# what do I say to non-gd-ers?



## kathipaul (Sep 24, 2004)

I have several friends who practice gentle discipline and attachment parenting and they are great to be with. However, I have my dd in swim lessons and co-op preschool and we are occasionally talking amongst the moms and the subject of discipline will come up. Some moms are already practicing negative discipline and surprise, surprise they have toddlers who don't behave for them. They take away toys and punish kids as young as 18 mos. I have a 19 mos dd and don't have problems with her that cannot be handled with gentle practices. How do you all react to others who are being really negative with their children? I try to just talk about something else or just ask them "is that working" or "does your child understand?" I don't want to put these moms off since we are socializing together but I occasionally find their actions appalling.

I want to add that I know that I do things that they find appalling, like breastfeeding a toddler, co-sleeping, and letting my dd watch tv so I am not perfect.

Kathy


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

I am right there with you-- I am the freak of the preschool. I typically say nothing. When they use negative discipline in front of DS (2y7m), I distract him so that he does not have to see it. I let my actions, and my child's behavior be the model for how we live. They all almost had a cow right there on the playground when I said I nursed until 28 months and was SAD when he weaned. I never comment on what they are doing. If someone asked how I got Will to do something, I would tell them how we handle things. IME, moms are pretty comfortable with the way they are doing things. They believe that they are doing it right for them and their families. Moms who are not happy with how things are going will seek ideas from moms whose approaches seem to be working. I think they would be put off if you even asked a simple question.


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## rareimer (Oct 20, 2003)

ITA with annab. as appalling as i can find their parenting sometimes, i mostly just ignore it, and try to let my actions speak for themselves. part of the reason is i just become speechless when an acquaintance of mine says of her 2 year old son after she locks him in the bedroom by himself for hitting her, "don't you just feel like it's not working unless they're miserable?" ummm...HUH?! better just not to say anything. if she asks my advice, i give it, but most of the time i just don't get involved. i try to keep jasmyn from seeing some of it, other than that i guess it's just not my place.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rareimer*
"don't you just feel like it's not working unless they're miserable?"

I would take this as an invitation to give my opinion and experience. If you don't say anything, she may think you agree. If you disagree, you may be surprised to find that she really is looking for other ideas because she feels like what she's doing is not working.


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## kathipaul (Sep 24, 2004)

These are all great ideas. I think it is best to just lead by example and wait to share my thoughts if I am specifically asked. Biting my tongue is going to be hard but I would rather have my child in the preschool, having the 2 hours a week of play time with a great teacher and some nice kids, than risk alienating the moms and feeling uncomfortable myself. Thanks for all the advice.

PS I still breastfeed my 19 mo dd and the preschool moms have actually been nice about that.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I usually try to make comments that reflect empathy for the child's POV. For instance,

"Its hard to be a toddler, isn't it?

"You can tell she is bright because she is so curious about everything."

"Wow, she is an expert at expressing her feelings isn't she?"

"That sort of persistance will get him far in life, you know?"

"She's having a really tough day, isn't she?"


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Believe me, I understand your predicament. The only time in my life when I was able to stop an entire crowd from speaking was when, outside my then 3 y.o. DD's preschool, I told one other mom that I don't punish. Every mom there stopped talking and stared at me and asked with bewilderment, "Then what do you do when she's bad?"

I tend to say little to non-gd'ers unless they directly ask for my opinion or advice. I figure they observe how I speak to DD and deal with any inappropriate behavior, see that my DD is generally well-behaved and polite and an all-around great kid, and draw their own conclusions.

I have found that often when I do say something, people are quick to separate themselves from me by saying, "Well, it's different when you only have one child," or "Your daughter is just so much easier than mine; you're lucky," and this way they convince themselves that what I do would never work for them.


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## Too Busy (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck*
I usually try to make comments that reflect empathy for the child's POV. For instance,

"Its hard to be a toddler, isn't it?

"You can tell she is bright because she is so curious about everything."

"Wow, she is an expert at expressing her feelings isn't she?"

"That sort of persistance will get him far in life, you know?"

"She's having a really tough day, isn't she?"

OMG I LOVE THESE!!!!

Thank you mamaduck, you rock!


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LunaMom*
"Well, it's different when you only have one child," or "Your daughter is just so much easier than mine; you're lucky," and this way they convince themselves that what I do would never work for them.

I have heard that several times, too! Grr. Fortunately, my best friend (who did punish her kids, BTW, but they are much older) can see how lively my dd is and that we actually *do* discipline. She often calls my dd her oldests' name b/c they are so similar, and I think it's been interesting to her to see how we've handled the *exact same* discipline issues differently - she just did is 12 yrs. ago and with a different mindset. So she is quick to defend me when those comments come up. OTOH, she says I'm the first non-spanking person she's seen who actually *disciplines* - I think so many people equate GD with permissiveness, and that's so not the case.


