# how offensive is this tee-shirt?



## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

http://www.cafepress.com/buy/homebir...t_/fpt_/c_666/


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## CityChic (Jan 18, 2007)

I would be slightly offended but I get the point...

I wanted to have a natural birth but after 30+ hours of labor (total labor was 41 hours) I needed some medical intervention...sometimes there isn't a lot of choice...


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I think it's funny but I would never wear it.

(and of course there is a time and place for everything- even epidurals)

-Angela


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## kathteach (Jun 6, 2004)

I think it's kind of mean, and I didn't even have an epidural or any pain meds.


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## vloky (Apr 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CityChic* 
I would be slightly offended but I get the point...

I wanted to have a natural birth but after 30+ hours of labor (total labor was 41 hours) I needed some medical intervention...sometimes there isn't a lot of choice...

About the same here, it took 26 hours (at hospital a bit longer at home)to get to 4cm and at that point I took the epidural and within half an hour I was at 10. I guess my family on my dads side has stubborn cervixes, my cousin even with the epidural never made it past I think 3. (after nearly 40 hours they did a c-section..)


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I don't find it offensive so much as petty. With all the work to be done empowering women, why stoop to third-grade insults? Not to mention that whole "sissies" thing.


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## courtenay_e (Sep 1, 2005)

Yes, I thought that, too. Aren't sissies supposed to be "girly"? And aren't girls strong and powerful? So... No, I wouldn't wear it, and I'm a huge natural birth advocate. I think that, the few of the births I attended where the reason for the epidural was maternal exhaustion...those mothers would be crushed to see a woman wearing that shirt.


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## Da WIC Lady (Jul 29, 2007)

I don't understand. Why should it be that a natural physiological process should be painful outside of complications? I'm now firmly convinced that everyone should read the works of Dr. Grantly Dick-Read.

Anna


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 
I don't find it offensive so much as petty. With all the work to be done empowering women, why stoop to third-grade insults? Not to mention that whole "sissies" thing.

That's a good way to put it. It does seem petty. Perhaps childish.

I understand the frustration with mainstream culture that sparked it (and that's where I see the humor in it) but I don't see any purpose or progress with it.

-Angela


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Da WIC Lady* 
I don't understand. Why should it be that a natural physiological process should be painful outside of complications? I'm now firmly convinced that everyone should read the works of Dr. Grantly Dick-Read.

Anna









I read the works of Dr. Grantly Dick-Read and think that his works were a load of misogynistic hooey. I've had four births, all different, but all involved some degree of pain or another, with no major complications. It didn't seem prudent to listen to a man tell me how birth "should" be, seeing how he has never gone through it. Personally, I don't think telling women birth shouldn't be painful if they do it right is the path to more natural childbirths. This is probably for another thread though.


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## CNutty (Apr 18, 2006)

There was one in mothering mag a few months back that said "epidural shmepadural" I liked that one a lot! Its empowering yourself, insted of what this one is doing...belittleing others


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

I think it plays to to the mentality that women choose natural childbirth to prove something or win an award.


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## gottaknit (Apr 30, 2004)

I think it's rude and petty and would never wear it. We can be pro-natural birth without putting down other women. Just like I would never wear an anti-formula feeding T-shirt, even though I breastfeed. Every woman's experience is different, and none can be summed up in a T-shirt.


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## Ackray (Feb 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup* 
I think it plays to to the mentality that women choose natural childbirth to prove something or win an award.

I agree.


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

I don't have strong feelings one way or another but I wouldn't wear it.

I haven't finished Childbirth Without Fear because I never have time to read. I do believe birth can be painless, since I know women who have experienced it that way. But my 2nd birth was just my husband and me, no fear, no discomfort (emotionally), etc. It still hurt like hell.


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## stellimamo (Jan 9, 2006)

I think epidurals are scary personaly. A huge long needle into my spine... not for the faint of heart.


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## meisterfrau (Sep 24, 2005)

I have to say, my first reaction was









Quote:

I think epidurals are scary personaly. A huge long needle into my spine... not for the faint of heart.
Yeah. That. Having it placed was no picnic.

For me, epidural was the first step before unwanted major abdominal surgery. And since it didn't take all the way, I got to feel my innards being stitched back together.







Definitely not for "sissies."

I agree with others who found it to be not offensive, exactly, but petty and childish...and IMO, pretty clueless too.


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## texaspeach (Jun 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I think it's funny but I would never wear it.

(and of course there is a time and place for everything- even epidurals)

-Angela









:

I generally don't like shirts with sayings on them. That shirt, and the ones that were at target that said something like sign me up for the epidural are both annoying


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

I think it's very funny, but I don't think I'd wear it.

I had an epidural, because I'm a sissy.

Quote:

I don't understand. Why should it be that a natural physiological process should be painful outside of complications? I'm now firmly convinced that everyone should read the works of Dr. Grantly Dick-Read.
Running a marathon hurts, too. Gas pain hurts, sometimes pooing hurts, vomiting hurts, breastfeeding while pregnant hurts. why should your pelvis coming apart to admit the passage of a skull not hurt?


