# Another "other people's kids" post...



## Kreeblim (Dec 19, 2009)

I never know how to deal with other people's kids, and sometimes it borders on dangerous. This last incident at a playgroup was a bunch of kids in the 4-6 year old range running around a little playground while some parents hung out there, and others were doing stuff inside a building with younger kids. The 4-6 crowd was picking up handfuls of leaves and throwing them, sometimes dropping from the top of climbing playground, and sometimes actually throwing at people. I noticed some woodchips, dirt and rocks getting scooped up instead by certain kids, so I just reminded everyone that while leaves are OK, rocks, sticks and dirt are not. I was the ONLY parent saying anything to any of them and there were maybe one or two others watching from a distance (my husband was here and dealing with our younger kids though).

Shortly after, one specific kid scooped up a huge double handful of JUST dirt, woodchips and rocks, and threw it into another kid's face point blank, causing that kid to stop in his tracks and rub his eyes while spitting out dirt. I got up, and followed the thrower and said in my stern-but-understanding voice: "Hey, no throwing rocks, woodchips or dirt because it could really hurt someone. You can throw leaves though..." and literally as I was saying the last part he bend over, scooped up a bunch of woodchips, and threw them at my face. It was a direct hit from like 2 feet away and got in my eyes and mouth. I was just totally stunned silent. He then ran off, scooped up another handful of dirt and woodchips and ran to the slide as my husband was getting to the bottom with my 10 month old and chucked it in his direction before running to the other side to throw more at other kids. Fortunately my husband's legs were the only things hit and the baby wasn't at all.

I have no idea how to handle these things. If this happened with my kid we'd go to another part of the park IMMEDIATELY because they can't play with other kids if they hurt them. I don't think we've have ever gotten past the "Throw leaves please, not dirt/sticks/rocks" request though since they already understand that. The kid was probably 5 and his parent might have been one of the ones watching from a distance, or maybe his parent was out of eyesight completely, I have no idea. I got the distinct impression that if I asked him to come sit with me or walk to another part of the playground that he would probably be a fighter and screamer (and I do not want to touch some other persons kid to force them to talk with me) or just throw another handful of woodchips in my face. The next thing I did was tell my boys to go into the building because we were getting ready to go, and then I was going to ask thrower kid who his parents were but he ran off to the other area where some of the parents were so I just kind of let it be. I don't even know if any of the other parents saw it.

He was probably 5, and my big fear is that this kind of stuff is happening specifically when his parents are NOT there, and if he is allowed to be one of the kids playing alone in the playground that these types of things will keep happening, but the parents won't be terribly receptive since they don't see it themselves. This time the kids all dispersed around the time where something would have needed done, but what if it continues in the future? At what point do I ask him to stop, and if he doesn't at what point do I remove him from the area? I don't even know who his parents are or what his name is, so it might take a while to go get his parents if I have to go through the building asking "who's-the-parent-of-the-kid-with-the-red-jacket" or whatever.

Anyway, how would you all have handled this?


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I would have been SOOO mad at that kid.

That is the type of behavior that keeps him from being invited to parties and other get togethers.

Unfortunately, they are also often the kid who's parent will say "Johnny.. did you throw rocks at Mrs insertname"? Johnny says "no", and Mommy believes him, and never, ever sees him do it, and never ever believes it when all the other parents tell her the same thing. Then, school starts and the teacher has a complaint about little Johnny.. and Mommy and Daddy think it MUST be the teacher's fault.. she's not challenging him enough. Because he never does that at home.

If it's not your child that is being hurt, I would learn to ignore what the other kids are doing. It's hard at first, but I just ignore most of it now. If it doesn't hurt me, my child, or my property, I let other people's kids do what they want, because usually the parent don't care, so I don't care.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

I would have told ALL the kids, no throwing things at people.

I wouldn't have made the distinction between leaves and dirt/rocks - b/c that leaves too much of a gray area.


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## Kuba'sMama (Oct 8, 2004)

If I child acted the way you describe in a playgroup I would totally look for the parents, and I have done that in the past. Sometimes we all get caught up in conversation and it's not intentional neglect. I come up, really friendly like and say in a non-judgemental tone "Hi! There seems to be some rock/stick throwing where your son is playing and I would hate for him or someone else to get hurt. I actually got some in my face just now." Most likely the mom just didn't notice.

It's the tone of your voice that sets the stage for either friendly resolution, or mama-bear defensiveness. Something like "Hey! Your bratty kid just chucked a fistful of rocks at my face!" shouted across the yard might not do the trick.









I never hesitate to approach parents or kids at this age, especially when there are younger children playing nearby. They're too young to deal with this themselves. Most of my experiences have just been moms who got caught up in chatting, enjoying adult time and forgetting to look at their kid.







Been there too.


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## mama2cal&darby (Jun 13, 2008)

I would ask once for no throwing stones and dirt and if he did it again, I'd go find his parents.( Even if I have to shout "Who's the parent of the child with the red shirt?!?") I don't think it's up to me to discipline other people's kids, but I definitely think it's well within my rights and responsibility to let parents know if their child is being a aggressive or destructive. If I don't like how the parent deals with it (or doesn't) I can either leave or complain if someone is in charge.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
I would have been SOOO mad at that kid.

Unfortunately, they are also often the kid who's parent will say "Johnny.. did you throw rocks at Mrs insertname"? Johnny says "no", and Mommy believes him, and never, ever sees him do it, and never ever believes it when all the other parents tell her the same thing. .