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## pahkahsmom (Apr 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck*
I usually try to make comments that reflect empathy for the child's POV. For instance,

"Its hard to be a toddler, isn't it?

"You can tell she is bright because she is so curious about everything."

"Wow, she is an expert at expressing her feelings isn't she?"

"That sort of persistance will get him far in life, you know?"

"She's having a really tough day, isn't she?"

ITA mamaduck...i do think it's important to say something, some of the times- when it seems most important (otherwise, it feels like we could say something all of the time) i know when i'm feeling stressed, like when dd sat on the steps of the post office-screeching-it was great to have a stranger say "that's a great set of lungs...she'll be a singer in no time" etc... i find that playful comments (like the ones mamaduck suggests) help to distract, and make for a segway into a conversation with a mom who is probably tired/overworked/stressed and needs a little support...i think it's also important that not everyone may have the same skills or knowledge about GD- which makes it even more important to share and talk about...


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## nova22 (Jun 26, 2004)

"You can tell she is bright because she is so curious about everything."

That's an especially good one! What parent doesn't like to hear that her child is intelligent? You could also say "She sure knows how to stand up for herself, that will come in handy later in life."


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## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

Mamaduck, that is EXACTLY what I'm doing! I always stick up for the child when the moms aren't









I find myself in that position too with this one mom. She bothers me, the way she treats her child. But she really likes me! And I like her son. She talks in a really disrespectful way to him and says negative comments to us. I stick up for him and turn his "negative qualities" (in her eyes) into positives. How can a 14-month-old possibly be "bad"??

KathiPaul: What do you mean with taking away toys? Now I'm having a moment of insecurity.

I use AP/Positive Discipline and if ds puts a really dirty toy (almost no other toys, but he has this ball that catches all the dirt everywhere) to his mouth. Let's say I've repeatedly told him "No mouth" and gently push the ball down away from his mouth. Then if he still does, I tell him that the ball is for throwing, model. If he still does, I tell him he can stop putting the ball in his mouth or I'll take it away.

If he _still_ does, I take the ball away for about a minute or redirect him/distract him to another toy of interest or a cracker. BTW, he's 14 months old. Is this positive/gentle IYO?


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I'l let Kathipaul answer for herself, but what I thought of when I read her post was a sort of arbitrary, _"If you don't settle down and behave I'm going to go into your room and confiscate your favorite teddy bear!"_ Totally different than what you are doing sagira. However, if you want an alternate idea.... what about offering to "trade" for a toy that is "okay to bite?" I don't think they put things in their mouths unless they are feeling a need to have something in their mouths, kwim?


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Sagira, I also try to frame things in the positive in those situations. "Balls are for hands. Crackers (or whatever) are for mouths." And then do what you said with the demo of balls being for hands. I try not to say, "No mouth" or the like because all they hear is 'mouth'.

There was a study in Psychology Today several years ago that talked about how we process what we hear. One of the things they looked at was how people who are in the middle of nowhere and have a car wreck manage to hit the one tree among acres of nothingness. What they determined was that as they lost control of the car, people were saying to themselves, "Don't hit the tree. Don't hit the tree." The brain heard "tree tree" and that is where they ended up. Same thing happens when I say, "Don't eat the cheesecake."


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

mmmmmmmmm..... cheesecake.......









Sorry.







T I'm easily distracted.


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## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

Thanks, mamas! I guess I was copying the other mamas in the playgroup with the "no mouth" thing. Balls are for hands sounds great!

I'm going to do that next time.

Cheers,


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## kathipaul (Sep 24, 2004)

To Mamaduck and Sagira: I guess what I meant about the other moms is that they will say something like "if you don't do what I am saying you will not be going to the zoo tomorrow" or "I am going to take those blocks away if you don't stop throwing them." These kids I am talking about are all 18 mos to 2.5 years but I still think of them as babies and I think this kind of discipline is better suited for older kids. With my 19 mos dd, she would not understand what I am doing if I took a toy away and would just get hurt. I do take toys away from her when she is repeatedly beaning me on the head with them but only on the sly as I distract her with something softer.









Kathy


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## Penalt (Jan 28, 2004)

As a non-GD parent of two I can give you some advice from the other side of the equation. When talking to a non-GD parent you MUST above all else, hold to the tenets of GD when talking to them. If you do not then you will be looked upon as a hypocrite and any chance of communicating the GD method will be lost. As you, and by extension GD, will be looked upon as 'do as I say, not as I do" and the minds will close to you faster than the hand of a two year old on a chocolate cookie.

