# Bratz Dolls?



## Eavesdrop (Nov 19, 2005)

I bought one for my niece. I thought it looked like a funky punk sort of Barbie doll. My niece's bedroom is already filled with ultra-frilly pink princess stuff and almost all of her dolls have blond hair even though my niece has dark hair so I thought this would make a cool present.

Anyhow, I mentioned it to a friend of mine who told me that Bratz are controversial and that people think they encourage young girls to act trashy or whatever . . . well, the doll is wearing makeup but other than that I don't see the big to do . . .

My SIL already thinks I'm nuts. I don't want to be a horrible aunt. Maybe I should return this thing.

Anyone else seen these?


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## lactationmom (Aug 13, 2002)

Our 9 yo got one of these from an old friend at her 7th birthday and my husband was SHOCKED. He was very offended and even went so far as to mention not letting this little girl over anymore. It went to the garbage can.

I think it was a last minute gift that the parents probably just grabbed, but anyway I think they are not nice over all. For one they are called 'Bratz', not really something I want my daughter aspiring to become







, they wear clothes made for club-hopping and prostitutes and makeup. The "Baby Bratz" wear bottles which is majorly offensive to me overall. I think they promote a lot of nasty stuff I wouldn't want my daughter knowing or seeing. But, we have a nice kid who reads, is into animals and science and overall thinks Bratz are disgusting so we must be doing ok with her so far







.

I would def. avoid those dolls, there are so many nice toys to buy, Waldorf type toys are MUCH nicer and wholesome and encourage active play. Groovy Girls are another alternative, cute, funky clothes and they are soft dolls with NO makeup or smutty stuff.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

My daughter isn't a brat and she plays with Bratz dolls.










And btw - why did the above poster label make-up as "smutty?" Bit extreme, don't you think? And Bratz clothes do NOT look like prostitutes clothes, good GRIEF, what a harsh thing to say! Your daughter thinks Bratz are "disgusting" because she is living up to your expectations of her.

Kids are only kids once. If a toy doesn't have a negative influence on my daughter, she can play with it. I will not deprive my child of anything toy that she wants unless it would bring her harm (or is of course out of my budget.)


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## Wolfmeis (Nov 16, 2004)

I would return it, honestly. They're horrible. My dh and I call them Slutz.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

My dd doesn't play with them, only because she thinks their big heads are weird. So we don't buy them for her. <shrug> But honestly... all the negativity surrounding these dolls... why?

Looking like prostitutes?? Calling them Slutz??

I hope you all don't talk about other people the way you're talking about these dolls.

To the OP, if you think she'll be offended.. return the doll. Its the polite thing to do. But you never know, she just might like it afterall.


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## G&B'sMama (Mar 25, 2005)

I have to say that I was pretty shocked last year when we went to a five year old birthday party and everyone brought Bratz dolls for the birthday girl. Silly us, we brought dress ups, and they were tossed aside in a heap. The mother apologized for the daughter's behavior but explained that she really outgrew dress ups when she was about three. This little girl also has a tv and dvd in her room, so I can assure you it was a household with a much different value system from ours. This was a girl my DD met at co-op preschool and she invited every girl in the class to her birthday party, otherwise my DD probably wouldn't have been invited.

My objection to bratz is that they are modeled on older behavior. I want my 5 year old to be 5, not a teenager. The dress and make up of the dolls is not appropriate for the age range of the children who play with them, or for whom they are intended. Mothering magazine had a great article on marketing toward tweens in the last issue and I feel that this is a product that fits that description. The toy itself isn't "bad"- its just a product of our popular culture, which in my opinion is very unhealthy.

I don't want my kids to grow up so fast, I want to nurture them through childhood so they grow up with a sense of wonder for the world around them and a good imagination. My kids aren't exposed to media- they don't watch TV or listen to commercial radio, or read magazines with ads in them. I wouldn't purposely avoid a kid or a family that had bratz dolls, but we probably wouldn't be in that situation because we are homeschooling and most of the kids we know come from families with similar ideas. My DD never knew what a bratz doll was until she went to that party. Truthfully, she wasn't that interested in those dolls anyway- because she hasn't been exposed to the media that makes her want to want them.


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## lactationmom (Aug 13, 2002)

"And btw - why did the above poster label make-up as "smutty?" Bit extreme, don't you think? And Bratz clothes do NOT look like prostitutes clothes, good GRIEF, what a harsh thing to say! Your daughter thinks Bratz are "disgusting" because she is living up to your expectations of her."

UMMMM...OK. YEAH.









To the above poster-my thoughts exactly. Why encourage them to grow up WAY faster than what they should, there are plenty of 'nice' toys that encourage them to be themselves, not something out of a grown up magazine. (not to mention, who is making these 'dolls'? They obviously want to encourage the use of bottles and pacifiers! and, makeup? sheesh! these are little girls!)


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## Eavesdrop (Nov 19, 2005)

Actually, Barbies bother me more. My SIL is a Barbie fanatic and my little niece, who will NEVER be tall, blond and slender cuz she's short dark and round like her mom; has got just about every Barbie that has ever been manufactured. At least Ms. Bratz doesn't have those great big Barbie boobs and her feet don't seem to be stuck in the permanent tip-toe-for-high-heels position.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

I am really pretty liberal in a lot of things I think... but I won't buy Bratz stuff for my kids or other people's kids.

I don't like them for a number of reasons. Firstly, the name. WHAT brilliant marketing executive dreamed THAT up??? What is the next line - dumbz? I just don't understand WHY they would use a term that no one would want their child to be.

Two, the makeup. Even the "baby Bratz" have makeup!

Three, they seem to be marketed to kids too young for the "look" of the dolls. I am not a big Barbie fan either for sure but if you look, you can find ones that are half decent re: general look.

Someone mentioned Groovy Girls. My dds (9 and 5) really like those and have some. We can all feel good about giving those as gifts and no need to worry if the parents will approve.

I do think that Bratz are controversial and wouldn't buy one for someone else's kid if I didn't know they were ok with it. Well, *I* wouldn't buy one regardless of if the parent cared or not but that is just me...

Isn't there some other "cool" gift you could get her that isn't that?


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I don't have a problem with them at all. My daughter has two.







There is no way that a doll could make my daughter do anything or act in any particular way. She makes the choices about who she wants to be, not her toys.


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## AndiG (Mar 3, 2005)

Ok, the Bratz dolls are really sort of hideous.
Their FEET come off and they put on NEW FEET when they change their shoes?????
My opinion of their clothes and make up aside, snapping off their feet sort of tunred me off of them.
I'm not a big Barbie fan, I'm certainly not a Bratz fan, I second what one of the other girls said about groovy girls being a nice option, they have changeable clothes, they are more geared to a young girl audience.

Little girls do like to model after things. Giving a Bratz doll to a really young child encourages age inappropriate behaviour modelling in my opinon.


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## afishwithabike (Jun 8, 2005)

Many do not like them and I personally feel it would be up to the parent to buy something like that for their DD. The "My Scene" Barbie's wear makeup and have dark hair and are more fashion forward. These are the dolls that my Nieces play with, and honestly I think they look like a lot of fun.


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

But their feet come off! Seriously, when you change their shoes you take off the entire foot! There is just a little stump!
I know this because my friend's new stepson, 11, loves them so I got him one for Christmas. I found dark haired girl wearing a kimono who is, apparently, a karate expert.(Her bag matches the print on my petunia pickbottoms--however you spell that--diaper bag I have.







)
I do confess, I was surprised by the make-up on the doll. It's really thick. But it's what he wanted and I like it that he doesn't bend to peer pressure and he plays with dolls.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
I don't have a problem with them at all. My daughter has two.







There is no way that a doll could make my daughter do anything or act in any particular way. She makes the choices about who she wants to be, not her toys.









Right on!


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## AndiG (Mar 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2mygirl*
But their feet come off! Seriously, when you change their shoes you take off the entire foot! There is just a little stump!

















glad to see this skeeved out someone OTHER than me.


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

You sound like a lovely, considerate aunt, who wants to buy just the right thing for her niece and not tick off her parents!

I'd suggest either asking her parents if they're ok with Bratz or just picking something else, though - as you can see from the above, they bring on some pretty strong feelings. Personally, I don't care for them at all, for a lot of the reasons above (had no idea about the feet, though), even though I've long since given up the ghost and given in with Barbie. I don't know if I'd 'ban' them in our house, but I wouldn't buy one for my daughter, and if people giving her gifts want suggestions, I'd suggest something else.

I agree Groovy Girls are great, and really popular these days. Polly Pockets can be fun too, although they're pretty clothes-oriented. Do they still have Get Real Girls? They were around a few years ago, a bit Barbie-ish, but with more realistic bodies, and sporty.


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## kewb (May 13, 2005)

I am not a Bratz fan. I think they do look slutty and dress inappropriately.
I do not buy them for my dd. To date she has none. If someone bought her one I would not throw it out. She could play with it if she desires. I suspect it would hold as much interest as her Barbies. They are in a box and rarely touched. She is not a doll girl.


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## AAK (Aug 12, 2004)

I would ask the mom. After all, the girls that really like them, REALLY like them so it would be a cool present if she was one of them.

As for me, I do not want those dolls in my house. I find them offensive. If someone were to ask me about them, I would ask them not to buy one for my dd. However, if someone just got her one, I wouldn't be snotty about it. After all, a lot of times I let my dd choose the presents she give friends (with some guidance) so if they are acceptable in someone else's house it would make sense that someone would choose one to give. I don't like Barbie's much either although we do have some. They were the lesser of two evils I guess and I didn't buy any (ours are second hand from cousin) so if we got a Bratz I would probably exchange it for something else, maybe even a new Barbie.

Amy


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

I don't have any daughters or young nieces but if I did, I wouldn't ever buy them a Bratz doll. They are too over the top for little girls. I wouldn't go as far as to call them slutty--they reflect some of the fashions that I see the teenaged girls around here rocking. But I don't find that approprate. I think Bratz are far from innocent; even Barbie is a better option IMI. Plus I think all these dolls place to heavy an empasis on fashion and make-up--a reflection of our society as a whole. I'd like to keep any girl I love away from that obsession with the outward. Those groovy dolls are really cute though--can't wait to have a baby girl!!!


