# Still being pushed by NICU!



## tropicaldutchtulip (Jul 26, 2007)

Our son was born at 31 weeks Sunday and they are still pushing for him to get circumcised! UGHHH!!!!! It's just driving me a little crazy since we have so many other more important issues going on!


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

If it's the same people over and over, just put your foot down and tell them it's not going to happen under any circumstances and if they continue to HARASS you, you will be going higher up. Threaten to call in the floor nurse, the social worker, the head of patient relations.

If it's just that every new nurse on each new shift feels the need to ask







then you can probably be a bit nicer. But I wouldn't be subtle about it. Tape a sign at his head that says, "I will be going home with my WHOLE penis, so please stop soliciting cosmetic surgery...Thanks!"


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## MommytoB (Jan 18, 2006)

Nicu is pushing you to circumcision your son ? Why are they doing that especially for a preemie ?

If any medical professional was pushing me to circ my son I would say if you have balls to do that again I will have enough balls to push a Major Complaint of the NICU with all of whom it concerns to Your Boss and Joint Commission .


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## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

wtf? I would be outraged. I agree with PP about writing it out or maybe writing the message "NO CIRC NO CIRC NO CIRC" on his onesie. Seriously, why on earth would they be pushing a traumatic, unnecessary surgery on a preemie!!!? I would not blame you if you totally snapped on them if they continue to push it. That is bs, I'm so sorry that you have this additional stress on top of having a brand new and early little one.


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## SleeplessMommy (Jul 16, 2005)

Congrats on the new baby! I am guessing you are somewhere on the East Coast - home of circ happy hospitals.

If your son is going to be there for a while, you might want to contact these nice people and see if they have any suggestions. http://www.intactamerica.org/ A few lawyer letters can go a long way.


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## Minarai (Jul 26, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommytoB* 
Nicu is pushing you to circumcision your son ? Why are they doing that especially for a preemie ?

Hint: it's green and it fits in wallets.


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## tropicaldutchtulip (Jul 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SleeplessMommy* 
Congrats on the new baby! I am guessing you are somewhere on the East Coast - home of circ happy hospitals.

If your son is going to be there for a while, you might want to contact these nice people and see if they have any suggestions. http://www.intactamerica.org/ A few lawyer letters can go a long way.









Nope Colorado Springs and it's the DR as he makes rounds! I finally told him for religious reasons and then he left it at that!


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## tropicaldutchtulip (Jul 26, 2007)

I hate this whole "it's cleaner", "a women doesn't want to sleep with it", thing from people! I'm happy to have him intact and proud of his tiny cute little penis!!! I didn't know how I would feel about it once I actually saw it since I have girls! But I knew I wouldn't be circ'ing him.

Thanks, I knew you all would understand!


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

I totally agree with the previous posters. You need to be firm. "I have told you quite a few times, the answer is NO. NO NO NO NO NO!!!!! Do not ask me again. If your going to continue to harass me, I will go to the higher ups".


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

I would agree, you should complain. His behavior is not appropriate. Furthermore, I believe you should now respond with something along the lines of, "I already told you we are not *mutilating* our son."


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

He is soliciting for cosmetic surgery and that should be against hospital policy. I would tell him one more time if it comes up and add that you will now be filing a complaint with the dept. heads about it. Ridiculous that he didnt take no for an answer the first time.

It isnt possible that he will be circed while you are not there is it? Things like that do happen so you need to make sure that you have something in his isolate saying you have not consented to circ and should it happen you will sue. I would be very worried that this Dr. would do it since he is not listening to you.


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## MommytoB (Jan 18, 2006)

yep I would definetly mention something like that because wasn't their someone who said No to circ but the kid was circ'ed anyways . I think it was located in canada ?


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## Minarai (Jul 26, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommytoB* 
yep I would definetly mention something like that because wasn't their someone who said No to circ but the kid was circ'ed anyways . I think it was located in canada ?

There are a TON of cases like that; the one I remember most vividly happened in the Dallas area. Unfortunately, the doctor got off scot-free, or so I remember from the article







. We had a similar discussion about circ without consent a while back and a whole bunch of these cases were mentioned.


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## mntnmom (Sep 21, 2006)

Which hospital in the Springs? Is it Evans? If the doc is military you can definately go higher up. And if he's a contract civilian working for the Army, you can get him fired.
If it's not a mil. hosp. you can talk to public relations, or their customer service rep. Don't know how far it would go... but he needs to know that discussing the future sexual options of a newborn is NOT appropriate!!


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## Minarai (Jul 26, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mntnmom* 
Which hospital in the Springs? Is it Evans? If the doc is military you can definately go higher up. And if he's a contract civilian working for the Army, you can get him fired.
If it's not a mil. hosp. you can talk to public relations, or their customer service rep. Don't know how far it would go... but he needs to know that discussing the future sexual options of a newborn is NOT appropriate!!

Just out of curiosity and slightly







, but don't military hospitals REQUIRE circ? I know for a fact that all male recruits are circ'd upon entry if they weren't circ'd already, so it stands to reason that their hospitals would require all male patients to be circ'd as well, regardless of age or health problem.


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minarai* 
Just out of curiosity and slightly







, but don't military hospitals REQUIRE circ? I know for a fact that all male recruits are circ'd upon entry if they weren't circ'd already, so it stands to reason that their hospitals would require all male patients to be circ'd as well, regardless of age or health problem.

