# CIO for compliance same as CIO for sleeping? Need opinions.



## Ophelia (Feb 16, 2005)

I normally think of CIO as a method for trying to get a baby or child to go to sleep on their own. Is CIO to try and get a child compliant the exact same thing? What would be the long-term consquences of this? Any studies that you know of (I do have some sleeping ones bookmarked such as the Harvard study)?

Is letting a toddler CIO for up to an hour (in order to gain compliance) considered punishment? Is there some concrete info (other than anecdotal, sorry) that it has long term negative effects? What if the toddler is high-spirited, does that change anything (for example, if nothing else works).

I'm sorry, I felt I needed to put a high priority on this. I don't do that unless it's pretty critical. Thanks!


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

THE IS DEFINITELY considered punishment and NOT gentle discipline IMO. some may think "ignoring the tantrum" is gentle but in my eyes no. while you may not engage them the entire time they are tantrumming, you can validate their feelings and offer support when they are ready.

I recommend you get a copy of "The Explosive Child" which would explain the concrete info you are looking for as well as why ignoring the tantrum in that case would not work. it also explains why nothing you tried in the past has worked, and what you can do that WILL work.

I may have to come back to this because I was just about to set off to do an activity with DD, but I'll give a brief suggestion of what to do when its "not working" in the moment while still respecting your child and showing you care.

Lets just say skip ahead to worst case scenario, nothing else worked and your child is now tantrumming over no cake before dinner.

get down to childs level, and speak whenever there is a break in crying and they are able to hear you. sometimes moving with them to another room to calm down will help - stay with them.
Validate and Empathize: (You really really wanted to have cake before dinner! You are so mad that I said no.)
give them some time of support, hold them while they cry. if they try to hurt yu step away but don't leave them, just move out of the way (I am here when you need me, but I can't let you hurt me)

After giving it some time and they havent calmed down leave, but with empathy
(I am sorry to see you so upset. I have to go do xyz now, but I will be knowing how upset you are. If you need me come get me. I will come back and try to help again when I finish xyz)

follow through, repeat. It's okay if you don't want to sit next to a child who is tantrumming for an hour (though they probably wont do that if you are empathizing and trying to help them calm down)

This works with my explosive special needs child. Very rarely do I even get to the point of needed to walk away and come back. Most of the time, we can avoid the explosion altogether.

At the onset of the explosion the first thing I say is "calm down, or mommy help?" DS1 will say calm down or help to let me know. If he calms down great. then I empathize and we move on. If he asks for help, then I move with him to his room and sit with him. usually MOMENTS later he is ready to move on. if the explosion isnt fully settles and reruptures we repeat this process a few times. I always empathize, then attempt to move on. usually he moves on right away at this point. If he says calm down, but doesnt, I say "you tried to calm down, but it turns out you do need my help" and repeat above process for "helping" to calm down.

It is NOT for attention. I always trusted this - but the book I recommended explains in better detail!!!

hope that helps and I will probably be back to this thread many times in trying to help you, as this is something we struggled with and overcame. We, out of desperation, tried ignoring the tantrums by recommendation of a behavioral therapist, but it didnt feel right, for obvious reasons. Now, I am equipped to handling these explosions, and preventing them - even before reading the explosive child, a lot of what I learned in how to talk so kids will listen helped... but I'm reading the explosive child right now and it gives a lot deeper insight and a few more tips... anyway, sorry for rambling... if you want I will try to find some online articles that explain why NOT to ignore a tantrum...

here is one that is a little helpful from mothering in the meantime:
http://www.mothering.com/articles/gr.../tantrums.html


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## mamarootoo (Sep 16, 2008)

if making a child cry for up to an hour to force them to do what you want isn't punishment i don't know what is.

letting a child cry like that has the same effects (physiologically speaking) as CIO for sleep.


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## mamarootoo (Sep 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
some may think "ignoring the tantrum" is gentle but in my eyes no.

i totally agree with you, but it doesn't sound like she's just ignoring a tantrum. it sounds like she's looking for a way to "gain compliance," which to me, is a completely different thing.

Ophelia, please correct me if i'm wrong about this!


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I guess I don't understand how this looks? You can't really *make* a child cry - something must have happened to start the crying. A tantrum? Children have tantrums. Leaving a child to tantrum alone could hurt the child and could be somewhat equivalent to CIO. But if a child tantrums and you're there empathizing and being there for your child, that isn't CIO. IMO the goal when there is a tantrum or crying isn't to stop the crying at any cost. It's to empathize, be with the child, and help the child process and learn to deal with those kinds of emotions, which can be frightening.

Anyway, I'd have to know the specific situation to be able to respond well.


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## carfreemama (Jun 13, 2007)

I know you're looking for concrete studies and such, but I don't have those.

I do know that I will ALWAYS regret the months I spent trying to "gain compliance" with dd by letting her CIO. I hadn't thought about it this way before, but that's what I did. I went through a period where I had Dr. Phil running through my head, admonishing me that if I got into a power struggle with my children, I'd better win it. So I would put dd in our bedroom with a baby gate and tell her she could come out when she was ready to stop crying and "listen." She would come to the gate and say "can I come out now?," obviously trying to gain control.

I cannot believe I did this to her. One day, something snapped and I asked myself what I was doing. I said a few things to Dr. Phil in my head and my new motto became, "as soon as you find yourself in a power struggle with your children, get out of it!" I swept dd up in my arms, apologized for being so mean and finally became a member of MDC.

I would never, ever do this to a child again.


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## kcparker (Apr 6, 2008)

I don't think letting a small child cry with no comforting or empathy for an hour for any reason is good for them.

If your babe is having long tantrums for no obvious reason, have you checked all the usual suspects?
- food additives (red dye being a common problem)
- food sensitivities/allergies
- tiredness and/or poor sleeping patterns at night (sleep apnea/snoring/long periods of night wakefulness)
- limiting/banning TV and computer screen time
- has child been getting adequate chance to exercise (it's hard in cold climates at the end of winter)
- is child super-low on energy or hasn't eaten in awhile and is having a meltdown because of that
- sudden change in routine or life circumstances

If your child is being defiant, can you think about what might be causing it and a creative way to get you both through these incidents? How important is the compliance? Don't run into the busy street is pretty critical that you get instant compliance, but put on your shoes so we can leave the house, not so much.

Can MDCers offer up some suggestions about creative, gentle ways to help make sure that you and your child are getting your respective needs met?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carfreemama* 
I know you're looking for concrete studies and such, but I don't have those.

I do know that I will ALWAYS regret the months I spent trying to "gain compliance" with dd by letting her CIO. I hadn't thought about it this way before, but that's what I did. I went through a period where I had Dr. Phil running through my head, admonishing me that if I got into a power struggle with my children, I'd better win it. So I would put dd in our bedroom with a baby gate and tell her she could come out when she was ready to stop crying and "listen." She would come to the gate and say "can I come out now?," obviously trying to gain control.

