# 123 Magic?



## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

What is everyone's opinions on this? I know am more strict than most here but I think it sounds good.


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

About a year and a half ago, I remember one of the moms at my API group said she was having sucess with the method. I remember she was concerned that it wasn't respectful enough, but in the end we all agreed that if it worked for her son, it was the right method for them. He was a very intense toddler who would get worked up easily and react violently when he didn't get his way. She had problems with him hitting her, and of course, she wanted to avoid spanking, but hadn't ever been able to get him to listen to her. For somereason 1-2-3 Magic worked and she went with it.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I know there have been other threads on this...

It feels disrespectful to me.

Maybe you could see if your husband or kids would use it on you for a week or so, so you can see how it feels to you. Like, if you say you're going to go start dinner and then go to check email one last time, they could say "1...2..." and so on. Just any time you're not responding fast enough for one of them...

Dar


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## Teensy (Feb 22, 2002)

It has worked well for us - especially my 4 year old.

I don't see how simply telling a misbehaving child "That's one," is disrepectful. There's no yelling. No screaming. Either he stops misbehaving or he chooses to go to timeout. He knows that's what will occur if the parent gets to "That's three." He is spared the lengthy lectures.

Some of the descriptions in the book might not be gentle enough to suit some of the parents on this board, but the book argues against spanking kids or yelling at them. "No talking. No emotion." - is a mantra I have found very useful. It has helped my rein in my angry rants ("You know you're not supposed to do X. Blah blah blah!").

The book is probably available from your library - give it a read if you need some discipline ideas and decide for yourself. The book has concrete advice and suggestions that you might find useful.

Also - the making dinner example wouldn't receive the 1-2-3 reponse. 1-2-3 is used for stopping bad behaviors (whining, nagging, name-calling, etc.). The author would advise other methods of getting good behaviors started, for example your DH could give you a star on your chart if you get dinner started on time.


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Teensy*
for example your DH could give you a star on your chart if you get dinner started on time.









:

_I'll give him a star on his chart all right!







_

But seriously, if my dh had a chart to encourage me to make dinner I would be highly insulted too! What's he gonna buy me a new blender if I get a week of stars!??









So I'm not familiar with 123 Magic. What happens after 3? Time out?


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## motherofthree (May 25, 2004)

Has anyone read articles or heard of the idea that stickers, stars, or any other form of exaggerated praise will teach the child to only respond to this praise (such as the over use of 'good job')? and instead to use statements (I see that you went potty all by yourself). What is everyone's response to this suggestion, do you use this method? Are there any good articles, books out there?


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## taz925 (Nov 29, 2001)

Yes I have read those articles so I don't do charts, stickers or even rewards. I read Kids are worth it! (by Barbara Coloroso) and that helped me understand.

About 123 Magic, I didn't like it. Watched the video. I liked how he pointed out that they are children not little adults. I also liked his examples of how going on and on and on doesn't work.

Doreen


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Okay I just read the whole book today so now I can respond.

"Maybe you could see if your husband or kids would use it on you for a week or so, so you can see how it feels to you. Like, if you say you're going to go start dinner and then go to check email one last time, they could say "1...2..." and so on. Just any time you're not responding fast enough for one of them..." Okay this is not how it works. You only count for undesirable behaviour, there are 6 other methods to try and get good behaviour. Did you read the book? And I am different than you in that I DON'T think children are little adults, I don't think they have the same understanding as adults therefore I don't think its wrong to give them consequences and try to stop bad behaviour.

"But seriously, if my dh had a chart to encourage me to make dinner I would be highly insulted too! What's he gonna buy me a new blender if I get a week of stars!??

So I'm not familiar with 123 Magic. What happens after 3? Time out?"

