# what differnces have you seen between CIO babies and AP?



## Deir (Aug 19, 2005)

I know this is the right way to be for all the reasons but I need a bit of a boost right now! So- share with me your impressions, anecdotes etc. here's mine-

My sister is very similiar to me in many ways but she is a firm believer in CIO-I think her two kids are extremely clingy and often fearful.

There are a couple other CIO kids I know who throw many more tantrums than the AP kids I know


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

The biggest thing I have seen is CIO babies are lifeless.


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## turtlemama77 (Jul 29, 2005)

This might be a personality thing, but it seems like the toddlers of parents who don't seem to be as attached and who used CIO are more clingy. For example, when we go to storytime, dd pretty much ditches me during toy time and never looks back. She's very confident, and while she will check in occasionally by just looking around for me, she has a blast. There is one little girl there who I know was ferberized who pretty much won't leave her mother's side. Granted, my dd does have her days when she's velcro baby, so like I said, maybe it's a personality thing. CIO babies just don't seem as confident, in my opinion.


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## MichaelsSahm (May 11, 2006)

I see differences big time, my son is very confident, he will just ditch me so he can play with kids, where as I seemy SIL's little boy who she lets himself cry to sleep be all clingy and very sad.

My son is very confident, and I believe its because he knows we're there for him, and that we will never ignore his feelings.


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## BelovedK (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momto l&a*
The biggest thing I have seen is CIO babies are lifeless.


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## elmh23 (Jul 1, 2004)

My daughter is cautious by nature and definatly goes through velcro moments, however what I've noticed is my daughter seems to always know she could come to me and I'll be there, whereas the kids I know you haved CIO'd don't have that knowledge. They are constantly fearing that mama won't be there and won't leave, where my dd will, even if it takes her a while.


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## Deir (Aug 19, 2005)

lifeless? How sad!! BUt I thi k I know what you mean. My dh and I call them zombie babies. At storytime, there is a baby who just sits in his carseat with a pacifier ( he's around the same age as Frankie- 9 months) while Frankie is sitting on the carpet with Myles or bouncing on my lap, just basiclly involved in a baby way. I guess that baby is "easier" NO thanks!


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## dynamohumm6 (Feb 22, 2005)

I only know a couple CIO kids, and I have to say, they've all been very "violent". I know three of them - as toddlers, they bite, slap, kick, and are very physically aggressive. I know that most kids go through this, but it seemed to me like it's a harder habit to break in CIO kids. Not sure if there's any correlation, but there it is. I do not know any non-CIO kids that had such a hard time with the physical aggressiveness thing. Also, none of those kids were spanked.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

I don't know. I can't say that I've seen any consistent differences, not ones you could nail down. My DD has never been allowed to CIO, but she is extremely clingy in public situations. She's just naturally reserved and slow to warm up. I'd hate to think people are saying behind my back that she must be a CIO baby. And I've known CIO kids that were extremely resilient and independent. I've also known AP kids that hit and bite, and non-APed kids that never show aggression.

I'm not defending CIO by any means, don't get that idea. I just don't think you can point the finger and say that certain behaviors and personality differences are the result or not of CIO. The total parenting package, and the child's own temperament, all matter a lot.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Llyra*
I'm not defending CIO by any means, don't get that idea. I just don't think you can point the finger and say that certain behaviors and personality differences are the result or not of CIO. The total parenting package, and the child's own temperament, all matter a lot.

ITA with this.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

I don't know. I can't say that I've seen any consistent differences, not ones you could nail down. My DD has never been allowed to CIO, but she is extremely clingy in public situations. She's just naturally reserved and slow to warm up. I'd hate to think people are saying behind my back that she must be a CIO baby. And I've known CIO kids that were extremely resilient and independent. I've also known AP kids that hit and bite, and non-APed kids that never show aggression.

I'm not defending CIO by any means, don't get that idea. I just don't think you can point the finger and say that certain behaviors and personality differences are the result or not of CIO. The total parenting package, and the child's own temperament, all matter a lot.










Personally, I've known some happy, secure CIO babies and some clingy, anxious cosleepers. I think personality is what really matters, plus "total parenting package."


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## MamaRabbit (May 26, 2005)

I did CIO with my first because I didn't know any better. Am not doing with this one! It'll be interesting to figure out how to weed out the personality part and see which part is the actual result of the CIO. And I wonder if I'll be able to compare children to notice the difference.

DD is secure and confident, but could that be personality is stronger than CIO? But she's also violent... could be from CIO or from DH teaching her taekwando too early.

Anyone wanna come analyze my kids?


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## RootBeerFloat (Nov 22, 2005)

I read a story once from a mom who has 5 kids. Coslept and bf with 1 and 2, CIO with #3, coslept but nightweaned early with #4, closlept and bf with #5. Her observation was that #3 was by far the most fearful of her children, needing constant support and reinforcement while the others did not. #4 stopped bfing at 11 months, and mom thought this was the result of the nightweaning. She deeply regretted both decisions, to CIO and nightwean.

I DO think CIO matters, but none of the CIO parents I know are AP--I think if you're likely to CIO, you do other things to violate your kids' trust and are generally less responsive to them. I agree with Dr Sears' assertion that CIO leads parents down a path of being less attuned to babies' cries, because you have to turn off something inside of you to be able to do it.

My dd is a high-needs child. She is pretty clingy, but seems much more confident than alot of her CIOed peers. I notice that she seems to grow through her separation anxiety more than some of her CIOed peers, and seems more confident. I think that CIO is especially risky for high-needs kids, who you are the most likely to want to CIO with because they are so draining. My niece is high needs, was CIO at 3 months, and is the clingyest, neediest 2 year old that I think I've ever met. She and my dd were VERY similar at birth and through the first year. I believe that a major difference between them is that dd get her needs met 24 hours a day and niece's needs are met at the convenience of her parents.

I agree with the zombie baby description above; every baby I know who was CIO went through a period of lifelessness.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*









Personally, I've known some happy, secure CIO babies and some clingy, anxious cosleepers. I think personality is what really matters, plus "total parenting package."

I would agree with this.
I have friends that have used CIO and their kids are fine. I see no difference between theirs and mine.

I wish I could say I saw a difference, but I havent.


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## RootBeerFloat (Nov 22, 2005)

Three more quick things--

dependance on comfort objects. Several of the babies that I know who CIO from very young are seriously addicted to comfort objects--pacifiers, their thumbs, etc. Shouldn't they be addicted to their moms?

A mom I know who CIO from birth, her dd is unable to fall asleep in her arms. She only sleeps by herself. This sucks for airtravel and is I think the saddest thing I have ever heard.

