# WWYD: Wouldn't Let Me Rear-Face



## ChemGeek (Feb 4, 2007)

My almost 2 year old (June 7th 2006) is 24 pounds and we still have him rear-facing in his carseat that allows for rear-facing up to 30 pounds. It says so RIGHT on the carseat.

I've been having some trouble with my car seat being more "wiggly" than the 1 inch that is safe and no matter how hard I pull on the stupid strap it won't tighten anymore. So I was happy to see a car seat inspection at the local fire station today because I felt they could help me address my situation and tell me if I needed an entirely new seat.

WRONG

The fireman told me that "he's over 20 pounds and over 1 so he needs to be forward facing" and that I'm putting my son in danger keeping him rear-facing because he could "break a leg" in a crash. I showed him the sticker that says he can rear-face until 30 pounds. I told him the AAP says that extended rear-facing is the safest... he didn't care.

The thing that ticked me off the most was that he wouldn't let me leave until the carseat was installed forward-facing. I literally was held hostage there until I submitted and let them flip the car seat around.

I am a firm believer in extended rear facing. My almost 2 year old (who is my #3 child btw, it's not like I'm new to this whole car seat thing) is a short 33 inches tall and he's thin at 24 pounds. He's well within the guidelines to continue to be rear-facing in the car seat he's using.

I, personally, want him to stay rear-facing for as long as possible. It's really frustrating to me that someone who is supposed to know about safety is so ignorant about car seats. You don't *have* to switch them at 20 pounds and 1 year but that's what he argued with me about for a good 30-45 minutes.

Finally I just wanted to leave and stop being held hostage so I let them put it forward facing and brought it home and flipped it back to rear-facing.

Should I write a letter to the Fire Chief? Someone else? Do nothing? I'm really really angry over this because I was treated like I was an incompetent parent over this issue.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Wow. I would email the state SK coodinator in your state and tell them exactly what you just said here. That is NOT what SK endorses.

ETA: Are you sure it was a tech? Look him up here. If he's not on there, he's not a tech, so I would just write one heck of a nasty letter to the fire department.


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## SumnerRain (Nov 26, 2005)

I would write a letter to the Fire Chief for sure. Hopefully they start requiring better training.


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

There's an organization of car seat techs you can email about the situation. I have no idea what it is, though.

How infuriating!

I had a tech who was incredulous that my 16 mo was rear facing, and I educated him on the benefits of ERF. The other tech who was working with him said he was impressed with my knowledge and wish more people understood the benefts of RFing as long as possible.

Ugh, I'm POed for you!


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## ChemGeek (Feb 4, 2007)

aurora -

I know I should get 10 lashings for this but I don't remember his name. I was so floored that he was arguing with me and trying to deal with my toddler than I forgot to write it down and by the time I got home and the steam stopped coming out of my ears I had forgotten.

Also... this question is for anyone...

when they flipped it forward-facing they put the straps up to the top level which means the straps are above his shoulders. I need to put them back down a level so they are at or below his shoulders for rear-facing, right?


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChemGeek* 
aurora -

I know I should get 10 lashings for this but I don't remember his name. I was so floored that he was arguing with me and trying to deal with my toddler than I forgot to write it down and by the time I got home and the steam stopped coming out of my ears I had forgotten.

Also... this question is for anyone...

when they flipped it forward-facing they put the straps up to the top level which means the straps are above his shoulders. I need to put them back down a level so they are at or below his shoulders for rear-facing, right?

Call the fire station and ask who can check your car seat, and write down his name









Yes, definitely move them back down so they are at or below the shoulder when you turn his seat back around. What seat do you have?


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

If it turns out that the guy is not a CPST (and I cannot imagine that he is unless he slept through the whole course!) I would contact people in your area who ARE and let them know that this is going on. They might want to do some public awareness to get the message out.

Maybe your local news stations would be interested in doing a little investigative piece on it.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

uh, yeh..write a letter to a lot of ppl!!! the Fire Chief..Safe Kids, etc. etc. etc. i woulld be more than glad to help you write the letter if you want...i can NOT believe that.

i am astonished at the treatment you received. i can not believe that (and ive really tried lately not to get upset at car seat issues! lol!).

i am so sorry...but yeh, letter writing time.

NO child has ever broken their legs ....i would rather broken legs than a snapped off head!!! omg i am so angry for you right now.


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## ChemGeek (Feb 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Call the fire station and ask who can check your car seat, and write down his name









LOL! I might have to do that.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
What seat do you have?

Evenflo Triumph. It's one of the "older" models because we got it when he was born 2 years ago, I know the newer Triumph's go to 35 pounds rear-facing. It was the only one I could find in my town that would fit rear-facing in my car at the time. The others (Britax, Graco) reclined too far and ended up hitting the seat in front of it.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChemGeek* 
Evenflo Triumph. It's one of the "older" models because we got it when he was born 2 years ago, I know the newer Triumph's go to 35 pounds rear-facing. It was the only one I could find in my town that would fit rear-facing in my car at the time. The others (Britax, Graco) reclined too far and ended up hitting the seat in front of it.

