# When Gentle Discipline and Logical Consequences Don't Work



## monkeybum (Jan 1, 2005)

What do you do when GD and logical consequences don't work? My DS is nearly 5 and GD and LC are just not cutting it. We raised DS in an very AP home - lots of carrying, always responded to his needs, etc. As he got older, we tried to involve him in decisions, respect his opinions, value his needs/wants, etc. However, it seems that somehow, we woke up one day and he "rules" the house. He demands things from us. He thinks everything should be his way. He has a very hard time accepting that he is not the boss all the time of everything. And we're having a hard time with discipline.

Most of the time, it's getting him to do things he should do, (flush the toilet after he goes, pick up his socks, stop hitting his little brother, stop jumping on the bed at bedtime, get dressed for school, stay at the table while he's eating, get in the car (every time we leave anywhere or go anywhere, we end up dragging him to the car kicking and screaming, or we use threats of loss of privildeges, etc. which never seems to work).

He does not pick up after himself, he does not do anything for himself, and basically just ignores every thing we ask him to do. I don't know what "leverage" we have. We don't spank. We don't do time outs. I'm not comfortable with some of the logical consequences that would have to result, (i.e. choking because you are jumping on the couch while eating dinner; leaving him behind because it's time to leave; wearing dirty clothes to school because you left them on the floor and they got walked on; his brother getting hurt b/c he's hitting him, etc.).

How do you handle it? Should the balance of power in our home be less "equal" and more "authoritarian", i.e. DH and I are in charge and DS should do what is expected of him? The neighbourhood kids all come in when their parents call - they whine, but they go in. DS ignores us until we go and physically carry him home - after he runs away from us and we have chased him down (he's lost the priviledge of going outside with friends b/c he won't come home when it's time, so now he doesn't get to go outside







). He's had toys put in the garbage b/c he throws them and breaks them, he doesn't seem bothered and keeps doing it to other toys.

He just ignores us all the time, and I feel like without time-outs or spanking or any kind of "leverage", there is no "motivation" for him to listen. How do we get him to be intrinsically motivated? Is that even possible? We have tried lots of positive reinforcement when he does something and ignoring "bad" behavior, but that doesn't seem to work a whole lot.

I feel like I need Supernanny. I keep thinking if we just sit down and have a "family meeting" and explain what the problems are, and have him help come up with solutions, maybe he'll be more inclined to be part of the solutions, but this seems a little above him.

Help! What do you do when GD and LC don't work??? (Or are not appropriate)?


----------



## Think of Winter (Jun 10, 2004)

If it makes you feel any better, your ds's behavior sounds a lot like my ds, who will be 5 in January. I really understand your concern and frustration, but I think you have a pretty normal kid there.







A few things keep me sane. I try to have as much one-on-one time with him as I can to maintain our connection. When I'm feeling in touch with him I can be a lot more patient and see things from his pov. I try to appreciate our small milestones, like helping his sister when I'm busy, or not being afraid of his endocrinologist. And I try to have faith that everything else will come in time.

I do have a certain tone of voice that gets his attention immediately. I'm not saying that yelling is a good thing, but I haven't been able to give it up completely, and I do it rarely enough that it does stop them in their tracks.

Best wishes to you, mama. A couple of days ago I could have posted the same thing, but we had a good day today.


----------



## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

There are degrees of gentle discipline. But for most of us, gentle doesn't mean no discipline at all. And while you are saying that logical consequences don't work, I'm not actually seeing very many of them referenced in your post.

I would start by figuring out one or two things that are really a problem. Very specific things, not general like "not doing what I ask". And only 1 or 2 at a time or this gets really hard to do. Then figure out what you need to do to set things up for success AND a good logical consequence. Explain it all to him -- why this is important, what you expect him to do, what you think should happen if he doesn't cooperate. Ask him for ideas and feedback and modify accordling if that makes sense. Then implement it every single time, not matter how inconvenient for you.

