# Philosophical Discussion - Do our children really need our feedback?



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

This is sort of a spin-off from some recent threads that talk about parent feedback for actions and behavior. 

I will admit some bias in that I was raised in an unconditional home with very little feedback (either positive or negative) for my actions. There was some hardship to that -- and my siblings and I often joke about it, but I think there was significant benefit as well. 

The focus on attachment, connection, and a loving relationship is a good one, IMO, but I don't think that requires us to communicate verbally to our children how we feel about what they do or how they behave. 

I'm a lover of Alfie Kohn and think his words on praise are often over simplified, perhaps. Or maybe his ideas didn't go as deep as I remember. 

The problems I see with feedback (even positive feedback) are many. 

For one, I feel like it can take our children out of the moment of joy for what they are engaged in. Parents and children working together (or children working happily alone) don't need to be interrupted by praise. 

I also feel like it puts into words things that just don't need to be communicated that way. When we are enjoying our children's company or appreciative of help, that is conveyed better without words oftentimes. 

Then is the intrinsic/extrinsic thing - (and AK does this well, IMO). When a child is playing alone or helps out with a chore or eats their dinner. That is the reward. It's pure and simple and adding to that, IMO, can have the effect of diminishing that. It's the parent saying, "The intrinsic value is not enough." 

To be clear, there are times when it feels totally natural to give feedback. I am talking about the type of feedback that is motivated by driving behavior. 

The last problem is that. It isn't 100% authentic if we are doing it to influence behavior, is it? 

What are your thoughts on this?


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

I do avoid giving unnecessary feedback. You are right, it takes them out of the moment and it's nice when something is it's own motivator-- positive and negative. Now and then I I feel like I don't want to wait. Something motivates me to say something.

Occasionally, though--usually when they've been working so hard to change something-- I do make a point to say something in order to influence behavior and reinforce my approval in case it wasn't obvious, even when the joy isn't there. It's a manufactured statement, but the moment is well chosen. I get my own reward when I see that smile sneak onto their faces. Now and then... now and then....

I think my girls do appreciate feedback. They also appreciate the chance to discover stuff for themselves instead of having me give a running commentary. Do they need feedback? It sounds like you would have appreciated a little of it now and then growing up. So, yeah, some feedback I believe is necessary. But if it is necessary, they don't need much. The difficulty is when and for what.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, SS!



SweetSilver said:


> I do avoid giving unnecessary feedback. You are right, it takes them out of the moment and it's nice when something is it's own motivator-- positive and negative.


I agree (obviously!). I've been observing how and when I give feedback for the past few days.

I have noticed that with my 3 year old I just don't really give feedback. An example was yesterday. I walked in on her pouring juice (a special treat) from the jug into her cup. She is learning to pour and is not quite there yet so I just bit my tongue to avoid the negativity of a comment like, "Be careful." I watched as she did an "ok" job. I could have given her both positive and negative feedback considering she got most of the juice in the cup (a challenge for her) but also spilled some. Instead I just handed her a napkin to clean the spill and we went on our day.

With my 12 year old I think I may need to be on special watch to be sure I'm not giving negative feedback. She and I share a bunch of chores so it's easy enough to comment on things that she could do better (and she can comment on me) but I'd rather not.

I feel like the older members in our family should live most of our days recognizing that we're all doing our best and save negative feedback for when we've really thought something through that we feel needs improvement. This is something DH and I can work on too.



SweetSilver said:


> Occasionally, though--usually when they've been working so hard to change something-- I do make a point to say something in order to influence behavior and reinforce my approval in case it wasn't obvious, even when the joy isn't there. It's a manufactured statement, but the moment is well chosen. I get my own reward when I see that smile sneak onto their faces. Now and then... now and then....


Agreed again. Often with my 12 year old I do notice that I try to give feedback separate from the event -- so it doesn't feel like a tit-for-tat, if that makes sense.

Maybe that is just a do unto others thing. I know I would prefer a compliment or expression of gratitude away from what I give. That feels more like a lot of thought has gone into it.



SweetSilver said:


> It sounds like you would have appreciated a little of it now and then growing up. So, yeah, some feedback I believe is necessary. But if it is necessary, they don't need much. The difficulty is when and for what.


I don't remember having problems with a lack of feedback for behavior issues. I can specifically remember a time when I was a teen and came home super late. I got no feedback -- and none was needed. I could tell my parents were waiting up for me, were worried, and were a little embarrassed because they had friends over who I think were also worried. That was enough - and it should be! And, I don't think at the age I was that I should have been praised (the alternative) for being able to get home no time, yk?

Where the feedback thing was kind of a challenge was on personal choice stuff. I am still figuring this out for my 12 year old. I am way more open and opinionated about the choices she makes than my parents were with me. But, I'm still searching for that balance. I find that I like to ask first before giving my opinion - that way I know that it was what my DC was looking for from me in the conversation.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I also want to say that I do distinguish between gratitude and feedback and maybe some people don't. I do think they are related because they are probably internalized in a similar way but I feel like expressing gratitude is deeper in a way than giving positive feedback. Not sure how rational this is though...


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

IdentityCrisisMama said:


> Where the feedback thing was kind of a challenge was on personal choice stuff. I am still figuring this out for my 12 year old. I am way more open and opinionated about the choices she makes than my parents were with me. But, I'm still searching for that balance. I find that I like to ask first before giving my opinion - that way I know that it was what my DC was looking for from me in the conversation.


My mother left me to figure things out on my own, or if she felt like saying something it was a criticism not taken well. Neither take was much welcome. I think I had a better relationship with my mother than my sisters did, but her commentary was always brimming with judgement and expectation. (Paranoid? Maybe, but....)

I think I have a closer relationship with my girls, and giving an opinion winds up being that--just an opinion, not a judgment, not an expectation. If we don't involve ourselves in our children's lives and then suddenly comment on something, it's not going to be taken as part of the natural flow of the day, the natural give-and-take that comes with a sound relationship. It is then out of place. Though, granted, that can have a huge positive impact with the right comment at the right time, but mostly (just speaking from my own experience) it is unfamiliar and kinda strange and therefore often unwelcome and disruptive.

My mom and I never got past that awful adolescent stage, so take my views with big, honkin' chunk of salt!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

One of the things I've observed in these past few days is that (for me) I feel a little like "feedback" can really interrupt natural conversation. This is especially true of my toddler who is just so free and unpredictable with what she chooses to talk about that interjecting with feedback wouldn't be a good choice. 

With my 12 year old, I sort of feel the same, though she is more specific about what she wants to talk about. But, really, more of what she seems to need is help with problem solving over my opinion. 

I think about my own DH, who tends towards the critical, and feel like the solution for him isn't to add some compliments in with the negative feedback... but to re-think the negative.


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## BushMama83 (Apr 19, 2012)

Since reading Alfie Kohn several months ago, I don't give much praise or positive feedback, for the reasons already discussed here.

But what about negative feedback? IdentityCrisisMama, you mentioned "be careful". I notice I say this a lot, and am trying to be concious of it/not say it so much. But what about "when you bite your brother it really hurts him" type feedback (because I feel like I say this or similar things constantly, to no effect). Can we just let actions pass without feedback, too? It's obvious that the action causes negative reactions, like crying, or like mama moving the baby away so "play" is interrupted. I guess I personally am struggling with feeling like I must "do" something, like DS will never get it if I'm not constantly reminding. What are your thoughts there?


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

BushMama83 said:


> *Can we just let actions pass without feedback, too?* It's obvious that the action causes negative reactions, like crying, or like mama moving the baby away so "play" is interrupted. I guess I personally am struggling with feeling like I must "do" something, like DS will never get it if I'm not constantly reminding. What are your thoughts there?


Sometimes we can. But the line is crossed when someone else's well being is involved. I feel like I need to advocate for my younger daughter and other kids in these instances. When my girls were younger, that meant biting. Now growing up, it can mean correcting bullyish behavior.

Last year at our camp ground, a lot of the camp kids came to play at our camp and were having a lot of fun until I noticed that one boy was actually being picked on physically. I said, "Hey, we have a rule about rough play. Every body needs to be having fun or it has to stop. He's not having fun." "But.. (insert excuse here)." "If you can't follow our rules, you are not allowed to play at our campsite."

