# Daughters seeing Papa naked



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

No big deal? No way?

For whatever reason, I became uncomfortable with Dd seeing Dh naked at a little past one year of age. He thought is was weird and a little unfair, because she and I continue to bathe together so the rules clearly didn't apply to me. And it didn't bother me for him to change her dipe, dress her or see her naked.

I guess my own dad always was very private about his own nudity (not ours) and maybe that defined my views on the subject.

Also, what would that mean if I had a son? I know it wouldn't bother me for Dh and our son to see each other naked. But would I eventually become modest in front of my son? Not really sure...

What's it like in your household?

ETA: obviously I should have had an 'other' category (some households don't have two different genders of parents living together!) but it looks like poll editing isn't allowed.


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## Dael (Jan 1, 2007)

My DD is 13 months old, she sees DH naked, and he bathe her, most of the time.
About my 6 year old boys, I mean they're my kids, I don't see a problem if they see me naked.
We're pretty open about nudity in this house.

Oh and DD follows DH everywhere he goes and she sees him naked all the time


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## teachma (Dec 20, 2002)

We're pretty fine with the naked thing in our house. My 6 year old son regularly sees me naked, and he has never behaved in any way awkwardly about that. My daughter, nearly 3, occasionally sees her dad naked but he (dh) is not the type to walk around the house unclothed as I am.







She will go into the bathroom when he's there, unclothed, and I don't think it makes anyone uncomfortable. If he was more often naked around dd, I also don't think that would bother me at all.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

I put it's not a big deal, but I just had my first girl.







DH isn't often naked around the kids like I am since he's gone before they wake up a lot of times while I still have to shower around them and get dressed etc. So far I have no problems w/ the boys seeing me and I'm hoping I'll feel the same for Ilana seeing DH, but it does sort of sit funny w/ me right now already.


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## TexasSuz (Mar 4, 2002)

Not a big deal here until around age 8 or so. Then girls can see mama and boys can see dad but if they see the other accidently then I would not make a big deal about it.


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## JamieCatheryn (Dec 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TexasSuz* 
Not a big deal here until around age 8 or so. Then girls can see mama and boys can see dad but if they see the other accidently then I would not make a big deal about it.









:

I don't have a girl yet but this is how I feel about it, maybe avoid it from toddlerhood on but hey no biggie.


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

DS is 6.5 and we still bathe together, shower together. He does so with his dad as well. Usually if we're in a rush to get somewhere all three of us (me, DS and BF) are in the shower together.

I can't imagine it'd be different if BF and I had a girl. I saw my dad naked lots growing up (skinny dipping at the lake, getting changed at the pool etc) no problem. We all have bodies so for me it's no big deal.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I think it's fine as long as both the dad and the girl are comfortable with it. Since my girls' dad no longer lives with us, and they don't have sleepovers at his place, it's become something that just doesn't happen and I know my girls would be very uncomfortable if they happened to walk in on him changing his clothes or something. I'm not sure how it would have worked out if we'd stayed together, but I know that he bathed with them at 3-4 years old and it was no big deal.

DS nursed until he was over 4 years old- I certainly had no problem with him seeing me nude before he weaned! Now he's over 5 and we still share a bedroom, he doesn't like to go to the bathroom alone, etc, so he often sees me changing my clothes, I'll use the toilet while he's in there since I have to endure watching him use it, etc. At some point he'll get uncomfortable with seeing me naked and/or undressing in front of me and then we'll take turns and close the door while changing.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

I checked the last one, although I don't feel quite as hostile about it as you seem to









We have two little ones, a two year old boy and a nearly one year old girl. We have a small house, one bathroom, and we're all comfortable with each other. We don't run around naked (well, except the two year old







), but if someone happens to be in the room when we're changing, eh, no big deal.

Here's a funny story to relate:

When I was about 2 WEEKS old, my mother brought me into her bedroom where my father was changing. My father screamed and jumped into the closet. When my mom asked what was wrong he yelled, "Take her out! She can't see me naked!"

I wonder if he knew I probably couldn't see much farther than 8 inches a way at that point?


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

It didn't really become a 'problem' until my ds started becoming embarrassed. That happened at around 8 like a pp mentioned. At six it was no biggie.

All three of my kids still walk in on me in the bathroom but my ds12 and 9 will back track when they realize I am changing or on the potty...... I'm not concerned about it but they seem to be aware so I respect their feelings. My 12 year old will be 13 in two weeks and I am cognizant of his maturity. He mentioned to me the other day that he couldn't help it, but he can't stop staring at girls who wear low shirts at school. So now, honestly, I worry about his feelings when I wear my bra around the house......

My dd11 and I still shower together. My boys see daddy naked all the time. My dd is very comfortable around her dad and his nudity. She doesn't flinch or blink. He, on the other hand, is careful around her. He will cover up when she comes in. Also, she is not in the least bit concerned about nudity around him or her brothers (which started becoming a problem lately - but I won't derail the thread and start discussing siblings!)

ETA - I finally noticed the poll only mentioned toddlers...... My kids totally do not count for toddlers. As toddlers - it is completely acceptable for dads and daughters to see each other. My response to the poll probably shouldn't count now......


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

My kids are 2,4 and 6. Dh is naked much of the time at home, he's comfortable that way. I don't like being naked. Never really did care for it, but if the kids see me, I don't care. I leave the bathroom door open when I shower, so I cna hear if anything happens. If/when they start getting modest about it, we'll cover up.


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

No hang-ups here. But I will cover up if/when asked to.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

No big deal. I saw my dad naked until at least high school... it was never an issue









-Angela


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## Tuesday (Mar 3, 2003)

I don't have daughters but feel nudity it okay until a child (or adult) expresses discomfort. What feels right or wrong for one person is individual. My 3.5 year old DS sees me naked all the time and I guess I feel I'll start covering up a bit once he gets into school and seem develop his own boundaries. DH, on the other hand, is very private about his body and I don't even think he feels comfortable letting DS see him naked!


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

I dont care if dd or ds sees either one of us nekked.







: my dh tho got uncomfortable with dd seeing him nekked around the time she turned 2yo. In his words "She is staring at IT"







so he usually dosnt go nekked any more at all. Me I walk thru the house sans clothing constantly







I dont know when or if my attitude will change but I want my kids to feel comfortable not only with their bodies but others as well.

If either one ever says anything I will respect that. But until then it just dosnt matter.


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## Peony (Nov 27, 2003)

DH is naked most of the time he is at home, our oldest DD is 4. We have no issues with nudity at all, and will continue to be naked, if they don;t want to see when they get older, then they don't have to look.









My dad was NEVER naked in front of me as a child, and it took me years to be comfortable with nudity.


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

I'm all for helping Leila feel confident with her self, her body & people in general.... However, I was also sexually abused as a preschooler by my neighbor/tutor -- my method of coping with this added dynamic to parenting a girl was to research child gender + sexual development, discuss with therapists who help child victims of sexual abuse, etc. Leila's Daddy is also an OBGYN so she knows the proper names for all body parts thanks to his educational posters (used to explain the basics to non-native refugees & teen patients) & the "G" version of what each body part is for (she knows Daddies have sperm that are like seeds which implant Mommies' eggs & babies grow in wombs, but she hasn't asked how the sperm get into Mommies so I haven't offered the information either).... Our basic rules are:

her entire body is only hers & our job as her parents is to make sure NO one touches her body unless she wants them to
that she can always trust her feelings & tell us if a touch feels funny or painful or scary or confusing
everyone in the family is granted privacy in the bathroom except Mommy is the parent who will help her if she asks for me
we wear at least as much as we would at the beach around the rest of the house
Seeing adults' genitalia can & does produce confusion + arousal in most children: this can be considered sexual abuse even when there is no other sexual activity -- because it disrupts the child's natural discovery of the human body & triggers anxiety over what their own body will become.... Some basic guidelines are:

parent of the opposite sex should stop being in the nude when the child is about 1 year of age
child should not see the same sex parent in the nude after about 4 years of age
child should ALWAYS innitiate conversation about their maturing body unless the topic has not been raised during the Middle School years, in which case the parents MUST innitiate the conversation before the child is immersed in High School
None of this means the child will be scared of nudity -- it's more likely that a child will be intimidated by nudity when exposed to adult nudity more often & it is also more likely that a child will be intimidated by nudity when the parent uses other overt or even covert methods to associate sex with shame: such as, saying "ew" at media images of scantily clad women, covering a child's eyes during sex scenes instead of simply choosing more appropriate programming, etc. Two recommended readings:

Protect Your Child From Sexual Abuse: A Parent's Guide (Janie Hart-Rossi) / Accompanies: "It's MY Body"
Safe Child Book: A Commonsense Approach to protecting children and teaching children to protect themselves, for children from 3 to 16 (by SHerryll Kraizer, PhD)


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

I couldn't answer the poll, as my daughter's father doesn't live with us.

But if he did, I'd say, well, don't go out of the way to run around naked, but if it happens, it happens. I grew up finally having to tell my dad to put clothes & it wasn't traumatic or anything. I just figured it's ugly, who needs to see that?!

As for the thread title, well no, my daughter won't ever see my my dad naked unless she walk in him changing or smoehting by accident. I don't get the title about grandfathers when the thread is about fathers?


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## Nikki Christina (Mar 27, 2003)

my oldest dd will be 6 in april..
dh does not walk around naked..but if she walks in while he's changing or bathing it is not a big deal


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

It has been talked about here many times about how other countries it isnt uncommon for members of the same family including grandparents to bath/see each other naked and it dosnt affect them negitivly. I have to wonder if it is more a cultural thing. I just dont see how a child seeing a parent naked can cause them damage as long as it isnt a "in your face" kind of nakedness.


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## beansricerevolt (Jun 29, 2005)

I have no problem with dd (8 yrs.) seeing me naked and sometimes she doesn't either. I don't really walk around naked that often. Just today tho I was nursing ds and he had my other boob exposed and was playing with it and dd said "mom, put that boob away. i don't wanna see it."
Dh, on the other hand is very uncomfortable about letting dd see him naked. It probably started around the age of 3. He then stopped getting dressed in front of her. She would be horrified if she saw dh naked.


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

I'd consider comparing those countries' social dynamics related to Childhood Sexual Abuse & how women/girls are treated in general -- when *everyone* in the US is in some way associated (through family relation, friend, work, school, etc.) with _at least_ 1 woman who suffered CSA by the age of 12 & this is based on a low estimate ... I can see how culture has something to do with it (there being an association with spanking & sexual abuse), but if those countries where nudity is more common & the people claim there's no relationship between psychosexual development with this, then I'd like to know what the likelihood of their own cultural negativites has on their thinking: is sexual abuse seen for what it is? Is sexual abuse publically spoken against? Is there adequate support for victims/survivors? When sexual abuse is seen as the norm, then it's effects are not recognized or even discussed. If the society is such that the sexual abuse rate actually is low & studies still show a lack of impact on psychosexual development, then I would so love to know how else their culture differs & push our representatives to do what it takes to help bring about such a change here!


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papooses* 
Seeing adults' genitalia can & does produce confusion + arousal in most children: this can be considered sexual abuse even when there is no other sexual activity -- because it disrupts the child's natural discovery of the human body & triggers anxiety over what their own body will become.... Some basic guidelines are:
parent of the opposite sex should stop being in the nude when the child is about 1 year of age
child should not see the same sex parent in the nude after about 4 years of age
child should ALWAYS innitiate conversation about their maturing body unless the topic has not been raised during the Middle School years, in which case the parents MUST innitiate the conversation before the child is immersed in High School






I don't buy this, at all. Sorry, but I don't think it's natural AT ALL in any human culture for children to be shielded from naked bodies. My 4 yr. old opposite sex child still nurses, bathes and showers with me, cosleeps, and sees me naked many times a day. I assure you that this does not cause him any discomfort. It is natural and normal.

Seeing your parents naked is NOT sexual abuse. It's not even confusing or the cause of *any* anxiety, IMO and experience as a child and a parent.


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

You don't have to believe it, but science says otherwise....

Calmly asking for privacy when a child does see a parent in the nude teaches the child that they have the right to request privacy themselves -- this is different than freaking out if the child happens to walk in on a parent changing.

Genitalia are not breasts.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papooses* 
Some basic guidelines are:

parent of the opposite sex should stop being in the nude when the child is about 1 year of age
child should not see the same sex parent in the nude after about 4 years of age
child should ALWAYS innitiate conversation about their maturing body unless the topic has not been raised during the Middle School years, in which case the parents MUST innitiate the conversation before the child is immersed in High School

I think this is totally and completely absurd.

Are all Europeans abusing their children? Most cultures do not make the huge deal out of the human body that American culture does.

I feel sorry for anyone who lives with such a paranoid state of mind.

As I said, nudity was relaxed and comfortable in our household growing up. No one in our immediate family was sexually abused.

Frankly I am quite offended for you to suggest that my 2.5yr old seeing daddy naked is damaging her.

-Angela


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## guest9921 (Nov 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hottmama* 
I don't buy this, at all. Sorry, but I don't think it's natural AT ALL in any human culture for children to be shielded from naked bodies. My 4 yr. old opposite sex child still nurses, bathes and showers with me, cosleeps, and sees me naked many times a day. I assure you that this does not cause him any discomfort. It is natural and normal.

Seeing your parents naked is NOT sexual abuse. It's not even confusing or the cause of *any* anxiety, IMO and experience as a child and a parent.









:

I agree, entirely.
In fact, I bathe with my 18m old every, single, day - and he never once has looked at my yoni as anything but a foot or a forehead. He doesnt care, one day he'll understand the functions more, but he needs to be aware of his body and mine. There is No Shame in our house.

He doesn't really look twice at Papa either.
We'll continue to be naked around him as long as we feel comfortable.


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## brewgirl (Sep 22, 2004)

Funny story on this...

Last week my 3.5 yo walked in on dh peeing. Her eventual question: "Daddy, what are those buttbangers behind your penis?" Needless to say, he was totally taken off guard and by the time he recovered she had skipped away singing a song about buttbangers.

Kids! Where do they come up with this stuff?


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

We're private with nudity here. I think it's an important part of teaching them about appropriate boundaries. I don't think having a family that's more nudity-open is harmful, though.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katherinezuels* 
In fact, I bathe with my 18m old every, single, day - and he never once has looked at my yoni as anything but a foot or a forehead..

This is how my 3 yo is as well. I think it's kind of interesting. Early on she would rarely glance at my genitals, and once asked 'what's that?' I answered 'my vagina'. She kind of looked down at her own and then went back to playing. Now it's like she purposefully avoids looking or paying any attention. I think she's just being respectful of privacy, to be honest.

I imagine she'd be equally nonchalant about papa's gear if she'd been around it all her life. We just didn't do it that way though.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brewgirl* 
Funny story on this...

