# Parents who CHOOSE not to eat/feed their family organic



## Amila (Apr 4, 2006)

Can anyone help me find an explanation for this? I don't get it. DH and I have a few close friends who can afford organic, but happen to come off as pretty anti-organic.

The only things I can come up with are:

1- They ate that way growing up and are alive today argurment
2- They aren't giving in to the organic "hype"

Thoughts?


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

Have you asked them?


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## Rosedotcom (Apr 22, 2003)

I don't think you have to eat organic to eat healthy, but that doesn't equal ezmac. I do think it has a lot to do with your upbringing and what you were raised on.


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## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

a lot of people are convinced that their kids just won't like healthy food so why bother trying? It's not an attitude I get, honestly.


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## Liquesce (Nov 4, 2006)

Different tastes and a different concept of what constitutes a reasonable diet. I'm not even sure why there's a question in that, honestly. Different people eat different ways ... the notion that ez-mac can ONLY be explained by ignorance or poverty is just ... odd.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
I don't think you have to eat organic to eat healthy, but that doesn't equal ezmac. *I do think it has a lot to do with your upbringing and what you were raised on*.

I think there is a lot of truth in this. I grew up working class and there are a lot of foods I still enjoy despite knowing they are bad for me (fried bologna sandwich as one example). Granted I don't eat them often but I know I have friends who wonder about some of my eating habits. Since while I do eat fairly healthy and organic, I do like my junk







.

All in all I say I would just ask these folks if its something you really want to know.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amila* 
Can anyone help me find an explanation for this? I don't get it. DH and I have a few close friends with NO money problems, who are very well educated (one is in the health field, the other is a biologist) and they are pretty anti-organic, and just often eat and feed their kids stuff that is BLATANTLY bad. Like EZ-MAC. For a 1-year old.

The only things I can come up with are:

1- They ate that way growing up and are alive today argurment
2- They aren't giving in to the organic "hype"

Thoughts?

Health field. Biologist.

I think that explains it?


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## 34me (Oct 2, 2006)

My sister falls into this catagory. She also works alot because well, she's upper middle class. Her deal is mostly time. She has huge mother guilt (although she also loves her job) and wants to spend as much time as possible as she can with her girls. She goes into work at 4 in the morning so that she can be home at 4 to help with home work and shuttle to activities. Oh, and she once burned the green beans trying to boil them. It's easier to bake some chicken nuggets that it is to do almost anything else. She does those make ahead meal places once in a while and it's better, but.....


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Liquesce* 
Different tastes and a different concept of what constitutes a reasonable diet. I'm not even sure why there's a question in that, honestly. Different people eat different ways ... the notion that ez-mac can ONLY be explained by ignorance or poverty is just ... odd.









: I don't understand why you think EZmac is "BLATANTLY" bad.


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## reezley (May 27, 2006)

Convenience? I bet if there were an Annie's Organic Easy Mac they would buy it instead. I myself make the kids Annie's Shells & Cheese way too often...


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
I don't think you have to eat organic to eat healthy, but that doesn't equal ezmac. I do think it has a lot to do with your upbringing and what you were raised on.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *frontierpsych* 
a lot of people are convinced that their kids just won't like healthy food so why bother trying? It's not an attitude I get, honestly.

nak

these... plus, if they're used to eating crap they'll be less open to changing their palate as well.


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 







: I don't understand why you think EZmac is "BLATANTLY" bad.

Yeah...I guess if that's ALL they eat...

Anti-organic I get, because all the "major" studies have found no nutritional difference between organic and non-organic produce. *I'm* not sold on that, plus there are a number of environmental, bigger-picture reasons to eat organic, but I can see an educated individual deciding it's not a big deal.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gcgirl* 
Yeah...I guess if that's ALL they eat...

Or if it's made with lead shavings...

Maybe the kid likes it and it makes him happy. I would've been thrilled if my ds would've eaten any food between the ages of one and two. He did his best to EBF and occasionally tolerated a few pretzels.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

If EZmac has that fake powdered cheese stuff and white pasta, then it's full of sodium, artificial colors, and empty calories. I use barilla plus when I make pasta. It's high protein and has more nutrients. You can also melt real cheese into hot drained pasta. My 3.5 DD still doesn't eat a lot so I try to offer her nutrient rich foods. When I'm too busy, there's alway things like cold garbanzo beans and grape tomatoes, which also has more nutrients than boxed mac and cheese.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Well, for 2 WOH parent families, a lot of it boils down to convience. I shop at the local supermarket. What it carries is what we eat. We do make an effort to get to the farmer's market most weekends, which gives us great produce options. And I do cook from scratch more than many WOHMs do. But realistically, many choices we make are "less bad" amongst the convenient options that are easily available. Its often driven by what the day's schedule is X what the grocery store carries. Its not nearly as perfectly healthy as it could be with more time, but its the best we can do.

And really, I'm not buying into the "it always has to be perfectly healthy" obsession. My basic belief is that if its mostly healthy, to occassional EzMac (or Big Mac) isn't going to hurt anyone. Even if its accompanied by a soda and non-organic apples.


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## Teensy (Feb 22, 2002)

Because we all have different priorities in life and it's not at the top of their list. I read all the arguments on MDC that eating healthy is just as easy and inexpensive as eating less healthy choices, but I promise I can make my kids Kraft Mac-n-cheese, knowing they will eat every last bite on their plate, faster than homemade pasta, which they may or may not eat, or chopping vegetables, which they likely won't eat, period. I do NOT enjoy cooking, so the less thought and effort involved in a meal, the better.







I try to limit the junk my family eats, but compared to what I read about other MDC moms feed their families, our meals probably have more in common with those of which you write.







:


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ssh* 
You can also melt real cheese into hot drained pasta.

I love homemade mac & cheese, and I also love the Kraft stuff. I find cheese melted straight into noodles disgusting, and neither of my kids like it, either. I've tried it a few times. I make sauce from scratch, instead. However, that does take much, much longer than the boxed stuff, is more expensive...and both my younger ones like the boxed stuff better. *sigh*

Quote:

My 3.5 DD still doesn't eat a lot so I try to offer her nutrient rich foods. When I'm too busy, there's alway things like cold garbanzo beans and grape tomatoes, which also has more nutrients than boxed mac and cheese.
I have no idea if my kids would touch cold garbanzo beans, as neither of them seem to care for bean (except canned kidney beans, for whatever reason) all that much. I've tried introducing beans quite a few times. They _love_ grape tomatoes...but ds2 could eat a whole package and still be hungry. That doesn't tend to happen with something like EZ Mac. Sometimes, getting the child _full_ counts for a lot.

OP: Do you know for sure that they have no money problems? People don't always talk about it...even with close friends.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *reezley* 
Convenience? I bet if there were an Annie's Organic Easy Mac they would buy it instead. I myself make the kids Annie's Shells & Cheese way too often...

There is one. Not that I would know about that or anything . . .


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## Liquesce (Nov 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I have no idea if my kids would touch cold garbanzo beans, as neither of them seem to care for bean (except canned kidney beans, for whatever reason) all that much. I've tried introducing beans quite a few times. They _love_ grape tomatoes...but ds2 could eat a whole package and still be hungry. That doesn't tend to happen with something like EZ Mac. Sometimes, getting the child _full_ counts for a lot..

Had I just made a no-context post about my son's diet at a year old people would have been appalled. But it was successfully maximize calories by whatever means possible or go down the feeding tube route. While I suppose there are some people who would prefer the tube to a lot of sugar, salt, preservatives, and whatnot, I'm not one of them. Had he been willing to sit down to boxed mac and cheese and really _eat_ I'd have been thrilled.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

For my family it was a little bit of many things.

Definitely, my parents don't buy into the 'organic hype'. They also grew up eating a moderately reasonable diet but definitely not healthy-healthy. And the reason they were middle-upper income was that both my parents were working and simply didn't have *time* to be super-conciencious.

They did try though. Growing up, many of our evening meals were rice/noodles (white), crockpot meat, and steamed veggies. Better than a lot of kids get, for sure. We got chips and ice cream and candy on top of that, but the base wasn't so bad.


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## Just Elsa (May 18, 2009)

They believe differently than you do. There's a good chance they're equally horrified that you would choose not to vaccinate your kids- that's a decision a lot of folks don't understand. Sometimes all we can really do is accept that other people make different choices and let it go. Maybe this is the current state of a decision to let their kids self-direct and they're just waiting for the kids to choose healthier foods.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Some people just don't care about food, really. I have a friend who's educated, well-off, etc--and the whole family eats a ton of processed food. And she is a big runner, in excellent shape. Cooking, nutrition, vegetables...are just not her thing.


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

I must also chime in with convienace.

My coworkers call me supermom and marvel that I go home each day and cook dinner. Except recently, I havent done it near as much. Im tired, frankly. When I cook casseroles, I always use the good whole wheat pastas etc, but sometimes my kids do get mac n cheese from a box and gasp, hotdogs.

They love it too. At least I try for chicken hotdogs.

I tried researched healthy eating and there is a lot of conflicting info out there and on here. Meat is toxic, meat is vital, eat it raw. Diary is evil, drink soy, soy is evil dont drink it. And everything is contaminated. I gave up. I told dh that the only way to be safe is to grow and raise all your own food but then you have to worry about whats in your soil and water!!!!!!!

Ive decided to eat as healthy as possible, eat what we like, even the occasional trip to mcdonalds, and hope for the best.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Why don't you set up a Vegan and a Traditional Foods believer for a debate and see if that opens your mind to the fact that people have differing ideas about what constitutes a healthy diet?


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## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

I'm kinda shocked you're surprised, actually. Most of the educated, not-struggling people i know eat crap. The exceptions are the NP crowd. There is an obesity epidemic among our children and everyone seems to think it can't happen to "their" children. In fact, we get a lot of hostility for insisting on healthy foods --and a lot of that insistence is due to food allergies, so we're not just being "picky." But, OMG, if you could see the snacks people bring for my ds's 5 yo soccer games at the Y, of all places.







: It boggles the mind. And it's hard to politely refuse without being perceived as rude or snobbish.

And I hate cooking as much as the next person. We do it for our kids. And it's not about organics, but just trying to avoid artificial everything and hfcs... plus the various allergens.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

A lot of organic stuff and natural stuff hasn't really been proven to be healthier. Some of it is lighter on the earth; and some stuff that's not labelled organic is probably actually better than the labelled stuff. I buy some organic stuff, some local non-organic, and some shipped from who knows where stuff that is not organic. We live in NYC, it's not the main source of pollutants for my family I imagine. Not worth shelling out extra $$ for IMO.

I buy local eggs from free-range, well-treated chickens. I don't actually think they're healthier, but they do taste better, and it's an ethics issue for me. I buy TJ milk--hormone free bc I think that makes a health difference. But not organic, bc it's too much $$ and it's less of an ethics issue for me. (I don't think organic factory cows live much better than non-organic factory cows.)

I just bought pre-made pie crusts, my pantry has lots of box mac n' cheese (Trader Joe's, not Annie's... it's 1/2 the price and the sauce melts better). I worry about demonstrated difference in nutrition first, then in taste. Between the two, I end up with fairly natural stuff with fats and caffiene and sugar and salt. That's fine and normal IMO, and I don't want them removed via chemicals. We don't use salt except in baking, literally it's in the baking drawer and guests end up asking where the salt is. I don't feel that it makes food taste better, so none of us use it. I'm NOT worried about sodium in box mac n' cheese. None of us have issues with body fat or cholesterol or anything, so as long as it's not trans fat, I'd rather naturally occuring fat than fat-removed and replaced with funky stuff instead. Same with sugar. Better than HCFS, which I do try to avoid, but not stringently. If there's something we eat/drink a lot of, I switch brands to avoid it. But DH loves his coke, and I'm not paying the $ to ship HCFS-free to us. There are bigger issues in our lives.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

They're probably not overanalyzing it or thinking "This is the pinnacle of nutrition and I am a Perfect Parent for feeding this to my kids." They're probably just thinking, "This is quick, easy, and he'll eat a lot of it in one sitting."


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by reezley
Convenience? I bet if there were an Annie's Organic Easy Mac they would buy it instead. I myself make the kids Annie's Shells & Cheese way too often...
If we are going by taste, I would take Kraft easy mac over Annie's anyday. Annie's is bland, in my (and my kids) opinions. I have a cabinet full of it, and no one wants to eat it.

We eat a lot of organic, healthy foods... but we also eat "mainstream junk" too.


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## RollerCoasterMama (Jul 22, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *reezley* 
Convenience? I bet if there were an Annie's Organic Easy Mac they would buy it instead. I myself make the kids Annie's Shells & Cheese way too often...

There is!!!







It's good---we keep it around for emergencies. The white cheddar kind is yummmmm.


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## isaoma (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gcgirl* 
Anti-organic I get, because all the "major" studies have found no nutritional difference between organic and non-organic produce.

Actually, I think that this thinking in the health/medical field has taken a turn recently. I see health & food journals articles that quote major studies that have found that organic foods fruits & vegetables AND those from animal sources (eggs, dairy and meat) are more nutritionally packed. Although, no one has come out and said this is true across the board -- i.e. one study found organic pastured eggs more nutritionally dense, another found pastured cows have more CLA, and yet another stated that carrots grown in bio-dynamic soil had more nutrients, etc.


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## Belia (Dec 22, 2007)

Ease- it's much quicker and easier to drive-thru someplace than plan a meal, shop, cook, and clean up.

Habit- If you're used to FF and convenience foods, then you may just keep on keepin' on. I bet most of us have a core set of recipes we prepare over and over.

Overwhelming- A couple of years ago I tried to eliminate personal products that are NOT cruelty-free (in other words, I didn't want to buy anything anymore that was tested on animals). It was SO HARD. Every little company is owned by a bigger company that is owned by a ginormous company.... that tested on animals. It was also so expensive. I would imagine that trying to eliminate HFCS or preservatives would be much the same.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

People eat crap for a variety of reasons. I don't think mac and cheese is any healthier in the organic form than it is in the nonorganic form, it is pesticide free but still not a healthy daily food choice. I make quick food sometimes when I am tired or sick, we always have fresh fruit and veggies with it though. My friend is a stay at home mom with depression and that is why she and her son eat at junk food places all the time, she can feed her kid without exerting energy she doesn't have and get him to play with other kids at the play area.

