# Babies Change! Nightwakings are not forever!



## Too Busy (Apr 3, 2004)

Heck I am not a BTDT and I even know this... I am disturbed by the number of posts in this forum about letting babies CIO, nightweaning before 1 year and statements that your baby will not sleep unless you do.

This is MDC, right?

BABIES CHANGE, MAMAS! They way your baby is today will not last forever. The effects of CIO or premature weaning will. Its not fair for our little ones to bear the burden of our exhaustion alone. We are adults and have the ability to make changes to our own behaviors to cope with sleep deprivation. Our babies/children have little understanding of why mama would suddenly stop responding or why their beloved "nursies" are gone.

Here are some ideas that help me cope:

*Take it one night/day at a time*- don't think about the future when your struggling. Just worry about the present, your baby could be completely different tomorrow.

*Take it easy on yourself*- accept that your home will not be perfect and your laundry will not always get done. Eat things that make you feel good, rather than stress about calories, etc.

*Don't be afraid to ask for help!*Ask a friend, neighbor, family member to help you cook or clean. Hire a trustworthy teen or friend to "play" with your baby while you get some rest. Reach out to your DH, DW, DP- afterall they are a parent as well. Admitting you can't do it all yourself is a big step.

*Do whatever works*If your baby sleeps better with you, and you do, too, THEN DO IT! Don't worry about setting "bad habits", you cannot spoil a baby. Responding their cues is being a good, attached parent.

*Conserve your energy*Don't do physcially exhausting work or play. Find a playgroup or playgym that will allow your DC to interact with other kids and adults while you observe. If exercise drains you rather than helps, just stop for a while. Plenty of time for that later!

I know it is hackneyed, but I have to say it- they are only this small for a short time. This period will fade away and we will hardly remember the sleep deprivation and effects. We'll wish we could turn back the clock when they are tween, teens and eventually adults.

My point:
This is not the right place to advocate for CIO or early nightweaning. Its just not an option here. If you do it, fine, but in this forum we mamas are hear to discuss alternatives that allow our DC's a voice. There is a lot of that going on and it is just not in line with MDC's purpose or the title of this forum.

I am not passing judgement on you, if your choose CIO- but the mamas here do not do it and don't want to hear about you doing it. There are a million places for you to go and talk about CIO. If you'd like some links, please PM me.


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## Bethkm (Jun 27, 2003)

Amen! Thanks for the perspective!


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

thanks for posting this!


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## marice (May 6, 2004)

Thank you for your post!!!!

I have been really disturbed by some posts here lately and have wanted to respond but didn't know how to do it in a gentle way. You said it perfectly!


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## Mama J Rock (Apr 2, 2004)

Exactly!


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Great Post!









I don't want to hear about CIO or early night-weaning, either! And I have been responding to some of these threads that advocate ENW. I don't know how gentle I have been (I try not to be harsh) but I do try to state the facts.

Let's all respond with the facts in order to maintain the MDC concensus that CIO and ENW are just not advocated here!


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## bunny's mama (Nov 19, 2001)

well, sorry to dissent here. but who died and made you goddess?

who defines what "early" nightweaning is? some folks would say anything less than 12 months. others would say less then 18 mos. or even less than 2 years.

everyone has a different tolerance level for night nursing. there are single mamas here and working mamas and others who need to be up at 8 am and on top of their game. not everyone can nap when baby naps. not everyone has people they can go to for help. and many mamas are just trying to survive day to day.

to a mama who has expereinced night waking every 1-2 hours, just about every night for 6 months, or the mama who is extremely burned out and angry and resentful because her child just won't fall asleep at what she considers a reasonable hour the thought that "this will pass" (when?? in like A YEAR??)is NOT very comforting.

i believe that we are all loving, caring mamas here. we are also all AP mamas, or we wouldn't be here. no one has any right to tell someone to leave these boards because she is struggling mightily with sleep issues and is so desperate she decides to nightwean or try a modified CIO. frankly, maybe i've missed something, but i haven't seen a single post here where someone says "well, just put him in his crib and shut the door and let him cry, that'll teach him!" what i have seen are many mamas at the point of desperation (and if you haven't been there yourself, you have no right to judge. it is a HORRIBLE place) who are struggling to come up with somethign that will work for them.

let's support EVERYONE here without insinuating that someone is a bad parent for making choices that work for her but may not be in line with what YOU feel is right for you (or within your definition of AP).

judge not...