What I did and didn't do: I didn't get involved in their disagreement specifically. Sometimes I think that can be called for, but it's tricky, and I prefer just to leave their business as their business (especially since I would never see these kids again). However, I am very strict about the "everybody on board" rough play rule. I felt like I advocated for this kid without descending into the murky world of kid logic. They played well for a while and went back to their respective camps. Right after, I had to talk to my girls about the boy and that they needed to advocate for this boy if something comes up, not join in. They knew it wasn't right. (Little Lord of the Flies there!)

So, for little kids hitting and biting, the words will sink in but actions might be better. The victim needs to be advocated for if they are having difficulty doing it themselves. It will take years for the lessons to sink in far enough that What Mama Said is remembered before the fist flies. And it's hard to do that, for adults as well. It can take thousands of repetitions for it to sink in.

I've actually allowed certain behaviors that I didn't like before. Sticking out the tongue is now an acceptable comeback. It took me a while before I could let go of my feelings about the rudeness of it, but on analyzing it, I realized that it can convey a message (I'm angry and this is what I think of you) without name calling or hitting and is easy for kids who can't quite muster the right words. So, stick it out, blow a raspberry, that's fine.

I think that when we find a philosophy we like, changing our old habits takes some practice, and it can feel fake and scripted. However, sometimes that feeling is because we genuinely should be following our gut feeling. You are a part of their life. You share a house. There will be interruptions! Your child's flow is not something Sacred Never to Be Altered in a Parental Manner. Sometimes they *welcome* the interruption (and feedback, since that's what we are talking about here). Sometimes they go off to play because they don't have someone's attention and that can be interpreted as not wanting to step in when in fact it's a coping mechanism (this was my childhood! I know this!)


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

That was a great post from SS and I totally agree with all of what she said. I will come back later if I have some more ideas but one of the things I am fond of saying for young kids is, "I will not let you hit/shove/whatever another person." I think kids know it isn't nice. They know it hurts. When I have said "I will not let you hit," and followed that with physically moving the child or otherwise making sure no one gets hurt, I have found that to be a much more powerful (and comforting!) and consistent! message.


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## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

I do offer feedback - both positive and negative. I think with some kids you have to. My oldest and youngest do not seem to need much feedback - but my middle had a rough time treating people respectfully in the early teen years. I did (repeatedly) offer feedback as she was emotionally hurting people - me, but also her younger sister. As I did not want to only offer negative feedback, I made a conscious effort to also offer postive feedback (obviously not at the same time as the negative feedback - that would have been confusing). It was good for her, but it was also good for me to be reminded of her good qualities during those tricky years.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

kathymuggle said:


> I do offer feedback - both positive and negative. I think with some kids you have to. My oldest and youngest do not seem to need much feedback - but my middle had a rough time treating people respectfully in the early teen years. I did (repeatedly) offer feedback as she was emotionally hurting people - me, but also her younger sister. As I did not want to only offer negative feedback, I made a conscious effort to also offer postive feedback (obviously not at the same time as the negative feedback - that would have been confusing). It was good for her, but it was also good for me to be reminded of her good qualities during those tricky years.


I think Kathy's point is a good one. Several of the pro-praise posts here lately talk about the ratio of negative to positive feedback. I can totally see a scenario where a child is in great need for correction and, therefore, in great need also of positive feedback as a balance.


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## BushMama83 (Apr 19, 2012)

SweetSilver, thanks for your response! You make some great points. I think you're right that actions might be better. Because it seems to take forever for the words to sink in!

Kathy, you're so right about balancing with positive feedback, and how it can sometimes serve to remind us of our child's sweeter side!


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

I think there are a lot of ways to give positive feedback, both immediately and later. When my sons were little, I used positive feedback to reinforce appropriate behavior - for example, "I noticed you put your trains away before taking out Legos. Thank you!" Often is was an observation on my part - no opinion, just a fact. "I see you put your clothes away," or "I saw you put on your bike helmet", or "there are a lot of toys on the floor."

Many of those types of comments were in the form of appreciation. I am more likely to say "Thanks for putting the dishes away" than "You did a good job on the dishes."

Obviously age is an issue - young children need feedback sooner. I still give my kids feedback - and they're in college. "You are getting a lot better at time management", or "I can tell you've lost weight." But it is often followed by a question or two: "What have you been doing to keep track of assignments?" or "How did you go about the weight loss?" [this was my son, who was about 30 pounds overweight. Last semester he started working out once or twice a week, and made conscious changes to his eating habits - portion control and limiting snacks. It was a good thing, done in a healthy way.]

My kids don't ever seem to get tired of hearing that I'm proud of them - at least they haven't complained about it yet!


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

nd_deadhead said:


> My kids don't ever seem to get tired of hearing that I'm proud of them - at least they haven't complained about it yet!


My kids like to have their good work acknowledged.  I don't need to gush, but it's usually enough to simply state "You know, I've noticed how hard you've been trying to ________". And no, they don't seem to get tired of it.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

My DC does not seem to need or want me to acknowledge what I think is good about her. :shrug There are many, many things that I think are totally awesome about her but it feels important for me to keep that off her back. There are times that she has a goal that she will share with me and I will support her in her goal but I don't think my feedback is an important (or helpful) part of the process. 

Now, gratitude, I do express to my kids when I appreciate their help. This is not me putting my values on their behavior. I.e. it is not me saying "this is a good thing you are doing" but, rather, I am telling them in an objective way that their help is something that I appreciate. 

Again, I think this is different from giving feedback (especially feedback that is motivated by the desire to enforce behavior).


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think feedback is important in a relationship, it is how I show I care and know that my family cares for me. I can't imagine a fulfilling relationship happening without it. My dd seems to like my feedback, she seeks it sometimes and I seek hers sometimes, we both seek my parent's feedback too. I don't want to sound snarky, but I really find it hard to understand how a family would function without this closeness, it's just so different from anything I've ever experienced. 

I think giving positive feedback to shape behavior is fine as long as it isn't done as a backhanded compliment. Kids get so much negative feedback, through words but also through reading our body language, and I think that is much more damaging than going out of your way to reinforce a behavior you want to keep seeing in a positive way.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

One_Girl said:


> I don't want to sound snarky, but I really find it hard to understand how a family would function without this closeness, it's just so different from anything I've ever experienced.


No, that's fine -- that's the value of a philosophical discussion, IMO.

I don't think that our family or I look very different from anyone else. I can say that I think it probably functions fine because in a lack of feedback there is also a lack of negative feedback. It also functions in a family where the members know each other. Because I was raised this way I know that it can feel good (for the most part). There is this feeling of unconditionality. For instance, I do know my parents quite well so I know the sorts I things (even now) that I could do that they would like more than other things. They are human and think some things are more interesting than other things. Do I need them to tell me that? I don't think so.

My DC is getting grades for the first time at 12 years old. I have mixed feelings about grades but do think that it's probably for the best that she cares if her marks are ok. I tell her what grades are for and how they can influence her future. I tell her that I have misgivings about grades in the first place. She does not need me to tell her that "good grades" are something I would like for her. She had a goal this year of getting all A's. She never achieved that goal. Rather than praise her I participated in both her joy at the A's she did get and her frustration over the other grades she was less proud of.

Some of this could also be "action over words". There is probably nothing I could say to my DC that reinforces my values more than the things that I do that reinforce my values.

I LOVE that DC keeps her room clean. I don't really talk to her about that - she knows this. I don't want to put any pressure on her to be "better" at it than she already is. She knows I think it's cool and impressive. I show her that it's a trait that I think is good for her because I give her space and time to clean, I keep her toddler sibling out of her room, I am always respectful about how I put things in there (laundry and stuff). I giver her full autonomy on her space.

ALL of that said, I did just seek feedback for a piece of artwork I finished. It was professional in nature and I was very happy to get a response. This is where I think growing up in this way was a little difficult and it was something I will not repeat for my own kids. Where feedback is requested, I think it is often appropriate.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I should also probably share that I have some odd misgivings about the very act of trying to enforce my own values.  I think it's natural that this would happen and it's not like I have a goal to give my child this entirely neutral space to grow...but I would say that I think there is a big ethical question in trying to pass my own values onto my child. That doesn't feel like the goal. The goal, to me, is to give her what she needs to develop her own value system.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

My mother used to compliment me. "You are looking nice today!" (Teenager translation: "Now that's how you should dress, not all sulky and baggy with your hair all over the place and no make up. You finally look like a young lady, not a hooligan.")