If you want to know why your friends make their food choices then you should ask them. I also think it is unfortunate to assume that bad food choices and lack of education are mostly limited to poor people. I don't know any poor people who fit the stereotypical nutrition patterns, the people in my family and amoung my friends make very health conscious choices and view foods without good nutritional value as occassional treats and food to cook when they are truly sick and exhausted. We are almost all also highly educated. Bad food choices run deeper than education and poverty.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *isaoma* 
Actually, I think that this thinking in the health/medical field has taken a turn recently. I see health & food journals articles that quote major studies that have found that organic foods fruits & vegetables AND those from animal sources (eggs, dairy and meat) are more nutritionally packed. Although, no one has come out and said this is true across the board -- i.e. one study found organic pastured eggs more nutritionally dense, another found pastured cows have more CLA, and yet another stated that carrots grown in bio-dynamic soil had more nutrients, etc.

Pastured and bidynamic soil are not the same thing as organic though. My eggs are free range, but they're not organic. The chickens sometimes get food that is not organic, hence the farmer can't label the eggs organic. However, they also live outside, eat bugs, have regular chicken lives, etc. Organic laying chickens might just eat organic corn in a tiny cage all day. Same with organic fruit/veg in many cases. Local farmers market has a couple people who don't or can't meet the organic requirements but their stuff is fantastic and healthy and local. I don't care if it's labelled organic.


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## julesdsm (Aug 18, 2008)

I try my best to feed my family healthy meals and to get vegetables into 4 year old dss. But there sre some nights when i just don't want to spend an hour in the kitchen and a hot dog or mac and cheese only takes a few minutes. Is it great for them? No, but its not going to kill them either if had on occasion.

My guess would be that convenience is the main reason. Along with just being used/ growing up with that kinds of food. They probably don't even give it any thought.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Belia* 
Ease- it's much quicker and easier to drive-thru someplace than plan a meal, shop, cook, and clean up.

Habit- If you're used to FF and convenience foods, then you may just keep on keepin' on. I bet most of us have a core set of recipes we prepare over and over.

Overwhelming- A couple of years ago I tried to eliminate personal products that are NOT cruelty-free (in other words, I didn't want to buy anything anymore that was tested on animals). It was SO HARD. Every little company is owned by a bigger company that is owned by a ginormous company.... that tested on animals. It was also so expensive. I would imagine that trying to eliminate HFCS or preservatives would be much the same.

In addition to these: Conformity. Many upper middle class communities are extremely homogenous and there can tremendous pressure to simply do what everyone else is doing. (I speak from experience here.)


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

It's interesting isn't it, what people eat and why? I had a few thoughts.

One is that if you're just judging on what they eat when you're there it might not be their regular diet. I reconnected with a childhood friend a few years ago and we each kept making each other bland food because that's what we thought the other was used to. Meanwhile we'd both changed considerably and were like, shopping special for each other. That was kind of funny.









Second I guess I sympathize a bit because growing up there were years when we pretty much ate: hamburger helper, mac & cheese, hot dogs and iceberg lettuce salad, meatloaf, spaghetti, on a sort of rotation. I have not eaten like that in years and yet when I was thinking about "what do kids eat," of course what came to mind were the things that I ate growing up. It was kind of deep culture there or something.

Third and generally, I totally agree with a PP who said some people just keep on making what they have always made. I can actually get a tofu stir fry or even a homemade pasta with a walnut-spinach pesto put together faster than many pre-prepared foods NOW but it took a few years to develop a brain that would pick those as go-to recipes... and it is not perfect, let me tell you. My thing is pizza... I intellectually know that I can make a much better meal faster than it can get here, but it is the ritual of ordering the pizza and then NOT THINKING for 30 minutes that gets me from time to time (and that is okay.)

Fourth, although I do think a healthy diet is pretty huge for me, I don't always exercise the way I should. I know I should. I used to. And I don't. I really do know all the benefits and I really would like to get with it again, and yet, on a daily basis, I choose to clean my house, sit on my porch, garden, meal plan, cook, or even just relax and post on MDC instead. It's just where I am _this year_. It's partly time but it's also mental energy.

I know I would feel really bad if friends were judging me on that. I can only handle so much in my life and this year, exercise is the one thing that's dropped. Maybe you could extend a bit of compassion to your friends that for whatever reason, cooking in a different way is not their thing this year.


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## churndash (Mar 25, 2009)

Because it's their business what they feed their children and they don't need your stamp of approval?


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom* 
Pastured and bidynamic soil are not the same thing as organic though. My eggs are free range, but they're not organic. The chickens sometimes get food that is not organic, hence the farmer can't label the eggs organic. However, they also live outside, eat bugs, have regular chicken lives, etc. Organic laying chickens might just eat organic corn in a tiny cage all day. Same with organic fruit/veg in many cases. Local farmers market has a couple people who don't or can't meet the organic requirements but their stuff is fantastic and healthy and local. I don't care if it's labelled organic.

Yes! If we are judging people and their food choices, I am going to say I worry about a huge carbon footprint. I will never understand baby carrots from CA for people 3-6k miles away (although in the past I sometimes bought them). Or 'organic' spinach (and many other veggies) from China for North Americans.

There is a giant grey area that many people don't want to consider.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *reezley* 
Convenience? I bet if there were an Annie's Organic Easy Mac they would buy it instead. I myself make the kids Annie's Shells & Cheese way too often...

there is an annies ez mac but it is still just mac and cheese. and i think the annies mac is gross. all of it. my kids refuse to eat it. kraft . . .its the cheesiest . . .

as for why, it is just easy. and they have to money to pay for the convenience. not everyone is sold on the value of organics. or even the all natural stuff. and just because they have money doesn't mean they are inclined to spend all of it on groceries. and really most people just don't think there is anything wrong with a little easy mac or chicken nuggets. their options for replacements are expensive, not always tasty and not necessarily any better. just because it comes from a health food store doesn't make it any healthier.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
It's partly time but it's also mental energy.









:
I'm like that about food right now. I do have a decent list of "go to" recipes, and mostly keep trucking. But, honestly, if dh didn't do all the weekend cooking, we'd probably be eating grilled cheese or PB&J multiple times each week. I just don't have the focus, concentration and energy to plan, shop for, and cook meals the way I know I should. Right now, in fact, I should be doing this coming week's meal plan (last week's got blown to hell when a stomach bug hit everyone except ds2 over the course of about three days)...and it just feels like too much work to think that hard...

We'll probably end up eating chicken korma (have ingredients on hand, because it was on last week's list), and something with ground beef, and use up a chunk of steak in the fridge. I cheat on veggies, by buying 1lb. packages of spring mix, so we eat a lot of salads. I have green beans and asparagus in the fridge and need to use them up. That's about as far as I can get with my brain in its current state...


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## accountclosed2 (May 28, 2007)

My parents think that organic food is a luxury, a way for people who have everything to show off. So they really can't see why we are wasting our hard-earned money on it...

People have different ideas of what is healthy. My mother has always been very into health. Her idea of healthy food is fairly low-fat (especially no "extra" fat, like cream, butter etc), low sugar (not no-sugar, she likes to have biscuits with her coffee in the afternoon), and fruit and veges. And you can eat more un-healthy food if you have just been exercising, or is willing to "work it off" tomorrow. She doesn't like cooking much, and of course she worked part-time when we were growing up, so she always stocked up on frozen pizzas, pasties, fish fingers etc. But there were always plenty of salads, raw veges etc., served with the meals and for in-between. In the weekends my father cooked everything from scratch, as he loves pottering about in the kitchen.

My mother is a teacher, and both of my parents spent almost 10 years in tertiary education.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

I buy the kraft stuff (regular size cause we don't have a microwave) because it is what she likes she doesn't like the Annies its kreft or the back to nature it MUST be with powerded cheese and "stick pasta"







I alos always have froxen chicken strips ready to bake skippy peanut butter smuckers fruit spead and plain old Corn flakes around. Why? Cause the keep me sane. We eat healthy lots of fresh fruits veggies ect but some degree of convience and no fuss foods just plain keep me sane.

Deanna


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## lucky_mia (Mar 13, 2007)

I think it is easy to judge other people when you don't always know all the facts.

I know I was being judged by another mother yesterday because of what I brought to a neighborhood cookout. I found out about the party at the last minute so I ran to the store, with two 3 year olds in tow, and got a bunch of fruit to make a fruit salad, some organic chips and salsa and some Hostess cupcakes. Why the cupcakes? With DS's food allergies, I had to make sure there was at least one goodie he could eat so I could distract him from the nut filled brownies. Normally, I would bake something but I didn't have time.

My littl guy was able to stand there and eat a "safe" cupcake with other kids and feel normal so for me, at that moment, nutrition and judgement be damned.







:


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## confustication (Mar 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Liquesce* 
Had I just made a no-context post about my son's diet at a year old people would have been appalled. But it was successfully maximize calories by whatever means possible or go down the feeding tube route. While I suppose there are some people who would prefer the tube to a lot of sugar, salt, preservatives, and whatnot, I'm not one of them. Had he been willing to sit down to boxed mac and cheese and really _eat_ I'd have been thrilled.

Life is still that way for us with my 7 yo.

I make chicken nuggets in huge batches from scratch, not only because they are healthier than the storebought things, but because chicken breast in bulk can be cheaper. Mac and cheese- if she'll eat the boxed stuff I'll usually sir in a handful of real cheese to up the caloric content if I can.

She's a twig, and sometimes food battles really *aren't* worth it. We introduced all the whole healthy things and they just didn't fly. Garbanzo beans and grape tomatoes as a quick meal? Not a chance- she'd go hungry. Sometimes getting SOME food in is all you're aiming for, even if it isn't whole grain, organic stuff.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *churndash* 
Because it's their business what they feed their children and they don't need your stamp of approval?

Yes - this! I'm having a hard time finding something non-snarky to even comment on this thread...

I've never bought EZ Mac but how is what people feed their kids your issue/problem/business? Do you want them up in your business?

I don't let my kids drink pop, but I'm not going to look down my nose at someone who does. 'Cause I let my kids listen to almost any music, and I don't want to hear why anyone thinks they are better than me 'cause their kids listen to Raffi all day. Same with vaccines or circ or daycare or any other parenting decision. We all do what we think is best based on our background, experiences, research, opinions, finances and what we are comfortable with.

Feed your kid what you deem best/necessary/affordable, and be happy with that choice.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lucky_mia* 
I think it is easy to judge other people when you don't always know all the facts.

I know I was being judged by another mother yesterday because of what I brought to a neighborhood cookout. I found out about the party at the last minute so I ran to the store, with two 3 year olds in tow, and got a bunch of fruit to make a fruit salad, some organic chips and salsa and some Hostess cupcakes. Why the cupcakes? With DS's food allergies, I had to make sure there was at least one goodie he could eat so I could distract him from the nut filled brownies. Normally, I would bake something but I didn't have time.

My littl guy was able to stand there and eat a "safe" cupcake with other kids and feel normal so for me, at that moment, nutrition and judgement be damned.







:

Maybe they were thinking "Man! Only enough Hostess cupcakes for the kids? I waaaaaaant one!" (Or maybe that's just what I would be thinking!)


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## mamatoablessing (Oct 17, 2005)

DH and I own a chain of health food stores, so I have organic groceries at my disposable everyday, at cost. But I still use convenience foods 2-3 times a week and most of the time, they're not organic. Why? Because we're busy. I work 3 days a week at our stores and one of those days, until 9pm. I don't always have the time to prepare a proper, clean meal. But so what? My kids eat healthy foods everyday, a veggie with every meal for example, but it might be served along side a chicken nugget or, *gasp* EZ Mac. Doesn't bother me a bit. Is it better to eat organic? Sure it is. But I truly don't believe packaged non-organic food is that much worse than packaged organic foods. Around the store, we tend to call Annies and the like "fauxganics". It's still junk food. And again, I'm ok with it. My family still eats very healthy.


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## momof2kiddos (Dec 24, 2008)

I like to think I am well educated and such but I feed my kids Ez-mac every now and again, they drink soda, Some days don't get all the proper things fromt he proper food groups but they are by no means starting and I don't think it has hurt them any. My kids love to get fruits and vegies and "healthy stuff" but DH and I both work full time out of the home not by choice but my need and there are nights that I would rather come come and just be able to spend time with my kids and not cook a meal from scratch. When we just toss stuff together we do try and make it healthy and all but some nights the frozen meal or the ez-mac are just what work.


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

Some friends of ours: Mom is a *pediatric endocrinologist* (of all things), dad is an engineer. Their child is, at age four, obese. She will only eat fast food / convenience food.

The mom explained to me that they are so busy (she's finishing her residency) and tired that fighting over food was just too much. So they just feed her McDonald's every night because she'll eat it without a battle.

She obviously wasn't thrilled with this, and I could tell she felt bad about it. It's clearly not ideal! But everyone does what they have to do to get through the day.... I felt sad for her and her daughter.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

Lots of things which have been pointed out already I agree with.

A lot of people have kind of a compromise/middle of the road approach too. So they want pretty healthy things most of the time, but an occasional kraft dinner or fast food is ok with them. And organic is a funny label, as many have pointed out, it can be hard to pinpoint what is really the most healthy.

I try to eat local and local organic food, but not really for health, it's an ethical/environmental issue for me.

I also think it can be bad to obsess too much about health and what we eat. As if controlling what we eat will somehow save us, keep us alive forever or allow us to avoid all health issues. Not everyone thinks this way, but I find it surprisingly common.

Personally, there are a lot of things I'd give up before a summer picnic with hotdogs on white bread buns and cream soda.


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## emmalizz (Apr 14, 2009)

.


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## JacqNS (Feb 19, 2008)

In my own life, I know people who do this because of their own upbringing. As children, they were fed convenience/non-nutritious/non-organic/etc. foods and they are okay with that. So, they chose to feed their children the same way and may think to themselves "Well, I was raised on these types of foods and I turned okay, so why shouldn't I feed my child (ren) the same way." It's an interesting type of logic, for sure.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

EZ-Mac is very expensive. It takes an upper-middle-class income to afford it!