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## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

I think you make a lot of great points, but also should keep in mind that different families do have different needs, and some kids just won't naturally let their families get the rest they need. When my son was about 8 months old, my husband and I were both having hallucinations during the day because we were getting so little sleep. Our circumstances allowed us to find other ways to (just barely) cope, but people without supportive partners and flexible jobs sometimes just can't live that way.

(My son is 4 now, incidentally, and it's only been in the past 6 months that his nightwakings have been reduced to "only" twice a night. Some people's bodies are fine with that, but when it takes me at least an hour to fall asleep after being woken, it's a big deal. More than four years does kind of feel like forever.)


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

I have to agree...

My first NEVER slept. Honestly, he was a every 45 minute nurser, both day and night, he would *only* sleep with me beside him, I had hallucinations due to lack of sleep, I couldn't drive, because I kept dozing off at the wheel....it was HORRID. Truly.

He's now almost 6. He sleeps all night, alone in his own bed, with some help transitioning to sleep. He wakes up in the morning, without crying, without fussing. He gets the rest he needs, and without the horrors of some stories I've heard about kids forced to sleep through before they were ready. He was about 3 before he ever slept through, about 3.75 before it happened regularly. But it does get better.

Now, I'm frustrated with two nightwakers. My toddler is 26 months and nowhere near ready to sleep through, she's up at least once, most nights 2-3 times. My infant is almost 13 months, and up hourly, if not more. I am back to that exhausted state that I thought I'd never get back to, I can't drive my kids anywhere, especially in the late afternoon or evening.

That said, I think that the idea here is respecting our children's needs. Whether they are 3 months, 13 months, or 13 years, their needs are still needs. That is not to disrespect a mother's need for rest....honestly. I KNOW how it is to go on no sleep. Heck, dh was complaining today that he only got about 6 hours of sleep last night and I almost hit him! :LOL Okay, not really hit him, but you get the idea. I haven't had 6 straight hours of sleep in *years*......

But my needs are secondary to my kids' need for me. I need sleep, yes. But they need ME. And in 10 years, when they are all sleeping through...I know for a fact that I'm going to truly miss those middle of the night snuggle/nurse sessions. I'm going to miss the fact that they need me so desperately. Even ds has started asking me not to kiss him goodbye when I take him to school. WHAT?!?!!







He's not even Six, for goodness sake!!! This, THIS is the child that wouldn't let me out of his sight for the first 2.5 years of his life? This is the child who nursed constantly for his first year? This is the child who woke up crying if I snuck out of bed for a little







time with Daddy? And now he's wiping off my kisses?

Things do change, and so quickly.....it makes me tear up to think how quickly it is all changing. And while it is difficult, I try really hard to remember that when I've been up for 2-3 hours straight in the middle of the night because the girls have been alternating their waking....My babies are growing up, and soon they won't need me like this....and my question to myself will always be

Did I respect them enough? Did I treat their needs as importantly as my own?

So that's just my opinion on the subject.....


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

I agree with the OP. I think taking issue with her post is odd--she is just supporting the purpose of these boards. She made excellent alternative suggestions. I think they all are valid and should be well exhausted before approaching a less AP/CIO stance. For me, CIO would never be an option. Child are the ultimate in self-sacrifice. And we need to be aware of that.

This stood out to me in the thread...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *APMom98*

That said, I think that the idea here is respecting our children's needs. Whether they are 3 months, 13 months, or 13 years, their needs are still needs. That is not to disrespect a mother's need for rest....honestly. I KNOW how it is to go on no sleep.....

But my needs are secondary to my kids' need for me. I need sleep, yes. But they need ME.....

This is SO true. A mother has to sacrifice. And a child needs a mom. I worked full-time, went to school full-time and my SO worked full-time. We have no daycare. But despite all these things, we managed to not resort to desperate measures by simply keeping it in perspective.

For me, parenting is about the child, not about me. I will lose sleep and find ways to make up for it. Self sacrifice, so seldom heard of in our culture, is a way of life for so many. When I became a mother, I also learned to not be selfish. I really examined my life and realized I would sacrifice something, like the Internet or reading a book, for my child. Seems everyone I know has time to do other things, but not comfort their child through the night? Seems odd?


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meco*
I agree with the OP. I think taking issue with her post is odd--she is just supporting the purpose of these boards. She made excellent alternative suggestions. I think they all are valid and should be well exhausted before approaching a less AP/CIO stance. For me, CIO would never be an option. Child are the ultimate in self-sacrifice. And we need to be aware of that.

This stood out to me in the thread...

This is SO true. A mother has to sacrifice. And a child needs a mom. I worked full-time, went to school full-time and my SO worked full-time. We have no daycare. But despite all these things, we managed to not resort to desperate measures by simply keeping it in perspective.

