# do i just accept that i have to lie?



## rumi (Mar 29, 2004)

seeking inputs from consensual parents ...

my daughter protests vicks vehemently. i can only apply it to her when she is fast asleep. when i am talking about it, e.g. asking dh to get it i always have to explain that it is for me. she will hear me talking about it and immediately protest that she does not want vicks and then i tell her that it is for me.

she believes me and calms down. then after she is asleep i put it on her.

i have not had to force her to take any medicine because we use homeopathy which she likes taking anyway. i dont know what i'd have done if that were not the case, but anyway the question has arisen with the vicks which i am not only using without her consent, but (what i feel is worse) i am lying to her about it...


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## Bleu (Mar 6, 2004)

me, I'd just skip the Vicks.


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## VeganSculptor (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bleu*
me, I'd just skip the Vicks.

Me too. Is it necessary?


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## rumi (Mar 29, 2004)

it certainly clears her stuffy nose and enables her to breathe more easily and sleep.


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## NoraB (Dec 10, 2002)

What about a vaporizer w/ the vicks liquid in her room. That way, you don't have to put it on her body.


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## rumi (Mar 29, 2004)

intriguing ... i gave the vicks only as an example. i assumed others would have gone through the same things with other 'medicines' or maybe other things. the vaporiser is ok, but nowhere near as effective as the vicks on the nose, forehead and throat.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Honestly if she objects that much and can not be reasoned into it and it is not an urgent health issue (antibiotics for a raging infection) then I wouldn't do it.

-Angela


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## ladybugchild77 (Jun 18, 2004)

Have you tried the baby formula of the Vicks??? I used that on dd when she was tyounger and it isn't as harsh in smell or "tingly-ness" (I know becasue I used it for the same cold!







). Also, have you tried a few drops of eucalyptus and lavender in a vaporizer??? Good luck and I hope your dc feels better soon!


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## spyiispy (Jul 23, 2002)

If Vicks is the best thing that works on her.........why do you have to mention it at all???? Just put it on her when she's asleep. Don't even bring it up. Would that work??? This is assuming it doesn't burn her chest or cause her discomfort in any way. Tom's makes a decongestant very similar to Vick's...only not petroleum based. Its a little less strong as well.

Lisa


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

I prefer a nose-sucker thingy, which ds does not like, but is sometimes completley nesseecary for him to breath








I personally think vicks feels awful and wouldn't want it either. But i guess it's whatever works...


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## fly-mom (May 23, 2005)

I don't like Vicks either, so I sympathsise with your dd. LOL! Seriously, I would just skip it. I don't think there's any real benefit to Vicks (my personal opinion) and if she hates it that much then there must be some reason.

Re: lying to a kid... I just don't like to do this at all. I try to be honest with dd always. There are infrequent times that I haven't been honest (i.e. the brownies are all gone), but I find that she's too smart, and figures out that I was lying. I don't like that. I don't like to be lied to, it makes me not trust the one who lied to me, and I don't want my dd to not trust me. In situations when I do find myself lying to her, it is usually because I am tired, and don't feel like explaining or putting up a fight over something.


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

I honestly don't think it's that big a deal (putting it on her after she's asleep), but I'd also try the alternatives other PPs suggested.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I agree with trying the baby vicks, we use that and DS loves it,

and/or not mentioning it at all and just doing it when she's asleep. If you do it when she's asleep, does she wake up upset or anything? If not, I'd just do that. Don't even bring it up around her if the mention of it bothers her so much.

But try the baby vicks, it doesn't burn at all. I even used it for myself last year, just a touch under my nose, and it was wonderful.


