# So if Dr. Sears says that nightwaking might be a medical issue...



## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

A quote from Dr. Sears' website:

Quote:

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/7/T070400.asp
HIDDEN MEDICAL CAUSES OF NIGHTWAKING

As a pediatrician, one of the reasons I am becoming increasingly cautious about insensitively using the cry-it-out approach to get babies to sleep longer is that doctors and parents automatically assume that a nightwaking baby has bad sleeping habits and they miss underlying painful causes of nightwaking. Suspect a medical cause for nightwaking if:

baby awakens with sudden colicky-type abdominal pains
a good sleeper suddenly becomes a restless sleeper
baby has not slept well since birth
there are other signs or symptoms of illness
baby cries inconsolably
your intuition tells you something is wrong
no other cause is apparent
My DS will be 3 soon, and has never slept through the night, and usually only sleeps _at most_ 2-3 hour stretches _(often less)_.
He has slept 5 hour stretches maybe 3 or 4 times _in his entire life_.

So, I just always chalked it up to him being a higher-need-nurser who would nightwean eventually and sleep through the night - and I figured at this rate it wouldn't happen before he is at least 3 1/2 (isn't there a "yawn" smilie???)....

....but from this quote from Dr. Sears I see listed "baby has not slept well since birth".... and my DS certainly has not, although he _will_ go to bed in the evening and stay there until the morning, and will stay asleep as long as my nipple is available. So I guess he _does_ sleep well, but _I_ don't!!!

Is it time for me to go to an allergist, or a chiropractor, or an acupuncturist, or a "get-more-patience-this-will-take-a-few-more-months-before-it's-over" clinic????

I need some


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Oh, here is his usual sleep/nursing schedule:

8:30-9pm nurse to sleep
10 or 11pm - wake to nurse back to sleep - 5-10 min
12:30 or 1am - wake to nurse back to sleep - 5-10 min
3 or 3:30 am - wake to nurse back to sleep, but this time it lasts for maybe 45 minutes
Crack-o-dawn - nurse for maybe two hours straight until he gets out of bed to greet the day at around 7 or 7:30 am.


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## Kia (Sep 21, 2004)

Dying to read what people have to say. My little 7 month old is up around 16 times a night. Need the 'yawn' emoticon, too.

Hugs to you mama

Kia


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

me too! me too! my 11 month old ds wakes up SCREAMING several times a night, sometimes nursing comforts him (he nurses ALL night long) but sometimes it won't help. I've tried chamomille tea, gripe water, calming homeopathic drops, massages, baths, teething gels.. but no change!


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Mamas, I feel for you both... really, I do!

But - I'm being a little bit selfish here - my DS is going on 3!
I have been dealing with sleepless nights since in utero around November 2001!
I know I'm not the tiredest mama here, but, for Pete's sake - my DS is going to be 3 years old and he just does not sleep more than a couple of hours straight!!!

I could deal with it for the first year - it was to be expected.
The second year was probably the hardest bc I was like WTH - he's still not sleeping???
And this year - we're reaching the end of the 3rd year - has just been numbing.
I don't think many mamas have to deal with what I'm dealing with. I know there are a bunch out there, but I get the impression that most kids are sleeping at least 5 hour stretches by age 2 or 2 1/2.


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

sometimes it's really hard for me to not get angry about my lack of sleep.


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## Eman'smom (Mar 19, 2002)

Just wanted to say I'm with you, I'm so tired and angry.


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## megincl (Sep 10, 2002)

well, i first must say that DS is 22 mo so we didn't live with the absolutely horrible sleep as long as you -- hugest of hugs for that!

although i know this is not tremendously popular on this forum at this point, i'm going to recommend night weaning. we night weaned DS around 14 mo and his sleep improved TREMENDOUSLY. i also want to say, if nightweaning is not for you, don't take this as pushy or anything like that.

DS woke every hour or so, needed to nurse constantly, woke screaming, etc. while he does have allergies, we dealt with all of those issues, he slept fine for naps, was happy during the day, etc. he just wanted to nurse all night long. this did not work for me and DW because our daytime schedules don't allow for naps, much flexibility, etc.

so, at 14mo we decided to night wean. we modified Dr. Jay Gordon's method, cutting out nursing altogether from bedtime until morning (5:30am or so). We soothed DS in many other ways than with nursing. Luckily, this did not cause tremendous upset. A few minutes of crying at the most, which to me meant he was ready to do this. After about a week, he wasn't nursing at night and was waking more like every 2-3 hours than every 1. Then after two weeks it was waking 2-3 times a night. Then he started sleeping through, pretty regularly.

there are still some nights when this doesn't happen, but the difference is completely tremendous. having rather uninterrupted sleep has made a world of difference for my psyche, outlook, etc.

best of luck to you!
megin


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

I think there is not enough reliable information on "normal" toddler sleep that it is really hard to know what a reasonable expectation would be. I consider my son to be a "good sleeper" but OTOH he does wake anywhere from 2-5 times a night and nurses back to sleep. Some nights it bugs me more than others. I am very hesitant to restrict his night-nursing because his weight is so low (3rd %ile) and I worry about his nutrition intake. If he was a more average weight and a good eater I'd probably be leaning more toward discouraging night-nursing. I do wish there was better information on what is biologically normal so that people like the OP here would have a sense of whether or not something might be wrong. My suspicion is that most physicians would just tell you to use CIO and be shocked that you haven't done so already.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UrbanPlanner*
Mamas, I feel for you both... really, I do!

But - I'm being a little bit selfish here - my DS is going on 3!
I have been dealing with sleepless nights since in utero around November 2001!
I know I'm not the tiredest mama here, but, for Pete's sake - my DS is going to be 3 years old and he just does not sleep more than a couple of hours straight!!!

I could deal with it for the first year - it was to be expected.
The second year was probably the hardest bc I was like WTH - he's still not sleeping???
And this year - we're reaching the end of the 3rd year - has just been numbing.
I don't think many mamas have to deal with what I'm dealing with. I know there are a bunch out there, but I get the impression that most kids are sleeping at least 5 hour stretches by age 2 or 2 1/2.

I know what you mean. I also have an almost 4 year old that goes asleep on her own, in her own bed and in her own room, BY CHOICE







so I do feel for you. I stopped "putting her to sleep" at around almost 3, when she would stay in her bed when we tucked her in.


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

my first suspicion would be allergies of some sort. I personally can't sleep if my clothes, sheets, or blankets have any sort of perfumed fabric softener or laundry detergent on them. I get itchy all over. No red rash or bumps (not always, anyway), just an all over itchy crawly feeling that keeps me from sleeping. I even have that same skin irritation from some natural and/or unscented detergents! Any sort of soap, lotion, shampoo, or other body product could be causing that same sort of problem.

If you can totally rule out any sort of skin irritant, then I would try looking into the possibility of a food allergy. Dr. Sears has some great information about allergies, and how sometimes the only sign of an allergy is nightwaking!

good luck


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## Geofizz (Sep 25, 2003)

Further down the list is:
"your intuition tells you something is wrong"

What does your gut tell you? Any indications of other problems?

