# Did you know your child is more likely to be struck by lightning than kidnapped...



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

...by a stranger? So says that dude John Stossell on 20/20, right now in my living room.

I've brought this up before and asked about how much fear we are putting in our children, and why are we calling CPS and the cops on other mothers who leave their children in the cart while they take a pee at the grocery store. And I've been SHOT DOWN, as have others.

But, now that it's been *validated* by a TV show, anyone wanna talk about whether it's smart to put all this 'stranger danger' fear into our children for such an infintessimally small risk?


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## Alohamelly (Jul 1, 2005)

I'm watching it right now and I don't know ... I think I'd rather play it safe with my child. She isn't super fearful of strangers but I do think I've taught her to be cautious of people. I'm cautious myself!


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
But, now that it's been *validated* by a TV show, anyone wanna talk about whether it's smart to put all this 'stranger danger' fear into our children for such an infintessimally small risk?

Sure! I am anti stranger-danger. I am all for teaching kids to listen to their intuition. I'm much more worried about a situation where my child finds someone "icky" or "scary" than some random stranger in the grocery store.

-Angela


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Did you see how terrified those kids he interviewed were about being kidnapped? I was terrified like that as a child. All for naught. More likely struck by lightning. Huh.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
More likely struck by lightning. Huh.

Maybe we need to teach more lightning safety.

-Angela


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Maybe we need to teach more lightning safety.

-Angela

Really. And call CPS on mamas if we see them out with their kids in the rain.







:


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

I think I'm going to start strapping a lightning pole to my kids' heads.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
I think I'm going to start strapping a lightning pole to my kids' heads.

But then wont they scrape the bathroom walls when they lean over to play in the toilet?


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## beansavi (Jun 26, 2005)

Does this information mean I can let my kids play in lightening storms from now on?

I don't think either one is safe.

Kindnapping may be low while we are off taking a pee, but one in four kids are *molested*, and only one in four of those ever tell anyone. And some children are molested in a split second, while someone literally just walks by, grabs them between the legs, and keeps on going.

Duh.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
But then wont they scrape the bathroom walls when they lean over to play in the toilet?









Duh. Of course not. I have the pole run into grooves in the ceiling, litle tracks, right? This is to prevent them from being kidnapped.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beansavi* 
Kindnapping may be low while we are off taking a pee, but one in four kids are *molested*, and only one in four of those ever tell anyone.

And yet omg the sh!tstorm that rose up when someone suggested extra screening for male babysitters, altho men statistically are by far the most likely perps.

And we drive our kids around in cars at huge speeds all day right? Gotta be more chance of serious injury from that than kidnapping and lightning.

For me it demonstrates how affected we are as a culture by what we are taught. We've had stranger danger drilled into our heads, but car danger not so much... wouldn't be good for industry.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Duh. Of course not. I have the pole run into grooves in the ceiling, litle tracks, right? This is to prevent them from being kidnapped.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

And it's like... what is lost from this fear? Freedom? Sense of safety? I know in my generation this crap was DRILLED into us, to the point where it haunted me at night. The children interviewed in this piece spoke of the same thing. Why haunt and terrorize our children over something this minute?


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

I think it also takes someone to become PASSIONATE about something. Parents who have lost kids in accidents have become vocal leaders about carseat safety. And just think of Adam Walsh....

We as humans...as MOTHERS....desperately want to control things. So we take and make the things we CAN control, like carseats and minding our kids in public, and worry on them.

Lightning strikes on the other hand...not much you can do about those besides not sending your child out for a lovely swim in the middle of July thunderstorm.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beansavi* 
Does this information mean I can let my kids play in lightening storms from now on?

I don't think either one is safe.

Kindnapping may be low while we are off taking a pee, but one in four kids are *molested*, and only one in four of those ever tell anyone. And some children are molested in a split second, while someone literally just walks by, grabs them between the legs, and keeps on going.

Duh.

What's your point?

When I was a kid, my sister and I used to catch the bus halfway across town to go to movies with a friend (he was 8, I was 7, and my sister was 6 when we started). Other times, we'd walk the ten blocks to the rec center and go swimming. I never - not once - had an unpleasant encounter with a stranger, nor was I ever molested. We did these outings on a regular basis for years.

However, I was molested by my grandfather, with my grandmother's knowledge (he was seriously brain-damaged and couldn't have gotten far without her help in the form of the "buy off"). I was molested years later by the janitor at my elementary school.

So, I'm one of the four. (Where do you get your stats, btw? I love how people say "this number of kids are molested, and most of them never tell anyone". Where do the numbers come from? Educated guesswork is still guesswork.) I'm not worried about the random guy who walks by my kids at the grocery store, unless I get a bad gut reaction to him.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
And we drive our kids around in cars at huge speeds all day right? Gotta be more chance of serious injury from that than kidnapping and lightning.

My dh has a saying "Driving is probably the most dangerous thing you do all day - and probably the most dangerous thing you expose your kids to on a daily basis. Give it a modicum of respect and STOP TALKING ON YOUR F--ING CELL PHONE!"

Okay, he usually shouts this while watching some mom in a huge SUV drive like a drunk on speed, while chatting on her phone about god knows what, and the kids in the carseats in the back.

RE: the point about kids being molested. Kids are much more likely to be molested by someone they know - a family member or a neighbor. So stranger danger is a fantasy we believe that we can keep bad people from our kids and that we know what bad people look like.

I plan on teaching my kids street smarts. It starts with training my 3 year old how to say (sing, actually) his name, address, and telephone number.

Siobhan


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## funkygranolamama (Aug 10, 2005)

Didn't they also say tap water is safe to drink? Hmmmm. I caught most of the show but missed that part, so clue me in if I'm misinformed about what they said, but I personally don't care to drink tap water. Ew.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
Okay, he usually shouts this while watching some mom in a huge SUV drive like a drunk on speed, while chatting on her phone about god knows what, and the kids in the carseats in the back.

I've seen this quite a bit, too. Putting a kid in a carseat, then crossing four lanes of traffic against a red light isn't keeping your kids safe.

I plan to take a defensive driving course when I'm a little more experienced (I've only been driving for a year and a half). I think being in the van, and being a pedestrian near traffic, are the most dangerous parts of my kid's live.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

My tap water is cold and yummy and just as good as any ol bottled schtuff


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkygranolamama* 
Didn't they also say tap water is safe to drink? Hmmmm. I caught most of the show but missed that part, so clue me in if I'm misinformed about what they said, but I personally don't care to drink tap water. Ew.

I don't know if it's 100% safe, but I'm very sure my tap water is safer to drink than the water a lot of the earth's people are stuck with.


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## airmide_m (May 8, 2006)

When I hear stuff like that it always brings up more questions than answers for me. For instance what if (not saying I believe either way) the reason stranger kidnapping is so much less likely is because of all the stranger-danger education? Because so many families do a lot to avoid risks, like not leaving kids unattended, or teaching them not to get in a van to see a puppy? If we stopped teaching parents to be vigilant and kids to be careful would the incidence of stranger-kidnapping increase due to increased opportunities?

And isn't that like a national average risk? I would think that doesn't mean your particular individual child has less (or more) risk of being kidnapped by a stranger than being hit by lighting. I would imagine that a lot of risk factors would go into that individual calculation, one of the biggest being location. Wouldn't an unattended kid in say...the New York subway have a greater chance of getting kidnapped by a stranger than an unattended kid at a mom-n-pop grocery in a tiny rural town far from tourism and drive-through traffic?

I think the real question is how do we keep a healthy balance? My main concern is how to teach my children to avoid danger without robbing them of their innocence, and remain cautious myself without being ruled by fear.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I don't know if it's 100% safe, but I'm very sure my tap water is safer to drink than the water a lot of the earth's people are stuck with.

well that is true.

It also depends on where you live. In Washington, DC, they had elevated lead levels in the drinking water for years. But out in Fairfax county, where I live, no lead. Our water is considered pretty good.

London had a contaminated water crisis a few years back - supposedly it was out of control and growing until it hit Buckingham Palace - and then BOOM, it got fixed. Funny, that.

Oh, and NYC water is supposedly some of the best water in the world. Some company even bottles it and sells it. Who knew?