Last week my 3.5 yo walked in on dh peeing. Her eventual question: "Daddy, what are those buttbangers behind your penis?" Needless to say, he was totally taken off guard and by the time he recovered she had skipped away singing a song about buttbangers.

Kids! Where do they come up with this stuff?

















: I am so glad I was done drinking before I read that.







: buttbangers


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## aisraeltax (Jul 2, 2005)

i think it affects ppl negatively when nudity is such a taboo issue in their own home.

NIP is a problem in our society for a reason. I think our hangups about nudity is one of those reasons.

i only have boys. so if the opposite sex in my home couldnt see each other naked, we would have our clothes on 24/7...that just does not seem right to me.


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## MamaRabbit (May 26, 2005)

DD is 3.5. DH will cover up around her. But occasionally, he forgets or whatever. It's no big deal.


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## clavicula (Apr 10, 2005)

it is no big deal. being naked at home is not an issue here.


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

I voted the last option.

My sons see me naked still at 13 and 10 they also see dh and its no big deal (he is not their bio-dad) My dd sees her dad naked and she's 4. The baby sees all but ds1 naked and that's only because he's decided not to be seen without shorts on.

Last summer ds1 asked my dh to look at what he thought was a cancerous lump on his testicle and had got all freaked out about. Dh took a look and pronounced it an ingrowing pubic hair and all was well.









How difficult would this have been if we were a 'private' family?

I don't want to hide my body from my children but I don't put it in their faces either. If I'm dressing and they want to talk to me I talk to them while I dress. They have seen me ordinary, pregnant, post-partum and breastfeeding. They see how my body can and does change. I do't want my sons getting all their perceptions of women's bodies from advertising.

Dd was keen to point out daddy's 'willy' for a while and talked a lot about how she didn't have one but the boys did.

We are European but also British so not as extravagant in many ways as most of our continental compatriots but we aren't as prudish here as people think.

Nakedness is not perversion. What we can do with our naked bodies that we cannot do with our clothes on? Seeking to hide our skin and therefore protect our children from harm is barking up the wrong tree.


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## KaraBoo (Nov 22, 2001)

I don't really care what others do in their homes but here, naked bodies are no big deal. My husband sleeps naked and my 8yr old has seen him naked countless times. She even showered with him the other day. She doesn't even mention his penis anymore cuz it isn't a big deal to her. When she was smaller, she liked to point and laugh. (LOL Not good to do that to a man!) She declared around age three, with a big sigh, "I'm glad I have a vulva and a vagina! I don't want no penis!") She's, of course, seen me naked as well and we often bathe together. She sees me changing and likes to chat with me while I get dressed. We don't close doors here at all unless we have guests. Shrug. This is just the way we are.


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papooses* 
You don't have to believe it, but science says otherwise....

I don't think that Lord Science proclaimed that 1 yr. old boys shouldn't see their naked mamas. Or 4 yr. olds, for that matter! Thankfully, common sense and sound research says otherwise.


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## Lovenest (Apr 12, 2006)

I would not mind until the child seemed to care.
Most children will hit an age and they will want privacy etc for bathroom and shower. And at that point I would respect my child.
My son is 4.5 and still bathes with daddy or myself sometimes.
He does not care, he has seen it all before. he just sees it as bath or play time with us!

I had to add this after seeing replies.
My son is very modest and knows that his private areas are not for others to see. He even asks for privacy around grandparents to go potty.
He is not around us though.

I thought this had some great info regarding nudity with children:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudity_and_children

I liked this quote:

"In fact, research suggests that children who have seen their parents nude do not grow up to be emotionally scarred, but instead are more likely to be accepting of their own bodies and comfortable with their own sexuality." Holly Robinson, HealthyKids.com


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Many familes sauna here together daily as their "bath". We do not have a suana now but did at our last house and it is completely normal for the whole family to be sitting around naked together. In fact, we go to friend's house to sauna now. Dd does not sauna there as it is too hot and I do not want her viewing random naked people but dh and I do and it is not a big deal. When she gets old enough I will let her go into the girl's sauna if she wishes. My dorm hall even had a sauna that had coed hours







We also go hiking or driving and decide to swim. We live on a huge open and unpopulated beach to the largest fresh water lake in the country. If we want to swim and there are no suits, we do. And have done so with other random strangers. Not up close and personal but within viewing distance. I see no problem.


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## luvmyfullhouse (Jan 16, 2007)

I checked that it isn't a big deal if it happens, but until recently I would have checked the last one. DH is very comfortable naked and would often lay on the couch with a blanket on that way, a couple weeks ago our 3yo pulled the blanket up, stared at him and then proceeded to "honk" him







. From that point on DH has worn boxers until the kids are in bed. We did address Emily and explain that we don't touch like that, that Daddy's penis is his, etc. It actually opened up into a nice discussion with her about people touching eachother and what is acceptable and what isn't.


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## luvmyfullhouse (Jan 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papooses* 
I'm all for helping Leila feel confident with her self, her body & people in general.... However, I was also sexually abused as a preschooler by my neighbor/tutor -- my method of coping with this added dynamic to parenting a girl was to research child gender + sexual development, discuss with therapists who help child victims of sexual abuse, etc. Leila's Daddy is also an OBGYN so she knows the proper names for all body parts thanks to his educational posters (used to explain the basics to non-native refugees & teen patients) & the "G" version of what each body part is for (she knows Daddies have sperm that are like seeds which implant Mommies' eggs & babies grow in wombs, but she hasn't asked how the sperm get into Mommies so I haven't offered the information either).... Our basic rules are:

her entire body is only hers & our job as her parents is to make sure NO one touches her body unless she wants them to
that she can always trust her feelings & tell us if a touch feels funny or painful or scary or confusing
everyone in the family is granted privacy in the bathroom except Mommy is the parent who will help her if she asks for me
we wear at least as much as we would at the beach around the rest of the house
Seeing adults' genitalia can & does produce confusion + arousal in most children: this can be considered sexual abuse even when there is no other sexual activity -- because it disrupts the child's natural discovery of the human body & triggers anxiety over what their own body will become.... Some basic guidelines are:

parent of the opposite sex should stop being in the nude when the child is about 1 year of age
child should not see the same sex parent in the nude after about 4 years of age
child should ALWAYS innitiate conversation about their maturing body unless the topic has not been raised during the Middle School years, in which case the parents MUST innitiate the conversation before the child is immersed in High School
None of this means the child will be scared of nudity -- it's more likely that a child will be intimidated by nudity when exposed to adult nudity more often & it is also more likely that a child will be intimidated by nudity when the parent uses other overt or even covert methods to associate sex with shame: such as, saying "ew" at media images of scantily clad women, covering a child's eyes during sex scenes instead of simply choosing more appropriate programming, etc.

I too, was abused as a child, and also discussed how to address body issues and sexuality with the many therapists, counselors, psyciatrists, etc that I have seen over the years so that my children would be better prepared. None of them claimed what you have about seeing images of naked people or their parents. If anything, I was told that the more children know about their bodies, the more apt to protect it they are. If they are told to hide it, it creates a stigma. IMO, children have to learn so many rules, expectations, etc as they grow that clothing in the home(when there isn't company) isn't a battle thats top on the list.


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## Annikate (Aug 2, 2005)

No big deal in our house. We'll take the lead from dds on this one. If they become uncomfortable, then we'll honor that. I don't really see why they would though since it's just not an issue here.


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## oldcrunchymom (Jun 26, 2002)

My kids are 11 and almost 9 and have no issues with being nude in front of family or seeing family nude. My oldest does close the door when he goes to the bathroom, though.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

It is no big deal here. I can't believe the issues some people have and are trying to place on "science."


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## damselfly41 (Sep 21, 2006)

I voted the "what's the hang up", but that is for me. My parents were very, very modest and would never be even remotely undressed around me and my sister. I have a 4 1/2 yo dd and a 2 1/2 yo ds. I, personally, don't care if they see me naked. I act as if it's completely normal. My reasoning is this: I have major body image issues. These are all in my head, and in reality, I shouldn't give a crap, but I do. I have always felt that my parents subconciously (sp?) gave us the message that nudity is not okay because our bodies may not be perfect. (This may not be how my parents felt at all, I'm just saying...) I don't want my kids to think everyone has to hide their imperfections. So, I don't like my tummy. So what? It has grown and nurtured and is beautiful in its own right. My dh, however, now that dd is getting older, is uncomfortable with her seeing him in the buff. And that's okay, too. As long as dh and I model that every body is different and beautiful and worthy, I'm okay.


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## caedmyn (Jan 13, 2006)

I think to some degree it depends on whether modesty is an important concept to you/your family. It is to me, so we will act accordingly. I don't have a problem with DD seeing me or her father naked until 2 or so. After that I don't want her to see Daddy naked. I'm not sure yet at what age I will not want her seeing me naked. That being said, if she does happen to see either of us naked past the "cut-off" age, so to speak, I won't make a big deal of it but treat it as something natural.

My parents did allow me to see them naked for quite a while...probably up to about age 8 for my dad and longer for my mom. They didn't make a big deal of it, but quite frankly it made me uncomfortable after a while and I think it affected me psychologically, especially seeing my dad naked. That's something I don't want to repeat with my children.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I think if anyone is uncomfortable with it, that should be respected.

I have a friend who had to see her Dad naked regularly and she resents it to this day. (he was a free spirit)

She said it was gross to see your parents naked, and they should have been more respectful of what the kids wanted.

It's one thing if you walk in on THEM when they are naked, but if they are prancing through the house in their alltogethers, that is not O.K. (according to Dawn) She claims they couldn't even watch Happy Days in peace without Dad strutting through the house with all his saggyness. ROTFLMAO.


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## ferretfan (Nov 13, 2005)

it's not an issue in our house.

16 month old dd alternates bathing with myself or her daddy at night. while sitting on my lap in the bath she has tried once to touch my pubic area. i said " dont touch that's mummy's" she hasnt given it a second glance. her daddy reports that she's never even looked at his pubic area (there are rubber ducks and other toys that are far more interesting







)

i think because we've never attempted to cover up or draw attention to nudity, she also view genitals as she would arms, legs or ears. it was interesting the first time she noticed a new anatomical part, but then it became nothing more than another anatomical part.

we'll continue this way until someone becomes uncomfortable with it


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## ~Nikki~ (Aug 4, 2004)

My own father was MAJORLY uncomfortable about this. I can only remember a single instance of walking in on him while he was going to the washroom. I was probably 3, and for months I would run around telling people that I had seen daddy's "tail." He was mortified. And I have never seen him naked since then.

In my house, I voted for "not a big deal." If DH is drying off after a shower, and my daughter barges into the washroom, it's not the end of the world. He decided that he didn't want her in the bath or shower with him somewhere between 18-24 months. He was afraid that she would get curious and try to grab him.







I still get dressed in front of my 18 month old son in the morning, but I no longer have baths with him. Mainly because he tries to nurse, and well, it's kind of annoying to have to breastfeed while bathing. 

So in our house, I guess the rule is that if you accidentally catch a peek, it's not a huge deal. But we don't prance around naked. We keep the house cool, so it wouldn't be very comfortable.


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## eviesingleton (Jan 18, 2007)

ew. naked people. gross.

sorry.

Although I'm pretty modest myself, I really don't have a problem with kids seeing their parents nakers.

I think the rigid guidelines supported by "science" are ludicrous.

If "science" cannot tell the difference between a child seeings his or her parent in an open, healthy environment and sexual molestation, then we're in a lot of trouble. Next they'll be telling us that babies are supposed to come out horizontally....


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

My DS is 4 and still sees me naked. I have no issues with it at all. It's not like I lounge around all day without clothes on, but I do sleep topless and don't try to hide myself when I get out of bed, or get out of the shower.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

No big deal in our house.

And, I just have to tell my story. Dd is 2 1/2. Daddy was in the shower recently, and dd was in the bathroom, chatting with him. He got out of the shower and she said "I'm a kitty!" He looked at her and said "Oh, do you have a tail?"

She looked at him, and said "No, but you do."


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## amyjeans (Jul 27, 2004)

Our girls have seen us naked, getting dressed, etc. we try not to make it seem like a bad thing. I have explained to our oldest (4) that being naked is a good thing for bathtime and changing, but its best to do it at home and not in dance class. :LOL


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## chiro_kristin (Dec 31, 2004)

Nudity was never a big deal in my house, although none of us ran around naked. However, I do have a burning mental picture of my father's penis from one time we were in the shower. From the viewpoint of the picture in my head, I was just about "that" high. I wish I didn't have that memory.









Ds is 17 months, and the only thing that bothers me about him seeing me naked in the bathroom is when I'm not paying attention and he comes up and pulls my pubic hair. OW! Other than that, I think we'll just play it by ear.


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## LeftField (Aug 2, 2002)

Well, I don't have daughters. But I have sons and they see me naked all the time, when I'm getting in or out of the shower, getting dressed, using the toilet, whatever. The oldest is 5. They are completely oblivious so it's a non-issue. The other day, my 3 year old came in the room when I was about to step in the shower. And a 3 year old is right below waist-height on an adult. He looked at me and said, "Hey, Mama, what's that brown thing??" (hair). I turned around and hopped into the shower quickly at that point.









But anyway, we don't care. If they start feeling embarrassed, I'll give warnings that I'm upstairs getting dressed or something. No biggie.


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## LeftField (Aug 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I think this is totally and completely absurd.

Are all Europeans abusing their children? Most cultures do not make the huge deal out of the human body that American culture does.

I feel sorry for anyone who lives with such a paranoid state of mind.

As I said, nudity was relaxed and comfortable in our household growing up. No one in our immediate family was sexually abused.

Frankly I am quite offended for you to suggest that my 2.5yr old seeing daddy naked is damaging her.

-Angela

Yes! And honestly a 1 year old is a baby, pure and simple. I would argue that a 2 year old is a baby. I have a very bright 3 year old and he is still very much like a baby in so many ways. I would imagine that some degree of nudity is/was pretty much the norm in most cultures in most time periods. I think a little historical perspective is needed here, outside of 20th-21st century Western. Actually, even that is too broad, because lots of Western cultures do include some degree of familial nudity. I know someone from Norway and they all go to sauna together: elderly relatives to pubescent children on down...all buck naked in the sauna together. It has a very long-standing cultural basis. I find the original argument (that Alegna is responding to) to be highly ethnocentric.


