# full dilation = time to push?



## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Even here at MDC where people tend to be a little more educated about the physiological process, I hear this a lot. I thought it myself back when I had my first, but I didn't think why that might be, it was just because "that's the way it is". In other words, what I had been told. And then I thought something was wrong with me because I didn't feel the urge to push throughout that whole managed second stage -- not once. It was supposedly "normal", though, in that it took two hours to push my baby out.

To me, this seems on a par with the myth that episiotomies prevent tears. I can't believe that in this supposedly scientific age, people still believe this. It's just very frustrating because of how much harm it has the potential to cause. My voluntary (guided) second stage was awful. Okay, compared to lying on my back trying to not yell out (another great myth about what birth is supposed to be like) during excruciating contractions, it was a little better, at least I got to do something with that energy (since I wasn't allowed to move around and bellow) and know we were progressing toward something. But it was horrendously hard on my body and in itself caused injury, and it was hard on my psyche too as I was led to believe that I wasn't doing it "right" and if I only focused more or were a stronger person, it would go faster and be easier on me.

I'm still angry thinking about it (this was ten years ago) because _it wasn't true._ In reality, my body simpy wasn't ready. (Nor was I in a position conducive to helping it get ready.) I could have spared myself that whole two hours of ridiculous effort and indignity and hurt to my body if I'd just moved around and bellowed like I felt like instead of trying to force the baby out at some artificially chosen time (and risking distress to him in the process.)

"Full dilation" does not mean the body is ready for the baby to emerge. It means that one little part of it is ready. It doesn't mean that everything else is ready. When all _is_ ready, the body will make it happen; there will be no mistaking or avoiding it. And it will be comparatively quicker easier and safer than if voluntary pushing had started earlier. So why are women still routinely told to push before then?


----------



## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

Yep.


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Good question.

I also thought you couldn't push until 10 cms. I was only 9 cms and had to push so bad, and was trying to hold it in, but my mw told me to just go with what my body was doing, and my baby was born in less than 5 minutes.


----------



## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

I never felt the urge to push. I was told when to push, and it was awful. I was at 10 cms and all that, and I even asserted myself enough to take a few minutes to see if the urge to push would come, but it never did.


----------



## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Probably for the same reason when you are ready to push, they start yelling at you to wait and don't push. Failure to respect a woman's intuition.


----------



## twilight girl (Mar 7, 2002)

When I birthed DD, after 72 hours or so of dilating ... I finally reached my 10 cm, and the midwife told me to take a nap and get refreshed, because DD hadn´t dropped down yet, so pushing would be futile at that point.

She let me sleep for 1/2 hour or an hour, and when I woke up she had me get up and do some squatting to help push DD down. I pushed 3 times for a total of 15 minutes and she was born.

Gotta love a midwife who knows what she´s doing!


----------



## Shonahsmom (Mar 23, 2004)

This is something I've never fully reconciled about my dd's birth.. but kind of on the opposite spectrum. Overall, it was a wonderful birth and I totally did my own thing. But my labor was fast and intense and my dd descended so rapidly and I had the most intense pushing urge from about 6 cm on and was encouraged by my mw to not to push, to blow through the ctx. I feel like I've heard a million times that women shouldn't push before full dialation and doing so can result in cervical swelling and swollen cervical lips that can prevent the baby's passge. I guess I've always felt a level of confusion about why my body wanted/needed to push so badly before all of my body was technically "ready".







:


----------



## crunchy_mama (Oct 11, 2004)

I wish someone around me had really focused on this the first time around. I was so tired and ready to be done that I wanted to push as soon as possible. Unfortunately I pushed and pushed and pushed without the urge for quite a while, I wish I had tried to at least rest. Unfortunately this meant by the time I actually pushed him out I was semi-reclining, I had already pushed while squatting and hands and knees for a couple of hours and just didn't have the energy anymore. I ended up with a small tear, I thank that could have been avoided.


----------



## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shonahsmom* 
I guess I've always felt a level of confusion about why my body wanted/needed to push so badly before all of my body was technically "ready".







:

I always feel pushy around that point. I think it a psychological thing for me. I want to push through the intensity. I know I can't go back, so I want to get it done. When I do push at that point, it does not feel right (and I have had swelling and lips and all that stuff). I figured out with my second that that pushy feeling is a sign to go deeper (for me into hypnosis). The real urge to push was different - came on softly, I gave a little push and felt the baby move and then things picked up.


----------



## Shelsi (Apr 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shonahsmom* 
This is something I've never fully reconciled about my dd's birth.. but kind of on the opposite spectrum. Overall, it was a wonderful birth and I totally did my own thing. But my labor was fast and intense and my dd descended so rapidly and I had the most intense pushing urge from about 6 cm on and was encouraged by my mw to not to push, to blow through the ctx. I feel like I've heard a million times that women shouldn't push before full dialation and doing so can result in cervical swelling and swollen cervical lips that can prevent the baby's passge. I guess I've always felt a level of confusion about why my body wanted/needed to push so badly before all of my body was technically "ready".







:

A friend of mine had this happen to her from about 5 cm on and because of it she just could not dialate past that. Turns out she was tearing her cervix! OUCH! I don't know if it's psychological or what. She ended up getting an epidural (she's VERY into NCB so that was a huge leap for her) and she still says to this day that it was the only way she ever would have had her VBAC, she just couldn't stop herself. Like the pp said though it didn't feel good to her to be pushing but at the same time it wasn't something she could stop.

I had a very managed medical birth and I remember feeling pushy around 8-9 cm. I have a feeling I would have been just fine pushing then and I did a little bit because it just felt so freaking good.


----------



## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds* 
I'm still angry thinking about it (this was ten years ago) because _it wasn't true._ In reality, my body simpy wasn't ready. (Nor was I in a position conducive to helping it get ready.) I could have spared myself that whole two hours of ridiculous effort and indignity and hurt to my body if I'd just moved around and bellowed like I felt like instead of trying to force the baby out at some artificially chosen time (and risking distress to him in the process.)

"Full dilation" does not mean the body is ready for the baby to emerge. It means that one little part of it is ready. It doesn't mean that everything else is ready. *When all is ready, the body will make it happen; there will be no mistaking or avoiding it.* And it will be comparatively quicker easier and safer than if voluntary pushing had started earlier. So why are women still routinely told to push before then?

(bolding mine)

I both agree and disagree. I think that almost all the time, you're absolutely spot-on right. However, birth is also the great humbler. Birth reminds us that every birth is different, every woman is different, and you just can't say *anything* will happen in a certain way during birth.