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I remember misinterpreting a lot of what my mother said and picking fights with her as a teen but I appreciate that she built me up when I felt down. I went through a serious trauma as a teen and there were several times when I chose not to commit suicide because of her constant support and obvious love. She made it so clear with her words that I was valued and her belief in me is what I thought of in dark times, not the misinterpretation.

Kids sometimes don't know the things we think they just know. I think not giving feedback unless asked for it runs the risk of being interpreted by a child as not caring, especially as they get to the developmental stage where they become more interested in social input from others. Combining no feedback unless it's solicited with not teaching values sounds similar to neglect, especially if taken to an extreme and adhered to rigidly.

As for passing on values, I believe it is very important to pass on my values to my child while also teaching her to form her own opinions. Most values are passed on through modeling but I am fine with giving my dd other perspectives to think about. I don't want her getting her values from just her natural inclinations or her friends.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

One_Girl said:


> Kids sometimes don't know the things we think they just know. I think not giving feedback unless asked for it runs the risk of being interpreted by a child as not caring, *especially as they get to the developmental stage where they become more interested in social input from others*. Combining no feedback unless it's solicited with not teaching values sounds similar to neglect, especially if taken to an extreme and adhered to rigidly.


:twothumbs

If feedback is in low supply but desired, kids might end up seeking it in others, even without being aware of it. I am sure this had something to do with the intensity of my early romances. It's not necessarily a bad thing, though. I don't mean to say it's always bad for kids to seek fulfillment in platonic and romantic friendships and mentors.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

One_Girl said:


> Combining no feedback unless it's solicited with not teaching values sounds similar to neglect, especially if taken to an extreme and adhered to rigidly.


I think you would have to see it in practice.

I think the idea of "no feedback" is interpreted as "no communication" but it shouldn't be. Where someone who was fond of feedback may give a compliment or observation I may choose instead to ask my DC how she feels about something. How my DC feels if the impetus for discussion rather than starting a conversation with my opinion.

I think a lot of this comes down to how we were raised and how we interpreted feedback (or a lack of feedback). Because I didn't have a whole lot and have a generally positive outlook on that, I tend to feel that feedback pales in comparison to other things (like support to meet our own goals, conversation, being there, positive expectations, empathy, unconditional love). I also tend to focus on the times when I interact with my kids where I feel feedback would get in the way of more important things. In the case of my kids, it seems like a good chunk of the times.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Giving kids feedback doesn't mean a parent starts all conversations with their input or gives input in every conversation and it definitely doesn't mean they don't support their children in setting and meeting their goals, love them unconditionally, show empathy, etc... It just means they give their input and encouragement in addition to those things. No parenting style has the market on unconditional love and support there is not only one way to raise children to feel loved unconditionally. Some people thrive on the constant open communication and flow of discussion with the back and forth of opinons that are dear to me and my family and others thrive on different kinds of conversation. I think both ways are fine as long as they aren't taken to extremes and both have an emotional toll when taken to an extreme.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Yes, I agree. My feelings that feedback is not necessary and my descriptions of the ways that feedback seems to interfere with other things between me and my kids should not be interpreted as me thinking that feedback can't be a positive element for other relationships. 

It seems to me that the give-in is that kids should have a lot of positive feedback. 

But, just as it is important to caution someone like me who doesn't give feedback that perhaps we do not know for sure that our children are't craving it (and it is certainly something I will consider and perhaps even talk to my older DC about), I think it is also fair enough to say that maybe kids who are receiving a lot of feedback may not be conscious or able to express that they don't especially appreciate that form of communication.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I should also bring this back to the OP and mention that I am primarily talking about feedback where part of the goal (or hoped for bonus) is that our feedback will influence behavior.


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

Do you feel that parents should completely 100% avoid having that goal -- to influence behavior?

If not, what do you suggest that is effective to influence behavior that is not extrinsic, and that does not "take them out of the moment", and that is 100% authentic? Something effective that meets all the criteria that you laid out in the OP.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

tadamsmar said:


> Do you feel that parents should completely 100% avoid having that goal -- to influence behavior?
> 
> If not, what do you suggest that is effective to influence behavior that is not extrinsic, and that does not "take them out of the moment", and that is 100% authentic? Something effective that meets all the criteria that you laid out in the OP.


As unschoolers, we ask that question a lot in regards to education. In this instance "influencing behavior" means something specific: reaching an academic goal. And there are various experiences with that. Some parents and kids are completely comfortable with the parents leaving things around the house for them to be picked up by the child. Others find this behavior "manipulative". That's just one example.

But the main idea is that children will pick up on the basics as they are, and because they are, lived in their lives.

I can have a philosophical conversation with my husband, and explore all kinds of issues. Or I could have almost the same conversation with the intent not only of influencing behavior but _reaching the same conclusion_, and it would be nothing like the expansive, exploratory conversation I had earlier.

My kids and I have the same kinds of exploratory conversation. I live my life as much "do as I do" as I can.

But I totally agree with ICM that before offering feedback, look and consider what's happening *right now*. When we parents focus on "I'm going to give feedback now" it can be a bit of tunnel vision thinking "This is what's most important right now". Which totally ignores he wonderful things that are happening, and the connection that can happen through that.

But if you don't offer it now, they *might never learn it*!!!! If it's transparent enough, they will. And you just might learn a lot of other, more important things, by *being* with your kid. And you might just find yourself talking about it naturally without any expectation, and there you are. A genuine place.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

tadamsmar said:


> Do you feel that parents should completely 100% avoid having that goal -- to influence behavior?
> 
> If not, what do you suggest that is effective to influence behavior that is not extrinsic, and that does not "take them out of the moment", and that is 100% authentic? Something effective that meets all the criteria that you laid out in the OP.


I was thinking about this in the context of One Girl's thoughts on the subject. I tend to be pretty direct and informative when it comes to influencing behavior.

I think we absolutely do influence behavior. I would say that actions speak way louder than words and that sometimes words serve a counter productive purpose.

I would also say that in general praise and criticism have less value than information.

I gave a few examples of simple ways that actions can reinforce behavior or where I thought feedback was not necessary. I'd be interested to hear some examples of where feedback felt necessary where other types of discussion and communication aren't sufficient. One Girl, I know you gave the example of overcoming trauma. That makes sense to me. But what about the day-to-day with our kids?

As far as an authentic way to help kids - I would say it is as simple as handing them a towel to clean up a mess. Tadamsmar, your recent posts and links are part of what got me thinking of this. If you can provide an example of a behavior that you feel is best influenced through feedback we can ponder the ways feedback and other ways of addressing the behavior could work. It would be fun!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

SweetSilver said:


> But the main idea is that children will pick up on the basics as they are, and because they are, lived in their lives.


Yep!



SweetSilver said:


> But I totally agree with ICM that before offering feedback, look and consider what's happening *right now*. When we parents focus on "I'm going to give feedback now" it can be a bit of tunnel vision thinking "This is what's most important right now". Which totally ignores he wonderful things that are happening, and the connection that can happen through that.


Yes! I think a lot of times we think of things as consequence free so long as they are well intended. Not so. I know we talked up thread a little about the "what-ifs" of a kid who doesn't get much feedback. I get that. But what of the kids who get a lot? I can totally imagine a child who gets a lot of satisfaction from positive feedback eventually being motivated by that. When we think of play, creativity, art, expression - being motivated by positive feedback can have a negative, for sure.

I'm NOT saying that parents watching closely and who decide that feedback is valuable to their kids are creating praise junkies - I'm really not. But it's something to consider - especially if were talking about hypothetical consequences of giving or not giving feedback.



SweetSilver said:


> But if you don't offer it now, they *might never learn it*!!!! If it's transparent enough, they will. And you just might learn a lot of other, more important things, by *being* with your kid. And you might just find yourself talking about it naturally without any expectation, and there you are. A genuine place.


Yep!


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

IdentityCrisisMama said:


> As far as an authentic way to help kids - I would say it is as simple as handing them a towel to clean up a mess. Tadamsmar, your recent posts and links are part of what got me thinking of this. If you can provide an example of a behavior that you feel is best influenced through feedback we can ponder the ways feedback and other ways of addressing the behavior could work. It would be fun!


