# Parallels between baby makin' and baby birthin'



## tinyshoes (Mar 6, 2002)

I was tempted to place this thread in the "homebirth" forum, but I ultimately chose to post here, because I do believe that empowered birth can happen anywhere (it just so happens to commonly occur at home--mw attended or UC!)

Sometimes, when I think about birth, and natrual births and medically-managed birth, I can't help but think of allusions to sex, and the many different ways sex can transpire...and how these activites--birth, sex--involve the same sacred body parts, and could/should be respected in the same sacred way.

(I always kinda liked what Ina May Gaskin had to say on the subject--the same sexy love that gets the baby in gets the baby out--as Ina May is an advocate of makin' out to faciliate labor progression.)

I think about the mamas who truly needed c-sections. They remind me of the mamas who truly needed clinically-assisted reproduction techniques to achieve pregnancy.

I think about the mamas who have had mediocre/crappy first birth experiences, and I think about many women's first times with sex, in a car, in a hurry, with a dopey boyfriend, etc.

I think about the mamas who have had terrible birth experiences, and the parallels this experience would have with the intrusion of rape or horrible sexual experiences.

And I think about how we all understand that different sexual experiences are different, and a rape survivor can also have awesome lovemaking with a caring partner.....but I think many people don't understand how this type of thinking could relate to _BIRTH._

Even though it's our crotch, different stuff, *better* stuff, can happen with it!

A Pit-induced hosptial labor with nurses coming in every hour doing vaginal exams is like sex with the dopey highschool boyfriend--_BIRTH_ can be better than that! Birth _is_ better than that!!! *That* is _why_ these crazy homebirthers don't need drugs. Homebirthers _aren't_ women with superhuman pain tolerance levels--they're just not getting jerked around during their births, which makes things more pleasant!

A neccessary c-section is a wonderful, sacred gift--just like the wonderful, sacred gift of pregnancy for the couple who has yearned, but has not been able to achieve pregnancy without clinical assistance.

But most people can get pregnant naturally. Given the proper elements (mood lighting, love, calmness, comfort with partner, right day in the cycle, etc.) any given (hetero! LOL) couple will achieve pregnancy natually. I believe, given the proper elements, a woman can experience a natural birth with a healthy outcome for mother and baby.

I think of the Classic Hosptial Birth--show up, change into hosptial gown, meet L&D RN, labor slows, meet on-call OB, get Pit drip to initiate labor, agonize in hospital bed with Pit IV, toco and fetal monitors belted across belly, gritting teeth to try for a natural labor, 'failing' and just 'having' to get the epidural, experiencing a few vag exams, and making it to 10 cms, and pushPUSH*PUSH*PUSH*PUSH 'til that baby crowns, a snip in the crotch is cut (if you like episiotomy in your Classic Hosptial Birth scenario--leave out if you're progressive) and then mamas think

THIS IS WHAT BIRTH FEELS LIKE

They think the natural/homebirthers are crazy, because they _choose_ it--without *drugs.*

But that's NOT what natural/homebirthers are choosing. Instead of "doing it" in the car with a first-time puppy-love yet dopey boyfriend, they're doin' it with their life partner of X years, and it's loving, sacred, safe, calm. They're doing it without drugs..._both_ the pain meds, and the Pit that could make any woman holler 'uncle.'

Maybe, if we had babies as often as we experience the conditions required to make them, we'd all have broader perspective when it comes to possible birth experiences.

I don't have a question or goal with sharing this idea, beyond the possibilty of inspiring my fellow MDC mamas to share their own insights on this topic. I always appriciate hearing other mamas' insights, experiences, and ideas!


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:

But most people can get pregnant naturally. Given the proper elements (mood lighting, love, calmness, comfort with partner, right day in the cycle, etc.) any given (hetero! LOL) couple will achieve pregnancy natually.
You're kidding me, right?


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Clearly wannabe is pointing out that as mamas who've never experienced c-sections or infertility, we need to be careful what we say and how we say it, but barring that, I'd like to comment on the OP.









Just after I gave birth this last time, I was thinking about what birth is like, what birth feels like (emotionally) and I was wondering why anyone would want to not feel it. When we opt for the epidural, what exactly are we anesthetizing ourselves to? There are people though - lots of people - who anesthetize themselves to the way that they feel ALL the time.

My upstairs neighbor for instance is a whirlwind of different artificial scents. Her laundry reeks of petroleum-based cleansers and softeners, she has one of those little air fresheners in her car, and she herself leaves behind the scent of Tammy-Faye-having-exploded every time she passes through the hallway. And it begs the question - does she ever smell anything that isn't manufactured? Why all the nose-blockers? What's the need? Must be that the dirty, stinky, musky odor of everyday life is too much.

But think about it - a lot of people in this country don't want to smell, feel or experience anything too raw or real. They want it compartmentalized and pre-packaged - we get our adventure at theme parks, we package up our dead and dying, our food comes pre-processed looking nothing like its origins, our interactions are reduced to 1s and 0s or hi-fi, fiber optic connections - we do very little that's real. To get outside, we "pack up the jet skis and go up to the mountains" - it's all prepackaged, pre-ordained, ordered, compartmentalized. We try very hard to avoid too much reality at all costs. I mean, crikey - look at our "reality" programming on TV!!! Argh!

