# "If you don't spank her now..." ** 2nd Update Post #48



## photochef (Aug 14, 2005)

My partner have an ongoing debate raging, I cannot, will not spank my baby when she: cries/screams out of frustration, swats at us (no contact) when she is upset.

My partner says that if we don't express that this is unacceptable now, it will become a habit, and she will become an out of control child. She related it to spanking a dog for peeing in the house, The dog doesn't know it is wrong, but by associating peein inside with a spank, they learn not to.

I told her that I cannot see the logic behind being angry with my child for not understanding why we cannot go outside, have to come inside, or I cannot let her play with the sharp object she desires. She said that "Well maybe its because she doesn't have the language to understand". Well duh, I thought. So I answered that when she is older and understands, she won't act the same. Which is when she told me that it could become a habit of throwing fits when she didn't get her way. I told her I still couldn't see how my baby would associate me hurting her, with her already feeling terrible (during a tantrum) and have it make any sense in her baby brain.

My partner is a natural lawyer and can argue anything and win, with just about anyone. I on the other hand, cannot argue my way out of a wet paper bag and would rather sit there and enjoy the humidity.

She is also not much for anything "feeling" or psycology-ish. A direct result of her being wickedly mistreated in her own childhood. She knows she was, but will she look at how it might have affected her? Heavens no!

Does anyone have some logical, unfluffy (you know what I mean, I hope) arguements as to why hitting her when she is having a disappointment/frustration tantrum is ineffective?

Please note, that she has other very redeeming traits as a parent, this is just an issue for us.

She said that when the child is older spanking is pointless because there are much better ways to teach them right from wrong, BECAUSE THEY CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT IS GOING ON.

I wish I could follow a logical train of thought... I'm one of the more intuitive parents...


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Tell her that going by that logic it is fine if you slug her every time she does something you don't like. Squeeze the toothpaste from the middle? Slug. Eat the last cookie? Punch. Accidentally wake you when you went to bed early? Slap.

doesn't sound very nice does it?

How about the elderly? Taking care of grandma who's not as with it as she used to be - going to slap her hands?

The whole idea that hitting SOME people (the smallest and most vulnerable














is okay is beyond absurd.

-Angela


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## Unconventional1 (Apr 3, 2006)

Did you look at the sticky's at the top of this forum- there are anti-spanking articles and resources there.

"My partner is a natural lawyer and can argue anything and win, with just about anyone. I on the other hand, cannot argue my way out of a wet paper bag and would rather sit there and enjoy the humidity."

I really like that- my DH is very good at arguing, I am not. It looks like you have a lot of good wit and humor though!

Good luck!


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## hedgewitch (Jan 24, 2008)

I guess the clearest argument for me is that humans learn by what is modeled not what we are told. For example, we know what the law's are but there is clear data indicating a causal link between neglectful upbringing (where these rules were not reinforced or indicated as important) and crime. If we all did what we were told because it is the rules we wouldn't need lawyers now would we?

We learn language by hearing our parents, we learn loving by being loved. To hit and say hitting is bad is not logical to me. There are more causal links between being hit and poor behaviour than the other way around. Quite frankly if one doesn't have the intelligence to outwit a child without spanking then one doesn't deserve to be listened to.

A great book is Becoming the Parent You Want to Be. Very good at exploring what kind of family you want to be and is written from the perspective of looking at *all* families not just mum dad and 2.4 kids (different ethnicities/genders/blended families etc). I highly recommend as it will help you and your partner sort out what you want your family to be.


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## Zach'smom (Nov 5, 2004)

If you don't like what your boss, mother, friend, etc. did do you hit them? Hitting people because you don't approve of what they did is just plain wrong.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Even if it were an acceptable way to train a dog, which is isn't, why on earth would she want you to treat your baby like a dog?


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Even if it were an acceptable way to train a dog, which is isn't, why on earth would she want you to treat your baby like a dog?

Seriously. That was my 1st thought as well. No hitting, unless it's self defense.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaCaveBear* 
Does anyone have some logical, unfluffy (you know what I mean, I hope) arguements as to why hitting her when she is having a disappointment/frustration tantrum is ineffective?

Because you love her and therefore you are willing to work with her patiently until she learns that violence is not the way to get what she wants. And that is also why you and she aren't going to be using violence with your dd when she has similar frustrations.

Oh, wait, you were talking about your dd in that paragraph, weren't you. Well, I still agree with other posters that pointing out that you don't hit your dp when she's cranky is a good way to approach things.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

What your partner is describing is simply behaviorism. (pavlov, skinner). I'd just say I'm not raising my kid in a Skinner box and be done with the argument.

Hitting is immoral. Hitting the weak and dependent is especially immoral. That's my argument and I'm sticking to it.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaCaveBear* 
She said that when the child is older spanking is pointless because there are much better ways to teach them right from wrong, BECAUSE THEY CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT IS GOING ON.

Spanking a child who is younger is pointless BECAUSE THEY CANNOT LINK THE SPANKING TO WHAT THEY HAVE DONE.

Discipline is teaching. What does spanking a child teach? Spanking teaches children it's OK for big people to hurt little people.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

There are a lot of ways to teach a child not to do something without hitting them. They range from the naturally occuring emotions that show in your body language, which is very powerful for an attached child, to logical consequences like leaving a fun place immediately when you have a tantrum. If you have a hard time expressing these things eloquently then read up a lot about them in parenting books so you have a lot to draw from when she gets the "what ifs."

Most people don't actually hit their dogs, they train them to pee outside using much gentler ways. If you hit a dog they tend to become aggressive and bite and even people who believe in hitting kids often don't believe in hitting or in any way hurting an animal. Get her an Attachment Parenting book and tell her that you don't care how she rationalizes hitting, it is not something that you will be doing to your child and if she is not willing to read the books and get in line with that then you should consider having her leave.