Its not the same thing at all IMO. I am an adult and my DH is adult. We are intellectual equals so to speak. My child is 3. He is not my intellectual equal nor does he know all that I know about living in this world and behaving properly. Therefore I don't have a problem with curbing bad behaviour and rewarding good behaviour. Isn't that like the real world? You get rewarded for good behaviour (promotion at work) or disciplined for bad behaviour (fired from work). 123 Magic says that one of the main problems is treating kids like little adults and expecting them to respond to long discussions. It also says that parents often try and persuade their children and when that doesn't work they end up yelling and hitting. This is very true for me. I get frustrated and end up yelling or reacting too harshly. With 123 Magic if your child starts doing something (like shoving his sister) you say that's 1. If he still doesn't stop you says that's 2. If he still doesn't stop you says that's 3, take 5 (5 minutes in their room). The 5 minutes is not punishment - they are not expected to sit in a corner, they can read or play. They just need to be removed from the situation so that everyone can calm down. When they come out you act normal and don't discuss the issue anymore. Issues that are more serious you either go straight to 3 and add more time for the seriousness of the offence or you come up with suitable discipline for that infraction. He has a whole chapter on how you don't count for every circumstance and that you have to listen and decide what is bad behaviour and what is just being angry or upset. He also has a whole chapter on active listening. I think if you read the book you would be surprised at how AP it actually is. As for the charts-they really do work for my son. Good for everyone who has kids that just behave but my son does not unless he has an actual visual result. He has always been this way. He gets a sticker on the chart and that makes him happy. What's wrong with that? Anyways I can't explain the book well enough but it really is not as bad as people think.

"Has anyone read articles or heard of the idea that stickers, stars, or any other form of exaggerated praise will teach the child to only respond to this praise (such as the over use of 'good job')? and instead to use statements (I see that you went potty all by yourself). What is everyone's response to this suggestion, do you use this method? Are there any good articles, books out there?" This does not work for my son. I have tried that in so many circumstances but he is a very visually oriented child. He wants to see the results of his behaviour right in front of him. I think this advice does not take into account that we all have different learning styles and different love languages. For my son when he was potty training he would not poop in the potty. It did not matter how much I praised him it was just not happening. When I made up a sticker chart and explained it to him he pooped in the potty and has never pooped his pants again. He liked the chart on the bathroom wall, he liked the fun of getting a sticker, he liked being able to look at the chart as a reminder of how well he was doing. And I don't think its true that they will only respond to that from then on because at 6 weeks post potty training I did away with the chart and I can assure you he still poops in the potty without any encouragement. The same goes for bedtime -he gets a sticker if he stays in bed and doesn't keep popping up (this has been a big problem with us, he gets out of bed upwards of 10 times before he goes to sleep). He didn't respond to the praise and encouragement. When we did a sticker chart on his door he goes to bed without fuss and wakes up so proud of himself (I did it! he says and puts a sticker on his chart). I really don't understand how this could be a bad thing.

I appreciate all the response and welcome more! I think I will try it but if anyone has any info on how this could be something bad or won't work I will be glad to consider it. In my home DH and I both have a problem with yelling and getting really overwhelmed with the kids. I think something like this will really help us. And like I said my son will only respond to firm limits and tangible evidence of his behaviour. So putting him in his room, the same consequence, for every misbehaviour I think will work for him. I can't do a good enough job of explaining but it really is a good book. He totally advocates respecting kids feelings. That's why he created the method - no more yelling, threatening or spanking. Just a known consequence and a calm parent. I think it sounds great!


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly*
With 123 Magic if your child starts doing something (like shoving his sister) you say that's 1. If he still doesn't stop you says that's 2. If he still doesn't stop you says that's 3, take 5 (5 minutes in their room).

I am usually against 123 magic, but your post made be think that maybe it would be beneficial for parents/children of a certain temperament....if nothing else, it is a good step away from spanking and yelling, right?!

We used to use it, and it generally worked. But I eventually decided that, at best, each time I used it was a missed learning opportunity. And, at worst, it dismisses the child's pov. To explain, in the above example, there is a *reason* the child is shoving his sister. Not an excuse, but a reason. Instead of using 123, I prefer to physically stop the shoving, and then address the reason (trouble with sharing? overstimulated? she hurt him?). 123 magic will stop the shoving, but he might be left "stuffing" negative emotions without a more appropriate way of dealing with the situation.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

My oldest is very strong willed, argumentative and can be a difficult child, (what some of you call spirited, but I don't like that term).

We use 123 Magic with her and it works very well. What I like about it is that it takes the arguments and yelling right out of the equation. We are all much more calm and matter-of-fact about discipline, and it just doesn't escalate the way it used to. Even my dd admitted she thinks it's a better way.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

We loved it!! I think it is great. Things with my oldest dd were completely out of control and her behavior was brought to a managable level within 48 hours. amazing results. we using mostly for annoying behaviors such as whining, arguing, begging, tantrums, bickering, puttering when I asked her to do somehting, that sort of thing which is where most of our problems started. I would ask her nicely until I got so annoyed that I blew up at her and then she would look at me "like why are you so mad.