Take hitting as an example, because this is what I would concentrate on as a priority. First, figure out if there are deeper things going on. Does he get enough one-on-one time with you? Does brother destroy his stuff? Does brother actually provoke things (some little siblings are really good at this trick, depends on age of child). Make sure all the basics are covered -- good sleep, massive amounts of exercise each day, especially outdoors, regular routine, healthy food. Maybe a sport to focus energy and aggression. Then figure out a logical consequence for behavior. Something directly tied to the behavior. Something you can and will implement each and every time. Something immediate. Honestly, for deliberate hitting a younger sibling, by 5 the consequence was being "asked" to play elsewhere until calm at our house. Some people would see this as a time out, but it made sense to me -- kept younger child safe, gave older child chance to calm down, meant I could concentrate on younger child if necessary, not unduly punitive. I didn't care where or for how long, but it had to be away from other children. And if necessary I carried him to his room. Explain consequence ahead of time, when things aren't heated. Implement and repeat ad naseum. But at the same time, when things are going well, be sure to notice. Spend time with both boys showing them how to play together. Its a two, or maybe three, pronged approach -- eliminate triggers and barriers, teach how to do the right thing, consistently impose consequence at deliberate choice to do wrong thing.

All of which can be done with respect for child, understanding of developmental appropriateness of expectations (e.g. don't discipline for things they can't yet do), without hurting or humiliating chid, and with teaching what they should do. Which is my personal definition of GD.

But also pick your battles. Hitting has to stop, so that might be a big one. But maybe you can live with an unflushed toilet -- after all, saving water is good for the larger picture. And be sure you are modeling what you want to see. If you don't respond to his requests politely (even if its saying "I need 5 minutes to finish X before I do Y for you"), then how will he see what to do?

Its hard, and harder for some of us than others. But its do-able. And its worth it.


----------



## reepicheep (Jul 19, 2004)

My son will be 5 in feb and is doing just these same things. I put a sign on the toilet to remind him to lift it up, but flushing is still rare. And just the general 'not listening' thing. Frustrating! Hopefully it's a phase... you're not alone, though.
Rachel


----------



## purplemoon (Sep 24, 2008)

First, I think you are taking the logical consequences a bit too far. They don't include letting someone get beaten or choke to death.









For hitting, the natural consequence is that they can't play with their brother and must play alone until he can play nicely. The consequence to bouncing on the bed is that he doesn't respect his property and loses the bed and gets a sleeping bag until he is sure he will be careful. If he gets up at the meal, he is finished with the meal.

I would be a little weary about taking outside priveledges away because one great way to help behavior is letting kids run and play. Keeping him inside is the logical consequence of course, but I wouldn't tackle that just yet.

Breaking toys? I would pack his toys up and give them to a childrens hospital or shelter where the children will appreciate them and not break them and keep a small box of favorite toys that he will get one at a time. If he breaks them all he has no toys until it is his birthday, christmas, holiday.

I would ignore the flushing issue for now.

Some people say GD and L&L don't mix well, so this is just my take on L&L. I am sure others may pop in with more GD ideas and hopefully you will find some ideas that may help.

Oh, for the outside thing I found a different way that still lets him play and get out energy and fresh air. I would tell him that the time it takes for you to chase him and plead with him to come in is time that you two could have had to play a game (go fish, candyland, etc) and when you have to do all that, you don't have the time. If he comes in easily, sit down and play a game (good transition from outside to inside anyway). When he doesn't, the consequence, which is true, is that you lost that time.


----------



## Roar (May 30, 2006)

How is his behavior at school? What kind of discipline system is in place there?