So when mainstream America thinks of having babies, they think of little packaged babies smelling of powder, all clean and all bright, being handed over from the doctor/nurse. That's the money shot of childbirth in all of our entertainment - that moment when the mother is sitting up in bed and is handed her little "bundle of joy", all wrapped and diapered and clean.

Someone this summer who was newly pregnant wanted to smell my baby, who was all of 5 weeks old at the time. She said she loved the smell of babies. She came and sniffed his head and wrinkled up her nose, confused. He didn't smell like a baby. I had to explain that we don't use baby powder or disposable diapers and he drinks breastmilk, so instead of smelling like a nursery, he smells like a human. Personally, I love his smell. I love breastmilk-breath. I love the smell of his head, his little pheromones. I still sniff my 3yo's head. They smell like mine.

There is a disconnect somewhere between baby and pregnancy/birth in this culture. It's handled, it's manufactured, it's artificial. There's no ritual for getting the mother from here to there, and it's not talked about except in the terms and the language of the hospital. In order to get an experience out of it that is not handled by somebody else, you have to do a whole lotta thinking. You have to navigate it all yourself. That's not right. There need to be rituals for this. Our rituals do not suffice. Our rituals do not honor the mother or the baby. Our rituals if anything, torture mothers and babies.

Women are not birthing in this country, they are being delivered. Just as there is someone who takes away our waste, treats and bottles our water, and freshens our air, there is someone to deliver us to motherhood in the most brutal manner imaginable. Who would not want to anesthetize themselves to that? The whole process requires that we dull our senses because there's no way being delivered feels like the impossible transformation birth really is and deserves to be.

When we birth, we are bigger than ourselves. We are the beginning of the universe, the start of time and there is no way that the beginning of the universe is a clean, quiet ordeal. The beginning of the universe is an explosion, it is a swirling mass of cosmos. Our hormones, the blood, the poop, the mucous, the grunting, moaning sounds that we make, the gush of fluids, the stretching wide of flesh, bone against bone - it's incredible, raw, messy stuff. I think the beginning of life deserves that. Life is like that - it's a spiraling rush of energy in a perpetual forward motion, and damn if we don't constantly make messes of it.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Yep, there are a lot of parallels. Same hormones used in both processes, and under adverse circumstances those hormones won't get released in ideal amounts and at the right times, if at all. In sex and conception, the effects of this can range from discomfort to conception not occuring at all. In birth they can range from discomfort to myriad life-threatening complications.

But just as in sex, there are exceptions to the "rule". Some women can get pregnant and give birth easily under the most adverse of conditions. I always think of this story I read on the internet about a mama who was planning a homebirth but for some reason felt the need to transfer to the hospital -- it was in fact perceived as enough of an emergency that an ambulance was called. In the midst of the bright lights on her, strange people around her, and siren blaring, her body completed the process on its own. And not only that, but she had an _orgasm_ as the baby was emerging. Her body was resilient to a degree that most aren't.

Anyway, I was actually just thinking the other day about how in many cultures sometimes for generations upon generations sex has been thought of as an inherently unpleasant experience for the woman (except for the occassional whore of course.) In our culture we don't think that, but we do think so about birth. It's a mass delusion, just as it was/is a mass delusion for peoples to believe that sex was inherently hard and painful for the woman. That's not to say that we don't actually experience it as such. Just that a mass experience of something as one way does not make it the natural default.

There are a lot of women now coming and out and claiming that birth doesn't have to be this awful experience. By the mainstream they are seen as the aberrant exception (just as the woman who enjoys sex has at times been the aberrant exception.) Theories abound (and it's worth questioning who they ultimately serve) but there is really no evidence that this is about more than what is environmentally created.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

anna- I have always loved the way you put things.


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## Mamajamz (Oct 31, 2002)

Wow.

******************

Within these thoughts...things I think about a lot....in the beauty and majesty and sacredness of birth...within this wonderful context....where is the midwife? Some would say "Yes, exactly my point and that is why we have chosen UC" For those who prefer birthing with a midwife, and for those of us who feel a calling to that path...to expand the parallels...I think you have hit on a significant question for me as I travel down this road....birth is a sacred act between the co-creators of this new life...I ask myself how this union accomodates another person, a relationship that *can* also have very powerful, earth-moving connections, the midwife-woman relationship. OH how this relationship, I believe, also mirrors our relationship with ourselves and with other women. How much of our inner sanctum do we share with our sisters...can we be primal and strong and vulnerable all at once. It opens the sometimes forgotten chasms in our souls from our own mothers that were either full with living water or dry as a bone. I attend births and see some women wrapped up in the love of their life partners. If all is well, they are really birthing their own baby alone and we just protect the space. Other mothers look deeply into the eyes of the midwive or other woman present and join in another kind of sacred bond that has existed as long as we have. It's a different kind of alchemy between these women, but can be equally intense and beautiful.
Perhaps the parallel here is of our own births. When we birth, if birth happens in an atmosphere conducive to spiritual and psychological awareness, it becomes not only an act as sacred as conception, but also as deeply powerful as our own entrances into the world. When we birth our babies we birth our selves. I have yet to understand the depth of meaning that has become part of my own personal journey since birthing my children. What a rich thread.

