# gift-giving when children are not behaving??



## freestyler (Jan 28, 2005)

We have been having some real issues about the kids not listening, not doing their jobs around the house, being disrespectful and talking back and doing all sorts of other undesirable behaviors. We have been implementing more natural consequences and other GD approaches, but still....they have a really long way to go!! Just today my daughter was being incredibly rude and calling me a bunch of names, and being really disobedient as well about routine household stuff and things. Just a whole BUNCH of disrespect and button-pushing from them: that's what we're getting right now. It is really crappy. Especially when we're trying to be the best parents we can and provide them with the opportunities to really enjoy themselves and be enriched in many ways.

My question is: Would you still do Christmas or other gift-giving when the kids have been REALLY acting out? I'm inclined NOT TO. I mean, in the real world, if you call someone a jerk and a stinker, they are not gonna turn around and give you presents 48 hours later. They're gonna be PO'ed and probably ignore you for a while! Now I cannot ignore the kids, but do I really have to give them gifts when for the last few months their behavior has been pure, unadulterated garbage? It's not like they have a god-given right to get extra STUFF right now, is it? I feel like they should know that I'm fed up, and angry with their behavior, and have been pushed too far. DH says, Aw just have Christmas anyway, but I feel like it is not the right approach. They need to behave better. Their behavior is sickening and just keeps getting worse. Should I just hang onto the presents and maybe give them for birthdays instead? It makes me feel ill to think of doing all that wrapping and fussing for kids who won't even obey when it is time to set the table or pick up their toys or hang up their jackets. GAG. What would you all do? ??


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## Annikate (Aug 2, 2005)

I don't know how old your dcs are but my initial impression from reading your post is that there isn't much *partnership* going on at your house between you & your dh and your kids. It sounds very much like *us* vs. *them to me.
Perhaps this is the reason for the behavior? Just a thought.
Of course I would still do Christmas despite all that you've said. Maybe you could all sit down together and come up with a family plan. I just wouldn't *take away* the holiday. In our house (and my dds are still little) the emphasis is not on the gift-giving anyway and I hope it never turns into being only about that.
Have a good holiday and enjoy your family.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I would not make Christmas gifts contigent on setting the table, putting toys away, or hanging up thier jackets. Or anything for that matter. I think it would make for some very bitter kids that will probably be even less likely to do the things you want them to do. Of course, I am not of the thought that kids should do anything that is not important to them....like say setting the table (we eat buffet style when no one wants to set the table)....so you might not want to take my advice


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Are you wanting them to want to work with you or are you wanting to punish them for current and past behavior?

Pat


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## gribbit (Aug 30, 2004)

I would still give them presents. In my opinion behavior is ususally the result of many different factors. I think that if a child is behaving in a certain way, it is worth trying to find out what is going on in his/her life that may be causing the behavior. Holiday time can be stressful for kids just like it is for adults. I also don't think that taking away things to teach kids about the "real world" is effective. When the time comes, kids will do just fine in the real world. What they need most from their parents is to feel loved and understood. By not giving them presents during the holidays you are running the risk that they will feel rejected and unloved. That doesn't seem to be the point you are trying to get across. I am not sure how old your kids are. If they are old enough is it possible for you to sit down with them and explain how you feel and ask them how they feel and what may be going on with them? Perhaps that will shed some light on whats happening? Anyway, those are just my thoughts on this.. I am interested in what others think..

michelle


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## delicious (Jun 16, 2003)

i would give the gifts. i got my kids gifts because i wanted to, not because they behaved a certain way.

sorry things are rough for you guys right now. hopefully some of the GD stuff will help you out!


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

I wouldn't make Christmas contingent on being "naughty" or "nice."

Even if you were wanting to use Christmas as a reward or taking away Christmas as a punishment, using it for behaviors that have been occuring and occurred months, or even just hours ago, is too long a period of time between the behavior and the consequence for it to be effective, really. It will just make your kids feel bad, and probably make you feel bad, too, and it won't effect their behavior, except to possibly subdue them for a few hours with sadness, grief, and shame.

It might be worthwhile to talk about what exactly is happening by describing a typical event or series of problematic behaviors, noting what happened before, during, and what consequence you gave them, if you wanted to. People might be able to help give you some ideas for getting them back on track.

Also, like a previous poster said, the holidays is a stressful time for both kids and adults, leading to an increase in difficult behavior at a time when parents feel less patient to deal with it. Things will probably settle down and get better even if you choose to do nothing but ignore the behaviors for a while. Hang in there.


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## kamilla626 (Mar 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie*
It will just make your kids feel bad, and probably make you feel bad, too, and it won't effect their behavior, except to possibly subdue them for a few hours with sadness, grief, and shame.

...or anger.

For a lot of mamas here, including me, GD means relying less (or not at all) on punitive measures. Taking away a huge piece of their holiday may give them more "material" to lash out with. Even if it does change their behavior, the change would most likely be temporary. It doesn't address the underlying issues, and could create more.


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## Gracefulmom (Apr 25, 2002)

We're having exactly that problem at our house, too. And I've had thoughts of not giving out the gifts, too.

But... we will be opening gifts.

Because 1- forgiveness/grace are BIG deals in our family: our mission statement, I'd say, 2- they get so many gifts from other people that I can't always be on top of it, and 3- they're excited with all this celebration going on and I can't expect them to just "behave" all the time.

We'll have plenty of time to calm things down after the new year.

*Good idea about serving buffet style... I'm going to start that!


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

I wouldn't deny them gifts for being lazy about chores but the name calling is another story imo.







