# Including kids in your normal life



## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

It seems very natural to me to include DS in my normal daily activities. I've gotten some bad looks and some flak for including DS in such normal daily activities. A lot of people seem to think that kids should be, I don't know, 'put somewhere' so adults can just live their lives without inconvenience. And I am honestly offended by people even THINKING that I should leave my son with some babysitter just so I can write a check faster or whatever. It takes a village... I will raise my son to be a productive and active member of society. I don't want him to think that it is his place to just sit quietly cooped up somewhere because he isn't important. I don't think his toddler mind should be occupied with just toys alone. My parents failed miserably at teaching me how to 'live'. Like kids are so inconvenient and unimportant it's better to not have them with you at any given moment. Then when they turn 18 just kick 'em out the door. I think the point of childhood is to learn to be an adult. He needs to see adults in action and know how people interact and the practical side of survival in modern America.


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## mpeel (Nov 20, 2001)

There are very few places I would not take a child. Children should be included in society. They are part of it. I get frustrated with people who treat children as inconveniences or status symbols.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Emily, you are exactly right.









~Nay


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## mamabohl (May 21, 2005)

I agree, I always get people acting like I'm some super mom for ataking 2 kids to the grocery store...ummm...this is part of my life, I'm not going to pay some babysitter just so I can do it a little faster...besides, the trip is so much more fun when I have someone to talk to. (I actually start talking to myself if I go without my boys!







)


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## Helena's mamma (May 9, 2005)

yes, yes, yes, yes and







:

I love bring Little H out and about with me - and more importantly she really loves it. She loves to see what people are doing, how different things are done. I find I have become more focused on what really _needs_ to be done when I know I will be doing errands with her. Plus no matter how the day may head down hill I tend to stay in a better mood because she will do something funny to make me laugh.


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## ILuvMyBaby (Feb 24, 2004)

I got this just this morning at the post office. God forbid I had to fill out a custom form also...you would not have believed the dirty looks I got. I turned to one woman and said I wish they had a drive threw!


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## TurtleMom (Oct 6, 2004)

Very much agree.







But it is hard sometimes to deal with the negative looks. There are some things that I would keep kid-free, but for the kid's sake as much as the adults (e.g. subjecting them to an attempt at a long, sit-down dinner at a nice restaurant). However, I whole-heartedly agree that kids should get to be part of all the usual activities of daily life. I wish more things (like banks) were set up for that or at least expecting it as normal.


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## Jade2561 (Jun 12, 2005)

I totally agree with you ladies. Involving your kids in everyday activities not only ensures you more time with them but they learn so much when they are out and about. Also, if I had to pay for a babysitter/wait for my dh to get home to run errands and grocery shop I would be crunched for time and money. Besides dd loves the hustle and bustle of the outside world and if people don't like it so what - it's a free word and dd is entitled to explore it with me!


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## bobica (May 31, 2004)

wow, that really stinks!!! in my town, kids are part of every daily activity- you can't go to the post office, supermarket, dry cleaners, etc. without seeing kids. i never even thought about it until your post.







sooooo sorry!!


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Well yes, to a point... While I believe that children can and should be included in trips to the grocery store or whatever, I don't think they are necessarily a good part of an expensive meal out or an adult-directed movie or the opera. At least, not until they are old enough to sit still and quiet for such an event and appreciate it for what it is. My husband and I had a very rare "date" the other night which was spoiled by a toddler throwing pasta all over my silk jacket (you know, the one piece of clothing I never wear anymore because I have toddlers at home...) at dinner -- at 9 PM! I don't blame the poor kid who was completely miserable, but I was pretty miffed at the parents for having the child in a non-child friendly restaurant at a non-child friendly time and not taking any steps to keep the child entertained and happy.

I also think that this is a matter of personal choice and depends partly on the temperament of the both kids and parents. If the parent in question is going to drag a screaming child through the grocery store, puncutated with spanking to quiet said child, then I think everyone would be better off if the child was at home with a sitter, daddy or whatever. If the child will not stay close enough to parents to be safe, then its probably better to leave the child at home during outings.

Nor do I think that businesses should necessarily be expected to change their business practices to accomodate children if they aren't "family oriented" to begin with. By all means take your child to the bank, but don't expect the bank to change its set up to keep your child safe. Of course, a bank might chose to become child welcoming as a way to be competitive, but it shouldn't be compelled to do so. Parents who chose to take children "everywhere" should be responsible for that child's safety, comfort, and well-being at all times, not expect others to do so. Not saying that the OP or others do this, but I certainly see plenty of people who seem to expect the world to change for their children.

IMHO, this is definitely one of those "to each her own / do what works for your family" areas.


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## HappyHSer (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:

And I am honestly offended by people even THINKING that I should leave my son with some babysitter just so I can write a check faster or whatever.
I agree. As a culture, separating from young children has become expected to a large degree. We've lost "tolerance" (I don't like using that word) for having children around.

I homeschool, so my kids are with me nearly 24/7. I don't get as many looks now as I did when they were younger.


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

Quote:

I agree. As a culture, separating from young children has become expected to a large degree. We've lost "tolerance" (I don't like using that word) for having children around.
I agree too. Babies and toddlers are to be loved.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
Well yes, to a point... While I believe that children can and should be included in trips to the grocery store or whatever, I don't think they are necessarily a good part of an expensive meal out or an adult-directed movie or the opera.

I also think that this is a matter of personal choice and depends partly on the temperament of the both kids and parents. If the parent in question is going to drag a screaming child through the grocery store, puncutated with spanking to quiet said child, then I think everyone would be better off if the child was at home with a sitter, daddy or whatever. If the child will not stay close enough to parents to be safe, then its probably better to leave the child at home during outings.

Nor do I think that businesses should necessarily be expected to change their business practices to accomodate children if they aren't "family oriented" to begin with. By all means take your child to the bank, but don't expect the bank to change its set up to keep your child safe. Of course, a bank might chose to become child welcoming as a way to be competitive, but it shouldn't be compelled to do so. Parents who chose to take children "everywhere" should be responsible for that child's safety, comfort, and well-being at all times, not expect others to do so. Not saying that the OP or others do this, but I certainly see plenty of people who seem to expect the world to change for their children.

IMHO, this is definitely one of those "to each her own / do what works for your family" areas.









: Very well said. Thank you.
I do not have money for babysitters, but i do have other parents and non-parents that I trade time/childcare with. My kids are not sitting at home, but are at the park, at a festival/community event, having a lot more fun than a trip to the grocery store or bank.
My childless friend loves taking them to places like the Zoo, Children's Museum, Science Museum, all places I cannot afford and even if I did, I would go CRAZY1







In return, I house sit, help her with her college homework, clean her house when she is having family or friends visit(I am one of those claen freaks, like taking Q-tips to the corners and all that







), etc.


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## turtlemama77 (Jul 29, 2005)

Many of my relatives think it's weird that we don't regularly leave dd with a sitter. dh's cousins leave their 2 year olds at least once a week to go out, and sil/bil leave their 5 months old (and have since she was pretty little) quite regularly, too. I don't feel right leaving dd when she's this little, so we just take her with us and we've decided to hold off on going to adult only events until she's older. dh and I like being with our little girl!!

Sheri
Reese (12-22-04)


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

If my children are up to it, I take them everywhere. Not all childen are up to all things. I see people yelling at tired children, or ignoring crying little ones in shopping carts. I think the way some people drag some kids around does show a disrepect for the child's needs, however.

I esp hate to see little ones being castigated for being overwhelmed by overwhelming situations. Huge crowded and noisy shopping malls, for one thing. Not all kids can deal with that. Not all kids can deal with strangers in public, either. I feel bad for children in crowded restaurants that take forever to serve food where their parents expect them to 'behave'. For another, long waits in places like the DMV. That said, some people have no choice and must take children along. I don't mind helping to entertain the bored. I will often invite a bored child over to hear a book I'm reading my own child-- this has been true at the DMV, the dentist and the pedi. I don't like it when i see people treating their tired children poorly.

We all lose it sometimes, but I notice many people have wrong expectations of small children--insisting that they sit still or be quiet (often times i think the paretn is creating more of a fuss controlling than the child is being a child). Lots of folks don't bother to bring food or other items along to keep kids occupied. I hate to see people hitting or grabbing children rather than offer to read a book to them, or play a little game etc. That's why I *never* judge any mom in a public place with a kid chowing down a bag of fries or sitting in grocery cart with an opened box of something.







Maybe it's that or a meltdown. Never think bad thoughts about the mother of a child eating Lucjy Charms in public.


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## Rivka5 (Jul 13, 2005)

It's funny that you should make a post like this on a day that I had to bring my daughter to work with me, due to a combination of urgent work needs and a babysitter mishap. She spent a couple of hours sitting on a blanket on the floor next to my chair, playing with toys and flirting with my research assistant. Now she's in the sling napping. It's not optimal for either her or me, but today it's what had to happen. Fortunately, everyone around me here is baby-flexible.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mpeel*
There are very few places I would not take a child. Children should be included in society. They are part of it. I get frustrated with people who treat children as inconveniences or status symbols.

I agree. With some caveats. I think it is rude and inconsiderate to take children to appointments where you will be occupied and someone else will need to "watch" the child for you in order for you to participate in/conclude the appointment-- or where it will otherwise interfere with the appointment, cause delay in the persons schedule, etc. The type of thing that comes to mind is - dentist appointment, eye doctor, accountant, tax, etc.

Another scenario is I disagree with taking children to adult movies or nice restaurants -- in the late evening no less. In these scenarios it can be (often is) disruptive to those trying to watch the movie, eat the expensive meal (for us - usually some sort of celebration - anniversary maybe?), -- AND, not appropriate for the kid to be up soo late? watching something totallly inappropriate for the age? scary maybe? sexually explicit? suffering through a late evening meal of expensive food they probably don't even like? asking them to "sit still", etc? I'm all for taking kids to restaurants - not saying that - just a familly friendly place and at an appropriate time.


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## CerridwenLorelei (Aug 28, 2002)

we are all night owls and stay up pretty late. We have a different schedule than most and you might see us at at applebees some night at 11 pm on a weekday..
movies I wouldn't take my kids to period. i don't do theatres anymore and they don't need to be there anyway ( personal preference)
However we have had many moons ago ( my oldest is 18 and youngest is 7)
our 3 yr old in nice Japanese resteraunt where he tried sushi
Dd was in places like Red Lobster at two ( before family cut off)
Now would I take the duo to cafe matthew if I ever went NO WAY

Not everyone can reschedule dr appts that have been several times due to lack of sitters.