I have never heard that, where did you hear it? In fact the Attorney who posts here as 'Dave2GA' was in the Navy and he isn't circumcised.


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## imagine21 (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *minarai* 
i know for a fact that all male recruits are circ'd upon entry if they weren't circ'd already...

what?????


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minarai* 
Just out of curiosity and slightly








, but don't military hospitals REQUIRE circ? I know for a fact that all male recruits are circ'd upon entry if they weren't circ'd already, so it stands to reason that their hospitals would require all male patients to be circ'd as well, regardless of age or health problem.

Nope...My Bff's son just joined up and is happily intact...not a word was mentioned about his status.


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## Minarai (Jul 26, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fellow Traveler* 
I have never heard that, where did you hear it? In fact the Attorney who posts here as 'Dave2GA' was in the Navy and he isn't circumcised.

From what I've read, it was first required during World War II because some men had trouble keeping themselves clean out in the North African desert. Then in Vietnam, they required it to prevent "jungle rot." The exact same idea as was used in WWII was applied during the Persian Gulf War. I don't have any more data than this, but I'm sure I can dig it up easily.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minarai* 
From what I've read, it was first required during World War II because some men had trouble keeping themselves clean out in the North African desert. Then in Vietnam, they required it to prevent "jungle rot." The exact same idea as was used in WWII was applied during the Persian Gulf War. I don't have any more data than this, but I'm sure I can dig it up easily.


My DH's Father served in WWII and korea and was intact - I also dated a vietnam vet who was intact. It might have been recommended...but was not mandatory.


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## Sk8ermaiden (Feb 13, 2008)

My FIL was in the military and is still intact.


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## Mama2Jesse (Jan 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minarai* 
From what I've read, it was first required during World War II because some men had trouble keeping themselves clean out in the North African desert. Then in Vietnam, they required it to prevent "jungle rot." The exact same idea as was used in WWII was applied during the Persian Gulf War. I don't have any more data than this, but I'm sure I can dig it up easily.

Myth. Common one, but a myth indeed.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minarai*
From what I've read, it was first required during World War II because some men had trouble keeping themselves clean out in the North African desert. Then in Vietnam, they required it to prevent "jungle rot." The exact same idea as was used in WWII was applied during the Persian Gulf War. I don't have any more data than this, but I'm sure I can dig it up easily.

Def. not true. My dad was a fighter pilot, had been in military several years before he went to Viet Nam, was intact and decided to get circed in Viet Nam but it was for social conformity/sex reasons and it was voluntary, not mandatory.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

It was common back then for them to circ because of silly reasons ie keeping it clean in war but that is no longer the case. Dh's uncle was in Vietnam and came home happily intact. Even though they still encourage it to prevent disease in enlisted men it is by no means required.


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## MommytoB (Jan 18, 2006)

My gpa who passed away around easter time was circ'ed in the miltary because they just told him it was better & it would be easier so he went through that wrong unneeded surgery but did say it majorly hurt but he didn't have any problems with his foreskin before the circ either no wonder he didn't want to go through NEEDED surgery that was risky but it would Have helped him for a better life but he said No to a brain stunt in his head for senior age hydrocephalus & he started to deteriotate . He spent 3 1/2 yrs as a depressed vegatable . He would eat but he couldn't or wouldn't move .


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## Oubliette8 (Apr 15, 2009)

I have a friend who is a nurse in a Navy hospital. Her son was born in a Navy Hospital and is intact. His father (who is not military) is also intact. She said they asked a few times if they wanted it done, but it wasn't mandatory by any stretch. From speaking with her, it seems that a fair number of boys leave the hospital intact (she was working in labor and delivery for awhile) She's on the west coast, which might make a difference.


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## Shenjall (Sep 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommytoB* 
yep I would definetly mention something like that because wasn't their someone who said No to circ but the kid was circ'ed anyways . I think it was located in canada ?

This happened in my city, just a couple years ago. And funny enough (funny in that make you want to puke way) the dr was our ds' _former_ ped. The same ped who was also pushing circ when our ds was a 29 completed week preemie.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MCatLvrMom2A&X* 
He is soliciting for cosmetic surgery and that should be against hospital policy. I would tell him one more time if it comes up and add that you will now be filing a complaint with the dept. heads about it. Ridiculous that he didnt take no for an answer the first time.

It isnt possible that he will be circed while you are not there is it? Things like that do happen so you need to make sure that you have something in his isolate saying you have not consented to circ and should it happen you will sue. I would be very worried that this Dr. would do it since he is not listening to you.


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## Jenivere (Aug 4, 2003)

I also have a military father and brother both of whom are intact.

As for that Dr. you definitely need to complain about him!


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## tropicaldutchtulip (Jul 26, 2007)

This is not military. Memorial Central


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## BlessedMommy2006 (Dec 7, 2007)

Wow. That is just unbelievable and very distasteful. A 31 week preemie that is around 3 pounds in weight and they're pushing for circ?? They couldn't even do a circ for awhile, that is weird that they would start pushing you right after he was born. And you are so right that there are so many other much more important things to be think about! Maybe if anyone asks you again, you could say, "Um no, I have more important things to worry about, like keeping him alive for starters."