Finally, even if there's no difference between CIO kids and cosleeping ones, which I don't believe, but if I'm wrong, for me, it's a values decision. I belive that all life is divine, and I can't simultaneously honor dd's divinity and meet her needs. And how on Earth could I expect her to honor her own divinity--or anyone elses--if I don't honor hers.


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## annarosa (Aug 30, 2004)

I have not seen consistent differences between CIO babies and AP babies - I think it is really difficult to say.
in fact, my dd attends a playgroup in the mornings and I would say that she is one of,if not the most, anxious and shy children who go there - the others tend to be bossy and confident .............


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## proudmamanow (Aug 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annarosa*
I have not seen consistent differences between CIO babies and AP babies - I think it is really difficult to say.
in fact, my dd attends a playgroup in the mornings and I would say that she is one of,if not the most, anxious and shy children who go there - the others tend to be bossy and confident .............









:

i think it's a personality thing b/c dd has never CIO, rarely sleeps alone for more than 45 min and is pretty clingy & anxious...then again, she's only 13 months!

as a pp said, it's more about means than ends, yk?


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## Pynki (Aug 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ally'smom*
Three more quick things--

dependance on comfort objects. Several of the babies that I know who CIO from very young are seriously addicted to comfort objects--pacifiers, their thumbs, etc. Shouldn't they be addicted to their moms?

A mom I know who CIO from birth, her dd is unable to fall asleep in her arms. She only sleeps by herself. This sucks for airtravel and is I think the saddest thing I have ever heard.

Finally, even if there's no difference between CIO kids and cosleeping ones, which I don't believe, but if I'm wrong, for me, it's a values decision. I belive that all life is divine, and I can't simultaneously honor dd's divinity and meet her needs. And how on Earth could I expect her to honor her own divinity--or anyone elses--if I don't honor hers.

I think this is an unfair charactarization. All of my children co-slept with us until they were at least year and all of them had comfort object (blankie, pacifier, thumb). They were all breastfed on demand too, so I don't think that's an absolute.

I mean really, what am I supposed to do with my children with high suckling needs who don't want to nurse? Let them cry? That would be better? Or let them suck on their thumb (which they found on their own)?


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dynamohumm6*
I only know a couple CIO kids, and I have to say, they've all been very "violent". I know three of them - as toddlers, they bite, slap, kick, and are very physically aggressive. I know that most kids go through this, but it seemed to me like it's a harder habit to break in CIO kids. Not sure if there's any correlation, but there it is. I do not know any non-CIO kids that had such a hard time with the physical aggressiveness thing. Also, none of those kids were spanked.

I agree with this & think it's TOTALLY related!!!!!
These kids are being treated with NO respect for their feelings, why WOULD they have any respect for others??
They're acting out...they want and need more attention, not someone ignoring their cries.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

I have to agree with others- it's hard to pick out just the CIO, because if you CIO, there are usually other things you do as well. It is one aspect of a parenting philosophy.

That said, my son compared to his friends who are CIO is calmer, more affectionate, has a better sense of humor and is much more mellow about toys and "sharing" (as much as 2 year olds can share







). He is trusting and seeks opportunities to play and share a joke- even with grown-ups and strangers.

Just as an interesting comparison- I have a good friend who began life as a mother as a working mom who did all the "traditional" things with her son (weaned at 6 months, CIO, etc.). She felt something was deeply wrong and she quit her job. So, I met her as she was just starting to find her way with her 1 year old son. He was clingy, prone to tears, and perpetually anxious. A year later, she has had a total reversal- she and her son are together 24 hours a day (and both are thrilled with this!), they co-slept for a while (but stopped in a gentle, positive way that felt more like a develomental step than a boot out of the bed), and she is proud of the way she raises him with love and patience with all her actions. The child has also had a complete reversal. He is mishevious (in a funny, happy way), likes to play, is open and friendly, and more accepting of affection and change.


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## Dolphin (Apr 22, 2004)

I can't speak in general terms, but a big difference I have noticed in my ds is that we're just really deeply connected and very emotionally close. I don't know how to describe it, but there is a deep trust within him and a security that just melts my heart and makes me so grateful that I followed my instincts from the day he was born, even though I knew nothing about ap. He has his clingy moments, and I definitely have my not-so-perfect ap moments, but he knows I am there if and when he needs me, and that is something so priceless and beautiful to me. I don't see that as much in the kids I am around whose parents do cio and that sortof mainstream tough-love kind of parenting.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

I haven't been able to detect any differences between my non-cio kids and the cio kids I've known.

Frankly, the differences I noticed were between myself and the parents. The cio parents were well-rested, bright-eyed and enthusiastic about being with their kids. I was a sleep-deprived wreck, desperate for time away from my kids so I could get some rest.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I have removed several posts that either advocated CIO, quoted a post that advocated CIO or mentioned a removed post







If you have any questions or concerns, please PM me.

Please remember that it's inappropriate to uphold or advocate any form of Crying It Out. From the Family Bed and Nighttime Parenting Forum Guidelines:

Quote:

*Welcome to The Family Bed and Nighttime Parenting. This forum has a specific aim: to encourage and support co-sleeping.*

Quote:

Once we become parents it is easy to blame ourselves when our children's behavior seems out of control. The pervasive idea that we should be able to control sleep habits leads us too quickly to call night waking a "sleep disorder" and to wonder what we are doing wrong to cause it. Research gives no indication that anything parents do causes night waking. Babies whose cries are responded to rapidly are not more prone to it. Assuming that there is some method out there to treat sleep "disorders" undermines a parent's confidence. Despite the notion that "healthy, normal" babies sleep through the night, surveys of parents show that most babies do not sleep through the night, at least until all their teeth are in.

While waiting for our children to develop physically and emotionally to the point where they can realistically soothe themsleves to sleep, we need to work on our own development toward tolerance, patience, and acceptance of those aspects of parenting that are beyond our control. What remains in our control is the ability to continue to care for our children even though they are keeping us awake at night; to continue to hold to our own integrity as feeling people.

To embrace a philosophy that takes into account the individual needs of each child is not to ignore the unfortunate reality that we need sleep. We need to nurture ourselves in this process of raising children. The key to tolerance, and the natural passge through the nightwaking years, is to observe, accept, and work with your child's own inner rhythms and timetables, which can lead to the understanding that nurturing your child and nurturing yourself are not mutually exclusive enterprises.

