# Overweight children - is it parental neglect?



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Whose fault is it if a child is overweight? I saw a TV show at one point with very overweight kids and it seemed in those cases that the parents ate poorly and fed the kids the same stuff they ate, and as much as the kids wanted. And also that the kids were inside all the time and didn't get a lot of exercise. In that case, it did seem like the parents were neglectful to me.

But then there are tons of kids who are overweight but not to that extreme. Is there a point where it seems like parental neglect to you?


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *mamazee* 

Whose fault is it if a child is overweight? *The parent (s) and or caregiver-the source of the main diet of the child - IMO*



> Is there a point where it seems like parental neglect to you? *Yes*


We live next to NJ and while this has been spoken about nationally, it's also been discussed locally as well because of the recent surgery by Gov Chris Christie

http://whyy.org/cms/radiotimes/2013/05/13/governor-christies-weight-loss-surgery/

Personally I view the parents (and or those the child resides with) as the primary accountable party if they are the primary diet source.

I view neglect as the same as if there was another eating disorder (anorexia bulimia) - if that was being inflect upon a child, that too would be neglect-IMO

I view eating disorders in the same category as alcoholism or drug abuse - all are addictions when taken to extremes and grounds for neglect.

I view morbid obesity (as in this definition - http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/highland/departments-centers/bariatrics/right-for-you/morbid-obesity.aspx) a serious threat to a child (as in neglect) when a child is parented by a adult who is food addicted.

One recent remark by the Gov Christie really alarms me

My 12-year-old son came to me and said, 'Dad, are you goona die?'

Read more: http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/political-potpourri/2013/may/7/no-fat-presidents-nj-governor-chris-christy-and-la/#ixzz2U8Zb4yGk

If you are raising a child and at 12 they don't know that being 100+ lbs over weight is a REAL health issue- IMO you have done a bad job with your child- I feel very sad for children being raised this way.

There is a big difference (and clearly here with the Gov of NJ it shows) the means to be educated and the means to provide healthy food, this is not the case of uneducated on what is junk food and what is sizable portions or lack of money to buy health food, it's clearly a choice the parent is making. If that parent as abusing another thing, it would impact the child, I see no difference here with food.

IMO- until our society sees food obsession as addiction (as we do other addictions) we are not going to be able to even start to treat this - when you see how large as a society we are becoming it is alarming how this will impact our society down the road and the means to provide health care (not only costs but manpower) if you have a large portion of society that may not be able to contribute


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

I consider this a very complex issue, and I would not be confident saying that if one sees an overweight child, one can assume that neglect is the cause.

I speak as someone who has family members who have struggled with anorexia/bulemia, and other family members who are overweight or obese. In all cases, there are definite genetic components to the behavior. The overweight/obese members of my family eat very healthy diets and get regular exercise. So there's clearly a genetic component to their body shape/size. The anorexia/bulemia issues are extremely complex, but in all cases, the family members impacted were teenagers when they lost a parent to cancer, as well as there being other factors (some of them probably genetic) involved.

So, I personally would not jump to conclusions.

Also, I have heard of cases where a child was taken away from the family because of being overweight, and I find that very disturbing. For us to decide as a society that you are only a "fit" parent if you conform to a certain body image is a really dangerous place to go, IMO.

I recognize that poor diet and obesity are growing problems in America. I just don't think the way to deal with it is to declare parents "neglectful".


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

It probably varies a LOT from case to case. Yes, I think parents are the primary responsible parties, but considering the bad nutritional advice they are usually presented with (you don't have to look far to get the message that diet pop is a "healthy" choice, but whole milk isn't), and considering the rise of car-culture, and financial pressures, and the problems with the food supply, and how hard it is to get good healthcare, I think it's easy for even well-meaning parents to get into a set of unhealthy habits that can lead to weight issues for the whole family. There's a lot of pressure to conform, and it's gotten to the point where eating a truly healthy diet and living an active lifestyle is an act of non-conformity in a lot of communities.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CI Mama*
> 
> I recognize that poor diet and obesity are growing problems in America. I just don't think the way to deal with it is to declare parents "neglectful".


ITA. I can't imagine taking kids away from their parents can be anything but harmful. Way to set up a kid for a lifelong disorder and linking eating to unhealthy feelings of guilt by removing him from his parents!

It could be considered neglectful if the parents were fully aware that their child was extremely obese and were completely uninterested in trying to guide the child towards a more healthful lifestyle despite being educated enough to know that would entail. But I suspect 99.9% of parents with overweight children don't have as much support and knowledge as they need to help their children. Not having resources or not being aware of resources isn't neglectful.


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *4evermom*
> But I suspect 99.9% of parents with overweight children don't have as much support and knowledge as they need to help their children. Not having resources or not being aware of resources isn't neglectful.


Yes. And obesity disproportionately affects the poor, who are also more likely to live in food deserts or who may not be able to afford high quality food.

I'm more inclined to look at food & health as social justice issues.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think it's hard to say. A lot of kids are drugged for various things like adhd these days and that can also contribute to weight gain. I think there are cases where a parent is at fault but there are also many other factors and it is hard to say what is going on even if on the surface it seems like a no brainer.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

If truly unhealthy foods were not available, this would be less of an issue. Isn't it true, for example, that trans fats are illegal in some countries? If trans fats are banned, and high fructose corn syrup banned, or at least limited, and other improvements made to the foods available, then we wouldn't need to be checking what parents are feeding to their children, as closely, anyway. And if black market food items became available, then it would be clearer that the parents were not doing their jobs.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

You can't judge another person's parenting by looking at their kid. That's just being judgmental, without even having all the information.

Some parents make decisions about their kids food that isn't the greatest. None the less, compared to some of the REAL CRISES with children, it's a small problem.

I work in a school where kids take home extra food for days off because their families don't have enough. I just can't get all worked up over someone else giving their kid a doughnut. We have bigger problems as a society.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

in general - not looking at individual cases but the whole issue i feel it is a social problem.

who is at fault - the government? corporations?

it all began with Wonder bread right? mothers were guilted into serving wonder bread to their family and instead of cooking they were supposed to spend more time with their family. and so food started being processed ...

... and slowly we forgot about nutrition, or even how to cook.

as science progressed so did food science and with the discovery of the bliss point food went to a whole nother level. addiction.

that is about nutrition.

about exercise? i dont know who to pin it on. ourselves? paranoia? or government? not enough support to families to give them opportunities to be out.

its easy to blame the parents. the onus is on someone else.

bottom line - personally i feel i am to blame. i just take care of my family but i dont do enough - dont take a stance to help the families around me - those who lovingly put mountain dew in baby bottles so the baby will hush up and give the parents enough time to rest before they have to be off to another job. i may have the privilege to boycott those companies but what am i trying to do to at least have others understand the labels they read.

why are they even allowed to manufacture those things. dd's coconut milk icecream. ridiculous. half a cup of icecream 11 gms of fat. how many people eat one scoop of icecream. its mostly always two including my dd - and that's 22 gms of fat right there.

i get the whole healthy fat debate.

which parent will knowingly 'do something harmful' their child. i am not including messed up parents here.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

I'm not sure it started with Wonder Bread, but what meemee is saying is along the same lines as what I am saying. Instead of wondering if the parents are negligent, we should be setting limits on just how bad food is allowed to be. Actually look for solutions instead of who is to blame.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> You can't judge another person's parenting by looking at their kid. That's just being judgmental, without even having all the information.
> 
> ...


Exactly. When there are so many kids not getting enough food, I'm not going to judge quality of what they can get. Some of the cheaper foods to buy are the worst but if you start wagging your fingers at their parents for doing what they can then you need to open up your own damn perfect pantry. And it's not just about what they eat either there are a lot of genetic factors at play.


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> it all began with Wonder bread right? mothers were guilted into serving wonder bread to their family and instead of cooking they were supposed to spend more time with their family. and so food started being processed ...


Wonder Bread is not the problem. Wonder Bread was far and away NOT the first commercially produced bread available. In fact, bread is one of the very first things that ever was commercially produced. Historically, bread baking has been a skilled profession, and the vast majority of people have purchased bread produced outside their homes. Making bread at home takes time, skill, and a giant piece of technology (an oven) which we tend to take for granted. My great-grandmother's recipe for Christmas turkey includes a reminder to start heating the oven on December 23rd - do you think she baked her own bread? There are some particular issues with Wonder Bread, but it's not responsible for the shift from home cooking to pre-prepared, processed foods.

Going further: I don't think that mothers who choose to spend time with their families instead of spending time cooking are the source of the obesity crises that we're seeing in public health in the United States. Both of the choices that you mention (time cooking vs. time with family) are choices made with a relatively high quantity of a particular resource. Either way, the mother in question has available leisure time, and can decide how to use it. I think the real health crisis is occurring among families where parents are working two or three jobs to make ends meet and have no time for either of these options, and among urban poor families, whose access to good food is limited by financial and transportation concerns, and who limit their children's activity levels because of safety concerns.

I agree with CI Mama that food and health are social justice issues. Before we judge anyone over their child's weight, we need to address the systemic problems that lead to that condition. There are a lot of those problems. The epidemic of obesity we're seeing in (especially poor) children is a symptom of some major social ills. We can't fix it, for an individual or for society as a whole, by condemning parents.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MeepyCat*
> 
> Wonder Bread is not the problem. Wonder Bread was far and away NOT the first commercially produced bread available.


oh no. wonder bread is not about commercially available food. it is about emotional and social manipulation by commercials.

i have a lot of old friends and they remember their change to wonder bread - because their moms felt guilty spending time away from the family making bread. instead they bought wonder bread.

commercially available food didnt become a problem till the 70s (i think) when they invented high fructose corn syrup. they discovered bliss point. no industry limitation of how much salt, sugar, fat to use and boom - world wide addiction. and its spreading.


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

Meemee, I'm confused. Wonder Bread wasn't the ztart of socially or emotionally manipulative advertising either. That's been around as long as there's been advertising.

There have never been industrial limitations on how much salt, sugar or fat went into food. There have sometimes been labelling requirements.


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

a slice of Wonder Bread is not an end all to me, a slightly over weight child because of meds is also not the same as morbid obesity and chronic health problems (because of the excess weight) that bring on an early death


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## Barefoot~Baker (Dec 25, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> You can't judge another person's parenting by looking at their kid. That's just being judgmental, without even having all the information.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

meepy wonder bread was the first product that made a mom feel guilty for slaving over the stove. they were the first to attack the mom zone. on radio in the 30s. sorry not tv commercials. they were not the first.

so for me wonder bread is just an example of commercial manipulation around food.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

The fact is we are unlikely to go back in time to when everything is made at home. Better regulation of the foods available would address the actual issue.


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

http://www.networkforphl.org/the_network_blog/2012/06/06/112/child_obesity_and_parental_rights


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

This issue is really, really complex. Pointing the finger at parents will do nothing but create a bigger problem. People need compassion, education, and an ethical standard among corporations and government.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> meepy wonder bread was the first product that made a mom feel guilty for slaving over the stove. they were the first to attack the mom zone. on radio in the 30s. sorry not tv commercials. they were not the first.
> 
> so for me wonder bread is just an example of commercial manipulation around food.


I thought the first was TV dinners.


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## amandak (Oct 30, 2011)

Isn't neglect purposefully not giving children what they need? Isn't it an all encompassing problem? A way of life and of parenting? Could you call extremely loving and attentive parents neglectful because of a food addiction? Isn't that judging a parent's entire job based upon the weight of their child? Isn't it judging and labeling them based upon their greatest weakness? And isn't it judging them based upon what they can see (weight) rather than the actual scientific reality (health?)

Then is it also neglectful for a parent to smoke? What about parents who don't give vitamins? The AAP is against bed sharing. Should bed sharing parents then be considered neglectful?

Obviously I don't think any of that is neglect. It's just a slippery slope. But it seems that all of these discussions about neglect (in many different forums) center around food, and I can't help but think it ties in with our entire society's view and judgment of weight issues. It would seem to me that smoking really is more harmful to kids that weight, but you never hear people wonder if that is neglect.


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## dovey (May 23, 2005)

I most definitely would not blame the parents without knowing the situation. I remember my overweight childhood friend was not allowed to eat sugar (because her mom was so concerned about her weight/appearance.) On her way home from school, she and her brother would stop at the gas station and buy lots of candy bars and then go and lock themselves in the gas station bathroom to eat them in secret before they went home. Food addiction starts early and for a variety of reasons, not just because parents give kids too much junk food.

Another person I know has battled food addiction and obesity his entire life. He had a similar situation as a child. His mother was concerned about nutrition and banned any unhealthy foods. When his dad would give him ice cream, his mom would sprinkle wheat germ on it before he ate it...So when he was alone, he would eat an entire container of Breyer's mint chip.


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## KaliShanti (Mar 23, 2008)

Genetics plays a huge part as well. I am on the other end. I can eat crappy food and not exercise And I might gain five pounds, MIGHT. Just because I'm thin genetically does that mean I am healthy on the inside? Nope. So it goes both ways. I guess what does bother me though is seeing really really obese toddlers with sodas in their bottles or soppy cups. It would be cheaper to put water... Things like that. I think education is key.


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## mamapigeon (Dec 16, 2010)

In some cases I think portion control might be the issue. I know I am completely lost on what a toddler size portion is, so I just give DS what I think he'll eat. Some children might be more likely to eat everything in front of them, either from being trained or just having a natural tendency.

I think labels need to include portion sizes for younger people, not just adults. Of course, most adults don't follow the portion recommendations on packages. Who eats just 13 chips or the correct serving size of ice cream? I know a lot of people on mothering don't ever have "junk" food in their homes, but most people do...

I agree with Dovey, it seems like heavy children have a supply of snacks outside the home. A friend I had as a child was probably 2x the ideal weight and despite her mother's attempts at getting her to eat better, my friend was able to use her allowance and other funds to get the food she wanted.


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

In terms of portion control - I don't like limiting children's access to food. Their appetites are inconsistent, and they melt down when they're hungry. Every now and then, DS will have a few days where he's achey and whiny and hungry all the time, and then he wakes up taller. I don't keep junk around, and I limit the supply of treats. I allow only one dessert per child per day (and I know they get candy and junk at school and in aftercare, and I hate that, but I don't want to get into power struggles about it). My kids are well aware that the first helping of dinner is going to be the most exciting, the second is probably pretty close, and once I run out of stuff I made for dinner, we're into leftovers. A child who asks for more food knowing that "more" means "leftover spaghetti with pesto and broccoli" is, IMO, genuinely hungry, and should not be prevented from eating.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

It's easy to point fingers and blame parents.

My youngest eats like a horse. Always has. We stopped going out to dinner when she ate two orders of fried mac & cheese as an app, a 16 oz steak w/a salad, baked potato, veggies, dessert. And a third order of mac & cheese. Ice cream when we got home.

And before you all gasp? She weighs in at 110 and is an athlete. She NEEDS that food.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

Pushing babies to eat, then being surprised when they fail to realize when they are full when they're older is an issue. Education can help with that.

Worrying about whether or not the parent(s) is/are neglecting may not correct the problem as much as identifying underlying causes of obesity, and addressing those with practical change. Education may be a part of the process. Only if the parent(s) is/are uncooperative would I worry about about neglect or abuse.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AmandaK*
> 
> Isn't neglect purposefully not giving children what they need? Isn't it an all encompassing problem? A way of life and of parenting? Could you call extremely loving and attentive parents neglectful because of a food addiction? Isn't that judging a parent's entire job based upon the weight of their child? Isn't it judging and labeling them based upon their greatest weakness? And isn't it judging them based upon what they can see (weight) rather than the actual scientific reality (health?)
> 
> ...


Def agree here.


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## Cyllya (Jun 10, 2009)

I think I'm more worried about Diet Mom behaviors than overfeeding kids.

Besides, I think if the kid is morbidly obese, rather than um, regular obese, there's more at play than an unhealthy grocery list and the parents being free range about food. Maybe he has another health problem. Maybe his parents are forcing him to eat a lot, which I think is abusive regardless of how fat he becomes. Maybe he has an eating disorder and wants way too much food. I can't blame the parents for not treating the eating disorder, because it seems most parents don't know a damn thing about mental health issues. A lot of mental health treatment is encouraged by schools, but schools are only concerned when it affects school-related behavior. (And if schools did start pushing for treatment of eating disorders, would the general public start start thinking of over-eating as some school-related problem, like they do with ADHD?)


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

My mother was always on a diet. I went on my first diet at eight years old. By the time I was 17 I was bulimic. I can't really blame her as she was also a victim. All of society has to change to change this problem.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

going a little OT...

... being the mother of an obese child i am rather sensitive to the present view of obese children.

... dd was obese due to genetics.

she is 10 now. nothing changed in her life. she still eats a LOT but she hit puberty. and most of her weight went away. she followed in her father's footsteps. fat till he hit puberty.

so when the pediatrician would wag a finger at dd - i'd jump on her. some kids are meant to be obese when young. just like some teens are meant to have a 'wheat' belly like me. she would never look at the full picture. dd ate healthy. really healthy. she was physically active.

she was not a junk food wall-E child. it was wrong of the ped (who hasnt followed dd since birth) to see all fat children with the same lens.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dalia*
> 
> My mother was always on a diet. I went on my first diet at eight years old. By the time I was 17 I was bulimic. I can't really blame her as she was also a victim. All of society has to change to change this problem.


Was it your mother's idea that you should diet?


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> Was it your mother's idea that you should diet?


No. It was my idea.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> going a little OT...
> 
> ...


Yeah, if my son's doc said anything about his weight I would be all over him. None of his business as far as I'm concerned. I also think that the mainstream idea of what is obese is completely messed up. And that whole body mass thing really drives me nuts. Everyone's body is different!


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I agree that all overweight kids aren't victims of neglect, but I do think that there's a level of obesity where, unless caused by a medical problem, the parents should have been in better control of the kid's diet and the parents have some responsibility. It is neglectful to allow your kids to become morbidly overweight if it is caused by the food they are eating.

On the other hand, I agree that the foods available in some poor neighborhoods are not healthy, and that people on food stamps or otherwise without much of a food budget sometimes have to get as many calories as they can for what money they have, and that might involve unhealthy food. Also, not everyone has good kitchen facilities or time to cook much, and convenience foods are much less healthy than foods cooked from scratch. So that complicates things tremendously.

I think it's a complicated issue. I don't think you can see an overweight kid and assume the kid is a victim of neglect, but on the other hand I think there are some situations where parents who could make better choices are buying junk and not putting limits on food for kids who need limits set. Obesity can be a serious medical issue and if it reaches the point where it's causing health problems, it warrants parents putting their feet down and not having unhealthy stuff in the house.


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

http://healthland.time.com/2013/04/12/study-finds-genetic-markers-for-severe-childhood-obesity/

http://childrens.org/health/causes-of-child-obesity/

genetics plays a role (only in certain medical conditions) but it does not play a role in the surge in numbers of children with *morbid* obesity (that is new in society)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> I agree that all overweight kids aren't victims of neglect, *but I do think that there's a level of obesity where, unless caused by a medical problem, the parents should have been in better control of the kid's diet and the parents have some responsibility. It is neglectful to allow your kids to become morbidly overweight if it is caused by the food they are eating.*


as the same as you are held neglectful if you starve you child - I feel if you (and or society) don't/doesn't address that it *is a problem* that can cause medical conditions and or death, there is not hope of getting the parents help in addressing the issue (s) - just saying it all about genetics is clearly not true in all cases


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

almost all of the breads you see on the supermarket shelves (excluding trader joes and wholefoods) are junk. I can smell the sugar an aisle away. I remember being on wic and having to choose a bread to buy...there was nothing worth consuming.(thats if you accept that gluten and sugar are things that kids should be eating alot of in the first place)

I think its ignorance on the part of parents. Not neglect.


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## Kamiro (Sep 3, 2011)

I'm obese and my kids are regular sized, about average. Little taller and little more weight than their peers, but never considered overweight.

The big difference between my kids and the average obese/overweight child is that my kids are home schooled, have more time to run around and less social pressure to eat junk. We do eat junk sometimes, but most of our diet is natural foods.

Their weight has very little to do with *me*.

One of my nephews was 140 pounds at 7 years old. It was sad, and even sadder is how he took pride in how big he was!

He sat in school most of the day, ate the newest fad "foods" and preferred hanging in the kitchen to playing outside. I wrongly assumed it was my aunt & uncle feeding him tons of junk because they do tend to have the newest snack foods around their house usually...

As the years went on, it really has become obvious it is some kind of difference in his brain.

He just looks at food very differently than many people, and I'm not sure it is something that could be easily remedied without a lot of counseling and life long intervention which comes at a high cost not counting that a person has to *want* to change.

Definitely don't think the parents (even if they are obese themselves) deserve condemnation for this....Just as I have normal sized children and I'm obese doesn't mean I've done extra great either.

We are responsible for our childrens health, and some times it is ridiculous how people eat- but neglect? No. I don't believe we can charge people with neglect for failing to provide something that comes at a high cost. (The "every child must have a yard of you're an unfit parent" syndrome)

I will give an example.

1 pound of lima beans in my area costs $2.19 (serious).

Living rural (60 miles to the nearest bulk food distributor) it costs $$ in gas and time to shop for bulk beans, produce and the like, so say that I need to feed my family on local (within 5 mile) food stores.

A dinner of lima beans with an onion thrown in and a couple boullion cubes would run about $5-$6. For one meal.

Mac n cheese or ramen could be whipped up for $3.

Add in the fact that many people have no idea how delicious eating beans, lentils and the like can be - and how un time consuming they can be with some advanced planning - you can easily see how in certain areas the unhealthy 'tastes good' food wins out.

Thankfully I am able to hit the bulk stores for healthy foods, but left to shop around here? Produce bill triples - easily...along with everything else.


