# Anyone use 123 Magic



## lazydaisy (Mar 14, 2003)

Just wondering if this works for you. I've heard good things, so I bought the book.

I'm down with it, but DH has a hard time with the "no talking, no emotion" part. I've been whispering "Just shut up!" under my breath all day


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I don't know what 123 Magic is, but I have silently shouted "shut up!" into the air before, and it really helps!


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## glad2bhome (Dec 21, 2002)

Haven't personally read it but my old mainstream mom friends (not anymore







: ) recommended it so I am wary. Just my .02

~Melissa


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Read it. Wasn't comfortable with it. Seemed much too controlling to me. Also, counting to someone seems so rude, KWIM?

JMO,
Kay


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I read it. It seemed really disrespectful to me. Basically, the idea as I understood it was that you tell your kid to do something, then count to 3, and if they haven't done it by that time they're punished.

Dar


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

I have not read it.

But once I saw another mom in a public place say

"ONE" to her toddler and it was very creepy and controlling. It seemed there was no respect for the child's dignity.

I always get a book from the library first if I'm not sure I will agree with it, before I shell out the money.


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## bunny's mama (Nov 19, 2001)

i was just gonna post this very same question. someone reccommended this book to me on a thread i started over in the toddlers forum, so i bought it and have been reading it.

yes, like others here, i'm bothered by the controlling nature of the author. he seems to get pleasure from punishment, and he is not terribly respectful of children. that said, i have a 32 month old dd who does some things i would like her to stop doing (hitting our new baby, running into the street, trying to climb bookshelves, running away from me in public, are among them). with a new baby, dh & i are even more frustrated and overwhelmed by these behaviors and searching for something to help us.

i have read all about gentle discipline, and in general, this is the way i'd like to be with dd. but the fact is that she is not a child who listens to reason and she continues to do things she has been "talked to" about time after time after time. so while i don't agree with the general philosophy of 123 magic, i do feel that we can use the methods and adapt them to be more respectful (i.e.we don't believe in isolating a child for timeouts. we would sit with her while she is in timeout, we also would not timeout a tantrum, since that is a way of expressing her emotions, and we don't want to give her the message that expresing her emotions is wrong...)

more to say but dd is tantruming as we speak, so i gotta go...


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## sparklemom (Dec 11, 2001)

Have heard negative feedback about this book from loving mothers that I respect.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

I have used it, and while I don't agree with a lot of the book, counting does work. It stops me yelling, it stops arguments, it stops my kids cold (by the time I get to 2), and they think. With dd2 it's mainly when she has to do something right then and doesn't want to, but not doing it isn't an option.


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

I have read this book, and find that the method can easily be adapted if you are not fond of time-outs (which we are not). The consequence of me getting to "that's three" varies according to the situation, but they tend to be logical consequences - for example, DD does something dangerous in the park, I ask her to stop and she does not, so I say, "That's one." She knows we will leave the park if I get to three, so she stops. I don't even really have to tell her what the consequence is, because our consequences make so much sense she can figure them out on her own - I'm not going to take away her video time for drawing on the table, but I will take the markers away for a few days. Plus it is rare that I even use 1-2-3. She really seems to know when I mean business - I think it's because I don't give empty threats.

I don't think the method is disrespectful. It's a lot more respectful than yelling or nagging, and because I do it in a calm voice, and I do it quietly when others are around, it is not humiliating to her, either.


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## bunny's mama (Nov 19, 2001)

lunamom, thank you for your thoughtful post. as i get deeper into this book, i'm looking for adaptation ideas to make it more respectful. i don't want to get into power struggles w/ dd or turn our relationship adversarial.

and you're right. it's far better than yelling, which is what i do when i get to the end of my rope with her...


