# s/o No consequences AT ALL?



## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

I was just reading through an old thread someone linked to, and was very interested that one poster was arguing against any consequences for a child's actions. Someone used the example of throwing a cup down repeatedly and the parent putting it on the bench, and a couple of others, and the other person said

Quote:

Using the above tactics, you would be undermining your child's trust in you. The above examples do nothing to foster/continue an attachment relationship with your child.

...

You don't get to these points when you have a consensual relationship with your child. I've never used a consequence -- in 6 years. I have lovely child. I don't use gentle coercion.
Huh? Can someone who follows this viewpoint explain how it works for me? They were arguing against very gentle, reasonable natural consequences for the child's actions, not the weird cruel L&L stuff. Is this poster claiming that you can raise nice people who function in the world and are caring and pleasant to know with absolutely nothing bar modelling? I'd thought there was nothing more simple and gentle than natural consequences.

Is this the sort of person who follows the child around asaying ineffectually "John, we don't d that, please stop, John, you're ripping the book" while the child ignores them?

An example for a talking point (I know these aren't strictly _natural_ consequences): when my two year old stands up in the bath, that means bath time is over. when she stands we say "oh, OK, all done, let me get your towel", and if she's not done she quickly sits again. A couple of times when she first went in the big bath I did take her out before she was ready because she was standing, and she was upset. How would you handle this differently?

Another example - standing on the kitchen table (she's fallen a couple of times, so it's not OK) gets a request to hop down, maybe twice, then I lift her off the table and onto the floor. If she gets upset I remind her that standing on the table doesn't get hugs, saying "mummy, I need a hug" gets you hugs (and I always follow through when she asks for a hug or asks for attention, in order to reinforce this). How would you handle this differently?


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:

An example for a talking point (I know these aren't strictly natural consequences): when my two year old stands up in the bath, that means bath time is over. when she stands we say "oh, OK, all done, let me get your towel", and if she's not done she quickly sits again. A couple of times when she first went in the big bath I did take her out before she was ready because she was standing, and she was upset. How would you handle this differently?

Another example - standing on the kitchen table (she's fallen a couple of times, so it's not OK) gets a request to hop down, maybe twice, then I lift her off the table and onto the floor. If she gets upset I remind her that standing on the table doesn't get hugs, saying "mummy, I need a hug" gets you hugs (and I always follow through when she asks for a hug or asks for attention, in order to reinforce this). How would you handle this differently?
We've had both of these situations arise here and with both of them, I would "spot" ds while he did it. Standing on the table, or standing in the bath, I would stand next to him, or hold his hands, (he liked to hold hands and jump from the table,) until he was finished. He was exploring, learning about limits and his abilities. Neither situation lasted long. A few weeks at the most. For me, it is much better to help him in his explorations than to get into a power struggle, (something I refuse to do.)

I must add though that at 2 years old, I would tell him that he should be careful on the table because he might fall, then let him decide. If he ends up falling, well okay. I am perfectly comfortable telling ds that he could get hurt, then letting him get hurt if he so chooses. (I don't mean if you're concerned about serious head injury or something, but otherwise.)


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Wrt your first example and the posters response...if a child keeps throwing down a cup and the parent takes it away, it certainly stops the child from doing it, but it does nothing to address the child's needs at that moment. WHY is the child repeatedly throwing the cup down?


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

i honestly don't mean this to come across snarky...so please forgive me if it reads that way.....but don't other posters have house rules? am i the only one? if my kids jump on the furniture, or stand on a table, or throw a cup....they are not following our rules to respect our things. i don't ask my 3 year old if he wants to get off the table, because he isn't allowed on it to begin with. it's not a choice for him, yk? if he threw a cup, that would be unacceptable behavior, because we don't throw cups in our home.

is this post just referring to 1 or 2 year olds? i'm sorry, i'm just trying to understand?? thanks!


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
...but don't other posters have house rules? am i the only one?











We have house rules here -- you're not the only one!

GD spans a broad spectrum of parenting philosophies -- I think this thread is asking for the opinion of the Unconditional Parenting/Consensual Living/Taking Children Seriously folks.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

The only real rule we have is that nobody in our house hits anybody else.

I love Unconditional Parenting, and I've read about Taking Children Seriously but I'm not there. I'm not into rules but I look at any given circumstance and try to judge it on its own merits. I never minded if my daughter climbed on the coffee table because the floor is carpeted and two feet away. I didn't want her on the kitchen table because it's a longer drop and a hard floor. So I would just pick her up and set her on the ground repeatedly. I don't remember what I said as I did it but I'm sure I said something.

I remember when she would stand in the tub and wasn't steady enough that I wasn't sure she wouldn't fall and get hurt. I think I'd just say, "We sit in the tub" or something and help her sit again. I might have held her under her arms so she could stand a bit some of the time - I don't remember. I didn't end her bath over that though. I was right there anyway so it wasn't that big a deal to just hold her up and then help her sit down again.

But if you google Taking Children Seriously or Consensual Living you can read more about it. I do like to read about it because it gives me ideas about how to handle things, but I'm not willing to give 100% to the underlying theory - that it is possible to live completely consensually and everyone can always have their way. It seems to me like there are things that come up that seem to require some level of coercion. I try to limit coercion as much as I can but I don't see how it can be eliminated. Mainly safety things, but also sometimes we really just need to get groceries or leave the park or whatever. I stay longer at fun places and put off shopping till daddy gets home if I can, and I try to deal with it as gently as possible, but life isn't always perfect.


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
GD spans a broad spectrum of parenting philosophies -- I think this thread is asking for the opinion of the Unconditional Parenting/Consensual Living/Taking Children Seriously folks.

yes, but I didn't know the name of the philosophy, thank you! I'll be able to google a bit now. I don't think it's me, but different views are always interesting.

My example is of my daughter who's just 2, but of course I'm interested in how people work it with older children.

I'd also be interested to hear how it translates for older kids going to school or organised activities or even on playdates and interacting with other kids.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I've been basically TCS since my daughter was very small, and she's 14 now. She doesn't go to school, although she's been in plenty of organized activities and she's never had any problems with them - she chooses to go to them, and she can always leave if she's not happy with how things are done (I can think of only a few times when she has... one gymnastics class when she was 6 or so, for example, when the teacher was making a girl walk backwards on the balance beam even though the girl was sobbing and asking to please get down).

She did a lot of community and professional theatre from ages 9 to 12, and did a lovely job with it - very professional, no "drama". Again, it was her choice. Today she's an incredible teen, "14 going on 22" according to one of my friends (because she's really mature and also reliable, for stuff like babysitting and pet-sitting) but with friends her own age as well... she enjoys hanging out with them, but gets bored sometimes when the talk shifts to cattiness and snarking about other girls.

TCS incorporates the idea of discussing things with your child, as well as "no consequences", which I think is an important point. It's also about problem-solving - for example, when Rain was a toddler and stood in the bathtub, I got a bathmat, and I sometimes put a towel down on the bottom of the tub, and I got a sponge cover for the faucet, and often I bathed with her. There was a period when she hated to lay down for anything, so she ate standing, got changed standing, bathed standing... but it passed.

Dar


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I try to avoid adult-enforced consequences whenever I can.

And house rules? Eh.... I try to avoid "rules" as such...

-Angela


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac* 
but it does nothing to address the child's needs at that moment. WHY is the child repeatedly throwing the cup down?

Sometimes we all get in moods and feel like throwing something.







: Seriously, though, what do you do when the child is throwing said cup at another child, or passerby in a store or something along those lines? Basically, what about safety issues, things of that nature? And how do you handle it if your dc wants to stand on a table in the middle of a restaurant because he feels like testing his jumping abilities? I know this sounds snarky, it's not meant to be, I really am just trying to wrap my head around this.









For instance, my ds loves to run away from me at any given chance. Is there a better way to handle it without using coercion? Basically, right now I just chase him and then hold him in my lap until he is screeching at the top of his lungs, set him back down, and repeat.







:


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Yep, we have rules. Anything that compromises safety, harms other people or animals, wrecks our stuff or wastes our stuff, or just generally stresses mama out for a valid reason is off limits.

I think some of the GD stuff with no consequences is really off the wall, and not in a good way. I have my theories about what it is about, or at least what the risks may be:

- Privileged lifestyles lead to over-coddling and precious-ification of children. I don't think this is good.

- An over-reaction to the harsh, distanced, unattached and shame/approval based parenting strategies of recent generations.

- I think as women we are raised to be wishy washy and non-assertive (which can quickly become passive aggressive), and to not count ourselves as human beings in the equation in our relationship with others. I think this gets translated into a parenting style, or at least it can.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 

An example for a talking point (I know these aren't strictly _natural_ consequences): when my two year old stands up in the bath, that means bath time is over. when she stands we say "oh, OK, all done, let me get your towel", and if she's not done she quickly sits again. A couple of times when she first went in the big bath I did take her out before she was ready because she was standing, and she was upset. How would you handle this differently?

Another example - standing on the kitchen table (she's fallen a couple of times, so it's not OK) gets a request to hop down, maybe twice, then I lift her off the table and onto the floor. If she gets upset I remind her that standing on the table doesn't get hugs, saying "mummy, I need a hug" gets you hugs (and I always follow through when she asks for a hug or asks for attention, in order to reinforce this). How would you handle this differently?

I have things that are not okay and I am not anti consequence, but I let my kids do these two things.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac* 
Wrt your first example and the posters response...if a child keeps throwing down a cup and the parent takes it away, it certainly stops the child from doing it, but it does nothing to address the child's needs at that moment. WHY is the child repeatedly throwing the cup down?

May be because it is fun and entertaining to watch mommy pick it up over and over. May be mommy is now tired of the game, so it is time to find something else to do. May be there are lots of other things the baby would find fun that wouldn't annoy mommy, and the cup-dropping-game doesn't mean a thing.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *L&IsMama* 
For instance, my ds loves to run away from me at any given chance. Is there a better way to handle it without using coercion? Basically, right now I just chase him and then hold him in my lap until he is screeching at the top of his lungs, set him back down, and repeat.