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

My brother and I are totally allergic to vicks. He becomes angry and agitated, I stop breating! So, we just do eucalyptus oil in a vaporizor. We'll also put a few drops on a warm wet washcloth and wipe the face (avoiding the eyes) or do a steam shower with eucalyptus oil in the bottom of the shower. I know how much you want to make your little one feel better, but the process doesn't sound like it accomplishes that.
Trish
P.S. I have a medicine protester too. she will take chewables, and so we've been quartering childrens tylenol for some time now so that she would be more comfortable. Also, she likes cough drops! You could even make your own vicks, probably use eucalyptus oil and olive oil. brush it on? wouldn't be as greasy and uncomfortalbe.
Trish


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I had a friend who was a chemist long ago. He told me that the menthol stuff is addictive, in that it clears you up, but then you keep needing it to clear. It becomes a vicious cycle.

I'd use a vaporizor with essential oils (I'd have to read again which are best for congestion...) Or put essetial oils on DS's chest and nose.

I also do it to DS when he's sleeping, if he's really fussy and objects. Sometimes he really likes the oils, though.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Lying...no way here. My trust relationship with ds is more important. Period. There is a lengthy thread in TAO, I believe, about 'Gentle ways to give your child medicine'. I'll try to link it here. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...7&page=1&pp=20 There were many gentle and creative ways. And many disrespectful and forceful ways advocated.









Vitamin C in large doses helps for a runny nose, we have found. With an initial objection, I'd put the Vicks on her chest while asleep, _if_ she seemed stuffy, *unless* she became aware and protested. Basically, if she isn't aware and it isn't objectionable, I'd probably put it on without initiating a discussion. But not if she was adamant about not using it at all. I would NOT put it on her awake against her will. [On rereading this, I don't believe that I would make this decision for anyone else, like my husband, without his consent, so I am becoming uncomfortable with my own advice.














: ]

I find that Vicks is cold and sort of stings, especially on the nasal opening. You might discuss this and see if that is the issue. It also sort of makes my head feel funny with all the vapor going into my upper airway/nasal passage to my throat, cold and stingy. So, my guess is it doesn't feel good to her. Obviously, *she* has a strong feeling about it. I always found it helped more on my nose than on my chest, but was less intense. You might place some in a little washable pouch/cloth and set it on/near her pillow.

There is homeopathy for stuffy noses too. And fwiw, the euclyptus antidotes homeopathy.









Of course, you could get things out without her awareness after she is asleep. And spelling "v-i-c-k-s" comes in handy when you don't want a child to react to what you are discussing. (we do this about going to the p-a-r-k, etc.) But, tricking/lying







It is a fine line and a slippery slope. I guess I would do something if I felt it would benefit ds if it isn't objectionable, but without his consent. But I would not do something _against_ his consent. That is much closer to non-coercive than consensual though. I'll need to think about this some. Thanks for bringing it up.

Pat


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I second that. I would not put it on her if she was uncomfortable with it... even while sleeping. I realize it helps clear her passages but perhaps there are alternatives like the pp's suggested? Do you think she would be willing to wear those thingies people put across their nose at night to keep their passages open? I believe they make them for children too in funky designs etc... I don't believe they contain any medication....

Also, I would try it without the vicks for a couple of nights and then talk to your daughter about how she feels. Brainstorm together (or at least involve her in the process) of coming up with ways to help her feel better without doing something she is uncomfortable with.

I don't feel good about lying in general, to kids or anyone. Even the small things make me feel uncomfortable.

Good luck to you and your daughter!


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Vicks burns my skin and is very painful so there might be a reason dc resists. and I was under the impression that it should not be applied under the nose. I personally would skip it. It has turpentine in it which is what makes it burn some people.


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## JennieYoung44 (Jan 21, 2006)

I think you probably have enough response to the vicks issue, but, the lying issue is very interesting. I don't lie to my boys but I do clip my 2yo son's nails in his sleep.
I think/hope the little lies don't hurt. I do wonder where the 2yo thinks his nails go though...


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## rumi (Mar 29, 2004)

so none of you (consensual parents) have given your dc medicine without his or her consent? unless it was life-threatening?