There's just no way I go out and buy toys for a kid that treated me like dirt. Nope. Wouldn't happen. If I were you I'd put that money towards a nice family activity for Xmas or you could take the kids out to do voluteer work. I wouldn't create a "punishment" for them by not buying presents, I'd say "we are going to do something different this year and do something together as a family to reconnect with eachother."


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## alicia622 (May 8, 2005)

I'd still do Christmas. Taking away Christmas presents is not a natural consequence for poor behavior. It'll just create more problems. Figure out another way to teach them to be responsible members of the family.


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

I hope you can find a way to reconnect with your kids. Talk to them about how your feeling and LISTEN to them about how they are feeling. No one acts the way you are describing if they are feeling heard and loved. I know you love them, it just sounds like you are trapped in an adversarial relationship and it doesn't have to be that way.

"How to Talk. . . " and "Kids, Parents and Power Struggles" might help.

I hope you will have christmas and use it as a time to connect as a family and start the new year with a new plan







Life is way to short to be so angry with each other!!


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I would definately go ahead with the gifts. Not giving them would likely cause some pretty nasty, negative, shameful feelings. And that isn't going to move anyone toward a better place or state of mind.


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## solstar (May 26, 2002)

I would give the gifts. If I didn't when my kids misbehaved they would never get anything!

My mom told me about someone at work who puts the presents under the tree a month before hand and every time her daughter acts up she takes one away!


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mz_libbie22*
I wouldn't deny them gifts for being lazy about chores but the name calling is another story imo.







There's just no way I go out and buy toys for a kid that treated me like dirt. Nope. Wouldn't happen. If I were you I'd put that money towards a nice family activity for Xmas or you could take the kids out to do voluteer work. I wouldn't create a "punishment" for them by not buying presents, I'd say "we are going to do something different this year and do something together as a family to reconnect with eachother."

ITA . . . I mean, as a parent you're human too so you're feelings do get hurt. You're entitled to not go out of your way to be so giving to someone who systematically hurts your feelings or disregards you. I'm not the most GD person out there but I think in this situation I'd feel a bitter if I gave out gifts and the hurtful behavior just continues or escalated. So that being said, I'd go with the suggestion to find a Christmas activity to do that will allow the children to talk to you openly and honestly (and vice versa) and that will allow you all to get to the bottom of all this and that, perhaps most importantly you all will enjoy. Also, IMHO. there needs to be an agreement between you and your dp about how you guys should deal with the situation at hand so that he children know it's not just one of you saying what will happen when the children don't do their household duties or are disrespectful and that both of you are on the same page when figuring out how to discipline. Like a pp said: it's not an "us vs. them" dichotomy and you would do well to keep that in mind whatever you decide to do. If Mom is not happy, how can anyone in the family claim to be? If the children are not happy . . . same rule applies.


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## freestyler (Jan 28, 2005)

Solstar--she puts them under the tree a month beforehand and takes one away if the kid misbehaves? ?? I think I would misbehave even as an ADULT if I had to sit there looking at gifts for a month without opening them. It would make me go loco.









I seriously appreciate all the feedback from you mamas. I'm mulling it all over....


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## No2Circ (Aug 10, 2005)

I HATE gifts being tied to good behavior. They're GIFTS, for heavens sake. Perhaps you could buy yourself a Christmas present.........a book titled "Unconditional Parenting."


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I am a much more rule oriented parent than many here but I would NEVER tie presents to behavior.

I just don't see what that would accomplish other than turning a realtionship at home to one which is more appropriate for a work place.

Yes, at work, we may lose out when we do not perform well (behave). But home is not work.

But gifts should be given out of love. Not as payment for good behavior.

At home the love is unconditional. For me, I have many expectations for my children. I make the rules. But I don't feel the need to punish.

The fact of the failure to meet expectations is there. You don't need to do anything else.


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alicia622*
I'd still do Christmas. Taking away Christmas presents is not a natural consequence for poor behavior. It'll just create more problems. Figure out another way to teach them to be responsible members of the family.


She wouldn't be taking them away though because she hasn't given them. Nobody is entitled to a bunch of presents on Xmas. Seems to me they need a lesson in *how to be thankful for what you already have*. That's my opinion anyway.

Having everyone make the gifts themselves could be a good "middle ground" alternative though.


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## Satori (Jan 30, 2003)

To the OP:

I know how you feel, my dd was being a total monster the last week and I was seriously ready to follow the lead of that guy who ebay'd his kids xmas gifts because they were so rotton (they were teens). Thankfully I was able to figure out the problem and her behavior is getting better (was sneaking dairy and she's allergic to it). Maybe figuring out the root of your DC's problem would be a better solution then taking away gifts?


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## mumto2 (Apr 30, 2005)

I just have to say that about this time last week I was in your exact position. I just didn't like the kids, their behaviour was shocking and embarrassing and just plain rude. (Spoiled my dh called them).

Well I started the 1 2 3 Magic and I swear I have different kids, I would not have believed the dramatic turn around was possible. Ds even thanked me for tea last night and said it was the best ever. Dh was gobsmacked.

We have no tension in the house now, we enjoy being with each other and I feel it is a gentle way to go because we ALL feel good about ourselves, our relationships and each other. Taking that tension out of the air has been a miracle. Try it out 1 2 3 Magic by Thomas Phelan. I think there is a website by the same name.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Some of you act as though your kids just wake up in the morning and decide to be jerks. As though each act that meets with your disapproval is a concious choice on their part. And punishment is the "logical consequence" of such a theory. After all, if you make life miserable enough, surely your children will choose to be good, right?