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

I think a Bratz doll is something you should ask the parents about first. We won't have Barbies or Bratz in our home. Obviously, others think they're fine. I'd just ask first.


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## supermuma (Dec 12, 2005)

I am no fan of Bratz dolls either. I would ask the parents first because you don't want to waste your money for one thing! My daughter got a few when she turned 5 from one of my aunts and they went straight to Goodwill.
I really have a problem supporting the company because I find it disturbing that the Baby Bratz are so sexualized. It creeps me out and I don't like adding to any problem of girls being sexualized at younger and younger ages...kind of goes with my dislike for The Limited Too selling thongs in my 6 year olds size.
I am not a big fan of Barbie either because of the unrealistic portrayal to young girls....no girl could ever look like Barbie...but I think they are a bit better...though not by much...We were able to find a Barbie with a bit smaller chest than she once had...I think I read something awhile back about Barbie having a breast reduction!
My daughter LOVES the Groovy Girls as well, and they are pretty inexpensive. I think they are a bit too focused on changing clothes and going to parties, giggling etc...but they seem to be a bit more tame...and "wholesome".

Anyway, I would definately check with the parents, or just pick up something else if you want to be safe.










Just thought I would add to the opinion poll.


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## guestmama9972 (Jun 5, 2003)

I personally can't stand Bratz dolls. They represent a life-style that we don't think is worth modeling, especially by little girls. My girls don't watch TV and they don't have friends that have Bratz, so they haven't asked for them. I would never buy one and if we got one as a gift I would throw it away. DH and I work very hard to surround our girls with positive role models, and I don't think that my 4 year old is going to benefit by playing with a teenager-looking doll that is all about sex appeal. No thanks.

There are other dolls that are more appropriate for little girls, I think. I don't really like Barbie, but I saw that Barbie has a new like of cute dolls out called Wee Three Friends (or something like that) that seemed more oriented toward younger girls. Groovy girls are nice because they are widely available and are one less piece of plastic coming into your home.

Just some ideas.


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## tara (Jan 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
I don't have a problem with them at all. My daughter has two.







There is no way that a doll could make my daughter do anything or act in any particular way. She makes the choices about who she wants to be, not her toys.

Don't you think, though, that the toys you give your child send messages about cultural norms? That a child could get ideas about what is expected of women and girls in our cultural from the toys she plays with? I don't think that a doll has some magical ability to turn a girl into something she's not. But I think it's part of the package of media messages about femininity. She is sure to get exposed to these messages eventually living in this country, but I feel a big responsibility to be the bearer of alternative messages. And Bratz dolls, to me, send a pretty obnoxiously mainstream message about femininity (and, as pp have mentioned, it is a message that is waaaay older than the 5-6 year old girls who are nuts about these dolls).

I hate these dolls and would never buy them for anyone. Ny niece is really into them and wanted them for her birthday, and we got her this set of cool paper dolls instead (well, they weren't paper exactly.... it's hard to explain, they are thick cardboard and come with scraps of fabric, bricabrac, glitter and whatnot to make clothes). She loves the gift, and I felt like we were able to find a happy medium. I like Groovy Girls, too.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AndiG*

Little girls do like to model after things. Giving a Bratz doll to a really young child encourages age inappropriate behaviour modelling in my opinon.


And you are definately entitled to your opinion, but obviously not every girl is being encouraged to do anything inappropriate from a Bratz doll. My own daughter and her friend have felt no pressure or influence to be like a Bratz doll. I think it can go both ways, and depends on how a girl has been raised up to getting the doll.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tara*
Don't you think, though, that the toys you give your child send messages about cultural norms? That a child could get ideas about what is expected of women and girls in our cultural from the toys she plays with?

Well, yea she could get a lot of ideas but that's not a concern. Ideas are a _good_ thing. We discuss stuff. Everything from clothing, to how we define real beauty, to expressing ourselves through our clothes, make-up, self-esteem, media depictions of women (and men), sexuality, and so on.

My Dd (12) would actually wear some of the clothes that Bratz dolls wear. She would also wear a sweatshirt and jeans and no make-up. She likes to knit, sew, skateboard, cook, and play the drums. I think she is a lovely, strong, charming, intelligent female not afraid to be who she is. Bratz dolls are a toy she enjoys playing with, not the only image of womanhood she thinks there can ever be.


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## tara (Jan 29, 2002)

Hey, Unschool - your daughter is a bit older than the other girls mentioned in this thread, no? I think it makes a difference if we're talking about a 5 year old girl or a 11 or 12 year old who has more years of deconstructing social messages behind her...


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## tara (Jan 29, 2002)

Cross post!


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
I don't have a problem with them at all. My daughter has two.







There is no way that a doll could make my daughter do anything or act in any particular way. She makes the choices about who she wants to be, not her toys.

Whether the dolls are good or bad is irrelevant, IMO. The OP is asking if this is a controversial gift and if her niece's parents might not appreciate it. I think you know that many parents object to these dolls. Are you recommending that she disregard this and just risk giving an inappropriate gift? I mean, I know your personal stand on this as you follow TLC, but what is your opinion about whether she should give this gift or not?


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tara*
Hey, Unschool - your daughter is a bit older than the other girls mentioned in this thread, no? I think it makes a difference if we're talking about a 5 year old girl or a 11 or 12 year old who has more years of deconstructing social messages behind her...

My daughter had her first Bratz doll at 6, and she has NEVER expressed a desire to wear make-up or be a prostitute.








Furthermore, the dolls we have gotten her are dressed really cute, nothing that I wouldn't let her wear. One has an evening gown type dress which is quite long, another a ski outfit which is really cute and another one a blue jeans outfit. All of which are modest AND trendy/fashionable. But yet, my daughter doesn't dress like them, and the clothes she picks out are nothing like what her Bratz dolls have.

Honestly, I think some of you guys read waaaay too much into things that are a lot more simple than you make it out to be.


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## tara (Jan 29, 2002)

I'll say it again: I don't think a doll has some magical ability to make a child be something she is not. I think it is part of a package of cultural messages and I choose to provide alternative messages (seeing as the mainstream message bombards you from everywhere else). That's all.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tara*
Hey, Unschool - your daughter is a bit older than the other girls mentioned in this thread, no? I think it makes a difference if we're talking about a 5 year old girl or a 11 or 12 year old who has more years of deconstructing social messages behind her...


That's true she is a bit older now, but she got her first Bratz doll at 9. Even at age 6 we could have talked about all that. It's probably important for me to note that we don't "forbid" any certain brand or kind of toy in our family. So that means if we can financially do it, and they want it, so be it. I realize that not every family works that way though, and I can respect that.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild*
Whether the dolls are good or bad is irrelevant, IMO. The OP is asking if this is a controversial gift and if her niece's parents might not appreciate it. I think you know that many parents object to these dolls. Are you recommending that she disregard this and just risk giving an inappropriate gift? I mean, I know your personal stand on this as you follow TLC, but what is your opinion about whether she should give this gift or not?

 You are right! My apologies to the OP for misunderstanding the original question. Listen to me just all







lol.

Personally? Unless I had some sort of hint or idea that it would be a problem I wouldn't think twice about buying a girl a Bratz doll. I have bought a few for some girls in my life. If the OP has any concerns though, I would just ask the child's mother before hand as a courtesy.


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:

I think they are not nice over all. For one they are called 'Bratz', not really something I want my daughter aspiring to become , they wear clothes made for club-hopping and prostitutes and makeup. The "Baby Bratz" wear bottles which is majorly offensive to me overall. I think they promote a lot of nasty stuff I wouldn't want my daughter knowing or seeing.


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## teachma (Dec 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
I don't have a problem with them at all. My daughter has two.







There is no way that a doll could make my daughter do anything or act in any particular way. She makes the choices about who she wants to be, not her toys.

This is how I tend to feel. Granted, my dd isn't yet two, so we haven't gotten to these yet, but I agree with the general sentiment expressed here.


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## afishwithabike (Jun 8, 2005)

Quote:

My Dd (12) would actually wear some of the clothes that Bratz dolls wear. She would also wear a sweatshirt and jeans and no make-up. She likes to knit, sew, skateboard, cook, and play the drums. I think she is a lovely, strong, charming, intelligent female not afraid to be who she is. Bratz dolls are a toy she enjoys playing with, not the only image of womanhood she thinks there can ever be.
Right on. Dolls are for imaginative play and pretend. Don't little girls play and pretend with any doll they have? Isn't playing dress up the same thing? Come on don't you remember being a little girl and playing in mom's makeup...Putting on her pearls....Heels...and clothes? It's no difference. DH and I were just discussing recently that when DD gets old enough to go shopping with he didn't care if we tried on "Clothes you would absolutely NEVER wear and laugh". My mom and I did this. Spandex tube dresses, trampy schoolgirl outfits, raunchy looking thing bikinis. It was fun. Did I ever go out like that HE** NO. Was it fun pretending? Yes and bonding with my mom. A doll is a doll..Barbie..Bratz..or Strawberry Shortcake. They play pretend with them no matter what age they are. Does it define who they are or who they will be when they get older. NO!!! As I stated earlier regarding the OP. It is contraversial enough that I would leave it up to the parents to buy a doll like that. I also liked others that responded by saying to get the parents permission. We tell our DC not to get wrapped up in stuff yet we are doing it here..HUMMMMMM.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Zombiewaif*
Right on. Dolls are for imaginative play and pretend. Don't little girls play and pretend with any doll they have? Isn't playing dress up the same thing? Come on don't you remember being a little girl and playing in mom's makeup...Putting on her pearls....Heels...and clothes? It's no difference. DH and I were just discussing recently that when DD gets old enough to go shopping with he didn't care if we tried on "Clothes you would absolutely NEVER wear and laugh". My mom and I did this. Spandex tube dresses, trampy schoolgirl outfits, raunchy looking thing bikinis. It was fun. Did I ever go out like that HE** NO. Was it fun pretending? Yes and bonding with my mom. A doll is a doll..Barbie..Bratz..or Strawberry Shortcake. They play pretend with them no matter what age they are. Does it define who they are or who they will be when they get older. NO!!! As I stated earlier regarding the OP. It is contraversial enough that I would leave it up to the parents to buy a doll like that. I also liked others that responded by saying to get the parents permission. We tell our DC not to get wrapped up in stuff yet we are doing it here..HUMMMMMM.


