# Sensitive question based on an observation



## Vespertina (Sep 30, 2006)

Is there a point where a loss is included in the number of children one has or what # they're trying for? For instance, over the years I've seen many references to moms having X amount children and X number of "angels." Like when a mom has one child and lost her second baby at, say, 12 weeks and has it in her siggy or a blinkie that they're trying for #2. Is there a point where a loss is included in the number of children one has?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I think only the people involved can make that decision.

It is SO personal. One woman may feel that her 5 week loss should be included and another not feel that her 12 week loss should. Only the mom (or dad if that's who's talking) can decide that.

-Angela


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## JayJay (Aug 1, 2008)

Josie is in my children







I felt her personality within me, so I can't deny her "personhood" you know? So yeah, that's what I tell people and then I pull out her pictures if they want to see (which without exception, they always do)

*HUGE hugs* XXX


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## Cheshire (Dec 14, 2004)

I think it is totally up to the parents. Personally, I count that I have two children (three now, I'm 19 weeks along) but if I'm in line at the grocery store and someone asks how many kids we have it depends on how I'm feeling. If I feel like telling I do. Sometimes, I don't want to have to explain and get asked so many other questions - it's none of their business so I don't tell.

I take it moment by moment.


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## expatmommy (Nov 7, 2006)

I'm still feeling this one out. In my heart & with our family, we have 4 kids. I'm happy to talk about Max but I'm not willing to open up the discussion with aquaintances to "well, you were only 22+ weeks along so he wasn't really a baby like a newborn...". In some instances, I feel almost obliged to justify my loss & in those circumstances I'd just rather not talk about it.


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## MommaSomeday (Nov 29, 2006)

I agree that it's a very personal thing. For us, we tend to tell people that we have one son, but he died just after birth. I have no problem talking about Gideon with random strangers, so it's okay for me.


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## famille_huggins (Mar 30, 2007)

It's both a personal and situational thing. When people ask if this pregnancy is my first, I say I have two children *at home* or this will be my third *at home.* It's confusing enough to a stranger that they rarely press, but its enough for me that I feel I'm not dishonoring the babies that have gone on before me. I don't necessarily explain my losses unless they press or the conversation turns in such a way that I feel it would be helpful overall.


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## mommato5 (Feb 19, 2007)

I don't consider my miscarriages at all. Mary was a person, a living breathing baby girl. Yes, I do share her with whoever and do tell people what happened in the hopes that maybe they can learn something from my story.


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## haleyelianasmom (Nov 5, 2005)

Well, It's personal. I guess it depends on who you're talking to. I feel that the "fetus" (to be technical I guess) we lost was a person. A small person incapable of life on it's own, but it was a person. We lost the pregnancy, my second pregnancy, at 9 weeks 5 days. So yes, this person was my child even if I never really felt I knew him/her. And losing this tiny person, I did lose a child. However, unless it specifically came up, I wouldn't go around telling people I have 1 child and one angel. I actually felt a bit odd putting the angel thing in my sig, but I also don't want to brush this person aside as if it never existed. So I will remember the brief life it had. But if someone asks me home many kids I have, I have one because she's all I really have here and now. I hope that answers your question.

I have a feeling this question somehow crosses over into individuals' beliefs on when life really begins, which is truly a personal belief and different from person to person.


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## Vespertina (Sep 30, 2006)

I certainly understand that it's deeply personal and maybe spiritual (for some). I was just hoping to hear different thoughts or perspectives. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, ladies.


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## SMR (Dec 21, 2004)

Dresden is definitely included in my count..his picture is out in my house, his ashes are worn around my neck, I held him in my womb and in my arms.. but if I'd had a miscarriage, probably not. I'm not sure at what point in a pregnancy I would include a loss into my 'count' of children. (I sure hope I don't have to find out.) I would always acknowledge the pregnancy number though.


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## namaste_mom (Oct 21, 2005)

I went through a period where I didn't include Norah because I couldn't explain without crying but I always felt guilty. Now, almost 16 months out, I'm back to including her in the count even to strangers. I don't want pregnancy loss to be such a taboo subject and if I can do just a little bit to make people aware that it happens to everyone and it could happen to them, then I feel like I did something.


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## Fireflyforever (May 28, 2008)

I count Emma as my child but not my 6 week loss (I called "him", Asher and I do include him here sometimes when I'm talking to other mamas about m/c, although not in my siggy - I just couldn't word it how I felt happy.). For me, the count goes (so far): 4 pregnancies, 3 children, 2 here with me


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## namaste_mom (Oct 21, 2005)

Jill - that was my count also pre-Maya. (((HUGS)))


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## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

I think it's personal. I consider DS an 'only child' for the most part, though I do refer to Mackenzie as 'my daughter', 'Brodie's sister', etc. But when people ask how many kids I have I say one, as I'm assuming they are asking about living children. I also had a mc at 10 weeks that doesn't come up as much, probably because a) I only knew I was pregnant for less than a month, and b) I never felt that baby move or knew its gender. Not that that baby was not just as real, but there's certainly a difference between carrying a baby for 42 weeks and giving birth and carrying a baby for 10 weeks (well, and 2 months beyond that, since I never naturally mc'd) and having a D&C.

