# Can we talk semantics?



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Sometimes I read here things that I wonder are just a matter of how *we* say we do things. I know this isn't true in most cases but I wonder if we can discuss this issue.

An example would be bribery. I would like to say that I don't use that tactic with my child but some things *feel* so much like bribery but they're just phrased in a very "GD" way.

We talk about natural or logical consequences and how they are so different from punishment and I agree that they are but there still seems to be this grey area where it's more about how we talk about what we're doing more than the actual action.

I could probably think of some more examples but I want to post this now. Please know that this is an issue that *I'm* struggling with and is an issue I want to work out ~ it's not, not a dig at anyone or at GD.

Honestly, I've worked hard at these differences that sometimes seem very subtle and I'd prefer to hear that they really are that important. It's just hard for me to realize that just by rearranging the sentence, I'm positively helping my child and the other would be negative, yk?

TAO! Thanks.


----------



## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

I've wondered the same thing...


----------



## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
Honestly, I've worked hard at these differences that sometimes seem very subtle and I'd prefer to hear that they really are that important. It's just hard for me to realize that just by rearranging the sentence, I'm positively helping my child and the other would be negative, yk?

First, I hope I'm not missing your point.









Second: Yes! The subtle differences are powerful, IMO. They are everything. A slight variation on one phrase can turn it from a negative accusation to a positive, helpful suggestion.

That's all I have for now. I've had too much sugar and my brain isn't functioning well. I want to see what others - especially you, ICM - have to offer on this, though. I think about it almost constantly lately... am trying to work out those kinks because I'm finding more and more that I'm wielding words like weapons when I get worn down and that negativity is creeping into my speech. There's a lot of work to do.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

No, you're not missing my point...I also hope to read more for a similar reason that you said. Must sleep. Thanks for a place to talk about this stuff, all.


----------



## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Ok...tell me if I'm getting this straight...
1)natural consequences are ideal...natural being, say, dc breaks a toy, and now it's just broken...the concept is internalized...
2)logical consequences are a grey area...similar to punishment (perhaps in the eyes of the child, at least), but not hateful.
A logical consequence is :dc is hitting another child with his toy baseball bat...asked, explained, and warned to stop...doesn't stop...toy is taken away.
In the absence of a natural consequence, some GD adherents will use logical consequences. Some believe it is punishment, and will not. It's an area of personal choice.
3)Simple punishment is not GD because the emphasis is not on the child's growth in self-dicipline. Simple punishment is only about altering immediate behavior.
It might work quite well for this purpose, but moral concepts are not internalized.

Is this right?


----------



## bionicsquirrel (Jan 2, 2003)

I am a little confused, but very interested.

I think I am most guilty of doing things like this:

Quote:

2)logical consequences are a grey area...similar to punishment (perhaps in the eyes of the child, at least), but not hateful.
I often say things like, " I asked you to stop, you chose to continue and now I am taking the bat away."

Or I will ask if ds is finished eating, if he says yes, then I take the plate away, but often he fusses and wants it back. Is there a better way to handle this?

Also, how young is too young to understand a natural consequence?

Thanks for starting this thread.


----------



## WithHannahsHeart (Apr 22, 2003)

i agree it often is about semantics, sometiems even hairsplitting that can become unproductive







. Not in this case, however; i think you have some good points.

For me, i consider that we practice gentle discipline, even though we do often present logical rather than 'natural' consequences. It works really well for us, and we also talk to dd a lot, value her opinions, and give her many many choices and options when appropriate. I'm sure plenty here would not in fact consider that 'pure' gentle discipline, but that's ok with me. I don't need to be 'perfect' to be a parent that respects and values her child as a person, nor do i need a label for how i parent.


----------



## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Quote:

Also, how young is too young to understand a natural consequence?
I'd say babies come hardwired to understand natural consequences...5 or 6 months at the latest...?


----------



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I think it seems like a grey area because it is a grey area. I am guilty of interchanging the phrases 'natural' and 'logical' consequences, because we do both and I believe both are appropriate. I don't see what we do as punishment, but I can see how someone could paint it that way.

Bribery - I struggle with this one myself. When ds asks for a cookie, and I say he has to eat dinner first, am I not in a sense bribing him to eat dinner? When I want him to leave the playground, and I promise another trip tomorrow, am I not bribing him to leave? When I think about it I realize that I am trying to offer things that I would have done regardless of the action that ds takes. For instance, we were going to go to the park tomorow anyway. So I am not bribing him, but reminding him that we will be back. I was going to let him have a cookie anyway, but would prefer he eat a healthy dinner first. But it could easily be called bribery by someone else.


----------



## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

"Go to your room- you are driving me nuts!!" Punishment
"Go to your room until you are ready to talk to me respectfully" Logical Consequence
"Lets go rest on your bed, you seem to need some down time" Natural Consequence

Punishment is done to a child. A logical consequence is kind of like a deal you make with your child- you give me A, I give you B. A natural consequence is a solution for your child's problem.

I think it feels like semantics because the difference between a punishment and a consequence is in the intention and meaning. Doing GD requires thinking through your responses, punishment is knee jerk and logical consequences don't really take your child or the situation into consideration.

At least that is one more opinion for the mix.


----------



## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

I think semantics account for a lot. I've put my foot in my mouth so many times talking with other parents!

When it comes to message boards especially, phrasing accounts for a lot. Here 's some examples.

"Let's go to the grocery store, that way we can get that cheese you like."
Positive marketing or bribe?

"If you don't put on your socks and shoes, I'll have to do it for you."
Options or threat?