Treat the other person in the way that you would like to be treated. If you immediately(sp) condemn them, become accusatory or sarcastic with them you will instantly raise their defense mechanisms and again you will have prevented yourself from communicating the GD viewpoint.

Empathy, respect and logic are the keys to communicating any viewpoint in a manner that will encourage the other person to first internalize your words and then, hopefully, come to understand your viewpoint. After that it becomes far, far easier to have them change in the manner you wish them to.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

I never know exactly what to do in those situations. Usually I end up talking to my own child because he wants to know why so-and-so is so upset or why so-and-so's mommy is so angry. In circumstances where there isn't an immediate situation, I try to do as mamaduck suggests - bring to light the positives in the behavior.

There is one woman I know who speaks very frankly and very loudly about her five-year-old child's "horrible" behavior right in front of her child. Her child is very... energetic







and the mother (from what I've seen) is sometimes very passive and then sometimes very punitive. It's uncomfortable all around when she goes on about her child - I think it must be particularly hard for the child. I always try to make a positive comment or offhandedly remark (in as empathetic a manner as I can muster) what I sometimes do with ds in those situations. My remarks seem to be met with defensiveness, though. Truthfully, I think some people thrive on this sort of negativity and don't like to be shown another way. Never hurts to try, though.


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Just want to pipe up here as another "non-gd" mom. I agree with what Penalt said wholeheartedly. It is soooooo important to *support* the parent. Everybody struggles and everyone is coming from a different place, each with his or her own background, experiences, education, skill sets, etc. It's also important to remember that some children *are* harder than others. I am not saying that to demean the parenting of parents with easy children. I know people work very hard at parenting no matter the personality of the child, but it is demeaning to parents of difficult children to insinuate that the problems all stem from the parent's discipline style. It is also frustrating and demoralizing. These types of threads always get my goat. I know people are simply wanting to share something they feel is wonderful and is working for them and I think it is great that it is. I think it's great that you wish everybody knew about it. OTOH, though, it can come across as rather evangelical, iykwim. It feels rather condescending.

As someone who has been unable to access the wonders of gentle discpline it can be infuriating to know that people are contemplating how to "get through" to me. You need to meet people where they are and go from there. Live your values. Let others see what you are doing and how it works for you. That is the loudest, clearest, unambiguous message you can send. *Show* how it works.


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

If y'all are "non gd-ers", why are you here?


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *girlndocs*
If y'all are "non gd-ers", why are you here?









Maybe they're interested in learning more about GD? I suppose most of us were non-GDers at one time, I know I was! They certainly weren't being rude or promoting non-GD things, just adding perspective. I know I lurk in forums I'm not actively involved in sometimes...why not, and why not be exposed to something new/different? They aren't posting anti-GD stuff, what's the prob? Plus, the title of the thread basically asks for non-GDers to open it, don't you think?


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

There are a million different ways to practice GD. There are also many degrees of "GDness" along the spectrum. I honestly believe that GD can work with every child, it's just a matter of finding out how to make it fit with your family. I just don't agree that there are some children out there who "need" to be punished, spanked, etc. If you choose not to use GD, that is OK, but I don't think it's fair to say you "can't".

Back to the OP: I usually just try to let my own actions speak for themselves. I love mamaduck's idea of speaking for the child, though. I think a lot of the time parents react harshly it's exactly for that reason, they aren't seeing the situation from their child's perspective.


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

Hey, canadiyank, I didn't think about the thread title :LOL It just seemed funny to me, like, well, I'm not a "gd-er" (sounding like they don't aspire to be, either) but I'm hanging around here ... yk? Totally didn't think of the thread title lassoing someone in tho.


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *girlndocs*
Hey, canadiyank, I didn't think about the thread title :LOL It just seemed funny to me, like, well, I'm not a "gd-er" (sounding like they don't aspire to be, either) but I'm hanging around here ... yk? Totally didn't think of the thread title lassoing someone in tho.

I knew what you meant, sweetie. But I just think we need to be careful here not to imply that, well, if you're not GD you shouldn't hang out here, KWIM? I know that's not what you meant but that *has* come across here in this forum.

OTOH, I do appreciate the firm policies as far as discussions promoting spanking etc. I do *not* want to come here and defend my practices. But nor should we turn away honest seekers or polite disagree-ers, IMO.


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## Penalt (Jan 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *girlndocs*
If y'all are "non gd-ers", why are you here?









