# Children Do Not Need To Be Coerced



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

by Peggy O'Mara, Mothering Magazine

To me, it is very simple. *The propensity to act aggressively is related to unmet needs.*

*Children and adults are not different. We have the same feelings.* Children who are disciplined with love respond lovingly.

_Children need to be involved in the problem-solving of the family. Punishment interferes with the bond between parent and child._

Children have a natural love of learning and *do not have to be coerced*

*Children deserve to be treated with respect*.

It is the potential _limitlessness_ of simply trusting our children that frightens parents. *We ask how we can maintain order and harmony in the household without control, without punishment.* As Jan will so aptly teach, *the household based on empathy, compassion and cooperation will have an inherent discipline that does not have to be enforced by punishment* It is enforced by love.

























I could not have said it better myself.

Pat

This excerpt is from the forward of Jan Hunt's book, The Natural Child, Parenting From the Heart
http://www.naturalchild.org/book/foreword.html

_Edited upon request due to copyright restriction to 100 words. Please see full text at above link._


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Gosh I love that Jan Hunt!








:

Oh heavens, hold the phone! That wasn't Jan, that was our very own Peggy O'Mara!

I love her, too!








:


----------



## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Beautiful!


----------



## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Nice and overall I understand and support it but.. Corsion has so many levels and I have yet to see anyone one here in real life in my own who doesn't use some degree of corsion each day.


----------



## alba (Aug 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom*
Nice and overall I understand and support it but.. Corsion has so many levels and I have yet to see anyone one here in real life in my own who doesn't use some degree of corsion each day.









Yeah really. Parents use coercion as much as children use manipulation.









See, look here...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *merriam-webster*
2 : to compel to an act or choice <was coerced into agreeing>

Seriously, here who hasn't done that via re-direction at the very least?

I coerce all the time via explanations to my own kids, pointing out why ______ behaviour is simply not acceptable by most standards, and therefore "compelling them not to act in that manner/make that choice".

More directly I closely follow that #2 definition when it's time to leave somewhere they like, or go to bed, or eat broccoli...


----------



## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

Seriously, here who hasn't done that via re-direction at the very least?

I coerce all the time via explanations to my own kids, pointing out why ______ behaviour is simply not acceptable by most standards, and therefore "compelling them not to act in that manner/make that choice".

More directly I closely follow that #2 definition when it's time to leave somewhere they like, or go to bed, or eat broccoli...
Really it took me awhile of thinking about coersion before I understood. It is specifically the *forceful* part that makes something coersion. I once thought redirection and distraction and even sharing information may be considered coersion. While by some it may, to me it is not. When I redirect or distract or share info I am not *forcing* my children to do something or not do something. They are choosing to, and if they choose to dissent we go further into problem solving mode over whatever the situation is. To compel IS to force. By force I'm thinking physical force, withholding 'privileges' or 'freedoms', punishing, etc. Those things would equate forcefulness and therefore coersion, imo.


----------



## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Well their are things that yes I will 'force" if it comes down to it. Carseats are non negiotiable, DD taking her insulin when needed is non negioatible so is checking her blood sugars. various others. Punishments are not part of our life problem solving is huge but their are some things that have to be done. Period.


----------



## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alba*







Yeah really. Parents use coercion as much as children use manipulation.









See, look here...

Seriously, here who hasn't done that via re-direction at the very least?

I coerce all the time via explanations to my own kids, pointing out why ______ behaviour is simply not acceptable by most standards, and therefore "compelling them not to act in that manner/make that choice".

More directly I closely follow that #2 definition when it's time to leave somewhere they like, or go to bed, or eat broccoli...









I think there is a difference between coercion and convincing.

Often, with kids or adults, one can present the facts and information that will convince the other party to change their mind. It happened to me numerous times, when I thought I was "right", but DH or somebody else presented additional information which made me change my mind. Redirection works on me too - I have stopped what I was doing to engage in more interesting activity.

So, I would not equal convincing and redirection to coercion


----------



## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

So, I would not equal convincing and redirection to coercion
Neither would I but I still disagree that enforcing certain things just never comes up.


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

*Quote:*

Children have a natural love of learning and do not have to be coerced

I love that quote from Peggy O'Mara!


*Quote:*

Children deserve to be treated with respect

..and this quote!