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## meisterfrau (Sep 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *texaspeach* 
I generally don't like shirts with sayings on them. That shirt, and the ones that were at target that said something like sign me up for the epidural are both annoying

Yeah, see, I think this is every bit as clueless. So I surely have no pro-medical-intervention-agenda. Maybe an anti-snappy-sayings-on-a-t-shirt-agenda.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

I hate it. I don't find it funny at all. I find it to be totally insensitive and misogynistic. I didn't have an epidural with either of my births but I have supported women who I love through their births and two of them had epis. I would call them amazing strong beautiful goddess-women and nothing less. I hate that often 'advocacy' translates as one-upmanship, condescention and also often neglects to take into account the infinite variety of experiences and situations in which people find themselves.

And I feel the same as Annette regarding doctor so-and-so.


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

I'm not so much offended as I am just







The only reply I can come up with is 'How petty'

There are so many variables for an epidural that the t-shirt is just a blanket statement for me.... I can see the third grade humor that comes into play, but if I saw someone wearing the shirt....I would laugh _at_ them not with them







:


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## Joyce in the mts. (Jan 12, 2003)

I guess it's all in what you (general "you") choose to project into the world.

We are all women and we all are in this together-- and we all deserve to choose what best fits our lives, our level of comfort, and our sensibilities about our own bodies, our own babies and our own values.

I do believe there will be unity amongst us all someday when we honor everyone's needs regardless.

But heck... that's just me.









J.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

I DO see the humor

however.............

Quote:

I would be slightly offended but I get the point...

I wanted to have a natural birth but after 30+ hours of labor (total labor was 41 hours) I needed some medical intervention...sometimes there isn't a lot of choice...
I was in labor 33 ACTIVE hours and got no farther than a 3 ........ we can debate all night about WHY and what could have been different .... but that was the situation........ then after pushing 3 hours, unmedicated, i had the Epdural again for the forcepts.

so

i DO see the humor, and to a limited extent even agree -- but uhhhhh I'd not go there.

there are so many better ones

AImee


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vloky* 
About the same here, it took 26 hours (at hospital a bit longer at home)to get to 4cm and at that point I took the epidural and within half an hour I was at 10. I guess my family on my dads side has stubborn cervixes, my cousin even with the epidural never made it past I think 3. (after nearly 40 hours they did a c-section..)


Yeah, I never got past 4, and then I had a c-section. Never had an epi cause my hopsital doesn't do them, or at least rarely. I will always wonder if it might have worked. Oh yeah, I'm still ticked I didn't get one.

I still laughed at the t-shirt, though. I wouldn't wear it.

oh, and getting that spinal for the c-section was not for sissies either.


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## marisa (Apr 23, 2002)

All I can say is yuck.


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## Celina2 (Aug 8, 2007)

I think that it is way too simplistic. I know of a few moms who had very late losses who preferred not having to feel labor because their babies were gone. And many of these women were very positive on having med-free births and had them with all their other children.

I have to admit, though, my first reaction was, "Gee, I guess I really should have toughed it out when my epidural failed in the middle of my c/s."

Celina


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I think it's mean and self righteous. I wouldn't think much of the wearer, kwim?


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## PPK (Feb 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 







I read the works of Dr. Grantly Dick-Read and think that his works were a load of misogynistic hooey. I've had four births, all different, but all involved some degree of pain or another, with no major complications. It didn't seem prudent to listen to a man tell me how birth "should" be, seeing how he has never gone through it. Personally, I don't think telling women birth shouldn't be painful if they do it right is the path to more natural childbirths. This is probably for another thread though.


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## PPK (Feb 15, 2007)

Oh, and I find the t-shirt to be petty and insensitive, very discouraging and belittles women's birth experience (which was quite possibly one of the most incredible moments of their lives)..not cool.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

It's offensive. First, like someone else said, it implies that natural birth is about proving something. I personally have no need to make childbirth about a challenge; I'd be perfectly happy to have it be smooth and easy from beginning to end. Wouldn't make it any less edifying for me. Doesn't make me any less of a woman.

Second, women get epidurals because they're necessary to allow them to relax, or because they're not educated and don't understand the risks, or because they don't have support for a natural birth and are psychologically undermined every step of the way (something that is very hard to deal with in the midst of labor,) or because the pain truly is torturous. Even if the goal is to prove something, none of the above is about being a "wimp". And until you've been through excruciating pain that made you feel like you were being drawn-and-quartered, *you are not in a position to judge.* If you have, you'll get it: people who think the only women who get epidurals are princesses who can't bear to break a nail in labor, just weren't pushed far enough to their breaking point. Trust me, there is one.

And yeah, Grantly Dick-Read. Well, fear and stress *are* complicating factors in birth for most women in our society. But that doesn't mean that when fear and stress are absent childbirth will be painless, because there are so many other complicating factors, and sometimes they can't all be avoided.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I'm not into namecalling pretending to be advocacy.


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## mama_at_home (Apr 27, 2004)

I don't see the point of a shirt like that. It is rude and does nothing to educate people.


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## anudi01 (Aug 11, 2004)

I like the fact that its trying to make a statement in a time where I believe Epis are so routinely given and taken w/o the risks being explained properly or taken seriously. I would like it better if it said something like,

"Epidurals are riskly and that's why I didn't have one! Inform yourself!"

I don't know it is a touchy subject, but I just think too many women see their pregnancy as something that someone else gets to/has to manage. It is a woman's responsibility and obligation to bring their children into the world as safely as possible. IMO that is at home and not in a hospital with a staff that often times doesn't have your babies best interest as their priority.


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## ZanZansMommy (Nov 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathteach* 
I think it's kind of mean, and I didn't even have an epidural or any pain meds.









