# Should you tell your child..



## Canadianmommax3 (Mar 6, 2006)

that they aren't very good at something?

(not sure where this belongs)

yes i was watching American Idol last night, and one of the girls singing seriously thought she was really good. She was absolutely devestated when she was told that she couldn't sing. She bawled her eyes out when she went out to see her parents.
I noticed with most of the kids that can't sing the parents are right there telling them that the judges are wrong, they can sing.

Now i have one son who sounds horrible when he sings (takes after me), he knows he can't sing. I haven't come right out and said you are a horrible singer but we do joke about it. He knows he is better at other things.

So are these parents doing their children a disservice by letting them embarrass themselves in front of millions?
Would you not at some point tell them nicely that they aren't very good or do the parents not hear what we hear??

I really felt bad for this one girl because she seemed shocked and devestated that they said she wasn't any good.


----------



## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Personally, yes....I would tell my kid if I truly thought he wasn't good at something. Especially if he planned on embarrassing himself in front of the world.

But then again, there are things like art, in which everyone has a different opinion. I mean, lots of people thought that Picasso's paintings weren't worthy of being called art. What if someone told him that he sucked, and he stopped?

I think it depends on the situation. I prefer to compliment my kids on what they ARE good at than to point out what they're not good at. And I'll bet that this little girl on American Idol would never have gotten that far without her parents pumping her up. If she truly was a bad singer, then they were mean for giving her false compliments.


----------



## puddingpop (Feb 1, 2004)

Hmmm... I've known since senior kindergarten that I couldn't sing well. I came home from school, singing Frère Jacques and my mom told me I was flat. So I tried again and I was apparently still flat.
Not wanting to be embarrassed, I mouthed the words whenever I was in choir so that nobody would ever be subjected to my attempts at singing. Now, I sing for DS -- and he sometimes screws up his face at me like "eww".
In many ways, I'm glad my mom told me that I wasn't a good singer, because I know that I have a pretty warped view of my abilities, and still am somewhat convinced that my voice is pretty decent (DH assures me, though, that it's not!). I know that I would have embarrassed myself singing loudly in choir or trying out for school musicals and whatnot.
However, I know I'd have a really tough time telling DS something similar. Ah, I just don't know.


----------



## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

I wouldn't say they suck, but we're a jokester family and would say something like, "don't quit your day job". I think it's downright mean to encourage publicizing a skill that they suck at


----------



## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

i wouldn't tell my young child that she wasn't a good singer, because kids take joy in singing.


----------



## Canadianmommax3 (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Synthea™* 
I wouldn't say they suck, but we're a jokester family and would say something like, "don't quit your day job". I think it's downright mean to encourage publicizing a skill that they suck at









that is kind of how we are.


----------



## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

I wouldn't tell them they were BAD at it, but I also wouldn't give them false hope by complimenting their talents, etc.


----------



## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

There are lots of role models for people without traditional singing voices that have done well for themselves and I would let my DS know that (Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen, my crush Tom Waits etc - most rock stars wouldn't make it past AI first round auditions), but also be really honest about what his voice (or any skill) limits are, if he was old enough to think about entering a competition, and what a public audition (or private) entails and what a specific competition would be looking for. We mostly listen to ragged voices here so DS has lots of examples







.


----------



## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

I think that some parents go around with rose colored glasses. They truly believe that whatever their children do, they are absolutely the best in the world at it. They really can't understand why others don't see it!









It's a thin line to walk though when it comes to parenting. I think there has to be a point when you talk to your kids about their strengths, then you tell them that they are much better at A than B. But lets say, like with my ds1 who is 7, that he loves to play soccer. He is not really good at it (OK, sometimes he can't remember what side he's on!), but he loves it all the same. It's good for him, he has fun, etc. Do I tell him and discourage him? I am not, because right now, it's just fun. But he's better at basketball, so I encourage him to do that. When I have to choose what camp to sign him up for, I would choose to send him to basketball camp, if he enjoyed that too. But if he really just wanted to play soccer, so be it. Now if he wanted to try out for the olympic team, I think we'd have to have a serious sit down.


----------



## minkajane (Jun 5, 2005)

My mom told me in the FOURTH GRADE that she didn't think I was good enough to sing in the school talent show. I was crushed. I have also had my brother and sister telling me my whole life that I'm a terrible singer.

For the record, I can sing. I was in all-state choir in high school, as well as being in the hand-picked show choir and I've been singing solos since the eighth grade. A few years ago, I was offered a spot as the lead singer of a band, which unfortunately I had to turn down. To this day, I have no idea why they all told me over and over again that I couldn't sing, unless it was either jealousy or just plain meanness.


----------



## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

Depends on the age. I think that after the age of 10, yes, I'd gently say something.


----------



## jazzharmony (Nov 10, 2006)

Good singing is often subjective and technique is not the be all end all, that's for sure. Children sing with heart and purity - what does technical talent have to do with it? Bob Dylan is a great example. Bruce Springsteen is another one - his voice is really getting rough lately.


----------



## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jazzharmony* 
Bruce Springsteen is another one - his voice is really getting rough lately.

Ah, but it makes it just that much better, IMO. Whole lotta love for the way he sings it out. I have a huge crush on him







.


----------



## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

in thinking more about this, I think I'd rather my child's story be:

"No matter what, my mom always believed in me. Noone else thought I could make it, but my mom always supported me."

than:

"my mom told me i was a lousy singer/soccer player/basketweaver, so even though I loved it, I never did it again."


----------



## ~Nikki~ (Aug 4, 2004)

I don't think I would come right out and tell her that she sucks. But I'd probably encourage her to concentrate on her hobbies that she was good at, and hope the singing took a back burner. If she really really loved singing, I'd put her into voice lessons and hope that 1) it helped her improve or 2) it made her realize that singing wasn't worth persuing. I love singing, but I know I'm not a pro. I'm glad that nobody has ever told me I suck. Because I know that although I'm nothing special, singing is something that makes me feel good. And I would have been crushed and embarassed if my mother had told me that I was a horrible singer.

I was in a band with a guy in highschool who seriously could not sing. He refused to let the rest of us sing, because he thought he was a rock star. Nobody would tell him that he sounded like hell, because he was our friend and we didn't want to hurt his feelings. I'll never forget the day that we had band practice at the guitarist's house. I went upstairs to get a break from the singing, and my friend's father was up there laughing about how horrible it was. He finally walked downstairs and said "Guy, you sound like a dying cat. Please stop."







The band kind of dissolved after that. Probably a good thing, because our first gig would have been horribly embarassing.


----------



## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jazzharmony* 
Good singing is often subjective and technique is not the be all end all, that's for sure. Children sing with heart and purity - what does technical talent have to do with it?

On a show like American Idol, it has a lot to do with it.


----------



## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

Yeah, I probably wouldn't come right out and say "You're absolutely awful". I would definitely point out things that he IS good at.

But, if it was a situation like American Idol...Where they wanted to fly out and audition on tv...I would not want him to embarrass himself. Maybe I wouldn't say that his singing is horrible...but I'd perhaps say that I don't think it's what they are looking for, etc.

So many people on American Idol actually think that they can really sing well. It amazes me that not even their friends have told them that they are not particularly talented in singing. I mean so many of them are absolutely horrible singers. I think it's actually mean to let them make fools of themselves. If that happened to me, I would ask my friends/family why they didn't tell me the truth.


----------



## Stayseeliz (Jul 16, 2004)

I'd tell my children the truth in a loving way. I think it's mean to encourage a child to do something as a career if they're not good at it!


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush* 
in thinking more about this, I think I'd rather my child's story be:

"No matter what, my mom always believed in me. Noone else thought I could make it, but my mom always supported me."

than:

"my mom told me i was a lousy singer/soccer player/basketweaver, so even though I loved it, I never did it again."

ITA. Also, maybe the parents think the child is wonderful? You know how love can blind people, I can imagine thinking my child is amazing at something, being able to see beauty in whatever she does, where others cannot. Who's to say it's the parents that are wrong, kwim?


----------



## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

I think it's important to do things for the joy you get out of it, and not for approval or praise. That's the message I try to give my kids.

I have seen parents that constantly heap praise on their kids for everything they do. I can see where this might give a child a false sense of their abilities, and place too much importance on the opinions of others--kids that always look for external approval.