Due to the policies of MDC I cannot discuss that as it pertains to GD. A question was asked. I hope I have been able to help by giving another perspective on the thread topic.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I feel very uncomfortable with the suggestion that we use GD because "_it works"_ or that we promote GD because of the wonderful _"results."_ I mean, I guess I can't speak for everyone.... but there are plenty of methods that "work" and plenty of things I could do that would solicite fabulous "results." But whether it works or not, I am interested in promoting GD because people (children) are deserving and needy of respectful and gentle treatment. And people (parents) are responsible to behave toward their children with a level of humanity. I think those of us who promote GD define "humane treatment" more rigourously than most people when it comes to childrearing. We believe that we must be very careful not to abuse our power as parents when it comes to the methods we employ in discipline.

I'm trying to say that its not just about what "works," though we certainly do brainstorm for effective ideas. But in a more overriding way -- GD is about ethics.

Of course I believe in lending support to non-GD parents, and I value the input of everyone who has posted to this thread. But please don't forget -- most of us *know* already what it feels like to be on the "other side" because we have been there. For myself, I think back to the comments that gently pursuaded me toward GD, and I employ those types of comments with others.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I guess part of this is definitional, but since I am both very strict and GD, I always wonder about those who do not consider themselves GD.

Now by GD I mean: not punishing and using logical consequence only on a limited basis (to protect someone else's person or property).

I don't mean having to work out a compromise or neotiate with your child which to me is really more about the AP part of this then the GD.

Unless a child has some overriding issue, I just don't understand why once people were aware of GD, they wouldn't want to do it. Guess its not that simple though.


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

No, it is not simple. I check out several forums and while I did not say in my previous post that I aspire to be a gentle disciplinarian it is not fair to assume that I do not. Of course I come here to get ideas. I also did not say that I "can't" discipline gently, or even that I won't or don't want to. I do so whenever I can, but I have my moments when I can not get it to "work." And here I have to disagree with MamaDuck that results do not matter. I think it is extremely important to teach a child to behave in a socially acceptable manner. They have got to be able to be around other people, interact with them, and basically be a part of society.

I was raised by parents who loved me and wanted the best for me, but they were not gentle disciplinarians and had their moments as well. I do not have all the skills I need yet to effectively discipline gently. I'm slowly, very slowly acquiring them. While I realize that I cannot make excuses for myself in not treating my children respectfully and with dignity, please also note that I am going it alone. I work full time, go to school full time, run the house and raise two children by myself. I get a little short on time, energy, patience, humor, creativity, sleep, etc. Those things do play into how able I am to be gentle. I will also say that I struggled for four years with my oldest to gd, but I wound up with a child nobody could stand being around, so I gave up to a degree. I know it's the right thing to do, though, the right way to treat another human being, so I keep trying, keep coming back to this forum, mostly to lurk, hoping something will make a light go on for me.

The title of the thread did get my attention. She asked what to say to non-gders and I am giving an answer to that question from my perspective. If it is the right thing to do to treat children with the respect and dignity they deserve because they are human beings, then it is also the right thing to do for "non gd-ers," imperfect human beings though they are. If someone were to come up to me while I was having a difficult time in public and say something like "So, is that working for you?" it would simply infuriate me and send me deeper into that difficult place where I am seeing, hearing, and feeling only myself and my own pity party. OTOH, if someone sincerely sympathizes with me and says something along the lines "It can be so hard" and I can tell they are sympathizing with *both* my child and myself, and the human condition, then I can "snap out of it" and tend to my children rather than being sucked into the vacuum of my own negativity. Comments such as "What a bright/expressive/vivacious child" are also helpful because then I feel that my parenting is not being judged. When that happens I feel free to handle my children appropriately. I know that sounds awful, but I am seriously handicapped by what "they" think. I really wish I could shake it. It has gotten better with the second child, but it is still there. I was also having a *really* hard time with people not liking my dd. I felt like I was doing her a disservice if I did not teach her how to behave.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

And here I have to disagree with MamaDuck that results do not matter
.

I definately did not say this -- and I definately went to great lengths to *avoid* saying this. What I am getting at is not enough to claim that its best to do _"what works for us...._" If "what works" were the only criteria -- people would routinely do much worse to their children than they already do.

I've followed your journey to some extent Sophiamom, and I admire your tenacity, your honesty and your extrodinary efforts.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

Unless a child has some overriding issue, I just don't understand why once people were aware of GD, they wouldn't want to do it. Guess its not that simple though.
Hm. I also don't think its this simple. GD is a hell of a lot of work, and there is not a heck of a lot of support out there for many of us. But I also feel a sense of incredulousness when someone names themself as a "non-GD parent." What does that mean? That you are not gentle with your children? I guess deep down I hope and wish that everyone at least *strives* for gentleness with their children. Thats probably pretty pollyanna of me though.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I have a hard time knowing what to say to people as well. A lot of times when I'm out and see a parent and child in a struggle the parent gives me an apologetic look as if she is ashamed or embarrassed by her child's behavior. I wish I could think of something witty to say to let her know that I empathize. I usually just smile. Yesterday I was taking my ds and two of his friends to the movies. One of the moms, whom I had never met before, told me that if her son misbehaved that I should feel free to whack him upside the head. She was giving a complete stranger permission to hit her child! How do you respond to something like that?