However, this site has some interesting facts over the leading causes of child mortality in the US.

http://mchb.hrsa.gov/mchirc/chusa_04/pages/0436cm.htm
Unintentional injury is number one, by far, with 33.8% of all deaths of children under 4 in the US.

This site breaks out unintentional injury by type - motor vehicle crashes are the leading cause, with drowning number two.
http://mchb.hrsa.gov/mchirc/chusa_04/pages/0437cddi.htm

But something to keep in mind - in 2002, 1,641 children under the age of 4 died from an unintentional injury (including motor vehicle crashes and other causes). The census reports that the estimated population of children under the age of 5 in the US for 2002 was 19,537,222. That is a ridiculously small percentage of children in the US who die from the number one cause of death. Obviously a good thing. Homocide claimed only 423 children's lives in 2002.

Just keeping the facts in perspective.

Siobhan


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Maybe we need to teach more lightning safety.

-Angela

Funny you say that.. I live in Florida, which is the struck by lightening capitol of the northern hemisphere, and lightening safety is very much a real thing here.

No, I don't leave DD in a cart alone to pee at the super market, or alone in the car while I run into a store, but that doesn't mean I'm all "stranger danger" either.

I think teaching her to get out of the water when it gets stormy is going to be higher up on the ranking then telling her not to talk to strangers. Seriously.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *airmide_m* 
And isn't that like a national average risk? I would think that doesn't mean your particular individual child has less (or more) risk of being kidnapped by a stranger than being hit by lighting. I would imagine that a lot of risk factors would go into that individual calculation, one of the biggest being location. Wouldn't an unattended kid in say...the New York subway have a greater chance of getting kidnapped by a stranger than an unattended kid at a mom-n-pop grocery in a tiny rural town far from tourism and drive-through traffic?

Nope. bad people live everywhere, not just in NYC. And frankly, most kids in NYC are taught by their parents at an early age how to deal with people on the street - how to avoid eye contact, remove themselves from a situation, etc. And also very few parents in NYC would EVER leave a child unattended for any length of time. And in fact, most people in NYC are extremely aware of their environment - they NOTICE when something looks amiss, if a child is leaving with a different man than the child came with. It is the small town "nothing ever happens here, why lock our doors" environment where the best opportunity occurs.

Secondly, the number of true stranger kidnappings for under 12s is around 540 a year. 540 - with a population of over 40,000,000 children. This is a risk so small that it is nonsense to worry, except that it captures the imagination and terrifies parents.

http://gruntledcenter.blogspot.com/2...r-myth-of.html

I don't know what the cause of the low stranger kidnapping rate it (though I am glad for it). I do think fear of strangers distracts us from worrying about real danger - like confronting an overly affectionate uncle or teaching a daughter how to tell a neighborhood boy to stop touching her.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I think teaching her to get out of the water when it gets stormy is going to be higher up on the ranking then telling her not to talk to strangers. Seriously.

Since drowning is the number two cause of unintentional injury, yeppers! Our community pool has very strict rules about swimming with lightening.

My grandfather was struck by lightening sitting on a tractor in the middle of a field in Illinois- he lived, due to the honkin' big rubber tires on that thing. Tracker got fried, though - and we think grandpa was never 100% right afterwards.

What a depressing topic - hey, let's talk about the various ways our kids can get killed right before bedtime!







:


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I drink my tap water. Drinking some right now in fact.


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## BrooklynDoula (Oct 23, 2002)

Storm Bride - great post on childhood sexual assualt. You expressed what I wanted to say so well. Much like the stranger-danger of kidnaping, we have a false sense of this for sexual assualt and fail to notice, or to car, about the places and the people who are really assulating our children all too often. Thank you for your honesty and bravery.


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## BrooklynDoula (Oct 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *airmide_m* 

And isn't that like a national average risk? I would think that doesn't mean your particular individual child has less (or more) risk of being kidnapped by a stranger than being hit by lighting. I would imagine that a lot of risk factors would go into that individual calculation, one of the biggest being location. Wouldn't an unattended kid in say...the New York subway have a greater chance of getting kidnapped by a stranger than an unattended kid at a mom-n-pop grocery in a tiny rural town far from tourism and drive-through traffic?

Please. I live in NYC and let me tell you, an unattended child on a subway is a rarity although not unheard of, but those kids are SO safe. Unlike a mom-and-pop grocery where you only have to fool one peron into believing that is your kid, in NYC you got 1000s of eyes on you all the time and I can promise you NO ONE is walking off with someone else's kid here. The only time I have been near an aduction, which has happened twice actually, were both in Arizona while visiting MIL and they were both at small places (one a grocery in the evening) with not too many people. NYC is one of the safest paces in the country.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 







I drink my tap water. Drinking some right now in fact.

Our tap water smells like chlorine. With all the hurricanes and water warnings we get, our water is deemed "safe", but I dunno.. if I can SMELL the chlorine, I don't know that I want to be drinking it.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

The BIGGEST problem with the whole stranger danger thing IMO is that it makes us more likely to turn a blind eye to the much more likely problems. Like inappropriate contact from *trusted* people.

I plan to teach my children to be aware of the world around them and trust their intuition. If they're lost on a subway, look for someone that *feels* safe- not the first person in a uniform they see. And if Uncle George does *anything* that makes them feel uncomfortable that it's NOT OKAY.

-Angela


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
However, I was molested by my grandfather, with my grandmother's knowledge (he was seriously brain-damaged and couldn't have gotten far without her help in the form of the "buy off"). I was molested years later by the janitor at my elementary school.

I am so sorry for what happened to you.

Earlier generations' ways of dealing with abuse were "least said, soonest mended" with a good dose of blame the victim - without recognizing that this approach pretty much guarenteed no healing could happen and increased the likelihood for further abuse to occur. A culture of shame and silence are what allow abuse to happen.

Siobhan


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

ITA with you Alegna. Imagine that.







This is deja vu. What else did we agree on?


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## Rhiannon Feimorgan (Aug 26, 2005)

I read somewhere that a better rule to tell you children than "Don't talk to stangers" is "Don't go anywhere with anyone unless I say it's ok" This covers strangers without directly puting fear of other people in them. It also covers that family "friend" who might decide to walk off with them to.

I don't let my kids get in the car with grandma without asking me first. I don't however dwell on the idea that someone might hurt them if they do. I just need to know where they are and who they are with at all times. Because I'm Mom.


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## airmide_m (May 8, 2006)

I was just using NYC subway as a theoretical location, I've never been there so I don't have first hand experience, though my husband did grow up a few blocks from Jamaica Queens and spent the majority of his life in NYC and he's had plenty of good and bad first hand experiences which I hear about constantly...including "There are just SO MANY mentally ill people on the streets that people are much more cautious". And a story about a friend of his who tried to intervene when a woman was getting accosted by a group of people on the subway and in return they said "Oh you wanna be a hero?"...slit her throat ear to ear, stabbed him and left him for dead. But also stories of strangers helping and escorting him back to the right train when he accidentally took the subway too far into a "tough" area as a teenager, how everyone in his neighborhood watched out for each other (especially for the kids), and that people mostly mind their own business but stand up when something is blatantly out of place or wrong, though he's also seen plenty of people walk right on by, and that whole "lack of eye contact, averting the eyes" training can sometimes make it hard to really notice every detail of what's going on around you.

And as far as a mom-n-pop grocery in a very small town off the beaten path....my thinking is that first of all, the chances of a stranger "happening" through might be pretty low to begin with, and if everyone knows everyone (including the children) it's gonna be pretty obvious if a stranger tries to abduct a kid, plus there's more likely to be some meddling busybody watching every move everyone makes









Though I had a feeling people would jump on my possibly imperfect examples, I think my point about risk potentially varying based upon location and circumstance is still valid. As one of the pp noted, education and attitudes taught to parents and children (big city caution vs. small-town trust) would be one of the variables. As would the number of people on drugs, mentally unstable, sexual offenders (registered or not) etc. in or likely to be traveling through the area.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

I believe the county I live in is the "lightning capitol of the world"...similar to what was said above. Every year, people get struck by lightning in our county of approx 200K people, sometimes when there is not a cloud in the sky or a sign of storm anywhere. My in-laws (who lived 8-10 blocks away) had their air conditioner blown up by lightning and had to replace the entire thing. A friend within the last six months had lightning hit her roof and cause a fire, creating a big hole and ruining all her interior phone wiring. The fire department was quick and salvaged the house.