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## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

She wants to teach your dd that hitting someone is wrong by hitting _her_ and claims it's a logical argument?

Perhaps your dd would learn not to do things because she doesn't want to be hit. She'll also learn to fear the people she loves the most.

Honestly, is your partner so impatient that she can't redirect a small child until they are old enough to understand why something isn't a good idea? Does she have an understanding of child development? Because if she always wants a quick fix to everything, parenting is going to be very frustrating.

Children grow out of things quickly - they don't become "habit." But hitting and quick-fix parenting _does_ become habit. And that's a much bigger danger. Why shouldn't she start the habit of patience and creative parenting now?


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## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

For such a sad topic, this is one of the wittiest threads I've read in a long time. Honestly, as a not to brilliant debater myself, I would print out this entire thread and give it to your DP. And then print outs of the stickies at the top of this page.


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

I would actually not hit a dog for not being housebroken, either. My failure in training is not my dog's fault. If my husband wanted to spank there would be major issues. I don't really know what to tell you. I'm very sorry you're dealing with this! I don't see how hitting a person teaches them that hitting is wrong.


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

People model the behavior that they see. If there is certain behavior you want to prevent, don't model it. If she is spanked it will teach her it is ok to hit others, especially those most vulnerable, when they do something she doesn't like.

We don't smack our co-workers when they do something wrong, do we? No, we would get fired and arrested. And thats talking about another adult who can defend themselves. It is obviously not ok to smack them around. Why would it be ok to smack someone who is small, weak, and defenseless?

Its not ok to hit our spouses/partners, and it is not ok for them to hit us. It is not ok to hit anyone, ever, unless defending oneself. And your partner can not say that they were defending themselves from the baby. All you have to do is put the baby down when they do an undesirable behavior or hurt you. They learn really fast that if they want to be held they can not hit/bite/pull hair whatever.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

That's the kind of situation where I do the putting my foot down and ending the argument. We will not hit the baby. End of story. Sure, it might scare them enough to stop what they're doing, but the means don't justify the end.


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## rabbitmum (Jan 25, 2007)

Tell her that there are a bunch of countries out there where spanking is illegal, and our kids are ok. I was never spanked, my husband was never spanked (English, but with gentle parents), my kids were never spanked (and two of them are grown-up), and we all behave reasonably ok (we think).

"Tantrums" are normal and natural during a child's development. They can get really frustrated, and then they cry and scream, and sometimes hit their parents. It's not a big deal, they grow out of it.

I hate that word, "tantrums". It makes it sound like it's something a child does on purpose, bad behaviour, and something that has to be avoided and stopped. The word completely covers up the feelings behind the child's reaction, and transfers the focus to the behaviour.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I must say I'm a bit concerned at the fact that you say that your dp is trying to talk you into spanking "my baby" and not "our baby". Are you using "my baby" to emphasize how important this parenting issue is to you or does your dp not have a connection to your dd? I'm concerned because the mother's SO is so often the source of child abuse. Yes, I know it's generally boyfriends, but I'd bet those cases all started with the mom being told that she should be spanking or what have you.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
I must say I'm a bit concerned at the fact that you say that your dp is trying to talk you into spanking "my baby" and not "our baby". Are you using "my baby" to emphasize how important this parenting issue is to you or does your dp not have a connection to your dd? I'm concerned because the mother's SO is so often the source of child abuse. Yes, I know it's generally boyfriends, but I'd bet those cases all started with the mom being told that she should be spanking or what have you.

Thank you for saying what I was thinking.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I think that sympathizing with your child, and then moving on from the upset is a FAR more effective way to deal with fits and tantrums than punishing your child for it. I think that what would lead to more tantrums would be waiting for your child to get really, really upset, and then giving in to them. This would be teaching them that you will only listen to them when they get hysterical.

For anecdotal evidence, you can borrow my kids. I've never punished for a fit, and while I've slipped up and spanked occasionally, I don't think it has been enough to really affect their behavior. So, my five year old almost never "tantrums", my three year old has about two times this year, and my 15 month old does seven or eight times a day. At least. I just know he'll grow out of it, sans spanking.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

"If we don't spank her now...

_...she will know that we've always respected her."

..she will never have a reason to think that it's acceptable for her parents to hit her, and she'll be far less likely to think it's an acceptable way to problem solve."_


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## sunnymw (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:

Yelling, scolding, hitting, swatting, especially rubbing his nose in it(which is the worst), or getting upset at your dog or puppy only causes him to become fearful of you, and to be confused (usually both). This makes potty training much more difficult for both of you.

These tactics are the biggest contributors to problem dog behavior, (not just during puppy stages, but any stage and lasting an entire lifetime).

Real training causes your dog to learn, and a dog or puppy can't effectively learn if he's afraid and/or confused.
http://www.puppy-potty-training.com/...ning-dogs.html

So, it's been proven time and time again that that method DOES NOT work to potty train a dog (I've had two dogs... one done the "conventional" way who peed in my bed until he was 1, and one done the "gentle" way who peed on the floor for six months). If it doesn't work on a simple animal on a dog, why should it work for a human?


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## Miranda2r14 (Jan 20, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaCaveBear* 

My partner is a natural lawyer and can argue anything and win, with just about anyone. I on the other hand, cannot argue my way out of a wet paper bag and would rather sit there and enjoy the humidity.


OMG this is so me,







mama.


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## photochef (Aug 14, 2005)

Okay, the situation came up last night, where *our* daughter (I think the reason I said *my* was a little of both of the reasons brought up in a previous post, good insight btw







) was repeatedly annoying the dog in her kennel, and I was trying to get something out of the fridge. I told her to stop, to leave the puppy alone, and led her away several times trying to get her to help me with the fridge (which is usually more interesting than anything else, just not last night).

