# S/O: Disowning or Ignoring those who circ



## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

This is a spinoff from "Was I Being Petty".

Have you ever ended or severely halted any relationship with someone after they put their son through circumcision? I'm talking *specifically* about those who still have their son circumicised *even after* you've provided sufficient information against the surgery. (I don't want this discussion to include how you feel about people you've met after they've had their son cut).

My sister and her husband had their barely 6 1/2 pound newborn circumcised even after I gave her an incredible amount of information. I explained the structure of the foreskin, what it does, how circumcision is performed, how torturous it is for the baby. She saw photos and drawings of circumcisions being performed. She knew there's a liklihood of serious complications like the loss of the baby's penis and death. She and her husband are strong Christians so I explained how circ is not needed for Chrisitians. Earlier in her pregnancy I thought I had gotten through to her. I even remember her seeing a photo of a baby mid-circ and saying she could never do that to her baby.

My sister is about an inch shorter than me. My son was born naturally in the hospital weighing 8 pounds 10 oz. My daughter was born at home in a birth tub weighing 8 pounds 8 oz. No one told me that I couldn't have my babies. My sister's OB, on the other hand, took one look at her and told her she'd most likely need a cesarean section. She wanted a natural birth because she was afraid of the epidural going into her spine. I gave her a ton of information, bought her several books, and helped her as much as I could given our distance apart. (She's in Virginia, I'm in Illinois.) I encouraged her over and over to at least give labor a try, that most likely she'd be able to have the baby, but the doctor could still give her a c-section if it was truly necessary. In the end, she gave into the doctor and had a scheduled c-section two weeks before her EDD. She never even went into labor. And, like I mentioned earlier, that baby was barely 6.5 pounds.

I called her right after she had the baby to congratulate them on their new baby and to give her intact care. I started explaining intact care and she cut me off midsentence, "We're having him circumcised." I had to bite my tongue to keep from responding with the words that popped into my head. I asked her why on earth she'd do that to her baby. Her answer was that something had to pay for what she'd just been through. In other words, she decided to punish that tiny, perfect, newborn with mutilation because she felt bad about herself giving in to the doctor's recommendation of a cesarean.







:







I told her that nothing had to be done right away, that the best thing would be to take her son home and get used to him. I told him a foreskin isn't that big a deal after you've seen it a few times. I thought I'd gotten through to her, but sadly I hadn't.

I found out she'd had him circumcised when he was 3 days old and I saw his red, raw penis during a diaper change. From the middle of his shaft down he had tissue ripped away. When she took his diaper off he urinated on his wound and screamed bloody murder. She just stood there with a stupid grin on her face trying to figure out what made him start crying. I was dumbfounded. I said, "He's just had surgery to rip a big chunk off his penis. He's in pain! Give him some tylenol or something." She refused, telling me that it didn't hurt that much and that he'd be okay. She then proceeded to rub some sort of cream all over his red, raw penis which I have to admit really sickened me. After having an intact son I now see the exposed glans as being even more private than the flaccid intact penis. I couldn't imagine myself ever rubbing a cream all over my own son's glans. That's one sensation I would not want him associating with me.

It's been nearly 2 months and I haven't talked to her except once since then. I went with our Dad to visit her, her husband, and the baby. In my mind what she did was sexual abuse, pure and simple. She knew why it was wrong, she knew there are men who hate being circumcised, she knew everything she needed, and yet she still chose to put her son through that torture. She didn't have the excuse of ignorance. In my mind, there's no difference between a stranger sexually assaulting a child, and her having part of her son's penis ripped off. In short, she's not the same person I once knew, and I don't think I'll ever feel close to her again.

On the bright side, I got some cute toys picked out to send the baby for his 6 month birthday. As others have said, it's not his fault his parents made such a horrible decision.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AntoninBeGonin* 
She didn't have the excuse of ignorance. In my mind, there's no difference between a stranger sexually assaulting a child, and her having part of her son's penis ripped off.

I feel the exact same way! I would not be able to ever respect her again.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

omg i just could not be around her.

she made her little boy pay for her ignorance in having a c/s??? just fraking great. omg!!! i think i am going to be sick.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AntoninBeGonin* 
Her answer was that something had to pay for what she'd just been through.

OMGosh. I think I just vomited in my mouth. This is the most disgusting thing I've ever read.

No, I would lose *all* respect for her.

And if she ever wondered why I had become so distant, I wouldn't hesitate to let her know.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

I could not be around someone like that..... nope, no way. If that makes me the big bi***, then so be it.


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## cherri0196 (Jun 30, 2007)

I have to agree with everyone else!! I don't think I could look at my sister the same way again if she ever did that to my nephew. And she did it to make him "pay" for what was done to her?!?!!?!?!!! OMG I think that is the sickest thing I have ever heard!!

Im sorry she did that to your poor nephew and obviously don't care about his pain. So sending you lots of (((HUGS)))

My SO's SIL is having a little boy in Sept. and even after all the info I gave her she is STILL going to cut their son!! Its so sickening, It was all I could think about for WEEKS and he's not even here yet!! UGH. Luckily for me were not that close anyway and they just sold their house and there moving like an hour away from us, so I won't have to see or hear about his poor mutilated penis.

But to answer your question, YES I have had friendships severely damaged because they cut their son AFTER I gave them all the info why its so wrong!! I still talk to them but RARELY and if I do im so disconnected and just can't get over what they have done.

You do what you need to do, I know its different when its family but take your time, you don't HAVE to talk to her if you don't want to.

Good luck!!


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AntoninBeGonin* 
Her answer was that something had to pay for what she'd just been through. In other words, she decided to punish that tiny, perfect, newborn with mutilation because she felt bad about herself giving in to the doctor's recommendation of a cesarean.







:









That would have given me a scare about her ability to care for him, actually, at least in that immediate post partum time. That just doesn't sound right. Unless she was angry and was taking it out on you by saying something this inflammatory.

I'm one of those people who doesn't really know the circ status of my friend's sons in most cases, and I am not one to disown people for that, but this situation I would really have a hard time ever dealing with her after this. When my niece was having her first baby, I sent her information from No Circ, including a story about babies who died from circumcision. Then when I talked to my sister about it, she cut me off and said there was no way in hell she would let him stay uncircumcised. My niece was young, her mother had a lot of influence and I thought I would appeal to her since she can be open-minded, but she was so close-minded about it, it pissed me off. But then my niece ended up having a girl (then 2 more girls, then a tubal ligation at the age of 21), so I didn't have to deal with the fallout of the circ decision, but I'm still upset by the attitude.


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## jumpincholla (Feb 23, 2005)

Hurting her son because she was upset about what was done to her is horrible and abusive. I can understand why people have such a difficult time getting their heads around why circing is harmful. There are so many people who have not ever seen an intact penis...or even understand what it means to leave a penis intact. There needs to be a shift in our culture and that does not often come about quickly or easily. Changing people's misconceptions about circ will take time. Changing the advice mainstream docs give to new parents will take time. Changing the social pressures around circ will take time. I can even understand being confused by the different sides of the debate, and the different statistics and studies. But to hurt your child out of spite, and to take pleasure in his pain and discomfort is sadistic. I don't think I'd be able to have the same relationship with her.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

cutting his boys was the final straw with my brother. We no longer speak!


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cherri0196* 
! I still talk to them but RARELY and if I do im so disconnected and just can't get over what they have done.

Good luck!!


see thats how it is w/ me also. I dont walk up to ppl and say "OMG you mutiliated your son and I can never talk to you again" (which is how i feel)....but I do feel sooo disconnected when i talk to them and really find nothing to say (we can talk about gardening or kids or whatever but in my mind, all i can think of is what they did)....so yeh, the friendship just fades away.


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## Bm31 (Jun 5, 2005)

Yes, the same with my sister. I won't even blame the BIL because I know her (strong-willed) and she could have had her way. We were always close to each other and she was the first person I confided to about what they did to me as a kid....the botched circ, botched re-circ, adhesions and the resulting damage, meatal stenosis, etc. She cried....I cried. When she later stated that she would circ a son (they were trying at the time) I was dumbfounded and asked her just _what_ she would do if her son had complications? She glibly said she would sue the doctor and get her son some counselling (which I also felt implied that the problem was all mental...totally ignoring the physical realities that resulted). When I told her that all the money in the world couldn't replace what was taken, she didn't know how to respond.

Then, about two years later my nephew was born. I sent a card and some $$, but I couldn't bring myself to call her. About two weeks later I got a nasty call from her where she basically ripped into me and said, "If you don't like it that *I* had *my* son circumcised then you don't need to send gifts or call or have any contact with us..."

So, I just said, "Ok," and hung up on her and didn't speak to her for just over two years. It wasn't until my niece was born with a severe heart condition that I got a tearful phone call from her with a bunch of "I'm sorries." I'm still not sure to this day exactly what she was sorry for, but that wasn't the time and place to get into it. I can only hope that after everything they've been through with my beautiful niece _needing_ surgeries in a life and death situation, that she has seen the folly of taking risks with unnecessary, cosmetic surgery. I'm sure someday we'll have that talk again, especially if they have another ds (they've discussed trying for one more). I will not accept the "we did one, so we have to do the other" excuse or it WILL be the last time we ever speak. However, in the meantime I am remaining cordial with her just so I can have a relationship with my niece and nephew who I love to death. I am trying, but I will never feel quite the same about my sister who was once one of my closest friends.