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck*
But I also feel a sense of incredulousness when someone names themself as a "non-GD parent." What does that mean? That you are not gentle with your children?

I wonder about that, too. Someone here who identified herself as not GD (I can't remember who now) went on to talk about how important it is to respect your children just like you would anyone else. Wouldn't that be GD? Maybe they just don't understand what GD is and think it means letting the children "run the show".


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Mamaduck, I still have not figured out how to use quotes, it would be so much clearer for me to respond to you. Thank you for explaining what you meant. I thought you were saying that we should discipline gently even if it doesn't work, because it is the only right way, and that how one defines "doesn't work" is the actual problem. I often feel that I am not patient enough to see the results of gentle discipline. The repetitiveness of doing and saying the same thing over and over and not getting through to the child and having to endure snide comments from others, particularly family members, is what makes me give up on disciplining gently. I feel that it is not working and so should try something else. And in all honestly I have seen results from using non gentle methods. And I now have a child I can leave in others care, and that people like being around. And I like being around her more now, too. And, yes, I realize that I am possibly creating negative long term consequences, and is why I am still trying to learn to be a gentle discplinarian.

And yes, when I call myself "non gd" it is because I am not always gentle with my children. Sorry to burst your bubble! I'm far from perfect. I am prone to loss of temper, yelling, and I don't know if I am allowed to mention... I cannot honestly say that I discipline gently, because I don't. With my first I used redirection, offering limited choices, natural and logical consequences, said things like "Not for Sophia, you can have x", limited rules, didn't use time outs and so on. And like I said before, I had a child whom others did not like or care to be around. That is so, so sad, I cannot even begin to tell you how that feels. I'm not going to try to discuss my discipline methods, because I don't want to go there.

What I find so dismaying is hints of "holier than thou" attitude, the inability to empathize with how a mother could feel anger toward a child, the being appalled that she could possibly not be gentle, the sympathy only for the child and the child's point of view. I think that gets a lot of folks in trouble. Not being able to admit to the dark side, and therefore not being able to get help.

P.S. Marinewife, what I was saying was that people who believe that children should be disciplined/treated gently (gd-ers), should extend those beliefs to *all* people, including "non-gd-ers"

P.P.S mamaduck, thanks for noticing


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## Penalt (Jan 28, 2004)

What she said.......


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

and I agree.

The hardest part about parenting one's children is making everyone happy about how you are parenting them.

And you know what - you can't make everyone happy.

So long as your children don't turn out to be axe murderers, how you discipline them isn't the issue. If you give them the roots they need to grow and the wings to fly, they will be productive people.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamid*
So long as your children don't turn out to be axe murderers, how you discipline them isn't the issue.

I feel comfortable assuming that you're being at least mildly facetious here. If you're serious, that sets the bar pretty low. Not being an axe murderer is a great start, but I want a heck of a lot more for my child.

Quote:

If you give them the roots they need to grow and the wings to fly, they will be productive people.
Productive people aren't always healthy. My hope for my child is that he grows into an emotionally healthy, compassionate person. Productivity is a tiny piece of the big picture of qualities I hope my child will have when he is grown.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Penalt*
Empathy, respect and logic are the keys to communicating any viewpoint in a manner that will encourage the other person to first internalize your words and then, hopefully, come to understand your viewpoint. After that it becomes far, far easier to have them change in the manner you wish them to.


This was the post I was thinking of. If you understand this and use it in your nteractions, I assume that includes your children, and wouldn't that be GD? Or, is this only reserved for other adults?


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

And yes, when I call myself "non gd" it is because I am not always gentle with my children. Sorry to burst your bubble! I'm far from perfect. I am prone to loss of temper, yelling, and I don't know if I am allowed to mention... I cannot honestly say that I discipline gently, because I don't.
Sophiamomma --- Do you think all of us never yell, never loose our tempers, never do things we regret? You have to know us better than that by now. There is a big difference between breaking under stress, and a parent asserting that s/he is entitled to scream, yell, berate, and punish a child. I've never ever seen you try to justify "loosing it" or claim that its best for your kid. All of us are doing only the best we can and no more than that -- and our kids know best of all that we are only human. Its more about what we strive for and what we hold as ideal. I think you are harder on yourself than you need to be -- my gut tells me you are a gentle and consciensious mamma.