My experience is the opposite. In my experience, the kid that is running wild and hurting people when the parents aren't watching are the kids whose parents physically punish, give them painful or very unpleasant chores or embarrass them as punishment.


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## tsfairy (May 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
My experience is the opposite. In my experience, the kid that is running wild and hurting people when the parents aren't watching are the kids whose parents physically punish, give them painful or very unpleasant chores or embarrass them as punishment.

Or he's the kid whose parents use gentle discipline and are loving and caring but are at the end of their rope because despite all this, their kid is the one kid on the playground who always takes things too far, pushes and hits other kids, yells the loudest and gets the craziest. Parenting style can play a huge role in a kid's behavior, but personality and wiring are unique to each kid and you never know what else might be going on to cause this kind of behavior.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
My experience is the opposite. In my experience, the kid that is running wild and hurting people when the parents aren't watching are the kids whose parents physically punish, give them painful or very unpleasant chores or embarrass them as punishment.

I wonder if it's different in each area. Not just regionally, but my actual town.

Most parents here either don't discipline at all, or are generally gentle and thoughtful when they do. I don't think I know a single person who spanks or yells at their kids. (except my sister in law)

Generally the abuse you see the most around here is non parenting. Not as much physical punishment or humiliation.

Most parents fall somewhere between yelling at the kids, or ignoring the kids.


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## goldingoddess (Jan 5, 2008)

At the point that the child threw it at your face is the point that his care-giver needs to get involved, I would have asked the group of parents if they knew or were his caregiver and relayed what happened and left it at that.

While I'm OK with someone I know taking my child and sitting down with them and giving them a stern talking to, I would have been majorly freaked out if it as someone I didn't know doing that. If I had been the caretaker, and was looking a way and not noticed the incident I would be very appreciative (and extremely embarrassed) to be notified of the situation from you so I could discipline myself.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

All I know is that I'd want you to seek me out if it were my kid doing it, because I'd want to know that I had misjudged my child's level of responsibility and that I needed to be closer when he was playing.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
All I know is that I'd want you to seek me out if it were my kid doing it, because I'd want to know that I had misjudged my child's level of responsibility and that I needed to be closer when he was playing.


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## southernmommie (Jan 7, 2007)

I would grab that kid and go inside and start asking where this child's parent is. Then explain what happened. Then let the parent deal with it. But I would definitely have his arm in my hands around the wrist so that he would come with me and not run off. I don't care. I can't let another CHILD run around like a madman and hurt others.

*and if the parents didn't do anything about it and let him keep doing it, my family would leave the park immediately. And explain to the kids that we cannot stay where there is another kid that is going to hurt others. That way when they are at a park by themselves when older, they will leave if the same happens.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
I wonder if it's different in each area. Not just regionally, but my actual town.

Most parents here either don't discipline at all, or are generally gentle and thoughtful when they do. I don't think I know a single person who spanks or yells at their kids. (except my sister in law)

Generally the abuse you see the most around here is non parenting. Not as much physical punishment or humiliation.

Most parents fall somewhere between yelling at the kids, or ignoring the kids.

same here. 'those' kids at the park are the ones where the parents aren't paying attention or those who make excuses for their kids behaviour. Because you know, a 5 year old doens't know any better.


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## Kreeblim (Dec 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
If it's not your child that is being hurt, I would learn to ignore what the other kids are doing. It's hard at first, but I just ignore most of it now. If it doesn't hurt me, my child, or my property, I let other people's kids do what they want, because usually the parent don't care, so I don't care.

I normally would, but my older two were in that group. Plus my younger kids were in the area, though not participating in the leaf tossing. I try to let kids work things out themselves, which it why these things are so difficult for me. The kid wasn't just tossing...he was throwing hard, right at faces, and it wasn't leaves.

Quote:

I would have told ALL the kids, no throwing things at people.

I wouldn't have made the distinction between leaves and dirt/rocks - b/c that leaves too much of a gray area.
I thought about that, but I had two issues. Number one is that a leaf fight is something I see all the time without much problem. My initial reaction is to only get involved in the things that are actually dangerous.

My second issue is that there were a couple of parents watching from a distance while they talked. I don't think they were paying attention enough to see the kid specifically pelting people in the face (or if they did they didn't feel like it was any of their business), but I'm sure they could see the leaves in the air being tossed around and no one seemed to have a problem. So I would have basically been deciding the rules for everyone's children, even though even I didn't think leaf throwing was wrong. And that's assuming that one kid who was actually hurting people would have even cared...he certainly didn't seem to think anything I said was important, nor did he seem to have any qualms about throwing mulch, dirt and rocks into the face of a random adult while they talked to him.

Quote:

I never hesitate to approach parents or kids at this age, especially when there are younger children playing nearby. They're too young to deal with this themselves. Most of my experiences have just been moms who got caught up in chatting, enjoying adult time and forgetting to look at their kid. Been there too.
I assume that's what was going on, I just wish I knew who his parents were before it happened. I still don't actually know if they were inside or outside or what his name is. I'm terrible at faces and names.

Quote:

I would ask once for no throwing stones and dirt and if he did it again, I'd go find his parents.( Even if I have to shout "Who's the parent of the child with the red shirt?!?") I don't think it's up to me to discipline other people's kids, but I definitely think it's well within my rights and responsibility to let parents know if their child is being a aggressive or destructive. If I don't like how the parent deals with it (or doesn't) I can either leave or complain if someone is in charge.
This is probably close to what I'll do next time. It's hard for me not to come off like I'm attacking people though, so unless the parent sees it for themselves I always worry that it will backfire.