I cannot believe I did this to her. One day, something snapped and I asked myself what I was doing. I said a few things to Dr. Phil in my head and my new motto became, "as soon as you find yourself in a power struggle with your children, get out of it!" I swept dd up in my arms, apologized for being so mean and finally became a member of MDC.

I would never, ever do this to a child again.

Oooooh is THAT what it is? I couldn't even imagine what this looked like. I guess I wouldn't have thought to call that CIO - more like a time out where the child is crying the whole time. And a power struggle and a few other things. I would google "time out" before "CIO" because CIO stuff will be about babies. It's beyond time out, though, isn't it? I see why you're having trouble finding info specific to that, although I bet that isn't an unusual situation.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Here's an article that might be useful.

The Case Against Time Out


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

great article mamazee!

re: time out though, if one WERE to use it, they suggest 1 minute per year of age - so unless they are 60 an hour is beyind excessive

though I get this isnt about time out/tantrum its about compliance. I agree with mamazee though, its still a "tantrum" - they are having a tantrum over not wanting to comply. that does not mean its okay to ignore those feelings or the tantrum.

as far as trying to gain compliance, getting into a power struggle is not the way to do it ESPECIALLY if you have a spirited/explosive child. I've read a few books that say once your child has engaged you in a power struggle you have lost. Even if you "win" the power struggle the fact that they could "control" you enough to engage you in a power struggle they have "won" in that sense. I don't "control" my children and I dont let my children "control" me. There is no mutual respect in a power struggle, that AP and GD are all about mutual respect in my opinion. Sometimes I have to ask myself if its a reasonable request/limit. Sometimes I "let it go" sometimes all I can do is empathize. At no point would I ignore my child's feelings, even if their feelings are caused by my requests or denials.

Is this about getting your child to do xyz, and they are having a tantrum in protest and you are ignoring it and not giving in until they go xyz?

I agree, a more specific scenario will better our ability to help you. But no, I don't see ignoring a tantrum (read: child's feelings that they cant/dont know how/arent able to manage yet) as ever being okay.

it is either way ignoring the tantrum - trying to gain compliance causes tantrum which should not be ignored (and perhaps the OP isn't ignoring it, I'm not entirely clear, but that was my impression)


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think there are much better ways to get compliance than making a child cry, especially if this is a daily thing. Crying for over an hour is a pretty extreme meltdown that is almost certainly caused by many things other than just not wanting to do something. I don't change what I am doing just because my daughter has a fit, but if she is crying I do try to give her comfort and the few times she has cried for a prolonged period of time I have looked for the other causes and worked to fix the causes. I don't think a child having an extreme meltdown should be left alone. Even if you just sit there quietly because they don't want to be touched, it still lets them know you are there and you love them.
I do think that you should leave the room if you are going to lose control though. I find that tantrums trigger some very negative reactions from me and I do have to leave sometimes so I don't have a tantrum and say mean things while my dd is out of control.


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## Ophelia (Feb 16, 2005)

Thanks! I'm just so extremely upset right now.

SGMommy, thanks for the book recommendation! I am reading Raising your High Spirited Child but only 1/2 way through. Whenever I read books they make total sense but then it's very diffucult for me to put into actions.

kcparker: I have definitely thought about those. His diet is generally pretty good but H (he is not DH right now) insists on feeding him HFCS fake dyed crap for treats (DS constantly asks for treats now. I give him treats too but not as often and not that type unless he got it special at a party). He just got over a 2+ week nasty cold/ear infection/teething with mostly low fevers and hardly ate anything. We are already off gluten and waiting for allergy test results. Sleep may or may not be an issue. We bedshare. He watched too much TV when sick. Yes it's cold here and we haven't got out much especially when sick. I dont' know if he has any metal toxin buildup.

mamazee: thanks, i love that article and re-read it. Makes total sense to me.

"they are having a tantrum over not wanting to comply" *yes that is it EXACTLY.*

Here's the deal:

-DS has become increasingly defiant over the last couple weeks or so. I mean extremely defiant. Gets upset about things at the drop of a hat (even more so than usual). I attributed some of it to being sick, as he IS acting better generally now that he feels better. he is also being more defiant at daycare and with my Mom who also watches him.

-I just learned last night that H made DS CIO in his room alone for up to an hour while I was gone in order to gain compliance (or get him to stop tantruming about something). I think this happened a few times. H says it worked and he doesn't have a problem with DS anymore (which I do not believe as he had a problem just the other night)

-He says I am too easy on DS and he will turn into a spoiled brat

-We have been having a really hard time lately getting DS to brush teeth. The bug game doesn't work anymore and have tried other things. Last night H told me to put DS in his room. I didn't want to do it but did. All DS did was get up and follow me around crying. So I force brushed his teeth again which I hate doing and said I wasn't going to do anymore after really upsetting DS one time before.

-because I wasn't following H's 'orders' to put DS in his room the way H does it, he then threatened me to try and gain compliance from me.

-DS was actually doing very well this morning until H came downstairs (I was upstairs at the time). Apparently DS wanted a treat so he started meltdown. H yelled and him and told him to stop being a brat









-H threatened me again this morning, claiming that when I go to my exercise class tonight he will let DS cry for an hour to get him to brush his teeth (no, I'm not going).

From the article: "The practice of separating a child in time-out from parents can in itself become the cause of future misbehavior, because being alone and in time-out increases the frustrations felt by a child who is already frustrated."

I wonder if H's "CIO timeout compliance" is backfiring on him and making things worse even though he claims that DS being a 'brat' is my fault!


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

when you say his diet is good, do you mean he eats healthy, or that you have ruled as all possibility of food intolerance? gluten and casein cause my son's behavior to be much more explosive. Food allergies are not always some rash that pops up or the child getting sick. it can present in behavior.

to your points:

-DS has become increasingly defiant over the last couple weeks or so. I mean extremely defiant. Gets upset about things at the drop of a hat (even more so than usual). I attributed some of it to being sick, as he IS acting better generally now that he feels better. he is also being more defiant at daycare and with my Mom who also watches him.

::::: yes being sick will add to it. if its a sudden increase then there may be a sudden trigger - probably your H's power struggle method.

-I just learned last night that H made DS CIO in his room alone for up to an hour while I was gone in order to gain compliance (or get him to stop tantruming about something). I think this happened a few times. H says it worked and he doesn't have a problem with DS anymore (which I do not believe as he had a problem just the other night)

::::: some things can appear to work in the short term, but not work in the long term. also, you do not want to take on other, bigger problems, in exchange. Your DH may have felt that fixed "one" behavior, and the problem you saw the other night was the "new" behavior due to "fixing" the other one. Or, your DH might just be wrong. And if he is right, it's nothing for him to brag about. His child isn't listening to him out of respect or because its the right thing to do. he is listening out of fear of being locked in his room. being isolated. abandoned. feeling that his fathers love is conditional on "following orders"

-He says I am too easy on DS and he will turn into a spoiled brat

::::it sounds like he doesn't like your approach, but that before your H got involved your son wasnt a spoiled brat. your H is afraid he will _turn into a spoiled brat_ which says to me, whatever you were doing previously did not have the affect of ALREADY turning him into a spoiled brat. Sometimes peopel see GD as permissive. they feel they need to have ultimate "control", usually this causes many power struggles, problems in the parent child relationship, and problems with the childs behavior. he will act up in other people's care as well, because now he is trying to figure out how you and DH and grandma and the school all differ. who ELSE will abandon him, he wonders. If he is "bad" enough, will his mom abandon him too? what about the lady at preaschool?