Anyway it is certainly worth a read. we explained things to them completely before we started and she agreed to comply (go figure) we rarely get past one anymore. I also wanted to say most stuff she and my 4 year old know good and well why the things I am counting for are wrong. and honestly, to me I don't care what drove them to this behavior, they know what kind of behavior is good and acceptable and when I start counting they know good and well what they did wrong and what the better way to handle it was and they chose to be mean or annoying on pupose. they chose to push thier sister over the edge because they were bored. they chose to hit because it was more rewarding than getting a grown up. 1- a reminder that that behavior is unacceptable "Madeline we don't whine and carry on in this house. please stop." 2 - warning. "Madeline no more" 3 - thats it "I said no whining. take five. go" No lectures no punishing. No explaining the rule again, she knows it very well. It has been the rule for 8 years now. I don't need to tell her bad it was, or how dissapointed I am. I don't even have to remind her why irt was bad or that people don't like to be around hiners. (obviously she just spent 5 minutes in her room because she couldn't stop without a break from people)

Anyway, even my kids like it. They would prefer no correction at all but in our house that is not an option.


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## jannan (Oct 30, 2002)

i use 1.....2........3.......with dd and she usually stops the undesired behavior . infact she always does . she has never questioned my what happens after 3. i like it . it works for me!!!!!!!!


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I just wanted to point out to those who haven't read the book that there is more to 1-2-3 magic than just counting and it isn't anything like saying "you better do xyz before I get to three." there is much more to it than that.


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## sparrow (Nov 19, 2001)

i tried it for a while. i couldn;t do the time outs- they were way too traumatic to my ds & to me too. i just can't go to the length of holding the door shut while he screams & yanks on it from the other side.

we do time in's now, since i feel that when he is acting out, he probably needs more love & connectedness, not less. and when i am on the verge of losing it & yelling, i give myself a time out









i still think it can be a valid method for those who can use it. i have a friend who has 2 kids & finds it very useful. i just couldn't stomach the timeouts- i would give him one now only if he did something really dreadful, which he hasn't been doing since i took the time to understand what his behaviours were really communicating with me.

that said, i only have one child, and i understand that everthing gets more complex the more children you add to the picture.


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## TingTing (Jan 12, 2004)

I don't like it. I used to work with an Early Childhood educator who used it with toddler and preschool aged kids. It got to the point where many kids wouldn't do anything their teachers might have wanted them to do without her counting "1...2..."







I can still hear it. It was like nails on a chalkboard after a while, for me as much as the kids I suspect. I also noticed some of the younger kids in her care counting 1-2-3 when they were having conflicts with other kids. Surprise, it didn't seem to work so well when the counter wasn't significantly bigger, stronger and otherwise more powerful than the offender, and these kids' ability to resolve conflict peacefully and co-operatively was pretty lacking. In a nutshell, if you're comfortable with time-outs and other punitive disciplinary measures you'll probably like 1-2-3, and if you aren't you won't like it.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
and honestly, to me I don't care what drove them to this behavior, they know what kind of behavior is good and acceptable.

I guess the problem for me is that I really *do* care what led to a child's behavior - that allows me to be proactive the next time, 1-2-3 is a completely reactive method.

If a "time-out" is the required response after 3, it definitely is a punishment. The child is going to time-out because they didn't stop X behavior by 3, not because he's out of control or overwhelmed or whatever. Sometimes he may be those things, too, but this isn't about responding to his needs for time or space, it's about punishing his disobedience, whether he can play or read or whatever. I believe that coopertiveness is a much better goal than obedience - the former is about the more powerful controlling the less powerful; the latter is about working together to meet everyone's needs. 1-2-3 Magic is really about training obedience, just like Ezzo or the Pearls - it's just a less violent way of doing it.

Dar


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## NaturalMamma (Nov 22, 2001)

I tried it a couple of times w/3.5 yo DD and she thought it was hilarious







, so I ditched it (she's high needs and a bit precocious). I definitely don't like the idea of a time-out. I know some moms have tweaked it to 1-2-3 transition! Kind of like "I'll give you until 3 to handle this yourself and then I'll help you."

I think that if you have a strong-willed child who is getting to you...and you are at the end of your rope, it is certainly better than spanking a child and losing your cool.

It still feels kind of threatening to me. Like "you're gonna get it!" But that could be my own hang up of growing up w/a dad who threatened the belt.