You've probably read my story or heard me talk about this before, so I'll make it really short, but bottom line, even after over 7 hours of pushing contractions that I breathed and bellowed through uninhibited and alone (except for dh, who spent part of the time asleep), even after that "lip" of cervix was pushed aside, even after all that, I still had no pushing urge. I was too tired to wait through another 8 hours of that excruciating pain for the moment that my body finally decided it was ready to give me an urge to push. So I pushed with the contractions despite having no urge to push. My baby was born 25 min later, and it would have been over an intact perineum if the doctor hadn't given me bad advice when birthing her shoulders (head was done slowly, carefully, controlled by me, and gently with no tearing).

I agree that full dilation does not necessarily mean it's time to push. And I think it makes a lot of sense to wait a while for an urge to push - definitely take a nap if possible. But I just don't think it's necessarily true that your body will definitely have an unmistakable urge to push, or the fetal ejection reflex, or push the baby out on its own if you don't do it yourself. Sometimes, it just doesn't happen that way.

Julia
dd 1 year old


----------



## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

If you never get the urge to push, it doesn't mean you need people telling you to push. If you "never" get the urge (I'm guessing they didn't give you long to wait, betsy; you might have gotten an urge at some point), you wait and your uterus pushes the baby out. There's usually no need for directed pushing.


----------



## gini1313 (Jul 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds* 
So why are women still routinely told to push before then?


I delivered in a hospital with an OB. She never once told me to push, or directed my pushing (until I got out of control with the pain, then she helped me focus by directing me until I was able to follow my body again). I was fully dilated for over an hour before I got an urge to push. She sat and did paperwork until I got the urge...

Off topic, but, that is one of the reasons why I hate it when people knock the whole medical field. There are good docs out there and we just have to find them!!!


----------



## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
If you never get the urge to push, it doesn't mean you need people telling you to push. *If you "never" get the urge* (I'm guessing they didn't give you long to wait, betsy; you might have gotten an urge at some point), *you wait and your uterus pushes the baby out.* There's usually no need for directed pushing.

(bolding mine)

. . . . Not always true. Not true for me. I waited. And waited. And waited. And waited. My body did not expel my baby without a LOT of physical effort from me. Once I started pushing, the baby was born within 25 minutes.

It was this kind of attitude (that it WILL happen, no matter what) that led me to not even try a little push at any time during those extremely painful 8 hours - because I was waiting, waiting, waiting for that pushing urge. I knew that when my body was ready, I would have the urge to push and I could deliver my baby. Except that it didn't happen.

I still have to ask the doctor if he actually did push a cervical lip out of the way . . . if that was inhibiting my pushing urge, however, I should have had an urge after it was out of the way. Or my body should have pushed the baby out spontaneously at that point. But neither of those things happened.

That doesn't mean I needed someone to tell me when to push (i.e., look, a contraction, PUSH!), but I needed to know that *now was the time to start pushing* (as opposed to the prior 8 hours, where I just suffered and waited for the urge, all the while breathing, relaxing, moaning, etc.).

Julia
dd 1 year old


----------



## kirk_heidi (Apr 26, 2006)

I was told not to push with my 8 year old and my 3 year old because the doctor wasn't there. I was like...unmmm...I can't stop it, my body was doing it on it's own and I couldnt' stop. I agree that when the body is ready it will happen!


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

Off topic, but, that is one of the reasons why I hate it when people knock the whole medical field.
I can understand your frustration, but no one is knocking an entire field of medicine on this thread







It's wonderful to hear that there are physicians out there who attend lovingly and non-interventively to the women who have hired them. Sadly, this is not the norm.

Quote:

There are good docs out there and we just have to find them!!!
I think it's important to remember that many women around the world believe that normal birth does not _require_ a doctor or 'medical' assistance and/or intervention. (Modern medicine is, of course, a blessing when necessary).

I really like this explanation of birthing paradigms by Robbie Davis-Floyd


----------



## KiwiZ (Apr 4, 2004)

Very interesting thread! I remember during my VBAC, the nurse checked and said "10 cm! Time to start pushing!" so I thought OK, just figured that was it. Shortly into pushing, I got the "urge" to push and told my doc/nurses whenever I felt it (I think I just yelled "NOW"







cuz I was concentrating so much). We worked as a team, my nurses were so great helping me change position and push and helped me take advantage of my urges there.


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gini1313* 

Off topic, but, that is one of the reasons why I hate it when people knock the whole medical field. There are good docs out there and we just have to find them!!!

Well some people don't access to good caregivers, whether through insurance or geography. Plus, how many doctors have told women all the right thinsg, only to morph into something else entirely at the birth.


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

full dilation = time to push?
This concept is just one more reason I totally believe that internal 'exams' are unecessary and in many cases, detrimental/disheartening/disempowering to pregnant and birthing women.


----------



## gini1313 (Jul 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia* 
I can understand your frustration, but no one is knocking an entire field of medicine on this thread







It's wonderful to hear that there are physicians out there who attend lovingly and non-interventively to the women who have hired them. Sadly, this is not the norm.

I know no one was in this thread, thus why I said off topic. Just I hear that alot, and I know there are good docs out there and they definitely have their place


----------



## Jenlaana (Oct 28, 2005)

A woman in a coma can give birth vaginally. The body will push the baby out with or without active pushing. It may take "too long" considering the amount of pain many women are in during that stage of labor, or the amount of time spent in that stage, but it would happen eventually.

That being said, I don't knock anyone's experiences. If pushing before the urge hits you has worked for you, then I think thats great.

For me, I tried very hard not to push at all, but had a short point where the baby was so far down that my hips were being forced apart, and it felt very very uncomfortable (scary to be honest, since I Had not felt it before) and i pushed because I couldn't handle that wierdness for a moment longer than necessary. I was lucky, in that by the time I finally gave in, I really only had a few contractions and baby was out....it was definitely < 15 min. It was so fast that my DH was telling me "ok, take a deep breath, lets get ready for the next contraction" and I said "hold on, I have to catch the baby"







(she was born underwater, and I was on my knees leaning back...DH was just outside the tub face to face with me) I had no tearing, and very minimal skid marks even, and I attribute it to breathing through every contraction as long as was humanly possible.


----------



## timneh_mom (Jun 13, 2005)

I'll have to go back and read the thread later when I get more computer time... but with both my kiddos, I felt the urge to push, it was so overwhelming... BEFORE I got to 10 cm! I think if I'd been allowed to give tiny pushes like my body wanted to, I might have dilated faster, at least with my first... I often wonder why some of us get the urge (like a HUGE urge) before we are 10 cm? There has to be a biological reason for it...

But yeah, I agree, if a mom doesn't feel ready to push the baby out, why not wait as long as everyone is stable?

Oops, OK, just read about how one mama here waited hours for the urge!! I have to agree that our bodies all work differently... I really believe that - not just in birthing, but in all other aspects!


