# Another "Disciplining Somebody Else's Child, WWYD" Thread



## amma_mama (May 20, 2008)

I always feel uncomfortable when I have to handle a situation with another parent's child when the parent is present (i.e. 3 feet away and watching/listening to what their child is doing). Yesterday evening was DD's 5th birthday party. One mother and child arrived early so were the only ones there. I don't know the mother very well so we started to chat and she was telling me what a hard time she has with her DD (4 yo), that she does not listen to her, etc. Her daughter is definitely "energetic".

Flash forward...I put out some snacks and drinks. It was to be a small party (2 families, with a total of 4 kids), so I did not have an unlimited supply of each snack. Her DD started to scarf down one of the bowls of nuts. Admittedly they are yummy and hard to put down. She was encouraging my DD to follow suit. I gently told my DD that the nuts were for everybody to share and she had enough. She stopped eating the nuts. The other girl's mother half-heartedly told her to stop eating the nuts as well, but she did not stop. I finally took the bowl, when it was half gone, and suggested putting some on plates for each of them, then put the bowl in the middle of the dining table, away from where we were sitting. Her DD climbed up on the table (!) and took the bowl and proceeded to pour the contents onto her plate. The mother, again half-heartedly, told her not to do that but did not move an inch to really stop her daughter. I took the bowl away and matter-of-factly told the girl that the nuts were for everybody to share. I felt funny afterwards, as her mother was right there. Though I did not raise my voice or speak to "sternly", as I was rather matter-of-fact in my dealings with her, I still felt like maybe I overstepped my bounds and should have just let her DD finish off the nuts? Besides from the issue of sharing, I was genuiunely concerned that it was too much for her little body to handle (but maybe she has a stomach of steel?).

Later in the evening, when it was time for cake, her DD wanted to blow out the candle. Understandable that a young child would want to join in the fun but it is also an opportunity to learn that it is another child's turn to be in the spotlight. Again, her mother was right there and said nothing. She left it to me to tell her DD that it was my DD's birthday and it was her candle to blow out and that she can blow out candles on her own birthday. I had to physically block her daughter's face from the candle, as she proceeded to try to blow out the candle before my DD had a chance. Another half-hearted exclamation by the mother followed.

There were a few more incidents over the course of the evening. And a couple of times after I matter-of-factly dealt with her DD, "It's good for her to hear others tell her like that". You think? I hardly had time to enjoy watching my DD enjoy her party as I was constantly dealing with this other little girl, which should have been her mother's job. And she wonders why she has trouble getting her DD to listen to her? She obviously does not even try.

Our DDs only recently became friends and part of me is sorry that they did as I already have started to develop negative feelings towards the girl (which I know should be directed at her mother as the little girl clearly does not know any better). Fortunately, we are moving this week and will no longer have contact with this girl and her mother.

Neverthless, I still feel like I was put in an awkward position and maybe I should have just let her DD do whatever she wanted/was permitted to do, as long it did not cause anybody else real harm? The only incident that was clearly beyond the bounds was the candle, which I cannot imagine handling any differently. But otherwise perhaps I should have just left her mother to "parent" her as she sees fit even if it is in my house?


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## rainyday (Apr 28, 2006)

I'm sure that some people will jump on this and disagree, but I don't think it sounds like you did anything wrong. Unfortunately, some parents just seem to be passive and unable or unwilling to correct their child's behavior. Everything you did seems very reasonable. My theory has always been that if a parent is unwilling to help their child behave appropriately (and most people would agree that blowing out the birthday child's candle or taking all the food from the serving bowl for oneself are not appropriate) and it is negatively affecting my child or negatively affecting others at my house, then I will say something.

I do hate these types of situations. They're always so very uncomfortable! I think some parents really just don't know how to be assertive with their children, but it makes me so very uncomfortable!


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

You did nothing wrong. It just makes me nuts when people won't parent their children....







I cannot begin to understand why they won't. No is not a bad word! It can be explained nicely but firmly - as you did. You can physically help them if needed - by moving the nuts or standing between her and the birthday candle.

I think it is HELPING the child learn what is appropriate, and how to better get along with people in the future. It is definitely a deal breaker for me - I am not going to spend much time with people who let their kids run wild. It is rude and I just don't have time to stress over it.


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## momtoluke (Feb 14, 2009)

You absolutely did the right thing! I know it's totally awkward and uncomfortable to be put in that position though.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amma_mama* 
I still felt like maybe I overstepped my bounds and should have just let her DD finish off the nuts? Besides from the issue of sharing, I was genuiunely concerned that it was too much for her little body to handle (but maybe she has a stomach of steel?)....

Fortunately, we are moving this week and will no longer have contact

Yes, in my opinion it was overly controlling to try to regulate what her child was eating at the party. I find it to be impolite. As the parent of a child who was on the receiving end of similar comments in this sort of situation, I say you may not know the full situation. Yes, our child had a significantly larger appetite than might have been typical for a child his age. And, no it isn't polite for party hosts to point that out or to attempt to remove food. Doing so in fact was really contrary to the approach we were intentionally taking in that situation. If it is unclear why monitoring the amount people are eating because you know better about their stomach capacity is rude imagine doing that to an adult.

I understand it bothered you but you are moving. Is it worth the energy to be upset about this?


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## Shannie77 (Jan 16, 2007)

I don't think you over stepped your boundaries. I have been at adult parties where a tray is politely taken away from a group so that it can be passed around to other guests.








You also gave the mom opportunities to parent her own child. It was your house and your rules. My DD is allowed to jump on our furniture but at other people's house's I respect their rules and parent DD accordingly.

How did the mother react? Did she seem relieved you were dealing with her? I ask because at the ballet school I teach at sometimes it seems like the mother's would prefer the staff remind their children of the rules. For example there is a stairwell that children like to hang from... hard to explain but a fall would be dangerous. The school has a rule that children are not to hang there. Several times office staff has to go out and remind the children... even though the parents are right there, and for the most part the parents usually seem happy that someone else dealt with it.

I know when I am visiting my mom sometimes I get her to "discipline" DD, because often she is more likely to listen to Nanny since it is Nanny's house after all.

At any rate your post reminded me why I never want to have a parent and child party. It just seems like it could be too stressful!


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## dogretro (Jun 17, 2008)

I think each incident needs to be looked at individually. Yes, eating all of the nuts would be annoying, but whatever, it was a party snack. If she ate them all and THEN moved on to start eating all of another snack, I would probably say let's leave some snacks for others. The candle thing, yah, I wouldve stepped in b/c it was not her birthday. Other stuff, it just depends. I have friends who allow their toddlers to stand on the coffee table. No big deal in their own houses. If they stood on our coffee table, I could easily tell them that no one is allowed to do that in our house so they need to get down.

When the parent is right there, I generally assume that they believe that whatever their child is doing is okay. If the kid eats a whole bag of M&M's, well I wont have to clean up their puke later, so go ahead. If the parent is not right there, that is different and I have no problem stepping in. If dealing w/ another person's child, while the person is right there, is interfering w/ your joy, then, yes, stepping back and ignoring it may go a long way for you.


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
Yes, in my opinion it was overly controlling to try to regulate what her child was eating at the party. I find it to be impolite. As the parent of a child who was on the receiving end of similar comments in this sort of situation, I say you may not know the full situation. Yes, our child had a significantly larger appetite than might have been typical for a child his age. And, no it isn't polite for party hosts to point that out or to attempt to remove food. Doing so in fact was really contrary to the approach we were intentionally taking in that situation. If it is unclear why monitoring the amount people are eating because you know better about their stomach capacity is rude imagine doing that to an adult.

I understand it bothered you but you are moving. Is it worth the energy to be upset about this?









:

also it seems to be rather common at birthday parties that I have seen to have candles for all the kids to blow out when they are so little because it is so hard to resist. I know some folks do a cupcake for each guest with their own candle, birthday kid get the age # of candles, singing, everyone blows out together.

I think that its fine to ask a child to follow your rules in your house. But as a parent I don't know your rules, unless you have them posted. I wouldn't think to stop my kid eating all the nuts because I would figure you put them out to be eaten, however if that was "the rule" I could be persuaded to follow it.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

See, and I would never let my kids eat all the nuts in a bowl if there were other guests at the party, or we were there early and other guests were coming - not because of her stomach capacity or tolerance, but because it's inconsiderate to not leave any for others (or eat more than half the contents). The snacks are for *everyone*, not just my kid.

OP, I think you did fine.


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## Porcelain Interior (Feb 8, 2008)

It's totally appropriate to stop a child who's mother refuses to teach her child by redirecting or explaining sharing. It isn't fair to the other guests (speaking of being polite to guests) for one guests to hog something entirely no matter how fond of nuts she was.