Also, just today, there was a 14 year old boy abducted by gunpoint in a nearby county and an emergency alert placed. About two years ago, a girl in our neighborhood (age 13) was kidnapped and the last place she was seen was at our local drugstore. In one of our neighborhood parks about 3 years ago, a 4 year old was abducted from the playground, while his mother was chatting in the adjoining pavilion, sexually assaulted by a stranger and dropped off at a 7-11. In the last year, a 5 year old girl was abducted from the elementary school 1 1/2 miles from our house, right after school. There are more local stories...I could go on...

There are about 40 register sexual offenders who did things to children 16 and under within 2 or 3 miles of our house.

I feel that being hit by lightning is something we need to watch for all the time. I am probably more afraid of that than of abductors BUT that's only because I am almost always with my children, but that doesn't mean that I am not vigilant and aware when it comes to the vague, but potential dangers of abduction.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Heck, I have a friend who won $6 million in the lottery...I'd think the chances of being abducted or assaulted by a stranger might well be more common than that.


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## airmide_m (May 8, 2006)

As I've been thinking more about this it's occurred to me that although the person may not be a stranger to US, they still may be to our child. For those of us who strive to keep abusive, dangerous or unpredictable acquaintances or relatives away from our children, I would think that "stranger-danger" would still be a concern and that the statistics might be slightly misleading from a child's perspective. If a child has never met, talked to or seen pictures of someone, to that child that person would for, all intents and purposes, appear as a stranger.

I am not at ALL saying that stranger-danger education should take anything away from education on other types of danger, or that we should live our lives in fear, just that education and precautions could be part of the continuing solution.


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## tiffer23 (Nov 7, 2005)

My first thought is that kidnapping isn't the only danger. What about sexual contact of some sort, or just something that's inappropriate. I will teach my son to be away of strangers and cautious. Not terrified of everyone he comes across, but not completely trusting either.


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

Maybe, thismama, one of the reasons that some parents "overdo" training about stranger danger to the point of scaring their kids is that we all know what happens to kids who are abducted by strangers... they mostly do not come back and within a few days there are sniffing dogs looking for their bodies and the parents are left to spend the rest of their lives being mentally and emotionally tortured by thoughts of how their darling spent his/her last hours or minutes. It's sensational news, yes, and not a real probability for most children. But it's out there, and I could not forgive myself ever, if I did not give my child every advantage to keep herself alive in this world in circumstances where I might not be physically present to protect her myself.

I think you do for your children what you feel strongly about. If you've had direct experience with stranger danger (I was accosted two different times in childhood by strangers... ), then you're probably going to value the idea differently than someone who has not. My daughter went through a period of anxiety brought on by my stranger danger education. But I saw her on a couple of occasions USE what she learned to secure her own safety. I've armed her with more personal security... good for many applications: with strangers, and with acquaintances who SHOULD be demoted to stranger.

I had to teach her about the dangers of hot stoves and flames even tho matches are fascinating, fast cars in the streets and driveways means she can't play willy nilly in or near them, germs from people coughing and not covering even though it's her best friend and she wants to play with her, etc.. Stranger danger is just another thing. Also, growling dogs, cats with arched backs, even though she is mad for animals, etc. There are lots of things we have to throw a wet blanket on our kids about... .

Stranger danger should simply be education, not a horror movie, though. I don't think it should be a graphic education. It should be age-appropriate. And I'm pretty sure that a lot of parents really struggle with just exactly how to finesse that age-appropriateness, and still others just blow it all out of proportion and aren't appropriate about it in the least.

I've seen an expose about John Stossel that demonstrated how some of his reports are absolute baloney... wildly incorrect claims, numbers, percentages. Really, seriously. He's not the standard-bearer for truth in reporting, so it has been claimed by some of his colleagues in high places.

VF


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Culture of fear. That is what we are suppose to live in to be "good" parents. The single most dangerous decision you can make for your child is to put them in a car. Yet, most people do it every single day. The most (statistically) dangerous people to leave your child in care of our family members and "good friends". I refuse to live my life in fear. I refuse to force my child to. I refuse to allow her to think every stranger is "bad". We talk about bad feelings, inappropriate behavior, insticts, etc..... But I will not perpetuate the myth that there is a kidnapper around every corner just waiting until I am not looking.

There was a thread on here not long ago in which people actually said they thought tent camping (in a tent right next to you) was too dangerous for kids. You know, for those knife wielding kidnappers that can silently cut open a tent and steal your child..... That is when I knew this fear thing had gone WAY too far.

Now lightening and tap water.......... That is a whole 'nother thread







JK.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
My dh has a saying "Driving is probably the most dangerous thing you do all day - and probably the most dangerous thing you expose your kids to on a daily basis. Give it a modicum of respect and STOP TALKING ON YOUR F--ING CELL PHONE!"

I'm with your dh


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *airmide_m* 
I

And as far as a mom-n-pop grocery in a very small town off the beaten path....my thinking is that first of all, the chances of a stranger "happening" through might be pretty low to begin with, and if everyone knows everyone (including the children) it's gonna be pretty obvious if a stranger tries to abduct a kid, plus there's more likely to be some meddling busybody watching every move everyone makes









I've lived in many small towns and I don't know if it's like this. yes, people know each other but the fact is that it could be easy to get a kid away depending on the circumstances. Sometimes people are really nosy and ask questions but they are also capable of shutting strangers out. A lady saw Adam Walsh talking to his abductor and she thought something was up but she didn't say anything until after it had happened.

Now if I'm at the playground, I'd notice a strange man FE and I'd be keeping track of whom he belongs to but a store is different. In some ways TBH people don't always notice kids or pay attention to them sad as it is. There are a lot of variables really.


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## Decca (Mar 14, 2006)

Quote:

I've seen an expose about John Stossel that demonstrated how some of his reports are absolute baloney... wildly incorrect claims, numbers, percentages. Really, seriously. He's not the standard-bearer for truth in reporting, so it has been claimed by some of his colleagues in high places.
Ironically, I think Stossel is one of the biggest fearmongerers there is. His reporting is sensationalistic and irresponsible. On a different segment in the same program, he admitted how he and his own show have stirred up the vaccine debate. I happen to vaccinate my child, but I wouldn't do so just because John Stossel said it was safe on 20/20 last night.

Anyway, to get back on topic, I really like Gavin DeBecker's _The Gift of Fear_ and _Protecting the Gift_ for actual useful information on threat assessment and teaching safety to children.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
Culture of fear. That is what we are suppose to live in to be "good" parents. The single most dangerous decision you can make for your child is to put them in a car. Yet, most people do it every single day. The most (statistically) dangerous people to leave your child in care of our family members and "good friends". I refuse to live my life in fear. I refuse to force my child to. I refuse to allow her to think every stranger is "bad". We talk about bad feelings, inappropriate behavior, insticts, etc..... But I will not perpetuate the myth that there is a kidnapper around every corner just waiting until I am not looking.

There was a thread on here not long ago in which people actually said they thought tent camping (in a tent right next to you) was too dangerous for kids. You know, for those knife wielding kidnappers that can silently cut open a tent and steal your child..... That is when I knew this fear thing had gone WAY too far.









:

And what are some of the outcomes of this fear? The children interviewed on this show said they were terrified at night and imagined someone would come get them in their sleep. I was like that, I remember it.

Our children don't play outside anymore, they don't go calling on the neighbour kids. We arrange playdates with the mothers by telephone. They don't walk to school like they used to. They don't run wild in the neighbourhood playing nicky nicky nine door on everyone like kids should.

We call CPS on anyone who leaves their children unattended in public for even a minute. It's become a mortal sin. Remember the European posters who have spoken about leaving the pram outside the shop window? We've lost the relaxed freedom here. And for what?

Yes, to the pp who said if your children get kidnapped it's bad. Well, it's also bad if they get struck by lightning! Why are you terrified of one and not the other?

