# The Overlooked Healing Benefits of Crying



## M&Mmommy (Jan 25, 2003)

The subject has come up again about whether holding a baby and listening to her tears and crying while offering her warmth and attachement is tantamount to CIO. I would like to offer a perspective on why unexamined intolerance of any crying is actually short-circuiting an innate healing function that babies are born with.

All benefits of crying, however, are lost and damage is done when a baby or child is left alone to cry without comfort. CIO "works" when the baby enters a form of infant depression, gives up hope of being comforted, and settles into despair ~ which can carry into adulthood. Those children I've read about who were "trained" via CIO and now easily separate from their parents without any anguish are not well-adjusted, but rather have compensated for not being supported when they needed it in the past. The compensations may "work" in terms of allowing the parent and child to separate without tears, but the compensatory mechanism is created at great sacrifice and trauma to the baby and child who had to develop it.

What I have seen in response to the terrible and tragic use of CIO, is a kind of other extreme. We have been taught that crying means we are in pain, and therefore, we can end the pain by ending the crying. It is true that crying is a symptom of pain. But stopping tears does not stop the pain; on the contrary, crying heals the pain. Crying, sweating, shaking, and sceaming release stress and heal emotional and physical pain. Shushing, rocking, even nursing to stop the tears of a child who is hurting short-circuits the healing that the child was so intelligently and intuitively applying.

Many people nod along until they hear that nursing to stop a child from crying is also short-circuiting the healing. After all, nursing is part nourishment, part comfort. However, putting a breast in a baby's mouth when she is crying because (unbeknowst to anyone) the way her blankets are wrapped around her legs is bringing up the scary sensations she experienced during birth, causes her to stop offloading the feelings. On the other hand, if her mother would hold her in arms, soothingly reminding her that she is safe, that it's okay to let out all her fears and cry, she would work through and be able to see that this situation, though reminiscent of a scary situation, isn't dangerous. And moreover, that it is safe to have scary feelings and let them out. No need to push them down, run from them, or be threatened by uncomfortable feelings.

Lest a reader think I am talking in theory only, let me offer a personal example. My DD used to cry and push with her legs really hard. She appeared inconsolable, crying hard but without many tears, red faced and with a panicked look. It scared me terribly to see her so upset. Instead of rocking, shushing, or trying to stop her from expressing her terror, though, I held her gently and maintained eye contact, and talked softly to her: You are very scared. I promise you are safe. Let it out, let it out. She cried and lurched, pushing with her legs and arms against me. I stayed with her, without asking her to stop crying. This happened many times from about one year old until she was just over two. The last time it happened with this ferocity, she was crying and pushing against me (not to get away, but using me as resistance to her mighty pushing), crying loudly and red-faced. Then she stopped, looked right at me, and said, "I was stuck. It was red and wet and I was pulled and it HURT." She buried her face in my lap and cried with many round fat tears. She *was* stuck at birth. Her twin was born quickly, but with her I had to push with her 1/2 way down the birth canal for 2 hours. Then she was pulled out, and yes, I am certain it hurt. She told me this without prompting and without hearing her birth story details before. After this episode, she did get in my arms to cry and push a few more times, but never with the same intensity. She'd smile and say, "But I got out!" and leap off my lap. This is just one example of my children telling me what pain and fear they were working on offloading.

I believe that without being allowed to cry (not "left" or "made" to cry, but allowed to do what they needed to do, cry) they would have pushed many fears down into themselves, substituting eating or distraction for comfort. Then the fears, which don't go away when pushed down, would re-manifest themselves in other ways. I am so happy for them, and proud of them, for freeing themselves of the pain associated with some of their experiences.

If anyone gives thought to the healing benefits of crying, and considers that stopping crying even by loving, gentle ways can short-circuit healing, then I'm glad I wrote this. I mean everything I have said in peace and love for healing all human pain and suffering.

Yours,
M&Mmommy


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

It is sad that crying is no longer seen as a way for the body to heal, but only as a communicator in infants and children who cannot speak about their feelings.

When my children cry, and I have gone thru the 'list', then I will hold them and listen and just love them.

Crying not only heals the physical body, but the spiritual as well.

Crying is not always about grief.

My children's independance is more about how safe they feel, and not about how detached they are.


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## M&Mmommy (Jan 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
It is sad that crying is no longer seen as a way for the body to heal, but only as a communicator in infants and children who cannot speak about their feelings.

When my children cry, and I have gone thru the 'list', then I will hold them and listen and just love them.

Crying not only heals the physical body, but the spiritual as well.

Crying is not always about grief.

My children's independance is more about how safe they feel, and not about how detached they are.

I am so glad you wrote that about independence, too. Your whole post is just what I meant to say, and so succinctly. Thank you!


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)




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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I think there are certain kinds of tears that simply need to be cried, and when a child is crying because she's sad, it's disrespectful to try to shush her. When my mom died, we all cried, and it was good, and healing.

With that said, I think most of the time small children cry, it's because they have an unmet need and they're attempting to communicate that need in order for it to be met. If my baby or toddler cried, I nursed her, changed her, rocked her, sang to her, stroked her... in short, tried to meet her needs. I don't think the message was that crying was bad; it was that I had heard her message and was trying to help her. I don't believe babies and toddlers need to cry - I think they need to be cared for.

My daughter rarely cried as a baby or toddler, and never for very long, because I tried to help meet her needs. She spent 3 long hours and 16 long minutes in the birth canal, too, doing a 180 on the way out. It hasn't bothered her since she got here - no unresolved angst at all.

Dar


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
I think there are certain kinds of tears that simply need to be cried, and when a child is crying because she's sad, it's disrespectful to try to shush her. When my mom died, we all cried, and it was good, and healing.

With that said, I think most of the time small children cry, it's because they have an unmet need and they're attempting to communicate that need in order for it to be met. If my baby or toddler cried, I nursed her, changed her, rocked her, sang to her, stroked her... in short, tried to meet her needs. I don't think the message was that crying was bad; it was that I had heard her message and was trying to help her. I don't believe babies and toddlers need to cry - I think they need to be cared for.









:

AND- if a baby is crying and nursing STOPS the crying then the baby NEEDED to nurse, whether they were hungry or not. It is a comfort. It is cruel to withhold that comfort in the name of letting the child cry.

-Angela


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## Bufomander (Feb 6, 2005)

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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I don't believe that crying is good for health for babies. Maybe I'm not understanding your post very well.

Crying is part of human nature for all of us, but that's a different kind of crying than babies do. A mother who is in tune with her child will soon learn the language of crying and often be able to tell the difference between a "diaper change" cry and a "hungry" cry.

If the child cannot be consoled by the traditional manner by meeting basic needs, the mother needs to consider the fact that the child might be suffering from pain. I was told over and over that my baby, who cried a lot and was not soothed, was just colicy. I later learned that she had severe reflux, an inflamed, bleeding esophagus, and was in extreme pain.

My daughter's Ped GI specialist said absolutely do not let her CIO (she didn't know yet that I was against this, she was just giving basic advice). She said crying causes a baby to swallow air, increase their stress hormones, increase acid production in the stomach, increase muscle spasms in the stomach (and therefore makes reflux worse), and can lead to attachment problems. She said if Nitara was crying and I couldn't get her to stop, then I needed to bring her in.

With older kids, I do believe that crying is much better than saying "You're okay, now go and play." My dd1 is very sensitive and cries a lot over the smallest things. A lot of times I think she just needs to cry and be assured that she is loved and safe, and that her feelings are valid. I let her cry and I hold her and then she gets over it. I wouldn't say that the crying is good for herl. I would rather she feel happy and settled and not have a need to cry at all. But when she's in that kind of mood, I'm glad I can be there to help her get through it.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
I think there are certain kinds of tears that simply need to be cried, and when a child is crying because she's sad, it's disrespectful to try to shush her. When my mom died, we all cried, and it was good, and healing.

With that said, I think most of the time small children cry, it's because they have an unmet need and they're attempting to communicate that need in order for it to be met. If my baby or toddler cried, I nursed her, changed her, rocked her, sang to her, stroked her... in short, tried to meet her needs. I don't think the message was that crying was bad; it was that I had heard her message and was trying to help her. I don't believe babies and toddlers need to cry - I think they need to be cared for.

My daughter rarely cried as a baby or toddler, and never for very long, because I tried to help meet her needs. She spent 3 long hours and 16 long minutes in the birth canal, too, doing a 180 on the way out. It hasn't bothered her since she got here - no unresolved angst at all.

Dar

May you continue to be blessed. Not all mothers are able to say they have had the same birth experience as you.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *USAmma*
A mother who is in tune with her child will soon learn the language of crying and often be able to tell the difference between a "diaper change" cry and a "hungry" cry.

And one that signifies healing. No one is saying to make a baby cry by not meeting it's needs. We are saying that if you are in-tune you will recognize that 'cry' for what it is, the need to heal.

My own infants rarely cried and never cried to eat or sleep or be changed. They made certain noises or faces and I knew what they needed immediately.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
May you continue to be blessed. Not all mothers are able to say they have had the same birth experience as you.

Wait - I was actively pushing for 3 hours and 16 minutes, and my 9 pounds baby twisted completely around in the birth canal (from face up to face down). How was I blessed, exactly? I remember begging the midwife to shoot me at one point, to put me out of my misery...

Dar


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
Wait - I was actively pushing for 3 hours and 16 minutes, and my 9 pounds baby twisted completely around in the birth canal (from face up to face down). How was I blessed, exactly? I remember begging the midwife to shoot me at one point, to put me out of my misery...

Dar

I meant in reference to your baby not having any angst about her birth. Some have not even made it through the canal and had to be cut out. Some were born and taken from their mothers. There are all sorts of traumas that occur, and it sounded like you said you didn't have any.


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## dynamohumm6 (Feb 22, 2005)

No offense, but can you back this statement up with anything other than anecdotal evidence?

Quote:

However, putting a breast in a baby's mouth when she is crying because (unbeknowst to anyone) the way her blankets are wrapped around her legs is bringing up the scary sensations she experienced during birth, causes her to stop offloading the feelings.
If my son is crying, and I nurse him and that's not what he wants, he just won't nurse.
I'm just curious where you're coming up with this theory.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

I think it is really great that you knew why your baby was crying and what your specific child, who is old enough to speak to you, needed to do.

However, this forum is Life with a BABE. And since there are a lot of new mom's who come here for advice and guidance, I am not quite sure what you are hoping to accomplish with your OP.

As our babies grow sometimes we can determine why they are crying and if they are just blowing off some steam. But all in all, MDC should be a safe haven from people telling us we need to let our babies cry. Most of us hear enough of that nonsense IRL.


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## Beeblebrox (Apr 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dynamohumm6*
No offense, but can you back this statement up with anything other than anecdotal evidence?

If my son is crying, and I nurse him and that's not what he wants, he just won't nurse.
I'm just curious where you're coming up with this theory.


I thought the exact same thing. If DD is crying and wants to be nursed for nourishment or comfort, then she'll accept the breast. If not, she simply won't. No attempts at giving her my breast will work. So she is never subdued by my breast without wanting it first.

Also, as for shushing...when I shush DD it isn't to shut her up, it's because she likes the rythmic sound. It's white noise. It blocks out any other sounds and puts her in a state of calm. She knows I'm not telling her to be quiet. I'm, in fact, giving her the opportunity to tune it all out and just hear me while I gently rock and stroke her hair.

I can understand that sometimes people just need to cry to vent their frustration, but I do believe there is a point when I baby needs help calming back down. Rocking, white noise, gentle words, nursing.


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dynamohumm6
No offense, but can you back this statement up with anything other than anecdotal evidence?

If my son is crying, and I nurse him and that's not what he wants, he just won't nurse.
I'm just curious where you're coming up with this theory.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsChicopea*
I thought the exact same thing. If DD is crying and wants to be nursed for nourishment or comfort, then she'll accept the breast. If not, she simply won't. No attempts at giving her my breast will work. So she is never subdued by my breast without wanting it first.

Also, as for shushing...when I shush DD it isn't to shut her up, it's because she likes the rythmic sound. It's white noise. It blocks out any other sounds and puts her in a state of calm. She knows I'm not telling her to be quiet. I'm, in fact, giving her the opportunity to tune it all out and just hear me while I gently rock and stroke her hair.

I can understand that sometimes people just need to cry to vent their frustration, but I do believe there is a point when I baby needs help calming back down. Rocking, white noise, gentle words, nursing.

I have to quote both of you because I agree. If DS is crying but not hungry and I offer him the breast, not only will he not take it, but he will bite me if I insist!

With all due respect to the OP, your last post on CIA seemed bizarre and this does too. If DS's legs are tangled in the blankets and I offer him the breast, he isn't going to stop crying until I remove the blankets. So crying is serving a purpose--to remove the blankets. This theory of CIA to release *whatever* seems long on assumptions better applied to adults, IMO.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

I would agree that 9 times out of 10, a baby cries because of an unmet need that can be identified and met, like Dar said. But there is that mysterious tenth time where you have tried everything and the baby keeps on crying, until you are wondering if you should go to the emergency room - then the baby calms down and seems fine.







I've had this experience with both kids. Personally I think it's to let off accumulated stress, sensory overload, etc.

With babies and young toddlers, preverbal children basically, I think it's best to try to address any physical need that may be causing the crying, before taking the CIA approach. But it's true that sometimes they just cry for no cause that is apparent to us, and then you really have no choice but to just hold them and try to reassure them.

Personally I think nursing and rocking are valid forms of emotional support. It's not like going out and buying a second grader a hot fudge sundae to cheer her up about not making the soccer team.


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## curlyfry (Feb 16, 2005)

If my babe is crying and nursing helps, I will nurse her. I hope the new mamas here will do the same.


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
My daughter rarely cried as a baby or toddler, and never for very long, because I tried to help meet her needs.

When I brought ds home from the hospital, I couldn't believe how much he cried. Unlike any other newborn I ever knew, he slept little and cried A LOT. I was doing everything I could to soothe him. I would put him in the wrap, in the swing, in the bouncer, carry him, sing to him, play music, hold him, desperately try to nurse (which he would angrily reject), put him in the stroller, drive in the car, back to the wrap, try feeding again. I mean, I was so incredibly frustrated and I felt like such a complete failure. My last resort was to come and post on MDC where I received at least some reassurance that babies do indeed have a need to cry (maybe not all babies) but that holding them and letting them know you are there for them is extremely important. And that's what I did and that's what I kept doing and now at 5 mos., I'm at the point where ds only gets cranky/cries when he is ready to sleep. I simply can't believe I'm at this point because it was initially so bad. In my heart, I know ds needed to let it out. I wish I knew what was causing his stress but my trying to stop him from crying frustrated me and frustrated him. He would wail and wail sometimes and then . . . silence--he'd either fall asleep or just look at me dreamily. It was so weird.

Anyway, my point in all this is . . . at least for myself I tried to help meet all my babies needs and he still cried. I would say it's a blessing to have a baby who rarely cries (and I know babies like this) but for those babies who do, it's very re-assuring to know that babies are human and that they need to let off steam sometimes and I believe this is what the OP was getting at. I really hope this discussion doesn't degenerate into another "I'm more AP than you" debate.

Oh, MitB . . . I really liked what you said, "My children's independance is more about how safe they feel, and not about how detached they are." Words to live by.


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## Beeblebrox (Apr 6, 2005)

I don't think this is turning into a I'm more AP than you debate.

I just take issue with saying that offering a breast to your crying baby is stifiling them. If it is what the baby wants, it's what they want and as evidenced by your DC (pp) if they don't want it, they won't take it.


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## curlyfry (Feb 16, 2005)

: Chicopea


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

I absolutely do believe that newborns will just cry. We had our crying time pretty steadily every evening between 7-9 (and at various other times as well). But I absolutely do not believe that my attempts to soothe ds was in any way "short-circuiting the healing".


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## M&Mmommy (Jan 25, 2003)

Dear Mothers,

First I'd like to take a giant step backward and clear up some misunderstandings.

First, You all have my sincere appreciation and acknowledgement for being loving parents who are not just shoving your nipples into your childrens' mouths to stop them from crying. Far from it! I apologize sincerely for giving the impression that you were forcing yourselves on your children. That is not my intention at all.