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## dancingbear (Jun 8, 2002)

I have mixed feelings about the 1-2-3-technique myself. I started using it in desperation. Dd has not respecting me and was out of control. it has worked well for us. Now I am trying to fade ot out and have her respond to more gentle discipline. Her behavior has been extreme. For very "spirited" kids that have low impulse control or whatever..this technique can help them learn boundaries quickly, without yelling, spanking and the like.







:


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## MoonLissa (May 3, 2003)

I have read the book, and like others here, have thought about how I can adapt it to our family. I like the idea of MY remaining calm during conflicts. I think that this was designed more from that point of view rather than to control children. Ultimately parents have to have a certain amount of control for safety issues or whathaveyou. Many parents, especially first timers can easily find themselves out of control. (I know I have.) I was raised with "yelling" and I am working very hard to break that cycle. I believe that this tool really can help keep the boundaries and everyone's self-esteem intact.

Saying "that's one", etc. and applying an appropriate consequence makes sense to me. I like LunaMom's example of leaving the park. Children need to learn that there are consequences to their actions. Most adults know this, right? So, this is not an unfeeling way for that to be taught.

I was "counted" when I was little and then 'The Belt' was applied, so I see 1-2-3 Magic as a much more gentle alternative. I, too, am uncomfortable with isolation time-outs. I am working on an alternative to those. So, I have not as yet put this into practice, though I would like to.

^^Liss


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## mom of girls (Feb 1, 2003)

I have not read the book but I do count - 1,2,3 -- for my dd1. I started when she was a baby (she's a rough and tumble 3yr old now), I wanted to just give her a warning when I was picking her up, moving her, etc. It was a signal that things were about to change -- no punishment was ever implied. Then when the "discipline" started, I would tell her "please use gentle hands with the cat or I will have to move the cat" and if she didn't do it by herself, I would tell her that I was going to move the cat by the time I got to 3 -- that sort of thing. I guess like lunamom mentioned before.

I try very hard not to make it a fear-based thing and just matter-of-fact consequences. We talk a lot, a lot, a lot about consequences -- good and bad. I also constantly ask "is this the best choice you can make?" I never do the counting without telling her the natural consequence of the misbehavior. It works pretty well most of the time -- but some of this stuff, I feel like we just muddle through and I try to reassure both of us that it will get easier!

Does anyone else feel like most parenting books provide overly simplistic solutions? The ones I read each give me another "tool" for dealing and coping, but I don't think I could ever just adopt one method. Everyone's kids are just so different!


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

I have hugely mixed feelings about this technique.

On the one hand, it makes a certain amount of sense. The child knows how long they have to comply to your request before you do something about it. This could be a good tool if used consistently, correctly, and GENTLY. If I remember correctly (I've had this method explained to me but have not read the book myself) nowhere does it state that you "must" hit or time-out or otherwise "punish" your child, and if you have a spirited kid I can totally see how you could use counting to three as a tool to give them an understandable amount of time to get themselves under a little better control.

However, I have seen this method abused, abused, abused. It does not work if the use is inconsistent. And I cannot count the number of times I have been in pubic and heard a very threatening "ONE......TWOOOOO................................. ............." Let the two hang forever in the air..........."TWOOOOOOOO...................TWOOOO OOO" Like you know that if they were in the house it would be "ONE.....TWOOOO....................THREE! (SMACK)"

I just can't handle the whole "I'm counting, do what I say...now....or else....see, we're on two....on two....gonna get to three....as soon as we're done with two...." It totally disgusts my DH as well, who likes the idea but hates when parents use it as a threat or when they draw out the process. As he explains it to me, the whole idea is that you are giving a predictable amount of time, because kids often cannot just stop a behavior immediately and it helps to give them a buffer, where they know how long they have and can get control of themselves. The problem is, when it is used as a threat the effect is totally ruined, because instead of being a matter of "ok, I know I need to get control of myself by the time we get to three" it becomes a matter of "hey, I can keep doing this until we get to three!", especially when you have a parent drawing out the process.