I mean, really. Witholding gifts because they are "being bad"?? Is that seriously why you give gifts? To control their behaviour? Frankly, the true spirit of this season would be honoured by giving gifts despite their behaviour, because you love them *unconditionally*, that being the operative word.

Your children are acting the way they are because there are emotions underlying those actions that aren't being dealt with appropriately. The kids may not understand why they are feeling so negative, or they may know but not feel able to talk to you about it. These are CHILDREN we are talking about here. Our job as parents is to teach them, not act as though they are adults, with equal maturity and psychological power to us. To make statements like "well, I sure dont' appreciate beign treated like that so I'm gonna show them" is ridiculous. If they don't appreciate the way you treat them, what is their recourse? Not equal to yours, I'm willing to bet.

The right thing to do is see their "mis"behaviours as a cry for help, a sign that all is not right with their world. Recognize that these are immature human beings who are not always able to handle their own emotions, or even recognize them. Be the teacher you are supposed to be and find ways to help them.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mz_libbie22*
She wouldn't be taking them away though because she hasn't given them. Nobody is entitled to a bunch of presents on Xmas. Seems to me they need a lesson in *how to be thankful for what you already have*. That's my opinion anyway.

Having everyone make the gifts themselves could be a good "middle ground" alternative though.

Are you kidding?

First of all, if Christmas is about anything, it is about being Christian. I am ASSumming that is you are celebrating it, then you are Christian or at least sort of. If not, skip my post. The holiday is about giving, loving, forgiving, etc..... I really do not think taking the presents away shows any of these things. It shows bitterness, resentfulness, and selfishness. Not a great "lesson" as it seems people think these kids need a "lesson" which i do not even agree with to begin with.

Secondly, how is using homemade gifts as a "punishment" a good thing? I made everyone's gifts this year....the entire internal and external family's. Am I punishing someone? Or did i think people might actually be delighted to get them.


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## alicia622 (May 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mz_libbie22*
She wouldn't be taking them away though because she hasn't given them.

Not giving gifts is still NOT a natural or logical consequence of negative behavior.

I agree with the pp who said there was more going on then the kids just deciding not to behave one day.

I also think the op should do some more research about GD because her initial post spoke of disobedient and not obeying...those are not very GD imo. Also, it takes time to change and see changes. You will have to change before the kids do.

Happy Holiday


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

OP, I'm guessing you won't read this until after the holiday but I really want to say it anyway. I think you will all have a much nicer, more enjoyable holiday if you go ahead and give the gifts. Focus on loving each other, on sharing with each other, on appreciating each other. Positive changes are unlikely to happen because you don't give gifts, you'd only all have a tough day. Enjoy your holiday, enjoying giving gifts to the children you love, try to connect with your kids, have fun.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Piglet68, you rock!

I give gifts to people because I care about them, not to control them.

Really, do you think your kids will be more pleasant to be around if you give them gifts and try to give them a great Christmas, or if you take back all the gifts and make them suffer?

Dar


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## freestyler (Jan 28, 2005)

Thanks Sledg, I appreciate the advice, and I appreciate that you put it in a *non-judgmental* and *non-flaming* way. I hate when I put my question out there and kinda, you know, let it all hang out in a trusting sort of way, looking for good feedback, and totally get flamed. Or I hate it when I see others get similarly criticized when they are asking questions too. I mean, we're all trying, right? The learning curve is pretty steep with lots of things in life, especially parenting. It is just plain hard sometimes! Thanks for your thoughts though.

I think we've decided to scale back. Still give nice gifts, but hold off on the one or two more large/expensive things we had in mind (a boom box and an elaborate wooden toy---I think those can wait.) We'll still give the other toys---art supplies, a little wooden sailboat for our son to sail in the bathtub, a sewing kit, and other similar stuff. I think everyone will be happy with that. And by the way, there is no question about our affection for our kids being unconditional, of course it is unconditional, but jeez, we're also HUMAN, hello, and maybe when people are not being kind to us and each other, it doesn't make us feel quite so generous, period.

It is not always possible to get to the root of children's behavior patterns. Also, not always desirable! If we are doing all we can to be the best parents we can, and things like food allergies and stuff have been ruled out, then at some point, the ball is back in their court. If they are using undesirable behavior to test limits or to get extra attention in a negative way, they need to learn that it is not approriate. We are always careful to give them lots of positive, and individual attention, and always have, so that they do not resort to bad behavior for attention. Mostly, I feel that it has worked. At some point, there is nothing more that you can do than just say, Look, everyone is entitled to the same respect and kindness and gentleness. And let them figure out how to BE kind and gentle. They can watch us for cues, right?


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *freestyler*
They can watch us for cues, right?

I think the point is that they already are. They have watched inscrutably since birth.

Happy Holidays. For everyone...


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## freestyler (Jan 28, 2005)

Yes, that is my point. They have always watched us for cues, and knowing that, I feel they will continue to learn that way. That is why I say we cannot do much more than we are already doing. We also watch them for cues, of course. It's a two-way street!


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Piglet









MAN, it's nice to be back on the GD board after spending the day with extended family.









To the OP: In your first post, it sounded like you had been behaving more punitively toward your children and are trying to adjust that behavior. Is that right? If so, I think a little chaos is to be expected for awhile. If children have been disrespected (and I hope I don't offend with that word... I just personally believe punishment is disrespectful), then they have learned to disrespect and might have a hard time reading your new cues. This doesn't mean that you should allow them to walk all over you. Definitely draw your boundaries, but voice it in terms of how you're feeling. Are you letting them know how you feel? Saying things like, "I feel horrible when you call me names. I want to know how you're feeling. I need you to tell me in words that aren't hurtful."