'Natural Family Living' by Peggy O'Mara
*Please appreciate that this forum is not a place to uphold or advocate CIO (Crying It Out). Personal preferences for and encouragement of the use of CIO and similar sleep training methods are inappropriately posted here. Posts of that nature will be edited by the member upon request or will be removed.*

Please feel free to discuss your problems and needs with the intent to learn more about co-sleeping and the family bed.
If you see a post that you feel violates the Forum Guidelines or the MDC User Agreement, please use the triangular post report button located on the bottom left-hand side of the post in question or contact me or BelovedK, the forum moderators. Thanks so much!


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Haven't noticed any difference. My son is neither a co-sleeper nor a CIO kid (we snuggle him to sleep and then put him down by himself most nights), and he's adorable, affectionate, talkative, stubborn, and happy. I know a couple who use rather extreme CIO (I know people here don't support any type of CIO, but IMHO, there is a difference between "let him fuss for five minutes" and "let him scream for hours with the door shut," and they are in the latter category). Their first kid was energetic and independent like my son, but very unhappy as a baby. These days, though, she's a funny, happy little diva of a 4-year-old. And her little brother is a happy, placid baby - not a "zombie" but a quiet kid who likes to sit still and watch while his sister runs around like a human tornado. Our "crunchy" friends who breastfeed, CD and cosleep have a baby who's pretty much the same - sweet, quiet, not too energetic.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama*
I haven't been able to detect any differences between my non-cio kids and the cio kids I've known.

Frankly, the differences I noticed were between myself and the parents. The cio parents were well-rested, bright-eyed and enthusiastic about being with their kids. I was a sleep-deprived wreck, desperate for time away from my kids so I could get some rest.

How sad that you felt this way.







DD never slept more than an hour without nursing, the whole first year of her life. DH deployed for almost 4 months of that time, leaving me completely alone in a new city, almost 1000 miles from home. I had no breaks and no one to watch her for me. I still never felt that other parents were more enthusiastic about being with their kids.

If anything, I feel most CIO parents are constantly looking for a way to get AWAY from their kids. If they weren't, why would they be so eager to make them cry themselves to sleep, as opposed to comforting them to sleep? I've never, never seen a CIO parent who was more eager to spend time with their child than I was. Never. As others have said, CIO is part of a total parenting package, which includes putting your own needs before those of your child. Parents who do that aren't generally enthusiastic about spending time with their kids.


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## MichaelsSahm (May 11, 2006)

I feel more rested because I have my son sleep in bed with me.
I remember a time in my life, where I didn't know what fitted MY family, would I rather listen to my child cry all night? or would I rather have a good night of sleep, with my child in MY bed knowing he is much more happier in MY bed.
Guess which I picked.

I don't think I have seen a paren't who did CIO ever seen more rested, infact, they were the ones complaining the next morning about how little sleep they got, while I woke up with MY child in MY bed, very much happy.


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## kissum (Apr 15, 2006)

I think it has a lot more to do with over-all parenting style as opposed to just cio. I think in general though AP'd kids tend to be more independent.


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*









Personally, I've known some happy, secure CIO babies and some clingy, anxious cosleepers. I think personality is what really matters, plus "total parenting package."

Me too. I have seen very confident and happy Non-AP kids, one just yesterday whose parents used the Ferber method at around 6 months and I have seen clingy AP'd children.

I would also note that if you look in the toddler section, there are some threads from mothers crying for help because their toddler is TOO clingy or always whining when mom is around, and the standard response is that this is BECAUSE children who are used to attachment parenting are, well, ATTACHED!







Here is one such thread:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=455912

And here is another:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=459483

On a different note, there was an article in one of the UK newspapers the other day reporting some researchers' findings that cry-it-out methods, as well as over-using "time-out" as discipline on toddlers, can create children who are less empathetic and more aggressive. I'll see if I can find a link to it.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Plummeting*
How sad that you felt this way.







DD never slept more than an hour without nursing, the whole first year of her life. DH deployed for almost 4 months of that time, leaving me completely alone in a new city, almost 1000 miles from home. I had no breaks and no one to watch her for me. I still never felt that other parents were more enthusiastic about being with their kids.

If anything, I feel most CIO parents are constantly looking for a way to get AWAY from their kids. If they weren't, why would they be so eager to make them cry themselves to sleep, as opposed to comforting them to sleep? I've never, never seen a CIO parent who was more eager to spend time with their child than I was. Never. As others have said, CIO is part of a total parenting package, which includes putting your own needs before those of your child. Parents who do that aren't generally enthusiastic about spending time with their kids.

I agree that it was sad. The sleep deprivation I experienced while co-sleeping was really awful. Perhaps there are other parents - like you - who can cope better than I did by being woken every hour or more. It was very, very difficult for me. Still, I do think it was best for my kids, and it certainly made nursing easier.

However, while I would never, ever advocate CIO, I must disagree with you that CIO is always part of "a total parenting package." It may be for some people, but it wasn't for the parents I knew. They breastfed, wore their babies, used cloth diapers, and were very attached parents. These were not parents who were looking for a way to get away from their kids. What they were looking for was a good night's sleep. They got it, their kids slept through the night pretty quickly, and yes, they were enthusiastic about spending time with their kids, and they had more energy to do so than I did.

I did not agree with their methods, and I could never let a kid CIO. But I think that painting all CIO parents as "people who are constantly looking for a way to get away from their kids" is the kind of statement that gives mainstreamers (who might be open to other methods) the impression that AP parents are a bunch of self-righteous holier-than-thous. A reputation that is not entirely undeserved, in my experience.


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## Maman*Musique (May 13, 2005)

I had an experience with a CIOd toddler that I will never ever forget. A family member (husband's family) CIOd her daughter from 4wks old. We did not have much contact at all with this family but went to visit when the child was about 14mo. She was napping in her crib upstairs and at some point I heard desperate crying. MIL had been babysitting while mom was in the yard, and just said that she always woke up crying. Nobody was rushing to her so I went upstairs and what I saw was a frantic baby standing at the edge of the crib with her arms oustretched reaching for someone, anyone, to come comfort her and get her out. She had a look in her eye that I will never forget. She didn't even know who I was yet she clung to me for dear life. I held her and sang to her and walked her downstairs assuming she wanted her mama. When we got downstairs and I found her mother, the babe clung to me even tighter and would not let me give her to her mom or put her down. I didn't know what to make of this. I can't say for sure that CIO is responsible and I am no expert on attachment disorder but this child seemed like she had some version of it. She clung immediately to any warm body even that of a stranger. It was very disturbing. That mom now has a new baby.
I think it is true that babies and children are incredibly resilient and can survive many types of abuse so there are certainly plenty of well adjusted CIOd babies out there. There is definitely a cost to the child though. And while many survive CIO seemingly intact, many others suffer permanent damage such as RAD