For me, parenting is about the child, not about me. I will lose sleep and find ways to make up for it. Self sacrifice, so seldom heard of in our culture, is a way of life for so many. When I became a mother, I also learned to not be selfish. I really examined my life and realized I would sacrifice something, like the Internet or reading a book, for my child. Seems everyone I know has time to do other things, but not comfort their child through the night? Seems odd?


ITA
Self-sacrifice is seldom talked about because it takes getting out of your comfort zone. Which we seldom feel like doing at times.
I also agree with the origional poster. I, like everyone else here have needs- but my dc's needs come first. As an adult I have the awe-inspiring duty to care for them, so I am willing to sacrifice at times.Childhood is a season only.

Do what is right for your family, but please- lets not water-down Mothering until it looks like any other mainstream board out there.
That would be a crying shame.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Good for you Beanie Mama for standing up and saying what needs to be said.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *meco*
I agree with the OP. I think taking issue with her post is odd--she is just supporting the purpose of these boards.









Exactly

Quote:

For me, parenting is about the child...Self sacrifice, so seldom heard of in our culture, is a way of life for so many.








This is SO true. Great post meco.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

What constitutes early night weaning?


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Blessings to all and their wonderful love of children! It doesn't matter to me how you look at it, we are all trying our best in difficult circumstances, yes? It actually warms my heart, both the OP and those against it. There are always two sides, and I like to think I embrace both in most situations.

As a Buddhist mama, I have done some work with mothers stuggling to come to terms with their new life. It is overwhelming for some, particularly those who were not armed and ready for the change. Bless their beautiful trying hearts. When they say they are about to try CIO or ask what it is, I tell them and also mention alternatives and how it can affect mother and child. But, I would never tell them not to ask me that question, for where can they seek help if not from a listening ear? See it as a blessing and an opportunity to help guide someone to a better path than saying their thoughts are not wanted.

Just a suggestion, made with love.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Sorry for the double post, but I forgot to mention, I agree that this is not the forum for advocating CIO, as it is attachment focused. I am new and was wondering if people have actually advocated CIO, or if mothers were just asking about it or close to doing it?

Thanks for any clarification.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

To the OP:

YES YES YES









In fact, I just emailed something similar to a friend.

My life is SOOO incredibly easy right now w/3.5 y.o and almost 2 year old. I almost feel guilty. BUT, oh boy







: we went through some massive sleep deprivation stages along the way and I think it helped to bond us as a secure, loving, unit. Both kids now wink out at 9 and don't move for 11 hours.


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## MamaE (May 1, 2004)

ITA with the idea of self-sacrifice. It is essential in parenting, but it is not something that is common in our culture. I think most American parents expect that their babies and toddlers should conform, to varying degrees, to their schedule and to their needs. DH and I talk about this constantly.

As the adult, I feel it is up to me to set my needs aside because I CAN and my dd CAN'T! Simple as that.

I think the posts the OP is referring to are so common here because of cultural pressures. We are surrounded (many of us) by mainstream moms - often not even knowing another AP mama IRL (my case). It is very difficult when all the moms you know talk about CIO and how it worked for them and how they can put their child in a crib and he/she falls right asleep (after 4 months of CIO -







: ). It doesn't make me wish I had done it, but it does make me view my path as just a little bit harder. I know the path I have chosen is not an easy one. I struggle through those difficult moments though because I feel it is the best path for me and for dd. I come here for support. Perhaps the mamas who are asking about CIO need more support to strengthen their resolve NOT to do it.

I love my life as a mother. I would not change it for anything. But, it certainly takes a great deal of resolve and commitment - I renew myself here. I am so thankful to have found MDC where CIO is always to be put to rest, as gently as we can!


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

I think we are missing something if we simply say, "You are the adult. Sacrifice your sleep."

Everyone has his or her breaking point in regards to sleep deprivation. If mom can't function, how is that benefitting the child?

Before anyone gets angry, I am not advocating CIO. I don't practice it, I don't suggest it, I don't like it one bit. But I know from my own experience, and the experience of at least one good friend, sleep deprivation can become far more than an inconvenience. I don't think telling a mom who is experiencing profound sleep deprivation to "suck it up" is helpful. Not that anyone used those words, but to a mom who is strung out and half crazy, that is what it sounds like when she hears "sacrifice."

I think we need to focus on offering solutions, and keep in mind that people who aren't sleeping are (1) not at their most rational and (2) sensitive to criticism.

