# Stollers???? AP or Mainstream?



## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

I was reading the Mainstream thread in TAO and several people noted strollers as being mainstream.

I have a stroller and use it when we go on walks or to the mall for window shopping.
My dd is 27-28 lbs and doesn't walk. After an hour or so my back (with which I've always had problems) begins to hurt.
She seems happy in the stroller so I thought we were doing good.

So does that make me, gulp, mainstream?









And do you automatically judge a parent using one?


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## grian (Feb 26, 2003)

Personally I don't think strollers are mainstream. I love our stroller collection. Having a good stroller for a day out at the zoo/mall/park or a quick errand where a slung toddler is too much is great. I will admit to having a stroller obsession that rivals the likes of my diaper fetish.

That said, I do think people are "mainstream" when they leave their infants/children screaming in strollers when they are perfectly able to pick them up and carry/sling them untill they are happy to try strolling again.


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## Very Snoofly (Jan 13, 2003)

I was kind of taken aback the first time I read that strollers were "anti-AP" too.

We've always used a stroller...I had a Baby Bjorn but never got the hang of it (Mallory seemed to hate it), and didn't "discover" slings until she was 9 months old. By that time she weighed 25 lbs and I could never sling her for an extended period of time. So yeah, for shopping trips and walks around the block, the stroller's it.

That said, if she ever starts to fuss or complain, I'll take her out and carry or, or (now) let her walk.

So maybe it's the "misuse" of strollers that's "mainstream"--ie, putting your baby in a stroller and then ignoring his/her cries for attention?

Edited to add: I put the word "mainstream" in quotes to indicate I meant it in the way that the word is generally used on MDC--in other words, equivalent "inattentive" or "detached" or just plain "bad." But I really disagree with that notion. I don't think that being mainstream automatically makes you a bad or inattentive parent. My sisters, for example, parent in ways that would be considered very "mainstream" by people on this board--but they have three happy, bright, healthy boys between them, all of whom are very secure in their mama's love. And they wouldn't ignore their boys' cries either, even though all three were vaxed and circed and love Bob the Builder and chicken nuggets. Sorry,







T


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## Dragon (Nov 4, 2002)

I think it's silly to label anything as either AP or mainstream. It's a spectrum, not an either/or situation. I think it's perfectly possible to use a stroller in an AP way, and I believe I do.

People sure can be quick to judge, but I think you have to do what is best for you and your family and ignore the critics who have not walked in your shoes.


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## LoneFemale (May 4, 2003)

I don't know what TAO is or why strollers are considered mainstream (which I'm guessing isn't a good thing?), but AP, to me, isn't about what equipment is used or how others perceive you. It's about being in tune with your baby, child etc. and the way you go about it. NOT every mom who breastfeeds considers herself AP, nor is every mom who uses a crib or stroller "mainstream". I would hate to think that moms feel they need to follow a certain set of standards to be considered one or the other. I've been practicing most of the ideas for AP long before anyone put a name to it. As a matter of fact, when I first heard about AP, I was under the impression that it was a very extremist group of moms!







:LOL I realized soon after that I was given the wrong impression by a one-sided, bias view. Could that be what's happened here?


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## NoHiddenFees (Mar 15, 2002)

I'll admit to getting irritated by "strollers aren't AP" comments. I carried her as long as I could (she outgrew her baby Bjorn before four months and between my back and her distaste we never found a sling we could both handle) but by four months I had no choice but to use a stroller. Yeah, I probably sound more than a little defensive... I had these Dr. Sears induced fantasies about being neglectful if we didn't practice slinging for the first year, etc., etc. but between her size (almost 35 lbs by a year) and the reasons cited above, it just wasn't going to happen.


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## LoneFemale (May 4, 2003)

Sorry---TAO is Talk Amongst Ourselves right? I just realized it is another board! :LOL I haven't been here in a while and this was the first thread I opened.


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## dentente (Aug 14, 2002)

We use/used them. I would be a cripple trying to carry a 35 pound, 38 inch tall 2 year old. I think it's all in how you use it. If you keep the child a prisoner in it then you are misusing the stroller. They need to walk if they can. They need to 'splore with supervision and learn to love walking. My stepson was kept prisoner in the stroller as a toddler and now he HATES to walk. I have never seen a child complain more about walking. I daresay I have seen moms keep their kids in a sling more than I thought was wise once they were able to walk. It's easier than wrangling them and it's an easy trap to fall into. You can misuse any tool and a stroller is but a tool. So is a sling or backpack.

Denny


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## delighted.mama (Jan 29, 2003)

I, too, have been haunted by Dr. Sears' comments about carrying dd everywhere for the first year. I felt like it was all or nothing. I either do it and am a "good AP" parent, or I don't and I am a "bad" mainstream parent. At one point, I became so anti-stroller that I almost got rid of all of them. But, they *do* serve a useful purpose, I have found. IMO, I think it is unfair to characterize strollers as being Anit-AP.

I know that being an AP parent is very important to me, but having to live up to some unrealistic standard, such as never using a stroller, is counter-productive, I think. I love slinging my dd. I still do, even though she is 26-27 lbs and 17 months old. But, it is not realistic to always carry her. She doesn't want to either! When we are at the store for a while, it is easier to put her in the cart. If I am going to walk to the grocery store, it is too hard to carry her and the groceries (which I have done on a number of occasions because, God forbid I break down and use the stroller!







) Now, however, I have more of a realistic approach.

I think there is a time and a place for strollers. I am irked by people who constantly keep their kids in strollers. Let them move around, for goodness sakes,I want to yell. My SIL constantly kept her dd in one of those carriers. It drove me nuts. DD, on the other, hand, was usually in our arms, in a sling, or allowed to explore on her own. I also don't like it when parents just aimlessly push the stroller around while the child is sitting there, bored out of their minds. To me, that is like just putting the child in a play pen or any other "mommy substitute," simply because it is convenient for you, not because it is good for the child. But, I digress......

I'm glad you brought this up. It is a topic that I feel I have struggled with. Kind of a love-hate relationship. Even now, when I put dd in the jogger stroller (because I like to run), I question whether I should carry her in a sling and walk instead!







:

So, to answer your quesiton, the *over-use* of the stroller can be kind of a mainstream thing, but the limited use of a stroller is simply a convenient mode of transportation, IMO!!

Libby


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

I don't worry about living up to some label.
AP.. Mainstream.. whatever.

I think about it the issue and educate myself and then go with what I think is best.. and I don't care what other people label it.

That said.. I use both a sling and a stroller.
The stroller is for when I go on a loooong walk and my back would hurt if I carry DS the whole time. I also use the stroller if I am going to pick up some things at the store on our walk.
I take the sling with me, and sometimes will sling or carry him for a while if he wants out of the stroller.

I listen to DS and to myself. He likes both the stroller and the sling.. but he can also get tired of both.. so I never force him to stay in either.

I am fine with my judicious use of the stroller.. ds loves it.. so I really am not going to be concerned if someone says it is "mainstream" or "not ap."


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

IMO, babywearing is an integral part of AP. The recognition that babies evolved to be in almost continous close, physical contact with another human being; the physiological, immunological, and emotional benefits of this; the facilitation of bonding; not to mention the sheer pleasure of holding baby close...are clearly documented and are a strong tenet of AP.

Thus, I believe that AP mamas do their best to hold and carry their babies as much as possible. I think "mainstream" parents often either don't realize this (how could holding a baby make them healthier??) or they actively disagree (too much holding will spoil them). IME, most "mainstream" moms fall into the former category. For me, our "stroller culture" prevents women from ever learning that wearing your baby is an option - a good one and a pleasurable one. It's sort of like breastfeeding in public - by doing it we are making BFing appear "normal" and we are educating by example. That is one reason I so love wearing my baby, and why (for example) when our LLL group marches in this year's Canada Day parade, we are encouraging everyone to wear their baby - it sends a message!

I wore my baby for the first 7 months of her life, and only then did I buy a stroller (she started to get a bit too heavy for me). I loooove my stroller, and so does DD. But I admit when I see mothers with little babies in strollers, *especially* newborns, I feel sad for them. How could they NOT want to hold their babies close to them? I still sling DD around the house, and when we go on walks through the woods (uneven terrain, and I don't need to carry grocery bags, lol) and I love the close contact with her. I wish that more mothers knew the joy of slinging a newborn or small baby who is just peeping out and enjoying the world from mama's "pouch".

So no, I am not against strollers, and having one I absolutely love I can understand their appeal at all ages. Having and using a stroller is not "non-AP", but I would venture to say that AP mamas who have strollers use them deliberately (ie. with thought and for specific reasons) and still wear/hold/carry their babies for the majority of the day when at home or in other situations. THAT, to me, is the difference.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I agree with Piglet. I slung my son until he got to heavy and then he's in a stroller or grocery cart ( now he walks around). I sling my babies whenever I go out until they are about a year to 18 months. Then it just gets to heavy. I too see little babies in strollers and wonder how their parent can resist holding them. They are so little it wouldn't be that hard. I notice people give us weird looks because myself or DH are always carrying our 7 month old (20 lb) little girl. I think the misuse of anything is what makes it "mainstream" I had a swing in the first couple of months that I would use when I absolutely had to attend to elijah. But I would never ever leave her in it when she was upset or for any length of time. The same goes with cribs IMO. I do not co-sleep, have no desire to do so as I am a severe insomniac (bipolar) and I go insane if someone is touching me while I sleep. My kids are in cribs from day one. But they have never cried it out and I am there in a flash if they call for me. So in my case I don't think there is anything wrong with a crib. Its all in how you use the tools IMO not the tools themselves that are bad.


