# do any of you NOT expect your child to say...



## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

... thank you or please or sorry to YOU?!!!!!

curious how many of you are there.

i have never expected my dd to say those things to me. i know she is all of that. she doesnt need to say them to me. she does with others. but not those exact words but the essence of it like i appreciate or i did not mean to...

how has that worked for you?

it has worked really well for us. she may not use those words but i see it in her actions. and that is what is more meaningful to me. she loves telling her friends she is forbidden to say those words to me


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## no5no5 (Feb 4, 2008)

By "expect" do you mean "force" or do you mean simply that you think it will happen? Because I would never force DD to say any of those things, but she does. I say them to her, and she says them to me.

Have you actively tried to discourage your child from using those words with you??? I don't see why you would do that. Being polite to one's friends and family is just as important as being polite to strangers, IMO, if not more important.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *no5no5* 
By "expect" do you mean "force" or do you mean simply that you think it will happen? Because I would never force DD to say any of those things, but she does. I say them to her, and she says them to me.

Have you actively tried to discourage your child from using those words with you??? I don't see why you would do that. Being polite to one's friends and family is just as important as being polite to strangers, IMO, if not more important.

I totally agree with this. Words, actions... they're both important. I think it's important for more than just the "politeness" factor and whether or not the child is then polite outside of the family. It is a demonstration to the other people in the family that are observing the exchange that there is caring and respect and it is also emphasizing any actions of respect toward the person you are addressing. Even if *you* know that the "Will you get me a glass of water?" has an unspoken "please" in there because of the warm smile you see, others may not see that or pick up on it. I think leading by example is the ultimate tool in child-rearing. I think it's important for parents to use manners with each other and their kids. Seeing Daddy treat Mommy with respect (and visa versa) shows the children healthy interactions in adult relationships and forms the way they will treat and expect to be treated when the finally are in adult relationships.

So yeah, I think manners at home is more important than any display of manners outside of the home, actually. I would call it essential.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

I guess the words are just words, and I see your point. But it seems like it's more of a game between you and your daughter than the actual philosophy, kwim?

Would you feel the same if her actions didn't show that she appreciates what you do? And I bet it would bother you on some level. I don't think one should parent with expectations, as parenting often is a thankless job. But I do believe that teaching kids to appreciate what is done for them is not a bad thing, and you can do it in multitude of ways, saying "thank you" is just one of the ways.









Now, for those families that do practice saying "please and thank you", I assure you, just words are not enough either, it's just a small thing. But let's face it, I love when DP tells me thank you for this or that. Of course I want him to mean it. Of course I want his actions to support it.

I also know it makes my parents feel warm and fuzzy, so why wouldn't I say it? This past Christmas I wrote them letters saying how much I appreciated their efforts. Thank you's don't cost anything, but can really brighten up a day.

In general, sometimes you can't pay back a small favor, but still want the person to know that you don't take them for granted. "Thank you" seems like a nice way to do it.

When dsd does something nice to me - I say thank you. I want her to know that I appreciate her efforts. I want her to grow into a person that shows appreciation for big and little things alike, and I try to lead by example.

P.S. I think biggest problems in families start to arise when people don't feel appreciated. Words alone per se don't have much to do with it, but hearing a simple "thank you" at the end of a rough day can be a real pick-me-up.









my 2 cents


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## spedteacher30 (Nov 20, 2005)

We do expect please and thank you--not for everything, but as part of being polite about special requests or experiences. If my son asks for pancakes for breakfast instead of his normal toast, it takes a lot of extra energy on a parent's part, and it is nice to hear him acknowledge that to us with a please and thank you.

If he is being whiny or ungrateful, we will ask him to start over with a more polite tone. Often, I think it is just a matter of reminding him that his mouth is working faster than his brain.


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

I say "please" "thank you" and "sorry" when appropriate to my son. I guess I do expect him to say it back-- it's the way we roll here. Politeness is for *everyone*, not just people outside the home. When I say it, I mean it, and I expect that of him, too.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

We taught manners through modeling the behavior. My 4.5 DD only says please when she really wants something but has started saying 'thank you mom' anytime I do or say something she likes, including cooking food for her. I never really expected her to say thank you that much and I don't think my DH and I use the phase anywhere near as often as she does. And of course we don't 'require' any sort of verbal manners, we just behave as we want our DD to behave. She's probably just going through some ultra polite thing and will start using the words more moderately in time.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

I do expect my kids to say that. We model, we ask them to say things nicely. I've been known to say "what?" when I get demands. It usually works pretty well to get them to rephrase whatever they want.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 
P.S. I think biggest problems in families start to arise when people don't feel appreciated. Words alone per se don't have much to do with it, but hearing a simple "thank you" at the end of a rough day can be a real pick-me-up.









This is what I was (awkwardly) trying to say. Well put!


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 
I say "please" "thank you" and "sorry" when appropriate to my son. I guess I do expect him to say it back-- it's the way we roll here. Politeness is for *everyone*, not just people outside the home. When I say it, I mean it, and I expect that of him, too.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alyantavid* 
I do expect my kids to say that. We model, we ask them to say things nicely. I've been known to say "what?" when I get demands. It usually works pretty well to get them to rephrase whatever they want.

We expect please and thank you. Obviously, a 2 year old isn't going to get it all (or most!) of the time, but we not only model but ask, "What do you say?" and/or give The Look if he hasn't said it. I know that is anethma to some people here, but it's very important to me, culturally and, therefore, personally.


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## VillageMom6 (Dec 2, 2008)

I definitely *do* expect to hear those "magic words" from my children and they hear them from me.









My youngest just turned two and he already knows to say please and thank you. I have a little hand gesture and expectant look that I use if he forgets. It's all very simple and becomes second nature.

I'm baffled that a child would brag? boast? mention? to her friends that she doesn't "have" to say nice words to her mom. I don't think you're doing her any favors, to be honest.


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## hergrace (Oct 9, 2003)

I expect an apology or apologetic behavior from my kids if they have physically hurt me or purposefully hurt my feelings. I also expect "please" and "thank you' for special requests.

My husband and I don't always use please and thank you amongst ourselves, so we can't expect our kids to. We do model respectful behaviour within and outside the family, but are more flexible with how things are expressed within the family than outside.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Yes, we use regular manners in our home. Including but not limited to please & thank you. I don't FORCE my kids, I just model it to them and they follow my lead.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
... thank you or please or sorry to YOU?!!!!!

curious how many of you are there.

i have never expected my dd to say those things to me. i know she is all of that. she doesnt need to say them to me. she does with others. but not those exact words but the essence of it like i appreciate or i did not mean to...

how has that worked for you?

it has worked really well for us. she may not use those words but i see it in her actions. and that is what is more meaningful to me. *she loves telling her friends she is forbidden to say those words to me*









I didn't see this at first. She's forbidden to say those words to you? Out of curiosity why would you forbid it?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I don't know about "expect", but we use those words with her and she uses them with us. If she never used those words I'd wonder why and work with it on her, but if she doesn't on occassion I don't think I even notice. I'm sure she at least almost always does, but I don't pay very close attention.


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## LaLaLaLa (Oct 29, 2007)

My kids are 5 and 4 and spent much more time with me than with anyone else. How would they practice knowing how to use proper manners with others if I didn't encourage them with me? I don't want to wait until they are out in the world with other people to START using polite words.

I am very polite to my kids and my husband; we're all about please and thank-you and sorry. I expect my kids will pick that up, as well, and remember to use those words with family as well as with others.


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## KimberlyD0 (Mar 8, 2009)

Of course I expect them too. Same as I expect them to have all other manners. You can't get far in life if your rude.

I also make sure I say it to them so I can be a good example.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I don't. I never did. BUT, instead of "please", I expect "Can I have...?" I expect to be spoken to with respect. She wasn't allowed to say "Give me..." Or "I want..." in a way that meant "get me..."

I don't ask anybody to say "Sorry". But, I do expect the offender to try to fix what they have done. A hug, or "are you ok?" is enough.

We use those words here, and my daughter and all of my daycare kids say please, thank you, I'm sorry without any reminders.

I TOTALLY disagree with parents who actively teach children never to say "thank you", "please" or "excuse me" to adults because they think it's giving in to authority. (I see that a lot here) I want a likable polite child.

But, I don't sit there dangling the milk waiting for her to say "PLEASSSSE". If she asks politely, and doesn't say please, I don't even notice that. It's in the tone, not the words.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

I can't imagine forbidding them. My kids are polite, for the most part, and I love that in public or with family/friends they will say please and thank you. Some kids don't - and I think that's a bit rude at times. Like at field day when the nurse was handing out popsicles - a lot of kids didn't say anything to acknowledge that she gave them one.

Modeling is what seems to work best with my kids - I always say please and thank you, and as a result my children naturally do.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

I think this is related to the 'languages of love' and some people don't need verbal "please" & "thank you"s to feel the meaning behind them. But we do model polite speech for DS (he's only 17mos so I don't expect him to say anything) and I would want him to say please & thank you occasionally with me -- though not necessarily for every interaction. DH & I have a very laid-back relationship & often forgo polite speech but I can tell it makes DH so happy to hear, "Thank you for cooking dinner" etc. so I make sure to say things like that occasionally & I think they are more meaningful because it's not a rote behavior. But I, too, am curious why you would FORBID her to use those words?


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

I believe in intent more than actual words. So if ds says "can you get me some water mom?" I will happily do it. If he says "get me some water...please!" It's probably not going to happen.

I don't get the bragging that she's not allowed to use what's considered polite words with her mom. Why would that be against the house rules?


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

Of course I expect my children to use good manners to me. How would they ever have learned to use those phrases outside the home if they didn't learn them from my modeling first?

I can't imagine not expecting my kids to be polite to me. I would feel like I had seriously failed them as a parent if I didn't teach them these basics of social behavior, starting with me and dh. And I would feel that I was modeling to them that mama doesn't deserve the same consideration that the neighbor who hands out Halloween candy (or whoever) deserves.

OP, I'm very interested in why you have forbidden your daughter to use the words "please" and "thank you."


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## LittleBattleAxe (May 21, 2010)

I absolutely expect my children to treat me with respect and to try to right things when they've hurt someone, as well as show simple courtesy by remembering manners. I'm very, very big on manners. Dh has beautiful manners. That's part of our family's value system. It in no way means children are somehow being enslaved to authority by demonstrating civility to others. My older children, especially, are questioners and skeptics; but they are polite. The two aren't mutually exclusive. In fact -- as I've seen firsthand in my life -- people tend to want to work with you and they take you more seriously when you are well-mannered. Throwing temper tantrums and taking people's generosity for granted are behaviors that tend to alienate others, making them less likely to want to help/cooperate/etc... manners make life easier.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

They (the "magic" words) are expected in this house, because it's important to dh. I never expected it from my kids, and don't make them say it to other people.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

i think for me it is the whole societal expectation part.

i see those words as societal expectations. formal words.

i dont like that kind of formality between us. which is why i 'forbid' her by telling her i dont like hearing those words from her mouth and i really dont.

i want to hear from her heart, not from following the rules of society. in our family. i dont want politeness from her. i want authenticity from her. it doesnt mean she never uses the thank you and sorry and please around me. she does use them once in a while. but she doesnt have to use it around me.

but i get respect and gratitude from her. in other ways. sometimes she will just out of the blue, turn around and tell me mom i really appreciate it when you do <this> for me, or i really liked it when you did <this> for me yesterday. to me hearing one of those is more meaningful than hearing a thousand thank you's that week. kwim. i mean yeah i know she appreciates. sometimes its not even words. she does a little dance or comes and hugs me with her special 'thank you' smile. or just an emotional 'oh mo'om'.

i have never encouraged her to say those to others too because she has picked them up from people around her. she said her first thank you when she was 10 months old. when she was learning i never told her say please or thank you. instead i would say it for her and she in time picked it up.

i ask because i wonder if i am alone in NOT wanting manners from my child. manners is formality that i expect her to have with others. not with me. i want authenticity from her no matter what that means.

i AM getting what i need from her. i dont feel used. we are very close. and she helps me out a lot.

even at the cost of respect i really want authenticity. sometimes at the cost of good manners. which means she absolutely has the freedom to say 'i hate you mom'. of course i know she doesnt hate me. she is just angry or frustrated. and sometimes a few days later she will come and check - mom you know i dont hate you right? so i tell her 'yes i know you dont hate me. at that time you were angry and needed to get it out. i understand.' 'i know mom you understand. i really liked saying it then, but afterwards i dont like the feeling i have for saying it to your face. i just wanted you to know that.' that was when she was 5 years old.

i guess i do this because she is a v. emotional and sensitive child. we coparent. she prefers unstructured. her dad likes her to be very structured. so she needs a place to vent. and she has the freedom to be who she wants with me. on the flip side i also get to know the truth of what is going on inside her, which her dad does not get to see as he expects a certain level of behaviour out of her. now if i saw those things coming out in public then i would question my philosophy, but she is very confident and polite in public.


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## LittleBattleAxe (May 21, 2010)

Children's authenticity doesn't suffer because they have nice manners.


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## MaerynPearl (Jun 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alyantavid* 
I do expect my kids to say that. We model, we ask them to say things nicely. I've been known to say "what?" when I get demands. It usually works pretty well to get them to rephrase whatever they want.

Same here. I deserve respect as much as anyone, and letting them go without saying please/thank you does not bode well for future respect.

It does not have to even necessarily be the exact words please/thank you but it MUST be respect shown.

7 year old DS is going through a phase of not wanting to show respect and in return... if he demands something, he doesnt get it until he rephrases it into a nicer way of asking.

And if they do not say thank you (or show gratitude) I say Youre welcome anyway... which usually ends up with them remembering.


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

I do expect DS to say "please" and "thank you." I think part of it is b/c that is how I was raised, and part is b/c DH was NOT raised that way, and I am the Mommy and therefore get LOTS of requests from both of them throughout the day.

I won't say DH is rude. I definitely know it's not an attitude or in any way intentional. But his tone is generally brusque to begin with, and when he sees me going to the kitchen and doesn't want to get his own drink, he'll say, "Get me a glass of water...?" in a tone that sounds like he was going to say, "Get me a glass of water, wouldja?" I bristle at that. I generally feel less inclined to agree or go out of my way when it's not put gently or politely. Add a toddler to the mix, and it's downright demeaning to be treated that way on a regular basis.

So DS says, "I want more water." He at least has to say please. I'll teach him the nuances of asking more nicely later, but for now (for me) the "please" helps it feel a little less commanding. And I love the happy little voice saying "thank you" once the water is delivered. I'd rather hear a happy little chirp than nothing at all.


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## nola79 (Jun 21, 2009)

Yes, I expect my children to be polite both inside the home and out. I show them the same respect.
I can't imagine *not* expecting it.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 

even at the cost of respect i really want authenticity. sometimes at the cost of good manners. which means she absolutely has the freedom to say 'i hate you mom'. of course i know she doesnt hate me. she is just angry or frustrated. and sometimes a few days later she will come and check - mom you know i dont hate you right? so i tell her 'yes i know you dont hate me. at that time you were angry and needed to get it out. i understand.'

It sounds like it works beautifully for you and your daughter. The only thing I disagree with is that saying sorry and thank you damage relationships and mean that there is no authenticity or heart to heart.

I rrrrrreally think that if there is a problem between a parent and a child, it comes from something other than saying "thank you for the dinner, mom".


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## Lolagirl (Jan 7, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
manners is formality that i expect her to have with others. not with me. i want authenticity from her no matter what that means.

This is a really confusing concept to me. While authenticity may suffer at the hands of formality it doesn't necessarily follow that good manners need be dispensed with in order to keep it real in any given situation.

It sounds to me like good manners/politeness is being conflated with fakeness and a stuffy sort of formality. But when one really stops to think about the purpose behind having good manners it becomes clear that they are intended to show a sort of caring to one's fellow citizens on a very basic and yet universal level. I was always taught by my parents that good manners and being polite is just an extension of showing kindness and deference to others. It's about not being self centered and self absorbed and instead thinking about how my actions, my attitude and even my affect may impact others.

I frankly think it's kind of odd to tell a child that she may not use good manners in dealing with a parent. I do appreciate the idea that the intent is to teach the child that they have a safe place to always be their authentic self around their mother or father, but I think that can be done without telling the child she may never use words like please or thank you or sorry to her parents in order to insure that safeness.


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

Everyone in our family is expected to treat each other with respect and courtesy, and for us, that does include please, thank you, you're welcome, and sorry. I would add picking up after yourself, cleaning up your own messes (or trying to) and helping out other family members as needed. I would imagine that hampers my 5 and 2 y/o's authenticity at times, but I think those behaviors help the family to get along and the household to run smoothly.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LittleBattleAxe* 
Children's authenticity doesn't suffer because they have nice manners.

That sums up my response to this perfectly.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
i dont like that kind of formality between us. which is why i 'forbid' her by telling her i dont like hearing those words from her mouth and i really dont.

I totally get what you mean. Like I said earlier, DH & I have that kind of relationship -- but we're both grown adults & we keep very good manners outside the house. I think as long as your DD is well-mannered outside the house, inside the house you can do your own thing. It doesn't sound like you let your DD walk all over & disrespect you -- instead you allow her to express herself in her own words, not the words our society has 'forced' on her, and I think that's great. I just question the 'forbidding' aspect of it, it just sounds odd to me, if she CHOOSES to say "please" I don't know why you would tell her not to say that. That's very different than asking her to "say please" before accommodating her requests. But I think I understand what you are saying.


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## TulsiLeaf (Nov 23, 2009)

I am hardcore when it comes to manners. Call me super traditional, but I won't answer my daughter if she doesn't speak nicely to me. When she was much littler that is different, because she didn't know. I would teach her how to ask for things nicely, how to thank people and all of that. But at nearly 5, she knows if she wants a glass of milk she has to say please. The reason being is that when I ask her to do something for me I say please. When she does it, I thank her. I model the behavior I want her to do.


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## shanniesue2 (Jul 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
i think for me it is the whole societal expectation part.

i see those words as societal expectations. formal words.


I guess I don't see "societal expectation" as always a bad thing. I mean, there's a certain amount of understanding of "societal expectation" that people need to understand in order to function well in society.

Now, I get not leading children into societal expectations surrounding things like gender roles/sexual orientation and whatnot because those are identity issues.

But I don't see manners as an identity issue. Manners have more to do with interacting respectfully and successfully with other people. Now, I'm fairly balanced about it and I won't force a please or thank you if the request is made respectfully. But if DS starts demanding things of me, I tell him that he needs to ask nicely and I model what that sounds like, saying, "can I have a drink, please, mommy?" At that point, he usually has difficulty with changing his tone of voice (he's 2 and still learning about that), but he will usually change his question to include a please. And I will say that MOST of the time DS is very respectful and polite to me, DH, and other people. He frequently says thank you on his own (this afternoon, for example, he was in his car seat and wanted his sunglasses. He said-happily and respectfully, "sunglasses, mommy?" I handed him his sunglasses and he cheerfully said, "thank you mommy!")

I just don't see anything wrong with teaching children how to interact respecftully with other people (to include tone of voice as well as "manner" words)

P.S. I don't force DS to say "I'm sorry." But I do try to model it as one way of making amends.


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## candycat (Jun 20, 2010)

We do say please and thank you in our house. Well, DH may not always (or even regularly, if I think about it really) say it, or I to him, but I use them with the kids and we both expect them to say it back to us. And especially to strangers. It's not like we beat it out of them, but we do sometimes gently remind that they need to be polite. Generally, I'd say about 80% of the time, they do use please and thank you. They are 2 and 3 right now.

ETA: Speaking of manners, it's funny when my 3 year old DS reminds DH to say "excuse me" after, for example, burping at the table. DH's manners... well, let's say they leave something to be desired. LoL But apparently DS is catching on! (Of course it's also impolite to correct your elders and all that but at least he has the right idea.)


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## CassnBeth (Jul 30, 2007)

My daughter is far too little for this but I am not exactly sure that "I hate you mom" would be something I would encourage. Not specifically because of respect or manners but just because it exists at the intersection of "authentic" and "truthful." "I hate you" in your daughter's case, seems to have been an "authentic" stand in for "I am really angry and frustrated" which is more close to literal truth. It only worked as a way of communicating her feelings because you knew the code. I certainly don't expect a five year old to have figured out something that complicated but I would probably encourage a child to use a different, more accurate, way of expressing those feelings next time. Outbursts/lack of thank yous may be authentic and probably won't hurt a parent who knows what is truly meant but at some point a partner is going to need to be able to understand what might look like meanness/lack of consideration. And I guess I think that it is important for a child to see the skills they will need in later relationships modeled in parent/child interactions so it is always their default expectation for behavior.


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## akwifeandmomma (Aug 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LittleBattleAxe* 
Children's authenticity doesn't suffer because they have nice manners.

Yeah. That.


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## Sarah W (Feb 9, 2008)

I expect a please and thank you and rarely a "sorry". She doesn't really understand "sorry" yet, so it isn't important. I generally expect it from anyone and I respond in kind. It doesn't have anything to do with her being a child. I say please and thank you to her, too.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
i dont like that kind of formality between us. which is why i 'forbid' her by telling her i dont like hearing those words from her mouth and i really dont.

i want to hear from her heart, not from following the rules of society. in our family. i dont want politeness from her. i want authenticity from her....

i want authenticity from her no matter what that means.

Except these are all things that YOU want. YOU don't like hearing her say those words. YOU don't like any formality between you. YOU want to hear it from her heart.

Well, people are different. What if, by your very act of 'forbidding' manners, you are teaching her to NOT be authentic, since manners might be important to _her_? Some people speak the love language of "words of affirmation", in which they need to receive and give "words" in order to feel and show love....

If your daughter receives something from you and tells you Thank You, and you tell her not to say that, then you are not letting her be authentic. You know? You're giving her _your_ set of "words" to abide by rather than letting her express her own.

As for being happy that your daughter told you she hated you, I would be heartbroken. I try to teach my kids to think before they speak, and to say what they TRULY are trying to say, because words can cut deeply. Even to parents.


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## Mountaingirl79 (Jul 12, 2008)

I can't imagine my kid telling me thank you and me telling her I dont want to hear that...
It makes me feel good and appreciated when my kids and my husband tell me "Thanks for making dinner" with a big smile on their face. Where is the authenticity laking in that?
It makes me feel good when my boss says "Thanks for all the hard work!"

I guess it is also a habit for me to remember to thank people when they have done something for me. I grew up doing it and yes I expect my children to do it. I can see the love spread when they make people feel appreciated and also when they too are told " Thank you." for their efforts.

To each his own I guess...but I don't see it as a formality. Telling your grandmother " Thanks" for the ugly sweater may be a formality, in tha circumstance but I think it also indicates manners and tact.

Just my two cents.


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## St. Margaret (May 19, 2006)

DH and I have always said TY to each other a LOT. Probably more than please, especially for quickly done things-- they're done right then and you say TY, it's all one. This is part of our being really loving and indeed authentic with each other. We keep the lines of love and communication open. We also say I love you all day long.

So anyway, we've modeled this for DD, and did point out when she was learning how to ask for things that a please and TY make the other person feel respected and connected instead of just ordered about and taken for granted. It makes a HUGE difference in how I take the all-day-long demands of a toddler and now preschooler







.


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

OP, I think I get where you are coming from. My DD is also pretty sensitive and emotional. I also am the person she can feel safe with and vent to.

Sometimes that means I hear a lot of "I hate you" or "You messed it up" or "It's your fault" type stuff from her. But I also hear much more "I love you" and "Thank you" and "You make the next food ever" type of stuff.

We teach manners by modeling them. I hated the forced formality that I grew up with.


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

The other night, after a day of tantrums and general 3 year old behavior, when I was just about to google toddler boarding schools, my 3 year old looked up at me with a big smile on her face and said "Thank you for my dinner, Mommy." I have to admit, it made me feel like maybe I'm doing _something_ right in this whole parenting thing.

I do strongly encourage her to say please and thank you, and I don't allow a demanding tone. I can't really imagine parenting any other way. Kids learn how to interact with the world by taking in what they see and learn at home. I want her to grow up to be a polite and gracious person, so I stress the behavior that I want to see her mirror. No, I don't do the "dangling the milk until I hear a please" thing... I definitely pick my battles and don't force anything. But if she grabs at what I'm eating and says "give me that," I'm certainly not going to give it to her.

I would be a bit concerned that she brags to her friends that she doesn't have to use manners at home. To me this indicates that she finds the sort of basic etiquette that you're talking about as being an unfair burden of childhood. It sounds like "my parents don't make me do my homework" or "my parents let me play video games all I want." I would be a bit worried about this attitude, to be honest. There's no reason not to encourage saying please and thank you as second nature.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LittleBattleAxe* 
Children's authenticity doesn't suffer because they have nice manners.

Sometimes it does


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lolagirl* 
It sounds to me like good manners/politeness is being conflated with fakeness and a stuffy sort of formality. But when one really stops to think about the purpose behind having good manners it becomes clear that they are intended to show a sort of caring to one's fellow citizens on a very basic and yet universal level. I was always taught by my parents that good manners and being polite is just an extension of showing kindness and deference to others. It's about not being self centered and self absorbed and instead thinking about how my actions, my attitude and even my affect may impact others.

Except the OP's kid IS polite and respectful to people. I know one family whose kids are not forced to say thank-you and I absolutely love the genuine, heartfelt thank-you that they regularly bestow on me. Once you hear a genuine thank-you, you don't care for the forced variety.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LittleBattleAxe* 
Children's authenticity doesn't suffer because they have nice manners.

oh yes they absolutely suffer. i feel saying those things are social conditioning. where they burst out saying TY when they dont really want to say it, just because an adult wants to hear it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 
It sounds like it works beautifully for you and your daughter. The only thing I disagree with is that saying sorry and thank you damage relationships and mean that there is no authenticity or heart to heart.

I rrrrrreally think that if there is a problem between a parent and a child, it comes from something other than saying "thank you for the dinner, mom".

True. True. like i express to her for me - ty and sorry are empty words. it doesnt really explain anything. i dont like her using them. i would much rather hear i appreciate you.... or oh no i didnt mean to ......

well in a sense they do damage - in the sense it is expected of you from society. social conditioning for my dd. i see that as damage. but then again that's my perspective. and yes you are correct it doesnt mean there is no authenticity or heart to heart.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lolagirl* 
This is a really confusing concept to me. While authenticity may suffer at the hands of formality it doesn't necessarily follow that good manners need be dispensed with in order to keep it real in any given situation.

i just feel one does not need good manners in a family ALL the time. like when my dd is emmersed in something and i bring her something and her attention is diverted i dont want her to say TY to me just coz society says she should. i would much rather her stay focused on what she finds so intruiging.

however if it is someone else, she makes sure seh says TY every single time. which is fine.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shanniesue2* 
I guess I don't see "societal expectation" as always a bad thing. I mean, there's a certain amount of understanding of "societal expectation" that people need to understand in order to function well in society.

*I just don't see anything wrong with teaching children how to interact respecftully with other people (to include tone of voice as well as "manner" words)

P.S. I don't force DS to say "I'm sorry." But I do try to model it as one way of making amends.*

i am not saying the bolded portion is wrong. i am saying 'for me' it is wrong to do it at home.

i am kinda mixed about societal expectations. which is why i dont stop her from saying those to other people. i personally feel no child should say that to me, whether mine or otherwise but i realise its a social construct that most people enjoy. and so even if i disagree i accept it.

it doesnt mean just coz a child doesnt say those words means they are being disrespectful. absolutely not. its become such a rote thing. which is why i dont demand it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CassnBeth* 
_My daughter is far too little for this but I am not exactly sure that "I hate you mom" would be something I would encourage._ Not specifically because of respect or manners but just because it exists at the intersection of "authentic" and "truthful." "I hate you" in your daughter's case, seems to have been an "authentic" stand in for "I am really angry and frustrated" which is more close to literal truth. *It only worked as a way of communicating her feelings because you knew the code.* I certainly don't expect a five year old to have figured out something that complicated but I would probably encourage a child to use a different, more accurate, way of expressing those feelings next time. Outbursts/lack of thank yous may be authentic and probably won't hurt a parent who knows what is truly meant but at some point a partner is going to need to be able to understand what might look like meanness/lack of consideration. And I guess I think that it is important for a child to see the skills they will need in later relationships modeled in parent/child interactions so it is always their default expectation for behavior.

yeah you got it. the bolded part of your post is the answer to the italized part. because at 5 it was easier to use code words rather than 'i am really angry and frustrated' which she uses now at almost 8. you will see the hate you coming out at 3 or 4. i heard it then too. esp. when it was time to leave the park.

for us it works well because we dont have a partner. when they come along - if they do, we will have to figure out communication. whether it is a new partner for me or a partner for her when she is older. if there is open communication it shouldnt be hard to do.

like i have never used i love you. it would be an 'insult' using that with my dad because we used a lot of unsaid communication that didnt need to be spoken, but i use it all the time with my mom even though its hard for me to do (again semantics for me. its an overused term that imho has lost its very specialness) because she wants to hear exactly those words.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anastasiya* 
Except these are all things that YOU want. YOU don't like hearing her say those words. YOU don't like any formality between you. YOU want to hear it from her heart.

Well, people are different. What if, by your very act of 'forbidding' manners, you are teaching her to NOT be authentic, since manners might be important to _her_? Some people speak the love language of "words of affirmation", in which they need to receive and give "words" in order to feel and show love....

If your daughter receives something from you and tells you Thank You, and you tell her not to say that, then you are not letting her be authentic. You know? You're giving her _your_ set of "words" to abide by rather than letting her express her own.

