# Keeping Your Own Anger in Check pt. 2



## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

Hello my fellow Anger Hounds (







!

The old thread was getting so long, that I thought I'd start a new one, with a positive report.

For some reason DS (2.5) didnt' take a nap at school the other day. Consequently, he was very, very tired and cranky when I picked him up. I slowly, slowly, slowly transitioned him into the car and headed off to pick up DH (and we were late). By the time we got there, DS was asleep in the carseat. We decided to leave him in it and let him nap for a little bit while we got dinner ready. Then DH went to get him. By that time, it was actually a little bit later than dinner and DS had been asleep almost an hour. DH woke him up and DS launched right into a tantrum. NOTHING would calm him down. He really doesn't like to be touched or held when he's really upset







so it gets really hard to deal with him.

DH was getting pretty pissy and DS was screaming, "NOOO!" to every suggestion to have dinner, have something to drink, even to watch a show (our sure-fire way to help him calm down when he's way past melt-down). This went on for 1/2 an hour!! Nothing was working and I knew that the longer it went on, the lower his blood sugar would get. So, I finally went into his room and bear hugged him, quietly explaining (even though I really, really felt like yelling!! - that internal monologue helped so much!!) that he had a choice to eat some food with us or to put on his pjs and go to bed. I just kept ahold of him (not in a hurtful way) and continued to calmly repeat his choices and explain that I thought he was both hungry and tired and that Daddy and Mama really hoped he would calm down and join us for dinner. His first response was to keep screaming and fighting, but eventually I wore him down (so to speak) and he decided to come eat with us. Then I held him through the process of getting food and helped him do a lot of it himself so he could feel in control and it worked!! (Later DH and I had a conversation about making sure we always have snacks in the car so that if there is a no-nap day DS can eat while driving and we can just put him in bed if he falls asleep like that again.)

HERE'S THE BEST PART: The next morning, I had a good conversation with DS about how being hungry and/or thirsty can make you really, really grumpy and that next time you feel that way, you might want to try eating. That evening, after we picked up DH, DS started getting really grumpy (we had run some errands and were late again







) so I reminded him of our morning conversation and offered him a snack. He took it, ate it and then said, "That makes me feel better! 'Cuz I was grumpy and that means I think I was hungry!"























I'm so proud of myself for not losing it during any of this and for helping my little guy find a solution. And I'm SOOO proud of him for helping himself.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

That is a great story!

I've been trying to work hard on keeping a positive internal dialogue going, but I have to admit this week has been tough and I even yelled once - which I hadn't done in weeks.









Lately, my internal dialogue sounds like this























I know that this means I need a break, some "me" time to recharge my batteries so I can be positive and calm. I'm going to try to get some time on Sunday. We'll see.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Hi-
I've been following this thread but only posting here and there. It is very helpful for me to read everyone else's trials and tribulations with anger. The positive mental dialogue stuff really DOES work, but does everyone else agree that it is REALLY, REALLY tough? It's like re-training your brain.

I've had a bad week, too, dotcom. Seems to move in waves around here. My anger is usually triggered by DS's sleep issues. Even if I'm not that tired. Like if he doesn't nap, or, like last night, stay up until 11pm.

I even if I can reign it in with DS, I storm around, acting like an immature 13 yo. Trying very hard to change this. Of course, I am married to THE most patient man EVER. Which is GREAT, but makes me question myself a lot.

Hadn't yelled in a while or raised my voice, and this week just BLEW it. Thanks again for this thread.


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Great job, Melina! You should print out your post and tape it to your refrigerator. That way the next time you feel like you are about to snap, you'll have it there to remind you that you can not yell and have things work out well.

My MIL is here this week, so I've been managing pretty well--there's no way I would "lose it" in front of her! :LOL


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Hi! You don't mind if I jump in really late here do you?


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaAllNatural*







Hi! You don't mind if I jump in really late here do you?


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## Pam_and_Abigail (Dec 2, 2002)

Wow I really need this. I am having big issues with anger.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

I just wanted to add a link back to the original thread for anyone new to the discussion.

It had some great suggestions to help manage your anger and stop yelling.


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## DarkHorseMama (Mar 8, 2003)

Hi. My name is DarkHorseMama. And I am a shouter.









I used to yell at DH when we first got married until he put his foot down that under no circumstances was that acceptable behavior and he would have to reassess his marital situation if I continued to yell at him. THAT pulled me up short and while it took a long time of adjusting (and failing) and trying again, I broke the habit of yelling at him. He was extremely patient but firm in that he would not be treated in that manner and to please accord him the respect he deserved.

I try...oh, do I try with my 2½ y.o. DD...but it is so much easier to yell at her because she can't really express herself as eloquently as DH. She does, however, speak from much closer to the heart by crying and saying over and over, "But I love you, mommy! I love you! No shouting!" Makes me feel about this big -> <-









One thing that I am doing whenever I do lose it is to tell DH when he comes home from work what happened. I have told him that I want to keep myself accountable for my actions and that I will not attempt to hide the behavior away from him. Keeping it flushed out in the open is good for my psyche and for the process of trying to quell the storms that cause it in the first place. I don't yell when he is around, so I know there is *something* inside me that can keep that urge in check even when he is not around.

Many of the problems stem from being stressed out about handling all at once a crying newborn (DS is 3 months) and a crying toddler and two dirty diapers and a barking dog....etc. I can handle X amount of things up to a point, but then that last straw gets dropped and I have a Donald Duck tantrum.

I'm trying, mamas! I'm right there with you!


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

DarkHorseMama, I think it's awesome that you are so openly admitting to your issues and owning them! You aren't making excuses. And you admit that you can, when necessary, control those tantrums. Lady, you are half way there!

So my suggestion for a next step would be to listen to your inner voice when your dh is around and you want to lose it. What do you tell yourself that keeps you from yelling? What are you doing differently? Are you feeling the physical symptoms that are always present before the yelling begins and then bringing yourself back from the cliff?


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## FullCream (Mar 24, 2004)

I'm a yeller too. I'm also loud when I'm feeling positive emotions.

I know I'm supposed to be adult and in control, but I often fly off the handle when I'm feeling bad. And then I just feel worse. I yell more when I'm tired and haven't had time to myself in a while (which is frequently).

DH is going away for a conference for 10 days. I'm scared. One way I try to keep the yelling to a minimum is to ring him at work to talk to him about what's going on. I won't be able to do that while he's away. And I also won't have anyone to take over baby/child duty when I'm tired in the evening or through the night.

My self talk at the moment is very negative. I feel mean and hopeless and like all I do is make things worse. It does feel sort of...good to know that I'm not alone in my struggles. I feel like I'm a great parent of babies through to five or six years. I seem to be very bad at being the parent of a seven year old. Or maybe it's because I'm now the parent of two and not one...So many things to ponder. And meanwhile, I keep coming here for inspiration and gradually get more and more tools and confidence. Thank you so much mamas.


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

I'm glad this is still going, even though I haven't checked on it for a couple of weeks. I'll have to go back and read all the other posts on the original and maybe send it to dh, since we're both yellers. At ds & at each other, which really upsets ds and he often tells us "stop yelling everybody!", which is cute but he shouldn't have to do that, or to feel that he needs to do it.

My big problem is drawing the line, what's a firm/stern voice, and what is yelling? I mean, the extreme ends are obvious, but there's a line somewhere in the middle and I just don't know where it is or when I've gone over it.

We have good days and bad days around here, though I try really hard not to yell and I'm trying to get dh not to. He's also a name caller, which I find really awful and I don't know how to get him to stop. He says that he will, he agrees that it's damaging to ds, but the next time he gets annoyed, out comes the names. That, and the comments like "I can't trust you to do X".

Think some of the suggestions in the other thread would help dh with these problems? I know he really wants to stop and feels really horrible for doing them, but he doesn't seem to know how to stop himself.


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## arcenciel (Nov 26, 2001)

I really need this thread!

FullCream, nobody ever told me before I had my second that I would feel anger towards my first DS like I had never felt before. I don't think it helps!

DarkHorseMama, I really like the idea of being accountable to someone else. I don't think DH takes it seriously enough when I tell him how I've been when I lost it but my best friend would probably be horrified enough for me to be put off if I know I have to tell her!

It is such a relief to find this thread after 2.5 years of feeling almost alone - I even saw a a psychologist who told me "it's ok to say no". But it's not ok to say no by losing it with your 3 year old..... Most of the other parents I know either don't lost it the way I do, or think it's ok so I'm really happy to find you all









Thanks for sharing the not so easy stuff too!


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Still with you folks..... Not doing so good on the yelling front this week, & quite honestly DH is not helping right now..... In fact, he's the one who copped it this AM for being a shit with the kids. I ask for his help in getting the kids ready this morning & what does he do? Goes berserk at them, screaming at them to get dressed, you're not watching TV, blah, blah..... yanks DS by the arm up the stairs! left a red mark across his chest!! I come running up the other stairs to see what's going on. DS runs to me, clinging to my legs, crying & screaming 'daddy hurt me'. DH is now grabbing DS (should I really be calling him 'D'H at this point??), yelling at me 'you didn't see it. you always take their side. you make the whole family situation worse.... it's all your fault they're like this.... blah, blah, blah..'

I'm pretty okay with my actions here tho. I stuck up for my son, I said to 'd'h "you're not helping- just go get yourself ready & leave him alone!" shouted it- you bet....

And where was I when all this broke out? Downstairs in the laundry room, scrubbing runny splattered dog crap out of pebblecrete. It took me an hour, when I was supposed to get to work early this morning....... It is these sort of situations where I really need the chill pills. I keep thinking if I had just maintained the calm from the very outset, then maybe 'd'h wouldn't have thought he could go off like that.... but I'm human, & this am was pretty stressful for me.... Far out... I feel like I only tell you guys the bad things, but that's my yelling confessional for the day.....


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## Gemini (Apr 9, 2003)

I finally read through the other thread and am now ready to plunge into this one.

*sigh* I too am a yeller. I think I shall camp out in the Gentle Disipline forum for awhile to shape myself up.

I'll add more later, but just wanted to add myself to the club.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

I am another whose dh is _not_ helping the situation any.


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## Hey Mama! (Dec 27, 2003)

I needed to see this thread tonight. I've lurked on the previous one and have tried the internal dialogue with good success until tonight. I screamed at the top of my lungs at Ainsley to get back to bed. I'm sure the neighbors think I'm a child abuser. I am a yeller, that is how I get my anger out. I know that it's not fair to take it out on my dd though...I'm trying. I really have learned and enjoyed this thread so far, let's keep up the support mamas!


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

aussiemum. Under the circumstances you described, it sounds like you did great! I mean, really, you didn't knock your dh over the head with any large objects, right? So there's a small victory over anger impulse control right there!

I bought some Bach's Rescue Remedy a couple of weeks ago. I haven't used it yet, but it's there in case I feel myself about to go nuts. I don't know if the stuff really works, but I figure that it can't hurt. Just the act of getting it and taking it would probably be enough to diffuse a situation to some degree, right?

I've had a pretty yell-free week because my mil has been visiting all week. She leaves tomorrow, though, and my work has really piled up because of my distractions this past week, so this coming week will be a true test. Please send me any spare patience vibes you have!


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Ok last week was awful, but I'm determined to start fresh this week and try again.

I've been feeling really lost with the whole idea of gentle discipline. I mean I feel like I have no tools that I can use to get my kids to behave when necessary. Does that make sense?

Let me try to explain further. I don't want to spank them. I don't believe in it, have never done it and don't intend to. But, what do you do when your child is really misbehaving and won't stop when you calmly ask or try to redirect their behavior? Yelling, not okay. Time-out? I don't find them effective and then there's all the stuff out there saying time-outs aren't gentle or good for your children either. Bribery? Not okay, right? Coercion, not okay. . .

So what's a mom to do?

Let me give an example: I have a big reclining/rocking chair in my living room. My almost 4 year old likes to stand on it and rock until it flips over. This is not okay for several reasons #1: He could get hurt. #2: It could land on his baby brother and hurt him. #3: It's a piece of furniture in my home and that's not how I expect it to be treated.

I can't get rid of the chair because it's the only way my dh can get the baby down to sleep. My house is so small there is no area of the house it could go in where it would be inaccessible to my child. I can't buy a smaller or more stable rocking chair because we have no money.

So what do I do when he's "riding" the chair like a bucking bronco? So far I take him off it about 10 times a day calmly explaining all of the above-mentioned reasons. Obviously, that isn't working. Since we do this 10 times a day week after week.

What do you do to really get your point across without yelling?


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## Gemini (Apr 9, 2003)

Rockerbabysmom.

Dot, my friend and I were talking about the kids doing things again and again and her advice is just to be consistant. It sounds like you have been for weeks, but just stick to your guns with getting him down, maybe not react negatively (hard next to impossible I know







: )when he continues to do it. Perhaps when he sees he will no longer get a reaction from you and just gets put down he will stop. It's a major long shot, but worth a shot huh? Just reading the situation made my blood pressure go up so I understand the frustration. I guess it's easier to give advice when it isn't you right??

I'm going to try to have today be a yell-free day.







My hubby is working til late tonight, so it'll be a challenge, but I can do it. I am going to talk a walk later after our breakfast settles so they can go play at the playground.


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

Ok Ladies,

I had a repeat of my first post, only this time was better!! DS spent Saturday w/ friends and their DS is a HUGELY physical child - just runs and jumps a plays and basically wears our DS out. We traded time with the parents and the kids spent the evening at our house while the other couple went out. My DS had a total melt down at pj and teeth time and was inconsolable. After finally having to lay him on the floor and hold him down to brush teeth (it had been skipped 3 nights in a row and I just couldn't let it go) I took him into his room and closed the door and told him that it was time to put on pjs and brush teeth so that we could read stories. If he didn't want to do pjs and teeth, we could just put on a diaper and go to sleep. I kept the same calm voice and told him repeatedly that we really wanted him to join us for stories and that I was sure he could calm down and get it under control. Every time he took his tantrum down a notch, I praised him and said he was doing great and that we were getting really close to being able to go read stories and that I knew he was going to be able to get it under control. And he DID!! I was so proud of him and praised the crap out of him for it.

The bad part is that the reason DS was with our friends that day is because DH and I had such a bad fight Friday night (we're both HORRIBLE yellers), that it actually escalated to mild physical violence. The kind of thing that most women swear they will never, ever, ever put up with. Now I'm in a really difficult place trying to figure out what to do and how to move forward. (Please - no advice on this one - the marriage isn't over.) DH is going to anger management and I'm seriously considering following him. I would really, really love to hear what you all do to keep yourself from yelling at others besides your kids!

Dotcom - re: the chair, is there some form of "punishment" you would consider for your DS? I'm thinking that my response would be to explain that if he couldn't mind, and behave like a big boy, then I have to assume he is too little to play with X or to do Y or something like that. I don't know, maybe that's coercion? But I'm thinking that his behavior is illustrating his unwillingness to mind, and I think of that as a little boy thing. Maybe that's too negative. My other thought is, can you let him jump on the bed or something else that's not so dangerous?


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

Well, the last few days were pretty ok. I know for sure I didn't yell at ds at all yesterday (though I may have yelled at dh) I can't remember if I was completely free from yelling for the 2 or 3 days before, but I know that if I did, it wasn't much.

Then there was today. Does anyone else get really grouchy/ill feeling around ovulation or am I just nuts? I swear, it's almost getting worse than PMS. The smallest little thing can set me off. And it really doesn't help when dh gets pissy right back at me. I yelled at him more than ds, but I don't think it's good for ds to see that kind of thing any more than it's good for him to be the recipient.

And the thing that annoys me, is most of the stuff that set me off was just stupid, pissy little things that I normally would barely notice or would just blow off. I wound up having to reassure ds about dh's yelling at him and storming off, so I had a couple of hours where I knew I had to be really gentle because he was already feeling so upset. Why can't I feel that compassionate towards him all the time?

One of the big things, which I'm really upset about, is that I called ds a name. I try very hard that no matter how angry I am, I don't name-call. I know how incredibly hurtful that is, how permanently damaging it can be (I still haven't recovered from the pain of all the insults, mostly about my weight which there was nothing wrong with until I got called names so much, that I received when I was a child) and I often get angry with dh because he has a bad tendancy to name-call when he's angry. I just can't believe did that. I wasn't even really angry at the time, it was more said in an affectionate way, but I know that ds didn't take it that way because of the hurt look he gave me. I felt so bad, I gave him a big hug and told him I was sorry and I shouldn't have said it.

It's just so frustrating, the child freaks out whenever anyone tries to do anything with his hair. Tonight, I decided it had to at least be brushed (it really needs to be cut again, but I know that will be a battle and a half) since he hasn't let me do anything besides wash it in about a month. He started crying before the brush even touched him and I called him a wuss. I feel like such a horrible mommy. The yelling is bad enough, but I don't think I can forgive myself for calling him a name. And I'm really worried I'm going to do it again, since I've been thinking them a lot more lately. I think dh's bad example may be rubbing off. Does anyone have any ideas how I can stop this, now, before it goes any further? And get dh to stop, too.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Absolutely adviceless in the husband/partner department.









But full of commiseration, as usual....

I'm thinking on this one... thinking about DCM's chair problem, thinking about how to get the point across without yelling, thinking about getting name-calling under control before it gets started...... hmmmm.... don't be too hard on yourself Devaskyla, it happens... we all have moments in our parenting we wish we could take back, & being in a difficult family situation doesn't really help matters, does it?? I'm pretty sure I call the kids names (does dilly-pickle count when they do something silly- not in a mean way, but it's still a name right? altho it does make them giggle sometimes), & even tho I can't think of a specific example right this seccy, I'm sure I've said many a nasty thing to DD in the heat of argument.....









If I think of anything, I'll report back. Going home to my messy house & hopefully fed, bathed & in-jammies kids now.......


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## arcenciel (Nov 26, 2001)

I'm on a bad week too. I hate it when I yell when I didn't even feel in a bad mood. I feel fine, I have time to myself and then something tiny happens and I explode. What can you do about that?

Dotcommama, I know what you mean about the chair. I think the thing is that at almost 4 he is old enough to understand that no means no and it's a question of getting the message across. A really useful thing I learnt from "Liberated Parents, Liberated Children" was about expressing positve expectations. My personal interpretation of it is something like: "If you want to stay in the living room then you have to behave properly." - so if he's playing on the chair that is not properly and therefore he doesn't get to come in the living room. You can also say things like - "Jumping is for beds" or "climbing is for outside" which tells him where he can do that kind of thing.

Even if the chair wasn't dangerous you have the right to set your own limits. Mine is that my bedroom is not for playing in. They can come in to talk to me if I'm there of for cuddles but as soon as they start jumping around or throwing things I say that's enough and send them out (I used to warn them first, but now they really should know....).

Devaskyla, I'm not good on stopping myself or limits either! But for things like hair I have found that routine helps. For example, I cut their nails once a week on Sundays. So when they complain, I just say, "It's Sunday and we cut nails on Sunday." It's like a fact and we just do it. I don't give random arguments like that for things that aren't important but I'm not going to get into a discussion every time about why we have to do something. It won't necessarily work the first time very well but if you keep doing it regularly (like brushing teeth and other things) then they get that it's just something that has to be done.

Another really good thing that I got from "Liberated Parents, Liberated Children" was that your family depends on your mood for it's whole day. So it is really important to recognise your own limits. So if you told them you would take them to the playground and then you feel too tired, there is no point in taking them to the playground and then yelling at them and spoiling the whole thing. It is better not to go. It's not a trivial changing your mind, it's preventing greater harm later....

As for partners, I don't have any problems yelling at mine because he would just switch off, but any ideas for getting him to behave better with the kids would be welcome! He agrees in theory with all the gentle discipline but when it comes down to it and he has difficulties with our boys he doesn't even feel like he did anything wrong.


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Wow, lots of new messages since I last checked in.

Dot, the chair thing would drive me nuts too. And I agree with others, by age four you have a right to expect him to listen in that situation. I know if it were me I would also be instilling some sort of "punishment" after lots of explaining about how jumping on the chair really damages it, how he could fall and get really, really hurt. Show him with one of his things that he really likes. Ask him how he would feel if you purposefully jumped up and down on his favorite toy.

Melina, no advice, just hugs. Sounds like you are making real progress in the gentle discipline area, though. Catalog each success in a notebook or journal so you can read back over them in tough moments. No great suggestions about the not yelling at others since I don't ever yell at dh. But then we'd have to be willing to actually argue or even communicate on a regular basis for it to escalate to yelling...


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## Suzannah (Nov 19, 2001)

I hate to fight; I hate to yell. I feel like a terrible mother lately (starting just before Mother's Day, ironically) because my fuse with DD is so freakin' short. She just turned 4, and KNOWS what she should/should not be doing, but goes ahead and does the opposite 95% of the time. And, might I add, she saves her crappiest behavior for me (yes, I know I should be flattered, but I'm not).

The whining has started again, and everything is a fight, from going to the park, how long we'll stay, what we'll do while at the park, the particular way that I do something at the park (it's always wrong, and DD gets very frustrated with me, and I get frustrated at her when she is yelling at me to do it differently and I can't understand, so we end up leaving, with me hauling her to the car and her yelling and screaming, "No, Mama! NO!").

I am actually scared about this summer. I am a teacher, and I am planning on taking DD out of her daycare for the whole summer before she starts pre-K. I haven't been full-time at home with her since she was one (I was SAHM for the first year, and only part time WOHM for the second and third), and I don't want the whole summer to be one long arguement. Currently, the only real discipline we use is talking to her about whatever is going on and, when that becomes impossible, having her go into her room to "think about what she wants to do." I physically cannot handle DD standing in front of me, yelling at me; the other day she told me she hated me. She tells me I'm not nice and she won't ever play with me, that she only loves daddy. Yes, she is 4, no, she doesn't actually mean it, but it is REALLY HARD FOR ME TO HEAR (and I have tears in my eyes as I type it!!! WTF is wrong with me!!!). I don't expect her to understand the sacrifices that I make for her; I truly don't. But is really hurts to hear these things from DD; I ask her how she can talk this way to "the bringer of all things good," the last time I said that (total jokingly), she said I hadn't brought her any toys lately so she wasn't my friend.

Okay, I am full-on rambling now, but this thread is what I have been struggling with, and I feel like I am ruining my child. She has a doll that she is CONSTANTLY disciplining; she sends it to its room for not wearing shoes, or says she will "force" the doll into its clothes if the doll doesn't put them on NOW. She also tells the doll that she will "spank [its] butt," a pleasant phrase she brought home from school (we have spanked her a handful of times, but it didn't work and was all about anger so we DO NOT SPANK anymore, although SO threatened her last night with it, which pissed me off). Mind you, we have not done these things to her verbatim, but this is probably her impression of the situations, and isn't that just as bad? I hear how she speaks to her doll and to her friends, and I feel like the best thing I can do for her is to leave and let someone else raise her.

It has been a rough week; sorry for the hijack....


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

May I join in for a bit? I'm working on the anger/yelling thing too. I have 3 kids, ages 4, 2 and 4 months. I've been struggling with the whole internal dialogue stuff, how to control my own emotions and respond to the kids (mainly my 4 year old daughter) with empathy and compassion instead of freaking out. Recently I read two extremely helpful books. One was called Peace Is Every Step (by a buddhist monk) and the other Everyday Blessings: the Inner Work of Mindful Parenting (more or less based in buddhist tradtition). It's a lot of buddhist philoshophy about being aware, being present, having compassion, being aware of my emotions without judging myself and while I cannot describe it all that well, these ideas have helped me more than anything else. If you have some spare time to read







it might be worth a look. If nothing else, it's peaceful reading (at least it was for me). And thank you all for being willing to share your experiences-it's good to know we're not struggling alone. Hugs to all of you!


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaskyla*
It's just so frustrating, the child freaks out whenever anyone tries to do anything with his hair. Tonight, I decided it had to at least be brushed (it really needs to be cut again, but I know that will be a battle and a half) since he hasn't let me do anything besides wash it in about a month. He started crying before the brush even touched him

Devaskyla, I don't know you or your history or your kids, but my daughter has similar issues with regard to clothing. I don't believe she actually has sensory integration disorder, but she is sensory defensive about certain things and for me, learning about sensory defensiveness helped me changed how I viewed behavior like taking her shoes off 10 times before we get out the door or having a tantrum over not having the right socks, or having her hair brushed or (heaven forbid) put in a ponytail so it looks neat. Once I had a different perspective to work with, and some ideas for solutions, it was easier to get through these episodes with a lot less stress, yelling and tears. One good book was The Out of Sync Child. I also like Too Loud, Too Bright, Too Fast, Too tight (though that's really more about adults). There's also The Sensory Sensitive Child. Again, I'm not implying that your son has a disorder, just that for some people even simple things like hairbrushing really does hurt and maybe that's the sort of thing he's dealing with. Just a thought, and I hope you don't mind my piping up. I know how frustrating that sort of thing can be. Take care.


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## Shonahsmom (Mar 23, 2004)

I am a single momma to a 4 yo dd. I just read most of part one of this thread. I am really interested in using the positive inner dialogue.

Due to the extremely abusive relationship I was in with my dd's father, I suffer from post traumatic stress disorder. One of the symptoms of PTSD is irritability and another is extreme sensitivity to noise. Noise and stress can really send me over the edge. And when I go over the edge I yell. Just like everyone hear has expressed, I hate yelling and I feel like a terrible momma when I do.

Its so distressing. I am not using my experience as an excuse, but prior to that relationship I had NEVER yelled at another human being in my life. I screamed at my ex until I had no voice left because I felt so powerless and did not know how else to react to his awful treatment. I guess yelling just became a part of me.

Before having read this post, I was beginning to improve a lot just by working hard to avoid things that are triggers for both dd and me. I started really paying attention to us getting enough rest, staying well nourished and hydrated (we both get really crabby when we are hungry or thirsty). I also made sure to avoid things like going to the grocery store when dd or I are over tired or overstaying at the park or at a play date (ie leaving before dd gets worn out.. not waiting until then and then using that as an excuse to leave.. recipe for disaster).

I also, sparked by counselling, started to really reflect on how I felt when ex yelled at me.. how scary and intimidating that was... how much it hurt my spirit. This reflection, while it made me feel even more guilty than I already did, has helped me to be much more mindful of the impact of my words and actions towards my dd. I mean, when my ex screamed and yelled and stomped around and slammed doors to scare me, its considered verbal abuse. Why isn't it considered the same between a parent and child? I don't want to abuse my child.

So I have drastically improved in the yelling department.

I also keep simple round stickers by the calendar on the wall in the kitchen. After a great day, I put a happy face on the calendar. Bad day.. unhappy face. One unhappy face results in the loss of a priveledge; it changes based on what she is into at the given time. A week of happy faces result in dd getting to choose a small treat, like doughnuts on Sunday morning and a whole lotta praise fom me, telling her how much it helps mommy when she is kind and cooperative. I try to help her realize how much happier our household is, she and I both, when she is behaving well. She dreads those unhappy faces.

Also, when she is doing something she shouldn't I state what she is doing "Shonah, you are standing on chair". If she continues "Shonah, you are standing on a chair. Its dangerous. If you don't sit down, you will need to leave the table and go to your room." If she still persists, "Shonah, I see you are choosing to leave the table and go to your room."

Another awesome momma on MDC recommended this verbal approach. Its been very, very effective. The first few days were tough. She pushed to the "I see you are choosing.." part every time. Since then I rarely get past the first part of stating what she is doing. It takes all of the emotion out of the equation (for the most part) and places the responsibility on her. She understands that it is a choice to behave, cooperate, listen, etc.. and that there is an immediate cause and effect to her choice.

But alas, I still yell. I still slam doors and use hositle body language. But I am working on it everyday. When I slip and I yell at my dd, I am sure to apologize and to admit to her that I was wrong for yelling.

I just don't want her to grow up and hate me. I don't want to one day have a teen ager screaming in my face or worse yet, not talking to me at all.

I am going to use more inner dialogue. Before even reading this, I guess I was using it a bit without really thinking too much about it. I just stop and think "getting angry right now will not help". I've repeated that over and over in my head until I calm down. But I like the idea of taking it further, reminding myself that I am a good mom and that I can handle whatever comes my way.

Anyway, thanks for this thread!!!!


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shonahsmom*
Also, when she is doing something she shouldn't I state what she is doing "Shonah, you are standing on chair". If she continues "Shonah, you are standing on a chair. Its dangerous. If you don't sit down, you will need to leave the table and go to your room." If she still persists, "Shonah, I see you are choosing to leave the table and go to your room."

Thanks I think I'm going to try that approach with the chair issue. I'm also trying to be 100% consistent about removing him from the chair the minute I see him rocking like a nut on it. Sometimes it means I have to put down the crying baby or stop in the middle of helping my oldest read a story, but I know that without consistency none of my attempts at discipline are going to work.

Btw thanks to those who said the chair thing would make you nuts too - at least I know I'm not just an overly mean Mommy.

I also wanted to add a quick







to mmgarda. I know you don't want to get into a discussion about the issues with your dh here, so I'll say no more.

So now I'm going to add my tip for the day:









In my house a lot of my yelling is just me being overwhelmed. I'm doing five things at once and then my kids push a little too far and it's just the straw that breaks the camels back - kwim? Anyway, we've been getting chapter books on tape out of the library. Each day I put them on for the boys in their room and they play quietly and calmly for about 30min - 1 hour while listening to the story. This has been really helpful to me. Some mornings I use the time just to chill out and nurse the baby and read the boards. Other days I use the time to get the house cleaned up while no one is simultaneously destroying it. Anyway, I find it gives me a bit of a break which helps me through out the day - so I thought I'd pass the idea along.


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## arcenciel (Nov 26, 2001)

Suzannah, when I get that kind of reaction from my eldest I totally read it as a need for extra attention. I would guess you'll have a completely different daughter by the end of the summer







Try and chill out and take things slowly in the meantime.

Dotcommama, thanks for the tape idea - it's difficult to find alterbatives to TV that guarantee some peaceful timeout.


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

I can't even begin to tell you how great you all make me feel. I really, really appreciate your support, and I'm saddened that many of us feel less than helped by our DH's. I salute ALL of us for making this very, very important effort to find ways to be more positive in our lives. For me, it's way more challenging than tackling grad school with a baby, that's for sure!

So, here's my support for you now.

DotCom - You aren't crazy at all! In fact, I think that knowing your limits about things is HUGE!! (By the way - your DH's silver is amazing!!!!)

Deva - I TOTALLY get grouchy around ovulation. I am trying really hard to be aware of it, but I'm not very good at tracking my cycles because they've been really inconsistent, always. They're way more regular after pg, though, so that helps. The problem I have is that I can be aware and recognize that I'm ovulating and feeling pissy, but it hasn't translated into helping me stop my actions. And I make a point of telling DH so that he can be aware, too, but it doesn't quite compute. Does anyone have any good PMS/hormone issues therapy suggestions???? (Oh, and I have yet to find a pill I'm even remotely compatible with. Hence, DS.







)

Shonhas - I like the way you put your reminders. I do something similar with DS, but I think I tend to use a coercive tone and need to work on that. Plus, he's only 2.5, so not as good at remembering yet. I'm curious, though, if your DD pushes to the point of "Looks like you've chosen to leave the room," and then immediately stops the behavior, do you still make her leave the room? That's a problem for us because I'm not sure that DS understands the full sense of consequences at this age. LIke in his mind, is he thinking, "but I DID stop!"? In fact, I'm sure he is, because he's said, "I'm not doing it anymore, Mama!!" So then what do you do?

Suzannah - (((((Hugs))))) Oh, it hurts just to read it. I know you know she doesn't mean it, but I send you good thoughts to help bolster that knowledge! (Did that make ANY sense??) Also, my thought about her doll is that she may be playacting the way she is in an effort to feel in control about something. I see my DS doing that kind of imaginitive play when I know he's working through an issue or acting as if he's not happy w/ a parent decision, kwim? Yes, she could be imitating, but she could also just be acting out her emotions. I can vividly remember being angry and frustrated at my mom when I was 4 or 5 and hitting and throwing my beloved baby doll around the room and screaming "BAD GIRL!!" at it. I can't tell you at all why I was mad or what was going on, just that (from hindsight perspective) that I was venting. Maybe your DD is doing something similar?


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Susannah-







Heck, for all of us







. My DD does the 'I hate you/I'm not your friend' thing too. DS is starting to do it too. I just say back to them 'Well, I'm still your mama & I'll always love you' & leave it at that. Trust me, she doesn't really mean it.....

Shonahs mom, I'm also going to have a go with your technique of stating the behaviour & choices to be made.

Here's a funny thought...... you know how we make charts for the kids & they get a priviledge/ lose a priviledge based on behaviour? Well, what do you guys think about a chart for MAMA? As in, each day you make it thru without yelling, you get a sticker, or whatever. Then we get a treat for ourselves (whatever you want to make it really) when we get a week of happy faces.... Dunno, does that sound weird for adults?? I think maybe it might give the kids a visual indication of how mama is working on her own 'nice voice'.


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

The choices suggestion is a great one. I use it succesfully with both my 5-yr-old and my 2-yr-old. It really does take the emotion out of the situation. It gives them choices to make and gives me a clear direction to take the situation instead of it spiralling down into a fight/power struggle. I actually used it twice just tonight, once with each child. We went to my parents' house to eat. At one point the older dd was jumping on the sofa. The first time I just gave her the "Don't do that" look. She continued to do it so I interrupted my conversation with my mom and asked her nicely to stop jumping on Nana's sofa. She did it one more time so I told her that if she did it again we would have to go home. I also added that I hoped we didn't have to do that because I was really looking forward to walking around Nana's yard after supper and looking for blackberries. She knew that I was serious and that I would indeed take her home if she jumped again, and she didn't jump anymore. Someone mentioned consistency earlier, and I think that is SO important.

My 2-yr-old kept standing up in her chair at dinner and I did a similar warning-of-consequences approach. It actually worked! She really likes being given choices and in a sort of warped way that is what I am giving them, right?

Aussiemum, I thought of the same thing about the mama chart when I read the happy and sad face sticker chart. I think it's a great idea! Maybe I'll let my older dd be the one to decide if I get a happy or smiley face at the end of the day...she'd love that!

Lastly, knowing your limits was mentioned. I've always had this issue about children in grocery stores. I don't know why exactly, maybe it's because I'm easily distracted and always end up forgetting something I really need if I go when my children aren't in the best of moods. So I've never allowed my children to walk in the grocery store. They either ride in the cart (we have those cool car-shaped carts here) or we don't go shopping, period. It's never negotiable and we've never had any major grocery store tantrums or events.

Hope we all have anger-free days tomorrow!


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Just thought I'd share my grocery store shopping tip. We play 'train' with the cart & the kids. As in we all get in a line, hands on hips (don't wear loose fitting pants!), & chuga-chuga-choo-choo between 'stops'. Next stop, Wheet-Bix station. Next stop, peanut butter station. And so on..... You do have to make train noises in the supermarket, but it is kinda fun to be a wacky mum somedays! AND, if they haven't behaved reasonably for the day, then I wait til their dad gets home & I go to the store by myself. My kids consider it a treat to go shopping with me....... but, if you know shopping with the littlies put you over the edge, then don't do it! No way!!


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)




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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Just thought I'd share my grocery store shopping tip. We play 'train' with the cart & the kids. As in we all get in a line, hands on hips (don't wear loose fitting pants!), & chuga-chuga-choo-choo between 'stops'. Next stop, Wheet-Bix station. Next stop, peanut butter station. And so on..... You do have to make train noises in the supermarket, but it is kinda fun to be a wacky mum somedays! AND, if they haven't behaved reasonably for the day, then I wait til their dad gets home & I go to the store by myself. My kids consider it a treat to go shopping with me....... but, if you know shopping with the littlies put you over the edge, then don't do it! No way!!


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## Suzannah (Nov 19, 2001)

Thanks so much for everyone's responses; I feel a little better every time I come here!!!

I love the chart idea for Mama; I think I will get myself some stickers, or just let DD draw a smiley/frowny when necessary.

I also like the "I see you are choosing..." It goes along w/my personal philosophy that you always have a choice (maybe a crappy choice, but it's always there!!).

Last night was a bad night, too, but I hope things will get better soon. DD was mean adn wouldn't listen at all, but I held my temper in check until the very end (when I lost it, but we made up before bed). SO and I have discussed ways to discipline her that are more effective, and we have tried everything. Is 4 worse than 3?!


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## Shonahsmom (Mar 23, 2004)

Suzannah,

For me 3 was worse than 4. My dd's behaviour has definitely improved this year.

mmgarda,

Yes, once I have reached the "I see you have chosen X" part, I do carry through even if she stops at that point. I feel the need to follow all the way through once she has made her "choice" since at that point she has had two other opportunites to change her actions. If I let it go once I've warned her twice and stated on the third time that she has made a decision, I doubt this approach would be very effective. If she says "But I did stop" I say something like "Next time I hope you'll remember to stop as soon as I point it out to you".

This is a great thread. Last night at my house was awesome. But night time is usually the smoothest part of the day in my house. Morning is the most likely time that things will get explosive. I swear 3 mornings out of 5 my dd does something that results in me running a few minutes late-which really leads to me running 15-20 minutes late. We do not have a car and we take public transportation. If we don't make the bus I need to take to be on time to work, we usually end up waiting another 20 minutes. I do everything possible in advance to make sure the mornings go smoothly. We pick out clothes and lay them out the night before, along with getting bags packed, lunches ready, etc... but my dd seems to always find something to fixate on that turns into a fit and results in us often missing that bus by literally seconds. It is MADDENING!!! And I wind up soooo angry at her. I swear every morning, the last five minutes are comprised of me yelling my head off to get her to do what she needs to do to get out the door. And its often over such ridiculous stuff. For instance, shoes she loved Saturday, Sunday, and Monday suddenly become terribly undesired on Tuesday as we are walking out the door. Knowing full well that the shoes fit well and are not uncomfortable I tell her its too late to change her mind and that we have to go. This will dissolve very rapidly into her whining, crying, or screaming that she can't walk in said shoes and of course the shoes that she suddenly cannot walk out the door without are nowhere in sight... so I either wind up dragging (practically literally) a screaming child dwon the street to the bus stop to make it on time who proceeds to scream the whole bus ride much to the other commuters' delight or I relent, find the GD shoes she wants, miss my bus and wind up being furious with her, up till and including when I drop her off at pre school. NOT a good way to start the day for either of us. My child never acts like this at any other time other than the mornings when we are trying to get out the door.

I know she get enough rest (she rises on her own a good hour before we leave). We have really good talks about it during nice quiet times and she says she understands when I explain how important it is for her to be cooperative in the mornings, etc...

I know it sucks for her to have to be up and out of the house 5 days a week. It sucks for me too. I am entirely sympathetic to that. Fact of the matter is, I've gotta work. Period. And I need to be on time to work. I don't know how to eliminate this from our routine. It has gottne better. I swear when she was 3 it was EVERY morning. Now we have good days and bad days, good weeks and bad weeks... but I really wish it would become a much rarer occurance. Any suggestions?


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## arcenciel (Nov 26, 2001)

Shonahsmom - I have no solutions for you, but I did read a story once about a Mom in a similar situation - DD always made her late in the mornings and she got really stressed out about it - her friend told her "I think you're so lucky because my DD steps out of line". So just remember you're bringing up an "independant" human being and it's not easy







I really admire you using public transport. That's not an option for me and I still end up yelling most mornings because I get stressed about being on time, even though it's not that important.

My mom gave me a "Memo from Your Child" and one of the things it says is: "Don't be too upset when sometimes I say 'I hate you'. It isn't you I hate but your power over me."

I think it's something they all say some time or other.


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

This is usually the worst time in our house, too. I can't speak to how to deal with an older child, but I can say that for my 2.5 year old, it's really obvious that he's using stalling tactics to try to keep us with him longer. Today, he actually voiced his desires. "NOOOO! I don't WANNA go to school! I wanna stay HOME! I want you to stay with me!" Oh baby, man I would like nothing better today, but I have to work. I worked really, really hard this morning on maintaining a calm and soothing tone and used the choice/consequence thing earlier mentioned. He wouldn't brush his teeth and so Daddy wound up having to do it for him.

However, I'm sure he's picking up on all the sh** between Daddy and Mama (he crawled into my bed around 3 AM; Daddy is sleeping in the living room these days) and I know it's bothering him. I had a talk with my husband last night about being aware of it and making every possible effort to be patient and loving and reassuring towards DS right now. He agreed, but his choice offerings this morning were all done in a very frustrated, you-don't-really-have-a-choice kind of way this morning. Several times I stepped in to try to help the situation stay calm and finally DH bit my head off. I understand his frustration, but I hate that he's not looking at it from the poor child's point of view. If I hadn't bi*ched him out here, I'd tell him to read this thread. As it is, I'm sending him to the previous one.

Anyway, back to the morning thing.