"Since you said you were finished eating I'm not giving you any more food tonight."
Natural consequence or punishment?

Any of these situations could "feel" a variety of ways to the people in them at the time, and could be expressed a variety of ways on a message board.

That's abig reason that phrases like CIO and "spirited child" can raise such controversy- the meaning can be broad or narrow and people can read a lot into them.


----------



## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Great examples!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
"If you don't put on your socks and shoes, I'll have to do it for you."
Options or threat?

Sounds like a threat, doesn't it? And here's a good example of how changing the words/phrasing can make the exact same sentiment seem positive and helpful:

"Can you put your socks and shoes on by yourself or would you like me to help you?"


----------



## Bippity (Sep 12, 2003)

:


----------



## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Mom-

Quote:

"Can you put your socks and shoes on by yourself or would you like me to help you?"
Child-
"NO!"

Doesn't there sometimes come a breaking point where it's an altumatum?(sp?)
I ask as I really don't know...haven't gotten that far into parenting yet...







:


----------



## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
Great examples!

Sounds like a threat, doesn't it? And here's a good example of how changing the words/phrasing can make the exact same sentiment seem positive and helpful:

"Can you put your socks and shoes on by yourself or would you like me to help you?"

I was sort of talking about how easily we may mis-express or mis-interpret how people post about their experiences at home when I gave those examples.

But, yes wording makes a lot of difference with kids, too.

Though I know what the answer to your question would be with my dd "NO!"


----------



## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
Though I know what the answer to your question would be with my dd "NO!"

Same here. It worked for a while - no more. :LOL

But no, to respond to kellyb's post, I don't think it comes to the point of ultimatum. Especially with shoes. I'd just take them along and explain when we got wherever we were going that, unless he wants me to carry him the whole time, we can't go in until he puts them on because the shop doesn't allow people in without their shoes. That's generally incentive enough for him to put them on.

Hm. Maybe that is an ultimatum, though. I guess I always think of ultimatums as threats - which they are. There again, the language (and tone) make the difference.

But maybe I'm straying too far from ICM's topic here. I have to admit that I'm not really sure.


----------



## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)




----------



## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Another phrasing option is this:

It is time to put on socks, and here are your choices. You can do it or mommy can help.

You clearly and concisely explain the expectation and give the child options for how to meet it.


----------



## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annab*
Another phrasing option is this:
It is time to put on socks, and here are your choices. You can do it or mommy can help.

Or "You can put on your socks, or I can help you"

OR

"If you choose not to put on your socks yourself, I would be happy to help you."

I just need to watch myself to keep the snarky tone out of my voice...
Annette


----------



## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

I think about this all the time.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
"Go to your room- you are driving me nuts!!" Punishment
"Go to your room until you are ready to talk to me respectfully" Logical Consequence
"Lets go rest on your bed, you seem to need some down time" Natural Consequence

Punishment is done to a child. A logical consequence is kind of like a deal you make with your child- you give me A, I give you B. A natural consequence is a solution for your child's problem.

I agree. I think logical consequences are very different from punishment, and natural consequences are different from logical consequences but now that I've thought this over all day I don't think that there's a clear distinction between natural and logical consequences, or a definition of them that everyone agrees on. And yes, I think that it's our intention and how we communicate with our children that makes GD different, that makes similar words or actions mean such different things. It's also the perspective we take that makes a difference.

If I punish, my perspective is "I need to control how my child behaves" and my tone will reflect that. If my child won't put her shoes on I might say "Put your shoes on right now or I'll do it for you!" or "If you don't put them on right now you'll go without shoes and freeze!" Then it's punishment when I put the shoes on for her or she goes out without shoes. It's doing something to my child that is unpleasant for her.

Sometimes my perspective is "It's my job to teach my children how to behave appropriately" and I might use "logical consequences". If my child won't put her shoes on, I might explain that I understand that she doesn't want to go but we have to and say "you can put your shoes on or I can help you put your shoes on, what do you choose?" or "you can put them on now or you can put them on in the car, but it's cold outside and your feet will get cold if you don't put your shoes on now."

When my perspective is "I'm here to help my child learn and grow, what does he need?" I might use more "natural consequences" and lots of problem solving. So when the problem of the shoes comes up I will look at things from my child's point of view in order to find a solution. I might say "I understand that you don't want to put your shoes on, but we do have to leave. Would you like to choose different shoes?" because maybe the shoes are uncomfortable. Or "It seems like you're having a hard time, is it because I'm asking you to hurry?" because maybe she feels rushed and stressed and isn't able to cope well when she's feeling like that. Or maybe "What can I do to help you get ready to go?" Or "The car is nice and warm, let's just leave even thought your shoes aren't on so you don't have to hurry. We can pretend we're at the beach."

This is so hard for me to articulate and I'm not at all sure I'm making any sense. I think it's _all about_ subtleties and perspective, because that's what communication is all about, and that's very important. Discipline is all about how we communicate with our children-what we say to them, how we say it, whether we listen to them, how we listen to them, having empathy-putting ourselves in their shoes in order to understand what they need.


----------



## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

:


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I like the approach often given in these discussions, which is to give a specific example of a situation, so we can look at that.

What I have found is that you cannot really live a theory. It comes down to fine tuning your attitude about "disciplining" so that in the moment, your feelings can guide you.

This is so hard to do, I have often failed at it.

But the reason giving an example works well, is that it is real life. Real life situations don't fall into one neat sequence (I'm sure you know that though).