I am like the pp poster and don't mind entertaining the bored
I keep a ton of stuff in my bag for mine and usually have enough to share.
Dry erase markers and boards, map pencils, coloring sheets, card games etc..


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *QueenOfThePride*
I
faster or whatever. It takes a village... I will raise my son to be a productive and active member of society. I don't want him to think that it is his place to just sit quietly cooped up somewhere because he isn't important.










Which is fine, if the village loves your kid.

"Cooped up'. Like when my sister and I trade taking care of our kids and they have fun, so the other doesn't have to subject the children to boring shit?


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

Sometimes the parents realize that it will be hard to have a child present for certain situations, but have no other options. I guess I'm calling for a little understanding when children are difficult in public. Everyone on this thread probably already understands that. I think it is the non-parents in society that are so intolerant, and unfortunately this thread won't be reaching any of them! It does seem to be the default setting that children are not often welcome to participate in much. I feel that children have just as much of a right to participate in society as adults do (as determined by maturity and ability). And that children ought to be encouraged to get involved in conversations and such. That's a good way to keep them occupied instead of yelling at them.

When I interned at a vet clinic this summer, I loved sharing what I was doing with kids. Like if a kid (and parents) came in with their pet, I explained what was going on in kid language. If I found ear mites from their pet, I invited the kids to come in back to see them crawling around in the microscope. On the farms, I explained to the farm kids about what the vet was doing. I showed them where to press their hand against the side of the cow to feel the calf inside. I explained how we need to get the fluids out of the lungs of newborn calves, etc. I loved it!


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## JoyfulMomma (Sep 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mpeel*
There are very few places I would not take a child. Children should be included in society. They are part of it. I get frustrated with people who treat children as inconveniences or status symbols.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

I guess my post really gets to "respect for others" and "appropriateness" with respect to your own unique kids.

If you are night owls and so are your kids - and they are totally cool at dinner in an expensive restaurant at 9 pm and can totally hang, not making inappropriate noise or running around -- than I'd have no problem with it at all. Or if DD or DS is so calm and mellow that they can sit in a corner and quietly read a book for 45 minutes while you are having your dental work done - and not interrupt, need to be taken to the bathroom, get into the dentists things, etc -- also, no prob. Not my kids - but maybe other people have kids like this. No caveats for kids in adult movies though.

BTW - what does ROFL mean?


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
Well yes, to a point... While I believe that children can and should be included in trips to the grocery store or whatever, I don't think they are necessarily a good part of an expensive meal out or an adult-directed movie or the opera. At least, not until they are old enough to sit still and quiet for such an event and appreciate it for what it is. My husband and I had a very rare "date" the other night which was spoiled by a toddler throwing pasta all over my silk jacket (you know, the one piece of clothing I never wear anymore because I have toddlers at home...) at dinner -- at 9 PM! I don't blame the poor kid who was completely miserable, but I was pretty miffed at the parents for having the child in a non-child friendly restaurant at a non-child friendly time and not taking any steps to keep the child entertained and happy.

I also think that this is a matter of personal choice and depends partly on the temperament of the both kids and parents. If the parent in question is going to drag a screaming child through the grocery store, puncutated with spanking to quiet said child, then I think everyone would be better off if the child was at home with a sitter, daddy or whatever. If the child will not stay close enough to parents to be safe, then its probably better to leave the child at home during outings.

Nor do I think that businesses should necessarily be expected to change their business practices to accomodate children if they aren't "family oriented" to begin with. By all means take your child to the bank, but don't expect the bank to change its set up to keep your child safe. Of course, a bank might chose to become child welcoming as a way to be competitive, but it shouldn't be compelled to do so. Parents who chose to take children "everywhere" should be responsible for that child's safety, comfort, and well-being at all times, not expect others to do so. Not saying that the OP or others do this, but I certainly see plenty of people who seem to expect the world to change for their children.

IMHO, this is definitely one of those "to each her own / do what works for your family" areas.









:

Oops - should have read this post before I posted. Pretty much sums my thoughts up too.


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

I'm right there with ya!

I think it is very important for children to be involved in daily life stuff. Sure, it goes a little faster in the grocery store if DD isn't with me, but when she does come, she gets to be a part of helping our family. The "looks" I get are positive ones - people smile like crazy when they see her helping me smell peaches or feel the weight of grapefruits! And all the other tasks - laundry, bill paying, etc. - well, how will she learn to be self-sufficient if she's kept apart from this stuff until she's grown up?

Plus, don't most children enjoy being made a part of things? I know my DD does. She actually asks to scrub pots and pans...I told her I want it in writing to show her when she's 13!!!


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## aidansmom05 (Jul 10, 2005)

I grew up in a home where my Dad would send us to our room when company came over. He was a firm believer in children should be seen and not heard. I do not believe that at all. I love taking DS with me places. He is 5 1/2 months old and I have only left him three times all for about 2 hrs. One was a dr's appointment and twice DH and I went out to grab a bite to eat, the first time with friends and there were no kids allowed we were told and we got there and they had their 10 month old with them, so I was kind of irritated, and once when dh was having a stressful week. Most instances I do not go anywhere where children are not allowed, so it is not usually an issue for me, but DH is more likely to want to leave him with a sitter than I am.


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## jenmk (Apr 28, 2005)

I agree. My kids go with me everywhere . . . it actually doesn't occur to me to find someone to watch them when I have a dr appt or go to the bank or grocery store. I always have food and water in my bag, as well as books and things to entertain. We also never go out to expensive restaurants or movies . . . I guess we really don't go anywhere that children would not be welcome or appropriate. So it's never an issue.

I'm a firm believer in including kids in your daily life, making them a part of the fun and the boring stuff. That's life. And what's wrong with being a little bored once in a while? Gosh, I don't want to have to entertain them all day long. I don't even want them to be entertained all day long everyday! They'll become adults who constantly need to be entertained too. Each day has ups and downs, fasts and slows, excitement and calm, fun and boredom. Mixing it up with kid-centered stuff and adult-centered stuff. It's all family stuff.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom*
BTW - what does ROFL mean?

"Roll on floor laughing"


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

I take my son with me pretty much everywhere, with the exception of doctor's appointments, unless I've cleared it with the doctor first. My son is 2.5, and he just can't handle waiting for hours in a tiny waiting/exam room. This is why I can't ever get to the doctor







. Other than doctor's offices, he goes everywhere with me. I just have to respect the fact that, hello, he's two, and he's going to have tantrums/behavior problems occasionally. He loves to go out with me, and it's usually not an issue.

Honestly I wish there were more stores like IKEA. IKEA is truly child-friendly, they have those little play houses everywhere and nobody cares if the kids climb on stuff. My son loves IKEA when we go there.


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## crunchyconmomma (Feb 6, 2003)

oh i wish you could have met this fabulous grandmotherly (none of her own, yet) French painter woman in my town. she said what PP's have said - that they have to be in life to learn how to live in life. she was so wonderful and it made me feel good to be around her. and to just snidely (in my head) think, "oh you silly unworldly american" when someone acts like i shouldn't have kids in tow at all times.
truthfully, i am sad that i am not allowed to take DS (although i understand) to the gym with me. he would LOVE the machines and we could do the treadmill together and stuff. oh how fun that would be! and what better way to learn the "american way" of fitness for so many of us! and gym etiquette. he LOVES to learn this sort of thing.
keep doing what you are doing and think in your head, "you're welcome for what i am doing to make the world a better place for you when my kids' generation inherits it."


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

You know, when Iam out and about with my 3 toddlers either I am too busy with them or doing my thing, but I have never noticed any type of subliminal attitude or pressure or even idea that I shouldnt have come with my kids.
Maybe it is where I live. Now I do get comments about my hands being full. But I dont blame them. Most people wouldnt dream go to WalMart with 2 2 year olds and a 3 year old. But I have never even gotten the message that kids "dont belong" at the post office, grocery store, pharmacy etc. . .
But then again my dh does call me "oblivoline" Because I am so oblivious.

Unfortunately I do do a lot of my stuff at night or when I can get somebody else to watch my kids too. But that is only because there are three of them, and it just IS so much easier for me to go by myself. If I only had one it would never have occurred to me to have my mom come watch him so I could do errands. How lazy would that be?

Oh and even Drs appts. My DS1 came to every prenatal appt with me. He even sat on my chest during a pelvic! Again though, I couldnt have done that with two or three.

Joline


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## ~Nikki~ (Aug 4, 2004)

I know of a few parents who treat their kids like accessories, only to be taken out when it's a good time to be seen, and put away during those "inconvenient" times. I was raised by a mother like this. Unfortunatly, she couldn't afford a sitter. So when she went out to see friends at the coffee shop at 10pm, my sisters and I had to sit in the freezing cold car. It sucked.

I see this mentality from a lot of parents. Kids are an inconvenience. They want their kids in bed at a certain time. They want them sleeping for 10-12 hours a night. Not for the child's well being, but so that the parent can have "their" time. I have friends that just don't understand why we can't go out on a whim, and stay out all hours of the night. Their kids are at a babysitter's. Why can't we get one? I honestly don't understand why people like this even HAVE children. If they are a burden, and you would be happier without them, then what's the point? There's nothing wrong, in my eyes, with NOT having children. But people continue to have them because it's just the fashionable thing to do once you reach a certain age. Sorry if I got a little side-tracked there.

We bring our kids everywhere. We try to plan errands around the time that DH is home, and all four of us go. It's fun for DD to do grocery shopping, and things like that. I see nothing wrong with it....cutting this short, DS is up for a feed.


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## Englishmummy (Sep 30, 2005)

I disagree with the "up to a point" mothers. I think children and babies should have the right to go everywhere, including the opera. I am sorry for the silk jacket Evan&Annasmom, but I do not think 9 o'clock is late. Have you ever been to Spain where they eat dinner at 11 and children are out at midnight or Italy where children are in any restaurant!?

I think that our male-dominated histories have created societies where children and mothers are not welcome. I fortunately live in Japan and have experienced family-orientated life in Spain and Italy, which means that I left my "no children (and no NOISE) view" somewhere on the port at Dover. Please read The Politics of Breastfeeding - it is fabulous! Please travel!!