----------



## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

I have no advice. I do not believe logical concequences 'work' at all - we live consensually in our house - no one rules/we work together. I do not 'punish'. ...But - I did want to add that boys have a testosterone surge at the age of 5. (I think its important to know and be aware of this)


----------



## daniellebluetoo (Jul 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purplemoon* 
For hitting, the natural consequence is that they can't play with their brother and must play alone until he can play nicely. The consequence to bouncing on the bed is that he doesn't respect his property and loses the bed and gets a sleeping bag until he is sure he will be careful. If he gets up at the meal, he is finished with the meal.

I would be a little weary about taking outside priveledges away because one great way to help behavior is letting kids run and play. Keeping him inside is the logical consequence of course, but I wouldn't tackle that just yet.

Breaking toys? I would pack his toys up and give them to a childrens hospital or shelter where the children will appreciate them and not break them and keep a small box of favorite toys that he will get one at a time. If he breaks them all he has no toys until it is his birthday, christmas, holiday. I

I would ignore the flushing issue for now.

Some people say GD and L&L don't mix well, so this is just my take on L&L. I am sure others may pop in with more GD ideas and hopefully you will find some ideas that may help.

Oh, for the outside thing I found a different way that still lets him play and get out energy and fresh air. I would tell him that the time it takes for you to chase him and plead with him to come in is time that you two could have had to play a game (go fish, candyland, etc) and when you have to do all that, you don't have the time. If he comes in easily, sit down and play a game (good transition from outside to inside anyway). When he doesn't, the consequence, which is true, is that you lost that time.

I agree with a lot of this!
BUt I'll just ad my 2 cents
YES< those are great examples of natural consequences! Keep em coming!

toilet, remind him when you see him coming out, or when you have noticed that it's been unflushed, escort him BACK to the bathroom if you must.
I let go on #1, but # 2 ALWAYS needs to be flushed.

The hitting and running away from me out side would drive me NUTS!
I have only one so I'll tell you what I've done, again FWIW.

Hitting, gets a time "away" in my house,( or any house I'm nanny-ing in)
and a talk, we talk about feelings, the golden rule, how to use our words, ect ect ect... The golden rule is HUGE in our house, so is that every one works together to make the house/family work. I may only have one child, but I am NOT any ones maid, every one has their "jobs".

running way.... this is tough, children NEED NEED NEED time outdoors, but the running way IS a safety issue. Maybe take it one day at a time, each day he starts new? If he fails to respond to coming in, then there IS a consequence, he can't go back out side that day, and will then need to help you clean/laudry ect ect ect....

On nice, days when I WANT the kids to play outside, I make the rule that those inside have to help me do housework ect... those that go out side CAN play.... you've never seen kids run to get their shoes on so fast!!!!

I've also "whistle trained" my kids... i KNOW how this sounds, but it's SERIOUSLY a great thing!... my kids KNOW my whistle ANYWHERE, and I can let them play a little further than I would normally because they come when I whistle!!!!! YES, I do the fingers in the mouth, come here whistle!!!

It's basically conditioned response training, try this a few times, call the kids in for treats that aren't usually handed out, those that come get a popsicle on a hot day, those that don't miss out. (but I usually give those kids another try, as in GO out to where you were and I'll call again!)

Try making a game out of it, give hugs and kisses, or call them in to JUST tell them you loved them, or ask what they wanted for dinner, or where their favorite pair of pants are they they have been begging you to mend.... ect ect ect... make it something that they will WANT to know of get , then before you know it you can call and they come EVERY TIME!

I hope that all made sense........


----------



## Ophelia (Feb 16, 2005)

Here's an idea about the struggling to get to the car...do you think it would help if you gave him something to look forward to? Such as, tell him you will all take turns listening to what you want on the radio, and he gets to go first. Are you also giving him warnings "we're going to leave in 5 minutes!"

Also the struggling to get dressed, if he wants to go to school in dirty clothes or pj's, I would just let him go. Eventually he'll learn on his own it may not be the best thing to do. Do you think that would work? One less thing to battle about.


----------



## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Hang in there, mama. This can be so trying.