Second, MODS: please move this thread to Parenting Issues. I really thought I was posting in Parenting Issues, not Life with a Babe, I don't know how I ended up putting it in the wrong place. Although I happen to believe that babies have real and big emotions that need outlet via crying, I understand that the advice I am advocating about listening could be misunderstood by some as CIO for babies. Again, 100% not my intent, but to be safe, please move this thread.

Third, please understand that I am talking about using *any* method to stop a child or baby from crying - not just nursing for comfort - I'm talking about all the things we have been taught to do to stop the upset. Shushing, bouncing, tickling, distracting, using a pacifier and sometimes even nursing. I think stopping a release of tears via any of the methods above, for the sake of stopping the tears, in a misguided attempt to stop the pain, is short-circuiting the release and healing of the pain.

Finally, let me point everyone to some authors who are better at expressing what I am trying to say. I did a search on Mothering.com and found the following articles in support of listening to babies and children when they are upset and crying rather than distracting them or trying to stop their tears.

http://www.mothering.com/articles/gr.../tantrums.html

http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...onnection.html

http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...ion-side1.html

http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...ion-side2.html

In warm and supportive spirit,
M&Mmommy


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rootzdawta*
Anyway, my point in all this is . . . at least for myself I tried to help meet all my babies needs and he still cried.

I just want to clarify that I know that this is true... my younger sister was born when I was twelve, and she cried a lot... and she was breastfed on demand and had 4 pairs of arms always available to hold her, and still she cried. I personally think she cried because her nervous system was immature and she had colic, and I'm not sure crying actually helped her... but I do know that we all tried to meet her needs and she still cried. I was actually amazed to have a baby who only cried if she wanted something... of course, she wanted things like constant holding in particular positions, but still, I could do something about it... with my sister we all felt very powerless.

She was at her worst from about 4 weeks to 3-4 months, and mostly during the early evening hours... and by 6 months she had pretty much outgrown it... FWIW.

Dar


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

My 3 month old DD has a very clear "diaper" cry, "potty" cry (we EC part time), "nursies" cry and a "I want you Mommy" cry. I respond promptly and appropriately to each of these cues.

She also has a cry that is very different...she doesn't do this as much now as compared to when she was newborn, but when she does, I sense that she is working through something on an emotional/spiritual level. We had a very traumatic, violent birth experience and I can't help but feel that she is remembering it. When this happens, I just hold her and offer her my loving presence and acceptance that she needs to go through this and express her fear, frustration or whatever emotion is coming up for her at that moment.

I just started working with a wonderful craniosacral therapist who specializes in birth trauma resolution...I went there initially for my own issues but am learning so much about how much babies need to process the birth experience as well, especially when conditions were less than optimal as in our case.

I can relate very much with the OP, thank you so much for bringing up this topic. Honestly, this is not a discussion regarding CIO at all...believe me...I am super anti CIO.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kidspiration*
I just started working with a wonderful craniosacral therapist who specializes in birth trauma resolution...I went there initially for my own issues but am learning so much about how much babies need to process the birth experience as well, especially when conditions were less than optimal as in our case.

I can relate very much with the OP, thank you so much for bringing up this topic. Honestly, this is not a discussion regarding CIO at all...believe me...I am super anti CIO.

I don't know about yours, but my Dd saw a craniosacral therapist a few times as an infant, at the recommendation of my chiropractor, and I had to stop seeing him. As a baby, my Dd rarely cried, but she didn't like the craniosacral treatment and would start to cry, so I would begin to comfort her. The craniosacral therapist told me a bunch of crap about how I should just allow her to cry, that she needs to cry everyday for her neurological development







. Man, I was out of there. Anyone tells me not to comfort my child when she cries, well, plain and simply, I know that's wrong. I know that's damaging. Again, my Dd rarely cried. If crying was necessary for her
Yes, crying is a release and should not be discouraged, but comforting and taking care of a baby's needs is never a bad thing.


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## Beeblebrox (Apr 6, 2005)

I just wanted to clarify that I do understand and appreciate the concept of crying in arms. It got me through many sleepless and emotionally draining nights when DD could not be calmed through any means. It's just that the OP originally came through seeming to say that we shouldn't comfort as that is an attempt to deny them their need to cry. I know that is not what was meant, but that is how it came across to some people.

I don't want the OP to feel like they're being attacked for putting this out there, I just wanted them to understand where some of the other moms are coming from who aren't agreeing with them.


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

Quote:

I don't know about yours, but my Dd saw a craniosacral therapist a few times as an infant, at the recommendation of my chiropractor, and I had to stop seeing him. As a baby, my Dd rarely cried, but she didn't like the craniosacral treatment and would start to cry, so I would begin to comfort her. The craniosacral therapist told me a bunch of crap about how I should just allow her to cry, that she needs to cry everyday for her neurological development . Man, I was out of there. Anyone tells me not to comfort my child when she cries, well, plain and simply, I know that's wrong. I know that's damaging. Again, my Dd rarely cried. If crying was necessary for her
I'm sorry that your craniosacral therapist told you not to comfort your child. That does not seem right at all.

I do know from having taken some basic craniosacral courses myself that crying (and nursing) are seen as very effective ways for a baby to adjust their own cranial bones as needed. But I think this thread is oriented towards the emotional aspect of crying and so we will leave that thought for now.

My therapist comes at this from a standpoint that my DD, when she cries (and again, not the "I need something" cry...OF COURSE you attend to that!) that she is releasing and expressing an EMOTION, and to lovingly support her through that by accepting and validating.

It's like this...if you're upset and crying, which would you prefer...someone to tell you "oh, don't cry" and do things to make you stop crying...OR to say that they're there for you, to offer you physical comfort while also validating your feelings and allowing you the space to express and work through your emotions?

Again, as I said in my previous post, this is NOT really a discussion about CIO. And before I had my sweet baby (who is not a cry-er in general at all, by the way), I would have thought to do anything to not let my baby cry, personally being a huge non-CIO advocate. However, after experiencing the birth that we did, and being incredibly bonded to my daughter, I can now understand that there are some moments when she is crying that she is needing to do so to satisfy a need on an emotional level. At these moments, I hold her close to me, rock her and instead of approaching this with the intent of "how do I help her stop crying?", I accept that she is crying and releasing and tell her how much she is loved and that she is ok. And surprisingly enough, when I switched my own intent...she cried less! INTENT is the key word here, my friends. And it is not a passive thing on my part at all...I wouldn't even call it CIO in arms, because there is most definitely an exchange going on between us. On the outside, it may look to you like I'm "letting" her cry. But you wouldn't be able to tell how closely I'm holding her to me, and you wouldn't be able to hear the the words of love and acceptance that I'm whispering in her ear.

Many people, especially women, in this society learn to stifle their feelings and to not fully express themselves...I have only recently learned to accept all of my feelings, especially the negative ones. I don't want my little daughter to have to go through that. I'm hoping that by starting NOW by letting her express herself in this way, that she will grow up well adjusted and accepting all of her feelings and knowing deep down beyond a shadow of a doubt that I will always love and accept her, and that she is free to feel and express all of her emotions, positive or negative.

We also live in a society where babies are seen as eating-pooping-crying-sleeping machines, and I don't think many people are attuned to the fact that our little ones, from even before birth, have emotional experiences, ability to recall these experiences, and the need to express and work through them.


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## jennygoat (Jan 19, 2006)

My 10 week daughter is trying to make talk noises. I talk to her & she makes realy cute ahhh's and squeaks. You can tell she is concentrating and thinking hard. Then after a few minutes of talking she starts crying, I just hold her and tell how good and smart she is after a few minutes she calms down and I try to interest her in physical play or she naps. I am sure
she wants to talk and be understood and is just so frustrated. I know she also gets frustrated when she wants to go somewhere and can't. Of course they just need love and hugs sometimes - its hard work being a baby!
If I tryed to stop the crying or put her down to CIO wouldn't that discourage the behavor that caused it? I want to encourage her to talk and crawl.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boongirl*
But, *doing nothing* but letting them cry is not helping them either. As attached parents, we are emotionally responsive to our children.

Show where anyone said they did 'nothing'. We are doing something, we are actively listening and allowing our babies to heal. That is part of being "emotionally responsive" parents.

I feel bad when people cannot or do not know how to allow the human body to heal. The human body is not a vehicle, even though modern medicine treats it that way. "Your knee is bad, we'll just replace it."

It is the same as the immune system. So many people think it doesn't exist or does not work, so they get vaccinated.

The human body not only has a defense system for protection, but also a healing system.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jennygoat*
My 10 week daughter is trying to make talk noises. I talk to her & she makes realy cute ahhh's and squeaks. You can tell she is concentrating and thinking hard. Then after a few minutes of talking she starts crying, I just hold her and tell how good and smart she is after a few minutes she calms down and I try to interest her in physical play or she naps. I am sure
she wants to talk and be understood and is just so frustrated. I know she also gets frustrated when she wants to go somewhere and can't. Of course they just need love and hugs sometimes - its hard work being a baby!
If I tryed to stop the crying or put her down to CIO wouldn't that discourage the behavor that caused it? I want to encourage her to talk and crawl.

Thank you for that excellent description of the interaction between you and your infant. You are right in that it would discourage her wanting to speak to you.
I have seen too many times a parent who says they know all their baby's cry's, and I am sad that they would wait until their child is crying or being loud in order to be heard.
All I needed was a look, and I knew exactly what they needed.

Even now, my 9 yo dd will come in and hold my hand and cry if she's had a hard day. She doesn't throw fits or fall apart. After she is done crying, it's like it completely cleans her mind of everything 'bad' and she is able to clearly see what occured that day and why it affected her and how to address the situation.

My 9 yo ds will lay in my lap and cry, but he hasn't quite learned how to analyze a situation the way his sister can, so, we do take a little longer pin-pointing what exactly has him upset.

That only occurs maybe twice a month, if that.


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## M&Mmommy (Jan 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kidspiration*
It's like this...if you're upset and crying, which would you prefer...someone to tell you "oh, don't cry" and do things to make you stop crying...OR to say that they're there for you, to offer you physical comfort while also validating your feelings and allowing you the space to express and work through your emotions?

Yes, exactly! The key is to agree that babies and children have big emotional lives and need to have their feelings validated in warm and accepting connection, not just quickly resolved via soothing techniques.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kidspiration*
... after experiencing the birth that we did, and being incredibly bonded to my daughter, I can now understand that there are some moments when she is crying that she is needing to do so to satisfy a need on an emotional level. At these moments, I hold her close to me, rock her and instead of approaching this with the intent of "how do I help her stop crying?", I accept that she is crying and releasing and tell her how much she is loved and that she is ok. And surprisingly enough, when I switched my own intent...she cried less! INTENT is the key word here, my friends. And it is not a passive thing on my part at all...I wouldn't even call it CIO in arms, because there is most definitely an exchange going on between us. On the outside, it may look to you like I'm "letting" her cry. But you wouldn't be able to tell how closely I'm holding her to me, and you wouldn't be able to hear the the words of love and acceptance that I'm whispering in her ear.

Yes, this is how my experience has been as well. Congratulations on going against the tide of well-wishers who would wonder why on earth you aren't fixing your DD's problem. Not everyone would see you holding your baby while she cries, no matter how closely and lovingly, and not tell themselves you are doing something wrong or your child would stop crying.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kidspiration*
Many people, especially women, in this society learn to stifle their feelings and to not fully express themselves...I have only recently learned to accept all of my feelings, especially the negative ones. I don't want my little daughter to have to go through that. I'm hoping that by starting NOW by letting her express herself in this way, that she will grow up well adjusted and accepting all of her feelings and knowing deep down beyond a shadow of a doubt that I will always love and accept her, and that she is free to feel and express all of her emotions, positive or negative.

OMG, I think I love you. These are my intentions for my daughters too, and I came to the same conclusion as you have about society demanding that women and girls be pleasant and happy OR ELSE. All feelings are accepted here. Man,woman, boy and girl.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kidspiration*
We also live in a society where babies are seen as eating-pooping-crying-sleeping machines, and I don't think many people are attuned to the fact that our little ones, from even before birth, have emotional experiences, ability to recall these experiences, and the need to express and work through them.

Again, thank you. You write far more succinctly than I. If anyone does not believe what you've written to be true, they will have a very hard time hearing that their child will benefit from having a good cry in loving arms when big feelings come up.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Even now, my 9 yo dd will come in and hold my hand and cry if she's had a hard day. She doesn't throw fits or fall apart. After she is done crying, it's like it completely cleans her mind of everything 'bad' and she is able to clearly see what occured that day and why it affected her and how to address the situation.

My 9 yo ds will lay in my lap and cry, but he hasn't quite learned how to analyze a situation the way his sister can, so, we do take a little longer pin-pointing what exactly has him upset.

My hat's off to you. You are heading into the 'tweens and teens with a boy and girl who feel safe to offload with you. That's awesome!

As a mother of two preschoolers, I'd like to add that I continue to listen in warm connection when my girls' emotions flare. Just this morning, one was so angry that her sister was telling her what to do. "I don't want HER!" she cried through tears. I held her and validated her feelings, "It's frustrating having someone tell you what to do. You want her to leave you alone." Yes! she cried and a few more tears came down. Then she went back to breakfast and told her sister, "Even when I don't want you, I do want you." I believe this is a set of twins who are diffusing the feelings that could have turned into sibling rivalry, and it is because all feelings are welcome here. Nothing is taboo, no feelings need to be denied, hidden, or feared.

Peace and warm kindness,
M&Mmommy


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Eh. I imagine one's appreciation of this theory has much to do with anecdotal experience and not so much on provable fact. Fer instance - I had a totally awesome birth and pregnancy, great labor at home in the watertub, yada yada. Yet, my son had colic from 2.5-5 weeks. He screamed and screamed for 5-8 hours a night, no sleeping. A person might go insane. It was exhausting to listen to. He hated nursing (loves it now). I would try everything...including listening empathetically...yet - still with the screaming and the yelling.

The Happiest Baby on the Block helped us so much to calm him down. Swaddling, shushing, and movement helped him to center. You could see peace in his eyes after doing this, whereas there was only franticness before. I think a lot of baby fussing is due - in our case - to overstimulation and neurological immaturity, not trauma or deeply held feelings.

So there's our anecdote! I am sure someone can rebut mine with their own.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boongirl*
Mamaintheboonies - I don't see "active listening" as something a baby can understand or benefit from.

Does this help explain?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *M&Mmommy*

Quote:

Originally Posted by kidspiration
It's like this...if you're upset and crying, which would you prefer...someone to tell you "oh, don't cry" and do things to make you stop crying...OR to say that they're there for you, to offer you physical comfort while also validating your feelings and allowing you the space to express and work through your emotions?

Yes, exactly! The key is to agree that babies and children have big emotional lives and need to have their feelings validated in warm and accepting connection, not just quickly resolved via soothing techniques.


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## M&Mmommy (Jan 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boongirl*
I would comfort and love and after the tears are done, I would talk and listen and ask my child what could be done to help the situation.

Me, too. I guess I have made myself as (mis)understood as possible at this point.









Off to find something else to do,
M&Mmommy


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

You know, a tiny baby doesn't know whether you're saying, "Yes, I'm here for you, please go ahead and cry" or "The moon is made of blue cheese and we shall go there someday." Active listening is pretty pointless if the person being listened to doesn't speak your language...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boongirl*
I don't see active listening as taking care of any of the needs that my baby has when crying. Even in an older child, one who can verbalize their discomfort, I would never do just listening. I would never do anything to stifle the crying but I also would not just sit there and listen to the crying. I would comfort and love and after the tears are done, I would talk and listen and ask my child what could be done to help the situation. If the act of crying itself is enough to end the problem, so be it, but I would also try to help in other ways, if needed.

I agree. Trying to comfort a child does not mean trying to stop him from crying, it means trying to resolve the reason for his crying. It's an important distinction. If the crying itself resolves the problem, fine, but I guess I don't see most small babies as having quite as much unresolved existential angst as some posters seem to - I think mostly they cry because they're hungry, or sleepy, or in pain, or uncomfortable.

Teens, now... that's another story. Although I still try to comfort my teen, and problem-solve with her is possible, I know that often her tears are just an expression of emotions that needs to come out. She had a thousand other ways to communicate, though, unlike a baby. If she's hungry or in pain or uncomfortable, she has many ways to change that. A baby has very few, and the biggest one is crying.