As for being happy that your daughter told you she hated you, I would be heartbroken. I try to teach my kids to think before they speak, and to say what they TRULY are trying to say, because words can cut deeply. Even to parents.

yup yup. you are right. i totally agree. it is MY thing. which is why i tell her what rubs me the wrong way.

however if she does say thank you i dont discourage her. i ask her what she meant. and then i tell her which one would she would prefer to use. and she says the non TY one. and then i tell her - see now why i prefer the non TY word. i think she used the word 'forbid'. i didnt. but i do tell her when seh does say TY or i appreciate or... 'you know that you dont have to say those to me if you dont want to.'

true true i am at that point not allowing her to be nonauthentic. but i think what i am doing is undoing the conditioning.

oh mama. i just LOOOOOOOOOOOVE it when my dd says 'i hate you'. i treasure it even more than i love you. it translates to me as 'mama you are so special that i can truly say what is in my heart. at this point you are bossing over me and at this point i hate you.' that she feels she has that freedom to be authentic is my badge of maintaining a great relationship between us. because honestly - not so much now, but earlier when seh had her bad tantrums - she is a super spirited, super confident, high energy child - there are times i didnt really like her. and i needed some distance from her. i have also told her that. that there are moments when i need a break from her. but that does not mean i dont want her or love her. no matter what she does i will always be there for her. and i will always love her. but that doesnt mean when she is being a pill that i will always like her.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mountaingirl79* 
I can't imagine my kid telling me thank you and me telling her I dont want to hear that...
It makes me feel good and appreciated when my kids and my husband tell me "Thanks for making dinner" with a big smile on their face. Where is the authenticity laking in that?
It makes me feel good when my boss says "Thanks for all the hard work!"

Just my two cents.









hey i value your two cents. this discussion helps me find holes in my theory or help me improve my communication by explaining my side of why.

what you wrote is absolutely correct. my objection to it is why does it always have to be such limited vocabulary. why only thank you. why not also i appreciate or i am grateful or ..... or some other form.

when dd was little and she used thank you with me i encouraged her to use other words too. i didnt just want her to use TY only.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
The other night, after a day of tantrums and general 3 year old behavior, when I was just about to google toddler boarding schools, my 3 year old looked up at me with a big smile on her face and said "Thank you for my dinner, Mommy." I have to admit, it made me feel like maybe I'm doing _something_ right in this whole parenting thing.
that is sweet

I do strongly encourage her to say please and thank you, and *I don't allow a demanding tone.* I can't really imagine parenting any other way. Kids learn how to interact with the world by taking in what they see and learn at home. I want her to grow up to be a polite and gracious person, so I stress the behavior that I want to see her mirror. No, I don't do the "dangling the milk until I hear a please" thing... I definitely pick my battles and don't force anything. *But if she grabs at what I'm eating and says "give me that," I'm certainly not going to give it to her.*
see here is where i differ from you. why not? why does she always have to be on her best behaviour? why isnt she allowed to be a bear at times. why cant she have a demanding tone once in a while. i mean come on. i am her mom. why cant she be 'bad' once in a while. if she cant be bad around me who CAN seh be bad with. however i realise that's just ME. and that is where i am coming from.

I would be a bit concerned that she brags to her friends that she doesn't have to use manners at home. To me this indicates that she finds the sort of basic etiquette that you're talking about as being an unfair burden of childhood. It sounds like "my parents don't make me do my homework" or "my parents let me play video games all I want." I would be a bit worried about this attitude, to be honest. There's no reason not to encourage saying please and thank you as second nature.

i dont think she equates those words as manners. when she brags to her friends what she says - i think - is that i have the freedom to be who i want. i dont always have to be 'good'. i think she is expressing her appreciation for the freedom she has.

the thing is 'manners' IS her second nature. i dont need to encourage that. in fact what dandelionkid has said is exactly what some adults have told me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid* 
Except the OP's kid IS polite and respectful to people. I know one family whose kids are not forced to say thank-you and I absolutely love the genuine, heartfelt thank-you that they regularly bestow on me. Once you hear a genuine thank-you, you don't care for the forced variety.









right on!!!! you GOT it!!!!


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
*however if she does say thank you i dont discourage her.* i ask her what she meant. and then i tell her which one would she would prefer to use. and she says the non TY one. and then i tell her - see now why i prefer the non TY word. i think she used the word 'forbid'. i didnt. *but i do tell her when seh does say TY or i appreciate or... 'you know that you dont have to say those to me if you dont want to.'*

true true i am at that point not allowing her to be nonauthentic. but i think what i am doing is undoing the conditioning.

oh mama. *i just LOOOOOOOOOOOVE it when my dd says 'i hate you'. i treasure it even more than i love you.* it translates to me as 'mama you are so special that i can truly say what is in my heart. at this point you are bossing over me and at this point i hate you.' that she feels she has that freedom to be authentic is my badge of maintaining a great relationship between us. because honestly - not so much now, but earlier when seh had her bad tantrums - she is a super spirited, super confident, high energy child - there are times i didnt really like her. and i needed some distance from her. i have also told her that. that there are moments when i need a break from her. but that does not mean i dont want her or love her. no matter what she does i will always be there for her. and i will always love her. but that doesnt mean when she is being a pill that i will always like her.

my objection to it is why does it always have to be such limited vocabulary. *why only thank you. why not also i appreciate or i am grateful or ..... or some other form.*

*when dd was little and she used thank you with me i encouraged her to use other words too.*

*i dont think she equates those words as manners.*

*the thing is 'manners' IS her second nature.* i dont need to encourage that.


bits and parts bolded above are contradictory and confusing.

i myself prefer honest communication. my child being thankful and hating me are both expressions of feeling a certain way. both are authentic. do you also encourage your child to use alternate words for hate, just like you do for 'thank you's'?

there are some topics i like to have more elaboration on, for most others i don't like the over-analyzing and hair-splitting approach. i like to look at the larger picture and the child's age and personality. TMI too soon has it's own repercussions.

manners are taught/conditioned at home first, so if you have never done that, there isn't much to undo really.


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## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm another one who doesn't see authenticity being sacrificed with manners. My sons have no problems expressing their anger or joy, but they can also say please, thank you, good morning (when acknowledging people), apologize and hug. They are authentic, always. From my 2.5 year old's meltdowns of doom, to my 4.5 year old's frank discussions of why he doesn't like this or that (usually revolving around dinner time or a certain activity at school-his teachers are always tickled by how creatively expressive and persistent he is if he is unhappy with something). I wouldn't expect anything less, but I do try and model ways to express our displeasure without hurting people's feelings, which is also important. My DH is big on teaching the boys to be gentlemen, which is kind of their knight's code. It follows not hurting people's feelings, nice manners, no hitting, no nose picking.










I dunno, when I say please or especially thank you, I mean it. I'm really pregnant...really, really pregnant, if there is an eclipse, it's my abdomen. People are dropping and rushing to help me, strangers, friends, teachers, you name it. I am entirely grateful and my thank you's are very heartfelt. I'm hoping that my children see that and people going out of their way, being nice and know to be thankful for it, and even if it is a small gesture of words, it still conveys a whollop if you ask me. We also work on thank you notes, even if it's just them drawing a picture or writing their name.

I think to me, growing up, things didn't come easy and acknowledging even the small blessings in a small way is important. So long story short, I don't think authenticity and manners are mutually exclusive.


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LittleBattleAxe* 
Children's authenticity doesn't suffer because they have nice manners.

Amen!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lolagirl* 
This is a really confusing concept to me. While authenticity may suffer at the hands of formality it doesn't necessarily follow that good manners need be dispensed with in order to keep it real in any given situation.

It sounds to me like good manners/politeness is being conflated with fakeness and a stuffy sort of formality. But when one really stops to think about the purpose behind having good manners it becomes clear that they are intended to show a sort of caring to one's fellow citizens on a very basic and yet universal level. I was always taught by my parents that good manners and being polite is just an extension of showing kindness and deference to others. It's about not being self centered and self absorbed and instead thinking about how my actions, my attitude and even my affect may impact others.

I frankly think it's kind of odd to tell a child that she may not use good manners in dealing with a parent. I do appreciate the idea that the intent is to teach the child that they have a safe place to always be their authentic self around their mother or father, but I think that can be done without telling the child she may never use words like please or thank you or sorry to her parents in order to insure that safeness.









: to all this. Despite what people think, manners isn't about engraved invitations and black tie. Manners are about showing respect, concern, and care for other people in a way that is sanctioned by our overarching culture.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shanniesue2* 
I guess I don't see "societal expectation" as always a bad thing. I mean, there's a certain amount of understanding of "societal expectation" that people need to understand in order to function well in society.

Now, I get not leading children into societal expectations surrounding things like gender roles/sexual orientation and whatnot because those are identity issues.

But I don't see manners as an identity issue. Manners have more to do with interacting respectfully and successfully with other people.

I just don't see anything wrong with teaching children how to interact respecftully with other people (to include tone of voice as well as "manner" words)


I agree with all this.

Unless a child is growing up in a completely closed society that has developed its own norms and values, you're doing your child a disservice not letting him know what the expectations are of that larger society. Now, you can explain, in age appropriate ways, why you may agree or disagree with those norms and values and why you may or may not practice those things at home. But I do think it would be unfortunate to handicap a child based on some sort of rebellious notion that "societal expectation" must, at all costs, be negated.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 

well in a sense they do damage - in the sense it is expected of you from society. social conditioning for my dd. i see that as damage. but then again that's my perspective. and yes you are correct it doesnt mean there is no authenticity or heart to heart.


Society is not always wrong. Society also dictates that we do not kill or steal. It is not always right, but it is not always wrong.

I guess my whole confusion here is:

* Why showing that you are grateful for something your parent did by using a heartfelt "thank you" is wrong?

* And why is it assumed that "thank you's" are not heartfelt?

* And why is it assumed that "I'm sorry's" are forced and not genuine?

* I also don't think that saying " I hate you" is natural or good for a child and something to be treasured. You have to look for a purpose behind words, not just the feeling. It applies to "thanks yous" as well as "I hate yous".








The _authentic feeling_ in "I hate you" usually simply being upset over something your parent just did. _The intent_ behind a child saying "I hate you" is to hurt your feelings. That's not a nice thing to do. My response to it wouldn't be "yay! my kid doesn't care if she hurts people's feelings! she's so true to herself!" My response to her would be "I understand that you are upset, but that's a very hurtful thing to say to someone." kwim?

That's how children learn from their families what's right and wrong. Saying things to hurt someone's feelings just because you are upset is wrong, and I don't mind explaining this to my kid. I'm not sure why you think that would damage relationships or stop the communication. DSD told me about her secret piercing, about her first kiss, about her first time, about the time when someone offered her drugs, etc. etc. etc. This wasn't created in the household where people don't say thank you or please to each other, or where I hate yous are celebrated more than I love yous, kwim? Having good communication means just that - being sincere, it doesn't mean NOT using socially accepted words of polite address.

I think that sometimes we worry too much about doing things just right as parents that we overdo it. It sounds like you are assuming that all thank yous and all sorrys and all the please words would be just empty words from your daughter. What reason do you have not to believe her when she says them?


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 
Society is not always wrong. Society also dictates that we do not kill or steal. It is not always right, but it is not always wrong.
no society is not always wrong. neither is it always right. and demanding manners in a sense imho is wrong. however i live in it and therefore i follow it. it has become a rote reaction, rather than a genuine response. not every culture demands a response. i feel respect is not demanded but earned. and manners is a demand. not always of course. but there is definitely a difference.

I guess my whole confusion here is:

* Why showing that you are grateful for something your parent did by using a heartfelt "thank you" is wrong?

* And why is it assumed that "thank you's" are not heartfelt?

* And why is it assumed that "I'm sorry's" are forced and not genuine?
true. true. here is why i assume that. i have heard my dd saying it. its almost rote. not every single time. but there is a difference when you say it in a meaningful way and when you dont. there is definitely a difference. when you have been conditioned its like pavlovs dog - you automatically start drooling at the sound of the bell. not always - but most of the time. i want her to get out of that conditioning. and i have found specifically getting her to not say those words, but to think of something else makes it easier for her to be more genuine.

* I also don't think that saying " I hate you" is natural or good for a child and something to be treasured. You have to look for a purpose behind words, not just the feeling. It applies to "thanks yous" as well as "I hate yous".








The _authentic feeling_ in "I hate you" usually simply being upset over something your parent just did. _The intent_ behind a child saying "I hate you" is to hurt your feelings. That's not a nice thing to do. My response to it wouldn't be "yay! my kid doesn't care if she hurts people's feelings! she's so true to herself!" My response to her would be "I understand that you are upset, but that's a very hurtful thing to say to someone." kwim?

yes you are right. the same should apply to hate too. but hate is not something one uses all the time. hate is a blanket term for many things. i dont insist on other words because it is a rarely used word. she did use other words but i think hate was her oft used one.

in a sense yes i do celebrate that yeah she doesnt care if she hurts other people's feeling - at that moment. if she is saying it inside, 'I' want to see it. If i respond and say its a hurtful thing to say to other people - at that moment - it is dishonoring her feelings and drawing attention to mine. there is time to do that later. but if the time is right to respond then (and it isnt always if she is too into her tantrum) i would, saying i know you are upset....

That's how children learn from their families what's right and wrong. Saying things to hurt someone's feelings just because you are upset is wrong, and I don't mind explaining this to my kid. I'm not sure why you think that would damage relationships or stop the communication. DSD told me about her secret piercing, about her first kiss, about her first time, about the time when someone offered her drugs, etc. etc. etc. This wasn't created in the household where people don't say thank you or please to each other, or where I hate yous are celebrated more than I love yous, kwim? Having good communication means just that - being sincere, it doesn't mean NOT using socially accepted words of polite address.
not always i think. thats NOT how children learn. i have never ever told my dd you should not kill. oooh this is interesting. talkign to you guys i have discovered that its manners is what i am against. and those 3 words are what manners is to me (but yeah it doesnt mean it isnt always heartfelt. but there is a difference between saying thankyou and instead saying i really appreciate when you bring me a glass of water when i am studying. it makes me feel loved. and yes a simple ty can also mean all those things but not always. ty to me is the same as saying good job. to me. it can be heartfelt at times but most of the time it isnt. its a reaction.) i do it because i have to not because i want to - tho thats not always true. i think its wrong that we assume the only way to learn the good is by learning manners. i live in the USA and therefore i follow what society wants. but i guess i can have my own rules in my home.








[/COLOR]

I think that sometimes we worry too much about doing things just right as parents that we overdo it. It sounds like you are assuming that all thank yous and all sorrys and all the please words would be just empty words from your daughter. What reason do you have not to believe her when she says them?

its in the rendition. you can hear the difference.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Well.... "hate" is one word that is simply not used in this house. AT ALL. Because you know? When your kid says "I HATE YOU!" that really is not what s/he is feeling. Anger, frustration? yes. But not hatred. If you're going to teach "authenticity", then it should be across the board. IMO, anyway.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
true. true. here is why i assume that. i have heard my dd saying it. its almost rote. not every single time. but there is a difference when you say it in a meaningful way and when you dont. there is definitely a difference. when you have been conditioned its like pavlovs dog - you automatically start drooling at the sound of the bell. not always - but most of the time. i want her to get out of that conditioning. and i have found specifically getting her to not say those words, but to think of something else makes it easier for her to be more genuine.

I am not understanding why a child, genuine and sincere and all other ways would say "thank you", "please", and "sorry" without using her heart?

Why not focus the effort on demonstrating that those words, just as ALL words, should always involve sincerity?

Quote:

yes you are right. the same should apply to hate too. but hate is not something one uses all the time. hate is a blanket term for many things. i dont insist on other words because it is a rarely used word. she did use other words but i think hate was her oft used one.
I don't think hurting others is a valid expression of my feelings. That can be defense to just about any insult at that point.

If dp came home and told me "I hate you" because he wanted to express the fact that he is tired, hungry and cranky at the moment, I wouldn't be replying "woohoo! you are always welcome to express how you feel here! I'm so happy you are comfortable enough with me NOT to take my feelings into consideration!"

Quote:

in a sense yes i do celebrate that yeah she doesnt care if she hurts other people's feeling - at that moment. if she is saying it inside, 'I' want to see it. If i respond and say its a hurtful thing to say to other people - at that moment - it is dishonoring her feelings and drawing attention to mine. there is time to do that later. but if the time is right to respond then (and it isnt always if she is too into her tantrum) i would, saying i know you are upset...


And I think these lessons start early, by how we react to our children when they start trying out expressing themselves with us, and then they will carry on the same into their relationships. Do you want your daughter to tell her friends / partners / relatives "I hate you" when she is upset, even if it's not too often, because it allows her to get her anger out? Because that's how you define authenticity? Or would you prefer she examined her feelings and learned to express it without stomping on other people's feelings with "I'm really upset right now, I need space, I am frustrated with xyz"?

Quote:


not always i think. thats NOT how children learn. i have never ever told my dd you should not kill. oooh this is interesting. talkign to you guys i have discovered that its manners is what i am against. and those 3 words are what manners is to me (but yeah it doesnt mean it isnt always heartfelt. but there is a difference between *saying thankyou* and *instead saying i really appreciate* when you bring me a glass of water when i am studying. it makes me feel loved.
You can phrase gratitude and politeness in many different ways, be it "I appreciate this or that", or "thank you for this or that", it doesn't change the message or the fact that someone used manners in my opinion. So I'm trying to understand why is it "I appreciate" is ok, but "I thank you" is not ok?

Quote:

i do it because i have to not because i want to - tho thats not always true. *i think its wrong that we assume the only way to learn the good is by learning manners.* .. but i guess i can have my own rules in my home
I don't think at all that the only way to learn the good is by learning manners. I also don't think that too many people will say that the only way to learn good is through manners.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

It's great to be authentic, but sometimes you have to suck it up and be polite for the sake of other people's feelings. I have a friend who is so into being true to herself that she comes off as self centered and rude. Saying please and thank you show that you acknowledge the person who is doing something for you. Children are by nature totally self serving and authentic (think having a temper tantrum over not getting ice cream). They need us to teach them empathy and appreciation.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Some would say that being authentic means understanding your own feelings, not projecting those feelings onto others. For instance think it's really important to recognize when you are angry or hurt or whatever, but you don't have to express those feelings to be authentic. I don't voice every frustration I have. I would get fired, divorced and be isolated from my friends and family if I did. Emotions come and go, but words can never be taken back.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I agree with Scottishmommy that there is a line between "authentic" and "self absorbed" that children might need help finding. It is important to be true to one's own feelings, but it's also important to feel and voice empathy. I think polite words are less about social expectations and more about voicing empathy.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I don't care if ds says please, thank you, or sorry to me. I do expect him to use a nice tone, and I prefer if he's polite in some way (ie, "would you mind getting me some juice" is just as good as "Please get me juice" and MUCH better than "GET ME JUICE! _please_" said in a rude tone).

For sorry, I'd rather hear "what can I do to fix it" than "sorry" with no real intention to help.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Also, those words may seem rote and automatic, but it's really obvious when they are absent.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scottishmommy* 
Also, those words may seem rote and automatic, but it's really obvious when they are absent.

Not to everybody. I barely register those words from other people, most of the time. I do register the overall attitude.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
i dont like that kind of formality between us. which is why i 'forbid' her by telling her i dont like hearing those words from her mouth and i really dont.

i want to hear from her heart, not from following the rules of society. in our family. i dont want politeness from her. i want authenticity from her. it doesnt mean she never uses the thank you and sorry and please around me. she does use them once in a while. but she doesnt have to use it around me.

but i get respect and gratitude from her. in other ways. sometimes she will just out of the blue, turn around and tell me mom i really appreciate it when you do <this> for me, or i really liked it when you did <this> for me yesterday. to me hearing one of those is more meaningful than hearing a thousand thank you's that week. kwim. i mean yeah i know she appreciates. sometimes its not even words. she does a little dance or comes and hugs me with her special 'thank you' smile. or just an emotional 'oh mo'om'.

These things are not mutually exclusive. My kids do both.


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## wookie (Dec 12, 2008)

i'm surprised how many cultural aspects are coming into play in threads this week.









i grew up in india and i don't remember saying any of those words except sorry to my parents until i was a late teen maybe. it never hampered my ability to use my P's and Q's in public. but at home we weren't expected to use them and in fact, like meemee, were almost discouraged to use them because they implied formality. here in north america it's an ingrained social value. i think it has smething to do with viewing individuality as a positive value here and as a negative in asia.

north america: "i'm your mom but i'm also an individual so i deserve as much respect as the next person and saying please and thanks is a way to show it."

asia: "i'm your mom so everything i do is for you. when you ask for seconds it shows me you appreciated my food. when you hug me it shows you love me. please don't embarass me by using formal titles like please and thanks."

it's worth noting that growing up i never ONCE heard my parents say "i love you" to me or my brother but i knew it nonetheless







. different cultural languages.







i totally *get* what OP means.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Not to everybody. I barely register those words from other people, most of the time. I do register the overall attitude.

We're sort of splitting hairs here. I'm not saying that people should say "thank you" with a rotten attitude, but they should say "thank you" or "I appreciate it" or something to acknowledge the person behind a nice action. I'm a piano teacher, and I can tell you that it makes a huge difference when my students say "thank you". When they just say "see you next week!" even if they have a good attitude they still seem ungrateful. I also used to work as a bar tender/waitress and when people didn't say "please" or "thank you" I felt looked down upon, even if they gave a great tip. I expect my kid to treat me the same way. She doesn't have to say "thank you" per se, but she needs to say something to acknowledge my action.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I have never forced dd to say these words and I don't make an issue of it one way or another. I have always modeled polite words and behavior though so dd does use manners and show appreciation frequently. I love to hear and see appreciation when it comes naturally, it really brightens my day when my child sees the hard work I did and appreciates it. I also appreciate it when my dd says she is sorry about something and behaves in a way that shows it. I value her true expression with the words and behaviors she chooses to have and try not to limit or force anything in her life.

I can understand not forcing manners because true gratitude goes beyond words, especially in families. I don't understand why you would forbid her to say certain words that don't have socially unacceptable meanings attached to them, aren't put downs, and don't have prejudice meanings. I think forbidding these words is an arbitrary and superficial thing. You can forbid simple words and force a child to bend over backwards trying to show appreciation or apology by the way you behave towards them when they don't so saying they can't say certain words means nothing really. I think that what matters is how you model and accept appreciation and remorse not what words you allow and don't allow, require or don't require.

I just read your second post and wanted to add that I don't think that it is possible to allow authentic expression if you are telling her what she can and can't say to express herself. I can't imagine telling my dd that it is fine (and authentic) to speak to me in a snotty tone, behave rudely towards me, tell me she hates me, etc... but that I would rather not have her say please, thank you, or sorry. I think that by discouraging things like manners and encouraging hateful speech and negative tones a parent can easily go down the path of destroying a child's loving authentic self and shaping her into a negative person who is no longer capable of expressing the positive aspects of their personality. I think that accepting negative emotions and helping children learn to express themselves no matter what the emotion is is an important thing, but that isn't something that I see as possible if you put limits on the positive emotions because you want your child to feel like they can express the negative ones.

I also don't feel like guiding children to appropriate ways of expressing themselves is a bad thing. For example: when a child is angry and says they hate you taking the I hate you message and not trying to help the child understand what they are really trying to say, not teaching them to voice what they are trying to say rather than relying only on the words "I hate you", is also discouraging true authentic expression because they aren't hating the parent (usually) they are mad and need help putting the anger and the reason for it into words.


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wookie* 
i'm surprised how many cultural aspects are coming into play in threads this week.









i grew up in india and i don't remember saying any of those words except sorry to my parents until i was a late teen maybe. it never hampered my ability to use my P's and Q's in public. but at home we weren't expected to use them and in fact, like meemee, were almost discouraged to use them because they implied formality. here in north america it's an ingrained social value. i think it has smething to do with viewing individuality as a positive value here and as a negative in asia.

north america: "i'm your mom but i'm also an individual so i deserve as much respect as the next person and saying please and thanks is a way to show it."

asia: "i'm your mom so everything i do is for you. when you ask for seconds it shows me you appreciated my food. when you hug me it shows you love me. please don't embarass me by using formal titles like please and thanks."

it's worth noting that growing up i never ONCE heard my parents say "i love you" to me or my brother but i knew it nonetheless







. different cultural languages.







i totally *get* what OP means.

put the way you have, i understand it too. but, it does not sound like your mom discussed with you about your feelings and intent on the occassions that you did use these formal terms or specifically ask that you use other words. i am not sure she would have been thrilled to hear you say you hate her, either. or even thought of these things in terms of it being authentic or not. these are the parts of the OP's post, i think are confusing.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scottishmommy* 
We're sort of splitting hairs here. I'm not saying that people should say "thank you" with a rotten attitude, but they should say "thank you" or "I appreciate it" or something to acknowledge the person behind a nice action. I'm a piano teacher, and I can tell you that it makes a huge difference when my students say "thank you". When they just say "see you next week!" even if they have a good attitude they still seem ungrateful. I also used to work as a bar tender/waitress and when people didn't say "please" or "thank you" I felt looked down upon, even if they gave a great tip. I expect my kid to treat me the same way. She doesn't have to say "thank you" per se, but she needs to say something to acknowledge my action.

No, we are not splitting hairs. We simply react differently. I do not, personally, care about hearing the words. (Sorry if this sounds formal - my apostrophe is not working.)


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wookie* 
i'm surprised how many cultural aspects are coming into play in threads this week.









i grew up in india and i don't remember saying any of those words except sorry to my parents until i was a late teen maybe. it never hampered my ability to use my P's and Q's in public. but at home we weren't expected to use them and in fact, like meemee, were almost discouraged to use them because they implied formality. here in north america it's an ingrained social value. i think it has smething to do with viewing individuality as a positive value here and as a negative in asia.

north america: "i'm your mom but i'm also an individual so i deserve as much respect as the next person and saying please and thanks is a way to show it."

*asia: "i'm your mom so everything i do is for you. when you ask for seconds it shows me you appreciated my food. when you hug me it shows you love me. please don't embarass me by using formal titles like please and thanks."*

it's worth noting that growing up i never ONCE heard my parents say "i love you" to me or my brother but i knew it nonetheless







. different cultural languages.







i totally *get* what OP means.

I love this- thanks for sharing your thoughts. You are so right when you say it is cultural and it makes sense that it is tied into North America's overly independent-minded society.

It's funny to me that people think that a child is destined to fail if they are not deliberately taught to say "please" and "thank-you" at home. Gratefulness and graciousness come from the heart and don't spontaneously occur just because the words are spoken. "Please" and "thank-you" often sound more like tools of selfishness to me (i.e I say this so now you must do that)


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
These things are not mutually exclusive. My kids do both.

I was just thinking the same thing.







My kids will say "please pass the noodles" and "Mom, I'm so happy you made my favorite food!" all at the same meal.

On the one hand, I guess I get not demanding please and thank you and I'm sorry. In our house, when our kids demand something, we say "How can you ask me in a more loving way?" That might involve a please, a more pleasant tone, or a more gently worded request. Gratitude might be expressed by a thank you, a hug, or an "I love you". I'm OK with all of that. We don't demand apologies, but we do encourage them to "make peace" with one another, which again, can take many forms. I've heard please, thank you, and I'm sorry said too many times in a snotty way to really believe they have some kind of magic to them.

On the other hand, we model using those words in (what I hope is) a genuine way, and more often than not they mirror it back. When my kids throw their arms around me and say "Thank you, Mama, for taking me to the movies!" I don't lecture them on how they've chosen to express their gratitude. *That* seems rude to me. More often than not, I'll hug them back and thank them in return for having such a loving and thankful heart. What's more authentic than a child expressing love and gratitude? I just can't imagine correcting a child for that. It actually really makes my heart sad.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 
I say "please" "thank you" and "sorry" when appropriate to my son. I guess I do expect him to say it back-- it's the way we roll here. Politeness is for *everyone*, not just people outside the home. When I say it, I mean it, and I expect that of him, too.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

I DO, however, think that home is a place where everyone should be able to let their hair down a bit. And that sometimes includes not being the most polite, respectful, pleasant person on the planet to our loved ones. But... when we aren't as nice as we could be, it's only right to make amends later - with an apology, an explanation, doing something special for the person(s) we weren't so nice to. That's "polite". Polite doesn't always mean please, thank you and I'm sorry.


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## jlobe (May 1, 2009)

OK, I would be curious as the the age of OP kids. I know my views on this have changed as my children have gotten older and the number of kids increased. My DD is 6 now and DS is 4 and I think there is something universal in Please, Thank-you, and Sorry that show respect for other people who can't understand your code. How we do things at home becomes the standard they bring into other interactions and if they can't do it at home, others may not understand the spirit behind their actions in a different setting.

As for the "I'm sorry" I think that is very age dependent. For my 6 yo it's HARD to say "sorry" because it is an acknowledgement of hurting someone else and is embarassing. I don't need her to do it in front of a crowd, I don't need to shame her into it and I don't need to threaten her, but when she has hurt my feelings I believe it's important for her to say and acknowledge that.

As my kids are older and I start to feel like a manager of needs and lives of a variety of people, I get frustrated and when I spend an afternoon cooking a meal there is nothing like "thanks mom (for making the effort of looking after us)" even if they haven't eaten a bite.


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## kittykat2481 (Nov 7, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jlobe* 
OK, I would be curious as the the age of OP kids. I know my views on this have changed as my children have gotten older and the number of kids increased. My DD is 6 now and DS is 4 and I think there is something universal in Please, Thank-you, and Sorry that show respect for other people who can't understand your code. How we do things at home becomes the standard they bring into other interactions and if they can't do it at home, others may not understand the spirit behind their actions in a different setting.

As for the "I'm sorry" I think that is very age dependent. For my 6 yo it's HARD to say "sorry" because it is an acknowledgement of hurting someone else and is embarassing. I don't need her to do it in front of a crowd, I don't need to shame her into it and I don't need to threaten her, but when she has hurt my feelings I believe it's important for her to say and acknowledge that.

As my kids are older and I start to feel like a manager of needs and lives of a variety of people, I get frustrated and when I spend an afternoon cooking a meal there is nothing like "thanks mom (for making the effort of looking after us)" even if they haven't eaten a bite.