PS. I think children have the right to go everywhere the mother goes- even expensive restaurants, even if they are not so "well-behaved" (what does that mean anyway? I have seen loads of "badly-behaved" adults). I do not believe in accomodating the child, that is the parents job. Of course women should not be barred from 'mens' activities, so why should children. Don't men complain that women gossip and chat too much to be in men's clubs etc?
End of rant!


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## OakBerry (May 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
Well yes, to a point... While I believe that children can and should be included in trips to the grocery store or whatever, I don't think they are necessarily a good part of an expensive meal out or an adult-directed movie or the opera. At least, not until they are old enough to sit still and quiet for such an event and appreciate it for what it is. My husband and I had a very rare "date" the other night which was spoiled by a toddler throwing pasta all over my silk jacket (you know, the one piece of clothing I never wear anymore because I have toddlers at home...) at dinner -- at 9 PM! I don't blame the poor kid who was completely miserable, but I was pretty miffed at the parents for having the child in a non-child friendly restaurant at a non-child friendly time and not taking any steps to keep the child entertained and happy.

I also think that this is a matter of personal choice and depends partly on the temperament of the both kids and parents. If the parent in question is going to drag a screaming child through the grocery store, puncutated with spanking to quiet said child, then I think everyone would be better off if the child was at home with a sitter, daddy or whatever. If the child will not stay close enough to parents to be safe, then its probably better to leave the child at home during outings.

Nor do I think that businesses should necessarily be expected to change their business practices to accomodate children if they aren't "family oriented" to begin with. By all means take your child to the bank, but don't expect the bank to change its set up to keep your child safe. Of course, a bank might chose to become child welcoming as a way to be competitive, but it shouldn't be compelled to do so. Parents who chose to take children "everywhere" should be responsible for that child's safety, comfort, and well-being at all times, not expect others to do so. Not saying that the OP or others do this, but I certainly see plenty of people who seem to expect the world to change for their children.

IMHO, this is definitely one of those "to each her own / do what works for your family" areas.

Ita!








I take my ds everywhere with me, always have. I honestly haven't noticed an "anti child" attitude in the businesses I frequent. Lots of other moms and kids around too.

I must admit, that going to the grocery store and doing errands on the weekend when ds is home with dh feels like a luxury.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Englishmummy*
I disagree with the "up to a point" mothers. I think children and babies should have the right to go everywhere, including the opera. I am sorry for the silk jacket Evan&Annasmom, but I do not think 9 o'clock is late. Have you ever been to Spain where they eat dinner at 11 and children are out at midnight or Italy where children are in any restaurant!?









: When I was in Italy I was impressed with the respect children were given. Kids can go anywhere and are allowed to be kids. I loved it.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I often leave them home for errands, but that's due to my own stress levels. Granted, if places were more welcoming, I'd likely try more. I make an effort to frequent businesses (like banks) that have little play corners for kids while the parents wait. I skip toystores that shout "Don't touch!" to little toddlers who are behaving nicely (in a TOY store!) and barely handling merchandise. (Wasn't my kid, and I complained.







)


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Englishmummy*
I disagree with the "up to a point" mothers. I think children and babies should have the right to go everywhere, including the opera. I am sorry for the silk jacket Evan&Annasmom, but I do not think 9 o'clock is late. Have you ever been to Spain where they eat dinner at 11 and children are out at midnight or Italy where children are in any restaurant!?

I think that our male-dominated histories have created societies where children and mothers are not welcome. I fortunately live in Japan and have experienced family-orientated life in Spain and Italy, which means that I left my "no children (and no NOISE) view" somewhere on the port at Dover. Please read The Politics of Breastfeeding - it is fabulous! Please travel!!










PS. I think children have the right to go everywhere the mother goes- even expensive restaurants, even if they are not so "well-behaved" (what does that mean anyway? I have seen loads of "badly-behaved" adults). I do not believe in accomodating the child, that is the parents job. Of course women should not be barred from 'mens' activities, so why should children. Don't men complain that women gossip and chat too much to be in men's clubs etc?
End of rant!









:

Right there with you - but I haven't travelled much.
My mom was much older when she had me and had much older children also. She had decided she'd put her life on-hold long enough and figured she'd just take me along with her to do all the things she wanted to do! It worked out great for her - she always told me how wonderful it was to have me around and how much her older friends liked having a baby about. Of course, with only one it's much easier but that's pretty much what I'm doing - taking her along as needed!


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Englishmummy*
I disagree with the "up to a point" mothers. I think children and babies should have the right to go everywhere, including the opera. I am sorry for the silk jacket Evan&Annasmom, but I do not think 9 o'clock is late. Have you ever been to Spain where they eat dinner at 11 and children are out at midnight or Italy where children are in any restaurant!?

I think that our male-dominated histories have created societies where children and mothers are not welcome. I fortunately live in Japan and have experienced family-orientated life in Spain and Italy, which means that I left my "no children (and no NOISE) view" somewhere on the port at Dover. Please read The Politics of Breastfeeding - it is fabulous! Please travel!!










PS. I think children have the right to go everywhere the mother goes- even expensive restaurants, even if they are not so "well-behaved" (what does that mean anyway? I have seen loads of "badly-behaved" adults). I do not believe in accomodating the child, that is the parents job. Of course women should not be barred from 'mens' activities, so why should children. Don't men complain that women gossip and chat too much to be in men's clubs etc?
End of rant!

I agree in principle but not in practice. Kids should be allowed anywhere adults go. But in my experience, and my family. THere are just some places that a child wouldnt want to be anyway. So it is pure torment for them to be expected to sit through a movie/show that they do not understand or enjoy, or go to a restaurant where they are expected to keep their voices down and enjoy the deightful adult conversation.
There are places I do not take my children (even when I had one) but not because society tells me they do not belong there. But because my child would not enjoy it, and as a result neither would I.
Now if a small child just loved opera, then that small child does belong in an opera house with his parents. But I wouldnt take my child to one.
Joline


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momoffour*







: When I was in Italy I was impressed with the respect children were given. Kids can go anywhere and are allowed to be kids. I loved it.

I agree with this welcoming attitude, and I am glad to hear what it's like outside the US. This reminds me of something I witnessed a couple weeks ago. DH, DS and I were at a restaurant (not really a fancy one) and we were seated next to a family from Sweden. It is unusual to find foreigners in my small midwestern town. They had a little boy about 2 or 3 years old, and he was just so cute! They let him just run loose around the restaurant. He just explored and didn't cause any trouble. So it is funny that you mentioned that is how it is in other countries, and now I totally believe you.

At the time, I did feel a little twinge of worry that he would get into something, but what I really was thinking about was the boy getting kidnapped. I just felt like it was so wierd that the (young, hip) parents were so relaxed. The parents were not even paying attention to him at all! Maybe kidnapping is extremely uncommon overseas? They seemed to trust that the average person nearby would keep an eye on him. That must be how it is in Europe. I think that is a GREAT social ideal. I would definitely keep an eye on random unattended children for their own safety, and not feel at all that the parents were being imposing or irresponsible.


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

Quote:

THere are just some places that a child wouldnt want to be anyway.
Why would I take my kid somewhere he doesn't want to be?










.


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## primjillie (May 4, 2004)

While I agree that children should be welcome almost anywhere, letting a 2 year old roam a restaurant is just not safe. If your child cannot sit for a while or an adult cannot walk the child around, I don't think they should there. The fact that they were not even paying attention to him leads me to think they wanted to go out and didn't want to bother with the child at all. I have my eyes on my toddler at all times when I am out.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *primjillie*
While I agree that children should be welcome almost anywhere, letting a 2 year old roam a restaurant is just not safe. If your child cannot sit for a while or an adult cannot walk the child around, I don't think they should there. The fact that they were not even paying attention to him leads me to think they wanted to go out and didn't want to bother with the child at all. I have my eyes on my toddler at all times when I am out.

I am kinda in agreement here. I dont think this was necessarily a stand taken in favor of child friendliness.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

I saw lots of kids in restaurants in Italy roaming with freedom, but they were never wild or unsafe. Maybe because it is so common, and they are given the freedom early and often they learn to handle it well.


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

:

That's an excellent theory, and is in alignment with my parenting philosophy.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

I recently was attending a business conference and I didn't have childcare and the event director told me to bring my dd (2 yo). She sat SILENTLY next to me in a chair reading books happily for an hour while I attended a workshop and then behaved very quietly and calmly for hours more in the tradeshow area. Not one incident of acting up or crying or anything. I got SOOO MANY dirty looks and jaw droping looks like I had my bra on the outside of my clothes or something, "OH MY GOD THAT WOMAN HAS A TODDLER AT A CONVENTION!" It was noisy anyways and it wouldn't have been noticable if she had acted up but she never did. It was a women's entreprenuers conference so most of the audience/vendors were women. The few men were very friendly to her. Most of the women avoided me like the plague even though I'd had an entorage of a**kissers the night before when she was home with daddy when my art was being presented and auctioned. The whole experience made me want to vomit. The mentality of the conference was that women had to become like jr. men and be free from child responsibilities to be truly 'equal'. I am ALL about women equality and I want all the freedoms that men experience but I don't want a child free society and I'd rather see kids out with their parents in business places even acting like kids a little (within reason - and only with gentle discipline - the parents yelling at their kids is more disturbing to me than the kids acting up). That said parents do need to keep their kids tolerance for a long day, over stimulation, etc. in mind and be fair to the kid - don't drag them out to something they're going to hate and their going to make everyone else miserable.

But the bank - many business things can be done with kids in tow I think.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

There is certainly room for cultural and family differences. If you are in Spain and dinner time is 11 PM, then thats what a child is used to, even if you are visiting in the US where dinner is generally earlier, especially for kids. If you have a "night owl" family then you go out late in the evening and it works. But if you are in the US and your family's "normal" dinnertime is at 6 and now you have a 15 mo. old in a non-family-friendly restaurant at 9 PM and the kid is howling and throwing pasta at everyone without reach because he is bored, ignored, strapped down and tired, then its a bad situation. If you child likes classical music or opera or ballet, then by all means take them. But if they don't AND you don't want to go through any trouble to make them happy, then please DON'T ruin things for everyone else and take them anyway. I didn't say that all children should be home and not in restaurants at 9 PM, I said that children who were miserable and parents who didn't seem to care shouldn't be there.