----------



## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

I remember having a bit of a break after transition. DD's head was just kinda hanging there, at the cervix, ready to get moving down and out. (DH felt it while I was on a birthing chair and looked to surprised that there was a fuzzy head there-duh!)

It took a little while for the urge to push to kick in so I just relaxed. At some point my midwife asked if I wanted to try doing a hula like gyration to see if it would trigger the urge. I did about 2 circles and next thing I know I was in the biggest squat ever with my body pushing away (no conscious effort at all!).

After that the urge to push came and went, sometimes a little push, sometimes this massive, intense sensation (that felt incredible good).

I can't imagine having someone stand over me, telling when to push, how to push and when to stop. Yuck!


----------



## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twilight girl* 
I feel like I've heard a million times that women shouldn't push before full dialation and doing so can result in cervical swelling and swollen cervical lips that can prevent the baby's passge. I guess I've always felt a level of confusion about why my body wanted/needed to push so badly before all of my body was technically "ready".

Another myth. Obviously if you're trying to push the baby out before the body is ready, it can cause problems (exactly the point of the OP.) It's actually very common for women to start doing little grunting pushing before full dilation, and bearing down as your body directs you to (only as much as relieves the urge, no more and no less,) will only help position the baby and dilate the cervix.

I felt bearing down urges for _three weeks_ before the birth. It felt wonderful to give in to that, absolutely wonderful. And it didn't create problems at all -- in fact once it was actually time for the baby to be born it only took four contractions for her to traverse the birth canal.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Romana9+2*
You've probably read my story or heard me talk about this before, so I'll make it really short, but bottom line, even after over 7 hours of pushing contractions that I breathed and bellowed through uninhibited and alone (except for dh, who spent part of the time asleep), even after that "lip" of cervix was pushed aside, even after all that, I still had no pushing urge. I was too tired to wait through another 8 hours of that excruciating pain for the moment that my body finally decided it was ready to give me an urge to push.

If you had no urge to push, what do you mean by "pushing contractions"?

Quote:

I agree that full dilation does not necessarily mean it's time to push. And I think it makes a lot of sense to wait a while for an urge to push - definitely take a nap if possible. But I just don't think it's necessarily true that your body will definitely have an unmistakable urge to push, or the fetal ejection reflex, or push the baby out on its own if you don't do it yourself. Sometimes, it just doesn't happen that way.
How do you know? By your own admission, you didn't wait to see. What if you had started pushing much earlier? Maybe you would have just pushed that whole time with no progress, wearing yourself out and hurting yourself. Maybe that 25 minutes of pushing that you did do just happened to coincide with a relatively high degree of readiness on the part of your body, even though it was not yet fully ready to spontaneously move the baby down. I was able to push my baby out (in two hours of pushing) without a pushing urge, too; that is certainly a choice, but it doesn't mean that I had to. But please understand, I'm not saying that the choice you made is not valid. I don't know enough about what your body was doing to be able to make a judgment about it, and I didn't say that there is never any reason to try to get the baby out as soon as the cervix is fully dilated. I am _only_ saying that the assumption that the mother must push at full dilation even without an urge is wrong, is contrary to the natural unfolding of labor, and usually makes for a longer, harder pushing stage than she would have otherwise.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jenlaana*
The body will push the baby out with or without active pushing. It may take "too long" considering the amount of pain many women are in during that stage of labor, or the amount of time spent in that stage, but it would happen eventually.
That being said, I don't knock anyone's experiences. If pushing before the urge hits you has worked for you, then I think thats great.

Aw heck, if I'd just read through the thread first, I could've just said, "yeah, that!"







You said basically the same thing I was trying to get across, only much more succinctly.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Georgia*
I think it's important to remember that many women around the world believe that normal birth does not require a doctor or 'medical' assistance and/or intervention.

Okay, now I get my chance. Yeah, that!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbbieB*
I remember having a bit of a break after transition.

Yes, also very common and normal. I had a break of about an hour after the baby dropped. The "rest and be thankful" stage Sheila Kitzinger talks about.


----------



## Full Heart (Apr 27, 2004)

The "urge to push" and uncontrollable pushing are 2 different things. I've had pushing contractions and uncontrollable pushing or fetal ejection. While both are competly natural and normal they are different. And its a completly different thing altogether from forced pushing. Uncontrollable pushing or fetal ejection your body just wraps itself around the uterus and pushes the baby out. Kinda like vomiting lol. Pushing contractions or the urge to push is like needing to go potty. You feel the need to push. They are different. If you wait through those pushing contractions and never push you might get the fetal ejection reflex. You might not.


----------



## 2Sweeties1Angel (Jan 30, 2006)

With my VBA2C, I never really had an urge to push. I was fully dilated for well over an hour, closer to two hours, and didn't have the urge. I don't know if it was because my epidural was blocking the urge (even though I had it turned down) or what. I ended up deciding to just try pushing, so I called my doctor and the nurses in and started pushing. DD2 was born within half an hour, maybe less. She did have a nuchal hand--maybe that effected the urge? I don't know. They kept telling me I'd "just know" when I needed to push and it didn't happen for me. I was a little afraid of rupturing during pushing so maybe I had a mental block on the whole thing.


----------



## pamamidwife (May 7, 2003)

maternal efforts in pushing make up about 30% of the descent of baby. BUT, another poster was right when they said your uterus could do the job itself...it just takes a bit more time.

nobody HAS to push - for most women, the "urge to push" isn't an urge at all - their body just does it. it's like saying you have an "urge to vomit". you know? (and I just noticed that FullHeart said nearly the same thing - but not quite!)

in quite a few cultures women bear down with EVERY contraction all through labor. they do NOT swell their cervixes closed.

a swollen cervix and a very early strong bearing down urge has more to do with a head that is malpresented (asynclitic or posterior, or both) than pushing too early.

what I'm amazed with is the number of women with epidurals that are told to start pushing as soon as cervix is gone. wouldn't it make more sense to labor the baby down to where it's starting to emerge under the pubic bone?


----------



## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Amen Linda.


----------



## lizabird (Jan 19, 2004)

I feel very fortunate to have had 2 births at an awesome freestanding birth center. The midwives there pretty much just let me do what nature was telling me to do.

First baby I started pushing right about 10 cm, totally involuntarily. 2nd baby, I was fully dilated for probably 30 minutes before I started pushing. Midwives both times were just going with the flow and it was great.
My wonderful dh said "Push!" once during my 2nd birth and I practically screamed back at him "DOn't tell me to push!"









I hear so many bizarre stories of hospital birth experiences.


----------



## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

Thank you for posting this. With my second child born this October, I felt very well educated about birth and already had one homebirth under my belt. I also knew that sometimes a woman's body goes into a resting period between being complete and needeing to push.

