# 7 Year Old Nephew Stole $400.00 From Us: What To DO?



## diamond lil (Oct 6, 2003)

I tried to make this short, but it is impossible. My BIL helped us sell our old Jeep last week while we were on vacation in Dominican Republic. He came over with his family on Sunday once we got home and gave us the money: $2500.00 all in $100 bills. We left the cash laying on the kitchen counter and sort of forgot about it as I busily unpacked and started to do 8+ loads of laundry and grocery shop before I had to go to work Monday morning. DH and BIL went into the garage to work on a car they are repairing. I turned on the TV for 7 yo nephew and he also had a few toys he was playing with. He also went outside for while to play ball with my dog.

A few hours later, a mom from down the street came to the door with her young son. She said that 7 yo nephew had given her son a 100 dollar bill and she was making him return it. My DH was extremely grateful to the mom and thanked her for her honesty and told her she was setting a wonderful example for her son. They left. We (along with BIL, our nephew's dad) confronted 7yo nephew and asked him why he took the 100 dollars. He kept saying he didn't know why. He got a lecture from both DH and BIL and now he is grounded. 7yo didn't seem to show any remorse during the whole exchange. Then DH went to count the rest of the cash and found $300.00 still missing. He confronted nephew again and nephew turns up the money, which was in his pocket. Another round of lecturing ensues, and BIL decides to cancel nephew's birthday party next week at the bowling alley. This is the ONLY time during the course of this drama that nephew showed any emotion, which is a little concerning.

IMO, he is plenty old enough to know right from wrong and knows that stealing is wrong. He never showed any emotion about the situation until BIL told him his b-day party was cancelled.

Nephew is dealing with a new sister being born, and he is probably being ignored at home. I think he stole the money to act out in frustration. He knows right from wrong and he is NOT a bad kid. It is hard to get BIL and SIL to pay more attention to him with the new baby completely overtaking their lives. I feel bad I couldn't entertain him, but I had 1000 things I needed to get done before I went back to work Monday. My DH told me it is "not my job" to entertain the kid and not to feel sorry for him. He is old enough to play by himself and keep himself busy. I just feel bad that he is not getting the attention he needs. Maybe I am making excuses for him?

Thanks so much if you've read this far. I feel bad that his dad revoked the b-day party at the bowling alley, but part of me thinks that there have to be consequences for his actions. $400 isn't small change to us. We need that money to pay off a loan. I just worry that this may be a sign of things to come...


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## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

Well, I don't know if this helps or not. But when I was about that age, I stole something from a friend (some candy). Everyone I have shared that story with usually has a similar story of "stealing" something at around that age. Not every kid does it, but I also think it's not that unusual in my experience.

Also, it can be very hard for a child to understand the amounts of money...what it's worth. The only kids I know who really understand are ones who have an allowance and have to decide to spend or save their own money. To most kids it's an abstract concept how much something is worth. So maybe in his mind he stole 4 things ($100 dollar bills), not $400? And he was experimenting with what it was like to have his own "money"?

One other thing my therapist pointed out. Asking someone "why" immediately puts them on the defensive. She mentioned that it's the most common thing people do to their kids and doesn't help get an answer. It's often hard for them to even know why they do things. Usually it's better to talk about your/their feelings rather than "why". I thought that was an interesting perspective.

Honestly, I don't think it's necessarily a sign of things to come unless it sets up a bad dynamic between the parents and kid. Canceling the birthday party seems like an overreaction to me. I know that he is not your child, but if it were my child, after making him make reparations to you, I would start giving him an allowance so he had his own money and got to experience the "power" of having his own....honor the impulse kind of thing.

jmo but I hope that helps some....
peace,
robyn


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Does he have any idea of the value of money? I'm guessing not if he was distributing money to the largess


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

At seven, I stole some potpourri from a craft store. Note that I did not go on to a life of crime









Still, 400 dollars is hugely different from potpourri


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

I don't know that there's anything more for you to do. It sounds like his parents (his dad, anyway) are handling it.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

If I can offer you something? Coming from a mother whose child is breaking her heart by turning his back on everything she taught him growing up (it isn't stealing in our case) I really don't feel that that "blame the parents" mentality is helpful. It isn't a sign of neglect, it's a sign that a 7yo kid made a bad decision.
What you can do from here is make a conscious effort to let him know that you're not avoiding him, don't think he's a bad lot and have trust in him to get it right next time. You could let him see you budgeting (say, for the baby) and get it into his head that way. You could hang out with him, be there for him whilst he adjusts to life with a sibling, in a small, low-key way.
I think the punishments are appropriate- grounding, to me, is a fairly logical consequence of stealing from friend or family or otherwise away from home and the loss of a birthday party, sadly, is part of that. BUT if you lecture someone, none of that goes in. Honestly. Small boys have a knack of not hearing lectures, somehow. Hippymomma69 is absolutely right about the futility of "why", as well. The best way of getting through to him is to show him where that money came from and what you're doing with it. Make it real for him.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Typical and age appropriate for 7 year olds to steal and lie to push boundaries. it is how we deal with it that is important. I have to go get my dd from school so don't have much time but will coem back to elaborate.


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## LeighB (Jan 17, 2008)

You know, he may not even have realized he was _stealing_. My seven year old foster saw some change on the counter and brought it to show what he had "found."
I agree, canceling a birthday would be harsh and devastating.


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## j924 (May 17, 2005)

My almost 7 yo just stole a pack of Juicy Fruit from the store. SHe knew it was wrong but made a bad decision. She also showed little remorse until she found out she had to go back to the store. It was very abstract before that. I think if a bunch of hundred dollar bills were hanging around those would have caught her eye. The amount seems alarming but it was what was available. Stealing/money are still quite abstract at 7.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I know that my 8 YO wouldn't haven't a clue that a $100 is a lot of money. He might not even notice that is was $100 rather than a $1 unless he was being really attentive to the money because it was a math problem or something. He certainly wouldn't know what $100 would or wouldn't buy at the store. I think you are assuming motives and understanding beyond what a 7 YO is capable of.

I think you bare a fair amount of responsibility here for leaving that much money sitting on the counter. What if something had been spilled or it had otherwise been damaged? Honestly, the child might just have assumed that a pile of money sitting on the counter must have been fake. And even if you were busy, paying a bit of attention to a lonely child would rate a higher priority than laundry and unpacking in my home.

I think everyone in this situation is being much too harsh, assigning motives that may or may not have been there, and expecting way too much understanding from a child.

I think the only thing that you should do is see if you can address the lonely, neglected child part of your description. Can he spend time at your house?


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

I don't know what would be the right thing to do, but I think canceling his birthday party will only make him feel more alienated and alone in his family, yk? Is is possible he did it for attention?


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

My sister did this when she was about this age. Very similar circumstances.

Really, she knew it was wrong. But she also knew money was very important.

She really didn't get it. Even after the parents when ballastic. She still didn't really get it.

I think that your level of expectation of what this is supposed to mean, and what he is supposed to understand isn't in line with reality. He shows you so - he merely gave away $100.00 because he likes his friend. It clearly displays his understanding.


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## thebarkingbird (Dec 2, 2005)

i don't know that you can do anymore but it sounds better than it did at the start. you know? he knows money is important and that taking what's isn't yours is bad but at seven he really might not understand the huge difference between snagging a single and some change and taking large bills. i'm sure he knows the difference but maybe not the reality of the magnitude. he probably is feeling ignored and since you had so much he thought you might not miss it...

i'm not excusing the behavior, just saying i'm not convinced hes headed for a life of hardened crime.


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## offwing (Aug 17, 2006)

Agreeing with those who think this was normal, age-appropriate and not evidence of their being trouble on the way. Plus, I think canceling the b-day party was major overkill and completely without connection to his actions.

And I agree that the adults involved need to own about 50% of the responsibility here for being careless with that much cash and not supervising a 7 year old.

Having said all that, it's not the end of the world, he'll be just fine and make sure you give him a big hug next time you see him.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

offwing- I agree the adults went way overboard here. I am sure the boy's dad was embarrassed and that led him to go overboard, ya know, to ensure that the OP and her DH knew that he thought it was a big deal. I totally understand that aspect.

HOpefully everyone has learned a lesson and can grown because of it.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

It sounds like he was acting like a 7yo, and I wouldn't worry about him "being set up for a life of crime" based on this.

There was a pile of bills on the table and he grabbed 4 of them. I doubt he REALLY understood the difference between $16 or $80 or $400- which is what the numbers would have been if he'd grabbed an equal number of $5 or $20 bills.

How would you have felt about the situation if he'd stolen $16 or $80?

I think his father over reacted, especially since he DID return the money to you fairly promptly. I wouldn't have punished at all for that kind of situation, but instead had a long, heartfelt talk about how stealing is wrong and that $400 is a LOT of money!


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

A 7 yr old doesn't understand the value of money. He probably doesn't get that $100 is much different than a $5.

Cancelling a birthday party is quite severe and more than enough punishment, IMO.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

It seems like, if he's not getting enough time with his parents already, maybe he could be included in the things that DH and BIL are doing? 7 is plenty old enough to be of some help in working on cars, or at least for them to include him in it and teach him about the things they're doing.


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## diamond lil (Oct 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom* 
I think you bare a fair amount of responsibility here for leaving that much money sitting on the counter. What if something had been spilled or it had otherwise been damaged? Honestly, the child might just have assumed that a pile of money sitting on the counter must have been fake. And even if you were busy, paying a bit of attention to a lonely child would rate a higher priority than laundry and unpacking in my home.

I think everyone in this situation is being much too harsh, assigning motives that may or may not have been there, and expecting way too much understanding from a child.

I think the only thing that you should do is see if you can address the lonely, neglected child part of your description. Can he spend time at your house?

This kid spends nearly EVERY weekend at my house. I have toys and puzzles for him to play with. I engage him when I can, but frankly, I think it is more of his father's job to do that than mine. BIL dumps him on me and goes off with my DH to do whatever they want. I have taken nephew places with me, played games with him, but I also work 40+ hours a week on top of being 5 months pregnant and exhausted. That means I have 2 days to grocery shop, do laundry, clean, run all my errands and maybe - just maybe - relax a little.

I have spoken with my BIL in the past about doing more with his kid and things got better after a while. But after the new baby came, he is just more interested on shoving his son off on me or grandma or my other SIL.

As far as the money being on the counter - it shouldn't matter where the heck it was. It wasn't his and he shouldn't have bothered it. Now I feel like I'm going to have to watch him more closely to see if he takes anything else. I hate to do that because we're family and you shouldn't have to do that around family.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

My 8 year old got $18 for her her birthday. A $10 bill to her was a dollar. If she saw a pile of money she would probably play with it. She doesn't go around stealing things but wouldn't recognize it as a big deal to take 4 pieces of paper. She doesn't know what a $100 bill looks like. She does many things on impulse. She wouldn't get why people were so upset and wouldn't show much remorse over her actions.

I think your expectations of a 7 year old child's understanding are not realistic. I don't think this is a sign of something dire or because he is neglected and wants attention.

I do think canceling the birthday party is appropriate because he didn't return the rest of the money after being told it was wrong to take it. It's a harsh lesson but his actions were very serious. If he had given all the money away and it wasn't returned or lost it his parents would have had to reimburse you a lot of money.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Megan~* 
A 7 yr old doesn't understand the value of money. He probably doesn't get that $100 is much different than a $5.

Cancelling a birthday party is quite severe and more than enough punishment, IMO.

I agree with this. I don't think that the fact that he didn't show a lot of emotion is atypical or some sign he is a "bad" kid. He stole 4 bills, which happened to have a large face value, but he may not really have gotten it until after the fact. Losing his birthday party is a big deal.

LOL, I just realized I'm repeating what others have already said. Anyway, it's not that you shouldn't be upset. I know I would in that situation. Trying to get kids of that age to care is hard. Maybe if someone could explain the value of money and show him how much of that money could make a difference. Maybe that is what they are doing with the birthday party, trying to put it in a dollar amount he understands.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

how does taking away the celebration of a child's birth justice? You are in essence saying he is not worth celebrating. How devestating that must be for him.


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

I understand being upset, but I do think you are being a bit hard on him.

My son is 5.5 and recently took some money off the kitchen table .. I didn't even consider it "stealing" .. he had no clue it's value, that it wasn't his, etc.









I seriously doubt your nephew knew the value, otherwise I doubt he would be giving it away to neighbors! That in no way makes it ok that he took something off the counter that didn't belong to him .. but I wouldn't consider it stealing and certainly wouldn't cancel his b'day party. That seems so very harsh and punitive.

I definately think a good talk is in order .. we recently did the same thing with my son .. we explained the value, that we needed that money for groceries, and that he was NOT to touch money that was lying around. I doubt he will do it again, it was a good lesson learned, but we were not angry at all.

I'm glad you got your money back ($400 is A LOT of money!!) but I do think you guys are being much too hard on your nephew.


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## diamond lil (Oct 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 
how does taking away the celebration of a child's birth justice? You are in essence saying he is not worth celebrating. How devestating that must be for him.

I just wanted to clarify - we (myself and DH) did not revoke the birthday party. My BIL (nephew's father) did. We did not suggest it. I don't think you implied this, Potty Diva, I just wanted to clarify for others who may not have read all the posts. We will still mail a card and buy a gift like we do every year.


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 
how does taking away the celebration of a child's birth justice? You are in essence saying he is not worth celebrating. How devestating that must be for him.

I agree. Taking away a B'day party just seems so wrong to me. Sure, he shouldn't have taken those bills, but I am willing to be money he had no idea what they were worth and taking away a 7 year olds party for that seems crazy to me.


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## almama (Mar 22, 2003)

It sounds like you care a lot for this boy. He is very lucky to have you.

I think everyone is right that he had no concept of the sum, but probably had a swiping urge. Now that things have passed, have you sat him down over a cup of tea and asked him what is going on? No judgements, accusations, just wondering what happened, what your concerns are and if you and he can reach an agreement of trust. Keeping a line of communication open is always important and will be more helpful than a house full of toys.

I wouldn't be worried about a life of crime because of this incident. I would be worried about more negative behavior due to the lack of connection between him and his own family. Offering yourself as a confidant, not just a babysitter, will be invaluable to him.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *almama* 
It sounds like you care a lot for this boy. He is very lucky to have you.

I think everyone is right that he had no concept of the sum, but probably had a swiping urge. Now that things have passed, have you sat him down over a cup of tea and asked him what is going on? No judgements, accusations, just wondering what happened, what your concerns are and if you and he can reach an agreement of trust. Keeping a line of communication open is always important and will be more helpful than a house full of toys.

