# Being one of "those" mothers...



## Mindful Mom (Jun 9, 2003)

I'm not totally sure why I'm posting this now -- other than just to get it off my chest. I don't post here (or anywhere for that matter) all that often because I'm a terrible "nak-er", but I do spend a lot of time reading and learning. We moved recently and my DD has reacted by needed to nap while latched on --- so I've been spending more time here than usual.

I'd really like to share something that bothers me about many of the posts I see here at MDC (as well as other AP sites). A sizable number of posts seem to take aim at examples of "poor" or "mainstream" mothering seen in stores, restaurants, or other people's homes. Whenever I read a post of this nature, I think of all the times I might have appeared to me one of "those" mothers.

The most recent example was about a month ago when the kids and I had to run to the grocery store. It was *freezing* cold outside, but we really had to go (DH had a late meeting that night and we really needed milk and other essentials). DD was still in the bucket carseat -- something we decided to do because it would be easier to keep her warm during the nasty New England winter. Unless she was sound asleep in the bucket, she always went right into the sling as soon as we got inside. Anyway -- we get to the store and it's freezing (-10 with the wind). I get DS loaded into the cart. He's angry because we were at the store, so he's crying. DD was crying because she was strapped into the bucket and didn't want to be. The only open spot was pretty far away from the store, so I zipped the bunting over DD's head until we get to the store. We get in the store and the large automatic doors are stuck open, so I decided to navigate somewhere away from the draft/wind before I took DD out of the bucket. Both kids are crying the entire time. Of course, as soon as I got to a warm place, I took Zoe out of the bucket and popped her in the sling. Ean got a bagel, calmed down, and we chatted about the bird that was flying around the store. Both kids were happy and the outing was fun (albiet cold!).

So, if you had seen me in the store, you would have seen a mother with an upset toddler and a crying baby in a bucket and totally enclosed in her nanobag bunting. You might have looked at me and thought "please pick that baby up" or " what a terrible 'mainstream' mother". You might have even come here and posted about what a horrible thing you saw at Stop & Shop!!

Then there's the time (also in Stop & Shop -- lol!) that Ean was really needed my full attention. He was sitting in the cart and I had Zoe in the sling. Zoe was tired and fussing in the sling a bit. I was trying to nurse her to sleep in the sling as I was walking around the store. Ean was getting more and more frustrated and angry that I was paying attention to Zoe, so he started kicking the sling. I knew it wasn't the time or place to reason with him, so I decided to try to put Zoe in her bucket (which was in the big part of the cart) and give Ean my full attention. She wasn't thrilled about being in the bucket and was fussing (not crying). I kept offering her a pacifier while I attended to Ean. We were in line already, so there was no point in leaving the store. So, that day, you would have seen a baby in a bucket and a mom who was "pushing" a paci. Again, I could see myself being the subject of a critical post here at MDC.

What you wouldn't have known about me is that I am a responsive, loving mother who left a fancy-schmancy career as a neuroscientist to be a SAHM. We co-sleep, sling, breastfeed on demand, and cloth-diaper. I don't ever spank and do my level best not to raise my voice. I work hard and do my best to meet the needs of my children.

Nearly every time I log on to MDC, I see another post about the horrible things that someone saw happen in the grocery store/mall/library/restaurant. These posts tend to get lots of views and have lots of responses. Sometimes the incidents are truely outrageous and horrifying, but, frequently, they could easily be about someone like me. How do we know that the mom with the crying baby isn't a wonderful AP-- or heck, a wonderful 'mainstream' (don't like that term!) mom who was having a really bad day? Or just a mom who was doing the best she could?

I guess it just upsets me to come someplace like MDC (a wonderful place for both support and education) and feel like I could be the subject of such harsh and blind judgement. I've always thought that compassion and empathy were the 2 corner stones of AP, but, it seems like AP moms are some of the harshest judges.

I'm not trying to start a huge arguement and I really hope I don't get too horribly flamed --- I've just been thinking about this for a really long time and needed to unload.

Thanks for reading!


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## morgan's_mom (Aug 25, 2002)

I have often thought the same thing. I'm sure many of the moms here would think I was "one of those moms" if they saw me with my highlighted hair, fake nails, full face of makeup, and designer clothes at my suburban utopia mall, pushing my dd in a stroller while she eats Chick-Fil-A nuggets. Most probably wouldn't guess that I am a homebirthing, extended nursing, co-sleeping, slinging (when she'll have it), cloth diapering, homeopathy-using mama. But you know what? I really don't care. I used to, but now, I have developed the attitude that if people want to brand me a "mainstream" or "unattached" parent because of the way I look, fine with me. It's their loss.

When I see a mom doing something in a store or whatever that causes to me make a kneejerk judgment, I try to remind myself that I don't know what kind of day she has had and that I am only seeing a snapshot of her life.


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## dreadmama (Jan 8, 2004)

I totally agree you with you. I am fairly new to the boards, but I have been bothered by the way people judge others' parenting! It is amazing how a lot of these commentaries are judging others based on a tiny glimpse of their lives!









I have never been one for being part of a group, and I'm still not. I don't consider myself AP, because I don't want to put a label on my lifestyle and how I raise my daugther. (maybe you've noticed by I refuse to use the abbreviations everyone uses... my daughter is not a 'dd', she is my daughter!).

Anyway, it seems that for some people, they need to be a part of a group or click. Just because someone follows an 'AP' methodology towards child rearing doesn't mean that they are not judgemental. It seems that people are too quick to judge others based on very little information. Maybe it makes them feel superior to put other people down.

I personally focus on doing the best I can in raising my daughter, and I don't worry about others unless they ask for my help/advice.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Hey, I thought I was the only one who didn't do those abbreviations...

I've decided that the "stuff" isn't really what matters, to me anyway. If modifying what you eat or wear or watch helps you parent more mindfully, then by all means, do it, but I don't see those things as the important thing. The important thing is how you treat your children, pure and simple. If you're responding to their needs, treating them with gentleness and respect, and being a thoughtful parent, and you think about issues and make conscious decisions, then I don't think it matters if you decide that McNuggets work for your family, or shirts with Rugrats on them.

YMMV,

Dar


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

I know that I have appeared to be one of "those" mothers very frequently. Not only that, but I never did get a hang of the sling and so my kids were always strollered, held in the snugli, or most often just plain held.

I try not to pass judgement based on little things like crying kids in the store (heaven knows it happens to me often enough), or tantrumming toddlers, or anything like that (I'll try to help if I can - ask if I can hold a baby or watch a bag or something). But ocassionaly something will happen, like a mom will slap her child hard on the back of the head, and then I just get angry. I tend to reserve my judgement for moments like that.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know you're not alone - I certainly look bad enough a lot of the time.


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## morgan's_mom (Aug 25, 2002)

Quote:

I try not to pass judgement based on little things like crying kids in the store (heaven knows it happens to me often enough), or tantrumming toddlers, or anything like that (I'll try to help if I can - ask if I can hold a baby or watch a bag or something). But ocassionaly something will happen, like a mom will slap her child hard on the back of the head, and then I just get angry. I tend to reserve my judgement for moments like that.
Yep, me too. As much as I try to take the "I don't know what kind of day she's had" attitude, there are some times that I do make a judgment because IMO *nobody* could have a day bad enough to excuse the behavior (like hitting the child or, as I saw one mother do, scream at the child and call her a retard).


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by morgan's_mom_
*I have often thought the same thing. I'm sure many of the moms here would think I was "one of those moms" if they saw me with my highlighted hair, fake nails, full face of makeup, and designer clothes at my suburban utopia mall, pushing my dd in a stroller while she eats Chick-Fil-A nuggets. Most probably wouldn't guess that I am a homebirthing, extended nursing, co-sleeping, slinging (when she'll have it), cloth diapering, homeopathy-using mama. But you know what? I really don't care. I used to, but now, I have developed the attitude that if people want to brand me a "mainstream" or "unattached" parent because of the way I look, fine with me. It's their loss.

When I see a mom doing something in a store or whatever that causes to me make a kneejerk judgment, I try to remind myself that I don't know what kind of day she has had and that I am only seeing a snapshot of her life.








*

EXACTLY!
I never understand on this board when women judge other women based on a few minute's snapshot of their life. (and yes that could be interpreted as me judging those posters-- I have no particular poster or instance in mind, btw )
It is best to give the "benefit of the doubt" and think about others judging us, and the possible ways that any mother, even an ap one could end up looking "bad" for a few minutes in public.


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## IslandMamma (Jun 12, 2003)

Right on! I totally agree, and it kills me to see so much judgement passed when we're all doing the best we can.

However....

This is also a place where people can come and vent about those things. In my limited experience, people ardent about mothering to the best of their ability also tend to be pretty passionate. I think that's where alot of the judgement comes from, in folks wanting to cry out in a supportive atmosphere of mostly like-minded women when they see a foul.

I'd *love* to see less judgement on these boards, but I also love them as a place where I can come vent, too...

Well-worded post, Mindful Mom!


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I've realized in the past few years that there is a fine line between activism and elitism. I believe that the way I parent is activism-- I'm actively doing something that I believe will change the world.

Those threads that are nothing but lists of things that "other" parents do that annoy the poster are elitism, nothing else. They accomplish nothing other than to showcase what perfect, wonderful parents the posters are. I try not to read them and I certainly don't post in them. As a matter of fact, those threads are a big part of why I've never been able to get totally immersed in this community. The judgement and negativity does nothing to help or uplift anyone, which is what activism should be about.


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## moss (Feb 7, 2004)

Mindful Mom~thank you! we all need to be reminded once in a while that all of us moms are on the same team


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

Excellent points made.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Well, I can be very judgemental in my private head. But I try to quell that internal judgemental voice when I'm at the grocery store, because it doesn't take much to see that grocery shopping is pretty stressful for a lot of children.

I've praised other moms for keeping their cool and I've had praise from other moms for keeping mine, in the grocery store. If you were one of the moms I praised or one of the ones who praised me, thanks for your positive modeling.


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## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

I agree with both the spirit and the letter of your OP, Mindful Mom. There have been several posts of late commenting on the judgemental quality of MDC, and its good to see that so many other people have noticed, and resisted, too. It raises my hackles to see so many posts complaining about what people have seen perfect strangers do in public places. I sometimes think, when will my bad day be broadcast on MDC?


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## Summertime Mommy (Dec 5, 2003)

Wow, I am glad I read this post. I have come to this site several times, and left feeling like I am a bad mom for things that I may or may not choose to do. I always shop with my youngest in the infant carrier, unless dh is with me. Gwen hates her sling, but she really enjoys being in the carrier, so that is where she sits. I also have been known to bribe my older children with the promise of a treat, to get them listen to me in the grocery store. The absolute worst thing that I do though, is feed my dd formula. I feel embarassed every time I make her a bottle. But why is she on formula? Because as soon as my period came back, she went on a nursing strike for over a month, then I got pregnant again and my milk supply decreased even more, and she was done. I think if I was seen on the street, I would easily me mistaken for a mainstream mom, but I am not. I cloth diaper, cosleep, use GD, BF for as long as my baby would allow it. I am glad to see I am not the only mom on these boards, who is not perfect.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Good thread.

I am a mix of mainstream (in some respects) and AP (in many respects), but I get funny looks from both sides!







:

At least my Goo still loves me at the end of the day!


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

I'm one of "those" mothers too....I wear makeup, my baby has plastic toys, and we *gasp* vax....but I also co-sleep, sling, breastfeed, cloth diaper, cloth mama, and spend 24 hours a day with my baby playing with him... Am I a bad mother? Nope...and neither are you. We all pick the form of parenting that works best for us and our babies.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Thank you for bringing this up. I feel compelled to defend what ever mom is being bashed because i think perhaps they are talking to me. I see scenes in a store and have nothing but sympathy or the poor mom and baby. Ava would cry if the cart went too slow. seriously, I would have to run through the store grabbing stuff and dodging people without going beloow the minimum speed requirement. it is just easier in Soiuth dakota if you can leave your child in the bucket with thier cumbersome snowsuit on., It is no picnic gettingin and out of those. She was hungry. I wasn't yet adept at feeding while walking. I was going to quick grab some toilet paper for our store, a snack for me and the girls and the run to our store (across the street from the store I was shopping at) where I could sit in a comfportable chair and nurse while my older children ate. IT WAS A GOOD PLAN.So I am running through the store like a lunatic (because we can't go slow







: ) my older children are crying because they are hungry and having a hard time keeping up because we are running and then out of nowhere this somewhat familiar looking woman comes up to see the new baby. I am sure I knew her from somewhere but couldn't place her face (ILs know everyone in town and the people they don't know dh does). So she chats about the baby, makes an attempt to sooth her and then makes some comment about her being hungry. I may have rolled my eyes and said "yeah, but it is hard to feed her while standing here" In the meantime the only reason she was screaming was because this lady had cornered us to judge us and state the obvious. So in a few short minutes we were sitting in the bike shop eating pretzles and drinking milk and I was feeding my hungry baby. BUT THEN a few days later my friend mentions that she had talked to this lady and she said somehting to her about me l;atting my baby scream and not feeding her. God bless mary who said "That must not have been Sandra, she can nurse her baby while walking and shopping and tending to her other children all without breaking a sweat or being the least bit self conscience. She would never just refuse her baby. She must have had a good reason" But dang, that woman, was judging me and talking about me behind my back. I was so mad. She had no idea what kind of mother I was and she was a huge part of the problem that day. It turned out, she hunted me down from across the store. She heard a newborn crying and had to come see what the deal was







:

And there are lots of other not so shining moments in my life :LOL especially at grocery stores. In the end I try to do what is best for my family. And if that isn't Ap enough for the AP elite then so be it.