Shonah - I don't know if you already do this, but would it be possible to build an extra 10 minutes into your mornings specifically to give your DD time to change her mind about something. Maybe you could plan it out together. I'm thinking something like this: "Shonah, we have 10 minutes before we need to be out the door. I know that sometimes you like to change your mind about what you're wearing/taking with you/eating. I'll set a timer for 5 minutes and you can use that time to think if there's anything you want to change. When it rings, then you'll have 5 minutes to make your change. After that, we're out the door, no matter what." That would be too complicated for my little guy, but I'm wondering if it will work for you and your DD? Also, IO'm working really hard right now on trying to catch every single, tiny little positive thing and praising my son for it and using it as a springboard for the next thing. "You did such a good job cooperating on getting dressed this morning! Thank you so much! I bet you can do an even BETTER job with your teeth, don't you think?" It's exhausting, but not as much as the fights are!


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

Grrrrr. I swear, I never lost a post on MDC until they changed the formats. Now I lose at least one a day.

Ah well, it wasn't that great. Oh! Maybe I copied it. Hang on.

Nope. Darn.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shonahsmom*
Any suggestions?

Sure, but no guarantees :LOL

Have you tried having her help you at night pick out what she will wear the following day? Underwear, socks, shoes, & clothes the whole bit and then explain once she's agreed at night there will be no time to change her mind. I agree that she's doing it because she wants you to be late and get more time with you. So I would just be firm and never give in (I know, easier said than done) and just make her wear what she has on. If you never give in and she doesn't get to make you late then there will be no incentive to throw the fit in the first place.

As for me, I had one issue to day - I remained calm, but still feel like I'm lacking in being effective at teaching my child to behave.

Here is today's issue. We were leaving a playdate and we had some cantaloupe left over in a Tupperware dish. DS (almost 4) asks if he can eat the rest in the car. I say yes, but explain that he needs to be careful because there is a lot of juice in the bottom and I don't want it spilled in the car. So, he eats it fine and then when we pull in the driveway he tips the entire thing in his lap - on purpose. Stick juice is now all over him, his clothes, his car seat and the car. So I wanted to yell, but I didn't. I said, "I'm really angry right now that you made a mess in the car. Walk in the house and climb into the tub to be cleaned up or I won't take you out to play."

He did it and we got cleaned up. But do you think that was a good consequence? I mean I cleaned him up - that's it. I felt I should make some sort of punishment, but I couldn't think of anything related that would make sense.

Hmmmm. What would you have done?


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Dotcommama, how are you so certain that he did it on purpose? Seems like it could have happened for a variety of reasons, most of which I would characterize as careless rather than deliberate. And I don't think you can really discipline out carelessness, at least not at this age. This is one of those things that I would let go on the "choose your battles" logic. Or I might have had him help me clean up (do the laundry, ect.).

OK, so here's what's driving me over the edge lately. My 4 YO DS is constantly have mini-tantrums (cries, whines, flaps his hands) every time his 15 mo. old sister touches his stuff or shared stuff that they are both trying to play with. The rule of the house is that I will keep her out of his room and anything in there is safe, but if its out in the rest of the house, he has to share. Which seemed reasonable to me. But I still get this almost constant barrage of whiney, cry-y stuff and it drives me over the edge. So generally by the end of the day I'm snapping at him. Not yelling exactly, but not very patient either. Taking stuff away doesn't seem fair because half the time its her stuff that he's playing with and she only wants to share. Often he is upset because he's worried about her safety (or so he says), so I feel badly about getting angry. But it still drives me nuts.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
Dotcommama, how are you so certain that he did it on purpose? Seems like it could have happened for a variety of reasons, most of which I would characterize as careless rather than deliberate. And I don't think you can really discipline out carelessness, at least not at this age. This is one of those things that I would let go on the "choose your battles" logic. Or I might have had him help me clean up (do the laundry, ect.).

Well I opend the car door to get him out and he smirked at me and dumped it in his lap - laughing. I'd say that was on purpose.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
OK, so here's what's driving me over the edge lately. My 4 YO DS is constantly have mini-tantrums (cries, whines, flaps his hands) every time his 15 mo. old sister touches his stuff or shared stuff that they are both trying to play with. The rule of the house is that I will keep her out of his room and anything in there is safe, but if its out in the rest of the house, he has to share. Which seemed reasonable to me. But I still get this almost constant barrage of whiney, cry-y stuff and it drives me over the edge. So generally by the end of the day I'm snapping at him. Not yelling exactly, but not very patient either. Taking stuff away doesn't seem fair because half the time its her stuff that he's playing with and she only wants to share. Often he is upset because he's worried about her safety (or so he says), so I feel badly about getting angry. But it still drives me nuts.

We have this issue too - no answer, just sympathy.


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

Ok, here was my suggestion to Shonahsmom

I was wondering if you could build an extra 10 minutes into the end of your morning specifically for Shonah to change her mind. You could plan it out together. Here's what I'm envisioning:

Shonah, we have 10 minutes before we have to get out the door. I'm going to set the timer for 5 minutes and you can use that time to decide if you want to change anything you're wearing/taking with you/etc.

[timer rings]

Ok, we have 5 minutes left. You can use that time to get changed, but when the timer rings again (in 5 minutes!), you need to be out the door. {Perhaps you can set a consequence here for not making this deadline?}

Then, if she chooses not to use the first 5 minutes to make a change, you have time to be a little more relaxed about making it to the bus. Maybe you can read a story or something. I suspect the first few times you try it (and I would definitely prepare her to expect it), you might find yourself running late and fighting it out a bit. But I was thinking that if you keep to it, maybe it will become built into your routine and that will help make it easier?

DotCom - I think the way you handled the cantaloupe situation was beautiful. If you really think he did it on purpose, I would tell him that you think that and it makes you unhappy and angry. I think that telling your children your own feelings is really important. It helps them understand and express their emotions, as well as see consequences in others when we behave certain ways. I wouldn't go for a "punishment" here since you didn't set a specific consequence, but maybe you can have a talk with your DS about the occurence and that it shows you can't trust him to mind you in the car (or whatever). Next time he requests something similar, remind him of what happened and give him a concrete consequence and an alternative. "DS, last time you ate cantaloupe in the car you spilled the sticky juice all over. I'm afraid the same thing will happen and I think we need to wait until we get home to eat." "But MAMA, I'm a BIG BOY and I won't pour it out this time." "Ok, DS, I'll give you another chance. However, if you do pour it out, then you will not be allowed to read stories tonight before bed." Or whatever, you kwim, right? Or do you all think that's too harsh? I don't have a 4 year old, so I don't know!!

Evan/Ana - Oof. That's a toughy! I really don't know. Are you able to create some special one-one play time with him? I'm assuming that you've told him how frustrated and upset it makes you when he behaves that way. One thing my sister did with her boys was to tell them that she simply couldn't hear them when they whined and they would have to speak nicely before she could address their problems. It worked pretty well. Have you tried something like that?

Good luck ladies and keep up the good work. This thread is really, really helping me!!!!


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

Please, may I join?

I've been a yeller now for many moons. I intend to change my wayward ways... here's hoping!!!


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Aussiemom directed me over here from the Give Me a Break thread, and I've been reading a bit tonight. Honestly, I had avoided this thread. I didn't want to think I was yelling that much....or maybe I didn't want to believe that other attached parents would accept me if I did...I don't know. But here I am. I had a reality check from my 22 month old today. She said, and I quote "You yell at Luke too Loud!" Okay, so it took a less than two year old to make the point to me, but I"m here, I'm open to learning and accepting that this is something I need to change.

The thing is, I'm just so tired. I'm tired of everything. I'm tired of doing it all myself. I'm tired of tandem nursing. I'm tired of ds pushing the buttons because he *knows* I don't have any patience right now. But mostly, I'm tired of being angry with my children. I'm tired of feeling like I"m failing them every single moment of every single day. I'm tired of never having one single moment to myself, and then the guilt that comes with not appreciating the greatest blessings that have been bestowed upon us. I sometimes wish we'd chosen to parent differently from the beginning. I'd be done with nightwakings by now. I'd be finished with the bed hopping, trying to get three children to sleep all by myself every single night. I could just sit somewhere and say "good night kids" and they'd go to bed. End of story. None of this, read me another story or nurse me again, or I'm going to wake up 30 minutes after I'm asleep, right when you've got your hands buried elbow deep in dishsoap to wake up screaming because I suddenly realized that nipple is gone.......

And then I hate that I feel that way. I hate that I resent them. I'm not usually like this, NOT AT ALL> I love being a mom. I choose to stay home with them. I choose to paint and blow bubbles and read 100 books rather than get a paycheck and wear expensive clothes. I choose this. And, under normal circumstances, I do love it. That's not to say that I don't have my days, we all do, but this monster mommy I've become....I don't even recognize myself................and that makes me so sad.

There's my pity party. Anyone care to comment!?
Florence


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

Ok, first things first, now my original post is back!!! What is UP with that?? So, sorry if you read through what I posted, TWICE. Ack.









APmom - welcome! I've gotten some great suggestions and some of the best support ever from this thread. I think that it's awesome that we're all working so hard on this thing we hate about ourselves and to me, that's the most important thing. We're working on it!

Florence - Oh mama, I really feel for you!! I am having a tough time doing it with just one, so I am raising a huge glass to you AP'ing 3. That is amazing and you are so clearly doing it with the goal of having happy, healthy children. I've noticed that a lot of us seem to feel guilty about wanting to have some time to ourselves and have some freedom and about resenting the lack thereof that often comes from AP. But the thing is, parenting is HARD, no matter what approach you take. Children force us to live for THEM, and not for US, and that's hard. Period. So I try really hard not to feel guilty about needing a break. I am not a SAHM and I know that, if I was, I would be terrible at it. That might sound harsh, but I just don't have it in me to spend that much time with ANYONE, no matter how much I love them. I just had to accept that I am a much, much better parent when I can get some time away. Therefore, I am HIGHLY sympathetic to the need to find some space. I noticed that you've said you're doing it all alone. Are you a single mama, or lacking partner support? I'm sure you're getting input on other threads, but for my 2 cents, I basically told my DH that I was not physically, mentally or emotionally capable of meeting all the needs of our house, our family, my job, my school and myself and that, if I had to do it all, I was seriously going to have to reconsider my circumstances. That brought him up short and really made a difference in his pitching in. It's taken 5 years to train him as far as he's come, and it's still a big issue, but now I just flat out tell him, "I need a BREAK." Just voicing the need makes a big difference.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

APMom98 - I totally understand how you feel. I read your post and just







to everything you said.

Is there anyway you can get a break? It sounds like it is much needed. I have to remind myself that giving me a break isn't selfishly unnecessary. When I'm feeling overwhelmed and touched out I'm not able to be a good mother. I need time to myself everyday. Sometimes it's 10 minutes to be on MDC, other times I need a whole afternoon.

You can only give, give, give so much until you are empty. You need a break to refuel and be able to give some more.


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## arcenciel (Nov 26, 2001)

Mmgarda - I couldn't find the hug smilie but that's what I meant to send. I have so many disputes with dh when I intervene when he treats the children less well than I would like him to. I feel stuck because part of me knows that it gives them a better relationship together if they do it their own way and he feels closer to them but then I sometimes can't keep my mouth shut if he is rough with them and doesn't stop when they complain, or teases them, or a million other things.

APmom98 - I know exactly how you feel! My youngest is 6 months and although things were fine for a while at the beginning, I just don't feel like I can cope with even the basics at the moment. It comes dinner time and I don't know what to feed them and I don't feel like doing it. Anything extra is a real strain. I'm "lucky" in that we had a 16 month gap between the first 2 so they are now 4 and 5. When they each reached 4 I told them it was time they started sleeping all night in their own bed. I didn't enforce it, but during the day I would repeat it and both times it seemed to work. So mostly now we just have one in our bed and fortunately I don't yell at her yet ! But the way things are with the other two I don't hold out much hope for the long term.

They just need more attention from me and I don't have the energy to give it. But it is ok to have your limits and to say in advance how many stories you are going to read, or that this one is really the last one. Remember it's better to say 'no' and not yell than say yes and end up screaming (I personally would never do that, of course...







).

I'm attempting a picnic today with a friend so fingers crossed.


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## FullCream (Mar 24, 2004)

We're on day 2 of DH being away. Getting out the door in time for school and getting dinner/bath/bed are the worst times of day. DD was being really nice this morning by letting DS and I sleep until we woke. And if it had been the weekend, it would've been terrific. But waking up 20 minutes before school starts is not so good! (I thanked her for her considerate behaviour, but talked to her about it being OK for her to wake me on a school morning!)

DD doesn't like to eat breakfast. We've tried so many cereals, muffins, toast, crumpets, left-overs...She's just not hungry first thing in the morning. She is however STARVING at about 10.30am. And I can't in all conscience (knowing how it effects children) send her to school without breakfast. It can also take her half an hour to get dressed. Brushing her hair can take 20 minutes (or more) and is often not done adequately, but if I do it, no matter how carefully I do it, she screams that I am hurting her.

Tonight I put a very tired DS into the bath, and DD was supposed to get undressed and come into the bathroom to brush teeth and bathe. It took her half an hour. She kept getting distracted: needed to find her music book so that she could check on the lyrics of the song she was singing; had to work out some dance moves to go with the song; had to get some folded clothes out of her drawer to see how she should fold the ones she had been wearing; found a toy she hadn't played with for ages and had to play with that...When she complained that the bath water was cold, I yelled. ("Of course it's cold - it's taken you so long to get into it!").

When I'm trying to talk seriously to her she complains that I'm yelling (and I'm not. Well, not usually). She also won't look at me or stop doing what she's doing. If I say her name I'd really like her to stop what she's doing and listen, but she won't. If I won't let her do something (like ride her bike without her helmet) she screams at me...If I don't know where to find something (that she hasn't put away) she screams at me...

But she's such a sensitive, caring child. She's smart and compassionate. She's terrific with her baby brother. She can be lovely to be with (note to self: spend more time doing things with her). She's funny and exuberant (and loud!). I didn't expect to feel so angry with her after DS' arrival.

I yell when I feel overwhelmed or powerless. And the more I yell (or am bossy) the less things seem to go right. And at the moment I often feel like I have no control over the expression of my feelings. When DH reminds me that I'm the adult and that I should be able to control myself (he's much more diplomatic than that!), I just feel like 'but I can't'.

Hugs to everyone feeling similar feelings to mine.


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## Suzannah (Nov 19, 2001)

I'm sorry FullCream, but I think you have taken my daughter and are parading her about like she's yours - either that or we have twins, separated at birth!!!

I have only one child, so it's hard for me to comment on how to deal with 2 at the same time, but one thing that works for me (sometimes) is to let things go a bit; could you hand her a washcloth and have her give herself a sponge bath instead of getting in the tub? Can she assemble some things while you are preparing the tub and bring them into the bathroom, or by the door (that's what teachers call "proximity control!!")? My SO was gone for a month at a time on a regular basis, so I definitely understand where you're coming from. The single most important thing to remember when you're flying solo, either full-time or only every now and then, is to take time out for yourself. I know it has been said before, and I know it is difficult, but to be able to take an hour a day (all at one, or five minutes here, ten minutes there) is NOT NOT NOT a luxury. It's a necessity.

That said, I was a bad mama this morning with DD, and I feel so bad/guilty about how I am ruining her that I don't really want to elaborate. Sometimes being a mama is really more than I can take.


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

Hi Everyone,

I'm here to join the pity party. I think that all the stuff between DH and I is terribly obvious to DS and it's really f'ing him up. I mean, we're not fighting or anything, but neither are we touching, sleeping in the same room, saying "I love you," or anything normal for our household and I'm sure DS is picking up on it.

This morning was another screecher. Nothing was right, everything was a fight and everyone was miserable. I had to force a possitive inner dialogue on myself, with little effect I might add, and then I had to give myself a time out. Twice. My success is that I managed not to yell or lose it (I did speak a little angrily to DS at one point, but pretty minorly and only to tell him how frustrated I was feeling with the situation). I used the morning as an opportunity to truly tell DS that his unhappiness in the mornings makes me very frustrated and unhappy and angry and I don't like to feel that way. We talked about how he can help by finding his happy self and not fighting everything.

My failure is that I am f'ing FURIOUS still, and it's been over an hour since I last saw him. I am not a person who deals well with mornings, period. Just give me my coffee and get the F out of my way before I throw you out the window is generally the best way I can describe my mornings. To add the ongoing tantrums of a 2 year old to it, well I'm sure you can imagine. And honestly, DH is trying as much as I am (he doesn't even start getting himself ready until after DS and I leave the house) and we are strategizing together so that we're being consistent, but I don't know that I can do this. I am pushed way beyond breaking these days what with my f'ed up marriage, career jobsearch (and concommitant unemployment for the past 5 months since I earned my Master's degree. . .) and oh-so-enjoyable poverty. I really, truly understand how child abuse situations could begin.

SO, to all of us, I am sending hopeful thoughts and support. Here's to making it through the evening. Sadly, DS is going to be babysit by someone he doesn't know well tonight. They have a 2.5 year old, too, so I'm hoping it'll be ok. Given this morning, though, . . .

Oh, and by the way, 4 year olds sound like another "terrible twos" period. Am I right?


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

mmgarda You are really going through a lot right now, so be kind to yourself. If you and dh haven't started couseling yet I will highly recommend it. My dh and I went several years ago for three months and we learned so much from the experience.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmgarda*
My failure is that I am f'ing FURIOUS still, and it's been over an hour since I last saw him.

I think it's okay to be angry as long as you channel it properly - kwim? You didn't yell. You handled your child calmly. Of course you get crazy angry with them, you love them and want them to behave.

I think we need to find ways to dissipate that normal anger and frustration without venting it at our children. I don't think our goal should be to never feel anger because that's not realistic or healthy for that matter.


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## Soogie (Feb 7, 2002)

chiming in here to join the pity party...

APMom98 - I could have written your post, minus the tandem nursing bit. Lately I have been just so ugly. Little to no paitence. I'm tired of being tired, I'm tired of feeling like such a sucky mom. Our family has been in transition since January, starting with me being a single parent while my husband had to work in another city for 3 months. Now we are all back together after having moved to a new house and city. My house is just an endless sea of boxes. I am completely drained. And the littlest life inside me is draining me even more. I just can't seem to get "me" back, and boy do I miss "me", and so do my kids and my husband. What hurts most is the disappointment I see in my son's eyes, when I just don't have any energy left to sing another song or play cars, just 5 more minutes. I'm in a funk that I just can't get myself out of.

So, as you can see, I have no advice for you APMom, just letting you know that you are not alone.

Susan
mommy to Aidan (3 1/2), Fiona (2), and little boo edd 10/27/04


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## robugmum (May 1, 2003)

Can I join in? There must be something going on today because we had a crappy morning too. Every little thing was a fight. The climax was something about getting shoes on. Then, as I was walking down the street with dd, still fuming, with my whimpering 4 year old ds trailing behind, we passed one of our neighbour's houses. Lo and behold, his 3 year old ds was sitting on his front steps screaming. Then we met up with another neighbour and she said that she had had a match with her 4 year old ds too! Anyway I don't know what it is but there must be some negative energy floating around today. I have been reading the last couple of pages here and I am amazed at all of your honesty. Please can I share too? I have struggled with anger all my life and these days my kids just seem to know each and every button to push. I actually have a degree in Child and Youth Care Counselling and I've worked with many many really difficult, damaged kids. All of that, and I feel completely at a loss when my own two healthy, reasonably happy kids get to me. I want to banish the "mama from hell" voice from my personality. I can go for days or even weeks where things go reasonably well but then I have a day like today and I feel like such a failure. Any one have any ideas?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Hello...I'm jumping in late as well!

My problem is this: dd is 2.5 and has never been spanked, but I'm afraid sometimes that I'm coming close. Sometimes I grab her arm and she cries like she does when something is hurting her. I figure, what's the point in going to all this trouble not to spank if I'm just using my greater size and strength to cause her pain in another way? So I want to find a gentler way to respond.

Here are the things that get me angry the most:
- When she hits me, or throws things at me
- When she asks for a special kind of food, and then doesn't eat it
- When she slams her bedroom door over and over
- When I try to send her to her room for something like hitting, and she goes limp and flops down on the floor; I'm pg and can't carry her, so I have to kneel down, put my hands under her arms and yank her to her feet. I think this hurts her as well, but it's the only way I've found to get her to walk to her room on her own.

So that's what we're struggling with now...


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

Man, we really are all having a day, aren't we?

Dotcom - um, we've been seeing a marriage and family counselor for almost 2 years. I feel like nothing helps at this point and our counselor has gotten to the point where he thinks that both DH and I have low-level depression. He would like us to see a doctor and try a prescription for one of the mood drugs (Wellbutrin, Prozac, etc.). I don't know how I feel about that. Here's a brief synopsis of our relationship:

Met
Got engaged w/n 6 months
Got married 1 year later
Got pg w/n 4 months (oops!)
Mama decided to go to grad school when DS hit 10 mos. SAHD had to go back to work
Grad school for 15 months straight w/ DH working FT and me a little PT work
Graduation, DH lost job, I lost job. All in 2 weeks time.
Now, 5 months past graduation and I am still largely unemployed (some temp work) and DH is temping. No stable income, no health care, massive debt.

The stress could kill an elephant, I think. But when you add to the fact that DH and I perceive, understand, and react to the world in completely different ways, it makes for hell. If it helps to understand, I am an MBA, he is a writer. He says "creative," I think "flaky." And that sort of sums it up.

Soogie, Robug and Grease - WELCOME!! Honestly, this is the best thread I've been to here. No judging, no criticism. LOTS of honesty and support. It's becoming a little addictive, actually.









ANGRY AP MAMAS UNITE!!!! Heh heh. That sounds a little freaky, no? But seriously, it is so nice to know that you aren't struggling alone, isn't it. Just hearing everyone else's issues really helps me to keep focused on trying to find solutions for my family.


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

Can't find who said it, but someone posted about us trying to find other ways to let our emotions out. I am struggling with this because I really, really, really want to join a gym again, but don't have any money right now. I've tried to just get up early and do yoga or aerobics or something at home, but it has a tendency to wake up DS or he gets up before I'm finished and I lose my "me" time. There are no sidewalks, so it's not really safe to walk in my neighborhood, plus I have allergies, so that makes it tough.

I've been thinking about buying a heavy bag and setting it up in our garage with a pair of gloves and a baseball bat. What do you all think of something like that.

FUNNY - I told DS this morning that when I'm feeling really angry it makes me want to scream and hit. Before I could finish my sentence by saying it's not ok to hit and I don't like to feel that way, DS said (in a shocked voice), "We don't HIT, mama! You can hit the PILLOW. You can stomp and grr and get the angries out, but we don't HIT."







: I guess sometimes it takes the 2 year old to remind me, huh?


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmgarda*
I've been thinking about buying a heavy bag and setting it up in our garage with a pair of gloves and a baseball bat. What do you all think of something like that.

Part of my dh's counseling that he did for depression (not in our marriage counseling) involved something similar. He would take a tennis racket and smash a pillow with it while screaming out whatever he was angry about. He did it so well he broke the counselor's racket - lol

Our counselor always said, "Depression is anger turned inward."

Anyway, that would be a fanastic way to release anger and tension.


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

I'm reading all these messages and I'm in awe of us all. I know that sounds terrible, but to first of all, be able to admit these emotions is a huge thing and the strength to try so hard to find another way....well, it makes me smile.

A little more on us, dh is military and deployed right now. He's been gone since February and *should* be home sometime next month. It isn't easy to get a break, I trust very few people with my children. I do have a mother's helper that comes once a week, but it's been a couple of weeks as she's been busy with end of school stuff, graduation, etc. I had her come over tonight, there was this spouse's night thing at the club that I wanted to go to because they were having a cookie bake off (I won!) and I love to bake. BOTH the girls decided it would be a good idea to get up at 4:30 this morning, and it was just downhill from there. They both took naps early and instead of taking one myself, I took advantage of no on underfoot and did my workout. It was heavenly, and I felt great! But about 1pm, I was really wearing down and toddler refused to take another nap and I seriously considered cancelling. But my friend convinced me that I was only 5 minutes away and if she had a meltdown, I could be home quickly. So infant went in the sling and off we went. It was a good time, it was nice to only have one child to worry about, and toddler did just fine after I left, she ended up falling asleep without nursing about 7pm!! I do wish I could get a real break, without ANY kids, but it isn't going to happen any time soon, I don't think. Infant just isn't ready to be left with anyone yet, and as frustrating as it is, I really can look back and see the other two went through this exact stage and it will pass. (Ahhh, the joys of having more than one child, but that's another post! LOL!) So all in all, it wasn't a bad day, not a great one, but I used a lot of the tactics in this thread adn the first Anger Management thread and was able to hold off yelling at ds, so that was an accomplishment. I didn't have to do bedtimes all alone either, which was a big breather for me.....that is truly the hardest part of the day for me, the time when they need the most and I have the least to give because I'm just so exhausted. Hoping tomorrow will be a good day, and I'm off to bed in order to make sure (as much as I can control it!) that I get enough rest!!

Hope everyone wakes up with a bright outlook in the morning!


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

APMom - GREAT!!! I'm so glad you had some time for yourself and got a little break. I can't imagine doing it alone like you are. I hope your DH comes home soon!!

This morning was AWESOME!! I was really worried because DH and I went out last night and DS was babysat by someone he doesn't know well, at their house, but it went very well and he went to sleep and everything. Since he had a late night the night before as well, I thought this morning was going to be hell. However, when DS started getting difficult about teeth, I went into the bathroom and reminded him of our conversation yesterday morning. "DS, do you remember how I told you yesterday that when you are angry and not cooperating, I start to get angry, too? But when you cooperate and are happy, it makes me feel SO happy?" He smiled and said, "YEAH!" and immediately started cooperating with DH!!!!!!!!! So of course we praised the hell out of him for the rest of the morning about what a good job cooperating he was doing and how happy we were all feeling this morning and how great it is. I can't BELIEVE what a difference it has made in my outlook on the day. I guess I don't tend to reflect on the good mornings. It helps to know how much what happens in the morning sets the tone for the day.

On another note, re: the situation with my DH, I decided that since I was working on being really open and up front about my feelings with DS, I should do the same thing with DH. So, I laid it all out and told him that I was really scared about what happened on Friday and that, although I am willing to give it another chance, he has to know unequivocally that if anything like that happens ever again, I'm gone, I'm taking DS and I'll fight for custody. Now I feel so much lighter. Like putting it out there really helped me understand how I truly feel about it, instead of keeping it inside and questioning myself and my emotions. My only concern about it is that I am afraid it was coercive. It's not my intention, I just needed this boundary to be glaringly obvious to everyone involved. What do you all think about that, please?

THanks, Mamas! You are all so helpful here!


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

I'm so glad I found this thread. When I started yelling, it was so shocking, and I thought I would deal with it and be over it. 2 years later.... Ugh. I know it's worse when I'm pg, I really want a LOT of time to myself, and that's rough on the kids. I think part of the problem is that in my desperation for "me time," I resort to getting low-quality me time, if that makes sense. So, for instance, I'll be reading on the computer while the kids are watching TV. That's a recipe for disaster in and of itself, but then they will get hungry and cranky and I'll resent having to interrupt my sub-quality me time to do anything, yk? So I get cranky, and they get crankier.... It doesn't help that dh's schedule is 4pm-1am, and then he comes home and takes hours of time on the computer playing games. He generally is coming to bed when I'm getting up, and then I have the kids by myself until I have to get him out of bed for work. With the pgcy, I sleep enough that I have very little time alone when the kids are asleep, and I resent that dh can take all this time when I feel like I need so much. But when I've accomplished so little in a given day because I keep trying to get truly fulfilling me time, I feel like I can't ask for a break. Soogie, I totally relate to what you were saying. I have some better days, but I always seem to return to this funk where I just want to tune everything out.

APmom98, I really appreciate your honesty in your first post. It really expressed a lot of my feelings.

I really liked the book "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline" by, I think, Becky Bailey. I found that it did somewhat address where the anger was coming from, or at least it acknowledged that the anger was there and you needed to discipline yourself before you could teach your child anything. Basically the same as the inner dialogue idea, she explained how you have to work at realizing what you are thinking and changing that, and (another biggie for me) realizing that whatever situation you find yourself in is the way it is. Sure, if it's 10:30 and you're exhausted, the kids should be snoozing soundly, but if they aren't, focusing on how things *should* be won't help anything. She says you end up fighting against the whole universe -- it certainly feels that way! So I've been trying to realize that this moment is as it is, and the only thing I can do is respond well. And learn from it for next time. That's something where I struggle. I can't remember much of my bedtime routine as a kid, but in high school, I usually spent a lot of time loafing, reading, watching TV, and that's what I want to do when dinner is over now. It really doesn't work. I *know* that if I get things done quickly, consistently, we will all be happier. But still, I end up just wanting to loaf, and we're all cranky, and get to bed at least an hour later than we should have.

Anyway, I'm just rambling, I'm very glad to find that I'm not alone. And that my kid is normal! When he's mellow, he's really mellow and agreeable, but I've found that his out-of-balance times have been really rocky. Someone mentioned that 4 yos seem to have a time like 2 yos -- I've read this a few times before and my 4 yo is proof! Things were so draining and challenging when he was around 2, and then smooth sailing through three until just recently, around 4.5, then poof! He's also learning and growing and becoming more independent much more now than in his lull time, it all just goes together.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Today was another failure day for GD...dd has been having these sudden tantrums that I don't understand. Like today, we were making muffins and I needed her to scoot over so I could get into a drawer. She wouldn't move when I asked her to, so I held her with one arm and started to scoot her footstool with the other. She started screaming and throwing ingredients on the floor, and then grabbed the bowl of batter. I don't know why, but I was unable to pry it out of her hands. I kept asking her to put it down or give it to me, then I tried pulling on it, and still could not get it away from her. Finally she tried to throw it on the floor and I caught it. I figured I would just put her in her room, and she did her usual thing of going limp and refusing to walk. It took several tries of her taking only one step at a time before I could get her into her room, with her screaming the whole time, and I did resort to grabbing, pushing, pulling, anything I could do to get her to walk.

I don't know what brought it on; she was having such a good time. Eariler in the day she got ahold of a pen, broke it open and got ink everywhere. I had to take it away from her and put her in the bathtub. No resistance from her there...she handed me the pen and walked to the tub without throwing a fit. It seems like when I try to interact with her, things start falling apart. I wonder if she would be happier just playing in her room or watching TV all day; those things never end up with her crying. I was feeling bad for ignoring her and not being much fun or doing interesting things with her, but it seems like she's not happy when I do try and involve her.


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

Oh Grease - I have SOOO been there! When Sebastian reacts in a way that seems totally out of whack to the situation, I usually respond by acknowledging that. It just sort of happens naturally. I tend to say something like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa!! What happened?? Why are you so upset??" Of course, that doesn't often work, but it helps me to focus on what might be going on with him, instead of what I'm feeling.

I've been thinking about the limp thing and wondering if maybe there's a better approach than trying to get your DD to leave the room, especially since she can fight against it SOOO effectively. I like to think that my response to that situation would have been to say something along the lines of, "Hey, if you want to help me cook - and I would LOVE for you to help me cook! - then you need to calm down. I can see that you're feeling frustrated, but we don't throw things on the floor. Would you like to take a break for a few minutes to calm down? No? Ok, if we're going to continue cooking, I need for you to cooperate with me. If you can't cooperate, you can get down off the stool." That way you're removing her from the situation by taking her off the stool, but you don't have to try to get her all the way to her room. Of course, with my DS I can totally see that escalating to full-blown tantrum on the floor, which is a huge trigger for me to lose it. In that case, I hope I would be able to see clearly enough to give myself a time-out and go to MY room. I actually did that twice the other morning when DS was tantruming and it really helped me calm down enough to focus on problem-solving.


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## gratefulmom (Jul 5, 2002)

Just jumping in here. I am need of support with this also. I am working so hard on not yelling and losing my patience so easily. I have a newborn (3 mos) and a 23 month old. Whne I am tired and ds is whiny it is so easy to scream. I am currently remionding myself that it is my tiredness not his toddlerhood that is getting to me!
Thanks Mamas for being here!


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## drewselle (Jul 17, 2003)

Hi ladies. I'm new here, but so glad I came across this thread! I've been reading through the posts and it's so good to know that I'm not the only "yeller" out there. My mom constantly yelled growing up and it really just became our way of communicating. Until recently I didn't think there was really anything wrong with raising my voice, but as Bella gets older, I'm becoming more aware of what comes out of my mouth and sometimes I just sound UGLY!!

Anyways, I'm going to try to positive internal dialogue and see where that gets me. I seem to do so good until I get really frustrated and then I end up yelling and sounding like a 5 year old, instead of an in control adult.

I guess that's all for now!!


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## FullCream (Mar 24, 2004)

Had some moderate success just before (controlling my anger). DD, DS and I went shopping this morning - bought lots of needed clothes/sleep-wear, and a special toy each. DD was helpful, cooperative and funny. I told her so. When we got home I told her that I'd really enjoyed our outing - she'd been good company and had made things easy for me by helping so much.

On the way home we'd talked about DS needing a sleep and how it's much easier to get him to sleep if it's quiet, so things like walking around the house a lot or opening and closing doors make it harder . I asked DD what she'd like to do while I was getting him to sleep. She said she'd like to do some drawing at the kitchen table. I agreed that would be a good choice, and suggested she could do some reading or work on the computer too if she liked. Thought we had it all sorted out... Just as DS was feeding [nursing] to sleep, DD crept to the door 'whispering' "Mummy, mummy, I'm thirsty". I whispered back "Please go away. I'll talk to you soon". So then she decided to go outside - but the door was locked so she clomped through the house to find the keys, opened the door (which both squeaks and bangs) and let the neighbour's cat in (she has a loud bell and was meowing excitedly). Eventually DS was asleep and I was able to put him down. I went outside to DD and explained that I was really angry because she had chosen to do things that made lots of noise and that made it very hard for me to get her brother to sleep even though we'd talked about what I needed. She was apologetic, but still seemed to think I was being unfair. Still, I didn't yell at her...


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Oh FullCream I can totally relate to the asking one to be quiet while you're trying to get another to sleep....it is so completely frustrating and Kudos to you for not yelling. That seems to be one area where I tend to lose it a LOT!

And I need some positive thoughts for today. It has started off on a terrible note and my patience isn't too great to begin with. The kids were driving me crazy yesterday, so we left to go to this indoor playland and then to a friend's house. It was nice, but later than normal when we got home. The kids weren't in bed until about 10pm!







So by the time I got the nighttime stuff finished, and emailed dh (a nightly routine), it was about 11pm. WAY later than I needed to get into bed, considering the toddler and infant were both up several times the night before and I was going on about 3.5-4 hours of sleep anyway. But then, dh calls at about 12:30. It's rare that he gets a chance to call, and so I always want to talk to him. We were only on the phone for about 20 minutes, but I had a harder time falling asleep afterwards. Did I mention how much I miss him?







Then toddler got up about 1:30. Then again at 3. Ds got up as I was coming out of toddler's room about 3:30, saying he'd had a bad dream and would I sit with him. So I go into his room, but infant wakes up and so I tell him to come into the fb. I go lay down to nurse infant, he comes in and snuggles up REALLY CLOSE. So I'm sandwiched between them and can't go to sleep. I finally drift off about 4:45. My alarm goes off at 5:45. I need to get my workout in before the kids get up today. I thought about skipping it, but I always feel better if I get in at least a short one. I hit snooze until 6 and then got up. Come down to do my workout. Get the stuff (water, weights, etc) all arranged and toddler wakes up "Mama, I want nilk!" So I get her, nurse her, and then she has to pee. I take her up to the potty, and she's talking and wakes up infant. Now, I can't workout, infant is crawling and I just can't keep her out of the stuff, and I'm so afraid I'm going to stepon her, etc. It's now 6:40. Ds has basketball at 8:30. I pick up my sitter at 10, I have a hair appt at 11 which I"m going to have to take infant to because she's going to be a pill and I need to return some stuff at the mall and there's no way I can just put her down for a nap and then go do my stuff and get back before she wakes up, and she freaks out if sitter is here and I'm not when she wakes up and I'm already frustrated and tired and it;s just a recipe for a NOT good GD day......................................anyone have any extra patience today? could you send it my way please??


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

FullCream, how long does your baby usually need to get to sleep? I know some babies are more sensitive to noise, but I always found that as long as he was still latched on, the room could be pretty noisy and the baby would still be falling asleep. My 2 yo nurses to sleep for his naps, and I have a 4 yo. We've always used the same basic routine, since he was napping consistently. Often the toddler nurses to sleep while I'm having quiet time with the 4 yo (me reading to him after lunch and tidying up), and I only have to go upstairs to lay the toddler down or, more often recently, I have to lay down with him for a little bit and then unlatch him. The 4 yo can usually manage to stay downstairs and quiet long enough for me to do that. I have explained to him that if Solomon wakes up, he will be very cranky and things will just be more difficult than if he gets a chance to get some rest. He does often come upstairs, but he usually just waits. I think if I had something out that he would want to do before I start the nursing -- like having a notebook or mazes on the table, or a quiet toy, or his snack waiting in the fridge -- he might not feel the need to come upstairs. Maybe your dd resents the special quiet time the baby gets with you, regardless of how much special time you guys have together otherwise. Maybe some special thing for you two to do together once the baby is asleep would be nice. It's tricky, 'cause I don't want to give the impression that it's *such* a relief and *so* much nicer when the baby is asleep, and that we're celebrating it, yk?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I wonder if my whole approach has been all wrong; if at age 2.5 a child can't understand discipline that's based on consequences. And I've also thought lately that it could be wrong to force her to walk to her room; it's sort of like I'm making her betray her own body, because then she has to make her body do something she would never agree with. My original thought was that if she had to walk to her room every time, it would be another step in taking responsibility for her actions; not only does she have to go to her room, but no one will help her do it. But maybe she just doesn't get that yet.

What would be helpful is some sort of "troubleshooting" book with ap/gd answers vs. mainstream answers for every child behavior issue.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Apmom3, I'll send you what little bit of left-over patience I've got today. It's been off & on at our house since last Monday's big blow-up. Hmmmmm...... I know you said you don't trust many people with your kids, but man, if there ever was a mama who needed a bit of a break, I think it's you sister, what with your husband in the Middle East since February, tandem nursing, not getting enough sleep at night..... Sleep for me is a big thing. I feel like if I get enough sleep, then I'm so much better with my temper (to everyone, not just the kids!). So, my question is, is your oldest child in school yet? Is it possible to have them in day-care one day per week, or a half-day per week? I ask because I personally felt better after I went back to work PT & had the kids in care PT (not that I think you should have a job to justify childcare!). I know some folks are really uncomfortable with this idea, but I put it out htere becasue it helped me...... So, just a thought......

Hope that makes sense..... I'm posting & running today..... aforementioned job thing...... perhaps NOT the answer to a quieter life, but oh well....


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## CharlieBrown (Jan 20, 2004)

hi, i'm checking in. just found you. will write mote later. naking but keeps kicking keyboard


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## monkaha (Jan 22, 2004)

Mind if I jump in? I'm so glad I found this thread! Some of the suggestions you ladies have are wonderful! I've been having a hard time, now that I have 2 (6wks and almost 3). It's especially bad when I haven't had much sleep the night before.














Though that's getting better-I realize that it's a problem and try to keep my temper in check)Sometimes I see myself from my DD's eyes and she must feel terrible, always being told to wait, or calm down, or be quieter. Gotta come up with a way for her to be as loud as she wants, at least for a little while. She doesn't like her room, and it's getting near 100 degrees, so I can't send her outside... Ok, baby's fussing. I'll try to come up with something constructive to say next time.


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## robugmum (May 1, 2003)

Just want to post in and give a big








to you all. I am plum out of advice right now but I 'll think about it. I know, mostly, we all just need the support anyway!


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
I wonder if my whole approach has been all wrong; if at age 2.5 a child can't understand discipline that's based on consequences. And I've also thought lately that it could be wrong to force her to walk to her room; it's sort of like I'm making her betray her own body, because then she has to make her body do something she would never agree with. My original thought was that if she had to walk to her room every time, it would be another step in taking responsibility for her actions; not only does she have to go to her room, but no one will help her do it. But maybe she just doesn't get that yet.

Hey Greaseball







I do think your approach has been all wrong. I don't think she (kids this age) get a lot of things yet (like logical consequences).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
What would be helpful is some sort of "troubleshooting" book with ap/gd answers vs. mainstream answers for every child behavior issue.

There *are* lots of books! I've been meaning to post to this thread and share some great tips I got from a *Parenting Class - Positive Discipline* I've been taking for the past few weeks based on Becky Bailey's books.







*I have learned to successfully keep my anger in check!!!*

DS attends a great Parent-Co-op Preschool where there is a lot of emphasis on *Parent education & positive discipline*. So there are Parent Talks (Mary Sheedy Kurcinka - author of RAISING YOUR SPIRITED CHILD will be talking this Tuesday night.)

Anyway, I've been meaning to post the tips I got for you ladies... I can't do it right now... I'll do it later...

Here is a one book title:
Easy to Love: Difficult to Discipline


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## Stacymom (Jul 7, 2002)

I know you've had a million new posters to this thread, and I'm yet another one who appreciates the honesty and candor, and is so glad that I'm not the only one!

I have a two and a half year old and a ten month old, and things get pretty crazy around here pretty often. We're trying to sell our house, I'm teaching part time and am trying to get the end of the year taken care of, and my dh got pneumonia and was hospitalized for a day and a half this week and has spent the rest of the week recuperating. Sometimes I feel like I've been taking care of three children.