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## purplerose (Dec 27, 2010)

My 10 year old is about 110 pounds. She has a big belly. She gets bullied for it by some boys at school, but some of the boys have crushes on her and "talk sweet to her"(whatever that means!) One doctor once told her she needed to lay off the sodas and exercise more!! OMG My child rarely got sodas (if we eat at a restaurant or bday party she does) and SHE IS NEVER STILL. She constantly is running, rolling, flipping, crawling, all she does when awake is exercise. There is no walking with her, it's run back and forth and spin and look at this and that. She plays softball (and is one of the best on her team each year), has practice twice a week for at least 2 hours each, and has at least one game a week. We never saw that doctor again, thankfully. Her arms, legs and butt are rock hard. Her belly is what's big, and her face.

She does eat like crazy. She will eat a ton of carrots, a ton of broccoli, just as easily as anything else. She just eats. I never restricted food or made food an issue in my home. My older two kids are not built like this at all, despite their eating habits. I hate nonstop throughout my childhood/teenage years. I HAD to! lol

My MIL is like 300+ pounds and has dieted and done so many things, but the only way she ever lost any weight was those hcg injections. She does NOT eat junk and is as active as she can physically be. My neice was a "fat" kid until she hit puberty(and she was NOT an active child at all, and did eat only junk food/fast food bc she was picky). I am hoping my daughter will slim down also. It should be hitting soon. I wouldn't care otherwise, but kids and people are so mean  She knows what she looks like. I know my daughter is extremely active and eats well. She's been tested for diabetes and had her thyroid tested also. You can never call "neglect" on someone without seeing their day-to-day life. Shame on any parent who would do that.


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## Snydley (Feb 22, 2012)

I've spent the last couple of years working in obesity research; however, I have no real expertise in this field. I've been to a few meetings and have heard what some sociologists have to say so I thought I'd chime in.

Firstly, obesity is the #1 heath crisis in this country. The rates of obesity have risen so dramatically since 1980 it is mind-blowing. In many states, 1 in 3 adults are obese. The health issues associated with obesity are numerous, life-threatening, and it will cost a fortune to treat.

Is genetics linked to size? Absolutely, but in my opinion genetics dictates whether you are a natural size 4 or 14, with 14 being a healthy size.

Consumption of high fat/processed foods is unequivocally driving this crisis, with the cheap cost and convenience of acquiring of these products.

Quote:


> I'm obese and my kids are regular sized, about average. Little taller and little more weight than their peers, but never considered overweight.
> 
> The big difference between my kids and the average obese/overweight child is that my kids are home schooled, have more time to run around and less social pressure to eat junk. We do eat junk sometimes, but most of our diet is natural foods.
> 
> Their weight has very little to do with *me*.


I'd say that your kids' weight has absolutely everything to do with you (the choices you made for them).

My DD is in kindergarten and the social pressure to eat junk is crazy! She needs to bring a snack to school each day that they have around 10am. I give her apple slices or some other type of fruit. She complains a lot about this, saying that all the other kids are eating cookies and gummy snacks. She also gets no dessert in her lunchbox and she isn't happy about that either. When she gets home from school, if she's hungry it's fruit, or hummus and carrots,etc. I figure if she's truly hungry she'll eat it. After dinner and on weekends she can have desserts. School is not a place for processed, high sugar, high fat foods. Eating that stuff causes blood sugar/insulin spikes that alter alertness and therefore directly impact learning. I feel in my town that I am definitely in the minority with this thinking and it's difficult to enforce as DD doesn't understand why she and she alone is eating this way.

Also, since I got into this line of research I started comparing the size of shoppers in a grocery store with what is in their cart..and it's then blatantly obvious why the vast majority of obese people are in fact that size. This coming from someone whom is not a perfect size 6 and loves junk food!

So is it "neglect"? Not necessarily- but it is our responsibility to establish healthy eating habits for our kids, and I do think doctors need to step in and inform/help parents with this process when needed.

-Jen


----------



## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dalia*
> 
> Yeah, if my son's doc said anything about his weight I would be all over him. *None of his business as far as I'm concerned.* I also think that the mainstream idea of what is obese is completely messed up. And that whole body mass thing really drives me nuts. Everyone's body is different!


Then why even take your kid to this doctor? You make it his business (literally and practically) when you bring your child in to be looked over by a particular doctor.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtiger*
> 
> Then why even take your kid to this doctor? You make it his business (literally and practically) when you bring your child in to be looked over by a particular doctor.


I don't make it his/her business. They make it their business. My son has a doctor that treats him when he is ill. I don't take my son in for "check ups". He is a great doctor. But if he ever said anything directly to my son about his weight that would be the last time we saw him. I don't think he would do that and that's why we see him. As far as him saying something to me, if my son is healthy and I know he is healthy then it's not really about my son, it's about a category that he's not fitting into.

I do know that obesity is a huge problem. Especially in my culture (Hispanic). I look at it as illness. Myself for example, I eat very healthy and exercise like mad. But I am constantly fighting off diabetes. There has got to be something about all this processed junk and chemicals that does something to our metabolism. I don't eat that stuff now but I did when I was a kid. Also, the societal ideal is INSANE and this creates eating disorders. I know because I had one and I sort of think I still do at times. I live with the tendency.
It's a tough battle. I think we need education and real research to solve the problem.


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## Kamiro (Sep 3, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snydley*
> 
> I've spent the last couple of years working in obesity research; however, I have no real expertise in this field. I've been to a few meetings and have heard what some sociologists have to say so I thought I'd chime in.
> 
> ...


Absolutely 100% agree. I think the larger obesity (you know 300+) is due to something being thrown off in our bodies and the bad 'food' being addictive. I don't think that is genetic.

We treat food the same way you do, it sounds like.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Case by case. I've seen a few cases that would definitely qualify as neglect (possibly even out and out abuse). But, you can't tell the whole story just by looking at a child.

I wasn't obese as a child (actually, I wasn't even really overweight, although I thought I was - I carry a lot of muscle, have short limbs and fairly large bones, which makes for a thick look. However, I had already developed sugar addiction and highly disordered eating. It had nothing whatsoever to do with my parents...and there's no way they could know I was taking my paper route money (including tips) and buying pastries at the bakery and candy at the corner store while doing my route.

DS1 had a teacher (one I really loved, in most ways) who gave the kids candies as little rewards. He didn't get candy at home, but he got it at school. Fortunately, he never really got hooked on sugar the way some kids do, but there are no guarantees.

I've raised all my kids the same way with respect to food. DS1 and dd1 have healthy eating habits and are slim. DS2 doesn't have healthy eating habits (aside from anything else, he eats when he's bored, and also uses "I'm hungry" and food as an avoidance tactic). He's not at an unhealthy weight, but he's near the edge, I think. Fortunately, he gets lots of exercise.


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *dalia* 

I don't make it his/her business. They make it their business.


> *I do know that obesity is a huge problem.* Especially in my culture (Hispanic). I look at it as illness.


Dr.s are there to treat the whole person, IMO- it is their business- the whole body works together or it doesn't work properly hence the reason weight effects so many aspects of health.

Obesity most definitely is a HUGE problem (both medical and economically) - as a society we are as large as we have ever been and increasing! Genetic alone does not account for the increase of the population in the morbid obesity category. Obesity is an illness, that is how it is called into neglect when a parent does not treat it.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think doctors have a responsibility to say something about unhealthy behavior. Some are more tactful than others though and I have found my dd's more experienced pediatrician does a great job of educating parents without putting guilt there.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

If my son had diabetes or another weight related illness then that would be one thing. But he should talk directly to me, not my son.


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## mamarhu (Sep 12, 2004)

In the interest of full disclosure, my degree is as a Health Educator, and I do social work in the field of children's mental health.









No surprise - I think education is the key. I work with many families where Mom really doesn't know how to shop for or cook healthy, frugal food for the family. She buys prepared dinners, individually packaged "fruit" snacks (gummy candy that is advertised as healthy), individual bottles of Gatorade (seen as healthier than soda pop), all with good intentions. I share hints when I can, without coming off as too judgmental. Maybe a recipe for a pot of bean soup, or how to squeeze 2 or 3 dinners out of one small chicken. Our city has truly great tap water - no need to buy drinks at all! Which farmer's market offers double the value for SNAP funds. But my small scale education plan is nothing in the face of the advertising industry's ability to sell unnecessary products to the most vulnerable consumers.

Poverty and lack of availability of healthy foods contribute more to the problem than neglect. I meet few parents who don't care. They may not have the means or the knowledge to do better in the nutrition department. I wish schools would teach the practical aspects of cooking and nutrition to every child. In an ideal world, this would be taught at home, but that doesn't seem to be working. But I think it would go far to combat the pervasive effects of advertising.


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## Kamiro (Sep 3, 2011)

Mamarhu - I just wanted to say that it is solely the result of people being non judgmental and helping by example that we eat the way that we do. I had no idea you could do so many things with beans, and lentils and how delicious fruit and veggies can be until about 5 years ago. I ALWAYS loved salad and fruit, but it was more of a 'treat' whereas the processed food was the day to day 'food'. You know, boxed noodles/meat/canned vegetable/canned fruit for dinner was typical.

Keep doing what you're doing, and even if you don't personally see the results - seeds do get planted!

I thank the heavens for all of my crunchy wholesome food eating friends. I would never have learned about all of this without them!


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

My daughter has always been round, but I've always been careful about what we eat and have in our house. We get a lot of activity. When she was nearly four, she developed a movement disorder and went from a typical, healthy, active kid to a an inability to walk - for months. It was horrible. Obviously, she put on weight. I mean, duh. Then she went through a few meds, most of which made her hungry and/or tired. More weight. She was chunky, but not Maury Povitch-ready. We saw one neurologist who yanked up her shirt, grabbed her tummy and said, "Well THIS isn't doing her any good" - lady, eff you. Seriously, eff right the hell off.

Fast forward three years and things are better. She has grown taller without getting much heavier and the size gap between her and her peers is closing. I send her lunch, I cook, we don't keep junk in the house and though she can't run, we bike, swim, etc. I am room parent and I volunteer for everything so I control the snacks at school and activities, too (at this point, they get just as excited over rainbow fruit kebabs as cupcakes, don't know what I'll do if they ever start to wonder...hey,where are the cookies and cakes???).

I have discussed this with her pediatrician who says just wait it out. Putting a child on a diet is just opening her up to misery. She's somewhat overweight but not in a way that threatens her health, so we can wait.

I am lucky. My daughter likes fresh fruit and vegetables. Though she enjoys sweets, she knows they have a time and place. She likes being as active as she can manage. My husband works from home and I'm a SAHM. We have the funds to buy quality over convenience...and my child is still overweight. I have lunch with her class often so I know that some of these kids are rail thin even though they eat snack cakes and Lunchables every day. They won't drink water, ask for soda. And still, they're skinny. It's not always fair.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dalia*
> 
> If my son had diabetes or another weight related illness then that would be one thing. But he should talk directly to me, not my son.


I think a lot depends... If the doctor knows that there is a family history of obesity and/or diabetes, then it really is the responsible thing on his/her part to raise that issue. Depending on the child's age, I really don't think it's wrong to help the child develop responsibility for his/her body and its health by having these kinds of discussions with the child, as well as the parent.


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

I agree mtiger

Quote:
Originally Posted by *mtiger* 

I think a lot depends... If the doctor knows that there is a family history of obesity and/or diabetes, then *it really is the responsible thing on his/her part to raise that issue.* Depending on the child's age, I really don't think it's wrong to help the child develop responsibility for his/her body and its health by having these kinds of discussions with the child, as well as the parent.

If my son had diabetes or another weight related illness then that would be one thing. *But he should talk directly to me, not my son.*

I read this too and wondered about what it meant - IMO it's my child's Dr (in our case a Ped) and we encourage our DS to talk to his Dr and his Dr does talk to him. We want our DS to have a rapport I don't get not wanting it???? Why even see a Dr if you don't want their help?


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

many of the peds i meet are awful. they tow the government line. they make judgements - the same kind this thread is talking about. they assume since your child is overweight they must be eating crap and does not exercise. and if they do exercise then perhaps they are not doing enough. it is one thing to ask questions to find out what the diet is like and what physical activity they do and then say something. but its quite another thing to look at the scale to come off and make statements without finding out anything about the family.

is there a solution in sight?

no i dont think so. if there was there would be more regulation of the food industry from the government. but since the government IS the food industry - the blame is going to be on the parents.

processed food today is not food but a drug. the most insidious drug we have. there is no industry limit to the amount of sugar, salt or fat in food. most of america eats what i myself dont call food.

it takes an incredible amount of effort to learn about nutrition and cooking. and it isnt a social class issue either. i've seen the rich - moderately as well as REALLY rich eat pretty nasty stuff themselves.

look at breakfast itself. its sugar and grain or high fat.

we have an epidemic here. we complain if we see a small portion on our platter. every aspect of our eating has become tainted. food/eating today is seen as unimportant. something to hurry up and do.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

The big belly thing could be a sign of gluten intolerance. Otherwise she sounds very healthy.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *purplerose*
> 
> My 10 year old is about 110 pounds. She has a big belly. She gets bullied for it by some boys at school, but some of the boys have crushes on her and "talk sweet to her"(whatever that means!)


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> I read this too and wondered about what it meant - IMO it's my child's Dr (in our case a Ped) and we encourage our DS to talk to his Dr and his Dr does talk to him. We want our DS to have a rapport I don't get not wanting it???? Why even see a Dr if you don't want their help?


Physical exams are required by law at times... I don't know if schools require annual check-ups, but to homeschool in my state, one is required at the start of the home education program and in 6th grade. They are required for joining sports teams as well. My ds was required to have a physical before getting dental work done under general anaesthesia. It could also be that a parent would want to take their child in for regular exams because they were nervous of being accused of being neglectful, if they were worried about CPS because they didn't have a mainstream lifestyle. So, there are many reasons that a parent might take a child to the doctor and not really be looking for much input from the doctor.

I certainly haven't been told anything useful at exams though I appreciate having ds's good health confirmed. And I really appreciate that we got a different doctor in the practice, this time, and I didn't have to explain yet again why we don't vax and that I didn't have to listen to him give me a BMI lecture. I'm quite aware ds is "at risk for obesity" according to the charts. But since he doesn't drink soda or juice or eat fast food, and we do a daily 2 mile walk/jog, the typical lecture is simplistic and unhelpful. I just take ds in when required by law. He isn't going to develop a rapport when he is seen by a different person each time, anyway.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> many of the peds i meet are awful. they tow the government line. they make judgements - the same kind this thread is talking about. they assume since your child is overweight they must be eating crap and does not exercise.


I took ds to one dentist who simply did. not. believe me when I told him ds didn't have a high sugar diet. Some doctors and dentists really just feel mothers are ignorant and don't even know what they are feeding their children. And some are. But it's damn annoying when they think you are filling your baby's bottle with soda and just lying about it. It's great if you get a good one but there are a lot of bad ones out there, too. And being able to actually choose a pediatrician rather than being assigned one or being limited by transportation options is a luxury for many.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

I think there's a huge difference between a healthy active kid who is a little higher on the BMI curve and a child who can't walk half a block without gasping for breath and who wears adult XXL gym shorts year-round because they're the only garments that go around the middle and don't drag on the ground. I volunteer with at-risk kids and I've seen quite a few of the latter. I'm not sure I'd call it neglect, but I also don't think it's inappropriate for doctors and social workers to address the issues.


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *4evermom*
> 
> Physical exams are required by law at times... I don't know if schools require annual check-ups, but to homeschool in my state, one is required at the start of the home education program and in 6th grade. They are required for joining sports teams as well. My ds was required to have a physical before getting dental work done under general anaesthesia. It could also be that a parent would want to take their child in for regular exams because they were nervous of being accused of being neglectful, if they were worried about CPS because they didn't have a mainstream lifestyle. So, there are many reasons that a parent might take a child to the doctor and not really be looking for much input from the doctor.
> 
> I certainly haven't been told anything useful at exams though I appreciate having ds's good health confirmed. And I really appreciate that we got a different doctor in the practice, this time, and I didn't have to explain yet again why we don't vax and that I didn't have to listen to him give me a BMI lecture. I'm quite aware ds is "at risk for obesity" according to the charts. But since he doesn't drink soda or juice or eat fast food, and we do a daily 2 mile walk/jog, the typical lecture is simplistic and unhelpful. I just take ds in when required by law. He isn't going to develop a rapport when he is seen by a different person each time, anyway.


I was responding to talking to the child - *But he should talk directly to me, not my son.*

how do you tell a Dr not to talk to your 6th grader? and why shouldn't they not know at that age, they are at risk for obesity?


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Well, some doctors have poor people skills or think it's acceptable to use scare tactics when talking to kids. I'm happy to have the doctor talk to me and let me disseminate the info to ds in a way that I think is appropriate.


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## Caneel (Jun 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> Pushing babies to eat, then being surprised when they fail to realize when they are full when they're older is an issue. Education can help with that.


Yep. I came from a food pusher family. I was forced (as in not being allowed to get up from the table) to eat whatever and how much my mom put on my plate. I am not talking about encouraging a kid to try a bite of a new food. I am talking about cup*s* of mashed potatoes, huge slabs of meat sliding off the plate, multiple servings of beans, more food then an adult should eat. It was crazy. As a result, I am NEVER full, ever. It is like I lost that "switch" that tells my brain I am full. I am 70+ pounds over weight, eat (almost) only homemade, good foods (no junk) and can't stop eating.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kamiro*
> 
> Add in the fact that many people have no idea how delicious eating beans, lentils and the like can be - and how un time consuming they can be with some advanced planning - you can easily see how in certain areas the unhealthy 'tastes good' food wins out.
> 
> Thankfully I am able to hit the bulk stores for healthy foods, but left to shop around here? Produce bill triples - easily...along with everything else.


Recently I listened to a very interesting radio segment about the difference between being poor and food challenged two or three generations ago and poor and food challenged now. Basically, the point was made that the shift in food stamp benefits towards making it easier for people to buy "junk" or packaged foods, juices, sodas, etc. has created a huge public health issue in the form of obescity, that generations back people were cooking bulk oatmeal, beans and like because that is all they had. I don't know if it is true (about past generations) but it sort of makes sense to me.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Nonsence. Food stamps makes it easier to buy quality foods. Without it, many people would have to depend on things like wic. I dont consider wic foods quality foods. For eg, you are forced to get peanut butter full of hydrogenated oils, rather than the one containing healthy oils. The milk is junk milk, you certainly cant get organic milk. It is not a matter of price. Cereals full of genetically modified corn and so on....

I am glad i dont depend on the government to tell me what is healthy (as you do on wic)

Foods stamps just gives people choice. Educate the parents, or let them educate themselves. But dont take food money away from the poor.

(thats the worst solution i have ever heard of to combat obesity)


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## Kamiro (Sep 3, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Caneel*
> 
> Yep. I came from a food pusher family. I was forced (as in not being allowed to get up from the table) to eat whatever and how much my mom put on my plate. I am not talking about encouraging a kid to try a bite of a new food. I am talking about cup*s* of mashed potatoes, huge slabs of meat sliding off the plate, multiple servings of beans, more food then an adult should eat. It was crazy. As a result, I am NEVER full, ever. It is like I lost that "switch" that tells my brain I am full. I am 70+ pounds over weight, eat (almost) only homemade, good foods (no junk) and can't stop eating.
> 
> Recently I listened to a very interesting radio segment about the difference between being poor and food challenged two or three generations ago and poor and food challenged now. Basically, the point was made that the shift in food stamp benefits towards making it easier for people to buy "junk" or packaged foods, juices, sodas, etc. has created a huge public health issue in the form of obescity, that generations back people were cooking bulk oatmeal, beans and like because that is all they had. I don't know if it is true (about past generations) but it sort of makes sense to me.


I don't feel ever full either. I mean, I have to be stuffed and bloated before I feel full. I guess I never realized the food pusher and obesity and not feeling full were probably all related.

We eat no HFCS, and 80% of our diet is whole grains, whole food - wholesome food...so I am starting to feel fuller than I use to eating processed food (boxed noodles and the like) ...My husband is thin and he eats the same amount as I do - he is more active than I. I have started a 45 minutes of exercise (zumba, yoga, bellydance etc) every day or every other day recently. I definitely feel better!

I actually agree with the radio show. I am NOT saying to take food stamps away from the poor because it does help people make quality choices if they want to..BUT - if every one had to only eat what they actually could grow and afford - we would see more oatmeal, and beans and 'depression' era servings of meat and dairy than we do now.

If you had $4 for food are you going to spend it on a box of oatmeal and some butter or a box of fruit by the foot....

I think that sounds like the point the show was making and I agree with that.

Ok, I really better go get my house clean


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## Kamiro (Sep 3, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> Nonsence. Food stamps makes it easier to buy quality foods. Without it, many people would have to depend on things like wic. I dont consider wic foods quality foods. For eg, you are forced to get peanut butter full of hydrogenated oils, rather than the one containing healthy oils. The milk is junk milk, you certainly cant get organic milk. It is not a matter of price. Cereals full of genetically modified corn and so on....
> 
> ...


We've actually hit hard times recently (we live in an area where tourism is a lot of the $$ maker) and have to use the food stamp system periodically.

If we didn't have food stamps we could not eat as healthy as we do. Absolutely costco organic fruits and vegetables in bulk and their beans and rice and all the healthy options they have - HELP with us eating healthy...

However, I had a neighbor who had foodstamps who considered those kinds of food 'poor foods' and would spend the last $4 on a box of (no generic!) cereal over oatmeal. Just poor food choices and I wondered at the time if she would make the same choices if they didn't have more foodstamps coming in XX days and she really had to spend that last amount of food on some thing that was really food.

I hope you kwim. I don't think taking away food stamps from people in this economy would solve anything, but there is some truth to the observation made by the radio show IMHO.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Blaming obesity on food stamps is illogical. A hundred years ago, people didn't have the option of buying boxed meals, sodas, etc., because they weren't available to purchase. So, they bought beans, oatmeal, etc. The processed, boxed, packaged food has become very, very cheap (and convenient), so people buy it. Food stamps aren't the issue. Cheap, crappy food is the issue. (Well, I think there are multiple issues, but that's one of them - a big one.)


