# 14 month old, time to start discipline?



## Cprem (Nov 25, 2009)

I think the toddler years are around the corner! My daughter is almost 14 months and will not listen to me. When I tell her "No" in a stern voice, she just smiles and really tries harder to get into what ever I'm trying to keep her out of. Interesting she looks right at me while doing it. Is this testing?
Also she has started to pinch me when I hold her. I don't think she is trying to hurt me (and it does hurt!) but just likes to do it.

Finally, any advice on setting boundaries when going out to eat? Not that my husband and I go much, but last night we went (at 5:30) and she becames a terror! yelling, throwing. she knows that we will bend over backwards to keep her happy but it was so stressful, we just had to take turns taking her out of the restaurant. Ridiculous really.

would love some advice!!!


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Go out to eat with a toddler?
















Sorry....have a 17.5 month old, who is fabulously well behaved, and we only go out to eat when we have the energy for at least one person to be able to walk with her at all times.

"No" is a pretty meaningless word at this age. It's better to redirect (you can try using words, but be prepared to just pick your baby up) to an activity that is okay. E.g. "the kitty litter stays in the box *grab baby before hands go into cat poop carry baby over to play area* ooo blocks!"

Redirect, distract, and honor the impulse

that last means that as much as possible, redirect to something similar.

Baby is climbing on the sofa? Haul out the step stool. Baby is grabbing handfuls of your mail you need to read? Retrieve some envelopes from the recycling.

This is a great forum to get creative solutions to recurring problems.


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## Natsuki (May 4, 2004)

Remember that toddlers are physical rather than verbal. ANY verbal instruction you give needs to be immediately followed up with the action to demonstrate what you mean and so she will learn to trust your words and understand what you say.

I also didn't use 'no' as much as specific descriptions "Stop" "Come down" "Tables are not for standing" (all the while I would be picking her off the table, stopping her from getting into something she shouldn't, etc...)

My mantra during those years is "Get off your butt" b/c it reminds me that I need to be an active parent, not trying to conduct with just my voice when my child is that young.


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## Cprem (Nov 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Go out to eat with a toddler?
















Redirect, distract, and honor the impulse

.

that is a good mantra to go by. I also use the "that is not for babies" and "careful" pretty often. I know she is too young for "discipline" but she is just testing her boundaries sooo much, so wanting to know some tips to start with.

yes eating out with a toddler







... Maybe I'm doomed to Chucky Cheese!!! nooooO!!!!


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

I've only resorted to NO out of surprise...e.g. she is reaching for a cup of water and I look up and go "no!" Which actually works most the time b/c of the surprise factor.

But I intend to avoid NO as much as possible.

Restaurants can be russian roulette, but making them successful has more to do with consistency and paying attention to routines. We actually give DD a snack or even a whole meal before we go out to eat. Sitting and waiting for food can be horrible for a little one. We also go out during the slow time...2 or 3PM, or 8-9PM on a boring day like Monday or Wednesday. Too much noise can overstimulate little ones.

Having a couple backup toys or even a little sweet (remember she ate already) can help distract at a moment of crisis.

DD got really bad about restaurants from 12-13 months. We almost quit altogether, but it passed on its own. Now she is wiggly but loves going.

I think kids at 14 months are entirely able to understand you. But discipline...that can mean different things to different people. IIRC the pre-frontal cortex responsible for impulse control does not develop until 2-3 years of age. So it seems quite foolish to me to begin disciplining or expecting specific behavior from those who are younger. Redirection, communication and building empathy, sure. "No, don't touch" over and over? Sure to make you crazy.


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## Laur318 (Nov 25, 2008)

i'm with you on redirection and avoiding "no" all the time. you say you use No for surprise, and i'm the same, but my surprise is equally danger, i.e., he's going to hurt the cat, squash his fingers, and i am not within reach to fix the danger myself. since i dont use no, i redirect him a whole lot, and it work when we're out to eat. we keep most of the glassware far out of reach also







it also helps if you bring your own boosert highchair rather than the wooden ones provided. the boosters give the kids a tray for their own things, so they cant reach across the table and swipe your much-needed glass of wine







:


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## PluggingAway (Dec 11, 2008)

Hi Cprem, I have a 14 month old also. This is what I found helpful with my almost 4 year-old during the young toddler years:
1.) keep expectations age appropriate--kiddos have a difficult time making it through a restaurant meal..definately an acquired skill!
2.) redirect, distract, honor the impulse...so, so true
3.) like a previous poster, I worked hard not to parent from across the room, and to "get off my butt" and physically intervene with redirection, distraction, and honor the impulse.