Some days I do okay, but like someone else said, there are days (like today) where every little thing that could possibly go wrong does, the kids are whining and dh isn't helping, and then the







dog come barelling in the house, tracking mud and hair (why, oh why, do I have a long haired German Shepherd?







: ) all over the kitchen floor and I just loose it. My kids are picking up on the tension and that makes things even crazier.

I hate that I get like this- I hate yelling or being physically rough with my kids. And I hate spanking! I don't do it often, and a lot of times I do it without thinking, but then the look in my dd's eyes makes me feel like the worst parent scum ever, and I hate that! I hate betraying her trust, and I hate the power struggles and the way that the yelling that goes on makes all of us feel. I'm not sure where all the anger comes from either because I wasn't raised with parents who yelled a lot....







:

Anyway, I realy, really want to do better, and the timing of finding this thread couldn't be better. So I'm off to read the first thread, and ready to start my new "no yelling, no hitting week" tomorrow.


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Hello! I also really need this thread. As others have mentioned, just dealing with a crazy kid is hard enough..then add exhaustion, pregnancy, unsupportive hubby, job, cleaning..etc. and you have a recipe for disaster.

I also need to stop yelling. Add me to the list of unsupportive hubs. John thinks yelling is ok and we fight because he thinks he can't discipline without yelling. He also spends lots of time on the computer and out past 2 with his friends so then he sleeps a lot the next day and is grumpy!

I love Julie so much and I know how hard it is. We all love our babies and that's why we're trying...thanks so much for these threads!!!!!


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Ok I just lost it and I'm coming here to calm down because I know I'm being a jerk - I'm just fed up.

My almost four year old is constantly pushy, hitting, pulling at, taking toys away from, throwing something at the baby. I've been trying to give 4 yr old extra mom time, trying to model being gentle and reminding to be gentle. Removing my 4 yr old from the room with the baby until he feels he can play gently (over and over and over). So I went down stair for two seconds to throw dipes into the dryer and I come up and the baby is wailing in pain and the four yr old smirks and brags that he dragged his brother by the hair because he didn't want to be around him.







I try to watch them ever minute of the day, but ya know I have to be able to do laundry for 30 seconds, not that he doesn't do the same stuff when I'm watching anyway.







:

Anyway, I blew it. I yelled. I put him in his room. He kept opening and closing the door. I banged his door shut and then pounded it with my hands out of total anger and I feel like a complete idiot because I know that's not the answer. I know it doesn't help to have a tantrum myself and I know I'm not teaching my child anything by behaving this way. So I just started sobbing and now I'm here trying to center myself and keep my perspective.

What is my problem? I know in my head my four year old is jealous of the baby and that is why he acts this way toward the baby. I should be sympathetic and not angry, but it's so hard. The mama bear part of me wants to just protect the baby and lash out at who ever tries to harm him.

I love my 4 yr old too. I don't know what to do here.

Ok here is what I'm going to do. Every time I see ds #2 hurting or about to hurt ds #3 - when I feel that anger - I'm going to remind myself how much I love ds#2, how much he loves me and how hard it is for him to share the person he loves the most with someone who seems to eat up all her time. I'm going to tell him every time that I love him, but he CANNOT hurt the baby.

<sigh> I need a hug


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

So the only thing I do right is not yell...though I did yell at dd yesterday because she head-butted me and it really hurt! Right in the middle of my forehead. I did resort to another time-out after that.

Sometimes I wish she never learned how to open a door. She won't stay in her room anymore, and she comes into our room and the computer room and gets into stuff. We've had to call tech support so many times after she has done something to the computer.

So I tried something I said I'd never do...I put a plastic "frustrator" on her doorknob so she can't open it. I don't like the idea of locking her in her room, but I guess it's not like she can get hurt in there, and I'm always where I can hear her. There are times when I need her to stay in her room, like bedtime. She goes to bed late...close to the time dh and I go to bed, and we don't want to be repeatedly putting her back in her room. We've tried letting her sleep with us but she just starts kicking us and then won't stay in the bed.

After she came out of her room during naps, we figured we would just have to direct her back into her room. So what she would do is just open the door and slam it, and then when we got there she would already be in her room. So we would direct her back to bed...now she slams the door and when we come to put her in bed, she is already there. I'm sure the frustrator will help with that. I also know this defiance is going to be good for her in the long run...it sure does suck now though!


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dotcommama*
<sigh> I need a hug






















































I would tell you about my temper tantrum with my ds last night to make you feel better, but I'd get kicked out of MDC! It was *TERRIBLE*. And I know a lot of it is what you said about them needing *more* time and energy from us right when we have less and less to give. It's so hard. Here's some more





















.


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## monkaha (Jan 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dotcommama*

Ok here is what I'm going to do. Every time I see ds #2 hurting or about to hurt ds #3 - when I feel that anger - I'm going to remind myself how much I love ds#2, how much he loves me and how hard it is for him to share the person he loves the most with someone who seems to eat up all her time. I'm going to tell him every time that I love him, but he CANNOT hurt the baby.

<sigh> I need a hug

















Dotcommama-I think that sounds like a good plan. What a frustrating situation! I know what you mean about the mama bear feelings, I get them too.

Let's see...he's jealous of the baby, so he's doing whatever he can to get your attention. How long after he does something to the baby can you do something special with him without it seeming like a reward? With my DD, just reading a short story or coloring for a few minutes is enough to chill her out a little(but she's younger than your DS, so I don't know if the same stratagies work). The timing thing is my main prob. I don't realize she's feeling neglected till she does something(usually to the baby or the dog), but if I pay attention to her right then, it's negative reinforcement. Does ignoring the behavior(as long as no one is in danger) work?

Anyway, hugs to you. Hope the rest of your day goes better!


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
I put a plastic "frustrator" on her doorknob so she can't open it.

I swear, I've been seriously thinking of getting one of these. When *I* need a time out, a break to breathe for 5 minutes (heck, I'd settle for two minutes!!) and they just WILL NOT LEAVE ME ALONE and it just escalates to the point that I have to actually go into the garage to calm down....I scare myself sometimes.


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

Ok ladies,

I've been absent for a few days and came back to find so many postings where we are all blaming ourselves. I honestly believe this can make things worse. If you feel bad about yourself, you're more likely to get angry at yourself. If you're angry at yourself, it's easy for that anger to leak out!

We ALL make mistakes. We ALL do things we're not proud of. Don't waste your time telling yourself what a horrible person you are. The fact that you acknowledge what happened and are looking for alternatives is the good part!!!

Grease - You are NOT doing it all wrong and I don't agree with the PP who said you are. I don't think that trying to teach consequences for actions is something that can be done too early. Maybe trying to get your DD to walk to her room on her own isn't working, but that doesn't mean you are doing it WRONG, ok?? Let's all brainstorm some concrete ideas for Grease to use as alternatives.

APMom - You are tackling the hardest thing I could ever envision. I know that I am a total freaking WRECK without enough sleep. I have found myself literally kicking and screaming when I'm really tired. I was wondering if you could pick one thing today to just let go of. Like, do you have to go to the mall today, or could you save it for another day when you've had more sleep? Is there a time when your sitter could come just so you could work out and get your endorphins going? And I also wanted to second the PP who suggested that you see if you can find a way to get some 100% alone time. I know that might not be practical or even possible, but if you COULD, it might really help.

All the new posters - welcome! As you can see, we all struggle here and it's a GREAT support network and resource.

Frustrator Doorknobs - I am all for them!!! If you need to create a space to put your DC that you know s/he won't get hurt in and that will give you a chance for a few minutes to recenter, by all means, do it!! I think it's very akin to using a playpen or crib during the infancy years when the baby is screaming for an hour and you don't know why and you're ready to lose it yourself. It's the same thing, IMHO.

Finally, my own minor success - I want to know what you all think is "coercion." DS has been having an awful time with naps lately. He really, really needs a daytime nap, but on the weekends, just won't go down. Saturday he got up so many times we finally just let him get up. BUt then he fell asleep around 5, which threw his schedule WAY off, and which resulted in a TERRIBLY cranky toddler by dinner time. So yesterday, when he was screwing around and continually getting out of bed to get another toy or whatever, I told him we could not go to a friend's house and swim if he didn't take a nap. I think what I said was, "If you can't show me that you can mind me and take a nap, then I don't think you are big enough to go swimming at Veronica's house later." That worked, but only after about 1 1/2 hours of repeatedly putting him back in bed. (And no, laying down with him doesn't seem to work - it makes it worse!) So, my question is, was that coercion, or consequences? I really wouldn't have taken him - I would never inflict an un-napped toddler on someone else's house!


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

I just want to say thank you all so much for the hugs. I'm calmer now, but things are still not good today.

After writing my post I calmed down went to ds, hugged him, explained how much I love him, but that no one in this house is allowed to hurt another and so I cannot allow him to hurt his little brother.

Not five minutes later he walked by him and out of nowhere smacked him on the head.

This time I calmly removed him (chanting in my head the whole time - I love you, I love you, I love you) and I said, "Honey I love you with all my heart, but you cannot hit the baby."

I made him sit in a chair in his room, he kept getting up, but I told him he would stay in his room until he sat in the chair for two minutes. (I don't normally do this - usually I just send him to his room until he feels ready to try again, but I feel I've got to make a more strict punishment as what I have been doing isn't working). It took about 10 minutes, but he finally sat down for two and came out.

I took the kids to the library. It went okay, until right before I was getting them in the car ds was squeezing his brother's face really hard.

<sigh>

The baby is in my lap nursing to sleep and my oldest is at school, so I'm hoping to be able to put the baby down and play with ds#2 and hope that giving him some good quality mom time will calm this little storm we have going this morning.


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

Ok, so I know I just asked you all if my method about the nap thing was coercion, but Dotcom - could you have a specific consequence for your DS about hurting the baby? I'm thinking something like, "DS, you know that hurting the baby is not ok. If you aren't big enough to remember that, then I think maybe you aren't big enough to do X." Or maybe, "DS, I feel very sad that I can't trust you not to hurt your brother. Since I can't, I don't feel that I can trust you if we go Y place."

My concern, and I really, really need some input on this!!!!, is that I don't want it to sound like blame or shame. Is this something you'd consider doing? Is it a consequence, or is it "mean"? I think if I were in DotCom's situation, I truly would be wary of going to the library, etc. if I felt like I couldn't trust my child with his brother. (Please don't take that as a judgement, Dotcom!!!







) So, how do you deal??


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

No problem, I don't feel judged at all.

I took the kids to the library because sometimes getting out of the house helps. He did not get to pick a movie today, though he normally would, because of his behavior with his brother.

So yes, I do take privileges away some times, but that's not always a great idea.

For example, my children only watch TV once per day. If I said that his punishment for hitting the baby was to not watch his show today, what do I do if he hits again? Take away tomorrow's show? And then the next days? Will he remember in a day or two why he isn't getting his show? Probably not. Or if I only take away the one show then he basically has free license to misbehave because there is no more consequence - kwim?

Baby napped for a nice long time and I spent it on the couch reading to my ds. We even looked at his baby photos and talked about him being a baby and how gentle we all were to him and then looked at photos of the baby with ds and talked about how great those photos were of him being so gentle and nice. . .

10 minutes after the baby woke up he clobbered him again.

The thing is he's doing it more to be annoying than to hurt. I no he's not hitting hard or even pushing hard, but the point is he shouldn't be doing it at all!!!


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

mmgarda...naps make me nuts! Some days she goes right to sleep, others she freaks out. I must admit that it's my fault. I am not consistent with bedtime and days when I am especially exhausted, I let Julie sleep too long in the afternoon(when she sleeps)and then, of course, she's up late. I have to just GET HER UP IN AN HOUR OR SO TODAYYY! Sorry...just had to yell at myself...hmm..I yell a lot. Anyway...the few days where I really do let her have a short nap and put her to bed early, it really helps. But even with those times, she sometimes refuses to nap. She screams about it or plays in her room. So on those days, I tell her she doesn't have to sleep but she has to stay in her bed, be quiet and rest. If she falls asleep anyway, even better. Sometimes she keeps asking..can I get up now..now? But usually it works.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Dotcom - I forget if anyone else suggested this, but what about keeping the baby in a sling for much of the time, and when you aren't able to do that, keeping him in something else like a crib or playpen the older one can't get to?

Does the older one have any other privileges? Walks, seeing friends, playing outside? Maybe he doesn't care much about missing his TV show, but taking away something else might have an effect.

Have you asked him why he is hitting?

I wish my dd were old enough to understand taking away a privilege. I don't think she could make the connection, though. Yesterday dh and I took her for a walk down the street, at her request, and she wandered into someone else's yard (which we don't allow) and started playing with their flowers. We asked her to come with us several times, tried walking away hoping she would follow, but we were nearly out of sight and she still was in the other yard. She was hitting the flowers and we didn't want her to ruin them, so dh finally just picked her up and carried her home screaming. It was good dh was there because if it were just me, I would have either had to drag her or let her do what she was doing. I probably would have been able to keep her away from the flowers, but she was screaming in someone else's yard early in the morning! That's just not OK in my book.

So today she is asking for a walk again, and it would be so easy if I could say "No, not after the way you acted yesterday." But I can't...I don't know what to do. It's unfair to keep her inside on a nice day just because I can't lift her, but I think until I am able to lift her again we will just have to stay home.


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

Dotcom -

Quote:

If I said that his punishment for hitting the baby was to not watch his show today, what do I do if he hits again? Take away tomorrow's show? And then the next days? Will he remember in a day or two why he isn't getting his show? Probably not. Or if I only take away the one show then he basically has free license to misbehave because there is no more consequence - kwim?
Hmmm. Good point. But I think, yeah, maybe to keep taking priveleges away? I just don't know. I worry that it might cause more resentment and frustration. I like Greaseball's question. Have you asked him why? Also, have you told him how it makes YOU feel? Can you tell him that you really, really want to spend special time with him, but when he hurts his brother, it makes you not want to be around him? I don't know if that's fair or not, but I tell my DS when he screams at me that it makes me not want to be around him because it isn't pleasant and it makes me feel bad. Different situation, I know.

Dr. Worm - Yeah, naps can be a pain. Thing is, DS has a pretty solid routine and has always been very, very easy about nap time. I would have no problem with him just resting, except for the fact that he ends up being a miserable little PITA by about 5:30 if he hasn't napped and if we happen to be in the car, he'll fall asleep. At that point my options are to 1) wake him up, which he will inevitably tantrum over or 2) let him sleep until he wakes up because he's hungry or has peed himself. Neither seems great to me. I think he's hitting the age when he's just beginning to transition out of a daily nap, but isn't fully ready. If he could nap at 5:30 for like 1/2 hour, I think it would be GREAT! But somehow, if he naps late, well all hell breaks loose. I don't know what it is, except f'ing MISERABLE! LOL.

Grease - how old is your DD again? I would say that taking her out of someone's yard kind of IS taking away a privelege. And as for the walk, can you tell her what you expect from her before you go on the walk (no going in people's yards, etc.) and that you'll have to go home if she doesn't mind? It might take a few walks, but I bet she'll get the idea.


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## monkaha (Jan 22, 2004)

mmgarda-does it matter what you call it(coersion vs. consequences) if it works? If you aren't going to take him if he doesn't nap, he needs to know that.

What seems to work(sometimes anyway) for naps with my DD is to start talking about it early. "Today we're going to do x and x and then eat lunch, then take a nap." and just keep mentioning it during the day. "Don't forget, after lunch is nap." Just make it a fact that after lunch is nap. period. She even asks while she's eating now if she has to take a nap after. She still whines "I don't manna" but she goes right to sleep when I lay down with her.

hope that helps!


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

Quote:

does it matter what you call it(coersion vs. consequences) if it works? If you aren't going to take him if he doesn't nap, he needs to know that.
Well, yes, I think so. I agree that they can be similar, but there is a difference. I want to be careful about coercing behaviour, because I think that gets into the bribery area which will be difficult to handle later. I don't want to be making deals with my kids in order for them to behave well. Neither do I want to use the idea that we won't go somewhere as punishment. It's a really, really tough line in my mind. Or maybe it's not and I'm just making it that way! I suppose that if I had said, "If you don't nap, you will be tired and cranky later and I can't take you to Veronica's house when you're tired and cranky," as opposed to, "If you don't nap, we won't go to Veronica's house to swim," I might not be questioning the coercion issue. I think I was just so fed up with his inability to nap for several days, that I wasn't thinking it through. What do the rest of you think?

Quote:

What seems to work(sometimes anyway) for naps with my DD is to start talking about it early.
We do. Ad nauseum. And ask him to repeat it and tell us what we're going to do. Ad nauseum.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Mmgarda - She's almost 2.5. We never know how she is going to behave on any given day, so we try to anticipate and prevent certain situations. I have had some luck with telling her before we go "OK, you need to hold my hand when we cross the street/stay on the sidewalk/etc. or we'll have to turn around and go home." Sometimes she follows the rules, sometimes she doesn't, and when she doesn't we have just gone right home. Sometimes we can walk for nearly an hour, sometimes we have to turn back after 2 blocks. But she always agreed to walk home when I told her to before; now that she's resisting that I think I will have to keep her home for awhile. Dh sometimes finds time to take her out after he gets home, and they spend nearly the whole day together on the weekends.

Dotcom - If you ask why, he may say something like "I don't know" or "Because I want to." But I've heard of ways to get young children to open up more and tell you the real reasons - one is to ask him to tell you a story about a boy his age who has a little brother, and see if he reveals anything there. Another is to act out a scene with stuffed animals - he can have one animal be him, and you can have another animal be the baby, and have the baby ask him not to hit. Just a thought...


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

Grease - Hmmm. That sounds kinda like my guy. I guess I would just keep doing what you're doing. Set the limits and then enforce them. SOrry you're having a rough time of it, though.


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Okay, just some random thoughts here....

First of all, I don't think it's EVER too early to teach logical consequences to actions. I have always followed the train of thought that my children understand much more than they can vocalize, even at an early age. We have certain phrases that they hear constantly, from infancy. The biggest one is "Safety Rules are Non-negotiable" Even dd (22 months) gets this now. When we're walking somewhere and her new favorite saying is "I walk me" meaning, I walk by myself, I say "Right now, we're in a safety zone, when we get to X you can walk by yourself." She protests. Me "Here are your choices. You may walk holding my hand, or you may get carried." She says "I walk ME!" and I say "this is a safety rule." And she sticks up her hand. This is something that I had to actually carry her a few times...LOL! Me, with infant in the sling, backpack diaperbag on my back, purse over my shoulder, and having to pick up a squirming, screaming toddler. But the fact is, it is her safety...I am NOT going to negotiate! Granted, she isn't very comfortable up there, but the purpose isn't to make her comfortable, the purpose is to teach her the rules. As far as the going in other people's yards, we don't allow that either. And there have been times when we just had to go home, again, with her screaming. But she is learning the rules.

As far as coersion vs. consequences....I had a discussion with someone here a few weeks ago about my punishment of putting my ds to bed alone. They thought that I was being too harsh, that I was telling him that my love is conditional on his behavior. That isn't true. And he knows it. The facts are simple, children will push to test the limits. They will see how far the rules can bend. I will allow things to bend and stretch, unless it is hurting someone else or themself. The night in question, he'd woken up the baby several times after I'd put her down for the night. He kept being too loud, even though I'd asked him, repeatedly, to be quieter, or go to the playroom. I got angry. I yelled. He still was loud. I told him that if he woke up his sister again, he would be going to bed alone (no stories or snuggles). He verbalized understanding. Within 10 minutes, he'd yelled about something. Okay, so harsh for putting him to bed? Well, maybe. He did cry and scream for quite a while. However, he was HURTING his sister. Not physically, but interrupted sleep isn't good for anyone. He had to learn that this wasn't something I would tolerate. Now, on the subject of my love being conditional. That bothers me on so many levels. So, what that person was saying was that he's so unsure of my love that my discipline over the course of a night was going to prove that my love isn't there when he misbehaves? NOT! And it isn't giving my child enough credit for the brain God gave him. He KNOWS that I love him. He knows it deep in his soul. My being angry with him doesn't change that. Again, he KNOWS this. So coersion? Not in my book. Consequences. Because he continued to wake his sister, I didn't have the energy or patience to read to him and snuggle him like normal.

I think it's our job to teach our children that there are consequences for behavior. Like I've been telling ds lately "Even inaction is a choice." If he CHOOSES not to do something that I've asked of him, then he CHOOSES to accept the consequences, whatever they may be. If you feel your ds needs a nap before going somewhere, then that is a LOGICAL consequence. I think the problem comes in when people start setting arbitrary rules and consequences without first knowing the situation and child and parent and all the variables involved. THAT shows lack of respect for the child. Logical consequences show respect for the child, and the adult that they will eventually grow into. More to say....but both the girls are awake. Ugh, the evening shift begins!


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Thanks ladies.

First, just to clarify, I don't take away the privilege of tv for hitting - I think that's too abstract and he won't really remember why he didn't get tv. I was just using that as an example

I didn't allow him to choose a movie to bring home from the library because he did not behave there. That, I felt, was more of a logical consequence that he could understand.

Have I asked him why? Yes. He says because he doesn't want Jason around him. And I told him that's okay, he's can go and play in his room with the door shut or gate up so his little brother will not bother him, but he doesn't choose to do that.

Am I honest with how it makes me feel? Yes. I have told him that when he is mean to his brother I don't like it. It makes me sad, etc. I have told him to think about times when his older brother pushes or hits him and how it feels and to remember that I also intervene and do not allow his older brother to hurt him either.

I don't really like the idea of taking away a bunch of different privileges. I don't think that makes any sense. I mean why no tv for hitting, then no snack for hitting, etc - kwim?

Normally the punishment for hitting, pushing or being rough in our house is to go to your room until you can play nicely. It's obviously not working, so I'm doing an official time out, sit in a chair for x amount of time. I just started today, so I can't say if it's successful. We'll see.

Grease for your dd and the walk can you take a stroller with you? That way you can just push it, or she can push it, while you guys walk, but if she does not behave then you pop her in and wheel her home?

coercion vs. consequences - well I think it matters. I think coercion is going to cause a child to feel very manipulated and upset. If they don't understand why they lost a privilege, if it seem random to them, how is that teaching them anything? It's just a parent being vindictive (not intentionally so, but still). I hope that if you use a natural or logical consequence a child can understand and learn. Example: You hit, you sit. If I hit, I can't play with my brother I have to play by myself. Hopefully child sees the connection between playing nice and being allowed to play with others.

ETA: I can't carry him all day. I don't have the stamana and he walks and wants to be down on the ground playing. I have ordered a mei tai and I'm hoping it's more comfortable than my other carrier and then maybe I can carry him more.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I've read that discipline strategies almost never work right away; that if something seems not to be working it just means you need to do it some more. But I don't know how long to continue with something.

For example, we used to do timeouts for screaming. You know, the kind of screaming that isn't really about anything, that just seems to be for the sake of making noise. We started this around 18 mos, and at the age of maybe just over 24 mos, she stopped screaming unless it was actually about something. But I don't know if the timeouts finally worked, or if it's just something she needed to grow out of and the timeouts didn't actually influence it at all.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *APMom98*
I think it's our job to teach our children that there are consequences for behavior. Like I've been telling ds lately "Even inaction is a choice." If he CHOOSES not to do something that I've asked of him, then he CHOOSES to accept the consequences, whatever they may be. If you feel your ds needs a nap before going somewhere, then that is a LOGICAL consequence. I think the problem comes in when people start setting arbitrary rules and consequences without first knowing the situation and child and parent and all the variables involved. THAT shows lack of respect for the child. Logical consequences show respect for the child, and the adult that they will eventually grow into.

I think this is so important. It is, in my mind, my numer one job (well, maybe after keeping them safe) as a parent. There need to be consequences for doing the wrong thing. And children do make miserable choices sometimes. If there are never any consequences for it, then how will they ever learn not to repeat those? Gentle discpline does not mean no discipline. It just means that its not violent or arbitrary. I don't want obedience for the sake of obedience, I want children who make good choices. But if you never show them that some choices are wrong, then you get nowhere.

I agree that behaviour shouldn't be coerced. Or demanded just for the sake of getting your way. But when you are dealing with hurting (self or others), then you are absolutely right in insisting on the proper response. The hard part is that kids don't get it right away, you have to stick with it and be 100% consistant. And if anyone has figured out an easy way to do those two things, PLEASE share!


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
And children do make miserable choices sometimes.

Heck, don't we all?!?
:LOL


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

APMom - I LOVED your post. You totally captured exactly what I feel about parenting. I think I just need to be really careful and examine my own motives to ensure that I *am* posing logical consequences and not arbitrary ones that cause my DS to feel manipulated. We have a similar "safety zone" policy, too. "DS, where are we??" "In a parking lot." "Right, what's the rule about parking lots?" DS sticks up his hand to be held. I love it!!

Grease - I knew you were just using TV as an example. Sorry if I created confusion. And I figured you had told your DS how you felt and had explored how he feels, but it helps to know more precisely what your situation is. I'm hoping the chair time-out works for you. I can't imagine how frustrated you must be feeling right now. I'm sending you good, good, good vibrations!!

Evan&Anna - YES!! Kids have to be allowed to fail! When I was trying to teach DS about stairs (we lived in a 3rd story walk-up at the time with concrete stairs - ouch!!), I took him to a bookstore with a carpeted stair area in the kids section. I knew that if he tumbled there, he was much less likely to hurt himself. As predicted, he did fall and cried. I was rather blase about it, choosing not to amp him up, but giving him all the love and attention he needed. Another woman who witnessed his fall freaked out though, and was practically screaming about the baby who fell down. Guess what? 5 min later (after some comfort nursing), he was right back up the stairs and he NEVER fell down the stairs again!!


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Wow, lots of things to think about here....

First off, APmom98, I reckon you should feel free to post whatever it is you need to post. It helps just to get things off your chest sometimes. Anybody gives you any trouble 'bout getting kicked off MDC & you tell 'em to come & talk to me, okay?? (that's my tough guy voice)









I don't really know much about the difference between coercion v. consequences, but i think i prolly use more coercion, TBH. Working on that one..... However, it seems to me that a nap for a littlie is a reasonable thing before swimming in the afternoon. And I think even a young child would understand that nap comes before play at someone else's house. I liked this phrasing better,

Quote:

"If you don't nap, you will be tired and cranky later and I can't take you to Veronica's house when you're tired and cranky,"
, mmgarda, tho sometimes it is so hard to remember to phrase things in a way that the kids will understand, esp. if you yourself are tired/ cranky/ premenstral, etc. This is the way that I aim to phrase my consequences 'punishments' (sorry can't think of a better word, YGKWIM)..... it's an ideal.... *sigh*

dotcommama, hmmmm.... with some of the scenes you've described with your 4 yr old (the drink in car one sticks out in my mind)........ you're a champ, my dear. Just reading about your little fella's hi-jinks made my blood pressure spike.







. I think you're doing hte right thing, TBH. I'm cool with the not being able to choose the video at the library if he can't behave thing.... Have used consequences like this myself sometimes. It really seems to work if I can keep calm & not yell & just state my case 'this is the consequence, nothing will change my mind, if you choose to continue to scream at me we will leave.' And back it up & walk right out the door if DD (why is it always DD???







) doesn't chillout. On the positive side, she screamed at me last night for something (can't remember, who knows what it was), I looked right at here & said calmly, 'you go stratight to your room for yelling at me, & you can come out when you're ready to apologise'. I've been tightening up on this one. And you know what? She's stopped screaming all the way to her room, she didn't hurl verbal abuse at the top of her lungs at me from her room, no tantrums, & within a few minutes she came out & apologised ...... nicely.....









Usually I get the 'sorry mum' over her shoulder, with a sneer & a flip of the hair. Hello? Is this child almost 6? Or almost 16??? And I don't accept nasty apologies, so we repeat the 'to your room' process......

Stacymom, some thoughts about yelling. I personally think that a lot of the reason why some mums yell is becasue we are under an incredible amount of stress to 'do everything'. this seems to be particularly difficult if you are working part or full time as well. Think about it. What sort of responsibilities do we carry? I know at my house i am in charge of cleaning, half the shopping, half or more of the cooking, I make sure the animals get fed everyday, the laundry gets done, the holidays get organised, the bills get paid, homework gets completed, shirts/bills/excursions at the school get sorted, I volunteer when I can at the school/kindy, I sort out the details of the house renovations, I keep contact with family friends...... someone wrote a book about this type of work, called 'Wife-work', can't remember the author. And then we have societal pressure on us to get out there in the 'workforce' & contribute to society, to utilise the gains that our feminist fore-sisters have fought for.







: As if being at home & managing all that isn't enough. So many women (me included) feel that if they don't stay on top of their field, then the opportunities for work later in life won't be there.... there are so many young folks coming out of Uni these days, who don't have kids & commitments & it's so much easier just to hire them.... Add a long-haired rambunctious dog (got one of those too) to the mix, (on top of doing a PhD full-time, in my particular case), or a husband/partner overseas in a war, or one who's not helpful/not around a lot of the time, or a pregnancy/new baby............ Jesus!! What a recipe for disaster......... No wonder we lose it sometimes, KWIM???

another novella from me..... hugs to you all......


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Okay, finally got all the kids in bed.....I shamelessly used ds' playdate to help tonight! :LOL We usually do the clean up game before the kids go to bed. We set the timer for 15 minutes and race, race, race to see if we can get everything cleaned up in less than that! Well, tonight, we did it with his playdate over, and they got the playroom cleaned up in something like 3 minutes, so I sent them upstairs to ds' room to do that too!! LOL! But I got to vacuum both the playroom *and* the upstairs, something that very rarely happens all in the same day!

So I've been thinking about this *expectations* thing. I know you all are familiar with Jan Hunt, right? Whether you agree with everything she says or not, (I always wondered if it would be that easy if you only had one child, but the fact is that I have three children, all have needs, all have wants, and no one can come first all the time!) she has some really great information on her site. Well, when ds was a toddler, I spent a LOT of time reading. First kid, I had more time....and well, he was/is sooooo spirited, I didn't know how to handle it. He just refused to fit into any mold that ANYONE talked about. From the moment he was born, he just was opposite of everything that anyone said. For a very long time, I thought it was my fault. I got told it was because I held him too much. I nursed him too often. I moved when he fussed instead of letting him "figure it out on his own!"





















The point is, I printed out a copy of "The Declaration of Complete Confidence in Children" I still, to this day, have it on my refrigerator (and we've moved three times since then!) There are two statements that have always made me stop when I get frustrated and angry.

Adult like behavior matures by the time we're adults.

Celebrate your child's uniqueness.................as well as your own.

The first statement is so true, except that we often forget it. I found myself saying to dd the other day "What's the matter with you? Why are you acting like a two year old?!?!?!" in complete frustration..........What the







is MY problem? She isn't even two!!! Of course she's acting like that....that is exactly how she's *supposed* to act! But in frustration and anger, I lashed out.........

But the other phrase........we sometimes forget to celebrate ourselves. Like Aussiemom said, we don't give ourselves enough credit for doing the jobs that we do. We overlook *our* unique qualities, the things that make us determined to do better for our children. We can always (well, mostly) look at our child/ren and find something that we love about them....They are screaming at you because you won't give them cookies for breakfast, well, at least they know what they want and are willing and able to vocalize it. THe other night, ds yelling at me that if I didn't let him out of his room, he was going to yell until my ears hurt? Well, at least he understands that his feelings are powerful. He knows that he can express himself without fear of punishment, like I had. Yeah, I was a *good* kid, after my father *taught* me to be. He was into humiliation along with corporal punishment. FOr example, when I *needed* a spanking, I was made to stand at the head of the dinner table with my pants around my ankles, waiting until the family finished dinner before he would spank me. And then I was made to wear skirts afterwards so that people could see the bruises and know "how bad I was." I was terrified to speak my mind. Of course, I was the spirited one, the one he couldn't break, and that just made him all the madder. And I don't mean this to be a blame my father type of thing, because I honestly have forgiven him for all that stuff. I mean, truly, he didn't know any better. That's how he was disciplined, that's how it was done, he really felt that it was harder on him than on us, and that he had to teach us....Now, obviously, I don't agree with him, since I refuse to raise a hand to my children, but I'm not angry with him anymore. But my point is this....what happened back then, it helped make me a better mother. I learned what NOT to do to my children. I learned that I *DO* want my kids to know their feelings and thoughts are important to me. So, that's what makes me unique. And for tonight, I'm celebrating that.

Come'on ladies...tell me what makes you unique. Let's celebrate our own uniqueness..............as well as our children's!!!!


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

Ok, I have a ton of stuff to post, and will tomorrow, but right now I need to get OFF the computer.

Before I go, though, I just wanted to tell you all my insanely great news.

DH and I *BOTH* got job offers for the jobs we wanted TODAY!!!!!!!! Ideally we want to get back to where DH can stay home again, and this is a HUGE first step. Goodbye poverty, hell-oooooo long commute!!









You guys are great, ya know that??


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Apmom98, that's some pretty harsh punishment you recieved as a child.







I know what you mean about forgiveness & moving on.... I didn't have the happiest upbringing, but most days I'm cool with it.... It is a challenge moving beyond the parenting I learned from growing up. It's what I fall back on (but not totally) when I'm losing the plot & don't know what to do..... I fall back on it less & less as the kids grow up, so that's a good thing.

I think DD is pretty good at expressing herself, at least some days. Here is hte text of a letter she wrote me the other day. "Der mummy, I've move to anuther hause. Love, .....". And no, she hasn't moved out yet- I guess she likes my cooking too much! I guess I should feel proud that she feels like she can tell me things........

What makes me unique? Hmmm... maybe we should start another thread for this...... okay, I'm going to do it. Hope everybody follows along to add their two bobs....


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## FullCream (Mar 24, 2004)

Like dotcommama, when I end up yelling and crying (and banging walls or throwing things - usually soft things, but I still shouldn't throw them!), it becomes painfully obvious why DD also yells, screams, cries and is violent. I'm supposed to be an adult, but here I am tantrumming like a two year-old. What has happened to me? I'm a trained early childhood professional - I know all this stuff about consequences and I-messages and reflecting feelings and positive ways of phrasing stuff. Why do I feel so out-of-control with DD? She's a gorgeous kid. I look forward to collecting her from school each day. She's always pleased to see me. We chat on the way home. And almost the minute we step inside the door, we're butting heads. And there's precious little positive self-talk going on in my head...

School pick-up time.

Thankyou everyone for sharing - I often get to the point where I feel that everyone is doing this better than me. It's nice to get a reality check and realise that many people are struggling.


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## arcenciel (Nov 26, 2001)

Wow, I didn't look for a few days because I was cracking up (not anger, just falling to pieces) and now there is so much here! Not so much positive







but at least there's a place to go....

Dotcommama, it took my eldest quite a long time to adjust to #3 and while it was happening I thought it was never going to come right and then eventually it did. In fact, with one friend our motto is:"this too shall pass" because it all does. Apart from the anger thing unfortunately which just keeps changing shape. Anyway, I wanted to suggest a couple of other things, one is to have faith in ds that eventually he will be OK with the baby. Second, try ignoring him when he hurts the baby. Give all your attention to the baby - pick him up, cuddle him, "check he is alright", and then if necessary speak to ds but give him as little of your time as possible. Third, find some times where ds can be responsible for the baby, helping and doing things that are really worthwhile - helping you get him dressed - you said he is walking, right? so he can't carry him places but maybe there are times he could look after him? Also, I would say it might be a mistake to try and carry the baby too much as it might just make ds more jealous when he can't get close to you.

mmgarda, congratulations on the jobs! I hope things get better for you from here. Extra stress like financial worries makes it difficult to act "normal" with the kids and get on with things. I understand what you mean about consequences and coercion. I think the thing about coercion is that there are some things that we need to make our children do anyway - like holding hands to cross the road, but also taking nap when they really need to - they can't understand the consequences of these things so perhaps we need to "coerce" them into doing these things because WE understand the consequences. It's not the same as coercing them into doing something "that we want them to do" like cleaning up a mess or getting dressed in a hurry, etc.

I keep having to remind myself (and very often DH) that when I am "disiplining" my kids, yelling is really not going to solve the problem because yelling only handles this time which I already cannot change, but what I really care about is next time and the time after. Like if they wreck something playing ball in the living room, yes I am angry, but what I really want is for it not to happen again. I suppose the trouble is that when I am really mad, for a moment, what I really want is for them to feel bad. And that's the horrible part of it/me. And if I do yell of course I just feel bad afterwards - at the really bad time quite a long time afterwards. BUT what I was saying is that sometimes I manage to stop myself because it is more important that the behaviour is not repeated than to yell about this one time.

Another suggestion is pillow fights. The power of the pillow fight should not be underestimated! If you are really angry it is too late, but even when the children are angry or just if you feel tension building up - good on a rainy day when everyone is stuck inside. You can either hit each other with pillows - this is good because if you are careful you can use up an awful lot of energy without actually hurting your children! Or if you have the space you get as many pillows and soft toys as you can find (ones with hard noses, eyes or beanbag insides are no good) and you split into teams (e.g. children against you) and throw them at each other. Again it takes up a lot of energy without hurting each other.

Or sometimes with younger children just wrestling is good.

It is SO nice not to feel like I need counselling just for getting angry. Before I found this thread I was beginning to think that I was the only one and that the only way to stop it was with professional help.









thanks


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## arcenciel (Nov 26, 2001)

*Coercion v. consequences*

I just realised what the difference is between these two. With coersion you are making them do something, regardless of what they feel about it, and regardless of our reasons - whether we are making them hold our hand to cross the road or making them wear a coat on a cold day, it is coercion if they don't want to do it and we give them no choice.

With consequences, there is a choice. We might try and make one of the choices look pretty unappealing because we want to teach them good behaviour - like if they hit other children they go to their room, etc. But they can still choose to hit. If they have to behave at the table to stay there, they can choose not to behave and we then ask them to leave, but there is a choice. It would be coercion if we start yelling and screaming and using our physical/mental power over them to "make them stay at the table and behave".


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

I just wanted to second the pp's endorsement of Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline. I posted about it somewhere at MDC recently, maybe even this thread, but it's so great, I wanted to say it again!









I also wanted to add my two cents about coercion v. consequences. One of the things that Bailey points out in her book is that there are real choices and choices that just look like choices. So for instance, "play nice or go to your room," isn't a real choice -- it's saying "if you don't play nice, you will go to your room." I know the child still has the choice to play nicely or not, but there's a difference between that kind of choice and giving the child two positive things to do -- two good ways he can play, for instance. That's not to say you should limit him to the two good ways you think of, it's just if he's having a hard time figuring out or doesn't even know how to "play nice," or what playing nice would entail in this situation, it can be a big help for him to get some ideas. If he refuses to choose, or keeps on doing something inappropriate, then the consequence (which, I realize, is what the pp was talking about) is introduced -- choose a way to play nicely/safely/whatever, or you won't be able to play here. For me, this isn't just semantics -- I know that I have veiled consequences/punishments







as choices, since I know how important choices are to kids, but I really wanted dk to do what *I* wanted him to do, if ykwim. Oh, and related to that, I've also realized that I'm using the word "cooperate" wrongly. I ask ds to cooperate when we're out or visiting or whatever, and say if he can't cooperate, then xyz (we go home, we won't have time for the next fun thing, whatever). But really, often *I'm* not cooperating with *him*, either. He's tired, he's hungry, he doesn't want to be there, and I'm just telling him what to do. Sometimes this is just the way it is, but I don't think it's fair of me to ask him to cooperate. I'm not sure if I'm explaining it correctly. I just realized I'm often asking him to "cooperate with me," when really what I mean is "this situation requires that you do what I say so we can xyz (get home in time to give the car to Dad for work, get the baby's diaper changed, whatever)." Maybe he doesn't care, I don't know, but I just realized how dishonest it feels for me to talk that way.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Wow so much to respond to here I'll probably forget half of what I wanted to say as I was reading, but oh well.

First







mmgarda - great news about the jobs!

Well it's a new day and I'm ready to try again. I am determined to be kind and gentle both in voice and body with my children at all times no matter how they behave.

If I can't be calm and polite with them how on earth do I expect them to be that way with me? I'm 30, they're _children_! If I can't keep my cool and be kind when angry why do I think they can? Just my thoughts lately.

As for parenting differently from your parents. That's part of what frustrates me about my behavior. I have no excuse. My parents were awesome. Yes they spanked, but not in anger and very rarely. I wish I had half of my mother's patience.

So I realize we've gotten marred down in the negative here, so I was thinking we could all re-post some of our original helpful hints or new hints we've been thinking of.

*How to keep your anger in check:*








Talk positive in your head. Remind yourself how much you love your child, even when they're driving you mad
















Whenever possible, use humor (careful not to use sarcasm). Laughing children are more likely to cooperate than grumpy ones.








Catch you child being good and praise, praise, praise.








When you feel like yelling take a deep breath and count to 10 before opening your mouth.








When you feel like yelling walk into your room, close the door and yell into a pillow, hit the pillow, bite the pillow - whatever works for you
















When you feel like yelling remind yourself that yelling and getting angry about something only rewards your child because they have gotten attention from you (even negative attention is a reward for children). So by yelling you are making things worse, not better.








When you speak to your children smile at them.




































