# Who you gonna call? Sprawl Busters!



## Marg of Arabia (Nov 19, 2001)

http://www.sprawl-busters.com/

Check out this site









Walmart and similar chains are killing our beautiful cities!!!!!

THIS MUST STOP!!!!!









Quote:

The massive invasion of overstuffed retail stores is a hands-on environmental, economic and social issue, which has provoked a widespread citizen response. Retail redundancy, which accelerated in the 1980s, but became grotesque in the 1990s, has created thousands of accidental activists--people who never planned on fighting off a multinational corporation--determined to stop a problem too swollen to hide anymore. We can hear the sound of land being chewed up by the yellow corporate caterpillars. There, squatting on the edge of our community, we can see the problem. We pass it on our way to and from work. This is not the distantly understood destruction of a remote rainforest--this hits where we live. As one woman from Ohio told me: "The first thing we smelled was the burning of trees."


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

ITA that urban sprawl sucks. They should call it suburban sprawl, really. But then I truly dislike the suburbs. However, for many people that is what they want. And sadly, big box stores like WalMart are successful because so many people shop there. We are a strip mall culture. I am never ceased to be amazed at how many people think going to the mall is entertainment, and how full the malls are on a beautiful day. There simply aren't enough people who think that whole lifestyle of stripmalls and drive-to-get-anywhere 'burbs are "it" and that if you don't own a house with a garage and picket fence you just haven't "made it".

Sadly, a whole lot of lifestyle changes are going to be needed to stop this. What ends up happening, too, is that in major cities with hip and cool urban neighbourhoods, the limited space for such areas drives prices way up, and out of the reach of most working class folks. It's one thing to say how yucky the burbs are, but when owning a suburban condo costs $300k or more, those who don't have that kind of cash are forced out into the boonies.


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

"Sprawlmart"







:

I don't want to repeat everything that Piglet said--it's pretty much my opinion too.

I do not and never will understand the mentality that owning a brand-new house in a distant suburb is some kind of status symbol. To me, this lifestyle speaks of people with no imagination and little concern for anyone but themselves. Why not rescue rotting urban cores rather than plow under more farmland to build yet more malls and mcmansions?


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

I just moved 2 hours away from a place I lived my entire life. Guess what?? It's pretty much the same here. The strip malls all look the same, same stores, heck they are even in the same order. The subdivisions are the same, same houses, same parks. It's really sad. Sometimes I will be driving and think that I am home, but I realize that, no, it all just looks the same


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Anyone actually walking the talk?


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

I haven't taken time to read the article but something in your quote was really what's been eating me for awhile, the *redundancy* of this sprawl.

We're in the western suburbs of Philly, one of the fastest metasticising (oh, sorry, growing) regions in the US. We had a stripmall built over a really nasty deteriorating old resort. I was actually glad they used this blighted place instead of raking over virgin farmland or woodland. A Hechengers was one of the anchor stores. Two years later a *Home Depot* was built across the street from the Hechengers!!!!! The Hechengers went bankrupt.

Now they've torn down an old farmhouse and ravaged a large parcel of farmland to put in a Loews within 1/4 mile of the Home Deopt.

Just burns me up.

I think we need to use the residential areas that we already have and build more clusters of smaller but more efficient homes and intentionally leave larger parcels of open land.

Sorry to vent but I see this around here all the time. And, yes, I live it. We're rennovating a Victorian house in town. We are living way below our means and could own one of those McMansions but they're really ugly and heartless, just big with obvious luxuries.

I will stop but feel like going on and on.

Debra Baker


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## Marg of Arabia (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

We are living way below our means and could own one of those McMansions but they're really ugly and heartless, just big with obvious luxuries.
Yes, when we go on trips across this country, I hate the way you can't really tell one city from the next!


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## Cloverlove (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:

I hate the way you can't really tell one city from the next!
Totally! When ds was 4, he even noticed it. We were travelling across country and had been driving for several hours. When we finally stopped he said "weren't we just here?"

Sad, but true.


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## Cloverlove (Jan 2, 2003)

We walk the talk too. We just bought a house in the city. It is within walking distance to practically everything. I think I've gone into a Wal-Mart maybe twice.

We are lucky, though. We are financially able to put our $ where our mouths are. I wonder if we were living closer to the financial edge if buying a house in the city or boycotting Wal-Mart would be possible?