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rumi*
so none of you (consensual parents) have given your dc medicine without his or her consent? unless it was life-threatening?

We haven't had any life threatening issues. And we don't do antibiotics as a practice. We would for a bacteria specific culture, with ds's consent. We'd work very hard to find an agreeable alternative or administration method. We use homeopathics and herbals so I would go that route first. And ds loves our homeopathist. He'd probaby take anything she gave him.







He hasn't been adverse to any medicines that were important. He didn't like the Melatonin which we tried after a string of early night wakings. We tried it in several different combinations which he finally decided he didn't want to take. He also refuses Vit. C and Calcium supplements regularly, but again no huge issue. There are other alternatives: powders, enriched products, spinach (which he loves).

I have given him Rescue Remedy and Cherry Plum when he has been out of sorts. I could say it was "playful parenting", bordering on coercive. He finds it fun to play chase and will run and say 'can't catch me' and when I do 'I got ya', he smiles and opens his mouth for the remedy. If he is adamant about not taking it, I take it myself.














But usually, he just opens his mouth and does a little spit it out afterwards because he doesn't like the taste. We have used Rescue Remedy cream which I have rubbed on him, and sometimes he has protested afterwards and I wipe it off.

If he 'had to' take something for seizures, or a heart medicine or something like that, we'd find a way to make it agreeable. Mostly, he is just willing to discuss and consider the reasons for the medicine (cough medicine, Vit. C, cod liver oil~ which he happened to like!), and wants to take them. Otherwise, we find a palatable alternative.

Since we do classical homeopathy we just don't get sick much and certainly don't need medicine routinely. (knockonwood). This is very different than before we were on homeopathy. Oh, I forgot! Ds did have poison ivy, severely (~20% of his body surface) and whooping cough (at the same time), around age 2.3, for 6 weeks! And these were huge issues to find agreeable medications. These nearly hospitalized him. But, not coerced; he wanted help. We just kept working to find something that provided relief. The sprays stung, some salves burned, some smelled yucky, etc. We went through trying about 10 different products for the poison ivy. Eventually, the homeopathy helped keep him from being hospitalized with the whooping cough. Seriously, that is what converted me to being a believer......









HTH, Pat


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rumi*
so none of you (consensual parents) have given your dc medicine without his or her consent? unless it was life-threatening?

Actually, no, I have not. Dd has never had a life-threatening illness. For the colds and fevers she has had, I have explained that there are meds she could take that could help relieve the symptoms and I let her decide. Symptom relief meds are not something I "need" her to take. They are for her benefit only. if she decides the potential benefit is not worth the unpleasant experience of taking the meds, that is her business. Although I have found that she usually prefers to trust what I am saying and will take meds willingly if I state that I think they will help her feel better. Before she could talk or understand what was saying, i would attempt to administer them and read her cues. If she turned away or cried, I would not push it or might try mixing it with food or something to maike it palatable. We do not do antibiotics as a rule, but if it ever came down to that even, there are several options.....shots, liquid, pills, putitng it in food/candy, etc..... We would discuss the problem that requires it, hear what the doc has to say about it, look at our options, and let dd decide which is most appealling to her. Unless it were life or death, I would not force her to take any medication.


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## fly-mom (May 23, 2005)

I don't consider myself a 'consentual parent' in the sense that I feel I need dd's agreement in every situation in which she is involved. That being said, no, I have rarely attempted to force her to take medicine. I say rarely, because I have tried a few times and been largely unsuccesful. Now that she is verbal, I do much the same thing that the pp described. I tell her that I think this medecine will help her feel better. I tell her how it will make her feel better ("this will help your runny nose feel better"). Almost all of the time she will agree. If she doesn't agree right away I do usually ask again later (10-15 minutes), and she will usually agree.