Quote:

*We ask how we can maintain order and harmony in the household without control, without punishment.*
Peggy O'Mara is on to something. I think she should start a website or something


----------



## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Again I find the words "nice" but very vague is it implied that at no time ever a parent (just saying parent cause thats what this board is about) needs to enforce something where at that time negioations and waiting for the child to agee just isn't going to work. I just don't see that. However maybe I'm just not understanding.


----------



## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom*
Again I find the words "nice" but very vague is it implied that at no time ever a parent (just saying parent cause thats what this board is about) needs to enforce something where at that time negioations and waiting for the child to agee just isn't going to work. I just don't see that. However maybe I'm just not understanding.

Yes, it is what is implied (in my understanding, of course)

Also there are different POV's on what "isn't going to work" mean. Isn't going to work making the child to do what mom says right then and there? May be.

But is the coercion going to work on making the child believe that it's OK for the bigger people to disrespect him/her? Even if it is only once in a great while? And only when adults seem to think that it's for a good reason? Real posbility.

Since I am a believer in mutual respect regardless of person's age I strive to not even put the coercion in my parenting tool box. It often helps me when I compare my interactions with my kids to my interactions with adults.

Would I "force" my husband in a car seat? Would I "make" him eat broccoli? Would I sternly tell him to go to bed? No. But I would talk to him about it and try to convince him, because I respect him. Not right there and then, when he is already agitated and the situation can grow into a full blow conflict, but "knowing" my husband (and "knowing" my child), I would do it wa-a-ay before.

And honestly, I find trying to convince an adult sometimes to be much harder than convincing a child!

However. Once convinced, kids want to do that XXX in question WITHOUT me ever having to convince them again! So, I find investing time in convincing to be very "lucrative"









PS. There are 1001 different approaches out there that do not involve coercion, not just convincing. I just had to look for them. And once I had no choice (took the coercion OUT of the concideration), I became very inventive


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I find that if I were to default to believing that a solution can't be found, then what is the point of trying to find one that meets everyone's needs? So, if we give up trying to find a solution that is agreeable to our son, we are *sure* not to find one.

So, no we don't coerce. But, everyone is free to coerce their children. I don't believe our son agrees to be coerced though.







Our goal is to find solutions which are agreeable to our son and to us. Our son is most effective at problem solving, thinking outside the box and negotiating. He has no experience "having to" do things he doesn't want to do; and he has had a lot of practice hearing our needs, and seeing us model conflict resolution which doesn't include coercion.

The secret to creating solutions that are agreeable to everyone is to keep seeking them by understanding and addressing underlying needs, imo. Time pressures are something that increase our life stress. So we consciously are selective about scheduling them into our lives, with full agreement and flexibility, of course.

If you have specific issues that you are seeking solutions which are agreeable to both your child and you, feel free to post them to the Consensual Living thread or Consensual Living tribe or join the Consensual Living yahoogroup. There are hundreds of families living without coercion and/or seeking solutions that are agreeable to everyone.

Consensual Living thread
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...43#post5729343

Consensual Living tribe
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ght=consensual

Consensual Living yahoogroup
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...guid=140240070

Pat


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
I find that if I were to default to believing that a solution can't be found, then what is the point of trying to find one that meets everyone's needs? So, if we give up trying to find a solution that is agreeable to our son, we are *sure* not to find one.

I completely agree. Also, I think thinking like that is a slippery slope. In other words, pretend I am one of these people who thinks spanking is okay "in dangerous situations" (I am NOT one of those people!!!!) --- I think most people who think like that *begin* with hitting their children in "dangerous situations" but then it becomes "dangerous situations and for ______" then "okay, dangerous situations, _____ and _____ and that's it" and so on...

Same with coercion. I have always maintained that I don't know if mutually agreeable solutions can be found in every.single.situation.on.this.whole.planet.at.any .given.time.forever. --- However, admitting that is different than _approaching situations with the idea that coercion and force is an acceptable back-up if my child doesn't want to adhere to my agenda._

I approach every situation _knowing_ a mutually agreeable solution can be reached. Even if in the end, it can't (this hasn't come up yet) -- I go in knowing it can and working towards it. When you take an approach of "well I will try to work with them but if they aren't compliant, my way or the highway but I'll try to be gentle in the process" then you set yourself up for what Pat was talking about.