Quote:

big box stores like WalMart are successful because so many people shop there
I think this is only partly true. In many small towns Wal-Mart is the only option due to the company's shady practice of artificially lowering prices to close the local businesses.








Marg- I think we are gonna be almost-neighbors!


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

It's something, isn't it? I live in a small town, so my options are often limited to driving 30 miles away, ordering online or shopping at walmart/kmart.









We live in a 2bd, 1 ba house (soon to be 3bdr, 2ba when dh finishes building the addition, one year in the works so far) that cost my dh $39,000 eight years ago. No McMansion here! :LOL

eta: my dh works for a locally owned contractor's supplier and Lowe's will be coming to our small town soon. Not sure how it will affect his job.







That said, we often shop at Lowe's 30 miles away because the local stores often don't have but one of each thing to "choose" from. What to do?


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

The Home Depot (I assume the same for Loews) has crap. I will go to the local lumber yard and pay more money to get good quality materials for my home.

The thing about walmart is it's low quality crap, too. And if you shop sales the sale price at other better quality places is just as low.

The real point about walmart (and that mentality) is quanity over quality....the person who wants five pair of cheap underpants/vs/the one who wants three pair of good underpants.

I wish I could afford Hannaandersson clothes because they're made by people paid a living wage. I *do* actively look for them at resale shops. I also am trying not to have so many articles of clothing to begin with.

Dittos for the house and sprawl....small two child families in these McMansions....who needs the room? And they're ugly sacrificing quality for quanity (has anyone read the not too big house or a pattern language? Should I even start another related thread?) The heartless of these places families are lost in them not close to one another. Two elements of these tacky places that I have identified is the lack of windows on the sides of these places and the outside chimney that hangs over dead air, the chimney isn't solid, it isn't anchored to the earth as it should be, it looks really bad. I would rather spend money on well made elements of a house and exchange lots of useless space with well-designed space.

DB


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

Quote:

Anyone actually walking the talk?

We live in an old house on the edge of downtown. I can walk to the library, bank, church, farmer's market, and many small shops and restaurants.

I can't honestly say I never venture into sprawl-land--dd's ballet lessons are there, but I try to shop at local businesses when possible.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

good for you!!










I still aren't sure people are defining the burbs these days anyway. I know I could walk to the store if I needed but I do not live in downtown (and I never would here).

To me urban is like NYC where you have all your needs right downstairs from your apt/co-op.


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## Paxetbonum (Jul 16, 2003)

I guess you could say we are "living it." IT has been two years since I have shopped at a Wal-mart. We live out in the country and do have to drive to town to get groceries etc. But we are trying to be more self sufficient. . . we have chickens, garden, cloth diaper, etc.

Our town is currently in the midst of a huge legal mess because we are trying to keep Wal-mart out. They want to build right on the edge of the scenic Shenandoah River, right where a battle was fought in the Civil war. I am sure all the soldiers spilled who spilled their blood will be honored to know people are buying cheep plastic crap on the same land.

RRRR!









Well we are trying to do all we can to keep them and all the "samesville" crowd away but with D.C. so close it is probably only a matter of time.

Thank God for the internet and thrift stores and the few local stores that are fighting the fight here. . . otherwise we'de be homesteaders.


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by DebraBaker_
*And they're ugly sacrificing quality for quanity*
i hear you. we live in a renovated dental factory about 100 years old. no 2x4s in this place, we have eighteen inch(!) thick walls made of enough brick and concrete to stop anything short of a cruise missile. which with the way politics are going in this country might yet come in hand.










it would be impossible for me to actually spend money buying a stick house that won't last as long as the mortgage!

oh, and it's a 1.5 block walk to spouse's place of work.


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## Marg of Arabia (Nov 19, 2001)

Cloverlove, COOL! Let's get together.....PM me!!!!

Yes, we live in the inner city. My kids go to an inner city school. I try to shop at locally owned type of places. I can't stand the sick feeling I get upon walking into Walmart......


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## SoHappy (Nov 19, 2001)

I'm walkin' it. We're not close to being rich, but we make sacrifices to live our ideals. We live in an old house in the "downtown" in a small city. We have enough room to garden. We walk most places and dh rides his bike to work. We just remodeled and of the $85k we spent, at least $80k of it went to local people, local businesses and local government (horrendously high building fees). But there were a few trips to the dreaded I'm-never-freakin'-goin'-there-again-this-place-sucks-so-bad Home Depot (my frugal FIL was helping and he just loves their prices and low quality. Sigh.)