I post in response to parents with conduct problems, so it's mostly specific to that. I don't think I have ever directly advocated praise here, I typically use the term "positive attention" which is meant to be much broader. I explicitly say to avoid generic praise like "Good job". I think praise is never necessary, but I do point to sources that advocate praise because I don't know of better source.

I think the typical mistake that parents make with young kids is to give lots of attention to unwanted behavior which reinforces the very behavior that they do not want. But this seems to me to be a natural, authentic thing for parents to do, since it seems that a large number of parents do it and I don't think they learned to do it from reading a book.

On the other hand, I am not generally anti-praise, except I am against generic praise because it is known to be ineffective, praising a kid's genes as in "You are so smart!" because there is recent evidence that it is or can be very counter-productive, and constant praise (on constant reinforcement of any sort) because it is known to be ineffective in the long run.

My perspective is heavily influenced by scientific evaluations of parenting methods, like for instance this one:

http://www.cebc4cw.org/topic/parent-training/


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Urgh... I lost my post. 

I was saying that I can think of several reasons why a parent would give negative attention: 

*Limited support for more effective discipline strategies
*Cultural expectations for behavior that is not developmental
*Lifestyle choices that are not appropriate for childhood (ie. spending hours in front of the TV and then being expected to sit still for dinner with grandma) 

I think it better to address the reasons for why parents are limited to addressing unwanted behavior than it is to add positive attention on top. 

I am unfamiliar with a lot of the training methods you posted (have you taken many of those). I have taken one that is ranked a level 3 on the list you linked. It was quite good and as I recall free from a whole lot of feedback. In fact, it was the course where I learned the value of asking before giving an opinion. :love


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

IdentityCrisisMama said:


> I was saying that I can think of several reasons why a parent would give negative attention:
> 
> *Limited support for more effective discipline strategies
> *Cultural expectations for behavior that is not developmental
> ...


Concerning negative attention and other counter-productive actions, in responding to posts I have read the posts and identified anything counter-productive that they say they are doing and addressed those specific actions. I don't just say layer positive attention on top. I tell them to redirect their attention, if the redirect then that requires them to stop the negative attention.

I can see it might be better to address the big picture in some cases, but that's a tall order. Sometimes learning few skills and making a few adjustments can go a long ways, I think.

But, if you make progress on that other track, I will be all eyes to see what we learn.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I do agree that adding positive attention (praise, even) is probably a pretty quick fix for a kid who responds well to praise. Especially a child who experiences a lot of criticism. Even when we decide that a quick fix or patch is a good idea for a bigger problem, I would say it's always good to address the big picture. In fact, I would say that not addressing the big picture is another contributing factor to why parents may resort to attending to unwanted behavior - it's a symptom fix, not a problem fix.


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

IdentityCrisisMama said:


> I am unfamiliar with a lot of the training methods you posted (have you taken many of those). I have taken one that is ranked a level 3 on the list you linked. It was quite good and as I recall free from a whole lot of feedback. In fact, it was the course where I learned the value of asking before giving an opinion. :love


I have not taken any of those courses. There are two at level 1. I have read the primary text for "Incredible Years". The course material for the Oregon Model is hard to find, but parenting books by the head of the Yale Conduct Clinic are a version of the Oregon Model.

I had some on-the-job training while working at a day care and the methods worked well. Took me a while to figure out where the methods came from. 300 parenting books are published every year and maybe 1 in 1000 focus on the methods at the top of that California evaluation.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I took PET (level 3). It was good. I have often considered going through the training to become an instructor. One of the very first things we were taught was that silence could solve 90% of communication problems between parents and children. The idea is that parents talk too much and don't listen nearly enough.


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

IdentityCrisisMama said:


> I do agree that adding positive attention (praise, even) is probably a pretty quick fix for a kid who responds well to praise. Especially a child who experiences a lot of criticism. Even when we decide that a quick fix or patch is a good idea for a bigger problem, I would say it's always good to address the big picture. In fact, I would say that not addressing the big picture is another contributing factor to why parents may resort to attending to unwanted behavior - it's a symptom fix, not a problem fix.


Parent Effectiveness Training does not address causes or the big picture either. It's just a bunch of techniques.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

tadamsmar said:


> Parent Effectiveness Training does not address causes or the big picture either. It's just a bunch of techniques.


Where did you hear this? It has been a while since I read the book but the workshop does address big picture issues - almost entirely.


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

IdentityCrisisMama said:


> I took PET (level 3). It was good. I have often considered going through the training to become an instructor. One of the very first things we were taught was that silence could solve 90% of communication problems between parents and children. The idea is that parents talk too much and don't listen nearly enough.


I agree with that. "How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk" is one of my favorite books and we made much practical use of it.


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

IdentityCrisisMama said:


> Where did you hear this? It has been a while since I read the book but the workshop does address big picture issues - almost entirely.


I have read the book. Maybe we mean something different by big picture issues. I was thinking about parents who need psychological help for themselves. PET does have a big picture philosophy.


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

Here's a pictorial outline of Incredible Years:










To get a bigger image, click on this link:

http://r2lp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/pyramid-in-color.jpg

The base level is pretty much PET. But everything above that is against the PET philosophy, I think.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I like that...

I would definitely have a different pyramid. In our house tier two and three would be flipped (although consistency and obedience would be removed). I like the visual of how small consequences is in comparison to the bottom. They even include logical, which is good. I think they should remove the "natural" though as it does not make sense there, IMO. In my opinion "natural consequences" belongs on the very bottom row. 

You are right that it does look different from PET but it looks fine and is probably a pretty great start to parents who are not all that attentive to the bottom of the pyramid. 

The question I would ask (related to this thread) is this. DOES praise raise social skills, thinking skills, and motivation? Because, for my kids, I do not think it does.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

For the day to day things I have clear rules and expectations and I did teach them to my child along with the reasons I had them. I do a lot of modelling what I want to see dd do eventually but there was also a point when I got tired of waiting on her to start doing simple things and found myself holding too much in and snapping. I find it is better for dd and for our relationship to give feedback in the moment and reinforce expectations than it was to just wait and hope she picked it up through modeling. Modeling is awesome for some things but I find it quicker and easier on both of us to also give dd feedback about the behavior and actions I want to see and the ones I never want to see again.

How to talk so kids will listen... is a great book for getting ideas for giving feedback gently but it is still feedback even if the approach and solutions are more focused on the children coming up with solutions. Conversations were you express your feelings or a desire to see a change are still feedback for most kids because they care about how their parents feel and will come up with ideas or a plan for changing their behavior after a conversation. 

As for praise, I really don't feel strongly one way or another about it. I find conversation works the best when a change needs to happen but I've also found some things so annoying I was willing to try praise and a reward scheme.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I would also add "age appropriate expectations" on the way bottom! Then I would encourage parents to work their way up from the bottom. Meaning we deal with those "big picture" problems (like empathy, communication, problem solving) before moving up the pyramid to other behavior modification techniques.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

One_Girl said:


> For the day to day things I have clear rules and expectations and I did teach them to my child along with the reasons I had them. I do a lot of modelling what I want to see dd do eventually but there was also a point when I got tired of waiting on her to start doing simple things and found myself holding too much in and snapping. I find it is better for dd and for our relationship to give feedback in the moment and reinforce expectations than it was to just wait and hope she picked it up through modeling. Modeling is awesome for some things but I find it quicker and easier on both of us to also give dd feedback about the behavior and actions I want to see and the ones I never want to see


Oh, I feel you! For me, I tend to give pretty direct instruction over what I consider "feedback". More to that...



One_Girl said:


> How to talk so kids will listen... is a great book for getting ideas for giving feedback gently but it is still feedback even if the approach and solutions are more focused on the children coming up with solutions. Conversations were you express your feelings or a desire to see a change are still feedback for most kids because they care about how their parents feel.


I did not like HTTSKWL. It's been forever since I read it but I remember it really not resonating with me. If it was feedback based, that makes sense.



One_Girl said:


> Conversations were you express your feelings or a desire to see a change are still feedback for most kids because they care about how their parents feel.


I have two things to respond to about this last statement. First, I want to acknowledge that my kids get all sorts of feedback from me. It doesn't need to come in specifically directed comments about their behavior. They can tell when I am calmly supportive of a challenge or sharing in their joy. They can also tell when I'm exasperated - even if I am trying my best to remain supportive. I do try to not be as invested in their own work as perhaps another parent. I'd rather respond to how they feel about it than share my opinions. And that's where I say I don't like to give feedback.