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

I agree that what is mainstream about strollers is the abuse of them. That when we talk about strollers as a mainstream item, we are talking about people who stick a child in a stroller to get where they are going so that they don't have to 'deal' with the child exploring.

We use strollers a lot. We have a collection (a double stroller, a Jeep stroller, an umbrella stroller). But they get used for things like trips to the mall, where I need them in the stroller for my own sanity so that I can get the shopping done without running after them all the time. Or we'll use a stroller when we are walking down the very narrow sidewalk on the very busy street above ours on the way to the park. I am just more comfortable that way.

But I would never dream of, say, sticking the kids in the stroller for a day at the zoo. I mean, what are we going to the zoo for if not so that they can explore things? I see SOOOO many kids stuck in strollers at that zoo (we have an annual pass and go at least weekly) and they can't see a darned thing, and sit there looking sooo bored, poor things. This, IMO, is the mainstream abuse of strollers. What on earth is that kid in there for? So that YOU don't have to be patient and wait while your kid would rather check out pigeons than lions? I mean, sure, you'd rather go through the savannah exibit, but who is the adult here? Who is the trip for?

About the whole sling thing; I never really got it. I was never comfortable with it. If anything, I carried them in a snugli or similar. It may just be that I am too small for the slings that we had (they always seemed to slip and hang too low). And my son in particular grew too big for carrying super-fast. I mean, here is a kid who was over 20 lbs by 2 months. Forget putting all that weight on my shoulders all the time. So we started strollering pretty early for both kids.

But I think that what the whole issue boils down to is whether the kids are being put in the stroller when they really shouldn't be. My kids make hikes on foot, walk through the zoo on foot, and when we are going to malls or stores just to look around, they go on foot. We really only use the stroller to get them places or when we can't deal with them running around on their own.


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## ebethmom (Jan 29, 2002)

My son liked his stroller better than the sling! Once he was about 6 months old, he liked to make eye contact and wave to people from the stroller. He didn't have much patience for the sling at that stage.

Last summer, we would take long walks. Ds would start off in the stroller, then ask to be carried about halfway through.

Now he doesn't want either! "Walk, walk," he demands! He trotted up and down every hill at the zoo last weekend.

I agree with many of the other posts - AP is a communication spectrum. I believe that strollers can fit into an AP household. It's all in how they are used.

That said, I hope to use our sling more with the next baby. I started off with a NoJo and thought I just didn't like slinging. I got an Over the Shoulder Baby Holder when ds was 7 months, and wish that we'd had it sooner!


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I double dog dare any wo/man to come up and lecture me about stroller use once my twins are here, newborn or not. There should be a special place in hell for absolutes.







If people want to get into a "more AP than AP" contest, they can do it on their own time and not waste mine with it. ;>

I tend not to be a stroller user except on long walks. I definitely try to avoid their use in large crowds, because people tend to be stupid about anything that's below their eye level. (Just ask anyone who uses a wheelchair), and I cannot tell you how many times I've seen little kids get cigarette ash burns, ect. at fairs and such because people didn't 'see' something right in front of them.

However, I will probably use our triple stroller more often once they guys are here. A) it's a F-in' big thing that makes people stare (no vision problems there), and for the first time it's going to be ME that's the menace (I have very poor spatial perception, so I hope I don't run over too many people wih it). B) It is the ONLY way I'll be able to get out of the damn house with all of the kids. Sorry, but part of AP means that Mama needs to not go completely cabin-crazy and end up resenting the kids. And I will use whatever tools are best for me to ensure that we all get a change of scenery. C) Unless people are going to volunteer an extra set of hands to help me out with three kids under two, then really? They should keep their insinuations and assumptions to themselves. 

Yes, I know. When people make thoughtless statements like "strollers are not AP", they are talking about everyone NOT in my situation, right? Wrong. When blanket generalizations like that are made, you ARE talking about me. It's kind of like saying, "I love you BUT..." Sure wish that people were more compassionate about things like that. Some people have bad backs and can't sling. Some babies hate it. And making judgements about people based on a brief time spent with them at the mall or on the sidelines of a baby class is probably not very accurate or smart, and is doing the same exact thing that people bellyache about 'mainstream' people doing. Plus, I bet some of the anti-stroller people here would probably assume that I never carried or slung my daughter, because she'll most likely be in the triple with the boys...when that is very far from the truth.

Sorry, just a little rant there.


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

Quote:

But I admit when I see mothers with little babies in strollers, *especially* newborns, I feel sad for them. How could they NOT want to hold their babies close to them?
Perhaps they do want to hold their babies but have bad backs, or are recovering from an unplanned c-section, or having their gall bladder removed, or don't know any better

Those all applied to me when my dd was a newborn.


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

I would say that no, strollers by definition are not AP... but an AP mom may choose to use them on the few occasions where she feels it is best and still be a good AP mom.

There are times where doing things we wouldn't usually do are necessary.

I personally do not like strollers at all! When we took DS to Disney World at eight-teen months, my DH rented a stroller for him. We had it for like five minutes. We were in the Animal Kingdom, and I felt like he was missing everything- only seeing legs, legs, legs. I couldn't talk to him or point things out to him because he couldn't see me and was on an entirely different level than we were. Plus it was just generally so hard to manuver in the stroller, and so easy and simple to just carry the little guy.

OT a little, but the only thing that has ever suprised me by being called un-AP is high chairs. I see why all other things are considered evil, but I cannot fathom holding a 14-month old on my lap while they eat/play with pasta or whatever!


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

I have a jogging stroller and absolutely love it, as does ds (now 2.5). I generally use it only for when we go for a long, fast walk to get some exercise. We keep up a constant stream of chatter and singing, so feel plenty connected to him







However, sometimes when we walk to the playground he actually asks to ride in his stroller. He will say that he doesn't want to walk and I tell him that I can either give him a piggy-back ride (in the sling) or he can ride in the stroller - he invariably chooses the stroller.

Yep, AP - all about meeting your children's needs... not about the implements you use to do it.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by PerfectLove_
*OT a little, but the only thing that has ever suprised me by being called un-AP is high chairs. I see why all other things are considered evil, but I cannot fathom holding a 14-month old on my lap while they eat/play with pasta or whatever!







*
It doesn't surprise me. Apply the same logic you would use for strollers.

Most high chairs are:

1. Plastic
2. Restrictive
3. Allow you to get away with not holding your children during an important activity.
4. Are primarily for your convenience until the child is old enough to use a booster.

Perhaps one of the reasons why it's harder for you to judge high chairs this way is because they're a tool that you personally have more of a use for, unlike a stroller?

In my not so humble opinion, high chairs can be abused just as easily as strollers, as far as inattentiveness. Why on earth some people harshly judge people who use things with wheels MORE than something stationary is beyond me. I still think it's a better policy to view these things first and foremost as available tools, rather than must-haves or must-never-haves.


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## Elphaba (Nov 19, 2001)

i do think strollers are a mainstream thing, because EVERYONE has one! :LOL seriously, very few parents don't buy a stroller, thus it's a common baby item, thus it is mainstream.
why is that bad??????







:
it's not. there are people who call themselves AP who you couldn't pay me to have in my home and people who wouldn't know AP is even a label who i really like.
and why are we all so worked up about what is and what isn't AP? aren't we all doing the best we can for our kids?
i didn't use a sling to be different, i used it because i thought it was a great invention. i didn't buy a stroller because everyone else had one, so why would i stop using it just because it doesn't meet someone else's standards of AP-er than thou.
screw that. enjoy your kids and the hell with what anyone else is doing. if it's working for you, keep doing it!


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## BowenTherapist (Apr 25, 2002)

i personally don't like to use a stroller.
they are bulky and i only have one dd so it is just much easier to pop her in the sling. also i like to wear her for all of the reasons piglet already said. also from a TCC perspective i think it is very important to carry babes.

dd is 20 lbs and i have found her wt completely doable, but i have great slings.(rebozo and a packababy) if i only had a nojo or an otsbh i would not be carrying her!


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

I have two under two, what would I do without a stroller? Chase my two year old around the stores adn never get anything accomplished. I ususally have the baby in teh sling, my toddler in the stroller and my kindergartener(is that a word?) walking beside me. I think for some parents mainstream or not a stroller is a necsecity(sp).

I forgot to add. When I only have the baby with me I do not use a stroller, to much of a hassle putting it in adn out of the car, plus nursing, it's much easier to use a sling when you only have one.