Dar


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
You know, a tiny baby doesn't know whether you're saying, "Yes, I'm here for you, please go ahead and cry" or "The moon is made of blue cheese and we shall go there someday." Active listening is pretty pointless if the person being listened to *doesn't speak your language*...

I know a human infant can communicate with it's human mother. Maybe not in spoken English, but certainly without needing to cry before getting it's needs met.
Also, it has been proven in many studies that infants learn language from being spoken to in that language. I think you will damage your child's trust if you constantly repeat false statements while meeting its needs.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
- I think mostly they cry because they're *hungry*, or *sleepy*, or *in pain*, or uncomfortable....
A baby has very few, and *the biggest one is crying*.

Dar

To me, that sounds like it borders on cruelty. To wait until your baby is crying before meeting it's needs.
I understand having a baby in pain, and it just takes time for the body to heal, and in the meantime I did what I could, warm bath, cool washcloth, anything to help ease the physical pain.

Just think if you have never seen the world before! It's all completely new! Just think how overwhelmed you would be just as an adult who was forced to interact with everyone at your local shopping mall or grocer, kwim?
I use that analogy just to give you an idea of how much 'vague' information you are bombarded with.

Now, of course, if you had to do that everyday, eventually you wouldn't be so overwhelmed and would begin to be comfortable and soo, you would feel as if you had mastered the entire thing, right?


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## Shanana (May 11, 2005)

DD and I had a very traumatic 3 day birth, and then they did deep-suctioning to her due to meconium staining. Nursing was horrible, horrible, horrible. She would pull off and scream and scream. We were up until 4 AM every night, she was starving, but every time she nursed she would start crying. I wondered if it was thrush. No. Reflux? No. What? What? What? What? Why was she doing this? Why wouldn't she eat? Those were some of the worst days of my entire life, I was getting no sleep and crying almost as much as she was.

Then we started going for craniosacral therapy, and I did crying in arms a few times. We now have a totally normal nursing relationship. She also has digestive problems, really gassy, unable to poop (exclusively BF), and we've been getting CST to help with that. I have also been going for myself. At her CST session last week, she finally opened up and released and cried (not top of the lungs, can't breathe screaming ... just crying). I held her and let her cry, told her she was safe and loved. But after a while got a very strong sense that she was angry with me for not protecting her (from the suctioning, etc.). I know she had to go through that because it was done to protect her from infection, but she still has the right to be upset about it and angry because she had to go through it. I looked in her eyes and told her I was sorry she had to go through that, and sorry that I hadn't protected her, and I told her I loved her so much. Within 10 seconds, the crying stopped, the sun came out and she started smiling and laughing, and had this incredible lightness to her. The next night she had a huge poop (without my help), and her gassiness has gone WAAAAY down. I'm actually able to sleep at night now because she isn't kicking me continuously as she squirms from the gas pains.

I remember crying so hard about nursing her, and begging, pleading to know what was wrong and how could I fix it. I would have given anything to not have my baby scream every time I nursed her. Nursing is supposed to comfort a baby, but she just screamed. I am so unbelievably grateful that we were able to sort this out, and that now I AM able to comfort dd by nursing when that is what she wants. She is now one of the happiest babies I've ever seen. Smiling and laughing all the time. Everywhere we go we get comments about how happy she is.

OP and kidspiration, I think you wrote about this issue beautifully. I know that coming to this realization and helping my dd process and express her emotions has resulted in a much happier baby, and hopefully one whose emotions won't fester and turn into physical illness. I was originally so miserable at the experience we had, but now I realize it's because there was a very important lesson to learn, and I'm grateful that I was given the opportunity to learn it. I apologize that this post is not written very elegantly, but I'm in a hurry so just trying to get everything down.

Is this anecdotal? Yup. But it's MY life, and it's a whole heck of a lot better now, and that's all that matters to me







. Each of us has to find our own path and figure out what works for us and our own babies. This is what worked for me.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I know a human infant can communicate with it's human mother. Maybe not in spoken English, but certainly without needing to cry before getting it's needs met.

That has nothing to do with what I said. Does he understand English well enough to realize that although you're choosing not to comfort him, you are verbally validating his pain? No, I don't think so.

Quote:

Also, it has been proven in many studies that infants learn language from being spoken to in that language. I think you will damage your child's trust if you constantly repeat false statements while meeting its needs.
Please read my post again. I never said anything of the sort to my child.

Quote:

To me, that sounds like it borders on cruelty. To wait until your baby is crying before meeting it's needs.
Again, nowhere did I say that I did this. My child rarely cried... but if she was unhappy, the clearest and most powerful way she has to communicate this is by crying.

Quote:

I understand having a baby in pain, and it just takes time for the body to heal, and in the meantime I did what I could, warm bath, cool washcloth, anything to help ease the physical pain.
I thought before you said you "actively listened and allowed our babies to heal". So warm baths and cool cloths are okay, but nursing isn't? They're both intended to comfort...

dar


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
That has nothing to do with what I said. Does he understand English well enough to realize that although you're choosing not to comfort him, you are verbally validating his pain? No, I don't think so.

That was not said. It was stated that it is okay to speak while comforting your baby.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
I thought before you said you "actively listened and allowed our babies to heal". So warm baths and cool cloths are okay, but *nursing* isn't? They're both *intended to comfort*...

dar

I agree, nursing should not be used for comfort, but as a means of nourishment. Same as ff babies and giving them the bottle everytime they cry can lead to eating disorders. It teaches them to eat, rather than heal.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Hmmm...children around the world are nursed for comfort, but eating disorders are a uniquely Western phenomenon. It's quite a stretch to me, baby eating for comfort leads to eating disorders...


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I agree, nursing should not be used for comfort, but as a means of nourishment.

Excuse me? Nursing ABSOLUTELY SHOULD be used as a means of comfort. NOT just nourishment.

-Angela


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama*
Hmmm...*children around the world are nursed for comfort*, but eating disorders are a uniquely Western phenomenon. It's quite a stretch to me, baby eating for comfort leads to eating disorders...

I have never heard of that before. There are absolutely no formula fed people in my ancestry, and from generation to generation, it is taught not to nurse/feed for comfort. There is a difference from nursing-on-demand and comfort nursing vs nursing to comfort.
It has been shown in studies that "comfort nursing" is actually part of an infant's growing patterns and that is how the infant increases it's milk supply.

"Nursing to comfort" is the same as feeding to comfort, or teaching that, in order to feel comforted, one must eat/nurse, rather than allow the body to heal and adjust.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna*
Excuse me? Nursing ABSOLUTELY SHOULD be used as a means of comfort. NOT just nourishment.

-Angela

Why do you believe that?


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## Jish (Dec 12, 2001)

My ds3 was a dream baby, rarely cried and when he did we knew exactly what he needed and we could take care of it.

My ds1 cried _all the time_. I don't say that lightly. He nursed an hour of every two, only slept in arms, and if he was awake, he was crying about 85% of the time. Talk about hard to live with. I held him all the time. I would try to find out what was making him cry but there just didn't always seem to be a reason, or if their was, we couldn't figure it out. We just had to chalk it up to colic, or that he was a fussy baby. It was heartbreaking, but we were with him when he cried and I'm hoping that he knew he was loved even though we couldn't solve whatever issue we couldn't figure out. Some kids are just fussier than others.

Now to the real reason for my post. Several years ago there was a study published about babies who cried excessively -- babies that would be classified as having classic colic symptoms. These babies were compared to babies who didn't have colic. When the babies cried their blood was drawn and the stress hormones were analyzed. The babies who did not have colic and were crying for some "reason" had elevated levels of cortisol and other stress hormones in their systems. Their heartrates and blood pressures were raised.

When the babies who had colic were analyzed they *did not* have raised levels of cortisol and other stress hormones. Their heartrates and blood pressures were not as high. The babies crying was not due to stress or unmet needs and thus they didn't have the stress reaction of the babies without colic who were crying due to stress. This isn't to say that babies with colic don't ever cry due to stress or because of typical baby needs. What it does do is reassure those of us who had/have truly colicky babies that our babies are alright. Perhaps their crying is due to an underdeveloped neurological system, perhaps it's something else, but this hopefully can help a lot of frazzled parents of colicky babies not feel guilty about their babies crying and their inability to stop it.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
That has nothing to do with what I said. Does he understand English well enough to realize that although you're choosing not to comfort him, you are verbally validating his pain? No, I don't think so.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
That was not said. It was stated that it is okay to speak while comforting your baby.

When was that stated?
The part I responded to was about "actively listening" while your baby was crying, and "validating his feelings". Whether you're saying "validating" things or not, the baby wn't know the difference. He wants comfort, relief, soothing.. not words and "active listening" and "Validation."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dar*
I thought before you said you "actively listened and allowed our babies to heal". So warm baths and cool cloths are okay, but nursing isn't? They're both intended to comfort...


Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I agree, nursing should not be used for comfort, but as a means of nourishment. Same as ff babies and giving them the bottle everytime they cry can lead to eating disorders. It teaches them to eat, rather than heal.

What? You're not agreeing with me, for sure. Of course nursing is intended to comfort! That's the wonder of nursing, that it comforts, feeds, relieves thirst, builds a connection, and lots of other things. I can't believe that anyone who has actually nursed a child could see it as simply a means of nourishment!

Dar


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Why do you believe that?

I have tried not to get sucked into this thread.....but









Ummm...babies suck for comfort, therefore nursing provides this soothing physical comfort. If sucking for comfort is illegal, somebody better notify the manufacturer of oral babies, which are most all of them.









And no, I don't believe their own fingers or a pacifier is preferable to most nursing babies. There are skin to skin contact hormonal changes that have been documented to help babies thrive even.









And the let them cry themselves to comfort in arms with eye contact and verbal "reassurance" instead of patting and shusshing and cuddling theory doesn't cut it imo. Motion and sound also are comforting to babies, some more than others. Actively seeking to comfort someone in whatever way they deem *comfort*able seems to be well......comforting.









And for verbal children, meeting the underlying need or faciliating the underlying needs in some mutually agreeable manner seems to be _advocacy_ and _honoring_ of their emotions as valid. The *act of facilitating* rather than just 'yes you are sad, have a good cry' speaks louder than the words. And of course, when nothing one can do can help, comfort however the child prefers to the extent the child prefers to express their emotions.

Pat


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jish*
My ds1 cried _all the time_. I don't say that lightly. He nursed an hour of every two, only slept in arms, and if he was awake, he was crying about 85% of the time. Talk about hard to live with. *I held him all the time*. I would try to find out what was making him cry but there just didn't always seem to be a reason, or if their was, we couldn't figure it out. ....not feel guilty about their babies crying and their *inability to stop it*.

See, in your post it sounds like exactly what I am talking about. You didn't "give up" and say, "Well, I am unable to stop the crying, so I am gonna just put the baby down." You held your baby, even after you had exhausted all other options.
And there is nothing wrong with having a baby that needs to heal/cry more than another baby.
I am just saying that it is okay to speak to your baby after you have reached that stage. Don't just hold him, but also communicate.
I know, for me, it helps to lower my stress and helps me be patient when my infant needs my full attention.

I say things like, "Mommy is here! I see you. I am right here with you. I love you. I want you to be happy and feel loved." Just some reasurring phrases so they know they have my full attention.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
And for verbal children, meeting the underlying need or faciliating the underlying needs in some mutually agreeable manner seems to be _advocacy_ and _honoring_ of *their emotions as valid.* The *act of facilitating* rather than just 'yes you are sad, have a good cry' speaks louder than the words. And of course, when nothing one can do can help, comfort however the child prefers to the extent the child prefers to express their emotions.

Pat

So, are you saying that an infant can never feel scared, overwhelmed, frustrated, but only comfortable or uncomfortable?


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Kathy Dettwyler on "non-nutritive sucking":
http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detsuck.html

Quote:

At the same time, we really need to start teaching people that breastfeeding is a multi-factorial, complex interaction between two people that has ramifications for the child's nutritional status, to be sure, but also its ability to deal with disease, its physiology, its emotional and cognitive development
For those who don't know her (or of her), Kathy is an anthropologist who has written extensively about breastfeeding, and she's also a mom who breastfed her son.








Here's another one, that talks about reasons to breastfeed besides nutrition:
http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detfreq.html

dar


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

I just have a hard time believing one could force a child to breastfeed for some sort of be-quiet-now comfort. During our halcyon colic days, I certainly couldn't use nursing as my super-secret jujitsu comfort weapon DeLuxe. He would just scream harder when I tried to nurse. So, on to attempt comfort measure number 238.

I imagine we are all somewhat similar in our meanings but the definitions are funny. What is comfort nursing vs. nursing to comfort? I mean, after my son had a quick surgery (not circumcision, thankyouverymuch) it was very wonderful that he was able to nurse right afterwards. Whether it was for comfort, for hunger, for some other reason, I don't know...but it helped us to reconnect and reassured me that he was healthy.

The terminology - What is nursing-on-demand for me is "too much nursing" and "using food as a comfort measure" to Certain Opinionated Relatives. Who never nursed and FF by choice.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

I totally understand the concept that crying can be healing. Heck, I cried the other day for almost an hour and my body needed that purge. I haven't felt this good in a long time. I responded the way that I did because the post was in the Life w/a Babe forum, and also I was feeling a little prickly b/c lately there seems to be posts kinda defending CIO.

I think that we can be in tune with our older toddlers and children and understand when they are frustrated and just need a pair of loving arms or the presence and safety of a parent. I think we are in tune with our babies also, but since they don't know the language yet, a little more is required of us than just talking to them when they are upset. Trying different ways of soothing is a good thing.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
You know, a tiny baby doesn't know whether you're saying, "Yes, I'm here for you, please go ahead and cry" or "The moon is made of blue cheese and we shall go there someday." Active listening is pretty pointless if the person being listened to doesn't speak your language...

I agree. Trying to comfort a child does not mean trying to stop him from crying, it means trying to resolve the reason for his crying. It's an important distinction. If the crying itself resolves the problem, fine, but I guess I don't see most small babies as having quite as much unresolved existential angst as some posters seem to - I think mostly they cry because they're hungry, or sleepy, or in pain, or uncomfortable.

Not only are you making excellent points, you are also cracking me up.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
Kathy Dettwyler on "non-nutritive sucking":
http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detsuck.html

This is what I meant about comfort nursing in traditional societies (that don't have eating disorders). NNS is the norm. Whereas in Western society, we have pacifiers for the NNS, yet still have eating disorders.

Regardless, I think eating disorders is just a nonissue when it comes to breastfeeding. Via studies, the formula-feeding and lack of portion control that comes later are shown to be related; but inverse is true of breastfed babies. BF babies tend to have better portion control as toddlers, and they were certainly comfort nursing some of the time. They control the milk.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*

To me, that sounds like it borders on cruelty. To wait until your baby is crying before meeting it's needs.

No one here is advocating that







I doubt anyone here does that. This is an Attachment Parenting board for cripes sakes.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

I just have to say this and then I will be going to bed:

If your baby is crying and is soothed by nursing,
GO AHEAD AND PUT THAT BOOBIE IN THEIR MOUTH. IT'S AN EXCELLENT FORM OF COMFORT.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *archaeomom*
If your baby is crying and is soothed by nursing,
GO AHEAD AND PUT THAT BOOBIE IN THEIR MOUTH. IT'S AN EXCELLENT FORM OF COMFORT.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Hmm, interesting thread.

I wonder what the OP vs the other PP's views would have been on my oldest DD.

She did not like to be touched as an infant (yes I know very odd and scary, but she is a normal healthy 12 y.o. now).

When I nursed her I had to keep my hands away from her. She was happiest in her stroller. When she cried because she was hungry, tired etc... and I picked her up to meet her needs I found that I had to put her down fairly quickly or she would cry in a more urgent fashion and for a long long time. I found that when I put her down again as soon as possible after meeting her needs, she would calm quickly and be happy again.

I guess the OP would say I should have kept holding her and letting her cry but that never occurred to me.


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## FitMama (Jul 20, 2003)

Comfort nursing/non-nutritive nursing not only soothes my baby, but me as well! It's a win-win. I signed on for this whole bfing thing for both the kids and myself.