Add more please!


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## Suzannah (Nov 19, 2001)

Excellent posts, everyone...I can't decide if I am happy that so many other people experience such frustration with their DCs, or sad that so many people experience such frustration with their DCs...

Regarding a previous post about being consistent once you choose your "strategy," the answer is pretty much just put your head down and be consistent. This requires a ton of "self-talk," slow ten counts, time-outs for parents, and re-evaluation of your consequences (to make sure they are logical and not punitive).

We are pretty rigid about a few things in our house; hitting, calling names to hurt someone (as opposed to in jest, or playing, and DD knows the difference) and being mean (trying to intentionally hurt someone's feelings, and DD knows the difference). Sunday we had a lovely family day planned, with a long, slow-walking, DD-paced trip to the zoo. We had waited so that daddy could join us (he works Saturdays). DD decided she wanted to bring her stroller, but the answer was no b/c she doesn't fit in it anymore, she can't see the animals, and it's not safe (she's over 40 lbs, and her cute little body sort of spills out of it; she can't be strapped in, and has almost done a face-plant several times).

She threw the mother of all tantrums, threatened to hit both SO and I, and called names. Largely due to this thread and some serious reflection, SO and I didn't even yell ONCE. We stayed calm, explained about hitting. She kept trying. She called names. I laid down the law, "If you are not able to have afun day and act with respect towards SO and I an you, we won't be able to visit the zoo today. Please don't hit or call names. Do you understand?" She continued, zoo trip got cancelled, and about an hour later, she calmed down and we talked about it. She said, "Can we try again next week?" We talked about what had happened, she outlined her own behavior and talked about why she was upset, I validated all of her feelings ("It's really hard to be nice and calm when you're so angry, isn't it. What could you have done instead?"), and we made other fun plans for the day.

She had a great rest of the day with SO and I and has been a peach since. This is a BREAKTHROUGH; we finally laid down the law and acted, and she responded.

Gotta run; my class is here. Sorry for the ramble, but keep on keepin' on!!!


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Oh, so much to respond too!

Melina, congrats on the jobs! That must be such a huge relief.

APmom98, I fought back tears as I read the post about your childhood. I think it is remarkable that you have been able to let go of that anger...what an inspiration you are! And I think the celebrating ourselves idea is awesome. I actually started to do some of that this past weekend. My parents and siblings tell me all of the time what a great mom/person I am and I usually brush it off. The person I really need to hear it from...dh...will never say those things, but I decided this weekend that I do deserve some praise and I'm giving it to myself! It felt really good too! Guess it's a spin on the positive inner dialogue idea, right? The better I can feel about myself the better mom/person I'm going to be.

Dotcommama, great list! I just printed it out and will put it on the refrigerator when I go downstairs.

I love this whole consequences vs coercion thread. I know I've done both. I try to do consequences but sometimes I know it crosses the line. And that is one of the biggest issues I have with my dh's parenting. He does horrible coercion, saying things like, "OK, if you aren't going to ____, then I'm leaving and going back to work." My blood just boils every time he does that! Who in his right mind would ever use the thread of physically leaving to get a child to "cooperate" with them? And it's always for stupid things like he wants one of the girls to come talk to him or play with him right at that very minute.









OK, my house is a wreck, I have way too much work to do, I want to play with the girls, so I have to get off this computer! Hope you all have a yell-free day!


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FullCream*
Like dotcommama, when I end up yelling and crying (and banging walls or throwing things - usually soft things, but I still shouldn't throw them!), it becomes painfully obvious why DD also yells, screams, cries and is violent. I'm supposed to be an adult, but here I am tantrumming like a two year-old. What has happened to me?

Been there!

Here is what I've been learning in *my Parenting 101 Class based on BECKY'S BAILEY'S work:*

WHat happens when people (children or adults) become angry???








2 things: 1) *adrenal system kicks in* = (adrenaline) fight or flight response
2) *Brain downshifts into LIMBIC system* - and you start giving unconscious responses.

When kids are in their limbic system (tantruming, out of control, screaming, yelling, you know what I mean) YOU CANNOT REASON WITH THEM. THe VERY first thing you need to *help them to is calm them down.* Otherwise they won't be responsive to "reason" or natural consequences, or anything.

(I discovered that trying to "teach him" anything during that moment (I don't put him in a Time Out) or reason with him is USELESS!!!! He's not open to it at all.... I'll wait till much later to discuss what happened and he's way more receptive, cooperative and understanding, "Ok, mommy.")

But frankly, the first thing







YOU Need to to is get out of YOUR LIMBIC SYSTEM TOO. (This should answer "what happened to me?")

(Here is a silly little acronoym BB provides to help you do this









*Take a deep breath.* Repeat the following to yourself:
1) I am Safe (that's right you are... We get so angry/furious because we feel challenged and afraid of losing control (of our kids) or being talked back to, etc....)
2) I am Calm
3) I can help my child with their problem.

You need to *Be a S.T.A.R.*
S = Smile (this immediately changes hormone response in your brain)
T = Take (damn, can't read my notes)
A = Take A deep breath
R = Relax

It really helped me to observe the Director of my Preschool talk to my DS. She was always







calm, respectful, in control. (Say my DS was getting upset because we had to leave or someone wasn't sharing the bug case.) Guess what my DS's response was... he began to calm down!!! She would distract him with a story about the bugs or whatever and she REALLY was great.

I found by following these tips (I hope I am articulating them well, if not, I'm sorry) really helped to make me feel better and understand the situation (there is more i don't have time to write now). Now, in the middle of the night, when DS wakes up hysterical, angry and unconsolable, I remain CALM AND CENTERED (and I feel SO MUCH BETTER as a result!!!!) I lost it yesterday (I'm not perfect) but it's getting much better.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FullCream*
Like dotcommama, when I end up yelling and crying (and banging walls or throwing things - usually soft things, but I still shouldn't throw them!), it becomes painfully obvious why DD also yells, screams, cries and is violent.

Yes and no. Yes - children need US to model behavior (calm responses) for them.

No... let's say you never reacted like that (I do - but it's VERY rare - and when I did I always felt like crap







- hence the need for this thread, because everyone feels like crap after they've "lost it.") Your DD will still react that way. WHY? Because she's in her LIMBIC SYSTEM AND kids who *do not have the vocabulary to describe what they are feeling, will act it out*. Another way to say this - *Can a child name an emotion? IF so then the child can MANAGE it!* But we need to model this for kids!!! It is ESSENTIAL we remain calm.

Kurcinka showed a cool demonstration of mixing vinegar with baking soda???? and how it "bubbled over". She said that kids as young as 19 months will say "bubbling over" and that helps THEM to express how THEY are feeling (reaching out to parent for hugs - help calm me down).

Last night I heard Mary Sheedy Kurcinka give a great Teacher Talk and explain the following:

*What happens during Fight or Flight response*
- Breathe accerates
- Heart rate and pulse accelerate

Creates neurostatic - they can't problem solve with you. YOU NEED TO BRING THEM BACK DOWN (but you need to bring yourself down from YOUR Limbic response first!)

Becky Bailey's Principle # 8: Demands That We Be in Relationship with the Child
Part 1. Cooperation based-interaction. If we are in a relationship with a child, we are far more likey to gain their cooperation. We have a choice. We can either commit to working on our relationship with children and spend some private time with them daily, *or we can be too tired, too busy and too distracted, and then be surprised when children do something inappropriate to get our attention.* When we are in a positive, healthy relationship with others, we generally are cooperative, helpful and wiling.

Part 2. How do we get in a positive relationship wiht our children? *Research shows we can reduce oppositional behavior by 50% if we simply play with a child for five minutes a day.* (Board game, read a book, any one on one time, I LOVE YOU RITUALS - tips/ games from her book.)

*GEM - Genuine Encounter Moments*
- Listen without saying anything
- Get down on their level
- Give nonverbal love: touch on back, shoulder or hands
- Emotionally be there with them
- Mirror their expressions
- Avoid always making it a "teaching moment"

*Principle # 3 Adults are accountable as role models* (dang I can't find her book to quote now)

Principle # 4 *Adults Must Maintain (self) Control*

Principle # 5 *Adults must see the world from the child's point of view.* (There is a reason the kid is acting out... try to get out of your limbic response - after she wailed on you (ouch!) in reaction to something in her environment. Sit down and think about your day. What's going on in your house? How can you make it better?)

*Part 1.* _"That kid is out to get me! The child that is "out to get you" is really going a step further. They are out to get you... to feel the way they are feeling._

*Part 2. Two states of being*
- Extending love (child feels rested, safe)
- Calling for love (child does not feel safe, or rested...)

*Part 3. Does the Child want Information or Understanding?*

*Information ?*
Calm
Direct
Rational
In Control
Curious
Interested

*Understanding ?*
Emotional
Whining
Irrational
Out of Control
Withdrawn
Overwhelmed

Yet how do we offer understanding? We don't. We get caught up in our own LIMBIC RESPONSE (just like them) and melt down along side them. It ain't working!!!!

We don't help them. We don't help ourselves. That is why it is essential for YOU







to calm down first.

*YELLING* Here is when I lose it.... I used to really lose it in the middle of the night. He'd wake up hysterical, angry, incosolable for and stay that way for 20min -45-1 hour. I was sitting up with him, talking sweetly "honey what's wrong?" Finally, I'd lose it and yell back at him. The look of terror on his face made me want to DIE and immediately REGRET yelling (and realize it wasn't the right response)! I found that that feeling so much worse for me, than any "relief" found in yelling. I feel SO MUCH BETTER when I don't yell and remain calm, focused and centered in myself. I actually feel in control and stronger and just hold him (mommy help calm me down! - he asks to be held) during his meltdown.

Anyway, in the past few weeks, this hasn't been a problem anymore. I'd wait to the day when he was calm and happy to talk about it. I'd explain that the reason he was so upset (in pain) was that he was holding his pee inside and if he just let it out (instead of holding it in for 45 minutes causing his own pain) he'd feel MUCH better and relieved and could go back to sleep. "Ok mommy." And we agreed, "no more yelling in the middle of the night." "Honey, if you need me, just call for me in a normal voice and I WILL COME. "OK mommy." And now he does! And sometimes he wakes up "Did I yell during the night?" Nope... (praise, praise, praise....)








T Now I have another problem... I've created a monster... I started offering "bribes" to do stuff... "if you do this, then I will do that... Guess what, now HE's TELLING ME THAT!!!!























"Giancarlo, get out of the car now."
"No mommy, I'll get out if you do X for me first." UGH!!!!







Ahhh, parenting is such a journey.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Tanibani what a great post!

Thanks.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tanibani*
"Giancarlo, get out of the car now."
"No mommy, I'll get out if you do X for me first." UGH!!!!







Ahhh, parenting is such a journey.

Oh I've had that problem before also. It's eye opening! "Mom I've been good, now can I have a cookie?" I try very hard now not to offer bribes, but I still do when I'm desperate.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I've actually had good luck with bribes. I used to give my dd a treat for getting in the carseat without a struggle and one day she just started getting in on her own and never asked for the treat again. We've been struggle-free for nearly 6 months now.

Sometimes when she falls she will ask for a piece of the chocolate rabbit we still haven't finished..."Cho-dee ra-dee? I fall down!" Because once I offered her some after a bad fall. It seems to help. I don't mind giving her some. And she doesn't fuss when I tell her no more, or that she only gets one bite.


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

Wow - ok, I'll try to cover it all.

APMom - Wow. I'm glad you have become such a conscientous and loving parent. I grew up with an alcoholic who was horrendously verbally abusive. When I was 11 he told me, "No wonder you don't have any friends! You're such a b*tchy little c*nt, just like your mother!" THAT'LL scar ya! Anyway, power to us for finding another more positive way!!!









Arcenciel - We're on the same page about coercion vs. consequences. THe tough time I have is when the positive two choices (do you want to use the green soap or the orange soap today?) are being totally ignored or denied. Then I end up moving into coercion mode (you can wash your hands, or I can do it for you). Which brings me to . . .

Brisen -

Quote:

If he refuses to choose, or keeps on doing something inappropriate, then the consequence (which, I realize, is what the pp was talking about) is introduced -- choose a way to play nicely/safely/whatever, or you won't be able to play here. For me, this isn't just semantics -- I know that I have veiled consequences/punishments as choices, since I know how important choices are to kids, but I really wanted dk to do what *I* wanted him to do, if ykwim.
So, how do you feel about that? Is that coercion? I think that it is, but I don't know if it's bad or not. That's the crux of my question about coercion vs. consequences.

Dotcom - I LOVE your list and am posting it on my fridge. THank you, thank you, thank you!!! I have what's-her-name's list of 20 alternatives to punishment on the fridge and usually glance at it every day. It's a great reminder for me!

Tani - Ok, I got the stuff about the limbic system and whatnot, but then I started getting a little confused about your other notes. My main problem, however, is that I can't figure out how to get my little guy to calm down. Like me, when he is frustrated and angry, he wants to be LEFT ALONE. If you try to talk to him, touch him, cuddle him, boy LOOK OUT! It really makes things worse. The problem is that he hasn't really figured out how to manage his own feelings yet, so he just winds up crying and crying and crying until I sort of force an intervention, which usually makes us both unhappy. What's a mama to do?? I like the STAR acronym and want to put it on my fridge. Can you try to figure out the missing part for us and repost - it's very helpful! Thanks!!

MY POSITIVE FOR THE DAY
Last night wasn't so great. Driving to pick DH up, DS was trying to tell me about a dog in the back of a truck next to us. He was having a hard time figuring out how to phrase it, so I said, "in the back of the truck" for him. Well, bad move, lady because he freaking LOST it! I realized why and said, "You sound very upset. Are you feeling frustrated because I said 'in the back of the truck' FOR you instead of letting you say it?" To which he replied, "Yeah!" I apologized and said I should have waited for him and that I'd be more patient in the future. No change. In fact, he kept crying and whining all the way home. I valiantly tried to be positive and upbeat, but wound up telling him that if he couldn't find his happy self, I would have to turn on the radio because I couldn't listen to the whining anymore (you know that totally fake crying thing some kids do? Nnnnnnnnnnn. Nnnnnnnnnnnn. Nnnnnnnnnnn.










































) I am sad to report that I was inconsistent and went back and forth between my gentle, comforting Mama voice and my damn it all kid! Mama voice several times. I'm pleased to report that I didn't yell, though!

So, we got home and DH had to be somewhere very soon and I was trying to put a quick dinner together while DS continued to melt. When a friend I desperately needed to talk to for a minute called and DS couldn't be cajoled into sitting down and eating, I put the friend on hold. Here's what I said, "DS, I'm feeling very angry right now so Mama needs a time out. Your dinner is on the table if you would like to eat it. I am going on time out in my room and I will be back in a few minutes." I shut myself in and finished my conversation with my friend. When I went back into the kitchen, DS was sitting in his chair, but still crying (although, much more quietly!). I got down on his level and wiped his tears away and said, "DS, I'm sorry that I got angry with you. I was feeling very frustrated and that's why I put myself on time out. I'm feeling much better now and I would like to eat dinner with you. Would you like to have a special dinner with me in the living room?" Presto - magic night. The rest of the night went swimmingly. DS even ASKED to go to bed. (So clearly he was tired and that was the wellspring for all the frustration.)

Anyway, that's my success story for the day. Oh, and our morning went better than it has in a while. I praised and praised DS for it.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmgarda*
So, how do you feel about that? Is that coercion? I think that it is, but I don't know if it's bad or not. That's the crux of my question about coercion vs. consequences.

I know there are hard-core gentle discipliners out there who are going to cringe at my answer, but. . . to me sometimes it is okay to coerce. I wouldn't say it's the best way - but sometimes the hands just need to get washed, the kid just needs to go to bed - kwim? I wouldn't use it as a regular tool, but it's in my tool belt for emergencies, along with bribes









I think sometimes we need to focus on our goal. Is out goal for the child's hands to be washed so he can go eat dinner or do we want him to learn the importance of being cleanly for the rest of his life? You can coerce or bribe him into washing his hand and achieve the goal of clean hands for dinner, but I doubt it's going to teach the child to be self-motivated about cleanliness in the future. Does that make sense?


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmgarda*
DH and I *BOTH* got job offers for the jobs we wanted TODAY!!!!!!!! Ideally we want to get back to where DH can stay home again, and this is a HUGE first step. Goodbye poverty, hell-oooooo long commute!!


































Congrats!!!!!!!!!!!


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dotcommama*
but I doubt it's going to teach the child to be self-motivated about cleanliness in the future. Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense, and the thing I keep reminding myself is that this is where consistency comes in. If having clean hands are a standard, every single night, before you come to the table, you go wash your hands and face, that when they are 18 months, 2 years, 2.5 years, it's a fight...not because they don't want clean hands, but because that's just the age they are at. But, with ds, who is now five, when I say "Please go wash up for dinner." it's not even an issue, because this is what we do, you know? So coersion or asking for cooperation or whatever you want to call it at the younger ages, it *does* set up the self discipline for things later. And as always, This too shall pass....

And my own good news! Got the news this morning that dh should be home in about 4 more weeks!!!! Only 4 weeks!





















I need to get cleaning


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmgarda*
Tani - Ok, I got the stuff about the limbic system and whatnot, but then I started getting a little confused about your other notes. My main problem, however, is that I can't figure out how to get my little guy to calm down. Like me, when he is frustrated and angry, he wants to be LEFT ALONE. If you try to talk to him, touch him, cuddle him, boy LOOK OUT! It really makes things worse. The problem is that he hasn't really figured out how to manage his own feelings yet, so he just winds up crying and crying and crying until I sort of force an intervention, which usually makes us both unhappy. What's a mama to do?? I like the STAR acronym and want to put it on my fridge. Can you try to figure out the missing part for us and repost - it's very helpful! Thanks!!

Wow - the first thing that popped into my head is that it sounds to me like you have an *INTROVERT* on your hands (my little guy is an *extrovert*.

Introverts get their energy from being ALONE. Extroverts get their energy from being around other people, needs cuddles to cope, etc...








Have you ever read Raising Your Spirited Child ??? She does a great job







of explaining the differences and NEEDS of kids with these two temperaments. It's really eye-opening!

For example, last night she mentioned that *a toddler who is an introvert whose space is invaded (vs. Extroverts who LOVE to have their space invaded with friends) may HIT YOU! to keep you away... because they NEED alone time/quiet time.

If a child is an introvert she probably*
- Needs reflection time in order to figure out how she feels
- Prefers to watch or listen before joining an activity
- Becomes groucy if around people too long
- Has a strong sense of personal space. Doesn't like people sitting too close or touching.
- May talk with family mor than with outsiders.
- Finds visitors invading
- Seems to enjoy time out and will stay there till you tell her to come out.

*If a child is an extrovert she probably...*
- Need to talk in order to figure out how he feels - asks lots of questions.
- Wants to share thoughts and feelings immediately.
- Needs lots of feedback and immediate responses.
- Becomes energized by being in a group.
- Wants to figure out how things work by doing (They don't want to wait for instruction. They just want to start using their hands and thus, get in trouble. A tip I got last night is if you
 






extroverted kid is driving you nuts "mommy, mommy, look at me..." give him something to do with his hands. My son loves playing with THomas!)
- Talks a lot and easily initiates conversation.
- Hates to be sent to time out.

I'm an extrovert. I have an extrovert son. You may be an introvert and it sounds like your DS is an introvert. Ask yourself what makes you feel good when you are upset.

I really don't know how to help you because I don't much experience with handling/living with introverts. Maybe just you being solid and strong (to begin with) would help. And non-intrusive. Let him have his space/crying... as long as you are nearby and reachable if he wants you. Or just verbally respecting his space may help dissipate tension "I know you are upset right now and are not comfortable with me being here. When you are ready I am here for you." You are honoring / acknowledging his need for space.

Kurcinka has a SPIRITED WORKBOOK with lots of examples (she said that last night). Haven't read it, but that may help you too - giving you real life examples and how to handle them.

Exercise: How does your type like to re-charge?
How does your type like to solve a problem?
*a. Introverts need:*
- Space
- A chance to watch or think first
- Quiet
- A break

*b. Extroverts need:*
- Opportunities to talk out loud in order to figure out what they are thinking and feeling.
- To try things before listening to long directions.
- Interaction and activity (if they don't get enough activity, extroverts will create it :LOL )

*c. Essential Skills for extroverts*
- Respecting the space of others - including verbal space
- Listening and taking turns (interruptions during dinner are a HUGE issue for us)
- Knowing that they work best when they can work with others or talk through things.
- Learning to say "I'm just thinking."
- Giving others time to think and chance to take a break.

*d. Essential skills for introverts*
- Letting others know they have "heard" them
- Asking politely for space, quiet or time to think.
- Involving others in key decisions
- Learning the importance of greetings and good byes.

*If your DS "is shutting down" he needs:*
- To be near, but *without* more stimuli
- Stop talking
- Space
- Dim lights
- Pausing

APMOM - Washing hands... well *making it fun, turning it into a game* would be a great way to get little ones to cooperate. You, singing a funny little sink song or something.







I LOVE YOU RITUALS is all about that.


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

Ok, I think I'm feeling better about the coercion vs. consequences questions. Dotcom and APMom - you both put it perfectly. Yes, I'm trying to develop a life-long habit of cleanliness, but if dinner is ready and DS is melting down because he's hungry, then I just have to get those filthy little paws clean so he can eat!!

I just realized I"m cross posting w/ Tani and I haven't read that yet. Need some lunch, so I"ll be back!

Oh, and thanks APMom - I would LOVE some champagne. I'm working out the nitty gritty details, but all should be signed and sealed today! I can't believe your DH is coming home!!! You must be ECSTATIC!!!


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Two year olds! Ugh! She's been naked all day, she is potty training herself and so runs naked all the time at home. We HAVE to get out of this house. Ds is going crazy being inside, and so am I, to be honest. I have to get to the clinic to pick up a prescription before it closes today and she is completely totally refusing to get dressed!!! Kicking, screaming, the whole nine yards. I've tried making it a game. I've tried making it fun. I've tried telling her how much fun she'll have when we do get out of the house (it's almost 70 degrees today, the first time in FOREVER!) and she just doens't care. "I be nakey!" is all I hear from her. I can't seem to make any point, and I've tried just letting it be until she's ready, but the fact is, she isn't ever going to get ready adn it isn't fair to ds to make him wait and wait and wait and wait because she's being a toddler! I hate this. There are days when I just wish I could be one of those *other* parents and say "DO IT NOW!!" and they move....but I don't and they don't and I'm too tired to try to be creative right now. And now, because I started trying over an hour ago to get her ready to go and we're still not ready, infant is getting tired again and wanting another nap and I *still* havent' gotten out. I hate this, I hate this, I hate this, I hate this, I hate this.

So small in the grand scheme of things, but UGH!!!!!


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## Shonahsmom (Mar 23, 2004)

MMGarda,

CONGRATULATIONS!!! That's awesome!!

Everyone,

I just caught up on all of the posts since I last posted. I genuinely enjoy reading all of your words, your fustrations and suggestions. It really is incredibly helpful to be able to commiserate on this topic.

I do try to avoid coercion. I do a lot of choice offerring.

Example:

(nicely) You have two choices. You can take a nap and afterwards we can go swimming or you can choose to stay up and stay home playing quietly for the rest of the day.

There's no negatives in that statement and no threats or attempts to manipulate. I state it nicely and matter of factly; much in the same way that I might ask her if she wants an apple or grapes at lunch. If she then were to choose to stay up, I would let the issue go completely (read not be angry at her for refusing to nap) but stay firm on not allowing her to go swimming. And whenever she might bring it up, I would gently remind her of her decision.

My dd does pretty well for the most part with choices. Again, I put it up to her. She feels the power of decision making and she gets to feel the resluts of her choices.

Can anyone post links to some of these great things you have tacked up on your refridgerator?

Something that helps me out:

I saw this thing on Oprah, maybe 6 years ago. I know it was before I was a mom. I think it was the "Remembering your spirit" segment that she used to have. Anyway, it was a mother of teenagers that was feeling disconnected from her kids. So she needed to find a way to reconnect. She decided that any time her kids were to hug her, she would not let go until they did. She found that they would often hang on for minutes at a time. As a result her kids became more loving and more open and more connected. I know we are talking about little kids here and that we all offer up plenty of hugs and snuggles, but I've noticed that whenever we are having a tough time. if I get religious about this little method of not letting go before she does, we definitely reconnect. I don't know, maybe that comes completely natural to some of you, but it really helps me to do this.

Also, I am working out regularly in a gym which is helping me on many, many, many levels! I am taking a Yoga class there. At the end of the class, during Savasana (final relaxation) the teacher encourages us focus or meditate on something important, a goal, a stress to let go, etc.. I have been deeply focusing on peace in my heart and being the mother I want to be.

My dd and I have had a good weekend and start to this week. Lots of snuggling and cuddling and talking.

Hang in there angry mommas!


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

I'll respond to Tani Bani now.

Re: Introverts vs. Extroverts.

Well, honestly, I have a huge problem with this classification. First, let me just tell you that I have a degree in Organizational Development, so I'm very familiar with various personality types and personality assessments and pretty well aware of my own needs. The reason I don't like the intro/extro dichotomy is that I find it to be way too simplistic.

In general, I'm an extrovert: Loud, talkative, vivacious, love people, rush around, etc. However, in many issues and spaces, I'm an introvert: need some peace and quiet to concentrate, prefer to read to recharge, can;t stand the mall because of all the poeple, want to be left alone when angry. If you know various scales, Myers-Briggs says I'm an extrovert, Big Five says I'm a mix and (shoot, can't think of the name - the other big one) says I'm an introvert. So I know from personal experience that there's a lot more to it!

Basically, I think that DS is just like me. When he is angry or frustrated, he feels very closed in and needs people to get out of his personal space. However, he isn't sophisticated enough yet to know how to turn internally for reflection or how to walk away from a problem so he can come back to it later. My heartache is that I know how he feels, but I don't have tools to help him since he doesn't WANT help at the moment. When he does hit the limit, I try to back off and give him space, but find that it doesn't really work. He tends to escalate and the only solution I've ever found is major distraction, namely, a show on TV. Since I find that when I'm really upset I CRAVE a book to lose myself in, I understand. However, even this isn't working for us lately, so I'm beginning to feel hopeless. My leaving the room completely last night did seem to be effective. Although he continued to cry the whole time I was gone. He was able to calm down and redirect when I returned.

As for "spirited," based on what others have said about their spirited kids, I wouldn't really describe him that way. He is actually a pretty calm and collected kid and his extremely high verbal skills make dealing with him much easier than most, I think. We have been working very hard on identifying his emotions and getting him to identify them as well. We often "get the angries out" by jumping and stomping and "grrrrr"-ing and we are encouraging him to tell other kids at daycare that he needs his space when he is feeling frustrated. It's working, but sloooooowly.

As for making a game out of hand-washing, well it doesn't really work for us. The truth is, he's too damn smart. He KNOWS the goal is to do something he doesn't want to do and he isn't going to be fooled by some silly song. We've gone through this with any number of things. Our whole tooth brushing routine involves songs, animals, play-acting, you name it. And he LOVES that stuff, but we still end up struggling with teeth a LOT.

I think that I am coming to terms with the idea that there are just going to be some things that won't be pleasant. I can feel good about the fact that I am trying to ensure my child's continued health and well-being, that I am being sensitive to his feelings about the process and that I am continuously seeking new ways to approach things. But I don't have to feel bad if those new ways don't necessarily work or don't make things easier.


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## Shonahsmom (Mar 23, 2004)

APMom

I was writing my post while you posted yours.

Sorry you are having a rough day.


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

APMom - DAMN! I am feeling for you! One quick suggestion. Is it possible to just put a large t-shirt on her (one that will cover her, but still let her feel naked) and just let it go at that, or is her potty training still inconsistent enough that she needs to be diapered/fully clothed?

If you can't get out of the house today because the timing just isn't working in your favor, is there any way you can give yourself and DS some other kind of "treat" to sort of make up for it?

Sending you good thoughts, hon!


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## Stacymom (Jul 7, 2002)

I am loving this thread!

I have to tell all you ladies though, that today, when things were getting extremely frustrating around lunchtime/naptime today, and the positive self talk was running through my head, one of the thoughts came "If I yell at dd, I'm going to have to go on the thread and say that I yelled and I'll feel guilty about ti for the rest of the day..." So even being aware of things is helping! (And I didn't yell!







)

Quote:

Two year olds! Ugh!
Okay, I can so relate to this. Sometimes I just want her to be reasonable, until I realize that she's only two and a half and isn't totally capable of being reasonable. I sometimes feel like half my day is amde up of things like changing her diapers, persuading her to get shoes on, putting sunscreen on, etc.

DD: Go outside?
Me: Okay, let's get your shoes on.
DD:No shoes!
Me: If you want to go outside, then you have to put your shoes on.
DD: Okay. Shoes on.

We get the shoes and start putting them on. Int he midst of all this, dd starts kicking and screaming "No shoes!" Huh? Did I miss something?







:

And then of course, we spend up to half an hour getting ready to go outside, and then only spend ten minutes before she wants to come back in.









Well, I need to head outside, but I'll check back later....


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## arcenciel (Nov 26, 2001)

Wow, what a load of wonderful stuff. And just after I had a bad day - I didn't actually lose it, but I kept yelling about little stuff and was really not the mom I would like to be.

Tanibani, thanks for all the ideas. I love the "I am safe", I think that could help me







And I will re-read and try to remember other stuff too.

Dotcommama, thanks for the list and the reminder about focusing on the goal.

Mmgarda, my ds2 sounds a bit like yours. He also cries unconsolably but often needs help getting out of it, if I can get close enough. I find the best thing is to be out in public and then when a stranger comes up and tries to be nice to him he is much happier to be with me !







I read a book in French that is not available in English (Isabelle Filliozat, excellent ideas) and she said that you should just stay "available" which probably in this case means close without touching, but you know what is ok and what is not, to let him know you are there for him. I think also as they get older, they need longer before we intervene, to calm down "enough". I have to admit, now that I think about it that I really have very little patience for him when he starts like that. He is really "in your face" about his negative emotions and there is only a very small amount of whining or going on about stuff that I can stand. Only so many times I can say, "I see you're really upset/sad/... about ...."

APMom98, you seem like a really patient person! I am really impressed how long you have lasted with the naked scenario! I would have given in and yelled a long time before. Or laid down the law....

Shonahsmom, thanks for the hug idea. And the reminder on choices.

I feel all geared up to make tomorrow a more positive day.


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Well, I resorted to coersion. I sent ds outside to play in the backyard with the doors open.....she saw him out.....she wanted to play outside too....I reminded her she had to get dressed......she agreed....I gave her a choice of diaper or panties....she chose panties....and it's been about 1.5 hours and no accidents!!! WOW! Was she working on this? Probably. We're back from our walk to the clinic and now we're headed to the park! Sometimes, they just surprise you to no end!!







We're doing a happy dance now!


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## FullCream (Mar 24, 2004)

Yep! I go into full fight or flight mode when I feel out of control (not just out of control of DD's behaviour, but out of control in general). I'm sure I'd really benefit from Yoga or something similar, but I still don't feel comfortable leaving DS with anyone except DH, and he's gone a lot at the moment.

When I don't yell, I lecture ad nauseum. I say the same thing (in slightly different ways) over and over and over. It drives DH nuts and DD too. I'll know that I'm doing it, but just can't seem to stop. I feel like I have to keep going until I get some kind of acknowledgment that I'm understood and my feelings are recognised. The problem is, the more that I go on and on, the less DD and DH really HEAR me. Sometimes I think the lecturing is worse than the yelling. Sigh.

I used to be so patient with DD, but now I often feel completely exasperated - why do I have to tell her to do things that she KNOWS have to be done (and has been doing for YEARS in many cases)? She's craving attention - we've always been so close, and now there's a baby always around (and she absolutely adores him and is completely trustworthy and helpful with him). But I can't go and help with reading at school (I used to go two or three mornings a week), and I often can't read to her before bed because I'm trying to get DS to sleep. And of course, it's all harder when DH is away. I don't know how some of you military momma's cope for months at a time! I'm at Day 7 with three days left until he returns and I'm stretched SO thin.

Hugs to everyone. thank you for sharing your experiences and ideas.


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## monkaha (Jan 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shonahsmom*
MMGarda,

(nicely) You have two choices. You can take a nap and afterwards we can go swimming or you can choose to stay up and stay home playing quietly for the rest of the day.

There's no negatives in that statement and no threats or attempts to manipulate. I state it nicely and matter of factly; much in the same way that I might ask her if she wants an apple or grapes at lunch. If she then were to choose to stay up, I would let the issue go completely (read not be angry at her for refusing to nap) but stay firm on not allowing her to go swimming. And whenever she might bring it up, I would gently remind her of her decision.


I have a question with this. I have been trying this with DD(almost 3). For example, today she didn't want to nap, so I let her choose to go to bed early, before me, instead. When I reminded her of this at bedtime, she had a meltdown. And ended up falling asleep next to me on the couch. Do y'all think that she's too young to be given choices, or is this just a learning curve for both of us. I know that I need to be firmer and more consistent. Or do I? Where do you draw the line between consistent and being flexible?

How come no one warned me about this part of having kids? LOL. It was all so easy up till now.....

I like the idea of hugging kids till THEY let go. And I know I need to find some me time somewhere. I've been out twice by myself now in the 6 1/2 wks since DS was born, and one of those was to the dr.

Thanks to everyone for clearing up the coercion vs. concequences thing- I really didn't understand the difference. I need to copy down all the books you guys keep mentioning and head to the library. Which ones should I start with?


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

I totally and completely lost it, I mean, I screamed at 8.5 month old dd. I screamed at toddler, I screamed at ds.......................

Last night was a bad night, sleep-wise. Infant got up about 11:30 and had trouble settling back down. Then toddler got up about 12:15 and was up until about 2am. Ds was supposed to have a zoo trip with preschool today, and we were supposed to be there at 10am. I had my alarm set for 6. I got up, it was raining, I went back to bed. Toddler got up at 6:30, woke up infant. Dh called, and then cut me short in mid-sentence (I know when he has to go, he has to go, but I was trying to tell him something important...) I started my







period yesterday afternoon....how in the hell *that's* fair, I don't know!!! I put infant down for a nap. I get toddler and ds set up with snacks and drinks so I can work out. Toddler keeps getting underfoot. Ds complains that what I got him, he doesn't want. I'm just getting a good sweat going and infant wakes up. I'm getting more and more pissed. I get her, set her up with some toys down here, and get back to my workout. Toddler screams that she has to go potty. We go running. I find the bathroom in a total wreck, ds had been making his superman toy float and the sink overflowed all over the floor and infant is screaming because I walked out of the room and toddler is crying because she has to use the potty and I just lost it.

I told infant to *JUST STOP CRYING!*. I told ds that if he made a mess like this again, he would spend the day in his room. I told toddler to *Just hold it for a damn minute!!!* And then I said "I guess Mommy just isn't allowed to BREATHE today, right???? "

And here's the worst part. Ds starts telling me something about superman and I told him to just "shut up and let me get things straightened out!"























He then says "well, you know, Superman can breathe because he doesn't have any kids."








: go ahead, flame away....I failed them all this morning....


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## monkaha (Jan 22, 2004)

Apmom-





















Sorry you're having such a crappy morning. Don't beat yourself up too much-you're only human. Your kids will turn out ok, even if you blow up at them once in a while. Hope the rest of your day turns out better!


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## arcenciel (Nov 26, 2001)

It's true, APmom, you're only human and the whole point of this thread is that we all do it sometimes. I really sympathise with you on that one because sometimes when I get really wound up I yell at our 7 month baby to "shut up". I know it's completely ridiculous and I HATE it when DH does it, but sometimes I just can't think while she's crying and if I can't stop what I'm doing to handle her I get stressed out doing the other thing without really concentrating....

I guess maybe the thing would have been to accept sooner that you weren't going to get to work out and just to give up and improvise something else.

I haven't "lost it" for ages, but reading this thread each day just makes me more conscious of the fact I have been a grouchy mom for ages, I find myself several times each day just shouting orders because I'm just tired all the time.







But I don't want that to be how I am with the kids. People keep asking me if I have any help and I guess I don't really but I don't feel like I mind either. I just accept that the house is a mess and that life is disorganised. I'm ok with most of that, except the grouchy mom part.

Oh well. Food for me to think about. Hope your day gets better APmom.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Well I'm going to go out on a limb and try something new...I'm going to go out IN PUBLIC with dd!







I'm one of those housebound moms who hasn't taken their kid to the store in over a year because I don't know how to deal with her behavior. We almost never go anywhere together unless dh is there too. But today she was asking for a butterfly, so I figured we could go to stores that sell Beanie Babies and see if there are any butterflies.

I'm a little apprehensive, but we'll see how it goes!


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

First - APMom - I'm so sorry, but your post really made me laugh. Not in a mean way, it's just, I can totally picture you in a water filled bathroom with screaming kids and no sleep and, well, it's a total "Calgon take me away!" moment, isn't it? I guess the only thing I can say is that I can't believe you didn't lose it at 2 AM!!! Honestly, I am totally impressed that you managed as long as you did. Seriously. Kudos to you for hanging on that long. YOu know, although we're all trying to retrain ourselves, I think we have to let ourselves lose it once in a while, you know? There's only so much of you to go around. One more month. One more month. One more month. One more month. . .







Oh, and I don't think your using going outside to get your DD to put clothes on was coercion. Seemed like a good compromise to me!









Arcen -

Quote:

I have to admit, now that I think about it that I really have very little patience for him when he starts like that. He is really "in your face" about his negative emotions and there is only a very small amount of whining or going on about stuff that I can stand. Only so many times I can say, "I see you're really upset/sad/... about ...."
I KNOWWWWW!!! [wail] For me, I really have to leave. I either tell him I'll be in another room and he can come get me when he's ready, or, lately, I give myself a time out and either do something I really WANT to do (like read a book or talk to a friend) or I engage in as much positive internal dialogue as possible. Oh, and I count. To like a billion.









Monkaha - NO, I don't think 3 is too young for choices. I think you have to figure out what works for you. For example, I find that the fewer choices DS has, the less in control he seems to feel and the worse it gets. That seems contrary to many previous posts here. (Interesting, isn't it, Grease?)

and Grease - Ohhh! I hope you have a good time going out! I actually find that if I have a day where it's just me and DS, things go so much more smoothly if we DO have outings. I usually plan several things from morning to lunch to get us to the nap point. DS loves to go out. "I wanna run ewwands!!"









Keep up the good work mamas!!!


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Well, it went OK...we went to one toy store which didn't have butterflies, and dd was ok with being pulled away from the tub of teddy bears to go somewhere else. Then she saw this dog statue and wanted to climb on it and pet it for awhile, and didn't want to leave, but eventually I got her to.

Then in the other toy store she spent a lot of time with one of those Thomas the Train sets, and I thought I'd never get her away from there without a scene. I told her every so often "We're going to go soon" and she'd say no every time, but after the third time she was ok with leaving. Then we got a snack, and left for home. She didn't throw a fit at all until we got in the car to leave, which is fine with me because I can just turn up the radio. She usually stops when she knows she can't be the loudest.

So it worked out all right! Maybe tomorrow we will try going to other places.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

That's great Greaseball - I'm sure the more you take her out the more she'll learn how you expect her to behave and soon the two of you will be out and about often.


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

Grease - that sounds like a good time to me!

Here's a typical daily round if I'm doing the home thing (y'all know I'm not a SAHM, right?).

Drop DH off at work
Get mama some coffee (perferably somewhere with not too many breakable doodads!)
Go to the park
Go to the library (snack at park or library)
Go shopping (grocery, hardware, browsing, etc.)
Lunch
Home for nap

Then I get a nice hour or so to relax or clean or whatever. By the time DS is up, snacked and ready to get moving again, it's often 3:30 or so and we just go out into the yard.


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## Shonahsmom (Mar 23, 2004)

Okay APMom, I can one up ya! I know, I know its not a contest. I'm just feeling like such a mean, mean mommy.

I got really really sick on Tuesday while at work. Super nasty respiratory virus thing. By the time I left work at the end of the day and picked up dd, I was a mess. I could NOT stop coughing. I could not complete a sentence without errupting in a fit of wracking coughs. It so so so so sucks when I am sick. Being that I am a single mom, not only is there no one to take care of me, there's no one to take care of dd. I told her when I picked her up, between coughing spasms, that momma was sick and that she could watch a long movie when we got home. That is a super, special treat; we don't watch TV during the week except for like 10 minutes of PBS while I'm getting ready in the morning. So we got home, I turned on the oven to throw in a pizza and I got into a steamy shower to try to break up some of the crap in my lungs. Anyhow, we ate pizza in the living room (another special treat) and when the movie ended I told her it was time for bed. She asked for stories. Now the whole night I am whispering to her in abbreviated sentences because I truly cannot get any words out. I do read to her every single night so it was understandable that she would be dissappointed, but she threw a huge, huge fit. She refused to get her pajamas on. She refused to go to her room. I can't say I yelled at her, cos I couldn't have yelled to save my life and I really couldn't even pick her up I felt so out of breath. So I did the awful and unthinkable. I swatted her bottom!!!! I felt/feel so badly. I've never hit her; I am so deeply against it. I just felt so, so, soooo crappy and so fustrated. I just started crying (which really helped the whole not being able to breath thing), she was crying and screaming at me "You're a bad, bad mommy! You're not supposed to hit me!!!" I went around the house, while she was still yelling at me, turned off all of the lights except fot the bathroom and her room and went in my room and closed the door and layed down and coughed and cried, feeling the world's worst mom but also feeling so angry at her for pushing me so hard when I felt so sick. I mean, I know she's too young to feel empathy necessarily, but it would've been so nice if she could've cut me a little slack and been cooperative.