----------



## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

Would I "force" my husband in a car seat? Would I "make" him eat broccoli? Would I sternly tell him to go to bed? No. But I would talk to him about it and try to convince him, because I respect him. Not right there and then, when he is already agitated and the situation can grow into a full blow conflict, but "knowing" my husband (and "knowing" my child), I would do it wa-a-ay before.








My DH 42 not 3. If their is someplace that we have to go and for what ever reason DD refused to go into her carseat then will I enforce the issue yes.







: I wouldn't do this to my DH because hes a grown up and doesn't use one. However say my DH decided to get him self drunk. I'd prevent him from getting into a car and physically prevent it as best I could if needed.
As far as wayyy before???? exactly how dos that work when DH calls and says he needs a file he left at home by his 2pm class and its 1:30 (takes at east 20 mintues to get their) then its time to go, I'm not thrilled anymore than she is and I'm fine reflecting feelings but we cannot wait untill she decides. Same with her medication we tak about what happens when she "gets the yuckies and pricklies" (the way she feels) and the fact taking her medicine isn't always peasent etc.. but whens shes having an epsoide not only do I NOT have the time to sit and reason with her its Dangerous to wait and plus her disease at that moment is compromising her thinking anyways. I have to step in and make it happen.


----------



## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

I approach every situation knowing a mutually agreeable solution can be reached.
Okay lets take a classic probably over used example (honestly I'm trying to see things from your POV ) a car seat. their is someplace that needs to be done lets accept that as fact. You need to leave in a timly manner your child is 2 and must be in car seat they don't want to so now what?


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
Peggy O'Mara is on to something. I think she should start a website or something























What a great idea!


----------



## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by *octobermom*
Again I find the words "nice" but very vague is it implied that at no time ever a parent (just saying parent cause thats what this board is about) needs to enforce something where at that time negioations and waiting for the child to agee just isn't going to work. I just don't see that. However maybe I'm just not understanding.
For me, those 'nice' words mean being extremely open to alternative solutions when conflict arises. I admit I have been forceful, rude, and demanding in my life, I don't think I can say that I won't ever be one of those things. I can say that I will not do one of those things and feel it was rightfully done. I can say I will do my very best each day to be respectful and not be forceful, rude, or demanding. I'm positive their is likely an alternative to coersion. I also believe that while coersion may 'work' to end the conflict and get whatever the parent feels needs done done, likely the child would have learned more from the conflict being resolved without force. Also I feel that coersion may even be detrimental to the child learning at times, even when done in the gentlest, not harsh and mean, way possible.


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom*
Okay lets take a classic probably over used example (honestly I'm trying to see things from your POV ) a car seat. their is someplace that needs to be done lets accept that as fact. You need to leave in a timly manner your child is 2 and must be in car seat they don't want to so now what?

This thread addresses this, I believe.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...hlight=carseat

Pat


----------



## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

That post didn't really address my question, what do you do when you CANNOT wait when you have to do things right away. While these things are not everyday occurances they are frequent enough though

Quote:

For me, those 'nice' words mean being extremely open to alternative solutions when conflict arises.
I agree what I meant by nice is the words were nicly said because nothing was said to challange them. Its kinda like me saying everyone should breastfeed that its ideal and give all the reasons why. I'd be right Id make sense etc but I'd be disregarding those who truly have issues weather emotional or physical they still need to be addressed. I'm probably not making any sense.







:

Quote:

Also I feel that coersion may even be detrimental to the child learning at times, even when done in the gentlest, not harsh and mean, way possible.
I can see that I also know the opposite to be true. My mother was extremly non corserive, (my father not so much but he worked longer hours) and as I grew I really fought for boundres for someone to be the grown up in my life It actually felt extremly disrespectful. Its hard to describe but it wasn't untill after I had Cecilia that I could finially put a finger on what was missing. Maybe its just my personality. DD the same way.