We've been through plenty of times when DS has had a deep need to "be in charge" of everything. What I've found however, is that this demanding "need" is usually brought on by inner feeling of power_less_ rather than the reverse. As Gordon Neufeld says in his book, _Hold On To Your Kids_, "if a child feels authentically powerful, he doesn't need others to do his bidding." So often, I find that what is happening "on the surface" with DS means that he's feeling the exact opposite on the inside. Feelings of powerlessness bring on a desperate need to control everyone and everything around him... because _internally_ there is a _lack_ of control, he strives to control the _external._ If I'm being truthful, I've been known to do the same.







Only difference is as an adult, I recognize what is going on for me, tend to my inner anxiety and change my behavior. Well, eventually.







Children, being immature and egocentric by nature's design, do not yet possess the ability to do this. They need us to help them.

To further the thoughts of Neufeld, my best friend in "discipline" is attachment. If I am attending to DS in the way that HE needs on a regular basis, then through that attachment comes a general good feeling about our relationship, and therefore a natural desire in him to work with me. For DS, play is the thing. He needs regular play time with me where HE is in charge. It needn't be everyday, all day, but my taking regular time out to play and let DS take the lead for awhile. It satisfies his very natural human need for power, and it also satisfies very nicely, our attachment which is key. I can read him a book, we can go to the zoo and spend all day at the museum, but nothing nurtures our relationship more than when I take time to plop down where DS is, and play. HIS way.

Getting back to my original point, I find that when the balance of power becomes way off like you're describing, and we're headed for a meltdown (for all), the worst thing DH and I can do is lay down the law (i.e., consequences, punishment, etc). It takes what little is left of DS's power and leads him to a place of isolation, them against me. Our attachment completely askew, things go from bad to worse in a hurry. The _only_ way I know to turn a situation like this around is to back way off, look for ways I've been trying to keep his controlling nature at bay and relax my stance. I keep my responses consistently kind and calm and try to avoid getting involved in power struggles. Two things are important here: First, I make more time to spend with DS, special playtime, giving him a place to be in charge safely, let him air what's on his mind through play (finding the roots of the behavior often can do much to relieve it) and most importantly, play directly nurtures our attachment. Second, I look for ways to empower DS. A few different things that come to mind here. For one, I let my own guard down, even let him get away with something that I 'pretend' not to see, let him win an argument if we do happen to get into a power struggle. I make sure not to say NO unless I absolutely have to, look for ways to _work with_ DS if I possibly can. I go the extra mile for him even if I'm tired and don't want to help him think of a way to build a Zoo in the front yard. And the little things: when he's talking to me, I make sure to stop what I'm doing and look him in the eye, really tune in. When he interrupts me, I allow myself to be interrupted and shift my focus to him. When I interrupt his play to give a directive, I do so politely ("connect before you direct," another Neufeldism







), "I can see you're having a great time there, can I interrupt you a moment and ask you a question?" In short, I make sure I'm treating DS in the way that I myself wish to be treated and that along with nurturing our attachment (play is the thing







), he feels good and trustful of our relationship which allows him to let his own guard down. In short, the more I make an effort to work with DS in his world, the more he's able to work with me in mine. But the initial effort has to come from me. I'm continually surprised at how MY behavior changes when DS gets into "Demanding Mode." That kind of behavior can be such a repellent, no? I realize I very quickly lose my ability to continue on the way I usually do with him, that I change my behavior in reaction to his and the negative cycle perpetuates. In the end, I realize that the motivation DS needs is the behavior I show toward him, and again, our healthy/renewed attachment. When our connection is on good footing, DS feels good about himself and this directly contributes to him wanting to be a useful and contributing member of the household.