I think you did it politely giving several chances for mom to step up. Having guests doesn't mean anything they want/say goes. Food meant to be enjoyed by several people *2 families in this case* needs to be shared.

The mom sounded overwhelmed or very laid back and was probably glad not to have to correct her child. I don't really care for that attitude myself (and I am passive, but have mellow children thank goodness), but she was obviously not upset in the least that you had to be the bad guy.

Kids need limits, and gently providing them is the kind and considerate thing to do.

I would have put the nuts up if she couldn't leave them alone and told her that she may ask for more if she would like some, and then after a few small servings direct her to other snacks and explain that others haven't had a chance to have some nuts yet.

A big appetite really is beside the point. I'd never allow a single solitary child to wipe out an entire bowl/platter/dish of food by themselves.

You saved the child from potential bad feelings on the other children's parts anyway, what if they'd have wanted some nuts?

I think you handled it well.

Maybe it's just different attitudes, but in our family small children don't get to run the snack and food tables. Especially when there's limited quantities as OP said.

The hostess' job is to ensure the comfort and happiness of ALL his/her guests.


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## vaughnmama (May 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
Yes, in my opinion it was overly controlling to try to regulate what her child was eating at the party. I find it to be impolite. And, no it isn't polite for party hosts to point that out or to attempt to remove food. If it is unclear why monitoring the amount people are eating because you know better about their stomach capacity is rude imagine doing that to an adult.

I understand it bothered you but you are moving. Is it worth the energy to be upset about this?











First of all, I do believe that it would have been really nice for the other mother to at least have a conversation with her daughter about being considerate of others who might want the nuts too. However, she probably has very little practice in modeling social etiquette for her little one. She's possibly one of those moms who just doesn't know what to do. She already feels like she has a relationship with her daughter where the daughter doesn't listen. Being really insecure, she's likely watching how other parents handle various situations.

That being said though, I have observed that with forced sharing and regulating someone else's food intake, both often backfire and produce the opposite of what a parent intends. I can see why you wouldn't want her to climb on your table, but that's where the food was now; that child was problem solving (in her own way) when you were attempting to block her "need." At that age, wants and needs are all in the same. You could figure out some preventative measures from this experience for the next birthday party you may host. I like the idea from a pp about providing candles for all the kids. Also, if you don't want to provide an abundance of food (so the kids can choose to eat until they are satisfied) then you could structure the party as a potluck so the guests' parents would be expected to contribute to the yummy offerings.

But you know, if you feel strongly that parents really should control their kids more, then it must be a relief to know that you are moving.







You could choose to focus on that. Perhaps you can more carefully monitor who your child makes friends with at your new home, if you think that would reduce your stress. However, now that I think of it, that might backfire too over the long run.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I generally see around here with parties for children that young that snacks are kept in a place where the children need the help of adults to get them. I assumed it was for the sake of them not getting their hands all over all the snacks, but maybe it's also so they can't take them all. In any case, I think for a party for a 4-year-old, so for kids from 3 to 4 generally, it's probably going to be a bad idea to put a bowl of snacks out for children to help themselves, and not expect them to help themselves, or to expect them to have the social graces you were expecting. Though if I'd been the mom, I would have stepped in and helped my dd get snacks.

The candle blowing out thing is classic and I don't think there's a particularly good way to handle it. I've seen this at just about every party for kids that age I've gone to. Again, it's a case where kids don't have social graces and just aren't going to hold back. All you can do is muddle through the best you can. I wouldn't think badly of a child that age who couldn't resist, but on the other hand I understand you trying to save that opportunity for your child. They also try to open the birthday child's presents and sometimes the parents of the birthday child get upset about that, though I'm not sure if I've ever seen a birthday child get upset about it. Maybe. I can't say I've paid close attention.

So, I think your expectations maybe were a bit high, but I understand why you got involved, and it doesn't sound like you were mean or anything so I wouldn't sweat it. But in the future, with young kids, pass their snacks out individually or put the snacks up where they need help to access them.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

I think it's fine to enforce certain rules in your own house.

I think the thing that stands out in this case is that you weren't really go against or around the mother- you weren't the first one to tell the girl not to eat all the nuts, or not to blow out the candle. You didn't come between the mother and her daughter; the mother's stated wish was that her daughter not eat more of that food. It was also your wish. Since both parents were on the same page, I see absolutely no problem with you stepping in and being the one to take care of the situation.

It would be different if you had taken food away from her when it seemed like her mother was okay with her eating it, you know what I mean?


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## Dabble (Jun 14, 2007)

OP, I'm in the camp that you were not wrong. You were put in an awkward situation by this mother who for whatever reason preferred to hand the reins over to you.

Like a PP suggested, maybe her own lack of confidence as a parent causes her to sit back and try to learn from how other parents handle these situations, and to see if her daughter responds to them. *But that just underlines the point that you were not wrong to respond the way you did*. You responded appropriately - you were firm but not harsh, consistent in your attempts to teach her proper etiquette. Maybe the mother will do better the next time her child goes to a party, having learned from what you did?

Whichever way people here believe, that you were right or wrong to respond the way you did, no one can deny that being put in such a situation is awkward. It's uncomfortable to discipline other people's kids, and to most parents, it's uncomfortable watching someone else discipline your own child.

Yes, if you had made different accommodations for your party (extra candles, lots of food, etc, etc) it may have been a non-issue (or you may have had an entirely different set of issues) but how is a person supposed to prepare for every possible scenario in advance?

It is the parent's responsibility to teach their own child what is socially appropriate way to behave in someone else's home. How else will she learn? If she continues like this, she will likely find that her daughter isn't receiving invitations any longer, and that's truly sad.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Porcelain Interior* 

I think you did it politely giving several chances for mom to step up. Having guests doesn't mean anything they want/say goes. Food meant to be enjoyed by several people *2 families in this case* needs to be shared.

.

So, let's say you had another couple over for dinner. You felt the gal was eating too many nuts. Would you question her ability to judge her own stomach capacity and remove the bowl telling her to share? If you did this what message do you think it would say about you as a host and what would it say to your guest?


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## Kismet_fw (Aug 7, 2009)

OP, I think you're fine. A child old enough to go to another child's party should be learning how to behave when out to a party. At an age when parents go with them, it's because the PARENT should be parenting them and guiding their behavior.

The bit about a candle for every child must be recent, I've never done it, seen it done, or even heard of it before. I guess it's the lenient thinker's solution to getting kids to leave the birthday child's candles alone? When do you stop, highschool? The workplace?

I've known children who had trouble learning this kind of thing, we often didn't invite them for special events. They knew it was because we found them disruptive, destructive, and a few other things (not just at 4 and 5 with parents not parenting either, but also from 8-18.) I've had occasions to witness them outside of small home events and saw the same patterns at school, church, or youth-league sports, or just roaming the neighborhood because they didn't see any point in staying put if they could sneak away. Now I see them struggling to get their adult lives in order, and bringing their own children into the world.

I spend alot of time praying for them, because I do care.

But as things are likely to continue as they are, guess how I think OP's guest is going to turn out?


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## terrabella (Oct 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kismet_fw* 
The bit about a candle for every child must be recent, I've never done it, seen it done, or even heard of it before. I guess it's the lenient thinker's solution to getting kids to leave the birthday child's candles alone? When do you stop, highschool? The workplace?

IKR? No way on earth I would steal my kids' thunder like that.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
So, let's say you had another couple over for dinner. You felt the gal was eating too many nuts. Would you question her ability to judge her own stomach capacity and remove the bowl telling her to share? If you did this what message do you think it would say about you as a host and what would it say to your guest?

I would hope a full grown adult would have the social awareness to not eat the majority of any food when there were other people there supposedly to enjoy the food as well - I think this has zero to do with stomach capacity or tolerance to excess, and everything to do with being considerate of others around you.







A host shouldn't have to have a limitless supply of food for a party just in case one guest decides to gorge themselves.

I can't imagine going to dinner at another couples house and cleaning out a bowl of nuts so that the other 3 people didn't have any (or only leave a handful for the others). I *could* eat them all, but just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kismet_fw* 
The bit about a candle for every child must be recent, I've never done it, seen it done, or even heard of it before. I guess it's the lenient thinker's solution to getting kids to leave the birthday child's candles alone?