Words represent action, and that is why it does come down to semantics. Words are misleading. Context is everything, kwim?

It is much easier to help someone work through a specific situation than to say "bribery looks like x" "natural rewards look like z".

Does that make sense?


----------



## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

What you said does make a lot of sense, Heartmama. I'm going to quote part of it because I liked it so much:

Quote:

What I have found is that you cannot really live a theory. It comes down to fine tuning your attitude about "disciplining" so that in the moment, your feelings can guide you.
This is so important, and it's also difficult.

I do think that it's important to use examples because there are very, very few absolutes. Bribery does not always look like "x" and "x" isn't always bribery. A harsh tone is not always bad, and in fact can be useful in communicating volumes that calm words couldn't, but sometimes it is harmful. And one person's threat is another person's explanation of consequences. One person's logical consequences are another's punishments. One person's natural consequences are another's permissiveness, and someone else's logical consequences

Quote:

Words represent action, and that is why it does come down to semantics. Words are misleading. Context is everything, kwim?


----------



## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
"Since you said you were finished eating I'm not giving you any more food tonight."
Natural consequence or punishment?

I don't like to trap DS with his own words like this. We are all allowed to change our minds, within reason of course. If someone promises to give me a ride somewhere and at the last minute leaves me stranded because they "changed their mind", I would be mighty pissed! But that is being inconsiderate. Deciding you are hungry after all is not.

I think it's good for kids to feel like they can change their minds, again within reason. Otherwise they can become afraid to make any decision for fear it isn't the right one, and they won't be able to go back and change it later. Also, by showing our child that it's OK for them to change their minds, it makes it easier for you to change yours! I have seen some parents get really bound up in the whole thing about never being able to go back and say they were wrong or they had a change of heart, because of misguided notions of consistency or absolute authority, etc. They are afraid they'll lose face, that changing your mind is a sign of weakness. Yeah, if you flip-flop all the time it can be a problem but nobody makes the right call every time and it's important to be able to fix it if you do make a wrong decision, yk? We're all just human, we make mistakes.

Especially over something like food, IMO kids should have free access to whatever healthy food they want, all the time. It should be totally up to the child, they should have complete control over what they eat, and when they eat it. (Again, I'm talking about healthy food, here.) It's just too easy to get stuck in a power struggle over it and this is one area where you really don't want to do that.

Sorry, I went totally OT.







: The semantics issue is really a great topic, I remember posting about it back when I first started reading about GD because that kind of bothered me too. I still kind of struggle with it but for me what it boils down to is intent. I will continue to lurk.


----------



## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

I remembered a kind of funny story.

My DS gets upset when you take his plate away, whether he is actually done eating or not. I usually leave it on the table until he has been off playing for a good long while, then I put it in the sink. I have been known to leave it on the table overnight.







I indulge him in this weird quirk of his, lol.

Well, one time we went to a friend's house for dinner and I forgot to mention this eccentricity of DS's and at the end of the meal, my friend quite innocently took DS's plate away and scraped the leftover food off it into the sink. DS instantly started to howl. She was like, "OMG, what happened?" And I was like,







- my bad for not mentioning it! So she actually scooped a handful of sloppy food out of the sink and plopped it back on the plate and handed it back to DS. :LOL He had been done eating for quite a while, we had been just sitting around talking, so she felt safe in doing this that he wouldn't actually *eat* the sink food, lol. I don't know what it is, the kid gets attached to his food.


----------



## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
Especially over something like food, IMO kids should have free access to whatever healthy food they want, all the time. It should be totally up to the child, they should have complete control over what they eat, and when they eat it. (Again, I'm talking about healthy food, here.) It's just too easy to get stuck in a power struggle over it and this is one area where you really don't want to do that.


I had to giggle when I saw this post! I only used the food example cuz I saw something like that elsewhere on this board. I myself would never actually say that. (Partially because dd is only 2.5 and doesn't really understand that eating now means she wont be hungry later. )

If anything I wonder if I am too lenient about food "issues". Reasons- dd prefers breastmilk to most other foods, is incredibly picky about food in general, and I have been fighting off nipple thrush for a couple months. In an effort to cut down on her nursing I sometimes feel like I'm catering to her every dietary whim! lol.

Example- last night dd didn't want much of her dinner. So after dinner I offered her some leftover mac and cheese. She took 1 or 2 bites, said "done" and I threw out the rest from her plate. So before bed she asks for more mac and cheese and in a rare moment of "firmness" I said I wasn't making any more. Well... to make a long story short I ended up making instant mac and cheese at 3:30 in the morning.









Maybe hunger as a logical or natural consequence works with older kids, but it's a little to long-term for little ones.
And anyway, I don't want to deal with the natural consequences of dd not eating!

I guess i'm off the topic of semantics...


----------



## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

FTR, mommyofschmoo, I did get the impression from your post that you were just using an example of the type of stuff you were referring to, not giving real life examples.


----------



## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

And now I'm hungry for mac and cheese. :LOL


----------



## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

famousmockngbrd,

Sorry if I got a bit defensive... Not sure why. I think discipline is a really tough area. Lots of room for self questioning.

I very much saw your point about trapping kids by their own words. Gee, if someone held me to everything I said, I'd be in trouble!

I think it's hard to work with natural consequences with toddlers, though, because consequences for most things occur a little while after the action. Also, it seems kinda mean to later say, "I told you so" all the time.


----------



## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
And now I'm hungry for mac and cheese. :LOL

Then you should come over here. There's plenty of Annie's in the cupboard and always a batch on the stove!


