# disgusting behaviors and GD



## swellmomma (Jan 1, 2004)

I have been reading lots of the books on GD that had been recommended but none of them address a situation I have here in my home. My oldest son has issues with waste materials to put it mildly. for 4 years it was fecal smearing, since then for the last 5 years it has been him urinating in various containers in the house, on the floor, once because he was mad at me he stood in my bedroom doorway and urinated all over my room including ont eh basket of baby clothes i had just washed and on the baby's crib. Yesterday I went up to fill the tub for baths to find that instead of sitting ont eh toilet to poop he had done do in the middle of the floor and left it there. He is 9 years old so this is not a small child who doesn't know better. I make him clean it up, but serious after 9 years of this nonsense I am fed up. It is disgusting and filthy. I honestly do not see a GD way to deal with it and am at my breaking point dealing with it. BEtween my 4 yr old still having accidents due to ecoporesis and having a ababy in the house I get morethan my share of waste "management" I am so tired of him doing this. any solutions other than spanking him and putting him back in diapers?


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## TonyaW (Dec 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swellmomma* 
I have been reading lots of the books on GD that had been recommended but none of them address a situation I have here in my home. My oldest son has issues with waste materials to put it mildly. for 4 years it was fecal smearing, since then for the last 5 years it has been him urinating in various containers in the house, on the floor, once because he was mad at me he stood in my bedroom doorway and urinated all over my room including ont eh basket of baby clothes i had just washed and on the baby's crib. Yesterday I went up to fill the tub for baths to find that instead of sitting ont eh toilet to poop he had done do in the middle of the floor and left it there. He is 9 years old so this is not a small child who doesn't know better. I make him clean it up, but serious after 9 years of this nonsense I am fed up. It is disgusting and filthy. I honestly do not see a GD way to deal with it and am at my breaking point dealing with it. BEtween my 4 yr old still having accidents due to ecoporesis and having a ababy in the house I get morethan my share of waste "management" I am so tired of him doing this. any solutions other than spanking him and putting him back in diapers?

This sounds like more than a discipline issue at this age. I would try to figure out why he is doing it and get to the root of the issue.


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## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

psychological counseling?


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## swellmomma (Jan 1, 2004)

he has been in psych counselling for years, is medicated, but the dr's haven't been able to suggest anything to help other than saying I need to be more strict in my discipline of it, to "teach" him not to do it. It isn't working and I am so tired of living in a giant freaking toilet with the way he treats our home. (he does a ton more to disrespect the home but this is the worst)


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Oh Mama, I don't have much advice really but had to post my support. This must be incredibly difficult to deal with.









The only advice I can give is to address the root cause of the behavior. It seems this is a power issue, but not knowing you or your DS I would not know for sure. Using it as a revenge tactic for his anger suggests that he's feeling powerless and he knows this is a way he can feel powerful albeit not an appropriate one.

Is he having issues elsewhere? Is there something/s in his life that are causing him anxiety that could be helped with some special alone playtime with you or with another close adult he can play freely with and perhaps confide in? I can see you have your hands full, lots of loving kiddos! I do imagine getting special time with each is a challenge.

What I know (and it sounds simplistic to say) but to quote Mary Sheedy: "When kids aren't acting right, they aren't feeling right" and the only way to truly correct the problem is to dig at the root issue and work on that. To spank, to put him back in diapers these are the punishments that shame, humiliate and perpetuate anxiety and therefore the behavior.

Perhaps someone else with some more specific experience with this will post some more concrete info/advice. We went through a short time when DS was 5 or so and he was peeing in corners of the house. He would do it when he was angry and also I think, because he could... a power thing. I looked for ways to connect with him and empower him in other areas of our life and also kept a very close eye on him and lead him to the bathroom when I saw him starting up. The behavior did eventually cease, but the living room carpet was toast.









Hang in there, mama. I know this can't be an easy thing to deal with on so many levels. Lots of support to you.

Em


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## LotusBirthMama (Jun 25, 2005)

i feel your pain, mama. ds1 went through a pooping everywhere but the toilet phase when he was 7. it was the single hardest thing i have ever dealt with, i kid you not. it would fill me with rage and saddness and every other unpleasant emotion...

i wish i could tell you to do xyz and it would get better, but i can't. i'm ashamed to say we sent him to go live with his biological mom for the summer b/c we were so thoroughly unable to handle it anymore. we never told him that was why he was going...

he came back a few weeks later and announced one day "ya know, i'm done pooping all over. i'm too old for it." and never did it again.

i still don't know what happened to make him stop, i'm just glad he did.


