# watching my nonAP friend punish her 4 yr old



## sarahope (Feb 5, 2009)

A very good friend of mine has a four year old who has recently regressed a bit with potty training. He has started losing control from time to time of his bowel movements. My friend is very sweet (and very mainstream) and has been very frustrated by this behavior, so every time her DS poops in his pants or on the floor or wherever, she puts him into an icy shower or takes away his toys or some other punitive measure.

I spend a lot of time with her and I really struggle seeing this response to the little boy, who is not acting out of malice. But I am a new mom with one little six month old, and she has four kids. It's one of those things where I doubt she'd take me seriously even if I gently offered a suggestion, since she has all the experience, kwim?

I worry her little boy is going to have issues because whenever he does feel the need to move his bowels he's going to have anxiety since it's now associated with punishment.

Would you keep your mouth shut or just speak up? TIA


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## happybunny (Mar 2, 2009)

I don't have kids at all yet, but I would speak up. Even mainstream sources will tell you not to punish your children because of potty accidents. I would do some research and give her some articles from mainstream sources. I am so sorry you have to watch this. Poor kid.


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## Lovinmum (Aug 22, 2008)

oh wow. how awful! maybe you could give her some alternative stratagies or suggest she talk to someone about his relapse. I doubt he is doing it to make her angry, there is probably a physical reason.


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## Mama.Pajama (Jul 16, 2008)

Putting a 4 year old into an icy shower as punishment for messing his pants? If it was my friend, even though I respected her and knew that this was not her intention, I would tell her that it is abuse!
Is it just me or does that seem really cruel?


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Does she know she's encouraging him to hold it for too long and making the accidents worse? Not to mention the risk of him getting an impacted stool if things get really bad.

This probably started with a food sensitivity or mild illness. Would she give him an ice shower if he threw up on himself?


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## major_mama11 (Apr 13, 2008)

Yikes- punishing for potty accidents is bad enough, but the icy shower thing? I think that crosses the line to being abuse, no matter how sweet the friend may be otherwise. I would worry about the poor kid becoming afraid to poop at all. As others said, there may be a physical reason for his accidents.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I'd tell her I can't spend any more time with her until she's willing to work with finding different ways to handle the situation.

(And can I just say I detest the "I have 3, 4, 12 kids so I know EVERYTHING" attitude?)


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## Snuzzmom (Feb 6, 2008)

That is horrible.







Poor little guy.


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## momma_unlimited (Aug 10, 2008)

I would suggest *she* take some more responsibility by noticing when he does have a BM and having him sit down and "try" to go when it's been a while.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

thats not a mainstream reaction thats plain punitive. I'd speak up personally.

Deanna


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## Mama Mko (Jul 26, 2007)

That's awful. I would say something.


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## puddle (Aug 30, 2007)

I think telling your friend that she is abusing her child is only going to make her defensive. Your best bet is probably to approach her by saying that you can see that she is very frustrated by this behavior, and then offer her other strategies that have worked for other parents in this situation. She is responding to her child the only way she knows how, but if you offer her better solutions then she may be open to trying them out.


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## Daphneduck (Jan 22, 2009)

I agree with pp, that is not mainstream. I would say something, the icy shower is cruel.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

she doesnt sound very sweet to me.


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## hippiemommaof4 (Mar 31, 2008)

I'm a very open minded person and I have a lot of mainstream friends and even they would tell you that its cruel to do that. Its totally cruel to put a child into a cold shower, that is just mean and wrong . I cant imagine doing that to my kids.


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## sarahope (Feb 5, 2009)

thanks guys, I think it's cruel too - that's why I'm having such a hard time with it. I should have said she's otherwise very sweet, as a person/friend. But it's not the first time I've been uncomfortable watching her parenting. She is very comfortable with CIO and does other things that make me nervous, like locking her kids in their room when she wants them to nap. Now that I type this out I see how bad it all sounds.

I'm glad I posted, and grateful you mamas aren't afraid to drop the abuse word. Thanks.

I've just been so scared to criticize a good friend, I think she's really overwhelmed with four kids four and under.

But I know, that's no excuse.