My dd started sleeping through the night starting at about 26 months (with a very gentle "push") and then promptly went back to her previous routine when we moved in November, just 6 weeks later. Our schedule looks exactly like yours ~ easy, quick nursing at first and then more and more difficult to settle as we get closer to dawn. Let me tell you, if you have 6 weeks to sleep through the night, it's really hard to go back. I got a glimpse of how others sleep, and I didn't want to give it up.

However, for me, my intuition is telling me everything is ok, it's just that my DD is changing a lot right now, getting used to a new life, and taking advantage of the mommy time. My DD is at times difficult to get to sleep and she doesn't sleep soundly, but she does sleep well and she generally gets enough sleep.

If your intuition is telling you that something is off (and by that I mean your fully-awake, well-rested intuition), then follow up with some possible other causes for the poor sleep.

Until you get it figured out, I'll let you cut in front of me in line at the coffee shop.


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## Geofizz (Sep 25, 2003)

Oh, and the early-morning super nursing sessions shorted and became less intense when I moved my vitamins to the morning ~ I think some of the B vitamins (contributing to wakefulness) were getting through by about 3-4 am. Those nursing sessions are still longer and more restless, but they're better.


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## lifetapestry (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UrbanPlanner*

Is it time for me to go to an allergist, or a chiropractor, or an acupuncturist, or a "get-more-patience-this-will-take-a-few-more-months-before-it's-over" clinic????

I need some









Right before I nightweaned my then 18 m.o. son using Dr. Gordon's method, I was pretty sure that his waking pattern (so much like your son's) was due to habit and not anything biological, including a "need" for food, drink, or comfort. My DH pointed out that if the refrigerator was right next to our bed, he might be inclined to wake up several times a night for a tasty snack.

Nightweaning was relatively easy, and the change seemed to be good for my son, too. I think he made up the nursing (he's still nursing at 3 1/2 btw) by taking in more milk first thing in the morning (then, the milk bar was open at 5am, and he'd nurse back to sleep until around 7:30pm) and at other times. Over the past 2 years, his sleep has naturally improved as his "habit" of nursing has diminished. Now, I think that nightweaning will work if your child is just habitually used to nursing, as opposed to needs to nurse or has some underlying biological issue that is satisfied by nursing.

At 3 1/2, I personally think that it's likely that your son just likes, or has the habit of nursing to go back to sleep. I think if you give nightweaning a try, you may learn whether or not his nightwaking is because of the nursing habit or not. Once my son stopped nursing at night, he slept straight (in our family bed) from 10pm until 5am -- occasionally he needed to be talked to or his back rubbed, etc. Thus, my conclusion is that if he had any medical condition underlying his nightwaking, it would have remained post-nightweaning. I would choose to try nightweaning, in your position, before I pursued possibly unnecessary tests for allergies or other invasive or expensive medical care. But that's just me.

I know how much better I feel after I get more than a couple of hours of uninterrupted sleep. I'm pretty sure that my son is the same way-- after he was nightweaned, he also started taking 1 longer nap rather than 2 or 3 shorter naps. I think he needed to be nightweaned in order to improve his sleep more generally.

So from my experience only (and I am not claiming an universal or exclusive knowledge), I am just very skeptical that toddlers who have always nursed on demand at night have a medical condition or even a biological need that requires that they nurse all night. Although I'm sure that most nurslings will eventually "outgrow" this night waking, the more common pattern I've seen on multiple BB suggests that nursing on demand at night will continue as long as mama is willing to.

I'm in awe of mamas who can nightfeed on demand, for hours like you are describing. I think it's great if that works for you and your nursling-- it is unquestionably the best thing if you can take it. But I think when you're so sleep deprived that you are obviously looking to change things, one thing to consider is nightweaning.

Karla


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Thanks, Mamas.









I should have said that nightweaning is not an option (for a variety of reasons).

I do know that my son has allergies, but he's never been tested for them. But he has always been resistant to solid food, and there are many that he refused to (and never has) eat/en to this day (like most meats, eggs, many vegetables...). He has chronic exczema on his wrists, inside his elbows, behind his ears, and sometimes in small patches in other spots. If he drinks milk, he gets diarrhea. I don't know about wheat, but I wonder... and then I worry, bc he is a carb addict and loves bread and bagels and pasta. And the wheat free stuff just doesn't taste as good to him or us.

I think about nightwaking all of the time. I think about sleep patterns, and how a baby and toddler have shorter sleep patterns. I figure my DS has 45 minute cycles (they might be longer now) bc he would wake up every 45 minutes and then it would stretch to 1 1/2 hours...

I also think about instinct, and what I would do if I was not inundated with popular advice... I think that a mother naturally gets tired of nursing, and without a lot of support or being surrounded by others in the same boat, it can become easy to think about weaning. Which I won't do (like I said, for a variety of reasons).

I know that children naturally night-wean in due time, and naturally wean altogether when they are ready. I'm committed to this notion.

And I do sleep through many of the nursings at night - I often wake to find him latched on, but then I fall back to sleep pretty quickly.

But getting back to instinct: advice or no advice, I do think there comes a time when a mother chooses to set limits (and I do set reasonable limits - not trying to wean, but if nursing is inconvenient at that moment - like, if I'm sitting on the toilet - I see if DS can wait a bit) and I often wonder about nightweaning and weaning and child-led weaning (which is what we are doing). If I were to try to discourage the nursing at night - giving in to my need to sleep longer hours and having that need overrule DS' need - then everyone in the bed would lose sleep bc of the repurcussions. The need is that great.

And, I think comfort is as great a need as hunger. Things that are comforting are of course habit-forming.

So, part of me wants to discourage nursing at night, but part of me doesn't want to distress my son. Oh, that's enough about nightweaning, bc it really is not an option so I shouldn't be pursuing this topic.

The real deal: I'm committed to nursing DS in a mutually agreeable way for as long as he needs it. I just want to know if there is something physically going on that can be addressed as far as his sleep patterns.

I've heard of chiropractic therapy as an option, but haven't pursued it. I know I can't get help from my ped - her practice advised me to CIO when DS was 5 months.


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Geofizz*
Oh, and the early-morning super nursing sessions shorted and became less intense when I moved my vitamins to the morning ~ I think some of the B vitamins (contributing to wakefulness) were getting through by about 3-4 am. Those nursing sessions are still longer and more restless, but they're better.

Vitamins! I keep forgetting to take them...
(but I usually take them in the morning)


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wakeUpMama*
I think there is not enough reliable information on "normal" toddler sleep that it is really hard to know what a reasonable expectation would be. I consider my son to be a "good sleeper" but OTOH he does wake anywhere from 2-5 times a night and nurses back to sleep. Some nights it bugs me more than others. I am very hesitant to restrict his night-nursing because his weight is so low (3rd %ile) and I worry about his nutrition intake. If he was a more average weight and a good eater I'd probably be leaning more toward discouraging night-nursing. I do wish there was better information on what is biologically normal so that people like the OP here would have a sense of whether or not something might be wrong. My suspicion is that most physicians would just tell you to use CIO and be shocked that you haven't done so already.

Thanks. Great post!