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

I have to agree with Megan, and Dragonfly. I was suprised to see strollers "labeled" mainstream. Come on







: I have used both a stroller and a sling. My ds loved his sling, but in time we used the stroller, and if he wasn't happy, we took him out. Both of the kids liked the stroller. My ds is only 2, but he is a solid 45 lbs...solid, not heavy. I can't carry him everywhere and he is too little to stay with me all the time. So, there are times the stroller is for his safety at this age. I think attachment parenting is about alot more than strollers and slings. My 2 cents







:


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## dentente (Aug 14, 2002)

I think it's dangerous to do things based on how you think others will perceive you. It means you are worrying more about being judged than you are about making a choice that suits you best or feels right to you. I think we have to lose these terms and just go straight for parenting as best we can using the tools that fit the bill.

My friend just went through a bizarre battle with her husband because she's preg with her third and their little old sedan was just too small for three kids in carseats. Her dh said he would "not be caught dead in a minivan". Excuse me? What? You'd worry more about what people think than the safety and comfort of your children? You'd rather drive something trendy and uncomfortable than have room and safety for these kids of yours? Priorities are all straight there, buddy. Duh! We all let him have it. She has her minivan. All is good. Sometimes you gotta defend yourself to understand why you do the things you do.

Denny


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## Cinder (Feb 4, 2003)

Janelle absolutely loves her stroller! Every day we go for a walk in the neighborhood in it. We also use it at malls. I always bring the sling in the little basket and then if she wants out or gets tired I put her in the sling instead, well if DH isn't with us. If DH is with us Janelle is carried everywhere by him unless she visably wants me or her stroller.


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## CrunchyChristian (May 28, 2003)

I don't consider it mainstream. The way I see is: if the baby wants to be held and you pick him/her up or visa versa, that's still as AP as anything. It's when people put their kids in one and then ignore them that probably gives APers such a bad taste in their mouths.

DS refuses to use a stroller, so DH and I take turns wearing him when we're out. Though he won't use the Maya, he'll only use a pack







:. Men







.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Tigerchild - Are you naming your twins after the poet Dylan Thomas or is it just a coincidence? He is my favorite poet...do not go gentle into that good night...


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## DaisyD (Apr 6, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Tigerchild_
*3. Allow you to get away with not holding your children during an important activity.
*
I don't understand. I like holding my DH's hand when we go for walks, so I can see why my dd likes to be held when we are out and about (and she likes her stroller too).
But I don't get it, why would I hold my child while they are eating?
Obviously I am talking about solid food.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by DaisyD_
*I don't understand. I like holding my DH's hand when we go for walks, so I can see why my dd likes to be held when we are out and about (and she likes her stroller too).
But I don't get it, why would I hold my child while they are eating?
Obviously I am talking about solid food.*
Daisy, I'm using the same kind of black and white thinking that I see generalized about strollers. See, when people launch into anti-stroller tirades, one thing I hear over and over and over is "it's just a way to get out of holding your kid". Well, yes, I suppose. When I'm travelling a good distance or in hot weather, I kind of like not having to add to my carrying load or have someone's hot body pressed up against me. If I have a bad back, I enjoy being able to walk around and enjoy time with my kid without having the experience marred by pain. If I am trying to wrangle three kids and try to get us in and out of an errand trip with minimal fuss so we have more time to do something actually fun and unrestricted (like running around the playground or park or splashing naked in the pool at home), then I enjoy the opportunity to do that without having to resort to leashes (unsafe) or yelling or me devolving into tears of frustration.

But, there would be some that would say that that is a totally selfish impulse on my part. So I say, why SHOULDN'T it apply just as well to highchairs? Basically, it's the same principle. Convenience, for most people. I know very few kids who don't enjoy sitting on a parent's lap during some mealtimes and noshing from their plate. How awful that any parent who really loves their children would even consider denying their children that comfort and contact and togetherness, not to mention restricting their exploration!

As you can see, that's extreme. Frankly, so is assuming that strollers are evil. Everything's evil, in that sense.

For some reason this whole damn fixation on AP Objectification has really been annoying me lately. It's come up on just about every AP list/board I'm on, with one exception. I've read Dr. Sears and while the books do advocate slinging, they do NOT say that "Stollers R Evil! Bad Mama!" In my experience when people are nitpicking to that extent, where they are willing to make that much of a surface judgement based on TOOLS and not useage, then they're not really getting the spirit of attachment. If it makes people feel better to check things you have (or don't) off on their list, rather than getting to the core of the philosophy, then that's great for them, but if they can say that someone is breaking AP by using a stroller once in awhile, I'm free to call BS on it.

And yup, I like Dylan Thomas too. ;>


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## bloodrayne (Mar 5, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Dragon_
*I think it's silly to label anything as either AP or mainstream. It's a spectrum, not an either/or situation. I think it's perfectly possible to use a stroller in an AP way, and I believe I do.

People sure can be quick to judge, but I think you have to do what is best for you and your family and ignore the critics who have not walked in your shoes.*
ITA. I do not think that strollers are intrinsically mainstream. I think it's all in the way you use it.

We have a big old travel system with a pretty big stroller and storage area underneath.

I purposely chose this stroller because I do not drive and I do a lot of walking over pretty long distances, to get groceries sometimes or go to the drugstore, that type of thing, and there's no way I could carry a baby that far and then home AND carry whatever I had bought. So I need a heavy duty stroller with a big storage area underneath to carry what I need to bring home.

Does that mean I'm not AP? I don't think so. I don't leave him in it, or ignore him while he's in it or upset. If we're going short distances or going pretty much anywhere but the mall, I sling him. I love to have him close to me anyway.


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## corrie43 (Mar 9, 2003)

I have to add that When I started coming here to MDC I was really learning a lot and I was and still am trying to become more AP. I read about strollers being non AP and wondered why. I have a sling ad use that as much as possible and was feeling guilty ablout using the stroller at all, but finally after having my back killing me all the time and aggravating my tendonitis to the point I almost gave up breastfeeding because it hurt so bad I finally decided to use my stroller when needed.
Well She loves it, and I am not miserable. I still sling her for short trips, and yes she loves that too. But I also have a toddler and if I want to get any exercise I put them in the double stroller and take a walk. They both love it and we can walk above a snails pace.

I try to take what I can from this board without feeling guilty about the things I don't or can't do. It's hard for moms that have certain problems and can't bf or have to use a stroller to hear really judgemental comments about thing being non-AP, when they may sometimes be necessary. That being said I do like to hear why things are more AP and make my own decision.
Corrie


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## simple gifts (Feb 27, 2003)

I think the use of strollers without thought is what makes them "mainstream". I sling my baby mostly, and when I had three kids under 5, I still rarely used a stroller. Now a days, with a 14 month old, 28lb son who doesn't walk yet, I use a stroller more than I ever did. That's still not very often.

When I get ready to go out somewhere, I think about whether the stroller will be useful. It doesn't sit in my van. When I use the stoller, the sling sits on the top of it, because you *know* you're going to need it.

What I hate is when you see those people with the tiny babies in the strollers that have the car seat that fits in them. They put the baby in the seat, carry the seat to the car, put the seat in the car. When they get to where they are going, they pick up the seat, not the baby, and put it in the stroller. The baby cries and they rock the stroller, not pick up the baby. And to me, that is "mainstream", because I see it everytime I go out.

I don't know what we'll call it if everyone starts using a sling, and they become "mainstream". I still think it's the thought that makes the difference, not the use of the item.


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## vein (Mar 7, 2003)

I haven't read any replies yet, so forgive me if I say something that has already been stated in a much better way.

We have a stroller and do make use of it. Not often, but make use of it all the same. There are some times when it comes in *very* handy - at the mall when I can't carry Gavin and packages at the same time, or when we're going for a walk somewhere (most recently a metropark here) or when I'm having a bad pain day and use the stroller as almost a crutch.

HOWEVER, the instant he starts crying, we stop and he gets picked up and tended to. The first time we went to the mall, he got scared by a young girl telling him he was cute in the elevator (hehehe) and he started crying. He got picked up and held when we got off the elevator until he was okay again. When we were at the boatshow and he started fussing in his stroller, we stopped by a bench and just sat while he was being held to watch the boats go down the canal instead of letting him cry. FWIW, Gavin actually prefers being in his infant car seat in the stroller because he's facing me, which isn't possible when he's taken out of his car seat and allowed to sit in the stroller itself.

I'll also be oh so willing to get into an argument with the first person I see who makes some comment about my stroller usage, because until they have RSD and know what it's like, they aren't allowed to make a single comment. They also don't have any clue that I hold Gavin for almost all of the time that he is not asleep in the house, so the "he wants to be held" bs when he's asleep in the stroller or looking around happily will also get a really nasty response from me.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

I also have a stroller fetish! My oldest is almost 16, and the "baby" is 5, but i go shopping at walmart for groceries every week......and you will find me looking at the strollers!

That said, my youngest hated his, so i pretty much carried him, then held his hand (and still do). he doesnt like grocery carts either. so i guess i am 'mainstream" because i have used them, but AP because i held my son because he hated the stroller?? i have three kids.....am i that awful because i put my child in a stroller, leaving me a free hand to tend to the others and run errands/grocery shop, etc?

sheesh.


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## irishprincess71 (Mar 22, 2003)

I always wondered if I would be kicked out of here if you all knew that I used a stroller.