:

I've read lots of stuff on non-coersion and tried it totally for awhile. It drove me bonkers and we ditched it. My kids have more freedom than any kids their ages that I know IRL, but I can and do draw a line when I need to. I really don't need to draw that line often because working toward creative solutions works most of the time.

With the running away example, I would try to spend as much time as possible in places where he can run and run without running away (such as a playground with a fence around it, or a toddler area at a children's museum, etc) and avoid places where he is in danger when he takes off. This is just a temporary phase. He will out grow it. In the mean time, you will both be happier in places where he can safely explore.


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Yep, we have rules. Anything that compromises safety, harms other people or animals, wrecks our stuff or wastes our stuff, or just generally stresses mama out for a valid reason is off limits.

I think some of the GD stuff with no consequences is really off the wall, and not in a good way. I have my theories about what it is about, or at least what the risks may be:

- Privileged lifestyles lead to over-coddling and precious-ification of children. I don't think this is good.

- An over-reaction to the harsh, distanced, unattached and shame/approval based parenting strategies of recent generations.

- I think as women we are raised to be wishy washy and non-assertive (which can quickly become passive aggressive), and to not count ourselves as human beings in the equation in our relationship with others. I think this gets translated into a parenting style, or at least it can.









:

I agree with all of this. Nicely put, Thismama.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 
Is this poster claiming that you can raise nice people who function in the world and are caring and pleasant to know with absolutely nothing bar modelling?

I can't speak for that other poster, but in my house, parenting involves a lot more than just modeling. I don't do punishments, but we do discuss, guide, problem-solve, and co-operate. I have four children, ages 14, 12, 10, and 2.5, and they are absolutely "nice people who function in the world and are caring and pleasant to know."

Quote:

Another example - standing on the kitchen table (she's fallen a couple of times, so it's not OK) gets a request to hop down, maybe twice, then I lift her off the table and onto the floor. If she gets upset I remind her that standing on the table doesn't get hugs, saying "mummy, I need a hug" gets you hugs (and I always follow through when she asks for a hug or asks for attention, in order to reinforce this). How would you handle this differently?
Kids quickly outgrow the desire to climb on the table. It's not something I'd be inclined to worry about. If it were, I'd explain my reasoning--"feet on the table makes it so dirty! If you want to climb, let's go outside."

I would not tie affection with behavior.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolalola* 







:

I agree with all of this. Nicely put, Thismama.

Whew!! Thank you.









Usually saying that kind of thing earns me some







and no love. Can you imagine that? No love at all!


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Whew!! Thank you.









Usually saying that kind of thing earns me some







and no love. Can you imagine that? No love at all!

No, I can't imagine







Nothing but love here


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I'll take it! And soak it in.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
- Privileged lifestyles lead to over-coddling and precious-ification of children. I don't think this is good.

- An over-reaction to the harsh, distanced, unattached and shame/approval based parenting strategies of recent generations.

- I think as women we are raised to be wishy washy and non-assertive (which can quickly become passive aggressive), and to not count ourselves as human beings in the equation in our relationship with others. I think this gets translated into a parenting style, or at least it can.

I'm just going to say I disagree.


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 







I'll take it! And soak it in.

Good! You should. It's allllllll good.


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

FWIW, the non-coersion approach is very interesting to me. However, I can't seem to figure out how, in practice, CL is any more than manipulating others into thinking that what "I" want, is what "they" want. kwim?


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolalola* 
FWIW, the non-coersion approach is very interesting to me. However, I can't seem to figure out how, in practice, CL is any more than manipulating others into thinking that what "I" want, is what "they" want. kwim?

Yep. Or, OTOH, minimizing and negating what you/I want.

Mine doesn't have the empathy or the concept of give and take yet. She can't prioritize, or understand enough about the world to aim for consensuality IMO.

I remember posting once that she wouldn't get on her shoes to go out, wanted to watch TV, which she had already been doing for hours, instead of going to playgroup to see all *our* friends. CLers told me playgroup isn't important, that if everyone doesn't want to go it won't be fun anyway. That I should just let her sit home and watch TV. Social commitments don't matter, people should understand if I break 'em coz the 3 year old was watching tele.

Well, what I know is she doesn't conceptualize time like I do. So at 10pm she would be crying about why can't we go to her friends' house now. Kwim? And, *I* wanted to go. She couldn't get that, and really consider it in an empathic way. Or that others were expecting us and would be inconvenienced.

Doesn't make sense to me.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

okay, i understand better now. thanks everyone. i suppose GD is like homeschooling in a way....there are structured homeschoolers and radical unschoolers and everything in between.


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Yep. Or, OTOH, minimizing and negating what you/I want.

Mine doesn't have the empathy or the concept of give and take yet. She can't prioritize, or understand enough about the world to aim for consensuality IMO.

I remember posting once that she wouldn't get on her shoes to go out, wanted to watch TV, which she had already been doing for hours, instead of going to playgroup to see all *our* friends. *CLers told me playgroup isn't important, that if everyone doesn't want to go it won't be fun anyway. That I should just let her sit home and watch TV. Social commitments don't matter, people should understand if I break 'em coz the 3 year old was watching tele.*

Well, what I know is she doesn't conceptualize time like I do. So at 10pm she would be crying about why can't we go to her friends' house now. Kwim? And, *I* wanted to go. She couldn't get that, and really consider it in an empathic way. Or that others were expecting us and would be inconvenienced.

Doesn't make sense to me.









Yeah. This doesn't sit well with me either.

I can't, in good conscience, raise my kiddos to think that "they" are in complete control over every circumstance. I just don't live in the kind of world that mirrors this.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolalola* 
FWIW, the non-coersion approach is very interesting to me. However, I can't seem to figure out how, in practice, CL is any more than manipulating others into thinking that what "I" want, is what "they" want. kwim?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Yep. Or, OTOH, minimizing and negating what you/I want.

I'm definitely not trying to manipulate my kids, nor am I disregarding my needs.

For example, last night:

Me to 5 yr. old: Alright buddy, I'm done. You ready to go up and go to bed?

Him: Not yet. I want to watch Spy Kids.

Me: OK. But, I'm ready for bed. Do you want to just stay down here and I'll get it set up for you?

Him: No, can't you stay up with me?

Me: No, I'm beat--I've gotta get to bed.

Him: What if I bring the little TV (portable DVD player) up and watch it up there?

Me: Perfect. Let's go.

So up we go--me to sleep, him to watch the movie on the end of the bed. And I did ask him to turn it down, and he obliged. My need for sleep met. His need to watch a movie with people around met.

When they're smaller (or if you're moving from a more authoritarian paradigm) the give-and-take is definitely not as even. Sort of like the bfing relationship--when they were babies, my need for sleep was sacrificed for their needs to nurse at 3 am.

But as they got older, my needs started to come into play a lot more and it wasn't so "one-sided" ("Hang on, let's wait 'til we get to the car to nurse." Or, "When I'm done eating you can have milk."). So many moms who are nursing wee babies think that nursing a toddler or older is the equivelent of nursing a 3 mo. old for the next 4 yrs. And it's not, you know? Nursing a 1 yr. old is different from nursing a 3 mo. old, and is different from nursing a 5 yr. old. In the same way, reaching consensus with a two yr. old is very different than trying to do it with a five yr. old or ten yr. old or teen.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

OKay, but what about if that were my child and myself where I cannot sleep with any tv, light, or noise in the room? What would be a CL way to handle that?


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Well, the "CL way" would be to find something that works for both of you.









So, maybe it would be that your kid would be OK with lots of lights left on downstairs.

Or the dog left in the den with him.

Or setting up a blanket and pillow with the tv in the hallway outside your room.

Or watching Spy Kids first thing in the morning.

Or you deciding that you could probably surf MDC for another 30 minutes and stay up with him that long.

Or you could lay on the couch and read for a bit and take a nap tomorrow.

I don't know exactly, obviously. But just trying to find something that works. There are so many possibilities!


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Well in that situation, I would just stay up until the movie or show was over, so that wasn't the best example.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

One of the big models of non-coersive parenting (uh... she changed her username. where are you, Pat?) is not what I would call wishy washy AT ALL.

I don't do non-coercive parenting - to be honest, I just don't have the tools and strength a lot of times. However, I do think a lot of the ideas are applicable to everyone - for instance, problem solving. I'm really shocked at how my 3 year old can do problem solving! He had some toys in the middle of the floor and I started to move them and he got mad (I kinda approached it wrong, but that's another story). So I told him that when toys were in the middle of the floor, I was afraid we would trip and fall or hurt our feet. We talked through it and he actually came up with a few different solutions.

The surprising thing, he is always coming up with solutions that do work, which I would NEVER have thought of!

I am a single mama and I do have house rules that keep me sane during this time in my life. And, I mainly use the "bark orders" style of parenting (ha ha) which means I tell my DS what I need him to do and why and I expect him to do those things (and he generally does).

However, I do think if you have the emotional strength and time to change YOURSELF and how you parent (collective you) enough to employ these strategies more often, it could really acomplish some great things. I think it's very hard for us to overcome the way we were raised, and the way our culture thinks, THAT much, in order to really parent in a non-coersive way.

As for whether TOTAL non-coersive parenting works, I never tried it so I'm not sure. But I do think a lot of the ideas have a lot of merit.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I don't impose consequences on my kids (3 and 6). I am far from a perfect person and I get tired and stupid like everyone else. So do my kids, although honestly less often than I do. Dp is a nearly perfect person so if we've bugged her, she's either getting sick or we're being complete idiots.

I do lots of stuff to make sure that peace. love and harmony reign in our house. Feed 'em, buy 'em comfortable clothes and shoes, let them know when something out of the ordinary is going to happen, don't have food in the house that they can't eat... Talk to them. Empathize with them. Ignore all the voices that say that they will be completely unable to handle life *since they are already doing a great job handling life*.