I guess I just reiterated what everyone else said.









Oh, I picked my battles. I refused to get into a power struggle with a toddler. And I really tried to set him up for success...I picked up the dog's water bowl constantly. I'd rather move it from temptation than fight him over it. I tried to work with him, not against him.

With DS1 my most challenging phase of parenting so far was 9 -19 months. He's almost 4 now, and he is such a breeze. So we are trying to keep the same approach with our 14 month old.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cprem* 
I know she is too young for "discipline"

See, that's the thing, redirection and distraction *are* "discipline."

Punishment is not discipline, and discipline is not punishment.

The thing that has been most helpful to me from my reading as we entered this toddler time (and I was kicking myself for not starting looking into this before she was a year







sigh) is to discipline myself first.

She's having a tantrum? First thing I do deep breaths and get my own emotions and reactions under control. Me throwing a grown-up tantrum won't help her, y'know?

She's not listening? First thing, is for me to look at how I'm choosing to communicate with her. She's a baby playing with balls, and I think words are going to get to her??







Try again on her level, scoop her up and make it a game.

It also helps to assume she's trying her best and that everything she does is expressing a need.

The need might not be for what she's saying she wants. For instance, if it's late and she's had a large dinner and she whines for food, but picks at it and whines for something new, it means she needs sleep. (note, try offering a protein or fat, if those are accepted, it was more likely true hunger than if the LO tries to get a sugar (e.g. fruit, oatmeal, etc) instead.)

It will get easier as your LO gets better at communicating to you. 14 months was a pretty bad tantrum time for us because I'd have no idea what she was trying to say. I'd think she wanted one thing she couldn't have and she'd be asking for another that was perfectly fine.

So, in your copious free time, here are some books to look at:
Your One to Two-Year Old. (ignore the stuff on discipline, but it has fantastic looks at typical development patterns)

Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline--by Bailey

Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves--by Aldort

Becoming the Parent you Want to Be

And if you can get it, first watch the "Unconditional Parenting" lecture by Alfie Kohn (it's available on DVD). Then read through the other books, then read the book "Unconditional Parenting."


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## crunchymomofmany (May 24, 2007)

It is possible to go out to eat with toddlers - we do it all the time. I've rarely had a problem. Here's the thing, though, you have to guide your toddler before you ever leave the house. If, for example, you allow your toddler to leave the table at home during dinner and walk around, then that's what they think you do...and a restaurant is no different. My kids have always been well behaved at restaurants because it's just like sitting down at our own dinner table every evening.

We "practice" our manners each night. We all wait until everyone has been served before we eat and we all sit and talk and laugh and eat until everyone is done. No one is allowed up from the table - except to use the bathroom or get something - until everyone is done.

As for the not listening. Redirection and talking on their level is the best way, but the pinching is something you need to take care of right away. Just grab her hand when she does it (not hard) and make a sad face and say "no, that hurts mommy." Do it each time. Eventually she'll stop.

Remember, they're only this little once so try not to make a huge deal out of everything - but also, you're the mom, so you make the rules. Just be consistent with them.

Good luck!


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchymomofmany* 
As for the not listening. Redirection and talking on their level is the best way, but the pinching is something you need to take care of right away. Just grab her hand when she does it (not hard) and make a sad face and say "no, that hurts mommy." Do it each time. Eventually she'll stop.

That is redirection. Well, half of redirection, the other half would be to say "touch people gently, like this" and move her hand to show her how.


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## crunchymomofmany (May 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
That is redirection. Well, half of redirection, the other half would be to say "touch people gently, like this" and move her hand to show her how.

Thanks for the clarification! I am, as you can see, a moron...


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## AustinMom (Jul 16, 2008)

I started a whole thread on this, you can search for it, it's under time out 18 month old. I think that a baby is very much so able to understand what "don't do that" "don't touch" "no" all mean. Mine did at around 10-12 months. If he was reaching for something, and if his eye caught mine, I'd simply shake my head no, and he'd shake his and not touch whatever it was.

I guess I'm one of those moms who believes her toddler can understand more than what is typically taught. I have used time out once, but mostly, it's redirecting, but somethings you can't redirect, like pinching, of course you model NOT to pinch, but it not something you can do in an instant and have them understand that you are modeling that specifically.

Yes, I do think kids "test" their parents at early ages and it's sometimes (most probably) pushed off as "they don't understand". I don't believe that. Somethings yes, like maybe "it's too cold outside to go play", or "you have to wait for dad to get home for ____".