I just didn't know it could be for eight hours. During her sister's birth I'd been 2 cm for over 28 hours and dilated completely and pushed the baby out (2 pushes) within an additional hour, so I was very unprepared for what happened almost four years later. I was complete when my midwife arrived at my house at midnight. It was about 29 hours into labor. Everything had been long but much easier. However, and I am kind of resentful of both myself and my midwife the way things turned out- though there were other circumstances happening in the background that made us both want to hurry up including two other clients in labor who lived pretty far away.

She held back a lip andI tried pushing in every position, birth stool, tub, squatting, semireclined, knees to chest (my mother's wondedrful suggestion "How about just pushing normally"), side-lying, squatting holding onto the couch...

I never felt the urge. I remember saying, "With Dylan it was so strong, I couldn't have stopped had I tried." Shye actually told me that it was more difficult with some babies and to keep trying. Of course I exhausted myself trying when I shouldn't have been. She was eventually born 30 minutes after arrriving at the local hospital ( almost eight hours after having been proclaimed "complete") in two pushes again.

I know I get a strong urge to push, and I know that next time I will wait patiently for it.


----------



## Nan'sMom (May 23, 2005)

I have always thought this is a silly myth that midwives didn't believe, but a team of two homebirth midwives nearby that I interviewed asked me in all seriousness if I didn't allow VE's how I would know when to push (??!!). As if the baby might never come out if I didn't know I was at 10 cm. It is very strange to me. I wonder how they think babies get born without "expert help".

Sorry about your bad experience. I still feel trauma from my first birth too--and my mw didn't do VEs or any of that silliness, but the process was still intrusive and scary for me.


----------



## Blueena (Apr 3, 2007)

With my son I got to 10 and my wonderful OB said that he was too high so to take a nap and she would come back later and when she came back an hour later, he had come down A LOT thru the birth canal and she was glad because she said the body can do it all on its own. On the flip side with my dd I was 9 1/2 but felt pressure so when the nurse said "lets do a practice push", her head almost came out, so it all depends on what our body is doing.


----------



## Livviesmom0207 (Mar 21, 2007)

Yeah my body DEFINITELY let me know when it was time, and it was at about 7cm. I didn't push before 9.5 cm though because everyone told me not to (wish I'd known better).

When your body is trying to push, it's HARD not to. I ended up pushing an hour and 13 minutes, but DD was stuck under my pelvic bone and was oxyposterior...they kept telling me I was going to need a c section because a first time mom "couldn't" get a stuck OP baby out, but I did it.


----------



## Snork (Feb 17, 2007)

I dont have vaginal exams so no one but me knows when I am fully dilated. I start pushing when the overwhelming urge takes over and I cant prevent it anymore.

I try to encourage my clients to do the same.


----------



## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shonahsmom* 
This is something I've never fully reconciled about my dd's birth.. but kind of on the opposite spectrum. Overall, it was a wonderful birth and I totally did my own thing. But my labor was fast and intense and my dd descended so rapidly and I had the most intense pushing urge from about 6 cm on and was encouraged by my mw to not to push, to blow through the ctx. I feel like I've heard a million times that women shouldn't push before full dialation and doing so can result in cervical swelling and swollen cervical lips that can prevent the baby's passge. I guess I've always felt a level of confusion about why my body wanted/needed to push so badly before all of my body was technically "ready".







:

http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/pushing.asp
Shaping the head.


----------



## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Can't some presentations distort the pushing urge? Either make it not happen or happen too soon?


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gini1313* 
I know no one was in this thread, thus why I said off topic.

My apologies


----------



## HeatherB (Jan 30, 2003)

Some of the PPs remarked about the different feeling in pushing when totally "ready" versus not. I had the "urge" while still having a cervical lip. It did NOT feel good to push at that point!! It seemed uncontrollable but I actually did manage to breathe through I don't know how many or for how long. I was in such a haze by then that I can only assume my MW finally managed to get the then-swelling cervical lip out of the way. When I did finally push again, it felt TOTALLY different! He was born very quickly - one or two ctxs? This was my first HBAC and I was just in shock that it finally ended, and so quickly! There really is (for me) just a totally different sensation, and I know I'll be paying a bit more attention to how the urges come this next time.


----------



## amygoforth (Jun 21, 2005)

Such an interesting thread!

As a new doula, I've recently witnessed both the urge to push and directed pushing.

For one of the births, the OB encouraged the mom to push against a cervical lip, hoping to help it melt away. This mom was unmedicated, used the squat bar, but had no urge at that point other than the excitement of the thought of finally getting to meet her baby. Several hours later she had a c-section. In hindsight, I suspect that the baby was had not rotated into a favorable position, which is why she 1) still had some cervix, and 2) she had no urge to push. The baby hadn't descended enough to contact the bundle of nerves (ferguson's plexus?) that triggers the fetal ejection reflex. I think that by pushing too soon, she actually forced the baby down into a funny position. _*Can this happen?*_

For my most recent birth, mom went from 4cm to baby in 45 minutes. I watched her work through 15 minutes of transition, then she fell asleep--ASLEEP!-- for 10 minutes. Talk about a "rest and be thankful" period! Then her eyes popped open and she was pushing. She couldn't resist it.


----------



## Blucactus (Nov 20, 2006)

Ok, everyone's post is interesting, so I just have to add my own experience. I spent 5 hours, yeah, 5 hours, at 7 cm with the urge to push. Breathing through most of it, though it would have felt good to push, oh man, it would have been the best feeling in the world... but towards the end it was not like, "oh, it might feel good to push", but with every contrax my body was taking over. It was like the intensity split in the middle, with the top half of me vomiting uncontrollably, and the bottom half bearing down. Try trying not to do one or the other or either for five hours essp twd the end of that time when I couldn't help it . Everyone was yelling, don't push, don't push. And I was like, I CAN"T HELP IT. *I"M* NOT DOING IT!
(I ended up in a c/s
















I will also add that my son was turned the wrong way, face up, I got confused but I think that's posterior, right, and the "right" way is anterior?


----------



## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds* 

If you had no urge to push, what do you mean by "pushing contractions"?

How do you know? By your own admission, you didn't wait to see. What if you had started pushing much earlier? Maybe you would have just pushed that whole time with no progress, wearing yourself out and hurting yourself. Maybe that 25 minutes of pushing that you did do just happened to coincide with a relatively high degree of readiness on the part of your body, even though it was not yet fully ready to spontaneously move the baby down. I was able to push my baby out (in two hours of pushing) without a pushing urge, too; that is certainly a choice, but it doesn't mean that I had to. But please understand, I'm not saying that the choice you made is not valid. I don't know enough about what your body was doing to be able to make a judgment about it, and I didn't say that there is never any reason to try to get the baby out as soon as the cervix is fully dilated. I am _only_ saying that the assumption that the mother must push at full dilation even without an urge is wrong, is contrary to the natural unfolding of labor, and usually makes for a longer, harder pushing stage than she would have otherwise.