----------



## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:

When you plant lettuce, if it does not grow well, you don't blame the lettuce. You look into the reasons it is not doing well." -Thich Nhat Hanh
You are the lettuce. Your kids are the lettuce. We're all lettuce. Don't blame the lettuce-understand it, show it some compassion, help it grow
Sledg I love your sig!!!

So if we are growing lettuce, we don't expect that every moment will be the perfect ratio of sun to rain. We understand that days of sun, days of rain, thunderstorms, wind, seed genetics, fertilizer and weed control contribute to beautiful lettuce. I worry about Mommas who are so worried about "getting it right". If you are thinking about, trying, reading some good stuff and honest and open about your humanity- your kids are getting better than most on the planet. They are so resilient- an occasional thunderstorm won't damage them.


----------



## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

famousmockngbrd said:


> Especially over something like food, IMO kids should have free access to whatever healthy food they want, all the time. It should be totally up to the child, they should have complete control over what they eat, and when they eat it. (Again, I'm talking about healthy food, here.) It's just too easy to get stuck in a power struggle over it and this is one area where you really don't want to do that.QUOTE]
> 
> The food issue is something I feel strongly about as well, and I wouldn't feel comfortable removing the option of having more food later. In our family all foods are free to have (even "junk" food) whenever they want.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

So is the consensus that these distinctions are quite small but are very important? Good examples, btw.

Sometimes it's really hard for me to figure out how such a small thing makes the difference. Bribery is a big one for me because it's not something I'm comfortable with, especially with daily parenting. It's an important issue for me and yet I feel that the lots of the day could be worded in a way of bribery and coercion but the only thing to change would be the wording.

As I type, I'm realizing something for myself. If something seems very common and the differences of positive and negative parenting are in this semantical level often, maybe a change should be considered.

I'm just talking here&#8230;I'll be back later with more of this thought process.


----------



## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

The more I think about it, to me, it's really just boiling down to "golden rule" parenting...
"Treat your kids now the way you want them to treat you when you're old and senile"...kinda...lol...
Or "treat your kids the way your younger self wanted to be treated"...
We know when we're being mean. We know when our children are upset. We know how to make their lives as happy as possible without spoiling them. We know a happy kid is not a spoiled kid.
This whole subject is almost transendental in it's abstractness...common sense, but almost impossible to articulate....
LOL....I'm starting to think of it in Yoda terms...
"GD we do not do....GD we are"....ha!


----------



## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kellyb*
The more I think about it, to me, it's really just boiling down to "golden rule" parenting...
"Treat your kids now the way you want them to treat you when you're old and senile"...kinda...lol...
Or "treat your kids the way your younger self wanted to be treated"...

Or maybe this one from the Natural Child Project: "Treat your child as you would like to be treated" (now, not then or when) I used to have this bumper sticker on my car.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
So if we are growing lettuce, we don't expect that every moment will be the perfect ratio of sun to rain. We understand that days of sun, days of rain, thunderstorms, wind, seed genetics, fertilizer and weed control contribute to beautiful lettuce. I worry about Mommas who are so worried about "getting it right". If you are thinking about, trying, reading some good stuff and honest and open about your humanity- your kids are getting better than most on the planet. They are so resilient- an occasional thunderstorm won't damage them.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Treating people the way I want to be treated has never been a useful guide for me because I don't like to be treated the same way as most people I know do.


----------



## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
Treating people the way I want to be treated has never been a useful guide for me because I don't like to be treated the same way as most people I know do.

Yeah, this gets men and women into trouble often. Men when stressed at work really want time alone, women tend to want more connection... so when your husband comes in and you follow him around being "supportive" you may be making him crazy.

As far as sematics go, I keep thinking about this. I know that my whole life is about words and how I use them. I have seen the power of my choice of words in the therapy room, here on MDC and certainly in my personal life. The human brain is a verbal miracle. The subtleties of why one word rather than another, why a post can trigger such anger when read by one person and tenderness when read by another. I chose my words in response to who I think the OP is and then take my hits from others who react differently. Part of why I spend so much time here on MDC is that it helps me hone my use of language. I can't use or read body language. No one sees my fancy office or the degrees on the wall. People find help here in only one way- the words that help versus the words that don't. I think that the word we use to organize our thoughts and feelings are amazingly powerful. I think using the right words to organize how we think about raising our babies is a challenge.

Sorry... too many words... obviously using you all to help me organize my head.


----------



## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Following this thread has given me some real insights into my parenting!

One thing I noticed today reminded me about how important tone is, as well as semantics.

Like a lot of 2 yo's, my dd is more compliant when she knows very clearly what the plan is. While I like to give her options and choices, if we really have to go somewhere, there's no point in my "asking."

I just noticed today, though, how I sometimes end my statements with an inflection that makes them sound like a question. And other times I phrase statements as questions, like "Why don't we go to the park?" rather than "Let's go to the park!"

In fact, IRL I've sometimes wondered why I seem to attract unsolicited advice- well, this is probably why!

thanks for the insight!


----------



## bionicsquirrel (Jan 2, 2003)

This thread is terrific, and I am thinking more and more about how I say things and also why I say things in certain ways. What it boils down to for me is that I need to be more flexible with my ds.

the comment about gardening and knowing that the weather will not always be the way you want it rings true in my life. I tend to be pretty uptight when I am late, or frustrated and poor ds often falls victim to this. I remember trying to garden last season, new to the midwest and just hating the wind so much...it blew everything away, ruined my crops...etc. I stood in the garden cursing the wind. Really I should have just chucked it up to a learning lesson and come back later. I often have to do this same thing with ds, but that is okay. There is nothing wrong with waiting for your child to make the decision if it means everything will go smoother.