Then my partner said that this was the time to spank her, for not listening. I argued several of the points brought up in this thread (thanks y'all for some ammo) and she said that my reasons were crap, and that one day I was going to need her to really listen, and instead of doing what I told her she was going to (she made gesture of our daughter flipping me off) turn and run into the road and I was going to regret for the rest of my life not teaching her to do what she was told when she was tiny.

Of course the last thing I want is for my most beloved baby to be hurt through negligence in parenting, but once again I was stuck with nothing in my head to argue ... although I am sure a plethora of good points exist. So I took the baby to bed, and then my partner got paged, thus ending the argument for the evening.

I don't mean to take advantage, but does anyone have any other ideas?

Thank you all so very very much. The idea of hitting her makes me want to vomit.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaCaveBear* 
My partner says that if we don't express that this is unacceptable now, it will become a habit, and she will become an out of control child.

There are nonviolent ways to express that things are unacceptable.
If your dp insists on using behaviorism (which imo isn't an appropriate parenting style for kids, but...) she can do a loud "OUCH" every time she's swatted at, or whatever.
Hitting is a whole other ball game, and it's not good.

Quote:

She related it to spanking a dog for peeing in the house, The dog doesn't know it is wrong, but by associating peein inside with a spank, they learn not to.
I've never physically punished my dog for peeing in the house. I've never physically punished my dog for anything. She's quite potty trained now, thanks.

Quote:

I told her that I cannot see the logic behind being angry with my child for not understanding why we cannot go outside, have to come inside, or I cannot let her play with the sharp object she desires. She said that "Well maybe its because she doesn't have the language to understand". Well duh, I thought.
I've had someone use the same argument with me re: time outs. I seriously don't understand the logic of this one. So...they're not "smart" (not exactly the right word) enough to understand why she can't do x, but she's smart enough to figure out why she's being isolated/hit AND smart enough to figure out a way to change the action that got her in trouble in the first place.
I had great results with explaining stuff to ds since he was about 1yo. I don't know that he understood my words exactly, but I swear that explaining things to him helped.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaCaveBear* 
Okay, the situation came up last night, where *our* daughter (I think the reason I said *my* was a little of both of the reasons brought up in a previous post, good insight btw







) was repeatedly annoying the dog in her kennel, and I was trying to get something out of the fridge. I told her to stop, to leave the puppy alone, and led her away several times trying to get her to help me with the fridge (which is usually more interesting than anything else, just not last night).

Then my partner said that this was the time to spank her, for not listening. I argued several of the points brought up in this thread (thanks y'all for some ammo) and she said that my reasons were crap, and that one day I was going to need her to really listen, and instead of doing what I told her she was going to (she made gesture of our daughter flipping me off) turn and run into the road and I was going to regret for the rest of my life not teaching her to do what she was told when she was tiny.

Of course the last thing I want is for my most beloved baby to be hurt through negligence in parenting, but once again I was stuck with nothing in my head to argue ... although I am sure a plethora of good points exist. So I took the baby to bed, and then my partner got paged, thus ending the argument for the evening.

I don't mean to take advantage, but does anyone have any other ideas?

Thank you all so very very much. The idea of hitting her makes me want to vomit.









Okay- take a step back. Let's say this is a senile grandma we're talking about. Do you HIT her for the same thing? Never had anyone say that was a good idea.

So why is it okay to hit a BABY?

Hitting another human is NEVER OKAY. It's really that simple. If she hit you to get your attention and teach you to listen to her, that would be assault.

Hitting is just not okay. No further rationalization is needed.

-Angela


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

How about this- if your dd "listens" to you out of fear of being hit/punished, then what will compel her to listen to you when there isn't a fear of being hit?
Punishing, at best, gets kids to behave for self centered reasons. "Oh, I won't hit the dog because I don't want to get spanked." But that doesn't do anything to teach WHY she shouldn't hit the dog. It doesn't do anything to stop the kid when there isn't a threat of being hit. It doesn't lay the foundation for empathy and treating people right.
The biggest in my book, is that it doesn't teach that her actions affect other people. It teaches that her actions affect herself, and she should determine her actions by the reaction she will get.

I've hit my ds a couple times, but like Lynn, I can't imagine it was enough to shape his behavior at all.
My ds has never run into the road, and I've never punished for anything even remotely related. I tell him it's not safe to be too close to the road, I insist that he stay on the sidewalk, I held his hand when he was too young to be relied on, and even now I keep close to him (just because a 3.5 yo isn't 100% reliable.) I don't understand how spanking him for a tantrum would have made my life any easier. I can definitely see how it would have made my life harder. (not that being anti spanking is related to how easy my life is of course). My ds and I work together. He trusts me, and I'm certain that he's aware the I have reasons for my decisions. The more I cooperate with him, the more he cooperates with me.
Hitting your kids damages connection and makes parenting in the future HARDER. If you develop a trusting, "working with" relationship, and treat your kids with respect, they are more likely to be on your side and work with YOU.


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

Spanking will create fear in her. She will do what she is supposed to do/not do so she doesn't get spanked. Later in life she will learn to be sneaky and lie to avoid punishment. I was raised using fear based parenting. You don't want to hear about what kind of teen I turned out to be. I was very sneaky and secretive, I lied a lot. My parents HAD NO IDEA what was going on. Including me being molested by a friends uncle hundreds of times (I was threatened by him-he would kill me, my family, and friends if I said anything or not come back) . I had to keep everything from them for fear of punishment. I knew they would not be happy. Sure, they said to come to them if I am in trouble, but any time I did, I got into trouble. So I learned to be sneaky. I am happy to be alive today. I don't know how I am alive. Please, do not create fear in your little baby. You want them to be able to come to you when they are older. If you spank them for bugging the dog, tantruming, playing with the expensive china, not getting into the car seat when asked, etc, they will learn to do these things and others when not in your presence. It is nice when kids listen, and not tantrum, but its a huge trade off. Its easy to spank and instill fear. Thats the easy way to parent. Once that fear is there, it is extremely difficult to get that trust back. I will never spank my kids, I don't want them turning out like me. I want them to be able to trust me and come to me.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