Also, about consequences: If you're "implementing" natural consequences, it would seem that you're actually still punishing. (Natural consequences just occur; they aren't implemented.) This might be something to consider in your approach to them.

Sorry you're having a rough time.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

I say go for giving the presents and enjoying Christmas as day to celebrate Christ's birth and be a model of Christ to them, in forgiveness, second chances, , etc.

On Monday, start posting specific questions here, look at the book recommendation thread and work on each "issue" bit by bit. Changes take time when trying to learn to GD (I was not always GD myself, but have learned *so* much here and from books recommended here, Playful Parenting being my favorite).

There are surely issues going on in your family right now that need to be addressed for everyone there to feel respected, loved, happy, whole, etc.

I am sure you are a mama doing your best to do right by your children, I know I am, and I think most people posting here are, we are all at different paths of becoming the mothers we want to be.

I hope you and your children are able to have a Blessed Christmas and really enjoy each other and give thanks!


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
Are you kidding?

First of all, if Christmas is about anything, it is about being Christian. I am ASSumming that is you are celebrating it, then you are Christian or at least sort of. If not, skip my post. The holiday is about giving, loving, forgiving, etc..... I really do not think taking the presents away shows any of these things. It shows bitterness, resentfulness, and selfishness. Not a great "lesson" as it seems people think these kids need a "lesson" which i do not even agree with to begin with.

Secondly, how is using homemade gifts as a "punishment" a good thing? I made everyone's gifts this year....the entire internal and external family's. Am I punishing someone? Or did i think people might actually be delighted to get them.


No, I'm not Christian but yes I do still celebrate christmas. Since you completely misinterpreted what I was saying I'll reply anyway. If you would read the post I wrote before this one you'd see that I wasn't advocating punishment. I don't see how Christmas has to equal presents, that's all. It sounds like they need to learn a lesson in gratitude (but not through punishment like you thought) and they need to reconnect as a family. Spending their money on *things* instead of doing something more productive like volunteering, taking the time and thought to make gifts, or just going out and having fun as a family would be a good solution to defuse the current situation. The OP sounded like she wanted to do something about her children's behavior, and while I'm not for punishing kids, I am all for making them aware that they have much to be thankful for and that getting *stuff* is not the most important thing in life. They can still have a wonderful and happy xmas without presents.







I think sometimes the emphaisis on presents can overshadow the family togetherness aspect of the holiday. Of course this is coming from someone who just saw her sister give her toddler a musical ride on toy for christmas and then proceed to yell at him to get off of it an hour later so she could lock it in a closet. So maybe I'm just







right now.


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## almama (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *freestyler*
My question is: Would you still do Christmas or other gift-giving when the kids have been REALLY acting out? I'm inclined NOT TO. I mean, in the real world, if you call someone a jerk and a stinker,

Wow, you should hear what we are called







I agree that there is usually something else going on/ mixed up with bad habits. I'd still give the gifts, but I would work on a plan to address the issues. Best of luck.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

I would still do some gifts, but if I celebrated xmas and my kids were acting that way, I might not give as much as I would have.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

It seems to me that not giving gifts IS a natural consquence. In real life, people don't go out and buy a gift for someone if that person is being nasty to them. The typical human nature is for the offendee to feel disrespected and hurt, and certainly not inclined to go out an buy a gift. I'm sure there are others that turn the other cheek, but they are a rare breed, indeed.

That being said, I agree that there is a deeper problem, which may be that the family is not connecting. If the kids are old enough, it might not be a bad idea to sit them down, really discuss the name-calling, tell them how it makes you feel and ask how THEY would feel if someone they love treated them that way. And maybe instead of gifts, you could tell them that the money designated for gifts is going to be used toward a fun activity for the whole family... a day or weekend for everyone to reconnect, talk, and have fun. One that the kids have equal say in organizing. Well, those are my thoughts, anway. Good luck! It must be very difficult to hear hateful things.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic*
It seems to me that not giving gifts IS a natural consquence.

I think that's an imposed consequence. Natural consequences happen (through nature) all by themselves.

Someone explained it like this to me once (with toddler potty learning).

Toddler wets her pants - the natural consequence of wetting your pants is .... wet pants.

I might impose diaper time because I don't want to keep changing outfits

or I might help her do what I do when I wet my pants (from sneezing or laughing) and help her change her underwear.

Or I could choose some arbitrary punishment (I wouldn't, of course, though).

Only the first is a natural consequence.


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## alicia622 (May 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ellien C*
I think that's an imposed consequence. Natural consequences happen (through nature) all by themselves.

Someone explained it like this to me once (with toddler potty learning).

Toddler wets her pants - the natural consequence of wetting your pants is .... wet pants.

I might impose diaper time because I don't want to keep changing outfits

or I might help her do what I do when I wet my pants (from sneezing or laughing) and help her change her underwear.

Or I could choose some arbitrary punishment (I wouldn't, of course, though).

Only the first is a natural consequence.

Exactly. I don't think people really are understanding natural and logical consequences. Not giving Christmas gifts is NOT a natural consequence for unwanted behavior. If the child set fire to the bunch of presents- a natural consequence would be no presents because there would be no presents left to give.

If someone wants to be punative, by all means, be punative! Just don't kid yourself that you are being GD about it because you are not.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Okay, that is fair, and I agree with that definition of "natural", as in uncontroled, nature-imposed consequences. But explain to me why human nature is not a natural consequence. I'm not being cheeky.







