# International Mamas share with us what freedoms you have!



## Arduinna

Since so many keep posting about the "unique" freedoms that Americans enjoy, international mamas and papas please enlighten us to the freedoms you enjoy in your countries.


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## El Casey S

1.) The freedom to have really good political discussions with well informed people, without anyone getting really mad and calling names.

2.) The freedom to have an opposing political view and it not effect your job. (Have relatives in a southern state who don't dare put democratic candidates on their bumper stickers for fear of losing clients.)

3.) All the same freedoms of the US +

4.) The freedom of experiencing so many fascinating cultures in a relatively small area.

5.) Freedom of many political parties (parlamentary system is much more democratic!) to chose from.

6.) Freedom to nurse in public, not to circumsize, to use homeopathic cures without having to deal with someone's fear and ignorance and a long list of freedoms relating to child care.

7.) Freedom to go to some dive and expect really good food.

8.) Freedom to have a fantastic choice of entertainment everyday (I live in Berlin)!!

9.) Freedom to see films and hear music in foreign languages that will never be seen or heard in the US!!

10.) (from DH) The freedom to have really good beers!

Added after reading the post after mine:
ALL people in Germany have access to affordable health care.


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## lilirose

sorry, having to remove all posts with personal info due to an online stalker.


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## simonee

In the Netherlands, I DON'T have the freedom to:

* buy a gun and carry it around. Guns are illegal, even most cops are unarmed.

* circumsize my male children and have the state pay for it. The state pays all our medical needs, but not elective amputation.

* have people sent to their deaths for crime. No death penalty. Not "even" for minors.

* buy elections. Not even if I'm a big moviestar with a funny accent.

* hire employees without giving them medical, vacation and other benefits.

* have minors sent to war before they are allowed to buy a beer to "celebrate"

* write off all my expenses if I'm rich. So I'm very unlikely to become a millionnaire. Then again, I'm also very unlikely to end up in a cardboard box on a park bench.

However, I can buy everything I need in non-corporate stores, my children can safely go anywhere on a bicycle because bikes have separate lanes everywhere, I can and am expected to vbac, go to a doctor when I need one and get the treatment I need (a year ago, dh had to go to the ER twice with what they considered a mystery ailment "or maybe trush" for what turned out to be gallstones ~ how uncommon can that be???), send my children to virtually any school I like without having to pay for it. If I buy a bigger car, I will also have to pay more taxes for it.

I can choose what papers to read and they won't all be owned by the same two millionaires, the parliamentary system allows me to choose between more than 2 very similar candidates. I get paid vacations every year, even if I'm on welfare. I can smoke or eat pot if I want to, and if I'm gay my partner will be considered exactly that by the state (we can marry if we want to). All women have abortion rights, but few use them because b/c is (still?) free and children are educated about sexual matters in school. University education is affordable. My midwife will suggest that I breastfeed, but probably not for an extended period of time. If I am very ill and won't get better, I have the freedom to end my life in a manner I see fit.

I can travel anywhere in the world without having to feel fear about being hated just because my president can't keep himself from proving to the whole world how friggin powerful he is.

I have the freedom to criticize my country's government and not be told to love or leave it. Having the mental wherewithall to articulate criticism is not considered unpatriotic here.

Though I wouldn't mind a few WAHMs here, and a bit more sunshine


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## Arduinna

Thanks you guys! I loved your posts, and can't wait to hear from some of our Canadian friends too (and all other Internationals, Hilary??).

Just got off the phone with dh where we again discussed moving out of the country.


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## El Casey S

(((Simonee)))


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## PinkSunfish

All the same freedoms as in the USA +

Freedom from guns. There is some gun crime here but your average bobby on the beat is unarmed and so is your average criminal.

Freedom of speech. It is not considered unpatriotic to critisise the way the government is doing things especially as regards the "war" on terror. I do not feel free to speak my mind while I am in the US.

Freedom from institutionally corrupt politics (you cannot give unlimited contributions to political parties or pay for questions to be asked in parliment without retribution).

Freedom from the religious right - fanatical groups do not have the power to sway politics

Not that the UK has it all 100% brilliant of course but although I love to visit America and many many Americans are lovely people I could not live there.


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## guestmama9906

Quote:

_Originally posted by El Casey S_
*

7.) Freedom to go to some dive and expect really good food.

*
That's clinched it. I'm packing up and moving over!


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## MamaSoleil

In Canada we have:

The right to bf anywhere.
The right to free health care.
The freedom to leave our homes unlocked.
The freedom to not vaccinate.
The choice of many political parties (also the parlamentary system here too)
The right to a year of paid maternity leave, soon to be two years.
Amazing community programs, including free post secondary education for single moms under 28 yrs of age.
The freedom to speak our minds and not worry about being assaulted (for the most part)
The peace of mind of walking around and feeling safe.
The freedom of owning lots and lots of land for fairly cheap prices.
No death penalty.
Free legal aid.
So much more, but I'm drawing a blank....

Mamasoleil/samson


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## MamaOui

Quote:

have the freedom to criticize my country's government and not be told to love or leave it. Having the mental wherewithall to articulate criticism is not considered unpatriotic here.
Gee Simonee, that must be refreshing. Speaking as an American living in America, I truly can't stand the phrase "Love it or leave it".


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## sohj

MamaOui: There's another saying which I (fortunately) haven't heard in a really long time, but it keeps popping into my head over the last few years: "If you're so smart, why ain't you rich?"

I used to see that on the register in a diner my father and I would stop in occasionally while on the road in Wisconsin in the 70's. It looked pretty old and tattered at the time. I never saw anything remotely like it when living abroad.


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## Arduinna

: how any of that is on topic for this thread is beyond me


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## PinkSunfish

I have to say Nursing Mother (and I am not pointing a finger at you here) that over and over I see Americans referring to their "unique" freedoms and it is very annoying to those of us who also feel fortunate to live in countries with the same freedoms.

To us it perpetuates the international view that Americans are (wilfully) unaware of the world outside their borders.

---------------------------

To my above post I would like to add the National Health Service, one, the institution of the UK of which I am most proud.


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## untomySelf

simonee I love the Netherlands

I love Europe

Ive lived in AMerica for 4 years but Im in Australia now, my native country

I love that women with children, especially single women, can stay with their children and get paid to do so.

I love that my child can be naked on beaches and at home without worrying about CPS arresting me.

I also love that there is no dubbing of words like F***, sh!t and the like on TV

I like that I dont have to be bombarded by ads telling me how to numb my pain, grief or headaches by drugging me up

I like that my half African American child doesnt have any racial slanderous attitudes to worry about here

I love that if I ever choose schooling as an option (not likely but still) I wont feel terrified of the things I watched my stepsons go through in their schools.

As much as I hear complaints about the medical issues here, I love that I can get quality health care without paying for it through the nose

I love that car insurance is so minimal and affordable

I love hearing no worries mate and fair enough every day. It was tiring watching my back and mouth in the States.

I love that working class exists here


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## DaryLLL

Northern European mamas have the freedom and privilege to birth healthfully. Darn that socialist health care and legal midwifery! Look at the rates of deaths per 1000 births.

http://www.bartleby.com/151/a28.html

Finland-- 3.76

Sweden-- 3.44

Norway-- 3.9

Netherlands-- 4.31

UK-- 5.45

France-- 4.41

Italy-- 5.76

Ireland-- 5.43

and Australia-- 4.9

US-- 6.69

Afghanistan-- 144.76!!!


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## Marg of Arabia

SvadhisthanaMama! Great thread!! THANK YOU FOR STARTING IT!!

El Casey S ~ lilirose~ simonee~ PinkSunfish ~ untomySelf ~DaryLLL~ mamasoleil.............................

Thank you for sharing your experiences here. .














More Americans should be making an effort to understand how other humans live in the world!

marg


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## El Casey S

Germany - 4.65 per 1,000

(just wanted to see where it ranks!)

BTW - Dh asked me to write, "The US is a great place if you're rich!"