That's just my view, and I feel a lot of people will disagree with me, as I have seen on my post. Good Luck!


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## nettlesoup (Feb 3, 2009)

We gave up on saying no to our 11 month old. Whenever she gets into something we don't want her doing and say no, she just shakes her head with a big grin, and does whatever it is even more. Generally we just redirect her but it doesn't always work.


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## crunchymomofmany (May 24, 2007)

"No" is not a completely useless word - even to a toddler. It, like anything else to a child, becomes useless when it is used so often it no longer has meaning. I only use "no," firmly and sometimes loudly, when there is an immediate danger...a 2 year old climbing up somewhere dangerous, a child headed for the stove while I'm at the sink, a child headed toward a road. These instances are rare, and so is my use of the word no (except to the teenagers, then I use it all the time!). Because it is almost shocking to my little ones to hear it, they usually immediately obey it (and yes, obey is the word I chose because sometimes, even in a crunchy, free-thinking, free to be you and me world, it's important that a child obey).

Discipline can always be gentle, but it can also be firm. Consistency is very important. Call it whatever you want - redirection, distraction or what have you...but let me say, I have read all of the books (no, really, all of them) and I have used many of the techniques and here's the thing...you have to be the mom, you have to be in charge, you have to be caring, listening and engaged all of the time. When you're not paying attention is when things go wrong. Also, you have to get the idea out of your head that you have to explain yourself to a toddler all of the time. Sometimes you do just have to do what I say - because it's right, because I don't have time to explain myself or because I said so.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

I like the definition of discipline that's coming out on this thread. Typically when I run across the word discipline, it means something punitive. I often have trouble discussing gentle parenting b/c the definitions are so incompatible.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchymomofmany* 
It is possible to go out to eat with toddlers - we do it all the time. I've rarely had a problem. Here's the thing, though, you have to guide your toddler before you ever leave the house. If, for example, you allow your toddler to leave the table at home during dinner and walk around, then that's what they think you do...and a restaurant is no different. My kids have always been well behaved at restaurants because it's just like sitting down at our own dinner table every evening.

We "practice" our manners each night. We all wait until everyone has been served before we eat and we all sit and talk and laugh and eat until everyone is done. No one is allowed up from the table - except to use the bathroom or get something - until everyone is done.

Yes to this. We have been going out to eat with our four children (5 and under) since they were infants. Granted, we don't eat out that much, but when we do they are excellent, precisely because they know what is expected of them (we model the behavior at home all the time.) Meals are a time for sitting down, not walking around or getting up and down from one's seat. Kids wait to be served. If someone is finished we still expect them to sit for awhile while others finish.

As for the pinching, I say "Ouch" or "That hurts Mommy!" and remove their hand. Then put it back and say "Gentle" and make their hand stroke my cheek, neck, whatever over and over so they understand that Mommy likes to be touched "gently". They seem to catch on pretty quickly.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Y'know there's a large range of normal with kids, and I'm worried that Cprem's going to feel badly that she doesn't have one of these magical children who instantly listens to "no" by a year or sits and eats quietly in restaurants.

Yeah, it can happen that kids are that way, and there are things that can be done to encourage it if they ARE that way, but there's nothing wrong with a kid NOT being like that and it'd be incredibly harmful to force them.

As soon as we accept society's LIES that the only good and normal child is a quiet obedient child who can participate in all adult activities, we fail our children. (Even the ones who are quiet, obedient, and can participate in all adult activities.







)

It isn't "you can teach a toddler to XYZ" it's "some toddlers have no problems with restaurants, what worked for us..."

(And just to be clear, our period of "can't take her out at all" lasted about a month. And we did exactly 0 work at home. Now, if she's in a good mood, she's fine at a restaurant. And if anyone is going out to eat with a toddler in a bad mood and getting upset with them acting like they're in a bad mood, please don't bother to tell me about it.







)


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Y'know there's a large range of normal with kids, and I'm worried that Cprem's going to feel badly that she doesn't have one of these magical children who instantly listens to "no" by a year or sits and eats quietly in restaurants.

I don't understand. The majority of the posters here agreed that taking a child to a restaurant is hard if not impossible sometimes. I believe just two of us said we have no problems....so why would she feel badly when the majority is on the same page as her?

Quote:

and it'd be incredibly harmful to force them.
I disagree with this. There is nothing harmful in teaching a child table manners, unless one is beating the child into submission or something.