----------



## DandeCobb (Jul 20, 2006)

i say no because of my own personal experiences. i could not carry a tune if it was a bucket, i literally could not tell you what instrument is playing in any song, just NO musical talent. BUT in the 1st grade i wanted to sing 'i'm proud to be an american' at the school talent show' and i did iin front of 200 people and they all clapped for me and i thought i did a terrific job, years later seeing the tape you can tell that the pianist was having a hard time keeping up with me because sometimes i sang slooooow and sometimes really really fast







.

2nd example; i love to dance and have taken Jazz and tap lessons for years and always participated in the recital every year. i always did okay could keep up with the routines but i NEVER knew that the music in background had something to do with the dance moves (my mom can relate an argument we got in about how i was convinced the music was totally unrelated) but you know what, i had a ball in dance class! so anyways, you can take away whatever you like from my stories just know that i was always a very confident kid.


----------



## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

My mom always said "it's not HOW you sing, it's THAT you sing." In my family, I couldn't even tell you who has a worse voice - mine, my mother's, or my father's. Well, I guess I'm going to go with my dad's.

Anyway, I would have been crushed if my mom told me I was a horrible singer. Obviously she never told me I was a good singer, either, cause I never had any such illusions.

I don't see the point unless a kid was actually submitting an application to American Idol or whatever.

Kids should sing. They should sing rhymes and sing along to CDs and they should sing in the choir and so on. They shouldn't feel embarrassed.

I don't see the point in telling a kid they can't sing. You bring up American Idol, how many kids perform on there every year anyway? Do you think your kid is likely to? Do you think you need to tell your kid they can't sing "just in case" they apply to perform on AI?

What if your kid had a hook nose or was 5 pounds overweight or something? Do you make sure to tell them they aren't "that" attractive, just in case they think about being Miss America?

Do you make sure to tell your kid they aren't "that" athletic, just in case they are dreaming of becoming the next Michael Jordan?

Sure, you protect them from the judgement of others before they actually take that leap, but no need to protect ALL kids from the very, very low chance that they will try to compete on a national level on their talent.

You may think this is unrelated, but my mom told me when I was a kid that my fat stomach made me look like I was pregnant. I was a thin kid who didn't have abs of steel, ok? When I actually "was" pregnant (started out at 119 pounds) and got a big belly I suddenly was able to enjoy my belly for the first and only time - I could wear a bathing suit, or a tight outfit. I'm not preggers anymore, so I'm back to covering a belly that probably looks perfectly normal. But my mom's words stuck with me for life.

Don't make your kid embarrased to sing, even alone in the car along to the radio, for the rest of his or her life just in case they are thinking about American Idol!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## rose angel (Sep 1, 2003)

Now where would William Hung be if his mother had told him he sucked?

Just kidding. I think I would not encourage with false praise, but not discourage either. I also would get them voice lessons if they really loved singing.


----------



## SharonAnne (Jul 12, 2004)

Quote:

So many people on American Idol actually think that they can really sing well. It amazes me that not even their friends have told them that they are not particularly talented in singing. I mean so many of them are absolutely horrible singers. I think it's actually mean to let them make fools of themselves. If that happened to me, I would ask my friends/family why they didn't tell me the truth.
I think a lot of it, A LOT of it, is that people may be wonderful singers when they aren't scared to death. But singing in front of Simon, Paula and Randy (and wasn't Jewel there last night, too?) scares the pants off them. This is why I never made it in any high school musicals.







I could sing in the car, in front of my parents, in front of my friends, in front of my mirror







But I couldn't do it in front of an audience, or even the director of the play.

Now, to the subject at hand....my mom is a pretty decent artist. She went to art and design school after high school, but didn't graduate because my grandfather got hurt and she had to get a full time job to help with finances. Anytime I brought something home from art class, she'd tell me how I could ahve done it better.

Eventually, after art class, I'd just take whatever I'd made and wad it up in a heap in the bottom of my bookbag. I know now that I was secretly hoping my mom, who cleaned out my bookbag every night, would find it and figure out what was wrong. But no, she never said anything. She'd unwad them and tell me how I could have done it better.

I avoid most artistic pursuits like the plague now. I don't even like to color or draw with my daughter.

In high school, when I was in my school's chorus, and was up for a solo (which ended disastrously because of my aforementioned inability to sing solo in public







) I was singing the solo part for my mother and she told me it wasn't good enough and this is how I should do it. And then she butchered the song.
















That was my senior year and I abandoned all vocal pursuits in college, despite my aunt, who had been a vocalist herself, telling me I should "do something" with my voice.









I'm not blaming anything on my mom. I really think she was just trying to help me excel at the things I'd chosen to do. But she really could have gone about it a bit differently.









No, I wouldn't give my daughter false praise. But I wouldn't be too hard on her, either. And I refuse to EVER tell my children that they "CAN'T" do something. The word isn't in my vocabulary. If it's something she's committed to, she certainly CAN. And I'll help anyway I can.


----------



## Samjm (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:

I wouldn't tell them they were BAD at it, but I also wouldn't give them false hope by complimenting their talents, etc.
I agree.

I think you can tell your child they don't have the talent for something without coming right out and saying it.

If I make a huge fuss about how great she is at X, but don't say too much when she does Y, the message comes across that she is better at X. Without coming out and hurting her feelings by saying "you stink at Y".

I think the problem is when parents praise EVERYTHING their child does, no matter how good or bad it is.


----------



## Tapioca (Feb 4, 2005)

Slightly OT....but I was struck by the one 16 year old kid who was turned down, went outside, started crying, and then said "But I wanted to start out famous!" and his Mom patted his back and said "you will be famous. you will be."

Um, is that really a realistic goal? Just to be 'famous'??? Eh, I"m not wording this exactly how I want it - but it just struck me that even more than wanting to sing, etc, etc, he wanted to be famous, and AI does seem to attract that. Kinda sad imo.


----------



## JBaxter (May 1, 2005)

Here was/is my situation I have a 15yr old who is a big muscular kid 6ft & 170 who plays football ( 9th grade) He starts as a defensive end and center. All through is junior league years he was really good. My 12 yr old isnt built like that he is more a runners build but he loves football to. Now if he grows 6 inches and gains 50lbs he could be really good but as it is he is average. He asked what I though about him playing highschool football in 2 yrs. I told him if he really wanted to it would be great but if he wanted to check out the cross country track I thought he would be really good at that too since he usually has the best time when running the mile in PE.

I mean I didnt want to say .... YES play football I think you'd be great because unless he grows ALOT he will get crushed and maybe get 2nd or 3rd string. IF he chooses to run I know he will be good and get to have more participation time.

Yes I would tell my children if they needed to redirect their efforts.


----------



## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

I wouldn't discourage my child from singing especially if he loved it, and I'd let him know that *I* liked to hear him sing, but I would not fill him with false hopes like many parents on AI and SYTYCD do. Everyone remember Dave Kenneth Soller?


----------



## Tapioca (Feb 4, 2005)

False hopes. Yes, exactly.


----------



## bullfrog (Feb 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tapioca* 
Slightly OT....but I was struck by the one 16 year old kid who was turned down, went outside, started crying, and then said "But I wanted to start out famous!" and his Mom patted his back and said "you will be famous. you will be."

Um, is that really a realistic goal? Just to be 'famous'??? Eh, I"m not wording this exactly how I want it - but it just struck me that even more than wanting to sing, etc, etc, he wanted to be famous, and AI does seem to attract that. Kinda sad imo.

That is exactly the situation I was going to bring up! Why oh why would that mother comfort her son by telling him he would be famous??? That's just demented in my opinion - the first thing I thought of was the profile for mass murderers that I saw on PBS once - young men who have the "go west young man and make your way" idiology - then for whatever reason their expectations aren't met and they go and shoot up a McDonalds. (That is obviously the condensed version.)

Couldn't she have said something more comforting and realistic, like sayyyy "fame isn't everything - you're great in my book and your family loves you". The false praise is just so so wrong.

Also - I don't think my dd has the best singing voice - but I think she should try whatever she wants to. If she wants to sing in a talent show I'm only going to encourage her. It's good for her to have confidence and to learn what it's like to be on stage. Would I tell her she's got a better voice than the others in the competition? No. Also - she can hear and she knows a good singer when she hears one.


----------



## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

The real issue is not that you should tell your child they are _bad_ at singing, but why judge their singing at all?


----------



## jazzharmony (Nov 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2tadpoles* 
On a show like American Idol, it has a lot to do with it.

Actually, it has a lot more to do with looks...that much is obvious.

I was referring to younger children than appear on American Idol, fwiw.


