# Grace Based Parenting/Biblical Parenting



## Janelovesmax (Feb 17, 2006)

Did any of you mamas read these books? They are Christian Parenting books. Any input?


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

My copy of Biblical Parenting should arrive this week







I've read Crystal Luttons website a lot. Grace Based Parenting has some good stuff, but it also offers at least one example of spanking. Honestly, Unconditional Parenting is more inline with my beliefs, but of the two books I would definitely prefer Biblical Parenting I think. Another of my favorite Christian resources is the blog of another mama here: www.gracefulparenting.blogspot.com


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## Janelovesmax (Feb 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dulce de leche* 
My copy of Biblical Parenting should arrive this week







I've read Crystal Luttons website a lot. Grace Based Parenting has some good stuff, but it also offers at least one example of spanking. Honestly, Unconditional Parenting is more inline with my beliefs, but of the two books I would definitely prefer Biblical Parenting I think. Another of my favorite Christian resources is the blog of another mama here: www.gracefulparenting.blogspot.com









Thanks for input. Oh no about GBD! That is such a turn off.


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

I was really disapppointed about that, too. I mean, it is light years away from Dobson/Ezzo stuff, but still...

I have the Sears Christian Parenting book, too. I'm kind of a parenting book junkie


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## Janelovesmax (Feb 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dulce de leche* 
I was really disapppointed about that, too. I mean, it is light years away from Dobson/Ezzo stuff, but still...

I have the Sears Christian Parenting book, too. I'm kind of a parenting book junkie









Me too!







I have so many! The thing is I have GBD and Biblical Parenting coming in the mail as we speak, so I'm a little dissapointed. I also have Kids Are Worth It on the way. Please, I am addicted to them. It's terrible.


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

I totally understand! One way that I look at it is that I know people who are so far on the opposite end of the spectrum that they would be completely closed to something like UP, but might be open to something like GBD or Sears. Didn't someone on here once say that Sears is sort of like the gateway drug?


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dulce de leche* 
Grace Based Parenting has some good stuff, but it also offers at least one example of spanking.

This is news to me. Do you have a source/reference about this info? Thanks.

Pat


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## Janelovesmax (Feb 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dulce de leche* 
I totally understand! One way that I look at it is that I know people who are so far on the opposite end of the spectrum that they would be completely closed to something like UP, but might be open to something like GBD or Sears. Didn't someone on here once say that Sears is sort of like the gateway drug?









That's funny.

I'm open to all books at this point...I have UP and Naomi Aldort's book and Connection Parenting... I feel like I'm like a sponge, sucking the information and trying to learn as much as I can.
Thank you for your input.


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
This is news to me. Do you have a source/reference about this info? Thanks.

Pat

It has been awhile since I have read it, but I'll try to find the page reference and let you know. My dc are about ready for bed, so I may not get to it right away, but I'll post as soon as I do.


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## kindergirl77 (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dulce de leche* 
It has been awhile since I have read it, but I'll try to find the page reference and let you know. My dc are about ready for bed, so I may not get to it right away, but I'll post as soon as I do.

I have read Crystals website, her 'Biblical Parenting' book as well as her newest book, 'Grace-based Living' and there is NO condoning of spanking in any way shape or form. I have spoken to Crystal in person and have seen how she parents. SHe is wonderful and very balanced, in my opinion but would NEVER tell anyone to spank.

In fact you can ask Crystal questions on www.gentlechristianmothers.com
that is another site she is the Admin on.


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## kindergirl77 (Jun 30, 2005)

I just wanted to add that Crystal did not write 'Grace Based Parenting' - that book is by Tim Kimmel- I think thats maybe where the confusion is. I totally got confused for a second there! The GBP book is not the same as the 'Grace Based Discipline' tools that are endorsed by Crystal Lutton.


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## kindergirl77 (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dulce de leche* 
My copy of Biblical Parenting should arrive this week







I've read Crystal Luttons website a lot. Grace Based Parenting has some good stuff, but it also offers at least one example of spanking. Honestly, Unconditional Parenting is more inline with my beliefs, but of the two books I would definitely prefer Biblical Parenting I think. Another of my favorite Christian resources is the blog of another mama here: www.gracefulparenting.blogspot.com









I really really liked Unconditional Parenting except for the whole Christian bashing paragraphs.







: But the overall attitude towards children is right on! Crystal isn't too fond of Alfie Kohn... he has called her GBD methods 'coersive' and 'doing to'. And I have found that there are some differences in what some consider 'Gentle' Discipline', from AK's point of view and from Crystal's GBD.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
This is news to me. Do you have a source/reference about this info? Thanks.


Yeah, me too. I bought this for a friend, and I read most of it before I sent it to her. I am an atheist, and I really liked it. Never saw anything about spanking.


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

Yes, GBD is Tim Kimmel, not Crystal Lutton. I know that Pastor Lutton would never endorse spanking.