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## coleslaw (Nov 11, 2002)

MY dd is now 4. I finally got her to sleep through the night at about 3 1/2. She has dairy issues and maybe some others that would cause stomach cramping so I never wanted to nightwean since I knew there was a medical condition. But at 3 1/2, she was showing signs that the stomach issue wasn't as bad any more and was definitely lessoning. Also, I became pg (m/c) and the nursing HURT! I wasn't sleeping any more during the nursing. She was probably down to 2-3 nursings per night that only lasted about 15 seconds but it was enough to wake me up with a jolt. I decided to night wean her. It came with some tears (on both our parts) and anger (on her part), but I think it was time for us. It took that long for me to be ready and confident enough to give her the confidence she needed to tell herself that she can do this. She now sleeps through the night or if she wakes up, can fall back to sleep on her own as long as I am next to her. However, since nightweaning and since weaning completely she has developed eckezma (sp?) and has been sick 3 times and had her first ear infection, which was actually a double ear inflection requiring anti-biotics all of which I hate. So most of me is OK with my decision, but I wouldn't be me without self-doubt and guilt.









I only share my story as what I did since we have had similiar nighttime parenting experiences. I in no way am telling you this is what you should do. Here I am pg again and wondering if I am in for 3+ more years of horrible nights. UGH!


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## Vito's Mommy (Jan 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eman'smom*
Just wanted to say I'm with you, I'm so tired and angry.

I used to feel that way. And angry wasn't an emotion I wanted to carry around all night, let alone the next day. My son wouldn't sleep through the night and it made me cranky (not in an Austin Powers sort of way). I increased the size of his dinner and made sure that he went to bed soon after. It helped soooo much. For us, it was hunger. As for nursing, I stopped producing milk when ds was about 1.5. He still nursed for comfort until 5 months ago. Oddly enough it was a mutual decision. Now he falls asleep w/us and then goes into his toddler bed next to me covered in his stuffed "friends" and his firetruck blanket and sleeps through the night. I thought it would never happen, but alas! Now if i could only get this one early rising friend to not call at the crack of dawn I'd sleep through the night







Good luck to you!


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## RubyV (Feb 4, 2004)

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=244545

Maybe this is part of why he isn't sleeping well at night?


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

No - the other thread has nothing to do with this.

That is a very recent phenomenon of the past two weeks.

If anything, the "subconsciously trying to wean" issue would be a result of the lack of sleep for over three years.

The coffee doesn't seem to make a difference.

Coffee or no coffee (and I have tried elminating coffee for an extended period) his sleep patterns are the same.


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## RubyV (Feb 4, 2004)

I was thinking that if he wasn't nursing enough during the day, he may be reverse cycling. On my days off, my babe sleeps longer at night than when I work.


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

You have a very good point there, RubyV.

He is so busy during the day, that he can go long stretches (but usually only 5 hours or so) before nursing again.

But, OTOH, before he started preschool and had easy access to nursing all day long, his sleep patterns were the same or worse.


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## RubyV (Feb 4, 2004)

Chiropractic was great for my daughter. I can give you the name of the guy we used while we were living in NYC.

I'd also look into the food allergies. That can be huge with sleep.


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Oh, yes please give me the name!


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## OhMel (Oct 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UrbanPlanner*
Oh, here is his usual sleep/nursing schedule:

8:30-9pm nurse to sleep
10 or 11pm - wake to nurse back to sleep - 5-10 min
12:30 or 1am - wake to nurse back to sleep - 5-10 min
3 or 3:30 am - wake to nurse back to sleep, but this time it lasts for maybe 45 minutes
Crack-o-dawn - nurse for maybe two hours straight until he gets out of bed to greet the day at around 7 or 7:30 am.

If it is any consolation, this is my ds's schedule too. He is 28 months old. I thought the same thing when I read the Dr. Sears thing, but can't think of any real cause. He is terrified of our chiro, so that will have to wait until he is no longer wailing in the room. I have just decided to stick it out and am sorta hoping that if we get pregnant and the milk goes away for a few months he won't want to nurse at night. I don't want him to wean and will plan on tandem nursing, but I am hoping the potential lack of milk will inspire him to just sleep.


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## Geofizz (Sep 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UrbanPlanner*
I know that children naturally night-wean in due time, and naturally wean altogether when they are ready. I'm committed to this notion.

And I do sleep through many of the nursings at night - I often wake to find him latched on, but then I fall back to sleep pretty quickly.

But getting back to instinct: advice or no advice, I do think there comes a time when a mother chooses to set limits (and I do set reasonable limits - not trying to wean, but if nursing is inconvenient at that moment - like, if I'm sitting on the toilet - I see if DS can wait a bit) and I often wonder about nightweaning and weaning and child-led weaning (which is what we are doing). If I were to try to discourage the nursing at night - giving in to my need to sleep longer hours and having that need overrule DS' need - then everyone in the bed would lose sleep bc of the repurcussions. The need is that great.

My comments on your instincts were not about weaning or night weaning at all. I see that you are filling a need (be it comfort or hunger) by nursing because your son needs it. Period. However, if your instincts are telling you that there is something bothering him (allergy, sensitivity to the sheets, whatever) that can be aleviated to help improve his sleep, then that's all I was saying you should address. You were very clearly (at least as I read it) _not_ asking for weaning advice and I tried not to give it. Do your instincts tell you that his poor sleep is due to an allergy or sensitivity? That's all I was asking. I'm thinking that the fact that you posted this thread at all would mean that you think there might be something more (like an allergy) to your son's sleep issues.

ETA: LOL about the no coffee. I went off all caffeine for weeks only to find it had no effect of DD's sleep. When I got to the end of the 4 week trial, I dove back into the coffee pot and didn't look back!


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

geofizz - I wasn't referring to your post at all (as far as instincts) - it's just something I think about all the time - the difference between my instincts and advice.

Anyway - sorta like Ohmel said - before I read the Sears quote I didn't question it as much - the medical aspect anyway, even though the allergy thing has always been a guess. But if there really is something I could do (like Magnesium!!! did anyone see that thread!







) then I'll try it.


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## marice (May 6, 2004)

I hope the chiropractor works for you, but I have to say we have taken dd for multiple treatments, also tried cranial sacral therapy and saw a naturpath for maybe some hidden allergies...she still doesn't sleep longer than 2 hrs at a time.

I think I have almost accepted that it's just her temperment.


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## RubyV (Feb 4, 2004)

Dr. Jay Chait. His wife had 2 of their 5 kids at home unassisted. Very cool man. Came to the birth center to adjust me when my labor dragged on for weeks.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

It sounds like it could be reflux. Does he arch his back and do a high-pitched scream or squeal? We thought that my son had allergies and it turned out that he had "silent" reflux. He never spit up, but the acid was rising in his throat and causing him discomfort. He didn't start sleeping through the night until he was 2.5.


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

Adrianne,

Reverse cycling could still be the reason he hasn't slowed down, if he might otherwise have done so at this age. Especially if he isn't a great eater (in terms of nutrition, not just calories).

I don't have much milk at this point, so my dd can no longer handle hunger by nursing at night. I need to coin a term for the meal I must feed her *immediately* before bedtime, even when she ate dinner not that long ago, in order for her not to have trouble falling asleep! And she is almost 3.5 and will eat practically anything.