********************************
Again, WOW.


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

Anna, I got goosebumps reading your post. Raw and messy. Just like sex. Yes, indeed.


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## MamaTaraX (Oct 5, 2004)

What a great post! I only wish I had time to comment more. Since I only have a seocnd I will say that with my 2nd birth, I really wanted that birthgasm. Almost got it too. My DH asked me later because he thought I did. *almost* I was pretty close. He tells me I sound liek I'm having sex when I give birth. That makes me smile. Maybe I'll get my birthgasm in January. On that note, I gotta jet. I'm sure I'll be back though. Whata great post! I was honestly just thinking about this same thing this morning!!

Namaste, Tara
mama to Doodle (7), Butterfly (2), and Rythm (due at home 1/06)


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## KittyKat (Nov 17, 2002)

Sing it sisters!

I am loving all of this so much!

(Especially after the trauma of my last birth... and what it was *supposed* to be.)

Kathryn


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## Belleweather (Nov 11, 2004)

Quote:

But most people can get pregnant naturally. Given the proper elements (mood lighting, love, calmness, comfort with partner, right day in the cycle, etc.) any given (hetero! LOL) couple will achieve pregnancy natually. I believe, given the proper elements, a woman can experience a natural birth with a healthy outcome for mother and baby.










No. Just no.

My husband and I would NOT have achieved pregnancy naturally. Lighting, relaxation, love, calmness, and the correct day in my cycle do not overcome a physical problem. I understand what you're trying to say, but please understand as well that writing something like that is a very painful slap in the face to anyone who is dealing with infertility or pregnant after infertility.

I don't believe for a moment, however, that the fact that it took medical intervention to concieve this baby (as well as a ton of non-western intervention in the form of TCM and acupuncture to help him 'stick') means that I am incapable of birthing naturally and safely and without a similar amount of medical help. Just because my husband and I needed assistence to begin the process doesn't mean that we need help finishing it.

By your logic, we should have decided that our pregnancy was inherently high risk because of the effort and expense that it took to achieve it, and immediately booked ourselves into a OB practice that was used to dealing with such things for a scheduled induction/section at a hospital with a level III NICU. And there are a lot of couples who concieve through ART who DO that, because they believe that how they concieve somehow implies how they should birth.

But I don't think trusting birth has to have anything to do with trusting sexuality as a means to reproduction. And I think it's especially important for people who have been through infertility and gotten all the messages that come with that that their bodies are broken and wrong and somehow lesser than other women's bodies to be able to focus on pregnancy and birth as something that their bodies CAN do, and can do RIGHT.

Not only that, but I think that conception and the starting of a family is just as sacred when it takes place in a doctor's office as it is when it takes place in someone's bedroom. After all, isn't it the spark of a new life that is the common ground here, not the 'bumping uglies' part?


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## Mamajamz (Oct 31, 2002)

Oh let us all be so cautious to read each post carefully to understand the context, the meaning and the spirit of the post. It is so important to recognize and acknowledge the one small word or given context of what is said that changes the meaning completely.








We owe this much to ourselves in this wonderful forum of freedom and support.


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## tinyshoes (Mar 6, 2002)

To both Belleweather and wannabe, I have the utmost respect for couples (any gender!) who wish to become pregnant or have children, who have discovered a physical impediment to textbook man-lady sexual reproduction, and choose to explore assisted reproductive techniques or adopt children.

That does not make the desire to have children, the moment of conception of the child (whether concieved in vitro, in another woman in town, or halfway around the world, last week, or 13 years ago), or the resulting child and family any less special, wonderous, or amazing and imporant as a textbook man-lady in vivo fertilization scenario.

I do assert, however, that most people do get pregnant "naturally." Most men and women have sex and the woman becomes impregnated (if there's no birth control, duh.) This generic assertion is true, if you account for ALL adults of the world (let's say people over 14 and under 90) that grouping will include fertile people, infirtile people, post-menopausal people, gay people straight people, abstainers, polygimsts, sterilzed people, birth control users--and it's obvious that someone's gettin' someone pregnant, because within that vast population, there are enough men and women and eggs and sperm that will join up, naturally.

And because so many humans on earth do get pregnant naturally, I assert that so many humans can get un-pregnant naturally.

It is a minority of people who are in a lesbian/gay relationship that wish to have a child and choose assisted reproduction techniques to have their babies.

It is a minority of people who, by age, bad luck, radiation treatments--whatever type of heartache you choose--who will benefit from the wonders of assisted reproduction techniques to achieve their pregnancies.