:


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## 50ftQueenie (Jan 24, 2007)

I'm too chicken of the giant needle to get an epidural. Where's my t-shirt?


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## veggiemomma (Oct 21, 2004)

**sigh**


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## luckymamato2 (Jun 3, 2006)

I have that in a fridge magnet and I actually leave it on my fridge.







I don't think I would wear the shirt for fear of being assaulted.

Why can't I be proud of my accomplishment?

I have and wear a shirt that reads "I make milk. What's your super power?"


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## jmwmommysings (Jul 14, 2007)

I find that T-shirt offensive. Though I do get the humor of it and I laughed, I don't find insulting others to be the way to encourage change. Plus, if I'm honest, the reason it appealed to me is because there is a part of me that is tempted to think I'm better than some women because I haven't had an epi... and I'm not proud of that. I believe in encouraging and empowering other women in birth, not belittling them and if I feel stronger about myself by poking fun at other women then I need to grow up. I am proud of my births but not because I did something other women didn't/couldn't do but because I did the right thing for me and my baby and THAT was my choice. Besides, I don't know if I would reach a point that would have me needing an epi too, I feel I know myself but I'm one one of those women that has experienced painless childbirth and so I don't really know if there would come a point where I needed the relief. I don't judge others for making a choice that is best for them.

Advocacy and arrogance need to be separated if we truly want to make a difference.

Jessica
Baby girl #4 due New Year's Day '08!


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## meisterfrau (Sep 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luckymamato2* 
Why can't I be proud of my accomplishment?

Certainly you can be proud. But that's no reason to couch it in terms that make people who did not give birth without an epidural sound like failures. Not that I'm saying YOU are, but wearing a t-shirt like that would.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I had an obviously drug free home birth with my second after a hospital transfer and epidural with my first.

Of course I am proud, and I have every right to be, but I don't think being proud equates calling other women names or belittling their experiences.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

Quote:

I had an obviously drug free home birth with my second after a hospital transfer and epidural with my first.

Of course I am proud, and I have every right to be, but I don't think being proud equates calling other women names or belittling their experiences.
agreed --

to me

"I make milk what is your super power" is phrased as a POSITIVE, not a negivits of not doing something else.

so to me shirts that say "birthed at home without drugs" are not offisive .. they are phrased in a pos light.

however a shirt that is derogotory to fourmal or in this case to a medical intervention -- i have an issue with -- as there are too many variables ....

Aimee


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

I would never wear a shirt like that. It reeks of judgement and a crummy, belittling attitude towards others. I did NOT have an epidural, but the last eight hours of my labor were absolutely excruciating. I can see how a woman would want to avoid that and very legitimately choose the risks/benefits of an epi over the experience I had. I ended up with mild PTSD, solely due to the impact of the extreme pain I experienced for hours on end.

I think when a woman is ready for an epidural or whether she wants one or not is her own decision. I think a woman choosing an epidural because "everyone else does" or "why make myself suffer" would look at the shirt and thinks, "Wow, that's stupid." But a woman who tried to hold out, and was pressured into an epidural or decided to have one during a really difficult part of her labor would probably feel hurt and belittled. In other words, I'm not sure who the audience is for the shirt, but I feel it would have minimal positive impact and possibly a big negative impact.

I'm still planning a NCB for #2, but I completely understand why women would choose an epidural and I would not belittle anyone for making that choice (I might be sad/disappointed if the choice was not an informed one, but that's a different issue).


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stellimamo* 
I think epidurals are scary personaly. A huge long needle into my spine... not for the faint of heart.









:
I've had three c-sections. My last two were under spinal, and if it weren't for wanting dh to be there, I think I would have begged for a general instead. Needles in my spine completely freak me out.


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## Sheal (Apr 19, 2007)

Maybe I am being a little sensitive to the issue but I had a spinal (same diff in my eyes) because I need one for my second c\s. I know my situation is different because it was an emergency c\s but I feel belittled by the comment considering three of my 5 births were natural and 2 were emerg c\s.

For those who did not choose to have an epidural or spinal it may be offensive.


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## simonboy'smommy (Jan 22, 2007)

I've seen that shirt before.
I didn't have any medication and don't ever want to, but that is pretty stupid and mean.


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## doctorjen (May 29, 2003)

You know, I had a client not long ago choose an epidural after 28 hours of hard labor. I also know her family personally and she said something to me like "I feel so bad wimping out like this, I know you never had an epidural for any of your kids." (I don't advertise this to my clients, I just know her personally also so she knows my history.) I pointed out to her that she had already labored longer than I had for all 4 kids put together!! She'd made it through the equivalent of all 4 of my own labors put together, plus another 8 hours! I told her if she'd had my labors, she would have already been holding her baby for nearly a whole day, and not considering some much needed pain relief out of sheer exhaustion and inability to go on. She got that epidural, slept for a few hours while continuing to progress slowly, and then pushed out her 1st baby - 10 lbs and 14 oz.
This client was not in any way, anything remotely less than an amazing, powerful, strong woman.
That T-shirt is beyond offensive, and definitely plays up division and pettiness. I never had an epidural, or wanted one, but I would never wear such a thing.


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## Vortexing (May 11, 2006)

What good comes out of wearing a shirt like that?

Does it educate? No.