I *have BTDT* - I have hit the wall of sleep deprivation and it was ugly. Luckily I have an awesome husband, and we were able to come up with solutions that worked for our family, without CIO. (Which was not an option). I have a friend who is an AP mom and totally dedicated to her babe - and she has been struggling badly because of her sleep deprivation. She came to this forum for encouragement (partly at my suggestion), saw this post, and felt like she'd been slapped in the face. Is this post about her? No, of course not. But she was exhuasted and strung out and what she saw was: "Keep sacrificing yourself." She didn't have much left to give.

Lack of sleep can be an annoyance - or it can be severe and dangerous.


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Maybe no news is good news? Early on in ds' first year, my cousin (a LLL Leader and mother of 7 homebirthed children) would tell me "don't look at the clock", "sleep when the baby sleeps" etc... and I also remember her telling me about this one mom in her group who came to a meeting and said "I can't believe I'm saying this, but my dc *finally* slept through the night!" ... but she never told me how old that dc was!

Flash forward 2 years, my ds is 2.5 and still has never slept through the night, nor consistently more than 3 hours maximum (usually more like 2 hour stretches). We have mastered co-sleeping, nursing in many different positions in bed; he has mastered climbing all over me to latch on while I resist waking...

I haven't slept "through the night" since November, 2001, when I was waking to pee all night long while pregnant. I forget what it's like.

I guess I have no useful advice, but was reflecting on this recently: since the time my cousin gave me all that advice, I've stuck it out (I also have a very HN nurser) but thought I'd be done by the time he was 18 months max. Anyway, we're still here, sleep deprived as ever! I wonder when I will be the mom who walks into a LLL meeting and freaks out all the other new mamas when I say "guess what, I can't believe it, but ds is finally sleeping through the night, and he's 3 1/2!!!!

What I meant by "no news is good news": since I never heard the age of that other dc who *finally* slept through the night, I had no idea how long it might be before my ds sleeps through the night!

But... I got a better indication from surfing MDC for the past 10 months and reading many posts about night-nursing-mamas whose dc's were waking to nurse well past the age of 2.

I've been through all of the trials and tribulations that I read other posters going through on these threads. I feel "weathered" in the night-waking/family bed arena. But, all-in-all, I am so glad and grateful that we have stuck it out and are still nursing day and night (for so many reasons, I'm glad...). There have been many hurdles and bumps in the road, but it does get better, and then it might get a little worse, and then better still... the progress moves at a snail's pace... like taking "baby steps" towards better sleep. But it has been worth it.


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## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

Originally Posted by APMom98

That said, I think that the idea here is respecting our children's needs. Whether they are 3 months, 13 months, or 13 years, their needs are still needs. That is not to disrespect a mother's need for rest....honestly. I KNOW how it is to go on no sleep.....

But my needs are secondary to my kids' need for me. I need sleep, yes. But they need ME.....

ITA.

As another perspective, I am a surgery resident. For varying periods during medical school and for two years prior to having my DS and starting a research fellowship, I existed on Very Little Sleep while working an average of 100 hours a week. I can totally understand the mom who is at her breaking point, who is exhausted, etc.

But I see my child as being more important than any of my patients. And if anyone had ever suggested that I try to ignore my pager for a night, or even for an hour, in hopes that I can get more sleep or that I can "train" the nurses to take care of problems themselves without needing my help (a self-soothing parallel), they would be considered crazy!!! Whether it is a patient having a heart attack or getting septic or just needing something to help them sleep (usually a Benadryl as opposed to a nursing session, though







) it is my responsibility as their doctor to be there. Same as my responsibility as a parent.

(And yes, I know I get days off as a resident, but the pager never gets turned off, and the responsibilities usually extend to those days too.)


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Wow, that is a great way of looking at it! That makes perfect sense too. And I am sure you would have night after night sometimes of constant paging and responsibility that would be the same as young children. I remember wondering "Will this ever end?" and actually fearing I would have to be awake all night forever. It seems silly to me now, cos my girl sleeps better than the rest of us, but at the time, all I wanted to hear is that it would end next week, not next year. And that would also be similar to starting your career, as you would be thinking, "When on earth can I get some decent hours?".

I think this is a great perspective. Thank you.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Shannon, its funny but I have long thought that the sleep deprivation we expect from new doctors is horrible, and not the safest approach to patient care.

I admire all those who manage to go with so little sleep, but I think the system should be changed so that we don't require it of doctors.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Me again, hi.