I really do believe that to go out and buy a gift for someone that I'm angry and hurt with is not natural. It goes against everything that nature has put into me. When we get into forgiveness, then we are going against nature and moving on to nurture, learned social consequences. And I DO believe in forgiveness and encourage it in my daughter, but I don't expect her to automatically forgive me for something I've done that may have hurt her. I respect that she may take some time to process things and need to talk about it at a later date. Just because it's Christmas doesn't change anything. I simply don't agree that it is okay that kids these days feel that it's their RIGHT to have material presents at Christmas. I feel that the "natural" consequences of being so nasty to a parent is that the parent puts the energy into re-connecting, not buying gifts. And I'm sorry, but I really, really do not agree that witholding material gifts is punishment. The long-term "gift" you are giving is teaching your child to be compassionate. That's much more valuable in my book.

And btw, we are leaving in about an hour to go to family for a couple of days, so if I'm MIA on this thread, it's only because I have no internet access.







I'm not trying to start a debate then bolt.







I really want to understand where the line is drawn (which at this point seems quite arbitrary depending on personal opinion). And the fact that I still have to pack and get a shower is why my post is so rambling. Peace to all!


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I think the only way to a caring family is to create togetherness. More Laughter and some fun is what a family needs when the going gets rough. With-holding gifts, love, or time, or punishing creatively can't bring a family together when they need each other the most.

Cranking children might need more parental quidance (working together etc), less stimulation, more protein, a gentle routine etc. I can't see how a tactic based on punishment helps a family be kinder to each other , or help the members understand what working together as a team means.

Some families have stressful holidays --plus the world-at-large is working against you (too much homework, too much candy at school, too much tv, overstimulating store runs, parents frettting about money, parents expecting children to do too much on their own because they are busy etc). I don't think kids are less affected by these influences than adtults. In fact, they are much more vulnerable. Sometimes it's best to hunker down for a couple of mental health days of popcorn, scrabble, books, snuggly movies, dinner at the table with candles for a couple of days, with the phone off, and no gaint chores. That might be hard to do, but i think it's probably going to be more effective than punishments.

It might also be time to tell the children that past Christmaseshave been overblown and stressful, and now we're going to tone it down. Kids act out their 'overwhelmed-ness' differently from adults. Kids want to be punished about as much as adults do. Anger only begets anger.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic*
Okay, that is fair, and I agree with that definition of "natural", as in uncontroled, nature-imposed consequences. But explain to me why human nature is not a natural consequence. I'm not being cheeky.







I really do believe that to go out and buy a gift for someone that I'm angry and hurt with is not natural.


Well for me the answer is simple. I am NEVER hurt by the things my kids say to me. I am just not. I beleive that children say these things to their parents because they are angry at limits being imposed, or to try to see if a limit will be imposed, or to seek attention or just becasue on some level they want to know that nothing will shake our feelings for them.

If one of my dd said to me "I hate you" my response was always, "I love you and am sorry that you are feeling mad/upset/hurt about ____" because that was always where that was coming from. Or if they said something like "you are stupid." I would say "I am sorry you feel that way. I know you are mad/uset hurt because of X, but we are doing that/asking you to do that/saying that because of X"

None of them ever said it past age 4 because I think they knew that it was not going to get much of a response from me.

As for misbehavior or disobedience, I am not like some here.

I do EXPECT them to behave and obey for the most part. BUT if they don't I am not mad at them or punish them or anything.

I mean children are simply not built to always behave and or comply. They just are not. Especially around their parents whom they should feel free to let out their "worst" selves. You don't have to like this behavior, but on some level you just have to accpet that it is part of being human and with children its going to show itself more.

To me its just not very mature to take your children's behavior personally. They aren't misbehaving to show that they don't like you or respect you. I believe that we owe our children a good deal more than to react to them like we would to a friend who says or does something to us that we don't like. We owe it to them to understand that there is no reason to be hurt.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
Well for me the answer is simple. I am NEVER hurt by the things my kids say to me. I am just not. I beleive that children say these things to their parents because they are angry at limits being imposed, or to try to see if a limit will be imposed, or to seek attention or just becasue on some level they want to know that nothing will shake our feelings for them.

If one of my dd said to me "I hate you" my response was always, "I love you and am sorry that you are feeling mad/upset/hurt about ____" because that was always where that was coming from. Or if they said something like "you are stupid." I would say "I am sorry you feel that way. I know you are mad/uset hurt because of X, but we are doing that/asking you to do that/saying that because of X"

None of them ever said it past age 4 because I think they knew that it was not going to get much of a response from me.

As for misbehavior or disobedience, I am not like some here.

I do EXPECT them to behave and obey for the most part. BUT if they don't I am not mad at them or punish them or anything.

I mean children are simply not built to always behave and or comply. They just are not. Especially around their parents whom they should feel free to let out their "worst" selves. You don't have to like this behavior, but on some level you just have to accpet that it is part of being human and with children its going to show itself more.

To me its just not very mature to take your children's behavior personally. They aren't misbehaving to show that they don't like you or respect you. I believe that we owe our children a good deal more than to react to them like we would to a friend who says or does something to us that we don't like. We owe it to them to understand that there is no reason to be hurt.


LOL I hear that. My kids don't hurt my feelings. A 2 yr old calling me a 'poopie head' is funny and a 16 yr old saying "You old hippie' can be funny, but is also a signal of sorts. I just do not take these things personally. *At all*. Sometimes I feel crazy--I read on message boards about people being devasted when kids say certain things to them and I don't get it. It's not personal! It's about what is churning in a kid. We love them the most, they feel most safe with us, so they tend to let it all out when with us. I take it as a compliment.