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

That is definitely not mainstream. That's awful, and I would speak up with your new parent wide-eyed naivite "Y'know, I was reading that it's a really bad idea to punish when they have accidents, and instead you should do X,Y,Z."


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## yarngoddess (Dec 27, 2006)

I would really worry about this childs physical and emotional well being. I have never heard of a 4yr old (thats more than likely been potty trianed for 2 years) to regress to the pont of having more than one accident. This sound more like an actual UNABILITY to contoll his bowels? Like an issue with his rectum? I think this child should be evaluated by her Doc! I know that I certainly would take my 4 yr old into the doc for this! Very strange!

I also would say something about worrying about his health and also that the showers could cause a chain reaction of fear, constipation, and other issues when this little man is older. I would not mention that you feel it's abuse, however if she would refuse to seek some help and change her approach then I would call it abuse. I'm so sorry for your little friend to have to feel this way- and for his mommy to treat him like that. I have 4 under 6 and it IS hard- however I would not punish the oldest because he pooped his pants- I would be upset sure, but HE would not know that I was upset. I would be more concerned..... I think your friend is getting caught up in the moment and isn't seeing the big picture- this isn't typical 4yr old behavior!


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## MaryLang (Jun 18, 2004)

Oh my! That is HORRIBLE!!!!
I actually had 4, 4 and under







AND THAT IS NOT AN ISSUE! It doesn't matter how many you have!
There is no excuse for that behavior! My DS just turned 4 and has actually had problems holding in bm's before and I never handled it as a "real" discipline situation. In most cases he would get so caught up playing or something, getting so focused he would just forget. I would take him in the bathroom, clean him up and explain that its important to go to the bathroom when you feel a poopy coming. It MAY be physiological, but it MAY also just be a very focused little 4 year old.
Gotta go baby crying, but I may come back to this...


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## sarahope (Feb 5, 2009)

you Mamas are SO helpful. Thank you.

I will talk to her, and I will have some resources gathered to show her. I know she will listen. I think she wants to be a good mom but hasn't had very good examples and has never really sought to find another way. It's sad, really, how terrible things get propagated from family to family, generation to generation. I think she just has no idea when it comes to behavior management of any kind.

I can't help think she'll be relieved to think he's not doing it on purpose, whether for medical reasons or just because he's so distracted.


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## ewe+lamb (Jul 20, 2004)

it sounds as if your friend is very misguided in the whole parenting journey, just because you have 4 kids certainly doesn't mean you know everything and you have no right to say anything - just wait until your baby is a 18 month old or 2 year and see what sort of thing she may expect you to inflict on your babe .....


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

I actually gasped audibly over the icy shower thing. That's horrible and borderline abuse. I mean, I probably wouldn't say anything over taking toys away beyond "negative punishments are not recommended by experts in potty training" and then share my positive reinforcement story (totally worked on my 4 yo when she was regressing with potty training). But the icy shower? I'd outright tell her I think that's harsh and borderline abusive. There's a lot of things I will put up with in terms of differences in parenting styles, but stuff like that is where I draw the line. I'm even willing to lose a friendship over it, I feel that strongly.


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## Chicky2 (May 29, 2002)

A good friend of mine has 4 closely spaced children, and I know she would have NEVER done something like that! That is horrible, and no one could ever convince me otherwise! Please speak up. That poor little boy will end up w/way worse problems if he is treated this way.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

This post made me really sad for that little boy. I'd have to say something, that's just not ok. It's one thing to take away a toy, but to put him in an icy shower, that's just sad and borderline abusive.

Is she asking him if he needs to go to the bathroom? So many times you have to keep asking them, I wonder if he's not telling her because he thinks she going to react like she has. How sad







.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarahope* 
My friend is very sweet (and very mainstream) and has been very frustrated by this behavior, so every time her DS poops in his pants or on the floor or wherever, she puts him into an icy shower or takes away his toys or some other punitive measure.


um...that is not mainstream. i don't know of any mainstream source that would advocate punishing for potty accidents. please say something!


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

even if he is doing it on purpose what she is doing is only going to tramatize the child and result in this "problem" going on even longer, and probably creating some other problems on top of it.