Quote:

As soon as we accept society's LIES that the only good and normal child is a quiet obedient child who can participate in all adult activities, we fail our children. (Even the ones who are quiet, obedient, and can participate in all adult activities.







)
I feel like you're picking on me and the PP....and I have no idea why.

I don't know why it's okay for some posters to say kids are impossible in restaurants but it's _not_ okay for others to say their kids are good in restaurants, and _why_ they are good.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

I don't know...really it's when they hit 3-4yrs that restaurants can become tricky, b/c then they might get into one those real unstoppable tantrums.

A younger toddler at a restaurant is all about creating an environment that doesn't trigger them. Something to do, food in their tummy. Not too loud/busy.

Consistently getting into "no" wars might point to an overal dynamic that isn't conducive to going to restaurants though. Especially if the child thinks it's a game or becomes frustrated. It might take awhile to turn that around.


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## crunchymomofmany (May 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anastasiya* 
I don't understand. The majority of the posters here agreed that taking a child to a restaurant is hard if not impossible sometimes. I believe just two of us said we have no problems....so why would she feel badly when the majority is on the same page as her?

I disagree with this. There is nothing harmful in teaching a child table manners, unless one is beating the child into submission or something.

I feel like you're picking on me and the PP....and I have no idea why.

I don't know why it's okay for some posters to say kids are impossible in restaurants but it's _not_ okay for others to say their kids are good in restaurants, and _why_ they are good.

Thank you for this! As the mother of 7 children - I've had a wide range of personalities - some quiet and some very, very loud and naturally defiant and let me just say that it is not difficult to teach a child to sit still or have table manners - what is difficult is having the patience and/or consistency to do so. My children - believe you me - do not come out naturally obedient and cheerful! I've had to put in the time to parent them. Because I like to go out, I like to make sure it's an enjoyable experience for all - and I resent the implication that being taught something like manners is somehow painful or harmful to a child. I think allowing children to wander around a restaurant - which can be a dangerous place - is more harmful and further having seen firsthand the results of no parenting parenting, I'm not sure a hands-off approach is the best option! To each her own though...it's definitely a luxury that a mother with more than one child doesn't have!


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## minmoto2 (Dec 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anastasiya* 

I don't know why it's okay for some posters to say kids are impossible in restaurants but it's _not_ okay for others to say their kids are good in restaurants, and _why_ they are good.


I don't think sapphirechan is saying it's not okay to say your kids are good in restaurants & why. I think (correct me if i'm wrong here sapphirechan) she is saying that these same methods may not work for _every_ child. The parent with a toddler that isn't ready to 'work on manners' may feel something is wrong with their child or parenting, when it's really society's unrealistic expectations that are in the wrong.

I think it's unfortunate that so many believe a 'good' kid is the quiet kid at the dinner table, when that yelling, food flinging, wriggly toddler at the next table is exhibiting developmentally appropriate behaviors. This maybe not the _desired_ behavior, but maybe society is expecting a bit much from a toddler?

All of my kiddos have been able to sit at dinner, but not because I have attempted to practice with them, they just have that temperment. They have also had their moments at restaurants where we have had to walk around to entertain them while not actively eating.









There is a very broad range of normal for toddlers and the fact that some kids can sit and some can't is probably just a reflection of that range and encouragement of 'appropriate' behavior in the kiddos ready for it.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *minmoto2* 
I don't think sapphirechan is saying it's not okay to say your kids are good in restaurants & why. I think (correct me if i'm wrong here sapphirechan) she is saying that these same methods may not work for _every_ child. The parent with a toddler that isn't ready to 'work on manners' may feel something is wrong with their child or parenting, when it's really society's unrealistic expectations that are in the wrong.

Yep!

Sorry everyone, I'd just read a lot of internet commenting about "just teach that child to mind!!" and "if you just tell them what do to, you won't have a brat!!!" and that made me twitchy.


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## chipper26 (Sep 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchymomofmany* 
Thank you for this! As the mother of 7 children - I've had a wide range of personalities - some quiet and some very, very loud and naturally defiant and let me just say that it is not difficult to teach a child to sit still or have table manners - what is difficult is having the patience and/or consistency to do so. My children - believe you me - do not come out naturally obedient and cheerful! I've had to put in the time to parent them. Because I like to go out, I like to make sure it's an enjoyable experience for all - and I resent the implication that being taught something like manners is somehow painful or harmful to a child. I think allowing children to wander around a restaurant - which can be a dangerous place - is more harmful and further having seen firsthand the results of no parenting parenting, I'm not sure a hands-off approach is the best option! To each her own though...it's definitely a luxury that a mother with more than one child doesn't have!









