# You tell me why I should continue being an ap parent...



## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Okay, I've been awake since 3am. Again. It's been like this, really since he was born. I went with ap parenting because it seemed to me to be the kindest form of parenting. Child-led. Which, at the time (pre-child), seemed to fit into our personalities anyway. We co-sleep. We nurse and fought to do so as Bay was a preemie and in the hospital for a month at birth and on oxygen, etc.). We don't spank. We don't "talk down too" or "yell". I am a sahm. Baylor is a high needs baby and has been since day 1. He has gotten better, but night is a big issue. I'm working on a week of nursing all freakin' night and I'm freakin' tired as I've not really slept since he was born. He's 22 months folks. I've been thrown off of main stream boards because I'm such an ap advocate. I mean when is the big freakin' pay off here? I'm beginning to think that unless Baylor grows up to be president or something it will not pay off at all and he'll be lucky if I have a grain of sanity left by the time he finally has to get off me and go to school or something. My only source of support is this board, I would like to think. And, for ME, it's really NO support at all. No one seems to want to hear or understand my issues. I get a few web-hugs per post and not much more. I'm sooooo grateful for those mama's who DO reply with advice and please don't think I'm not. But, in general, I feel like Mothering isn't here for me. I'm not a poplular girl at this site. I'm the one doing cartwheels in the outfield or something. I think maybe many of you fear me because ap IS NOT WORKING for our child, for us, and that idea isn't acceptable here. Now I fear my son is to old to be trained or taught any other lessons and I'm destined to die from exhaustion or something. For me this board is usually a slap in the face due to my "shortcomings" as a mother or something. Tell me why I should stay. Tell me why AP should work for us.


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## greenluv (Jul 26, 2002)

Ok, I'm thinking this is less about the need to do it "the right AP way" and more about your need to do what works for YOU.

There is nothing saying you can't take the bits and pieces of AP that DO work and leave those that don't, finding a comfortable balance.

Personally, I'm not 100% AP myself, and I would think we're in good company.

SO, what's keeping you anchored to strict AP?


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greenluv*
.

SO, what's keeping you anchored to strict AP?

**Maybe the idea that if I "give in" a bit I'll totally fall off the ap wagon, lock my son in his own room w/ a big glass of milk and let him have a good long and well-earned cry!







:

Or maybe that I do believe in the core premis of ap'ing! I think it's the best way to parent. I just never thought I'd have this personality-type baby! I WANT to be able to parent this way. My son just doesn't seem to work this way. My husband and I are very ap type people thru and thru.... we've just been given a baby with dictatorship qualities! ugh.


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Can I assume you've read Raising Your Spirited Child? High needs kids really need lots MORE from their parents than other kids. I know. I have 2. And I did fell like I was going insane until the youngest hit about age 5.

Raising your Spirited Child and How to Talk so Kids Will Listen really helped me a lot.

And I started getting sitters when each kid (I have 3 ) were about 2 1/2 yrs. Once a week during the day so I could have a couple hrs of me time for my ravaged sanity.

Once every 2 mos or so on a Sat late afternoon so dh and I could get away.


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

edamommy, I don't think that there is one way to parent the "right" way for anyone. My ds#2 was the same way your ds is as far as not sleeping and being high needs.

I think 22 months old is old enough to set some limits on nursing if it's making you resentful/run down/touched out/or any other feeling that is negative and counterproductive to your relationship with your son. PM me if you want to talk some more about this.

"
**Maybe the idea that if I "give in" a bit I'll totally fall off the ap wagon, lock my son in his own room w/ a big glass of milk and let him have a good long and well-earned cry! "

I have experienced the all or nothing feelings that you have been going through REPEATEDLY and at different times with all of my children. I have an ideal that I strive for and I also have areas that I plan on never going to (such as spanking), but the rest is a gray area that I muttle through every day just trying to do the best I can. Some days are great and others...well they are not so great.

My babyjust pooped up her back, so I need to go deal with that.







:LOL

I will be back.

Oh and off topic, but trying to get you to laugh with me:
"I'm the one doing cartwheels in the outfield or something"
That's a great description.


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## Night Owl (Mar 31, 2003)

Quote:

Now I fear my son is to old to be trained or taught any other lessons and I'm destined to die from exhaustion or something.
I'd just like to say that it may feel this way sometimes, but "this too shall pass." My ds co-slept and nursed and we thought we'd never get him in his own bed. He is four now and loves sleeping in his own bed. Kids go through a lot of different phases, and it seems like when you just get to the point where you're going to pull all your hair out, they get past it. At least, it seems that way on the other side of the phase. lol

Hope that bit of perspective helps.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaryLLL*
Can I assume you've read Raising Your Spirited Child? High needs kids really need lots MORE from their parents than other kids. I know. I have 2. And I did fell like I was going insane until the youngest hit about age 5.

Raising your Spirited Child and How to Talk so Kids Will Listen really helped me a lot.

And I started getting sitters when each kid (I have 3 ) were about 2 1/2 yrs. Once a week during the day so I could have a couple hrs of me time for my ravaged sanity.

Once every 2 mos or so on a Sat late afternoon so dh and I could get away.

I've read that book- but he's not a spirited child- he's a HIGH NEEDS CHILD. Two different etities altogether!







Dr. Sears wrote a great book on high needs babies/kids and it's been my bible really. I'm afraid if I left him with a sitter they'd NEVER come back!! really! But, we're starting to leave him for bits of time with relatives (they have to come back, right?)


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Night Owl*
I'd just like to say that it may feel this way sometimes, but "this too shall pass." My ds co-slept and nursed and we thought we'd never get him in his own bed. He is four now and loves sleeping in his own bed. Kids go through a lot of different phases, and it seems like when you just get to the point where you're going to pull all your hair out, they get past it. At least, it seems that way on the other side of the phase. lol

Hope that bit of perspective helps.









..."this too shall pass"... so ---- sick----- of ----- hearing----- that!!

sorry.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaOui*
edamommy, I don't think that there is one way to parent the "right" way for anyone. My ds#2 was the same way your ds is as far as not sleeping and being high needs.

I think 22 months old is old enough to set some limits on nursing if it's making you resentful/run down/touched out/or any other feeling that is negative and counterproductive to your relationship with your son. PM me if you want to talk some more about this.

"
**Maybe the idea that if I "give in" a bit I'll totally fall off the ap wagon, lock my son in his own room w/ a big glass of milk and let him have a good long and well-earned cry! "

I have experienced the all or nothing feelings that you have been going through REPEATEDLY and at different times with all of my children. I have an ideal that I strive for and I also have areas that I plan on never going to (such as spanking), but the rest is a gray area that I muttle through every day just trying to do the best I can. Some days are great and others...well they are not so great.

My babyjust pooped up her back, so I need to go deal with that.







:LOL

I will be back.

Oh and off topic, but trying to get you to laugh with me:
"I'm the one doing cartwheels in the outfield or something"
That's a great description.

**Thank you Kerry. I appreciate your words! Yes, I know I should be setting limits. One thing is that I cannot stand the sound of him crying. Maybe because for his first 10 months or so that's all he did. 24 hours a day 7 days a week. really. All day and all night. I would go 3+ days without sleeping and listening to him cry. No one could figure out what his problem was accept that he was collicky and high needs. He finally went to a chiropractor and that really stopped his constant crying.But, due to the fact that I endured those months and months of constant screaming the sound of his crying voice is honestly like getting stabbed repeatidly in the face with a dull knife. So, my quandry is how do I night wean him without enduring the crying.... which he does at the drop of a freaking hat?


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Hm, I always think of high needs and spirited as being synonyms.

from amazon:

Quote:

The spirited child--often called "difficult" or "strong-willed"--
can easily overwhelm parents, leaving them feeling frustrated and inadequate. Spirited kids are, in fact, simply "more"--by temperament, they are more intense, sensitive, perceptive, persistent, and uncomfortable with change than the average child. Through vivid examples and a refreshingly positive viewpoint, Mary Sheedy Kurcinka offers parents emotional support and proven strategies for handling their spirited child. Raising Your Spirited Child will help you:

* Understand your child's--and your own--temperamental traits
* Plan for success with a simple four-step program
* Discover the power of positive--rather than negative--labels
* Cope with tantrums and blowups when they do occur
* Develop strategies for handling mealtimes, *bedtimes*, holidays, school and many other situations

Filled with personal insight and authorative advice, Raising Your Spirited Child can help make parenting the joy it should be, rather than the trial it can be.


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## Wilhemina (Dec 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaOui*
I think 22 months old is old enough to set some limits on nursing if it's making you resentful/run down/touched out/or any other feeling that is negative and counterproductive to your relationship with your son. PM me if you want to talk some more about this.



I agree with this. I can share how I did this with dd1, if it would help you.


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## tinybutterfly (May 31, 2004)

22 months is still really young, especially with a high needs child. I had one...he is now a wonderful 16 year old.







I hear you on the no sleep, the nursing marathons, the high energy and I'll bet he can throw some impressive tantrums. BTDT. It is hard and sometimes people who haven't had a chilld like this can't understand what you are going through.

I didn't do everything just right...I tried...and at some point, if what I was doing wasn't working, I tweaked things a bit. I had to do what worked best for my son and me. I learned he needed more structure and predictablity than I had been providing. He needed to know ahead of time what was coming up next. I learned to go places and do things when HE would be at his most relaxed and well rested. I napped when he napped...and he only took little catnaps. He didn't sleep through the night until he was between 2 1/2 or 3. I tried new things and yes, I made some mistakes. But through being a bit flexible and treating the AP concept as a buffet, I took what worked for my particular child and tailored it to meet his needs.

My second child was completely different. So different. Easy. A breeze after what I had gone through the first time. His tempermant was just different. I will say, though, now at 10 he is making up for lost time.









I would say just look at what you have been doing that is working. Keep that. Look at what isn't working and find out what other options there are that are acceptable to you and your family. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Don't give up. Now here comes the cyber-hug.









P.S. Have you read the books about parenting high needs children? I think Dr. Sears has one. I can't remember. But I do know, I found them very helpful. It helped me to feel like my son wasn't just being hard to deal with, he was really trying hard just to deal with the world, which to him was just overwhelming and overstimulating alot of the time.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ann Marie*
I agree with this. I can share how I did this with dd1, if it would help you.