----------



## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by *octobermom*
Same with her medication we tak about what happens when she "gets the yuckies and pricklies" (the way she feels) and the fact taking her medicine isn't always peasent etc.. but whens shes having an epsoide not only do I NOT have the time to sit and reason with her its Dangerous to wait and plus her disease at that moment is compromising her thinking anyways. I have to step in and make it happen.
I think even most mom's aspiring to be non-coercive would coerce if absolutely neccessary in a dire, life threatening circumstance. Your dd had diabetes, right? And you feel that missing the insulin shot would be life threatening? I admit I have no personal experience with that. I do not know how dire or life threatening it would be if the child refused the insulin shot. I do think that I would do what I could in a ongoing situation such as this to inform and educate the child out of the moment. I would on an ongoing basis try to help her be agreeable to the shot. I can think of several ways I might attempt this if you are interested let me know.

I also would do tons of research into any alternatives to the shot. Is this possibly something that could be controlled by altering her diet, etc. I wouldn't feel comfortable just leaving it at this must be done so I'm forcing it. I would try to actively seek for something agreeable to both of us in any way possible. I am not saying that I wouldn't force it in a life threatening circumstance, rather that I would try to find a way it wouldn't be forced on an ongoing basis. This sounds like a very tough situation to be in. I'm sorry your daughter has this disease, and I'm sure with your help, she will soon understand if the shots are neccessary for her to be alive and it will then not be forced. She is very young to be going through something so difficult, with your guidance she will soon get it, I'm sure.


----------



## RootBeerFloat (Nov 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom*







My DH 42 not 3.

I have a hard time understanding why an older person is any more entitled to respectful treatment than a younger one. For us, respectfully is a way that we treat people--actually, all living things. Not just those living things for whom it's convenient or socially acceptable to do at the time.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom*
However say my DH decided to get him self drunk. I'd prevent him from getting into a car and physically prevent it as best I could if needed.

This, obviously, is a life or death situation and any of us would intervene if our kids were running toward the street or doing something similarly life threatening. The below, truly not life threatening, surely a mutually agreeable solution can be found, if you are *willing* to find it.

Quote:

As far as wayyy before???? exactly how dos that work when DH calls and says he needs a file he left at home by his 2pm class and its 1:30 (takes at east 20 mintues to get their) then its time to go, I'm not thrilled anymore than she is and I'm fine reflecting feelings but we cannot wait untill she decides.
Working hard to live mindfully, breath by breath helps me be less forgetful and hurried. Prevention, for us, is a huge key.

And, on those days when things really can't wait, I am sure to breathe. Explain what is going on and why. Give where I can--wearing pjs, big sippy of milk or juice for the car, playing the "let's pack up your animal friends for the car" game all are dd's favorites. Helping her walk to the car and climb in by herself is also helpful--and takes less time than wrestling her in there! None of this may apply to you, but my point is that I agree with Captain Crunchy--when you take coercion out of the toolbox, there's always a mutually agreeable solution to be found.

I'd like to comment on the medicine issue, too, but that will have to wait. Someone needs a boob.









Quote:

_It takes the same amount of time and attention to meet children's emotional needs as it does to deal with behaviors caused by their unmet emotional needs._
-Pam Leo, Connection Parenting

The follow up to this is that coercison creates unmet emotional needs, obviously.


----------



## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

OK, I have a different bone to pick!

I really loved that article, but I have to say I don't like the idea that we should constantly be striving to emulate some by-gone society. In my studies of history, I have never come across a culture where children were treated better or afforded more opportunities than the here and now. It seems naive to want to return to some tribal culture. I certainly wouldn't want to.


----------



## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

Your dd had diabetes, right? And you feel that missing the insulin shot would be life threatening? I admit I have no personal experience with that. I do not know how dire or life threatening it would be if the child refused the insulin shot. I do think that I would do what I could in a ongoing situation such as this to inform and educate the child out of the moment. I would on an ongoing basis try to help her be agreeable to the shot. I can think of several ways I might attempt this if you are interested let me know.
Shes border shes not on insulin all the time but their are times when we do need to medicate her. Not doing so could be life threating left alone she could have reactions from just being voilently sick (vomiting shaking etc to violent acts of aggression to comas, so no its not something we mess with. We talk about this all the time an for the most part have no issues. 1) its something shes always had we check her bs fout times a day (more if sick) shes used to it and we have foud our way. Even the shots are overall agreeable because yes she understands why. (she also says they don't hurt) however WHEN a problem arrises when weve made a mistake or she having a reaction and we need to eaither medicate or get her to a hospital she can be extremly uncoperative truth is no amount of explaining at other times can make these epsoides go away because her minds being compromised at that time. She thinks things are crawling on her that were trying to hurt her they people are out to get her. It would b cruel and pontless trying to reason at this time. Its an extreme example I know. However it does lead to some other areas. We envoke certain rules and standards about food because of this. I've posted on our food battles so in no way are we forcing her but somethings cannot be allowed. It would be dangerous for us to compromise.