Likewise, even though the USA boasts a 28% c-section rate, that means that 72% of the babies born yesterday did so thru mom's vagina. That _is_ more natural than a c-section (*not* _BETTER_...I merely illustrate the fact a vaginal birth is not surgical [unless an episiotomy is cut...why do I have to cover so much of my a$$ here at mdc, my mamas?!?!]) and what percentage of those 72% did so without gross interventions?

The naughtiest hospitals have about an 80% epidural rate, which is probably also a reflection of their Pitocin augmentation rate, so if 80% of those 72% have medicinal interventions, there's still about 14% of our vaginal-birthing mamas doing so without drugs.

Quote:

By your logic, we should have decided that our pregnancy was inherently high risk because of the effort and expense that it took to achieve it, and immediately booked ourselves into a OB practice that was used to dealing with such things for a scheduled induction/section at a hospital with a level III NICU. And there are a lot of couples who concieve through ART who DO that, because they believe that how they concieve somehow implies how they should birth.
Belleweather, I do not mean to suggest that the way a baby is concieved should follow through with an "equal" birthing experience. For example, a rape victim should not birth the child of the rape under heinous circumstances.

I just meant to draw a parallel between:
Some people need assistance to get pregnant, and get unpregnant.

Some people love getting pregnant, and getting unpregnant.

Some people don't like getting pregnant, and don't like getting unpregnant.

Mix'n'match these various groups of folks to your heart's content! I know the first time I liked getting pregnant, but didn't like getting unpregnant so much. The next time I liked getting pregnant less than the first time (epsisiotomy scar) and liked getting unpregnant. Right now I'd really not want to become pregnant, but I would look forward to getting unpregnant (and I could only tell you after the birth if I liked it or not.)

Anyway, I just wished to respond to this specific concern, since Belleweather and wannabe seemed offended, and I certainly did not intend offense; indeed, it would seem we are on the same page, with reverance for conception--assisted or otherwise--and repsect and acknowledgement of the heartache of infertility/related issues (i.e., I wish to include gay couples wishing pregnancy.)

* * *

I am so excited and impressed by the various ideas expressed on this thread--birth is always such a cool topic, and I love thinking about it, talking about it, all parts about it. I am enjoying reading and pondering these thoughtful posts!


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

I think this is a very interesting often overlooked aspect of birthing. The saying "don't try to have a baby anywhere you wouldn't feel comfortable having sex" is very true- I mean imagine the quality of a sexual experience in a cold, sterile, unfamiliar environment where anyone could walk in any minute asking you questions or even as op said "in a car with a dopey boyfriend" who is unemotional and views sex in a very mechanical way and has no experience with the energy of it, say in a secluded spot but knowing a cop could pull up any minute as opposed to being at home listening to music, feeling comfortable locked in your bedroom with some candles or whatever floats your boat with a partner who respects your body and feels and acknowledges the sacred energy of the experience. To me this is very much like the typical hospital birth vs. homebirth. I would much rather have sex and birth at home for these reasons.


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Great, now we're unnatural.

Please think before you speak, and consider how incredibly hurtful it is to imply, let alone flat out SAY that relaxing gets people pregnant, that assisted conception isn't natural,









Sex is sex and conception is conception, and the two have nothing to do with each other 99% of the time.


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## Mamajamz (Oct 31, 2002)

Tinyshoes: I am so sorry your beautiful post got de-railed. I realize I am having a bad day today so everything bugs me, but I personally am uke of all the arguing I see so much of the time about everything around here. It's true, you have to explain and cover your a$$ and then cover it again, and then hope beyond hope that somehow someone understood something of what you are trying to say in spite of something you might have said in some sentence somewhere. I have a few too many stinging memories of baring my soul on threads here and getting flamed for God knows what. Oops. I said "God". Did I offend someone?
Gotta take a break. I'm outta here.


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamajamz*
I personally am uke of all the arguing I see so much of the time about everything around here. It's true, you have to explain and cover your a$$ and then cover it again, and then hope beyond hope that somehow someone understood something of what you are trying to say in spite of something you might have said in some sentence somewhere.









:

I get what you're saying. Discussing conception and sex and "naturalness" thereof is entirely missing the point of a very beautiful post.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

It's not a beautiful post. The OP derailed herself with the entirely unnecessary assertion that most women can get pregnant naturally- which is neither true nor relevant- and that offended me. It's like having an elephant in the middle of the sitting room, obstructing everyone's view and smelling funny- are you meant to be polite and pretend that it's not there?
To give the background on this, I'm on my seventh pregnancy. Five of which were unplanned, one of which was the product of rape and one of which ended in a premature stillbirth after I was raped. I have also chosen to end pregnancy for my own reasons.Therefore, please don't offend me or others by assuming that because I found that comment offensive, I've btdt- I am blessed with fertility, for which I am grateful.
Other than that, though, I do get where you're trying to go with this. As I said before, I don't think it's a parallel- they are like, but not the same. They're both places where you're the most yourself you can be, where you render yourself completely open and vulnerable to yourself, your partner and your child. Sometimes people choose to shut off during birth and not be fully present- sometimes people do this during sex too, and think of someone else and hope it's all over. That's a choice they made, and it's a conscious one.