-We have been having a really hard time lately getting DS to brush teeth. The bug game doesn't work anymore and have tried other things. Last night H told me to put DS in his room. I didn't want to do it but did. All DS did was get up and follow me around crying. So I force brushed his teeth again which I hate doing and said I wasn't going to do anymore after really upsetting DS one time before.

:::: wow! my son hates his teeth brushed too... he has sensory issues and he HATES the way it feels. I would NEVER punish him for not complying. This does not have to be a power struggle I promise you. He may never like getting his teeth brushed, it may be hard to do it a gentle way, you may at times feel you have to force him/hold him down until you can find a gentle way - but you do not need to PUNISH him for not complying. Your H needs a reality check, fast. I am sure you are feeling heartbroken for your son over this!

-because I wasn't following H's 'orders' to put DS in his room the way H does it, he then threatened me to try and gain compliance from me.

:::threatened you how? Sounds like H is on a power trip, and is needing some relationship skills with you as well as his son.

-DS was actually doing very well this morning until H came downstairs (I was upstairs at the time). Apparently DS wanted a treat so he started meltdown. H yelled and him and told him to stop being a brat
:::name calling is not okay. you need to treat children as you would like to see them become. if you call him a brat he will take on that role. I recommend you read how to talk so kids will listen... or if you want I will get more into the whole "role" thing in my next reply, as this one is already pretty legnthly. I can explain why calling a child a brat will make them act bratty. he could have handled the tantrum over the treat in many other ways that would have been much more effective. in fact handling the request for the treat differently may have prevented the meltdown altogether. (empathize, give in fantasy, etc)

-H threatened me again this morning, claiming that when I go to my exercise class tonight he will let DS cry for an hour to get him to brush his teeth (no, I'm not going).
WOW is this sudden with your h? I wonder what brought all this on?! I am so sorry and I am so sad for your son right now too because I think how my son would react to something like that. Is it possible your son has sensory issues?


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## Ophelia (Feb 16, 2005)

Quote:

when you say his diet is good, do you mean he eats healthy, or that you have ruled as all possibility of food intolerance? gluten and casein cause my son's behavior to be much more explosive. Food allergies are not always some rash that pops up or the child getting sick. it can present in behavior.
healthy as in mostly organic, I try to prepare all our main meals from scratch. I buy most of our (his and mine) foods at the natural foods store. He still nurses frequently.

Quote:

His child isn't listening to him out of respect or because its the right thing to do. he is listening out of fear of being locked in his room. being isolated. abandoned. feeling that his fathers love is conditional on "following orders"
I completely agree.

Quote:

He may never like getting his teeth brushed, it may be hard to do it a gentle way, you may at times feel you have to force him/hold him down until you can find a gentle way - but you do not need to PUNISH him for not complying. Your H needs a reality check, fast. I am sure you are feeling heartbroken for your son over this!
I slacked on the brushing while he was sick and trying to be regular about it again. Yes, I feel absolutely awful and scared.

Quote:

:::threatened you how? Sounds like H is on a power trip, and is needing some relationship skills with you as well as his son.
DS and I just had some allergy testing done. We agreed that we would wait until final results are back before we try adding any wheat/gluten to diet (either mine or DS's). After I didn't 'comply' with H last night, he threatened to start feeding DS all the wheat he wants starting today. he has also threatened this before. BTW we have been going to counseling for 2 years and just when it seems to be getting better, it goes back again.

Quote:

WOW is this sudden with your h? I wonder what brought all this on?! I am so sorry and I am so sad for your son right now too because I think how my son would react to something like that. Is it possible your son has sensory issues?
not really. I've found with H it boils down to: harrass, threaten to gain compliance, blame. I didn't notice it so much before DS was born. But now that we have him there is more to disagree on. Sensory issues: I know he is high-spirited and increased sensitivity comes along with that. I know what you mean about sensory issues. I'm not sure if DS has them, he doesn't seem to. DS has a cousin with high-functioning autism and sensory issues. So I am very careful about paying attention to that sort of thing. I have not had him tested for heavy metal toxins but have been curious about it. I have dental fillings, got the flu shot while pg (supposedly the low mercury one but still just as bad) and DS had most vaccines (forced by H).


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I am so sorry how hard it must be to be parenting opposite your spouse instead of with your spouse. I have to say I can relate with that at times, but ultimately my husband starts to follow my lead and my husband knows I have no tolerance for treating a child badly. I will tell him when he does something that is not okay with me. I will tell him "you can't do that" ... im sure you do too, but my husband is responding to what im saying and yours is not, although sounds like we face some of the same struggles.

What are your feelings on the teeth brushing issue? why do you think your son doesn't like his teeth brushed? (has anyone asked him?)

That is terrible your husband would feed something to your son that he is possibly allergic to







those threats and harassment is not helping anyone! You may need to apply some of these steps to your husband.

"You are worried if we are gentle, that means we are being permissive, and that our son will act like a brat"
"You want us to work together. So do I. We need to find a solution we both feel comfortable with and confident about."

when he threatens say
"You seem frustrated I don't want to do it your way. We need to find a solution we both feel comfortable with. I need you to work with me in problem solving, not work against me with threats"

this approach has helped me with my husband, though my husband tends to gaslight so sometimes we hit a brick wall. it seems though, the next day he has taken in what I said previously and applying it. I also see him seeng what I do working, and then he starts using those methods as well.

sometimes I wish I could just transfer my knowledge to my husbands brain, since he isnt willing to put the energy into learning about parenting that I do.


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## tropicaldutchtulip (Jul 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
re: time out though, if one WERE to use it, they suggest 1 minute per year of age - so unless they are 60 an hour is beyind excessive


I know this is off topic! But can I still use this with my "45" year old husband??!! heehee!

Anyway, we don't do any forms of CIO whether for sleep or non-sleep. I attend to their needs especially if they are upset for what ever the reason may be. No matter how "minor" it may be to anyone else! I have never tried "time out" and have no desire too, but I have done a couple of "time in's" with the girls where I'm holding them and talking with them explaing what happened, what we should do and helping them with their feelings. Then we sit for a couple more minutes before I let them down off my lap and they get their toy or bee-bee (binky) back. That works better than trying to keep repeating what it is I'm wanting them to do! I have tried that too, and it did not work very well! I also use a lot of compromise with the girls. I still get what needs to be done, but it may be done in "their" way and not mine! For example, I try to get the girls to come out of the hall way from playing so we can get clothes changed. "I" am expecting them to walk out, well they decide to play "puppie" (one of their favorite movies right now is 101 Dalmatians!) and crawl out. It gets them out of the hall way and we get dressed peacefully! And have some fun at the same time. Also crawling even still at 33 months is very good for their arm and upper body strength too! So I have to re-wire my brain to their level and remember they are toddlers!