It sounds like you're on the defensive and she's on the offensive. I win arguments with my dh by turning the tables and being on the offensive. It's a technique that is a must for our relationship. It used to be that he'd criticize something or argue something and I'd try to defend myself or my point or apologize. That would make him more aggressive with it. So, now I turn the tables and go on the offensive and try to make him defend himeself. That makes him stop quickly. I've gotten so good at it, I can make him apologize pretty quickly now.LOL

So, next time she starts in with the spanking, ask her to show you some literature and ask her to find a parenting class that you could take together that would support her views. Ask HER to explain herself and then disagree with all of her suggestions. That's what she's doing to you. She's got the easy job of sitting back and saying "no, that's crap". She's no natural lawyer, she's just got that offense technique down. It sounds like you'll have to figure out how to do it in this case.

You could also go looking for a good parenting class such as love and logic or something. I'm sure there are good classes somewhere near you.

Now, normally, I think it's wrong to turn the tables on people, but really, in some partnerships, it's necessary so that one person doesn't feel bullied.

Good luck
Lisa


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## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

Honestly, this issue would be a deal breaker for me in a relationship. It's not okay to hit children. Period. Not up for debate.

Your partner seems more interested in being right than in listening, as far as I can tell. She's also making an idiotic assumption that hitting would work because she says it would, with no evidence to back it up.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Dr. Sears had a great thing to say about the danger situation thing in his Discipline Book. It was basically that the natural fear response actually works just as well if not better. Also, what kind of moron is going to allow a child who is to young to understand the dangers of running in the street to be all alone in the first place. If phrased like that I doubt that your partner will say that she is. My dd is five and has yet to run out into the street and has never even seen someone flipping another person off so I really doubt she will do it all of a sudden. When there is a time when you really need your child to listen your tone and body language tell the child that you need them to listen whether you are violent with them or not.

Most children don't mirror disrespectful behavior at this age anyways, it comes later and hitting your kids is not going to protect them or make them stop. For some kids, I was one of them, it makes them want to escape you even more and it drives them into dangerous situations rather than protecting them from the dangerous situations.


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## photochef (Aug 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
.

Hitting is just not okay. No further rationalization is needed.

-Angela

I love your passion, thank you!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
How about this- if your dd "listens" to you out of fear of being hit/punished, then what will compel her to listen to you when there isn't a fear of being hit?
Punishing, at best, gets kids to behave for self centered reasons. "Oh, I won't hit the dog because I don't want to get spanked." But that doesn't do anything to teach WHY she shouldn't hit the dog. It doesn't do anything to stop the kid when there isn't a threat of being hit. It doesn't lay the foundation for empathy and treating people right.
The biggest in my book, is that it doesn't teach that her actions affect other people. It teaches that her actions affect herself, and she should determine her actions by the reaction she will get.

Hitting your kids damages connection and makes parenting in the future HARDER. If you develop a trusting, "working with" relationship, and treat your kids with respect, they are more likely to be on your side and work with YOU.

Good good good points, you know I am in the field of Social Work, and I just remembered sitting in class 10 + years ago being taught that *the most effective tool you have is your relationship with someone*. Inside I know that, because I work with families all the time, but sometimes a re-statement of the obvious is necessary.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GooeyRN* 
Spanking will create fear in her. She will do what she is supposed to do/not do so she doesn't get spanked. .

Ya, very true.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisa49* 
It sounds like you're on the defensive and she's on the offensive. I win arguments with my dh by turning the tables and being on the offensive. It's a technique that is a must for our relationship. It used to be that he'd criticize something or argue something and I'd try to defend myself or my point or apologize. That would make him more aggressive with it. So, now I turn the tables and go on the offensive and try to make him defend himeself. That makes him stop quickly. I've gotten so good at it, I can make him apologize pretty quickly now.LOL

So, next time she starts in with the spanking, ask her to show you some literature and ask her to find a parenting class that you could take together that would support her views. Ask HER to explain herself and then disagree with all of her suggestions. That's what she's doing to you. She's got the easy job of sitting back and saying "no, that's crap". She's no natural lawyer, she's just got that offense technique down. It sounds like you'll have to figure out how to do it in this case.

You could also go looking for a good parenting class such as love and logic or something. I'm sure there are good classes somewhere near you.

Now, normally, I think it's wrong to turn the tables on people, but really, in some partnerships, it's necessary so that one person doesn't feel bullied.

Good luck
Lisa


Lisa, you could not be more right. I am not a very manipulative person, so I cannot see when someone is using a 'tactic' on me. I cannot tell you how my heart lit up as the accuracy of your observation hit me. It is bullying, and I know she does it a lot. I just don't realize it.

Love you guys, and thank you.


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *odenata* 
Honestly, this issue would be a deal breaker for me in a relationship. It's not okay to hit children. Period. Not up for debate.

Your partner seems more interested in being right than in listening, as far as I can tell. She's also making an idiotic assumption that hitting would work because she says it would, with no evidence to back it up.

Yep, hate to agree and basically say "leave her." But hitting kids is never okay.

Your daughter wasn't annoying the puppy on purpose, for goodness sakes! What's more fun than a wiggly little animal to ineract with? Why punish a kid for being curious about a dog in the first place? What's the problem? Is the puppy loud and irritating? Wow, what a great squeak toy! Why not just move the kennel or leave the room if it's bugging everyone? Or is it that your partner said "No" and the toddler refused to comply?


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## llamalluv (Aug 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaCaveBear* 

Then my partner said that this was the time to spank her, for not listening. I argued several of the points brought up in this thread (thanks y'all for some ammo) and she said that my reasons were crap, and that one day I was going to need her to really listen, and instead of doing what I told her she was going to (she made gesture of our daughter flipping me off) turn and run into the road and I was going to regret for the rest of my life not teaching her to do what she was told when she was tiny.