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## kerikadi (Nov 22, 2001)

Tinyshoes -
I'd just like to say that I appreciate your post, it definitley got me thinking. I understand what you are trying to say and the spirit in which I believe it was said.

Blessings,
Keri


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kerikadi*
Tinyshoes -
I'd just like to say that I appreciate your post, it definitley got me thinking. I understand what you are trying to say and the spirit in which I believe it was said.

Blessings,
Keri









:


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## MamaTaraX (Oct 5, 2004)

Quote:

The saying "don't try to have a baby anywhere you wouldn't feel comfortable having sex" is very true- I mean imagine the quality of a sexual experience in a cold, sterile, unfamiliar environment where anyone could walk in any minute
I dunno, I like risky sex like that. Thrill of it all. I also had a completely wonderful hospital birth with DS#1, so maybe there *is* some kind of correlation.

I'm sad to see the spirit of this post being overshadowed by the sadness of infertility. The sheer population of this planet is pure testiment to the fact that the majority of people get pregnant and give birth all inthe same sentence, all with generally few interferences/complications. INfertility is very real, very sad, but it's also the minority. I think that isall that was trying to be said by the OP. Looking solely at that one point is completely overlooking what thewhole post is about! It's about how babies (usually) get in the belly and how they (should) come out. Having sex and having a vaginal birth are alike in so many ways and we,collectively, overlook or undermind that constantly. It's really sad. I was at a birth yesterday and was pleased to hear the nurse talking to the mom about the sensualness and ecstacy of birth (all without saying outright that "it's just like sex!"). I saw a dr. say something about it a month or so ago. Some people really do remember, even inhospitals, that birth and sex correlate. (for the record, the nurse and dr. I mention are older people)

I still think this is an awesome post and I hope more people continue to comment on it in the spirit in which it was intended. My heart goes out to anyone facing any of the things mentioned in the OP that are touchy or emotional for them. Keep the love flowin' ladies!!

Namaste, Tara
mama to Doodle (7), Butterfly (2), and Rythm (due at home 1/06)


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## tinyshoes (Mar 6, 2002)




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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flapjack*
It's not a beautiful post. The OP derailed herself with the entirely unnecessary assertion that most women can get pregnant naturally- which is neither true nor relevant- and that offended me.

I want to acknowledge your feelings and personal experiences here...but it is factually accurate to say that most (which is to say, a majority, in the technical meaning of the term) women can get pregnant without medical intervention. I really don't think that tinyshoes was implying that women who do need/choose medical intervention were "unnatural"--merely that for most people (which, again, is not all) conception is not a medical event but for most people birth IS...but that it needn't be. I also find her statement to be quite relevant to her post. Take a look at media images for example: most media images of conception involve two people having sex (Ross and Rachel on Friends, for instance). Most media images of birth involve a woman screaming in a hospital bed, a baby behind a glass nursery wall, and a doctor (Friends, again). There is a cultural assumption that (in most/many--but not all--cases) "babies just happen" but no corresponding cultural assumption that birth can "just happen".


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

Tinyshoes

I like your thought on the development of our sexual encounters with the possible development of our labours and births.

Each of my births has been different in different ways and if I am honest with myself, one of the reasons why I would like to have another person in our family is that I can once again bring my new self to that birth experience the same way that I have done over the years in my 'babymakin'.

I feel that there are parallels too in the process; some elements of yearning, concentration, effort and a final sharing of calm.

Conception and birth are both magical whichever way you do it. How do we grow people from a speckle? It amazes me every time.


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## indie (Jun 16, 2003)

That's a great post annakiss. You should turn it into an article and publish it.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

and the moment the baby finally is out....that to me, is the most powerful release and magical moment. completely ecstatic. i didn't *get* to experience those intense sensations/emotions w/my first birth (medicated, hospital, etc). it wasn't until my second birth when i finally realized what i'd missed. what empowerment.

thanks for a thought-provoking thread......


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## KittyKat (Nov 17, 2002)

Sorry your thread got de-railed.

For what it's worth I "get" what you are trying to say, and I don't think you said anything untrue or "insensitive."

You should not have to "walk on eggshells" here, and I am glad you posted these thoughts.

Kathryn


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## orangebird (Jun 30, 2002)

I agree, I'm sad this beautiful topic got so derailed. Most women can concieve naturally. It's just a fact, not meant to hurt anyone. Just as most babies can be born naturally. Not all can and in those cases I think we all agree we are grateful for the technologies.

Quote:

Please think before you speak, and consider how incredibly hurtful it is to imply, let alone flat out SAY that relaxing gets people pregnant, that assisted conception isn't natural,
And sorry if it is offensive but using reproductive technologies _is_ unnatural. But who cares! It doesn't make the child any less special or the parents any less parents. That wasn't the point.

I do hope to hear more comments on this topic (the original one).