I wouldn't be worried about a life of crime because of this incident. I would be worried about more negative behavior due to the lack of connection between him and his own family. Offering yourself as a confidant, not just a babysitter, will be invaluable to him.

I agree with this. If this were my nephew (and my nephew has taken money from me before) I would treat it matter of factly:

- that's my money, and I need it for rent
- we don't steal from each other in this family
- if you feel an urge to steal something, come and tell me about it and we will sort it out together

FYI I stole money from my parents when I was 12, and now I walk back to the store if they give me an extra dollar in change. It's not a sign of a life of crime. But he is having some kind of urge (one I think most kids experience, actually) and it would be nice if he could feel your love and willingness to be there for him when he does.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

But after the new baby came, he is just more interested on shoving his son off on me or grandma or my other SIL.
Could you say no? Tell your bil he can bring the kid over, but he has to be the one watching him because you aren't up to it and he's not ready to be unsupervised.

(And $2500 in cash isn't ready to be unsupervised either. I would never leave that sitting on the counter with kids in the house.)


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
Could you say no? Tell your bil he can bring the kid over, but he has to be the one watching him because you aren't up to it and he's not ready to be unsupervised.

(And $2500 in cash isn't ready to be unsupervised either. I would never leave that sitting on the counter with kids in the house.)

ITA with this, and with what most of the pp's have said.

I have to ask, are you pregnant with your first child? I've found that my expectations about what I can leave lying around the house (and my expectations of children in general) have changed considerably since having my own kiddos and learning more about age appropriate behavior, directly and through more reading and discussion with other parents. Children are not rational adults, and all of the "I, as the adult, should be able to do X, Y, Z without worrying about the child doing A, B, C" theories just don't apply, at least IME. YMMV, though.

When I was child, I clearly remember my mother pressing me repeatedly when I did something wrong, wanting to know why I did whatever it was -- I didn't know. It was an impulse, and there was no way that I could explain it to her.








s to your nephew, and







s to you. It sounds like you have a lot on your plate right now, and it's difficult to handle these things when you're stressed, working, and pregnant.


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## LiamnEmma (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

This is the ONLY time during the course of this drama that nephew showed any emotion, which is a little concerning.

IMO, he is plenty old enough to know right from wrong and knows that stealing is wrong. He never showed any emotion about the situation until BIL told him his b-day party was cancelled.

Nephew is dealing with a new sister being born, and he is probably being ignored at home. I think he stole the money to act out in frustration.
Be careful, Mama. These are the kind of words I've learned to eat in my mama years.

My typical 7-year old wouldn't have a clue about the money. She also wouldn't touch it because that's the way she is. My non-typical 8 year old would have had some clue about how much money it was at that age but wouldn't really have "gotten" that it was wrong to take it. Out on the table? Community property. That's how their minds tend to work. I would have been upset. Even more that he took it (and now I'm talking about my own child) and didn't give it all back. That he shared it? Kudos to him.









It's hard. And 7 years old really is still a baby. In our long lives, these are the early early years, when it's okay to make mistakes and everybody still loves you, and that love is what helps us make better decisions next time. Don't get me wrong, I have very limited tolerance in my own children's misbehavior, but this wasn't misbehavior I don't think. It was a bad choice, then shame and fear probably kept him from further admitting to wrong.

I know you don't like hearing this but I agree with a pp who asserted that the money shouldn't have been left out. I find that most things my kids do that I dislike could have been avoided with a little foresight on the part of their parents. Yeah, it's your house, yeah, it's your money, but when we're sharing space, even for a little bit, we take care with our treasures. I certainly don't leave bank statements out when family members come over because I don't want anyone to have a clue about what we may or may not have. It's just too personal for me. And this is the same idea. Not that you put it up because you think he's a thief. You put it up because he's 7 and things are exciting and he's bright and curious.

Again, I agree with others. Love him. Hug him. Forgive him, and take on a bit of the responsibility so that his little shoulders don't have to bear it all.


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## SquishyKitty (Jun 10, 2005)

DS is 7, and is still confusing nickels and quarters. I don't think he'd even be able to grasp that large amount of money, so for your nephew it was probably an impulse thing, more than anything else.

It's not okay, but I think it's normal for kids that age. Especially when they don't understand the value of something like that.

DS got $40 for his birthday, but he wanted to buy something that was $59, so we had to sit down with him and show him the numbers (he's not doing subtraction that large yet) so that he understood he didn't have enough for the toy. I could tell that he still didn't quite grasp it.


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
As far as the money being on the counter - it shouldn't matter where the heck it was. It wasn't his and he shouldn't have bothered it.


Yes it does matter where it was. He's 7, he might bother things that are attractive even if they are not his. He's a little kid. Since talking to his dad worked in the past maybe you could try to get him to change his mind about the b-day party (even if it has passed maybe they could do a belated one). That is just so harsh and needlessly punitive. He probably didn't give the other $300 back right away because he was scared of getting in trouble. Maybe he even thought he could put it back later but your DH counted it and your nephew handed over the rest. It's really not a big deal. I wouldn't even call it stealing at this age.

I agree that it is not your job to be your nephew's babysitter, especially if you feel like his parents are trying to palm him off on you. That's not cool, but the little boy shouldn't suffer for it. Being firm with your BIL on this would make a lot more sense than leaving the kid to his own devices and then feeling upset when he pockets some very cool looking 100 dollar bills that you didn't take the time to put away.


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## diamond lil (Oct 6, 2003)

Thanks for all the replies. We did have another talk with him and I asked him what he was feeling when he took it (as a pp had mentioned). I suspected that he was bored, and I was right.

We decided not to emphasize the value of the money because he probably has no concept. I guess it doesn't matter if it was four dollars or four hundred. It's the fact that he was in OUR house bothering OUR stuff. It's not like our money was lying on HIS kitchen counter. We just wanted to him to understand that when he is in another person's home, he needs to respect their stuff. He agreed not to touch stuff that doesn't belong to him unless he asks first.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
He agreed not to touch stuff that doesn't belong to him unless he asks first.

I'm glad you spoke with him again, and clarified the issue. I would caution, though, that some 7 yos don't have the impulse control to keep this promise. He probably needs supervision to succeed.

I don't know if you can really separate out the value of money in this situation. Really, what are the chances that you (you, dh, and his dad) would have freaked out if he had swiped 4 pieces of junk mail from a pile? Or 4 pennies? 4 pieces of copy paper? 4 candies? He probably touches things that belong to others all the time, and no one ever freaks out. This time it was a Big Deal _because_ it was money--and large sums at that. I think that issue should be explained to him.


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Demeter9* 
I think that your level of expectation of what this is supposed to mean, and what he is supposed to understand isn't in line with reality. He shows you so - he merely gave away $100.00 because he likes his friend. It clearly displays his understanding.

I agree with this, and with the others who have said this is totally age-appropriate behavior, and that $400 to him is probably not much different than $4.

I am sad that his birthday party is being cancelled.


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
Thanks for all the replies. We did have another talk with him and I asked him what he was feeling when he took it (as a pp had mentioned). I suspected that he was bored, and I was right.

We decided not to emphasize the value of the money because he probably has no concept. I guess it doesn't matter if it was four dollars or four hundred. It's the fact that he was in OUR house bothering OUR stuff. It's not like our money was lying on HIS kitchen counter. We just wanted to him to understand that when he is in another person's home, he needs to respect their stuff. He agreed not to touch stuff that doesn't belong to him unless he asks first.

Diamond, I think you are doing a great job of keeping an open mind while reading the responses.









Are you pregnant with your first? Even though I helped raise my sisters and spent quite a bit of time around children .. I've found my expectations have become so much more realistic after having a child of my own. Expecting a 7 year old to not touch things in another person's house is fine, but not all children that age have the impulse control to do that 100% of the time. I would caution against expecting too much out of your nephew, and instead, help him to be successful. Keep things he shouldn't touch out of his reach. Really, 7 years old is still very young and it sounds like he has a lot going on right now. Your love, understanding and compassion will go such a long way.


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
We decided not to emphasize the value of the money because he probably has no concept. I guess it doesn't matter if it was four dollars or four hundred. It's the fact that he was in OUR house bothering OUR stuff. It's not like our money was lying on HIS kitchen counter. We just wanted to him to understand that when he is in another person's home, he needs to respect their stuff. He agreed not to touch stuff that doesn't belong to him unless he asks first.

I think this is going to be really confusing to a kid.

There are other things in your house that he can touch, yes? It's not a museum. He is allowed to touch some things. If ever he is in YOUR house, you should assume he will be messing with YOUR stuff. So how is he, at age seven, with the judgment he has at that age, supposed to figure out which stuff is okay to touch and which is not?

It wouldn't be out of line for YOU to apologize, explaining that you shouldn't have left such valuable things on the kitchen counter, where there is typically other stuff that's okay for him to play with (because I'm guessing there is), not to mention where it could get knocked off, spilled on, or lost.

When we deal with children, it is important for us to take on some responsibility for keeping them out of things we don't want them to have. Fragile things need to be out of reach. Important papers need to be safely put away. You can't expect a child to take care of these things for you, or to have no unfortunate accidents in the vicinity of things you don't want to see broken, torn, or drenched in juice (juice being the best case). YOU need to take care of YOUR stuff.


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## thebarkingbird (Dec 2, 2005)

you really have been very open minded and kind in accpting constructive criticism and advice. i wouldn't talk him to death but it might do to explain that everybody got SO mad because it was very valuable and you forgot that he might not know that.

social rules are really really really complex. it's sometimes funny and it sometimes kinda hurts to watch kids struggle with learning them. when kids get to be about 4 it's common for them to yell that they don't love their parents. they're just trying to figure out how to express anger and they overshoot.







it's just hard to know how to help them and strike a balance with discipline.

also sounds hard to take care of someone else;s kid so much. you are around them enough that you need to do some discipline but their parents are the decision makers. worth it, but tough.


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## diamond lil (Oct 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MeepyCat* 
It wouldn't be out of line for YOU to apologize, explaining that you shouldn't have left such valuable things on the kitchen counter, where there is typically other stuff that's okay for him to play with (because I'm guessing there is), not to mention where it could get knocked off, spilled on, or lost.

You have got to be kidding. I would have apologized if I had come over to HIS house and left $2500.00 laying on a kitchen counter. That would be out of line. And no, it is not OK for him to play with ANYTHING on my kitchen counter. It is not a play area.

At 7 years old, he needs to learn how to develop good judgement of what he can and cannot touch IN OTHER PEOPLE'S HOMES and I think for the most part, he has developed pretty good judgement with many other things. This is a learning experience. He is a good, smart kid. I'm not going to baby him. He knew it was wrong and did it anyway.

Apologizing to a kid that did something wrong would send the wrong message. It gets him off the hook. If we leave money out in the open, that's our perogative. It's our home. He is a guest in it. What ever happened to the old saying, "Look with your eyes, not with your hands?"

My parents are antique dealers. In all my years of living in a house with many breakable, priceless antiques, I never broke a thing because I was taught to respect other people's stuff. I could look all I wanted, but had to ask to touch. I don't think that's too much to ask of a 7 year old.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

In essence by leaving that much money laying around you are demonstrating it's lack of value to a 7 year old.


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
You have got to be kidding. I would have apologized if I had come over to HIS house and left $2500.00 laying on a kitchen counter. That would be out of line. And no, it is not OK for him to play with ANYTHING on my kitchen counter. It is not a play area.

At 7 years old, he needs to learn how to develop good judgement of what he can and cannot touch IN OTHER PEOPLE'S HOMES and I think for the most part, he has developed pretty good judgement with many other things. This is a learning experience. He is a good, smart kid. I'm not going to baby him. He knew it was wrong and did it anyway.

Apologizing to a kid that did something wrong would send the wrong message. It gets him off the hook. If we leave money out in the open, that's our perogative. It's our home. He is a guest in it. What ever happened to the old saying, "Look with your eyes, not with your hands?"

My parents are antique dealers. In all my years of living in a house with many breakable, priceless antiques, I never broke a thing because I was taught to respect other people's stuff. I could look all I wanted, but had to ask to touch. I don't think that's too much to ask of a 7 year old.

I'm not remotely kidding, and I *do* think the kid should be off the hook. I don't think it's clear that he knew he did something wrong, and I don't think a seven year-old can reasonably be held to the same standards as an adult. You have adult knowledge, and adult impulse control. He doesn't.

If this kid, or any kid, is going to run tame in your house, you need to exercise your adult judgment, or at least to recognize that he does not have adult judgment to exercise.

Had your parents asked about it, I think most of us here would have suggested that a houseful of breakable, priceless antiques is not the best choice when there are small children. You must have been an exceptionally coordinated child to never break a thing.


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

Different children, different personalities.

I guarantee that my children in a house of antiques would be a recipe for disaster. And I have some lovely children.

Yes, the kid did wrong. He GAVE one hundred dollars away. You left a huge sum of money just sitting on the counter. His concept of the money and what it means is NOT the same as yours.

You need to be careful. The way my parents acted about my sister doing this messed her right up for a long long time. Yes, she knew it was wrong - but she also didn't understand completely.

YOU are the adult.


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## diamond lil (Oct 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 
In essence by leaving that much money laying around you are demonstrating it's lack of value to a 7 year old.

Take away the issue of value for a moment. Does that mean if I have anything at all laying out on MY kitchen counter, it is free game for a 7 year old? We're not talking about a 2 year old or a 3 year old. A 7 year old. The issue is his not respecting OTHER PEOPLE'S THINGS. In their houses. Not his. Things that don't belong to him and that he has no business taking and putting in his pocket and distributing around the neighborhood.

My BIL would kill me for even thinking about aplogising to his kid. Picture this:

"Nephew, thank you so much for liberating that $400.00 from my kitchen counter. And thank you for sharing it with the kid down the street. That's so noble. I apologise for using my kitchen counter for anything other than your exclusive entertainment and amusement. Thank you, dear nephew, for the lesson in humility. As a token of my gratitude, I have bought you a new Wii. Please accept my apology and try to forgive me."


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

diamond lil, it's starting to sound to me like maybe the best thing is for you to hang out with this kid on more neutral ground.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
Take away the issue of value for a moment. Does that mean if I have anything at all laying out on MY kitchen counter, it is free game for a 7 year old? We're not talking about a 2 year old or a 3 year old. A 7 year old. The issue is his not respecting OTHER PEOPLE'S THINGS. In their houses. Not his. Things that don't belong to him and that he has no business taking and putting in his pocket and distributing around the neighborhood.

