# Sister decided to circ - what next?? Update #58



## Leiahs (Jul 29, 2005)

I sent my sister a wonderful package about a month ago. A few hand-picked articles, the Mothering circumcision reprint, religious pamphlets, and a TOTALLY heartfelt letter explaining my turnaround on the issue. And I included it with a box of baby boy clothes that cost me $38 to ship.

I also followed up with a link to the story of the death of the Canadian boy.

Today I get an email, which frankly, I almost expected. My sister is in her very young twenties, got pregnant on almost an impulse after a scare (they weren't trying, originally), and just seems way too immature to me to really be ready to be a parent. But she will be, and very soon.

She and her husband have decided to "do the surgery", because to them, "it feels like the right thing". And then she says thank you for the information, taking time to send emails, and sorry I forgot to call you on your birthday. Laughs about me getting so old (?? 27??) and says talk to you soon!







:

I know I need to follow up. How would YOU do it? This is my second sister I've tried to reach and reason with. My other sister had already circ'd one boy before I researched circ, and her UA husband thought it was funny to joke about my intact son not being "part of the covenant", so those two complications kept her from being reached. But this sister, man, I feel like such a failure already.







: The only person I've ever convinced is a friend who only has girls and may not have any more children.

I can't stand the thought of another nephew being carved up to suit societies stupid STUPID <insert words I never say here> "ideals" about how little boys should look in their PRIVATE parts.

I feel like shooting back and email saying, "Oh really? You feel its right for YOU? You and your husband? What do you think your unborn son feels is right for him?"

But I'm refraining for now...maybe that approach would be a mistake. Man, I even included in my letter my mother's letter of regret to me.

I totally feel like this is a "my husband is circ'd and wants it, so I'm not fighting it" deal.







:







:







:


----------



## InfoisPower (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:

I feel like shooting back and email saying, "Oh really? You feel its right for YOU? You and your husband? What do you think your unborn son feels is right for him?"
I'd feel exactly the same way, in fact I probably would shoot off my big mouth and say just that.








Have you tried, "Would you feel the same way were the baby to be a daughter? If not why not, if it is a cultural norm?

Kudos to you for being such a caring sister and auntie!


----------



## tuansprincess (Oct 25, 2005)

I sent a very researched e-mail to a friend and got a snotty reply. I am sending another one - sending her everything I can thing of and not sugar-coating anything. I will let you know how that approach works. Maybe I can undo the doc's fear-mongering with some of my own.







:


----------



## titania8 (Feb 15, 2007)

"yea, i can see how that would feel like the right thing to do. i mean, its not like you care about what the baby has to say on it. and it is you who is going to have to look at the hideous organ for what, 5 whole years??? god, how could you stand it? nevermind that it will hurt him, its not like you know him and care about him yet anyway, right? "

sorry, im feeling cranky.







that is probably not what i would say, but i would want to.


----------



## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I would email more info and ask her to please reconsider and let her son decide for himself. I would send her the link that explains why so many men are so adament that their sons are circed like them (I'm sorry I don't have that link handy). I would send her a link to circ complications and a video.

I hope they will really think about it and in the end decide not to do it.

You should be proud that you are doing your best to inform people!!


----------



## Neth Naneth (Aug 11, 2006)

How frustrating, perhaps if you sent her a link to a video she would be more inclined to look at the "operation" for what it is. Hopefully she read the articles that you sent, I can't imagine why she didn't change her mind. Talking on the phone might also help, because you could answer questions she has. I mean if she said that it is cleaner, you could reassure her that is a myth. If she brought up UTI then you could explain that the chances of an intact male getting a blatter infection is 1 in 100, which can be cured with antibiotics and you could point out that the risk involved in circ'ing for complications are 2-10%. I was 20 when I had my DS, he is intact, so it is possible to educate her regardless of age. I feel for you though, I really hope she changes her mind.


----------



## Tinker (Mar 1, 2007)

If you have already gently provided info, I would send her the video. Just tell her if she's sure that's what she wants to do, then she needs to watch this. That's what I would do.


----------



## Jasmyn's Mum (May 24, 2004)

I think if the video doesn't do it, I don't know what would


----------



## myfairbabies (Jun 4, 2006)

I know how you feel. Dh's sister is pregnant (not sure of the sex yet) and she and her dh want to circ. She's even watched a video!