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## Dolphin (Apr 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maman*Musique*
I had an experience with a CIOd toddler that I will never ever forget. A family member (husband's family) CIOd her daughter from 4wks old. We did not have much contact at all with this family but went to visit when the child was about 14mo. She was napping in her crib upstairs and at some point I heard desperate crying. MIL had been babysitting while mom was in the yard, and just said that she always woke up crying. Nobody was rushing to her so I went upstairs and what I saw was a frantic baby standing at the edge of the crib with her arms oustretched reaching for someone, anyone, to come comfort her and get her out. She had a look in her eye that I will never forget. She didn't even know who I was yet she clung to me for dear life. I held her and sang to her and walked her downstairs assuming she wanted her mama. When we got downstairs and I found her mother, the babe clung to me even tighter and would not let me give her to her mom or put her down. I didn't know what to make of this. I can't say for sure that CIO is responsible and I am no expert on attachment disorder but this child seemed like she had some version of it. She clung immediately to any warm body even that of a stranger. It was very disturbing. That mom now has a new baby.
I think it is true that babies and children are incredibly resilient and can survive many types of abuse so there are certainly plenty of well adjusted CIOd babies out there. There is definitely a cost to the child though. And while many survive CIO seemingly intact, many others suffer permanent damage such as RAD









That is so sad







and infuriating all at the same time. Why do people think they have the right to do that!?! Call it self-righteous if you wish, but it just chaps my hide to hear about parents doing this. And I had my share of sleep deprivation, frustration, etc.


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## mommytolittlelilly (Jul 7, 2004)

Maman*Musique, that is such a heart-wrenching story.

Not as bad, but I have had kids come up to me at the library and they seem to be so positively *desperate* to interact with a caring adult, wanting me to talk with them and read stories to them. It's like they could see that I was loving to my little girl, talking and reading to her, and they wanted some of that sort of interaction, even if they're a lot older.

As for CIO, I know I went through it as an (older) baby and I was definitely very, very clingy for a long time. I think my parents wanted more independence from me in general when I was too little, resulting in clingyness. My daughter, who co-sleeps and has not had to go through CIO, will go off and play with other kids without even glancing back at me, for more than an hour. If she's bored/upset/sick, of course she will be more clingy, which is understandable to me.


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## Momo'sMum (Jun 10, 2005)

be consistant with the CIO families we know is that the children fight sleep. Even as they get older, 9-10 years, they come up with every excuse in the book to not go to bed. They seem to have a negative view of sleep and /or have to continuosly keep checking ( just have to tell you one more thing) that someone is still there







. Our children welcome sleep, they go to be smiling and Dd1 will ask to go to bed if she is tired. This is something I have never seen or heard of (from the parents) from the CIO families.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Plummeting*
As others have said, CIO is part of a total parenting package, which includes putting your own needs before those of your child. Parents who do that aren't generally enthusiastic about spending time with their kids.

I think you're misinterpreting what people mean by "total parenting package" - or maybe I am. To me, what it means is that CIO is only one decision out of a multitude of decisions we make every day as parents that affect our relationship with our children. It does not necessarily say anything about the rest of the decisions those parents make. It is possible to breastfeed, cosleep, etc., and be a lousy parent the rest of the time, just as it is possible to CIO, spank, etc., and be an otherwise wonderful parent.

My parents are in the latter category. I resent the fact that they let me CIO and spanked me, and yes, I think those decisions have affected me in negative ways (insomnia for years as a child, and social anxiety) - but I also appreciate that they loved me, spent time with me, insisted on always having one parent at home, played with me, read to me, sat down every night for a family meal, helped us build close relationships with our grandparents, taught me to read and about life, respected my opinions from a young age, gave me plenty of freedom as a teenager, allowed me to be friends with whomever I wanted, never said unpleasant things about my friends or boyfriends, were polite and respectful of my husband, never criticized my parenting choices, and have come to visit me every three months since Corbin's birth to help me around the house and to love and cuddle their only grandchild.

I get angry when I see people here implying that making certain choices means someone is a bad parent, because my parents are not bad parents. Like most of us, they are good and loving parents who tried to do their best and made some bad decisions along the way, and who am I to judge them?


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama*
I did not agree with their methods, and I could never let a kid CIO. But I think that painting all CIO parents as "people who are constantly looking for a way to get away from their kids" is the kind of statement that gives mainstreamers (who might be open to other methods) the impression that AP parents are a bunch of self-righteous holier-than-thous. A reputation that is not entirely undeserved, in my experience.









:

This is the reason I avoided all AP forums like the plague for the first year of my son's life after discovering that I didn't fit the AP mold 100%.


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## Pynki (Aug 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momo'sMum*
be consistant with the CIO families we know is that the children fight sleep. Even as they get older, 9-10 years, they come up with every excuse in the book to not go to bed. They seem to have a negative view of sleep and /or have to continuosly keep checking ( just have to tell you one more thing) that someone is still there







. Our children welcome sleep, they go to be smiling and Dd1 will ask to go to bed if she is tired. This is something I have never seen or heard of (from the parents) from the CIO families.

I think this may be true in a lot of cases. It's true in the case of my boys. They go to sleep when tired, or when I say it's bed time. (now that they're older and don't sleep with us anymore.) Of course nothing is 100% and I have friends who are AP and co-sleep and they have children who are more difficult to get to bed.


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## AmyY (Jul 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Llyra*
I don't know. I can't say that I've seen any consistent differences, not ones you could nail down. My DD has never been allowed to CIO, but she is extremely clingy in public situations. She's just naturally reserved and slow to warm up. I'd hate to think people are saying behind my back that she must be a CIO baby. And I've known CIO kids that were extremely resilient and independent. I've also known AP kids that hit and bite, and non-APed kids that never show aggression.

I'm not defending CIO by any means, don't get that idea. I just don't think you can point the finger and say that certain behaviors and personality differences are the result or not of CIO. The total parenting package, and the child's own temperament, all matter a lot.

Yeah, that. I've got two super-clingy toddlers who go to pieces when I go to pee still to this day. One is a dangerous biter and both fight very physically. They have been AP-ed to the max from the time they left the NICU. They are also sweet and loving and kind and thoughtful and funny and warm. And we often get the patronizing "oh they're so attached" (tsk tsk head shake mournful look) from CIO advocate types who think their personalities have been dictated by their AP upbringing. So it's a bit weird to me to read that some folks here think those personality traits and behaviors come from being CIO'd, when I am accused of causing those very same things in my own children by APing them.

Ahem. Done. Removing self from soapbox.