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## simple gifts (Feb 27, 2003)

OK, I agree about not judging, but OTOH, writing about something you saw someone do in the store isn't exactly passing judgement, either.

Of course everyone has a bad day, or several of them. And of course you can never be certain what kind of mother a person is by one brief glimpse into that woman's life. However, writing about it here isn't the same as calling a mom out in public for her "poor" parenting, or painting a scarlet "M" on her plastic baby bucket.

When I see posts here about something someone saw at the mall, etc, I just take it for what it is. A situation that rubbed the poster the wrong way. If I see someone whose baby is crying in the plastic seat, it bothers me. I probably don't assume that the mom never picks up the baby, unless I hear the same baby crying the whole time I'm there. Even then I am aware that there could most certainly be a good reason for the mother's actions. I'm aware it could be me on any given day. It still bothers me.

So perhaps we are passing judgement on the MDCers a little quickly as well. Perhaps they are commenting on the situation and their reaction as much as on that particular person. If they didn't actually tell that mom she was a lousy mom, and just whined about it here, then no real harm was done, IMO.


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by mothersong_
*If they didn't actually tell that mom she was a lousy mom, and just whined about it here, then no real harm was done, IMO.*
I kind of agree with this, since IMO if you vent online it is much better than getting in a mom's face when she's having a bad day. If it has a cathartic effect, go for it, but I think that we should attempt to make it more of a self-examination thing sometimes - why does this bug me? why do I feel so bad about it? do I really think she is a bad person, or am I just having a bad day and crying is rubbing me the wrong way? I think a lot of times it is all in the wording (often, how we word things is a subconscious expression of how we are analyzing the situation) - "I couldn't believe she did that!" is worlds different from "I felt so bad when I heard that" even if they address the exact same situation.


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## mraven721 (Mar 10, 2004)

Well said Mindful Mom. I am sure there are times we all look like one of those moms. We all can't be perfect!


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by mothersong_
*If they didn't actually tell that mom she was a lousy mom, and just whined about it here, then no real harm was done, IMO.*
I disagree with this. Obviously, based on the responses in this thread, there IS harm being done. You might not be telling the mom you observed in the mall that she is lousy to her face, but hundreds of other women here are reading that you thought she was a lousy mom. LOTS of us find ourselves reading those "I can't believe how awful this mother is" posts describing a situation that we've found ourselves in. And by "you" I mean anyone posting, not one person in particular.

More than once a perfect stranger has suggested that my baby needed to be held, fed, whatever. Well, no shit, sherlock. Telling me that my baby needs to be held while I have a grocery cart full of food, a toddler that keeps running away from me, and a six-year-old begging for four different boxes of cereal does not help me. I think the answer is just to get to a place in our own heads where we don't automatically assume that someone is neglecting her kid when we see a child crying, sitting in a carseat, stroller, or whatever.

Also, notice how all of these threads are about mothers and what mothers do wrong? It is divisive and does nothing to empower other women or create unity to "whine" or "vent" about what other mothers do wrong.


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## Shoshoni (Mar 10, 2004)

I feel that way too. I can't use a sling because it hurts, and I have a VERY hard time with my ds. I have one of those voices that can sound upset when I am not, and I get stressed out easy. I can just imagine the things people would say about me.


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## dolphinkisser (Dec 26, 2003)

As for me..i can't afford to pass judgement on anybody because i have a spirited/high maintenance /indigo daughter and she has made quite a bit of scene in public and i have had people whom i don't know come up and comment to me that i don't know how to raise my daughter. The first thing that comes to my mind when a mother is frustrated with her child and yells and loses it in public , i feel for her and understand that she must be having a tough day because that is what dd puts me through so many times.
It might be easier for parents who have calm easy children. I have been the victim of gossip and was told that i would not be a good girl scout troop leader by people who did not know me and only saw me walking my daughter down the street as she refused to go to school and was crying. Odd..i am good enough to get paid and be a special ed teacher and work with children but i am not good enough to volunteer...anyway...just want to share about how judgement has hurt me in the past.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mothra_
*LOTS of us find ourselves reading those "I can't believe how awful this mother is" posts describing a situation that we've found ourselves in.*
Why do you care, though?

I mean seriously, when I read people slagging vaccinations I don't take it the least bit personally. They are passionate about something - good for them. Since I'm totally secure in my choices it really doesn't bother me. I love reading about homebirths, and the cracks about women scheduling C-sections often make me laugh, too. And guess who scheduled her C/S?







So why should it bother anybody? I just don't get it. I feel that (and maybe I'm wrong) if you are secure in your choices and your parenting then it just shouldn't affect you.

I do totally see the point of the OP. I think a reminder to be less judgemental in our hearts is always good for us. Like someone else said, I might find myself judging another woman but lord knows I would NEVER say anything to her face. Maybe I needed to boost myself up at her expense (in my head). I work on my judgementalness alot and I have to say that in the last year that I've been on MDC I have changed alot in my inner reactions to things.

Sometimes it gets tiring being the minority in my choices out there in the "real world". The unique thing about MDC is that here, we are "normal" whereas out IRL we are not. You can complain about seeing babies in buckets left crying and how much that distresses you, b/c people here aren't going to feed you the "babies need to cry - it's good for them" line. People here will understand why it upset you. No need to bash the mother or pass judgement on her - but sharing how it made you feel is understandable IMO.

ITA with what mothersong wrote.


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## simple gifts (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mothra_
*I disagree with this. Obviously, based on the responses in this thread, there IS harm being done. You might not be telling the mom you observed in the mall that she is lousy to her face, but hundreds of other women here are reading that you thought she was a lousy mom. LOTS of us find ourselves reading those "I can't believe how awful this mother is" posts describing a situation that we've found ourselves in. And by "you" I mean anyone posting, not one person in particular.*
Maybe that is something moms reading the posts should look at in themselves. I have to think that most people here have been in bad situations with their kids, who hasn't? If reading something that someone you don't even know wrote about someone else you don't know, (and *they* don't even know) makes you feel like a lousy mom, is that really the problem of the poster?







:

I don't know, I'm just playing devil's advocate. I have never written or responded to a post like we're discussing. I do have 5 kids, some of whom are very spirited, high need, sensitive, downright difficult children. I consider myself pretty darn AP, as do most people who know me. I've had my share of horrible experiences in public, though I've never had anyone criticize me to my face.

I would never judge a person by one or even a few incidents in the grocery store or the mall. I might tell my friend about it, though. We might talk about how we would do things differently, or how glad we are that we already do things differently. Sometimes those things make us feel good about our parenting skills, help reaffirm to us that even though we are out of the mainstream, we are doing a good job. I see it as being the same thing if you come and post about it here, where you can presume that there are like minded people.

In the meantime, the woman at the mall or the grocery store has no idea. I still don't see that any harm is done, as long as you aren't telling some poor person to do a better job when you have no idea of the reality of that person's life or circumstances.

For that matter, I know people I think are truly not good mothers and they all think they are fine, and talk about how strange I am all the time. I am not offended by that. We have obviously made drastically different choices, and I wouldn't expect them to think mine are correct. I for sure don't worry about my own parenting skills based on someone else's opinion of them. I know the truth, and I know which times I really was doing the best I could, and which times I probably could have done better.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

This whole "like minded" thing-- thousands of women read these boards every day. I read things here that make me nod my head and say "right on" and then click on another thread and read something that makes me feel nauseated.

This doesn't bother me on a personal level. From time to time it does hurt when someone lets on that they don't feel as though I'm genuinely doing the best I can for my children. Reading that on a bulletin board, as in when I read comments about how women who have bottle-fed or had their children in hospitals are neglectful at best and child abusers at worst, really doesn't bother me anymore. What does bother me is the "us" vs. "them" attitude. We'll never acheive equality without unity, and in case you haven't noticed, mothers are not equal in most of Western society-- not equal to other women and certainly not equal to men.

And let's assume that woman in the mall with the screaming baby in the mall doesn't know any better. What does that say about our society that she doesn't have the resources she needs to efffectively and safely parent her child? What does that say about us if we sit here and rip her apart? What else could we do that would actually help the situation?

It hasn't happened to me here, but I can remember once logging on to a bulletin board that I relied on for support as a young, poor, clueless mother of an active child. I had just gotten home from the mall where a woman said of my one-year-old child who would not sit still in the food court, "Why don't you just spank him? Whatever you are doing obviously is not working." So I logged on and read an entire thread about how someone had gone to the mall and saw a child climbing on the tables, singing loudly, and disrupting everyone else. She seriously could have been writing about my son. The thread turned to discuss how this child was obviously not being raised in an AP environment and was probably spanked or something. Great. I felt really supported.

So is the purpose of this community to unite, empower, and support mothers while enabling them to parent with their hearts and minds against the conventional wisdom, or is it to bash other women who don't appear to make the same choices? Because I've seen both here and I prefer the former.


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## Mindful Mom (Jun 9, 2003)

Phew -- thank you all for not flaming me!! I honestly wasn't sure what type of reaction I'd get!

Quote:

_Originally posted by mothersong_
*If they didn't actually tell that mom she was a lousy mom, and just whined about it here, then no real harm was done, IMO.*
I think it has the potential to do a lot of harm. Society as a whole does a pretty crappy job of supporting AP choices, so many women come to places like MDC to seek advice and inspiration. Posts that are made for the purpose of highlighting less than ideal mothering are neither supportive nor inspirational and may actually wind up alienating people who are in dire need of communion with like-minded mommas.

Instead of coming here and complaining about "the poor crying baby in the plastic bucket", maybe we could come here and share what we did to help mom and baby. That sort of action would certainly be way more in-tune with the AP lifestyle -- don't you think?


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## simple gifts (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mothra_
*And let's assume that woman in the mall with the screaming baby in the mall doesn't know any better. What does that say about our society that she doesn't have the resources she needs to efffectively and safely parent her child? What does that say about us if we sit here and rip her apart? What else could we do that would actually help the situation?*
Just FWIW, I meant that the mom at the mall wouldn't know that I was talking about her, not that she didn't know any better ways to parent.

If I am having an issue with one of my kids in the mall, and someone sees and misinterprets what is going on, then goes home and talks about what a terrible mom I am, what do I care? I don't know I'm being talked about. If I heard her, on any given day I wouldn't even know it was me she was talking about. I know I'm not a terrible mom, and I know I'm not perfect. That about covers it, really.

Also, I really don't interfere much with other parents. If I see someone who is obviously in need of assistance, then I offer it. If I see someone screaming away at a child, or dragging a toddler along too fast, something like that, I usually don't say too much. I've lost it, I've had friends loose it, having someone in your face pointing out that you have lost it doesn't usually help. I was also with a friend who got screamed at herself, in front of her own children, for offering to help an out of control parent once. Made a lasting impression on me.

I recently gave a mom a ride that I picked up on the side of the road. It was raining, and she was walking, tugging along a toddler who was trying hard to go a different way, and carrying a baby. That same day, I walked away from a mom who was yelling at her preschooler in the grocery store, because I didn't think it was my business. I guess we all draw our own line when it comes to where to help and when to leave it.

I still don't think if I had come here and posted about how sad and irritating it was that the one mom was screaming at her child that I would have been doing that mom a great disservice. For all I know she is also a great AP mom, just having a bad moment. I didn't tell her to her face I thought she was being rude to her own child, and she would never know that I came here and said that she was.

What's more, if you should see me screaming at my own child in the mall, and come here and post that I wasn't being a good mom, I would agree with you. I wasn't being a good AP parent at that time, I wasn't working with my child the way I should. That doesn't mean I am never a good mom, does it? That doesn't mean that if you screamed at your child yesterday at the mall, and you read about me that you should feel that you are also not a good mom, does it? Or that if you weren't your best right then that you are never a good mom? IMO it shouldn't, anyway.


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## polka123 (Nov 27, 2003)

yup, you just never know what is going on with that parent @ that time.
what about when you have to have to teach your child that, " NO, you can't have everything @ the checkout counter"
(or something similar) & the kid pitches a fit ??
IMHO - raising your voice (not screaming & NOT belittling the child) is not so bad.
Saying NO sternly is not a bad parent.
I rarely let my baby cry but @ times getting from the stroller to the car can be trying when he's fussy & tired.
I think we can all decipher mistreatment from just being a parent & human at times.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Count me in as one of 'those' mothers. I just try & do the best I can, day by day. Some days are better than others.

It used to bother me a lot, reading about how bad a mother I must be, bottle feeding, not co-sleeping, etc. etc. I left the boards for a few years, in part because I just didn't need to feel bad about something else in my life. I am quite good enough at tearing myself down- don't need anybody else to do it for me. But I have become more comfortable in my own skin lately, & more comfortable about my family's parenting style (tho not entirely!). It's a learning process- for life. And I think it's a good idea to remind each other gently when we think we're being too hard on each other....... I personally do it, prolly to the annoyance of others on the boards. Oh well.