For us, it's often that DS is not trying to "control" us per se, but needs us to be involved in what he's doing. I have found that one of DS's "love languages" is having things done for him. When he's feeling a little lost or ignored, has spent a good amount of time being independent, he gets to the end of his tether with it and starts asking me to do things that he can surely do himself. This morning is an excellent example, I've been sucked into the computer here and DS has been entertaining himself quite nicely, but he's just asked me to get all his drawing materials. He can do this himself with minimal effort, but he's asked me to do it, the purpose of which is pointed: "you're tuned out mama so I'm going to ask you to do something for me because then I feel like you're still there for me."

*I'm off to gather drawing materials*









Ah, I've rambled a long long way here. Truly, your post is timely. We had a situation in our home recently not unlike the one you described which ended in a meltdown on both our parts a few nights ago. Things tends to cycle in this way for us. The last few days, I've slowed down, given DS more time and attention and things have turned around in a hurry. By now, we are both feeling better and more centered in our relationship, both contributing and taking in a more balanced way.

Lastly, I want to make clear that this coming from my own experiences with DS. How our negative cycles begin and are perpetuated and then, solved. I don't assume that your situation is in lock step. Just my .02 for whatever that's worth. Use what you can if any at all and disregard the rest.









I hope you find some peace soon, mama. The best to you!

Em

ETA: To link this article that helps me time and time again: http://www.naomialdort.com/articles4.html


----------



## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

It can be very frustrating.


----------



## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkeybum* 
I'm not comfortable with some of the logical consequences that would have to result, (i.e. choking because you are jumping on the couch while eating dinner; leaving him behind because it's time to leave; wearing dirty clothes to school because you left them on the floor and they got walked on; his brother getting hurt b/c he's hitting him, etc.)

hum, This is probably just a difference in discipline styles, but I LOVE natural consequences. The chances of him choking to DEATH, slim. Wearing dirty clothing? He obviously doesn't care, he's 5 he would go naked if allowed. I think this is something that you want for him not something he wants for himself.

Good luck!


----------



## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

How do you handle it? Should the balance of power in our home be less "equal" and more "authoritarian", i.e. DH and I are in charge and DS should do what is expected of him?
While I understand that many families on MDC use Consensual Living as their method/lifestyle, this does not work for our family. Dh and I use what would be considered "authoritative" parenting, which is different than the "authoritarian" methods that make many here cringe.

I think one important thing to point out here is that there is a difference between "authoritarian" and "authoritative" discipline. Authoritarian parenting is considered a punitive, my-way-or-the-highway, kind of attitude. Authoritative parenting is what I'd consider a "benign dictatorship." It's requiring obedience most of the time but being willing to compromise and pick your battles, while applying natural or logical consequences when necessary.

At our house, the children are generally expected to do what they're asked unless they can present me with a good reason to the contrary. We avoid physical punishment but do apply other consequences to deal with troublesome behaviors.

This blog post gives a bullet point list of the differences in style:
http://warriorshand.blogspot.com/200...oritarian.html

This section in google books gives a good explanation of being authoritative.
http://books.google.com/books?id=SQ-...esult#PPA50,M1

Here's one interview that talks about the difference:
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-flc/flc-f016.html


----------



## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

Should the balance of power in our home be less "equal" and more "authoritarian"
You are the only one that can answer for you but in my family the answer is yes. Authortive doesn't need to mean bossy and uncaring of our childs feelings and opnions but rather knowlegment that one is the adult with more life experience with the gift of being a parent and having only there best intrest in your heart. We will enforce appropiate behavior we wont allow our child to be hurt nor hurt others if I need to impose a non threating conquence to prevent a dangerous natural conquence then I will.

Deanna


----------



## jtbuko (Sep 28, 2006)

Great thread! We went through a really rough patch between 4.5 and 5. Some things that helped us were stepping back to look at our big picture and making some major shifts to give our DS more of what he needed. For him, it was less daycare kids here in the morning, his own space to retreat to (we gave him his own room, but probably a special desk or chair or corner or even a curtain around his bed would have done the job), more one on one attention, and more responsibility. I feel like we have reached the other side of this rough patch, and we are now watching him make lots of cool developmental jumps.