Well spoken.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Hate 'em

They send the absolute wrong message to all girls. IMHO

The cool thing is, my dd hates them too. She says they scare her with their heads! She's 10.5

Here is a brat doll. Just love the Oh La La name!!?!?!

Here is a My Scene Barbie. Check out the halter top. Unbelievable.

Click on the My scene doll and really check out that outfit.

To the OP - I wouldn't get it.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

I took a really good look at a Bratz doll in a store after reading another thread that was bashing them. I decided that I think they're kinda cute, in a big head, big eyed sort of way.

I'm the type who thinks it's ridiculous to assume a little girl who plays with dolls such as those is internalizing negative ideas about herself. She's playing with a doll. Besides, most kids I've known strip off their dolls clothes first thing. Secondly, so many teenaged and adult women wear make-up that the little girls would probably not even think about it.









That's about it. I don't even know why I posted. I don't really have much opinion on this.

to the op, I'd ask the mom first before giving it as a gift. No point in being forever shunned if the parents are opposed to them.









~Nay


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tara*
Don't you think, though, that the toys you give your child send messages about cultural norms?


No, I honestly don't. Since most people don't dress like a Bratz doll I'm sure my son (no girls yet) would be able to figure out that the doll is the exception to the norm, not the norm.









~Nay


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## dynamicdoula (Jun 11, 2004)

While our toys do not define our children...

* I don't need one more influence on my kids telling them to be more grown up than they already are.

* I don't need one more influence on my children emphasizing female sexuality as a power to be sought after and exploited

* I don't need anything else emphasizing the sexualization of children

It's on TV, it's in magazines, billboards, now there are books written for young tweens/teens that discuss sex graphically!

Why would I encourage my 6yo cousin to consider seeing herself or any other girl her age as sexual. She already covets make up, which her mother won't even let her PRETEND to wear, like it is the holy freaking grail- and yet she is a huge fan and owner of many Bratz paraphrenalia. Confusing? I think so.

I think these dolls emphasize traits in women that are not positive, and they expose girls to aspects of womanhood they do not have the framework for, they are not mature enough to integrate or be responsible for.

And I'm sorry... the babies have *french cut panties*.


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## lilmiss'mama (Mar 8, 2002)

I would ask the mom first. I personally dislike the Bratz dolls; the whole name is a turn off. Don't like barbies either, but I think I'd rather see my girls with barbies than bratz. My older daughter just got barbies from a distant relative and doesn't even play with them. She likes her groovy girl and more traditional looking babies. I too have a problem with the teenage look being marketed to small children. Has anyone ever seen the documentary Killing Us Softly? It's about the media and women and it is disturbing.


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## Minky (Jun 28, 2005)

I probably wouldn't buy a Bratz doll for a child other than my own unless I knew that child had them already. I don't personally like them but don't see the harm. It's not about the toy, it's about how the child uses the toy. If my DD wanted to dress like a Bratz, I think we'd have to have a chat about the difference between a toy and reality.


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## momma2mingbu (Jun 1, 2002)

I will NEVER allow these dolls in my home. It looks like a streetwalker.


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## momma2mingbu (Jun 1, 2002)

ROTFL...no the Bratz feet aren't stuck in tip toe position - THEY COME OFF - that's right, you don't change the doll's shoes, you change her FEET. If that isn't creepy, then I don't know what is! (My older nieces were into these for a while.)


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## 1xmom (Dec 30, 2003)

After reading this thread, I'm glad my dd is striving to have her own library and only wants books







.

She does have some barbies but doesn't play with them anymore. They were gifts from people and she went through a short phase of playing w/them. She's ever mentioned Bratz dolls and I am glad b/c I would probably have a hard time buying one if she did. Personally, I don't like the way they look either.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Since a pervious poster seemed to dig around to find a Bratz doll with black boots and a short black skirt







here are some super cute Bratz dolls:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

And like I said, the ones my daughter has, the clothes are perfectly "acceptable." But IMO, my family isnt' Amish, and therefore, clothes are clothes, and when she is a teenager and she wears a short skirt and some lipstick, I'm not going to wig out on her and call her a hooker either.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

nak yup yup


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brinley*
I bought one for my niece. I thought it looked like a funky punk sort of Barbie doll. My niece's bedroom is already filled with ultra-frilly pink princess stuff and almost all of her dolls have blond hair even though my niece has dark hair so I thought this would make a cool present.

Anyhow, I mentioned it to a friend of mine who told me that Bratz are controversial and that people think they encourage young girls to act trashy or whatever . . . well, the doll is wearing makeup but other than that I don't see the big to do . . .

My SIL already thinks I'm nuts. I don't want to be a horrible aunt. Maybe I should return this thing.

Anyone else seen these?

Yeah...With all due respect, Brinley, I hate those dolls personally and believe that they tend to encourage early sexualization in young girls. You're free to disagree, of course, and I expect we may have different opinions, but the reason I think so is that they look like teeny little Angelina Jolies, but without the noses. (I guess Kate Moss is busy using them...) Big boobs, bee-stung lips, low-cut clothing, clingy low-riding jeans...I just think that it sends a message that "This is what I'm supposed to look like" to a little girl, or even worse, "I am only valuable if I look like this." FWIW, I'm not wild about Barbie for the same reasons. Again, nothing personal -- just my opinions.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

lab said:


> Hate 'em
> 
> They send the absolute wrong message to all girls. IMHO
> 
> ...


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
Since a pervious poster seemed to dig around to find a Bratz doll with black boots and a short black skirt







here are some super cute Bratz dolls:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

And like I said, the ones my daughter has, the clothes are perfectly "acceptable." But IMO, my family isnt' Amish, and therefore, clothes are clothes, and when she is a teenager and she wears a short skirt and some lipstick, I'm not going to wig out on her and call her a hooker either.

Mrs. Moe, I have a feeling we're just going to have to agree to disagree about this -- I found the clothing sexualized and immodest. The shirt was cut low and it was a belly shirt to boot, the pants were clingy and low-cut, and the doll's very prominent Tammy Faye Bakker-like makeup and puffy lips, big breasts, and micro-waist (plus the first one's pose as a rock star) communicate to little girls the message that "You're supposed to look like this."

In other words, women, you're here to entertain, to be an object of people's gazes, to be looked at. You're of value only if your sexuality is emphasized to the point of self-parody.

Moreover, Mrs. Mom, I believe you are falsely polarizing the argument -- what's called "creating a false dichotomy." The false dichotomy you are creating is that either you're in favor of Bratz dolls or you're Amish. Frankly, there is room for many more options than two. Speaking just for myself here, the Amish option's looking pretty good by contrast.







Image


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## tara (Jan 29, 2002)

I feel compelled to add that I don't like the idea that adult women (or teen women) who want to wear skimpy clothing or makeup are considered streetwalkers and tramps. I have no problems with sexuality and my dislike of these dolls is not about discomfort with sexualized images, really. If I had a teen daughter who wanted to dress like a Bratz doll, I might talk with her about it but I wouldn't forbid it. But a little girl... Basically, I'm not big on modesty as some kind of moral high ground, but I feel like girls need to know _all_ of their options re: sexuality and gender roles. And since the culture at large is sure to share the idea that Bratz-style femininity is valued, I feel compelled to spend my energies sharing the other choices.


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## *Devon* (Aug 9, 2004)

OK, I have not read any of the replies here but I just have to say:

It is weird as hell that their feet come off.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
Mrs. Moe, I have a feeling we're just going to have to agree to disagree about this -- I found the clothing sexualized and immodest. The shirt was cut low and it was a belly shirt to boot, the pants were clingy and low-cut, and the doll's very prominent Tammy Faye Bakker-like makeup and puffy lips, big breasts, and micro-waist (plus the first one's pose as a rock star) communicate to little girls the message that "You're supposed to look like this."

In other words, women, you're here to entertain, to be an object of people's gazes, to be looked at. You're of value only if your sexuality is emphasized to the point of self-parody.

Moreover, Mrs. Mom, I believe you are falsely polarizing the argument -- what's called "creating a false dichotomy." The false dichotomy you are creating is that either you're in favor of Bratz dolls or you're Amish. Frankly, there is room for many more options than two. Speaking just for myself here, the Amish option's looking pretty good by contrast.







Image


I love to wear make-up, my daughter has VERY big lips, I have huge breasts, and when I loose this weight (I just had a baby) I have a very tiny waist, and I like to wear trendy clothes. My daughter wears clothes made of glitter and satin, and so on. Does anyof the above make either of us look like hookers? I think not.

Also... if there is anybody my daughter will idolize and try to immitate, it will be me.


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## bobica (May 31, 2004)

As the mom of a going-on-3 year old, I appreciate a head's up/question about *any* gift the gifter is considering as potentially controversial. Yes, i have some control issues







but i'm comfortable with that. We all love to give gifts, especially ones that are well received & get a big reaction to. but, everyone has their own version of acceptable and not for their own homes. if i am going to stand by my decision to be a barney-free zone or whatever it may be, i will very much respect a decision of that type by someone else.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tara*
I feel compelled to add that I don't like the idea that adult women (or teen women) who want to wear skimpy clothing or makeup are considered streetwalkers and tramps.

It's not _nice_, to be sure. However, what we have here is a basic situation in which the vast majority of "streetwalkers and tramps" characteristically dress in a manner calculated to expose or accentuate their bodies' sexual characteristics. Whereas there might be the occasional streetwalker or tramp who dresses herself like this, , I have a feeling that they are not characteristic of most tramps and streetwalkers. If a woman chooses to dress in a similar manner (i.e., to expose or accentuate her body's sexual characteristics), then like it or not, the comparison will be made. It's not nice, as I said, and it's not accurate (in the sense that I am assuming the woman who dresses like a tramp or streetwalker is neither one), but that unfortunately is the reality. If I dress in black and white and snap some wings and a yellow bill on my face, I'm not going to actually _be_ a penguin, but I will tend to resemble one, KWIM?