(Moving this to it's proper place in the America thread)


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## Ilaria

Quote:

I see Americans referring to their "unique" freedoms and it is very annoying to those of us who also feel fortunate to live in countries with the same freedoms.
That is so true and so annoying! I hear it all the time, about freedom in the USA...whatever...as if Italy didn't have any freedoms







:

Since it's part of Europe, we share the same freedoms, so I will mostly be redundant:

- We are free from the health care and medicine business. Pharmaceutical companies cannot advertise, and EVERY citizen has affordable health care.

- We have the right to accurate food labeling is very strict. GMOs contents must be on everything and as for meat, labels tell you specifically where the cow came from (down to the pasture)

-Freedom from oil dependence: public transportation is efficient and everywhere, same for the railway system and gas is taxed really high and is REALLY expensive. You think twice before using your car.

-Freedom to choose from may parties.

- Freedom from work-aholism: long vacations, paid leaves to be with your family.

- Freedom to be topless on (most) beaches and to view the human body as natural...on tv, ads, in the home, on beaches and parks...naked children are totally normal... (and of course, we don't cut boys' penises!)

- Freedom from the death penalty

-Stolen from MamaOui: !

Quote:

have the freedom to criticize my country's government and not be told to love or leave it. Having the mental wherewithall to articulate criticism is not considered unpatriotic here.
- Freedom to buy wine and beer for our parents, without anyone thinking it's 'party time'

- We DON'T have the 'freedom' to carry guns.

Quote:

Dh asked me to write, "The US is a great place if you're rich!"
That's funny, my dad has always said that


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## OdessaEarthenMama

I've really enjoyed reading all your posts, they are wonderful. I had a friend a few years ago move to New Zeland, and I enjoy hearing from her, some things are better there & some are worse she says.


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## Ilaria

It's not just talking about "virtues and appreciations ", many Americans actually DO think that the America is 'the' land of the free and assume all others countries have some kind of oppressive government.
Then again, most Americans have not traveled abroad, know little about geography (yes, a generalization but supported by how US teens rank in the subject against other nationalities) and could care less about how other countries are.

I teach college students and I see everyday, firsthand.


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## El Casey S

There are some other things I really like about living in Europe, I'm not sure you could call them freedoms - and they are things one could never find in the US - and they are hard to name. There is something almost mystical about living somewhere where there is such a rich long history. It is a sense of security(?) - an sense of awe(?) - a sense of maturity(?) - I don't know how to phrase it. That is why I am soooo disgusted - appalled - shocked - enraged - when I hear some ignoramus who thinks that the US is the best of all worlds, especially if they've never been out of their walls except for maybe mini trips to some developing country in order to make themselves feel better. There are so many countries that have been through so much, and have come to a place where they can offer a wonderful life to their people - richer than what money can buy - and the US fluff propaganda comes and gears the minds towards the lowest human levels - greed, desire, laziness, revenge.

There is such a desire to be rich in the US because that is the only way they could possibly really be free. NOT being rich in the US means:
- not being able to HAVE TIME to go on vacation, and if you do have the time, where can you go? It costs alot to get anywhere in such a big country.
- not being able to afford to offer your children a good education. US public schools are so varied in what they can offer - if you want to offer your kids a good education - you have to live in a wealthy neighborhood ( a friend of mine lives in a wealthy neighborhood - her son's class trip is to Scotland this year! - can YOUR public school offer that?)
- not being able to have good health care.
- This list could go on and on!

The list could go on and on about what MANY other countries can offer the average citizen, that the US cannot - and the situation is getting worse for the US. BECAUSE so many citizens want to deny that anywhere else in the world could possible be better - so they focus on those few things that they perceive as being better in the US.

I think that is the "purpose" of this thread - to try in some way to get those non-critical thinkers of US culture and policy to see that there are other countries that offer more. That the US IS NOT in any streach of the imagination - the BEST country in the world - and that they too should be fighting to get administrations in public office that do something about getting the US to catch up with the rest of the world in areas other than military strength and self preservation!!! Getting administrations in there that looks reality in the face and work to catch up - not just to fight for power and the right for each American to continue to live in denial that their personal actions don't effect the rest of the world. I could go on - but I've got to go!! Sorry.


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## JessicaS

I have heard that other countries have a wider range of foods availible to them and it is much cheaper.

If I want to buy parmesan argiano it is $14.99 a lb!









So they are more free in their food choices..







(unless we want to pay out the butt)


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## El Casey S

Quote:

_Originally posted by abimommy_
*I have heard that other countries have a wider range of foods availible to them and it is much cheaper.

If I want to buy parmesan argiano it is $14.99 a lb!









So they are more free in their food choices..







(unless we want to pay out the butt)*
America is a great place - if you're rich!


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## slinkypea2

T

Having lived in America all my life and not being rich enuf to afford to go abroad.. I love hearing what you mammas have to say. And alot of it are the stuff that I don't like either, but seeing as all of dh and my family lives here I don't see us picking up and moving to another country. I can only hope that one by one we can raise awareness to the faults that are here and try and change them. Hopefully our "democratic" system can be useful..

that being said I noticed alot of you said guns are illegal.. can u hunt if you want to??? I have grown up in the southern states of america... alot of people in my and dh's family do hunt ... he used to. I don't eat meat too often but when I do I would prefer to have meat without the hormones and with the animal having ate a natural diet... hard to get that in the stores here! at least without paying an arm and a leg for "organic"

I would love not to have the violence associated with guns, but I know here that is one of the issues with gun control for people ... they feel they would not be able to provide food for there family ... I know alot who hunt for food not for sport...

just curious but how does this work in other countries??

melissa


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## simonee

There are limited allowances for hunting, including farmers who hunt sometimes. However, the Netherlands doesn't have much nature, let alone animals (we're the densest populated country in the world after Bangladesh, so NM I really DO understand why you'd want to live somewhere roomier even though I believe your children would have received the same or better education here without the big loans), so very few hunting permits are given. As far as I know, only rabbits and sometimes a few deer can be hunted.

But "no guns" for me mostly means no handguns. And in the US, gun control is often focused on urban environments in which small handguns (pistols) or (semi)automatic military guns are used, rather than hunting rifles. I feel that very few gun control advocates consider hunting one of the bigger gun-related evils, but I may be wrong of course.

ps you may want to reconsider how natural the diet of a wild animal was, if that animal drank from polluted streams and ate plants that were fed with polluted water. I bet there's few "clean" animals in Florida, wild or not. But that's a whole different thread


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## Ilaria

Pretty much ditto about hunting. I truly don't know much about guns and laws in Italy and it's not really an issue, but I do know a guy who is a gunter and has a couple of hunting rifles. (You need to take classes and get a permit).

Some cops have guns too.

The average citizen cannot get a gun for the hell of it though.


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## sohj

Adding to the gun part of this thread:

First of all, each country has its own legislation and its own traditions when it comes to its legal system(s).

When I lived in Spain, I was told (no, I didn't go to the library and read the codes, but I am fairly certain that I got accurate information) that if you wanted a handgun, you went to the city police department (Spain has several different police forces, each has different jurisdictions and different histories, some overlap) where you live, filled out an application for a permit, had a background check and then got the permit and bought a gun. Pretty much the same as in a lot of parts of the US. The procedure took longer than it does in the States...it IS Spain, after all.







: (....land of manana....) but it was fundamentally not very different. I knew two people with handguns and a couple of people with shotguns for hunting. I also knew several people who led the kinds of lives where, if they had been in the States, they almost certainly would have owned guns.

The point of this is: You know what? VERY FEW PEOPLE BOUGHT THEM. So, why didn't they take advantage of the "freedom" to own a gun? And this is in a country that had had an oppressive dictatorship that had had a fairly oppressive religious structure there to help him (Francisco Franco "El Caudillo" and his local Vatican Aid Society--- "Opus Dei") Well, after living there for quite sometime, the only conclusion I could come to was that the people weren't afraid. They saw no need for weaponry at home unless they were hunters, etc. and didn't purchase any.