----------



## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

I have a hard time understanding why an older person is any more entitled to respectful treatment than a younger one. For us, respectfully is a way that we treat people--actually, all living things. Not just those living things for whom it's convenient or socially acceptable to do at the time.
I meant that say in the case of a carseat I wouldn't force my DH because he doesn't need to be in one I junt don't see the connection. I feel its diesrespectful to assume my 3 year old can handle the same things (not being in a carseat) as an adult.

Quote:

This, obviously, is a life or death situation and any of us would intervene if our kids were running toward the street or doing something similarly life threatening. The below, truly not life threatening, surely a mutually agreeable solution can be found, if you are *willing* to find it.
Soo I ask again what if your child wont sit in a car seat wouldn't you not enforce it?

Quote:

And, on those days when things really can't wait, I am sure to breathe. Explain what is going on and why. Give where I can--wearing pjs, big sippy of milk or juice for the car, playing the "let's pack up your animal friends for the car" game all are dd's favorites. Helping her walk to the car and climb in by herself is also helpful--and takes less time than wrestling her in there! None of this may apply to you, but my point is that I agree with Captain Crunchy--when you take coercion out of the toolbox, there's always a mutually agreeable solution to be found.
See all those sound warm and fuzzy and paint an ideal picture and honestly how I know my life is. (for the record mine loves her car seat







) but what happens when as soon as you say "we need to do X phrased any which way your chid trows them selfs into a total tantrum, when even when our doing what they want and ask its still happens when you child has no communcation skills. and all that talking is doing is making things 10000x;s worse.


----------



## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

I also would do tons of research into any alternatives to the shot. Is this possibly something that could be controlled by altering her diet, etc. I wouldn't feel comfortable just leaving it at this must be done so I'm forcing it. I would try to actively seek for something agreeable to both of us in any way possible. I am not saying that I wouldn't force it in a life threatening circumstance, rather that I would try to find a way it wouldn't be forced on an ongoing basis. This sounds like a very tough situation to be in. I'm sorry your daughter has this disease, and I'm sure with your help, she will soon understand if the shots are neccessary for her to be alive and it will then not be forced. She is very young to be going through something so difficult, with your guidance she will soon get it, I'm sure.








: Okay this is annoying we are always open to reaseach and alternitives but for now THIS is best. She is on a special diet things can still happen! I'm sorry but do you have any idea what a child can be like once the "disease" takes over??? we go months and months with no problems wre no medicine is needed but then something happens and sorry she doesn't have time for me to say lets see if we can compromise.
I'm obviously failing to make something clear. We do talk ask her right now what needs to be done if she feels yucky ans she will say she needs her special yellow pricks. (its like a pen) she knows that she accets that but right now shes not having a severe reaction. When those occur (and you bet we do all we can to prevent them) she CANNOT be reasoned with because it affects her mind. We have to enforce certain rules at other times so that we avoid these battles. Is enforcing a special diet not corosive?







: Its still necessary.