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## tofumama (Jan 20, 2004)

Wow, one more reason I like MDC! Thank you for this post! I was having a 'bad mom' day....well, who am I kidding, a bad mom week. I wouldn't have mentioned it here b/c I feared being shunned by all the perfect moms! I want to be perfect, but alas, I am human, and I can only do the best I can. Today I yelled...a couple times. I felt SO bad. My son is a highly sensitive kid (born on the solstice, during a lunar eclipse and a massive thunderstorm...) am I like that normally? No. I have more patience with my kids than I ever thought possible. Am I AP? Who knows. I hate lables, and I am a huge believer in 'take what you need, leave what you don't' I bf until my kids weren't interested anymore, around 10 mo for both. Could I have encouraged them to continue? Sure, but who are they continuing for? I don't vax, but use disposable diapers. I also recycle, compost, eat organic when I can, and love my kids to pieces. My kids have cried for extended periods of time, but not as a rule. My son is intact. Am I perfect? Hell no. Therefor, I can't judge. I never get involved in the 'flaming' here, or the debates, b/c I feel everyone has a right to their opinion, and its not how I'd like to be treated. I value this board tremendously for the wealth of info it has to offer. I don't always love the drama. But, what's life without a little drama?


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by mothersong_
*
I still don't think if I had come here and posted about how sad and irritating it was that the one mom was screaming at her child that I would have been doing that mom a great disservice. For all I know she is also a great AP mom, just having a bad moment. I didn't tell her to her face I thought she was being rude to her own child, and she would never know that I came here and said that she was.
*
You're missing my point. It isn't just about that mother, it is about all mothers. I truly feel that bashing one mother is bashing us all, especially in a forum such as this where the primary goal is supposed to be to make it easier for parents, not harder.

Honestly, the more I think about this, the more it upsets me. I've posted here off and on for over two years, but have less than a hundred posts primarily for this reason, the finger-pointing at "those" parents is ongoing and contrary to what I perceive the mission of these boards to be.


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## mamaroni (Sep 12, 2003)

Great OP! I totally agree. I do my best not to judge "those" parents when I'm out. I DO consider what a rough day they must be having. Just last Friday, I saw a dad get really frustrated with his hysterical 2 year old at Circuit City, grabbing him and kind of shaking him. I felt badly for them both--it was late, I'm sure they were both tired. Today, completely out of character for him, my 22 mo son went into complete hysterics as we pulled into the grocery store parking lot. I had to get milk, so I had to choice. I am 40 weeks preg, and it was a blizzard, and man what a struggle! All eyes were on me for 10 minutes as he screamed through the store. Very stressful.

I also agree with Piglet's post. . .

Quote:

I feel that (and maybe I'm wrong) if you are secure in your choices and your parenting then it just shouldn't affect you.
I don't care for labels and don't consider myself AP (and have always been a bit bothered by the long sig lines touting how AP one is, like it's a contest). But I'm a homebirther. I'm a breast-feeder. We eat mostly all organic/natural foods. We see a holistic ped. I selectively vax. My son is intact. We don't hit. I do my best not to raise my voice. I do cloth diaper (although I just recently switched). We co-sleep, but only sometimes. I recycle, I'm a conservationist. We don't do fast food. We have wooden toys and playsilks. I'm very practical. I shop at the resale store and buy used cloth diapers. The sling never really worked for us. But, I also live in a big suburban house, and drive a big SUV, and wear a diamond, and have a cleaning service and a part-time nanny. I get my hair high-lighted. I'm a lawyer. We have a second home on a lake. I have an occasional cocktail and a cigarette.

I guess my point is that it's tough to label people, although "we" do it all the time.

What I do know is that I love my kids more than anything and am doing my very best to raise them. I'm really secure with the choices dh and I make, and how we're raising the kids. (oh and everyone is always telling me how great my kids are!







)

I hope I haven't strayed from the OP, but I've also struggled with/wondered about this since I've been at MDC.


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## simple gifts (Feb 27, 2003)

I'm not missing your point, I just don't agree with you.









I can see what you are saying if moms are tearing each other down IRL over these things. I agree that moms in general have a hard road to hoe, and are more in need of encouragement than harrassment.

I just don't think that having people post about anonymous moms (or dads) doing things they perceive as wrong, or non-AP or whatever is all that counter-productive. In fact, I think that if a person is inclined to vent about that kind of stuff, on line is a far better place than their playgoup. If I vent to my best friend about someone in the local mall, the possibility that someone will actually know that mom and she will get her feelings hurt is far more real than people complaining online.

Should we not ever talk about people we see or what we see that offends or irritates us? I don't know. That seems to be what you are saying, and although I see the point, I think it is unrealistic to think that no one will ever comment on poor parenting on a parenting board.

And does that differ from the mission of these boards? I don't know that either. To me the boards are what the users want them to be. If lots of users like coming here to vent, then maybe that is a mission of this board. To be honest, I hadn't noticed it until this thread. I suppose I just skim right over that stuff because it doesn't interest me much.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I get upset when I think how people are probably judging me. I get really stressed when I am out alone with both kids. I am just a high strung person. So when I am at some place like today at the chiropractors office (they both had to go) and I am trying to get Olivia's snowsuit on while Elijah is over by the coffee maker attempting to pour some, so I'm putting Olivia down and running over to stop him and by the time I go back she has toddled off down the hall, so I run after her and when I get back Elijah has dumped the box of toys in the waiting room. By this time I am stressed! So I am telling him to pick up the toys, Elijah listen to me pick up the toys, pick up the toys right now, PICK UP THE TOYS. Olivia is trying to run away from me and swatting my face. Olivia don't hit mommy, Olivia stop that, Olivia stop that - getting very stressed and probably looking incredibly pissed off. Finally get her into her snowsuit, pick up the damn toys myself (if you know how to force a spirited 3 year old to pick up toys let me know), find Elijah over by the complementary fruit tray biting 3 different apples. Grab him a bit yoo roughly by the arm, take him over, throw out apples, make him apologize to receptionists for wasting the fruit, get his jacket and shoes on. Stick her in the sling, grab his hand, head out the door. And the second it shuts I am sure people are thinking or talking about what a spaz i am and how i am so stressed out, I shouldn't have kids or something, or worse, thinking I'm abusive. All because my kids are both spirited live wires who don't stand still for two seconds. I'm sure there have been many comments about me even though I consider myself a good mom.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by mothersong_
*Should we not ever talk about people we see or what we see that offends or irritates us? I don't know... I think it is unrealistic to think that no one will ever comment on poor parenting on a parenting board.*
I think it's the tone of the threads that is the problem. A lot of times it does feel very judgemental and self-aggrandizing.

I agree that it's unrealistic to expect people not to talk about it but I have to question their motives, sometimes. I think some people just like to bash "mainstream" moms because it makes them feel good.


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

I am glad mamas have been able to express themselves so well here. I have been feeling this, too. I have a daughter who I adopted, couldn't induce lactation, she has trouble with her tummy and her foster family found a formula that works for her before we adopted her, and we continue to use that (gasp!) formula. I still sting from a remark that was made somewhere on the boards about formula maybe being as bad as blue kool-aid. There is a lot of judgement here.

And if my baby falls asleep in the carseat, I am not waking her up to put her in the sling so I can look "in tune" with her. She'd be pissed.

And another thing....no, actually, I am done for now.









L.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*Why do you care, though?

I mean seriously, when I read people slagging vaccinations I don't take it the least bit personally. They are passionate about something - good for them. Since I'm totally secure in my choices it really doesn't bother me. I love reading about homebirths, and the cracks about women scheduling C-sections often make me laugh, too. And guess who scheduled her C/S?







So why should it bother anybody? I just don't get it. I feel that (and maybe I'm wrong) if you are secure in your choices and your parenting then it just shouldn't affect you.*























Exactly.

Lord knows I'm sure my neighbors (and lord knows who else) judges me all the time for my choices (I'm having a homebirth, for one, nursing so long, for another...)








so what?

I do wince when I see kids at the park holding *Goldfish*. But that's just me. I'm allowed to think it's gross. Just like everyone else around me is allowed to have their opinions about me.







(Just don't tell me to my face... because you are going to get an earful!)

Even some of my best AP mama friends offer their kids "junk" on occassion -







Something I'd never do - but they are still GREAT mamas! (And I would NEVER tell them to their face. But it is my personal pet peeve. Soda? {Shiver.} ) Nobody is perfect. I'm not perfect. We are all doing the best we can.

But I could really care LESS what a complete stranger at the airport or mall thought of my parenting style.

Heavenly, I really sympathize with you (and others) who get so caught up in what other people are thinking. That's really self-torture and awful to live with. But you are just adding a burden to yourself. You really don't KNOW what they are thinking. Again, you have to remind yourself you ARE a great mama and doing the best you can at the moment.

And look, IF your kids are fussing (and what child doesn't) then you deal with it as best you can and everyone else can go jump a bridge!

Leatherette, yeah, I know there is a lot a judgement against FF and that's a shame. I don't share that view. And this is coming from someone who BF her son for 3.5 yrs. It's just not MY hot button. FF doesn't equal bad mothering to me at all.









I like what Mothersong is saying.

Personally, I strive not to be judgemental. (For example, I am all pro natural birth, but I don't feel one bit harsh against moms who choose epidurals or had Csecs). Who the hell am I? (But Goldfish or McDonald's, sorry, yuck.) :LOL


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## Nurturing Mama (Nov 11, 2003)

I almost feel like it isn't my place to comment, since I only have like 10 or so posts myself, but I lurk and learn alot here, so here is my take.

Even though it shouldn't matter how other people are judging us, it is still hurtful. I believe that all mothers love their children infinitely and are doing their very best at raising them. Mothering is such an important and personal job that it hurts when somebody suggests that we are doing it wrong. I have been hurt by comments made on these boards, and by comments in real life. Even if we don't agree with what a mother is doing, I think that we should remember that she is doing her best.

I know a mom in real life that visited these boards on my suggestion, and she was quickly turned off by attachment parenting because of the judgements that she found here. She felt overwhelmed by all of the things that she was doing "wrong" and I think it was easier for her to label attachment parenting as militant than to examine her own parenting choices in light of new information. Of course, turning away from attachment parenting was her choice, but I wonder how often that has happened with other moms?

You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. If we can be gentle and gracious in our dealings with other parents, maybe they can be more accepting of our choices, and even learn something from us.









I do understand the desire to vent, but I agree with Mindful Mom,

Quote:

Instead of coming here and complaining about "the poor crying baby in the plastic bucket", maybe we could come here and share what we did to help mom and baby.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Heavenly- hey, that's my life you're describing!!!







I really do mean that. Holy cow!

Leatherette, I once read where someone said that mothers who don't breastfeed their children should give them up for adoption to someone who would.







As an adoptive mum I'll bet you appreciate the irony of that one! Shortly thereafter was when I quit coming here for a while. So I guess I do think that all the snarking does hurt, but I don't want to be in a position where I'm telling someone else what they can say, KWIM?







:


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

I totally agree that we should not care too much about what others think. I feel secure about my choices as a parent, but sometimes there are situations where it is not your choice, like if you want to breastfeed but can't (it happens, and not just in adoption!), have to choose between family bed and your marriage, or have a kid who just hates snuggling or being in a sling, or if you're out and your kid is starving, and the diaper bag is perfectly packed except for the "healthy organic snack" you left on the counter because the baby was wailing, and someone offers you Goldfish, those are the situations I'm talking about!

Although McD's is a sore point for me, mostly because we are vegetarian, and I'm sure they have found a way to put beef in the milkshakes,even.....







: But I wouldn't write a thread complaining about people who eat at McD's. What's the point?

L.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Leatherette_
*but sometimes there are situations where it is not your choice, like if you want to breastfeed but can't (it happens, and not just in adoption!), have to choose between family bed and your marriage, or have a kid who just hates snuggling or being in a sling, or if you're out and your kid is starving, and the diaper bag is perfectly packed except for the "healthy organic snack" you left on the counter because the baby was wailing, and someone offers you Goldfish, those are the situations I'm talking about!
*
Me: wanted to breastfeed but couldn't
Me: can't do family bed due to being a light sleeper and insomniac
Me: DD hates snuggling due to sensory issues (although has made vast improvement) and would not tolerate the sling
Me: maybe not healthy organic but I usually have pretzels!

But I must say this: even though when I first came to MDC I was very put off by the judgmentalism and was absolutely attacked for driving an SUV, these types of sweeping generalizations do not bother me anymore. I am very secure in the reasons I have done what I do and I really consider gentle discipline to be the hallmark of what I am as a mother, not the fact that my daughter slept in a crib.


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## misfit (Apr 2, 2003)

I come here because I don't really belong anywhere IRL. But I don't always belong here either. I don't call myself AP. I don't practice any particular method of motherhood, I just mother.

I homebirth. And use disposable diapers. I breastfeed. And eat McDonalds. I grow organic vegetables. And buy supermarket meat. I buy my children cotton clothes. And plastic toys. I forbid Nintendo. And allow TV. I read to my children. And send them to school. I do not use some vaccinations. And I do use others. My babies slept with me in bed. But not in slings. I carried them in my arms. And in "buckets".

In some ways I am like many of you. In other ways so different. I usually feel at home here. But sometimes I feel like I should not be allowed.

I understand how strongly you feel about your views. I feel strongly about mine. I feel sad when I see small children drinking diet soda, or getting slapped, or watching R-rated movies...

I feel sad. But I dare not judge. And I do not want to be judged.

What we all, everyone of us, has in common here is that in some way we are willing to think for ourselves, to go our own way, to break the "rules".

How very kind of us it would be to be respectful of how, just as we ourselves think differently, so does every one else in MDC. And the practice you disparage may be one your fellow mother supports. And she is still a very, very good mother. And she would like to know that you think so too.