You know, I don't think he ever followed through. Hmmm.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I was recommended 1,2,3 Magic by several psychologist. We were having family crises and things were totally out of control. I really did not like some of the mentally of the book and style of parenting but we were desperate.

At that time, my son was emotionally unable to take in and process reason, logic, and natural consequences. I was unable to mentally handle and teach him discipline through this phase. Everything was out of control.

Doing 1,2,3 Magic helped us reclaim our situation. I did modify a little. I let my son know the bad behavior. We don't jump on the couch. He would continue I would say 1&#8230;. 2&#8230;. 3&#8230; After we reclaimed our home it was much easier for us to move to follow the suggestion, idea, redirection, et. I changed to saying "We don't jump on the couch we jump on the little bed." Then count if he continued. It helped us move to the natural consequences and "reasoning" type discipline. It was easier to start up dealing with the "why" behaviors and helping him figure out other ways with dealing with the situation. It also taught me something about my son: He learns better if you give him a break from the bad behavior. This gave him time to get his emotions in check. When we have our bad moments, I no longer count but I do tell my son he is - label emotion-and he needs to go to his room and calm down he is 9. The help help him with the ideas to work it out later. This has been very effective for him. My girls are different and we handle these situations differently.

I agree with there is more than just counting. I also think it can be modified to fit child/parent needs. I would see nothing wrong with sitting with a child for the time.

I will admit I use it from time to time when I do not like the natural consequence like talking when it is sleep time. My son went through a phase of talking and disturbing others rest. He knew why this was unacceptable. He knew he did not have to fall asleep just be quite. Using 1,2, 3 and making him stand outside the room was much easier than banishing him completely.

As for shoving or hitting that is a "biggy" and immediately goes to the room. This helps for several reasons. First and for most, it focuses the attention on the hurt child. Many times when hitting and shoving are happening everything is out of hand. Even if you are using 1,2,3 Magic it does not mean you cannot/should not ward off and watch for things that lead up to these behaviors.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NaturalMamma*
I know some moms have tweaked it to 1-2-3 transition! Kind of like "I'll give you until 3 to handle this yourself and then I'll help you."

Yeah, last night I realized that I still kinda do this....although I didn't really connect it with the book. Very rarely, though. Specifically, when dd is acting like she can not handle a situation, but I want to give her a clear chance to "get it in control" before I step in and help her--help she certainly doesn't want. There is no punishment beyond any immediate action to end the inappopriate behavior. For instance, we were in a bagel store the other week, and she wanted an apple juice from the refrigerated case. These used to be plastic bottles, but this visit were suddenly glass bottles. Of course, she wanted to hold the glass bottle in line as she routinely held the plastic bottle. I decided to let her try. But she refused to hold it a way we felt was safe....held it loosely with one hand, waved it around. We insisted that she hold it still with 2 hands, she started getting panicky and refusing, tantrum seemed inevitable, she *knew* exactly what was necessary to calm the situation down and any more talking might result in glass and apple juice all over the crowded bagel store....so I said "one.", "two.", and before I could say "three" she handed it to me and started sobbing









But I didn't have to wrestle it out of her hand, and it didn't go flying as I had feared, so I think this was the best way we could have handled it. Frankly, the whole thing could have been avoided by a few sips of the apple juice, as I think she was just really hungry.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Well my son does not respond to redirection or discussions or anything else. We have been trying everything for over a year. He has ADHD (although I don't use the label because we are trying to deal with it naturally). It has culminated with me being mad at him all the time and really not enjoying being with him. Now he is a lot calmer as am I. i am not counting at him all day. And its not like counting is the first thing I try for every situation. But I know my son and I know when there is nothing else that will work.

Dar - Don't you only have one child? And to the best of my knowledge she does not have ADHD? Then you honestly cannot know how you would or would not deal with this situation and with having another child you have to be dealing with. I take offence at being lumped in with people who use Ezzo and Pearl.


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## emeraldangel (May 10, 2004)

Heavenly, I haven't read all of the replies, but I wanted to tell you my experience with 1-2-3 magic.

I read it from the library when I was trying to make a switch from spanking to not spanking. For that purpose, it was excellant. My children knew immediately if they were crossing a line and I was more able to keep my temper in check.

However, as my understanding of PD matured, I could also see that I was using time-out in a lot of situations where the children actually need _guidance_ , not just to stop being annoying.