I wanted to mention that before society changed into separate housing where you neighbours are not only not related to you, we hardly know them, we had it easier as mothers. Even now, Aboriginal Australians and other tribal communities still strong share the care of the children, and mom gets to sleep if she desperately needs it. I have this in my home to a degree, as my mother lives with us and loves taking dd from me anytime. I get to snooze along delightfully all afternoon if i want. Before she moved in, I was a wreck, an absolute mess.

A lot of pressure is placed on mothers now, but it is taken for granted as we are soooooo far removed from nature, tribal, that we say this is how nature intended - for mom's to "go without". Bull. Utter bull (excuse my non-Buddhist language there!). This kind of forum is the best we have for some mothers to feel a kinship and a tribal support. But who of us is going over to the sleep deprived mamas home and taking her baby so she can sleep?

I am just saying this for no reason really, or, maybe just to validate all the sleep deprived moms that it wasn't meant to be like this, and therefore you are showing immense strength and doing an amazing job.

And remember this time!
Remember so you can stretch out a loving helpful hand to your own child when they go through the same thing in the years to come.

Blessings.


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## Eman'smom (Mar 19, 2002)

I agree that parenthood is about self sacrifice I also agree that the children come first and we should never cio, however until you have reached that breaking point who is to judge.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

I have been reading this thread for a few days and not responding. It really made me sad the first, second, third, fourth and last time I read it









The thing is...

I'm tired. Tired as hell. From the time I was 8 til I was 21 I went to bed each night by 11 and woke up right at 7. I thrived being a "morning person."

As soon as I got pg, that went out the door. I have been TIRED (see my name, lol) for the past 6+ years. I went from being exhausted and constantly getting up to pee, to waking ever 60-90 minutes MAX with DD, to being pg with DS and doing the 2 nursings a night (we night weaned for 5 hours while I was pg) plus all the peeing to now... being thrilled through the exhaustion when DS will go three hours.

Have I mentioned I am tired?

Once my kids are over 18ish months, I find it harder and harder to fall back asleep while nursing them, so on a good night I am awake for 20-30 minutes every 2-3 hours. On a "bad" night it is much worse. I "slept" over 10 hours last night and am still tired, headachy and my body feels battered. It's not always this bad, but what if it *was*?

I am not yet to a point where I would let DS cry. But I can see it from here. Clearly. With DD, DH held her while she cried at 25 months so I could get 4 hours of consecutive sleep (mono, pg & sleep deprivation do NOT make a good combo). Just ONE four hour stint.

Just in case you haven't caught on... I *am* very tired.

Basically, what I am saying is YES, I know that nightwakings are not forever. YES, children are only small once. YES, I know my children will eventually sleep all night by themselves.

I have been lucky because I have a great DH and the motivation to stick it out. Maybe I'm missing something, but I think most of the people looking for nightweaning/sleeping advice usually have toddlers at the least.

So, where do I apply to get my application signed? I have to assume there is *some* point where it is okay to forcefully encourage your child to sleep through the night. Is this not true? Do you know how frustrating it is to hear that "nightwakings are not forever" when you are in your SIXTH year of them!?!? It's a good thing to keep in mind, but I would also ask people to keep in mind that everyone has different limits.

It is easy for me to look at someone sleep training their 12 month old and think, "Gosh, that's still a baby. I'm really tired, too..." But then it makes me think of my friend who is still night nursing her four year old. Who night nursed her DD on demand (and she was three) throughout her pg with her now four year old. Is she judging me? Thinking, "Gosh, why is she complaining? That's still a baby...?"

I hope not.

But, with threads like this I have to wonder


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Tired, I know you're tired.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
It is easy for me to look at someone sleep training their 12 month old and think, "Gosh, that's still a baby.

That's what we're talking about. People have been talking about nightweaning their 6 month olds and 10 month olds and advocating it. That's what I think some people are frustrated with in this thread. That's what *I* am frustrated with. I don't feel MDC is the place to advocate that.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

That's what we're talking about. People have been talking about nightweaning their 6 month olds and 10 month olds and advocating it. That's what I think some people are frustrated with in this thread. That's what *I* am frustrated with. I don't feel MDC is the place to advocate that.
While I agree that MDC needs to clearly speak against that practice, I just wanted to remind people that for every mother reading this considering night weaning their 6 month old (and probably ignoring the input), there is probably another with a two year old (who is taking the words oh so hard to heart as another poster already mentioned).

The problem is, IMO, there is no clear point that is "okay" versus "not okay."


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## mamapink (Jul 11, 2004)

Quote:

there is probably another with a two year old (who is taking the words oh so hard to heart
YES! that would be me too. Shes not 2 but she is 17.5 mos and we have just started the gradual process of nightweaning. Boy did this and other threads make me feel like a bad AP mother who is not "truly" a responsive loving sacrificing mother because we have started the nightweaning process.