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## Amila (Apr 4, 2006)

I edited my OP. I didn't mean to come off as classist. I think i more so wanted to focus on why someone wouldn't choose organic when they COULD, as opposed to the isolated EZ mac incident, lol. I am not a perfect parent, and my kids have definitely had mac n cheese and hotdogs.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amila* 
Can anyone help me find an explanation for this? I don't get it. DH and I have a few close friends who can afford organic, but happen to come off as pretty anti-organic.

The only things I can come up with are:

1- They ate that way growing up and are alive today argurment
2- They aren't giving in to the organic "hype"

Thoughts?

We are a family that semi-chooses not to eat organic.

The nearest "organic" store is in the city a good 35-40 miles away.

I guess I could try buying the 1x-2x more expensive organic selections on a few items at the grocery store but TBH I don't see how it will make a huge difference.

Our bodies are bombarded with pollution, irritants, toxins and chemicals everyday. I grew up in a super TF/organic household. As in made our own food from scratch and strict vegetarianism for the first 10years of my life. I know how to do it and it is very very hard to do with the lifestyle and location we have right now.

I think if we settle down a bit more that I might naturally gravitate towards it since I was raised that way.

Also, a part of it is not buying the hype. I think the organic and green label can be abused. (Think huggies natural diapers with 13% organic cotton). Or as my brother pointed out: those organic veggies are still planted in the earth. They still get the same rain. The same water. They still get packed in the same material, trucked across the state and put in the same bins.

So I buy our fresh food local at a fruit stand. And right now I don't fret the boxed food too much. Or the fast food that we have actually just spent most of the week eating, as we've been living out of a suitcase trying to move in to a new house while working fulltime and going to school full time.


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## jlobe (May 1, 2009)

I think convenience is a huge part of it, but I also think we're a generation raised on processed food and feel that cooking from scratch is alot more complicated and time consuming. For example, you can cook a chicken on the weekend and have a week of really simple meals (sandwiches, stew, curry, soup, etc.) but I think we usually start from the recipe we want and if we don't have the ingredients feel we have nothing to make. It takes a while to get in the mindset of looking at what you have and then adapting recipes to include that. And if you've worked all day and are ferrying kids to and fro and taking care of the house, it's intimidating to think about that.


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## mamatoablessing (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jlobe* 
I think convenience is a huge part of it, but I also think we're a generation raised on processed food and feel that cooking from scratch is alot more complicated and time consuming. For example, you can cook a chicken on the weekend and have a week of really simple meals (sandwiches, stew, curry, soup, etc.) but I think we usually start from the recipe we want and if we don't have the ingredients feel we have nothing to make. It takes a while to get in the mindset of looking at what you have and then adapting recipes to include that. And if you've worked all day and are ferrying kids to and fro and taking care of the house, it's intimidating to think about that.

So true! I know this is my mindset a lot of the time. If I was better at planning ahead, I'd be better at serving fresh, clean meals every night. But I'm super dedicated to the kids when I'm not working and I forget or just don't want to take the time to cook and plan for the whole week. Believe, I wish I could do it all!


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## ChinaDoll (Jul 27, 2003)

Umm, it's REALLY expensive compared to non-organic?

And not readily available to folks in many American small towns.


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## operamommy (Nov 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *churndash* 
Because it's their business what they feed their children and they don't need your stamp of approval?

This, totally!


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## lemurik (Jul 26, 2007)

I think, as somebody pointed ot in previous post, that there is a great difference between eating organic and eating healthy. I try to buy organic food and cook from scratch every meal. However, if I don't find good quality organic produce I buy the same items in a conventional store and still cook from scratch. So even if its not organic, its still home made healthy meal. I think a lot of people don't think about the environmental aspect and don't think there is a great difference nutrition vise between organic and non-organic. Sometimes its hard to find fresh organic produce when you need it and if its a choice between say no-tomatoes and non-organic-tomatoes, many people would choose non-organic than go without.


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## RunnerDuck (Sep 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amylcd* 
If we are going by taste, I would take Kraft easy mac over Annie's anyday. Annie's is bland, in my (and my kids) opinions. I have a cabinet full of it, and no one wants to eat it.

We eat a lot of organic, healthy foods... but we also eat "mainstream junk" too.

Have to admit, I think Annie's is pretty nasty. A LOT of their stuff is nasty... they make these whole wheat bunnies now, I don't know if we got a bad box or what, but they are NASTY. They taste like kinda-raw wheat thins. My son wouldn't touch them. My babies wouldn't touch them and I am not fully convinced they even have taste buds... as they eat things like dirt and dryer sheets...

The mac and cheese is just awful. And I am not convinced it is even that much healthier for you, other than coming in a box with lots of feel-good writing on it.

The powdery kind, at least... the Annies with the runny cheese is somewhat better... but still. On the whole, not a fan of Annie's products. They make those canned pastas, the stars and Arthur Os, which we have bought... but again other than the feel good label are they really all that much better for you than Spegettios?? At least they taste OK but I can buy our store brand organic Os in sauce for less money...

Sorry, huge tangent, but I am happy to see others don't like Annies!!! I wonder if they covertly make Trader Joe's mac and cheese - I find that kind of gross, too. (I have also tried the adding cheese to hot noodles - it works with parmesan and buttered noodles, but other stuff often clumps up and sits in little globs very unappealingly...)

Maybe so many people are anti-organic because a lot of what is organic is gross. Maybe it's the cost. I don't know.

But I do know that organic doesn't mean healthier, always... a couple weeks ago I made a banana pudding using organic pudding, organic vanilla wafers, and bananas, can't recalls if they were organic or not... bananas are a food I am not gung-ho on getting organic... but the pudding was between 66% and 100% organic, I guess. It was tasty! It maybe had some advantages over not using Nilla wafers - since they have HFCS and partially hydrogenated oils - I'm not sure the pudding was really THAT much better... and overall a healthier option would have been, IMO, a cheese and fruit tray, organic or not...

Non-organic does not always mean unhealthy (and therefore "bad parent.") Organic does not always mean better. Ie I would rather my kid chow down on Pepperidge Farm goldfish than Annie's chocolate bunnies (which DO taste ok but let's face it they are still sweet cookies with a feel good package...)


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## funkymamajoy (May 25, 2008)

I can only speak of my family. I won't speculate about your friends' reasons.

1. To some people organic food is the new designer jeans. An organic apple and a conventional apple look the same, but the organic one is more expensive. Just because we could afford the organic apple doesn't mean that we feel that the label is the best use of our money.

2. We live in an area with a lot of locally grown food. I feel its better to eat local then organic.

3. DH thinks organic food is full of bugs.









4. Organic certifications are confusing. I use a plant based pesticide on my garden but its not certified organic, does that mean that my garden isn't organic?.

5. Personal taste. Nothing will replace Kraft mac n cheese as my comfort food. We like hot dogs and fast food hamburgers.


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

nak
i'm glad you posed this question. i think 'organic' is a hype.

i do get most of my vegis from either my garden, my parents garden or the farmers market.

I love seeing organic produce that has been trucked across the country.


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## Agatha_Ann (Apr 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChinaDoll* 
Umm, it's REALLY expensive compared to non-organic?

And not readily available to folks in many American small towns.

Yes! The nearest organic/health food store to me is 2 hours away! I do buy organic milk at our grocery store, but its almost $7.00 a gallon! I do feel that we eat very healthy though. Our meat and eggs come from our own animals that I know are treated very well.

I do have boxes of mac n cheese in the cupboard for days when I have to keep my sanity. I still try to make it healthier though. I use milk, but skip the butter. I only use half of the "cheese" and I always add peas or spinach and then some pepper for taste. Yum!


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## RunnerDuck (Sep 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkymamajoy* 
I can only speak of my family. I won't speculate about your friends' reasons.

1. To some people organic food is the new designer jeans.

I like this analogy.

I think there is a lot of elitism attached to eating all organic... and even if there ARE benefits to it I don't think it's realistic. I don't know if I have all the facts wrong or not but... there are now a HECK of a lot of people in this country (and the world). You can grow way more food non-organically than you can organically, acre per acre, right? If all food were to be produced/grown/whatever organically... first of all would there even be enough food for everyone? And if so it would be prohibitively expensive... wouldn't it?

I don't think eating all organic all the time for all people is a realistic goal. For those who can/do it's become quite a status thing.

I mean don't get me wrong in some instances there are benefits to it - but for example if someone were to give their kid a snack, they might feel the need to say "We just had some organic ice cream" as if the organic part needed to be said. Why?


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## tinybutterfly (May 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anglyn* 

I tried researched healthy eating and there is a lot of conflicting info out there and on here. Meat is toxic, meat is vital, eat it raw. Diary is evil, drink soy, soy is evil dont drink it. And everything is contaminated. I gave up. I told dh that the only way to be safe is to grow and raise all your own food but then you have to worry about whats in your soil and water!!!!!!!

Ive decided to eat as healthy as possible, eat what we like, even the occasional trip to mcdonalds, and hope for the best.

This.

What one person thinks is healthy, another person thinks is very non-healthy.

I think there is probably plenty of wiggle room and there is not ONE correct diet that all people must eat to thrive.

We do a mixture here. I try not to stress about it.

I am one of very few people here who seems to like Annies Mac and Cheese. I like the basil and garlic kind.


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## texmati (Oct 19, 2004)

I don't think you have to eat organic to eat healthy. And I definitely don't think that just because something has 'organic' on the label that it *is* healthy.

I don't know what annie's mac and cheeze is, but if it is also a boxed powdered cheese item, then I'll say that this non organic apple I'm eating is healthier.

I do agree with a pp, that says that 'organic' is the new designer jeans. Also, isn't the term not really regulated? Anyone can slap on the label organic, and have a pretty picture of a farm on the front-- it doesnt mean that the food is any better than the store brand.


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## montlake (Mar 13, 2008)

Congrats MDC, yet another thread with sole purpose of being a "crunchier than though" ego stroke fest.


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## ChetMC (Aug 27, 2005)

I don't buy into the "organic hype," not when you can buy jumbo boxes of organic pop tarts.

I have a friend who grew up on a farm. I've been to the farm. I have no problem with the way their cattle are raised. They eat grass in the summer and hay and silage in the winter. The get antibiotics when they are sick. It doesn't bother me that some of the fence posts are made of the old school pressured treated lumber with the arsenic. I'm not eating the fence post. The cow isn't eating the fence post. The amount of grass she eats next to fence post is minimal, and it would be a waste to rip out a perfectly good fence.

I actually think that a lot of people are blindly buying organic instead of reading labels and making sensible choices. We've seen stuff at Whole Foods marked up 40% or more. The same product is available at the regular grocery store, but Whole Food shoppers are willing to pay more. There are people who just buy everything at Whole Foods and assume it's their ticket to health... I totally agree with the designer jeans analogy.

Organic can be good, but now it seems that a lot of people who are buying organic are not particularly well-informed. Personally, I think buying locally, maintaining biodiversity, and supporting generally responsible farming practices are more important, and the organic label does not necessarily mean that you're supporting any of those things. Not now that big business is into organics, and an uneducated public is buying them.

The fact of the matter is that life expectancy in the western world is double what it was a hundred years ago, and average level of education is astronomically beyond what it was a hundred years ago. Our society suffers from issues, but I think people need to battle problems like overconsumption, unbalanced diets, lack of exercise, and unsustainable farming practices before they worry about organic peaches.

I don't go out of my way to buy organic, although we do buy it sometimes. I have a list of priorities, and organic is not at the top.


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## funkymamajoy (May 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *montlake* 
Congrats MDC, yet another thread with sole purpose of being a "crunchier than though" ego stroke fest.









:


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

Quote:

When I'm too busy, there's alway things like cold garbanzo beans and grape tomatoes, which also has more nutrients than boxed mac and cheese.
Really?

I bet only one kid in a million would eat that. Hell I wouldn't eat that and I am not a picky two year old who thinks food is possibly out to get him.

I try to avoid HFCS and partially hydro'd products by baking my own stuff. But I am a huge believer that all food can be enjoyed, just some foods need to be enjoyed in moderation. Life is too short to only eat things that are exclusively good for you.

And Kraft Mac-n-Cheese is awesome-way better then Annie's.


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## ~savah~ (Aug 24, 2008)

For me the organic label is not just what it has, but also what it does not. If a product is labeled "organic" it cannot contain any GMO, and since manufacturers are not required to state whether they use GMOs it is the only way a consumer can be sure the product they are consuming is GMO free. To some that may not be a bog deal, but to me it is.Yes, both Annie's and Kraft are noodles from a box, that does not make them equally unhealthy. Kraft uses enriched flour, whereas Annie's uses whole wheat (which is probably why some people don't like it). Kraft also uses yellow 5 and yellow 6. So IMO even though they both come from a box Annie's is the healthier option.


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## RiverTam (May 29, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *texmati* 
I don't know what annie's mac and cheeze is, but if it is also a boxed powdered cheese item, then I'll say that this non organic apple I'm eating is healthier.

One isn't healthier than the other. The key is balance.

The mac and cheese is high in fat and high in carbohydrates. It also has a calcium serving. It's high in sodium.

The apple is low in fat, decent on carbohydrates and high in fiber. It has no sodium. It does not have a calcium serving.

Kids need some fat and carbohydrates in their diet. Not too much fat, but some fat is necessary. A serving of Kraft EZ-Mac is perfectly acceptable in the context of a balanced diet.


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## mamarhu (Sep 12, 2004)

My foster kids come from a background of nothing but fast food and prepared package food. They prefer the cheapest 6 for a buck mac n cheese, generic hamburger helper, and spaggettios. They prefer Tang, coke, or kool-aid to water, juice or milk, the only choices in the house. I have learned that there is a certain chemical taste (and maybe that awful orange color







) that they expect. That taste is nearly inedible to me (no snobbery here; I am overweight and simply have different vices







), but I am catching on that that is what they crave, not the mac n cheese itself. So I found a place I could buy that orange powder cheese in bulk, and I make their kind of sauce on broccoli for example. I think it's awful, but they eat.