OK, I found it. There isn't much there, although I may have missed one because I was just skimming, but on page 224 he says that his son would look corporal punishment in the the eye and not flinch, so that they had to develop other methods of punishment. He contrasts this with his daughter who would start crying before the first swat (implying that it was very effective for her). He goes on to basically leave it to the parents to decide what works for them.

Slightly, OT, but on pp 100-101 he also endorses scheduling infant feeding as opposed to "the philosophies of feeding that lead to overattachment, overdependence, and overprotection".







:

Re: Alfie Kohn vs Crystal Lutton, yeah I've noticed the differences. I also read the links on www.aolff.org about CL/TCS and although I admittedly have a lot to learn about the whole CL perspective, I felt that her representation of it meaning that adults must always sacrifice to ridiculous lengths to appease every whim of a child to be inaccurate. At least, from what I have read it is about finding good solutions for *everyone*, including the parents, and that doing something that is building resentment is unhealthy regardless of whose needs are being ignored.

That said, she has a lot of information that I agree with, and I think that her work is a great reference for parents


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dulce de leche* 
Yes, GBD is Tim Kimmel,


I believe you mean GBParenting is Tim Krimmel. GBD is Lutton and the Gentle Christian Mothers. I didn't know there was a GBP, separate from GBD. I thought they were one and the same. Thank you for clarifying that they are not related. I reference GBD for Christians who lean more toward authoritarian parenting.

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dulce de leche* 
Re: Alfie Kohn vs Crystal Lutton, yeah I've noticed the differences. I also read the links on www.aolff.org about CL/TCS and although I admittedly have a lot to learn about the whole CL perspective, I felt that her representation of it meaning that adults must always sacrifice to ridiculous lengths to appease every whim of a child to be inaccurate. At least, from what I have read it is about finding good solutions for *everyone*, including the parents, and that doing something that is building resentment is unhealthy regardless of whose needs are being ignored.


And I would assert that the link discusses punitive vs. permissive; not punitive vs. CL/TCS. I agree with your perspective that CL/TCS are not permissive because they are about finding solutions for *everyone*, including the parents. And CL and TCS are different in nuanced philosophical ways also. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ighlight=wuwei

I would definitely agree that GBD is not UP; nor is UP, CL; nor is UP, TCS. How is that for a stream of acronyms.








http://www.mothering.com/discussions...kohn+continuum

Pat


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

Thank you so much for the clarification, Pat! And also for catching my typo.







You are completely right. I am looking forward to reading those links.


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## Janelovesmax (Feb 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dulce de leche* 
Yes, GBD is Tim Kimmel, not Crystal Lutton. I know that Pastor Lutton would never endorse spanking.

OK, I found it. There isn't much there, although I may have missed one because I was just skimming, but on page 224 he says that his son would look corporal punishment in the the eye and not flinch, so that they had to develop other methods of punishment. He contrasts this with his daughter who would start crying before the first swat (implying that it was very effective for her). He goes on to basically leave it to the parents to decide what works for them.

Slightly, OT, but on pp 100-101 he also endorses scheduling infant feeding as opposed to "the philosophies of feeding that lead to overattachment, overdependence, and overprotection".







:

Re: Alfie Kohn vs Crystal Lutton, yeah I've noticed the differences. I also read the links on www.aolff.org about CL/TCS and although I admittedly have a lot to learn about the whole CL perspective, I felt that her representation of it meaning that adults must always sacrifice to ridiculous lengths to appease every whim of a child to be inaccurate. At least, from what I have read it is about finding good solutions for *everyone*, including the parents, and that doing something that is building resentment is unhealthy regardless of whose needs are being ignored.

That said, she has a lot of information that I agree with, and I think that her work is a great reference for parents


I just got the book and found the passage that you are telling about. It's interesting that he wrote this at the end of his book, since I haven't read the book yet, was there any implication about spanking throughout the book or were you shocked to read this paragraph after reading almost the entire book?







: I browse thru the book briefly and seems to me that he hasn't mentioned spanking up until that moment...

I spoke to Crystal Lutton briefly and she is not supportive of complete non-coersive parenting..., but I think she meant it exactly as you described, the type of non-coersive parenting that doesn't give children clear limits. According to her site a parent should be a leader/authorative figure/role model, she doesn't support "everyone is happy and on the same level" philosophy...Unless I read it wrong...that's how I understood it.


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

I was surprised to see it. GBP (I got it right this time







) is much more about philosophy of parenting and doesn't give much of a prescription of techniques to use, so he was pretty vague through most of the book. After reading books that view all people as trying to get their needs met, things like where he considers all people basically lazy and the passage on infant feeding stood out to me.

I feel like I am in kind of a weird place in that I really like a lot of the ideas of CL, but in practice I am much more coercive than I would like to be. UP seems more attainable to me. I read one place where Crystal described her views as on the low-coercion end, but that ultimately had the parents in control. That sounds pretty close to where we are.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Janelovesmax* 
I just got the book and found the passage that you are telling about. It's interesting that he wrote this at the end of his book, since I haven't read the book yet, was there any implication about spanking throughout the book or were you shocked to read this paragraph after reading almost the entire book?