Please share. It certainly will not hurt me even if it doesn't work!


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

I know MamaOui has at least one "spirited" child. I have 2 spiriteds and one spunky.

Middle dd is the most challenging. I hear you on the crying. I used to think APed kids had no need to cry. Ha! she screamed bloody murder multiple times a day for 7 yrs. This shall pass, yes, but a good day with a spirited is like a rough day with a mellow kid. I am glad the chiro helped with the "colic."

She also used to bite me when nursing, for months. I just couldn't get her to learn how not to. But finally, she learned.

When dh and I were finally able to leave her with a sitter, we would end up venting about her for the first 45 mins. We would have to force oursleves to stop venting.

She would be good for the sitter, tho and when she joined girl scouts the leader said she was the best one. AP does pay off. But don't confuse it with permissiveness!

Upside is, she puts just as much energy into positive directions now that she is older. It is a wonder to behold!

She is black and white. When she weaned it was over night. Ditto with potty learning. Very young and no accidents.


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## tinybutterfly (May 31, 2004)

DaryLLL-A good day with a spirited is like a rough day with a mellow.









And ditto on not confusing AP with permissiveness. My ds#1 needed structure, predictability and boundaries.


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## Wilhemina (Dec 26, 2001)

Well,
When dd1 was about that age I was preg with #2 and REALLY not wanting to nurse all day and night anymore. I went to see the lactation consultant who helped us begin nursing (dd started life in the NICU like your ds).

The ideas she had that worked best _for us_:

daytime:
begin limit nursing to only a few places (for us our rocking chair or her bed). This was surprisingly helpful. For example, if we were playing outside and she fell or whatever, I would hug and hold her until she stopped crying. All the while she would be asking to nurse. Once she stopped crying I could say, "okay, but we'll have to go inside to the rocking chair. Let's pick up these toys." By then she was calm enough to want to stay outside.

Try to discern why she wanted to nurse and be very diligent about offering alternatives. Is she getting hungry or thirsty? More snacks! Is she needing a snuggle? Read a book together. Is she bored? Get out the playdough.

when it got really bad (for me - the pregnancy made me feel very touched out) I would limit her going to sleep nursing, which could stretch on for....ever by counting or singing a nursery song, after which she was done and I would just lie with her.

During the night:
I tried to be very cognizant of her patterns here. Hard, I know, since you are half asleep yourself. But once I found the pattern I could start cutting out the feedings starting from the middle (of the night). DH had to be on board for this as she didn't want to cuddle with me and NOT nurse. There was definately some crying when I first told her the "mimis need to sleep." It wasn't long before she wasn't nursing between 10 pm and 5 am. I remember thinking that was HEAVEN!

Some additional support: You have really made me remember what those days were like. I feel nostalgic for them now, and it hasn't been that long. DD2 is only 3 and those sleepless nights are all but gone. Also you should know that dd2 has never been as interested in nursing as dd1. She still nurses, but very little compared to her sister - just not her style. All kids are definately different.

This too shall pass.

BTW, love your username!
Good luck and good vibes,
AM


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Hey,

I don't really know what to say because I don't know your 'story' or history. I can hear that you're tired&#8230;obviously. And, I don't think telling an exhausted mother that 'she should just keep on keepin' on' is right. Sleep deprivation is a serious issue.

So, how bad is it? Do you feel like you can no longer function or do you feel that this might get a little better soon. For me, things came in waves. That's something I try to consider about my parenting choices&#8230;parenting is going to have difficult waves regardless of the choices one makes, yk?

I'm curious if you've done some other 'style' parenting that has been working or how you hope making a change will be helpful. I say this because sometimes I try to make a change, whether this is within "AP" or outside the 'spectrum', and often the result has unexpected consequences.

It does sound to me that you can make some changes and still be well within the "AP" spectrum. I, personally, don't use the label "AP" for my IRL but I get the feeling that this is part of the stress for you.

I think I'll just post now to see where you want to be going with this. I can't tell if you're looking for more advice and/or what kind of encouragement you need right now.


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## Ruby Pearl (Dec 18, 2004)

Edamommy, I too am a high needs survivor, complete with the constant night nursing. My experience though is that I didn't start out parenting her in an AP manner. I was the baby-sleeps-alone-in-a-crib-all-night type, and subsequently ended up spending many nights in battle with her (which just reinforced my belief that I was a terrible mother and my child hated me). She is 4 1/2 years old now and still does not sleep through the night very often (if she does I usually get so freaked out I end up waking her to make sure she is still breathing). So what I am trying to say is that as hard as it may seem, there is no other way to parent a high needs child while being respectful of those needs. (Unless you want a psycho maniac for a son when he grows up from pent up emotional trauma). I am not 100% AP, I am as AP as my daughter has taught me to be. You say that he just does not work this way, can you explain what you mean by this?

On the issue of sleep: He is (as many others have said) old enough to set limits. For us this meant that I had to stop being the one to put her to bed, Daddy took over this task because if I put her to bed she was used to nursing and would not accept a change in our pattern (many high needs kids do not respond well to change). Many times we would just let her go to sleep in the livingroom with us and then take her to bed (we had a routine for this so that it was still "bedtime"). Daddy also took over the night waking for a while to break the habit of nursing so much at night. He would get up with her and take her downstairs and rock her, cuddle her, whatever he had to do and if she became too upset he would bring her back to me. It was not easy, but by that point I was in crisis and had to make changes to avoid putting her at risk of being harmed by me. Even the thought of how that desperation and rage felt makes my chest tighten like it was just yesterday!

I had never even heard about the term high needs until I came across Dr. Sears book and when I first read the definition I was filled with such relief I almost cried. For 18 months I had felt as though my child hated me and I couldn't figure out why, I felt like I had to be the worst mother in the world. I even used to "joke" that if someone had kidnapped her I would take a nap before calling the police. Even now we joke that if anyone ever kidnapped her they would pay us ransom to take her back. (never in front of her though).

I hope that you have found some comfort in what I have shared with you and that you can find a balance between AP and surviving life with a high needs kid. You are welcome to PM me or e-mail me if you are interested in talking to me more. I myself find comfort in knowing I am not alone in my battles.


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## IfMamaAintHappy (Apr 15, 2002)

Im curious why you think high needs and spirited are two different entities. Certainly their lovely list of qualities are very similar.

My now 5 yr old DD was a high needs baby, and my husband left for work at 5:30 and got home at 7, had dinner, checked mail, and went to sleep. At 10 months old, he took a job that had him travelling 5 days a week with some 2-3 week business trips out of the country. I had no parents near me and a church that was too busy to help. No days off, no evenings off, no sitters to give me a break.

She didnt sleep through till she was 20 months old, and not consistently for a week straight until she was 3 1/2.

DD2 slept 6 hrs a night till 10 months old, and has awakened to nurse a minimum of 4x per night, more often something like 5 or 6 times a night, ever since. I tried night weaning her and rocking her back to sleep, but she was still up 2x a night and I was conscious longer when I had to soothe her back to sleep than when I just nursed her. My husband has worked out of town 5 days a week since August of last summer.

I gotcha on sleep deprivation and lack of support from people around you.

Look into Dr. Jay Gordon's nightweaning, it is designed for co-sleeping children. It was something we tried, but ended up being so sleep deprived during the comforting back to sleep phase without nursing that we gave it up too soon to tell if it was working. But it is an option. And may not involve any crying. It is worth a shot, and way better than something like Ferber.

AP is not causing your childs high need. It is part of his personality. Its just going to be harder for you if you think that somehow by changing your overall parenting style, its going to change his personality. He will continue to be high needs/spirited in some aspect his whole life. I can tell I was a high needs baby, because I am a high strung, emotional, high maintenace woman. My parents were not the least bit AP.

And the other posters are right in that you need to find what works for you, and not worry about holding yourself to some totally sold out AP standard. Youre not failing yourself or your baby if you make decisions on what works for you that if the AP police came looking, they would be disappointed. Theres no AP police, and even by doing sleep training, that doesnt negate answering your childs needs, co-sleeping, gentle discipline,, its not like by doing some form of sleep training you're going to turn your back on AP or get kicked out of the AP society. You would not be the first AP mom to use The No Cry Sleep Solution (book) or Dr Jay Gordon's Nighweaning Guide (online) to become a more sane mama.

*HUGS*


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Hi, Kimberly--
I am holding my spirited/high needs 4 yo on my lap right now







. At 22 mo, we were still *seriously* struggling with sleep. Well into the twos, actually. Well, actually, who am I kidding--it took her nearly an hour to fall asleep last night, lol.

Anyway, I can offer a different perspective. I *did* try lots of non-ap things when dd was a young toddler (I had not yet heard of ap, but had been ap-ing from birth instinctively, and then succumbed to social pressure to cio. I have long been back on the "ap-wagon"







).

All I can say is, not ap-ing did not solve any problems. In fact, it made things worse. A child with genuine sleep issues (like my dd) can not be "fixed" thru a good cry. The more detached style of nighttime parenting made dd very anxious, and she would even freak out during bedtime stories cause she knew I was going to leave her









So, I am not really offering any advice here. I do believe that all kids are different and it is ok to try different things--not stick to some ap protocol. I am just saying that it is easy to look at the grass on the other side (non-ap side), and think it must be greener---but in reality that is often just a fantasy. Most of us, in the end, ap because it *is* easier--a need met is a need that is quicker outgrown, yadda yadda yadda. But, some *kids* definitely are tougher than others. ****Way**** tougher.


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruby Pearl*
So what I am trying to say is that as hard as it may seem, there is no other way to parent a high needs child while being respectful of those needs. (Unless you want a psycho maniac for a son when he grows up from pent up emotional trauma).

Yes. I used to worry that my dd would end up on drugs, self-medicating b/c she felt everything so deeply, took everything so hard. I was determined to help her learn to cope and keep a tight bond with me and feel she could trust me and lean on me and her dad.

She is 16 now and we still have to keep on top of things when life isn't going her way. But she is not on drugs!!! She is a star karate student, archer, has friends and lots of hobbies and talents, esp music and art.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Wow, I'm sorry you are feeling so criticized here.









I think since we always post advice here on MDC--oh I love to give advice!--that's one thing that makes it seem critical. I suspect that people are trying to be helpful when they seem so critical.

Anyway if you want advice I'll certainly pass some out, whether I know or not.