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## KnitLady (Jul 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *doriansmummy* 
I thought this had some great info regarding nudity with children:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudity_and_children

I liked this quote:

"In fact, research suggests that children who have seen their parents nude do not grow up to be emotionally scarred, but instead are more likely to be accepting of their own bodies and comfortable with their own sexuality." Holly Robinson, HealthyKids.com









This is the case in my experience! My dad stopped being naked around me when I was 3 or 4 so I don't remember that much, however my mom was naked around me a lot. It was never a big deal. In fact I used to look at her and think to myself that that was what I was going to look like. She was my mom and I thought her plump curves were beautiful. I played with Barbies constantly as a child, but never had hang-ups about my body. I really think seeing my mom naked a lot gave me realistic expectations.

I think it's important to recognize that nudity is not sexual. It becomes sexual only in context.


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## MamaFern (Dec 13, 2003)

i think its totally okay..
i remember bathing with my dad and seeing him naked and it never bothered me.. there was no shame involved.. nothing negative.. it was just a body.

my best friends dad also walked around naked when i was a kid..from grade one until a was a teenager.. it was totally normal in their house to be naked and i was like one of the family..to this day we are good friends, her father and i i mean..

my partner likes to be naked or scantily dressed around the house..at night we both sleep naked most of the time.. the kids bathe with their dad and i.. and its never come up as an issue at all.. our girl is only 14 months though..but i cant see it becoming an issue either. i think that he will decide when its not okay for him to be naked around her if ever. we feel that being naked is just a normal part of life.. im not that comfy all the ime because im kinda flabby from babyying..but thats my own issue







.. my 4 year old son is a nudist..

i can see that someone with a history of sexual abuse would have a really hard time with this issue..and i also think that it is very imposrtant to make sure that our girls are not being abused by men in their lives. its so fucked up i cant even begin..


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## MamaFern (Dec 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KnitLady* 

I think it's important to recognize that nudity is not sexual. It becomes sexual only in context.

totally!


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## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

Well, I don't have a dd, but I have boys who see me naked all the time. I mean, hell, my 3 yo is still nursing. Yes, we're starting to talk more about privacy... I've started to tell him it's not polite to stare at a particular spot while I'm wiping after going potty for instance...









If I have a dd some day, I won't care if she sees her dad naked. It's just a nude body.


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## PiePie (Oct 2, 2006)

I think we'll draw a bright line somewhere in the 2 range, depending on the child's expressed desire for privacy of the child's own (often a sign that the child is ready for potty learning).


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## Reikagoth (Oct 31, 2006)

The way I see it is like this:

Mommy has mommy parts, and they're different from my DS's... but that's ok. He's learning little differences between males and females...

Daddy has daddy parts, and they're the same as Ds's... and that's ok, too... because DS is learning all about being a boy.









Mommy parts, Daddy parts... they're all human parts in the end.


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## roxyrox (Sep 11, 2006)

We are always naked in our house







Some people's opinions on this thread seem a bit absurb to me. There is nothing wrong with children seeing people naked, it is completley natrual. I think you should be careful not to protect your own issues onto your child. Honestly, a one year old not being allowed to see the opposite sex parent naked? How to give a child issues.......


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## hammas (Oct 19, 2006)

We live in a country where it is common to sauna with the whole family until the kids start to feel uncomfortable. (In some families that never happens.) I stopped going to the sauna with my dad when I was 9. I still saw my dad naked until I moved out but did not want him to see me. My own dd is just 8 months old so she will be bathing with her naked dad for quite a while.

In swimming halls the general guideline is that school-aged kids go to the dressing room of their own gender. That is because their opposite-sex class mates might be in the same dressing room. So kids under seven years of age are always allowed to dress with their opposite-sex parent or other company.

We are naked at the house even outside the sauna. It just isn't an issue here when there are only family mambers present. I don't see a connection between nudity and child abuse.


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## Laggie (Nov 2, 2005)

We all see each other naked, but it's not usually at home - it's usually at the beach! The most popular beach around here, for our friends and for us, is the clothing optional beach.

If she starts saying she doesn't want to go there when she gets older, then we won't take her anymore... but she would be missing out on playing at the beach with her friends, so I don't think that will happen. DD usually chooses to wear a bathing suit, but not always.

Around the house, DH isn't usually naked in front of DD, not on purpose anyway. DD hasn't really developed much modesty yet - she's fine with either one of us seeing her in the shower.


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## janellesmommy (Jun 6, 2004)

Dd is 3 1/2 and doesn't seem to even notice when DH is naked. So it's definately not a problem yet. We'll just wait until it seems like it's an issue, then DH will have to start covering up.


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## littlemizflava (Oct 8, 2006)

nope no big deal i remember rushing anyone who bathed in my house when i was little mom dad and 4 boys and 4 girls including me so i seen all have pics too i feel it dont matter as long as it is not in a sexual manor caught is one thing but there is nothing wrong with seeing another naked no matter the sex


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## mclisa (Jul 26, 2004)

DH doesn't let the girls see him anymore.


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KnitLady*
I think it's important to recognize that nudity is not sexual. It becomes sexual only in context.

Yes, exactly -- but when nudity is so commonly portrayed as sexualized & kids see this in brief images everywhere by the time they begin really thinking about their bodies, seeing the parents naked is associated with sexualized images & the stress is shown by increased heart rate, etc.... If it's a homeschooling family without TV, this probably isn't an issue whatsoever, but in most of America & other such nations, it is very real (as is the stigma & continued relative silence).


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Papooses, I am sorry, but that is nonsense. A one year old baby can't see a nude opposite-sex parent?

I'd like to see some (REAL, UNBIASED) research supporting that. Because it has me


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Papooses, I am sorry, but that is nonsense. A one year old baby can't see a nude opposite-sex parent?

I'd like to see some (REAL, UNBIASED) research supporting that. Because it has me

















:

Sorry, but you're just plain wrong.

-Angela


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

I think we need to be a little kinder here, Tiffany did preface what she said w/ she had experienced sexual abuse as a child. If you haven't been there, you have no idea what you would/wouldn't do IMO. I know Tiffany and maybe that's why I didn't read into it as deep as some others. I didn't read it as she was saying those who get naked in front of thier kids are wrong, she just offered up her thoughts and some ideas that she uses. I'm still naked in front of AJ and we're both fine w/ that right now. I totally see her point. I know AJ is only 3, but I have not instilled in him like I should that no one else should see him naked. I think that's where being comfortable w/ everyone being naked at home could confuse children in that it's NOT o.k. to be naked in front of others, strangers, etc. A good friend of mine's ds (same age as Evan) will not let anyone change his diaper but her and her DH for the most part b/c she has taught him that no one is to see his penis or touch him. That's great and I love that. My kids are 'free' children and love to be naked in front of everyone b/c it is normal at home. IMO, that's what Tiffany is talking about. I sexually assaulted as a teen by a boyfriend so my thoughts on these things don't fall into play till later in a child's life b/c that is the age that impacted me. I plan on doing things differently w/ my kids than my parents did in hopes of 1) it not happening to my children (especially dd since she is more at risk) and 2) if it does happen, they can tell me ASAP and not be scared of what will happen.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I don't have a problem with people having standards for their families. The "this is what *we* do" posts are fine.

This is what I had a problem with:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papooses* 
Seeing adults' genitalia can & does produce confusion + arousal in most children: this can be considered sexual abuse even when there is no other sexual activity -- because it disrupts the child's natural discovery of the human body & triggers anxiety over what their own body will become.... Some basic guidelines are:

parent of the opposite sex should stop being in the nude when the child is about 1 year of age
child should not see the same sex parent in the nude after about 4 years of age
child should ALWAYS innitiate conversation about their maturing body unless the topic has not been raised during the Middle School years, in which case the parents MUST innitiate the conversation before the child is immersed in High School

She says that "Seeing adults' genitalia can & does produce confusion + arousal in *most* children"

Then she goes on to set random rules about what others "should" do. (notice the repeated used of the word SHOULD)

THAT is where I have a problem. If that is how she wants to do things in *her* family, that is fine, but to suggest that others are sexually abusing their children because they *don't* have a problem with nudity is insulting at best.

-Angela


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
It is no big deal here. I can't believe the issues some people have and are trying to place on "science."

No kidding.

Both my partner and I are naked around our kids quite often. That's lead to some good conversations about our bodies, but I think it's absolutely ridiculous -- and entirely offensive -- to suggest that our children will be harmed by our lack of modesty.


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## aisraeltax (Jul 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papooses* 
[/list]Seeing adults' genitalia can & does produce confusion + arousal in most children: this can be considered sexual abuse even when there is no other sexual activity -- because it disrupts the child's natural discovery of the human body & triggers anxiety over what their own body will become.... Some basic guidelines are:

parent of the opposite sex should stop being in the nude when the child is about 1 year of age
child should not see the same sex parent in the nude after about 4 years of age
child should ALWAYS innitiate conversation about their maturing body unless the topic has not been raised during the Middle School years, in which case the parents MUST innitiate the conversation before the child is immersed in High School

this is a recipe for disaster in a loving, caring home IMHO.

how on earth can a 1 yo be thought to be sexually aroused? or a 4 yo, simply by seeing his mom or her dad nude?

again, THIS is one of the fundamental problems w/ our society and why we as women have such a hard time NIP.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Saying a toddler will become aroused by a nude parent has SERIOUS implications, in that the speaker clearly does not understand the sexual process of self-discovery and understanding in a child.

To Tiffany, I am truly sorry you experience sexual abuse as a child. I have been there and if you want to PM me, please do. But I am deeply concerned about the perspective it has given you, which is extremely unhealthy and warped, and has placed sexual overtones on something quite innocent. This is not healthy....for you or your children!


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## mightymoo (Dec 6, 2003)

I was kinda split between then. We are private about nudity, especially my husband, he does not like DD seeing him naked. i'm sure he won't be as concerned about DS, so its a bit of a girls see girls / boys see boys thing, but then again, its not a big deal if it does happen, we just try not to let it.


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thepeach80* 
I think we need to be a little kinder here, Tiffany did preface what she said w/ she had experienced sexual abuse as a child. If you haven't been there, you have no idea what you would/wouldn't do IMO. I know Tiffany and maybe that's why I didn't read into it as deep as some others. I didn't read it as she was saying those who get naked in front of thier kids are wrong, she just offered up her thoughts and some ideas that she uses. I'm still naked in front of AJ and we're both fine w/ that right now. I totally see her point. I know AJ is only 3, but I have not instilled in him like I should that no one else should see him naked. I think that's where being comfortable w/ everyone being naked at home could confuse children in that it's NOT o.k. to be naked in front of others, strangers, etc. A good friend of mine's ds (same age as Evan) will not let anyone change his diaper but her and her DH for the most part b/c she has taught him that no one is to see his penis or touch him. That's great and I love that. My kids are 'free' children and love to be naked in front of everyone b/c it is normal at home. IMO, that's what Tiffany is talking about. I sexually assaulted as a teen by a boyfriend so my thoughts on these things don't fall into play till later in a child's life b/c that is the age that impacted me. I plan on doing things differently w/ my kids than my parents did in hopes of 1) it not happening to my children (especially dd since she is more at risk) and 2) if it does happen, they can tell me ASAP and not be scared of what will happen.

You honestly think a baby (still in diapers!!!) should feel uncomfortable having another caregiver change their diaper?!
Or a 3 yr. old shouldn't be naked in front of people?!

I changed my son from clothes-->trunks-->clothes outside by the pool all the time last summer, at 3.5. Until recently (3? 3.5?) he spent every second at home naked, including when guests were over. He'll happily play naked with his friends, now (which happened fairly recently when they decided to jump in a little garden pond at a friend's potluck). I feel proud that he is so comfortable with his body and not modest or self-conscious.
I don't think raising confident children who are comfortable with nudity leads to sexual abuse. My child is not AT ALL ashamed of his body and would not hesitate to tell me if anyone did anything to him (trust me, the kid was born a tattletale).


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hammas* 
We live in a country where it is common to sauna with the whole family until the kids start to feel uncomfortable. (In some families that never happens.) I stopped going to the sauna with my dad when I was 9. I still saw my dad naked until I moved out but did not want him to see me. My own dd is just 8 months old so she will be bathing with her naked dad for quite a while.

In swimming halls the general guideline is that school-aged kids go to the dressing room of their own gender. That is because their opposite-sex class mates might be in the same dressing room. So kids under seven years of age are always allowed to dress with their opposite-sex parent or other company.

We are naked at the house even outside the sauna. It just isn't an issue here when there are only family mambers present. I don't see a connection between nudity and child abuse.

I live in the U.S. but in a tiny area in which it is very common to sauna. I was SHOCKED the first time I stayed at a boyfriend's camp for a weekend only to discover that I would be invited to hang out NAKED with his family in the sauna







Luckily, I got over it. It was great and I was hooked. I have asked my friends that grew up here when they outgrew naked coed family saunas. Most said the same as you, around 8-10 years, but some were comfortable with it until adulthood and still sauna with their families. I do not think any of them are scarred for life.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

It's a complex issue, and I don't begrudge anyone trying to look at the dynamics of their own family and their own backgrounds in deciding what works within their home. There is no 'right' way to think here.

We're not just dealing from the perspective (or potential perspective) of the child here. Both parents - their backgrounds and perspectives - play into this equation. So, while I don't doubt that a child will be nonchalant about nudity if raised with it (the same way my dd is with my nudity), I have to factor in how I feel about things and how dh feels about things.

For me, my dad's modesty allowed me to feel safe in my relationship with him. It felt purely father/daughter, without even a suggestion or overtone of impropriety. Like others, I had friends whose dad's would expose their genitals without much thought. Sometimes it seemed innocent but - quite frankly - often it seemed creepy and exhibitionist. None of my friends liked that aspect of their father's behavior. They all wished that he would not do that, as they felt it injected an uncomfortable feeling into their relationship with their dad.

I didn't want that for dd. I wanted her daddy to be purely her daddy. I wanted her to feel safe and secure, and not to have to talk to her friends as a teen about what a 'creep' her dad could sometimes be, kwim? So when I saw dh casually walking across the room naked after a shower, I asked him to please put a towel on when dd was in the room. And after I explained how I felt, he was happy to oblige.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
We're not just dealing from the perspective (or potential perspective) of the child here. Both parents - their backgrounds and perspectives - play into this equation. So, while I don't doubt that a child will be nonchalant about nudity if raised with it (the same way my dd is with my nudity), I have to factor in how I feel about things and how dh feels about things.

For me, my dad's modesty allowed me to feel safe in my relationship with him. It felt purely father/daughter, without even a suggestion or overtone of impropriety.

This is a good point.

For me, my dad's openness allowed me to feel safe in my relationship with him. It felt open like there weren't areas we couldn't talk about with eachother, without any suggestion of taboo topics.

-Angela


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## KaraBoo (Nov 22, 2001)

Sexual abuse was a big issue in my family. Just to give you an idea, one of my brothers abused one of my sisters for years. The men were predatory and the women, well...I don't really want to get into all of it. I just wanted to give you an idea of where I'm coming from.