----------



## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Interesting...I think of the idea of treating others as I'd like to be treated in more general terms-with respect for their feelings and individual needs, with compassion, setting aside my own ideas of what they need and really listening to what it is they need rather than just assuming they're just like me. So, even though my husband might like to be left alone after a hard day and I like to talk, treating him as I like to be treated doesn't mean following him around offering to listen while he talks. It means respecting his need to be alone, just as I'd like my need to talk to be respected. KWIM?

Words are so interesting.


----------



## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
As I type, I'm realizing something for myself. If something seems very common and the differences of positive and negative parenting are in this semantical level often, maybe a change should be considered.

I'm glad you're coming back because I'm not sure what you mean.

I really think the answer to the semantics question lies within each of us and depends on our honesty with ourselves. If it's bribery, it's going to be bribery no matter how you phrase it. Punishment is punishment, no matter how nicely it's sugar coated.

You can say, "If you are a good girl and get in the car now, you can have a piece of fruit when we get to the store." Or you can say, "Get in the car now or no fruit!" This is where the semantics come in. The first way is phrased more nicely, in a positive way, and the second is more of a threat, but they are both based on the same reward/punishment method of discipline. On the other hand, you can say, "Let's go to the store and you can have a piece of fruit when we get there." This could also be caalled just a matter of semantics but to me the difference is the kid gets the fruit no matter what, it's not dependent on how the child behaves. It's really more _reminding_ the child of something positive that will happen when you get to the store to make them want to go, but if you have to drag them kicking and screaming (not a method I would recommend, BTW) they still get the fruit. KWIM?

I hope this makes sense, I could ramble on further but Monkey Boy is up.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
I really think the answer to the semantics question lies within each of us and depends on our honesty with ourselves. If it's bribery, it's going to be bribery no matter how you phrase it. Punishment is punishment, no matter how nicely it's sugar coated.











Yes, FMB, you are describing the problem that I think I'm experiencing. I have often struggled with coercion (I don't like doing it) because there is this feeling I get from time to time about being manipulative with my child. Now, this particular issue is off topic but it relates because, maybe for me, it isn't just semantics some of the time ~ like you said.

To my recollection, I have never actually bribed my child with something that she could or couldn't have depending on her behavior. My situations are always much more like the last one you described than the first two.

But, what about this one ~ we go to the store and get the fruit and as we're leaving, DD asks for the fruit and I tell her that she can have it in the car on the way home. This 'works' but I feel uncomfortable about it.

Sometimes I plan my day with the 'fun' thing towards the end. I'm not ever going threaten to take her playground time away but it's mighty helpful to have that coming, yk.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Off topic...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
Part of why I spend so much time here on MDC is that it helps me hone my use of language.

I wanted to mention that I can relate to your post about the added benefits of MDC as a means of practicing how we express ourselves.


----------



## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
If it's bribery, it's going to be bribery no matter how you phrase it. Punishment is punishment, no matter how nicely it's sugar coated.

Has anyone else here seen the movie "Adams Family Values"? It's the second Adams Family movie.

There is a scene where the frighteningly cheery camp counselors catch some kids sneeking out of camp. They say, "we're not here to punish- we're here to inspire. What you kids need is a little time in the Harmony Hut."

The Harmony Hut, of course, is a gooey, sugar coated punishment.

For some reason, I found that movie very very funny. Now I know why.


----------



## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*









To my recollection, I have never actually bribed my child with something that she could or couldn't have depending on her behavior. My situations are always much more like the last one you described than the first two.

But, what about this one ~ we go to the store and get the fruit and as we're leaving, DD asks for the fruit and I tell her that she can have it in the car on the way home. This 'works' but I feel uncomfortable about it.

Sometimes I plan my day with the 'fun' thing towards the end. I'm not ever going threaten to take her playground time away but it's mighty helpful to have that coming, yk.

As I was reading this, I realized why the "positive framing" I do feels odd, or like a bribe sometimes.

Like you, I use phrases like "Let's go to the pharmacy and we can go to the park after" in a factual way, not conditionally.

However, As I'm saying this I can hear my mother's voice in my head saying. "But she shouldn't get to go to the park if she isn't listening to you. You shouldn't be rewarding this type of thing."

I only feel like it's a bribe because I imagine someone else might see it that way.

Hmmm...


----------



## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

*


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
As I was reading this, I realized why the "positive framing" I do feels odd, or like a bribe sometimes.

Like you, I use phrases like "Let's go to the pharmacy and we can go to the park after" in a factual way, not conditionally.

However, As I'm saying this I can hear my mother's voice in my head saying. "But she shouldn't get to go to the park if she isn't listening to you. You shouldn't be rewarding this type of thing."

I only feel like it's a bribe because I imagine someone else might see it that way.

Hmmm...


But its not a bribe if you are telling your child that they have to go to the pharmacy. No discussion or resistence from them is going to change it. You are just doing a nice thing for someone who has to do something that maybe they don't really want to do.


----------



## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riotkrrn*
While I've seen the error of assuming that the same "things" will be important to DD, I do feel that by making a continuous and conscious effort to parent respectfully and to give DD as much control over her life as possible (to the degree she's comfortable with it), I'm treating her, in a broader sense, how I wanted to be treated.