But for now, I hope you are able to make up some of your sleep debt and regain your equilibrium. I have so been there with the lack of sleep, even though my ds isn't especially high needs. It can really make life hard.


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## chalupamom (Apr 15, 2002)

First,







X 50. Seriously.

It's hard with these things, but I'm reading fear and resentment into your posts and that (I know from experience) is a scary, lonely place to be. I know what it's like that you would eat for breakfast anyone who tried to harm your child and yet you also feel as if you'd sell him (or in my case, her) to the next traveling caravan that came along without haggling on price. It's a strange dichotomy to be living and yet here we are.

I agree with everyone that AP and its degrees do pay off - but some people's payoffs are significantly less than others and/or come much later. I no longer co-sleep because I became so tired that I had night terrors wherein I hallucinated that my baby and husband were trying to choke me to death. My husband woke up one night to find me pushing the baby away roughly - he risked the danger in waking me and the next night we put up a crib. He slept in the baby's room the first week to allow me to catch up on sleep and we started the night weaning process. (By that way, I'm telling you all this not to make it all about me, but so that you'll know that I am taking you seriously and I know of what I speak.)

I hadn't wanted things to turn out that way - I assumed that I'd cosleep and night nurse as long as she wanted. But when my mental and physical state no longer supported those goals safely and knew I had to reconsider. And, although we haven't and don't CIO as a policy we do allow a certain amount of expression of anger on her part in which we do not interfere. Now that I am rested and no longer resentful I am able to get up a couple times a night for cuddles and reassurance and she is confident that I am still around and will be back when she needs me.

My point in telling you all this is that sometimes we fall short of our long-held goals for a variety of reasons. Not all of these reasons are selfish or unhealthy for kids or moms. Please consider taking a close look at the AP spectrum and looking for places you may be able to step back from your current ideals and try and find places to give yourself permission to regain a sense of self. AP is, yes, "child-led" but not "child-controlled" - there is a difference. We take children seriously, there is no doubt. AND, we are still adults who are able to see the big picture and have more experience and knowledge to know what's best for our family overall.

Your child has needs and you have needs. Please give yourself permission to explore both.

Love...


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## tofumama (Jan 20, 2004)

I mostly lurk here on MDC b/c I am either ignored or stop threads dead in their tracks LOL! SO, I hear ya on that one. I wanted to say I totally feel your pain. My dd was a preemie (35 wks) screamed her first 6 mo. nursed EVERY HOUR, had reflux, etc. I didn't sleep for 6 mo. She still doesn't sleep through the night, at almost 2. As far as the whole AP thing goes, my philosophy is take what you need, leave what you don't. I consider myself AP however I do what is best for my individual children, learning as I go. I don't co-sleep with the older 2...never did. However I have slept with them on more than one occasion, just not in my bed. The baby spends most of the night in bed with us. Maybe co-sleeping isn't going to work for you. Both my older kids lost interest in nursing around a year. Does this stuff make me less AP? B/c I don't co-sleep or ebf? Not in my mind. I am completely there for my kids, I do what I think is best for them, trying to meet there needs within reason.
That being said, you can't *be* there for your kids if you aren't at your best. Is there someone in your family who would watch your child so you could sneak in a nap, or a massage, etc. ? You need to take care of yourself, that is the best thing you can do for your child. I know when I am at my worst, I am not a good parent. SOmetimes even a long bath can help...maybe DP can take the babe out for a drive so the house is quiet, and you could soak in the tub. Sometimes some *me* time will help you feel like you have things in perspective again...I hope this helps...


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## hubris (Mar 8, 2003)

Goodness, should I post after tofumama or let her stop another thread in its tracks?









Edamommy, I have been in your shoes, or at least in my version of your shoes, and it's a hard place to be. What finally saved my family was two things: first, realizing that AP isn't WHAT you do, it's WHY you do what you do. So if you find yourself thinking that you have to follow a set list of approved parenting behaviors, toss the list or rewrite it. AP is the thought process behind your parenting. I think sometimes that idea gets lost, especially when we have a crying child and we want to DO SOMETHING.

The second thing that helped was getting more active parental support from my DH. He took over a lot of the nighttime parenting and helped to get a better routine in gear for us. Griff was still getting parental love and support, but at the same time, he was learning other ways of getting comfort from his other parent. Do you have a partner who can help with this? Once Dan stepped in more, all three of us started having better nights, and better nights led to better days.

While a lot of AP involves following the child's lead, I personally don't think AP necessitates always being 100% child-led. Sometimes children need a guide on their path, and sometimes parents need to stop to attend to their own physical and emotional needs. Even Doc Sears addresses that - it might be a good idea to find the parts of your Sears book(s) that deal with parental burn-out and re-read them, and see if you think you agree with what he's saying.


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## Al Dente (Jan 8, 2004)

edamommy, I don't have any advice since my (high-needs) ds is only 10 months, but I just wanted to give you







. Also, to address your other concern, I think many people feel that they are invisible at MDC; IMO it's just because there are many members but only a few that have been here for so long, or post so much, that everyone 'knows' them. KWIM? You're not alone. Keep posting!


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funshine*
AP isn't WHAT you do, it's WHY you do what you do. So if you find yourself thinking that you have to follow a set list of approved parenting behaviors, toss the list or rewrite it. AP is the thought process behind your parenting. I think sometimes that idea gets lost, especially when we have a crying child and we want to DO SOMETHING.

The second thing that helped was getting more active parental support from my DH. He took over a lot of the nighttime parenting and helped to get a better routine in gear for us. Griff was still getting parental love and support, but at the same time, he was learning other ways of getting comfort from his other parent. Do you have a partner who can help with this? Once Dan stepped in more, all three of us started having better nights, and better nights led to better days.

While a lot of AP involves following the child's lead, I personally don't think AP necessitates always being 100% child-led. Sometimes children need a guide on their path, and sometimes parents need to stop to attend to their own physical and emotional needs. Even Doc Sears addresses that - it might be a good idea to find the parts of your Sears book(s) that deal with parental burn-out and re-read them, and see if you think you agree with what he's saying.

I agree with funshine. I posted to you over in nighttime parenting too. I have been where you are-exhausted, frustrated, questioning all my choices. I think being an ap parent does not mean being a martyr. I think it means being in tune with the needs of everyone in your family, and meeting the needs of each individual without compromising the needs of other family members. Parents have needs that must be met in order for parents to be good parents, for the family to function well. When your own resources are depleted, you can't be there for your kids in the way they need you to be there. So if something needs to change in order for you to be healthy, change it. Making a change doesn't mean you aren't an attached parent.


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## Itlbokay (Dec 28, 2001)

I think parenting is hard at times no matter how one actually parents. Being sleep deprived makes everything harder too. Just wanted to let you know I feel for you.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Moving this to Parenting Issues...


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Hi edamommy,

I havn't read all the replies, so I hope this is not too repeptitive.

My dd is not really technically high needs, but does go through high needs times. Here's what I have done...

I did some night weaning periodically when dd was 18-26 months or so. this was basically to stop the mommy-as-pacifier nursing. I would take dd into another room (away from sleeping daddy.) and lie next to her and pretend to sleep. I would say, "it's time to sleep and I'm going to sleep now." Yes, it invoved crying, and dd is VERY determined- but it wasn't all that bad. Maybe the first time she cryed and tossed and turned for 10-15 minutes, but after that she generally got the message and if she cried it was just a few minutes out of frustration. I went through this generally after dd had been sick and I had let her non-stop nurse for a few days.

In my defense as a night time parent- I actually did nurse her 1-2 times at night till well after 2, but I decided to put my foot down about being a pacifier and being kept up all night. I wouldn't have felt right putting her in a separate room to break the habit, and trying to offer comfort would have just made the whole process more confusing to dd as she thought of booby as the ultimate comfort.

anyway, not so AP - but it was what worked for me.

My second suggestion for getting emergency sleep- and this will probably get me thrown off MDC altogether- is to give your son some baby benedryl to knock him out for a night or two so you can sleep.

I know drugging children is seen as E-VIL, but IMO it's better for baby than CIO and it's better for you than listening to them cry. It sounds like you need some sleep, and maybe if you could get a few hours in a row a couple nights in a row you might be able to come up with a course of action for the future.

(I did the tylenol/cold medicine thing a couple when my dd was a baby and had gotten into a bad sleeping jag that wouldn't quit. It was actaully pretty effective to get her back to her normal sleeping pattern after a period of disruption.)

another thing I suggest is taking what I call "mommy time outs." I often find that when I am super overwheled by my dd it helps a lot to tell her I need a time-out and leave the room. this way it's not a punishment for her, but she understands that mommy sometimes needs a break too.

anyway- hope I've been helpful, or at least consoling in that there are plenty of people who resort to not-the-most-ap-things in order to get sleep and restore sanity. I know it's hard to feel on the fringe of the fringe. I'm right there with 'ya.


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## MilkOnDemand (Jan 7, 2005)

Well, I certainly wouldn't advocate giving your child any type of antihistimine to "help" them, or you sleep. I think that part of the problem is that there aren't enough boundaries for your son right now. Part of being AP is being in tune with your child and recognizing what they need. You are their gentle guide to help them to get on the right path. Parenting isn't easy, but being a martyr is not neccessary to be a good parent. Ultimately, you will do what you think is right for both you and your child, but I can tell you that YOU not getting enough sleep is affecting HIS behaviour.

Not all children are easy to raise, but they all deserve to have a well rested mommy who can take care of them.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

22 months is old enough to nightwean.

You cannot be any kind of a good parent - AP or whatever else is out there - with you as sleep-deprived as you sound. Nightweaning for the sake of your sanity does not make you "not AP." It makes you a mama who wants to be able to function in order to care for her kid in the best way she can. You sound really, really invested in calling and thinking of yourself as "an AP parent." But it's not a laundry list you check off, ya know? You do what works. You sound like such a dedicated mama, and I'd bet you would have a whole lot more energy to parent the way you want to if you were getting some sleep at night. I know some mamas don't agree with this, and think it has to be "all or nothing," but I have been in your shoes - not with a high needs child, but with losing my mind over the sleep-deprivation at 22 months, and when you hit your wall with the all-night nursing, you hit your wall. It sounds like you are there and it's time to take action.