Re: crying. Doesn't it depend on one's particular baby? Sounds like many of you moms with more than one child are adept at reading each child's cues. "The overlooked healing benefits of crying"...is painting with too broad a brush. Every child is different.


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## nicholas_mom (Apr 23, 2004)

Quote:

The last time it happened with this ferocity, she was crying and pushing against me (not to get away, but using me as resistance to her mighty pushing), crying loudly and red-faced. Then she stopped, looked right at me, and said, "I was stuck. It was red and wet and I was pulled and it HURT." She buried her face in my lap and cried with many round fat tears. She *was* stuck at birth.
I want to thank you for sharing this because, I also follow Dr. Althea Solter's suggestion. But I did let him nurse when he asked to nurse when he would be so upset.

Anyway.....Want I to thank you is now my son will have a tantrum and say he is stuck. Well, my dh and I always think his emotions are stuck in his body and he is trying to let it out.

Well, he was STUCK AT BIRTH and the doc had to use forceps (I had a really bad midwife!) to get him out. When he has a tantrum now he goes to a corner and says he stuck and he tries to push the walls but it is obvious he is NOT stuck, because he can walk away anytime. It is odd. Now I need to discuss this with dh (he is a psychotherapist). Ds was colicky like your child, too.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FitMama*
Re: crying. Doesn't it depend on one's particular baby? Sounds like many of you moms with more than one child are adept at reading each child's cues. "The overlooked healing benefits of crying"...is painting with too broad a brush. *Every child is different.*

I completely agree, but I also know for a fact that *EVERY* human being *deserves* to be able to cry when they need to heal.
Not be taught how to "stop crying".


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *archaeomom*
I just have to say this and then I will be going to bed:

If your baby is crying and is soothed by nursing,
GO AHEAD AND PUT THAT BOOBIE IN THEIR MOUTH. IT'S AN EXCELLENT FORM OF COMFORT.

ITA, but the OP is not talking about an UNCOMFORTABLE baby, but an infant that needs to HEAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nicholas_mom*
I want to thank you for sharing this because, I also follow Dr. Althea Solter's suggestion. But I did let him nurse when he asked to nurse when he would be so upset.

Anyway.....Want I to thank you is now my son will have a tantrum and say he is stuck. Well, my dh and I always think his emotions are stuck in his body and he is trying to let it out.

Well, he was STUCK AT BIRTH and the doc had to use forceps (I had a really bad midwife!) to get him out. When he has a tantrum now he goes to a corner and says he stuck and he tries to push the walls but it is obvious he is NOT stuck, because he can walk away anytime. It is odd. Now I need to discuss this with dh (he is a psychotherapist). Ds was colicky like your child, too.









You shared an excellent story of how the twoo are related. If your infant had been able to deal with that trauma immediately, maybe he would not have held onto it and felt 'stuck' in releasing his emotions in a healthy and healing manner.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

It is a fuzzy line I think where a lot of people may think "gee, my child may need to cry so I am going to let them" when, in reality they are letting their child CIO.

I agree that when your child is sad, or dissapointed or whatever that it is not right to say "oh you're fine" and try to make them stop crying when at the moment they feel like crying.

However, most infants and babies cry for a reason and most of the time, if not all the time, want to be comforted and soothed -- even if they feel the need to cry for a bit. Withholding things like nursing when you know your baby will be comforted by it, in order to "honor" their "need" to cry seems like a justification for CIO to me.

When our daughter cries I don't soothe her to immediately stop the crying. I soothe her because MOST human beings desire to be empathised with, or soothed, or heard, or comforted when they are upset --- and if my husband or an adult friend felt soothed by something I could provide, I would provide it to comfort them. The fact that the comfort may help them feel better or stop crying isn't my ultimate goal, though it is nice when I can help comfort someone. I wouldn't ever deny my husband or a friend something I could provide that I knew would comfort them because I felt they needed to cry. They are always *allowed* to cry if they feel the need.

The same with our daughter. Allowing her to cry when she is sad/mad/dissapointed (whatever) is far different than withholding something I know will soothe her because *I* have determined that she *needs* to cry. If she needs to cry, she will cry despite my attempts to soothe and comfort.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:

However, *most infants and babies cry for a reason* and most of the time, if not all the time, *want to be comforted and soothed* -- even if they feel the need to cry for a bit. Withholding things like nursing when you know your baby will be comforted by it, in order to "honor" their "need" to cry seems like a justification for CIO to me.
No where has CIO been advocated. I am sorry parents are unable or unwilling to differentiate between their infants needs.

I disagree that an infant mostly cries to be soothed or comforted. I know that when a an infant cries, they have a REASON to cry, and it is important, as an adult and parent, to respond and help the infant, whether it is to "comfort and soothe" while actively listening and allowing the infant to heal.

I think it is wrong and dangerous to constantly believe that, you as the parent, must make your baby stop crying.

Crying does not equal "need to stop crying", as, it has been pointed out that there is a *reason* for an infant to cry.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
ITA, but the OP is not talking about an UNCOMFORTABLE baby, but an infant that needs to HEAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And you do you suggest people differentiate between the two? Really, what exactly does a "need to heal" cry sound like, in an infant? It seems to me that one would try mightily to relieve any possible discomfort first, and then if nothing works *maybe* assume that these are "healing tears"... or else assume that you're been unsucessful in determining their cause, so you will just continue to soothe and comfort as best you know how.

Dar


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

I think the strictly emotional crying is more a toddler/child thing. I can only speak from my own experience, but when DS was a baby, he hardly ever cried. And when he did it was because he needed something. Now as a toddler, he has a richer emotional life and sometimes just needs to cry to express himself. Now when he cries, I know I don't always need to fret and try to find the reason and fix it. Sometimes he just needs to get it all out of his system and I just comfort him. I am thinking that was the point the OP was trying to make.


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## MamaBug (Jun 13, 2003)

I think that so many are getting confused because the word infant was used in the opening post. I guess most ppl feel that an infant has only one way to communicate, crying and that we as mothers must find out the cause to the best of our abilities. Yes there are babies that just need to cry, I would liken it to colic, no reason they just seem to NEED to cry. I feel that I need to find out why my child is/was crying and make it better. If I can't then I will continue to be there for my child.


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## Shanana (May 11, 2005)

This is what I did when my dd cried in the first months of her life (and there was a lot of crying, as I mentioned in my previous post, as well as a frequent refusal to nurse) ... First, check to see if I could identify the cause: Hungry? Tired? Hot? Cold? Wet? Gassy? In pain? Any underlying medical causes (reflux, thrush, etc.)? If the answer was no, then I felt really frustrated. What was wrong with her? Why was she crying? What was I doing wrong? Each additional moment of crying felt like an indictment of my parenting abilities (or lack thereof). DH and I went to herculean lengths to try to stop her -- hours of walking, bouncing, shushing, swaying, trying to get her to nurse, and finally I would cry, and then scream in frustration, "DO SOMETHING. WHY IS THIS HAPPENING? MAKE HER STOP." Collapse on the floor in tears, dh trying to soothe screaming baby and sobbing wife simultaneously.

And then I read the article in Mothering about crying in arms. It was one of the most intense "AHA!" moments of my life. It made so much sense! After that, when dd cried, I still went down my list. When I could not identify an underlying cause, this is what I did: I took really deep breaths and tried to relax. I tried to let go of how uncomfortable her crying made ME. I tried to stop seeing it as an indictment of ME. I tried to stop making it about ME. And I stopped going to herculean lengths to silence her. Instead, I tried to open myself to her, I held her, swayed with her, made my breast available to her (she almost always refused it), and I whispered in her ear, over and over and over that I heard her, that I loved her, that she could let it all out, that I was listening to her, that she was safe and loved, that I would never reject or abandon her. Frequently, I cried too, because it pained me so much to see her like that. My instinct told me that she was traumatized from her birth experience, and it broke my heart to think of her, all alone, moments after birth, held down on a table with bright lights overhead while doctors repeatedly shoved tubes down her nose and throat, suctioning out the meconium-stained amniotic fluid. While I sat helplessly on the other side of the room, in a stupor, waiting to be stitched up, so exhausted from 3 days of labor that I hardly knew what was going on. So I would cry with her, and grieve what happened to us. I tried to hold her tight to me, but she would flail her arms and legs, hitting me. The intensity of the fury that was contained in that tiny body always took my breath away. Standing, swaying, rocking, holding her, allowing her to express her rage was one of the hardest things I have ever done. It felt so personal, like she was attacking me. It sometimes took all of my will not to get angry in return. I would remind myself -- deep breaths, relax, it's okay for her to be angry, or sad, or whatever. And after a while (5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes -- although it seemed like an eternity), the crying would start to subside, and she would take deep, shuddering breaths, and she would finally, finally turn her head to my breast and nurse. And then she would sleep. Thankfully, once I started doing this, her crying subsided considerably, and we only had to do the crying in arms a handful of times.

And we also discovered craniosacral therapy (CST), which helped so much because the therapist can tell by the rhythms of the cranial fluid whether the crying is a psychosomatic release or not. So it gave me even more confidence that she WAS processing an emotional trauma, and it wasn't just me overlooking an unmet need. And now nursing is normal, and her digestion is normalizing, and the crying is practically non-existent (only when hungry or tired or hurt). And I feel really good that I am not stifling my child's emotions in order to meet my own needs (i.e., stopping her crying because it makes me uncomfortable), but instead teaching her that it's safe to express them and I will listen, and I won't judge, criticize or condemn (which is what happened to me when I was growing up).

And that is how it has worked for us. I don't withhold comfort from my child. I don't overlook needs she may have. And, I also allow her to express herself, which sometimes means I have to set aside my discomfort with her crying, and allow her to let it out -- offering comfort all the while, but not using it in a desperate attempt to silence her.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
And you do you suggest people differentiate between the two? Really, what exactly does a "need to heal" cry sound like, in an infant?

Shanana gave an excellent example of how she was able to differentiate her infants needs.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shanana*
I tried to let go of how uncomfortable her crying made ME. I tried to stop seeing it as an indictment of ME. I tried to stop making it about ME.

This part shows how often we forget that an infant has needs, and it is not always about _our_ performance as a parent.
Too often, it is taught that a baby is only a machine-eat, sleep, poop, and cry. Infants are newborn human beings each with their own complex needs/wants.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dynamohumm6*
No offense, but can you back this statement up with anything other than anecdotal evidence?

If my son is crying, and I nurse him and that's not what he wants, he just won't nurse.
I'm just curious where you're coming up with this theory.

Coming in late, and I haven't read all pp's.
My ds (now 18 mos) would most certainly accept nursing, and stop crying, no matter what the REASON that he was crying. It took me a while to figure out that sometimes when he cried (when he was very young) it was because he was overstimulated. What he NEEDED was to go to a quiet room. But, back then, I though the goal was to just get a baby to stop crying, and nursing made him stop. But it wasn't what he needed, or wanted, at all.
Essentially, it just gave him a way to deal with a less than desireable situation, instead of helping him get into a more desireable one.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

And, imo, nursing should not be "withheld"- I see NOTHING wrong with comfort nursing. If my ds shows ANY indication that he wants to nurse- crying or not, happy or unhappy- I do so. (If I'm busy, and he's agreeable to waiting, we wait a minute.)
BUT, if he cries, and shows no indication that he WANTS to nurse, I don't *make* him stop crying by nursing him (which would stop most crying, regardless of the reason). If he's crying, I try to address the reason.
He currently cries when he feels that I haven't acknowledged his feelings/thoughts/desires. If I were to nurse him, he'd stop crying quickly. But its not addressing the reason at all. The right thing to do, imo, is to acknowledge him, even if it takes a bit longer for him to stop crying. My goal isn't to stop the crying asap. Its to deal with the reason- to do what he wants- if I am able to do so.
If I can't really address the reason, say if he bumps his head and it hurts (not a major hurt, obviously), I don't nurse him, unless he wants to nurse (and trust me, he lets me know). I know he likes to be walked around (he wants to), so I walk with him, and talk quietly to him. He's generally good to go in less than a minute. If someone tries to distract him from crying, it takes much longer, and the cries go from "that hurts!" to can't-hardly-breath-I'm-so-upset. Don't know exactly why, but that's what happens.
If, at any point, he shows any indication that he wants something (a toy, to flip a light switch, to nurse, to read a book, anything) we do it. But I'm not going to say "oh, here play with this, flip the switch, nurse, let's read. Anything- just stop crying" to try to distract him from crying. It introduces too much frenzy into an already unhappy situation. Its not respectful. He deserves to have a calm situation, to calm down in. And he deserves to have his desires respected. If that's nursing, fine. But if its not, that's fine too.


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## nicholas_mom (Apr 23, 2004)

Quote:

First, check to see if I could identify the cause: Hungry? Tired? Hot? Cold? Wet? Gassy? In pain? Any underlying medical causes (reflux, thrush, etc.)? If the answer was no, then I felt really frustrated. What was wrong with her? Why was she crying? What was I doing wrong? Each additional moment of crying felt like an indictment of my parenting abilities (or lack thereof). DH and I went to herculean lengths to try to stop her -- hours of walking, bouncing, shushing, swaying, trying to get her to nurse, and finally I would cry, and then scream in frustration, "DO SOMETHING. WHY IS THIS HAPPENING? MAKE HER STOP." Collapse on the floor in tears, dh trying to soothe screaming baby and sobbing wife simultaneously.








I did the EXACT samething! It was just awful. When all else failed attempts, espesially NOt WANTING to nurse, its hopeless. The problem with ds was he would cry and then throw up, which made it even worse







. My homeopathic doctor gave prescribed some homeopathic remedy that was for colicky or teething problems. I could never tell if it was teething or emotional crying. So, if my attempts failed I let him cry in my arms for 3-5 mins then I would give the homeopathic remedy to help him.

I figure if it was emotional stuff, he had another time to release them, hence the 2 yr old tantrums.


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## M&Mmommy (Jan 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaBug*
I think that so many are getting confused because the word infant was used in the opening post.

Most of the information I have used to come to the conclusion that what I said in the OP was true for children and babies as well came from Mothering Magazine. I am gobsmacked that no one has commented yet on how surprised they were when they found out it's not just me who thought this up.

Mothering.com Article
http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...ion-side1.html
Peggy O'Mara says the following (and see quotes from others like Dr. Sears and T. Berry Brazelton in Mothering Articles as well below):
"Peggy O'Mara: "Sometimes babies and children, like adults, need a good cry. . . . Ignoring your child's cries is never a good idea. But sometimes it can be reassuring to your child to be allowed to cry in the safety of your loving arms. . . . Try holding your baby during these episodes of release crying. You may find that the crying subsides, or you may conclude that your baby needs to cry to release stress. Either way, you are offering your baby the comfort of your touch."
-Natural Family Living. Pocket Books, 2000.."

Mothering Magazine
Issue 122 January/February 2004
http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...onnection.html
"Another advantage of this approach is that toddlers who have cried enough as infants (while being held), and who continue to be supported emotionally as they grow older, are calm and gentle. They do not hit or bite other children."

and

"However, if there is no medical reason for the crying, it is likely that your baby simply needs to release stress."

Mothering Magazine
Issue 115 - November/December 2002
http://www.mothering.com/articles/gr.../tantrums.html
"My niece had been having similar "sessions" related to being in tight places since she was six months old. Her father and mother learned to hold her close and support her during these times, guessing that she had become terrified during her birth; she'd been lodged in the birth canal for three hours before her mother could push her through. Her parents' listening helped her work through the leftover fears she carried from that experience. For a couple of years, she signaled for a long screaming, struggling session almost daily. She began life as a wary, coolly watchful baby. By the time she was three, she had become relaxed and cuddly--a total transformation of personality that our whole family witnessed with wonder. She's now a teen, an athlete, a scholar, and a fearless young woman."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaBug*
I guess most ppl feel that an infant has only one way to communicate, crying and that we as mothers must find out the cause to the best of our abilities.... <snip>....I feel that I need to find out why my child is/was crying and make it better. If I can't then I will continue to be there for my child.

Like with almost every other post in this thread, I agree. I suggest that crying for emotional release is one of the causes to add to the checklist of reasons for crying. Releasing intense emotion makes it better, so making a safe and attentive space for that crying is helping.

Additionally, listening with warmth and caring attention without trying to fix an older child's tears is a very good practice. Do you disagree? I'm curious where the lines are drawn with some of you when it comes to this thread's message.