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

In the days before food stamps, not very many poor people were obese, true, however many of them were malnourished and even starving. Overweight is better than starving.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

As far as not wanting the doc to speak directly to my child, I have this to say: I am someone who has suffered from an eating disorder. As such, I know how damaging and confusing a single comment can be to a child who never thought there was anything wrong with his/her body, and now suddenly they are being told that their is something wrong. I don't trust everyone to know what that is like, and sometimes docs can get removed from situations in regards to empathy because they see so many patients or what not. Some doctors are brilliant but can't seem to relate to people on a compassionate level. It's not always their fault, but I have experienced it many times.

Even a very empathetic person can say something very damaging. Because I have so much personal experience, I want to be the one to decide whether or not or how something will be said to my child regarding his weight.


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> In the days before food stamps, not very many poor people were obese, true, however many of them were malnourished and even starving. Overweight is better than starving.


Sometimes being overweight can be the result of not getting enough nutrition though: the body isn't getting enough vitamins and minerals from the low quality food, so it keeps sending the "hungry" message even when the caloric needs have been exceeded.


----------



## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NiteNicole*
> 
> I have lunch with her class often so I know that some of these kids are rail thin even though they eat snack cakes and Lunchables every day. They won't drink water, ask for soda. And still, they're skinny. It's not always fair.


I've seen this too. The skinniest boy in my DS's class is also the one whose mom brings him McDonald's for lunch regularly, sends Oreos for his morning snack, etc. So judging solely by the weight of the child can be deceiving -- this boy's mother isn't a better parent than the rest of us because her kid manages to stay skinny despite his poor diet, you know?


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## Kamiro (Sep 3, 2011)

The very fact that diabetics are instantly cured of diabetes when they have gastric bypass tells me that the story is much more complicated than calories in-calories out. So much we accept as fact that does not make sense always.


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## PacificMar (Jul 24, 2012)

As a physician, I see children of all shapes, and although I share my colleagues' concern about the heath consequences of obesity, I'm also concerned that overweight children end up bearing the brunt of these legitimate worries because their (often genetically determined) response to non-nutritious food and sedentary lifestyles is visible, while a slender child may be just as inactive and may eat equally unhealthy processed foods. The health consequences for this child can start out invisible until a medical investigation shows blood sugar or cardiovascular problems. That's why I ask all families about their diet and exercise habits, regardless of their body-mass index. I find that non-judgmental education, and addressing obstacles to change such as difficulty obtaining access to affordable healthy foods or limited time to prepare them, goes much further than a shaming approach. Many parents are aware of the problems and just need encouragement and practical advice, such as quick whole-food recipes and the little-known fact that at least in my state (Oregon), local food coops and farmers' market vendors accept food stamps for organic produce. Sure, there are always folks who don't want to change, but I find the vast majority experience economic and educational rather than motivational obstacles.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PacificMar*
> 
> the little-known fact that at least in my state (Oregon), local food coops and farmers' market vendors accept food stamps for organic produce.


Cool! I wonder if that's true here in northern CA.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rachelsmama*
> 
> Sometimes being overweight can be the result of not getting enough nutrition though: the body isn't getting enough vitamins and minerals from the low quality food, so it keeps sending the "hungry" message even when the caloric needs have been exceeded.


I've actually seen this happen. I know a kid who always asks for third, fourth, and sometimes fifth, slices of bread (just as an example). His family eats plain white bread. When eating a whole wheat/multigrain bread, he stopped at two (a sandwich) and had no interest in any more. While I don't think multigrain bread is the most nutrient dense food available, it's definitely more so than white bread packed with corn syrup, yk? I saw him do the same thing with a lot of other foods...always wanting a bunch of hot dogs, but satisfied with half the amount of good quality meat, etc. It was the first time I realized that he was overweight (not obese), but also malnourished. He wasn't hungry for the calories - they were just a byproduct of his hunger for micronutrients.


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## Snydley (Feb 22, 2012)

Quote:


> The very fact that diabetics are instantly cured of diabetes when they have gastric bypass tells me that the story is much more complicated than calories in-calories out. So much we accept as fact that does not make sense always.


Type II diabetes (an autoimmune disease) occurs in response to excess fat (adipose tissue) and no one understands why at this point (research just beginning!). Yes, when you lose the weight, the disease vanishes. Also, 25% of obese individuals will not develop Type II diabetes...no one knows why yet. The other 75% will progress to active disease.

Put simply, the immune system goes haywire in response to excess fat.


----------



## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 

I think *there's a huge difference between a healthy active kid who is a little higher on the BMI curve and a child who can't walk half a block without gasping for breath and who wears adult XXL gym shorts year-round because they're the only garments that go around the middle and don't drag on the ground.*

very true!

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Snydley* 

Type II diabetes (an autoimmune disease) occurs in response to excess fat (adipose tissue) and no one understands why at this point (research just beginning!). Yes, when you lose the weight, the disease vanishes. Also, 25% of obese individuals will not develop Type II diabetes...no one knows why yet. The other 75% will progress to active disease.

Put simply, the immune system goes haywire in response to excess fat.

and diabetes is not the only health problem an obese child faces

Quote:

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *4evermom*
> 
> Well, some doctors have poor people skills or think it's acceptable to use scare tactics when talking to kids. I'm happy to have the doctor talk to me and let me disseminate the info to ds in a way that I think is appropriate.
> 
> ...


I would expect that if a Dr didn't discuss it that would be neglectful!

I do find it perplexing that some think you can keep the information (and think it's good too) from a teenage child (6th grade age) that they are "at risk" and not knowing is beneficial. Short of a bubble I don't see it happening or working IRL.

I don't get how you tell the Dr not to speak to the child about it - that would really cause "red flag" IMO and make the Dr really wonder about the parent and the child's lifestyle.


----------



## Kamiro (Sep 3, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snydley*
> 
> Type II diabetes (an autoimmune disease) occurs in response to excess fat (adipose tissue) and no one understands why at this point (research just beginning!). Yes, when you lose the weight, the disease vanishes. Also, 25% of obese individuals will not develop Type II diabetes...no one knows why yet. The other 75% will progress to active disease.
> 
> Put simply, the immune system goes haywire in response to excess fat.


The way I have seen it work in family members who have had the disease is that they are completely insulin dependent diabetic...They got the surgery and they were told never to take insulin again. They were STILL obese/fat when they came out of the surgery. It has been four months for my step mom since the surgery and she was told she was cured and has not had one drop of insulin since she had the surgery. She was still fat, (but she is now down 90 pounds). This has happened to two diabetic family members.

Gastric bypass did not automatically make them thin. The researchers speculate at this point that the gut bacteria is different in obese and something about the surgery corrects that and the diabetes goes away. I believe John Hopkins Univ. is where the research is going on at.

Basically, with people who get this surgery the disease vanishes before the fat does.


----------



## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> I do find it perplexing that some think you can keep the information (and think it's good too) from a teenage child (6th grade age) that they are "at risk" and _not knowing is beneficial_. Short of a bubble I don't see it happening or working IRL.
> 
> I don't get how you tell the Dr not to speak to the child about it - that would really cause "red flag" IMO and make the Dr really wonder about the parent and the child's lifestyle.


I for one never said that the child should not know if something is wrong. If the child had an actually problem then of course the doc is going to discuss it with them depending on the age (for instance, if a child is three years old and is diagnosed with leukemia then that will be communicated to the parents first). But if the only problem the doc sees is that the child is overweight, then in my opinion any communication regarding that needs to go from the doc to the parent and then to the child if the parent sees it as an actual problem. A child not fitting into a category concerning their BMI may not be a real problem.


----------



## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *journeymom*
> 
> Cool! I wonder if that's true here in northern CA.


not all of them, but many of them do so here in N CA (that is california).

btw there are local organizations helping poorer areas get access to fresh food. the sad part is that the same organizations have found they need to also teach them how to cook or else they dont know what to do with say butternut squash or a healthier way to cook carrots. they do simple food demonstrations.


----------



## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kamiro*
> 
> I don't feel ever full either. I mean, I have to be stuffed and bloated before I feel full. I guess I never realized the food pusher and obesity and not feeling full were probably all related.
> We eat no HFCS, and 80% of our diet is whole grains, whole food - wholesome food...so I am starting to feel fuller than I use to eating processed food (boxed noodles and the like) ...My husband is thin and he eats the same amount as I do - he is more active than I. I have started a 45 minutes of exercise (zumba, yoga, bellydance etc) every day or every other day recently. I definitely feel better!
> ...


Do you mean that people in apartments are supposed to grow their own food?

In general, some people make poor food and/or money choices, and believe their choices are good. Sometimes they are open to education, sometimes not. If really poor food was simply not available for them to choose, it would help. People are not going to make their own transfats, or high fuctose corn syrup. Why are those things allowed? And genetic modification? We are experimenting with children on a wide scale. We should be protesting, and trying to change things for the better, not sitting on the sidelines passing judgment.


----------



## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> I do find it perplexing that some think you can keep the information (and think it's good too) from a teenage child (6th grade age) that they are "at risk" and not knowing is beneficial. Short of a bubble I don't see it happening or working IRL.
> 
> I don't get how you tell the Dr not to speak to the child about it - that would really cause "red flag" IMO and make the Dr really wonder about the parent and the child's lifestyle.


I will note that dalia's child is only 4. I can see how she might be iffy about the doc talking to the child only. I do still think that it's good to involve the child, even at a young age. Hopefully, yhe parent has chosen a ped who they are comfortable with handling the situation well...


----------



## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtiger*
> 
> I will note that dalia's child is only 4. I can see how she might be iffy about the doc talking to the child only. I do still think that it's good to involve the child, even at a young age. Hopefully, yhe parent has chosen a ped who they are comfortable with handling the situation well...


if you noticed I had quoted another poster - regardless I read what she posted and I still don't get it- how you tell the Dr not to say anything??

But if the only problem the doc sees is that the child is overweight, then in my opinion any communication regarding that needs to go from the doc to the parent and then to the child if the parent sees it as an actual problem. A child not fitting into a category concerning their BMI may not be a real problem.


----------



## Caneel (Jun 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> In general, some people make poor food and/or money choices, and believe their choices are good. Sometimes they are open to education, sometimes not. *If really poor food was simply not available for them to choose, it would help. People are not going to make their own transfats, or high fuctose corn syrup.* Why are those things allowed? And genetic modification? *We are experimenting with children on a wide scale.* We should be protesting, and trying to change things for the better, not sitting on the sidelines passing judgment.


That was the point of the radio show I listened too. It made one point about how if the government would try to restrict highly processed foods under assistance programs, the backlash from Big Business would be so great, it will likely never happen. Meanwhile, generations of kids are being raised on Juicy Juicy and Coco Puffs instead of water and oatmeal (or whatever). It never said take food stamps away, just make it a better program that helps instead of hurts a good portion of those it is suppose to benefit.

The surplus outlets (the place to go for bulk beans, grains, flour, rice as well as produce) and the larger farmers markets in my area do accept Access/food stamps.


----------



## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> if you noticed I had quoted another poster - regardless I read what she posted and I still don't get it- how you tell the Dr not to say anything??


I wasn't offering ideas on "how," I was simply answering "why" a parent might want that. I suppose people who take their child for exams regularly can build up that rapport that someone mentioned.

I expected we might get a BMI lecture and get quizzed about what ds had for breakfast. I talked about that with ds in advance and wasn't concerned about it, myself. I was more concerned with ds knowing he is allowed to say no to the doctor. Now that he is older, I want him to be prepared if he does end up in a private situation with the doctor. I gave ds some phrases he could use if the doctor wanted to give him a vaccine while I wasn't around (thinking of that one they like to give tweens, the HPV.) And ds got to practice saying no to the doctor when he wanted to check his genitals, lol. I asked the doctor what he would be looking for. He answered that he'd be checking for signs of puberty and to be sure the testicles were descended. Knowing that they were, and ds being uncomfortable was good reason to politely decline. And ds got some experience navigating that sort of situation.


----------



## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> if you noticed I had quoted another poster - regardless I read what she posted and I still don't get it- how you tell the Dr not to say anything??
> 
> ...


I would just stop them if they were going in that direction and say thank you but we're not concerned with that. If I thought there truly might be an issue then I would call the office and speak to the doc later.

And yes, my son is only three so right now it makes more sense than ever. But even at twelve I would be very cautious about what is said to him regarding his weight. We can talk about nutrition and all that, and we do (we have a naturopath), but if the doc starts to judge the size of my son's body and make assumptions that he is eating junk food then the convo would stop right there.

Sorry for taking this thread so OT.


----------



## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Today's moms aren't any more neglectful than yesterday's moms. What's different is the overwhelming, oppressive, all pervasive manufactured food culture. It is inescapable, and plenty of moms aren't even aware that there's an alternative.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *mamarhu*
> 
> I wish schools would teach the practical aspects of cooking and nutrition to every child. In an ideal world, this would be taught at home, but that doesn't seem to be working. But I think it would go far to combat the pervasive effects of advertising.


I so, so agree. Take those old home economics class rooms and use them to teach kids about...advertising techniques, the history of processed foods, how our hunger works and why we crave certain foods, how diabetes works, how their taste buds are being manipulated by super sweet, super salty, super smooth foods. Are hamburger buns supposed to be 'sweet'? Not particularly, right? Have kids taste a home made bun with little to no sugar, along side a commercially manufactured one. The store-bought or fastfood bun is sweeter, and kids grow up thinking that's what's normal. And so a regular bun without a lot of sugar doesn't taste right.

Teach them the history of farm subsidies for corn and show them how the unbelievably massive glut of corn for the past 60 years has effected what's available to eat. Open their eyes.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> People are not going to make their own transfats, or high fuctose corn syrup. Why are those things allowed?


I'm with you. Some pro-real-food author, maybe Michael Pollan, gives an example of where the food industry has tried to self regulate with no success. I hope I get this right, I heard the tail end of the conversation. Several years ago Campbell's Soup reduced the amount of salt in one of its soups. Sales dropped immediately. People hated it. So they went back to the original recipe and packaged the reduced sodium version separately. Pollan has worked with/interviewed several people within the commercial food industry who point out they don't want to make their customers sick. They're in the business of feeding people, which is can be a wonderful thing.

Now I'm not sure where I was going with this, and it's not entirely related to what you said anyway.


----------



## Kamiro (Sep 3, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> Do you mean that people in apartments are supposed to grow their own food?
> 
> In general, some people make poor food and/or money choices, and believe their choices are good. Sometimes they are open to education, sometimes not. If really poor food was simply not available for them to choose, it would help. People are not going to make their own transfats, or high fuctose corn syrup. Why are those things allowed? And genetic modification? We are experimenting with children on a wide scale. We should be protesting, and trying to change things for the better, not sitting on the sidelines passing judgment.


No idea where the "people in apartments growing their own food came from":.But yes, I have lived in apartments and unsuccessfully done container gardening - so that IS an option for a lot of people. Hopefully with more success.









I am also NOT passing judgment except for when people have good money and still buy name brand junk- education is OUT there as you say. Even at my worst educated I still knew "Fruit by the foot" was not a replacement for an apple.

I also agree about better food selection 100% and corporate sponsored advertised franken foods. None of the new experiments have helped us, and as the years go on and Monsanto grows stronger it will probably be much worse.

I get where you are coming from, and I agree...

however..It still does not change my opinion that---- your food lifestyle will match your food budget or there is trouble.

If you had $50 a month for food to feed your family you are going to choose the cheapest option to do it. Many times that is beans, rice, oatmeal etc. I believe the 30 days around the world food photo essay really opened many people eyes about this...

By stating the above I am NOT ADVOCATING TAKING AWAY FOOD STAMPS. I am unsure why people are so quick to assume this as it is a completely unrelated conclusion being drawn from the above observation.

An unrelated example: Not many people wildcraft ( whom have the ability) to provide nutrition for the family, but if there were no more greens being sold in stores for whatever reason - people would quickly learn how to and that wisdom would be really respected. This is a fact of life- and it doesn't mean I am advocating for a reduction in food stamps or the closing down of stores. That conclusion being drawn is unrelated to the statement.

The most obese people in my family do not receive food stamps. We receive food stamps when we need to. There is no judgment on my part about the food stamp system in America.

I believe I have stated my point on that clearly here and any other differences are ...well...moot at this point.


----------



## Kamiro (Sep 3, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Caneel*
> 
> That was the point of the radio show I listened too. It made one point about how if the government would try to restrict highly processed foods under assistance programs, the backlash from Big Business would be so great, it will likely never happen. Meanwhile, generations of kids are being raised on Juicy Juicy and Coco Puffs instead of water and oatmeal (or whatever). It never said take food stamps away, just make it a better program that helps instead of hurts a good portion of those it is suppose to benefit.
> 
> The surplus outlets (the place to go for bulk beans, grains, flour, rice as well as produce) and the larger farmers markets in my area do accept Access/food stamps.


Thanks for clarifying this.

Sounds like they were advocating for a return to the old commodities style system. Cheese, powd. milk, butter, dried fruit, peanut butter, beans, rice, oatmeal - staples. I remember that, and it probably WAS healthier than most every ones diets today.

I don't know if that would be possible in this economic system but also - I do like choice. If someone wants to buy their kid a birthday cake on food stamps - I think that should totally be their choice. How many times have we had govt/other take over food choice through programs and it winds up being non-healthy? EX: WIC and all the gallons of milk but no substitute for goat milk or whatnot.

You take the kings money you dance to his tune.


----------



## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Meemee's comment about Wonder Bread reminded me of what another foodie author said (maybe it was Michael Pollan again) about home cooking. He theorized that in order to create a problem we didn't know we had, that the food manufacturers could then provide the solution for, they had to convince us that cooking real foods was drudge work and that modern women were supposed to be freeing themselves of the burden of cooking.

And that strongly reminds me of my mom's whole generation that were taught that breastfeeding is for uneducated, unliberated, lower class domestic women. You weren't liberated unless you bottle fed your babies.


----------



## Kamiro (Sep 3, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *journeymom*
> 
> Meemee's comment about Wonder Bread reminded me of what another foodie author said (maybe it was Michael Pollan again) about home cooking. He theorized that in order to create a problem we didn't know we had, that the food manufacturers could then provide the solution for, they had to convince us that cooking real foods was drudge work and that modern women were supposed to be freeing themselves of the burden of cooking.
> 
> And that strongly reminds me of my mom's whole generation that were taught that breastfeeding is for uneducated, unliberated, lower class domestic women. You weren't liberated unless you bottle fed your babies.


Always that is the case to sell people on something they didn't know they needed. Create a problem and then all of a sudden offer a solution. If you tell someone X long enough - soon they will believe X!

I can't think of an industry that is NOT based off of that model - cosmetics, plastic surgery, clothing, cars...

Too true.


----------



## Caneel (Jun 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kamiro*
> 
> Thanks for clarifying this.
> 
> ...


Yes, you put into words what I was trying to rely, that direct access to the staples and teaching people how to cook healthy staples is a far better solution than having food stamp money going to big business via the purchase of packaged foods, at the expense of our children's health. The teaching component was the key to the discussion, about how basic skills such as know how to cook oatmeal have been lost because it is easier, quicker, cheaper (on the surface) for parents/caregivers to buy Fruit Loops.

WIC is an agricultural subsidy program designed to benefit the dairy farmers first and foremost.


----------



## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *journeymom*
> 
> Meemee's comment about Wonder Bread reminded me of what another foodie author said (maybe it was Michael Pollan again) about home cooking. He theorized that in order to create a problem we didn't know we had, that the food manufacturers could then provide the solution for, they had to convince us that cooking real foods was drudge work and that modern women were supposed to be freeing themselves of the burden of cooking.
> 
> And that strongly reminds me of my mom's whole generation that were taught that breastfeeding is for uneducated, unliberated, lower class domestic women. You weren't liberated unless you bottle fed your babies.


ITA. Marketing.

*And culture*. You (the universal you, not anyone specific)

You drive to work,

you take the elevator,

you eat fast food for lunch,

you go out to a restaurant friday and saturday night,

you both work late and by the time you pick up kids, get homework done... there is limited time to make meals from scratch,

the sugar/soda/processed food companies have billions of marketing dollars.

Any one of those things can be a mild hurdle, but all together it is a bomb. But how can you change it?

You have to totally redo all the streets in all the cities in the whole country to install proper bike lanes. And then train the drivers to actually look for bikers. And then install shopping centers and work places closer to home, because you can walk or bike 5 kilometers to work, but you can't walk or bike 100.

You put up signs on the elevators that they are for people with wheelchairs or baby carriages. (Don't laugh, it works here, but its in the culture)

You pay so much in taxes that eating out for lunch every day would cost way too much so 95% of the time people would pack a lunch. I have to pack 4 lunch boxes for my 2 kids every day, I can very easily pack one more for myself. Plus everyone else at work is bringing their lunch box, so we all eat together, so the social enviornment is covered. The bigger companies provide lunch, which is freshly made each day, and mostly healthy. But then again, we eat dark brown bread with a thin slice of cheese, beef or vegetable, with carrots, cucumbers and celery on the side. Or bell peppers. Or almonds.... When the kids of NYC were fed our lunches, the kids said they thought it was a terrible shame that our kids had to suffer through that lunch every day in school. But that's what our kids are used to, so they like it.

Friday and saturday night - again, large taxes and dinner means 4 hours, not a rush, so this would only be on a very special occasion. Normally you go to your friends house, and they cook. Or they come to you, and you cook.