And it really does work. Better and better as they get more into childhood and out of toddlerhood.

Child development is a back and forth process so we focus on enjoying the leaps and regressions.

Both dp and I work. We homeschool. We nurse. We co-sleep. We have a highly sensitive allergic child. We use very very minimal child care because it didn't work for our older child when she was a toddler. And I'm on the downhill side of 40 sliding rapidly toward 50.

It's exhausting and messy. It's all the good stuff of life smushed into every week. It's also fun and wonderful. It's intimate and joyful.

I'm completely familiar with nearly every system of behavior modification discussed on these boards. My mom has a PhD in them (literally). They may have a place in some (and only some) therapeutic settings with very specific populations, but I will not bring them into my home or my life.

My children's behavior is a reflection of their inner lives. I am interested in getting to know them better every day. The more I focus on how they feel instead of how they act, the more peace love and harmony reign.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *L&IsMama*
Sometimes we all get in moods and feel like throwing something. Seriously, though, what do you do when the child is throwing said cup at another child, or passerby in a store or something along those lines? Basically, what about safety issues, things of that nature? And how do you handle it if your dc wants to stand on a table in the middle of a restaurant because he feels like testing his jumping abilities? I know this sounds snarky, it's not meant to be, I really am just trying to wrap my head around this.

For instance, my ds loves to run away from me at any given chance. Is there a better way to handle it without using coercion? Basically, right now I just chase him and then hold him in my lap until he is screeching at the top of his lungs, set him back down, and repeat.

Well, yesterday when my 3 yo ds ws beating his 5 yo cousin over the head with a stick and wouldn't stop, I walked over and spoke with him about it. The conversation went something like this:

Me: You really hurt J. I'd like you to put down the stick.

Ds: I won't do it again.

Me: okay. You can't hit people with sticks. It hurts them.

Ds: But I want to hit people with sticks. I like to. It's fun.

Me: I understand that, but it hurt J. If you want to hit something hit a tree.

This was okay for a while, but the stick swinging was getting a little intense, and I didn't want a repeat, so I picked a big fern leaf and asked ds if he would trade me for the stick, because he could use the big leaf to swish the bugs away. Problem solved. No consequences. A more in-depth discussion later about the situation and why we don't hit people with sticks. He apologized to his cousin on his own when we were done our walk.

Creativity goes a long way. And I must add that parenting without imposing consequences requires one to BELIEVE that the child does not have bad intentions, and that there is always a solution.


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac* 
This was okay for a while, but the stick swinging was getting a little intense, and I didn't want a repeat, so I picked a big fern leaf and asked ds if he would trade me for the stick, because he could use the big leaf to swish the bugs away. Problem solved. No consequences. A more in-depth discussion later about the situation and why we don't hit people with sticks. He apologized to his cousin on his own when we were done our walk.

Creativity goes a long way. And I must add that parenting without imposing consequences requires one to BELIEVE that the child does not have bad intentions, and that there is always a solution.

That is fine, in theory. But if I try to go up to my 2.5 yr old as his teeth or nails are ripping his brothers flesh, or he's beating his brother into unconsciousness, and ask him to please stop, um, well it doesn't happen. He doesn't just stop and apologize. He digs in or hits harder. I have to physically seperate them. And isn't my physical intervention technically "coercion"?

While I do not think my 2.5 yr old has "bad intentions", I just don't think he yet has the ability to control his frustrations enough to not hit, or scratch when he is frustrated about something, whatever it may be. And there are times I cannot keep every little thing in his world just perfect and 100% stress-free, yk? So what then?

Example:the other day, we went to the library. It was just going to be a quick trip, but they were doing a talk about birds, and my 4 yr old wanted to go in and listen. NP, we went in and sat down, he was enjoying it, but my 2.5 yr old was becoming loud, so we went out into the childrens section (right ouitside the room where the bird talk was). He was screaming, hitting me, trying to run away. He was trying to grab anything he could and throw it at random people. I was so torn, cause his big brother was enjoying the bird talk, but he was upset, and disrupting the peace in the library.
I felt like it would have been completely unfair to ds1 to make him leave before the bird talk was over because his brother couldn't stop screaming. I also couldn't take ds2 outside and leave ds1 alone in the library. Thank goodness the bird thing was over shortly after ds2 started losing it, and we just left in a big hurry.
What do CL'ers do when they have more than 1 child? How do you handle a situation similar to the one above?


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## HeidiAnn67 (Jun 12, 2007)

Okay, this is an honost question. I'm not trying to sound snarky.

I'm trying to understand this "no consiquences at all" and everyone "compromising". It all sounds lovely.

But honostly, what happens when your child grows up and goes to work?
My boss isnt' about "compromising" with me. He makes the rules and I follow them. I COULD quit my job, but that's not a realistic thing I can do. I love my job, and I need my job.

So how do adults, who were raised in this manner suddenly handle the "real world" because the majority or people don't behave in this manner (at least in the world I live in). And I'm not refering to a totally unrealistic, tyranical boss. I'm just talking about an average boss who has rules about how things are done, and I don't always agree with all of them.


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## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

I'm reading a great book that is very enlightening that one of the CL ladies on this list suggested...it's called Nonviolent Communication by Rosenberg. Basically he says there are several ways that we "coerce" people into doing what we want by the way we communicate with them. And there are healthier ways of communicating our needs and wants. From what I understand that is more what they are talking about when they are saying they don't co-erce their kids. That they are able to talk about needs and wants in a "nonviolent" way to come to a mutually agreeable solution.

It is hard to do with non-verbal kids but there are some postings about how it can work with them. I'm not there yet. But I find the approach fascinating and suggestion you check out a copy of the book to see if any of it is helpful to you.

In the boss example, the NV approach would say something like - well you have choices about how you interact with your boss and you need to take responsibility for them. So you DO have a choice - you could quit your job, for example, if you don't like his rules. But you choose to keep your job and therefore follow his rules. Not sure if I'm explaining it right - but it's all about how you choose to deal with the people around you.

For a child it might be something more along the lines of: I (the parent) feel embarrassed and afraid when you stand on the table at a restaurant because I worry that you will fall and I worry about what people think about us. You (the child) could respond by telling me how it makes you feel to climb on the table (powerful, excited, whatever) and then together you could maybe work out a way to get those same feelings/needs met in another way.

hth

peace,
robyn


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

monkey's mom - That scenario could easily take place at my house too. We do a lot of CL things. But I have seen it taken too far, where it becomes taboo for mama to ever say "No," or ever to insert her needs into the equation. That is the problem I have with it. I do work in a consensual way wherever possible.

But bottom line is I'm the mama, she the child. We are not adult roommates. I set some boundaries, and I think that is how it should be.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *L&IsMama* 
What do CL'ers do when they have more than 1 child? How do you handle a situation similar to the one above?

I would do what you did. There are times where it's, "Listen, your brother is having a really hard time." And they get that most of the time b/c they know if it's *them* having the hard time we're all going to do our best to help them.

But just like you, we were at Shrek 3 the other day, and I just took the little one out and told the older, "We'll be right in the hallway, come get me if you need something."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HeidiAnn67* 
Okay, this is an honost question. I'm not trying to sound snarky.

I'm trying to understand this "no consiquences at all" and everyone "compromising". It all sounds lovely.

But honostly, what happens when your child grows up and goes to work?
My boss isnt' about "compromising" with me. He makes the rules and I follow them. I COULD quit my job, but that's not a realistic thing I can do. I love my job, and I need my job.

So how do adults, who were raised in this manner suddenly handle the "real world" because the majority or people don't behave in this manner (at least in the world I live in). And I'm not refering to a totally unrealistic, tyranical boss. I'm just talking about an average boss who has rules about how things are done, and I don't always agree with all of them.

My oldest is only 5, but I will say that he hasn't had any problems dealing in situations where he's needed to follow rules. Last year he took karate at a karate studio and all the other parents were asking us how we "got him" to be so well behaved and follow instructions. It made me laugh! What do you say? "Uh well, basically we don't have any rules and we don't punish." They would be like:







:









So just like you, my kid was willing to do stuff like sit in a line and wait his turn b/c the overall class was worth it to him. And like you, if it wasn't worth it, he would quit and find something else. He certainly wasn't trying to negotiate having more turns or do something else than what the instructor was saying.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I agree with thismama.

SO far, I do every CL example on this thread, but I just do have limits. Like the hitting thing. I have shown my daughter how to hit pillows or other things instead of her brother, talked to her about why she was hitting, etc, but I am still going to step in and physically stop her from hurting her 1 year old brother.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
monkey's mom - That scenario could easily take place at my house too. We do a lot of CL things. But I have seen it taken too far, where it becomes taboo for mama to ever say "No," or ever to insert her needs into the equation. That is the problem I have with it. I do work in a consensual way wherever possible.

But bottom line is I'm the mama, she the child. We are not adult roommates. I set some boundaries, and I think that is how it should be.

But if the mother's needs aren't in the equation how is it consensual? That's something else.

And lots of people think what you think--fine with me, you know? Sometimes I feel like people think answering these questions equals a recruitment effort.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

First, my aim in raising my daughter isn't to make a good and compliant future employee for someone. I know that isn't your aim either or you wouldn't be at MDC, but I've had that question before from people I really think believe that is a primary duty of parents, and that's always my reaction. But someone here at MDC is probably thinking more along the lines of, "Our children's future happiness is reliant upon being able to hold down a job and make money to support themselves." I'd agree with that.

I'm trying to give her the ability to think so when she's an adult she'll have the ability to weigh the pros and cons of any given decision. Does she follow rules she doesn't agree with because she likes her job? Or does she dislike the rules enough to find another job? How hard or easy will it be to find a new job? How likely is it that the new job won't also have rules she doesn't like? I think by giving her the power to think things through and make decisions about the things that effect her, she'll have the ability to think things like that through in the future and make good decisions. She can certainly choose to follow rules she doesn't agree with because she wants to keep her job, but I want her to know that it is a choice. And if she truly is unhappy someplace, she'll hopefully also have the confidence to leave.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
But if the mother's needs aren't in the equation how is it consensual? That's something else.