My mother DID spank me, and I flipped her off regularly! (That was the reason for several of my spankings!) Spankings just never worked on my sister and I. They hurt, but only for a minute, and then we were free to do whatever it was we wanted until the next spanking. We viewed a spanking as the "admission price" to being little hellions.

And lest anyone think that I believe that spanking worked, I turned out okay, but my two years younger sister is currently living in a shed in her MIL's backyard - she never learned self-control, only doing the bare minimum in order to avoid pain.


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## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thixle* 
Yep, hate to agree and basically say "leave her." But hitting kids is never okay.

Your daughter wasn't annoying the puppy on purpose, for goodness sakes! What's more fun than a wiggly little animal to ineract with? Why punish a kid for being curious about a dog in the first place? What's the problem? Is the puppy loud and irritating? Wow, what a great squeak toy! Why not just move the kennel or leave the room if it's bugging everyone? Or is it that your partner said "No" and the toddler refused to comply?









Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting she leave her partner, but let it be known that this issue really isn't up for debate and the seriousness of it for her. Perhaps I say that because I can't imagine someone feeling so strongly that hitting a child is the right thing to do that they wouldn't drop it.

I made sure before I married my DH that we were on the same page about things like this. I wouldn't have married him otherwise - I suppose that's really what I meant about it being a deal breaker for me. Once you already have a child together, it's more complicated, for sure.

I think the post about putting the OP's partner on the defensive was right on.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *odenata* 
Honestly, this issue would be a deal breaker for me in a relationship. It's not okay to hit children. Period. Not up for debate.

Your partner seems more interested in being right than in listening, as far as I can tell. She's also making an idiotic assumption that hitting would work because she says it would, with no evidence to back it up.

And this would be an excellent thing to say to her. Yeah, she'll get offended and angry, but if she thinks about it she may calm down and be more reasonable. And if she doesn't calm down and become more reasonable--I don't think that you'd actually be happy with her in the long run.

Because it sounds like she's going to be blaming YOU for anything your dd does, like she's going to hit your (all these yours are plural by the way, thank you for clarifying that your dp is your dd's parent that's a relief) dd when she's watching her.

I just don't see any respect from her. She's in favor of hitting animals, and none of the pro-spanking people I know would ever hit an animal (yeah, I've pointed out the inconsistency in that to them, they've also never hit or threatened to hit their children in front of me). She dismisses your feelings as "crap".

How does she treat waiters? Also, you mentioned that she's a really good parent in other ways, is this the only topic where she dismisses your feelings?

Anyway, I guess I'm a bit hung up on the dog-spanking thing since the one person I know who ever tried "training" a dog by hitting now makes a habit of lying to his mother about things his sister did/said in an effort to hurt his mother and sister's relationship.


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## Twinklefae (Dec 13, 2006)

I think you need to discuss something with your partner. Do you want your DD to "Do what she's told" or do you want her to LEARN WHAT IS RIGHT? Because personally, I want my DS to learn to do what is right because it is right, not because he's scared of me. It's not right to hit people. Any people, any time.

I want my DS to grow up to be a thinking, problem solving person. He can't do that if all I've taught him is to "do what he's told". Because then he'll just be waiting to be told something, which is going to increase his likelihood of getting in with the "wrong crowd", because they will tell him what to do. I want him to have more problem solving skills than hitting, so that I don't get a call from his school when he's a teen saying that he's been in a fight. I want to teach him how to avoid the fight in the first place. I want him to make friends with people who will value him. In order to be friends with those people he will need social skills that are best taught through modelling.

That's why I don't hit my child.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *odenata* 
Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting she leave her partner, but let it be known that this issue really isn't up for debate and the seriousness of it for her. Perhaps I say that because *I can't imagine someone feeling so strongly that hitting a child is the right thing to do that they wouldn't drop it.*

I made sure before I married my DH that we were on the same page about things like this. I wouldn't have married him otherwise - I suppose that's really what I meant about it being a deal breaker for me. Once you already have a child together, it's more complicated, for sure.

I think the post about putting the OP's partner on the defensive was right on.










i agree with this completely. i had the exact same thought about the part i bolded- she seems a little too eager to be smacking a one year old.
sounds like she has serious unresolved control issues from her own childhood. OP- i would be looking into some relationship counseling. her arguments are just so disrespectful to all the relationships involved on so many levels.


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## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
sounds like she has serious *unresolved control issues* from her own childhood. OP- i would be looking into some relationship counseling. her arguments are just so disrespectful to all the relationships involved on so many levels.

It really does sound like she wants to _control_ more than she wants to _teach_, and that needs some further examination, for sure.


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## Raw Vegan Mama (Jan 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *odenata* 
It really does sound like she wants to _control_ more than she wants to _teach_, and that needs some further examination, for sure.

VERY good point.


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## aurora_skys (Apr 1, 2008)

well you could always just remind her that spanking a dog is the most ineffective form of potty training and you just end up with a hand-shy dog that hides when it has to potty (like behind the couch etc. the concept of "I am spanking you bc you went here instead of here is just way to abstract for a dog to comprehend). Just consistently praise the good stuff and try to let the "bad" behavior fall by the wayside. Kids want to please us, so just focus on when she does things you want her to. It will get better. Spanking just makes parents feel better bc they vented their frustration, and now all their negative feelings rest on the kids shoulders. Its so unfair the the kids who have to deal with it


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## Blueena (Apr 3, 2007)

A simple non fluffy answer is because if you spank a child who is upset/having a tantrum you are just going to make it worse.

And yes, once language catches up, frustration goes down and its up to parents to be patient and help the kids learn to use their words, not their hands.