Thank you Mindful Mother for opening this door. I am so glad to see it discussed. Maybe I'll feel a little less lonely now.









But always, the misfit.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

If they didn't actually tell that mom she was a lousy mom, and just whined about it here, then no real harm was done, IMO.
I can hear the point of your whole post mothersong, but personally I disagree with most of it, ecspecialy the part quoted above. I believe there is something inherently bad about speaking negatively about people. It is a spiritual thing that most people simply do not see or they disagree that it is wrong. Fine. everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. Personally, I think there are better, less negative ways to "vent" than posting on a public board where so many read....
I understand the motives of the people that do it- they are not bad- I just usually do, and hope that I am always able to avoid doing it, personally.

Judgement of others in general also goes contrary to my spiritual belief, to look at something someone is doing and form an opinion of what I think of them....

I know there will always be people judging. every single action that I do will be disagreed with by somebody, somewhere. I am confident in my choices (that they are thought out and for good reason), for the things I do in a level headed manner, I am confident that when I lose my cool it all part of the struggle, the growth process to fix my charachter traits (another spiritual concept). I am not "perfect" by anyone's standards and certainly not my own, so of course I do not think I am alwas doing the right thing, making the right choice, etc. I judge myself, other people judge me, it is all part of life. Seeing the judgement on the screen is no more hurtful than imagining it in my head, I think.


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## muse (Apr 17, 2002)

Thankyou for starting this topic and thankyou Mothra for writing my own thoughts precisely.

I come to this website because there is such a vast wealth of information and experience here. But this has to be the most judgemental of discussion boards I've visited. Judgements coming from an "AP'er" are no less harmful than from the mainstream.

Here's the thing for me. There is no such thing as a "bad" mother. There is a bad social system, bad government policy, bad educational systems, bad media, bad lack of economic and social support for families....you get my drift. Every mother is doing her very best within her own circumstances. The pressure of all the above influences is immense. We should be supporting other mothers and condemning and getting active within the system which makes mothering so bloody hard.

The other thing for me is there is no "right" way to parent. While I do adhere to many of the principles of AP, I hate labels, and I respect every parents' right to make their own choices. My son is no superior to my friend's son who watches TV all the time because his mother has a chronic illness. Her son is no superior to mine because I give my son the occasional cookie in desparate moments while she uses purely local organic foods. We are all doing our best.


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## tofumama (Jan 20, 2004)

God, I love you guys!!! I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders knowing that some of the moms here (fake gasp) go to McD's! And use disposables! I have lurked for so long, and now I am free!!! Just being silly. But in all seriousness, you not only hurt others when you judge, you hurt yourself. Often times what bothers us about others, is something we don't like about ourselves. I don't know if its 'wrong' to come here and comment on something you've seen out IRL being done by a parent...if you are feeling upset by it, or it is triggering someting in you and you need support, I would say by all means come here and get the support (isn't that what this board is for?) I guess it all depends on how its being brought up. I think Mothering is THE hardest job on the planet, but the one with the biggest payoff, and we all do the best we can. I hope we can keep this thread going for us 'less than perfect moms' LOL, you know what? Reguardless what we do or don't do, as long as we parent from our hearts, we will always be perfect in our childrens eyes.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Beloved Bird, I just wanted to thank you for what you just said, as reading this post brought back every memory of everything I'd been taught about lashon hora (I think it translates to "evil language"; talking badly about someone/thing). I specifically remember asking "Is is still lashon hora if the person it's about doesn't hear it?" and "Is it lashon hora if it's the truth?" and getting the answers "It's still hurting the person saying it as well as the person who *does* hear it" and "It's _only_ lashon hora if it's the truth."

I try to be helpful. I've walked out the door many times with a packed diaper bag and left a baggie of pretzels on the counter. I've brought a bag full of diapers and no covers, and had to ask my sister to go buy a pack of sposies. I've wheeled a crying child around a store in a cart, begging to be picked up but I was tired and in pain and we desperately needed toilet paper or something else. I've definately been there!

I have also asked parents if I could give their child a pretzel when I had plenty and their toddler was shrieking, or offered a tissue or a bandaid to a mommy with a child in distress. Once I forgot to put gas in the car and pulled off at the first exit I could find, only to discover that they didn't have a pay-at-pump option. It was *freezing* and windy that day, and after I filled the tank I was just getting ready to wake my sleeping son when a woman with two kids in an SUV asked if she could watch Eli while I paid and I could do the same for her. She had also planned her exits poorly and needed gas but couldn't make it to the next pay-at-pump. I was eternally greatful to her.

We should really make an effort at this, I think we could really change the world for the better if more moms stopped to think of ways we could help one another out. I think I'll go start a thread on that now.


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## Mindful Mom (Jun 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by famousmockngbrd_
> *I think it's the tone of the threads that is the problem. A lot of times it does feel very judgemental and self-aggrandizing.
> 
> That's EXACTLY my point! It's not so much that people come here and share something that bothered them, it's more the way it's done. There's something very judgemental (heck, downright toxic and MEAN) about posts that equate formula feeding with child abuse or that describe CIO as barbaric and sick. I am anti-CIO -- but here's my story. When Ean was about 9 months old he was still waking to nurse every 1 to 2 hours. I was exahusted to the point that I FELL ASLEEP DRIVING!! Fortunately it was only for an instant and we didn't have an accident. But, I was so frightened by the experience that I agree to try CIO, figuring that it would be less harmful than a car accident. We did it for one night and stopped because we didn't like how it made any of us feel. Was trying CIO a mistake? Perhaps. Was it barbaric and sick -- ABSOLUTELY NOT!! But -- what if I had logged on the following morning and read that post? I would have come here already feeling vunerable and been crushed to see my mothering described as barbaric and sick!!
> ...


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Whats wrong with Goldfish?


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

Satan makes them.

L.


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## Scout (Jan 23, 2002)

I only have a minute, but I feel compelled to join in here. I have really enjoyed reading all of these posts, especially because this is a topic I've been mulling over in my head a lot lately. I feel too "mainstream" at times; other times I feel like a raging radical. But all along, I am just being me. I can't -- nor do I want to -- fit into everyone's preconceived notion of what a "good" mother is, or what an "AP' mother is. And while I feel strongly about breastfeeding (if it's possible), someone else may feel just as strongly about not feeding their kids goldfish crackers ( "Fishy crackers" are a frequent snack in our diaper bag. You know, they come in colors now.) It all comes down to following your instincts and doing what works for you and your family at this particular time in your life. I know some *really* good moms who have let their kids cry it out at one time or another. Or who snapped at their kids while waiting in the ubiquitous 28-person-long checkout (oh wait, that was me!). We all have our "lines" that we won't -- or don't want to -- cross, but those lines vary dramatically from family to family.

I have to relay a quick incident: I was running out of the grocery store last year with a toddler and a bag of groceries in arms -- both very heavy -- and toddler was slipping out of my arms. I'm sure it looked like like I was carrying him by the neck, lilke a football, but he was fine, not fussing or being harmed. I kept running, and I got the *nastiest* look from another woman. I remember this was not long after that woman was videotaped hitting her child in the parking lot. Anyway, this whole thread reminded me of that. How things are not always as they appear.

Sometimes I hesitate before posting here because I'm afraid I'm either not telling enough or telling too much. But I refuse to tout a list of my beliefs and practices -- it just doesn't feel right to me --or proselytize about why friut-juice-sweetened crackers are the only way to go. You see, right now I feel obligated to qualify myself: sure we eat fishy crackers, but we never eat at McDonald's. Do they cancel each other out? Does that make it better?

I hope I'm not straying too far from the original post, or sounding too cynical. You all said some really great things here. I especially agree with feeling secure with your parenting choices. That really makes all the difference. Being a mom requires such self-confidence! It has made me a more confident person in other areas of my life as well.

Misfit, you sound a lot like me! Can we be misfits together?

And mamaroni, I too enjoy an occasional cocktail and cigarette (home-fermented gin and all-natural organic roll-your-own tobacco, of course! :LOL ) Sarcasm doesn't ususally carry over too well online, but I gave it a shot.

Okay, I said I only had a minute. Apparently I had 20.

~Scout


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## simple gifts (Feb 27, 2003)

Hey, I started going to LLL meetings when my 16yo dd was born. Back then, Goldfish were considered one of the top healthy snacks. Baked, not fried, a healthy choice, and definitely a sign that you were an AP mom.

Also, I certainly am aware of the concept of Lashon Hora, and hold myself to that, since it is my personal religious belief. However, just because I wouldn't talk about someone doesn't mean that I don't understand people who do.

Perhaps it's just fatigue. My oldest child is almost 26, and my youngest is almost 2. I've been an AP parent from the beginning, back in the 70's when it was considered almost abusive to breastfeed, when there wasn't an LLL group to be found, when my mother thought child protection should be called because I let my child into my bed, and every single person I met rolled their eyes at my cloth diapers.

As time has gone on, and I've had more kids, I've added even more to my AP style. Homebirthing, homeschooling, non-vaxing, all things that give mainstream people the heebie jeebies. Y'all could probably tell me to my face that I wasn't a good mother and it wouldn't faze me much. I am so used to hearing how I am ruining my kids for life, it seems normal.

And perhaps that's why I don't see talking about it online as such a terrible thing. I really wish some of the people who have felt obligated to tell me what a terrible mother I am, or what damage I am doing would have just gone and complained to some online forum instead of to my face. That way we'd have both been happy.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

I think this is a great thread.

I been a member of MDC for a long time and I have twice taken breaks away from MDC having been turned off by way to much judgementalism and controvery, but eventually I overlook than and come back because there are so many wonderful things about MDC.

A while back there was a big thread where everyone posted the non-AP things they did. I was amazed that even the people here I thought were "perfect" were not. That really opened my eyes and made me realize we are all human. We are all making the choices that fit our lifestyle and our children the best. That doesn't make any of us better than the other.

I have friends IRL who do CIO, who formula feed, etc. . . and I don't care. They love their kids just as much as I do mine. No doubt about it. They are not abusive, evil or cruel parents. They are not detached parents either. They're children are just as lovely as mine.


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## sarahbay (Oct 30, 2003)

Tricia,

What a great thread! I would never look down on you or any mom for that matter upon seeing you for a mere 2 seconds. I too have heard other AP moms condone strollers and the like and say the feel bad seeing babes like that. Most moms who do not AP just don't know there is another option.

I'm sure for the most part you are a model example to show "those moms" who don't know that you can parent in a different way and it works great!

I was a weirdo co-sleeping, toddler nursing, CDing, non-circ, no vacc, mom and my dd who is 7 and ds who is 4 have grown to be loving, caring, open, interested little humans.

Having the privledge to hang out with a bunch of "normal" moms opened up my eyes to how few we really are. We have been Enlightened to the reality that it's ok to let baby come first.

Everyone else is still trained from birth to believe that old adage of "don't spoil the baby"

If those who looked at you thought anything at all it was more like "Oh that poor mama!"

It's hard to be a mom. One of the least paid but most rewarded and undervalued jobs! Most who have been parents understand that there are those trying times in amy parent's life! The Grocery store hits high on the list for most I know!!!


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## Benjismom (Aug 24, 2002)

I am glad to see this issue explored and discussed openly because it is something that has bothered me and prevented me from being as involved as I would like to be here at MDC. I have learned so much lurking and occasionally posting on these boards. I have encountered posts with which I violently disagree (especially in Activism) and have had my horizons expanded. I have learned of the joys of cloth diapering , my new hobby and obsession.

But sometimes there are posts that just seem purposelessly mean and designed to pat the poster on the back for being so much better than everyone else. This drains me, personally, because being less judgmental is something I'm always working on in myself. I also wish the energy were spent on organizing something that lifts up all parents--we sure need that right now in this country.

The post that upset me so much was by someone who was angry that a person in her life (SIL, perhaps, or friend of a friend) kept her older child in group child care when his younger sibling was born. "Why on earth would a person do that?" was followed by a general anti-group-child-care harange and lots of chiming in about what a bad mother she was.

As the mother of two premature babies, both of whom needed extensive intervention around feeding even after coming home from the hospital, and the mother of an older child who absolutely loves and thrives at group child care (which would be a hell of a lot more interesting IMO than sitting around watching mom and the lactation consultant), I wondered why on earth someone would post something like that. It was just spiteful and mean, and of course designed to give the poster an opportunity to say, well I did just fine juggling two (three, four, etc.) kids and completing an ironman triathlon while doing all the cooking, cleaning, etc.

There are many reasons why a mom might feel like leaving an older child in group child care is the best decision for the family or even for that child. We often don't know all the factors at play in a given situation--a point earlier posters have ably made--and so what is gained by judging and on incomplete information at that? It's not so much that posts like this make me feel insecure about my choices--they don't--but that they are pointless and mean. That shouldn't be what MDC is about.