I expect my 2 1/2 year old to be polite. This includes please, thank you, and I'm sorry. As a result of this, he will often be heard saying (unprompted), "Mommy, may I have some milk please? Thank you!" and "I'm sorry, Mommy! I didn't mean to do that." I say the same things to him. Maybe it's because I'm old fashioned, or maybe it's a southern thing, but I can't help but feel like if he's happy, loved, polite, and respectful, I must be doing something right.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scottishmommy* 
Also, those words may seem rote and automatic, but it's really obvious when they are absent.











I'm currently working on teaching my 44 yo. husband to consistently say "please."

It would have been a lot easier if his mama had taught him, instead.


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## soso-lynn (Dec 11, 2007)

I completely agree with the OP.

I have actually explained in great details to my daughter (will be 6 next month) how please and thank you and such are expected as automatic responses that simply show that the people involved have some common social behaviour rather than showing true gratitude or appreciation. I showed her how people who do not conform to those rules come off as weird, impolite or even threatening.

Those expected behaviours have absolutely nothing to do with genuine expressions of gratitude even though they can sometimes share the same words. In short, routine use of please and thank you only shows how polite someone is, not how thankful they are.

Also, I think that kids should not be expected to actually feel those things for most things their parents do for them.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soso-lynn* 
I completely agree with the OP.

I have actually explained in great details to my daughter (will be 6 next month) how please and thank you and such are expected as automatic responses that simply show that the people involved have some common social behaviour rather than showing true gratitude or appreciation. I showed her how people who do not conform to those rules come off as weird, impolite or even threatening.

Those expected behaviours have absolutely nothing to do with genuine expressions of gratitude even though they can sometimes share the same words. In short, routine use of please and thank you only shows how polite someone is, not how thankful they are.

Also, I think that kids should not be expected to actually feel those things for most things their parents do for them.

To me saying "please" "thank you" or whatever aren't necessarily expressions of gratitude. They are meant to say " hey I acknowledge _your_ action", not an expression of the way _I_ feel. "Please" means if _you_ please, "Thank you" means thanks to you[/I], not "I feel grateful". If a child asks for milk _please_, they are acknowledging the fact that the other person is doing something for them. It doesn't have anything to do with the feelings of the child. I always say thank you to dh when he does something for me to let him know that I recognize his action. I tell him I love him to express the way I feel about him.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 









I'm currently working on teaching my 44 yo. husband to consistently say "please."

why? why does he have to say please to you?

as a role model for kids? or is it something you want to hear?

why do you wanna hear that? do you feel if he doesnt use them he is not polite?

this discussion has become really interesting.

and to those who are asking why those terms - its two things. 1. they have become 'hallmark' terms. for instance 'sorry' as a blanket term. oops sorry i killed you. oops sorry i spilt water on your table. 2. also because those are 'social conditioning' terms. doesnt mean they are not authentic, but more often than not, i find my dd uses them as a reflex reaction. to others. doesnt mean sometimes they are not authentic, doesnt mean they are ALWAYS used as a 'reflex' reaction.

now here is the deal with 'hate'. hate was used by my dd when she was between 3 to 5. it was something between her and me. she never used that with anyone else. the reason why i didnt use the same principle with that word is because its not a social conditioning term.

she needed the place to say it. me as her mom knew she didnt mean it. she knew why she was using it. i knew why she was using it. more than intent to hurt, i saw it as a 'i need to be heard' intention.

the term hate today has translated into glares and 'mom you are not listening to me' or mom you are not getting what i am saying'.

that is why i did not focus on hate so much. or ask her to find other words. plus just the fact she was using it and i wasnt focusing on her hurting my feelings - doesnt mean she was going to grow up to be a child who hurts people.

and the reason why i celebrated inside was because she felt comfortable enough to show me her bad side too.

dang perhaps i am not communicating well and using words that will make it clear what i am trying to say here.


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## jlobe (May 1, 2009)

I understand what you are saying. i do believe that I can acknowledge the emotion causing my child to say hurtful things and be a safe place to have the conversation; however, I do feel it's important to say that it is not ok to say that she 'hates' me. As her parent it's important to tell her how it makes me feel... that it hurts my feelings. Her responses, no matter how authentic, do impact other people. I can understand what the true emotions are but others may not and part of what I feel my job is, is to help her understand that what she says and does is not just about her.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
why? why does he have to say please to you?

as a role model for kids? or is it something you want to hear?

why do you wanna hear that? do you feel if he doesnt use them he is not polite?

Children who don't say please/thank you drive me insane. It is just rude. It's common courtesy. I have never met an otherwise agreeable child who was simply lacking in manners. Every single one has had entitlement issues. It's not fair to set your child up for such an image, IMO.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wookie* 
north america: "i'm your mom but i'm also an individual *so i deserve as much respect as the next person* and saying please and thanks is a way to show it."

asia: "i'm your mom so everything i do is for you. when you ask for seconds it shows me you appreciated my food. when you hug me it shows you love me. please don't embarass me by using formal titles like please and thanks."

I don't think that you're saying that Indian mothers are less deserving of respect from their families than American mothers are... Are you?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid* 
I love this- thanks for sharing your thoughts. You are so right when you say it is cultural and it makes sense that it is tied into North America's *overly independent-minded society.*

Overly? We western women have battled hard to gain the freedom to be independent minded. I think it's one reason the standard of living for women and girls in western society is so very much higher than it is elsewhere in the world.

That's only sort of a tangent.

Meemee, I get most of what you're saying about please and thank you. When my kids were little I didn't need to hear it, their happy faces were enough. I didn't miss it. I totally get what you mean about it sounding inauthentic sometimes. They aren't actually "magic" words.

But I think that can come back to bite a mom, particularly, in the butt.

And I'm going to have to try to articulate this better, later. I'm having a hard time focusing...


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wookie* 

north america: "i'm your mom but i'm also an individual so i deserve as much respect as the next person and saying please and thanks is a way to show it."

asia: "i'm your mom so everything i do is for you. when you ask for seconds it shows me you appreciated my food. when you hug me it shows you love me. please don't embarass me by using formal titles like please and thanks."

I think though, that this paints an incomplete picture here. While children in some parts of asia may be rescued from having their authenticity hampered in the manner of using formal "words"...let's be real here--there is a trade off for a LOT of pressure and obligation in other ways. Admittedly, I am not an insider to Indian culture (I do have a lot of Indian friends, but that's not the same), but my BFF in high school was Korean and all my friends were Korean practically and I was around their families enough to be "accepted". Perhaps they were not required to use American words of respect, but you had better believe that they WERE absolutely expected to show a level of deference and obligation to elder members of the family that went way beyond expecting someone to speak politely when asking for something.

Being biracial (white and asian), I keep a lot of (literally) mixed company. I've seen a lot of cultural clashes, because of the very strong sense of filial obligation that is "cultural" amongst first-gen or immigrant asian families vs. the more relaxed over the lifespan Americanized folks.

I am all for exploring and respecting different cultures...but you can't boil it down to a nugget and then extrapolate. I don't think it's at all accurate to imply that there is not just as much parental-to-child expectation of respect and deference on the asian side. I think perhaps there is more, at least in my observation. Even if no one ever says please or thank you.

IME the moms who live "everything I do is for you" also tend to have very strong expectations about what is going to happen once their children are grown ups, it's a sacrifice up front with expected reward later.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Please often sounds overly formal and formulaic in a familiar context. We rarely use it at home, except when tired and um formal because voice tone isn't up to expressing the level of warmth felt.

Littler kids sometime use it since they have less control over their inflections.

I love to say thank you. We say it alot here.

I didn't read all the replies, but I don't give a tinker's dam really whether other kids say please and thank you to me. I like hanging out with kids generally though and don't expect them to be overwhelmingly grateful for doing stuff for them.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
Children who don't say please/thank you drive me insane. It is just rude. It's common courtesy. I have never met an otherwise agreeable child who was simply lacking in manner.

see this is the part i am trying to understand.

why?

why does it make you so mad?

because its common courtesy? i can understand that.

but you. i am talking about you. why does it make you so mad.

its not children that make me mad. i am just the opposite of you. its other elders who make children say it. every single time. sometimes the child is immersed in something they are doing and dont use it. they dont have to say it every single time.

really i dont care if a child says ty, please or sorry to me. really. however i understand that's just me. however i really havent met any child who never used those words.

what makes me mad is that i hear it from all children, but i dont hear it from adults. i have worked at so many places and there is no appreciation of the workers. not all but the majority.

i dont even work to say thank you or good job all the time. but man it would be soooooooooooooooooo good if they once in a while pointed out something specific and said some words of appreciation.

its interesting. i dont really expect manners. from adults or children. but once in a while if someone said how much they appreciate or even a genuine thank you - that is more meaningful to me than a thousand thank yous.

however with strangers i can understand wanting manners.

but with family or friends. i know my friend is grateful that i could give her a ride. she doesnt have to say thank you to me. but i dont tell her that. instead i say that to my kid.

in a way i feel so sad when i hear her be so polite to everyone. i look at her and see how well she has been conditioned.


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## SiobhanAoife (Jun 10, 2008)

I don't ask my (very young, very verbal) daughter to say that she's sorry because she's a toddler - I'd be requiring her to lie! She has, however, picked up several "manners" sorts of phrases simply from hearing them used. My absolute favorite is when she wants to get by you and you are in the way -- she'll start with "podden me!" and if that fails, she'll go to "podden me! outta de way peez!" (she's only 21 months so 'r' and 'l' still haven't shown up yet).


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

awwwwwwwwwwwww that is the cutest thing ever. awwwww around 2 years old is my favourite age. actually until 2. after that they lose that 'something' - babyness?


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SiobhanAoife* 
I don't ask my (very young, very verbal) daughter to say that she's sorry because she's a toddler - I'd be requiring her to lie! She has, however, picked up several "manners" sorts of phrases simply from hearing them used. My absolute favorite is when she wants to get by you and you are in the way -- she'll start with "podden me!" and if that fails, she'll go to "podden me! outta de way peez!" (she's only 21 months so 'r' and 'l' still haven't shown up yet).

ADORABLE!


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
I think though, that this paints an incomplete picture here. While children in some parts of asia may be rescued from having their authenticity hampered in the manner of using formal "words"...let's be real here--there is a trade off for a LOT of pressure and obligation in other ways. Admittedly, I am not an insider to Indian culture (I do have a lot of Indian friends, but that's not the same), but my BFF in high school was Korean and all my friends were Korean practically and I was around their families enough to be "accepted". Perhaps they were not required to use American words of respect, but you had better believe that they WERE absolutely expected to show a level of deference and obligation to elder members of the family that went way beyond expecting someone to speak politely when asking for something.

Being biracial (white and asian), I keep a lot of (literally) mixed company. I've seen a lot of cultural clashes, because of the very strong sense of filial obligation that is "cultural" amongst first-gen or immigrant asian families vs. the more relaxed over the lifespan Americanized folks.

I am all for exploring and respecting different cultures...but you can't boil it down to a nugget and then extrapolate. I don't think it's at all accurate to imply that there is not just as much parental-to-child expectation of respect and deference on the asian side. I think perhaps there is more, at least in my observation. Even if no one ever says please or thank you.

IME the moms who live "everything I do is for you" also tend to have very strong expectations about what is going to happen once their children are grown ups, it's a sacrifice up front with expected reward later.









:


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## trancechylde (Apr 14, 2008)

Umm yes we most certainly do expect "Please" and "Thank you" and "Sorry" from our kids, just as they can expect it from us.

Manners are quite important in our house, and we all deserve respect from each other as much as anyone outside the house and family. Look, I'm not holding a blushing, squirming, embarrassed 2 year old there forcing him to say thanks to the lady in the store that said he was cute or anything, but when and where it's appropriate, they are "encouraged" to say it.

I cringe when I hear or see kids say things like "Give me juice!" or "Move!" to their parents.

These are small common courtesies that mean a lot to most people in day to day life, and I feel proud when my son says "Thank you" unprompted.

"_in a way i feel so sad when i hear her be so polite to everyone. i look at her and see how well she has been conditioned._"

Sorry but I think this is a tad dramatic;, it's just "Thank You", not brainwashing cult or anything, sigh.


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## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
I think though, that this paints an incomplete picture here. While children in some parts of asia may be rescued from having their authenticity hampered in the manner of using formal "words"...let's be real here--there is a trade off for a LOT of pressure and obligation in other ways. ...........
IME the moms who live "everything I do is for you" also tend to have very strong expectations about what is going to happen once their children are grown ups, it's a sacrifice up front with expected reward later.

I definitely agree too. The amount of deference shown to parents, or even the most distant relations astounds my North American self. And God help my friends if they do not, the drama that will unfold would be on a nuclear scale. Like on the food issue, if you go to a family party in several Asian cultures that I know of and you don't eat, you're disrespectful. You don't take off your shoes, you're disrespectful. You don't drive your parents 100KM to their destination and back home at 11pm, despite the fact that you're exhausted and just returned from taking care of their relatives 100KM in that direction, you're disrespectful. It's not even a question! If you don't address someone by the proper honourific, which isn't necessarily Mr. or Mrs., but Auntie or Uncle, you're disrespectful. And it's not just a "Oh that kid is so rude!" it's an "OMG, can you believe that? What kind of family is that? This is going to be a mark!"

So while manners in terms of p's and q's might not be involved, there is a whole set of cultural etiquette and fallout from lack of observation of that etiquette that would probably make most people's heads spin.


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## Bellabaz (Feb 27, 2008)

We don't force but we use them with our kids and usually dd1 will say please and thank you. Actually I do sometimes ask her to say please. I think it is important that she is treated with respect but also that she treats others with it and for us this begins in the home. So if she says "I want water!" I will say "Thats great, but how do we ask for something?" or "Could you ask me in a more polite manner please?".

I don't nor understand how you can, force someone to say sorry. I think my dd1 is only just starting to grasp sorry, but we do always say it to her.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
see this is the part i am trying to understand.

why?

why does it make you so mad?

because its common courtesy? i can understand that.

but you. i am talking about you. why does it make you so mad.

its not children that make me mad. i am just the opposite of you. its other elders who make children say it. every single time. sometimes the child is immersed in something they are doing and dont use it. they dont have to say it every single time.

really i dont care if a child says ty, please or sorry to me. really. however i understand that's just me. however i really havent met any child who never used those words.

what makes me mad is that i hear it from all children, but i dont hear it from adults. i have worked at so many places and there is no appreciation of the workers. not all but the majority.

i dont even work to say thank you or good job all the time. but man it would be soooooooooooooooooo good if they once in a while pointed out something specific and said some words of appreciation.

its interesting. i dont really expect manners. from adults or children. but once in a while if someone said how much they appreciate or even a genuine thank you - that is more meaningful to me than a thousand thank yous.

however with strangers i can understand wanting manners.

but with family or friends. i know my friend is grateful that i could give her a ride. she doesnt have to say thank you to me. but i dont tell her that. instead i say that to my kid.

in a way i feel so sad when i hear her be so polite to everyone. i look at her and see how well she has been conditioned.

The reason I like to hear please and TY is because it's less demanding. What I hear you saying is that child should only acknowledge a person's kindness when they are struck with gratitude or when it is convenient for them. In adults that's called a sense of entitlement. I'm not comfortable with the idea that we should only say "thanks" when we are really and truly appreciative. I say thank you to make other people feel good, not because I am overwhelmed with gratitude on a daily basis. I'm not overwhelmed with gratitude when I say thank you to a waitress, or a grocery bagger, or any number of the people who help me throughout the day. I am, however, conscious of the fact that they are people and have feelings and should be acknowledged for their work. It has nothing to do with me...it has to do with them. For example imagine if you are a barista at a coffee shop, and there are two customers, A and B. A comes in daily to get a cup of coffee. He knows that the barista will give him coffee as long as he pays. Buying coffe is routine for customer A. Now let's say that customer B only drinks coffee at home but realizes one morning that she ran out. Customer B now has a serious headache and drags herself to the coffee shop, knowing that that coffee will cure her headache. When the barista gives her coffe she is filled with gratitude and tells him he is the best and says thank you over and over again. Now in my mind the barista deserves to be thanked by both customer A and B, eventhough at that moment customer B is the one who really feels gratitude. Afterall the barista does the same thing for both of them, it's just that B wants the coffee more. I personally stop to say thank you to people because it pulls me out of my own little world. I could be a jerk and not say TY, but I worry that people will feel less human if I don't. I don't mean a fake TY either. I mean a thank you with eye contact and a smile. I plan to raise my kids to do the same thing.


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## jlobe (May 1, 2009)

Quote:

I personally stop to say thank you to people because it pulls me out of my own little world. I could be a jerk and not say TY, but I worry that people will feel less human if I don't. I don't mean a fake TY either. I mean a thank you with eye contact and a smile. I plan to raise my kids to do the same thing.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
why? why does he have to say please to you?


For example,

"Do something with the strawberries before they rot" is a command.

"Please do something with the strawberries before they rot" is a request.

I'm tired of being commanded to do things by the person who is supposed to be my equal partner. That's why I'm insisting on please from my dh.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Yes, as scottishmommy said, THANK YOU and PLEASE are for _other_ people.

I can show true delight and excitement at a gift I receive from my husband and he very well may be content with the fact that I am showing my pleasure and "thanks" by my heartfelt reaction to it. But words like "I love it!" show MY love for an object. "I wanted this so much!" show MY desire for an object. "I can't believe you got this!" show MY amazement that I was remembered. "This means so much to me!" expresses MY delight, again, at an OBJECT.

But "Thank You, Thank You, Thank You, for this wonderful, amazing, awesome gift!" is telling my husband *I* thank *YOU* for this, and *I* thank *YOU* for thinking of me.

In most all other expressions, I hadn't expressed any thanks to HIM, as a person. But Thank You does just that.


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scottishmommy* 
The reason I like to hear please and TY is because it's less demanding. What I hear you saying is that child should only acknowledge a person's kindness when they are struck with gratitude or when it is convenient for them. In adults that's called a sense of entitlement. I'm not comfortable with the idea that we should only say "thanks" when we are really and truly appreciative. I say thank you to make other people feel good, not because I am overwhelmed with gratitude on a daily basis. I'm not overwhelmed with gratitude when I say thank you to a waitress, or a grocery bagger, or any number of the people who help me throughout the day. I am, however, conscious of the fact that they are people and have feelings and should be acknowledged for their work. It has nothing to do with me...it has to do with them. For example imagine if you are a barista at a coffee shop, and there are two customers, A and B. A comes in daily to get a cup of coffee. He knows that the barista will give him coffee as long as he pays. Buying coffe is routine for customer A. Now let's say that customer B only drinks coffee at home but realizes one morning that she ran out. Customer B now has a serious headache and drags herself to the coffee shop, knowing that that coffee will cure her headache. When the barista gives her coffe she is filled with gratitude and tells him he is the best and says thank you over and over again. Now in my mind the barista deserves to be thanked by both customer A and B, eventhough at that moment customer B is the one who really feels gratitude. Afterall the barista does the same thing for both of them, it's just that B wants the coffee more. I personally stop to say thank you to people because it pulls me out of my own little world. I could be a jerk and not say TY, but I worry that people will feel less human if I don't. I don't mean a fake TY either. I mean a thank you with eye contact and a smile. I plan to raise my kids to do the same thing.

I was trying to type up something that explains how I felt, and couldn't figure out how to say it. But I think you said it perfectly. Saying please and thank you isn't about me, it's about the other person.

When out in public, I say please and thank you all the time. In most of these cases, I am not overwhelmed with gratitude. In many of these cases, to be perfectly honest, I don't even really care. The person standing next to the elevator buttons who asks me what floor? I don't particularly care. But he did a nice thing in offering to press the button and saying thank you acknowledges that. The person right in front of me who gives the door an extra little push open so that if sort of hurry up a bit I'll catch it? Hardly went out of his way, and I'm perfectly able to open my own door. But I don't care how wrapped up either of us are in what we're doing: it's still a basic social grace to notice other people and acknowledge them. He did this by pushing the door, I did this by grabbing it and thanking him.

If I didn't say thank you in either of those cases, it does smack of entitlement. I agree with that too.

Another way to look at it is in terms of giving a gift. I think we've all received gifts that we don't like. We still say thank you when dotty old Great Aunt Ethel sends us a picture her dog drew: no matter the intentions or the gift it would be very rude not to. So I don't see how it isn't rude to not say thank you for a smaller "gift": holding a door open or pressing an elevator button or the barrista giving you your cup of coffee.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
where they burst out saying TY when they dont really want to say it, just because an adult wants to hear it.


This makes it seem like you don't want your child to care about other peoples feelings. Do you think adults don't have feelings? Is it wrong for an adult to want to be acknowledged because they did something nice for your kid? Part of social conditioning is to help children learn empathy. We are an incredibly self centered species, we don't need to reinforce that unfortunate trait in our children.


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## soso-lynn (Dec 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
Children who don't say please/thank you drive me insane. It is just rude. It's common courtesy. I have never met an otherwise agreeable child who was simply lacking in manners. Every single one has had entitlement issues. It's not fair to set your child up for such an image, IMO.

Technically, children are entitled to the things adult do for them...


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soso-lynn* 
Technically, children are entitled to the things adult do for them...

Children are entitled to food, shelter, clothing and education. Everything else is a gift they should acknowledge on some level.


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## MadiMamacita (Jan 29, 2006)

I have skimmed the responses so far.. I'm having a hard time phrasing this so that I don't sound like a crazy and demanding Miss Manners, so bear with me!
We do sign with my pre-verbal 18 month old. He picked up a few nouns (water, food, banana, shoes.. etc) and I was content to have him do those signs or point to what he wanted. After a few weeks of that, I felt like we were both ready for the next step, and I showed him the sign for please. It makes me feel a little less like I'm being ordered around, and I think its important to lay the foundation for asking politely for what you would like. I would have a hard time with an adult grunting a command at me with no pleasantries like please, and I have a hard time with children who do the same. I work at a preschool and the kids all preface their requests with a "please" most of the time. I also try to be mindful of my own phrasing and remembering to say please, thank you and sorry to children because I think the modeling is so important.

and ITA with the PP who said that she likes to thank the bag boy at the grocery store, the barista at the coffee place, whoever, because its just plain nice to acknowledge the person who i feel like most people just ignore. Its just so easy to do.. I feel like basic manners (please, thank you, sorry/excuse me) just set the tone for the interaction. Its easy enough to lay the foundation for a polite interaction, so why not just do it?

I think it is rude when you are in traffic and you let someone in or let someone cross the road and they don't wave or somehow express gratitude for the action. Otherwise it does feel like they think they are entitled.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soso-lynn* 
Technically, children are entitled to the things adult do for them...

I think children are entitled to the deepest love from their families, however...

DSD is not entitled to a ride from me to the mall with her friends. She is not entitled to the school trip to a foreign country that her dad and I worked very hard to pay for; she is not entitled to a new laptop, or a new comforter for her bed, the old ones would do just fine; she is not entitled to that specific cake mix that she really wanted; she can make her own pb&j sandwich, and she is a healthy 17 y.o. who can pour her own milk, she is NOT entitled to me handing it to her. Just because she means the world to me, and I want to see her happy, and don't mind doing big and little things for her, doesn't mean that I want her to have the sense of entitlement about these things.


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scottishmommy* 
Children are entitled to food, shelter, clothing and education. Everything else is a gift they should acknowledge on some level.


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## Tway (Jul 1, 2010)

I've been following this thread and thought I'd add my 2 cents' worth. DD is only 9 months, and still way too young to employ her p's and q's, but I always say "please" and "thank you" to her throughout the day to get her accustomed to hearing it.

To me, saying such polite words means acknowledging what someone has done for you, and being grateful for their effort. And far too many kids these days EXPECT things rather than being grateful for them--and I honestly think feeling grateful is one of the most wonderful feelings in the world. I mean, someone has been nice to you just because... isn't that wonderful? How can we deprive kids of that?

And last week at our local pool, a 6-year-old tossed his baseball over a fence and screamed to a stranger "Hey, lady, the ball!"--and I heard about 5 parents around me mutter "please". His mother looked horrified. He looked annoyed.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
why? why does he have to say please to you?

as a role model for kids? or is it something you want to hear?

why do you wanna hear that? do you feel if he doesnt use them he is not polite?

this discussion has become really interesting.

and to those who are asking why those terms - its two things. 1. they have become 'hallmark' terms. for instance 'sorry' as a blanket term. oops sorry i killed you. oops sorry i spilt water on your table. 2. also because those are 'social conditioning' terms. doesnt mean they are not authentic, but more often than not, i find my dd uses them as a reflex reaction. to others. doesnt mean sometimes they are not authentic, doesnt mean they are ALWAYS used as a 'reflex' reaction.

now here is the deal with 'hate'. hate was used by my dd when she was between 3 to 5. it was something between her and me. she never used that with anyone else. the reason why i didnt use the same principle with that word is because its not a social conditioning term.

she needed the place to say it. me as her mom knew she didnt mean it. she knew why she was using it. i knew why she was using it. more than intent to hurt, i saw it as a 'i need to be heard' intention.

the term hate today has translated into glares and 'mom you are not listening to me' or mom you are not getting what i am saying'.

that is why i did not focus on hate so much. or ask her to find other words. plus just the fact she was using it and i wasnt focusing on her hurting my feelings - doesnt mean she was going to grow up to be a child who hurts people.

and the reason why i celebrated inside was because she felt comfortable enough to show me her bad side too.

dang perhaps i am not communicating well and using words that will make it clear what i am trying to say here.

I think hate and glaring is something that is socially conditioned just as polite manners are conditioned. You don't have to directly teach a kid these things, they just seem to learn them by being part of a family and participating in society. Saying I hate you is a common thing for that age (many parenting books address it because it is something that almost all kids do in our society) and glaring is also very common. Kids hear it from other kids and see glaring moms all around them and they learn that it is okay to say hateful messages or glare. In preschool it is so cute when they do the glare, offer choices to friends or their dolls, and mimmick the other adult behaviors they see and want to practice through dramatic play. Just because you didn't teach her outright doesn't mean she wasn't affected by the language she heard when she was out and about and by the way she saw people act towards her or other kids when they were angry. Many kids also tell their parents that they aren't hearing them or listening to what they say at this age. They also tend to speak with blunt language, negotiate, and focus on fair and unfair. I think that it is good to pick and choose the values you like from society and do away with as much social conditioning as possible. What I am not understanding is accepting the negative behavior that she has been socially conditioned to exhibit (because of the exposure to it at home, in daycare, at the park, or at school) as a valid expression but not accepting the polite behavior that she is also witnessing when she is with other people as a valid expression even though it isn't the expression you would choose.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scottishmommy* 
Children are entitled to food, shelter, clothing and education. Everything else is a gift they should acknowledge on some level.

aha!!! i get it. the whole reason why this is all coming up for me is i am reading a lot on child rearing and family interaction for my anthropology class for both modern and indigenous cultures.. and i am connecting to it because it reflects my philosophy.

and i am trying to figure out why we need to say those words. most of the world actually dont use the words or the need for something spoken. there is acknowledgement at some point not all the time, but its not necessarily vocal. its starting to become common in business communities.

ooh i really resonated with the barista comparison that a pp made.

i have been a server at a private club. it is my job to serve these people. i dont need to hear a thank you from them. i mean i am doing my job whether they say please or not. for me the please is unnecessary. doesnt mean they are ungrateful creatures.

however many did say thank you. every. single. time. many nothing. and many stopped noticed and talked to me. not necessarily saying TY. but making conversation and showing interest. and yet out of all of these examples there was hardly any genuineness. a few did show genuineness. they did what society expected them to do. and i was ok with all the situations.

with my dd and my friends i know how they feel. i dont need to be reminded of it.

so really what is happening here in this thread is one culture meeting another.

i was raised to 'be polite'. acknowledge and express the words. and i wondered why did it matter. from my perspective. i looked at my family and friends and tried to figure out could i function in a society where acknowledgement of this kind was not necessary.

lol as if on cue my roommate had a big fight with his teenagers right now over saying ty to me for cooking their food. the big fight is a whole different story. but when one of the boys friend takes a benadryl before he eats as he is allergic to onion do i really need a TY? even a genuine one. just the fact that he is willing to go thru the pain because his friend told him the food was delicious isnt that gratitude enough.

i recall ex and i didnt use those words either. anyways i figured i could live in a society where there is no form of TY, sorry or please. or poddon me. but like i have said before that's just me. wondered if others could do the same.


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## sleepingbeauty (Sep 1, 2007)

We practice saying these things with the girls, including to each other.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

I don't understand the idea that manners compromises authenticity. When I say thank you, I FEEL thankful. When I say sorry, I FEEL sorry. And I think that my two year old is the same! I like him to say please and thank you, but I have never really, enforced it. he just does it. And also, I think its also about teaching your children what are appropriate feelings. For example, if my son is taking a total fit because he wants a blue cup instead of a red cup, I basically tell him that its no big deal and there's no reason to be upset about it, then i ignore the fit until he gets that its no big deal. this is teaching him that it doesnt make sense to feel upset because of something so trivial. I also try to teach him that its good to feel thankful when someone gives you something, and that its good to feel sorry when you do something you aren't supposed to, and say so.


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

I expect that my children will say please/thank-you/you're-welcome to EVERYONE-- me, family, friends, strangers. It could be my very southern upbringing, my mom (not an overbearing woman and very AP in her parenting) had that as one of her "things", along with "sir" and "ma'am" to elders. I think it's a great habit to be courteous, and I don't see any reason to not be courteous even to close family. I say "please" and "thank you" to my husband (and he does to me), even though we aren't formal with each other, rotfl-- just because it shows respect, love, good old-fashioned manners.

ETA: I also will absolutely say "please" and "thank you" to my children, as well- I already do with the one that is already born, even though she isn't very verbal yet.


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *no5no5* 
By "expect" do you mean "force" or do you mean simply that you think it will happen? Because I would never force DD to say any of those things, but she does. I say them to her, and she says them to me.