: I browse thru the book briefly and seems to me that he hasn't mentioned spanking up until that moment...

I spoke to Crystal Lutton briefly and she is not supportive of complete non-coersive parenting..., but I think she meant it exactly as you described, the type of non-coersive parenting that doesn't give children clear limits. According to her site a parent should be a leader/authorative figure/role model, she doesn't support "everyone is happy and on the same level" philosophy...Unless I read it wrong...that's how I understood it.


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## pampered_mom (Mar 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kindergirl77* 
I really really liked Unconditional Parenting except for the whole Christian bashing paragraphs.







: But the overall attitude towards children is right on!

I can understand where you are coming from here. I guess my biggest issue with his statements is that in order to make that broad of a generalization you'd have to ignore many other aspects of Christianity/passages from the Bible.

I would have to say that I certain respect GBD and GCM, but don't really feel that it fits me 100% per se.

OP - I think that being a sponge is a good thing! :0) I for one have had a hard time pointing to just one book and saying "that's it! that's all I need". It seems more like they all combine to make up the whole.







Does that even make sense?


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## Janelovesmax (Feb 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pampered_mom* 
I can understand where you are coming from here. I guess my biggest issue with his statements is that in order to make that broad of a generalization you'd have to ignore many other aspects of Christianity/passages from the Bible.

I would have to say that I certain respect GBD and GCM, but don't really feel that it fits me 100% per se.

OP - I think that being a sponge is a good thing! :0) I for one have had a hard time pointing to just one book and saying "that's it! that's all I need". It seems more like they all combine to make up the whole.







Does that even make sense?

It makes perfect sense. The thing is I find truths in many of the books I read and there is not one book that was total me. Actually one of the reasons why I ordered Crystal's book is because I felt like I just cannot be totally non-coersive. I just don't know how.







. I cannot differentiate between being permissive and non-coersive. And my son is just so ugh, a challenge...so strong and so intelligent...I need low-coersive approach but combined with my intellectual pull towards CL/UP. I felt that maybe if I turn towards GBD, it might give me more of an idea of how to be a better leader/role model to my child, i/off being a pushover.


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## kindergirl77 (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
I would definitely agree that GBD is not UP; nor is UP, CL; nor is UP, TCS. How is that for a stream of acronyms.








Pat

I thought that TCS is the UP 'group', meaning Kohn endorses or is even active onTCS (Taking Children Seriously)and that the Kohn followers who have read Unconditional parenting (UP) have formed TCS???


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kindergirl77* 
I thought that TCS is the UP 'group', meaning Kohn endorses or is even active on TCS (Taking Children Seriously)and that the Kohn followers who have read Unconditional parenting (UP) have formed TCS???

NO. Alfie Kohn closed his UP message board due to TCS posters speaking up so strongly against coercion, basically. TCS is taboo on the UP yahoogroup also. Originally, I believe that he may have mentioned TCS in some reference in his book; but he definitely has differences of opinion from TCS. He doesn't see eye to eye with CL (or unschooling) either, from my understanding. He is much more authoritarian than either of those, imo. He'd say "authoritative", I believe. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Uncond...guid=287472904

ETA: TCS predates UP, I believe.

Pat


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## kindergirl77 (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
NO. Alfie Kohn closed his UP message board due to TCS posters speaking up so strongly against coercion, basically. TCS is taboo on the UP yahoogroup also. Originally, I believe that he may have mentioned TCS in some reference in his book; but he definitely has differences of opinion from TCS. He doesn't see eye to eye with CL (or unschooling) either, from my understanding. He is much more authoritarian than either of those, imo. He'd say "authoritative", I believe. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Uncond...guid=287472904

ETA: TCS predates UP, I believe.

Pat

Okay nevermind I guess I was way off on that!


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Don't write Ted Kimmel off completely- I've never read Grace Based Parenting but I LOVED his book on raising a child to be truly successful ("Raising kids for true greatness") really, really good.


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## Janelovesmax (Feb 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumster* 
Don't write Ted Kimmel off completely- I've never read Grace Based Parenting but I LOVED his book on raising a child to be truly successful ("Raising kids for true greatness") really, really good.

Oh, I will definitely still read his book. I'm sure he has a lot of good suggestions.


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## Janelovesmax (Feb 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
NO. Alfie Kohn closed his UP message board due to TCS posters speaking up so strongly against coercion, basically. TCS is taboo on the UP yahoogroup also. Originally, I believe that he may have mentioned TCS in some reference in his book; but he definitely has differences of opinion from TCS. He doesn't see eye to eye with CL (or unschooling) either, from my understanding. He is much more authoritarian than either of those, imo. He'd say "authoritative", I believe. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Uncond...guid=287472904

ETA: TCS predates UP, I believe.

Pat


And here I thought that you can't get any more "unauthoritative" then Alfie Kohn.


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