Yeah, that was my question.







: Exactly.

Quote:

And lots of people think what you think--fine with me, you know? Sometimes I feel like people think answering these questions equals a recruitment effort.








Well, could you introduce me to them?? Mostly I know mainstreamers and super GDers. I need some friends who occupy the middle ground!


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## HeidiAnn67 (Jun 12, 2007)

Thanks for the answers. They do make sense to me.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
My children's behavior is a reflection of their inner lives. I am interested in getting to know them better every day. The more I focus on how they feel instead of how they act, the more peace love and harmony reign.

I love this! So true for us, too!

Oh, and whoever said they don't let the older kid hit the other one, we don't do that either. But keeping people safe doesn't mean that we "impose consequences" in the traditional sense.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShadowMom* 
One of the big models of non-coersive parenting (uh... she changed her username. where are you, Pat?) is not what I would call wishy washy AT ALL.

I don't do non-coercive parenting - to be honest, I just don't have the tools and strength a lot of times. However, I do think a lot of the ideas are applicable to everyone - for instance, problem solving. I'm really shocked at how my 3 year old can do problem solving! He had some toys in the middle of the floor and I started to move them and he got mad (I kinda approached it wrong, but that's another story). So I told him that when toys were in the middle of the floor, I was afraid we would trip and fall or hurt our feet. We talked through it and he actually came up with a few different solutions.

The surprising thing, he is always coming up with solutions that do work, which I would NEVER have thought of!

I am a single mama and I do have house rules that keep me sane during this time in my life. And, I mainly use the "bark orders" style of parenting (ha ha) which means I tell my DS what I need him to do and why and I expect him to do those things (and he generally does).

*However, I do think if you have the emotional strength and time to change YOURSELF and how you parent (collective you) enough to employ these strategies more often, it could really acomplish some great things.* I think it's very hard for us to overcome the way we were raised, and the way our culture thinks, THAT much, in order to really parent in a non-coersive way.

As for whether TOTAL non-coersive parenting works, I never tried it so I'm not sure. But I do think a lot of the ideas have a lot of merit.

This is SO where I'm at!! Thank you for your post. I feel just the same way.

I want to echo that Consensual Living isn't the mother bowing to the whims of the child. It's finding a solution that works for everyone.

I also like the concept of "get off your butt parenting." In the case of the scratching and kicking, you remove the child from the situation. It's not OK to hurt people. But at the same time - validate their feelings. You feel really angry right now. You want to yell and scream. We can do that here and you can kick and hit this. I will keep you safe and I will keep your brother safe and I will love you both - even when you are kicking, hitting and screaming - you are still loveable.

Also, I think kids have a MUCH better sense of self-preservation than we give them credit for, especially if allowed the explore their own limits early on. I never ran after my child and she never ran out of eyesight of me. She always looked back to see if I was following. Kids know that momma means safety. In general, I let her climb on things and stand in the bathtub. She developed her own sense of what was safe. In the case of a restaurant, I would redirect her. I'd remove her from the table, maybe let her stand in her chair. If she was really fussy and yelling about it - out we'd go to find a curb or something else to climb on.

The idea of children's self-preservation as well as non-coercive parenting came to me through The Continuum Concept by Jean Leidhoff.


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
First, my aim in raising my daughter isn't to make a good and compliant future employee for someone. I know that isn't your aim either or you wouldn't be at MDC, but I've had that question before from people I really think believe that is a primary duty of parents, and that's always my reaction. But someone here at MDC is probably thinking more along the lines of, "Our children's future happiness is reliant upon being able to hold down a job and make money to support themselves." I'd agree with that.

I'm trying to give her the ability to think so when she's an adult she'll have the ability to weigh the pros and cons of any given decision. Does she follow rules she doesn't agree with because she likes her job? Or does she dislike the rules enough to find another job? How hard or easy will it be to find a new job? How likely is it that the new job won't also have rules she doesn't like? I think by giving her the power to think things through and make decisions about the things that effect her, she'll have the ability to think things like that through in the future and make good decisions. She can certainly choose to follow rules she doesn't agree with because she wants to keep her job, but I want her to know that it is a choice. And if she truly is unhappy someplace, she'll hopefully also have the confidence to leave.

My goal is not to raise my daughter to be a compliant future employee either, however, I do feel that part of my responsibility as her mother is to help her understand the world around her, and give her the tools to be socially accepted by the social groups to which she belongs.

As I stated above, I am not comfortable with CL in either practice or philosophy, because (in my mind) it teaches and promotes the notion that the individual is ALWAYS in control of his/her circumstances, and that there is ALWAYS a mutually-agreed-upon solution to every situation. Truth is, I don't buy it. We live in a world that is rampant with sexism, racism, homphobia...etc...

I want to empower my daughter to resist the (real) oppressive aspects of our culture. And, I believe she needs to be armed with a "real world" awareness for that to be possible.

Brings to mind that quote from the Matrix: "Choice is an illusion, created between those with power, and those without".


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

See, I'm really down with Sit On Yer Butt parenting.







That works well for me!

I care how my child feels, we have a close bond, I do represent safety for her, just like you do with your kids. I don't think not doing CL (at least as I've seen it described on this particular forum) across the board, all the time, means we are clued out or compromising our relationships with our children. Which is *kind* of what I'm seeing implied even on this thread.

I see people acknowledging that CL is lots of extra work. Honestly, I'm not interested in lots of extra work. I don't see us as needing a change, and I definitely don't see myself willing to put out tons of extra energy. I'm all about preserving the mama sanity.

CL is not the only way to have a positive, respectful relationship between parent and child.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

OKay I am trying to think of examples of where I am not CL.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
OKay I am trying to think of examples of where I am not CL.

I have some for us.

"We gotta go to xyz in a minute. Put your shoes on!"

"No hitting the animals. Gentle with the animals or they will go on the other side of the gate and you will not be playing with them."

"Real food first, then sweets. No sweets in the morning. It's not okay to have 8 popsicles in one day. That is not good for your body."

"If you can't behave in the grocery store, you will be riding in the cart/on mama's back."

Etcetera.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I see people acknowledging that CL is lots of extra work. Honestly, I'm not interested in lots of extra work. I don't see us as needing a change, and I definitely don't see myself willing to put out tons of extra energy. I'm all about preserving the mama sanity.

For us, CL probably is the path of least resistance.

Trying to coerce and impose consequences led our stubborn, hard-headed crew into the biggest, ugliest pissing matches you'd ever want to see.







With me right at the helm.

But, really it's just like why I choose AP over CIO, nursing on schedule, etc. Maybe it's harder at the time, but I really believe in it and that however "trying" it might be in the moment, the results are worth it (and how I feel about *my* behavior, too).


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I guess I don't really believe in it. I mean, I do believe in using consensuality wherever possible, and easy. But not ALL the freaking time, no matter how much time it takes or what kind of craziness goes down (like not attending social events so the toddler can watch TV).

That is too much for me, and I am not convinced it is the best way to parent, the path with the best results. In fact the way I have seen some specific situations outlined on this board, I think it may be really not a healthy approach actually.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I know. You keep saying that.

And my response to you is the same as my response to people who think I'm doing my children a HUGE disservice by co-sleeping and extended bfing and homeschooling--"Cool. You don't have to do it my way, and I don't have to do it your way."


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I don't know if you are doing your children a disservice. I'm not saying that in the least. It sounds like you are not as you seem to have your head on straight about it.

It's just some of the practical applications that have been advised to me re: my own situation seem overly passive and actively harmful. But I'm not speaking about you, just to clarify.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I have some for us.

"We gotta go to xyz in a minute. Put your shoes on!"

"No hitting the animals. Gentle with the animals or they will go on the other side of the gate and you will not be playing with them."

"Real food first, then sweets. No sweets in the morning. It's not okay to have 8 popsicles in one day. That is not good for your body."

"If you can't behave in the grocery store, you will be riding in the cart/on mama's back."

Etcetera.

Me too. Though I do have to say, as my daughter gets older, and I can explain the reasoning, and she can problem solve, these are issues less and less.

Oh I thought of one. Leaving the park when I have to pee. I saw some people here say that a parent should just stay at the park longer. Well, I am not going to be in pain, possibly get a uti, etc so my kid can stay at the park longer. Just like I would never drag my child place to place even if she has to go to the bathroom, eat, sleep, or whatever. Though again, my daughter is getting more empathetic for things like this.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I can't claim that I totally parent without coercion. But I highly value the principles of ncp -- and feel I'm doing a better job as a parent when I'm in the habit of seeking common preferences with my children. This means expressing my point-of-view as well as hearing theirs.

Striving to parent this way has opened my eyes to all kinds of situations where coercion is absolutely _not necessary_ -- situations where I'd previously thought I _had_ to impose my will on my child. When I took a problem-solving approach, I discovered there really was a solution right under my nose, I just had to take three seconds to look for it.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I do have an almost-grown daughter, and it's very clear to me at this point that parenting without coersion and through finding mutually agreeable solutions has not been a "disservice" to her.

I've tried to raise her with choices, but I haven't tried to shield her from the knowledge that rules exist. With younger child, this information is not really crucial, but as they get older it is, and this kind of parenting hinges on sharing knowledge with your child. Maybe the difference is that Rain always understood who was making the rules, and what the potential consequences of breaking them were, and what she could do if she needed something and felt stymied by a rule. She learned to analyze and problem-solve, not simply obey.

And because her life has been generally spent doing things she wanted to do, she has generally not had issues with trying to upset the status quo. Even jobs (and she's had a number of them already, starting at 11) have been things she chooses to do, with a clear understanding of what will be expected and what she'll get in return. I've always been a single mom on the economic brink, so she's never had a "privileged lifestyle", and I'm, um, not wimpy - my needs get met, too. Mostly we've just tried to live harmoniously, as two competent individuals who care about each other. And it's worked...