Be sure to tell everyone you run into that he is not to be circ'ed, to put a sign near him, and to complain to the Dr's boss if applicable.

Best wishes to you and your DS for quick weight gain and being able to leave the NICU quickly!


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## BaMo (Mar 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minarai* 
Just out of curiosity and slightly







, but don't military hospitals REQUIRE circ? I know for a fact that all male recruits are circ'd upon entry if they weren't circ'd already, so it stands to reason that their hospitals would require all male patients to be circ'd as well, regardless of age or health problem.

Big fat NO! DS was born in a military hospital, is intact and we were never pressured to circ - it was never an issue.

Also, DH is in the military - circ is NOT required - and the status of his penis has never been an issue.


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## Night_Nurse (Nov 23, 2007)

You can fire your son's doctor. Ask for a reassignment. The hospital will get another pediatrician for him (they legally can't have him as in inpatient without a doctor and changing MD's during a stay is a breeze). When they ask why you want a new physician just tell them yours keeps bugging you to have elective surgery on your premie even though you've declined it numerous times. Personally, I'd even report it to the hospital's ethics board/department. What he's doing is going far beyond asking one time "do you desire a circ before discharge"? One "no" should be more than sufficient and asking numerous times is harassment (IMO).

Congratulations on your new son! I hope he's home soon!


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## BugMacGee (Aug 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minarai* 
There are a TON of cases like that; the one I remember most vividly happened in the Dallas area. Unfortunately, the doctor got off scot-free, or so I remember from the article







. We had a similar discussion about circ without consent a while back and a whole bunch of these cases were mentioned.

I don't actually think there are a "TON" of cases like this. Nor did we come up with a whole bunch of cases in that previous discussion. It makes the news because it doesn't happen very often. IIRC, the Dallas MD had to pay the family a bunch of money.

To the OP, if the MD keeps bugging you, use the chain of command and talk to the medical director of the unit. Make crib signs. Get the nurses on your side. They can't touch him without your consent. Just make sure you READ any consent you sign carefully!

Nightnurse-it's harder to change Neonatologists. There are usually one or two on service and they cover all (or half, whatever) the babies in the NICU. They are on service for a week or so, then go off and someone else comes on. Other doctors do night calls etc. It's not like the babies have individual doctors. The OP's annoying Neo is probably the attending on for this period of time. Hopefully, someone esle will come on service soon!


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## Night_Nurse (Nov 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BugMacGee* 

Nightnurse-it's harder to change Neonatologists. There are usually one or two on service and they cover all (or half, whatever) the babies in the NICU. They are on service for a week or so, then go off and someone else comes on. Other doctors do night calls etc. It's not like the babies have individual doctors. The OP's annoying Neo is probably the attending on for this period of time. Hopefully, someone esle will come on service soon!

Oh bummer! I didn't know that (I think we have several individual one's at our hosp., but I'm not entirely sure). Well that's really sad, especially since I'm sure that MD is bugging all the other parents about it too. You'd think (and hope) that once a parent says no that would be the end of the discussion.

Maybe the OP could write a note for her son's chart and have it notarized stating "Dr. So & So" keeps forgetting we do NOT desire a circumcision for our son and we do not wish to be asked again" and maybe that will get the message across!


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

I would go as far as to question his competence...if he is unable to read no circumcision on a chart and can not remember that you said no...what is is he not noticing on charts or forgetting? We are dealing with very fragile babies here...forgetting or not being able to read a chart is a HUGE problem!

PS. I was able to fire the neo that cathed my DD without consent...I also sued him.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

I think I'd ask the nurse to write "NO CIRC" on his belly so that you don't have an "accidental" circ. Put notes all over his bassinet "NO CIRCUMCISION!!" so that there's no doubt and no need to question.

Oh, and for the record,my brother wasn't asked to get circ'd when he went to Iraq a few years ago.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Back in the day when circ was required in the military....it was only the black men that were REQUIRED to be circed, the white men could decline.


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Please mama, print this circumcision refusal form. Fill it out. Have THEM sign it and if you can, get a lawyer's signature on there too. Ask for a copy with their signatures on it for your records. Have them keep a copy in his charts.

There's an option to create no/circ stickers to be placed in his isolate and on his diapers.


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## SlackerDad (Jun 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fruitful womb* 
Please mama, print this circumcision refusal form. Fill it out. Have THEM sign it and if you can, get a lawyer's signature on there too. Ask for a copy with their signatures on it for your records. Have them keep a copy in his charts.

There's an option to create no/circ stickers to be placed in his isolate and on his diapers.

I have two somewhat contradictory responses to this post:

(1) Great idea! She should do whatever is necessary to protect her son and it sounds like this will cover her bases pretty well.

(2) What kind of warped society are we living in, that we have to go to these extreme lengths to protect an incredibly vulnerable, premature infant from his own doctors and nurses?!? Good grief. This is the stuff that must really sound insane to people from other countries.


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## mntnmom (Sep 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minarai* 
Just out of curiosity and slightly







, but don't military hospitals REQUIRE circ? I know for a fact that all male recruits are circ'd upon entry if they weren't circ'd already, so it stands to reason that their hospitals would require all male patients to be circ'd as well, regardless of age or health problem.