I was given a carrier when DS was born but he HATED facing me and I hated him facing away from me. I felt that having him facing away from me was worse than the stroller because I couldn't make eye contact with him when I talked to him. Also I have a broken shoulder that made finding a good sling a bit of a challenge. From almost day one I would take DS walking around the neighborhood. However, carrying him was also a concern for sun exposure reasons.

So I made compromises - when he was very little and could face me in his car seat attament I would use that for long walks or shopping. Taking him out and carrying him whenever possible (no direct sun) or convenient (not paying for items). I actually hate the stroller more as he got older because he faced away from me and I couldn't talk directly to him and with him.

Soooo since baby #2 is due when #1 will be 16 months I plan on buying a Kangaroo sling. I can then alternate between slinging and strolling both kidlets at the mall and for walks. Fortunately DS weight is not an issue since he is only 16 lbs at 11 months.


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## chellemarie (Jan 17, 2003)

I have a double stroller (not the side-by-side kind). I love it when we're someplace for a while...shopping, especially. It's a place to put babe if my shoulder needs a break or if he needs one, and it's a good place to put packages and the diaper bag (which is enormous now with all that fluff inside!). It's also a good place for a diaper change.

I always have my sling with me as well as the stroller. If he's happy in the stroller and it's windy or too sunny, I thread my sling around the handle of the stroller and make a canopy that covers the entire thing.

My daughter gets a big kick out of pushing her baby brother in the stroller, too. She doesn't get to feed him as much as she'd originally planned, so this is a trade-off, I suppose.

OH, I also prefer the stroller when we're going for walks because I can see the sidewalk better. If we're just strolling around the neighborhood to be outside, the sling is fine. But if we're walking to take off the cupcakes we had for dinner, babe's in the stroller.


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## lexbeach (Mar 6, 2002)

I wish my babies would ride in a stroller!! Before I got pg, I admit I was incredibly anti-stroller. I would see people pushing their newborns around in those "travel systems" and think (occassionally outloud) "OR you could CARRY your baby." But then I had twins. I also had a c-section, and couldn't sling my babies until they were 4 weeks old, and even then I couldn't go more than a block before my back would need a break. Even though I had twins, I was still adamant that I would sling them for as long as possible. Now I wish that I had at least introduced them to a stroller a little earlier. At 3.5 months they want nothing to do with the (FOUR!!!) twin strollers we have. They weigh about 35 pounds combined now. Luckily, I discovered that Luke is very stable in the baby backpack, even though he's only 3.5 months old. I carry him on my back, and Jasper in the baby bjorn. But even this won't be possible for too much longer.

Now when I see people pushing their babies in a stroller, I think "why won't MY babies ride in a stoller?!" I've even been tempted to do some sort of CIO version of getting them used to the stroller. I was getting pretty desperate once they were too big to be double-slung, and I hadn't tried Luke in the backpack yet. I mean, I couldn't go anywhere. But I'm just hoping that by the time they've outgrown my current set-up, they will have grown into a love for their twin stroller.

Lex


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Lex, I just wanted to say I had a c- section with Ben, he was transverse (sp?) and 9 lbs., 14 oz. It was a surprise and not what I had hoped for. But using the sling early was very difficult. I think I did it too early actually, and can remember my midsection hurting alot. He eventually loved it, but now likes his stroller when we need it.
Also, wanted to tell you how beautiful your boys are!


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

This subject comes up here so often!

I think it's ridiculous to call objects "AP" or "non-AP." That's the problem with labels - people often use them to create rigid definitions and exclude others.

As with all baby equipment - slings, strollers, exersaucers, highchairs (yes, even those - I once read a post here in which the person stated that she thought highchairs were too detached and her child took all her meals while sitting on her lap. Fine, that's her choice, but sheesh, I'm not AP because my dd ate her meals in a highchair???), it's all about how you use it. If you wheel your baby around a mall for five hours and never once touch her or talk to her or whatever, or ignore her cries, that's not so AP, but if your baby enjoys the ride and you connect with her regularly, what's the problem?

Honestly, if people really have the attitude that anything that keeps you from touching your baby is non-AP, then how much of a stretch is it to say that babies shouldn't be in carseats? I mean, I know that's sort of a silly example, but you get my point, right?


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

AP or Mainstream, Kaeleb loves his stroller. I got a hand me down baby SUV (my little phrase for travel system). The stroller part and the carseat didn't even match. I think my mom bought the carseat and the stroller came from dh's cousin but they were the same brand, so they fit. We NEVER used it then though! OT, sorry. Any ways, I do 2 mile power walks twice a day and Kaeleb will not sit in the sling for them. He wants to be sitting up and looking around, so I put him in the stoller and we head out with a neighbor. It also adds that little bit to my workout!


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## sleepies (Nov 30, 2001)

i see that carriers/slings are great and very useful, but i dont see that being an exclusion to strollers.

i didn't like slings, but i do love my stroller.

i do NOT think of myself as a neglectful parent . or a parent that ignores her kid.

i guess you could misuse a stroller (put your kid in one and forget it ------if you had an easier kid than mine)

but, my kid likes me to talk and sing to him all the time. we have lessons all day. he looks around and sees the world in his stroller...while we talk.

i like it. dont see the issue


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## girlzmommy00 (May 15, 2003)

I think it all has to do with how you use the item. Whether it's a stroller, high chair, baby swing, etc. We own strollers, a high chair, a swing and an exersaucer, but use them all in moderation. I think 10-15 min a day is fine in the exersaucer, when Lily is enjoying it, but other wise she's on the floor and the same with the swing. I think we use the swing maybe 10-15 min a week. And I think that's fine as well, but I think that's different than parents who just pop them in the swing all day for no reason (reason being a super colicky baby who will only stop crying in the swing, like my 3 year old was). I also think that applies to the high chair, stroller, etc.
Just as sometimes you may "need" the stroller, sometimes you also may "need" the sling. Though as Lily's getting older, larger (she's 8 months and 25-26 lbs), and wigglier, slinging her is more difficult. I find esp in the warmer weather. Though sometimes it's also much easier to just pop them in the sling than pull out the stroller and all that.
I just think all baby equipment is about moderation.


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## comet (Aug 22, 2002)

Yes, I think strollers are mainstream for young babies and infants, when they could so easily be carried in a sling or snugli or whatever (assuming the caregiver can do that).

With toddlers, however, it could go either way.


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## JuneMama (Aug 10, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by nikirj_
*But I would never dream of, say, sticking the kids in the stroller for a day at the zoo. I mean, what are we going to the zoo for if not so that they can explore things? I see SOOOO many kids stuck in strollers at that zoo (we have an annual pass and go at least weekly) and they can't see a darned thing, and sit there looking sooo bored, poor things. This, IMO, is the mainstream abuse of strollers. What on earth is that kid in there for? So that YOU don't have to be patient and wait while your kid would rather check out pigeons than lions? I mean, sure, you'd rather go through the savannah exibit, but who is the adult here? Who is the trip for?

*
Now see, the one time I've tried taking my ds to a local petting zoo, he did not want to be out of his stroller. When we took him out, he cried to get back in it. So he was probably one of those bored looking kids you see, thinking the parents are mis-using their strollers. He's never been put in the stroller against his will, unless need be. Never been left to sit there crying or fussing in his stroller either.


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## FroNuff (Apr 3, 2003)

I think it's really kinda sad to do this whole "us vs. them" thing, which IMO is being done when strollers are thought of as a non-AP thing. I do think that strollers can be misused when a parent doesn't ever pick up their child and keeps rolling them along when the child is obviously upset. That's actually a huge pet peeve of mine....ignoring your child while in a stroller. But anyway.....

I use a stroller and sling interchangeably. If I'm making a quick run into Target, I put her in the sling. If I'm going to do some walking at the mall or the park, I put her in the stroller, but always have my sling handy. DD will often tire of the stroller after a while, so into the sling she goes! But the looks I get from people if she's in the sling and I'm pushing the stroller! Who knew people could be so judgemental with their eyes alone! :LOL

I think the only thing (aside from my above mentioned pet peeve) that really gets my goat with strollers is when tiiiiiny babies are in umbrella strollers. That's not an AP thing, that's just a dumb parenting thing, IMO. The baby's poor little neck is always flopped over and that just cannot be good whatsoever.


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## mama_kass (Jan 11, 2003)

Here is a good article that I came across and thought you (and the others who have posted as well) might find interesting.

http://www.kellymom.com/parenting/ap-frame-of-mind.html


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## bloodrayne (Mar 5, 2003)

That is an excellent article and ITA with it. That is exactly why I try not to judge other people, because the truth is, you never know what their circumstances are and why they're doing what they're doing (i.e., maybe that stuff in the bottle isn't formula, it's expressed breastmilk). Etc. You never know, and I don't feel it's any of my business. Great article. I'll be sharing that.


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

That IS a great article. Mom2AliKat's post about ignoring a child in a stroller who is obviously upset reminded me of an incident that could have easily been misjudged:

I was wheeling my screaming toddler across a mall! Yep! Something had upset her, I forget what (this was three years ago), and nursing her didn't help, and carrying her with one arm while I pushed the stroller was too dangerous, as she was flailing and inconsolable, so I put her in the stroller and walked as quickly as possible to the exit so we could go home. I bet it looked awful to everyone who saw me.