I'm not sure I would go much further and speculate about what type of parenting situation the kid is in, but this is a very crunchy group and I don't remember seeing any kid spanked. There are super polite kids and some really destructive ones just like in a normal playgroup. I just need to find a way to make sure my kids are able to play with their friends without having to take them to the eye doctor later because one kid thinks it's fun to baseball-pitch rocks/dirt/mulch into other kids and adults faces. I already had the "some kids are just like that" talk with them on the way home because my eldest got really really upset about the mulch being thrown at the baby. I think I'll try to make a point of learning parents names and whose kid belong to whom...that might make it easier in the future.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *southernmommie* 
I would grab that kid and go inside and start asking where this child's parent is. Then explain what happened. Then let the parent deal with it. But I would definitely have his arm in my hands around the wrist so that he would come with me and not run off. I don't care. I can't let another CHILD run around like a madman and hurt others.

*and if the parents didn't do anything about it and let him keep doing it, my family would leave the park immediately. And explain to the kids that we cannot stay where there is another kid that is going to hurt others. That way when they are at a park by themselves when older, they will leave if the same happens.

I understand where you are coming from, but you really can't physically assault another person even in retaliation. You are taking a huge risk if you lay hands on a strange child.

There's nothing wrong with going to where the other parents are and saying in a loud voice: "There's a little kid out there throwing dirt in people's faces. People are getting hurt."

I can't imagine folks not going out to check on the situation regardless of their parenting style if you did that.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *southernmommie* 
I would grab that kid and go inside and start asking where this child's parent is. Then explain what happened. Then let the parent deal with it. But I would definitely have his arm in my hands around the wrist so that he would come with me and not run off. I don't care. I can't let another CHILD run around like a madman and hurt others.

I have to say that I think this is a really, really bad idea. Laying hands on another child almost always inappropriate, unless you are directly preventing them from attacking another person (and not "he's running around wild and crazy and going to be throwing stuff" attacking, but actually in the immediate process of hurting someone).

And if this child just ignored you and threw dirt in your face, most likely you will not grab their wrist and calmly walk them to their parents, you will have your hands on a child that is kicking/screaming/biting/throwing themselves on the ground/etc. And when their parent (or any other adult) sees you in that sort of physical altercation, that is going to end up as a bad, bad scene.


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## Petie1104 (Oct 26, 2010)

I have, in the past, gone over to an area in the park and asked who the parents of a child are. I usually just explain what happened and emphasize the safety issue involved. Usually the parent is appalled that their child behaved that way. Of course, I felt horrible when one father spanked his child right there, and just kind of thought to myself how that just made the situation worse.


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## southernmommie (Jan 7, 2007)

It's not assault when you grab their wrist and walk them to the parent. No police force would dispute that.


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## Minxie (Apr 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *southernmommie* 
It's not assault when you grab their wrist and walk them to the parent. No police force would dispute that.


Ummm, yeah, actually it is. When you put your hands on someone unwanted and in a manner that could reasonably be construed to cause fear in that person, it is assault.


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## Kreeblim (Dec 19, 2009)

Quote:

It's not assault when you grab their wrist and walk them to the parent. No police force would dispute that.
I'd be less concerned with the legality of it than other issues. I've cringed in publc when I saw a mother practically dragging a child by the wrist, and seeing as the kid literally threw mulch in my face when I asked him to not throw it at the other kids, I doubt it would be as easy as leading him by the wrist. I have had to pick up my 2 year old mid-tantrum and carry him facing-outward under the armpits so he couldn't kick me, but this kid was like 5 and I can't imagine having to do that to someone else's child (or to one that large!).

It also wasn't a playground...it is a playgroup with classes in a nearby building for other kids, so although there were a couple of parents in eyeshot, most were in the building, up or downstairs, in rooms, possibly even outside around the whole other side of the building. I want to say I know what I would have done had it progressed further, but I have no idea, which is why I wanted to get opinions and ideas here. I CAN say that it would be very mentally difficult for me to get to a place where I could physically carry or drag somebody else's child around a building. Maybe if the mulch had been pitched right in my baby's face instead of mine it would have felt like more of an option...though for what it's worth I don't think he missed the baby out of any actual concern for him.


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

I have left playgroups and not gone back because of this type of behavior on the part of parents. It was a public thing so it was a whole group of people also using the place that I/our playgroup did not know. We quit going and i know a couple other moms did too specifically because of this other group of moms who sat in the corner talking and ignoring their kids--or when they'd *finally* intervene, it would be to time-out and laugh at/humiliate the then crying kid. (more the humiliation I didn't want to see than the timeout) It happened a few times over the course of a few weeks before we finally quit going.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

I would have been majorly pissed. I might have raised my voice and said "whose child is this" in hopes the kids parent was in the immediate area. If not, I'd be asking the parents around the corner if they had a son wearing a red shirt and baseball hat (or whatever he had on).

Throwing things in anyone's face is a major NO NO in my book and I know my temper would have pushed me to try and get to the bottom of it.
Once, at the playground, a 3 year old was throwing crab apples at me and my DS when he was still a baby. I asked her nicely to stop, that she could hurt someone and she kept doing it. I marched up to her and asked her where was her grownup? She pointed and then ran away. Luckily, we didn't get hit but OP, you did and I'm sorry for that.