Dar


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

It's interesting to me that the OP was about discipline without consequences, and it got turned into a CL/non coersion discussion.
It seems to me that one can parent without consequences, and still insist on certain things. Imo, Secret of Parenting seems to be (mostly?) like that. There are no logical consequences, no punishments, no shaming, etc. But it's pretty strict gd, imo.
I guess if you consider telling dc "I expected you to help pick up toys and you didn't" to be a consequence, then, um, ok. But I think that's taking it much too seriously.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

i'm not CL at all (maybe a little - i dunno. don't care) and i'm 100% fine with that







.


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## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I can't claim that I totally parent without coercion. But I highly value the principles of ncp -- and feel I'm doing a better job as a parent when I'm in the habit of seeking common preferences with my children. This means expressing my point-of-view as well as hearing theirs.

Striving to parent this way has opened my eyes to all kinds of situations where coercion is absolutely _not necessary_ -- situations where I'd previously thought I _had_ to impose my will on my child. When I took a problem-solving approach, I discovered there really was a solution right under my nose, I just had to take three seconds to look for it.









:
that's why I'm interested in CL/nvc too! I have too much of a tendency with *everyone* to think it's my way or the highway....and *trying* this approach has helped me see things in a very different way.

peace,
robyn


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
- Privileged lifestyles lead to over-coddling and precious-ification of children. I don't think this is good.









precious-ification







wonderful word!

I totally agree with this.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I can't claim that I totally parent without coercion. But I highly value the principles of ncp -- and feel I'm doing a better job as a parent when I'm in the habit of seeking common preferences with my children. This means expressing my point-of-view as well as hearing theirs.

Striving to parent this way has opened my eyes to all kinds of situations where coercion is absolutely _not necessary_ -- situations where I'd previously thought I _had_ to impose my will on my child. When I took a problem-solving approach, I discovered there really was a solution right under my nose, I just had to take three seconds to look for it.

This is what I like about it too. I'm not CL - but striving to move in that direction has made me see that there are some things that I thought coercion was necessary but when I looked at it differently I saw there were likely a number a possible things we could have done and of the 10 or so possibilities it's likely my daughter and I could have found one we both liked.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
...when I looked at it differently I saw there were likely a number a possible things we could have done and of the 10 or so possibilities it's likely my daughter and I could have found one we both liked.

now this i totally and completely agree with. i can't imagine practicing GD without this mindset.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
It's interesting to me that the OP was about discipline without consequences, and it got turned into a CL/non coersion discussion.

I think that's because one big objection most people have to non-coercive parenting is that "the child gets to do whatever s/he wants with absolutely no consequences whatsoever."

Of course, anyone who's seriously looked into ncp realizes the parents aren't supposed to be coerced, either. This means you're in ongoing discussions with your child, modeling the attitude of, "Let's figure out a way that we can ALL get what we want!"

The primary roadblock to most people realizing this can work, is that most of us were raised assuming the following:

"Children won't care about the feelings of others unless they're rewarded for doing so, and punished (or subjected to negative consequences) if they don't."

The secondary roadblock is conventional belief that there always have to be winners and losers: we can't all win.

In other words, there's nothing intrinsically wonderful about living in cooperation with the people you love, or intrinsically unpleasant about getting your way at the expense of others.

So, to borrow from Alfie Kohn, conventional wisdom dictates that we need to be ready with "carrots" to reward good behavior, and "sticks" -- or logical/natural consequences to punish bad.

If it's possible to parent coercively without ever imposing any consequences -- well, I'm not exactly sure how that would look, but I'll take your word for it. I'm just saying "consequences" are often associated with getting our kids to do what we want, and "no consequences" is often associated with non-coercive parenting.

Thus the jump from discussing "no consequences" to discussing non-coercive parenting.


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## SugarAndSun (Feb 6, 2005)

You all must be saints to always remain so calm.









No really, my actual input.

I think some of it depends on the child. For example, there are times that ds1 is totally out of control. If I don't physically stop him sometimes, he would get really hurt or really hurts ds2. NOT ok.

Now ds2 is much more moderate. He will eat when he is hungry, sleep when he is tired, etc. I could totally see myself being completely gd, etc. with him especially if he were an only.

Also, I am, a HUMAN.







I laugh, I cry, I even scream.







: DH grew up in a home where no one could have emotions and it just seems fake to me. I know many people will say their dc can have emotions, but if you are modelling emotionlessness, they will eventually learn that it is not OK to get frustrated, etc.


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## milkamama (May 14, 2005)

hope you don't mind me jumping in. i lurk here a LOT and have learned a great deal...thank you all.

i wanted to second the recommendation for non-violent communication. our family was able to participate in a workshop series with others in our community based on rosenberg's prinicples with a focus on parenting (parenting from your heart by inbal kashtan and non-violent communication were both used). the workshop, gathering with other like minded folks and both books have really changed the way i view life...my time with my boys and the impression i leave on the world.

i should mention that i read a lot and i feel like _practicing_ nvc with others really helped me to incorporate it into my daily life...sometimes dh will get annoyed on a crabby day and say he is done hearing needs being met...but overall it has been wonderful for our family. it taught me how to listen. i mean really listen, both to others and myself. this was a break through for me.

i was raised very meat and potatoes mainstream. we were not 'spanked' as kids, but would get hit (rarely, but it did happen). i know my parents did their best...there was a lot of shaming and 'be a good girl'...guilt...passive aggressive crap. i have worked very hard (and do every single moment) to not do the same stuff to my kids. it is a process...a journey. i don't usually classify our parenting style (we are still figuring a lot out...dh was raised the same, but with more physical-ness...is that a word?? and do what you are told). i am interested in cl and to a degree do practice some aspects of it...

love the discussion.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
The primary roadblock to most people realizing this can work, is that most of us were raised assuming the following:

"Children won't care about the feelings of others unless they're rewarded for doing so, and punished (or subjected to negative consequences) if they don't."
...(snip)...

If it's possible to parent coercively without ever imposing any consequences -- well, I'm not exactly sure how that would look, but I'll take your word for it. I'm just saying "consequences" are often associated with getting our kids to do what we want, and "no consequences" is often associated with non-coercive parenting.

Thus the jump from discussing "no consequences" to discussing non-coercive parenting.

I see. Yeah, I guess I forget often that there is quite a jump from the mainstream behaviorism type parenting (kids need rewards and punishments to do the right thing), and non-punitive discipline. Since I feel like I am FAR from CL, but very close to non-punitive (I have many faults, and am human, but I try), it's easy for me to put those two far apart on the gd continuum. But I guess they are closer than I think.

At any rate, I'd be interested to know if anyone else thinks one can parent without consequences, and NOT be CL. The person that always comes to mind is Maya44. There are definitely expectations, but no consequences per se. (again, unless you would consider it a consequence to let children know that you expected something of them, that they didn't do)


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I
The primary roadblock to most people realizing this can work, is that most of us were raised assuming the following:

"Children won't care about the feelings of others unless they're rewarded for doing so, and punished (or subjected to negative consequences) if they don't."

The secondary roadblock is conventional belief that there always have to be winners and losers: we can't all win.

*In other words, there's nothing intrinsically wonderful about living in cooperation with the people you love, or intrinsically unpleasant about getting your way at the expense of others.*

nak...

i'm not sure i agree with your analysis here. i would argue that most people do in fact, think that it would be wonderful to live in cooperation with others, and that yes, there is something wrong with getting your way at the expense of others...i dunno.

my issue is that i can't seem to wrap my head around this concept of parenting without "coersion". i mean, i really can't fathom how it's possible for there to be no coersion within a parent/child relationship.

clearly, the parent is in a position of power and influence, and children naturally want to please their parents, so how can a parent and child come up with a mutally agreeable solution, that does not require either the parent "giving in" to the childs wants, or manipulating the child to "believe" that they actually want what you want?

example; my husband and i are considering homeschooling our 7 yr old. for a variety of reasons, *we* want to do this. in discussions with dd about this, she has made it known that, for a variety of reasons *she* does not want to homeschooled. now, how do we all get what we want without *me* manipulating her into thinking "yeah, homeschooling would be great", or *me* just giving up, and letting her continue at school?


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## BMG580 (Jun 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolalola* 

my issue is that i can't seem to wrap my head around this concept of parenting without "coersion". i mean, i really can't fathom how it's possible for there to be no coersion within a parent/child relationship.

clearly, the parent is in a position of power and influence, and children naturally want to please their parents, so how can a parent and child come up with a mutally agreeable solution, that does not require either the parent "giving in" to the childs wants, or manipulating the child to "believe" that they actually want what you want?


I agree that parents are in a position of power simply because they have more knowledge and life experience. I have read quite a lot about CL and my main concern is that young children are not always capable of making good choices for themselves and I believe that the parent does need to step in and set limits. For example, children need a certain amount of sleep, to eat nutritious food, be physically active and stimulated in positive ways (ie. reading, crafts, etc.) in order to grow and function well. A 4 year old does not understand the negative impact of too much TV, staying up too late, eating too many bad foods, etc.

I guess the CL parents are able to find a way to ensure those healthy living standards are met while still allowing their child consensual input? I just don't know too many children who would turn down a second donut or not want to watch Cars before bed. Perhaps it is just the type of kids that I am around? In my experience, very young children pursue instant gratfication and have trouble understanding long term consequences.

I am NOT trying to be down on CL, I just am not really sure how it can work with very young children. I am sure there are a lot of intracacies to daily living with CL and if it works for a family then that is great. I am just pretty sure it would not work in my own household!


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolalola* 
nak...

i'm not sure i agree with your analysis here. i would argue that most people do in fact, think that it would be wonderful to live in cooperation with others, and that yes, there is something wrong with getting your way at the expense of others...i dunno.

Well I think that either/or, cooperation vs. getting your way at the expense of others, is a set up in this context.