You never know...


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Lunamom...i hear ya. a flailing toddler is scary....and dangerous!


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## Katie65 (May 31, 2003)

I also don't think of the use of strollers (or swings or bouncy seats) as "non-AP"...**IF** used in **MODERATION**and used in an attentive manner!

I use a stroller for taking my kids for walks around the neighborhood...also if I'm going shopping somewhere with them both that doesn't have carts. If there are carts, Cassidy goes in the cart...if dh is with, he holds her hand and she walks...but I can't handle Aidan in the sling and holding her hand on my own, because she bolts and has tantrums...

I use a swing or bouncer seat at home for short times when I am parenting Cassidy and can't hold/sling Aidan at the same time...ie..taking her to the potty (we're starting!!) washing her in the tub...changing her diaper...

if Aidan cries in any of these contraptions..I take him out as soon as I can! I would never leave him for hours in one of these things either...as well as I'm always nearby to continue voice contact with him so he knows whats going on....


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

oy!

I hate these threads! I agree that AP is a frame of mind. Even that article (which was good, not great) was blasting those who bottle feed with formula.

I use a stroller, a backback, a bjorne, I use formula and organic foods, I let Goo have her own room and bed and we've never been able to sleep together, but we snuggle all of the time.

AP is about how you interact with your child.
It isn't what devices (and yes, a sling is a device) you chose to use!


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## PaganScribe (Feb 14, 2003)

Actually, right now I *hate* strollers.

Monday I had to be out and about near my favorite bookstore. I was going to put ds in his stroller (after having been slinging him all day on our other errands) because he tends to grab at books while I am perusing, and he had been getting fidgety in the sling. So I get out the stroller and start to strap him in -- no way. He starts whining and reaching for me. Oh well, I guess I'll put up with the grabbiness and fidgeting. I pick him up and collapse the stroller to put in back in the truck.

I actually, for once in my life, squatted like you're supposed to when you lift, and when I grabbed the stroller to lift it up I did something AWFUL to my back. Fell down, sprawled all over the place, baby's got a banged elbow, and I've got a pinched nerve in my back with accompanying muscle spasms.

So, AP or mainstream, right now I think the things are flipping EVIL!!


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## hvl25 (Jan 28, 2003)

we just got a new schwinn jogging stroller for the trails at the parks and I love it. There is no way I could carry her and handle my other 2 kids at the same time. Something always happens where I need both hands. I odn't think its a mainstream/ap thing


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## TranscendentalMom (Jun 28, 2002)

I would sling everywhere if ds wasn't so darn heavy! I usually throw the sling in the back of the stroller in case he's fussy. Often, my dh or I will have my ds in the sling while the stroller holds my diaper bag, shopping bags, keys & drink! I find it very useful in this scenario.

But I don't think a stroller means that someone is not AP. I have lots of friends who are very AP and they ALL use strollers.


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## muldey (May 8, 2002)

Hi,I don't think a stroller is just for mainstream.I use ours very often,we don't have a car that's running yet,so if we want to go out during the day,I use the stroller.My ds,Gabrion(2 a month from tommorrow!),loves to watch the cars go by,and my dd,Kasia who will be 5 one week from today still rides in the stroller.The closest park is quite a walk,same with grocery stores,etc.We have a Sit N Stand($7.99 at Savers!!!!!What a deal!!!!!)where Gabe rides in the front,and Kasia can either sit on a little jump seat in the back and face me or stand and look around.There are straps to keep her safe either way.It holds up to 50lbs on each seat,so with Kasia at 40lbs and Gabe at 28lbs,we still have a while to use it.I don't know what I would do without it! Gabe is very difficult to handle walking,as he screams and has a tantrum if you won't let him do something he wants,like say,run out into the street.He's very content in the stroller,and gets so excited to see the cars,and will squeal with delight at a big truck.He will literally try to jump out of my arms if I carry him.Kasia just asks me to stop if she wants to walk,and lets herself out,but knows if it's just the 3 of us that she needs to be in the stroller when we need to cross a busy street.
Lisa in RI
SAHM to Kasia(5 one week from today!)







,Gabrion(2 next month,our silly coo-coo nut!)







,5 furry feline babies-Muldey,Ba-ba,Baby,Silky,and Jibbey-roo,and wife to skateboarding(28 going on 15,LOL) Billy


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

I bought a used Peterson stroller for my DD for when my dear Aunt came to baby sit and walk her in the park. My dear Aunt was 70+, so it was for her comfort.

Later, when I had DS, DD was in the stroller for me and DS was in the Andrea's backpack.

Still later, when DD and DS#1 were older and in the stroller, I had DS#2 in the Andrea's backpack.

When DS#3 was born, everybody carried him in the Andrea's babypack. No one ever put him down.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I’m glad you brought up people who don’t drive. I don’t drive and my child spends very little time in a car. However, we do use the stroller to get groceries home and to get around town. I got on to this sight and this thread so that I could find some ways of describing myself as a parent and must say that if strollers are not AP or if I am ever judged on the street for using one than I would not want to be in this AP group in the fist place. I mean that if strollers are not AP than I would say that cars with car seats are most certainly not either. I’m a sling wearing momma. I still wear my baby who is 21 moths old but I use a stroller too. I think if anyone who straps their kid and DRIVES to where they put the sling on should feel ashamed for judging a mom on the street using a stroller. He who is with out sin…I am most certainly not or I would not feel so interested in debating this stuff now. So far in my search for new parents and my style, I have found that there is at least as much judgment from the “AP” camp as in the “mainstream”.


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Yup, I'm getting pretty tired of the attitude that any time you are not touching your baby, you are somehow losing AP points. It's just so ridiculous.







:


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## austinelizabeth (Apr 24, 2003)

Uh, I thought that AP was simply a movement interested in treating children like humans, rather than chattel. So think how you'd like to be treated, and screw the labels. Who gives a flip what is "officially AP"?

I don't know a lot of people who always always want to be touched and held. I think if infants could do what 18 mo can (arch back and insist on walking alone for a little bit), they would. I bet sitting in a stroller is a relief for them, at times. Also, a tiny child can't be expected to walk for miles on errands, and parents of non-walkers can't be expected to throw their backs out by carrying 25 extra lbs. while walking miles on errands.

Kids ignored while crying in strollers is annoying, though.

I don't know this whole "Is it AP? Is it mainstream?" thing seems artificial. Shouldn't we parent based on personal belief systems? Instinct? Humanism? This sounds a little like an organized religion ...


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by amarasmom_
*
So does that make me, gulp, mainstream?








*
Does it really matter? I agree with what Detente said about not wanting to make choices based on what others think rather than your own feelings and instinct.

I do think strollers are mainstream, of course! They aren't some freaky alternative type of thing that not many people use. Most parents of young children use them, therefore they are in the mainstream. Does that mean that they can't be used by loving, attached parents? No, of course not.

As far as highchairs go, I know some who refused to use them. My daughter loved using her high chair, it put her up at the right level and such. When she was learning to walk and didn't eat much in the way of food, she'd just come up and stand next to me and I'd feed her from my plate. But it's not fair to expect a toddler to sit at a big chair where she doesn't even reach the table properly, so having a piece of apparatus her size that makes us both happy was a good thing.


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## Lil'M (Oct 27, 2002)

Gosh, I've used so many things to transport my kids I've lost count! Lets see: sling, snugli, baby bjorn, backpack carrier (my kids loved this for so long and loved to pull my hair at the same time!), so many different kinds of strollers...

Ok, so they are all devices. My goal is to always be attentive to my kids but when dd#2 is throwing a tantrum and doesn't want to leave the mall and dd#1 needs to get picked up at school NOW, you might see me running through the mall with a screaming toddler in the stroller. LOL!

I does break my heart when I would see moms sitting at a bench chatting in the mall with their babies in strollers facing away from them holding their own bottles. I definitely wanted to yell at them: pick up your kid!

I often give slings as gifts to people who otherwise would never think to use one, and always get great feedback about them. I don't expect them not to use a stoller also; different things are useful at different times.

I think what is AP is being in tune with your child's needs in addition to your own and being flexible enough to try lots of things to see what works best for everyone at a given time. IMHO, People who don't think of using anything other than stollers are probably missing out on some great ways to interact and be close with their kids, but you can't know who that is just from seeing who is using a stoller out in public at any given moment.


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## CortLong (Jun 4, 2003)

I don't think strollers are about AP or mainstream....I think it's what works best for your situation.

That being said....I really like my stroller- we use it about 1/2 the time that we are out and about.


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Dragon_
*I think it's silly to label anything as either AP or mainstream. It's a spectrum, not an either/or situation. I think it's perfectly possible to use a stroller in an AP way, and I believe I do.

People sure can be quick to judge, but I think you have to do what is best for you and your family and ignore the critics who have not walked in your shoes.*
well said.
who the heck cares if you are not the hardest harcore AP-er in the world? do what works for you, what feels good with your conscience. I would laugh so hard if someone came down on me for using a stroller!!


