flexible and reasonable ds can be. I like to think it's because we have strived to be flexible and reasonable with him, rather than just asserting our power over him. (Ha - he was probably just born like this and we had nothing to do with it!)


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PumpkinSeeds*
With a todder it's hard to have a lifestyle where you are always in a hurry or have to do this or that shopping RIGHT NOW.

There are lots of factors to consider such as, is everyone napped and fed?

I don't set myself up for a cranky unresponsive child by going shopping only when it's convenient for me. In our house, I do the shopping around noon time. By then, we've all at least eaten, the baby has had his morning nap, the toddler has played with his toys some and we are all ready to go out.

My 3yo helps my shopping by carrying a basket and putting items that he likes to eat in it. Our co-op had miniature shopping carts, that was great. Sometimes he brings his dolly stroller with his stuffed animal. All of these things keep him occupied.

It's all about how creative you can be.

Also, before you have children, it's easy to say how you're going to be the boss and how your kids are gonna act according to your rules no matter what!

But when the baby comes, it's inevitable that you will form an attachment to each other based on love and trust. The baby cries and you hold him, love him, feed him and care for his needs. It's hard to not want that to develop into a relationship based on mutual respect.

This is all very true!


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## aguacates (Sep 17, 2003)

: This thread is fascinating. DD is only 14 mos, but I love reading things that make me examine the way we interact now, and the ways I want to keep interacting with her in the future.
And to Moma justice, with the oral 14 mo old and the full schedule, pm me if you ever want to commiserate, it sounds exactly like our situation. And when I garden (we run an organic farm) I take dd with me, and let her eat dirt, and chew on non-harmful plants, and keep her close enough that I can remove something from her mouth if it becomes an issue.


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## candipooh (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carlasher*
No thank you...

...but what is a world without spirt??










They are wondeful. I promise. You get just as much joy from them as you do challange. They are much more entertaining









like I said. I wouldn't chage a thing about her.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya43*
To me a "brat" is a child who has been taught and believes that the feelings and wishes of others come second to his or hers and that have a right to always come before others.

Of course, from a developmental perspective *all* young children believe this, and my belief is that this issue is one of the main issues 2-4 year olds struggle to resolve.

Pro-social behaviors generally occur in young children because they are socially reinforced. Young children see the world from an entirely self-centered POV - and that's very natural.

If you're talking about an older child, then rather than calling the child an ugly name, I'd feel sad that the parents failed him in such a big way.

Dar


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I feel the same as Dar. I think there are other ways of describing a difficult child rather than using a mean name even when not in the child's or child's parents' presence. Calling a child a brat under any circumstances is judgemental and relative. What you think is bratty I may think is perfectly fine. Much better, imo, to say something like, "It really annoyed me that the child wouldn't be quiet while I was talking." That's me owning my problem with the child's behavior rather than blaming the child for my discomfort.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
Well, I do do logical consequences, so maybe this isn't a question for me to answer, but if the incident was truly an accident, I would not have taken the object away. The logical consequence as I see it is also a natural one - feeling bad about hurting someone. Ds has accidentally hurt someone before, and we talk about being careful, we go together to check in on the other child and ask how they are doing, things like that. But taking the object away is IMO a consequence of purposeful hitting, not accidental. (If an object is prone to causing accidents and kids keep getting hurt, then I will suggest/redirect/substitute something else.)

Does that make any sense?

I think you misunderstood what I wrote. She in no way accidentally hit the child. She absolutely fully intended to hit the child. I do not believe she intended/realized she would hurt the child. The object in question was the weight for an arrangement of ballons that we did not realize was as hard as it was or that it had such sharp edges (it was wrapped in colorful foil and we thought it was made of clay). But she walked right up to her friend and smacked her with it. I only meant she was not hitting her out of anger or an intent to be mean. My DD has some sort of fixation with heads and unfortunately does hit them. This was just the first time she had an object that could truly do some damage. I wasn't going to let her keep it out of the very real possibility that 30 minutes later she might hit her friend again. Part of it was simply realizing this wasn't an appropriate thing for her to be playing with. We hadn't realized it before but once I saw she could hurt someone with it I felt I had to take it away.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Sounds like you did the right thing then, as long as you didn't admonish her for what she did. The only problem may have been, if the hurt child was moved away so that your child could not see how hurt the other child was, she may have not realized the full consequence of what she had done.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Oops, sorry, I thought you said it WAS an accident. I do most of my reading and posting with a bouncy baby in my lap, so I'm bound to miss something!