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## oldermamato5 (Feb 4, 2005)

Those dolls irritate the he** out of me.







:


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## tara (Jan 29, 2002)

Well, Charles, you have a choice not to look at people that simplistically. Up to you. Personally, I think women have a right to express their sexuality without being called tramps and whores. A miniskirt does not a sex worker make. Besides, I have no judgement for women in the sex industry.


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## mommaduck (Sep 13, 2005)

Can't stand BRATZ. JMHO. And definately can't stand the name (I hated being called a military "BRAT" so much that I changed it to military misfit...since we just don't "fit" anywhere).

However, I REALLY liked those Groovy dolls...they were cute and not over the top.

BTW, I think it's a really good idea to discuss with the parents ahead of gift buying.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *devonc*
OK, I have not read any of the replies here but I just have to say:

It is weird as hell that their feet come off.









:


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I kinda like her Nice pants! And the only skin you can see on this one is her face, arms and neck. So clearly Bratz can be found that are dressed to more conservative tastes if that's your thing.







She's cute too

What bothers me far more than what a doll might or might not be wearing is teaching kids to call people names/assume bad things based on their attire.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tara*
Well, Charles, you have a choice not to look at people that simplistically. Up to you. Personally, I think women have a right to express their sexuality without being called tramps and whores. *A miniskirt does not a sex worker make.* Besides, I have no judgement for women in the sex industry.









Love it when people read carefully.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *charles baudelaire*
It's not nice, to be sure. However, what we have here is a basic situation in which the vast majority of "streetwalkers and tramps" characteristically dress in a manner calculated to expose or accentuate their bodies' sexual characteristics. Whereas there might be the occasional streetwalker or tramp who dresses herself like this, , I have a feeling that they are not characteristic of most tramps and streetwalkers. If a woman chooses to dress in a similar manner (i.e., to expose or accentuate her body's sexual characteristics), then like it or not, the comparison will be made. It's not nice, as I said, and *it's not accurate (in the sense that I am assuming the woman who dresses like a tramp or streetwalker is neither one),* but that unfortunately is the reality. If I dress in black and white and snap some wings and a yellow bill on my face, *I'm not going to actually be a penguin*, but I will tend to resemble one, KWIM?


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I think they are over sexed dolls and wouldn't let them in my house. I don't let my child go over to play at peoples house if they are going to be playing with dolls such as these. If I know someone has them and they really want to play I will request that they not play with them. dd knows she is not supposed and prefers to play with better toys. She doesn't understand why Brat (snotty, disrespectful, lazy)=cool.

As for the gift ask the mom. Just call and run it buy her. ASk her what she thinks and include a gift reciept just in case. If you have already sent it just mention that you didn't realize it was controversial, hadn't seen all of them, etc and didn't realize how strongly some people felt bout these dolls, hope you didn't cause any problems etc . . . It was a sweet gesture.


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## Tinas3muskateers (May 19, 2004)

All those against these dolls, How you do feel about your children listening to music? Or watching videos? What are your thoughts on your children choosing those things for themselves? Clothing? Music? Videos? etc?


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tara*
Well, Charles, you have a choice not to look at people that simplistically. Up to you. Personally, I think women have a right to express their sexuality without being called tramps and whores. A miniskirt does not a sex worker make. Besides, I have no judgement for women in the sex industry.










*applause*


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=toys]

I showed this to my dh and said, "Would you buy this doll for Ramona?" He looked at it and said, "The hooker doll? Bratz streetcorner ho?"

(And no, this was not in front of the children, they are in bed.)

Even the "cute" Bratz dolls someone listed are showing their midriffs.

OP, I would return the doll and either get a Groovy Girl or some art supplies!

Namaste!


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
*applause*

Please actually read what I said. It reflects poorly on anyone, really, when they comment upon something they have obviously either not read or have misread or are choosing to misread. I am assuming you have either chosen to misread my posts or were momentarily distracted and did not read it carefully -- the most flattering of the choices available to me.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tinas3muskateers*
All those against these dolls, How you do feel about your children listening to music? Or watching videos? What are your thoughts on your children choosing those things for themselves? Clothing? Music? Videos? etc?

My children only listen to music that lines up with our values. Same with all media - boks, movies, TV and computer (they are not allowed to play on the bratz web page). My children generally don't choose toys for themselves. They rarely have money/gift certificates. I would not allow these dolls in my house even if they paid for them themselves. But we really drive hom our values on these things and I keep educating my children until they understand why these don't line up with our values.

oh and we do not allow any hootchie clothes here either regardless of who paid for them.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tinas3muskateers*
All those against these dolls, How you do feel about your children listening to music? Or watching videos? What are your thoughts on your children choosing those things for themselves? Clothing? Music? Videos? etc?

Are you asking if I let my 2, 3 and 4 year olds (when they were that age) listen to music that said F**K in it. Of course not. Are you asking if I allowed my 6 year old to view movies that had sexual intercourse in it? Of course not. I personally do not feel comfortable subjecting my kids to things that they cannot get their mind around.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tinas3muskateers*
All those against these dolls, How you do feel about your children listening to music? Or watching videos? What are your thoughts on your children choosing those things for themselves? Clothing? Music? Videos? etc?

I think it is a crucial job of a parent to impart their values to their child. It is the child's responsibility when they are an adult to evaluate those values and choose to reject or accept them. As far as music, I shield my child -- who just turned five -- from music with violence or explicit sexual content. Fortunately, that leaves a great deal of music to explore and enjoy, and I'm glad to expose her to everything from opera to Rolling Stones. As far as videos, I think that most children's videos are utter garbage and we don't watch them. As far as other videos, I shield her from violence and explicit sexual content. And so on.

As she gets older, she will have more and more freedom to make these decisions for herself; however, it is my job as a parent to be a gatekeeper at this point for what goes into and out of my child's mind; I honestly feel it is irresponsible to do otherwise. Some people's gates may be wider than mine; others might be open to different directions, but in one way or another, many of the mothers on this board have a similar mindset: there are things they do and do not allow.


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

To me and my kids they are a doll and nothing more.

Quote:

What bothers me far more than what a doll might or might not be wearing is teaching kids to call people names/assume bad things based on their attire.
ITA


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tinas3muskateers*
All those against these dolls, How you do feel about your children listening to music? Or watching videos? What are your thoughts on your children choosing those things for themselves? Clothing? Music? Videos? etc?

My Dd is 4 years old and I would not bring Bratz into our home. She doesn't watch videos because we don't own a VCR, but she is around music with explict lyrics. As far as clothes go, she has no interest in them, yet.

I was allowed, as a child, to wear whatever I wanted, read whatever I wanted, listen to whatever music. However, when I was 4, my parents allowed me to have my innocence. They didn't go out of their way to expose me to adult issues.

There are so many great dolls out there, we choose not to have Bratz in our home. If my Dd was let's-say-8 and noticed Bratz and really wanted one, I would discuss it with her and very possibly allow her to have them, then. Until then, I'm not going to expose her to them out of the blue for no good reason.

Updated to say that I just went to the Bratz website and saw them closer up. I take back what I said about giving one to my 8 year old maybe. No, I wouldn't give them to her.


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## wahoowhippets (Dec 17, 2005)

I would never buy one of those ugly dolls for my girls or anyone else's girls either. I hate the name of them too. Yuk.


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## kimmie-pooh (Sep 2, 2003)

I haven't had a chance to read _all_ of the replies (just a few), but wanted to offer my .02 if that's okay.









Personally, I would not buy these dolls for my 7 yo dd. Not necessarily because they look like prostitutes as mentioned by a PP. Simply because they demonstrate dress of an adult woman. I am more on the conservative side when it comes to the way I dress. I don't believe that a woman needs to show a lot of skin in order to be considered beautiful. These dolls (along with society) promote sexuality too much, IMO.

My dd is tall and thin. I am already having a lot of trouble finding clothing that fits her that aren't too 'sexy' for a 7 yo. (Mid-drifts, writing on the butt, low rise pants) I don't really want to deal with the sexuality of a doll.

That's just me.

If you like the doll and you think your niece would like the doll, give it to her.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Nothing is ever *just* a doll. I agree with tara's perspective in this discussion. Bratz dolls are laden with messages about what girls and women are in this culture... messages that are culturally reinforced all over the place, and messages that I don't particularly want to reinforce with my daughter any more than will already happen.

No way would I buy her a Bratz doll.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kimmie-pooh*
Simply because they demonstrate dress of an adult woman. I am more on the conservative side when it comes to the way I dress. I don't believe that a woman needs to show a lot of skin in order to be considered beautiful. These dolls (along with society) promote sexuality too much, IMO.

My dd is tall and thin. I am already having a lot of trouble finding clothing that fits her that aren't too 'sexy' for a 7 yo. (Mid-drifts, writing on the butt, low rise pants) I don't really want to deal with the sexuality of a doll.

I agree with this! This is what I hate about these dolls, and the other My Scene Barbies too. I would much rather my dd have a regular Barbie, because at least they look adult. Not like any real adult, but not like a pre-teen either, which is what I don't like about the Bratz. They look like young, like fourteen year olds but dressed like they're looking to get laid. Even the "cute" ones.

I really hate how sexual clothes are for children and teenagers now. I really hate that if you are an adult woman, in your sexual prime, you are supposed to dress far more modestly and conservatively than a 13 year old. I really hate that if they have a TV show about SAHMs that are sexual, they have to look and dress like they're 15, otherwise no one will want to hear about their sexuality.

IMO, our society is sexually unhealthy, and sexualized toys are just another symbol of this.

BTW, I CANNOT believe they have thong panties at the Limited Too. What in the hell is the matter with a little girl having panty lines? And what little girl wants to wear a thong panty? Disgusting!