You can have ds sleep with dh till he's nightweaned, stay in bed yourself and explain that the breasts are sleeping, etc. There are a number of ways and I know mamas here have some good advice on it because I - and my kids - have benefited from it.

Good luck to you!


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
My second suggestion for getting emergency sleep- and this will probably get me thrown off MDC altogether- is to give your son some baby benedryl to knock him out for a night or two so you can sleep.

I know drugging children is seen as E-VIL, but IMO it's better for baby than CIO and it's better for you than listening to them cry. It sounds like you need some sleep, and maybe if you could get a few hours in a row a couple nights in a row you might be able to come up with a course of action for the future.

(I.

**I've tried the drugging thing







: back when he was an infant and I had been awake for a week straight. it was a last resort. He is not affected by that either--- he kept on a cryin'!


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
**I've tried the drugging thing







: back when he was an infant and I had been awake for a week straight. it was a last resort. He is not affected by that either--- he kept on a cryin'!

Then you need to mix it with some whiskey!







: Just kidding... sort of.

I don't have a high needs child and I have nothing useful to offer in terms of advice. Just wanted to say hi, I hear you, and I appreciated how honest your post was. Also it cracked me up - your irony is hilarious!

Oh! I do have something to say... I think parenting is about a balance of our needs vs their needs. And it does feel like vs sometimes (or probably a lot with a higher needs child). I think you have a right to get your needs met, and ideally it's about figuring out how to do it without swinging unpredictably from totally ap to totally... not! :LOL Of course I have no idea if this is useful to you or how it translates to your situation, I just know it's something I've been thinking about even re: my parenting of my fairly low maintenance daughter.

I hope you can get some sleep soon mama! Since having a babe I understand how sleep dep is a form of torture. Maybe his papa (if he has one) can parent him at night for a few nights while you crash somewhere else (like the couch, friend's place)? My dd sleeps over at her papa's one night per week, and she is much younger than your little guy. At first she slept fitfully, but he was there to pat her or give her a bottle of cow's milk or sing her back to sleep, and now she sleeps almost as well there as here.

Anyway, even if none of this is useful I want to say I hear you and I empathize...


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MilkOnDemand*
Well, I certainly wouldn't advocate giving your child any type of antihistimine to "help" them, or you sleep. I think that part of the problem is that there aren't enough boundaries for your son right now.

I am a little hurt that you chose to single out my shared experience to critisize. I don't "advocate" drugging a kid to sleep, I've "resorted" to it. I don't advocate it, and I certainly didn't ask you, or anyone else, to.

As I read edamommy's post, she was asking for concrete advice on what to do because she's at her wit's end. I shared what I have done in the past when I was at my wit's end. Hey, I'm not proud of doing it, but it worked, for me, at the time.

If edamommy wanted to hear 25 responses saying "You need to set boundaries" and "it'll pass" she probably would not have bothered starting this thread- she can find that info all over the board.

Sorry, next time I'll just try to stick to the party line.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
**I've tried the drugging thing







: back when he was an infant and I had been awake for a week straight. it was a last resort. He is not affected by that either--- he kept on a cryin'!

Don't feel you have to bag yourself for that!
I have found that when my Goo is wound up, we do a little bendryl and then talk to calm her away from crying and then let her float into sleep.

We don't do it often, but sometimes, she needs to get to sleep and it helps her relax.

I would say Goo is high needs at times. She also did the screaming thing. I follow the AP buffet! She has always slept in a crib/bed. She now comes into our bed when she gets scared at night.

We formula fed (for many reasons and we do the same for Moo), we would wear Goo sometimes and not others. We didn't follow lots of AP rules, but we DO listen to her and work with her needs.

Why to stay with AP? Because it is worth it. Goo is FINALLY taking less than 2 hours to put to bed. She is 2.5 yo. She is polite. She respects other people's feelings. She likes to explore the world. She doesn't know what it feels like to be hit for punishment. She rarely sees punishment for herself (her toys visit time out when she can't work with them).

Now Moo is a totally different child. She is calm, rarely cried (although we call her the Nazgul when she does cry) and she can be placed in her crib and she babbles for 5 mintues and falls asleep. The personalities are inborn and you have to work with what you are given....

I know you hate the phrase that this will pass. I understand that because some days it doesn't feel like it ever will. Goo made a huge change around 24 months old.

I would strongly suggest the no-cry sleep solution. I know it is taboo for some here, but it is not a bad way to help your children learn how to sleep. Think of it as sleep learning, not sleep training. That is a more descriptive title anyway.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Foobar*
Don't feel you have to bag yourself for that!
I have found that when my Goo is wound up, we do a little bendryl and then talk to calm her away from crying and then let her float into sleep.

A friend of mine says "Why is it that we are the first generation of parents who are not allowed to drug our children?"


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
A friend of mine says "Why is it that we are the first generation of parents who are not allowed to drug our children?"

Why is it that marijuana is illegal but so many are addicted to painkillers, sleep enhancers, other over the counter drugs, prescription drugs, alcohol and cigarettes?


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Then you need to mix it with some whiskey!







: Just kidding... sort of.

I..

**Thank you! Hmmmm whiskey, you say? got some. BUT- I guess I'll hold off for a bit. Believe me, we've considered it!

My husband does try to step in at night in bed. To no avail. My son thinks of him as the enemy at night. He gets very aggressive and angry w/dh if and when he tries to help me. He always has. He's a mama's baby thru and thru.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
My husband does try to step in at night in bed. To no avail. My son thinks of him as the enemy at night. He gets very aggressive and angry w/dh if and when he tries to help me. He always has. He's a mama's baby thru and thru.

Ah, yes, the "Mommy makes me happy so Daddy better get the hell away" syndrome.

I hate to tell you this, but your little Baylor might have to learn that Daddy is here to stay. It might help you to set up a weekend (start small) where your husband can step in and help him when he wakes up. Tell Baylor during the day what is going to happen at night. At 22 months, he KNOWS what you are saying to him. Have your husband explain that Mommy needs to sleep. Let's play! Even if it is late. The first step of getting your son to go to Daddy at night is to accept that Daddy is not a horrible monster that is keeping mommy away. That may be hard, but I would try it.

If you've already tried this, then disregard this message


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## MilkOnDemand (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:

I am a little hurt that you chose to single out my shared experience to critisize. I don't "advocate" drugging a kid to sleep, I've "resorted" to it. I don't advocate it, and I certainly didn't ask you, or anyone else, to.
I'm new around here, but I'm fairly certain that drugging a child in order to get them to sleep goes against not only AP style parenting, but MDC standards as well. We all do things that we may not be *proud* of, but I personally wouldn't tell anyone to try something that I knew was wrong.

By offering a drug to a child to help calm them down, to sleep, or whatever, teaches them a very negative message - at least IMO.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MilkOnDemand*
I'm new around here, but I'm fairly certain that drugging a child in order to get them to sleep goes against not only AP style parenting, but MDC standards as well. We all do things that we may not be *proud* of, but I personally wouldn't tell anyone to try something that I knew was wrong.

By offering a drug to a child to help calm them down, to sleep, or whatever, teaches them a very negative message - at least IMO.

Um, what negative message is that?
When I am wound up, I have a glass of wine. When I hit insomnia, I take a bendryl myself to help slow down my body. What I am teaching Goo is that some times our brain works too fast and we need to help our body relax and our brain can't do it alone.

Now, you may NEVER tell people of the things that you do that aren't AP, but most of us live in reality and Poor EdaMommy needs more reality than ideology at the moment.

It's that darn "You HAVE to be a perfect AP person" that makes one feel like a failure.

I am not trying to attack (as you said, you are new here), but trying to explain that AP is a spectrum and we all need to work with in that. And I don't see anything wrong with offering medicine to help my child.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

OK, I'm not even going to get into the Benadryl thing. I understand the temptation, but I think a quick phone call to a pharmacist will give you all the information you need about it being a central nervous system depressant to permanently discourage the use of Benadryl in this situation.

I'm copying and pasting some stuff that worked for my older daughter, who is about as high needs as they come.

My personal belief is that you may be going through some exhaustion/ crankiness due to sleep deprivation. A few decent nights sleep may make a huge difference. My dh took over the night wakings for my older daughter after Rosie was born, and that made my life a lot easier. He would just take Gracie out for long walks in our BOB jogging stroller. She loved the middle of the night walks, and the stroller put her right to sleep.

**

Yeah, sadly, for some kids waking up that much is normal. My first dd woke up that much and she didn't start sleeping through the night on most nights until she was two and a half years old.

The thing that helped us the most to reduce the nightwakings (this did not eliminate them, but it cut them down by almost two thirds) was to make sure that she was very comfortable. Here is what we did:

1. A big snack right before bed (followed by the last day's toothbrushing, of course). This was something filling and easy to digest, and required us to move her biggest meal of the day to 4pm with smaller portions at dinner. The snack was usually Earth's Best Plums, Bananas and Rice or a banana or applesauce or a slice of whole wheat bread. Bland and filling.

2. We kept a sippy cup of ice water by the bed and always offered that first before nursing. Yes, she fussed at first, but this cut way down on the length of nursing as well as the number of wakings.

3. Temperature: a) Cool air in the room, even if it sent our AC bill through the roof.
b) Warm, soft pajamas with socks on her feet. The combination of soft warm pajamas (we love Hanna Andersson baby zippers http://www.hannaandersson.com) and cool air made a big difference.

4. Put all the dogs in the garage so their barking would not wake her up. If there is some noise that is waking your child up, figure out what it is and reduce or eliminate or mask it.

5. In our family, dh was a major insomniac and was a big part of the problem because he woke up off and on all night long and then crept (not nearly as quietly as he imagined) around the house, in and out of the bed, etc., repeatedly waking her up. He broke this habit when he realized it was driving everyone else crazy. Now he sleeps better than ever.

6. Soft, soft sheets and blankets. We use one hundred percent cotton jersey knit sheets, which feel like an old soft Tshirt.

7. Plenty of room on the bed. In our case, we have a kingsized mattress on the floor with a single mattress on the floor right next to it. That way, Gracie gets to snuggle up to her parents but she has her own comfortable space.

8. If, by some fluke, she takes a nap in the afternoon, I would wake her up if the nap went past 4pm, even if that meant she was cranky for the rest of the day. If we didn't do that, she would be up during the night, and then the horrible cycle would continue for a week. If you are working during the day, your child's care provider might be enjoying a late afternoon nap for your child that is wreaking havoc on your nighttime routine.