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## grumo (Dec 12, 2001)

I wonder at age people begin punishing. I can think of only one time in dd's three years when DH and I felt really strongly that we wanted to punish dd. Honestly, I can't remember what it was for That's pretty telling, isn't? I had never considered that perhaps both the punisher and the punishee tend to remember the punishment and not the offense.

Anyway, at the time that we both felt like whatever she did was so clearly done with intent and was severe, I realized that exacting a punishment was really about my need to be punitive. To be satisfied that I made an impact. To ensure that my words/will/rules/expectations were fully felt. We didn't punish her then, and we don't punish her now. My feelings sound harsh, but it was just the realization that those were the motivators pushing me towards punishment that made realize that punishment isn't the way to go. When I reflect upon individual situations, I cannot see a relationship between punishing and teaching. I just do not see it. Natural consequences teach.

In real life, sometimes the line is blurred. I do see as a consequence of nagging that a now grumpy mommy no longer wants to do the fun thing that dc was nagging about in the first place. Perhaps others would have worked harder than I sometimes do to redirect nagging, but I think that the feelings and moods of others is a direct and natural consequence of some behaviors.

On the respect issue that others have address just fine before me, I cannot see any reason why it is okay to treat children any differently than I would a friend. Now if only I could put that into practice closer to 100% of the time than 80%....


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## Autumnschild (Jul 20, 2004)

I've just finished reading the entire five pages of this thread and have found it to be wonderful and very enlightening.

What I've gained from practicing GD means so much to me. The closeness that I have with my dd comes from a mutual respect that we have for eachother. I am in tune with her and do my best to make sure her needs are met. She is just as in tune with me, and she is only 2.5 yrs old. Before I started practicing GD, I tried to go by the way I was raised...discipline. All that happened was a power struggle and I hated what it did to our relationship. So I decided this was not the way to go. I didn't realize that the changes I had made were considered GD...I had never heard of any such thing. It just seemed natural for us to talk about things and negotiate. This doesn't mean begging or bribing. I use a lot of positive reinforcement. At the grocery store, she wants to walk instead of ride in the cart. In the old days, I would say no and she would throw a fit. I would then get frustrated and we would leave. Now, I bring it up before we even pull into the parking lot. "Would you like to walk or ride in the cart when we get inside? You can walk as long as you stay close enough for me to see you, okay?" She does really well with choices because they let her feel in control of her own decisions. We have had no more grocery store meltdowns since we started negotiating. Toddlers need to feel like they have some control, otherwise they get very frustrated.

I've been lucky enough to meet a few other moms in the area who also practice GD. We have never actually spoken of it, but I see how they take the time to explain things to their children and how they give them choices. Some things are non-negotiable, such as safety issues. Sometimes it is critical to swoop the child out of danger's way and then sit down and explain-"you really scared mommy! You could have been hurt because of......you need to listen when I say Danger! If you got hurt I would be so sad..."

I'm no expert, that's for sure. All I know is that our relationship is very close and I can usually figure out the reason for any misbehavior if I take the time. Punishing a child for acting out is like treating a symptom but not the disease. They learn that it makes mommy unhappy when they express anger or frustration. What they need to learn is how to deal with that frustration. That we all feel that way sometimes, and its ok. Empathy.

Sometimes when I do get caught up in things, stress out, and turn and snap at her to go play in her room, her little voice brings me back to my senses. "Momma, you feeling grumpy?" And I have to sit down and take a deep breath and thank the stars above that I have taught her to care and to reach out to me when I am feeling out of sorts. That she knows its ok for me to feel this way sometimes. And we sit and talk about it for a minute, and we both feel better for it.

This is so different from the way I was raised. My parents had to be in control. If I cried or showed emotion, my father would say "if you don't stop crying, I'll give you something to cry about". I can't count how many times I heard that in my life. No wonder I choose a different path for my own children.

************************************************
I have to add...I could never have concieved of such an idea as GD before I had kids of my own. Having children sure changes your perspective on things. Also, GD isn't a "way out" of parenting. It takes a great deal of patience and compassion. Once you start seeing the rewards though, it is so worth the effort.


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