<rant>
I'm very tuned in to our local politics and it is so disheartening. Why are the pro-sprawl politicians getting elected? Because many of them are developers (who call themselves "ranchers" even tho' they're not) and they are getting the big campaign bucks from corporations like the cable company, chain stores, etc who know that more people means more money to be made!

Yipp-freakin-ee!! They're poisoning our air, clogging our streets, wasting our water, but WooHoo, they got some new customers. I'm so sickened. Of course, my in-laws just bought a vacation home in our area. They were so stoked that it's close to the freeway and WalMart, so they can drive their cars needlessly and shop for more chemicals and cheap useless crap. It's the American way, dontcha know?!
</rant>

p.s. Doesn't anybody wanna come camping on the California coast this summer and have these conversations live and in person?


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## isleta (Nov 25, 2002)

I do Sohappy









I am in southern California amis Lowe's and Wal-mart









I do not shop at either and live in a used to be small town that has been "taken over" by developers. We now have two Sav-ons







: We can walk to all our stores, except some resale shops.

I never thought they would develop here so much. Someone the other day told me, "do you own the ocean views? If people want to live here let them come!" Well, I am a little bitter and try to stop it with our local Green Party!

So, I understand and am glad that I am not the *only* one!
I saw another bumper sticker "developers go develop in HELL!!"
People gettin' a little perturbed!


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## MaShroom (Jan 25, 2003)

all hail to the "guru of the anti-walmart movement"!!!









i used to live in a really neat town. now the town has become a city. west of a certain street there is nothing but nothingness, meaning SPRAWL. everything nice, neat and tidy. no character, it isn't allowed and you would be ostracized at the golf club if you deviate from their bland ideals. the houses are the same, the people are the same to a greater or lesser degree but all know to stay well within "The Guidelines."

now the people from the west side sometimes come to the other side of town because it makes them trendy and they like to check out the freaks. they think it is cool to shop at the groovy stores and eat at the quaint little hippie restaurants. they want to fit in buy you can spot them a mile away. they smell like febreeze and deodorant. the real people smell like pits and patchouli.









i say all of this sort of tongue in cheek but it really is true.

anyone remember in the book 'a wrinkle in time' how the kids landed on this planet ruled by 'It'? everything was the same and bad things would happen if you screwed up. we are becoming more and more like that. it is so disturbing. if i thought about it too much i would go quite mad.

as far as living it? hell yeah i do. i couldn't live with myself if i did otherwise. i'm a firm believer in karma. what kind of karma is going to come from supporting walmart and their ilk?


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

I was so depressed yesterday because right by my house, which is in the pine trees of the White Mountains in Arizona, they are CLEARCUTTING and putting up a gated community of nice homes. Right next to there, land is up for sale for commercial development.









Where I live is a bit of a resort community; folks from Phoenix come up here to escape the heat during summer, and ski during the winter; it's gorgeous and there are many outdoorsy things to do- and now it looks like it might turn into just another freaking strip mall filled town. UGH! As of now, the only chain restuarant here (other than fast food) is Dennys. Everything else is independent. The hardware stores were all independent, but we just got a Home Depot back in Nov







. WalMart has been here for over 15years, so I don't know what to say about them.......

The reason we moved here is because it is small and not full of chain stores; it has a unique look and feel. I really hope it doesn't become just like everywhere else. But some people really want it!!! Everyone was so excited about stupid Home Depot.

As much as the chain stores get to me, the mcmansion developers get to me even more. There are plenty of exisiting homes for people to buy; we don't need to clearcut and destroy farmland to build more crappy boxes.

Kristi


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## sadean (Nov 20, 2001)

We are trying to walk it. We own a home in a "recovering" low to moderate income urban neighborhood. I haven't stepped into a Walmart in probably 5 years (and hated that one time I did), but I do occasionally shop at Target and Payless Shoes. I go to the mall about 2 times a year and am so frazzled after an hour that I have to leave. We eat out a lot, and about half the time it is locally owned restarants and half the time it is your standard chain (Applebees is a favorite with the 8 yo







: ). I buy organic foods through my co-op buying club, but also go to the chain grocery store about once a month (though the chain orginates here, so it could be argued that I am still shopping local...o.k., so I am fooling myself, I admit it







) I work in non-profit (community development) but for a large somewhat faceless corporation, dh works for a small locally owned collectables business that caters to the Pokemon/Yu Gi Oh/Comic book collector/bored suburban kids crowds.