Its a matter of respecting your child, your family, and those around you. Of course children should be welcomed just about anywhere. But if its an unusual place for a child or a difficult situation for most children, then you have to expect that others might be a little leary until they see that your child is fine. And if the child needs some props (snack, book, toy, whatever) to be happy, then the parents should respect that and plan accordingly. And if the child isn't fine, then, barring an emergency or some unusual circumstances, then they should be where they will be happier and healthier.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
I agree in principle but not in practice. Kids should be allowed anywhere adults go. But in my experience, and my family. THere are just some places that a child wouldnt want to be anyway. So it is pure torment for them to be expected to sit through a movie/show that they do not understand or enjoy, or go to a restaurant where they are expected to keep their voices down and enjoy the deightful adult conversation.
There are places I do not take my children (even when I had one) but not because society tells me they do not belong there. But because my child would not enjoy it, and as a result neither would I.
Now if a small child just loved opera, then that small child does belong in an opera house with his parents. But I wouldnt take my child to one.
Joline









:


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *QueenOfThePride*
Why would I take my kid somewhere he doesn't want to be?










.

Well, the post was in response to the "I take my kids everywhere I go" posts. I love being with my kids and spend the vast majority of my time with them. However, I love my husband - that's how I got my kids that I love so much - I occasionally enjoy his uninterrupted company. Dinners out uninterrupted in adult restaurants for a lingereing evening meal with wine and all the courses . . . . that is somewhere I REALLY like to be . . .and my kids . . . . don't? So, that is one example? Is it really sooo far fetched?


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

Quote:

Well, the post was in response to the "I take my kids everywhere I go" posts.
Well, I don't take DS everywhere either. But if I choose to, I could do without the 'get a babysitter' attitude. Kids should be included in as much as possible, not everything without exception. I wouldn't want my kid seeing an R rated movie anyway.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *primjillie*
While I agree that children should be welcome almost anywhere, letting a 2 year old roam a restaurant is just not safe. If your child cannot sit for a while or an adult cannot walk the child around, I don't think they should there. The fact that they were not even paying attention to him leads me to think they wanted to go out and didn't want to bother with the child at all. I have my eyes on my toddler at all times when I am out.


You might be right about this particular couple. I don`t know them. But in my experience (as a Norwegian living in Norway), this is not why most Norwegian parents (and presumably Swedish) let their children run around in a restaurant.

It is just normal here. I have never been to a restaurant that DIDN`T have children running around.

I have never understood why it isn`t safe to let a child walk freely in a restaurant. I have never, ever heard of a child getting hurt while running around a restaurant here in Norway.

Children are welcome at restaurants here, as far as I know. And I have been to quite a few. More or less every restaurant I have been to have small toys/gifts for the children. Crayons, ballons, paper to draw on etc.

And the same goes for most big postoffices, dentist, doctors offices, banks etc. They have Legotables for the kids, or some other activitystations.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CrunchyTamara*
It is just normal here. I have never been to a restaurant that DIDN`T have children running around.

I have never understood why it isn`t safe to let a child walk freely in a restaurant. I have never, ever heard of a child getting hurt while running around a restaurant here in Norway.

Well, I've never travelled or dined outside of the US (well, not as an adult anyway). I have, however, waited an awful lot of tables in the US. Maybe because it is NOT the norm to allow children to wander here, the servers aren't used to watching for little ones under foot. If you are carrying a 20 lb. tray of hot plates and full glasses and you get off balance, someone gets hurt. I came close to scalding a child once because I had a sizzle platter on a tray and tripped over a child. The platter (about 300 degrees hot) went flying -- I actually kicked it away from the child before it hit. That, of course, resulted in an injury to me and burn on the floor. But at least it didn't hit the child. I did loose my job though, because I couldn't work the rest of my shift due to burned leg/foot.

Kids move fast, in unpredictable patterns, and well below eye level (especially if the restaurant expects you to carry your trays up high, which requires you to keep your head up for balance/posture). It is really easy to step on them, to trip and have them get hit by something you were carrying, or for them to try to touch a really hot dish on a tray stand.

At any rate, in a restaurant with hot, heavy plates and servers carrying trays, they really can get hurt very easily. Thus they shouldn't be down and wandering unsupervised.


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## primjillie (May 4, 2004)

Tamara ~ how interesting that the kids run around like that without getting hurt or yelled at. Maybe here our aisles are too narrow and everyone is always in such a hurry? Or maybe the servers are expected to carry and do too much? I just know the restaurants I have been too would not be safe for a young child and here in the US there is always the threat of kidnapping. Maybe we can learn something from Norway. (BTW I am norwegian but born in the US). My granddaughter's favorite place in a restaurant is under the table, but I am afraid of the "yuck" factor under tables so we wedge her in a booth with us and color with her.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CrunchyTamara*
I have never understood why it isn`t safe to let a child walk freely in a restaurant. I have never, ever heard of a child getting hurt while running around a restaurant here in Norway.

No one is suppose to "run around" in a restaurant. Waiters carrying heavy trays with lots of steaming hot beverages and food is one reason I can think of. Tables spaced closely together to accomodate the most patrons. Kids at knee level - waiters trays obstructing their view from chest down??


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## pfamilygal (Feb 28, 2005)

I'll take my kids pretty much anywhere they are allowed to go except the doctor's office. I end up spending the whole time entertaining the kids and never get my questions asked. I need to be able to focus on the appt. Plus, the OB's office isn't very kid friendly.

We do try to respect others when we take them out. If they were being loud I would take them home. And we do leave them with Grandpa so we can have date night, which usually means working on our budget or other fun things.

I have to admit. I went to a scrapbooking 6 hr scrap one evening, after begging dh for a night out with the girls. We (me = my three sisters) came in and put our stuff at the tables (6 to a table) and then a lady came in with a 3 month old and put her on the table. She smiled and said "I'm nursing, so I can't leave her at home." The baby proceeded to fuss loudly for 20 minutes while she arranged her things. I about wet my pants I was so irritated. I had been looking forward to one night out for months. I had pumped so dh had milk for the baby and had brought a pump to use during the scrap. I did not want to hear her baby cry - I wanted to enjoy our night. The lady from the scrapbooking store came over and told her she either needed to leave or get someone to take the baby home. The mom got really upset and stormed out. I felt badly for being glad that she was gone. I mean, you want to support a breastfeeding mom. But it was clearly stated in the registration info that no children under 12 are permitted. Also, if it is a girl's night out, then it should be kid-free. Oy! Anyway, I'm sure I'll get flamed for being glad that she left (I did say "Good for you! Me too!" when she mentioned nursing). But part of taking your kids out means respecting others.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom*
No one is suppose to "run around" in a restaurant. Waiters carrying heavy trays with lots of steaming hot beverages and food is one reason I can think of. Tables spaced closely together to accomodate the most patrons. Kids at knee level - waiters trays obstructing their view from chest down??


I respect that you think so. But I don`t.

As I have said, this isn`t a problem here. If it IS a problem in USA, then thats not something I have a problem with. But it is not a problem here, and therefor your statement isn`t true here.

Oooh, and by the way: Most waiters here don`t use trays. They carry plates and such by hand, no tray.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pfamilygal*
I have to admit. I went to a scrapbooking 6 hr scrap one evening, after begging dh for a night out with the girls. We (me = my three sisters) came in and put our stuff at the tables (6 to a table) and then a lady came in with a 3 month old and put her on the table. She smiled and said "I'm nursing, so I can't leave her at home." The baby proceeded to fuss loudly for 20 minutes while she arranged her things. I about wet my pants I was so irritated. I had been looking forward to one night out for months. I had pumped so dh had milk for the baby and had brought a pump to use during the scrap. I did not want to hear her baby cry - I wanted to enjoy our night. The lady from the scrapbooking store came over and told her she either needed to leave or get someone to take the baby home. The mom got really upset and stormed out. I felt badly for being glad that she was gone. I mean, you want to support a breastfeeding mom. But it was clearly stated in the registration info that no children under 12 are permitted. Also, if it is a girl's night out, then it should be kid-free. Oy! Anyway, I'm sure I'll get flamed for being glad that she left (I did say "Good for you! Me too!" when she mentioned nursing). But part of taking your kids out means respecting others.

I hope you don't get flamed. And want to weigh in with a







These type of comments can be so easily taken out of context - and we are ALL moms and LOVE our kids - so its not some competition there about who loves theirs more and spends more time with them. But I've seen a lot of posting here as well as discussion in the magazine about the need to "nurture" ourselves and do things like take time for ourselves -- and this is a perfect example of an event set up just for that purpose (clearing stating - no kids under 12) - and how on the rare occassion that you do get to do something for yourself, it would be rude for someone to impose and kind of, well, wreck it for you?

So back to the OP -- including kids in "normal life" - most PPs seem to agree that day to day errands, etc. it is important to bring 'em with if you can. Perhaps these are examples of special adult outtings - and not "normal life".


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## Bethla (May 29, 2004)

When my dh and I are out dining alone and there are other kids in the restaurant we love it. I don't go out with my dh because I want to be away from children, we go out so we can spend some time together. It makes me sad that other moms are so judgemental about where kids should be. It makes me think that they may love and value their own children but view other peoples' children negatively.

There's a great small restaurant here in Sacramento, CA called the Family House. The staff is trained to deal with kids underfoot and they have good kid meal selections-also a play area. We don't give our bussiness to restaurants that wouldn't make our kids (or anyone elses) kids welcome.


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## Bethla (May 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pfamilygal*
I'll take my kids pretty much anywhere they are allowed to go except the doctor's office. I end up spending the whole time entertaining the kids and never get my questions asked. I need to be able to focus on the appt. Plus, the OB's office isn't very kid friendly.

We do try to respect others when we take them out. If they were being loud I would take them home. And we do leave them with Grandpa so we can have date night, which usually means working on our budget or other fun things.

I have to admit. I went to a scrapbooking 6 hr scrap one evening, after begging dh for a night out with the girls. We (me = my three sisters) came in and put our stuff at the tables (6 to a table) and then a lady came in with a 3 month old and put her on the table. She smiled and said "I'm nursing, so I can't leave her at home." The baby proceeded to fuss loudly for 20 minutes while she arranged her things. I about wet my pants I was so irritated. I had been looking forward to one night out for months. I had pumped so dh had milk for the baby and had brought a pump to use during the scrap. I did not want to hear her baby cry - I wanted to enjoy our night. The lady from the scrapbooking store came over and told her she either needed to leave or get someone to take the baby home. The mom got really upset and stormed out. I felt badly for being glad that she was gone. I mean, you want to support a breastfeeding mom. But it was clearly stated in the registration info that no children under 12 are permitted. Also, if it is a girl's night out, then it should be kid-free. Oy! Anyway, I'm sure I'll get flamed for being glad that she left (I did say "Good for you! Me too!" when she mentioned nursing). But part of taking your kids out means respecting others.


