# ?'s about claims of PA state law requiring Vitk and AB eye ointment



## foreskin friendly (Jul 16, 2007)

Hi all...
Usually I just read the extremely informative and helpful information here, but now I need some guidance from you ladies and gents. I will be having my third baby here in PA (my first 2 were born in NY, and before I knew what every parent should know prior to hospital births...)...
Well, today I decided to tour the local hospital maternity ward..had a bunch of questions..but one thing is nagging at me...
I asked about VitK and the eye AB for newborns, and the (very kind) nurse said that although we can decline the HepB shot, that it is required by law that the baby has both of these VitK shot and ABX for eyes. To that I said surely though, there must be some exemption that must be acknowledged, to which she said to check with one of the two local peds (my family goes to an DO, who is very supportive of our decisions about vax, and whom we only see when we are VERY sick, but she does not have priveledges at this hospital)...
I read through the newborn testing thread, but would appreciate any information or guidance to sources regarding both the VitaminK shot and the Erythromycin and *how to avoid these for my baby*.
Also, (unfortunately) this will be my third c-section..how does that play into the AB eye ointment?
thanks in advance all---


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## eireann (Sep 29, 2007)

just say no. put it in writing, and make a hospital rep sign it perhaps. i had the shortest birth plan ever "UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES WILL ANYTHING BE ADMINISTERED TO MY CHILD INTRAMUSCULARLY, ORALLY, OCULARLY, OR OTHERWISE WITHOUT CONSENT FROM MYSELF (name) and (DH)" if they persist, ask them if they plan on taking full responsibility should an adverse reaction occur within the next 18 years (given the studies on intraM vit K..)

if they take LO to the nursery, have your SO go and watch baby like a hawk, and be the gatekeeper. i told DH if it got to be too much, the company line is "go talk to my wife." i live in so cal so its a bit more liberal, but still, your child, your decision!


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## Emmeline II (Feb 16, 2006)

Never expect that they will know about and/or be honest about this type of thing:

http://vaclib.org/exempt/pennsylvania.htm


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## plunky (Aug 23, 2008)

I live in Pittsburgh, PA, and we declined Vitamin K with no problems. Put it on your birth plan.


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## CookAMH (Jun 2, 2008)

I'm also in Pittsburgh and know that for giving birth, a form will be signed to decline the eye ointment and vit K. We are not doing either.


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## smeisnotapirate (Aug 24, 2007)

She lied to you.

My DS was born in Lancaster, PA in June, and had none of them. Put it on your birth plan and make sure whoever is with you at your birth knows that they are not allowed to touch your DC with ointment or a needle. They will (most likely) still try to do it and plead ignorance later. DO NOT let the baby out of your (or someone else you trust) sight.

Your c-sec has nothing to do with it - 1st time or 50th time.

Make sure someone is with the baby AT ALL TIMES.


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## foreskin friendly (Jul 16, 2007)

I've read all of your posts and have read a bit otherwise...the links were also very helpful...much more confident now about where I stand, etc.... thank you!!!!


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## foreskin friendly (Jul 16, 2007)

hello... me again...
also just curious if those of you who refused the intraM vitK and eye ABX, did you also refuse the PKU test?

Were any of your deliveries via c-section? Everything I am reading is categorizing a c-sect delivery as "high risk" (regarding vitk)???

Do you have any reading suggestions on recent peer reviewed medical literature regarding the advantage of avoiding the vitK intraM?

I want to get my birth plan out of the way soon...and was just curious about these things (and have to ask what kind of soap they use on the initial cleaning/bath for babe too...)

thanks all!


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## PinkinPA (Feb 26, 2007)

we had a homebirth in February with midwives and birthcenter birth in May of 07. we declined PKU, HepB, eye goo and vitamin K. It is not required by law to do any of that stuff


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## kiara7 (Feb 14, 2008)

Eye ointment is especially not needed with a c-section and definitely not required by any law that you can't refuse.


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## eireann (Sep 29, 2007)

i did not refuse the PKU test.

i didn't deliver via c-section, but they put me on abx because i got a fever of 100.







: i wasn't very happy about it, especially since it knocked DD gut flora out of whack and she was not very happy for about 4 weeks.







i wish i had known about biogaia before this.

there's an article online from AAP that argues against the link btw childhood leukemia and IM vitK. its a PDF file, and can be found by googling vit k and leukemia. with our family history of cancer, i just didnt even want to take the chance with IM.