Have you actively tried to discourage your child from using those words with you??? I don't see why you would do that. Being polite to one's friends and family is just as important as being polite to strangers, IMO, if not more important.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

I see this as a cultural thing, but many cultures are much more polite than typical American culture. I went to Baja a few years ago and many of the Mexican people who live there see you and say "good morning" or "good day", depending on the time of day, so I did the same. I made it a point to be as polite as possible in their culture

I do want my children to have nice manners, saying please and thank you is showing an appreciation, my G-ma NEVER says these things and it bugs me sooooooo much. She expects those around her to serve her. I see nothing wrong with saying please or thank you.

I've been a server in the past and I'd much rather have people at least appreciate my efforts a bit, but I'm one to say these things because I don't like to feel like I'm being rude.

I don't get your concept


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## mariamadly (Jul 28, 2009)

I value formality, especially among those closest to one another. It conveys warm intent but also, when needed, a promise not to be intrusive. The more intimate I am with someone, the more assured I need to be about my privacy being respected. So in cases of huge pain or grief, when someone's not yet ready to discuss an issue, at least they hear that I'm concerned for them and that they set the pace about exposing themselves to me. It may sound like a superficial platitude -- a ritualistic "I'm sorry" (meant sympathetically here, not apologetically as OP raised, but it's still "manners") -- but it's an offer to be whatever they need me to be, whenever that may happen for them.

In a less emotionally intense, more day-to-day context, I use please and thank you every chance I get. We raised our boys speaking with them as politely as possible. When they sounded abrupt asking for something, we wouldn't hold off on providing it, but we'd sometimes include a mild "Please say 'please'" with it. We wanted to teach them a language that would let other people know they were making an effort to show them consideration; so like many PPs, we made it about the recipients.

In our family, the words "please" and "thank you" have been consistent shorthand in a respectful context, not substitutes for authenticity or slavery to some evil Borg known as "societal expectations." My sons are gentlemen of 17 and 20 now, and their automatic use of certain words conveys an effort at thoughtfulness for everyone with whom they interact.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
aha!!! i get it. the whole reason why this is all coming up for me is i am reading a lot on child rearing and family interaction for my anthropology class for both modern and indigenous cultures.. and i am connecting to it because it reflects my philosophy.

and i am trying to figure out why we need to say those words. most of the world actually dont use the words or the need for something spoken. there is acknowledgement at some point not all the time, but its not necessarily vocal. its starting to become common in business communities.
.

I understand your efforts, but I think you are taking things hugely out of context.

The whole system, be it American, or not, is usually constructed of million little links that are dependent on each other, and you must recognize all of them as a whole. Just like someone else's example: I might not be required to say thank you to my parents today, but I am expected to follow their decisions for MY life even as an adult.

Why not appreciate every culture for what it is and see how manners fit into it?

Here is a fun link that talks about what may be considered rude in some cultures. Does it mean one should ignore people's feelings when they visit those countries, and insist that manners don't matter? Why not embrace it?

http://www.fekids.com/img/kln/flash/...utTheWorld.swf
http://www.eturbonews.com/12032/mind...s-around-world
http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/docz...ude/world.html

I pass a toll - booth, I say thank you to the person hanging me the change. I don't have the time to stay and chat. I get the fact that they are paid to work there, but it would seem rude to just take the change and drive away. "Thank you" seems to fit just right.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

I haven't read everything.

Dh and I are both with the OP on this one. We don't expect any sort of formality from our kids. They both know, and give, that formality outside the family but please and thank you and other such phrases are not required or expected. They do happen mind you, but it's just so much more meaningful when one of the just randomly says "Thank you!" because they feel it at that moment rather than the mindless reflexive "thank you" that often comes from people who saying because they were taught it was polite.

That being said, DS loves saying thank you. He doesn't always say it when I do something for him, but he does say it when he really means it. Like this morning I woke up with him staring at me, he grinned and said "thank you" and gave me a kiss for no reason other then being thankful. DD just likes giving hugs, she does that far more than she say says "thank you", the hug just says it all anyway.


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 
I pass a toll - booth, I say thank you to the person hanging me the change. I don't have the time to stay and chat. I get the fact that they are paid to work there, but it would seem rude to just take the change and drive away. "Thank you" seems to fit just right.

Ha, I do this, too. But for me it's just an expression of acknowledging that it's a human being, not a machine. Perhaps because I've been a waitress in the past and have gotten that "you're an invisible machine-robot created to serve me and don't merit any basic human courtesy" thing, I always make an effort to at least demonstrate that everyone, of every profession, deserves some kind of acknowledgement.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
They do happen mind you, but it's just so much more meaningful when one of the just randomly says "Thank you!" because they feel it at that moment rather than the mindless reflexive "thank you" that often comes from people who saying because they were taught it was polite.

I don't think that anyone wants a "thank you" without sincerity, kwim?








I know I don't.









I do like the approach of teaching by example, and there is not argument there. What I don't get is discouraging someone from showing gratitude through a simple gesture of saying "thanks!"


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 
I don't think that anyone wants a "thank you" without sincerity, kwim?








I know I don't.









I do like the approach of teaching by example, and there is not argument there. What I don't get is discouraging someone from showing gratitude through a simple gesture of saying "thanks!"

When you make "Thank you" or some variation of it a required response to someone doing something for you, that results in many insincere "thank you"s because it becomes a reflexive action. No thought to it what so ever, just saying it because it was trained into them. No one wants an insincere "thank you" but that could be what you end up with if you aren't careful.


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## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

I haven't read the entire thread.

Yes, my children say please, thank you, you are welcome, I'm sorry and use any other well-mannered phrase appropriate to a given social situation. Manners are the lubricant that keep the social organization moving along easily and smoothly - whether it's domestic or not.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
When you make "Thank you" or some variation of it a required response to someone doing something for you, that results in many insincere "thank you"s because it becomes a reflexive action. No thought to it what so ever, just saying it because it was trained into them. No one wants an insincere "thank you" but that could be what you end up with if you aren't careful.

Well, my vote goes out to being careful then, and living life with sincerity and talking about meaning what we say vs. discouraging thank you's altogether.
I am not about to devalue other demonstrations of gratitude, be it a hug or a discussion. Would I rather have a hug from a kid? sure! Am I about to make a list of "proper and improper" ways to thank me? nope. I just want it to be meant, that's it.

I worked in a service industry, not for too long, but long enough to see that "thank you" makes a difference. It's a quick tool to let the other person know you recognized their effort in whatever has been done for you a moment ago. Not every action demands for an hour long "I appreciate you" conversation with a tearful hug at the end. Some actions are really small, some are very time consuming and complicated. There is a range in gratitude as well. "Thank you" is an acknowledgement of another person's small effort for your sake (paid or not, entitled or not), and of course there are bigger gestures than that. Why dismiss an expression of acknowledgement from your child, no matter how small?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
When you make "Thank you" or some variation of it a required response to someone doing something for you, that results in many insincere "thank you"s because it becomes a reflexive action. No thought to it what so ever, just saying it because it was trained into them. No one wants an insincere "thank you" but that could be what you end up with if you aren't careful.

I don't think most people have said it's required so much as that it's a nice habit to get into, because it makes people feel good to hear it. Something being reflexive doesn't make it insincere. Also, I don't want an insincere thank you from my own children, but I agree with PPs that the person working in the toll booth would probably rather hear that than nothing and be treated like a machine. There's a value to being used to saying "thank you" to people.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 
I worked in a service industry, not for too long, but long enough to see that "thank you" makes a difference.

This. It disgusts and appalls me how insensitive and "entitled" even some (well, MANY, at least in my area) employees have become.

At a checkout, it's very common to NEVER hear a simple "Thank You" from the cashier. Even when I say it first out of politeness (though why should I be thanking them for just having taken my money?







), still, nothing.

"Thank you!" I'll say, and I get a nod, nothing, or a "Yep."

Please. How rude can you get? (I call them the "Me Myself and I Generation.")

As for being reflexive, reflexive does not equal insincere.
When I am on the phone at work, and a coworker brings me the pen I left in the meeting room, I'll utter a quick "Thanks" - mostly reflexively but _still_ sincerely. It acknowleges his act quickly and easily.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 
I worked in a service industry, not for too long, but long enough to see that "thank you" makes a difference. It's a quick tool to let the other person know you recognized their effort in whatever has been done for you a moment ago.

I don't discourage my kids from saying "please" and "thank you", but I also don't agree with this quote. "Thank you" is, quite frequently, nothing but a trained-in reflex. I've been on the receiving end of hundreds of "thank you"s that didn't even remotely recognize the effort I'd put into something. Heck, some of the most unappreciative people I know are the freest with their verbal thanks. (For that matter, ds2, who is having a really hard time getting it through his head that it's not okay to hurt people and break stuff, is by far the freest and easiest with "sorry" of any of my kids. He'll say it at the drop of a hat, but it doesn't really seem to mean anything.)

I don't care, and never have, if someone says "please", "thank you" or "I'm sorry" to me. I care if people express appreciation or try to make amends or whatever, but the form those things take is really unimportant.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

I honestly don't care whether someone is "sincere" or "authentic" when thanking me for something. Maybe they feel deep gratitude, maybe they don't. It's not about them, it's about me. I appreciate that the person has acknowledged the service I've performed for them with the appropriate social convention.

If the person says, "Wow, I really appreciate that meal you brought over, it was delicious," of course I don't cavil because they didn't use the words "thank you." But there must be _some_ acknowledgement and TY is the universal one, the one most people use in casual situations, and the one I expect to hear from my kids.

I don't care whether a casual "thank you" is a "trained-in reflex." It's the way people get along in society without being considered entitled and rude. Which is something kids need to understand.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama* 
I honestly don't care whether someone is "sincere" or "authentic" when thanking me for something. Maybe they feel deep gratitude, maybe they don't. It's not about them, it's about me. I appreciate that the person has acknowledged the service I've performed for them with the appropriate social convention.

That's great. I don't feel that a trained in "thank you" acknowledges squat. If some people feel better, because they're interacting with someone whose parents made them say "thank you", I'm glad it improves their day. Personally, I get really, really tired of hearing words that are supposed to have meaning used without meaning dozens of times a day. "Thank you" is a near meaningless noise these days.

Quote:

If the person says, "Wow, I really appreciate that meal you brought over, it was delicious," of course I don't cavil because they didn't use the words "thank you." But there must be _some_ acknowledgement and TY is the universal one, the one most people use in casual situations, and the one I expect to hear from my kids.
That's fine. Everyone has their own views on this.

Quote:

I don't care whether a casual "thank you" is a "trained-in reflex." It's the way people get along in society without being considered entitled and rude. Which is something kids need to understand.
That's great. I've met all kinds of rude people with a huge sense of entitlement, who wouldn't _ever_ fail to say "thank you". So, I don't agree with this, either.

I've heard the comment multiple times that so-and-so was obviously "brought up right", because they have "good manners" (ie. have been trained to respond to certain stimuli with certain verbal responses). So, even many people who think those words are really important see them as a matter of training, not appreciation. I don't feel the fact that I mouth meaningless words in response to certain cues says _anything_ about whether or not I'm a polite, considerate, courteous person...because it doesn't. It means I was taught to use those words in response to certain situations and says no more about my level of courtesy than the fact that I call that clear liquid in a glass "water".

Everyone is entitled to rear their children in the way they see fit, of course. But, "please" and "thank you" do not demonstrate apprecation or a lack of sense of entitlement. If they did, then people who suffered from rudeness and entitlement wouldn't use them, and many of those people do.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

Stormbride, not clear on why you repeat "that's great" and "that's fine" in response to my comments when you clearly disagree with me entirely. Unless you are being sarcastic? I can appreciate that we have completely opposite views on this topic.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anastasiya* 
As for being reflexive, reflexive does not equal insincere.

This. There are many situations where I act reflexively but that doesn't mean my words/actions are lacking sincerity. When I receive the Eucharist at church I reflexively cross myself -- that doesn't mean my crossing is any less prayerful. When someone hugs me, I reflexively hug back, and if someone offers a welcoming handshake I offer my hand too, and in either case I'm genuinely trying to convey emotion. I know there are probably a ton more examples. I hate to think that my actions would be considered insincere just because they also happen to be reflexive.

Ever since first reading this thread I notice just how often I say please & thank you, and I guess it's more important to me than I realized. Not the specific words -- any words or actions or tone are fine to convey the same meaning -- but politeness in general, yes I guess it is important to me after all.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama* 
Stormbride, not clear on why you repeat "that's great" and "that's fine" in response to my comments when you clearly disagree with me entirely. Unless you are being sarcastic? I can appreciate that we have completely opposite views on this topic.

I'm not being sarcastic. I do think it's good that there are people who teach "please" and "thank you" and think they're important who _also_ care about courtesy, appreciation, etc. IME, there's so little correlation between the two that I actually have to remind myself sometimes that one actually _can_ use the words and still be appreciative and polite. I tend to assume people who always say "please" and "thank you" have just learned that those are good tools to manipulate people.

As you obviously disagree with me completey, and feel that there is a connection between the words and the sentiments (courtesy, appreciation, etc.), I am genuinely glad that you're teaching your kids these things, instead of just letting it slide, because it's too much work. I definitely know people who put value on "please" and "thank you", when directed at them, but who can't be bothered to make an effort to teach them to their kids. It baffles me, but I've seen it.

(I must admit that I didn't realize until re-reading my last post that I said "that's great" or "that's fine" in response to _every single part_ of your post that I quoted.







)

I honestly really dislike the emphasis on this stuff, and it does strike home, because dh is on Team "Say Please". It causes me stress, which is probably why I react as I do on these threads. I keep promising myself I'll avoid reading them, but I'm a compulsive reader, so I never manage to keep it.


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama* 
I honestly don't care whether someone is "sincere" or "authentic" when thanking me for something. Maybe they feel deep gratitude, maybe they don't. It's not about them, it's about me. I appreciate that the person has acknowledged the service I've performed for them with the appropriate social convention.

If the person says, "Wow, I really appreciate that meal you brought over, it was delicious," of course I don't cavil because they didn't use the words "thank you." But there must be _some_ acknowledgement and TY is the universal one, the one most people use in casual situations, and the one I expect to hear from my kids.

I don't care whether a casual "thank you" is a "trained-in reflex." It's the way people get along in society without being considered entitled and rude. Which is something kids need to understand.

I agree with everything you said.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anastasiya* 
As for being reflexive, reflexive does not equal insincere.

I think this is a core area of disagreement on this topic, actually. I can say a sincere "thank you" or a reflexive one, but not both. If it's simply a trained-in response to something, then I don't mean anything by it. If people enjoy hearing it, more power to them, but it doesn't mean anything.

Quote:

When I am on the phone at work, and a coworker brings me the pen I left in the meeting room, I'll utter a quick "Thanks" - mostly reflexively but _still_ sincerely. It acknowleges his act quickly and easily.
In that situation, my "thanks" would be quick, but it wouldn't be a reflex.

Oh, well - we can all agree to disagree. I have most of appropriate reflexes to make people think I'm a considerate person, and I'm pretty sure my kids will, too, so it doesn't really affect me one way or the other.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I think this is a core area of disagreement on this topic, actually. I can say a sincere "thank you" or a reflexive one, but not both. If it's simply a trained-in response to something, then I don't mean anything by it. If people enjoy hearing it, more power to them, *but it doesn't mean anything.*

I think it only doesn't mean anything if the person saying it doesn't mean it. I understand when people express disappointment over "thank you's" that are not meant. But what possible problem can one have with a "thank you" that is genuinely meant to acknowledge another person's effort? What possible harm comes from teaching your child to mean what they say?

I'm trying to understand everyone who's taking OP's point of view? Do you view it as meaningless and pointless to say "thank you" to a person that serves you at a restaurant? or helps you out in a store? or answers a question about directions when you are lost?

* Would you be okay if your child asked a friend for a toy, received it and walked off?
* Asked a person at a bus stop what time it is, received an answer and walked off?
* Asked a sibling for a favor, got what they wanted and walked off without acknowledging it on any level?
* Asked a waiter for a cup of juice, received it and ignored the waiter?
* Never said a thank you to their significant other?
* Grew up into a parent that never thanked their own child?

I guess I'm not okay with any of these scenarios, and I am naive to assume that others wouldn't be okay with them either, despite claiming that thank yous and pleases are unnecessary. Can a person choose other words to thank? Sure! But they DO need to choose SOME way to show that they recognize the effort of another person, right? Or is the assumption it's up to the other person to get over it?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 
I think it only doesn't mean anything if the person saying it doesn't mean it. I understand when people express disappointment over "thank you's" that are not meant. But what possible problem can one have with a "thank you" that is genuinely meant to acknowledge another person's effort? What possible harm comes from teaching your child to mean what they say?

I never said I had a problem with "thank yous" that are genuinely meant.

Quote:

I'm trying to understand everyone who's taking OP's point of view? Do you view it as meaningless and pointless to say "thank you" to a person that serves you at a restaurant? or helps you out in a store? or answers a question about directions when you are lost?
No. I appreciate all those things, so I say "thank you".

Quote:

* Would you be okay if your child asked a friend for a toy, received it and walked off?
* Asked a person at a bus stop what time it is, received an answer and walked off?
* Asked a sibling for a favor, got what they wanted and walked off without acknowledging it on any level?
* Asked a waiter for a cup of juice, received it and ignored the waiter?
* Never said a thank you to their significant other?
* Grew up into a parent that never thanked their own child?
If my child didn't appreciate any of those things, I'd have a problem with that. If he/she said "thank you", because I'd taught him/her to do so, and still didn't appreciate whatever it was, then I'd feel that I'd failed miserably. If he/she appreciated these things, and showed it, then I wouldn't care one iota whether he/she showed it by saying "thank you" or in some other way.

Quote:

I guess I'm not okay with any of these scenarios, and I am naive to assume that others wouldn't be okay with them either, despite claiming that thank yous and pleases are unnecessary. Can a person choose other words to thank? Sure! But they DO need to choose SOME way to show that they recognize the effort of another person, right? Or is the assumption it's up to the other person to get over it?
I'm talking specifically about saying "thank you" (and "please", but this has somehow ended up focused mostly on "thank you") and about saying it because we've been _taught_ to say it. It's meaningless. I get "please" and "thank you" when it means nothing all the time. It's a professional behaviour, for one thing, and people frequently say "thank you", because it's part of their job, and they'll get in trouble if they don't. You know what? I really, truly do not give a crap if the server thanks me for eating at their restaurant (can't think of a reason they should "appreciate" that we didn't want to do dishes, and they're the closest place to our house, yk?) or a cashier thanks me for needing groceries. They may mean it, but they have to say it, whether they mean it or not...meaningless noise.

If someone appreciates something, and wants to say "thank you", that's _great_. I can't imagine that I've ever suggested otherwise. However, if they're saying it simplly because mommy always required it, it's a meaningless noise. Some of the rudest people I've ever met _always_ say "please" and "thank you".


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Well, I for one think it's sad to assume that pleases and thank yous are done mostly out of conditioning and not out of sincerity. I cannot assume another's motive, so I choose instead to believe the best.

I know there are times when I've said these things rushed, seemingly absent mindendly, but still to some degree I was conscious of what I was saying and meant it. I would be very hurt if others just assumed I was in "robot mode" and was only saying those words to make meaningless noise.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anastasiya* 
Well, I for one think it's sad to assume that pleases and thank yous are done mostly out of conditioning and not out of sincerity. I cannot assume another's motive, so I choose instead to believe the best.

One can't assume another's motive with precision, no. But, there are definitely times when it's simply obvious that a person is saying what they have to say, not what they mean. (This is particularly obvious with children, although more often with "sorry" than with the others, ime.)

Quote:

I know there are times when I've said these things rushed, seemingly absent mindendly, but still to some degree I was conscious of what I was saying and meant it. I would be very hurt if others just assumed I was in "robot mode" and was only saying those words to make meaningless noise.
That's fine. You're appreciative of what other people do for you, which is great. But, the simple fact that you say "please" and "thank you" doesn't tell anybody that one way or the other.

And, I'd say about half (maybe more) of the various "please/thank you" interactions I see in public on any given day are completely rote, and lacking in any meaning whatsoever. There are those who think that kind of interaction is a necessary social lubricant, and if that's one's view, then obviously one will teach that kind of interaction. I think the words have been rendered almost completely meaningless, but I don't care about the words, anyway.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I did not read the other responses.

We all say please, thank you, sorry, excuse me, etc. to one another. These are not formalities for us. They are part of the language that indicate respect.

And not only that... but we (gasp) use the subjunctive to phrase requests: Could you please, may I please, would you mind, etc.

Commands are for dogs and slaves, as I tell my non-native English speaking husband, who thinks he can translate Russian into English literally. We don't have any in this house so I don't want to hear them.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 
* Would you be okay if your child asked a friend for a toy, received it and walked off?
* Asked a person at a bus stop what time it is, received an answer and walked off?
* Asked a sibling for a favor, got what they wanted and walked off without acknowledging it on any level?
* Asked a waiter for a cup of juice, received it and ignored the waiter?
* Never said a thank you to their significant other?
* Grew up into a parent that never thanked their own child?

I guess I'm not okay with any of these scenarios, and I am naive to assume that others wouldn't be okay with them either, despite claiming that thank yous and pleases are unnecessary. Can a person choose other words to thank? Sure! But they DO need to choose SOME way to show that they recognize the effort of another person, right? Or is the assumption it's up to the other person to get over it?

actually oriole i would be perfectly ok with those things. but i dont behave like that in public because i live in this society and i would be misunderstood if i didnt respond in the appropriate way.

but for myself no really i dont need to be thanked. i have thought about it and practised it too. like my roommates son thanks me at every drop of a hat. i sat and had my talk with him and told him he doesnt have to say TY all the time. i know he is doing it because society expects it out of him. but when it comes to ME he doesnt have to show it.

just coz someone doesnt use the words doesnt mean they dont 'feel' it - going the other way.

what i dont like is that if you dont say it, it means you didnt feel it.

i have been at cultures where it is ridiculous to be thanked, etc. i dont know much about them, but i am sure they have a way where their need to be acknowledged is met.

yeah oriole you are right when you say you shouldnt just look at a certain piece of a culture and not the total picture. which is why i apply these rules between my dd and me and to some extent to some people around me.

but this whole idea also started because of how we here actually shun rather than adopt other cultures or even be open minded to another way of being.

all this came up because of education and how my dd hates school. how we shun other methods of teaching. other cultures. because my roommates son is teaching dd using i think russian method of doing math. and dd is actually enjoying that method of math. of multiplication.

also because i just discovered this and was horrified. http://www.phototour.minneapolis.mn.us/5399


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

When you say you are okay with your daughter not doing any of those things, I don't understand whether or not you realize many people will feel hurt used and commanded. I don't get the "I don't care what they feel, they should automatically know I appreciate them." What does it cost you to say "thank you" to a person who just gave you directions when you were lost?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 

all this came up because of education and how my dd hates school. how we shun other methods of teaching. other cultures. because my roommates son is teaching dd using i think russian method of doing math. and dd is actually enjoying that method of math. of multiplication.

I think it's ironic you mention this, since:

#1. Russian is my first language, since I grew up in the Ukraine. We moved here as a family 11 years ago.









#2. I teach, and am super passionate about math. "Over there", math is taught with traditional method of multiplication. We use exact same steps most Americans use when multiplying multi-digit numbers. My guess is that your daughter is learning lattice method preached by Everyday Math program?

#3. I have my own view on Russian vs. American culture. There is good and bad everywhere.









Quote:

just coz someone doesnt use the words doesnt mean they dont 'feel' it - going the other way.

what i dont like is that if you dont say it, it means you didnt feel it.
I disagree. The assumption is: it costs nothing to actually express your acknowledgement with a "thank you" or a "please", and it will (in most cases) show the other person you noticed their effort for you.

You are correct. One can appreciate something and show it in other ways. But you don't always have the time for "other ways". So your reason becomes then "I appreciate it, and the other person should know it automatically"? Like I said before, I get the fact that you personally feel like you don't need to hear it, I just don't get the disregard for others, or questioning everyones sincerity.

What I don't get, is why see it as a wasted effort to tell someone a genuine "thank you"? Why tell your kids those words don't mean a thing vs. show them that they DO in fact mean a lot to many people when said with sincerity?


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

First, even in quick passing you can usually tell a sincere thank you from a reflexive action. The sincere thank you has eye contact, vocal changes, and generally sounds more directed at the other person. The reflex action of saying thank you tends to be monotone, awkward to the flow of events, and the person giving it is usually focused on something completely unrelated. As in their thank you seems to be for their watch, phone, the door heading outside etc.

I found while working in the service industry that most people tend to thank their food with it comes, rather than the person bringing their food. In my house the thank yous come in alternate forms, but they are very much directed at the person they are intended for.

Second, I don't think anyone here has forbidden thank yous to be used at all. Only that they prefer sincerity over two random words chosen by society to mean something that is often not conveyed when those words are used.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I did not read the other responses.

We all say please, thank you, sorry, excuse me, etc. to one another. These are not formalities for us. They are part of the language that indicate respect.

And not only that... but we (gasp) use the subjunctive to phrase requests: Could you please, may I please, would you mind, etc.

Commands are for dogs and slaves, as I tell my non-native English speaking husband, who thinks he can translate Russian into English literally. We don't have any in this house so I don't want to hear them.

Two points here too.

1) Sometimes commands _are_ needed in English when dealing with other people. In certain situations, people take "could you please" or "would you mind" as a suggestion that doesn't need to be followed even when it does need to be. Other times, like an emergency, a command is the only way to get people to act because a simple "could you please" won't snap them back into action.

2) Tone holds a lot more water than words used when it comes to command vs. request. I have heard commands that include "please" and even "could you" just as I have heard requests that have none of those.


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## mariamadly (Jul 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 

2) Tone holds a lot more water than words used when it comes to command vs. request. I have heard commands that include "please" and even "could you" just as I have heard requests that have none of those.


"An order courteously framed as a request." There's something to be said for that.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 

1) Sometimes commands _are_ needed in English when dealing with other people. In certain situations, people take "could you please" or "would you mind" as a suggestion that doesn't need to be followed even when it does need to be. Other times, like an emergency, a command is the only way to get people to act because a simple "could you please" won't snap them back into action.

2) Tone holds a lot more water than words used when it comes to command vs. request. I have heard commands that include "please" and even "could you" just as I have heard requests that have none of those.

Re (1): Certainly. I completely agree. I suppose that should be considered an official exception to the general rule that we speak with other people as if they have the right to refuse.

Re (2): I also agree. Tone is very important as well. I can imagine a way in which DH might say, "Give me a massage," such that it would not sound at all rude. And I can not only imagine, but have heard many times, a very rude command phrased in the subjunctive! However, in general, the correct grammatical mood also matters. I would say it's both, not exclusively one or the other.


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## kalimay (May 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
First, even in quick passing you can usually tell a sincere thank you from a reflexive action. The sincere thank you has eye contact, vocal changes, and generally sounds more directed at the other person. The reflex action of saying thank you tends to be monotone, awkward to the flow of events, and the person giving it is usually focused on something completely unrelated. As in their thank you seems to be for their watch, phone, the door heading outside etc.

I found while working in the service industry that most people tend to thank their food with it comes, rather than the person bringing their food. In my house the thank yous come in alternate forms, but they are very much directed at the person they are intended for.

Second, I don't think anyone here has forbidden thank yous to be used at all. Only that they prefer sincerity over two random words chosen by society to mean something that is often not conveyed when those words are used.

Two points here too.

1) Sometimes commands _are_ needed in English when dealing with other people. In certain situations, people take "could you please" or "would you mind" as a suggestion that doesn't need to be followed even when it does need to be. Other times, like an emergency, a command is the only way to get people to act because a simple "could you please" won't snap them back into action.

2) Tone holds a lot more water than words used when it comes to command vs. request. I have heard commands that include "please" and even "could you" just as I have heard requests that have none of those.

This is directed at the third paragraph but I can't figure out how to quote it separately. Somewhere in the thread the OP said that her daughter gets a kick out of telling her friends that she is "forbidden" to use please and thank you with her mother. I guess to me this is confusing. Does it mean whenever she uses please and thank you with others that she knows she is not being authentic, or does she use thank you with others when she is thankful?


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## Tway (Jul 1, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I don't discourage my kids from saying "please" and "thank you", but I also don't agree with this quote. "Thank you" is, quite frequently, nothing but a trained-in reflex. I've been on the receiving end of hundreds of "thank you"s that didn't even remotely recognize the effort I'd put into something.

When I hold open the door for someone and they don't say "thank you", I don't think "ah, that person must be the product of a family who believe such polite words were trained-in reflexes and didn't want to insult me by acknowledging an action with an insincere remark."

I think, "What a jerk."


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

"As for being reflexive, reflexive does not equal insincere."










In this household, it's all about the good habits. Habits of mind, habits of expression, habits of the heart - just because the Pearls appropriated "train a child up in the way he should go..." for their horrible abusive parenting methodology, that doesn't mean that the author of the Book of Proverbs got it wrong to start with.









This is something I feel very strongly about, based on my own life experience. I've think that I've lived my life in ways that developed bad "reflexive" responses, and in ways that developed good responses, and I have experienced actual bone-deep positive changes as I have changed my daily habits. The most effective, and gentlest, discipline that goes on in this household is the good habits that we model and expect our children to emulate.

(This post is coming off as very religious, and I'm not very religious. But in this particular area, my family life seems to dovetail very nicely with a popular JudeoChristian tenet.)


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tway* 
When I hold open the door for someone and they don't say "thank you", I don't think "ah, that person must be the product of a family who believe such polite words were trained-in reflexes and didn't want to insult me by acknowledging an action with an insincere remark."

I think, "What a jerk."

I don't even notice, one way or the other. Also, I personally believe that deciding someone is a jerk, based on whether or not they say "thank you" for a minor favour by a stranger kind of misses the point about courtesy and appreciation. Even if I cared about the "thank you", I'd give them the benefit of the doubt - maybe they have something really major on their mind and didn't even notice or something. (I know I was ridiculously rude - including a fair number of purely reflexive "polite" responses to things - in the weeks following Aaron's death, but I didn't realize it at the time.)