HTH'ed some....


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## tropicaldutchtulip (Jul 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
I am so sorry how hard it must be to be parenting opposite your spouse instead of with your spouse. I have to say I can relate with that at times, but ultimately my husband starts to follow my lead and my husband knows I have no tolerance for treating a child badly. I will tell him when he does something that is not okay with me. I will tell him "you can't do that" ... im sure you do too, but my husband is responding to what im saying and yours is not, although sounds like we face some of the same struggles.

sometimes I wish I could just transfer my knowledge to my husbands brain, since he isnt willing to put the energy into learning about parenting that I do.

I hear ya! My DH admits that it works, but doesn't take the time to do it/try it and doesn't take the time to "learn"!!!!! Even when I try to tell or share with him idea's. I know he doesn't have time to sit down and do all the research I have done over the past 33 months! So I end up picking up the pieces from his mess that he has created with the girls. Thus making it so much harder for me and taking more time than it should have to begin with to gain control back of the situation. I won't even go there with our Au Pair! She is in her own little world, and thankfully is leaving in a couple of weeks! And my parents will be here in a couple of days, so that will pretty much relieve her!


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

He may be under a lot of stress right now because he sees you and your dh having so many arguments where the focus is on his misbehavior. From the way you describe your dh trying to force compliance from you it sounds like this isn't a healthy situation for any of you. When kids witness things like this it can put them over the limit for what they can handle and even little things like teeth brushing or asking the child to put shoes on to go out for ice cream can trigger a meltdown. Children also go through testing times where they push boundaries and I find that when my dd does this, she benefits from having me calmly and matter of factly reinforce the boundary without overreacting and becoming vindictive. Talk to your dh about taking a break so he can deal with your son's boundary testing in a calm and reasonable manner. Just from what you say about him planning to push his son into a tantrum over teeth brushing when you are gone, it sounds like he is getting a little spiteful and vindictive. If he is a reasonable person try reasoning with him while you two are alone in the house so your son doesn't hear any argument that may include words about how bad he is being from your dh.


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## Ophelia (Feb 16, 2005)

Quote:

What are your feelings on the teeth brushing issue? why do you think your son doesn't like his teeth brushed? (has anyone asked him?)
I can certainly ask him, not sure if I'd get a straight answer (sometimes he can tell me exactly and other times not). I try to make it fun for him. I feel if he doesn't brush his teeth reguarly that he will get cavities and I really don't want that to happen. I also can't just let him brush every time as he doesn't get all teeth good enough. Just sorta shoves the brush around. I will ask him what we can do to help him brush but I'm not sure if he will understand that.

Quote:

Just from what you say about him planning to push his son into a tantrum over teeth brushing when you are gone, it sounds like he is getting a little spiteful and vindictive.
Yes. I am actually scared to go home tonight because I know he will insist that I go to the class. I will insist on staying home (or taking DS to get out of the house), then he will blow up again and probably threaten more.

He sent me an email this morning with a little paragraph that explained basically a "time-in". Said he agreed with all of it except the parent staying by the child. He thinks the child should be isolated or ignored until behavior is acceptable


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I hope you can get through to him!

as for the teeth brushing, my son is 1 month younger then yours, with severe speech delay, so in our case he can't tell me why he doesnt like it, but thats okay since I know its sensory thats not an answer I need. I hope your son can answer you. you can try to follow what he says and offer what you think it is, and see if he can agree with you. meaning, he might not be able to tell you exactly, but what he says may give you an idea/ideas that you can repeat back to him to gain clarification/confirmation.

all that aside here is what we did

"do you want to brush your teeth and have mommy finish, or mommy start and you finish?"
let him watch in the mirror
try counting or a song so he knows there is an end in sight, how far away it is, and has something else to focus on.
if you arent already try using just water or try using a kids toothpaste
does he know jhow to use mouthwash? ask if he would prefer to use mouthwash every other time instead. or perhaps every time after he brushes with just water.

there are a few ideas. we had to try a lot of things. the times I had to do it against his will were the worst and we avoided that as much as possible. but I would tell him "I know you really hate this, and I'm sorry, but we need to do this to keep your teeth healthy"

also perhaps you can move toothbrushing time so its preceeding a more favorable part of his evening. "As soon as we finish this we can go play with your trucks!" I would avoid doing this in bribe format though, such as "if you brush your teeth you can play with your trucks" and I would attach it to something he ALREADY gets to do at night, just something favorable - I know for me as an adult sometimes its easier to get through hard moments when you have something to look forward to in the near future. all this would involve on your part is reordering his nighttime routine and/or pointing out that something he enjoys happens next.

and of course, as always, empathize!

as for your DH, I hope you are able to get through to him and teach him why punishment/isolation/ignoring doesn't work. part of getting this through to him would be not to encourage it by proving it does work when he tries to do it to you!

I would also let him know that in your home, all emotions are acceptable. You agree that behavior should be appropriate, and guidance will be provided to those who do not know how to handle their emotions. You aren't going to leave your child alone and confused. and an hour is WAY to long. chances are the child has long forgotten how he got in there in the first place. and the only message it is sending is his feelings arent okay. he doesn't know its his behavior that is the problem. these things need to be separated and explained to him. "it's okay to be angry, but what can we do besides yell?" "if you absolutely must yell, we can go let out a yell in your room. its not considerate to yell in parts of the house that belong to everyone" if you go with him to his room when he needs to calm down he will not see it as a punishment, and will learn to go there on his own (without you) eventually in the future as he will have learned walking away and getting some time alone/space is a way he can calm himself down. a child can learn self discipline - but self punishment is definitely not something you want to teach a child (low self esteem)


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## majormajor (Nov 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ophelia* 

He sent me an email this morning with a little paragraph that explained basically a "time-in". Said he agreed with all of it except the parent staying by the child. He thinks the child should be isolated or ignored until behavior is acceptable









actually, this is good. all you need to do is convince him that isolating or ignoring isn't the best thing. have you read positive discipline? the copy i have has exercises at the end of each chapter, and one exercise is to try to remember times that you were disciplined as a child, and how it made you feel. they ask if you remember feeling inspired to do better the next time, or if you felt angry, hurt, and revengeful. the author asks how we came to expect that we can make children do better by making them feel worse.

i'd try talking about the concept with your H first. time out alone in a room isn't necessarily harsh IMO, it's more the way a parent does it that can make it harsh. if you can get your H to understand the concept of gentle discipline, the exact mechanics of what you each use will be less important.

GL with teeth brushing, though. my DD hates shampooing her hair. fortunately, you can go a lot longer between shampoos than you can between brushings. if it were me, though, i'd let him brush his own teeth for a while and see if the phase passes on its own. but i'm staunchly in the "they're just baby teeth" category. also DH and i have 1 cavity between us, and they say the tendancy to cavities is genetic, so i'm not too worried.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Leave some positive discipline books in the bathroom and remove all the other reading material. That's my #1 tip for getting a spouse (of either gender) to read something specific.