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## lifetapestry (Apr 14, 2003)

I do realize my absolute uncoolness in talking about night weaning, but I would like to point out that if a certain amount of BM is truly a need, a babe who is nightweaned (whether parent or child led) will make up what they are missing at night during the day. I clearly remember my son's longer nursing sessions at 5am and upon waking (I did and still do work about 30 hours/week) after being nightweaned.

Nightweaning will not stop babes who need a certain amount of BM or a certain amount of nursing for their nutrition and/or comfort. If you nightwean your child, s/he will make up what they truly "need" during the day. Nightweaning does not prohibit children from meeting their nursing needs, it simply shifts the window of availability for meeting those needs. A child who is "busy" during the day will take time to meet their needs.

It seems to me that there is a fair amount of fear around here around the subject of nightweaning. Conceptually, I see it as no different from setting boundaries or limits around nursing during the day. Quantitatively different, perhaps, but not qualitatively. In my family, it made sense to try it to improve everyone's sleep, including my nursling's. The fact that my son was distressed very little for very few nights validated my perception that waking every hour or two and having my nipple in his mouth for hours was not something he needed, but something he really liked doing. The fact that he very quickly developed the pattern of sleeping through the night until 5am (now it's 7am, after he was weaned from that 5am nursing sometime earlier this year) suggests that night nursing was a habit, not a need. The fact that he was able to get his nursing needs met during the day and continues to nurse 2 years beyond nightweaning leads me to believe that night nursing was not a need, either.

I'm not claiming that all toddlers who nurse all night are exactly like my son-- but my experience with nightweaning far from unique. Some toddlers may need to nurse because of medical issues, but I doubt they are in the majority. While I certainly agree that nursing, for nutrition and comfort, is a need for many toddlers, I can't get behind an assumption that this need is specific to a time of day- that they need to nurse at night.

If night nursing on demand works for you and your toddler, great. But if it doesn't work for you and/or them, attempting nightweaning, especially if there is a plan and a method like Dr. Gordon's, is nothing to be scared of-- IMO, blah blah blah.

Karla


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Eminer - what is reverse cycling?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifetapestry*
It seems to me that there is a fair amount of fear around here around the subject of nightweaning.

Who ever said anything about "fear"??? There is no fear here. It is just not an option. I'll try to explain why now:

1) I am presently committed to CLW, which, for me, includes the night.
2) I have tried to nightwean before, and it never went well.

2a) 1st time was at 5 months when the ped told me to let him CIO in the crib for five minutes (and stupid me listened) - well, it was a horrific five minutes where my dh and I were near tears while in the next room ds was hysterical. I retrieved him before the first five minutes were up and he never wanted to go near the crib again for many, many months. [We have co-slept from day one, but the crib (which was given to us) was right next to the kitchen, and sometimes I'd put him there when I had to make dinner or something.]

2b) The times after that whenever DS woke up he was always hysterical, unconsolable, and would not fall back to sleep without nursing; in fact, the longer I waited to console him with nursing, the more awake he became, thus making it much, much harder on all of us.

3) Over the years, I can see progress - but it is in infinitesimally small increments - towards better and longer stretches of sleep. This gives me hope, but it is happening so slowly!

4) I try to set limits at night - which is probably sort of an element of nightweaning, but more in line with the natural limits set in the nursing relationship - and some of the limits are accepted and others are resisted. I've tried to talk to DS about waiting until the sun comes up to nurse. He'll agree, but forget about the deal at 3 am. I've tried encouraging him to drink from a cup in the middle of the night. This works sometimes. I tell him that Mama needs to sleep, or the nursies are empty, or the nursies hurt, or...

The bottom line is, if my DS "needs" to nurse (and he will say these very words) it is very, very hard to dissuade him. A need that great, IMO, should be met. Therefore I am meeting it, but looking for other ideas to help his sleep and mine.

DS has never let DH comfort him back to sleep. He won't even let DH near him when he wakes up and wants Mama.

Oh, and I've read the NCSS and Dr. Jay Gordan's plan and both of them are a no-go in this household. They just won't work on my spirited DS.

Quote:

While I certainly agree that nursing, for nutrition and comfort, is a need for many toddlers, I can't get behind an assumption that this need is specific to a time of day- that they need to nurse at night.
Actually, the nighttime breastmilk is of a higher fat content and promotes growth and brain development in a baby and toddler. It is essential for babies to nurse at night. And for toddlers who might be distracted from nursing during the day and not eating so well, even moreso. Which is another reason why I don't believe in nightweaning.

And... if a child is prone to allergies, the breastmilk helps to dissipate allergies in a child. And if a child is going through a developmental period or growth spurt or stressful time or time of transition or.... the comfort of nursing, either in day or night, is essential. Parenting does not end when the lights go out, and if a child really needs to be nursed when it's dark and possibly scary, then so be it. Oh... my DS is afraid of the dark... (and we do have a nightlight, but he still wants to nurse).


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## lifetapestry (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UrbanPlanner*

Much snippage:

4) I try to set limits at night - which is probably sort of an element of nightweaning, but more in line with the natural limits set in the nursing relationship - and some of the limits are accepted and others are resisted. I've tried to talk to DS about waiting until the sun comes up to nurse. He'll agree, but forget about the deal at 3 am. I've tried encouraging him to drink from a cup in the middle of the night. This works sometimes. I tell him that Mama needs to sleep, or the nursies are empty, or the nursies hurt, or...

Setting limits around any behavior encourages healthy boundaries. If parents always back down from limits if children "resist" through crying or other signs of distress, then you are not really setting limits. You can be loving while explaining the limits, you can offer comfort for the limits, and otherwise help your child feel okay about sticking to those limits. What you are talking about, which is offering varied (and some dishonest) explanations for limits is not a practice that is likely going to bring much success. If you truly want to set limits on night time nursing as opposed to night weaning, then you need to decide on an explanation for the limits, stick to it, talk about it frequently, and even rehearse it before night time.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UrbanPlanner*
The bottom line is, if my DS "needs" to nurse (and he will say these very words) it is very, very hard to dissuade him. A need that great, IMO, should be met. Therefore I am meeting it, but looking for other ideas to help his sleep and mine.

My son will sometimes use the word "need" to nurse during the day -- I note the use of the word but that does not mean that he is expressing an actual need. Instead, he's learned that that is the magic word to use if he wants to nurse.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UrbanPlanner*
Actually, the nighttime breastmilk is of a higher fat content and promotes growth and brain development in a baby and toddler. It is essential for babies to nurse at night. And for toddlers who might be distracted from nursing during the day and not eating so well, even moreso. Which is another reason why I don't believe in nightweaning.

Do you have a citation for this factual statement about nighttime breastmilk?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UrbanPlanner*
And... if a child is prone to allergies, the breastmilk helps to dissipate allergies in a child. And if a child is going through a developmental period or growth spurt or stressful time or time of transition or.... the comfort of nursing, either in day or night, is essential.