Also, as most of the pro "thank you" parents in this thread find it very important to teach their children to say this all the time, in order to develop the reflexive response, it seems really unfair to basically decide that someone's a jerk, because his/her parents didn't ingrain the reactions that you find appropriate.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tway* 
When I hold open the door for someone and they don't say "thank you", I don't think "ah, that person must be the product of a family who believe such polite words were trained-in reflexes and didn't want to insult me by acknowledging an action with an insincere remark."

I think, "What a jerk."











That is what it comes down to, really. Whether or not I care if my kids use polite words, they will be interacting in school, in work and socially with people who do care,and who will think they are jerks if they don't. This will adversely affect their careers and social lives.

So I teach them not to act like jerks. That's part of my job as a parent.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 









That is what it comes down to, really. Whether or not I care if my kids use polite words, they will be interacting in school, in work and socially with people who do care,and who will think they are jerks if they don't. This will adversely affect their careers and social lives.

So I teach them not to act like jerks. That's part of my job as a parent.

Some of the biggest jerks I know say "please" and "thank you" all the time. By all means, teach the words, but the words don't make somebody a non-jerk.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Some of the biggest jerks I know say "please" and "thank you" all the time. By all means, teach the words, but the words don't make somebody a non-jerk.

But the non-use of the words can make a non-jerk look like a jerk to the vast majority of people in our society.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tway* 
When I hold open the door for someone and they don't say "thank you", I don't think "ah, that person must be the product of a family who believe such polite words were trained-in reflexes and didn't want to insult me by acknowledging an action with an insincere remark."

I think, "What a jerk."

I agree.


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mtiger* 
I agree.

Me too.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
But the non-use of the words can make a non-jerk look like a jerk to the vast majority of people in our society.

I'm becoming more aware of that every day.

I don't get it, but I don't get a lot of things that seem to make sense to most people, so I'm not really that surprised.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalimay* 
This is directed at the third paragraph but I can't figure out how to quote it separately. Somewhere in the thread the OP said that her daughter gets a kick out of telling her friends that she is "forbidden" to use please and thank you with her mother. I guess to me this is confusing. Does it mean whenever she uses please and thank you with others that she knows she is not being authentic, or does she use thank you with others when she is thankful?

It means both the OP and her daughter know that with each other there are other methods of thanks that are preferred. The OP also mentioned later in the thread that you dd _does_ say thanks to her at times, just that most of the time a more informal manner of appreciation is used.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
But the non-use of the words can make a non-jerk look like a jerk to the vast majority of people in our society.

I agree. Especially when you only interact with that person for a couple seconds. All you know is that they didn't say thank you when you held the door. They could be a super nice person, otherwise, but I would think that person = rude, b/c how hard is it to acknowledge when someone does something nice like that?

Of course, the person who is good about manners and says "thanks" may be a murderer, for all you know -- but in those couple seconds you felt appreciated.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tway* 
When I hold open the door for someone and they don't say "thank you", I don't think "ah, that person must be the product of a family who believe such polite words were trained-in reflexes and didn't want to insult me by acknowledging an action with an insincere remark."

I think, "What a jerk."

Maybe it's a Canadian thing since the only other poster that said this is Storm Bride, but...

I don't think "what a jerk" when someone doesn't thank me for something small like holding the door. I don't even notice if they say anything at all.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 

I found while working in the service industry that most people tend to thank their food with it comes, rather than the person bringing their food. In my house the thank yous come in alternate forms, but they are very much directed at the person they are intended for.

I have zero argument against the fact that one should thank the person, not the food. I also have no issues with OP choosing not to use "thank you" in her family. I disagree only with following two points:

#1. telling a child that their thank you is meaningless. (I think it is only meaningless when people actually don't mean it).

#2. Our society doesn't need it. (I think finding one way or another to show someone appreciation is a pretty nice way to live life, and a heartfelt thank you is far from the worst way to show it).

Quote:


Second, I don't think anyone here has forbidden thank yous to be used at all. Only that they prefer sincerity over two random words chosen by society to mean something that is often not conveyed when those words are used.

OP did state that she forbids thank yous from her daughter, and does not see them necessary in our society. Those are the only two things that I disagree with on this whole thank you business.









Quote:

Two points here too.

1) Sometimes commands _are_ needed in English when dealing with other people. In certain situations, people take "could you please" or "would you mind" as a suggestion that doesn't need to be followed even when it does need to be. Other times, like an emergency, a command is the only way to get people to act because a simple "could you please" won't snap them back into action.

Sure thing. Sometimes commands are needed and might be fine and appropriate. I'm only speaking for all those other times when it is culturally appropriate to acknowledge someone else's actions.

Quote:

2) Tone holds a lot more water than words used when it comes to command vs. request. I have heard commands that include "please" and even "could you" just as I have heard requests that have none of those.
no argument here either. Tone is important. I doubt you will find anyone saying that they prefer a rude tone along with a request?


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## Tway (Jul 1, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I don't even notice, one way or the other. Also, I personally believe that deciding someone is a jerk, based on whether or not they say "thank you" for a minor favour by a stranger kind of misses the point about courtesy and appreciation. Even if I cared about the "thank you", I'd give them the benefit of the doubt - maybe they have something really major on their mind and didn't even notice or something. (I know I was ridiculously rude - including a fair number of purely reflexive "polite" responses to things - in the weeks following Aaron's death, but I didn't realize it at the time.)

I see what you mean and you're totally right--grief, stress, and all kinds of factors can put us in our own worlds, and we should give people the benefit of the doubt in those cases. I can't imagine what such a loss must be like and how it can take over your world.

What I believe, though, is that--in the vast majority of cases--people who don't acknowledge a door being held open for them either expect the door to be held open, think the other person isn't worthy of their time, or don't even see the person in the first place. All of which are terribly sad and rude.

When someone holds the door for me, I think "Wow, that person's stopped to help me. They're actually taking time out of their day to make mine better. They care about a total stranger." And I say thank you every, single time because I truly FEEL thankful every, single time.

I want my daughter to grow up with that gorgeous feeling that comes when you realize someone has done something for you just because you exist and it means something to them. And that deserves a heartfelt thank you every time.


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## wookie (Dec 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
I think though, that this paints an incomplete picture here. While children in some parts of asia may be rescued from having their authenticity hampered in the manner of using formal "words"...let's be real here--there is a trade off for a LOT of pressure and obligation in other ways. Admittedly, I am not an insider to Indian culture (I do have a lot of Indian friends, but that's not the same), but my BFF in high school was Korean and all my friends were Korean practically and I was around their families enough to be "accepted". Perhaps they were not required to use American words of respect, but you had better believe that they WERE absolutely expected to show a level of deference and obligation to elder members of the family that went way beyond expecting someone to speak politely when asking for something.

Being biracial (white and asian), I keep a lot of (literally) mixed company. I've seen a lot of cultural clashes, because of the very strong sense of filial obligation that is "cultural" amongst first-gen or immigrant asian families vs. the more relaxed over the lifespan Americanized folks.

I am all for exploring and respecting different cultures...but you can't boil it down to a nugget and then extrapolate. I don't think it's at all accurate to imply that there is not just as much parental-to-child expectation of respect and deference on the asian side. I think perhaps there is more, at least in my observation. Even if no one ever says please or thank you.

IME the moms who live "everything I do is for you" also tend to have very strong expectations about what is going to happen once their children are grown ups, it's a sacrifice up front with expected reward later.

Very well said, TIgerchild, and I completely agree. I came here to write precisely this when some people misinterpreted my words for indian mothers (or elders, generally) don't think they deserve respect. even if formal *words* are discomforting, you'd better believe there are other ways to *pay their dues* so to speak. so i was absolutely not talking about respect, i was merely saying the _words_ please and thank you are not the only way a society shows respect and i`m no worse off (in the manners dept) for growing up not saying them. is all.


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## dawncayden (Jan 24, 2006)

If I do something nice for someone like hold the door open for them and they don't do ANYTHING to say 'thanks' then I think 'what a jerk'. But they don't have to actually say 'thank you', they can smile, they can give me a nod, they can say thanks, or thank you. I would just like an acknowledgement of some appreciation.

Keep in mind that I live in a big city with lots of people pushing to get ahead and go first. There are a lot of people in a rush and rude people that are short with you. I choose to (try) and ignore these people and not have them affect my good mood. But when I experience nice, courteous people in the community, it just makes my day and makes me smile.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Maybe it's a Canadian thing since the only other poster that said this is Storm Bride, but...

I don't think "what a jerk" when someone doesn't thank me for something small like holding the door. I don't even notice if they say anything at all.

Neither do I (and I'm not Canadian) -- I just figure they are in a rush or something. To me, holding the door is what I do to be courteous & considerate of those around me -- they don't have to respond or acknowledge it. Same thing when I wave someone ahead of me while I'm driving. Though I do think that people that let the doors slam in your face or cut you off while driving are being pretty rude... even if they do have good 'reasons'.

I will admit I'm guilty of thanking my food -- I'm pretty shy & tend to avoid eye contact when food is around (weird, I know) -- but I intend to thank the server, I'll have to make more of an effort to look up now that you made that point!


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## wookie (Dec 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Maybe it's a Canadian thing since the only other poster that said this is Storm Bride, but...

I don't think "what a jerk" when someone doesn't thank me for something small like holding the door. I don't even notice if they say anything at all.

I third this. AND I live in Canada too!







I do say thanks every time itès done to me but i dont think someoneès a jerk when _they_ dont.

but, to me, the # of times people say please, thanks, oh, im sorry i didnt mean to.., excuse me maam, here in Canada, not getting thanks said is almost like a break!


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalimay* 
This is directed at the third paragraph but I can't figure out how to quote it separately. Somewhere in the thread the OP said that her daughter gets a kick out of telling her friends that she is "forbidden" to use please and thank you with her mother. I guess to me this is confusing. Does it mean whenever she uses please and thank you with others that she knows she is not being authentic, or does she use thank you with others when she is thankful?

she has different rules at home as opposed to outside. that is zero expectation at home. but demanded in public.

it means when she uses words outside she is doing it because she has to. some of it is genuine - i can tell when she uses many words, and sometimes its because it is expected of her - polite behaviour.

what she was telling her friends was that it is not expected of her to say anything at home.

and no i never think what a jerk. even if they show no acknowledgement of me. i can be completely ignored. and hold no ill feeling towards anyone. and i live very much in the U S of A


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wookie* 
but, to me, the # of times people say please, thanks, oh, im sorry i didnt mean to.., excuse me maam, here in Canada, not getting thanks said is almost like a break!









Even in one conversation. And especially the sorry... Sorry for doing something, sorry for having it done to you, sorry for being sorry, and sorry for saying you're sorry for the nth time over the same thing...


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
That's great. I don't feel that a trained in "thank you" acknowledges squat. If some people feel better, because they're interacting with someone whose parents made them say "thank you", I'm glad it improves their day. Personally, I get really, really tired of hearing words that are supposed to have meaning used without meaning dozens of times a day. "Thank you" is a near meaningless noise these days.

Why not assume positive intent? When I say thank you, which is regularly and often, it is with a sense of appreciation for the efforts of others. Thank you is not a meaningless noise to me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I don't feel the fact that I mouth meaningless words in response to certain cues says _anything_ about whether or not I'm a polite, considerate, courteous person...because it doesn't. It means I was taught to use those words in response to certain situations and says no more about my level of courtesy than the fact that I call that clear liquid in a glass "water".

Everyone is entitled to rear their children in the way they see fit, of course. But, "please" and "thank you" do not demonstrate apprecation or a lack of sense of entitlement. If they did, then people who suffered from rudeness and entitlement wouldn't use them, and many of those people do.

In North American culture, please and thanks are one of the hallmarks of common courtesy and respect, and the use of those specific words, or other similar expressions of acknowledgement and gratitude is a cultural shorthand that demonstrates an understanding of the effort of others and an indication that there is cultural common ground.
While not every thanks can be interpreted as a deep seated appreciation, a lack of those basic common courtesies will more likely be perceived as exactly that - a lack of appreciation, a sense of entitlement, the perception that the other person's efforts or presence doesn't deserve acknowledgement.

I think it does our kids a great disservice not to 1) model appropriate cultural norms and 2) talk to them about it. I'm not interested in handicapping mykids that way.

OP, I think there are a couple of issues at play - understanding of cultural norms, understanding how to value others and express gratitude for their efforts. They are not mutually exclusive.

For our family we do model appreciation for each other, and often use the cultural short hand (please and thanks) for that. Because we also talk about the value in acknowledging others and their efforts on our behalf- in and outside our family - this modelling allows the kids to see real appreciation in action and helps them learn not only to acknowledge effort, but to look for it and value it. In that way my kids learn the cultural norms, as well as the meaning behind it and are able to say thanks in ways that are both heartfelt and acknowledge the efforts and kindness of others.

As for the hate thing - I have 4 kids ages 7-12 and so far none of them have had to use the word hate for a shorthand way to express anger, sadness or frustration with me or anyone. But if they did, I wouldn't relish those words. I think they are inherently damaging to a relationship and that we would have some work to do learning how to better label and express emotions in a healthy authentic way so. Words have power both over ourselves and those around us. I love the RW Emerson quote that our words become deeds, which become habits, which become character. I think it is important to teach kids that being authentic does not give them carte blanche to be hurtful, thoughtless, inconsiderate or unkind.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Even in one conversation. And especially the sorry... Sorry for doing something, sorry for having it done to you, sorry for being sorry, and sorry for saying you're sorry for the nth time over the same thing...









I'm sooooo freaking bad for this. It's actually embarrassing. I might as well tattoo "sorry for being Canadian" on my forehead.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
Why not assume positive intent? When I say thank you, which is regularly and often, it is with a sense of appreciation for the efforts of others. Thank you is not a meaningless noise to me.

Why not assume the best of someone who neglects to say "thank you" when a door is held for them?

People can say "please" or "thank you" all they want. I have no objection to it. I just don't believe it says anything about them as people.

Quote:

In North American culture, please and thanks are one of the hallmarks of common courtesy and respect, and the use of those specific words, or other similar expressions of acknowledgement and gratitude is a cultural shorthand that demonstrates an understanding of the effort of others and an indication that there is cultural common ground.
Yes. I'm aware of the role of "please" and "thank you" in our culture. North American culture doesn't reflect my own personal values, though. Those words don't demonstrate anything to me, in and of themselves.

Quote:

While not every thanks can be interpreted as a deep seated appreciation, a lack of those basic common courtesies will more likely be perceived as exactly that - a lack of appreciation, a sense of entitlement, the perception that the other person's efforts or presence doesn't deserve acknowledgement.
Yes. I'm getting that. Those words simply don't mean that to me. Actually, my real life experiences are such that I've almost reached the point (took a long time) that I see "thank you" as a marker for someone who doesn't appreciate anything, and doesn't want anyone to know that.

Quote:

I think it does our kids a great disservice not to 1) model appropriate cultural norms and 2) talk to them about it. I'm not interested in handicapping mykids that way.
There's a lot of truth to that...but which cultural norms are the appropriate ones?

Quote:

As for the hate thing - I have 4 kids ages 7-12 and so far none of them have had to use the word hate for a shorthand way to express anger, sadness or frustration with me or anyone. But if they did, I wouldn't relish those words. I think they are inherently damaging to a relationship and that we would have some work to do learning how to better label and express emotions in a healthy authentic way so.
DS2 says "I hate you" a lot. We do have a lot of work to do, because he needs to learn better ways to express himself, but it's _very_ hard for him, so it's going to take time. I don't think it's done any harm to our relationship, though - I don't expect him to always be happy with me, or to always have the right words. I don't relish it when he says it...but I don't really relish "I'm mad at you, mommy", either. It's the conflict that bothers me, more than the labels.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

The thing about it being reflexive but still sincere is that I think most people reflexively say it when they feel thankful for something. It's something I automatically say when I appreciate something.

I kind of feel like we're all over thinking this. It isn't hard to say and it makes at least most people feel good. It isn't something that seems to me to be worth controversy.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Perhaps the real issue here is that many, many people are truly self centered and self entitled, even if they are "polite" and use thank you and please often (and perhaps meaninglessly) or they are "rude" and rarely use those words. Perhaps the best way to raise a child to be appreciative is to consistently show them all the nice things people are doing for them, like "wow that nice man just held the door open for me, I'm going to say thank you" or "daddy just made us a delicious dinner, we need to thank him for that" or "it was so nice of grandma to buy that toy for you, we should make sure she knows we appreciate it" and so on. I bet there are children who don't even know why they say please and thank you, but do it anyway because mom says to. In fact my 18 month old just said "thank you" to me when I gave her a piece of fruit. Obviously she doesn't know what "thank you" means, she just knows that mom and dad say it a lot.


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## newmum35 (Aug 16, 2007)

meemee, you are not alone, you must be my long lost twin lol Superficial manners is a source of frustration for me too, especially when you know the person is rude underneath and that they think their use of "manners" is going to somehow erase that. I replied to a post about this some months ago you might find interesting, if I ever find it I'll send you the link.

I agree with "mamalisa" who wrote this:

I believe in intent more than actual words. So if ds says "can you get me some water mom?" I will happily do it. If he says "get me some water...please!" It's probably not going to happen.

Bingo. I think thats what OP is referring to. You can be polite without the use of magic words. And you can be impolite while using them. The key is to be polite. And you should be able to do that without the use of special words. You should not have to use special words for others to know you are polite, grateful, etc. If they think you are rude because you haven't said your "thank you" then there is something wrong. You can acknowledge their holding the door open with a smile and a nod of your head for example. I do think the OP was more referring to what goes on at home and not out in public though.

I'm not sure if certain terms of "politeness" bother you more than others, but for me its "please"

"Please" bothers me more than any other term of politeness (especially when its used as a "magic word" that a child must say in order to receive something). To me it is like begging and it would be insulting to me that someone would feel the need to beg for something from me. I would feel like I failed them for not meeting or noticing their needs the first time so that they had to resort to begging to get my attention. All they have to do is just ask me. "Pass the bread?" or "Do you have the time?" They don't need to say please. Now if I ignored their request the first time, then I could understand the use of "please" the next time they asked, but I would be quite embarrassed as it would be insulting they had to resort to this.

I'm not quite so disturbed by "thank yous" and use them often both in and out of the home and do not usually see it as an insult. I was not raised in a "please, thank you and sorry" family but dh was. I have to admit the overuse of these words has rubbed off on me and I find myself overusing them too, Its already become a habit Im afraid. I don't like it at all but what can I do? lol


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 
OP did state that she forbids thank yous from her daughter, and does not see them necessary in our society. Those are the only two things that I disagree with on this whole thank you business.

















thanks for coming back and humoring me.

i am really enjoying reading everybody's point of view.

yeah you are right.

why is it necessary in our society.

(however let me clarify - practically dd does both. she respects others expectations and so follows the rules. and yeah i dont want her to say those words in our family. doesnt mean she can NEVER use the words. it means you dont have to use them every single time. obviously she cant draw the line fine enough so she does offer some sincere thank yous and... but its when she is doing it all the time i stop her)

so really what i am doing here is looking at the social norms.

and wondering are they necessary? for us. as society in general.

i mean the 'jerk' reaction totally proves my point of why use anything. many societies - in fact i would go as far as to say the majority of societies DONT use please, sorry, ty.

just coz someone doesnt use those terms does it mean they are a jerk. perhaps they are rushing out to take care of a sick child and the last thing they have on their mind is a ty. kwim?

it is sooo easy to say omg no one should practise female circumcision. that is easy to do.

but i am curious. how do we remove falseness in society.

unfortunately like Storm Bride pointed out the most 'vocally' polite people are the most insincere in my experience. using manners to make you feel good and get something out of you.

many of us have discovered the lies on tv and so keep tv away from our children.

so i was bringing to the table manners - which i feel are empty tokens too. the only key here is that - that is not the majority view. it is mine.

can we not view another culture who dont use these kinds of words and see what else they do. what are their signs of respect.

so if we were indeed to stop this behaviour - suppose the US passes a law banning please, thank you and sorry - what could we replace it with.

this is more for those of you who think of 'what a jerk'.

is there something we can replace 'sorry, ty, please' with?


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
is there something we can replace 'sorry, ty, please' with?

Why?
It seems your issue is with intent and true gratitude rather than the words.
Perhaps the best thing to do is teach our children how to demonstrate gratitude and to start from the assumption that the words do have authentic meaning, as many here have stated. I think the assumption that thank yous are meaningless is misguided IME.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

I agree, Karen. I am usually pretty genuine when thanking people. And you know what? Even if I wasn't inside, they can at least feel like I was for a few seconds after hearing the words -- they don't have to know that I am really in a pissy mood for some reason. If you don't say them at all, that leaves one to assume maybe you aren't thankful.

A nod or gesture or whatever word in place of thanks is the same idea. It's acknowledging you are grateful to another person. It's the same thing.

I will admit maybe I say too many "thank yous" on any given day I am out in public. Even tonight I was bugging myself b/c I said thanks after the cashier said credit or debit and I swiped my card. Why I was thanking her for deducting money out of my checking account, I dunno. But it's just a habit - like when she got the heavy case of beer on the bottom for my cart for me, or the bagger boy was finished with my groceries. I like to say thank you, I guess. Too many people don't - I see it when they are ahead of me in line, and even though they may not really be a jerk-y person, I do think it seems kinda rude.

I don't care that the gal at the drive-thru is paid to give me my order, I can't imagine not having the energy to at least mutter "thank you" when she hands me my food. I think our energy in the world definitely impacts other's positvely, as silly as that may sound. If you smile, nod, say please and thank you, it just comes across as being a nicer human being.


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## happysmileylady (Feb 6, 2009)

I not only expect my dd to say Thank You and use other good manners with me, but I expect her to mean it too. And I teach and model both.

My oldest is 14. And she genuinely expresses gratitude often and yes, she does use the apparely verboten words "Thank You." She does appreciate me driving her all over the freaking state practically, and she expresses that through BOTH actions and words. And I feel that teaching her to use both is important. And teaching her about gratitude and feeling grateful is important as well. It takes a lot of discussion, a lot of modling, and yes, a lot of expectation as well.

She also says she's sorry a lot, like practically every other line out of her mouth. And most people would assume it's just a rote response, but really, I believe she genuinely has feelings of remorse or otherwise feels bad about whatever she's apologizing for. But yes, we talk about that too. We talk about not saying it if you don't mean it, about how saying "I'm sorry" is about expressing regret or "feeling bad" over the particular situation.

My dd2 is only 20 months. She's just learning to talk and yes, please and thank you are among the words I am teaching her. Because I believe that I can't teach her about having those feelings and expressing them without also giving her the proper words for that expression. And since she for sure can't understand the feelings yet, I start with the words for the expression.


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## azgirl (Nov 27, 2006)

Well...I am all over the place on this issue, but it matters to me a lot.

I have a friend who is always irritated when that I don't say "please" and "thank you" to her. We are CLOSE friends, but things can be rocky. I will ask her for something warmly but without the please and that irritates her. She will ask for something brusquely, but says please and that bothers ME immensely. She is one of the most entitled people I know, but she does not realize that at all.

I was not raised to have the greatest manners. I realized it gradually. For me not saying "please" and "thank you" DID correspond with me being somewhat oblivious to others. Not entitled, per se, but not thoughtful either. My brain works faster than my mouth







and especially with loved ones I tend to have trouble spitting out requests in all but the most calm situations (I even want the salt for ages before I can manage to spit out "could you pass the salt") I think "could you" before a request made in a sweet voice is better than a brusque "please pass the salt" but for me that is splitting hairs (not to my friend, though). Okay, so I need to REALLY slow down and think about other people in order to fit our societies standards of politeness. Guess what? To slow down and do something outside of my comfort zone that might make someone else feel a tiny bit better is a really good thing.

I am an introvert and for much of my life that meant I was somewhat shy and socially awkward. Now I look people in the eye and say thank you constantly...so much so that people sometimes act a little surprised and like I am in their space a tiny bit. Mostly people seem really lifted. I get a lift when someone looks me in the eye and says thank you. Saying thank you is a way to connect with the people I run into in the course of my day. It's an opportunity to recognize the way we are all interconnected and the way we rely on each other. It's been gradual but I know that my habit of saying thank you contributes to the fact that I walk around feeling so much gratitude and amazement at how wonderful most people are. I was once much more cynical and negative about my fellow humans.

I too experienced a hellish time period of grief and mourning. I definitely did not walk around noticing things people did for me and saying thank you a lot. I do not like that feeling







I like being free enough from grief and (justified) self-absorption that I can recognize the people around me. Saying thank you is such a great excuse to look someone in the eye and smile and not just seem like a creepy stalker









My toddler spontaneously says "Thank you Mommy" when I hand him stuff.







I have NEVER asked him to. Is it rote? Maybe. It still gives me a lift like no other. We really push please and not giving orders. I don't mind a sweet tone of voice instead of please, but that is harder to convey to a toddler and he is going to encounter people who want to hear the word "please". I want to give him the best shot at successful human interaction in the culture HE was born into. I think it is okay to require politeness from a child who is immersed in something. If I decide to give my kiddo a cup of water while he is playing and he doesn't say thank you, that's cool. But if he asks me for something, then politeness is most definitely required, does that make sense? I do think that handing an immersed child something that they haven't requested may not require acknowledgment, is that the type of context you were referring to, meemee?

Storm Bride-I am pretty amazed and shocked that you feel like the more someone says please and thank you the LESS appreciative they probably are...can I ask you something gently? Do you, in general, feel surrounded by horrible people? Do MOST people you encounter seem ungrateful/unappreciative and self-absorbed?







If you do, I am so sorry. That totally sucks. Are these people perfect strangers or people close to you? I definitely do know people that seemed really nice until I really got to know them and people who seemed rude but had hearts of gold but that has only happened after knowing them for YEARS and really really well, I can't apply that to strangers....Now that I think about it, I do know exactly what you are talking about, if you are referring to some specific people you have had the misfortune of knowing really well. But why apply that to strangers? Why should only people who DON'T acknowledge kindness be given the benefit of the doubt? Am I misunderstanding what you said? Do you assume that the person who said "thank you" is probably more selfish than the person who didn't acknowledge you at all? Sorry I am being so intrusive, I just find it totally fascinating!!

I was much more self-absorbed and ungrateful when I didn't say thank you as much. It's hard to say which came first, the feeling grateful or the saying thank you...


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
is there something we can replace 'sorry, ty, please' with?

Wouldn't that just be 6 of one, half dozen of the other?

If it's intent that matters, then the word itself doesn't matter. So let's say we replace "Sorry" with "Oompa", "Thank you" with "Loompa", and "Please" with with "ZZzzzzzzzING!". Wouldn't people saying those words (or if we were to make up gestures, or dances, or facial expressions, whatever) STILL be the same thing? It really doesn't matter if you say "please" or "ZZzzzzzzING!", if you're using it as a way to be polite, you're still using That Generic Polite Word.

Right? Or am I missing something?


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## berry987 (Apr 23, 2008)

Whether or not you agree with saying please and thank you, if you live in N. America, they ARE culturally expected words. And people come off rude when they don't use them. And while many people will say "I don't need my kids to "fit in" to N. American culture" it is a huge disservice IMO to intentionally raise them to _appear_ rude to others.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 







I agree, Karen. I am usually pretty genuine when thanking people. And you know what? Even if I wasn't inside, they can at least feel like I was for a few seconds after hearing the words -- they don't have to know that I am really in a pissy mood for some reason. If you don't say them at all, that leaves one to assume maybe you aren't thankful.

A nod or gesture or whatever word in place of thanks is the same idea. It's acknowledging you are grateful to another person. It's the same thing.

I will admit maybe I say too many "thank yous" on any given day I am out in public. Even tonight I was bugging myself b/c I said thanks after the cashier said credit or debit and I swiped my card. Why I was thanking her for deducting money out of my checking account, I dunno. But it's just a habit - like when she got the heavy case of beer on the bottom for my cart for me, or the bagger boy was finished with my groceries. I like to say thank you, I guess. Too many people don't - I see it when they are ahead of me in line, and even though they may not really be a jerk-y person, I do think it seems kinda rude.

I don't care that the gal at the drive-thru is paid to give me my order, I can't imagine not having the energy to at least mutter "thank you" when she hands me my food. I think our energy in the world definitely impacts other's positvely, as silly as that may sound. If you smile, nod, say please and thank you, it just comes across as being a nicer human being.

Yep!

Saying things like "Thank you" is really just summarizing what your true feelings are when, for example, a server brings you your food. What you really might want to say is, "I'm paying this extra money to eat at a restaurant because for whatever reason, I didn't want to be in your shoes catering to others for dinner, even my family at home, and I am grateful that it's you busting your bum and not me tonight. I'm recognizing that you are doing the work instead of me." Well, obviously, we're not going to say something like that, so we sum it up nicely with a "thank you" when they bring our tea. "Authentic" gratitude... well, it's certainly recognizing that someone else is doing the work, not you. That's authentic in its own way.

"Please" is the same kind of thing... "I don't really want to get up and walk across the room to get a glass and get myself some water and I noticed that you are closer and standing already, so logic stands to reason that it'd be less effort for you to get me a glass of water instead of me getting up and doing it all myself" gets reduced down to, "Could you get me a glass of water, *please*?"

These both have meaning. They are both authentic, but it's not like the person who is saying it has to feel overwhelming heartfelt gratitude every time they use it. Sometimes it's just recognition that the other person is doing something for you. It's actually quite appropriate.

It would be inappropriate to show true gratitude in these situations because it doesn't warrant it. You'd really creep out a server if they brought your tea and you tried to give them an "authentic, heartfelt" thank you. They'd think you were on something. Simple "please" and "thank you" are just that. Simple.

Most people just want to have their efforts acknowledged. I would hate to live in a society where nobody said please and thank you and sorry. Even at home, a quick "thank you" isn't to signify that you just made a life-changing effort... it's just saying, "Hey, I see what you did."


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## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

It matters very much to me.

I'm with velochic & scottishmommy and the others - I don't think it's meant to reflect how I feel, but rather to acknowledge someone's actions. I think it's sort of a sad thing if we're so into only expressing how *I feel* rather than being able to respond to what someone else does. It's just not always about _how I feel_.