What is wrong with people? I'm quite sure that is not that kid's first time behaving that way. he needs closer supervision.


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## elmh23 (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tsfairy* 
Or he's the kid whose parents use gentle discipline and are loving and caring but are at the end of their rope because despite all this, their kid is the one kid on the playground who always takes things too far, pushes and hits other kids, yells the loudest and gets the craziest. Parenting style can play a huge role in a kid's behavior, but personality and wiring are unique to each kid and you never know what else might be going on to cause this kind of behavior.

Yup. That's my three-year-old.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *southernmommie* 
It's not assault when you grab their wrist and walk them to the parent. No police force would dispute that.

Chances are, that if a kid did what the kid in the OP did, then he or she will not go with you without a fight, which would make it assault when you dislocate their elbow (which is actually really easy, but if a stranger did it to my kid, then you bet your bum I'd be getting the police involved, no matter what my kid did.)

OP, I don't know what I'd do. Usually it's my kid escalating things to that level







but I do appreciate when another parent lets me know what's going on (except that time another kid hit my kid first and then the first kids dad cussed me out, that was weird.)


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

I doubt it would be as easy as leading him by the wrist.
I've found telling children firmly to "Go to your mom or dad Right Now" to be really effective. The other option is "Take me to your Mom or Dad Right Now," so that you can explain to the parent what's going on.


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## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *southernmommie* 
I would grab that kid and go inside and start asking where this child's parent is. Then explain what happened. Then let the parent deal with it. But I would definitely have his arm in my hands around the wrist so that he would come with me and not run off. I don't care. I can't let another CHILD run around like a madman and hurt others.

*and if the parents didn't do anything about it and let him keep doing it, my family would leave the park immediately. And explain to the kids that we cannot stay where there is another kid that is going to hurt others. That way when they are at a park by themselves when older, they will leave if the same happens.

Um, if I saw an angry woman grab my kid there would be hell to pay. You don't put your hands on someone else's child. Period. Of course I watch my child so there would be no opportunity for that to happen but if I were you I would seriously reconsider this attitude.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *southernmommie* 
It's not assault when you grab their wrist and walk them to the parent. No police force would dispute that.

It is battery, assault if the person is afraid. Whether the police would "dispute" that is beside the point, really. It doesn't change what it is.

If the parent grabbed your wrist and dragged you because you had dragged the kid, would that be assault? battery? Right and moral?

My standards, and I'm guessing yours, are a heck of a lot higher than what a cop would put you in the car for or a judge would fine you for.

"Use your words" is not just for children.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
It is battery, assault if the person is afraid. Whether the police would "dispute" that is beside the point, really. It doesn't change what it is.

If the parent grabbed your wrist and dragged you because you had dragged the kid, would that be assault? battery? Right and moral?

My standards, and I'm guessing yours, are a heck of a lot higher than what a cop would put you in the car for or a judge would fine you for.

"Use your words" is not just for children.

Dragged me to the police after I refused to go to the police when asked after I'd been running around hitting people in the face with rocks? I'd probably try to get them charged with asssault/battery (because the sort of person who would hit other people in the face with rocks is just the sort of person to whine the most about anyone else touching them), but I wouldn't expect it to work.

ETA: I'd just tell the kid to stop it when I first saw he was scooping up rocks. "Hey, kiddo, everyone else is throwing leaves, I know you're just little, but I bet you can do a better job picking up ONLY leaves if you try." Basically assuming that the rocks are getting picked up because he's too young to be good at picking up leaves like the big kids and he just needs to take more care.


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *southernmommie* 
I would grab that kid and go inside and start asking where this child's parent is. Then explain what happened. Then let the parent deal with it. But I would definitely have his arm in my hands around the wrist so that he would come with me and not run off. I don't care. I can't let another CHILD run around like a madman and hurt others.

*and if the parents didn't do anything about it and let him keep doing it, my family would leave the park immediately. And explain to the kids that we cannot stay where there is another kid that is going to hurt others. That way when they are at a park by themselves when older, they will leave if the same happens.

Wow. I wouldn't manhandle my child unless there was an immediate safety concern (as in, she decides to have a tantrum in the middle of a crosswalk... THEN I would have no qualms about literally dragging her out of that situation), and there is no way I would consider manhandling another person's child, unless they were about to cause serious harm to themselves or others.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *southernmommie* 
It's not assault when you grab their wrist and walk them to the parent. No police force would dispute that.

You're right. It's battery. If the child was frightened while you attacked them, that is assault. And no police force would dispute that. And if you hurt another person's child, and the parent called the police, the police would be very happy to write up a report. It probably wouldn't get to that, because the parent is more likely to just punch you instead. And, not to be all internet lawyer, but if there are a lot of witnesses who see you hurting a child, a judge is probably not going to be all that sympathetic when that child's parent lashes out at you.

But please do not be blasé about hurting another person's child, no matter what the child is doing.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Dragged me to the police after I refused to go to the police when asked after I'd been running around hitting people in the face with rocks? I'd probably try to get them charged with asssault/battery (because the sort of person who would hit other people in the face with rocks is just the sort of person to whine the most about anyone else touching them), but I wouldn't expect it to work.

ETA: I'd just tell the kid to stop it when I first saw he was scooping up rocks. "Hey, kiddo, everyone else is throwing leaves, I know you're just little, but I bet you can do a better job picking up ONLY leaves if you try." Basically assuming that the rocks are getting picked up because he's too young to be good at picking up leaves like the big kids and he just needs to take more care.