----------



## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by *octobermom*
Okay this is annoying we are always open to reaseach and alternitives but for now THIS is best. She is on a special diet things can still happen! I'm sorry but do you have any idea what a child can be like once the "disease" takes over??? we go months and months with no problems wre no medicine is needed but then something happens and sorry she doesn't have time for me to say lets see if we can compromise.
I'm obviously failing to make something clear. We do talk ask her right now what needs to be done if she feels yucky ans she will say she needs her special yellow pricks. (its like a pen) she knows that she accets that but right now shes not having a severe reaction. When those occur (and you bet we do all we can to prevent them) she CANNOT be reasoned with because it affects her mind. We have to enforce certain rules at other times so that we avoid these battles. Is enforcing a special diet not corosive? Its still necessary.
I am sorry. I really was not meaning to come across as annoying. I am quite ignorant about the disease myself. I know very little about diabetes. I was not trying to say that you haven't done research, I am very, very sure you know alot more about it than I do, because your child has it. I was just saying that because I don't know anything about it, I would research it, to see what, if any alternatives were available and pertinent to the child's specific health concern. My post was meant as support. Especially this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by *MissRubyandKen*
This sounds like a very tough situation to be in. I'm sorry your daughter has this disease, and I'm sure with your help, she will soon understand if the shots are neccessary for her to be alive and it will then not be forced. She is very young to be going through something so difficult, with your guidance she will soon get it, I'm sure.
To me it really does sound like you are making a huge effort to do the best you can in this situation. It sounds like a very tough situation. I can guess what I might do if one of my children had life threatening health concerns, but I have never actually been in that situation. Please know that my words were not meant to annoy at all. I was just offering my thoughts and suggestions to the topic you brought up, and what was meant as support, really.
I understand now from your posts that in the moment there is really nothing you can do. I can definitely see that happening. I can get quite unreasonable at times when my blood sugar is low, and I am an adult with the experience to know exactly what is going on and the learned ability to recognize it. To have a child who has a disease that affects them so strongly at times, momma all I can do is offer







and support, and empathize again that it sounds very tough.


----------



## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

I am sorry. I really was not meaning to come across as annoying. I am quite ignorant about the disease myself.








thats okay and I didn't mean to snap at you (low BS hadn't had lunch yet







) I also suffer from the same thing DD has for us our bodies produce insulin but our bodies don't use it properly proper diet exceise sleep ect keep it under control but things happen. I'll give an example as DH and I both recall it. DD was about 18 month old at my last attack (she over 3.5 years) anyeays I woke up about 2am in my mind I was really hot and hungry I remember thinking my BS dropping I should eat but all rational thinking stopped their. When DH woke up he found me sitting on the kitchen floor dishes all around me trying to open a can of beans with a kitchen table knife and and a screwdriver cause all the other food had been "hidden from me" now mind you there was plenty of food for me to get and we have a can opener. that luckily was a mild reaction DH was able to get some soda down me (and yes lietly poured it) and things turned around fast. But its an example of how misguided the mind can act during an epsiode.


----------



## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

octobermom,


----------



## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom*
Again I find the words "nice" but very vague is it implied that at no time ever a parent (just saying parent cause thats what this board is about) needs to enforce something where at that time negioations and waiting for the child to agee just isn't going to work. I just don't see that. However maybe I'm just not understanding.

I think we all on the GD forum can







this excerpt. But I'm not sure we all interpret it to mean the same thing?

Notice the excerpt is anti - "punishment" - that is the word that is used. I think most forms of GD on these boards are anti-punishment. I wonder if the author is anti "consequences" - be they logical? or natural? I didn't read that in the excerpt . . . ..


----------



## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom*
I think we all on the GD forum can







this excerpt. But I'm not sure we all interpret it to mean the same thing?

Notice the excerpt is anti - "punishment" - that is the word that is used. I think most forms of GD on these boards are anti-punishment. I wonder if the author is anti "consequences" - be they logical? or natural? I didn't read that in the excerpt . . . ..

Totally agree thats actually what I meant simpily that just "what was posted" was nice cuddly and sweet but incomplete it did nothing to explain her position is just spouted of some ideals. I'd be intrested in reading more and may do so but that alone told me little. (I'm still confusing thing aren't I?)


----------



## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

So this kind of concept - it sounds a lot like TCS? Is that what this is?







:


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
So this kind of concept - it sounds a lot like TCS? Is that what this is?







:

I don't think Peggy O'Mara advocates TCS.


----------



## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*
So this kind of concept - it sounds a lot like TCS? Is that what this is?







:

Not exactly. I would "label" it TES, for Taking Everybody Seriously


----------



## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom*







My DH 42 not 3.

I was not implying that your DH needs to use a car seat. What I was trying to say is that I would go for *convincing* him, not for coercion.
As far as the example of him getting drunk, we usually discuss what course of action we will take if either one of us gets drunk before we go some place were this can happen.

It's not like drunkeness happens out of nowhere







, so we think ahead.

As I recall, we only needed to go over our "strategy" once, may be twice. I can not imagine having to discuss it when he is *already* drunk, too late then.