----------



## mama_bee (Jun 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tapioca* 
Slightly OT....but I was struck by the one 16 year old kid who was turned down, went outside, started crying, and then said "But I wanted to start out famous!" and his Mom patted his back and said "you will be famous. you will be."

Um, is that really a realistic goal? Just to be 'famous'??? Eh, I"m not wording this exactly how I want it - but it just struck me that even more than wanting to sing, etc, etc, he wanted to be famous, and AI does seem to attract that. Kinda sad imo.

i thought the exact same thing and thought "what on earth is missing from these kids' lives?" maybe a stretch but it sounds like perhaps some of these people (not all, obviously, maybe just a mere few) are yearning for attention _so_ badly that they want nothing more than to "be famous" to fill some void in their life. i think some would enter any competition for _any_ talent just to be given a shot at getting some attention. it made me really sad.


----------



## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

I think most of the people with really over-the-top reactions are faking. I really do. The "I want to be famous" guy, Lion Girl, the first girl who loved Jewel, and the Biggest AI Fan - all seemed very fake to me.

I don't think I'd ever tell my child she wasn't good at something, but I also wouldn't encourage her to put all her efforts into something she obviously just wasn't cut out for. You don't do your kids any favors when you buy into or feed their unrealistic dreams. I am seeing this with a few younger kids I know right now - the pagent girl who is never going to make it as a model, no matter how many "model conventions" and expensive photo sessions her mom pays for (at the expense of things like oh say, the light bill) and the pretty-good-for-local football player who is never going to play pro (or even college) but has totally ignored his education because, hey, he's going to be on Cribs one day!

I think this is the kind of issue that's a bigger deal in a small town. There are SO MANY moms here trying to groom baby pop stars, little pro ballers, or child models. If your child is just entering local tallent shows for fun, GREAT! EVERYONE should do what they enjoy for the fun of it!!! However, if your short unphotogenic kid is skipping class to go to modeling conventions, you have a problem.


----------



## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

Quote:

i think some would enter any competition for any talent just to be given a shot at getting some attention.
This is very true. If you watch many of these shows (or just keep up vai something like televisionwithoutpity), so many of these people have been on multiple unrealted "reality" shows. I think it's just a drive for fame, and if you have no tallent - well, there are always dating shows and Big Brother. I mean, when comics from Last Standing show up on AI...

On the first season of AI, there was a girl who had washed out on both seasons of Pop Idol and that All American show with Geri Halliwell.

All this to say, I think so many of these people are trying to fill huge voids where their self-worth ought to be.


----------



## HoosierDiaperinMama (Sep 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82*
I wouldn't discourage my child from singing especially if he loved it, and I'd let him know that *I* liked to hear him sing, but I would not fill him with false hopes like many parents on AI and SYTYCD do.

ITA. The one young man that juggled last night while he sang was truly awful, but what was even more awful was him crying to his mom (I assume?) and his mom saying, "You _will_ be famous. Do you hear me? You _will_ be famous." I'm not saying he won't, but his fame won't be b/c of his voice or dancing abilities (or juggling for that matter). Encouraging is one thing, but really pushing for something that is unattainable is sad. And that's what I see many folks doing on shows like AI.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I wouldn't feed into the false hopes that you see on AI (I've only watched it once, but I assume it was a fairly typical episode). I'll admit that I hadn't thought about the effect of nerves on the voice, which is funny, as I can't sing in public _at all_ and I'm an okay singer when nobody can hear me.









But, I would never, ever, ever tell my child that they can't do something. I don't think adults realize how much power we often have over a child's dreams and self-image. When I was in fifth grade, our art class had to do a pencil sketch of one of the girls in our class. Then, our teacher showed them all to everyone on the overhead projector. I took one look at my "awful" sketch and never tried to draw anything again. I look back now, and my sketch was just like everyone else's - a first attempt by someone with no particular talent...but it wasn't a first attempt by somebody who was completely untalented.

I joined a choir in September. This is the first time I've sung in front of anyone but my spouse or my kids since I was 12. There's another woman in the choir who told me on the first night that she was told in grade three that she shouldn't sing out loud at choir, because she was so bad. She didn't sing again, and is now in the choir to just enjoy singing. This is a new thing for her...and she's at least 50.









I don't want my children to publicly humiliate themselves on AI...but I don't want them to be that lady in my choir, or even me, either.


----------



## Moon Faerie (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup* 
The real issue is not that you should tell your child they are _bad_ at singing, but why judge their singing at all?

Well I guess it really depends of if they're just singing around the house or are an older child that wants to make a career out of it or go on national television, like in the case of AI. Because if they are putting themselves out there, someone IS going to be judging them. And if that's the case, which is better, being told gently by mom that your not AI material but are really amazing at whatever that child's particular strengths are, or being insulted and humiliated on national television? Personally, I'd choose being told oplitely by someone that cares about me.


----------



## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

but singing is so subjective. I can't stand Mariah Carey's voice, yet she is supposedly such an "amazing singer".

g,
another raspy tom waits fan.


----------



## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nikel1979* 
Well I guess it really depends of if they're just singing around the house or are an older child that wants to make a career out of it or go on national television, like in the case of AI. Because if they are putting themselves out there, someone IS going to be judging them. And if that's the case, which is better, being told gently by mom that your not AI material but are really amazing at whatever that child's particular strengths are, or being insulted and humiliated on national television? Personally, I'd choose being told oplitely by someone that cares about me.

I think kids get to that place by being hit with the constant false praise from their parents. It's the 3yo that can't just sing around the house without being told "you're such a _good_ singer!" that grows into the older child humiliating himself on AI.


----------



## Moon Faerie (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush* 
but singing is so subjective. I can't stand Mariah Carey's voice, yet she is supposedly such an "amazing singer".

g,
another raspy tom waits fan.

Yes and no. Style of music preference, voice quality, that sort of stuff is subjective, range (like I prefer lower voices to higher voices), etc are most definitely subjective. I really don't see being able to sing in tune or not is subjective.


----------



## Moon Faerie (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup* 
I think kids get to that place by being hit with the constant false praise from their parents. It's the 3yo that can't just sing around the house without being told "you're such a _good_ singer!" that grows into the older child humiliating himself on AI.

True. I also wonder where the balance comes in between encouraging children to keep trying at things they may enjoy but aren't particularly good at and giving false hope. I think that can be a very fine line sometimes.


----------



## sphinxie (Feb 28, 2006)

I would suggest to my kids that they not go on American Idol, whether they were good singers or not!

Parents walk a fine line. It can be a mistake to be too supportive, too discouraging, or too uninvolved. I think it's important to be constructive and open-ended either way. For instance if someone sang flat, with enough work they could usually fix it. For some kids that might actually be worth it to them. I think it's better to give a child the sense of what they can accomplish, and the tools or connections to do so, than to tell them they can't do it and that's that, or to lie and tell them that they can if it's not true.


----------



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I don't think I'd outright tell a child "your singing voice sucks" if he or she was just singing around the house, singing along with recorded music, etc. However, if he or she wanted to audition for something like American Idol, I'd be brutally honest about my opinion of the child's talents and prepare him or her about what might be ahead (rejection by others, possible humiliation, etc.)


----------



## Mamma Mia (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush* 
i wouldn't tell my young child that she wasn't a good singer, because kids take joy in singing.

Yes, this. I want my dd to sing because she enjoys it. If I label it and get involved I might discourage her from doing it or make her feel like she has to met some standard. My dd does seem to be good at singing, but I'm just glad she's having fun.

A pp said that they learned in kindergarten that they couldn't sing. That is terrible, IMO! I know people who perform who are flat sometimes. My dd is flat sometimes too. That doesn't mean she should give up on choir and thinks he can't sing for the rest of her life. I'm really sorry you were discouraged. If you enjoy singing, perhaps taking a voice lesson would show you that perhaps you can sing in tune.

Back to the OP. I have this wonderful friend. Her dh seems to be delusional about his abilities. He can admit some fault, sure, but he seems truly delusional about many things. I have theorized before that his mom, who I've met, praised him too much and unrealistically and that now he has an unrealistic view of himself. Contrast that to another good friend whose dh's mom put him down all the time. He is beat down because of it. Both have huge problems in relationships and work. Neither have a realistic view of themselves.

This is a real life example of how praise can be exactly as detrimental as criticism.

If my dd wants to sing, then great. If she wants to try out for American Idol, I'll loan her video camera so she can work on her performance. I'm not going to be the pushing parent, the overly praising parent OR the putting down parent. I'm finding middle ground.