I have been trying to watch her cues and respond accordingly. She has also been comforted by her father which I also read was a bad thing earlier on one of the threads here. I consider myself an AP parent but I think its wonderful that she and her father have a relationship where he can do the comforting as well.

Anyway, this thread and others like it made me doubt my parenting decisions and if I really knew what was best for my daughter. That hasn't happened for a long, long time.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*

It doesn't matter to me how you look at it, we are all trying our best in difficult circumstances, yes?

Bless their beautiful trying hearts. When they say they are about to try CIO or ask what it is, I tell them and also mention alternatives and how it can affect mother and child. But, I would never tell them not to ask me that question, for where can they seek help if not from a listening ear? See it as a blessing and an opportunity to help guide someone to a better path than saying their thoughts are not wanted.

Calm, what you said was beautiful. I thought I saw someone here say something about "teaching compassion with compassion" and I thought that was beautiful too (couldn't find it).








: I'm confused, because I haven't read anything here that I think _advocates_ cio or early night weaning, just desperately tired moms who need some sleep and can see how people arrive at those choices. (Maybe I missed something.) CIO is tempting when the lack of sleep affects your relationship with your children and your health.

I think this is the perfect place to ask questions about CIO and early nightweaning (ask about, not advocate), because here you'll find mamas who can give you numerous reasons not to do it and who can suggest some alternatives.

I want to people to stop using CIO also, but I can't help that happen unless I'm willing to answer the questions from people who are considering it. It doesn't do the children any good if I tell people I just don't want to hear it. It does help, or at least has the potential to help, when I listen with compassion and then talk to people about a better, kinder way. Just as I would teach my children to be compassionate by being compassionate toward them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *calm*

I wanted to mention that before society changed into separate housing where you neighbours are not only not related to you, we hardly know them, we had it easier as mothers. Even now, Aboriginal Australians and other tribal communities still strong share the care of the children, and mom gets to sleep if she desperately needs it.

A lot of pressure is placed on mothers now, but it is taken for granted as we are soooooo far removed from nature, tribal, that we say this is how nature intended - for mom's to "go without". Bull. Utter bull (excuse my non-Buddhist language there!). This kind of forum is the best we have for some mothers to feel a kinship and a tribal support. But who of us is going over to the sleep deprived mamas home and taking her baby so she can sleep?

I am just saying this for no reason really, or, maybe just to validate all the sleep deprived moms that it wasn't meant to be like this, and therefore you are showing immense strength and doing an amazing job.









It is not easy.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

"I think this is the perfect place to ask questions about CIO and early nightweaning (ask about, not advocate), because here you'll find mamas who can give you numerous reasons not to do it and who can suggest some alternatives."
(Can't quote properly, sorry)

Exactly!

Tired, I was wondering, have you thought of changing your user name? Seeing yourself titled as "tired" everytime you log in is like an affirmation, it labels you and you may fulfill that within yourself. My user name Calm is more for me than anything, as each time I see it, I feel, hey, I'm calm, I'm caaaaaaalm. You could become "Was tired, now energised" and we would know who you are!









Tired, I would come to your home and take your children and play pasting with them and read lovely stories while you slept a few hours away. I am even willing to stay the night. I will be in the States in January, so PM me and we can work on something. It is amazing how one good sleep can give you just one day to feel like a woman again - and we ALL deserve that. Something to look forward to!

With love.


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## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen*
Shannon, its funny but I have long thought that the sleep deprivation we expect from new doctors is horrible, and not the safest approach to patient care.

I admire all those who manage to go with so little sleep, but I think the system should be changed so that we don't require it of doctors.


Dechen, it's actually MUCH better now, with the 80-hour workweek restrictions, plus limits on how long you can be in the hospital at a stretch.

But again, to correlate, we do that by having appropriate cross-coverage from other docs, not by having patients fend for themselves. It would be nice if we had the system Calm described.

And Tiredx2, many hugs to you. I can empathize -- I went right from two years of residency to 15 months of DS, and I'm also the type to fully wake up when I nurse. Find sleep where you can, and wishing you the peaceful end of nightwaking soon.


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## Roon (May 23, 2004)

I can't tell you the number of times I've come here looking for encouragement since having my DS 6.5 months ago only to find thread after thread of complete negativity and despair. Yes, _I KNOW_ co-sleeping isn't always easy. Yes, _I KNOW_ all about nights of non-stop nursing and restless kicking. And YES, I _DEFINITELY_ KNOW that this is a forum where moms (and dads) having problems come to vent and get support, so while I'd hate to browbeat any poster for ranting and saying how they "have" to let their DC CIO, I still _have_ to applaud Beanie Mama for reminding us that this is a forum for SUPPORT of co-sleepers! Good onya, Beanie, and thanks!!