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## Tinas3muskateers (May 19, 2004)

my dd has wanted a thong since the 6th grade and I flat out refused to have them in my home. Well this year I started to find them in the laundry. She was buying them herself. If she had the extra cash on hand at the mall that is what she bought. She is just about to turn 15 now but it still freaks me out lol


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## LukesMum (Nov 20, 2001)

Wow, I m really surprised to find such controversy over this HERE. We are all entitled to our opinions....but this is a surprising thread. I would have assumed that the MDC crowd would be adamantly opposed to Bratz. Personally I am opposed for all the reasons above...luckily my 3 yr old doesn't even know wht they are! My 5 yr old does and whenver we see anything with them or Barbie he says "cover her eyes mom!: WHich I think is kinda cute. I will continue to watch this....be kind all!


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
Please actually read what I said. It reflects poorly on anyone, really, when they comment upon something they have obviously either not read or have misread or are choosing to misread. I am assuming you have either chosen to misread my posts or were momentarily distracted and did not read it carefully -- the most flattering of the choices available to me.

It reflects poorly on anyone who says the reality of it is that a woman who wears tight clothes and has big boobs and wears make-up looks like a hooker.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I showed this to my dh and said, "Would you buy this doll for Ramona?" He looked at it and said, "The hooker doll? Bratz streetcorner ho?"

(And no, this was not in front of the children, they are in bed.)

Even the "cute" Bratz dolls someone listed are showing their midriffs.

OP, I would return the doll and either get a Groovy Girl or some art supplies!

Namaste!

Apparently you didn't see these Bratz dolls, so I will repost the link:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg


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## tara (Jan 29, 2002)

Backtracking now (sorry; I was offline for a while), but... Charles: I read your post completely. And I still felt like you were giving the miniskirt=tramp perspective a whole lot of leeway and not a lot of responsibility. It is not "the reality", it is a choice to see the world that way. That's all.


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## tara (Jan 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
What bothers me far more than what a doll might or might not be wearing is teaching kids to call people names/assume bad things based on their attire.

Good point, Unschool.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

The good news is that the OP got her answer. This is a controversial issue toy that shouldn't just be generically given as a present to someone else's child.


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## angela&avery (May 30, 2002)

[QUOTE\]BTW, I CANNOT believe they have thong panties at the Limited Too. What in the hell is the matter with a little girl having panty lines? And what little girl wants to wear a thong panty? Disgusting![/QUOTE]

i have a friend who's daughter has them, apparently the DOLLS have thongs!!


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
Apparently you didn't see these Bratz dolls, so I will repost the link:

Two of the four are showing their midriffs and the third is wearing a skirt so short that if she were a real person, you'd see her underwear.

Namaste!


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## MillingNome (Nov 18, 2005)

My daughter, who has a TV, computer, Game Cube and Ipod in her room has Bratz. Did you think it was possible to go that wrong in one sentence







? She never did Barbie and in fact rarely played with dolls at all. She has always been more of a build and crash it down girl. Two years ago, she got curious about them when her friends got into them. I let her get some because she asked and was at the time 10. For reference, they do not dress like the hookers in our hood. Yes, we really have them and drug dealers and gang bangers to boot. Hookers, where we live, tend to dress pretty normal. DD thinks they are very weird and not something she would aspire to be. And yes, I told her she woouldn't get past the front, back or side door dressed like that. We talked fairly openly about the message that sends to people when they see you looking like that. When her friends were over and did all played with the Bratz, it was pretty harmless. Let's go shopping, to the park, movies type stuff. Now, they sit in a box, unused. She does not hang out with those friends either, which is partly sad since they were all such good friends. They spend too much time talking about hair, nails, boys and gossip- according to dd. I think that had I made it a big issue and not let her have the stupid things in the house, it would have made her very resentful. And no I am not afraid of making my kid angry over issues that matter. This was just not a battle I felt needed to happen. I had to trust her enough to see the doll for what it was. She did. I guess the bottom line is, as parents we make judgement calls for our kids and what we are confortable letting them have. We are the ones that have to live them and so it should be ok if the parent says so (barring cases of abuse, neglect, ect). I know I would hate if someone said I was a bad mom for letting dd or ds do ???, even though I carefully thought it through. We are all, for the most part, trying to do the best we can doing the hardest job in the world- raising healthy, balanced children.

~Peace


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I have been thinking about this some more and thinking about my daughter, who is almost 4. She currently loves the Magic Treehouse books about Jack and Annie. She has seen in the books that Annie wears pigtails, so she has told me many times to do her hair in pigtails so that she can "look like Annie." Why is it so much of a leap to think that my daughter would also want to dress like Annie? (In reality, she does, because Annie most often wears jeans and t-shirts.) In fact, when Annie travels through time, she wears clothes characteristic of the time period she is in, and my daughter gets out her play silks and and dress-up clothes and dresses up like Annie in China, Annie in the Arctic, Annie in Shakespeare's England. Why isn't it reasonable to think that a little girl who plays with Bratz would want to look like a Brat?

If I lived in a society where we all ran around in public naked, I'd be cool with my kid running around in public naked. But we live in a society that has sexualized breasts, midriffs, panties, short skirts, etc. While I don't particularly mind those styles (and indeed, my kids often play with their friends wearing just underwear), when I am out in public and around people I don't know and trust, I am not going to give them ANY chance to sexualize my daughter FOR ANY REASON.

When my daughter is old enough to make the decisions on how she dresses based on ALL the information, well, I'll step aside. But until then, I am not going to let my daughter be a tool of societal forces beyond her control and understanding.

Namaste!


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I have been thinking about this some more and thinking about my daughter, who is almost 4. She currently loves the Magic Treehouse books about Jack and Annie. She has seen in the books that Annie wears pigtails, so she has told me many times to do her hair in pigtails so that she can "look like Annie." Why is it so much of a leap to think that my daughter would also want to dress like Annie? (In reality, she does, because Annie most often wears jeans and t-shirts.) In fact, when Annie travels through time, she wears clothes characteristic of the time period she is in, and my daughter gets out her play silks and and dress-up clothes and dresses up like Annie in China, Annie in the Arctic, Annie in Shakespeare's England. Why isn't it reasonable to think that a little girl who plays with Bratz would want to look like a Brat?

I agree wholeheartedly.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I think all of those dolls in the links look over sexualizd. It is about more than how much skin is showing. it is about how tight the clothes are how they are cut what kind of makeup they are wearing, what expressions are in thier eys and on thier lips. It all sends a very clear messege. And I have no doubt that kids are equating those clothes with cool and wanting thowse clothes. It is about more than sex too. It is a whole unattractive *attitude* and the *lifestyle* thier accessories promote also go against our values. And there are lots of toys etc we won't give our children acess to. I doubt they even think twice about havnig one more toy. I prefer to protect thier innocence. nurture creative play. promote sweetness, respectful speech and kindness over bratty behavior. we value modesty in dress, movement and in our attitudes (flashy and boastful and possesion driven isn't our thing). we also value meaningful work over things like shopping and lazing about in lodges or cruising in fancy cars. So nothing about these dolls work with out family. \

. . . not to mention how long do you think it would be before we lost thier feet . . . .

If anyone is looking for a good alternative to this sort of thing that is both curte and affordable. I highly recomment the 8 inch Madeline dolls. The old ones are beter but the new ones are still better than anything else offered. They are comprable to brats in price and head size







. and have fun accessories that aren't centered around high fashion, shopping or lazing about and there is nothing sexual about them


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
It is about more than sex too. It is a whole unattractive *attitude* and the *lifestyle* thier accessories promote also go against our values.









:

Namaste!


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## MomBirthmomStepmom (May 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I have been thinking about this some more and thinking about my daughter, who is almost 4. She currently loves the Magic Treehouse books about Jack and Annie. She has seen in the books that Annie wears pigtails, so she has told me many times to do her hair in pigtails so that she can "look like Annie." Why is it so much of a leap to think that my daughter would also want to dress like Annie? (In reality, she does, because Annie most often wears jeans and t-shirts.) In fact, when Annie travels through time, she wears clothes characteristic of the time period she is in, and my daughter gets out her play silks and and dress-up clothes and dresses up like Annie in China, Annie in the Arctic, Annie in Shakespeare's England. Why isn't it reasonable to think that a little girl who plays with Bratz would want to look like a Brat?

I wanted to stay out of this, but needed to reply to this.

It's not _unreasonable_, but you have to take it on a child by child basis. My child does not, in fact, like to copy anyone, she doesn't ask or even want to dress the way anyone else does, or have her hair done how someone else's is. She's not easily impressionable at all by things like that.

One child can take a 'doll' much differently than another. I don't think it's fair at all to push your own stereotypes and thoughts (this is directed to the general 'you', not anyone in particular), on ANY other family or ANYONE else's child. You don't know them, you DON'T know the child and you CANNOT compare how your child would act/react to how another's child would/will.

Do what you want in your own home for your own family, but don't go pushing others to be just like you.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MomBirthmomStepmom*
Do what you want in your own home for your own family, but don't go pushing others to be just like you.

I think that's the point of this thread, that these sorts of things shouldn't be pushed onto kids as a gift if you don't know if they're okay with the parents.


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## mrzmeg (Jul 16, 2002)

Quote:

Nothing is ever *just* a doll.
ITA.

I dislike Bratz very strongly and do not want them to ever have a place in my home.

I have bought a (relatively modestly dressed one) one on clearance to strip and steal the clothing from (so I can give it to my Blythe)







, and FWIW, their waists are smaller than Barbie's. Way smaller.

For a fairly easily obtainable, good alternative, look into the Only Hearts Club dolls


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MomBirthmomStepmom*
One child can take a 'doll' much differently than another. I don't think it's fair at all to push your own stereotypes and thoughts (this is directed to the general 'you', not anyone in particular), on ANY other family or ANYONE else's child. You don't know them, you DON'T know the child and you CANNOT compare how your child would act/react to how another's child would/will.

I wasn't using my daughter as the final arbiter on what all little girls will or won't do, but I also don't believe that my daughter is the ONLY little girl in the world who would be influenced by a doll.

Why do these types of threads always turn into as "If your opinion is different than mine, then you are trying to make decisions for me and my family"?

I think Bratz dolls look like sluts, but frankly, I don't really care whether anyone else buys them for their kids. It's fun to talk about online but is another example of a subject that isn't all that important in real life.