In the States, the freedom to imprison yourself with fear is the most commonly exercised freedom we have.


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## El Casey S

Hunting in Germany is another cultural experience, from what I've been told by a hunting family here. Basically, before you could own a weapon, you have to go through all kinds of training. They can also be part of these nifty groups that wear special clothes, have their little dachshunds and drink brandy in dark rooms afterwards. There is such ritual and respect involved in it! I still can't imagine how one could look at one of God's creatures and then try to kill it - but these hunting groups seem so mystical! They talk about the respect to the animals and killing quickly, and eating the meat - not killing just for the sport. When you walk through these castles, or Jagdhuette (hunting lodges) and see the historical paintings and the ritual of it all - it is almost awesome. Granted in those days they had to kill the animals themselves to eat meat, so it is somehow more gracious to make a spectacle of it.


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## slinkypea2

thanks for your repiles. I was just curious. I really think there should be more training with weapons if you are going to use them here. And the only reason I can see for having a gun would be to hunt. I don't understand why anyone would feel the need to have them for any other purpose.

Like I said before my dad does hunt and he is very cautious and knowledgeable about what he is doing. Him and my dh sound like they have some of the same philosophies as the hunting clubs you mentioned el casey S .

I will say one thing that is crazy here.... Alot of you said that even the police do not carry weapons... My dad is a lifeguard at Daytona bch... He is a captian there... they have made all the higher ranking lifeguards beach cops too... So my dad is on the beach with a gun. it seems crazy to me that on a beach, america feels the need to arm the lifeguards with weapons!!!







:









melissa


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## sohj

Quote:

_Originally posted by slinkypea2_
*So my dad is on the beach with a gun. it seems crazy to me that on a beach, america feels the need to arm the lifeguards with weapons!!!







:









melissa*

I'm







:, too. Lifeguards are supposed to jump into the water and save you, not shoot you. What in blazes is a gun good for on the beach?

And, on a practical note, how the heck does he keep the gun dry?







Put it in a cabinet on the lifeguard tower before jumping in?


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## *LoveBugMama*

As a European, I have the same freedom as the other Europeans here in most cases.

But I thought I would add a few things regarding children here in Norway:

As soon as I get pregnant, all medical care I need during pregnancy is free.

Birth and hospital time after birth (usually 2-4 days) is free.

1 year paid maternity leave for all women.

3 years for single moms.

All medical help for children under the age of 7 years is free.

Dental care is free until 18 years of age.

Noone pays more than 350$ a month for kindergarden.

If you choose to stay home with your child, you get 350$ a month from age 1 to age 3.

All parents get 150$ a month until child is 18 years old. Single parents get twice as much.

A single parent pays a lot less to send child to kindergarden. Less than 150$ a month.

After 3 years paid maternity leave, I can choose to stay home for 2 more years IF I during those 2 years get an education.

Thats all I can think of right now.


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## MamaOui

Ilaria, I was quoting Simonee in my post.

Quote: El Casey S:
"There is such a desire to be rich in the US because that is the only way they could possibly really be free. NOT being rich in the US means:
- not being able to HAVE TIME to go on vacation, and if you do have the time, where can you go? It costs alot to get anywhere in such a big country.
- not being able to afford to offer your children a good education. US public schools are so varied in what they can offer - if you want to offer your kids a good education - you have to live in a wealthy neighborhood ( a friend of mine lives in a wealthy neighborhood - her son's class trip is to Scotland this year! - can YOUR public school offer that?)
- not being able to have good health care.
- This list could go on and on!

The list could go on and on about what MANY other countries can offer the average citizen, that the US cannot - and the situation is getting worse for the US. BECAUSE so many citizens want to deny that anywhere else in the world could possible be better - so they focus on those few things that they perceive as being better in the US."











































El Casey S


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## artemesia

After reading these posts I am so ready to move. The societies seem so much more humane than the policies here, especially for married and single mamas.


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## Arduinna

If the topic is so useless to you, then feel free to scroll on by. The rest of us have been enjoying an on topic discussion here.


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## Britishmum

What a great thread!!

One thing I really find irritating here in the USA is constantly hearing that this is 'the' land of freedom and democracy. There are lots of great things about the USA, but there are other countries that have great freedoms too.

Nowhere is perfect, and Britain has its share of problems, but it also has its wonderful freedoms too. A lot of them have already been mentioned. The NHS has its problems, but honestly, nothing like the US medical system. With insurance, I have to wait far longer for a doctors appt here than I ever had to (for free) in the UK. Here, I have bill after bill after bill for every simple medical procedure, then the hassles of "oh, that doctor is no longer on your plan" so I have to foot the bill.

In the UK, prenatal and postnatal care is totally free for ALL women. And every woman has a midwife, who will come to your house, eg to help with breastfeeding after the birth. Then health visitors to follow up with you afterwards. Awesome!

Then, there's the 'separation' of church and state, This is one thing that soooo bugs me here. There is no 'religious right' or 'moral majority' in the UK. The Church does not get involved in politics, except to sometimes speak out against an injustice. The subject of abortion is not something that comes into every election.

Neither does the Church come up with ways to raise children 'God's way' or recommend circumcision. I love it that I'd never seen a circumcised penis before I came to the USA. I was in total shock when our pediatrician asked us about circumcision. I love it that the British don't habitually mutilate their newborn boys.

Children don't have to chant a pledge to any flag or state in school. (I'm having difficulty over this one here, as I refuse to have my children subjected to such brainwashing, but to find a school that would appreciate this seems impossible, proving that brainwashing citizens works.....)

I could go on, but it's all been said here, and all I'm doing is letting off steam. But it feels gooooooooooood!!


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## El Casey S

NM - I agree that what factors contribute to which country one lives in and is happy in is subjective - but MANY US citizens speak so ignorantly and make blanket statements like, "We're #1!" or try to argue that the US is the greatest land - not knowing other countries and not really knowing the problems the US faces. AND THERE ARE serious problems that the US has had for sometime - and some politicians have seen that for some time and have wanted to do something about it - and other politicians have done everything to hinder that progress - and the average American is so easily manipulated, and votes for someone based on one issue, or votes based on the 5 second soundbite that the big money has forced them to hear insesently - that is why is IS a cop-out!

Comparing can be really bad - like Susie has a pretty dress, mine is less expensive and not so pretty - so I want Susie's dress, too . . . . or Susie is better than I am, what ever. But sometimes one can compare and it is a help - like gee, Susie's Husband does'nt hurt her, and my husband hits me - maybe it's NOT OK for my husband to hit me! And I really think the US is not taking good care of its people (it can only support people who can afford it - or who can struggle to take care of themselves- like you and your DH) - and until more citizen realize this - they won't do anything to get their politicans to change the country.


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## Ilaria

Dh just flew in from London tonight, actually.








He was working in Amsterdam for a week though and can't stop talking about how much he loved it there ...he kept saying Amsterdam is so livable: the canals, the trees, the parks, everyone riding bikes. Funny, he even mentioned that a (Dutch) guy was saying how in the Netherlands most mamas birth at home and how hospitals are reserved for 'problems'...other Americans with him were very surprised...he thought I would appreciate that piece of info.









He also went on and on about going out to dinner and staying in a restaurant for hours, just hanging out (like in Italy), his opinion is that Europeans enjoy life much more.

Although moving to Europe on a temporary assignment IS in our future, it doesn't look like it will be in Amsterdam, much to his dismay...probably Munich. I bet it will be great either way!









Britishmum, I had never seen a cut penis before coming to the USA either. In college, I babysat a little boy and thought there was something medically wrong with him!







Then I started going out with guys and figured it out! :LOL


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## simonee

NM, owning a house in Holland doesn't cost much more than in the US. But more people rent here... yes. Still, where I lived in the US, a 2 br townhouse went for about $300K, half a million if it was new. I knew few people who could have afforded that.

Social security is for everybody, but few people live on it for a long time (and much fewer now than during the "golden" welfare years when you and your dh left). Chooosing to live on welfare suggests attitude problems that not that many people have (and to be fair, these people aren't really what most employers are looking for either).