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## liliesandliars (Feb 27, 2005)

I have to agree with the others. That was sick. I have a hard time believing that a mother would really say that... that because she was cut in order to give birth, the baby has to be cut so that they're... what...? Even? Like I said, sick.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I don't blame you one bit for distancing yourself from your sister. She doesn't sound like someone I would want to be close to either.
Her reason for harming her son is just disgusting but not the first time I've heard a mother feel that way about her son's circumcision.

I think the natural consequence of someone knowingly hurting their child is for people to no longer want to be close with them.


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## ~Em~ (Oct 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AntoninBeGonin* 
After having an intact son I now see the exposed glans as being even more private than the flaccid intact penis. I couldn't imagine myself ever rubbing a cream all over my own son's glans. That's one sensation I would not want him associating with me.

You are totally entitled to your circing opinion, obviously - I'm not questioning that.

However, penises get infected - circ'd ones, intact ones - they can ALL get infected and it can affect any part of the penis. It's happened to us and I've had to intensely medicate my infant son's red, raw little penis - it was actually bleeding around the base and _entire_ underside due to a severe YI. You make it sound like putting meds on a penis is _sexual_ in any way and I take issue with that. It's no more sexual than careful washing is - it's medication, plain and simple, even if you do not agree with the reason behind the need for the meds, which I completely respect.

I also agree that your sister's reasoning is quite disturbing, but I'm _hoping_ the comment was said in a moment of intense stress or emotional confusion and she didn't really mean it the way you perceived it.


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## bluetoes (May 12, 2007)

I don't think I could be around a friend or relative that did it after getting all the information either. Child abuse, even if done with the best intentions, is child abuse.


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## llamalluv (Aug 24, 2007)

My sister did it to her first son, despite me telling her that there was no reason to. It went terribly bad (infection) and he had to have a corrective surgery. Then with her third child, she opted to do it again. Any time it comes up, I pretty much read her the riot act. We've never really gotten along very well, anyway, and she just doesn't make good choices in general. (She's currently living in her in-laws back yard, in a yard barn. In Phoenix.)


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## llamalluv (Aug 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Em~* 
You are totally entitled to your circing opinion, obviously - I'm not questioning that.

However, penises get infected - circ'd ones, intact ones - they can ALL get infected and it can affect any part of the penis. It's happened to us and I've had to intensely medicate my infant son's red, raw little penis - it was actually bleeding around the base and _entire_ underside due to a severe YI. You make it sound like putting meds on a penis is _sexual_ in any way and I take issue with that. It's no more sexual than careful washing is - it's medication, plain and simple, even if you do not agree with the reason behind the need for the meds, which I completely respect.


I think she specifically meant the glans, not "the penis", which under natural circumstances would not be exposed at a month old.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

OMG! What would she have done to a little girl to make her "pay"???


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

~Em~, you come across as very pro-circ (at least by my standards). I would like for you to keep in mind that she would not have needed to rub any sort of cream all over her newborn's glans if she had not had his body mutilated. That wasn't a case of him getting an infection that she was treating. A situation like that is unplanned and unfortunate. My intact son has never had a single problem with his penis. Parents who have their sons circumcised must know that they will be required to handle their son's penis over and over again during the healing process.

In my mind, there is a huge difference between treating a rare infection that a baby had the unfortunate luck to acquire and taking care of a circumcision wound that the parents inflicted on him.


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## ~Em~ (Oct 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *llamalluv* 
I think she specifically meant the glans, not "the penis", which under natural circumstances would not be exposed at a month old.

I agree, but any part _could_ get infected. My older son actually had a nasty pimple on his glans - the very tip. It turned out to be MRSA and affected other parts of him too. My point was that any part *could* have medical issues (circ-related or completely unrelated), and treating it with medication isn't sexual.


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## ~Em~ (Oct 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AntoninBeGonin* 
~Em~, you come across as very pro-circ (at least by my standards).

I'm not. I've just had lots of penis problems at this house!

ETA - If by "pro-circ" you mean more tolerant of everyone, then yes, you are probably right. I try to be tolerant of everyone (regardless of the issue - it could be BF/FF or whatever) in the hopes that gentle persuasion will change their opinions because in my experience being shunned or lectured or intimidated has the direct opposite effect. By no means do I mean to dismiss others' feelings her as I understand where you are coming from. I just feel that the "cure" is more effectively achieved by a different set of tools than some here.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Yes, that's it! You seem pro-circ to me because you aren't actively bashing it like I'm used to reading on this forum. This is case against circumcision, so there is no need to tread lightly here







. I'm so used to people being loudly, unapologetically, and strongly anti-circ that when I read comments made in a more neutral fashion (such as yours) they worry me.

So it's all cool







. I understand what you're saying.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

I think you have to decide how you want to live your life, and how you want to treat people and family members.

She hurt her son. She indirectly hurt you by hurting her son. Whether you want to exclude her from your life is a very personal and difficult decision.

Best wishes.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Psssst

Hey folks, I'm not looking for support in my decision. I don't feel bad about my reaction to her cutting her son. I appreciate the comments saying that you would have done the same in my position, but don't feel that you need to consider my feelings before you respond. I just wanted to start a thread where we could discuss what it's like to have a relationship changed by circumcision.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

I ended a friendship over it. It had been a pretty close friendship, nothing like losing a sister though. She had a lot of disgusting, abusive attitudes about it to... wasn't just misguided beliefs or anything like that. More than anything it really just brought to light what an ignorant, selfish person she is.


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## Couz (Dec 28, 2006)

I have to admit to playing the ostrich.

My best friend was due 10 weeks before I was. We knew I was having a boy, and they thought they were having a girl. I've been very open about my views on circumcision in the past, and I know she reads my blog regularly where I have posted on the topic of circumcision on more than one occasion. I didn't actually confront her about it because they were having a girl, so it didn't matter.

But out came a boy. I didn't talk to her for a couple of weeks after the birth (she ended up with a c-section and was in hospital for nearly a week) and it didn't actually occur to me to ask. After all... why would she, right?

Once I thought about it I was actually afraid to ask. I knew that (a) her husband is circ'd, (b) they live in a region where circ is more common, and (c) it seems to me that her husband calls the shots on pretty much everything. So I was afraid to ask because I was afraid I wouldn't like the answer. And I knew that it would change the way I felt about one of my best friends-- there is no way I wouldn't lose respect for her and judge her for her decision.

One day my Facebook status remarked on the fact that we had my son's first vaccinations that day. She messaged me saying "good luck with the vaccinations-- they weren't nearly as tough on me as his circumcision!". I got nauseous. I know that she had intentionally 'broken' the news to me like this knowing that I would be upset. I've never spoken to her about it. And when we saw them last (don't see them often, living on opposite ends of the country and all) I did notice that she never changed his diaper in front of me.









We're still friends, but it's not the same. And God help her if she ever brings up the topic, cause I'm not holding back just to spare her feelings on this one.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Em~* 
I'm not. I've just had lots of penis problems at this house!

ETA - If by "pro-circ" you mean more tolerant of everyone, then yes, you are probably right. I try to be tolerant of everyone (regardless of the issue - it could be BF/FF or whatever) in the hopes that gentle persuasion will change their opinions because in my experience being shunned or lectured or intimidated has the direct opposite effect. By no means do I mean to dismiss others' feelings her as I understand where you are coming from. I just feel that the "cure" is more effectively achieved by a different set of tools than some here.

I completely agree with you on that approach. I will be strong on the issue, but I will take off from their point of view first. Its important to give understanding to the people you speak with first, or they will close themselves off to anything you say.

Although even though I will try to argue from their point of view, deep inside I see male circumcision is being just as wrong as female circumcision (not because of physical damage) but because its taking away the same basic human rights, that we as humans should do everything we can to protect.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

I *wish* I could end my relationship w/my MIL for nagging me about having my son intact... does that count?

Actually, I have a couple friends I just don't.want.to.know. I talked to them about it, I hope they wouldn't do it, but I don't want to ruin our relationship over it, so I try not to think about it. I don't know what I'll do if I find out. cry, probably.


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## Eben'sMama (Jun 29, 2006)

Total dealbreaker for me. No question.


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## Frootloop (Aug 10, 2007)

Yes, I have ended a relationship because of circ. In fact, I posted about it here.. I don't mind posting about it again, though.

I recently ended a practically lifelong (from toddlerhood) close relationship with my cousin, who I assume just had her new baby boy. We live over 900 miles apart, but we usually spoke 2-3 times a week over the phone.

While she was early in her 2nd pregnancy, we'd talked briefly about circumcision (she'd circ'd her first out of complete ignorance). I'd brought it up here and there, but never got into any *deep* discussions.. I kind of didn't want to go there if I didn't absolutely have to at that point. When she found out it was a boy, I asked her quite a few times if she'd let me send her some information.. and she SWORE to me that she would allow me to educate her, even though she didn't think her husband would "allow" it. She was definitely a bit reluctant in the beginning, but like I said, she swore that she would read everything that I sent her. She knew that it was important..