Like, if they were fighting over a ball they both wanted to play with, I was using time-out for that, when really they needed to understand the options of playing with the ball together or taking turns or finding another ball, etc. Their behavior was able to mature when I learned how to help them find solutions instead of just snapping them up to TOs.

I still think there are things for which time-outs are useful and I still think the 1-2-3 method might be best for doing it, but I haven't used it in years. Whining or nagging might come under that category, for example.

FWIW, I'm not a big believer in rewards, although I have used reward charts sparingly. It is true that you get rewarded at work or school for being a "good" employee or student, but I also agree with the research that suggests that people motivated by rewards are usually only after the reward and not for the intrinsic good they would be doing. I hope that my children will grow up to be people of integretity, who do "good" from the deep core of their beliefs, not because they think they will get a special pat on the back if they do good and not because they fear I will withdrawl love if they don't measure up.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly*
Dar - Don't you only have one child? And to the best of my knowledge she does not have ADHD? Then you honestly cannot know how you would or would not deal with this situation and with having another child you have to be dealing with. I take offence at being lumped in with people who use Ezzo and Pearl.

I don't think anyone can know exactly what it's like to deal with any situation. And yes, I have one child, and she doesn't have ADHD On the other hand, I've worked as a classroom teacher to children who had emotional/behavioral disabilities, including ADHD, and I still didn't find it necessary or helpful to use reactive and obedience-focused methods of discipline. And I was dealing with 8 or so kids at a time...

Although your methods of enforcement are clearly very different from the Pearls or Ezzo, your goal with 1-2-3 Magic seems to be the same - obedience. Reactive obedience. It's a training-based method of discipline - issues aren't discussed, there's no compromising, the focus is simply on getting kids to do what they're told to do, quickly. That's the comparision I was making.

And I would be very leery of labeling a child ADHD so young - if he's 3 now and you've been working on this for over a year, then he would have been just two. I do believe that it's vastly overdiagnosed, and especially in a pre-school age child, a high activity level and a short attention span are still well within the range of developmentally normal. I know you said you don't use the label, which I think is great, but then you went ahead and labeled him in your post.

Dar


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I think it's apparent that different children respond to different things. And that books such as this can be modified by parents to suit their children and their home environment. I definitely think it's a huge step away from spanking and yelling. But I also think it's not the opposite end of the spectrum either, it's a step in the right direction.

On principle, I have to agree with Dar. This seems more about obedience and alot less about learning things. I believe that in most situations children have reasons for behaving the way they do, and if those aren't at least recognized by the parents (so they can be proactive) then the situation will either continue, or be "suppressed" by the child to avoid punishment/timeouts (and likely manifest itself in some other behaviour). I don't think it's necessary that the child always understand (I know some kids aren't ready for lectures or logic, etc) but I think as a parent I learn alot by analyzing the situation.

I think for me my biggest fear would be using it as a crutch. If it worked that well, I can see myself in a situation where I'm too tired to deal with the child, and just saying "1, 2, 3" knowing it would stop the behaviour might be very tempting (I'm not accusing anyone here of this, I just know myself). There have been many times when DD has really acted up and I'm so frustrated with her, but then I realize when I stop to look at the situation that it was ME who messed up: this happened just yesterday and it turned out she had hardly eaten all day and was hungry - I just assumed she'd tell me if she was hungry! Man, did I feel guilty, and was SO glad I hadn't tried to discipline her for whining, crying, demanding to be carried and not walking, etc. even though she was driving me nuts.

Finally, I remember SO WELL what it was like to be a child and not be listened to. If my brother and I were squabbling, nobody cared to hear our sides of the story, or to resolve the conflict (which to a parent was trivial and annoying, but to us was very important!). I so HATED that, and it has big ramifications to how I am today. If I don't feel I'm being given "my side of the story" then I get really reactive. So, because of my own experiences, it is SO important to me that in any situation, no matter how childish or annoying it is (whining, siblings squabbling) I'm going to make myself sit down and listen to them and try to help them work it out that way.


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## myjulybabes (Jun 24, 2003)

I just got this book. I really don't think it's for everyone. And I'm not so sure I'd use it on a 2 yr old, as the author suggests. But I have a nearly 5 yr old who thinks it's the funniest thing in the world to push mommy and daddy's buttons. And dh and I grew up with yelling and spanking, so those tend to be our knee-jerk reactions when pushed too far, even though we know it's not particularly effective or respectful. We've managed to quit spanking, but the yelling is still happening too much. So I think this is going to work for us.