My BIL would kill me for even thinking about aplogising to his kid. Picture this:

"Nephew, thank you so much for liberating that $400.00 from my kitchen counter. And thank you for sharing it with the kid down the street. That's so noble. I apologise for using my kitchen counter for anything other than your exclusive entertainment and amusement. Thank you, dear nephew, for the lesson in humility. As a token of my gratitude, I have bought you a new Wii. Please accept my apology and try to forgive me."

I don't think anyone in this thread is suggesting that.

Something like "It was not right that you took that. But it isn't a good idea to keep lots of money on the counter either" however wouldn't be necessarily a bad thing to say, if it were genuine.

If you want your nephew to learn to take responsibility for his actions, it's always helpful to acknowledge and take responsibility for your own. And even though there is nothing in the world inherently wrong in leaving $2500 on the counter, it did create a situation where your nephew could take the huge amount of $400, which isn't really (at least in my house!!) a normal situation.

If you'd left change on the counter and he'd taken 40 cents I'm assuming it wouldn't feel so dangerous. So maybe in taking responsibility for leaving an amount of money that was really high-stakes out, you can show your nephew how to take responsibility for things.

On the not touching things question... well it sounds like you were raised in a pretty particular way. If that is the way you want kids in your family to be in your home, then you do need to make that clear. I do think 7 years old is probably getting to an age where he can learn that. However, I think it will impact on his view of being welcome in your home, and he may not enjoy his time there. That's the natural consequence of an environment like that.


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## diamond lil (Oct 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frog* 
diamond lil, it's starting to sound to me like maybe the best thing is for you to hang out with this kid on more neutral ground.

What more can I possibly do? I work 5 days a week. Kid is at my house every weekend unless he is dumped at my MIL. He and BIL sometimes come over one or two nights a week. I take him grocery shopping with me sometimes. He behaves extremely well in stores. I've taken him mini-golfing and sledding as weather permits. Yes, I sit him in front of the tv frequently with a video so I can get things done.

*I* am not the problem. The problem is his father who comes to my house to get away from his 7 week old infant and crab-ass wife, stepmother to my nephew. Pretty soon I'm going to have an infant, so maybe he'll find someplace else to hang out. She has zero patience for him. DH and I are planning on telling her she needs to start being a better stepmother to nephew and spending more time with him. She stays at home with their infant, so there is no reason she can't at least try to be a little more engaging.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

The more I read, the sorrier I feel for this little guy.

The title makes it sound as if he lifted $400 from your wallet and went to Vegas. What happened was he saw some money, grabbed four bills, and had them back by the end of the day. Oh, and lost his birthday celebration in the process. And the big concern is that he wasn't sufficiently repentant? I'm curious what that would have looked like.

Seriously, it sounds like all the adults in this situation are part of the problem. Little dude is seven. He has a new baby at his house, a stepmom who doesn't seem to like him, a father who is dumping him off on relatives, and an aunt who seems to resent the whole process. I think the grownups in this little guy's life need to be less concerned with punishing him or dictating his reactions to said punishment and more concerned with making sure he knows he is loved and valued. Poor little guy.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
"Nephew, thank you so much for liberating that $400.00 from my kitchen counter. And thank you for sharing it with the kid down the street. That's so noble. I apologise for using my kitchen counter for anything other than your exclusive entertainment and amusement. Thank you, dear nephew, for the lesson in humility. As a token of my gratitude, I have bought you a new Wii. Please accept my apology and try to forgive me."










That made me chuckle.

You are right; he knew it was wrong to take it. At 7, most children absolutely know that they aren't supposed to pocket things found on other people's counters. I do think, however, that it is unreasonable to expect most 7 yos to "look with their eyes" 100% of he time (or even enough of the time to keep your things safe). He has shown that he does not yet have reliable impulse control. He is old enough to learn, but learning takes time and often involves mistakes.

What he didn't seem to know, however, is how HUGE of a deal $400 is. So, in essence, he was given more than enough rope to hang himself, kwim?


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
What more can I possibly do? I work 5 days a week. Kid is at my house every weekend unless he is dumped at my MIL. He and BIL sometimes come over one or two nights a week. I take him grocery shopping with me sometimes. He behaves extremely well in stores. I've taken him mini-golfing and sledding as weather permits. Yes, I sit him in front of the tv frequently with a video so I can get things done.

*I* am not the problem. The problem is his father who comes to my house to get away from his 7 week old infant and crab-ass wife, stepmother to my nephew. Pretty soon I'm going to have an infant, so maybe he'll find someplace else to hang out. She has zero patience for him. DH and I are planning on telling her she needs to start being a better stepmother to nephew and spending more time with him. She stays at home with their infant, so there is no reason she can't at least try to be a little more engaging.

I feel extremely sorry for your nephew. I think that you need to set some serious boundaries with your BIL, ASAP. It's unrealistic to expect a 7 year old boy to be on his best behavior every moment that he's with you, and I think that in the long run, it would be better to limit your contact with him to those times when you're feeling rested and able to engage with him as an aunt and not as a babysitter (i.e. not have him unsupervised in your house). If he's in your house that often, it's unrealistic for him to treat it as if he's only visiting as a guest.

I don't think that anyone here is blaming YOU. It does sound like you are being taken advantage of by your BIL, and you should handle this with HIM, not with the 7 year old who is being neglected and ignored by the most important people in his life. This is about your BIL, and not about your nephew's age appropriate behavior.







s


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

I have lots to say, but I have to go get my little guy. We've been in a similar situation (the having other kids pushed on us, not the taking $), and you sound so much like I sounded by the time I finally put my foot down. I know to most posters it sounds horrible and as if you resent the child, but the reality is that it's very frustrating to have to take responsibility for someone else's child all the time - especially when that interferes with your own life. You need to have a sit-down with BIL and his wife - NOW. Don't let it fester because it only gets worse.

FWIW, I think 7 is old enough to understand not to touch things that don't belong to him. Of course he doesn't understand the value of the money, but he is old enough to know not to take something that's not his and give it away (or keep it). The problem is that he's not your child, and so teaching him that is tough because you don't *really* have responsibility for him. If these life lessons aren't enforced at home, then it's hard for you to do it when he's with you.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *theatermom* 
I feel extremely sorry for your nephew. I think that you need to set some serious boundaries with your BIL, ASAP. It's unrealistic to expect a 7 year old boy to be on his best behavior every moment that he's with you, and I think that in the long run, it would be better to limit your contact with him to those times when you're feeling rested and able to engage with him as an aunt and not as a babysitter (i.e. not have him unsupervised in your house). If he's in your house that often, it's unrealistic for him to treat it as if he's only visiting as a guest.

I don't think that anyone here is blaming YOU. It does sound like you are being taken advantage of by your BIL, and you should handle this with HIM, not with the 7 year old who is being neglected and ignored by the most important people in his life. This is about your BIL, and not about your nephew's age appropriate behavior.







s

I just absolutely agree with all of this. It's easy to get mad at a seven-year-old. It's harder to stand up to a BIL who is taking advantage of you.


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

I feel sorry for him too.

Are you looking for a reason to be angry at him for the behaviour of this parents? Because, you keep talking about his parents over and over. The $400 gives you an easier target for your feelings of being taken advantage of.

Only he's seven. That isn't fair. The $400 you got back. The $400 is an actual physical object to pin how you feel about your BIL on to force the issue in a safer concrete way. And it gets pinned on someone who is far less able to deal with the underlying conflict, which is really quite a bit safer for the adults.

This is an adult problem.


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
What more can I possibly do?

But that's the thing: It's not about you! You keep talking about this kid touching YOUR stuff, and I think that if you can't cope with him touching YOUR stuff, you shouldn't have him in YOUR home. It's not fair to him. Not at all.


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 
The more I read, the sorrier I feel for this little guy.

...

Seriously, it sounds like all the adults in this situation are part of the problem. Little dude is seven. He has a new baby at his house, a stepmom who doesn't seem to like him, a father who is dumping him off on relatives, and an aunt who seems to resent the whole process. I think the grownups in this little guy's life need to be less concerned with punishing him or dictating his reactions to said punishment and more concerned with making sure he knows he is loved and valued. Poor little guy.

Yes. This.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

First, you asked in your OP what you should do, and if this means he will continue stealing in the future. I don't think you need to do anything; it sounds like it has been taken care of already. You got the money back, and his dad gave him a consequence. Secondly, I wouldn't assume taking four bills off your kitchen counter means a life of crime, as many others have said. I'd forget it - over and done.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
As far as the money being on the counter - it shouldn't matter where the heck it was. It wasn't his and he shouldn't have bothered it. Now I feel like I'm going to have to watch him more closely to see if he takes anything else. I hate to do that because we're family and you shouldn't have to do that around family.

I missed the part where someone mentioned this, but I agree - leaving thousands of dollars sitting on the kitchen counter just isn't the best plan. Of course, he shouldn't have taken it - but neither should it have been left out.

I think you assuming you have to watch him closely is more pregnancy hormones than anything. He is just a kid who made a mistake. Sounds like losing his birthday party made quite an impression on him. If something happens again (and to be fair, I can't read the second and third pages right now) THEN I'd worry about a trend.

I'm sorry you are being overused as a babysitter though.







Are you planning to talk to your BIL about needing more time to yourself while prepping for the new baby?


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 
The more I read, the sorrier I feel for this little guy.

The title makes it sound as if he lifted $400 from your wallet and went to Vegas. What happened was he saw some money, grabbed four bills, and had them back by the end of the day. Oh, and lost his birthday celebration in the process. And the big concern is that he wasn't sufficiently repentant? I'm curious what that would have looked like.

Seriously, it sounds like all the adults in this situation are part of the problem. Little dude is seven. He has a new baby at his house, a stepmom who doesn't seem to like him, a father who is dumping him off on relatives, and an aunt who seems to resent the whole process. I think the grownups in this little guy's life need to be less concerned with punishing him or dictating his reactions to said punishment and more concerned with making sure he knows he is loved and valued. Poor little guy.


I agree with all of this. I feel so sorry for this poor 7 year old.









For the record, we just spent the weekend with my inlaws who have a very small house packed out with breakable things all over. My 5.5 year old knows to look, not touch and be very careful when he's in the house. Even still, we had one time where he came very close to breaking something .. total accident, but he bumped his shoulder on a table and something fell off. He is very advanced and good about listening, but it still made for a stressful weekend trying to keep an eye on him and make sure nothing got broken. We spent most of our time playing outside, thank goodness. I can't imagine growing up or trying to raise my son in a home like that. NO THANK YOU.

OP, I hope you guys can find a solution to help this poor kid. He's got a step Mom that's not engaged, a Dad who is dumping him on people, a new sibling and he's only 7 ... now he's looking at loosing his B'day party and IMO, even after all of these responses you are being very, very harsh about this. Some of it is obviously lack of experience/children .. but for your nephew's sake ... try to see what so many people are telling you.


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
"Nephew, thank you so much for liberating that $400.00 from my kitchen counter. And thank you for sharing it with the kid down the street. That's so noble. I apologise for using my kitchen counter for anything other than your exclusive entertainment and amusement. Thank you, dear nephew, for the lesson in humility. As a token of my gratitude, I have bought you a new Wii. Please accept my apology and try to forgive me."

If you said any such thing, I have to think your BIL would be right to step in and shut you up.

Seriously, though, I was thinking more along the lines of "I know it's sometimes hard not to touch stuff, so I promise to be more careful with important things when you come over, so that neither of us has to worry about them." More gracious versions of this include phrases like "It was a mistake for me to leave such a large amount of money where anything might happen to it," and "I'm sorry we had such a rough weekend."

Additionally, big yes to annettemarie, and to all the people who suggest that you set boundaries with your BIL regarding his using you as a babysitter. In regards to what more you can do - you don't want to do more, clearly, so maybe the right question is "how can you do less?" And I really don't mean that to be mean, although I recognize that it may sound that way. It sounds like, as long as you're present, BIL will take advantage of you, and that dynamic sounds firmly established and hard to shake. Have you considered planning to be out when BIL comes to visit? Warn your DH and BIL what the plan is, and then.. go. Go shopping. Go visit friends. Run your own errands, do your own thing, maybe get a pedicure (nothing like a professional footrub to brighten up a pregnant lady's day). The easiest way to not be the babysitter is not to be there.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Okay, i feel bad for this kid too, and I am one of the more hard asses with discipline around here.

You say it doesn't matter the value of the money, but it very obviously does. $400 and $4 are different, if he had given the kid down the street a dollar the interaction with the neighbour mother would not have gone down remotely like it did. And the birthday party wouldn't be cancelled over $4.

The whole 'don't touch my stuff' thing is ungenerous and doesn't make any sense, because as others have pointed out obviously he does touch your stuff all the time... how could he not, when he is over visiting so much? Unless your place is a mausoleum.

I would ABSOLUTELY emphasize the value of the money, talk to him again and give him the benefit of the doubt, and yes: apologize. Not sarcastically like you are talking about, but I would apologize for assuming he knew how big of a deal $400 is, and assuming he would know that some things are fine to take/touch, some things are a minor deal, and some things are huge and will lead you to wonder if he is headed to be a career criminal. A young child cannot differentiate the value of money, lots of people have echoed that. I would let him know money is not for taking, $400 is not $4, and I would tell him you still have faith in him and you are sorry for overreacting and assuming the worst.

If you are bitter toward your BIL for not taking care of his kid and dumping him on you, deal with him directly. That is the only decent thing to do here. That is most emphatically not the kid's fault.


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## diamond lil (Oct 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I would tell him you still have faith in him and you are sorry for overreacting and assuming the worst.

How exactly was I overreacting? DH and I handled the situation very calmly, without raised voices. DH had to intervene when BIL threatened to pop nephew in the mouth.

Please don't forget one important factor: this happened in our home. BIL and nephew do not live there. We did not cancel the birthday party or even suggest it.


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## dflanag2 (Oct 4, 2005)

I wasn't going to post, and I am probably going to make you feel even more angry, but I couldn't get your DN out of my mind. Whether you like it or not, you are a part of this child's family and partly responsilble for his well being when you allow your BIL to 'dump' him on you for free child care. (which FWIW I think is irresponsible of him to do) If you don't want the responsbility, which is my impression from all the anger in your posts, then put your foot down and say so.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
My BIL would kill me for even thinking about aplogising to his kid. Picture this:

"Nephew, thank you so much for liberating that $400.00 from my kitchen counter. And thank you for sharing it with the kid down the street. That's so noble. I apologise for using my kitchen counter for anything other than your exclusive entertainment and amusement. Thank you, dear nephew, for the lesson in humility. As a token of my gratitude, I have bought you a new Wii. Please accept my apology and try to forgive me."

Sure you are sarcastically funny here, but would you really accept an apology like this from ANYONE? How would you feel if you rec'd an apology like this?