I gathered info for a couple months.. info that I'd gotten from the wonderful people here. I printed off sooooooooooo much to send to her. It ended up being about 2 inches thick. I read through everything that I'd printed.. and I highlighted specific things that I thought would grab their attention and made my little notes for her. During this whole time, we were still having small conversations about it here and there. I would tell her what I'd read that day and that I really thought it was something they needed to read. I went at it from every angle.. from looking like daddy, to religion, to the HIV and UTI myths, the possible issues with breastfeeding, etc. I wanted to leave no stone left unturned.

Not ONCE did I suspect what she'd do with the information when she got it. She never called me to say she gotten it like she said that she would.. she sent me a letter. In the letter, she said that as she thumbed through the top papers, her heart started racing, and she proceeded to throw it all into the trash!! She also said that she was sorry, but she KNEW the whole time that we were discussing it that she had no intention of reading anything I'd sent. She didn't WANT to know about it and still planned to circumcise him. She just didn't want to tell me. I poured my heart and soul into it for that baby boy and she didn't care.. it just went into the *trash*. She lied to me for months.. and it absolutely broke my heart.

I called her to let her know I'd gotten her letter.. I bawled my head off. I told her that I would call her again once I calmed down. That never happened.. so, I did the same thing she did. I wrote her a totally heartfelt letter, and included a tiny bit of information about circumcision and the only remotely acceptable forms of pain relief if they did go through with it. I asked for her to call me when she was ready.. I left it up to her whether we spoke again. She never called. We haven't spoken since.

I assume she's had the little guy.. she was due last month. Considering she hasn't called me... I can only assume the worst.







I haven't decided yet if I want to call and congratulate her. I just don't know..

Oh wow, this got long. I'm sorry!


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## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

Quote:

Have you ever ended or severely halted any relationship with someone after they put their son through circumcision? I'm talking specifically about those who still have their son circumicised even after you've provided sufficient information against the surgery. (I don't want this discussion to include how you feel about people you've met after they've had their son cut).
Yep. She knew everything we know here and in the end her thought was "well I think it's better cut and besides, he can always restore so it's all good".


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## hattifattener (Jan 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AntoninBeGonin* 
Yes, that's it! You seem pro-circ to me because you aren't actively bashing it like I'm used to reading on this forum. This is case against circumcision, so there is no need to tread lightly here







. I'm so used to people being loudly, unapologetically, and strongly anti-circ that when I read comments made in a more neutral fashion (such as yours) they worry me.


Forgive me for my off-topicness, but this is the first time I've heard someone acknowledge this phenomenon, and I had to jump in! I think a lot of genuine anti-circ mamas like me don't bother posting here because they know that they'll be treated with deep suspicion unless they include a small anti-circ diatribe in each post. I don't want negative assumptions made about my views on circumcision just because I keep things short and to the point, ya know? (Maybe if I used 32 consecutive "intactivist" smilies as my signature, I'd be off the hook?







)

Ok. Digression over.


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## elanorh (Feb 1, 2006)

I don't know what I'd do.

I was of the "not for us, but it's not a big deal anyway" school of thought until after SJ was born, actually. Our Ped is strongly anti-circ, so that ratified our "why bother to circ" thought ... I didn't do a lot of research though, it just didn't make sense to us to do it.

Once I started reading here and doing research, though, I became much more informed. In the meantime, a dear friend has had three sons. The first two were born before I was so strongly anti-circ, and circ never came up in conversation. I guess I must confess that I was a coward, and felt uncomfortable bringing it up prior to #3's birth (and was hoping she'd have a dd anyway as she so wanted one) .... I never asked what she thought or knew about circ. And when she called me with questions about cloth diapering and mentioned her ds' circ, I felt *awful.* I let her, and him, down by not asking her anything about how she felt about circ, or sending links to her or etc. At the same time, I'm not cutting off ties with her, because it is MY fault I didn't say anything; and knowing her, I think she did it because she was 'supposed to,' without a lot of research, but believing it was for the best. Not an informed decision.

On the other hand, I have had the 'no circ' conversation with one of my sisters (who had her first bio babe this spring). They had a dd; if after our conversation, they'd had a ds and circ'd, it would have been very difficult.

I think one thing we need to always examine when these circumstances come to pass [where someone circ's despite discussing it and researching it with us] - the first question we need to ask ourselves, is what can we change about our approach? Was there something different we could have tried? Less overt? More overt? Were we too soft-spoken, or too harsh? Did we accidentally ratify some of their concerns?

There is a huge societal pressure (still) towards circ. And it's hard for some people to overcome. I think one of the things that happens is that they *choose not to believe* the factual research presented, because it contradicts the 'reality' they believe in. It's too difficult for them to question that reality and contradict it. So - are those people making a fully informed decision? [In either direction - circ or intact]

I struggle with this issue sometimes (beyond circumcision, or breastfeeding, or whatever). I was raised to be a questioner, and a noncomformist, and to research things. But I know one of my siblings would absolutely circ (and in fact did, before I knew enough to talk to her about it), because that's what everyone else does. How do we reach THOSE people? And is it wise to cut off contact with them (does that disjunction prevent us from reaching them the next time, whether we're talking global warming or circ or whatever issue?)..... At the same time, how can we maintain cordial relationships with someone who'd do something so abhorrent? It makes me sad knowing that my friend's boys are growing up circ'd, that my nephew is circ'd.


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Quote:

Have you ever ended or severely halted any relationship with someone after they put their son through circumcision? I'm talking specifically about those who still have their son circumicised even after you've provided sufficient information against the surgery. (I don't want this discussion to include how you feel about people you've met after they've had their son cut).
Yes.

I lost so sleep during "Art friend's" pregnancy. I spent so much time planting seeds took care to nurture them.

She said, "Look- I'm NOT convicted like you are..." She circ'd the first baby WITH ALL THAT KNOWLEDGE! Then the second pregnancy, a boy. I put in my effort to save him as well.

She was STUBBORN AND A WHOLE LIST OF UA VIOLATIONS, the baby got circ'd. She did it again.







I'm still fuming about it!

Not only could I NOT EVER SPEAK TO HER AGAIN, I had to switch churches because every time I see her I get angry.

Yes, I loose ALL RESPECT for those who have a facination with their ds's sex organs.

To the person (~EM~?) who got defensive about the comment of putting meds on bare glans as being sexual... Yeah, rubbing a boys glans is like rubbing a girls clitoris. Its sexual & VERY GROSS when its on a child! On an intact baby, if they need meds on their genitals, its the fenar band, rigid band (tip of foreskin) is where the meds are applied, not the glans.


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## tex.mom (Jun 30, 2006)

I'm glad this thread was started b/c my dh thinks I'm crazy but I've been wringing my hands over potentially losing a lifelong friend over this same reason. Well, this, and every other one. She is only even ttc right now but suddenly has become adament about wanting to make all the wrong decisions in spite of the fact that I _know_ she knows better. She has declared that she will circ a boy, wants a hospital birth, refuses to even hire a doula (but claims she's going to "try" to go natural), will never co-sleep, etc. etc. It's like she has become militant anti-NF. I don't know why because her mom is like the opposite. And she puts it all on her dh, but I've actually heard him (before she cuts him off) try to say, "well, maybe we should consider..." NO, she is not having it. I guess I can't help taking it personally.


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## ~Em~ (Oct 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fruitful womb* 
To the person (~EM~?) who got defensive about the comment of putting meds on bare glans as being sexual... Yeah, rubbing a boys glans is like rubbing a girls clitoris. Its sexual & VERY GROSS when its on a child! On an intact baby, if they need meds on their genitals, its the fenar band, rigid band (tip of foreskin) is where the meds are applied, not the glans.

I'm just saying health problems can pop up anywhere on *any* infant and if they do they need to be treated - I don't consider that _sexual_ in nature. If poop gets on a baby girls clitoris, it needs to be carefully wiped off - it's just taking care of the baby. Yes you have to touch her sexual parts, but it's for a _nonsexual purpose_. I don't consider it gross, either - it would be nice if infants came as self-cleaning, but they just don't.

As stated, my older son had an MRSA sore on the very tip of his penis (actually around the urethral opening) - applying the ointment wasn't sexual or optional - it just had to be done. The infection may have been a little gross, I grant you, but medicating it certainly wasn't and I definitely didn't consider it sexual. Same with the persistant YI on the younger boy - it was more base of the penis and underside, but it had to be treated and that was that. Neither infection was foreskin-related, but still penis-related and had the problem been with their foreskins or any other part of them, I wouldn't consider that sexual in nature either.

I don't consider my opinion defensive, either - I just find it very odd that anyone would consider putting meds on a baby (circ'd or not) or otherwise touching a baby's genitals to care for the infant infant sexual in nature.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Em~* 
You are totally entitled to your circing opinion, obviously - I'm not questioning that.

However, penises get infected - circ'd ones, intact ones - they can ALL get infected and it can affect any part of the penis. It's happened to us and I've had to intensely medicate my infant son's red, raw little penis - it was actually bleeding around the base and _entire_ underside due to a severe YI. You make it sound like putting meds on a penis is _sexual_ in any way and I take issue with that. It's no more sexual than careful washing is - it's medication, plain and simple, even if you do not agree with the reason behind the need for the meds, which I completely respect.

I also agree that your sister's reasoning is quite disturbing, but I'm _hoping_ the comment was said in a moment of intense stress or emotional confusion and she didn't really mean it the way you perceived it.