Does it entertain? Not really. If it does it's really only at the expense of women like those who've been mentioned (the comment on the mamas who choose not to feel the labor for a late loss particularly makes me wish this shirt had never been printed). I'm sure the people who've printed that shirt didn't intend to insult, degrade, or belittle those of us who've gone through a medically necessary c/s or had medicated births for any reason, but it I think it does.

I think it's insensitive to the complexity of the choices women make and the situations that many women find themselves in either by their own doing or others'. I recognize all the aspects of my situation that allowed me to have a natural birth in a hospital that many women don't have the luxury of (education, supportive DH and caregiver, positive hospital policy, etc). It wasn't b/c I'm not a sissy as the shirt would claim.


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## gwerydd (Jun 7, 2007)

i had an energency medically necessary c-section at 35 weeks due to pre-eclampsia. i am still heartbroken that i never got to go into labour let alone have the option of having a natural childbirth. i find this t-shirt to be hurtful and belittling.


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## meisterfrau (Sep 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gwerydd* 
i had an energency medically necessary c-section at 35 weeks due to pre-eclampsia. i am still heartbroken that i never got to go into labour let alone have the option of having a natural childbirth. i find this t-shirt to be hurtful and belittling.











This is kind of how I am too...not that it isn't an accomplishment to have an unmedicated birth, because it it. So mamas who did it, be proud! OTOH, I'd love to be lucky enough to get the chance to try for it. My body seems not to know how to carry a baby to term and grow him or her nice and chubby. It happened in my first pregnancy and is happening again now.

I'm sitting here right now trying to come to terms with the reality that I will possibly never get to experience labor and that I am very likely going to end up having another unwanted CS with a barely-term (if I am lucky), small-for-dates, fragile little baby who will then have trouble breastfeeding, who will be at risk for RSV, who will not fit into all the little cute little CDs I bought for him...

Uh...sorry. Got off on a rant there! My point is, it's not always the easier way out to go not-natural. I guess it just gets to me sometimes that I know how hard this all is (CS, nearly-preemie), because I've done it before. I am pretty much at a place finally where I don't feel like a failure personally because of this.

So yeah. I guess some of us (like me) are bringing some baggage to this conversation. But it helps a lot to see how many of the mamas here who did give birth naturally also feel that the shirt isn't funny and is potentially hurtful. I'm not in a place where it hurts me anymore, but I can see how it would have hurt me a year ago. And the pretty strong feelings against the shirt here affirm that most mamas are not walking around feeling superior to people like me. That makes me feel good!


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## ledzepplon (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 
I don't find it offensive so much as petty. With all the work to be done empowering women, why stoop to third-grade insults? Not to mention that whole "sissies" thing.

Yeah, I don't like the whole "I'm better than you" attitude of the shirt. Especially when it comes to such a sacred subject as birth. Why not go for something more positive?


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## washforestlion (May 17, 2007)

I'd laugh if someone who bought it ended up having one. I'm all for natural child birth and I'd never want an epidural. I think on rare occasions a "tough" women might need one for the health and safety of her baby.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

I'm a huge homebirth (and natural childbirth) advocate and I I find the shirt very self-righteous and mean. You're not going to win any converts by putting people down and making yourself look like an a$$. ITA w/the posters who said it is not wimpy to lay still while someone sticks a huge needle in your back! I would be a big wimp about that for sure.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *washforestlion* 
I'd laugh if someone who bought it ended up having one.

Now THAT would be funny!


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## mamatoElias (Aug 2, 2006)

I'm offended and I've never had an epidural. Its one thing to be proud of your decisions and experiences, but another thing to judge someone else.







:


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## Seie (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds* 

Second, women get epidurals because they're necessary to allow them to relax, or because they're not educated and don't understand the risks, or because they don't have support for a natural birth and are psychologically undermined every step of the way (something that is very hard to deal with in the midst of labor,) or because the pain truly is torturous. Even if the goal is to prove something, none of the above is about being a "wimp". And until you've been through excruciating pain that made you feel like you were being drawn-and-quartered, *you are not in a position to judge.* If you have, you'll get it: people who think the only women who get epidurals are princesses who can't bear to break a nail in labor, just weren't pushed far enough to their breaking point. Trust me, there is one.



















I had an epi for my first after 44 hours of labor - yes - there is a breaking point!

And yes - it is offending!


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## Sheal (Apr 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meisterfrau* 









This is kind of how I am too...not that it isn't an accomplishment to have an unmedicated birth, because it it. So mamas who did it, be proud! OTOH, I'd love to be lucky enough to get the chance to try for it. My body seems not to know how to carry a baby to term and grow him or her nice and chubby. It happened in my first pregnancy and is happening again now.

I'm sitting here right now trying to come to terms with the reality that I will possibly never get to experience labor and that I am very likely going to end up having another unwanted CS with a barely-term (if I am lucky), small-for-dates, fragile little baby who will then have trouble breastfeeding, who will be at risk for RSV, who will not fit into all the little cute little CDs I bought for him...

Uh...sorry. Got off on a rant there! My point is, it's not always the easier way out to go not-natural. I guess it just gets to me sometimes that I know how hard this all is (CS, nearly-preemie), because I've done it before. I am pretty much at a place finally where I don't feel like a failure personally because of this.

So yeah. I guess some of us (like me) are bringing some baggage to this conversation. But it helps a lot to see how many of the mamas here who did give birth naturally also feel that the shirt isn't funny and is potentially hurtful. I'm not in a place where it hurts me anymore, but I can see how it would have hurt me a year ago. And the pretty strong feelings against the shirt here affirm that most mamas are not walking around feeling superior to people like me. That makes me feel good!