Poopie-head, old hippie etc means my child is stressed and needing TLC. That's all. I don't even consider this in the 'put down' category, which is something else, but also involves inner turmoil, and needs to be addressed in a loving, not punitive, way.

Children need the most when they are the most cranky. And sometimes it's best to pretend you never heard a word, rather than spiral the innocent grumblings of a child into something completely out of control.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
LOL I hear that. My kids don't hurt my feelings. A 2 yr old calling me a 'poopie head' is funny and a 16 yr old saying "You old hippie' is also funny. I just do not take these things personally. *at all*. Sometimes I feel crazy--I read on message boards about people being devasted when kids say certain things to them and I don't get it. It's not personal at all. It's about what is churning in a kid. We love them the most, they feel most safe with us, so they tend to let it all out when with us. I take it as a compliment. Poopie-head, old hippie means my child is stressed and needing TLC. That's all. I don't even consider this in the 'put down' category. Which is something else, but also involves inner turmoil, and needs to be addressed in a loving, not punitive, way.

Children need the most when they are the most cranky.

I agree 100 percent!!!!! Exactly

I too don't get it when people take what their kids say to them personally. I think they simply don't comprehend the nature of the parent child relationship.

And its interesting because I believe I fall much more on the mainstream rule setting side of parenting that you do. But I think on this fundamental level we are the same.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Definitely give them gifts.









Ditto the other responses.

~Nay


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Well my thirty year old brother still calls my mom a stupid bitch among other things whenever they are around eachother so in my experience that kind of disrespect isn't something a kid will just grow out of. A kid saying something in anger is one thing but the OP seemed to be saying that it had become an everyday occurance, which is a serious problem in my opinion and I don't see why she should be told to just get over it.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

and I hope whatever your decession was you had a merry Christmas. I kinda read the OP but that was really it. Personally I wouldn't not make Christmas gifts congient on behavior (though I'd be less motivated to figure out how we could budget something big KWIM?) However I also wouldn't allow that behavior to countinue. Its rude crude and totally unnecessary. Would I let it "bother me"? probably not (haven't delt with it so I can't give an honest reaction) it still doesn't need to countinue. I'd seperate this from "christmas" because even if you decide to not give your still not addressing the real issue.

Deanna


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

I think some mamas have offered some great thoughts. I agree gifts should be about love and unconditional not contingent on behavior expectations or anything else. Look for underlying needs, talk to them about why they are acting like they are, discuss your expectations again. Why have they said they are acting in a way you do not expect? (ETA: I also agree with Piglet's perspexctive that they may not be able to verbalize why. I just always ask as to make emotions an important part of our discussions even though my next step is not contingent on the answer or my expectation of what the answer should be)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumto2*
Try it out 1 2 3 Magic by Thomas Phelan. I think there is a website by the same name.

I disagree with this suggestion on 1 2 3 Magic. This system is time out based (correct?), which I believe to have a lot of disadvantages to gentle discipline based ideas. I do not think time outs are effective, and I think they can be problematic.

Quote:

According to many educators and psychologists, however, time-out is not as innocent as it seems and is, moreover, an emotionally harmful way to discipline children. In fact, the National Association for the Education of Young Children includes the use of time-out in a list of harmful disciplinary measures, along with physical punishment, criticizing, blaming, and shaming [2].

Quote:

Children under the age of seven simply do not have the capability to process words in the same way that adults do [3]. Concrete experience and perceptions of reality impact more strongly than language. Being isolated and ignored is interpreted as "Nobody wants to be with me right now. Therefore I must be bad and unlovable," and no loving words, however well intended, can override this feeling of rejection.

Nothing is more frightening for a child than the withdrawal of love. Along with the fear come insecurity, anxiety, confusion, anger, resentment, and low self-esteem. Time-out can also cause embarrassment and humiliation, especially when used in the presence of other children. In the child's realm of experience, time-out is nothing short of punitive.
Originally published in _Mothering._ And found here http://www.awareparenting.com/timeout.htm An excellent read

Also no singular disciplinary tactic will change a child. Taking away presents or not giving presents will not effectively change your kids into perfect children. It is more about learning.

I also really like this page:
http://www.awareparenting.com/twenty.htm
My mantra
*"Young children have intense feelings and needs, and are naturally loud, curious, messy, willful, impatient, demanding, creative, forgetful, fearful, self-centered, and full of energy. Try to accept them as they are."*

I also have to say I totally agree with this post:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
Some of you act as though your kids just wake up in the morning and decide to be jerks. As though each act that meets with your disapproval is a concious choice on their part. And punishment is the "logical consequence" of such a theory. After all, if you make life miserable enough, surely your children will choose to be good, right?

I mean, really. Witholding gifts because they are "being bad"?? Is that seriously why you give gifts? To control their behaviour? Frankly, the true spirit of this season would be honoured by giving gifts despite their behaviour, because you love them *unconditionally*, that being the operative word.

Your children are acting the way they are because there are emotions underlying those actions that aren't being dealt with appropriately. The kids may not understand why they are feeling so negative, or they may know but not feel able to talk to you about it. These are CHILDREN we are talking about here. Our job as parents is to teach them, not act as though they are adults, with equal maturity and psychological power to us. To make statements like "well, I sure dont' appreciate beign treated like that so I'm gonna show them" is ridiculous. If they don't appreciate the way you treat them, what is their recourse? Not equal to yours, I'm willing to bet.

The right thing to do is see their "mis"behaviours as a cry for help, a sign that all is not right with their world. Recognize that these are immature human beings who are not always able to handle their own emotions, or even recognize them. Be the teacher you are supposed to be and find ways to help them.

Well said.