If I were an aunt or a parent of the DN in question, I would see an apology as a way to get us both on the same side, to both shoulder the burden of the mistake together. "I'm sorry that I left that money out that was so tempting to you to take. It was careless of me to leave such an important thing out. I want you to remember to leave things alone when they don't belong to you, okay? And if you see something out that looks important, maybe something fragile or valuable, let me know right away so that I can check it out and make sure it gets put away safely. I really appreciate you helping me keep an eye on things, especially with the new baby coming." Would your BIL have an objection to this apology, offered lovingly and sincerely? How do you think your DN would react to this approach?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
I just wanted to clarify - we (myself and DH) did not revoke the birthday party. My BIL (nephew's father) did. We did not suggest it. I don't think you implied this, Potty Diva, I just wanted to clarify for others who may not have read all the posts. We will still mail a card and buy a gift like we do every year.

The fact remains that if the money had not been left out, the party would not have been cancelled. How do you feel about the party being cancelled? How would you feel about going to your BIL and letting him know that you don't think it is necessary to cancel the party? Maybe your BIL would decide to lighten up on your DN. You could say something like, "You know, BIL, I think we all overreacted when DN took that money. It was alarming to think we could have lost it, but we have it back now, no harm done. I've given it some thought and I don't think your son really understood the value of what he took, and he is always such a good, well-behaved kid when I spend time with him. It was careless of us to leave that money out anyway. I want you to know that you don't have to cancel his birthday party for my sake, in fact, I would rather that he have it. Think about it--he has a new baby in the house and I know that he is having trouble getting along with his stepmother. I think we should show him we love him and support him even when he makes mistakes, and if you still feel it is necessary, discipline him in another way."

I hope this helps.









-dflanag2


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
How exactly was I overreacting? DH and I handled the situation very calmly, without raised voices. DH had to intervene when BIL threatened to pop nephew in the mouth.

Please don't forget one important factor: this happened in our home. BIL and nephew do not live there. We did not cancel the birthday party or even suggest it.

So because you didn't raise your voices, you didn't overreact?







:

Oh God, this gets worse and worse. Your BIL was going to pop that poor kid in the mouth? Seriously?

I can feel your anger, but this kid needs help, he needs a friend. There is so much going on here and it's so very sad. Don't you feel any compassion for that poor little boy?!


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I think it sounds like you've got a lot on your plate


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
How exactly was I overreacting?.

Well, _someone_ overreacted. His party was cancelled, and he was nearly hit in the mouth. Maybe you could send his dad on over to this thread, and we could have a few words with him?









Poor kid


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
How exactly was I overreacting? DH and I handled the situation very calmly, without raised voices. DH had to intervene when BIL threatened to pop nephew in the mouth.

Please don't forget one important factor: this happened in our home. BIL and nephew do not live there. We did not cancel the birthday party or even suggest it.

I know from experience that as an aunt you can't really intervene directly. But I think you can influence (if you want to) and talk to your BIL about how his son's behaviour doesn't mean he's a bad kid and you could suggest mildly that celebrating his birth shouldn't be contingent on his mistakes.

Although you may not want to, and it is between them.

It does sound like a very frustrating and heart breaking situation all the way around. I have been there in many ways. I guess what I hope is that the focus can stay a little bit on bringing positive and loving people and experiences into your nephew's (and your new baby's!) life in a way that doesn't overburden your own family.


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## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

Would you be averse to saying something like this?

Nephew, I've been thinking about that money thing that happened. You know how usually, when something is really valuable or important to us, we try to put it in a special or a safe place? Well, obviously, I forgot to do that. Leaving it on the counter was something that I wish I hadn't done. That probably made it seem like it wasn't super important or special to me. Since now you know that it was important and valuable, maybe you could use this experience to remember that it's a good idea to ask before you decide to take something that's not yours. I hope that we both learned something from this, I know I did!


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
Well, _someone_ overreacted. His party was cancelled, and he was nearly hit in the mouth. Maybe you could send his dad on over to this thread, and we could have a few words with him?









Poor kid









You are also assuming he knew the value of the money and intended to steal. You are talking about dire lifetime consequences and some big negative statement about his character, that he must be inherently dishonest and headed for a life of crime. Etc etc. And you are blaming him for his father's crappy parenting.

That and what sunnmama detailed is how you overreacted. Yelling has nothing to do with it.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

I feel so bad for the little guy








I do think it's your responsibility as a family member to provide a place for him where he is welcome, loved, and allowed to be himself. Does he even have this? If you can't do this then please for his sake let his parents know that you will no longer be having him over in your home. That would be the only other responsible thing to do. I would be really pissed if I found out someone had this attitude towards my kids when they were at their place. I really cannot imagine telling any kid that they're not allowed to touch any of MY stuff when they're in MY house. That just seems pretty cruel. Obviously boundaries (with BIL and with the child) are in order here.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

My oldest is 7. He knows the value of money (would recognize the difference between a hundred dollar bill and a one dollar bill, would know that 100 is "a lot" and 1 is "not so much), and I still could see him doing something like this without any sort of ill intent. I don't think a child that age would have a concept of what a missing 100 or 400 would mean to a family. For instance, if my son gave away $100, he wouldn't understand that that might mean I wouldn't be able to put gas in the van to drive him to school or that the electricity might get turned off because it was gone. Would I be upset if I found that my son had taken that kind of money from me? Of course - but it wouldn't be the act of taking the money that upset me - it would be the fear that the missing money would mean that I couldn't provide for my family. I think ds would also lie about whether he had anymore if people were already upset with him over the first bill - why confess if you know your dad might hit you over it?

OP, you haven't answered the question about how big a deal it would have been if it was 4 cents or $4 - would it be as big a deal? Or would you just say "Hey DN - I know it's fun to play with money sometimes, but that was mine. Please ask next time if you can look at it/play with it/have it." ?

If I were in your situation, this is what I would do at this point:
1) Intervene on his behalf with BIL re: the party. I think canceling the party could be very damaging to this little boy, and BIL might only have done it because he thought it would show you guys that he was taking it seriously. I would point out all that has been said here about how no party could lead to even more jealousy about the new baby. Obviously, you can't make BIL change his mind, but you expressing your opinions might give BIL a way to back down on this without feeling like he's being walked over. I would even go so far as to suggest that if BIL still cancels the party, you ask if you can do something fun and celebratory yourself with DN on a date to be determined.
2) Tell your BIL that you will no longer be a free babysitting service for him on the weekends. Tell him exactly what you're comfortable with (whether that's "I'll never watch him again" or "I'd love to visit with him between 10am and 12pm on Saturday mornings" or "I can take him one weekend day a month," etc) - and clarify that if BIL is over to see your DH whether your nephew is welcome, and if he is state clearly what you expect from BIL with regards to entertaining/supervising his son.
3) Have a talk with DN about what happened. If you can't imagine an apology from you, just say something like."DN - we had a rough time last weekend when you took the money. I was angry then and scared because I really needed that money. I want you to know that I'm not angry anymore and that I still love you."


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamajama* 
I feel so bad for the little guy








I do think it's your responsibility as a family member to provide a place for him where he is welcome, loved, and allowed to be himself. Does he even have this? If you can't do this then please for his sake let his parents know that you will no longer be having him over in your home. That would be the only other responsible thing to do. I would be really pissed if I found out someone had this attitude towards my kids when they were at their place.

There are 2 distinct problems. One's the taking of the money, and the other's being taken advantage of by the parents. My first responsibility (as the OP's) is to my immediate family. In her case, that's her, her growing little one, and her husband. When taking in someone else's child interferes with that (which really seems to be what's happening here), then that obligation to care for any other children in the family goes out the window. I know because I've been there. It starts as "can you get Joe a sandwich?" and before you know it, you're taking care of Joe all the time because his parents are using you. Then you're left feeling that you shouldn't punish the child for his parents' crappy behavior, but at the same time that if you continue to take care of Joe, then what you're doing is detrimental to your own family. And eventually if you don't stop - even if that means Joe has to stay with his crappy parents every weekend - then you're going to add to the harm being done to this child and to yourself.

And, really I've been putting this 7 YO thing in perspective. In thinking of the 7 YOs I know, only one comes to mind who I think would take something off my kitchen counter. One. The others wouldn't, and they certainly wouldn't go around giving something they took from my house to other people.

Now, does that mean the OP's nephew is going to be a hardened criminal? Of course not, but I think too many people are shifting the blame to the OP for leaving the money out (which shouldn't have been done) and putting absolutely no responsibility on the nephew for taking the money. It was wrong, and yes, he should know better. At 7, he should know not to just take things and pocket them.

The issue of BIL overreacting about the party and hitting the child are separate from the fact that the OP has the right to be upset that someone took money from off her counter. I'm not sure why the OP should in any way apologize for leaving the money out, and it seems at any rate that would only serve to confuse the nephew.


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## Maluhia (Jun 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
*I* am not the problem. The problem is his father who comes to my house to get away from his 7 week old infant and crab-ass wife, stepmother to my nephew. Pretty soon I'm going to have an infant, so maybe he'll find someplace else to hang out. She has zero patience for him. *DH and I are planning on telling her she needs to start being a better stepmother to nephew and spending more time with him*. She stays at home with their infant, so there is no reason she can't at least try to be a little more engaging.

I think your loosing perspective.

Note: telling ANYONE they should be a better parent is really presumptuous and will be taken worth a grain of salt from someone with strong opinions BEFORE motherhood. Just so you know - that 'aint going to go well at all.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 

And, really I've been putting this 7 YO thing in perspective. In thinking of the 7 YOs I know, only one comes to mind who I think would take something off my kitchen counter. One. The others wouldn't, and they certainly wouldn't go around giving something they took from my house to other people.

Now, does that mean the OP's nephew is going to be a hardened criminal? Of course not, but I think too many people are shifting the blame to the OP for leaving the money out (which shouldn't have been done) and putting absolutely no responsibility on the nephew for taking the money. It was wrong, and yes, he should know better. At 7, he should know not to just take things and pocket them.

I just want to respond to this quickly. Sorry if it comes out short; I'm running out the door.

I agree that a lot of 7 year olds don't swipe things. But some do, especially money. There is a fascination around money around that age, probably because kids are realizing how much power it gives them.

How do I know this? At this age both my nephews individual swiped small amount of money from my purse. They were also in situations where they were very powerless and where their home life was chaotic and not ideal. In both cases they did know in their heads that it was wrong, but in impulse and in their hearts they craved the power and the kind of "can I get away with this" attention.

And one, at least, is now 12 and one of the most honest kids out there.

So ok, you know 7 year olds who wouldn't and I know 7 year olds that would. On this site in particular I kind of assume that many of us take the view that a child's misbehaviour has some REASON behind it. I think the reason here is pretty clear and I hope this kid gets the attention and compassion he needs.


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## diamond lil (Oct 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
OP, you haven't answered the question about how big a deal it would have been if it was 4 cents or $4 - would it be as big a deal? Or would you just say "Hey DN - I know it's fun to play with money sometimes, but that was mine. Please ask next time if you can look at it/play with it/have it." ?

If I were in your situation, this is what I would do at this point:
1) Intervene on his behalf with BIL re: the party. I think canceling the party could be very damaging to this little boy, and BIL might only have done it because he thought it would show you guys that he was taking it seriously. I would point out all that has been said here about how no party could lead to even more jealousy about the new baby. Obviously, you can't make BIL change his mind, but you expressing your opinions might give BIL a way to back down on this without feeling like he's being walked over. I would even go so far as to suggest that if BIL still cancels the party, you ask if you can do something fun and celebratory yourself with DN on a date to be determined.
2) Tell your BIL that you will no longer be a free babysitting service for him on the weekends. Tell him exactly what you're comfortable with (whether that's "I'll never watch him again" or "I'd love to visit with him between 10am and 12pm on Saturday mornings" or "I can take him one weekend day a month," etc) - and clarify that if BIL is over to see your DH whether your nephew is welcome, and if he is state clearly what you expect from BIL with regards to entertaining/supervising his son.
3) Have a talk with DN about what happened. If you can't imagine an apology from you, just say something like."DN - we had a rough time last weekend when you took the money. I was angry then and scared because I really needed that money. I want you to know that I'm not angry anymore and that I still love you."

You have not read this thread, or at least you haven't read my replies.

1: I will not undermine my BIL's parenting decisions. I will not plead on nephew's behalf about the b-day party. You wouldn't want your parenting decisions usurped by another family member, would you? I already stated that we (myself and DH) will buy him a card and a gift like we normally do. I don't think anything "special" is necessary.

2: I have been around and around with BIL about being a free babysitting service. Now that he has a new baby, it is worse. DH and I plan to talk to him again.

3. We talked to nephew about this TWICE. On the day it happened, and again last night. We were both calm about it. I was NEVER angry at him. His father was the one who was angry and nearly out of control over the situation.

So, I suggest you actually *read* the posts before you decide to make wholesale, blanket statements. It looks bad on your part and it clutters the thread.


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
So ok, you know 7 year olds who wouldn't and I know 7 year olds that would. On this site in particular I kind of assume that many of us take the view that a child's misbehaviour has some REASON behind it. I think the reason here is pretty clear and I hope this kid gets the attention and compassion he needs.











As I've said before, I don't think that anyone here is blaming the OP for the 7 year old stealing the money. What I hear, and feel myself, is that the situation is being blown out of proportion because of unrealistic expectations that a 7 year old never do anything that he knows he shouldn't in someone else's house (don't tell me that you don't know ANY 7 year olds who NEVER break ANY rules), and that the OP has a serious beef with her BIL and his wife. The nephew really is caught in the crossfire. He doesn't have a choice as to whose house he's in at any given point, he doesn't have anyone to play with while in the house, and most of the adults seem to prefer that he be seen and not heard the vast majority of the time.









What I'm hearing is that the aunt would prefer not to have to deal with the responsibility of a 7 year old in her house, at least as often as she does now -- that is totally her call. However, rather than get unduly worked up about the character of her nephew (and his emotional response to his "crime"), I think that she should deal directly with her BIL. And NOT by telling him and his wife to be better parents, but by setting boundaries about what goes on in her own home. Many posters have expressed sympathy to the OP for being stuck in such a situation, but she has come across as harshly unsympathetic to her dn's situation when I think that her real problem is with the adults in his life.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
You have not read this thread, or at least you haven't read my replies.

1: I will not undermine my BIL's parenting decisions. I will not plead on nephew's behalf about the b-day party. You wouldn't want your parenting decisions usurped by another family member, would you? I already stated that we (myself and DH) will buy him a card and a gift like we normally do. I don't think anything "special" is necessary.