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## berry987 (Apr 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 

Saying things like "Thank you" is really just summarizing what your true feelings are when, for example, a server brings you your food. What you really might want to say is, "I'm paying this extra money to eat at a restaurant because for whatever reason, I didn't want to be in your shoes catering to others for dinner, even my family at home, and I am grateful that it's you busting your bum and not me tonight. I'm recognizing that you are doing the work instead of me." Well, obviously, we're not going to say something like that, so we sum it up nicely with a "thank you" when they bring our tea. "Authentic" gratitude... well, it's certainly recognizing that someone else is doing the work, not you. That's authentic in its own way.

"Please" is the same kind of thing... "I don't really want to get up and walk across the room to get a glass and get myself some water and I noticed that you are closer and standing already, so logic stands to reason that it'd be less effort for you to get me a glass of water instead of me getting up and doing it all myself" gets reduced down to, "Could you get me a glass of water, *please*?"

These both have meaning. They are both authentic, but it's not like the person who is saying it has to feel overwhelming heartfelt gratitude every time they use it. Sometimes it's just recognition that the other person is doing something for you. It's actually quite appropriate.

It would be inappropriate to show true gratitude in these situations because it doesn't warrant it. You'd really creep out a server if they brought your tea and you tried to give them an "authentic, heartfelt" thank you. They'd think you were on something. Simple "please" and "thank you" are just that. Simple.

Most people just want to have their efforts acknowledged. I would hate to live in a society where nobody said please and thank you and sorry. Even at home, a quick "thank you" isn't to signify that you just made a life-changing effort... it's just saying, "Hey, I see what you did."

VERY well said! I completely agree, especially the part about living in a society where people don't acknowledge someone else's effort.


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *berry987* 
Whether or not you agree with saying please and thank you, if you live in N. America, they ARE culturally expected words. And people come off rude when they don't use them. And while many people will say "I don't need my kids to "fit in" to N. American culture" it is a huge disservice IMO to intentionally raise them to _appear_ rude to others.









: It doesn't really matter if a tribe in deepest darkest wherever does or does not use these kinds of words. It doesn't even matter how *you*, personally, feel about them. If you don't raise your kids to at least know that this is the prevailing cultural expectation, then you're handicapping them. (you meaning generally, not specifically the OP)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hopefulfaith* 
It matters very much to me.

I'm with velochic & scottishmommy and the others - I don't think it's meant to reflect how I feel, but rather to acknowledge someone's actions. I think it's sort of a sad thing if we're so into only expressing how *I feel* rather than being able to respond to what someone else does. It's just not always about _how I feel_.

Yep. This.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
why is it necessary in our society.


because people usually can't read each other's mind, and it's a nice thing to do to let the other person know that you noticed their actions?

Quote:

so really what i am doing here is looking at the social norms.

and wondering are they necessary? for us. as society in general.
because it's nice to acknowledge another person that just did something for you?

Quote:

i mean the 'jerk' reaction totally proves my point of why use anything. many societies - in fact i would go as far as to say the majority of societies DONT use please, sorry, ty.
not true. I never heard a language missing "thank you". All societies I've ever learned about had things that were considered rude. I might be wrong, but I don't think you really researched other cultures, and are simply making assumptions?

Quote:

just coz someone doesnt use those terms does it mean they are a jerk. perhaps they are rushing out to take care of a sick child and the last thing they have on their mind is a ty. kwim?
perhaps, but if that's the case, then they probably will use those words in 99 out of 100 cases if their day is not crazy, and there is no emergency around the corner. What does it cost to let the other person know that you appreciated the fact they held the door for you vs. ignoring the simple nice thing?

Quote:

but i am curious. how do we remove falseness in society.
by being sincere with our children? by meaning what we say? by teaching our children that being genuine is important? How does NOT saying "thank you" turn you into a sincere person? How does NOT saying please removes falseness from society?

Quote:

unfortunately like Storm Bride pointed out the most 'vocally' polite people are the most insincere in my experience. using manners to make you feel good and get something out of you.
I'm sorry for your experiences, but those were not mine. People who acted entitled in my life did not use those simple words.

Quote:

can we not view another culture who dont use these kinds of words and see what else they do. what are their signs of respect.
I think you need a specific example. You bring up a culture that does not use those words, and I'm more than happy to put in the time to research what else they do. Honest. I will. I really like learning this kind of thing, but I'd like a starting point, and I hope you will realize that it's not that easy to find a culture that does not use those words.









Quote:

so if we were indeed to stop this behaviour - suppose the US passes a law banning please, thank you and sorry - what could we replace it with.
Aaaand if you replace it with something else, how is that something else now not the "trained reflex"? I think you are focusing on the wrong thing. Me saying "thank you" to the person at the store does not make me a double-faced. My skipping saying "thank you" to someone who just bagged my groceries is MY missed opportunity to let the other person know that I appreciated their effort.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think that the question of whether people think they would want to live in a society without words like please and thank you is different from whether people force these words. I don't believe it is right to force these words, but I also wouldn't want to live in a society where we don't acknowledge what other people do for us. I truly mean the polite words I say and always assume other people do as well, maybe that is just because I live in a place where people are mostly nice rather than mean and ungrateful inside. Even if people don't mean their polite words I would rather believe they did because I feel better when I look for the good in things rather than the bad. Since I can't truly know what another person is feeling and meaning I choose to think they are meaning well in this situation. Everyone has a different personality though and feels happy about life by interepreting things in a way that fits with their personality.

We are already a self centered society and I think it would suck to live in a society that encourages that self-centeredness by doing away with polite words. Saying polite words acknowledges the actions that someone did for you, we encounter many people who don't know us well enough to read our body language and know we are grateful so polite words are a quick way to let someone else know we are. I didn't learn anything about the role of please and thank you in other societies when I was in anthropology so I would really need to see the studies that show that before actually believing that most societies don't have polite words they use. Every society has different expectations and ours happens to expect a lot of individualism and self-centeredness but also that we pull ourselves out of our self absorption for a few seconds and acknowledge the things someone else did for us. I don't think that is such a bad thing. I would like to see us move towards being less self-centered as a society not more.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hopefulfaith* 
It matters very much to me.

I'm with velochic & scottishmommy and the others - I don't think it's meant to reflect how I feel, but rather to acknowledge someone's actions. I think it's sort of a sad thing if we're so into only expressing how *I feel* rather than being able to respond to what someone else does. It's just not always about _how I feel_.

Good point!!


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tway* 
I see what you mean and you're totally right--grief, stress, and all kinds of factors can put us in our own worlds, and we should give people the benefit of the doubt in those cases. I can't imagine what such a loss must be like and how it can take over your world.

What I believe, though, is that--in the vast majority of cases--people who don't acknowledge a door being held open for them either expect the door to be held open, think the other person isn't worthy of their time, or don't even see the person in the first place. All of which are terribly sad and rude.

When someone holds the door for me, I think "Wow, that person's stopped to help me. They're actually taking time out of their day to make mine better. They care about a total stranger." And I say thank you every, single time because I truly FEEL thankful every, single time.

I want my daughter to grow up with that gorgeous feeling that comes when you realize someone has done something for you just because you exist and it means something to them. And that deserves a heartfelt thank you every time.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *azgirl* 
Storm Bride-I am pretty amazed and shocked that you feel like the more someone says please and thank you the LESS appreciative they probably are

That's not what I said. I said that a reflexive "thank you" doesnt mean anything to me. I also said that some of the rudest people I know always say "please" and "thank you". That's simple truth. These are people I know quite well, and they have no consideration for anybody else at all, but they wouldn't be caught dead forgetting to say "please" or "thank you"...meaningless noises that make them better than people who don't say them (at least in their eyes). That doesn't mean I automatically feel that people who say "please" and "thank you" a lot are "probably" not appreciative.

Quote:

...can I ask you something gently? Do you, in general, feel surrounded by horrible people? Do MOST people you encounter seem ungrateful/unappreciative and self-absorbed?







If you do, I am so sorry. That totally sucks. Are these people perfect strangers or people close to you? I definitely do know people that seemed really nice until I really got to know them and people who seemed rude but had hearts of gold but that has only happened after knowing them for YEARS and really really well, I can't apply that to strangers....Now that I think about it, I do know exactly what you are talking about, if you are referring to some specific people you have had the misfortune of knowing really well. But why apply that to strangers? Why should only people who DON'T acknowledge kindness be given the benefit of the doubt? Am I misunderstanding what you said? Do you assume that the person who said "thank you" is probably more selfish than the person who didn't acknowledge you at all? Sorry I am being so intrusive, I just find it totally fascinating!!
I don't assume anything at all about people saying "thank you" or not saying "thank you". I don't assume the person saying it is appreciative or that the person not saying it is unappreciative. The words, in and of themselves are meaningless to me...that doesn't tmean they're negative. It means they're meaningless.

I'll take a real situation (ie. not a "thank you for shopping here" that's going to cost someone their job to omit) that's been mentioned a few times in this thread as an example. If a server brings someone a glass of water, and that person says, "thank you" without making eye contact or changing tone or aything, I don't find that inherently any more appreciative or meaningful than if a server brings a glass of water and the person makes eye contact and smiles, with their mouth closed, because they happen to be chewing or something. The words are just...window dressing, I guess. They just don't mean anything to me.

When it's addressed to me, it's all about context and tone. Sometimes, it means something, but the appreciation shows even without the words, so...again, I just don't care about them at all. I use them, because I was well trained in those particular manners (although, like many people I meet locally, I don't seem to say "please" all that much - lots of "thank you", but not so much "please"...for some reason, it doesn't seem to be very common around here). I don't care one way or the other if people say them to me.

Quote:

I was much more self-absorbed and ungrateful when I didn't say thank you as much. It's hard to say which came first, the feeling grateful or the saying thank you...
I'm very self-absorbed in some respects (related to social phobia and shyness, mostly). But, my level of self-absorption goes up and down - probably reaching its peak when Aaron died - and my usage of "thank you" stays pretty steady (with the caveat that I'm sure I just plain didn't even _notice_ things like someone opening the door or stopping to let me pass when the grief was really raw). It's just autopilot stuff. People who think I'm "polite" for it basically think I had good parents, imo.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *berry987* 
Whether or not you agree with saying please and thank you, if you live in N. America, they ARE culturally expected words. And people come off rude when they don't use them. And while many people will say "I don't need my kids to "fit in" to N. American culture" it is a huge disservice IMO to intentionally raise them to _appear_ rude to others.

I touched on this in my last post, but North American culture isn't a monolith. I grew up saying "please" and "thank you", but somewhere along the way, I largely (not completely) dropped "please". I've noticed that's very common around here. It's not used anywhere near as extensively as it was when I was a kid, and the cultural expectation of it isn't very strong.

There are places in North America where manners are such that if I taught my kids to be polite by those lights, I'd be intentionally raising them to appear to be butt-kissers in my own area. (This is an area of slight conflict between me and dh - not so much that we argue, but that our styles are very different - because he's from TN, and manners there are much more ornate than they are here.)


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *berry987* 
VERY well said! I completely agree, especially the part about living in a society where people don't acknowledge someone else's effort.

People saying "please" and "thank you" aren't always acknowledging someone's effort. Sometimes, they're just acknowledging that they were taught to say that in response to certain cues. If you appreciate that kind of "please" and "thank you", then I'm glad for you that people say it. Personally, it makes my skin crawl that this is considered such a big deal, and is used as some kind of barometer of a person's worth.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
People saying "please" and "thank you" aren't always acknowledging someone's effort. Sometimes, they're just acknowledging that they were taught to say that in response to certain cues. If you appreciate that kind of "please" and "thank you", then I'm glad for you that people say it. It makes my skin crawl, personally.

I guess I can't relate only because it is a rare occasion that I doubt person's thank you (I can't even think last time that happen in my life, honestly), and I don't understand what excuse do *I* have not to say it to someone to let them know I noticed their effort.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
We are already a self centered society and I think it would suck to live in a society that encourages that self-centeredness by doing away with polite words.

I don't feel that getting rid of the words encourages self-centeredness at all, so we're operating from very different base worldviews right out the chute.

I was taught that this stuff is important, and saying those words is a habit that would take a lot of effort to break, and I don't see the point. But, that's what it is...a habit that was drilled into me by outside forces.

Actually...it's a shortcut. I don't have to make any real effort to show appreciation or feel grateful, because I can just say "thank you" at the appropriate cue and get a free pass as a "polite, courteous" person, and not a "jerk".

In these threads, the subject of not deliberately handicapping our children by failing to teach them manners comes up over and over again. So, people believe that other people fail to say "please" and "thank you", because their parents didn't teach them right...but still label them (mentally) as "jerks"? Really? "Your parents didn't teach you what they should have, so you're a jerk"? That doesn't sound like a polite, appreciative society to me.


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## bebebradford (Apr 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 
I guess I can't relate only because it is a rare occasion that I doubt person's thank you (I can't even think last time that happen in my life, honestly), and I don't understand what excuse do *I* have not to say it to someone to let them know I noticed their effort.

I agree. Everytime I say thank you I really mean it. I appreciate things others do for me, and I want them to know I appreciate it. My children say it as well, and I know they mean it. I can give them something, and the smile and say" Thank you momma!!". I don't think saying please and thank you are some weird society rule. I mean they are part of our upbringing and a standard we have set, but it's a good one. It all ties into being respectful and kind to others. It's very important that I teach my children how to be respectful and appreciative of others in the real world.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 
I guess I can't relate only because it is a rare occasion that I doubt person's thank you (I can't even think last time that happen in my life, honestly), and I don't understand what excuse do *I* have not to say it to someone to let them know I noticed their effort.

I don't see any reason why people should have to say it. It's that simple. The idea that there should be an excuse not to say a pair of words to someone just blows my mind.

I can't even imagine a world where people said "thank you" on cue, but I could believe they always _meant_ it. I don't 'even get how that works.

You can teach people to say it where "appropriate", or you can teach people to say it out of appreciation. They're two different things. They can certainly overlap, but they're two different things.

I don't exactly "doubt" most people's thank yous. "Doubt" doesn't even come into it. In order to doubt it, I'd have to attach meaning to it. In many cases, I don't.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
If a server brings someone a glass of water, and that person says, "thank you" without making eye contact or changing tone or aything, I don't find that inherently any more appreciative or meaningful than if a server brings a glass of water and the person makes eye contact and smiles, with their mouth closed, because they happen to be chewing or something. The words are just...window dressing, I guess. They just don't mean anything to me.


I could understand if one's mouth is full, and the waitress is in a hurry to turn away. A smile, eye-contact, nod - fine, they are pretty equal to saying the words "thank you", however, I think the reason why this whole not saying thanks deal bugs me is because I live it. My DH, when out at a restaurant per your example, doesn't always say thank you or acknowledge when the waitress refills his coke or brings him the ranch dressing he asked for. It makes me feel embarrassed, TBH, and *I* end up saying it for him many times. And yeah, he's not my child, so I don't say "where are your P's and Q's, honey?" But to relate to the OP, I do think it's important to model and teach this to our children - b/c somewhere along the way my DH didn't make that a habit. I can't imagine being a waitress and having every customer you served not say thank you when you came back and forth to their table. I would probably start to feel crummy and unappreciated. Even if 9 out of 10 people did say thanks, that 1 person might irritate me just b/c it IS expected when you do something for someone else.

I enjoyed azgirls post b/c I have seen my DH change for the better over the years - and I see it in his face/eyes when he says thank you to the bank teller and grateful. Whether or not saying it makes him seem less self-absorbed or entitled or whether it's the other way around - that he's realized at that moment to be thankful, I dunno - but I can see him sorta 'getting it' as opposed to not acknowledging their help and being on his way.

I guess I just see please and thank you as being pretty important in our daily communication with others, and think going through the motions w/o using them, whether one is genuinely thankful inside or not, seems so cold and ungrateful. I don't see any harm at all in modeling and teaching our children to use these social graces inside our home, and out. I, personally, LOVE that my DD often says thank you, mom when I make a yummy dinner or take her shopping with me. It just makes me feel good inside, and that's a positive thing.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
Wouldn't that just be 6 of one, half dozen of the other?

If it's intent that matters, then the word itself doesn't matter. So let's say we replace "Sorry" with "Oompa", "Thank you" with "Loompa", and "Please" with with "ZZzzzzzzzING!". Wouldn't people saying those words (or if we were to make up gestures, or dances, or facial expressions, whatever) STILL be the same thing? It really doesn't matter if you say "please" or "ZZzzzzzzING!", if you're using it as a way to be polite, you're still using That Generic Polite Word.

Right? Or am I missing something?

If you are, I am too. I think those words have meaning even if they are misused. "I love you" can be misused, but it's still meaningful. I don't care what language you say it in...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

My dh has "exquisite" Southern manners. However, he also "fails" to say thank you to servers sometimes. In his case, it's a combination of legal blindness and pretty bad ADD. He simply doesn't notice. It has nothing to do with a lack of appreciation and a lot to do with the way his vision and brain work.

So, the focus on manners in our society makes me look polite, because I have very good awareness (usually) of what's going on around me, and makes my dh look impolite, because he lacks that awareness. Despite the fact that the pleases and thank yous are _far_ more important to him, I'm the one who gets the "not a jerk" prize, for no effort at all.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 

I don't exactly "doubt" most people's thank yous. "Doubt" doesn't even come into it. In order to doubt it, *I'd have to attach meaning to it. In many cases, I don't.*

Ok, maybe I'm getting closer to where we disagree.

You see, I believe in "No act of kindness, no matter how small is every wasted". For me, holding the door AND letting the other person know that you noticed their effort with a quick "thank you" are two little acts of kindness, acknowledging each other's existence, being good to each other in a quick passing moment; and no matter how small, neither one is a waste in my eyes.


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## berry987 (Apr 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
People saying "please" and "thank you" aren't always acknowledging someone's effort. Sometimes, they're just acknowledging that they were taught to say that in response to certain cues. If you appreciate that kind of "please" and "thank you", then I'm glad for you that people say it. Personally, it makes my skin crawl that this is considered such a big deal, and is used as some kind of barometer of a person's worth.

Umm, no one has said anything about people saying "thank you" are _worth_ more. It's just polite, plain and simple. And why on earth would someone say thank you if they weren't recognizing the other persons effort? You seem to be reading a lot into the motives behind other people saying please and thank you. I just don't see the reason to be suspicious - most people I know are good, decent, respectful people...so I assume they are just being nice and polite.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 

So, the focus on manners in our society makes me look polite, because I have very good awareness (usually) of what's going on around me, and makes my dh look impolite, because he lacks that awareness. Despite the fact that the pleases and thank yous are _far_ more important to him, I'm the one who gets the "not a jerk" prize, for no effort at all.


Yes,I think so, b/c the whole reasoning behind saying thank you and being polite is consideration for the person you are speaking to. It doesn't matter if you are in fact grateful you were brought soup to eat but failed to say anything, for whatever reason - it will likely come across as "jerk-y" to the person who served you. They don't know what's inside one's head - all they hear is what comes out of their mouth.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *berry987* 
Umm, no one has said anything about people saying "thank you" are _worth_ more.

Several people upthread agreed that if someone doesn't say "thank you" for having a door held, they think "what a jerk". That's kind of a value judgment, imo.

Quote:

It's just polite, plain and simple. And why on earth would someone say thank you if they weren't recognizing the other persons effort? You seem to be reading a lot into the motives behind other people saying please and thank you. I just don't see the reason to be suspicious - most people I know are good, decent, respectful people...so I assume they are just being nice and polite.
I'm not reading _anything_ into the motives. There are no motives. It's a _habit_. I think I'm probably a reasonably good, decent, respectful person, and most of my thank yous are meaningless. They're a habit. "When presented with this cue, reply with "thank you". Repeat as necessary." is drilled in at a pretty early age.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
Yes,I think so, b/c the whole reasoning behind saying thank you and being polite is consideration for the person you are speaking to. It doesn't matter if you are in fact grateful you were brought soup to eat but failed to say anything, for whatever reason - it will likely come across as "jerk-y" to the person who served you. They don't know what's inside one's head - all they hear is what comes out of their mouth.

This is kind of my point. People make all kinds of assessments about what's going on with other people, based on whether or not they say a particular set of words. It's a huge lie in our culture that these words mean certain things, so we assign those meanings to people who say or don't say them. In dh's case, his failure to say them (sometimes) "means" that he's being unappreciative or rude...except that it actually means he simply didn't see the glass being set down. So, despite the fact that I'm not as polite as he is, I get the credit for not being a jerk, simply because I don't have his particulary physical/neurological handicap.

Several people in this thread have commented that I'm making assumptions about the motives of people who say "please" and "thank you"...while making assumptions about the motives of the people saying (or not saying) "please" and "thank you". I make no assumptions at all.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I'll take a real situation (ie. not a "thank you for shopping here" that's going to cost someone their job to omit) that's been mentioned a few times in this thread as an example. If a server brings someone a glass of water, and that person says, "thank you" without making eye contact or changing tone or aything, I don't find that inherently any more appreciative or meaningful than if a server brings a glass of water and the person makes eye contact and smiles, with their mouth closed, because they happen to be chewing or something. The words are just...window dressing, I guess. They just don't mean anything to me.

But they are both acknowledgments that you (the server) did something for me that I didn't have to do myself. Neither are window dressing.

That same person that smiles nicely to the waiter might just go back to their job and be the biggest jackass boss in the world that makes everyone's job miserable. Because they *smiled* instead of saying saying "thank you" that somehow makes them a more "authentic" person? No, of course not, because their true personality is being a witch. A smile can be just as insincere.

Whether gesture or words, both can be hallow. And really, I think appreciation is a continuum. Saying "thank you" to the waiter will have the appropriate amount of appreciation in the voice. Saying "thank you" to the person that just pulled you from a burning vehicle is going to have the appropriate amount of appreciation in the voice. We're not always "you-saved-my-life-appreciative" but both the waiter and the life-saver need to be thanked for their actions. In word or deed... better yet, both... make eye contact and say "thank you". That's what I'm teaching my dd...you look at the person you are talking to and make some eye contact. Yes... yet another social more I'm burdening my dd with. <sigh>


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 
Ok, maybe I'm getting closer to where we disagree.

You see, I believe in "No act of kindness, no matter how small is every wasted". For me, holding the door AND letting the other person know that you noticed their effort with a quick "thank you" are two little acts of kindness, acknowledging each other's existence, being good to each other in a quick passing moment; and no matter how small, neither one is a waste in my eyes.

Well I acknowledge people's existence all the time...nod of the head, a smile, whatever. But, while I do say "thank you" when someone hold the door (assuming I don't have my mouthful or something), I don't think of it as being an act of kindness. It's just a verbal noise. In most cases, it's fairly heartfelt, as having a door held for me is a pretty big favour when I'm struggling with a bunch of stuff, kids or both. (I remember wanting to just kiss a guy for holding a door when ds1 was a newborn and I was trying to figure out how to handle doors and strollers.) But, sometimes, it's just a cued reflex, and not even particularly well meant. I don't enjoy appearing "jerky" and have been well programmed to express appreciation for certain things, even when I don't feel it. Thus, the guy who "holds the door for me" from 15 feet away, making me feel as though I have to run for it, gets a "thank you", as well. I don't mean it, because I don't find it kind, and don't particularly appreciate it (and strongly suspect, from the number of times I've heard people complain about this, that he's standing there, thinking "come on, lady, hurry up - I haven't got all day").

Cued response. Meaningless, in and of itself.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
But they are both acknowledgments that you (the server) did something for me that I didn't have to do myself. Neither are window dressing.

That same person that smiles nicely to the waiter might just go back to their job and be the biggest jackass boss in the world that makes everyone's job miserable. Because they *smiled* instead of saying saying "thank you" that somehow makes them a more "authentic" person? No, of course not, because their true personality is being a witch. A smile can be just as insincere.

That's true. IME, most people who have their mouth full and still bother to acknowledge the glass (dessert, fork, extra napkin, whatever) are actually trying to acknowledge something. The autopilot "thank you" isn't. This is one of the fundamental places where I don't see things the same way as the majority. I don't see these things as acknowledgements of anything, except that a cue has been given. I might as well say I was polite for heading into class when the bell rang.

Quote:

Whether gesture or words, both can be hallow. And really, I think appreciation is a continuum. Saying "thank you" to the waiter will have the appropriate amount of appreciation in the voice. Saying "thank you" to the person that just pulled you from a burning vehicle is going to have the appropriate amount of appreciation in the voice. We're not always "you-saved-my-life-appreciative" but both the waiter and the life-saver need to be thanked for their actions. In word or deed... better yet, both... make eye contact and say "thank you". That's what I'm teaching my dd...you look at the person you are talking to and make some eye contact. Yes... yet another social more I'm burdening my dd with. <sigh>
Appreciation is a great thing. Social mores? I'm not such a big fan. In any case, if you're teaching your dd to do those things, because it's nice to acknowledge when someone does things for you, I doubt it's a huge burden. If I happen to do something for her, I don't really care one way or the other, is all.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

FTR, my "please"s and "thank you"s are always sincere and heartfelt. ALWAYS.









And it is a value I work hard to instill in my children. Pure appreciation for a kind act performed by someone else.


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## berry987 (Apr 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Cued response. Meaningless, in and of itself.

Why is a cued response meaningless? One can be taught to, on cue, say thank you when appreciative of someone else's effort. I am honestly thankful most of the time when someone holds a door for me, brings me a refill of my drink at a restaurant, helps me with something, etc. So it's a cued response because when I feel gratitude, I say thank you.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

But, while I do say "thank you" when someone hold the door (assuming I don't have my mouthful or something), I don't think of it as being an act of kindness. It's just a verbal noise.
Why don't you just say, "HONK blah snort" at them, instead, then? I mean if it's truly so meaningless?

I think you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater here. So common courtesies are common, and sometimes words are hollow, and people are brusque. Can we all get over that and use a couple words to say that we appreciate what is given, even if we don't have time to make a huge production out of it all?

Taking the time to say those words is in itself the courtesy. If you feel they're too automatic, say something else each time. I know I do. "How kind of you." "Why thank you." "That's so nice of you." "Thanks, I appreciate it."

On low-energy days, I say "thank you".

I worked at Starbucks, which often had a transaction time in the morning of about 15 seconds, tops. A lot of people didn't say thanks. I remember the faces of the people who did. It literally made my day. What "thank you" meant to me:

"Hi. I know we're busy, but I don't see you as an automaton or someone who is basically my coffee galley slave. I recognize that you are a person and deserve to be treated as such, as opposed to being barked orders at like a dog. We aren't friends or anything, but by nodding and smiling, I'm sharing a bit of humanity with you. I appreciate what you do."

Small words can be insincere, but they can also mean so much.

As for automatic responses--this is actually a longstanding ethical dilemma discussed by philosophers. Is an automatic response praiseworthy? On the one hand, we think of praiseworthiness as attributable only to actions performed freely, i.e. chosen. Yet automatic responses or conditioned responses are not performed freely in the classical sense. On the other hand, is not the whole point of becoming a good person and raising good people, to be the sort of person who doesn't even debate or question whether or not to (for example) jump in the lake and save the drowning toddler? Surely, by conditioning one's self to be that hero by always thinking of others and selflessly serving others, one is not in fact turning himself into an immoral or amoral person!

I automatically don't steal. Honestly, I really don't debate it. It's been decades since I was tempted by the pack of gum at the checkout counter. Does that make me as bad as the thief, or any less of a thief than the person who wants to steal, but doesn't?

Likewise, if I AUTOMATICALLY appreciate what others do from me and verbalize that, how is it less good or sincere?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Why don't you just say, "HONK blah snort" at them, instead, then? I mean if it's truly so meaningless?

Because I wasn't trained to say "HONK blah snort", for one thing. Besides, enough people think I'm nuts as it is...I don't need to give them any more fuel, thanks!

Quote:

I worked at Starbucks, which often had a transaction time in the morning of about 15 seconds, tops. A lot of people didn't say thanks. I remember the faces of the people who did. It literally made my day. What "thank you" meant to me:

"Hi. I know we're busy, but I don't see you as an automaton or someone who is basically my coffee galley slave. I recognize that you are a person and deserve to be treated as such, as opposed to being barked orders at like a dog. We aren't friends or anything, but by nodding and smiling, I'm sharing a bit of humanity with you. I appreciate what you do."
I haven't worked retail. I did work reception (well...kind of - the front desk was part of my job, anyway) for many years. I also had many small transactions each day. And, what "thank you" usually meant was...well, not much of anything, to be honest. (Sometimes, it meant "I've been trained to show my appreciation by making a verbal noise at you, therefore I'm going to waste a couple seconds of your time, which doesn't seem like a big deal to me, but I don't have 14 other lines ringing".)

Likewise, I said "please" about 100 times a day (okay - probably not every day). It meant "this is the set speech I have to give you before my finger plunges to the "hold" button, otherwise you'll complain and I may get a reprimand".

Quote:

As for automatic responses--this is actually a longstanding ethical dilemma discussed by philosophers. Is an automatic response praiseworthy? On the one hand, we think of praiseworthiness as attributable only to actions performed freely, i.e. chosen. Yet automatic responses or conditioned responses are not performed freely in the classical sense. On the other hand, is not the whole point of becoming a good person and raising good people, to be the sort of person who doesn't even debate or question whether or not to (for example) jump in the lake and save the drowning toddler? Surely, by conditioning one's self to be that hero by always thinking of others and selflessly serving others, one is not in fact turning himself into an immoral or amoral person!
This is so far afield from saying a word that I can't even follow the extension very well. Obviously, we try to teach our children to value other people's lives, time, property, efforts, etc. etc. etc.

Quote:

Likewise, if I AUTOMATICALLY appreciate what others do from me and verbalize that, how is it less good or sincere?
It's not. I'm not talking about automatically appreciating something. I'm talking about automatically _saying_ something. "Thank you" doesn't inherently mean "I appreciate you/what you did".