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## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

I'm going to move this over to B&B since it's not about vaccines.


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## liliaceae (May 31, 2007)

With a c/s there is absolutely no reason to do the eye ointment--it's to prevent infection caused by chlamydia or gonorrhea picked up in the birth canal.

I am getting the PKU screen done. It's a very important test that screens for metabolic disorders that can be treated if caught early, and might otherwise be debilitating or fatal. It's only a heel stick, so there aren't really any risks, just some minor discomfort.


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## Gitti (Dec 20, 2003)

Vita K is supposed to be given after a traumatic birth. That certainly does not hold true with a c- section. In reality it is mostly done because some boys bled to death after a circumcision and since they can't really blame it on that, they give it to all newborns. So, if your child is circed, I would just really watch him and take some herbs orally before nursing him.


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## foreskin friendly (Jul 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gitti* 
Vita K is supposed to be given after a traumatic birth. That certainly does not hold true with a c- section. In reality it is mostly done because some boys bled to death after a circumcision and since they can't really blame it on that, they give it to all newborns.

thank you!!!

So, if your child is circed, I would just really watch him and take some herbs orally before nursing him.

OMG!!! Never would we do/allow that (circ)!!!!!!!!!!!


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## foreskin friendly (Jul 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amnesiac* 
I'm going to move this over to B&B since it's not about vaccines.









OK - I'll look for whatever B&B is.. I've only visited the Case Against Circumcision and here!!!


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## liliaceae (May 31, 2007)

Ha ha I don't think Gitti realized what your username is.

B & B is Birth and Beyond.


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## liliaceae (May 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gitti* 
Vita K is supposed to be given after a traumatic birth. That certainly does not hold true with a c- section. In reality it is mostly done because some boys bled to death after a circumcision and since they can't really blame it on that, they give it to all newborns. So, if your child is circed, I would just really watch him and take some herbs orally before nursing him.

Oh and this isn't entirely accurate...vit K is given to prevent hemorrhaging in newborns who have Hemorrhagic Disease of the Newborn, which is rare.


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## foreskin friendly (Jul 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *liliaceae* 
With a c/s there is absolutely no reason to do the eye ointment--it's to prevent infection caused by chlamydia or gonorrhea picked up in the birth canal.

I am getting the PKU screen done. It's a very important test that screens for metabolic disorders that can be treated if caught early, and might otherwise be debilitating or fatal. It's only a heel stick, so there aren't really any risks, just some minor discomfort.

Honestly, I also have to do more research to feel completely comfortable with declining the PKU test. From what I currently understand, it is extremely rare (like 1 in 10,000) and typically has genetic links. Noone in my family for multiple generations that I know of has ever dealt with this. Joe's either...
I've also read that the test may not produce accurate results (false positives)...and am concerned with any invasive procedure that may allow a path for infection/bacteria to take hold...

Part of me really regrets that I didn't have homebirths from the start-seems as if everything is much less complicated!

Anyway - any other thoughts regarding Vitk, PKU, etc?


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## foreskin friendly (Jul 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *liliaceae* 
Ha ha I don't think Gitti realized what your username is.

B & B is Birth and Beyond.


Thanks - yeah... this forum was the first, and actually only one I've ever participated in. I had no idea how informative this forum is and that I would stick around. Initially, I was searching for a "foreskin friendly" Dr. and just defaulted to that as a user name. Would like to change it soon-sounds silly now to me!


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## foreskin friendly (Jul 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *liliaceae* 
Oh and this isn't entirely accurate...vit K is given to prevent hemorrhaging in newborns who have Hemorrhagic Disease of the Newborn, which is rare.

How rare? Do you know? Can you point me in the direction of credible info?
I talked to a ped over the phone last month (we go to a DO) and he immediately threw this out on the table (as a scare tactic, I keep saying)...

I am grateful I still have a bit of time to do more research!


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## liliaceae (May 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *foreskin friendly* 
How rare? Do you know? Can you point me in the direction of credible info?
I talked to a ped over the phone last month (we go to a DO) and he immediately threw this out on the table (as a scare tactic, I keep saying)...

I am grateful I still have a bit of time to do more research!

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org...rics;112/1/191


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## CookAMH (Jun 2, 2008)

I'm in PA and anticipate signing a waiver for the eye goop, not sure about vit K. You CAN get out of both of them. I won't have a fight at the birth center but if we end up at the hospital, we will be VERY diligent to ensure they're not "accidentally" given.