Quote:

With my first I used redirection, offering limited choices, natural and logical consequences, said things like "Not for Sophia, you can have x", limited rules, didn't use time outs and so on. And like I said before, I had a child whom others did not like or care to be around. That is so, so sad, I cannot even begin to tell you how that feels.
Is it at all possible that this is about her personality and not about your discipline style? Is it possible that your child would struggle behaviorwise no matter what you tried?

I also have an idea that she's going to be a hell of a woman someday. I'm not just trying to fake people out when I point out that their child's obnoxious behaviors are exactly those characteristics that will make them dynamic and exceptional men and women who will shake the world up in a good way.


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Someone once told me that if a vegetarian eats meat every once in awhile that s/he is still a vegetarian because it is what s/he does most of the time that counts. Hmmmmm. Maybe you are right and that is true of gentle discipline as well. I just wanted to let folks who have used only gentle discpline with their young toddlers know my perspective.

IRL, gentle is probably high on the list, if not one of the first words others use to describe me. Calm is another. The problem with those characteristics, at least in my case, is that they lead to "bottling", which leads to blowing up!

My older dd's personality has *everything* to do with how responsive she is to discipline. That's why I mentioned in an earlier post about some kids being harder. Her little sister is certainly easier, but still pretty spunky herself. This aspect about my older one's personality is my personal sticking point. People say that there is no such thing as a child who needs to be punished. Maybe so, but mine is one of the ones that people who believe that kids sometimes need negative consequences are talking about.

She *is* going to be a hell of a woman and I am very glad there are people like you out there pointing these characteristics out to parents. I sometimes say things along those lines in my moments of clarity to others who are being critcal of dd1.

P.S. Yes, judging only from what people post and how shocked and appalled they sometimes sound about what other parents do, I think there are folks out there who are not losing it, and never yell or spank. There is almost always a thread along the lines "Can you believe how awful some parents are? I saw such and such at the mall/museum/store" and there are pages full of folks chiming in to berate the bad parent.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

Someone once told me that if a vegetarian eats meat every once in awhile that s/he is still a vegetarian because it is what s/he does most of the time that counts. Hmmmmm. Maybe you are right and that is true of gentle discipline as well. I just wanted to let folks who have used only gentle discpline with their young toddlers know my perspective.
I really don't know if this analogy fits perfectly. If it does, then I am not a gentle parent either, because sometimes I "loose it." Sometimes I feel like we forget that we as parents are allowed to express our feelings too. We are -- we should be modelling constructive ways to do so, but we should be expressing our feelings.

Anyway, I think choosing GD means choosing a philosophy and then trying to adhere to it, even though we know we will fail sometimes. We are not set up to succeed with GD in our culture. Without the support we need --- we are all going to fail sometimes. Is a vegetarian still a vegetarian if there are people sabatoging her at every turn? What if she goes 5 straight days with no other food available and finally breaks down and eats a chicken breast? Okay, maybe I'm taking this too far....









Quote:

I sometimes say things along those lines in my moments of clarity to others who are being critcal of dd1.
The more I hear from you, the more I wonder if you are surrounded by the *wrong* people! I could not have succeeded with GD if it were not for about 2 people in my life who support my efforts whole-heartedly.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

am i GD? absolutely. do i always do it right? absolutely not. are my intentions always good? absolutely. am i always patient and non-punitive? absolutely not.

i think that being GD is really more the way you approach your parenting...it's a given that we won't always be perfect, but at least we have decided to approach difficult situations in non-punitive ways.

it sounds to me that that definition describes you, Sofiamomma...


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

I just want to say that I totally see a huge difference between someone frequenting the GD forum because they're wanting to learn & aspiring to improve (that would be yours truly, too, sofiamomma!) and somebody frequenting the GD forum constantly interjecting that "whatever works, works", "GD doesn't work for everybody", "some kids just need more" and so on. In fact I have a hard time seeing how the latter would fit in under the UA.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *girlndocs*
I just want to say that I totally see a huge difference between someone frequenting the GD forum because they're wanting to learn & aspiring to improve (that would be yours truly, too, sofiamomma!) and somebody frequenting the GD forum constantly interjecting that "whatever works, works", "GD doesn't work for everybody", "some kids just need more" and so on. In fact I have a hard time seeing how the latter would fit in under the UA.