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## swellmomma (Jan 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LotusBirthMama* 
i feel your pain, mama. ds1 went through a pooping everywhere but the toilet phase when he was 7. it was the single hardest thing i have ever dealt with, i kid you not. it would fill me with rage and saddness and every other unpleasant emotion...

i wish i could tell you to do xyz and it would get better, but i can't. i'm ashamed to say we sent him to go live with his biological mom for the summer b/c we were so thoroughly unable to handle it anymore. we never told him that was why he was going...

he came back a few weeks later and announced one day "ya know, i'm done pooping all over. i'm too old for it." and never did it again.

i still don't know what happened to make him stop, i'm just glad he did.










I am glad to hear I am not the only one that has those feelings, I was beginning to feel like a horrid mother. I have debated about sending him away, though in our case it would have to be foster care and I do NOT want to do that, but I feel like he can not live here with his behaviours and it is not safe or sanitary for the others. I have said some pretty horrible things the last few days to him about it all, I hit my breaking point dealing with it. Like I said this is not the only issue but it is one that sends me over the edge every time. This summer he wil be gone for 2 weeks though not all at once, and I am so excited to have the break from him and then that makes me feel so guilty. I am sure part of it is power struggle, but it's not jsut that, this started at age 6 months and I have been dealing with it ever since. replacing carpets(in rentals) and furniture repeatedly over the years. My bf and i have been talking about moving in together this summer but there is no way that can happen as long as my son continues with this. Knowing how I feel when he does it an I love him so much I can't see anyone else trying to even find a solution kwim.


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## jldumm (Sep 6, 2006)

so, I read your post and felt for you, but didn't reply. I took my litttle one for a walk and could not stop thinking about your situation. lots of things occurred to me and i hope i can be succinct and clear.

i hope you have some support. i would begin by getting some support for yourself. This does not seem to be a discipline issue. That would concern me if the MD that is treating him syas this to you. I would start to look for a md that understands what is going on.

oh disclaimer this is me speaking as on occupational therapist that specializes in pediatrics... not as a mom. I have worked with lots of kids with various titles as their diagnosis, and what is going on psychologically makes a big differnce in how you discipline and parent.

I have worked with behavioral therapist who have done wonders with bipolar, oppositional defiant disorders, and the like. IF you start asking around for someone who is great with kids, you may be able to find someone you like and that can help. With any professional you want to make sure that they are able to connect with your son, help you understand what is going on with your son, and work with you guys as a family to modify behaviors. Because sometimes you can extinguish a behavior only to have it replaced by a more unsavory one....

so that wasn't really an answer only more questions and more searching..
one more thought have you tried ingoring it. Just clean it, go about your day and say absolutely nothing about it. If you can youare a very strong woman and i would applaud you, but you may try it and see what it gets you.

good luck


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## doubledutch (Oct 23, 2007)

i couldn't disagree more with your doctor's advice (or your son's doctor's advice i suppose). trying to stop the poop/pee stuff with stricter discipline is treating the symptom. some part of him needs emotional healing, not a punishment. are you happy with his counsellor/psychiatrist/psychologist whomever it is, in other respects? if they aren't able to address the underlying cause, i would ask for a referral to someone who can.


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## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

If your psychotherapist is suggesting that the answer is to increase the discipline, I would find a new therapist post haste. This sounds like a psychological issue, whether it's born of anger, defiance, fear, it definitely sounds like something that can be addressed with a GOOD therapist and not one that tells you to discipline it out of him.

In general, kids who manifest these sort of behaviors do so because they may feel out of control of their lives, and this is something they can control and use to feel that they can be in charge of something in their lives. Like a power struggle. A few things stand out to me - talking about your BF moving in, having a new baby, etc. I know you said that it's been happening a while, but there could be ongoing issues that are sparked by changes like that and that's his only coping mechanism.

I honestly cannot tell you how quickly I'd ditch the old therapist and find a new one.


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## Xoe (Oct 28, 2007)

You aren't alone, so definitely try to connect with other mom's who are going throught t_he exact same thing_. A different website will probably yield more help. I found that when my DD was going through the worst of failure-to-thrive, it was hard to find good advice in the more heavily trafficked boards on MDC. If people haven't gone through these problems with their children, personally, they could offer ideas but rarely solutions. I had to find groups of moms who actually had FTT infants and children. (Eventually, I found a thread on MDC with similar moms.) I think you really need to do the same so that you can hear what moms have done to bring their children through this behavior. There must be some conclusion to most of it, as we rarely encounter adults who smear feces on things. But only the moms of these adults know how the whole problem was resolved.

My best wishes to you. I really feel for you.

xoe


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

I agree with previous posters who suggest that this behavior might be more complex and require more professional intervention than can be addressed with gentle discipline. An OT consult sounds like an excellent idea, as does seeking out another psychologist.