All schools are public, so you can choose a school. Montessori is public. Waldorf is public. Catholic or Christian is public. If all schools are public, we don't need private schools, I think







:

But true, you can't be a hunter here, really. If I wanted to, I think MOngolia would offer most room. More even than any place in the US. Or Canada, another vestige of nasty social policies, of course









Edited to add: I love the US, a lot. It's no secret that I left my heart in California ~ I just can't get over the light and the space. Still, I don't think that that means that other places have things that would make the US a better place.

Actually, my main grief is that Americans often consider their country the best in the world, and that they're taught to do so. As far as I know, nobody else in the world thinks that. People love their countries, sure, but the best.... No.... How can you compare countries in the end? They all have their good and bad, and some unique things. Few freedoms are unique, and no American freedom that I know of is. And that attitude is what bugs many people in other places.


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## dreemn

Other great things about NZ;

The option of sole midwifery care ( well, there arent alot of doctors who do this now anyway)

Maternity care is largely free

Most parts of the country are in driveable distance- even the ferry doesnt take long between islands.

My husband can be reasonably safe on the beat without the constant threat of some coked out idiot blowing him away.

But having said all that, our health system is a shambles and the drug problem is growing by the second....









But then again, we are still nuclear- free


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## MamaOui

Keep going ladies. I may have to print this thread for future reference.


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## simonee

I can't watch the MLB postseason here. That bugs me.

Even Eurosport only broadcasts soccer games, like Moldavia against Belarussia







:

MamaOui may want to ignore this post in her printout :LOL


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## PM

I'm going to annoy Ilaria with this one but I can't resist!

Quote:

Freedom to be topless on (most) beaches
Except in Forte dei Marmi where the mayor doesn't want any ugly women's bodies on his beaches. Hee hee.

I knew a family in Florence. The daughter got older, around 5 or 6, and decided she wanted to wear a top. The daddy was like "Huh? What are you trying to cover up?" He was completely scandalized that his dd would want to wear a top!

Anyway, I'm having to sit this one out.


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## Ilaria

Quote:

knew a family in Florence. The daughter got older, around 5 or 6, and decided she wanted to wear a top.
You know, I always thought it was weird how in the USA, they sell one piece or 2 pieces for little girls (babies). WHat is there to cover up!? You can't even buy just bottoms for girls here!

Quote:

Americans often consider their country the best in the world, and that they're taught to do so. As far as I know, nobody else in the world thinks that. People love their countries, sure, but the best
I have never heard an Italian say Italy is the best in the world, we are very critical of our country and its shortcomings, we're not that blind.

Oh, I do hate the smoking in Europe! Yuk!


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## PM

Oh how I wished as a child for a bottoms-only swimming suit; those stupid triangles on my boobs were so ridiculous!


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## Arduinna

Thanks to the international Mamas that shared about their countries!!


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## MamaOui

Still OT: My sister and I just didn't wear the bikini tops when we were little.


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## Ilaria

I never did either! I started wearing them at around 12.
They sell plenty of girls' bottoms in Italy and definitely no 2 piece for babies!! :LOL


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## Mona

:LOL love how this thread has come around to nudity on the beach.








I lived in Greece for a year after graduating from college. I LOVED that I could go topless. Since I am very "small" in that area anyway, I always hated tops, and bras for that matter.
They are much more liberated on the islands than the mainland, however.


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## PinkSunfish

On the gun/hunting issue. In the UK *noone* can own a hungun above .22 calibre. Before the Dunblane massacre you could own any calibre hangun under license. The licenses are given out under strict criteria and hanguns are only allowed to be used for target shooting in licensed clubs. After the Dunblane massacre there was intense public pressure to make all handguns illegal and now only .22 handguns are legal for club use only.

If you want to hunt with guns then you must apply for a license. You can own rifles or shotguns (no automatic weapons) and again the criteria are very strict. They must be stored unloaded in a special gun cabinet (attached to the wall with reinforced screws and internal hinges) which is inspected every year. There is a limit on how much ammunition you may own at any one time and ammunition must be stored separately from the guns.

Unless you are a farmer (or friends with a farmer) then hunting is a very expensive pastime. The famous deer and grouse shooting seasons in Scotland for example, take place on specially managed land and are only accessible to the very rich. Thus it is pretty difficult to hunt for food unless you know a friendly farmer who will let you hunt for pigeon or pheasant on their land.

Hunting is a thorny issue over here anyway - Britons love furry things and don't like people killing for fun. Additionally most urban dwellers prefer to think that meat comes from polystyrene trays and not from Babe, Ermintrude or Larry the Lamb







.

The majority of Britons think that the US gun laws are mental and the gun situation out of control. We do have problems with illegal gun ownership here but gun deaths are minimal in comparison to the US statistics. The US gun problem is the main reason that I could not live in the States.








T

Re bikinis: I was a very modest wee girl and would always wear a t-shirt over my swimming costume if I was at the beach. Since I was usually swimming in the Atlantic off the NW Highlands of Scotland , this was a wise precaution in my opinion. My sister was always happy to wander around in bikinis much to my horror







. I'm more relaxed about these things now when I am on warmer European beaches







.


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## DaryLLL

Ah, Europe seems so civilized compared to this young raw adolescent, pimply, cowboy, shoot-'em-up, McDonald'sy USofA.

Maybe we will get there some day, if we don't blow ourselves and everyone else up first.


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## Jane

Further off topic: Horizon organic european style creamy butter. Almost as good as french butter. And sold at the local store.

Please keep talking everyone, I'm really enjoying hearing what other people value enough to have made into law.


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## sohj

even though this isn't directly an answer to the OP, that the United States is NOT the worlds first democratic nation. The Swiss call their country the Eidgenossenschaft ( "bunch-of-guys-who-swear-to-work-together-company" -- my translation, if anyone here has a better one, please let me know) and the traditional founding date is August 1, 1291. Yes, that date is right, NOT a typo. Note, that is 485 years before the Declaration of Independence. OK, the written constitution wasn't until 1874, women didn't get the vote in every Canton until the 1970s, and military service is mandatory (or you go to jail), but it is only in Switzerland that I have sat down to dinner in someone's home and known full well that politically we are on opposite ends of the spectrum and had ASTOUNDING conversations where we all disagreed and I learned so much and the food was delicious and no one got indigestion.

And, frankly, I also noticed that as military service is mandatory or you go to jail...it is that for everyone. If you are rich, you also do your duty. You don't buy your way out of it. Every male serves. And, it is a purely defensive army. The country is armed to the teeth, but I don't think it has attacked anyone since the eleventh century.

And I was on a bus once and saw at a stop a family leave their middle class house with a car in the driveway and get on the bus I was on with their overnight bags and skis (got stowed in the luggage compartment) and get on board and we all continued into the mountains. I was thunderstruck. I couldn't imagine an American family of equivalent background doing that. If that is brainwashing, gimmie some more. I love their public transport system. I also love the fact that they have decentralized energy production. But that'll get me seriously off topic.

When we lived in Spain, I periodically would go to bed for two days just to mope about us being in Europe but not living in Switzerland. (My husband was freaked out by the idea of having to learn German....even though he already knew French and Spanish and some Italian. )


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## veganmamma

Quote:

Afghanistan-- 144.76!!!
It is my understanding the ritual female "circumcision" is practiced in Afghanistan. Some FGM is actually removing all outer genetalia and making incisions on the inside of the vagina, which makes childbirth very dangerous. I read about it in Marilyn French's (???) The War Against Women. Just thought I point that out.

Ilaria- mi amica, vorrei vivare in Italia. Quando abbiamo piu soldi, siamo andare qua.
How was that? Haven't been to Italia for a few years, and have no one to practice with anymore.