Yeah, I can't get down with this either - it's in the same line of thinking as getting a present for a sibling on the other kid's birthday so they don't feel left out - I always thought that was bizarre. Learning that sometimes it isn't about you is a part of growing up - it can be done gently, it doesn't have to be rubbed in the child's face or anything. Yes, the kid might be upset, and every kid expresses upset differently, but you just have to roll with it and be sympathetic and talk with them. I can't imagine giving the special feeling of blowing out a beautiful glowing candle to every kid at my child's birthday party just so they don't feel left out - that's why you talk to your child *before* the party, or right before the cake to remind them whose birthday it is and that on *their* birthday, they'll have their own candle that only they will be able to blow out. And keep an eye on your kid so they don't try to blow it out. I remember someone having to hold DD the past two years (we would hold her on our hip "to give her a better view" and get excited about that) so she woudln't blow out her brother's candles.

I guess it's just a completely different mindset.


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## rainyday (Apr 28, 2006)

I

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
So, let's say you had another couple over for dinner. You felt the gal was eating too many nuts. Would you question her ability to judge her own stomach capacity and remove the bowl telling her to share? If you did this what message do you think it would say about you as a host and what would it say to your guest?

I think if an adult took the bowl of nuts and dumped the entire thing on her plate (as the child in the original incident tried to do), I would be so shocked that I wouldn't say anything at all to her at that moment. Remember, this little girl wasn't just eating lots of nuts; after the bowl was moved, she tried to dump the whole thing on her plate. She climbed on top of the table to do so!


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## deny_zoo29 (Sep 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
Yes, in my opinion it was overly controlling to try to regulate what her child was eating at the party. I find it to be impolite. As the parent of a child who was on the receiving end of similar comments in this sort of situation, I say you may not know the full situation. Yes, our child had a significantly larger appetite than might have been typical for a child his age. And, no it isn't polite for party hosts to point that out or to attempt to remove food. Doing so in fact was really contrary to the approach we were intentionally taking in that situation. If it is unclear why monitoring the amount people are eating because you know better about their stomach capacity is rude imagine doing that to an adult.

I understand it bothered you but you are moving. Is it worth the energy to be upset about this?

NO! I do not agree here at all! I do not believe PP did anything wrong. As she said it was a small get together and the other familes and kids were not there yet. It is not her responsibilty to "fill-up" your child because his apetite is larger than another child's. She had a few small snacks and cake for all of the kids and families to enjoy. It was not meant to be a full meal for your child. I think in this situation if you do not stop your child from eaitng all the snacks then the host has every right to say "these are for everyone to share" or "I think you've had enough right now, let's wait till so and so get here before we eat anymore" etc.

My mom had to do a similar thing at my baby shower a couple of weeks ago. We were only having cupcakes and small snacky stuff, not a big meal. One of my cousins brought her two young daughters (5 and 8) and they were the first to arrive. Before anyone else had gotten there they sat down with the bowl of Chex Mix and had eaten half of it. My mom took the bowl from them and said "this is for everybody, if you want some you can have a couple of spoonfuls on a plate and then you need to leave the rest for the other guests". It was done and taken care of and once the others started to arrive they left the food alone.

So Good Job to PP







on the way you handled this!


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

My understanding from the post was that the girl arrived early and OP and the mom talked about discipline issues... then, during the party, the girl was eating a lot of nuts. (?)

Nuts: Personally, I think it's a lot to expect a small child to understand the social tact involved in "how much food to take from a communal snack." I remember being so excited as a child to have a new snack at a friend/neighbors that I would very often eat a lot, and I don't think that's unusual. Now, if my DD were eating *that* many nuts, I would just tell her to stop and she would stop. If I had a party guest, young or old, eating a lot of nuts, I would just ignore it. You say there were small amounts of snacks... maybe there should have been more snacks available, and then it would not have been an issue. My party snack philosophy is always to have more available that I expect to use... I think that's pretty standard entertaining practice.

Candles: very common, I don't think there is a particularly graceful way of handling it. If my DD were attempting to blow out someone else's candles (and we have taught her not to since before her first birthday), I would just pick her up and leave the room till candle blowing was over. Since her mother wasn't stepping up,







I certainly don't think you were wrong in your handling of that side of the situation.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

You know, I was thinking of the responses above that were remarking on how hard it is for little ones to have the impulse control to not blow out candles, or to not stuff themselves with yummy snacks - and honestly, I agree - HOWEVER....I also firmly believe it's the parent's job to help teach their child how to handle these things considerately, even if it means removing the child if they're unable to handle it at any given stage or time. It's not fair to the birthday child, the other partygoers, OR the child having difficulties to leave them in a stressful situation like that. But to sit back and do nothing while your child eats almost all the snacks out of a bowl, climbs on the host's table to get to them after being asked to leave some for the other guests, and tries to blow out the birthday child's candle (all perhaps developmentally appropriate and understandable), *that's* the part that upsets me. I get that it is hard on a kid to learn this stuff, and kids learn this stuff at different paces....I just don't get why the parent wouldn't do more than just say something that they then don't follow up on when ignored. Even from a consensual living perspective, the idea is that *everyone* is happy with the solution...and what was going on was clearly was not agreeable to the OP, or the OP's daughter.

I've read it here before, and have posted it myself too - IMO, developmentally appropriate does not always equal socially acceptable. I don't think the mom of the other child should have screamed at her, or punished her, or shamed her. There were many things she could done that fall into the realm of gentle discipline that would have taught her daughter about being a considerate guest at a party.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

My opinion is that you can't get too worked up over 4 year olds. I'm guessing parties will get easier as your kids get bigger.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Yes, there are lots of things the mom of the other child could have done, and as I said, I would have helped my child with the snacks rather than have her get them on her own. But the OP asked if she could have handled it differently, and so she's getting feedback as far as that goes. The mom of the other child isn't here. I don't know why she wasn't helping her daughter with the snacks or keeping her daughter from blowing out the birthday child's candle.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I think you handled the child situation perfectly. You asked her to leave enough for the other guests, and when she ignored you, you removed the bowl and gave her a portion. That is exactly what I would have done if any guest--of any age-- was dumping the entire bowl of nuts onto their plate before anyone else had a chance to eat.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I would hope a full grown adult would have the social awareness to not eat the majority of any food when there were other people there supposedly to enjoy the food as well - I think this has zero to do with stomach capacity or tolerance to excess, and everything to do with being considerate of others around you.










Would you feel resentful if their spouse didn't tell them to stop eating? Would you as a host tell the adult to stop eating that food and share with others? What if the adult had a traumatic brain injury and was no more able to discern than a child - would it then make it appropriate behavior for the host? I don't find it to be polite to comment on what other people eat and that includes children. The child's mother may feel the same way.

Maybe the bottom line is that some adults don't feel very comfortable with kids serving themselves and maybe making the different choices than they would make in the process. Our child attended a preschool where snacks were passed around and kids fed themselves. My observation is that many kids had a hard time judging the first month how much to take but in time it pretty easily sorted itself out. It worked well in the transition to have plenty available. Absent experience it is hard for kids to learn to make choices. If at a birthday part you don't have the budget or desire to allow for kids to make these choices, it seems like it would make sense to serve the food already portioned out.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *deny_zoo29* 
It is not her responsibilty to "fill-up" your child because his apetite is larger than another child's. She had a few small snacks and cake for all of the kids and families to enjoy.

Actually I think the responsibility of a good host would be to allow for the range of appetites that guests may have. Not having enough food is an entertaining don't. Sure, it happens, but I can't imagine criticizing guests for having an appetite.

Really bottom line, I just can't understand working up a head of steam over this. It isn't like the child was running around hitting and biting.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Honestly? I wouldn't be _resentful_, but I would wonder why they were inconsiderate. I would also kind of wonder why their spouse didn't quietly mention to their partner that they might want to leave some for the other guests...I know if I was involved in a party and unaware that I was eating so much of one food offered that I wasn't leaving much for the other guests, I would want someone to tell me. As far as an adult with a traumatic brain injury, I would think they would have a caretaker with them or something, and would wonder why that person wasn't helping them be considerate of other guests. Again, to me, it's NOT about the person eating the food's stomach capacity or fortitude. It's about being inconsiderate of others. And I don't think that a host should have to plan a double amount of snack food just in case one person can't take a reasonable portion size. It's not commenting on WHAT the person is eating...it's commenting on the fact that they're eating so much of it that they're not leaving any for other guests. I find it a lot more impolite for someone to eat so much of something that there's not enough left for others to enjoy than I find it impolite for someone to mention that maybe they should back off a bit and leave some for others, so we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.

And as far as the experience to learn about portion sizes, it's my opinion that that's what the parent's role is, to help them learn it, not that they need to learn it on their own...and since it was the OP's house, and the kid's parent wasn't doing anything about it, IMO it was her perogative to make sure that other guests had enough of the snacks to eat (NOT so much telling the little girl that she was eating "too much", but that she wasn't leaving _enough_ for others). And I find it odd that a preschool teacher wouldn't help kids taking too much of a snack to adjust their portion size, just like they guide kids in learning other things. Again, this is apparently an agree to disagree.