Also, what you need to do is to tell your partner, "I AM NOT GOING TO SPANK THE BABY EVER, IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN SO GET OVER IT, THIS IS NO LONGER UP FOR DISCUSSION", period. My dh was on the fence about spanking, he was like, no biggie and I made the decision, he was a bit irritated that I made this blanket decision but I didn't really care and now 4 1/2 years after our ds was born, he says he couldn't imagine every laying a hand ona child and is super against spanking, but it took that push to get him there.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Here's what concerns me....it sounds like you are having trouble getting your partner to listen to your needs and wants here.

You should not have to argue for this any more than you would argue about breastfeeding or responding to her cries.

If you are arguing about it, I'm wondering what else is going on. How is your communication generally? Do you feel like your partner respects your opinions and ideas? Is she generally open to what you have to say?

Or is the spanking question one thing in a larger picture?


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

One point I haven't seen mentioned is that 1 year olds don't have any impulse control at all. Neither do two year olds. Their frontal lobes haven't developed enough, so they can't reason. They can explore cause and effect, and most "misbehavior" is exploration at this age. A one year old doesn't know hitting you hurts. It's all 'what happens when I do this'. All primates learn by modeling behavior they see. So when a toddler hits, stroking the toddlers hand softly and saying "gentle, touch gentle" will teach the child appropriate touch.
On a personal note my 2.5 year old DD went through a hitting phase when she was younger. We just used modeling gentle behavior and saying 'oww that hurts'. We recently visited a family member who has a 18 month old. The little girl was very jealous and screamed and hit and tried to bite a few times while they were playing. My DD would gently touch the angry little girl on the head and ask her " are you ok?"and then offer her toys. It was nice to see my DD modeling the gentle reaction to hitting with the younger child. Also, at 2.5 my DD doesn't really have much impulse control yet either. You don't have to be mean or violent to teach someone that something is wrong, you just have to show them the right way.
If your DP will read something, The Science of Parenting by Margot Sunderland is based on over 700 research studies done over 30 years. The paperback version published in the UK is "What Every Parent Needs to Know: The Incredible Effects of Love, Nurture and Play on Your Child's Development (Paperback)" . The book goes into detail on the neurological reactions and long term effects of harsh parenting. It's the best logical, evidenced based argument for nurturing, compassionate, attentive parenting. If your DP won't read it, you could and then you would have plenty of information to back up your parenting choices. Spanking has been linked to antisocial behavior and even lowered IQ, along with substance abuse and a whole list of negative adult issues. Basically you are refusing to damage your child.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

OK -- a couple of questions that might help people figure out how to frame information for you. First, is this child both of yours or is this a child that is "yours"? I.e. is your partner a "girl friend" or a co-parent. If she's a girlfriend, then I think you have the right to say "she's my child, she will not be hit, end of discussion". If this is a co-parent, then you have a bigger challenge.

I would suggest taking it back to a more basic conversation about discipline and expectations of a child. Will she read something? One of the more straightforward discipline books I've found that works well for those that fundamentally believe that "parents should be in charge" is "Kid Cooperation". Its short, directly addresses why spanking doesn't work and gives lots of practical suggestions for alternatives. Maybe she fears that "no spanking" means "no discipline" -- a mistake that lots of people make and that is easily refuted if you can present "I won't spank but here is what I think we SHOULD do".


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

There is good scientific evidence as to the harmful effects of spanking. (I'll post a bit below.) I would tell her this:

"When you can present me with _sound, scientific_ evidence that spanking is _more effective_ than what I'm doing for discipline, then we can talk. Until then, I'm done debating this." (Remember it takes two to debate!)

That will effectively put the ball in her court.

I would also recommend either taking a parenting class together or counseling. If you are going to be raising this child together, you need to at least be able to discuss discipline rationally without having one or both of you go on the defensive.

Just a bit of evidence (I have a lot of other citations) about the harmful effects of spanking:

Gershoff, Elizabeth Thompson (2002). Corporal punishment by parents and associated child behaviors and experiences: A meta-analytic and theoretical review. Psychological Bulletin. Vol 128(4) Jul 2002, 539-579.

Summary of introduction: Parental use of physical punishment is associated with higher levels of immediate compliance, higher levels of aggression, lower levels of moral internalization and worse mental health. In addition, spanking can lead to anti-social behavior, and it teaches children it's acceptable to inflict pain on others.


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## sunnymw (Feb 28, 2007)

Just to over-simplify...
_
This is just HYPOTHETICAL, I would never leave my child alone in a room with a dog







_

GD: Baby bothers dog, mom tells baby to stop, redirects, and explains time and time again WHY to leave dog alone ("Don't touch, dog could HURT you.") When she's in a room alone with dog, she's more likely to remember that dog could HURT her, and leave her alone.

Spanking: Baby bothers dog. Parent says no, don't touch, and spanks baby. This happens repeatedly. One day, parent leaves room, and baby sees this as an opportunity to bother dog without fear of consequence. Dog bites/scratches/mauls child. Whoops.

Sure, parent could spank and THEN explain "dog could hurt", but after the spanking has happened, the child is in no mental state to learn new information. The "it would hurt" part doesn't stick... just the "touching dog = spanking" part.


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## photochef (Aug 14, 2005)

I just wanted to say that this stuff is awesome! You all are my favorite parenting resource....EVER.

I will investigate the books/articles mentioned.

We had another debate tonight, whereupon I stuck to my decision that I will NOT be hitting the baby. I did get her to agree that it makes no sense to hit a child instead of teaching them what to do...otherwise where does that leave the child?? Wow, I made a point, a real one, and she listened...I think it was a first. (G*D bless you all)

I asked her if hitting a child works, then her brother -in-law who I have seen KICK his 4-year old (nasty man) would have very compliant little children - but they are not, they are hellions (obviously not the fault of the kids). No answer.