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## The Lucky One (Oct 31, 2002)

ITA w/Piglet68!

Give your kids their gifts. Spend the day talking and playing with them. Really focusing on them. Let them know you think they are special.

I don't know how old your kiddos are, but chances are, they know already that you are upset by their behavior. Knowing that, it may be healing for them to see that despite your frustratiohn with them, you want them to have their special things and more importantly, want to love and spend time with them.


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## spin462002 (May 7, 2005)

This is the first year ever I have not given my two nephews gifts for Christmas. This is because
1. they have treated me badly all year
2. they are both adults now, 18 and 24
3. I would be a hypocrite if I gave them gifts and pretended everything was ok, because it isn't!
4. I have told them clearly that I love them but will not tolerate their abusive behaviour.

I would never threaten or deprive children of Christmas. Adults are a completely different matter. I do not contact or give presents to adult people who are abusive towards me.(unless they apologise or attempt to make amends)
This currently includes my ex husband, my mother and my sister.

Children require firm boundaries and unconditional love. I do not believe bad behaviour always signals some deep and meaningful problem. Children will test their boundaries because they are intelligent and they can! It's normal and healthy and how we react to it can make all the difference to their continuing a behaviour or not.

If my children were rude or disrespectful to me I would check I had their eye contact, lower my voice and say firmly and without emotion, "do not speak to me like that. You are not allowed to say that to me". No long explanations or emotional responses, just straight from the hip with no put downs. I would do that if it happened again too, but it rarely happened more than once.(even if they have "pushed your buttons" don't ever let them see that. then they know they have won, whatever the outcome)

I also believe any consequences of any behaviour need to be timely and not delayed. Threatening to cancel Christmas, or a birthday party or anything longer than two hours away (like their favourite TV show that evening) defeats the purpose of any gentle discipline at all. Children have short memories and need immediate short term consequences. When I was a child my mom would berate me for my alleged misdemeanors for weeks/months/years after the event which I consider emotional abuse. The only justice comes from appropriate discipline (teaching, discipling) preferably immediately. Not "when daddy comes home" either! Deal with it and don't refer to it again. Thats' justice for all!

When children have firm boundaries they feel safe and secure and loved. None of us should tolerate abuse of any kind, it's not normal or acceptable and certainly not healthy for anyone. Staying calm (even if you are acting) is so important.

I have found over the years that my own doubts about my ability to parent have made me waiver in my convictions about acceptable behaviour. I have felt guilty for asking for respect and dignity from anyone, especially my children. As mothers we have to know we are doing our best each day, and if we are loving moms struggling to get this child raising thing right then that's the best there is. We all grow and change with our children. I have been mothering for 25 years now and I have relaxed so much in that time and my confidence has grown in myself and my children. I guess that comes from experience and a willingness to always do what is in the best interests of my children. We mothers don't discipline for our own sake, we do it to teach our children how to manage in their adult lives, how to behave acceptably and with respect for others. Basic things that are essential for a well balanced adult.

celebrate Christmas, celebrate life. You deserve respect and dignity. Don't accept anything less.

Lynn
happily still learning, growing and changing every day : )


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## youngnhappymamma (Feb 3, 2002)

wow...I didn't expect so much debate...I guess ther rumors are true that the gd boards can be *hairy* at times...

I hope op had a good Christmas. I highly, HIGHLY recommend you run out and buy "how to talk so kids will listen and how to listen so kids will talk" ...it is brilliant and really helps you to learn how to talk to your children respectfully (not saying you are not...but I think most people don't even realize it when they aren't...) and how to have a better relationship with them. There is a quote that I love (can't remember where from...) that says "a child who feels right, will act right." All children will and should misbehave...it's part of being human and real (we all make mistakes to learn from, etc), but it sounds like more is happening at your house than just a little human misbehavior. PLEASE read the book!!! You will love it!!














s


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## freestyler (Jan 28, 2005)

The Lucky One---I like the way you expressed your ideas. The idea that they still are made to feel special, even when I'm not thrilled with their behavior sometimes, it's a great sentiment and I know I didn't have enough of this growing up. Other mammas said the same thing too, just in different ways, and I thank you all.

Piglet 68---I liked your ideas too, just wished they could have been expressed a *little* more gently...."Some of you act like..." "I mean, really." "Be the teacher you're supposed to be..." Gads, I felt very talked down to, very sort of shamed, very







. If I hadn't red some of your blog, I'd have come away thinking "ugh", but since your blog ideas are so terrific, I think there might still be hope, LOL. Thanks for your input regardless of its style.

Everyone---after reading all your lovely thoughts I did decide to give all the gifts and focus on the unconditional nature of love and how I want my kids to feel loved and not sad/angry/shamed. Cool. We had an awesome holiday. And no, we have never been a punitive family, not at all. My family of origin was like that (they sucked), and I vowed, NEVER. But still, like many of us I still have a ways to go before I'm Mary Poppins or anything,


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## alicia622 (May 8, 2005)

I'm glad the holiday turned out enjoyable for all of you!

This was definately a touchy thread for people- sorry if I was part of you feeling talked down to.


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## freestyler (Jan 28, 2005)

Nope, I don't feel talked down to from your post.







And yes, my question generated a lot more answers and a lot more thought than I expected. I guess this issue brings up a lot of feelings for many of us! Geez, why can't parenting be, uh, simple!


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## lechepatito (May 24, 2005)

To the OP, I'm glad that you guys worked it out and had a nice Christmas - like you said, parenting isn't easy, and we're all trying to figure out the best way to go about it. If only it were as easy as "a spoonful of sugar..."