: She said she wanted to throw up, but apparently, her dh's need for them to match trumps her son's well being. I'm still going to try though, actually, dh and I are going to work on him now, since I think she would do whatever he wanted (she's kind of like that).


----------



## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

I don't think this will sway her and I doubt it's allowed it that UA to tell you what I think about her and her husband, but that Canadian boy who died because of his circumcision probbably looked *A LOT* like _this_ boy:

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...c-db175d596a97

You leave him intact, you avoid this. These pictures are tragic, as is the death of the boy in the Canadian case.


----------



## tuansprincess (Oct 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheacoby* should look like.

Hope this helps.


----------



## Leiahs (Jul 29, 2005)

Guess what, I sent her 2 videos with my information packet. One was the D.O.C "The Prepuce" video (I love it because it shows just how worthwhile the foreskin actually is), and also, I think it was the 5 or 10 min version of the really horrible makes-you-wanna-puke circ video.

I *honestly* doubt she gave anything but a cursory glance at anything I sent her, based on her reply.

I am thinking of taking the daughter approach. I think I saw someone say on this forums something like, "Imagine you had a newborn daughter. When she's born, you count every finger and toe, everything's there, everything's perfect, and you breathe a sigh of relief. Then suddenly you find out something is wrong, and the day after her birth you have to send her in for surgery. You are frought with worry, so much that you can't sit still and you're maybe even crying. Now imagine that you have a perfect newborn son, and the very day after his birth, you _willingly_ send him in for _cosmetic_ surgery. Why wouldn't you have the same emotional reaction?"

I want to bite her head off, really. Make her understand how flippin' angry this attitude makes me, and from _my own little sister!!_ I think I might just ask her to explain more for now, and see what I have to work with (to the tune of, "Oh really? Just what makes you think it's good for you guys? What sort of thought and research have you put into it? It better be a dang good excuse, because you'll have a lot of explaining to do when he's older."). If it's just "because DH says so" I might become really nasty. Which I've never done to a family member in my life. But it took someone being completely frank with me for me to really start realizing what was wrong with the whole idea. I also wonder if my mom, who I don't think is anti-circ but still regrets how upset she became after my brother's circ, would be willing to talk to her. But since she caved to my dad back then, I'm not sure she would be a good advocate for standing up to a DH issue, which is what I think it is. (Sis is probably thinking that *he* has nephews that are circ'd, *she* has nephews that are circ'd, so it's just the "normal" thing and heck, you gotta be mainstream, right?)

Good heavens, I'm so upset I'm shaking while I type. BTW, CalenandEllasmomma, thank you for the PM. I will definitely share your story with her and send on the offer for someone to talk to.


----------



## Leiahs (Jul 29, 2005)

Ooh, Tuanprincess, you posted the same time as I did. But you remind me -

Isn't there an article out there somewhere about how boys generally don't know the status of their fathers, or some sort of research about how they are emotionally (non)affected by the difference in status? Man, this is really vague, isn't it? I feel like I've just read it within the last couple weeks, though.


----------



## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Leiahs, I understand how you feel. I tried to get my SIL to consider not circumcising (my brother never listens to a word I say), but of course it was done anyway. I did try this:

If you insist on having your baby boy circumcised, PLEASE make sure he gets adequate pain relief - both EMLA cream AND a dorsal penile nerve block. They won't eliminate the pain, but they will reduce it. Make sure you and/or DH stays with him at all times, to make sure the anesthetic gets administered, and to make sure the doctor gives it enough time to take effect (imagine a dentist drilling immediately after a Novacaine shot!)

The doctor probably won't tell you that he will not remove all the foreksin, but will leave quite a bit for your son to grow into. He might not even look circumcised to you, once the wound has healed. Doctors started performing "loose" circumcisions in response to the number of men who experience lifelong problems with painful erections, due to too much foreskin being removed. Some parents go so far as having their sons circumcised AGAIN, because it doesn't "look" right to them; I wish doctors were more upfront with parents about what to expect.