*sigh* I think to a degree we're talking past each other here, because in no way did I disagree with the second half of the above paragraph (regarding 10 cm does not necessarily equal time to push). What bothers me is the assumption that it will *always* happen, and not to worry because no matter what, if you're having an unhindered natural birth, you'll have a pushing urge/reflex. The implication for someone who doesn't is either that (1) you somehow messed up your natural birth, or (2) what you're saying isn't really true - it can't be, because "we know" everyone will have a pushing urge/reflex. What I suggested in my post was that it's fine to wait a few hours, take a nap and rest up if possible - but that it may also be appropriate to push without an urge based on the totality of the circumstances surrounding the birth - how long has mom been waiting; what is mom's exhaustion factor; etc.

Ok, point one. Why did I call them "pushing contractions"? When I arrived at the hospital, my doctor (a family MD who did homebirths for 25 years) asked me, upon hearing the first contraction, "How long have you been having these pushing contractions?" I had no urge to push, but there was incredible pressure and intense pain with each contraction. That started shortly after transition.

You don't have to trust or believe me, but I have thoughtfully analyzed and re-experienced my birth until I feel fairly confident that I know, at least in broad terms, what was happening. I experienced normal early and active labor, lasting about 11 hours. Regular contractions from the start, increasing in intensity. I recognized the release of endorphins multiple times during this 11 hour period (recognized as similar to "runner's high"). I went through transition (hiccuping, shaking legs, transition from just regular contractions to contractions with intense pressure). It took about 30 min. I transferred to the tub. I had a break - ctx slowed down to one every 5 min. I rested, and my water broke. I waited to see if they would speed up a bit again, but it didn't happen. I checked dilation and could not tell what was going on. I asked dh to check, and he thought he felt hair and no cervix, but honestly, I bowled him over with my assertion that I did not know how dilated I was and that it didn't make sense to push unless I had an urge to do so anyway.

Fast forward another half hour or hour, and I got out of the tub to see if things would speed up again. Anyway, the sensations I had with contractions from the end of transition until the last contraction I had as I pushed dd's body out of my body were all _exactly_ the same. There was no differentiating between 6 p.m. ctx and 1 a.m. ctx. All the same. No difference in feeling, no urge to bear down, no reflex, nothing like that. Again, you don't have to believe me - this is just what happened. I'm not making it up to debunk our understanding of how birth works, but I feel it's worthwhile to present the actual, real possibility (since it did actually happen) that a pushing urge may not present.

I completely agree with you that the assumption that mom should push the moment she reaches 10 cm is inappropriate and is poor "management" of labor. I don't think labor should be managed at all; that's why we had a UC/transfer. I transferred because I finally felt, after that many hours of really intense "pushing contractions" that dd should have been born. So off we went to the hospital.

I think it's possible the lip of cervix (if there was one in the end - again, I'm going to see if the doctor can tell me if he actually did move anything out of the way when dd was born) inhibited a pushing urge, but that doesn't mean that (a) I couldn't have pushed over the lip or (b) that I was necessarily destined to get a pushing urge after the lip was moved. For what it's worth, I did not have any change in sensation whatsoever after the second VE (during which the lip was supposedly moved). There was at least one contraction before I started pushing, and it was no different. Also, the contractions WHILE pushing were no different. I had a hard time knowing when to push. No one was telling me to do it or telling me I was having a ctx from the monitor - they waited for me to start pushing. It required tremendous physical effort to push and _in no way did my body assist me in pushing out my baby_ (except in that the contractions of course assist that process generally - but without my conscious, physical pushing efforts, the baby was not descending at all. I had one or two contractions where I threw my head back and screamed; I could not feel the baby descending. When I did as my doula suggested and pushed with my chin down, silently, I felt significant progress.

Maybe I could have had my baby at home if I'd just taken that break after transition and then started pushing shortly after my water broke. But we'll never know. I waited because I anticipated a pushing urge and did not want to disregard my body's signals. Labor had been going great and I was in a great rhythm with my body. I saw no reason to counter that by attempting a push when I was getting no involuntary pushing urges or other signals from my body that it was time to do so.

I know I didn't have a professional there to document cervical dilation, confirm what stage of labor I was in, or what have you. However, I think in retrospect it has been pretty easy to look back and evaluate the physical and emotional state I was in, and assign reasonably certain stages of labor to my birth.

I don't know if I would have had a pushing urge, had I stayed home another 4 hours, or 6 hours, or 10 hours. All I know was I was exhausted, had been in tremendous pain for about 7 hours when we finally called the MD, and I was not prepared to wait much longer. Hindsight is 20/20 and sometimes I wish my dh had just said, "Why don't you try a little push?" I probably would have tried it. But who knows what would have happened then? I don't have the answers to those questions and I don't think anyone does.

Finally, I'm not "admitting" or denying anything. I'm just sharing my opinion and experience. Sure, anyone could pick apart my birth story and say my opinion is totally off-base because I didn't have an expert to tell me how dilated I was, or because I didn't spend another 2 hours roaring through extremely painful contractions "just to see" if a pushing urge would present itself. I felt that I had waited as long as my mind and my body could tolerate. I was extremely patient. And I don't think waiting longer would have benefitted anyone.

If I had waited, and I had had a pushing urge 4 hours later, all I'd have to show for it is more damage to my pelvic floor and 4 more hours of PTSD-inducing trauma to work through. I don't regret the decision to push with the contractions despite not having a pushing urge. At that point, waiting was doing more harm than pushing without an urge. And I think my body gave me a pretty good thumbs up for doing so when dd was born after only 25 min of pushing. I don't believe that the time I started pushing merely coincided with the time my body was ready to push because the sensations were exactly the same the entire time. There was no delineation between pushing contractions while relaxing and pushing contractions while pushing (except that I hated the way pushing felt - I think it's the most awful sensations I've ever experienced. I was only able to convince myself to keep going by saying to myself, "You can't put the baby back in - the only way this is going to be over is for you to keep pushing." Bummer, I was so hoping for an orgasmic birth!).

I hope to have a pushing urge/reflex next time, but I'm not going to assume anything, because birth (and our bodies) aren't that simple or predictable. I think we always do a disservice when we discount others' experiences because they don't fit into our view of natural birth.

Julia
dd 1 year old


----------



## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amygoforth* 
Such an interesting thread!

As a new doula, I've recently witnessed both the urge to push and directed pushing.