And I think the biggest way to help break that cycle and to heal is having a healthy outlook on sex and bodies. I don't want my daughter to fear seeing a penis or a vagina or breasts.


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## ewe+lamb (Jul 20, 2004)

My parents were always and still are very open about their bodies and we are about ours but then our children are only 4.5 and 18 months things may change in time to come.


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## ani'smama (Nov 12, 2004)

I voted "no big deal if it happens". Dh doesn't walk around the house naked, and he takes his boxers in the bathroom with him when he goes to shower. DD's are pretty good about knocking before going in the bathroom, so I don't know that it ever has happened.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hottmama* 
You honestly think a baby (still in diapers!!!) should feel uncomfortable having another caregiver change their diaper?!
Or a 3 yr. old shouldn't be naked in front of people?!

I changed my son from clothes-->trunks-->clothes outside by the pool all the time last summer, at 3.5. Until recently (3? 3.5?) he spent every second at home naked, including when guests were over. He'll happily play naked with his friends, now (which happened fairly recently when they decided to jump in a little garden pond at a friend's potluck). I feel proud that he is so comfortable with his body and not modest or self-conscious.
I don't think raising confident children who are comfortable with nudity leads to sexual abuse. My child is not AT ALL ashamed of his body and would not hesitate to tell me if anyone did anything to him (trust me, the kid was born a tattletale).

Yes, that works for them. If some stranger walked up to my kids and asked to 'change' their diapers, they wouldn't think twice. Abuse happens in all forms, even w/in many families. Now I don't have this problem b/c I am w/ my children all the time, I change diapers when needed or DH and sometimes grandma, rarely anyone outside that. Now if her 2yo were in daycare ft and was often changed by others, this might be a problem.

I personally don't see the reasoning in letting a child play naked in front of everyone and their dog. My kids are comfortable w/ their bodies and they're comfortable w/ mine and are naked a lot of the day too. Kids need to wear clothes though when it is appropriate. How do you teach your kids that not everyone needs to see them naked when you let everyone see them naked? My kids are naked when it's appropriate. I don't fear changing their clothes in a locker room for swim lessons or changing their diaper in public, but I do fear them not knowing when it's appropriate for them to be naked and when it's not.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

I have no problems with families setting their own standards about 'comfort levels' for nudity. Some families would prefer to be dressed down to their shoes, others would run around nekkid all day if given the opportunity.

I do have a problem with someone stating that a one year old baby seeing his opposite sex parent nude will cause sexual arrousal. That's a very different (and very disturbing) statement.


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## Mama Poot (Jun 12, 2006)

I voted whats your hangup lol. We only have two boys right now but I mean really, we ARE family and personally I'd be pissed if someone told me to cover up in my own home. DH's dad was open about nudity-he was the oldest of ten kids! Someone's bound to see someone naked in a family that large, and he was only about ten when his mother died, so he dressed, bathed, even braided his sisters' hair because there was no one else that could do it. Nudity is no problem here. I take baths sometimes with our 17mo. He pokes my boobies sometimes







If/when we have a girl I doubt DH is going to go to extreme lengths to cover up.


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thepeach80* 
I personally don't see the reasoning in letting a child play naked in front of everyone and their dog. My kids are comfortable w/ their bodies and they're comfortable w/ mine and are naked a lot of the day too. Kids need to wear clothes though when it is appropriate. How do you teach your kids that not everyone needs to see them naked when you let everyone see them naked? My kids are naked when it's appropriate. I don't fear changing their clothes in a locker room for swim lessons or changing their diaper in public, but I do fear them not knowing when it's appropriate for them to be naked and when it's not.

Kids are great at understanding context, IME. My oldest son will be 4 tomorrow, and while he thinks it's fun to run naked in a friend's house, he wouldn't strip down in the grocery store. And he doesn't let anyone, even me, touch his penis, because it's too sensitive.


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## 4Marmalade (May 4, 2004)

I voted "it's not a big deal". My ds (4) has seen me naked - usually after coming out of the shower. Dd is 20 months and sees dh naked - once again usually after bathing. We still sometimes take family baths. We are not uncomfortable with anything yet.


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## Ms Ladybug (Dec 29, 2004)

Cute story:
DD was taking a shower with my husband and she pointed to his penis asking,"What's that?"
Dh: It's a penis. That's what boys have.
dd: Oh. I can't wait to be a boy, so I can have one of those!








Cracked me up!


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

Dh is actually more modest around the boys than I am. Until recently ds2 had separation anxiety and I could not go to the bathroom with the door closed or leave it closed for a shower, so ds1 saw me a lot. We're working with him on closed bathroom doors=private, even for mommy (he gets that for daddy & grandma, but since he's never had to deal with me wanting privacy before, it's weird for him. Both kids regularly are around when I get changed and ds1 took pictures at ds2's birth. I don't think it's a big deal. I do find it a bit weird that my mother doesn't have a problem changing in front of them, but she's never had a problem changing in front of me either.


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## KnitLady (Jul 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papooses* 
Yes, exactly -- but when nudity is so commonly portrayed as sexualized & kids see this in brief images everywhere by the time they begin really thinking about their bodies, seeing the parents naked is associated with sexualized images & the stress is shown by increased heart rate, etc.... If it's a homeschooling family without TV, this probably isn't an issue whatsoever, but in most of America & other such nations, it is very real (as is the stigma & continued relative silence).


Hmmmm...I see your point, however I don't think that's how it should be (ideally). To me it's similar to nursing in public.







It's just a matter of people getting used to seeing breasts used for nursing. I think we as a society need to grow up and be okay with nudity in situations other than sex.


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## AMagicalWishxoxo (Jan 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papooses* 
I'm all for helping Leila feel confident with her self, her body & people in general.... However, I was also sexually abused as a preschooler by my neighbor/tutor -- my method of coping with this added dynamic to parenting a girl was to research child gender + sexual development, discuss with therapists who help child victims of sexual abuse, etc. Leila's Daddy is also an OBGYN so she knows the proper names for all body parts thanks to his educational posters (used to explain the basics to non-native refugees & teen patients) & the "G" version of what each body part is for (she knows Daddies have sperm that are like seeds which implant Mommies' eggs & babies grow in wombs, but she hasn't asked how the sperm get into Mommies so I haven't offered the information either).... Our basic rules are:

her entire body is only hers & our job as her parents is to make sure NO one touches her body unless she wants them to
that she can always trust her feelings & tell us if a touch feels funny or painful or scary or confusing
everyone in the family is granted privacy in the bathroom except Mommy is the parent who will help her if she asks for me
we wear at least as much as we would at the beach around the rest of the house
Seeing adults' genitalia can & does produce confusion + arousal in most children: this can be considered sexual abuse even when there is no other sexual activity -- because it disrupts the child's natural discovery of the human body & triggers anxiety over what their own body will become.... Some basic guidelines are:

parent of the opposite sex should stop being in the nude when the child is about 1 year of age
child should not see the same sex parent in the nude after about 4 years of age
child should ALWAYS innitiate conversation about their maturing body unless the topic has not been raised during the Middle School years, in which case the parents MUST innitiate the conversation before the child is immersed in High School
None of this means the child will be scared of nudity -- it's more likely that a child will be intimidated by nudity when exposed to adult nudity more often & it is also more likely that a child will be intimidated by nudity when the parent uses other overt or even covert methods to associate sex with shame: such as, saying "ew" at media images of scantily clad women, covering a child's eyes during sex scenes instead of simply choosing more appropriate programming, etc. Two recommended readings:

Protect Your Child From Sexual Abuse: A Parent's Guide (Janie Hart-Rossi) / Accompanies: "It's MY Body"
Safe Child Book: A Commonsense Approach to protecting children and teaching children to protect themselves, for children from 3 to 16 (by SHerryll Kraizer, PhD)

I agree of somewhat of what you said. Although this statement right here
"child should not see the same sex parent in the nude after about 4 years of age"
i do not have any kids right now but i am pregnant with my first. however. i still remember pretty much everything from what happened with this issue of being naked with my own family. i disgaree with that statement of being 4 and not aloud to see the SAME sex parent naked. most 4 year olds cant bathe themselves or take showers by themselves. my mom and i took showers together until i started to go through puberty, and i stopped because well hello akward lol! but i see nothing wrong with showering with teh same sex if it is with your Mother. i even bathed with friends (my own age) but for an adult i would only bathe with my Mom and right now im 16 years old, and i feel nothing wrong with how i turned out. naked is a natural thing and when i have my child, sure ill probably be like ok they can only see me naked(if its a girl) or DH naked. you know what i mean? they are very curious around 4 and its better to open them up with curiosity. and i think as long as you dont touch them innapropreitly and they dont touch you in spots that you dont want to be touched while naked it isnt considered Sexual Abuse. if they are uncomfortable then dont do it.

<33 Italy


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

I haven't had a chance to read every post, but I've been thinking about this thread more & took time away to try to focus myself on the issue in hopes of better presenting my view -- I believe that in the world of cyberspace there are a lot of miscommunications & misunderstandings....

What I presented has been taught to me by reliable professionals through an American perspective: since I have great difficulty trusting my own self with such issues because of my own trauma as a young child, I choose to seek educated individuals who I can trust to help me find what is best for MY family -- I tried to present what I learned by taking the average US family into consideration: AP parents are not usually the norm, so, fortunately, much of what I expressed may not apply to many here....

However, I feel the need personally to stress the fact that while we are more aware now than in the past, the rates of sexual abuse (2/3 of all women before the age of 12, 1/4 of all men) are still a low estimate. Also, when at least 90%of perpetrators are trusted family members or friends + the younger the child the more susceptible to emotional blackmail & the less likely to express their pain in ways that lovign adults understand ... it is still so urgent that kids develop boundaries very early in life!

Boundaries do not mean that we make children afraid of or uncomfortable by seing genitalia. It simply means that we provide the example that our bodies are private. If our own family sees us naked on occasion, then we do not freak out about it, but continue to provide the example that even looking CAN be abusive. Kids trust their parents. Kids also learn to trust family friends & relatives. If it's safe to bath with a parent, then why wouldn't they think it's safe to bath with their uncle? Then if uncle touches them, it's more likely that a child who bathes with their parents will feel that THEY did something wrong if they feel wrong & not report what their uncle did - or at the very least, not use specific enough words that adults can understand....

I thought perhaps you all might appreciate it if I opened up a bit to reveal some of my personal history as it relates to this subject?

I was sexually abused by my parents' basement tenant who was also my babysitter while my father was away & my mother need to do chores & this person also tutored me (I was "gifted"). At 4 years old, we all trusted this college student. At first he would simply call me in while I was playing outside while my parents were right at home upstairs & he would show me various media of porn. Since I had highschool aged siblings, I'd seen some scraps of porn stuffed away where they thought it was hidden. I was showering with my mom during this time & all of this continued until I was 7 years old. Even before the tenant moved in I became slightly aroused & confused in the shower with my mother after seeing my siblings' hidden porn -- it had created the connection between nakedness & sex. But by 7 I began to enjoy watching the porn in the basement & my perpetrator noticed this -- he progressed to touching me & having me touch him.... He worked me up into craving it. This caused such intense shame because at the same time my parents were teaching me not to let anyone touch me "down there" & to tell -- but I had tried telling! I said I thought *he* was YUCKY. I wash ashmed to say anything more for fear that I would get into trouble because I liked it, because I sought it out. I didn't understand that I was not responsible for this, that my perp had caused all that. So years went by of daily sexual abuse & none of my 5 family members ever noticed. They still don't know because 20+ years later I still have such intense shame that I can't face them about it even though I KNOW I didn't nothing wrong back then. FWIW, my DD self weaned around her 4th birthday & I have allowed her to "test the Leche" since when she's asked (she's turning 5 tomorrow)

My parents did everything "right" in regards to protecting me (my perp only had mere moments at a time, but he still got to me right under my parents' noses) -- I can barely function as a mother when I imagine all that could happen to my DD right in front of me ... so I do more than what is "normal" -- I teach her to love her own body, to respect herself & to value when other people respect themselves by wanting privacy, but to also value the naturalness of the human body as a divine source of knowing one's self -- I focus on simply knowing herself well enough to know what feels comfortable & what doesn't.

What's right for each family always varries & I respect each parents' decision ... I hope that no one here thinks I have tried to force my own way upon anyone else -- it's just that I tend to function under the premise that there isn't enough awareness yet & so I often toss out as much information as I can in an attempt to keep my emotional side separate from the issue so that I do not end up spewing harsh oppinions based solely on my own unfortunate experiences & fears.

PEACE


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## Lovenest (Apr 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papooses* 
I haven't had a chance to read every post, but I've been thinking about this thread more & took time away to try to focus myself on the issue in hopes of better presenting my view -- I believe that in the world of cyberspace there are a lot of miscommunications & misunderstandings....

What I presented has been taught to me by reliable professionals through an American perspective: since I have great difficulty trusting my own self with such issues because of my own trauma as a young child, I choose to seek educated individuals who I can trust to help me find what is best for MY family -- I tried to present what I learned by taking the average US family into consideration: AP parents are not usually the norm, so, fortunately, much of what I expressed may not apply to many here....

However, I feel the need personally to stress the fact that while we are more aware now than in the past, the rates of sexual abuse (2/3 of all women before the age of 12, 1/4 of all men) are still a low estimate. Also, when at least 90%of perpetrators are trusted family members or friends + the younger the child the more susceptible to emotional blackmail & the less likely to express their pain in ways that lovign adults understand ... it is still so urgent that kids develop boundaries very early in life!

Boundaries do not mean that we make children afraid of or uncomfortable by seing genitalia. It simply means that we provide the example that our bodies are private. If our own family sees us naked on occasion, then we do not freak out about it, but continue to provide the example that even looking CAN be abusive. Kids trust their parents. Kids also learn to trust family friends & relatives. If it's safe to bath with a parent, then why wouldn't they think it's safe to bath with their uncle? Then if uncle touches them, it's more likely that a child who bathes with their parents will feel that THEY did something wrong if they feel wrong & not report what their uncle did - or at the very least, not use specific enough words that adults can understand....

I thought perhaps you all might appreciate it if I opened up a bit to reveal some of my personal history as it relates to this subject?