Why can't we just recognize that we can all state our opinion and it's just our opinion, not our intent to try to rule what others do?

Namaste!


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## angela&avery (May 30, 2002)

I just wanted to say that while i would not at the time buy one for my 2 year old dd, and wouldnt plan on introducing something like this to my dd on purpose at any time during her childhood, my friends dd who is 10 has them. Apparently she just loves them and this little girl is a really great kid. She does not dress like that or wear makeup, she is good in school, studies ballet and is a well rounded, good, happy kid. My friend knows her daughter and that it was something that wouldnt be taken out of context. I do think that for some kids, it is just a doll. I dont think they are great, and I wouldnt buy one as a gift or for my own dd, and Im really disgusted that the dolls wear thongs................

but I just dont think I need to judge my friend or her daughter because she allows her to play with them.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*

Even the "cute" Bratz dolls someone listed are showing their midriffs.


 Well, the difference for some people is that they don't think there is a single thing wrong with showing your belly, and so a doll who is showing her's isn't a problem. My family doesn't think that the stomach must be hidden around other people any more than the elbows or ears must be. My daughter wears cropped shirts often. As far as I know she is not a "ho". lol


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
Well, the difference for some people is that they don't think there is a single thing wrong with showing your belly, and so a doll who is showing her's isn't a problem.

Ummm, yes, I know that. But it's a problem for me. The midriff thing is part of the reason I wouldn't buy a Bratz for my kid.

Like I said in my last post, why can't we state our opinions with the understanding that they are merely our opinions, not a mandate on what the rest of the world must do?

When you say, "I have no problem with the dolls, and my daughter owns several," I don't take that as "You should buy them for your daughter too," so why does "I wouldn't buy them because they are dressed inappropriately" mean, "You shouldn't buy them for your daughter?"

Namaste!


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## MomBirthmomStepmom (May 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
Why do these types of threads always turn into as "If your opinion is different than mine, then you are trying to make decisions for me and my family"?

Cause that's what it sounds like some people want to do, or are trying to do.

I can't believe people are using the terms 'sluts' and 'whores' and 'hookers' and 'streetwalkers' here... THAT is more disgusting than any doll, IMO. Seriously, we're adults, but some people on this thread are saying things that sound alot like they're coming out of the mouth of a brainless doll instead...


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## LukesMum (Nov 20, 2001)

dharmamama








:







:


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MomBirthmomStepmom*
Cause that's what it sounds like some people want to do, or are trying to do.

You honestly believe that people who post on this thread are actually trying to make decisions for your family?

Namaste!


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

I'm not afraid of my Dd learning about women's sexuality. It's a process beginning from birth, but I do find the Bratz doll to be the wrong first impression of sexuality, and a rather strong one at that. The Bratz dolls are so extremely made up, so extremely dressed up, so extreme in their features and their figures that I think it creates a strong impression.

It's like if I - a 38 year old - go to the library and read Cosmo, People, Vogue, etc., it can be rather deflating, particularly if I then go to a movie see similar images there. As an adult, there's this inner dialogue that goes on telling me that I'm fine the way I am, that leg hair is actually normal and sexy on a woman.

Well, children are learning and navigating these issues, too, and I just hope that they are able to have a broader idea of sexuality than the mainstream American view portrayed by these dolls.

When I was loading up Bratzpack.com, I received a message "Please, wait. It takes a long time to look this good." Yeah, I used to believe that and maybe part of me still does. I hope all of your kids really are more mature and balanced on this issue than I am, but when I taught Psychology of Women and Women's Studies 101, I certainly got the idea that the younger generation struggles with this issue just as much as mine.


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## PennyRoo (Dec 7, 2004)

My issue with the Bratz is all the plastic (that will inevitably end up in a landfill a few years hence), the marketing aimed at young girls, the commercialization aspect (collect 'em all! And buy the T-shirts, stickers and lunchbox, too!) that encourages us to consume, spend, and have more. I try hard to limit those influences on my DD, which involves banning TV altogether(though we do allow videos). I'm not one bit thrilled with the way they look or the messages that sends about what being feminine "requires," but that element bothers me less than the whole commercialization gig.

That said, I know many many many people whose girls collect and love them, and for whom another Bratz doll would be a welcomed delight. I would not buy one as a gift, however - JMHO. Peace, mamas.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MomBirthmomStepmom*
Cause that's what it sounds like some people want to do, or are trying to do.

I can't believe people are using the terms 'sluts' and 'whores' and 'hookers' and 'streetwalkers' here... THAT is more disgusting than any doll, IMO. Seriously, we're adults, but some people on this thread are saying things that sound alot like they're coming out of the mouth of a brainless doll instead...


*more applause*


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## lilmiss'mama (Mar 8, 2002)

So, a funny thing happened... After I posted back on pg3 about how I dislike Bratz and didn't want them for my girls, the very next day they each received a Bratz doll. My girls are 3 and 4 and for them the dolls are just plain inappropriate, IMO. I got them before the girls even knew about them and they went directly into the toys for tots box at my work. I felt bad passing along toys I wouldn't give my children, but obviously (from this thread) some people don't mind them.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

It was very cool of you to donate the dolls lilmiss'mama! Someone will be very happy to recieve them no doubt.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AndiG*
Ok, the Bratz dolls are really sort of hideous.
Their FEET come off and they put on NEW FEET when they change their shoes?????
.

That is so weird!

My boys aren't interested in Bratz dolls but I have bought one for a birthday present. (My son said that's what she like to play with)

I don't personally have a problem with them.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I have been thinking about this some more and thinking about my daughter, who is almost 4. She currently loves the Magic Treehouse books about Jack and Annie. She has seen in the books that Annie wears pigtails, so she has told me many times to do her hair in pigtails so that she can "look like Annie." Why is it so much of a leap to think that my daughter would also want to dress like Annie? (In reality, she does, because Annie most often wears jeans and t-shirts.) In fact, when Annie travels through time, she wears clothes characteristic of the time period she is in, and my daughter gets out her play silks and and dress-up clothes and dresses up like Annie in China, Annie in the Arctic, Annie in Shakespeare's England. Why isn't it reasonable to think that a little girl who plays with Bratz would want to look like a Brat?

If I lived in a society where we all ran around in public naked, I'd be cool with my kid running around in public naked. But we live in a society that has sexualized breasts, midriffs, panties, short skirts, etc. While I don't particularly mind those styles (and indeed, my kids often play with their friends wearing just underwear), when I am out in public and around people I don't know and trust, I am not going to give them ANY chance to sexualize my daughter FOR ANY REASON.

When my daughter is old enough to make the decisions on how she dresses based on ALL the information, well, I'll step aside. But until then, I am not going to let my daughter be a tool of societal forces beyond her control and understanding.

Namaste!


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## rose angel (Sep 1, 2003)

For me it is the dress, but also the consumerism that they portray, the shallow lifestyle, and values. for example I really wouldn't want my six year old playing with this:
From the Manufacturer
It's a night you're sure to never forget as you share a first date with the Bratz and Bratz Boyz as they laugh over a midnight smoothie, slow dance under a full moon, and find themselves getting closer than ever...as they walk the fine line between friendship and love. In addition to tons of stylin' accessories, this collectivle Bratz and Bratz Boyz two-pack highlights the real anticipation of a real blind date by offering a unique packaging design that hides your Bratz Boyz blind date from view, to ensure he remains a mystery until you've taken him home and opened the box. Bonus rare Collector's Edition includes a completely new Bratz Boyz character!


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## tara (Jan 29, 2002)

Yo, Charles: all that sarcasm really isn't necessary.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tara*
Yo, Charles: all that sarcasm really isn't necessary.

At this point, Tara, it's not entirely sarcastic! Seriously, with all due respect to Mrs. Moe or anyone else, I'm certainly willing to entertain, for the sake of argument, that hookers, prostitutes, hos, or professional sex workers (choose preferred term) don't dress as I described in my earlier post. However, I really _would_ like a description of how *most* prostitutes *generally* dress, because to the best of my knowledge, they dress to accentuate their sexuality. My point was that if a woman who is not a sex worker dresses in a similar manner, the comparison between the two will be made (and not necessarily by me). Mrs. Moe objects to this point, but really, I am at a loss to understand where I have been in error. That's why I'm not completely being sarcastic.

Only kinda.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rose angel*
:
From the Manufacturer
share a first date . . . as they laugh over a midnight smoothie, slow dance under a full moon, and find themselves getting closer than ever...as they walk the fine line between friendship and love. . . . blind date

eeeewwwwwwww yuck.


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## rose angel (Sep 1, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
eeeewwwwwwww yuck.









I know, and as my DH pointed out, it is from the BLIND DATE line, so these kids have never even met. Just too weird for me as a little girls' toy.


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## tara (Jan 29, 2002)

Sure, sex workers dress to accentuate their sexuality. But so do I sometimes. So do lots of people. My point is that it is not a given that the comparison will be made, and to insist that women who dress provocatively look like prostitutes seems shallow and simple to me. imo, the onus is on the viewer to think more critically, not on the scantily-clad woman to prove her virtues.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
Well, the difference for some people is that they don't think there is a single thing wrong with showing your belly, and so a doll who is showing her's isn't a problem. My family doesn't think that the stomach must be hidden around other people any more than the elbows or ears must be. My daughter wears cropped shirts often. As far as I know she is not a "ho". lol











Charles - I wear make-up, and like to wear tight clothes when I am in the physical shape to do so. So you can add me to your "hooker" sexist label if you like, but I hope you do realize how you are comming across.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

i did know some hookers in my 'party in west hollywood' years, & it's either disingenuous or extremely naive to get all huffy at a suggestion these dolls are dressed like prostitutes, because they are. that is not a dis at the whores, i have nothing against workers in the sex industry. (i used to give a friend who'd gone escort the occasional ride to work, & it is not overgeneralizing to say i recognize some of those outfits.)

if someone does not mind if their child plays with dolls dressed like whores, that is not illegal & i have no problem with that either. your child, your choice. recognizing that it may be a controversial choice (such as giving kids a toy gun) and checking first or getting something else is just being considerate.

but- they are pure fug. (that is the same problem i had with cabbage patch dolls- so much beauty in the world, why add more disposable hideousity to the landfill?) there are worlds of wonderful toys out there. i wouldn't have gotten them for my dd (we did enjoy looking at the big-headed lindsay lohan doll & having a good laugh. ooh, you guys are gonna have fun when your dds get big. grown dds are the most fun since age five. plus they can drive you home if you've had a drink.)

ps i was in the barbie aisle at walmart (i know, i know- it was just the once) tonight & saw this doll, 'tariq'. omg, he is gorgeous. i wanted to take him home (and he made such a nice couple, with barbie's beach friend, blaine.)

ok, y'all, check him out: http://www.magmaheritage.com/awardni...face1large.jpg

uh huh.