I assume your son is cut because with intact boy you should NEVER retract in order to put meds (you put them over the foreskin).


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## SarahGuinn (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yulia_R* 
I assume your son is cut because with intact boy you should NEVER retract in order to put meds (you put them over the foreskin).

This isn't true.

Both of my sons are intact and I was required to expose the urethra of my youngest for a antibiotic ointment.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SarahGuinn* 
This isn't true.

Both of my sons are intact and I was required to expose the urethra of my youngest for a antibiotic ointment.

SarahGuinn, I'm sorry to say but you were given a bad advice. Foreskin should NOT be retracted, especially when there is infection going on.


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## ~Em~ (Oct 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yulia_R* 
I assume your son is cut because with intact boy you should NEVER retract in order to put meds (you put them over the foreskin).

No - the meds were put at the base of the penis of one and the tip of the other (where the pee comes out, as stated) - there was no retraction of anything going on and wouldn't have been, regardless of the cut/uncut state of the penis.

Besides which, when you are dealing with MRSA, the rules change - it can cause permanent disfiguring damage or even death if not treated adequately.

DS2 had a "hidden" penis since he was so frickin' chunky, so he got infections _around the outside_ of his penis easily, no matter how clean he was kept - the meds were for the base and underside/exterior only. The hidden-ness has since resolved itself, and he no longer is prone to such infections, thankfully.

_My point was only that treating the medical conditions of sexual organs is not a sexual task, it's just a parenting task - that's all._


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Em~* 
As stated, my older son had an MRSA sore on the very tip of his penis (actually around the urethral opening) - applying the ointment wasn't sexual or optional - it just had to be done.

Circ'd infant have much higher chance of getting MRSA in the hospital, by the way. Marilyn Milos, RN (founder of nocirc) told me that circ'd boys are actually at 12 times greater risk of contracting MRSA vs. intact ones.


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## ~Em~ (Oct 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yulia_R* 
Circ'd infant have much higher chance of getting MRSA in the hospital, by the way. Marilyn Milos, RN (founder of nocirc) told me that circ'd boys are actually at 12 times greater risk of contracting MRSA vs. intact ones.

That may very well be true, just as I assume c-s mommies are more likely to contract it than vaginal births (I have no data - that's a guess). I _believe_ they both got the infection from me, however. I got it in the hospital. My older son was 3 when he contracted it from me - he also had boils on his backside and legs that had to be lanced and drained. It was a very unfortunate and unpleasant experience for all of us.


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Em~* 
I'm just saying health problems can pop up anywhere on *any* infant and if they do they need to be treated - I don't consider that _sexual_ in nature. If poop gets on a baby girls clitoris, it needs to be carefully wiped off - it's just taking care of the baby. Yes you have to touch her sexual parts, but it's for a _nonsexual purpose_. I don't consider it gross, either - it would be nice if infants came as self-cleaning, but they just don't.

As stated, my older son had an MRSA sore on the very tip of his penis (actually around the urethral opening) - applying the ointment wasn't sexual or optional - it just had to be done. The infection may have been a little gross, I grant you, but medicating it certainly wasn't and I definitely didn't consider it sexual. Same with the persistant YI on the younger boy - it was more base of the penis and underside, but it had to be treated and that was that. Neither infection was foreskin-related, but still penis-related and had the problem been with their foreskins or any other part of them, I wouldn't consider that sexual in nature either.

I don't consider my opinion defensive, either - I just find it very odd that anyone would consider putting meds on a baby (circ'd or not) or otherwise touching a baby's genitals to care for the infant infant sexual in nature.

Interesting.

I have a few questions if you don't mind.

1. Is your ds circ'd? Loose circ'd?
The foreskin on an infant is self cleaning. Nature designed it that way. This is the reason we don't retract. I can see an Adult with a retractable foreskin applying meds on the glans just as a women would insert meds such as monistat into her vagiana, but not children.

2. Are you from the US?

As with Sara, Are you guys retracting your infants?

I just don't get how MRSA can get on the urethra unless you're forcefully retracting the babe's foreskin. Otherwise, when respected, it does a fair job of protecting the meatal opening.

Enlighten me.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Em~* 
I just find it very odd that anyone would consider putting meds on a baby (circ'd or not) or otherwise touching a baby's genitals to care for the infant infant sexual in nature.

Because she would not have needed to rub her son's glans if she had not circumcised him to begin with. Like I said, there is a difference between a boy acquiring an infection and needing treatment, and the parents themselves choosing to cause the problem that requires them to handle their son's privates. Huge difference IMO.

Yes, I have gently used a washrag to wipe breastfed poop from between my daughter's inner labia. But, once again, there is a gigantic difference between someone wiping their daughter's clitoris one time with a washrag to remove some poop, and them hurting her genitals on purpose and then rubbing cream all over her clitoris.


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## tex.mom (Jun 30, 2006)

Circumcision Increases MRSA Risk
http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...mrsa_risk.html

Just because I thought it was interesting.

However, increased risk doesn't = only risk. Personally if I was dealing with something this serious, I'd put the meds where they needed to go.

But as the OP said, rubbing stuff all over just for the h*** of it is a different story, and isn't that just what it's for if one chooses to circ? I'm a little confused as to why this was even being debated here.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Em~* 
That may very well be true, just as I assume c-s mommies are more likely to contract it than vaginal births (I have no data - that's a guess). I _believe_ they both got the infection from me, however. I got it in the hospital. My older son was 3 when he contracted it from me - he also had boils on his backside and legs that had to be lanced and drained. It was a very unfortunate and unpleasant experience for all of us.









Aw, that sucks







. Poor little guy.


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Em~* 
That may very well be true, just as I assume c-s mommies are more likely to contract it than vaginal births (I have no data - that's a guess). I _believe_ they both got the infection from me, however. I got it in the hospital. My older son was 3 when he contracted it from me - he also had boils on his backside and legs that had to be lanced and drained. It was a very unfortunate and unpleasant experience for all of us.

















I'm so sorry to hear that. Hope everything is all better now, or he gets better soon.


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## ~Em~ (Oct 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fruitful womb* 
Interesting.

I have a few questions if you don't mind.

1. Is your ds circ'd? Loose circ'd?
The foreskin on an infant is self cleaning. Nature designed it that way. This is the reason we don't retract. I can see an Adult with a retractable foreskin applying meds on the glans just as a women would insert meds such as monistat into her vagiana, but not children.

2. Are you from the US?

As with Sara, Are you guys retracting your infants?

I just don't get how MRSA can get on the urethra unless you're forcefully retracting the babe's foreskin. Otherwise, when respected, it does a fair job of protecting the meatal openin.g.

Enlighten me.

I am in the US.

I posted a bit more on the MRSA before, but it can get anywhere - it can be internal or external, localized or systemic. Getting it again scares the #$%@ out of me, to be honest - I was in the hospital last week for a kidney stone and a c-s later this week and I can't say it doesn't worry me significantly.

My kids are circ'd and loose circed. I do regret it, _but I cannot change it._ I do not wish to debate the quality of my decision at the time. My change in opinion is why I am more tolerant of others - because I know _opinions can change._ I have never been pro-circ, but just didn't have enough of an opinion to object before. I have a different opinion now. You can flame, if you wish, but it will have no effect on my current thoughts.

The infections I described existed independent of whether the child in question was circ'd which is why I used them in my examples.


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## SarahGuinn (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yulia_R* 
SarahGuinn, I'm sorry to say but you were given a bad advice. Foreskin should NOT be retracted, especially when there is infection going on.

I was not given bad advice or naive or ignorant. His foreskin was already self retracted enough to expose his urethra, he's three and a half, and the cream did need to be applied beneath the mountain of foreskin this kid has. I had to be the one to pull it back (minimally and gently,) even if he had previously gotten it to that point himself.


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## ~Em~ (Oct 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AntoninBeGonin* 
But, once again, there is a gigantic difference between someone wiping their daughter's clitoris one time with a washrag to remove some poop, and them hurting her genitals on purpose and then rubbing cream all over her clitoris.

THIS, I understand and agree with, though I don't see it as sexual. I can see why you'd be angry about it.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Em~* 
I am in the US.

I posted a bit more on the MRSA before, but it can get anywhere - it can be internal or external, localized or systemic. Getting it again scares the #$%@ out of me, to be honest - I was in the hospital last week for a kidney stone and a c-s later this week and I can't say it doesn't worry me significantly.

My kids are circ'd and loose circed. I do regret it, _but I cannot change it._ I do not wish to debate the quality of my decision at the time. My change in opinion is why I am more tolerant of others - because I know _opinions can change._ I have never been pro-circ, but just didn't have enough of an opinion to object before. I have a different opinion now. You can flame, if you wish, but it will have no effect on my current thoughts.

The infections I described existed independent of whether the child in question was circ'd which is why I used them in my examples.

No one is going to flame you







. But now your point of view makes a lot more sense. There are quite a few members on here who have one or more sons circumcised. Have you read the "Circumcised and regret it" sticky at the top?

I think a lot of the confusion is you were talking about MRSA getting on an infant's glans (regardless if they are intact or circ'd) and some people pointing out that it's pretty much impossible for an intact infant to have a problem with his glans because it's not only covered by the foreskin, the foreskin is actually adhered to the glans like a fingernail to a finger. Getting MRSA under the foreskin would be like getting MRSA deep under a fingernail. I'm not saying either are impossible, but both fingernails and foreskins offer a good deal of protection against infection.