Media + lack of critical thought is why, IMO. And yet we drive our gas guzzlers everywhere with our precious children inside.


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## bikruca (Mar 7, 2004)

i feel pretty safe where we are... i live in an area where leaving doors unlocked is the norm though...

actually dh is way more parinoid about lightning than stranger danger- someone he grew up with got hit when he was a kid.

I was never all that frightened of strangers growing up.. though i remember the videos in school... actually the one that still hauts me was about train saftey... scary scary


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 







:

And what are some of the outcomes of this fear? The children interviewed on this show said they were terrified at night and imagined someone would come get them in their sleep. I was like that, I remember it.

Our children don't play outside anymore, they don't go calling on the neighbour kids. We arrange playdates with the mothers by telephone. They don't walk to school like they used to. They don't run wild in the neighbourhood playing nicky nicky nine door on everyone like kids should.

We call CPS on anyone who leaves their children unattended in public for even a minute. It's become a mortal sin. Remember the European posters who have spoken about leaving the pram outside the shop window? We've lost the relaxed freedom here. And for what?

Yes, to the pp who said if your children get kidnapped it's bad. Well, it's also bad if they get struck by lightning! Why are you terrified of one and not the other?

Media + lack of critical thought is why, IMO. And yet we drive our gas guzzlers everywhere with our precious children inside.


Amen Amen Amen

and did I say

Amen?


----------



## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

I agree that fear in this country is blown way out of proportion. However, I have to take up with this statement: "The most dangerous thing you can do with your child is to put him in a car." I think this is just one more fear-mongering statement.

In 2002 43,000 people died in car accidents, and 2.92 million people were injured. The US population in 2002 was about 295 million. So .000145% of the population died in car crashes that year. Likewise only .0098% of the population was injured in car accidents that year. So yes, while many people are killed or injured in car accidents, in the grand scheme of things, the odds of you or your children dying or being injured in a car accident are very low. Yes, it happens. Yes, it's unlucky. But is it something we need to obsess about to such a high degree? Probably not.

I tend to be a pretty anxious person, so I consciously seek out information so that I won't drive myself crazy worrying about random possibilities. I have come to the conclusion that worring about things like kidnapping and dying in a car crash are not worth my time. That does not mean I won't be cautious or that I won't use a car seat, but I refuse to spend my days wringing my hands over long shot issues.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Sure! I am anti stranger-danger. I am all for teaching kids to listen to their intuition. I'm much more worried about a situation where my child finds someone "icky" or "scary" than some random stranger in the grocery store.

-Angela


Exactly! And truth betold, my children already understand this!Some people, who I would get checks about, my kids do as well. They don't want to respond with a "hi" Or say their name, etc.

Heck, my ds told me a model on the cover of a magazine looked "scary'


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

I'm not big on fear, but I will teach my son not to talk to strangers and not to accept rides from strangers or candy and all that stuff. That just seems like common sense to me.

But, if you ask my mother I was kidnapped when I was 5 years old. I say my mom's best friends husband picked me up from school and took me right home. She says he kidnapped me (even tried to press charges, not sure what happened) because he did not have her permission and she had no clue. Of course she also had no clue I was 'kidnapped' until she got to school (late) to pick me up and I was already gone, she went to my grandparents house and when I wasn't there (my grandpa picked me up from school a lot) she was on her way home to get a recent picture of me to give to the police and I was sitting on the front porch crying because I couldn't get in the house. *shrug* she was big on 'stranger danger' and 'the bad man' (which after her friends husband 'kidnapped' me 'the bad man' got a name. LOL)


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## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beansavi* 
Kindnapping may be low while we are off taking a pee, but one in four kids are *molested*, and only one in four of those ever tell anyone. And some children are molested in a split second, while someone literally just walks by, grabs them between the legs, and keeps on going.

I'm not really getting your point here. Really, if some jerk grabbed an otherwise healthy kid's crotch for a split second, I really doubt there will be any long-term harm there. Obviously it's not RIGHT, but is it worth denying our kids so much freedom?

(And the oft-quoted 25% figure all depends on who you ask and how you use your numbers.)


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srain* 
I'm not really getting your point here. Really, if some jerk grabbed an otherwise healthy kid's crotch for a split second, I really doubt there will be any long-term harm there. Obviously it's not RIGHT, but is it worth denying our kids so much freedom?

That is almost never what molestation looks like. It is usually from *someone known* to the child, and the long term consequences can be huge. Stranger danger is unwarranted here too IMO, because of the *known* factor.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
That is almost never what molestation looks like. It is usually from *someone known* to the child, and the long term consequences can be huge. Stranger danger is unwarranted here too IMO, because of the *known* factor.









:

I am much more afraid of long-term molestation by a known quantity than I am of kidnapping, truthfully.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srain* 
Really, if some jerk grabbed an otherwise healthy kid's crotch for a split second, I really doubt there will be any long-term harm there.

Inappropriate sexual contact is inappropriate sexual contact is inappropriate sexual contact. It all has the potential for "long-term harm" regardless of the duration of the act. As a matter of fact, no contact need take place for a child to be sexually victimized.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisac77* 
I agree that fear in this country is blown way out of proportion. However, I have to take up with this statement: "The most dangerous thing you can do with your child is to put him in a car." I think this is just one more fear-mongering statement.

In 2002 43,000 people died in car accidents, and 2.92 million people were injured.

Are there any other injuries or accidents where the number are that high? I don't really think thismama was saying that putting your kids in the car is playing Russian Roulette with them. But...43,000 people died in car accidents vs. 500-something kids being kidnapped? What do more people worry about? Most people I know spend more time teaching their kids "stranger danger" (which usually amounts to "don't talk to strangers") than they do teaching them to cross the street safely. I'd rather my son worry about cars running through stop signs, which I see at least once a week, than have him agonizing over whether the cashier at the grocery store or the postman counts as a "stranger".

Quote:

So yes, while many people are killed or injured in car accidents, in the grand scheme of things, the odds of you or your children dying or being injured in a car accident are very low. Yes, it happens. Yes, it's unlucky. But is it something we need to obsess about to such a high degree?
I don't think anyone was obsessing about it. It's just very strange the way we easily shrug off something that kills 43,000 people a year, but we obsess about something that happens to about 500.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:

Originally Posted by srain
Really, if some jerk grabbed an otherwise healthy kid's crotch for a split second, I really doubt there will be any long-term harm there..

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
Inappropriate sexual contact is inappropriate sexual contact is inappropriate sexual contact. It all has the potential for "long-term harm" regardless of the duration of the act. As a matter of fact, no contact need take place for a child to be sexually victimized.

I think in this sort of case the potential "long term harm" is more likely to be caused by the parent's reaction than by the act itself.


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

I don't teach my kids stranger danger. I do teach them to not let other adults pick them up without my okay -- or their (my kids' okay). My kids do not like to be taken for granted and will loudly shout and sass whatever adult tries to pick them up (like my husband's friend, who just wants to give our kids a hug...poor woman gets screamed at because she doesn't ask my kids first, she just starts to pick them up).

If we teach our kids about personal boundaries, and how it's okay to assert themselves to adults who are crossing boundaries (even as innocent as picking up to give a hug), then I think that's most of the battle. No need for fear-mongering.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Decca said:


> Ironically, I think Stossel is one of the biggest fearmongerers there is. His reporting is sensationalistic and irresponsible. On a different segment in the same program, he admitted how he and his own show have stirred up the vaccine debate. I happen to vaccinate my child, but I wouldn't do so just because John Stossel said it was safe on 20/20 last night.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisac77* 
I agree that fear in this country is blown way out of proportion. However, I have to take up with this statement: "The most dangerous thing you can do with your child is to put him in a car." I think this is just one more fear-mongering statement.

In 2002 43,000 people died in car accidents, and 2.92 million people were injured. The US population in 2002 was about 295 million. So .000145% of the population died in car crashes that year. Likewise only .0098% of the population was injured in car accidents that year. So yes, while many people are killed or injured in car accidents, in the grand scheme of things, the odds of you or your children dying or being injured in a car accident are very low. Yes, it happens. Yes, it's unlucky. But is it something we need to obsess about to such a high degree? Probably not.