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Appreciation is a great thing. Social mores? I'm not such a big fan. In any case, if you're teaching your dd to do those things, because it's nice to acknowledge when someone does things for you, I doubt it's a huge burden.

Actually, I'm surprised that I even said that. For some kids, it is a big burden. Maybe that's why this strikes home for me more than it used to. DS1 easily picked up on all this stuff, and never batted an eyelash at making the appropriate noises at the appropriate cues. DD1 has a bloody awful time with it, and I've reached the point that I hate that she's learning that being embarrassed, humiliated and made a spectacle of doesn't matter, as long as she does what other people expect of her and shows her "appreciation" of attention, gifts, etc. that she doesn't want, anyway.

Other people might think we're good parents for teaching her this stuff. I feel like an ogre.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 
Ok, maybe I'm getting closer to where we disagree.

You see, I believe in "No act of kindness, no matter how small is every wasted". For me, holding the door AND letting the other person know that you noticed their effort with a quick "thank you" are two little acts of kindness, acknowledging each other's existence, being good to each other in a quick passing moment; and no matter how small, neither one is a waste in my eyes.

This!


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Actually, I'm surprised that I even said that. For some kids, it is a big burden. Maybe that's why this strikes home for me more than it used to. DS1 easily picked up on all this stuff, and never batted an eyelash at making the appropriate noises at the appropriate cues. DD1 has a bloody awful time with it, and I've reached the point that I hate that she's learning that being embarrassed, humiliated and made a spectacle of doesn't matter, as long as she does what other people expect of her and shows her "appreciation" of attention, gifts, etc. that she doesn't want, anyway.

Other people might think we're good parents for teaching her this stuff. I feel like an ogre.

If you think people are humiliating/embarrassing/making a spectacle your child you should tell them to lay off. There's nothing wrong with setting boundaries. No one here thinks that children should be forced to be polite when people are abusing them.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Well I acknowledge people's existence all the time...nod of the head, a smile, whatever. But, while I do say "thank you" when someone hold the door (assuming I don't have my mouthful or something), I *don't think of it as being an act of kindness.* It's just a verbal noise. .

Of course it is. It's a small gesture of appreciation, a small act of kindness. You can choose not to say anything, if it's truly that meaningless as you say.









You are acknowledging the person holding the door. You don't have to do that. When you choose to say thank you, you are choosing not to ignore the person that just did something nice for you. That's a tiny act of kindness that lets other people know you see them. No matter how small - never wasted.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 
Of course it is. It's a small gesture of appreciation, a small act of kindness. You can choose not to say anything, if it's truly that meaningless as you say.









You are acknowledging the person holding the door. You don't have to do that. When you choose to say thank you, you are choosing not to ignore the person that just did something nice for you. That's a tiny act of kindness that lets other people know you see them. No matter how small - never wasted.









For most people though, it is not an act of kindness. It's reflexive response they have because they were taught from an early age that how they feel or act that makes them polite, but it's what they say. As long as they say "thank you" they are good people even if they only say it because it's expected.

There have been many instances where I have felt acknowledged without a single word from the other person, and there have been even more instances where I have felt like I don't actually exist by people who have said "thank you".


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
For most people though, it is not an act of kindness. It's reflexive response they have because they were taught from an early age that how they feel or act that makes them polite, but it's what they say. As long as they say "thank you" they are good people even if they only say it because it's expected.

There have been many instances where I have felt acknowledged without a single word from the other person, and there have been even more instances where I have felt like I don't actually exist by people who have said "thank you".

But it isn't the words that are the problem in these cases. It is the ability of some people to convey gratitude and others to accept it authentically based on the common courtesies around "please and thanks". Based on this thread it seems to me that those who are able to acknowledge there is value in those words also work hard to convey gratitude authentically and to teach the art of appreciation and the value in expressing it in a socially normative way to their kids.

As we can't always know what is behind another person's intent when the say please or thanks, we can either choose to see things with positive intent or choose to be cynical about the intent of others. I'd rather live in the world with the former.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
For most people though, it is not an act of kindness. It's *reflexive response* they have because they were taught from an early age that how they feel or act that makes them polite, but it's what they say. As long as they say "thank you" they are good people even if they only say it because it's expected.

I see it as a choice. I can choose not to say it, unlike Pavlov's dogs couldn't quite choose not to salivate, yk?

Assuming that people only say for their own good appearance is assuming the worst of people. This is not my approach to life, yk? I choose to assume the best.

Quote:

There have been many instances where I have felt acknowledged without a single word from the other person, and there have been even more instances where I have felt like I don't actually exist by people who have said "thank you".
Again, I have no idea where you guys are coming from, because that has not been my experience over here. In this area, most times when people don't say thank you for the little things - they act entitled all around. Can I envision a scenario where thank yous are said with rudeness? Sure. But I cannot recall last time someone saying thank you in a rude way to me. I CAN recall a few scenarios where I observed or experienced people not saying thank you and not acting with appreciation, yk?

If words are as meaningless as you say, does that mean that you will not say it when you ask for directions and the person tells you how to get to the place? Does it mean you will not say thank you to the person holding the door? If actions speak louder than words - then your actions will tell you how you really feel about those words. Do you say them?


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## LaLaLaLa (Oct 29, 2007)

I was thinking about this thread this morning. I sometimes run in the mornings, on the streets near my house. Most of the streets don't have sidewalks, so I'm running on the side of the road, facing traffic. Some of the cars coming toward me come within inches with their side-view mirrors. Other cars swerve way out to give me several feet of space when they pass.

This morning I was reflecting on the fact that, when cars swerve around me, I tend to give a little wave and a silent "thank you". I actually think the words in my head. When I noticed this morning that I was doing this, I at first thought it was a little dumb.







Obviously the people to whom I am directing my thanks don't hear it.

However, the act of thanking people who do me a kindness makes me more aware of the fact that such kindness exists. Thanking people may be partly automatic, but at the same time it pulls me into a bit of gratitude, which then makes me further appreciate the things in my life that deserve thanks. Don't positive-thinking gurus sometimes advise people to start gratitude journals, in which they write down things they are thankful for, in order to get into a more positive frame of mind? Saying thank-you out loud (or in my head), gets me into the same space--recognizing and showing appreciation for acts of kindness, even very small ones like not mowing me down as I jog on the side of the road.









I like to say it. I say thank-you all the time for things that don't even need thanks: "Thanks, kids, for going to the amusement park with me!" and "Thanks, DD, for suggesting we have donuts for a treat; they were delicious." are the most recent two. I guess I see thanking someone as being an act of warmth, rather than an act of oppression, and saying it benefits me as much as receiving it.

I like please and sorry, too, but maybe not on as deep a level.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
And, what "thank you" usually meant was...well, not much of anything, to be honest. (Sometimes, it meant "I've been trained to show my appreciation by making a verbal noise at you, therefore I'm going to waste a couple seconds of your time, which doesn't seem like a big deal to me, but I don't have 14 other lines ringing".)

Likewise, I said "please" about 100 times a day (okay - probably not every day). It meant "this is the set speech I have to give you before my finger plunges to the "hold" button, otherwise you'll complain and I may get a reprimand".

I actually find this kind of sad to be honest... Like you're not able to appreciate appreciation (







sounds funny to say it that way). I always assume the best of people. When I hear thank you, I assume they felt grateful or wanted me to feel appreciated. When I hear please, I assume they want to come across as gentle & respectful. I appreciate the little things in life (a thank you, an appreciative smile, etc.) and they bring me happiness. I don't think anything negatively ('what a jerk') of someone who doesn't say those things, because again, I like to think the best of everyone. Thinking the best of people brings me joy. It makes my interactions with others more enjoyable. I feel like if I don't appreciate the little things, my life would be severely lacking.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I don't feel that getting rid of the words encourages self-centeredness at all, so we're operating from very different base worldviews right out the chute.

I was taught that this stuff is important, and saying those words is a habit that would take a lot of effort to break, and I don't see the point. But, that's what it is...a habit that was drilled into me by outside forces.

Actually...it's a shortcut. I don't have to make any real effort to show appreciation or feel grateful, because I can just say "thank you" at the appropriate cue and get a free pass as a "polite, courteous" person, and not a "jerk".

In these threads, the subject of not deliberately handicapping our children by failing to teach them manners comes up over and over again. So, people believe that other people fail to say "please" and "thank you", because their parents didn't teach them right...but still label them (mentally) as "jerks"? Really? "Your parents didn't teach you what they should have, so you're a jerk"? That doesn't sound like a polite, appreciative society to me.

I don't recall calling anyone a jerk or saying I think bad things about them. Adults make their own decisions about values and I don't judge parents. You are right that we as a society shouldn't make judgements about behavior based on our belief about other people's motives. We should try to understand their motives and assume the best. What I said was I don't think we should encourage self-centeredness and one way of doing that is to model polite words (as well as truly showing appreciation obviously). I don't give insincere automatic reactions to anything in my life so that may be why I have no idea where you are coming from. I am thankful for many things people do for me even if I am paying for a service or they are so little that some people think they are entitled to them without acknowledging them so the argument that these things are just automatic and meaningless seems false to me (and probably to the many posters who have also stated that they don't just say these words with insincerity).

I think that entitled attitudes, deciding that because you do something with specific motivations or just by habits that everyone else does, and an unwillingness to look into why we as a society have developed a value that encourages acknowledgment for small deeds done by strangers is part of the self-centered attitude that I hope our society moves away from. I find it sad that we are getting to a point as a society where some people can't be moved to appreciate other members of society and the things these members do for them with even so much as a small and sincere thank you or some other sign of acknowledgment. I hope we as a society can move more towards acknowledging each other and moving out of our tendency to focus only on ourselves as valid.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
But it isn't the words that are the problem in these cases. It is the ability of some people to convey gratitude and others to accept it authentically based on the common courtesies around "please and thanks". Based on this thread it seems to me that those who are able to acknowledge there is value in those words also work hard to convey gratitude authentically and to teach the art of appreciation and the value in expressing it in a socially normative way to their kids.

As we can't always know what is behind another person's intent when the say please or thanks, we can either choose to see things with positive intent or choose to be cynical about the intent of others. I'd rather live in the world with the former.

It would be easier to accept the authenticity if only those who were being authentic used it.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scottishmommy* 
If you think people are humiliating/embarrassing/making a spectacle your child you should tell them to lay off. There's nothing wrong with setting boundaries. No one here thinks that children should be forced to be polite when people are abusing them.

An expectation of "please" and "thank you" is sufficient to cause that kind of pressure on dd1, all by itself. She goes through absolute hell over this stuff, and it's incredibly painful to watch.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
she's learning that being embarrassed, humiliated and made a spectacle of doesn't matter, as long as she does what other people expect of her and shows her "appreciation" of attention, gifts, etc. that she doesn't want, anyway.

Last Christmas, I drew the line when my mother insisted my ds give his uncle a hug for a present. Ds didn't want to. (He did say thank you, though.) My mother threw a fit about the lack of a hug, and I told her we're trying to respect his boundaries, and she told me I'm raising children w/o manners.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy* 
I actually find this kind of sad to be honest... Like you're not able to appreciate appreciation (







sounds funny to say it that way).

What appreciation are you talking about? It was great when people appreciated the things I did. But, I was talking about the rote "thank you" on the phone that accomplished nothing in that regard, and occasionally wasted time I didn't have to waste. (It wasn't always that bad, but there really were times that I didn't have that half second to wait for someone to say "thaink you", because I was putting his/her call through...but if I didn't wait, I was being rude.)

Quote:

I always assume the best of people. When I hear thank you, I assume they felt grateful or wanted me to feel appreciated.
Barring a particular tone of voice, I don't assume that at all. YMMV, but I have no reason to assume that.

Quote:

When I hear please, I assume they want to come across as gentle & respectful.
Maybe so (or it may just be rote), but I don't really care if someone "wants to come across" as those things. What's-his-name (Eddie?) on Leave it to Beaver wanted to come across as those things! Wanting to come across as gentle and respectful and _being_ gentle and respectful are two different things.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
What appreciation are you talking about? It was great when people appreciated the things I did.

In your posts you say many times that thank yous are meaningless. It appears that you do not appreciate hearing those words, and in most cases assume that they mean nothing and are an annoyance if nothing else.

You say you don't care if someone says it to you. That means, you won't care if I say "thank you" as you hold a door open for me. I would mean it with kindness - and you wouldn't care. Don't you that's sad?

So I think crunchy_mummy says she finds it sad that you don't seem "appreciate appreciation" when it comes in the form of "thank you", you automatically assume I didn't mean it. kwim?


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## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
Last Christmas, I drew the line when my mother insisted my ds give his uncle a hug for a present. Ds didn't want to. (He did say thank you, though.) My mother threw a fit about the lack of a hug, and I told her we're trying to respect his boundaries, and she told me I'm raising children w/o manners.









I absolutely, absolutely do not think kids should be expected to hug when they don't want to. He said thank you, and I would have been fine with that, too, A&A. Want to throw a fit about lack of hugging, and I'll hit you with my soapbox speech straight out of "Protecting the Gift", right in the middle of the Christmas gathering. Watch out, holiday spirit, I'm coming for you.










Seriously, though - I do expect a thank you from my kids for what they receive. I will never pressure them into unwanted physical contact with anyone....parents'/ILs' feelings about manners be damned.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 
In your posts you say many times that thank yous are meaningless. It appears that you do not appreciate hearing those words, and in most cases assume that they mean nothing and are an annoyance if nothing else.

You say you don't care if someone says it to you. That means, you won't care if I say "thank you" as you hold a door open for me. I would mean it with kindness - and you wouldn't care. Don't you that's sad?

So I think crunchy_mummy says she finds it sad that you don't seem "appreciate appreciation" when it comes in the form of "thank you", you automatically assume I didn't mean it. kwim?

I don't really assume anything about why you said it or whether you, particularly, mean it. I honestly may not even notice it. I'd probably (barring such things as extreme grief or being preoccupied with a kamikaze toddler) notice your general demeanour, but I wouldn't notice if you had or hadn't said "thank you". No - I don't find that sad. I'm not sure why anybody would.

In the context of one of my former jobs, those words sometimes _were_ an annoyance, and my own phone routine ("Can you _please_ hold?" "One moment, _please_." "_Thank you_ for calling X&Y Advertising.") expressed precisely nothing.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
Last Christmas, I drew the line when my mother insisted my ds give his uncle a hug for a present. Ds didn't want to. (He did say thank you, though.) My mother threw a fit about the lack of a hug, and I told her we're trying to respect his boundaries, and she told me I'm raising children w/o manners.









IMO, anybody trying to force a child to hug someone they don't want to hug has _no_ business talking about anyone else's manners.


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## Tway (Jul 1, 2010)

I went shopping around town today, and kinda has this thread in mind. I got a nice, loud "Hello!" when I entered one store, a "thank you" when I left, a whole series of "thank-yous" at Starbucks, a really nice man went out of his way to hold 2 doors at the bank, plus I got a bunch of thank-yous from the people we had over for dinner.

And just paying attention to all these common courtesies really made my day. I don't know how many were sincere or how many were automatisms; I still feel like people saw me as a human being and went out of their way to make me feel just a little special. I hope my simple pleases and thanks you make someone else's day, too, sometimes.


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## bebebradford (Apr 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tway* 
I went shopping around town today, and kinda has this thread in mind. I got a nice, loud "Hello!" when I entered one store, a "thank you" when I left, a whole series of "thank-yous" at Starbucks, a really nice man went out of his way to hold 2 doors at the bank, plus I got a bunch of thank-yous from the people we had over for dinner.

And just paying attention to all these common courtesies really made my day. I don't know how many were sincere or how many were automatisms; I still feel like people saw me as a human being and went out of their way to make me feel just a little special. I hope my simple pleases and thanks you make someone else's day, too, sometimes.

I'm sure they do make other people feel just as good!








You don't understand-there are SO many rude people in my area. It's painful to see really. I was pregnant(like 8mos!) and almost got hit by a car( seriously he stopped maybe a foot from me) because some guy was hauling butt through a parking lot. He SAW me.. and GAVE ME a dirty look. My town is full of people like that. SO, when I do come across someone who is sweet and takes the time hold the door for me,etc I really appreciate it. And while I always hold the door for people, it puts a smile on my face when someone tells me that they appreciate it.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Because I wasn't trained to say "HONK blah snort", for one thing. Besides, enough people think I'm nuts as it is...I don't need to give them any more fuel, thanks!

LOL... You should try it. Lighten them up a little.

Quote:


I haven't worked retail. I did work reception (well...kind of - the front desk was part of my job, anyway) for many years. I also had many small transactions each day. And, what "thank you" usually meant was...well, not much of anything, to be honest. (Sometimes, it meant "I've been trained to show my appreciation by making a verbal noise at you, therefore I'm going to waste a couple seconds of your time, which doesn't seem like a big deal to me, but I don't have 14 other lines ringing".)
Wow, you really assume the worst in those other people. Perhaps that's where the problem is coming from? "Don't bother with being polite because I know you're a jerk anyway?"

In that case, I can understand wanting to minimize human contact in general.

I think you are wrong about people, though.

Quote:

Likewise, I said "please" about 100 times a day (okay - probably not every day). It meant "this is the set speech I have to give you before my finger plunges to the "hold" button, otherwise you'll complain and I may get a reprimand".
I think I see where this misanthropy is coming from. You don't mean anything when you use the words, so you assume others are just as thoughtless.

Consider for a moment the possibility that other people are actually more thoughtful, caring, and nicer than you. I don't mean that snarkily. I mean, you don't care about our feelings when you use the words--they are hollow to you--but could you accept the remote possibility that other people DO care?

Quote:

This is so far afield from saying a word that I can't even follow the extension very well. Obviously, we try to teach our children to value other people's lives, time, property, efforts, etc. etc. etc.
Let me summarize:
Point: If it's automatic, it's meaningless because it's the thought (deliberation, choice) that counts.
Counterpoint: No, the best people are those who have internalized the love so that they don't have to even think about it.

Applies to manners as well as good deeds.

Quote:

It's not. I'm not talking about automatically appreciating something. I'm talking about automatically _saying_ something. "Thank you" doesn't inherently mean "I appreciate you/what you did".
Apparently not when you say it. When I say it, it does!


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I think I see where this misanthropy is coming from. You don't mean anything when you use the words, so you assume others are just as thoughtless.









When I answer my phone at work & say general pleasantries like "Thank you for calling" or "One moment please," I actually mean them. I want the people calling me to feel happy, welcomed, at ease, respected, etc. and it has nothing to do with keeping my job (I work from home, my boss would never know if I didn't say them). I can't think of an instance where I've said these words and not meant them. I'm sure there are people out there who say them & don't mean them but I think most of us DO mean it. That's why it makes me happy to hear them. I still feel it's sad that you just assume the worst of people.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I don't really assume anything about why you said it or whether you, particularly, mean it. I honestly may not even notice it. I'd probably (barring such things as extreme grief or being preoccupied with a kamikaze toddler) notice your general demeanour, but I wouldn't notice if you had or hadn't said "thank you". No - I don't find that sad. I'm not sure why anybody would.

maybe because people extend a gesture of kindness (whether or not you care about it), and you don't even notice it?

I don't know if I am that much different from majority - I can't always read a person, but I can always notice a "thank you". What if the person looks gruff on a certain day, and their only way to reach out to you is a "thank you"? You notice how someone carries themselves on a bad day, and wrongly assume they don't mean their thank you?

Then again, on one hand, you insist that you don't assume anything, and on another you keep repeating that thank yous are meaningless (that is an assumption, imho).


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

You know, in this same vein, every time I hear someone sneeze I reflexively say "God bless you!"

It's a reaction....but as soon as those words _begin_ to come out of my mouth, I also very sincerely MEAN them.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
It would be easier to accept the authenticity if only those who were being authentic used it.

Perhaps they are being authentic and it is negative assumptions that cause you to read it wrong.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Because I wasn't trained to say "HONK blah snort", for one thing. Besides, enough people think I'm nuts as it is...I don't need to give them any more fuel, thanks!

I haven't worked retail. I did work reception (well...kind of - the front desk was part of my job, anyway) for many years. I also had many small transactions each day. And, what "thank you" usually meant was...well, not much of anything, to be honest. (Sometimes, it meant "I've been trained to show my appreciation by making a verbal noise at you, therefore I'm going to waste a couple seconds of your time, which doesn't seem like a big deal to me, but I don't have 14 other lines ringing".)

Likewise, I said "please" about 100 times a day (okay - probably not every day). It meant "this is the set speech I have to give you before my finger plunges to the "hold" button, otherwise you'll complain and I may get a reprimand".

This is so far afield from saying a word that I can't even follow the extension very well. Obviously, we try to teach our children to value other people's lives, time, property, efforts, etc. etc. etc.

It's not. I'm not talking about automatically appreciating something. I'm talking about automatically _saying_ something. "Thank you" doesn't inherently mean "I appreciate you/what you did".

I just have to say that I am sorry that this is your perspective on the world and humankind. Perhaps I just walk around with rose-colored glasses on, but I'd like to think that when someone tells me "thank you", they are being human... even respectful... because they are social creatures like myself and know that these pleasantries just help everyone get through the day better. For everyone reading... *thank you* for your "thank you"s, your "please"s and your "I'm sorry"s.







You make MY day brighter.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
It would be easier to accept the authenticity if only those who were being authentic used it.

Never. Gonna. Happen. Your choices are:

Occasionally or even often mistake mean people for kind people, but rarely the other way 'round.
Occasionally or even often mistake kind people for mean people, but rarely the other way 'round.
"Everybody be completely honest about who they are and the exact degree to which they feel something at all times" is not an option. Sorry.

Yeah, that last part was intentionally ironic.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I just have to say that I am sorry that this is your perspective on the world and humankind. Perhaps I just walk around with rose-colored glasses on, but I'd like to think that when someone tells me "thank you", they are being human... even respectful... because they are social creatures like myself and know that these pleasantries just help everyone get through the day better. For everyone reading... *thank you* for your "thank you"s, your "please"s and your "I'm sorry"s.







*You make MY day brighter*.

This whole thread has made me to pay attention to what do people's faces actually look like when they say those things in the past couple of days. And you know what? They look pretty genuine to me. So I'm with you.

I'll continue saying it and continue to believe that vast majority actually means something good with those words. Is it possible that someone out there doesn't care if I said thank you to them? I guess so. Is it possible someone didn't mean a thank you they just told me? Guess so. But hey, I choose to wear the same rose-tinted glasses, and I assume people do it for exact same reasons I do - because they mean well and want to show appreciation for my small action. I am confident I will not be wrong too many times.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Wow, you really assume the worst in those other people. Perhaps that's where the problem is coming from? "Don't bother with being polite because I know you're a jerk anyway?"

I think you completely missed my point. I didn't think those people were jerks. But, there were times when I simply had too many lines ringing to have _time_ to listen to "thank you" (yes, I am aware that sounds insane, but it's true nonetheless), and cutting them off while they were still talking would have been rude, and unprofessional. I don't know where you got "assuming the worst" about people from the fact that I didn't have time to listen to it.

Quote:

I think I see where this misanthropy is coming from. You don't mean anything when you use the words, so you assume others are just as thoughtless.
No, sometimes I don't. It's trained in. In the particular situation I was talking about, it was a job requirement. No - I wasn't really appreciative of receiving the same telemarketing call for the 10th time that morning. The things I said on the phone were _required_ by my job.

Quote:

Consider for a moment the possibility that other people are actually more thoughtful, caring, and nicer than you. I don't mean that snarkily. I mean, you don't care about our feelings when you use the words--they are hollow to you--but could you accept the remote possibility that other people DO care?
No. I can't. That's why I keep saying that _nobody_ means it and _every single person_ only means it as a habit, and that people who those words are heartless jerks. Oh, wait - no, I don't. I haven't said that at all. Of cours some people mean it. But, not everybody means anything by it. They're words. They don't mean anything to _me_, personally...somewhat more when I'm saying them (usually) than when I'm on the receiving end, but still not much.

And, you're actually making my point. If I say words that I've been taught to say, and don't mean them in a heartfelt and sincere way every time, then I'm not as "thoughtful, caring and nice" as other people? Seriously? Some of the nicest, most caring and thoughtful people I've ever known have had "bad manners", and some of the _lease_ caring, thoughtful and nice people I've ever known have had exquisite manners. The two are separate concepts.

For what it's worth, I'm well aware that many people are nicer, more thoughtful and more caring than I am. And, some of those people don't say "please" and "thank you".

Quote:

Let me summarize:
Point: If it's automatic, it's meaningless because it's the thought (deliberation, choice) that counts.
Counterpoint: No, the best people are those who have internalized the love so that they don't have to even think about it.

Applies to manners as well as good deeds.
I disagree with your counterpoint. I'm sure there are people who have "internalized the love" such that every single "please" and "thank you" is genuine (although I don't see that as saying those words automatically - that's automatically feeling apprecation - which I'll admit sounds odd to me, but I think I know what you mean - and then using the appropriate words). I disagree that those are the "best people". This is actually the thing about "manners" that gets my goat. It's the assumption that people who use those words are the "best people". So arrogant.

I've been accused throughout this thread of making assumptions about people who say these words, but people seem to be proud of making assumptions about people who don't. How does that work?

Quote:

Apparently not when you say it. When I say it, it does!
The words are meaningless, in and of themselves. If you say them with an underlying love, appreciation, etc, then they're not. What does that to do with training children to say "please" and "thank you"?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy* 







When I answer my phone at work & say general pleasantries like "Thank you for calling" or "One moment please," I actually mean them. I want the people calling me to feel happy, welcomed, at ease, respected, etc. and it has nothing to do with keeping my job (I work from home, my boss would never know if I didn't say them). I can't think of an instance where I've said these words and not meant them. I'm sure there are people out there who say them & don't mean them but I think most of us DO mean it. That's why it makes me happy to hear them.

FWIW, I know a _lot_ of people who _hate_ the "thank you for calling", "thank you for choosing X Company", etc. etc stuff. It doesn't make them feel "happy, welcomed, at ease, respected, etc." at all. It doesn't particulary bother _me_, but it does bother a lot of people. In any case, I didn't say it for those reasons. I said it because it was _part of the job_. I'm not a people person, and reception is not my thing. (It was one part of a job that I otherwise loved, and I was _very_ good at it, but I don't like it.) Lots of jobs require people to say things like that, and I think it's a bit ridiculous to assume that every single receptionist, cashier, help desk person, telemarketer, etc. etc. etc. means it every single time they say it. I've talked to more than enough people working in those various fields to know that they simply don't.

Quote:

I still feel it's sad that you just assume the worst of people.
I think it's sad that people have apparently read every post I've made in this thread and _still_ think I "assume the worst of people". I may not assume the best (that _every single person_ who says those words means them from the bottom of their hearts in _every single situation_), but I don't assume the worst, either.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I just have to say that I am sorry that this is your perspective on the world and humankind. Perhaps I just walk around with rose-colored glasses on, but I'd like to think that when someone tells me "thank you", they are being human... even respectful... because they are social creatures like myself and *know that these pleasantries just help everyone get through the day better*. For everyone reading... *thank you* for your "thank you"s, your "please"s and your "I'm sorry"s.







You make MY day brighter.

The bolded part is wrong. They _think_ those pleasantries help "everyone" get through the day better. They can't know something that isn't true.

As for the thing about my reception work...I actually get the feeling you're all surprised that I didn't "mean" it every time. I'm honestly a little shocked. I've had many friends and acquaintances who have worked "front line" jobs. Almost all of them have complained, in my hearing, at least once, about the "spiel" they have to deliver to every single customer. This isn't just about me. I had no idea there were people who actually took that stuff seriously, except as a gauge of someone's performance.

I will freely admit that if you can say "Thank you for calling X Company" and/or "please hold" 100 times in an hour and really, really mean it every time, you're absolutely, no doubt in my mind, a much more caring, and probably outgoing, person than I'll ever be. I couldn't do that.

But, it really doesn't matter, because I still said the words. That's what counts.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Well, when you are marketing something I don't want, your manners is just about the only thing you have to offer now, eh?









Quote:

It's the assumption that people who *use those words are the "best people"*. So arrogant.
I don't think that at all. I simply think that saying thank you is a nice thing, vs. something useless that I don't care to notice and don't care whether or not someone just said it to me, yk? I can understand that someone might have a reason for not saying it be it due to social awkwardness, or rush, or having a bad day. I don't assume someone is a bad person if they didn't say it, I simply don't question the best intentions of people who do say it, yk?

Quote:

I've been accused throughout this thread of making assumptions about people who say these words, but people seem to be proud of making assumptions about people who don't. How does that work?
Not true. I don't think you are accused of anything, I think people are simply trusting your own statements: you don't see the words as meaningful (which naturally will get a reaction, as many people do mean them), you don't notice when people say them to you and don't care (if dsd says "thank you", and I don't care, that's not a very heartwarming picture, I think it applies to other people as well, yk?). Why would you be surprised that someone disagrees with this and puts more meaning into words and interactions with others?

Quote:

The words are meaningless, in and of themselves. If you say them with an underlying love, appreciation, etc, then they're not. What does that to do with training children to say "please" and "thank you"?
It's important to teach children not only to say words and but also to mean them?


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
An expectation of "please" and "thank you" is sufficient to cause that kind of pressure on dd1, all by itself. She goes through absolute hell over this stuff, and it's incredibly painful to watch.

Why does the expectation that she will use conventional forms of politeness cause your daughter to go through such hell?