Quote:


Originally Posted by *mz_libbie22*
Well my thirty year old brother still calls my mom a stupid bitch among other things whenever they are around eachother so in my experience that kind of disrespect isn't something a kid will just grow out of. A kid saying something in anger is one thing but the OP seemed to be saying that it had become an everyday occurance, which is a serious problem in my opinion and I don't see why she should be told to just get over it.

I think the important thing to take from this thread is that no one here has advocated doing *nothing* when children are calling names, acting out, etc. The other posters recommended getting to the root of the problem and reconnecting with the children who are engaged in this behavior - maintaining this kind of attached and connected relationship with a child is not just assuming that the children will outgrow the behavior, it is taking action to work on the relationship, which is a big part of GD for many posters here. I don't know your family at all, but I'd hazard a guess that the relationship between your mom and your brother isn't the greatest, and that would contribute to the name-calling. Hope I'm not stepping on toes here, just wanted to point out this important distinction.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *freestyler*
Nope, I don't feel talked down to from your post.







And yes, my question generated a lot more answers and a lot more thought than I expected. I guess this issue brings up a lot of feelings for many of us! Geez, why can't parenting be, uh, simple!









I know!

I'm so gald you were able to find some hope/help from our thoughts.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

A thirty year old man who calls his mother a stupid b!tch must have a whole lot of crap goping on in his head & heart. That's ridiculous and sad. Has he considered getting some help? Or is his mother really a stupid b? And how does he treat any girlfriend/wife/partner he might have?


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *youngnhappymamma*
wow...I didn't expect so much debate...I guess ther rumors are true that the gd boards can be *hairy* at times

That's no rumor.


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
A thirty year old man who calls his mother a stupid b!tch must have a whole lot of crap goping on in his head & heart. That's ridiculous and sad. Has he considered getting some help? Or is his mother really a stupid b? And how does he treat any girlfriend/wife/partner he might have?


I'm not sure how he treats his girlfriends but he's never had a long lasting relationship. I avoid talking to him as much as possible. I know my mother wasn't the best mom in the world but still...it's not like she's doing anything now that makes her deserving of those names. Actually the reason I stopped talking to him is because he called me a "pig" during a car trip (because I was 7 months pregnant and hungry and wanted to stop for lunch?) He's just a total jerk.







: He needs therapy but I doubt he'll ever get it.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *freestyler*
TPiglet 68---I liked your ideas too, just wished they could have been expressed a *little* more gently...."Some of you act like..." "I mean, really." "Be the teacher you're supposed to be..." Gads, I felt very talked down to, very sort of shamed, very







. If I hadn't red some of your blog, I'd have come away thinking "ugh", but since your blog ideas are so terrific, I think there might still be hope, LOL. Thanks for your input regardless of its style.

I owe you an apology. It was totally not clear from my post, but I was responding to those people who responded to YOU that way, not you. You came here asking for GD help, and I just couldn't believe some of the "advice" you were being given which, IMO, was just totally not GD and not what you came here for. I sort of felt like the board was "letting you down", kwim?

And...it was, like, 3 am and I was up with a boisterous 14 month old who decided to have a midnight party, and VERY tired. I think there was a fair amount of "grump factor" involved.









Regardless, I honestly wasn't directing my comments at you. And I'm very sorry it came out that way. Glad things worked out for you at Christmas.


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## freestyler (Jan 28, 2005)

Thanks for your kind words Piglet, and I totally understand about being delirious in the middle of the night. I just totally get that! Also I don't feel like the board let me down, because I was looking for any input, any sort of diversity at all of ideas. Maybe I would have been almost disappointed to not get diversity? I dunno, to me basically ANYTHING that is on the gentleness continuum is gentle discipline....I mean, after my family of origin and my parents' disaster style of parenting, gads, it's almost like, if you never yell at or strike your kids, it must be gentle discipline, right? I mean, I know that's not true really, but it almost feels like it to me sometimes. What I mean by that is, all the mammas on here look pretty darned gentle to me, after what I lived through as a child! It is ALL better role models than I had as a kid, does that make sense? It's almost like a thirsty person crossing a desert----they see water, it's the greatest thing ever, they don't notice if it has a couple of water bugs on the surface or anything! It is better than what they came from (thirst) and they can't distinguish between perfectly clear water or not---it is all thirst quenching!! I'm trying not to babble, but it's coming out that way!

Thank you all for being great role models. There. I said it. Over and out.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

delete


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

I hope you were able to get to the bottom of this. It'd make me really sad to not feel like giving my kids gifts


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## guest^ (Oct 29, 2002)

Wow!! What a thread!!

OP- I cannot believe all of this advice and flaming was given without telling the ages of your dc! I have a hard time giving advice when I don't know the ages of dc.

Peppermint-





















For my dc's ages, I found your advice to be practical and compassionate. THankyou!!









Hugs to the OP-you put yourtself out there, thereby giving me more courage to do the same.








mp


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## freestyler (Jan 28, 2005)

MamaPoppins---my kids are 8, 5, 3 and 2 months. It was the two "older" ones that were concerning me most. Especially the 8-yr-old. The 5 yr old is just sooo little, but sometimes I tend to lump him together with his sister. They are ALL little, I know. I like your signature--endo survivor---because if that's endometriosis you're referring to, I survived it too!! Six surgeries and endless hormone therapies later, here we are with four beautiful children! As you can see, I took the "pregnancy is the best cure for endometriosis" advice very literally! I think just to be on the safe side I'll see if we can have one more before I'm too old







But sorry, that's rambling from the original topic of this thread big time.

Thanks again to the mammas, all of you.


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