You have a 37.5 hour work week - that really means 37.5 hours, not 45 or 55 or 65 hours. And since everyone else in the office is working this way, you actually would be a problem working 55 hours. Work efficiency after 40 hours is actually proven to go downhill, one is too tired to work as fast and clear. There is time to make food from scratch. And you almost have too, because you can't buy a ton of preprocessed foods. There is a huge tax on sugar, butter, soda, candy, chocolate, junk food. And laws about foods. Cheerios in the store is allowed to be sold in the cereal department, Lucky Charms and Cocopuffs have to be sold in the unhealthy, sugared section. And it is illegal to write "a nutritious part of your day" or "100% of your vitamins" or some other bs, on those Cocopuffs, because they are not a cereal, they are junk food. Sure, you can still buy them, but then you know what you are buying.

I just don't see it happening. It is going to take more than an ad campaign to change a whole culture. And a whole culture maybe should not be changed, because then you throw out the baby with the bath water. What about the positives? What about being able to find 10 really good ethnic restaurants to chose from in a 10 mile radius? Anywhere in NYC that would happen, and it could never happen here. You wouldn't get more than 1. I could list a million other reasons, but I think I've made my point.


----------



## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

It is the entire food industry that needs to be curtailed, not just those receiving assistance. And maybe we should alter the work day, as well. Seven hour days, instead of eight, to give people time to make dinner at night. Sugary cereals would be illegal, and therefore unavailable, and sugary buns in fast food places would be outlawed as well. That's what I'm talking about. Lucky Charms would *have to* change, or be in violation of a law. All cereal companies would face the same restriction at the same time, so there's not the option of one company losing business to others. We should be trying to get such laws passed. Denmark, I think, already has trans fats illegal. It *is* being done elsewhere.

About people in apartments growing their own food, there was a post that seemed to imply that each person was supposed to grow his/her own food. That would be difficult in certain circumstances. But, perhaps, that is not what was meant.


----------



## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

Sorry, Kamiro, I quoted you when I asked about people in apartments growing their own food. What I quoted wasn't what I was referring to!! I will see if I can find what I intended to reference. My apologies for the confusion!

Edited to add -- I can't find it. Oh, well. Maybe I read it somewhere else. My phone kicks me out at times and plays other funny games with me.

I would be interested in a thread about container gardening, as well as using worms for composting. Want to start one?


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

The other thing is paying people a living wage so they don't have to work multiple jobs. I am a bleeding heart liberal and I'm a big fan of all these suggestions, but I have to say that they sound a bit out of reach with our current political climate. I'm more worried about services being cut and people having even more trouble making ends meet and getting good healthy meals together. I feel really awful that kids have to suffer for the problems in our country.

Really, when I started this thread I was thinking about one specific person who has no limits on food for her kids and is a nurse so has some education. I do think that in some cases (like that one) it is just lazy parenting, but I also agree that for most people it's probably people trying to do the best they can in a bad situation and things turning out badly due to the bad situation more than anything else. Or else genetics or medical issues or "baby fat" (in quotation marks because they are bigger kids and not literal babies) that kids will outgrow and people making assumptions.


----------



## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

Want to talk about the obese nutritionist giving out advice on eating healthy? Sometimes those who work in healthcare are worse than the average person, because they have a fatalistic attitude about health, in general.


----------



## kmeyrick (Aug 30, 2006)

Well, my son is only 17 months but it's already getting hard to stop people from feeding him junk food when they're watching him, if only for half an hour. But as for obesity itself, people in the good old days didn't eat as well as you'd think. What I do think makes a difference is the ability to exercise. Our work is less physical, and we have to go out of our way to exercise. I work in a neighborhood where parents limit the time their children play outside quite a bit. Why? Bullets fly easily around the area. It simply isn't safe. This is the extreme end of things, obviously, but it's an example of why kids aren't roaming the fields, playing until sundown. It's not safe anymore, but it's hard to come up with a replacement.


----------



## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> It is the entire food industry that needs to be curtailed, not just those receiving assistance. And maybe we should alter the work day, as well. Seven hour days, instead of eight, to give people time to make dinner at night. Sugary cereals would be illegal, and therefore unavailable, and sugary buns in fast food places would be outlawed as well. That's what I'm talking about. Lucky Charms would *have to* change, or be in violation of a law. All cereal companies would face the same restriction at the same time, so there's not the option of one company losing business to others. We should be trying to get such laws passed. Denmark, I think, already has trans fats illegal. It *is* being done elsewhere.


It doesn't even have to be this complex. If we just stopped giving government subsidies to large scale industrial farms that use unsustainable processes, the whole food system would shift. High fructose corn syrup wouldn't be cheap anymore, and there would no longer be an incentive to put it in everything we eat.


----------



## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CI Mama*
> 
> It doesn't even have to be this complex. If we just stopped giving government subsidies to large scale industrial farms that use unsustainable processes, the whole food system would shift. High fructose corn syrup wouldn't be cheap anymore, and there would no longer be an incentive to put it in everything we eat.


gosh how do we make that happen? after all this is the govt that signed the monsanto bill.

corn industry has i think the biggest lobbying group.

i keep wondering how the change is going to come. and get disheartened. and then i hear Tim deChristopher (climate change and not food or obesity - but the principal is the same). and hear how small scale movements are so important. http://billmoyers.com/segment/why-tim-dechristopher-went-to-prison-for-his-protest/

reminds me of how i need to get politically involved in the best way i can.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> Want to talk about the obese nutritionist giving out advice on eating healthy?


I've received really good advice about diet from obese people, and really appalling advice about diet from skinny people (and bad advice from obese people, good advice from skinny people, etc.). What someone weighs - or even what they eat - isn't a good indicator of what they know about food.


----------



## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> if you noticed I had quoted another poster - regardless I read what she posted and I still don't get it- how you tell the Dr not to say anything??
> 
> But if the only problem the doc sees is that the child is overweight, then in my opinion any communication regarding that needs to go from the doc to the parent and then to the child if the parent sees it as an actual problem. A child not fitting into a category concerning their BMI may not be a real problem.


Simmer down... I just wanted dalia to know that I noticed her child is relatively young. It really wasn't anything against you.


----------



## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kamiro*
> 
> By stating the above I am NOT ADVOCATING TAKING AWAY FOOD STAMPS. I am unsure why people are so quick to assume this as it is a completely unrelated conclusion being drawn from the above observation.


Sorry, that was me jumping on your comment about foodstamps, i should have read your comment more carefully....

I agree with the others about the role of the food industry, complete with its use of pesticides, gmo crops, maltreatment of animals (the idea of injecting a healthy animal with antibiotics daily as a preventative measure disgusts me, as much for the poor animal, as for the meat filled with antibiotics that is put on the supermarket shelves), the mass overuse of grains that are so nutiritonally bereft that they must be supplemented with nutrients, that arent well assimilated by the body, the mercury in our fish, the use of unhealthy oils and sugars in almost every product you find, the over use of vegetable oils for cooking which turns them into transfats, and so on and so on.

Going shopping in a traditional supermarket is a hard working job of elimination after elimination, because most of the products are not healthy. Half the time i buy things thinking to myself-whats the harm in a little bpa? whats the harm in a small amount of gmo corn in those cheerios? Whats the harm in the small dose of antibiotics on that steak or chicken-my kids are hungry!

We pay a price for the junk we consume, and i dont mean junk food like articifically colored candy, i am talking about what is considered healthy food.

Of course there will be a consequence. Diabetes and obesity are just the tip of the iceberg. (adhd and autism are not far behind)


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Today on NPR, a story about GMO wheat mysteriously showing up on a farm in Oregon.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2013/05/30/187103955/gmo-wheat-found-in-oregon-field-howd-it-get-there?ft=3&f=1001&sc=nl&cc=nh-20130530

I don't feel qualified to say that GMO crops are direct causes of diabetes, obesity, ADHD, autism or anything else. I think all of those diseases have very complex origins, and I don't think enough research has been done to assess the full impact of GMO crops.

However, I'm also skeptical of the USDA claims that GMO crops pose no risk to public health. How can they know that?


----------



## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I've received really good advice about diet from obese people, and really appalling advice about diet from skinny people (and bad advice from obese people, good advice from skinny people, etc.). What someone weighs - or even what they eat - isn't a good indicator of what they know about food.


Yes. This is my husband's best friend. Well, he doesn't give diet advice per se, but he and used to loudly boast about being a meat and potatoes man who doesn't eat rabbit food, shakes his head at vegetarians. He's a skinny, skinny man. He's 45 y.o. now, still skinny, and has stage 1 hypertension, approaching stage 2.

Thankfully he and his wife are changing their tune. His wife ended up in the hospital a couple times getting gallstones and her gall bladder removed. They're making a big effort to eat more fruit and veggies, etc.; even got an organic produce box delivery.

This is the way they were raised. Dh's friend isn't obese, but there's the dangerous hypertension. Were his parents neglectful? I'm reticent to say so.


----------



## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

well to throw in the spanner disease is not a good indicator every single time at what is going on in the family. i think its a doctor's duty to find out what's going on, instead of making any judgement call.

friend is healthy. athlete cross country runner and races bikes. runs everyday rain or shine. hypertension. genetics.

i have quite a few very very healthy friends (meaning healthy life styles - food and exercise because they are sports people). they grew up eating well. by their late 40s early 50s had a bunch of health issues. genetics.

in fact in some families that i know back east - all had typical childhood. some stayed rail road thin. could never put on weight. others were obese. no difference in food. all as they grew older had some sort of health issue - genetics.

and my super obese friend who grew up with health issues in childhood before she became obese - today inspite of all her health issues growing up, is better off without hypertension, diabetes, than many of her same age non obese friends. obese friend eats much better and does much more for herself than anyone else i know.

BUT... we are talking about children. most peds. go off the BMI chart rather than looking at the family and their genetic history.

with children i find, most kids weightwise usually - not always - look like their parents (i am talking about 4th and 5th graders).


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

The conventional food grown nowadays is much less nutritious than what was grown a generation or two ago.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

I have been given advice by overweight people, telling what I "needed" to change, when my weight and health were both good. Sorry, but I'm biased by those experiences.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

about conventional food yes absolutely. but i want to go as far as saying - there is no organic food on this continent. true 100% organic. the water system, drainoffs, etc.

but we have to do with what we have. the lack of nutrition is even more reason to eat well. for many like me it has to be a combination of conventional and organic. in fact since i have been volunteering and working with food so much - mostly food access that i am tending to not go the extra mile for organic. i am constantly surrounded by people who dont have access to organic food and i feel terribly guilty that i am privileged to some when they arent.

plus i also feel we really hardly know anything about nutrition. nutrition is at the place where medicine was when michaelangelo was studying and drawing muscles from cadavers. with new research about bacteria and absorption - i have come to the conclusion i have to do the best i can with what i have. i am not completely convinced a 100% for my family that organic is the best way to go. but that's me and my issue. but its based on really we have very little idea of what exactly is going on.

i am sorry about your experience pek. i guess those kind of people live in every aspect of life. my experience is opposite of yours. i get the - dont do what i have done. its so hard to break. dont get into this mess. look at me as an example and dont become me.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I doubt there is any one single cause of childhood obesity, especially in the US.  Lots of things contribute to it, and its going to be a different set of circumstances for each family. Or even for each person in the family.

I see this really clearly in our family. DH and I are, admittedly, overweight. Healthy, but overweight. I admit we eat too much, though its too much of generally very healthy food (I cook, we buy organic, rarely buy processed anything... that general approach). My DD is significantly underweight -- so much so that our pediatrician is really worried about her. But DS is significantly overweight. But for just him I can identify the following contributing factors:

1. He has fructose mal-absorbtion so cannot eat most fruits and many veggies. I can't tell him to eat an apple for snack - he would be sick for the rest of the day. So he eats far more carb- and protein-heavy snacks and meals that he should from a weight management standpoint.

2. I'm not home during the day so he definitely snacks too much when I'm not there. But I need food in the house because DD really needs to snack all day. Its not realistic for me to expect DS not to eat when DD is doing so. Even if I were there to supervise snacking I'm not sure it would be in my parenting philosophy to dictate what he could and couldn't eat -- that would be a struggle to figure out.

3. He's 13, so he buys things at school (more than he should) and at the store on the way home from school. I suppose I could not give him an allowance but that raises other issues.

4. We eat too much for dinner (well, everyone except DD). We're working on portion control but its a slow process.

5. He struggles with anxiety and depression. Trying to deal with weight before getting those things more controlled would be futile. Not to mention a "pick your battles" thing. And the medication he takes also cause some weight gain. Sure I could eliminate the meds, but the consequences for doing so could be too horrible to imagine (as in he might kill himself awful).

6. He doesn't go "out to play" in the afternoons -- partly because he's watching his little sister, partly because there isn't anyone his age to play with, partly because I'm not there to nag him to do so.

7. He recently stopped doing karate and we haven't found a sport he's interested in that we can get him to classes to replace it.

8. Both sides of the family are generally overweight, so there is some genetic factors here I'm sure.

9. The school has recently limited PE to save money so he gets less exercise at school.

And I'm lucky in that we are financially comfortable, live in an area with ready access to great produce and seafood, and we cook.

So, am I being neglectful? Maybe. But if there are so many contributing factors that I can identify for my child, then I would expect at least that much to be true for other families as well. Some things the parents can control, some they can't. Some things they could change but the consequences would be too severe and the entire family might be worse off. Some things that we as a society could change if we wanted to but don't seem to have the political will. Or we (as a society) won't spend the money on. For example, my DD's elementary school has no PE at all due to budget cuts and the continuing race for better test scores. We (general we) could fix that if we wanted to, but so far we haven't made it a priority.

It would be nice if there were a simple, single answer to the question. But there isn't. And given that there isn't, it seems really wrong to judge a family unless you know all of the circumstances surrounding the issue with that particular child at that particular time.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> nutrition is at the place where medicine was when michaelangelo was studying and drawing muscles from cadavers.


I like this analogy!


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

EvanandAnna's mom your post made me cry. i have no clue why. its soo many things coming together. primarily its the overeating part of it. the book the end of overeating shows us what an epidemic it is in our country.

seriously i have never seen anyone here eat the amount they are supposed to. one day i ate a fully balanced diet with the right serving size. YIKES!!!! it was soooo little. (i am a little person).

this whole situation is so so so complicated.

and every single moment all of us are being bombarded to consume. consume. consume. with smells and flavors... at least i know i can resist some. those who dont know... why should they resist.

yet we have the cheapest food here. i once learnt (am i repeating myself here - sorry) the real cost of food (compared to general worldwide prices) would be like paying for organic food.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Portion sizes are a huge part of it. I've been trying to be more conscious of how much we eat, and it's amazing how big the servings are. I know someone who cooks two pounds of meat for dinner, for a family of five, and they eat it all. We eat a lot less than that, and I think it's still too much. Other parts of the meal are similarly lopsided. I honestly don't think it matters if my "one serving" of undressed field greens is three cups (even thought that's not one serving)...but what about when it's rice, or pasta, or cheese, or bread...or even avocadoes, potatoes, or other higher calorie food? Some of those things have a decent nutritional punch, but they also have a lot of calories, and enormous servings are going to cause problems.

I know that, for me, inactivity is a big part of it, though. I don't eat five slices of large pizza, or two burgers, plus fries, anymore. I did that from my late teens until my mid-to-late 20s (except when I was pregnant). My portions are much more reasonable. However, I'm also not walking the nine blocks to work from the bus stop, and back again each night. I have a vehicle, so I'm not walking a km or mile to the grocery store several times per week. I'm not walking the hill to my mom's (ds2 was always awful around traffic, and I got paranoid about busy streets). There's too much noise and commotion around here most of the time, so I rarely put on music and dance, just for the heck of it. Add in some emotional eating, and...boom.


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Here's an interesting article on the subject of obesity and where it comes from:

http://www.aeonmagazine.com/being-human/david-berreby-obesity-era/

It's long, but worth a read. It describes a lot of different research being done that points to many different causes for obesity. The takeaway for me is that this isn't a simple issue that can be traced to one cause. It's a manifestation of a lot of different factors converging. The author concludes that we might need to blame capitalism itself for the obesity epidemic. And that's food for thought...


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

I saw this TEDx video and it reminded me of this thread

http://www.upworthy.com/she-had-a-pretty-woman-moment-at-a-dress-shop-but-her-response-is-way-better-than-julia-roberts?c=ufb1


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I'm glad I found this thread. This topic is so interesting to me because for the past several months, I've been totally reshaping how I look at food, as well as increasing the portion of my day that I spend physically active, and one thing that's crystal clear to me is that pointing fingers of blame at anyone -- parents, society, even myself -- is not productive at all, whereas *awareness* is the absolute key to getting from where I am to where I need to be. Since last November, I've lost at least 70 lbs, possibly more, by simply, gradually, making more and more lifestyle changes that I like and that I feel comfortable living with *for the rest of my life* -- not just as a temporary way to lose the weight, and then gain it all back, plus more, a year later because I'd made changes I couldn't sustain over the long haul (I've been down that road before and I'm just too old and wise to be willing to do it again).

I just recently finished reading Fat land : how Americans became the fattest people in the world by Greg Critser, and it has opened my eyes to some areas where my thinking was totally off. For example, I was worried over my teen daughter's obsession with her weight, and her desire for a flat belly, and I'd previously discouraged her from counting calories. While I'm not saying her focus on the TV models is exactly healthy, I've realized that it's also not unhealthy for her to be concerned about getting fat when she sees her dad and me, as well as other family members -- especially now that she's learned about how thin I was as a child.

In Fat Land, Critser explains how the media's hyperfocus on extremely rare teen eating disorders like bulimia and anorexia (rare in comparison to the incidence of obesity) have got many of us worried that if we encourage healthier eating habits and exercise, we'll drive our girls to starve themselves. I've realized that it's actually healthy for dd to learn everything she can about what she's putting into her mouth -- including, but not limited to, information on calories.

So today when she showed me a diet she found on the Internet that she wanted to follow, I took a good look at it and told her it looked really healthy. It advocates things like drinking water instead of sugary drinks, and eating according to the food pyramid. She's made herself a chart where she checks it off when she's had a serving of fruit, vegetables, grain, protein, dairy, and so on. She told me that it's true that she's within her weight for height recommendations -- but that she could also weigh less and still be within those recommendations. I said that's true, and that as long as she's getting all the nutrition she needs, I have no problem with her losing a few pounds, even though I also think she's fine as she is.

I've also realized that "counting calories" is sometimes helpful for me -- for example, when I want to indulge in a rich snack. A while back, dh brought home a Marie Calendar pecan pie, and I really wanted some but not too much. So I read the info and saw that one serving -- one-eighth of the pie -- was just under 500 calories. Since I really didn't want more than a quarter of my food for the day to be pie, I cut that serving in half, and really enjoyed a few mornings of savoring a sliver of pecan pie with my morning coffee. So I'm not going to discourage her from reading those labels any more. Instead, I'm going to encourage her to read *all* the information, and also to learn what it all means. Awareness is key.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mammal_mama*  I've realized that it's actually healthy for dd to learn everything she can about what she's putting into her mouth -- including, but not limited to, information on calories...
> 
> ...So I'm not going to discourage her from reading those labels any more. Instead, I'm going to encourage her to read *all* the information, and also to learn what it all means. Awareness is key.


I always felt that being a little over weight as a teenager and consequently being more aware of nutrition and healthful life styles gave me an edge later on. The thin kids who never gave it a thought seemed to gain more weight, either in college (the freshmen 15) or right after college. My weight has been up and down a bit over the years, reflecting changes in my life style, but it's never done anything drastic.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Also, while moving away from blaming, I do see a need for increased awareness of societal factors that make it very easy for certain vulnerable groups to put on lots of weight, and make it hard for them to return to a healthy weight.

One thing Critser does in Fatland is outline the situation for many of our nation's poorest -- especially immigrant groups. He explains how when mothers are malnourished during pregnancy, those babies are more likely to be born with a coping mechanism wherein they're predisposed to convert sugar to fat. He also explains how groups who've survived many generations in environments where it's difficult to get enough calories tend to have metabolisms that favor weight gain. Which works out great when they are still in those environments -- but when those people come into an environment like the U.S. where we have an overabundance of cheap, empty calories and fats, it can be a real disaster.

How can anyone label these parents as neglectful, when in many cases they've sacrificed literally everything, and bravely come to a whole new place where they're often working two and three jobs to make ends meet? In their case, the "light at the end of the tunnel" is not even a better life for themselves, but a hope that their children can have a real life.

As well as metabolisms not being able to adjust, there are also habits and ideals that were great coping mechanisms in the previous environment -- such as the idea that it's good to carry some extra weight, and the idea that it's good to conserve energy and rest whenever you can. It wasn't so long ago in our own history that a fat child was a child who was going to survive childhood, and that a day's work provided all the exercise anyone needed.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mammal_mama*
> 
> So today when she showed me a diet she found on the Internet that she wanted to follow, I took a good look at it and told her it looked really healthy. It advocates things like drinking water instead of sugary drinks, and eating according to the food pyramid.


The food pyramid made me fat and sick. For me, there is no such thing as "healthy whole grains." Whole or not, they are just CARBS. The pyramid encourages very limited fat intake, which leave everyone feelings hungry, so they eat more carbs, which then mess with their blood sugar and energy levels, so they either eat more carbs or start living on caffeine, or a combo.

And it just isn't me. When the food advice changed in this country away from fat and toward carbs, obesity rates started going up, and they haven't stopped raising. Our food pyramid was just a big science experiment, with no control group, and we were lab rats. But when it makes us fat (as it will!) then we are told it is our fault.

This is a great link. If you scroll down the page, there is a video called "The food revolution." It's a speech made by a Swedish doctor at a Paleo conference. Very interesting stuff.

http://www.dietdoctor.com/lchf

How did your eating and energy levels go for the rest of the day when you ate pecan pie for breakfast? For most people, that would have been a set up for energy spikes and drops, and cravings for more simple carbs and caffeine (which would have caused more spikes and drops) to get through the day.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *4evermom*
> 
> I always felt that being a little over weight as a teenager and consequently being more aware of nutrition and healthful life styles gave me an edge later on. The thin kids who never gave it a thought seemed to gain more weight, either in college (the freshmen 15) or right after college. My weight has been up and down a bit over the years, reflecting changes in my life style, but it's never done anything drastic.