Yes! I see treating my kids the way I want to be treated not as giving them a specific "thing" I like or always wanted from my mom, but as giving them the respect they deserve as people, allowing them the freedom to be who they are, feel how they feel, want what they want.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
But, what about this one ~ we go to the store and get the fruit and as we're leaving, DD asks for the fruit and I tell her that she can have it in the car on the way home. This 'works' but I feel uncomfortable about it.

ICM, I do this all the time. My kids get something at the store and want to eat it right away, but I don't feel it's appropriate or convenient to start eating it right there in the store (not always, just as an example) so I say "you can eat it when we get into the car and buckled up" or "it's too messy to eat here, you can eat it when you get home." It's not at all connected to behavior, it's just what I feel is appropriate so I see no problem with it. It would be different if I said "If you behave nicely until we get to the car, you can have it in the car." That, I think, is a bribe. But on a rare occasion, in a pinch when things are not going well and I'm really low on patience and creativity, I think there's no harm in it









I've found that when something about my parenting doesn't feel right, there's always a reason. Maybe it's a reaction to how I was raised, maybe it's pressure from people around me to do different, maybe I'm really overthinking things in my striving to be a perfect parent. Maybe it's just not working or maybe my expectations are unrealistic. It's always worth it to just sit with that uncomfortableness for awhile, to feel it and not try to fix it right away, because eventually I'll see where it's coming from. Then I can make a change.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya43*
But its not a bribe if you are telling your child that they have to go to the pharmacy. No discussion or resistence from them is going to change it. You are just doing a nice thing for someone who has to do something that maybe they don't really want to do.

I agree. I recently had to take all 3 kids to the doc when my son was sick, and the only appointment they had was right after my daughter got out of preschool. No babysitter available. My daughter is very tired after school, and waiting around is hard enough for her when she's well rested, so I knew the doc visit would be unpleasant for her and I felt for her. Heck, I didn't want to go anymore than she did. So I told her when we were done we'd go get a treat. Not a bribe for good behavior, just something to make an unpleasant afternoon a little nicer.


----------



## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Finally able to delurk and type with both hands!

I think I understand the OP's question: some days one may wonder if it all really is semantics, and if the resulting actions are really more important than the phrasing. I'm sure on some days, one wonders if it's all worth it to go to the struggles we do to remain positive and "correct" in our choice of phrasing.

Well, what has convinced me of the merit of this struggle is my relationship with DH. We follow the Imago theory of relationships. Basically, we follow a guideline for dialoging about issues. One important thing we've learned is that semantics DOES matter hugely. Simply rephrasing a statement can prevent a knee-jerk defensive reaction in one's partner. A reaction that then totally interfere's with that person's ability to listen and truly be there for their partner. These reactions stem from negative associations and experiences in our childhood. And part of the healing process of Imago is figuring those out and then dealing with them. But besides that is just the skill of developing good communication. And semantics (phrasing/tone of voice) is truly key to that. We have had such huge success with it, and I have seen/felt firsthand how important it is, that I'm convinced of it's merit.

What is neat, too, is that as adults we are dealing with these negative associations, but our babies don't come with such things. So whereas DH and I are choosing our tone/words carefully so as to enhance communication and avoid these negative triggers, as PARENTS we are trying to prevent such negative associations from developing in the first place.

Keep in mind that, no matter the consequences, words evoke emotions. You want your child's emotional response to your words to be healthy ones. I don't know if I'm explaining this very well, and I hear baby stirring so I must be going. But I wanted to make the point that yes, semantics ARE so important. And I live that truth every day in my own self, enough to know it holds true for my toddler, too.

(awesome thread, as always, ICM!)


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I must say that GD language comes rather easily to me. This is probably because of how I was raised and that I'm the oldest of 8 ~ I've been using this language as a caretaker for 20 years. So, I'm not complaining about how difficult it is. In fact, it's ingrained in me, which is why *I* need to question it, yk?

Regarding getting the fruit when she's in the car. It works like a bribe and I'm very, very well aware of that, which is the problem. Maybe I should just count my blessings, ha?

Respect is probably the key issue here. I guess, I feel a little disrespectful when use little strategies for making life easier. I'm just uncomfortable with thinking of my child as something that should be managed? It makes life easier for DC though so&#8230;I don't know.

Finally, hello, Piglet! Congratulations on your new baby. It's so nice to see you around again. I also thought of the semantics issue in regards to my DH. Yes, I totally understand how important this is when it comes to communicating. But, I can see where even with your partner things cross over the simple semantics issue into the category of manipulation.

Anyone remember that line in My Big Fat Greek Wedding? The mother says that "Yes the father is the head of the family but she's the neck and can turn the head any way she wants." or something like that? This is such a fantastic line.

I guess this is what this is about for me ~ when is it more than just semantics? Sometimes I get really worried that I'm a terribly manipulative person and maybe I am&#8230;I don't know. I'd prefer to believe that I'm just hyper aware of manipulation&#8230;maybe it's a little of both.

Thanks for the props about my treads, btw!


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

This head/neck issue is bringing up another example for me. Acutally, that line in that movie had a big impact on me because the advice the mom gave afterwards WORKS! It's terrible that I know this because it means that I've tried it







.

It goes that if you can get your partner to think that something was her/his idea than you can get agreement from something that your otherwise wouldn't have.

So, if I want to have a party knowing that DH is usually reluctant, I can give him the options in a way that makes him choose the date and who we invite. This IS manipulation when you look at it in terms of your partner.

And, this is what I often do with my child. I might say something like, "What do you want to do after we go to the pharmacy?" It's like I've just slipped the pharmacy in there as a give in&#8230;Aya is none the wiser.