I don't believe either one of these statements is accurate. The research on the prevention of allegies and breastfeeding shows a much more limited benefit, which is simply preventing allergies altogether in children who are BF for their first 6 months of life, compared to FF kids. I certainly could be wrong and I'm more than happy to be pointed to a reference that supports this, but there isn't any research on the prevention of allergies for extended breastfeeding. Even if extended breastfeeding prevents allergies, there is no research that demonstrates that continuing to BF will make symptoms of allergies less severe.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UrbanPlanner*
Parenting does not end when the lights go out, and if a child really needs to be nursed when it's dark and possibly scary, then so be it. Oh... my DS is afraid of the dark... (and we do have a nightlight, but he still wants to nurse).

I recognize the first clause in your first statement as a quote from Dr. Sears, but "parenting" does not require that your three year old must have a nipple in his mouth at any possible time of the night in order to grow his brain, meet his daily nutritional needs, or to help him be less afraid of the dark. I don't find any of your reasons for night nursing to be compelling, and in fact they sound like you are grasping at straws to justify the status quo. Personally, I don't have any problem with you or anyone else nursing your kid in whatever ways that you want. But if you're going to put out statements of fact that it is necessary for toddlers to nurse at night (as opposed to your child simply "needs" it), then I'm going to ask that you back up those factual statements with research that supports them.

Karla


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

I have to add one more to that list:
a child prone to allergies may not be getting adequate nutrition from solids, either because he refuses to eat a well-balanced diet, or because his body just can't digest certain foods well. These children need to nurse that much more than others! They have a higher need for the milk, and also a higher need for the comfort. AP means we strive to meet our children's needs.

But this thread is about nightwaking, not nightweaning, and I don't think we should be debating nightweaning here.


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stafl*
I have to add one more to that list:
a child prone to allergies may not be getting adequate nutrition from solids, either because he refuses to eat a well-balanced diet, or because his body just can't digest certain foods well. These children need to nurse that much more than others! They have a higher need for the milk, and also a higher need for the comfort. AP means we strive to meet our children's needs.

But this thread is about nightwaking, not nightweaning, and I don't think we should be debating nightweaning here.









RIGHT!

The issue IS nightwaking.


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

*


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

I thought the knowledge that increased prolactin during night hours led to increased fat in the bmilk was well known? I've certainly read it in more than once source (though they may all be self-referential). I'll look a bit, but I *think* it may have been in Sear's NightTime Parenting book, I'm not sure though (I don't own that book anymore).

UrbanPlanner---

Quote:

3) Over the years, I can see progress - but it is in infinitesimally small increments - towards better and longer stretches of sleep. This gives me hope, but it is happening so slowly!
This, honestly, leads me to believe you are just dealing with a child who will night wean very late. Or, at least that is what I tell myself. I remember clearly DS only going 1-2 hours and now I am *faily* confident (remember, I haven't slept a full night for going on 7 years, lol, I can't be *sure* of anything) that he is going 2-3 hours at night. Also, he is getting easier and easier to latch off. After he has taken both sides (which doesn't take long at this point) I can pop him off, roll over, he might snuggle in or roll over and then we're both back asleep. Two years ago he would have needed to nurse not only more often, but longer and it would have been torture trying to get him *off.*

I do think that he (my son) would be fairly easy to night wean. Last summer before he turned 3 (he has an August B-day) I night-weaned him for 7-10 days. Well, down to a 4-5 hour stretch. It was very easy, but as soon as he got a bit sick (like 8 days from day 1 later) it was back to normal. Those few days convinced me not only that he would eventually night wean, but that I didn't need him to (but those nights of not being nursed constantly were really nice). I, too, am committed (at least so far) to as much of CLW that I can do. I still feel large amounts of guilt over my nightweaning of DD and the effects I feel it had on her long term nursing pattern. I plan to reevaluate at 4 years if he is not going 4-5 hours by then. We will see.

I know there are some others out there whose children (now older) did not nightwean until after 3-3.5 so I am very much hoping they will weigh in. I have no BTDT advice, just lots of sympathy. I'd sugest a "still nursing through the night at 3 Support Thread" but I think it might be down to you and me


















Kay


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

I just read through that thread, and you received some wonderful replies. Who is slamming you?


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

Lifetapestry,

You appear to be responding from the perspective of someone who had an easy time nightweaning a child, in a situation where you truly personally believed that nightweaning was important, which is great. Nightweaning is often discussed without reference to the natural readiness of the child being nightweaned. It tends to be more like, "I can't take this anymore, and my child is xyo, so that *should* be old enough..." If you had ever tried denying night nursing -- even by simply not being present -- to a child who does really need it, I think you would clearly see the difference. Frankly, not all children are ready to accept limits to daytime nursing at the same age, either.

Quote:

Setting limits around any behavior encourages healthy boundaries. If parents always back down from limits if children "resist" through crying or other signs of distress, then you are not really setting limits.
On this view, it would seem that there would be no way to adjust after listening to your child. Sometimes, we guess wrong at what our children are ready for, or what would be the right way to handle a situation. Cutting off all but one-sided communication with another person in the name of consistency shows profound disrespect. Continuing to act when you sense that you are doing wrong is *not* a sign of strong character or a healthy sense of personal boundaries!


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## Liliana (Jan 13, 2004)

I only got through the first page of replies to the other thread, but it definitely sounds like you should get him tested for allergies. You mention two symptoms besides poor sleep. They learn to nurse less on their own. My two year old keeps giving me glimpses of this. Before her last cold she was nursing at bedtime and then again at 4am (pretty much continuously from then til I got up.) Then she got sick. If your little one has never stretched out those intervals and has some allergies you should definitely look into it.

One thing I do sometimes if I'm needing more space at night is to sleep somewhere not in the bed with my DD until her first nursing request (when I come to bed.) It helps me get better sleep for a few hours.


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

Reverse cycling is increasing night nursing to make up for decreased (or at least, insufficient) daytime nursing. This happened to me in a major way when I went back to work after a summer break. That's a classic case. Someone else (sorry someone else, I forgot which someone else you were) suggested reverse cycling, and you said your ds has always nursed this way at night. It occurred to me that if your ds has decreased his day nursing but not his night nursing, it's possible that this is a variation on reverse cycling. Maybe if you tried encouraging him to increase the day nursing, he would naturally be ready to decrease the night nursing. On the other hand, there is always the risk that he would simply end up nursing all the time around the clock, so I can see where you might not want to experiment. 

I really admire how you are handling this whole thread, situation, etc.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Sorry I didn't respond to the reverse cycling earlier!

DD started reverse cycling when she got interested in the world around 5 months. Later she just went back to nursing 24/7


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)




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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

It sounds gastrointestinal. If you don't get him evaluated by some kind of medical professional, you aren't going to figure out what is going on. It isn't normal for a child that age to be waking/crying in that kind of pattern. It could be behavioral, but often times behavioral issues have medical causes.

If your child has an allergy to a food and is breastfeeding after you have consumed the food he is allergic, or just intolerant, of, breastfeeding is making it worse, not better. I'm not suggesting that you stop breastfeeding, I breastfed through almost a year of food intolerances, but you need to find out what is going on. Some of the information you went over in the other thread regarding breastfeeding and allergies is just inaccurate. If he does have intolerances or allergies, his body might not be absorbing the nutrients he needs and this might explain his increased need to nurse at night.