I was sexually abused by my parents' basement tenant who was also my babysitter while my father was away & my mother need to do chores & this person also tutored me (I was "gifted"). At 4 years old, we all trusted this college student. At first he would simply call me in while I was playing outside while my parents were right at home upstairs & he would show me various media of porn. Since I had highschool aged siblings, I'd seen some scraps of porn stuffed away where they thought it was hidden. I was showering with my mom during this time & all of this continued until I was 7 years old. Even before the tenant moved in I became slightly aroused & confused in the shower with my mother after seeing my siblings' hidden porn -- it had created the connection between nakedness & sex. But by 7 I began to enjoy watching the porn in the basement & my perpetrator noticed this -- he progressed to touching me & having me touch him.... He worked me up into craving it. This caused such intense shame because at the same time my parents were teaching me not to let anyone touch me "down there" & to tell -- but I had tried telling! I said I thought *he* was YUCKY. I wash ashmed to say anything more for fear that I would get into trouble because I liked it, because I sought it out. I didn't understand that I was not responsible for this, that my perp had caused all that. So years went by of daily sexual abuse & none of my 5 family members ever noticed. They still don't know because 20+ years later I still have such intense shame that I can't face them about it even though I KNOW I didn't nothing wrong back then. FWIW, my DD self weaned around her 4th birthday & I have allowed her to "test the Leche" since when she's asked (she's turning 5 tomorrow)

My parents did everything "right" in regards to protecting me (my perp only had mere moments at a time, but he still got to me right under my parents' noses) -- I can barely function as a mother when I imagine all that could happen to my DD right in front of me ... so I do more than what is "normal" -- I teach her to love her own body, to respect herself & to value when other people respect themselves by wanting privacy, but to also value the naturalness of the human body as a divine source of knowing one's self -- I focus on simply knowing herself well enough to know what feels comfortable & what doesn't.

What's right for each family always varries & I respect each parents' decision ... I hope that no one here thinks I have tried to force my own way upon anyone else -- it's just that I tend to function under the premise that there isn't enough awareness yet & so I often toss out as much information as I can in an attempt to keep my emotional side separate from the issue so that I do not end up spewing harsh oppinions based solely on my own unfortunate experiences & fears.

PEACE

Wow Mama, I am so sorry for the events that happened to you. That's truly heart breaking.







I admire you for coming out and telling your story.

I am trying to understand where you are coming from, as a sexually abused child. And I do see your point. However, I think to each family there own.
I grew up with my mom walking around naked alot, just getting ready etc.
It never bothered me, I really never even batted an eye. But, I was never sexually abused. I never saw porn until I was 18. But, I was sexually active around 16. But, still my mom being nude was just normal to me. I a way I am glad that she showed me that the body is not a sexual thing, its just a "body". But, as you know my experience was not like yours..

I also teach my son (4) that his body is private when not in our family.
Its odd because my nieces (6) mom is VERY private and has tried to get her to be private and she is not even as close to being as private as my son. She leaves the door open to the bath room, and the other day she took her pants off in front of my son and said look at my butt. My son would not do that. He knows that his body is private and not for showing people beside mom, dad, gma and papa. But, he wont even with my parents he "slams" the bathroom door shut when he goes. I dont know what we have done different than my sister in law. It could just be personalities... But, I just found it odd that what she was trying to create with not being open about her own body is making her daughter act out.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Tiffany, I am sincerely sorry about what happened to you. No one should ever experience such things.

BUT. The way you presented your information is still offensive to many of us. If it is the way you choose to have *your* family live- by all means, that is your choice.

It would not be a healthy way for *my* family to live.

Please respect that.

-Angela


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Papooses, I feel great sympathy for you. You went through a horrible experience. I hope you understand by now that you were a VICTIM and bore absolutely no responsibility in what happened to you!!!! I hope that time will slowly heal your pain, and I am glad that you felt able to share this with us.

Still I hope you can examine what you have said....that a toddler/preschooler should not see his parent naked past 1 year of age, or he will become sexually aroused. There is certainly no scientific evidence toward this being a fact. As the matter of fact, I think it is contrary to common sense. We learn about our bodies through natural and innocent exposure. Your exposure to pornography and your subsequent abuse WARPED that for you. A two year old male, for example, is certainly not being abused by nursing.

I hope we have given you some things to think about


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

I hear what you are saying Papoose and I see the connection between porn and abuse.

What I cannot accept is that a child's comfort or confidence in his or her naked body or the 'normalness' of seeing their parents naked is related to abuse.

Abusers will abuse a child whether they are naked or dressed. The wrongness is in the abusers mind, not within the family's acceptance of each other's bodies.


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## roxyrox (Sep 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papooses* 
However, I feel the need personally to stress the fact that while we are more aware now than in the past, *the rates of sexual abuse (2/3 of all women before the age of 12, 1/4 of all men) are* still a low estimate. Also, when at least 90%of perpetrators are trusted family members or friends + the younger the child the more susceptible to emotional blackmail & the less likely to express their pain in ways that lovign adults understand ... it is still so urgent that kids develop boundaries very early in life!

PEACE

I just can't believe these numbers are true. Are you really saying that 2 out of 3 women are abused before the age of 12? I don't believe it.


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

Yes, that's what I'm saying. This is what research tells us.

I didn't post my story for support, but I thank you all!

I'm short on time (sick kid + college courses), so I want you all to know that although my response is short, it's not because my mood is....

If you re-read what I've written, you'll notice that it is based on research as was told to me through various reliable sources. You'll also notice that I do respect you. I respect you because I realize that parents here are more likely to be emotionally attuned with their children than the general American public, which HELPS reduce the risk.

Children seeing adult genitalia increases their risk, just as spanking increases risk. Neither is illegal per se, but neither is the ideal either. My main point in all this has been that parents OFTEN do not know when their children are sexually abused & children are surprisingly adept at developing coping mechanisms which protect their parents from discovering the secret. My other point being that there are other healthy ways to foster positive body image + sense of self (as well as confidence, etc) without increasing risk of the other.

I think I do not wish to discuss this anymore, though. I shared something personal & have made all the connections between my story & real life & the risks. It's up to others to either accept or reject. Because it's such a deeply disturbing issue, I do not wish to try to *persuade* anyone. It is personal for each of us. There is no right or wrong, only shades of preferences. But, I am beginning to feel more emotional about it now so I believe it's best if I refrain from the thread now.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Actually, everything I've read and professionals I've talked to have said the complete opposite of what you have posted.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papooses* 
If you re-read what I've written, you'll notice that it is based on research as was told to me through various reliable sources. You'll also notice that I do respect you. I respect you because I realize that parents here are more likely to be emotionally attuned with their children than the general American public, which HELPS reduce the risk.

Children seeing adult genitalia increases their risk, just as spanking increases risk. Neither is illegal per se, but neither is the ideal either. My main point in all this has been that parents OFTEN do not know when their children are sexually abused & children are surprisingly adept at developing coping mechanisms which protect their parents from discovering the secret. My other point being that there are other healthy ways to foster positive body image + sense of self (as well as confidence, etc) without increasing risk of the other.


I disagree with your "reliable sources" I think they're flat-out wrong. I'm sure I can find loads of research to show it too. I think they are coming from a warped point of view.

"Children seeing adult genitalia increases their risk" I totally disagree. In fact, I find it absurd.

-Angela


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

I saw my dad naked up to about 6 or 7, and then he became private about it. My DH is kind of private about it, not liking for our daughters to see him naked, but the other day my 7 year old walked into our room as DH was getting ready to get into the shower, and he didn't freak about it. He tries to act like it's no big deal even though it bugs him.

I still see my mom naked sometimes.


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

That's very interesting -- I'd like to see them discuss face to face to get a clearer picture.... I can say, though, that the people I spoke to are world renowned.

(P.S. honestly, I'm taking a break)


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papooses* 
However, I feel the need personally to stress the fact that while we are more aware now than in the past, the rates of sexual abuse (2/3 of all women before the age of 12, 1/4 of all men) are still a low estimate. Also, when at least 90%of perpetrators are trusted family members or friends + the younger the child the more susceptible to emotional blackmail & the less likely to express their pain in ways that lovign adults understand ... it is still so urgent that kids develop boundaries very early in life!


I can't believe I am asking this. I want to see your resources and their definition of sex abuse. None of the things I have read coincides with the numbers you just gave.

I guess it is because I am from MO, show me what and were you got your information.


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

I think it's pretty obvious her sexual abuse is clouding judgement on this issue.









I grew up in an open family, and have lived a life free of any sexual abuse. I think the human body was way over sexualized, and the fact that people think a CHILD can get aroused by a glance at a parent's nudity? Absurd.

I'll continue to live a life where if my child happens to see my naked body when I get out of the shower .. big deal. And I hope he learns there is nothing wrong or shameful about his body as well, certainly nothing that should be immediately hid from family members so they don't catch a glimpse it. Too wierd for me.


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## Attached Mama (Dec 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roxyrox* 
I just can't believe these numbers are true. Are you really saying that 2 out of 3 women are abused before the age of 12? I don't believe it.

haven't read all the posts and don't care too as it seems to be getting a bit heated from the few I have read. Just wanted to pop in and say that yes, those statistics are correct. Sick I know!


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

I haven't read all the responses but would you be as upset if a son saw his mother naked?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

re: the OP...I haven't read much of the rest.

It's not an issue around here.

DS1 saw me naked quite a lot until he was about 8 or 9. When dh moved in, that changed, because ds1 started knocking before coming into the bedroom and stuff like that. It still happened once in a while, but not often (ie. get up to use the bathroom naked, and ds1 was up really early or something). We moved into my mom's for a few years when ds1 was almost 10, and that was the end of that. When we moved back into our own place, ds1 was 12, and his boundaries had changed. He's not bothered by seeing my breasts (as I've had two nurslings in the last few years), but he's uncomfortable with full nudity, so that doesn't happen now. (I do still slip into the bathroom naked sometimes, so the possibility does exist, but it hasn't happened yet.)

DD will be four in May. She still sees dh naked, as we sleep naked, and she climbs in with us in the morning on the weekend. I don't care about it at all. If dh or dd ever becomes uncomfortable with nudity around each other, then the nudity will stop...no issue.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papooses View Post
Yes, exactly -- but when nudity is so commonly portrayed as sexualized & kids see this in brief images everywhere by the time they begin really thinking about their bodies, seeing the parents naked is associated with sexualized images & the stress is shown by increased heart rate, etc.... If it's a homeschooling family without TV, this probably isn't an issue whatsoever, but in most of America & other such nations, it is very real (as is the stigma & continued relative silence).
Yes, but I see the "relative silence" as furthering the taboo and sexualization. We're pretty darn open here about everything and yes, I do realize my kids will see those images around in life but hopefully, they'll have a solid grounding in reality from their family. Rather than seeing a family penis and getting excited, they're more likely to see a TV breast and say "so, what's the big deal?" My sons KNOW that breasts are functional for babies...period, end of subject...there is nothing sexy or exciting about them.


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## Lovenest (Apr 12, 2006)

Here are some stats from:
http://www.darkness2light.org/KnowAb...atistics_2.asp

Prevention Tips:

Talk openly with your child.
Good communication may decrease a child's vulnerability to sexual abuse and increase the likelihood that the child will tell you if abuse has occurred.

* Teach your children about their bodies, about what abuse is, and, when age-appropriate, about sex. Teach them words that help them discuss sex comfortably with you.
* Model caring for your own body, and teach children how to care for theirs.
* Teach children that it is "against the rules" for adults to act in a sexual way with them and use examples. Teach them what parts of their bodies others should not touch.
* Be sure to mention that the abuser might be an adult friend, family member, or older youth.
* Teach children not to give out their email addresses, home addresses, or phone numbers while using the Internet.
* Start early and talk often. Use everyday opportunities to talk about sexual abuse.
* Be proactive. If a child seems uncomfortable, or resistant to being with a particular adult, ask why.

One survey showed that fewer than 30% of parents ever discussed sexual abuse with their children.

And even then, most failed to mention that the abuser might be an adult friend or family member.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Well, heck, I get it now...

Quote:

Some basic guidelines are:

* parent of the opposite sex should stop being in the nude when the child is about 1 year of age
* child should not see the same sex parent in the nude after about 4 years of age
* child should ALWAYS innitiate conversation about their maturing body unless the topic has not been raised during the Middle School years, in which case the parents MUST innitiate the conversation before the child is immersed in High School

None of this means the child will be scared of nudity -- it's more likely that a child will be intimidated by nudity when exposed to adult nudity more often & it is also more likely that a child will be intimidated by nudity when the parent uses other overt or even covert methods to associate sex with shame: such as, saying "ew" at media images of scantily clad women, covering a child's eyes during sex scenes instead of simply choosing more appropriate programming, etc. Two recommended readings:

* Protect Your Child From Sexual Abuse: A Parent's Guide (Janie Hart-Rossi) / Accompanies: "It's MY Body"
* Safe Child Book: A Commonsense Approach to protecting children and teaching children to protect themselves, for children from 3 to 16 (by SHerryll Kraizer, PhD)
I realize that if it's in print, it must be true.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papooses* 
This caused such intense shame because at the same time my parents were teaching me not to let anyone touch me "down there" & to tell -- but I had tried telling! I said I thought *he* was YUCKY.


Quote:

My parents did everything "right" in regards to protecting me (my perp only had mere moments at a time, but he still got to me right under my parents' noses) --
Did they try to find out _why_ you thought he was "yucky"? I've also got a history of sexual abuse, and if one of my kids told me that they thought someone was yucky, I'd be very concerned about what was going on and why.

I'm not slamming your parents, because I know my mom made mistakes in how she handled things, simply through a lack of knowledge about sexual abuse (it was much more of a closed door back then). But, it doesn't sound to me as though they did "everything right", either.

I was abused by my grandfather. So was my sister. So were both my female cousins.

I eventually talked to mom about it. So did my sister.
Neither of my cousins ever did. Coincidentally or not, my sister and I lived in a home where nudity was no big deal - I know we still bathed with dad at about 3 and 4. My cousins lived in a home that followed all your rules about nudity. They had "healthy boundaries"...but they were ashamed of their bodies, and we weren't.


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *doriansmummy* 
Here are some stats from:
http://www.darkness2light.org/KnowAb...atistics_2.asp

The statistics are shocking

* 1 in 4 girls is sexually abused before the age of 18.
* 1 in 6 boys is sexually abused before the age of 18.
* 1 in 5 children are solicited sexually while on the internet.
* Nearly 70% of all reported sexual assaults (including assaults on adults) occur to children ages 17 and under.

Mmm statistics. Gotta love those guys who asked everyone in the world those questions in order to draw such accurate conclusions in points 1 - 3.

data collected from interviews of small numbers of selected participants may _reflect_ the possible incidence of the specified activity but it is wrong to extrapolate these to make absolute statements about general populations especially in this context.

These discussions just make me sad; especially when I also read of the problems women have when breastfeeding outside the home. From the outside it looks like the US is in a mortal struggle between puritanism and the objectification of the physical body.