She came in and layed down with me. We snuggled and she apologized, I apologized. She patted my back when I coughed (so sweet). She fell asleep quickly, but I basically didn't sleep all night. My lungs were just making a racket; I couldn't take a deep breath. I took cough medicine, put on some Vick's.. I tried everything.

I was worse in the morning and basically on no sleep. I had a deadline at work that I felt like I would be really screwed if I missed it, so, stupid me got ready to go to work. My dd was watching PBS when I came in and sat down to put my shoes on. I was coughing my head off and my dd says "Mom, can you go somewhere else? I can't hear the T.V. cos of your coughing." I shot her a really dirty look and continued to put my shoes on. Then dd raises her voice and says "Mom, get out of here so I can hear!" So I grabbed the remote, turned off the T.V. and like the very mature grown up that I am threw the remote across the room. Of course this upset and scared dd so she starts to cry... ugh! It was so awful. I really hate myself for reacting that way.

I went to work and met my deadline by about noon and then promptly took myself to the ER where I was found to have a 103 degree fever and needed two breathing treatments in order to well, breathe. Its just a virus, no pneumonia or bronchitis, my lungs were just super inflamed and spasming. After the breathing treatment I felt much, much better and a lot less crazy. But I feel like such a witch. Last night was better. DD was fine with me not reading stories... but I know that wasn't out of sympathy so much as it was probably out of fear from remebering the night before.

I so do not want my child behaving because she's afraid of me. I have apologized to her a few times and told her that it was very wrong for me to have acted how I did. I feel like I'm exactly what she said, a bad, bad mommy.


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## poisonedapple (Jan 5, 2004)

Wow do I ever need this thread lately! I havent had time to read through all 8 pages, just the first few, but I wanted to drop a hello and say that since the birth of my daughter (5 weeks ago) I feel like a maniac! Ive been working on getting back to myself (which admittedly I yelled then as well) but not like I yell now, or feel. I get very easily stressed, and I feel like a one woman circus.

In most cases its just my natural instinct to raise my voice, its how my family 'talked' to eachother, there were no regular conversations, and I _really, really_ do not want my children to be raised the same. So I keep on working on it, and I like the idea of positive thinking, Im going to implement that in my life starting now.

Im so glad I found all of you, I always felt like a failure AP mama, because I would lose my temper.


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## robugmum (May 1, 2003)

Yay Greaseball! Triumph tastes good hey? Its funny to hear about people stressing out over public spaces with their kids. My survival strategy has always been to be at home as little as possible. I feel like I am a much better mama in public than private. It sounds awful but I really think its true. When I am at home with my kids I am much more irritable, my kids argue and fight more and we are just generally less tolerant of each other. As soon as I can get us all out the door though, everything changes. We all become so much more pleasant. A child that was screaming blue murder seconds before suddenly asks me why there is no frost under the trees? or something. We walk down to the maiin street in our neighbourhood or to the park and all is well with the world. Its funny because I am a SAHM (though I'm not very fond of that term!) and I had all kinds of visions of baking cookies with them, doing all kinds of great crafty things, you know, Little House on the Prairie stuff







Oh well, Cést la vie!. What are your tried and true survival strategies for when its all going haywire?


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

OH, honey~






















































































What a crappy experience. I'm so glad you were able to get some treatment for your virus. It sounds to me like you might have been suffering from oxygen deprivation. Whatever - you were really sick. Jeesh.

I think your behavior was totally understandable. Completely. Your DD will be fine. What you have to do now is forgive YOURSELF.

It's a continous learning process, isn't it? Now you know - next time you're feeling really sick, take a break. Give yourself permission to take care of yourself. I constantly have to remind myself of that, and even then, I don't always listen!


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## robugmum (May 1, 2003)

Hey Shonasmom and spicensnail007, we must have cross posted.
Shonahsmom, that virus sounds horrible! Is there anyone else you could arrange some sort of contingency childcare plan with for when you're that sick? I have so BTDT with my two when I've felt ill, you do have to work the hardest at forgiving yourself and moving on.
Spicensnail, I too, have felt like I didn't deserve to call my parenting AP because I lose my temper.







Your babe is only 5 weeks old! You need to give yourself some time to heal and rest. Can you arrange for some post partum help? Your old self will not have a chance to return if you can't give yourself a break.
Where did we all get this idea that we should be able to do it all and be perfectly loving parents ALL the time?


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## CharlieBrown (Jan 20, 2004)

I am new to this thread but need to be here to learn and listen. Today for the first time in awhile I didn't get upset or raise my voice. Kids were ill so just hung out.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Hello again.

I've been thinking so much about this thread and about how I treat my children vs. how I _want_ to treat my children and how my children behave vs. how I _want_ my children to behave.

I don't remember if I read this on this thread or elsewhere, but it was something about how playing with your children for even five minutes a day can make a difference in how they behave. The statement really got me thinking about how I interact with my children all day long.

Am I playful and happy or am I just rushing around commanding things get done? How many times a day do I ask them not to do something, tell them to stop a behavior vs how many times do I get down and play with them or praise them? How often am I smiling at my children vs how often am I glaring at them?

Perhaps more than just controlling my anger and trying to find a way to "make my children behave" I need to revamp my idea of parenting. I need to be more positive with them. I need to make sure they are getting the message, not only do I love them, but I like them as little people. I'm not sure I'm doing this right now. Sometimes I am so focused on what has to get done, I forget to have any fun at all. I'm just going about my day from task to task.

Anyway, this message is kind of rambling, but it's just been something I have been mulling over in my head. Yesterday I made a point of smiling at my children as often as I could remember. I took time out of the things I _had_ to do and played with my children and you know what? They were better behaved and I was in a better mood and less prone to even want to yell.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dotcommama*
I don't remember if I read this on this thread or elsewhere, but it was something about how playing with your children for even five minutes a day can make a difference in how they behave. The statement really got me thinking about how I interact with my children all day long.

Yeah I said that... author Becky Bailey says that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dotcommama*
Am I playful and happy or am I just rushing around commanding things get done? How many times a day do I ask them not to do something, tell them to stop a behavior vs how many times do I get down and play with them or praise them? How often am I smiling at my children vs how often am I glaring at them?

Perhaps more than just controlling my anger and trying to find a way to "make my children behave" I need to revamp my idea of parenting. I need to be more positive with them. I need to make sure they are getting the message, not only do I love them, but I like them as little people. I'm not sure I'm doing this right now. Sometimes I am so focused on what has to get done, I forget to have any fun at all. I'm just going about my day from task to task.

Anyway, this message is kind of rambling, but it's just been something I have been mulling over in my head. Yesterday I made a point of smiling at my children as often as I could remember. I took time out of the things I _had_ to do and played with my children and you know what? They were better behaved and I was in a better mood and less prone to even want to yell.











Great! You know what??? Mary Sheedy Kurcinka talk that I attended this week focused on just that...

She talked a little about being an *Emotional Coach* and devotes a cool chapter in her book (her talk is right there! but better explained than I can right now.)

*Are you an Emotional Coach or Intimidator?*

*Emotional Coach*
touched gently
was firm but didn't overreact
gave the look
helped him pick up
redirected him
took a break with him
showed him how to stop
used a firm but gentle voice
asked questions

*Intimidator* (When we lose control, does this make kids feel? Does it help our goals???? When our parents treated us like this, were WE MOTIVATED to change? Nope. It made me fold my arms and stay put. Angry and hurt.)
jerked
screamed
pinched
hit
criticized
called him names
wouldn't talk to him
threatened
punished

*The emotion coach*
works with
sympathizes (Kneel down, look them in the eye and softly speak: "I know you really want to stay at the park longer, and you are very sad and angry, but we need to leave now. Hold my hand and let's walk together.")
makes it special or a game (use humor)
talks with and explains

*The intimidator*
Do it now!
threatens
screams
rushes








I bought her new book Kids, Parents, and Power Struggles You can view the table of contents on Amazon. Effective strategies that will help you:
- *Stay connected with your child.* (This is important because she and other authors like Bailey explain that kids are motivated by behave when they feel good about the emotional connection with their parents. I definitely see this with my 4 year old. VS the way I grew up, my mom was very critical, negative, scolding of me, and it made me fold my arms and go to war (stubborn) with her. I wouldn't budge.
- *Bring down the intensity.*
- *Understand why your child is misbehaving.*
- *Stop the tantrums.*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmgarda*
Re: Introverts vs. Extroverts. Well, honestly, I have a huge problem with this classification. First, let me just tell you that I have a degree in Organizational Development, so I'm very familiar with various personality types and personality assessments and pretty well aware of my own needs. The reason I don't like the intro/extro dichotomy is that I find it to be way too simplistic.

I hear you. You are right, it is. Many people are a "blend." But I personally still find that with myself and DS we lean towards one side more, and just skimming her SPIRITED book has REALLY helped me understand my DS's needs.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmgarda*
Basically, I think that DS is just like me. When he is angry or frustrated, he feels very closed in and needs people to get out of his personal space. However, he isn't sophisticated enough yet to know how to turn internally for reflection or how to walk away from a problem so he can come back to it later. *My heartache is that I know how he feels, but I don't have tools to help him since he doesn't WANT help at the moment.*

What about the books????? Look a degree in Organizational Development doesn't prepare you for THIS! Theory, classifications is one thing, actually reading what what someone else has written (_give the Spirited book a chance_) may help you A LOT. This isn't new territory. You are not the only one going through parent/child struggles. THANKFULLY, there is help... unfortunately, it's a matter of finding the right books. But give it a chance. I think you'd benefit from both SPIRITED and POWER STRUGGLES.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmgarda*
As for "spirited," based on what others have said about their spirited kids, I wouldn't really describe him that way. He is actually a pretty calm and collected kid and his extremely high verbal skills make dealing with him much easier than most, I think.

That's fine... but that book will STILL offer insights for *** your *** calm and collected child.


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## FullCream (Mar 24, 2004)

I've been having similar thoughts dotcommama. I even have a plan in my head to try to spend more time playing, doing more smiling/laughing and less rushing round and getting things done. But I'm not sticking to my plan. Sigh. I think a lot of the problem is that DH has been away (he got back a few hours ago. YAY!!) and he's such an involved, hands-on dad that I'm not used to carrying all the load myself. I'm VERY tired, and haven't had enough me time. But instead of letting things go, I become more 'controlling' (but I'm not really in control).

I hope that I'll be able to get myself together a bit more over the next couple of weeks. Then DH is going away again for another two weeks. Based on this last trip, I'm REALLY not looking forward to him being away so long. Although maybe for the next trip, DS won't be trying to cut two teeth and will be sleeping better.

My plan:
have time to myself each day (when I don't have to be doing things for other people)
have time alone with DD to do something fun
smile and laugh more
let things go (what is it that Barbara Coloroso says? if it's not life-threatening or morally/physically unhealthy)


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## CharlieBrown (Jan 20, 2004)

great advise everyone. i will try to put it to use tomorrow.


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## poisonedapple (Jan 5, 2004)

dotcom Ive been thinking those same things since I posted here. I always try to do something fun with the kids, every day my dd and I usually cuddle up on the sofa and watch a movie, and Ill work on knitting her hat she wants. My biggest problem was with my son, 17 mos, I just didnt know what to do with him. I always played with Arianna at that age, but Im used to a bigger girl, if that makes sense, ponies, little people etc. But we've reenlisted our night time book schedule, and if we know we wont get to it that night I make sure to read extra books to them during the day.

Yesterday I only lost my temper once, and it wasnt at the kids but the dog! I did get frazzeled, but didnt yell I tried staying calm. We were under a tornado warning, my husband couldnt come home from work (where he saw a funnel cloud, glad I didnt know until after the fact). But William had pooped while we were in the basement and I didnt have any wipes. The storm was really bad and there had been two tornados near us, so I didnt venture up to get any, and when we got upstairs afterwards his poor butt was red. So we did some naked time, and our dog (grr) came up and licked his butt when I went to get a fleece liner! I yelled at the dog and told him to go to the kitchen. I still felt bad because I yelled in front of the kids, and I feel bad for william, poor guy was violated.

I pray we get lots of







today and the severe weather doesnt come like predicted, its just too much on a mamas nerves!


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

I just posted this as a seperate thread, but after reading here this is where I need to be.....(going to delete other post)

Ok ladies I have having A LOT of trouble with GD lately&#8230;.and I need some serious help. I have been having a rough time life in general - stress, depression, pgcy - just to name a few&#8230;.and it is spilling over into my parenting in a big way. I used to be able to go with the flow pretty well - with only the occasional outburst. I wasn't easy, but it was doable and I felt like a pretty good mom.

But for the past 6 months I just can't seem to do it anymore. DS is now 4 and with it comes SO much more that requires my patience and I just don't seem to have it in me. The constant 'talking back', defiance and just all over DRAMA (and I HATE using those words, but I am at a loss for any other way to describe it) in addition to all my personal issues has just pushed me over the edge. I find my self yelling, screaming - and even spanking - more often then not. The worst part is that when we are 'in the moment' I just don't even care what I am doing&#8230;&#8230;it is like I have absolutely no control over my actions - and after the fact I am scared to death.

I have already scheduled an apt to meet with a therapist starting next week - I defiantly need professional help&#8230;.but day to day I just need to get through.

While I TOTALLY believe in GD and everything it encompasses - I am finding at this point in time I just can't do it&#8230;..and when I do try and it fails I get even more upset, more frustrated, and act even more like a lunatic. So what I really need to find is some way to get through - some tools to use, that may not be the 'perfect' GD tools but will help me feel like I have *some* control over my kids behavior (which I fully understand I don't - but that is what pushes me over the edge) and keep me from yelling, screaming and especially hitting.

Does this make any sense? I need some baby steps to get from where I am now to where I want to be - because I can't do it all in one big swoop. Would it be so bad to move from the awful, to the not so bad, to the pretty good, to the great? I used to read all the 'mainstream' discipline books and scoff at the timeouts, reward charts, ect&#8230;.but looking at where I am now that has GOT to be better then what I am doing&#8230;

So I am looking for any suggestions you wonderful moms may have&#8230;..I am so desperate right now - I have to save this relationship before I totally ruin it for good. I know they still remember 'happy mommy' but I see it slowly slipping away and I just want die. I hate the mom and person I have become and need something - ANYTHING - to help me change&#8230;&#8230;


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

Hi all,

Just wanted to let you know that since I'm starting my new job on Monday, I'll probably be posting a LOT less. But I totally intend to stay with this thread, since it's so helpful.

Dotcom - LOVE your reflections. I have been trying to focus on that very same thing. Seems like maybe this thread has caused us all to pause in the same way. DH and I are focusing on trying to get more "quality" time in w/ DS to make sure that he is actually getting positive attention from us.

Tani - Thank you for the book suggestions. POWER STRUGGLES sounds good and I'm going to see if I can get it from the library.

Grace - on the first page of this thread is a link back to the first thread we started. I know that when we started this (and it's only been a few weeks!), I felt very much the way you have just described yourself and I bet most of the posters here would say the same. I think this forum has really given me the chance to own up to my behavior, understand it's not out of the ordinary, and share tools on how to change what I don't like about myself. This is a REALLY great group of women and I can tell you no one is going to criticize or chastise you here! I hope you find the help and support you need! Please keep posting!

Hang in there everyone!! Hope your weekends are great!!


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Graceoc I want to give you a hug and applaud you for you complete honesty.

Here are a few things that come to mind to try.

When you feel like you are ready to scream or hit don't just walk away from you child, run. Say, "Mom is really upset." Leave the room. If you have to lock yourself in the bathroom, do it. When you are alone do whatever you need to do to get calm. Scream, pound, stamp your feet if you have to. I normally wouldn't say it's a great idea to completely blow up even within earshot of your child, but it would be better than yelling at him or spanking - so baby steps, right?

Deal with his misbehavior when you are calm. Better to let him get away with a "bad" behavior than harm or frighten him, right?

Work on a positive dialogue in your head. This can be hard, believe me I'm struggling with this, but it does work if you can do it. So instead of saying to yourself, "I can't believe ds is doing X again. I can't take it!!!" Say, "I love my ds, I can remain calm, I love my ds, I can handle this, I love my ds, I _am_ in control."

Get a break every day. Even if that means you have to bend some of your rules. Maybe you can allow your child to watch and extra ½ hour of tv each day while you nap, for example.

Think about what behaviors of his really trigger your anger. Work out in your head how you are going to handle that type of situation next time in a calm way. (Don't beat yourself up over what you didn't do this time. It's not productive.) Play the situation over in your head again and again. For example, ds speaks nasty to me, I'm going to say, "I will not talk with you if you can not speak to me with respect and walk away." If ds follows me I'm going to ignore him until he uses a kind tone and words. If he keeps baiting me with his behavior or words I'm going to hum my favorite song in my head to keep calm.

Come here often and ask for help, advice, and commiseration. Whatever you need - we are here for you!


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## arcenciel (Nov 26, 2001)

Domtcommama - I really like your reflection on spending time with the kids. I've also been thinking about how things are so negative and just in a downward spiral so much of the time. Your idea of spending positive time with them is great. The other day I was trying to read my book for a little while when dd (7 months) was napping, but the others wouldn't leave me alone and I was on the verge of doing something drastic; so I stopped trying to read and made us all a snack and sat and ate it with them. Then I sent them outside to play and because I had spent time with them, they were (slightly) better at it. It's true that it changes the whole atmosphere if I spend time with them - preferably before things get desperate!

About "controlling" behaviour, I notice that is what I am all about these days. Trying to control my kids so things don't get too tough. Why is it that although we don't like something another adult does, we can accept their right to do it or at the very least usually handle them in an adult way without shouting and yelling, but when it is our kids we criticise and yell, etc. I can't help feeling that I don't make enough space in our home for our kids - why shouldn't they bring lots of their toys in the living room during the day? Why shouldn't they play music, or make a noise, or make a lot of choices that I don't let them make? Don't get me wrong, I let my kids do plenty of things and have their own place in our home, but sometimes I know I am too controlling and not really letting them live freely here.

Now I'm not sure I explained that well.


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## FullCream (Mar 24, 2004)

arcenciel, that's what i've been thinking too. and even though i know that getting on dd's case about noise, 'mess' etc (aka 'being controlling') makes her more difficult to deal with, i'm having real trouble letting things go. i tell myself i'm not going to say anything, but i do...

graceoc - i know what you mean about your responses 'in the moment' - i often feel like i just have no control over what i say or do when i'm feeling angry/hurt/disrespected. i really like dotcom's suggestions about having a plan in your head to deal with the behaviours that set you off the most. i'm going to try that.


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## stellimama (Sep 19, 2002)

Haven't visited the mothering board in ages and now that I have a 2-year old, discipline issues are at the fore. AND we have a new baby in the family which adds a whole new dimension, as many of you can understand.

I'm happy to read through this thread, and the posts in part 1. Thanks for starting it dotcommama.

I've been feeling horrendously inadequate today and as of late. It's been a stressful week or so. Stella had coxsackie and was MISERABLE. Bianca is deep in her 6-week growth spurt and is attached to the boob and sleepless. Not a good combination. I feel like I haven't taken off the sling in days and Stella, who is 30 pounds, wants me to carry her all the time because she feels lousey.

Anyway, I yelled at her twice this week. I don't think I've yelled at her that many times since she's been born. I feel like an ogre. I feel lots of guilt--that one of them is always getting screwed because I can't do everything at once. Bianca has to wait to nurse, Stella has to wait for her story or not have my full attention when she needs it or whatever. I feel like I walk around bereating myself in my head almost constantly. And that's when I yell.

Just needed to vent. I wish I could hold it together. It breaks my heart to feel anger towards these two perfect creatures. They are all my joy. How can I be angry with them?


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## stellimama (Sep 19, 2002)

"Am I playful and happy or am I just rushing around commanding things get done? How many times a day do I ask them not to do something, tell them to stop a behavior vs how many times do I get down and play with them or praise them? How often am I smiling at my children vs how often am I glaring at them?"

I don't know how to do the quote thing, but dotcommama posted this above and I can TOTALLY relate to it. I have been thinking exactly this all week, especially learning how to be the mother of two. Huge adjustment. I have been saying to DH that we're rushing everywhere, that I want things to slow down, but I have to wonder how much of that feeling is coming from me. I want to be PRESENT. Present with my beautiful babies...

Just wanted to say that your comment hit home.


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## robugmum (May 1, 2003)

Ok, here I was thinking everything was going along so nicely. DD has been in this really demanding whiny stage laytely. I have to do everything for her, "No Daddy" has become her favourite line. I have been getting increasingly fed up with the act. I know its common, but we never went through that particular stage with ds. Anyway, long story short, this morning as I listened to her scream, yet again, for five full minutes that I had to be the one to put her shoes on, I lost it. I guess, somewhere in the back of my mind I was thinking if I make it unpleasant enough she will realise that Daddy is actually better. I know, totally irrational right? Anyway, I grabbed her and stuffed her feet into her shoes grabbed a hairbrush, pulled it roughly through her hair, stuck a pontail in it and basically swatted her out the door. Then, of course, I was even more angry, so I stomped and swore and slammed every door I could get my hands on until I collapsed in tears. Poor dh was watching all this with no idea what to do. The kids were both outside but then ds came in and saw me crying. He came up and in his best sympathetic voice started trying to make me feel better. Mostly I just felt like a monster. How could I scream at a 2 year old? How come I spiral into these totally out of control temper tantrums? I'm 33, not 3 years old.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stellimama*
I don't know how to do the quote thing, but dotcommama posted this above and I can TOTALLY relate to it. I have been thinking exactly this all week, especially learning how to be the mother of two. Huge adjustment. I have been saying to DH that we're rushing everywhere, that I want things to slow down, but I have to wonder how much of that feeling is coming from me. I want to be PRESENT. Present with my beautiful babies... Just wanted to say that your comment hit home.

Thank you stellimama and others who could relate. My issue now is that I *see* the problem, but how do I fix it?

For example, when I went to bed the other morning I said to myself, "Tomorrow you will act happy, smile at the children, not be sarcastic, etc. . ." It sounded great in my head









Well the baby wakes about every hour to nurse that night, so I'm tired. I wake up at 6:30 because my 4 yr old has climbed into the bed and is kicking me while yelling, "Wake up Mommy!" Which not only wakes me, but wakes the baby who is now crying.

So, I get up. I remember what I've promised myself the night before. I smile at the 4 yr old and say good morning, but inside I'm not feeling happy. So I change the babies diaper and stumble into the kitchen and go to get a glass of water. 6 yr old comes in and demands juice. Ok, I smile and say sure. I pour two glasses and hand them over to my children with a smile.

I turn my back to get my glass of water and I hear a clunk and splash. The 4 yr old has dropped his entire glass of sticky juice all over the kitchen. The baby is now gleefully heading towards it. I say, "It's okay." The four year old yells for more juice. I grab the baby and gate him out of the kitchen while I clean the mess - he screams because he wants to be with me. . .

Ok, you get the idea, right? How do you keep smiling through all of this? How do you keep cheerful and happy when all you want is a f#@king glass of water and a chance to drink it first thing in the morning and what you get is three whining children and a floor full of sticky juice?

I've been able to change my behavior, and I guess that's a start. I didn't yell and I was calm, but smiling? happy? fun? - I'm just not there yet.

Any thoughts?


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## arcenciel (Nov 26, 2001)

DCM - I can't say I really have the answers because faced with a morning like yours I would quite probably have yelled !







So you're one ahead of me. I've been doing a lot of thinking about what you said, and then what everyone said about it. I think that one of the answers is to be pre-emptive. Don't expect yourself to be happy and smiling first thing in the morning with 3 children grabbing at your attention before you have a chance to get a drink of water / pee / breathe...... I think the thing is to spend time each day with them. Say "yes" more often to doing things with them, suggest things that YOU enjoy - don't make yourself do too many things that they like that you hate. And then eventually things will look more positive. Maybe instead of smiling in the morning, the thing is to say, "I didn't sleep will and I feel really grouchy and I'm going to get your juice / clean it up / whatever, and then I'm going to get myself a drink of water and sit down for 5 minutes." Of course, the baby won't get that, but if the others do even some of the time, it's a step forward.

I've decided to make 15 minutes for each of my children each day. I think it would actually be better split into 3 lots of 5 minutes but that's what my commitment is.

Which reminds me of something my Mum said, about quality time - she said one of the things that makes it "quality" instead of just "time" is to spend it with them when they want - i.e. don't say "in a minute" and then spend ages doing things like housework, etc.

Which reminds me of something I read in a spirituality thread about how there's always a thousand things that need doing which stop us from meditating, but those same thousand things also stop us from spending time with our kids. There are always dishes to be washed, meals to be cooked, bills to be paid, phonecalls to be made, forums to be written on..... but none of these things are really what is important. If we need to prepare a meal, they can help us (or be in a sling) or at least come and draw in the kitchen while we cook. Everything else can wait, perhaps until one specific hour of the day where we regularly do "our things" and the kids get the message that this time is ours but the rest is for them.....

I am not really putting this up to dish out advice to everyone else. Just voicing what I've been thinking I ought to do, in the hope that now I will start doing it.









Keep at it!


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

dotcommama, pat yourself on the back. If you survived the no sleep, juice on the floor incident without yeling, slamming, or in general acting on the outside like you were naturally feeling on the inside, you had a major accomplishment! I don't think the battle is about feeling happy about being exhausted and harrassed 24/7; I think it's about not making our children feel guilty for us those normal mama feelings. I imagine that every time you manage to get through a difficult situation with a smile, it will get just a tiny bit easier. Sort of like the slow steps it takes to reprogram our inner dialogue.

I can SO relate to the comments you all are making about being in the moment and just enjoying our children. I have had days when I know I have not been much fun to be with, and that just sucks.

Have any of you implemented ways to let your older children be more responsible for their own basic needs? I've done a few things, like buying smaller juice and milk containers (quarts instead of gallons) that my 5-yr-old can pour herself. Plastic cups, bowls, and plates are on a low shelf in the pantry along with snacks I don't mind them getting themselves and breakfast cereal. My 5-yr-old will often get juice and cereal for herself and her 2-yr-old sister rather than waiting for me to come downstairs. I also have a bag of rags hanging inside a cabinet shelf so my children can clean up anything they spill. They remember to do it enough of the time that it helps. My older dd usually remembers to bring her plate/cup to the sink when she is finished eating, too. These are little things but it's amazing how much it can help me mentally just to have a bit of help from them.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

I hear you all about trying to be present in the moment with my children..... I'm frustrated, because how the heck do I do htat at 8:45 am, DD needs to be at school by 9, DH & me to work, DS to kindy-- like this morning. DS didn't want to get dressed. I offered him a choice of what to wear, he chose none of the above. So i said, that's fine, I'll have to choose for you so we are not late this morning. He was fairly okay with that, I was helping him get dressed & wham! I get an almighty kick in the centre of my chest as he sits on his bed. I got angry. GRRRRR. Didn't totally yell, but definitely rising menace in my voice. I guess I'll have to be happy with that as an improvement for today.

Dot- I don't know how yuo get as far as you do without yelling.







And if I think about it, I mean, is it too much to ask of us to expect that we should face deliberately dumped juice with a smile??? Isn't calm good enough? Dunno- thinking aloud here....

I really liked Fianna's suggestions of getting the older children more involved in getting things for themselves. It does help, even little things like bringing your dirty dishes to the sink. Next challenge at our house- PLACING the dishes in the sink, rather than throwing them.









And APmom98- how are you doing today, sweetie? Any news from your DH?

Gracoc- I'm thinking about baby steps..... Dot had some great suggestions, I thought..... except I'd prolly put the TV on for an hour!


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## arcenciel (Nov 26, 2001)

Aussiemum, I think the thing about 8.45am is not to expect any miracles (because I'm sure you were...) but maybe after spending time with them having fun each day and "just being" then one day at 8.45am we wouldn't feel so stressed, or if we did the kids - at least the older ones - would be in a better place to hear us. Maybe.

I had a strange day today. Spent less time trying to do my stuff and more time just giving in and being with the kids. Read a few stories at times I wouldn't normally have and even played some cards. I felt I was enjoying being with my kids more than I have for a while, which was great. But somewhere in between I lost my temper with my eldest when he didn't listen to me when I was telling him not to do something, and then he jumped on a pile of clean washing (not intentionally, just casually) and I hit him.

At first this thread made me feel more normal, but the more I think about my behaviour (even before today) the more I think I should worry about it, and I really think I have to get some help. I can go weeks without laying a finger on them, and I have never really hurt them, but I think I'd like to keep it that way.


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fianna*
I think it's about not making our children feel guilty for us those normal mama feelings.











This is something I've been really trying hard to focus on the last couple of days. It has hit home for me because ds is starting to say phrases he's only heard from me the one about Superman being able to breathe because he doesn't have any kids and then I started to say something and stopped myself (I never get a moment to myself) and I said "I never..." and he completed the sentence. A real eye opener, let me tell you....

It's okay to feel angry, frustrated, sad, whatever...what's *not* okay to me, is that he's internalizing *my* feelings. THAT IS NOT OKAY> I have to change that.

Something I tried, just for today and it seemed to help is that I lowered my expectations. My expectations of myself, I mean. Usually, my goals in the mornings are to get everyone changed, washed up, fed, the laundry started for the day, etc, etc, etc. Then, I focus on getting my workout. I know that I always feel better after I workout, and so I have been using that as my *get to* goal, if that makes any sense. Then, it's naps/lunch/shower/etc, and then after the girls have napped, we try to get out and do something, whether it's the park, or the library or the indoor playland, or whatever. Today, I didn't focus on getting my workout first thing. In fact, I didn't end up working out until about 3pm, usually, I'd be all pissed off by then and too frustrated if I did get the chance, I'd be so angry, I wouldn't do it....but today, I just tried to say, Okay, this needs to happen now, I'll get my workout later. And everyone seemed to be in a better mood, the day ran easier, the girls took naps. Granted, I *just* got out of the shower...which means I stunk for the last 6.5 hours!







: :LOL but still. I had the first day in a very, very, very long time that I didn't yell and I didn't cry.

And I figured out that I tend to internalize things. When I get angry, I get more angry at myself for allowing myself to get angry and then I get more angry that I'm letting myself get angrier, and it's just this cycle. In fact, today, I was on the phone with my mom and ds kept making a lot of noise. I'd asked him three times to be quiet, but he wasn't listening. I gently told my mom that I had to go and then I took his noise maker away from him. He pitched a fit, and I just stood there. He screamed, jumped around, yelled some more, tried to push me, just having a fit. And I stood there. I let him go. I didnt' try to talk to him, I didn't try to reason with him, I didn't try to yell over him to make him stop....and after about 5 minutes, he said "well, can I have it back tomorrow?" and I said "Yes you may." and he said "Can I please watch a movie?" I was totally amazed at how it worked, just my being able to STAY CALM and not let myself get into that I'm angry at him, I lose my temper, I get angry at myself, angrier at him, even angrier at myself cycle....

Anyway, just some things that have been going through my head tonight...I'm tired and headed to bed. Here's to a positive GD day for all of us tomorrow!!!


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

APMom98 He screamed said:


> See, I think this speaks volumes to why it is so important for us to support each other and push each other to overcome our own anger! By staying calm you allowed your son a safe place to present his own emotions! And once he was able to get them out of his system, he was done with them. That's the healthy way to process our feelings, right? Big congrats on being able to remove yourself emotionally from his situation and just be a calm, safe harbor for him.
> 
> I see my girls having to bury their emotions when mine take over, and I hate it. It isn't fair that because I'm bigger and louder and the one with the power that my emotions are more important than theirs. I have watched my 5-yr-old play peace-keeper; I've had her apologize for her 2-yr-old sister's behavior in hopes that she can keep me from being upset. I can't tell you how small that made me feel. Of course I immediately got on her level and reassured her that it wasn't her job to keep mommy happy, that everyone gets angry, that I love her and her sister no matter what they do, yada, yada, yada...but I still felt about the size of an ant.
> 
> Today was a good day for us. We had a lot to do but I focused on making it fun and giving warnings before I got angry with them. We put on dance music while we cleaned up the house. We played games in the car while we ran errands. We went to my sister's house this afternoon and spent hours eating outside with family and friends and swimming in the pool. I was in the pool with my girls playing instead of hanging out with the grown-ups and we had a blast. We didn't get out of the water until after dark. My girls and their cousins were so appreciative of us all just playing together and having fun. I wish all days could be this good. But we take it one day at a time, right?


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## gratefulmom (Jul 5, 2002)

HI all, I am a lurker here and need to be more active. I have a now 2 yo and a 4.5 month old. I used to be such a happy, calm person and I feel that I have lost myself to sleep deprivation. I never imagined that I would yell at my children or become soo frustrated that I would curse.
I am trying rally hard to not get angry or get angry but not yell and get crazy. Reading "Kids are Worth It" right now and it is helping. If its not life or morraly threatning or unhealthy I try to let it slide as a learning experience. But when DS1 hits or jumps on the baby I lose it. I try and try to say we dont hurt others, please be gentle, etc. He is not doing it out of anger I think he is doing it for attention??? or just a reaction.
Thank you to all, reading your posts helps out so much.
I have felt so bad about myself lately, wanting to just run away at times. Part of it of course is no sleep and the baby seems to be nursing constantly and not sleeping at all at night.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

gratefulmom







You've got a new baby and there's going to be an adjustment period for awhile where things are a bit crazy, but you'll get back on track. Keep trying!

I can totally relate to the older child pushing/hitting the baby to get your attention. I'm still working on this with my four year old. So far the only thing that has worked is when he hits he is immediately removed to his room with the door shut away from any attention, positive or negative, for about 5 minutes. I know that many people here would find this not gentle enough, but it has been the only thing that has worked for us. I am also trying to give him lots of one-on-one attention whenever I can (I have three children, so this is a bit of a juggling act), but it does help alleviate the jealousy and therefore the motivation for him to hit/push.


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## mosky22 (Jan 4, 2004)

Hello Mamas,

I haven't spent too much time in this forum, so I never saw this thread before. I read through several pages. Boy can I ever relate! I have been having serious ANGER problems. Not at dd, but with dh. My husband and I have always bickered a lot. Well, it wasn't untill dd was born that we both realized that we acctually argue a lot. He is a total passive aggresive and uses sarcasim which drives me completely batty. I am a yeller and I raise my voice and scream when we argue. I have never yelled at dd the way I yell at dh. But she has definalty seen more that I ever wanted, of us argueing with eachother. We tried to reason that it was okay as long as she also saw us put things back together. And that it was important for her to understand that confict get resolved. Well that is all well and good, but lately my fuse has gotten much shorter.

So my big challenge; to not argue and raise my voice with dh.
As far as the adventres in toddlerhood. DD is 20 months and we are just starting to see tantrums, yelling back at us, telling us "NO" and the works. However the stange thing is that dh and I are handleing it completely differently. I seem to be able to stay calm and talk to her and dh seems to get agitated by her defiance.

So far I do not have a problem with my anger directed at dd. I'm sure that there have been a few times where I raised my voice at her or sqeezed her to tight. But not to the extent where I think I have a problem.

For the most part I practise GD. My big thing has been mirroring dd feelings, so that she can feel acknowledged. I do this because that has always been a big deal to me, to be acknowldged. I have also been letting her have her feelings (tantrums) without diminishing the reason why she is so upset. Also we have been doing a lot of, If you do not do X then we will have to do Y. Such as if you do not sit down in the chair then you will have to get down. Things like that. The big one is if she can't listen and do what mommy says while outside, then we will have to go inside. I don't know if that is coersion or what. But I think she understand "cause and effect" well enough to understand that there are consequences for her actions. I do try to warn her several times, and try to see if she is understanding the warnings.

Anyway, I am so glad to find this thread. I could really use the support. Just reading some of the posts gave me a chance to refect. Something I definatly needed.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Just checking in- it's not been too bad at our house the last few weeks.... oh, I did get a little cranky this morning (we were a half hour late for everything), not too bad- I think I only said 'sh!t' once & it wasn't directed at anyone in particular, just life.....

I'm doing charts for the kids, to try & help them take responsibility for their own actions. Or maybe it's just sheer bribery, but I don't care because i think it's been a week now that DS has slept through (he's almost 4, in case you're wondering







) Knew in my heart that he'd sleep thru before he went to the high school prom.....







DS now has his new wooden train, & has decided that he doesn't need the chart anymore to stay asleep, so now DD wants her own chart. She's working on 'attitude'. This one is a little more vague.... basically I tell her that she can speak her mind about anything, but she may not scream at me & use a rude voice while doing it. I wondered if maybe this was too complex for an almost 6 year old..... until I asked her to re-state something in her 'nice' voice that had previously been shouted at me. I didn't know she had such a lovely speaking voice.....







So, for now, things are okay at my house. WOnder how the other folks on this thread are going? Gosh, has it really been a month since this thread was so active??


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## arcenciel (Nov 26, 2001)

While we're catching up...

I've had an awful month. Things just got worse and worse. I was really clear that I didn't want to scream at the kids or hit them ever.But I just kept getting angry and losing control.

The good side is that it made it abundantly clear to me that I couldn't cope on my own and so I have started seeing a therapist. I've only been twice but I'm optimistic - and since the second visit, a lot more patient.









Traced all the anger back to not being allowed to express it as a child....

Now I'm all caught up with dh who has been behaving badly with the children on and off for months and I don't know what to do about it. Mostly that's for another thread, except that I am trying really hard not to yell at them to keep him happy.


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## amebt (Jun 26, 2004)

I too, am a yeller.

I am brand new here (this is my first post) and I really need this thread. Lately I feel like I am yelling too often at ds (3). I am having internal issues and I think my anger towards myself affects my feeling towards my boys. I have been "catching" myself when I am about to yell and I think "is what happened a reason to yell?" That works sometimes, but sometimes it doesn't.

There are so many wonderful ideas on here. I can't wait for ds to come home (he's with his bio-dad). It's almost like I have an inner sense of peace.

Thank you Mamas.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

amebt


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

You know, what is it with posting a success story (calm, happy mama for the last few weeks).... only to have it all explode this morning???







:







:







:







:







:

Not too bad, but I did yell, & I did get grumpy, & I did rip into DD this morning with a tirade about how I've got X, Y, & Z to do in the next 30 minutes, & do you think I want to spend my entire life waiting on you hand & foot?????? (thanks for the phrase, mum







) She was being whingey & demanding, but, DAMN IT! I'M the adult here & i'm supposed to be in control!!!























I did redeem myself somewhat by calming down & doing her hair nicely. Not the pattern I'm after tho...

ah well.... feel a Bridget Jones line coming on.
Diary entry: resolve to do better this afternoon. Will not chain smoke ciggies in the backyard trying to stay calm. Will not drink more than 10 cups of coffee....


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## mosky22 (Jan 4, 2004)

I can't sleep. I got so angry tonight that I had to refuse to touch dd. I couldn't hold her or comfort her. It is breaking my heart to think of her standing there saying "mommy mommy mommy". She just wanted "hugs". It is our toothbrushing routine that is causing us MAJOR problems. The thing is that up until recently toothbrusing was not hard for us. I did not have to restrain her. She would stand up in front of the mirror, on a step stool. I would just tilt her head back over my knee and brush. But now she is too tall for this. I have just realized that the head tilting has been causing her discomfort and even pain. This could be why she won't tlit her head back for rinsing her hair either. Anyway, I am just so ashamed and dissapointed in myself. I have been forcing her to tilt her head back while holding her in my lap. We have been doing this for about 2-3 weeks. I have only just now realized that I have been really hurting her. And I am so upset about it.





















. We had such a good thing going with the toothbrushing and now it is ruined. My dd is such a sweet and intelligent child. I just hate having to force her to do anything. I thought that what I was doing was better than holding her down on the bed, but now I guess I will have to try that. I just hope that I haven't completely lost her trust when it comes to brushing her teeth. This is so hard on me. I feel like it absoulutely ruins our whole day. She has such beautifull teeth too.

I am just at such a loss here. Now my anger has turned to tears. I am practically bawling. Back to how my anger surfaced. I was getting so frustrated because nothing was working for her to let me brush her teeth. She was kicking and screaming. I had to just put her down and not hold her at all, for fear of hurting her. I absolutely DO NOT hit her ever for anything. But I have on occasion sqweezed her very tight. But it was so hard for me to look at her crying and not be able to pick her up and hold her and comfort her. I just feel like I failed her somehow.


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

I've actually been really, really proud of myself lately and that's why I haven't posted, but I just had to respond to Mosky.

I went through a very, very similar experience over teeth brushing. What was fun and easy became a nightly trauma that left everyone exhausted and furious. I also resorted to having to hold my ds down and force him. It's not fun. Here are my thoughts for you:

1) It has to get done and it's good for her, so give yourself permission to be a bit strict about it. That said, I'm so sorry you've discovered you were causing pain. I know you didn't mean to and it sucks to find something like that out. Now that you know, you can change it, which leads me to . . .