One little different POV, though -

Quote:

Take it one night/day at a time- don't think about the future when your struggling. Just worry about the present,
I understand what you're getting at, but when we're having a particularly rough night, it really helps me to think about the future - i.e., to remind myself that *now* is a very tiny time and that *one day soon* DS will be sleeping through the night and will even be out of my bed before I know it. *sigh* Sort of like the "one day at a time" advice you gave - just "one night at a time".

Anyway... *blah, blah, blah*... thanks.


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## powchow (Sep 20, 2004)

I love hearing that it will end, but I want to hear, how it ends? suddenly? slowly? baby steps? I would love to hear some stories.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Hi Powchow. My daughter didn't sleep through until about 10 months. I woke up one morning and she was still asleep! I think I had champagne for breakfast that morning! Every now and then for a few more months she would wake, but I felt confident that she wasn't hungry, so a cuddle or a pat had her back to sleep. Now, I can't wake her, I simply can't. She is a rock. Sleeps better than me. I often have to wake her in the mornings, after naptime etc. So mine was suddenly.

Although, with hindsight, I think it was creeping up, as she used to wake frequently through the night, and I didn't notice at the time that her wakings became structured at certain times a few times a night. Then it was one wake a night for a couple of months. It felt sudden though!


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## canadiangranola (Oct 1, 2004)

I am certainly NOT an advocate of CIO, when my sister does it with her kids I refuse to talk to her on the phone when I can hear them crying in the background b/c i find it so upsetting. I love the fact that there is a place to come and be encouraged and meet other mamas who are nursing and co sleeping, and otherwise lovign their babies 24 hours a day.

That being said, in my brief experience on the board, what i see here are some stressed out, exhausted, frustrated (and maybe even scared of what they might do if they don't get soem sleep) mamas. I have a 15 month old who nurses to sleep, sleeps fitfully beside me and wakes 4-5 times a night to nurse. I too get no sleep some nights, as i am a chronic insomniac who doesn't fall asleep quickly or easily. I love my child with all my heart, and every day give him my undivided attention as much as i possibly can. He does not accept comfort from his father easily. I have had nights when I had to hand him to his father (thank God I have a loving, gentle, great parent of a dh) because if i didn't get 30 minutes of uninterrupted sleep I was close to the brink of doing something awful. In those times, i would have loved to come here and vent, cry for help, and otherwise get support that the way we were chossing to parent our child was not insane (if only i'd known about the boards)....
but what if i had come, in that statem crying for help and encouragement, and received rebuke from another mama who thought i wasn't sacrificing enough?

Dear mamas, ket us be gentle with each other, we are strong, loving, people who constantly care for our children to the best of our abilities. We are not perfect...we are broken and isolated and often lonely and sometimes afraid that we are not doing right by our children....let us come here and find, within the arms of other ap parents, the compasison and grace to be weak and have it be okay, to admit our frustrations, and also to lift one another up and so empower oen another to continue loving our babies and ourselves.

peace,
anno


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

Ooh, meta-discussion.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*
A lot of pressure is placed on mothers now, but it is taken for granted as we are soooooo far removed from nature, tribal, that we say this is how nature intended - for mom's to "go without". Bull. Utter bull (excuse my non-Buddhist language there!).









I love you, vulgar Buddhist woman!!! Could you please plaster this statement somewhere public?

To me, CIO and sacrifice are two sides of the same coin. We are all human, even those of us who are mothers. If we perceive our babies' needs as in adversarial relation to our own, there is only so long we can (physically and emotionally) continue to put theirs first and shove ours aside. The nature of the relationship between a mother and her baby is such that they share needs. Nothing can hurt one without hurting the other. Neither should just have to suck it up, nor will this work.

Quote:

But who of us is going over to the sleep deprived mamas home and taking her baby so she can sleep?
I realize that this was a rhetorical question, but it got me thinking: Could we make something like this possible through the Finding Your Tribe boards? Maybe someone could add a sticky with a list of phone numbers of moms who are willing to facilitate breaks. Or at least suggesting the practice of posting at stressful times (e.g. sleep deprivation, little help with housework with a new baby, etc.) so that others who live nearby can offer to help.

Hi, I'm Erin, staying home with one non-high-need 3-year-old and a work-at-home dh, and my phone number is 718-994-8491. C'mon, call me, I'm bored.