ETA: my 2 yrs 8 mos old girls are also HUGELY HUGELY HUGELY HUGELY ETC. attached to their transitional objects. Tonight as we nursed to sleep Ali had both hands full and besides that one arm was wrapped around a dolly. And she also insisted on placing my arm in a certain way around her body, and her head in a certain way on my shoulder. Anni had one doll - my little minimalist, LOL. They FREAK if their transitional objects get left behind. And yes, they are being carried while they carry their transitional objects. They are being nursed while they carry them. They are being responded to as quickly as I can manage it each and every time they call for me while they carry them.


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## sarathan (Jun 28, 2005)

I honestly can't say I've seen a difference. I have friends who let their babies CIO and they *seem* fine to me. Then I have friends who never did CIO and their toddlers and very clingy and whiney. But on the flip side, I've seen it the other way around too. I don't know, I really think it might have a lot to do with tempermant and personality. Not that CIO doens't matter, but there are so many other variables and factors that play into it, kwim?


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

my co-sleeping, non-CIO, CLW, AP & GD raised DS is clingy and fearful.







i think it has a lot to do with temperament too. but i think he'd be clingier and more fearful if i didn't make those choices.

but really, i'm not making these choices so that i see "results". i'm making them because i believe CIO to be wrong. even if it doesn't create clinginess or whatever, the act is wrong in and of itself. to me, the ends just do not justify the means.


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## babykaoss (Nov 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ally'smom*
dependance on comfort objects. Several of the babies that I know who CIO from very young are seriously addicted to comfort objects--pacifiers, their thumbs, etc. Shouldn't they be addicted to their moms?

Not the case over here. My dd, who will be 3 in August is still breastfeeding, always has been, never CIO, never used a crib, slept with her daddy and me exclusively, and I really hardly ever left her, yet she is extremely attached to her 'blankey'. Go figure.


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## paxye (Mar 31, 2005)

I think the real differences are seen later ... Like a pp said, children fighting sleep even older is one of the things that I have noticed...

Another thing that I believe is that CIO changed the way the brain develops and later on children that have been left to CIO have more trouble dealing with stress.

Here is a good Article that talks about this...

Kids are resiliant and can stand up to much abuse at times and still look fine... personalities are different etc... some kids are more cuddly, others are more distant...
However, I agree that there are some cases that the effects of CIO can be seen while it is happening...

(if you can't see the full article look here... it is the second article called "Why I no longer believe babies should cry themselves to sleep" by Gabor Mate)


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## MamaKalena (Jun 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Llyra*
I just don't think you can point the finger and say that certain behaviors and personality differences are the result or not of CIO. The total parenting package, and the child's own temperament, all matter a lot.

I have to agree with you Llyra. Most of DH's friends have CIO babies and they are all very different. My DS was a biter when he was younger and at 16-months-old has recently started hitting other kids when they play with his toys. He has never been left to cry unless you count the time it takes for me to run up the stairs to get him when he wakes up.

What I have noticed in the detached kids I know (the ones who are left to cry, not worn and strapped into strollers too much, and bottlefed by choice) just don't seem to be as smart or alert as the AP babies I know.


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## MamaKalena (Jun 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Plummeting*
If anything, I feel most CIO parents are constantly looking for a way to get AWAY from their kids.

I think this is definitely true for extreme CIO Ezzo parents. We have "friends" like that who are shocked that DH and I have not yet spent a night away from DS who is 16-months-old. They, on the other hand, brag about how they left their 2.5 week old for the weekend with the grandparents. It's a sad, sad situation. Can you believe she is a Labor and Delivery nurse, too?


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

I really don't think that it is accurate to assume that any child is like he or she is, because of AP or because of mainstream parenting, or because of cio.

Personalities are far more complex than that. I know cio kids who are independent, happy and confident. I know AP'd kids who are shy and introverted.

I have three AP'd kids. None have ever been left to cio. But if you saw them out in public, you could assume the worst of my parenting, if you believed that AP somehow gives you a confident, independent, outgoing kid. Or one with a certain sparkle in his/her eye. You'd see my kids clinging to me, recoiling from contact with strangers, and maybe even biting one another.









I have to say that these generalisations bug me. I've read them quite often on AP forums, and I don't think they are particularly useful. Maybe if you have independent, confident kids, it's easy to generalise and assume that your child's confidence has something to do with your AP habits. But if your kids don't fit that mould, you have to see things differently.

I have no doubt that not leaving my kids to cry it out was the best thing for them developmentally, but I am under no illusions that this choice is going to create an outgoing, chatty preschooler in later years. I think that the balance of nurture and nature is far more skewed in favour of nature for that to be accurate.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

I think the clingy thing is not totally related. I have noticed the opposit in fact. Ds and dd were and are very clingy.

Dd started putting herself to sleep just after she turned 2. She still does about half the time. or more.

I think CIO kids still have sleep problems at that age.

I don't think it's fair to categorize CIO and comfort objects all together either. SIL's ds has a comfort blankie and the co-sleep. My kids love their binkies. They could nurse me dry and they still want it.

My kids are feisty, they throw tantrums , they are kids. But I think they are much more confident and trusting in our relationship. That makes a huge difference in the outcome of any given situation.
i think that alot of AP rewards in behavior show up in the long run. They aren't always immediately noticeable. but I think a little in the way of AP goes a long way for future emotional health.

I have noticed a deep sense of being un-attached in CIO kids. Not all, but most.


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## EAGA (Feb 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Llyra*
I don't know. I can't say that I've seen any consistent differences, not ones you could nail down. My DD has never been allowed to CIO, but she is extremely clingy in public situations. She's just naturally reserved and slow to warm up. I'd hate to think people are saying behind my back that she must be a CIO baby. And I've known CIO kids that were extremely resilient and independent. I've also known AP kids that hit and bite, and non-APed kids that never show aggression.

I'm not defending CIO by any means, don't get that idea. I just don't think you can point the finger and say that certain behaviors and personality differences are the result or not of CIO. The total parenting package, and the child's own temperament, all matter a lot.

I agree! A know a few CIO children and most are just fine to be perfectly honest. One comes to mind in particular, she has very loving parents(great parents actually) who do believe in CIO, this child is one of the most social and confident 2 year olds that I know. So I do think its personality, maybe the babe who is clingy or "just sits there during story time" is JUST a shy babe, I was and my mom didnt CIO and I co-slept!


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## sparkprincess (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Llyra*
I don't know. I can't say that I've seen any consistent differences, not ones you could nail down. My DD has never been allowed to CIO, but she is extremely clingy in public situations. She's just naturally reserved and slow to warm up. I'd hate to think people are saying behind my back that she must be a CIO baby. And I've known CIO kids that were extremely resilient and independent. I've also known AP kids that hit and bite, and non-APed kids that never show aggression.