I tend to be a pretty anxious person, so I consciously seek out information so that I won't drive myself crazy worrying about random possibilities. I have come to the conclusion that worring about things like kidnapping and dying in a car crash are not worth my time. That does not mean I won't be cautious or that I won't use a car seat, but I refuse to spend my days wringing my hands over long shot issues.










I think that people's personal experiences really color their fears. When I was in highschool, I knew 9 people who died in car accidents. It seemed like the most dangerous thing I could do was get in a car. I've known many more people who died in accidents than have been molested (yeah, I know not everyone tells me) so cars are really my biggest fear, even if it shouldn't be.


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## a_work_in_progress (May 17, 2006)

My ex fiance was struck by lightning. My daughter was abducted from church by a man we barely knew.

Numbers mean nothing when it happens to you.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *a_work_in_progress* 

Numbers mean nothing when it happens to you.

Which is why we should follow our own mommy instincts instead of worrying about what others are going to think of us. I've already been accused of living in fear, and quite honestly, I don't give a rats behind. I've seen crime, car crashes, etc in my very own neighborhood enough to make we wary of certain things despite what the "numbers" say.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I first wanted to say I am so sorry for everyone who was molested or abused or kidnapped from church - those are very harsh experiences.









I'm a survivor of abuse too, and assault as a young adult. In the first case it was a family member. In the second I was, in fact, not behaving the way one would ideally want one's 19 yr old daughter to behave, which didn't make me responsible exactly but I certainly wasn't following "safe behaviour" to the letter.

Here's the thing though (and I think this is well covered in _Protecting the Gift_ which is a wonderful resource) - I was raised to be fearful of strangers, and that in part was what kept me from telling anyone outside of my family. It also prevented me from getting help at the time of the assault.

It's hard for me to say one thing is the sole source of the other, but I do think that if we teach our children to live in fear, sometimes that fear becomes a barrier to reaching out for help. With my son I will emphasize honing his instincts and seeking appropriate help in whatever circumstances he finds himself in.

The other thing I want to say is controversial but I feel kind of strongly about it so I'm going to risk saying it. And feel free to disagree. But I think that we also have to be careful about giving our children the message that *they are responsible for protecting themselves from molestation.* Because children have a tendency to turn that into blame for themselves. (My mother told me not to talk to bad people... maybe I looked funny... I didn't tell him to stop... I should have known he was bad... this is my fault.)

The horrific truth is that we cannot protect our children at all times from everyone. And it is possible that someone we know, or someone we don't know, will molest our children. If so, the most important thing will be that they tell us, first of all. And second, that they understand that it was not their fault - that no one deserves that and they were not responsible.

And I think for that reason we really need to be careful not to make them think that they are responsible for protecting themselves (at least not under 10 years old).

So - I think it is important to talk about this with our kids and do some roleplaying about it. (What would you do if...). At the same time I think it is very important that we not give them the message that they are more responsible for that than other age-appropriate things.

Kudos to everyone participating in this discussion.







These are hard things with no one true answer, that's for sure.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

I really detest John Stossel and I think it is a huge leap to assume he is even correct in what he was saying.

Quote:

In the country, 58,000 children were kidnapped by people other than their families each year, and 40 percent of them were slain in theend. Another 200,000 children were kidnapped by their family members, mostly for the right of custody.
http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/ce/cegv/eng/...zdh/t85080.htm

Okay, so *258,000* children were kidnapped.

I haven't seen stats of how many children were struck by lightning but I would be pretty surprised if it was more than this. And even it it was, a quarter of a million children kidnapped every year is significant enough to me to teach my daughter how to protect herself.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads* 
I really detest John Stossel and I think it is a huge leap to assume he is even correct in what he was saying.

http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/ce/cegv/eng/...zdh/t85080.htm

Okay, so *258,000* children were kidnapped.

I haven't seen stats of how many children were struck by lightning but I would be pretty surprised if it was more than this. And even it it was, a quarter of a million children kidnapped every year is significant enough to me to teach my daughter how to protect herself.


Thre is no way. No way. Find more stats that back this absurd number.


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads* 
I really detest John Stossel and I think it is a huge leap to assume he is even correct in what he was saying.

http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/ce/cegv/eng/...zdh/t85080.htm

Okay, so *258,000* children were kidnapped.

I haven't seen stats of how many children were struck by lightning but I would be pretty surprised if it was more than this. And even it it was, a quarter of a million children kidnapped every year is significant enough to me to teach my daughter how to protect herself.

You're citing info from PERMANENT MISSION OF THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA TO THE UNITED NATIONS OFFICE AT GENEVA AND OTHER INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS IN SWITZERLAND (caps from their website)? I don't think that'd qualify as an unbiased source, particularly when the don't reference any of the sources of their data.

How about the US Dept of Justice:
http://www.ncjrs.gov/html/ojjdp/nismart/03/ns1.html
where they cite about 58,000 non-family abductions in a study year. I'll state that I'm not claiming this as a well-researched or analyzed number (by me), but it seems more reasonably in the ball park.


----------



## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srain* 
Really, if some jerk grabbed an otherwise healthy kid's crotch for a split second, I really doubt there will be any long-term harm there.

When I was 19, I was alone on a train in Europe, asleep at night in a full section of the train, myself and 5 men. The old grandfatherly looking man across from me pretended to be asleep and he leaned forward and stroked up and down my inner thighs and my crotch (over my jeans). I was in a deep sleep, dreaming that it was happening and having a really tough time waking myself up upon realizing what was happening. I finally woke myself up and knowing that no one else on the train spoke English (I had tried earlier), I decided to kick the man. I tried to muster every bit of strength in my body into my leg and then I kicked his shin as hard as I possibly could without giving him warning. He yelped and pretended I had woke him up. It was loud enough that everyone else woke up. I was shaking and angry and he pretended he had been asleep and didn't know what had happened. The men who could not speak to me, still knew what had happened...you could just tell.

Anyway, I sat awake for the rest of the night, physically shaking and trembling uncontrollably, feeling like I could kill the man. Even though I was 19, an adult effectively, not a child, I was completely hugely affected by this for 4-6 months after that. I was afraid to be alone with any men, even relatives and men I'd known my entire life, and certainly was completely afraid to be alone around strangers. It took me months before I could even tell anyone what had happened. I did recover but I remember the horrible feelings it caused even now (more than 15 years later).

If a simple grab affected me so profoundly, what in the world would it do to a child? I believe it would most probably be devastating and if a child didn't make a big deal of it, then it would be emotionally and silently devastating and very long lasting. Well, at least that's what I think.

I hope I can prevent any such thing from EVER happening to my children.


----------



## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joensally* 
You're citing info from PERMANENT MISSION OF THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA TO THE UNITED NATIONS OFFICE AT GENEVA AND OTHER INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS IN SWITZERLAND (caps from their website)? I don't think that'd qualify as an unbiased source, particularly when the don't reference any of the sources of their data.

How about the US Dept of Justice:
http://www.ncjrs.gov/html/ojjdp/nismart/03/ns1.html
where they cite about 58,000 non-family abductions in a study year. I'll state that I'm not claiming this as a well-researched or analyzed number (by me), but it seems more reasonably in the ball park.

Did you read what you posted? It says 115 *stereotypical' kidnappings a year. The rest of the' kidnappings' could include things like the police being called by a parent claiming a daughter who didn't come home was 'kidnapped' by her boyfriend. And who knows what else...


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
Did you read what you posted? It says 115 *stereotypical' kidnappings a year. The rest of the' kidnappings' could include things like the police being called by a parent claiming a daughter who didn't come home was 'kidnapped' by her boyfriend. And who knows what else...


The other thing I noticed:

"Teenagers were by far the most frequent victims of both stereotypical kidnappings and nonfamily abductions."

I read elsewhere (Can't find the citation this morning) that girls are much more likely to be targets for sexual abuse and kidnappings.

While I don't think anyone should not be vigilent with their kids (especially as accidental injury such as drowning is a leading cause of death in under 5s), what this tells me is that parents of female teenagers need to TEACH their teenagers about the dangers.