----------



## AuntNi (Feb 26, 2003)

We recently had to go more "authoritarian," based on the recommendations in Beyond Time-Out. http://www.amazon.com/dp/1402752970/...l_611o7bu5i7_e

I was skeptical when I heard about it, but one thing that really struck a chord with me is that kids who have too much power in the family can suffer from anxiety. That was totally the case with our DD. I've always felt that giving her freedom to make choices, ie "where do you want to go as a family today?" were empowering to her. But really, I've realized that the responsibility was just freaking her out.

I find this system to be very do-able, and my daughter's anxiety level has been soooooo much lower since we started. We are still co-sleeping, which is totally a no-no in her book, but I figure you've got to take what works and leave the rest, right?


----------



## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Embee* 
Hang in there, mama. This can be so trying.







We've been through plenty of times when DS has had a deep need to "be in charge" of everything. What I've found however, is that this demanding "need" is usually brought on by inner feeling of power_less_ rather than the reverse. As Gordon Neufeld says in his book, _Hold On To Your Kids_, "if a child feels authentically powerful, he doesn't need others to do his bidding." So often, I find that what is happening "on the surface" with DS means that he's feeling the exact opposite on the inside. Feelings of powerlessness bring on a desperate need to control everyone and everything around him... because _internally_ there is a _lack_ of control, he strives to control the _external._ If I'm being truthful, I've been known to do the same.







Only difference is as an adult, I recognize what is going on for me, tend to my inner anxiety and change my behavior. Well, eventually.







Children, being immature and egocentric by nature's design, do not yet possess the ability to do this. They need us to help them.

To further the thoughts of Neufeld, my best friend in "discipline" is attachment. If I am attending to DS in the way that HE needs on a regular basis, then through that attachment comes a general good feeling about our relationship, and therefore a natural desire in him to work with me. For DS, play is the thing. He needs regular play time with me where HE is in charge. It needn't be everyday, all day, but my taking regular time out to play and let DS take the lead for awhile. It satisfies his very natural human need for power, and it also satisfies very nicely, our attachment which is key. I can read him a book, we can go to the zoo and spend all day at the museum, but nothing nurtures our relationship more than when I take time to plop down where DS is, and play. HIS way.

Getting back to my original point, I find that when the balance of power becomes way off like you're describing, and we're headed for a meltdown (for all), the worst thing DH and I can do is lay down the law (i.e., consequences, punishment, etc). It takes what little is left of DS's power and leads him to a place of isolation, them against me. Our attachment completely askew, things go from bad to worse in a hurry. The _only_ way I know to turn a situation like this around is to back way off, look for ways I've been trying to keep his controlling nature at bay and relax my stance. I keep my responses consistently kind and calm and try to avoid getting involved in power struggles. Two things are important here: First, I make more time to spend with DS, special playtime, giving him a place to be in charge safely, let him air what's on his mind through play (finding the roots of the behavior often can do much to relieve it) and most importantly, play directly nurtures our attachment. Second, I look for ways to empower DS. A few different things that come to mind here. For one, I let my own guard down, even let him get away with something that I 'pretend' not to see, let him win an argument if we do happen to get into a power struggle. I make sure not to say NO unless I absolutely have to, look for ways to _work with_ DS if I possibly can. I go the extra mile for him even if I'm tired and don't want to help him think of a way to build a Zoo in the front yard. And the little things: when he's talking to me, I make sure to stop what I'm doing and look him in the eye, really tune in. When he interrupts me, I allow myself to be interrupted and shift my focus to him. When I interrupt his play to give a directive, I do so politely ("connect before you direct," another Neufeldism







), "I can see you're having a great time there, can I interrupt you a moment and ask you a question?" In short, I make sure I'm treating DS in the way that I myself wish to be treated and that along with nurturing our attachment (play is the thing