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

Some mamas pointed out links for some great dolls as alternatives to ones like Bratz and Barbie. Just wondering if anyone has ever come across a nice doll of African descent with natural hair (like an afro, dreadlocks or even braids). Most of the ones I've seen have straight hair or are not darker skinned. Thanks in advance.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

This is so crazy. I went and looked at as many Bratz dolls on-line as I could and came to the conclusion, that, yes, the only people outside of a Hollywood movie that I've seen dressed like that were prostitutes standing on street corners. I thought people were being silly saying that, but they really do look like that, which is crazy because I have been to NYC, LA, city and Vegas and Hong Kong and a bunch of other places (I'd like to see the Bratz dressed in a sari because that might clinch that region as well) and seen prostitutes dressed like that, but no one else. I'm truly amazed!

I'm not making a disparging comment about prostitutes in saying that the ones I've seen on streets look like these dolls, am I?


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## lactationmom (Aug 13, 2002)

Charles, Suseyblue you both are correct and well-spoken on this subject.

You can't make sense to a formula-feeder if you nurse. You can't make sense to a person who has guns in their home if you are against guns. You can't make sense to someone who believes in public sexuality if you have strong morals and convictions. These are not aimed at ANY person posting here, just examples (so no defensiveness, which there is some serious defensiveness here to innocent comments).

To each his own!


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## tara (Jan 29, 2002)

Sorry, lactationmom, you don't get to corner the market on 'strong morals and convictions'. I hate these dolls and wouldn't buy them, but public sexuality isn't a problem for me. What is a problem for me is someone else deciding what is moral for everyone. Not your job.


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## Annalisasmom (Jul 9, 2004)

I just don't like these dolls...even the so called "cute" ones. I don't want them in my house. If when annalisa's older and she wants one bad enough we will discuss it together but I do not like them one bit


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

i did want to expound on charles's comment about the penguin suit; i may put on a firefighter's hat, but that doesn't make me a firefighter, & yet it remains a firefighter's hat.

i am not saying everyone who puts on whore clothes is a whore; dressup is fun, & if you are having fun, go for it. i've had fun in shiny red vinyl & f-me pumps. but they are still whore clothes, whether they are on me, you, your child, bratz, lil' kim, or a literal whore. that's not a value judgement, that's acknowledging the uniform.

ps rootz, the integrity line of dolls that makes the amazing and fabulous 'tariq' has dark- skinned and natural dolls- http://www.mfd.net/store/images/larg...ll%20sheet.jpg. not saying much about the outfits, but at least you can buy her a nice respectable barbie office suit that fits.









pps when i say 'fugly', or that there is a beautiful world out there, i am not insisting on the barbie standard of beauty- i would love to see more diversity of all kinds represented, inc size. i had the biggest race & sex assortment of barbie-like dolls i could for my dd (and god knows we had the obligatory assortment of amputees.) if they looked like real people i would see the beauty in them. but bratz are disfigured monstrosities. there is no beauty to see in them, even if they *were* wearing amish clothes. this is my completely objective opinion.

pps btw, has anyone else seen their vile cartoon? feh!


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tara*
Sure, sex workers dress to accentuate their sexuality. But so do I sometimes. So do lots of people. My point is that it is not a given that the comparison will be made, and to insist that women who dress provocatively look like prostitutes seems shallow and simple to me. imo, the onus is on the viewer to think more critically, not on the scantily-clad woman to prove her virtues.

I would say it's a given depending on two major things:

1. How provocatively the woman is dressed relative to the standards of her culture or community, and

2. How strict the community or culture tends to be on women's dress & what constitutes "provocative" clothing.

Women in this culture who dress quite provocatively relative to the general standard of women's dress in this country will tend to be compared in their dress to prostitutes -- no, not by everyone, but at least by some, maybe even by many. It may not be politically correct to do; it may not be politically correct to _say_ so. In an ideal world, Tara, I would heartily agree that the onus is on the viewer to keep an open mind -- _honi soit qui mal y pense_, and all that -- but in the unfortunately un-ideal world in which we live, a woman does run the risk of being compared to (or taken for) a prostitute if she dresses provocatively relative to the culture in which she finds herself.

I think it's disingenuous -- or idealistic, at least -- to pretend otherwise or act as if it were not so in defiance of reality. That kind of PC-blindness can cause women to believe that they're safer than they are, less apt to be the victims of sexual harrassment or violence than they are. And before anyone jumps on the much-overused bandwagon screeching, "You're blaming the victim!!!" allow me to say that no, it's not the woman's "fault" if she's harrassed or victimized because of her clothing. I believe that can happen even if you're dressed in a burka. However, I believe that the risk is increased by what a person -- not _just_ a woman, FWIW -- does, wears, and goes. If a person were to walk in a neighborhood where he was not a member of a welcome group and wears clothing associated with an unwelcome group and he gets victimized, it's not his "fault," but he's increased his risk.

Whether we like it or not, our dress does say a great deal about our personalities, professions, social classes, or possession of money, even our musical tastes and ethnic heritage. On this board, the people here constantly walk a fine line between political correctness and hypocrisy where it's all well and good if you're a member of Group X (let's say) to wear clothing and attributes commonly associated with Group X as a proud emblem of your culture and values...but let anyone _dare_ associate you with Group X because of your clothes and they're racist, sexist, or just plain prejudiced.

In the final analysis, you can wear what you choose and I welcome that choice. However, no matter what you wear, people do and will make judgments about you and take actions toward you based on those judgments. Fair? No. Real? Yeah.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tara*
Sorry, lactationmom, you don't get to corner the market on 'strong morals and convictions'. I hate these dolls and wouldn't buy them, but public sexuality isn't a problem for me. What is a problem for me is someone else deciding what is moral for everyone. Not your job.

Did I miss something, Tara? Where was anyone -- Lactationmom, me, Susyblue, whoever -- "deciding what is moral for everyone"? Frankly, I think morals are decided by the community in which a person lives and are generally decided collectively -- the community's values being an aggregate of the spectrum of values available in the culture. In short, no one single person "decid[es] what is moral for everyone" in reality -- nor on this message board.


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

I believe tara's comment was in response to another poster's note that it is impossible to "make sense" to someone who believes in "public sexuality" if one has "strong morals and convictions." The logical implication from that would be that someone who "believes in public sexuality" lacks "strong morals and convictions" and that these are objectively determinable for everyone.

Just an interjection.

You all could stop sometime, though - I'm guessing the poor OP got her answer and will either (a) return the freakin' doll already because she never wants to have to deal with this again or (b) feel mighty thankful that the people she knows in real life don't get quite all het up about stuff the way people here seem to.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammastar2*
feel mighty thankful that the people she knows in real life don't get quite all het up about stuff the way people here seem to.

I doubt most of us get all "het up" (never heard that! I like it!) either. There's a big difference between how we discuss and debate our opinions here and what we actually do and talk about in our non-computer lives.

I know I have never had a heated discussion about Bratz doll IRL!

Namaste!


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I doubt most of us get all "het up" (never heard that! I like it!) either. There's a big difference between how we discuss and debate our opinions here and what we actually do and talk about in our non-computer lives.

I know I have never had a heated discussion about Bratz doll IRL!

Namaste!

...oh, I don't know...just the other day, I football-tackled a mom at toys-r-us who was on her way to the checkout with a Bratz doll for her kid! She's being de-programmed at a compound run by more enlightened parents as we speak.

Okay, now I'm being silly.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
I find this thread *highly offensive* against women's rights, mostly due to the comments of a MAN who has yet to acknowledge women as an EQUAL. Slut and whore is such a SEXIST term. As if women don't have the rights to sexuality versus a MAN.









Oh, Mrs. Moe, caught in your own hypocrisy about assumptions and outward appearances.

Guess what, hon? I, "Charles Baudelaire," have a vagina. Always have had, too. So much for your much-vaunted ideas about not judging based on outward appearances. This is really very funny!

Quote:

I'm walking away, because I have had ENOUGH of people like YOU ALL, this forum is whacked. I've never met a more judgemental group of people in my entire LIFE.
Isn't that...ummmm...a little judgmental of you?


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## Wolfmeis (Nov 16, 2004)

Maybe you should be ashamed that you are getting crazed and angry about an online discussion about VINYL DOLLS. This doll is the product of a multi-national corporation, run by a very misogynistic man (look it up), and is mass-marketed to "7-13 yos."

Whether you personally identify with one of these dolls (ew), my objection to them is that they are aimed--branded-- at very young girls. ANYTHING done this way, from My Little Ponies to Strawberry Shortcake, is under fire from me.

I will dress as attractively as I want, and I wear make up as well. I have a rack to envy and I LIKE IT. When I am trim, I can be quite smokin' ; that does not mean I want my small daughter doing that. There is a difference between the CHILD and the WOMAN. These dolls not only blur but completely OBLITERATE that line. Did READ the package inserts posted here? they could be wearing PRAIRIE GEAR and I would still object to this line of dolls. It goes far beyond mere appearances.

It's not just judgmental-- it's discerning. I don't mindlessly buy crap off the shelf because "oh that's cute." Marketing is a mega million dollar business for a REASON, and it is your job as a parent to screen this stuff for your children.