Most of the time it is not some medecine that is required (i.e. antibiotics for an ear infection). If it's only to make her feel better, she has the final say. In every case in which is has been a 'necessary' medication she has agreed to take it, maybe not on the first try, but usually she does. Maybe she is just a really easy going kid. We'll see if the bean on the way is as easy going (LOL- knock on wood)!

Edited to add, by trial and error I have found with dd that the more forceful we (...read DH) have tried to be in giving meds, the more resistance she puts up!


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## Diane~Alena (Aug 23, 2004)

I for one would skip it as many have said. being a mom to four I have learned to let things go. If she doesn't want it then don't lie to her and sneak it in she will know and will ose trust in you. Besides nothing is worth this battle. Maybe you could buy some essential oils like others said I know I like those for my colds. Give her the choice of the Vicks or the oil she might like that power over her own life. Or even let her go the night without the vicks and ask her how she slept, let her see how nasty a nights sleep she will get. I have said it before and I will say it again, no better lesson then seeing the results of your actions. Goodluck to you I know it is so hard when you try to do what is best fromt hem and they fight you on it


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

I guess I'm not a completely consensual parent. The tactic that I would take is having a code word (or spell) if there is something that I need dh to get without ds's knowledge. I've done stuff like put cream on rashes while ds is asleep because I know he doesn't like it. For Vicks, I would try putting it in a vaporizer. That would probably be a happy compromise. I have given medicine by force, but I save it for really important stuff and try other ways first. I don't quite understand the life threatening only stance, because there are things that can be prevented with proper care, for instance, dental work. I let ds choose where, how, and when during our bedtime routine I'll brush his teeth, but not if I will brush his teeth. I did stop trimming ds's nails in his sleep, because he didn't like waking up with short nails







. Now, he just comes to me if he breaks one.


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## rumi (Mar 29, 2004)

so last night we tried going without the vicks. at midnight she woke up struggling with her stuffy nose, coughing etc. at such times she finds it difficult nurse so we did all kinds of thigs till she fell asleep. then i put the vicks. within minutes i could hear her breathing become clearer and slow down. she slept the rest of the night.

i will try talkig about the vicks - maybe after this cold is well past.

i dont think that avoidig talking about the vicks or using a code word or spelling it would be more honest than what i am doing now though it may be more comfortable than outright sayng, that the the vicks is for me when it is actually for her.

anyway, maybe i am not as consensual as i thought.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rumi*
i dont think that avoidig talking about the vicks or using a code word or spelling it would be more honest than what i am doing now though it may be more comfortable than outright sayng, that the the vicks is for me when it is actually for her. .

I believe there is a big difference between lying and omitting information unless requested, but your comfort level is what counts here







. If you say you are not going to put it on her but she wakes up in the morning and notices the residue on her skin, she will know that you lied and she may lose some trust in you. If you don't talk about it, and she notices it in the morning, she has the opportunity to tell you she doesn't want you to do it anymore and you have an opportunity to talk about why you feel it is sometimes neccessary, when she isn't tired. Then you can procede in your decision making from there. If you are going to do it regardless, because you feel it is for the best, there is nothing to be gained by talking about it in dd's presence.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

In case you are open to alternatives to Vicks, we use drops that contain the same herbs as in Vicks but without the cream. The doctor wrote down the ingredients and the pharmacy prepared the drops specially for us. The kids always loved these drops which they think are perfume because they really smell very nice. Plus the drops falling on their skin always made them laugh. I often put extra drops on the pillow and on their pajamas. I think the adult version of Vicks is not usually prescribed to kids under 7, but I may be wrong. I do remember that for some reason the ped has always recommended we use his drops and not Vicks for young children.


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## cheery (Jul 29, 2004)

please can you let us know about the drops - what are the ingredients?


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

I will post tomorrow with that...


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I don't consider myself a 'consentual parent' either. Honestly, as far as I'm concerned, dh and I are the ones in charge here. I still don't make the kids take medicine without their consent. I personally never liked taking medicine and I was one of those kids who really would rather ride out being sick than take medicine. I can't fault my kids for being the same way.