), he feels good and trustful of our relationship which allows him to let his own guard down. In short, the more I make an effort to work with DS in his world, the more he's able to work with me in mine. But the initial effort has to come from me. I'm continually surprised at how MY behavior changes when DS gets into "Demanding Mode." That kind of behavior can be such a repellent, no? I realize I very quickly lose my ability to continue on the way I usually do with him, that I change my behavior in reaction to his and the negative cycle perpetuates. In the end, I realize that the motivation DS needs is the behavior I show toward him, and again, our healthy/renewed attachment. When our connection is on good footing, DS feels good about himself and this directly contributes to him wanting to be a useful and contributing member of the household.

For us, it's often that DS is not trying to "control" us per se, but needs us to be involved in what he's doing. I have found that one of DS's "love languages" is having things done for him. When he's feeling a little lost or ignored, has spent a good amount of time being independent, he gets to the end of his tether with it and starts asking me to do things that he can surely do himself. This morning is an excellent example, I've been sucked into the computer here and DS has been entertaining himself quite nicely, but he's just asked me to get all his drawing materials. He can do this himself with minimal effort, but he's asked me to do it, the purpose of which is pointed: "you're tuned out mama so I'm going to ask you to do something for me because then I feel like you're still there for me."

*I'm off to gather drawing materials*









Ah, I've rambled a long long way here. Truly, your post is timely. We had a situation in our home recently not unlike the one you described which ended in a meltdown on both our parts a few nights ago. Things tends to cycle in this way for us. The last few days, I've slowed down, given DS more time and attention and things have turned around in a hurry. By now, we are both feeling better and more centered in our relationship, both contributing and taking in a more balanced way.

Lastly, I want to make clear that this coming from my own experiences with DS. How our negative cycles begin and are perpetuated and then, solved. I don't assume that your situation is in lock step. Just my .02 for whatever that's worth. Use what you can if any at all and disregard the rest.









I hope you find some peace soon, mama. The best to you!

Em

ETA: To link this article that helps me time and time again: http://www.naomialdort.com/articles4.html

what a wonderful post! you said everthing I could never have put together


----------



## donnaintheuae (Feb 19, 2008)

Embee- a thousand thank yous.

I have written down a precis of your post to put on the fridge







.

I have not heard of Neufield before and will seek out that book.

Thanks again







.


----------



## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

I have no advice but wanted to chime in and say that DD is 4.5 and the behaviors described in the OP are her to a T. As are my frustrations.

I keep telling myself that it's her age and this shall pass, but it is SO HARD for me and DH right now. We are 110% opposed to spanking but recently confessed to each other that we now understand why people do it.









It is helpful to at least know that others are going through the same struggles. Ugh!


----------



## mommabear207 (Nov 19, 2007)

i recommend the book Kids, Parents and Power Struggles. Its actually a quick read with lots of examples. I think it would help you to have that family meeting and come up with those essential rules ie no hitting etc. and let ds help come up with consequences. also logical consequences can take place a bit before choking for example takes place like (if jumping on the couch is fine) no eating if your jumping on the couch or like another poster said you get up from the table your done. Also as the book points out there are often reasons behind the behavior taking place and if you address these reasons (ie frustration,not ready for transition, needing your attention etc etc) you resolve these issues and can prevent them from happening in the future. once the situation is cooled talk about what happened and why (how you do this may depend on the child's personality) ie hitting his brother because he didn't want to share. stop the hitting and when he is ready talk-talk about how hitting is not ok, ask him how he felt and why he hit and what he could do instead next time ie say i'm not done with it yet. often with given options kids are willing to work with you.... anyways i really recommend the book it allows you to have standards yet not have to yell or hit or even time out your child and instead focuses on connecting you which always improves future interaction.