Beth, Mom to Benji and Maggie


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

you mean, 'ap true confessions', dotcom? <g>
uh, i think i remember that thread.

personally, i'm with mothersong. where else to vent? and i've been doing this a long time, too (tho' not as long as she- only 17 years.) i can live with someone thinking me feeding my kid meat is a health calamity, or that the monthly mcdonald's trip is giving them a heart attack, & still understand the *argh!* kind of frustration that leads to these posts. it DOES drive me crazy when someone utterly ignores their hungry newborn in wal-mart. (on the other hand, if someone is obviously having a rough day, i've been there enough to be the soul of loving support. big difference imho between getting judgemental on someone who is at their breaking point, & someone leisurely looking at makeup for half an hour not breaking a sweat while baby loses a lung screaming from starvation.)

modeling by having moms admire my new native carrier (and usually confessing that that damned nojo at babies r us kills their back) seems to be of more positive use than condemning someone (ironically enough) for coming here & venting. there are a million online sites & playgroup buddies that will support you in your 'you know, bfing just didn't feel right to me, so i stopped' rationale. we've been over the fact that those of us who consider ourselves militant bfers are NOT judging ffers who adopted, had reconstructive surgery, breast cancer, etc. can there be one place we can just rip our hair out & go 'ACCCKKKK!'?

i can be a lot more positive irl if i feel like i am not *completely* insane for making people's eyebrows raise when they ask, 'so is he off the bottle?' ('he was never on.') you know, my nextdoor neighbors chase their little girl with a wooden spoon! and irl, i don't think they are terrible parents. but my god, it's nice to have a place to say, 'holy shit! do you believe this!' irl, i can be less abrasive if i can just get it out of my system.

so, in advance: if you see me bitching, it wasn't you. really. i'm 99.9% sure. ok? (and irl, when you see me with my eyes rolled up in the back of my head trying to convince a recalcitrant three yr old & teething, screaming 20 m old to PLEASE let go of the 9 dollar balloon from the mkt florist's dept, and you decide i am a mean mama who doesn't respect children's choices, please, dear god, complain here instead of giving me the stinkeye or worse!)


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## Benjismom (Aug 24, 2002)

Hmm . . . I didn't hear anyone urging that they should be able to come to MDC and be supported because they tried breastfeeding but quit because it didn't feel right to them. Perhaps I missed something.

Beth, Mom to Benji and Maggie


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by suseyblue_
*you mean, 'ap true confessions', dotcom? <g>*
I think that was it. Hmmm. . .I'm going to see if I can search it out and bump it back up - not sure if that's possible when it's so old.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

it was from before the boards broke down, but i've no doubt it has been resurrected in some form or another since then. (but i started it, dammit! it's mine! MINE!) uh, sometimes i get a little freaked when i think of the *3000+* posts i had, gone forever.

suse


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## Benjismom (Aug 24, 2002)

I was thinking more about this thread and I think the difference between me and some of the mamas that are defending the venting is that I find that in myself once I start judging in one place, I kind of give myself permission to be more judgmental overall. So then it leads generally to more judgmentalism on my part, which I'm trying to avoid. Whereas I am hearing that for some of you ,expressing your feelings here is a sort of safety valve that helps you be less judgmental (or less expressive of it) in real life. This is food for thought for me since it's not how I am.

Still thinking

Beth, Mom to Benji and Maggie


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Benjismom_
*I was thinking more about this thread and I think the difference between me and some of the mamas that are defending the venting is that I find that in myself once I start judging in one place, I kind of give myself permission to be more judgmental overall. So then it leads generally to more judgmentalism on my part, which I'm trying to avoid. Whereas I am hearing that for some of you ,expressing your feelings here is a sort of safety valve that helps you be less judgmental (or less expressive of it) in real life. This is food for thought for me since it's not how I am.*
What I have found is that I sooo hate the judgementalism I find here that when I feel myself start to make a snap judgement IRL I realize I'm doing exactly what I don't like to see others do and it humbles me and reminds me to take off the judgement hat.


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Just for the record, I doubt I would have thought you were one of "those" mothers. You DID tend to their needs as soon as you could. The only mothers I would even think "please pick that baby up" about would be those that continue to do all of their shopping with a screaming baby in a car seat. You know, the ones that won't even make eye contact with their baby or try to sooth them with their voice. They totally ignore the child. Sorry, that does bug me.


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## simple gifts (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by suseyblue_
*so, in advance: if you see me bitching, it wasn't you. really. i'm 99.9% sure. ok?*
I've been thinking about this thread, and I've decided that this is why venting online doesn't bother me. When I see threads with people complaining, to me it is the action, not the person, they are complaining about.

So, for instance, if someone talks about seeing someone with a screaming child in the grocery store, it isn't so much that mom that they are talking about, it is the letting the child scream part. That mom could be a perfectly wonderful mother, and the poster doesn't know it or not. In fact, I assume the poster doesn't care. If that mom *is* wonderful, certainly there are enough other moms who just let their child scream. That's why it bothers people enough to vent in the first place.

If I read about someone who saw someone else letting their baby scream in the grocery, I don't think about the last time my baby screamed in the grocery store and think it could be me. Even though my kids have screamed for different reasons in the store, I know that I am not one of those moms who will just let a baby cry and cry without doing something about it. If it happens to look like that to other people now and again, it still isn't the way it is. I don't identify with moms who can ignore their screaming children, so I figure it doesn't matter.

Nor do I think that the poster thinks that particular mom is a horrible, terrible mother. Maybe that's how it comes out, but really they don't know that mom or have any idea what kind of mother she is. Everyone who has a child knows that things happen sometimes despite our best efforts. They just hate the idea of screaming babies, and that incident brought it out.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by suseyblue_
we've been over the fact that those of us who consider ourselves militant bfers are NOT judging ffers who adopted, had reconstructive surgery, breast cancer, etc. can there be one place we can just rip our hair out & go 'ACCCKKKK!'?
Exactly. When I hear people complain about how "judgmental" everybody here is, I wonder how many other online forums they've hung out on. Yes, we have our weirdos here, our extremists, our post-before-you-think types....but I honestly think it is unfair to decide that MDC is so judgemental. I really have to say, and I mean this in a loving way, if reading strangers venting online upsets you that much, you should really do some soul-searching to find out why you need that sort of validation? Overall, I see FAR more loving support here than nasty judgementalness (is that a word?







). How many "I'm a bad mama threads" pop up here where everybody reassures the OP that she is just a normal mama having a normal mama moment. Where are the judgmental comments then?

And I really, really feel the need to address the signature thing. I have heard a number of times how some people interpret that as bragging about how AP you are. Well again, I ask what are your own issues? Because I don't see it that way at all. If your friend ran a 20 k marathon and got a shirt attesting to that, would you consider her wearing it to be bragging? Would you feel "insulted" because YOU can't run a 20 k marathon? Of course not! You're proud of your friend for achieving something that a) meant a lot to her and b) required a whole lot of effort. And since you could care less about running a 20 k marathon the fact that you are currently physically incapable of doing that doesn't make you instantly feel like a failure, does it?

I actually got in a huge flame war on a mainstream board once b/c a FF mom decided my "proud BFing" signature was somehow implying that she had nothign to be proud of for going right to formula. Well, dammit, exclusively BFing a child for six months was something I DID have to work hard at, in terms of battling a society where it's normal to feed pudding to a 3 month old and nobody has ever HEARD of a baby who has never had a bottle. I had stupid docs telling me, in my deeply emotional post-partum state, that I was going to have to supplement b/c my healthy, peeing-and-pooping like a racehorse, 4 day old baby was "losing too much weight". I'm proud of those things but it sure doesn't mean that I'm slagging anybody who used a bottle! So when you read a signature, why can't you just be happy and proud for that mama that she did the research, battled the odds, and accomplished something she wanted to. I could care less if her goals aren't the same as mine.

There, got that off my chest!

Quote:

_Originally posted by mothersong_
When I see threads with people complaining, to me it is the action, not the person, they are complaining about.
EXACTLY.


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## MaShroom (Jan 25, 2003)

thank you piglet.









funny i should happen onto this thread this evening. thus far, i have had a week that would make a saint scream obscenties. i have been far from the loving ap mama that i strive to be and more like mommie dearest.

am i a bad mother? no. would someone say i was a bad mother judging by some of the incidents that we have had the misfortune of experiencing this week? ooooooh yeah.

all in all, this is a really supportive community. everyone b!tches from time to time. this is really one of the least judgemental online communies that i have ever come across. i wish rl was like it is here. if someone does say something that might come across as judgemental there is always someone near to give an alternate pov and a gentle reminder that we don't walk in one another's shoes. i have yet to see offense taken at such a reminder.

i think my point is here that we all have our moments and we all do the best we can.


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## MelMel (Nov 9, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Benjismom_
*I was thinking more about this thread and I think the difference between me and some of the mamas that are defending the venting is that I find that in myself once I start judging in one place, I kind of give myself permission to be more judgmental overall. So then it leads generally to more judgmentalism on my part, which I'm trying to avoid. Whereas I am hearing that for some of you ,expressing your feelings here is a sort of safety valve that helps you be less judgmental (or less expressive of it) in real life. This is food for thought for me since it's not how I am.

Still thinking

Beth, Mom to Benji and Maggie*
I get what you are saying, but it took me like 10 reads before I did!:LOL you are talking around and over my head! that was a meaty paragraph (dense with muscle mass and takes a while to digest







) and no, I am not a vegetarian

:LOL :LOL :LOL


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Mindful Mom-I tend to agree with you. These boards, and others, can seem judegmental sometimes. But I really think a lot of this stems from the perils of email and posts-you can't always read tone. And we all don't really *know* each other and each other's situations.

I've only been a mom for 2 years now (with my 2nd child on the way), but I've learned in that short amount of time that I was being judegmental about some other mothering choices.

I have a good example (and I'm not sure if this is a bit OT, or not). I was at our local park about 1 year ago. I saw a middle-aged woman with 1 child on the swing. I saw standing near her, a young-ish, college-aged woman talking to a child in a stroller. By the way they were interacting and speaking to each other, I gathered that the young woman was the older woman's nanny. I started getting all my judegmental thoughts about nanny-care, about people hiring others to take care of their kids (there I live neighbors on an affluent area where there are lots of nannies). Two seconds later, I saw these women and children getting ready to leave the park. I saw the mother go to the stroller and hoist/carry a young girl out who obviously was profoundly disabled. The "nanny" helped the woman's toddler off the swing.

I ended up meeting this woman later that same week. Turns out her child is brain damaged. She also had a young toddler.

Don't know if this makes sense. Just was a glaring lesson for me about judging a mother's choices. We never know WHY someone makes the choices they do, minor or major decisions. And just taking a few seconds to remember that and forget the judgement has really helped me grow.


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## muse (Apr 17, 2002)

And if the mother in question had in fact been hiring a nanny so she could resume her important career doing cancer research, would she be any less of a good mother? Is the father less of a father if he goes back to work and hires outside childcare?

It's not about well, we don't know the unique situation, maybe they are doing their best to adhere to *our* views of "right parenting", it's that each is following their own path of parenting, there's no one right way, and it is not our place to judge.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*

And I really, really feel the need to address the signature thing. I have heard a number of times how some people interpret that as bragging about how AP you are. Well again, I ask what are your own issues? Because I don't see it that way at all. If your friend ran a 20 k marathon and got a shirt attesting to that, would you consider her wearing it to be bragging? Would you feel "insulted" because YOU can't run a 20 k marathon? Of course not! You're proud of your friend for achieving something that a) meant a lot to her and b) required a whole lot of effort. And since you could care less about running a 20 k marathon the fact that you are currently physically incapable of doing that doesn't make you instantly feel like a failure, does it?*
See, I would ask the converse question: Why do people feel a need to announce that their child is "cd'd, non-vaxed, non-circ'd, EBF'd, worn, co-sleeping, all-organic vegan"? I can understand being proud of the fact that you're EBF; I'm rather proud of it myself. I'm honestly impressed with myself every time I get Eli situated over my giant belly and nurse him becasue that's what he needs. But I don't feel a need to say that in my sig file because to me that's just begging for approval. I can't see any reason to put into a signature that my kids aren't vaccinated except to say "I do more AP stuff than you". It doesn't seem to me to be a matter of pride, but hubris. Subtle distinction, perhaps, but that's how I see it.

So no, it doesn't make me feel like a failure, but it does make me roll my eyes a bit. We all come here for validation and support because we're making decisions that are different from the "mainstream"; do we really need to prove just how different we are, or to get special recognition? Those signature files don't make me think "What a dedicated, thoughtful mamma"; they make me wonder why some people feel a need to prove just how different they are, as if just having a quote or a picture of their child isn't enough to "prove" that they belong here.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*I really have to say, and I mean this in a loving way, if reading strangers venting online upsets you that much, you should really do some soul-searching to find out why you need that sort of validation?*
I can't speak for the OP, but I will for myself. The judgementalism doesn't insult me or make me feel bad about my parenting choices. That's not why it bothers me. It bothers me because sometimes it's just pointlessly negative and it just brings down the general helpful - happy nature of the boards. I'm not sure that makes sense, but if I read a thread like that it just makes me feel negative-icky and that's not why I enjoy being a part of MDC.

I mean I understand when someone posts and says I saw a child being hit in the grocery store, should I have done something, or I did this and was it the right thing? Those post I think are helpful and important.

But a post that says this kid was in their baby bucket and the mother ignored him blah blah blah - how does that do anyone any good? I guess I don't see any inherent value in complaining about someone I don't know and don't want to help. Why come here just to bitch about a stranger? What is the purpose of the vent if not to point fingers and say - we'll we're all better than that mother?

Maybe we all just view MDC in different ways. For me this is a place to support and help mothers. I come here both to get advice and to give it - not to put other mothers down because they don't do the same things I do.

I also think that as a mother of three I've been knocked off my high horse enough to not ride it as often. My kids are all so different and the way I parent each one is so different because of that - that I don't believe that AP techniques must be followed to the letter in order for one to qualify as a good mom.