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## MoonLissa (May 3, 2003)

Nicole...the book does not use the technique of counting as you are describing. I see your point about not wanting to use something that is threatening or misused. I would suggest reading the book, if for no other reason, than simply to get the proper understanding of that particular technique.

I believe 1-2-3 Magic is intended to be used as a gentle method that honors both the parent and child. It can be used to provide consistency in discipline. Discipline and punishment, in my mind, are two completely different things. Children definitely need discipline, as do adults. Punishment is adult-oriented and imposes power from the outside (think "prison"). Discipline gives ownership of a problem and present an opportunity to solve a problem with dignity intact. Adults need to keep discipline throughout their lives or the consequences can sometimes mean punishment. Discipline is a life-long tool.

I see simple 1-2-3 counting as ineffective. I was "counted"....One....Two....Two and a half....two and three quarters.....SMACK!! This was not effective in making me "disciplined" rather it made me sneaky. So, in striving to find effective discipline techiniques that are in line with my feelings of AP, no spanking, this is something we are considering. Until now I have been using a verson of "counting". I use "Lions...Tigers....Bears"....I realized recently that it is a threatening technique in many ways. Though, I use it sort of like momofgirls does...By the time I get to "bears", my ds knows that I will pick him up (if I've asked him to get into the car) or take him upstairs if I've told him that it is time for bath ...etc. Today (mommy very hormonal lacking patience day) I used it to get him into the car (we were going to get some breakfast for me since I didn't have any protein rich food in the house). He sighed and said "You say Lions,Tigers,Bears a lot." I aske him what he would like me to do instead. He said "just be happy!". I told him that it's tough for me to act happy when I am frustrated that he doesn't help me do something that I am asking him nicely for. This conversation really gave me somethings to think about.

I'm off to take a nap and mull all of this over....

Blessings,
^^Liss


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

MoonLissa is right - please don't confuse 1-2-3 Magic with the "counting" you might hear parents do: "You'd better stop that, mister, or you're in big trouble...one...two...you'd better not let me get to three or you're gonna get it...two-and-a-half...get your hand off there RIGHT NOW...okay, that's it, THREE!!!" Followed, of course, by a smack or yelling or dragging the kid away by the arm.

1-2-3 Magic looks like this: You explain the method to the child before you ever use it. The book does recommend time-out as the consequence, but as I stated above, I've substituted more logical consequences and this works well for our family. Then, when you ask your child to stop something inappropriate (or start something) and she doesn't comply, you say calmly, "That's one." You don't get angry or threaten or say anything else, but if she does not respond to that you continue with, "That's two," and if you get to three, there is a consequence. The book does not stop there, though - the authors talk about how you can't expect well-behaved children if you don't spend a lot of time with them and give them a lot of positive attention, love, praise, and so on.

People who are not comfortable with ANY kind of consequence that is imposed by the parent would not like this method, of course, but in my family, we do discipline this way. It works for us. And we actually started using it because we were so against punishment or time-outs that we realized that our daughter had become pretty defiant due to the fact that all that ever happened was that Mommy and Daddy got a little angry! We were actually yelling a lot because we DIDN'T impose consequences - make sense? Once we agreed on this method things became a lot calmer and happier in our house!

I don't believe in one-size-fits-all parenting, though, and agree that this might not work for everyone. Plus, we don't use it for everything ourselves!


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## MoonLissa (May 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by LunaMom_
*... as I stated above, I've substituted more logical consequences and this works well for our family. Then, when you ask your child to stop something inappropriate (or start something) and she doesn't comply, you say calmly, "That's one." You don't get angry or threaten or say anything else, but if she does not respond to that you continue with, "That's two," and if you get to three, there is a consequence. ... we actually started using it because we were so against punishment or time-outs that we realized that our daughter had become pretty defiant due to the fact that all that ever happened was that Mommy and Daddy got a little angry! We were actually yelling a lot because we DIDN'T impose consequences - make sense? ...
I don't believe in one-size-fits-all parenting, though, and agree that this might not work for everyone. Plus, we don't use it for everything ourselves!*
I have snippped this a bit. I think if one were to use the 1-2-3Magic method and were interested in modifying, as we are, this is an excellent way to go. We don't use time-outs in our house other than sometimes I have put my ds on his bed during a tantrum (his) and then I leave his room briefly, but that is really to get MYSELF and my temper in check (so that I don't have one!). :LOL