That was a LONG time ago. Now, with the large hispanic/immigrant populations in the US military, circ' is largely a non issue, except with the more conservative native born Americans that are also drown to the military. My intact FIL was in the Air Force during Korea. My DH, who always believed he was intact though it's actually an incomplete circ' has been in the Army for over 20 years(including a tour in Afghanistan and one in Iraq, and a stateside job during Persian gulf). My DS was born in an Army hospital and circ was offered once, and never mentioned again.

This is an issue with this individual doctor. Her babe needs to be protected, and this doctor needs to be educated!!


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mntnmom* 
That was a LONG time ago. Now, with the large hispanic/immigrant populations in the US military, circ' is largely a non issue, except with the more conservative native born Americans that are also drown to the military. My intact FIL was in the Air Force during Korea. My DH, who always believed he was intact though it's actually an incomplete circ' has been in the Army for over 20 years(including a tour in Afghanistan and one in Iraq, and a stateside job during Persian gulf). My DS was born in an Army hospital and circ was offered once, and never mentioned again.

This is an issue with this individual doctor. Her babe needs to be protected, and this doctor needs to be educated!!

Sorry to be nosey... but what is an incomplete circ? Which parts do they remove and what do they leave?


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BugMacGee*
Nightnurse-it's harder to change Neonatologists. There are usually one or two on service and they cover all (or half, whatever) the babies in the NICU. They are on service for a week or so, then go off and someone else comes on. Other doctors do night calls etc. It's not like the babies have individual doctors. The OP's annoying Neo is probably the attending on for this period of time. Hopefully, someone esle will come on service soon!

This was my experience with the [censored] neonatologist assigned to my dd. No circ issues but what this guy didn't know about breastfeeding could fill a book. Unfortunately since he was assigned to dd we had a hard time even though the other neonatologist was much better educated about nursing. The one assigned to us made a traumatic experience even more so because of his ignorance and arrogance and had no issue with trying to intimidate me.









To the OP: I would definitely complain to the hospital. I wouldn't let it go. But I would also focus on taking care of yourself and your ds, because I know that NICU stays are hard on mama and baby.









And if this doctor says something about circ to you again, look him straight in the eye and tell him "NO MEANS NO. You are soliciting cosmetic surgery and it is illegal and unethical." It is OK to stand up to the docs -- in this case, you know more than he does, and it is his ignorance, not yours, that's at the root of his inappropriate behavior.


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## moaningminny (Dec 31, 2007)

OP, I am also the mother of a 31-weeker, she's now 4 years old. I can't imagine being harrassed like that after everything both you and your son are already going through. It's truly unbelievable, I just want to go to his neonatologists and give them a good shake.

Seriously though? My 31 weeker was poked countless times for IV's, was cath'd, had 2 LPs, nasogastric tubes for gavage feeding, kept in an isolette for almost two weeks until she could be in room air and regulate her body temperature and also was on caffeine for her apneas and bradycardias. I'm not saying your son is going through the exact same things, but they can't be too far off - and again, after all of this they want to push him for painful, unneccessary cosmetic surgery?

That is beyond sad.


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## SlackerDad (Jun 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moaningminny* 
OP, I am also the mother of a 31-weeker, she's now 4 years old. I can't imagine being harrassed like that after everything both you and your son are already going through. It's truly unbelievable, I just want to go to his neonatologists and give them a good shake.

Seriously though? My 31 weeker was poked countless times for IV's, was cath'd, had 2 LPs, nasogastric tubes for gavage feeding, kept in an isolette for almost two weeks until she could be in room air and regulate her body temperature and also was on caffeine for her apneas and bradycardias. I'm not saying your son is going through the exact same things, but they can't be too far off - and again, after all of this they want to push him for painful, unneccessary cosmetic surgery?

That is beyond sad.









Well said. On top of all that, throw in the complication that this is not just some bothersome hospital official, but the doctor she is counting on to save her son's life, and the ethical issues (and complicated/conflicted feelings for the OP) loom even larger. Ugh!


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## mntnmom (Sep 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
Sorry to be nosey... but what is an incomplete circ? Which parts do they remove and what do they leave?

Sorry to derail, but my understanding is they just take off the tip. Basically they remove the sphincter that holds the foreskin closed, but the frenulum and the majority of the "overhang" remains. DH has been around intact guys, and never realized he'd been cut.


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## hollytheteacher (Mar 10, 2007)

When my ds was in the NICU they asked every day (he was there for five days and full-term) if we wanted a circ done...the same doctor, the same group of people on "rounds". I kept saying "no!" very sternly and glanced at him like "wow you are a sicko"

I actually wish now that I had said more and more snarkily, but dammit it is *so hard* when you just gave birth (and my experience was not a good one...37 hour labor, exhausted and got an epi, pushing for four hours, etc.) and then I find out my baby was born with a life threatening heart defect and here he is asking me a question about mutilating my poor son's penis!

It makes me sick to think about it and I literally have to block out the first week of my son's life because of all the horrible emotions I felt while being in that NICU (and NO we didn't circ!!). I also had nurses roll their eyes in my plain view when I asked to breastfeed and one nurse told me "breastfeeding will tie you down honey!" ughgug







k blood boiling now, gotta stop...and for the record we are still happily nursing at 27 months


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## tropicaldutchtulip (Jul 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moaningminny* 
OP, I am also the mother of a 31-weeker, she's now 4 years old. I can't imagine being harrassed like that after everything both you and your son are already going through. It's truly unbelievable, I just want to go to his neonatologists and give them a good shake.