2: I have been around and around with BIL about being a free babysitting service. Now that he has a new baby, it is worse. DH and I plan to talk to him again.

3. We talked to nephew about this TWICE. On the day it happened, and again last night. We were both calm about it. I was NEVER angry at him. His father was the one who was angry and nearly out of control over the situation.

So, I suggest you actually *read* the posts before you decide to make wholesale, blanket statements. It looks bad on your part and it clutters the thread.

I read the thread. I think we're just disagreeing about what is appropriate.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I don't understand how approaching BIL an asking him to reconsider (not in front of your nephew, of course) is "undermining" his parenting decision. Especially since I'm guessing his reaction in removing the party was somewhat in proportion to your reaction. I would hope he isn't so insecure or volitile that there's absolutely no room for him to reconsider. I reconsider and change things up all the time. It's an excellent opportunity for my kids to experience grace and me to experience humility.


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 
I don't understand how approaching BIL an asking him to reconsider (not in front of your nephew, of course) is "undermining" his parenting decision. Especially since I'm guessing his reaction in removing the party was somewhat in proportion to your reaction. I would hope he isn't so insecure or volitile that there's absolutely no room for him to reconsider. I reconsider and change things up all the time. It's an excellent opportunity for my kids to experience grace and me to experience humility.









Yup!!


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## diamond lil (Oct 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 
I don't understand how approaching BIL an asking him to reconsider (not in front of your nephew, of course) is "undermining" his parenting decision. Especially since I'm guessing his reaction was somewhat in proportion to your reaction.

If his reaction was in proporation to my reaction, there would still be a b-day party, there would have been no threat of hitting and everyone would be happy.

I think you are assuming I had an immediate negative reaction. My DH and I had a calm discussion with nephew about it. His father is the one who overreacted, not me. There was nothing I could do about that, although I did tell him to calm down when he threatened to hit nephew.

I've read some really helpful things on this thread from many posters, but boy, some suggestions are just real doozies!


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 
I don't understand how approaching BIL an asking him to reconsider (not in front of your nephew, of course) is "undermining" his parenting decision. Especially since I'm guessing his reaction was somewhat in proportion to your reaction. I would hope he isn't so insecure or volitile that there's absolutely no room for him to reconsider. I reconsider and change things up all the time. It's an excellent opportunity for my kids to experience grace and me to experience humility.










I was just comng back to say this. I think you might have inteperted "intervene on his behalf" to mean "beg him to give the kid his party back while the kid stands there and looks sad." I just meant that you talk to him (privately)about whether you think it's an appropriate punishment for something that you were the "victim" of. You were already planning on telling him he should be a better parent, so I'm not sure why this would be more undermining.

as for what you say here

Quote:

3. We talked to nephew about this TWICE. On the day it happened, and again last night. We were both calm about it. I was NEVER angry at him. His father was the one who was angry and nearly out of control over the situation.
It sounds to me like you're angry about the situation. You migh not have yelled at him, but your anger and resentment about having to deal with you BIL is bleeding all over this thread, and I suspect it bleeds over into your relationship with DN.

Can I ask you a question? What were you hoping to gain from this thread? I went back and reread the OP - and you aren't asking for advice. . .but I can't see any other reason to post it. You don't seem to want to hear what people have to say about it.


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## almama (Mar 22, 2003)

What a tangled web!

From my reading, the OP handled the situation the best she could given that she doesn't want to step on her brother's parenting toes in front of his child. There is a lot to commend her for that, although I think everyone here, OP included, wants the brother to check out these posts and get himself some respectful parenting 101.

But I think the folks here are reacting to the words you are using here, because even though your interactions with him are wonderful, your belief that he made a malicious mistake is coming through. Anyway, when I read your responses to the posts it makes me cringe a bit because I fear someone will treat my "not-always-perfect-but-he-is-learning" 7 yo in this way.

After seeing how harmful shame and punishment are to him and how absolutely counterproductive it is, I know reacting with anger to him would be bad. Perhaps not an immediate impact, but another link in the chain toward him disengaging and becoming more angry and covert. From the OP posts, she cares too much about him to have this happen, so folks here are trying to get you to see that light.

Anyway, it is wonderful to hear that you reacted blandly and peacefully and continue to accept him in your world.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
2: I have been around and around with BIL about being a free babysitting service. Now that he has a new baby, it is worse. DH and I plan to talk to him again.

I think I remember you saying that BIL comes over with DN and then BIL and your DH go off together, leaving you to watch DN -- am I remembering correctly? In your above quote it sounds like your DH is backing you up, but in practice it seems like he's just as much to blame as BIL when it comes to leaving you on your own to care for DN.

Rather than going around and around with BIL, and making plans to talk to him again, how about your DH just stops going off with BIL when he visits, or invites DN to go with them? It seems that that part of the problem, at least, would be solved if your DH wasn't complicit in giving your BIL "time off" from parenting while at your house.

Other than that, I don't think I have anything to say that hasn't already been said, except that in your OP you seemed to have so much compassion for your DN, and that's become less and less evident as the thread has gone on. I'm sorry that you're feeling attacked, but I think your first instincts of feeling concern for your DN and understanding that he was acting out because of his home life were good instincts -- hold on to those if you can.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
If his reaction was in proporation to my reaction, there would still be a b-day party, there would have been no threat of hitting and everyone would be happy.

I think you are assuming I had an immediate negative reaction. My DH and I had a calm discussion with nephew about it. His father is the one who overreacted, not me. There was nothing I could do about that, although I did tell him to calm down when he threatened to hit nephew.

I stand corrected. I guess it was the "confronting" and "lecturing" and concerns that this "stealing" was an omen of a life a crime that led me to believe everyone sort of freaked out.

I still maintain there would be nothing wrong with talking to BIL privately and trying to help him gain some perspective. Sounds like this little guy could use someone advocating for him.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 
Sounds like this little guy could use someone advocating for him.

Yes!!


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## violet_ (Nov 16, 2007)

We have a 7 year old, and I guarantee you he knows not to steal. And if he did steal, yes, it wouldn't be the end of the world or portend a life of criminal behavior, but there would definitely be consequences. Also, he has no idea how much $400 is, but there would be identical consequences for stealing $4. But then, the stealing in this story doesn't really bother me nearly so much as the not handing it over when first confronted. That's what he'd be more likely to be in trouble for over here. I doubt we'd cancel a party over it, but that's not obviously unreasonable, in my opinion. I bet BIL was so embarrassed that he went with his strictest impulse to make a point in front of the OP.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *violet_* 
But then, the stealing in this story doesn't really bother me nearly so much as the not handing it over when first confronted. That's what he'd be more likely to be in trouble for over here.

I'd bet money that he was totally freaking out inside and confused when first confronted, and was scared to cop to the other 3 bills in his pocket. He was probably processing the situation, and maybe planning to put the money back when no one was looking. Esp since it sounds like his dad might have hit him


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## almama (Mar 22, 2003)

Yeah, it is tempting to put adult expectations on a kid, especially when he is the oldest one around. It is like thinking my 3 yo is happy when someone is pushing him because my kid is laughing. The laughter equals pure fright, but it is not expected in the adult world.

My 7 yo sometimes responds to being caught with silence or "oh." Either he is still processing it, knows it is wrong (so what is there left to say?), or he has created some story in his head that is conflicting with reality (it has happened a few times here and is weird, but does happen).

Now he knows to say sorry and snap into action if someone got hurt - that is totally something he is used to. But for those fuzzy things that he hasn't met with yet (like when he drew cartoons on my book the other day -which he knows was wrong, but thought it was a good idea at the time and therefore not wrong . . .














, I get an "oh."


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## LiamnEmma (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

It sounds to me like you're angry about the situation. You migh not have yelled at him, but your anger and resentment about having to deal with you BIL is bleeding all over this thread, and I suspect it bleeds over into your relationship with DN.
I just want to respond to this. I have this situation. DH's nephew, and also mine since we are married after all and our children share blood with this poor child, bothers me excessively. And I never raise my voice. I never say a single mean thing. I invite him over. I try very hard to be nice to him. And there is no doubt in his mind that I don't like him. Make no mistake, kids know this. It's our paraverbals that count, not our verbals, and additionally, just like we have our own instincts, so do they. Kids probably have better developed instincts because they haven't trained themselves to turn it off yet. And I try, believe me. I know he's not bad. I know he just has a disinterested mother and really, my ire is toward her. Can't stand her for so many reasons. Yet it bleeds onto him. And so he avoids us and I feel awful about it but also helpless to control it. I'm the grown up. I'm even a psychologist. I know better!

So my point diamondlil, is that it shows. It shows here and I think your frustration with whatever part of your BIL/SIL/DN it is that is frustrating you is showing and he feels it.

Mama, trust us here on this point, if on no other. When you look into that baby's face that you're having, your love, your feelings of wanting to protect, will overtake you. Your dn felt that way to someone once. And he deserves it even now. And with so many aching hearts for him here, there must be something to that, no? He didn't ask to be born, or to have parents divorce, or to be abandoned, week after week, day after day, with relatives who aren't his mommy and daddy. If you can find it in you, love him like your own. I know it's hard. But I swear this, each year as my children age, I keep going, "Oh! I get it!" and I think back to situations like this and know that it's not all pathology.

I'm not saying go back and talk to him again or anything like that. He's probably feeling so done with it all and so are you. I'm saying, from this day forward, love him. I resolve to do the same.


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *violet_* 
We have a 7 year old, and I guarantee you he knows not to steal. And if he did steal, yes, it wouldn't be the end of the world or portend a life of criminal behavior, but there would definitely be consequences. Also, he has no idea how much $400 is, but there would be identical consequences for stealing $4. But then, the stealing in this story doesn't really bother me nearly so much as the not handing it over when first confronted. That's what he'd be more likely to be in trouble for over here. I doubt we'd cancel a party over it, but that's not obviously unreasonable, in my opinion. I bet BIL was so embarrassed that he went with his strictest impulse to make a point in front of the OP.

Have you read this entire thread? That poor kid has a Dad who thinks it's ok to pop him in the mouth and the OP has admitted the Dad was very upset and flipping out. I would sure as hell not fess up to the additional money in that situation, and I expect most 7 year olds put in that position would do the same.


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LiamnEmma* 
Mama, trust us here on this point, if on no other. When you look into that baby's face that you're having, your love, your feelings of wanting to protect, will overtake you. Your dn felt that way to someone once. And he deserves it even now. And with so many aching hearts for him here, there must be something to that, no? He didn't ask to be born, or to have parents divorce, or to be abandoned, week after week, day after day, with relatives who aren't his mommy and daddy. If you can find it in you, love him like your own. I know it's hard. But I swear this, each year as my children age, I keep going, "Oh! I get it!" and I think back to situations like this and know that it's not all pathology.



This is SO TRUE. I couldn't have said it any better.

OP, I think you'll have more compassion for this kid once you have your baby. I know I wasn't much of a kid person before I had Alex ... but now I know someone loves that kid as much as I love Alex (or should!) and it changes everything.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
You have not read this thread, or at least you haven't read my replies.

1: I will not undermine my BIL's parenting decisions. I will not plead on nephew's behalf about the b-day party. You wouldn't want your parenting decisions usurped by another family member, would you? I already stated that we (myself and DH) will buy him a card and a gift like we normally do. I don't think anything "special" is necessary.

But, you said you were going to have a talk with youe SIL and tel her to be a better parent. isn't that undermining HER parenting, whether you agree with how she parents or not. Kinda sounds like you are pleased with your BIL's choice of punishment. Because were I involved in such a thing I would DEFINITELY try and convince my BIL to not cancel the celebration of his som's BIRTH. We aren't talking a trip to the zoo or circus here.

Quote:

So, I suggest you actually *read* the posts before you decide to make wholesale, blanket statements. It looks bad on your part and it clutters the thread.
You seem so angry over this, about your nephew, about our responses. I know it is easier to read responses that mesh with initial responses to concerns (believe me I have posted and been surprised at repsonses) but then I saw that the mamas here have a better perspective to my situation. I think, if you could separate your emotions from the situation you would be able to take this advice with the kindness and insight it was intended.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

I have read the thread. I think the saddest part (short term) is that this little boy is not getting any attention from his dad or setop mom (where is his mom??) and now his ONE day to celebrate his life is being take away from him? there will be no celebration for him?? b/c he made a mistake and took money that looked very tempting?? My hear does ache for him.

If this were my nephew, and his father cancelled his birthday celebration, I would have a celebration for him...at my home. I just think this is really really sad...the kid is reaching out and being pushed further and further way.


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## violet_ (Nov 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mistymama* 
Have you read this entire thread? That poor kid has a Dad who thinks it's ok to pop him in the mouth and the OP has admitted the Dad was very upset and flipping out. I would sure as hell not fess up to the additional money in that situation, and I expect most 7 year olds put in that position would do the same.

You're right -- I hadn't seen that part. I must have missed those posts -- I was going mostly on her initial description. This does paint a different picture.


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## OakBerry (May 24, 2005)

My nephew stole $50 from me when I was 18 and he was about 7.
His parents were divorcing (my brother and his wife) and his mother had alcohol and drug problems. He was a good kid but going through an extremely stressful time. He lived with his mom and was not always supervised or taught properly.
He had a similar reaction, none really, when confronted with the theft, and I got my money back.

Fast forward to today, nephew is now 22 and the nicest, most responsible and caring young man you ever want to meet.

So I think your nephew may just be acting out and may also not realize the value of the $ that he took.
I feel bad that his dad canceled his birthday party, I'm sure that will just make things worse for your dn. And he was probably afraid of punishment, so he didn't own up to stealing the money, yk?


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I didn't read all the responses.

I think he knew darn well he was stealing.

But, I don't think he understood WHAT he stole. He probably felt like it was no different than $4.00.

After all, you DID leave it lying around, so it must have seemed like you wouldn't miss four of those dollars.

If he is to learn how to treat money, you should make sure he understands that money belongs in a safe place.

I don't think I would punish him like that.. But, I would ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS bring this up at every family gathering, his wedding, his college graduation... be sure to tell his kids... That kind of family story is always a favorite at Thanksgiving and Christmas. LMAO. who doesn't love public humiliation?

We still talk about my Grandmother (who was born in 1912) Stole a mule from a neighbor so she didn't have to carry her brother through a field. (she was six)


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## Evenstar (Sep 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mistymama* 
This is SO TRUE. I couldn't have said it any better.

OP, I think you'll have more compassion for this kid once you have your baby. I know I wasn't much of a kid person before I had Alex ... but now I know someone loves that kid as much as I love Alex (or should!) and it changes everything.