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_ *
Overall, I see FAR more loving support here than nasty judgementalness (is that a word?







).*
This is usually true and that is why I love it here







, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be better.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Well, you raise some very good points, eilonwy.









Your post made me realize, that this is perhaps more of what we are talking about. Because both you and I are making assumptions about what lies behind the sig.

I'm assuming that people are just proud of the choices they've made (b/c IME, those who choose to go against the norm tend to have a harder time making and defending those choices) and just pleased that they can announce that they cosleep, EBF or whatever and not feel an outcast or abnormal.

You're assuming that they have some need to brag about how AP they are, like it's a contest.

Hey, maybe you're right and I'm wrong. But it just reminds me of this whole thread being about making assumptions. Why jump to the "nasty" one first? Whether it's "wow, she must be ignoring her baby deliberately, what a bad mother" versus "maybe she's having a bad day, wonder if I can help". OR "why does she have to brag about not vaxing in her sig - she must think she's so great!" versus "hey, she's proud of making a tough decision that went against the grain, and probably so happy to find a place where she can announce it with pride and not be flamed".

The big philosophical question here is: whether one is the "optimist" interpreter or the "pessimist" interpreter, does that reflect more on us and our own personal issues? or on the person we're judging?


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## mamaroni (Sep 12, 2003)

I think I may have originally bashed the sig lines. I was going to respond to Piglet's point about the sig lines, but eilonwy got there first, and basically said what I would have said.

Then, Piglet posts again and makes another good point! I guess when I first came to MDC, I saw the "AP laundry list" sig lines as being a bragging contest. But now that I've been here a while, I can see how they are also (or instead? I'm not sure) just a matter of pride.

And I realized that for a long time my sig line said, along with my kids' name and b-days, "planning the homebirth of #3 mid-march." hmmmm. . . pot, this is the kettle??


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## Mindful Mom (Jun 9, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by dotcommama_
*I can't speak for the OP, but I will for myself. The judgementalism doesn't insult me or make me feel bad about my parenting choices. That's not why it bothers me. It bothers me because sometimes it's just pointlessly negative and it just brings down the general helpful - happy nature of the boards. I'm not sure that makes sense, but if I read a thread like that it just makes me feel negative-icky and that's not why I enjoy being a part of MDC.*










Exactly -- when I read a post that seems to have been made for the sole purpose of being critical or negative, I wonder what the point is. What does ANYONE stand to gain from it? Would it make me feel badly about my parenting choices? Maybe yes, maybe no -- it would depend on the issue and on how I was feeling that particular day.

It's been suggested that one would only feel badly if one were insecure about one's parenting choices --- I think this is untrue. I thinks it's possible to be very secure about your parenting choices but still find harsh and judgemental comments unsettling and hurtful -- especially when they're made in/by a community of supposedly like-minded mothers.

I'm going out on a limb here, but sometimes I think that some AP parents get a bit of a rush by being outside the mainstream. Maybe it feels good to point out how different we are? Maybe posts about "those" mothers are a good venue in which to highlight how different we are from the "mainstream" (for lack of a better term). Maybe the same can be said of the signiture lines -- that they're a list of how "non-mainstream" someone is.

I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing to want to stand out from the mainstream -- especially our current mainstream -- but maybe there are more constructive ways to do it.

Just musing....


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

I am sure that the sig lines have a different intent depending on the person who writes them, and have a different effect depending on who reads them.

If someone reads a particularly judgemental post, and then sees the sig line with the list of all the "right" things to have in a sig line, they may think the poster is a judgemental bragger. If that same person with the awesome AP mama credentials in her sig line writes a kind and non-judgemental post, a person who reads the post is not apt to see any type of self-aggrandizing in the sig line.

I think a lot of us feel like we don't fit neatly into the categories, either, and have trouble believing that so many others do. Like, I co-sleep, breast fed, use gentle discipline, eat vegetarian, use a sling, support local businesses and charitable causes, etc, etc, but there are a lot of "buts".

We cosleep with two children, but, we put our son to bed in his room each night, lay down with him until he's asleep, and when he comes into our bed later, at whatever time it is that he wants to, he's welcome.

I went into labor at 6 months. My birth became a medical birth before I had even really thought about what type of birth I wanted.

I breastfed my son until he was practically self-weaned - but, I pushed it along a little because I had recurring mastitis that was totally debilitating me. My daughter is formula fed because she's adopted and I could not induce lactation. And she uses a pacifier - she doesn't know what a breast is, and wouldn't go near mine when I offered it as a pacifier.

I use gentle discipline, but I use time outs. What I call a time-out is sitting on a chair, talking to mommy about the behavior and how it makes people feel, and making a plan to get along once out of the time out. There is no shutting of doors or timers.

We're vegetarian, raise our own chickens to have cruelty free eggs, but we eat some junk food. Okay, my DH and I eat lots of junk food, but my kid has just a little bit. We buy organic when it looks good and is affordable.

My daughter loves the sling. She wants to be in it 90% of her awake time, and most of her nap times. I'd like her to like being in it 60% of her awake time, and fewer of her nap times. When my back isn't killing me, I love it.

I use cloth diapers, but I am not "into" them. We use a service, and we use disposables when we travel.

I support local businesses whenever I can, but go to chains when I can't find what I need at the local businesses. Or when I don't have time to search extensively.

I think there's a two line limit on the sig line, and I can't present myself as being this or that and feel honest about it without all the "buts" in there. I think that that may be what some people here are talking about.

L.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

starting over, sigh, nak baby just erased post (sigh)

the 'point' is some kind of 'i'm not crazy!' validation. if you live in an ap kinda community, i'm glad for you. but when irl you are practically the ONLY person you know who even *considered* bfing, let alone radical things like attending to your wailing child, sometimes it's nice to put the shoe on the other foot- the 'your parenting is lousy, not mine' foot, instead of having your whole universe united in thinking what a loon you are for cosleeping, etc. yes, it's defensive, it's wrong, yadda yadda.

do you mean to tell me everyone here is (or should be) so karmically pure that irl, with like-minded folk, you never raise an eyebrow to your friends when you see someone giving their 6 wk old baby coke in a bottle?

the world needs kindness and understanding, so believe me, i am not advocating a perpetual bitchfest with nothing good to say. i get your points. it's all true. but the world needs radicals unafraid to be get-in-your-face blunt about wrongful deeds, as well. (and irl AND online, how many more moms get praise for 'attempting' to bf and succor for 'failing', than someone gutsy enough to tell them the truth? we need people brave enough for that too.

i think a vent here keeps us in good practise for when those times may be necessary, and offers up multiple viewpoints to reflect upon before opening one's mouth. i posit that the 'vent' posts are a valid expression indulged in not only by mean and negative people trying to feel superior, but by people trying to do their best with strong opposition, and that in the long run, they foster empathy, courage, and kindness.

baby is wiggly, so i'm not sure if i'm making sense (and no doubt offending many with my judgmentalism, sigh, but baby is gonna 'edit' me again in a minute if i don't just post, so...)

suse


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## Mindful Mom (Jun 9, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by suseyblue_
*starting over, sigh, nak baby just erased post (sigh)

the 'point' is some kind of 'i'm not crazy!' validation. if you live in an ap kinda community, i'm glad for you. but when irl you are practically the ONLY person you know who even *considered* bfing, let alone radical things like attending to your wailing child, sometimes it's nice to put the shoe on the other foot- the 'your parenting is lousy, not mine' foot, instead of having your whole universe united in thinking what a loon you are for cosleeping, etc. yes, it's defensive, it's wrong, yadda yadda.*
I suppose I can see what you're saying....if I were constantly feeling isolated by and judged for my parenting choices I might be more quick to judge others. I still don't think judgement is a great practice (especially as it relates to the AP lifestyle), but I can see how one would feel the need...

This brings up another interesting point though... I don't think I live in a super-AP-friendly type of community, but I've never really encountered much resistance with regard to our parenting choices. Sure, there have been some well-intentioned -- but stupid and wrong -- comments from family, as well as some looks of shock from people when they find out we cloth-diaper. Some friends might "warn" us about co-sleeping. Most (actually, nearly all!) of my friends BF, some co-sleep, others don't. Most do Feberize at some poing, but don't ever suggest we should do the same. But, people mostly just acknowledge that we do our thing and they do theirs.

Do most people have different experiences? Do you think these experiences might contribute to the tendency to rush to judgement?


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Just a thought...

I wonder if those types of threads are not so much bashing the mother at the grocery store (who certainly could be any of us many times), but rather an expression of frustration about certain parenting practices, and those feelings are just triggered by a glimpse of someone doing something that reminds of of the things we disagree with?

(Okay, please don't grade my grammar there - I've got all sorts of English no-nos in there!)

Not saying this makes it ok, but just wondering if this is what goes on sometimes...


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## dolphinkisser (Dec 26, 2003)

I don't see the problem with sig posts with mom's indicating how AP they are. As a matter of fact it is quite refreshing when i see at the sig line.. mom to breastfeeding, intact , co-sleeping or what have you children because i start sensing a sisterhood and thinking "Hey there are other people who do what i try to do or believe as i do" It gets pretty lonely out in the mainstream when all the media , other magazines and friends and co-workers are telling you how unsanitary it is to have an intact male or how emotionally unhealthy co-sleeping is.
I say....keep it up with the sigs....i need to know you are out there!!


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## mamaroni (Sep 12, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mindful Mom_
*I don't think I live in a super-AP-friendly type of community, but I've never really encountered much resistance with regard to our parenting choices. Sure, there have been some well-intentioned -- but stupid and wrong -- comments from family, as well as some looks of shock from people when they find out we cloth-diaper. Some friends might "warn" us about co-sleeping. Most (actually, nearly all!) of my friends BF, some co-sleep, others don't. Most do Feberize at some poing, but don't ever suggest we should do the same. But, people mostly just acknowledge that we do our thing and they do theirs.

Do most people have different experiences? Do you think these experiences might contribute to the tendency to rush to judgement?*
This has basically been my experience, too. Mostly people are curious about the way we do things.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

there's a difference between 'not esp super' ap communities, and ones where people give 6 week old babies coca-cola, imho (making me feel rather elitist, but oh well.) i'm not feeling esp bashed, and i'm old enough to (mostly) shrug off the ignorant, but it's more the unconscious assumptions that *everyone* gives their baby a bottle (let alone of coca-cola.) go to 'bfing support' & do a search for people getting hassled for nip, you know? hardly just my imagination (& yes, it happened to me, & i'm not sure if it's archived here or not. even me, who has been nursing off & on for over 17 years, started twitching when someone managerial got snippy at the golden arches. letters & lawyers never got me so much as an apology. i think we've got a long way to go.)

i was wondering- is it ok when someone goes to 'parents as partners' and vents when their dh sends their dipes on thru without a second rinse and they turn out crunchy? is it wrong to vent at your neighbor's barking dog, that you can't otherwise do crap about? surely we owe the rest of the world (partners & neighbors included) our positive vibes, not just this pantheon of abstract mamas who may or may not get their panties in a wad thinking 'omg, they mean me!' do y'all get what i'm saying here?

should we petition cynthia to start censoring any post with negative energy? it does abound here, & not just towards mamas. (there was an esp mean thread about meg ryan's plastic surgery. what if she read it!) and let's not even get into the things said about conservative mamas, over in activism.

(i'm using absurd examples to get people thinking, for those who don't 'get' hyperbole. please god, everyone does think these examples are absurd, right? )

how 'bout: if it says 'vent' in the title, & you only get bad vibes out of it, you skip it? i kind of like free speech (or as free as it gets on a moderated message board.)

suse


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

sorry my baby hit the keyboard while nak - double post!


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by suseyblue_
*how 'bout: if it says 'vent' in the title, & you only get bad vibes out of it, you skip it? i kind of like free speech (or as free as it gets on a moderated message board.)*
Good points, and as a rule I try to avoid the venting threads, unless it's someone who wants advice or help for the situation they are venting about.

However, I still think we'd be better off as a community without the venting about other mothers and bashing others for non-ap choices stuff because I imagine it really turns people off from joining MDC.

Think about it, instead of coming here and being willing to learn why we feel breastfeeding is best, they're going to think man I can't even ask that question because I'm be flamed for having given my baby formula.

Do you notice lately how many threads start off saying, "Please don't flame me, but this is how I feel."

How sad that we need this disclaimer. This can be such a loving and caring bunch of women, obviously if you have to ask not be flamed before you post your true feeling something is not right here.

So do I think these post should be censored - no - everyone should have a right to say whatever they want.

But, I do think we as a community should be careful making sweeping accusations - i.e. people who circ their boys are terrible parents who don't love their children and I think people should take a minute before they post about that stranger in the mall feeding their 3 week old coke and think what will it add to the community to talk about this.


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## CerridwenLorelei (Aug 28, 2002)

and mothersong
TY for all your responses

I am guilty of "judging" in my mean nasty parents thread. I say that but I don't feel guilty really-I can't honestly have sympathy for what the mom was doing/saying to her kids. I knew that the women here would understand my vent
I know from my Cj studies and SCPA work that had I said anything to her the kids would have almost likely suffered much worse at home, as well as risked a confrontation in front of my kids and hs group that would have affected many many people ..food and other stuff I don't bother with. I don't care if you eat goldfish-its more important to me that you love your child,treat them like a human being etc etc

I love the sig lines with ap/cloth/etc. There are plenty of mainstream boards out there ..its nice to see it here MPO


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## SaveTheWild (Mar 14, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by tofumama_
*I bf until my kids weren't interested anymore, around 10 mo for both. Could I have encouraged them to continue? Sure, but who are they continuing for?*










I think this is such an important point. I definitely get the sense that with some poeple the need to do everything in the "AP-correct" way beceomes something that is the end in itself, rather than the means to it. It matters more that they do the thing, whatever it is, than that they do what is right for their child. Oftentimes the thing that is "AP-correct" is correct for their child, but not always. And I always respect parents who make decisions based upon what is best for their child, after researching their options and exerimenting, than those who follow group think and do what will make others think they are "cool".