What a great point! I was one of those kids, and teens, who never seemed to put on weight while I was still growing, and thought I would never have to worry about my weight. I formed habits that were totally unsustainable in my adult life, and that caused me to go from a weight of 130 or 135 lbs. (at a height of just under 5'10") when I graduated high school, to a weight of 294 lbs. last November at age 48.

It looks like I'll be back to a healthy weight sometime around the beginning of next year, a few months before my 50th birthday -- and thankfully, I'm now living quite happily within the new way of life that I've created, which is mainly composed of mindful eating, yoga, hula hooping, and enjoying being active outdoors with my girls.

Thinking about it (weight) *is* actually quite a good idea...as a parent, my role is just encouraging my dd's to think about all the important aspects of nutrition, and not just calories.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> The food pyramid made me fat and sick. For me, there is no such thing as "healthy whole grains." Whole or not, they are just CARBS. The pyramid encourages very limited fat intake, which leave everyone feelings hungry, so they eat more carbs, which then mess with their blood sugar and energy levels, so they either eat more carbs or start living on caffeine, or a combo.
> 
> ...


That's a good point about the "healthy whole grains" thing. I've honestly found that it's better for me to eat a lot less of the grains and starches, and focus more on proteins and fresh fruits and vegetables. I will have to check out that link.

About the pecan pie -- I ate it with my morning coffee, which I forgot to mention I usually have with a lot of hot milk mixed in, so I did get some protein to help balance out all that sugar. I actually usually get my full two cups of milk each morning with my two mugs of coffee. I think I also ate a carrot with the pie on at least a couple of those mornings. My energy levels seemed pretty normal during that time.

The other day, dh baked a great big huge cinnamon roll and iced it. The last couple of mornings, I've cut off a tiny piece of the roll to eat with my milk and coffee. I just figure that if I'm craving something so sweet, starchy, and fattening, it's better to have it in the morning than at night. And my energy levels have still been great. I hooped for 30 minutes, 45 minutes or so after my sugary breakfast, and did a 40 minute yoga workout this afternoon. I had a homemade bean, cheese, and onion burrito for lunch. I'm getting ready to cut up a watermelon now for us to snack on before going swimming for a couple of hours.

About the swimming, I used to feel secretly relieved when the pool closed for the summer -- but now I realize that this time, I'm going to miss it as much as the girls do. I'm resolving now to find a variety of ways to get outdoors and be just as active in the afternoons this fall.


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## PrimordialMind (May 4, 2013)

I just found this thread, so i'm jumping in a little late. I haven't read all the comments but i have read most of them. I've noticed one common theme of "eating disorders"--i personally see this as being a huge factor in the obesity epidemic. A lot of people don't seem to understand eating disorders, though, and i think this is because they are typically more emotionally-based than anything else and our emotional intelligence as a society is pretty darn low.

Eating disorders seem to primarily come about because food is equated with love. Maybe the person hasn't recieved healthy love so they look to food for that sense of being loved--that warm, happy, sensual, blissful feeling that can come about from various sources, one of which is food. When people do not feel loved and don't feel adequate enough to receive enough of it, food is an easy, safe and reliable option for that very much needed feeling. Food will not reject you, call you names, stomp on your feelings or traumatize you.

I was anorexic as a teenager and no one truly understood how to help me. I saw a nutritionist who gave me meal plans, but i knew how and what i should eat, that wasnt the issue at all. I was obsessed with nutrition due to the eating disorder so i understood what would be good for me to eat and how much. The problem was psychological, rooted in the very real experience of a lack of love. This sense of lack made me believe i didnt deserve love and since food creates a loving feeling i wouldn't allow myself to eat much at all. I saw different therapists but they also didn't understand that fundamental root issue of how nourishing ourselves is a loving act, so if you don't love yourself or don't believe you deserve love any food issues you may have needs to address those emotional beliefs. I ended up having to stay in the hospital for a month because my weight was so extremely low it was making my heart pump at a dangerously low rate. I was forced to lie in bed and take in a high number of calories, mostly from nutritional supplements. During that month, i started to feel loved because that perceived need to keep myself from eating food was silenced. I was able to enjoy food for the first time in a long time. So while the doctors felt it was good enough just to make sure my body was strong, i knew that i needed to allow myself to accept the love that comes from nourishing myself. Once i left the hospital, it was very difficult to stick with eating normal and i had my ups and downs. The reality was i didnt have the emotional support and that is something i have struggled with ever since. I am at a normal weight now, have been for years, but the only way it came about was through learning to love myself and allow myself to be loved.

So when it comes to obesity, it seems that these people also feel a sense of lack, an emotional hole that they don't know how to fill. Maybe this is not the case with every obese person, but i would bet that the majority are that way due to emotional reasons. They look to food to fill that void and which foods are naturally better at helping us feel warm and satiated? Simple sugars, white flour, candy, chocolate, ice cream, cookies, crackers, donuts, etc. All the foods that make us fat, make us crave more of it after we eat it, make us lethargic and less likely to want to exercise. Its an endless cycle. If a person felt loved from eating broccoli they probably wouldnt be overweight but broccoli simply doesnt create that warm and fuzzy feeling like the other foods i mention do. So while it wouldnt hurt for people to be more educated about nutrition, the emotional factor is a huge hurdle that i dont see getting enough emphasis, probably due to a lack of awareness.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

PM... Wow. I agree with you 1000% percent and couldn't have said it better. You just articulated how I have felt for thirty years! :'-)

Just the other day I broke down at my midwife's office because she told me I shouldn't drink stevia sweetened sodas during my pregnancy (because they create sugar cravings). I am dealing with gestational diabetes and have finally been feeling like I've started to eat "normally" and she was telling me I had a sugar addiction. I was devasted. She didn't understand why I was getting so upset and kept telling me to see a nutritionist. Like I don't know anything about nutrition! I could write a book, really.

After I left her office, I wondered why I got so upset and realized it was because I didn't feel acknowledged for how far I've come. Once again I was being told I am, "not good enough". I absolutely know that was not her intention. She just doesn't know. As you said, PM, most have no idea how to deal with eating disorders. We mostly have to go it alone.

Obesity is just a symptom. Sugar is a symptom. All manifestations of addiction are symptoms in a whole society of people who have somehow lost themselves. You can't "judge" someone into changing. Only compassion, love, and understanding can help.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *PrimordialMind* 

I just found this thread, so i'm jumping in a little late. I haven't read all the comments but i have read most of them. I've noticed one common theme of "eating disorders"--i personally see this as being a huge factor in the obesity epidemic.


> So when it comes to obesity, it seems that these people also feel a sense of lack, an emotional hole that they don't know how to fill. Maybe this is not the case with every obese person, but i would bet that the majority are that way due to emotional reasons.


While I agree that eating disorders are an issue, the rates of obesity in the US started going up when the dietary recommendations were changed. I therefore think that the recommendations are part of the problem -- we are told to eat food that doesn't work for MANY people, and then surrounded by food choices that don't work for anybody.

Our society is much more warm and fuzzy than most of the past -- for example in the 50s men were allowed to beat their wives and the handicapped had no rights. The notion that the primary cause of the ever increasing rates of obesity is an "emotional hole" doesn't jive for me.

There is NO agreement about what a "healthy" diet is. I completely disagree with the FDA's recommendations, because they made me fat and sick. Lots of people disagree that the way I eat is healthy because I eat meat.

Yesterday I was at the book store looking for a new Paleo cookbook. I was in a section of cookbooks based on different diets, and it was insane how many different ways of eating some segment considers healthy -- vegetarian, vegan, raw, juicing, low fat, low carb, gluten free, sugar free, dairy free; diets to reduce inflammation, protect against cancer, have a flat belly, bulk up muscles, reduce calories and on and on and on.

These diets conflict with each other. Its really no wonder people have trouble with their weight and can't figure out what to do.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

PM and dalia, you are both so right! While nutritional knowledge is essential, knowledge alone can't get us or keep us on a healthy path. We are a whole person -- body, mind, emotions, and spirit -- and without getting at the root reasons for our unhealthy approaches to food, trying to apply the knowledge is like trying to row a boat upstream -- like fighting against ourselves every step of the way.

Dd1 doesn't understand why I say my yoga helps me get connected to my center, and that's what is helping me lose weight. She just thinks I'm burning more calories and eating less, and that's why the weight is coming off -- which is true on the surface -- but the reason why this is no longer a struggle for me is because of my growing sense that *I,* just as I am, just where I am, without any more food, money, friends, or what-have-you, am already fully adequate, fully loved, and fully connected to everything I need.

I feel like I'm being fed while I'm just sitting very still and breathing. This is totally different from in the past when my "superego" mind would be trying to force me to limit my intake of food while my "child" mind was screaming and rolling on the floor because of a total sense of being deprived of things I needed.

I feel like all the different parts of me are on the same page -- unified -- and that is why I feel such a strong assurance that I won't be yo-yoing back into a fat person several months from now.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 


> A while back, dh brought home a Marie Calendar pecan pie, and I really wanted some but not too much.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mammal_mama*
> 
> The other day, dh baked a great big huge cinnamon roll and iced it. The last couple of mornings, I've cut off a tiny piece of the roll to eat with my milk and coffee. I just figure that if I'm craving something so sweet, starchy, and fattening, it's better to have it in the morning than at night.


Your husband is sabotaging you. He is making sure that you have foods around you that make it more difficult for you to lose weight AND KEEP IT OFF.

Throw the food away, and tell him to bring you flowers. He's being a jerk, and you aren't seeing it for what it is. He is keeping you in a state of cravings, but you can put an end to it.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> Your husband is sabotaging you. He is making sure that you have foods around you that make it more difficult for you to lose weight AND KEEP IT OFF.
> 
> Throw the food away, and tell him to bring you flowers. He's being a jerk, and you aren't seeing it for what it is. He is keeping you in a state of cravings, but you can put an end to it.


The world is full of cinnamon rolls and pecan pie. For many people, the challenge is not avoidance, it's moderation. I know how to quit sugar for a year and to binge on it for a year. What I struggle with is feeling like its "okay" to have a sliver of pie or a piece of a cinnamon roll. But it is okay. It's okay!!

I don't think your husband is a jerk. He is human and has a different experience. Why should he be restricted? It doesn't seem like he's being over the top, but really, there's no way to know much about him and to make a judgement call from one post. Sounds to me like you are doing great.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dalia*
> 
> The world is full of cinnamon rolls and pecan pie. For many people, the challenge is not avoidance, it's moderation. I know how to quit sugar for a year and to binge on it for a year. What I struggle with is feeling like its "okay" to have a sliver of pie or a piece of a cinnamon roll. But it is okay. It's okay!!
> 
> I don't think your husband is a jerk. He is human and has a different experience. Why should he be restricted? It doesn't seem like he's being over the top, but really, there's no way to know much about him and to make a judgement call from one post. Sounds to me like you are doing great.


I agree. I suppose the husband *could* be sabotaging, but there's no way to know from one pie "a while back" and one cinnamon roll "the other day." That could mean that 6 months ago be brought the pie home and last week he made the cinnamon roll. Doesn't sound like sabotage to me, but rather being incredibly supportive most of the time and then very occasionally indulging. And the OP seems to be doing a great job figuring out how to indulge in a reasonable manner, and how to succeed even when confronted by tempting foods.

If my partner were to adopt a strict diet, I would support him almost all the time, but I wouldn't agree to never, ever have tempting foods around ever again. Birthdays happen, holidays happen -- I hope I wouldn't be labeled a "jerk" for making the very occasional sweet.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dalia*
> 
> The world is full of cinnamon rolls and pecan pie.


In her examples of when she uses calorie counting to help eat in moderation, she doesn't mention anything fun or social that she has chosen to do. It isn't her child's birthday cake, or a special outing with her women friends. It isn't indulging in a regional specialty while on a vacation somewhere exciting. She is eating food that is fundamentally bad both for her health and for weight maintenance alone in her kitchen, because her husband left the food around.

This is a woman who was morbidly obese, and while the world is full of cinnamon rolls and pecan pie, her home doesn't need to be.

Nothing in the posts said anything about the husband being supportive. The only mention of him is bringing in foods that cause cravings, and that he is overweight. May be he is uncomfortable with her weight loss because he feels it puts pressure to deal with his own unhealthy eating.

(BTW, I used to be morbidly obese, I lost a bunch of weight, and then regained it, as almost everyone who loses weight does. And I've learned that I cannot have that crap in my house. If my DH didn't get that, I end the marriage over it. This is a life and death issue -- fat kills. I don't demand that any one in my family limit their eating in any way -- but they have to get treats when they are out or in small sizes and not leave them around, which honestly, it a heck of a lot healthier for everyone.)

More than a 1/3 of American adults are obese, and another 1/3 are overweight. *Only about a 1/3 of the adult population of the US is in their healthy weight range.* Since 2/3 of the population has trouble with their weight, you would think we could get over blaming them or saying they have holes in them and get serious about the fact that our culture is seriously off. The American way of eating, with cinnamon rolls and pecan pie everywhere, is a killer.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dalia*
> 
> The world is full of cinnamon rolls and pecan pie. For many people, the challenge is not avoidance, it's moderation. I know how to quit sugar for a year and to binge on it for a year. What I struggle with is feeling like its "okay" to have a sliver of pie or a piece of a cinnamon roll. But it is okay. It's okay!!
> 
> I don't think your husband is a jerk. He is human and has a different experience. Why should he be restricted? It doesn't seem like he's being over the top, but really, there's no way to know much about him and to make a judgement call from one post. Sounds to me like you are doing great.


I couldn't have said it better myself.

Yes, my husband and I are both obese. I feel like my perspective on food has changed radically and his is changing more gradually, so I'm not going to claim that he has totally healthy reasons for purchasing a pecan pie or baking a cinnamon roll, but I honestly don't see it as an attempt to sabotage me, or as a reason to end the marriage.

Dh did just recently get fully on-board with me regarding my insistence that we needed to quit bringing pop into the house, and there may very well come a time when we won't bring any refined sugars, or foods made with refined sugars, into the house, either. Just as I have a couple of friends who reached a point where they decided they needed to give up caffeine, and I'm open to the possibility that at some point, I may decide it's time to give up my morning coffee, too. I'm just not there yet on either point.

At this time, I do find it more beneficial to go ahead and indulge my desire to eat something sweet -- but simply to exercise control over the time when I do this and the quantity that I eat. Whereas I used to feel like I needed a large quantity, I've discovered that enjoying a "sliver" with my morning coffee is now fully sufficient. And it's not every morning, either. Most mornings, I will have something like a carrot or apple with a serving of peanut butter, a salad with a little salmon or tuna for protein, or a small serving of leftovers from last night's dinner.

And actually, sitting down and eating an entire sweet red pepper is every bit as blissful to me as eating a cinnamon roll. We just can't always afford the peppers, which I guess brings us back to the aforementioned dilemma of people with less money often turning to starchy foods to fill their bellies cheaply, and this is definitely a reality that my own family is trying to navigate. One way is by always having a pan of cooked beans in the fridge -- at the moment, it's pinto beans, and dd2 and I love having these in burritos or sometimes just on their own or with rice.

Edited to add: I know that beans and tortillas and rice are "starchy foods," too -- I just see them as higher quality starchy foods than cinnamon rolls.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

Mammal-mama, you sound like you are doing great. I look at it like climbing stairs. Your ultimate goal is the top of the stairs, but you have to take one step at a time. If you try to jump to the top, or if someone tries to push you up, you will fall. One step at a time and you will get there.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Isn't leaving food that causes cravings pushing someone down? Isn't demanding the "food" budget be spent on SODA rather then healthy food pushing someone down?


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

I think the only one that can say whether she is being pushed up or down would be mammal-mama. She came on here to share her accomplishments, which are huge! Her experience is hers, and she appears to be doing great taking small steps. And really, we're here to discuss the whole of the problem in America, not to analyze any one person's experience. Either way it sounds to me like she is doing what works for her, which is awesome.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

FWIW, I doubt pecan pie would cause as much of a blood sugar spike as the next thing, being full of nuts. Better for you than a typical bowl of conventional cereal, IMO.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Truth be told, I am now starting to see how many of my own cooking and activity habits have been pushing both my loved ones and myself waaay down.

Rather than trying to analyze whether others are trying to push me down by being stuck in their own unhealthy habits, it makes more sense to me to recognize my own power to stay connected to the Truth that I am fully loved and fully worthy *just as I am* -- and my power to make my own personal choices while living within the reality that we are all in different places in our nutritional journeys.

The fact is, most obese, or otherwise dysfunctional, people are in close relationships with other obese or otherwise dysfunctional people.

I can see how it might be necessary to break out of a totally unsupportive relationship -- but I do see dh as very supportive in many important ways. Although he hasn't yet been able to find a form of exercise that he enjoys in the least, he does support me taking the time to do my yoga and hula hooping, and to get out to the pool and the park with the girls. He also buys me red peppers as often as he can.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

"Rather than trying to analyze whether others are trying to push me down by being stuck in their own unhealthy habits, it makes more sense to me to recognize my own power to stay connected to the Truth that I am fully loved and fully worthy just as I am -- and my power to make my own personal choices while living within the reality that we are all in different places in our nutritional journeys."

Wow. Preach it, girl!!!! This is truth.


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## PrimordialMind (May 4, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dalia*
> 
> PM... Wow. I agree with you 1000% percent and couldn't have said it better. You just articulated how I have felt for thirty years! :'-)
> 
> ...


You definitely can't judge someone into changing. The only real change i've made for myself has come about through love and understanding. All the attempts at force, ridicule, strictness just backfired. As it should, we are not machines, we are breathing, feeling, thinking humans. Thus, its important to honor the whole person, and not simply fixate on the parts we want to change. If there is something you don't like about yourself, don't be afraid to take a long, hard look at it and what could be causing it. When we look at ourselves with the innocent, loving eyes of a child, awarness increases, answers pop up and transformation happens.

I'm sorry your midwife made you feel bad about the stevia. Those sorts of conversations are why i typically ignore people's advice about food. Everyone has their own opinion and i understand nutrition so well, like yourself, that it only hurts, never helps.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> While I agree that eating disorders are an issue, the rates of obesity in the US started going up when the dietary recommendations were changed. I therefore think that the recommendations are part of the problem -- we are told to eat food that doesn't work for MANY people, and then surrounded by food choices that don't work for anybody.
> 
> ...


There are lots of theories as to why people are obese. I actually find the food pyramid to be a generally healthy way of eating. It doesnt tell people to eat exorbitant amounts of the food that typically cause weight issues (fats, oils and sweets use sparingly) so i'm not sure where you got that idea.

Also, you might want to check out the thread in TAO about people who say "well at least it isn't that..." because thats what you did in your second paragraph to me. Just because things were bad way back when doesnt change how miserable a lot of people are NOW. I see a lot of depressed and anxious people and a lot of these people don't have the emotional support that they need. Thus why wouldn't food be something they turn to to help soothe their pain? Are you not aware of how simple sugars affect the serotonin (the love chemical) levels in the brain?


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## PrimordialMind (May 4, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mammal_mama*
> 
> PM and dalia, you are both so right! While nutritional knowledge is essential, knowledge alone can't get us or keep us on a healthy path. We are a whole person -- body, mind, emotions, and spirit -- and without getting at the root reasons for our unhealthy approaches to food, trying to apply the knowledge is like trying to row a boat upstream -- like fighting against ourselves every step of the way.
> 
> ...


This comment is inspiring to me, thank you. I know what you mean about doing yoga to connect to your center, i do this, too







I also know what you mean about the "child mind" throwing tantrums. Its so important to nurture our inner child, i believe this is the key to healing the root of our addictions. That doesn't mean give in to every desire and plea, but to listen and honor one's very real feelings. I'm so happy you feel unified







That sounds really beautiful. You brought tears to my eyes.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> Your husband is sabotaging you. He is making sure that you have foods around you that make it more difficult for you to lose weight AND KEEP IT OFF.
> 
> Throw the food away, and tell him to bring you flowers. He's being a jerk, and you aren't seeing it for what it is. He is keeping you in a state of cravings, but you can put an end to it.


I understand that you believe not having the foods you crave around will help you lose weight. I get that. However, in the long run, that way of thinking and doing is flawed and often doesnt work. I grew up with a mother who was addicted to sugar, so addicted that she would sneak spoonfuls of white sugar in the middle of the night--she'd eat it right off the spoon. She was truly addicted. She tried all sorts of diets and there was many periods of time in which she made sure not to have any sugary foods in the house. But her weight yo-yoed. She would be strict with herself and then she'd reach a point where she couldn't handle it and then she'd start sneaking sugar...it was always downhill fron there. There was never any sense of moderation with her, it was always all or nothing, do or die. So when mammal mama and dalia suggest that having a little bit once in awhile is better than completely depriving oneself, they are aware of the fact that going down the middle of the road causes more success in the long run than skidding out-of-control on the sides of the road.

Food addictions are powerful and when someone is healing from them, depriving themselves often causes an emotional backlash that can easily spiral out-of-control. This is also why most diets don't work. They are forcing you to eat a certain way that your brain, body and emotions are not used to. It is a shock in more ways than one and of course there will be reactions to this.

Just now i commented on mama mammals' statement about the "child mind"--if you force yourself to ignore that part of yourself then there will be a backlash. You cant ignore your feelings, you need to understand them and integrate them in order to heal and be free.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

I'm obviously really out of sync with the thread so I'll bow out now. A few finally thoughts:

Quote:

Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 

it makes more sense to me to recognize my own power to stay connected to the Truth that I am fully loved and fully worthy *just as I am* -- and my power to make my own personal choices while living within the reality that we are all in different places in our nutritional journeys.

The fact is, most obese, or otherwise dysfunctional, people are in close relationships with other obese or otherwise dysfunctional people.