I guess I don't see what's impolite about telling a child, "You're really enjoying those nuts, aren't you? They are pretty tasty. We need to be sure we leave enough nuts for other people to eat though - take a few more and then we'll find something else to do."


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## Porcelain Interior (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
So, let's say you had another couple over for dinner. You felt the gal was eating too many nuts. Would you question her ability to judge her own stomach capacity and remove the bowl telling her to share? If you did this what message do you think it would say about you as a host and what would it say to your guest?

If an adult guest tried to dump the entire bowl of mashed potatoes onto her plate (As this child was trying to take the rest of the nuts for herself) I would be dumfounded. (Seconds after everyone has been served I wouldn't bat an eye.)

Stomach capacity has nothing to do with it. It's call sharing. No one gets all of one dish. That's ludicris no matter how much your stomach capacity holds.

If I invited one friend over and it was just her and I and she wanted to be a glutton I'd say go for it, but really who acts like that?


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
Honestly? I wouldn't be _resentful_, but I would wonder why they were inconsiderate. I would also kind of wonder why their spouse didn't quietly mention to their partner that they might want to leave some for the other guests...I know if I was involved in a party and unaware that I was eating so much of one food offered that I wasn't leaving much for the other guests, I would want someone to tell me. As far as an adult with a traumatic brain injury, I would think they would have a caretaker with them or something, and would wonder why that person wasn't helping them be considerate of other guests.

That hits on a bigger question I guess. It think even family members of people with disabilities (or kids who haven't yet learned all the rules) sometimes deserve breaks and some moments of freedom from constant monitoring. Perhaps you'd have to live with a person with a disability to imagine how exhausting it can be and how at times etiquette is best set aside for a bit. That isn't say that it should be a free for all but again this child was being violent she was simply eating more snack than the host felt was appropriate. Her mother may well have made the decision that she had much bigger fish to fry than how many nuts the child ate.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
And I don't think that a host should have to plan a double amount of snack food just in case one person can't take a reasonable portion size. It's not commenting on WHAT the person is eating...it's commenting on the fact that they're eating so much of it that they're not leaving any for other guests. I find it a lot more impolite for someone to eat so much of something that there's not enough left for others to enjoy than I find it impolite for someone to mention that maybe they should back off a bit and leave some for others, so we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.

It sounds like you are saying that there is one universally understood portion of foods and that is understood (even by four year olds and people with brain injuries). Perhaps this portion of food is appropriate for you so therefore it should be appropriate for others. As the parent of a teenage boy I can't begin to assume there is a single portion size. There are slender teenagers who easily eat three times what a nongrowing adult may need to eat. Being a good host demands thinking ahead about what your guests might need. Sure, we all make mistakes but the hope for me is that guests can simply enjoy themselves without policing.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
And I find it odd that a preschool teacher wouldn't help kids taking too much of a snack to adjust their portion size, just like they guide kids in learning other things. Again, this is apparently an agree to disagree.

And, it was exactly this sort of reason we chose this preschool. It reflected our family value of trusting children as people capable of experiencing, observing and learning. Snack was treated as a social experience and children quickly learned how to pour juice, pass snacks and make conversation. Parents were heavily involved as classroom volunteers and as I said within in a month I never saw a kid have trouble with regulation at snack time. In fact parents often marveled at kids eating foods (such as raw brocolli or hummus) that kids wouldn't eat home where parents were hovering and monitoring.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
she was simply eating more snack than the host felt was appropriate. Her mother may well have made the decision that she had much bigger fish to fry than how many nuts the child ate.

This wasn't the way I understood the post. I understood it as the child had almost finished the bowl, and then tried to dump the remaining contents of the bowl onto a plate after the OP moved the bowl - that's not "more snack than appropriate", that's ALL the snack, leaving none for others.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
It sounds like you are saying that there is one universally understood portion of foods and that is understood.

Again, my issue is not of appetites or uniform portion sizes. I am not under the illusion that everyone's stomach capacity is the same. For me, this is about not leaving enough of a snack for others to enjoy at a party. Period. This is not a meal, it's not a week's worth of food eaten among family members, so appetites and food needs and nutrition really are not part of the equation - this is 2 hours, as a guest at someone else's house, celebrating someone's birthday - the snacks are a bonus, it's the celebration that's the reason for the party. I'm not counting on party snacks to sustain my kids or contribute a significant amount to their day's nutrition. It's snacks at a party, and eating so much that you don't leave any (or only a very small amount) for other guests, no matter what your age, is not cool in my book. If you know your child has a big appetite, then feed them something at home before you go to the party.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
In fact parents often marveled at kids eating foods (such as raw brocolli or hummus) that kids wouldn't eat home where parents were hovering and monitoring.

Despite my apparent hovering and monitoring, my kids eat raw broccoli and hummus, too.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
. If you know your child has a big appetite, then feed them something at home before you go to the party.

At the very heart of that is an assumption that there is a right kind of appetite and it is your kind of appetite. I don't think it is good manners for hosts to begin from this place of judgment.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
Despite my apparent hovering and monitoring, my kids eat raw broccoli and hummus, too.

That's great. My observation is that food issues of various types are abundant in this culture and many adults really don't have a healthy relationship to food. I think it is hard to really develop that if someone is always hovering and monitoring. I was really impressed with how well preschoolers did when given the opportunity to serve themselves, learn to pass, pour their own juice and so forth. It is very different than what many parents will allow for their kids.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tbone_kneegrabber* 
it seems to be rather common at birthday parties that I have seen to have candles for all the kids to blow out when they are so little because it is so hard to resist. I know some folks do a cupcake for each guest with their own candle, birthday kid get the age # of candles, singing, everyone blows out together.

That is crazy town, and I am glad it hasn't made it to my area. Good lord, the world isn't "everyone gets exactly the same thing at exactly the same time and no one waits or is ever displeased in any way". I shudder to think what kind of kids come from that kind of parenting... It is a disservice to those kids themselves too! The real world is going to be a very upsetting place for them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I would never let my kids eat all the nuts in a bowl if there were other guests at the party, or we were there early and other guests were coming - *not because of her stomach capacity or tolerance, but because it's inconsiderate* to not leave any for others (or eat more than half the contents). The snacks are for *everyone*, not just my kid.

Thank you! (bolding mine)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
Really bottom line, I just can't understand working up a head of steam over this. It isn't like the child was running around hitting and biting.

I agree that it isn't worth getting upset over. 'Cause a child whose parent doesn't help them make socially acceptable/polite/kind choices won't be invited back - so this problem will take care of itself.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
even family members of people with disabilities (or kids who haven't yet learned all the rules) sometimes deserve breaks and some moments of freedom from constant monitoring. Perhaps you'd have to live with a person with a disability to imagine how exhausting it can be and how at times etiquette is best set aside for a bit.

It sounds like you are saying that there is one universally understood portion of foods and that is understood (even by four year olds and people with brain injuries).

I do not have a child with a disability though I do a lot of the care for my MIL with dementia - so I get a small taste of it there. I do agree caretakers or parents of people of any age without the ability to understand basic social niceties deserve breaks. I disagree that another child's birthday party is the time for it though. When you are the guest in another's home isn't the time to set aside etiquette.

Again, it isn't about food portions being the same for everyone; it is about the kindness of leaving some for others. If I found myself somewhere with my kid being overly hungry, instead of letting them eat all the snacks for the party I'd apologetically ask the host if I could make my kid a piece of toast or something else easy/quick/cheap/commonly on hand.

OP, I am honestly SHOCKED that anyone disagrees with how you handled it. Each child's parent gets first crack at keeping their child in line. If they choose not to - and the child is in your house - then you are PERFECTLY within your rights to gently redirect.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
At the very heart of that is an assumption that there is a right kind of appetite and it is your kind of appetite. I don't think it is good manners for hosts to begin from this place of judgment.

Since this is just going in circles, apparently I'm not expressing myself clearly enough - so I'll try, once more: It has nothing to do with the "right" kind of appetite - it has nothing to do with appetite at all, IMO - it has to do with being inconsiderate and not leaving food for others in a group eating/social situation. That's all. There is no "right" appetite...but if I knew my kid was a hungry kid that ate a lot, I would give them a snack before we went to a party to prevent them from eating so much that others didn't have enough. Different strokes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten*
I do not have a child with a disability though I do a lot of the care for my MIL with dementia - so I get a small taste of it there. I do agree caretakers or parents of people of any age without the ability to understand basic social niceties deserve breaks. *I disagree that another child's birthday party is the time for it though. When you are the guest in another's home isn't the time to set aside etiquette.*

*Again, it isn't about food portions being the same for everyone; it is about the kindness of leaving some for others.* If I found myself somewhere with my kid being overly hungry, instead of letting them eat all the snacks for the party I'd apologetically ask the host if I could make my kid a piece of toast or something else easy/quick/cheap/commonly on hand.