So she told me that I have been letting our baby run amok and have not been teaching her anything. She said that if I didn't want to spank, then I had better come up with something else that works (Hey, we're on the same side, sort of). I agree that I could have been working more with the baby on ways to let me know what she wants instead of screaming, and on listening to me when I explain things to her (right now she doesn't pay a lot of attention, maybe I can work with her on looking at me when I talk or something, I will peruse this forum more).

So anyway, I have finally stood my ground on something, probably the first time on a topic that really mattered. And she is actually not mad tonight like she usually is after a fight.








to MDC and all its collective wisdom.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

mamacavebear..good for you for setting the standard! I think the next thing you need to do is get her to understand child development. It is totally unfair to a child to expect them to perform/behave in a certain way that is not even developmentally possible. A child may scream for what she wants at 1 abecause she doesn't know how to talk yet. At two she may still scream because she doesn't have enough words. At three she may still scream because she doesn't understand why she can't have what she wants when she wants. Kids will scream and do all sorts of kid-things.

I tell my friends that you can spend 3 years teaching don't touch, slapping hands, time-outing an on and on and when the child is three or four they finally learn some impulse control and can resist temptation a little bit.

Or you can redirect, help explore safely, trade, babyproof, put things up high and at around age three or four they finally learn some impulse control and can resist temptation a bit.

That right there is the choice.

So start looking for resourses that talks about the level of understanding a child has at a given age and go from there.

Good luck! You are off to a great start!


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I agree with allgirls though too. The single biggest parenting issue ("mistake" if you will) is unrealistic expectations.

Do some research on developmentally appropriate behavior at different ages. A 1 yr old doesn't "listen" like an older child does. And even if they DO, they can not be expected to have the impulse control to NOT do the things that are not allowed.

-Angela


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 
So start looking for resourses that talks about the level of understanding a child has at a given age and go from there.









:

It sounds like your partner doesn't have a great sense of child development, and may not understand what's age appropriate. One book that I like for that is a book called "Parenting with Purpose" by Linda Madison - I like it precisely because it talks about what 1, 2, 3 and 4 year olds do that is perfectly on track and reminds parents that your child is not repeatedly whacking the dog to drive you nuts, but because that's how they learn cause and effect. (Disclaimer: Parenting with Purpose is a bit more coercive than a lot of parents here like. But it's a great first step into the ideas of developmentally appropriate discipline.)

But anything you can do to improve your (collective y'all's) understanding of child development will help make you better parents.

The other thing that's very telling is that she doesn't see what you're doing as "discipline". That's very common, I think, among people who were raised in punitive households. They don't see redirection as 'discipline'. You might think about giving a little play-by-play for your dd (OK in reality for your partner) about what you're doing and why, or explaining to her at other times what your thinking is.


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## riversong (Aug 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaCaveBear* 

So anyway, I have finally stood my ground on something, probably the first time on a topic that really mattered. And she is actually not mad tonight like she usually is after a fight.

That's great! It sounds like you will work through this together. Just keep standing your ground and explaining things to your dp. I agree that some articles or a book on child development would be a good idea.

My ds is older than your dd (he's 17 mo) and I can't imagine getting him to pay attention while I explain something to him! He doesn't have the attention span or interest for an explanation. He's not much of a screamer, but dd was and still has screaming/crying tantrums. They don't happen often, but when they do, I just remind myself that this is how she works through her feelings sometimes.


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

Its a good start! I agree your partner has to learn what normal behavior is for each age group. Its unfair to expect a kid to conform to behavior that is not yet developmentally appropriate, or still lack impulse control.

Its kind of funny to watch my 2 year old. She now understands when I ask her not to do something. She tries so hard to listen sometimes. Its almost like I can see the little devil on her shoulder egging her on to do something I asked her not to do. The little angel usually wins now. But a year ago it was rare the little angel would win. She had no impulse control. It would have done no good to spank her. She is now gaining impulse control. The older she gets, the more understanding and control she has. A 1 year old doesn't put 1 and 1 together to realize the dog will bite if you pull its tail. A 2 year old is starting to get it a little. A 3 year old will understand and have control not to do it. But you still can't completely trust the 3 year old not to do it. Thats normal. Spanking won't fix that. Your partner has to learn stuff like that.


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## mamamelia (Apr 14, 2005)

i haven't read through any of the responses but i do agree with your partners words (only) when she said:

Quote:

My partner says that if we don't express that this is unacceptable now, it will become a habit
i believe that you should never let a child develop a habit that you will not tolerate the 2nd or 10th time. it is unfair to be inconsistent with a child when it comes to teaching them the rules as to what they can and can't do in various situations. e.g child climbs the edge of the couch and jumps off. don't smile and go on your merry way if the second time she does it your going to clip her on the ear and scold her because you just won't have it happening in your home. smile and go on your merry way only if your going to smile and go on your merry way *each and every time* that she jumps of the edge of the couch. it is completely unfair to the child to scold them on the second occassion, as they had the "go ahead" the first time it happened and therefore think it is ok to do again.
that said, no way in hell should you ever discipline by hitting. your partner said if you don't spank her now, she'll never learn.... and if you DO spank her now.... she'll learn that hitting another person when you are angry with them is completely acceptable. not only that, she will feel like a punching bag AND would not have learnt the lesson as to *why* she should not do what she was in the first place.

so yes, please do stop your child from doing something you won't tolerate the first time, before it can become a consistent problem.. BUT do it gently - re-directing, gentle talk and if needed, a gentle but CONSISTENT "no" everytime the "offence" is repeated.
also, depending on the childs age, bear in mind that the child will repeat the offence anywhere from 1-1000 times even with gentle re-direction (and even with spanking as kids have little impulse control).. but at least you can sleep at night knowing that your child is slowly learning the rules in a gentle AND consistent fashion and that itself will bring about good "discipline" results in the years to come.