OP, it also sounds as though you and your husband might be having some issues and stresses that are showing up in struggles over discipline. Do you think a regular date night (or date brunch or whatever) might be helpful? It kind of sounds as though you and he are trying to have what should be about an hour-long conversation, but because of your schedules, the conversation is in 10-second sound bites so it's taking weeks to finish.


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## Ophelia (Feb 16, 2005)

Thanks, I hate to say it but I have my doubts he will care what I have to say about it. I just remembered something else about last night. I asked him:

-what do you think DS is thinking while laying there in his room? "I don't care"

-isn't an hour an awfully long time? "I don't care"

See what I mean?









I highlighted the parts of the tantrum article and I will send that to him and see what happens. I have been putting off sending it to him.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
Leave some positive discipline books in the bathroom and remove all the other reading material. That's my #1 tip for getting a spouse (of either gender) to read something specific.

OP, it also sounds as though you and your husband might be having some issues and stresses that are showing up in struggles over discipline. Do you think a regular date night (or date brunch or whatever) might be helpful? It kind of sounds as though you and he are trying to have what should be about an hour-long conversation, but because of your schedules, the conversation is in 10-second sound bites so it's taking weeks to finish.

Oh, believe me I WISH the book thing would work. He does not read books unless he wants to. Which doesn't include anything I'd ask him to read. I dont' even know if he reads the short articles, etc. that I email to him.
Yes, there are issues and our counselor has brought up the date night idea several times. We still hardly get out much. I also feel I cannot talk to him about this sort of stuff as he blows up, so i have to save it for our appts. which aren't that often. I don't want to get too off track though, since this is GD forum.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

"i dont care"
if you don't care, then you need to step back and let someone who DOES care do the discipline.


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## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Here's an article that might be useful.

The Case Against Time Out

This article is kind of... well, inflammatory.

Quote:

"When time-out is used, parents first firmly demand that their child stop misbehaving and be quiet. The child is then usually required to go and sit alone in a room, away from parents, and admonished not to come out of the room until they are sure that they can control their behavior. Being placed in time-out prolongs the time that a child must endure the frustrated need that caused their misbehavior. Thus, unmet normal needs become increasingly uncomfortable as the time-out continues. Young children depend upon, want to be with, love, and need their parents."
I do time outs with my daughter, but they are NOTHING like that. It's usually if she is hitting, pinching, somehow hurting people. I will tell her "Ok, time to go sit on the step." The step is a few feet away, not in another room, and I don't tell her to "stay there until" anything. I give her a few seconds (really) and then have her come back, apologize, talk about not hitting.

I just don't get this black and white view of TO's.

It's great for some people if they can handle hitting and toddler violence in other ways, but for me, for my own sanity, I need to separate us when she is hitting. (I have put MYSELF in TO's too, but that upsets her much much much more.)

As for the OP, I am not sure I really understand the question. But I do not think that letting a toddler cry until they do what you want (which would never ever NEVER work with my strong-willed kid anyways LOL) is *the same* as CIO alone, in a room, in a bed, in the dark. Not something I agree with at all, punishment definitely, but not the same as CIO to sleep.


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

I am so sorry that you and your ds are in this position. It sounds as though your h has some pretty deep issues to work through. Please protect youself and your ds as much as possible; even if your h is not a physical threat, he seems to be lashing out emotionally at you both.

This is something I posted recently on tantrums:

I am a self-confessed parenting-book-junkie. Even ones that I strongly disagree with interest me. Nearly all of them have a section on tantrums, and most of them say the same thing: either punish or banish the children until they are ready to 'be sweet'. Rarely are we taught how to deal with strong feelings--instead, the underlying message is that they simply shouldn't exist. If you are sad, angry, frustrated or even frightened, you must at least pretend to be calm and quiet. If you are a child, then you have even less right to express your feelings, especially if an adult would consider the reason trivial (...or I'll give you something to cry about!).

Now, to be clear, in our house, hurting people or property is never an option, regardless of how strong the feelings are. And, particularly in public settings, it may be necessary to go someplace more private so as not to disrupt others. But I think it is worth examining our reactions to a child whose emotions are not all sweetness and light. Even Jesus got upset. There is nothing wrong, in itself, with being angry or sad or any other emotion.

As adults, most of us still throw our own version of a tantrum, just in a more sophisticated way. We don't lie on the floor or kick and scream (at least, I hope not!), but how many of us have lashed out verbally at someone, with hurtful or sarcastic words or yelling? And while it is easy to smile at the unimportance of the little thing that triggers a toddler's meltdown, have you ever overreacted simply because you had already had more than you could take emotionally? Maybe you were short on sleep or not feeling well, or hungry and needed a snack, and one little thing pushed you over the edge? I've certainly BTDT.

I've had times where I was stressed about a situation at work, tired and cranky, and snapped at my dh. He didn't deserve it. So, as someone who loved me, how should he respond? He could retaliate in kind (punish) or just ignore me or give me the silent treatment (banishment/time out/etc) until I started acting 'sweet'. After all, that is the suggested deterrent, right? Otherwise, we are 'rewarding bad behavior'. But then what? If he made a sarcastic comment back, chances are it would just escalate and I would send a zinger right back. If he simply froze me out, I would be hurt, even if I recognized the illogic of it. And if he made any comment about avoiding me until I was 'sweet', it would not go over well at all.

On the other hand, what if he came up and put his arms around me and listened to what was wrong? I wouldn't start cackling inwardly because I 'got away with it'. Instead, I would probably melt, and genuinely apologize for snapping. We would be connected and he would be helping to bear my burden. Thank God, I married a wise man, and he would probably choose the last option.

Another thing--have you ever started crying and not been able to stop? Isn't it the most awful feeling? I remember a time when I was hormonal and stressed. I hadn't slept well, etc, and I started sobbing (over something that was truly not the end of the world--we are all still here, after all) and the more I tried to stop the worse it got. I was so embarrassed and frustrated--I hate losing control--but I still kept crying. How frightening it must be as a toddler to have such powerful emotions and not always be able to turn it off on cue!

I know that 'doing unto others' falls short sometimes because we all respond differently (ds wants to be held during a meltdown, dd usually doesn't), but at least it is a good starting point. I am sure that there are kids who like to be alone when they get that upset, too, and I think that is fine. Regardless, we can try to comfort in the moment. Then, when they are calm and able to learn, we can show them other ways to be honest about their feelings in socially appropriate ways.

One thing that I see in the books is encouraging children to 'use their words'. This is great. When it works. Dd has always been really verbal, but if she is really upset, having her 'use her words' wouldn't always adequately convey the intensity of her feelings. (It doesn't always for me, either, and my vocabulary is far more extensive). For awhile, she would do an angry or sad dance for us. Another thing that worked well was to pretend to be an animal (if a lion felt that angry, how would he roar? How would an elephant stomp if she were that upset?).