Thank YOU!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar*
I was really impressed with how well preschoolers did when given the opportunity to serve themselves, learn to pass, pour their own juice and so forth. It is very different than what many parents will allow for their kids.

You know, I can definitely see your point, when the child is at home, or even at school in everyday situations - so this is a point well taken and I do agree that it's a skill worth learning. However, as a guest at someone else's house, at someone else's party no less, is IMO *not* the time to be practicing this particular life skill, and is instead the time to practice the life skill of being a polite guest (which IMO includes leaving snacks for others and not blowing out the birthday person's candle or opening their presents).


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I would step in for the candle blowing. When you see her leaning in, maybe it would make more sense to ask the other mom directly for the help you need "Could you please make sure she doesn't blow out the candles before dd? Thanks!"

But I wouldn't even notice the food issue. Frankly, at a party, while the food is officially "for everyone", everyone does take, or even want, an equal share. That's expected. Some things typically go first, and when they are gone, they are gone. Maybe wait until all the guests are there to put the stuff out. But, once everyone is there, "you snooze, you lose".

I recently brought a fruit tray to an adult party. The strawberries were the first to go, and mostly eaten by the group of people sitting at the counter near the tray. I had some more to put out, and they were promptly eaten, too. Others at the party got no strawberries







But there were plenty of cantaloupe and grapes for the slower guests, lol!


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
There is no "right" appetite...but if I knew my kid was a hungry kid that ate a lot, I would give them a snack before we went to a party to prevent them from eating so much that others didn't have enough. Different strokes.

It isn't just a matter of topping off the tank. Some kids like to eat more different foods out of the house. The kid may not be hungry before the party but might generate a larger appetite after running around for an hour than your child does. And, really I think it is absolutely crazy to expect a four year old is going to understand the idea of the total amount of food and mathematically what portion constitutes their share. I think it makes more sense for hosts to have plenty of food to allow for variations in appetite.

And, clearly there are cultural differences when it comes to food. I would be cautious in many situations to tell my child to stop eating food in front of the host because the host may well take that as a criticism that she was not prepared to provide enough food for her guests or would leave her with sad feelings that the child was not allowed to just experience the party without stress and criticism. If someone told someone at my house to stop eating a food to save it for other people my immediate response would be to assure them that I had enough or apologize for not having more (and make a note to plan better next time).


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
I think it is absolutely crazy to expect a four year old is going to understand the idea of the total amount of food and mathematically what portion constitutes their share.

I agree. Which is why it is our job as parents to help them stop when they've had a reasonable amount.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar*
And, clearly there are cultural differences when it comes to food. I would be cautious in many situations to tell my child to stop eating food in front of the host because the host may well take that as a criticism that she was not prepared to provide enough food for her guests or would leave her with sad feelings that the child was not allowed to just experience the party without stress and criticism. If someone told someone at my house to stop eating a food to save it for other people my immediate response would be to assure them that I had enough or apologize for not having more (and make a note to plan better next time).

This is an interesting point. I have only lived in the U.S. so my perspective comes from that experience. OP, was the child/mother from the party from a culture that may follow what Roar is mentioning?

If the child/mother grew up in the U.S. then I stand by my opinion that the mother not helping her child make appropriate choices was rude. And I disagree that helping a child make appropriate choices causes that child stress or to feel criticized. Again, I am assuming the child isn't special needs. If so, then I would understand the situation more - but I'd assume the OP would have made more allowances in this regard too.

I think everyday, appropriate parenting isn't stressful or criticizing to a child. Is it their favorite thing - to be redirected - probably not. But not emotionally harmful. And it is part of learning to "be" in the world outside their house. I can understand where it might be more upsetting if the child is used to doing whatever they want at home though.

My kids' school has a number of rules posted. One is "Feel free to do anything that doesn't cause a problem for someone else." or something like that. So if the child at the party was at home, eating a group portion of a served food all by yourself may be fine with that parent. As a guest at someone else's house, that parent should help their child make a more socially acceptable choice.

To be clear, I don't put an ounce of blame/responsibility on the 4 year old. He/she hasn't been taught any better - or doesn't remember it at that moment. That is what we as parents are there for - to help them make a better choice. And that isn't rude - at least not IMO.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
And, really I think it is absolutely crazy to expect a four year old is going to understand the idea of the total amount of food and mathematically what portion constitutes their share.


I don't think I ever said that I expected a 4-yo, or any young child to get this - what I said was that I think it's the parent's responsibility to do this, and this is where we differ.

I understand that not every family or culture parents the same way or has the same customs surrounding food and parties - however, in many locations in US culture, eating so much of something that you're not leaving snacks for other guests is considered impolite (and a child not old enough to know that is often taught that by their parent). If you have a different view/experience/philosophy than that, and your surrounding community agrees, then great. In my circle of friends (who come from different cultures of origin, incidentally) it is considered rude to wipe out a snack bowl without leaving enough for others to have some. Even if the host didn't put out enough, it's still polite as a guest to only take a couple and leave some for others, at least in the places that I live and the circles I am friends with.
Not a lot to do with appetite, but about consideration for others.


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## duchess_of_dork (Oct 6, 2008)

Did I read that the OP 'physically blocked' the toddler's face from the cake?

Is that right?


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
I agree. Which is why it is our job as parents to help them stop when they've had a reasonable amount.
.

Or perhaps the host could anticipate that she is have really young children over to her house and put the nuts in little individual cups rather than in an "all you can eat" buffet style....

With the cake blowing out...my kids couldn't have cared less if their friends helped them blow out their cake.

Their thunder wasn't stolen...it just got them to cake and ice cream faster.

Not to be snarky, but I'm baffled by the "bride must have everything exactly right on her special day" wedding discussions. It's just very different in my family/culture. I wonder if some of that "I am so very special that if someone blows on my cake my day is no longer perfect" stuff comes from this kind of tension at a little kid's birthday party.

It's some nuts and cake. And playing and getting messy in the backyard. Fun times that last only moments.

I just don't understand the angst.


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Or perhaps the host could anticipate that she is have really young children over to her house and put the nuts in little individual cups rather than in an "all you can eat" buffet style....

With the cake blowing out...my kids couldn't have cared less if their friends helped them blow out their cake.

Their thunder wasn't stolen...it just got them to cake and ice cream faster.

Not to be snarky, but I'm baffled by the "bride must have everything exactly right on her special day" wedding discussions. It's just very different in my family/culture. I wonder if some of that "I am so very special that if someone blows on my cake my day is no longer perfect" stuff comes from this kind of tension at a little kid's birthday party.

It's some nuts and cake. And playing and getting messy in the backyard. Fun times that last only moments.

I just don't understand the angst.









:









I was having the same "bride's special day" flashbacks from some of the pp too!


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
With the cake blowing out...my kids couldn't have cared less if their friends helped them blow out their cake.
.

We make a wish on the birthday candles. Another kid blowing them out wouldn't ruin the day, but might warrant a "redo" so the birthday person can have their birthday wish, as is our tradition.

If you blow them all out on one breath, your wish will come true!


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
That is crazy town, and I am glad it hasn't made it to my area. Good lord, the world isn't "everyone gets exactly the same thing at exactly the same time and no one waits or is ever displeased in any way". I shudder to think what kind of kids come from that kind of parenting... It is a disservice to those kids themselves too! The real world is going to be a very upsetting place for them.

I don't think the _sharing_ an experience with friends and loved ones diminishes its specialness. In fact it teaches the birthday child that the world does not revolve around them even on the anniversary of the day you were born, because its about the love, fun, respect, community etc that we get from spending time *together* and doing things *together*


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## bronxmom (Jan 22, 2008)

I can't believe I just read three pages of posts about this









BUT, having done so...

I think generally what the OP did and what the kid/mom pair did is all pretty innocuous. However, on the food thing I agree with posters who say that it's a bit much to ask that the kid understand the need to hold back on the nuts. I also think it's a bit much for the mom to be put in the position of having to restrain her child. Prevention would be the issue for me. I would not put out snacks until all guests arrived and would try to have enough. This has definitely happened with me as a dinner host to adults. I always put out a huge spread of appetizers and a cheese plate but there's one cheese that's really good and really pricey that some people really like. Sometimes I find that it just goes so fast that it's a bit of a free for all. One thing I've done is to divide what I have in half and reserve half to put out mid-way through. I'm only raising all this because these issues definitely come out with well-behaved full grown adults.