I grow some of our own food - eggs, berries, salad and some veggies - shop locally when possible, at the produce market next, and then at the regular supermarket. I won't pay extra for organic. I just don't have the money, and it isn't that high on my priority list right now. Besides, I don't think it is really that pristine. I grow my garden "organically", but I live on a busy street, so the air must be foul, and I don't know what's in the city water or the soil. I buy in bulk in season, and preserve or freeze some items. I can my own jam and spaghetti sauce for example, but I don't dry fruit because we really only eat it fresh.

I think this fits in with Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs - first, basic quantity food needs must be met. If you have that, you then can choose taste. The luxury of choosing fresh, local, nutritious, organic, ethical, and convenient and whatever else is important to the person comes later. Price plays a role, but that is still personal - mushrooms may be worth $4/lb to me, but you wouldn't want to pay over $2. I might choose to forgo something else to buy a favorite cheese, and I might buy the kids some ice cream if it is on sale. I might buy a 20 lb bag of oranges from the guy on the side of the road, and make juice. This costs way more than buying frozen concentrate, but I like to support individuals. These are choices made for other-than-health reasons.


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## green betty (Jun 13, 2004)

I think any version of "why DON'T people deviate from the cultural mainstream and devote a disproportionate amount of their personal resources (time, money, brainpower) into doing it" is the wrong question.

If it's an issue you particularly care about, then how about, "how can we help the people in our community eat nourishing, delicious food without judging them for doing what they know" instead?

This is something I'm working on for my area. Want to eat organic produce in the winter? Then you can buy expensive frozen veggies SHIPPED FROM CHINA that don't even taste good. In the summer there are lots of local options, but they are often A) more expensive, B) require more preparation--which not everyone knows how to do, even if they have the time, and C) are largely available at the farmer's market, which is held on a weekday morning and therefore isn't really accessible for a whole lot of working people.

Because I care a lot about food--and people--I'm writing a little local foods zine with tips for the easiest, quickest, cheapest ways to incorporate local foods (some organic and all fresh) into a mainstream diet. It includes stuff like what's cheapest when, how to pack it to toss in the freezer, what to do with it when you pull it out of the freezer in February, how to make it yummy for kids, etc.

If you'd like, I'll send a copy of the first issue your way.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

I haven't read this whole thread.

But once again I am surprised by some of the negative comments.

I did think MDC was a crunchy-ish forum full of crunchy ideas.

It does always surprise me how many un-crunchy people are on here.

What could be bad about organic food~ food that is not laden with pesticides and God only knows what else......and it does confound me that people can seem to come up with so many excuses why eating SAD really isn't that bad for you/big a deal.

To me it is very surprising.

Would you eat a SAD and then be surprised when you weren't healthy/had health problems?


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## dido1 (Aug 12, 2004)

Non-organic food isn't all "crap". I grew up in a super health food conscious, home grown, organic, no junk food, carob only family. My parents were extremists with what they ate, watched, etc. I do not like the way it made my siblings and I obsessive and addictive about foods we couldn't eat, television, which we weren't allowed to watch, etc.

I also am EXTREMELY dubious about the health claims made by so many "healthy" and/or "organic" products. I don't think it's un-crunchy to question health claims of products marketed to the crunchy crowd. Just because I'm crunchy doesn't make me gullible.

I also refuse to pay $3 for an "organic" apple that was shipped thousands of miles for my eating pleasure. That's why I don't specifically buy organic. If I can find locally grown, competitively priced organic produce, I buy. Otherwise, I don't sweat it.


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## phrogger (Oct 16, 2006)

I don't buy organic because it is expensive, but also, I keep the local farmers going and our local economy going by buying just regular produce.

I live in Central CA where a large majority of the food in the US is grown. I can drive down the street and watch the tomatoes and strawberries being grown. I see the farmers pick the oranges and apples. If I am stuck breathing the air around here, reaelly what difference is it going to make if I am eatting the food grown directly here.

We don't drink milk but if we did, we would buy non hormonally altered milk, but again, it is local as well.


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## phrogger (Oct 16, 2006)

Oh, and my favorite food in the whole wide world is kraft mac and cheese.


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## lucky_mia (Mar 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom* 
Maybe they were thinking "Man! Only enough Hostess cupcakes for the kids? I waaaaaaant one!" (Or maybe that's just what I would be thinking!)

Of course I brought enough for all but I think I was the only adult who ate one.







DS is running around the house eating grape tomatoes at the moment. Not sure he would go for the gabanzo beans but knowing him, he would.

As for Annie's, you have to get the penne in the blue box, that's the good one.


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## BedHead (Mar 8, 2007)

The term 'organic' really means very little to me. I like real food, which may or may not be organic. Local food, which may or may not be organic. I buy my meat from a local farm that raises grass finished animals, which also happens to be organic. I grow a lot of my own veggies, which I'm sure could never be classified as certifiably organic, but I don't care. The fact that there are so many processed organic foods boggles my mind - it's entirely possible to eat 100% organic food and at the same time be eating 100% junk food now.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
The fact that there are so many processed organic foods boggles my mind - it's entirely possible to eat 100% organic food and at the same time be eating 100% junk food now.

Yes, and that means you can eat 100% junk food and STILL look down on other people's food choices.


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## purplemoon (Sep 24, 2008)

Well, non-organic doesn't mean unhealthy. We don't buy organic because the price. We could, but then we would buy less food and my kids eat a lot. Now, in a small town we are blessed with locally grown food and fresh free-range chicken eggs. Nothing beats a strawberry that you buy down the street that was picked at peak ripeness that day. Nothing.

We also garden. So for me, I would rather buy locally grown small farm fruit and veggies which are cheaper and more tasty (and environmentally more sound) than organic at the grocery store.

But either way, I don't think one has to buy organic. I think the only reason to do it is for the environment, but then locally grown food beats that.


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## funkymamajoy (May 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I haven't read this whole thread.

But once again I am surprised by some of the negative comments.

I did think MDC was a crunchy-ish forum full of crunchy ideas.

It does always surprise me how many un-crunchy people are on here.

What could be bad about organic food~ food that is not laden with pesticides and God only knows what else......and it does confound me that people can seem to come up with so many excuses why eating SAD really isn't that bad for you/big a deal.

To me it is very surprising.

Would you eat a SAD and then be surprised when you weren't healthy/had health problems?

I don't think anyone is arguing that organic food is bad (except for my DH and his thing about bugs) but that no one is a better parent then anyone else because they only eat organic.

Personally, I don't think the SAD is really as bad as its made out to be. IRL I've never met anyone who eats fast food, Kraft, etc every single day. I believe its possible to eat a well-balanced, healthy diet without any certified organic food.

However, I know someone who eats almost exclusively pre-packaged foods and believes that its all very healthy because its organic.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

If people haven't read Micheal Pollan's book In Defense of Food, I'd try that and then maybe drop some food, organic or not, off at your local food pantry.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Yes, and that means you can eat 100% junk food and STILL look down on other people's food choices.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkymamajoy* 
I don't think anyone is arguing that organic food is bad (except for my DH and his thing about bugs) but that no one is a better parent then anyone else because they only eat organic.

Personally, I don't think the SAD is really as bad as its made out to be. IRL I've never met anyone who eats fast food, Kraft, etc every single day. I believe its possible to eat a well-balanced, healthy diet without any certified organic food.

However, I know someone who eats almost exclusively pre-packaged foods and believes that its all very healthy because its organic.


Well, not to be argumentative, but I have _definately_ known A LOT of people only eat hot dogs, burgers, mac n cheese, bologna McDonalds etc. everyday. That's what they like, thats what they know. And it isn't healthy.

I also agree that local is good, home grown is good and of course organic pop tarts aren't health food, but if you are already going to eat pop tarts then at least there is no pesticide up in em.

I think home cooked whole foods are the optimum, I think organic is better than just whatever is at the store for the cheapest, but if there are budget restrictions then eating whole foods is your best bet organic or not.


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## purplemoon (Sep 24, 2008)

Maybe I missed a part in the OP, but I thought it was just about organic or not. Not organic vs SAD.

Many, many people eat whole foods and never touch an organic apple. But their diet seems very healthy (and is!). So is the question why would anyone choose SAD even knowing the differences?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
What could be bad about organic food~ food that is not laden with pesticides and God only knows what else......and it does confound me that people can seem to come up with so many excuses why eating SAD really isn't that bad for you/big a deal.

I haven't noticed those posts. People are saying that some occasional junk food is okay. That's not the same thing as saying eating the SAD really isn't bad for you. SAD is a whole way of eating, not an occasional quick treat.

As for organics...the only "organics aren't that great" comments I'm seeing here are with respect to organic processed foods. Boxed mac and cheese is boxed mac and cheese. I'm sure Annies and the ilk leave out some truly nasty stuff that's in KD (which I do like, sadly)...but that doesn't make them healthy. They're still highly processed convenience foods. Being healthier than Kraft mac and cheese doesn't mean it's healthy.

And, the organics thing is _way_ over-simplified. As many posters have pointed out, a lot of organic produce comes from China. Does it make that much sense to avoid pesticides, but to simultaneously increase pollution by shipping food from China to North America?

I don't do that much organic. I'm thinking of switching to organic milk (our conventional milk is hormone free, though)...but it's very close to twice the cost, and I don't know if we can swing that. I don't do organic meat, because it's just too much money, and we eat a lot of meat...neither dh nor ds1 are going to stop doing that. I buy organic, free range eggs, and I try to buy organic strawberries, and local, organic apples. I'm far from doing as well as I plan to eventually, but I do pay attention to whether food is organic and where it comes from...and try to shop organic for the "dirty dozen"....when I can remember what they are. *sigh*

However, I have five people in my family, all with different tastes, and shopping is complicated enough. There's only so much time, energy and money available to put into this right now. I try to at least know what I'm doing, and not fool myself that I'm buying something healthy when I'm buying junk. If I buy organic snack foods, I see it as a lesser of two evils thing, not a "I'm feeding my family the best" thing.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkymamajoy* 
Personally, I don't think the SAD is really as bad as its made out to be. IRL I've never met anyone who eats fast food, Kraft, etc every single day. I believe its possible to eat a well-balanced, healthy diet without any certified organic food.

I know a couple of people who eat that way. They eat some real meat, and some eggs (all conventional - no stones, as my meat is mostly conventional, too)...but pretty much everything else they eat comes in a box. Oh - and a bit of fruit, almost all bananas.

Try to find that photo essay about what the world eats, and look at the two American families. They definitely eat the SAD, just as it's widely portrayed.


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## phrogger (Oct 16, 2006)

What in the world is SAD??


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

Standard American Diet.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phrogger* 
What in the world is SAD??

Standard American Diet.


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## ~savah~ (Aug 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
Well, not to be argumentative, but I have _definately_ known A LOT of people only eat hot dogs, burgers, mac n cheese, bologna McDonalds etc. everyday. That's what they like, thats what they know. And it isn't healthy.

I also agree that local is good, home grown is good and of course organic pop tarts aren't health food, but if you are already going to eat pop tarts then at least there is no pesticide up in em.

I think home cooked whole foods are the optimum, I think organic is better than just whatever is at the store for the cheapest, but if there are budget restrictions then eating whole foods is your best bet organic or not.

In addition to less pesticides they also have less HFCS, trans fats, food coloring, enriched flour, GMOs and artificial ingredients.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I did think MDC was a crunchy-ish forum full of crunchy ideas.

It does always surprise me how many un-crunchy people are on here.

I don't think there is anything "un-crunchy" about realizing people do things differently and might still be good people trying to do the best they can for their children even though they don't feed them all organic food.


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## mamatoablessing (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I don't think there is anything "un-crunchy" about realizing people do things differently and might still be good people trying to do the best they can for their children even though they don't feed them all organic food.

Amen.

Remember the magazine is called "Mothering" not "Eating". Some of us parent in crunchy ways but don't live a 100% natural lifestyle.


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## confustication (Mar 18, 2006)

We eat what we have time and energy to prepare. I love our natural foods store, but it's an hour away, and easily 3x more expensive than any other produce. We don't eat a lot of meat. We have a huge garden so we can grow a lot of our own food, and we raise chickens for their eggs, and we generally try to be aware of what we eat.

That doesn't mean, however, that someone's not going to come in some night to find a frozen pizza being devoured (on paper plates!) or the occasional mac and cheese.

It really *isn't* that big a deal to eat less than ideal foods sometimes, as long as we make an effort most of the time to eat a good variety of healthy foods.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

I don't think it is anyone's business. I certainly would not judge anyone based on the consumption of organic or non-organic food. Life is too short.


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## amandaleigh37 (Jul 13, 2006)

I haven't read the responses but isn't it entirely possible to eat HEALTHY without buying all organic? We make most meals from scratch, avoid HFCS and processed/pre-packaged foods, eat lots of fruits & veggies... but I rarely buy "organic" anything.


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## Delicateflower (Feb 1, 2009)

I don't eat organic or feed my family organic. It is a very calculated decision.

I amd all about sustainable living, and organic is, to be honest a buzzword that doesn't mean anything about how environmentally sound the growing practices were.

Take herbicides, for example. A single pass with glyphosate to knock down weeds and give your crop a head start in a no-till regime is better than five passes of tilling (especially with a tractor). And yet the high tillage regime that trashes the soil and the local waterways gets the organic label while the no-till does not.

And what is desirable about factory farmed cows being fed organic soybeans to be sold as organic meat and beef, compared to cows living normal lives, supplemented in the winter with (gasp) non-organic feed?


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *montlake* 
Congrats MDC, yet another thread with sole purpose of being a "crunchier than though" ego stroke fest.


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## stealthmode (Dec 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Delicateflower* 
I don't eat organic or feed my family organic. It is a very calculated decision.

I amd all about sustainable living, and organic is, to be honest a buzzword that doesn't mean anything about how environmentally sound the growing practices were.

Take herbicides, for example. A single pass with glyphosate to knock down weeds and give your crop a head start in a no-till regime is better than five passes of tilling (especially with a tractor). And yet the high tillage regime that trashes the soil and the local waterways gets the organic label while the no-till does not.