Now, I also give feedback in the form of saying something like, "I do not want you to bring your phone to the party." I mean, that is feedback, I suppose, but it's not what I am talking about.


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

IdentityCrisisMama said:


> The question I would ask (related to this thread) is this. DOES praise raise social skills, thinking skills, and motivation? Because, for my kids, I do not think it does.


Funny, when I was getting ready to post that image, I was looking it over with critical eye (kind of thinking in terms of _your_ critical eye when you saw it) and I was thinking that none of those methods actually raise social skills or thinking skills per se.

Praise and other social reinforcers can raise motivation. But, used incorrectly, then can undermine motivation. Praising genetic endowments instead of effort can undermine motivation. Constant praise can make motivation end when the parent is no longer around to praise, so you need to fade it to occasional reminders that you admire the kid's efforts, character, etc. And there is some evidence that praise can undermine intrinsic motivation when intrinsic motivation is high, and that praise can signal "you have made it, no need for further progress".


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

IdentityCrisisMama said:


> I like that...
> I like the visual of how small consequences is in comparison to the bottom. They even include logical, which is good. I think they should remove the "natural" though as it does not make sense there, IMO. In my opinion "natural consequences" belongs on the very bottom row.


Yeah, consequences are used _only_ for aggression.

That is one of the advantages of getting skilled at using and relying on redirection of attention during period from roughly age 2 to 6 for annoying behaviors that are harmless in the short run.


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

I'm a foster parent, and have worked as an early childhood education specialist (and preschool-third grade teacher.) There are many very effective, and respected, parent education programs that aren't even on that list.


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## Snydley (Feb 22, 2012)

> The question I would ask (related to this thread) is this. DOES praise raise social skills, thinking skills, and motivation? Because, for my kids, I do not think it does.


No praise does not help any of those things you list. There is an extremely fine line between praise and manipulation. A great example was given by a pp, where she mentioned a "how nice you look today!" comment from a parent being interpreted by the child as "you normally look like crap and I find that disappointing" (paraphrased). This was how my mother talked to me, and you should have seen how I dressed/acted in my college years (dyed black hair, long hippie skirts, doc marten boots, smoker). I think it was my way of saying "I won't be what you wish I was". Her thoughts were largely administered via "praising" what she wanted to see.

I just finished reading both Unconditional Parenting and some of Kohn's essays on education they were all so satisfying to read. I think he's really got it figured out. One example I think of is my DD's weekly spelling tests. Every Friday we would get home from school and when the test came out of her folder, it just never felt right to say "AWESOME JOB!!" If I give a huge reaction to when she does well, how will she feel when she doesn't? Also, I don't actually care about the tests; I don't even think I first grader should have to take them. Sometimes I'll say "cool you got them all this week" or "tricky ones this week, whatever" when she doesn't get many right. My DD, unlike many or her peers, never has test anxiety. Her teacher actually complained to me about the fact that she is not interested in finishing artwork, writing, etc so that it can be hung in the hallway for all to see. "Who cares?" my DD told her. :grin: She listens intensely to the lessons and is interested in learning the new material...but praise? It's not on her radar. Academic motivation has to be intrinsic to last (and to be enjoyable!).

She's been offering to help set the table lately. We tried last year to have her set the table to earn an allowance (it never took off), yet here she is, doing it on her own for some reason. I mentioned to DH when she did this last night, how some might feel this is the appropriate time to praise her, to say "what a great helper!" or something, and if this was said, my next thought would be (if I were her) "what, do you think I'm such a lousy person that this is so surprising??"

It seems counterintuitive, but I think praise from parents can easily have a negative effect.

-Jen


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

Polliwog said:


> I'm a foster parent, and have worked as an early childhood education specialist (and preschool-third grade teacher.) There are many very effective, and respected, parent education programs that aren't even on that list.


Please tell us which ones? Or, just the best ones if there are too many.


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

IdentityCrisisMama said:


> My point is not to make you feel unwelcome but, rather to point out that if you are not here to learn but, rather give advice, please be aware that praise and withholding feedback, although fitting with GD (IMO), are both on the rather conservative end of the GD spectrum. I believe that if you were actually parenting right now (not grand parenting, which is miles different - and I have VERY involved parents), I think that some of the limitations of this type of discipline would be apparent in more than just a theoretical way.


(bringing this over from another thread where we were off topic)

You and I are about equal on non-theoretical experience.

My wife and I raised two kids (and I had two older step-kids), so, relative to other parents, I have a typical amount of non-theoretical experience with the limitations of these methods.

If someone posts advice on a forum like this without pointing out the limitations, typically someone else will point out the limitations.

My advice seems to help some parents here:



twinning002 said:


> Thanks so much! This is really great advice. In just the past week alone I've noticed how praising them more for acts of kindness and helpfulness has helped out daily. It makes a lot of sense, actually...if what they want is attention and they get it from cooperating and not misbehaving, it makes sense that they will cooperate more in order to get what they want. I don't expect miracles over night and I think he may continue to test the waters with me for awhile, but definitely...so far, so good. Our shopping trip this week was a little shaky, but they were more helpful and I had only one surprise item while unpacking groceries, which made me very happy. I really want to stay consistent with the praise because in these last few weeks of my pregnancy, anything that allows me to tell/show them how much I appreciate them feels really good. These are really special times. I'll stay patient and consistent with this strategy. Thanks for sharing w/ me!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Thanks! I feel better getting all philosophical (and all over the place) on a more general thread - especially one started by me. 

I think all experience becomes theoretical (in a way) when we are no longer practicing. I do think that the gusto that you have taken in the forum with a fairly clear message in favor of feedback reinforcement is a bit concerning - if only because I do think it is a somewhat "basic" look at GD and is unfortunate in that it is driven by addressing behavior not motivation. 

And that's also where I think the problem with this being mainly theoretical. If you were giving advice on breastfeeding, let's say, and lots of time had passed between your experience and giving advice, you may well forget all the things that we are keeping track of. Discipline is even more complicated, IMO, because we are NOT (ideally) choosing just what "works" we are modeling an entire value system. To me, discipline is the most fundamental part of my relationship with my child - it IS the relationship. 

So, something may well look good on paper and it may well work -- but put into practice it may not feel good. If consensual living appeals to someone, heavy behavior modification is probably not going to feel like a good fit, no matter what a bang-up job it can do in the short term. 

There are a lot of forms of behavior modification that I have not ruled out - not "grounding", not behavior charts, not "bribes". None of it. I would never, ever hit my child (and if I did I would get help for that with every means possible) and I will feel terrible if I find myself resorting to shame (again and get help) but some of the other more traditional stuff has its place, IMO. If you NEED it. 

Problem is that a lot of mainstream approaches put these patches above addressing basic issues.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

IdentityCrisisMama said:


> Thanks! I feel better getting all philosophical (and all over the place) on a more general thread - especially one started by me.
> 
> I think all experience becomes theoretical (in a way) when we are no longer practicing. I do think that the gusto that you have taken in the forum with a fairly clear message in favor of feedback reinforcement is a bit concerning - if only because I do think it is a somewhat "basic" look at GD and is unfortunate in that it is driven by addressing behavior not motivation.
> 
> ...


I think it is very inappropriate to call another mother's view of gentle discipline basic or to imply that a mother's view is not important because her kids are grown. Our community is so small that this type of name calling seems even more inappropriate coming from someone who is supposed to help the community maintain a level of respect that makes all members feel welcome.

I personally love hearing from mother's who have raised their children in gentle ways because I know how much I have learned just in the last 11 years, how much I have grown in my understanding of how children express love and want to feel love, how much I have grown towards being more open minded about how to discipline, and I feel that they have so much more to offer having even more experience. I may not always agree but there are more respectful ways to disagree than telling someone they are obsolete and only have a basic view of gd.

I think you are possibly feeling attacked by others and are lashing out because you feel they are implying you don't love your kids enough if they think that praise is important and you are wrong for not using it. I think that as mother's who use gd we do what we feel is right for our children. Nobody is questioning your love and connection to your children, you know what your children need and what makes them feel the most loved, so there is no need to lash out. It takes away from your message when you do.