How do you teach your children table manners at such a young age? I am picturing my dd screaming in her high chair and banging her head against the back of it if I make her sit there until everyone is finished... not a pleasant experience for anyone involved. Do you let them throw an all out fit in their chair and force them to stay there? Just curious...

Doesn't the impulsiveness at this age override the ability to "listen" in many instances? I know boundaries need to be set and enforced, but what are realistic expectations for kids under 2?

My dd doesn't wander around restaurants, but my dh and I play tag team a lot and walk her to the front, outside, etc. to occupy her if she is antsy in her seat.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chipper26* 
How do you teach your children table manners at such a young age? I am picturing my dd screaming in her high chair and banging her head against the back of it if I make her sit there until everyone is finished... not a pleasant experience for anyone involved. Do you let them throw an all out fit in their chair and force them to stay there? Just curious...

Doesn't the impulsiveness at this age override the ability to "listen" in many instances? I know boundaries need to be set and enforced, but what are realistic expectations for kids under 2?

My dd doesn't wander around restaurants, but my dh and I play tag team a lot and walk her to the front, outside, etc. to occupy her if she is antsy in her seat.

Well what comes to my mind immediately is consistent redirection 24/7, not just at the restaurant. So if you don't want her climbing on the table, never let her on the table, ever.

I don't know if I'd call it "teaching manners" at this age, but more like "taking it off the radar." DD went through a table stage and we just made sure to cheerfully and instantly redirect her. Over and over and over. And one day she never did it and now she is 15 months and never does it. Same with things like throwing on the ground, banging, screaming, etc.

Of course, this concept won't work if the child has unmet needs. A tired, poopy, hungry, bored etc toddler is not going to have "table manners" no matter how long you practice beforehand. So flexibility and an open attitude are important.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I help Lina climb onto the table at home and she doesn't climb onto the table at restaurants or relatives homes.









Yeah, you could make a concerted effort to be consistent and work on table manners at home, or you could just model them and let your LO grow out of that phase.

It's like the arguments that if you don't make the child sleep alone, they'll never sleep in their own bed. Or if you don't put them down, they'll never learn to walk.

Just model what you want to happen, be prepared for what you don't want, and relax and they'll get there.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I would just get take out for a while. One of my kids is a young toddler and very easy to go out with. The other one never would have been easy to go out with at that age no matter what. She was and still is very high needs, though she's just turned 8 and has lovely manners, and has for a years despite the trouble we had eating out when she was a toddler and baby. She's still a wild one, but she has a pretty good understanding of when to reign things in that has come with additional maturity.

I'm sure there are lots of kids like my younger one who can be gently taught to stay sitting through a meal. But then there are a few wild ones who are going to have trouble, and there's no point banging your head (and his or hers) against a wall when a little time will resolve it.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chipper26* 
How do you teach your children table manners at such a young age? I am picturing my dd screaming in her high chair and banging her head against the back of it if I make her sit there until everyone is finished... not a pleasant experience for anyone involved. Do you let them throw an all out fit in their chair and force them to stay there? Just curious...

For me, no. From infancy my babies sit at the table with me. I eat, they nurse. I eat, they lay in my lap. I eat, they sleep. Whatever. As they grow they sit on my lap or DH's and nurse or play with something while we eat. When they are high chair aged, they sit in their chair (a clip-to-the-table one) and play while we eat, and if they get cranky or miserable we take them out to sit on our laps. If need, be, I'll stand and eat while bouncing baby but we're still AT the table. When they move to a booster seat, they've pretty much got it down. Every now and then an impulsive toddler will jump out of the seat and I'll ask if he is finished, and he'll say yes or no. Yes, he can get down to play. No, he must come back up. As they grow a bit older we keep them at the table longer even when they are finished by talking with them. How many peas are on your plate? How many broccoli trees would you need to make a forest? What fruit would you put in your cup of water to turn it red? And so on.... We don't keep them there for the entire meal, but long enough that they slowly grow into staying for the whole time.

To me, it's all about interaction. We don't just sit and eat. We talk, pretend, count, sing songs, etc. It doesn't change when eating out...just a new place.

Quote:

Doesn't the impulsiveness at this age override the ability to "listen" in many instances? I know boundaries need to be set and enforced, but what are realistic expectations for kids under 2?
I don't think in my parenting that impulsiveness ever gets to override anything.


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