For one of the births, the OB encouraged the mom to push against a cervical lip, hoping to help it melt away. This mom was unmedicated, used the squat bar, but had no urge at that point other than the excitement of the thought of finally getting to meet her baby. Several hours later she had a c-section. In hindsight, I suspect that the baby was had not rotated into a favorable position, which is why she 1) still had some cervix, and 2) she had no urge to push. The baby hadn't descended enough to contact the bundle of nerves (ferguson's plexus?) that triggers the fetal ejection reflex. I think that by pushing too soon, she actually forced the baby down into a funny position. _*Can this happen?*_

For my most recent birth, mom went from 4cm to baby in 45 minutes. I watched her work through 15 minutes of transition, then she fell asleep--ASLEEP!-- for 10 minutes. Talk about a "rest and be thankful" period! Then her eyes popped open and she was pushing. She couldn't resist it.

Those are both interesting stories, especially the first one based on my experience. I'm not unhappy that I waited as long as I did, although shortly after the birth I was - because it was so excruciatingly painful for so long. I'm tired of second-guessing myself and just hope it doesn't happen the same way next time.

The second birth is the kind of thing I'm hoping for the next time - quick transition, a nap, and then spontaneous pushing.

Julia
dd 1 year old


----------



## Synchro246 (Aug 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia* 
This concept is just one more reason I totally believe that internal 'exams' are unecessary and in many cases, detrimental/disheartening/disempowering to pregnant and birthing women.

I couldn't agree more. I think so many times a woman gets the urge to "push" "early" because it's what her body needs to dialate and so many times the urge to push will happen when the time is right--even if it's a while after the official "complete" is acheived.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pamamidwife* 
in quite a few cultures women bear down with EVERY contraction all through labor. they do NOT swell their cervixes closed.
. . .

what I'm amazed with is the number of women with epidurals that are told to start pushing as soon as cervix is gone. wouldn't it make more sense to labor the baby down to where it's starting to emerge under the pubic bone?

I feel a very slight urge to bear down a bit with strong BH. I wonder if it's just my body's way to apply the baby's head to the cervix really well. I also can't read a birth story without pushing with the mom, or be at a birth without pushing a bit. . .maybe I'm just a pushy person





















: heh. BUT I do have to say--with my stupid epidural and my posterior asynclytic son I did not feel any urge to push in any way, yet I rejoyced at being told I "could" push (it had been a loooooong labor) and I pushed my brains out for three hours before being exhausted and consenting to a vacuume.
I do wish they had just let the contractions maybe move my baby to a better position and maybe down some before I started the pushing clock.
I agree it would make sense for epidurald women to labor the baby down (probably to a point or with exceptions)--wouldn't it save the Doc work too?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amygoforth* 
. I think that by pushing too soon, she actually forced the baby down into a funny position. _*Can this happen?*_


I totally think so.


----------



## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Now here's a related question - can labor completely and utterly stall out by pushing at 10 without an urge? With my last I had an urge around transition (I think it was psychological desire to be done), but then it went away. Then I was 10 with no urge, but I was ready to have my baby so I started pushing. Then my cervix reversed and my labor stopped completely. 24 hours later I went to the hospital for pitocin (water had been broken for 48 hours) and had to start again at 3 cm (they said there was no way I was ever 10 - but how would they know, do they let women quit laboring at 10 cm and wait 24 hours before intervening? I had afterpains that whole 24 hours prior). What do you think?


----------



## doctorjen (May 29, 2003)

I've been thinking about this thread off and on today. In my own personal births, I've had a variety of experiences. With my first, I started pushing at 10 cms because they told me it was time to push. I pushed for 1 hour 52 minutes, and never had an urge at all whatsoever - but I pushed my heart out because I wanted to see my baby and I was "supposed" to push. I remember being disappointed that the pushing was not the relief at the end of labor I thought it would be.
With second and third, I had a more typical fetal ejection type thing. With both, my water broke after laboring a while, and my body immediately commenced pushing out the baby - it was no more an urge than throwing up is, there was no holding it back, it was like a train roaring through me and both of these babes were out in mere minutes.
With #4, I had an argument with my birth attendant, and then felt like I entered some twilight labor zone, where nothing seemed to change for quite a while, despite having been 8 cms dilated at the time of the argument. Finally, she talked me into breaking my water, and she told me I was completely dilated then. My labor nurse reminded me that I wanted the baby to be born that day (her due date - May 31st) and it was getting late, didn't I want to push? Although I had no desire to push, and certainly not the train rolling through sensation I had with #2 and #3, I pushed because I wanted the baby out in May. She was born 14 minutes later. (at 11:46 pm, just squeaking into May, where I'd wanted her.)

I'll always wonder, I suppose, what would have happened differently if I hadn't had that argument and gotten uncomfortable - would I have pushed her out involunarily like her siblings or would I still have never felt an urge to push?

I'm not sure I believe that every baby would be born by spontaneous fetal ejection reflex if mama was left entirely alone, or that every baby can be born with no consious pushing. I certainly don't think everyone should be having frequent cervical exams and then ordered to push as soon as they are fully dilated, but I'm not sure I believe that every baby would eventually come out with no pushing at all. I rarely do cervical exams late in labor, and rarely direct a mama to push, and the grand majority of births I attend, lo and behold a baby comes out without waiting for my direction. But I also have seen women push spontaneously, without direction, with strong involuntary urge - and yet push for hours and hours with no babe. Often this is due to assyncliticism, or OP positioning or something similar, but occasionally it just happens. I did a vacuum assist in Jan for a first time mom who pushed spontaneously, all over the room, bed, floor, toilet, you name it for 5 hours. After 5 hours, she decided to have a vacuum assist - and with easy application and 1 easy pull, her babe was born in perfect LOA position. What was up with that?


----------



## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

My first baby had an extended head. I pushed involuntarily for hours and hours. My cervix reversed, and I kept pushing, because I couldn't stop. Evenutally I got a "rest and be thankful" phase. When I came out of that, I had no desire to push whatsoever. The midwife told me I could probably push the baby out now. I physically pushed #1 out with very little help from my uterus in 45 min (it felt like 15 - I was just so glad the contractions had stopped). I consider it a great pushing phase - I listened to my body and did what felt best, but I did not have an overwhelming urge until I was crowning.

Second story I posted above. I got the FER on pitocin in the hospital, not at home.

I had some funky things go on in my births. And admittedly it makes me nervous as I plan a UC. But the fact is I've yet to have a labor without interventions to push labor along. I've done AROM, herbs, nipple stim, etc. because my labors are so pokey - I think it has just plain messed me up.