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

UGH! The first comment was thoughtless, but these follow ons are outrageous!!! Whatever happened to "oh, whoops, yes, of course sex does not always equal baby, sorry!"

And before you write this POV off as "bitter dried up infertile, no wonder she couldn't conceive, she's too uptight", I did conceive by sex, but thoughtless (or downright horrible in Mara's case) comments like these cut to the heart of every infertile woman you make them to. And you don't ever know that the woman you're speaking to isn't infertile, so please be more mindful in future.

Quote:

And sorry if it is offensive but using reproductive technologies is unnatural. But who cares!

















Way to go, Mara! You win the smug fertile award for this month!

I am going to walk away now, truly disgusted that you could be so downright cruel and insensitive to the 17% of women who experience infertility.

I truly do hope you don't experience secondary infertility - how badly would your self-image suffer if you had to be "unnatural" in order to be a mother.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Thank you for this thread.









It has really made me think about the connection between making baby and birthing baby.

As I reflect on my three children....it is AMAZING to me the similarities in the making/birthing. I can not truly explain what I am thinking.....but it is amazing.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

What an interesting thread!

I was just thinking about this the other day while waiting for my husband to come home.









I'm hoping to start trying to get pregnant soon, sometime in the next year, and I really really want a home birth with a midwife there for the just-in-case situations.

I'd most likely want to birth on our bed, where we most likely will conceive.

We'll want low lights and music, just as we like for sex.

I'll want a clean house during the birth, just as I want for.... nah, not that uptight.







But, I do think most clearly when my home is uncluttered and clean.

I'll want to fall asleep with bliss in my heart after the birth, just as it is after sex.

Is there that "glorious exhaustion" after birth, Mommas?

There are so many connections between the two acts, thank you so much for bringing it up.

I just finished reading "Immaculate Deception" and I read Spritual Midwifery years ago, so, I've been thinking along these lines for a while now.


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## Mama to 4 (Jun 1, 2005)

Beautiful post, OP, and Annakiss you made me cry!

Hugs to all, from a Mama who has

Had hospital scissors birth-rape
Had Infertility treatments
Had a C-Section
Gotten pregnant naturally planned
Gotten pregnant naturally unplanned
Had a homebirth with a midwife

and now am 41 weeks pregnant planning our first U/C!

I have been in alot of different shoes...and can say that none of the original post nor any of the gorgeous sentiments thereafter offended me in any way!

Sorry about the de-railing, love the thread












































hopefully i will be having my glory of birth any @#[email protected]#$ing time now........being overdue is so hard!! (but thats probably rude to people with preemies) you cant win.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe*
Whatever happened to "oh, whoops, yes, of course sex does not always equal baby, sorry!"

But, that's not what the OP was saying. She said, most of the time, sex can = baby without medical help, and most of the time, birth can = baby without medical help, and wondering why most people get the former, but not the latter. I don't see why she had to apologize for something she didn't say?


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## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

Wow...from the resident infertile mod - let's all take a step back. A big one.

I am the first one on the board usually to defend/stand up for/make more visible the struggles with fertility so many of us go through.

I think we could all benefit from asking first for clarification, then discuss. Don't jump first, ask later. That doesn't serve anyone at all.

Now then - I see the offense at being told your pregnancy is unnatural - it has connotations that your child is unnatural. And that is hurtful and awful to hear. My conception has element of the unnatural, yes, I will grant that - as my eggs would never be out of my body and in a petri dish in a lab.







But truthfully, eggs and sperm found each other and did their jobs and resulted in embryos. So that is pretty natural. And even if I had used ICSI to conceive - everything after that is nature dictated...so again pretty natural.

I think it is just being a touch more tender when referring to infertility...
Over the course of my 3 year journey, I have been told the following:

"relax, if youjust relax you will get pregnant"
"maybe this is g-d's way of telling you something"
"go on vacation, that will work"
"stop trying, then you will get pregnant."
"just adopt, so and so got pregnant right after they adopted"

Now, if I told someone with cancer...
"relax, then the cancer will go away."
or
"just don't think about it and you will get better."

Y'all would have some NASTY things to say about me.









Infertility is a medical problem...being told to relax and you will get pregnant is irrational and ridiculous. I am not sure that anything negative was meant by the OPs comment, but it was a touch shortsighted, and could be hurtful, especially to those of us who have had their feelings and struggles invalidated - or outright ignored.

So be gentle, pause for a moment and think. I am certainly not saying to walk on eggshells, or have to seriously censor yourself, but take a moment, and try and see life from my point of view.

This baby, who will arrive in April - certainly not unnatural.







There was assitance getting him (I am guessing baby is a him) in me, but he isn't unnatural.









Truthfully, I try, as an infertile woman, to educate, to share, to show people that an infertile woman is not so many things that they assume she is. Sometimes, I succeed. Sometimes, I tell people to go suck a lemon.







It is a hard road to travel...and frankly, the hormones and mood swings that happened while I was trying to get pregnant...make pregnant mood swings and hormones look like a walk in the park.