Good luck with your cesarean section later this week. I wish you a speedy recovery







.


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## ~Em~ (Oct 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AntoninBeGonin* 
Getting MRSA under the foreskin would be like getting MRSA deep under a fingernail. I'm not saying either are impossible, but both fingernails and foreskins offer a good deal of protection against infection.









Thank you.

I agree.

I was in the hospital last time for almost 3w (most of that without my newborn, which was very traumatic) due to an unknown generalized infection - it was not localized to the c/s wound or uterine area. I wonder now if was MRSA all along, even though it took months before it showed up on either of the kids. I'll never know, though.

I think I have now hijacked this thread.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Em~* 
Thank you.

I agree.

I was in the hospital last time for almost 3w (most of that without my newborn, which was very traumatic) due to an unknown generalized infection - it was not localized to the c/s wound or uterine area. I wonder now if was MRSA all along, even though it took months before it showed up on either of the kids. I'll never know, though.

I think I have now hijacked this thread.









Aww, don't worry, I'm sure someone will hijack it right back. That's the fun of threads







.


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Em~* 
I am in the US.

I posted a bit more on the MRSA before, but it can get anywhere - it can be internal or external, localized or systemic. Getting it again scares the #$%@ out of me, to be honest - I was in the hospital last week for a kidney stone and a c-s later this week and I can't say it doesn't worry me significantly.

My kids are circ'd and loose circed. I do regret it, _but I cannot change it._ I do not wish to debate the quality of my decision at the time. My change in opinion is why I am more tolerant of others - because I know _opinions can change._ I have never been pro-circ, but just didn't have enough of an opinion to object before. I have a different opinion now. You can flame, if you wish, but it will have no effect on my current thoughts.

The infections I described existed independent of whether the child in question was circ'd which is why I used them in my examples.

I will not flame you.









Thank you for sharing your story. I know that must've been hard. I did so in another thread about my ds3 contractng oral herpes on his testicles. Thats so embarassing. But I do think it would've been way worse if the glans were exposed.

So, just to be sure...

You'll leve future ds's intact right???

You really changed my thinking as well. I can see how you think its not sexual.

Its really about persepective. I guess.

I rarely see the glans on intact child. I think of them as a very private matter. My dh will hide his glans with his restored skin and when I do see them, (forgive me) it sends a visual sexual response in me. I hope you understand when I say rubbing glans seem sexual to me. But I do understand what you mean. If it has to be done, then it has to be done. It seems strange to do it on an intact baby tho. Well, 4% are retracable. Still, there really is no need to retract an intact infant.

Sorry rambling. I'll stop here.


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## ~Em~ (Oct 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fruitful womb* 
I will not flame you.









Thank you for sharing your story. I know that must've been hard. I did so in another thread about my ds3 contractng oral herpes on his testicles. Thats so embarassing. But I do think it would've been way worse if the glans were exposed.

So, just to be sure...

You'll leve future ds's intact right???

I have a pretty thick hide anyway, lol.

This Baby 3 is a girl and I *think* the last, so it's a nonissue, but with _hypothetical_ Baby Boy 4 (4?!? oh, that sounds scary, lol!), yes.

DS2 wasn't as affected by the MRSA, but he did get a nasty infection on his scrotum - I still worry about longterm effects, even though the pedi assures that we got it while it was still just on the skin. Amazing (and scary) how two perfectly healthy kids can be so easily affected by something that was previously relegated primarily to the infirm or otherwise immune-challenged.


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## MommaLauraRN (May 14, 2007)

I would have a hard time maintaining the same relationship if someone circ'd after I felt they were thoroughly educated. With my first SIL, I was still new to being anti-circ. My first intact son was just one when SIL had her DS. All I did was remind her that we didn't circ and that after my DH (her brother) and I read a lot about it, we found that there was no reason to do it. I knew she trusted her doctor a lot and I encouraged her to ask him questions about it so they felt they had all the information. (I know her doctor and know that he is anti-circ and doesn't do them...only one doc in their 4 MD practice does actually). I guess I was hoping that he would "take it from there" and be the voice of reason to her. I knew she was planning on FF even though she knew I breastfed. (She thought BF was "icky") She also went back to work by choice, not because they needed to financially, when her son was just 5 weeks old, because she couldn't tolerate being "stuck in the house" with a newborn 24/7. She tried to play the victim when her son had to try formula after formula because he just couldn't tolerate it well and would say stuff about she hated how he cried every time he peed for the first week because his circumcision hurt. I literally had to bite my tongue. She had a girl the second time who once again had the same issues with formula...So our parenting styles are polar opposites. DH and I have distanced ourselves from her, we see them for the kids' birthday parties and Christmas but that's really it. DH's other sister is a lot more like me. She wants to BF because she saw all the issues her sister's two kids had. Plus her DH really wants her to BF because it's just so much healthier. She's taking a birthing class with a doula and she wants to have minimal birth intervention, going to cloth diaper etc. Her and her DH are more into natural family living type stuff...She's due with a girl in a few weeks. I've given her a ton of info about circ (just in case she ends up with a surprise boy and for future kids!) She hasn't ever come and out and told me that she won't circ, so I still feel like I have some work to do with her on that issue. If she did, it would absolutely devastate me, because I feel like she has been educated. I couldn't pretend to be okay with it...and I'm sure we'd distance ourselves from DH's family even more. Sometimes I think that's what you have to do to protect your own heart.

And as far as that comment about the baby having to pay for the mom having to go through a C-Section...I feel the opposite...when moms who insist of having a circ done end up with a c-section, i just don't feel so bad that they didn't have the natual birth they wanted...If their going to inflict a permanent unnatural wound and scar on their baby, then maybe they should have one too. (I'm referring specifically to the people who have the birth plan that reads no intervention, no artificial anything, no episiotomy...but want a circ...the "don't cut me, cut my baby" birth plans)


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## MommaLauraRN (May 14, 2007)

Geez...I started writing my reply which made sense at the time, stopped to NAK and look what I missed...LOL! Maybe I hijacked it back!


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yulia_R* 
I feel the exact same way! I would not be able to ever respect her again.

I agree. I don't have any experiences yet with people I know circing mostly b/c everyone I know has girls. But if one of my friends did that knowingly, I couldn't talk to them again.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Fortunately I have never had to. I would though if it came down to that.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Em~* 
I also agree that your sister's reasoning is quite disturbing, but I'm _hoping_ the comment was said in a moment of intense stress or emotional confusion and she didn't really mean it the way you perceived it.

I was thinking the same thing.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Em~* 
If by "pro-circ" you mean more tolerant of everyone, then yes, you are probably right. I try to be tolerant of everyone (regardless of the issue - it could be BF/FF or whatever) in the hopes that gentle persuasion will change their opinions because in my experience being shunned or lectured or intimidated has the direct opposite effect. By no means do I mean to dismiss others' feelings her as I understand where you are coming from. I just feel that the "cure" is more effectively achieved by a different set of tools than some here.

I feel this way too. Just because we won't disown a sister or friend for circing doesn't mean we are pro-circ. I am staunchly anti-circ actually.

I would be heartbroken if my sibling or dear friend ended our relationship because I didn't vax and she thought that was neglectful. You could apply the same to women who choose to extended breastfeed, homeschool, family bed. People can make arguments that a number of things that are done by mainstream or alternative moms - that it is neglectful, abusive, etc. Especially because NFL hasn't become common, I think it is too harsh to end important relationships when someone makes a personal decision based on their doctor's advice, their family's advice, what they've read and researched. I completely agree that circing is wrong, and I wish it wasn't done. I am on board with educating our friends and family and anyone else we can reach. I can't go along with ending relationships over a parenting decision, no matter how it may break my heart. That also removes you from your new nephew's life; is that worth it? You aren't changing the fact that he was circed by refusing to speak to his parents anymore.


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## tex.mom (Jun 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
I can't go along with ending relationships over a parenting decision, no matter how it may break my heart.

I wish I could be more like this, but I'm not. I guess my ways just aren't gentle enough, because when I'm really annoyed and/or disgusted with someone it just stays at the front of my mind when I'm around them, I say too much and wind up labeled the know-it-all pushy b***h. I hate coming off that way, esp. since it bothers, so if I can't be truly civil, it's better for everyone for me just to avoid the situation altogether.

But that's me and I do wish I could handle it differently. On the one hand I am very understanding of people who I feel get really bad advice and have little personal ground to stand on, but on the other hand I lose it with those who seem to have all the info and just fly in the face of logic. Those are my two extremes, both of which I take a lot of criticism for.


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## christifav (Nov 10, 2005)

I would not be able to remain friends with someone who circ'd despite me giving them info. I have a girlfriend that never told me one way or the other and I prefer to keep it that way b/c I don't want to know if they did it or not.

I lost another friend b/c she told me in a very stern and awful way that she didn't care one bit about the info I gave her, her DH was a premature ejaculator and "can't imagine being any more sensitive" so she would ABSOLUTELY cut her son. So far she's only had a daughter, but I did not have the energy to continue a relationship with this woman. And yes, I tried everything to convince her that intact men have MORE control, not less, but to no avail. She was molested as a kid and I suspect she has power issues over males. If she got therapy it would probably help her son out.