To me, this behavior sounds more like a symptom of mental illness - perhaps he is struggling for areas in which he has more control - not necessarily control over his environment, but control over himself and his own mind. Maybe he feels that he just can't control any other behavior except where he poops/pees. Maybe its an internal struggle that he is experiencing, and not a fight for more control over his environment. He might be fighting for more control over himself.

Or maybe it is more sensory, since he used to smear. Maybe to him there is something highly attractive to peeing/pooping in unique places, much more attractive than avoiding punishment or complying with requests. It might be hard to compete with the attractiveness of that sensation for him and, again, an OT might be able to help find things that meet that need for him.

One thing that most "experts" agree on in treating this type of behavior (functional encopresis) is that exerting *more* parental control over the behavior *increases* the behavior, and that treating the underlying issues has the best chance of reducing the behavior. So I think you are definitely right to question the advice to use punishment. Your instincts are great.

"The psychiatric (DSM-IV) diagnostic criteria for encopresis are:

Repeated passage of feces into inappropriate places (e.g., clothing or floor) whether voluntary or unintentional
At least one such event a month for at least 3 months
Chronological age of at least 4 years (or equivalent developmental level)
The behavior is not exclusively due to a physiological effect of a substance (e.g., laxatives) or a general medical condition, except through a mechanism involving constipation.
The DSM-IV recognizes two subtypes: with constipation and overflow incontinence, and without constipation and overflow incontinence. In the subtype with constipation, the feces are usually poorly formed and leakage is continuous, and occurs both during sleep and waking hours. In the type without constipation, the feces are usually well-formed, soiling is intermittent, and feces are usually deposited in a prominent location. This form may be associated with oppositional defiant disorder or conduct disorder, or may be the consequence of large anal insertions."

Here's a link to a thread from a mom with an older child with (what sounds like) more severe but similar issues. Do you see any of the other symptoms this child has in your child? http://www.mothering.com/discussions...light=bathroom


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## DaughterOfKali (Jul 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *daniedb* 
If your psychotherapist is suggesting that the answer is to increase the discipline, I would find a new therapist post haste. This sounds like a psychological issue, whether it's born of anger, defiance, fear, it definitely sounds like something that can be addressed with a GOOD therapist and not one that tells you to discipline it out of him.

In general, kids who manifest these sort of behaviors do so because they may feel out of control of their lives, and this is something they can control and use to feel that they can be in charge of something in their lives. Like a power struggle. A few things stand out to me - talking about your BF moving in, having a new baby, etc. I know you said that it's been happening a while, but there could be ongoing issues that are sparked by changes like that and that's his only coping mechanism.

I honestly cannot tell you how quickly I'd ditch the old therapist and find a new one.

This needs repeating. Definitely needs new therapists.
A good occupational therapist may be able to help.
I'd also consider an evaluation by a neuro psych.


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## wintermama (Jul 5, 2007)

I have a 9 year old with encopresis. I am currently online doing more research, because I know there has got to be a better way than laxatives and punishments. (The only things the doctors are able to suggest.)

I have heard about milk allergy being a possible cause and I am ready to pursue eliminating dairy from his diet. This website told me a lot and I'm passing on the address in hopes that it may offer something to you, too.

http://brittneyholloway98.tripod.com/mpa.html

Good Luck.


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## kbchavez (Jul 20, 2006)

I'm leery of posting, since I'm no expert on mental illness in children... but the red flag in your post to me was that your son is medicated by the therapist. Psychotropic drugs in children is disturbing to me, and could possibly be making his problem worse, not better. I totally agree with the PP's that you should look for a new therapist. Maybe a different kind of a therapist that isn't so likely to use drugs and punishment to deal with this problem.


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## Way Up North (Sep 15, 2007)

I agree that it may be helpful, if at all possible, to seek another opinion. this kind of stuff can get pretty deep roots and be hard to improve.
Can I say, gently, that words like 'filthy' and 'disgusting' are terribly hard words (and I know from working with adults who were smearers, eaters etc. it is GROSS!) and if you approach it as a filthy habit rather than a sign of a problem, ds is going to pick that up too, which may make it even harder to change.
All the best and I hope you can find a way through, and soon!

L


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

You might consider posting on the special needs boards too -- there are a lot of parents there with kids with different diagnoses, and maybe different ways of looking at the issue.

I would also say:
consider occupational therapy -- the fecal smearing sounds a lot like he's seeking sensory input; though who knows why he's doing it at 9.