Life is so complicated...


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

We're trying to walk the talk.

After the Exxon Valdeez spill, I didn't drive a car for two years. I walked or took the bus or carpooled to everything- including groceries, dentist, doctor, work, haircuts... and lived in the suburbs not the city so the grocery was a mile away and I biked or walked for our groceries. The bus stop was between a half mile and a mile walk, depending on the route.

Then we moved, buying on house on 3 buslines. The buslines were cancelled within a few years, including the one to dhs work! So he got in a carpool and stayed in that for 10 years and we bought a Geo metro, which got 54 mpg city and I drove that.

Now we have a Prius, 50 mpg since dhs carpool melted down after 10 years.

We never shopped Walmart. We buy at a local independent grocery or a coop farther away. we can walk to QFC if we need to, but have to cross busy road.

Still- we are in the suburbs. It's close to dhs work and affordable. We have an older house in an established close-in suburb. This was once sprawl. now its nothing compared to what is out in the "country."


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

wow I didn't realize this thread was mostly about Walmart (which I hate btw, and can't remember the last time I was there).

I thought it was about the evils of suburbia?


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

they go hand in hand: box stores need suburbs.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

How is that??? That they go together I mean??

I see just as many Walmarts and Kmarts ect in urban L A than I do in the suburban areas.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Walmarts are everywhere- I don't shop them anywhere but dh's relatives seek them out! They are familiar and comforting to many people, I think.

On suburbia- I simply can't live in a city- I grew up on a farm and need trees and feel clausterphobic with buildings close in. But the suburbs are pretty bad. I try to live an ethical life here and minimize the potential evils of the lifestyle.

I think even worse is building a new house out in the country. At least here, we're moving in to a place where there have been houses for 45 years. There I am, justifying it.


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Arduinna_
*I see just as many Walmarts and Kmarts ect in urban L A than I do in the suburban areas.*
LA is a giant suburb. a non-suburb is something like Manhattan, the inner arrondisments of Paris, Hong Kong, etc. not too many Walmarts in places like that, mostly because it's prohibitively expensive to put all that parking in place.

even in a sprawly city like LA you don't tend to find a walmart in the core...

http://www.walmart.com/cservice/ca_s...tinue=Continue

in NYC it's even "worse"...

http://www.walmart.com/cservice/ca_s...tinue=Continue


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

Walmarts and other stores like it are designed for a car-dependent society, as are suburbs. It's unusual for suburban dwellers to be able to walk or bike to work or anywhere else, for that matter. Some suburbs have walking trails, which are nice for weekend rambles, perhaps, but pretty useless when you just want to pick up a loaf of bread without firing up the SUV. Suburban design, with it's go-nowhere cul-de-sacs and busy thoroughfares, is hostile to pedestrians. Even if you can walk, there's nowhere to walk to. Wal-mart discourages shoppers who are pedestrians--it's always built way back from the street and it's necessary to traverse a huge parking lot just to get to the door. You can't just pop in off the street into a Wal-mart. And, at least from what I've seen, the urban areas that have big box stores tend to have a down-at-the-heels suburban feel to them.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

how many people here live in hong kong or paris?? maybe a handful. which is partly why I brought up walking the talk. We don't have that many cities in the US anyway that aren't car dependant.

so it's all great to talk about the evil of the suburbs but they are here and they aren't going anywhere even if we all boycott walmart. In fact they were here before Walmart ever existed. It's so weird because I never saw a Walmart in L A until maybe the last 10 years. There are tons and tons of small business owners.

anyway I'll bow out now I obviously don't get the point of this thread other than patting yourselves on the back for how everyone agrees how evil the suburbs are.


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## MaShroom (Jan 25, 2003)

i think the point is that we should do all we can to stop it.

where i live they are developing like crazy. the population has almost doubled in the last 5 years. the push for more suburban housing and chain stores is overwhelming from the new members of the community. those of us who have been here for a while are fighting like dogs to just keep it liveable and stop, or at least slow, the sprawl. a few years ago when this all started i don't think anyone was particularly opposed to "progress" but this more like cancer than progress.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I know I know I said I'd leave. But if we stop construction where are all the people going to live?? We don't have zero population growth. Our kids have to live somewhere, just as we do. Ya know if we weren't born then they wouldn't have had to build more housing for us.