In peace,
M&Mmommy


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

The line to me is that if nursing STOPS the crying (or shushing or holding or patting or whatever) then THAT is what the baby needs. As long as the nursing is STOPPING the crying then it should be done.

-Angela


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## M&Mmommy (Jan 25, 2003)

Alegna,

OK, I'm hearing you. Thanks for responding, too.

Sounds like you believe that stopping a baby from crying is extremely important, and you'll do whatever you can think of to help your baby stop crying. What do you think about an older child's tears or tantrums? Do you think any loving measure should be taken to stop his or her crying?

Yours,
ymmomM&M









p.s. this is *not* a set-up question where you reply and I try to pick apart your answer. I'm sincerely asking your thoughts.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna*
The line to me is that if nursing STOPS the crying (or shushing or holding or patting or whatever) then THAT is what the baby needs. As long as the nursing is STOPPING the crying then it should be done.

-Angela











If a baby/toddler does not NEED the breast, or white noise, or CST, or homeopathics, or holding, or whatever, they will still let you know via crying. And then I could see the crying-in-arms argument, because honestly, what else can you possibly do? But if nursing, rocking, shushing calms them and helps them to center, then good job, mama!

FWIW, because my firstborn had colic after an incredibly traumatic, stressful birth, I really used to believe colic had to do with this. But the second had it too after the happy hippie waterbirth! So, some kids just need a little more - but I never would have stopped offering things until we found what worked for him. What he needed, in other words.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *M&Mmommy*
Alegna,
Sounds like you believe that stopping a baby from crying is extremely important, and you'll do whatever you can think of to help your baby stop crying.

I'm not Alegna... but really, babies are crying because something is *wrong*. I don't think the focus is so much on stopping the crying, but on helping the child feel better, and helping fix what is wrong. When babies are happy and no longer is distress, they don't cry. If nursing does that, great. If a quiet room works, fabulous. If simply being held and crying works, that's fine too... but I do think that needing to cry to resolve underlying trauma is pretty far down on the list of reasons why babies cry.

Quote:

What do you think about an older child's tears or tantrums? Do you think any loving measure should be taken to stop his or her crying?
I've always tried to use loving measures to help comfort an older child who was crying, just as I would with an infant. Again, I don't think stopping the crying was ever the issue - the issue is whether or not to comfort, through any means that is effective.

Dar


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## M&Mmommy (Jan 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama*
FWIW, because my firstborn had colic after an incredibly traumatic, stressful birth, I really used to believe colic had to do with this. But the second had it too after the happy hippie waterbirth! So, some kids just need a little more - but I never would have stopped offering things until we found what worked for him. What he needed, in other words.

FSM, I get the impression from your post that you object to the idea of stopping before finding the cause and offering something to alleviate the resulting pain. Is that correct? I ask because I felt I had learned the cause, when for example, my 1st born twin DD threw tantrum after tantrum about wanting to be "the leader" wherever anyone walked with her. I discovered via many occasions of holding her and hearing her tears (without trying to stop her crying) during the tantrums that she was wildly angry and upset about being left in the IICN (one step down from NICU) while her sister went home for the first 15 days of her life. She has told me she is afraid she'll be left behind, and she's been working on letting this anger out for going on four years. I was relieved to find out what was making her so furious, so I could help alleviate the pain. I have listened to her cry in my arms many times and told her she'll never be left alone again. I have apologized and cried with her because I left her there at all and didn't bring her home with me or camp out there.

Can you see how I would think of this as not stopping until I found out the cause of her anguish?

Warmly,
M&Mmommy


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## M&Mmommy (Jan 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boongirl*
I still do not understand why some feel it is ok to let a child cry?

Boongirl, what do you think about T. Berry Brazelton, Dr. Sears, Peggy O'mara, and others explanations for why they feel it is okay to hold a child and lovingly be with her while she cries?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Boongirl*
I still think that just letting a child cry and not doing anything at all to help it stop, is not an appropriately gentle and responsive approach.

I hope this doesn't sound defensive, but I have never stood by doing nothing at all while either of my DDs cried. Not in any way at all.

With respect,
M&Mmommy


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## M&Mmommy (Jan 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
Again, I don't think stopping the crying was ever the issue - the issue is whether or not to comfort, through any means that is effective.

I feel like I completely agree with what you said here. One difference, I guess, is that if my DC only finds comfort,(and I've gone thru the checklist of other possible causes) after offloading a big enormous cry, I feel the means (crying while supported emotionally, in this case) was effective. KWIM?

Seeking to understand,
M&Mmommy


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *M&Mmommy*
Alegna,

OK, I'm hearing you. Thanks for responding, too.

Sounds like you believe that stopping a baby from crying is extremely important, and you'll do whatever you can think of to help your baby stop crying. What do you think about an older child's tears or tantrums? Do you think any loving measure should be taken to stop his or her crying?

Yours,
ymmomM&M









p.s. this is *not* a set-up question where you reply and I try to pick apart your answer. I'm sincerely asking your thoughts.

Stopping a baby from crying IS important in that the crying tells us SOMETHING is wrong. If we can help, we should. Older children cry for lots of reasons, but in most cases can express their feelings in some form or fashion beyond crying. I'm a BIG fan of talking- unfortunately babies don't have that down yet









FWIW my dd is 18 months now. When she has a serious fall or bump or scrape, I DO offer to nurse. Sometimes she will, and it makes her feel better. Sometimes she won't, and that's fine. But I wouldn't NOT offer just because I know she's crying because she's hurt not because she's hungry. Does that make sense? We should offer to comfort babies and children in appropriate ways. Nursing and hugs- good. Here's a cookie, be quiet- not so good. I don't have an issue with the fact that SOME babies SOME times cry and need to just let it out. I do have a problem with witholding something that SEEMS to comfort them (ie, stop the crying) because you're making the intellectual leap that they must need to just cry. Crying in arms SOMEtimes is the best thing (when all other things have been checked) But it should not be assumed that ALL babies need to do it.

-Angela


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## M&Mmommy (Jan 25, 2003)

For another pov, here's another quote from the Sears' (also cited on Mothering.com).

"William and Martha Sears: "Research has shown that crying is a healthy part of the recovery process-a physiologic aid to releasing stored stress. . . . Lucky is the child who feels the freedom to cry without rebuke. Wise is the parent who gives a supportive presence. There is a big difference between allowing your baby to cry (without panic on your part!) and leaving her to cry alone and uncomforted."
-The Baby Book, 2nd ed. Little, Brown and Company, 2003."

I have to say I respect all the mothers who have posted here. I get the impression that lots of thought and insight has gone into this subject. And many of you have pointed out the big difference between stopping a child from expressing tears and sadness simply because their crying makes us uncomfortable, versus the nurturing desire to help the person (young or old) feel better. I feel that nurturing desire too, and in that, I don't feel very different from you at all.

With kindness,
M&Mmommy


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

This is one of those topics where people seem to either

~Feel perplexed, confused, or even upset, and don't find the discussion persuasive enough to change that feeling

~Or they go "Aha, yes, EXACTLY!" because they totally and completely get what the OP is describing, based on their own real life experiences.

I am in the second category. I totally understand EXACTLY what the OP means when she says there is another type of crying that a baby can express.

My son had a terribly traumatic babyhood. He needed several life saving surgeries in a short period of time.

I knew in my heart of mothering hearts that sometimes he cried over painful memories. What this looks like or how it sounds can't be described in a way that persuades a doubtful person. But it can be described in a way that will make a parent in the same situation go "Oh my gosh, yes, thank you, you get it!!". You just know. I just knew. It was so perfectly clear. His eyes could have been anyone's, and he would give me a look that transcended the physical space. It was a very deep kind of connection, of a shared pain. The way any person might look at you, look away, cringe, break down in tears, then collect themselves and look back at you for a validation over what was revealed, it is just something you intuitively recognize as emotional communication.

You can't learn anything from this topic if you lift it out of the context of what is being described.

Just to point out the hot button topic of nursing~and i am not commenting here on anything other than the OP's words on this~I will point this out.

I don't think the OP means that being comforted by nursing is a problem. I think the point is that something that looks like comfort nursing to the detached observer, but feels like a distracting frantic boob dance that escalates the parents' sense of confusion and helplessness, is the problem. Not all babies will send pefectly clear "yes/no" responses to the offer to nurse. I know my son would almost always suck anything put in his mouth for at least a few seconds, as though trying to identify what it was and then decide if he wanted it. So for those few seconds he was quiet. Then he would spit it out and scream. But then he would seem to root and want it again, and then spit it out and scream. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

Harmful? No, I don't think it was harmful. Comforting? No. Distracting? Yes. And that is the point. The distinction between nursing to comfort and nursing to distraction is just stone cold clear when you have a baby who does it. It is not clear if your baby does not do this. And even when they do it, it takes you as the parent a while to grasp what the heck is going on. Especially when the topic of crying is split so deeply into "CIO vs. AP" camps. If he had settled into a nice, long, quiet, cozy nursing-to-sleep-session, then great. But he didn't. And he didn't hold up his hand and say "Please mother, no distractions now, I would like to vent" either. I had to figure out what his mixed signals were telling me. And then, I needed some kind of validation that my intuition was guiding me down a path that others had travelled.

And that is who threads like this really help. The sensitive, responsive, attentive parent who is learning about their expressive baby, and not finding answers in the black and white threads on crying. I don't care if ten pages of people cast doubtful glances on this topic. Just every so often someone is going to read this and go "Wow, yes, THANK YOU!" and walk away a more confident, capable parent.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *M&Mmommy*
One difference, I guess, is that if my DC only finds comfort,(and I've gone thru the checklist of other possible causes) after offloading a big enormous cry, I feel the means (crying while supported emotionally, in this case) was effective. KWIM?

Well... I do think that sometimes people end up with a lot of pent-up frustration and stress, and crying can be a way to release that. So, right now I'm worried about my father's upcoming open-heart surgery, and I've been working a lot, and not sleeping enough, and the dog had diarrhea on the carpet, and I just got my period, and really, one more stressful even could easily send me over the edge and I would just start sobbing. And if that happened, it would be great if someone just sat next to me and rubbed my shoulders and held me while I cried. If anyone would like to volunteer, come on over...

OTOH, if a baby's needs are being met, I'm not seeing how he will end up with this kind of emotional build-up. I know that sometimes when a baby is uncomfortable and the parent can't or doesn't figure out why and help relieve the discomfort, the baby can escalate into just crying to relieve tension and frustration, and sometimes even if you do figure out what the problem was, resolving it won't immediately cause the crying to stop. I still think one should continue looking for the underlying problem, though.

And I do not believe that a one week-old baby can understand at any level that a twin is going home with mom and she is being left behind. The cenceptual framework, the language abilities, the cognitive abilities... they're just not there yet. I think that giving a child these kinds of reasons as validation for her feelings is harmful because it disregards what is really going on in her life in the present, and in the memorable past. MHO. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...

dar


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## M&Mmommy (Jan 25, 2003)

Heartmama,







, you have made my day! Your words are so moving, and your descriptions of what my words were trying to convey are right on.

And, know that my heart goes out to you regarding your & your DS's experiences. I know *exactly* what you mean here:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heartmama*
"It was a very deep kind of connection, of a shared pain. The way any person might look at you, look away, cringe, break down in tears, then collect themselves and look back at you for a validation over what was revealed, it is just something you intuitively recognize as emotional communication."

Your words break my heart and encourage me. Bless you and your family and everyone everywhere connections are forged in this heartful way.

Yours in spirit,
M&Mmommy


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
~Feel perplexed, confused, or even upset, and don't find the discussion persuasive enough to change that feeling

I know it's even harder for ppl who were raised in a way that never allowed them to cry.
Myself, I was a 'wild child' and it took a long time for my parents to "get it", and once they did, I completely changed from an angry, rageful child, into a human being who could think, feel, and utilyze my intelligence.
After they would hold me and let me cry and rage and listen to me and validate my feelings and fears, I no longer threw tantrums, but was able to think about what exactly was causing my feelings of distress and figure out how to solve the problem.
Many times it was beyond my power, so my mom or dad would hold me and let me cry.

When I had my first child, I did the same thing, and I find when I look back, we have not had the tantrums, the power struggles, etc. that many parents worry about.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
I'm not Alegna... but really, babies are crying because something is *wrong*. I don't think the focus is so much on stopping the crying, but on *helping the child feel better, and helping fix what is wrong*. When babies are happy and no longer is distress, they don't cry. If nursing does that, great. If a quiet room works, fabulous. If simply being held and crying works, that's fine too... but I do think that needing to cry to resolve underlying trauma is pretty far down on the list of reasons why babies cry.

I've always tried to use loving measures to help comfort an older child who was crying, just as I would with an infant. Again, I don't think stopping the crying was ever the issue - the issue is whether or not to comfort, through any means that is effective.

Dar

See, I just don't see that nursing EVERY time a child cries IS helping fix what is wrong. As a matter of fact, I think sometimes it can mask what is wrong.
As I said before, my ds will likely stop crying if I nurse him, whether he wanted to nurse or not, whether it addresses the real reason for crying or not. But that "reason" for the initial crying is still there, and it manifests itself in other ways. Like being fussy/cranky all day, for example. That's not fun for me, and it can't feel good to him. Its still there because *I* focused on the short term- getting the crying to stop (believing that stopping crying = comforting, and a happier baby).
When I focus on the long term, my goal is to "get to the bottom of it," to address the reason. That results in a truly happier child, even if *gasp* he cries for a whole minute without me uncovering my breast. (I'll say again, if he indicates, in any way, that he wants to nurse, I will nurse him immediately. If he's scared, he usually wants to nurse, and has no hesitation in telling me so.)
What's wrong with trusting that ds, at 18 mos, knows if he wants to nurse or not? Why shouldn't I trust that if he doesn't want to nurse, there is something else that *I* need to offer for comfort. Even if he doesn't know exactly what it is that he needs, by nursing to stop the crying, I'm making it less likely that we'll find exactly what he needs.
gg, ds wants to play now


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

OTOH, if a baby's needs are being met, I'm not seeing how he will end up with this kind of emotional build-up.
I tried to address this in my post. I would say gently that you have the luxury of thinking this way. Some of the things my son went through as a baby, were so terrible, that just watching them gave *me* post traumatic stress issues. I have studied various therapies that deal with PTS, and I would say that everything in them validates the existence of emotional release crying. There is no scientific study that I have found which proves that infants are incapable of advanced emotional trauma. I have seen no studies which disprove the complexity of the infant brain, and none that justify a simplified or formulatic "if/then" view of emotional trauma in infants.

As I said, the point of this thread won't be to persuade disbelievers, although that would be great. It will give the parents who need it a way to feel helpful and useful to their baby, often for the first time. The feeling of helplessness with this kind of crying can't be overstated. Parents can become so confused and exhausted, they become convinced of their own ineptness, give up, and leave the baby to CIO. The crying is something to be 'endured' and there can come a point where the parent, viewing it this way, finds it unbearable. And even if you don't leave them to CIO, there can be little sense of purpose for the parent as they sit and hold the screaming baby for days and weeks on end~their every thought on what else might be done to comfort and quiet the baby, and their attempts to comfort 'failing' as the baby persists in crying. That prolonged sense of futileness can be very damaging to the parent/ baby bond, even after the crying stops.

What a difference it can make when the parent see's the crying as a positive release, and their presence as supportive and loving! It is like turning on a light. But to do that you have to accept that the crying is good and okay, and accept that just being there is enough, and that is hard to do~especially, as we see in this thread, when people would view 6 hours of crying broken by brief, mostly ineffective attempts to nurse, rock, or sing, as a better choice~ Even when the parent says the quality of their bond dramatically improves, they feel in tune with baby for the first time, and the crying sessions are much shorter, the baby happier, and the bond greater when there are no more attempts at distraction.


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

Quote:

OTOH, if a baby's needs are being met, I'm not seeing how he will end up with this kind of emotional build-up.
I have to admit I am a bit more than slightly offended by the implied not-so-subtle insulting nature of this post. Blessings to you and yours for not having experienced what we, and many mothers who have been so courageous to share their stories here, have.