On the other side, I have had to watch very uncomfortably as my partner (who is overweight and actually has a much higher hunger level) mentally divides out the amount of food and guests and waits to feed himself last so he doesn't take too much. I always feel so bad for him that he has to be conscious of it and is in that position. I think what those who are saying don't control the food are saying is that they don't think 5 year olds should be put in that position - of feeling bad about how much they eat. I think that's a valid concern.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I would have just let the kid eat the nuts, and made a mental note not to put them all out at once next time kids are coming over. The child did not behave well and maybe should have better been redirected, but don't lose sight of the age. I can't quite understand being so irritated by it. Also, it's entirely possible that it's reversed: the kid is very difficult and the mother, feeling ineffective, just backs off. I've seen this happen a lot.


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## terrabella (Oct 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bronxmom* 
On the other side, I have had to watch very uncomfortably as my partner (who is overweight and actually has a much higher hunger level) mentally divides out the amount of food and guests and waits to feed himself last so he doesn't take too much. I always feel so bad for him that he has to be conscious of it and is in that position. I think what those who are saying don't control the food are saying is that they don't think 5 year olds should be put in that position - of feeling bad about how much they eat. I think that's a valid concern.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
We make a wish on the birthday candles. Another kid blowing them out wouldn't ruin the day, but might warrant a "redo" so the birthday person can have their birthday wish, as is our tradition.

If you blow them all out on one breath, your wish will come true!









Love it!


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

I can't believe i read all of this when it's just about a 4 year old not having great manners (normal), a mother not doing much to parent her child (common) and a hostess agonising about the awkwardness she had to cop due to the combination (all too frequent an occurence).

I have the kid (3.5) who would want to eat all the nuts. Self-regulation doesn't seem to work with her (no doubt i am a bad parent who doesn't allow her enough self-regulation practice but there are only so many carpets i can have ruined by vomit and only so many friends i can lose due to having a brat in tow so i shall own my bad-motherhood on that front). We do not eat crisps or nuts or sweets or cake normally (they are definitely treat foods for us) so she will always make a beeline and take lots. She doesn't actually EAT what she takes, but she TAKES. I parent her in that situation. I either give her a small amount (not teeny-small - it's a celebration after all!) and remove her from the proximity of the food and otherwise entertain her, or i engage her in actively thinking of how many will come, how many will everyone want (she loves problem solving and maths) which always pulls her up with taking and gets her thinking long enough that other people have a shot at eating the goodlies too.

Honestly i think there are about 40 "Good" ways of dealing with this situation and you, OP, picked one. Don't sweat. You made sure everyone got nuts, no-one got upset and your kid managed to have a successful candle-out-blowing. At least you don't have to see this kid/mom combo again.

I don't have birthday parties in the true sense because my DD crawls under the table and sobs when people sing Happy Birthday to her (doesn't handle the focus well) so a roomful of people doing it would kill her (i too hate that sort of attention in fact). Instead we have several little parties with individual sets of friends, and a family-only birthday tea with DD, which means she never has to compete to get to her candles first. I think when i was a kid my mother would re-light and let other kids have a shot after the birthday-boy-or-girl had had their moment and wish (we also know that out-in-one-go=your-wish-comes-true here), but we only every had as many children guests as our age (i.e. only 4 other 4-year-olds, so the cake doesn't have to be re-lit 40 times/get covered in spit from over-zealous but unskilled blowing, most 8-year olds will not demand a go at blowing out candles as they have grasped the social graces of birthday parties).


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## goofymomma (Oct 6, 2009)

I think you handled it fine, even though I would've handled it differently.

I am a lot less controlling of my guests' behavior, and I wouldn't have stepped in unless the behavior is dangerous or annoying to the guest of honor. About half the birthday parties I've been to for the under kindergarten set include a smaller child trying to blow out the candles and/or "help" open the presents. I've never seen a guest of honor that minded this help.

I'm also the type that prides myself on providing more than enough food for my guests. If a guest ate all of one type of food, well, no worries, I have others. I would take it as a compliment that I provided good food.

Even with my different approach, I still think what you did was appropriate.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
I agree. Which is why it is our job as parents to help them stop when they've had a reasonable amount.

Ah, it seems a fairly common theme here with posts on gentle discipline boards that family members assume posters aren't disciplining their kids because they aren't smacking them or yelling at them in the moment. We really have no idea what goes on in the party guests home or what her goals are for her child. She may believe the most important thing is to not embarrass her child publicly or know realize that learning to know the boundaries of her stomach is something she's working on in private and today she needs to have time off to enjoy the party.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
This is an interesting point. I have only lived in the U.S. so my perspective comes from that experience. OP, was the child/mother from the party from a culture that may follow what Roar is mentioning?

The U.S. is far from being one culture and parents can have widely different experiences even if they have the same color skin. It sounds like I have a different perspective than some others here and that may have to do more with our families or origin or personal experiences with food or hosting parties.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 

In my circle of friends (who come from different cultures of origin, incidentally) it is considered rude to wipe out a snack bowl without leaving enough for others to have some. Even if the host didn't put out enough, it's still polite as a guest to only take a couple and leave some for others, at least in the places that I live and the circles I am friends with.
Not a lot to do with appetite, but about consideration for others.

As a good host I don't think the central concern is judging or evaluating the manners of your guests. Rather it makes more sense to try to extend them the benefit of the doubt and do what you can to insure they all have a good time, even if some behave in a way different from what you might like.

I'm far more concerned about the behavior of an adult host who should know better than of a four year old party guest. If you are only happy at a party if everyone acts the way you want them to you may not be a person who is happy hosting parties.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

_Ah, it seems a fairly common theme here with posts on gentle discipline boards that family members assume posters aren't disciplining their kids because they aren't smacking them or yelling at them in the moment. We really have no idea what goes on in the party guests home or what her goals are for her child. She may believe the most important thing is to not embarrass her child publicly or know realize that learning to know the boundaries of her stomach is something she's working on in private and today she needs to have time off to enjoy the party._

I agree. For a forum that aims to be gentle, understand the child's perspective, and have realistic expectations, I find there is often a _lot of_ judgment when parents can't seemingly control their child perfectly. I am *not* defending polishing off the snacks or not teaching your kid manners. I'm just trying to keep in mind that the kid is four, and for all we know, is an extremely difficult child. I've been annoyed at parents who don't discipline their kids, but that usually involves aggressive behavior and not more nuanced social norms of politeness.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
Ah, it seems a fairly common theme here with posts on gentle discipline boards that family members assume posters aren't disciplining their kids because they aren't smacking them or yelling at them in the moment. We really have no idea what goes on in the party guests home or what her goals are for her child. She may believe the most important thing is to not embarrass her child publicly or know realize that learning to know the boundaries of her stomach is something she's working on in private and today she needs to have time off to enjoy the party.

In general I would agree with you, but by the OP's description the mother indicated that she was fine with the OP intervening. "And a couple of times after I matter-of-factly dealt with her DD, "It's good for her to hear others tell her like that". " So, this isn't an issue of someone intervening against the parent's wishes/goals/desires/etc. at all.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
"And a couple of times after I matter-of-factly dealt with her DD, "It's good for her to hear others tell her like that". " So, this isn't an issue of someone intervening against the parent's wishes/goals/desires/etc. at all.

Could be though a person could easily say that because they felt uncomfortable and were being polite as a means of conflict avoidance.


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## bronxmom (Jan 22, 2008)

I'll also just jump in to say that frequently I feel like people "over discipline" their kids around me and my children. For example, if their toddler is playing with my baby, they'll scold or pull them away at the first sign of non-gentleness. Or they'll constantly remind their kids to say thank you. I often find myself saying "it's fine" to many, many things because, really, it is fine. I think it's sad that parents think they need to constantly watch their kids' behavior around others or feel like they face judgment. We are all parents and should know that kids often do unreasonable or difficult or annoying or messy things and be willing to work with that.

Also, this may be a spin-off thread, but I often hear people say that something can be age appropriate but still wrong and it's parents' job to teach their kids differently. Is this actually always true? In other words, aren't their behaviors that are age-appropriate that kids will just grow out of regardless of what their parents "teach" them. For example, isn't it likely that a kid who eats all the peanuts at 4 may very well learn to share and control themselves at 10 without the parents having to "teach" them. Sometimes I think there is this concern that if parents don't step in that kids will just naturally evolve into spoiled, self-centered grown-ups. I tend to take a more positive view of human nature.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
I'm far more concerned about the behavior of an adult host who should know better than of a four year old party guest. If you are only happy at a party if everyone acts the way you want them to you may not be a person who is happy hosting parties.