It's a parent/child relationship. The parent provides the container of safety, boundaries. The parent is the choreographer of what happens. The parent is the caregiver, and the guide. We are the parent for a reason. We are not equals, like roommates, two wise experienced adults with seperate lives choosing to exist together.

I am the mama, my daughter the child. Around here that means something. And so it should, IMO.


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Well I think that either/or, cooperation vs. getting your way at the expense of others, is a set up in this context.

It's a parent/child relationship. The parent provides the container of safety, boundaries. The parent is the choreographer of what happens. The parent is the caregiver, and the guide. We are the parent for a reason. We are not equals, like roommates, two wise experienced adults with seperate lives choosing to exist together.

I am the mama, my daughter the child. Around here that means something. And so it should, IMO.

I agree. And, it does mean something around here also.

I do not have any issues with parent-imposed consequences for the reasons you've outlined above.


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JEB20005* 

In my experience, very young children pursue instant gratfication and have trouble understanding long term consequences.

I am NOT trying to be down on CL, I just am not really sure how it can work with very young children. I am sure there are a lot of intracacies to daily living with CL and if it works for a family then that is great. I am just pretty sure it would not work in my own household!









: also.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Keep reading the boards and you'll hear examples. I remember one mother saying how *she* had a craving for ice cream. Because of the way she was raised, she felt like she should reward herself with ice cream. Her 2 sons indulged her, but didn't order any ice cream themselves, because they didn't feel like it.

You'll will also see some of the free-TV mommas (as opposed to TV-Free mommas) who talk about how their kids might watch TV for a long time and then go months without it.

I think the CL people do believe that children CAN make good choices for themselves, even in the face of candies, sugars, sweets, television and other things addictive things.

In my own house, we are struggling with the television. If it were up to me, we would have none and if it were up to DH we'd have a big screen in the living room and one in every bedroom. The more I try to limit and forbid the telly, the more the 4 year old is drawn to it. But I just can't get past the idea that it's addictive. And the idea that if I allow unrestricted access, I'm a bad momma.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SugarAndSun* 
You all must be saints to always remain so calm.








I know many people will say their dc can have emotions, but if you are modelling emotionlessness, they will eventually learn that it is not OK to get frustrated, etc.

Not imposing consequences (or coercion) doesn't mean that emotions aren't expressed. I tell my kids when I'm angry or whatever--and sometimes I don't even need to tell them!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
At any rate, I'd be interested to know if anyone else thinks one can parent without consequences, and NOT be CL. The person that always comes to mind is Maya44. There are definitely expectations, but no consequences per se. (again, unless you would consider it a consequence to let children know that you expected something of them, that they didn't do)

Absolutely! I think Maya is a great example of it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolalola* 
example; my husband and i are considering homeschooling our 7 yr old. for a variety of reasons, *we* want to do this. in discussions with dd about this, she has made it known that, for a variety of reasons *she* does not want to homeschooled. now, how do we all get what we want without *me* manipulating her into thinking "yeah, homeschooling would be great", or *me* just giving up, and letting her continue at school?

Couldn't you find out what sorts of things she wants about school and work to provide them in a homeschooling environment?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JEB20005* 
A 4 year old does not understand the negative impact of too much TV, staying up too late, eating too many bad foods, etc.

I guess the CL parents are able to find a way to ensure those healthy living standards are met while still allowing their child consensual input? I just don't know too many children who would turn down a second donut or not want to watch Cars before bed. Perhaps it is just the type of kids that I am around? In my experience, very young children pursue instant gratfication and have trouble understanding long term consequences.

In my experience a 4 yr. can understand those things. And if they can't I'm not sure how dictating them for them will get them any closer to understanding.

You might be interested in reading here: http://sandradodd.com/food. Particularly the True Tales of Kids Turning Down Sweets & Halloween Candy Gets Dusty.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I am the mama, my daughter the child. Around here that means something. And so it should, IMO.

Well, it means something here, too. Just b/c it doesn't mean the same thing as you doesn't make it meaningLESS.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Well I think that either/or, cooperation vs. getting your way at the expense of others, is a set up in this context.

It's a parent/child relationship. The parent provides the container of safety, boundaries. The parent is the choreographer of what happens. The parent is the caregiver, and the guide. We are the parent for a reason. We are not equals, like roommates, two wise experienced adults with seperate lives choosing to exist together.

I am the mama, my daughter the child. Around here that means something. And so it should, IMO.
















:


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

4 pages? I think I'm scared to read them...


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

I might be out of step, I'm only up to page 2 so far.

Thismama's point about a young child not being able to fully take control of their world and function in it is a very good one. For example, my 2 yo doesn't WANT to go to bed, she truly doesn't, but she doesn't understand that if she doesn't then the next week will be very unsettled and upsetting for all of us. She can't project that far into the future. How would you handle that without coercion?

At the supermarket, she'd like to take everything off the shelf and spread it around the floor, build stacks, hide things, etc. How would you handle that without coercion?

I'm having difficulty understanding how the impulses and wants of a two year old (and my two year old is very very 'easy' - her impulses are rarely socially unacceptable) can possibly fit into society without modification. Isn't living together in communities entirely about coercion? I'm glad the next door neighbour has been coerced into not practicing his yodelling outside at 2am, y'know?

And where do my needs fit into this? Using the cup throwing example - what if I have a sore hip or a migraine and simply don't want to pick that damn cup up again. Why is it bad to just leave it there? Or if I desperately want some fruit, but can't go to the supermarket because my two year old will rearrange it if I do? How could your average person cope with the extra burden of selflessness on top of everything we already do for a our kids? (weak argument I know, I can just imagine someone using it for CIO, lol)

Monkey'smom - your example with your five year old staying up to watch the DVD. Doesn't that impact all of you by him being cranky the next morning? And is he really able at that age to understand and give enough priority to being well rested the next day?

HeidiAnn- that was something I was asking, too (about coping in the workplace). I don't want to raise a mindless automaton who'll jump of a cliff in triplicate if ordered to do so, but at the other extreme I want her to be able to put on an ugly purple uniform if it means she gets money for xyz, and to be able to follow rules, even if they're silly and she hates them. And on a more basic level, things like taking her turn doing the bad jobs that no-one wants to do.

Following from a very early poster's comment about her 14 yo does well at activities because she decides to do them - aren't you risking raising a perpetual dropout? I'm not saying this in a protestant work ethic kind of a way, but iin a simple do unpleasant stuff because you need to kind of a way.

I am VERY bad employee, and hellish to supervise, because I question everything. I can never bear to stay at a job more than a year or two, because the stupidity of the people above me always irritates me too much. I am VERY good at whatever I do, even if it's as petty as dusting stock in a supermarket, but I could do with a hell of a lot more ability to buckle down and follow stupid rules without argument or resentment. I don't think it's good for the child to raise them to be like me.

And, if any behaviour medification is bad, how does an adult with no table manners get along in the world?

Quote:

Striving to parent this way has opened my eyes to all kinds of situations where coercion is absolutely not necessary -- situations where I'd previously thought I had to impose my will on my child. When I took a problem-solving approach, I discovered there really was a solution right under my nose, I just had to take three seconds to look for it.
See, my laziness and two year old tantrums got me there with no help whatsoever. Why on earth would I pick a huge battle and wrestling match in order to enforce some petty rule. Too lazy to wean, too lazy to set up a nursery, too lazy to police eating, too lazy to use time out, that's me!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 

And where do my needs fit into this? Using the cup throwing example - what if I have a sore hip or a migraine and simply don't want to pick that damn cup up again. Why is it bad to just leave it there?

I don't see that as an imposed consequence at all. I think that taking the cup away, and keeping it out of reach IS an imposed consequence. But not picking it up again? I don't see that as punishment at all.
Nor does it necessarily have to be non-CL. (I'm not CL, because I suck. lol. No, really, I don't have the patience and self discipline to be CL.)
But I can imagine a CL friend of mine saying to her 3yo "I don't want to pick that up again. My hip hurts." Then giving him some options that would be fun that wouldn't involve her picking up the cup. She doesn't strike me AT ALL as someone who doesn't make sure her needs are met too!!! In some ways, it seems like she's almost more "strict" (but that's not really it)- she's always giving information about how his actions affect others, she doesn't seem to have any problem telling him when he's doing something that isn't agreeable to her, etc. And most of the time, he's quite happy to change what he's doing accordingly. Sometimes, he's not. But I can't imagine that consequences would make a child any more agreeable than he is!!


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 
Monkey'smom - your example with your five year old staying up to watch the DVD. Doesn't that impact all of you by him being cranky the next morning? And is he really able at that age to understand and give enough priority to being well rested the next day?

Sometimes he's cranky the next day. Today he wasn't (and it's 6 pm now and he's happily playing games with his little brother). If he's cranky I'll just try to point it out to him and talk about getting enough sleep. Today we didn't have anything planned so last night wasn't an issue of needing to be "rested up" for anything.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
In some ways, it seems like she's almost more "strict" (but that's not really it)- she's always giving information about how his actions affect others, she doesn't seem to have any problem telling him when he's doing something that isn't agreeable to her, etc.

Yeah, I find that I'm often "more strict" in that way than the other families I see. I'm very quick to tell my kid what constitutes rudeness or disrespect when we are out and about. I have really high standards for behavior in public and at other's homes (and in my own, too, I guess).


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 
For example, my 2 yo doesn't WANT to go to bed, she truly doesn't, but she doesn't understand that if she doesn't then the next week will be very unsettled and upsetting for all of us. She can't project that far into the future. How would you handle that without coercion?

My daughter went to bed when she was tired. I think having bedtimes and enforcing them can lead to resistance against going to bed. When Rain was little I would notice when she seemed sleepy and suggest calming activities, like nursing, or reading in bed, or pulling out the sleep sofa and watching a video. Or, sometimes, I'd be lying on the bed reading or doing homework and she'd just crawl up next to me, start twisting my hair, and fall asleep.