As Heartmama and other mothers have so eloquently described, it might be that unless you've experienced this for yourself firsthand, this concept may be very difficult to grasp. I am one of those mamas who had an "AHA, thank you so much for sharing this!" moment when reading through these heartbreaking stories of babies experiencing trauma and their subsequent need to process and express their emotions surrounding these events.

It is through our traumatic birth experience and gently, lovingly and intuitively mothering my now 3 month old that I've come to truly understand the astonishingly rich and complex emotional life of an infant. It is through this that I've come to realize that in this culture, babies are often regarded as sub-human, that because they have yet to develop the ability to communicate their full range of thoughts and feelings, that their experiences and emotions can be easily dismissed. And to answer all of the previous questions about how one can differentiate between a cry to fulfill a "need" vs. a cry for emotional healing and release...I know the difference because of my deep connection to my child, my intuition and mama's heart tells me so. I acknowledge that this answer might not be 'good enough' for many, as it certainly isn't 'scientific' or provable. But empirical data be damned I trust above everything else my mother's instinct.

It is my humble opinion that once one has personally experienced this, it would be absolutely impossible to make any correlation between gently, lovingly and with crystal-clear intention supporting our babies through difficult experiences and to help them to heal and release, and Crying-it-Out. I think that there is nothing more in keeping with AP principles than coming to the realization that our babies might have a need to communicate their fears, anger, frustration, and pain through crying and with loving guidance, help them to do so in order to release, heal and move on.

And Heartmama...your writing is brilliant, thank you so much for sharing your story with us and hugs to you and your sweet DS.

Quote:

And that is who threads like this really help. The sensitive, responsive, attentive parent who is learning about their expressive baby, and not finding answers in the black and white threads on crying. I don't care if ten pages of people cast doubtful glances on this topic. Just every so often someone is going to read this and go "Wow, yes, THANK YOU!" and walk away a more confident, capable parent.
I am one of those someones...so "wow, yes, THANK YOU!" to you and all of the other mothers who have shared their stories here.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Thanks.

Kidspiration your post brings up another angle to this topic.

The medical field still treats the infant as though they are sub human, and their emotional awareness limited. Withholding of pain relief, surgery without sedation, ignoring cries, these are just some of the things which hospitalized babies endure because of a social perception of them as 'less than' human.

There is no scientific evidence that I have found to support the idea that the emotional life of a baby is less complicated than an adults.

What I have observed in hospitals is this: the moment a child can speak clearly, they are magically elevated in status to a 'real patient'.

If your 2 year old isn't speaking, their cries will be dismissed, no matter how strong. A baby who screams all night but was medically stable, will be described to the parent later as having "had a good night". But if a small child can say clearly "I am very scared right now. I can't sleep unless my mom is here", the nurse will gladly give a kind answer, and typically note the communication and inform the parent of what was said. Possibly, if the parent requested it, the nurse will call them and let them know the child can't sleep unless they come back.

In this thread, the worst a baby will experience from a simplified view of their emotions will be a bit more rocking, singing, or nursing than was wanted.

In the larger context of society, the consequences of simplifying infant emotions are much more painful and dangerous. When we think about the ways that this view can cause an infant real harm, the significance of this topic is much greater.


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

I remember reading this old thread when it was new and just not really getting it.

I think that in the attempt to not have our daughter cry because of having reformed from a CIO background...I might have missed the boat about crying to release stress. She had a truck load of birth trauma and I think at almost age seven it still could be having an effect. We were separated when I was transported to the hospital after our homebirth, also there was birth trauma with a short cord, and placental shredding prior to her birth and she was born with blood in her mouth. Then I hemmorraged and later came close to death during a uterine infection at three weeks postpartum, then we were in a car wreck when she was 5 weeks old, and then I had ppd. Just a tad bit of birth trauma.

The stress could have been reinforced when she was left behind in a car for 20 min and we found her hysterical and trapped unable to get out of the car as a toddler. Years later got diagnosed with illness within months after when I had left her with a her older siblings and grandmother quite a few times over about two months to go do a series of petsitting jobs with my older daughter. Maybe being left behind triggered extra stress. That's one mondo case of separation anxiety.

I think lately especially since she has been sick, I have gone out of my way to distract or even reward her after painful doctor visits to keep her from crying or getting upset at all costs. I didn't want her eyes to get all red, because she has an eye disease and that couldn't be good. Plus she has arthritis and everyone knows stress makes it worse, so I'd been working overtime to keep all stress away from her. And then I wonder why she has this problem with stifling her emotions and keeping them all inside. Gee, maybe she needs a big tantrum....







the release of the seven year tantrum...that's not going to be pretty.

I'm doing a search on cranial sacral for her and birth trauma therapy because her accupunturist suspects birth trauma could be causing her chi not to move, did a search and this thread came up and I saw it in a whole new light.

In light of this....a very enlightening and worth bumping thread!


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

oops double post


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## Kay11 (Aug 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *M&Mmommy* 
Dear Mothers,

Third, please understand that I am talking about using *any* method to stop a child or baby from crying - not just nursing for comfort - I'm talking about all the things we have been taught to do to stop the upset. Shushing, bouncing, tickling, distracting, using a pacifier and sometimes even nursing. I think stopping a release of tears via any of the methods above, for the sake of stopping the tears, in a misguided attempt to stop the pain, is short-circuiting the release and healing of the pain.

Finally, let me point everyone to some authors who are better at expressing what I am trying to say. I did a search on Mothering.com and found the following articles in support of listening to babies and children when they are upset and crying rather than distracting them or trying to stop their tears.

http://www.mothering.com/articles/gr.../tantrums.html

http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...onnection.html

http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...ion-side1.html

http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...ion-side2.html

In warm and supportive spirit,
M&Mmommy

Sorry, I've not read through all the replies, but this particular post stood out because it sounds to me like am almost word for word representation of Aletha Solter's approach in Aware Parenting. I've listening to her speak on a couple of occasions and this is the one thing that my gut revolts against every time. I fully understand the theory behind her argument, but it doesn't sit well with me at all.

Yes, there are times that my children just need to be held without shushing or rocking or nursing and be allowed to cry until they've healed, just as I wish I could do that a lot of the time, but I know that there are times they need the extra comfort that nursing or rocking or singing or shushing provides. I'm not trying to stop the tears - I'm trying to help them find comfort and security.

If there's one thing my very spirited DD has taught me it's this: you cannot make a child nurse for comfort when what they need is to be held still or left alone with you sitting nearby. So the times I offer the breast for comfort and she takes it makes me trust that at those times I'm not short-circuiting anything, I'm meeting her needs in the way that works best for her.

And fwiw, she's almost 2 and I still can't tell the difference between her hungry, sad, lonely, scared, discomfort or on overload wail. It all sounds the same to me and always has done. Not for lack of trying on my part or hers either, but she's one of those zero to full on loud wailing in 3 seconds kind of kids. Everything for her is enormous and full on whether it's a speck of dirt on her finger, or she's fallen down and cut her knee, or another child has accidentally brushed her arm when they walk past, or she's had to wait 10 extra seconds for her dinner to be put on the table. I need to actively offer her comfort because until I've done that I don't know if a particular situation warrants leaving her to cry with me sitting next to her or holding her.

I thought that holding and slinging and nursing on demand would bring me babies who don't cry. It seemed to the first time, but the second time I was in for a shock. Dd was and is a crier. I would still never try CIO or anything similar, but it does really bug me when she's been crying for what seems like hours and nothing is comforting her. I don't think I'm frustrated because I've been conditioned to stop a crying baby from making a noise, but because there's an innate desire in me to make sure that my baby is safe and that crying alerts me to the fact that in some way she's not.


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

Quote:

I'm not trying to stop the tears - I'm trying to help them find comfort and security.
Kay, I think what you are talking about is attempting to nurse and comfort I think, but if they won't accept just to be with them and comfort them through their big emotions.

This is different from the things we do.

I remember dd being brought to me to nurse when I was very sick, and she wouldn't nurse. My mom and dh would pacify her with a pacifier, or walk with her and bounce her and she would cry and cry. They would shush, and in our house we are expert distracters. Distracting is one of our big parenting tools actually. Even if I attempted to let dd have a tantrum or cry, someone else in the family would come up and distract her. I know, because yesterday I have just been watching how things operate around here to see if the problem is that we do not allow dd the space to express her emotions. And holy heck...I was trying to let her cry and be with her and both Grandma and my 18 year old son both destracted her....very eye opening.

Way back when, while I was sick with ppd, they would leave her with me and she would just lay by me and cry, refuse to nurse, but she had been changed, etc. Dh would say "are you just going to let her cry?" or "come on, get up and do something about it", walk, bounce, pacify, shush...do anything to stop the crying. The attitude was that anything short of not doing all kinds of acrobatics to get the kid quieted down was being neglectful and not taking care of her needs. A need to cry wasn't acknowledged. It was believed that if your child was still crying after being, fed, burped, and changed, you as a parent had not found the solution and needed to keep trying until you found it. To sit with the crying baby would be considered..quitting or giving up or a pathetic excuse of a whimpy lazy parent. One must walk the floor all night, pacing and doing the cradle hold, bouncing and shushing to be doing the proper care of baby.

So the concepts in this thread are a big shift from the "do not let them cry at all costs" camp. Which, actually is how I was raised. The condition of my Mom living where she lived with my Grandma as a single mom was that she was not to hear me cry ever. I can see that this is on the opposite extreme of cry it out and could cause stifled emotions. I don't think I have stifled emotions because I let it all out, anyone whose read my posts I think knows that I'm outspoken. A couple of my children though, they are the types that keep it all their emotions in. In my zeal to not have them cry ever...I guess it explains why I have older kids with lots of big emotions that they need to get out.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Snooter* 
I just take issue with saying that offering a breast to your crying baby is stifiling them. If it is what the baby wants, it's what they want and as evidenced by your DC (pp) if they don't want it, they won't take it.

That's my opinion too.


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## Lady Lilya (Jan 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar* 
I'm not Alegna... but really, babies are crying because something is *wrong*. I don't think the focus is so much on stopping the crying, but on helping the child feel better, and helping fix what is wrong. When babies are happy and no longer is distress, they don't cry. If nursing does that, great. If a quiet room works, fabulous. If simply being held and crying works, that's fine too... but I do think that needing to cry to resolve underlying trauma is pretty far down on the list of reasons why babies cry.

When *I* am no longer in distress, *I* still cry for a while after to relieve the stress.

For example, if I have a fight with my husband and I cry....after the fight is over and everything is resolved and perfect and there is nothing negative remaining between us, I will still feel a need to cry. At first he didn't understand this, and thought something was still wrong. And I didn't really know why I still felt like crying, either. But, I figured out that I just need it to shed the stress and intensity of the experience. Now he just lets me keep crying. Before, we would both try to stop me from crying. Often after an emotional experience like that, we would feel very close and loving and have a very tender love-making experience...and then after I would go take a bath, and still find myself feeling like I need a cry, even after all of those endorphins added to my system that should comfort me.

I know nursing causes opiate-like effects in the baby's brain, which may stop the crying the way endorphins do, but I don't know if it really relieves the stress, or just makes the baby better able to deal with the stress.

Does the baby still feel, after nursing, like he WISHES he could cry and get it out of him? I don't know. So, I intend to keep an open mind about this issue for a while. No conclusion yet.

Quote:

FWIW my dd is 18 months now. When she has a serious fall or bump or scrape, I DO offer to nurse. Sometimes she will, and it makes her feel better. Sometimes she won't, and that's fine. But I wouldn't NOT offer just because I know she's crying because she's hurt not because she's hungry. Does that make sense? We should offer to comfort babies and children in appropriate ways. Nursing and hugs- good. Here's a cookie, be quiet- not so good. I don't have an issue with the fact that SOME babies SOME times cry and need to just let it out. I do have a problem with witholding something that SEEMS to comfort them (ie, stop the crying) because you're making the intellectual leap that they must need to just cry. Crying in arms SOMEtimes is the best thing (when all other things have been checked) But it should not be assumed that ALL babies need to do it.

-Angela
If your DD has a physical injury causing her pain that is making her cry, I agree that nursing is an appropriate thing to do, because the opiate-like substances in the milk will act as a pain reliever. It is a much better pain reliever than a spray to numb the injury, or an oral pain reliever.

But emotional pain seems like it should have different responses.

I understand that those of you who are posting against EVER letting the baby cry are mostly coming from a place where your concern is how it is possible to determine that the baby is crying from a need to relieve emotional stress. I can understand that it is probably not easy. I have not been there yet, so I don't know. I plan to approach this issue with all the awareness I can muster and see if I can figure out for sure if my baby is needing a de-stress cry. If I can't be sure, then I think I will probably not feel comfortable if I don't try nursing.

Quote:

"William and Martha Sears: "Research has shown that crying is a healthy part of the recovery process-a physiologic aid to releasing stored stress. . . . *Lucky is the child who feels the freedom to cry without rebuke.* Wise is the parent who gives a supportive presence. There is a big difference between allowing your baby to cry (without panic on your part!) and leaving her to cry alone and uncomforted."
-The Baby Book, 2nd ed. Little, Brown and Company, 2003."
When I was a child, I didn't feel the freedom to cry to relieve the trauma of a physical injury. My father had no patience for it, and would lose his temper. For some reason, he didn't have the same reaction to crying over emotional trauma. I have no clue why. I should probably ask him some questions and try to figure it out.

I remember clearly as a child, when a beloved pet would die, he would hold me and let me just cry. Usually after about 15-30 minutes of this, I felt so relieved and refreshed and at peace. In my adult life, when I lost a pet I loved, I felt like I had to take measures to stop myself from crying. More than a year since my cat Enki died, I still don't feel as released from that stress as I used to feel after just half an hour of crying.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *M&Mmommy* 
The subject has come up again about whether holding a baby and listening to her tears and crying while offering her warmth and attachement is tantamount to CIO. I would like to offer a perspective on why unexamined intolerance of any crying is actually short-circuiting an innate healing function that babies are born with.

As the mom of high need children, I love it. I often feel uncomfortable when posters say stuff like you should not "let" your baby cry. I have never found crying to be something I have any choice over. I comfort my children appropriately, but sometimes I just have to allow them to express themselves. If I need to put the baby down for a few minutes to collect myself, I don't feel that I'm a neglecting my child or "letting her cry it out". Or that I am somehow less of a nuturing mom cause I can't take the heat. I also don't think there is anything wrong with experimenting now and then to see if the child can self soothe - sometimes putting my kids down has been what has stopped the crying! Honestly, when I read the kind of advice that you should never ever not even for 5 minutes "let" a baby cry, I just have to wonder that perhaps the poster has not had much experience with a variety of babies. I'm the first to say do what you can to help babies feel the best they can, but IMHO it is very unrealistic to feel that you can always find and treat the source of every baby's tears. And I do think that underlying the resistance to accepting that babies sometimes need to cry like everyone else is indeed intolerance. I discovered within myself that underlying intolerance to crying was fear - fear of loosing control over the peace and security I had built in my life. Having a child is a huge leap of faith - I'm allowing into my life and promising to love, cherish, and care for a person I do not know, who may do things I do not like, who may not be inclined to cooperate with me, who hopefully will learn to love me back, but who is under no obligation to do so. Pretty scary.

Underlying the issue for me is also the fact that I did not feel safe crying in front of my parents growing up - which has evolved in not feeling comfortble crying in front of anybody - not even in transition in labor! When you are told for day 1 "don't cry", it sticks.


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## Shanana (May 11, 2005)

This concept was also discussed at length a while back here.

I don't think anyone is advocating refusing to nurse a baby who _wants_ to nurse. The point is to bring to light the idea that sometimes babies cry to release trauma or stress, and if you're not aware of this idea, you may unwittingly do things to stifle that release (such as trying to get them to nurse when they _don't_ want to, or a variety of other things).

In my situation (as I discussed earlier in this thread, and in the one I linked to above), my dd was deep suctioned at birth which caused an oral aversion. The trauma was triggered when she nursed, so she would cry because she was hungry, and then cry when I tried to get her to nurse. I didn't understand what was going on (i.e., that she suffered trauma from the deep suctioning); I just knew my baby was hungry, yet when I tried to nurse her she cried even more and refused. But I just kept trying and trying and trying to get her to nurse. For hours. Every night. For months.