Am I crazy for feeling bad about this?


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

That guilty guy looks really sad, ha? I'm not sad...I think I was thinking of another smile...







maybe?


----------



## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I think that in large measure, a discipline strategy IS a matter of semantics. I have heard it said countless times that GD is a philosophy, not a method, and I agree with that, but it's also an action. You can hold the GD philosophy and still bungle it by disciplining in a very non-GD way, and you can hold a very different discipline philosophy and still act in a GD way.

Because of that, I don't proclaim myself an adherent of any style, method, or philosophy of parenting. I do what works in the moment, with an eye toward my daughter's long-term development and self discipline. But I'll be the first to admit that the third time she kicked my glasses off my face in 5 minutes, this time succeeding in breaking them, I raised my voice to her and sent her to her room as punishment. And I didn't feel guilty about it. In my opinion, it's fine for kids to know that they've made you angry and to feel bad (angry, sad, etc.) about that. To me, that's a very human model.

Namaste!


----------



## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

I react to the word manipulative because it is often used against children when they come into therapy. Children can get labeled manipulative when they are less skilled at asking for what they need directly but come to think of it... kids are manipulative if they use the same techniques that their parents have used. Since my gift as a therapist lies in using my words to help people attain their goals- not mine, I don't see it as manipulation. But sometimes, to get around their "issues", I use indirect communication- this is called strategic therapy. Talking in metaphors and story telling are also forms of indirect communication- hey- most religions are based on this form, it must work. I guess I think it comes down to intent- if you are using your words for good its pursuasion, for evil- its manipulation. So the struggle is in the power and responibilty we have as parents to have to decide what is truely in our child's best interests. Isn't that what makes parenting so hard and so important?


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Okay, that IS interesting, MMM. I think what you said about intent is important. I don't 'persuade' or 'manipulate' Aya because of just my needs/wants. I do it so we can *both* have a nice day, learn and enjoy ourselves and do the work we need to make that happen.

I also found what you discussed about being a therapist to be interesting because I've experienced something similar when helping friends with problems. My feeling has always been that I am being manipulative but for positive goals, like helping a friend to realize the best path or make a good decision.

So, I wonder if you could elaborate on the relationship between strategic therapy and 'persuasion' or 'manipulation'. For instance, if you ask a leading question (either hypothetical or that you already know the answer to) in order to guide a person or something like that ~ is this manipulation/persuasion? My internal feeling is that it is and it freaks me out&#8230;maybe I need therapy :LOL !

This is a power and responsibility issue for me. I'm just somewhat overwhelmed sometimes with the power I have over my child that I feel this burden to keep it in major check. I'm just not a controlling person and I don't want to be ~ and I was raised in a very, very non-controlling way. I guess I'm just easily freaked by this responsibility ~ and maybe a little sensitive about it too.


----------



## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Aha!!! Strategic therapy- can't give away all my secrets. No really- I'll have to give that some thought. But I think that it is the difference between what I do and what Dear Abby does. Most people come into therapy knowing what to do, they just can't do it. Your mom or best friend or Dear Abby already told you what to do, I help you figure out why it isn't that easy. One of my professors called it the pixy in me. There is this kind of devilish, teasing side of me that can mess with my clients in their own interest. Example- a dear client asked me about using diet pills (her sister's). She has an extensive chemical dependency history. Now, she knows there is no way I am going to approve of her taking a controlled substance prescribed to someone else. OMG!!! So- I can mess with her a bit. She knows and trusts me and more important than these diet pills is to help her learn to answer these questions without me. I can't even tell you my words, but it didn't take her long to see she was kind of looking for a fight, setting me up to be this strict "parent" with her. See what I mean?

I think you are coming to your answer- what you are doing is good for your kid, good for your stress level, your intentions are good. Sounds good to me.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Interesting stuff. One more question and then you can start charging me, :LOL

Hum&#8230;how to ask this without using the word manipulation. Can we use positive manipulation instead of persuasion because persuasion doesn't do it for me.

Okay, question (feel free to now answer) ~ With your client, did the way you helped her seem like manipulation in a positive sense? If so, is that ability to do that for someone overwhelmingly powerful? If you feel this is a powerful skill, how do you control your mind to be sure you're only using it for positive things?

Well, that was three questions?

Does anyone else understand what I'm saying here? Opinions...somehow I always end up back at this place.


----------



## FireWithin (Apr 29, 2004)

Regarding getting the fruit when she's in the car. It works like a bribe and I'm very, very well aware of that, which is the problem. Maybe I should just count my blessings, ha?
. [/QUOTE]

Is it a bribe though? Maybe I don't remember exactly how you phrased it. Did you say "if you behave well, then you will get some fruit in the car." that's not what I remember you saying. To me, that would be a bribe. I thought I remember you saying something like "when we are done shopping, you can have some fruit in the car" DS gets fruit or crackers in the car after we are done shopping, whether or not he behaves well. He knows he will get it, and that knowledge helps him be a little more patient, while I am pushing the carriage to our car.

Full disclosure: I also should add that DS also gets crackers and cheese in the shopping cart while shopping.


----------



## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
Okay, question (feel free to now answer) ~ With your client, did the way you helped her seem like manipulation in a positive sense? If so, is that ability to do that for someone overwhelmingly powerful? If you feel this is a powerful skill, how do you control your mind to be sure you're only using it for positive things?

Boy, you are making me work for my money today.