We really do want to move there though. To Maida, the little town in the middle of the skinniest part of Calabria. 18km to the sea one way and 20 the other. Or Pizzo, or Cava Dei Tirreni. One thing that I remember being so freaked out about when we were there was a town hall type meeting of the communist party in Maida- I thought! OMG! These ppl will be McCarthyed! But then I remembered it is the US who oppresses communists. :LOL

Anyway, I have to go home and cry now, about how we need to move to Europe.








Lauren


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## sohj

Quote:

_Originally posted by veganmamma_
*...One thing that I remember being so freaked out about when we were there was a town hall type meeting of the communist party in Maida- I thought! OMG! These ppl will be McCarthyed! But then I remembered it is the US who oppresses communists. :LOL

Anyway, I have to go home and cry now, about how we need to move to Europe.








Lauren*
And it is even the US who oppresses communists in other countries: One of the reasons that Italy has had so many governments was that in the 50s and 60s our government made deals with some of the US labor unions that they wouldn't be "gone after" if they sent members over to Italy and did strike breaking and demonstrations against any democratically elected communist goverments (note that in a parliamentary system, the ruling party is the one who gets to form the government...what we usually call "the government" here would be called the bureaucracy there).

Yeah, I'm for real. We destabilized foreign nations' governments. And with american laborers looking to save their own butts AND with various organized crime groups doing something "patriotic" (good capitalists, those mob guys







: ) so they didn't get prosecuted for prostitution, drug smuggling, bank robberies, murders, etc.

As someone used to say: You could look it up.


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## Wildcrafter

As an American, I yearn for the freedoms some of you Mothers have!! Most especially, freedom from guns.

Where I live in rural Maine, we won't be able to be outside for the just about entire month of November. No daily walks, hikes, pine cone and beechnut collecting for this mom, dad and son. This is when hunting season really kicks in and people from around the U.S. travel to Maine to shoot deer, primarily. We live on 20 acres of woods and it's absolutely unsafe to be outside. Even if your land has no hunting signs and you drape yourself in neon orange clothing, it is not safe. I forget to mention that our government so far has not allowed hunting on Sundays but I don't think that will last. So at least we have Sundays.

Just about anyone can get a gun and hunt and many people don't even know where they are when they go into the woods. Many out-of-staters (and, I hate to admit, other Mainers) are just here for a day or weekend to get their "kill" and many discard everything but the head to hang on a wall. I can understand that some local meat eaters will kill their own in the wild to eat, but I cannot understand that many Americans are taught at a very young age that shooting & killing for sport is ok. WHAT KIND OF MESSAGE IS THAT!?!?!?! And then they have access to guns and can even get a juvenile hunting license.

Your countries are inspiring to this American. I need inspiration in bringing a child up into this country. Many moms here have to fight to do it right. It is still widely accepted to hit your child, let him/her cry it out, feed formula and junk food, not respect a child's rights, etc etc etc. You can certainly meet some likeminded moms but you have to search, at least around here you do.

We have many freedoms that I do cherish, and I am thankful every day for many things. But we are not protected from our own stupidity, chauvanism, and greed as a nation.

Sorry to go on so long, thank you for posting here.

Mary


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## Ilaria

That was good, Lauren!!

Funny, the first time dh (a registered Republican, at that point) visited my family in Italy, we all went to a Festa Dell'Unita'. It is a summer festival for the Communist Party. :LOL The Communist Party has always been one of the strongest parties in Italy and there's much more to it that what Americans think of Communism.

I think it's so funny that when you come to the US, you have to fill out immigration papers stating you have never been a member of the Com. party







:LOL I am sure thousands of Italians lie every year! After all, the first Amendment of our constitution says that _Italy is a Repubblic founded on work_ (work=lavoro=labor)

(But my favorite article is #11: Italy refuses war as a means to solve international conflict







) Of course our current idiot ignored it and supported his buddy the Shrub...but I digress.


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## veganmamma

Grazie









I don't disagree with you sojh. Well said.

Ciao,
Laura


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## Britishmum

oooh, I forgot one.

Children have the freedom of knowing that no teacher may hit them.


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## Marlena

I'm very late to this party, but I just wanna chime in with those who've already thanked people for contributing to the thread. It's been an enjoyable read! It's also making me want even MORE to leave the US and head abroad. Man, we just GOTTA get the he!! outta Dodge.


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## applejuice

DH and I looked into moving to Rome years ago, and I forget exactly why, but it was prohibitive.

My Father also wanted to emigrate to New Zealand, and he was rejected even though he was a doctor which I thought would give him an advantage.

I generally agree with all of the posts. YOu have to remember that most cultures and peoples try to work out waht is best for them.

IN the U.S., $ was not much of an issue historically until the Industrial Revolution and after the Civil War.

The slaves were freed and had to compete with waves of newcomers for jobs.

The capitans of industry, as I remember them being called in my history book in school, exploited workers for huge profits. LIfe changed very quickly, the frontier closed.

America lost its innocence.

The Dollar became all powerful.


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## sohj

Quote:

_Originally posted by applejuice_
*....IN the U.S., $ was not much of an issue historically until the Industrial Revolution and after the Civil War.

The slaves were freed and had to compete with waves of newcomers for jobs.

The capitans of industry, as I remember them being called in my history book in school, exploited workers for huge profits. LIfe changed very quickly, the frontier closed.

America lost its innocence.

The Dollar became all powerful.*
Money was important before, and was the cause of a great many problems from the very beginning of the Republic.

One example was Shay's Rebellion, which was around 1786. People who had fought for the confederation of colonies against Britain had effectively been financing the war. They had been paid with government issued "script" that was just an i.o.u. and had returned to doing whatever they had been doing before the war. A great many of these people were farmers and were at the mercy of the seasons and the middlemen. Many sold their i.o.u.s to speculators to raise money to pay off debts and found that it wasn't enough. Taxes were being levied by the states (as the federal government had no power to tax under the Article of Confederation) and generally in the form of land taxes. The people who made the least (farmers) generally paid the most. And most of them were in debt to begin with. So, they rebelled. The first thing they attacked was the debtors' courts.

Sounds like money was a problem to me.

Then, as far as competition with immigrants, the Irish started coming in long before the Civil War. The industrial revolution started here in the early part of the Republic with the mills. These were powered by water, not coal or steam and absorbed a great many immigrants. There was plenty of friction there. (They also didn't have to pay much in land taxes, and got a "free ride", so to speak, out of the landowners who, at first, paid the bulk of the taxes (see above).

This industrial versus agrarian economic struggle also was one of the causes of the Civil War.

If one can make a general statement, it looks to me as if just about every conflict in this country can be traced to money. If you wanted to read a several page post, I could make a case for it for the Revolution itself. After all, "No taxation without representation!"

The frontier was just a dumping ground for the increase in population, at best a temporary solution for economic problems.


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## El Casey S

Quote:

_Originally posted by sohj_
*If one can make a general statement, it looks to me as if just about every conflict in this country can be traced to money. If you wanted to read a several page post, I could make a case for it for the Revolution itself. After all, "No taxation without representation!"

The frontier was just a dumping ground for the increase in population, at best a temporary solution for economic problems.*








It seems that the country was founded by people literally willing to go over corpses in order to have what they wanted - land without taxes.


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## minnowmomma

I just came across this thread so forgive me if my reply to some threads are a bit late.I was born and have been raised in the good old US of A (NOT!)my entire life and it was not until a few years ago(beginning of george w"s reign) that I began to be dissatisfied with my status as an american.I began to take notcie of the everyday injustices in the lives of regular people.Americans believe that they are free because that is what they are told from birth.But what many don't realize is that they only appear to be free because they are like so many ants under the governmental sky,beneath notice until you do or say some thing to attract attention,then the government will squash you like the bug you are.







There are inequities in every area of american life from the way children are educated to who can receive health care.hese inequities are the reason that I have begun to look outside of the american borders for a new place to call home.A place where my children can be truly free.


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## Arduinna

Welcome Winnowmomma!!!

it appears your not alone, in what you seek.


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## applejuice

I am proud to be an American.

I am descended from people who helped fund the Revolution.