2) Alternatives. I found searching the archives on the dental forum to be SOOOOOO helpful in working through toothbrushing angst. If you don't have time, some tried and true things that work for us are a silly toothbrushing song, encouraging DS to make animal sounds that require an open mouth (roar like a lion!!), and letting him choose where he wants to brush. He often wants to lay down on the couch or our bed, and it works really well. The more control I can give HIM over the situation, the better it goes. Of course, it doesn't always go swimmingly, but it isn't such a struggle. Maybe with your DS you can do it like, "Hey! We're going to do something really cool tonight! Brush your teeth at the kitchen sink!!!" Be really positive!

Good luck. You are NOT a bad mommy!!!!


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Mosky--






























Whew! It sounds like the toothbrushing has really got the better of you for the moment. Melina, those were some great suggestions. It's nice to hear you're doing well.









Not TOO much to add, just wanted to say that I think it's really important to feel like it's okay to walk away for a bit if you're really angry. I do it too. the other night DD was half in bed, waiting for a song, & she was giving me nothing but, well... lip & grief.... her usual verballing & rudeness..... & I had to just walk out of the room, turn off the light, close the door, ...... no song, no good night, no I love you (our usual routine).... I put DS to bed, then came back to her after about 10 minutes. She was crying quietly (unusual- normally she'd be screaming as loud as possible), & sitting on the edge of the bed. I felt horrible, but I lay down next to her & we talked -- calmly, unbelievably-- about why I had to walk out without saying anything. She had a chance to tell me her feelings were hurt, I had a chance to say sorry for hurting her feelings & we had a looong talk about walking away when you are so angry that you think you might say or do something you'll regret later.

Things were better at home this AM, BTW.....

Hope some of this helps a bit, Mosky......


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Sometimes I find it helpful to look at the "big picture." As in, what would be worse - letting my kids get away with not brushing their teeth, or me hitting them? If I really think I'm going to hit them I just have to get away, even if that means they don't get bathed, don't get their teeth brushed, etc. I can always come back and try again later.


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

ITA about giving yourself permission to walk away. Last night I was really hungry, am ovulating so hormones on high, and was having a stressful point. DS gets really whiny and pissy and it just sends me over the edge, so I took a deep breath, put my hand on his head and said, "I'm going in my bedroom now because I need a TIME OUT." He looked at me and said, "Ok, Mama." Awesome.

Oh, and also, we've been doing deep breathing to get under control and he is starting to do it on his own when he's hurt or really upset! I LOVE it!!!!! Of course, I honestly have to thank a recent episode of Blue's Clues for that. Steve says when you get frustrated to, "Stop, take a deep breath, and think about what's frustrating you." God forbid DS learns that from ME!


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## mosky22 (Jan 4, 2004)

Thanks Mamas,

Every little bit helps. It took a lot for me to even open up about what happend. I am a very private person. When I read through this thread I felt comfortable sharing.

We are going to try brushing teeth in some new locations. Also, I think I am going to split it up into morning and night brushing. Previously we were just brushing at night. I think it is a lot to handle at night, when we are both tired.

Something else is going on with me too. I have been really irratable and snapish all day. I haven't had a cycle in a 2.5 years due to pregnancy and bfing. But for several months I have felt like I still get PMS. So I maybe having some hormonal fluctuations too.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

I occasionally check in with this thread and have found it really helpful to keep the "big picture" in mind.

Wanted to post to Mosky-







We've had a lot of hard times surrounding toothbrushing, too. I know that's not necessarily the point of your post, but if you want some suggestions or moral support in this area-check out the dental thread. There are a lot of people like you (and me!) that have had to restrain their DCs in order to brush. I don't like to force DS to do much, but this is a necessity-if you don't want their teeth to rot!

Best wishes to you...


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## Mother2Amaya (Jun 4, 2004)

Just joining in. I think this thread was made for me. I am really high strung and I think the anger comes from being so frustrated with my job, my debts, etc. I direct my anger the wrong way, that's all. I need an outlet!


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## mamamoo (Apr 29, 2002)

Just wanted to join in here...I want to go back and read the posts, so I will be back, eventually. LOL I am a yeller, big time! And want to stop, so here I am.







Debi


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## Anesidora (Feb 16, 2004)

I could not have happened upon this thread at a better time. I did so much AP research the first year of DD's life and learned so much. Now that she is 20 months old it just seems that I hardly have any time to clean the house and pop on my boards, much less read as much as I need to about GD. I am so glad I opened this thread this morning. I am definitely a yeller. I HATE it. I realize I don't handle stress very well. I know this about myself. My PMS symptoms got so incredibly worse after AF came back post-partum. I am currently using progesterone cream two weeks out of the month to help tone down these anxiety symptoms. It has helped. I honestly don't yell as much since using the cream. It's amazing. However, my anger still gets the best of me some days. I am really trying to better myself so that I can be the gentle kind of AP mother I want to be.

I am going to start trying the positive talk approach. I think this might help me. I feel so guilty when I yell at my lil' DD. She is a high-needs child and demands my attention 24 hours a day. We are still nursing very often, co-sleep, and the brunt of all child care duties fall on my shoulders. So, oftentimes I am stressed out just by trying to care for her while keeping my house clean for my family. Just that is trying for me. Sometimes I feel that I am not superwoman enough like other women. I only have one child for goodness sakes and I can't even handle taking care of her and the house without bugging out. I just think I have a very low stress tolerance level. But like I said I am really trying. This thread has helped me out tremendously... kinda gets me back on track as to why I wanted to AP in the first place. I tried so very hard that first year and am so proud of myself. I want GD to work in my home and be an extension of the AP mothering I have already set in place.

Sorry for the novel but I have just been feeling so lousy lately about flying off the handle. It surely helps to have other supportive mamas out there who are going through the same thing as me. I have never spanked her. DH slapped her hand one time and I had to remind him that we agreed not to hit at all. But I feel that yelling at her is just as damaging as spanking her. It's hard to keep your cool 24 hours a day. Hopefully by getting back here on the Mothering site I can get my mind back on track as to how I really want to mother my lil' girl.

Thanks for all the ideas ladies. I will definitely keep updated on this thread!!

What are your very best suggestions as to books to read on toddlerhood and GD? I have read The Discipline Book by Dr. Sears. I need something more.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anesidora*
What are your very best suggestions as to books to read on toddlerhood and GD? I have read The Discipline Book by Dr. Sears. I need something more.

How to Talk so Kids will Listen and Listen so Kids will Talk

How to Behave so you Children Will Too


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## robugmum (May 1, 2003)

Anesidora
My all time favourite parenting book is....
Becoming the Parent You Want to Be... By two women, I think one's name is Elliot (?) Its a fabulous book, very empowering and not judgemental. It really helps you to clarify your own beliefs about discipline (and everything else) and helps you find solutions and ideas that will suit your own family without preaching about one particular approach.

I haven't contributed much lately. On good days, I don't feel the need and on bad days, well, you all know what the bad days are like!
I have a question for you all though:

What is your bad parenting habit? I mean, what do you do when you're really angry and can't think straight, when all the oxygen is drained from your brain and you're just running on instinct?
Please let this be a place of support, I think it would be good if we could all feel safe to tell the truth. maybe we all have some wisdom to share to help each other break these habits.

I'll go first.....

When I'm really angry I scream, in the most horrible of voices.
I tend to grab my kid's hands REALLY tight and drag them to where I want them to be.
When I've been really really angry I have swatted my ds butt as I've sent him upstairs to his room.
There have also been a couple of times when I have hit my kids. When they have hurt me in their own anger, I seem to have this awful knee jerk reaction to hit back.
I always apologize to my kids when I feel like I've acted inappropriately but I would really like to learn some new ways of calming myself in the moment, before I yell or scream or grab or hit.
It feels really strange to write this stuff down, Please, let's be gentle towards each other. Does anyone else want to answer?







:


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## arcenciel (Nov 26, 2001)

Anesidora, I realised that I was often getting angry because the house was a mess. I would yell about little things they did because I would know it would cause me extra work. I don't know why I expected them to understand, why would one more toy / crumb make a difference when the place was already like a bombsite? Anyway, in a different section somewhere I read about the Flylady and she's been making a difference in my life for the past 3 weeks! My house is not immaculate, but the idea of routines works much better than I could have imagined. At first I thought I was turning into a neurotic cleaner, but it is really the opposite. Because I know I will be vacuuming again next week, I am much less stressed about the mess on the floors. Because things feel under control, I don't feel like I am about to lose it.

I now have 3 dc, but I also felt as bad and out of control with one as you do. There is 16 months between my first 2 and I didn't start feeling like I was in control of my life (or my house) until ds2 was about 2 and a half! You'll get there in your own time. If others seem more in control in some areas, they will be less in others, don't doubt it!

Robugmum, I am worse. I said a while back that I have started therapy because I actually kicked ds one time. It didn't hurt him but when you're 4 and your mum kicks you what kind of consolation is that? That was what really got me thinking I needed help coping. It's early stages at the moment so it hasn't really made a difference, but it's definitely the right thing to do and I'm confident that it will help in the long run.

Perhaps, squeezing them hard is your way of NOT hitting them, or perhaps you should already have stepped back and tried not to touch them. I think that in those situations yelling is better than touching (for example if you need to stop them doing something but are too angry). But since yelling "like that" is not great either, I don't know how you do it when you're worked up? When you're feeling resourceful there are a million things to do, but when you're on the verge of.....???


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## robugmum (May 1, 2003)

You are so right arenciel,
I think squeezing is my way of not hitting. I am a very physical person. When I am angry I seem to need some sort of physical relief (read slamming doors, hitting walls, etc.). I feel that the squeezing gives my kids such a mixed up message. I want them to associate me holding their hands with loving guidance, not bone crushing pressure!

I need to figure out a way to stop myself in the moment and step back, just like you said. Problem is, in the moment it often seems impossible. I meant it when I said that all the oxygen drains from my brain. That's actually one of the body's physiological responses to anger. We go into fight mode and oxygen flows away from the brain and into the muscles. This would be really useful if I had to wrestle some wild beast to protect my babes, less so when its the kids who are driving me crazy!! When I'm calm and everything is going well it seems like it should be easy!


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## bobica (May 31, 2004)

Oh mamas, thank God I found you! I've been having SUCH issues with anger & yelling lately & i think i've only really become aware of it now that i've been on MDC & found a whole bunch of AP role-models! I"m going to take a good amount of time to read through the old & new thread- judging from the size of this one, it'll take a while :LOL

I just ordered 3 books yesterday to help based on recommendations in the gentle discipline sticky...1. love & anger, the parental dilemma, 2. why can't i be the parent i want to be?, 3. parenting from the inside out.

i'll be back after doing lots of reading. thank you for this thread







i've really been struggling!


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## robugmum (May 1, 2003)

Welcome to Monica!
I bought a copy of Why Can't I be the Parent I want to be at a used book store. One of the authors is the same as the one I recommended, Becoming the Parent you Want to Be. I think Why... is an older book. I haven't read it yet. Let me know what you think!


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Robugmum- thinking about the worst I do when I get really angry...... I have given the kids a swat on the bum in the past when angry- fortunately I have been able to get that under control & it hasn't happened in a long time. I think I've just about got that one licked, TG. To achieve this, I have to make myself walk away; sometimes I just stand there & shake from the effort of keeping myself under some sort of control, but it seems to work. But I do still yell. In a really angry, aggressive voice. Yuk. Last weekend I was so frustrated with the whole lot of them that I actually pulled huge clumps of my own hair out. DH was home, so I just walked out the door & kept walking. I ended up walking about 3 kms (in bare feet, in the city







!!) until I calmed down enough to turn around & head home. Now, I'm pretty sure this is not a particularly healthy approach, & now the kids are nervous when I leave to do other things







, but in the interest of honesty, that's exactly the way things went at our house last weekend.







And I too, tend to throw things & slam doors when I'm angry. The kids always remember.... they even remember the time when I threw a packet of corn thins out of the cupboard in a fit of rage. It's been at least 18 months, so I know that it affects them, & how can I discourage them from throwing toys in anger when i do the same thing?? **sigh**

That said, we do still have good days too. Yesterday we all went to the beach & had a great time. I just hope that the good days outnumber the bad ones, KWIM?


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Parenting is just SO hard sometimes.

At my worst I yell. I stop listening and I sometimes threaten. Not physical punishment as my children know that I won't hit them, but stupid consequences like, "If you two don't stop fighting right now you are both going to your room for an hour and we will NOT be going to the park today." Blech.

Fortunately I've been doing a lot better lately. I'm managing to live in the moment more. I'm looking my girls in the eye more when we talk so there is more of a connection. I'm making real efforts to praise them more. Annoyingly, one of my biggest motivators is watching some of the things my dh says/does that make my stomach turn. He routinely threatens the girls with a sort of abandonment: "OK, if you aren't coming over here then I'm leaving/going back to work. Bye." At which point the girls jump up in a panic and cling to him. Makes me feel physically ill. And he makes these dramatic threats when he is frustrated that are just ludicrous (and the girls know it). "OK since you didn't pick up those books like I asked you to three times then I'm burning them all." Double blech. Sometimes I think he was beaten severly with the stupid stick.

Something else that is helping is that my oldest dd is now getting in her own bed between 8 & 8:30 every night. She starts kindergarten in a little over 3 weeks, so we are working on getting her used to getting to bed earlier and getting up earlier. She is allowed to watch Crocodile Hunter or a short video and she doesn't have to fall asleep, but she does have to be in the bed. She didn't balk at this at all and has done great. She still comes into my bed to sleep sometimes, but that's fine. I still get a bit of down time and evenings are a bit more peaceful. Now if my 2-yr-old would just do the same thing!


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Hi,
I've kept an eye on this thread, but I haven't posted in ages. It gives me great inspiration and support to know that you're all out there. I'm feeling in desperate need of some support today, actually, and that's why I'm here...

36 weeks prego, DH has been away for 4 days, and DS's (2.5 yo) behavior is out of control (could be related to any of the above). I've really realized that I may have an anger issue b/c even if it's not directed at DS it's still there-seething underneath. I have a few triggers-and naptime is one of them. We are still nursing for naptime and bedtime. And I think I should have stopped nursing a LOOOOONG time ago b/c now it is a point of frustration for me. Especially if it's not "doing" what I need it to do-like help DS fall asleep. He has been fighting napping lately, while I, of course, really NEED him to nap for my own sanity. Just now while I was trying to get him to sleep we read a book and nursed and all was fine. Then when I say that it's naptime I turn to my side to nurse him to sleep. Well, this doesn't always work anymore. And then when I ask DS to close his eyes, or let go of my breast-he does neither. I've ended up demanding and almost pulling him off of my breast in tears (both of us). I'm raising my voice to get him to stop nursing-b/c it hurts. And he's crying b/c I'm being so harsh and taking away something he loves.

I'm sorry this is such a ramble. I feel terrible that these final weeks before baby #2 arrives have been kinda miserable for both of us. We do not use physical punishment, of course, but being harsh and raising my voice all too often MUST be affecting him. I always try to apologize and be accountable for my actions when I think I'm out of line or if I've upset him, but lately, it's been happening too often.

Thanks for letting me get that out. Keep on keeping on, ladies...


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Bearsmama







. Sounds tough!

At 2 1/2 maybe he doesn't need a nap anymore, even though you still need him to nap. How about doing a quiet time instead. This would mean he has to stay in his room and play quietly, listen to a book on tape perhaps, look at books, whatever you can think up that involves him being quiet and giving you a little break. Even putting on a movie.


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dotcommama*
Bearsmama







. Sounds tough!

At 2 1/2 maybe he doesn't need a nap anymore, even though you still need him to nap. How about doing a quiet time instead. This would mean he has to stay in his room and play quietly, listen to a book on tape perhaps, look at books, whatever you can think up that involves him being quiet and giving you a little break. Even putting on a movie.

I was thinking the same thing. My younger dd is just a bit past two, but she is in that wretched place where she still gets tired in the afternoon and needs some quiet time, but if she naps now, she's up until 11 p.m.

I well remember having a toddler and being very pregnant--very hard time! I know both of my nursing toddlers really clung to nursing if we were feeling out of sorts with one another. If I was grumpy, or snappy, or unhappy with them, then they wanted to be all over me. I'm sure they were using the nursing to try to reconnect with me (and not just drive me crazy like it seemed at the time!). Reminding myself of that usually helped me to lie still and nurse for a bit so that everyone calmed down. I just wrote all of that paragraph in past tense, but I'm going through something similar with my 2-yr-old. Nursing is VERY uncomfortable for me the week before AFarrives. It's like I'm pregnant all over again. And it really upsets my little one when I flinch and show my discomfort. The more I try to deflect her,the more stressed she becomes and the more determined she is to nurse. Usually if I'll just hold my tongue and let her nurse, she'll willingly stop nursing after just a minute. It doesn't always work, but it does more often than not.

Good luck with you impending arrival. Hope you'll check in here and let us know how it goes!


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

dotcommama-Thanks for the hugs. It's what I needed today. And you may be right about him outgrowing his naps. The problem is I usually DO think he needs them b/c by 4pm he is bouncing off the walls w/out one. I think that the definition of insanity is doing something over and over and expecting a different result. And this is the path we've been on around here with napping,sleeping, and nursing. I have to change-not him.

I'll see if on those hard, struggling days he'll be amenable to quiet time...


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Fianna-Our posts must have crossed. Thanks as well for your support. Glad to hear your BTDT view. And you are right-when I flinch, yelp, whatever while nursing, he hunkers down even more and becomes a bear to de-latch.
I have to rethink all this and come up with a better way. Just like I said to dotcom-I keep expecting different results with these things that are triggers for my anger. I'm the one who has to change. Thanks also for the well-wishes...


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## smeta (Dec 15, 2001)

Hey ladies, another angry mama joining you. I want to stop yelling too. My dh has been out of town for five days and the last two (or is it three?? seems like forever!) have been awful. I'm even yelling at my 11 mo. old.









One of the things that I have the hardest time dealing with is dd being rough w/ ds. She pushes him over so he smacks his head on the tile floor, and then she smiles and laughs about it. It makes me furious. She also picks him up around his neck, kicks his head, etc. I usually ask her to take some time for herself in her room so she can cool off - but really she's not upset about it, I AM! Then I talk to her about why I'm upset and why she did it and and what she could do instead. Doesn't seem to be working!!

Bearsmama, you sound just like me last summer. My dd weaned b/c I told her she couldn't nurse if she wasn't going to go to sleep anymore - luckily she just said, 'ok'! Sometimes I think they just need a little push to move along. Have you tried counting while he's nursing? That helped for us - give him 10 minutes, or just 1 min., then count to ten or five at the end of the minute. Also, letting her 'cuddle' the breast (no lips on it) worked too. Good luck!


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## arcenciel (Nov 26, 2001)

Bearsmama, just like smeta said, I was also going to suggest counting. Especially if it hurts. If you use the same number each time then they get used to how long that is and it helps them to be ready. Do you stay in the bed with him and nap? If not, that might help him to enjoy the nap. With mine I get up and leave when they start playing around but they know I will stay as long as they are going to sleep.

Aussiemum, what you said about the good times is important. Of course we need to handle our anger because it really does affect our children in the long term, but I think focusing on the positive makes it easier to stay positive. Try and remember some of the good things you did as a parent or times you handled your anger really well!


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Aussiemum, how are things going for you? You've been on my mind a lot. If you are still checking this thread, I hope you'll take a minute to drop us a line.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

: Thanks for asking how things are going- giving me the warm fuzzies today....







you guys!

Been really busy with uni- had a few reports due, I've got grass seedlings germinating out of my ears that need to be transplanted for this experiment, like yesterday!!, & DH has had a week off work so we've been out & about, taking the kids to the beach, etc. Whew! Even with all that busyness, things haven't been too bad on the home front since my big blow up last week end. I still feel really awful about it, but it did make me think about taking some time to work on my own health- didn't have much choice actually. As I was busy ripping my hair out last Saturday, I also managed to hurt my neck with the yanking- couldn't move it for days, so I went to the chiro. Eight sessions later & I'm feeling much better. There is something restorative about having one person focussed on helping you get better, just you & only you, KWIM? Of course, when I feel better, I'm not as cranky, I'm more patient, & so it goes.......

Still, I have to take it one day at a time, & just try & do the best I can. Uni/work stress is a big factor in all this, I think, but I don't know quite how to escape it, & I have this feeling that if I quit now I'll regret it later. (I've got the most interesting & well-funded PhD project in the world going on right now-IMO







) Just can't walk away from it, yet I'm regretting taking this on before the kids were both in school. Jumped the gun, so to speak.....

And so it goes. I breathe. I count to 50 if I need to. I walk away if I have to. Worst comes to worst, valerian tea makes a nice sedative.....

Rambling now, & I, unfortunately, have to get back to work. Thinking of you all & wishing for patience & perserverance as we all struggle along together. I'm still here, even if I don't check in every day.


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## arcenciel (Nov 26, 2001)

aussiemum, don't talk about giving it up! I've been starting up a web business and taking it really slowly and at my own pace and even then it sometimes seems like too much for the family. But the thing is, that's the part that's for ME. If I don't do that I think I'll go crazy.For me it's really important to be at home most of the time with my kids, but I'm not a natural sahm so being a wahm is my compromise. One day your kids will be grown and you need to be whole without them. You can't give them a good happy upbringing if you begrudge them the time you spent with them.

Working hard on GD....


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

stepping in...

I've been reading this thread for WAYYY to long now... but it is very useful. Normally I'm cool, but since moving- all the stress- I'm struggling. We moved to simplify, and yet I don't feel "freed". I feel like I have a huge list of things to do, and since we aren't unpacked completely I'm struggling to keep the house child friendly and picked up.

All of that is making me one irritable mommy. I'm going to try positive self talk and some of the other suggestions in this thread. It pains me to see all the gentleness and patience I've invested in my children going to waste because in the two weeks we've been in the new place they've already picked up some bad habits. My 3 yr old new favorite phrase is "Right Now" and I taught it to her







At least I didn't yell it, and she isn't saying it to rudely. I've never spoken to her like that before, so I don't know where it came from. I just didn't have it in me to explain why I needed her to get come with me. I'm tired.

It's 4:07 and I'm up because I can't sleep... so maybe that has something to do with it.

ETA- I just finished the first thread and although there was some ideals I strongly disagreed with I found many more great suggestions. Thanks dotcomomma for starting this thread.

I'm ordering the parenting cards now... maybe such inspiration will help me. I've always had a parenting "checklist" on my fridge, I need to get it back up. Actually, now that I am thinking about it I'm thinking about buying some blank business cards and making my own. Or something. Sheesh- should I push the process order button or not? :LOL

One thing heartmama suggested once was putting a photo of yourself at your child's age up so you can relate to your inner child and remember what it was like to be that age. Put it all in perspective for you, you know?


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Aussiemum, your comments about work really resonated with me. I, too, think my work causes the majority of my temper issues with my girls. Usually it's in one of two ways. I'll spend the morning feeding, playing with, paying attention to the girls and I'll think that I have everything set up for a bit of work time for myself, and five minutes into it either the girls are fighting over something, someone *really needs* food, drink, etc. *right now*, or my little one is just determined that I'm not going to be on the computer. Or I'll have something really irritate me that's work related--usually a really annoying student email or a technical glitch--and I'll catch myself being less than patient with one of my girls because of it. I'm working VERY hard to not take out work stresses on my girls, though, and simply being aware of that potential has really helped an amazing amount. I'm also reminding myself every morning when I wake up that my girls come first. Work will still be there. Student emails don't have to be answered immediately, and so on. Sometimes I just have to take a deep breath and remind myself of my priorities. I am SO lucky to be able to be home with my girls and to be able to have a career too. I need to stop taking that for granted.
Also, in three weeks I won't have my oldest child to play with all day. She starts kindergarten and I'm really grieving over that. I have SO loved our unscheduled years together. I love her company and I'm so sad that that carefree phase of her life is coming to an end. I'm literally in tears about it. It just got here too fast!

Rainbow, I'm so glad you joined us. Moving is so hard! It sounds like you really are handling it better than 99% of the population would. And the years of gentleness haven't been wasted. That investment is what will allow you to get through these rough times with no lasting negative effects. It is the norms and consistencies of our parenting that form the foundation for our children, not the occasional hiccups.

I LOVE the idea of putting up a picture of ourselves as children. I think I'll raid my mom's photo albums this weekend.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

I am so happy this thread is still going and giving support to so many great Moms.

I am still struggling with yelling, but I am getting better. Sometimes I go for weeks without yelling and then somehow slide back into the trap.

Right now I'm adjusting to my oldest ds being out of school for the summer. It is wonderful to have him around, but at first it caused more time for bickering between the two oldest, which can definitely drive my stress level up. Things are evening out now though and the boys seem to be getting along better than ever and we are all enjoying the summer.

I have started an ap-type parenting message board with a friend of mine (just today in fact) and in it I have a whole forum dedicated to Anger Management . So far we're just a few members, but please feel free to join in and post over there if you'd like.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Checking in. thanks for the kind words of support, guys. I whinge endlessly about my PhD. Ignore me if it gets to be too much.









Dot, I'm glad to hear your boys are getting along better these days. You had some rough patches there for a while.

Fianna, my oldest went to grade 1 at the beginning of this year. I remember it was so hard to let her go, but she was so ready for it. Mostly she still enjoys school 6 months on. She said she didn't want to go the other day, & I said, well, if you really want I can stay home & teach you here, but you still have to learn things. In 2 seconds flat she decided school was the more appealing option. Which is prolly a good thing, otherwise I really would have to quit Uni.... hmmmm..... maybe I _should_ start talking up this homeschool stuff.... anyway, we're still running fairly steady & smooth today at our house.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aussiemum*
Dot, I'm glad to hear your boys are getting along better these days. You had some rough patches there for a while.

Thanks - I'll just







: hoping they continue getting along so well!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aussiemum*
Fianna, my oldest went to grade 1 at the beginning of this year. I remember it was so hard to let her go, but she was so ready for it. Mostly she still enjoys school 6 months on. She said she didn't want to go the other day, & I said, well, if you really want I can stay home & teach you here, but you still have to learn things. In 2 seconds flat she decided school was the more appealing option.









:


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## Mommy&Will (May 22, 2003)

I'm jumping in late here, too, but wanted to say "thanks" for this thread.

I have a tendency to cry around here more then yell. But inside I am boiling and very angry with myself, dh, ds, whoever. I cry a lot. I feel its just as destructive as yelling, though. And my "internal dialogue" to myself is so self-defeating. I will practice this and am sure will start feeling better about myself and be able to handle my toddler's overall "nuttiness" better.... Thanks again.

POSITIVE DIALOGUE, JULIE!!!! I'M A STRONG, SWEET, FUN, AND LOVING MAMA. I CAN DO THIS - I AM MY CHILD'S "AMBASSADOR" TO THIS WORLD! SHOW HIM THE WONDER OF IT ALL!

















ok. now repeat, repeat, repeat.....


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## mamaley (Mar 18, 2002)

wow, i'm having issues with anger. i'm so glad i'm not the only one. i mean, i knew i couldn't be the *only* one, but yesterday i behaved in such a way that i felt like a monster. my mom used to be like this too. i HAVE to change. i'm usually so patient, very mellow, but then something happens and i explode once in a while. i hate how i am when i'm like that, but it's hard to stop myself.

is this too much information? just wanted to introduce myself, hope it's not too late to join in.


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Definitely not TMI, mamaley, and definitely not too late to join!

Have a headache this morning, we're supposed to be going camping this afternoon and nothing is packed, and I don't have the energy to do half of what needs to be done. Needless to say, I'm having to really practice my positive inner dialogue this morning.

Off to consume another Goody's powder...


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## robugmum (May 1, 2003)

Ok, gotta ask... what is Goody's Powder???

Just wanted to check in with all of you. We're going to be away for 2 weeks so I don't know whether I'll be able to log in anywhere. Positive thoughts and affirmations from me to all of you!


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Unfortunatly I am still here - and having a *really* hard time these last few days. My DS has been gone all week with his grandparnets and I have been home with just DD. You would think that would make things easier, but I forgot just how demanding and needy a 2 year old could be one-on-one. She usually just spends her days playing (or fighting LOL!) with DS - and without her 'playmate' around she has been turing to me for the *constant* attention. It is driving me INSANE - and I know just saying that makes me sound like a monster......







:

She is just sooooooo LOUD - I guess I never realized it before. And if there is any one thing that totally pushes my buttons it is LOUD. I know it sounds like a cope out - but seriously, loud noises, whines, loud TV or musice - really anything LOUD or irritating completely sends me over the edge to the point that I don't even realize what I am doing.







: And she has been soooo whiny and so LOUD that I just can't take it anymore.

That and the CONSTANT need to be touch me, crawling on me, ect...... I have HAD IT! I just scream LEAVE ME ALONE - DO NOT TOUCH MOMMY! I feel so aweful, because I know she has a *strong* need for physical touch - but I am the exact opposite.....I can't stand to be touched all the time (we have very different 'love languages' if you can't tell!) It made nursing this past year *very* difficult and now that we are weaned it has gotton somwhat better....but not completley. Just the other day she was crawling in my lap and grabbed my nipple through my tank top (no bra) and just pinched it as hard as she could - OUCH!!!! (these are sensitive pgcy nipples we are talking about) I about jumped out of my skin - screamed at her, slapped her hand (I am totally anti-spanking, but it was a major fight/flight reaction and I didn't even realize I did it until it was already done







) and put her in room (a bit too roughly) I was SEETHING...........I just can't find a way to remain calm in these types of situations - LOUD and physically demanding......

I need HELP!!!


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## owensmom (Feb 23, 2002)

Interesting thread, glad I ran across it... no time to read all 11 (!!) pages right now though... so my apologies if this was covered on pages 2-10... wanted to say that I've used rescue remedy a lot, mostly for boo boo's ds (2.5) can't get over... but today twice he was melting down in a big way, and he said "mama, for Owen medicine". I gave him a little RR and he calmed down. I've also used for myself a tincture of Motherwort, to get through tough times. I haven't used it since he was an infant, but I think I should be using it now!!! My midwife suggested it to me, here is a bit I found on the web about it... "The ancient Greeks used motherwort to relieve anxiety in new mothers. Early herbals recommend the plant for 'wykked sperytis'. Culpeper said, 'There is no better herb to drive melancholy vapours from the heart, to strengthen it and make the mind cheerful, blithe and merry".


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Fianna, we are leading parallel lives- we just went camping this weekend as well! Had a great time, took the kids to their first outdoor concert, played in some lovely rainforest creeks. All in all it went well, no major tensions or fights. THis morning, however, once again, a little







. I overslept. I had too many things on my agenda this morning. (DS has been waking me up for the last three nights, & last night I stayed awake & fretted.







) Really, I think this grumpiness is due to _my_ agenda.... okay, & my kids are pretty energetic......

Hi Mamaley.







: Welcome to the thread. Graceoc, sorry to hear things are still tough at your house....







. I, too, have smacked out of a pain reaction. It's almost like an instinct, even tho it still feels bad when you do it. A surprise pregnancy can really throw you out of sorts too- how far along are you (sorry can't see sig lines right now!)? Ah geez, yeah, gotta love those pregnancy hormones..... or not, some days.....

Still working on that positive inner dialogue..... this one is taking a lot of work.....


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:

Still working on that positive inner dialogue..... this one is taking a lot of work.....
<sigh> me too. . .me too. . .


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Aussiemum, glad to hear that your camping trip went well. Mine was not a wonderful experience, unfortunately. I won't get into all of the boring details but on a scale of 1 - 10, this trip was about a 3. We are going back this weekend, though, so I'm trying to get over this last trip so I'm not dreading the next. I had SUCH a hard time with my parenting. I kept hearing myself saying things that made me ill. At one point we were hiking and I was talking to myself outloud, "Positive inner dialogue, you will have a positive attitude, you will say nice things, you won't fuss about unimportant issues, you will have fun..." Dh thought I was losing it! Not that he handled the weekend much better.

Robugmum, Goody's are powder analgesics, basically aspirin and caffeine. I get frequent headaches and often this is the only medication that will touch them.

Graceoc, so sorry to hear that life is still being challenging. I've been through those "just don't frickin' touch me!" phases. I had one not so long ago where I just didn't want to nurse my toddler anymore and of course she wanted to nurse all the time. I finally just talked myself down from the proverbial cliff and didn't fight the constant need to be held and nurse. Once I wasn't being resentful (at least obviously so) and stopped trying to get her to leave me alone, her need to be on me all the time lessened.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Ah Fianna.....







Yeah, I've had some shocker camping trips as well.

my most overused phrase in my own head.... some days are better than others. I repeat this like a mantra if I have to. That & 'tomorrow is another day' (I've read Gone with the Wind way too many times. I liked Scarlett.







: ) And yes, I do talk out loud to myself!! 'I WILL be a nice person. I WILL control my temper. I WILL have a good time.' **snort*** you know, I have to laugh. I usually say stuff like that thru clenched teeth. Crikey.

You know folks, it is about not sweating the little stuff, isn't it??? It's about not worrying if everything isn't perfect. Lateral thinking here..... how many of us would put our hands up to say we are perfectionists? If you don't count the way my house looks (it's a pit, despite my best & continuous efforts!!).... yes, I'd have to say I have issues with perfection......


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

hi there I just found this thread and it is a big help just reading it. Have terrible days sometimes and just have to renew that hope and that vision over and over again as one looks at oneself unhappily.

I homeschool too and I have such a hard time feeling comfortable... sometimes it is so good but sometimes I think my kids need to be with nicer, more patient people. We have homeschooled several years--and the time of babies and multiple toddlers is now behind us so in these ways things seem to be smoothing out somewhat. This responsibility is hard, and it's so important to succeed I do somehow renew my hope and motivation. Can you be a bad parent and homeschool anyway? j/k

I remember one poster wrote about the house being messy and how this made anger rise up, like one more little thing pushing you over the edge. And my dh cannot understand this he can hardly even SEE the mess it seems! It is like the visual chaos of my space creates a mental/emotional chaos factor inside me and I try to clean and then it makes me furious when others just ignore it when they drop everything on the floor as they finish with it when they just pile more projects on top of the old projects on the art table. Argh.

It seemed like a cool idea that when I felt such heavy frustration buildup to direct a release yell "at the universe" like howling or something instead of at other people. It's better than being mean anyhow. What do you think?

I actually cannot imagine not yelling at all. We live in a big house and my kids go different directions all at once and even simple instructions like don't put the puppies in the baby swing seem to require yelling if I'm in the middle of cooking dinner. I end up raising my voice a lot anyway and like another poster seem to lose the line when this is fueled by too much anger and not okay.

Ds is so hard to communicate with he pretendss you're not even talking to him and he gets completely focused on whatever he's doing in his own little world--for a while he would wet his pants because he refused to admit to himself he couldn't hold it in forever. He would do his "peepee dance" and jump up and down but he would not go to the bathroom. We would remind him to potty and he would just keep bouncing and ignore us. We'd tell him over and over and over, trying to help him pay attention to himself. He'd completely tune us out. If he had an accident he would then completely ignore it. Then if you tell him to change his wet pants he'll go after repeated requests and then lay on the floor, play with some toys and return still wearing the wet pants. I often find ways to keep it positive but ds is like this all the time even telling him it's time to come inside I have to say it so many times and he really has trouble processing my requests. And it is so high-maintenance to physically walk him through every little task. Poor kid get lost on the way to wash his hands for dinner. This child is extra hard to deal calmly with.

Dh is so wonderful but does not understand why things he doesn't even notice "have to" bother me (when I am already at the end of my rope). He also "cannot think of what to say" when I am over the edge so he doesn't give any real support. Sometimes I get angry because he is so passive, even though his gentle tolerant personality is so much of what I love about him.

There's a little bit of background even if I haven't confessed some of the worst things I've yelled which are terrible. Perfectionist, yes, and maybe another aspect of being perfectionist is being hypersensitive to things--"little things"--I know this word describes me too and sometimes I just feel invaded by everyone and everything around me.

Well, anyway, I hope you don't mind me dropping in here it is such a relief to find so much support and common ground with folks at MDC.


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## Autumnschild (Jul 20, 2004)

I used to be a yeller, a thrower of objects (including a sewing machine, which is the last thing I ever threw), and a person who generally displayed my anger in some obvious way. However, since the sewing machine incident (there was tequila involved), I have resolved to control my anger from then on. I've done well, until lately...about the time my DD reached the age of 2!

I spent the second half of her first year pregnant, and toward the end of my pregnancy, I had a general intolerance of anything, and began slipping up and yelling at my DD. I noticed a drastic change in her behavior around this time, as though we were feeding off eachother's negative energy. So I mustered up a world of patience and both our attitudes improved.

Well, now the new baby is 3 weeks old and my oldest decided to stop taking naps and to push her luck with me in general, and I am about to have a meltdown myself. I've been doing so good, but I need an outlet! All of this repression is transforming my anger into tears, and my 2 year old has to be the momma and comfort me when I'm so mad all I can do is cry. I want to break something...I know I won't, but I really need a way to deal with my anger in a healthy way! Crying just makes my face all puffy!

Sheri - mother of Sophia (2 years) and Claire (3 weeks)


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Oh, I don't know, Sheri. Crying can be a great release, even if it does make you look a little funny at the end. I went thru a long period where I _couldn't_ cry, & I don't think that was very healthy at all, KWIM?

I'm glad so many people are still getting something out of this thread- me included. I too, find that my big house means that it's very easy for the kids to walk off & pretend that they haven't heard me.... I do find I yell just to be heard, & if I'm at a crucial point with dinner, there's no way I want to stop cooking, turn off the stove, walk to the end of the house, find the kids (usually easy 'cuz someone's screaming), sit down, look them in the eye (taking 5 minutes at least to just get them to look at me & stop screaming), & calmly & rationally discuss the problem for the next 15 minutes. If I did that every time, we'd never eat anything but sandwiches....


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Sheri, I agree with Aussiemum. Crying can be very theraputic. I, too, went through a phase where I couldn't cry because I had shut down so much. Believe me, crying is a much healthier approach to life. I used to have the Dr. Sears quote on my refrigerator about how it isn't our jobs to keep our babies from crying, it's to be there for them when they do. I think crying is important for all people. I can't stand to hear people telling their kids to stop crying. It's an important release for us all. I think your crying is a teachable moment for your children. As long as they are being reassured that it isn't their fault that mommy is crying then I think it's a much better option than yelling.

The cooking dinner issues seem to be a common theme around here! That is a hard time. And it's probably why I rarely cook a complicated meal. If it isn't fast and simple, I'll end up regretting that I started it.

I'm having a hard week mainly because I haven't had a real break from my girls, from work, from housework in awhile. Dh used to take the girls swimming and then out to eat several days a week. I SO valued those times to myself. Even if I was working the entire time they were gone, which was often the case, I was still alone. I'm one of those people who really needs to be alone to recharge. And I'm not recharging lately!

"This too shall pass..."


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Quote:

Well, now the new baby is 3 weeks old and my oldest decided to stop taking naps and to push her luck with me in general, and I am about to have a meltdown myself. I've been doing so good, but I need an outlet! All of this repression is transforming my anger into tears, and my 2 year old has to be the momma and comfort me when I'm so mad all I can do is cry. I want to break something...I know I won't, but I really need a way to deal with my anger in a healthy way! Crying just makes my face all puffy!
((((((Sheri)))))) My two are 23 months apart and I went through *very much* the same thing the first few months of DD's life. I didn't think I was ever going to get through and I felt like such a terrible mom to my 2 year old - and even worse for brining a new baby to such a wreck of a mom. My DS also stopped napping within those first weeks of DD's life and it about put me over the edge. (((((((hugs))))))) I wish I had some good anger outlets to share - but the best I can do it close myself in the bathroom and scream my head off while the baby cries and the older one pounds on the door


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## hockeymama (Jun 25, 2004)

Hope I'm not intruding but I need some advice

DD just turned 2, and she is a hitter....but mostly only me. I can pinpoint it most of the time, late afternoon or having to stop doing something she wants, I understand her frustration completely especially because she isn't able to say "I'm mad, I don't want to stop doing_____". So because I'm generally the one setting the limit, I am the target.

A few weeks ago we were at the pool, and it was after five, time to head home and do dinner. I told her it was time to leave, she of course said no. So I told her that we would stay 5 more minutes (I know she has no concept of time) so I set the timer on my watch and told her when it beeps its time to go. So it beeps and I explain again its time to ago. Of course again its "NO" so I told her that if she didn't want to walk out of the pool I was going to carry her, she went limp, I picked her up, explaining actions the whole time and her came the tantrum. full blown screaming, arching and then the hitting. I actually had to leglock her to attempt to dry her off and get my shoes on. As I picked her up she smacked me in the face and I lost it. I just screamed at her in public and with full rage. I have raised my voice very little, but this just did it, I was so sick of fighting her everytime we went out in public. But I scared her, and I felt soooooo bad that the 8 minute ride home we were both screaming and crying.