When I was pregnant with him and people asked if this was my first I said it was my third, mostly just to avoid all the dumb stuff people tell first time moms.


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## Cuddlebaby (Jan 14, 2003)

I've been using a phrase I learned here. "I have five children with the priviledge of rearing four". I love it a lot.


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## caro113 (Aug 25, 2008)

It definitely depends on the person. Some people are just really traumatized by it and as a way of moving on, they don't count them per se. I'm the eldest of eight but still an only child. And my mother says she has one child. Well, now she says she has two bc she includes DP, but she has never included those lost babies.

I say I have two children. I have my daughter and my step daughter. I go back and forth on the TTC# though. Technically, we would be TTC#3 but it would only be my 2nd pregnancy. She's in my siggy, always has been, so I would say TTC#3, I think. I dunno. It gets iffy there but only because my step daughter is not my natural born daughter. But we're also an 'odd' family in that sense. Whren, my step daughter, is with her mom in heaven, and my daughter, Maeleigh, is named after Whren's mom (her middle name was Mae), who is her angel mommy. So we include them in everything. I'm really big on doing that. I have two children, one is just with her mom in heaven. (Maeleigh's big sister and angel mommy even kissed her and left a mark on her forehead. It's a sideways heart. Whren was so excited for a little sister.) And yes, we talk to them. DP talks to them through his dreams and Maeleigh and I say good night to them whenever we get the chance. (sometimes my parents put her to sleep and then bring her up so we don't talk to them then) When she's older I'm hoping she kisses the picture(s) good night, but I won't force that on her. It's sort of like night time prayers, but I'm not a praying person.

Either way, Whren is included. And she has to be. If I don't include her she'll start playing tricks on me again.  She likes to turn on lights and move my pencils around. I can only imagine what she'll start to do when she gets older.

ETA: I should add that Whren was never technically "born". She was 7 months gestation when she and her mom were killed. DP also says he has two children, but he never brings that up to people because "it's just too hard for me to explain."


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## karika (Nov 4, 2005)

it depends on the question. if someone asks me how many children i have (have is present tense) i say 2. but there are other conversations in which i say i have had 3 children, daniel was out of me for 8 weeks almost, so i held him in my arms, fed him at my breast, he was my baby. my miscarriage was at 5 weeks pregnant or something, i mean i had only missed my period for 3 weeks.... since i never held the baby, in fact it was only a group of cells when i miscarried, i only include it here or if I was having a convo about how many times i have been pregnant.


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## Amy&4girls (Oct 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *namaste_mom* 
I don't want pregnancy loss to be such a taboo subject and if I can do just a little bit to make people aware that it happens to everyone and it could happen to them, then I feel like I did something.

I very much agree w/this.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cuddlebaby* 
I've been using a phrase I learned here. "I have five children with the priviledge of rearing four". I love it a lot.

I really like that.

I *always* include each of my children..although there are times (rarely) when I include them by omission....saying I have 5 children here or in my arms or something along those lines. But usually I will just tell people. After we had our first daughter after having lost our son it was actually said to me that now I could move on and forget about my son and quit being so sad all the time because I had my daughter to replace him. I can't tell you how much that upset me. And I really felt like that's what everyone thought..esp as our daughter was born so soon (too soon really) after losing our son. So it is even more important to me that they be acknowledged so no one ever thinks/says that again. Even though I know in my heart that wasn't the case it upsets me that their memories will not be carried on by others. Ok now I'm just rambling and I don't even think my thoughts are coming out as I want them to..sorry


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## Fireflyforever (May 28, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amy&4girls* 

I *always* include each of my children..although there are times (rarely) when I include them by omission....saying I have 5 children here or in my arms or something along those lines. But usually I will just tell people. After we had our first daughter after having lost our son it was actually said to me that now I could move on and forget about my son and quit being so sad all the time because I had my daughter to replace him. I can't tell you how much that upset me. And I really felt like that's what everyone thought..esp as our daughter was born so soon (too soon really) after losing our son. So it is even more important to me that they be acknowledged so no one ever thinks/says that again. Even though I know in my heart that wasn't the case it upsets me that their memories will not be carried on by others. Ok now I'm just rambling and I don't even think my thoughts are coming out as I want them to..sorry









I think you've said it perfectly. We're hoping to have our fourth child and, if it all works out, I don't want anyone believing that a new child is a *replacement* or a reason not to be sad about Emma. I am reminded of a scene in Harry Potter where Hermione tells Ron, "Just because you have the emotional range of a teabag ..." ... I don't understand why people would assume we don't have the emotional range and complexity to love and grieve our missing children eternally, yet love and cherish their siblings. Why must one feeling negate the other?


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## organicpapayamama (Dec 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cheshire* 
I think it is totally up to the parents. Personally, I count that I have two children (three now, I'm 19 weeks along) but if I'm in line at the grocery store and someone asks how many kids we have it depends on how I'm feeling. If I feel like telling I do. Sometimes, I don't want to have to explain and get asked so many other questions - it's none of their business so I don't tell.

I take it moment by moment.









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