And what is desirable about factory farmed cows being fed organic soybeans to be sold as organic meat and beef, compared to cows living normal lives, supplemented in the winter with (gasp) non-organic feed?

This, a thousand times. "Organic" does not always mean what we think it means, and it is not always the best option. There was a great grouping of articles in Mother Jones magazine recently about this very thing. I have to say it was some of the most enlightening journalism I've ever come across.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Delicateflower* 
I don't eat organic or feed my family organic. It is a very calculated decision.

So is this like an organic boycott of sorts, or do you just mean you don't go out of your way to buy organic?


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## radosti (May 16, 2008)

I buy organic when it's convenient. Both TJ's and Whole Foods are 35 mins away from our house, across the street from each other. We shop at a well-stocked non-chain supermarket that buys local produce when it can, and does stock some organic. I go for local first and foremost. Our milk, while not organic, comes from a local farm, and I can see the happy cows out at pasture every day.

We also shop a lot at Costco. I buy the organic eggs there... they are cheaper there and the chickens are treated better. But if I see a huge container of show-stoppingly gorgeous strawberries at Costco, I will buy them, same with other fruit/veggies.

My 3.5 year old has gradually cut out all healthy food from his diet. He's down to EZ Mac and chicken nuggets now. He will not touch Annie's, so I bought EZ Mac out of desperation. On days that I serve him healthier food, he basically survives on milk. Yesterday, I served Trader Joe's tri-color tortellini and he ate like it was going out of style. I'll have to pick more up. The only veggie he'll eat are grape tomatoes, so if he's eating chicken nuggets, I am just happy tomatoes are going in as well.

The 1 year old eats most things now, but he is essentially a meat eater... something his brother never was. We barely eat meat around here, so it's something I need to start making more often. My hope right now is that he might hold on to his healthy food likes.

I insist on organic for my dogs and cats. But mainly my reasons for that is that the organic dog and cat commercial diets are a lot cleaner than the super-market petfood variety. The nasty stuff that goes into the regular purina and friskies is horrible, like blood stained wood shavings swept up off the floor and added as a fiber source. We avoided the whole pet food recall issue with melamine. So, it's worth it to me.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

Lack of local availability- Not all stores carry a selection of organic foods.

Cost- even people with good jobs might have a limited grocery budget or not feel justified spending more

Convenience- not just fast preparation, but easier to find

Preference- some people have a distinct preference for a particular brand or way a food is made

Priority- The priority might be simply to get food into their family. They may not consider the organic label as important as that.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

I don't buy into the "organic hype," not when you can buy jumbo boxes of organic pop tarts.








reminded me of last summer when we spent a few days with my SIL and her kids both she and her DH are doctors and are always talking about how they only buy organic.. The entire time we were there the kids (all 6) diet consisted of
Annies chocolate bunny crackers and organic whole milk (eatten like cereal)
organic slices of bread from whole foods smothered in honey
peanutbutter eatten from the jars
organic pop tarts
popcorn lots of popcorn









Deanna


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I generally value local over organic.


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
I generally value local over organic.

Same here.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I also agree that local is good, home grown is good and of course organic pop tarts aren't health food, but if you are already going to eat pop tarts then at least there is no pesticide up in em.

Considering how little fruit is actually in pop tarts, I'd say that is one of the products not work buying organic.


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by sisteeesmama
I haven't read this whole thread.

But once again I am surprised by some of the negative comments.

I did think MDC was a crunchy-ish forum full of crunchy ideas.

It does always surprise me how many un-crunchy people are on here
How do you define "un-crunchy"?
Can you really call a person "un-crunchy" based on their opinions on one subject?


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amylcd* 
How do you define "un-crunchy"?
Can you really call a person "un-crunchy" based on their opinions on one subject?

I am getting a kick out of how the organic snobs are being out-crunchied by the locavores and by DelicateFlower's wonderfully mindful posts.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I haven't read this whole thread.

But once again I am surprised by some of the negative comments.

I did think MDC was a crunchy-ish forum full of crunchy ideas.

It does always surprise me how many un-crunchy people are on here.

What could be bad about organic food~ food that is not laden with pesticides and God only knows what else......and it does confound me that people can seem to come up with so many excuses why eating SAD really isn't that bad for you/big a deal.

To me it is very surprising.

Would you eat a SAD and then be surprised when you weren't healthy/had health problems?

I don't know about this - organic vs not labled organic hardly says much else about what people eat.

There are a few things an organic lable can tell a person. On the other hand, it's quite possible to grow legally "organic" food in a factory farm-unsustainable-unethical way. Most of the organic produce available here in winter comes from factory farms in California, Mexico, or China, just like the other stuff. I try to keep to the turnip and carrots produced nearby, although they have no organic lable.

The farm I buy most of our meat products from has an eco-system model of farming. They use many rare breeds, they butcher themselves so there is no shipping stress, they are committed to good pasture management and real organic principles of feeding the soil, they don't routinely give drugs to livestock and they encourage/allow natural animal behaviors, they grow their animal feeds on site for the most part barring bad harvests But, they aren't certified organic.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

There are hundred or thousands of reasons why everyone does not "go organic".

I suppose I can speak for only myself...

1. I like to eat locally when possible; lots of local food is organic.
2. I don't trust the label "organic". This term does not seem to necessarily equal what I look for in an ingredient. I especially don't trust the "organic" items I find at the larger food stores (which is all my city has). But even at the store, I don't take it for granted that the things labeled as organic ARE actually organic, or have been handled in a way to keep them that way, etc. And I strongly suspect many things are labeled this way and are not actually organic.
3. It's expensive.

I would love to walk into a local store with local, organic, fresh food, where I trusted that it actually WAS organic, and knew where it came from, etc. But that's not the reality I'm living in.


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## PaigeC (Nov 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RunnerDuck* 
I think there is a lot of elitism attached to eating all organic... and even if there ARE benefits to it I don't think it's realistic. I don't know if I have all the facts wrong or not but... there are now a HECK of a lot of people in this country (and the world). You can grow way more food non-organically than you can organically, acre per acre, right? If all food were to be produced/grown/whatever organically... first of all would there even be enough food for everyone? And if so it would be prohibitively expensive... wouldn't it?

I have to admit that I am also shocked by some of the comments in this thread (the one above is just an example I'll talk about in a second, not singling RunnerDuck out). And it isn't just a "crunchier than thou" designer-jeans organic "hype."

If I had to choose between an organic apple shipped from China or a non-organic apple (assuming I don't know the specific farming practices like I might at a farmers market) I would *definitely choose the organic*! And I respectfully submit, financial considerations aside, that you should too!

Children fed non-organic food show 6 to 9 times as much toxins in their bodies and children fed organic food: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3076638/ increasing their risk of bone and brain cancer, neuroblastoma and childhood leukemia.

The idea that the environmental impact of the long drive of organic produce somehow negates the health benefits is also false. Fossil fuels are used in huge amounts in industrialized farming practices.

Quote:

large quantities of fossil energy based fertilizers are major sources of nutrient enhancement of agricultural soils throughout the world. Pesticides are also fossil based and their production and use imply a significant consumption of fossil energy. *Annual world pesticide use has been estimated at 2.5 million metric tons*, of which 0.6 million metric tons are used in North America.

Quote:

For some major crops like corn, crop rotations have been abandoned. Now nearly 50 percent of U. S. corn land is grown continuously as a monoculture. This has caused an increase in the number of corn pests and the need for more pesticides to protect the crop. *Since 1945 the use of synthetic pesticides in the U. S. has grown 33-fold, yet crop losses to pests continue to increase*.

Quote:

Currently worldwide there is serious degradation of land, water, and biological resources generated by the increasing use of fossil energy by the world's population. Already, more fossil energy is used than is available in the form of a sustainable supply of biomass, more nitrogen fertilizer is used per year than could be obtained by natural supply, water is pumped out of underground reservoirs at a higher rate than it is recharged, and more minerals are taken out of mines than are formed by biogeochemical cycles. Fossil energy and technology enabled humans to (temporarily) sustain excesses. *At present and projected world population levels, the current pattern of human development is not ecologically sustainable.* The world economic system is built on depleting, as fast as possible, the very natural resources on which human survival depends.
source: http://dieoff.org/page69.htm

In response to the pp quoted at the top, the opposite is true. If we don't adopt sustainable (including organic methods) farming we will not be able to feed the world population. This site is good and has some good graphs resources: http://www.theglobaleducationproject...d-and-soil.php

A study from Cornell found that yield of organic crops equalled that of conventional farming with a decreased use of energy and pesticides. source: http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/...other.ssl.html

In addition to the health problems and energy consumption, we have decreased biodiversity (we've went from relying on 80,000 species to 150) and conventional farming degrades the land by removing topsoil

Quote:

It takes approximately 500 years to replace 25 millimeters (1 inch) of topsoil lost to erosion. The minimal soil depth for agricultural production is 150 millimeters. From this perspective, productive fertile soil is a nonrenewable, endangered ecosystem.
source:http://egj.lib.uidaho.edu/egj09/piment1.htm

We can't afford _not_ to support organic farming (if we can at all afford it - I understand that many people have neither the funds or access to this type of product). I tell my friends that I give to the charity of organic/sustainable farming through my grocery budget instead of giving to x charity directly. Of course local organic is better than shipped from China and many local farms (I'm in Ohio) are not "certified organic" but still have sustainable practices, so my point isn't to trust the organic label explicitly.

To the OP - I think this thread, filled with the wonderful, intelligent MDC mamas answers your question perfectly.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *betsyj* 
I bet only one kid in a million would eat that. .

My kids love chick peas, and both of them count tomatoes among their favorite foods. I've served chick peas as a snack during playdates and seen lots of kids gobble them up.







:

Would they rather have boxed mac-n-cheese? Maybe. But lots of kids I know will enjoy chick peas and tomatoes.


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

Quote:

If I had to choose between an organic apple shipped from China or a non-organic apple (assuming I don't know the specific farming practices like I might at a farmers market) I would definitely choose the organic! And I respectfully submit, financial considerations aside, that you should too!
I would never buy food (or anything else) shipped from China. I would buy local, or go without until I could find it grown locally.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I have to admit that I'm hestitant about MIC organics, largely because there have been _so_ many quality control scandals coming out of China. I have my doubts about how accurate the organic label even is, yk?

I buy some organic, and as I said, I try to avoid the "dirty dozen" in conventional foods as much as I can. (I do cave on strawberries sometimes, though - we eat a lot of them...and sometimes the conventional ones are in better shape. I know I should just forgo the berries when there aren't good organic ones...but I haven't been able to bring myself to do that very often.)

I buy some organic, partly to reduce the toxin load in the bodies of my family, but also to support organic farming, in general. I buy local for two reasons, as well - to cut down on food shipping, and to support local farmers. If I _never_ buy, I'm cutting down on the economic viability of those farming techniques, imo.

That said...I really need to get a garden plot going, too. We have nowhere to put one here, but I could probably borrow a piece of my mom's yard...


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## rebeccalynn (Jul 21, 2006)

I am not "anti-organic" but I think that there is a lot of organic bs & hype. Honestly, I focus more on 1) eating healthy/unprocessed foods, 2) eating a balanced diet, 3) eating locally grown, and 4) eat organic fruit & veggies for the "dirty dozen" IF we can afford it that week.

We try to cut our exposure to harmful chemicals where we can but honestly I do not have enough hours in the day to avoid every known source - it is everywhere .... in the air we breath, the water that waters our garden, our clothes, homes, cars, everything that we own. We have picked a level of avoidance that where we can still live a happy life as a family and with others.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I have to admit that I'm hestitant about MIC organics, largely because there have been _so_ many quality control scandals coming out of China. I have my doubts about how accurate the organic label even is, yk?

I have to admit that I too am very skeptical about "organic" food from China. Have never bought it.


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## BunniMummi (Jan 28, 2005)

I'm not anti organic, but I'm against judging something as good or better simply because of the label.

Shipping takes a huge toll on the environment and should never be discounted in terms of how "good" something is for you personally or the earth in general. Here in Norway I see a lot of organic fruits and veg in the bigger stores near me but I know that they haven't come from anywhere even close to local are often in miserable shape by the time they show up on the shelves here.

In addition I would choose non organic eggs that I know come from a responsible freerange source over the mass produced "organic" eggs I can buy in the store here that I know are coming out of exactly the same living conditions as their regular eggs but with different feed tossed into the bins. The same pretty much goes for meats as well.

I guess I just don't think that the organic label actually means everything that many people would like to associate with the idea of food thats better for you, the animal and the planet. Just as not every consumer can afford to buy organic, not every environmentally friendly responsible grower/producer out there can afford to check every box that is required to becoming officially organic. And sometimes quite frankly as several of the pps have brought up, the tradeoff isn't worth it anyway. Just because something isn't labeled organic doesn't mean it's coated in poison or that the person buying it doesn't care about their family.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Unless they have really studied it, most people don't understand it.

A lot of people think that only the overprotective freaky tree huggers are buying organic, and they don't want to appear "freaky, tree huggerish".

They haven't given in to the hype yet???

Jillian Michaels has a new book out called "mastering your metabolism" and she talks about organic foods (and houshold/body products) in a way that even a nontree hugger would appreciate.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Different people have different priorities for their budgets. When you say people could "afford" to buy organic, what does that mean? Where I live, buying all organic would double my grocery budget easily.

I could "afford" to buy all organic, but I'd prefer to send my kids to college.


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## teale (Feb 20, 2009)

See, and I have friends on the other side of spectrum that are so PRO-organic that it's borderline obnoxious. These people push it to the point where I know others have felt that they are crappy parents when they don't buy organic. And really, buying organic does not make you a good parent. I get the idea of it, I understand why organic is better, but I also think you have to do what works best for your family.

For us, organic 100% of the time would mean that we wouldn't be able to afford other necessities. I buy specific things organically (veggies or fruits that absorb chemicals more, like potatoes etc), and other things like bananas or oranges, I buy non-organic. For a family who doesn't have a ton of money, buying organic 100% of the time, is just not plausible.