The things I like about it are allowing the child 2 chances to self-correct before the time out, the fact that you are supposed to explain the system to them before you use it, and that the time outs are in their room, and they are allowed to play, or read, or do what they want, just no electronic entertainment or friends. You are also only supposed to "count" them for behaviors they already know they shouldn't do. If it's something new, you should explain it.

I don't think it's the world's best discipline book, and I also got "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk", so that we can take a multi-faceted approach. I think it IS effective for some kids in some situations though.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

I used it with my first daughter...never got past 1

I used it with my second daughter...I said "one"

She said "2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10!!!" She was 2 at the time









It was hilarious and I laughed so hard...of course all was lost at this point

it never worked for her after but it still worked for her sister...

2 kids, 2 different responses


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## aim2please (May 29, 2004)

I have just gotten this book and am in the middle of it. I am trying it out with the kids but it doesn't seem that it will be the best method for us. However, I am desperate for something as things are way beyond out of control. My 2 dd fight constantly, one is 9 the other 3 and the 3 y/old is very strong willed, or spirited whichever you prefer... 9 yr old says she hates her and does things to try to get my attention more, also pushes her sisters buttons over dumb things which causes 3 yr old to tantrum a lot of times. Then I wind up losing it (yelling) fibromyalgia and a lot of times am functioning in pain or on not enough sleep and also noises can irritate me at times... add in a ds who will turn 2 in two months and who is suspected to have autism (waiting for official diagnosis...) and you can see the chaos! SO... what else do I do? Any books to read that would be better, I'm also going to try the difficult child book, but haven't had a chance yet... Thanks everyone!


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

I'm in the middle of it too, but haven't started using it since dh still needs to read it. I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, I agree with the author that talking too much is counterproductive and even harmful in many cases. Acting angry and aggrivated toward your kids is worse. I'm hoping this method will help reduce those episodes around here. I tend to be easily aggrivated, and dd is stubborn, so it's a bad combination. And *both* dh and I are "explainers" -- we go on and on. No wonder dd has learned to tune us out. So I think for basic stuff -- defiance, ignoring, hitting (an automatic "3") -- it will give us a method that we can stick to and be consistant. The "no talking, no emotion" rule also imposes discipline on *us*, the parents, to stop nagging, guilt-tripping, and talking them to death.

On the other hand, I think the authors are a bit too control oriented for my taste. I don't think I'll use the method for sibling rivalry, for example, except in certain circumstances where they are just bugging eachother for the fun of it. If there is real conflict over a toy or whatever, I'd rather help them learn to negotiate a solution. I won't use it with tantrums either (for a young child, anyway.) I have a method that works great for me right now, which involves giving the child sypathetic, non-judgemental attention yet *not* giving in to demands. I see no reason to stray from that method right now, and I'm uncomfortable counting small children's tantrums anyway. Older kids, maybe -- they are able to learn a more socially acceptable way to express anger.

But the beauty of the system is that I get to decide what gets counted and what doesn't, so I see it as a useful tool to help us all get along. I wish to respect my children's emotions and needs, but I don't have a problem being the "boss" when push comes to shove (literally, sometimes!)







If it helps me yell at them less and use that nasty exasperated tone less, I think the kids will be better off for it.

I'm just starting on the "start behavior" section, and frankly, this is where I need the most help! (For those who haven't read the book, you only use 1-2-3 for behaviors you want the children to *stop* doing, not for things you want them to *do*.) I'd love to hear if the book has helped anyone in this regard. Again, I'm not fond of one or two of the "start" techniques, but there are plenty to choose from, so I just won't use those.

Bottom line, I think it will be useful for our family, but we'll hone it to fit our own beliefs. The best thing about it is the concrete method: "do this, then this, then this. Don't do this and that." I've gotten tons of good info from books like the Sears's Discipline Book, but I often have trouble implementing them in the heat of the moment.

edited to add: See what I mean about being an "explainer"? Look how long this post is!


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

I read it awhile ago and found it very belittling towards children.

Going to read it again in the near future and see how I feel now, lol.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:

I read it awhile ago and found it very belittling towards children.
I agree with you as far as the tone of the book. Too bad.







