# 'Natural' night weaning?



## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

The past few nights have got me thinking...

Is anyone here familiar with breeding animals? I am (both horses and dogs). All our animals seem to "self wean" - in that a human doesn't intervene. HOWEVER, at a certain age mom tends to get VERY tired of nursing and usually speeds the process of "self weaning" along by refusing to nurse, or sometimes by pushing the baby away, until they are officially weaning and no longer nursing. Our horses are almost always "self weaned" by 6 months old because mom will no longer let them nurse.

I have no idea what 6 horse months translates into human months, but over the past week or so I've noticed a very distinct disinterest in nursing at night, even to the point of rolling over when she asks. Not intentionally. I mean, I haven't _decided_ to "night wean" her or anything, in fact, I encourage against it for babies under a year. I think the rolling over or pulling the covers up over my breasts are sort of done in a half sleep state, because if she really fusses I will nurse her, but I wondered if this is the same sort of animal instinct that my animals have when they beging the weaning process.

I know that probably sounds weird, but in my experience "extended" nursing, and even tandem nursing, is very unusual in a natural pasture horse herd. Our foals are all weaned before the mares come back into their second heat, which means all babies are long since weaned before new foals hit the ground.

Now, I have absolutely NO intentions of weaning her, during the day or at night, but I am sort of wondering where this disinterest is coming from? I am starting to really wonder whether or not nursing anytime of day or night into the toddler years until *they* decide when to stop is all that 'natural'.

Are we the only species that allows a suckling child to decide when *they* want to wean?

Does anyone else know what I'm talking about? Or is it possible that my PMS is just really, really, REALLY bad this month?







:


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## mavery (Jun 3, 2005)

I don't think it's natural for the child to completely rule the nursing relationship beyond the very early months. I think you're just instinctively shifting from the phase where your dd really needed you to nurse right away (because she was hungry or because she urgently needed that security) to a phase where she is secure in the world and where nursing is a negotiated relationship based on two people's needs and wants. You know her well enough to know how urgent her requests are, and you're balancing them with your own need for sleep. Sounds like it's all good and natural.

ETA: I have read secondary sources that cite Katherine Dettweiler's (? I think that's the name) estimate based on comparisons of primate data (birth sizes? rate of growth? compared to average nursing length) that a "natural" weaning age for humans is probably between 4 and 7 years.


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

I found the Kathy Dettwyler article on the natural age of weaning really interesting. http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detwean.html

I agree that it sounds like you're really reading her cues and listening to her. Sounds very natural to me too.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Nursing is a relationship between two people (or two horses, or two elephants, or two hamsters...) The feelings of both mother and child are equally important. I beleive that rolling over/ saying "we'll nurse in 5 minutes sweetie" etc. are all part of the natural weaning process.


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## paakbaak (Jan 24, 2007)

i understand you completely. when my ds wakes up, i give him a bit of water and if he still fussed i nurse him. but sometimes i´m lying there thinking "please let go of me now!!!!!" and i don´t want to nurse him at night anymore but i don´t want to wean him...i would LOVE for him to self-wean at night NOW!!!!!!

i think it´s natural. some mothers are perfectly comfortable with their children nursing until 5 years, some aren´t. i have worked with animals also and this is something i have always thought about. the mothers, at some, time start pushing the babies away when they try to nurse, and then let them nurse later, until they don´t nurse anymore. i think it´s natural for us to get tired also. i also think that we sometimes can push ourselves too much. what they told you is totally true: it´s a two-way relationship and both of us and our feelings are important.
i think it´s better for a child to have a happy no-nurse mother than boobs from a tired and no-longer-wanting-to-nurse mother!


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## Cherry Bomb! (May 18, 2006)

Hey North of 60... our children have the same birthday... TODAY! Happy Birth Day.

I am thinking of trying Dr. Jay Gordon's method of no nursing between 11pm and 6am, because my son has awoken once or twice an hour to nurse since he was 7 months old, and I'm TIRED of it. At the same time, I'm worried about it... What I would really like would be to nurse him just once or twice a night. Not ten to twenty... and I've been counting the days until he turns one (today) so that I could try Dr. Jay Gordon's method. But now I'm not sure. Ugh...


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## mamabain (Sep 19, 2002)

don't count on nightweaning to make your nightwaker wake less frequently. it hasn't worked for us. my dd doesn't nurse or even ask to nurse from about 8 pm to 5:30 am but she still wakes about 4 times in that stretch. sucks, cuz that is why i nightweaned.