Seriously though? My 31 weeker was poked countless times for IV's, was cath'd, had 2 LPs, nasogastric tubes for gavage feeding, kept in an isolette for almost two weeks until she could be in room air and regulate her body temperature and also was on caffeine for her apneas and bradycardias. I'm not saying your son is going through the exact same things, but they can't be too far off - and again, after all of this they want to push him for painful, unneccessary cosmetic surgery?

That is beyond sad.










Yep plus add drug, alcohol and smoke withdrawals too! (This is an adoption!) My girls went through the same stuff minus the circ debate being born at 30 weeks so I totally understand. The lactation department was much better with the hospital with the girls than here with him. And actually the DR's were a lot nicer too with the girls come to think of it!


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mntnmom* 
Sorry to derail, but my understanding is they just take off the tip. Basically they remove the sphincter that holds the foreskin closed, but the frenulum and the majority of the "overhang" remains. DH has been around intact guys, and never realized he'd been cut.

Sorry for going off topic, OP.

Thanks for the info, I didn't know that even existed.


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## momo7 (Apr 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minarai* 
Just out of curiosity and slightly







, but don't military hospitals REQUIRE circ? I know for a fact that all male recruits are circ'd upon entry if they weren't circ'd already, so it stands to reason that their hospitals would require all male patients to be circ'd as well, regardless of age or health problem.


Ummm...hmmmm....I don't think that is true....only because my husband was in the military and he is very much intact..... My son is in the military and he is intact as well. Are you talking about a different country's military? Because this IS NOT the case for the US Military at all.

I had my son in a military hospital and they had to get my permmission to do it. They never once told me it was "required" (I was pressured by my family to do it but NEVER once the hospital.)

I can't imagine that they could force a parent to circ.

How do you "know this for a fact"?


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## momo7 (Apr 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minarai* 
Just out of curiosity and slightly







, but don't military hospitals REQUIRE circ? I know for a fact that all male recruits are circ'd upon entry if they weren't circ'd already, so it stands to reason that their hospitals would require all male patients to be circ'd as well, regardless of age or health problem.


Ummm...hmmmm....I don't think that is true....only because my husband was in the military and he is very much intact..... My son is in the military and he is intact as well. Are you talking about a different country's military? Because this IS NOT the case for the US Military at all.

I had my son in a military hospital and they had to get my permmission to do it. They never once told me it was "required" (I was pressured by my family to do it but NEVER once the hospital.)

I can't imagine that they could force a parent to circ.

How do you "know this for a fact"?


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## Minarai (Jul 26, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momo7* 
Ummm...hmmmm....I don't think that is true....only because my husband was in the military and he is very much intact..... My son is in the military and he is intact as well. Are you talking about a different country's military? Because this IS NOT the case for the US Military at all.

I had my son in a military hospital and they had to get my permmission to do it. They never once told me it was "required" (I was pressured by my family to do it but NEVER once the hospital.)

I can't imagine that they could force a parent to circ.

How do you "know this for a fact"?

I thought I did; apparently I had been listening to the wrong people.
But I DO know that some hospitals require it, as per this article.


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## momo7 (Apr 10, 2005)

That is a VERY interesting article. Thank you for sharing it.

The article doesn't say that the children at St. John's are required to get circ'd...it only says *"In the Midwest, "we whack 'em all," says Dr. Renee Stein, whose clinic at St. John's Mercy Medical Center in St. Louis offers payment plans for families on Medicaid."*

They aren't MAKING anyone get their child circ'd. The article also says this: *"Elsewhere, though, more parents are opting to pass. "You have families that had a child six years ago who was circumcised, and then had a child three years ago who was not, because they couldn't afford it," says Dr. Anthony Atala, director of urology at Wake Forest University's medical center.*

The most important thing about this article is this: *Following a 1999 report from the American Academy of Pediatrics, which said that the health benefits of circumcision were not significant enough to make the procedure mandatory, Medicaid programs began dropping coverage.*

I am really glad that it is not being covered anymore......but for religious parents who do it where does that leave them? If the procedure is faith based how will the underprivileged pay for it in a hospital where they aren't offered financial assistance for it?


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momo7* 

I am really glad that it is not being covered anymore......but for religious parents who do it where does that leave them? If the procedure is faith based how will the underprivileged pay for it in a hospital where they aren't offered financial assistance for it?

Religious circumcisions are never done in the hospital by a doctor. They were never covered by insurance. It was always out of pocket.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)




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## tropicaldutchtulip (Jul 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fyrestorm* 
Religious circumcisions are never done in the hospital by a doctor. They were never covered by insurance. It was always out of pocket.

That's why I finally told them it was for religious reasons!


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## SlackerDad (Jun 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momo7* 
I am really glad that it is not being covered anymore......but for religious parents who do it where does that leave them? If the procedure is faith based how will the underprivileged pay for it in a hospital where they aren't offered financial assistance for it?

Hopefully they won't! Surely you're not suggesting we should lose sleep over the possibility that "underpriviliged" families will face financial barriers that may make it more likely that they leave their sons intact?!?