After that I did some soul searching, I'm tired of fighting, I know this is typical toddler behavior but GEEZ! And as I modified my behavior the hitting diminished. But now its starting up again, tonight she accidently hit me in the face with a toy and I almost started to yell because I had already asked her numerous times to please be careful, that it hurts when you hit even on accident. But I just took the toy away explaining that she had hurt me and I didn't want her to hurt anyone else. And of course, here came the hitting and tantrum. I try so hard to keep my anger in check, I can feel my anger on the inside, but I'm afraid we're going to have another blow up soon!

Sorry this is so long, I really needed to vent this out and look for some advice


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Wow am I glad I found this thread! I'm going to go back and read more tomorrow but I feel the need to *confess*.

Where to start.... I have a 9 month old DS. The best little baby (but I'm not biased at all







). Lately he's been pushing me to the edge. Mostly at bedtime. He's discovered he can crawl and climb all over me and the bed instead of going to sleep. I ended up screaming at him once because he was trying to climb over the edge of the bed for the upteeth time and wouldn't listen to me calmly saying no and taking him down. So I screamed *no* and scared him







The past couple days I decided I just can't do it anymore. So I switched bedtime completely. We now nurse in the rocking chair until he falls asleep. So far it's been great- yesterday it took 40 minutes and today 30. Much better than the 1-2 hours before which often included me getting close to the edge of yelling and often ended up with me driving him around in the car to get him to sleep because I couldn't take the whining and crawling anymore.

The real problem where my anger comes in is actually not with my children. It's with my younger sisters. There is an 8 year old who can be a sweet girl or she can be a monster. She has gotten to lying about everything, even things that she has no reason to lie about and things that we can easily prove she's lying about. She is a disobedient little booger. She is constantly doing things I ask her not to because it will hurt my DS. She does it anyway and then insists it wasn't her (even if I did see her do it). Today she ran me over with a toy shopping cart because I asked her to turn it upright because my DS was going to knock it over when it was on it's side and get hurt. She refused so I picked up DS to leave the room. She followed ramming me in the legs with the cart. I calmly told her that was rude and told her to go to her room. She didn't listen and threw a tantrum. I lost it and screamed that I would have to put her in there myself if she didn't move it. (adding so people aren't confused.... I watch her during the day after mom goes to work and before dad can pick her up, about 2-3 hours. So I was in charge then and not just disciplining her for no reason







)

My other younger sister will be 2 on Monday. I watch her Mon-Fri 8-5. She really is a great kid. I don't have many complaints about her, except when you get her and my DS together (which they are all day mon-fri while I'm watching them). She's in the *mine* phase which, when paired with my DS recently learning how to crawl, leads to a lot of fighting over toys. I usually do fine though, anger wise, with them.

But added all up leads to one very stressed out and tired mama. Add to that I'm a single mama so noone to hand DS to when I need a break. I'm really trying to keep my anger in check. I think I'm doing good with my DS and with the 2 year old. It's the 8 year old I'm having trouble with. She's basically been allowed to do anything she wants to and is very spoiled. If things don't go her way the tears flow and she's yelling and throwing things.

Wow, that was theraputic (sp?) to get that all out! Anyway, any tips on handling the 8 year old would be greatly appreciated!


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## NatureMama3 (Feb 25, 2004)

Thanks for posting this!!! (and the last one too)

I'm still wading through them all, but it's good to know that if nothing else I'm in good company!

Both my husband and I have short tempers and we both believe it's due to low-self-esteem on our parts. That and perfectionism in our OWN lives. Since we hold ourselves to these impossibly high standards and pick on ourselves when we fail, that frustration spills over.

We started the trek into gentle discipline a year and half ago and are still progressing. It's slow though! Both of us came from households where aggression was used (spanking, yelling, belittling, etc) and that is a very hard education to replace.

Keep the tips coming!


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## lillaurensmomma (Jul 5, 2003)

I'm so glad to have found this thread today! We had a terrible day and I yelled at dd...a few times. I'm trying so hard to control my temper but she is just so 2! It doesn't help that we are both just getting over a cold so we're both tired and cranky right now. She's about a day ahead of me with this cold thing, so today she was up and running and into absolutely everything. She's a very physical child and physical abuse is something I have a hard time with. She threw her sippy cup at me (she was angry that I didn't get up to get her more water right that very minute) and hit me in the face with it. I was able to control myself and told her that it hurt (I did yell "ow" but that was reflex lol). She said she was sorry and kissed me, but 2 minute later kicked me in the head. She was like this ALL day and by the end of it, I was in tears and she was in time out for the millionth time it seemed. She normally does respond well to time outs as she can't stand to have to sit anywhere but today she really didn't seem to care, which made me more angry. *sigh* Sometimes I just can't seem to figure it out. I'm trying though!

j


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Wow - this thread just keeping going and going (and I mean that in a good way)

When I first started this thread I feared I'd be flamed for being the only angry, grumpy, yelling mom out there. It feels good to know that #1: I'm not alone and #2: We can all work on this together.

hockeymama - not intruding at all. I totally understand where you are coming from. We had issues for a long while with my 4 year old hitting and hurting me and the baby and it was the thing that made me the most angry. And yet I knew logically that the more agressively angry I became the worse example I was being to my child.

All I can say is keep working on the positive inner dialogue. I used to chant, "I love you, I love you, I love you" to myself when my ds was being hurtful. It just kept me focused and calm to remember that no how awful he was being I loved this little boy.

I want to write more, but my boys need me!


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

I just finished reading an article in the August issue of _Better Homes & Gardens_ called "Nothing to Shout About". Thought I'd share some poignant quotes:

Quote:

Today, there's an entire generation of parents who grew up in an era of school paddlings, trips to the woodshed, and learning to flinch any time Dad removed his belt.This generation has sworn they wouldn't hit their kids. The problem is, the same anger and frustration that fueled the old model of corporal punishment didn't magically vanish merely because a generation of well-meaning parents wanted it to
and

Quote:

According to a 2003 study by Straus published in the _Journal of Marriage and Family_, 74% of parents surveyed reported yelling or screaming at their kids. And not just once or twice. Most yelled or screamed at their children at least 25 times during the past year.
The article discusses the importance of recognizing a child's developmental ability, the importance of not shouting personally harmful phrases that attack a child's self-esteem, and it also gives strategies on how to break the yelling cycle. This is one of those articles I'll be leaving out where I can see it often!


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## lillaurensmomma (Jul 5, 2003)

All I can say is keep working on the positive inner dialogue. I used to chant, "I love you, I love you, I love you" to myself when my ds was being hurtful. It just kept me focused and calm to remember that no how awful he was being I loved this little boy.

It's funny that you mention this. Yesterday when DD was pushing all my buttons and getting me so incredibly angry, I found myself telling her that I loved her more than usual. About half way through the day I realized that I wasn't telling her so that she'd know, I was saying it to remind myself!

j


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## kindacrunchy (Jun 25, 2004)

Hi there. I'm new around here. I have a temper and have kept it in check for a long time . My son's first year of life was pure bliss. Then he turned one and the frustration began on both of our parts. I haven't completely lost it with him. I haven't screamed at him or anything but I really feel that my ability to channel my anger has taught him how to channel it, too. I think I'm rambling, but stick with me here. I can either keep a lid on it of I blow up. The thing that he does that drives me insane is hitting, pinching, or pulling my hair. My first reaction was to squeeze his hand and say "No, let go!" in a stern voice. Well, I think that my reaction showed him that when you are angry you should do something physical. My son is 18-months now. He is not an aggressive kid at all but will be physical when angry. I know it is normal. I just don't know how to handle things at this age. Do I let it slide? I feel that I will do better when he can reason a little. I just fear that I am going to teach him the wrong way to deal with anger.

aidan's mama (1-17-03)


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Hi kinda crunchy & everybody. Yes, it is so nice to not feel like the only yeller at MDC, & to know that others are working on it too. This thread has been a great help to me, altho goodness knows I still have bad days. Really bad days, but not today, so.....

Re: 18 mo. olds & hitting. When I was being calm & rational with my kids at that age (they're now 6 & almost 4), I would repeat endlessly "Ouch! Hitting hurts. I don't like being hit" On less rational days, of course, I'd get angry & maybe send them to their rooms. Not such a good idea, IMO, 'cuz then you lose the opportunity to talk about why we don't hit, etc. etc. ALtho, sometimes sending to them to their room also works (with older children, anyway).... ah, that's a complicated one, not as B & W as I'm making it sound.... hmmmmm...... have to think on that one......

Another thing I do, sometimes, if I'm feeling really cranky at home, is that I try & deal with the situation as if I were in a public place (I tend to be a lot more calm if I'm on display, KWIM?). So, I pretend that someone is watching how I interact with my children, & that does help.


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## Proudly AP (Jul 12, 2003)

hi, all,
i'm loving this thread.

i come from a single-parent birck-wall home, and am an only child. lots of expectations for perfection and put-downs and belittling whenever i didn't measure up (which felt like it was a LOT) and hitting, too when she was really mad.

i get very frustrated with my 2.5 yr old dd, who truly is a wonderful child. i have found myself taking her roughly by the arm on a couple of occasions, or speaking to her in a nasty tone of voice. i do not do these things often, but any times at all are too many for me.

to make matters worse, my mother is here visiting, which always raises my stress level. we both feel like we're walking on egg-shells. i just don't like her very much, but my dd loves her.

my bigger problem is controlling my anger and frustration when my mother is around. i find her to be very irritating and hate many things she says to dd, "you're the best girl around", 'good girl', 'you're the smartest girl in town...' and i worry that these comments will make dd feel she NEEDS to meet those oh-so-high expectations.

guess i'm rambling.

i need to try the positive inner dialogue. thanks for all the insight and sharing so far!

we're all in this together (sort of)


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

:

Wow, I need this thread. Hope you don't mind me jumping aboard.


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Jump right in, Tamera! Any specific issues you are dealing with right now?


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

I've been getting frustrated with my 7yo ds...I just started a post about it...but it's not going very well. I've been keeping my anger in check though..but it's tough. That's why I'm happy I found this thread


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## Proudly AP (Jul 12, 2003)

well, the positive self talk helped today. dd is 30 months old. i am 30 months pregnant and still nursing dd. at times i feel very touched out and frustrated. we have had a very busy long weekend, and we all are tired, and dd is fighting her naps and wanting to nurse more (my breasts are sore).

anyway, that was background. dd was clinging and saying, 'i want to nurse, mama' in a whiney voice. i just wanted her to nap, but she was fighting it, even with nursing. this is what i kept running through my head.....

i love you. i love me. i become a better parent every day. (over and over and over). i am sure it helped decrease my body tension, which likely helped her to fall asleep. we both napped for over an hour









i've got to keep checking in here, i think it's very therapeutic. thanks, all.

katherine


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Proudly AP*
well, the positive self talk helped today. dd is 30 months old. i am 30 months pregnant and still nursing dd.








katherine

:LOL Well, if I were *30 months* pregnant I'd be in a pretty foul mood too!

Hope you don't mind a bit of good natured ribbing. Your post gave me a much needed MDC giggle for the day, so thank you!!

That positive inner dialogue truly works wonders when used regularly. It's just so darn hard to remember to use it sometimes! I imagine that hour-long nap was absolutely wonderful! I used to love napping with my older dd when I was pregnant.

We've had a challenging week around here because my 5-yr-old starts kindergarten tomorrow and she has been holding the entire family as emotional hostages. She's so darn stressed out that she's had these amazing mood swings that are SO hard to deal with. We go in an hour to meet her teacher, so I'm truly hoping that things will calm down tremendously once we've done that (where's a fingers crossed smilie when you need one?).


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Checking in here.

I'm so glad the positive dialog idea is working so well for so many.

I had a terrible weeks last week, including my middle child falling off the couch and smashing his mouth and gums wide open, and then two days later the same child rode his bike into the baby outside causing the baby to fall and cut his head open so bad I had to take him in for stiches.









So I yelled frequently. <sigh>

But I told myself today was the start of a new week and I was going to do better (and somehow keep the kids for hurting themselves or each other!).

Today was wonderful. We had to go to the grocery store and they were well behaved - that never happens and then we had friends over and they all played wonderfully together.

I hope my week continues on this positive note!


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## Proudly AP (Jul 12, 2003)

LOL fianna! glad you caught that. it made me laugh when i read your reply! yup, 30 months would really be something else!


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Quote:

I had a terrible weeks last week, including my middle child falling off the couch and smashing his mouth and gums wide open, and then two days later the same child rode his bike into the baby outside causing the baby to fall and cut his head open so bad I had to take him in for stiches.
OMG, dotcommama, what a week! where's that head-shaking smilie when ya need it.....








Here's to a new week!

Up & down as usual here at our house. SOme days good, others not so good. DD won some races at school today, so she was pretty pleased with herself & in a good mood tonight. That was nice.







I chucked a wobbly at DH today, which made things a bit tense (been a long couple of days at uni **sigh**), but he took the kids & the dog for a walk after work & I was much calmer when everyone got home.









Well, that's my latest report, from the other side of the world.







With a welcome to the new subscribers.


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## bobica (May 31, 2004)

Hey mamas! I've been working soooo hard on keeping my cool & not yelling. Oi! I'm in the middle of "Why can't i be the parent I want to be?" & besides being a little, oh, i don't know, maybe condescending, it's very good. I know that raising my dd is the most important thing i'll do in my life & i want to do it well, so there's my motivation.

Also, i finally called my dr. about how stressed out & anxious i've been & i'm trying a trial of meds. I have to say, it's helping immensely & it's less than a week! I had been doing a lot of homeopathic stuff (boiron's, yogi kava tea, etc.) & trying to do more yoga too. But, i needed a much stronger kick in the butt! I'm hoping for short term meds & then continuing with the homeopathic, yoga, incense route









I don't post here a lot (i get swallowed up in diapers :LOL ) but i really really really appreciate this thread in particular! it's very comforting to have you all here







:


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aussiemum*
I chucked a wobbly at DH today

I think I need a translator for that one









Thank God this week has been so much better, at least no one's bleeding - lol. Monday was amazing. I took all three kids to the grocery store and they only had small carts, so my two older children had to walk (which is usually a huge nightmare), but they were wonderful. I couldn't believe it! If only all my days went so smoothly.

Anyway, I love that this thread just keeps going and giving support. It really makes me happy. I rarely hang out at MDC anymore, but I can't help but do a weekly check in with this thread, since it's near and dear to my heart. If any of you want to pop in my new "home" (it's nice and small) you're welcome to join in the conversations over at The Conscious Parent


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

Ugh, I had a hard day at the store today. My youngest ds--who is 3 through tantrum after tantrum.









But, I should I have picked up on his mood before we left...he gave me plenty of warning that this was going to happen.

Then Mila, who dislikes being in her carseat screamed the whole way home.

I only got 2 hours of sleep last night, and if I get off of work by 4AM, I should get 3 more hours before this all starts again.....









Well, maybe Mila and Hunter will take naps, and the oldest 2 will color, and I can take a nap!!







Doubtful, but I can try. I can't be grumpy if I am sleeping


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiemum
I chucked a wobbly at DH today

I think I need a translator for that one
:LOL Yeah, jeez, sorry... how to translate???

um.....got a bit snarky/nasty/bitchy/making unfair comments.....

got it! chucked a wobbly = threw a fit

Still some ups, still some downs..... had unexpected visitors today, which kinda threw my whole day off.... i always have such grand plans for what i will accomplish in a day, & have to work hard at not getting frustrated when it all doesn't go to the clock. It never does.









But the kiddos had friends around for a playdate today- went really well (with a dear friend's kids who I will be babysitting one afternoon a week). We've known them since babies/birth, so they're more like family.... it's a wonderful thing to have friends like these if you don't have family living nearby &/or who you are close to.

Oh & dot...... you sure you want me to come visit the new boards?- I see there's a politics section.......


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aussiemum*
chucked a wobbly = threw a fit

Ah! I figured it was akin to "pitched a fit," but then I wondering if there was such a thing as a wobbly and you really did throw it at your dh - lol

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aussiemum*
Oh & dot...... you sure you want me to come visit the new boards?- I see there's a politics section.......









Yours is one of the voices I miss most not being around here much, so please do join in the conversation over there! Our politics section could use a bit of livening up -


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Quote:

Ah! I figured it was akin to "pitched a fit," but then I wondering if there was such a thing as a wobbly and you really did throw it at your dh - lol










:LOL

I'll think about it,dot, I'll think about it....DH might divorce me if i spend anymore time on line......just kidding









I'm logging off now, my one of my fave TV(!) progs is on now (The Glass house) & i really should go to bed sometime tonight. The weekend is upon me......


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## kindacrunchy (Jun 25, 2004)

"Still some ups, still some downs..... had unexpected visitors today, which kinda threw my whole day off.... i always have such grand plans for what i will accomplish in a day, & have to work hard at not getting frustrated when it all doesn't go to the clock. It never does.







"

I hear you on that. I have this whole idea in my head of all the chores and errands that need to get done and if the day doesn't go accordingly, i'm a total hag. I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one


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## tricia80 (Oct 28, 2003)

Hi ladies

I'm venturing out of my usual forum areas and found this thread... and was amazed.. i thought i was the only one who yells... i try not to but when i lose it i lose it.. and it makes me feel soo bad and i end up crying and apologizing to dd...

today was not soo good to start off with... we had a gas leak and i had a huge headache and she started to cry over nothing making my head hurt even more.. and wasnt listening so when i yelled at her to stop she jus got louder and i nearly lost it... didnt even know why i was soo upset... it could of been from the gas.. and as usual felt guilty, apologized etc...

its been hectic.. and alot of stress but i have cut down on my yelling.. so i was extremely hard on myself for blowing up over nothing...

but anyways... im done rambling... and i shall be watching this thread.. and making my way through the old thread... there is alot of pages... :LOL


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

bump

thanks for the suggestion mommas.

should a new thread be started (this one is pretty intimidating w/its zillions of posts!)?


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

OK, I just wanted to check in here and share some positive news with the moms I've shared pages and pages of anger issues with on these two "anger" threads!

Even though in some ways my life has become even more stressful than before (older dd started public school kindergarten and my marriage is at a very low point) I have reached a pretty good place in my parenting right now. One good side of public school is that I get up and going early in the a.m. I have a regular schedule where I drop dd #1 off at school and then come home, get dd#2 fed and occupied in some activity and I get 45 minutes of yoga. I have made a concerted effort to improve my eating habits as well, and after two weeks of yoga, good food, and a fairly regular schedule, I have gone down a dress size, have been more productive during the day (which is REALLY good considering I have 3 "part-time" jobs in addition to full-time mothering), and I have been such a more patient mother! I have been more sympathetic, more in-the-moment, less quick to anger. And I know most of it is because I feel empowered. I am making positive changes in my life that are making me feel good about myself and my future. What a great feeling!

Life isn't perfect and neither is my mothering. I have flown off the handle. I have said things I had to apologize for. But overall, things are better. I'm still using a lot of the suggestions from this list and think of this thread daily. Hang in there, Mamas! If I can make a positive change, ANYONE can!


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Fianna -














That is SOOOO wonderful! It sounds like in the mist of some difficult things you are really coming into your own and it is working to your advantage. I can totally see myself needing to make some of the same types of changes.....GOOD FOR YOU!!!!!


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Hi Ladies,
I've kept up with this thread, although I've only managed to post a few times. I appreciate everyone's honesty. It's been really, really helpful to me.

Tonight I just need some support. We have a new baby (not even three weeks old) and a 2.7 yo. Needless to say, the transition has been difficult. The baby is a breeze, really, it's our older son who is giving us a run for our money.

DS#1 has been doing a lot of hurting/hitting/throwing. He is also oftentimes rough with the baby or licks the baby and is generally a little rambunctious around him.

Well, I guess tonight it all caught up with me b/c I yelled at DS with such force that I almost lost my voice. I think that I've only ever yelled like this one other time (and that had to do with physical pain, too). Tonight after a cry fest over not being able to read another book b/c it was getting too late, he asked for me to hold him. And when I layed down with him he squeezed me really, really tight and did what DH and I call, "steamrolling" and headbutting into my body. It was clear that he was angry with me and was trying to show me. But he was hurting me. I feel like I channelled Satan b/c my voice gurgled and I just lost it. I said about 5 times, "Do you understand that you're freakin' hurting me???"
He was very scared.

Needless to say, I apologized and held him while he fell asleep (as usual). I asked him to tell me how it felt to have mommy yell like that, and then I apologized again.

I keep reminding myself of what a therapist friend told me once. That kids don't need you to be perfect. They need you to give them love and to be accountable. I hope I was accountable tonight.

Thanks for letting me get that off my chest. I needed somewhere to "confess" other than to my DH (who, of course, heard the whole thing and would have normally stepped in sooner, but was holding the baby). I have been sobbing for the past 20 minutes. I hate, hate, hate yelling. I was yelled at as a kid, and I know how it feels. It sucks. Just sucks.

Thanks for your support and this thread.


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Oh, Bearsmama, I'm so sorry! What an emotionally wrenching evening you all have had! I hope you'll have a cup of warm tea and get some sleep.

You are in a very tough situation with a toddler and a new baby. You recognized your son's needs/desires but also had to deal with your own feelings. You have to be exhausted on many levels and you aren't perfect. You did the best you could. So you lost it--physical pain always makes me lose it too--but you recovered, apologized, acknowledged your son's feelings, and held him. You did a good job! So many moms would have sent him to his room or said harmful, hurtful things to him. But you didn't.

Cut yourself some slack, mama.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Bearsmomma My kids are 31 months apart and I have *sooo* BTDT!

Quote:

I keep reminding myself of what a therapist friend told me once. That kids don't need you to be perfect. They need you to give them love and to be accountable. I hope I was accountable tonight.
THank you for sharing that. What a great concept. I can't always (and don't always) want to be consistent. I can't always keep my temper (though I am getting better). But I can always love my kids and be accountable. I can appologize and I can strive to do better and be better. Honestly, that touched my soul


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## nuggetsmom (Aug 7, 2002)

Is it too late to jump in? I am really having a problem keeping my anger in check since I am feeling overwhelmed with two kids now and DD1 being 3 and testing testing testing. She never listens or just does what I say so it gets to be a chellenge. I admit I am addicted to the yelling because it gets results in the short run.
I will catch up with the thread but now I am going to bed.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Fianna-Thanks so much for the support and your kind words...







It's amazing what sharing with other mamas does for your soul. Today is a new day. I had a good cry with DH, and he rubbed my back. I sort of fell into bed and thought, tomorrow is another day...

I am trying to stay in the moment with my children right now. It is overwhelming to think of the challenges of the coming months with a 2.7 yo and a newborn, but I find if I can just focus on today. On getting thru today, and yes, sometimes even enjoying today, I've been doing much better.

It's just so hard to see your relationship change with your older child. To be at once heartbroken and pissed off at the same child!What conflicting feelings!

Tired-Glad my words (or my friend's words) could be of some comfort and help to you. So glad that you found it touching. I remind myself of this often. I've wondered if other mamas have a mantra or other words that they remember on the rough days??

Hang in there, Nuggetsmom.


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## flitterby (Sep 7, 2003)

Responding to all the women who have honestly shared themselves with everyone about dealing with yelling and anger. Over time I have gotten better at not yelling at my husband and 22 month old daughter. I am 8 months pregnant now and that has also put the emotions up a notch. What I think is helping me now is a few things: 1) deep breaths 2) being objective and thinking of what action can I do to deal with this situation: do I need to tell my dd to go in the other room and finish crying? Do I need to take a walk? Do I need to stop talking to my husband and process a minute before going on? 3) Compassion for the other person. What are they feeling. If I can not react on my feelings and rise above them, I can get through the situation with more logic and peace and even if the other person is upset I won't be and they most likely will get to a better place. Also I have skimmed through a book at the book store that looked interesting called "Raising your spirited child". From what I read finding what the child needs will help. Maybe they need to go the park and play for an hour and then come home and their toys will look interesting again. Anyway, thanks for all the sharing, I feel better from relating. Hope you can to. Peace


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

I posted this on TCP a few weeks ago, but I thought I'd post it here also as an update:

This summer has been so difficult. I have been watching my parenting ideals disintegrate. I see my husband and I yelling more and more and the children behaving worse and worse.

Last night I sat down with my husband and we talked for hours through a lot of tears. We both admitted that we were not being the parents we wanted to be anymore and that we had to change.

So we sat down and made a list of the things that we need to change:

#1: Stop yelling!

#2: Stop the sarcasm and name calling (we've been slipping into saying things like, "You're acting like a brat!" and that's not okay!)

#3: Be more gentle. We do not hit the kids, but we haven't been gentle lately either - yelling and dragging a kicking and screaming child into time out is not gentle!

Then we sat down and came up with four issues that we needed to change with the children.

#1: Issues of sibling rivalry. This is mostly between Drew and Jay. Jay cries if Drew is on my lap. Drew hits and hurts the baby. (We decided immediate time out for Drew when he hurts the baby and that we were going to work on trying to get Jay to accept my cuddling Drew more often).

#2: Fighting between Trevor and Drew. (We're going to try some of the "Kids are Worth It" (a book by Barbara Coloroso) techniques )

#3: Backtalk from Trevor. (We're going to gently remind him the first time how to speak to us. For example, "Trevor I do not like your tone of voice. When you are ready to speak nicely I will listen." Then we're going to ignore the attitude until he's ready to communicate gently. This is going to be hard, but I think he's going to learn more by us modeling the way we want him to talk to us then he's learning by us getting nasty and yelling back - kwim?)

#4: Wild Play. This is a hard one to handle because we both understand that it's normal for three boys to play wildly, but at the same time we cannot let them go around breaking everything in the house. (We decided to try to get them outside as much as possible during the day. When Brian comes home from work after saying hello to Jay I'm going to wear him in the Mei Tai while I finish dinner and Brian is going to read stories to the boys. This tends to be the craziest time of the day, as their tired and excited to see Brian so they blaze around the house like lunatics. I think getting them involved in a quiet activity with Dad my be just the trick).

This was about two weeks ago and Brian and I have kept to our promise to each other. We have not yelled at all and have been very calm with the kids and in turn they have been behaving better than ever.


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

dotcom, how fantastic! That is so awesome that you guys were able to sit down and come up with workable strategies. And you've stuck to them and seen the results, which will motivate you to make it through the really hard times. You guys should be so proud of yourselves! Thanks for sharing your experience.

Things are still going pretty well around here as well. I've had a few "bad mommy" moments along the way, but I've been accountable for them each time, have apologized and tried to explain to my girls why I was struggling with my behavior (tired, upset over something unrelated to them, etc.) One of the benefits of my being willing to do that seems to be that my girls are learning to figure out what prompts some of their behaviors as well. For instance, when my older dd comes home from school and simply loses it over something small or immediately starts a fight with her younger sibling, we can now talk about her day (after she calms down) and she can tell me about why she is extra tired or stressed out from her school day. Even the 2-yr-old is trying to get into the act, telling me last night that she was "extra-grumpy because Julia wouldn't share the pony book with me!" Too cute.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fianna*
Even the 2-yr-old is trying to get into the act, telling me last night that she was "extra-grumpy because Julia wouldn't share the pony book with me!" Too cute.

That's great







That is what it is all about. I realized that the worse dh and I behaved the worse the children did - they were simply learning by our poor example. It is great when we can model good behavior for our children and that sounds exactly like what you are doing.


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## GingerbreadMom (Aug 19, 2004)

Bumping for a mommy in need.


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

What's happening, GingerbreadMom? Anything you need to vent about?


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## GingerbreadMom (Aug 19, 2004)

No, I bumped this for Mama2cuties as she requested some help and I remember reading some tips for dealing with anger in this thread. I didn't know how to insert a link to the thread, so I bumped it so that it was easier to find.
Thanks


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## robugmum (May 1, 2003)

Thanks, its good to revisit this one every once in a while!


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

If you haven't already read Harvey Karp, I highly recommend it. I never read _The Happiest Baby on the Block_, but I'm currently reading _The Happiest Toddler on the Block_ and the section about speaking "toddler-ese" is amazing.

(Of course, I'm assuming that anger issues are arising from frustration that comes out of dealing with toddlers, but that's a bit of my own baggage - see my posts AGES ago!)

Anyway, this section on how to actually communicate in your child's format so that s/he knows you understand and are responding, totally works! I read it and thought, "That's just insane. Why would I talk to DS like that?" and about 5 minutes later a tantrum started, so I tried it. Voila! Tears away! I could deal with the issues instead of stressing about the escalating frustration, getting myself all worked up.

My 2 cents.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Has anyone read Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline?

I'm in the middle of reading it now. For those of us that are struggling with anger issues it really helps answer the "but how do I keep from feeling so angry that I want to yell?" question. At least it has for me. I haven't yelled in weeks.

I highly recommend it!


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

I think that's a great book, it makes so much sense. I especially like how she emphasized that you have to practise -- you wouldn't expect to just read a book about golf and then go out and be Tiger Woods. I also liked how it focused on self discipline for the parents. But maybe that just says a little too much about my lack thereof.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

mmgarda-Could you please give an example of the toddler-ease you mention? I'm interested in the book, but I'm hoping for a starting point for tomorrow. Can you give me a brief run-down? We've had a rough couple days (weeks!). TIA


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## HotMama (Oct 26, 2002)

Perfect timing to bring up this book. I'm going bonkers right now...my mom just died, I'm thinking of stopping the RC mom's group I've been in a year and switching to meditation so I can still my frigging mind a bit and I just started reading this book. So far it's been OK and I was trying to decide if I should switch books (I also got How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen..., and another great book recommended on a positive discpline list. I have been waiting for them and of course they all come at once! ). I will continue with Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline.

BTW - Have any of you done RC? I feel I'm at a crossroads with it and I don't see it helping me deal with my anger at all. I'd appreciate anyone who's been there to share their experience and help me figure out if it's the right path for me, if I'm just giving up or not committing enough time to it. For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, RC is Re-evaluative Counseling, or co-counseling. Thanks!


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Hotmama







2


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

First, thanks again for this thread. I check in with it frequently and have posted a few times.

Ladies, I really, really need your support right now. Or perhaps just an ear (or ears) to confess my sins to.

I will be as brief as possible. We have a newborn and a VERY challenging 2.8 yo that has been incredibly difficult to deal with since our baby's birth. In 7 weeks I have yelled more than I have in 2.8 years total. I have screeched in his face, tried to force him into his carseat b/c he refused to get in, and had to drag him through a supermarket parking lot by his hand b/c he SAT down in the middle of the it while cars went past. All of this I am not proud of at all. But all of this, including my times that I have yelled, I have ALWAYS apologized almost immediately for my actions and my responses to his actions.

Well, today I crossed a line and I need to get this off of my chest. He has been hitting A LOT lately--especially me-and sometimes the baby (btw, we do not spank, hit, etc). Well, today he hit me after we had been going over this all day and all day he continued to do it again. I did try very hard to do everything the right way. I talked to him about it. I grabbed his hands gently and looked right at him and said sternly, "NO hitting". I also tried simly saying, "That's unacceptable" and withdrawing my attention from it and leaving the room. Well, he was out of control today with no nap and just generally being nuts and he hit me ONE more time while I was trying to help him, and I lost it. I grabbed him and picked him up and yelled very loudly in a rage, "There's no freakin'hitting!!" Then I proceeded to carry him upstairs-still raging-and telling him he had to stay in his room. And when I got there I literally threw him down on the bed. More forcefully then I thought b/c his head sort whipped back and I think he might have bit his tongue or something b/c he started crying and just looked at me with such fear.

I grabbed him and held him and kissed him and apologized a thousand times. I also told him that it would never happen again. EVER.

So, how do I process this? Is there anything else I should do to make sure this never happens again? I've always been so judgemental of people of use force/hit their kids. Always thought that I would NEVER do such things. Well, I didn't hit him, but what's worse? I used to not think I could live with myself when I yelled. Gosh. I just don't know how to process this.

Thanks, ladies, for any advice/words of wisdom tonight. I really need it.


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## Mommy&Will (May 22, 2003)

Bearsmama








I fail at having any words of wisdom for you because I can relate so much to what you are going through. I have a 28 month old and a 4 month old. We're struggling with similar issues.

I never thought I would have such anger toward my child. I feel sooo guilty about that. He is only 2. How can I feel this way already?

So I guess here's a few things I'm going to do:
1. Read through this thread again for encouragement.

2. Check out that Happiest Toddler on the Block book again, but I also understand there is a video out. I want me and dh to watch it together.

3. I also want to check out a children's book on manners. And this is not just for the benefit of changing/improving my ds' manners, but mine also.

Also, one other thing that I've been doing is that when I feel totally frustrated and out of control with ds, I get down on my knees, make sure I am sitting low, below him and looking up to his face to talk to him (a Harvey Karp method.) This makes him feel more powerful, in control rather then being controlled when I am standing over him.

I also think that - for me - the physical act of getting down on my knees and making sure I am looking up at him, it gives me an outlet for my frustration. Rather then grabbing him, etc. I'm focused on getting myself to the floor. Does that make sense? Anyway, I'm trying...

Hang in there bearsmama. I'll try to do the same.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

mommy&will-Thank you SO much for your reply. You don't know how much your words are helping me this morning (I am up at 5:30 and checking out this thread for encouragement). I am not happy that you're going thru the same thing, but I feel comforted to know that I am not alone. I wonder often if it's like this in other people's houses??? My DH reminds me that it's probably FAR worse. And that I have to remind myself that most moments here are good ones, it's just that the bad ones have been REALLY, really bad lately.

I am going to post a reminder to myself on my kitchen cabinet about anger, postitve self-talks (which I have always been bad at) and other parenting things that I want to keep in mind every day.

I also think that I will post in the GD forum about what to do about hitting. DS woke up a few minutes ago and was sweet and lovey for 5 minutes and then out of nowhere HIT me. No, it didn't hurt and I can see clearly that he was just looking for some kind of rxn from me. I gently turned him so he would look at me and I said, "That's unacceptable". And I took him out of our family bed and put him in "his" room to play quietly. He already has heard a million times that in order for us all to be happy in the bed, we all need to respect each other and to not jump, or play loudly when others are sleeping. This is just one more thing that he cannot do in our bed or elsewhere.

Whew, I am still feeling "in crisis" right now. I don't know where to place what I did. I guess I know intellectually that I did not intend to hurt him and that I was simply trying to do WHAT???? Maybe I DID intend to hurt him? Oh boy. You know, where does this fit in my vision of myself as a human being?

On the other hand, although I am consumed right now about what I did, I also know that staying with the guilt forever is not going to help either one of us or my family. On some level I am going to have to accept myself and my mistakes in order to be the parent I want to be.

Having hard time. Thank you for your reply, mommy & will, it means a great deal to me this morning...


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Take at easy on yourself. Yes, you made a mistake, but at least you know it was a mistake. Compliment yourself for that.

You are in a transition period with a new baby. The older child is most likely jealous and is expressing his frustration and jealousy through hitting (I went through this with my middle child after the birth of my third). That doesn't make it okay and you definitely have to find a way to teach him an alternate way of getting Mom's attention, but it helps to keep in mind when he's hitting that he's doing it because he really loves you and misses getting 100% of your attention. If you focus yourself of the *positive* reason (his love for you_ behind his negative behavior (hitting) it can help keep you calm with him.

As for the yelling. I think this is pretty common when you have a new baby to find yourself yelling more, or yelling when you never did before. After all you most likely have that little one in arms, or on boob, 99% of the day which makes getting up and directly talking to your older child nearly impossible. Thus we all do more "arm chair parenting" so to speak which involves yelling. You are also learning to handle two children's needs which can leave you feeling frustrated and short tempered.

So again, give yourself a







and know that you're learning and you're going to make the occasional mistake.

As for not yelling. When the urge to yell at your child hits, try whispering. It often will make the child come closer to you, if you can't get up because the baby is in your lap. This way you can talk one-on-one calmly - instead of trying to get your child's attention across the room.

For hitting. . .it's going to take some time. Try not to give the child much attention for the hitting. If you yell and get upset your ds is going to keep hitting because he's found a great way to get Mom's attention (I learned this the hard way!) Also try to see if you can schedule more one-on-one time with him if you can. I found that my son's jealousy decreased when we started a routine of reading four special books each night, just me and him.

And lastly, just know that you are all learning to incorporate this new little one into your life and there will be a few bumps, but in the end it will work out! If you have any time to read I highly recommend Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline. It's all about teaching you how to remain calm with your children.


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Oh Bearsmama, I think the vast majority of mom who have ever had to mother a newborn and a toddler have LOTS of sympathy with your situation. It is a hard, hard transition for everybody.

The only suggestions I have are what others have already given you but I think it always bears repeating. Try to force yourself to see things from you older child's perspective, *especially* when he is exhibiting those behaviors that are making you want to snap. If you can remove yourself from feeling like an angry victim and instead recast yourself as the sort of scientific observer whose job it is to figure out the thoughts behind the behavior, it makes things less personal. It puts you in an active mode rather than a reactive mode. It helps to retrain our initial response.

Get on his level (and realize that this also puts you in easier strike mode so you may take a face hit--expect it, mentally and physically prepare for it) and just say to and for him all of the things you think he is probably feeling and can't verbalize--"It must be so hard to have to share mommy. I know you are angry and confused about having a new person in our house. New babies aren't very much fun to play with." etc., etc.

Everyone I know IRL who has a very attached relationship with their firstborn and then had a second child (including myself) has been so stunned and upset over the disconnect with the older child that initially occured when the new baby arrived. And we as moms are feeling that disconnect the older child has to be feeling it too! And as mothers who understand it, can intellectualize it, can project into the future and see a brighter place ahead we still get stressed out and upset about it. Our toddlers only know/feel what is in front of them right now and their only real options are to physically react to those scary emotions. The more sympathetic we can be, the faster those really challenging behaviors will subside.

But it's so hard! Don't feel bad for losing it. Your child is losing it too. You are both venting your frustrations and fears. You are role modeling how to be accountable for your behavior and how to apologize. You are reaching out for help and are determined to stop your reactions and behaviors that scare you. You are doing a good job and you will make it through.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Bearsmama, in addition to what others have said, I would advise checking out the PPD forum. I never had problems controlling my temper or yelling at dks until pg hormones were thrown into the mix.

((hugs))


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## HotMama (Oct 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dotcommama*
If you focus yourself of the *positive* reason (his love for you_ behind his negative behavior (hitting) it can help keep you calm with him.

You are so right! If only I would remember this...I don't remember where I read it, but someone said to look for the yes behind the no, what are they wanting? When I remember this, I am so much more able to be calm. I'm gonna post this in my kitchen to remind me...thanks Bearsmama and huge hugs.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Hi Mamas,
I don't have much time and I want to respond to the replies. But I just had to check in and get encouragement tonight. I truly thank you all for your words here. They are helping...I'll write more when I can.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Thanks again for all the wonderful support. I really need it lately.

dotcommama-Your words about thinking about what's behind his negative behavior have helped me the past few days. When I remember that he is going through SO much right now (and alternately reminding myself that this can't possibly last forever!...or can it??) I have been able to deal with some daily situations differently.

For instance, yesterday he refused to get into his carseat after an outting. And in the past I have tried to remain calm only to have the situation disintergrate into me yelling. Well, I was very, very calm. Took the baby out of the car and locked the doors so my older DS couldn't get out. And just ignored him and told him that when he was ready, he could get in his seat. Well, it lasted almost 1/2 hour, but it was so preferable to a yelling fit that would end in apologies and tears from both of us. Ask me if this would work if it had been snowing or raining outside, I don't know.

dotcommama-I will also try to check out the book you mention. I have been hearing a lot of good things about it lately. I will add it to my wish list for my growing parenting library(those books aren't working too much lately, huh?).

Fianna-Thanks also for reminding me like dotcom did about trying to see things from his perspective more often. You know, DH and I thought we were really trying to do all this, but I guess we aren't doing it enough.

Brisen-Thanks for the suggestion. My temper has been very short lately. But I have to say that I have none of the PP emotions I had the first time. In retrospect, I think I dealt with some mildPPD after the birth of my first son. But this time around, I am not internally feeling as overwhelmed as I was the first time-if that makes any sense. Although this is all the hardest thing I've EVER done, and the guilt and emotions I have about the disconnect (was it Fianna who used that word? It so aptly describes how I feel about my older DS and my relationship right now) are manageable somehow.

Hotmama-Thanks for the hugs... DH and I have been talking lately about posting a list and putting it on a kitchen cabinet. I have started one of all the key mothering mantras I want to keep in mind. And remembering the YES behind the NO will really help me.

I think it was Fianna that said "you'll make it thru". Well, I can usually remember this, but sometimes I see how much pain my older son is in and how much his behavior has been out of control and how he's exhibiting some self-comfort stuff that he's NEVER done before, like sucking his fingers, and I just wish I had a crystal ball that all would be well. He is a very, highly-spirited kid. Has been since birth. And it seems that he's so fragile. I just want to know he'll be okay ...

Thanks again, mamas. And thanks for letting me monopolize this thread for the past few days.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Just checking in. I've really made a bigger, more conscious effort to keep my anger in check. It's like the stars aligned to help me remember this thread at a time in need as well as finding an article on managing anger with kids (If I have the time I will copy some of the helpful stuff, here). I am trying to do a lot of positive self-talk-which is really hard for me.

I'm giving DS A LOT of wiggle room on every decision. Trying to remember how I feel when I lose it. Still not perfect days, of course. But I feel that I'm getting better.