I'm not defending CIO by any means, don't get that idea. I just don't think you can point the finger and say that certain behaviors and personality differences are the result or not of CIO. The total parenting package, and the child's own temperament, all matter a lot.

I have to agree to this. My ds is very, very clingy. Very reserved. I'm SURE CIOers are snickering behind my back because co-sleeping, etc has made him that way.







:

Personally, I haven't seen any differences in kids who were made to CIO occaissonally. I HAVE seen a major difference in kids who were totally Babywised in all areas, but that's pretty extreme.

I just parent my ds the way I think is right instead of parenting to get a "perfect" kid, ya know?


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## Deir (Aug 19, 2005)

I feel kind of bad that I posted the OP. I was just annoyed that day at my CIO sister. I guess everybody interprtets clingy differently. My son is having a hard time with me being away in the am to work a few days a week and my CIO sister just went to Rome for 2 weeks however, there is something about her kids that seems more needy in a negative way. (Or more likely it is my skewed perspective!! LOL) Anyway- I definitely think personality, TV, or all theother factors that everyone has mentioned are part of a child's behavior.


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## paxye (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deir*
I feel kind of bad that I posted the OP. I was just annoyed that day at my CIO sister. I guess everybody interprtets clingy differently. My son is having a hard time with me being away in the am to work a few days a week and my CIO sister just went to Rome for 2 weeks however, there is something about her kids that seems more needy in a negative way. (Or more likely it is my skewed perspective!! LOL) Anyway- I definitely think personality, TV, or all theother factors that everyone has mentioned are part of a child's behavior.

Don't feel bad... I do think that there is a difference between babies that have not been responded to and those who have. Like I said in my pp CIO changes the way the brain develops so we may not see those differences now in all kids there are great chances that we will see them later....

CIO is harmful even though kids are resiliant...


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## clavicula (Apr 10, 2005)

:


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sparkprincess*
I have to agree to this. My ds is very, very clingy. Very reserved. I'm SURE CIOers are snickering behind my back because co-sleeping, etc has made him that way.

I am mentally collecting a list of model-behaved children I know who are parented in ways I approve of, so if anyone gives me crap, I can say "Look at so-and-so's kid - he's never been spanked and he's a little angel!"







: It may not mean anything, but at least I'll have a good comeback if anyone accuses me of ruining my kid with my parenting decisions.


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## katerkat (Aug 13, 2005)

Between a friend who does CIO every night, and myself who co-slept (he now sleeps in a crib in our room), I would hesitantly say, mine is more loving. She often comments that hers never wants to cuddle on her lap, or just come over for a quick hug. Mine does that all the time. But - who knows? It could be their personalities.

DS is rather clingy (we're going through a separation anxiety phase right now) and he does have a comfort object. It's actually my blankie from when I was a kid - go figure.


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

theirs (CIO) sleep, mine doesn't.


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## Dolphin (Apr 22, 2004)

I'm really surprised by the tone of some pp's who seem somewhat bitter or something that CIO kids seem to sleep more or that CIO parents are more rested. I don't really think that's always true. My sis in law is a CIO'er, and she always loves to talk about how her son (18 mos at the time) sleeps 12 hours straight...blah blah blah. But we were visiting one night and I remember waking several times to hear his cries. It was all I could do not to go in a get him and bring him in to snuggle with us! So it's not that he's sleeping 12 hours, it's that she doesn't respond to him for 12 hours, so it's all the same to her. Very sad.


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## sphinx (Mar 13, 2003)

Well, ironically I'm on MDC tonight searching for a ray of light to help with my unbelievably horrible sleep situation. My previous post was made tongue-in-cheek, but if you want to know, I DID just spend 2.5 hours putting (that is, rocking, bouncing; tendonitis-inducing work) my exhausted but ready-to-party 19 month old ds to sleep and, based on what I know of his routine, he WILL wake up in about 2 more hours to nurse and bite my nipples relentlessly, and again after that probably 3-4 more times, before he finally gets me out of bed at 6:30am IF i am lucky (last week it was 4:30 every morning). This is a much improved schedule from 0-12 months, when he woke up every 30-45 minutes.

We explored every possible allergy, medical problem, etc. I have researched and given him every homeopathic and herbal medication for calming, teething, gassiness, etc. NOTHING has helped my situation but time. I have been responsive, continued the family bed and have tried to scrape myself together for my 6.5 year old dd. I have NO time for myself, I desperately need my sleep, and I'm a *little* tired.

Yes, I admit I am envious when my CIO friends - loving, wonderful people with happy, well adjusted children - tell me about their long luscious nights of sleep and even how they go out to concerts occasionally because someone else is actually willing to babysit while their children ... sleep! I realize it's unpleasant to complain. Sorry if i sound frustrated - I am!

p.s. yes, i realize cio kids are ignored and that's really awful, that's why i don't do it!


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## Dolphin (Apr 22, 2004)

You do sound really frustrated, and I wasn't saying you don't have the right to be. Believe me, I feel your pain - I spent 2.5 years with a non-sleeping, frequently waking, intensely nursing little guy. I was simply saying I'm surprised by the tone I'm hearing from several mamas. I've always been really defensive, I guess, of NOT cio, and it's always been nice to come here to be amongst mamas who believe the same way. It just sounds like some people think CIO would solve their problems (even if no one would ever do it), which I find surprising. Like my sis-in-law, it doesn't often create sleepers, it just takes the parents out of nighttime picture.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sphinx*
Well, ironically I'm on MDC tonight searching for a ray of light to help with my unbelievably horrible sleep situation. My previous post was made tongue-in-cheek, but if you want to know, I DID just spend 2.5 hours putting (that is, rocking, bouncing; tendonitis-inducing work) my exhausted but ready-to-party 19 month old ds to sleep and, based on what I know of his routine, he WILL wake up in about 2 more hours to nurse and bite my nipples relentlessly, and again after that probably 3-4 more times, before he finally gets me out of bed at 6:30am IF i am lucky (last week it was 4:30 every morning). This is a much improved schedule from 0-12 months, when he woke up every 30-45 minutes.

We explored every possible allergy, medical problem, etc. I have researched and given him every homeopathic and herbal medication for calming, teething, gassiness, etc. NOTHING has helped my situation but time. I have been responsive, continued the family bed and have tried to scrape myself together for my 6.5 year old dd. I have NO time for myself, I desperately need my sleep, and I'm a *little* tired.