Sure, we tell an 8 year old to not talk to strangers. But how helpful or realistic is this for older girls who have more freedom of movement and more complex social schedules?

What about a 13 year old on swimteam? Talking to one of the referrees means she is talking to a stranger. Or a 15 year old who hangs out at the mall with her friends? She is talking to strangers every time she buys something in a store. A 17 year old buying gas at the gas station, paying in cash? She just spoke to a stranger.

I feel this strongly - stranger-danger is not only not helpful, it is actually dangerous. What if your 6 year old gets separated from you at the mall? How on earth is that child going to find help, without talking with someone they don't know? What about all the kids in hurricane katrina who were separated from their parents? I want my kids to be helped by strangers in those situations - and the thing about emergency situations is that you cannot predict them.

A few years back, in Utah, there was a case where a boyscout got lost in the wilderness and while he was finally found, it turned out that for several days he was HIDING from the search and rescue team because HE WAS TOLD TO NOT TALK TO STRANGERS. He could have died because of those instructions - and it is a miracle that he didn't.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in703669.shtml


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joensally* 
You're citing info from PERMANENT MISSION OF THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA TO THE UNITED NATIONS OFFICE AT GENEVA AND OTHER INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS IN SWITZERLAND (caps from their website)? I don't think that'd qualify as an unbiased source, particularly when the don't reference any of the sources of their data.

How about the US Dept of Justice:
http://www.ncjrs.gov/html/ojjdp/nismart/03/ns1.html
where they cite about 58,000 non-family abductions in a study year. I'll state that I'm not claiming this as a well-researched or analyzed number (by me), but it seems more reasonably in the ball park.

Did you read my post?

I wrote exactly what you did (I love quoting myself):

Quote:

In the country, *58,000 children were kidnapped by people other than their families each year*, and 40 percent of them were slain in theend. Another 200,000 children were kidnapped by their family members, mostly for the right of custody.


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## The Lucky One (Oct 31, 2002)

no kidding, i have personally known 2, yes 2, people who have been struck and killed by lightening.

i have never known, even by a great degree of separation, anyone who has been kidnapped.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
Thre is no way. No way. Find more stats that back this absurd number.

Department of Justice anyone?

Quote:

According to the Department of Justice, 58,000 children are abducted by strangers each year, and more than half of them are molested
http://www.ojp.gov/aag/speeches/djdseconf.htm

Quote:

Every year, over 200,000 children are kidnapped by a parent or family member, in most cases by a non-custodial parent. This represents nearly 80 percent of all abductions in the United States and many people do not realize how common this problem is.
http://feinstein.senate.gov/04Releas...ilyabduct.html

Looks like the Chinese government got it right. And why would my original citing from them be considered so unreliable?







:


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads* 
Department of Justice anyone?

http://www.ojp.gov/aag/speeches/djdseconf.htm

http://feinstein.senate.gov/04Releas...ilyabduct.html

Looks like the Chinese government got it right. And why would my original citing from them be considered so unreliable?







:


Those stats do not even match. They are completely different.







:

I'll be happy to have this conversation with you, but you need to read better and do more careful research. The assertion from the China site --that half a million children a year are kidnapped in the US is absurd, and cannot be backed up with facts.

Even when you include parental reporting of teen runaways 'kidnapped' by boyfriends. And even if you add parental abducations.

I'm sorry, do you realize how many half a million children kindapped means? It means you'd never hear of them...where now news and the likes of CNN picks up nearly every substaintiated case of a small child kidnapped by a stranger.


----------



## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Ugh...I have flu head so likely shouldn't be taking it up with better and brighter minds







.

Here, if you look inside the box, are examples of non-stereotypical kidnappings that I think are pretty alarming and contained in the 58k number:
Nonfamily Abduction Examples That Are Not Stereotypical Kidnappings, at
http://www.ncjrs.gov/html/ojjdp/nismart/03/ns3.html.

Yep, the examples cited over the 115 number are certainly not the "I only turned my eyes away from the shopping cart long enough to determine which product was organic and transfat-free, and *poof* she was gone!" variety. I agree with posters about the hysterical age we're living in, in large part thanks to media making the world a whole lot smaller thus making the incidence of crimes etc seem much higher. But I also think that simplifying it all to a juxtaposition of small number stranger abductions compared to lightening strikes is misleading.

The answer has never been stranger danger. The answer, imo, is trust your gut and ask questions, as well as value yourself. In fact, preteens and teens are in many ways more vulnerable than the littles.


----------



## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads* 
Did you read my post?

I wrote exactly what you did (I love quoting myself):

lol Yes, sorry. That sounded snippy, and I didn't mean it to. I was more focusing on the 115 'stereotypical' kidnapping number, Which is too high, but is not half a million.


----------



## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads* 
Looks like the Chinese government got it right. And why would my original citing from them be considered so unreliable?







:

I really, really don't want to derail this thread with this issue







. I wasn't saying you're unreliable, just questioning a document from another country about the country being discussed. The document you quoted is part of a larger human rights battle going on between the US and China - nya nya, you're worse than me....nooo, nya nya, you're worse than ME! I looked at it again, and they do cite their sources imbedded in the text. And, funnily enough, I countered the information with the same information from the original source







: .


----------



## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverSky* 
When I was 19, I was alone on a train in Europe, asleep at night in a full section of the train, myself and 5 men. The old grandfatherly looking man across from me pretended to be asleep and he leaned forward and stroked up and down my inner thighs and my crotch (over my jeans). I was in a deep sleep, dreaming that it was happening and having a really tough time waking myself up upon realizing what was happening. I finally woke myself up and knowing that no one else on the train spoke English (I had tried earlier), I decided to kick the man. I tried to muster every bit of strength in my body into my leg and then I kicked his shin as hard as I possibly could without giving him warning. He yelped and pretended I had woke him up. It was loud enough that everyone else woke up. I was shaking and angry and he pretended he had been asleep and didn't know what had happened. The men who could not speak to me, still knew what had happened...you could just tell.

Anyway, I sat awake for the rest of the night, physically shaking and trembling uncontrollably, feeling like I could kill the man. Even though I was 19, an adult effectively, not a child, I was completely hugely affected by this for 4-6 months after that. I was afraid to be alone with any men, even relatives and men I'd known my entire life, and certainly was completely afraid to be alone around strangers. It took me months before I could even tell anyone what had happened. I did recover but I remember the horrible feelings it caused even now (more than 15 years later).

If a simple grab affected me so profoundly, what in the world would it do to a child? I believe it would most probably be devastating and if a child didn't make a big deal of it, then it would be emotionally and silently devastating and very long lasting. Well, at least that's what I think.

I hope I can prevent any such thing from EVER happening to my children.









I'm sorry that happened to you. What is it with men groping women and girls on trains anyway?







: I have heard several stories like yours. Apparently is is a pretty big issue in Japan. It's a very perplexing phenomenon to me.

Anyway, your story clearly illustrates that sexual victimization, regardless of the supposed severity or duration, has the potential to cause serious emotional distress, quite possibly long term, for the victim. I think that at the core of such distress is not the act itself, but the feelings being victimized creates such as fear, anger, distrust, and shame. For anyone to trivialize the impact certain types of sexual abuse can have on the victim not only does a disservice to the victim, but gives permission to the perpetrator to continue on abusing others.

Even though you still remember the awful feelings the incident caused, I am glad you say that you have recovered. Thank you for sharing your story.


----------



## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joensally* 

The answer has never been stranger danger. The answer, imo, is trust your gut and ask questions, as well as value yourself. In fact, preteens and teens are in many ways more vulnerable than the littles.

Yes. To scare little children to death is not in anyway helpful, and is, in fact, emotionally detrimental. The statistics do not bear out any reason to frighten small children. The odds of being hurt in car accident (even when in a car seat) is much, much greater.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
Those stats do not even match. They are completely different.







:

I'll be happy to have this conversation with you, but you need to read better and do more careful research. The assertion from the China site --that half a million children a year are kidnapped in the US is absurd, and cannot be backed up with facts.

Even when you include parental reporting of teen runaways 'kidnapped' by boyfriends. And even if you add parental abducations.