You left me in tears because you worded my thoughts and feelings completely the way I could not. You hit it right directly on the head of the nail with this post. Thank you so much for posting.


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## meisterfrau (Sep 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheal* 
You left me in tears because you worded my thoughts and feelings completely the way I could not. You hit it right directly on the head of the nail with this post. Thank you so much for posting.
















Sheal


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## ssolberg99 (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Da WIC Lady* 
I don't understand. Why should it be that a natural physiological process should be painful outside of complications? I'm now firmly convinced that everyone should read the works of Dr. Grantly Dick-Read.

Anna

Well, the Bible answers that one...After the fall of man...Genesis 3:16 To the woman he [God] said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children."


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

So does that mean people who have little pain or pain free births are just really good people?


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ssolberg99* 
Well, the Bible answers that one...After the fall of man...Genesis 3:16 To the woman he [God] said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children."

But the bible doesn't answer anything for me. I'm sure plenty of people here don't follow the bible at all either. Honestly, I don't like much of anything men write about chlidbirth. I really hate that quote. Sounds like a punishment. Yes, it's hard work. Yes, it can hurt (badly sometimes!) but it is a beautiful experience and a gift men could never understand. Even the ones who wrote in your bible.


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## meisterfrau (Sep 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ssolberg99* 
Well, the Bible answers that one...After the fall of man...Genesis 3:16 To the woman he [God] said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children."

Guess that clears that right up.

So, there's another reason not to get an epidural. If you do, you're trying to weasel your way out of God's punishment for the sins of Eve. I never thought of it that way before.


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## jwpsgurl (Apr 28, 2007)

It is definitely offensive. Childbirth is an empowering experience, and epidural or not, it takes a strong woman to go through it and the nine months on pregnancy. Definitely not for "sissies". I had an unmedicated birth and while I was pregnant one of my biggest fears was that I was going to have to have an epidural. I would be scared to death having that huge needle stuck in my back!!! I'll take the pain before I will let them stick me.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ssolberg99* 
Well, the Bible answers that one...After the fall of man...Genesis 3:16 To the woman he [God] said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children."

Yeah. Except that there are women who do conceive, are pregnant, and give birth joyously and with pleasure. Hm. How can that be, if the Bible is the literal word of God. Hm, hm, hm. Maybe God was wrong? No, no, can't be that. Maybe the translation was mucked up somewhere along the line, maybe all those great educated men who do the translations, who know SO much about birth, have missed some subtle differences in meaning? Or, maybe all those women who relish in their childbearing are just daughters of Satan. I dunno, you decide.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssolberg99
Well, the Bible answers that one...After the fall of man...Genesis 3:16 To the woman he [God] said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children."

Yeah. Except that there are women who do conceive, are pregnant, and give birth joyously and with pleasure. Hm. How can that be, if the Bible is the literal word of God. Hm, hm, hm. Maybe God was wrong? No, no, can't be that. Maybe the translation was mucked up somewhere along the line, maybe all those great educated men who do the translations, who know SO much about birth, have missed some subtle differences in meaning? Or, maybe all those women who relish in their childbearing are just daughters of Satan. I dunno, you decide.
actually if you look back at the orginal hewbrew -- the word should be, can be, tranlated as actually LABOR as in WORK or EFFORT -- the orgianl has no implication of PAIN other than a pain of work or tired... not a literal pain as in injury or punishment. Adam was cured to LABOR to bring forth food -- ie to WORK the land and the woman is cursed to LABOR for birth -- ie to work for it. God never promised PAIN in child birth ...THAT is later interperation and tranlastion done by...men (ir the gender men, not men as in Man as in Human race) ................










AImee


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Hi, everyone! Let's remember that:

Quote:

*Our community is made up of many nationalities, religions, ages, colors, ethnicities, philosophies, affectional orientations, economic groups, lifestyles, and family structures.*
Let's take any religious debate/discussion relating to birth to the Religious Studies forum so that we don't derail the original topic. Any questions or concerns, please PM me. Thanks


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Giving birth hurts because we have evolved to bipedal creatures. Our pelvises have adjusted so that we can do things with our hands and opposable thumbs.


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## phreedom (Apr 19, 2007)

I´m in the ¨itś petty¨ camp. It just makes it seem like natural birth is some sort of unattainable thing that the average woman can´t do. I get the point of it and really can´t work up the energy to get that offended by a t-shirt. The most it might get from me is an eye roll, but most likely nothing.


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## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

I think it's funny, but I wouldn't want to offend those women who got an epidural for a reason. I mean, maybe I would have gotten one if I hadn't been home?


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## Boobiemama (Oct 2, 2002)

I'm not offended.. I had 4 natural births , 1 epidural. I wouldnt wear it, but if saw it, would think its cool.


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## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meisterfrau* 
Guess that clears that right up.

So, there's another reason not to get an epidural. If you do, you're trying to weasel your way out of God's punishment for the sins of Eve. I never thought of it that way before.

There are hospitals back in the day that refused meds to laboring women for just exactly that reason.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

I'm sorry, and this is not only OT but petty and immature, but I really can't get past the fact that the guy's name is Dr. _Grantly Dick-Read_. It's been cracking me up since I first read it on this thread.