I think that by naming a consequence, the child then makes a choice about whether or not to continue the undesired action (whatever it may be). Some would argue that some children will not understand. I think that is where your knowledge of your own child comes very much into play and the ability to choose appropriate consequences according to age and maturity level. The book definitely encourages people to think of the method as a more positive alternative to isolation (time-outs) or violent punishment (spanking).

Thank you, Lunamom for your insights and for sharing this. I am planning to implement this method and use your modification.

^^Liss


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

You're welcome!









Just so you know, I come off really good in print, but I have a hard time with consistency and with keeping my temper in check...sigh...I need to follow my own advice better!


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## MoonLissa (May 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by LunaMom_
*You're welcome!









Just so you know, I come off really good in print, but I have a hard time with consistency and with keeping my temper in check...sigh...I need to follow my own advice better!







*
Gotcha! We're all human!







You are not alone!

^^Liss


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## Nanner (Apr 12, 2002)

I have not read 123 Magic, but I do count with my 33 mth old dd. A typical scenario is this
(After ample warning)
Me: "It's time to get in the car now" (cheerily)
Her: just sitting there.
Me: "We need to leave right now, I have a book for you to look at in the car. Let's go." (still cheerily, but firmer)
Her; still just sitting there
Me: "Ok, I will count to three and if you are not heading for the car by 3 I will pick you up and take you to the car"

It often does not get to the counting part- some days I don't use it at all, others I use it maybe a dozen times!
I try to not make it a punishment. I started it b/c dd was too young to understand "2 minutes" or whatever and it was what I came up with to give her a concrete time of when she needed to do something.
I also use it when I am starting to get frustrated or we are in a big hurry. It keeps me calm when I can't mentally muster up humor or whatever else to get her motivated.
She usually moves by 2 and she actually likes this method most of the time, as she really likes to know exactly what is happening and when. *And* it gives her power, while I get compliance. She has the power b/c she gets to make the choice (go by 2, or Mommy carries her).
I don't see this as anti-gentle discipline at all.
I also think this type of thing is best done without a threat, more of a matter-of-fact way. And it won't work for parents or all kids.
So that's my 2 cents!
Sara


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## MoonLissa (May 3, 2003)

Nanner...I think it's great that you use counting as you describe.
I think that when counting is used THAT way it is very effective and gentle for discipline. I think the criticism of counting is mostly about parents who use simple counting and at "THREE" the child gets smacked or faces some other consequence that is really unreasonable and/or inappropriate.

Thank you everyone for your viewpoints. This is a great discussion!









^^Liss


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

We use it pretty much as described in the book. It works beautifully for us when we stick to the process. I guess I don't have any problem whatsoever with the idea of parents controlling children though. I think that's a huge part of my job as a parent, but to each his own.

What I like about it is that dh and I don't yell any more and I don't have to repeat myself a million times. My older child (5) is extremely strong willed. Reasoning with her is largely pointless as she tunes out after two words or else wants to take the issue to the Supreme Court. With this method, she is much more likely to listen to me and just move on.

I don't normally make her go to her room for the time outs. She just goes to a quiet corner designated for the purpose. She is not traumatized by the time outs in the least. She doesn't like them because she has to stop playing and sit still for a few minutes. I have a hard time seeing that as draconian.

She actually has told me that it makes behaving well easier for her in that it provides a calm, non-yelling "warning" with the counting. We are starting to use it with our two and a half year old with very good results also, although by nature she is a much more compliant child, so I don't think she'll end up in time out too much.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Like this thread needs another post from someone who hasn't read the book...