Yeah, great support.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CrunchyTamara*
As I have said, this isn`t a problem here.

Okay.







You'd know better than me if restaurants work differently wherever you are?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CrunchyTamara*
Oooh, and by the way: Most waiters here don`t use trays. They carry plates and such by hand, no tray.

Well, That must make all the difference?


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

Hear hear to the OP.

I not only love dd, I like her and enjoy spending my time with her. I think part of the reason she's so sanguine about being in a variety of situations is because she's so used to it. Sure, I take common sense measures -- at a long dentist appt. my sister comes with us; I always have snacks and a couple toys in the diaper bag -- but she loves our adventures and I don't see how she's supposed to learn if she's at home with a sitter.


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## primjillie (May 4, 2004)

Where in Sacramento is this restaurant? I live in Sacramento too and haven't heard of it. Does it have good food?


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Hunh. A lot of the "I don't think children should be at X event, because Y happened" seem to have more to do with parenting and respecting children's needs than whether the children should be there in the first place.
We always eat late. Dd is usually a complete dream in restaurants - we've had waitresses brag to the cooking staff about how fun/cute/etc she is. But recently we were on a trip and in a somewhat fancy restaurant (the only decent one near the hotel, so I don't know what y'all would have expected us to do otherwise, plus it was dh's birthday), and she was in a horrible mood. Yeah, some parents might have ignored her needs and stayed, but instead I wound up getting my supper packed up and ate it back at the hotel. Why did I do this? Well, partly out of courtesy to the other patrons, but mostly because dd was just miserable and I refuse to put her through something like that. Do I think that just because she started to fuss while we were there that meant we never should have tried going there? Absolutely not! And I think it's ridiculous to suggest I shouldn't have taken her because of that. What it came down to was respecting her needs, which the parents in the above examples obviously weren't doing for their children.
I totally agree that children should be a part of everyday life. I also think that there is a difference between everyday life and doing something "special" or "out of the ordinary" - in some cases children shouldn't be taken, and in some cases they should - but this so much depends on the individual child and the situation. And there's no harm in leaving if it doesn't work out. Would I avoid exposing dd to the culture of a museum or an opera just because she *might* get bored? NO! But if she did start to fuss, we would leave the setting either for a moment until she calmed down or to go home if neccessary. Quite frankly, I wouldn't make my husband sit through an opera with me if he was in pain or uncomfortable or bored out of his tree, either.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Okay, I must be really dense, but where are people begrudging you bringing your children? I mean, okay, taking your kid along for your brazillian wax might not be the best idea







, but taking your child to places like the grocery, the post office, etc., seems, well, NORMAL to me.







I'm confused.

I don't take ds everywhere...I go alone to get my hair cut, and I go alone to some doctor's appointments for myself, but for the most part, I have a small person in tow. I've gotten very skilled at managing him, and he loves it 'cause he gets to hang out in the Ergo or sling or backpack the whole time usually.

Who are these people that think kids should just be left at home and wtf is wrong with them?


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:

When my dh and I are out dining alone and there are other kids in the restaurant we love it. I don't go out with my dh because I want to be away from children, we go out so we can spend some time together. It makes me sad that other moms are so judgemental about where kids should be. It makes me think that they may love and value their own children but view other peoples' children negatively.








:


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## UmmBnB (Mar 28, 2005)

I'm very much in agreement that kids should be included in day to day life. We typically do all our shopping as a family and eat out quite a lot in many different types of restaurants as a family. Fortunately we live in a city where it is common to see kids dining in upscale places, as well as hole in the wall joints.

That said, I sooooo cherish those times when I get to shop sans kids and husband!!!! I LOVE lunch out during the work day and evening dates with dh. Dining out is a chore these days. I LOVE being able to do any kind of shopping from thrifing, Targeting, grocery shopping all by my self!!!

Ds is such a picky eater that we have to make sure we go someplace that we know will have something he'll eat. Dd is just into *everything*. It's darned exhausting! BUT we do it because we believe its important that they learn about what is and is not appropriate when dining out.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

i haven't read the replies yet so maybe i'm repeating someone else's experience...it took me a while to be ok with taking my son everywhere with me. i was always so terrified that he'd throw up and i'd be embarrassed or overwhelmed (he was a HUGE puker, up until VERY recently). i was absolutely terrified of "those looks" and i really let it limit what i did. i'd stay home most of the time with ds or go to parks, etc...but never out to "normal" places like out to lunch, to the mall, to run errands. now, i don't think i was *depriving* my son of anything by not letting him experience those things, but i think i was depriving ME of some normalcy. looking back, i feel like i sort of cut myself out of my own life and treated having a child like having the plague. i stopped seeing friends bc oh my gosh what if my child vomits on them???

i realize that this is extreme, and my own issue...it took a lot for me to learn that it really is ok for things to go wrong, and that i won't blow up if my child freaks out in public. i'll just quietly remove myself from the situation, redirect him, bring out a toy, play some games, etc....now it's second nature for me and i don't know why i was so freaked out. restaurants were still not high on our list bc of the vomit issue, but i've even started going out to lunch with him by myself. he still won't eat very much or very varied things, but i can bring his food with me and have a grand old time with him.

anyway, i'm not sure if it is because i sheltered him so much from "the world" or if it's his temperament, but he is VERY wary of new places/buildings. he gets very upset and tries to self-soothe by saying "it's ok it's ok". of course any time he does that i leave and don't put him through that. he's also overwhelmed when meeting new people, when given new gifts, etc...so i don't know if it's related to not having exposure to it or if it's really just who he is...maybe i'll never know...

i don't even know if my experience is totally on-topic, but i thought i'd share anyway. LOL i think that taking your kids everywhere isn't always easy...it took a lot for me to get to the point where i'd even try...but now that i do, i realize it's not as scary as i thought. but i will admit that if i have the choice, i'd rather do my errands by myself. LOL


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Finch - i just saw your siggy and requested to join the SID/SPD group...







and i love your Wise Women quote! LMBO!!!


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michelemiller*
Finch - i just saw your siggy and requested to join the SID/SPD group...







and i love your Wise Women quote! LMBO!!!

It's a great group, you're gonna love it! I got so many pm's requesting the link for it, so I just figured what the heck, and put it in my siggy.









I sooooo know what you're living with a kid who freaks out easily in public. It has taken me a looooong time to not feel like some sort of failure as a mother when he does freak, and how to manage him "defensively" so that I can prevent freak-outs in the first place. My well-meaning friends and generally clueless dh (he was at work all day so didn't get the full effect of ds's SID like I did pre-diagnosis) always chided me for being such a "hermit" and not going out more with ds when he was young (and in the throes of colic and wicked reflux, thank you very much). Well hell, if your kid has a total freak out meltdown every damn time you take him out of the house, YOU'D stay home all the time too!! LOL. Anyway....

Think I should crochet the wise women quote on a tea cozy?


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I think in the U.S. we're so used to most places NOT being kid-friendly that many of us can't even imagine what it's like to be that way- we don't expect kid play areas in doctor offices or don't feel okay ourselves with kids in public much of the time. Sure some kids are dragged around unwilling, but it seems like moms with kids get dirty looks often times before the kid even acts up.


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## eldadeedlit (Jun 22, 2004)

Wow well I'd love not to take the kids to my doctor's appointments but unfortunately most of the time that is just not an option. I sure hope people don't think I'm being "rude" when I bring them. I just don't have a babysitter.

As far as the grocery store, post office, etc., go, I've never gotten a dirty look or anything. I can't imagine why anybody would think there was anything wrong with bringing kids along when you do chores. It seems like the only practical thing to do.


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## ToniaStarr (Sep 27, 2005)

I unschool my boys and think the best way for them to learn is to live. My children are better aware of life as a whole as ages 4 and 2 than some teens I know. Because I allow them to be a part of things, not silent in the background.
Tonia


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pfamilygal*
But it was clearly stated in the registration info that no children under 12 are permitted. .

I guess I always assume a babe in arms is the exception as more an extension of the mother and not a separate "child" . As a mom of an infant I could no more go somewhere without my 3 month old than I could go without my own head. I have even called places under these circumstances to check "When you say no children does that include a babe in arms?" Usually people only care if it is a mobile baby or toddler that needs constant supervisoin.
In that situation my thoughts usually are more along the line of "Maybe I could have brought my baby?" and not "I wish that lady didnt bring her baby"


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

CrunchyTamara, that sounds lovely. Wish it were more like that here. On the rare occasion that we "eat out," it is with the kids and at a place like Pizza Hut. I feel like I spend the entire time "containing" the kids. Not that they aren't my responsibility, I'm not trying to shirk my duty with them. I think, though, that people's expectations of how kids should behave in public (seen and not heard -- oh wait, not seen either, unless they are cute and just sitting there to look at) are unreasonable. I wouldn't want to "force" the village mentality on anyone, but it is unfortunate that we are so disconnected. I'm happy to help out/entertain other kids who are out and cranky. If I don't want to be complaining about socially misfit teens in 10 years, I should be welcoming of the little kids now, IMO, and help them feel like they are a welome, valued part of society.

I don't really see how kids at a class, lesson, night out, whatever, would really be a big deal. If the room/area/theatre/whatever were filled with noisy kids running around causing mayhem, well yes, that's a problem. But I think those kinds of situations would happen less often if kids were included in those activities regularly and learned how to deal with it. Occasionally, on dh's day off, the 1 yo naps and I go run errands on my own. That's my "me time." It is nice for me to be out without having to worry about *my* kids while I do my thing. A legion of noisy toddlers wouldn't really spoil it for me, though.

That being said, if I couldn't bring my nursing babe in arms somewhere, I wouldn't go, though I too might assume that a nursing babe was an exception. It has been at most "no kids" activities I have been interested in attending. I would call to find out first, though. I don't pump or use bottles at all, so pumping to attend an evening out wouldn't be an option.

Maybe I'll just move to Norway. I like winter.