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## cchrissyy (Apr 22, 2003)

I see why pro-unmedicated-birth people want to stand up for it or even advocate their way on ther shrit.

but man, I'm sick of seeing women that tear down other women's choices.


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## avent (Mar 13, 2006)

Wearing that shirt pretty much doubles your chances of getting an epidural. Quadruple if you have the nerve to don it as labor is starting.

I didn't have an epidural because the pain wasn't too bad but I can believe that people experience pain very differently. I can only imagine how someone would feel if they didn't want an epidural but ended up getting one and they were walking down the street and saw this. I had a lot of trouble with breastfeeding and certainly don't want to see a "Pumping is for sissies" t-shirt anytime soon.


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

I don't believe in calling names, and "sissy" applies. You can catch more flies with honey... My view on epidurals, doesn't really matter.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

People who think it's 'funny' or 'cool' to mock another's birth practices on a t-shirt seem, on the outset, to be doing it from a place of being positive towards the sensitive and natural theme of birth. But I would love to pose this perspective to them:
Birth is as _natural_, _universal_, and _'mystical'_ as sex. It really is, in pretty much every aspect if one were to truly deconstruct the idea and the practice of both. In that light, I think it's repulsive to insult a woman for opting out of an unbearably painful excersize of either activity simply because she was either a) physically or emotionally unprepared or unable to carry it out or b) in an environment not conducive to a peaceful experience.
That's what sticks in my craw about this topic when it comes down to it. We can put witty lines about anything under the sun on a stupid tee-shirt but we really need to look at what those statements are saying in the bigger picture.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Inca* 
















I had an epi for my first after 44 hours of labor - yes - there is a breaking point!

And yes - it is offending!









: I had mine after the pain from contractions caused by cytotec and breaking my waters, caused me to go into delerium and I was at the point of screaming and trying to stop every inch of my body from touching anything by arching my way off the bed. I was told by my doula, that the nurse rushed to get the meds to stop my contractions and get an epi because she thought she was going to witness a uterine rupture, she even said that to my doula. I have little to no memory of about 4 hrs of my labor because of that. I had educated myself, had doulas, and was toughing it out without the epi, I didnt even consent to the epi from what I know, they had me sign the paperwork once i was stable and able to sign something again.

There are reasons for epis and women who get them arn't "sissies".


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

I dunno. I've had an epidural (horrible experience) and I've had two natural childbirths. I'm not ashamed of the epidural (mad with the OB, yes, but no feelings of failure here.) And I"m not proud of the natural childbirths. It was just what I chose to do.









I wouldn't wear the shirt, but I also don't find it offensive. I have to say I find it funny. I can see from other responses here that I'm missing something, but sometimes I wonder if we don't need to lighten up a bit.

But as I say, I am missing the point. I"ve read all the responses, but can't seem to find it offensive, nor do I see it as tearing other women down. I just see it as a 'way out there' radical statement that maybe makes some people think. But then, I have a weird sense of humour sometimes.







:


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
But then, I have a weird sense of humour sometimes.

I forgot about this perspective


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## veggiemomma (Oct 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamajama* 
We can put witty lines about anything under the sun on a stupid tee-shirt but we really need to look at what those statements are saying in the bigger picture.

ITA -- EXCEPT this phrase isn't even witty. A four year old at preschool could come up with this one.

After laboring with my ds for 72 hours, plus the mental stress of knowing that he was going to be born at 32 weeks, and the need for an emergency c-section that saved both of our lives, I am very thankful for what bit of pain relief the epidural provided. I think the t-shirt is an open display of ignorance. I prefer to keep my ignorance hidden.









WonderWahine: I am so sorry that happened to you. I am sure you would have preferred an uncomplicated natural childbirth.


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## clavicula (Apr 10, 2005)

I don't know. Maybe a bit offensive.


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## meisterfrau (Sep 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
I wouldn't wear the shirt, but I also don't find it offensive. I have to say I find it funny. I can see from other responses here that I'm missing something, but sometimes I wonder if we don't need to lighten up a bit.

I think what you're missing is how traumatizing some of the posters' birth experiences have been. If you understood what they were saying you'd understand why they can't just "lighten up a bit" and you'd understand that suggesting they should do so is about as dismissive and cavalier as the t-shirt is.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veggiemomma* 
WonderWahine: I am so sorry that happened to you. I am sure you would have preferred an uncomplicated natural childbirth.

thanks







I had, but I am semi at peace with my birth experience, I have a beautiful boy to hold because of it. And I have learnt what to avoid next time.... eg never trust ob's


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 

I wouldn't wear the shirt, but I also don't find it offensive. I have to say I find it funny. I can see from other responses here that I'm missing something, but sometimes I wonder if we don't need to lighten up a bit.

I don't think I need to lighten up. Like I tell my kids, we don't need to put others down in order to make ourselves feel good. We're fabulous enough as it is.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

I'd rather have a shirt and shorts combo - shirt says "Not getting an epidural" bottom of the shorts say "Epidurals scare the shit out of me!"


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## Cloverlove (Jan 2, 2003)

I've had 1 emergency (but probably unnecessary) c-sect and 1 HBAC and I don't find the shirt offensive. However, I also don't find it funny.


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## Kbrinkley (Mar 6, 2007)

I think it's funny and I got an epidural. My reasoning behind thinking it's funny is because that was the truth for me. I sissied out....was too afraid of a natural process and gave in....then got a c-section again. So, whatever. I wouldn't be offended if I saw someone wearing it. Freedom of speech.