Because of this remaining foreskin, the risk of adhesions (where the foreskin tries to heal itself back onto the glans) is increased. Many doctors recommend pulling back the remaining foreskin an applying Vaseline at eery diaper change. If adhesions form anyway, LEAVE THEM ALONE! Eventually most adhesions will release (certainly be puberty). Some doctors and parents insist on tearing adhesions apart, which is not only very painful, but creates a new open wound, which is a potential site for infection and scarring.

Of course in the first few weeks you want to watch very carefully for signs of infection. Also bring him in IMMEDIATELY if there is more than a few drops of blood in his diaper.

About the time your son starts potty learning, watch for signs of meatal stenosis. This is a narrowing of the urethra, caused by scar tissue forming around the opening. Normally the foreskin protects the urethra; meatal stenosis is found almost exclusively in circumcised males. Watch for a very forceful urine stream, or other evidence of restricted flow. Sometimes the restriction is so severe that surgery is required to open it up again.

Leiahs, if that doesn't scare her off, at least you'll know you did everything you could to make sure your nephew gets pain relief, hopefully minimize his chances of other problems. And as to your question - my DH and his brother (both circ'ed) were in their 40's when they learned that their father had been intact! Our sons noticed that their Dad's glans was exposed, but they just assumed that he kept his foreksin retracted - it NEVER occurred to them that his foreskin had been cut off!


----------



## Tinker (Mar 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nd_deadhead* 
Leiahs, I understand how you feel. I tried to get my SIL to consider not circumcising (my brother never listens to a word I say), but of course it was done anyway. I did try this:

If you insist on having your baby boy circumcised, PLEASE make sure he gets adequate pain relief - both EMLA cream AND a dorsal penile nerve block. They won't eliminate the pain, but they will reduce it. Make sure you and/or DH stays with him at all times, to make sure the anesthetic gets administered, and to make sure the doctor gives it enough time to take effect (imagine a dentist drilling immediately after a Novacaine shot!)


And did they stay with him?


----------



## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

I have no idea. They live 2 states away, and we have only seen them once since the baby was born. I don't know my SIL well at all, and in the interest of family harmony I simply can't bring it up. It would break my heart if she smiled and said "Oh, he was only gone 10 minutes, and he was sound asleep when they brought him back to me!"

My 12-year-old twin sons will be spending a week there in June - they might say something, since they were as disappointed as we were that they circumcised the baby.


----------



## Leiahs (Jul 29, 2005)

nd_deadhead, can I copy/paste what you said there into an email to my sister if she persists in this stupidity?

I have to tell you all, I spent most of last night awake and mentally typing hate mail to my sister, and mentally cutting off all family ties, I am so distraught over all of this.


----------



## titania8 (Feb 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leiahs* 
nd_deadhead, can I copy/paste what you said there into an email to my sister if she persists in this stupidity?

I have to tell you all, I spent most of last night awake and mentally typing hate mail to my sister, and mentally cutting off all family ties, I am so distraught over all of this.









i can't imagine how hard this must be for you. i fear i will be following in your footsteps in a year or so though. sigh. why does this have to be so hard? why is it legal to do this to babies? or anyone for that matter.







:


----------



## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leiahs* 
BTW, CalenandEllasmomma, thank you for the PM. I will definitely share your story with her and send on the offer for someone to talk to.

I was going to tell you to send your sister this mama's story, so I am glad that CalenandEllasmomma sent you a PM!


----------



## Tinker (Mar 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nd_deadhead* 
I have no idea. They live 2 states away, and we have only seen them once since the baby was born. I don't know my SIL well at all, and in the interest of family harmony I simply can't bring it up. It would break my heart if she smiled and said "Oh, he was only gone 10 minutes, and he was sound asleep when they brought him back to me!"

My 12-year-old twin sons will be spending a week there in June - they might say something, since they were as disappointed as we were that they circumcised the baby.

Oh I hate that!!!! I had a "person" (for lack of more appropriate wording) Tall me that she couldn't watch her sons circ because it was "just too horrible to watch".





















Well if it was too horrible for you to watch, how do you think it was for him to have to endure? Oh I just can't even pretend to like her anymore.

And good for you boys if they do say something. *sigh* even If we don't save 1 baby now from suffering, at least we know our children will NEVER do this to theirs.