I suggesting that if the parents retaliated against the person by grabbing the person who grabbed their child in retaliation for throwing mulch, it is clearly battery.

If the person who is retaliating against the mulch throwing child pops their shoulder or gives them nursemaid's elbow, does that make it clearer?

You cannot legally drag a child you do not know.

As for what I'd do...I"d stand with my back to the child while talking to them. I'd have no problem yelling "Hey, somebody's kid is really getting out of hand down here. Can I have some help?"


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I probably would take my children away from the park if rocks were being thrown and inform the other parents, "Excuse me. Not sure if you saw, but some of the older kids are throwing rocks and dirt at the littler ones. Just FYI, since there are some little ones over there." If they asked who, I would tell them. But yes, I would leave.

If for some reason the thrower engaged me, and threw dirt at me like that, I would definitely ask whose child it was and let them know that their child threw dirt in my face.

I would not be comfortable with physically disciplining an unknown child in any way, with the exception of immediate danger to life and limb, but even then, I'd do it with trepidation. Some people are completely irrational and they don't care if you saved a child's life. To them--you touch their child, you pay them money. They can justify anything in their heads. The police don't decide--the judge does.

Quote:

I've found telling children firmly to "Go to your mom or dad Right Now" to be really effective. The other option is "Take me to your Mom or Dad Right Now," so that you can explain to the parent what's going on.
This sometimes works.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 

You cannot legally drag a child you do not know.

While in reality, not many people would actually grab and drag a child somewhere, it still makes most people WANT to. Most people will be very angry at that child, and while we might think "He must have horrible parents", a lot of people will just be mad at the child. Many people will call him a brat, or monster or something right to his face. He is the kid who needs constant supervision to protect him from himself and others. The average five year old won't throw dirt at an adult who is telling him to stop throwing dirt. So, either his parents are in denial, don't care, or really just want a break from him even though he's bothering others.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I agree not many people would grab the child forcefully. However one poster said,

"I would grab that kid and go inside and start asking where this child's parent is. Then explain what happened. Then let the parent deal with it. But I would definitely have his arm in my hands around the wrist so that he would come with me and not run off. I don't care."

That's what I'm responding to.

If people are unwilling to go let the other parents know what is happening out of their sight, I just don't think there's a way to know what manner of parenting the child has.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

"Um, if I saw an angry woman grab my kid there would be hell to pay. You don't put your hands on someone else's child. Period."

... And this is why we have such horrible behavior on the playground. Parents aren't omniscient, cannot be in all places at once, and other adults are so worried about encountering an hysteric who won't seek the facts before she calls the cops that they they don't physically intervene even when the safety of others demands it.

If a child of five threw anything into my face or the face of another person, they would have my two hands on their shoulders and my loud voice calling for backup until I could physically hand them over to their caregiver.

This is not assault. This is an adult protecting all the kids (including the thrower!) from consequences that they aren't yet capable of comprehending. I have actually been through a similar incident before, and luckily the mom was smart enough to not to start shrieking about assault, but to thank me, assume control of her child, and take him out of the situation.


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## IntuitiveJamie (Jun 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
All I know is that I'd want you to seek me out if it were my kid doing it, because I'd want to know that I had misjudged my child's level of responsibility and that I needed to be closer when he was playing.

1000% agree! I had an experience at the park not that long ago and I was being to chatty with another Mom and not paying attn. to my kids behavior. The next thing I know this other Mom is calling to me saying "Can you tell your kid to stop hitting mine!" I jumped up and said "I absolutely can!!" and took care of the situation and profusely apologized for not keeping a better eye on my child.

I don't tolerate that behavior from my children and I do not tolerate it from other children either. I would have said something to the parent for sure.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

... And this is why we have such horrible behavior on the playground.
It is absolutely not necessary to grab the child before seeking out the parents. You can get your own kids, seek out the parents, demand they protect the other kids, and threaten law enforcement. There's no need to grab another kid and it's just not done.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

I think it absolutely is. Grabbing my own kids doesn't protect the eyes of the other people in range.

I'm not grab-happy in general, but a child who gets dangerously physical in my zone is going to be stopped, physically, by me every. single. time., because I would rather have words with a clueless parent than see damage done where I could have prevented it by acting with common sense.


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## Marissamom (Dec 17, 2009)

I would do two things for the future. because this kid seems to be at risk for getting out of hand, I would try to figure out who he belongs to. also, I would talk to as many of the other parents as possible something like "last time there was an issue with kids throwing dirt at people, and DH and I were the only parents close enough to the playground to notice. I would really appreciate it if everyone tried to help keep an eye on the kids so things don't get out of hand again". that way hopefully if things do start to get out of hand again there will at least be some backup for you.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie* 
I think it absolutely is. Grabbing my own kids doesn't protect the eyes of the other people in range.

I'm not grab-happy in general, but a child who gets dangerously physical in my zone is going to be stopped, physically, by me every. single. time., because I would rather have words with a clueless parent than see damage done where I could have prevented it by acting with common sense.

So... leave the zone! Why do you need to control that child? It's a public space. If you feel others are in danger, warn the others. "There's a kid in a red tee-shirt throwing dirt and rocks instead of leaves. We're leaving. You might want to get your kids."

To me, that is common sense, not trying to parent another kid when you don't even know whether his parents are there or what they want.

But then... I don't have time for other people's drama. I have enough in my own life!