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Foobar_
*oy!

I hate these threads! I agree that AP is a frame of mind. Even that article (which was good, not great) was blasting those who bottle feed with formula.

I use a stroller, a backback, a bjorne, I use formula and organic foods, I let Goo have her own room and bed and we've never been able to sleep together, but we snuggle all of the time.

AP is about how you interact with your child.
It isn't what devices (and yes, a sling is a device) you chose to use!*
I agree, these threads do get ugly.
I got severe PPD and then had a huge emotional breakdown after a series of terrible events including having my 3 day old baby hooked up to machines for 4 days and having a spinal tap because of a (false!) concern that she had contracted meningits or a staff infection. we never got a latch thanks to there being no one to help me at the stupid hospital that I got transferred to, after 10 hours of hard nasty unmedicated labor at the birth center. (they told me they didnt think I could take much more labor (it was a total of 36 hrs of intense pain prodromal labor) So for me, having a newborn was a series of huge defeats. Thanks in part to the attitude that you have to do it all "RIGHT" or you are a bad mother. Thanks for that! ;-) when I got medication I quit pumping. I'd pumped exclusively for a month. I was seriously considering checking into a mental hospital after all the stress and drama of that 1st month. So you know what I did? I formula fed. Organic soy, goat, and then cows milk. I've done almost every other AP thing, including cloth diapers and co-sleeping, but people still have to act like I poisoned my baby because I made the (GOOD) choice to go on medication and rest from the pumping hell. I would hope people would NOT judge me for not nursing my dd. But they still do, and I think its unfortunate that ppl are so snobby and holier than thou about this topic.


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## elyice (Apr 7, 2003)

this is so silly.
I CANNOT leave my house without my double stroller. My 11 month old son is the size of a 2 yr old and my 3 yr old is a running madwoman. I havet tried to not use the stroller, strap my massive infant on to me and chase my 3 yr old around town, IT IS DANGEROUS. She escapes me and I have fallen trying to juggle them both. I Love my strollers. I have had a Peg pergp Martinelli, Peg perego duette, combi twin savvy, combi ultra savvy, and a couple of joggers. I adore strollers and highly reccomend them to everyone!


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## azyre (Oct 10, 2003)

Of course stroller are mainstream, in the sense that nearly everyone with a child has one. It's harder to say if they are symptomatic of a certain philosophy (or lack of an AP one) in any one individual. I too have used many mainstream gadgets. DD would only sleep in the swing out of arms during the day. I LOVED the swing







I think it is not as beneficial to have a baby drop off to sleep by itself in a swing compared to being with someone alive, so we never used it like that (easy to say when she'd never have let me LOL).

I really feel babies benefit from being carried and worn, and that sling wearing is worth conquering even if a baby likes it's stroller. But if a Mum is being responsive to her babe's need in the stroller, I don't think it is doing any harm to their attachment or development, unless they hang out in the stroller for long periods each day.

I personally feel that sling shopping gives me a great baby wearing opportunity and are still carrying my 13mo 9.5kg, tho I often grab a shopping trolley these days as well







I am hoping she learns to walk before my ability to lug her around runs out. She is starting to block my view and kick my legs







Feels like I'm 50 weeks pregnant LOL


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## magnoliablue (Dec 29, 2002)

Count me in there with stroller usage. I slinged all three through their 3rd birthdays, but there are times when a stroller is a neccessity. I live near the boardwalk, and we go there all the time in the summer. To let my kids roam free among throngs of people, or expecting me to sling them the entire time while watching all the other is just ludicrous. Add to that the "stuff" acquired on the boards, and it is absolutely neccessary to have the stroller along.

I have to admit that at times the stroller was just a place to carry everything around on adventures, more than it was used for an actual body, but the need is there. And it makes me no less AP for the usage.

I, too, am getting weary of the so-called Guide to Perfect AP Parenting with No Exceptions attitude that seems to be making the rounds once again.

AP is less about objects, then how you interact with your child. It is when we let the objects serve as a substitute parent that there is a question as to their benefits.


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## brooklyngirl (May 15, 2003)

I have to say I've been guilty of AP bias.

When I tried to meet up with the AP group in my area I couldn't find them at the agreed upon location. Later I found out they were right in front of me but because there were no slings in sight I thought I was at the wrong location. I just didn't associate strollers all the strollers with AP. If I had looked closely I would have noticed that there toddlers running around and the strollers were holding stuff.

I've also been tskd tskd about not using the "right" sling. So it seems there seems to be an AP handbook that I didn't get.


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## Dodo (Apr 10, 2002)

I am confused by any kind of anti-stroller talk, whether it is in this vein or in terms of the obesity epidemic (with the latter, I wonder why experts don't bash parents who drive, at least the strolling parent sets an active example for their child!). As an urban parent, I consider my stroller a necessity. I have a friend IRL who started out anti-stroller and now cannot be seen in public without one. Parenting seems toughest for the most idealistic.

Maybe you should do a poll to see how many MDC parents have in fact used strollers in airports.

Or how many, for that matter, have used strollers to get crying children home. My dd tantrums each and every time we leave a playdate. Now that I am pregnant and crippled, she spends more and more of that tantrumming time in her stroller. Either I restrain her in my arms or with the stroller. Same difference to me.

Dodo, who loved slinging, but wouldn't force it on anyone


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## boomingranny (Dec 11, 2003)

here here

sometimes I read these boards and the underlying theme is so "I'm AP and they're NOT" - mainstream becomes a dirty word. I feel strongly that we base our parenting choices on very individual criteria and this need to label and make it an "us" or "Them" issue is so detrimental to women. How can we fight for better childcare, work for a better world when we are so consumed with who wears a sling and who uses a stroller? In the long run most of our kids will grow up ok. The key ingredient is love, and love is expressed in infinite ways.

just my .25 cents!

cheers


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I have absolutely no problem with strollers although I agree that, like almost all things, they can be misused.

I always like to jump on these threads to brag that I don't really drive - DC is hardly ever in a carseat, I still sling her at 2.75 years AND we use a stroller. The stroller is a great way to help DC fall asleep for a nap (especiall when it's really hot here), it's how we get grocheries home and how I get my paper and glass to the recycling bin down the street.

I must say that I've never taken this kind of thing that seriously - are there really anti-stroller people?


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I think there are many layers to a question like that.

For me thinking about strollers begins with viewing them in a historical context, thinking about what kinds of cultures used them, starting when, and why etc.

When you juxtapose modern expectations for health and safety, my thinking about strollers would generally be~

Mindfulness. The missing ingredient with many people using strollers in modern cultures is being aware that there is even such a thing as overusing them. Use a stroller too much? Not possible. Many people bring home a tiny baby, transport in a stroller from day one, and nobody thinks there is anything missing. I would see that as a problem. There is plenty of research and just common observation that a baby who is laying semi prone on their back all day and night is not developing good posture or head shape. Babies who are being shifted about in slings, carriers, and arms tend to be more involved in their positioning, being able to move or wriggle or turn more frequently as the person holding them moves and turns about too.

It isn't about the stroller being right or wrong, but whether the baby is getting the amount of contact they need for healthy growth and bonding. It is very difficult to bond with a newborn when they are more than 12 inches away from you. They can't even see you.

I can understand that some parents choose to avoid strollers altogether, especially with small babies. I empathize with concerns that babies who grow up moving from stroller to carseat to crib would be getting far more contact if there were fewer objects being sold to parents like that, and parents were encouraged to simply pick up their babies in arms to move them about.

It is just about mindfulness. It isn't about the stroller.

There is even a cultural pressure to use a stroller, and I would be mindful of that. There is still a cultural attitude that a baby belongs in a stroller, and a parent holding a baby should "put the baby down".

I think if a parent were to say "I don't ever use a stroller", they would get negative flack for it, and we should ask ourselves why that might happen. It is because our culture does view strollers as the right place for babies, and not as a tool for parents to use if they need it.

We had a stroller but we didn't use it much. I only have one child and I felt much safer having him up in the sling or backpack. In the stroller I was always having to move it out of people's way, watch for cars, and check constant to see what he was doing. I could shop and eat and go for walks much easier if he was in the sling. We lived in a tiny duplex and rarely stayed home, and his first year we were always out of the house, walking (no car), hanging out at the mall and bookstore to stay out of the Florida heat. I found him to be far more portable as a baby in the sling/backpack. I could see it's use for the toddler years, when they are too heavy to carry, but I honestly never really "got" the stroller thing when he was tiny. It was so much bigger and bulkier than he was! Lugging around a stroller and a baby was tiring *LOL*


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## sleepies (Nov 30, 2001)

don't know, but.................

as long as the kids enjoy the stroller, I say that they are fantastic.

i do hate to see people with screaming kids in them......

i like the strollers that face the mom, but they are hard to find.


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## Mavournin (Jul 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boomingranny*
sometimes I read these boards and the underlying theme is so "I'm AP and they're NOT"

EXACTLY!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I don't know how many more of these threads I can take.