----------



## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nikel1979* 
True. I also wonder where the balance comes in between encouraging children to keep trying at things they may enjoy but aren't particularly good at and giving false hope. I think that can be a very fine line sometimes.

I think you can be encouraging without judging--"you really love to sing!" "I love to hear you singing" doesn't have the judgment, it's just about your enjoyment.


----------



## PGNPORTLAND (Jul 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush* 
i wouldn't tell my young child that she wasn't a good singer, because kids take joy in singing.

exactly.


----------



## Bartock (Feb 2, 2006)

Ya that one poor guy that kinda sounded like Chris, and that girl who brought her boss in, they can be so rude. I would tell my kid if they we really bad, but only if they were wanting to addition for something like AI, would not want to see them get razed and made fun of on National T.V. But Even if they wanted to try despite the fact, I would support them.


----------



## Canadianmommax3 (Mar 6, 2006)

i would never say to my child your singing sucks! But if my son decided at 16 he will try out for Canadian Idol, not sure what i would do. But we haven't been encouraging him all along that he is a great singer, maybe that's the difference.

I agree that some people on American idol no they suck and are just being goofy. But i do think there are people there that really think they can sing and are totally shocked when told they are tone deaf or sound horrible.
I think one woman last night said i think i can sing unless people have been lying to me (something like that)


----------



## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *becoming* 
I wouldn't tell them they were BAD at it, but I also wouldn't give them false hope by complimenting their talents, etc.









:


----------



## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Samjm* 

If I make a huge fuss about how great she is at X, but don't say too much when she does Y, the message comes across that she is better at X. Without coming out and hurting her feelings by saying "you stink at Y".

I think the problem is when parents praise EVERYTHING their child does, no matter how good or bad it is.


I totally agree with this. There is a huge difference between telling your child that you aren't good at something, than telling them they are good at something else. Positive reenforcement can do wonders without ever having to be negative. But like a lot of people said, when my child was older and they wanted to quit school to join a band or the olympic soccer team, and they just didn't have the talent, I think that is the time that a parent has to step in. I think it is hard for a parent to hard and scary to have to do that, but I think that if you know your child isn't good at something, it is unfair and cowardice to make someone else tell them. But again I think a lot of parents think they're kids are amazing at everything they do.


----------



## AmyC (Jul 3, 2005)

I think it's hard to answer this question about what you tell your child when the American Idol context is not there in your life (realistically), not to mention when your own child is a toddler, yet! I tend to hear the question and think "Would I tell my child...?" and answer no, rather than "If my child were a tuneless singer and wanted to audition for AI on tv, would I tell her....?" It's like you've got two threads going, here! Is this what we'd do differently if we were those parents you're seeing backstage? Or is this what we'd say (to the child) if a child of ours wasn't musically gifted but persisted in singing? (Or is this what we'd say if that child wanted to pursue a career in music, or audition on television for a ridiculous show, etc.)?

Anyway, I agree with many of the responses about not encouraging with false praise, but not being discouraging either.

This post makes an excellent point:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nicole lisa* 
There are lots of role models for people without traditional singing voices that have done well for themselves and I would let my DS know that (Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen, my crush Tom Waits etc - most rock stars wouldn't make it past AI first round auditions), but also be really honest about what his voice (or any skill) limits are, if he was old enough to think about entering a competition, and what a public audition (or private) entails and what a specific competition would be looking for. We mostly listen to ragged voices here so DS has lots of examples







.


And I agree with jazzharmony that "good singing is often subjective and technique is not the be all end all." Singing "with heart and purity" is something very valuable in my book, as well.

I also have to say that I regard all those fabulously bad singers as hamming it up for their moment onscreen. We've all witnessed that the most notoriously remembered auditionees were the ones who were bad and who _obviously_ thought they were good. That's what I'd do, if I were a kid wanting to try for a splash. Do an impossibly bad job, and play it so straight: be amazed and astounded to hear that I can't sing. Crushed by the news (on camera)? So much the better! Most of the time, I don't buy it.

I didn't see the episode people are talking about, and I don't doubt that some people carry illusions about their talent and are built up by family and friends (and I also know that people seem to respond to inflection and affect in deciding someone is "good" or "talented" or "such a showman," in spite of lack of pitch, etc. So it's possible that if someone strikes strong poses, sings really high or lots of notes, and imitates a popular delivery or tone, others could tell her she is a good singer and not really be lying. Just mistaken!) But I really have suspicions about so many of the awful soundbites in the early rounds (much of which keep people watching/listening, too.) I think they do know they're awful, or that they are putting us one by _being_ intentionally awful, but are playing it straight for the drama when they're shot down.


----------



## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I don't think it is usually necessary to tell your child they are bad at something. Most people figure it out. I think it is important not to give false praise or empty praise for everything your child does though. I think you can support your child and guide them to their talents without crushing their spirit and enjoyment.

My family encouraged me to pursue my artistic talents. They never told me I'd be famous or make a big career out of it. They saw it was something I enjoyed from an early age. My mom encouraged me to take art classes to develop my talent. I could compare my work to other artists and students and get non-biased feedback from my teachers so I don't feel I had false views of my talents.

No one ever told me my singing wasn't very good (until young dd screams at me to stop singing and covers her ears- ouch!) but I figured out pretty early that it wasn't my talent to sing solos in public.


----------



## Cloverlove (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nicole lisa* 
There are lots of role models for people without traditional singing voices that have done well for themselves and I would let my DS know that (Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen, my crush Tom Waits etc - most rock stars wouldn't make it past AI first round auditions)

Another







:

I also tell my kids that art doesn't have to be beautiful and people aren't always going to like it. I want to nurture self expression rather than encourage a need for approval.


----------



## fly-mom (May 23, 2005)

I'm someone who has to try just about everything. I just enjoy the experiences. I am a terrible singer, but I have gotten up in front of people and sung a duet with my husband which we had been practicing for a while. We warned people it wasn't going to be good. Luckily they were mostly just drunk enough to enjoy it.

I'm a recovering perfectionist though. I had one of those moms who criticized everything and did not encourage doing things that I wasn't "good at". So in my adult life I'm enjoying trying to break out of that mold and try all the stuff I wasn't encouraged to as a kid.

I plan on always supporting my kids in trying new things. However, I do agree that it's a disservice to instill false hope. You can be supportive without doing that I think. In the AI example, if dd or ds wanted to try out for something like that, and I thought that they truly couldn't carry a tune in a bucket I wouldn't strongly discourage them from trying (assuming I wasn't going to have to shell out a lot of money for it







), but I would try to help prepare them for what the results would likely be.

DD gets frustrated sometimes when she can't do things the way she imagines them in her mind, but I always try to tell her that you don't have to be good at something to enjoy doing it.


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

It depends on the context. If a kid is just wandering around singing badly for fun, I wouldn't say anything. If they decided to apply to Juilliard, we'd have to talk, because I think it's cruel to set a kid up for a massive failure/humilation like that. I know several people whose parents set them up just like that and they all suffered terribly.


----------



## mags (May 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamma Mia* 

Back to the OP. I have this wonderful friend. Her dh seems to be delusional about his abilities. He can admit some fault, sure, but he seems truly delusional about many things. I have theorized before that his mom, who I've met, praised him too much and unrealistically and that now he has an unrealistic view of himself. Contrast that to another good friend whose dh's mom put him down all the time. He is beat down because of it. Both have huge problems in relationships and work. Neither have a realistic view of themselves.

This is a real life example of how praise can be exactly as detrimental as criticism.

I have the same feelings about this. My mil is the type who praised my DH over every stupid little thing (she's the type that thinks her kid poops gold). One of our friends ended up sitting next to my mil on a flight and he said that the ENTIRE time, the only thing my mil talked about was how great her kids were, and she just bragged and bragged. Now, my DH is a great all around guy, but he was never THAT great of a student, never THAT great of an athelete, never THAT great of an artist, etc.. He's got a great personality though, and is one of those ppl that everyone likes. My mil totally blows things out of proportion making her son sound like some sort of god. He has a lot of confidence, which is good... but sometimes he thinks he is better than he really is, and I end up telling him what I think to help avoid a situation where he'll make a fool of himself. I see this situation very often these days, the over-praising, and then having kids who really think they are THAT great, when they are not. Having good self esteem and confidence is different from having an over-inflated self esteem and confidence, b/c your parents over-praised you on purpose.