Yes, I admit I am envious when my CIO friends - loving, wonderful people with happy, well adjusted children - tell me about their long luscious nights of sleep and even how they go out to concerts occasionally because someone else is actually willing to babysit while their children ... sleep! I realize it's unpleasant to complain. Sorry if i sound frustrated - I am!

p.s. yes, i realize cio kids are ignored and that's really awful, that's why i don't do it!


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

oh yeah, i've been there with frustration. many many many times. but like i said, the ends don't justify the means for me. even if they sleep great, even if they're not scarred for life...leaving a child alone in a room to cry is just plain old wrong to me. i don't care why it's done or how "successful" it is, i really don't. for the time that it's going on it is cruel and i will never do it.


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## paxye (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dolphin*
I'm really surprised by the tone of some pp's who seem somewhat bitter or something that CIO kids seem to sleep more or that CIO parents are more rested. I don't really think that's always true. My sis in law is a CIO'er, and she always loves to talk about how her son (18 mos at the time) sleeps 12 hours straight...blah blah blah. But we were visiting one night and I remember waking several times to hear his cries. It was all I could do not to go in a get him and bring him in to snuggle with us! So it's not that he's sleeping 12 hours, it's that she doesn't respond to him for 12 hours, so it's all the same to her. Very sad.


I agree with this completely... I know quite a few moms like this and I have now cut many out of my life completely...
I can't understand how people ignore their childrens cries and then talk themselves into actually thinking that is is needed or even healthy and doesn't have any negative consequences...
I really do think that there is a difference between babies that are ignored and babies that are responded to... it may not manifest itself in the same manner, but in no way does CIO have no negative effects...


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## taterbug1999 (May 5, 2006)

Okay I will open a slightly diff. kettle of worms here... my parents were good parents I love them both dearly (my dad is passed) but they were CIO parents my whole childhood. I think this was more at my fathers insistance because my mom mentions wanting to rescue me and him saying I would learn to sleep or something, anyhow... While I cannot remember being left to cry in infancy I VIVIDLY remember being left to cry in childhood. To this day I will tell my mom all I wanted was her presence- to lay with me until I could sleep again- ( I was high maintenance scaredy cat) and I also VIVIDLY remember crying and crying hysterically for both of them until I would pass out. I am almost thirty and can recall like it was yesterday the aloneness the absolute painful wanting of my mom or dad and it not happening. To this day I have some anxiety issues and still don't fall asleep easily. Now, part of this is my personality, but I thought it was important to share as a CIO child now all grown up. This is why I will NEVER let my children CIO- I'm sorry I just can't do it. For me it invokes all the pain I remember and whether or not they might react with the same feeling I cannot say- but I cannot run that risk. And trust me my kids are not the worlds best sleepers but I can lose a little sleep and a little sanity to ensure they don't have the yucky memory I do.


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## Greensleeves (Aug 4, 2004)

taterbug









Larry Cohen, who wrote _Playful Parenting_, is a therapist who works with children. He talks about how harmful he thinks CIO is--working with kids who are now 9 years old and were made to CIO as babies. Just something to think about.


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## jmhammond (Mar 30, 2005)

I've recently been doing a class/therapy at church and STRONGLY feel that many effects of CIO vs. AP won't be seen in babies as children, but will be felt as adults. A detachment from parents can lead to many adult issues.

One example: my brother was in a lawnmower accident when he was 2 years old. It was horrible and tragic. At the time I was 10 months. Another family took me in for almost 6 months while my parents dealt with my brother's accident (my oldest brother who was 8 had been driving the lawnmower, so there was a lot for them to deal with between the two boys).

I have always had a SEVERELY difficult time saying goodbye to my mom. As a child and teen my dad would joke that the umbilical cord was still attached. I would sob and have this empty feeling that I would never see her again each time I said goodbye.

Through my recent exploration of my past and trying to heal my wounds, I think this detachment as an infant has really affected me as an adult. I think this is true for much of AP.

Just my opinion.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *turtlemama77*
This might be a personality thing, but it seems like the toddlers of parents who don't seem to be as attached and who used CIO are more clingy. For example, when we go to storytime, dd pretty much ditches me during toy time and never looks back. She's very confident, and while she will check in occasionally by just looking around for me, she has a blast. There is one little girl there who I know was ferberized who pretty much won't leave her mother's side. Granted, my dd does have her days when she's velcro baby, so like I said, maybe it's a personality thing. CIO babies just don't seem as confident, in my opinion.

Well, my four year old has had an ap upbringing and clings to me way more than the cio kiddos. So I"m not sure if the AP part prevents that.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michelemiller*
my co-sleeping, non-CIO, CLW, AP & GD raised DS is clingy and fearful.







i think it has a lot to do with temperament too. but i think he'd be clingier and more fearful if i didn't make those choices.

but really, i'm not making these choices so that i see "results". i'm making them because i believe CIO to be wrong. even if it doesn't create clinginess or whatever, the act is wrong in and of itself. to me, the ends just do not justify the means.









:

That's my perception, too.

In fairness to my older dd, even though she coslept (which is what this thread is about) and did all of the other AP stuff, she did go through some really horrible separation from me at a young age. She was separated from me for no reason whatsoever for four hours immediately after she was born. She was not held, just given oxygen for crying hysterically. (that's a whole other thread) She seemed to recover from that experience, then my younger dd needed surgery when the older dd was 22 months old, and I had to be in the hospital 24/7 except for two hours a day that I spent with older dd.

So I cannot say it was just temperament that made her fearful and clingy.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dolphin*
I'm really surprised by the tone of some pp's who seem somewhat bitter or something that CIO kids seem to sleep more or that CIO parents are more rested.

Come on, we're only human.

When you've been up every hour, nursing till your nips feel like they're going to fall off, when you can barely drag yourself through the day because you're so sleep-deprived, when you're wracked with guilt because your older kid is bearing the brunt of your lack of energy to engage with him, when with all of this, your friend who did what you believe to be _absolutely wrong_ (CIO), is bright-eyed, energetic, and loving her nights of sleep, with a delightful child who sleeps from 7pm-7am because she let him cry for a couple of weeks a year ago, while you're still struggling for two hours in a row...how can one not feel bitter?


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## Deir (Aug 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama*
Come on, we're only human.

When you've been up every hour, nursing till your nips feel like they're going to fall off, when you can barely drag yourself through the day because you're so sleep-deprived, when you're wracked with guilt because your older kid is bearing the brunt of your lack of energy to engage with him, when with all of this, your friend who did what you believe to be _absolutely wrong_ (CIO), is bright-eyed, energetic, and loving her nights of sleep, with a delightful child who sleeps from 7pm-7am because she let him cry for a couple of weeks a year ago, while you're still struggling for two hours in a row...how can one not feel bitter?