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

I was thinking about this thread all day today, and it suddenly dawned on me that this whole debate may be more of an extrovert/introvert thing. I'm an extreme extrovert, so much so that I have very few introvert friends cause I drive them CRAZY. However, in society my extrovert personality comes off as very friendly, sweet, warm, loving to and, well, polite. It's not just that I've been trained to say please and thank you, it's that I feed off of other people's happiness. What isn't more polite than that, right? My dh on the other hand is an extreme introvert (I know, very weird huh). He has a lot of trouble showing affection, making small talk, noticing when other people do nice things for him, and generally feels really drained by other people. I can imagine that it is very hard for him to say please and thank you, etc, because it zaps all his energy. It's just one more thing he HAS TO DO to get along in our society. I'm sure these things are actually slightly painful for him.
I think that overall american culture really values extroverts. We often think that introverts are rude and self centered and "creepy". I can see how it would be very, very hard to force yourself to acknowledge other people if you feel overwhelmed and drained by them. For an extrovert that sounds totally crazy. How could anyone not enjoy other people's happiness? We extroverts spend a huge amount of our energy connecting with other people, whether they are strangers or spouses. It actually increases our own energy to sort of pour ourselves out to other people. I wonder if other cultures simply value that sort of personality less so there are fewer expectations of outright friendliness and attention. Today at the grocery store I was standing next to these two Middle Eastern ladies. I noticed how reserved their communication was. One would ask a question and the other would just sort of grunt. That would never fly among my group of friends. We make eye contact, we touch each other, there's a sort of social racketball going on constantly. Perhaps those women are from a culture that values quiet, reserved human contact.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama* 
Why does the expectation that she will use conventional forms of politeness cause your daughter to go through such hell?

I have no idea. I've never seen anything like it before. She just has a lot of trouble with that kind of thing. She's finally getting to where it's not quite so bad, but it's been a long, hard road.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
FWIW, I know a _lot_ of people who _hate_ the "thank you for calling", "thank you for choosing X Company", etc. etc stuff. It doesn't make them feel "happy, welcomed, at ease, respected, etc." at all.

OK I am talking more about when I'm having a real conversation with a client. I've never said "thank you for calling XYZ company" -- I just wouldn't say that. I might say, "Hi, how are you today, could you please hold for a minute, OK I'm back, thanks for holding, what can I do for you?" and then "OK I'll take care that right away, I'm sorry we didn't catch that sooner, thank you for being so patient" etc. things like that... or when I used to work in a coffee shop, "Here's your coffee, thank you, have a great day!" Basically I treat clients & customers as human beings not people I have to deal with to get my job done... I can't imagine being too busy to say or listen to thank you... it takes literally a second or two & makes the whole experience a little more personal. I've been incredibly busy (trust me, I alone replaced a 6-person team) but I still never felt like Thank you was a waste of my limited time.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I think it's sad that people have apparently read every post I've made in this thread and _still_ think I "assume the worst of people". I may not assume the best (that _every single person_ who says those words means them from the bottom of their hearts in _every single situation_), but I don't assume the worst, either.

But you ARE assuming the worst when you assume that most people don't really MEAN thank you, please, etc. You are assuming that they don't truly care about you, you are assuming that they are self-absorbed, you're assuming that they are parrots who repeat the words they were taught to say with no feeling behind it. I don't see how you can say that's NOT assuming the worst?

I know from other threads you've both posted on that you definitely have a unique worldview, and maybe there are more cultural/geographical differences at play than what we're really seeing in this thread. I'll admit I'm very curious what your life is like, what the people you generally encounter are like, I kind of feel like you're from a whole 'nother planet so to speak, & I'm fascinated by you view on things!!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scottishmommy* 
I was thinking about this thread all day today, and it suddenly dawned on me that this whole debate may be more of an extrovert/introvert thing.

I was actually wondering a little about that last night, as well.

Quote:

I'm an extreme extrovert, so much so that I have very few introvert friends cause I drive them CRAZY. However, in society my extrovert personality comes off as very friendly, sweet, warm, loving to and, well, polite. It's not just that I've been trained to say please and thank you, it's that I feed off of other people's happiness. What isn't more polite than that, right? My dh on the other hand is an extreme introvert (I know, very weird huh).
It's not so weird. It actually happens quite a lot. DH and I are both introverts (we're _also_ both social phobic, although that manifests a bit differently in each of us - without the net, I'm sure we'd have never met, even if we'd lived close to each other). But, my ex was definitely an extravert, as is ds1.

Quote:

He has a lot of trouble showing affection, making small talk, noticing when other people do nice things for him, and generally feels really drained by other people. I can imagine that it is very hard for him to say please and thank you, etc, because it zaps all his energy. It's just one more thing he HAS TO DO to get along in our society. I'm sure these things are actually slightly painful for him.
I notice when people do nice/helpful things for me. But, yes - interacting _all the freaking time_ is draining. It's just really draining.

Quote:

I think that overall american culture really values extroverts. We often think that introverts are rude and self centered and "creepy". I can see how it would be very, very hard to force yourself to acknowledge other people if you feel overwhelmed and drained by them. For an extrovert that sounds totally crazy. How could anyone not enjoy other people's happiness?
I wouldn't have put it quite that way. I enjoy people being happy. But, I enjoy it on a passive level, and...quietly. I love to see and hear people enjoying themselves, but inserting myself into the interaction, even in a very trivial way (such as "thank you") is definitely another level. The interaction with it takes energy.

I've always found people, as a mass, really perplexing and incredibly frustrating. I like most people I meet, as individuals, just fine. But, when they start getting into groups, things change. (I also don't really like _people_, as a whole - I like them as individuals.) Social expectations, in general, both confuse me and drain me of energy.

(Hmm...it occurs to me that dd1 is even more introverted, self-conscious and perfectionistic than I am. That's probably a lot of why she has so much trouble..."messing up" and forgetting makes her feel awful and there are people around who _know_ she "screwed up".

Quote:

We extroverts spend a huge amount of our energy connecting with other people, whether they are strangers or spouses. It actually increases our own energy to sort of pour ourselves out to other people.
Oh...don't I know it. DS1 gets enthused about stuff and just...pours out all this...stuff. I can see him getting more and more and more charged up, and I feel as if he's sucking that energy directly out of me. But, I've watched him with friends and when he does that with a buddy, they _both_ charge up.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

oooooh mamas & dadas i dont have time to post much today. i havent even read any of the new postings yet.

so here is a fly by moment.

but i had to come and write here.

i have been searching the web and talking to other students in school about this very topic.

its fascinating how culture defines what sides to take.

and a student from myanmar thought we were making a mountain out of a molehill. for him it was very simple.

he said something like in myanmar we operate from a place that everyone is grateful for all that everyone does. so you dont ever have to say thank you or please. i asked him specifically and he said no - no one says ty to waiters, to salespeople to anyone really. doesnt mean ty is not said. it is used once in a while but not all the time. he said treating people kindly - being kind and not usign harsh language was being respectful.

no one he says expects any of those terms either. either ty, please or sorry. sorry is use more frequently if the event is big enough. its mostly said to a kid esp if one steps on their toes. a form of sorry. not typically the word sorry itself.

and he said when he came here he had to really learn. to do just the opposite. and he found society here operates on the idea that one is grateful only when they say it. it is not assumed that one is grateful. he said he was initially perceived as rude. he got dagger looks until someone explained things to him and he learnt the norms here.

unfortunately our conversation ended there as we had to go take a final.... but i found that fascinating.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy* 
OK I am talking more about when I'm having a real conversation with a client. I've never said "thank you for calling XYZ company" -- I just wouldn't say that.

I wasn't talking to clients. I was answering phones. (I actually didn't talk to clients, exactly, in that particular job. I worked for the manager of a packaged office building, and our "clients" were our tenants. I did work _for_ them...reception, tons of word processing, some accounting, a bit of very basic graphic design, etc...but I also worked in the same building _with_ them. It was probably a somewhat unusual work environment, because my customers were also sort of like my co-workers.)

Quote:

I might say, "Hi, how are you today, could you please hold for a minute, OK I'm back, thanks for holding, what can I do for you?" and then "OK I'll take care that right away, I'm sorry we didn't catch that sooner, thank you for being so patient" etc. things like that...
And, in the time _that_ took me, I'd have lost other calls (no - not always - it wasn't constantly that busy, but _sometimes_ it was).

Quote:

or when I used to work in a coffee shop, "Here's your coffee, thank you, have a great day!" Basically I treat clients & customers as human beings not people I have to deal with to get my job done... I can't imagine being too busy to say or listen to thank you... it takes literally a second or two & makes the whole experience a little more personal. I've been incredibly busy (trust me, I alone replaced a 6-person team) but I still never felt like Thank you was a waste of my limited time.
Have you ever had _seventeen_ (or twenty...or twenty-five) phone lines ringing at once? I've been far, far busier, in general, than I was at that job. But, I've rarely been in that kind of "every split second counts" position anywhere else. Waiting for the "thank you" meant missing one of my calls...and not answering the phone is _not_ something that people excuse in a receptionist.

Quote:

But you ARE assuming the worst when you assume that most people don't really MEAN thank you, please, etc.
Find the post where I said that "most people don't really mean" those things. If I said it, I'll edit, because something came out wrong.

Quote:

You are assuming that they don't truly care about you, you are assuming that they are self-absorbed, you're assuming that they are parrots who repeat the words they were taught to say with no feeling behind it. I don't see how you can say that's NOT assuming the worst?
I guess it would be, if I'd actually said that. I'm not assuming that they do mean it...but, that doesn't mean I'm assuming that they don't.

Quote:

I know from other threads you've both posted on that you definitely have a unique worldview, and maybe there are more cultural/geographical differences at play than what we're really seeing in this thread. I'll admit I'm very curious what your life is like, what the people you generally encounter are like, I kind of feel like you're from a whole 'nother planet so to speak, & I'm fascinated by you view on things!!








I feel compelled to say "thank you".








(Is that irony or something else?)
I've spent most of my life feeling like an alien, so that was actually a fairly...validating post. Thank you.


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## ThisCat (Jun 19, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy* 
I can't imagine being too busy to say or listen to thank you... it takes literally a second or two & makes the whole experience a little more personal.

I've often gotten the impression from most toll booth workers that they'd rather I didn't waste the millisecond it takes to say thank you. I usually get a "STHU and get out of here already because I have like a trillion more cars behind you to deal with and you're like the 80 billionth person to say that to me so it's just more noise" vibe from them. Sometimes I think it might be more polite of me to skip it. It might just be a north/south culture clash thing though.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I think you completely missed my point. I didn't think those people were jerks. But, there were times when I simply had too many lines ringing to have _time_ to listen to "thank you" (yes, I am aware that sounds insane, but it's true nonetheless), and cutting them off while they were still talking would have been rude, and unprofessional. I don't know where you got "assuming the worst" about people from the fact that I didn't have time to listen to it.

Because you yourself do not attach meaning to those words, and you said so. At least, not when you were working. Some people at least TRY to mean it.

Quote:

No, sometimes I don't. It's trained in. In the particular situation I was talking about, it was a job requirement. No - I wasn't really appreciative of receiving the same telemarketing call for the 10th time that morning. The things I said on the phone were _required_ by my job.
But sometimes they do, and who are we to assume the worst (that they don't care)?

Quote:

No. I can't. That's why I keep saying that _nobody_ means it and _every single person_ only means it as a habit, and that people who those words are heartless jerks. Oh, wait - no, I don't. I haven't said that at all. Of cours some people mean it. But, not everybody means anything by it. They're words. They don't mean anything to _me_, personally...somewhat more when I'm saying them (usually) than when I'm on the receiving end, but still not much.
You'd rather assume the worst about many and be wrong about some, than assume the best about many and be wrong about some. I get that. I'd rather be wrong about the rarer jerks in life.

Quote:

And, you're actually making my point. If I say words that I've been taught to say, and don't mean them in a heartfelt and sincere way every time, then I'm not as "thoughtful, caring and nice" as other people? Seriously?
Actually, you said that you did not mean those words--you didn't say always or never, and neither did I--and I am saying that other people DO mean those things. Which presumably would be much thoughtful, caring, and nice. So yeah. Seriously. Basically you are generalizing your experience with manners to everyone else. You didn't mean it, so neither did they.

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Some of the nicest, most caring and thoughtful people I've ever known have had "bad manners", and some of the _lease_ caring, thoughtful and nice people I've ever known have had exquisite manners. The two are separate concepts.
Yes, but there are areas in between manners and morality, such as when you speak to people in a respectful way. It is just not nice to not speak to people in a nice way. It's not thoughtful.

Quote:

For what it's worth, I'm well aware that many people are nicer, more thoughtful and more caring than I am. And, some of those people don't say "please" and "thank you".
Why not?!? Just to make a point?

Quote:

I disagree with your counterpoint. I'm sure there are people who have "internalized the love" such that every single "please" and "thank you" is genuine (although I don't see that as saying those words automatically - that's automatically feeling apprecation - which I'll admit sounds odd to me, but I think I know what you mean - and then using the appropriate words). I disagree that those are the "best people". This is actually the thing about "manners" that gets my goat. It's the assumption that people who use those words are the "best people". So arrogant.
It's not only manners. It's the kindness. You are begging the question, assuming that manners are meaningless, therefore, people who use them are saying meaningless things, and therefore, hypocrites. But most other people are operating on the assumption that they do mean something--something small, perhaps, but something.

Quote:

I've been accused throughout this thread of making assumptions about people who say these words, but people seem to be proud of making assumptions about people who don't. How does that work?
I think we are all making assumptions. But I'm happy to admit I assume the best in people. I'm willing to risk being wrong for the sake of the returns when I'm right.

Quote:

The words are meaningless, in and of themselves. If you say them with an underlying love, appreciation, etc, then they're not. What does that to do with training children to say "please" and "thank you"?
No, they're not meaningless. Saying them has meaning. You don't have to have a particularly deep feeling at the moment you say them to imbue them with meaning.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:

I think we are all making assumptions. But I'm happy to admit I assume the best in people. I'm willing to risk being wrong for the sake of the returns when I'm right.

Quote:

Why not?!? Just to make a point?
Is this an example of "assuming the best in people"? They don't say "please" and "thank you", so it must be "just to make a point"?

No - the people I'm thinking of simply weren't raised with "please" and "thank you", so they don't think to say them. They don't have the habit.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Because you yourself do not attach meaning to those words, and you said so. At least, not when you were working. Some people at least TRY to mean it.

Try to mean it? What does that even mean?

Quote:

But sometimes they do, and who are we to assume the worst (that they don't care)?
This is one of the differences in the way we see this. I don't think that someone saying their rote set spiel at work is doing anything wrong, and I'm not "assuming the worst" of them by thinking they don't mean anything by it. I tend to think they don't mean anything, because I _know_ it's a common job requirement for front line workers, but I'm not assuming the worst. They're just doing their best to get through the day, just like the rest of us.

Quote:

You'd rather assume the worst about many and be wrong about some, than assume the best about many and be wrong about some. I get that. I'd rather be wrong about the rarer jerks in life.
hmm...but you said the "best" people say "please" and "thank you", so you're assuming the worst of people who don't say them. Actually, because you're assuming the absence of those words says something negative about the people who don't say them. I'm not assuming the presence or absence of those words says _anything_ - positive or negative - about the people who say them...hardly "assuming the worst".

Quote:

Actually, you said that you did not mean those words--you didn't say always or never, and neither did I--and I am saying that other people DO mean those things. Which presumably would be much thoughtful, caring, and nice.
This is another place we disagree. I don't think meaning "please" or "thank you" makes someone more thoughtful, caring or nice than either not meaning them or not saying them.

Quote:

So yeah. Seriously. Basically you are generalizing your experience with manners to everyone else. You didn't mean it, so neither did they.
Oh, seriously? That's not what I'm saying _at all_. If it were based just on my own feelings about those words, my views would be very different. I'm not generalizing in the sense that you mean, though. The words don't mean anything, in and of themselves. Mind you, most words don't, imo. It's what's going on underneath that means something.

Quote:

Yes, but there are areas in between manners and morality, such as when you speak to people in a respectful way. It is just not nice to not speak to people in a nice way. It's not thoughtful.
Agreed. We simply have different concepts of what constitutes not speaking to people in a nice way. And, I find the fact that you keep using "thoughtful" interesting. We're (or I am, at least) talking about teaching children to always say "please" and "thank you". That _can_ be taught in a thoughtful, mindful way, but there's nothing inherently thoughtful about an ingrained habit.

Quote:

It's not only manners. It's the kindness. You are begging the question, assuming that manners are meaningless, therefore, people who use them are saying meaningless things, and therefore, hypocrites. But most other people are operating on the assumption that they do mean something--something small, perhaps, but something.
Nope. I'm not assuming that people who use those words don't mean them or that those people are hypocrites. I don't even know where you got that.

Quote:

No, they're not meaningless. Saying them has meaning. You don't have to have a particularly deep feeling at the moment you say them to imbue them with meaning.
I disagree. I don't disagree that you don't have to have a "deep" feeling to imbue them with meaning. I do disagree that saying them automatically has meaning. Sometimes, it does. Sometimes, it doesn't.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
and a student from myanmar thought we were making a mountain out of a molehill. for him it was very simple.

he said something like in myanmar we operate from a place that everyone is grateful for all that everyone does. so you dont ever have to say thank you or please. i asked him specifically and he said no - no one says ty to waiters, to salespeople to anyone really. doesnt mean ty is not said. it is used once in a while but not all the time. he said treating people kindly - being kind and not usign harsh language was being respectful.

That's interesting.

I found this quote on another site: "We have thank you in Burmese....However, Burmese don't say thank you as frequent as Westerners. *We say thank you only when we really mean it*. So, if a Burmese don't say "Thank you" to you, don't be offended. But if he says thank you to you, it means he is really thanking you from his heart, and you should be proud of it."

So....if I visit someone in Myanmar and I do something nice for them (prepare a dinner, bring a long a gift from the USA, what have you), and I hear nothing of thanks, it's not so much because they have thanks in their heart which I am supposed to presume, but because they _mean_ no thanks, and there _is_ no thanks in their heart.

That seems rather insulting.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

My interpretation is that you're taking "really mean" it one way, but it was meant another. It seems like you're taking it to mean something like "we don't say 'thank you', because we don't appreciate it". I'm taking it to mean more like "we don't say 'thank you', unless it's a really, really, really big deal"...as in, they wouldn't say it for holding a door, or putting the bar up behind your stuff on the checkout counter, or bagging their groceries...but would say it for carrying those groceries to the car, when you notice that they're on crutches.


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## ThisCat (Jun 19, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
he said something like in myanmar we operate from a place that everyone is grateful for all that everyone does. so you dont ever have to say thank you or please. i asked him specifically and he said no - no one says ty to waiters, to salespeople to anyone really. doesnt mean ty is not said. it is used once in a while but not all the time. he said treating people kindly - being kind and not usign harsh language was being respectful.

I really like their attitude on this subject. It's like everyone assumes the best about everyone else and no one has to say please or thank you just to prove they're not a jerk.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Is this an example of "assuming the best in people"? They don't say "please" and "thank you", so it must be "just to make a point"?

No - the people I'm thinking of simply weren't raised with "please" and "thank you", so they don't think to say them. They don't have the habit.

No, it was a question.

Quote:

Try to mean it? What does that even mean?
Think of what the words mean, why people use them, and consider whether the person to whom you are speaking deserves that respect.

Quote:

This is one of the differences in the way we see this. I don't think that someone saying their rote set spiel at work is doing anything wrong, and I'm not "assuming the worst" of them by thinking they don't mean anything by it. I tend to think they don't mean anything, because I _know_ it's a common job requirement for front line workers, but I'm not assuming the worst. They're just doing their best to get through the day, just like the rest of us.
You're right, assuming the "worst" as I wrote (I'm not going to re-read the thread, but I think I wrote that) was too strong. Certainly you're assuming they don't mean it and that they are misusing those words and really are not thankful to have their jobs, etc.

Quote:

hmm...but you said the "best" people say "please" and "thank you", so you're assuming the worst of people who don't say them. Actually, because you're assuming the absence of those words says something negative about the people who don't say them. I'm not assuming the presence or absence of those words says _anything_ - positive or negative - about the people who say them...hardly "assuming the worst".
Let me rephrase this "best" thing since I think you are taking it for something it's not meant to be.

Is not the most moral person the person who can do moral deeds without even thinking about them, so in the habit of being kind, thoughtful, and gentle? Or is that person merely a robot? But how can we avoid becoming such a person if we are to be genuinely good for such a long time?

It's not a question of labeling people who use common courtesy as "better" than others. It's a theoretical example used to illustrate what happens when we assume that only deliberated choices are moral or immoral, and that other actions are not.

Quote:

This is another place we disagree. I don't think meaning "please" or "thank you" makes someone more thoughtful, caring or nice than either not meaning them or not saying them.
Why is it not nicer to think, "I appreciate that person--I recognize she took time out for me, and I'm going to say it to her, so she knows it and feels better." or at least, to have a sort of general, abbreviated feeling of that sentiment and to verbalize it, than to just think, "Meh, open door, lucky me, whoop-die-doo."

Quote:

The words don't mean anything, in and of themselves. Mind you, most words don't, imo. It's what's going on underneath that means something.
I think you're trying to say that words have no meaning without a specific concept attached to them and that that concept must be held in the mind at the time of the utterance for the word to have any meaning. Otherwise, they are utterances like "boop!" or "gleck..." or whatever.

However, I think that (a) that is not how human cognition works, and (b) this is evidenced by many conversations in which people are able to communicate without thinking very deeply or even somewhat deeply about what they are saying.

Quote:

here's nothing inherently thoughtful about an ingrained habit.
There is something thoughtful indeed about INGRAINING that habit.

Quote:

Nope. I'm not assuming that people who use those words don't mean them or that those people are hypocrites. I don't even know where you got that.
Well if you're not assuming that they don't mean them, then why... are you suggesting that the words are meaningless due to lack of meaning or intention behind them?

Quote:

I disagree. I don't disagree that you don't have to have a "deep" feeling to imbue them with meaning. I do disagree that saying them automatically has meaning. Sometimes, it does. Sometimes, it doesn't.
So why not assume the best?


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I have no idea. I've never seen anything like it before. She just has a lot of trouble with that kind of thing. She's finally getting to where it's not quite so bad, but it's been a long, hard road.

Do you think it's possible that your daughter's troubles have anything to do with your own negative-to-indifferent associations with saying and hearing "please" and "thank you"? Could you have communicated the fact to her that you don't believe these phrases mean much - that they are simply ingrained habits in most of us (if I'm understanding you correctly), and this set her up to be conflicted in situations where she's expected to use them?


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThisCat* 
I really like their attitude on this subject. It's like everyone assumes the best about everyone else and no one has to say please or thank you just to prove they're not a jerk.

Yes, but the student also said:

"and he said when he came here he had to really learn. to do just the opposite. and he found society here operates on the idea that one is grateful only when they say it. it is not assumed that one is grateful. he said he was initially perceived as rude. he got dagger looks until someone explained things to him and he learnt the norms here."

My kids live in the US, so I teach them the social norms of the US so that they will not be perceived as rude.


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

*deleted*


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama* 
Do you think it's possible that your daughter's troubles have anything to do with your own negative-to-indifferent associations with saying and hearing "please" and "thank you"? Could you have communicated the fact to her that you don't believe these phrases mean much - that they are simply ingrained habits in most of us (if I'm understanding you correctly), and this set her up to be conflicted in situations where she's expected to use them?

No. I don't. My feelings about this were nowhere near this strong until I spent a couple of years watching her go through hell trying to meet social expectations that she doesn't understand and that make her horribly uncomfortable, and started thinking, "why the hell are we putting her through this, anyway?" This is a personality/temperament issue, and it's really, really difficult for her. (Many things are very difficult for dd1. She doesn't have any easy temperament in any way - not easy for herself, and not easy for the people around here. She's a delight, and has the most fascinating mind I've run into in a long time...but she doesn't have an easy time of things.)


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Yes, but the student also said:

"and he said when he came here he had to really learn. to do just the opposite. and he found society here operates on the idea that one is grateful only when they say it. it is not assumed that one is grateful. he said he was initially perceived as rude. he got dagger looks until someone explained things to him and he learnt the norms here."

My kids live in the US, so I teach them the social norms of the US so that they will not be perceived as rude.

Right, so I have no idea why the mannerism of other parts of the world is even relevant. Interesting - sure, but that doesn't change my view. I'm sure my kids, if they chose to live in or visit other countries, could adapt quickly. I'm assuming them saying too many thank you's wouldn't offend anyone in another culture. Whereas, there is a high probability of them appearing to be rude if they were to not say these polite terms in our country.


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## ThisCat (Jun 19, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
My kids live in the US, so I teach them the social norms of the US so that they will not be perceived as rude.

I never said anyone should do otherwise.







One can appreciate another culture without thinking that it can translate to their own.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Think of what the words mean, why people use them, and consider whether the person to whom you are speaking deserves that respect.

I'm still not following you. What the words _mean_ (according to their definitions) is somthing along the lines of "we really appreciate you calling us today" or "I'm asking if you'd mind if I put you hold". We - the company - frequently didn't appreciate the call, and I was going to put them on hold, whether they minded it or not (as I wouldn't be saying "hold" in any context if I didn't _have_ to put them on hold). It was a set spiel, and "trying to mean it" wouldn't have changed anything.

Quote:

You're right, assuming the "worst" as I wrote (I'm not going to re-read the thread, but I think I wrote that) was too strong. Certainly you're assuming they don't mean it and that they are misusing those words and really are not thankful to have their jobs, etc.
Wrong. I'm not assuming anything - that they mean it or that they don't. I know very well that there are people out there who mean it and people who don't, and I have no idea which are which. (Okay - that's not accurate. Sometimes, I have a pretty good idea, but it's not based on "oh, she's a receptionist, so she must not mean it" or anything like that.)

Quote:

Let me rephrase this "best" thing since I think you are taking it for something it's not meant to be.

Is not the most moral person the person who can do moral deeds without even thinking about them, so in the habit of being kind, thoughtful, and gentle? Or is that person merely a robot? But how can we avoid becoming such a person if we are to be genuinely good for such a long time?

It's not a question of labeling people who use common courtesy as "better" than others. It's a theoretical example used to illustrate what happens when we assume that only deliberated choices are moral or immoral, and that other actions are not.
I've never thought about it in this particular way, because I'm not even slightly concerned with who the 'most moral" person is. If someone jumps into a lake after a drowning toddler (as I remember from upthread, but don't remember who mentioned it), I really don't care if they just did it without thinking or if they thought about it first. They tried (and hopefully succeeded) to save a child's life. That's what counts.

However, I don't consider this whole issue of "please" and "thank you" to even fall under that umbrella, because I don't attach any moral value to those words being said or not said. I simply don't. It's not because I don't mean them (as I frequently _do_ mean them). It's because they're _words_. They reflect a societal expectation (and I freely admit that societal expecations are an area where I'm seriously challenged), not a core value

Quote:

In response to this: _This is another place we disagree. I don't think meaning "please" or "thank you" makes someone more thoughtful, caring or nice than either not meaning them or not saying them._, you said:
Why is it not nicer to think, "I appreciate that person--I recognize she took time out for me, and I'm going to say it to her, so she knows it and feels better." or at least, to have a sort of general, abbreviated feeling of that sentiment and to verbalize it, than to just think, "Meh, open door, lucky me, whoop-die-doo."
My comment wasn't a matter of whether it's nicer to think "I appreciate this person, etc.". It's partly a matter of whether one instance of being nicer means the person is nicer. However, I've certainly said "thank you", because it's an expected social courtesy, in situations where I didn't appreciate the person's action at all. (And, just to be clear, as this has been misinterpreted multiple times in this thread, that does _not_ mean I assume that every freaking person who says "thank you" is being non-authentic.) I wasn't being "nice" - in some situations, I was kind of annoyed. So, that doesn't make me a nice person in any way. If someone makes eye contact with the...door holder, for instance...and smiles, but doesn't say "thank you", that doesn't mean they're thinking "Meh, open door, lucky me, whoop-die-doo", either.

Quote:

I think you're trying to say that words have no meaning without a specific concept attached to them and that that concept must be held in the mind at the time of the utterance for the word to have any meaning. Otherwise, they are utterances like "boop!" or "gleck..." or whatever.

However, I think that (a) that is not how human cognition works, and (b) this is evidenced by many conversations in which people are able to communicate without thinking very deeply or even somewhat deeply about what they are saying.
I can't argue what you're saying on some levels. Obviously, "thank you" doesn't mean the same thing as "boop". But, there's a difference between dictionary type meaning and underlying meaning. I'm talking about the underlying meanings. There isn't a universal underlying meaning for "thank you"...it's dependent on the person saying it.

Quote:

There is something thoughtful indeed about INGRAINING that habit.
In that case, all the people who grew up saying this stuff have/had thoughtful parents. That's awesome...but it doesn't say anything about the characer or motivations of the people saying it. It says something about their parents.

Quote:

Well if you're not assuming that they don't mean them, then why... are you suggesting that the words are meaningless due to lack of meaning or intention behind them?
IMO, the _words_ are meaningless, _because_ of their status as a social convention. Some people mean them when they say them, and then they have meaning. I'm not assuming anything one way or the other.

Quote:

So why not assume the best?
hmmm...partly because, by and large, people who assume that saying "please" and "thank you" says something about the speaker's character annoy the heck out of me (irl - a specific conversation about this online is a very different context). Maybe it's supposed to come from a place of appreciating veryone, cultivating gratitude, etc, etc. but that's not how I see it play out in real life. If I assume the best of the people who say it, it's a very short jump to assuming the worst of the people who don't. I have no desire to go there at all.


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## ThisCat (Jun 19, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
Right, so I have no idea why the mannerism of other parts of the world is even relevant.

That part of the discussion has definitely got me thinking about some of the reasons my husband and I don't really expect those words from our children. Given that's what the discussion was originally about, it seems relevant to me. Anyway, it's not something I've ever consciously thought about, but we never really expect those sorts of formalities here probably because we assume a lot and are open to other forms of expression. We all say "please," "thank you," and "sorry" at times, but it's not expected.

That said, how we do things in this house isn't always appropriate when we're out in the world. So I will continue to model and encourage socially acceptable behavior when we're out. My daughter seems to have caught on pretty well already. Today, for instance, when a cashier asked her if she wanted a sticker she said "yes please" and followed up with a nice "thank you" when she received it. But that's not necessarily how it would have gone down at home. It's just like how she understands that we wear real clothes when we're out in public rather than just underwear or pajamas like we do at home.


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