----------



## bluetoes (May 12, 2007)

When is the baby due? All you can do is keep trying. To use myself as an example on another issue I was quite convinced I wasn't breastfeeding. It's hard to desribe now since it seems like madness, but I just couldn't imagine it, had body & modesty issues, and felt this sort of panicky pressure when I thought about it. I had a friend who talked to me about it throughout my pregnancy and was a real lactivist, but in a sweet and gentle way. At one point I even sent her an 'it's not going to happen' email thanking her for her info, but no thanks. Well you know what - she eventually convinced me to give it a go. And although I eventually failed at it for what I feel are good reasons I do what I can to promote breastfeeding and I am sooooooooooooo glad I listened. (the sad part is I don't think I won the circ. debate with her) but anyway, just keep at it with your sister. She might have an epiphany before he's born like I have heard of others doing.


----------



## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leiahs* 
nd_deadhead, can I copy/paste what you said there into an email to my sister if she persists in this stupidity?

I have to tell you all, I spent most of last night awake and mentally typing hate mail to my sister, and mentally cutting off all family ties, I am so distraught over all of this.

YES!!!!!

But if it works, you have to send me a photo of your nephew when he's born!


----------



## Leiahs (Jul 29, 2005)

She's due in just a couple weeks now, I think.














I wish I could keep that boy inside her forever, or until she decides to change her mind.


----------



## tuansprincess (Oct 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leiahs* 
Ooh, Tuanprincess, you posted the same time as I did. But you remind me -

Isn't there an article out there somewhere about how boys generally don't know the status of their fathers, or some sort of research about how they are emotionally (non)affected by the difference in status? Man, this is really vague, isn't it? I feel like I've just read it within the last couple weeks, though.

Hmm - I don't think I have seen one like that. I will keep looking though. If you or someone else finds it I would love the link.


----------



## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

I don't really have alot of suggestions but you aren't alone. We just went through this with SIL who's baby is 2 weeks old. I haven't asked yet whether they decided to do it, but I cringe thinking about her poor baby. She's young too, same sort of situation.


----------



## NaomiMcC (Mar 22, 2007)

Okay...I know I'm goiing to get totally flamed for this but...here it goes. You told her your opinion. You gave her the facts but in the end it's still HER decision. How would you feel if you wanted a homebirth for example and she constantly nagged you about your decision? About the risks? About the dangers etc etc. Wouldn't it grate on your nerves? You've given her the info. She has chosen to ignore it. While it may be an issue near and dear to you, you've done what you can do. Leave it be. And to cut your sister out of your life because of this seems quite extreme. I would rethink it.


----------



## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NaomiMcC* 
Okay...I know I'm goiing to get totally flamed for this but...here it goes. You told her your opinion. You gave her the facts but in the end it's still HER decision. How would you feel if you wanted a homebirth for example and she constantly nagged you about your decision? About the risks? About the dangers etc etc. Wouldn't it grate on your nerves? You've given her the info. She has chosen to ignore it. While it may be an issue near and dear to you, you've done what you can do. Leave it be. And to cut your sister out of your life because of this seems quite extreme. I would rethink it.

Your analogy fails. Circumcision is a pointless, risky, cosmetic surgery performed on an unconsenting child which leaves them scarred for life. THIS should grate on peoples' nerves, and grate harder than the messenger of the news.

Moms have changed their minds seconds before their son is cut.

Don't listen to people telling you that it is too late, OP. Keep trying and don't feel ashamed. This is an innocent child with no voice. I applaud you for being a voice for him.


----------



## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

This isn't just a parenting choice or a birth choice. This woman _is having a piece of her son's penis cut off_. This is a crime against his body, his being.


----------



## bdavis337 (Jan 7, 2005)

I agree, get her to watch a video. I was totally convinced you guys were all wacko until I watched a very graphic circ video. Even without sound on my computer I was nearly sick from it, and it worked on me better than anything else I'd read, heard or talked about from any angle.


----------



## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Also- have you thought about the Penn and Teller episode? There is some swearing and "man humor" (as my DH says) but it has changed a lot of minds.


----------



## Tinker (Mar 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bdavis337* 
I agree, get her to watch a video. I was totally convinced you guys were all wacko until I watched a very graphic circ video. Even without sound on my computer I was nearly sick from it, and it worked on me better than anything else I'd read, heard or talked about from any angle.