So if we really want to stop urban sprawl, construction ect we all should just stop having kids. More people = more housing and more resources used up.


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## MaShroom (Jan 25, 2003)

i have a problem with building new neighborhoods when there are so many that could be renovated at a lower cost, economically and environmentally. fortunately, there is a move toward this thinking where i live.

i also have a problem with the people who have to have new, new, new and god forbid they ever recycle, reuse or anything so distasteful. i know people like this though i don't associate with them anymore - not sure why i did in the first place.







:

there is this one family that stands out in my mind when i talk about stuff like this. they own 3 suv's, everything that they have must be brand spankin' new - NO used anything!!! they live in a huge house that they are never home to enjoy. they have 3 kids they never see. they have a superiority complex till who laid the chunk and you can't be a part of their exclusive little group unless you're like them. drones. but hey, they make the economy go round. they also make me sick.


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## SoHappy (Nov 19, 2001)

Stopping sprawl doesn't mean stopping construction. It means planning communities around available resources and using techniques like infill, regeneration and smart communities.

In my town some of the last remaining prime agricultural land is going to be turned into a Lowe's, Target and Macy's. The city's hands are tied -- the property owners say if the permits are denied they will get it passed by the county. So the city lets them do it so that at least they can control how it's done. Do we need this shopping center? No. There's one adjacent, and a brand new Home Depot half a mile away. I've lived here since 1965 and never had a problem finding things I need. Suddenly we need two giant home centers when we survived fine without any since this town was established in the 1700s? I'm telling you, the missions these towns were built around are gorgeous and nobody minds that they didn't get a discount on Pergo.


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## MaShroom (Jan 25, 2003)

thank you for that explanation sohappy. i would have liked to have said that but i'm not too articulate after 10p.m. :LOL

sprawl seems to be about people telling us what we should want rather than us getting by on what we need. just my observation.


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Yes, people need places to live. But, why does it have to be a new house? And, if it must be new, why can't it be a responsibly planned out and built house?

And with the stores, why must there be a Target, WalMart, and Kmart on the same block? Not necessary!!! They are taking up open space to sell more junk. Why not just one?

Kristi


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

The thing that bothers me also is how these stores sell all this junk (Target, walmart etc.)-- I remember as a kid in the 60s in 70s going into town to a small grocery with creaking wood floors to get staples and then to a butcher shop. It was an enjoyable experience- the shopkeepers knew us.

There was also a little hardware store that had a few plastic animals and toy kid's brooms- and these things were PRECIOUS- not to be tossed. If they broke- you taped the leg back on.

Now it's MORE MORE MORE-- it makes me sick to go into these places- the plastic/chemical smell- the overabundance of unnecessary stuff.

It's not making quality for our lives.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Arduinna, I also agree that people need a place to live. The unplanned growth with no mass transit or pedestrian routes to local stores bothers me. It seems a piece of wilderness is randomly hacked out and a development put there. Then a a Walmart or Target/grocery mall you can only get to by driving moves in.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

I agree that is the way things are built. There are towns and urban areas that are becoming depopulated and farmland and woodland is developed. I understand people want their children to grow up in a nice area and go to good schools. I wouldn't live in a community with a poor school district but I did move into a little town that is recovering from the blight of the mall but in a good school district.

As I mentioned above this region is being way too overdeveloped too quickly (the county is trying to do something about it with open space funds, etc. but it's still pretty bad) There are, however, some examples of good development. Two examples, here in town we had a blighted factory that was abandoned by its owner. Finally, the community was able to do the excavation and demo of the factory site in order to sell the land. The land was developed into a townhouse community. It wasn't perfect but where there was the ugly blight of an abandoned factory building there is now a townhouse community. All the homes sold quickly (they sold in the $200,000 and some have re-sold in the $200,000's) There is another community that has developed smaller homes with a lot of archetectural interest (in contrast with the typical mcmansion) and they are clustered together resembling an old fashioned town. (The garages are in back alleyways so the facade' of the house has a portch as a focal point instead of the looming garage) There is a lot of planned open space. They incorporated industrial parks, shopping centers, and YMCA's and resteraunts within walking distance. They also have senior apartents (My MIL lives in one) These have been very succesful because the homes have heart. They are pretty dang expensive, however, and are run by homeowners' associations that are, well, little nazis (you need permission to plant flowers that aren't on their approved list, for example, and you are not allowed to park your car in front of your home, it must be out back (I kid you not) etc. etc. etc. We joke that the old Stazi of East Germany now run these homeowners associations. I see the other extreme and can only say balance is a good thing)