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## CookAMH (Jun 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *foreskin friendly* 

Anyway - any other thoughts regarding Vitk, PKU, etc?

We'll be doing PKU only and feel the benefits outweigh the risk. It's a heel prick and nothing injected internally or cut off







. They do test for many disorders that can be very dangerous.

If our baby is bruised from birth, we'll do the K.


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## liliaceae (May 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *foreskin friendly* 
Honestly, I also have to do more research to feel completely comfortable with declining the PKU test. From what I currently understand, it is extremely rare (like 1 in 10,000) and typically has genetic links. Noone in my family for multiple generations that I know of has ever dealt with this. Joe's either...
I've also read that the test may not produce accurate results (false positives)...and am concerned with any invasive procedure that may allow a path for infection/bacteria to take hold...

Part of me really regrets that I didn't have homebirths from the start-seems as if everything is much less complicated!

Anyway - any other thoughts regarding Vitk, PKU, etc?

Actually the PKU test is now called Newborn Screening, and it tests for more disorders than just PKU. All of the disorders are rare, but when you put them all together it's a lot less rare, you know? Here's a link that includes some incidence rates: http://kidshealth.org/parent/system/...ing_tests.html Just scroll down to "What Disorders Will Be Screened for in My Newborn?"

Hope that helps!


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## Bellabaz (Feb 27, 2008)

I grew up in Pa. I know they have conscientious exemptions for stuff like that. THey have all those Amish there, they can't just make a law with no exceptions. I was never vaxed, but I don't know about the other stuff. THe ladies ehre seem to know though and they are saying it is not required.


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## amymaew (Apr 25, 2007)

I'm in PA and had a homebirth. I just had to sign a waiver for the Vit K and the eye goop. I've had doula clients in the hospital decline both and they just had to sign a waiver, too. HTH!


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## because why not? (Feb 20, 2009)

AMA waiver. That way they get to act all spoooooky and threatening with the "well, if anything goes wrong, you will have to accept responsibility..." junk.


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## foreskin friendly (Jul 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *because why not?* 
ama waiver. That way they get to act all spoooooky and threatening with the "well, if anything goes wrong, you will have to accept responsibility..." junk.









ama ???


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## wbg (Mar 28, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *foreskin friendly* 

I want to get my birth plan out of the way soon...and was just curious about these things (and have to ask what kind of soap they use on the initial cleaning/bath for babe too...)

thanks all!

Just wanted to add that you can refuse the bath altogether as well. You can just request that your partner simply rubs baby gently down with a towel and that will be fine. Hospital baths can be quite rough and then they put the baby in a warmer as it is not able to regulate its temp. Where I come from, babies are not bathed until day 3 or 4 when they can bath without needing a warmer, just a snuggle with Mum! And they are only bathed by their parents. No serious scrubbing necessary!! Okay..a little off topic, I know







.


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## foreskin friendly (Jul 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wbg* 
Just wanted to add that you can refuse the bath altogether as well. You can just request that your partner simply rubs baby gently down with a towel and that will be fine. Hospital baths can be quite rough and then they put the baby in a warmer as it is not able to regulate its temp. Where I come from, babies are not bathed until day 3 or 4 when they can bath without needing a warmer, just a snuggle with Mum! And they are only bathed by their parents. No serious scrubbing necessary!! Okay..a little off topic, I know







.

NO worries, actually, this is exactly what I wanted to hear about! I've also heard the soap used isn't necessarily made with gentle ingredients either-that was my main concern...
but I'm glad you contributed! Interesting!


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## liliaceae (May 31, 2007)

AMA = Against Medical Advice, it's a waiver they have you sign if you won't do what they want you to do.

I think they typically use Johnson & Johnson baby shampoo, which you're right is full of nasty chemicals. I plan to skip the bath entirely. From what I've read on here, they'll just put a hazardous sign on baby's bassinet and the nurses will use gloves when handling baby. Or if you want to give the baby a bath in the hospital, you could just bring your own soap.


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## foreskin friendly (Jul 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *liliaceae* 
AMA = Against Medical Advice, it's a waiver they have you sign if you won't do what they want you to do.

I think they typically use Johnson & Johnson baby shampoo, which you're right is full of nasty chemicals. I plan to skip the bath entirely. From what I've read on here, they'll just put a hazardous sign on baby's bassinet and the nurses will use gloves when handling baby. Or if you want to give the baby a bath in the hospital, you could just bring your own soap.