That's all I can think of right now. I think you might be amazed how big a difference this stuff makes, almost overnight, especially the snack/sippy cup thing. A lot of my children's night nursing was due to hunger and thirst. My mother said that in the sixties with her kids, there was a saying "feed them, don't wean them." I have to say that it seems to work.


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## JenInMpls (Jan 18, 2004)

Folks get down on the No-Cry Sleep Solution? We're working with it right now. Wish I could say that it's helping Tristan get down easier to naps, but I find it a very gentle book.

I am currently reading The Hidden Feelings of Motherhood by Kathleen A. Kendall-Tackett - not like you have a lot of time to read, I'm guessing, but I've found myself in a lot of what she's written. Makes me feel a bit less alone.

I have no advice for you as my boy is just 4 months old but I will be thinking of you. Maybe that's not worth a lot but it always makes me feel better, knowing others are thinking of me.

Jen


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

IMO- not drugging your children isn't an AP issue at all. I think many who are disgusted by AP would think it pretty wrong to give your kids medications to get them to sleep.
It's an ethical issue that many would disagree with. Not an "AP" issue.


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## MilkOnDemand (Jan 7, 2005)

You are an adult, and as an adult if you chose to take something to relax, that's on you. Your child does not have the same power of choice. I do live in reality, and no, I'm not the perfect textbook AP mom, nor do I claim to be. What I am is a mom, who tries to stay in tune with my children, and I do not follow any parenting philosophy per se, I just parent the way that feels right to me. If something makes sense, I'll give it a shot, but based upon my own logic, not that of the infamous Dr. Sears. I don't subscribe to any parenting magazines, don't own a parenting book, and I don't go by a label. The OP said she was doing the book AP thing, and offering benadryl doesn't fit that mold at all.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
**I've tried the drugging thing







: back when he was an infant and I had been awake for a week straight. it was a last resort. He is not affected by that either--- he kept on a cryin'!

Oh man, that's tough! He must really have a hard time settling down!

I take it you've tried chamomile tea? they also make an herbal relaxant for kids, but my dd would never take it. I took it though, and I think it helped. ;-)


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MilkOnDemand*
You are an adult, and as an adult if you chose to take something to relax, that's on you. Your child does not have the same power of choice. I do live in reality, and no, I'm not the perfect textbook AP mom, nor do I claim to be. What I am is a mom, who tries to stay in tune with my children, and I do not follow any parenting philosophy per se, I just parent the way that feels right to me. If something makes sense, I'll give it a shot, but based upon my own logic, not that of the infamous Dr. Sears. I don't subscribe to any parenting magazines, don't own a parenting book, and I don't go by a label. The OP said she was doing the book AP thing, and offering benadryl doesn't fit that mold at all.

Sigh....

I was not trying to attack your APedness. I apologize if that came across. It struck me that the OP was feeling that if she couldn't do AP "right" than she couldn't do it at all.

I am trying to point out that this is not true. There are flavors of AP, an entire spectrum as well. I also rarely read parenting books. I also don't call myself an AP mom, I really use a mix.

Ok? Email/posts never quite put the words in the right tone. Please read this as "hey, I understand you POV, but I am approaching from a different angle. I see a way that the OP is asking for a blend without getting a party line" ok?









As for the benedryl, I think it is fair to put it out there as a suggestion for rare cases.
We don't use it often, but it is not something to attack someone for. Yes, I am aware of what an antihistomine does to the nervous system. I am also aware of what alcohol does. I am not ignorant on this cases. I take calculated risks... That is part of living. I make a calculated risk every day when I drive my children in a car. It would be safer to hide them away and never let them out.


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## BabyOsMommy (Jul 1, 2003)

Mama, I'm just joining in here now... I read your post thoroughly and skimmed most of the rest. I apologize if I've missed something.

I just wanted to tell you from someone who's been at the end of her rope with a high needs baby (who's now a toddler, but has calmed some since just after a year, fortunately for everyone) not to discount your needs. Being an attached parent should not mean that you lose yourself entirely for the sake of your child. That's not good for anyone anyhow. I second getting your husband involved whether your baby wants it or not. You're not putting him in danger or allowing him to CIO alone and you are strengthing the bond between them, which is a good thing. At about a year, my dh had to step in at night to allow me to sleep, and it was hard for EVERYONE for the first few nights. Ds screamed in his arms and I just wanted to go to both of them. But after a week they worked out an almost magical nighttime connection that I actually missed (but not as much as I needed my sleep). But I had to let them work it out together. And ds stopped waking at night. If he did, dh would go to him, but it rarely happens anymore. It worked for our family. Now this may not be considered by some as truly attached parenting, by nightweaning that soon but it really worked for us, and I was a better mama during the day because I was better rested. Now dh handles ds#1's bedtime routine, and I of course do all the baby's nighttime parenting.

I'm sorry you're going through this, and I really hope that you figure out something that works for your whole family soon.


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## inthesnow (Dec 8, 2004)

My dd2 sounds exactly like your ds. She is 2.5 now and has transitioned from being a high need baby to a high need toddler. We have good hours and bad hours( I can't even say good days and bad days because it is hour to hour).

In my opinion, you need some sleep, first and foremost. I consider myself AP but have learned that I HAVE TO take care of my needs(at least some of them). And sleep deprivation is awful. It clouds everything else. I went through severe ppd with my dd2 because of sleep deprivation and lots of other things. Is there a way you can get late afternoon naps? Try to begin the night weaning? And I absolutely loved The No Cry Sleep Solution. I found it to be the only book that gave me any helpful advice.

As far as why you should keep being an AP parent? Well, I don't think it's at all black and white. Do what feels right, what you can live with, what your child can live with. I sometimes doubt my choices too. But I really believe that my dds are becoming sensitive, open, loving and kind people. I think that makes it worth it.

Don't beat yourself up. You are doing the best you can do with your situation.

And I HIGHLY recommend the book Raising your Spirited Child. That is my bible. The first time I read it, I cried because I thought I was crazy. I coudn't believe that they were talking about my dd!! Especially after having dd1 who had been so EASY and mellow.


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## StillForest (Nov 27, 2001)

((( Kimberley))),

My DD was also high need as an infant. I haven't had time to read all the responses but just wanted to share what saved us during that period of time: network chiropractic care. Many premature babies and those who had many interventions during/post-birth (like my DD, unfortunately) have serious sleep issues. Chiropractic totally changed our lives---DD started sleeping better after the first visit. Network chiropractic is a very gentle form of body work that uses gentle gestures to ease patterns of held tension out of the body. My daughter gradually became a totally different baby. I can't say enough about how this helped us. I was totally desperate from lack of sleep till we met our chiropractor.

I hope that things get better for you soon!


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Hey,

I was just thinking as I read through some of the more contentious posts on here that it's always hard to give concrete advice on an AP board because AP parents are a wide range of passionate people with different ideas about many things.

These include religion, pharmaceutical drugs, recreational drugs, alternative medicine, food allergies, vegetarianism, politics, social issues, the media, feminism, natural childbirth and many many others.

I think it's important when offering advice and discussing matters to realize that not everyone shares the same beliefs about EVERYTHING here.

If it's only safe to talk about things we think everyone will agree with us on, we're stuck with maybe three topics. (Besides criticizing non-AP parents.)

I think it's fine that we all have strong beleifs, but I think we're really limiting ourselves if we don't allow for a wide range of differences of opinion.


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## michelle1k (Jul 7, 2002)

... to inezyv's list:

a white-noise machine (or humidifier) in your bedroom while sleeping.

a small dropperful of children's valerian on those nights when my dd (31 months) wakes constantly (4 x and up) to nurse. It really works and I don't feel the least bit bad about giving it to her.

when she won't settle down into sleep at night (too wound up - hitting her 2nd wind etc.) homeopathic coffea 30X - two doses if need be.

I have survived (ok, just barely) my first high-needs, spirited, screaming-constantly-as-an-infant baby (he is now almost 7 and *still* very spirited!) and my dd is a handful too.


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## raleigh_mom (Jan 11, 2004)

Have you ever used Hyland's Children's tablets?

I'd really get some Hyland's teething tablets (they are herbal) even though it doesn't sound like teething is a problem. They contain chamomille (sp?) and settle my kids down. I'v been known to use them when the kids are really needing some help to settle down (tantrum before bed, on an airplane, overwhelmed on a trip). Especially for my now 4yo needy DD. She still takes them sometimes - even asks for them.

My mom doubted them until she saw it in action. My screaming, over stimulated DD fell asleep in 5 minutes after taking them.

We make ginger iced tea for tummy aches - you could try chamomile ice tea during the day to try to help him feel calmer.


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## Belleweather (Nov 11, 2004)

You could also try the Bach Flower Essences Rescue Remedy, if Benedryl either doesn't work or gets your panties in a knot.


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## Wilhemina (Dec 26, 2001)

Just back to check if any of these seems helpful to you edamommy. Keep us updated (after you get some rest!)
AM


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

AP is "child led", not "child controlled". Can I kiss you through the internet, Chalupamom?









I couldn't agree more! SO MANY PEOPLE confuse these things, esp. at this age. Because their wants aren't always their needs - so it becomes very difficult to draw the line firmly and confidently.

My first child, a dd who's now five, was INTENSE. I mean, cried 24 hours a day, nursed nonstop all day and night, never quick to smile or laugh.... I thought for sure that I was a total failure as a parent. I got so used to jumping at her every demand that when she got older, it was habit. She wants to nurse and she wants to nurse NOW.... okay, honey, quick, whatever you want! Drawing boundaries so that we were ALL happy and healthy would have been a very good idea.

I nightweaned her when I was pregnant with my second and due in four months. I offered a paci every time she started to wail... the first night was difficult, the second night was bearable, and the third night was a piece of cake. I was still there, rubbing her, shushing her, singing to her, but I let her know that "mama's boobies are sleeping now. They are very tired."

After she weaned, I moved her into a separate bed with her dad. When my son turned one, he was very eager to sleep with his dad and sister, and he was nightweaned overnight without one peep!

After nightweaning, they slept through the night. If you have three nights, it's not too hard. Just don't give in, or it will send him very confusing messages and make the process a hundred times harder.