The other thing I do, is read labels. I don't buy things that have a list a mile long of ingredients that are not necessary. I try to buy all natural products/organic products for DS, and in the summer, I scope out the farmer markets for local produce.

It's all about priorities. For us, having enough food to feed DS and ourselves trumps buying all organic products. We have a good balance, and it works.

Quote:

Where I live, buying all organic would double my grocery budget easily.

I could "afford" to buy all organic, but I'd prefer to send my kids to college.
Yeah, I'm curious where you shop? Our organic sections in our grocery stores here are limited, and to top that, they are way overpriced. For instance, I can get a LB of banana's for .78 or less in the non-organic section. Organic bananas? At LEAST $2-3 a LB. DS eats bananas like they are going out of style, so to have to buy as many as I do, I'd end up with mainly bananas in our produce budget, and not much else. Other items like yogurt, and such, I can get a pack of yogurt, sweetened with natural fruit juice for 5 bucks, and there are 12 decent sized containers in them. The organic stuff? I can get a small container for $5, or 4 tiny containers for $4. Again, this is a staple in our house, and if I bought the organic ones, we'd easily be paying $15 + a week for yogurt alone!

It's not cheap to buy organically, and I think it stinks that some people think that those who don't buy organically are ignorant. We try to do it, but we have to balance things out, and as much as I would LOVE to buy all organically, it's just not plausible for us.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

I definitely prefer local (produce, meat, cheese) to supermarket organic. Our first stop each week is the farmer's market. I've talked a lot with the vendors there, and I know many of them avoid chemical pesticides, but are not officially "organic" because of the cost of organic certification.

For things we don't get at the farmer's market, the question of organic or not depends on the item. Dd has severe food allergies, so we generally do not feed her any animal products that contain antibiotics. In many cases, this means buying organic, but not only--Applegate Farms, for instance, has antibiotic-free, hormone-free turkey breast that is 2/3 of the price of the certified organic of the same brand. We buy organic cheese, because she eats a ton of it, but not organic milk (which is more than twice the price), because she consumes only very small amounts (a splash in her oatmeal, milk in occasional baked treats, etc.). Most produce we buy organic, but not things like bananas, where she's not eating the skin and there are lower levels of pesticide residue.

We certainly do get plenty of "health food" that isn't so healthy! A cookie made with brown rice syrup is healthier than one made with HFCS, but it's certainly not a health food.

But I think that, if you strip the value judgement implicit in the OP as regards to parenting, she does raise a valid point: why do Americans eat so many foods (and often in great quantities or with great frequency) when we KNOW that they're bad for us? I think there are a lot of reasons--convenience, flavor, habit, cost--but it is sometimes amazing to me that many people (including myself, at times) knowingly fill their bodies with junk.


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## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom* 
Different people have different priorities for their budgets. When you say people could "afford" to buy organic, what does that mean? Where I live, buying all organic would double my grocery budget easily.

I could "afford" to buy all organic, but I'd prefer to send my kids to college.

I've only read the first and last page of this thread, but I agree with this. I could afford to buy all organic, but then my food bill would go from $1,000 to $2,000 a month (we eat tons of fruits and meat and organic is at least double the price). That would be $1,000 that i would not be putting in the kids 529 plans.

Plus, I am not sold that organic is really that much better for you. And like others mentioned on the first page, I like convenience foods. I work full time and when I get home, I don't want to spend a long time cooking. I'd rather have that time to play with the kids.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom* 
Different people have different priorities for their budgets. When you say people could "afford" to buy organic, what does that mean? Where I live, buying all organic would double my grocery budget easily.

I could "afford" to buy all organic, but I'd prefer to send my kids to college.

I think it would be more than double for us. Most produce is pretty close to double, and so is dairy. But, meat is more than double - quite a bit more. I still want to buy more organic, pastured meat...but it's going to be very gradual for a while.

The other thing I find with meat is that the really good stuff (free range, organic) is never available in bulk sizing, so I don't get discounts there, either. I've been thinking about buying half a cow, but I really don't know if we have freezer space for that much meat...and it would leave us with nowhere to put chicken, fish or pork...


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Delicateflower* 
I don't eat organic or feed my family organic. It is a very calculated decision.

I amd all about sustainable living, and organic is, to be honest a buzzword that doesn't mean anything about how environmentally sound the growing practices were.

Take herbicides, for example. A single pass with glyphosate to knock down weeds and give your crop a head start in a no-till regime is better than five passes of tilling (especially with a tractor). And yet the high tillage regime that trashes the soil and the local waterways gets the organic label while the no-till does not.

And what is desirable about factory farmed cows being fed organic soybeans to be sold as organic meat and beef, compared to cows living normal lives, supplemented in the winter with (gasp) non-organic feed?


I do agree with all of this, it's really good info, too!


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Considering how little fruit is actually in pop tarts, I'd say that is one of the products not work buying organic.

It's not just about the fruit, it's about the wheat and stuff also.

I guess what you're saying is why not go all the way if you're gonna eat junk. But to me I would want to shave out the ick anyway I could, here and there.


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## celestialdreamer (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PaigeC* 
I have to admit that I am also shocked by some of the comments in this thread (the one above is just an example I'll talk about in a second, not singling RunnerDuck out). And it isn't just a "crunchier than thou" designer-jeans organic "hype."

If I had to choose between an organic apple shipped from China or a non-organic apple (assuming I don't know the specific farming practices like I might at a farmers market) I would *definitely choose the organic*! And I respectfully submit, financial considerations aside, that you should too!

Children fed non-organic food show 6 to 9 times as much toxins in their bodies and children fed organic food: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3076638/ increasing their risk of bone and brain cancer, neuroblastoma and childhood leukemia.

The idea that the environmental impact of the long drive of organic produce somehow negates the health benefits is also false. Fossil fuels are used in huge amounts in industrialized farming practices.

source: http://dieoff.org/page69.htm

In response to the pp quoted at the top, the opposite is true. If we don't adopt sustainable (including organic methods) farming we will not be able to feed the world population. This site is good and has some good graphs resources: http://www.theglobaleducationproject...d-and-soil.php

A study from Cornell found that yield of organic crops equalled that of conventional farming with a decreased use of energy and pesticides. source: http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/...other.ssl.html

In addition to the health problems and energy consumption, we have decreased biodiversity (we've went from relying on 80,000 species to 150) and conventional farming degrades the land by removing topsoil
source:http://egj.lib.uidaho.edu/egj09/piment1.htm

We can't afford _not_ to support organic farming (if we can at all afford it - I understand that many people have neither the funds or access to this type of product). I tell my friends that I give to the charity of organic/sustainable farming through my grocery budget instead of giving to x charity directly. Of course local organic is better than shipped from China and many local farms (I'm in Ohio) are not "certified organic" but still have sustainable practices, so my point isn't to trust the organic label explicitly.

To the OP - I think this thread, filled with the wonderful, intelligent MDC mamas answers your question perfectly.


I agree with this post very much, except the organic produce from China. I personally choose to buy local as much as possible and then organic before buying non-organic. There *are* many health benefits to eating organic and I'm actually surprised at MDC that there are still so many people that disagree with this. I totally get not being able to afford organics, we live on a low income for our family size. If you truly can't afford them, then you do the best you can. But to pretend that there isn't a difference between items grown with numerous pesticides and possibly genetically modified and even possibly irradiated... and items that are grown organically? Even if they are mainstream organics? Really? Definitely local organic is best IMO, but I guess most people aren't willing to eat seasonally.

Flame me if you want, but I find it frustrating when people pay for cable, processed food, eating out, extra consumeristic crap and then say "oh I can't afford to buy organic food". If you buy organic processed items, well then yeah the cost would be pretty high. I live in a high cost of living area and frankly we qualify (but do not use them) for food stamps. We eat probably 90% organic and/or local foods because it is a priority to us. Yes, we almost never eat out or buy processed foods because we feel that we cannot afford them financially and physically. We choose to not buy much, we don't have cable, we buy in bulk whenever possible and eat seasonally. Buying organic bulk items is more expensive than buying non-organic bulk items...but in most places it is about the same cost or even cheaper than buying processed stuff.

I guess I just come from a different mindset...I think almost all packaged foods are not a good idea. Even organic ones. Unfortunately we live in a society that spending time to actually cook whole foods seems like a luxury or a waste of time.

This a hot button topic for me, I'll get off my soapbox now


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
I am getting a kick out of how the organic snobs are being out-crunchied by the locavores and by DelicateFlower's wonderfully mindful posts.

I guess I am an organic snob. To me it's pretty sad that if you buy organic mindfully and talk about organics in a good way you are labeled an elitist or a snob.
I like the idea of local, in fact can't wait for my CSA to start in the next two weeks and the farmers mkt next week......but I will be talking to the farmers about what's organic there, too. I don't just blindly buy whatever they have there and if it tastes great but is not organic I will buy it but talk to the farmers about trying organic.

We do grow our own and our garden is looking great, but if I am at the store I am looking for organic produce AND local produce and the things that haven't traveled very far, our WF labels where things are from.

I don't buy meat unless I know where it is from out of respect for the humane treatment of animals and I like to know what they are being fed as well.

I don't feel snobby about it, I feel great about it, I know I am doing the best things I can for my fam and for animals and for the environment. It's not the easy route and I do shop lots of places and even <GASP> spend more sometimes, but to me it is worth it.

And about the uncrunchiness comment I made earlier.
I feel like defending not caring about what you eat is silly (and yes, some people did say it's just not important to them) and I don't feel bad about feeling that way. If you do care, are consciencious and put thought into what you are doing then I wasn't refferring to you anyway so don't worry about it!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *celestialdreamer* 
Flame me if you want, but I find it frustrating when people pay for cable, processed food, eating out, extra consumeristic crap and then say "oh I can't afford to buy organic food".

I pay for cable (not sure why as we don't use it). If I got rid of the cable, I could use that money to switch _maybe_ three meals a month to organic meat.

In any case, you can find it as frustrating as you want, but there's no requirement that every single person make organic food their number one priority. The "consumeristic crap" that dh and I buy is limited to 2-3 Christmas gifts per child per year, one birthday gift per child per yearand the very occasional purchase of furniture/household items to replace the old, worn out ones we currently own. (I've had some of my furniture since I was a kid, and got it secondhand then.) We eat out about 3X a year. We do buy some processed food, but it's a very small part of our grocery budget (mostly odds and ends - condiments and dressings and such). Boxed mac and cheese is a fraction of the price of making my own, although I mostly don't buy the boxed stuff, anymore.

Where we do spend quite a bit of money is on other things...swimming lessons for dd and ds2, preschool for ds2 next year (I need to get him out of the house a few hours a week, so I can get on track with dd's homeschooling...but he'll be homeschooled the following year), memberships at the Aquarium and Science Center, various activity fees for ds1 (gymnastics fee, entry fee for championships, uniform fees, cleats for Ultimate, choir field trip - $230, etc. etc.), school supplies and school fees for ds1. I'm sorry if it frustrates people that those things are a higher priority for us than eating all organic, but I don't get why anybody else cares. I drive about 250 miles per month, usually. DH commutes by bike (and had to buy a new one unexpectedly a year or so ago, because his got totaled). Some things just cost a lot of money.

For that matter, I'd probably spend a little more than we do on organics, if it were entirely up to me. But, it's not. It's dh's money, too, and we already spend a lot on groceries. There are things that are a high priority for him, too.


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## Liquesce (Nov 4, 2006)

In the end, everyone just kind of needs to chill out about what everyone else is eating and why. I go back to what I first said: different people have different ideas about what constitues a reasonable diet. As well illustrated by this thread. No one is winning any converts by expounding upon why their way is awesome and that which differs is destroying us all.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
It's not the easy route and I do shop lots of places and even <GASP> spend more sometimes, but to me it is worth it.

I think the "<GASP>" is part of why people talk about organic snobs, to be honest.

Quote:

I feel like defending not caring about what you eat is silly (and yes, some people did say it's just not important to them) and I don't feel bad about feeling that way.
I don't see how saying something isn't important to you is "defending" not caring about it. If you don't care, you don't care. I know people who are _really_ negative about anyone buying anything organic. Heck - I get ribbed, because I eat dark chocolate (usually Lindt, because I like it best, although I do make a point of buying some free trade, organic, as well), instead of buying Snickers or Mars off the shelf at the cashier. And, I've also been accused of being a snob, because I like dark chocolate and quality dark coffee better than the usual stuff. So, yeah...I'd say those people are defending, or least defensive about, their choices. But, I can't be bothered getting bent. I try to support more ethical choices, with at least some of my grocery dollars...but I can't be bothered to worry about what choices other people are making.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom* 
Maybe they were thinking "Man! Only enough Hostess cupcakes for the kids? I waaaaaaant one!" (Or maybe that's just what I would be thinking!)









I'd be







that they were Hostess which aren't veggie instead of one of the veggie varieties. (But would get over it quickly because of the nutty brownies!)


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## Just My Opinion (Nov 26, 2008)

Why in the world would I give a flying toot what other people feed their kids?? I am far to ego-centric and consumed by the workings of my own life and family to give a tiger's toenail about whether Sally's food is organic or not, or even healthy or not.









Geez, do people really need the little green 'organic' label on their foods to convince themselves they are good mothers?

Guess what? I am a great mother even when my kid is eating <gasp!> <faint> get the smelling salts, boxed mac and cheese. 

Only a privledged (primarily western) mindset would have enough time to mull over what other families eat.

These "because it is worth it to me!" statements are eye-roll worthy but I will just stop here...lol


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I like the idea of local, in fact can't wait for my CSA to start in the next two weeks and the farmers mkt next week......but I will be talking to the farmers about what's organic there, too. I don't just blindly buy whatever they have there and if it tastes great but is not organic I will buy it but talk to the farmers about trying organic.

Please do talk to the farmers! As I said above, a great deal of local/farmer's market/CSA-type food is not "certified" organic but grown without the use of chemical pesticides. Getting organic certification is extremely expensive, and many small farms can't afford to do it, despite their growing practices.


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## sunny*pa*mom (Mar 28, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
Why in the world would I give a flying toot what other people feed their kids??