Attaching shame to the body is no solution.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *doriansmummy* 
Here are some stats from:
http://www.darkness2light.org/KnowAb...atistics_2.asp

The statistics are shocking

* 1 in 4 girls is sexually abused before the age of 18.
* 1 in 6 boys is sexually abused before the age of 18.
* 1 in 5 children are solicited sexually while on the internet.
* Nearly 70% of all reported sexual assaults (including assaults on adults) occur to children ages 17 and under.

That's pretty horrifying..it's also a far cry from "2 out of 3 girls are abused before age 12". These stats are largely guesswork, anyway - they may be quite accurate - they may not.


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## grapejuicemama (Nov 18, 2005)

I was raised by a (mostly) single mother and I saw her naked pretty often. She was married twice and I never saw either of her husbands naked and I'm glad about that, since they weren't my dads. I'm not sure how I would have felt about it if I did have a dad that I saw naked. I still see my mom naked occassionally.

DD is 5.5 and bathes with her 3 y/o brother and sometimes showers with me. She's used to seeing me naked and I'm glad that she can see me naked as my pregnancy progresses, so she gets an idea of what it's like. DS still showers with me occassionally also.

DH always asks DD to leave the bedroom if he's about to change and he isn't comfortable with her seeing him naked. If she does on accident, and she has, we don't make a big deal of it.

Lately, we've been talking more about our bodies and how they're different and while I'm not sure yet how to approach it, since I never had to deal with or learn how to talk about what makes boys different, I'm preparing myself for these conversations. We've always talked about how our bodies are ours and what is ok and not ok, but I think we probably do need to get a little more "in-depth" about it.

I'll probably continue to let them see me naked occassionally as long as we're _all_ comfortable with it. The moment I feel uncomfortable about it or sense discomfort in either one of my kids, the modesty level will shift to accomodate that.


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## MelKnee (Dec 5, 2001)

Nudity is no big deal around here. Ds still bathes with me and showers with dh. I imagine dd will also. We sleep in the nude and change clothes in front of each other. We will continue until someone gets uncomfortable.


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## napua (Feb 1, 2006)

Nudity is a non-issue around here. I don't think it is healthy to act as though the human body is to be shamed.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grapejuicemama* 
I I'll probably continue to let them see me naked occassionally as long as we're _all_ comfortable with it. The moment I feel uncomfortable about it or sense discomfort in either one of my kids, the modesty level will shift to accomodate that.

That's pretty much how I feel about it.

I must say that the "talking about how we're different" has resulted in one moment of acute embarrassment for my teenager. His little sister walked up to him where he was lying on the couch and started explaining to him that he had a penis. He kind of mumbled, and she started yelling "you _do_ have a penis, ds1 - you do have one" over and over. It was sooooo hard not to laugh, but he was obviously upset.


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## Lovenest (Apr 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
That's pretty horrifying..it's also a far cry from "2 out of 3 girls are abused before age 12". These stats are largely guesswork, anyway - they may be quite accurate - they may not.


I know they may not be accurate, but I figured I would post them.
It seemed some posters were wondering about the % of abused children.
I know alot of people never even tell anyone about abuse.
Either way its awful.. 1 out of 4 or 2 out of 3. Even 1 child...


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

But if the stats are inaccurate, then they are contributing to a hysteria. YES no-one should be abused, 0 out of 4 is the goal, but I really hate to see people get hyped up and paranoid over false or inaccurate reporting of statistics.


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## mamabain (Sep 19, 2002)

wow. my girls will see daddy naked until they or he are uncomfortable. hasn't happened yet. girls are 5 and 2


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## Lovenest (Apr 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BusyMommy* 
But if the stats are inaccurate, then they are contributing to a hysteria. YES no-one should be abused, 0 out of 4 is the goal, but I really hate to see people get hyped up and paranoid over false or inaccurate reporting of statistics.

Well these are prob as close to accurate as it gets.
I looked for about an hour at stats and this was about what I got everywhere i looked. I just thought it was good info that the site was giving, and also good info on how to prevent abuse. Knowledge is power.

I would not intentionally create hysteria, that's not me. I went back and erased the stats, if people would like they can look at the website and find it themselves. Sorry if I stepped on any toes.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Oh no, I'm sorry, I'm not speaking to you directly. I'm just speaking to the bandwagon people jump on.
The whole issue sucks--sorry


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *doriansmummy* 
Well these are prob as close to accurate as it gets.
I looked for about an hour at stats and this was about what I got everywhere i looked. I just thought it was good info that the site was giving, and also good info on how to prevent abuse. Knowledge is power.

I would not intentionally create hysteria, that's not me. I went back and erased the stats, if people would like they can look at the website and find it themselves. Sorry if I stepped on any toes.

I think her point was that 2 out of 3 represents 67% of girls. 1 out of 4 is only 25%. Yes it's still a big number but it is much much smaller than 67%.

I answered the one that was who cares however that was phrased. I grew up with no nudity in my home. I can remember being shamed for walking around in my panties and camisole when I was 4 or something ridiculous like that because I was showing off inappropriately. I remember my sister and I being sat down and given a lecture complete with quotes from the Bible about the sins of incest after we were caught wrestling on our bed and I looked down her pants and said "I see your butt!" I was 4, she was 5.5. My husband grew up with a single mom and she was naked around him as a part of normal life. He would sit in the bathroom and talk to her while she took a bath and vice versa. When we started dating in high school this seemed like the height of inappropriateness to me. Now I'm probably much more comfortable with nudity than he is.









Currently Dh usually takes off his pants after dinner if not the second he walks in the door. He usually sleeps in just his underwear. He bathes in a shower with a clear glass door and everyone comes and goes while he's in there and stops to chat with him. He still bathes with the girls (4 and almost 2) on a fairly regular basis. DD#1 has never seemed to be that interested in his penis other than the typical "you have a penis" type stuff. She does sometimes pull on her labia and say "Look I have two penises" and she'll say when she grows up and becomes a boy then she'll have a penis. DD#2 has been more interested in the penis in the bathtub if it was floating. It's clearly not a sexual interest but a "hey what's that bobbing in the water." She is easily redirected to a toy. Other than that if he is changing he has no problem with them being in there at this time. At the point that he or they become uncomfortable it will stop. I'm guessing that will be around the age of 8 or so but we'll see. They can see me naked until it becomes an issue and that would be I have no idea when. Puberty? Never but stop bathing with me when they're large enough physically that it would be a pain? Sooner than that? (Which would be awesome because I've barely taken a bath by myself for the last four years!







) If I had a son I wouldn't do anything differently. DD#1 weaned at four which was my personal cutoff but might be different for each child but certainly until at least age 4 he'd be allowed to see my nah-nahs. Neither child has the slightest concept of my breasts as genitalia. We were eating lunch at a friend's house recently and I asked DD#2 if she wanted nah-nahs. The little boy there said he wanted some nah-nahs and his mom said "You don't know what nah-nahs are do you?" He said no and my DD pulled her shirt down, pointed at her nipple and said "They're these. These are nah-nahs." He had only recently weaned himself and has a brother who nurses so he was just like "oh ok." There was nothing remotely weird about the scene because to them boobs weren't sexualized.







:

Now my DD loves to be naked. Loves loves loves it. She usually will take off her pants the first times she goes to the bathroom after she comes home on a school day and if not she almost always strips at bedtime. She just doesn't like sleeping in anything for the most part. And around us I think that's totally fine. When she wants to wear clothes around us then she will. She does however know that when other people are around she is supposed to wear clothes. Some days she'll ask "Mom is anybody coming over today?" because she wants to know if she has to get dressed or not. I don't want to teach my girls that their bodies are bad or dirty. They are taught that their bodies are theirs and that no one can touch their vaginas except them (except for diaper changing/ toliet help). But because for us some level of nudity is normal there does not seem to be any shame associated with it at all. There just really isn't.


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## MomToKandE (Mar 11, 2006)

Dd is 6 and is not showing a desire for privacy yet. She still takes baths with ds (3) and is around as dh is getting dressed. When she's older and wants privacy then dh will cover up as well.

When ds was born I thought there would be lots of questions about boy parts and girl parts but honestly she's not very interested in the differences. She's more interested in the fact that she and I are both girls but I have "fur" (her word) down there and she doesn't.


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

Quote:

Originally Posted by doriansmummy
Here are some stats from:
http://www.darkness2light.org/KnowAb...atistics_2.asp

The statistics are shocking

* 1 in 4 girls is sexually abused before the age of 18.
* 1 in 6 boys is sexually abused before the age of 18.
* 1 in 5 children are solicited sexually while on the internet.
* Nearly 70% of all reported sexual assaults (including assaults on adults) occur to children ages 17 and under.
I wonder if those stats include cases like one I heard of recently, where a 15 year old girl went down on her 17 year old boyfriend (voluntarily), her parents found out and now he's in jail for a very long time (unless he appeals again and wins) with a sex offender label for life. I've actually heard of several similar cases. I don't consider those abuse and I think the treatment of the boy is despicable, but I suspect that those would be included.


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
This is a good point.

For me, my dad's openness allowed me to feel safe in my relationship with him. It felt open like there weren't areas we couldn't talk about with eachother, without any suggestion of taboo topics.

-Angela

Exactly. And I found it pretty easy to say "hey, put on a robe, I don't wanna see that!" when I wasn't comfortable with it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaskyla* 
Dh is actually more modest around the boys than I am. Until recently ds2 had separation anxiety and I could not go to the bathroom with the door closed or leave it closed for a shower, so ds1 saw me a lot. We're working with him on closed bathroom doors=private, even for mommy (he gets that for daddy & grandma, but since he's never had to deal with me wanting privacy before, it's weird for him. Both kids regularly are around when I get changed and ds1 took pictures at ds2's birth. I don't think it's a big deal. I do find it a bit weird that my mother doesn't have a problem changing in front of them, but she's never had a problem changing in front of me either.


I just have a girl, so I wouldn't find it odd if she changed in front of Rachel. Now if papa did, that might be a little odd. As I said before, it' wasn't a big deal, I did see him naked when I was under 10. But I don't think he'd be comfortable changing around Rachel.


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

i want to thank papoose for being brave to not only tell her story, but to stick with a discussion and giving a point of view that is not often heard and is in stark contrast to what most mamas here do.

and, i think people are getting a bit snarky.

i have not been abused (thankfully) and as i got older adn learned more about my friends, i realized that *i was lucky*. I could have been- our landlord in one place we lived kissed me inappropriately on the mouth once ( i was in 3rd grade) . it could have gone further and worse and i feel so grateful that was all and i was never scarred for it, though it is also a vivid memory.

but i have learned from my friends who have been abused that it affects all aspects of your life and yes, clearly her experience has affected this aspect of raising her child. enough already. she has already stated that she understands most MDC mamas are different and she respects what others do. if changing her perspective was as easy as reading an MDC thread, i am sure it would have been changed long ago.

sorry papoose if i interpreting you wrong, but while your guidelines wouldn't work in my family, i see where you are coming from and i think in certain cases, it is absolutely appropriate.

for example, i *would* consider an adult who is blatently nude often in front of young children (esp. ones not his/her own) potentially abusive if it makes those children uncomfortable. there is a power dynamic there and while we all like to believe we are raising our kids to be outspoken about how they feel, it is *hard* to go against an adult, esp. one you know and love.

our dd loves to be nude, but i felt after 1 yr. i wanted her to have bottoms on around adults besides me and dh and maybe my mom. she would want to sit on laps and end up flinging her legs all about, her yoni all exposed and i just thought it was too much. i didn't want to freak her out or anything but i would gently tell her she needs to put on pants when we knew other family or friends were coming over (not if we had a bunch of kids all swimming nakies or something). only dh and i and grandmothers bathe her... no way male family members. i trust them, but still... it just feels better. its not a blatant rule or anything, in fact there's never been a discussion, but that's how it happens.

oh, and dd started to get curious about dh's penis when she was about 18 m. or so and he started wearing trunks w. her in the tub- she wanted to touch it and was a bit fascinated and he was more comfortable in trunks.

it *is* true that children are sexual beings- i think the term 'aroused' is a loaded one- but intense curiosity and excitement, definitely. i mean, i knew my was allllll around my parts at a very young age







, so i get where some of that is coming from. When dd was little (like 2 or so) she asked once or twice for us to tickle her yoni. obviously we said no, that was not appropriate her yoni was for her only and she could touch it if she wanted in her room. that was the kind of thing that made me freak a bit about her being naked w. other adults.

anyway, this has turned into a novel but i guess my overall point is that this is such a sticky situation and while yes, i think comfort with nudity is wonderful there are other issues that bear thinking about (not that no one is...).

ok, enough out of me!


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmainer* 
i want to thank papoose for being brave to not only tell her story, but to stick with a discussion and giving a point of view that is not often heard and is in stark contrast to what most mamas here do...









Thanks, papoose!


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

:

Yep, I totally agree w/that!


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## Ambrose (Apr 20, 2004)

We're pretty open about nudity too. DH occassionally gets embarrassed but that's usually when DD goes up to him and points and says "butt"







when he's naked or finishing going in the bathroom. It's usually not an issue though.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

I think 1 in 4 is low, but that's from my own experiences and my friends' experiences. I know I was assaulted before 18 and never told my parents and never reported it etc. I have at least one other friend like that, so add that to the 1 in 4 and you're getting closer to the 2 in 3. Obviously there will never be accurate stats on this, but why should it matter? It happens and however we choose to try and make sure it doesn't happen to our children, hopefully will work!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thepeach80* 
I think 1 in 4 is low, but that's from my own experiences and my friends' experiences. I know I was assaulted before 18 and never told my parents and never reported it etc. I have at least one other friend like that, so add that to the 1 in 4 and you're getting closer to the 2 in 3. Obviously there will never be accurate stats on this, but why should it matter? It happens and however we choose to try and make sure it doesn't happen to our children, hopefully will work!

Many, maybe most, of my female friends were sexually assaulted, too. Most of my male friends were also sexually abused (despite the stats that consistently show a lower rate for boys). However, 100% of my friends had at least one parent who's an alcoholic, so I tend to avoid using my personal circle of friends as a baseline. I know full well that the percentage of people who grow up with an alcoholic parent might be high - but it's not 100%. I think I was always drawn, without realizing it, to people who had the same kind of crap in their lives that I did. I simply couldn't relate to people who thought sexual abuse or a drunken parent was something horrible to "ooh" and "ahh" over in movie. Their lives weren't real to me at all.

Most of my old friends are out of the picture now, and I'm starting to meet people without that kind of background.

I was wondering about the "2 out of 3" women thing, because I'd seen stats cited many, many times and they were never that high before. I wondered where the number had come from.


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## ledzepplon (Jun 28, 2004)

My dd is 2.5, and we don't care at this point who sees who naked. (I voted "no big deal.")