Assuming that there are no underlying medical issues, which I don't think could be ruled out, I'm not sure how to go about curbing nightwaking in a child that is breastfed on demand at night-- especially a child that is old enough to understand that if he wants it, he'll get it. By this age, most children wake up several times a night and then go back to sleep on their own. Clearly he can't go back to sleep on his own. He needs to nurse to do so. I don't know that there is a way to get a child to sleep in longer stretches. Just because children this age don't wake us up several times a night doesn't mean that they are not waking up-- children this age don't necessarily sleep in longer stretches, they just disturb us less because they get themselves back to sleep.

I'm not really sure what you are looking for. I want to support you, but you don't seem open to any suggestions. Nightwaking is something that we ALL do, you can't stop that. You can only adjust how you deal with it.


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

I _am_ open to suggestions, but I keep saying that I don't want to nightwean and that seems to be the recurring theme of the posts. I think exploring the reasons behind his need to nurse at night is more compelling at this point.

Quote:

Some of the information you went over in the other thread regarding breastfeeding and allergies is just inaccurate.
Mothra, can you be more specific? Are you referring to something I said, or something else that was posted?


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

_Originally Posted by UrbanPlanner
And... if a child is prone to allergies, the breastmilk helps to dissipate allergies in a child. And if a child is going through a developmental period or growth spurt or stressful time or time of transition or.... the comfort of nursing, either in day or night, is essential._

This is inaccurate. Breastfeeding does not "dissipate" allergies. There is some evidence that it can reduce the risk of allergies in breastfed children, but to my knowledge there is no evidence that breastfeeding is an antidote to allergies. If your child is allergic to a food and you are eating the food, the child is essentially getting that food through your breastmilk. Unless you eliminate the food that your child is allergic to from your diet, breastfeeding could be causing a reaction in your child.

Like I said, there are two possible explanations for why your child needs to nurse at night--- medical and behavioral. Medical-- you have to find out what the problem is, if one exists, before you can solve it. Behavioral-- you have to find other ways to help your child get back to sleep other than nursing or he will continue to nurse every time he wakes up. Like I said in my previous post-- all children wake up at night. Adults do, too. By this age, most children are capable of getting themselves back to sleep and do not bother us. We never even know they wake up. Even children who are breastfed on demand do this-- get back to sleep without nursing. For some reason, your son can't. Either he needs to nurse to get back to sleep or there is something causing him discomfort and he needs to nurse for the comfort. If it does turn out that there is not a medical reason and he simply needs to nurse to get back to sleep, I don't see any other way to stop him from waking you up each time he wakes than to stop allowing him to nurse each time he wakes up. He won't learn to fall asleep on his own that way. Under your name it says "Ecological Breastfeeder". I'm familiar with ecological breastfeeding and if you are committed to nursing him each time he asks for it, that is certainly your perogative, but you aren't going to get more sleep. It is a common misconception that some children nightwake and others don't-- all of them do. I can't say that enough. It is just that most children, but 18 months or so, are able to get themselves back to sleep.


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Stafl, Tired, Eminer, I







you Mamas!

Tired:

Quote:

This, honestly, leads me to believe you are just dealing with a child who will night wean very late. Or, at least that is what I tell myself. I remember clearly DS only going 1-2 hours and now I am *faily* confident (remember, I haven't slept a full night for going on 7 years, lol, I can't be *sure* of anything) that he is going 2-3 hours at night. Also, he is getting easier and easier to latch off. After he has taken both sides (which doesn't take long at this point) I can pop him off, roll over, he might snuggle in or roll over and then we're both back asleep. Two years ago he would have needed to nurse not only more often, but longer and it would have been torture trying to get him *off.*
that's it in a nutshell. Since last summer I have found it much easier to get him to sleep/back to sleep/off the nipple/sleep without nursing.

Quote:

I know there are some others out there whose children (now older) did not nightwean until after 3-3.5 so I am very much hoping they will weigh in. I have no BTDT advice, just lots of sympathy. I'd sugest a "still nursing through the night at 3 Support Thread" but I think it might be down to you and me
yeah... where are they??? I know you Mamas are here somewhere! I was hoping to hear from you! Great idea about the thread. I may start it straight away.............

Quote:

Setting limits around any behavior encourages healthy boundaries. If parents always back down from limits if children "resist" through crying or other signs of distress, then you are not really setting limits.
So I should not respect my son's feelings or reactions? Should I always invalidate his needs in the name of limits? No... that's not my style. And, yes, I do draw the line in many ways. I have zero tolerance for hitting or throwing fragile things etc. for example; or, there is no contest when it comes to holding hands when we cross the street.... BUT... when I am dealing with a nurturing relationship with my DS - something he has known his entire life as a source of food, comfort, you-name-it... I'm not gonna turn it into a test of wills. I will respect him and heed his expressions of need while trying to assemble a balance in our relationship.

Cheers to all of you who have not lived with a spirited, high-need child who resists nightweaning. Count your blessings.


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Mothra, I know all children have shorter sleep cycles, and some wake and soothe back to sleep, and others don't.

OK, I just thought of an analogy. How about kids with pacis??? I know sooooooooo many kids who sleep with a pacifier. Same thing as a nipple. And so many of them use the pacis until ages 2, 3, 4 and beyond.

And, yes, my DS has learned to wake and go back to sleep on his own, bc he does not need me every single time he wakes now. I see him stir and fuss and go back to sleep. BUT, he still needs comforting several times a night (just not as many times as before).

I think it's probably really hard to imagine my situation unless one has lived it or in a similar situation.

As for the word "dissipate" - what I meant by the word when I typed it was more like what you are writing here, Mothra - reducing the risk. But I do believe that the longer a child breastfeeds, the lower the risk for allergies is.

Yes, I call myself "ecological breastfeeder" but I am not nursing at every turn. I certainly do put ds off often enough. He might go 8 hours at a stretch on a busy day.

Anyway, I went out and bought a bottle of magnesium - had the health food store guy show me the right one for a 3 year old. I will try it tonight, and see if it helps. I'm also going to schedule an appointment with an allergist.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

But if your child already has allergies, breastfeeding isn't going to do anything to make them go away. Again, if you are eating foods that he is allergic to, breastfeeding him is exposing him to the allergen.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

And I _have_ been through this. For almost two years I dealt with this until we found out that my son had silent reflux and food intolerance issues. He has since outgrown each of them. He was up screaming and carrying on for hours at a time every single night for months, prior to that and after that he just got up to nurse half-dozen times a night.


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

I was under the impression that a child can be susceptible to allergies, but by breastfeeding he can avoid them altogether - never become allergic.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

That is not accurate.

http://www.lalecheleague.org/NB/NBJulAug98p100.html

Breastfed babies can have allergies. Just like breastfed babies can get ear infections, get colic, and have diaper rashes. Those things are statistically less likely, but can't be ruled out for an individual child. My son was breastfed exclusively for almost eight months and still developed food intolerances. I know plenty of children who were breastfed exclusively for at least six months and then well past a year that have allergies. Just because a child is breastfed does not mean that the child will not develop food allergies or intolerances.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Mothra---I took "UrbanPlanner's" (sorry I just CANNOT get used to that name!!!) comment to mean that a child's chance at developing allergies, even a child predisposed to developing allergies, is lessened by bfeeding.