Now, on the flip side, I am the one who was brought up by parents who ONLY put my brothers and I down. Even when we were good at something, we never felt like it, b/c they always told us we were bad. To this day, I have a VERY difficult time with hearing ppl praise me on something I've done well. When they compliment me, I get embarrassed and change the topic instead of just saying, "thank you" and feeling good about it. It's awful to not feel good about yourself. So, I *really* try to balance things out with my kids. I praise them, but I don't want to praise them too much, b/c then I think they will have an unrealistic idea of their abilities and I don't want them to think that praise means everything. I try to use those neutral comments instead of the, "you're so great" comments.

If my kid was bad at something, I would not tell them they were bad at it (having had my parents tell me I was bad at everything... I had absolutely no self esteem and I don't want my kids to go through that). However, I would try to help them find something that they were good at and then encourage them to focus their attn on that skill/art instead. Singing is one of those things that you should enjoy, even if you are bad at it, and I wouldn't want to tell my kid that they sucked and then have them to be too embarrassed to ever sing again b/c of my own thoughtless comment from when he was a kid.


----------



## Chinese Pistache (May 29, 2006)

I really dislike how our culture is so results-oriented. Singing is fun, it can bring people together, it can motivate and inspire and more. It doesn't *have* to be about fame or a career or anything else. I think it's more productive, especially with kids, to focus on how much they're enjoying an activity as opposed to how "good" they are at it.

Of course, I still perversely enjoy the AI audition trainwreck







:


----------



## warriorprincess (Nov 19, 2001)

I usually wouldn't say anything, but if they were trying to get on American Idol and they couldn't carry a tune, well, I'd be kinder than Simon!


----------



## jazzharmony (Nov 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
It depends on the context. If a kid is just wandering around singing badly for fun, I wouldn't say anything. If they decided to apply to Juilliard, we'd have to talk, because I think it's cruel to set a kid up for a massive failure/humilation like that. I know several people whose parents set them up just like that and they all suffered terribly.

What if the parent is tone deaf? Why are parents automatically the judge of musical talent? Having taught music classes for families, let me tell you parents quite often sing loud and can't carry a tune.

It won't crush someone who loves music to apply and not be accepted to Juilliard, trust me.


----------



## sparkprincess (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup* 
I think you can be encouraging without judging--"you really love to sing!" "I love to hear you singing" doesn't have the judgment, it's just about your enjoyment.

Yes! Exactly! You don't have to lie to someone to make them feel good.

Personally, I'm a terrible singer and feel bad about my voice. I will always encourage my children to sing their hearts out at church, with family, friends, etc. Doing something for the pure enjoyment of it is one thing. However, if they decided they just HAD to be a pro and go audition, etc, I think I would be strongly encouraging voice lessons and leave it up to the voice teacher to tell them what's what. And for the record, I'll always encourage my kids in whatever they decide to do, but I'm not going to give them false hope or lie to them just for them to be crushed! I guess I'm saying it doesn't have to be either/or, ya know? If my kid was dead set on going to audition on AI I would be right there by them, but I'm NOT going to be one of those parents who says " I just don't know why the judges are saying you sound horrible - you're the next Kelly Clarkson!!".


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jazzharmony* 
What if the parent is tone deaf? Why are parents automatically the judge of musical talent? Having taught music classes for families, let me tell you parents quite often sing loud and can't carry a tune.

It won't crush someone who loves music to apply and not be accepted to Juilliard, trust me.

No, trust me, it can be bad to lead someone on like that. I have a friend whose parents were always oohing and ahhing over his artistic talents and how he was going to be the most awesome and how he was better than anyone. Now he had some talent, true, but it was raw and undeveloped and nothing was ever done to help him improve it. He didn't NEED lessons, see, he was just THAT GOOD! Anyhow, he'd enter art in contests as a kid and not win anything and instead of just being like, oh well, his parents would throw a fit about how it was unfair, how he really was the best, etc.

Well up comes the end of high school and he decides, since he's an artistic genius, he's going to apply to all the big names. He sends in a COMPLETELY inappropriate portfolio--I'm talking tracings of comic books, crappy anime-style drawings of topless princesses, badly proportioned sci fi novel cover rip offs, you know what I'm saying. And the schools he had dreamed of going to since he was a kid let him down HARD. He didn't get into his LAST choice art school. And worst of all, while he was on campus for a scholarship application, he saw kids with appropriate portfolios and it dawned on him that he was in totally over his head and he was MORTIFIED. He was so humiliated. And down the toilet went all these dreams his parents had cultivated and he had built his whole identity on those dreams!!

He's alright now, but he's still a little irked that his parents didn't insert a little reality. Like I said, the talent was real; if they had reacted realistically he would have had a chance to cultivate it appropriately instead of being embarrassed to within an inch of his life.

And as for Juilliard, conservatories, etc, I've done the whole conservatory audition scene. I was prepared, I got in, I even got scholarships. It was hard, hard work with a lot of dreams riding on it. If you show up at Juilliard, a lifetime's worth of dreams of Carnegie Hall, etc, etc, dancing around your head...and play some tunes from the Lion King...you can see the looks on the faculty's faces. And when you see that the guy in front of you played Tchaikovsky, Bach, 3 octave scales, and an etude that made your head spin, YEAH that would hurt. Unless you're painfully naive.

Like I said I was prepared well and I WON a scholarship and I was intimidated. I can't imagine what it would feel like to basically show up and realize you're butt naked.


----------



## jazzharmony (Nov 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
I have a friend whose parents were always oohing and ahhing over his artistic talents and how he was going to be the most awesome and how he was better than anyone. Now he had some talent, true, but it was raw and undeveloped and nothing was ever done to help him improve it. He didn't NEED lessons, see, he was just THAT GOOD! Anyhow, he'd enter art in contests as a kid and not win anything and instead of just being like, oh well, his parents would throw a fit about how it was unfair, how he really was the best, etc.


Parents often don't know whether or not their kid has "talent". Too much emotional investment, jealousy, unfulfilled childhood dreams of the parent, whatever. Or just plain tone deafness. Parents can make the mistake in either direction - so it doesn't really make sense for them to crush or elevate their children's dreams. Let the kid enjoy life and some artistic persuits along the way for goodness' sake.


----------



## kirei (Dec 2, 2004)

I would not tell my child that she is bad at something, because of my experience.....

My mother always told me a lot of things when I was growing up. She always said that I wasn't funny, just like her. I was so self-conscious as a child to begin with, and now I knew that I wasn't funny..... so I wouldn't even try.

And guess what? Hey, I found out I actually AM kind of funny at times, I just have a weird sense of humour. And its not bad! I have had a lot of people over the years tell me that I am funny.

I think she may have been trying to help me, but really it just made me afraid to try.

She also told me other things.... about how I am selfish just like her, I'm introverted just like her, etc. None of those things are really true.... especially not to the extent that she said so.

Since growing up and moving away, I have been shocked in realizing what a different person I really am. I grew up with what I was TOLD that I was.... and it was wrong.

SO..... long story, short..... I'm not going to tell my child who she is.

If she wanted to a singer, and I thought she needed improvement, I would offer her the chance to take voice lessons.

Even though so many people on American Idol really sucked.... at least they made the effort to actually get on there and try to do something that the loved. It must have been important to them if they got on there. That's something in and of itself.

Also, I'm not going to lie to my daughter and tell her how GREAT she is at something, if shes not. I hope to offer constructive criticism and the opportunities to develop her talents. I'm not going to insist she is an amazing singer, if shes not.


----------



## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2tadpoles* 
But then again, there are things like art, in which everyone has a different opinion. I mean, lots of people thought that Picasso's paintings weren't worthy of being called art. What if someone told him that he sucked, and he stopped?

Actually Picasso was very skilled at naturalistic representation. He mastered drawing at a very young age. He knew he was good









I agree that people shouldn't be discouraged though.

Fred Astaire once got the evaluation from a Paramount executive who had reported that Fred Astaire: "Can't act. Can't sing. Balding. Can dance a little."

So you never know.


----------



## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

I can not sing and I know it, but I love to sing so very much. I am glad I know I can't sing - I am completely tone deaf. But I think that singing is very fun and healing and I think children should be encouraged to sing their hearts out. Not necessarily on TV though!


----------



## Canadianmommax3 (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *warriorprincess* 
I usually wouldn't say anything, but if they were trying to get on American Idol and they couldn't carry a tune, well, I'd be kinder than Simon!