PS. Please don't get the impression everybody that we regularly get drunk! I am only discussing this because it came up as one of the examples


----------



## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

: I or DH have never been drunk so maybe its a bad example cause I'm totaly lost on your answer.
But back on the carseat so 1) what is talking it out wasn't working how long are you willing to not do what needs to be done? When does it not become the childs choice? and again how do you tak it through with say a 10 month old?







:


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

PS. Please don't get the impression everybody that we regularly get drunk!
Who are you trying to convince?














Totally kidding! I agree with your post btw


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)




----------



## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

lmao at those little drinking smilies!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Come on you guys! It's only every other day now!


----------



## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:

I don't think Peggy O'Mara advocates TCS.
That's why I asked.









Quote:

Not exactly. I would "label" it TES, for Taking Everybody Seriously
I get it, I get it.


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom*







: I or DH have never been drunk so maybe its a bad example cause I'm totaly lost on your answer.
But back on the carseat so 1) what is talking it out wasn't working how long are you willing to not do what needs to be done? When does it not become the childs choice? and again how do you tak it through with say a 10 month old?







:

Unless something is life threatening, it is our son's choice. I trust that he isn't suicidal; so if he were to step off the curb with a car coming, I'd grab him back, just like I have done when dh has stepped off the curb with a car coming. I do actively provide him with information, alternatives, support, facilitation, and engaged participation to make his choices as safe as I feel necessary. But, I don't impose anything on him against his will. The key is connecting with him to understand his underlying need and working to meet that.

10 month olds are distractable with about anything they can hold. Is there something specific that is a struggle?

Pat


----------



## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
I don't think Peggy O'Mara advocates TCS.

What does TCS stand for again? Its a consensual living concept - I think I know that much . . . .







Its just slipped my mind what it actually stands for right now!


----------



## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

TCS- Taking Children Seriously


----------



## lilylove (Apr 10, 2003)

Thanks for your patience.
Reopened


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Thank you for reopening this thread.

Pat


----------



## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

10 month olds are distractable with about anything they can hold. Is there something specific that is a struggle?
Not all...


----------



## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
10 month olds are distractable with about anything they can hold. Is there something specific that is a struggle?

Not true.

_Many_ 10 month olds are easily distractable.

My dd, on the other hand, was throwing full on tantrums by 9 months because she wanted what she wanted, period. I did my best to respect that, which included things like hiding when I wanted to eat something that she couldn't share, because she'd lose it if I wouldn't share my food. Dd was born with an opinion. I can relate - she gets it from me.







I admire that quality in her, but I'll be darned if I'm going to let one person in the house run the entire show. She'd happily do it, too.

I do by best to parent respectfully, and to minimize coercion (in the sense of physically intervening against her will) but forms of coercion are definately in my toolbox and I don't have a problem with it. Its great that some of us here at MDC aspire to be coercion-free, but others of us do not share that aspiration.

As dd is getting older, she is getting much more reasonable and I use less coercion. She knows that I'm willing to work together to find mutually agreeable solutions, and that her opinions and feelings are important. She also knows that in some situations, I will calmly step in and enforce basic rules. We don't have many rules, but we do have some.

I can't remember what pp mentioned that she was confident her son wasn't suicidal, so it was ok to physically restrain him from running into the street. By the same logic, it is ok for me to remove a toy from dd's hands that she has grabbed from another child.

Dd thrives on intense situations, and one the ways she tries to connect with other kids is to grab a toy, giggle while the child yells, and hope to be chased. She's trying to engage the other kid, but she isn't mentally at the place where she understand 98% other kids don't find this fun. I know that she wants to connect, and in the heat of the moment she is not always able to calm down and give the toy back. *I trust that she is trying to connect.* I trust that in time, she'll understand that there are different strokes for different folks. So if she won't release the toy, I gently pry it from her hands while explaining that Joe doesn't think its a fun game, and then I help her make a connection at a speed that Joe can handle. (This involves things like introductions and verbal invitations to play).

She's getting better at this stuff all the time, and its clear to me that my method has worked for her. It wouldn't work for a different child, but it works for her and I'm quite happy with the way we do things around here.


----------



## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

Very cool quote from Peggy!










~Tracy


----------



## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

I think was Octobermom was getting at is that sometimes compromise or convincing isn't appropriate or even possible.