Family lore has it that their loan records were burned during the War of 1812 when the British burned the White House. Dolly Madison saved artwork, and left the records of loans due to disappear with the smoke, some say deliberately. No, I am not a member of the DAR.

I agree that money and greed drove the founding of this country as well as the lust for gold, oil, and land. Yet there is an idealism that went hand in hand with the growth of this country and people worked together to build communities that often brought out the best in people.

We are the country that questioned the legitmacy of slavery, although the founding fathers did have slaves. Thomas Jefferson a slave owner, in writing the original draft of the Declaration of Independence, blamed Britain for slavery in the colonies; this accusation was struck in the final copy.

We have nurtured many groups and ideas and many of these ideas have competed for recognition in our system of government. This country has also been the stage of many injustices to many innocent people I know very well.

I have traveled abroad many times. I enjoyed my travels, and I endeavored to be a gracious visitor on all of my travels, avoiding the brand of the "Ugly American". My DH, a seasoned veteran of many travels himself, showed me the way and we also looked into living abroad also (Italy, Spain, and the Netherlands), as I mentioned above.

My FIL came to this country from war-torn WWI France from Alsace-Lorraine, an area schizophrenic in its national identity, and opened a business with his talents.

Still, as much as I enjoyed my travels abroad, being a citizen of the world and meeting other citizens of the world, I am always happy to have returned to this country.

It may sound patriotic, nationalistic, and even corny, but I am proud to be born in this country with all of its many flaws.


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## athena_dreaming

Applejuice:

Sorry, but I had to comment on this:

"We are the country that questioned the legitmacy of slavery, although the founding fathers did have slaves."

Not true. Slavery was made illegal in many countries long before it was illegal in the US. For instance, Canada. Hence the underground railroad.

I agree that America has its good as well as bad points, but America was *not* the first country to question slavery. And this sort of ignorance of the role that other countries have played in America's history is one of hte things that often bugs non-Americans about America.

I do know what you mean, though, because even though I know Canada is far from perfect, I still love it. Go figure.







s:

Umm...to be sort of on topic...some rights I have here that I appreciate:

1. The right to free, universal health care. AS a type 1 diabetic, you have NO IDEA how much this means to me.
2. The right to paid maternity leave from work, for one year. Thank goodness I don't have to worry about how to continue breastfeeding! And my husband shares this right with me--we can split the year between the two of us (and this is what we are planning to do).
3. The right to travel internationally without having to worry about where to tell people I'm from. Does that count?
4. The right to an abortion, covered under provincial public health insurance, without mandatory "waiting periods" or "counselling."
5. The freedom to walk downtown alone at midnight without being afraid of being attacked.
6. The right to marry my same-sex partner, if I had one (in fact I'm straight and married, but I still am proud that this is available to Canadians).

WEll, that's not a bad start.


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## applejuice

Canada was not really organized as a "nation" until after 1850 when the United States began its Western Movement. It was basically a British territory and it was organized quickly in response to the United States winning the Mexican-American War and annexing the Louisiana Purchase. The United States Manifest Destiny was moving the boundaries from ocean to ocean; many feared the U.S. would move from pole to equator or pole to pole.

I am aware of the many slaves who ran to Canada to be free. Elijah McCoy was one of these. He was the real "McCoy" who invented the oiling cup that facilitated the trains and also the ironing board, a sprinkler, and other things we take for granted. He was educated in Scotland, because there was little in Canada to educate a bright, young man like him .

The British had tried to keep the 13 colonies on the Eastern Seaboard and this was one of the driving points in the American Revolution.

I pointed out that American founding fathers as TJ "questioned" the legitimacy of slavery as early as 1776, even though they themselves had slaves. At least they second guessed themselves even though the Southern economy was based on it. George Washington gradually freed his own slaves by taking them North

Later men as Robert E. Lee, leader of the Southern forces during the Civil War, had freed his own slaves ten years before the Civil War. General Grant, leader of the Northern forces, meanwhile, owned slaves during his tenure as General of the Union Forces and was forced to free them long after the Emanicipation Proclamation when the Thirteenth Amendment was added to the Constitution.

I am still proud to be an American.

I 've been other places, and I am glad to return home.


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## minnowmomma

I am doing some research into moving to either Canada or great britain sometime in the next few years(after my oldest graduates from 8th grade but before my baby starts school).I was looking for information on climate(I live in the midwest and want something warmer than a chicago winter),ethnic diversity(like to see a variety of faces),and population density(not looking for a metropolis or a villiage).I have had a hard time finding a website
useful to someone who is not familiar with the area.I would love to hear from anyone with some useful info.


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## athena_dreaming

Hi Minnowmomma,

for info on Canadian weather, go to www.weatheroffice.ec.gc.ca . It's the Canadian Weather Service. Mostly it does forecasts. I'm not sure if climatological (i.e. average weather) is also there, but at least it should give you somehwere to start. And for info on particular Canadian communities, I would go to the Statistics Canada website and look up the census results. I can't remember the website off the top of my head, but they have a free set of census data called "community profiles" that includes info on demographics in different Canadian towns and cities. If you google for StatsCan you will probably find hte main site.


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## Arduinna

bumping

anyone else?


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## polka123

I find this thread facinating. It answers many ?'s I've always wanted to know.
I am a 2nd Generation American - My family came here from the wave of Eastern Europe Immigrants. They did it to escape all kinds of horrors.
That being said, I've often wonder why some are called the "ugly American". As I got older, I saw why.
Most of the US acts like the world's "spoiled, rich brats" - always whining, wasteful, & thinking they know-it-all.
I lived in AZ most of my life & travelled to Mexico often.
I was mortally embarassed at the way ,many Americans went down & treated the locals...... absolutely horrible.... like those folks were 4th class citizens.... or worse.
It was so bad I quit going 15 yrs ago.
I've met & befriended folks from other countries & saw it from their eyes...
What those foreign folks saw was total pompeous, sel-righteous a$$es.
Anyhoo, I hope more foreign folks post here.
DH & I have dreams of going to Ireland, Wales, Germany, Cz. Rep, Poland - you name it - to live....
we watch all the travel show & just sigh.
We read an article in Time mag about big-time Corporate couples quitting it all to move to some little village all around Europe to live a meager but safe, fulfilling life.... mmmmmmmmm.
all places have there down sides but somehow, life sounds sweeter over there.


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## punkprincessmama

I am so glad to have found this thread!

Can someone please tell me if is feasible for an American dentist to make a living in European Non English Speaking countries? Esp. Interested in the Netherlands.

My dh and I are thinking of moving. He is concerned about not knowing the foreign language terms for dental practices. He will be completing his dental degree here in the States.

TIA - and please keep the great info coming!


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## mosschops

What a facinating thread!

I don't know if Britishmum would agree with me... but one of the most annoying things about Britain at the moment is that Tony Blair seems intent in turning us into a minnie america! Even our education system is heading that way... it's terrible

... we'll all be carrying guns next and putting on 300lbs and wearing gap clothes and talking loudly and knowing nothing about any other countries and cracking gum and having shiny white teeth and calling our children so-and-so JUNIOR and driving massive massive cars and eating doughnuts... or is my view slightly informed by the media









on a more serious note, I think that simonee is right in that is does seem that america considers itself to be like some kind of 'leader of the world', the most economically powerful nation is a phrase i've heard used... and is so SO patriotic... which seems odd if you're one of those people (like me) who is pissed off about the war in iraq or Bush's complete denial about global warming and the damage that the us does to the environment, and also in light of the gun crime and poverty. But I know that there are plenty of people within the US who feel the same!

I know that when friends discuss moving to the US (I have some friends who are married to americans) the fear of no NHS and guns are the two main reasons for saying 'no way'.

Steph


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## steph

OK, this is OT and i don't know if this has been addressed on another thread or not, but if someone wanted to move to another country - say Denmark for example, how does one do it? Obviously you have to have a job, or skill at leaste. It just seems so formidable... honestly, if bush gets in again as pres. it would make me seriously look at leaving the country - it's just soooooo scary!