There are examples of how people can develop a region without settling for suburban sprawl and endless walmarts (I hate walmart and won't shop there)


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

There is a movement afoot to build mixed-use developments in which houses and businesses are mingled on small lots--more like a traditional small town than your typical suburb that requires that you drive everywhere. If I *had* to have a new house, this is the type of community I would chose.


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## Paxetbonum (Jul 16, 2003)

I agree that alot of the problem with the sprawl is that Americans demand convenience and familiarity. If we were willing to wait until thru the weekend for some items and give the local restaurants monday off, etc, there really would be less sprawl.

But Americans want spanking new stuff, when THEY want it.

Now conrast this to Italy, where my relatives live. They don't CARE that the stores are closed every day between twelve and three because they'de rather be at home eating food from their garden and drinking wine they made themselves than shopping all the time.

The point is that we have to make Americans care more about permanency, quality, and the value of communities and traditions to stop the sprawl.

I also find it so ironic that it is mostly the old folks who like Wal-mart. They are the ones that grew up with the great "mom and pop" stores but they just think that Wal-Mart is the best thing since sliced bread. Heck they even go get greeter jobs there!!!

It seems to me that there are lots of twenty-somethings in my generation that are just fed up with this because we grew up going to Wal-Mart, watching our plastic toys break time after time and feeling disconnected from our homes and cities.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Paxetbonum_
*w conrast this to Italy, where my relatives live. They don't CARE that the stores are closed every day between twelve and three because they'de rather be at home eating food from their garden and drinking wine they made themselves than shopping all the time.*
Ahhh, now THAT is the life!









In answer to Arduinna's point about population growth...

the sad truth is that urban planners and designers have LONG had the ability to design communities to be pedestrian friendly and not dependent on cars, and you don't even have to be "in the city" to do this. yes, people need new communities, but let's plan them a little more responsibly. let's get rid of this false ideal that you are nobody unless you own a 2000 sq foot home with a double garage and a lawn that wastes valuable water resources and pollutes the ground water with pesticides. Wonderful "urban style" communities can be and have been built. But it's place like the WalMarts of the world that basically promote suburban sprawl and the toll it takes on the environment.

and yes, I do "walk the walk". I wouldn't live in a house if you paid me - I don't need all that space to accumulate clutter and spend my weekends cleaning. Give me a small loft apartment anyday where I can walk to work, the park, and the grocery store. Oh wait, I'm living in one right now!


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Arduinna wrote:

Quote:

But if we stop construction where are all the people going to live?? We don't have zero population growth.
In metro Pittsburgh we have NEGATIVE population growth, yet new McMansion developments are being built all the time!







Obviously population growth isn't the only thing that drives development.

Over the past few years, an enormous brownfield that had been the site of two steelmills has been turned into a huge shopping center w/some office and apt. buildings too. I had hoped it would be better--most of the stores and restaurants are national chains and appear to have built their standard building without even thinking of taking advantage of the river view, and much of the place is huge parking lots--but at least pedestrian crosswalks are part of the design, several bus routes stop there, and city residents who do patronize those chain stores (I like to shop at Marshall's for discounted clothes, for example) can use less fuel to get there and have their tax dollars go to a town recovering from the loss of the steel industry instead of to a mall-and-strip oriented suburb.

We own a smallish rowhouse. Our street is one block long and has 62 dwelling units. If you walk around our block, in addition to housing you will find a laser eye surgery clinic, a gift shop, a synagogue, chair- and lamp-repair businesses, an electrician, a hair salon, a coffeehouse, a gas station, Korean and Russian groceries, a real-estate agency, a massage studio, a mystery business that always seems to be closed







, an automotive garage, a dog groomer, and







A PAY PHONE!!! In the suburban neighborhood where I grew up, the same portion of land would hold about 6 houses.