* when a child is ill or incapacitated in some way (as her example of her child when her bloodsugar is crashing)

* when there is a potentially dangerous situation (such as my nearly 3 year old trying to stick a piece of metal into a wall plug - true story).

* when expediency is paramount and time is of the essence (rare but it happens)

* when convincing has totally failed and coersion is preferable to a parent losing it entirely (which happens far too frequently around here).

Of course, we all try to avoid these situations whenever possible. But we are not superhuman, though my kids seem to have superhuman powers of persistance...









And to follow up to the comment about "you don't try to force your dh into a carseat." No, but if my dh wants to ride in my car, he will wear a seatbelt. Ditto any passenger in my car. I won't try to convince, I will enforce - and most adults know "my car, my rules".

Frankly, there is lots in my life I have no choice over. While I agree in a way with the philosophical approach of "everything is a choice", in truth there are many many things I just swallow because it is easier to accept it than find an alternative. Ya gotta pick your battles, ya know.

In addition, I have found it very very very difficult to convince my nearly 3 year old of ANYTHING when he gets into his obsessive moods. It is like flipping a switch with him - he will be fairly reasonable about many topics, but when he gets into an obsessive mood, he doesn't even hear me.

For example, he loves vaccum cleaners. Dh went to the store the other day with ds to buy some food containers, which were unfortunately right next to the vaccum cleaners. DS desperately wanted to play with the green vaccum cleaner (green is his favorite color for vaccum cleaners - I swear). After asking, and yelling, and screaming, he started to climb the display to get to them after dh explained that he couldn't get it down (since it was CHAINED to the shelf - which he showed to ds). DH had to physically prevent him from climbing the display.

DH tried reminding ds that he has two vaccum cleaners at home. He tried distracting him with a new toy (which in my mind is dangerously close to bribing). He tried empathizing ("you love vaccum cleaners and you want to play with the green one, don't you!")

But DS started tantruming because he wanted to play with that vaccum cleaner right there, right now. DH finally picked him up, placed him in the cart and removed him from the store.

Is this coersion? How on earth do you convince a not yet 3 year old to stop screaming and yelling and trying to climb on top of a display to pull down a vaccum cleaner?

DS has little or no impulse control when it comes to certain things. We try very very hard to avoid those situations, but we can't make the world perfect and safe all the time. While we are waiting for DS to gain impulse control, coersion is going to have to be one more tool in our parenting kit.

My 2 cents.

Siobhan


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:

"I never wanted to be a dad. I couldn't really give a rip. And now I am the proudest father, I've got to tell you. Oh, I just... I can't dwell on her for too long or I start bawling. In the field, mate, I've got a photo. I've got a photo of my daughter and I can just sit there and start crying just looking at her. Who would have thought someone as ugly as me could bring into the world something so beautiful, such a treasure? *And so I've been asked about philosophies of fatherhood and how to be a good parent and all that, and to tell you the truth, mate, all I do is just treat her exactly how I would want to be treated. She wants to have chocolate, Mum's not looking - "Here, have the whole block." And you know what? It works out. She's not a chubby, little, fat chocolate freak kid*."
Yay Steve Irwin.

May he Rest in Peace.


----------



## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom*
I think we all on the GD forum can







this excerpt. But I'm not sure we all interpret it to mean the same thing?

Notice the excerpt is anti - "punishment" - that is the word that is used. I think most forms of GD on these boards are anti-punishment. I wonder if the author is anti "consequences" - be they logical? or natural? I didn't read that in the excerpt . . . ..

I was surfing today and took a look at this http://www.mothering.com/community_t...unishment.html

It reminded me of this thread - and our discussion on how to interpret Peggy's comment that the OP posted. I noticed that on this list of "Alternatives to Punishment" that Mothering includes in what it calls its Natural Parenting Toolbox online - they include natural consequences and logical consequences - I excerpt that portion here and you can click the link to see the whole piece . . . . .

"Copy this list and post it where you can see it, as a constant reminder.

* Use positive reinforcement.
* Create a positive environment.
* Say yes as much as possible.
* Save no for the important things.
** Use natural consequences.
* Use logical consequences. . . . . . "*

Just a good example how the piece that is the subject matter of this thread can be interpretted quite differently . . .


----------