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## NocturnalDaze

This is a great thread! I have a question too...what are the average house prices in Canada and the European countries??


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## MamaOui

steph, do a google search. Put in something like "How to expatriate". I'll try to find my copy of lasts months Utne, because there was an article about expats which listed some websites. The internet is a wonderful place to seek employment overseas as well. Job search engines list jobs in other countries. Like any move, some of it requires a leap of faith.

I used to live in Europe, but now I live in Massachusetts. Dh and I would like to move back to Europe in a few years.


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## aussiemum

In some ways I think Aus is more 'free' than the us, & less so in others. We don't have a Constitution or BofR. Rights & laws are formed thru parlimentary process.

1. Voting is compulsory, so you don't have the freedom not to vote (technically, but they don't really come & get you if you don't vote.)

2. You have to wear a bike/motorcycle helmet or you will get a ticket. There are a few other 'social good' laws but I forget what they are. Must be common sense or I'd be bi*ching about them









3. Freedom from fear of guns. This is a big one for me, & I even grew up in a hunting family. Yes, you can still hunt here. In fact there's so few cops you can practically shoot whatever you like if you're remote enough, quite frankly. I think a lot of US Southerners would feel quite comfortable in northern Australia (we sometimes jokingly call it the deep North)- NOT that I am suggesting that a bunch of Americans pack up & move here.

Can't think of much more. I pretty much agree with everything untomyself has said about Aus. In some ways, it reminds me of the kind of America I grew up in, before everyone got so greedy in the 80's & scared in the 90's. But for those of you who think it sounds that good, be aware that the immigration laws can be really nasty. And for God's sake don't try & come in a boat, or they'll lock you up in Nauru or the desert for a few years until you get deported. Just ask the Afghan/ Pakistani refugees. True story.


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## BelovedBird

Freedom to see a doctor without paying for it, wirhout having to go to exauhstive appointments, filling out forms to prove that I am too poor to afford health insurance.


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## BelovedBird

Oh, and after reading more in this thread: no hunting of animals! At least none that I've ever heard of or seen.


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## NomD

New Zealand has its problems (what country doesn't?) but it has some really excellent things too. I love the fact that maternity care is not only free, but it's top class. My first two kids were born at a wonderful birthing centre, my third at home, and I had my own amazing midwife until my babies were 6 weeks old, and it was all government funded. there is a lot of criticism of the public health system (everyone entitled to free health care, but if it's non-urgent you'll be put on a wait list. You have the choice to get private health insurance if you wish), but on the occasions we have needed it (when my ds broke his elbow and needed surgery, when I needed surgery for removal of gall bladder) it was great, no probs at all.
I love the fact that my children and I have never seen a real gun. I love the fact that I can drive for 2 hours and be in the mountains, and I can drive 30 minutes and be at the beach. I love that I can drive for miles without seeing a house or another car.
I love the fact that circumsision is extremely rare here, and the fact that I have been able to not vax my children, and no one has told me I should. I love the fact that my kids get to go to the doctor till they are 6, and that our doctor prescribes homeopathics and supports our non vaccinating.
I love the fact that we live in a pretty safe environment compared to many other countries.


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## Piglet68

steph: Visa requirements vary from country to country and depend on your citizenship. You may be eligible for passports if one of your parents was born in that country. For example, I'm eligible for a british passport since my father was born there. That gets me into the EU.

Thanks to NAFTA, it is very easy for Canadians and Americans to live and work in each others' countries, if you are a professional of some sort it is simple paperwork upon crossing the border.

ocean: housing prices in Canada vary just like they do here. In some small towns prices are very low, in places like Montreal and Vancouver (fabulous places to live!!) prices are comparable to major US cities (not quite as high as Boston or San Fran, but getting there!). As with any country, the more beautiful, diverse and populated an area, the higher the prices of housing.


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## mimim

What a great thread!!
I've been trying to talk DH into a move to Canada lately. I don't think he's going for it though.


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## behr

I feel I have lots of freedom here, as I did when we lived in the States (not under Bush jr. though, I can't even look at his face anymore). Both dh and I did 'feel freer' in the US though, and we kind of relax whenever we step off the plane over there. It's hard to put in words, just a deep-down feeling that is definitely not based on policies some of which I find pretty scary. I can now understand that someone is happy upon returning home and feels prowd to be an X-national, a concept pretty foreign to most Germans of my generation (of course there are some that feel very different).

I can only speak for Germany, but some freedoms are pretty unnerving to me even here. For example the tobacco and liquor industry is free to advertise to kids and sell small packages of these addictive toxins flavored and priced especially for kids. The result is that most 11 year olds smoke and some drink regularly. Old ladies also have the freedom to say anything to my kids or myself in the street. So does the neighbor constantly nag about my dd walking around 'her' side of the house or build a snowman, or play in the yard (very annoying habit indeed). This is not a unique case. I've been told to wear a bra (as I did), to treat my dog better, to put more cloths on my baby etc., etc. etc. Seems like anyone is free to voice their opinion here (or dump their frustrations on me?).
I don't really want to trash my country, just want to show that there are good and bad things in every country, and everyone needs to figure out what their favorite place is. I do like the fact that my kids can run around naked on the beach (although they put the nudie beach right next to the playground and I've seen creepy strangers peak through the bushes from that side), that oddly-colored beverages and sweets are not the rule in lunch bags, that I can get homeopathic remedies when I need them and so on, but there is likely a downside to even the most perfect place. Of course that shouldn't deter anyone from searching for their personal paradise. I'm for one am still looking!!

Housing prices are pretty high, most everyone lives in appartments (2br from the $200,000) and houses you either inherit, move out in the country, or have a really (!) good income. I soooo wish I had a little piece of soil to garden in.
Money rules the Western World!!


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## dado

Quote:

_Originally posted by behr_
*...we kind of relax whenever we step off the plane over there.*
i completely understand this, i get the exact same feeling whenever i step off the plane in Schipol (Amsterdam's airport). and i'm not even Dutch, lol!


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## PumpkinSeeds

Well we will be moving to the Netherlands this summer so I guess I will find out how living in the USA compares to living in Europe.

I'm glad to read from NM that the Dutch have a good tolerance to immigrants, that's one thing that weighs heavily on my mind. My own hubby is an immigrant to the USA and I know second hand how horrible the transition can be when people are intolerant.

Simonee, you said the Netherlands was the second most densely populated country? I didn't know that. Wow. Oh, oh, I'm used to space. We live in a pretty small town now. Now that I think about it, the pictures we got from the welcoming package did show pretty citified living.

I guess I've been so focused on this impending birth, I haven't been able to think about the move.....


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## dado

my best friend from childhood days is dutch. we're partners in a business in holland and have zero trouble with regulations, beaurocracy, etc etc etc. what kind of business is your family in, maybe we can help?


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## punkprincessmama

dado, pumpkinseeds, others,

Maybe you can help us out?? My family is very much interested in moving abroad. It would be in about five years when dh finishes dental school. We have been learning about the Netherlands lately and love everything we are reading. I called the Dutch Consolate last week and asked how one becomes a resident and then a citizen.

The lady said that its quite complicated and that the Netherlands aren't in need of dentists, perhaps we should try the U.K. She wasn't rude but she was quite discouraging.








:

PumpkinSeeds I was hoping maybe you would share with us more of your story. Or give me some resources for moving. I do understand that the process is lengthy but I don't mind that. How did you go about learning about the country and customs and initiating the process?

Any help would be great! TIA.


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## PumpkinSeeds

I pm'ed you punkprincessmama .


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## dado

emmigrating to an EU country without solid familial connections is difficult, but some are easier than others. best first step is to build your family trees going back at least to your great-grandparents.

this should give you an idea of what you're looking for...

http://workabroad.monster.com/articles/dual/

Quote:

_Originally posted by punkprincessmama_ *
The lady said that its quite complicated and that the Netherlands aren't in need of dentists, perhaps we should try the U.K.
*


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## aussiemum

Quote:

The lady said that its quite complicated and that the Netherlands aren't in need of dentists, perhaps we should try the U.K. She wasn't rude but she was quite discouraging.
Dado, maybe you were going to respond to that ..... my response is AHAHAHAHAHA. ROFL. Maybe the UK does need dentists, but don't expect to get anything polite out of anybody in an immigration office, esp. there. Don't expect anything polite from the UK actually.