Switching lanes here...I firmly believe that medicalized birth and the disempowerment of women is a HUGE contributor to RIC.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

The difference between circumcision and parenting practices like breastfeeding, family bed, and homeschooling is that circumcision only affects one person--the boy--and it only affects him negatively, whereas the other choices affect the whole family, usually positively.

And the difference between circumcision and vaccination is that no competent first world medical association advices circumcision, but they do advise vaccinations. To be honest, we delay vax. I wish there was no need to make a decision about vaccinating because there is so much unhelpful and conflicting information about it.


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
I feel this way too. Just because we won't disown a sister or friend for circing doesn't mean we are pro-circ. I am staunchly anti-circ actually.

I would be heartbroken if my sibling or dear friend ended our relationship because I didn't vax and she thought that was neglectful. You could apply the same to women who choose to extended breastfeed, homeschool, family bed. People can make arguments that a number of things that are done by mainstream or alternative moms - that it is neglectful, abusive, etc. Especially because NFL hasn't become common, I think it is too harsh to end important relationships when someone makes a personal decision based on their doctor's advice, their family's advice, what they've read and researched. I completely agree that circing is wrong, and I wish it wasn't done. I am on board with educating our friends and family and anyone else we can reach. I can't go along with ending relationships over a parenting decision, no matter how it may break my heart. That also removes you from your new nephew's life; is that worth it? You aren't changing the fact that he was circed by refusing to speak to his parents anymore.

I feel the same way. My sister ended up circing my nephew. I could have refused to speak to her, etc., but instead, I wanted to remain in my nephew's (and niece's) life. In time, I may be able to convince her to not circ if she ever has another son, or convince her children not to circ when they have children or even turn into an intactivist, even though she circed her son, like me. Circing my nephew was wrong, but it doesn't mean she will always be like that. Or at least I hope not. But the only way I'd feel good about it would to continue to set a good example, so to speak. And show my AP parenting towards her children as well.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

your sister is a sadist. i'm sorry. the callousness of how she handled that poor child's penis??? malicious and disturbing. i would cut her out of my life in about the same quick raw way she chose to cut your nephew.
i'm so sickened i want to cry.
it's not only about the circ-ing it's about the intent.


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## Organicavocado (Mar 15, 2006)

I have a hard time maintaining a relationship with someone who has circ'ed.

I fear so often that my best friend will have a boy and won't listen to me. We've talked about it briefly, when we were teenagers, and she seemed pretty convinced that she would circ. Luckily her first was a girl. I don't know how I would react if it was her.

Other than that, anyone else is usually a swift dismissal. Not worth my emotional investment. Not because I want to spite them and deprive them from my wonderful company (LOL) but because I just can't look at them, or their babies, the same way ever again.


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## ferretfan (Nov 13, 2005)

a casual aquaintance of mine had her 2yo son circ'd (he was born in germany and the docs wouldnt do it there). that boy suffered for months. i cant be her friend any longer









a very good friend of mine is expecting in oct (as am i), she wont find out the gender before the birth. today i emailed her a bunch of links from here regarding circ. we've already spoken about it and her husband wants the child circ'd because he recalls boys at his school being teased for being intact. i hope once she reads the material i sent she will realize that it is never ok to circ a healthy penis. i am afraid though. i am afraid that it will damage our friendship if she decided to circ.


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## Night_Nurse (Nov 23, 2007)

I just edited out numerous lines of details. The details of why simply aren't important.

Yes, I have ended a family relationship over circ after they had tons of info from me. I wouldn't hesitate to make the same decision again under the same circumstances with those people.
I make no apologies for that.
I have no problem cutting ties with family members I feel are toxic in anyway. To me, family is something you have no choice with because you're born into it. I love my family. But I don't have to "like" them, nor do I have to associate with them.

I am about to begin the process of ending a friendship over it, as well. I don't feel ready to make that first step or even discuss it here, as I'm feeling a tad conflicted and quite sad.
But I feel circumcision is in the same category as abuse. I wouldn't continue a friendship with someone who purposefully injured her child. I question who and what type of person this woman is. Is odd how you can think you know someone for so long, only to realize you don't know them at all...
But it is difficult because while I stated in the first paragraph my views on family, I have super-strong ties to my friends. To me, my friends are my family that I _chose_.
The whole thing just breaks my heart.


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

my sister is pregnant with a boy, and her husband is intact-there's no ? their son will be too, thank goodness.. i can't imagine going thru what you have been thru with your sis. how FRUSTRATING. i have to agree with you, that what she did was abuse, because she KNEW BETTER and did it anyway.
as far as relationships go, it depends. parenting is a fundamental kind of thing. people tend to believe very strongly in Thier Way. It's very difficult to remain friends when you strongly differ.

i have friends who have much older kids that they parented in a very mainstream kind of fashion that now wish they'd done it differently, and our friendships are great. i have also had to part ways with a couple of very wonderful ladies who i liked as women, but could not stomach as mamas-especially since our kids were around one another. my dd doesnt need to see harsh discipline in action like she was seeing with them. mistreatment of a child is a dealbreaker for me.


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## snangel (Nov 27, 2006)

Yes. I ended a life long friendship. She knew and still did it. it would be the same as if she beat her kids or any other form of abuse. if you know better and still do it, I am done, and will tell them as much. I don't condone child abuse.


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## bluetoes (May 12, 2007)

I worry about this with a friend of mine should she get preg. with a boy. I wonder if there is a 'honey not vinegar' way of letting her know exactly how I feel?


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AntoninBeGonin* 
The difference between circumcision and parenting practices like breastfeeding, family bed, and homeschooling is that circumcision only affects one person--the boy--and it only affects him negatively, whereas the other choices affect the whole family, usually positively.

I agree. I think there is a huge difference between altering a child's genitalia and the other things listed. MGM will never be just another parenting decision in my eyes and I wish it wasn't considered as such to anyone.


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## My*Scorpio (Aug 15, 2006)

It would be hard for me to respect someone who did that, because to me it's a human rights issue, not a parenting issue.

It seems that many of the mommas with young children I know who did circ where under a lot of pressure from their partners. I wish there was a way to get through to these men.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LavenderMae* 
I think there is a huge difference between altering a child's genitalia and the other things listed.

This was in reference to my bringing up extended nursing, family bed, anti vax. I brought those up as examples of things that are often considered positive on MDC but mainstream parents may call them neglectful or even abusive. They could find articles to support those claims. We could find other articles to support our side.

Your sister or best friend comes to you with articles or books or her deeply held belief that extended nursing or family bed is akin to sexual abuse. She begs you to stop. She can't look at you the same anymore. She cuts ties with you as she just can't stand by while you hurt your child. You strongly disagree but she won't budge. How is that different from someone cutting their sister or best friend out of their life for circing?

I happen to agree with you that circing is wrong. I just don't think cutting ties serves any purpose. What does it solve? How does it improve the circ/intact percentages? When your nephew comes to you as an adult, wanting to know where you were when he was playing his first tee ball game, when he had the lead in the school play, the night he graduated - what is the answer? Your parents had you circed, so I cut your family out of my life? There are moms here on MDC who circed and deeply regret it. Do they deserve to keep their friends and family?

I didn't baptize my kids. My MIL is a STAUNCH Catholic. She prays every day that we'll fix this error. She believes their eternal souls are in jeopardy. There have been discussions about it over the years. But she didn't cut us out of her life.

If it is just some woman who goes to your grocery store, whatever. But if it is your sister, your dear friend, someone close to you? Continuing a relationship doesn't mean you agree that circing their son is ok. It means caring enough about that person to forgive them their mistakes, even if they don't yet realize it was one.


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## Mandynee22 (Nov 20, 2006)

I haven't cut off a friendship because of that (haven't had any friends w nb boys) but I would- be it my family or not.
I don't blame you


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Kirsten, if someone felt that strongly about me bf'ing or not vaxing ect then it would be best we didn't have a relationship. I wouldn't want a relationship with someone who thought me bf'ing my toddler ect was sexual abuse or me not vaxing was a death sentence for my children ect.
None of those things remove a healthy and functional body part like circumcision does and that's just in another league all together imo. I doubt many would put FGM in tha same category as those things, would you?


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LavenderMae* 
I doubt many would put FGM in tha same category as those things, would you?

There in lies the rub...would you cut off a friendship with someone who had their daughter mutilated?

I sure would...same with a boy...human rights are human rights...mutilation is mutilation...I could not remain in a relationship with someone who's ethics were so so so far from mine.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LavenderMae* 
Kirsten, if someone felt that strongly about me bf'ing or not vaxing ect then it would be best we didn't have a relationship. I wouldn't want a relationship with someone who thought me bf'ing my toddler ect was sexual abuse or me not vaxing was a death sentence for my children ect.
None of those things remove a healthy and functional body part like circumcision does and that's just in another league all together imo. I doubt many would put FGM in tha same category as those things, would you?

Exactly. Also, so far all of the anti-extended breastfeeding, anti-cosleeping pieces I've read have been emotional "You're just creepy!" type opinion pieces, usually by people who have never slept next to their babies in their lives.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fyrestorm* 
There in lies the rub...would you cut off a friendship with someone who had their daughter mutilated?