Also, some of their strategies and/or the situations in which they suggest using them are too controlling of children, IMO. Nevertheless, I think the basic 1-2-3 method, as well as some of the other strategies can be useful in some situations without being belittling at all. For example, today my dd helped me fold the futon up into "chair" position. She didn't like the way it looked, and explained how she wanted it done, which was physically impossible. (She wanted it to be narrow so that only one person at a time could sit on it.) We had a short discussion about it (calm and rational) but in the end, she wouldn't accept that her idea wasn't possible. She stood angrily in my way so that I could't push it against the wall where it belonged. I told her that I needed her to step aside so that I could put the futon in place, and she said "NO!" defiantly. In our house, such disrespect is not O.K., and she knows it. A count was in order and she stomped away at "1". She was dramatically pouty for a while, but it never came to yelling or physically removing her from behind the futon. I don't see this as "belittling" toward her. Exercising authority over her? Sure. I don't have a problem with that. I didn't use the counting for her pouting, however. I think the authors might have done so. *That* would have been belittling, I think. I won't count my child's expression of emotion unless it is hurtful to herself or others. I just said I understood that she was angry about the futon, then ignored it.


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## MaWhit (Jan 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aim2please*
My 2 dd fight constantly, one is 9 the other 3 and the 3 y/old is very strong willed, or spirited whichever you prefer... 9 yr old says she hates her and does things to try to get my attention more, also pushes her sisters buttons over dumb things which causes 3 yr old to tantrum a lot of times. Then I wind up losing it .......SO... what else do I do? Any books to read that would be better,

Please read Siblings Without Rivalry. Even before you asked about other books, I thought to myself, "Oh, she HAS to read Siblings Without Rivalry!"


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## MaWhit (Jan 5, 2002)

I read this book a while back and have implemented part of it. I agree that the authors seemed too nit-picky and controlling, recommending counting nearly everything. But I think that as one tool in a parenting toolbox, the method can be useful. I am to only count for behaviors that have already been discussed at length, that I know the kids understand, and when I know they do not need something else from me.

I borrowed the book from the library and do not remember the 6 things to "start" behaviors. Would someone be willing to post a recap to refresh my memory?


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

I have more than one child and have not had ds diagnosed but am almost 100% certain he'd be ADD categorized.

He tunes out everything he's not interested and acts as if I am not speaking to him.

But what motivates him? He wants to do everything his way and on his own terms all by himself. I don't know about 123 magic but we count to five and it gives him time to respond and the consequence usually is that we will help him with what we have asked of him. We have to follow through and physically remove him or walk him through or lead him to what he needs to do.

This is an extremely difficult child. It is always hard, we have to adjust continually, and we are only sometimes successful. This is one of the things that we have kept over the years. By the way he LOVES numbers is so fascinated with adding, drawing, playing with them. So he notices this better maybe.


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## aim2please (May 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Whit*
Please read Siblings Without Rivalry. Even before you asked about other books, I thought to myself, "Oh, she HAS to read Siblings Without Rivalry!"









Thanks so much for the suggestion, I will have to look for it, we could definitely use something!


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## shantimama (Mar 11, 2002)

For the most part we use GD appoaches to problems but sometimes we have to reach the kids first! Sometimes all &*%$#@ will break loose when the kids are playing and before I can even get into the "conversation" to help a la Siblings Without Rivalry we have to get the volume under control. That is when I find counting to three helps. If the kids haven't quieted down enough by 3 to let someone help they go to separate spaces to cool off for a few minutes and then when they come back we work through whatwever the issue was. Often my counting to 3 helps them take a tiny step back so that we can work on the problem. In those situations I see it as an emergency measure, a way to help everyone regain control of themselves when they have lost it. GD is the second step - just like if my toddler runs out on to the street I grab him and get him to safety first before explaining why. I don't spank or punish him for going on to the road but we get to a safe place first before talking to him.


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## NatureMama3 (Feb 25, 2004)

No input on the 123 aspect, but as a Mama with 2 ADHD boys, I can relay that time-outs DO NOT WORK for them. ADHD makes a time out akin to torture. Rather than that, we use redirection or an "active' time-out such as going out back to ride bikes instead of continuing the activity they were that caused the problem.

Frankly, using a lot of punitive measures with an ADHD child is risky. They often don't understand what they're being punished for (quick to act, quick to forget) and may simply end up being very angry individuals.








ADHD *is* very difficult to deal with. I wish there WAS a panacea. The best we've found is lots of deep breathing (us), grapeseed extract and melatonin (them) and lots of prayer before acting.


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