----------



## Tapioca (Feb 4, 2005)

Y'know, I love to sing, too. I used to sing in choir. I can carry a tune (some of the time) but I know I'm not great. I KNOW I could never get into AI. Yet I still take enjoyment out of singing... I sing to my kid all the time. She loves it......writing this it dawns on me that this might be the crux of the issue for me. I get the impression from AI auditions that for some people, love of singing = they must be great! they're popstars!, rather than love of singing = enjoyment of the skill for its own sake. That's what I find unhealthy, and sad.


----------



## E.V. Lowi (Sep 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush* 
in thinking more about this, I think I'd rather my child's story be:

"No matter what, my mom always believed in me. Noone else thought I could make it, but my mom always supported me."

than:

"my mom told me i was a lousy singer/soccer player/basketweaver, so even though I loved it, I never did it again."

MamaG- you are the bomb!







I agree 100% with your other post, too!


----------



## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush* 
in thinking more about this, I think I'd rather my child's story be:

"No matter what, my mom always believed in me. Noone else thought I could make it, but my mom always supported me."

than:

"my mom told me i was a lousy singer/soccer player/basketweaver, so even though I loved it, I never did it again."









:

My mom also told me that I sucked at singing. And art, and music and ... My whole family is full of artists so this was tough for me to hear and as a result I never did anything like that again. Then I moved to Texas and I found that the lack of mountains and water was so depressing, I had to add some art to my life and although I will never go to art school, I'm not that bad at it.









I think it's terrible to tell your child that they suck at something because there are enough people in the world who will be more then happy to tell them they suck. As a parent, I think it is our responsibility to support them in their endevors. I also don't believe in lying to them so if DD is not such a great singer, I won't give her false hope.

Also, I can't really believe anyone would encourage their child to go on American Idol. If DD came to me and told me she wanted to go on that show, I would watch it with her and hopefully help her realize that a show that devalues someone so completely because they can't sing according to their standard isn't worth supporting in any manner. Am I the only one in America who thinks that embarrassing someone on TV is just cruel and shouldn't be supported?


----------



## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

It is not my place to place judgments like "good" or "bad" on anything my children do. It IS my place to support them. To feel joy at what brings them joy. To empathize with their disappointments. I can't imagine telling my child they are "bad" at what they love and that they shouldn't even try. How heartbreaking it would be to hear no matter how good my intentions.

If my child wished to audition for some ridiculous show even though he likely had no talent I would still encourage him. I would not fill him full of false hope, I would tell him how difficult it would be and that the judges may very well be mean and insulting if they didn't enjoy his performance, but I would never tell him he wasn't good enough. If he truly wanted to do it and understood what he was up against I would help and support him in his efforts. I would give him all the facts and allow HIM to make the choice and leave my personal opinion out of it.

That is what the people who love you SHOULD do. Offer unconditional love and support. They should see your dreams and encourage you along the way. And they should stand in the wings with love and empathy if things don't go the way you hoped they would.


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

It's so not either/or, though. I mean, I don't have to shoot you down to give you a realistic sense of your talents. I don't think it's either "believe in your child no matter what, even if it means they fall on their face to great humilation on national TV" or "tell them they suck and bash them so they never try again." I think the healthiest route would be to give age-appropriate realistic feedback. I'm not going to tell a 4 year old her drawings aren't done with proper perspective or her violin sounds scratchy. But if she's 18 and trying to get into RISD or Juilliard? I'd say something. Maybe, "I'm wondering if it would be good for your portfolio to try drawing some forms in perspective" or "I wonder if xyz piece is the one you should play at Juilliard, it sounds like you're really having to scramble to keep up with the notes. Maybe we should talk to Teacher X and figure out a different piece to learn." Maybe, if there was some true delusional behavior going on, sitting down and chatting about realistic expectations and how it's OK to dream big but most of us don't get to be the star and that's OK. Call me an evil, terrible, soul-crushing person, I guess. I'd just rather she hear it gently from dear old mom than get laughed at by people who don't care about her.

And I really don't think that constructive criticism given gently by a loving parent is going to stop a child from doing something they enjoy. If it does, well I am guessing there's yet another problem.


----------



## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
It's so not either/or, though. I mean, I don't have to shoot you down to give you a realistic sense of your talents. I don't think it's either "believe in your child no matter what, even if it means they fall on their face to great humilation on national TV" or "tell them they suck and bash them so they never try again." I think the healthiest route would be to give age-appropriate realistic feedback. ...

That's what I was about to say.







It's a false dichotomy. There is a middle ground where you support them, encourage them to participate in artistic pursuits which they enjoy, whilst not giving them a false sense of talent which may backfire.

Nobody here advocated telling your child they "suck".


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Our homes should always be a place where our kids can feel loved, protected, supported, and encouraged 100% of the time. The coldness and callousness of the outside world will become a realization soon enough. I try to be the soft shoulder for my kids to fall; not the person who pushed them over.

DC


----------



## sparkprincess (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
It's so not either/or, though. I mean, I don't have to shoot you down to give you a realistic sense of your talents. I don't think it's either "believe in your child no matter what, even if it means they fall on their face to great humilation on national TV" or "tell them they suck and bash them so they never try again." I think the healthiest route would be to give age-appropriate realistic feedback. I'm not going to tell a 4 year old her drawings aren't done with proper perspective or her violin sounds scratchy. But if she's 18 and trying to get into RISD or Juilliard? I'd say something. Maybe, "I'm wondering if it would be good for your portfolio to try drawing some forms in perspective" or "I wonder if xyz piece is the one you should play at Juilliard, it sounds like you're really having to scramble to keep up with the notes. Maybe we should talk to Teacher X and figure out a different piece to learn." Maybe, if there was some true delusional behavior going on, sitting down and chatting about realistic expectations and how it's OK to dream big but most of us don't get to be the star and that's OK. Call me an evil, terrible, soul-crushing person, I guess. I'd just rather she hear it gently from dear old mom than get laughed at by people who don't care about her.

*And I really don't think that constructive criticism given gently by a loving parent is going to stop a child from doing something they enjoy. If it does, well I am guessing there's yet another problem.*

WORD! (do people still say that??







) Exactly!! Being realistic and giving age-appropriate feedback is nowhere NEAR the same as telling a kid "you suck"!!







: Like most things, there is totally a middle ground. And that's what I strive for with my ds.

I have a friend who's mom has always overpraised her...at the age of almost 30 she is just CRUSHED when someone doesn't totally appreciate whatever talent/thought/idea/whatever she has. I'm ALL for supporting and encouraging your kids, but her parents honestly took it to the extreme and it's actually become debilitating I think!!


----------



## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

The more I read this thread, the more I think it should be tied to the "no praise" discussions in GD.

In fact I think it's helping me understand why GDers advocate "no praise".


----------



## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

Well, I don't see why encouraging a child is the same thing as praise. If my delusional child wants to apply to Julliard, why shouldn't I say, "if that is what you want to do, go for it. Do you need me to write a check?" Why should I be the person to tell her she can't do it? I'd do that if she could only draw stick figures and was completely mute. I would probably also point out to her that competition is stiff and that she should have a backup plan if Julliard doesn't work out, but that is true with everything.


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Boingo82, I was just thinking the precise same thing.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lalaland42* 
Well, I don't see why encouraging a child is the same thing as praise. If my delusional child wants to apply to Julliard, why shouldn't I say, "if that is what you want to do, go for it. Do you need me to write a check?" Why should I be the person to tell her she can't do it? I'd do that if she could only draw stick figures and was completely mute. I would probably also point out to her that competition is stiff and that she should have a backup plan if Julliard doesn't work out, but that is true with everything.

I'm not saying a parent's role is to say "you can't do this" but I do think a parent should be realistic and not give "encouragement" meaning praise where what is really needed is "encouragement" meaning helping to change tactics and move on.

And hell yeah, if my kid is delusional I'm not going to support that. I mean if she declared she was Jesus Christ, what do you suggest I should do, talk her down or take her to parties and tell her to turn water into wine?


----------



## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

I'm ALL for supporting and encouraging your kids, but her parents honestly took it to the extreme and it's actually become debilitating I think!!
Support and encouragement is worlds away from praise. It is the difference between saying, "Wow, singing makes you so happy. It makes ME happy to see the joy it brings you!" and "Wow, you are a fantastic singer. You could be on stage with a voice like that!". One encourages a child to feel good about something that makes them happy regardless of my opinion of whether or not they are "good" at it. The other focuses on a good/bad perception of their actual ability.