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## KaraBoo (Nov 22, 2001)

Could you let her hold the container and touch the Vicks, put some on you maybe? (I hate that stuff too and would gladly just be stuffy until I got better on my own)


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## cheery (Jul 29, 2004)

it is really interesting to find that no one, consensual or not, seems to have used 'medicine' wihtout children's consent. i am not sure if this counts as life threatening but my dd got a scratch and i wanted to clean it with antiseptic but she refused and i let it go. few days later it looks really ugly so i cleaned it and put on the cream while she screamed and cried. i am not sure how i could have handled it better. i happened to be in a hospital visiting someone else so i went ahead and showed the doctor who said that "there is no pus at present but it is likely to get infected" and wrote out a prescription for BOTH antiseptic cream AND antibiotics. dd hasnt had to take antibiotics or really any 'medicine' so far and I would prefer to avoid it at all costs. So the cream went on again today, screams and all. I explained that if we didnt do this the wound would get bigger and she said that in fact it would not get bigger. It is to the point where I want to ask myself, do I really expect her to understand and consent ... whereas in my heart I never want to doubt that. where am I going wrong here?


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cheery*
it is really interesting to find that no one, consensual or not, seems to have used 'medicine' wihtout children's consent. i am not sure if this counts as life threatening but my dd got a scratch and i wanted to clean it with antiseptic but she refused and i let it go. few days later it looks really ugly so i cleaned it and put on the cream while she screamed and cried. i am not sure how i could have handled it better. i happened to be in a hospital visiting someone else so i went ahead and showed the doctor who said that "there is no pus at present but it is likely to get infected" and wrote out a prescription for BOTH antiseptic cream AND antibiotics. dd hasnt had to take antibiotics or really any 'medicine' so far and I would prefer to avoid it at all costs. So the cream went on again today, screams and all. I explained that if we didnt do this the wound would get bigger and she said that in fact it would not get bigger. It is to the point where I want to ask myself, do I really expect her to understand and consent ... whereas in my heart I never want to doubt that. where am I going wrong here?

How old is your child? I cannot imagine a scenario where a small scratch (even if infected) would require oral antibiotics. In fact, that is a really dangerous for a doctor to be prescribing them so liberally! There is a process that our bodies go through, it is an inflammatory process that creates heat to kill off entering bacteria. This is a good thing, this means the body is working to heal itself. Even puss is a sign on that.

What works for us to is to clean with soap and water and we use lavender (it's antibacterial) and calendula to aid in healing. I wouldn't force any of it. What about a bath with Epsom salt and lavender, just being in the water will clean it. Antibiotics will really mess with her intestinal flora.

Hope you can find something that works for you both. The body is an amazing thing - it heals all kinds of things.


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## fly-mom (May 23, 2005)

I have yet to meet a child (toddler and older) who is not thrilled with the idea of getting a band-aid. I wonder if the prospect of getting a band-aid, with the explanation that the scratch would need to be cleaned first, would have convinced her? Also, like someone posted earlier, for us at least, letting dd do things herself works more often than I ever would have thought it would.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fly-mom*
I have yet to meet a child (toddler and older) who is not thrilled with the idea of getting a band-aid. .

May I introduce you to my ds?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I seem to be the oddball in that I _love_ Vicks - always have. But, I have found eucalyptus oil quite effective, for me and ds1. I haven't tried it on dd, yet. I either put it in a cup of hot water and steam(with a towel over my head), or add it to my hot bath.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cheery*
please can you let us know about the drops - what are the ingredients?

The ingredients are rosmarin, thyme and eucaliptus.
Sorry for the delay


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I guess I'm not a fully consensual parent.







When my son is sick and I think he can benefit from medicine, I will make him take it. Usually it goes like this: "I know you don't like the taste of this stuff, but it will make you feel better. Let's just get this part over with--I'm going to give you two droppers, okay? here's one--here's two." Then I hold him and acknowledge that he didn't like it and say I hope it makes him feel better.