"Child led is not child controlled", just remember that! It is okay to set boundaries. You will be AP and using gentle discipline......... if you need to draw the line, draw it, mama! This is reality, not some idealogical novel we're writing.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I just wanted to add, to make sure that you understand:









BEING AP IS NOT ABOUT GIVING IN TO EVERY WHIM YOUR CHILD HAS. YOU WILL STILL BE AP EVEN WHILE YOU'RE SETTING HEALTHY, REALISTIC BOUNDARIES FOR YOUR CHILD.

Sorry, don't mean to shout, it's always easier in hindsight, eh?


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

I just want to jump in here with my sympathy, empathy and hugs as well. I agree that it will pass, but it often takes a very, very long time with a high needs kid, so it is not much help to hear at the point you are at. My HN babe is now *eight*! She puts herself to bed! And has been for a few years now. She was about five when things got better. Please note that I am a single mom, so I knew from the git-go that I would not be able to practice AP "by the book" and would have to tweak it. (Of course, that has not stopped me from agonizing over things!







) I started night weaning her at age 13 months (from her bedtime to mine) and next came from my bedtime until it was "light out", but I forget what age exactly, before 2, though. I found Dr. Sears' Baby Book very helpful on this. See his sections on burn out, night weaning and using baby as barometer. I also started moving her into her own bed in my room. That took about three years! :LOL At six she got her own room.

I have also resorted to sleep aids at times. Usually to break a downward spiral of sleep deprivation causing sleeplessness. (Whose bright idea was it for our bodies to work like that! :LOL) I also have used it when it was important to get a good night's sleep, like the night before a long road trip. We have used things like Valerian, pulsatilla, chamomile, belladonna, Rescue Remedy, and Calms Forte, depending on what the need is. Valerian is an herbal remedy, but it doesn't make it any better than Benadryl. Valerian is a central nervous system depressant. I'm not 100% certain Benadryl is. It is an antihistamine, but I'd have to look it up to see how it acts on the CNS.

With my first I held the nursing relationship as sacred and thought that I should not put any limits on it or use discipline in association with it. It made me miserable and things went a lot better when I instituted boundaries, such as no nipple twisting, you may switch sides a maximum of three times, no digging your toenails into Momma's legs, etc.

P.S. I second the recommendation of network chiropractic care. Amazing!

ETA: I want to say I hear you on the being ignored/lack of advice thing. Truth is that personality occurs in about 15% of people, so there are not as many mamas dealing with it. I think they often just don't know what to say.


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## Unreal (Dec 15, 2002)

yes yes yes
Rescue remedy is AMAZING

Our little spazzmonster (23 mo ds) has gotten it into his head that 3am is a DANDY time to get up and play. We went with it the first two times. BIG MISTAKE.
Now I keep him in bed with me....
last time he quieted down and went back to sleep
Last night though, he FREAKED out (as only a spirited child can/will do)
I had dh, who was spitting flames of evilness at this point, to get me the RR. He got it and stormed off to the bathroom
I squirted it in ds's mouth and the silence was amazing.
He quieted down...wasn't asleep, but wasn't awake....
and within 10 minutes was back asleep

It is expensive stuff, for us atleast, but we make sure we ALWAYS have some in the house.

Herbs for Kids makes a Chamomile Calm too...it is good and works great for an over wound babe.

No, neither will magically make your kiddo sleep through the night, but maybe they'll make the nighweaning a bit easier.


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## lifetapestry (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BabyOsMommy*
I just wanted to tell you from someone who's been at the end of her rope with a high needs baby (who's now a toddler, but has calmed some since just after a year, fortunately for everyone) not to discount your needs. Being an attached parent should not mean that you lose yourself entirely for the sake of your child. That's not good for anyone anyhow.

This was just so nicely said. I want to second it. On an airplane, the flight attendants instruct you that you put on your own oxygen mask before you put on your child's. I would even go further and say that if you are neglecting your own needs, I seriously doubt that you can be there (or "attached") to your child. You must be able to sustain yourself at the same time that you are caring for your child.

The other thing that "attached" or any good parenting is NOT is automatically labeling something as "bad" if it makes your child cry. Some of the things that my child has cried about over the years include: 1) having to stay in his carseat on the L.A. freeway, when we were unable to get to an exit for over an hour; 2) not being allowed to drink my coffee; and 3) not being allowed to play with my chef's knives. Yeah, I realize I'm being kind of silly, but I am quite sure that all of us have "allowed" our children to cry because it was necessary to keep them safe or the thing that was making them cry was good for them (e.g. not drinking the coffee is a good thing, not the crying itself).

Karla


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StillForest*
((( Kimberley))),

My DD was also high need as an infant. I haven't had time to read all the responses but just wanted to share what saved us during that period of time: network chiropractic care. Many premature babies and those who had many interventions during/post-birth (like my DD, unfortunately) have serious sleep issues. Chiropractic totally changed our lives---DD started sleeping better after the first visit. Network chiropractic is a very gentle form of body work that uses gentle gestures to ease patterns of held tension out of the body. My daughter gradually became a totally different baby. I can't say enough about how this helped us. I was totally desperate from lack of sleep till we met our chiropractor.

I hope that things get better for you soon!

Yes, thank god (or whoever) for pediatric chiropatics! Baylor started at 10 months. He went from crying 24/7 for no reason to only crying 1/2 the day- a major improvment if you ask me!


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Belleweather*
You could also try the Bach Flower Essences Rescue Remedy, if Benedryl either doesn't work or gets your panties in a knot.


Yep, tried bachs for months... nothing. Also, have tried valerian...nothing?!?! I'm telling you- he is a force to be reckond with!


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

just to put it in perspective, ds (4) takes benedryl every day for allergy probs & excema (& please, this is not the thread for biting my head off for following dr's orders on this one... we've tried many things, inc elim of dairy, he's had no vax, etc.
i have not turned my back on western medicine, tho' i'm happy to say oscillococcinum has just kicked my flu in the ass. i'm not thrilled to give it to him daily, but he suffers a lot & it's better than daily *prednisone*.) the boy has not dropped dead yet.

the context it was used in was vs driving-off-the-road type exhaustion. lack of sleep can trigger psychotic episodes (my theory is andrea yates may never have commited her terrible deeds if she had gotten a good night's sleep.) sleep deprivation is serious, deadly business & i think most of us realize that no one is suggesting a return to the days of yore, when babies died from overdoses of 'soothing syrup' (laudanum). we are intelligent grownups; i give the bulk of us credit for knowing better (on the other hand, i am kind of glad we are talking about it rather than just laughing it off. i just don't think it should be demonized.)

if you have never been in a position to consider that 'the baby's nose is *sort of* runny, isn't it? oh PLEASE god let him sleep for 3 hours straight, where's the dimetapp', well, bless your heart, but i don't think someone here admitting to doing it in desperation necessarily needs an admonishment. personally, i think the yates kids would rather have had benedryl. (this is all just supposition, of course, & i have no actual idea. but i would be interested in knowing just how much sleep the poor woman got before 'going crazy', if you kwim.)

anyways, eda, i hope you feel better. sear's 'fussy baby' (as the 'high needs' book was called back then) got me thru some rough times way back when (i have since had one more, but cut a break with the baby. whew!) you know, i felt better knowing *he* (dr sears) couldn't stand the sound of a screaming baby, either. thusly is the AP movement born <g> (yes, i know, i was reading 'mothering' even before that.







) you know in your heart these babies don't just 'cio', don't you? they've got some energy, these high-needs babies! more than i do, anyway. your baby is the way he is, no matter what ezzo's opinion is.

it's a balancing act, to be sure; meeting their needs respectfully while setting bounderies & keeping *yourself* sane. do your best to make yourself take some time & get some rest. i second darylll's babysitter idea.

there is no perfect ap ideal and i do a lot better when i keep that in mind. what works for us?

good luck. suse

ps sorry this is so disjointed; this is one of those 'make dinner, type, dandle baby, pee, type, stir dinner' etc posts.


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## Raven67 (Apr 20, 2002)

Sounds like it's not working....especially the night nursing and co-sleeping. So, do something different. Doesn't sound "worth it" to continue that way. You can still be an attached parent and get some sleep. Lots of "AP Mommas" here practice Dr. Gordon's guidlines for nightweaning, or the NCSS...which has the same goal. If I were you, I would do what worked to restore rest and sanity to you and your son, don't worry about whether it's AP. How is it good for him to have such a tired, unhappy mommy? Even Dr. Sears will tell you: Cosleeping doesn't work out for everyone...If it isn't working, don't do it. Although some disagree, I consider a toddler who is waking several times a night to be a sign that it is "not working." I hope you do something different for yourself. You sound at your wits end.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
Okay, I've been awake since 3am. Again. It's been like this, really since he was born. I went with ap parenting because it seemed to me to be the kindest form of parenting. Child-led. Which, at the time (pre-child), seemed to fit into our personalities anyway. We co-sleep. We nurse and fought to do so as Bay was a preemie and in the hospital for a month at birth and on oxygen, etc.). We don't spank. We don't "talk down too" or "yell". I am a sahm. Baylor is a high needs baby and has been since day 1. He has gotten better, but night is a big issue. I'm working on a week of nursing all freakin' night and I'm freakin' tired as I've not really slept since he was born. He's 22 months folks. I've been thrown off of main stream boards because I'm such an ap advocate. I mean when is the big freakin' pay off here? I'm beginning to think that unless Baylor grows up to be president or something it will not pay off at all and he'll be lucky if I have a grain of sanity left by the time he finally has to get off me and go to school or something. My only source of support is this board, I would like to think. And, for ME, it's really NO support at all. No one seems to want to hear or understand my issues. I get a few web-hugs per post and not much more. I'm sooooo grateful for those mama's who DO reply with advice and please don't think I'm not. But, in general, I feel like Mothering isn't here for me. I'm not a poplular girl at this site. I'm the one doing cartwheels in the outfield or something. I think maybe many of you fear me because ap IS NOT WORKING for our child, for us, and that idea isn't acceptable here. Now I fear my son is to old to be trained or taught any other lessons and I'm destined to die from exhaustion or something. For me this board is usually a slap in the face due to my "shortcomings" as a mother or something. Tell me why I should stay. Tell me why AP should work for us.