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## Organicavocado (Mar 15, 2006)

I think its funny, I was planning on getting one to wear during labor (at home, nobody would seeeeee) just for the humor and maybe a funny picture or two.

I'm sick of the "I want my epidural NOW" tee shirts on women who are like four months along. I think thats funny too, neither are offensive to me, but tiresome after you see so many. I'd rather see an "epidurals are for sissies" shirt over those anyday.. and I think thats where these shirts originated from, not just a way to "put people down" but stemming from the frustration of everybody and their brother (er, sister) having "epidural? yes please!" shirts. I can appreciate a sarcastic comeback.


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## Sandstress (Sep 21, 2006)

My thoughts:
1. I thank g*d every day for my epidural/spinal that allowed me to see the birth of my baby.

2. That shirt is provocative, and not in a good way. In an "I want to pick a fight with you" way. If that is your goal in life, well, then you're not really very nice.


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## domestic_goddess (Sep 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sandstress* 
My thoughts:
That shirt is provocative, and not in a good way. In an "I want to pick a fight with you" way. If that is your goal in life, well, then you're not really very nice.

I agree. There's no need to pick a fight over birth choices. I'd be annoyed to see one that said "Homebirths are for Hippies" or something like that. I went with natural childbirth because I could and wanted to. Does it make me a hero? Only to myself. I'm not out to prove anything to anyone but me.

I do love the pregnancy ones that say "Got Pickles" and "Don't even think about touching the belly" - but this one is annoying. Just like the "Can I have my epidural now" bugs me too.


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## Vortexing (May 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamajama* 
I'm sorry, and this is not only OT but petty and immature, but I really can't get past the fact that the guy's name is Dr. _Grantly Dick-Read_. It's been cracking me up since I first read it on this thread.









OH me too..







:







:







: I mean, c'mon... Dick-Read????? I'd change my name.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *avent* 
Wearing that shirt pretty much doubles your chances of getting an epidural. Quadruple if you have the nerve to don it as labor is starting.









I can just see some laboring woman walking into a hospital wearing that shirt... That would be an odd sight.


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I think it's funny but I would never wear it.

(and of course there is a time and place for everything- even epidurals)

-Angela

Me too.

And I did have an epidural with my first.

Although it would be a nice antidote to these...







:

http://www.cafepress.com/buy/epidura...t_/fpt_/c_666/

http://www.cafepress.com/buy/epidura...t_/fpt_/c_666/

http://www.cafepress.com/buy/epidura...t_/fpt_/c_666/

If I didn't have to search for it, I'd put in that eye roll smilie...


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

LMAO. Look at the numbers at the ends of those links.














:

Edited to say:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
I'd rather have a shirt and shorts combo - shirt says "Not getting an epidural" bottom of the shorts say "Epidurals scare the shit out of me!"

Are you going to make one? 'cause I might buy one...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *domestic_goddess* 
I agree. There's no need to pick a fight over birth choices. I'd be annoyed to see one that said "Homebirths are for Hippies" or something like that. I went with natural childbirth because I could and wanted to. Does it make me a hero? Only to myself. I'm not out to prove anything to anyone but me.

ITA about being a hero only for yourself.

BTW... I think a "Homebirth is for Hippies" shirt would rock!


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## lovemy4boys (Jun 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 
I think it's very funny, but I don't think I'd wear it.

I had an epidural, because I'm a sissy.

Running a marathon hurts, too. Gas pain hurts, sometimes pooing hurts, vomiting hurts, breastfeeding while pregnant hurts. why should your pelvis coming apart to admit the passage of a skull not hurt?









:























I never had an epidural, but I can be a sissy, too. In fact, I was just at the dentist getting my very first adult filling, and I took pause to thank God for pain-numbing meds. Then, with no one to talk to, I took a moment to remember to have a little humility when thinking about why another person might want pain meds.. esp. the epi.


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## lifescholar (Nov 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup* 
I think it plays to to the mentality that women choose natural childbirth to prove something or win an award.

I totally agree with that.

I was in induced-labour for 49 hours before I had to get an epidural, so I could rest and get back some energy so I could birth my baby! But yeah, I'm a sissy, compared to moms who have 3-hour labours without anything!







:


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## crissei (Oct 17, 2004)

Hmm...

The
I've had an extremely painful spinal
can't stand the word "sissy" because it implies women are weak
hate when people are judgmental about birth choices
part of me thinks
that shirt is painfully hurtful and offensive

The
Farrelly Brothers movie watching
Johnny Knoxville fan
nose-milk snorting at Carlos Mencia
part of me.....
.....laughed


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## lorijds (Jun 6, 2002)

Sometimes we forget that the world doesn't revolve around us and our interests.

Epidurals are not just for labor. They are used for many different types of surgeries--general anesthesia in most cases has more potentially harmful complications than epidurals, and the increasing use of epidurals for these procedures decreases the morbidity and mortality rates of these surgeries.

Epidurals are also used for those who experience excruciating chronic pain. I took care of a guy who was crushed between two vehicles when a teen hit him as he was unloading his parked car. One leg was traumatically amputated, but they managed to reattach it. His legs, pelvis and spine sustained multiple crushing injuries. He spend three months in a level I trauma center.

His pain was often controlled to acceptable levels with physical therapy and pain medication, but at times his pain would become so unbearable he would literally scream when the bedsheets would touch his legs. So he would come in for an epidural to get relief and to get on top of the pain.