Perhaps we just had a bad experience & didn't have the 'right' qualifications. My experience of living in the UK for two years was a pretty negative one- DH can't even get me to go back for a holiday yet. Being in the UK was a huge culture shock, much more so than Aus. Sorry to be such a grump, but that's the honest truth of my experience there.


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## mollyeilis

**somewhat OFF topic***

Hmm, reading NM's bit about the immigrants being deported has me confused. Well, I'm confused if they are booting out LEGAL immigrants. I'm not confused, and I'm all for it, if they are sending ILlegal immigrants home.

From the bit of research I did in the mid-90s while absolutely pining to live in Ireland, and the bit I've done recently about moving to Australia or NZ, countries seem to have financial restrictions on moving.

When I was researching Ireland, along with a bunch of other requirements, you had to prove that you had access to something like 30,000 in a savings account, and that you had a job lined up. They wanted to make dang sure you weren't going to go on their public assistance. I seem to remember similar info for "down under" as well.

So those immigrants they are deporting must either be illegal or are violating at least one of the requirements of their legal emigration, so...it doesn't really bother me that they are being sent to their home countries. Not that much at least.

While in Ireland I met lots of illegals from America, working under the table at restaurants. I just couldn't do that. So I went back home and researched. At the wage I anticipated making the tax rate at that time would have been something like 60% so I decided to stay put (not realizing that perhaps their health care system would be alternative-friendly). I also didn't have the chunk of change needed, and I was self-employed in the alternative health industry (chiropractic, which at the time was completely out of pocket, not sure how it is now) and didn't really anticipate being easily able to get there legally.

If only my grandmother had applied for the passport mentioned earlier; her parents were from Ireland. Or if my mom had somehow managed it, but she passed away (as have all of my grandparents). I don't think I'll have much luck in the generational aspect of moving to Ireland.

Anyone have any ideas for me?









*******
I've noticed that most people here are talking about Europe.

My hubby lived in Asia for much of his life and is half Korean, and has both good and bad things to say about it. Would anyone like to talk about Asia?


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## Gitti

Austria -

We can buy a beer any day of the week! Any hour of the day! No friggin religious right telling us it's 11 a.m. Sunday and beer sale on this side of the road starts at noon.

Condoms are free in high schools and sold in most public rest rooms. Sex education is real and teenagers use prevention and are not ashamed of it. The president don't act like he never did it! Nor do the parents.

Naked babies are not considered sexy. Boys are intact and foreskins are not looked at as a source of income.

NO Vaccinations are mandatory and many doctors openly advise against them. Schools nor day care require a vaccination passport. No one is scared the CS will come after them for not choosing to vaccinate.

Homosexuals are considered normal people and have the same rights.

Everyone has a "living wage", even someone on welfare.

But most importantly: Every mom can stay at home with her newborn for three years and have job guarantee and 1st year 80% - 2nd yr. 70%- 3rd yr. 60% of her income. That gives time for real bonding. And the three years count toward retirement.

We can go anywhere any time of day or night single or whatever, without fear. Dark alleys, river banks, moonlit meadows, anywhere. The worst that might happen is that some drunk makes a smart aleck remark.

You can still buy unaltered and unprocessed food. Even pure soy beans which do not exist any longer in the US.

We don't need to go to specialty stors to buy formaldehyde and flame-retardent free baby or other mattesses and furniture. It is against the law to include those cancer causing chemicals in our every day surroundings.

Women have much fewer chemicals in their breast milk.

Oh, what I really appreciate after driving in the US: In Austria trucks on most highways must leave the far left lane open for cars. In other words, if there is a two lane highway, they can not pass. If the highway has three lanes they can use two.
In the US so often cars get held up by one truck passing another going up hill.








T

Sorry for getting off track a bit. And now I am sooooooo home sick.......


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## Gitti

Quote:

_Originally posted by CrunchyTamara_
*

Noone pays more than 350$ a month for kindergarden.

*
By Kindergarten I suppose you mean day care, right?

In the US Kindergarten is the first school year.

In Germany/ Austria Kindergarten is day care.


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## lilmiss'mama

Thanks so much to all of the mamas around the world! It is interesting to hear about other places.
Maybe it is a case of the grass is always greener... but after hearing what you have to say i am ready to pack my bags!

ETA: I think my biggest fear would be a language barrier.


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## Linda in OZ

This tends to be a touchy subject here. They are illegal. Sending them back home is one thing, sticking them in a cage in the middle of the dessert for a couple of years is another entirely









I love my country. I have the room to walk around my yard naked without fear of being spied on :LOL :LOL
We are a fairly easy going bunch of people, you can generally get a conversation out of someone walking down the street.
The health system sux and the education system sux oh and so does transport but I don't get hassled because we don't vax, some states require registration for hsing, but it isn't that hard to get. It is relatively easy to fall through the cracks if you want to.
We have fantastic beaches, beautiful bush, what's left of it anyway







:
And we make some ripper movies :LOL

Quote:

_Originally posted by mollyeilis_
***somewhat OFF topic***

Hmm, reading NM's bit about the immigrants being deported has me confused. Well, I'm confused if they are booting out LEGAL immigrants. I'm not confused, and I'm all for it, if they are sending ILlegal immigrants home.

...

So those immigrants they are deporting must either be illegal or are violating at least one of the requirements of their legal emigration, so...it doesn't really bother me that they are being sent to their home countries. Not that much at least.

While in Ireland I met lots of illegals from America, working under the table at restaurants. I just couldn't do that. So I went back home and researched. At the wage I anticipated making the tax rate at that time would have been something like 60% so I decided to stay put (not realizing that perhaps their health care system would be alternative-friendly). I also didn't have the chunk of change needed, and I was self-employed in the alternative health industry (chiropractic, which at the time was completely out of pocket, not sure how it is now) and didn't really anticipate being easily able to get there legally.

If only my grandmother had applied for the passport mentioned earlier; her parents were from Ireland. Or if my mom had somehow managed it, but she passed away (as have all of my grandparents). I don't think I'll have much luck in the generational aspect of moving to Ireland.

Anyone have any ideas for me?









*******
I've noticed that most people here are talking about Europe.

My hubby lived in Asia for much of his life and is half Korean, and has both good and bad things to say about it. Would anyone like to talk about Asia?*


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## Leonor

This is a curious thread.

I am Portuguese but living in the UK for one essencial freedom: home-education. I'm currently on single-mother benefits, but it wasn't intended, although I'm glad there is this help here.

The crime is scary here. I feel very unsafe. Criminals raping mothers in front of their babies, babies stabbed in front of their mothers, people being shot everyday. More than once, when coming back from my shopping, I saw a house or shop vandalised, surrounded by tape, and police inside, in those white suits taking evidence. God!

If someone can help me find a better country I would appreciate it.

Leo


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## the_girl_from _oz

Wow i can't believe some of you are complaining about health care in Australia.. sure by OUR standards things are not doing too great at the moment (gotta love the current government







: ) but look at it this way..
We can go to a hospital when we need care and not have to worry about "how will i pay for this?" "will they treat me, i dont have insurance?" "i dont think i can afford to get my apendix removed", we can give birth for free in clean, well set up and SAFE hospitals without worrying about any costs, because every australian has the right to 100% FREE health care for medical essentials (and a lot of non-essenitals too)- what more could we want!? I hear about the health set up in america and it makes me cringe.


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## aussiemum

The only trouble I've had with the health care system in Aus is trying to get them to let me give birth in my clean & safe HOME!!!! That was a bureaucratic nightmare! And I only 'won' by default. But that is pretty much the only brickbat I can think of to throw at Medicare. Australia is a wonderful place IMO.


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