Well, non-sustainable agriculture methods do affect all of us - our air quality, our watersheds, soil erosion, the ability of wildlife to survive.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

I think I'm done with this thread, I probably shouldn't have gotten into it to begin with because I have had tastes of the popular opinion about organic/local/standard before on MDC and it had always turned out the same~
The majority, just like IRL, prefer not to be bothered, don't care, are not convinced, can't afford to do better, think it's snobby/elitist to buy quality food, think local is waaay better than anything else or don't think there is anything wrong with standard foods etc.
Also, I know now that MDC does not mean crunchy and if you happen to be crunchy on MDC it's unrelated to MDC as a whole!

So I won't join these food-related conversations again as they seem to go nowhere, have a great day everyone!


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

I think I should get the uber-crunchy award for trusting my local farmer's word over the word of "the man" (aka the USDA).


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## Just My Opinion (Nov 26, 2008)

Yes, and of course the best way to get people to change their habits is to judge, berate, lecture, and look down on them on internet forums









Local is far better for the environment than "organic" (who's standards are both lax and largely unregulated).

Are you seriously telling me the environmental impact of Annie's Cheddar Bunnies is far less than like, goldfish crackers? Maybe insofar as how the actual wheat is grown -- but the packaging/factory emissions/gas to travel/machines to process and package etc is all the same.

Unless organic foods are packaged by kittens and shipped in magical planes that run on love.

We prefer local to "organic".

As far as "crunchy" goes, I don't need validation of my "crunchiness" from anyone







.

It is not snobby or elitist to want to eat healthy. We eat extremely healthy. Having the privilege of being able to purchase a $4 head of organic lettuce from 1200 miles away in the middle of winter, (as an example) yes, is extremely elitist. Judging the way others choose to feed their families without truly being in their lives and truly knowing their unique situations, finances and reasoning, yes, is very elitist.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
Unless organic foods are packaged by kittens and shipped in magical planes that run on love.


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## jlobe (May 1, 2009)

I haven't read all the posts, but just wanted to say that I think few people can argue the benefits of the "spirit" of organic food. Food produced without pesticides, GMO crops, chemical preservatives, etc. I think the objection comes in the "marketing" of organic food. High cost processed food, or food brought from long distances, upper end supermarkets, etc. For myself and my family (single income) we work in the spirit of organics which means I buy organic flour (not certified) from a local farmer in 50lb bags. I buy grass fed chickens (organic grass, not certified etc.) for things I can't buy locally
(like sugar) I buy organic, and try to limit my consumption of it. I do this not because these things are organic, but because I want to leave a smaller footprint on the earth, I want farmers all over the world to be paid fairly for the food they produce, and I want my families exposure to pesticides, GMO's limited.

Having said that I get frustrated with companies that market organic food aggressively and promote health benefits that may be better than non-organic industrialized produced food, but not by much, and not better than a diet of carefully sourced whole foods. And who charge and incredibly high price for that purpose.







:


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## stealthmode (Dec 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I think I should get the uber-crunchy award for trusting my local farmer's word over the word of "the man" (aka the USDA).


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## amynbebes (Aug 28, 2008)

I haven't read a whole lot of the responses but for us it's a combo of convenience and affordability. We buy our fruits and veggies at the local market and attempt to feed the kids healthy food from the grocery store.


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## KSLaura (Jan 22, 2007)

We buy/prepare organic when possible, but being a 2-working parent family (not by choice) sometimes this is pretty difficult. Convienience almost always trumps organic in our house.

We do use http://www.doortodoororganics.com/ though. Its great! Local, organic food delivered right to my door! We also have milk/dairy delivered. This augments are Kraft 'Mac E Cheese' quite nicely!


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KSLaura* 
We do use http://www.doortodoororganics.com/ though. Its great! Local, organic food delivered right to my door!









Thank you! I've signed up for a similar program in my area. (I hope they'll deliver here, my neighborhood is very much lower income.)


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## Mandynee22 (Nov 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frontierpsych* 
a lot of people are convinced that their kids just won't like healthy food so why bother trying? It's not an attitude I get, honestly.


I don't think too many people think that way- well, I'm sure lots do actually but I doubt it would be a "no organic" argument. It might be a "no healthy food" one.
There are lots of things that lots of people make and feed their kids that is healthy to most people and not organic. How about most of the produce at the grocery store? Most of the meat? Most of the pasta. Most of the... everything. There's more stuff available that isn't organic besides ding dongs and twizzlers.


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## mama_mojo (Jun 5, 2005)

I am a parent who chooses not to eat her family, even though they are locally and organically grown.







(Look at the subject)

Mostly, I agree with everything Tigerchild said. Local is what I pull my soapbox out for, so the packaged crackers would already be a "problem" for me, and I would be bringing my own homemade, local, organic snack with enough to share if it helped ease the way.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I guess I am an organic snob. To me it's pretty sad that if you buy organic mindfully and talk about organics in a good way you are labeled an elitist or a snob.
I like the idea of local, in fact can't wait for my CSA to start in the next two weeks and the farmers mkt next week......but I will be talking to the farmers about what's organic there, too. I don't just blindly buy whatever they have there and if it tastes great but is not organic I will buy it but talk to the farmers about trying organic.

We do grow our own and our garden is looking great, but if I am at the store I am looking for organic produce AND local produce and the things that haven't traveled very far, our WF labels where things are from.

I don't buy meat unless I know where it is from out of respect for the humane treatment of animals and I like to know what they are being fed as well.

I don't feel snobby about it, I feel great about it, I know I am doing the best things I can for my fam and for animals and for the environment. It's not the easy route and I do shop lots of places and even <GASP> spend more sometimes, but to me it is worth it.

Just so you know, lots of farmers at farmer's markets won't have the organic label purely because it costs them too much to have their farm certified, even if they do farm organically. Or they'll do something like DelicateFlower described and now can't label organic, even though it's pesticide-free and more trustworthy than "organics" shipped from China.

Also, Whole Foods once upon a time used the local organic suppliers listed on their walls. But they oftentimes don't anymore, because they've moved to a central buying system for the entire set of stores across the country instead. Don't take it for granted that the farm on the wall is actually where the stuff you're buying is from. Just FYI.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

I havent read the whole thread, but to reply to the op, I do not feed my family only organic food and we can afford it. Our family eats "clean" (there is a book about it, basically good quality fruits, veggies, and lean meats) and I just buy whatever looks the best for the cheapest. If it turns out to be organic, great, if not, I don't really care. One reason though that someone may choose not to have ANY organic food is because they just prefer to spend that extra money (not that it is really that much) on something else.


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## annethcz (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChinaDoll* 
Umm, it's REALLY expensive compared to non-organic?

And not readily available to folks in many American small towns.

I think this is also important to note. There is a tendancy amongst many people at MDC to assume that everyone lives in a large city with many shopping options. For those who live in rural areas, there isn't as big of a selection. I live in the country. There are probably 8-10 grocery stores in a 20 mile radius of my home, and NONE of them carry organic food. It's not a matter of organics being more expensive, or there being a limited selection. The stores simply don't carry any organics. If I want to buy organic food of any sort, I need to drive to a bigger store in a further away city. Travelling 60 miles roundtrip a couple times/week to buy organic produce is not what I would call "crunchy."

OTOH, in my area, I think every small town has a meat market that sells locally-grown meat. The animals come from 'smaller' farming operations that are more likely to pasture their animals. Larger or factory farms are more likely to sell their animals to large meatpacking companies. There are also a multitude of farm stands and the like. I think it is far more ecologically sound for me to buy sweet corn from the back of a local farmer's truck than it is for me to drive 50 miles to the nearest natural foods store in order to get organic sweet corn that was shipper from who knows where.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Delicateflower* 
I don't eat organic or feed my family organic. It is a very calculated decision.

I amd all about sustainable living, and organic is, to be honest a buzzword that doesn't mean anything about how environmentally sound the growing practices were.

Take herbicides, for example. A single pass with glyphosate to knock down weeds and give your crop a head start in a no-till regime is better than five passes of tilling (especially with a tractor). And yet the high tillage regime that trashes the soil and the local waterways gets the organic label while the no-till does not.

And what is desirable about factory farmed cows being fed organic soybeans to be sold as organic meat and beef, compared to cows living normal lives, supplemented in the winter with (gasp) non-organic feed?

I agree with much of what you said here. I do have concerns about Roundup, but when I weigh those concerns against the very real need for tilling organic fields and the erosion that results, it's hard to know what the *right* answer is.

I do understand why people get so involved in the organic debate, because sustainable farming practices affect everyone the same way factory emissions affect everyone. Of course, in a perfect world, it would be easy for farmers to farm in a sustainable way. But it's not a perfect world, so each of us has to make the best decisions we can given our individual circumstances.


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## confustication (Mar 18, 2006)

It amazes me that people can get so bent out of shape over whether or not there are little green stickers on the food that goes on their table.

Do we all know it's best to avoid excessive chemicals on our foods, but even food you grow yourself in the backyard garden isn't 'organic'.

Local foods are great, and totally workable year round if you freeze or can, most small producers do limit the chemicals they use (if they use any at all) and you can get a lot of information by talking to folks at your local farmer's market about what approaches they use. We do have a producer locally who uses every chemical under the sun, and we have another who is loathe to even weed the garden because they want to do everything with as little impact as possible.

If eating 'organic' foods is important to you and to your family, that's wonderful, more power to you! But it isn't necessarily the only correct way to live. That's the great thing about being an adult- we get to choose what works for us, and what works for our family.

Both the person putting together a great organic meal and taking the time to do that, and the person tossing some mac and cheese and a sliced cucumber on the table after a long day at work deserve our support as mothers. Why choose to let what someone else is eating be an issue?


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I think I should get the uber-crunchy award for trusting my local farmer's word over the word of "the man" (aka the USDA).









I think I should get the uber crunchy award for having most of these "organic" foods growing in my backyard.









Oh wait, I forgot... I'm totally "un-crunchy", you know, if you judge me based on my opinions on this thread.


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## PaigeC (Nov 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunny*pa*mom* 
Well, non-sustainable agriculture methods do affect all of us - our air quality, our watersheds, soil erosion, the ability of wildlife to survive.

Thank you for saying this! We all share the planet and in that respect I think that what your neighbor eats is important. I'm not saying go over shake your finger and condemn them. I would approach it as I approach not vaccinating - sharing information in a caring way and backing off when it is asked.

I've never had anyone refer to my non-vaxing as snobby here on MDC or the fact that I use disposable diapers and un-crunchy, I wonder why food brings up this division?


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## PaigeC (Nov 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
Local is far better for the environment than "organic" (who's standards are both lax and largely unregulated).

Do you mean to say that something with an "organic" *label* from the USDA is not better for the environment than local?

Because truly organically grown (whether they pay for the certification or not) is indisputably better for the environment.

I don't think any of us should be labelling each other. However, MDC is about correcting myths that exist in the mainstream (right?) and there are several misconceptions about the environmental and health costs of industrial agriculture. That's all I wanted to contribute.

All mamas who weigh these issues deserve kudos because for each one of us isn't there 30+ other mamas who never considered not vaxing, not circing, cloth diapering, babywearing, extended bfing, cosleeping...etc?


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## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

I haven't read the whole thread, but I used to do almost all organic, but it just got too expensive. I now do locally grown. It is nice to meet the people who grow my food and to know that it is much fresher then something that has been transported half-way across the country.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

When one feels so strongly about an important issue it is sometimes hard to understand different choices. But it is simply a matter of priorities, preferences, and palettes.

For *me*, my food shopping habits are one of the last things I am willing to budge on. I find other ways to tighten our spending. I fully recognize that even though we don't have a lot, I still come from a place of privilege to be able to make these choices.

Other people need to spend their money in other places, or it is simply not a hot-button issue for them. That's just how it goes.

I try to be careful not to judge. One lost job, or one family crisis, and I could be shopping the sales at the cheapest place in town.


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## lucky_mia (Mar 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *confustication* 

Both the person putting together a great organic meal and taking the time to do that, and the person tossing some mac and cheese and a sliced cucumber on the table after a long day at work deserve our support as mothers. Why choose to let what someone else is eating be an issue?









Thank you - some days I am the former, some days the latter.


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
Yes, and of course the best way to get people to change their habits is to judge, berate, lecture, and look down on them on internet forums









Local is far better for the environment than "organic" (who's standards are both lax and largely unregulated).

Are you seriously telling me the environmental impact of Annie's Cheddar Bunnies is far less than like, goldfish crackers? Maybe insofar as how the actual wheat is grown -- but the packaging/factory emissions/gas to travel/machines to process and package etc is all the same.

Unless organic foods are packaged by kittens and shipped in magical planes that run on love.

We prefer local to "organic".

As far as "crunchy" goes, I don't need validation of my "crunchiness" from anyone







.

It is not snobby or elitist to want to eat healthy. We eat extremely healthy. Having the privilege of being able to purchase a $4 head of organic lettuce from 1200 miles away in the middle of winter, (as an example) yes, is extremely elitist. Judging the way others choose to feed their families without truly being in their lives and truly knowing their unique situations, finances and reasoning, yes, is very elitist.

bwahahahahah @ packaging kitties and love planes!!!

ita with everything else you said too. my nerves will not take reading this entire thread. who cares what someone eats and why, really? oh, my, oh my...the judgement. over someone eating easy mac. omg. im embarrassed at the venom getting spouted over this nonsense. i tell people in know in life to come check out the forums, but i swear, i need to tell them to be wary of the judgementalism and superiority and crunchier than thou attitudes that crop up around here.








we get some stuff organic, like milk and eggs, but i really go for locally grown fresh food over fresh organic. it's much cheaper, and local is way better for the enviroment than organic. it helps our local farmers and economy, and it tastes better, too. and you'd be surprised at how much of your local stuff is almost organic/minimally treated, or totally organic, but they don't want to go thru the hassle of certification. my in laws sell organic blueberries, never a drop of pesticide in 20 yrs, but they would have to jump thru some serious hoops to be able get that little green sticker to put on their little crop, so they just tell folks they don't/haven't used anything on the fruit.

it's great if you have access to a farmer's market, and you can actually ask the sellers about the foods they sell.