By far the most effective for her, though, was story-telling. Even in the middle of a meltdown she would stop to listen if we told her a story about another little kid who felt that way when x happened. It is funny, because even now she will ask for a story about how Sally felt when she wanted the toy but her little brother wasn't yet finished with it, or whatever, when she is trying to make choices about how to handle something. Ds, OTOH hasn't gotten into stories as much--he usually needs to blow off steam physically.

There are a lot of other ways where children can honestly and openly share their feelings, such as through painting or drawing. Perhaps writing a song. IMO, the important thing is helping them learn to handle intense emotions in a safe way.


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## puddle (Aug 30, 2007)

On the toothbrushing issue, one thing that is working for me right now is to have stuffed animals brush my DD's teeth. She will open her mouth once for each animal for about 2 seconds, but if I have a big enough pile of toys then we can get her teeth brushed.

As far as your main issue... Just a few quick thoughts. It sounds like you and your H are in a power struggle, which is just as unproductive as being in a power struggle with your son. My DH and I have very different parenting ideas. When we have a conflict, what works best for us is to look for common ground. I point out that we both one the same thing for our daughter--for her to grow into a happy, independent woman. We just have different ideas about how to get her to that point. Somehow reminding him that I really don't want my daughter to be nursing and sleeping with me and needing me every second of the day when she's 20 seems to calm him down a little. We really do want the same thing. Our other issue is that since I am the SAHP, I naturally spend more time with DD and have more input in her daily life. DH is understandably jealous about that, and sometimes that's the real issue. It isn't that he REALLY cares about the little issue he's fighting about--he just doesn't know how else to have input in her life. Encouraging them to spend time alone together seems to help, although you understandably won't feel comfortable doing that with your H until you feel like you can trust him.

Good luck, mama--I hope you can find a way to work this out for all of you.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

pretty pixels, if you are empathizing with the childs feelings, that sounds like time IN not time out









I don't use time out, but when necessary I do use a form of time in. of course, for me time in isn't in my lap because my kids don't like that. I just sit in the other room with them (thats what calms them down) until THEY are feelings calm and ready to go. they comply of course, because I am there with them and not forcing them, and also because they decide when they are calm, with a set amount of time, such as the time out method, then someone else is telling them when they ARE calm or when they SHOULD be calm. thats what I don't like about it personally. and also, the being alone until calm approach (evejn if it takes an hour) I dont like because its going to take the child longer to calm down in isolation/punishment then when being "helped" - because they don't have to calm down about what happened, they also have to calm down about how they were treated about what happened (time out/isolation/ignored... feeling betrayed, unloved, etc)

I dont see any reason to see the article as inflammatory. The described what their definition of time out was for the sake of that article. if that is not how you practice it then its not about what you are doing. from the sounds of it, your approach is not a traditional time out, which is what the article is talking about. You may call it a time out, but the article is not saying "if you use an approach called time out then" its saying "if you use time out, which we are defining as ____, then" so really I see no need to be offended by that article.

I personally wouldn't say "okay time to go sit on the step" or require an apology (though I'd explain why they should apoloogize and leave that up to them) I would also talk about not hitting. but I would add to that approach some empathy, and approach the sitting on the step (or in my kids case their room on their bed), as a way to calm down. such as "I see you need help calming down. Let's go sit in your room" If they didnt need my help calming down, they would either calm themselves down, or they would go to their room on their own to calm down. any of these options is fine with me. It's similar to what you do, and it's definitely not time out. and even if what you do you do consider time out, it is not how that article is defining the kind of time out they are talkign about.


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## Ks Mama (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ophelia* 
-I just learned last night that H made DS CIO in his room alone for up to an hour while I was gone in order to gain compliance (or get him to stop tantruming about something). I think this happened a few times. H says it worked and he doesn't have a problem with DS anymore (which I do not believe as he had a problem just the other night)

From the article: "The practice of separating a child in time-out from parents can in itself become the cause of future misbehavior, because being alone and in time-out increases the frustrations felt by a child who is already frustrated."

I wonder if H's "CIO timeout compliance" is backfiring on him and making things worse even though he claims that DS being a 'brat' is my fault!


This sounds like your DH has the problem, moreso than your child, and moreso even than the time out. No one's behavior is anyone else's fault. Does your DH have a problem overall with taking responsibility for his own actions?

Anyhow...
I haven't read the article, but just from that quote, here's my take. That may very well be true for some children... that being forced to separate in a punishment fashion isn't helpful. Because feelings shouldn't be punished. But separation in & of itself, I don't believe would cause frustration in some children. My daughter, when beside herself, being hurtful to herself or others in word or deed, and unable to be redirected or calmed, does MUCH better when I ask her to take herself to her room to calm down. It's not a punishment. It's a request for peace & an aknowledgement that we ALL deserve to live in harmony - and if one person is unable to be helpful in the goal of a harmonious family because their feelings are coming out in hurtful or disturbing ways, then that person, in charge of their OWN behavior, needs to go somewhere to get rid of their anger/loudness/irritation in a way that doesn't disturb others. That doesn't mean I can't come with her if she's WILLING to have me help her calm down. I certainly HAVE helped her calm down, when my help is wanted, and available (sometimes I'm not always fully available to help weather a tantrum when my baby is needing me, or sometimes my OWN feelings are not in the right place to be helpful to others, and I need my OWN time away to calm down), but oftentimes, in order to maintain peace for myself & the rest of my family, I ask my children to take themselves to a place where they can be angry without hurting someone, until they are able to interact peacefully.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ophelia* 
Yes, there are issues and our counselor has brought up the date night idea several times. We still hardly get out much. I also feel I cannot talk to him about this sort of stuff as he blows up, so i have to save it for our appts. which aren't that often. I don't want to get too off track though, since this is GD forum.

Follow your counselor's instructions then! They must be great since I agree with them.


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## Ks Mama (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
and also, the being alone until calm approach (evejn if it takes an hour) I dont like because its going to take the child longer to calm down in isolation/punishment then when being "helped" - because they don't have to calm down about what happened, they also have to calm down about how they were treated about what happened (time out/isolation/ignored... feeling betrayed, unloved, etc)

It really depends on the child though. With my son, he prefers touch, and/or company when he's frustrated or tantruming. My daughter has NEVER preferred that, and I've spent a lot of time feeling unnecessarily guilty or incompetant because I was trying to conform to a standard of gentle discipline that requires a parent to stay in contact with a tantruming child even if they don't WANT that contact - I felt that I must be doing something wrong if my child didn't want to be held or helped through a tantrum.