Has he seen a developmental pediatrician? That's what I'd ask for - their whole job is to figure out developmental issues/problems


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## swellmomma (Jan 1, 2004)

Thanks ladies, I will come up with a post for the special needs board. TO answer some questions. HE has been on meds since being admitted to the children's mental ward of the hospital. I will not be stopping these meds, they are the only thing keeping him and us safe. HE needs them to function even halfway normally. We are on the waitlist for another therapist, the waitlists out here are 18-24 months. We have been through every other children's psychologist int he city that is covered under provincial health care. It is from me finding new ones that we managed to finally get him diagnosed and receiving treatment.

Thank you for the link to that other thread. Much of what that lady mentioned about her son fits mine. I will have to bring up the possibility of bipolar with his next therapist once we finally get in. IT would make sense as to why no one agrees with his diagosis, he is different from one day to the next, and one week to the next.

I should report that we had 1 day of repreive in it yesterday, we had an awesome day and we were actually able to have fun and laugh for the first time in a long time. OF course the second he opened his eyes today he was violent to everyone and has peed on my livingroom floor.


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

Have you considered food allergies? An elimination diet?

DS is extremely violent and contrary when he gets even trace amounts of cow's milk in his diet (or mine, as he is still bf). He's only 17 months, but it manifests itself differently at different ages. At 4 mos, he'd scream nonstop. At 11 mos, he'd grab our skin to the point of bringing tears to our eyes. At 17 mos, he bites and kicks and throws tantrums about everything. Fortunately, he also vomits now, so we can easily pinpoint that he's eaten something contaminated with milk. But not all kids do.

I'm guessing that if left untreated, by age 9, he'd be doing some pretty violent, angry things.

Just a thought.


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## swellmomma (Jan 1, 2004)

I looked into GF/CF diet but it was so overwhelming everything to eliminate. I have heard that digest gold enzymes can mimik the effects of a gf/cf diet so I think I am going to look further into that.


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## cherryblossom (Jan 23, 2008)

please read the book "Gut and Psychology Syndrome" by Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride. i do not know that much about children's behaviors, but i do know that many children exhibit erratic behaviors when they are not being nourished and have hidden food allergies. this seems to me to be a dietary issue and his gut is probably extremely off balance especially since he is on so many drugs. she has successfully reversed autism and other related disorders with diet and supplemental intervention. if you want more info about this i can get more for you.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

There are not simple answers to mental illness, and I can only imagine that living with a mentally ill child is agonizing and frustrating. I work with children who do what you are describing at school, and I am the one who has to call the parent to come get the kid because we can't handle it. The toughest part for me is recognizing that the parent can't handle it either. Its not fair that a little boy has to struggle with something so difficult, and not fair that a good mama has to struggle along side. Then again, very few things are ever fair, are they?

_Of course_ discontinuing the meds is not an option. I think you really have to see, first hand, the difference in behavior and even personality in order to understand why meds are so critical for some people, even children. And you are absolutely right -- safety is paramount. However, continuing to work on refining his diagnosis and adjusting his meds as necessary is very important, especially with a growing child.

I have no idea what your life is like -- but I am hesitant to dissmiss out of hand the therapists and doctors who have suggested stricter discipline. It is possible that they don't mean "punishment" when they say "discipline" anymore than we do. I don't know about you, but for me -- even if spanking were philosophically acceptable to me (which it is not) it would be physically impossible for me with a nine year old, and not a logical precident to start with a mentally unstable child who is not always safe to be around, and who will soon be bigger than you are. I seriously doubt any sane professional would recommend that you start hitting him.

I wonder though, if they might mean something more along the lines of an established structure, routine, and logical consequences that are consistant and predictable. If indeed those are the sorts of recommendations being made, I would not dissmiss those suggestions.

What is the consequence when your son behaves in this way? Is he expected to take responsibility? To help clean up? Even if you cannot make him take responsibility in the moment, do you return to the issue later, when everyone is calmer, and ask him to be involved in solving the problem?

I am not a fan of contracts and incentives in normal situations, but I do recognize that some situations are not normal.... and sometimes you have to bring in some of those techniques for the sake of survival. I wonder about trying a contract that incorporates both a logical consequence (like being expected to help clean up the mess) and an incentive (like -- mom will have extra time for a nice fun family outing once a week, if she hasn't had to spend her time an energy cleaning up 9 year old poop during the week.)

Sometimes, esp. with kids who are oppositional, having a plan that the child sees as "fair" is successful when strategies based on attachment and trust have failed.

I recognize that you may have indeed tried everything. I wish that I were a friend IRL -- I would certainly help you in practical ways if I could -- by taking turns and even cleaning. You do indeed need some support and some practical help.

I have no doubt, no matter what you do, that you love your kid.


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