Is he a sissy? I would imagine he would be quite offended to see such a shirt.


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## lyttlewon (Mar 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lorijds* 
Epidurals are not just for labor. They are used for many different types of surgeries--general anesthesia in most cases has more potentially harmful complications than epidurals, and the increasing use of epidurals for these procedures decreases the morbidity and mortality rates of these surgeries.


I opted out of a spinal and opted for general during my last surgury for the same reason I don't like labor epidurals. I didn't want a needle near my spine. I am glad it is available for people who want it but I personally took the risk with general anesthetic to protect my spine from being potentially damaged by a needle. I don't think the shirt is appropriate either way because IMO having someone enter your epidural space next to something as precious as a spinal cord with a sharp and dangerous object takes large amounts of courage. I have a friend who experiences chronic issues from a poorly delivered epidural that knicked her spinal cord.

A woman using the term sissy is like my mom calling my brother a son of a b







: kind of silly







:


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## PreggieUBA2C (Mar 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
I'd rather have a shirt and shorts combo - shirt says "Not getting an epidural" bottom of the shorts say "Epidurals scare the shit out of me!"

Awesome!


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## PreggieUBA2C (Mar 20, 2007)

Maybe someone could make up a shirt that lists the effects of epidurals during childbirth, _without judgement_- no 'pros' and 'cons,' just information, nothing else. Then maybe someone standing with me in the checkout line would have something to _read_ on my big pregnant belly instead of just looking at it in awe of how HUGE it is


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lyttlewon* 
I opted out of a spinal and opted for general during my last surgury for the same reason I don't like labor epidurals.

I wanted dh to be able to be there for the arrival of his kids. Aside from that...I'm not sure I could have made myself accept the spinal for my 2nd and 3rd sections. General makes me really sick and I feel like crap for weeks...but it doesn't terrorize me like the spinal does. It feels weird to admit that I would have almost preferred to be unconscious when my babies arrived, but...I think I would.

My only real labour was only 21 hours and no pushing...haven't experienced pain bad enough to make me _want_ a needle in my spine. I'm not saying I never will - but I haven't yet. In most cases, I find pain much, much more tolerable than the effects of anesthesia. (I'm not a fanatic - I refuse the needle for dental fillings...but I didn't try to say no to it for my root canal, yk?)


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Honestly, the shirt offends me. I usually have a high tolerance for pain - I had the majority of a root canal done without novocaine because I dread the needle more than the pain involved with the dental work. When it came to childbirth the pain was more than I could tolerate in a coherent rational way and I opted for the epidural even with my intense fear of needles. I wanted to be clear headed and with it for my births - my epidurals made that possible.

I guess that I just don't understand the need to mock other mothers and their birth choices.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
Honestly, the shirt offends me. I usually have a high tolerance for pain - I had the majority of a root canal done without novocaine because I dread the needle more than the pain involved with the dental work.

So, it is possible...the dentist refused to try - he was too afraid I'd jerk away or something.


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## Organicavocado (Mar 15, 2006)

As time goes on, and more family and friends tell me I'm going to need an epidural because I'm too sensitive to pain and I won't make it through my homebirth...

..the more I wish I had one of these shirts to stave them off.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
So, it is possible...the dentist refused to try - he was too afraid I'd jerk away or something.

Definitely possible but quite painful. I have a crazy fear of novocaine needles and it was worth the extra pain for me. I didn't jerk but I did cry.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

meh. I did end up with an epi because of exhaustion/pitocin. I'm not a sissy, but if I saw someone wearing that, I don't think I'd be so much offended as in disbelief. If someone has to put others down to make themselves feel good about their "choices" (because medical interventions aren't always a choice)- that's pretty sad, and they must not be very enlightened or peaceful people. It says much more about their own life than anyone else's.


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## PreggieUBA2C (Mar 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bri276* 
[...]It says much more about their own life than anyone else's.

I agree.


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## gemasita (Jul 1, 2005)

I saw that shirt and told a friend about it - I think it's awful! What a horrible assumption to make that all women who get epidurals are sissies! That is name-calling and it is awful!

I am a doula so I definitly believe that epidurals have to be very carefully used but I can't believe that someone would call a woman a sissy for using one.


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## PreggieUBA2C (Mar 20, 2007)

Just thought some might want to lend support over here :
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...94#post9419294


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
Definitely possible but quite painful. I have a crazy fear of novocaine needles and it was worth the extra pain for me. I didn't jerk but I did cry.

I'm sure I would have, too. I was over an hour in the chair, with a triple-root tooth. I was ready to cry just from having my jaw wedged open for so long. I'm sure the pain would have been bad...but I really, really hate novocaine...


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## ananas (Jun 6, 2006)

I don't really find it offensive...it's just kinda lame. I'd never wear it.


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## graye_pearl (Oct 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 







I read the works of Dr. Grantly Dick-Read and think that his works were a load of misogynistic hooey. I've had four births, all different, but all involved some degree of pain or another, with no major complications. It didn't seem prudent to listen to a man tell me how birth "should" be, seeing how he has never gone through it. Personally, I don't think telling women birth shouldn't be painful if they do it right is the path to more natural childbirths. This is probably for another thread though.









I. totally. agree.


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## terrabella (Oct 19, 2005)

*@}-`-}-,-'-*


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## imbarefoot (Feb 4, 2007)

I'm actually not offended by it. But I can see how others would be.


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