Dr. Jen, once you started pushing without the urge, did you feel an urge take over? Even a small one? When I pushed out my second, I just had a feeling that I wanted to try a push. It wasn't an overwhelming urge - just a thought - once I pushed though, the baby moved so far so fast an overwhelming urge came over me. The first time, I pushed when my midwife suggested, and it was feeling the baby move that tuned me in to what to do. I think taking a test push now and then may be what some women need to do. I don't neccessarily buy the idea either that the baby will always come out without help.


----------



## doctorjen (May 29, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
Dr. Jen, once you started pushing without the urge, did you feel an urge take over? Even a small one?

Nope. And I think that is so odd given the overwhelming , involuntary, body taking over pushing I had with # 2 and #3. With # 1, I didn't really know any better and thought that's just what pushing felt like. With #4, I kept thinking the whole time I was pushing " This really sucks." Crowning was incredibly intense and I just wanted it done, so pushed like crazy, but no, no real urge whatsoever.


----------



## ApprenticeMomma (Apr 5, 2005)

Romana9+2 - My first birth sounds quite similar to your experience I ended up in second stage for 12 hours pushing with no urge, my independant homebirth midwife was coaching me when to push every time...very exhausting. I hear you about wondering what will happen next time. I was quite prepared to have no urge the next time.. but the good news is that went from a 24 hour labour (12 hours pushing) to a 4 hour labour (2 hours pushing) with the most AMAZINGLY strong pushing urge...it was one of the most wonderful experieces of my life, and I really really hope you get to experience it...


----------



## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Romana9+2* 
What bothers me is the assumption that it will *always* happen, and not to worry because no matter what, if you're having an unhindered natural birth, you'll have a pushing urge/reflex. The implication for someone who doesn't is either that (1) you somehow messed up your natural birth, or (2) what you're saying isn't really true - it can't be, because "we know" everyone will have a pushing urge/reflex.

Of course complications and dysfunction happen. That's not to say that someone somehow messed up their birth, but certainly something isn't right if the mother doesn't get an urge to push. I should have clarified that the reflex is what happens in a _normal_ labor.

Quote:

What I suggested in my post was that it's fine to wait a few hours, take a nap and rest up if possible - but that it may also be appropriate to push without an urge based on the totality of the circumstances surrounding the birth - how long has mom been waiting; what is mom's exhaustion factor; etc.
Agreed. And I did say that I wasn't denying that.

While the details of your story are interesting and far more telling than to simply say "I had pushing contractions for hours and never got a pushing urge", I'm sorry to have come across like I was calling for you to defend yourself. At no point, though, was I discounting your experience or saying that I think you made wrong choices, and was in fact careful to say that's what I _wasn't_ doing. I was only questioning the assumption that full dilation without an urge means the mother has to decide to push the baby out.


----------



## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
Dr. Jen, once you started pushing without the urge, did you feel an urge take over? Even a small one? When I pushed out my second, I just had a feeling that I wanted to try a push. It wasn't an overwhelming urge - just a thought - once I pushed though, the baby moved so far so fast an overwhelming urge came over me. The first time, I pushed when my midwife suggested, and it was feeling the baby move that tuned me in to what to do. I think taking a test push now and then may be what some women need to do. I don't neccessarily buy the idea either that the baby will always come out without help.

I had two similar experiences, one in which the voluntary pushing never resulted in an urge (like Dr. Jen's,) and another in which the "test push" stimulated an urge. That my voluntary pushing in each case had different results doesn't seem like a big mystery to me. In the first case my body wasn't ready for the baby to be born and trying to force him out in spite of that resulted in my body getting confused and shutting down. In the second case my body was ready. I think that's all the difference that is necessary to get different results, although there can be other differences too, in my case the environment and the stigator for deciding to push -- in the first case, inhibition and the midwife, in the second, privacy and my body sending me not a physical urge, but an intuition that I could try bearing down.

Quote:

I did a vacuum assist in Jan for a first time mom who pushed spontaneously, all over the room, bed, floor, toilet, you name it for 5 hours. After 5 hours, she decided to have a vacuum assist - and with easy application and 1 easy pull, her babe was born in perfect LOA position. What was up with that?
I don't know, but if there was nothing physically impeding the baby's descent I'm skeptical about it being an issue of her body just not being capable of expelling the baby. What do you think?


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

I did a vacuum assist in Jan for a first time mom who pushed spontaneously, all over the room, bed, floor, toilet, you name it for 5 hours. After 5 hours, she decided to have a vacuum assist - and with easy application and 1 easy pull, her babe was born in perfect LOA position. What was up with that?
I totally don't want to psychoanalyze or come across as judging this mama, but I wonder if it might not be a case of someone (subconsciously perhaps) who believes in the need for technology/medical assistance and/or inherent defectiveness theory sold to women over the years? I have someone in my family who is a two-time birthing mama who totally believes that she can't birth w/o "being delivered." I'm not saying this is what might have happened with this birth, but it's what struck me. Five hours is a long time!

(It never feels right to me when people suggest that difficult births are always the result/fault of the birthing mama...so please don't misinterpret







)


----------



## doctorjen (May 29, 2003)

Yeah, I don't know. That's about what it comes down to. This was not a very technology loving mama, and she seemed comfortable and supported during her labor. She was a very quiet, mild mannered lady. I mean very quiet - it's her natural personality and she was equally quiet and calm all through labor and even after the baby was born. She sure looked liked she was pushing like crazy, though! She started pushing in the tub, then decided to get out and pushed all over the room. At 3 hours, I did an exam and she was fully dilated with the baby at +3 station and LOA position (actually, a tiny patch of the baby's scalp was just visible if you separated the labia) I was sure the babe would be out quickly. An hour later, there was no obvious change and she was exhausted. I offered the vacuum at that point, and she said she'd like to keep going. She had a second wind at that point and got up and pushed standing up for a while, then moved to squatting - and still no baby. Finally, she asked me to go ahead with the vacuum - and the babe was out in one contraction. My official theory was that the baby had her feet curled around a rib. (Why not? It makes as much sense as any other dumb theory!)
Of course, who knows what would have happened if she were alone with her husband somewhere - maybe that babe would have sailed right out - or maybe she would have felt unsafe and would have eventually ended up at the hospital?
The vacuum assist was the only technology she had - no IV, no continuous monitor, no pain meds, no episiotomy, etc.
Seems to me that even if there was some sort of pyschological issue that 5 hours would be a long time for the pelvic floor to hold a well positioned baby in!


----------



## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

My official theory was that the baby had her feet curled around a rib. (Why not? It makes as much sense as any other dumb theory!)










You're right, you'd think that if the baby would fly out with a mild vacuum, the uterus should have been able to move the baby down itself in a squatting position. Obviously her body was able to birth the baby -- cervix out of the way, wide enough pelvis, etc. But _something_ was holding the baby up. I hate to attribute it to psychological issues -- that always seems to me like a cop-out for a provider who can't figure it out and wants to blame someone else. (I'm a little sensitive about this because that's what the length of my first labor and pushing stage was blamed on, and to me it felt like I was being told, "if only you were more self-actualized and less neurotic, you could have had an easier birth." Bah. Please spare me the armchair psychiatry, just get your hands and eyes off me and I assure you my body will be able to override any character flaws I have.)