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

IdentityCrisisMama said:


> I do think that the gusto that you have taken in the forum with a fairly clear message in favor of feedback reinforcement is a bit concerning - if only because I do think it is a somewhat "basic" look at GD and is unfortunate in that it is driven by addressing behavior not motivation.


You mean the parent's motivation?

I think it is driven by addressing the kid's motivation.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

One_Girl said:


> I think you are possibly feeling attacked by others and are lashing out because you feel they are implying you don't love your kids enough if they think that praise is important and you are wrong for not using it.


I appreciate your opinion but I don't think that's what's going on for me. I think it does have something to do with the activity level on the forum and concern for a dominance of more mainstream views. It's not that I mind that perspective, because I don't - we have always had that and I have often been the more mainstream in the discussion.

But the forums are slow so members who post frequently become the voice of the forum. I do think behaviorism and the advice to address behavior through feedback is basic - meaning it does not go deep enough into the problem.

FTR, this is sort of spin off from several threads that I requested to have moved over, so there may be a bunch of layers lost because of that. I think probably a new spin-off would have been clearer but Tadasmar chose to post back here and I am continuing a discussion that started in part on another thread. Apologies if that is confusing or if the other members who participated in the original topic on this thread feel left in the lurch.

Tadasmar and I could always take it to PM but I do appreciate other perspectives as well.

I feel quite confidently NOT defensive, which surprised me earlier in the thread. :grin:


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

tadamsmar said:


> I think it is driven by addressing the kid's motivation.


I wish I heard more about the child's motivation. I feel like it gets teased in discussion but when we talk about behaviorism, I feel like it's not the first thing that is discussed and, therefore, it feels like the underlying issues take a back burner to behavior.

For me, it works better (and feels more "holistic") to flip it around.


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

IdentityCrisisMama said:


> There are a lot of forms of behavior modification that I have not ruled out - not "grounding", not behavior charts, not "bribes". None of it. I would never, ever hit my child (and if I did I would get help for that with every means possible) and I will feel terrible if I find myself resorting to shame (again and get help) but some of the other more traditional stuff has its place, IMO. If you NEED it.


Hitting and shaming is not part of any parenting method I would recommend.


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

IdentityCrisisMama, you seem you want me to stop recommending certain practices on this forum that_ are on your own personal list of acceptable practices_.


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

IdentityCrisisMama said:


> There are a lot of forms of behavior modification that I have not ruled out - not "grounding", not behavior charts, not "bribes". None of it. I would never, ever hit my child (and if I did I would get help for that with every means possible) and I will feel terrible if I find myself resorting to shame (again and get help) but some of the other more traditional stuff has its place, IMO. If you NEED it.


Yes! If you omit _all_ the "traditional stuff" from CL, you get a parenting method that will not give you the tools you need.

Alan Kazdin, the head of the Yale Parenting Center and Child Conduct Center says PET is "necessary and not sufficient". (I know you don't view it that way, but PET generally viewed as omitting all the "traditional stuff", and I have not seen a shred of evidence to the contrary.)

The "traditional stuff" I recommend to parents who seem to need it is not your Mama's traditional stuff. It has been improved and debugged by decades of more recent research.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

tadamsmar said:


> IdentityCrisisMama, you seem you want me to stop recommending certain practices on this forum that_ are on your own personal list of acceptable practices_.


No, I don't. I will be honest and say that I am not exactly sure what my issue is. If I were to guess, I think it is the different approach to advice giving. I really value the combination of experience the theoretical. The theoretical gives us a chance to be the best we can be and to be very thoughtful and intentional. And the experience is humbling and allows us to see how the theories play out in reality.

This is really a spin off that is not especially relevant to this thread but since we're talking here I suppose I will just re-cap.

I felt like there was a lot of weigh being thrown behind the behaviorist approach (saying that all respected parenting approaches held it as a component, for instance, or the suggestion that your advice was backed by research) and I think that combined with the fact that you discovered this after your kids were grown, and in response to your daughter-in-laws parenting, made me want to dig deeper into all of that.

I think there is a little misunderstanding of my intentions as we try to patch together a long conversation over on a new thread but, to reiterate, I am not saying you shouldn't share your opinions. Not that it would be my place to say that in the first place. But, if any of us have an idea that has really not been put to the test, I think it fair enough to bring that into the conversation.

I did not mean to get overly personal with you and if I did I really do apologize - genuinely. I think you and I were in the mood to talk (am I assuming correctly?) and we got off track on a lot of issues, all of which I found interesting and enriching.

A long while back we tried to have a discussion of a variety of GD theories. Members would choose a theory they knew about or wanted to research and share information to launch a discussion. It would have been great to have you around then!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

tadamsmar said:


> Yes! If you omit _all_ the "traditional stuff" from CL, you get a parenting method that will not give you the tools you need.
> 
> Alan Kazdin, the head of the Yale Parenting Center and Child Conduct Center says PET is "necessary and not sufficient".


For what, though? It would be helpful to have some links for me to see because I can't tell if this is an evaluation of PET as a parenting book/strategy or an evaluation of PET as to whether it should be recommended as a government sponsored parenting program.

It happens that PET was required of me (and paid for!) as a parent of my DC's PUBLIC school. Wild, right? At the time I was pretty into CL so PET didn't seem all that radical to me but looking at the books this week reminds me that it is pretty CL, as you say.

But I do not think PET would be appropriate for a government program. You are right that it doesn't address things like anger management (that I know of) and I think it would just be generally difficult for parents used to harsh forms of discipline to implement.


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

You have a practical parenting philosophy, informed by your own experience as a parent, that include some "traditional stuff" because you think it is necessary.

Do you know of any CL parenting book that includes all the "tradition stuff" that your philosophy includes? UP? PET? Any other book?


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

tadamsmar said:


> Do you know of any CL parenting book that includes all the "tradition stuff" that your philosophy includes? UP? PET? Any other book?


I don't know. It seems like you feel this "traditional stuff" is essential. I don't and I think you maybe misunderstand my meaning when I say I have not ruled some of the traditional stuff out. I think it's good to have some options to consider in the event that all else fails.

It is, as you said on the other thread, about a change in perspective.


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

I spend most of my time, when not in here, in early childhood classrooms (Pre-K to 2nd Grade,) and teaching professional development workshops to early childhood teachers, and occasional to parents. I have really only seen the push for heavy duty "behavior modification" techniques here. As a general rule, the teachers I'm involved with, practice management techniques that work "with" instead of "to."

I've seen a lot of oversimplication here. Yes, consistency is important and you get more of what you attend to. But, human beings are more complicated than dogs.


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

Polliwog said:


> I've seen a lot of oversimplication here. Yes, consistency is important and you get more of what you attend to. But, human beings are more complicated than dogs.


Well, you believe that "you get more of what you attend to", but where is that principle in the GD books?

Some aspects of this are simple.


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

IdentityCrisisMama said:


> I don't know. It seems like you feel this "traditional stuff" is essential. I don't and I think you maybe misunderstand my meaning when I say I have not ruled some of the traditional stuff out. I think it's good to have some options to consider in the event that all else fails.
> 
> It is, as you said on the other thread, about a change in perspective.


You said it was sometimes needed. That's the same as saying it's essential.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

tadamsmar said:


> You said it was sometimes needed. That's the same as saying it's essential.


If I said it was needed, that is not what I meant.(can you link me?) To clarify, I think there is a big spectrum of things that a parent may choose to turn to if meeting a child's primary needs isn't enough for them. I don't think there is anything wrong with that but I also don't think the next logical conclusion is that these things are essential to the relationship or the child.


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

tadamsmar said:


> Well, you believe that "you get more of what you attend to", but where is that principle in the GD books?
> 
> Some aspects of this are simple.


I think it's completely woven into gentle discipline. Especially when you are looking at the underlying need behind a behavior. My oldest might be having a tantrum, which is sometimes violent. I HAVE to try and see what message he's sending at the time. Sometimes a good hug, or sitting quietly nearby, is just what is needed.


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

IdentityCrisisMama said:


> There are a lot of forms of behavior modification that I have not ruled out - not "grounding", not behavior charts, not "bribes". None of it. I would never, ever hit my child (and if I did I would get help for that with every means possible) and I will feel terrible if I find myself resorting to shame (again and get help) but some of the other more traditional stuff has its place, IMO. If you NEED it.