----------



## CatherineEL (Apr 20, 2007)

I agree 100% with those who advocate attachment, respect, and responsibility. Also, I love the take on "authoritative" parenting. As I read in the book Indigo Children, (a phrase which has stuck with me) - our children CHOSE us as parents. It was their CHOICE that we parent, guide, and be here for them on this journey, and we all naturally will have to play out these roles to the best of our ability. I also agree with the thought that the children having too much authority in the family creates anxiety. _The lunatics running the asylum, in a way_..... It's like having one person who is capable to captain the ship and letting anyone from off the street take the helm. In certain things we are more capable than our children and it is a very grown up thing to recognize and accept the responsibility of this.

Best of luck mama - I'll be there in a few years.

hugs,
K







: w/S







and our baby P







:


----------



## daisymama12 (Jul 2, 2006)

I just logged on, because I had a rotten night with ds - he has been driving me crazy with the way he competes with his younger brother, asks him questions that he is unable to answer, bugs him, etc.

*Embee*, what you wrote is just what I needed to read. I didn't handle things very well tonight, but tomorrow is a new day.

My dh and I both feel very strongly that the boys have to be civil with one another, at the minimum. But there are better ways of achieving that than rule from on high.

Thanks for the great post


----------



## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Ah thanks, daisymama. Tomorrow is indeed a new day. Your tomorrow is my today...

Yesterday, I let some things DS was doing really get under my skin and fell into a lecture mode if you will. In short, he was being very demanding and whiny (with good reason, he's getting over a nasty cold). I should have been able to see this and contain myself but somehow, the mental energy just wasn't there and I commenced with a tantrum of my own. Things calmed down and we mended, but today he's been challenging as well and it's been a good opportunity for me to approach things differently. It's taken monumental effort on my part but even if he's not quite himself yet, at least I can feel truly good and right about my responses. I know time and my continued "discipline" will help us both heal and move on.

Indeed, life always gives us the opportunities we NEED. It's full of second (third, fourth and hundreth!) chances and I'm eternally grateful for that. I think also that there can be great value in allowing our children to see that we're not perfect. There is great healing in hearing a parent apologize, and an excellent model in seeing how a parent can pull themselves together, change THEIR behavior and work to heal a situation, re-establish that all important connection with a child.

Hope things are better tomorrow.









The best,
Em


----------



## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkeybum* 
Help! What do you do when GD and LC don't work??? (Or are not appropriate)?

I'm tired and might have missed it anyways but what natural consequences have happened so far??

Also, if by 'working' you mean 'eliminates the behavior' you have the wrong goal in mind. He isn't going to turn to you and say dearest mother thank you for pointing out how inappropriate it is to beat the living daylights out of my sibling.







He isn't going to graciously acknowledge your need for him to come home when he's called.







He will, however, through natural consequences and loving parenting, understand WHY things happen the way they do...even if he isn't thrilled with the outcome, and it may or may not affect his decision making







Now, that won't happen at FIVE...but you get the idea









Here's what I would do:

Doesn't flush the toilet after he goes: Volunteers to clean the toilet (with you, of course)

Won't pick up his socks: Volunteers to help with household laundry (with you, of course)

Won't stop hitting his little brother: Hurting others means we want to play alone. Period. Until we can play with kindness.

Won't stop jumping on the bed at bedtime: First, make sure he's good and worn out well before bedtime. They are so energetic at this age! Second, check diet etc. to make sure you aren't revving him up w/extra energy right at bedtime. Third, beds are for sleeping and not jumping. ITA with the bed leaves temporarily and the sleeping bag is used. Not a punishment at all, just a logical 'we aren't going to destroy furniture for your enjoyment' kinda thing.

Won't get dressed for school: Let him be late and experience the consequences at school.

Won't stay at the table while he's eating: Then he's done eating until the next meal.







:

Logical consequences happen well before everyone is royally ticked off or injured. He might not be thrilled with them, and it might not change his behavior immediately...but he will learn the cause and effect of what he's doing over time.

HTH








BellevueMama


----------