I sure would...same with a boy...human rights are human rights...mutilation is mutilation...I could not remain in a relationship with someone who's ethics were so so so far from mine.

Again, exactly.


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## tex.mom (Jun 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
I didn't baptize my kids. My MIL is a STAUNCH Catholic. She prays every day that we'll fix this error. She believes their eternal souls are in jeopardy. There have been discussions about it over the years. But she didn't cut us out of her life.

Yes but as long as your kids are living you've created a situation that she can't, from her moral perspective, remove herself from. This is not a "done deal" because she can still be pivotal in saving your children's souls as far as she can see. The question of whether she would be able to forgive you would only follow a tragedy.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

My relationship with my brother and SIL just isn't the same since they cut their son (after I gave them lots of info). I'm so sorry for your precious nephew.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

I agree with PPs that if a body part needs to be cleaned or receive medical attention, then that's what it is- cleaning or medical attention, not sexual abuse. And no, I'm not saying what she did was right or acceptable behavior. I just think that's an awfully big accusation to throw around.

That said... to the OP- *if you honestly believe that this is sexual abuse, have you called the authorities?* In not, then you could and SHOULD be prosecuted along with your sister for standing by and allowing the sexual abuse to continue.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
I agree with PPs that if a body part needs to be cleaned or receive medical attention, then that's what it is- cleaning or medical attention, not sexual abuse. And no, I'm not saying what she did was right or acceptable behavior. I just think that's an awfully big accusation to throw around.

That said... to the OP- *if you honestly believe that this is sexual abuse, have you called the authorities?* In not, then you could and SHOULD be prosecuted along with your sister for standing by and allowing the sexual abuse to continue.

Since we all know circumcising boys (not girls of course) is legal and after care is necessary it doesn't really matter legally speaking if the op or anyone else thinks it's sexual abuse. She could notify the authorities but we all know it would do no good and at best she'd just be laughed at.
Suggesting she is contributing or allowing the abuse is beyond offensive because you know she can't legally do anything.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LavenderMae* 
Since we all know circumcising boys (not girls of course) is legal and after care is necessary it doesn't really matter legally speaking if the op or anyone else thinks it's sexual abuse. She could notify the authorities but we all know it would do no good and at best she'd just be laughed at.
Suggesting she is contributing or allowing the abuse is beyond offensive because you know she can't legally do anything.

I'm not saying that she should go complain to the legal system about her nephew getting circed and treated... that's ridiculous.

BUT if she believes that her sister was manipulating her son's glans in a sexual way, then she has a duty to report that. If she doesn't think her sister was acting in a sexual manner toward her son, then she shouldn't be tossing around the phrase "sexual abuse" so lightly when it is a VERY serious matter.

Just my opinion.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
This was in reference to my bringing up extended nursing, family bed, anti vax. I brought those up as examples of things that are often considered positive on MDC but mainstream parents may call them neglectful or even abusive. They could find articles to support those claims. We could find other articles to support our side.

Your sister or best friend comes to you with articles or books or her deeply held belief that extended nursing or family bed is akin to sexual abuse. She begs you to stop. She can't look at you the same anymore. She cuts ties with you as she just can't stand by while you hurt your child. You strongly disagree but she won't budge. How is that different from someone cutting their sister or best friend out of their life for circing?

I happen to agree with you that circing is wrong. I just don't think cutting ties serves any purpose. What does it solve? How does it improve the circ/intact percentages? When your nephew comes to you as an adult, wanting to know where you were when he was playing his first tee ball game, when he had the lead in the school play, the night he graduated - what is the answer? Your parents had you circed, so I cut your family out of my life? There are moms here on MDC who circed and deeply regret it. Do they deserve to keep their friends and family?

I didn't baptize my kids. My MIL is a STAUNCH Catholic. She prays every day that we'll fix this error. She believes their eternal souls are in jeopardy. There have been discussions about it over the years. But she didn't cut us out of her life.

If it is just some woman who goes to your grocery store, whatever. But if it is your sister, your dear friend, someone close to you? Continuing a relationship doesn't mean you agree that circing their son is ok. It means caring enough about that person to forgive them their mistakes, even if they don't yet realize it was one.

Again, the parenting choices you spoke about, even baptism are choices (and some will value the importance of those choices more then others) but circumcision is different, it is a human rights violation, in many of the same ways female circumcision is.

Its not that I would want to cut ties with these people, but I would be so disgusted by them that, even if I tried, I would not be able to hang out with them, be close to them, or open up to them anymore.

I do agree with you though. I would try to stay connected as much as I could, I wouldn't want to deprive a child of another supportive family member because his parents made a stupid decision. I would still stay in their lives, and be there to connect to their son. But when it comes to the friendship with that family member, I would just be going through the motions, to me, my interactions with them would be empty.


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## catholic74 (May 21, 2007)

As a passionate pro-lifer, I feel this way about abortion. To me, abortion, like circumcision, is a human rights issue. Plain and simple. So it is difficult for me sometimes to feel kindly towards those who might argue with me on this point. At the same time, I would not disown or reject someone who has had an abortion nor would I refuse to be friends with someone who is pro-choice. It would be a bad representation of me and my position if I were to act badly towards someone who disagrees with me on the issue. Even further, I can not sway someone to see my side of things if I reject them or are unkind to their position. As with circumcision, I stand firmly on what I believe, yet leave the door open to dialogue and try very hard to love the person despite our differences. Education, patience and compassion are all you can give under such circumstances. It's hard, but it's necessary.

On a personal note, as one of the early posters mentioned, I've "put my head in the sand" so to speak rather than address the circumcision issue because it is a sensitive area for me. My SIL just had a baby boy and I am afraid to ask if she had him circumcized. I'd almost rather not know. I'm scared of her answer if I were to ask. I just hope and pray she didn't do it. That's all I can do. Before the baby was born, we had a few short, civil discussions about it. She knows I don't circ and that I disapprove of it and why. I just left it at that. Who knows.....


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

I thought I'd come back to this thread and mention that a large part of why I don't feel like having my sister in my life right now is that I personally spent hours over the span of her pregnancy giving her all sorts of information about circumcision and the foreskin. The fact that she chose to hurt her baby after knowing all that information just floors me. I can't think of her the same way anymore. Not right now at least. And maybe not ever.


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## klg47 (May 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AntoninBeGonin* 
In short, she's not the same person I once knew, and I don't think I'll ever feel close to her again.

Your sister's response sickened me.

I didn't end the friendship, in the sense that once I found out about the circumcision, I didn't throw them out of my house and say "that's it, don't ever contact me again". However, I did feel VERY differently toward the woman. I was sickened every time I was reminded of what she had allowed to be done to her son. We moved shortly thereafter, and I never made any effort to contact her.

If it was a family member. . . wow, that would be really hard. My sister is a 26-year old Air Force Academy graduate. She desperately wants to start a family, but will probably wait until she gets out of the Air Force in 5 years. I guess I need to start working on her now, so that I don't ever have to deal with this situation


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## mija y mijo (Dec 6, 2006)

.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
That said... to the OP- *if you honestly believe that this is sexual abuse, have you called the authorities?* In not, then you could and SHOULD be prosecuted along with your sister for standing by and allowing the sexual abuse to continue.

What the hell are you talking about?







:


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
I'm not saying that she should go complain to the legal system about her nephew getting circed and treated... that's ridiculous.

BUT if she believes that her sister was manipulating her son's glans in a sexual way, then she has a duty to report that. If she doesn't think her sister was acting in a sexual manner toward her son, then she shouldn't be tossing around the phrase "sexual abuse" so lightly when it is a VERY serious matter.

Just my opinion.

A. I'm doing my best to advocate for little boys that they get to keep their whole, normal, and healthy body they're born with. The very idea that you think I should be persecuted for that is just bewhildering. I've been fighting against circumcision since I was in my second trimester with my son in early 2004. How dare you tell me I should pay any of the price for my nephew being hurt when I spent hours pouring over several books and articles to try and help him.







:







:







:







:







:

B. I looked back through my posts in the this thread, and I do not see where I said that my sister rubbing my newborn nephew's glans is "sexual abuse", I said it sickened me because under normal circumstances there is no need for anyone to touch a newborn's glans. She was the one who caused her perfectly healthy baby to be in pain and she was the one who caused her son to need her to handle his penis.

C. I did say that circumcision is sexual abuse, but then most (if not all) of us on here feel that way. If you don't, perhaps you should re-evaluate your thoughts on RIC.

You are extremely offensive and the only reason I'm not reporting your post is because I'm not quite that angry yet.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Not trying to be offensive... merely stating my opinion, which I thought was allowed on MDC.

If I misunderstood you, then I apologize. You gave a pretty descriptive mention about her rubbing cream on her son's penis and how private that was, and then 2 sentences later said, "In my mind what she did was sexual abuse, pure and simple." I assumed those things were related, not that you were labeling circumcision as sexual abuse. I'm obviously not the only one who misunderstood, since early posts in the thread are debating whether the cream rubbing would or would not be considered sexual.