I agree! OP, seven years from now when you are planning your LO's birthday party I guarantee you will look back on this regret not intervening on your DN's behalf. At that age birthday parties are a HUGE deal. I just don't see how he deserves that to be taken away for this one mistake! With a punishment that harsh I think the feeling of being unloved would overpower any moral lesson he's supposed to be getting from this. And I think you DO have the power to influence your BIL on this issue. Please consider this.


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## diamond lil (Oct 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evenstar* 
I agree! OP, seven years from now when you are planning your LO's birthday party I guarantee you will look back on this regret not intervening on your DN's behalf. At that age birthday parties are a HUGE deal. I just don't see how he deserves that to be taken away for this one mistake! With a punishment that harsh I think the feeling of being unloved would overpower any moral lesson he's supposed to be getting from this. And I think you DO have the power to influence your BIL on this issue. Please consider this.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about this and plan to discuss it with my husband tonight. If BIL cancels the b-day party, it's just another excuse not to spend time with his son, yk? I know how BIL operates; he's transparent. Deep down inside, I just know he's thinking: "Now I don't have to spend money on a birthday party and I get an extra day away from family commitments. Joy!" Not exactly father of the year material. He is divorced from nephew's mother, who lives in another state. They share custody of their 2 children, which means he gets the boy, she gets the daughter, and he gets out of paying child support. Sorry this just gets muddier and muddier. He has a new wife and 7 week old infant at home.

I will also talk to MIL, nephew's grandmother and see if we can set something up. I don't even think she knows what happened regarding the money, and if she finds out the party was cancelled there will be all kinds of hell, so I know he'll listen to her.


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evenstar* 
With a punishment that harsh *I think the feeling of being unloved would overpower any moral lesson he's supposed to be getting from this.* And I think you DO have the power to influence your BIL on this issue. Please consider this.











He will always remember not having a 7th birthday celebration and most likely forget why not. That's what punishment does. He's no longer worried about the money or you but how much he and life sucks that he can't have a party.

It's when our kids mess up that they need our love and tenderness the most. It's so easy to give when all is fine and they don't need our assurances that they're perfect and perfectly loved half as much then as when they've done something big. It's during those times that our reactions to them and their actions speak volumes. I know he's not your kid but this goes for all kids we interact with in our lives. This really can't be said enough. There are so many authors and parents out there trying to get this point really understood. I hope you can hear it.

ETA: Cross-posted with you, OP. I'm glad to hear you're willing to talk more about it.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
I will also talk to MIL, nephew's grandmother and see if we can set something up. I don't even think she knows what happened regarding the money, and if she finds out the party was cancelled there will be all kinds of hell, so I know he'll listen to her.









Dear Nephew is lucky to have you advocate for him. What a great auntie!









Good on you for sticking with this thread


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I am so happy to hear you've rethought things and are going to try to help make his birthday special. Kids are resilient, but one of the key factors in that resiliency is having an adult in their life to stick up for them. You could be that adult in his life.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Yay!!! I'm so glad you're looking at this from his perspective as well.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

I'm so glad you changed your mind on this







. That really shows good character in you OP


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

I think that sounds like a great solution. It may be hard, but it sounds like you are and can continue to be a really positive influence in his life.


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
I will also talk to MIL, nephew's grandmother and see if we can set something up. I don't even think she knows what happened regarding the money, and if she finds out the party was cancelled there will be all kinds of hell, so I know he'll listen to her.

















Awesome!








s to you and your nephew, and thank goodness he has people like you and his grandmother to stand up for him. Loving guidance is the best way to teach others the right ways in this crazy world...

I *am* LMAO about the pp's great-grandmother (or grandmother?) who stole a mule, though -- that's just too cool!


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mistymama* 
My son is 5.5 and recently took some money off the kitchen table .. I didn't even consider it "stealing" .. he had no clue it's value, that it wasn't his, etc.









I seriously doubt your nephew knew the value, otherwise I doubt he would be giving it away to neighbors!

I am only quoting this part to make a point...

My not even 3 year old daughter can comprehend what is mommy's, daddy's, sophia's, her own, and the dog's.

She is already aware of ownership and sharing. According to Abigail, anything pink is sophia's. She knows which boots are mine or daddy's, and gives them to us as we get ready to leave, she says which coat is hers or sophia's and doesn't want sophia to have hers, and even sophia knows which coat is hers and she's only 1.5 years old. I could go on and on with examples proving their awareness of ownership and their desire to share with others, but I think I've made my point.

5.5, and certainly 7 years old, are definitely old enough to understand when something does NOT belong to them and to not take what they KNOW is someone else's. They don't need to understand the monetary value in order to simply understand it's not theirs to take. However, I do not think the fact he gave 1 bill away means he doesn't grasp the value of the money. It just means he is generous and wanted to share.

I do agree with pp's that a talk and explanation of the value of the money is important. When my husband's son repeatedly turned up the heat in our home when he was here even though he was told repeatedly not to and given alternatives such as put on socks, put on a shirt, etc ... so much so it elevated our utility bills by $120 in one month, I explained it to him. I told him how much energy it took each day and multiply by the number of days (he loves math) and arrive at... $XXX per day increase... and explained how many hours his dad has to work to earn that $XXX. We worked out an arrangement for him to do x amount of chores to earn $XXX to pay us back. The lesson was learned. But that is slightly different because this money in OP's situation was immediately returned. But a lesson in the value of a dollar is needed somehow for your nephew.

Taking away a birthday party is horrible. I'm sorry that his father chose to go that route. As someone else mentioned, that is like telling the boy that no one wants him to exist.


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## 2swangirls (Feb 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
(And $2500 in cash isn't ready to be unsupervised either. I would never leave that sitting on the counter with kids in the house.)


Even without kids!


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

OP, I am so glad you are advocating for your nephew. He is so lucky to have you rooting for him in life.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
5.5, and certainly 7 years old, are definitely old enough to understand when something does NOT belong to them and to not take what they KNOW is someone else's. They don't need to understand the monetary value in order to simply understand it's not theirs to take. However, I do not think the fact he gave 1 bill away means he doesn't grasp the value of the money. It just means he is generous and wanted to share.

You know, I may just have spent too much time in the GD forum. But the thing is that knowledge about possession (which is a very complex thing) and impulse control not to take something are way, way, way, apart. Also, sharing and stealing are all complex ideas. For example:

- we share our toys
- we share clean cups, but we don't share cups we have drunk out of
- we share bikes with neighbours but we don't share cars with neighbours
- mummy shares my markers but I don't share her permanent marker

etc.

(nevermind lying on your taxes, taking extra free samples or shampoo from hotels, downloading copyrighted material from the Internet... and so on.)

I have taught in a classroom (3 years) and have a lot of nieces and nephews. I just want to assure people that although not all children steal, lots and Lots and LOTS of kids between grades 1 and about grade 5 do steal things. They steal them for a wide variety of reasons - impulse, need, fear, to be popular, for attention, "I don't know why I just did," etc. It is a way of testing consequences, grappling with issues of power and money and prestige, impulse issues, and all kinds of things.

When you say "my child KNOWS" I'm sure he or she does, in that moment. But in his or her life it is pretty likely that he or she will test it out at some point.

And of course the message should not be "oh ok, take whatever you want honey." But there are ways to handle it compassionately, firmly, and with respect for the dignity and complexity of the human experience within a society that has huge issues around money and things.


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## Freud (Jan 21, 2008)

I also agree with previous posters who said that a 7 year old should probably know what is and is not theirs to take. He should have known better, but I do think the punishment is a bit severe. I hope he can have his party!


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
You know, I may just have spent too much time in the GD forum. But the thing is that knowledge about possession (which is a very complex thing) and impulse control not to take something are way, way, way, apart. Also, sharing and stealing are all complex ideas. For example:

- we share our toys
- we share clean cups, but we don't share cups we have drunk out of
- we share bikes with neighbours but we don't share cars with neighbours
- mummy shares my markers but I don't share her permanent marker

etc.

(nevermind lying on your taxes, taking extra free samples or shampoo from hotels, downloading copyrighted material from the Internet... and so on.)

I have taught in a classroom (3 years) and have a lot of nieces and nephews. I just want to assure people that although not all children steal, lots and Lots and LOTS of kids between grades 1 and about grade 5 do steal things. They steal them for a wide variety of reasons - impulse, need, fear, to be popular, for attention, "I don't know why I just did," etc. It is a way of testing consequences, grappling with issues of power and money and prestige, impulse issues, and all kinds of things.

When you say "my child KNOWS" I'm sure he or she does, in that moment. But in his or her life it is pretty likely that he or she will test it out at some point.

And of course the message should not be "oh ok, take whatever you want honey." But there are ways to handle it compassionately, firmly, and with respect for the dignity and complexity of the human experience within a society that has huge issues around money and things.

I agree. And in our house we really do share everything so DS does have a harder time with recognizing ownership, despite being 7.5. He's never been a "that's mine" kid. He shares with us as much as we share with him and our house philosophy has always revolved around "ours." He even wears some of my t-shirts as does BF and I wear BF's stuff and some of DS' (hats, gloves, arm warmers are about all that fit me) and we all share our money. We go to our families' houses and it's pretty much the same so at 7.5 he may know and not know at the same time and then throw in impulse control...


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Great post, GuildJenn!! I think that so many people fail to recognize the difference for a child between knowing what's right, and being able to do what's right every single time. I also think that many, many people confuse compassionate guidance with acceptance of the mistake/bad choice, and come down either way too harshly or too lightly.

It's funny because my own 7.5 year old would not have taken the money, either in my house or that of anyone else (he would have asked how much was there, and would have wanted to examine the $100 bills because we rarely use cash). As a 7 year old, though, *I* might have taken some of it. There were a few things that I stole from the ages of 3-7. I *knew* it was wrong, but I couldn't help myself, period. I'm neither a criminal (or tax evader!







) nor a klepto, and I respect the property of others. I do, however, carry around some emotional wounds from the VERY hard time I was given about it -- repeatedly being asked why, and whether I *wanted* to turn out to be a criminal, and so forth.

We *do* have to be careful to not ascribe our adult motives to young children.


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

OP







:


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
You know, I may just have spent too much time in the GD forum.

But the thing is that knowledge about possession (which is a very complex thing) and impulse control not to take something are way, way, way, apart. Also, sharing and stealing are all complex ideas.

is such a thing possible?? i find GD to be such a learning experience, on an almost daily basis.









I agree w/ you and think your point is a very important on for us all to realize..regardless of age, we are talking about children, not hardened criminals.


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## Rosehip (Dec 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 

I will also talk to MIL, nephew's grandmother and see if we can set something up. I don't even think she knows what happened regarding the money, and if she finds out the party was cancelled there will be all kinds of hell, so I know he'll listen to her.









I'm SO happy! I've been following this thread, absolutely broken-hearted for this little guy. He needs role models, clear expectations and tons of love and attention and it sounds like you're stepping up to the plate!!! Hopefully you'll inspire the other adults in his life too.


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## diamond lil (Oct 6, 2003)

I talked to BIL last night and asked him if he would reconsider nephew's birthday party. He said that after thinking about it, it did seem like a harsh punishment, so the birthday party is back on! I can't take full credit for that, since he was already thinking about it, but I think he was glad I suggested it. And I am glad I didn't have to call out the big guns (MIL)!









So next weekend, the whole family will be celebrating nephew's 8th birthday at the bowling alley just like he wanted. It's time for our little family to forgive and forget his lapse in judgement.

FWIW, I discussed the issue with my therapist last night. He agreed that nephew had no concept of the value of the money. He also said that nephew was probably curious of the money, and it is not uncommon for little kids to pick things up that don't belong to them, not exactly intending to "steal" them. I think that's pretty fair.

I asked him point-blank if DH and I should have apologised for leaving the money out (that is the one thing that has bothered me all along, because I don't think we should have to apologise). He said no, apologising would be sending a mixed message to the child. But he was happy that I asked BIL to re-instate the party and was glad that the party is back on.

We are all glad that we can learn from this and enjoy nephew's birthday next week.


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Thanks for the wonderful update, lil!

Have you decided what you're going to do about getting BIL to quit pawning off his kid on you?


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## almama (Mar 22, 2003)

Hooray!! I love when I see people keeping an open mind and ear to alternatives because it encourages me to keep doing so







:


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## diamond lil (Oct 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frog* 
Thanks for the wonderful update, lil!

Have you decided what you're going to do about getting BIL to quit pawning off his kid on you?

That is a whole other can of worms! I think part of the problem is BIL's wife (nephew's stepmom and my SIL) who has very little patience for kids. Period. Granted, she does have a 7 week old infant at home, but she was extremely impatient with nephew before she ever got pregnant. This has been an issue several times before, with other family members suggesting she increase her involvement. I think she can step up a little. I can step up a little. DH and BIL can start to include him more in their activities. I think we can all step up a little. Nephew is smart, a good kid, and just plain lovable. He needs more attention from everybody. Maybe this little episode was a wake-up call for all of us.


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

What a great update!


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

What a wonderful update!! Your nephew is very, very lucky to have you in his life.


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## GSMama (Jul 26, 2006)

It's nice to see this turned out so well for your DN and he's getting his party.

Maybe a bit of unsolicited advice but on the issue of having him "dumped" on you, I had the same problem years ago with DH and a friend of his. The two of them always assumed I wouldn't mind keeping and eye on said friend's obnoxious boys and would repeatedly take off to do stuff together leaving me with the kids. Being kidless at the time, I don't think my DH realized the burden they were leaving me with...I liked the kids for the most part but didn't enjoy spending entire afternoons chasing them around the house while the guys were off gallivanting....and it made bitter to be honest.

I felt bad because they had kind of a crummy mom and their dad was super absent-minded when it came to their needs so I found myself filling in out of guilt and becoming angry with myself because of it.

Your DH could do with a talking to if he's enabling his brother to do other activities by providing him with a babysitter (you) and accompanying him for the fun as you mentioned in one of your earlier posts. I had the conversation with my DH and he quickly curbed the reliance on me as a babysitter with his friend and they did stuff where the kids were included instead.