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## Agatha_Ann (Apr 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
I actually gasped audibly over the icy shower thing. That's horrible and borderline abuse. I mean, I probably wouldn't say anything over taking toys away beyond "negative punishments are not recommended by experts in potty training" and then share my positive reinforcement story (totally worked on my 4 yo when she was regressing with potty training). But the icy shower? I'd outright tell her I think that's harsh and borderline abusive. There's a lot of things I will put up with in terms of differences in parenting styles, but stuff like that is where I draw the line. I'm even willing to lose a friendship over it, I feel that strongly.


ITA with all of this, that poor baby


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## sarahope (Feb 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *readytobedone* 
um...that is not mainstream. i don't know of any mainstream source that would advocate punishing for potty accidents. please say something!


uh yeah sorry for the original messy phrasing guys, I didn't think icy showers are the norm out there in discipline, I just meant that in general she's not AP but mainstream, with the scheduling and CIO and everything. I wrote it sloppily, nak, sorry.

I don't want to lose the friendship, but you guys are right- I have to think of her little boy and what she's unwittingly setting him up for. Hopefully if I approach it carefully she'll be receptive.


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## mamakah (Nov 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarahope* 
A very good friend of mine has a four year old who has recently regressed a bit with potty training. He has started losing control from time to time of his bowel movements. My friend is very sweet (and very mainstream) and has been very frustrated by this behavior, so every time her DS poops in his pants or on the floor or wherever, she puts him into an icy shower or takes away his toys or some other punitive measure.

I spend a lot of time with her and I really struggle seeing this response to the little boy, who is not acting out of malice. But I am a new mom with one little six month old, and she has four kids. It's one of those things where I doubt she'd take me seriously even if I gently offered a suggestion, since she has all the experience, kwim?

I worry her little boy is going to have issues because whenever he does feel the need to move his bowels he's going to have anxiety since it's now associated with punishment.

Would you keep your mouth shut or just speak up? TIA









so so sad. ugh! Poor little guy. My BIL told DH and I a story about spanking their 2 yr old when she peed her pants while sitting on his lap. Absolutely heartbreaking.
I don't have any advice, but I think what she is doing is absolutely abusive.


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## labdogs42 (Jan 21, 2009)

I have heard many people advocate cold or lukewarm cleanups for potty accidents (obviously not on this board). I don't think it is as unusual as we'd all like to think.

Is there a good potty training book or resource we can recommend for the OP to share with her friend? I really think presenting some hard data will help the OP approach the other mom in a constructive way. I'll look for something, too, but maybe if we all put our heads together, we can find some great stuff!









ETA, I found this form Dr Sears: http://www.askdrsears.com/faq/az7.asp


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

it doesnt sound like its being used as a clean up, but more as a punihsment.


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## labdogs42 (Jan 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
it doesnt sound like its being used as a clean up, but more as a punihsment.


I think we are talking about the same thing. The cleanup IS punishing. The way I have heard it explained, it is like they are trying to make it a "logical consequence" of pooping your pants -- you poop your pants, you need to get cleaned up in an unpleasant way. Yes, I know they have it all wrong, but that is how I have heard it explained many times on other boards when discussing this topic.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

oh thats weird! My son cleans up his accidents, I help, and if he doesnt want to I do it for him. So they are purposefully using clean up as a punishment, because a child can clean up/be cleaned up, without being punished! seems like a dangerous path to go down...


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

:
This was the "not really a natural consequence" consequence I mentioned in that thread.

So OP, just FYI, your friend might think she's being gentle because she's only using "natural consequences."


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## labdogs42 (Jan 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 







:
This was the "not really a natural consequence" consequence I mentioned in that thread.

So OP, just FYI, your friend might think she's being gentle because she's only using "natural consequences."

Although, this isn't a "natural" consequence, it might be (in someone's mind) a "logical" consequence. The natural consequence of pooping one's pants is being smelly and uncomfortable or getting a rash from sitting in it. Gross, but true. Natural consequences happen without any intervention from us, logical ones require some intervention.