I'm not understanding how staying up later tonight will make the next week upsetting for all of you... could you explain further? We did sometimes have to wake up earlier than usual, and depending on Rain's age, I'd explain that to her, and maybe try to wake up a bit earlier for a few days before, but more often than not that didn't work, so we just worked through it, and maybe she napped...

Quote:

At the supermarket, she'd like to take everything off the shelf and spread it around the floor, build stacks, hide things, etc. How would you handle that without coercion?
I'd explain why the supermarket employees preferred that foods be in their places (safety, finding things, inventory) and suggest alternatives, like building stacks with stuff in the cart already (maybe detour to the can aisle first). Actuall, at 2 Rain was a great help in the supermarket, because she had boundless energy, so I'd give her her own list, and have her weigh things on the scales, or push the cart... maybe it took longer, but it was fun.

Quote:

I'm having difficulty understanding how the impulses and wants of a two year old (and my two year old is very very 'easy' - her impulses are rarely socially unacceptable) can possibly fit into society without modification.
Modification is fine, as long as she's okay with it, too. Think problem-solving. The coercion vs. "she follows her impulses and does whatever" dichotomy is false. I'm like Monkey's Mom in that my standards are also quite high, and I talk about them... and I get migraines, and I get grumpy, and I talk about that, too.

Quote:

Following from a very early poster's comment about her 14 yo does well at activities because she decides to do them - aren't you risking raising a perpetual dropout? I'm not saying this in a protestant work ethic kind of a way, but iin a simple do unpleasant stuff because you need to kind of a way.
She's done lots of unpleasant stuff that's part of something else she's chosen - that's never been an issue. In fact, I try to be sure that she understands what her choices entail - she knew that being in a play would mean lots of time sitting backstage, for example, or quietly in the wings. She knew she'd have to go on even if she didn't feel well, or was tired. And she did...

One of the jobs she is doing this summer is petsitting for someone with 3 cats. There are definitely unpleasant aspects to that job... enough said.









Quote:

I am VERY bad employee, and hellish to supervise, because I question everything. I can never bear to stay at a job more than a year or two, because the stupidity of the people above me always irritates me too much. I am VERY good at whatever I do, even if it's as petty as dusting stock in a supermarket, but I could do with a hell of a lot more ability to buckle down and follow stupid rules without argument or resentment. I don't think it's good for the child to raise them to be like me.
Rain probably wouldn't stay at a job she disliked (well, she did last summer, because she was moving in another month anyway, but she wouldn't have stayed even if we hadn't been moving). I wouldn't either. Luckily she loves her jobs, and I love my job. We don't love every moment, but all in all, they're good, and we're okay with the bad parts because they're outweighed by the good. I'm glad she won't put up with being miserable.

Dar


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Everyone is welcome to explore consensual living at the CL tribe, CL web site or CL yahoogroup. We discuss living consensually with children, with our families, and with our community. Toddler issues, sibling issues, partner issues, and in-law issues are common topics, including "leaving the park", toothbrushing, car seats, bedtimes, homework, sweets, tv, safety, chores, medical issues, etc. with a focus on creating win-win solutions. The key issue with seemingly conflicting needs is to identify the underlying needs and create solutions which address those. There are hundreds of examples discussed at the yahoogroup.

Here are the links:

There is the Consensual Living tribe:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=493985
(The tribe is not as active as the yahoo list.)

http://www.consensual-living.com/
The web site has several articles about *Creating the Climate for Consensual Living* and _"have to"_ issues.

Most discussions about CL are at the yahoogroup. Anyone is welcome to post specifics parenting challenges to the CL yahoogroup. We ask that you be open to or on the path toward living consensually. We have over 550 families with btdt ideas and suggestions on ways to create alternative solutions to address everyone's underlying needs. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consensual-living/

Here are some old threads on the CL yahoogroup addressing some of the challenges of creating solutions with little people.

-Here are a few non-verbal toddler threads:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1881

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1905

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1861

This one is about leaving places:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1719

This one is about leaving the park:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1445

This one is about negotiating around boring appointments:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1692

This one is about "too much information":
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1605

Getting shoes on a toddler and other creative problem solving:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1960

CL for a young preverbal toddler:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1895

Some basic CL questions:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1673

Toddlers with a mind of their own and transitions:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1443

Food issues and CL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1123

How to gain cooperation:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1305

Book recommendations:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1279 See also
the files for discussion and links to the recommended reading list.

I also highly recommend Pam Leo's book *Connection Parenting*. She focuses on connection parenting.







She even talks about seeking to discover underlying needs and not using coercion. The subtitle is "Parenting Through Connection Instead of Coercion, Through Love Instead of Fear". I have read some of it and highly recommend it. Even more than Naomi Aldort's because it goes beyond validation.
http://www.amazon.com/Connection-Parenting-Through-Instead-Coercion/dp/193227917\
\
\
2/sr=8-1/qid=1158853700/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-4052086-2190453?ie=UTF8&s=books

Here are the chapter titles:

*1.* _Connecting with Ourselves_
*2.* _Connecting with Children through Respecting Children_ (I have to add the explanation of this chapter: "Respect is the foundation of connection. We teach children respect by modeling respect. We model respect by treating children with the same respect we expect.")
*3.* _Connecting through Listening to Children's Feelings_
*4.* _Connecting through Filling the Love Cup_
*5.* _Connecting through Communication that Builds Relationship_
*6.* _Connecting through Decoding Children's Behavior_ (Again, I have to delight in the explanation of this chapter: "Children communicate their emotional hurts and needs through their behavior. When we learn to recognize chidren's acting out behavior as a communication of an unmet need, we can respond to children's needs instead of react to their behavior.")
*7.* _Connecting with Our Own Needs_: "Parents have needs too. Families work best when everyone's needs are met."

HTH, Pat


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## AmyC (Jul 3, 2005)

whoops! I had another Mothering window open and thought I was responding in Case Against Circumcision!!! (Sorry, I'm a CL lurker!) I'm taking my post to CAC now.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
At any rate, I'd be interested to know if anyone else thinks one can parent without consequences, and NOT be CL.

Yep, I do (well, sort of, depending on how you define "consequence.") I don't coerce very much, but I don't strive to be CL, and I'm not. But I also don't impose consequences, at least not things like time-outs, or taking away privileges, or anything along the lines of "if you do X, then [something you won't like] will happen." I do get angry or annoyed when certain things happen, and perhaps that should be considered a consequence.

I can see how it might seem impossible to coerce effectively without using consequences when your kid resists - but it's really not. With my 1.5 year old, of course, there's no need for consequences when he doesn't obey, because my coercion doesn't usually involve any expected obedience. I just pick him up, take things away from him, refuse to give him what he wants, etc., and he's free to struggle and complain all he wants. I don't try to punish him for complaining - on the contrary, I try to distract or comfort him. (I do sometimes tell him firmly, "No! Don't do that," and expect that he'll obey, and he usually does. But if he doesn't, there's no punishment; I just come up with another way to prevent the behavior.)

With my 4.5 year old, I find that on the occasions when I flat-out tell her she HAS to do X, or can't do Y, she normally just goes along with it. There doesn't need to be the threat of some consequence. Of course, there's always the implied threat that I might get angry if she doesn't do what I ask, but the reality is that if she really, really doesn't want to do what I ask and throws a fit over it, I'll probably soften my stance and reconsider my request, or try to come up with some way to make her feel better about the situation.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
At any rate, I'd be interested to know if anyone else thinks one can parent without consequences, and NOT be CL. The person that always comes to mind is Maya44. There are definitely expectations, but no consequences per se. (again, unless you would consider it a consequence to let children know that you expected something of them, that they didn't do)

Well, I think there are expectations in ALL relationships. I have an belief that my loved ones care about me and my feelings: I share with my children how various behaviors affect me, with the expectation that since they love me, this information will help us to get along better. And it does.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

We basically have two rules.
1) we don't it, we use our words
2)no destruction of belongings (we just don't have money to replace furniture, etc) if this wasn't an issue we would not have rule number 2.

The reason in our house for few rules is that I want Kailey to learn about her world through exploration.

We don't have a typical nice little girl. She is passionate, willful, knows what she wants and how she wants it, and demands things be explained to her- just as an adult would- and I wouldn't have it any other way.

We haven't done this for her 6 years of life though, so perhaps this is why she isn't as mellow as others who have been raised rule free.

She also attends a public childcare and school- so our philosophy and their rules often collide.

RE: Mother's Needs

The rules above address my personal space and my desires, but also respect hers. It's in everyone's best interest to respect the body and belongings of others.

The consequences? I revert back to gentle consequences, dependant on her actions. Hitting? I walk away. Hurting belongings? The belongings are put in a place that she cannot access without asking. If they are her things and she breaks something- that in itself is a consequence, and I do nothing. I do have the choice to not buy her a replacement though.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

The argument against CL that kids will grow to be social morons who expect to be able to negotiate in every situation never sits well with me. I suppose if I kept my child inside with no exposure to the outside world for the first 18 years of his life, that would make sense. But my child is exposed to the harsh actualities of the world all of the time. I've never felt the need to replicate them at home. It's my job to help him process those events.

That said, I do my best to live consensually. I don't always succeed. Most of our breakdowns occur around video games. He wants to play them, but he's 6 and there are some that he's not able to play without assistance. I sometimes really don't want to play them. So, when he says he wants to play, I tell him that I don't want to play at the moment, so if the older boy upstairs isn't home to help him, it would be best for him to play something he can manage on his own. I remind him how frustrating it is for him to play video games that are too hard for him and how it usually means he whines. He still chooses to play the harder games sometimes and then a lot of whining ensues. Whining brings out my inner hammer dropper. I can't stand it. We have a tiny space, I can't get away from it, and it's not acceptable to me that he chooses to do something that he knows is going to frustrate him that greatly. So, I tell him that he's whining and, if he continues, the game is going to have to go off.

That's probably horrible, but it's the only thing I've found that keeps my head from exploding.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolalola* 
nak...

i'm not sure i agree with your analysis here. i would argue that most people do in fact, think that it would be wonderful to live in cooperation with others, and that yes, there is something wrong with getting your way at the expense of others...i dunno.