My daughter does NOT take longer to calm down when being "helped". She calms herself down much more quickly when she heads up to her room & gets involved in a task. If it seems that she's NOT calming down, I will suggest a task or activity that she work on and sometimes she's amenable to that, sometimes she wants NO interaction until she's figured it out herself.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

but you are not doing it as punishment you are doing out of respect. there is a difference. I will say to my child "do you want me to stay, or do you need to be alone?" I guess I worded my last post poorly by not making this distinction. but a child who is being punished by being put into isolation and are upset by this action its not going to help, because they probably aren't even tantrumming about the "problem" anymore, they are now tantrumming about being abandoned. A child whose space is being respected is not being abandoned. I think its all about respecting your child - seeing their feelings as valuable, seeing these things as teachable moments "how can I use this to teach my child a good way to express emotions" yes, for some children its going to be alone, and for some it's being removed from the situation. of course we wont always "be there" - but with time they will learn to remove themselves without out help - or how to manage their feelings without our help. its okay if they manage their feelings without our help - thats the end goal - but we should not FORCE them to handle feelings without our help - these are teachable moments - we should help them in a respectful way. children can not learn to manage their emotions in a healthy way if they aren't getting the help they NEED. in ytour case, your dd is able to handle her emotions alone, and prefers that. respect that. but for many children they need someone to calm them down, and then talk to them about ways they can calm themselves down in the future. and it may take a a long time for some children to get to the point they can calm down alone. and it's not horribly bad either if your child is one who finds comfort in others. as they grow they may find comfort from their siblings, family members, spouses, friends, counselors, teachers, etc in time of need. Our children will learn how to help themselves, and/or how to ask for help when they need it. this is more valuable then leaving them to figure out on their own when they don't know how... they only learn their feelings aren't okay and not to show them. what they need to learn is feelings are okay, we love them no matter what, and how to share their feelings in a healthy way (in your daughters case, she knows how - she knows what she needs and how to execute what she needs - by you respecting your daughters need for space when upset/angry you have taught a GOOD thing - you have taught her thats its OK to just want to be alone sometimes, that sometimes thats what we need to feel better... IMO that meets GD "standards: fine and you never should have felt like you were doing something wrong.)


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

that being said - ds1 used to not want contact during a tantrum. now he does, but its pressure-contact (deep sensory input) DD seems to like her space too. neither of them want to be alonewhen upset though - but if they wanted to be alone I would respect that. For DD I stay nearby, within sight, but no contact.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

If your husband is open to reading, I think The Secret of Parenting is a really good description of how to be non-punitive but still very much In Charge As The Parent.

I find some of it to be a little harsh/emotionally withholding for my personal style, but it might be something you and your husband could compromise on.

Edited to add: Oops, I see you said he won't read. Still, might be worth it for you to check it out and then run some of the ideas by him as suggestions. Not that I think you should have to do all the work, but...well, there it is.


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
I am so sorry how hard it must be to be parenting opposite your spouse instead of with your spouse. I have to say I can relate with that at times, but *ultimately my husband starts to follow my lead and my husband knows I have no tolerance for treating a child badly*.

<snip>

*You may need to apply some of these steps to your husband.*

"You are worried if we are gentle, that means we are being permissive, and that our son will act like a brat"
"You want us to work together. So do I. We need to find a solution we both feel comfortable with and confident about."

when he threatens say
"You seem frustrated I don't want to do it your way. We need to find a solution we both feel comfortable with. I need you to work with me in problem solving, not work against me with threats"

this approach has helped me with my husband, though my husband tends to gaslight so sometimes we hit a brick wall. it seems though, the next day he has taken in what I said previously and applying it. I also see him seeng what I do working, and then he starts using those methods as well.

FANTASTIC POST! OP, this is called active listening, or reflective speaking. It's an excellent communication tool. A lot of times when men 'shut down' they are simply done processing information because they don't feel validated. So validate and gently help with the processing.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
Leave some positive discipline books in the bathroom and remove all the other reading material. That's my #1 tip for getting a spouse (of either gender) to read something specific.

Whew! I'm not the only one who does this!!


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## Ophelia (Feb 16, 2005)

Quote:

"You want us to work together. So do I. We need to find a solution we both feel comfortable with and confident about."

We need to find a solution we both feel comfortable with.
I emailed him basically these things yesterday and he completely ignored me. He implied that he is going to continue to do the ignoring/putting in room while DS cries because 'it works for me'. I'm sure you should say that I should actually talk to him about it and not email, but I am too scared to do that and usually have to wait for our counseling appts (which are only 1-2x month).

To keep on topic, I got DS to somewhat sort of brush his teeth last night willingly! I tried the stuffed animal thing. We have a puppet and I had him brush the puppet's teeth (he insisted on using toothpaste so I stuck TP in the duck's beak to catch it) and then he let the puppet hold the brush and sort of get his teeth a little. I'll have to keep doing that for a while. H had actually asked him just before that (while I was getting the brush and DS said "no I dont want to brush my teeth") WHY DS did not want to brush but he will not tell us, just says he doesn't want to.


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## Materfamilias (Feb 22, 2008)

Some great advice here!
OP, it worries me when you say that you are scared to talk to your husband. Is he abusive towards you? I would say he is toward your ds.
This seems to be beyond most husbands' disinclination to read books on parenting. He seems to have some kind of pretty deep-seated issues that he's taking out on you and your ds.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I don't know if you are at this stage yet, but it might be a good time to start planning for getting out of the relationship. My husband was a very toxic person, I was scared to ask him what he wanted for dinner because he would explode about everything. He fluxuated between thinking our dd was great to thinking she was horrible and he almost hit her once. I was miserable and so was my dd and I was scared to leave. I made plans for leaving, a clear boundary at which I would not stay in the relationship if it was crossed, I looked into daycares for my dd in case I needed to go to work fast, and I found the resources for getting help and a job quickly. If you can put money aside while you make your decision do that now.

I realize this isn't the nicest topic to think about, but you are in fear of going home, in fear of talking to your husband, and it sounds like you are worried about your husbands effect on your child. Save up and look into your other options while you are trying counseling. If you never have to use the plan that would be great, if you do use it, you will be glad you are prepared and able to handle the transition a little better for the sake of your son.


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## labdogs42 (Jan 21, 2009)

Raising Your Spirited Child might be a good book for you to read, too. Maybe you could highlight a sentence or two for your H. It sounds like you need to move on from that relationship. Good luck and hugs to you. This can't be easy.

One idea about the toothbrushing -- offer your child a choice. Do you want Mommy or Daddy to brush your teeth? (see, not brushing isn't an option!) If he stalls, let him know you will give him until the count of three and then you will decide who brushes the teeth. Choices like that usually work pretty well for my DS. You have to find ways for the little ones to FEEL in control, even if they aren't really in control. You have to get creative sometimes, but it usually works pretty well!


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## webjefita (Aug 16, 2003)

I'm sorry it sounds as if your and your husband's relationship is more stressful than anything right now. I have been through similar bad patches in my marriage when it felt like my husband couldn't listen to anything I had to say. Here is my advice.

Figure out what you want to do in situations with your DS. Find your confidence. Parent from that. I found that my DH DOES follow my lead... good and bad. I sent my DS to his room a couple times for spitting at me, and the next thing I know my DH is sending him to his room for every little infraction. I just said, "We're not going to send him to his room for that." And I showed him how I would handle whatever DS was doing.

I also find that sometimes when my DH is home he tells me what's going on rather than just handling it ("DS1 is taking things away from DS2"). Depending on what I perceive to be his stress level, I either say, "Why are you telling me?" or if I think it's a teachable moment *for him*, I handle it and thus show him the way I think we should handle it. And next time I see him doing something similar. So when I feel really confident about what to do, how to do it, and what results we are going to get, he feels more comfortable doing it my way, following my lead, if that makes sense.