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## Mary-Beth (Nov 20, 2001)

My dd1 suddenly started having accidents like this when she was 3yo (after totally mastering the potty since 1.5yo) and it turned out to be celiac disease gluten intolerance. It was very hard to tell if she was just too distracted to go potty, if she were upset about something, or what...it took a while to figure out but even if it wasn't a medical reason the response should be the same. (gentle and patient)

She could teach him what it means to be friendly and helpful to someone you love and see what she can do to help him. I bet it would help to tell him it's ok accidents happen and they can get him cleaned up together. (gently and as comfortable as possible)
She could try to observe when it happens...look for a pattern: time of day? diet? sleep? Would it help to ask him to visit the bathroom every couple of hours? She could ask him what can I do to help you make it to the potty and let him be part of coming up with solutions.
Maybe he is adjusting to having 3 siblings born-- I think you said 4 kids under 4yo or something, right? So some reassurance may be helpful, some extra snuggles everyday accident or not.


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## keilonwy (Dec 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
That is definitely not mainstream. That's awful, and I would speak up with your new parent wide-eyed naivite "Y'know, I was reading that it's a really bad idea to punish when they have accidents, and instead you should do X,Y,Z."

Love this idea! I think it's a great, non-aggressive way to bring the literature on this to her attention! Plunging someone into an icy shower is way, way, way not okay - it's actually one of the things that happens in A Child Called It



































I'm sorry for even mentioning that on MDC (or admitting that I've read it...I was horribly curious and it was sitting on a friend's table), but it really stuck in my head as being just hideous, and so hearing about it happening to another kid gives me the chills (so to speak).

That poor baby boy, and poor you trying to watch it! I would be really torn as to how to address the situation, too.


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## chipper26 (Sep 4, 2008)

I think she needs to put herself in an icy shower to cool her rage. I find her response appalling. I wouldn't do that to my dog.


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## teale (Feb 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
I actually gasped audibly over the icy shower thing. That's horrible and borderline abuse. I mean, I probably wouldn't say anything over taking toys away beyond "negative punishments are not recommended by experts in potty training" and then share my positive reinforcement story (totally worked on my 4 yo when she was regressing with potty training). But the icy shower? I'd outright tell her I think that's harsh and borderline abusive. There's a lot of things I will put up with in terms of differences in parenting styles, but stuff like that is where I draw the line. I'm even willing to lose a friendship over it, I feel that strongly.









:

I was telling my DH about this thread over dinner, and the first thing he said is, "Ice showers have been used as a form of torture".

The other thing? I think someone brought this up, but I really wonder if your friend's message is totally being jumbled to her kid. All he's afraid of, I'm sure, is the icy shower. I'm sure he holds his BM's until he can't anymore, and doesn't know "what" to do about it. Kids will focus on the negative, especially when their actions bring out such a negative and harsh result from their parents.

Say something; you don't have to be an experienced mom or parent to know that doing something like that is just wrong.


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## Lindsay1234 (Dec 19, 2005)

This reminded me of a friends sister who is a hardcore germ-o-phobe. She makes everyone in the family squat over the toilet and then washes them with a scrub sponge and some natural soap after every BM. Needless to say, the kids were holding in their BMs for weeks at a time and ended up having severe bowel/colon problems.

Could this be a situation where hes holding it in? This is her oldest lo right? Where did she learn this "technique" of the icy water?

Im sure she will get REALLY defensive so maybe say something that doesnt bring up the icy shower right away.


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## haroldpapa (Mar 26, 2009)

I would strongly suggest taking this matter to a child protection or family counseling organization. I feel a lot of this boys pain. I was repeatedly abused in the time of pottytraining and it was mostly called "punishment that I deserved" but it was not deserved. I believe that the idea of a punishment of any kind is not right or beneficial as a pottytraining regieme. An icy shower is just rediculous anger and frustration being heaped upon the innocent child.


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## MaryLang (Jun 18, 2004)

haroldpapa~ I tend to agree more with your way of thinking. My DH used to get cold wash cloths in his face for accidents at night, and still has strong feelings about it today. The more I think about it, I could just cry, I feel so bad for this kid







:


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## sarafi (Feb 10, 2008)

The icy shower thing is way out of line.

I also would think illness/food issue in this case. When my oldest was four she starting having "pooping accidents" all of the time. I can't think of anything more frustrating than having an already potty-trained child suddenly start pooping her pants all of the time. Not fun for us, and so embarrassing for her when we were in public.