: To me, the choice is obvious!

I think the way to bust sprawl is to talk up the advantages of dense urban life, talk up the joys of small local businesses, increase gas taxes, and provide subsidies only for development of existing sites.


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by EnviroBecca_
*
We own a smallish rowhouse. Our street is one block long and has 62 dwelling units. If you walk around our block, in addition to housing you will find a <snip...long list of ammenities...*
what you described is that great rarity in america - a traditional neighborhood. for some reason americans (on aggregate) would rather have mcmansions and walmarts than neighborhoods.


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

The small town where I live doesn't quite have true neighborhoods, it is designed well. There are two main "drags" and that is where all the businesses are, as well as police, fire station, police station, city aquatic center, etc. , some businesses are on side streets, but all are within walking distance from the main street. We have a public transit system that actually stops in residential areas, and travels along the two main streets; you can get anywhere easily by taking the bus. If you live "in town" you can pretty much walk everywhere. We live about two miles from "town", and if I wanted to I can walk to most places. Our town was built in the 1880's. Sadly, new towns aren't built this way- with community in mind.

Kristi


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Kristi, I used to dream of living in a town like that. It never happened- and my life took me towards a larger city and jobs.

The problem is those places are so rare and hard to find- I can't believe people really prefer McMansions and Walmarts- but someone must. Or are we just swallowing what we're fed?


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by monnie_
*Or are we just swallowing what we're fed?*








I think that's it! Why else would people eat food sprayed with chemicals and slather petroleum products on their newborn babies?

It's PROGRESS, isn't it?


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## barbara (Feb 13, 2002)

I live in a small lakeside community. Most of the homes were built in the 20's and 30's or in the 60's. We have lived here 25 years and I use to be able to walk to the grocery that was locally owned and run. We did buisness with the mechanic that owned the gas station, and on occasion ordered pizza from the mom and pop resturant down the street, where they would always ask about our children by name. The houses on our street backed up to woods where deer and other wildlife florished. The parks were surrounded by wetlands where Canadian Geese stopped off to raise there young before continuing their migration each spring.

Things have changed, the wetlands are being developed into parkinglots for walmart, car dealerships and housing developments. The mom and pop grocery, gas station and resturants have been run out of buisness as the chain stores have come in. The beautiful woods behind our house has been "harvested," fenced, blacktopped, and rows of storage units have been built so all the new suburbanites will have a place to store their boats and "extra" stuff that won't fit in their 2000 sq ft home or their 2/3 car garage!

We are just swallowing what we're fed, because most of "us" can't remember a different way of life, and the media has trivialized, deamonized, and ridiculed that simpler way of life to the point that young families don't even find it attractive anymore.

Now I remember why I have stayed away from activism for so long....it just makes me so







Not you Ladies, just the subject matter.


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Barbara, you just described the place we lived in Illiinois, we lived on Fox Lake and what you are describing was happening there. So sad. There was activism to stop the growth, but no one listened.

Kristi


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## barbara (Feb 13, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by grisandole_
*Barbara, you just described the place we lived in Illiinois, we lived on Fox Lake and what you are describing was happening there. So sad. There was activism to stop the growth, but no one listened.*
Same here! We have been fighting it for years and told that the city has to grow with the times! ugh! the farms are being forced out because they can't afford the higher taxes that have come with city growth!


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

I am absolutely sick about the development that I saw in the area I grew up when i went back 10 years ago. I haven't been back since, so I'm sure it is worse.

My parents sold their farm- a beautiful farm I grew up on with a pond, woods, rolling hills overlooking a lake- to a conservation group and I know that land is safe and protected. Most of the farmers in the area "had" to sell out to developments.

In a way I understand the dilemma- the taxes are high, there are no children who want to farm the land- the farmers get old- and the land is worth money and they need the money.

This is a terrible set up for our culture.


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## BohoMama (Jun 26, 2003)

Some walkin', some talkin'

We live in a 300-year old farmouse in a village with 24 permanent inhabitants. We buy organic free-range eggs from our neighbor, pick mushrooms berries and herbs in the forest, grow a few of our own veggies and have orchards that keep us rolling in fruit, jam and brandies all year.