I can see how it might be necessary to break out of a totally unsupportive relationship --

I hope your journey continues to go well. I suspect few people actually need to end relationship over this, and I didn't mean to imply that they did. Rather, what I meant to advocate was being clear with our partners, setting boundaries, and speaking up for ourselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *PrimordialMind* 

There are lots of theories as to why people are obese. I actually find the food pyramid to be a generally healthy way of eating. It doesnt tell people to eat exorbitant amounts of the food that typically cause weight issues (fats, oils and sweets use sparingly) so i'm not sure where you got that idea.


> Also, you might want to check out the thread in TAO about people who say "well at least it isn't that..." because thats what you did in your second paragraph to me. Just because things were bad way back when doesnt change how miserable a lot of people are NOW. I see a lot of depressed and anxious people and a lot of these people don't have the emotional support that they need. Thus why wouldn't food be something they turn to to help soothe their pain? Are you not aware of how simple sugars affect the serotonin (the love chemical) levels in the brain?


There's no evidence that eating a diet high in fat causes someone to get fat. The scientific evidence shows the opposite -- a diet with 80% of calories from fat is a weight loss plan. On the other hand, a diet high in carbs (and the bottom of the food pyramid is carbs) is associated not just with weight gain, but with diabetes, arthritis, and heart disease. The food pyramid was designed by the FDA and is really good for agribusiness (pretty much everything at the bottom of the pyramid is now genetically modified -- this is about supporting Monsanto, not family farmers). Eating this way isn't good for anyone's health.

I'm very aware of how sugar, wheat, and milk effect brain chemistry. However, I don't think there are more depressed people lacking in support now than there were 30 years ago, when the obesity rates started taking off. I agree with you that food and emotions get wrapped up in ways that are very destructive for a segment of the population, but I disagree that it accounts for the rates of obesity. In the last 30 years, they rates have just climbed and climbed -- during good economies and in bad.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PrimordialMind*
> 
> I understand that you believe not having the foods you crave around will help you lose weight. I get that. However, in the long run, that way of thinking and doing is flawed and often doesnt work.


I don't have food cravings. I ended them by quitting wheat cold turkey. It really only took 3 days to get past the worst of it. It was like going through withdraw. Cravings are physiological, and whether or not the food is around doesn't impact them. We can crave foods that aren't there, or we can have the food right in front of us and not crave it.

I know that if I eat any wheat at all, I'll go straight back to that nasty cycle, and I'm done being an addict. Or course, so was Corry Monteith, so we'll see how it goes.

The notion that anyone with an addition to any food should just eat it in moderation makes as much sense to me as saying Corry should have done Heroin in moderation. It just doesn't work. For some people with some substances, there is no such thing as an OK amount, because any amount just makes them want more, which makes them want more.

The reason to not have munchie wheaty items in my home is that it would just be too easy to go back. Pretty much all the foods that really feed me take some level of preparation, but a cinnamon roll doesn't. I'm not avoiding cravings by not having food around. I avoid cravings by not eating the foods that I know cause me to have craving! Keeping certain foods out of my house just makes it easier for me to be thoughtful and intentional in my eating.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

Linda on the Move, I think if you have pinpointed what triggers your cravings that is awesome. I really believe people should find what works for them. Sounds like your problem is physiological. To be honest, I'm jealous. I wish there was a physical thing I could cut out to change my habits, but my habits come from emotion. It's a constant battle.

As for Heroine and food, as someone who was a drug addict I can offer this: the difference between drugs and food is you can't quit food cold turkey. You HAVE to eat. There are great benefits to eating but none to doing heroine. When I quit hard drugs (meth, coke and CRACK -yikes), I disappeared myself from all my druggie friends and moved to a different state. That was the only way. But I can't escape food, I just have to learn to change my relationship with it; to become "friends" with it. If I fight my cravings they become huge monsters. It's hard to explain, but eating a sliver of pie and not the whole pie is a HUGE accomplishment for someone like me. Maybe one day I will stop eating pie altogether, but doing that today would spell big trouble for me. The restriction would become part of the addiction. It's hard to explain.

For what it's worth, I do much better on a higher fat and protein, lower carb diet. I do AWFUL on a high carb diet. I think different people have different body chemistry depending on their heritage. But I don't cut anything out all together except maybe soda (maybe ill have a Mexican coke once a year) because restricting myself from any one food spells disaster for me. For many like me, that is their reality.

Hope I helped to shed some light on a very complicated issue!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

http://www.dietdoctor.com/lchf

I wanted to repost the above link from Linda on the move, because I think it gives some really good general guidelines for people who don't have any ethical or health objections to eating animal products. I got wonderful results by following some advice along these same lines when I was pregnant with dd2, which really brought home to me the importance of protein.

I finally got in touch with an awesome midwife in my 7th month of pregnancy with dd2, and right off, we found out that my glucose and protein levels were out of whack. I was worried that I might have gestational diabetes or toxemia -- but she assured me that even this late in the pregnancy, it was totally possible to turn this situation around with diet. She stressed that I should eat small meals or snacks several times a day, and eat something high in protein each time.

We bought tons of cottage cheese and canned salmon -- she recommended the salmon not just for protein but also for the Omega 3 fats -- so that I had a quick and easy way to get a few bites of high-protein food anytime I ate anything. I also started most mornings by frying myself three eggs for breakfast.

Before starting this diet, I'd been craving tons of sugar, and had literally been baking and icing a chocolate cake or brownies about every other day. After starting it, I discovered that I was happy eating just one small piece of a dessert like this, after having eaten something high in protein.

My levels went back to normal, and I also dropped tons of weight. My midwife said she'd normally worry about such a big weight loss so late in pregnancy -- but in my case, she thought it was just water weight.

These days, I actually find I'm eating an average of only about two servings from the grain group most days -- and there don't seem to be any nutrients my body is missing. And I'm not craving it either. So I think there's something to be said about filling our bodies with what they need -- this does seem to be the best way to cut sugar cravings.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I also wanted to reemphasize the importance of learning to embrace active lifestyles, especially in the context of combatting obesity in general and childhood obesity in particular. Children in our society, especially poor children, have so many strikes against them when it comes to getting enough physical activity. In Fatland, Critser points out that funding cuts have caused many public schools to omit physical education entirely.

I feel very blessed and privileged to be able to work from home, When I noticed recently that dd2, who is 8, is not quite as active as she was when she was younger, and had started gaining some weight, I determined that after finishing work most afternoons, she and I needed to get outdoors together. In more comfortable weather, she has also been taking our dogs outdoors throughout the day and running around with them -- but now that it's up in the 90's, and we're without ac this summer again, she is naturally not motivated to move around much, whether indoors or out, so swimming is her main physical activity at the moment. It's so great that when I finish work, I'm right here at home and so is everyone else in our family -- there's no commute, no one to pick up. We can just change into our suits, slap on our sunscreen, and head out the door. And still have a little evening left when we get home.

And dd1, who is 13, is always welcome to come with us whenever she wants -- but I don't push her if she doesn't feel like it, since she is into her own routine of taking our big lab for six mile walks, practically every day. But I will say that our allowing dd1 to do this in our predominantly low-income neighborhood flies in the face of what some in our society would call good parenting. We feel safer letting her do this because she has a large dog -- but many parents wouldn't do it even then.

So I look at a lot of other low income parents like us with a lot of empathy. Maybe they weren't privileged enough to have the parental support to pursue a college degree -- the minimal requirement for my work-at-home job is a bachelor's degree -- so maybe they have to work some distance from their house, plus maybe they have to work a second job because of lower pay. Maybe they can't even afford to take care of a big dog, and therefore wouldn't feel at all comfortable allowing their 13yo dd to take long walks around the neighborhood.

There are even some suburban and small town parents who don't feel comfortable letting their kids roam the neighborhood -- but at least parents with higher incomes can usually enroll their kids in some sort of organized sport.

Finding the time to educate themselves about nutrition and to prepare the food -- not to mention the money to buy more nutritious foods and fewer starchy foods, as well as the time to help their children (and themselves) embrace an active lifestyle is so incredibly hard for many low income parents, so, as Critser says, it should come as no surprise that obesity is a much greater problem among the poor than among the rich.

It's true that the parents are the key to turning things around for their own kids -- but it seems grossly unfair to me to blame the parents. One big thing that we, as a society, need to invest in is creating safer neighborhoods for everyone. Children need to be able to step out their front doors and feel safe exploring and interacting with others, wherever they happen to live. Parents need to feel safe letting their kids out the door, and not be berated and called neglectful or bad parents for letting their kids play outside or walk to the store, to school, or to a friend's house.

So I guess I should say that parents are part of the solution, but changing the environment and the culture are another huge part. Rather then pointing the finger, we need to be working together on this.


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## PrimordialMind (May 4, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> There's no evidence that eating a diet high in fat causes someone to get fat. The scientific evidence shows the opposite -- a diet with 80% of calories from fat is a weight loss plan. On the other hand, a diet high in carbs (and the bottom of the food pyramid is carbs) is associated not just with weight gain, but with diabetes, arthritis, and heart disease. The food pyramid was designed by the FDA and is really good for agribusiness (pretty much everything at the bottom of the pyramid is now genetically modified -- this is about supporting Monsanto, not family farmers). Eating this way isn't good for anyone's health.
> 
> ...


When it comes to carbs, i don't believe they should all be avoided. The FDA wasn't specific, but its fairly common knowledge now that eating 100% whole wheat and other whole grain products is much better for your health than white flour. So while the bottom of the pyramid is carbs, that doesn't mean its saying to eat processed, white flour type carbs. Myself and many people wouldn't feel good if we cut way down on carbs, so i eat mostly whole grain type carbs. The high fat and high protein diet doesn't work for everyone, either, i think it depends on a person's body type, metabolism, activity level and probably other factors. Just as some people, like you, believe the food pyramid is unhealthy, others, like myself, see a lot of the newer diets to be unhealthy.

As far as the last 30 years go, i see emotional issues rising to the surface. Its only been during this time that people have been feeling more and more comfortable feeling and expressing a wide-range of emotions. Prior to this time, showing or feeling depressed was shunned as was anxiety, anger if you're a woman, confusion about life or one's purpose, feelings of worthlessness or despair, apathy, body image issues, sexual issues, and hatred. All of these emotions and problems were taboo and not an accepted part of society. People rarely went to therapists and treatment for pyschological issues was rudimentary and barbaric. So my speculation that a big reason why people are obese now rather than 30+ years ago is based on the reality that a lot of what we're experiencing these days is uncharted territory. Its difficult for a lot of people because they don't have the proper emotional guidance to help them deal with their feelings. Thus, turning to comforting food is one method to help them deal.

I understand your analogy about how eating foods in moderation that you're addicted to is the same as using heroin in moderation. That makes sense to me. For some people that probably is what its like. For others, though, going cold turkey could cause psychological harm due to having one of their few comforts taken away. For these people, the craving is based on a perceived emotional need that they don't know how to fill otherwise. These people need to learn new methods for dealing with their emotional pain before they totally let go of their comfort foods. This is what i meant by going down the middle of the road. If they eat these foods in moderation while also helping themselves heal emotionally, over time they won't crave those foods anymore since the emotional attachment was let go.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *PrimordialMind* 

When it comes to carbs, i don't believe they should all be avoided. The FDA wasn't specific, but its fairly common knowledge now that eating 100% whole wheat and other whole grain products is much better for your health than white flour. So while the bottom of the pyramid is carbs, that doesn't mean its saying to eat processed, white flour type carbs. Myself and many people wouldn't feel good if we cut way down on carbs, so i eat mostly whole grain type carbs. The high fat and high protein diet doesn't work for everyone, either, i think it depends on a person's body type, metabolism, activity level and probably other factors. Just as some people, like you, believe the food pyramid is unhealthy, others, like myself, see a lot of the newer diets to be unhealthy.
Low tar cigarettes are healthier than regular tar cigarettes, but that doesn't mean they are healthy. People who are addicted to them feel like hell if they try to quit. So if they are healthier and the person feels like hell if they try to quit, then does it follow that it is healthy to smoke low tar cigarettes?
I don't think that all carbs should be avoided -- heck, most vegies have carbs! Onions have carbs! Broccoli has carbs!
There are unhealthy diets out there, to be sure. But right now our FDA and AMA are not keeping up with the research and current science and are handing out old advice that our society has proven doesn't work. If the food pyramid worked for most people, we wouldn't have a country of fat people. My beliefs are based on a lot of research The conventional wisdom seems to drive a lot of people's views, and it doesn't match the research.

As far as the last 30 years go, i see emotional issues rising to the surface. Its only been during this time that people have been feeling more and more comfortable feeling and expressing a wide-range of emotions. Prior to this time, showing or feeling depressed was shunned as was anxiety, anger if you're a woman, confusion about life or one's purpose, feelings of worthlessness or despair, apathy, body image issues, sexual issues, and hatred. All of these emotions and problems were taboo and not an accepted part of society. People rarely went to therapists and treatment for pyschological issues was rudimentary and barbaric. So my speculation that a big reason why people are obese now rather than 30+ years ago is based on the reality that a lot of what we're experiencing these days is uncharted territory. Its difficult for a lot of people because they don't have the proper emotional guidance to help them deal with their feelings. Thus, turning to comforting food is one method to help them deal.
People have more and better access to mental health now than at any time in human history, and you think that causes them to overeat? That doesn't make sense to me. People should have healthier eating based on that because we have so many options -- from therapist to self help books to whatever. We have lots of options to deal with our problems besides food.
Also, we work out more. 30 years ago ladies didn't excess because it wasn't lady like -- yet fewer ladies had weight problems.
So we are more emotionally healthy, have more options with our lives, get more exercise, spend more on diet programs! and yet have the highest rates of obesity every! And despite all our efforts, they keep going up!
30 years ago our food supplies started changing (GMO wheat,) and our dietary recommendations changed (grains were in, fat was out) and we as a nation have just gotten fatter and fatter since then.


> I understand your analogy about how eating foods in moderation that you're addicted to is the same as using heroin in moderation. That makes sense to me. For some people that probably is what its like. For others, though, going cold turkey could cause psychological harm due to having one of their few comforts taken away. For these people, the craving is based on a perceived emotional need that they don't know how to fill otherwise. These people need to learn new methods for dealing with their emotional pain before they totally let go of their comfort foods. This is what i meant by going down the middle of the road. *If they eat these foods in moderation* while also helping themselves heal emotionally, over time they won't crave those foods anymore since the emotional attachment was let go.


If they could eat the foods in moderation, then they aren't addicted to them. There are two 12 step programs for food addiction -- Overeaters Anonymous and Food Addicts Anonymous. Both are great programs with very solid literature. Having done both programs, I preferred overeaters anonymous. It's actually a lovely personal growth program.

If any substance is wrecking a person's body and life, and they are incapable of consuming it in moderation, then it is in their own best interests to not consume that substance. And yes, some people need a lot of help and support and other changes to make it happen. Some of them attend meetings just like alcoholics do.

To imply that someone should continue eating food that is slowly killing them (obesity is one of the leading causes of death in the US) because they really need that food isn't compassionate or caring.


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## PrimordialMind (May 4, 2013)

I can't quote most of what you said, Linda, because you commented within the brackets of my quote. I will respond to what you said, though. First of all, your analogy about low-tar vs normal cigarettes isnt exactly parallel to white flour vs whole wheat flour or whole grain flour. Whole grain flour doesn't cause sugar spikes the same way white flour does and the fiber content is high, which helps with digestion and feeling satiated. It is a whole food, not a highly processed food, so this would be more like comparing tomatoes with generic ketchup. Obviously there is a huge difference--one is a food, the other is a condiment that is mostly made of water and high fructose corn syrup.

Again, i wonder if most people who are both overweight and follow the food pyramid are eating mostly overprocessed white flour or whole grain flour? Does your research include that distinction?

Yes, therapy is better, yes, there are more choices. But that doesnt mean professionals have all the answers nor is real emotional help an overnight thing. It usually takes a person with chronic emotional issues years before they feel healthy. Some people never do even with honest effort. Also, many people feel ashamed and do not seek help because of their shame. Food will not judge or reject them.

People are actually more sedentary than they were more than 30 years ago. They didnt have all the modern conveniences and appliances they do now. My mother would hand wash and line dry my brother's cloth diapers every other day. How many moms can say they do that now? That's just one example of many in which we are living in a society of convenience, which makes sitting on our butts very easy to do.

I can tell you want to focus on the "wheat" issue and basically ignore what i have to say. So be it. We all have our own perspectives, i am okay with that.

Lastly, i know about OA, my mom has gone to the meetings for years. I dont think you're understanding my perspective on moderation--obviously if someone is deep into their addiction they won't be able to keep it in moderation. I am referring to people who are also working on their emotional health, so that the cravings naturally become less and less over time. I believe unhealthy food cravings are emotionally based, thus, by healing emotions you are also healing the food issues.

I just found this article: http://chronicle.com/article/What-Would-Great-Grandma-Eat-/130890/
I found it interesting, you might, too, so i'm sharing it.

One more thing--http://www.ohmyraw.com/is-the-paleo-diet-really-healthy/
This doesnt really address the wheat issue but it is still good to read.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

While it's true that women weren't working out in the past, I agree with PrimordialMind that they had more physical activity throughout the day, just doing their daily household tasks. Also, most families were one-car families, so if fathers took the car to work each day, I suppose many mothers were walking to the grocery store.

And children were tremendously more active than they are now. Parents weren't afraid to let them roam the neighborhood, and there were a lot more child-organized sports and games.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PrimordialMind*
> 
> First of all, your analogy about low-tar vs normal cigarettes isnt exactly parallel to white flour vs whole wheat flour or whole grain flour. Whole grain flour doesn't cause sugar spikes the same way white flour does and the fiber content is high, which helps with digestion and feeling satiated. It is a whole food, not a highly processed food, so this would be more like comparing tomatoes with generic ketchup. Obviously there is a huge difference--one is a food, the other is a condiment that is mostly made of water and high fructose corn syrup.
> 
> ....People are actually more sedentary than they were more than 30 years ago. They didnt have all the modern conveniences and appliances they do now. My mother would hand wash and line dry my brother's cloth diapers every other day. How many moms can say they do that now? That's just one example of many in which we are living in a society of convenience, which makes sitting on our butts very easy to do.


Here are some stats:

According to Harvard, the glycemic index of Wonder Bread is 73

And the glycemic index of whole wheat bread is 71

pasta made with white flour is 48

whole wheat pasta is 42

http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsweek/Glycemic_index_and_glycemic_load_for_100_foods.htm

So while whole wheat is lower, it isn't low. Eating whole grains leads to blood sugar high and lows, insulin spikes, and eventually, insulin resistance, and type II diabetes just like the refined stuff.

Whole wheat products are highly processed and aren't the least bit natural -- even the wheat they start with isn't natural. It was created in a lab. If you are interested in this, I recommend reading "wheat belly."

One of the things I find insidious about wheat is the belief that people think it is healthy. It really deserves a reputation like sugar or alcohol -- a food to be enjoyed in moderation. Not a healthy food to eat several times a day.

It was highly unusually for people to be washing clothes by hand 30 years ago. The last person in my family who washed diapers by hand was my grandmother, and she had her kids in the last 1930's and early 1940's. I honestly can't think of a single time saving device available now that wasn't widely available in 1983. Microwaves, dishwashers, crock pots were all quite common. (BTW, I'm 48). Clothes washers and dryers have been common since the 1950s.

While every segment of our population is heavier than they were 30 years ago, the group most effected are those with low income, and they are less likely to own all the machines that make life so easy, so this whole argument falls apart.

I also don't buy that activity levels for adults have changed that much in the last 30 years. Last 60 years -- yes. Last 30 years -- no. I can't find any any studies that prove it one way or the other, which is odd, because it gets stated over and over.

One thing that has drastically changed in this time is our food supply. Not just wheat, but pretty much everything is now factory farmed and just different. Farms animals aren't feed they same kind of food, and our whole grocery store is a mecca of processed foods, many of which are touted as healthy. *I don't know why it is so hard to believe that a big chunk of the problem is the food supply.*


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mammal_mama*
> 
> While it's true that women weren't working out in the past, I agree with PrimordialMind that they had more physical activity throughout the day, just doing their daily household tasks. *Also, most families were one-car families, so if fathers took the car to work each day, I suppose many mothers were walking to the grocery store.*
> 
> And children were tremendously more active than they are now. Parents weren't afraid to let them roam the neighborhood, and there were a lot more child-organized sports and games.


This is not how people lived in 1983. Really, really not. This really shows a lack of understanding.

People lived pretty much like they do now -- mostly 2 income families, lots of divorce, fewer never married parents, lots of cars. No body WALKED anywhere.

BTW -- I'm older than you. I was 18 30 years ago. You have your time frame, way, way off.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

Sigh... I don't get why it can't just be accepted that bodies are different and minds are different. Experiences are different. If one thing works for another then that's great. We don't need everyone to do the same thing to get to the same place.


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## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

I think there's a lot more pre-packaged junk food available and affordable to families. If you don't have much money, its a lot easier to cook up a 50 cent box of mac and cheese. Fruits/veggies add to the cost and aren't as filling. Large plates/portion control are also bigger problems now than 30 years ago. Overall, I blame society for not taking better care of our children. Linda--how do you feel about rice and potatoes?


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

I think there's truth to both sides. It's absolutely true that big agribusiness has its own interests at heart, not our health. Shady things definitely happen in the food industry, like a massive surplus in corn supply leading, in part, to the trend of HFCS suddenly being used in nearly every processed product on grocery store shelves. Food deserts definitely exist in inner cities, where families are literally unable to buy fresh (nevermind local or organic) produce without a herculean effort. And stuff like that has, in turn, contributed to the skyrocketing weight problem in our country (which is now spreading worldwide). There is definitely a corporate component to the obesity epidemic; it's not solely an emotional failing on the part of individual eaters.