I almost don't even know how to respond to this, how you're drawing this kind of conclusion from my posts. My concern is with an adult who seems to not be teaching their child about being considerate of other party goers - not that a child isn't acting "the way I want them to", not that a child might have a large appetite, not that a child might try to blow out candles or open presents. None of my issue is with the child, or the child's behavior, and I can't believe that after all the posts I've made that that is the conclusion you're coming to. My issue is with a parent not seeming to be teaching their child consideration for others - not that the child would even necessarily listen to them, but that the parent didn't even make the effort beyond "half-heartedly" (quote from the OP) saying something with no further discussion, or doing "nothing" about the candle situation. This is my issue - the parent, NOT.THE.CHILD. As I've said before, even in consensual living situations parents are supposed to take into consideration everyone's feelings - and if I was a consensual parent in this situation and I saw a hostess was stressed out because of my kid, I'd have a talk with my kid. Consensual doesn't just mean whatever is OK between you and your kid, but it also includes others around you.

I think I have to back away from the thread, because I feel like no matter what I write it's being thrown back at me like I'm some kind of ogre. If I've been unclear, then that's my fault, but I feel like my posts are being broken apart and only certain parts being used.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

Ay yi yi. I used to know a mom like that. I had to invite her son, who was adorable and energetic, due to social obligations, but I hired a separate babysitter just for him. That tacked another thirty bucks to the cost of each party, but I preferred to pay it than to talk with the mother about it. The mom just sat chatting, oblivious to the fact that he was doing things like trying to dump cups of lemonade on the birthday cake right before the birthday girl had the chance to blow out the candles. The babysitter had to discreetly tail him during the entire gathering, arms length away, blocking his hands before he hit other kids in the face, threw things into the toilet, or destroyed things. Fortunately, I had seen him in action at other kids' parties so I knew what to expect.

The trick was that I could not let anyone know that I had hired a babysitter just for him, so it appeared that I was hiring a birthday party assistant, which sounds ridiculous, I know, but I could not give my own daughters special parties and take care of the needs of the other children while trying to manage him as well.

I avoided them at all times other than the obligatory parties. The problem was not with the little boy, it was with his indifferent mother.

Obviously, this is not as extreme. A kid ate too many nuts for there to be enough nuts for everyone.

In this case, I think it is entirely appropriate to make sure all the guests have enough goodies. As I became a more experienced birthday party hostess, I started to gravitate towards having way too much food and drink or having individually prepared and presented servings so that everyone got served one serving before anyone got seconds. So, in this case, to pre-plan, I would have individual cups of nuts for each kid or have so many nuts that it would not even be a concern. I sent home one pizza per guest at our last birthday party because I over-ordered. If I had not over-ordered, I would have had plates of one slice per kid and then made sure everyone got a slice and then a second slice and so forth. I'm not critiquing, just passing on something I learned the hard way.

I think OP handled this situation really well under the circumstances. Even though she is moving, this may come up in the future at some point with other kids, so it is worthwhile to explore and figure out what to do.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bronxmom* 

Also, this may be a spin-off thread, but I often hear people say that something can be age appropriate but still wrong and it's parents' job to teach their kids differently. Is this actually always true? In other words, aren't their behaviors that are age-appropriate that kids will just grow out of regardless of what their parents "teach" them. For example, isn't it likely that a kid who eats all the peanuts at 4 may very well learn to share and control themselves at 10 without the parents having to "teach" them. Sometimes I think there is this concern that if parents don't step in that kids will just naturally evolve into spoiled, self-centered grown-ups. I tend to take a more positive view of human nature.

This is a thought provoking post and I'd love to see more discussion of these topics.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
My concern is with an adult who seems to not be teaching their child about being considerate of other party goers

I think it is really impossible to know the full situation of another family and draw these conclusions. We don't know the baseline this child is starting from - her behavior that looked terrible may actually reflect immense progress because she wasn't having a tantrum or biting someone. We have no idea what her mother is teaching her or what they are working on at the moment. They may have far greater concerns than the nuts or the candles. The mother may know her child best and know she can't absorb information in that setting so making efforts to correct her would be for no reason other than demonstrating she is trying so someone wouldn't trash her behind her back on a message board later.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I. If I've been unclear, then that's my fault, but I feel like my posts are being broken apart and only certain parts being used.

You're not unclear at all! I know exactly what you're saying, it's very simple and I agree. You're not blaming the child, you expect parents to parent and NO that doesn't mean yelling and smacking. Good grief there are certainly many things that can be said to the child that don't shame. Courtesy and consideration go a long way when you're a guest in one's home. Do I have the gist of it







?

And I agree with you.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

I don't think you did anything wrong since it was your dc's party she was trying to take over. Her mother should have tried harder but since she didn't you were within your right to stop her from doing the things you didn't want her to do.


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## widemouthedfrog (Mar 9, 2006)

At our four-year-old's birthday party, the same two things happened - almost.
I was quite happy to let one little girl eat nearly all of the strawberries. I figured that she liked strawberries. She sat at the table and ate almost all of them.

I did ask another little guy if he could hold off on eating the cake until dd blew out her candles, though. He was standing beside her and eating it as she tried to blow them out.

I don't have a problem politely asking kids to behave in a more socially-appropriate manner, but I tend to let the situation be unless it's going to cause a conflict. In the first instance, no one cared if the little girl ate the berries. In the second instance, my dd very much cared that someone was eating the cake while she was trying to blow out the candles, so I politely asked him to wait a moment, then I served dd and the little boy.

I work with little kids, so 4 year old behaviour really doesn't bother me most of the time. Also, I think that because I am around a lot of different small children, I have no problem asking them if they could do x,y, or z. I do the same thing around adults.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Re: age appropriate behaviour.

My DD acts like a 3 year old, because she is a 3 year old. When she does annoying things which inconvenience or irritate others (like kicking the back of the seat in front on the bus hard and loud, or shouting songs she learned at home in cafe's at full volume while those around us are trying to eat in relative peace or picking her nose enthusiastically and then doing a loud show and tell with the results to anyone who is within earshot) i stop her. I ask her not to kick the bus seat, not to shout indors and to please stop picking her nose. I explain to her that the old gentlman in front of us doesn't want to ride the bus on a seat being continually kicked, the people at the next table want to hear what one another are saying and no-one but the doctor wants to know about the contents of her nostrils. Is what she is doing normal for a 3 year old? Obviously yes. But i'm not aiming to teach her how to be a 3-year-old, she has a pretty good handle on that, i'm aiming to equip her with all the tools she needs to be 20 or 30 or 57. And i only get about 17 years to do it, and the older she is the less effect i will have (she will believe, quite rightly, that at 13, 15, 17 she is capable of judging situations and modifying her own behaviour accordingly herself), so i'm trying to teach her most of it now.

It is possible if i never said anything about the seat she would one day, aged 4 or 8 or 12 suddenly realise that it was an annoying thing to do and stop doing it, but i'm not going to wait and find out. It's also possible the old gentleman in front will one day turn around and scream into her face to "effing stop it" (i'm in *******, where the c-word is used to mean "him over there" and EVERYone seems to swear every 3rd word) and i'd prefer that didn't happen to her, however effective it might be long term. My observations before and since i've had her is that if parents teach nothing eventually the world steps in to teach and those lessons are often harsher and more final. I have chosen to try to protect her from that and lubricate her way into the world by teaching social niceties and acceptable behaviour from a young age. I do not shout or scream or punish, i just ask her nicely not to do whatever-it-is, explain why not and on we go with our day. To me it is a bit like taking a foreign friend out and about and explaining the local culture to them so they can fit in how they want to.

I know there are some parents who have chosen NOT to say anything about behaviour that is age appropriate, in case doing so causes some unwanted chages in the child and prevents them finding their own inner barriers to modify their behaviour with. To me that doesn't seem a very big risk as i find myself to be a relatively considerate and moral person and i was raised as i am raising DD. I don't assume the consensual method WILL do harm, merely that it's not something i want to do or think will work for my family. I would worry the whole time and hate seeng her behave terribly so she could work out for herself what is appropriate. Besides i have been doing it as i do for so long now that she seeks guidance from me and it'd be rather unfair of me to suddenly withdraw it. I do not see that how we work together has or is harming her so far.