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## tara (Jan 29, 2002)

Ugh. I'm about done with this thread. This horse has been beaten post-mortem, and I'm ready to agree to disagree. I don't really think our opinions are that divergent, Charles. I also don't think I'm 'pc-blind', I just feel a personal responsibility to look beyond appearances and I don't think that's an outrageous request to ask of others (whereas you seem comfortable with the fact that judgement occurs, even unfairly. Correct me if I'm wrong.). And the assumption of skimpy clothing=sex worker is based in some puritanical and controlling views of female sexuality, imho. You can love strutting your stuff without selling it.

Just wanted to add something. There was an ad a while back in the Seattle newpaper 'Real Change' (a weekly put out by the homeless community, sold by homeless folks to generate income). It pictured a Seattle councilperson and a homeless person who had switched clothing, with a caption something like, "Which one is homeless?" It was an eye-opener. You realize that a councilperson dressed in rags would get thrown out of restaurants, would get harrassed on the street... And putting a homeless person in a suit just might get him a job interview. How is this ok? How is this not something to fight? I know that I just reinforced your position that judgement happens. I guess I'm not arguing whether judgement happens, I'm arguing that just saying it's 'real' feels like a statement of acceptance, like it's just human nature. Right or wrong, it's going to happen. Well, when it comes to misogyny, I can't stop there.

Also, there is the finest of fine lines between blaming a victim of sexual assault and saying she 'increased her risk'. Doesn't that imply at least a bit of collusion in her assault? I don't like it. But, call me pc-blind.

Finally, I will state again that these dolls drive me batty. I wouldn't buy them for anyone, in part because they seem to promote a very mainstream view of female sexuality (that may or may not be appropriate for very young girls). But, I can't hop on board the modesty train. I don't like the leap from this train of thought to 'I don't want my girl to think it's ok to dress like a whore'. That is all.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tara*

Finally, I will state again that these dolls drive me batty. I wouldn't buy them for anyone, in part because they seem to promote a very mainstream view of female sexuality (that may or may not be appropriate for very young girls). But, I can't hop on board the modesty train. I don't like the leap from this train of thought to 'I don't want my girl to think it's ok to dress like a whore'. That is all.

I think I see a point at which we can meet. I find the mainstream view of sexuality to be very demeaning to women because I think it encourages women to view _themselves_ primarily (or even exclusively) as sexual objects, which is the ultimate misogyny: in that viewpoint, all women are p***ies with a pulse. To have this viewpoint hammered into the heads of women from the time they're seven or so seems to be a vicious collusion between misogyny and its close friend, marketing.


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## Wolfmeis (Nov 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
I think I see a point at which we can meet. I find the mainstream view of sexuality to be very demeaning to women because I think it encourages women to view _themselves_ primarily (or even exclusively) as sexual objects, which is the ultimate misogyny: in that viewpoint, all women are p***ies with a pulse. To have this viewpoint hammered into the heads of women from the time they're seven or so seems to be a vicious collusion between misogyny and its close friend, marketing.


BADABING!


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## tara (Jan 29, 2002)

Yup, we're in agreement on that point. Whew!


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Ok so what your saying . . .

is that some people really have strong feelings about this doll . . . .

and perhaps before giving them as a gift you might want to run it past the parents? cool. got it. thanks for the input.


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## Wolfmeis (Nov 16, 2004)




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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tara*
Ugh. I'm about done with this thread. This horse has been beaten post-mortem, and I'm ready to agree to disagree. I don't really think our opinions are that divergent, Charles. I also don't think I'm 'pc-blind', I just feel a personal responsibility to look beyond appearances and I don't think that's an outrageous request to ask of others (whereas you seem comfortable with the fact that judgement occurs, even unfairly. Correct me if I'm wrong.). And the assumption of skimpy clothing=sex worker is based in some puritanical and controlling views of female sexuality, imho. You can love strutting your stuff without selling it.

I agree with this, tara. But in that case, I think these dolls should be sold at nightclubs and sex shops, not to little girls. You can strut your stuff, give it away, sell it, whatever you want, if you are an adult. If you are in the 7-13 y.o. demographic, IMO, you should not really even know what "your stuff" is, at least not in more than an abstract way. And I think little girls wearing such provacative clothes without really knowing why one would want to be provacative is, sadly, very dangerous, in part because it normalizes an association of little girls and sex.


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## Teensy (Feb 22, 2002)

I was invited to a gag gift party last week. For my gag gift, I bought one of the Steppin' Out Bratz dolls (Yasmin) and made up new packaging for it with the label "Happy Hooker Doll". On the back I put a bunch of hooker quotes (from movies, etc.) and cut-and-pasted pictures of other Bratz products (for example a picture of the Bratz convertible with the words "Pimpmobile - Pimp sold separately"). The doll, with her mesh see-through top and micro-mini skirt with very high heels, looked every bit as much as a doll designed to look like a hooker could have.

I had a blast making the gag gift packaging.

I will not be buying these dolls for my DD and hope no one else does.


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## lactationmom (Aug 13, 2002)




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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

i have to say, reading about ms c.b.'s ostensible penis gave me the biggest laugh i've had all day.









chauvinist! (shaking fist)


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

*talking to myself, probably* As I've said before, I have no problem with women's sexuality, what I do have a problem with is this very narrow, unrealistic, twisted image of sexuality. The more I look at these dolls, the more inappropriate for children they appear. They do look like the prostitutes I've seen on the streets of major cities, and while I am not trying to put women down who are in the "sex" industry, I don't want my small daughter playing with dolls that look like they work in the sex industry. I'd rather she play with dolls that look like ordinary people/kids.

And, btw, Charles B. is a woman.


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Ok, first off, about CB being a man...







:

*ahem* ok, I'll continue here.

I see no problems with the bratz dolls, but I wouldn't buy them for other children just as I wouldn't buy other "brand" things like that because they kid may not like them. I'm totally with Unschoolinma on this. I don't really like the bratz dolls, they skeeve me out. BUT, if dd wants one, she can have one.







:


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

I've removed a few posts that were personally pointed and inappropriate and also removed a few quotes of now removed posts. Let's please keep the discussion civil. Thanks!


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
Since a pervious poster seemed to dig around to find a Bratz doll with black boots and a short black skirt







here are some super cute Bratz dolls:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

And like I said, the ones my daughter has, the clothes are perfectly "acceptable." But IMO, my family isnt' Amish, and therefore, clothes are clothes, and when she is a teenager and she wears a short skirt and some lipstick, I'm not going to wig out on her and call her a hooker either.


LOL! I had *no* idea there was a Bowling Bratz. How funny!

I have never seen my children negatively affected by any toys they have owned. I might not like the look of some, but I've never seen any 'bad behaviors' or anything. My girls don't like dolls at all, but I also don't throw away or forbid toys. I think tossing toys kids like, and/or forbidding things isn't helpful to healthy growth where kids can trust themselves, even if some of their toys don't meet certain parental expectations. Why make a kid feel bad about a *toy*?? I think these sorts of parental powe plays can lead to sneaky behavior, and more sadly, emotional distance between children and parents.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

mrs moe: when she is a teenager and she wears a short skirt and some lipstick, I'm not going to wig out on her and call her a hooker either.

that's nice, very good of you.

but, um, are you implying that those of us who think those are some tacky-ass hooker clothes would do that? i managed to get through an the entire teenhood of a my dd without 'calling her a hooker'. (and no, we are not amish, & my dd dresses quite fashionably.) i think the 'wigging out' comment is kind of rich, as those of us who think those look like tacky-ass hooker clothes are staying considerably calmer than the opposition.

part of this is semantics, i'll wager- i am not thinking, 'whore!' as in an insult, but 'whore' as in job description. some people *do* do this for a living, and it is kind of negating their life experiences to just act as if they were merely a term of opprobium without further meaning.

whores are people: raise children, go out to eat, go to school, cry when they are sad, laugh when they are happy. and yes, put on the uniform where it is appropriate. whores can wear prada if they can afford it and it is practical for their place of business, & it still won't be whore clothing. elementary school teachers can wear pleather minis, & they will be elementary school teachers wearing street hooker wear.

you are confusing an accurate description of clothing, in language everyone understands, with judgement of actual living women. can you separate the clothes from the person wearing them? calling your daughter a hooker as an insult (!) is radically different in my ears than saying 'that is one trashy looking pair of silver lame hot pants on that ho-lookin' bratz doll', lol.

if you are concerned about those unsubtle enough to get the difference, do you think making it unpc for us to describe certain clothes out loud will fix their mind-set that women wearing such clothes are necessarily rapable women, women no one will care about? a world full of various branches of fundamentalists who would beat me with sticks for wearing some of the dresses i have worn out dancing, and you are worried that a few mamas on mdc are damaging the cause of women's rights? really, lighten up. we are not the taliban (or jerry falwell







). and we do not call our daughters names no matter what they are wearing.


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Do you think the horses look like sluts? 'Cuz we just bought one as a gift.

WITHOUT EVEN ASKING


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

what's it wearing?


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Just a saddle and a bridle







: Shocking!


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## oldcrunchymom (Jun 26, 2002)

Okay, well apparently everyone didn't receive my telepathic "no more Barbies" memo this year because my daughter received a Bratz tennis doll, a Bratz baby, and a My Scene Barbie. I have to say, the Bratz are fugly, but on a scale of Ho-osity they can't hold a candle to the My Scene Barbie. In fact, my brother and aunt spent about half an hour on Christmas making up a history and dialog for "Ho Barbie." Ah, these special family times warm the heart.

My daughter likes all of them and put them in the "Barbie drawer" where all her other dolls are stacked like cordwood in a tableau reminiscent of a Peter Greenaway outtake. She seems oblivious to the blonde glittery fugliness.

P.S. Does anyone know how many Barbies can congregate in a small enclosed space without having to report it to insurance?


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lckrause*

P.S. Does anyone know how many Barbies can congregate in a small enclosed space without having to report it to insurance?











Sounds like you'll need a variance... i doubt you have enough bathrooms.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lckrause*
In fact, my brother and aunt spent about half an hour on Christmas making up a history and dialog for "Ho Barbie." Ah, these special family times warm the heart.









:

ahhhh this is what the holidays are all about. it warms my heart it does.


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