HAZARDOUS!?!?!?!?!? Sorry, but I am just







!!!

I can see it now, me & DP, the substandard, negligent parents that the nurses and staff are all whispering about....and our hazardous baby... (they won't be doing much with baby anyways...!)

Oh, I could have so much fun with that! (Maybe I'll not only bring my own soap, but my own bassinet sign too...I'll have to ponder this one a bit!)


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## Sk8ermaiden (Feb 13, 2008)

My DH and I think hospital staff using gloves to handle a newborn could only ever be a good thing. A perk of refusing the bath?


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## foreskin friendly (Jul 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sk8ermaiden* 
My DH and I think hospital staff using gloves to handle a newborn could only ever be a good thing. A perk of refusing the bath?

Cheers to that!


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## *MamaJen* (Apr 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *liliaceae* 
Actually the PKU test is now called Newborn Screening, and it tests for more disorders than just PKU. All of the disorders are rare, but when you put them all together it's a lot less rare, you know? Here's a link that includes some incidence rates: http://kidshealth.org/parent/system/...ing_tests.html Just scroll down to "What Disorders Will Be Screened for in My Newborn?"

Hope that helps!

I declined just about all the interventions, but felt 100 percent comfortable doing the PKU/metabolic screening. It's not an intervention, just a moment of discomfort for the baby. The midwife elevated and warmed up my baby's heel before doing the prick, and I nursed him right before and after, and I think he fussed for about eight seconds. Not a big deal. He was way more traumatized by the footprint for his birth certificate.
It looks like the incidence of false positives is pretty low. And more importantly, the metabolic diseases can cause devastating and permanent mental retardation if they go unchecked, but by early detection you can control the diet and avoid the effects. That's the whole point of the PKU testing -- to find out if the disease is present so you can keep it from harming your baby.
Also, I wouldn't bank on the the fact that nobody else that you know of has had the disease -- here's one explanation I turned up:
"Recessive diseases may hide in families for generations, never exhibited until the "right" (wrong) partner comes along. A negative family history and several healthy children is not a guarantee of protection. Add the fact that genetic mutations can crop up and a family with no history of disease suddenly can find itself with a sick member."

I believe 100 percent in educating yourself about side effects and making informed choices. But I think the metabolic screening is nearly risk-free. The odds are low that the test will turn up anything, but if your child is one of the 4,000 or 10,000 or 20,000 with the metabolic disease, you'd want to know. It would be a few seconds of pain versus a lifetime of severe mental retardation.


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## liliaceae (May 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by **MamaJen** 
I declined just about all the interventions, but felt 100 percent comfortable doing the PKU/metabolic screening. It's not an intervention, just a moment of discomfort for the baby. The midwife *elevated* and warmed up my baby's heel before doing the prick, and I nursed him right before and after, and I think he fussed for about eight seconds. Not a big deal. He was way more traumatized by the footprint for his birth certificate.

You mean she lowered it right? Elevating it would make the blood drain away from the heel.


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## *MamaJen* (Apr 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *liliaceae* 
You mean she lowered it right? Elevating it would make the blood drain away from the heel.

Oh, yeah. Good catch. I meant to say you hold the baby upright.

Here's a good thread on it from the MDC archives: http://www.mothering.com/discussions.../t-365603.html


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## Maggi315 (Aug 31, 2003)

The hospitals around here give you a form with all the things they plan to do on it, like vit k, hep b, ointment, etc. If you don't want something, you cross it out and initial next to it.

Oh, we are in PA, btw. and as a homebirth midwife, we rarely do vit. k or ointment.

It is definitely not a state law, it's just them trying to bully people into doing what they want.

I wouldn't just put it in your birth plan, people don't even look at them, I would make sure when you are signing the papers, you handwrite in what you DON'T want before you sign, then make the nurse witness it.


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## amymaew (Apr 25, 2007)

My daughter had a false positive on the PKU test for galactosemia. I'd still get the test for future children though - I'd rather know if my child had one of the diseases they test for and risk having a stressful week like I did than not know and risk their life kwim? That's my personal reasoning for it.


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## luckymamato2 (Jun 3, 2006)

I gave birth to my dd in PA in 2006, in a freestanding birth center and declined the eye stuff but not the vit K. I probably should have declined that too, but didn't see the harm in doing it at the time - she didn't have any side affects from it that I recall.

I didn't have ANY problems declining those. Just had to sign the waivers.

A nurse did the PKU at home on day 3 or so.


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