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

"If you feel others are in danger, warn the others. "There's a kid in a red tee-shirt throwing dirt and rocks instead of leaves. We're leaving. You might want to get your kids."

"Just walk away" is not an appropriate reaction to violence in a public space. It's when a critical mass of people become cowed and and flee instead of intervening and demanding that standards of behavior be enforced that a park/street/neighborhood/school/transit system becomes a chronically unsafe place. Sometimes, intervention is as drastic as calling the cops, sometimes it's as mild as calling out to another parent who isn't noticing something their kid is doing, and a lot of the time it's in between.

Immediate safety issues aside (because it's not OK for _anyone_ to have rocks flung in their face, even if me and mine are walking out of range!), a young child whose social experiences teach him that he do something as drastic as throwing rocks at a person's eyes without being immediately, physically stopped and delivered into the hands of his caregiver by the nearest adult present is a child who is being done a great disservice by _every adult around him_. He's learning that he can hurt people and no outside authority will stop him. He's learning that violence is a successful strategy for dominating people and seizing control of his environment. He's also learning that the adults around him *fundamentally don't care about him and don't consider themselves part of his community in any way*. If they did, they would extend themselves to see that his error was acknowledged and corrected by his caregiver, because it would matter to them that he (or she!) grow up to meet the standards for behavior in public spaces.

Again, a version of this has happened to me IRL, and all I got from the mother who came running up when she saw me in the crowd of kids was "thank you." But if she had not been willing to be reasonable, again, I'd rather have had a fight with her than see anybody else get a faceful of projectiles because I refused to put myself in the middle and physically stop the throwing. That's the example I choose to set for my own kids, and for all the other adults milling around. It is sick and strange that we are so reluctant to wade into the kid-herd and shut down the socially unacceptable activity. I'm not raising bystanders to violence - I'm raising interventionists.


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## rlynn08 (Jun 22, 2008)

i think this is a hard one. i would have to be in the situation before i would know what i would do. i do know i can't say i would never directly intervene because it just depends on what is going on. usually, if something that is happening that my child is upset over and is genuinely unfair, i give her the words for her to stand up for herself. i let her know she can say, "stop. i don't like that." and then i stand close by and yes, i give her those words out loud and in the presence of the child so they not only hear it from her but they've already heard it from me...usually the child in question just stops and walks away. if someone is being unsafe but its not an immediate danger...i say calmly, "please watch the little ones, you could hurt them." "no pushing" "wait your turn, please." or whatever makes sense in the situation.

i have never encountered a situation where i felt my child or any other was in serious danger because of another young one but i do know that when another child has made a move to hit my kid or another i do step in. if i am close by, i put my hand out quickly to stop the blow. and say in a calm voice, not mean, not scary..."hey, thats not cool, don't hit. you could really hurt someone." if i am not close by and the blow connects then i comfort the hurt child and again say, "hey thats not cool, don't hit."

that said, before i had a child i was in a situation where i felt that a preteen was in danger because of another preteen. it was at a skate park where i and my friend were the only adults nearby. the few other adults were in their parked cars several yards away. it was a clear case of bullying and another preteen had taken a boy's inline skates. he was getting ready to whip them at the boy's head. i did step in and used the sternest voice i could to tell him to stop and to give back the skates NOW. he stopped and gave them back but later went after the other boy again and was pummeling him. i did lay my hands on the preteen then. i pulled him off the other kid and told him i would not allow him to hurt someone else. he screamed at me to F off and that he would go get his big brother to which i told him that if he felt the need to do so he was welcome to go get him because i would like to talk to him. i said this calmly. he left the park and did not return. the other boy came up and thanked me and told me that the aggressive boy was always picking on him and that he had been scared and and was so happy i had helped him. i have no idea if i would have been legally liable for laying my hands on the boy but thats a risk i was willing to take. its a risk i would still be willing to take.

so if the situation is a clear case of bullying and there is a real concern for serious harm, i would step in. i was bullied as a young child and the adults around me ignored it. this was traumatizing for me. i feel that as a society we don't stand up enough. we are too into our individualism in the US sometimes. yes, everyone has individual rights but that extends to other people as well. and when your "rights" infringe on other people in a harmful way, people should step in.

in this particular situation, it would be hard for me because the boy is so young and i have seen children do similar things without maliciousness. they aren't making the connections between if i do this, it could hurt someone. i am not saying they aren't capable of making that connection but that generally they are hyped up and so far into the moment of having fun that they aren't able to work through the cause/effect rationally. i've seen children push my child off the stairs of the slide (thankfully she hadn't quite gotten up very high) not because they want to hurt her but because they are having so much fun they aren't thinking. now i realize this boy was throwing rocks into people's faces but the other kids were throwing things as well (yes, leaves, but still) and i would be hesitant to say that he was intentionally throwing things because he WANTED to hurt someone. could that have been the case? i suppose but just saying i am hesitant to assume that other little kids are out to intentionally hurt others. it just sounds to me that he was really into the moment of throwing things at people like all the other kids and wasn't stopping to think about the consequences of throwing rocks. i know the OP said she asked him to stop and he threw them at her face but again...while my daughter hasn't thrown rocks at me and is generally pretty gentle...i know that if she is hyped up and i ask her to stop doing something, she often doesn't stop not to be "bad" but because she can't control herself. i probably would have gone looking for his parents and said something like, "hey is anyone the parent of the little boy in (insert identifiable clothing)...he's throwing rocks at other children and i know when my child does stuff like that i like to know about it." no so far my kid hasn't done that but i think it helps to take the sting off.

however, you mentioned this was a playgroup. i think if theres a way to bring it up, i would mention that perhaps leaving children unsupervised isn't the best route. the parents in my opinion should be fairly close so they can keep an eye on their children. i have to say that when older kids have pushed my child off the stairs of the slide or just pushed her out of the way in general, my initial annoyance has less to do with the kid and more to do with the the absence of an aware parent or caregiver. yes, we all need breaks but the park amongst other little children isn't the place for a full pass from parenting.