I don't think she meant that if you bfeed you CANNOT have allergies. Just that it is less likely.


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

yes tired, that's what I meant








and I believe that is what the LLL link says, too

nak

btw I might change it - I can't get used to it either


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Have you tried magnesium? Or a flax supplement (it's helpful for allergies)


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## darlindeliasmom (Nov 19, 2001)

UrbanPlanner...I am sorry. I DID write a long answer when I was at the computer this afternoon, but then incredibly stupidly erased the whole thing before sending it...

Yes, you can survive. Yes, some babes do nightwake like your child without allergies being involved. Yes, the mothers of those spirited babies/toddlers/preschoolers lose a lot of sleep. I'm so far on the other side of that tunnel it is receding into the distance, but your posts are helping me remember.

I do think, given the excema, that your lil guy is allergic. Isn't excema also called atopic (allergic) dermatitis? That is my memory, anyway. I think it will be worth exploring that idea.


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Well, we both took a shot of magnesium just a few minutes ago so we'll see what it does for us tonight.

I will definately explore allergies. I've always suspected them. And the dermatologist who look at ds' skin suggested allergies, too.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

UrbanPlanner, I finally registered after 4 years of lurking to let you know you're not alone. My ds is 3.5 and finally sleeps a 5 hour stretch most nights. A year ago, he usually slept 4 hours at the beginning of the night, then nursed every hour or two til dawn, then constantly til we got up. He used to never go back to sleep without nursing but now will roll over and go back to sleep (assuming he can feel me, otherwise he wakes all the way up) with increasing frequency. As an infant, he could never stay asleep without physical contact and I still need to lay down with him for naps, as well as all night. When his prolonged nursing starts to really bother me during the night, I'll whisper "let's roll over and go to sleep now." He'll either clamber over me and nurse on the other side or he'll roll over and go to sleep. My mom, who breastfed 7, felt night nursing was the last to go. Right now, we only nurse at naptime and nighttime unless someone's sick. When he turned 3, we nursed an additional 2 times during the day. So it's getting better, but oh so slowly. I have a 7 month nephew whom I have just been informed has slept an 11 hour night. It makes me want to cry with jealousy and fatigue.


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

My older dd was/is spirited, high needs, yadda, yadda, yadda. She was exclusively breastfed for 5 3/4 months (I couldn't stand it any longer!







) and then weaned at 39 months. I'm not an ecological breastfeeder, I did nightwean, but she has virtually no allergies. She gets little bumps on her arms and cheeks if she eats a lot of wheat, and we avoid some of the stuff on the Feingold list to improve her behavior, but that's it. She is very healthy. And this with a very strong family history of allergies. Yay breastfeeding!

My second, unfortunately, was not so lucky. She had some formula at birth and developed leaky gut syndrome. So, even though she is EBF, she is still very allergic. OTOH, I think it is likely they would have been much worse had she not been breastfed. She still developed them, just not as bad. My niece is the same. Lots of allergies, but very mild compared to members of her family who are asthmatic, etc. She has not had formula.

Eczema is not a medical term. A PP is right that the correct term is atopic or allergic dermatitis. The fact that your son has this means that he is definitely allergic. It will take some work to find out to what. It is not feasible to test for food allergies in young children, it isn't highly accurate even in adults, but less so in children. You will probably need to do an elimination diet. There's a good book called "Is This Your Child?" by Doris Rapp. You can also try probiotics and NAET. You mentioned you have a mainstream ped and that you tried CIO at five months. Did your ds recieve any early feedings or ever get formula? Even one feeding of formula can cause leaky gut in susceptible individuals.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

4evermom










Glad you decided to register and hope you stick around!!!

Urban---

How did it go???????

Kay


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

4evermom - thank you so much for your post, and welcome to MDC as a non-lurker









sofiamomma - thank you, too, for your post and the information. As for the ped and my ds, I have used her for the basic well-visits and once or twice for a sick vist, but I don't take her advice on feeding or parenting (except for the very one time I made the mistake of taking the CIO advice, which was actually given to me by her partner; I actually like my ped for the most part, and like that I am a billboard for breastfeeding success in her practice).
Since I am actively involved in LLL and a Leader Applicant, I've had a lot of support from my group. I've never given DS formula; he's never used a pacifier; he started solids late - like after 8 months; but even so he didn't really eat more than a bite or two of food on any given day (and skipped many days) until he was at least 15 months old. He didn't have a great appetite for meals until well past 18 months. I can't say that he ever ate an entire sandwich until he was at least two years old. So, basically, for the first two years of his life, he hardly ate anything beyond oatmeal for breakfast (the real oatmeal; not the baby stuff).

The dermatologist suggested that DS is atopic. I just can't imagine doing an elimination diet, as he still eats so few foods and not great quantities to this day. I've always chalked up his resistance to food and his dependence on breastfeeding to be his body's natural inclination to avoid developing allergies by avoiding potential allergens. Still, something is still getting in his system that he does agree with. Yes, it could be from what I eat, but I am on such a similar diet as he is (I'm too lazy to make multiple meals, so we eat the same stuff). His allergy is probably to either wheat, soy, or some fruit (prolly strawberries, but he hasn't had those in a while since they are out of season). Or milk, but he doesn't have milk beyond cheese or yogurt. And what scares me is that these are the staples of his diet, so if it is milk _and_ soy _and_ wheat I've got a problem. I have lots of trouble getting him to eat vegetables (beyond tomato sauce) but fruit is not a problem.

Anyway, I've been thinking a lot about this thread since last night - I was bummed about the nightweaning advice that I initially got and I wanted to say this about it: this thread has always been about questioning the possible medical causes for nightwaking. So, if, in fact, my DS has a medical cause for nightwaking, then I would think that that would be the most important issue to address, not how to nightwean him. Especially if nightnursing seems to be the only thing that helps him get through the night bc of this possible medical issue. Why must nightweaning be such a knee-jerk response to the question of nightwaking?

And, as far as allergies and breastfeeding: my sister was breastfed, and has asthema and all sorts of allergies; spent much of her childhood in oxygen tents. I was _not_ breastfed and am the healthiest person on the block. Go figure. So I know that breastfeeding is not a definate cure-all for allergies. But if there is a predisposition for allergies in a baby/toddler, then the breastmilk from the mother provides immunity to help the baby deal with the potential allergy. I think that at night a lot of growing is going on, and probably digestion from later-day meals, and the body is having to deal with so many things that if a body is uncomfortable from the results of growth spurts or digestion or whatever, then nursing can become an essential way of dealing with that discomfort.

Well, whatever the case, I have tried before and just don't want to try again the experiment of trying to soothe and coax my child to fall back to sleep without nursing or seeing if my child can do it on his own while all the while he is crying hysterically.

I started a "nightwaking nurser over the age of 2" thread in CLW if anyone is interested in checking it out.