Maybe it's as simple as that the way she was "pushing" was tightening things up rather than opening things up. I can sit here right now and put out an awful lot of exertion, hold my breath, tighten the muscles around my abdomen and back, but at the same time I can feel my vagina squeezing shut too. _Or_ I can push out my pelvic floor. It's a horizontal vs. vertical action. I've noticed the same thing with sex, actually -- for years I would tighten up and inward with the intensity (and still sometimes eventually come to orgasm, although it was a lot harder) and then I figured out I could sort of melt my body and push my vulva out and let the genitals fill with blood. Argh, it's such a hard thing to describe! But you know what I'm talking about, right?

The fact that she was pushing spontaneously -- well, I've heard women say, "oh no, I don't check dilation," but they still believe second stage is about them _deciding_ to get the baby out, and they've only substituted "the urge" for "full dilation" as the sign that they're supposed to do that now. So it's spontaneous in the sense that they're doing it without being told, but _not_ spontaneous in the sense that they're doing it while making a conscious decision to do it. Women need to know that the pushing urge doesn't mean "time to push the baby out", but rather "push as far as feels good and relieves the urge, no more and no less."

My final thought is that if this is the case, then maybe when she gave up and stopped trying to get the baby out -- laid back, gave the outcome over to you -- she relaxed enough for her body to let the baby out. Possibility?


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

My final thought is that if this is the case, then maybe when she gave up and stopped trying to get the baby out -- laid back, gave the outcome over to you -- she relaxed enough for her body to let the baby out. Possibility?
From my armchair, it sounds very plausible







But, like y'all, I tend to wonder about stuff but try very hard to not to assign 'blame.' Human beings are endlessly fascinating







Thank you for such a great discussion, everyone!


----------



## NatureMama3 (Feb 25, 2004)

now it's wandering into the area that I found so interesting in Spiritual Midwifery, the affect of the psyche on birth. I definitely believe there is a lot the mind can do to interfere with normal delivery, even when the person isn't aware of what is at the root of the problem.


----------



## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia* 
From my armchair, it sounds very plausible









Hey! Stop pointing out my inconsistencies!







Seriously, though, I wasn't trying to say there _isn't_ a mind-body connection, absolutely there is. I'd try to elaborate more on what I was trying to get across, but I'm out of time and it probably isn't important that I do so anyway.









Love you, Georgia!


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Was I pointing out inconsistencies? Ooops














You're anything but inconsistent, FLB









FTR, I'm a huge believer in the holistic paradigm of birth (body/mind/spirit and mother/baby are interconnected/what's good for one is good for the other, etc.).

Well, I'm sure I've derailed this thread far enough


----------



## Synchro246 (Aug 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds* 
:for years I would tighten up and inward with the intensity (and still sometimes eventually come to orgasm, although it was a lot harder) and then I figured out I could sort of melt my body and push my vulva out and let the genitals fill with blood. Argh, it's such a hard thing to describe! But you know what I'm talking about, right?


Actually, you described it so well I actually went "eww" and that's not a reaction I normally have to much of anything.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds* 
*I'd try to elaborate more* on what I was trying to get across, but I'm out of time. . .


Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia* 
*You're anything but inconsistent*, FLB









I'll say. . .





















:

Seriously this thead is great. Check out the kick bottom DDDDC I earned









Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia* 
Well, I'm sure I've derailed this thread far enough









Never!


----------



## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia*
Was I pointing out inconsistencies? Ooops You're anything but inconsistent, FLB











Wellll... I was pouting about arm chair psychiatry and then you pointed out something I said that could be interpreted as such so I thought you were calling me on it. Does that make sense? I am feeling convoluted so I'd better stop.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *synchro*
Check out the kick bottom DDDDC I earned

Hee hee! Somebody was paying attention.







I love MDC!


----------



## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
Now here's a related question - can labor completely and utterly stall out by pushing at 10 without an urge? With my last I had an urge around transition (I think it was psychological desire to be done), but then it went away. Then I was 10 with no urge, but I was ready to have my baby so I started pushing. Then my cervix reversed and my labor stopped completely.

Exhaustion? Disappointment at the time/effort for no return?


----------



## Synchro246 (Aug 8, 2005)

NEW question. I could start a new thread, but I figure I should just ask here.

I am 36.5 weeks. (I had my first son at 37-38 weeks).

I've been having BH, no biggie. I felt some pressure tonight, no biggie. Then I got one big long BH and well, the urge to push. Not a lot, but I felt like letting my pelvic floor relax and tightening my abdominals--this combo is a little pushy.

Thoughts?


----------



## roadfamily6now (Sep 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
Probably for the same reason when you are ready to push, they start yelling at you to wait and don't push. Failure to respect a woman's intuition.

I agree


----------



## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Synchro246* 
I've been having BH, no biggie. I felt some pressure tonight, no biggie. Then I got one big long BH and well, the urge to push. Not a lot, but I felt like letting my pelvic floor relax and tightening my abdominals--this combo is a little pushy.

All I can tell you is that around 37 weeks I started getting a lot of cramping, loss of mucus, and every once in a while getting the urge to bear down. It felt so good to give into it! Baby was born at 40 weeks after two nights of prodromal labor and a third full night of labor.


----------



## Synchro246 (Aug 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds* 
All I can tell you is that around 37 weeks I started getting a lot of cramping, loss of mucus, and every once in a while getting the urge to bear down. It felt so good to give into it! Baby was born at 40 weeks after two nights of prodromal labor and a third full night of labor.









Wow! Good to know. That will keep me from getting discouraged, YK. It did feel good to give into it. Do you think it was to help your cervix efface?


----------



## 3MF (Apr 14, 2007)

I haven't read all the replies and haven't even given birth yet!...but I have a thought. Actually it's a question because I really don't know the answer but would really like to. I'm afraid I'm going to sound very ignorant though. But here goes. Is there only a certain amount of time (a "window") that you can stay fully dilated and so when you finally reach 10 cm it becomes necessary to push? Well, I think I'm going to go off and hide now!







But, I mean, I know it's possible to reverse dilate (as in the whole fight or flight response and such) so that could happen just as easily at fully right? So that would just seem awful to get to 10 and then reverse.


----------



## NatureMama3 (Feb 25, 2004)

It is possible for reverse dilation (for instance, it can happen between twins), but it is NOT terribly common. I wouldn't worry about that at all, frankly.


----------