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## CalBearMama (Sep 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cherry Bomb!* 
I am thinking of trying Dr. Jay Gordon's method of no nursing between 11pm and 6am, because my son has awoken once or twice an hour to nurse since he was 7 months old, and I'm TIRED of it.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but you might want to think about whether you can do anything to address the possible reason(s) that he is waking so frequently. He might need to pee (EC really helped us get better, longer stretches of sleep after we started it when DS was 10 months old), or he might be very sensitive to teething pain, in which case a remedy of some sort might help. Those have been the two primary reasons that my DS did not get stretches of quality sleep at one time or another, and I know it made me nutso, even though it never lasted for very long. Maybe also think about whether there are underlying food allergy issues or some undiagnosed medical problem that keeps him from sleeping well.


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## Cherry Bomb! (May 18, 2006)

He sleeps with two disposables that keep him very dry, so I don't think that's it. Having a wet or soiled diaper doesn't seems to bother him during the day with his cloth diapers. Also, don't know how I could do EC because he goes to daycare while we work. He doesn't seem to be in pain from teething during the day. He's quite happy. And at night when he wakes I don't get the sense that he's in pain. I'm quite sure it's not a food allergy issue, either. I think he just stirs and immediately wants to nurse because that's his favorite way of falling back asleep.


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## x's mom (Dec 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
The past few nights have got me thinking...

Is anyone here familiar with breeding animals? I am (both horses and dogs). All our animals seem to "self wean" - in that a human doesn't intervene. HOWEVER, at a certain age mom tends to get VERY tired of nursing and usually speeds the process of "self weaning" along by refusing to nurse, or sometimes by pushing the baby away, until they are officially weaning and no longer nursing. Our horses are almost always "self weaned" by 6 months old because mom will no longer let them nurse.

I have no idea what 6 horse months translates into human months, but over the past week or so I've noticed a very distinct disinterest in nursing at night, even to the point of rolling over when she asks. Not intentionally. I mean, I haven't _decided_ to "night wean" her or anything, in fact, I encourage against it for babies under a year. I think the rolling over or pulling the covers up over my breasts are sort of done in a half sleep state, because if she really fusses I will nurse her, but I wondered if this is the same sort of animal instinct that my animals have when they beging the weaning process.

I know that probably sounds weird, but in my experience "extended" nursing, and even tandem nursing, is very unusual in a natural pasture horse herd. Our foals are all weaned before the mares come back into their second heat, which means all babies are long since weaned before new foals hit the ground.

Now, I have absolutely NO intentions of weaning her, during the day or at night, but I am sort of wondering where this disinterest is coming from? I am starting to really wonder whether or not nursing anytime of day or night into the toddler years until *they* decide when to stop is all that 'natural'.

Are we the only species that allows a suckling child to decide when *they* want to wean?

Does anyone else know what I'm talking about? Or is it possible that my PMS is just really, really, REALLY bad this month?







:









Happy birthday to your AVA MARIE!


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## mamaLHK (Mar 15, 2005)

To the OP's question, I read in one of Jane Goodall's books that chimpanzee mothers (who are humans' closest animal relatives) wean their offspring at 4 years of age. And it is against the wishes of the offspring, who can get very clingy and mopey during that time. I was very surprised to read it. After that period the mother goes into estrous (or whatever it is called for chimpanzees), and then usually becomes pregnant again (and the previous offspring bounces back and becomes excited by the next offspring, according to J.G.).


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## Socks! (Dec 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cherry Bomb!* 
He sleeps with two disposables that keep him very dry, so I don't think that's it. Having a wet or soiled diaper doesn't seems to bother him during the day with his cloth diapers. Also, don't know how I could do EC because he goes to daycare while we work. He doesn't seem to be in pain from teething during the day. He's quite happy. And at night when he wakes I don't get the sense that he's in pain. I'm quite sure it's not a food allergy issue, either. I think he just stirs and immediately wants to nurse because that's his favorite way of falling back asleep.

You say that he is in daycare during the day. Is there a possibility that he has a reversed feeding schedule (his main need to nurse being at night)? If so I wouldn't advice to nightwean him.
Maybe you could try to create less disturbances for you though. I know it's not as easy for everybody, but DS2 is a reverse schedule eater and I do not wake up for any of his nursing sessions. He does it all himself. I've had a friend with a very light sleep spending the night and she commented on hearing him 5 times - I had no idea, because I slept right through it!
Are you cosleeping? Does he have easy boobage access? Maybe you could try and get him to nurse just before you go to sleep. You don't even have to wake them for that, boobie in the face should do it
 







I know the feeling of "Get off already!" though. It too passes!
Good luck!