I count with our almost 4 y.o. ds. For example, when he's in the pool and it's time to get out, it might go something like this:

"Time to get out of the pool."
"No, I don't want to. I'm not getting out of the pool."
"Hmm. Ok, either you can get out by yourself or I can get you out for you. Which would you like to do?"

Depending on the situation, it might not go any further than this, since he likes doing things for himself.

"I don't choose either. I'm staying in the pool." The first time he said he doesn't choose either, I was quite taken aback! :LOL He was catching on. So that's when I started implementing counting. No matter what conclusion, it works. Either he gets himself out or I take him out. And he really hates it when I do something for him.

It eliminated the hemming and hawing, begging, hollering and occasional swatting. Of course, this only works when I have the presense of mind to use it, and not jump immediatly to yelling.







:


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

The 1-2-3 Magic counting is different than what many of you are doing. It is not "by the time I count to three you'd better have done...."

Let's assume dd is doing something she knows is not allowed.

Me: dd, please stop smearing frosting on the cat.
She continues to do it.
Me: That's one for smearing the cat.
She continues, whether immediately or a minute or two later/
Me: That's two.
Again, she plasters the cat with frosting.
Me: That's three and time out.

My comments are said in a normal tone of voice. After a few weeks of this, I rarely got to three. If she's snotty about going to time out, I say, "That's three, go to time out and an extra 5 minutes for your mouth," or something like that.

She knows what the logical progression is. She knows that she must stop icing the pet, or she will cool her heels for a few minutes. It gives her fair warning and the opportunity to control herself, which is something she can be proud of.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by EFmom_
*
Me: That's three and time out.
*
Somehow to me what you wrote sounded exactly like " by the time I count to three you'd better have done...."

It also seems that a kid would quickly figure out that any time her was doing something "not allowed" he could go ahead and do it twice more before he would be punished. Actually, I can imagine kids having great fun working the system like that...

I think time to transition is important, more for some kids than for others. With the pool example, I can't even conceive of telling my young kid, "It's time to get out of the pool" without first having said told her when we had 10 minutes left, then 5, then 1, and sometimes even counting down seconds.

I guess for me the test of respectful parenitng is how I would feel if someone did it to me. Rain sometimes says, "We need to leave in ten minutes so we can get to rehearsal on time" and that feels okay. However, if it were time to leave and I wasn't going and she started counting at me, that would feel crummy.

And I think having kids come up with the punishment they 'deserve' is just wrong. If you're chosing to punish, at least take the responsibility and admit that you're the one inflicting the punishment. Having the child chose creates a double-bind, where the child is forced to harm himself in some way.

Dar


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:

Somehow to me what you wrote sounded exactly like " by the time I count to three you'd better have done...."
Well, it's not. My mom used to do the type of counting to which you refer, so I understand what you are talking about. Maybe you'd need to see it in action, or read the book or see the video to grasp the difference.

People who haven't used it usually assume the same thing you are doing--that the kid will work up to 2 gleefully, but that doesn't happen either. They seem to view it as an opportunity for self-control to kick in.

We obviously have different desired outcomes for discipline. I expect my child to learn to follow certain rules. I find 1-2-3 Magic does that without hitting or yelling or humiliating, so for us it's great. Your priorities are different, so it's not the method for you.

For your example, I would give dd a five or ten minute warning if it were time to leave. But assuming we do need to leave and she won't get going after I tell her it's time, I think it's much less annoying for her to hear me say quietly "That's one" than it is to have me start yelling at her. Personally, I'm not willing or able to just hang around all day if she doesn't want to leave. Maybe you are, and that's cool.

Believe me, I don't have any problem with letting the child know that I'm disciplining her. But she does have the decision to make as to whether she wants to obey or to go to time out. And we clearly differ in that I don't see her "harmed" in a normal time out which consists of sitting quietly for a few minutes.