We finally realized that she just cannot have milk or any soft cheese. It never fails to cause an accident, and I really don't know why it took four years to show up...but there it is.

Poor boy, definately suggest a diet/illness concern to your friend. Tell her you googled it (that is what I did) to see what you would do if it where your child suddenly having this problem. If he can't control it the shower thing won't *work* anyway and who knows what she will come up with next?


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## twinergy (Mar 30, 2008)

This is so sad I am crying for the boy. I think that the mother could easily become defensive and not listen to you if you confront parenting skills as an issue first. Maybe a better approach would be to start bring up the possibility of a medical issue; then you aren’t pointing the finger at her. It’s easier to hear criticism if you aren’t put on the defensive. I have heard Encopresis is a common medical condition associated with children that have bowel control problems. There is lots of info about it on the internet.


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## sarahope (Feb 5, 2009)

Hi guys, OP here. I just want you to know I have REALLY appreciated all your thoughts and insights. I am definitely not going to sit back anymore. You have given me much courage and helpful ideas and I thank you.

I don't have a clue where my friend learned her parenting tactics, I don't believe her parents were that harsh but I could be wrong. She told me once, "There are two kinds of mamas- cryers and rockers. I let my babies cry at night, but my mom always rocked hers. I can tell you're a rocker too."
(Sigh.)

I will approach it from the medical issue first. I think there really may be something to this, because I know this little boy's diet is mostly carbs and cheese (I know!) and she has told me before that there is a history of dairy sensitivity in her family. I think talking about it in this context will allow me to bring up the issue in a nonthreatening way, and then I can segue into how her little boy is developing negative associations and that bowel movements are now associated with a traumatic experience.

I do think she'll listen. She's so frustrated that I am hoping she'll welcome some sort of insight into what might be going on.

But if she doesn't or if nothing changes, then I'll enlist help from a more authoritative source.

Thanks again guys. MDC is the best.


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## THBVsMommy (Mar 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
I actually gasped audibly over the icy shower thing. That's horrible and borderline abuse. I mean, I probably wouldn't say anything over taking toys away beyond "negative punishments are not recommended by experts in potty training" and then share my positive reinforcement story (totally worked on my 4 yo when she was regressing with potty training). But the icy shower? I'd outright tell her I think that's harsh and borderline abusive. There's a lot of things I will put up with in terms of differences in parenting styles, but stuff like that is where I draw the line. I'm even willing to lose a friendship over it, I feel that strongly.

ITA. I would most definitely tell her something. I, myself, can't imagine being put in an icy cold shower.. much less my child! There are lots of ways you can word your concern and to offer alternative methods, but if she is not willing to listen, then yes, that's one friendship I could do without. I can look past a lot of my friend's views on discipline, but this would be something I couldn't.


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## teale (Feb 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarahope* 
Hi guys, OP here. I just want you to know I have REALLY appreciated all your thoughts and insights. I am definitely not going to sit back anymore. You have given me much courage and helpful ideas and I thank you.

I don't have a clue where my friend learned her parenting tactics, I don't believe her parents were that harsh but I could be wrong. She told me once, "There are two kinds of mamas- cryers and rockers. I let my babies cry at night, but my mom always rocked hers. I can tell you're a rocker too."
(Sigh.)

I will approach it from the medical issue first. I think there really may be something to this, because I know this little boy's diet is mostly carbs and cheese (I know!) and she has told me before that there is a history of dairy sensitivity in her family. I think talking about it in this context will allow me to bring up the issue in a nonthreatening way, and then I can segue into how her little boy is developing negative associations and that bowel movements are now associated with a traumatic experience.

I do think she'll listen. She's so frustrated that I am hoping she'll welcome some sort of insight into what might be going on.

But if she doesn't or if nothing changes, then I'll enlist help from a more authoritative source.

Thanks again guys. MDC is the best.









She is lucky to have a friend like you, that's for sure! I think broaching the topic as a medical issue will have her more open to what could solve the issue.

Good luck with this!


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

: that she's receptive and things get fixed!

(And, much as I hate to think of it, the best second option is that she's so horrible you can report her without an iota of doubt.)


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