Roar i think to be happy with a child of four who is disrupting a birthday party and let it go on with its disruption merely because it ISN'T biting anyone or throwing a tantrum is scraping the silver lining barrel a bit moe than most would care to. I would expect the ability to refrain from assaulting other guests and wrecking the day for all with a tantrum to be a fairly basic minimum in a 4 year old, and if my 4yo DD DID bit and/or tantrum i would remove her, just as i would correct her if she was eating all the nuts.


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## Veronika01 (Apr 16, 2007)

OP, initially I got my back up and thought your approach was inappropriate, but then I stepped back and realized I was annoyed because of the way the people in my life approached these things. You see, there is one particular mother who feels it is her place to always correct my children. I'll correct them, they'll stop what they're doing or stand there listening to me and she'll just correct them again or talk over me to correct them. So I do take great offense at people correcting my kids, mainly because I do not sit back and let them have free reign. I think you handled it in a very respectful manner, given that her mother didn't physically intervene.

As for the birthday cake, I always make sure that I'm very close to my children when birthday candles are being blown out because I KNOW they just can't resist that temptation. I've even gone so far as to cup my hand over my son's mouth so he couldn't blow out the candle after he kept trying to take puffs at it after repeatedly being told it was not his birthday. What annoys me is that I'll cut the exact piece of cake every child wants when it's time to cut the cake, being that they are invited guests in my house, but at the last 2 parties my son was snubbed when he made the same request.







I guess that is a whole other post.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Or perhaps the host could anticipate that she is have really young children over to her house and put the nuts in little individual cups rather than in an "all you can eat" buffet style....

So a 4 year old who didn't know that she couldn't eat all the nuts out of a big bowl would somehow understand that she couldn't have six or eight or fourteen little cups of nuts? I doubt it. And if her mom wouldn't stop her from eating all the nuts in the serving bowl, I also doubt she would stop her from eating little cup after little cup.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
Ah, it seems a fairly common theme here with posts on gentle discipline boards that family members assume posters aren't disciplining their kids because they aren't smacking them or yelling at them in the moment. We really have no idea what goes on in the party guests home or what her goals are for her child. She may believe the most important thing is to not embarrass her child publicly or know realize that learning to know the boundaries of her stomach is something she's working on in private and today she needs to have time off to enjoy the party.

I respectfully disagree. I do not think - and I'd assume others may agree - that hitting or yelling are the only ways to discipline. You can redirect or use humor or have a secret signal (my dd1 used to chew with her mouth wide open when she was seven or eight. I made up a signal that only she and I knew - when I scratched my nose, she was reminded to chew with her mouth closed. Worked fine. No embarrassment but it helped her remember to change the behavior.

You are right; we don't know what they may be working on at home. But if the kid behaves outside the social norm, as the host, I'd appreciate a heads up email or call on that - *especially* if mom is planning on handing me her parenting responsibilities on top of the eight kids/candles/cake/gift writing down for thank yous later/photos I'm already juggling...







If mom needs some time off, I'd appreciate if she took it not when I will have to pick up the job. It is rude to assume that everyone else is fine with her child (insert inappropriate behavior here - hitting, grabbing, blowing out someone else's birthday candles, whatever).

And gently and quietly reminding or asking a child to redirect an inappropriate behavior is NOT embarrassing them IMO. It can be done respectfully - and is every day by parents. If that mom doesn't think so or isn't up for the task currently then she should either a) keep her child home or b) send her child with someone who will help him make good choices.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bronxmom* 
frequently I feel like people "over discipline" their kids around me and my children. For example, if their toddler is playing with my baby, they'll scold or pull them away at the first sign of non-gentleness. I think it's sad that parents think they need to constantly watch their kids' behavior around others or feel like they face judgment. We are all parents and should know that kids often do unreasonable or difficult or annoying or messy things and be willing to work with that.

aren't their behaviors that are age-appropriate that kids will just grow out of regardless of what their parents "teach" them. For example, isn't it likely that a kid who eats all the peanuts at 4 may very well learn to share and control themselves at 10 without the parents having to "teach" them. Sometimes I think there is this concern that if parents don't step in that kids will just naturally evolve into spoiled, self-centered grown-ups. I tend to take a more positive view of human nature.

I GREATLY appreciated parents who would redirect their toddler if he/she was being too rough with my infant! Why wait until the baby is hurt? I think stopping at the early signs of "too rough" is perfect. It isn't sad and it isn't to keep from facing judgment; it is to protect the baby from getting hurt. I have three kids; I absolutely know that kids often do unreasonable/difficult/annoying/messy things and I am willing to work with that - but not ignore it. It is a parent's JOB to pay attention to that.

Will they eventually grow out of behaviors - sure. But I don't want to be around them while we wait for that to happen. I have zero tolerance for people who won't help their kids make good choices; it makes me mad as I think it is unfair to their child who is then known as the rude/mean/violent kid. I just choose not to be around them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
My concern is with an adult who seems to not be teaching their child about being considerate of other party goers - not that a child isn't acting "the way I want them to", not that a child might have a large appetite, not that a child might try to blow out candles or open presents. None of my issue is with the child, or the child's behavior, and I can't believe that after all the posts I've made that that is the conclusion you're coming to. My issue is with a parent not seeming to be teaching their child consideration for others - not that the child would even necessarily listen to them, but that the parent didn't even make the effort beyond "half-heartedly" (quote from the OP) saying something with no further discussion, or doing "nothing" about the candle situation. This is my issue - the parent, NOT.THE.CHILD.

I understand completely! And I agree with you.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Treasuremapper* 
The mom just sat chatting, oblivious to the fact that he was doing things like trying to dump cups of lemonade on the birthday cake right before the birthday girl had the chance to blow out the candles. The babysitter had to discreetly tail him during the entire gathering, arms length away, blocking his hands before he hit other kids in the face, threw things into the toilet, or destroyed things.

I avoided them at all times other than the obligatory parties. *The problem was not with the little boy, it was with his indifferent mother*.

Really sad for that little boy who is avoided and disliked because his mom won't do her job. And angry at the mother for shirking her responsibilities. What is WRONG with people???

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
I think it is really impossible to know the full situation of another family and draw these conclusions. We don't know the baseline this child is starting from - her behavior that looked terrible may actually reflect immense progress because she wasn't having a tantrum or biting someone. We have no idea what her mother is teaching her or what they are working on at the moment. They may have far greater concerns than the nuts or the candles. The mother may know her child best and know she can't absorb information in that setting so making efforts to correct her would be for no reason other than demonstrating she is trying so someone wouldn't trash her behind her back on a message board later.

I think the OP described a mother, her child and herself. They arrived early or first to the party. So it wasn't an overstimulating situation.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
My DD acts like a 3 year old, because she is a 3 year old. When she does annoying things which inconvenience or irritate others (like kicking the back of the seat in front on the bus hard and loud, or shouting songs she learned at home in cafe's at full volume while those around us are trying to eat in relative peace or picking her nose enthusiastically and then doing a loud show and tell with the results to anyone who is within earshot) i stop her. I ask her not to kick the bus seat, not to shout indors and to please stop picking her nose. I explain to her that the old gentlman in front of us doesn't want to ride the bus on a seat being continually kicked, the people at the next table want to hear what one another are saying and no-one but the doctor wants to know about the contents of her nostrils. Is what she is doing normal for a 3 year old? Obviously yes. But i'm not aiming to teach her how to be a 3-year-old, she has a pretty good handle on that, i'm aiming to equip her with all the tools she needs to be 20 or 30 or 57. And i only get about 17 years to do it, and the older she is the less effect i will have (she will believe, quite rightly, that at 13, 15, 17 she is capable of judging situations and modifying her own behaviour accordingly herself), so i'm trying to teach her most of it now.

It is possible if i never said anything about the seat she would one day, aged 4 or 8 or 12 suddenly realise that it was an annoying thing to do and stop doing it, but i'm not going to wait and find out. It's also possible the old gentleman in front will one day turn around and scream into her face to "effing stop it" and i'd prefer that didn't happen to her, however effective it might be long term. My observations before and since i've had her is that if parents teach nothing eventually the world steps in to teach and those lessons are often harsher and more final. I have chosen to try to protect her from that and lubricate her way into the world by teaching social niceties and acceptable behaviour from a young age. I do not shout or scream or punish, i just ask her nicely not to do whatever-it-is, explain why not and on we go with our day.

I know there are some parents who have chosen NOT to say anything about behaviour that is age appropriate, in case doing so causes some unwanted chages in the child and prevents them finding their own inner barriers to modify their behaviour with. To me that doesn't seem a very big risk as i find myself to be a relatively considerate and moral person and i was raised as i am raising DD.

You are my new favorite!!


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