Lastly, I really do think talking is overrated sometimes. If you're in a spot where you and DH aren't getting anywhere talking, just don't stress about it. Sometimes I try to remember that DH doesn't communicate the way I (women) do... he doesn't do eye contact, he doesn't take criticism well, he usually feels uncomfortable talking about feelings. This doesn't mean any of this is wrong, it's just different than my style. So I go back to, show him what to do, instead of trying to talk it out. It really does work.

My DH freaks out easily over discipline stuff with the kids and he also tends to threaten when he's especially frustrated... I deal with it sort of like a child's tantrum, I ignore it for the moment and tell him we can talk about it when he calms down. In the meantime I try to go on with my activities and keep my spirits up, reminding myself that he's saying things he doesn't mean. He really truly is.

The book that has really helped me understand why and how men communicate the way they do, and what women do to help and harm communication and connection in our marriages is How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It. Now I may be way off base here, because I don't know how similar your situation is to mine. It sounds like your DH is acting in an extreme way and you do need to take your feelings seriously... like how "scared" are you. But I think in most cases one person can make a tremendous improvement in the marriage and the other person will follow suit. GL!


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

that book!


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## soso-lynn (Dec 11, 2007)

With your husband acting that way it is by no means surprising that your son will have control and power issues. It will only get worse. You need to focus on treating the root cause of the problem, your DH's behaviour.

You mentionned that he still nurses, perhaps using that as a means to calm him down enought to talk would be helpful. When my daughter was that age, she would start crying and physically not be able to stop sometimes. She would nurse and fall asleep, usually just for a few minutes. After that, we could have a conversation about it.

You should keep in mind that those tantrums are part of growing up and that he is learning how the world works and being socialized. What he learns on that level is way more important than the specific outcome of the situation.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

I like the idea that 60 minutes of a child sobbing alone in his room is discipline that "works" whereas I'm sure you could have found a solution in less than 10.


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## Ophelia (Feb 16, 2005)

Quote:

Is he abusive towards you?
I read a book about verbal abuse on advice from the counselor and there was some stuff talked about in there that he does (shutting down the conversation, blame, threats, etc)

Quote:

If you never have to use the plan that would be great, if you do use it, you will be glad you are prepared and able to handle the transition a little better for the sake of your son.
Thanks! Will remember that.

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Raising Your Spirited Child might be a good book for you to read, too.
I'm about halfway through it but I think I need to skip forward to the more specific (how-to-deal-with) sections in the last half. I saw the chapter on tantrums and had H read it this weekend. I hope some of it sunk in. We did talk about it some. He 'says' he does not like to send DS to his room (he does it at the drop of a hat though).
The author actually lives close to us, but appts are expensive so we are thinking about it. Not sure what DH thinks yet.

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One idea about the toothbrushing -- offer your child a choice. Do you want Mommy or Daddy to brush your teeth?
We've tried that







doesn't usually work. the puppet thing is working a bit, but I barely got the brush in his mouth last night and he was done, no more.

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I found that my DH DOES follow my lead
Thanks, I was able to calm DS down quickly at least once this weekend, then after told DH what I did. yesterday though, we were at the zoo and DS was already tired and had a meltdown because he wanted to nurse on a bench that was farther away and we were working our way towards the door. He tantrumed all the way to the truck and was heck to get him settled but he fell alseep right away. I tried to reiterate to DH that DS was TIRED and that's why he had a meltdown so technically it's not DS's fault. I didn't go back to the other bench because 1. DH would have been livid that we 'gave in' and 2. I had already told DS no and kept walking. I feel DS is getting too demanding sometimes and I can't give in all the time. I'm torn on this. thanks for the book suggestion, will add it to my list.

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With your husband acting that way it is by no means surprising that your son will have control and power issues. It will only get worse.
There is a sentence in the Spirited Child tantrum chapter that alludes to this but I didn't want to point it out quite yet to DH.

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You mentionned that he still nurses, perhaps using that as a means to calm him down enought to talk would be helpful
Sometimes if he is too upset then he doesn't even want to nurse which is really unusual for him. He is quite attached to the b00bs.

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I like the idea that 60 minutes of a child sobbing alone in his room is discipline that "works" whereas I'm sure you could have found a solution in less than 10
I know. Actually, yesterday I waited to go to the grocery store until I knew DS was sleeping at naptime. When I got home, I found out he had woke up once and was upset that I was not there. DH said he went into the room and asked if he could help DS, DS told him to go away and cried. DH tried to help him but DS did not want him there so DH left him alone and DS went back to sleep. That was so nice to hear that he let him be, didn't start yelling at him to quiet, etc (he may not have been crying a lot). He also said at the time that DS went over to him, got the really angry look on his face and hit him. I think he realized (for once) that DS was hitting him out of frustration and didn't know how else to express it.

Also, on Sat. after DS had been sent to his room - again - I went into the room and asked DS what happened. All he would say was daddy sent him there. Then w/o any prompting from me he said DH scared him! I told DH that and his first instinct was to blame me and say that I baby him. Then apparently he was worrying about it. Then yesterday when DS was nursing he again said it, so I asked DH to come into the room but DS wouldn't repeat it with him there. I told DH he said it again. So hopefully that will sink in that it really is affecting DS.


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## webjefita (Aug 16, 2003)

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Then apparently he was worrying about it.
Well, this is a good sign. I know it seems sometimes like they don't take us seriously or don't worry about it but (if he is a good guy and seems he is!) we really have to trust that they are trying their best and they do worry about everything that happens to their family. Before I get upset at DH I constantly remind myself that his greatest fear is somehow failing us, so I try to be gentle with him the same way I am with my children. I know if I were to tell him that DS said he was scared of him, esp. soon after the incident when Dh would have been *upset or ashamed* and not admitting it, he would feel awful and would get defensive (drives me crazy but he almost never apologizes! It's because he's overwhelmed by guilt and he just wants to move on.)

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I didn't go back to the other bench because 1. DH would have been livid that we 'gave in' and 2. I had already told DS no and kept walking. I feel DS is getting too demanding sometimes and I can't give in all the time. I'm torn on this.
I think this is just a line that you have to find for yourself. I know that age and it's very hard determining what is a need and what is a want, and what is a demand! It's easier for me the second time around. I think it's just so important to make a decision and then be confident in it, and your DS will feel comforted even if he doesn't like your decision, because he feels you're in charge and taking care of him. In fact, sometimes I tell my 2.5 yo in the middle of a tantrum that I know he doesn't like it, but we are doing it this way and I am taking care of him, and he doesn't have to worry about it.

Also, I think your DH will respond positively to this eventually. I came to the conclusion that because I'm the stay at home parent, I do have the major responsibility of setting the discipline and educating the children. Sometimes it doesn't feel like the joint venture I think it should be. I try not to criticize DH or correct him too much, because it will make him defensive. Just lead by example. (It feels like so much responsibility sometimes!)


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