But I do think that different diets work for different people. Plenty of people maintain a healthy weight and don't exhibit allergy-type symptoms on a diet that includes wheat. Sometimes starting a new diet and seeing/feeling the good results can cause people to become rather evangelical about that particular eating plan, but I don't believe there's a magic bullet. Barring allergies/intolerances, eating everything in moderation and getting regular exercise will, theoretically, cause most everyone to be reasonably fit and healthy.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dalia*
> 
> Sigh... I don't get why it can't just be accepted that bodies are different and minds are different. Experiences are different. If one thing works for another then that's great. We don't need everyone to do the same thing to get to the same place.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *limabean*
> 
> But I do think that different diets work for different people. *Plenty of people maintain a healthy weight* and don't exhibit allergy-type symptoms on a diet that includes wheat. .... Barring allergies/intolerances, eating everything in moderation and getting regular exercise will, theoretically, cause most everyone to be reasonably fit and healthy.


I totally agree that different things work for different people, however, I think its quite obvious that the majority of people don't know what works for them. 2/3 of Americans are either overweight or obese, and the rates go up every single year. Most people who loose weight regain it. There are no simple answers for people with issues with their weight.

Wheat aside, I don't agree that "plenty" of people maintain a healthy weight. People with a healthy weight are in the minority, and that's not including those who are underweight or in the appropriate range because of behavior that is extremely hurtful to their bodies and minds.

As far as moderation, I agree that most people can eat wheat in moderation.

If it were as simple as eating less, eating healthy, and moving more, wouldn't more people be at a healthy weight? Weight loss is a $60 billion a year business in the US*, and now our most effective medical treatment for obesity is to remove a healthy organ. Many people are DESPERATE and willing to try anything. The notion that they are overweight because they are lazy gluttons who can't be bothered to take responsible is just blaming the victim. We have a public health crises, one that not only shorten lives, but significantly lowers the quality of life with complications such as diabetes, arthritis, etc.

Quote:from the CDC
http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/adult/causes/index.html


> *National Estimated Cost of Obesity*
> The medical care costs of obesity in the United States are staggering. In 2008 dollars, these costs totaled about $147 billion.5


We need our FDA to change their recommendations to those that would support people maintaining a healthy weight, rather than having recommendations that are a recipe for *most* to *eventually* have problems.

We need our primary doctors to be trained in nutrition and weight management, because they are often the experts that people talk to when they have tried everything they know and it hasn't worked. They need to know what to say to actually help people -- to sort out emotional eating from food intolerance to portion control etc. We need them to be willing to say that the FDA is off, and provide REAL guidance based on scientific evidence about what works to help people lose and maintain weight.

*http://www.worldometers.info/weight-loss/


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## PrimordialMind (May 4, 2013)

It is that simple and i think thats the biggest reason why people have a difficult time with it. Life is not lived simply anymore. Many people are stressed, constantly on-the-go, live life behind desks and the wheels of their car, and often dont have the time or energy to cook good meals, let alone exercise. I see it as an imbalance of priorities. We, as a society, are more focused on production and acquiring than we are on the simple things of life. This is why the body often doesnt get the nurturing it needs because it has simple needs. So we often wait until there's a problem before we figure out what to do. At that point its much harder to live in a healthy way because our minds and bodies are accustomed to eating and moving a certain way. Prevention is key, which means start good habits as soon as possible and teach your kids these habits.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Moderator jumping in here quickly before a Parenting mod has a chance to read through the last few pages of this thread. This is obviously a difficult topic and it seems like it may be made even more difficult to have by discussing specific diets and foods. Please keep in mind that the topic of what we eat is deeply personal. Please talk the issues not the member and try not to take someone's philosophy about a particular food personally. Likewise, please be sensitive when discussing food choices so as to not offend members who make different choices from you.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Linda, I'm 49 so I'm actually older than you are, but I think I wasn't strictly doing the math and thinking about 30 years ago being in the 1980s.

As I've already said, I do think the low carb, high fat diet recommendations are good as a general guideline, for those who are okay with eating animal products. I agree with you that grains are not necessary -- at least, not when you can afford to buy plenty of the foods they recommend.

In my own case, when I packed on all my extra pounds, I wasn't laboring under the delusion that I was eating according to the Food Pyramid. I never thought the Food Pyramid recommended large amounts of pastry on an almost daily basis. I really don't recall counting my servings of grain each day, other than on a couple of occasions.

Also, in my own case, developing an active lifestyle has been every bit as important as mindful eating. Getting more active actually helped me reach the emotional place wherein I could carry out a major overhaul of my relationship with food.

While people 30 years ago may not have been any more active than people today, it's pretty clear that our more distant ancestors were very active and that's how our bodies function best.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

P.S. I think one reason I got confused about the time period you were referring to is that you also referred to it as a time when it was considered unladylike for women to exercise -- and that's not how I recall the 1980's in my particular region of the U.S. (the Midwest).

Here, that was the time when gym memberships, and going jogging, were becoming popular, and they seemed to be just as popular with women as with men.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Also, with regard to emotional intelligence, sometimes we have to get really sick before we can heal. One big way in which our society has changed is that we have started moving away from blaming and shaming people for making poor choices and letting their lives get out of control. From what I've been able to learn about Europe, there is still a lot of shame associated with obesity, and I think fear of public disapproval can cause many people to repress their unhealthy urges, but it's not exactly a healthy situation.

However, I'm really not saying that the U.S. is any healthier than Europe. Apart from the shame factor, many Europeans also have the advantage of living in cities where there's a tremendous amount of public support for public transit and bike sharing programs. European governments seem to be way ahead of the U.S. in terms of wanting to encourage people to reduce their carbon footprint, and in many European cities, it's much cheaper to use public transit than it is to drive your own personal car. And using public transit usually involves doing a good deal of walking as part of your daily routine.

Europeans also have much healthier eating habits in general. It's still much more common for them to cook practically all of their meals from scratch, and going through a drive-through on the way home from work and consuming your dinner in the car is really unheard of there, because of the strong priority of sharing your meal with your loved ones. So maybe what I referred to as the "shame factor" is really the simple fact that, not having developed our supersize, sedentary lifestyle, Europeans also don't know as many fat people. So the way we live and the way we look is just totally foreign to them.

I'm certainly not saying that we should go back to shaming people! I think our society is moving forward into a healthier way of living, but as we transition, a lot of our unhealthy stuff is coming to the surface, and one expression of this is the obesity epidemic. Rather than trying to go back to a time in which people were thinner, but were also repressed, less open minded, and so on, it makes more sense to move forward.

One way to move forward is (to borrow from that popular cliché) to "embrace diversity" and realize that, as others here have already said, there is no one-size-fits-all solution.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> This is not how people lived in 1983. Really, really not. This really shows a lack of understanding.
> 
> ...


I have to agree. The only major lifestyle/activity difference I've noticed from my teens (I'm 45) is that there are more kids sitting around playing videogames...but those same kids are also watching less tv, in many cases. (I watched tv for 2-3 hours every night when I was in my early teens. DS1 watches very little tv, but does play videogames.) I also see fewer kids walking to school than when I was a kid...but I'd say I see as many adults walking around as I did then.

The low income aspect interests me. In my own experience, low income families tend to do a lot more walking. For many years, I couldn't afford a car. I walked a good chunk of my commute to work (the rest was on public transit), walked ds1 to school, walked to and from the grocery store (at least five times per week, as there was a limit to how much I could carry), etc. Since we got a car, my walking time has cut down considerably - although a lot of that is because ds2 was always really incautious around traffic, and it was just too stressful to take him out walking.

But, food? Half the stuff I see in the stores didn't even exist when I was a teen...there were no "Grapples", no Lunchables, no pizza pockets. There was a lot of highly processed food available, but not to the extent that it's around now. And, I have to say - it's bad here in Canada, but the first time I walked into an American grocery store (in TN), I was blown away by the array of...I don't even know what to call it - freezer sections full of ...stuff - dyed, flavoured, frozen french fries, cans and boxes of I-don't-know-what. I don't know if I can even describe the experience to someone who lives there and is used to the stores, but it was honestly kind of freaky. I don't know all the answers the obesity epidemic, but I know that the handful of US grocery stores that I've set foot into really kind of scared me.

There's also been some kind of social shift (although it seems to be reversing itself to some degree) about food. I didn't know anybody, except some teenagers, who ate fast food regularly when I was growing up. It seems to be fairly common now. I didn't know anybody who got fast food breakfasts when I was growing up - lots of people do it now. I can't recall a single family who kept pop/soda/whatever in the fridge as a regular thing, but many people seem to do that now. I think it was a gradual shift, but it's visible, if you look back.


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## PrimordialMind (May 4, 2013)

I can understand how shocking it must have been to see a typical US grocery store. We really do have way too much eye-catching "fun" food that is catered to the child's eye. It is sickening and has definitely gotten worse with time. I doubt most people realize a lot of that stuff isn't really food, at least not the type that nourishes your body. They probably assume if its at the grocery store then that must mean its good to eat! Its sad, really. I wish more people knew the trick i learned awhile back, which is get the bulk of your food from the perimeter of the store since this is typically where whole foods are placed--veggies, fruit, milk, yogurt, cheese, meat. The food that's down the aisles is predominantly processed, so that should only make up a small portion of what you buy, thus, shop there last.


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PrimordialMind*
> 
> I can understand how shocking it must have been to see a typical US grocery store. We really do have way too much eye-catching "fun" food that is catered to the child's eye. It is sickening and has definitely gotten worse with time. *I doubt most people realize a lot of that stuff isn't really food, at least not the type that nourishes your body.* They probably assume if its at the grocery store then that must mean its good to eat! Its sad, really. I wish more people knew the trick i learned awhile back, which is get the bulk of your food from the perimeter of the store since this is typically where whole foods are placed--veggies, fruit, milk, yogurt, cheese, meat. The food that's down the aisles is predominantly processed, so that should only make up a small portion of what you buy, thus, shop there last.


This is where I think the go food, glow food, grow food system of teaching nutrition works better than the food pyramid, or the Canadian food guide. The go, glow, grow system gets people thinking about what food items do for their bodies, instead of just which categories foods fit into.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *PrimordialMind* 

I can understand how shocking it must have been to see a typical US grocery store. We really do have way too much eye-catching "fun" food that is catered to the child's eye. It is sickening and has definitely gotten worse with time.
I honestly think one of the reasons it was so shocking to me is that I find our stores to be awful, and couldn't really picture anything worse, yk? And, you're right - it's all the eye-catching "fun" stuff that really does it. The whole approach to processing/packaging food seems to have shifted more and more from a base of convenience to a base of marketing.
I doubt most people realize a lot of that stuff isn't really food, at least not the type that nourishes your body. They probably assume if its at the grocery store then that must mean its good to eat! Its sad, really. I wish more people knew the trick i learned awhile back, which is get the bulk of your food from the perimeter of the store since this is typically where whole foods are placed--veggies, fruit, milk, yogurt, cheese, meat. The food that's down the aisles is predominantly processed, so that should only make up a small portion of what you buy, thus, shop there last.


> That's what I've always done, as well. It works well (as long as I remember not to shop when I'm hungry, as that tends to result in bags of potato chips and such).


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I was at our local, regionally owned (I think) HFS this week and noticed a new sign for customers announcing that they will stop stocking any foods that markets to children - including anything with a gimmicky food shape or cartoon character. Because a lot of "health foods" have joined the ranks of mainstream foods in terms of marketing to children, they have had to pull a lot of products. This impressed me quite a bit more than any marketing campaign I've seen in years.


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## PrimordialMind (May 4, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
> 
> I was at our local, regionally owned (I think) HFS this week and noticed a new sign for customers announcing that they will stop stocking any foods that markets to children - including anything with a gimmicky food shape or cartoon character. Because a lot of "health foods" have joined the ranks of mainstream foods in terms of marketing to children, they have had to pull a lot of products. This impressed me quite a bit more than any marketing campaign I've seen in years.


Wow, that is really awesome! That is definitely something to celebrate. Hopefully the decision will start a trend in other areas, too. The only notable positive change that's happened in food stores where i live is a ban on plastic bags. Its great but definitely not the only thing that needs improvement.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

About poor people walking more, I think this is definitely true for the poorest of the poor, some of whom have never had cars. And it's also true that a lot of the people I see out walking and catching the bus are overweight or obese. I'm not sure why that is. Back in my mid-to-late 20's, I went through two different periods, each lasting about a year, where I didn't have a car and walked or took the bus practically everywhere, and the exercise kept me within a normal weight range, in spite of the fact that, as at least one colleague said, I "ate like a horse." And the food I was "eating like a horse" was largely the high-carb, processed stuff.

When I was single and childless (which was until age 35), even during the times when I had a car, I usually made it a point to go for long, brisk walks at least a few times a week. After having children, this became more challenging to keep up. We still got out and walked, but it was at their paces and usually didn't feel like much of a workout for me. And being at home all day, I was suddenly able to snack continually.

So as to why so many people are obese in spite of walking everywhere and using public transportation, I'm guessing that it may have to do with there being no "one size fits all" solution that helps everyone reach and stay at a healthy weight, and also due to the fact that some people don't ever really walk at a brisk pace, either because they are walking with their children or because they're unable to or don't like it. I recall one colleague, from years ago, who went for a walk with me and said she didn't like going at such a fast pace. She said she'd rather slow down and watch the squirrels. I like squirrels, too, but going really slow just doesn't give me the surge of energy that going faster does. The surge of energy was more fun for me than the squirrel watching; I'd rather do the brisk walk and then slow down and watch squirrels -- but she felt the opposite.

It's kind of like what others in this thread have said about carbs and comfort foods, and about occasionally eating small portions of certain rich, sugary desserts vs. giving them up entirely. One thing works for one person, but not for another. A diet or exercise program may be scientifically proven and deemed effective by experts, but if the person following it is miserable, they probably won't be able to sustain any weight they lose following it over the long term.

In my city, there is another group of poor people -- those living just below the poverty line who usually manage to hold down jobs. These people usually have cars because our city's public transportation system doesn't enable most people to get out to the suburbs where many of the above-minimum-wage paying jobs are, at least not at the times when they would need to get there to start work at, say, eight or nine, and catch the bus home at, say, five or six. Also, for people earning minimum wage or close to it, they may have to work two or three jobs to make ends meet and it's really hard to get to all those different locations in one day without a car.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PrimordialMind*
> 
> Wow, that is really awesome! That is definitely something to celebrate. Hopefully the decision will start a trend in other areas, too. The only notable positive change that's happened in food stores where i live is a ban on plastic bags. Its great but definitely not the only thing that needs improvement.


It really is. Not to be a Debby Downer, but the flip side of this is that these stores are cost prohibitive for most people in the area, including me. I "splurge" there from time to time but it's not where I can shop on a regular basis. That said, they do tend to support local schools and seem to try VERY hard to keep prices reasonable. But, as we all know, "real food" is not as cheaply produced as other types of foods.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I really agree with what's being said about real food vs. cheap food and, but I also have something else to say about walking and using public transit.

I think the feeling one gets when walking and using public transportation for daily needs like getting to work or the grocery store in my city, in which public transit is pretty much seen as something for poor people who have no other option, must be vastly different from the feeling one gets when using public transportation for daily needs in a city like Paris or New York City, in which public transit is used by middle class people, too (I imagine the very rich are more likely to use taxis a lot).

When people with money use a service, that service tends to improve.

And the way a person feels about not having a car -- whether they see themselves as car-free or car-less -- may very well affect how much "pep" they have in their step. I think the way we feel while doing whatever exercise we're doing plays a huge part in how that exercise affects our health.


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## PrimordialMind (May 4, 2013)

Thats a very good point, mammal mama. The way we feel about the exercise we do does affect our health. In Portland, OR a lot of people use public transportation or walk or bike, no matter their income level. I've noticed that most people seem rather peppy when they walk and get around, its just the normal, socially acceptable thing to do. Here in L.A., only poor people use public transit and cars are very much the norm. Its rare to see a peppy person walking or waiting at the bus stop. I'm sure this affects how much the exercise affects our bodies from how many calories we burn to how well we are working our muscles plus other effects, i'm sure. I personally don't force myself to exercise if i really, really don't want to or only do it if i need to, like walking to the store. I find that its just not satisfying to exercise when i don't feel up to it. I don't put as much effort in and it doesn't really make me feel better.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mammal_mama*
> 
> I wasn't strictly doing the math and thinking about 30 years ago being in the 1980s.
> 
> ...


The upswing in rates of obesity only started 30 years ago, so it seems to me that trying to figure out what is different between then and now is the first step to turning this around.

The food pyramid in effect until last year recommended 6-11 serving of enriched grains, which is a heck of a lot of pasta. The one recommends 6 oz, at least half of which is whole grains. That's about half a box of pasta -- still a lot.

I do agree that our distant ancestors were more active and that our bodies function best with exercise, not just for weight maintenance, but for overall health. However, fitness is a big industry now, and it really wasn't 30 years ago (it was just getting started). So we as a nation are trying harder, but still gaining more weight.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> But, food? Half the stuff I see in the stores didn't even exist when I was a teen...there were no "Grapples", no Lunchables, no pizza pockets. There was a lot of highly processed food available, but not to the extent that it's around now. And, I have to say - it's bad here in Canada, but the first time I walked into an American grocery store (in TN), I was blown away by the array of...I don't even know what to call it - freezer sections full of ...stuff - dyed, flavoured, frozen french fries, cans and boxes of I-don't-know-what. I don't know if I can even describe the experience to someone who lives there and is used to the stores, but it was honestly kind of freaky. I don't know all the answers the obesity epidemic, but I know that the handful of US grocery stores that I've set foot into really kind of scared me.
> 
> There's also been some kind of social shift (although it seems to be reversing itself to some degree) about food. I didn't know anybody, except some teenagers, who ate fast food regularly when I was growing up. It seems to be fairly common now. I didn't know anybody who got fast food breakfasts when I was growing up - lots of people do it now. I can't recall a single family who kept pop/soda/whatever in the fridge as a regular thing, but many people seem to do that now. I think it was a gradual shift, but it's visible, if you look back.


totally agree. We had processed foods, not not to the same degree. I suspect that the ingredients in the processed foods have gotten scarier as well. As a child, my family had soda with dinner on Saturday night as a special weekend thing, the rest of the time it was one glass of milk with dinner (almost like taking a vitamin) and then drinking water. Fast food was a very, very rare treat. Fast food breakfasts didn't even exist. I can remember people talking about how crazy it was when McD first announced they would serve breakfast.

Another thing about American food -- some things that LOOK like just ingredients and that people think of as unprocessed foods, really aren't. Much of our meat has been injected with solutions "to help maintain freshness."

One of my DD's had an assignment to go to a grocery store and find 50 items that had some form of corn in them -- she was given a list of all the names of corn to make it easier. She was dreading it because she thought it would take forever and be really hard. She find it so easy that it really creeped her out.


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## mamarhu (Sep 12, 2004)

A few thoughts as I read this thread...

If walking were an exercise that would keep down weight, there would be no overweight waitresses or nurses.

For me, my weight is all about metabolism. When I turned 50 (5 years ago), I gained about 50 pounds. In about 10 minutes, it seemed. Menopause, gray hair, wrinkles, and weight gain. All at once. I knew I would get old, but I never imagined I would get fat! My diet, lifestyle, or activity level hasn't much changed. Through several pregnancies, nursing while pregnant, tandem nursing, I never put on much body fat. Even when I tried. I ate whatever I wanted. I have always eaten more whole grains than highly refined, more cheese and eggs than meat, and lots and lots of fresh vegetables. I have never much cared for sweets in any form, not even fresh fruit. I eat plenty of carbs, but much rice, potatoes, and corn (tortillas), as well as wheat, depending on the country I am living in.

Looking back, I was slim as a little kid, heavy once puberty came (at 9), and average (healthy weight) from age 17 through 50. And now I have a huge belly, and can wear maternity clothes. And still eat and live the same as ever. Go figger...

For my kids, I think it is metabolism as well. YoungSon can eat whatever he wants (and he loves him some processed foods, although he doesn't really get that much of that kind of stuff). He does not get fat. Simply doesn't. Never has. BigGirl is vegan, walks daily, and is health conscious in every way. And she struggles to keep her weight down. Has been chunky since she was a toddler. ElderSon eats the most highly processed diet I have ever seen (so much for parental influence!). Last time I was at his house, I commented that all the food was artificially orange - Boxed mac 'n' cheese, Tang, and Cheetos. But as an Army drill sergeant, his life is all about physical training, so he stays slim but buff. We are each so different.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Curious about the "whys" we have been discussing I read these two interesting articles, which touch on everything we've been discussing:

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2009/07/20/090720crbo_books_kolbert?currentPage=3

http://science.nationalgeographic.com/science/health-and-human-body/human-body/fat-costs/#page=5


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Linda, I don't disagree at all with what you're saying about the role of increased grain consumption and the insidious introduction of corn into so much of what most Americans eat. I see what you mean about this occurring simultaneously with the surge of obesity in this country.

At the same time, I can't help looking at the bigger picture and thinking that the sedentary lifestyle habit, although it was already in place before the big increase In weight, also played and continues to play a huge part. I guess I'm saying this from personal experience, because exercise that I enjoy makes me feel good and sets the stage for me to eat mindfully and exercise self control.

mamarhu, I worked as a nurse's aide in a nursing home for a short time in my early thirties; I had actually packed on some extra pounds before taking this job, and I found that for me, this kind of work had a very slimming affect. I also loved it and loved the people, and felt a strong sense of urgency because there were always more needs than there were staff and time available to meet the needs. So I think my love for the job, and the sense of urgency I always felt, put a lot of pep into my step and made me healthier as a result. But it's also true that there are a lot of overweight nurses and nurse's aides. In a nursing home, the nurses do tend to spend most of their time at the nursing desk, though, and as for the overweight nurse's aides, I guess it's just a case of what has been said before -- different things work for different people. Walking doesn't work for everyone -- but it does help some of us.