I wish you luck


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## chloema (Apr 12, 2002)

I find this thread really interesting because it really seems like a cut and dry situation to me. People should not take things that do not belong to them. It doesn't matter if that person is 7 or 70. The OP should be able to leave her money out w/o having to worry that it will be stolen. I have a 6 1/2 year old who knows and understands the very basic rule of "If it's not yours, don't touch it without asking first". Even when she finds loose change lying somewhere in our house, she knows to ask before taking it and keeping it as her own. Right is right and wrong is wrong, and I don't understand how anyone can say that the OP is at fault in this situation. She did not cause his party his party get cancelled. His actions caused his party to get cancelled and he needs to understand that. He knew that the money did not belong to him, yet decided to take it anyway. That was a poor decision on his part. If you are taught not to steal, what difference does it make if there is money lying on a counter. You know it's not yours, so you go on your merry way. I am glad that the bil took the situation seriously, although threatening to hit him is not ok in my book.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chloema* 
I find this thread really interesting because it really seems like a cut and dry situation to me. People should not take things that do not belong to them. It doesn't matter if that person is 7 or 70. The OP should be able to leave her money out w/o having to worry that it will be stolen. I have a 6 1/2 year old who knows and understands the very basic rule of "If it's not yours, don't touch it without asking first". ...

Ah, but this wasn't your child. And it wasn't the OP's child either. And we have heard from several posters that have said that their child might not understand this to be stealing. So you can't automatically assume that THIS child understood the full situation. Should she And thus she should have been more careful with the money to begin with. That would be prudent on the OPs part, whether or not she "should" have needed to do so.


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## chloema (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom* 
Ah, but this wasn't your child. And it wasn't the OP's child either. And we have heard from several posters that have said that their child might not understand this to be stealing. So you can't automatically assume that THIS child understood the full situation. Should she And thus she should have been more careful with the money to begin with. That would be prudent on the OPs part, whether or not she "should" have needed to do so.

Yes, it wasn't my child, but I can't believe that a 7 year old would not know that taking someone else's money wasn't stealing. I'm sorry, I just don't believe it. If we were talking about a 3 year old, then yeah, I could see it, but not a 7 year old.


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chloema* 
If you are taught not to steal, what difference does it make if there is money lying on a counter. You know it's not yours, so you go on your merry way.

But maybe he wasn't taught before this. Stealing isn't anything we've talked to our son about yet. It's never come up. If he were to take something we'd have to talk about it but so far there's been no real reason to discuss it as he's never taken anything he shouldn't.

Loose change lying around the house? That goes to whoever found it in our house. We all have wallets where we keep what we need so if there's loose change around the house it's usually left over from delivery and wasn't enough to warrant getting put back into someone's wallet.


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## almama (Mar 22, 2003)

With all due respect, I think Chloema deserves a new thread. The OP seems happy with her outcome and this seems like it will turn into a long discussion . . .


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## thyme (Jul 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chloema* 
I find this thread really interesting because it really seems like a cut and dry situation to me. People should not take things that do not belong to them. It doesn't matter if that person is 7 or 70.

I think it's not so cut and dry.

If you are visiting someone, you actually are welcome to take certain things without asking. You can help yourself to a tissue from the box, use the tissue, and throw it away. As many times as you need! You can use paper towels, and soap too. You might be able to take food if it's left out in a certain way (e.g. a candy dish) but not in other ways (e.g. bananas on a counter.)

If you are outside and find money on the sidewalk, you can pick it up without asking.

We learn all of these things over time, through observation of usual behavior, and from having caring people who gently teach us the nuances. To make it seem so cut and dry, when in fact you'd probably be unhappy if he did NOT take some of her toilet paper to wipe his bum (toilet paper which doesn't belong to him, it's her house!), is not fair to the boy.


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## OhDang (Jan 30, 2008)

My 7yo i nanny for wouldn't know how much 400 dollars was, and i can see if she saw a whole bunch of dollars laying around how she might take it. I don't think they should cancel his birthday that seems a bit extreme. Maybe take away something that he loves, but not his birthday!


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## OhDang (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thyme* 
I think it's not so cut and dry.

If you are visiting someone, you actually are welcome to take certain things without asking. You can help yourself to a tissue from the box, use the tissue, and throw it away. As many times as you need! You can use paper towels, and soap too. You might be able to take food if it's left out in a certain way (e.g. a candy dish) but not in other ways (e.g. bananas on a counter.)

If you are outside and find money on the sidewalk, you can pick it up without asking.

We learn all of these things over time, through observation of usual behavior, and from having caring people who gently teach us the nuances. To make it seem so cut and dry, when in fact you'd probably be unhappy if he did NOT take some of her toilet paper to wipe his bum (toilet paper which doesn't belong to him, it's her house!), is not fair to the boy.

Plus 7 is very young still.


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## LiamnEmma (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chloema* 
Yes, it wasn't my child, but I can't believe that a 7 year old would not know that taking someone else's money wasn't stealing. I'm sorry, I just don't believe it. If we were talking about a 3 year old, then yeah, I could see it, but not a 7 year old.

My seven year old doesn't understand, and she's a typically developing child.


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## chloema (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LiamnEmma* 
My seven year old doesn't understand, and she's a typically developing child.

What exactly are you saying that your child wouldn't understand? The concept of not taking things that don't belong to you, or the idea that $400 is quite a bit of money. I can see a child having no idea of the value of $400, but the dollar amount is irrelevant imo. If these kids are totally ignorant about how it is wrong to take things that don't belong to them, I am surprised that this has not been an issue previously. When they are at a friend's house, do they take toys that don't belong to them? When they are at the store do they steal things there? If not, why? I'm guessing it is because they know that those things do not belong to them, because they were taught (on some level) that stealing is wrong. Or if that isn't the case, then why? I really don't understand how people can say that they have never talked to their children about stealing. It just seems like a very basic idea that most 4 year olds would understand. I am around children all the time (we're homeschoolers) and they all seem to have an idea of ownership and the idea that it is wrong to take someone that belongs to someone else. I'm not saying that they wouldn't steal money if it was left out, but I do believe that they "know better". Heck, even I knew and understood that at that age. I have to admit that I did steal things here and there as a child, but I "knew" that I was taking something that did not belong to me and I knew that it was wrong. For whatever reason, I chose to do it anyway. Not that I'm proud of it...I'm just being honest.


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## FancyPants (Dec 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chloema* 
What exactly are you saying that your child wouldn't understand? The concept of not taking things that don't belong to you, or the idea that $400 is quite a bit of money. I can see a child having no idea of the value of $400, but the dollar amount is irrelevant imo. If these kids are totally ignorant about how it is wrong to take things that don't belong to them, I am surprised that this has not been an issue previously. When they are at a friend's house, do they take toys that don't belong to them? When they are at the store do they steal things there? If not, why? I'm guessing it is because they know that those things do not belong to them, because they were taught (on some level) that stealing is wrong. Or if that isn't the case, then why? I really don't understand how people can say that they have never talked to their children about stealing. It just seems like a very basic idea that most 4 year olds would understand. I am around children all the time (we're homeschoolers) and they all seem to have an idea of ownership and the idea that it is wrong to take someone that belongs to someone else. I'm not saying that they wouldn't steal money if it was left out, but I do believe that they "know better". Heck, even I knew and understood that at that age. I have to admit that I did steal things here and there as a child, but I "knew" that I was taking something that did not belong to me and I knew that it was wrong. For whatever reason, I chose to do it anyway. Not that I'm proud of it...I'm just being honest.

Well, we went through something similar with my, then newly, 7 year old. And reading further I found out this is not that uncommon at this age.
My son has only just started learning the value of money so I doubt your nephew had any concept of how much that was,what it would buy or how long it would take to earn.

Anyway my son was pilfering/stockpiling. Most specifically buttons from his classroom. Putting them in his pocket and then not giving them all back when caught by his teacher nor showing any real remorse about not owning up.
There was a lot of elements to why he did it. Thrill, greed, and reading a lot of stories about thieves/sneaks (Bilbo Baggins, Fantastic Mr. Fox, William stories etc)

There is a lot to this and I specifically DID make a big deal about it. I had him write out a story (he doesn't like lots of printing) about how he would feel if a friend stole from him, made him go to the counsellor, made him write an apology to the teacher, gave the teacher all OUR buttons for the classroom and talked about how to get buttons legitimately.

I agree about the confusion of community property with children (heck even adults).
While my son was going through this phase, the only time he got upset, and came to me without me going to him, was when he had taken a bracelet he had found lying in the classroom but then figured specifically belonged to someone.
So personal property wasn't something he wanted to steal but community property looked like it was abundant (e.g. the treasure box for having read through the week, the buttons, ribbons etc).
It was harder to see that it would hurt someone. Heck much of the problems we have with the environment today are the result of exactly this kind of greed over what seems to be more than enough for everybody - but isn't really. Seven year olds don't divide very well but I'm not so sure we do either.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Chloema I see you're new to the discussion and to the forums but as you read the OP's therapist supported the view that a 7 year old might not understand/have impulse control about these things.

I posted earlier in the thread but it really is very normal. I think sometimes parents of younger kids think their kids have learned about property and will never steal and then are shocked when they do (if they discover it). But it is a part of the growing/testing process to waffle back and forth on it.

If you are familiar with child development models, Piaget defined one where a child up to about the age of 7 is in the preoperational stage of cognitive development. In this stage a child is still testing fantasy vs. reality. They do things "because mummy said so."

As they move into the concrete stage that is where a lot of testing occurs (and where their ideas about rules start to solidify and become internalised so they do it "because it is wrong," not just "because mummy said so").

So basically that transition from age 7 to age 9 is sort of "prime" stealing stage as children test out their new more independent moral reasoning. Then their views tend to solidify for a few years at a very black and white view ("stealing is always wrong because that is THE RULE that I choose to follow whether mummy is there telling me not to or not"), and then as they come into early adolescence they go through a new stage (where they start to recognize mitigating circumstances) .

Kohlberg did interesting research on this too.

Links:
http://honolulu.hawaii.edu/intranet/...tip/piaget.htm
http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/kohlberg.htm
http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/kohlberg.htm

Sure, in our response it has to be pretty cut and dried ("that is not yours; we need to take it back right now.") But it is not the same as a 70 year old stealing. (Unless said 70 yr old is developing Alzheimers or something similar, which does impact on THEIR impulse control biochemically.)


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

GuildJenn, I think I love you.

I posted earlier about the developmental appropriateness of 7 year olds telling fibs and stealing. It's in what Piaget describes as testing reality. And you have posted some awesome links. And I love Piaget's work, just couldn't remember all the way back to my developmental pschology class







Thanks for your work on finding the links.


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## LiamnEmma (Nov 20, 2001)

Chloema, she doesn't understand the implications of those actions. She would actually be unlikely to touch it anyway just because she doesn't tend to get into other people's things, but in our home most things are community property and we spend limited time at other people's houses. She does know not to take anything from a store because she's tried it. But not all 7 year olds really understand all the social implications involved in taking a little bit from a large stack of anything. And mine doesn't. Now, my atypically developing 8 year old would certainly have understood most of it last year when he was 7, and might have tried to snitch a bill or two as well. That's who he is; a boundary tester. He would also have understood the amounts. But again, he would not have understood all the social implications of his actions. This year he would definitely understand much more of the nuance involved in such actions.

There were some phrases in your post to me that felt very aggressively confrontive. While I'm happy to defend my position when people ask kindly, I do prefer to be addressed respectfully. I see that you are new. Welcome! This is a great place to be. I hope you enjoy your stay here.


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## LiamnEmma (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva* 
GuildJenn, I think I love you.

I posted earlier about the developmental appropriateness of 7 year olds telling fibs and stealing. It's in what Piaget describes as testing reality. And you have posted some awesome links. And I love Piaget's work, just couldn't remember all the way back to my developmental pschology class







Thanks for your work on finding the links.

Isn't that funny Potty Diva? Last night I was looking over his wikipedia article (coincidentally) and thinking about how much I love him and Erickson.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OhDang* 
Plus 7 is very young still.

Especially when you consider that this child is probably just turning 7 (birthday party etc...unless he is turning 8?) so a month ago we would have been discussing this as the behavior of a 6 YO.

OP good job! It sounds like you really care about your dn and are willing to go above and beyond for him. I think it is very kind of you to have him in your home so much. I am very relived to hear that he will be having a party


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chloema* 
The OP should be able to leave her money out w/o having to worry that it will be stolen.

It was thousands of dollars. Just left on the counter. Not that that means that it is open season on that money, but it just isn't a good idea. Do you leave your keys in the unlocked car, parked out on the curb overnight? Purse in your shopping cart when you leave it to take your dc to the bathroom? In a perfect world, should you be able to? Yes. Is it a good idea? No. If it is important to you, worth a lot, hard to replace then it just seems like a good idea to put it away or keep it right with you.

I know the OP's therapist said not to apologize to dn for leaving it out, but I still think she should. I don't see anything wrong with saying "I was wrong to leave it out on the counter; you were wrong for taking it when it wasn't yours" or something to that effect.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Sorry I have read the frst couple pages and the last one. Sorry if I repeat . . .

gees he is 7, almost 8 (pr 6 almost 7) he saw a large pile of money and thought "no will ever miss a couple of those" I used to nab my parents money until i was well into my teens because they left piles of change around. I would take a dollar or two at a time because I knew they would never miss it. I probably nabbed a couple hundred before it was all said and done. and I knew the value good and well. he obviously didn't fully grasp the value of the money as he was handing it out to neighbor kids.

i think taking away the birthday party was harsh but he did lie and that to me is a bigger deal than taking the money in the first place. Personally I would make my kids sit in time out for a while for lieing about it. the amount that he stole is completely irrelevant. weather it was 4 pennies or 4 $100 bills i don't think he really grasped the value of it. its not like he was going for the most valuble thing in the house. he just saw "hey they have enough to share and so many they will never miss a few. Thats just how kids that age think and while lieing was wrong it was also a very natrual response. he knew he shouldn't have taken it but gees why is everyone suddenly freaking out! panic, lie, freak out yourself. I think most adults would react the same way.

go easy on him. you guys have the chance to reinforce that lieing and stealing is wrong but that even when you make bad choices your family still loves you and forgiveness comes easily. I don't think you need to apologize for leaving the money out but you do need to realize that when you leave small children unattended around anything tempting (money, cake, toys, anything at all you don't want them in) there is the potential for trouble. consider this a lesson in child proofing.

i know at his age he seems really big, especially since you don't have any seven year olds of your own yet but he is not. he is just a very little boy still very young and impulsive and prone to lie under pressure. he was unsupervised, likely bored out of his mind and looking for something more interesting to do. I am not saying he is your ersponsibility but a few toys and video games will not keep a little boy occupied very long. if you leave a 7 year old unattended in a house, especiaslly one other than his own, crazy things will happen. they just will.


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## Rosehip (Dec 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
Chloema I see you're new to the discussion and to the forums but as you read the OP's therapist supported the view that a 7 year old might not understand/have impulse control about these things.

I posted earlier in the thread but it really is very normal. I think sometimes parents of younger kids think their kids have learned about property and will never steal and then are shocked when they do (if they discover it). But it is a part of the growing/testing process to waffle back and forth on it.