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Oh, Tired - I forgot to reply to your post...
I think the magnesium worked really well, but last night was a bit off bc DS didn't fall asleep until 11pm. He did, however, sleep soundly until 3:30 am, and since I went to sleep at 11pm with him, I got a good 4 1/2 hours of sleep in a row!









Then he woke again around 6am and nursed until 7 or 7:30 when he got up. I think I got up at 8am.

I feel much more rested today.

I will try the magnesium again tonight and tomorrow and tomorrow.............


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Sounds like a great night. Keep me posted, okay?


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UrbanPlanner*
Oh, Tired - I forgot to reply to your post...
I think the magnesium worked really well, but last night was a bit off bc DS didn't fall asleep until 11pm. He did, however, sleep soundly until 3:30 am, and since I went to sleep at 11pm with him, I got a good 4 1/2 hours of sleep in a row!









Then he woke again around 6am and nursed until 7 or 7:30 when he got up. I think I got up at 8am.

I feel much more rested today.

I will try the magnesium again tonight and tomorrow and tomorrow.............










Whee







We love magnesium in this house. Do you use the Floradix brand or the CALM powder?
Have you also considered giving him daily flax oil for his eczema? You can also take 8 capsules Evening Primrose oil per day and he'll get it through your milk.


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

We got the Floradix liquid, but it's pricey - I wonder if I should try Calm?
Should he eat the flax oil or should I rub it on his skin? I used to try to get him to eat Flax oil a long time ago but he never liked it, although that was when he was 10 or 11 months old. Maybe I could sneak it into his fruit shakes or oatmeal or yogurt/granola... Is evening primrose oil in tea?

thanks for the advice


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## Rainbow Brite (Nov 2, 2004)

nak

what about trying naet for allergy testing/treatment?


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Yeah, I was going to come back and say try NAET, too. He's a tough one UP. I would be scared of an elimination diet, too! I did wheat free for dd1 for awhile, and while it was not that difficult it gets more so as she gets older, particularly since it is just not the same, taste wise!

I think you are right on track as far as what breastfeeding is doing for your ds. I know, at least anecdotally, I'm not sure if there is a scientific study, that allergy prone children tend to delay solids for a loooong time. It helps protect them. I would wager that he is indeed allergic to one of your staples and is getting it in his, or yours thru the milk, diet, or both. Feingold says people tend to crave what they are allergic to. That made it easier to pinpoint my older one's sensitivities (the things that make her bounce off the walls). It sounds like there is nothing medically wrong (from what I can tell over the internet! :LOL) with your ds, other than being a highly allergic individual. I'll bet NAET would really, really help him. It reorganizes the energy pathways so the body does not respond to everyday things as foreign invaders. It's like the immune system has gone haywire due to all the toxic elements in our world today that we are bombarded with. NAET corrects that. One of the first things they work with is protein, so that the body can assimilate and utilize the amino acids, basic building blocks. It helps the little ones grow better. Another one is minerals. Gradually the body can tolerate more and more foods. Hopefully he will be able to eat more and wake to nurse less. I've seen a difference in my dd with only a few treatments.

You may even be able to get it covered by insurance, particularly if it is done by a chiro. A lot of insurance plans cover them these days.


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Do you know what NAET stands for?
Would a ped do this, or homeopath?
I guess I really should look for a chiro now, huh.


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

I stumbled across this thread and wanted to share (though I admit I only skimmed this VERY long thread so my advance apologies if something has already been covered)

My first babe bf for an extended period. He was a decent (not great) sleeper, pretty pleasant, etc. etc.

My second babe bf exclusively until solids were introduced, never had formula, screamed BLOODY murder if I even handed his to dh to go to the bathroom, slept AWFUL.

They both had eczema though in ds #2 it was much worse. As ds #2 got older the severity of his allergies became more obvious - cow's milk once spilled out of another child's bottle and made contact with his skin and he blistered. It was awful. He self-weaned at about 15 months....and immediately his skin looked better and he slept better. I took him to an allergist and he is extremely allergic to dairy, eggs, and all nightshade veggies. He is still not a great night sleeper and is still who he is but is much happier and more restful now that I am protecting him from exposure to foods that HURT him. I wish I had seen the allergist before the weaning happened - I would have eliminated all of these foods myself and he may still be a restful nursing babe....

Anyway, I would see an allergist immediately. Some allergies are made worse by ongoing exposure to the proteins that the body is fighting. Your original question was a good one - I believe that Dr. Sear's was saying that it is dangerous to let babes CIO if medical problems are a possibility - I believe that continuing to nurse without treating the root problem is just as unfair to your child. There are few things in my life that I regret as much as nursing my baby after eating certain veggies -what a long and uncomfortable night I unkonwingly exposed him to


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

wildmonkeys - Thank you







How did the allergist determine your ds' allergies? Through a blood test?


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

Hey UrbanPlanner - I am still up too (old habits die hard







) Anyway, the allergist just did a scratch test of targeted foods on his arm. Anything that swelled up we were asked to avoid for two weeks before going back to talk with her - the change in him was amazing







My poor sweetie had been having such a hard time and this made it clear how much of it had to do with how lousy he felt.

There are great allergy cookbooks and this has made him so much happier and more restful....I don't just mean at night either....he used to scratch so much (even when it looked like there was nothing to scratch at) and just cry alot...now he is such a funny easy-going little guy.

Talk to your Ped - fight them if they just send you to a dermo Dr. to talk about his dry skin....I have been down that path with both kids (I actually suspect that my older ds had allergies he outgrew since his eczema went away at about 3...when he was weaned and earned his rep as a "picky eater"







) I mean treating eczema is worthwhile...but if the problem is coming from inside there is no respite for your baby except finding out what to avoid.

Feel free to email me directly if I can be of more help - you are a champ for hanging in this long.

Hugs to you, your dh, and your babe!
Night!
Barney & Ben


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## Rainbow Brite (Nov 2, 2004)

http://www.naet.com

I'm doing this now, for me and dd.


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Definitely check out that website. I personally would steer clear of traditional allopathic allergy treatments. It sounds like wildmonkeys has had good success with it, but those scratch tests, and the blood tests, are fairly unreliable for food allergies in children.

NAET stands for Narumbipad's (sp?) Allergy Elimination Technique. It is named for the doctor that developed it. She has a few books out as well, one specifically for children. I think your ds would have great success with this method. The member by the name of L.J. used this with her son and her story is really amazing.

If I remember right the website above has a way to search for providers in your area. The one we go to is a chiroprator. They tend to have fairly reasonable prices because it is often not covered by insurance. Dd's treatments have been about $40 each ($65 for the initial), but we have put them on hold to do network spinal analysis.


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## numomnalaska (Jun 27, 2004)

Can someone explain what Magnessium does for your night situation? I read all replies, sorry if I overlooked it.

Thanks


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numomnalaska*
Can someone explain what Magnessium does for your night situation? I read all replies, sorry if I overlooked it.

Thanks









Here's a site with a brief overview of magnesium http://www.yearstoyourhealth.com/nat...magnesium.html


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## numomnalaska (Jun 27, 2004)

Thanks kavamama


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