I agree with you up to a point. But the OP was "what do you say to non-gd'rs." So a non-GD perspective was appropriate and responses as to why were appropriate. Like I would never post in certain forums (vax, circumcision) advocating what I did, but if someone was looking for what to say to someone who did something different, I might post my thoughts.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I was going to come on here and say something about how we are all human and all lose our tempers sometimes and can't always be in complete, calm control but I see so many have already beaten me to it.

Sofiamom, I agree that you need to give yourself a break. I bet you are doing a lot better than you think.

I think the OP was thinking of people who purposely and routinely use punishment as their first and only response to supposed "bad" behavior in their children, like the woman who gave me permission to hit her 10yo son and then proceeded to tell him that if he misbehaved she would beat him into tomorrow.


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Sophiamom...you sound a lot genteler than you seem to think you are...
What bothers GDers is parents that are automatically cruel to their kids...and feel entitled as "the parent" to treat their kids however they choose for whatever reason...
The "Can you believe how awful this mom was" threads are usually citing pretty extreme examples...and maybe there is a holier-than-thou tone, but it's just that moms that are trying soooo hard to understand things from their child's perspective and treat them kindly are a little appaled when witnessing the polar opposite mentality...it's like culture shock or something...
But, yes....I for one totally hear you about the hypocricy of a GDer snottily preaching to a struggeling mom.
The purpose of GD is to internalize the concepts of right and wrong...it's a path for parent and child both...and much of the purpose is lost if Mom A is condecending to Mom B about her parenting style...
Just my opinion...


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## kathipaul (Sep 24, 2004)

Wow! My little question has turned into a big debate. It has been fascinating following all the comments. I think I was originally intending to find out how people who practice GD react to those who do not, not the other way around, but hey, the "others" are free to express their opinions also. For me, it is kind of hard at times to be around very vocal non-gd-ers and non-gd-ers who practice loud and agressive and sometimes violent discipline. I mean spanking or hitting in public, making threats of more hitting, time-outs and other punishment that are demeaning, etc. It has been very helpful to read all the responses here. I hope this thread continues and I hope more poeple consider trying GD.

Kathy


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## chow46 (Aug 21, 2004)

If I'm ever in a direct conversation with another mom who says she uses negative discipline, I usually say, "Oh really? What I have to do with ds is..." then give her an example of positive discipline. I sometimes point out that I was like that and have recently changed to GD and can't believe the changes. It seems to me the women I'm around are looking for answers in the discipline area and as long as I'm not judgemental in my attitude, they will listen with an open mind and probably apply it. I mean, not always the case but if I can get one mom to even try it, I've helped a little, ya know?


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

you know, i think that a lot of people just don't know that GD is a viable option that "works", kwim? i mean who doesn't want to be nice to their kids? who doesn't want to have a great relationship with them that doesn't involve fear? i think the differences is that people who don't practice GD are afraid that GD doesn't "work" - meaning, that you can't raise a well behaved child if you do it that way. i know that's how i felt...i knew i wanted to do GD from day one, but i was also pretty convinced that i'd have a child that walked all over me. it was just worth it to me in my head because i couldn't bear the alternative. now i'm happy to know i can have it both ways.









so i think that just pointing out your own strategies and sharing how/why they worked might enlighten some people...even if they don't change their ways entirely, maybe the next time their child "acts out" they'll try something you suggested and that's always a good thing.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I also think there are some parents who value their status as "top dogs" in the family, and are not willing to make the sacrifices involved in practising a more egalitarian methodology. They feel entitled to say jump, and darn well expect that their kids are going to jump. The feel entitled to be left alone, to sleep all night, to see their kids quietly and submissively eat what is put in front of them... and they convince themselves this is whats best for the kids as well. Similar to any relationship where the weaker party is oppressed. Its easy to keep making excuses to preserve a privlaged status.

Makes me sad to admit that though.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

yeah...i agree with you on that too, mamaduck. unfortunately.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck*
I also think there are some parents who value their status as "top dogs" in the family, and are not willing to make the sacrifices involved in practising a more egalitarian methodology. They feel entitled to say jump, and darn well expect that their kids are going to jump. The feel entitled to be left alone, to sleep all night, to see their kids quietly and submissively eat what is put in front of them... and they convince themselves this is whats best for the kids as well. Similar to any relationship where the weaker party is oppressed. Its easy to keep making excuses to preserve a privlaged status.

Makes me sad to admit that though.


I personally do not believe in an egalitarian family structure. Yet I consider myself GD. Why? I don't punish my kids. I use only natural/logical consequences and only to protect the person/property of others.