I strive to teach my children to do what they LOVE, not to do what they are good at. Two totally separate thoughts.


----------



## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

IME, if someone is actually delusional, you do neither. Confronting a delusion can make the delusion more strongly held and accepting the delusion as true is equally as damaging. Again, IME, you just keep talking and get them help from a qualified professional. But since we aren't talking about actual delusional people, I still say that I am not going to be the gatekeeper to my child's dreams.

There is another thread on the GD forum talking about protecting your child from every injury - the "people constantly telling DC they are going to get hurt" thread (paraphrasing). This seems to apply here as well.


----------



## raleigh_mom (Jan 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82* 
I wouldn't discourage my child from singing especially if he loved it, and I'd let him know that *I* liked to hear him sing, but I would not fill him with false hopes like many parents on AI and SYTYCD do. Everyone remember Dave Kenneth Soller?

Oh my.







: Yep. Mom should not have given false hope. Painful to watch. Oh gosh. Now I'm going to have to save that to show DH. Oy.


----------



## aywilkes (Sep 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush* 
in thinking more about this, I think I'd rather my child's story be:

"No matter what, my mom always believed in me. Noone else thought I could make it, but my mom always supported me."

than:

"my mom told me i was a lousy singer/soccer player/basketweaver, so even though I loved it, I never did it again."

I think this can be achieved without lying to your child. I will be an honest person period and if that means saying something that stings....so be it. I also am a big cheerleader too, so if my son wanted to do something and wasn't that good at it yet, I'd encourage him to work harder at it and keep trying. For example, he loves to dance - loves it! He is great at tap, but started hip hop last semester and was okay. I never said he was bad or okay - I just told him that it seemed like he needed to put more energy into his moves and practice more. He auditioned for and made it into his school's choir recently and sometimes he doesn't sound so good when singing to me. I have told him that he has to practice singing from his gut so he won't sound so breathy. There is a way to give constructive criticism to your child without tearing down there IALAC sign. (I am loveable and capable) sign. We all have to learn how to digest constructive criticism or life will be really hard.


----------



## SneakyPie (Jan 13, 2002)

No, I am not going to tell somebody they are "not good at" something -- that has a finality to it. A mother telling her kindergartner that she sings flat, to me, is an ugly mistake. Helping someone learn to do something right is a much better solution. And of course there is a big difference between a 5-year-old and a teenager old enough to audition for American Idol! I feel pretty certain that if my kid were that age, wanted to do that, and wasn't up to par, I would encourage some voice lessons, etc. (it has been my experience that almost anyone can be taught to carry a tune and learn some vocal control and technique).

I think we tend to think that singing is some sort of innate talent that cannot be taught. I am fine with being honest (in an age-appropriate way) about current skill level. But I am a big proponent of letting someone try as hard as they want, while encouraging training/education. This goes for lots of endeavors, like cooking, acting, gardening, and athletics.


----------



## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

What strikes me most about the AI contestants -- the ones that truly do not know that they suck -- is their sheer self-confidence.

Like, it _never even crossed their mind_ that they might sound other than great.







:

I always think to myself that if *I* were to audition for AI, I'd video tape myself and pour over my audition relentlessly, searching for flaws. I'd make everybody and his brother watch it too, and beg them not to hold back with the criticism. Please, nothing they could say could be more hurtful than being humiliated by Simon Cowell in front of millions!

I'm fairly certain that I'd have a pretty good idea of whether or not I sucked before I got up there on AI. And if there was even the slightest chance that I wasn't *awesome* I'd stay home.

Yet, these people get up there and have no clue what they sound like. They are firmly convinced that they are amazing, despite there being plenty of evidence to the contrary. Their self-confidence levels are falsely and ridiculously through the roof.

And with lots of them, it's not even just the voice. It's the clothing, the haircut, the entire package -- there is no way in hell they could possibly become the Next American Idol. And anybody that had watched even *one* episode of the show could tell you that. Yet, there they are, devastated because they didn't make it past the first round. What EVER made them think they could win?

How does one's psyche get built up with false expectations like that? It's really fascinating to me.


----------



## Terabith (Mar 10, 2006)

I think a five year old giving up on singing is one of the saddest things I've heard in a long time. Only a few people are "born" knowing how to sing, but with the right exposure and training, there are very, very, VERY few people who cannot learn to sing quite well. While I might tell a five year old that she is flat, I would only do so if I was going to work with her on how to improve her singing. (I was considered tone deaf until 12. I went on to sing in professional level choirs and solos in church. I'm not great by the standards of people who are good, but I was taught how to become good enough to sing in high level choirs and be very good by the standards of the public. Singing well brings great joy to my life, and I consider it every child's birthright. Learning to sing and draw, I think, should be like learning to read. Approximately the same percentage of people can't be taught to do either.)

I do believe in encouraging areas of strength. And I would not encourage someone to go on American Idol unless they were really, really, REALLY good. I believe in telling kids the truth and I hate mindless encouragement. ("You are flat there; what if we sang it in a different key? Can you imagine the sound coming out of the roof of your mouth?") We all have things that we are naturally better at. I'm not good at languages; I have to struggle to learn them. I have a lousy sense of direction and abyssmal mechanical skills. I don't know how to draw. But all of those are areas that can be improved. I could learn and improve, especially if I was interested.


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire* 
My mom always said "it's not HOW you sing, it's THAT you sing."

That's a good way to encourage kids to do something for themselves without being dependant on judgement. I like that phrase!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OdeToJoy* 
So many people on American Idol actually think that they can really sing well. It amazes me that not even their friends have told them that they are not particularly talented in singing. I mean so many of them are absolutely horrible singers. I think it's actually mean to let them make fools of themselves. If that happened to me, I would ask my friends/family why they didn't tell me the truth.

Yeah it's pretty appalling to me that no one would have told those people NOT to go on national tv and sing!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
He's alright now, but he's still a little irked that his parents didn't insert a little reality. Like I said, the talent was real; if they had reacted realistically he would have had a chance to cultivate it appropriately instead of being embarrassed to within an inch of his life.

Yeah, your example says what I was thinking. Singing/drawing/whatever for fun is one thing. But when it becomes more, I think constructive criticism is a good thing. And you can do that and be very supportive!
Dp made a cd, and is doing another one. His voice was a little, um, off in some areas. Not a lot, he was right on for the most part. I told him that he had a very nice sounding voice (I love singers who have his type of voice), and that singing in tune can definitely improve with practice and experience. And it did, and I don't think he took it harshly at all.


----------



## jazzharmony (Nov 10, 2006)

What I would really like to know is......why the heck doesn't SOMEONE, anyone, tell Donald Trump that his combover isn't working for him????


----------



## Mamma Mia (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jazzharmony* 
What I would really like to know is......why the heck doesn't SOMEONE, anyone, tell Donald Trump that his combover isn't working for him????

I think Rosie told him a few times over the past couple weeks but IIRC he actually came out and said that he likes his hair.


----------



## jazzharmony (Nov 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamma Mia* 
I think Rosie told him a few times over the past couple weeks but IIRC he actually came out and said that he likes his hair.









Ahhh yes I heard about their scuffle on the news. But seriously, all these years and no wives or friends have asked/begged him to do something decent with his hair. Not like better hair would change his personality. Oh well.


----------



## Moon Faerie (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jazzharmony* 
What if the parent is tone deaf? Why are parents automatically the judge of musical talent? Having taught music classes for families, let me tell you parents quite often sing loud and can't carry a tune.

It won't crush someone who loves music to apply and not be accepted to Juilliard, trust me.

I disagree wholeheartedly. I had toyed with the idea of being a music major in college, though at a less prestigious school and closer to home. That changed after my senior year all-state auditions. I was prepared and was certainly talented enough. I came out of the prepared room with the highest score.Then I went into sight-reading and choked. I ended up not making the all-state band by 14 points (out of a possible 3000). I _was_crushed and spent a good week crying about it. That was the turning point for me,and I decided how much I enjoyed it, I didn't want to have to deal with the auditions and competition and rejection for the rest of my life.


----------



## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *becoming* 
I wouldn't tell them they were BAD at it, but I also wouldn't give them false hope by complimenting their talents, etc.

ITA


----------



## jazzharmony (Nov 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nikel1979* 
I disagree wholeheartedly. I had toyed with the idea of being a music major in college, though at a less prestigious school and closer to home. That changed after my senior year all-state auditions. I was prepared and was certainly talented enough. I came out of the prepared room with the highest score.Then I went into sight-reading and choked. I ended up not making the all-state band by 14 points (out of a possible 3000). I _was_crushed and spent a good week crying about it. That was the turning point for me,and I decided how much I enjoyed it, I didn't want to have to deal with the auditions and competition and rejection for the rest of my life.