I am realizing, however, that I am much more neurotic than I ever imagined. I just don't know how I can freak out on such a beautiful, sweet child and it's killing me when I do. I'm not one that "moves on" quickly from an episode of yelling or whatever. And I know that my boy (and probably ALL kids) need me to get over it quickly and not get stuck in the guilt of it. Staying there just seems to make it worse.
Hope you all have a good day.


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## balrog (Apr 3, 2003)

I am new posting to this thread. I've been reading thru the old posts (here & in the original thread) for weeks! I'm not all the way up to the end yet, either, but tonight I wanted to post.

I am so grateful for this thread. I felt there was something wrong with me, that if I ever admitted that I yelled & lost it then all the MDC GD Mamas would never speak to me again! So it has been great reading all the posts, nodding my head, finding the helpful advice.

And that positive self-talk really does work, if I can remember to do it. All I think is, "I can do this," instead of giving in to that feeling of "I can't take this any more." Um, not that I am successful all the time, but it works when I remember to do it.

Something else that helps me a lot that I haven't seen (or remembered  posted yet is to re-adjust the expectations for the child. Seems obvious, but I am guilty of expecting more from my 3-yo than she can give. If I try to notice a pattern, that I am always more angry when X happens or at Y time, then I can see where I am expecting too much at that time or circumstance. If I can change my expectations, then I am better off.

I also notice that my 3-yo needs more holding and cuddling when I get angry, right when I don't feel like giving it. If I can make enough calm requests to guide the cuddling into something I can handle, we both end up happier.

I'm sayin' these things, but I'm still working on them. I yelled tonight, and I realized a bit later that when I yell, DH gets tense and angry too (since he doesn't want the kids to be making me unhappy). Chalk up one more reason for me to control my temper, not pitch a toddler-sized temper tantrum.

After my temper tantrums (yeah, that's what they are!) I try to apologize, to say that I am tired (haven't slept more than 4 hrs at a stretch in over 4 years), and to say that it is rude to yell, even when I am upset. My DD lately has been throwing her arms around my neck and saying, "I can make you not be upset, Mama." You'd think I could remember to do this for her when she is upset. Sometimes I am not a good mama.

One more thing -- due to my spouse's mental illness, I've been pushed into realizing that some things (such as Being Right) just aren't important. Lately I think that I need to identify the things that are not truly important in "battles" with my kids, too. Such as: Doing It My Way. Doing It Quickly. There are surely lots more non-important things that make me angry, and if I can just drop them off my horizon with DH, why not with the kids, too? Just thinking "alooud" here.

Sorry for the brain-dump novella. I've been reading this thread for too long and needed to respond to you all, and to say thanks, and to recognise my own limitations.

--Balrog (2 kids, 1 spouse, 1 mortgage, 2 jobs)


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

Balrog,

It's been ages since I've posted to this thread, but I liked your post a lot. It was a good summary reminder.

I've actually done pretty well lately. Working at home and not commuting makes a huge difference. However, dealing with a new pregnancy, massive lack of sleep, crazy in-laws and then a miscarriage have made my temper a bit short. It's nice to have reminders.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Balrog-







So glad that you're here...It's so nice that we can all be such support for each other. Today was a particularly challenging day with DS and I needed to come here tonight, too, to feel better.

The positive self-talk stuff REALLY DOES work. But it is SOOO hard to do. It's like REMEMBERING yourself. I know that sounds crazy, but it was a big realization to me that not everyone completely fills their head with
"I can't do this" crap when they are facing some kind of emotional stuff. The positive self-talk is really about self-care. And when all of your body and mind are just on edge and all hormones and feelings tell you to RAGE and that it would actually feel good to yell and you are able to talk yourself down from there, well, that's an accomplishment.

mmgarda-







to you as you deal with so much in your life right now...

Also, mmgarda-I think it was you who mentioned on this thread (or another?) The Happiest Toddler book and speaking "toddler-ease". Wondering if you could share some of your insights from this book? If you'd like, you can PM me about it if it's a little OT.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Balrog thanks for joining in on this thread - I really liked your point of adjusting your expectations.


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## HotMama (Oct 26, 2002)

Another thanks to Balrog here. I really appreciated all the reminders in your post...remember dd's age, why hurry so much, etc. Great timing for us.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Hi again, Ladies,
I am coming here again for support. Things have gone better around here since I've made a BIG, conscious effort to remain calm and try to withdrawal attention from the "bad" behaviors my son exhibits (i.e., hitting).

Well, I've decided that those mamas who think they'll never yell, or be mean to their child just DON'T have a child like mine. He is RELENTLESS, ladies. I'm not even sure where I should post this. From the moment he wakes to the moment he goes to bed, he is a challenge on ALL levels. Most mornings since the baby has arrived (9.5 weeks ago) have started off with yelling, tears, etc. I CAN'T START MY DAY LIKE THIS ANYMORE. We co-sleep,and this is part of the problem. DS wakes and wants to be on the side with the baby. DS is also a very early waker (5:30-6am). The baby could sleep in much later if DS allowed it. I tell him it's too early, that we can have lots of snuggle time with the baby once everyone is up. He asked me to move the baby this morning and I did to my other side and asked if he wanted me to hold him. He said yes and of course I moved the baby and he followed the baby to my other side and continuued to BUG the little guy. He's sleeping! AHHHHHHH!

So, went to DS's official bedroom to change baby's diaper. Need light on (It's dark here at 6am). DS keeps turning it off. I turn it on, he turns it off. There is no way for me to keep him out of this room while I do this. I channeled my scary voice and said something low and gravelly about "Keeping the freakin' light on". DS immediately got scared. Put his face in the bed and covered his eyes. I was so angry I had to close our bedroom door and hit it with my fist (no one saw this, just heard it). I said some other choice words to my DH about how things HAVE to change immediately. DS just does not listen.

I know it's hard to believe, but we usually are fun people. In fact, even in the middle of this transition, we find humor, etc. So, we DO try to FOSTER an environment where DS *wants* to listen to us. BUT IT'S NOT WORKING. And I'm fearing that DS is getting harmed in some way from the yelling. No, it doesn't happen all the time, but it happens WAY more lately. I'm tired of. I'm sick of my son, and sick of myself.

I don't know really what to think of myself anymore. I just read and article about someone who recently died and everyone said this person was so "warm& kind". Well, I think these things could be said about me, but now I'm not so sure. Who am I if I this stuff continues???

I'm sorry I'm being so dramatic. I really feel at a "crossroads" I'm questioning everything. And questioning what I used to believe about myself. I used to think I was a good person. This is what I wanted for myself. The only thing I cared about. Now, I don't feel that I parent effectively AND I'm mean and yell and one of the people I love the most. Plus, I had a dysfunctional upbringing and now I feel that I am doing some days what I sworenever to do or be.

How do I get things to change? How can any human deal with the relentlessness of a child like mine and not get angered? How? Someone please tell me HOW????

SO much more, but I'm not even sure if this should be here.
Thanks for letting me vent
-BEars


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## Mommy&Will (May 22, 2003)

bearsmama,
Right now - go to a mirror and look in the mirror. Remind yourself that you JUST had a baby. Your hormones are all nutty right now. DON'T MINIMIZE this! Omigosh, if I look back at the last several months (Jack is now almost 5 months old) I realize how emotionally and physically DRAINED I was. I wasn't accepting that when I was "in the muck" of it all. And let me tell you - I'm embarrassed to admit that this is when my 2 year old learned the f work.... hmmm.... awful, isn't it?

Your ds is feeling this too, obviously.

I have really allowed myself to go into "slow" mode lately. I've forced myself to pause before reacting. I don't know. Maybe I've allowed myself to be more detached from the current state of things then I should. For example, dS runs through the house with his smoothie drink, dripping it across the floor. I just accept it. Then play a clean up game. Right now, I'm just trying to keep us all fed and clean. That's all I can do. (I was going to say fed, cleaned and clothed but no ones clothed half the day in this house! LOL!)

It sounds like your ds and my ds are a lot alike. I feel like Will is getting better finally. But he was out of control there for awhile. There is so much change going on for them right now. I just need to keep him busy, which is an endless feat. We take a lot of baths!

Also - have you ever tried taking Rescue Remedy? I swear it helped me. Every time I felt the anger coming on, I would just go immediately to the kitchen and put a few drops on my tongue. Just the act of going to the kitchen helped deter me yelling. I also have this face spray refresher with ginger in it and I spray that on my face. Will likes it too. I also give him Rescue Remedy on occasion in water. He also likes Gripe Water (of course, its so sugar laden.)

Hang in there. And try to find the humor in it all..... this is such a freakin' hard time but also one of the most amazing times of our lives.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Mommy&will-Thanks SO much for your words this morning. It means a lot to me as I start another day.

You know, I think there's something to be said for being detached a bit. I consider myself an AP parent (co-sleeping with two, nursing, babywearing, etc). But somehow these things combined with my neurosis has made me almost dependent (or co-dependent) on my son's behavior, if that makes any sense. I need to learn to remove myself from the equation, so-to-speak. I am constantly-and I mean CONSTANTLY-evaluating my parenting. It is such a burden to me and now I see how it is a burden to my child. I can't just get over things and move on. I make things bigger than they have to be.

Ive never tried Rescue Remedy, but I've heard great things. Do you know if you can take it while nursing?????

I thought I was letting some stuff go, and I, too, have just let the messes happen. This morning he ripped a book jacket/dust cover thing in half. I was going to say something and my DH said, "Let it go right now". And I think he's right. There's only so much getting into my DS's brain right now. And he's had such a hard time with this transition that he's become sort of mommy deaf. So, I am trying to just add the positive stuff into that little brain. But it is the hardest freakin' (my favorite word) thing I've ever done in my entire life. And I've been thru a lot in my life, and this is the hardest by far.

I just want to get to the point where I have some confidence about my parenting and that I can let things GO more. I have some major self-esteem issues, and I know that re-thinking every one of my parenting moments is directly related to this.

And like I said, we do have BIG senses of humor around here. We really do find the humor in most things in life. But this pastweekend and yesterday, WHEW! It was hard to laugh.

Thanks again, mommy&will. This thread is amazing. Really helps.


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## HotMama (Oct 26, 2002)

Oh yeah...how could I forget about Rescue Remedy when I became a mom? I'm getting some today. Bedtimes have been very hard for me and rescue sounds good









Bearsmama...You just had a baby!! Mommy&Will is right, you are in the midst of a tornado of hormones/emotions and you've gotta give yourself some slack. Can you get some help? Maybe a homeschooler a few days a week for a few weeks, either to hold the baby or play with your big guy? Get yourself some love, maybe spend more time in the bath, whatever...be in the moment, but also know that things WILL calm down in the coming months.


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## HotMama (Oct 26, 2002)

Rescue Remedy is safe for nursing, in my opinion. It is made with such a tiny bit of the flower essence that there is basically none in there. There is the alcohol, but you only use a few drops, and I think you could slug the whole bottle (not recommended, at that price get some good brandy!) without it being too much alcohol if you've just nursed. Definately worth no more than one drink.


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Gosh, being the mama is exhausting! I can totally empathize with everyone here. I beat myself up when I have a bad day with DS, and I need to stop having my mood be reliant on his.

One thing that has helped me is to expand my bag of tricks. I am very fortunate that I was raised with gentle discipline, so I have a great background. However, I don't have the innate sense of patience that my mom seemed to have, which is what gets me in trouble. So I have had to get a bigger bag of tricks.

First I read all that I can. Some of it is useful, some not so much. I always can discard what does not work for us. The book Becoming the Parent You Want to Be really helped me grow as a parent and to have more tools at my disposal. Of course coming here and having discussions with my IRL AP friends are great resources.

I also think it is important for our kids to see us come up short as long as we use it as a teaching moment. I have told my son, "Mommy is out of tricks today, and I am sorry that I lost my temper." My mom made everything look easy, so I never saw the darker moments and how she handled those. That also has been a huge revelation--apologizing to a toddler. I think it has made him more empathetic.

Deep breaths and calm heads to all the mamas here!


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## Mommy&Will (May 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Mommy&will-

Ive never tried Rescue Remedy, but I've heard great things. Do you know if you can take it while nursing?????









I asked this a couple months ago:
http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...=rescue+remedy

I'm also really, really trying to replace the f-ing word with the freaking word around here. LOL. : )


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Hotmama-Thanks so much for the support. Yes, I guess intellectually I know that things will calm down at some point. It's just remembering that in the moment that would help me.

annab-Thanks to you as well for your reply and supportive words. I had a mama who made everything seem hard. So I have to try to be in the middle-I need more easy-looking moments around here b/c I've really made things look very hard to my toddler for the past 9 weeks.

Mommy&will-Thank you for the thread link. I will buy some at Whole Foods ASAP-I need to make a special trip this week. So, I buy it in a tincture form (for the tongue?)? That will be my last question about RR, I swear!









Oh, and ladies, I'm trying something to help me keep things in perspective. I have a hard time "seeing the forrest for the trees". I often have a bad day and think somehow that things have been that bad forever or something. I have a part of my brain that's can be very fatalistic & negative. So, I'm writing down in my datebook (which is my bible) what kind of day I've had. So, at the end of a week or month I can really see that not EVERY day is bad. Yes, I might realize that 50% of the days have been awful, but that means that 50% of them have been good.

I can't thank you all enough for your support. I really, really, REALLY mean that. THANK YOU


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Oh-and Hotmama, we are actually looking for a mother's helper a few hours/week. Never hired a sitter before, but realized a few weeks ago that I really needed the help. I'm thinking that even 3 hours/week would be a wonderful little break. And good for my big son, too.


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## mom2savannah_grace (Jul 31, 2004)

You ladies have all been so inspiring to me, even in your most challenging moments. I, too, am a yeller. My mom was a yeller and so was her mom. What a vicious cycle! I am determined that it stops here and my dd will not continue this!!

I found this thread a few days ago after having an especially difficult day with dd. I never come into this forum, but for some reason I did on this particular day (I think I was gently nudged by some higher power). Anyway, I vowed right then and there I was going to change my attitude and accept the fact that dd is 2 and she is just trying to find her independence. I remind myself that each day is a new day and I can't let the previous day's events affect how I am feeling today.

The last two days I have gone into dd's room when she wakes up with a smile on my face and in my voice. I have not raised my voice even once even though there were times she really pushed me to the limit and even hit me in anger. Normally that would really set me off. Dh is so proud of me for wanting to change (I have never heard him raise his voice in the 13 yrs we have been together).

I just wanted to thank you all for being so honest and providing a safe place to talk about this. I am sure I will be back for support for as much as I would like the yelling days to be behind me, I am sure I will mess up here and there, but I will be accountable to you all as well as dh.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

mom2savannah-







This thread has helped me tremendously. I hope it can be the same sense of support for you. Welcome.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

mom2savannah_grace


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Eight Weapons in the War on Anger

That's from Nancy Samalin's website (www.samalin.com) author of







"Loving Your Child is Not Enough: Positive Discpline that Works" and "Love and Anger"

I heard her talk the other night at my local preschool and she mentioned that page was on her website.

*RESOURCES* Wow - she has a







great list of resources on her website:

http://www.samalin.com/resources/index.html#experts


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Tanibani-Thanks for the great resources.

Also, how do you all deal with exhaustion-induced anger? For instance, I have been paying real close attention to the manner in which I speak to DS. Really trying very hard to control my anger and yelling. But dealing with a child like mine (and yours, I'm sure) means a lot of stuffed feelings, right? Like if you try really hard to avoid yelling, that feeling gets put away for the moment. We had a great day today. Then, we hit bathtime and we were both exhausted. He gave me a really hard time about the bath and changing a diaper. I managed to do well through all. And then when we were climbing into bed he wanted this Curious George doll (which he has never asked for before) and I just got so damn grumpy and angry with him. So damn ridiculous. I apologized to him a few minutes later, but how can I avoid this in the future???

TIA.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Ideally, keeping calm shouldn't equal stuffing down your feelings, (not to say it doesn't ever) because if you do, eventually you'll blow.

The better method is to change your perspective and avoid the anger in the first place. The Easy to Love Difficult to Discipline book is all about how to change yourself so you don't get angry so often in the first place.

I'm not able to always change my perspective yet, but when I can it does help. Reminding myself, "This moment is as it is and I can handle it," is a good first step at remaining calm. Also trying to see the positive intent behind the negative behavior will also help a lot (thought, again, this isn't something I am great at yet, believe me).

If you are stuffing down those negative feelings than you need to find a way to release them productively. Walk into another room and yell into a pillow if you have to or count slowly to 10 and breathe deeply. Whatever works for you.


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## arcenciel (Nov 26, 2001)

Hi,

I've been lurking for a while now







- didn't feel I much new to add. But I like this question. I guess we do often feel angry and then talk ourselves out of it. One thing I found helped me was to acknowledge my own feelings - like saying to myself (in my head) with a voice like a 3 year old, "I don't want to cook dinner for these 3 screaming kids. I want to go out for a walk by myself....."

And then after I acknowledge my feelings, let it be OK for me to feel that, it kind of puts it in perspective too. Because if I was consciously thinking that I would react differently from if I was just feeling it inside without voicing it.

- dcm, thanks for the reminder about that dialogue. You're right it's a good thing to remind myself that I can't change it (even if I wished my dh hadn't of.....) and that I can handle it!
Maybe I'll try some post-its!


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## nuggetsmom (Aug 7, 2002)

Well, I don't have a solution either but I wanted to add that this is my worst time too. The end of the day, when I am tired and the baby is tired and fussy. Usually that is when DD1 decides to pee her pants while sitting on the couch or somethign too. Plus she gets resistant to going in the bath, gettting out, putting on her PJ's whatever. She slows down so much that we have a 2 hour bedtime routine and it is getting to me. Cleaning up the poop and pee is getting to me too so she is going into pullups so I don't do something I regret. The irony is that at preschool she NEVER has an accident but at home she does. Even since DH had his knee surgery.
ONe book I am finding helpful is "the anger habit". It helped me to see that my anger is a habit that got reinforced because it works. If I get angry, DD1 will get with the program KWIM. OF course, at what cost? But it does help me to look at it as a habit, and to acknowledge that although I am solely responsible for the anger, it is an interaction and DD1 has her part in that. Once you step out of the interaction, the other person will step up their behavior because you are not behaving according to the pattern anymore. This is true of adults and children I think.

Good luck and big hug


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## Mommy&Will (May 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nuggetsmom*
Once you step out of the interaction, the other person will step up their behavior because you are not behaving according to the pattern anymore. This is true of adults and children I think.

Good luck and big hug


That is so true, isn't it?
"If you want others to be happy, show compassion."
"If you want to be happy, show others compassion."
(Dalai Lama)


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## mami2f3 (Jan 8, 2003)

Thank you all so much for this thread. It really was just what i needed. I was already jsut starting to work on this so the timing is great.

One thing that I foudn helped me was to get to why my self-talk was so full of "I can't handle this." because that seemed to fuel my anger. So I looked at where my sense of incompetence at being a mom came from in my past and at first it didn't make sense to me: I've never been a mom before. But then I realized that when I was little I had on some level decided that I needed to take care of my mom (she was single). Of course as a little one, I coudln't really "mother" my mom, but I took that on and then always felt incompetent. Well, once I saw that I was basing my current actions on the assumption that I couldn't do it well because of this past, it really lifted a cloud for me.

Now, at least, when I do get mad (which is less often) I am less likely to spiral down in my "I'm a bad mom" stuff. And like you've all said with the positive talk--well now there's a space for the positive talk because I can wipe "I can't handle this" off the slate if YKWIM...

Anyway, thank you to everyone for all these posts. You don't know how much it's needed!!


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## HotMama (Oct 26, 2002)

Wow...good things to think about. When I lived with my mom (disabled...we got to experience both neglect and abuse), I was the "mother." I cooked, cleaned, etc to the extent I was able at 4 years or so...I never connected that it could be helping me feel inadaquete as a mother today. This makes sense when I think about when I tend to get angry...it's when I start thinking about how I am seen as a parent (usually).

It makes sense that the most deep sinking direction I've been given lately (in both co-counseling and meditation) is acceptance. I have always kind of accepted myself in the way I want to be, never really accepting that I may not be the mom that happily fills the car with muddy kids covered with ice cream. I am learning to accept who I am (I prefer less mud in the car and ice cream is for special occasions and not right before dinner...can you tell this was a recent issue for me?) Right now I'm kinda rigid and certain things floor me. It was so important to try and keep things clean, etc to look normal, no wonder I'm still this way. One thing I do notice, is that when I accept where I am, I have more slack and can be more flexible. So, I accept that I'm rigid and it makes me more flexible...that sounds kinda zen, huh?


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

You ladies are awesome...







I get so much from all of you. From this thread, from all of MDC...









Got so much out of recent posts. Mami2f3-I could have written your post. I immediately go to "I can't handle this" b/c of my own experience being parented. And it directly affects my parenting. I think I've said this before, but I think it took me 30+ years to realize that not *everyone*fills their head with negativity about themselves and their abilities. There are people with healthy self-esteem who can say to themselves on some level that they can handle what comes their way. They remember to breathe, take care of themselves. I've learned a lot, but I still rarely can put this all into practice. But I'm learning...

Hotmama-I really believe that it's all about acceptance...on every level. But most importantly, self-acceptance. So hard, but so worth trying to acheive. I think all my negative behaviors stem from this. And I think that this is where MOST negative stuff stems from in the world. Think about it: one mama feels so bad about herself and then parents her children with a sense of shame or worthlessness, never accepting herself. Then, her children feel the same. And it just keeps getting passed on and on and on.....


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## wildfarmsmama (Jun 27, 2003)

Hi, yes, i've been known to yell but i'm proud to say that I made it all the way to when I had a 3yo and a 18mo old before I'd ever lost it! I have 1 8yo girl who is so sweet, always helps and wants to please me. I have a boy 6 that whines, hides and ignores me all the time!







And the 2yo is pretty innocent yet and I see him more as following his impuses. So I'm glad that only 1 of the 3 triggers me, I usually just want help cleaning up. Dh is pretty gentle but he cannot be reponsible for trying to get the boy to clean up or he gets frustrated too....so I've been trying to get chores more scheduled and it seems to be helping....

Anyhow I have a trick---when I feel like yelling I whisper---
Everone whispered "Why are we whispering????"
I said "So I don't YELL!!!"
"Ohhhhhh" they whispered
And now they know that if they get past the whisper there'll be trouble, I haven't gone there yet!






















to all of you, you can't fix a problem if you never admit there is one


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## arcenciel (Nov 26, 2001)

Wow! Maybe the not coping is the key? I knew for a while that it was my thing. My recent therapy has helped me also trace it back to my childhood and feeling I had to look after my Mum, which as you all said, is something that we couldn't cope with then. So now it's usually something little that starts me off. Somebody drops something on the clean floor, etc. which doesn't matter when I feel good, but if I'm finding it hard is just enough to make me lose it.

Bearsmama - I would have classed myself as one of those people full of self-esteem, etc because I really am a confident person. I can handle anything. Except my kids sometimes... I don't think I ever had a bigger challenge in my life









Thanks for keeping this going and reminding me of what I want to be doing.


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## Livi's Mama (Apr 25, 2003)

I lurked through the original thread. Just found this new one - so far have only had time to read pages 1 & 16. Sorry if this is a repeat, but I want to recommend the book "How to Behave so your Children Will, Too." Good ideas for parents of toddlers to teens. Thanks all for your ideas & sharing bad days. Slowly but surely we will all improve!


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## mom2savannah_grace (Jul 31, 2004)

Well I almost made it a full week without yelling. I was so proud of myself up until yesterday. I don't even remember what the initial trigger was, but I blew up big time and even threw my own temper tantrum by stomping my feet while screaming







:

I know part of it was triggered by dd's clinginess and whining yesterday. And if she didn't get her way, she decided to hit me (which is usually always a trigger for my yelling). At one point I had to call dh to come home from work (it was about time for him anyway) because I knew I was going to lose it soon (and I did-you'd think I could've stopped knowing how I was feeling). I left the house 10 minutes after dh got home because everything was hunky dory in dd's eyes while she was happily playing with dh. Made me feel even lower than I already did.

I tried today waking up with a brand new attitude because it's a brand new day, but it's really not working. She is really pushing my patience and I have already felt my blood boiling almost to the point of explosion (which I may have if I hadn't been in public when this behavior was occurring). I have been trying to stay calm, use self-talk, ignoring the behaviors, but nothing is working today. I am so glad I am going away for the weekend without dd and dh. It couldn't come at a better time.

Thanks for letting me vent and giving me a safe place to do so. I promised myself I would be accountable to you all which is why I am posting this even though I am embarrassed by my behavior. Here's to the strength to make it through the afternoon and evening after she gets up from her nap.


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Here is something that I have been trying, but I don't know how well it will work for others. I imagine that either someone I admire is in the room or that a camera is on me at all times. How would I want people to see me parent? What would my GC mom think if she saw me yell at her most precious grandson? If I just pretend that all the world knows what I am doing, then I do much better than if I think I am working in private.


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## DecemberSun (Jul 6, 2003)

That's a GREAT idea annab... I'll have to try that.









I have a 22 mo. old son and a 20 mo. old drug-exposed foster daughter (as well as an 8 yr. old foster daughter with medical problems), so yelling is a regular thing around here... In 7 months we went from parents of 0 to parents of 3!!! I've just been trying to make it from day to day by keeping the household going, and making sure the kids are alive and fed, with all the chaos and screaming going on, and my temper has been short. But I realized that I don't want to be like my father- I don't want to be yelling constantly, I don't want to be angry and stressed all the time. I want to be the mother I thought I'd be before I had kids. :LOL I know that every day my kids are learning and growing, and that every thing they do is another opportunity to learn a life lesson. I don't want my kids to learn that their mama is mean, and she yells a lot.

Ugh. It really is hard to change a learned behaviour, especially one that comes out when my emotions are running rampant and I don't feel in control of my feelings sometimes. Like when I'm mad, I'm MAD. And it takes me awhile to cool off. Ive been getting better... But I do lose my patience more often than I'd like to, and I do better when I'm around others so I'm going to take annab's advice and try to imagine that someone is watching me.







I know I'll feel better if I can read about others' experiences, and get direction, opinions, and advice... Thanks mamas...


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Hi Ladies,
Welcome to Decembersun...sounds like you have a lot going on in your house. Remember to breathe...

Easier said than done for me today. I had a major freak-attack this morning. DS#1 is sick, and I was trying to get him into his car seat and this has been such a huge power struggle for us lately. The whole week I went w/out freaking out. But we had an appointment and he just refused to get in (some may say I should *make* him get in, but that doesn't work around here). I yelled at him. I'm not a name caller, but when I lose it, I lose it. I had to cancel the appointment, the one for which my DH had stayed home to help me, and then I brought DS into the house and just lost it. DS was in the kitchen, and I was a distance away and just did one of those "release" screams. Just at the top of my lungs, out of control. DS was so scared. I had to leave the house for a few minutes and then came back in and apologized to him and then had to leave again to gain some control.

How do you all deal with a REALLY challening child? What happens when you're pushed to the limit???


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## DecemberSun (Jul 6, 2003)

For me, when I get to that point- when everything/ everyone gets on my nerves- I take a moment alone to recharge and start over. If that means popping in a video for the kids so I can go outside and water my flowers, or just go into my room for a minute, I'll do it. I know that doesn't help you with a challenging child, but that's what I do when I feel like I can't handle it. It usually only takes a few minutes and I can "start over" and I feel much better.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

December-Thank you. I have to really get to know my triggers even better so I can nip these things in the bud before they happen.


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## boomingranny (Dec 11, 2003)

I've been lurking on this thread for a long time. Just wanted to give a shout out. As a single parent I have had to come up with creative ways of cooling off.

and I constantly pray for more patience and serenity...

peace


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## mommaluv321 (Aug 14, 2004)

Hey ladies, glad to know this thread is here!! I've been trying for a long time to stifle my inherited anger; my mom's is worse than mine and my grandma's was worse that her's. This is something that I feel I definately do NOT want to pass on to my 2 girls. I had a pretty good handle on it before the arrival of dd #2. Now I just find myself blowing up all the time again







: It's so frustrating...which is probably part of the problem, I get stuck in loops of frustration and anger and it takes me a long time to cool back down. Dh helps alot, he is a really calm kinda guy, unfortunately I think that I have helped him discover his angry side







. I'm looking for advice on how to deal w/ a very girly (which I am not) fairly whiney and VERY emotional 31/2 yo. Any and all suggetions would be greatly appreciated, as I feel that I am dealing w/ some sibling rivalry, not negative at all but more of the energy draining kind. Some times I feel that it's all I can do is to just get out of bed!! Maybe there's a lil depression going on too (I just proof-read, and that what it seems like) Any way, thanks for reading my rant


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## HotMama (Oct 26, 2002)

Also remember that 3 1/2 is classically a difficult age for parents to deal with. It's hard and something new and different is around the corner.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

mommaluv&boomin-









Anyone ever read Loving Your Child is Not Enough-Positive Discipline That Works by Nancy Samalin??? She has a good section on anger. I think she does workshops and stuff, too.


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## mami2f3 (Jan 8, 2003)

mom2savannahgrace and bearsmama I am HEARING you!!
What you have shared is really where I am and it's so hard to get out of it. And it seems that once I'm triggered, I can't get out of the rut. I mean I've gotten really angry in the past two weeks and while I will pass a day or so with no big blow ups, I feel that I am a time bomb. I mean anything can send me off. And I can't bring the anger level down to zero--I can cool off a bit, but I can' t seem to get back to happy mommy. The other morning, I went to sleep late (my fault? I had work to do) the night before and ds2woke up at like 5 something, which dh kind of handled (it's a tiny house, nohting goes on wihtout everyones participation), ds2 was in the bathroom with dh and ds1 wanted to get in but ds2 was holding the door closed. Dh kept telling ds1 to go around to the other side, but ds1 kept pushing and then yelling and making ds2 yell and I LOST it! I yelled, "Do what your father says!" and grabbed him and took him around and put him in through the other door. He started yelling and screaming and I picked him up and put him in his bed and told him to stay there. I was yelling all this and so was he. It was pretty ugly.

In that moment how do I get back to GD? HOw do I stop the rage in my head/body?

I did eventually go back and apologize bigtime and hug/kiss etc., but ACK! What am I teaching him? (that's rhetorical, I know the awful example I am setting.

Interesting: my parents weren't yellers. Where does this come from?


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

mami2F3-









The only thing that helps me at all is trying self-talk. But it's WAY hard to give yourself the postive words when all you want to do is yell.

You know, I think even if you don't come from yellers, kids will make you ANGRY. It's just normal. Wouldn't it be weird to hear of a mama who NEVER got angry with her child? It's not the anger that's the problem, it's what we do with it, right?

We are all struggling with something. I don't think you're setting an awful example. I just think you sound like the rest of the mamas I know and the mamas here who struggle with these issues. Keep trying,mama. And know that we're all out here...


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## CountryGirl (Aug 20, 2004)

I too am a yeller. And I hate it. I find myself getting so angry at my almost 3 yo and 16 mo that i'm yelling at them almost constantly. I don't want to be this person, and I definitely don't want my kids to be this way. I hear my ds yelling sometimes, and that's just wrong. I don't want yelling to be what he gets from me. What can I do to curb this behavior?

Advice?
J


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

... but I've been reading.

I've noticed a lot of people posting their issues with yelling. If you've read earlier posts here, you know it's one of my big issues, too. I just wanted to share a situation that happened in my house last night.

Both DH and DS have colds and stayed home yesterday. I work at home, so it was a bit of a pain to have them around. Generally DS (almost 3) was very well-behaved, but by evening he had run out of steam. I have several major projects I've taken on and had to handle a few unexpected calls yesterday that totally disrupted my work, so I was STILL working at 7:15 PM, when dinner was finally ready.

DH was trying to get DS to do something and DS was refusing and whining and grumping. DH has a tendency to be cajoling and wheedling w/ DS, which I totally hate, and I was losing patience with all of them. Basically DS was hungry and I was trying to get everyone to the table to eat. When DS started melting down, I hit boiling point.

With the last whine, I turned to him and yelled, "HEY!" fully intending to continue yelling at him to leave the room until he could control himself. I lucked out enough, at that moment to catch him when he was taking a breath and actually looking at me. I realized that I was yelling and about to blow, so I stopped for a second and took a breath.

Here's what I ended up saying: "Calm down, please. Let's take a deep breath, ok? Cuz I'm getting really frustrated, too." [Deep breath] "Oh, I think I need another one, ok?" [Deep breath] "Wait, one more for me." [Deep breath] "Now, why are you upset?" DS was able to tell us what his issue was (didn't want to go potty before eating) and so we were able to give him an alternative (go after dinner, before show) and everyone got to the table.

It's nice to share the successes, however small.


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## Greensleeves (Aug 4, 2004)

Hi, I'm a mama,
and it's been......2 hours 10 minutes since I've yelled.








I've been trying to make my way through the first thread and this one. That first thread has some wonderful ideas! I'm so relieved to find other mamas struggling through this and I want to hold myself accountable. My dd is only 19 months old for stink's sake! She is napping right now but I feel sick to my stomach about my yelling at her earlier. I have been under so much stress lately and sleep deprived, and all the mean ghosts from my childhood are hovering about me when a stressful situation arises.
I keep thinking, if only I could stop everything for a few days and breathe, I could start all over.
I think this weekend I am going to pick a day and go out for a few hours alone. I've been wanting to do it but life gets in the way. I think I need to let go of the guilt about getting away and realize it will actually be better for my baby girl. I can become the more patient mama that she deserves.







to other mamas and thanks for sharing your struggles too.


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Greensleeves, I'm glad you joined us! The guilt is just horrible, isn't it? And you are SO right. Letting go of that guilt is a MUST. If you hold onto it, then you feel worse about yourself and are then much more likely to have an even shorter fuse. There is a huge and very important difference between guilt and regret.

In addition to positive inner dialogue, what I have had the most success with is simply not taking the tantrums and push-button behaviors personally. I think that in the midst of some of my dc's "worst" behavior, I have a tendency to think "If I were an effective parent then my children wouldn't be behaving this way." Which is an idiotic thing to think, but I think it's also a pretty common fallacy. So just yesterday, as my older dd was melting down in the back seat and had been carrying on in a VERY annoying way for more than ten minutes, as I was on the verge of really laying into her verbally, I thought to myself, "This is not my issue. She is tired, she needs to release some stress, so let her do it. It isn't about you." And I turned up the volume on the radio just a bit so I could hear the music, I let her fuss and fume in the back, and not long after we got home, we were both fine. That may sound strange but simply releasing myself as being the catalyst or the cure for her state of mind made it possible for me to not react negatively to her.
Not sure if that is helpful or not, but there it is! :LOL


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## mmgarda (Dec 30, 2002)

Greensleeves - I remember the 18-22 month period being one of the hardest to handle. New mobility and independece = difficult toddler!


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Hi Everyone,
Not much time tonight, but I saw Fianna's post and wanted to chime in. Fianna-I've been coming to big realizations about my parenting and my children's behavior, too. And what you said about your DD's behavior not being about YOU really hit home for me. This is a big issue for me. I've been sort of co-dependent on DS's behavior for a long time. I've always thought that his behavior was a reflection of my parenting. And my realization is that it is NOT always about me. Yes, sometimes it is (like if I've woken up on the wrong side of the bed). Letting myself "off the hook" a bit has really helped me. In fact, a little de-taching for this attached mama has really helped. I wonder if this rings true for others???
Oh, and the positive self-talk really helps, too. But this is a toughie for me.

Thanks Fianna and others tonight. I'm checking in but no time tonight.


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## CharlieBrown (Jan 20, 2004)

I have been lurking off and on for some time. i am a yeller, too. I am trying to stop. I am very busy right now but hope to start posting regularly by next week.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

mmgarda-I'm so sorry about your recent miscarriage.


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## silica (Sep 15, 2003)

ANGER!!!!

I haven't felt anger this much and often since I lived at home with my brother. I'm 32, Dds 2.5 and 14 mo. Dd1 is whiny/crying/screaming dramatic child (I've got another post about that, specifically).

Thank you for pointing out that their emotions are THEIRS...this is so hard to remember. I have such a hard time drawing emotional boundaries, I guess. And doing so would probably be a much better example for my 2 dds; I don't want to raise two co-dependant doormats, after all.

DH has been out of work since mid-January, and this has plusses (he's always OK with helping with the kids when I need it), but the minuses (aside from $$) are that I still feel like I have to try hard to keep the girls away from him/or I do things differently, just knowing he's around; nap time can become "quickie" time instead of "mom time," which is not all bad, but then mom time somehow dissapears...

Anyhow, over the last few months, I have been having rage like never before. I would not describe myself as a yeller. I think most people would think me a sort of calm person. But between regular marriage-straining fights with DH (one night I really really wanted to hit him, I just felt crazed) and horrifying anger at my older daughter (I have grabbed her roughly & yelled on more than one occasion) I hardly recognize myself. Some days I feel I'm on a hair trigger. I know that on other days the same thing would happen & I could deal with it...and I just can't.

The combo of the $$ situation (I had been doing a very small amount of work from home, and now unemployment $ will end in a month) and the out-of-control anger has gotten me to take a part-time job outside the home. I start Wed. at a picture-framing place. Mostly I was looking for a calm, methodical environment where I could do "work meditation" with little thought or responsibility, and return home refreshed rather than burnt out. It's 6-hr shifts 4x a week, though, and I'm having some anxiety. I think the kids are ready for 4 hr stretches with DH, but not sure about 6. They're both still nursing. This would just be over the holidays, though, 2 mo.

Am I crazy? is this a reasonable thing to try? It's hard not to feel like a failure for wanting...no feeling like I HAVE to get away from my kids to get myself together.

DH says "it's an unknown, just try it."


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## mami2f3 (Jan 8, 2003)

I REALLY support you taking the job. You have to do what you have to do to provide for your family. and I think the methodical work sounds appealing too. not too draining, hopefully. It is really hard to lengthen those hours between nursing--pump break? Look, there are no perfect options in this world, but at least dh is home to take the dcs. anyway, i just want you to know you are supported.

And I am right there with the 'hair trigger' and it's really been a lot lately and i'm trying to stop trying to figure out why and just correct it. one thing i've been trying is in the moment to tell myself, "I am for their greatness. Is this (the action I'm taking/words I'm saying) for his greatness?" and then I can at least contemplate stopping.

It's worked a few times, but I'll keep you posted!


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## BJSkolnik (Aug 26, 2003)

I haven't had a chance to read all the posts yet in either thread, but just found this and needed to post to subscribe so i can come back. I have never lost my temper with dd (2) before, but i did tonight. yelled at her and left her in the bed and left the room. dh was really upset to and screamed at her, which made me feel worse. dd was having bad day, screamed and cryed for no apparent reason on and off for 7 hours tonight. finally let her "win" and get out of bed and she fell asleep on floor in living room. she has never fallen asleep anywhere like that before! can't wait to have time to be awake and read the threads. thanks for being here!


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## Greensleeves (Aug 4, 2004)

Fianna, thanks for the welcome!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fianna*
. I think that in the midst of some of my dc's "worst" behavior, I have a tendency to think "If I were an effective parent then my children wouldn't be behaving this way."

Oh man, this is so true. In the moment that the behavior is happening, I am processing all these thoughts like, "I'm a terrible parent....she's always going to act this way.......this is how it starts........She's acting like that kid did in Barnes and Noble today.......my mom was a crappy parent and now I don't know how to be a good mom" Uuuggh.

I think what you pointed out is so important, we have to detach ourselves from our child's behavior. I wonder if it's hard for AP moms because we are such feeling persons and used to empathizing with our child? Is that what you mean by codependent, Bears mama? That we find it difficult to separate the responsibilty for our child's behavior from our own? Wow, light bulbs are really going off for me here. Because my mom often made me responsible for HER feelings and behavior and that really messed me up.

looking forward to more discussion


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## Greensleeves (Aug 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmgarda*
Greensleeves - I remember the 18-22 month period being one of the hardest to handle. New mobility and independece = difficult toddler!

Thanks, this too shall pass! She has definitely entered a new frontier. She's always been very assertive and vocal with me, which I love, but when I'm frazzled and her demands have been just constant, I can't handle it. And she is getting very "my way or the highway", wanting to do things that she is just too small to do, and getting angry when I prevent them.

I think yesterday was really challenging because we both were sleep deprived, and I took us out to an activity because I thought she needed the stimulation and activity, when what she really needed was a bunch of sleep! It's been hard for me to balance respecting her requirement for sleep/down time vs. socialization. Me, I'm happy at home but she is very outgoing and loves people, and I want to encourage that aspect of her personality. But I don't want to ignore her needs either.

Ah, it's all a balancing act, I guess.


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## Nursingnaturalmom (Jan 1, 2003)

I LOVE this thread!
I too am a yeller. My Mom was also a yeller and I just don't know any different. I do okay for awhile and then WHAM I lose it. I can feel it when I start getting to my ends. Its almost like I can feel my blood pressure rise. I am trying to reconginze that at that point I need to step away.

Of course I too am married to a very patient man. He never tells me to stop yelling and loves me in spite of it.

I'm trying.

I have 4 girls. 9,4.5,almost 3 and 5 months.
Chandi


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