If you are familiar with child development models, Piaget defined one where a child up to about the age of 7 is in the preoperational stage of cognitive development. In this stage a child is still testing fantasy vs. reality. They do things "because mummy said so."

As they move into the concrete stage that is where a lot of testing occurs (and where their ideas about rules start to solidify and become internalised so they do it "because it is wrong," not just "because mummy said so").

So basically that transition from age 7 to age 9 is sort of "prime" stealing stage as children test out their new more independent moral reasoning. Then their views tend to solidify for a few years at a very black and white view ("stealing is always wrong because that is THE RULE that I choose to follow whether mummy is there telling me not to or not"), and then as they come into early adolescence they go through a new stage (where they start to recognize mitigating circumstances) .

Kohlberg did interesting research on this too.

Links:
http://honolulu.hawaii.edu/intranet/...tip/piaget.htm
http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/kohlberg.htm
http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/kohlberg.htm

Sure, in our response it has to be pretty cut and dried ("that is not yours; we need to take it back right now.") But it is not the same as a 70 year old stealing. (Unless said 70 yr old is developing Alzheimers or something similar, which does impact on THEIR impulse control biochemically.)

Love this post...I guess I'm a bit of a science/neuroscience/psychology geek


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
What more can I possibly do? I work 5 days a week. Kid is at my house every weekend unless he is dumped at my MIL. He and BIL sometimes come over one or two nights a week. I take him grocery shopping with me sometimes. He behaves extremely well in stores. I've taken him mini-golfing and sledding as weather permits. Yes, I sit him in front of the tv frequently with a video so I can get things done.

*I* am not the problem. The problem is his father who comes to my house to get away from his 7 week old infant and crab-ass wife, stepmother to my nephew. Pretty soon I'm going to have an infant, so maybe he'll find someplace else to hang out. She has zero patience for him. DH and I are planning on telling her she needs to start being a better stepmother to nephew and spending more time with him. She stays at home with their infant, so there is no reason she can't at least try to be a little more engaging.

Like I suggested earlier, if you're not able/willing to supervise him when he's at your house, you ought to make it clear to his parents that they have to keep him with one of them. When you are able to watch him, let them know, but don't have him (or any kid) in your house that you don't want to watch.


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## SmilesALot (Nov 20, 2001)

diamondlil:

it is wonderful to read the conclusion of this post becoz i was also feeling very sorry for your DN's behavior and the consequence on his birthday. It is wonderful that you continued to read the replies and gave us an update on the bday party. My eyes went moist when i read that his bday party is on.
Hope your family has a wonderful celebration and your DN feels how much his family loves him.

Peace & Love!


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## diamond lil (Oct 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SmilesALot* 
diamondlil:

it is wonderful to read the conclusion of this post becoz i was also feeling very sorry for your DN's behavior and the consequence on his birthday. It is wonderful that you continued to read the replies and gave us an update on the bday party. My eyes went moist when i read that his bday party is on.
Hope your family has a wonderful celebration and your DN feels how much his family loves him.

Peace & Love!

Thank you! Everything has pretty much returned to normal. My nephew's birthday party is this Sunday, and we're all looking forward to it.

I'm surprised this thread is still alive! I'm still stunned that there are people who still firmly believe I should accept blame for leaving the money on the counter. I'm still happily unapologetic on that point! The money was still on the counter 5 days later, when I finally had time to make a deposit! Posters will be shocked that it did not grow legs and walk away, or my garden nomes did not steal it.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 

I'm surprised this thread is still alive! *I'm still stunned that there are people who still firmly believe I should accept blame for leaving the money on the counter.* I'm still happily unapologetic on that point! The money was still on the counter 5 days later, when I finally had time to make a deposit! Posters will be shocked that it did not grow legs and walk away, or my garden nomes did not steal it.

If you would have left the money sitting in plain view in your car...say on the dashboard...and it got stolen, would you accept some responsibility for leaving it in the car in the first place?

Or maybe I should ask if you WOULD leave it in your car in plain view...if not, then why?

You have to take responsibility for your property and taking good care of it. I would NEVER leave that much money in my car, nor would I leave it sitting out on my counter with a 6 year old around.
maybe I should be able to do these things in a perfect world, but this isn't a perfect world.
In either situation I would take responsibility for leaving the money in a bad spot.
Not that it would be my fault it got taken, but that if I would have made a better choice in the first place then the situation could have been entirely avoided.

I think that you have VERY unrealistic expectations of a 6 (almost 7) year old and I am sure that when your child is this age you will understand what we are saying.
Kids seem older and like they should be capable of more when they aren't your kids, esp when you have never had kids of your own.

I am surprised, though, that you are still so insistent that your decision to leave the money on the counter had NOTHING to do with the outcome of the situation (money almost getting lost!) when the 6 year old was able to take responsibility for his part.

The adults in this situation left the child in a bad position, one he never should have been in. Unsupervised and a pile of cash on the counter that no one explained to him. I think it is silly to leave it there in the first place, but if you were going to do that and then expect him to understand that under no circumstances was he to mess with it, you should have at the very least told him that!!

Instead, you put something valuable in an unsafe place, and didn't explain to the child the importance of leaving it there. You just expected him to know better (which he OBVIOUSLY didn't) and not touch it. In fact, I would be willing to guess that the whole thing never even crossed your mind. You just put the money down and ASSUMED a 6 year old would leave it alone. My son would have thought that it was play money because we would NEVER leave cash just sitting around like that. We are careful to put valuable things away here...esp because we have kids!!!

Maybe you should really think about why SO many people think you had some amount of responsibility in the situation.

Come now, can you really not see where your decisions laid the groundwork for this to happen?

If you were in that situation again, would you still put the money on the counter?

I don't think that anyone is saying that it's YOUR FAULT he took it. People in this forum generally look for ways to change what they are doing in order to get a more positive outcome with their kids. I think we are all just so used to looking at situations like these and thinking "Okay, what could I have done differently to avoid this outcome?", instead of just finding a punishment for our kids and then moving on. We recognize that we are often part of the problem.

You will find plenty of forums out there that will agree 100% that this all the 6 year olds fault, but this isn't one of those forums. We hold ourselves accountable as well as our children when things like this happen.


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## MattBronsil (Feb 19, 2008)

If we think about development of morality, with Kohlberg, it sounds like he's moving from the Punishment/Consequences stage that defines morality (stage 1) into the Individualism and exchange level. What I see happening are a few things. Here's some food for thought:

--In the first stage of development, according to this theory, a child sees punishments as being the reason an action is wrong. Why is it wrong to steal $400? Because it's against the law. You can get thrown in jail for stealing $400, so it's wrong. It's a backwards thinking to the way we see it, but it's how they see it. We see it as there being a punishment because it is wrong.

--In the 2nd stage of development, punishment is still there, but it is a risk that needs to be avoided, not a proof that something is wrong. If you say to a person at this level of development, "It's wrong to do that because you can go to jail," you might get the thought of, "Well...how can I do it and avoid going to jail?" It sounds like he's starting to get to this stage and beginning to test his new discovery. If he takes it, will he get caught? He might have thought he got away with it the first time, then more money was discovered missing and he probably really felt a crappy feeling in his gut.

Developmentally, $400 is probably more reasonable to steal than candy. It's more tempting. He knows it's wrong on some levels, but not quite on the social level like we do. It's still on a very punishment based level. So he's not thinking, "Is it going to harm someone more if I steal candy or if I steal money?" He's thinking, "Can I get away with this and not get caught and punished?" We have to understand it from the child's development, not where we are as adults.

The taking away of the birthday party is debatable as to whether that is a good move or not. Something like that can easily backfire and lead to where the child doesn't want to tell the truth if he did something wrong and try to cover it up as best he can. It's like parents who hit their children.

"Why did you hit her?"
"Because she lied to me."
"Why did she lie to you?"
"Because she didn't want to get hit."

Well...who can break the cycle there? I'm not saying taking away a birthday party is the same as hitting a child...I definitely do not agree with that. I'm just saying does the punishment fit the crime? And will it bring about an honest assessment of what is wrong?

He's still in the stage where punishments are the main form of understanding morality. So it's natural that he would cry when the punishment was finally delivered. Don't worry about that. Worry about that at a time when he should have developed out of this stage, which is a few years down the road. Help guide him to see more of a social understanding, where it hurts many people to steal. Just don't think that understanding will happen quickly, but it should always be presented.

I don't know about your relationship with your family and how much you can discuss parenting techniques. If you have concerns over the loss of the birthday party not being appropriate and leading to more problems, you might want to address them. Ultimately, though, it's the parents' jobs to decide and enforce the rules. As another role model in that child's life, if the child is not being abused, it is generally wise to not show the child any disagreement with the decision.


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## MattBronsil (Feb 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 

The money was still on the counter 5 days later, when I finally had time to make a deposit! Posters will be shocked that it did not grow legs and walk away, or my garden gnomes did not steal it.


In case it ever does grow legs and walk away, can you leave it directions to my place? I promise to return it, minus any bills that went missing along the way. I'm sure there will be several missing ones, though. Who wouldn't at least try to pick up a few hundred dollar bills as they walk down the street?


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Mattbronsil your post is very well written and I agree EXCEPT that we are talking about a 6 year old.
Not a 9 year old or 12 year old.

There are a lot of different opinions on this thread about where an almost 7 year old boy is developmentally...I really strongly believe that this boy was not yet at that point that you describe.
I don't think he understood how much money he was taking etc because he started giving to other kids in the neighborhood.

and he is 6.years.old.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
and he is 6.years.old.

Actually, he was 7 and is now 8

_"So next weekend, the whole family will be celebrating nephew's 8th birthday at the bowling alley just like he wanted. "_

But who's counting









OP--As a parent, I appreciate a difference between "things my fault I should apologize for" and "things my fault I should learn from". I think this situation is the latter.

It helps sometimes to think of a much younger child.....say a new-to-climbing 1 yo.

My baby was learning to climb, and liked to climb on a bench at our table. He seemed to be doing well, and I stopped hovering and spotting him. Then he fell and hit his head







I didn't apologize, but I learned something--he isn't developmentally ready for that freedom. We blockaded the bench so that he can not climb it unless supervised. I accepted that as my responsibility in the event, and took action to protect ds from further harm.

This is similar to me. He was put in a situation he isn't developmentally to handle appropriately (impulse control), and the stakes were too high (hundreds, rather than singles or change). No, an apology is not needed. But if you take responsibility for your choices that day, you might learn some things about how to set dn up for success in the future.


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## diamond lil (Oct 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
If you would have left the money sitting in plain view in your car...say on the dashboard...and it got stolen, would you accept some responsibility for leaving it in the car in the first place?

My car' dashboard is in plain sight of the public. My kitchen counter is not. Your arguement doesn't hold water. I should be able to assume that if I leave my money, my rings, my purse in the kitchen or in my bedroom, my things will not be bothered. My property in my home should be respected. I think that is an important lesson my nephew learned. He is way past the age where everything is "his."

ETA: I also wanted to point out that money doesn't magically "get lost" as a previous poster stated. I'm sure we've all seen the movie "Amityville Horror," where a large sum of money "went missing" without explanation.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
My car' dashboard is in plain sight of the public. My kitchen counter is not. Your arguement doesn't hold water. I should be able to assume that if I leave my money, my rings, my purse in the kitchen or in my bedroom, my things will not be bothered. My property in my home should be respected. I think that is an important lesson my nephew learned. He is way past the age where everything is "his."


It does hold water. You should have the same right to expect that your property in your car will be respected, but that is unrealistic.
It is unrealistic to expect without a doubt that a child that young can be trusted with that kind of responsibility. Especially since no one ever explained to him what was expected of him in the situation. I think the outcome kind of proves that point









I don't think it was okay to take the money, I am not saying he didn't have any idea it was wrong, I am saying that it was a lot of responsibility for a child of that age. I would not put a child in that kind of position, and if for some reason I had to I would explain to the child that this was an object of value and please don't mess with it.

I am just baffled that you still don't see it.

I am not even saying you should apologize to him/....


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## LiamnEmma (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

I don't think he understood how much money he was taking etc because he started giving to other kids in the neighborhood.
You know, not so much that I'm responding to this exact quote, but it's close by and I didn't want to search through the previous ones to find one like this, but I was thinking about this part of it all and my own kids. Now, if one of my kids hopped off with sums of money like that I would not be at all surprised to find that they were handing it out, regardless of their understanding of the actual value. My children regularly see me giving money out to people who ask me for money on the street. I made peace with this idea of giving money to people who ask years ago and so if I've got some in my purse, I'll share it with others. Someone might get a dollar, someone might get 20 dollars. I usually don't carry much money period, but when I do, it's generally 40 dollars or fewer, and I'll almost always hand about half of it over. I just think it's right. So. From that perspective of share with others and take care of your neighbor, I have to say that if my kids ran off with some of my cash and then handed it out, I would be simultaneously upset that they'd done it (and with myself for leaving it available to them), and very proud that they were following my belief system.


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## LiamnEmma (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

I don't think that anyone is saying that it's YOUR FAULT he took it. People in this forum generally look for ways to change what they are doing in order to get a more positive outcome with their kids. I think we are all just so used to looking at situations like these and thinking "Okay, what could I have done differently to avoid this outcome?", instead of just finding a punishment for our kids and then moving on. We recognize that we are often part of the problem.
Yes this.







I've also been thinking this.

Diamondlil, I hope the party's a hit.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
It does hold water.

I don't think it does either. To leave something out in plain view of the public is different from leaving it inside your home. Either way, though, if someone takes it that person is violating the law and still will be held accountable should s/he get caught. The difference is that you'd get a lecture from the cops if you left money out in your car but not your home. No one would say, "well, you should have expected the burglar took the money. It was on your counter" as if the burglar had no culpability. I'm just a little surprised that so many posters don't give enough credit to an 8-year-old to think he knows not to just take things.


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## MattBronsil (Feb 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
I'm just a little surprised that so many posters don't give enough credit to an 8-year-old to think he knows not to just take things.

You're misreading what they are saying. Entirely.

I think this was clarified in a previous post, but just in case...

We, as parents, know we have to be careful not to set up situations where this is likely to happen. We do not leave sharp knives out when the children are toddlers, we do not leave a box of change by an exposed electrical plug when a baby is around, and we do not leave large sums of money on the counter when an 8 year old is around.

It's not saying it's the parent's fault the money was taken as much as it is the parent's lack of judgement for putting the money there in the first place. It was a mistake and unless a person can see that, they're setting themselves up to be disappointed again.

Matt


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