Just keep an eye on the top of your DS's head in relation to the top of the seat. The Triumphs are normally outgrown RF'ing by height by 1.5-2 yrs of age


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## ChemGeek (Feb 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette* 
If it turns out that the guy is not a CPST (and I cannot imagine that he is unless he slept through the whole course!) I would contact people in your area who ARE and let them know that this is going on. They might want to do some public awareness to get the message out.

Yea I don't know if he is or not. I do know there was a CPST there because I told her "I'm a fan of extended rear-facing" and she said "me too" but she also said she "can't go against what they say" and gave me her name and phone number to call her if I could "prove" my seat allowed him to rear-face at his height and she'd flip it back around for me. I was like AHHHHHHH!!!!

So I'm going to call and rip her a new one for not standing up for the safety of my child. She said she's the CPST for the local hospital (well one of the local hospitals).


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## ChemGeek (Feb 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
uh, yeh..write a letter to a lot of ppl!!! the Fire Chief..Safe Kids, etc. etc. etc. i woulld be more than glad to help you write the letter if you want...i can NOT believe that.

I have a draft written that I'd be happy to email you if you want to help me proof it. =-)


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## ChemGeek (Feb 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Just keep an eye on the top of your DS's head in relation to the top of the seat. The Triumphs are normally outgrown RF'ing by height by 1.5-2 yrs of age









*nod* The manual says as long as his head is lower than 1 inch from the top of the seat and he's such a short little thing (like 20th percentile) that he's got a few inches to go. And after that I was going to just grab a different seat that forward faced to 65 pounds (and rear faced more than 30) and see if he would fit rear-facing in one of them even longer.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChemGeek* 
It was the only one I could find in my town that would fit rear-facing in my car at the time. The others (Britax, Graco) reclined too far and ended up hitting the seat in front of it.

FWIW they can be installed pretty upright as long as the baby has head control.

-Angela


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## ChemGeek (Feb 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
FWIW they can be installed pretty upright as long as the baby has head control.

I didn't know that! I can move it out of the "fully reclined" position even rear-facing? That's good to know, thanks.

Thanks to everyone for all your input, I really do appreciate it.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Start by reporting the incident to SafeKids. Even if you don't have his name, give the fire station name and the date and time you were there.

Then write a letter to the fire chief, and explain you will not be backing down until you here FROM THIS GUY that he made a mistake and from the chief that this man will NOT be allowed to do car seat checks until he has remedial training.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChemGeek* 
and gave me her name and phone number to call her if I could "prove" my seat allowed him to rear-face at his height and she'd flip it back around for me. I was like AHHHHHHH!!!!

i thought it said it right on the seat??


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## ChemGeek (Feb 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
i thought it said it right on the seat??

It said right on the seat that it would rear-face from 5-30 pounds and she conceded on that issues; but, she disagreed on whether the "height of 40 inches" was for forward-facing only.

The thing is, if she knew the AAP guidelines of head not above the top of the seat or the general guideline that seems to be pretty common with the car seat manufacturers (flipping when the head is 1 inch from top of seat) this wouldn't have been an issue because my son meets neither criteria at this point.

Edit: PassionateWriter - I emailed you with the letter I've drafted. Thanks again for your help.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

This combined with the experience future MIL had with the local fire department.... I won't be going there for carseat checks. Ever.

Future MIL's neighbor gave her a carseat for her car to use with my DS. Of course, I checked it over first. It was OLD. As in, it expired YEARS ago. I encouraged her to destroy it. She took it to the fire department, thinking they would get rid of it for her. Wrong. They looked at it, said it was fine (it didn't have any obvious cracks in the plastic) and told her that even though it was expired, that it was still fine to use!!!! I'm not talking a carseat that expired last month. I'm talking, this carseat expired a long time ago (if I remember correctly, it expired about 3 years ago). Even though future MIL's neighbor wasn't even the first owner and no-one could even say with 100% certaintly that it hadn't been in an accident, and it was over 3 years expired, they told her it was safe to use. She said she didn't want it and would feel better if they destroyed it. They refused. Wouldn't even take it. Future MIL had to take it home with her!


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
ETA: Are you sure it was a tech? Look him up here. If he's not on there, he's not a tech, so I would just write one heck of a nasty letter to the fire department.

I thought that techs can choose to NOT be listed on that?
I asked the other forum because I've gone to 3 very lousy checks and when I checked the for the names of the techs they weren't on there and it sort of bothered me that people who'd do seat checks would not be listed.
Then I asked the people from car-seat.org and they said that not ALL CPST's are listed there. Only those who choose to.







:


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grumpybear* 
I thought that techs can choose to NOT be listed on that?
I asked the other forum because I've gone to 3 very lousy checks and when I checked the for the names of the techs they weren't on there and it sort of bothered me that people who'd do seat checks would not be listed.
Then I asked the people from car-seat.org and they said that not ALL CPST's are listed there. Only those who choose to.