This is where you said it is sometimes needed.

If it's always optional, then one would never need it.


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

Polliwog said:


> I think it's completely woven into gentle discipline. Especially when you are looking at the underlying need behind a behavior. My oldest might be having a tantrum, which is sometimes violent. I HAVE to try and see what message he's sending at the time. Sometimes a good hug, or sitting quietly nearby, is just what is needed.


I am having trouble following your line of thought. First you say you believe that you get more of the behaviors you pay attention to, and then you mention that you give your oldest a hug in response to a tantrum.


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

tadamsmar said:


> How old is your oldest?
> 
> What do you mean by violent?


Ten. And about what it sounds like. Not very often, any more.


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

Polliwog said:


> I think it's completely woven into gentle discipline. Especially when you are looking at the underlying need behind a behavior. My oldest might be having a tantrum, which is sometimes violent. I HAVE to try and see what message he's sending at the time. Sometimes a good hug, or sitting quietly nearby, is just what is needed.


I am having trouble following your line of thought. First you say you believe that you get more of the behaviors you pay attention to, and then you mention that you give your oldest a hug in response to a tantrum.

Has your 10 year old been having tantrums for 8 years? (They typically start at age 2.)


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

tadamsmar said:


> This is where you said it is sometimes needed.
> 
> If it's always optional, then one would never need it.


I'm not sure where the conversation is going but this concept is really not that hard. I can break it down in a day for you.

You wake up and have a nice day with your kids and any challenges are avoided or solved by basic things like making sure everyone is fed, entertained, loved, respected, and with creative consensual ideas. The day goes on like that and although the parent is open to some other forms of dealing with challenges, that need never arises. That happens one day, and then the next.

Is that all families? No - to suggest that (and that is part of what I am trying to avoid here) would be to ignore that not all kids have an easy time of it, and not all parents have the resources to deal with problems in this way, and that this form of relating may well NOT be best for all kids or all parents.

But it is possible and it's a pretty good goal, IMO.


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

tadamsmar said:


> I am having trouble following your line of thought. First you say you believe that you get more of the behaviors you pay attention to, and then you mention that you give your oldest a hug in response to a tantrum.
> 
> Has your 10 year old been having tantrums for 8 years? (They typically start at age 2.)


Not really. More like six or seven. His early childhood was pretty traumatic, though. His rages require connection, not isolation, much of the time. So, I ATTEND to that need. Other times, he seems to need to work things out on his own. Don't worry. His therapists, and I, have it covered. Most of the time, that is.


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

IdentityCrisisMama said:


> I'm not sure where the conversation is going but this concept is really not that hard. I can break it down in a day for you.
> 
> You wake up and have a nice day with your kids and any challenges are avoided or solved by basic things like making sure everyone is fed, entertained, loved, respected, and with creative consensual ideas. The day goes on like that and although the parent is open to some other forms of dealing with challenges, that need never arises. That happens one day, and then the next.
> 
> ...


It's true that a parent does not need every tool everyday. But the issue is that the tools are nowhere to be found in the toolbox, so the toolbox is insufficient for everyday parenting.

CL books seem to be failing for a good many of the parents who write the OPs I have posted on. They are trying to use CL, but feel out of control, angry, at a loss as to what to do. Maybe it's not best for them or their kids.

What about parents that are very committed to CL, who have totally bought in to the notion that behaviorism should be completely avoided, but where CL is a bad fit for their kids? (Or maybe a bad fit for the parents, not sure what you mean by lack of resources.)


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I think that it's totally FINE if you're not into CL or you don't think the books, workshops, and etc. are sufficient. But, I don't think your method of evaluating their efficacy makes sense. People who practice all varieties of discipline have hard patches - or do they not with the Kazdin method? Or do you not know because you discovered and became convinced of this method after your children were grown?


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

IdentityCrisisMama said:


> I think that it's totally FINE if you're not into CL or you don't think the books, workshops, and etc. are sufficient. But, I don't think your method of evaluating their efficacy makes sense. People who practice all varieties of discipline have hard patches - or do they not with the Kazdin method? Or do you not know because you discovered and became convinced of this method after your children were grown?


My view is that_ Incredible Years_ is sufficient.

The book _Kazdin Method for Parenting the Defiant Child_ is not sufficient in my view, totally focused on conduct.

In my view, the combination of _Kazdin Method_ and _PET_ is sufficient, but you have to ignore the unqualified behaviorism-bashing in PET. Of these books, _Kazdin Method_ does the best job of explaining parenting, and PET does the best job of explaining CL. (One thing that Incredible Years has that these books don't is a section of skills training for school, and I think it provides more advice on taking care of yourself.)

Kazdin's other book _Everyday Parenting_ is more well rounded, but the non-behaviorist part of the book seem more anecdotal and less systematic.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

tadamsmar said:


> ...unqualified behaviorism-bashing in PET.


This is not accurate.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

tadamsmar said:


> My view is that_ Incredible Years_ is sufficient.


I just bought it. I like having a CD library so I will look forward to reading it.



tadamsmar said:


> Kazdin's other book _Everyday Parenting_ is more well rounded, but the non-behaviorist part of the book seem more anecdotal and less systematic.


In an effort to maybe wrap this up, I want to say that I can understand how and why a systematic approach would appeal to someone but that does not mean that I think the philosophical approach is lacking.

I am studying to be an art educator and you see a similar variety of approaches - some very systematic and practical and certainly many that are more philosophical and "ideas" based. These appeal to different needs and personalities.

I prefer the philosophical because, for me, it allows me to really internalize my own goals and values deeply and from there I manage to parent pretty authentically and efficiently without the need for a systematic approach.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

IdentityCrisisMama said:


> I prefer the philosophical because, for me, it allows me to really internalize my own goals and values deeply and from there I manage to parent pretty authentically and efficiently without the need for a systematic approach.


I am always evaluating what seems to be working and what not, reevaluating my motivations, questioning my desire to address certain behaviors and prioritizing certain needs. It would not do for me to live entirely within any one system, nor philosophy except my own. No matter how well thought out, no system is complete if you are a thinking, rational parent who is willing to question when the need arises.

My goal is not a certain "end behavior" so much as having my children *think* their way through. For example, "Siblings Without Rivalry" is really excellent. I'm glad it's out there. I learned a few things, broke a few habits and patted myself on the back for avoiding others in the first place.

But the entirety of the book did not apply well to my family situation. I would still recommend it, certainly. But my older daughter cringed and cried when I sat down quietly to try some of the exercises. So I ditched that.

Systems are nice for breaking out of habits, for thinking about your daily interactions with children. But once you start internalizing, some things will feel genuine, some things will not. Some things will work with your family, some will not. I challenge any system or philosophy to fit perfectly with every family situation.

Having some "traditional" methods going alongside something like CL is not a failure on the part of CL, any more than my having a few rules in my house is making our Unschooling a failure. Nothing is, nothing can be complete and entire when it comes from without.

If anything claims to be complete, I don't believe it. If a family claims their philosophy is complete, I do believe it to the extent that they mean for right now. It is complete for their family because they have created it something perfect, specific , and *adaptable* for their family.

Hopefully parents are paying attention to the natural, subtle (sometimes overt) feedback they are *receiving* from their kids.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

:clap

:yeah

"Yea, that" x 1000


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## marsupial-mom (Feb 3, 2010)

I read through the thread and went back to this first post because I feel a few things have not been addressed the way I see them.


IdentityCrisisMama said:


> I also feel like it puts into words things that just don't need to be communicated that way. When we are enjoying our children's company or appreciative of help, that is conveyed better without words oftentimes.


I disagree. I happen to believe (and it may just be my belief or value) that positive words can only add to a great experience. I feel it's very important to convey our joy, happiness, gratitude, etc. to our children. I think it's important to name emotions regularly. And I think it's important to make certain that our children understand precisely what we mean.

Now, my basic parenting philosophy is that the most important thing to do for my child(ren) is to maintain a healthy and loving relationship. I feel that doing this has it's own value but a side benefit is that it impacts my son's behavior. If we have a strong relationship then he will value my opinions more than if we have a poor relationship. If we have a strong relationship, he will listen and try to understand when I explain my values to him (for example, why I don't eat animals or why I vote). To maintain a strong relationship, I believe it is important that he knows - really knows will all his senses and intellect - how much I love him and appreciate him and enjoy him. Telling him how I feel - with the knowledge and desire that this may impact his behavior - could be seen as the type of feedback ICM objects to. I think it's good to give feedback of this sort.