Reading about the concept discussed in this thread (which I first read about in Solter's article for Mothering) got me to step back and look at our situation from a different perspective. It made me realize that I was trying to force my breast on a baby who didn't want it (again, made tricky by the fact that she actually _was_ hungry, but the trauma made her not want to nurse). I finally understood that babies _can_ cry for more reasons than just the "physical" (e.g., wet, hungry, gassy, etc.). I had instinctively suspected the trauma from the beginning, but my "rational" mind kept dismissing it. So I had been obsessed with trying to "fix" the problem ... thinking it could be fixed by walking, bouncing, shushing, nursing, etc. _But it couldn't_. What my dd needed was for me to shift my approach to one that created a safe space for her to release that trauma, instead of constantly trying to _silence her_.

_This did not mean withholding the breast when she wanted to nurse_. It also did not mean I gave up and stopped trying to help her. But I had to change my methods. For me, that meant recognizing and honoring her fear and terror; understanding that she may be hungry, but she was also afraid to nurse. It meant when I had tried everything I could think of to comfort her and she was still crying, that I held her lovingly in my arms, made my breast available _if she should want it_, and was just there for her.

When I did these things, her crying would change, often becoming almost unbearably intense. I think it's because she knew I was open to her, and was there to hear her; so she really let go. Even though it felt like an eternity, I think it usually lasted 5 or 10 minutes, maybe as long as 15 or 20 on occasion; usually with an ebbing and flowing to the crying. She would start to settle down, and then cry hard for a while, then calm a bit, then cry again, etc. Eventually it would taper off and she would finally nurse and let me comfort her. By allowing her to release her emotions in this manner, she was then able to nurse. When I didn't allow the release, she would suck a few times and start screaming. I would run around and bounce her, sling her, walk grooves into my floor to calm her down, and then try to latch her back on. She would suck a few times and then start screaming. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. For 4, 5, 6 hours at a time. It was the most awful thing I've ever gone through in my life.

Once I finally understood that she had suffered trauma, and she needed to cry to release it, things really changed. We did crying in arms, and also the craniosacral therapy, which was incredibly intense and transformative and just unbelievably healing for her. I think the crying in arms helped, but I believe it was the CST that truly allowed her to let everything go. I can't remember if I posted links earlier in this thread for finding a CS therapist in your area. If I didn't and anyone is interested, let me know.

ETA: My dd is now almost 2, and we still use this method on occasion. And I still sometimes get stuck in my "old" way of thinking. She had an awful sleep regression a few months ago, and was up all night for several nights. I was in and out of her room, obliterated by sleep deprivation, wanting nothing more than for her to stop crying and go to sleep. After a few nights, it suddenly dawned on me that I was not helping her. That instead of trying to get her to shut up and sleep, I needed to just honor where she was at and hear her. I stopped trying to calm her down, took some deep breaths, and mentally envisioned withdrawing into myself and leaving an open space for _her_. Her crying immediately intensified. When I tried to touch her she slapped my hands away, so I just let her sit in my lap. Occasionally I would murmur that I was listening, that I heard her, that I loved her. After about 5 minutes the intensity of her crying lessened, and she started the cycle of calming down, and then crying again. After about another 5 minutes she mostly stopped crying, and was finally accepting of my touching her again. Soon after she nursed, and then fell asleep. I have no idea what was going on with her or what it was that she needed to release. But I didn't need to know. I just needed to be there for her. And it's not a miracle cure ... this was not the end of the sleep regression, but at least it was the end of her being up all night.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

The part about dd crying at 2 reminded me of my dd - sometimes she'll cry in the night, and I'll go to her and say "what's wrong? - what do you need?" And she'll just look at me and say "mama, I'm just whining!"


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:

That instead of trying to get her to shut up and sleep, I needed to just honor where she was at and hear her. I stopped trying to calm her down, took some deep breaths, and mentally envisioned withdrawing into myself and leaving an open space for her. Her crying immediately intensified.
I had a recent interesting experience similar to this.

Sunday at 3:30am, ds1 woke us up with his screaming. He ran down the hall from his room, hysterical. We pulled him into our bed, and tried to comfort him - but he would not calm down - well, he would briefly and the start crying again. DH held him for awhile, and then I did. DH put him back to bed and lay with him and then I did. We would manage to get him to stop crying for a few minutes, and start to fall asleep, and then he'd wake back up again, sobbing.

We kept asking him what was wrong, but nothing he said made sense. We figured he was just scared, tired, etc.

I started getting really frustrated, since I was so tired. But I remembered something I read which is that I need to let him be upset. He had some powerful feelings he had to get out and I needed to let him get them out. I started talking about his powerful feelings, and he calmed down - enough to tell me that his shoulder hurt.

And that is when I turned on the light and checked out his shoulder - and immediately decided to take him to the ER. It turns out, he broke his clavicle falling out of bed.

No wonder he was hysterical!

We were so convinced for the first hour that he was "only" scared or tired, that we focused on getting him to calm down, which only made him more and more upset since there was something seriously wrong and he didn't know how to tell us. It wasn't until I started taking his reactions seriously and letting him be upset, respecting the fact that he was upset and that this was hard for him to deal with that I could actually start to see what was going on with my kid.

I felt like an idiot for trying to talk him out of his pain. I felt like an idiot for dismissing his pain - and for focusing on the symptoms of the problem (the crying) and not the underlying problem. The crying was important - it was the only way he could tell us that he was in trouble. And by respecting his crying, we were able to actually get him the help he needed.

Siobhan


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

I am trying to do some homemade rebirthing exercises with my daughter over the past day. The first time, while I gently massaged her head and shoulders in a birthing motion, she was reaching up frantically reaching like she was trying to get out but was stuck (short cord), she began to make choking sounds and weird gulpy noises that I have never heard her make before. Quickly after she started making the choking sounds, I wanted it to end on a positive note so I helped her be born and get unstuck while tossing socks and shirts that were on the floor at her to simulate being hit by placental material during the birth. Then I said that must have been a very scary experience and I'm sure you would want your mom after that, and this time I'm not going to leave you. The game ended and I sat with her for a few hours.

The second time we played the game, she expressed intense feelings of being trapped and clawing, hitting, kicking, and pulling on the placenta to get out while kicking her feet almost like her cord was wrapped around her legs, she even seemed to flip all around in a frantic and very scary way, and she seemed like she was reliving a terrifying experience. She was very strong, and used all of her strength to be born. All the while up top, I was having a fairly peaceful birth experience, even with all of the complications. I even napped for four hours, during the presentation problem, but she seemed in terror and getting herself untangled. When I woke up the presentation problem had resolved, and labor was like normal, but it was hard work for her to get to that point and really, until now I didn't give this a second thought. And to think that we were joking and having a good time after the birth after she had just gone through that makes me more aware of the need to have a more quiet and unstimulated time of rest for the baby after the birth and how much the baby needs to not be separated from their mother.

Then, she woke in the night last night with a night terror. I initially said, hush, then dh reminded me, don't say hush, and then I got into the mindset to give her that space to cry. Actually dh handled it. I am terrible at middle of the night parenting. I thought, if this continues, I will take a nap during the day or go to sleep a couple hours earlier so I can be ready to deal with the nighttime big emotions.

I would like the list of how to find cranial sacral therapist. I have a few names, but would like to find someone that does cranial and the rebirthing exercises.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
I felt like an idiot for trying to talk him out of his pain. I felt like an idiot for dismissing his pain - and for focusing on the symptoms of the problem (the crying) and not the underlying problem.

I had a similar experience when dd was a baby. I clipped her pacifier to the skin under her arm!!! I didn't know why she was crying and immediately started all the hushing and shushing - and the sad part is that she did get quite and stopped crying. After I discovered it I felt like the biggest horse's butt on the planet! I guess "shush, swaddle, suck, swing" didn't apply to that one! - Better add "see and study baby" and "stop assuming"!


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## Shanana (May 11, 2005)

Wow, Bestbirths, what incredibly powerful work you're doing with your dd. She is lucky to have a mother who is so in tune with her, and willing to help her with this work. I can't remember if I posted a link earlier in this thread, but I wrote in detail about the work I did with my dd (you can read it here). Reading your post reminded me of how I would touch her head and she would just go crazy screaming. I've always felt that it reminded her of them restraining her head while suctioning; although it certainly could have been related to the birth as well (she was acynclitic and posterior, so her head was tipped and it was probably rather painful). I also felt such awful guilt over my obliviousness to her suffering. My labor was so hard for _me_, I didn't even think of what it must have been like for her. And while she was held down on a table, having tubes shoved down her nose and throat, I was patting myself on the back for having a natural childbirth, and just soooooo relieved that the pain was over (my labor lasted 30 hours, and I hadn't slept in about 4 days due to prodromal labor). I was completely out of it, and wasn't thinking at all about her or what she was going through. I was just eager for them to finish so I could hold her. It wrenches my heart now to think back on that, to think of her all alone and scared and hurting, when I should have been holding her in my arms. The suctioning they did isn't even indicated ... there are studies that show it just pushes the meconium further in







. I researched everything I needed to know up to pushing her out, but never thought of what might come after (aside from declining the Hep B vaccine, etc.). I really felt like I failed her.

All of this was really driven home for me when I had a CST appointment where I relived _my_ birthing experience, which was remarkably similar to dd's in many ways. I confirmed my "memories" with my mom later, and I was right about everything. I was also posterior and acynclitic, and spent the entire CST session with my head/neck twisted to the left, probably the way it was during birth. After talking everything through, and "re-doing" my birth the way I wanted it to be, my neck straightened all on its own, and I suddenly had a range of motion I didn't even know was possible. I was carrying the muscle memory of that trauma around with me for 35 years, and didn't even know it.

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I also felt, and sometimes still feel, guilt about how blind I was to what my dd was going through. I have done the best I can to forgive myself. My actions weren't malicious; I simply didn't know any better. But it has definitely radically changed my feelings about birth (which were already radical -- when compared to the mainstream, anyway







), and I also feel it's so incredibly important for babies to not be separated from their mama unless it's life threatening. It wasn't until about two months ago that I finally grieved for that separation for _me_. I've spent so much time and energy helping my dd, I had neglected to work to heal myself. It was a very powerful release, and really snuck up and surprised me. I am glad to have done the work, because we are getting ready to ttc again, and I think I needed to clear that first.

Anyway, there are several training sources for CST, but the Upledger Institute is probably the best known. I've taken CSI through them, and am hoping to continue through the training as time goes by. You can search for a practitioner through their site; towards the bottom in the middle you'll see a link for "Find a Practitioner". Put in your location, and select CST for the modality (I would advise against selecting "CST Certification", since many practitioners don't do this, but are still very qualified). You'll get a list of names, and it will show the training each person has had. At an absolute bare minimum, you will want them to have CSI, CSII, SERI and CSP (the pediatrics class). More training is nice, but just like with any kind of service provider, you can have someone with lots of training who still isn't good due to the personal issues they bring to their job; and vice versa, you can have someone with less training who is absolutely fantastic. Pick one or more who look promising, then call and explain your situation. Ask if they have experience working with children your dd's age who suffered from birth trauma. I'm not sure where you're located ... if it's in SE Michigan, I can refer you to a phenomenal CS therapist. She's a massage therapist also, and only charges $30/session for kids (about 30 minutes long). Depending on where you are in the country, and what other training the therapist has had, it could be much more (I've seen people on MDC paying as much as ~$80/session, if I recall correctly). Another important thing is to follow your gut. I've heard of CS therapists who stop what they're doing when a child starts crying. Since children often release trauma, emotions, etc., by crying (and also laughing -- dd was laughing like crazy at her most recent session







), this is not helpful at all. The therapist has to be comfortable with that emotional release, and continue working with the child, supporting them through it. Also, they can tell if it's an emotional release or not (e.g., with a baby, one might wonder if it's crying because it's hungry). When something significant is happening, the cranial rhythm stops cold (I've felt this while working on someone, and it's unmistakable, even to someone with as little training as me), so if the rhythm stops when the crying starts, then you know the child is doing healing work. If you don't feel good about what the therapist is doing, and how they're handling things, then go see someone else.

I hope this is helpful. Please let me know if you need more info. And good luck. I am confident you will be able to help your dd through this







.


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

Maybe the rough suctioning has to do with how the medical establishment doesn't believe that babies brains are developed enough to feel pain. They do all kinds of torturous things with seeming disregard for the baby as a person. My children each have some birth trauma, even the births I thought had none. Another reason for a homebirth that it can give us more of an opprotunity to be thinking of the baby during and after, and not just the mom.

I found a cranial sacral therapist that is also a doula and is on the list and has all of the classes you mentioned. But at the cost of doing all of my children, it would cost less to get trained in cranial sacral, so I am considering that.

So, four of my children wanted to be rebirthed yesterday. They are all going through their different birth traumas, it's like I had quads. My 11 year old was in the NICU and he is having such a rough time. He remembers everything! He is reliving the physical pain such as the nasal prong and burning lungs, and the pku cutting into his feet is very hard to process since his dad held him during the procedure. Dh had a long talk about it to put it in perspective (you weren't breathing, you were blue, what were we supposed to do? and that the doctors were trying to help and not being malicous) Our son said that if he were going to choose where to be born he would have chosen to be born in the trailer at the campground where we lived in an unnattended homebirth, rather than induced with the midwife four hours away and enduring the NICU. He wanted to know why did we let that stuff happen to him? He would have rather had labor start naturally and been born in the local small hospital. He complained of feeling itchy during the birth, and like he needed to sneeze. We never considered when making our decision about our birth "where would our baby rather be born?".

My second oldest girl, who had the least trauma, when I rubbed her head and shoulders in a birthing motion said things like "why did you do an ultrasound?" (at the time, I don't know, no reason, why did she ask?), then she said "I'm hungry" (we were on the macrobiotic diet). Then she said she was sending me strong messages to go to dunkin donuts for donuts and dairy queen for a peanut buster parfait. (We went off the macrobiotic diet after 2 months and the first place we went was dairy queen for a peanut buster parfait...we once drove an hour because I had a intense craving for dunkin donuts and there were none closeby.) She said I read way too many books during the pregnancy (I read all of the birthing books during pregnancy) and maybe that is why she hates reading today. She believes her birth went so well and fast (57 minutes) because of the reading she knew exactly what to do (she could hear what I was reading? or because I would go tell dh what I read. hmm), and that she could read the thoughts of the midwife during her birth and what she was thinking...which was about being glad to be getting paid and that our family was loony...ouch. LOL

Most surprising is that at our unexpected unnattended homebirth, our dd had head and neck trauma that we didn't know about. She right away shortly after rebirthing started complaining of a headache & neckache. She is reliving the experience of having whooping cough at two weeks old and has started coughing up phlem just like the phlem from whooping cough, thick and mucousy. Wild! Right after the birth, she said she was put into total shock when we passed her around and let her older sibling hold her after the birth. His hands were cold. She became cold and scared, and stopped breathing and had to be transported.

The daughter who has an eye disease is still going through very big strong emotions at her birth, and we resolved that the emotions and grief the family was feeling was not because of her but because of circumstances, and not her fault. She felt such a release afterwards that she lightened up considerably and slept very heavy and well when she is usually very restless and kicky during the night.

ladies, can I just say that it would have been much easier to process all of this at the time when they were babies then now when they are older children. Or much better to have avoided some of these avoidable traumas. I would recommend cranial sacral and rebirthing exercises to all babies after their births. Or the crying in arms to relieve this stress and get it out rather than keep it inside. Babies need quiet and unstimulating times after the birth to process the experience of birth afterwards. I am seriously doubting whether or not it is a good idea to have siblings at the birth after this.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Really fascinating Bestbirths! DD my waterbirthed baby is terrified of going under water. Washing her hair is a huge ordeal. I don't know what the deal is but it has kind of made me wonder if I really want to waterbirth this one! I do remember when she was born, I held her in my arms for a second and then she started screaming bloody murder. It is the same scream she uses when I try to wash her hair...

DS was suctioned. I'm still furious about it. He's gone through phases of sadness - weeks when he just didn't seem to have his usual spark. But he has seemed to come out of it - he's generally very agreeable, but definately strongly attached to mama. I think we helped each other process his birth experience and move on. With dd it was alot harder - I had post traumatic stress after her birth, and alternated from being very attached to her, to almost feeling victimized by her at times.