Everyone treat each other gently, listen, discuss. Don't assume, don't attack, try to put the best face on something the first time around. Sometimes people just don't know, or just don't know how to express it.


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## KittyKat (Nov 17, 2002)

Quote:

Is there that "glorious exhaustion" after birth, Mommas?
I think it depends on the woman and the labor. I've had actually a "birth rush" or birth high after giving birth, where I felt on top of the world. Not energetic like wanting to jump up and do cartwheels, but not quite the sleepy dreamy afterglow feeling either. There's definitely similarities! And after the birth high wears off, there's most certainly plenty of sleeping to be done.

Oh yeah, and I often feel quite hungry after giving birth. Not sure I'd be hungry enough to eat the placenta... but still, really hungry!

Kathryn


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## be11ydancer (Dec 2, 2003)

I'm waiting to experience the actual real feelings of birth. I'm about to have my third and still don't know what it's like to have my water break on its own or feel what a real, live contraction is like. I've had very vivid dreams about it. I didn't know as much about birth when I had my first and opted for all the fun stuff like induction, epidural, episiotomy, etc. My second, I knew I wanted a natural birth but still just hadn't done enough of my own research. She was breech and I had a c-section (ouch). This little girl who is due in February is my hope for some kind of natural and normal birth. I can hardly wait, I'm so thrilled at the prospect of experiencing birth and it's total messiness, tenderness, and pleasure. I feel like I've missed out on something very sacred so far. It's taken a long time to process my feelings about that but that's a whole other post for a rainy day.









And I agree with what the p.p. said, as well as what annakiss said. I love posts like that. So true and well thought out. It's exactly the kind of thing I've been wanting to hear lately.


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## Marlet (Sep 9, 2004)

I can see the offensiveness of the OP's statement. I have not had infertility problems and I do not know anyone IRL (I have met Adina but I don't KNOW her, kwim?







) who has either. However, when I read that Is topped reading and thought to myself, "Wow, what a blanket statement". I'm sure the OP did not mean to offend however blanket statements have that effect often. It's like saying all fat people are lazy or all blondes are dumb. Those who have weight issues will get riled up and blondes will get defensive. I do think we should try and keep it all in persepective though. The OP was talking about the correlation to sex and birth. My mom took fertility drugs (had a hard time ovulating....so I guess I do know someone) and had medically managed births.....not because she's a huge fan of medicine and what not but because they (meaning hopistal personall etc.) were already there! She was there for her fertility drugs. She had time to build a rapport with the doctors and nurses and staff. She trusted them so why not let them take care of her during pregnancy to make sure everything went as planned. Which ended up in her using them as her birthing "partners" (I say partners because they were there with her just as your birthing partner would be if you were at home). The correlation there is strong in my opinion. I don't think the OP was trying to say that babies concieved with help are unnatural but I do think she was trying to draw the line to all the dots. MOST women do get pregnant without assitance. It's a sad reality but the OP did not say that ALL women do. Therefore she should deserve some leeway there. Had she said any and all women can get pregnant naturally I could understand the heating up a bit more. Like Adina has said though let's all take a step back and make sure things are clarified first.

That being said I think the sex and the birth are similar. At first I didn't see the paralell. After reading the first sex experience in the car thing though it hit home. I had a horribly sterotypical first time. In car on Valentine's Day with my first serious boyfriend. My birth I feel was sterotypical too. I stayed home as long as possible under the "illusion" I could do it by myself. I freaked and went in for pain killer. The doctors were there to "save" me while my nervous husband stood by doing nothing. Sure enough the baby was having a hard time coming out so a little snip there and wha la! There's a baby...oh wait! This newborn is having issues coming from sea to dryland so off to the nursery she will go while mom gets some much deserved rest.














I do feel there is a connection. I think this because of the sterotypicalness of it all and because of my thought patterns. Both with sex and birth I had this lingering thought that I would naturally know what to do. It would be a piece of cake and my body would just know. As with every first you need some preparation. Yes I knew a little about the mechanics of it all but I didn't do any of the soul searching and the deep learning I feel was neccessary.

Beautiful and thought provoking post.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OtherMother'n'Madre*
It's like saying all fat people are lazy or all blondes are dumb. Those who have weight issues will get riled up and blondes will get defensive.

I really think people are misinterpreting the OP. It's not like saying "all fat people are lazy" b/c the OP DIDN'T say "all people can conceive by having sex". She said that most people DO conceive that way--and if the stat quoted earlier (17% of women have infertility problems), then it IS true that "most" conceive without medical intervention (83%). She also wasn't just repeating a stereotype (like "fat people are lazy"), but a biological fact. Most people conceive without intervention. To say that isn't, I think, meant to put down people who can't or diminish their struggle--in the same way that saying, "Most people in relationships are in heterosexual relationships" doesn't, I think, mean to ignore/diminish/put down gay men and lesbians--there simply ARE more people in heterosexual relationships. That doesn't mean EVERYONE is or that people who aren't are "bad" or "wrong".