I hear ya!! Tha's why I posted the OP!! I especially find myself struggling with jealousy about how I look becasue man- sleep dep is aging me fast!!!! However- last night my almost 3 yr old woke scared and all my dh had to do was pick him up, give him a hug and say, "ok buddy?" and he was back to sleep. I have to believe it is because we perservered with him! it is worth it!!


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## Deir (Aug 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama*
Come on, we're only human.

When you've been up every hour, nursing till your nips feel like they're going to fall off, when you can barely drag yourself through the day because you're so sleep-deprived, when you're wracked with guilt because your older kid is bearing the brunt of your lack of energy to engage with him, when with all of this, your friend who did what you believe to be _absolutely wrong_ (CIO), is bright-eyed, energetic, and loving her nights of sleep, with a delightful child who sleeps from 7pm-7am because she let him cry for a couple of weeks a year ago, while you're still struggling for two hours in a row...how can one not feel bitter?

I hear ya!! Tha's why I posted the OP!! I especially find myself struggling with jealousy about how I look becasue man- sleep dep is aging me fast!!!! However- last night my almost 3 yr old woke scared and all my dh had to do was pick him up, give him a hug and say, "ok buddy?" and he was back to sleep. I have to believe it is because we perservered with him! it is worth it!!


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## Deir (Aug 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama*
Come on, we're only human.

When you've been up every hour, nursing till your nips feel like they're going to fall off, when you can barely drag yourself through the day because you're so sleep-deprived, when you're wracked with guilt because your older kid is bearing the brunt of your lack of energy to engage with him, when with all of this, your friend who did what you believe to be _absolutely wrong_ (CIO), is bright-eyed, energetic, and loving her nights of sleep, with a delightful child who sleeps from 7pm-7am because she let him cry for a couple of weeks a year ago, while you're still struggling for two hours in a row...how can one not feel bitter?

I hear ya!! Tha's why I posted the OP!! I especially find myself struggling with jealousy about how I look becasue man- sleep dep is aging me fast!!!! However- last night my almost 3 yr old woke scared and all my dh had to do was pick him up, give him a hug and say, "ok buddy?" and he was back to sleep. I have to believe it is because we perservered with him! it is worth it!!


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## Deir (Aug 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama*
Come on, we're only human.

When you've been up every hour, nursing till your nips feel like they're going to fall off, when you can barely drag yourself through the day because you're so sleep-deprived, when you're wracked with guilt because your older kid is bearing the brunt of your lack of energy to engage with him, when with all of this, your friend who did what you believe to be _absolutely wrong_ (CIO), is bright-eyed, energetic, and loving her nights of sleep, with a delightful child who sleeps from 7pm-7am because she let him cry for a couple of weeks a year ago, while you're still struggling for two hours in a row...how can one not feel bitter?

I hear ya!! Tha's why I posted the OP!! I especially find myself struggling with jealousy about how I look becasue man- sleep dep is aging me fast!!!! However- last night my almost 3 yr old woke scared and all my dh had to do was pick him up, give him a hug and say, "ok buddy?" and he was back to sleep. I have to believe it is because we perservered with him! it is worth it!!


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## Dolphin (Apr 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama*
Come on, we're only human.

When you've been up every hour, nursing till your nips feel like they're going to fall off, when you can barely drag yourself through the day because you're so sleep-deprived, when you're wracked with guilt because your older kid is bearing the brunt of your lack of energy to engage with him, when with all of this, your friend who did what you believe to be _absolutely wrong_ (CIO), is bright-eyed, energetic, and loving her nights of sleep, with a delightful child who sleeps from 7pm-7am because she let him cry for a couple of weeks a year ago, while you're still struggling for two hours in a row...how can one not feel bitter?

If I thought my CIO counterparts' children were perfectly happy and content and well-attached and sleeping 12 hours straight and mine wasn't, I might have some feelings of jealousy and frustration. But bitterness is such a toxic emotion. Human, yes, but still quite toxic. And I still just flat out don't believe that these "other" kids are all peachy and sleeping 12 hours with no negative consequences. I just don't believe it. So when I hear of other moms doing CIO, I'm more angry at them for doing that to a child. I suppose that's easier for me to say now that my ds is older and a good sleeper, something I thought I would never see. Even though I don't do things for a specific result, it sure is nice to see that it actually IS worth all the effort.


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## LeAnnie (Mar 3, 2004)

I spend a a lot of time with little ones and families who CIO at my church. Incidentally, these folks also are more likely to use coersion, threats, rewards, and overall different approaches to parenting than AP. But, what I have noticed about the CIO little ones is a general lack of regard or interest in adults (manifested in lack of eye contact or social initiation). I guess that is the 'zombie' look previously mentioned.

The little ones do also seem impulsive to me. I imagine they have a lot of pent up energy after being cribbed for 12 hours at night.

On the topic of feeling jealous of the well-rested CIO mamas, one thing that I know is true (from my friends and years of working in the pediatric health field)...THEY LIE ABOUT THEIR KIDS SLEEPING THROUGH THE NIGHT! Yes, this is true. The kids probably do sleep through many nights, but there are a lot of ups and downs that these parents don't admit to. To admit would burst the whole bubble of control....


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## RootBeerFloat (Nov 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LeAnnie*
On the topic of feeling jealous of the well-rested CIO mamas, one thing that I know is true (from my friends and years of working in the pediatric health field)...THEY LIE ABOUT THEIR KIDS SLEEPING THROUGH THE NIGHT! Yes, this is true. The kids probably do sleep through many nights, but there are a lot of ups and downs that these parents don't admit to. To admit would burst the whole bubble of control....

ITA!!! My SIL CIOed their twins from about 3 months on. They slept "perfect" 12 hour nights for their entire first year, and then started having serious nightwakings that have persisted for at least that long. I think now she's as sleep deprived as I am.

I think the issue of sleep deprivation while co-sleeping is really touchy. There seems to be an assumption that if you're not well rested, something is wrong. I'll tell you, I am REALLY not well rested and feel exhauted and resentful alot of the time. AND I don't think that means that there's anything wrong. Babies don't sleep through the night. They just don't. Being an attentive parent means dealing with that, finding a way to make it through despite how difficult it is.

I think that alot of co-sleeping advocates are afraid to talk about this, because it makes CIO seem so much better. This frustrates me, because I think it only gives one side of the picture. I would love some "expert" validation that sleep deprivation may be part of it, somehow it would make my experience so much easier to swallow. I understand that CIO may be easier, but I think we all agree that the easy road isn't going to get us where we want with our kids. I didn't become a parent because I wanted easy, I became a parent because I wanted children.


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