I think when she gets a little older, we'll limit the opposite-gender parental nudity. That means, if she walks in the room, oops. But we'll be more modest in general.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Oh, yeah - with respect to children learning when it's appropriate to be naked...ds1 was a total nudist until he was about 5. He didn't really see any reason to wear clothes most of the time, and I'm not all that fond of laundry, so... anyway - he wasn't dressed a whole lot, unless we were going out.

I've never had an issue with him. He never insisted on being naked if we told him that a given place or event required clothing. The only vestige left of my first little nudist (I have two new ones) is that he likes to wander around with no shirt on. He's also inordinately comfortable with his body, and doesn't freak out about sex and sexual topics. (This is the kid who gave his female elementary school principal and three female grade 7 classmates all the reasons why routine c-sections weren't a great idea, and why natural birth was better, etc. He was also completely unphased by the sex ed curriculum, which included a childbirth video. That's not from being around when I had his siblings, either - they were both "born" by c-section at the hospital.)


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Abuse in all forms impacts us profoundly and I respectfully request that we remain compassionate in our responses.









DC


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

I think 1/4 women and 1/6 men comes a lot closer to the truth of the matter. Anecdotally (since so many people have told their stories and how many friends they know who were abused), I have never been the victim of any sort of sexual violence, neither has my male partner, my sister, or either of my best friends (1 male, 1 female). I have heard many personal stories and statistics on sexual violence as I got my BA in Women's and Gender Studies, and I think saying 2/3 women are sexually abused before 12 is completely, totally untrue and could lead to paranoia and hysteria. I understand that having that type of experience affects someone's perception but those of us with a less biased perception can come to a more sensible conclusion, IMO.
I don't think that outlawing nudity in the home is a good way to prevent child abuse. I think raising confident children who feel empowered in their own bodies and can speak up for themselves is the way to protect them. And keeping a close eye on our young children, of course. My son is very shy and tries too hard to please everyone-- so I keep him under close wraps for the time being. But I do trust people outside of myself with his safety.


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## roxyrox (Sep 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hottmama* 
I think 1/4 women and 1/6 men comes a lot closer to the truth of the matter. Anecdotally (since so many people have told their stories and how many friends they know who were abused), I have never been the victim of any sort of sexual violence, neither has my male partner, my sister, or either of my best friends (1 male, 1 female). I have heard many personal stories and statistics on sexual violence as I got my BA in Women's and Gender Studies, and I think saying 2/3 women are sexually abused before 12 is completely, totally untrue and could lead to paranoia and hysteria. I understand that having that type of experience affects someone's perception but those of us with a less biased perception can come to a more sensible conclusion, IMO.
I don't think that outlawing nudity in the home is a good way to prevent child abuse. I think raising confident children who feel empowered in their own bodies and can speak up for themselves is the way to protect them. And keeping a close eye on our young children, of course. My son is very shy and tries too hard to please everyone-- so I keep him under close wraps for the time being. But I do trust people outside of myself with his safety.


I love your post. You said what I felt, only much more eloquently. I still find it hard to accept that 25% of women are sexually abused before 18 but it does seem a lot more realistic.

It just got to me that it was quoted as "fact" that "the majority of women are sexually abused before 12 years old". 67% of women are abused before they are 12?







: How can anyone believe that - it is so obviously untrue.

For the record too, I have never been abused and I don't know anyone who has and I have a wide circle of friends who are all pretty open. I think sexual abuse of children is fortunatley rare. It is awful that it happens at all. No child should have to go through that but I think it is the exception, not the norm. Children shouldn't grow up suspecting people and having to cover up. I also agree that child nudity doesn't have any baring on whether a child will be abused. In fact I think the opposite.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roxyrox* 
For the record too, I have never been abused and I don't know anyone who has...

This is interesting to me. Either people were sexually abused and so were many of their friends and aquaintances, or else they were not abused and neither were any of their friends or aquaintances.

I was abused, in several circumstances, different ages, different people. Many, many women I know were abused, to the point where I have been left with the impression that the majority of women don't make it to adulthood without it.

Maybe it has to do with the vulnerability of the child. Like me, most of my friends were from broken homes and had single, working parents. We were all relatively unsupervised throughout out childhoods and there was a lot of probably inappropriate interaction with older kids and adults that a more protected child wouldn't typically experience.

Maybe the unmolested crowds are the more traditionally parented kids? I wasn't hanging out with those kids, usually because their parents thought I was a bad influence







.


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## eviesingleton (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
This is interesting to me. Either people were sexually abused and so were many of their friends and aquaintances, or else they were not abused and neither were any of their friends or aquaintances.


But how do we know for certain that they weren't abused? Because they haven't said anything? I also think that when one person in a group of people says they are abused, more people will confide in that person.

Quote:

Maybe it has to do with the vulnerability of the child. Like me, most of my friends were from broken homes and had single, working parents. We were all relatively unsupervised throughout out childhoods and there was a lot of probably inappropriate interaction with older kids and adults that a more protected child wouldn't typically experience.

Maybe the unmolested crowds are the more traditionally parented kids? I wasn't hanging out with those kids, usually because their parents thought I was a bad influence







.

Aside from the part about being vulnerable, there are so many thing wrong with that statement that I don't know where to begin. I really don't see how "traditional" parenting has ANYTHING to do with vulnerablity. If anything, I see conservative and traditional parents as more likely not to equipt their children with the skill necessary to protect themselves and come forth when something happens. For example, it is okay to kick an adult male in the balls and run away screaming if he tries to push himself on you.

I know someone who wish her mother had told her that.

That said, I don't think parenting (by itself) has much to do with it (of course, unless the parent is the abuser).

Think about how many children are abused by teachers, coaches, priests, scout leaders, other family members--all of those seem pretty traditional to me.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eviesingleton* 
That said, I don't think parenting (by itself) has much to do with it (of course, unless the parent is the abuser).

Think about how many children are abused by teachers, coaches, priests, scout leaders, other family members--all of those seem pretty traditional to me.

Those are the sensational cases that make the news, but most molested children aren't abused by priests or coaches. Usually it's an 'uncle' who is watching the kids while mom is out bar hopping, or it's the case of an eleven year old girl who is hanging out unsupervised with grown men who then treat her as though she's a consenting sexual adult.

Kids who are growing up in poverty, with substance abuse and parental neglect are profoundly vulnerable to precocious and exploitive sexual experiences, usually starting in early childhood.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Those are the sensational cases that make the news, but most molested children aren't abused by priests or coaches. Usually it's an 'uncle' who is watching the kids while mom is out bar hopping, or it's the case of an eleven year old girl who is hanging out unsupervised with grown men who then treat her as though she's a consenting sexual adult.

Kids who are growing up in poverty, with substance abuse and parental neglect are profoundly vulnerable to precocious and exploitive sexual experiences, usually starting in early childhood.

That's a pretty broad generalization, don't ya think? Do you have any numbers to back it up?

I was abused by my grandfather and a school janitor, and I can assure you that my mom was not out bar hopping, nor did we live in poverty. I have several friends who were abused by fathers, step-fathers and older brothers. I know of _none_ who were abused while mom was out bar hopping or otherwise neglecting her kids.


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 

Maybe the unmolested crowds are the more traditionally parented kids? I wasn't hanging out with those kids, usually because their parents thought I was a bad influence







.

i think this can be a misleading line of thought (not saying that you are perpetuating it...). Kind of like the idea that alcoholism and drug abuse are more rampant in "broken" and "dysfunctional" families, which is untrue. in fact, many, many scary and unbelievable things happen behind white picket fences and happy families with 2.5 children.

I said in my post that i was not abused and my parents divorced when i was 8, i was a latch key kid and moved and went to a different school nearly every year. i was often alone after school for about 2 hours waiting for my mom to pick me up. There were so many situations i was in that could have led me into harmful situations, but they just didn't. who knows. many factors come into play, and while there are some things that make one more at risk and lots of things we can do as parents to help and protect our kids, there are no silver bullets.


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## eviesingleton (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Those are the sensational cases that make the news, but most molested children aren't abused by priests or coaches. Usually it's an 'uncle' who is watching the kids while mom is out bar hopping, or it's the case of an eleven year old girl who is hanging out unsupervised with grown men who then treat her as though she's a consenting sexual adult.

I think you are the one who is pointing to the sensationalized cases. And no, I don't think that coaches/priests and so forth are the sensational cases. It has been stated over and over that a child is more likely to be abused by someone they know and trust, family or otherwise. And your example of the neglectful mother is just as "sensational" and mom-blaming as anything I've ever seen in the news. Sometimes mom is at a PTA meeting or buying groceries or (gasp) out with some friends playing bridge while her brother or her own father is watching the kids and they turn out to be the abuser.

Quote:

Kids who are growing up in poverty, with substance abuse and parental neglect are profoundly vulnerable to precocious and exploitive sexual experiences, usually starting in early childhood.

Sure they are, but painting this kind of generalization neglects the fact that many, many middle class children are also abused.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eviesingleton* 
Sure they are, but painting this kind of generalization neglects the fact that many, many middle class children are also abused.

I'm trying to make sense of the many posters on this thread who discount the high numbers of abused kids. Because I guarantee it's not the kids from the dangerous side of the tracks telling people that they've never been abused and they don't know anyone who has. They've seen it plenty, kwim?

That doesn't mean, of course, that ONLY impoverished children, or neglected children, or children from homes shattered by substance abuse have been abused.

But, if you poll the kids from my dd's affluent, well run private preschool, kids with attentive, interested parents who know where exactly where their child is at any given moment of the day, the incidence of sexual abuse will be far less. That doensn't mean none of the children are abused. But kids running the streets at 10pm unsupervised get abused a lot more readily than those tucked safely into bed hearing a bedtime story.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I'm trying to make sense of the many posters on this thread who discount the high numbers of abused kids. Because I guarantee it's not the kids from the dangerous side of the tracks telling people that they've never been abused and they don't know anyone who has. They've seen it plenty, kwim?

How do you know? Until I was in my 20s, I didn't talk about my abuse until someone else had opend up first. As I said earlier, I had a very skewed notion of how many people had been sexually abused because my particular friends had been.

Quote:

But, if you poll the kids from my dd's affluent, well run private preschool, kids with attentive, interested parents who know where exactly where their child is at any given moment of the day, the incidence of sexual abuse will be far less.
How do you know? Have you polled the kids?

I still think you're painting with a pretty broad brush. And, fwiw, the high school I went to, where I met most of the friends I've been talking about, was in a quite well-to-do cacchment area. My elementary school was the one "feeder" school that was in a low-income neighbourhood. Plenty of these kids were sexually abused, without substance abuse issues, neglectful parents or poverty playing a role.

That doensn't mean none of the children are abused. But kids running the streets at 10pm unsupervised get abused a lot more readily than those tucked safely into bed hearing a bedtime story.[/QUOTE]


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## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

We all see each other naked. My kids are 3 (girl) and 5.5 (boy). We'll stop when I sense/notice discomfort by anyone.


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## angela&avery (May 30, 2002)

my husband and i still walk around naked after our showers.. or to our room to get dressed or whatever. Often my dh puts boxers on the bathroom, but when we are getting ready quickly, both kids shower with both parents on occasion. I always walk naked from the bathroom to my room and I will stop when my children become uncomfortable. I dont think its necessary to make such a big deal out of it.


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## frenchie (Mar 21, 2006)

My son is 4 (this month) and still takes showers with us. When he decides he's uncomfortable showering with us, or seeing us naked...we'll respect that. I just don't see the big deal.


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## frenchie (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papooses* 
I'm all for helping Leila feel confident with her self, her body & people in general.... However, I was also sexually abused as a preschooler by my neighbor/tutor -- my method of coping with this added dynamic to parenting a girl was to research child gender + sexual development, discuss with therapists who help child victims of sexual abuse, etc.

I'm a survivor myself. I was abused for 6 years of my childhood. I struggled a lot with the residual effects of abuse, once I had my son. How much affection was appropriate, was I giving him too much affection? Was it ok to touch his penis while cleaning him? Was it ok for ME to talk to him about his penis once he asked questions? Being a survivor and a parent is a tough place to be in. Partly because we're told over and over that abusers are the product of abuse. The odds are against us.

*Seeing adults' genitalia can & does produce confusion + arousal in most children: this can be considered sexual abuse even when there is no other sexual activity*
Reading this just kills me. To be told that I'm abusing my child because he sees me naked is just...I don't even have a word to attach to my feelings. I have never seen any indication that my son is aroused by seeing DH or I naked. Showering with us is just a normal everyday activity. Otherwise, we don't just waltz around our house naked.....(well, he does because he loves to be naked). He knows that him and daddy have a "penis" and mommy has a "vagina". It's just not a big deal. Nudity isn't shamed in our house.

*it disrupts the child's natural discovery of the human body & triggers anxiety over what their own body will become*
I cannot buy into this either. My son has asked many questions about his body parts. He's asked daddy about his penis, since DH is cut, and DS is intact. He's asked me about my vagina as well. We answered his questions in an age appropriate manner. I feel this is all part of the "natural discovery of the human body"...no anxiety, no embarassment and no disruption in the "natural process"...however it is defined.

It is every parent's job to protect their child. However, no matter how dilligent we are about educating our children on this subject, it still happens. I made a decision not to project my own fears, discomfort and anxiety onto my children. I will do the best I can to educate them, and one day share my childhood experience with them. Until then, I take what I feel are common sense precautions to protect my child(ren).


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## eviesingleton (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I'm trying to make sense of the many posters on this thread who discount the high numbers of abused kids. Because I guarantee it's not the kids from the dangerous side of the tracks telling people that they've never been abused and they don't know anyone who has. They've seen it plenty, kwim?

.


Your posts are amazingly contradictory. The ONLY way to make sense of the high number of abused kids is to count middle and upper class kids in those numbers.


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## eviesingleton (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:

it disrupts the child's natural discovery of the human body & triggers anxiety over what their own body will become
I can think of nothing LESS natural than imposing such rigid and puritanical guidelines.

If this work for a particular family; if this atmosphere is the most comfortable for those involved that is one thing. But I think that it is this kind of rigidity that is at the root of our culture's (Western/United States) incredibly unhealthy attitude toward nudity and sexuality and produces far more sexual pathology and predatory behavior than seeing your mum or dad nakers after a shower every now and then.

But I don't have any "evidence" so just ignore me.


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## NamastePlatypus (Jan 22, 2007)

I think it depends on the sensitivity of those envolved. I think the bigger deal YOU make out of the bigger deal THEY think it is. I don't want my dc to think of their bodies as shameful but at the same time it is not okay to be willey nilly


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Not a big deal if it happens. Though dh is more private then I am with all of our children.


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## Kleine Hexe (Dec 2, 2001)

I keep waiting for the culture in the US to leave it's Puritan influence behind. Sigh. Hasn't happened yet.