Yes, I agree that most people feel this way -- but most don't trust their children to realize how wonderful it feels to live cooperatively, or how icky it feels to get their own way at others' expense: thus most parents see a need for extrinsic rewards for cooperative behavior, and extrinsic consequences for undesirable behavior.

Quote:

clearly, the parent is in a position of power and influence, and children naturally want to please their parents, so how can a parent and child come up with a mutally agreeable solution, that does not require either the parent "giving in" to the childs wants, or manipulating the child to "believe" that they actually want what you want?

example; my husband and i are considering homeschooling our 7 yr old. for a variety of reasons, *we* want to do this. in discussions with dd about this, she has made it known that, for a variety of reasons *she* does not want to homeschooled. now, how do we all get what we want without *me* manipulating her into thinking "yeah, homeschooling would be great", or *me* just giving up, and letting her continue at school?
I'm not sure -- but would she be open to a one-semester experiment where she just gave it a try?

Since you've each shared your reasons -- would she be open to considering ways to obtain the things on her "list" while homeschooling?

When our now 7yo was four, I had a relative who'd just started spending a little one-on-one time with dd. After these get-togethers, dd would come back all upset that she was going to miss out on all the fun of public school.

(This relative had initially tried to talk dh and I out of our plans to homeschool; when she realized we weren't going to give it up, I think she was trying to force our hand through dd.)

At that time we weren't attempting to do non-coercive parenting, but I'd discuss with dd some of the reasons why I felt homeschooling was better. Then she'd be happy again until the next get-together. Dh and I quickly realized that one of us always needed to be with dd when she spent time with this relative, which was fine with dd. Us being there pretty much solved the problem.

Within the last several months, I've realized it's not really unschooling (unschooling is non-coercive education) if I'm keeping my children home against their wills. So I talked with dd, and said if she ever thought she'd like to go to school, we could look into it and I'd enroll her if she decided it was what she really wanted (of course, I'd also be quick to take her out if she decided it wasn't for her).

Dd immediately made it clear she did NOT want to go to school. By this time, she'd developed more of a sense of time than she'd had at four. She realized she'd be spending a great deal of the day away from us, and that she'd have to sit a great deal of the time, and raise her hand for permission to get drinks and use the restroom.

She realized she wouldn't be spending all that much time on the cool-looking playground. I think it helped that we'd made the transition to being a free-tv household, to borrow Ellien C's terminology. Dd has now seen lots of classroom scenes, where the teachers drone on an on about boring stuff while the kids fall asleep at their desks.

The funny thing is, before I had this conversation with dd, she'd sometimes say, "I'm bored. I wish I could go to public school." I'd ask what she felt she was missing, and we'd find ways to help her get more of these things. But since we've had this conversation, dd has quit saying she wants public school.

She still tells me if she's bored and wants a change. But it's like knowing ps is actually an option has made it less fascinating for her. It's not "forbidden fruit" anymore.

I don't know your dd or her reasons for wanting to stay in school -- but if she knew you were serious about letting her go back if she tried homeschooling and decided it wasn't for her, maybe she'd be willing to give it a chance just to see what it was like.

Right now, she may have friends there and be worried she'll never see them again. Maybe if she knew you were willing to make the effort to help her keep in touch with them, and also to help her connect with other homeschoolers her age, she'd feel better about taking the plunge?


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

I'm not Attila the Hun, but I'm also not the gentlest of mamas. We don't have lots of rules, but there are a few.

I think that when there is one kid and one parent involved in a situation, compromise and non-coercion can work really well. Add another parent or another child (or more), and I don't think it's possible to have everyone's *wants* met all the time.

And I say wants, because a lot of the time I think people talk about a child's *needs* when it's not, IMO, a need.

....I'm pretty much in agreement with Thismama.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
Yep, I do (well, sort of, depending on how you define "consequence.") I don't coerce very much, but I don't strive to be CL, and I'm not. But I also don't impose consequences, at least not things like time-outs, or taking away privileges, or anything along the lines of "if you do X, then [something you won't like] will happen." I do get angry or annoyed when certain things happen, and perhaps that should be considered a consequence.

Thank you! I love your whole post!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
The argument against CL that kids will grow to be social morons who expect to be able to negotiate in every situation never sits well with me. I suppose if I kept my child inside with no exposure to the outside world for the first 18 years of his life, that would make sense. But my child is exposed to the harsh actualities of the world all of the time. I've never felt the need to replicate them at home. It's my job to help him process those events.

Yes, and I'd think most CL mama's wouldn't really intervene in their kids relationships with others (as long as they weren't getting harmed, etc). So, if a CL'ed kid asks someone else for something, and they say no, then that's that. Mom wouldn't try to convince the person to change their mind. I bet they'd explain to dc the reasons, etc.
But kids are always learning about the way the world works, and that they will have different relationships with people other than their parents.


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Mammal Mamma~ Thanks for your reply. DD's reasons for not wanting to try homeschooling are her concerns that she will be "missing out" on activities with her friends.

I am meeting next week with a group of local homeschoolers, and their children, so hopefully DD will get a chance to chat with some of the kids, and ask them some questions...etc.

We'll see.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

What a great discussion! And thank you CLers for sharing your experiences...it paints a more detailed picture for me of what your interactions are like with your children.

I think we tend to take too much credit as parents when our children's temperment has a lot to do with the way they behave. I think for some, CL comes more easily because of their children's temperment...and their own.

When my ds was 2, most of my other mama friends were struggling with typical toddler behaviors that they found troublesome. My ds was very, very easy going at that age and all we did was talk about things...no consequences at all were necessary. He was also very verbal very early on. Anyway, at that time I attributed much of his (good) behavior to my parenting style.

Then he turned 4...and watch out! Boundaries were pushed, rudeness soared and basically lots of testing and power stuff came up. I've had to try so much harder to talk things out rather than impose a consequence when a particular behavior is triggering me. At this point, I really look at what about the behavior is getting to me so much and then work from there.

I guess my point is that some kiddos are more challenging than others. And we as parents have unique temperments as well. It's that combination that makes up the way we relate. We have to be real and be ourselves...I think parenting really is the best therapy ever for personal understanding and growth.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I'm not interested in talking anyone into parenting the way I do, but, we've got 2 parents and 2 kids...and no one would describe either me or my two kids as easy.









We are poster children for spiritedness and highly sensitive folks. Everyone, except as noted above, dp, who is a nearly perfect person.

We just choose a different way to build our parent-child relationships.

I have no problem with people saying "I'm not interested in that kind of relationship." But it really isn't that I have easy kids or that I'm easy or that it's just one mom/one kid dynamics.


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## BMG580 (Jun 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel* 

I think we tend to take too much credit as parents when our children's temperment has a lot to do with the way they behave.

I just have to jump back into the conversation because I think this is such an insightful statement. I quickly realized this as a new mother whereas before I was a parent I really thought that the parenting style was the key. In reality different children can require different types of parenting and parents who take credit for easy-going, calm, good sleeping, well-mannered toddlers and young children may be over-crediting themselves. I certainly think parenting plays a role but it is not the sole factor in determining those qualities, especially early on.

So, I agree that some children can really thrive in a CL household while others need more "direction" (can't think of a better word!).


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

My daughter is pretty easy now, but oh wow was she a spitfire when she was younger. She was one constant tantrum. And she can still be very very stubborn.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I'm not interested in talking anyone into parenting the way I do, but, we've got 2 parents and 2 kids...and no one would describe either me or my two kids as easy.









We are poster children for spiritedness and highly sensitive folks. Everyone, except as noted above, dp, who is a nearly perfect person.

We just choose a different way to build our parent-child relationships.

I have no problem with people saying "I'm not interested in that kind of relationship." But it really isn't that I have easy kids or that I'm easy or that it's just one mom/one kid dynamics.

Yes.

My son hit through most of his toddlerhood. Years of hitting. Turns out we were feeding him lots and lots of food he was allergic to.

Now I have two kids who are already pretty intense and if they get TRACE amounts of dairy (or a long list of other foods I won't bore you with), it can be DAYS (usually 3) of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde behavior with about 6 hrs. of sleep a night.

And let's just say that I struggle mightily with temper and a default reaction of violence.

We're not easy.

(Though there was a brief period in my twenties...







)


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

In my experience, kids who feel respected by their parents (and respect is the cornerstone of CL) tend to behave - for lack of a better term - better which would make them appear "easier."


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
We're not easy.

(Though there was a brief period in my twenties...







)









:


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I'm not interested in talking anyone into parenting the way I do, but, we've got 2 parents and 2 kids...and no one would describe either me or my two kids as easy.









We are poster children for spiritedness and highly sensitive folks. Everyone, except as noted above, dp, who is a nearly perfect person.

We just choose a different way to build our parent-child relationships.

I have no problem with people saying "I'm not interested in that kind of relationship." But it really isn't that I have easy kids or that I'm easy or that it's just one mom/one kid dynamics.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
Yes.

My son hit through most of his toddlerhood. Years of hitting. Turns out we were feeding him lots and lots of food he was allergic to.

Now I have two kids who are already pretty intense and if they get TRACE amounts of dairy (or a long list of other foods I won't bore you with), it can be DAYS (usually 3) of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde behavior with about 6 hrs. of sleep a night.

And let's just say that I struggle mightily with temper and a default reaction of violence.

We're not easy.

(Though there was a brief period in my twenties...







)

I can really understand why you both are saying this, but I think that it isn't a matter of "easy" or "difficult". There are so many factors that go into relationships and why and how they work. Our children are so brilliantly complex that we would never be able to tease out what about their personality and behavior has to with our parenting or their temperment. Hence the never ending nature/nurture debate.

But I do really appreciate how you don't use consequences and I've been working hard not to rely on that as much. I think I always will to some extent (I'm a hothead and it's better than screaming at him!) but I hope to use much more problem-solving and such.


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