I'm sorry, do you realize how many half a million children kindapped means? It means you'd never hear of them...where now news and the likes of CNN picks up nearly every substaintiated case of a small child kidnapped by a stranger.


How ironic that you are telling me to "read better" when it appears it is you who are having trouble reading.

Who said half a million children are kidnapped?

I said 58,000 (*fifty-eight thousand*) are kidnapped by non-family members and 200,000 (*two-hundred thousand*) are kidnapped by family members and I *have included citations from the Department of Justice*.

Perhaps you are reading 58,000 as "half a million" but in that case it is you who is mistaken.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

How are they defining kidnapping to arrive at the 58,000 number, though? I read it yesterday, but I believe there was also a statement that 57% of the 58,000 were kept for at least one hour. That means that 43% of the 58,000 weren't kept that long. What sorts of kidnappings are these? Without knowing more details, I really can't use that 58,000 figure as a talking point at all. Someone mentioned the possibility of a boyfriend being reported as "kidnapping" his girlfriend when she doesn't get home on time. I'm not going to say that the number does include things that trivial, but I have to wonder. Out of 58,000, 43% equals almost 25,000 kids who were returned/found within one hour. This seems very unlikely in the case of a real kidnapping...


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
How are they defining kidnapping to arrive at the 58,000 number, though? I read it yesterday, but I believe there was also a statement that 57% of the 58,000 were kept for at least one hour. That means that 43% of the 58,000 weren't kept that long. What sorts of kidnappings are these? Without knowing more details, I really can't use that 58,000 figure as a talking point at all. Someone mentioned the possibility of a boyfriend being reported as "kidnapping" his girlfriend when she doesn't get home on time. I'm not going to say that the number does include things that trivial, but I have to wonder. Out of 58,000, 43% equals almost 25,000 kids who were returned/found within one hour. This seems very unlikely in the case of a real kidnapping...

I didn't see the 57% statistic so I can't comment. Can you find it?

So I ask John Stossel - how many children are struck by lightning each year for him to make his claim? He's the one who thinks that it is ridiculous to educate our children about the possibility of stranger abduction and I think he is irresponsible and hasn't done his research.

And frankly even if more children are struck by lightning than abducted, I still think 58,000 abducted in one year is compelling enough for me to teach my daughter to stay safe.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads* 
I didn't see the 57% statistic so I can't comment. Can you find it?

Here it is.

Quote:

Fifty-seven percent of children abducted by a nonfamily perpetrator were missing from caretakers for at least 1 hour, and police were contacted to help locate 21 percent of the abducted children.
It was in the "Key Findings" section of the US Department of Justice link that was posted here:

http://www.ncjrs.gov/html/ojjdp/nismart/03/ns1.html

Quote:

And frankly even if more children are struck by lightning than abducted, I still think 58,000 abducted in one year is compelling enough for me to teach my daughter to stay safe.
I'm all for teaching my kids to stay safe. But, I'm not interested in making them so scared that they have trouble sleeping at night, for fear someone will come through their window.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RedWine* 
IIf we teach our kids about personal boundaries, and how it's okay to assert themselves to adults who are crossing boundaries (even as innocent as picking up to give a hug), then I think that's most of the battle. No need for fear-mongering.









:


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## Bartock (Feb 2, 2006)

Wow, one time my mom bro and aunt were stiiling outside during a small storm. Mom and aunt in lawn chairs my bro in the middle on the ground sitting on a rubber car mat. Hit my mom, went through to my aunt, the rubber mat must have protected my bro, he was like 3. They luckely were fine. That all I know that's what I was told.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Love Beads---

First off, I will say, crap and mea culpa. I did read it the first time as 580,000. So bad on me. But here is the quote from your sited reference that gave me pause.

-- In the country, 58,000 children were kidnapped by people other than their families each year, and 40 percent of them were slain in theend. --

This is incorrect. Sadly, the stat stat more like 50% of 115. The figure sited is incorrect.

That's site ishorrible piece of writing...and incorrect... numbers are twisted to present something that is not true. So I do ask that you read more carefully, rather than accept at face value this skewed, wrong 'reporting'. One must consider the motivations of this bit of work. It's not just the US government that dabbles in propaganda.

The terrible number most germaine to this disussion is 115. Horror for those it touches, but given there are 40 million children in the US, it seems we are putting our energies in the wrong place.


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## Altair (May 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *airmide_m* 
I was just using NYC subway as a theoretical location, I've never been there so I don't have first hand experience, though my husband did grow up a few blocks from Jamaica Queens and spent the majority of his life in NYC and he's had plenty of good and bad first hand experiences which I hear about constantly...including "There are just SO MANY mentally ill people on the streets that people are much more cautious". And a story about a friend of his who tried to intervene when a woman was getting accosted by a group of people on the subway and in return they said "Oh you wanna be a hero?"...slit her throat ear to ear, stabbed him and left him for dead. But also stories of strangers helping and escorting him back to the right train when he accidentally took the subway too far into a "tough" area as a teenager, how everyone in his neighborhood watched out for each other (especially for the kids), and that people mostly mind their own business but stand up when something is blatantly out of place or wrong, though he's also seen plenty of people walk right on by, and that whole "lack of eye contact, averting the eyes" training can sometimes make it hard to really notice every detail of what's going on around you.

I think first hand experience in NYC might change your mind a little bit here. Those examples aren't really reflective of life here, IMO. Experiences are VERY different though, based on neighborhood, socio-economic status, and what time period someone lived here.

I was just thinking the other day while reading a thread about being scared of a stranger... wow, this is just LIFE every day here. You constantly feel people out and respond based on that. It doesn't scare me at all, I just listen to my intuition and act accordingly. SOMETIMES averting eyes is the best strategy, sometimes direct eye contact is. Sometimes walking away, sometimes appearing disinterested, sometimes talking to the person. You use your intuition to feel out the situation. And you ALWAYS know who is in front of you, behind you, near you, on the other side of the street, etc.

I think kids who are raised here and taught that early have a much easier time trusting their intuition in this way-- you get so much more practice! It just becomes natural to be hyper-aware of your surroundings, without being really stressed about it.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
-- In the country, 58,000 children were kidnapped by people other than their families each year, and 40 percent of them were slain in theend. Another 200,000 children were kidnapped by their family members, mostly for the right of custody.--

This is incorrect. Sadly, the stat is 50% of 115. The figure sited is incorrect.


UU, thanks for the apology, I do appreciate it!

But the figure of 115 is still misleading. 115 is only part of the overall story. Please read the NISMART bulletin where it clearly states:

Quote:

During the study year, there were an estimated 115 stereotypical kidnappings, defined as abductions perpetrated by a stranger or slight acquaintance and involving a *child who was transported 50 or more miles, detained overnight, held for ransom or with the intent to keep the child permanently, or killed*.

Quote:

There were an estimated 58,200 child victims of nonfamily abduction, defined more broadly to include all nonfamily perpetrators (friends and acquaintances as well as strangers) and crimes *involving lesser amounts of forced movement or detention* in addition to the more serious crimes entailed in stereotypical kidnappings.
http://www.ncjrs.gov/html/ojjdp/nismart/03/ns1.html

This information is taken directly from the DOJ. You can also check the Center For Missing and Exploited Children's website. 115 children is a tiny part of the story and very misleading.

But now that I have said the exact same thing 4 different times (with proper citations) I think that I have made my point. Obviously you don't see stranger abduction as something to worry about and I think it's irresponsible for John Stossell to claim that it's no big deal -- especially on the heels of finding Sean Hornbeck. But I do find him to be an arrogant ass so I'm not terribly surprised. In the end we all make decisions about what to teach our children - I hope that when my daughter hears me say that smoking turns your lungs black she will be so afraid of that she will never smoke. And I hope that she won't go off with somebody who says his puppy is lost. FWIW, I also hope she doesn't stand under a tree in a lightning storm as I have taught her that this is a bad idea.


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## airmide_m (May 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Altair* 
I think first hand experience in NYC might change your mind a little bit here. Those examples aren't really reflective of life here, IMO. Experiences are VERY different though, based on neighborhood, socio-economic status, and what time period someone lived here.