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## wombatclay (Sep 4, 2005)

To the OP- yes...I think that modern humans have extended breastfeeding (when we extend breastfeeding that is!) beyond what is generally seen in the natural world or even the historical record. Perhaps because it is "easier" for a modern human woman to provide for the needs of an older nursling while also carrying an unborn (due to diet/availability of food, a less physically demanding daily routine, better overall health)? I'm not sure...but it would be a great paper!

But I know from my background in anthropology (socio-cultural primarily but some work with primate studies) that weaning can happen pretty suddenly/violently in the animal world and that "natural" doesn't always mean "peaceful, happy, gradual, and filled with joy"!

It sounds like you're following your little one's cues and listening to your own inner needs...breastfeeding (especially in an older nursling and at night) is all about balance, and balance changes over time.


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## Swandira (Jun 26, 2005)

I've noticed cats wean their babies by kicking them in the head when they try to nurse. We can all pat ourselves on the back for not resorting to such methods!









Nealy
Tandem-nursing mama to Thales (posterior c/s 12/9/02) and Lydia (VBAC 2/26/06)


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Interesting thread!

I don't have anything to add in respect to the animal world, but I do think that extended bf'ing is really up to both the mama and the child. And nursing at night takes a huge toll on us as our busy lives really require more adequate sleep.

I find that when I start to feel resentful of waking at night so frequently, I give it a little time and it either passes or tells me that something has to change.

I can only speak for myself, but following my own instincts rather than a particular "style" of parenting serves me and my family much better. I nursed my first son for 2 1/2 years and it was fine. This time around with my second, I'm not sure what will happen but I'm going to trust my instincts to tell me when I've had enough...if he doesn't decide that before me!


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## spiritmomma (Aug 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Swandira* 
I've noticed cats wean their babies by kicking them in the head when they try to nurse. We can all pat ourselves on the back for not resorting to such methods!









laughup

yeah, seriously. I've come close I think...










Just kidding. I wanted to add that I agree that "natural" doesn't mean "easy" Some kids are ready to give up the milkies, others not so much. My daughter seemed to take it pretty well when papa started putting her to sleep instead of me nursing her down. She also seemed to adapt pretty well to not nursing at all between 10pm and 6am. When I say she adapted pretty well, I mean she cried the first night and we nursed. She fussed the second, third and fourth nights and we nursed. She fussed the fifth and sixth night but didn't need to nurse to go back to sleep. By the end of the first week she was fine with being rocked back to sleep without even asking for milk. By the end of 2 weeks she was sleeping from 8:30 or 9pm to 4 or 5am every night without waking at all. (!) It happend a lot faster than I thought it would. I was pleasantly surprised at the speed since I fully anticipated nightweaning taking 6 months or longer. 2 weeks. That was it.
I'm hoping that it is a given that we did not EVER let her cry unattended, but always in arms with a calm and loving mama or papa. She also co-sleeps with papa every night while I sleep in another bed. Everyone is happier and getting more sleep.
Be prepared for it to be really REALLY hard. And then if it turns out to be just a little bit hard, or even easy, you'll be so thankful and pleased.

Good luck!

p.s. I also like the Jay Gordon article on night weaning. It helped me a lot.


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## zane'smama (Oct 11, 2006)

When I was little (maybe 12) we had a cat that had kittens. She was on her second litter of kittens and one of her older kittens still liked to cuddle in and nurse (we also thought he was the daddy to the new kittens) She would let him nurse for a little while and then she would kick at him and run him off. Since we were talking about the natural world, I just thought that I would throw that in. How it relates I am not quite sure. Maybe that kittens would nurse for a longer period of time if their mothers let them? Then again, by the time kittens finish nursing in kitten years, I would think that they are about 2kittenyrs at least. You also have to think that they say that humans are born the most dependent on their mothers of all the mammals. The natural world is survival of the fittest too. That is not quite what our world is like anymore.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

I've noticed my goat gets sick of her kid sometimes and will lay down or move away so he can't nurse. I weaned my dd that way - and I see that I'm starting to do it with my 8 month old. I don't let him sleep with me and suckle all night long (and he absolutely would if I let him sleep next to me). I just got where I needed more space and more rest. A month ago or so, we realized he would actually sleep if we laid him down in a crib in a separate room. The crib in the same room didn't work - we woke him up or something. I would try to hold out on him, and he would just cry. But in a separate room he sleeps a good 5 or 6 hours, then I bring him to bed and nurse him of and on through the early morning. Both of my kids took this separation easily without any fuss, so I think it was the natural step for us.