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## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie* 
"Um, if I saw an angry woman grab my kid there would be hell to pay. You don't put your hands on someone else's child. Period."

... And this is why we have such horrible behavior on the playground. Parents aren't omniscient, cannot be in all places at once, and other adults are so worried about encountering an hysteric who won't seek the facts before she calls the cops that they they don't physically intervene even when the safety of others demands it.

If a child of five threw anything into my face or the face of another person, they would have my two hands on their shoulders and my loud voice calling for backup until I could physically hand them over to their caregiver.

This is not assault. This is an adult protecting all the kids (including the thrower!) from consequences that they aren't yet capable of comprehending. I have actually been through a similar incident before, and luckily the mom was smart enough to not to start shrieking about assault, but to thank me, assume control of her child, and take him out of the situation.

If you are physically restraining a child to prevent them from hurting another child in the absence of their caregiver that is totally different. Grabbing the child by the arm instead of going to find his caregiver is another. I am a parent that watches her child at the playground and have on many occasions had to speak to other kids at the playground/pool who were doing something dangerous and/or making it utterly impossible for the other children to enjoy themselves. Speaking the them "Please don't swing that stick close to other children" or whatever has almost always worked. I have once or twice went to find that child's caregiver if they continued the behavior. Putting your hands on someone elses' child is not OK.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

"If you are physically restraining a child to prevent them from hurting another child in the absence of their caregiver that is totally different."

I see your point. I have never tried to "drag" a violent kid anywhere, and it's only the one time that I've laid hands on a kid whose parent I didn't know in anything but the "blocking a fist" maneuver when they tried to strike another child.

But fundamentally, I think that there are many common situations in a playground environment where the safest, sanest course of action is for the closest adult to physically intervene. Anybody who disagrees with my judgement call on that will doubtless inform me at the top of their lungs, and I'm fine with that as long as they combine their yelling with getting their butt over to their kid and taking responsibility for him/her.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

"Just walk away" is not an appropriate reaction to violence in a public space.
Really? You don't leave and call the cops? You try to solve the problem yourself?

Quote:

He's also learning that the adults around him fundamentally don't care about him and don't consider themselves part of his community in any way.
I would think the children would learn that even adults appeal to a community authority, that there are community rules and that they will be enforced, and it's not to be decided on an individual, case-by-case basis depending on who's there.

I mean... you'd be amazed how many people have different standards of violence and acceptability than you. So suppose you drag the child over and the parents insist that even with small rocks, "they're just having fun!"

What he learns then is that he can appeal to his parents and doesn't need to listen to other adults.

I don't believe justice is to be meted out by whoever's nearby. Yes, of course, protect children and others when necessary, but it's not up to us to apprehend the perp right there and then.

Quote:

I'm not raising bystanders to violence - I'm raising interventionists.
I didn't say stand by. I said, don't get involved in the drama. Tell the relevant authority and leave. Follow up if necessary.

Because... what if your kids are on their own? They can't bring that child home. What are they supposed to do? If you model *informing the authorities and staying away from drama* then that is what they will do. If you model *using superior physical force to apprehend the bully* then they might be lost, because who knows if they have superior physical force?


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie* 
"If you feel others are in danger, warn the others. "There's a kid in a red tee-shirt throwing dirt and rocks instead of leaves. We're leaving. You might want to get your kids."

"Just walk away" is not an appropriate reaction to violence in a public space. It's when a critical mass of people become cowed and and flee instead of intervening and demanding that standards of behavior be enforced that a park/street/neighborhood/school/transit system becomes a chronically unsafe place. Sometimes, intervention is as drastic as calling the cops, sometimes it's as mild as calling out to another parent who isn't noticing something their kid is doing, and a lot of the time it's in between.

Immediate safety issues aside (because it's not OK for _anyone_ to have rocks flung in their face, even if me and mine are walking out of range!), a young child whose social experiences teach him that he do something as drastic as throwing rocks at a person's eyes without being immediately, physically stopped and delivered into the hands of his caregiver by the nearest adult present is a child who is being done a great disservice by _every adult around him_. He's learning that he can hurt people and no outside authority will stop him. He's learning that violence is a successful strategy for dominating people and seizing control of his environment. He's also learning that the adults around him *fundamentally don't care about him and don't consider themselves part of his community in any way*. If they did, they would extend themselves to see that his error was acknowledged and corrected by his caregiver, because it would matter to them that he (or she!) grow up to meet the standards for behavior in public spaces.


Exactly. Seriously I am NOT running away from a freaking 5 year old. A 5 year old does not 'own' the park and is not in control there. This is why people think GD means that the child runs the show!


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

"Really? You don't leave and call the cops? You try to solve the problem yourself?"

When it's a 5 year-old? Abso-freaking-lutely. IMO, calling the cops and/or fleeing the playground is the "drama" option in that scenario, and standing your ground and enforcing the social contract is the "non-drama" option.