What would you rather see...a board where a TINY MINORITY of members go overboard with judgemental-ness and "holier than thou" rhetoric (oh wait, you find those sorts of people on *every* board)...or just another mainstream parenting board.

You don't like those silly few who stay stupid things like "I can't believe anybody would use a stroller"...IGNORE THEM. They're ignorant fools and are not representative of the VAST MAJORITY of wonderful, supportive, AP mamas here.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Piglet I wonder the same thing as I read here lately. I have been here almost 3 years and I can count on one hand the number of times I have seen a full out statement thread that says something like "Hey loser who uses a stroller, you are not an ap parent, so get out!".

I think threads like THIS do much to hurt this board. Of course strollers are mainstream, because everyone in our culture uses them. By contrast, slings are not mainstream. It's a loaded question, and typically what happens is that *This* kind of thread, which draws a line in the sand over some particular issue, is where the worst arguing happens. It creates "sides" that really don't exist, and marginalizes the very people who need this board!

There are differences between mainstream parenting and ap parenting. One of those differences has always been the *value* of holding your baby in arms as much as you want. Now that can be discussed and debated in many nuances, including the stroller~ie. reconciling safety issues, multi child issues, twins, back issues with mothers, etc. There should be a place for people to talk about using strollers, how they use them, the benefits of it here.

But there should also be a place here for mama's who NEVER use strollers, who can't stand them, never owned one, sling from dawn to dusk, and have raised all their kids that way. It's not that hard to imagine really. People raise kids all over the world without strollers, in much worse conditions than we live in. If a mama is doing it like that, good, I hope she says so here loud and clear. I'm not talking about attacks. I'm talking about honest sharing of experiences.

I want to hear that voice here, that voice that is unequivocally NOT mainstream!

The value of that voice IS THE ONLY DIFFERENCE between this board and every other board. I hope people read that sentence twice. Once that mama doesn't feel safe here, there is no difference between this place and all the others.

Is there anyone here who doesn't want to hear that mama's voice?


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

That was so well said, heartmama. Thank you.

My concern is interested mamas coming here to find out what AP is and coming across posts suggesting that the general attitude here is one of "you are not wanted if you own a stroller, a baby bottle, an infant carrier, etc....". That, IME, is NOT the general attitude here and it hurts me to hear the boards characterized that way.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Yes piglet exactly. I have a number of complaints I could make about MDC, and one of them is NOT that this place is full of militant ap extremists. Personally I wish there were more of them here! I love those wacky mama's who run about growing sprouts wearing 2 slings and living in a teepee, while dh whittles their toothbrushes from recycled chair legs :LOL God bless them every one!

Ap websites don't come any tamer than MDC. This is about as sugar coated as it gets. Heck even the magazine is more militant than this place.


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

I learned a great deal about attachment parenting from a Mama who had a medium sized Chicago apartment, minimal income, and no car. She had (at the time) a ten-twelve year old, who was unschooled, and a new baby, who became a toddler before I moved away. Her bedroom contained a TV (for watching opera and such on PBS) a wall full of cubical shelves for clothes and toys and a floor covered with a large futon, pillows and blankets. Her living room was primarily an art studio with another wall of cubicle shelves for books and toys. The pre-teen had her own room, but still came in on occasion to sleep in the family bed. Their kitchen/dining room had a small apt sized washer and yards of clothesline (very nice for providing humidity in a dry Chicago winter







). She also did not own a stroller. She had various slings and a backpack and also made her own diapers. She carried that baby everywhere and very lovingly cared for him. Her philosophy was that he needed to be in contact with her and being in a stroller put a distance between them. She was a good role model for me for attachment parenting. I saw her live what she believed. She gave me her patterns for slings and diapers. I might not have otherwise considered not using a stroller. I did get given one with Sophia and it came in handy for carrying packages! :LOL Sophia loved the sling and backpack. That kind of parenting was ideal for her, a high need child. Plus it was much easier to get around on Chicago's public transit without a stoller! My second though, hated the sling! I was very upset about that at first, but in the end I went with what worked best for her and it is just fine. We had some luck with a Baby Bjorn, but I had a harder time doing stuff when she was in it. She was too far out front. What I would really like is some way to strap her on my back. The backpack chafes me something awful. She is mostly in my arms, but she will also get down and play on her own way more than Sophia did. She also *loves* the stroller I got for five bucks at a garage sale. She asks to ride in it. Heck, she likes to just sit in it in the house and not be going anywhere! :LOL

So, yes, strollers are mainstream, and they do not promote attachment, however, they certainly are useful at times. Along the same lines, we have an wooden restarant style high chair. It was also five bucks at a garage sale. I bought it with the idea that my baby could be right up at the table with the rest of the family. We love it! Sophia used it for more than five years. Ellie likes it, too, but will also ask to sit in my lap for part or all of some of her meals, and that is fine, too.

I would like to see more threads about attachment promoting practices (i.e. treating children as individuals, with respect, etc.) that go beyond the sling vs stroller/bucket/exersaucer, crib vs. family bed, high chair vs. lap, breast vs. bottle years.


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## elyice (Apr 7, 2003)

we all need to relax with trying to classify and label everyone elses parenting practices. If a child is loved, nurtured, fed emotionally and physically, how their parents choose to do that is fine with me.
~Elyice


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

heartmama, piglet, sophiamomma







I was reading this whole thread and thinking I shouldn't post, but here goes. As others have said, of course strollers are mainstream, it is the way most babies, tots and children are carried in our culture. But of course if you use one it doesn't make you not AP. Obviously some women have reasons for needing them (twins, surgery, back problems, etc) and some just prefer to use them, and they are still great, loving mommas. However, I believe being carried on the mom or dad's body promotes attachment in a way the stroller does not, but there are plenty of other ways to promote this kind of attachment (nursing, co-sleeping, just plain interacting with your baby, etc). My own personal experience and parenting philosophy is for not using strollers; I sling, carry or backpack my kids or else they walk. I belive that it is ideal for babies to be carried. I walked 2 miles daily with a 3 year old on my back when I was 9 months pregnant because I felt that strollers were not something I wanted to use. I also see strollers as just another device that puts distance betwen me and my baby. Of course a carseat can be lumped into this category, but it is used for safety, so I think it is a little different (although I limit driving to about once a week because I don't like to have my kids "strapped in"). Hope I don't offend anyone, just trying to present an alternative way of doing things as this discussion seems to be mainly people who do use strollers. heartmama- no teepee but we did live in a dome, does that count? :LOL


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Oh farmermama a dome that sounds awesome! I want one so much! What style? Does it have a solid foundation, or does it float?

Sofiamama (and farmermama) I am SO GLAD you both posted. I don't want to discourage anyone from ap by having them doubt themselves for owning a stroller.

OTOH, maybe selfishly, maybe not, I personally really want to see more discussion here about practices that actively promote attachment. I feel that so much of what is going on around here is people saying "I am attached whether or not I do xyz". That doesn't really help *me* learn very much, kwim?

I really enjoy the posts by people who say "I always sling because I don't like distance between me and baby" etc. I like hearing how people take on idea's about attachment and go with them in some way. I like those more "militant" posts, because they give *me* idea's about attachment. I want to learn!


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

heartmama- Yes! Lets have more discussions about more radical parenting styles. There must be ways to talk about these things without offending or hurting others who may not make the same choices.

Off Topic- we don't live in a dome anymore. It was very fun and beautiful, but cold at times so I really appreciate my house right now! It was up on posts and made out of canvas. PM me if you need more info.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

There is always gonna be someone on a board this size who gets bent out of shape when anyone says something remotely radical. And by radical I mean outside the mainstream. You'd think people would come here expecting to see posts by people living outside the mainstream, but time and again I am reminded, many people seem to think this is just another parenting website. It isn't.

I think mama's who don't use strollers because they want to foster attachment are amazing, and I admire them, and I like to hear how they worked out various issues, and I want to hear their thoughts on society and pressures to detach and the like. I can't get that kind of conversation just anywhere.

I don't care who gets in a tizzy over someone saying they never used a stroller. You've got all of society behind you, but the mama who never uses a stroller has got a handful of websites to support her. Including this one.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

How about hearing from a mama who chooses a lifestyle that fosters attachment, which happens to include a stroller? I understand what is being said here but the stroller is an object. I am sincerely proud of my lifestyle and have worked hard at getting to this place. I rarely drive and sling daily but I still use a stroller on occasion. I understand that no one is judging my lifestyle but I don't see what would be so fantastic about me making a stand against ever using a stroller.

I guess I just feel like there are much bigger issues. Personally, I would much rather see parents taking a stand against excessive time in the car than using strollers.

I guess I am just seeing a different culture of stroller use than some of you. It isn't like people here drive around and then put their kids in the stroller - they use the stroller instead of the car. I guess I think that is much more radical than a person that doesn't use a stroller but drives all over.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I understand that no one is judging my lifestyle but I don't see what would be so fantastic about me making a stand against ever using a stroller.
Maybe you don't see what would be fantastic about it, and that is fine. But if someone says they do see what is fantastic about it, I want to hear them speak. It isn't just about me. Or you. It's about them. What have they learned about attachment? How have they worked it out in their life? Why was this issue so important to them?