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

You probably need to stop being "quite" so AP. Sleep is a huge necessity. You wouldn't eat gross junk food all day, would you? Well it's just as bad to let yourself get sleep deprived. Sleep deprivation and exhaustion are the leading causes of child abuse. I know someone who was paralyzed from the waist down due to a car accident caused by a sleep deprived person. So why expect yourself to parent while sleep deprived?

If co sleeping is making you sleep deprived, stop doing it. If nursing on demand is killing you, don't do it. You can be AP in plenty of other ways. You're not a slave or a milk machine-- you're a human being. You have to know your limits, and not let those limits get violated.

here are some hugs!


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *suseyblue*
j
sleep deprivation is serious, deadly business

yes! It is just as dangerous as driving drunk. People have no idea how serious it is.

(tho I don't agree with you about the yates case-- she is schizophrenic, well rested or not)


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

Oh, I forgot two more little techniques made a huge difference.

1. From Pantley's NCSS, I learned the technique of putting my finger under the baby's chin while nursing, and then gradually, gently disengaging everywhere our bodies touched, until finally, it was just my nipple and my finger under her chin. Then I took the other hand and gently unlatched, with my finger still under her chin. Then, finally, I released the chin. The babies both usually sleep through this.

2. Then, I move to the bottom of the bed and sleep sideways so that the smell of my milk won't wake the baby and make her want to nurse more.

3. When dh is in bed, I ask him to put his hands flat on the baby's back before I start the unlatching process.

My babies have almost never unlatched on their own in the middle of the night.

Good luck.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

My first thought is there is no answer to why ap should work for you. AP is not about rules, about cosleeping, about staying at home, breastfeeding. AP is about loving your child and treating them as a human being, about giving your child what they need and being there for them through all of their emotions and problems. At least to me. And in this regard you seem to not be failing. It seems to be working for you.

I am not sure from your OP how AP is *not* working for you. Babies have different personalities and needs, that has nothing to do with being AP or not. Is the problem that he wakes to nurse a lot? Causing you to get little sleep?

Do you nap with him? Is his nursing a habit or a need? Once this is figured out, you could find answers to this problem. There are a lot of threads in Nighttime Parenting about this very thing.

You definitely need to take care of yourself. Sleep is important. Is is possible to nap in the evenings while you DP plays with your son for a few hours, or possibly get a mother's helper a few hours a week to sleep. Or some family member or close friend you can go to for some time off every once in awhile.

The pay off? Well, different again to different people. I do not care about a pay off in terms of achievement. I just hope my son is a well adjusted person who respects other human beings, is smart, does not see violence as a solution, a person who can foster deep meaningful relationships, trust others and himself and respect the world around him. I think AP and gentle parenting fosters these things.

I do not think people fear you, some people just do not know what to say. Others have no advice. Others might not be able to say what they want to say. Some boards are slow sometimes and not every post gets the attention it deserves. I do not think it has anything to do with being "unpopular." Or AP not working for you--as I do not get this from this post...All I see is that you need some more sleep and to figure out a nighttime solution, not that AP has failed you. Although I think there are many people here who do not practice every single aspect for the natural parenting (not to be equated with AP b/c as it has been said just b/c you do not do every single thing does not mean you are NOT AP).

One day your son will start to sleep better, that's no consolation to you now. But it will happen. In the meantime, you need to be there for him. But you also need to be there for yourself.

And you should stay to learn and grow. Thats why I stay. I *wish* I did not circ my son, I *wish* I had a nonmedicated homebirth..but you know what? I did not...and I learned that I can do these things from this board. Stay b/c you want to find solutions and alternatives. Stay because tthe advice is wonderful. There are many moms here who have parenting problems, you are not alone.


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## Ruby Pearl (Dec 18, 2004)

> We have good hours and bad hours( I can't even say good days and bad days because it is hour to hour).
> 
> 
> > Inthesnow: It is a relief to hear someone else say this for a change. I totally agree with you!


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## chalupamom (Apr 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland*
AP is "child led", not "child controlled". Can I kiss you through the internet, Chalupamom?









You certainly may! MWAH back at you!


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Foobar*
Ah, yes, the "Mommy makes me happy so Daddy better get the hell away" syndrome.









Oh boy, we deal w/ this one big-time. DD almost always wakes up about when I'm getting ready for bed, and starts howling. If I haven't brushed my teeth, dh goes in to her. She howls worse. And when I do go in, it's "Daddy UP!" as she pushes him out of the bed. So he slinks off...

However, the last two nights he's gone in & she's just fallen asleep on him. Amazing! I think it's b/c we've really been trying to night-wean, which has not been a smooth process. But here's what we've been doing (btw, dd is about the same age as your ds, Kimberley):
A couple of weeks ago we started having a bunch of nights where she was waking up 4x/night & wanting to nurse down on BOTH sides. I have a hard time falling asleep when she's nursing now, so it meant 15-30 min of me being awake too, several times/night. At some point I got worn out and said "time to sleep, we'll nurse again when it's light out." No go--I hadn't given her any warning this would happen, and it's not a good idea to spring changes like this on a toddler in the middle of the night! So I made up my mind that on my next long wkd (which was this last wkd, Fri - Sun) I was going to try to night-wean.

So last Thursday morning I told her that we could always nurse during the day, but we were going to nurse at bedtime and then we wouldn't nurse again until the sun came up. The first time she woke Thurs night she cried a lot (20 min?) but fell asleep on top of me. Since then (until last night, which was another story & we fell off the wagon) she's been waking up 2ce/night, trying to nurse, crying a minute when I tell her we don't nurse at night but we'll nurse in the morning, and then falling asleep on top of me. Last night didn't work--but I think there was something else going on & she didn't even fall asleep again after she nursed. Ugg.

Your ds sounds like he's much higher-needs than my dd, so I'm sure you're thinking "It'll never be that easy." And you're probably right--you know your child best! But I'm sure you can make something work--figure out ahead of time & plan for it, though. Try to get your dh to take over for a few nights. Sleep on the couch or the guest bed or whatever, and put in ear-plugs so you won't hear the crying so clearly. I know I have a hard time asking my dh to take over at night--he's a SAHD, and I feel like he's with her all day so night-time is MY turn...but in the long run I know it's not really helping things. (DD won't nap for him anymore, and hasn't since about 16 months.)

But the key is a) to make sure you & your dh are on the same page, and b) tell your ds ahead of time (and more than once) what's going to happen.

I'm not sure I'm telling you anything you haven't tried, and that other mamas have told you. I hope things get better for you soon...


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

I cannot believe so many people finally replied to one of my posts! Thanks to all of you. I'm blessed to have heard from each of you. And a big thanks to Lisa (pioneermama) for taking such time out of her personal life to help a cyber-stranger like myself. If what "goes around comes around" you will be in for a pleasant surprise someday!









We went to Waldorf Class yesterday and as luck would have it the teacher was absent (sick). So, us mama's took it upon ourselves to have class anyway. It turned out to be just what I needed. I really didn't share much with them but just listened to THEM tell their stories of woe, etc. And it helped me so much. Last night Bay awoke only twice to nurse and I slept pretty soundly inbetween (thank you thank you lucky stars!). I did have a shot-o-whiskey myself right before bed. May sound wrong. I don't even drink but a glass of wine a week usually.... but I think it took my edge off. Don't worry, will not make it a habit







I'm still weepy and tired. but I know that being the parent I am will, in the end, lend to a well adjusted boy. And, someday, I hope to be a well adjusted woman! I did try to not nurse him last night. I tried to explain that he could "susu" whenever during the day but at night the "susu's" would sleep. He cried and begged and pleaded and actaully begged "please mommy... susu so nice and good please mommy". And I couldn't deny him. What kind of monster would I have been. I felt so bad even making him say that to begin with...


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
He cried and begged and pleaded and actaully begged "please mommy... susu so nice and good please mommy". And I couldn't deny him.










Yes, I'm familiar w/ that! "Nuss PEEESE! NO mei mei sleep!" And like you, that's when I broke down...after all, we nurse when she's upset about other things, it seems kind of inconsistent to say we don't do it when she's upset at night!







So hard to be consistent...

I do think talking to him ahead of time will help--mention it during the day, and then during his pre-bed bath, and at the beginning of the bedtime rituals when you're reviewing what happened during the day & what you'll do tomorrow. Maybe you won't see results immediately, but eventually.

And good for you for finding a Waldorf group. You'll probably find some like-minded people there!


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nate*









I do think talking to him ahead of time will help--mention it during the day, and then during his pre-bed bath, and at the beginning of the bedtime rituals when you're reviewing what happened during the day & what you'll do tomorrow. Maybe you won't see results immediately, but eventually.


And maybe if you can help him pick out a night lovey to hold onto when the susu's are sleeping.... That might help too!


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## Ruby Pearl (Dec 18, 2004)

I'm so glad to hear you finally got some rest. It's so hard isn't it? They just instinctually know how to break your heart into a million little pieces and even how to make you not mind that it's been broken! May your night's be more restful from here on in!


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## Mona (May 22, 2003)

has anyone mentioned cranial-sacral work? similar to chiropractic work but more energy based and extremely gentle.
did wonders for my baby.


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## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

I hear you. One of mine didnt much appreciate all the touchy feeliness of the AP lifestyle.


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## kokotg (Jan 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MilkOnDemand*
The OP said she was doing the book AP thing, and offering benadryl doesn't fit that mold at all.

sorry to drag this up again, but just reading this now....this is from askdrsears.com:

"Another "off-label" use of Benadryl is sedation. Most parents (myself included) will admit to using it on occasion to help the kids fall asleep."

so, whatever else one can say about it, it seems that benadryl as sleep aid is, in fact, a book AP thing.


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## hypatia (Apr 29, 2002)

I've never used Bendadryl, but I _do_ administer the Baby Motrin relatively liberally, even though I'm never _completely_ certain that what's bothering DS is pain. If it seems like it might be teething that's keeping him up at night, out comes the Baby Motrin. At least for my DS, relieving his teething pain makes all the difference about whether he will sleep.

Am I refusing him the opportunity to cope with pain, which is a normal part of life? Maybe. But as an adult, Ithe second I feel my period coming on, I dive for the Advil. I would feel like a hypocrite not offering him the same opportunity. . And I think sleepless, irritable nights are a sign that he is not coping well with the pain.