I have never called the cops in my life. I would do it, if I had to, but I've never run across a situation yet that I couldn't manage by asserting myself. To be fair, I have mostly lived in very boring places


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie* 
"Really? You don't leave and call the cops? You try to solve the problem yourself?"

When it's a 5 year-old? Abso-freaking-lutely. IMO, calling the cops and/or fleeing the playground is the "drama" option in that scenario, and standing your ground and enforcing the social contract is the "non-drama" option.

I have never called the cops in my life. I would do it, if I had to, but I've never run across a situation yet that I couldn't manage by asserting myself. To be fair, I have mostly lived in very boring places









If it's not bad enough to call the cops, then why do you have to stay around and create drama?

Why can't you just go tell the parents?

On the one hand, this scenario has a person physically removing a child from the others for the others' safety.

On the other hand, we're talking about a scenario where the parents can't be called over; the cops need not be called; and things seem to be just not that big of a deal.

Quote:

This is why people think GD means that the child runs the show!
What does gentle discipline have to do with neglecting your child and modeling violent behavior? If my kids are endangering others, I physically redirect them and if necessary, enforce a time-out. I just don't discipline other people's kids when they are clearly beyond hope. (ETA... I mean at that moment, just saying, "Please stop throwing rocks" is not going to help... this is a serious situation.)

If a FIVE YEAR OLD is throwing ROCKS in the faces of adults... well, I don't really know where to begin. Am I supposed to call a counselor for the child as well?

I'm not saying I'd call the cops. I'm saying, if I felt the situation had to be handled by someone other than the parents, I would. Not take it into my own hands.

Quote:

I am NOT running away from a freaking 5 year old. A 5 year old does not 'own' the park and is not in control there.
I don't look at it as running away. I could EASILY do pretty much whatever I wanted to or with a small bully and have my way. I'm not afraid of him.

I choose not to participate in that crazy. I'm not going to engage with someone that throws rocks, unless it's my child and I have to. Not gonna drag, not gonna stand and be thrown stuff at, not gonna do anything more than inform the parental group. If the parents aren't interested in raising their child... then we're not going to hang out there. Just like if there's an adult fight and I tell them to take it elsewhere and they throw a punch, and I call the authorities (that would be the police...) and they say, "Meh. No biggy."

And if my child does it, guess what. She's leaving that park and not going back for a long, long time.

Quote:

the adults around him fundamentally don't care about him
You know... I think if someone throws rocks at me, I really do not care enough to continue having rocks thrown at my face. Yeah, my message would be, "Throwing rocks isn't acceptable. I'm leaving."

Because the child doesn't want the park to himself, you know. He doesn't win. He wants to engage other people on his own violent terms, and continuing to engage in that is actually rewarding it. If everyone leaves, he loses, and ultimately, faces the true consequence for his actions.

If you grab him and it becomes all about him, he has every reason to continue every time he gets to the park.

Leaving for me is not about punishing the child. It's about choosing a happier path for my family. However, I do not think it's letting the child off the hook, either. Engaging with bullies and having a big to-do does not teach them anything, except that they control the interaction.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

I understand your position, but I disagree.

Hey, this gives me a chance to share my new favorite sign









http://s-ak.buzzfed.com/static/enhan...8475131-12.jpg


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## wytchywoman (Nov 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie* 
"Um, if I saw an angry woman grab my kid there would be hell to pay. You don't put your hands on someone else's child. Period."

... And this is why we have such horrible behavior on the playground. Parents aren't omniscient, cannot be in all places at once, and other adults are so worried about encountering an hysteric who won't seek the facts before she calls the cops that they they don't physically intervene even when the safety of others demands it.

Wrong! We have problems on the playground because too many parents think that a trip to the playground = break time. And they park their butt on a bench and let their kids go off and play without close supervision. Parents don't have to be _omniscient_, they do have to be _present_ That's not that hard to do.

The fix in this situation is not grabbing the kid and dragging them over to the closest set of adults and hope that one of them is the parent. The child doesn't have to be present for you to locate the parent and describe the behavior. I am with the rest of the mamas here. I don't care what my son is doing, no one ever grabs my kid and drags them anywhere. Period. Then again I would know it was taking place because I am right there with my son anyway.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

@ Smithie, LOL, I LOVE that sign. Did you go to the RtRS? I was looking at their signs all night last night. Waaaay too late on the computer.







y


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

Nope, didn't go. I was doing exactly what you were doing. Up until 2 a.m. surfing for sign pics.


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

I would have yelled: "STOP THROWING ROCKS NOW!" in a loud and firm voice. This would have given the other parents/adults around information about what was going on and portrayed my feelings about the action. It would also have modeled what I would want *my* kid to do if someone threw rocks at him.

ETA: And then I would have gone up to the other adults on the playground and said, "Yo, that kid just threw rocks and mulch in my face and my kids' faces!!!" Then waited for someone to own up to knowing him (his parents or friends) or at least know that now there were several adults who knew what had happened and could keep an eye on their own kid(s) and the other kid.


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## jeslynn (Jul 23, 2010)

Oh man. I am so sorry you had to deal with that.

We had to deal with something similar at my sons birthday party. We had it at the park and the field next to us about 500 adults were playing/watching a soccer game. All the kids came near our pavillion and were playing with the party kids. I didn't have a problem until they tried to throw buckets of water on my son and then pushed him over and gave him a cut!! I was FURIOUS! There was simply no way I could have found his parents in the big crowd, so I called the park and had them deal with it.

Infuriating!!!


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