What I find intersting is people who think there is NO middle ground. That if you don't believe in an egaliatarian structure, you must punish. That having rules mean that they MUST be enforced by punishment.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

What I find intersting is people who think there is NO middle ground. That if you don't believe in an egaliatarian structure, you must punish. That having rules mean that they MUST be enforced by punishment.
Yes, I was referring to parents who are willing to go as far as physical punishment in order to preserve their dominance in the family. And use it *primarily* for this reason, and not so much to teach lessons about responsibility, etc.... Bullies, essentially, though they wouldn't admit it.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I know many people are going to HATE this analogy but....To me, its like being a boss at a workplace where the employees have to stay. Yes, you can be abusive, but that is wrong. It immoral. You do have power, you do need to lead, but doing so with force is wrong and does not work out the best besides.

I do have many rules in my house. I "enforce" them by stating them or expressing (calmly) my disaproval when they are not met.

As my kids get older, I believe that the structure does become "more" egalitatian.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

I know many people are going to HATE this analogy but....To me, its like being a boss at a workplace where the employees have to stay. Yes, you can be abusive, but that is wrong. It immoral. You do have power, you do need to lead, but doing so with force is wrong and does not work out the best besides.
Hmm. Interesting. The analogy that I think suits my family is different. I see us somewhat like a group of students and professors. DH and I being the professors. We do have authority, but it is the sort of authority that is the result of knowlege. We are "authorities on life" compared to our inexperienced students. The power that we have is power they give us because they trust us, and *want* to learn from us. They give us the power to teach and lead them, and they contribute to our joint work as students. As good teachers, we give them as much ownership and power over their work as they can handle, and we allow mistakes as part of the learning process. Every new and unexpected turn in our "research" becomes an opportunity to learn together. And of course, it would be unheard of for a professor to physcially punish a student. And even other forms of punishment would be innapropriate. We give feedback and guidance where needed.


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## kathipaul (Sep 24, 2004)

We had a conversation at our co-op preschool yesterday about child development and I was amazed how the non-gd-ers seem to not know a lot about child development. (I am not making a blanket statement, just talking about three women I know.) I wonder if that has something to do with it? Perhaps if more moms and dads understood what is really going on inside a little mind, they would be able to use less coercive discpline tactics. Just a thought......

Kathy


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

ITA, kathipaul! It's impossible to be a gentle parent without a good understanding of child development. Most harsh discipline I witness is often in response to normal childish behavior. People either expect their children to be perfect and take every misbehavior as a personal affront, or they have expectations that are way above the child's abilities and express their fear that something might be "wrong" as anger directed at the child.


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## Penalt (Jan 28, 2004)

Originally Posted by Penalt
Empathy, respect and logic are the keys to communicating any viewpoint in a manner that will encourage the other person to first internalize your words and then, hopefully, come to understand your viewpoint. After that it becomes far, far easier to have them change in the manner you wish them to.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
This was the post I was thinking of. If you understand this and use it in your nteractions, I assume that includes your children, and wouldn't that be GD? Or, is this only reserved for other adults?

I have found that many people who profess to use GD only use the above when dealing with children, not with adults. Which is sad considering that its the adults who discipline the children, not vice versa.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

This is a wonderful thread and nice to get the non-gder point of view.

I have encountered negative reaction to the way I discipline with my kids and what I have found is that when I encounter a mom who is not gd or struggling with discipline, doing things that don't work I say "I have found that doing that just doesn't work(spanking, time outs etc) so now I do xyz and it works perfectly" I also compliment the child...wow, what a wonderfully energetic child or She really knows her own mind doesn't she, turning what seems like a negative trait at 2 or 3 into a positive one in the mom's eye. Unless a parent is really abusing a child I try to just let them know what I found works. And I am quickly to point out that it takes more work, takes longer but works better in the end.

Now I have 2 older children who are by no means perfect but they are pretty darn good kids and we talk about things..and people say "how do you keep them out of trouble" and I say we were gentle with them when they were children, we talk openly about everything, drugs, sex etc. and explain the consequenses and we have boundaries. My oldest had a struggle a few weeks ago but we got through it. She knows we love her and want the best for her. We don't punish.

With my toddler I am even more gd than I was with the first two mainly because my husband now is more on board(it's so hard when the other parent does things differently). But we are not permissive, we still have boundaries. Eventually she will figure out what they are.

I just find that most people see us with our daughter and want to be like that...I have a friend who has a son...she sees me with Sophia and models what I do with her son. She was slapping his hands and said he was picky and I said they are all generally picky, it's natural curiousity and he is too young to understand not to do it and have impulse control at that age...put your stuff up and redirect and later he will learn. So she did. She was doing what she was told to do by her mother and husband and then she saw what I was doing and the thought my way "felt" better.

I am very gentle with adults I encounter. I want my daughters to see how to interact with other people not just with her family. I model the behaviour I want them to have.

I like the professor/student analogy...


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