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## Mona (May 22, 2003)

hypatia-
i'm not going to address the whole argument of helping him deal w/ pain.
what is more disturbing to me is the routine use of motrin, for reasons you don't even know. there have been countless studies showing the damaging effects of motrin on adults, let alone children. it really messes w/ their system. your kid doesn't have a chance from the get go to develop a strong system if you are adament about pill popping.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Teething pain is tough because one is never sure what is causing the fussiness/lack of sleep. I can't really blame somebody for administering painkillers if they are not sure. What are they to do- get an MRI of the kid's head to see if there's gum inflammation before using a painkiller?

Plenty of babies don't like cold chew toys or ambesol (and that natural alternative to ambesol stuff is disgusting tasting.)

Any study that shows damage from OTC drugs tends to focus on those who use them every day, or most days. These studies are not looking at people who take a half dose once a month.

But I'm not sure why I'm arguing this. People are either against off label use of OTC drugs, or OK with it. I don't think either side's feelings are "rational", but they are based on general feelings towards medicine, drugs, pharmaceutical companies, "the man", etc.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Hey Edamommy-

If you are still reading with all the non-sequitors,

Icame across something on the nightime parenting section than I realized i hadn't seenmentioned. Have you tried giving your son magnesium before bed?

Magnesium relaxes muscles and calms. this is especially true in people eho are deficienct, but many people are. Plus, children's multis don't generally have minerals in them.

For dosage and more info- check out the sleep section.


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## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
So, my quandry is how do I night wean him without enduring the crying.... which he does at the drop of a freaking hat?

Just curious, does he take a pacifier? That has helped to save my sanity at times, so I thought I'd ask. .
btw, I can't imagine constant crying for as long as you endured, you have my admiration (for not losing your marbles). Your son is blessed to have you as a mama.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Baylor has been sleeping like a dream. I got the idea from another Mothering thread that he may have a magnesium deficiency (or other minerals) and have been giving him trace amounts of magnesium before bed... ahhhh ... the boy is sleeping like a dream. Waking only around 5am for a long nursing marathon (normally he never nurses more then 5 minutes at a sitting...off and on off and on).









btw- he doesn't take a pacifier. I despise them!







:


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## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*

btw- he doesn't take a pacifier. I despise them!







:

So glad to hear he's sleeping well!

Hehe, I have a love/hate relationship with pacis... I hate the idea of them, the look of them, the possible attachment BUT they keep dd from screaming in the car and they allow me to leave the room for more than five minutes (shower!!!) I literally cried when dd took her first binky w/ no problem (at around 4 months), but have discovered they have their place at times


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## Mona (May 22, 2003)

nak

kimberley- in what form did you give your dc magnesium?
glad it worked!!!
that reminds me that i need to start taking them agian!!!


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mona*
nak

kimberley- in what form did you give your dc magnesium?
glad it worked!!!
that reminds me that i need to start taking them agian!!!

It's Hylands Homeopathic tabs.


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## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

Glad to hear things are improving!!!!!!!


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## momea (Nov 22, 2001)

Hi edamommy,

know this is kinda old but just wanted to say that I finally got to a point when I realized feeling like failure was preferable to disliking/resenting my child.

sleep has been a real issue for me too - especially with my second now that i don't have any nighttime help and it seems as if one or the other is keeping me up for a considerable part of *every* night.

when i get sleep things look a lot better to me - in fact I'm such a better mommy I don't feel like such a failure! I mean if you're exhausted it gets pretty hard to be the patient loving parent we all want to be - so you're bound to feel like a failure. The exhaustion thing creates this negative spiral I think. Not being very clear but - am really tired









so my failure was that I didn't nightwean real gentle. i read so many wonderful posts - people writing little books that they read over and over with their toddlers, you know - all the patience and creativity in the world kind of stuff. I just simply needed to be done and didn't have the energy or whatever I needed to DO that. And we're okay. I wish it had been gentle and she had gone along with my idea but she hated it and hated any cut back in nursing. I nightweaned her at about 2 1/2. It was ugly. She cried. I cried. I yelled. I was not ap wonderful mama at all. But when I finallly got some sleep I tell you I was a different person. Mind you - she wasn't sleeping through the night or anything but the difference was I felt rested. Big difference.

So I guess I'm saying that even if you have to "compromise" your ap standards on this issue it might be worth it ... because becoming an exhaustion monster will definitely make you compromise your ap standards.

Here's to some sleep for you ...

Eve


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Edamommy, I have only read your initial post in this thread. I have not read anything else, but I want to reply because I don't know if or when I will have the time to read the whole thing.

If your son is 22 months old and you are chronically exhausted from nursing all night and feel like you are at the edge of sanity, stop nursing your son all night. Your son is not an infant who needs to nurse frequently for nutrition. He is a toddler who is nursing for pleasure and comfort. There is nothing wrong with that ... unless it's unhinging you, which it sounds like it is. Your son is old enough to be shown new ways to gain the comfort he needs at night.

I think of AP as family-centered more than child-centered. The best thing for a child is to have happy parents who don't feel like they are martyrs. I think that a lot of the moms who get AP-burnout do so because it's hard to make the switch from meeting baby's every need/want to more of a balance between meeting the child's needs/wants and meeting the mothers needs/wants. I know I struggled with that a lot, and I continue to work on that adjustment even as my daughter turns 3 this month. Just because you are a mom doesn't mean you are no longer a person with needs and desires, a person who deserves to have those needs and desires attended to. You are as important as your child is.

The happiest families are those in which everyone's needs and wants are in balance and nobody is getting shorted because someone else's needs and wants are considered automatically more important.

It's ok to help your little guy start the transition from baby to child. It's ok for you to determine what you need to be a sane, functioning momma and take steps to get that.

Being in tune with your child, which is the essence of AP, does not mean that you no longer matter.

I hope that I have been able to give you some support. If you would like to talk more, please feel free to PM me.

Namaste!


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## Mona (May 22, 2003)

FWIW, my 22 mo old ate very little solids, and really did depend on night nursings for nutrition. even at 25 months, she eats much better, but w/ a sensitive system, she and her immune system rely on my breastmilk.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Edamommy, I did manage to wade through this thread. I am glad to hear that Baylor is sleeping better and that the magnesium seems to be working.

My biggest suggestion would be that, if the sleeping/night nursing/exhaustion thing becomes a problem again, let your husband start handling more nighttime parenting.

My husband struggled long and hard to convince my daughter that "Daddies are just as good as Mommies," as he puts it. I supported him in this even when my daughter clearly *wanted* (not needed) Daddy to get the heck out of the way so that she could get to Momma because 1) I needed some breaks and 2) I do believe that, for older babies and toddlers, Daddies are just as good as Mommies, and although my daughter might have a preference for Momma, she was not being harmed by having Daddy.

I think we need to allow our kids to have preferences (for example, nursing all night) and to express anger (for example, screaming) when they don't get their preference, but I also think that we needn't be controlled by a child's desires.

Namaste!


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## kchoffmann (Aug 16, 2004)

I stopped reading at, like, post 50. But I did manage to read that Baylor's sleeping better. That's wonderful news.

I just wanted to add: a possible mistake in the AP-level of paying attention to our children's needs is to think that just because a toddler is crying at night for nursies every hour, that he *needs* those nursies. Our lives got a lot better when I admitted that my toddler didn't need nursies every hour. What he really needed was sleep. This led to our own version of sleep learning, which included nightweaning. Now it's not just me who feels better. He's so much happier now that he's not so sleep deprived. This, in my opinion, is filling his needs better than continuing to nurse him constantly at night.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Just an update from me....
this week (so far) in a nutshell...

I've started giving baylor a magnesium supplement (homeopathic). In the last 4 days he's slept TWO NIGHTS without waking until 5ish or 6ish AM!!! He has NEVER NEVER NEVER ever slept thru the night. He didn't even stir to nurse. It's like a freeeeeeeeekin' miracle. He has still had a few dreams, but not enough to wake him up. It's really nice. I cannot believe that he has slept two full nights. cannot believe it!


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## michelle1k (Jul 7, 2002)

Edamommy, which magnesium homeopathic Rx did you give him?

Warmly,
Michelle - thinking that she could use this info for her little night-waking monster too!


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michelle1k*
Edamommy, which magnesium homeopathic Rx did you give him?

Warmly,
Michelle - thinking that she could use this info for her little night-waking monster too!

Hylands Nerve Tonic. It says to give 2 tabs for child so I called them and they advised 1-2 tabs is fine for 2 year old weighing 24lbs.


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## DandelionBouquet (Apr 27, 2004)

I haven't read all the responses, but have you thought about food allergies at all, dairy, gluten, food dye, etc.? I mean, perhaps it's just personality, maybe even some kind of disorder, like sensory issues or something, but it just seems a little excessive for just a high-needs child, KWIM?

Sorry if this wasn't helpful.

Maggie

ETA: I just saw your update and I'm so happy for you guys!!!


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DandelionBouquet*
I haven't read all the responses, but have you thought about food allergies at all, dairy, gluten, food dye, etc.? I mean, perhaps it's just personality, maybe even some kind of disorder, like sensory issues or something, but it just seems a little excessive for just a high-needs child, KWIM?

Sorry if this wasn't helpful.

Maggie

ETA: I just saw your update and I'm so happy for you guys!!!










HMMM--- do you know any hn babes? Because he's pretty textbook! And, it's 3am, after him waking every hour to fuss or nurse or just kicking me and NOT being awake... I've given up on the sleep.







:


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## DandelionBouquet (Apr 27, 2004)

No, my girl is not hn, but I've heard a lot of women describe their hn babies and I just don't see a two-year-old waking up every hour as normal hn. Sorry the magnesium doesn't seem to be working anymore. I think it would at least be worth checking into allergies if you haven't already.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Thanks. Well, maybe I'll chock this up to MY bad night... He went to sleep at 8:30. He didn't awake until midnight. Then awoke at 1, 2 and 3... when I finally just got up. He's been sleeping soundly w/ dh ever since and it's now 5am. hmmmm

as far as HN babies go- there's really no limit on what's "normal" for a truly hn baby. I think a lot of people may call their children "hn", when in actuality they are not!!

btw- when he was an infant he was tested for allergies. And I did tests w/ my food intake and breastmilk too... he's fine.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

My DC (who's not HN) woke every hour occasionally at two. She still does at 3+ but just needs to touch me and she'll go back.

I hope you get some sleep, mama.


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