It's all cultural. There are societies where everyone walks around almost completely naked. I don't think there are rampant abuse cases happening there.


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## Emma's_Mommy (Apr 28, 2006)

Dh use to take DD in the shower alot when she was younger (she went through a phase when she hated baths) but that quickly stopped when DD grabbed ahold of DH's extra part when he bent forward to shampoo her hair....

so now DH does not get naked in front of DD....

and as a side note i must say DH made the loudest yelp when DD grabbed ahold of his man part


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## melissel (Jun 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Those are the sensational cases that make the news, but most molested children aren't abused by priests or coaches. Usually it's an 'uncle' who is watching the kids while mom is out bar hopping, or it's the case of an eleven year old girl who is hanging out unsupervised with grown men who then treat her as though she's a consenting sexual adult.

Kids who are growing up in poverty, with substance abuse and parental neglect are profoundly vulnerable to precocious and exploitive sexual experiences, usually starting in early childhood.

Yeah, I'd be interested in seeing the numbers on this as well, as the people I know have been molested were abused while, in one case, their very religious mother visited with family while several other family members were doing horrifying things to one of my dearest friends, and in another case, while the rest of the family sat downstairs visiting and socializing while the abuser took advantage of the children upstairs. Oh, right, and then there's the other side of the family where the abuser also took advantage at family gatherings.

I think this is an issue that affects every family, regardless of income, class, ethnicity, social status, whatever. I think the kids who are hanging out unsupervised are being abused, as are the kids whose parents know exactly where they are and believe they are with a trustworthy adult. Sexual predators know exactly where to look for their opportunities--ALL of them.


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## frenchie (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roxyrox* 
I still find it hard to accept that 25% of women are sexually abused before 18 but it does seem a lot more realistic.

It just got to me that it was quoted as "fact" that "the majority of women are sexually abused before 12 years old". 67% of women are abused before they are 12?







: How can anyone believe that - it is so obviously untrue.

For the record too, I have never been abused and I don't know anyone who has and I have a wide circle of friends who are all pretty open. I think sexual abuse of children is fortunatley rare.

Do you honestly think all of your friends have TOLD you everything? It doesn't matter how open a person is, sexual abuse is not easy for everybody to talk about, IF they can talk about it at all. It's not just casual conversation. Have you asked every single one of your friends if they have experience sexual abuse as a child?
The reality is, child sexual abuse is NOT rare...it just isn't. Being a survivor myself, I have had the opportunity to talk in depth with countless girls/women over the years about sexual abuse. It's something I'm able to be rather open about. My openess has encouraged people to open up to *me* about their own experiences. Often I'm one of only a few that knows of their abuse....so don't go assuming that you don't know anybody who has experienced sexual abuse. My DH didn't open up to me about his abuse until after we were married for about 2 years. Up until then, I had been very open with him about my own experiences....yet he felt too much shame to share his experiences with me.
Based on my personal knowledge and social interactions with others who have been abused, I tend to believe the 67% statistic....rather than the 25% statistic.


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## Kleine Hexe (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frenchie* 
Do you honestly think all of your friends have TOLD you everything? It doesn't matter how open a person is, sexual abuse is not easy for everybody to talk about, IF they can talk about it at all. It's not just casual conversation. Have you asked every single one of your friends if they have experience sexual abuse as a child?

And even if you do ask they may flat out lie about it. Not everyone will admit to abuse.


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## roxyrox (Sep 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frenchie* 
Do you honestly think all of your friends have TOLD you everything? It doesn't matter how open a person is, sexual abuse is not easy for everybody to talk about, IF they can talk about it at all. It's not just casual conversation. Have you asked every single one of your friends if they have experience sexual abuse as a child?
The reality is, child sexual abuse is NOT rare...it just isn't. Being a survivor myself, I have had the opportunity to talk in depth with countless girls/women over the years about sexual abuse. It's something I'm able to be rather open about. My openess has encouraged people to open up to *me* about their own experiences. Often I'm one of only a few that knows of their abuse....so don't go assuming that you don't know anybody who has experienced sexual abuse. My DH didn't open up to me about his abuse until after we were married for about 2 years. Up until then, I had been very open with him about my own experiences....yet he felt too much shame to share his experiences with me.
Based on my personal knowledge and social interactions with others who have been abused, I tend to believe the 67% statistic....rather than the 25% statistic.

I am nearly 100% certain that none of my friends I had growing up was sexually abused. We all lived in the same street, went to the same school, I knew their parents well. We saw each other every single day. There was no abuse going on.

As for my friends I have made as an adult, at university, I would be so, so surprised if any of them had been sexually abused either. It is a subject that we have talked about (commenting on stories of abuse in the media for example) and they have all, like me expressed utter horror that anyone could do such things to a child. They (like me) find it hard to imagine because it is so far removed from their own experiences growing up.

I find it sad that people can believe that the majority of children in our society are abused before they are 12 years old.







:


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## eviesingleton (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roxyrox* 
I am nearly 100% certain that none of my friends I had growing up was sexually abused. We all lived in the same street, went to the same school, I knew their parents well. We saw each other every single day. There was no abuse going on.

As for my friends I have made as an adult, at university, I would be so, so surprised if any of them had been sexually abused either. It is a subject that we have talked about (commenting on stories of abuse in the media for example) and they have all, like me expressed utter horror that anyone could do such things to a child. They (like me) find it hard to imagine because it is so far removed from their own experiences growing up.

I find it sad that people can believe that the majority of children in our society are abused before they are 12 years old.







:

Wow! Not just a river.

The insidious nature of abuse is that it isn't readily apparent to outside observers. I grew up with a girl who, by all accounts, was "normal" and it wasn't until years and years had gone by that we learned that her father was sexually abusing her and her sister. And it doesn't sound to me like any of your friends had any substantial conversations about abuse. I've known plenty of women who, in some circles will express profound disbelief, but later admit their own experience.


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## frenchie (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kleine Hexe* 
And even if you do ask they may flat out lie about it. Not everyone will admit to abuse.

exatly!!


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## frenchie (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roxyrox* 
*I am nearly 100% certain that none of my friends I had growing up was sexually abused. We all lived in the same street, went to the same school, I knew their parents well. We saw each other every single day. There was no abuse going on.*

As for my friends I have made as an adult, at university, I would be so, so surprised if any of them had been sexually abused either. It is a subject that we have talked about (commenting on stories of abuse in the media for example) and they have all, like me expressed utter horror that anyone could do such things to a child. They (like me) find it hard to imagine because it is so far removed from their own experiences growing up.

I find it sad that people can believe that the majority of children in our society are abused before they are 12 years old.







:

I still feel like you're making assumptions. I'm just as horrified as the next person, that anybody would sexually abuse children.
What's so *sad* about *believeing* that so many children ARE molested? I find it *sad* that so many children *ARE* molested.

The part of your post I bolded above....I just have to say that none of that matters. How well you knew their parents, and how often you saw those kids is irrelevant to what could be happening when you're not with them. They could've been molested by a parent, family member, close family friend....or even a leader at camp. You just never truely KNOW unless they tell you.


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## roxyrox (Sep 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frenchie* 
I still feel like you're making assumptions. I'm just as horrified as the next person, that anybody would sexually abuse children.
What's so *sad* about *believeing* that so many children ARE molested? I find it *sad* that so many children *ARE* molested.

The part of your post I bolded above....I just have to say that none of that matters. How well you knew their parents, and how often you saw those kids is irrelevant to what could be happening when you're not with them. They could've been molested by a parent, family member, close family friend....or even a leader at camp. You just never truely KNOW unless they tell you.


Maybe none of that does matter but I *know* these girls so well kwim?

The girls I grew up with and the girls I went to university with (we lived together in the same house for 4 years.). We talked about _everything_. I really, really think if they had been abused they would have told me at some point. You are right, maybe no one will truly know though.

I found it sad that people can truly believe that that many children are abused because I think that's such a sad reflection on our society, that people believe there are that many people out there who would abuse children. Of course it is more sad that children *are* molested. I was talking earlier today about this post with a couple of friends. I asked them how many children they thought suffered sexual abuse. Their answer? Both said less than 10%. So maybe I was wrong, I don't think most people do believe that many children are abused. Maybe people who were abused growing up might believe it? I don't know.


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Did it ever occur to you that people who are abused live in total fear? I was physically, sexually, and emotionally abused by my father from birth, and none of my friends knew. Why on earth would I go blabbing it when I knew the man was capable of killing me and he had TOLD ME he would kill me if I told? For six years I was with my best friend EVERY SINGLE DAY and she had NO idea. I won't even get into the absolute shame involved. Even if I hadn't been certain he would've killed me, the shame alone is enough to be quiet.

It doesn't take much googling to find reliable statistics on child abuse.

At any rate, in answering the original question, my husband is not comfortable with our daughters seeing him nude. However, I do encourage him not to get upset if they happen to walk in on him. I understand why he's uncomfortable, but I don't want them to think there's something dirty or shameful about his body, or feel bad about accidentally catching a glimpse.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
Did it ever occur to you that people who are abused live in total fear? I was physically, sexually, and emotionally abused by my father from birth, and none of my friends knew. Why on earth would I go blabbing it when I knew the man was capable of killing me and he had TOLD ME he would kill me if I told? For six years I was with my best friend EVERY SINGLE DAY and she had NO idea. I won't even get into the absolute shame involved. Even if I hadn't been certain he would've killed me, the shame alone is enough to be quiet.

What makes you think you have to tell? I have a friend who was sexually abused. She told me when she was 32. I knew when she was 13. She didn't know that I knew, though - I always believed she'd tell me if and when she was ready to do so.

Quote:

It doesn't take much googling to find reliable statistics on child abuse.
I don't agree. I don't think there _are_ reliable statistics on child abuse. However, I have to say that 67% before age 12 sounds awfully high to me. When I was a teenager and almost all of my female friends (say 90%) had been sexually abused, I still would have thought that 67% sounded high. We can debate it all we want - we're never going to know who's right.


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## KayasMama04 (Feb 4, 2006)

I don't like nakedness..dd will not bath with dh, see him naked etc...it just isn't right to me. I don't like dd seeing me naked but it could be because she tries and touches me and that freaks me out. There is no reason she needs to see her dad naked.


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## SwissMama (Sep 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kleine Hexe* 
I keep waiting for the culture in the US to leave it's Puritan influence behind. Sigh. Hasn't happened yet.

It's all cultural. There are societies where everyone walks around almost completely naked. I don't think there are rampant abuse cases happening there.

Somebody had to say it, ITA.

My DH still sees his parents naked, and he's 33.









We also go to the beach in Holland in the summers, and there's many a naked man walking around - nobody blinks an eye. If seeing nudity at a young age increases the chances of being sexually abused, then I guess Europe has quite the impending epidemic. (tongue in cheek)


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## sarahmck (Feb 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
This is interesting to me. Either people were sexually abused and so were many of their friends and aquaintances, or else they were not abused and neither were any of their friends or aquaintances.

My comment isn't quite topical, but your comment above made me think of something that I've considered in the past.

Once we were in high school, ALL of my brother's friends had divorced parents. ALL of my friends had married parents. Our parents are still married. I always wondered about that difference between mine and my brother's groups of friends. It seemed impossible that it could be a coincidence. I think that people gravitate towards certain personality characteristics. Perhaps there is something that children of divorced parents have in common that my brother was drawn to? Perhaps I, as a boring homebody, was drawn to kids whose home lives were "intact?" (Please don't read this as a blanket statement about the quality of the home life of divorced households. I'm just writing simply here for the sake of brevity and hope you get my point.)

I wonder if it's possible that the difference that blessed points out above could be that abused kids are drawn to personality characteristics that they see in other abused kids?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarahmck* 
My comment isn't quite topical, but your comment above made me think of something that I've considered in the past.

Once we were in high school, ALL of my brother's friends had divorced parents. ALL of my friends had married parents. Our parents are still married. I always wondered about that difference between mine and my brother's groups of friends. It seemed impossible that it could be a coincidence. I think that people gravitate towards certain personality characteristics. Perhaps there is something that children of divorced parents have in common that my brother was drawn to? Perhaps I, as a boring homebody, was drawn to kids whose home lives were "intact?" (Please don't read this as a blanket statement about the quality of the home life of divorced households. I'm just writing simply here for the sake of brevity and hope you get my point.)

I wonder if it's possible that the difference that blessed points out above could be that abused kids are drawn to personality characteristics that they see in other abused kids?

I've always believed this. My group of friends when I was in high school consisted, with _one_ exception, of people who had at least one parent with a drinking problem. This was a group of about 25-30 kids - and everyone of us had a parent with alcoholism. It wouldn't be hard to conclude from that sampling that 95%+ of people come from an alcoholic home, but I never thought that was the case. I really think that we're drawn, particularly when we're young, to people who come from a reality that reflects our own. People who hadn't been sexually abused, and people who lived in homes without drunkenness and without fighting, simply didn't "click" with my world view.


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *orangefoot* 
I don't want my sons getting all their perceptions of women's bodies from advertising.

I am getting in on this topic a bit late but this is totally worth repeating. Thank you orangefoot.


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

Okay, I'll share something a bit personal.

When I was about two or three, my brother and I were taking pictures of each other naked with the camera. When my parents' developed the film they were hysterical. They actually called over the police and a social worker to talk to us about how that was not appropriate. How bodies are private. It was so shaming and traumatizing to us.

Shortly thereafter, I began to be sexually molested by an older boy-- a trusted and close relative-- which continues for the next 4+ years. I was embarrassed to tell my parents because of the previous incident and because of the way nudity and sexuality were dealt with in my home. Finally telling them was one of the scariest things I have ever done in my whole life, I can't express it. My cheeks are flushing now remembering this because the shame is still there to some degree.

I agree with the statement that it is important to raise children with healthy boundaries. However, boundaries do not need to be some arbitrary rule, but they need to based on what feels right and comfortable. If you teach a child to obey arbitrary (arbitrary here means not based on their actual comfort level) rules about privacy, then they are just learning to allow someone else to control their bodies. If you teach them to take control of their bodies and to have respect for their own bodies and others, than it's not about bending to arbitrary rules, but learning what feels right and wrong to them.

The difference between children who have been raised in these two different ways, is one may feel scared or shamed into obeying an adult even if it makes her feel violated, while the other will be guided by her own sense of discomfort and feel empowered to say "no!".


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kleine Hexe* 
I keep waiting for the culture in the US to leave it's Puritan influence behind. Sigh. Hasn't happened yet.

It's all cultural. There are societies where everyone walks around almost completely naked. I don't think there are rampant abuse cases happening there.

ITA. Nudity doesn't cause sexual abuse of children. Pedophilia does.


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