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## beckyand3littlemonsters (Sep 16, 2006)

sorry your going through this, it's so good your ds has you fighting his corner.
i still understand this "need" for circ anyway







:

Quote:

Good grief. This is the stuff that must really sound insane to people from other countries.
you deffinately hit the nail on the head there, before joining mdc i thought only people of the muslim or jewish faith circ'd


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## Claire and Boys (Mar 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minarai* 
I thought I did; apparently I had been listening to the wrong people.
But I DO know that some hospitals require it, as per this article.

Where does it say they require it?

I doubt very much that circumcision is "required" as in the parents cannot decline it anywhere.


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## BlessedMommy2006 (Dec 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hollytheteacher* 
When my ds was in the NICU they asked every day (he was there for five days and full-term) if we wanted a circ done...the same doctor, the same group of people on "rounds". I kept saying "no!" very sternly and glanced at him like "wow you are a sicko"

I actually wish now that I had said more and more snarkily, but dammit it is *so hard* when you just gave birth (and my experience was not a good one...37 hour labor, exhausted and got an epi, pushing for four hours, etc.) and then I find out my baby was born with a life threatening heart defect and here he is asking me a question about mutilating my poor son's penis!

It makes me sick to think about it and I literally have to block out the first week of my son's life because of all the horrible emotions I felt while being in that NICU (and NO we didn't circ!!). I also had nurses roll their eyes in my plain view when I asked to breastfeed and one nurse told me "breastfeeding will tie you down honey!" ughgug







k blood boiling now, gotta stop...and for the record we are still happily nursing at 27 months









Wow, that is really sad. The baby could DIE during the circ because of his heart defect. Why would they repeatedly solicit you for that? I thought that only "healthy and stable newborns" were eligible for circ.

It always upsets me when I hear of people being solicited for circ, and doubly so when it is NICU parents.


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SlackerDad* 
Hopefully they won't! Surely you're not suggesting we should lose sleep over the possibility that "underpriviliged" families will face financial barriers that may make it more likely that they leave their sons intact?!?

this article says that they offer payment plans: http://www.newsweek.com/id/192472?digg=1














it's the same article mentioned already.

sus


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## hippiemommaof4 (Mar 31, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minarai* 
Just out of curiosity and slightly







, but don't military hospitals REQUIRE circ? I know for a fact that all male recruits are circ'd upon entry if they weren't circ'd already, so it stands to reason that their hospitals would require all male patients to be circ'd as well, regardless of age or health problem.

no they dont require, thats not true about the recruits either...not at all.


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## nia82 (May 6, 2008)

OP: Be adamant. Complain to the higher ups. I would be furious and make a stink.

DH is military and was circed at birth, and it never was brought up, but on his medical papers they wrote genital abnormality: circumsized. I love how they put that it is an ABNORMALITY!

DS was born under Tricare in a civ hospital where they were super relieved we wouldn't circ. The nurses there did not like it at all, but that was central coast CA - very low circ rates. The military peds however are pretty uneducated with intact penises - I continuously have to push their hands off DS's foreskin.


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## tropicaldutchtulip (Jul 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nia82* 
I continuously have to push their hands off DS's foreskin.

My mom has no clue either! She said that I need to pull it back every time I change his diaper! My dad was not circ but the dr told my grandmother to pull it back every time! So that is what she thinks I need to do! Also she said it will look like an "anteater" if I don't and be all nasty and have all that "skin" hanging out over the end of it and look like an old shriveled up old man!







She totally has no clue!!!!!!!!!!


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## 2lilsweetfoxes (Apr 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SlackerDad* 
Hopefully they won't! Surely you're not suggesting we should lose sleep over the possibility that "underpriviliged" families will face financial barriers that may make it more likely that they leave their sons intact?!?

at least for a few years, until the boy presents with (truly normal, but the doc will insist that it is indicative of a problem) issue, such as ballooning or not being retractable (yet) or perhaps constant infections due to retraction and aggressive cleaning, because no one tells mama and daddy how to care for their son







, except the old myths--then they get it done and covered







. Besides, if something is _that_ important to someone, they'll find a way to swing it financially.


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## NettleTea (Aug 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tropicaldutchtulip* 
Also she said it will look like an "anteater" if I don't and be all nasty and have all that "skin" hanging out over the end of it and look like an old shriveled up old man!

Wow


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## tropicaldutchtulip (Jul 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NettleTea* 
Wow









I know!


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## japonica (May 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tropicaldutchtulip* 
My mom has no clue either! She said that I need to pull it back every time I change his diaper! My dad was not circ but the dr told my grandmother to pull it back every time! So that is what she thinks I need to do! Also she said it will look like an "anteater" if I don't and be all nasty and have all that "skin" hanging out over the end of it and look like an old shriveled up old man!







She totally has no clue!!!!!!!!!!









Anteater...














that's hilarious...how did you keep a straight face?

The retract and clean thing was big even into the 70s. I recall doing baby sitting courses and reading childcare books back then and it said to retract and clean at bath time and diaper changes...ugh. Luckily for me, I never babysat any boys (my babysitting career was pretty uneventful, just the neighbor's daughters)...but if that was the info passed around to parents, grandparents, babysitters back then, well, no wonder some boys ended up with problems down the road.