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## CalBearMama (Sep 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cherry Bomb!* 
He sleeps with two disposables that keep him very dry, so I don't think that's it. Having a wet or soiled diaper doesn't seems to bother him during the day with his cloth diapers. Also, don't know how I could do EC because he goes to daycare while we work. He doesn't seem to be in pain from teething during the day. He's quite happy. And at night when he wakes I don't get the sense that he's in pain. I'm quite sure it's not a food allergy issue, either. I think he just stirs and immediately wants to nurse because that's his favorite way of falling back asleep.

Again, sorry to the OP for going OT. Just wanted to throw out there that night-time EC is what saved my sanity. Before we started it, DS would need to pee, would wake up, would nurse back to sleep but still need to pee, would wake up again, would nurse back to sleep, etc. etc. until he finally couldn't hold his pee any more and would give up and pee in his diaper. This could go on for hours and hours, with wakings every half hour or hour. When I finally recognized that this is what was going on (I checked his diaper at the first waking, and it was dry, but he was sleeping really restlessly and seemed uncomfortable), I took his diaper off, held him over the toilet, and he peed a TON. Then he nursed back to sleep very quickly (since that wasn't really the reason he had woken up), and he slept very soundly for another 3-4 hour stretch (which was an eternity for us at the time).

Night-time EC was the only EC I did for a little while, but then it just made sense to extend it into the day, even though DS is with a nanny 3 days a week while I work. Part-time EC worked very well for us in terms of maintaining DS's connection with the feeling of needing to eliminate, and establishing his ability to do it somewhere other than a diaper. Our nanny started having EC success with him at about 16 months (we were doing well at home long before that), and by 19 months, she was even confident enough to have him in underwear all the time (he hadn't had a wet or soiled diaper with her in over a month).

Anyway, just wanted to clarify that the night-time EC suggestion is not to alleviate the child's discomfort with a wet or soiled diaper, but to relieve his discomfort with the feeling of NEEDING to pee, which might wake him up repeatedly before he finally goes.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wombatclay* 
But I know from my background in anthropology (socio-cultural primarily but some work with primate studies) that weaning can happen pretty suddenly/violently in the animal world and that "natural" doesn't always mean "peaceful, happy, gradual, and filled with joy"!

It sounds like you're following your little one's cues and listening to your own inner needs...breastfeeding (especially in an older nursling and at night) is all about balance, and balance changes over time.









Yeah, the "natural world" is deffinitly not gentle. We don't wean our young by kicking and biting at them!







This whole thing is kind of bitter sweet. I always thought I would be OVER JOYED when she didn't need to nurse at night, and as much as I hate it at times, it's still sad that I know she's getting older and less dependent.


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

I have had this same thought before. I noticed it when a dog I rescued had pups. There was definitely a time when she was actively discouraging nursing, starting around 7 weeks IIRC. I nursed my 1st for 32 months and it felt too long to me. I had to lead weaning with her, both night weaning and weaning completely. She'd still be nursing every 2 hours day and night if I would let her, but I was DONE. I think it depends on the kid, and the mom.

FWIW, I nightweaned my boobaholic 1st when she was 19 months in about 3 nights, and she slept through from then until she was 27 months and my 2nd was born (that was 6 months ago and she's still waking up so now I'm dealing w/ two doing it).


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
She'd still be nursing every 2 hours day and night if I would let her, but I was DONE. I think it depends on the kid, and the mom.

ITA. It's such an individual thing. There's no "right" way to do this. My ds#2 would happily nurse all night long but I would be the world's worst mother if we kept that up...so we made some changes and all is much better. And he adjusted just fine. We still nurse at night (he's only 10mos) but it's not every two hours anymore, thank god.

I think we don't give our kiddos enough credit...they are very flexible (well, a lot of them are) and resilient and adjust to change better than most adults.


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## spiritmomma (Aug 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel*
I think we don't give our kiddos enough credit...they are very flexible (well, a lot of them are) and resilient and adjust to change better than most adults.









: Well said. I think so many of us go into changes with our kids thinking that we will be doing 90% of the work toward change. In fact, many times I've been surprised by how easy a change was due to the fact that my daughter did so much of the work on her own. That's an ecouraging thing to think about when a life change is needed.


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