Well those are my husband's first hand experiences...are you saying for some reason your experiences are more valid than his? Also I believe my original example was the subway...which goes through many different neighborhoods with varying socio-economic status'.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Altair* 
I was just thinking the other day while reading a thread about being scared of a stranger... wow, this is just LIFE every day here. You constantly feel people out and respond based on that. It doesn't scare me at all, I just listen to my intuition and act accordingly. SOMETIMES averting eyes is the best strategy, sometimes direct eye contact is. Sometimes walking away, sometimes appearing disinterested, sometimes talking to the person. You use your intuition to feel out the situation. And you ALWAYS know who is in front of you, behind you, near you, on the other side of the street, etc.

I think kids who are raised here and taught that early have a much easier time trusting their intuition in this way-- you get so much more practice! It just becomes natural to be hyper-aware of your surroundings, without being really stressed about it.


Doesn't that back up my original point that education and practice is an important part of knowing how to keep yourself (at any age) as safe as possible?

Again I'm not advocating undue emphasis on "stranger danger", or that we rob our children of innocence and terrorize them (or ourselves). I'm simply saying that since there ARE risks, it should be one thing that we help our children learn, and are cautious of to protect them.

(also Yay me, this is the first time I've quoted a post and had it work!







)


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## Altair (May 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *airmide_m* 
Well those are my husband's first hand experiences...are you saying for some reason your experiences are more valid than his? Also I believe my original example was the subway...which goes through many different neighborhoods with varying socio-economic status'.

Didn't mean to imply his weren't valid, just that YOU personally would probably have a very different experience at this moment in time, and in different neighborhoods.

And the subways are very different depending on what borough you are in-- for example, I would ride most subway lines 24 hours a day in lower and midtown manhattan (and have regularly), but I won't ride alone past midnight in the last stops of the outer boroughs (where I live). Subway safety is completely dependent on how many people are in the car. So it IS less safe in the outer boroughs b/c there are simply less eyes. Subway stations are also more or less safe depending on area and how well the police watch that particular area.

Quote:

Doesn't that back up my original point that education and practice is an important part of knowing how to keep yourself (at any age) as safe as possible?

Again I'm not advocating undue emphasis on "stranger danger", or that we rob our children of innocence and terrorize them (or ourselves). I'm simply saying that since there ARE risks, it should be one thing that we help our children learn, and are cautious of to protect them.

(also Yay me, this is the first time I've quoted a post and had it work!







)

Right-- I was arguing with your point that NYC-ish "averting eyes" and all was counter productive. There are many times my intuition tells me NOT to avert my eyes, and many times that's the best thing to do.


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## airmide_m (May 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Altair* 
Didn't mean to imply his weren't valid, just that YOU personally would probably have a very different experience at this moment in time, and in different neighborhoods.
And the subways are very different depending on what borough you are in-- for example, I would ride most subway lines 24 hours a day in lower and midtown Manhattan (and have regularly), but I won't ride alone past midnight in the last stops of the outer boroughs (where I live). Subway safety is completely dependent on how many people are in the car. So it IS less safe in the outer boroughs b/c there are simply less eyes. Subway stations are also more or less safe depending on area and how well the police watch that particular area.

Lol that was my husband's first point when I asked him to read my post and the first couple responses..that of course safety varies greatly by location within the city! But my example was of the subway in general, not excluding the outlying areas.

And you're right about area and time of day...I notice such a drastic difference even here between riding mass transit during commuting hours vs. the middle of the day...in how safe I feel both from being accosted and from catching a cold or anything else communicable.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Altair* 
Right-- I was arguing with your point that NYC-ish "averting eyes" and all was counter productive. There are many times my intuition tells me NOT to avert my eyes, and many times that's the best thing to do.

Yes also true...he was just noting that during those times that someone might feel averting their eyes was the best thing to do, it would decrease the time available to notice and process details of the person's appearance or behavior.


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## Altair (May 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *airmide_m* 

Yes also true...he was just noting that during those times that someone might feel averting their eyes was the best thing to do, it would decrease the time available to notice and process details of the person's appearance or behavior.

But I think it's also a good skill for us and kids to have-- to be able to look away but still *look* kwim?

Just last night I was waiting an hour for a subway that never came. It was about 1:30 AM, in Brooklyn, going against my own "after-midnight" rules.







wait... and i guess that makes it this morning...

the guy sitting next to me on the bench was skeeving me out a little-- when the entire platform is empty and you choose to sit right next to the ONE person there, that's already something to be wary about. I didn't look him in the eye, I didn't stare at him, but I was watching him very carefully. I was half reading my book and half watching him, without looking.

my point is, I think when we look away or avert our eyes from someone that is scaring us, we STILL have to pay extremely close attention to what is going on.


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Altair* 
But I think it's also a good skill for us and kids to have-- to be able to look away but still *look* kwim?

<snip>

my point is, I think when we look away or avert our eyes from someone that is scaring us, we STILL have to pay extremely close attention to what is going on.

I completely agree with you. I believe to this day that this ability saved me from being attacked at 1 am in Seattle by some guy that was just "not right".

I am coming late to this discussion but I want to add that my mom used to use fear to control my actions. She was an ICU nurse when I was born and when she was teaching me to do/not so certain things, she would tell me a horrific story about something that she saw at the hospital. I heard gruesome stories about people struck by lightening, infected with rabies, burned from a candle, suffocated in old refrigerators, etc. To this day I have two deep fears. One is of fire. If I hear a fire alarm go off, I basically have a panic attack, regardless of whether or not there is a fire. -In my old apartment, one of the alarms broke and went off every hour or two. It sent a message to the fire department who sent a fire truck every time. I was such a basket case after the second time that I had to leave despite the fact that I knew there wasn't a fire. Having this amount of fear is counterproductive because I can't really respond appropriately in the situation.

This is a big issue for me and I am hoping, however I screw up as a mom, that I don't pass down the fear.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

I'm also coming late to the discussion. I wanted to add that Lalaland's post got me thinking that very often adults use fear to *control* their kids and not to *protect* them. Like, you take your kid to a playground and you can:
- scare him to "stay within sight" or the bad guy will come and abduct him (so that you can continue to read your magazine or talk on the cell phone uninterrupted)
or
- play with him or at least make a bit of an effort to keep him within sight!

I am sorry you grew up with so much fear, Lalaland ....








The point you're making is very true, being scared is counterproductive in times of danger...


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## graymom (Jun 27, 2005)

It may be true that kids are more likely to be struck by lightning than
abducted by a stranger. however lightning isn't going to rape, sodomise, torture and murder a child.


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

You can teach your children about stranger safety without freaking them out. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. I know people can go overboard, though. It's also worth really considering if the experts' advice is applicable in your situation. Not every 3 year old needs to learn his address and phone number and not every kid is going to need a "codeword".









What to do when separated from mama, though, is a good thing to go over, as I learned the hard way how quickly and easily you can get separated in a store from your child (in the blink of an eye) and how he might think you left the store and he might go outside to the parking lot thinking you were at the car even though you would never, ever leave without him!!!


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## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

I have not taught my 3 yo to stay away from "strangers." I don't even think we've mentioned the word. It's pointless. Kids his age don't understand what a stranger is, anyways. It's my job to protect him and keep him safe, which means I need to keep him close to me at this age. It's not his job to be so fearful that he retreats from every adult.

I think if kids are allowed to interact normally with adults (with me there, of course), and are not taught "unquestioning obedience" they'll know what regular interactions are like, and be more likely to trust their instincts when something seems off-kilter. Scaring kids about talking to strangers doesn't help anything.

Now, I have talked to him about getting "lost." He knows his first and last name, my and dh's first and last names, and the name of our street. (We're working on the address and town). He knows that if he does get lost, he should find a mother with children and ask for help (since wherever we are, there is likely to be a mom with children, and I think that's a safer bet then telling him to look for somebody in a uniform... because that could be anybody.).

We also make it very clear to him that his body is HIS, and he has a right to say no to anything he doesn't like. We don't force hugs. If he says stop tickling, we stop.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

Another vote for Stossel being a biased idiot, regardless of what he's talking about.


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