I just went and googled Norway climate. I thought it had a long, cold, snowy winter. It seems I'm wrong. I think I would move anyway. The montly average temps were below 20 C and above -10 C on one chart I found. Is it very rainy? I like the look of a nice blue sky, but don't much care for being *in* the sun, lol. The long summer days/short winter days would be difficult, though. We do have a bit of that here, but not nearly that much. I think the longest days of daylight we get are 15 hours, not 18 hours, and then 9 hours of daylight in the winter. I hate trying to get the kids to bed at a decent time in the summer! Waking up to starry skies in the winter is lovely, though.

And I *love* fish. (I googled Norway food just to make sure I wasn't mistaken again, and I'm drooling now.)


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

Quote:

i stopped seeing friends bc oh my gosh what if my child vomits on them???
ROTFLMBO! That is such a hilarious comment! Thanks for making my day! ... Not to make fun, but that really is funny!

I also agree with pp who said a nursing baby in arms is not really like a 'child'. I brought DS to a lot of places when he was an infant that I wouldn't bring him now. It was easy, he never ever cried when he was a baby. He would just eat, and sleep through anything. To this day, he always takes everything in stride. Last night we went out with friends to a restaurant, and DS loved it. He ate his food, didn't make much of a mess, and 'talked' with everyone. He loves getting attention from strangers, and laughed whenever everyone else laughed, garnering more attention for himself! LOL He is just blossoming as a social butterfly at only 18 months!

DS does throw fits in public more often than I'd like to admit, but that is what kids do sometimes. If I kept him hidden away at home all the time, we would miss out on the great bonding or learning experiences like last night.

Re: the Swedish couple (some more details)
It was lunch time. The restaurant was brightly lit. It is a family restaurant. I think the couple was visiting family that lives here. There appeared to be several tables of people that were family or friends of the couple, and they were all keeping an eye on the kid. The child didn't get into any trouble, he was just walking around. It was not crowded. I think he was at least three, maybe four. It is hard for me to judge kids' ages, because my own son is huge for his age. I really don't think the kid was in any danger.


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## Greenie (Sep 27, 2005)

I have to say, I think that there are situations where bringing children isn't the best idea. I think that as a non-mom, I don't like listening to a baby screaming in the grocery store, or a toddler throwing a temper tantrum in the middle of dinner. And if I was wearing my special jacket to a date with my hubby, and someone else's child made a mess of it, I'd be pretty PO'd. They should have AT LEAST offered to pay the dry cleaning bill!!









I understand that when motherhood starts, life doesn't stop. It's just different. But, I am trying my best to remember that not everyone has children, and enjoys kids. Not everyone should have to put up with misbehaving children when they are paying good money to eat in an expensive restaurant, or watch an adult movie, or have a girl's night out. If there is a 'No Children' policy, then by golly, parents should respect it.

But, on the other hand, I think kids are awsome. I work with kids at my job, and I make a point to talk to them, on their level, and include them in what I'm doing if they seem interested.

I agree the most though, with all of the PP's who say that if the child isn't going to enjoy it (Adult movies, fancy restaurants, etc.) don't bring them. I think that parents deserve some time without the kids, because after all, you are adults, and you deserve some adult time.

Kids should not have to live a secret unseen life, but I think that common since needs to be practiced. If you have a fussy baby, find a sitter or stay home until their mood improves. Don't drag them into public where you, your baby, and the people around you are all going to be miserable.

I've been scoping out the restaruants with child friendly fare and play areas. Those are the ones that we'll frequent. But, on 'date night' I want to enjoy my 'adult time'.








Good job on a great discussion, though! Gotta eat something!


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greenie*
I have to say, I think that there are situations where bringing children isn't the best idea. I think that as a non-mom, I don't like listening to a baby screaming in the grocery store, or a toddler throwing a temper tantrum in the middle of dinner.

I have never understood this attitude. My only thought (even before parenthood) when I here a screaming baby or toddler throwing a temper tantrum is one of sympathy (for both child and parent). However, I am much less tolerant of obnoxious adults in public, but I can't think of a way to tell them to stay home.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greenie*
I have to say, I think that there are situations where bringing children isn't the best idea. I think that as a non-mom, I don't like listening to a baby screaming in the grocery store, or a toddler throwing a temper tantrum in the middle of dinner. And if I was wearing my special jacket to a date with my hubby, and someone else's child made a mess of it, I'd be pretty PO'd. They should have AT LEAST offered to pay the dry cleaning bill!!









I

Hi Carrie

I read your post and then was a little surprised by your first paragraph - until I realized you are not a mom yet. I kind of understand why someone without kids might feel annoyed it is hard for people without kids to truly understand that getting a sitter EVERY time you need to do have normal life activities just isn't always realistic. One can't possibly expect to have a sitter available every time one goes to a grocery store, a bank, or go out eating in restaurants that don't have playgrounds or serve fast food...

I have 4 kids and always take at least 2 of them (the oldest go to school half day) everywhere that is not explicitaly "child-free" because I have to go places. and if the kids are home, I can't just NOT go out...DH and I enjoy eating out but we HATE child oriented restaurants like McDonalds etc, so we take them out with us to places that don't say anything about kids not being welcome. Of course, we make sure to teach our kids how people are expected to behave in a restaurant, but since it is hard for out 2yo to do that, we make sure to take him out on a little walk if he is having a hard time









Yes, babies will cry in the most incovenient situations and that's just life - there is nothing you can do to predict or prevent that. And toddlers will get grumpy sometimes too.

Luckily, in 7 years, I have only heard complaining about my babies crying twice. Both times though, the people complaining received reproving looks from old ladies around









Before I had kids and knew better, I always said my kids would never have buggars running down their noses, would never get dirty in public and would never throw tantrums. OMG - did I learn my lesson









I have lived in the US for 4 years, and I am still not used to fact you don't see kids everywhere. Where do moms leave their kids?? In Denmark kids are seen EVERYWHERE with their parents and almost every public place is made with the idea that people will bring their kids in mind (from buses to restaurants and shopping malls). It is like a big Ikea everywhere


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eldadeedlit*
Wow well I'd love not to take the kids to my doctor's appointments but unfortunately most of the time that is just not an option. I sure hope people don't think I'm being "rude" when I bring them. I just don't have a babysitter.

As far as the grocery store, post office, etc., go, I've never gotten a dirty look or anything. I can't imagine why anybody would think there was anything wrong with bringing kids along when you do chores. It seems like the only practical thing to do.

Well, I have to agree with this. I was going to say that maybe this was a regional issue, maybe more urban areas are less accepting of children. Because we've taken our kids EVERYWHERE. We've even had to take them places that weren't very fun for them, like the title company at 8:00 a.m. because no one would watch them and we both had to sign. I figured this was okay because they had a whole box of kiddie goodies there, so at least we weren't the first ones who had done that.

As far as a restaurant, I would definitely leave too if my child were having a fit and not having fun. Not just for them, but for my own selfish reasons, too. It's not like it's very fun to try and placate an unhappy toddler in a crowded, loud place. I would much more enjoy the food out of a box in my own living room.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brisen*







I just went and googled Norway climate. I thought it had a long, cold, snowy winter. It seems I'm wrong. I think I would move anyway. The montly average temps were below 20 C and above -10 C on one chart I found. Is it very rainy? I like the look of a nice blue sky, but don't much care for being *in* the sun, lol. The long summer days/short winter days would be difficult, though. We do have a bit of that here, but not nearly that much. I think the longest days of daylight we get are 15 hours, not 18 hours, and then 9 hours of daylight in the winter. I hate trying to get the kids to bed at a decent time in the summer! Waking up to starry skies in the winter is lovely, though.

And I *love* fish. (I googled Norway food just to make sure I wasn't mistaken again, and I'm drooling now.)

Hi!

Norway is a very, very LONG country, so the weather varies alot, depending on where you live.

Down south the winters are pretty mild. Snow for a few months, maybe.
Up north, the winter is longer, and very often colder.

The westside of Norway is rainy. Very.









What I dislike the most, is the darkness. Right now it gets dark around 4 PM!!

If you live longer up north (I live more or less in the middle of Norway) the darkness is total now. They have no sun for several months during winter...

Come on over!


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Hi Mommas,

While I agree that it might not be a good idea to bring a small child to a fancy restaurant or a quiet coffee shoppe for safety reasons and to keep the atmosphere relaxed and quiet for the older people who are using it, I don't understand the attitude that children shouldn't be brought to post offices or grocery stores, or any of the other "every day" utility-type places.

If a child/baby is screaming and crying in a grocery store, I feel badly for him or her, and/or I feel badly for the mother having to deal with the situation. It's just normal for children to be shopping for their food with their parents, same goes for the bank, the post office, the pet store, the pharmacy, etc. That's part of life every single day.

I do understand some points of view about the restaurant issue, though. If it's a fancier restaurant and the parents don't remove an upset child from the situation, it stinks for everyone involved. If you want to TRY to have supper with your children there with you, then, okay. I'm sure there are some small children who can handle a restaurant, and if they can, that's GREAT. It's the "Isn't it cute how Jenny is verbalising everything in screeches for ten minutes?!" attitude from some parents that drives the other people there nuts. No, it's not cute. Children talking at a conversational level and eating, and colouring and playing with a favourite toy and, and, and are cute.

But: throwing food and screaming and running aren't acceptable things to do in restaurants, it disturbs people during their meals and celebrations and it could be a danger for the servers or the children if they are scampering around. Adults are expected to behave a certain way in restaurants, and, we're trying to raise children to be responsible adults, so, it makes sense that we expect a certain level of behaviour from children if they are going to remain in the situations.


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## starlein26 (Apr 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TurtleMom*
... kids should get to be part of all the usual activities of daily life. I wish more things...were set up for that or at least expecting it as normal.

we are hopefully recreating normal! i LOVE hanging out with ds. the few (and i mean like 3-4) times that i haven't been with ds i totally miss him like crazy. he's so fun and funny to be with. we bring him everywhere and he loves it too!


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CrunchyTamara*
Down south the winters are pretty mild. Snow for a few months, maybe.
Up north, the winter is longer, and very often colder.

The westside of Norway is rainy. Very.









What I dislike the most, is the darkness. Right now it gets dark around 4 PM!!

If you live longer up north (I live more or less in the middle of Norway) the darkness is total now. They have no sun for several months during winter...

What's funny is, I'm in Canada, and you just pretty much described this country, too.







So much for moving. The west coast is very rainy... I'm about as far south as you can get in Canada, and the winters are mild, and we have snow from about mid-Dec to March (some into April), but winters are longer and colder up north. They have the "midnight sun" up north too. I'm further south than Norway, our earliest sunsets are around 5pm, I believe, and that would be in Jan.