You know there are some pretty radical mama's out there. I may never create such a radical lifestyle for myself. I'm not too brave. But I sure want to learn all I can from them. I am proud of where I am at, and I think there are many people new to ap that I can help, and I have my own little niche of ap where I think I have applied ap in ways that were radical in comparison to what I was being told to do (with a hospitalized child).

But mostly I feel there is more to learn. I value the more radical voice, because it is excited to consider the ways I may not have thought about attachment, and the unlearning that happens when we step away from mainstream media in parenting our kids.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Yea, I guess I would also like to hear from someone who is so radical that they don't have any use for a stroller. I just don't imagine that the stroller issue would be what defined their "radicalness" - for me.

It's not that I can't imagine that someone could possibly not "need" a stroller (I am one of those parents). It's just that their lifestyle would be twhat I was intetrested in - not the lack of a stroller.


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

Umm- I don't use one but not because I am concerned about whether or not I am labeled as a non-mainstream or radical parent. But it is a choice that I have made because I believe it is ideal for my babies to be on my body. For me one of my big issues in parenting is this belief. I am not taking a stand against strollers, but taking a stand for holding my children. It is not a question of not having a use for a stroller, it is choosing not to use one.
Edited for clarity- I just want to be clear that I am talking about my personal choice not to use one, not making a blanket statement about what other moms should be doing.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Well I completely agree, it's not a positive energy to be "anti" stroller, it's much more interesting to be pro holding your baby. But the thread was titled in a way that put an adversarial spin on the issue from the onset IMO.

I guess my point with the specific issue being "radical" is not that someone is doing it to be radical, but that the person is handling an issue in a way that is, for lack of a better way to put this, "more" ap than I might have done it. And you can either feel threatened by that, or you can chill out and learn something if you want, or ignore them if you don't. But I don't think it's right to jump in and dismiss the work they did in handling that issue as no different that if they hadn't done it. And that was what I saw with the stroller talk. "Strollers, what's the big deal, who cares?" type of thing. Some people do care, and it's not stupid or nit picky of them to want to say they care.

I just don't like it when people get into conversations like this and start....commiserating?...to each other in some way, for "not" feeling strongly about an issue. "Oh what's the big deal, it's an object, why do people get so worked up over it" etc. It puts a kind of stigma on people who do feel passionately and marginalizes them in the conversation, and I don't like it. It's not silly to feel passionately about an attachment issue.

Sure, if someone comes in here and says "Parents who use strollers are bad people and don't love their kids", go ahead and get pissed, I understand not wanting to hear that kind of judgement. But that wasn't what was was said.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

FWIW we are ttc right now and I have my eye on the bugaboo Frog stroller. It is so cool! I doubt we'll ever use it much but if we have a baby, I will get it, because my older son would probably get a kick out of strolling the baby around the house.

My point being that I feel deeply respectful of people who are against strollers because there is such an abuse of them in our culture. Even though it does not bother me personally to own one, kwim? I understand there are many layers to this issue.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

What I find so interesting is that there are a hundred times more defensive posts along the lines of "I do X, Y, Z and I am attached so lay off" then posts actually saying "if you do X, Y, Z then you are not attached".

I'm getting really sick of these threads full of people defending their use of strollers. The "reaction" is so far outweighing the supposed provocation that it's laughable. Do you know how pathetic and defensive we all sound? Why on earth would anybody feel the need to defend use of a stroller on an AP board where we are all pretty much on board with the attachment theory thing. Because your kid fell asleep and you didn't want to wake him? Oh my, you must be an awful parent. Frankly, threads like this make MDC seem ridiculous, and it pains me that all the good here is washed away by 6 page threads full of defensiveness against NOTHING.

I challenge people to come up with threads where the theme is "If you use [insert gadget or formula here] then you are not AP". Once in a blue moon, some overzealous mama comes along and posts something to that effect, which of course is immediately pointed out to be the foolishness that it is.

OTOH, in ten minutes I could come up with a dozen five page threads full of posts where people rail against the supposed "AP label, laundry-lists, accusations of using particular gadgets, etc...what is AP, blah blah blah" that MDC is supposedly rife with.

I'm just really, really tired of this. It gives our boards an unfair, untrue, and bad reflection to newbies, and it's frankly pathetic that so many of us feel the need to defend against this largely-made-up, most definitely hyperbolized, "enemy" of the "militant AP black-and-white judgments" mamas that supposedly are everywhere here and yet......surprise!....i never see them.

I'm beginning to think that we are our own worst enemies. The more threads like this I see, the more I think there is too much defensiveness and downright insecurity around here. Our problem isn't the odd radical who oversteps the bounds of tact, it's our own lack of confidence in our ability as parents. I use or have used an infant carrier and a stroller and have never felt the need to defend it's use to anybody. It's obvious to me that I'm "AP" and that's all the matters.


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Piglet!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I, personally, don't think I'm defensive on this thread. I agree that there are very few people going around saying they are "anti-stroller" or that using a stroller is against being "AP". In fact, I have only heard of this idea on these "mainstream vs. AP" threads, which is why I said that I don't take the issue seriously.

On another thread similar to this one I said that I am only "AP" because it's the label I found that best fit my existing parenting style. I guess that is why I don't get upset that I may do something that is or isn't "AP" -- I don't do things *because* they are "AP" -- I was "AP" before I had even heard of the term.

I'm responding because some things that I said were somewhat misunderstood and I feel like I want to clarify what I meant...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
I just don't like it when people get into conversations like this and start....commiserating?...to each other in some way, for "not" feeling strongly about an issue. "Oh what's the big deal, it's an object, why do people get so worked up over it" etc. It puts a kind of stigma on people who do feel passionately and marginalizes them in the conversation, and I don't like it. It's not silly to feel passionately about an attachment issue.

Sure, if someone comes in here and says "Parents who use strollers are bad people and don't love their kids", go ahead and get pissed, I understand not wanting to hear that kind of judgement. But that wasn't what was was said.

I feel very strongly about issues that have to do with stroller use. But, like Farmer Mama said,

Quote:


Originally Posted by *farmer mama*
I am not taking a stand against strollers, but taking a stand for holding my children. It is not a question of not having a use for a stroller, it is choosing not to use one.

By the way FM, could you talk a little about getting around any stroller issues? Do you need to carry things to and from your home? I'm just wondering how you do that with children in tow. That would be my biggest issue - getting food and recycling in and out of the house with a toddler.

I hope you don't feel like I've put any stigma on you or that I've marginalized your passion. Seriously, when I said "it's just an object" I didn't mean that I don't totally respect the lifestyle of someone that doesn't use a stroller -- I meant that the *lifestyle* is the impressive thing, yk?

Another issue that goes along with stroller use that I *do* feel passionately about is the use of the car. I've often been surprised that excessive car use isn't addressed more here at MDC. Because I've lived without a personal car for over 5 years now I know that the issue can become *either* the stroller or the car. When I say that it's the lifestyle over the object this is what I had in mind. It is possible to be dedicated to attachment, health and safety and have those choices necessitate a stroller, more so than if weren't so concerned about those things.

The last issue *for me* that I think about with stroller use is consumerism. It is a big problem that we feel like we "need" so many things for our children. I would love to see more discussion on parents taking a stand against all the crap we are told we "need" to go with our children.

Now, I know the whole disclaimer thing has been talked about but I do feel a nagging need to make one. I'm trying to find a balance between expressing my passions and not offending people so I did just want to say that I *know* there are many more issues with this - especially physical limitations to baby wearing and specific lifestyle issues.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

....I don't get upset that I may do something that is or isn't "AP" -- I don't do things *because* they are "AP" -- I was "AP" before I had even heard of the term.
Well said!

Quote:

The last issue *for me* that I think about with stroller use is consumerism. It is a big problem that we feel like we "need" so many things for our children. I would love to see more discussion on parents taking a stand against all the crap we are told we "need" to go with our children.

Yes! This is the context in which I usually take such threads about "gadgets". People (not here, usually) need to understand that while certain gadgets have their uses, they aren't all "necessary". I totally HATE the consumer-driven, gadget oriented culture around babies. They're all stroller-bound, bottle-drinking, pacifier-sucking, mobile-playing, crib-sleeping images....one would think you can't have a baby without a credit card from Babys 'R Us!


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## feebeeglee (Nov 30, 2002)




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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

IdentityCrisisMama- Sorry I haven't responded to your question. Let's see, I live in a rural area so walking to town or taking a bus isn't an option. My compromise is that I only drive once a week and fit shopping, errands, storytimes, playgroups, etc into this day. We have woods and a stream, with lots of animals and walking areas around so we keep busy just staying home. My kids are homeschooled (unschooled) and I limit outside homeschool related classes and activities to once a week for now. I shop once a week and get all my bulk items, so we don't have to make extra trips to the store. Ideally it would be great if I didn't have to drive at all, but it was the choice we made by choosing to live outside of a city. Good for you for not using a car. BTW- It is kind of funny that I made it sound like "in-arms parenting" is such a major passion for me. I think my passion is truely striving for a more natural and instinctual lifestyle and parenting style, encompassing but not limited to baby wearing.


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