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## jjawm (Jun 17, 2007)

I choose not to eat much organic, but that doesn't mean that I feed my kids junk. We buy almost no processed food. I even make my own crackers. We use whole wheat when we make our own breads and pastas. I grow many of my own vegetables (organic). We eat lots of fruits and veggies.

From what I've read on this post, people seem to think non-organic = junk. That is so not true. We stay away from food dyes, HFCS, and preservatives. I feel good about what we eat. We don't do organic because I don't think it's worth the added cost. I wonder about how much regulation goes into it. "Organic" super-pasturized crapy milk? I do drink raw milk and free range eggs, because I believe those do have more nutrition.

I wash our fruits and veggies and do what we can. The money we save by buying conventional allows us to eat more fruits and vegetables and less processed foods.


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## jeanine123 (Jan 7, 2005)

I'm just happy the kiddo is being fed. In this economy, that's not such an easy thing.


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## rhiandmoi (Apr 28, 2006)

I can afford to buy organic, but in many cases I will chose a conventionally produced product. I work in production agriculture, so I am familiar with many of the producers and will buy based on how well I like a producer and their practices over whether or not they are organic. Many conventional producers that I work with are excellent stewards of the land and I have no problem buying their products.

ETA: Sustainability is a completely separate issue from organic. Production Organic is not necessarily more sustainable than Production Conventional.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *confustication* 
Both the person putting together a great organic meal and taking the time to do that, and the person tossing some mac and cheese and a sliced cucumber on the table after a long day at work deserve our support as mothers. Why choose to let what someone else is eating be an issue?

Right, and it should also be remembered that it could easily be the other way around -- one person could be taking the time to put together a great, healthy (but non-organic) meal, and another person could be tossing some (organic) mac and cheese and a sliced (organic) cucumber on the table after a long day at work. And both still deserve our support as mothers.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

I'd like to point out, with regard to the impact of shipping and producing orgainic foods with fossil fuels as opposed to local foods produced with fossil fuel based fertilizers - environmental impact is not the only issue. Food security is also impacted, and that isn't something that can be easily "calculated" into some kind of equation or trade-off. If agricultural land ends up under condos, it's pretty much gone, and if big ag buys all the farms, we have a lot less say in what we eat.


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## rhiandmoi (Apr 28, 2006)

Remember also that it takes 3 years to convert conventional land to organic, so a lot new organic land used to be virgin land. Not only does that mean bringing new acres into production, but it means bringing water, roads, electricity, and other infrastructure into formerly virgin areas.


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## teale (Feb 20, 2009)

Quote:

Judging the way others choose to feed their families without truly being in their lives and truly knowing their unique situations, finances and reasoning, yes, is very elitist.
This!

Also, since when did it mean if I don't buy organically (and BTW, I don't have cable, THANKYOUVERYMUCH), that I automatically feed my family processed crap? I mean, really. We simply can't afford to buy 100% organic. We found a balance that works, and I think that every family should do the same.

Even if some people buy a small percentage of organic, that's a step in the right direction!

But this obnoxious "organic or die" attitude is exhausting. Do what's best for your family, and leave the rest of us non-organic/partially organic heathens alone


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## ChinaDoll (Jul 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *celestialdreamer* 

Flame me if you want, but I find it frustrating when people pay for cable, processed food, eating out, extra consumeristic crap and then say "oh I can't afford to buy organic food". If you buy organic processed items, well then yeah the cost would be pretty high.

Yeah, but what if you've already cut all of that out of your budget and STILL can't afford organic? Is it ok to eat crap then? I mean, rice, beans, chicken, fresh fruits and eggs aren't really crap, but they aren't organic; I just can't afford it. Really.

I guess I could if I were willing to go back to work and stick my kids in the YMCA childcare afterschool/summer programs instead of homeschooling, but that thought turns my stomach almost as badly as I imagine NOT eating organic turns yours. Truth is, most families only have so much money, so they make the absolute best choices they can ... and just agree to deal with the fallout.


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## isaoma (Dec 6, 2006)

I don't want to add fuel to the fodder, but I wanted to try try and clarify what I think is an issue. No one ever set up an operational definition for organic versus non-organic.

To me, "organic" is not what comes certified from the USDA. When I shop at the farmer's market, I don't look for the "organic" certification, but when I talk to the producers I get to know their practices and that's good enough for me. I refuse to give the power of what is called "organic" to the gov't. - it's just a short cut word to imply what I believe food production should be. I think many people feel the same way.

I don't think we should set up a false dichotomy between those of us who buy mainly organic versus local (non-certified).

The same thing goes for meat, eggs & dairy production. I consider the meat and eggs we buy 'organic.' But technically they are pastured, non-hormone fed and do not receive antibiotics. But they aren't certified. KWIM?

Lot's of people say 'organic' as a short cut for their food practices, especially, in my case with family members that aren't as particular about food sources. I have many friends that eat "organic" per se, but not in the literal sense that many posters have assumed.

For the record though, I wouldn't freak out if my dd had a regular pop-tart, but if they were a part of her diet (they are not..), I would definitely buy the organic counter-part. I don't let her have trans-fats or HFCS as a regular part of her diet: http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...ct_id=10789574

versus an organic counter-part: http://www.amazon.com/Natures-Path-O...f=pd_sim_gro_2

For the pop-tarts, it not the 'organic' label that would sway me from not choosing the regular pop-tarts, but the non-food ingredients.


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## lucky_mia (Mar 13, 2007)

Where do you all live that you can get so many local items? I can get local food in the summer and local eggs but am I missing something? Where I can find local food year-round in New England?


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## Rivka5 (Jul 13, 2005)

I'm not going to weigh in on the main topic, but I have to say that my next-door neighbors gave us a big care package of food when my son was born, and it included a box of organic cherry-pomegranate pop-tarts, and they were GOOOOOD.







:


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## jeanine123 (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lucky_mia* 
Where do you all live that you can get so many local items? I can get local food in the summer and local eggs but am I missing something? Where I can find local food year-round in New England?

I live in CA so we are able to have year round farmer's markets here. Try typing in the type of food you're looking for, like pastured eggs, grass fed beef, etc into Google or a similar search engine along with your city/area.


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## jlobe (May 1, 2009)

I live in Winnipeg.... really short growing season....
My answer is I freeze. I can some stuff too but it has taken me awhile to get into that. I freeze tomatoes, corn, beans, peas, kale, swiss chard raspberries, blueberries, strawberries, etc. I also have a cold room and put away onions, garlic, potatoes, squash, beets, pumpkin/squash and carrots. Flour, eggs and meat I get from local farmers.


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## isaoma (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lucky_mia* 
Where do you all live that you can get so many local items? I can get local food in the summer and local eggs but am I missing something? Where I can find local food year-round in New England?

We live in New Mexico. Yes, we can get local eggs, fruits & veggies locally year round if you eat seasonally at our co-op, year round CSAs and year round farmer's markets. We don't eat foods exclusively from our area, but we do our best.

I don't know anything about food production in New England, have you checked out these websites:

http://www.localharvest.org/

http://www.eatwild.com/


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lucky_mia* 
Where do you all live that you can get so many local items? I can get local food in the summer and local eggs but am I missing something? Where I can find local food year-round in New England?


I'm in Maine so I feel you. Though I will say that more year round CSA's are coming online up here but the reality is once the growing season is over it is hard to find year round produce. What is available is costly. I have access to meat, eggs and milk year round that is local but produce not so much. So yeah location can be a challenge to getting local food year round.

Shay


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shayinme* 
I'm in Maine so I feel you. Though I will say that more year round CSA's are coming online up here but the reality is once the growing season is over it is hard to find year round produce. What is available is costly. I have access to meat, eggs and milk year round that is local but produce not so much. So yeah location can be a challenge to getting local food year round.

Shay

sure can. Our FM here in Boston has been open for three weeks, but there is not much produce yet beyond lettuce, radishes, some greens, and greenhouse grown tomatoes and strawberries.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *isaoma* 
I don't want to add fuel to the fodder, but I wanted to try try and clarify what I think is an issue. No one ever set up an operational definition for organic versus non-organic.

To me, "organic" is not what comes certified from the USDA. When I shop at the farmer's market, I don't look for the "organic" certification, but when I talk to the producers I get to know their practices and that's good enough for me. I refuse to give the power of what is called "organic" to the gov't. - it's just a short cut word to imply what I believe food production should be. I think many people feel the same way.

I don't think we should set up a false dichotomy between those of us who buy mainly organic versus local (non-certified).

The same thing goes for meat, eggs & dairy production. I consider the meat and eggs we buy 'organic.' But technically they are pastured, non-hormone fed and do not receive antibiotics. But they aren't certified. KWIM?

Lot's of people say 'organic' as a short cut for their food practices, especially, in my case with family members that aren't as particular about food sources. I have many friends that eat "organic" per se, but not in the literal sense that many posters have assumed.

For the record though, I wouldn't freak out if my dd had a regular pop-tart, but if they were a part of her diet (they are not..), I would definitely buy the organic counter-part. I don't let her have trans-fats or HFCS as a regular part of her diet: http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...ct_id=10789574

versus an organic counter-part: http://www.amazon.com/Natures-Path-O...f=pd_sim_gro_2

For the pop-tarts, it not the 'organic' label that would sway me from not choosing the regular pop-tarts, but the non-food ingredients.


I am still officially stepped out of this conversation, but this post was BRILLIANT and I had to say hat I agree 1000% and couldn't have/didn't say it better myself, thank you Isaoma!


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Before I came to MDC I was a crunchy person. Now apparently I am a godless heathen because I don't tow the party line.

I guess I can live with that.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

I am not someone who would enjoy a regular pop-tart (just tastes nasty to me), so they aren't something I would buy for my kids, except every once in a while. BUT, I did find a big box of the Nature's Path Organic pop tarts mentioned at my local Big Lots and they were actually fairly decent tasting. No icky stuff in them like red 40 that makes me ill. Yeah, they are not whole foods and are still processed 'junk' food but a ton better tasting and better health-wise than kellogs pop tarts or the generic versions.

That's all I have to add to this discussion







as someone who prefers organics for many items, but is not someone who only buys organic, and obviously not one of those people who thinks organic food is just a hype.







I agree, it's about the ingredients, not the label.


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## teale (Feb 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rightkindofme* 
Before I came to MDC I was a crunchy person. Now apparently I am a godless heathen because I don't tow the party line.

I guess I can live with that.

Hee! You made me laugh







Should we start our own tribe???


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## happyhats (Jun 23, 2008)

I didn't read all of the replies on this thread, but here are some of my ideas. Sorry if they've been repeated.

I feel like organic is one option amongst many. For environmental and health reasons I prefer to shop locally instead of organic, I think that the food is freshest and it helps the earth a lot more. Also, quite a few small farms practice organic methods but aren't certified. Also, if I'm going to eat processed foods I don't think it's usually THAT much healthier to eat organic mac and cheese, or organic oreos. That's just me, and it's not necessarily true for those specific items. I prefer to read labels, and if the cheaper item is similar I go for that item. Of course, I am a much lower income person than upper middle class. I can't say if I would choose more organic options, or would shop differently if I had more money because I never really have.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happyhats* 
Also, if I'm going to eat processed foods I don't think it's usually THAT much healthier to eat organic mac and cheese, or organic oreos. That's just me, and it's not necessarily true for those specific items. I prefer to read labels, and if the cheaper item is similar I go for that item.

For processed foods, I read labels too rather than looking for organics. If the non-organic item is cheaper and doesn't have anything I find unacceptable like partially hydrogenated oil, HFCS, or artificial flavors, I often just go with it. Whole Foods has some store brand items that are not organic but that don't have any of the ingredients I try to avoid, and they are generally quite a bit less expensive than the organic version.

ETA - saving money this way allows me to be able to pay a premium for local products like humanely raised beef and pork.


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## Pirate Nicole (Oct 20, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MtBikeLover* 
I've only read the first and last page of this thread, but I agree with this. I could afford to buy all organic, but then my food bill would go from $1,000 to $2,000 a month (we eat tons of fruits and meat and organic is at least double the price). That would be $1,000 that i would not be putting in the kids 529 plans.

Plus, I am not sold that organic is really that much better for you. And like others mentioned on the first page, I like convenience foods. I work full time and when I get home, I don't want to spend a long time cooking. I'd rather have that time to play with the kids.


I'm sorry, did I read this right? You spend $1000/month on groceries? From your siggy, it looks like you've only got 2 kids. You spend almost as much on your groceries as we spend on our mortgage. lol.

To just jump in on this thread....We don't buy organic anything really. Mostly b/c of the cost. It's ridiculous that they can expect the normal working family to be able to afford most of those prices. I do garden, so that helps out on the produce bill a bit during the summer months. I need to expand it though. DH isn't too excited about all the extra work of digging out/fencing in more yard for me though, so that will likely be another year or two. We do eat pretty healthily though. Try to 'eat out of a box' at most 1x/week. I have to save my sanity somehow! I do the best I can with what I have. There are many days the three kiddos and I only see dh for an hour or two/day. I do cook from scratch most of the time, but again, there's only so much time and patience in a day. One thing that I would love to get organic though is milk. We go through 2+ gallons every week. With regular milk being $1.89, and the organic being well over $4 in most places, it's just not going to happen right now.

Nicole
mom to three awesome kids.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

I only read the first 3 pages....

I am wondering why non-organic automatically= crap food.







We don't eat organic because we can't afford it but we also don't sit around eating hamburger helper all day everyday.

As for the great organic debate in all honesty most of the time it _is_ hype. Organic does not equal healthier in boxed foods. I don't understand people who buy it thinking that it does more so than people who by conventional boxed foods. With regards to produce "organic" standards are still pretty poor.

I'm far more concerned with eating whole local seasonal foods than something with an organic sticker. Just isn't as reliable as folks seem to think nor does "organic" hold the monopoly on healthful foods.

I feel the same way about organic as I do about those eco friendly light bulbs. Yeah they are all well and good but really what is best for the planet is turning off your darn light just like what is best for your body is not buying the prepackaged foods organic or no.







It's just the current fad.


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