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shanana* 
I also feel it's so incredibly important for babies to not be separated from their mama unless it's life threatening.

I remember listening to a talk on 3rd and 4th stage complications where they said, even if the baby was unresponsive, they should be rescutated on the mom's belly. I am thinking that even if it's life threatening, the baby should not be separated from the mom if it is at all possible. So, baby not responsive, rescutate on mom's belly, then if needing to transport, take mom and baby. If mom is hemmoraging and needing to transport, take baby to hospital with the mom. It wouldn't have taken much to load someone holding baby into the car at that time. It's a risk/benefit and the risk of emotional damage from separation is greater than the physical risk (such as just load person holding baby in car with no carseat and go) but in our society we don't usually value emotions over physical safety.

This is something that could be pre thought out in the birth plan and that you'd almost have to mention to everyone at your birth as a transport scenario. Who really plays out what they would do ahead of time this kind of stuff though?

Quote:

=2bluefish; I don't know what the deal is but it has kind of made me wonder if I really want to waterbirth this one!
Well, I was the same as you, not wanting to repeat the same traumas as previous births, yet accidentally having other traumas at the births that come after. Now my whole outlook on birth is changing. If you look at it from the babies point of view all the time, I think it will make it easier to avoid birth traumas...a lot more of them, even if you had another waterbirth.
The attendant needs to be attentive to what is going on with the mom and make sure that the baby is not having any trauma during the birth. This is why I think having doulas work with midwives at a homebirth is good, because one person really can't do it all if there is complications.
If there is a midwife, assistant, and doula and they are all keyed into what is going on with mom and baby, maybe that would be a solution.

I cleaned out my garage and found notes that talk about how a baby can survive 1/2 hour after placenta separation without oxygen. It takes a lot of skill to notice when this is happening (if this is what happened to us at our unnattended homebirth, we didn't notice) and we weren't monitoring fetal heart tones. I didn't remember that with a short or entangled cord a baby can put out a hormone that can completely stop labor until the placenta detaches, then be born with it detached. That might explain why dd's labor stalled for four hours after transition and how it would even be possible for chunks of placental material came out before her head was delivered, how she could have lived through that, why her birth was very stressed, traumatic, and frantic from her point of view.

Now I understand how people can say why would a baby ever need to cry, or why would your baby be having birth trauma if you had a homebirth? But if you're placenta detached and you had only a certain amount of time to be born without oxygen, you would probably be pretty freaked out and probably benifit from being given a safe space to express your emotions afterwards like, crying in arms. But since it's been so long now, and we didn't allow her to express those strong emotions at the time, I am thankful that there are other options like cranial sacral and birth trauma therapies.

For the drainage, my notes from a talk by Dr. John Stevenson say that babies cry and and grunt to clear bronchial tubes and usually don't want to suck for 1/2 an hour after the birth. It says to wipe out the mouth with gause and listen to the babies first breath, if clear. fine. If not, to set baby in drainage posture (hand under babies abdomen and other hand under forehead, holding bottom up high in order to put a slope on the trachea). Babies mouth should be open and facing the floor. They reflexively try to clear their airway if they are conscious. Meconium Aspriation is due to proceedures with sucker with baby laying supine.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Hmm, well, what I'm quesitoning with waterbirth is this assumption that no baby will mind being born into water, and all babies will find that a gentle introduction to the world. How do we *know* that is true?

I won't have any attendants this time. I feel like even those with the best intentions interfer with mama communicating with baby.

I have to admit I was pretty selfish with my first 2 births. I was looking to avoid traumas to myself, and incorrectly assumed that would mean my children would come out untraumatized as well. The more I learn to keep my mind on helping my baby into the world instead of my own comfort the better things seem to go.


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## Shanana (May 11, 2005)

Bestbirths, that is some seriously intense stuff your family is doing. IMO, you are doing your own form of CST. And ITA with your comment on the medical establishment not acknowledging babies as humans with the ability to feel pain. It seems that it's not until children can express themselves with words that they're treated like full members of the human race.

Let me give you a little more info in case you decide to do the CST training. In CSI you'll learn a "10-step protocol", which is kind of a cookbook approach to CST. You will not learn how to determine what a particular person's needs are, but you will learn the basics of CST, and except in rare cases (which you will be told about), the 10-step won't hurt anyone. You will be told not to practice on children younger than ... shoot, I can't remember. At least 2, but I think it's more like 5 or 6. The craniosacral system is not fully developed until that age, and the rhythm is much harder to detect. You will need CSII, SER and CSP before you can practice on young children. Before moving on to the CSII training, it's recommended that you do something like at least 70 10-step protocols. You want to have it down cold, and also have lots of experience palpating and evaluating the CS rhythm on different people. Most people doing CST training are bodyworkers by trade (like a massage therapist, physical therapist, etc.). I am not, and I'm finding it really difficult to get the hands-on experience I need to continue building my skills. I don't have a massage table, so I don't have a good place to work. And I have people who are willing to volunteer for me to work on them, but in ideal circumstances, I can make that work maybe once a week (but in reality, it is far, far less). So you can see that getting 70 10-steps under my belt is going to take a long time. Of course, that is not a requirement, but a recommendation. But you'll be wasting your money on CSII until you've done enough 10-steps to feel comfortable with the protocol (which may be more than 70, or less). So just a warning that it's not like you take the classes wham, bam one after the other. It can be a rather prolonged process.

I definitely agree that 1) it is best to avoid birth trauma as best as possible (immediate and prolonged contact with mama, no suctioning, little or no testing unless life threatening, etc.); and 2) knowing that not all birth trauma can be avoided, it is good to address it right away (you better believe any future kids I have will be seeing our CS therapist as soon as possible). I think it's still good to keep in mind that sometimes kids won't be able to fully process something until they reach a certain level of maturity and communication ability. They might need to actually put words to the experience, for example, which is something an infant can't do. I just say this as a reminder to be open to the idea that stuff may come up as a child gets older, even if it seems like they "let everything go" as a baby.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bestbirths* 
I am seriously doubting whether or not it is a good idea to have siblings at the birth after this.

I was wondering if you would be willing to elaborate on this. I can guess at reasons you might say this, but I would love to hear more if you're willing to share. Is it mainly for how it might affect the newborn? Or the older child(ren) as well? We are going to ttc soon, and I plan on having a homebirth this time around. If we conceive when we hope to, dd will be going on 3 when the baby is born. It has been my assumption that she would be allowed to participate in the birth at whatever level is comfortable for her. So I would love to hear more on this.


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

_subbing_


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

I was given Althea Solter's _The Aware Baby_ during my pregnancy by my dear friend, Norma. I read it prior to giving birth, and she provides a pretty clear description of how a baby behaves when s/he needs to cry for healing. She also gave me very clear instructions on how to help my child be born, to communicate to my child that I was here, helping her, and how to "handle" hospital personnel and policies. Keep baby IN mommy's room 24/7, breast feeding only, no drugs, natural childbirth, of course, but, turns out, we didn't get to do it that way. My instructions were posted on my door, and I had to let go of almost every single desire I had hoped for.

I had toxemia/pre-eclampsia, so I was induced at 37 weeks, close to term anyway, but, early. Pitocin, something else, finally, they had to break my water to give us a chance at vaginal delivery. I got the whatsit, needle in the back, can't remember the word right now, and, by the time it was TIME, dilated enough, it wore off a lot and I experienced the kind of labor that hurts so bad that I don't remember any crying or yelling that witnesses say I definitely did, and I totally pushed and we did it together, me and my baby. Well, to be fair, my little sister, who'd delivered naturally two enormous babies, was my birth coach, and she helped me to isolate exactly the muscles I needed to in order to push effectively, so I give her a lot of credit.

My baby was born very low apgar, blue, and got the suction and oxygen and all, in my room with me but away from my bed, of course, in that cart where I could have seen her if there weren't a dozen doctors and nurses and techs and my sister in the way (My sis was protecting me from seeing that my baby was blue.)

When I could hear that the whoever they were who saved my baby people had saved her (apgar up to top), and were just continuing to chat with each other while they finished up, I asked them politely to please be quiet so my baby could hear my voice only. And they parted, so I could see her, and as I began talking to her while I was being fixed up and she was being cleaned up, my tiny little five pound thirteen oz baby turned her face to mine, and our eyes met and, well, it's impossible to describe. Our love story sprang into full bloom in that instant.

I am comfortable with my own crying for healing. I remember my own birth, of not feeling helped, of being alone, and, as I discovered well into adulthood, in fact, my mother had not only gotten a "saddle block," but she was totally PUT UNDER. Unconscious for childbirth! It was the 1950s. So, I am aware that babies can certainly be aware of their birth experience, but also, of their in utero experience, and they can have strong, emotional responses that can definitely be life-affecting.

I used Solter's wonderfully simple parenting advice, and completely understood why it made sense, and in fact, it worked for my dd. If my dd cried inconsolably, and she was kicking a lot even though I'd fed her, I'd changed her, I'd burped her, I'd checked for pain, etc., I'd hold her quietly and firmly, look into her eyes and hold that look steady. I would look into her eyes and _accept her communication to me_. I'd notice what her body was doing: kicking legs are a signal for needing to cry, according to Solter, if I remember correctly. I'd not rock her, not sing to her, not do anything but hold her in my arms, not tightly, just certainly, and I would look into her eyes purposely without any look of concern or worry or annoyance on my face, but instead a look of understanding that _she is communicating with me._ That's _active listening_. It's listening to the message even though you don't necessarily understand it. Taking a cue from a wife's cliche complaint to her husband: "I don't want you to solve my problem; I just want you to _listen."_

She quickly learned that it was okay to cry to me, to cry at my face... she needed to cry TO ME, not just cry it out, but to cry TO ME. She maintained eye contact with me while she cried and kicked. And she would go on for several minutes and suddenly on a dime would be done and shudder to a stop. Like letting the air out of a balloon.

That was my experience. It was wonderful. Solter's book is well worth reading. I've long since passed it on to another mother-to-be, one precious book I'd love to keep for sentimental value, but the contents simply too valuable not to get into every young mother's hands that I could.

VF


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
The more I learn to keep my mind on helping my baby into the world instead of my own comfort the better things seem to go.

This seems like the key to making births better for the baby. From what my children have told me about their births, they were much smarter, stronger, and resourseful than I would have expected, and they are very tough, but at the same time extremely sensitive too. A couple of my children were hurt when they were pushed out in one push, not head, then body, but head and body all at once in one push. Pushing is a whole other subject on how it may effect birth trauma. My second baby slid out with no pushing, and was possibly the least traumatic birth.

On siblings at a birth, at our births they all want to hold the baby. Maybe siblings could come if they could be taught to understand what a baby has gone through and why the baby can't be held right away. If they can't, then maybe they shouldn't be there at the birth.

My second daughter was scared when she was passed around to siblings after the birth, they unwrapped her to look at her toes and fingers. They touched her with cold hands. She became chilled, then stopped breathing right as the midwife arrived, about an hour or two after the birth. They took her for a quick checkup for 20 minutes at the hospital up the street, then the doctor said, she was fine, she just got cold. It was February in Montana in the middle of a blizzard too.

My other daughter had just experienced a very challenging birth, where she needed to act, think, figure, out and accomplish a tricky birthing process and overcome obstacles under a pressure of completing the task of being born in a specific time frame, before her oxygen ran out after her placenta detached, the clock was ticking. I haven't asked her, but it seems like the party, joking atmosphere of the siblings did as she was birthed, didn't match someone who had just completed a challenge like that. Maybe something more quiet and subdued would have been better. I know that I did listen and send everyone out during the four hour labor stall. Then, just right before the birth I called everyone back in.

The daughter who completed this birth complains lately of being bored all the time. We unschool and we do not give her anything to do that is challenging. She performs well under pressure. She would like to be challenged. So, I said how about cleaning the house for Father's Day? LOL. They are cleaning now.

Babies are working out breathing, recovering from a lot of work during the birth, possible head or neck trauma. It is probably not a good idea at all to pass them around to other people. I don't know for exactly how long, but if you think of being very sore from exertion, maybe for the first week that the mom is recovering in bed, the baby shouldn't really be passed around. The baby probably need to get some cranial sacral, or make sure their head heals before being passed around. If other people do handle the baby, the mother should be very near, and they should be handling the baby very carefully, make sure their hands are warm, being very careful to support the head and neck. I think we all know this, but my daughter became very scared when being held by a sibling. An adult needs to have close supervision when a sibling holds a baby, but in our case the adults were attending to me at our unexpected unattended homebirth and we failed to protect her from becoming cold and scared after her birth. I guess we didn't prepare those at the birth to be thinking about what the baby was going through.

Now that we are doing rebirthing exercises, they are becoming more sensitive about what babies need, because they are telling me what they would have needed or wish they had at their births.
Maybe rebirthing exercises could be done with siblings before the birth so that they could help make the birth a better experience for the sibling. I mean, who would know better, if they could verbalize it? I don't know.


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

Viewfinder your story is beautiful. I am going to request the book "The Aware Baby" at the library.


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

Since doing the rebirthing excercises my daughters chi that has been not moving and very low has impoved 50% in two weeks. The only thing we've done during the past 2 weeks is add a herbal blend with chinese hyssop for increasing chi, and the rebirthing.

My other son is rebirthing and reliving the experience of gunk in his lungs and has developed a cough. We watched his birth video and his 2 year old sister was in his leboyer bath, causing him to startle. Later, he was transported to the NICU. I think we didn't manage our children well at the birth, looking back at it, maybe sibs could attend the birth but right after, mom and babe need time alone. My 2 yr old was all hyped up on candy she got everytime she went potty. She put her hands on the baby in the leboyer bath and rocked him, not gently, and that startled him too. Then we took her out...but looking back...ARGH!!!!! What was the point? A leboyer bath is supposed to be a relaxing way to help the baby release birth trauma too, but not when it's messed with like that.


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## madhavi (Jul 2, 2006)

i think more ppl need to read this thread...so
bump!


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

My daughters chi is normal and has been normal since the rebirthing. There really is something to this and it is fascinating to me. Thanks for the bump!


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## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *M&Mmommy* 
Many people nod along until they hear that nursing to stop a child from crying is also short-circuiting the healing. After all, nursing is part nourishment, part comfort. However, putting a breast in a baby's mouth when she is crying because (unbeknowst to anyone) the way her blankets are wrapped around her legs is bringing up the scary sensations she experienced during birth, causes her to stop offloading the feelings. On the other hand, if her mother would hold her in arms, soothingly reminding her that she is safe, that it's okay to let out all her fears and cry, she would work through and be able to see that this situation, though reminiscent of a scary situation, isn't dangerous. And moreover, that it is safe to have scary feelings and let them out. No need to push them down, run from them, or be threatened by uncomfortable feelings.

This would require a mother to be omnipotent. And unfortunatly (or fortunately) we are not. So we guess, we try the breast, try stomach massage, try to rock, try to see if some physical problem like an ear infection..... and if the babe still cries, then perhaps it is an emotional issue that needs getting out, by way of crying. But darned if I am going to sit back and let my DD CIO, under the assumption it is emotional trauma, until I have tried all the other pratical and physical issues first.

M&Mmommy, I did like your story about how your own DC needed this outlet (and then age to verbally express it and process it). But I hope you meant it as a story about YOUR babe, not a policy other mothers should follow. Each babe is different. Some may need this outlet. Many others may not.


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllisonR* 
This would require a mother to be omnipotent. And unfortunatly (or fortunately) we are not. So we guess, we try the breast, try stomach massage, try to rock, try to see if some physical problem like an ear infection..... and if the babe still cries, then perhaps it is an emotional issue that needs getting out, by way of crying. But darned if I am going to sit back and let my DD CIO, under the assumption it is emotional trauma, until I have tried all the other pratical and physical issues first.

M&Mmommy, I did like your story about how your own DC needed this outlet (and then age to verbally express it and process it). But I hope you meant it as a story about YOUR babe, not a policy other mothers should follow. Each babe is different. Some may need this outlet. Many others may not.

I learned (in a book) how to see the signals my baby gave me to know that she needed to offload feelings by crying. People have researched this, and like many things we learn from researchers, they turn out to be true and the theories they present work in practice. It's like hearing someone yelling at you in French or Farsi when you've never heard it before: they're SAYING something but you don't know what it is because you have not learned.

VF


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