We're not as child-friendly, though. That would be a big incentive to move. Dh has always wanted to spend some time living and working outside of Canada, but I don't know if I could convice him to go someplace like Norway. So far the places he has seriously looked at have been Florida and the Middle East. I'm guessing he wants to go somewhere warm....


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## Greenie (Sep 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momoffour*
I have never understood this attitude. My only thought (even before parenthood) when I here a screaming baby or toddler throwing a temper tantrum is one of sympathy (for both child and parent). However, I am much less tolerant of obnoxious adults in public, but I can't think of a way to tell them to stay home.

I agree there. I am not saying that they should stay home from all public places!! I think it is ridiculous to think that all parents should leave their children locked away at home. I loved going places when I was little. I think there was a misumderstanding in the wording of my post--

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greenie*
I understand that when motherhood starts, life doesn't stop. It's just different. But, I am trying my best to remember that not everyone has children, and enjoys kids. Not everyone should have to put up with misbehaving children when they are paying good money to eat in an expensive restaurant, or watch an adult movie, or have a girl's night out. If there is a 'No Children' policy, then by golly, parents should respect it.

I meant that 'Not everyone should have to put up with misbehaving children when they are paying good money to eat in an expensive restaurant, or watch an adult movie, or have a girl's night out.' Those are really the only places that I don't think children should go, and in those adult situations, they're probably bored, anyway.

It's just my opinion because, I guess, I've never been around kids. I just am not used to crying toddlers. I know that things will change soon, and I do feel bad for the parent.. I don't even really take a considerable amount of notice unless the parent is being unreasonable.

The main 'baby crying in a grocery store' incident involved a little tiny todler girl who was upset, and the lady with her just ignored her. Didn't try to talk to her, take her outside, anything!! The child was screaming the whole time we were in line to pay for our groceries, and when we were being rung up, and when we were paying. It felt like an eternity, and I felt really bad for the child.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polihaupt*
I read your post and then was a little surprised by your first paragraph - until I realized you are not a mom yet. I kind of understand why someone without kids might feel annoyed it is hard for people without kids to truly understand that getting a sitter EVERY time you need to do have normal life activities just isn't always realistic. One can't possibly expect to have a sitter available every time one goes to a grocery store, a bank, or go out eating in restaurants that don't have playgrounds or serve fast food...

I can absolutley understand!! My mother usually just left my little brothers in my care anytime she needed to go somewhere. I was the 'free sitter'.







: Still don't like that she just dumped them on me 7 days a week, all day long.

I know that kids have to be in public. I think that they should be in places, learning to be around people and interact is a very important part of develpoment.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polihaupt*
DH and I enjoy eating out but we HATE child oriented restaurants like McDonalds etc, so we take them out with us to places that don't say anything about kids not being welcome. Of course, we make sure to teach our kids how people are expected to behave in a restaurant, but since it is hard for out 2yo to do that, we make sure to take him out on a little walk if he is having a hard time

I would never take a child to a fast food place. I'd go to Subway, at least! All I have ever expected was that those who bring their children make sure that they're acting apropriatly. If your child is upset, take them to the bathroom, or outside, or something. Have some coloring books and toys for them. That's all I expect.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty*
While I agree that it might not be a good idea to bring a small child to a fancy restaurant or a quiet coffee shoppe for safety reasons and to keep the atmosphere relaxed and quiet for the older people who are using it, I don't understand the attitude that children shouldn't be brought to post offices or grocery stores, or any of the other "every day" utility-type places.

This says it best!

If I come off as weird, just remember. The preggo hormones are surging!


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

Quote:

If a vegetarian eats vegetables, what does a humanitarian eat?















:


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Just wanted to say that I thought of this thread yesterday...we had an "energy audit" scheduled with the utility company (they offer a big rebate on air conditioner servicing if you do this). Of course I was at home with my 21mo daughter. The technician made me feel about 6 inches high when my daughter needed my attention while we were talking. She literally rolled her eyes and looked at her watch. On the way out I apologized for the "toddlerness" (she WAS having a difficult day) and the tech said, "Well, I guess it's better than having three dogs yipping around my legs." Uh....thanks.

Really, I can't express how crappy this made me feel, and mad, too. I think she really thought it was awful and unacceptable that my child was present for this process. Uh...your appointments are during business hours during the week. What was I SUPPOSED to do with her?


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
Of course I was at home with my 21mo daughter.

What?!? She thought you should have had a sitter even though the appointment was at your house?!? Sheesh.


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## babybugmama (Apr 7, 2003)

loraxc Sometimes people don't get that children _are_ living. That is life...if you choose a job that takes you into people's homes...welllll...

Dd goes everywhere with me. I did decide to have dh care for her while I get a pelvic on monday...not because of her though, b/c I feel a little weird. That's my issue though, not hers and not what I am concerned about by the dr.


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## HappyHSer (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:

Of course I was at home with my 21mo daughter. The technician made me feel about 6 inches high when my daughter needed my attention while we were talking. She literally rolled her eyes and looked at her watch. On the way out I apologized for the "toddlerness" (she WAS having a difficult day) and the tech said, "Well, I guess it's better than having three dogs yipping around my legs." Uh....thanks.

Really, I can't express how crappy this made me feel, and mad, too. I think she really thought it was awful and unacceptable that my child was present for this process. Uh...your appointments are during business hours during the week. What was I SUPPOSED to do with her?
Please call the company in question and register a report. Her behavior, comments and demeanor were unprofessional and her expectations unrealistic.

I ran an in home daycare, and fortunately, never had anyone who came to assist in that capacity (plumber, exterminator, etc) react that way.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greenie*
I meant that 'Not everyone should have to put up with misbehaving children when they are paying good money to eat in an expensive restaurant, or watch an adult movie, or have a girl's night out.' Those are really the only places that I don't think children should go, and in those adult situations, they're probably bored, anyway.

Not everyone should have to put up with crabby old people when they are paying good money to eat in an expensive restaurant, or watch a movie, or have a girl's night out. Those are really the only places that I don't think the elderly should go, and in those situations, they're probably bored, anyway.

Lots of people don't like old people. They get crabby and have short attention spans. You should leave them in the old folks home. They have more fun there anyway!

For me It's all about what the child would enjoy. Children are human beings not something unpleasant that society has to "put up with." I think children have every right to be in an expensive restaurant. Would I take my child out if they were disturbing others? Of course! I would also make my husband leave if he were disturbing others.


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## whittycla (Jun 1, 2005)

I agree that you should be able to take your children anywhere and that they should see normal life, but then again some places are difficult for children (I'm now thinking a toddler) to be in, because our culture is so child unfriendly.

How is this different from babyproofing the house to avoid dangers and conflicts that are not necessary until they are developmentally able to understand things that are dangerous (poisons, fire, and so on)?

I'm personally thinking of the nightmares I've had in supermarkets, having tried every trick in the book (morning visits, every distraction etc) with my dd.

Personally I think if its going to be hard on the child, and its avoidable, I'll avoid it. I've seen screaming children bored rigid trying to squirm out of buggies in overheated shops being told off by they parents for not being still. In my book thats unfair on the child. Of course in real life things happen we cannot control so we end up in some horrible situation, and in real life we are not perfect parents.

For the record I regularly take my children on the bus, train, and out and about everywhere and we often eat out, but I try to avoid situations I know are likely to be difficult where I can. My children are very young - 2.5 and 16 weeks. Its probably a different set of issues as they get older.

thanks
sarah


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

I bring my DD pretty much everywhere, except when my DH and I go on date nights.

I drop her off at the inlaws so we can go for dinner and a movie and have an evening child free so we both have a few drinks before retiring. He can't drink when she's at home because he's the one with the lisence...if something goes wrong...you get the idea.

She's wonderful at restraunts. Sure she doesn't EAT half the time but that's what doggy bags are for. But I wouldn't make my 2yo sit in a theater. So I dont take her. Also the movies we like to watch aren't really appropriate for her anyway *Alien vs Preditor, Devils Rejects..you get the idea..BAD mojo for a toddler*

Heck I questioned it when Lord of the Rings came out and people were taking their toddlers. NOT because of the fact it was a movie theater, but because LOTR IS NOT AGE APPROPRIATE for anyone under the age of 10 IMO. It's violent, scary..and no kid can grasp something like that...I bet those poor bubs were having night terrors about the ringwraiths for months....









Sure I can see taking a child to a child friendly movie...but parents need to use their brains about content discretion...

But yeah, every day things, banking, grocery shopping, stuff like that, people shouldn't crap on you for taking your kid. stuff's gotta be done. What is someone supposed to do STARVE?

But yeah, do whatever you wanna do with your kid, but make sure it's age appropriate.

If you like the Opera, fine, but at least arrange a sitter beforehand because MOST toddlers wont be able to sit still through it, because it's not age appropriate, and why waste your ticket admission if you have to get up and leave anyway?

ETA: that's why there are things that are dubbed "Adult" things. Not because they are diliberately made to exclude children, but they are just not AGE APPROPRIATE activities to expect young children to put up with, but Adults ENJOY. It isn't fair to the kid to drag them with, and it isn't fair to the ADULT either to give it up totally. Hence why a babysitter is a good idea.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
ETA: that's why there are things that are dubbed "Adult" things. Not because they are diliberately made to exclude children, but they are just not AGE APPROPRIATE activities to expect young children to put up with, but Adults ENJOY. It isn't fair to the kid to drag them with, and it isn't fair to the ADULT either to give it up totally. Hence why a babysitter is a good idea.

Right. I don't think anyone is advocating dragging children anywhere against their will. My problem is with the "not everyone should have to put up with children" attitude.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

:


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

You have a point. It is a crappy attitude. But the onus is on the parents for forcing the kids to be in an age UN-Appropriate situation. That's where I would acctually go up and say something.

seriously. If I pay out the nose for an Andrew Lloydd Webber musical ticket, and someone brings a rowdy toddler to the show, I would get upset and probably grumble. It isn't fair to the child, and it isn't fair to the other people who paid out the freeking nose for the tickets to have their show disrupted.

Common courtosey. That's all it's really called.


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## HappyHSer (Nov 1, 2005)

Pandora, I agree almost totally with your sensible post.