On the other hand, we still have a city apartment that we spend about 2 days a week in (complicated legal situation, can't explain here) and we drive a car. DH needs it to get to work in the city, I need to it for my research and we both use it to go shopping - the next village is 8 km away and they hardly have anything in their mini grocery shop. I will admit that we sometimes shop in big box stores. However, we buy everything possible that is organic and support small health-food shops in Prague and in Dobris, the closest large town. In Prague we get around by public transport, which besides being cheap is much quicker and more convenient than using a car.

We heat our house with wood, which is locally abundant and renewable. Next year, our friend said we can take fallen or about-to-fall trees from his forests for free. When we get some money saved, we will invest in a heat pump (I think that's what they call these things in English), which will keep our house at a constant temp all year by using the natural temperature differences between ground and air or water and air.

Sprawl, "satellite cities" for the nouveaux riche, and Big Box Hypermarkets are all issues in this country, but we are far enough from the capital that it should be a good long while before they reach us. So far the "debate" about these things seems to be limited to elite intellectuals and urban planners. Most of the rest of the people just think they are part of the capitalist life style they longed for for so many years.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

I thought European communities were more enlightned.

I have similar memories of more local people friendly community.

We still have a bit of this here in spite of ourselves. We have an abandoned Turkey Hill (minimart) that a family business bought and turned into an old fashioned pizzeria and Italian eatery. It has tables for diners but is mostly take out. We give them business and they have been around for almost a year now, I'm hopeful they will succeed. They know our family.

This thread is giving me achey nostalgic feelings.

Debra Baker


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

i don't know what the answer is. my canadian hometown was very lucky in that they could never figure out how put a highway through the city. as a consequence, urban flight became impossible and people worked on improving their 'hoods instead of running from them. to me it is one of the most livable decent-sized cities on the planet and a place i'm proud to call "home".

there is a school of urban planning that argues we should stop building roads, basically, and i have to say it makes a lot of sense. no freeway ever alleviated traffic, traffic always grows to fill the availabe roadway. so...why not just stop building roads and let remote places stay remote while inhabited places build up the critical mass for neighborhoods and transit and etc?


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## BohoMama (Jun 26, 2003)

Europeans as more "enlightened"? I see the people here as having different kinds of entrenched interests and different habits of thinking and behaving....

...Communism did a real job on people, on the land, and on people's relationship to the land. When people have long gotten something for free, such as garbage disposal, they don't like having to suddenly pay for it. Thus, they dump trash, inc. big things like sofas and refrigerators in the woods, along the road sides, and burn small things like plastic soda bottles and chips wrappers in their stoves, which puts dioxins into the air, soil and water. There used to be very little attempt at regulating domestic wastewater. Now there are laws that you have to have a cesspool where sewers are unavailable, and you have to pay to have your sewage hauled away. The way around that is cutting a hole into the cesspool before it's installed. There is a new law that pubs have to be outfitted with smoke filters. There is not law saying this filter has to be turned on, though.

Only a few years ago they made a law giving pedestrians absolute right of way in the crosswalks. The result? 300% more pedestrian deaths IN THE CROSSWALKS! The pedestrians got uppity and lost the game of "chicken" with the drivers, probably many of whom were under the influence of alcohol or talking on their mobile phones.

I guess this rant is getting off topic from the SPRAWL theme, but the point is that it wouldn't be accurate to judge Europeans as more civilized or enlightened than Americans on the basis of a few things that a handful of intellectuals write and send over to the U.S. It gets back to the question of talkin' versus walkin'.

Factoid of the day: McDonald's is experiencing its greatest rate of expansion in France, the country that appears to make the most noise against fast food. Who is eating all those burgers?


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by BohoMama_
*Who is eating all those burgers?*
a better question is how did the french manage to hold out for so long? mcdonalds is growing fast there because there isn't anywhere else on the planet to grow, lol.


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## barbara (Feb 13, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by dado_
*a better question is how did the french manage to hold out for so long? mcdonalds is growing fast there because there isn't anywhere else on the planet to grow, lol.*
And no doubt Walmart is right behind.


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## BohoMama (Jun 26, 2003)

OK, so if we take dado's premise that the French "held out" for some time against Ronald McD & co., but are now succumbing or getting bought out, who else is out there that we can still cheer for?

Does anybody know of a culture that is thoughtfully and deliberately resisting the excesses of Western-based consumer culture? By "culture," I mean fairly large-scale. Not just the hippie enclave up the road.


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