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## Minarai (Jul 26, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *japonica* 
Anteater...














that's hilarious...how did you keep a straight face?

I can. "Anteater" is a derogatory term used by the brainwashed American public to belittle intact males. I've seen it used REPEATEDLY on other fora (often at the same time I was being mocked for my intactivism







).


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## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tropicaldutchtulip* 
Nope Colorado Springs and it's the DR as he makes rounds! I finally told him for religious reasons and then he left it at that!

I have noticed the propensity of Colorado doctors/hospitals to act like it's not an optional procedure. Circumcision is presented as just a normal part of having a new baby boy here, and "opting out" (in my experience) is not mentioned. They just say, when would you like to schedule, or even, we do the circumcision when he's ___ days old. I am so thankful I had a girl, because NO ONE EVER TOLD ME that circ was elective and unnecessary, so I never would have had an occasion to question it. This is my personal observation from the western slope, more "progressive" areas (like Boulder) may not be the same. Even more kudos from me to the OP for standing so firm and being informed against the "norm" here.

My sis' preemie boy was just recently circed here in my hometown. . . and his mom, who is a nurse, didn't blink twice about the fact that he's a preemie, poor guy (this is the woman who scheduled an elective c-sec two weeks early for his birth, so why would a few more weeks matter anyways?). Little fella's still jaundicy at three weeks post-birth. Srry to get OT, OP


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nia82* 
DH is military and was circed at birth, and it never was brought up, but on his medical papers they wrote genital abnormality: circumsized. I love how they put that it is an ABNORMALITY!

Whether or not a man is circumcized is an identifying body mark in times of war, so that's why they note it. I'm a former Navy Corpsman. I assisted with the in-processing of a bazillion recruits when I was stationed at Parris Island.

My boys were both born in Navy hospitals, and they are both intact. I don't even recall if I was _asked_ about circ, to be honest. I don't think there's any money in it for military facilities; military doctors get paid the same whether they deliver one baby or a dozen, whether it's a vaginal birth or c-section, and whether they circ or not. And circumcision is a procedure that would merely _cost_ the facility money, which they are happy to avoid.


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## Dave2GA (Jul 31, 2005)

It has never been the policy of the military to require circ. I do understand that some stations pushed it during WWII. But I am intact and served 4 years as a Naval officer in the 70's. I was asked once if I was or was not circed, but that was because they putting down identifying scars in the medical record.

As to circing without consent, that is common, unfortunately. I have handled 20+ such cases throughout the country. It is an outrage, but it continues to happen.


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## SlackerDad (Jun 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Claire and Boys* 
Where does it say they require it?

I doubt very much that circumcision is "required" as in the parents cannot decline it anywhere.

You're almost certainly correct, but maybe a better way to put it is that it is "standard practice" at this hospital. I am in the same state as that hospital, and I previously related a story (on another thread) about when my then-wife and I were touring the maternity ward. To recap briefly, a maternity nurse who seemed to have a fair number of years' experience showed us a room where "if you're having a boy, this is where he'll get circed" and when I made it clear we weren't doing that, her reaction made it clear that she had never, _ever_ even _heard_ of something as bizarre as someone leaving the hospital without getting their baby boy circed.







"Whack 'em all", indeed.

And I should add that as both the son and husband of sociologists, I can testify that while social norms like this may not be strictly speaking the same as "requirements", to the vast majority of people who (unlike Mothering readers) don't like to go against the grain, it _feels_ to them like a requirement, sadly.


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## SlackerDad (Jun 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tropicaldutchtulip* 
My mom has no clue either! She said that I need to pull it back every time I change his diaper! My dad was not circ but the dr told my grandmother to pull it back every time! So that is what she thinks I need to do! Also she said it will look like an "anteater" if I don't and be all nasty and have all that "skin" hanging out over the end of it and look like an old shriveled up old man!







She totally has no clue!!!!!!!!!!









Well, and of course what's upside down is that, sure, it can look a bit like an anteater--but that's what it's _supposed_ to look like! Still, even though I'm intact, I can understand that when someone sees nothing but altered penises their whole lives, that seems "normal" and the natural appearance looks "weird". No wonder, when you look at it that way, that parents and hospital personnel get so antsy to do circs at such an incredibly tender age, even to preemies: the foreskin looks to them like a weird growth, an unwelcome invader in their "normal" lives. The fewer diaper changes before they get it whacked off, the better! It's awful, but it's psychologically understandable, sadly.

It's getting similar, really, with pubic hair on women. I'm old enough that I still think it looks weird (unattractive, in fact) for a grown woman to be shaved down there; but the trend has become so pervasive that a whole generation thinks just the opposite. I find this a little sad, but at least it is (unlike circ) reversible and not something done to an important part of the actual living genital tissue.


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## japonica (May 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minarai* 
I can. "Anteater" is a derogatory term used by the brainwashed American public to belittle intact males. I've seen it used REPEATEDLY on other fora (often at the same time I was being mocked for my intactivism







).

Sorry if my remark seemed glib. I wasn't belittling anyone's experience with dealing with a pro-circ culture. I was more struck by relatives saying something so ridiculous to someone like that. If it were my family, I probably would have laughed right in their faces and told them that they were completely absurd and stupid. But then I was fortunate that I was raised in an intact household...neither my brother nor father were circed, so conversations like that were never on our radar.