Except for this:

Quote:

but because LOTR IS NOT AGE APPROPRIATE for anyone under the age of 10 IMO. It's violent, scary..and no kid can grasp something like that...I bet those poor bubs were having night terrors about the ringwraiths for months....
2 of my 3 saw the LOTR movies under the age of 10. I trust my ability to judge their readiness. And also assist them with preparation, processing and context.

I don't disagree that they can be inappropriate for some children. I just disagree with the across the board age 10 designation.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Well I'm talking about toddlers. I saw kids under the age of 4 being dragged into seeing LOTR with their parents. Now that's a bit too young don't you think? and as I said that the 10 was an IMO * O standing for Opinion, not Ovulation* statement. Some kids can grasp it before then some kids can't.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

OK, here's my 2 cents on the topic.

I don't care if you're 5 or 50, it irks me to no end when people are disruptive and inconsiderate of others out in public. Common courtesy and respect for others seems to be a rare commodity. Honestly, I never find fault with kids that are wild out in public (and I'm not talking about normal tantrums, or feisty behaviors, I'm talking about seriously aggressive and/or disruptive behavior), I am upset with the parents for not caring enough to teach their children how their actions affect others.

Adults who are rowdy and inconsiderate in public irritate me. Children who are rowdy and inconsiderate in public make me wish their parents would teach them a little bit about respect for themselves and others.

I just hate that so many adults don't give a fig about other people or their desire to enjoy public outings, and don't try to teach their children to respect themselves and others, so their kids are as inconsiderate as they are.

For me, it doesn't come down to whether or not kids "should" be out in public at place x or place y....it's about the parents being considerate of the other people wherever they are so that if their child is having an off day, or is dirsupting the atmosphere, that they care enough about the other people out and about trying to enjoy themselves that they will leave....I have left restaurants a couple times with my DS in tow when he just wasn't up for being out, because to me it's not fair for the other patrons to have to handle his unhappiness...but I have enjoyed restaurant outings with him as well, when he's up to it, and nearby patrons have delighted in him. I have taken DS to secluded corners of stores to work through a tantrum because to me it's not fair for the other shoppers to have to listen to it....but I have had many, many more wonderful trips with him where he flirts with anyone in sight and we have a great time. I am not angry about the times I leave or go to a more private area to let DS work through a tantrum, or about DS being unhappy or tantruming - I support him expressing his emotions and am teaching him appropriate ways to do so as he grows and learns. For me it's just part of being considerate of the other people I am around when we're out in public...until DS is old enough to have self control and understand that there is a time and place for everything, including times and places to be calm and courteous, I will be considerate for him, and considerate of others around me who are just out trying to have a good time.

Unfortunately, I don't think that is a prevailing attitude in the US (I am NOT suggesting this about anyone in particular on this thread, it's just a general statement). It seems that the prevailing attitude is that you should do whatever you want, whenever and wherever you want, and that just really bothers me...it bothers me that people don't care enough about other people to see if others are uncomfortable.

I'm not looking for a Stepford society (believe me, I can be as goofy and silly as the next guy, play hide and seek with shopping carts and sing silly songs with DS out in public, so I'm not prissy or anything), just a little common courtesy if someone is disrupting the enjoyment of others (whether adult or child) ...I have no problem with tantrums or meltdowns, or kids being silly, inquisitive and spunky, I just have a problem with aggressive and disruptive behavior, from children OR from adults...but I never "blame" the child, I feel sad for the child and upset with the parent.

To me, the issue when a child is disruptive in public is not with the child, but that the parents is not teaching or modeling to their children the value of commnity, respect for themselves, responsibility, and caring for others.

OK, so maybe that was more like my 2 dollars' worth







I know some will disagree with me, but that's the beauty of an opinion. Everyone has one!!


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## HappyHSer (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:

I have no problem with tantrums or meltdowns, or kids being silly, inquisitive and spunky, I just have a problem with aggressive and disruptive behavior, from children OR from adults...but I never "blame" the child, I feel sad for the child and upset with the parent.
Great post. I agree with you. I'll add that I find allowing even a newborn or infant to cry unresponded to is rude. Yes, I expect babies to be out and about. And, yes, I expect them to cry.

But allowing them to cry without responding to them might be a parenting philosophy - it's also a rude decision on the part of the parents.

If a parent believes in some form of CIO, I think they need to confine that to private situations.


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## Greenie (Sep 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momoffour*
Not everyone should have to put up with crabby old people when they are paying good money to eat in an expensive restaurant, or watch a movie, or have a girl's night out. Those are really the only places that I don't think the elderly should go, and in those situations, they're probably bored, anyway.

I don't think you are understanding what I'm saying. I've explained what I mean, you're taking it the wrong way. I'm speaking as someone who isn't a parent yet. I thought that since most of the members are Mothers, it might be nice to get a different point of view. I'm not age discriminating. I'm not saying that children are something to be put up with.

BUT, in these situations, where the mom was at dinner and got pasta thrown at her, that's a situation where you are putting up with unacceptable behavior. Bringing a nursing baby to an event that was known to be 'NO ONE UNDER 12' is unacceptable. If I'm going to pay $40 for my dinner, and it's later in the evening, and it's not a restaurant geared torwards children (I mean, doesn't even have a comprehensive Children's Menu), I don't want to hear loud misbehaving children.

If the kids are cool, and acting appropriate for the situation (I.E. Enjoying their dinner, playing quietly and coloring in their notebook) I have NO PROBLEM!

My problem is with parents who drag their cranky baby out at night when the child obviously wants to be in the safety and quiet of their own home. Children are people, and should not be 'seen and not heard'. I work in a toy store, for crying out loud!

The ONLY point that I was trying to make, was that there are certain situations where leaving your children at home is preferable.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
That's why there are things that are dubbed "Adult" things. Not because they are diliberately made to exclude children, but they are just not AGE APPROPRIATE activities to expect young children to put up with, but Adults ENJOY. It isn't fair to the kid to drag them with, and it isn't fair to the ADULT either to give it up totally. Hence why a babysitter is a good idea.

This is all that I was trying to say.


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## Greenie (Sep 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *QueenOfThePride*














:

Thanks!! I like it too!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *HappyHSer*
Please call the company in question and register a report. Her behavior, comments and demeanor were unprofessional and her expectations unrealistic.

I agree here!! You need to let the company know. Loraxc, you shouldn't have to put up with this kind of behavior. Maybe they can give you a break on your bill or something.


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## Greenie (Sep 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *donosmommy04*
For me, it doesn't come down to whether or not kids "should" be out in public at place x or place y....it's about the parents being considerate of the other people wherever they are so that if their child is having an off day, or is dirsupting the atmosphere, that they care enough about the other people out and about trying to enjoy themselves that they will leave....I have left restaurants a couple times with my DS in tow when he just wasn't up for being out, because to me it's not fair for the other patrons to have to handle his unhappiness...but I have enjoyed restaurant outings with him as well, when he's up to it, and nearby patrons have delighted in him. I have taken DS to secluded corners of stores to work through a tantrum because to me it's not fair for the other shoppers to have to listen to it....but I have had many, many more wonderful trips with him where he flirts with anyone in sight and we have a great time. I am not angry about the times I leave or go to a more private area to let DS work through a tantrum, or about DS being unhappy or tantruming - I support him expressing his emotions and am teaching him appropriate ways to do so as he grows and learns. For me it's just part of being considerate of the other people I am around when we're out in public...until DS is old enough to have self control and understand that there is a time and place for everything, including times and places to be calm and courteous, I will be considerate for him, and considerate of others around me who are just out trying to have a good time.





































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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I actually thought about calling, but believe it or not, my husband knows this woman (they both work for the city) and they have friends in common, so I'm unwilling to make waves. Anyway, she didn't really SAY anything (except the dog comment, which you COULD consider a "joke"). It was just her attitude and body language.

As to not responding to a crying child in public...of course I wouldn't have done this with my little baby, but now that I have a toddler we sometimes do find that the best course of action with tantrums is to sit by quietly rather than fussing around hysterically trying to "fix" it. If she does this in a public place, I certainly take her aside as much as I can, but sometimes there isn't a deserted spot.

As for taking cranky babies out at night...well, you never know. We just flew recently, and our flights were horribly delayed, and poor DD was crying and fussing on the shuttle to the airport parking lot. An older woman looked at us and said to her husband, "It's too late for a child that age to be out!" Well...I AGREE...but I didn't have any choice!


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## Greenie (Sep 27, 2005)

Loraxc, I just can't beleive that she would come into your house and act that way. Did she know who your husband is? What a meanie!!

I understand that not every situation has an 'easy out' with small children, and I really applaud that any parent who actively tries. I just remember that lady in the gorcery store IGNORING this child for close to 20 minutes. The girl was probably between 2 and 3, and screaming her little head off, and the lady with her just didn't do ANYTHING. I'm sure she could have taken her outside for a moment, or something.

There are always going to be situations that are unavoidable. I feel bad for anyone travlening with a little one. There's a HUGE difference between a must situation (delayed flights) and an optional one (nice dinner out).

Oh, well, though. I'll probably change my tune once little guy makes his debut!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
As for taking cranky babies out at night...well, you never know. We just flew recently, and our flights were horribly delayed, and poor DD was crying and fussing on the shuttle to the airport parking lot. An older woman looked at us and said to her husband, "It's too late for a child that age to be out!" Well...I AGREE...but I didn't have any choice!

Hey loraxc, regarding your earlier experience in your house, I would have to place that woman from the utility company in the rude and inconsiderate category....she was in YOUR house....ugh. Anyway....on to your other part,m quoted above.

I am sure you were trying to make the best of a lousy situation that was out of your control, and that you were comforting your DD as much as you could in the given situation.....I'm not talking about lousy situations that are out of our control, where all you can do is make the best of it....you can pretty well tell when things like that are going on, and again, that lady who commented is a dolt. My comments were more directed to the day to day things I see happening in various situations where people just don't seem to care if their child (or they themselves) are acting in a way that is disruptive to everyone else around, and they don't seem to care about it at all.


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## jayayenay (Sep 28, 2003)

.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HappyHSer*
Pandora, I agree almost totally with your sensible post.

Except for this:

2 of my 3 saw the LOTR movies under the age of 10. I trust my ability to judge their readiness. And also assist them with preparation, processing and context.

I don't disagree that they can be inappropriate for some children. I just disagree with the across the board age 10 designation.


My 3 year old loves LOTR. But it is true he didnt like it when he was 5 months old and I brought him to the theater in his sling. (too loud).


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