I never lie because he remembers everything.

I wish I had a better answer. I don't think your lie is so terrible. The main thing is for her to feel better. Maybe these mamas can help you find an alternative medicine.


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## fly-mom (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom*
May I introduce you to my ds?










Oh! That is too bad!







I guess that won't work then!


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## ComfyCozy (Dec 7, 2005)

My six year old didn't like Mentholatum, but she got it anyway. We didn't hide it from her, and I certainly wouldn't lie to her about it. In the "real world" sometimes the things that are best for us are things we don't "like" and we learn to overcome our reluctance and do what needs to be done. We don't pin her down or anything, but it's not easy gaining her cooperation. Then when it's on she sees it doesn't hurt and all is well...She actually doesn't mind it anymore.

I suppose perhaps such things don't bother me as much anymore because when my oldest was a baby, we had to insert a prosthetic eye every morning and take it out at night. At one year old, she did not like this at ALL and we did have to go against her will. It was heartwrenching, but it had to be done daily. She isn't fond of the thing still, but she knows how to do it all on her own now and is actually the most cooperative about doing things she doesn't feel like doing.

If she needs it, give it to her and know it won't scar her for life


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I know this is always a hot button topic, but having to deal with life saving medical situations with a young baby and toddler gave me complete peace and clarity over the small stuff too. I know that ds came to the world with the intention to live. Yet he was born into a body that would not live without interventions. At this point in history, those interventions are simultaneously effective, painful and scary. I never saw ds' cries or fits as protesting the necessity of what was done, but rather, the pain and frustration that was intrinsic to the process. Maybe you have to be in the situation to see the difference. I knew with total clarity our first night in the ER, ds hours from dying, that he wanted to live. Once I knew that in my heart, my role in his life was very clear to me. I can honestly say I am positive on a spiritual level he meant for me to be responsible for him, and he trusted me completely to take on that responsibility. His crying or protesting wasn't a signal that he wanted me to stop his care or do anything that could make him sicker or decrease his survival. Far from it. He was the one having to endure the physical pain and suffering. I was the one who had to think clearly and see how best to keep him on a path to survival. Yes I made the decisions, and yes it was as his equal. Some things cannot be seen from ideology, yet become clear in the trenches of living.

This was clear to me on smaller scale situations too. Ds simply trusted me to keep him on a path to survival, and if by chance he was too young to know the facts, or overcome with pain or fear, it did not change the understanding we had.

I would never lie. I'd rather he kick me in protest while I give a medicine than have him think I'm sneaky. However that is different than just not mentioning something they didn't ask to know. I always trimmed ds bangs and nails while he slept in his carseat after running errands. I put medicine in better tasting drinks or foods if it helped to mask the taste. These were just things I did from a place of efficiency, not dishonesty.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

I have been thinking about this thread, and I realized I have never had to force my DS to take anything at all. The few times I felt he needed something (like Tylenol or taking out a splinter or something) he has been completely cooperative.

Honestly, in the Vick's situation I would try to find an alternative and I would sing and dance a jig trying to see if he would agree to it, if it would just really really help (I have never used Vick's personally). But if my DS wasn't able to articulate why he didn't like the Vick's, I would probably go on putting in on in his sleep. I would even explain to him that I would wait until he's asleep to put it on so it won't hurt and he won't know it's there, if the subject came up (like when we bought it).

I think this is a toughie though - when medicine is life threatening, I think it's an easy call. My toddler doesn't understand that he is not immortal









It's when you think a medicine will really help but isn't life-threatening that it gets to be a grey area.


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

If she doesnt like it I wouldnt put it on her. Maybe she doesnt like the smell.

I would load her up on C.

Vics isnt life or death IMO.

I dont lie to my kids, I want them to be able to trust me.


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