But I still think that's a pretty heavy accusation to throw at someone. What about the people that actually were sexually abused (in the 'standard' definition of the term) as children- they might be equally offended by you calling a medical procedure sexual abuse. And NO, I'm not saying that routine circumcision is ok. I just don't think that it's sexual abuse. I think that people need to be educated, which will take time. You can't expect that everyone will listen to your point of view when society as a whole (not to mention the medical profession) has been telling them the exact opposite for decades.

And just out of curiosity- what would you plan to report my post for? If I have violated any part of the UA, please let me know. I am merely stating an opinion about your post, which is the whole point of posting discussions on a discussion board.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
And just out of curiosity- what would you plan to report my post for?


Um, how about the part where you said I should be prosecuted?







It's comforting that not only do you think just because circumcision is legal, it's not abusive, but you also think people like me who call it for what it is should go to jail.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

i consider circ. sexual abuse. its a sexual organ and its abused by circ'ing. permanently.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

On the subject of sexual abuse...I think one of the saddest facts about circumcision in the USA is that the abuse doesn't stop with the surgery...caregivers are taught to push back the remaining skin for months and sometimes years after the initial circumcision to prevent adhesions. That's days and months and years of penal manipulation by the caregiver...and it's not like the child understands why.

I can't imagine a little girl having her clitoral hood manipulated for a couple years and it not having some affect on her in some way or another.....but it's so "accepted" for little boys here


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AntoninBeGonin* 
Um, how about the part where you said I should be prosecuted?







It's comforting that not only do you think just because circumcision is legal, it's not abusive, but you also think people like me who call it for what it is should go to jail.

Again... since you obviously didn't read my post, I said that I thought you were talking about the cream rubbing on the penis as sexual abuse, not the circumcision.

Even skipping that fact- how is that against UA? I'm not allowed to say that someone watching sexual abuse happen and doing nothing should be prosecuted along with the abuser?







Just because you disagree with a post, doesn't mean that it should be removed. Seriously- if you can't handle someone having a different opinion than you, you shouldn't be posting on a discussion board. That's all- my opinion. I'm done... so you can spout your anger at someone else. I wasn't trying to piss anybody off- I was just a little shocked at your OP stating that your sister had sexually abused her son. And yes, my second paragraph is completely off topic, so I have no problem with a mod asking me to remove it.

Back on topic- if you want to make a positive change in people, going around disowning people (especially family) and publicly chastising them is not the way to do it in my opinion.


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## lyttlewon (Mar 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
Not trying to be offensive... merely stating my opinion, which I thought was allowed on MDC.

If I misunderstood you, then I apologize. You gave a pretty descriptive mention about her rubbing cream on her son's penis and how private that was, and then 2 sentences later said, "In my mind what she did was sexual abuse, pure and simple." I assumed those things were related, not that you were labeling circumcision as sexual abuse. I'm obviously not the only one who misunderstood, since early posts in the thread are debating whether the cream rubbing would or would not be considered sexual.

But I still think that's a pretty heavy accusation to throw at someone. What about the people that actually were sexually abused (in the 'standard' definition of the term) as children- they might be equally offended by you calling a medical procedure sexual abuse. And NO, I'm not saying that routine circumcision is ok. I just don't think that it's sexual abuse. I think that people need to be educated, which will take time. You can't expect that everyone will listen to your point of view when society as a whole (not to mention the medical profession) has been telling them the exact opposite for decades.

And just out of curiosity- what would you plan to report my post for? If I have violated any part of the UA, please let me know. I am merely stating an opinion about your post, which is the whole point of posting discussions on a discussion board.

Most of the time circumcision is a cosmetic procedure done by ADULTS to make their infant sons penis look more sexually attractive, eventually when he is an adult. How many people say they think intact penis's are ugly or are afraid women won't find their sons sexually attractive? These are BABIES for crying out loud! No one should be concerned with the attractiveness of their infant son's penis. I had a hard time classifying it as sexual abuse at first because compared to the common definition it isn't exactly the same. It is at a minimum physical abuse that is accepted by our culture as normal.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
Again... since you obviously didn't read my post, I said that I thought you were talking about the cream rubbing on the penis as sexual abuse, not the circumcision.

Even skipping that fact- how is that against UA? I'm not allowed to say that someone watching sexual abuse happen and doing nothing should be prosecuted along with the abuser?







Just because you disagree with a post, doesn't mean that it should be removed. Seriously- if you can't handle someone having a different opinion than you, you shouldn't be posting on a discussion board. That's all- my opinion. I'm done... so you can spout your anger at someone else. I wasn't trying to piss anybody off- I was just a little shocked at your OP stating that your sister had sexually abused her son. And yes, my second paragraph is completely off topic, so I have no problem with a mod asking me to remove it.

Back on topic- if you want to make a positive change in people, going around disowning people (especially family) and publicly chastising them is not the way to do it in my opinion.


I don't go around publicly chastising people, for gods sakes! Where the hell do you come up with your crap?

I swear, I have never been as angry at anyone on this entire community as I am with you right now. This is ridiculous.

Someone please tell me how to block a user so I don't have to see any more of her posts.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AntoninBeGonin* 
I don't go around publicly chastising people, for gods sakes! Where the hell do you come up with your crap?

I didn't mean me.







I meant your sister. Wasn't that the point of the OP- to make everyone see what a horrible person your sister was, and ask if you were justified in disowning her?? Or have I completely missed the point of your thread?


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## yokosmile (Apr 22, 2007)

Quote:

Back on topic- if you want to make a positive change in people, going around disowning people (especially family) and publicly chastising them is not the way to do it in my opinion.
What do you suggest then? What does one do when a family member/friend unapologetically circs after receiving all of the information on how harmful it is?


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## purplestraws (Sep 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yokosmile* 
What do you suggest then? What does one do when a family member/friend unapologetically circs after receiving all of the information on how harmful it is?

I'm wondering the same thing?? How are we SUPPOSED to feel? What are we supposed to do? Roll over and let it die? Keep bringing it up?


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## Collinsky (Jul 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AntoninBeGonin* 
Her answer was that something had to pay for what she'd just been through.

My answer would be: it depends. And the attitude in this sentence would seal the deal for me - no way. I can't even... there are no words.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

to block: User CP ---> Buddy/ Ignore Lists---> Add New User to List


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carriebft* 
to block: User CP ---> Buddy/ Ignore Lists---> Add New User to List


Thanks, already done







.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I think the fact I was sexually abused (in the standard definition even) is one of the reasons I know with out a doubt MGM and FGM are sexual abuse. I think denial/social conditioning and a lack of understanding of the normal male genitalia (and maybe empathy for the infant boys) are the only things keeping logical people from seeing MGM as abuse.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LavenderMae* 
I think the fact I was sexually abused (in the standard definition even) is one of the reasons I know with out a doubt MGM and FGM are sexual abuse. I think denial/social conditioning and a lack of understanding of the normal male genitalia (and maybe empathy for the infant boys) are the only things keeping logical people from seeing MGM as abuse.

ITA: as a matter of fact, I think that it actually meets the definition of rape in many states, including penetration, restraint and non consent.


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## SevenVeils (Aug 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
omg i just could not be around her.

she made her little boy pay for her ignorance in having a c/s??? just fraking great. omg!!! i think i am going to be sick.

I agree completely. That is horrifying, abusive, and there is no way that I could ever speak to her again. Ever.


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## channelofpeace (Jul 14, 2005)

I don't know that i would end a relationship, but it would probably die, if that makes sense. I am sorry about your sister, Nay. If you do contact her again, keep an eye out for ppd. Sounds like she was really traumatized by her c-section and is just really out of touch with reality if it made sense to her to inflict pain on her newborn.


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## Carlin (Oct 14, 2006)

: I can't believe I'm actually daring to post in this thread, and totally off topic as well. Your sister's response about making her little boy pay for what happened to her is really strange. Is there any chance she's suffering from postpartum psychosis or post traumatic stress disorder? If not, than I think I'd do exactly what you did. If she is, than she needs to get some help before she harms her little one even more.

I've never had to make this choice, but I'm in Canada and I think circ is much less common here.

If I did find out that someone had circed I think whether or not I continued the relationship would depend on the circumstances. If I'd tried to educate them and they ignored it, as some previous posters have had happened, I don't think our relationship would survive. If they'd circed out of ignorance, I think I would do my best to educate them, in the hopes that they wouldn't harm their next son in the same way.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Well, to be perfectly honest, my sister is nearly 1,000 miles away, plus 5 years younger, plus we see many things differently (I'm atheist, she's hardcore Christian, for example). We don't talk that often. Her pregnancy was doing it's part to bring us closer together, but it was also letting me see a side of her that I hadn't noticed before. As you can guess, that side wasn't entirely positive.

I doubt I'll have any reason to talk to her before Labor Day, when I'll probably fly home to see my entire family. If she had not circumcised, then perhaps our relationship would have continued to improve. But as things stand now, we are just two very different people.


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## NamastePlatypus (Jan 22, 2007)

I had a friend, a neighbor, who has two cut boys and she was due three weeks before me. Even before she was pregnant she asked about e and i laid it all out for her and when she found out she was having a boy she and her husband wanted all kinds of info and I thought that i got them on the right track, well when she went into have him i didn't hear from her so I Knew what had happened. She won't change him in front of me and i am glad it makes me so sick. She said that in the end that they had to do it because they didn't want the boys to think they had played favortites and they all went through it and are fine so he should too







uke:
We are no longer talking







:


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