So should your parents have told you that your sight reading wasn't good enough?? Should you have not auditioned?
I don't understand your point, but perhaps my exhaustion is to blame.


----------



## Moon Faerie (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jazzharmony* 
So should your parents have told you that your sight reading wasn't good enough?? Should you have not auditioned?
I don't understand your point, but perhaps my exhaustion is to blame.

By point was that you said that someone that loves music and auditions to Julliard and doesn't get accepted won't be crushed. I disagree. My parents are/were musically clueless (my mom can't even find the beat while listening to a march), so they're opinion wouldn't have mattered. However, it would have been nice to be prepared to deal with the rejection. Even though the judges were nice, I wasn't prepared to handle failing at something. And no, I wasn't constantly praised as a child.


----------



## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

I'd offer to pay for lessons, so that they could maximize their ability.


----------



## jazzharmony (Nov 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nikel1979* 
By point was that you said that someone that loves music and auditions to Julliard and doesn't get accepted won't be crushed. I disagree.

But not crushed enough to give up something that they love. In your case, your parents could not have prepared you (besides sight reading specific lessons maybe) for failing at an audition. Rejection is part of life experience.

I'm not sure parents can prepare a child for failure without crushing their spirit. I guess it also depends on the age of the child.


----------



## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Depending on the age of the child--I wouldn't tell my 3 yr old singing and dancing around the living room, "honey, you can't sing worth a darn and your attempts are painful to listen to," but neither would I encourage a vocally-challenged teenager to go on American Idol and tell her that she was going to be famous. I do strongly believe that parents should be honest with themselves, if diplomatic with their children, about their children's strengths and weaknesses, rather than falling into the "my baby is good at everything" mindset. I think, at a certain point, kids really need honest feedback about their abilities, and parents need to recognize this if only so that they can better provide help with problem areas and/or gentle guidance towards more appropriate paths, as the situation may dictate. My parents tended to take a "my baby is good at everything" attitude (or, to the extent they acknowledged my lack of aptitude for certain skills, it was only because I was a misunderstood genius and so it wouldn't make any difference anyway), and, while I am incredibly grateful for their open-minded confidence, I think I would have benefited at least from more recognition that some areas were not for me.

What I'm saying, I guess, is that, while I wouldn't criticize a child's performance, if my kid could see that her natural abilities weren't in a certain area, I wouldn't deny her reality or give her false hope by saying "No, you're really good! You can do anything if you put your mind to it!"


----------



## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Have you ever listened to Bruce Springsteen or Paula Abdul, for that matter? The first can't sing at all, but he's still great to listen to. Paula Abdul is like nails on a chalk board, to me. Yuck! I bet her parents never told her that, and I don't think it was their business to do so.

I was an awful singer as a child, but, with practice, I sing passably well. I'm glad my parents did shut me down telling me I wasn't very good.


----------



## Corri (Jul 7, 2005)

Quote:

How does one's psyche get built up with false expectations like that? It's really fascinating to me.
By the time we see contestants on AI, at least, they've already been through something like two or three pre-screen auditions with other producers. The judges only end up seeing something like 10% of the original auditioners, maybe fewer - the producers screen for the really good singers and the people who will make "good tv." (read: the crazy ones who will embarass themselves and curse at the judges, that the show can make fun of for weeks and weeks).

Quote:

These "contestants" have been selected by the preliminary panels in a negative sense, a typical combination is lack of singing ability combined with vanity regarding their "talent." Others are selected for human interest potential, the 2005 auditions featured a "cannibal" who had sampled human flesh in an anthropology class and an aspiring female prize fighter.
(from "All About American Idol")

So by the time we see them, these poor talentless kids have already been followed by cameras and given interview profiles, been invited back for more than one audition, and probably been buttered up by the producers to think they're a shoo-in to go to Hollywood. Why shouldn't they be confident? They're built up just so that they can be broken down for our entertainment - it's bread and circuses entertainment, like the gladiators in Ancient Rome.

That doesn't excuse the parents who really should know better, but it at least explains some of the ridiculous cockiness.

And of course, I still can't help watching the darn show.


----------



## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nikel1979* 
By point was that you said that someone that loves music and auditions to Julliard and doesn't get accepted won't be crushed. I disagree. My parents are/were musically clueless (my mom can't even find the beat while listening to a march), so they're opinion wouldn't have mattered. However, it would have been nice to be prepared to deal with the rejection. Even though the judges were nice, I wasn't prepared to handle failing at something. And no, I wasn't constantly praised as a child.

Imagine if the opposite had happened and your parents told you not to apply because they didn't think you were good enough. For the rest of your life, you might be saying, "my parents are so clueless about music and they told me I wasn't good enough to apply to Juilliard. If they only had believed in me, I could have followed through on this dream."

Failing is hard. I have failed spectacularly at a few things in my life but I don't regret trying because now I know. I also tend to believe that if someone doesn't fail, they aren't trying that hard because then you aren't pushing your boundaries. I do think you have a good point about helping our kids deal with failure and that is an important skill to learn.


----------



## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

No. I think that telling someone that they "stink" at something, or joking about how they shouldn't quit their day job does them a disservice. For one thing, it doesn't encourage them to work to get better -- it totally discounts the fact that a little (even so tiny that no one else can see it) talent coupled with a lot of determination can overcome many things. If you think that your child wants to do something that they don't excel at naturally, help them by signing them up for lessons, or by hooking them up with an understanding mentor. They may quickly find that the amount of work outweighs the joy they receive from it, or they may rise to the challenge and get way better. Even if they don't make it their career, they may find a life long hobby.

If you don't think someone is good, don't say they are, but it's not cool to tell someone that they stink. It's rude, and does them no favors. The words of criticism (because that's what they are) have the potential to rob them of the joy of expressing themselves. With children, you may even be wrong. The quality of a person's voice changes over time, and with one's ability to modulate it. However, the voice of someone they trust saying that they can't do something will stick with them forever. Seriously.

I truly believe that life is about progress. And there are many different levels at which we can enjoy an activity. How many of us would tell our children that they are terrible at baseball or soccer or running? Wouldn't we rate their enjoyment of the sport over their actual proficiency? Perhaps concentrating your comments on much they enjoy singing or what have you is the best approach. I think we are far too quick to usurp any talent a child shows and try to turn it into a career -- the flip side of that coin is discounting anything a child likes but isn't good at.


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Has ANYONE here advocated telling kids they "stink" at something?

Anybody?


----------



## tiffer23 (Nov 7, 2005)

I haven't read what others said, but here's my opinion...

I would never tell my child he was wonderful at something he wasn't. I also wouldn't tell him he was horrible at something he loved. I would tell him maybe that *I* loved his singing and he sounds great to me. Once he got old enough (obviously by the time he could try for AI) I would let him know that while *I* would always love to hear him sing, that by other people's standards he might not have what it takes. And I would try to suggest other things for him to do, and bring up things he was good at.

But no, I wouldn't let my child run off to do something and lie to him if he was truely bad at something.


----------



## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

Some of my favourite singers aren't great singers. But I like listening to them. I'm having a new-mommy brain moment and I can't bring the names of the people I'm thinking of to mind of course....

Janis Joplin! (praise google for putting together 1960s female singer died overdose with the right name on the first try







). Or Louis Armstrong.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

My MIL thinks it's really important and her responsibility to offer lots of criticism to her children on various things. It's such a huge downer. My dh got an arts fellowship for his poetry, and I don't think he ever told her about it. He did a reading at the public library for it and didn't invite her.

She then commented to me about how her first cousin and his wife cheer on their children. Their children are very high achievers by anyone's standards--good schools, nifty projects, good grades, exciting professional lives. She didn't learn any lesson from this, however--just commented on how she could never do that!

Criticism doesn't do anything good. Maybe praise isn't always the best thing, especially if it's indescriminate and inaccurate. But criticism is for sure a bad thing. No matter how loving a relationship you have, it's got to hurt. In fact, if your relationship is more loving, the criticism is going to hurt worse because they won't be able to dismiss it.

I think my plan is going to be to let my guy become an expert on whether he's good at whatever it is or not. After all, my husband knows a lot more about poetry than his parents.

Also--I'm not going to get a TV set so i don't have to watch the drek you describe here!


----------