:

Hmmm, I didn't realize that. I know that all of our local techs are listed, even though some are not active at all.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

I think most are listed there, you can choose what info to put and some will choose nothing. I can understand this in the case of being a police officer etc, not wanting your personal info out there. I have no other info out there, so you can find me there.









The old Triumphs rf to 30#, you know that.







The middle or top slots can be used for ffing, so if he is under 30# and under the middle slots, he could've used those for ffing. Evan was only 33.5" and 24.5# at 24 mos, he's barely bigger than that now at 42 mos and still rfing just fine.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Years ago before my son was born we were trying to get his seat installed before his birth. I went to the local fire station as someone said they knew about car seats, and I was stupid enough to go there and not find a real tech. The guy helping me was nice, but obviously clueless, and certainly wasn't a tech. He had his just 1 year old forward facing, as he pointed out his car seat in his truck was the same as mine. I then called the highway patrol and found the REAL tech. He was very helpful, and instructed me on the use of pool noodles for proper angling in my car.


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## ChemGeek (Feb 4, 2007)

I'm such a huge pot stirrer...

I'm a chemist by trade so I'm all about actual scientific data and don't rely on random websites to get my info.

Over the weekend I've been doing my research in order to write the letter to the Fire Dept. (Etc..) about the car seat issue I had on Saturday. I found the AAP stance on extended rear-facing, I found some statement from some car seat guru (I forget his name right now) also supporting the fact kids should rear-face until 30-35 pounds. But I also wanted to address the statement that I was told I'm putting my son "in danger" because "he could break a leg" and what a horrible neglectful parent I am.

The *only* thing I could find that addressed the fact that there have been no documented cases of broken legs/hips in extended rear-facing situations was a quote from a PhD in an MSNBC article.

I went to my University library and did some journal article searches to support the statement and I couldn't really find anything. I used author-finder to find articles by the scientist; however, I didn't have full access to the articles and I didn't want to interlibrary loan a bunch of articles that won't help me in the long run because that just means more work for librarians for no reason.

SOOoo (sorry I'm getting wordy) I decided to google the PhD quoted in the article and found her email address (Yay for modern technology) and I emailed her and told her, briefly, what happened and how I would really love to have a citation or two to use in my letter rather than the MSNBC article from 2005 only because I'm a scientist and I like peer-reviewed more than I like MSNBC.

Evidently she read my letter because she sent it along to someone that she works with so she could help me with the journal article citations and that person contacted me and she also forwarded it along to some uppity up in Safe Kids who ALSO contacted me about the issue..

*giggle* I'm totally a pot stirrer. But I'm glad!


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

You're awesome


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## Synchro246 (Aug 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChemGeek* 
I didn't know that! I can move it out of the "fully reclined" position even rear-facing? That's good to know, thanks.

Thanks to everyone for all your input, I really do appreciate it.

Double check you manual. I'm unsure if the Triumph can be moved out of the "fully reclined" position for RF. Certainly you can manually adust the recline on the seat when you install it by pushing down on the edge of the carseat closest to the back of the vehicle.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Synchro246* 
Double check you manual. I'm unsure if the Triumph can be moved out of the "fully reclined" position for RF. Certainly you can manually adust the recline on the seat when you install it by pushing down on the edge of the carseat closest to the back of the vehicle.

You are correct. I have an old Triumph and you have to use the most reclined position for rear-facing. There are other tricks to installing it more upright, in the most reclined position







I have found that it installs rather upright in general, and if I need a 45* angle it requires a towel or noodle.


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## crazydiamond (May 31, 2005)

Awesome, Chemgeek! I'm a science geek too and would have totally done the same thing!


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grumpybear* 
I thought that techs can choose to NOT be listed on that?
not ALL CPST's are listed there. Only those who choose to.







:

Correct. And proper procedure is for all techs to carry a copy of their CPST license with them to all car seat checks so that if asked, they can readily produce proof of current licensure.


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## Redheaded_Momma (Nov 8, 2006)

I would be sending a letter to that fire station for sure. That is just ridiculous!!


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Did you hear anything back yet? I'm dying to know how this turns out!


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## Mandynee22 (Nov 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Wow. I would email the state SK coodinator in your state and tell them exactly what you just said here. That is NOT what SK endorses.

ETA: Are you sure it was a tech? Look him up here. If he's not on there, he's not a tech, so I would just write one heck of a nasty letter to the fire department.


Thank you for that link! I had a similar problem I posted about some time ago and shockingly enough- the guy isn't a tech who said FFing would be best...

ETA: and then I saw the post that said it isn't mandatory to be listed... so nevermind.
Yay for you, OP, for stirring


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

Quote:

But I also wanted to address the statement that I was told I'm putting my son "in danger" because "he could break a leg" and what a horrible neglectful parent I am.
not to mention...broken leg, broken neck....not a contest!


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