I think the stickiness is coming from the natural vs. unnatural terminology, which I agree was a poor choice of words--but I think she was really making a distinction between "without medical/outside intervention" and "with medical/outside intervention" and wondering why the stats of birth (if we're going with 83/17%) didn't more closely correlate with the stats of conception. I think nearly everyone at MDC will agree that medical interventions at birth are used WAY more than necessary and often lead to problems.

I interpreted the comment about "relaxing" not as "if you just relax, you'll get pregnant", but more about the intimate, gentle, relaxing mood two people can create when they conceive a baby--and suggesting that it's too bad that more people don't work to create the same kind of mood when they have their babies, however the baby was conceived.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I would also point out that what might be "natural" to some isn't to others







Birthing practices are very cultural, rather than biological. I don't think that there is such a thing as "natural" birth.

Slightly OT, but in this week's Newsweek, there is actually a mother who wrote in to the editor admonishing women who want to become pregnant to, you guessed it, RELAX.

Gotta run....kiddies are home


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

I think part of the problem is that the OP misspoke (miswrote?) and put something in a way that implied something that she didn't mean to imply. She wrote: "Given the proper elements (mood lighting, love, calmness, comfort with partner, right day in the cycle, etc.) any given (hetero! LOL) couple will achieve pregnancy natually." Read literally, that means, "all couples can achieve pregnancy naturally." Yes, that's wrong. Clearly, though, that's not what she meant, because just before she had written "...most people can get pregnant naturally." _Most_, not all. (Which is true.) And just before that, "A neccessary c-section is a wonderful, sacred gift--just like the wonderful, sacred gift of pregnancy for the couple who has yearned, but has not been able to achieve pregnancy without clinical assistance."

Please, consider intent and context. She's not dissing anyone for being infertile, or saying "if you "infertile" people would only just get it on with some mood lighting you'd have your baby already!" She's saying that for those who _can_ achieve pregnancy without clinical assistance, the approach to conception (i.e., drawing a parrallel between that and sex and acting on it) can help in conception. We know, scientifically, that nature provides, via sexual arousal and the release of sex-related hormones, aides to conception and birth. Indeed, it may be critical for some women, and I _am_ one of those women, so I have experience to back up the theory. That isn't to say that all women need to approach it thus to achieve pregnancy and normal birth. Just that it is something that nature does usually provide, for a _reason_, and that it is good to be aware of that so that we for whom it's relevant (i.e., those who don't need clinical assistance) can take advantage of it.


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:

Is there that "glorious exhaustion" after birth, Mommas?
it's funny how similar the after-birth high and after-sex high are to me- granted the after-birth high was 100 times more intense than after sex. I always get really mellowed out but also kind of hyper after sex and that's how it was after ds was born. I was gloriously exhausted from a hard 20 hour labor but at the same time I was giddy and wanted to call everyone I knew to come over and break out some champagne and revel in the cosmic high. very similar energy though.


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## tinyshoes (Mar 6, 2002)

I apologize and am sorry for offending wannabe, Belleweather, AdinaL, and anyone else reading this thread.

I am grateful for the thoughtful, beautiful discussion we've had about the actual intended topic.

I am regretful that I submitted a thread topic at midnight a few days ago, without careful, dutiful review of my syntax...it seems to have provided A LOT of anguish over infertility and naturalness, which was _never_ my intent!


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## tinyshoes (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds*
I think part of the problem is that the OP misspoke (miswrote?) and put something in a way that implied something that she didn't mean to imply. She wrote: "Given the proper elements (mood lighting, love, calmness, comfort with partner, right day in the cycle, etc.) any given (hetero! LOL) couple will achieve pregnancy natually." Read literally, that means, "all couples can achieve pregnancy naturally." Yes, that's wrong. Clearly, though, that's not what she meant, because just before she had written "...most people can get pregnant naturally." _Most_, not all. (Which is true.) And just before that, "A neccessary c-section is a wonderful, sacred gift--just like the wonderful, sacred gift of pregnancy for the couple who has yearned, but has not been able to achieve pregnancy without clinical assistance."

fourlittlebirds, this is why authors have editors! Thank you for parsing my sentence, and highlighting for me how my text was read, and therefore how it offended.

Stuck in my perspective, knowing what I _meant_ to write, I couldn't _see_ that the word choice I used resulted in an interpretation I'd never intend. I am coming from a perspective that is sensitive to the heartache of infertility, and as I wrote, I concerned myself with not offending people in gay couplings, who _are_ fertile, but not able to achieve a pregnancy without clinical assistance.

And I really didn't have much of anything to say about the crowd that needs clinical assistance to achieve pregnancy...I wanted to say birth can occur without clinical intervention, just like pregnancy can occur without clinical intervention--BUT WHEN A C-SECTION IS NEEDED, it is just as important and neccessary as clinically-assisted conception.

I didn't want to offend the c-section crowd, and wanted to highlight my understanding that neccessity of some c-sections equals the neccessity of clinically-assisted conception (coming from my pro-homebirth stance, it's important for me to say I'm not anti-all c-sections, when trying to discuss a topic about parallels between baby making and baby birthing.)


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