To be truly AP seems to me to be attuned to what your child needs from you, not what other "AP'ers" think is the right thing to do. If, for example, your child is happiest sleeping in her own room in a crib then in my opinion you are doing them a disservice by forcing them to sleep with you if because that is the "AP correct" thing to do. Or vax, or not sling, or whatever

Anyway, I think everyone has an innate need to belong to a group and to define themselves by the rules of that group. Even people who are outside of the "mainstream" band together and set up rules and heirarchy, etc. (Like the "Goths" in high school...they were "outsiders" but they too had insider rules and requirements and a uniform). So I think that is where a lot of this comes from. We finally felt like we found a group of people who seem to click with us generally, and we want to be "approved" by the group.

Anyway, just a thought.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

It is a complex issue. On one hand I think folks like Piglet have every right to be proud of their accomplishments (including that planned C-sec!) Sig lines kinda help us keep up with each other, like I notice Piglet is adding to her family in October. (sorry not picking on you Piglet, you're just a good example today). I really don't want to see any more 'rules' about what you can & can't post- I hope it's someting we can all self-police. I've never done a sig line before, but if I can work it out, I'll stick my personal MDC creds on there. I'm sure they'll piss off a few people..........


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## Mindful Mom (Jun 9, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by suseyblue_
*should we petition cynthia to start censoring any post with negative energy? it does abound here, & not just towards mamas. (there was an esp mean thread about meg ryan's plastic surgery. what if she read it!)*
I never suggested that posts should be censored or that we should try to turn MDC into some sort of polyannic paradise where no one is allowed to vent or complain. The purpose of my OP was to suggest that the judgemental nature of some threads might be inadvertantly hurtful to moms who come here looking for support. Like I said, I just find this particularly surprising on an AP site. Based on the responses in this thread, I'm clearly not the only person who feels this way. My hope was that we might become more mindful of how we might affect others.

I have no problem with the AP-checklist signatures, it's just not my thing. I do think, that for some people, they're a way of highlighting how non-mainstream they are --- not that that's good or bad.


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## misfit (Apr 2, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Scout_
*Misfit, you sound a lot like me! Can we be misfits together?*
Absolutely! We misfits help keep life interesting.


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## mamaroni (Sep 12, 2003)

SaveTheWild, I just wanted to say that I really liked your post. Well put, and I agree.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

SavetheWild, I also enjoyed your post. And I think you make a very good point.

Maybe this is just about human nature. I mean, honestly, how many other parenting boards out there are free of judgment? Have you ever had to deal with a bunch of mamas joking that "If they're old enough to ask for it [BF] they're TOO OLD", etc.??? If you think mainstream mamas are any less judgemental just b/c they are the "norm" I suggest you go hang out at babycenter or some other place. Trust me, you'll come running back here!









And why SHOULD we be any less tolerant than mainstream mamas just b/c we are AP? That doesn't make us any less human. In fact, it probably makes us MORE prone to being judgemental because we are subjected to it ourselves every single day, by family, by friends, by strangers even! (I'm lucky that I, personally, rarely get flack anymore but I read many posts here from people who are basically all alone in their parenting style). How refreshing to be able to come here and bash a certain style of parenting! I'm not saying it's noble, or even admirable, but hey...it's pretty human.


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

I haven't posted but I've been reading this thread since the beginning. You guys might have seen this but just in case I thought I'd post a link here.

I curbed my judgments -or- you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar

Really speaks to this discussion.









~Erin


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Good heavens, I'm certainly not so karmically balanced that I never pass judgement on people. I also cringe when I see babies with coca-cola in their bottles, or turkey hill iced tea (that's a big one around here-- many children start kindergarted literally addicted to that stuff







). Even strawberry milk in a bottle tends to get my shorts in a twist. What I try not to do is make someone feel judged. I don't think it would help that mother if I came here to vent about it, and I don't know if I would help the child if I said something to his mother. Unless it's someone I know, in which case they're likely to get a full on rant.









My sister tends to go on rants about carseats. I've seen her give away carseats to people who didn't have them, because it drives her insane to see a small child unrestrained in a vehicle. She spent a lunchbreak with a co-worker's mother and boyfriend showing them which carseat they would need and how to install it for a baby they were going to pick up in a few hours. When her daughters' cousin needed a different (read: adequate) carseat to come home from the hospital (they wouldn't release her with the one she had) my sister took my younger niece's carseat to the car and installed it for them. In other words, she's *very* judgemental about this particular issue... but instead of coming home and whining about it, she *does* something.

I'd like to *do* something, too. And I feel like if I can't do something constructive, then it's better for me to keep my mouth shut. I have offered to pump for people who didn't have enough milk, because nursie-nursies are important to me. I have given people my phone number so they could call me day or night with questions. I have shown people the ease of cloth diapers. I even listened to my brother's fiancee's concerns about co-sleeping with my nephew, and was non-judgemental enough in my comments to convince her that it was the right thing for him and worthwhile for her. (Turns out the issue wasn't my nephew at all, but the fact that my brother sleeps diagonally when the baby is in the bed, so there was no room for her.







: Whole different story, but you get it all when you actually listen!)

That's my problem with the "what a nast parent" threads: I don't feel like I have a right to complain about something if I'm not making an effort to change it.

About the sig lines: I understand what you're saying, but isn't MDC all by itself a place for people like us? It's true that I don't feel so isolated irl in terms of my parenting. Even though I'm one of three people I can think of who uses cloth diapers, even though I've met one tandem nurser outside of LLL, even though people think I'm a snob because I don't give my son turkey hill iced tea or soda or candy, I don't feel terribly isolated in my decisions. In large part, that's due to this community. It's nice to log on to a website where lots of people have decided that TV shouldn't be a babysitter, or that their child can sleep with them, or to nurse for more than a few weeks. I come here and I feel much less alone, even though irl I know only one other AP and I met her here! :LOL I see the sig lines as, if nothing else, divisive.

When I first got here, I lurked for a while because I was made very nervous by those sig lines. I thought "Gee, my son has had vaccinations, and he's had a bris... does that mean I don't belong here? I don't own a sling.. should I log off?" The more posts I read, the more confident I became that I did indeed belong here, and that there were other women on these boards who were much like I was. It feels to me like those signature lines create a bit of an 'underground' here... a group of women who very quietly go about their business loving and caring for their children in the way they feel is best, taking and leaving great advice and just not discussing all the non-ap things they do/don't do. I guess that's okay with me; I've always been a bit of an outsider. But there are other people who want to feel accepted by most (if not all) who are really put off by those threads, and who often don't discuss it for fear of flaming.


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## Mindful Mom (Jun 9, 2003)

Rynna ---

You're saying everything I've been trying to say -- only much more clearly!!

Thank you!!!


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## myjo (Feb 14, 2004)

I actually just noticed this thread because I spend all my time over in "I'm pregnant". So I'm quite late on the uptake, obviously!

I stopped coming to MDC for about a year because of all the flaming that was going on (and because it was addictive!). But it's nice to see that for the most part, many mamas here agree that less judgement would be nice.

After having two very spirited boys and now with another on the way, I've finally mellowed. Basically, my attitude is that all mothers regardless of how they parent are part of a sisterhood. As motherhood is such an incredibly demanding vocation, all of us members of this sisterhood need to band together and support one another. If you see something is wrong, or a mom is having a bad day, help her! And if she doesn't want any help, chalk it up to stress. I can't tell you how many times my mother friends have seen my kids misbehave and instead of judging me, said "I'm so glad it's not just me!" That feels good. Being made to feel like godzilla mom is not.

Who was it that posted her story about her three little ones misbehaving and driving her crazy in a store, and feeling judged by all those who looked on? Well that's me to a T. My kids are unbelievable at times, and of course in many people's minds, it's my fault. And heavan forbid if I get frustrated with them though! What saint of a mother could possibly stay calm at all times? (unless of course her children were perfect angels at all times).

I guess my point is that all children and all mothers come with their own unique temperaments. Our temperaments sometimes determine how we are able to cope with stress. So if you put a couple of high strung kids with their (surprise, genetics!) high strung mother, there will be tense situations. Couple that with the fear many mothers have of being judged in public, and you have a very tense and probably not very objective mother. And I know some have said "Well why do you care what others think? Just do your own thing and forget about 'them'". Well that's easier for some than for others. We all have certain tendencies which may make life either easier or more difficult for us. The tendency to care a lot about what other's think is not so easily overcome for some as for others.

So in a nutshell, respect, support, and tolerance for diverse personalities, strengths, and weaknesses, that's what we need.


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## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

I'm relatively new to MDC. I just found this thread and it's very thought provoking.

On the one hand, I came here to find some respite from another board I frequent, to find people who could offer advice or commiseration about specific "AP" topics like not doing CIO, co-sleeping, and BFing. It was refresing to not be the most crunchy person in the room! And I wanted an outlet to criticize things I am opposed to. As much as I enjoy multiple points of view, sometimes it is nice to let it all hang out, especially about areas where I really feel there is a right and a wrong answer. It's exhausting to be 100% polite all the time and I think can keep you from being true to yourself.

And while I see the point about driving away potential MDC readers, how inclusive do we want to be? The checklist, while far from the end-all, be-all of attachment parenting, does serve as a nice barometer. And there is a huge difference between, for example, "I tried to breastfeed and due to XYZ problem we ended up FF" and "I can't be bothered to BF so we are FF."

Frankly, there are a lot of bad parents out there, and there is tons more thoughtless parenting done by basically good parents. Being a mother does not (and should not, IMO) make one immune from criticism. Sometimes the best way to be supportive is not to enable negative behavior. Sometimes, being judgmental is not a bad thing!

I also agree that there is a big difference between venting about a behavior and venting about a person.

But on the other hand, I know I am not the "classic" Mothering reader. I have at times felt that others would judge me for some of the choice I made, but I am comfortable with those choices and made them based on a lot of though. I see both points about the sig lines. And I agree that the ultimate that we should strive for is to identify areas where others need help and try to help them.

Either way, I think this is an excellent thread and hopefully will help temper opinions on both sides of the spectrum.

ETA: I also think sometimes that a little guilt, etc. (like idenitfying yourself in a vent post) can work to your advantage. I sometimes think I need a little reminder not to get lazy in my parenting.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

I think one of the reasons that this thread hits a nerve is because maybe we do have a higher standard of conduct for AP moms. Yes, on mainstream boards I read plenty of things that make me sick but I have to say that one of the things I pride myself on is not getting sucked into the nastiness of differing opinions.

For me it comes down to this: if my daughter came home from school and she was complaining about something that someone did (which had NO effect on her, just something she observed about the way they were conducting themselves), I would urge her to be tolerant and empathetic. That's what I think the crux of this is for me - I don't participate in those types of threads because I am trying to teach tolerance to my daughter and it all starts with me.

But how hypocritical am I? I'm the first one to want to lose my lunch if I see a kid being hit in public although I do warmly welcome any women on the GD board who are trying to stop spanking - I think that takes enormous guts. What if these women were one and the same?

Ah, more food for thought.


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## mirthfulmum (Mar 3, 2003)

It was only yesterday that I was thinking about the exact same issue as I was littlerally dragging my tantrumming 21 month old son out of the grocery store. I kept thinking "how AP do I look know?" There I was with a screaming toddler in one hand and three bags of groceries in the other. I was at my wits end, hungry, tired, and pregnant desperately trying to just walk the 1 block to my home and feed my son. I knew that a huge source of his frustration was that he was hungry. I must've looked quite the sight.

I know that I too am guilty of snap judgements. It is something that I've tried not to do but it's a habit I can't seem to break. This thread has given me more to think about.


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## muse (Apr 17, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by LoveBeads_
*I don't participate in those types of threads because I am trying to teach tolerance to my daughter and it all starts with me.

*










Very well put, LoveBeads.

Yesterday we were in Ikea and witnessed a few parenting styles that both Dh and I cringed at. But as he was about to launch into criticism we got talking about how little information and support most families have, and how most people just model the way they are raised. It is very hard to break those patterns when we don't live in a context where elders are respected and pass on valuable life lessons.

Judgement may be something we humans leap to quickly and without thought, but so is war and aggression. It doesn't make it right. Clearly looking at this thread it is something we all need to pay more attention to in ourselves. I think that's a lifelong practice in itself, but for me it starts with watching my speech (or writing) and aiming to not use it to hurt, criticize, attack or blame. The thoughts may be there but I don't need to say every thing I think, and I can work with those on my own.


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## boysrus (Dec 2, 2001)

I havent read through this thread, just the OP. One thing I have noticed is that, if I were to post on here to say that I was having a bad day adn I really yelled at my kids, someone would post back to say what a good mama I am, even though that person doesn't know me, just reads my post. But, if we see someone in the store, maybe having the same sort of day, we rush to judge, even though, again, we dont really know tht person or the circumstances.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

j


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## misfit (Apr 2, 2003)

And I'm going to go out on a limb here (is this where I say, "don't flame me, but...")