Back to the OP and the comment that other cultures would find this strange...no kidding. I imagine people in Europe reading this find it abhorrent that doctors are so fixated on this little guy's genitals when, as mentioned, there are more important issues to worry about.


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## K703 (Dec 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SlackerDad* 
It's getting similar, really, with pubic hair on women. I'm old enough that I still think it looks weird (unattractive, in fact) for a grown woman to be shaved down there; but the trend has become so pervasive that a whole generation thinks just the opposite. I find this a little sad, but at least it is (unlike circ) reversible and not something done to an important part of the actual living genital tissue.

And unlike circumcision, the decision to shave one's pubic hairs is made by the person herself.


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## Kismet_fw (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minarai* 
Just out of curiosity and slightly







, but don't military hospitals REQUIRE circ? I know for a fact that all male recruits are circ'd upon entry if they weren't circ'd already, so it stands to reason that their hospitals would require all male patients to be circ'd as well, regardless of age or health problem.

My dad is intact, and he spent over 22 years in. My brother was born in a military hospital, and he's intact too.


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## SlackerDad (Jun 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *K703* 
And unlike circumcision, the decision to shave one's pubic hairs is made by the person herself.

True, although with all of these things we can't discount the power of social/peer pressure.


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## DanelleB (Jan 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momo7* 
The article doesn't say that the children at St. John's are required to get circ'd...it only says *"In the Midwest, "we whack 'em all," says Dr. Renee Stein, whose clinic at St. John's Mercy Medical Center in St. Louis offers payment plans for families on Medicaid."*

Ugh! I was on hospital bedrest at St. Johns. Thank goodness I stabilized and didn't have to deliver there. What's sad is that they have the one of the best neonatal nurseries in the area. All those poor preemie boys!


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

This hospital sounds like a great place to get DOC or ARCLAW involved...anyone know how to go about doing that?


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## lovebug (Nov 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tropicaldutchtulip* 
Nope Colorado Springs and it's the DR as he makes rounds! I finally told him for religious reasons and then he left it at that!

Colorado Springs? thats where i am


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## phrogger (Oct 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minarai* 
I can. "Anteater" is a derogatory term used by the brainwashed American public to belittle intact males. I've seen it used REPEATEDLY on other fora (often at the same time I was being mocked for my intactivism







).

Ok, I guess I am not understanding why that is considered derogatory. Even my own sons have pointed out that a flacid intact penis looks like an anteater or an elephant trunk. They think it is hilarious. My oldest boy 13, is proud of being intact and feels very badly for his circ. step brother. So I have no doubt that him thinking his penis resembles something has done anything to belittle him or make him feel like less of a male. He is just happy his mom didn't chop off his penis.

OP, I really hope they stop hounding you, but I would talk to someone in charge. Just because you have been strong enough to say NO doesn't mean someone else will be that strong. So if you have the ability to complain, please do. Help protect other boys as well as your own.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phrogger* 
Ok, I guess I am not understanding why that is considered derogatory.

It's the tone and the intent behind what they are saying. My son was 18 months old when he got real excited one day when his diaper was off and kept signing "elephant" over and over. That's NOT offensive or derogatory.

When someone says, "But ewww, it'll look like an anteater!" That IS offensive and derogatory.


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## phrogger (Oct 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bandgeek* 
It's the tone and the intent behind what they are saying. My son was 18 months old when he got real excited one day when his diaper was off and kept signing "elephant" over and over. That's NOT offensive or derogatory.

When someone says, "But ewww, it'll look like an anteater!" That IS offensive and derogatory.

i can understand that part, but just the blanket, it is a derogatory term I don't think is completely fair. I would actually probably laugh it off and say something to my MIL like "yep, guess god has a sense of humor making an animal look like a penis". But then again, I like making my MIL look ignorant.


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## outlier (Sep 29, 2008)

Do people who use the word "anteater" with the intent to insult think real anteaters would look better or be better off with their lips and cheeks cut off so their tongues hang out all the time?


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *noodsma* 
Do people who use the word "anteater" with the intent to insult think real anteaters would look better or be better off with their lips and cheeks cut off so their tongues hang out all the time?

People like that don't put that much thought into the insult.


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## FernG (Feb 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phrogger* 
i can understand that part, but just the blanket, it is a derogatory term I don't think is completely fair. I would actually probably laugh it off and say something to my MIL like "yep, guess god has a sense of humor making an animal look like a penis". But then again, I like making my MIL look ignorant.

I'd be tempted to sarcastically say that uncired females look like disgusting, hairy tacos.


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## SlackerDad (Jun 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *noodsma* 
Do people who use the word "anteater" with the intent to insult think real anteaters would look better or be better off with their lips and cheeks cut off so their tongues hang out all the time?

LOL, good question!

I'm with those who shrug at the anteater thing, as I don't feel like an anteater is something that's inherently considered horrible or disgusting.

ETA: Where would I find one of these boards where actual debate between pro-circ and anti-circ is allowed? I'd be up for a good debate. <g>


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## Toolip (Mar 7, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bandgeek* 
My son was 18 months old when he got real excited one day when his diaper was off and kept signing "elephant" over and over.









that is so cute


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