I know I have a gift. It sometimes feels powerful. I have beautiful minutes when I know I did something. I would feel pretty terrible getting paid good money to do what I do if it was the same as reading Dear Abbey (No disrespect meant, there is a place for her, too. But it just ain't always that easy.) I can only say that being aware of that power, being careful with that power is important. I work very hard at making sure both I and the client are very clear about the goals we are working towards and they have to be goals I believe I can assist in. I try not to chose the direction. On the other hand, there is always another hand. Maybe this is where it is like parenting. I know a lot about mental health-. I know things that are good for you, things that are bad for you so sometimes I guide. Like knowing that your kid is going to need to read someday means that we introduce ideas- letters, sounds in preparation for what they will need. They wouldn't pick that goal- they don't know that reading is going to be wonderful. Sometimes I have to tell people that I know that they are missing something, that there is more to life, that they could be happier, that what they are doing to themselves is hurting them. I don't know, I think I just talked myself in a circle. Does any of this make sense? I love my work and I love trying to talk about what it is I think I do. Thanks.


----------



## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Ooo...can I interject here?
I've been thinking for a while about manipulation...what got me thinking on it was the word "shaping" used in regards to child rearing.
I couldn't help but think of clay...you shape clay, but you could just as easily say you manipulate clay...
Semantics...
Here's what I'm coming to...
Everyone has known a very manipulative person before at at least one point...some of us were raised by one or two....
When I think of the quintessential manipulative person, I think of the "guilt strategy"...
Trying to unnaturally force another person to act in a certain way by means of sympathy or guilt...
Self absorbsion is another trait of a chronic manipulator... (and I'm only speaking of adults here...although I'd guess it's often a family cycle...a child might learn that this is how adults get what they want, ad infinitum..)
I don't think someone who is questioning whether or not they're being manipulative is so much in danger of doing it...any time I've confronted a very manipulative adult with the reality of what they were doing, they've kind of reverted back into a child like state of total self pity...."Don't you know that I've blablabla???! All I want is blablabla!!!"
And their "blablabla"s are never comprehensive in the slightest....
Don't know where I'm going with this, really...
LOL....I guess maybe the English language does need 2 words for the idea of manipulation...one implying something very bad...one implying something much more innocent...


----------



## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
What I have found is that you cannot really live a theory. It comes down to fine tuning your attitude about "disciplining" so that in the moment, your feelings can guide you.

This is so hard to do, I have often failed at it.











Beautiful. This totally speaks to me. In a discussion a long while back, there was talk about external consistency vs. internal consistency that I feel essentially said the same thing. It does give me some solace to know that even though I don't always execute in the moment, DS knows who I am MOST of the time, and knows in the end, I support him and want to guide and help. In essense, he trusts me, but also knows that like all people, I'm NOT perfect and DO screw up and in that, I have another opportunity to feel remorse, apologize and most importantly, grow.... right along with DS.









I'm sad, dinner is ready and I'm only about halfway through this thread. EXCELLENT DISCUSSION! I can't wait to come back and read some more.

The best to all!

Em


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
(feel free to now answer)

This was supposed to read "feel free to NOT answer". I was trying to be respectful about your work and confidentiality. That little type really changed the tone, ha. Proof read, Hannah, proof read&#8230;:LOL

Anyway, I want to thank everyone for the help and this thread *has* helped.

I've been thinking more and more about this issue and I've realized that this is complicated for me because DC's needs and wants are often completely entwined in mine, sometimes to the extent that they actually oppose each other. In these times, it is very difficult for me to be *sure* that I'm not manipulating my child, yk?

One think I have been doing is making an effort to reduce the times in which I think of my interactions with Aya as 'strategies'. I must say that this makes me uncomfortable as well. I've been tying to be a little more basic, blunt, honest, 'real' with her. It feels good.

I guess, she's also getting older. Actually, she's only three :LOL But she feels older to me. It feels like some things need to shift away from "distraction, choices, 'making things fun', tricky wording or planning&#8230;" It's all giving me a slightly bad feeling and I wonder if it isn't because DC is at a new developmental level now where she can see through this stuff now.

I know this last paragraph sounds bad. Know that it doesn't come off exactly as I want it to. I guess you could call what I'm describing "Stepford Parenting" :LOL Sometimes getting a little frustrated and showing that to my child feels more real than other ways of interacting. I can't describe it that well, maybe. I have PMS. :LOL


----------



## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
I've been tying to be a little more basic, blunt, honest, 'real' with her. It feels good.

Sometimes getting a little frustrated and showing that to my child feels more real than other ways of interacting. I can't describe it that well, maybe. I have PMS. :LOL

I think I understand what you're saying. I actually was talking with my own counselor not long ago about showing my children my feelings, rather than trying to pretend to be chipper and Mary Poppins-like at all times. I think it is more real, more honest. And by showing our own frustration or sadness or anger from time to time, we let them know that those emotions are normal in a way that just telling them it's normal can't. It also helps them learn about relationships, about how their choices can have an unwanted or unpleasant impact on others. And how we handle our negative emotions can teach them a lot about handling their own. If we always hide our negative emotions, there's a good chance they won't know how to handle their own or will go through life hiding theirs too. Obviously, there are appropriate and inappropriate ways of sharing our feelings with our children but I think it's very important to share them at least some of the time.

I've also been working on letting go of the tendency to think of parenting in terms of techniques, strategies, methods because parenting is about a _relationship_ with another person-my child. And even though that person is young and needs guidance and instruction, that person is not a pet to be trained, which is what the terms "technique" and "strategy" and "method" make me think of.


----------