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## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaCaveBear* 
We had another debate tonight, whereupon I stuck to my decision that I will NOT be hitting the baby. I did get her to agree that it makes no sense to hit a child instead of teaching them what to do...otherwise where does that leave the child?? Wow, I made a point, a real one, and she listened...I think it was a first. (G*D bless you all)

That's great!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaCaveBear* 
So she told me that I have been letting our baby run amok and have not been teaching her anything. She said that if I didn't want to spank, then I had better come up with something else that works (Hey, we're on the same side, sort of). I agree that I could have been working more with the baby on ways to let me know what she wants instead of screaming, and on listening to me when I explain things to her (right now she doesn't pay a lot of attention, maybe I can work with her on looking at me when I talk or something, I will peruse this forum more).

Can I ask why it's all up to you? Why she isn't teaching her daughter things as well? You're both the parents, right?

I would highly recommend doing signing with your baby to help her communicate. It really was helpful for us. And I also ditto what several other posters have said about learning about child development and age appropriate behavior. I think Dr. Sear's Baby Book has already been mentioned, but he has a great chart in there on child development and a good guide of what can _realistically_ be expected from children, from a child development point of view.


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## mamamelia (Apr 14, 2005)

oh by the way i wasn't saying this to *you* the OP (as you already know that spanking is not the solution), but rather what you could say to your partner... that you are on her side when it comes to not wanting to create future behaivour issues but that you can do it successfully by being gentle and consistent.

good on you for being your daughter's advocate!!


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## SophieAnn (Jun 26, 2007)

I have only one thing to add - you've gotten great advice here, and sounds like you're getting somewhere with your partner.

At 1 year old, it isn't developmentally appropriate to expect her to listen. Mostly because she has a very limited understanding of what you're saying. She has only been hearing language (without the muffled barriers of fluid/womb) for 1 year so she still has a lot to learn before she'll really be able to understand what you're saying.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *odenata* 
Can I ask why it's all up to you? Why she isn't teaching her daughter things as well? You're both the parents, right?

Is she getting pressure from her family (like the horrible BIL) to be a certain way? Is she afraid to admit that she doesn't know what she's doing? Is she scared that she's going to perpetuate the abuse she received as a child?


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaCaveBear* 
...I agree that I could have been working more with the *baby* on ways to let me know what she wants instead of screaming, and on listening to me when I explain things to her (right now she doesn't pay a lot of attention...


I bolded the word 'baby' above, because your daughter is exactly that. A baby. Crying to let you know that they need something and not paying attention to your explaining are what babies do.

I applaud the progress you've made. Next, I think you and your partner need to focus on what's developmentally appropriate for a child the age of your 12 month old or I fear that your new common understanding is doomed to fail.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaCaveBear* 

*So she told me that I have been letting our baby run amok and have not been teaching her anything. She said that if I didn't want to spank, then I had better come up with something else that works (Hey, we're on the same side, sort of). I agree that I could have been working more with the baby on ways to let me know what she wants instead of screaming, and on listening to me when I explain things to her (right now she doesn't pay a lot of attention, maybe I can work with her on looking at me when I talk or something, I will peruse this forum more).*

So anyway, I have finally stood my ground on something, probably the first time on a topic that really mattered. And she is actually not mad tonight like she usually is after a fight.








to MDC and all its collective wisdom.

way to go on standing your ground!

i bolded this part of your post because i'm curious as to what your partner thinks is proof that you've taught dd something? of course, it's always good to self check and go 'hmmm am i really paying attention here or am i not really engaging with dd?' every so often.

but i worry that your dp thinks there is some demonstrable *thing* that will prove that "your" GD is working. if that is the case i think your dp is missing the long term goal of GD- a person who will learn self control vs. someone who is/must be controlled by others. ftr- i was spanked and punished as a kid and it did nothing to teach me self-control. i have to think about it daily from chocolate to shopping to flipping out over something dumb.

also as previous posters have said your dp needs to understand what are realistic expectations for a 1 year old, 2 year old, etc... it is totally unrealistic to think your daughter will listen and understand exactly what you are asking her to do. at 1 and probably up to at least age 4 the best we can do is control situations, control environments and control ourselves.

she should be contributing to parenting your daughter. what does she feel her contribution is to dd? is she feeling left out on some level? is she a hard ass, balls to the wall person and that's what she envisioned her role to be? (it's kind of like that with me. i can be kind of type A







))

i'm so lucky that my dh is 100% on board with GD. it's totally been me that's had to analyze my own preconceived notions of discipline /expectations. it is really really hard to go there emotionally. it's brought up a lot of stuff for me so i hope i'm not projecting onto your dp- but i see this common theme among parents who are so resistant to GD and it is control. i had to let go of this notion that 1) i could control my child and 2) that i should want to control my child. i'm not trying to beat a dead horse here but once i *got* that my ds is his own person not a being to be controlled by me as an extension of me it helped me step back and analyze why i'm so bothered by some of the stuff that he does. it is because i'm so uncomfortable with not being in control. but, ultimately, you can only control yourself. (and doesn't slapping hands, spanking and yelling just seem so lazy, weak, and out of control? hmm)

my ds is only 8 months, btw!








but it's been a very busy, vocal, demanding 8 months. i've never learned so much or felt so much frustration in my life! i figured i better get to practicing GD early because it really doesn't come naturally to me. i've had to go back and work on myself to a point where i'm not acting out my frustrations w/ my son. not trying to hijack here but it really is a process to challenge these ingrained notions about what our parenting role is.

re; outside pressure as a pp mentioned-i think it's so so much harder if there is outside pressure from non GD parents or childless friends to have your kid behave a certain way. i limit my interaction w/ friends and family who have a more punitive idea of discipline. they were just sucking the life out of me instead of inspiring me to learn a new way and EVOLVE.

sorry this post is so long...

i wish you both luck and definitely read the stickies- A Cry for Connection is a great one to start with.


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