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## dolfinluvr (Sep 8, 2004)

Well....I think that about answers my question that I was about to post til I read this one!







I have an 8.5mo. old that drinks formula (blah) and still gets up at _least_ once a night to drink usually another 6oz. or so. I was wondering if this was "normal" and how other formula fed mommies helped wean their kids into a full nights rest.







Mind you this is a VAST improvement from the waking every 3hrs. to eat and the every other hour between that where she would just cry...on top of my working FT with a DH that works eves.

But reading these posts sure made me realize that it can always be worse and I empathize and commend the mamas here that are doing what needs to be done to be sensitive to their babies needs while still trying to stay sane themselves.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Hey Erin! Thanks for the worship, now if I can just get a big round belly, an orange robe and some philosophy....

LOL!

"Nothing can hurt one without hurting the other. Neither should just have to suck it up, nor will this work."

Good statements! Motherhood is very much a dynamic, and I believe this is the best way I have seen that put across.

Just a cautionary note, perhaps you might consider removing your ph number, there are some freaks around - lurk lurk lurk - and I would hate for such a wonderful sounding woman to get hassels. (know what I mean?) The finding your tribe idea is great, we could post our needs, and perhaps our location (state, county?) and see if there is someone nearby? As mentioned, I won't be in the states until January, but I will be in a few different states until I reach my final dest, Florida (Ft Laud). I could easily slip in a few home visits and squish a few new babies and such. Actually sounds like a cool idea. (oh, "squishing" is the term used in our house to hug really tightly, just realised how that sounds!)

Gotta go and squish my daughter now.....


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## CartersMomma (Jan 4, 2002)

I just wanted to add my two cents.....

I came here to MDC sort of naive....knowing I that AP felt right to me...not really understanding what MDC was about, not having ever posted on a chat board before.....anyway, one of my first posts ever was "anyone here tried CIO with any success" or something like that.....I did get "rebuked" a bit , but also got a lot of support, ideas and reasons why I shouldn't do it, which helped keep me from doing such a horrid thing to my ds. I've also had similar situations in the Gentle Discipline forum....I went there a spanker and now am committed to not hitting.

I hear the OP and agree.....but also, remember that people are coming here for help and are often one step away from doing the wrong thing. Just think, by HELPING and offering support, you can make a difference.

Consequently, I am more of a lurker than a poster, as I am sensitive to being "flamed" ......but I really have learned SO much from these boards....and whenever I'm finding myself in a pit re. lack of sleep, I come here and get reminded that I'm not alone, that mamas all over have thrashing, nursing, waking kids too! And that as much as I'd like to sleep all night, I know I can go on and do whats best for my kids. This place should be about support, not a "club" where you can only post if you do XYZ just the right way in the right order.


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## Jules411 (Nov 11, 2003)

This has been a very interesting thread to read. I think the suggestions at the beginning of the thread are excellent and supportive for parents needing some ideas (or gentle reminders) and encouragement (like me, as I struggle with night duty alone with my high need, non-sleeping 14 m/o dd while my dh is out of town the 3rd week in a row).

I also think people do come here to vent and look for support and concrete ideas to help with trying situations. It is extremely hard to have an unending supply of emotional energy to parent when your needs do not get met, at least some of the time. ALL mamas know about self sacrifice. It is part of being a parent.

As many posters said, asking for help and getting answers here does not mean anti-AP practices are being advocated. People should not worry about getting "flamed" for asking a question or seeking help. I have received nothing but help and encouragement from my own postings in different forums, in addition to reading other posts. It is helpful to read that you are in a community of people going through the same struggles and feeling the same way you do. If people feel they can not come here for help, all that will be here is people congratulating themselves for being perfect AP parents. Some people coming here have just started their journey out of "mainstream" parenting to more child-centered. I would not think MDC wants them chased away for asking questions about practices that are likely considered the "norm" by most people in their environment. Isn't one of the functions here to educate and support (without flames)?


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

When someone asks a question I try to be helpful and educate. I don't think it's the questions bothering people so much. It's the _advice_ that's being given. It becomes a problem when things are advocated that are not in line with Mothering values, kwim?


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## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaAllNatural*
When someone asks a question I try to be helpful and educate. I don't think it's the questions bothering people so much. It's the _advice_ that's being given. It becomes a problem when things are advocated that are not in line with Mothering values, kwim?

I agree. I don't think flames are ever justifiable. Advice, education, and gentle correction is justifiable, particularly when it is for the answers being offered as opposed to the original (probably innocent) question.


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