IdentityCrisisMama said:


> The last problem is that. It isn't 100% authentic if we are doing it to influence behavior, is it?
> 
> What are your thoughts on this?


I don't buy this whole "living authentically" style of thought. Example: if I choose to be more thoughtful and appreciative of my husband so as to improve our relationship and so I consciously go out of my way to give him more positive feedback than usual and I continue to do this then eventually it will become a habit and then it will "come naturally" and be more "authentic."

That's how human behavior works - habitual, common behaviors feel more natural and authentic than the ones we have to work at. But that doesn't mean they're better or worse than behaviors we have to try to do. Almost anything worth doing feels unnatural and inauthentic at first.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

This is going to sound too simplistic. I hope. I stewed over it for a few days trying to think about it. 

As adults, we like positive feedback. I would say that most adults don't like to be praised for everything, because that can feel patronizing. We don't like to be manipulated with praise or rewards, either. But sincere engagement in the things we like from other people is great. It's why we're on this message board, for example! We want people to discuss the things we care about most.

I don't think I like criticism, ever. There's such a thing as critique of artwork where you feel like the other person is really engaged and with you--that can be positive. 

There are some things I have to teach my kid to do. It's my role, my job, to teach him what I know about human society--about manners and morals. I have to take care of his body and get him to take over that job, so that he learns habits that promote his good health. 

But, I can teach him all that stuff explicitly. I don't have to hide what I'm doing. I'm not training him. I am teaching him, so he's involved. He's with me on the whole project of growing up into an independent adult. He has been all along. 

So, that's how I feel about feedback. Some things we call feedback I don't want to do, because I'm not here to manipulate the child into doing what I want. Other things we call feedback, I'm all about those things, because I'm here to teach and also to learn. I sometimes can't stop myself from expressing that I'm proud and excited and delighted with my kid. Oh well. He seems to be OK so far.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

captain optimism said:


> But, I can teach him all that stuff explicitly. I don't have to hide what I'm doing. I'm not training him.


Yes! I feel the same way. 
b


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

Training can happen inadvertently.

If a kid crosses a limit that the parent has set and the parent reacts by launching in a teaching session then this can function as a training reward (because parental attention is a reward). If this happens repeatedly, then the parent will have inadvertently trained the kid to cross the limit. In this case, I think the parent is not being manipulative because the training is not intentional, I think manipulation has to be intentional.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

tadamsmar said:


> Training can happen inadvertently.


Yea, I would agree with this. That's part of why any "artificial" praise or criticism meant to indirectly change behavior makes little practical sense to me.

I got a copy of The Incredible Years. I'm just getting into it but so far like what I read. I liked the attention to children living up and down to expectations -- some of the best advice I've ever heard about parenting. I also like the attention to temperament.

I loved this:

"...question-asking, especially when parents know the answer, is really a type of command since it requires children to perform."


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

tadamsmar said:


> Training can happen inadvertently.
> 
> If a kid crosses a limit that the parent has set and the parent reacts by launching in a teaching session then this can function as a training reward (because parental attention is a reward). If this happens repeatedly, then the parent will have inadvertently trained the kid to cross the limit. In this case, I think the parent is not being manipulative because the training is not intentional, I think manipulation has to be intentional.


After our earlier discussion of inadvertent rewards for bad behavior, I tried to remember what it was like when my son was little. It was really hard to recall. Have I been rewarding bad behavior? Maybe. My son is really great though.

Last night, my friend needed an emergency babysitter for his three-year-old son. My son was at his dad's house. The little boy's mom was out of town and there's a lot going on in their family right now. I expected him to melt down, which is what he usually does when I see him with his folks.

When he got to my house, I cut up a watermelon for him, his dad and me. (I put the other pieces in a container.) His first response when his dad and I offered him food was to say no, so I told him he should just watch my technique with the fruit cutting and see if he wanted some. He did. (Ha, the fruit-cutting trick worked AGAIN! Muahaha, I am the master manipulatrix.) He felt so much better once he'd had some food. He said goodbye to his dad and kissed and hugged him at the door.

He played really nicely and quietly with my son's old toys while I made him dinner. We sat and ate and he was very polite and a good companion. Then I taught him how to excuse himself from the table and I cleaned up.

After dinner, we went outside and blew bubbles. I shared a book with him. He was at my house until an hour that would have been too late for my son at that age, but he was totally fine. He enjoyed everything that was available to enjoy. He was able to say when he was hungry or tired without whining. He helped me put away the toys! I didn't have to guide him through any of it.

This is the secret: there were no distractions. He was as rested and fed as I could get him. It was mellow, so he was mellow. There is absolutely no way this could be true in a family all the time!

But, I did do the two things I did with my own kid at that age: I built in resilience and good temper by thinking ahead about his food and sleep and the environment, and any adjustments I wanted him to make to his behavior I asked for explicitly. (I also worked hard to model the right behavior myself, which isn't always easy. I sometimes want to whine, pick my nose and be messy at the dinner table. When you have your own kid with you all the time, they see you do those things. Uh oh.)

You don't need to affirm that the child is smart because he understands a story or that he's good because he ate all his food at dinner, even if you're enjoying how he listens to a story or likes his dinner. He knows you like to be with him because you laugh at his jokes and engage him. I think we should have confidence that we know why our kids are wonderful, and that we know how bring it out in them. Or maybe they know why we're wonderful, and how to bring it out in us?


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## KathrynH (Jan 1, 2012)

So, I've been thinking about some of the points in this thread but haven't posted yet. It's probably a little late now, but I wanted to throw in my two cents...

I don't offer positive or negative remarks for everything my DS3 does, as I feel that life is full of it's own feedback. For example, when he was still a baby, I never praised him for standing up or taking steps. Those actions offer their own rewards. However, our house is not free of verbal feedback. I might offer comments on things I notice, "Wow! You wrote your name really well. I remember when you used to get frustrated that you couldn't make the letters the way you wanted to, but the more you do it, the better you get!" or "You were really friendly when you spoke to him. You looked him in the eye while you spoke and you listened to what he had to say. I think he was happy because he was smiling." I think I'm just trying to frame situations and make connections that my child might not necessarily make. 

But don't we do this with everyone? I mean, I can tell my DH that I really like the dinner he made because of this or that... and that's more than just expressing appreciation. I'm telling him WHY I like it, most likely in hopes that he'll do it again, but also just because I'm sharing. Or I might praise the way a colleague handles something at work, giving specific details & even relating it to how much growth I've seen in him/her, but that's not necessarily creating a "praise junky."

I don't know... I guess I just feel that offering positive comments is part of being a positive person. And I don't think it's wrong to try to influence the behavior of others in some ways, or reflect aloud on things that you might notice. Sure it can be used to excess, but it doesn't have to be. 

And there are some instances where NOT offering feedback seems wrong to me... What if someone is making prejudiced comments? What if I witness someone bullying another person? I'm probably going to offer some feedback, and it's likely not going to be all positive.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Thanks for joining, Katheryn. 

I agree with you. I think that the conversation got a bit more divisive than it should have been because I think some of my underlying motivations for posting were to discuss praise with the intentions of influencing behavior. 

I certainly offer genuine feedback, but perhaps less than someone who is prone to give praise as part of being a positive person. I certainly know and love many people who give a lot more feedback (especially positive) than I tend to give. 

That said, I do not think I have ever been on the receiving end of praise motivated by a desire to influence my behavior as an adult (and probably not as a child either). It HAPPENS that I do like to make people happy and am often motivated in part by that -- but I would not want to feel like an expression of happiness was motivated by wanting to make me continue to do something. That may seem like a silly distinction, I don't know. 

One other thing that came up for me as I thought about this discussion over the past couple of weeks is that my DC is 12. She is generally VERY agreeable and responsible. She does some things that are, IMO, way above and beyond. I point out to her if I am grateful for something she does but in the case of my DC it would be terrible of me to try to influence her to continue. It would be "greedy". 

I will say that while I tend to only give feedback when if feels truly authentic to me, I am interested in a new dynamic we are experiencing when DC has been given some compliments as a young adult. I don't withhold that feedback from her and it is a pleasure to share with her.


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