I think we're all here because of something we do differently. Yet we are all different from each other. There probably isn't one, single common thing that we all share in practice. But there is one thing that we do all share in conviction. We are all willing to do things differently. We are all open to new ideas. We all have strong beliefs about how we parent.

The question then, the question for each of us to ask ourselves, is, is it about being superior? Or is it about being open? Is it our conviction that how _we ourselves_ do it is right, or is it our conviction that _we each_ do it right _for_ ourselves?

One of my passions is homebirth. And I was a heroic homebirth mother. But when I hear mothers talk about hospital births and praise epidurals, I can't let myself feel superior. I can feel sorry that they can't and won't experience the empowerment I felt from my beautiful natural births. But I also respect their choices. My way is not the way for everyone, no matter how much I believe in it, no matter how right it is for me.

Should mothers scream at babies? No. Should they feed them fruit punch? No. But who am I to judge? Because who would I want to judge me?

Not the people who think my child's life was at risk when I birthed at home.
Not the people who think my child was at risk of suffication in my bed.
Not the people who think my child's teeth could have decayed as she nursed through the night.
Not the people who think my son's forskin could become infected.
Not the people who think my child is at risk of catching measles or pertusis because she is unvaccinated.
Not the people who think my child was spoiled when I came to him whenever he cried.

I truly believe my way is right. But they truly belive their way is right.

I want to practice my way of parenting. But I want to tolerate all ways of good parenting -- no matter how much I might disagree. Because, after all, that is what I am asking them to do for me.

Maybe some of you are here because you believe your way is the only right way. But for myself, I will try to refrain from criticism, and be tolerant of all my fellow mothers.

Yes, I have wrath. But shouldn't it be saved for the abusers, the users, the molesters, the destroyers? For my fellow loving parents, I want to feel nothing but tolerance, and love.


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## campingmumma (Aug 13, 2003)

THANK YOU for starting this thread. I usually hang out on the diapering board b/c sometimes I feel not so "AP" -more "mainstream" to post in different forums - I hate the labels too.

This thread has inspired me to stop lurking over here :LOL

I appreciate all the different ways we choose to parent as a community


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

Did anyone check out the link I posted? (Just curious because no one commented and I thought it was very appropriate for the discussion.)

Here's the link again I curbed my judgments -or- you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar and I'll post the test:

_______

Originally posted by Gr8flmom:

THe other night I was at work in a restaurant and I noticed a young girl (about my age- 23) sitting in a booth at the end of the bar sucking down a cigarette while her baby (in his carseat) sat beside her.

As I began my mental tirade I realized how judgmental and mean I sounded. I also noticed I was scowling. By the time I had gotten my emotions in check she had finished eating and I found myself in that part of the bar once again.

Instead of saying something rude, giving her a dirty look, or even just ignoring her and thinking, "How can people smoke so closely to their precious babies," I just smiled at her and the baby. She smiled back and I inquired about the baby.

She told me he was 6.5 months old and I said, "I know you don't know me or anything, but I was wondering if you would like me to hold him so that you can have an after dinner cigarette."

She said, "That would be wonderful, I really hate smoking around him."

He was a really sweet little fellow weighing as much as my 11 month old. I walked aroung until she finished smoking then I returned him and we talked about our babies. Soon, I found out that she had been hospitalized for 2 weeks when he was a newborn due to post partum psychosis. I have PPD, so that led to another conversation. Also her husband is in jail in PA (we live in NC) and has never met his son. I gave her my # and told her to call me if she ever needed a babysitter or just someone to talk to.

I could have come away from the situation feeling anger, but instead I feel really good about myself and the whole experiance.

____________

This post made me







and it seemed to really address some of the issues that we have been talking about.

~Erin


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

nak

live and let live ladies

someone needs to vent, let her vent
someone needs support, support her
someone writes stuff you don't like, ignore it [or articulate your criticism]
someone wants to finally feel justified in her 'ap checklist' choices, let her

this is a pretty long thread judging those 'judgmental' members. i sometimes read these vents thinking 'wow doesn't she have anything else to worry about' and then the next day i'm totally rooting. sometimes we're all 'those' mothers, sometimes we're all the 'judgmental' posters.

oh and piglet







you're one big reality check ma'am


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

I think that deep down we are all more compassionate women that our posts reflect when we are passionate about something. That's a nice story about the restaraunt. Because without chioce I must do things for My baby that I wouldn't prefer to do( formula feeding ect....) I have to be more open to the idea that other mothers might not be doing what they would rather but what they must. I shudder at the thought that someone sees formula in our diaper bag and thinks that I wasn't determined enough to breastfeed. I have actually had women comment on how bad formula is and how I should have tried harder, that it gets easier..... What they don't know is that for me formula was harder to feed her. I desperatly wanted to breastfeed and was unable to. My daughter couldn't grow on 20 cal breastmilk and now over a year later while I would give anything to breastfeed still she gets high cal formula in a feeding tube every 4 hours. It hurts me and makes me so sad when people say things though. It's not like I don't question myself enough, (could I have tried harder, pumped longer?).


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by simonee_
this is a pretty long thread judging those 'judgmental' members...
Yeah. That's kind of how I see it, too.

Now it's bad to call yourself AP b/c it's a "label".

If people think AP is about performing a laundry list of parenting practices, and that you can't "qualify" if you don't do them all, then they are just ignorant of what AP is, so why should I have to justify the term when people insist on misinterpreting it?

JMHO.


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## coleslaw (Nov 11, 2002)

I found the quote I put in my sig the other day. Although I put it here for me and what I am trying to accomplish personally, I thought it was appropriate to highlight it here.

Peace.


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## misfit (Apr 2, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by coleslaw_
*"To speak ill of others is a dishonest way of praising ourselves."*
Beautiful quote coleslaw. Thanks for finding that.


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## CerridwenLorelei (Aug 28, 2002)

I say
You Rock


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Dharmama, I read your link & I thought it was a great story. I don't know, I guess I personally don't see this particular thread as 'judging the judgers'. I think it's just a chance for some members of these boards to be able to say 'Hey, what someone said really hurt my feelings.' Even if it is Internet land, don't you think people should know that they've hurt someone?

Being judgemental seems to be part of humanity for some reason....... all we can do is try & work on it, right? I mean, if you feel that particular issue needs working on in your life. I know it does in my life.







: Heaps.

And Piglet, I most heartily disagree! It is not bad to call yourself AP because it's a label (I think you're being a bit cheeky there!). And I think that this thread is all about not having to justify yourself- to anyone. Not your friends, not your rellies, not your boss, not faceless names on a dotcom board.....


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## Kincaid (Feb 12, 2004)

I have been "lurking" sporadically on these boards for about a year. Usually I get excited about AP (in waiting for my baby's birth in August), I come and check out the boards, and then I get disgusted with all the judgment and self-aggrandizing that I read.
I think it *does* cause harm to post these "vents" because people come to this site and are driven away by the judgmentalism.
I don't think being secure in yourself makes it all okay... I am very secure, and when I read the judgment threads I think what a yucky karma community MDC is, and I log off fast. There is waaaaaaaay more sniping about what people have seen than there is constructive support or information sharing.
The weirdest thing is that you read all the criticism of moms whose baby is crying in a carseat... and then you see a thread that is 7 pages long on "have you too been reported to child services?" (and all those pages of child services bashing). The irony of that one blew me away!

I have so much respect for the original poster. Thank you for sharing your view.

Also, why not throw this in here too, LOL. WHY does the Queer parenting board seem to be a "hook-up" spot for married/male partnered women whose hubbies have said it is okay to have a chick on the side? It's what 90% of the posts are.... "I have a three month old baby and my husband said I could pursue relationships with women. I would love to meet other people..."
First of all, how in the world do you pull that off with a 3 month old baby that is EBF etc? And isn't attachment parenting about also being attached to your partner? LOL
As an expecting lesbian couple, we just roll our eyes every time we open the "queer parents" thread








Not being judgmental, just pointing out to me what is puzzling


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Kincaid_
*I come and check out the boards, and then I get disgusted with all the judgment and self-aggrandizing that I read.
I think it *does* cause harm to post these "vents" because people come to this site and are driven away by the judgmentalism.*
Welcome Kincaid. Well, it's A) too bad that people are driven away but B) while some posts are judgemental "I get it." I understand why. (Sometimes, there is no excuse though.) Though for me a handful (probably less than that) get me upset in a month because they are too harsh/judgemental. A vent thread usually doesn't because it's just that - a vent. Just like yours is.









Quote:

_Originally posted by Kincaid_
*I don't think being secure in yourself makes it all okay... I am very secure, and when I read the judgment threads I think what a yucky karma community MDC is, and I log off fast. There is waaaaaaaay more sniping about what people have seen than there is constructive support or information sharing.
*
Hmmm, kinda like your post???









I am not Gay, so I don't lurk on the Queer parenting board... I wouldn't know.









But I do visit other boards (because they are relevant to my life) and the information is great! That's why *I* love the MDC community. I focus on the good (the majority is good) and avoid the bad (vent threads... are usually a waste of my time)

In the last 3 weeks, I noticed a thread/poster that really upset me. I chose not to post (and get sucked in) because of time constraints. Does that mean that ALL MDC posters are judgmental and





















. No, some are on certain issues.







But it certainly isn't enough for ME to taint the whole community as judgemental and self-aggrandizing. BUt that's just me.









Quote:

_Originally posted by aussiemum_
*Dharmama, I read your link & I thought it was a great story. I don't know, I guess I personally don't see this particular thread as 'judging the judgers'. I think it's just a chance for some members of these boards to be able to say 'Hey, what someone said really hurt my feelings.' Even if it is Internet land, don't you think people should know that they've hurt someone?*


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## Kincaid (Feb 12, 2004)

Tanibani,

Of course, I didn't say all MDC'er are judgmental, etc.... don't know how you drew that one.... just that "all of the threads in that vein" make me not want to participate in the community.

Seriously, some day sit down and count threads and see how many are info exchanges and how many are "can you believe this other person, let me describe her so we can all chime in on what she was doing wrong..." threads. I think the ratio speaks for itself.

And my question about the Queer Parents thread, I am really just trying to humourously say where's the lesbian or gay AP'ers (not that partnered people who are pursuing relationships additional to their primary hetersexual one aren't "queer" or whatever). Just where are the two mommy AP'ers? Seriously? We are having a boy, so these two mommies are gonna need help! Of course that is not relevant at all to this thread


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Some bi mamas have enough trouble finding acceptance in the gay community without being bashed here, too. Fie, for shame!







:

If someone is having CPS issues, should they be afraid to post, too?

Good grief.

LOTS of opinions on who should post what. So... if asking the admins to delete negative threads is not an option most wish to pursue, & just ignoring the vents taints your karmic atmosphere anyway, what are people suggesting? Self-policing? (The word 'self' in there implies a certain subtle something...) Shunning (a la lapsed Jehovah's Witnesses) repeat offenders, so when they ask how to get poop stains out of their Fuzzibunz they are on permanent 'ignore'?

Please, be sweet all day long if you choose, I'm not crying out for *more* negativity, but I do rankle at other people deciding (within the bounds of the user agreement, which is pita enough) what I or anyone else should say. If I need to vent, I'm gonna guiltlessly, happily, shamelessly vent.

I would venture the say the number of people choosing to avoid MDC because of other people's vents as their primary issue (check out other boards I am not allowed to mention, if you want nasty & negative) is small indeed.

There is a nice thread y'all have going elsewhere here, way cool, I'll dip in for some serenity when I need it; making a board at EZ Board is an option if you want to have an entirely vent-free home base, but please. Enough posting rules here already.

JMHO, Suse


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

T







T







T

Quote:

_Originally posted by Kincaid_
*Of course, I didn't say all MDC'er are judgmental, etc.... don't know how you drew that one.... just that "all of the threads in that vein" make me not want to participate in the community. .*
Did you read your first paragraph? You wrote "the boards." And then I was wrong in writing ALL, perhaps you think it's just "most."









Quote:

_Originally posted by Kincaid_
*Seriously, some day sit down and count threads and see how many are info exchanges and how many are "can you believe this other person, let me describe her so we can all chime in on what she was doing wrong..." threads. I think the ratio speaks for itself.*
Why????







would I want to do that? Unless I was out to prove "scientifically" that this was the case. Which I don't really care to. Because as I said, I don't see MDC _as a whole_ as judgemental. I don't focus on that. I focus on the support I get, need, and can give to other like-minded mothers. I generally ignore anything I find that doesn't add value to my life.

I used to post on mainstream parenting board. I liked it. I go back and visit occassionally. There was one particular board that used to make me run in the other direction (WAH vs SAHM) it was particularly nasty and I never bothered to lurk (why put myself through the pain







) let alone, post. Thankfully, that topic was removed. Overall, it's a good, supportive place (sure there are judgemental posts here and there - just like everywhere else) but I prefer







MDC.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by suseyblue_
LOTS of opinions on who should post what....

Please, be sweet all day long if you choose, I'm not crying out for *more* negativity, but I do rankle at other people deciding (within the bounds of the user agreement, which is pita enough) what I or anyone else should say. If I need to vent, I'm gonna guiltlessly, happily, shamelessly vent.

I would venture the say the number of people choosing to avoid MDC because of other people's vents as their primary issue (check out other boards I am not allowed to mention, if you want nasty & negative) is small indeed.


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