I'll turn 50 in May of 2014, so I'll have to see how it affects me. I don't know the average age of menopause for my family, because my mother had a hysterectomy because of dropped organs after my brother was born, and my sister, who is 19 years older than me, doesn't remember when she stopped menstruating. So I know the big change is coming at some point, but I'm not sure when. I guess no one's ever really sure.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamarhu*
> 
> If walking were an exercise that would keep down weight, there would be no overweight waitresses or nurses.


I lose weight quite easily when I walk regularly. Of course, those periods tend to coincide with periods in which I'm more mindful of what I eat, and it all works together. But walking can be adequate exercise for lots of people, as long as you're expending more energy than you're taking in. If a nurse wolfs donuts throughout the day, then sure, her walking at work won't be enough to offset that.

That said, metabolism definitely plays a role. I have a friend who has always had to work way harder than anyone I know to keep her weight down. Even in high school, when the rest of us ate like crap and were skinny anyway, she had to really watch what she ate and exercise regularly. And we thought of her as being a little fat, even though looking back she totally wasn't. Now, as an adult, she's thinner than myself and many of my friends, maybe in part because she learned good habits and discipline at a young age, whereas those of us blessed with fast metabolisms as kids/teens paid the price once we had to start actually participating in our health and appearance.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

It is true that the daily calorie recommendations decrease a little bit as we cross over into our 50s. It's a good thing that this is coinciding with my newfound sense of contentment with much smaller portion sizes!


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## mamarhu (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
> 
> Curious about the "whys" we have been discussing I read these two interesting articles, which touch on everything we've been discussing:
> 
> ...


Thank you for these links. Very interesting. Especially the New Yorker one.


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## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

Intereting links.... I agree with the larger portion sizes. I think that's probably the biggest change over the last 30 years. I bought new plates/bowls a few years ago and was astounded at how much bigger they all are now. I have a hard time eating half a bowl of soup out of a large bowl. Its much more satisfying to eat a full bowl of soup out of a small bowl!


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Is the USDA's food pyramid/plate relevant to your life? Relevant to the choices you make at the grocery store? I'm asking myself this, too. It's not that important to me. It is interesting to know what the USDA thinks is healthy eating. Grouped together with a number of other sources, I guess I do use it to help make choices. It's one of multiple tools.


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## PrimordialMind (May 4, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *journeymom*
> 
> Is the USDA's food pyramid/plate relevant to your life? Relevant to the choices you make at the grocery store? I'm asking myself this, too. It's not that important to me. It _is_ interesting to know what the USDA thinks is healthy eating. Grouped together with a number of other sources, I guess I do use it to help make choices. It's one of multiple tools.


Honestly i haven't thought about it much since i was a kid. They shoved it down our throats at school (no pun intended ha), but i have never enjoyed counting servings. As an adult, i simply focus on eating whole foods and limiting processed foods, that feels much more important than following the food pyramid.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I'm in Canada, but we have our own healthy eating guide. I pay no attention to it at all. I try to keep my carbs down, especially sugar (I have issues with binging on sugar). I try to keep my protein up. I try to eat natural fats, from both animal and plant sources. I also try to "eat a rainbow" when it comes to my fruit and veggie intake. I may not do so on a daily basis, but I try to make sure I do over the course of 2-3 days.

So...my kale/quinoa salad has garlic and onion (white), carrots (orange), red and yellow peppers (self evident), and kale (green)...a nice rainbow in one dish. I cut a variety of raw veggies - in different colours - for dinner every night. I try to make stir fries, shishkebabs, salads, etc. with a variety of veggies. I don't really focus that much on how many servings of what, and I'm not even a real "eat a huge variety of foods every day" kind of person. I just like to mix up the colours when it comes to produce. I eat more green than anything else (leafy greens, celery, broccoli, cucumber, avocado, etc.), but lots of other stuff, too.

I honestly don't even know what the recommended servings are - not for myself, and not for my kids.

BTW: I've never gone on a diet. I've made a few very basic changes in my eating habits recently - mostly eliminating added sugar (will still have a slice of birthday cake, add a bit of honey to my yogurt, etc.) and watching my portions, especially of grains/starches. With just those changes, I've dropped 15 pounds since early June....and we've had three familiy birthdays, with a total of four cakes (I got two - a Black Forest at home, and a carrot cake at my mom's) during that time. This has been incredibly easy - but two months ago, it was a huge struggle and very emotionally draining and destructive. I just had to get the right place in my head to stop mini-binging. It's not that straightforward for everybody, but it was for me. (In my early 20s, quit smoking cold turkey the same way - just went "okay, I've had enough of the smoking thing", and that was that.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


> I've spent the last couple of years working in obesity research; however, I have no real expertise in this field. I've been to a few meetings and have heard what some sociologists have to say so I thought I'd chime in.
> 
> Firstly, obesity is the #1 heath crisis in this country. The rates of obesity have risen so dramatically since 1980 it is mind-blowing. In many states, 1 in 3 adults are obese. The health issues associated with obesity are numerous, life-threatening, and it will cost a fortune to treat.


In 1998, the NIH changed the BMI charts, lowering the numbers for overweight and obese, so there was a sudden spike in the number of obese and overweight after that change. I'm not sure how it affected children, but childhood obesity increased between 1998 and 2003, but then decreased slightly between 2003 and 2010, and has decreased more since 2012.

It's honestly hard to say what the cost of treating obesity is when there are links between things that have a negative effect on health that also cause weight gain or obesity. For example, formula feeding is linked to more health issues including greater incidence of diabetes, and is also linked to greater incidence of obesity. Metabolic disorders can cause weight gain and also cause disease that has a deleterious effect on health.

Then there is the fact that a healthy diet & exercise can lead to a moderate weight loss which can lower blood pressure and cholesterol, but still not get the person into the normal weight BMI category.

It sounds like there is a lot of equating health with thinness here, and I find that problematic. If your child only eats apple slices for a snack while another child eats a cookie, is your child is the thinnest one in the classroom, and all the rest are fat because of their poor eating habits? In the similar situations I have observed, I have not found this to be the case. Now the other children might not be as healthy but that is not the same thing. I stress with my children all the time not to conflate health with body size, because there are many people who make destructive lifestyle choices who aren't fat, and we can't know all there is to know about someone's health because of their size.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

This thread ended up about weight in general and how much it relates to diet, but we have a lot of new posters lately and I thought I'd bump it for more discussion about whether there is any amount of neglect/abuse in having an overweight child. I don't think every case of an overweight child is abusive or neglectful, but I do still feel like young kids get at least a large amount of their food from their parents and there is some level of responsibility, though some kids seem wired to be larger and some kids seem wired to be smaller no matter wha they eat. I guess I feel very responsible for what foods my kids have available to them, and I feel like other parents are also the ones feeding their kids. But even then I have to recognize that I have lots of money and time available to cook from scratch and with wholesome and expensive whole foods, and that is unusual. I can't by any means expect everyone to be able to do that. If parents are in a situation where they have to get as many calories as they can for a small amount of money, or are having to rely on processed convenience foods, it isn't fair to judge them based on my circumstances.

So my feelings are very confused and all over the place.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

it interests me mamazee why abuse stands out for you. i know you want to explore that end of it.

when i see overweight children i also see overweight parents and i sigh. how do i get the knowledge about better nutrition across to them. how do i become an advocate fairy godmother and wave my wand and make some food companies disappear completely. like fast food. starting with the soda and the fruit juice industry.

so i never think of abuse even when i see huge children with not too overweight parents.

when i think of abuse i think of a small minority of people - kinda with munchausen.

i learnt a very interesting fact last night. they are trying to have a farms to forks festival in my city. and a newspaper reporter went over the statistics and discovered in spite of all the options available to us this city still consumes very little local food. i wonder if there is statistics on the sale of grocery - are we as a nation - the householders buying less fresh produce? are all the fresh produce being used by the tv dinner companies?

so i am wondering the abuse angle. how do you feel its abuse.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Well maybe "abuse" is a strong term, but a kind of abuse in some cases, yes. I have known people who never feed their kids fruits and vegetables, always feed them garbage, and who are educated and know better and have the money to do better - even who work in health fields so are very well educated. That seems like a choice to me, and a choice where you don't do what you need to do to keep your kids healthy is a kind of abuse or neglect.

I don't think "abuse" when I see an overweight child. I have particular people in mind when I think of this, and there aren't many, but I do think it's the case some of the time. We are the people who choose what our kids eat. If we feed them cookies when they should have something healthier because we don't want to bother discussing it or whatever, then that's on us. It's our responsibility.

I agree that people who aren't aware of nutrition and feed their children bad food but without the awareness of what they're doing might very well mean well and be doing the best they can. But there are people who do know better and just choose not to bother. The kids like cookies so they buy a lot of cookies because they like seeing the kids enjoy eating cookies. Being a parent means watching out for your kids' health to the level you're able to, and if you know having a large number of cookies is bad for them, and you aren't feeding them good food or bringing good food into the house and you are instead giving them tons of cookies, then you are making a bad choice that directly impacts their health.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> I have known people who never feed their kids fruits and vegetables, always feed them garbage, and who are educated and know better and have the money to do better - even who work in health fields so are very well educated.


Not everyone who works in healthcare is all that well educated about nutrition.

I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume that they really do want their children to be happy and healthy.

Also, you'd have to know someone super well -- I mean, hang out at their house all the time -- to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they *never* prepare fruits and vegetables for their kids. There are times when you could drop over to my house and think, "Wow, look at all that fresh produce! Those kids are so lucky" -- and times when you might think, "Those poor kids never have anything fresh; it's all frozen or out of a box or a can" -- but usually a couple of days after that tough time, my check has come through or we've gotten more food stamps, and we've been able to get more fresh stuff, though you might not drop back over and have a chance to see it.

I think the only parenting that any of us is qualified to evaluate is our own. I do agree with you that we have a responsibility to provide our children with the healthiest food and healthiest life that we can. I just don't see any value in speculating about whether other parents are abusive, unless we're talking about the most severe kinds of abuse and neglect.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

ok. i get ya.

so here's my story.

i used to nanny for a very well to do family when dd was 18 months old. nouveau riche. not used in judgement here. just pointing out.

took care of 3 year old twins. mom worked from home. was too overwhelmed. kids looked healthy.

yet the kids ate HORRIBLE food. stuff u and i would not feed our kids. in fact the mom would ask me why i didnt let dd eat with them but bring food from home.

one time i brought stuff her her kids (later realized big mistake). her dd made me cry when she said she had never eaten avocado before. REALLY?!!! this is fricking california for crying out loud.

anyways... the mom did not serve good food to the kids. she would point out the bread in teh fridge. she said this wonder bread is for the kids. dont give them that ezekiel bread because its too expensive. yet she would have no qualms going to target and spending five hundred bucks on a new wardrobe for the kids.

the kids were well dressed. they had great furniture. great toys. well let me say expensive. regular expensive vacations. the only area they were lacking is food. the parents chose quality. the children got bottom of the line stuff.

i never understood why. the dd would throw tantrums and get her candy. it was a hard place to work and i finally decided to quit.

but the kids werent fat. i cant imagine how healthy they would be.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> when i see overweight children i also see overweight parents and i sigh. how do i get the knowledge about better nutrition across to them.


Honestly, as a fat mother who was a fat child and now has a fat child, I might find your comments condescending depending on how they were presented. If you want to get the knowledge of better nutrition across to them, don't assume they don't know anything about good nutrition, and just strike up a conversation, maybe gives suggestions about how you get your kids to eat healthier. And realize that even though you feel like you have a vested interest, and you want to fix people, you can't take an overly simple approach because chances are, people already know more than you give them credit for.

Quote:


> but the kids werent fat. i cant imagine how healthy they would be.


So what I see you saying here is that you witnessed children being fed junk foods, and they were not fat. Yet they were unhealthy because they ate unhealthy, processed foods. This reinforces my belief: we can't know how healthy someone is by looking at their body size. We don't know the whole story. If it is unhealthy for a child to eat a certain way, we cannot continue to think that they have dodged a bullet by not becoming fat. This does a disservice to children who need to be fed healthier foods.

Back to Mamazee's question of whether there is abuse or neglect involved, I am sure in some cases there is abuse and neglect involved. There are many cases of abuse and neglect, and weight gain will not be the only symptom. You simply cannot extrapolate and say that because children are fat, there is usually abuse or neglect. I understand that many find fat bodies unnatural and repugnant, the product of a destructive lifestyle choice. We want to find a way to make everyone perfectly the same, to cure people of their affliction, but it just isn't going to happen.


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

I was listening to a scientist being interviewed on the radio recently about the role gut flora plays in weight. She described an experiment where two groups of rats were fed the same diet and had the same levels of activity. One group had optimal rat gut flora. The other group had had their gut flora changed by the scientists and a particular bacteria (or group of bacteria, I can't remember the details now) introduced. The group with the altered gut gained weight and became obese. The optimal flora group maintained a healthy weight.


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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

I'm one of the people who is just naturally thin. My mom raised me on good foods- then as a teenager, well, I think she gave up on me completely. Thanks to untreated depression and still-undiagnosed stomach disorders, my diet plunged. Soda, junk food, fast food, etc. The scale stayed the same. It wasn't until I got on depo that my weight changed. Even after pregnancy, I lost almost all the weight I'd gained very quickly and without any effort, and the only reason I wasn't in my old clothes was because my hips weren't back to normal. I still want to lose the weight from the depo- but, I admit, I have very little will power in that regard.

Fat people get SO MUCH CRAP for being fat. Every doctor's visit is a lecture on how they should be eating healthier and exercising more. I know overweight people who saw a nutritionist who told them that they're UNDERnourished, eating perfectly healthy foods, and still got a lecture on eating healthy. Doctors pull things out of their ass to try and blame overweight people for being fat. Fat people I know are *well* aware of how to eat right and exercise because they constantly get lectured on it by self-righteous snobs.

No one cares about how unhealthy skinny people can be, though. Overweight people who eat healthy, exercise, etc get lectured on their unhealthy lifestyle- me, who's basically sedentary, eats junk food, etc? Well, I'm skinny, so clearly I'm secretlyhealthy! (actually, I'm not, at all)

If people who condemn all fat people for being "unhealthy" really cared about health- why aren't they getting at me for being far unhealthier than most of the overweight people I know? Answer: Because it's not about making sure people are legitimately healthy. It's about feeling superior to others.

About half of overweight people are healthy and fit. The ones who are fat and fit aren't actually that much more prone to weight-related health problems than thin people. And they still get lectures about their health, despite being healthy, while unhealthy thin people are left to continue destroying our bodies. Weight stigma has nothing to do with the realities of health.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Viola*
> 
> Honestly, as a fat mother who was a fat child and now has a fat child, I might find your comments condescending depending on how they were presented. If you want to get the knowledge of better nutrition across to them, don't assume they don't know anything about good nutrition, and just strike up a conversation, maybe gives suggestions about how you get your kids to eat healthier. And realize that even though you feel like you have a vested interest, and you want to fix people, you can't take an overly simple approach because chances are, people already know more than you give them credit for.


Sorry Viola you are right. it does sound very condescending the way i presented the facts. i didnt give the whole picture. us too. a fat mom and a fat child. i volunteer with a nutrition program and i didnt give the real picture of why i find that family frustrating. they were downing supersize sodas and french fries and had what looked like two burgers each. so not only were they eating unhealthy but portion size too. however i made the assumption they eat like that regularly when perhaps it could be a lone incident.

i volunteer with an organization that is trying to bring change. they hire high school students to work on their farm. in their kitchen. and slowly these kids are developing a taste for veggies.

i perhaps come with a skewed view coz of the nutrition program i am involved with which focuses on poor nutrition (perhaps soda is the no. 1 worst culprit) and so it really gets me frustrated. i really dont blame the parents either. going through my own challenges i know how HARD it is to say no. to clean up your diet.

diet related obesity is not true for every fat person. eg. dd and me. and my friend who is waaay obese - over 300 pounds and has a lot of health issues. she eats even healthier than me and smaller portions. i know she has a medical reason for being so obese. yet i know another person who blames her for being so obese and views all fat people through the same lens.

yes you are absolutely right. you cannot take such a simple approach. there was a NYT article about the industries reaction to how food is presented to people. and most of teh top big companies didnt care what it did to people.

food today is an addiction. has become a drug. and the industry doesnt care (except for some like honest tea). THAT is what i find frustrating. you dont put candy in front of a child (of course there are exceptions) and dont expect them to go for it.

the main reason why i find this frustrating - food related obesity - coz the world is starting to adopt the american diet and its becoming an endemic problem. obesity is now a worldwide phenomena.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *katelove*
> 
> I was listening to a scientist being interviewed on the radio recently about the role gut flora plays in weight. She described an experiment where two groups of rats were fed the same diet and had the same levels of activity. One group had optimal rat gut flora. The other group had had their gut flora changed by the scientists and a particular bacteria (or group of bacteria, I can't remember the details now) introduced. The group with the altered gut gained weight and became obese. The optimal flora group maintained a healthy weight.


You raise an excellent point, gut flora being passed on at birth by birth. The state of one's gut flora will also impact the kind of food one craves(eg sugar and carbs), and in turn be caused by the food one eats (bad bacterica thriving on sugar and carbs)


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> anyways... the mom did not serve good food to the kids. she would point out the bread in teh fridge. she said this wonder bread is for the kids. dont give them that ezekiel bread because its too expensive. yet she would have no qualms going to target and spending five hundred bucks on a new wardrobe for the kids.
> 
> ...


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## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*


Trader Joes!! I love that place! Unfortunately they are not in the state of Colorado.







As far as groceries we have the options of Safeway, Kroger, Walmart, and Whole Foods (very expensive- we call it whole pay check). If everyone had access to Trader Joe's we'd all be healthier!


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KSLaura*
> 
> Trader Joes!! I love that place! Unfortunately they are not in the state of Colorado.
> 
> ...










Here too....and the ezekial bread there really is expensive...however, their eggs are affordable, $3.49 for 18eggs from free range hens.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sillysapling*
> 
> Fat people get SO MUCH CRAP for being fat. Every doctor's visit is a lecture on how they should be eating healthier and exercising more. I know overweight people who saw a nutritionist who told them that they're UNDERnourished, eating perfectly healthy foods, and still got a lecture on eating healthy. Doctors pull things out of their ass to try and blame overweight people for being fat. Fat people I know are *well* aware of how to eat right and exercise because they constantly get lectured on it by self-righteous snobs.
> 
> ...


Thank you for pointing out that "fat" and "unhealthy" are not the same thing. I am fat, I readily admit it. But all of the markers people use to judge health (blood pressure, cholesterol etc) are pretty good. Every time I see my doctor (regularly due to asthma) I get a lecture. And every time I point out that yes, I should loose weight. But seeing as it isn't impacting my health over much (at the moment -- I know this will probably change eventually), it really isn't all that high on my priority list. I do, however, make sure that me and my family eat mostly very health stuff. Too many meals out probably, but again that's a bow to our life's realities, not ignorance. One of my kids is overweight, the other underweight. And, as I detailed a few pages back, there are lots of factors contributing to that.

I worry that if people start seeing weight (either over or under) as an assumed case of neglect or abuse then LOTS of people will be pre-judged. And taking it to an extreme, what happens if this becomes "policy"? How many families get targeted that shouldn't be? To me, abuse/neglect is the sort of thing that one should consider calling child protective services about. I can't imagine how it would feel to be caught in that nightmare. Actually, unfortunately I CAN imagine it, which is why I shudder just to think of it. I guess I can see how people can judge that food choices make others "not the best parents". But "unfit parents"? Because to me, neglect or abuse means that the parents are unfit to continue being parents. But surely food is one of those areas where "freedom to parent as one sees fit" is important. After all, at the point where we start expanding what we call neglect/abuse to include things like food, what else do people get to call neglect/abuse? I can think of many things that are near and dear to many in the Mothering community that others would also term neglect/abuse. Seems like a very slippery slope to me and one that I think should be avoided. Much easier, IMHO, to just assume that the other parents are doing the best they can, there might be any number of reasons why they are overweight, and go on with my life.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

As a peds nurse I have seen that in these situations there is usually a combination of parental neglect and an underlying medical condition in the child. In many cultures food equals love, and food is associated with happiness. You get great pleasure seeing your kids eat something they enjoy- we can all associate with this.

I have had patients who were very very overweight who come in with an underlying condition. Sometimes it's as simple as asthma- the child doesn't feel well and doesn't exercise as much and sits around more. Is provided with video games and snacks. The larger weight makes the asthma problem worse-- less room to breathe, more effort needed to move around. I have seen hormonal problems cause obesity. I have seen Jr. High age kids who need cholesterol lowering drugs and have developed Type II Diabetes. And, I have seen kids who are so large they become a medical liability-- they are too large to safely operate on. No surgeon wants to touch them.

I have seen the families and friends of patients provide huge amounts of junk food to the hospital-- Gatorade is popular, chips and crackers, and loads of candy. The hospital orders a low fat or low carb diet and the families bring in junk food, bags of KFC and McD's. I don't know why. And at that point it does become neglect.


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## mamarhu (Sep 12, 2004)

For myself, weight is a matter of much more than just diet or exercise. I guess it is age-related hormonal changes. On my 50th birthday, I gained 50 lbs, stopped menstruating, and my metabolism suddenly changed. My diet and activity level have remained constant- I have never eaten much processed or fast foods, I live a moderately sedentary lifestyle. I spent the majority of my life thinking that I was especially noble; somehow my choices were better than others. That was why I was so thin and healthy. Now I have a huge belly - I can wear maternity pants! So I have had to rethink these judgmental attitudes, and learn a little humility. Who is to say that the fat lady in the supermarket knows less about nutrition than I? Maybe she is buying all those chips and soda pop for a one time special occasion.


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

http://www.shape.com/blogs/shape-your-life/toddler-weight-loss-surgery-not-likely-us. I deliberately chose a link that didn't show pictures of the actual child.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the explanation. There is a lot of poor nutrition out there, so I'm glad you are helping.


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