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## bunny's mama (Nov 19, 2001)

EFmom, i totally agree with you.

and i think it would be good if folks actually read the book before they decided to assume what it's all about by knowing the title and then criticising it based on that.

i have come to believe that different kinds of children need different kinds of discipline. believe me, we've tried less "controlling" methods with dd. i was raised with VERY controlling parents and i vowed to never be like them. but the fact is that i happened to give birth to a very intelligent, strong-willed child, who totally non-controlling discipline just didn't work for.

using the pool example, i could say "10 more minutes til we have to leave...5 more minutes...1 more minute...10 more seconds...okay, time to go" and she wouldn't budge. she'd say something like "one more minute" (which, of course would not be the end of that, then she'd want just one more and another etc.) or "i want to stay" or whatever. no amount of validation ("honey, it looks like you're having a lot of fun and it's really hard ot leave" etc) would do a thing to get her out of the pool. meanwhile i'm getting angrier and angrier at her because we're late for something else, or we just have to get home or whatever. now i give the 10, 5 and 1 minute warnings (because i do think this is important) and then i say "time to go" when she says no, i start with "that's 1" and man, you oughta see how fast she gets outta the pool.

only on really bad days do i ever even get to 3 more than once.

again, we all have differeing views of what works as far as discipline goes in our own families. i am actually pretty horrified at TCS and other methods that espouse letting children make all the decisions. i am a psychotherapist who has worked with many children and families and the really permissive parenting style can do just as much damage as the really authoritarian one. IMO, kids need to be taught boundaries and limits, and that sometimes they can't get everything just the way they want it (that's how the world works).


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## summermom (Nov 20, 2001)

totally OT but I just wanted to say how glad I am to see you again, bunny's mama!















but why are you no longer "sweet bunny's " mama? Is she no longer sweet?


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## sugarmoon (Feb 18, 2003)

Quote:

i am actually pretty horrified at TCS and other methods that espouse letting children make all the decisions. i am a psychotherapist who has worked with many children and families and the really permissive parenting style can do just as much damage as the really authoritarian one. IMO, kids need to be taught boundaries and limits, and that sometimes they can't get everything just the way they want it (that's how the world works).

alleluia!

I am often (silently) aghast at the level of permissiveness I see and hear about in AP circles. I think it is due, in part, to the lack of role modeling for respectful and gentle discipline methods that actually involve some discipline. Many moms and dads know that they don't want to yell, scream, threaten and spank (or worse) but have never been exposed other methods. Especially since 1-2-3 magic and the like are generally implemented quietly between the parent and child, and would not be obvious to an observer.

I think *many* "methods" get a bad rap because of people who misues them... timeouts, counting etc.

As I read this message board, I often feel that this is one area I am the least "AP" about, so it is nice to find some common viewpoints on this thread.

All that said, I think that the bottom line that different approaches will work for different children, parents, families, situations, etc.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I think many people have a hard time understanding parenting that isn't "permissive" and yet doesn't include any kind of punishment (such as "logical consequences"). I have a harmonious parenting style, which is pretty similar to TCS (which isn't a parenting style at all, it's actually a philosophy). Still, I get my needs met, I'm not walked on, and my kid does things like wash dishes and clean the catbox. It's not about *anyone* making 'all the decisions', it's about people living together, workig together, and meeting everyone's needs respectfully.

To bring this back on topic, I did read a good bit of 123 Magic. I also read the guy's website, which is icky, and somewhere online there's a really nice essay by an AP-type mama about her experiences when she tried this system. I don't think the system is a gentle or respectful way to discipline a child.

Dar


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## laralou (Nov 27, 2001)

Just want to say I am the worst about stretching it out. I give him to the count of three to finish up what he is doing and come do what I ask, but if I can tell he needs more time, I add in "Two and a half, two and three quarters, etc."

I haven't read the book. We don't use it as a threat, but as a transition as someone mentioned above.

The book was recommended by my LLL leader.


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