That's exactly how I felt. When I first came to MDC and was poking around I saw the CAC. I thought what in the world could be wrong with circumcision? Lucky me I checked it out. And the first thread that day was the circ video. After that I knew what was wrong with circumcision.


----------



## Leiahs (Jul 29, 2005)

I don't agree that it's anything like advocating for a natural birth. Honestly, I don't care even a fraction as much how she chooses to have a birth, what she decides about vaccines or when to introduce popsicles (I'm guessing by 2 months, if how she treated DD around me is any indication), and how she decides to parent - Circumcision is THE issue that gets me fired up. I agree with carriebft - this is something I consider a crime against their son's basic rights of humanity. The fact that is legal still is what makes a problem. It *is* her choice, as much as I hate it and say over and over that it *shouldn't* be.

I won't say it's too late until after her son is born or she stops talking to me, whichever comes first. Otherwise I'll never forgive myself for not trying harder. She has no excuse to claim ignorance as long as I'm around, and if she chooses circ after everything I've shared with her, his blood is on her hands that much more.

I don't guilt my other sisters nearly as much, because I didn't discover intactivism until after they were already parents - and I know very much from parents on this forum, and my own mindset before researching, that ignorance is bliss. I won't let her claim that... she has every opportunity to make a stand, to see truth and sense laid out plainly before her.


----------



## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Leiahs, I just read your last post and it makes me want to go out there tomorrow wearing my inactivism shirt and pin and change some minds. It takes a lot of courage to keep trying, especially when they are family and so connected to you. Let us know if you can think of any other sources that might help.

Quote:

Isn't there an article out there somewhere about how boys generally don't know the status of their fathers, or some sort of research about how they are emotionally (non)affected by the difference in status? Man, this is really vague, isn't it? I feel like I've just read it within the last couple weeks, though.
you may try sharing our story with her. My husband's back is covered in mongolian birth marks (dark blue- they look like bruises). My son sees his back all the time (much more than his penis!). Should I make sure my son has some blue marks on his back so that they look alike? I mean, it might cause him mental problems, right?







Maybe pointing out this horrible logic will help her see the light.

Also, I love this article:

http://www.infocirc.org/MensHlth.htm

very informative and the pictures stick in your mind.


----------



## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

I'm betting that her DH doesn't know if his dad is circed or not and his dad likely doesn't know his grandfather's status either. Seriously, guys don't care about this at all unless it has to do with circing their sons. GRRRR. I mean, my DH didn't even know if his FOUR brothers were circed (2 older and 2 younger) and they lived in a tiny farmhouse with only 1 bedroom for the kids and one bathroom. Oh ya, and he doesn't know his dad's status either.


----------



## Tinker (Mar 1, 2007)

I don't get the whole "I want the boys penis to look like mine" argument. What is it with guys and their penis's anyway? (No offense to any guys here) I haven't got a clue what my mother's vagina looks likePuke ) and I don't give a hoot if mine resembles it anyway. Do men really care if their penis looks like their fathers'?







:


----------



## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

Quote:

You gave her the facts but in the end it's still HER decision.
Did you maybe make a wrong turn? Over here we don't believe that cosmetic surgery on someone else's genitals is mommy's decision. Mommy shouldn't be concerned with how pretty baby's penis is in her eyes.


----------



## mamasophy (Mar 15, 2007)

I think "it's still her decision" refers more to the fact that legally that is the case and we can't take responsibility for others' behavior. No matter how we feel, no matter how wrong it is, it still is a "decision" (though I don't believe it should be) that they get to make, not us. At some point we have to separate ourselves or go crazy, even though we are so invested in the outcome that it hurts! That separation point is the tough part, because we all know that the circ decision can be reversed up to the last second! My own brother will allow his twins to be circ'd (if they're boys -they don't know) and he is against circ! But he wants to keep peace with his wife. I literally have done all I can think of, but he has shut down completely, won't read anything or respond, won't discuss it (just says "it doesn't matter" in his case). So I'm stepping back from communication for now and hoping they have girls! I will not cut him off, but he knows that I have lost a lot of respect for him and that I think that this decision just points out even bigger problems in their relationship. He's now avoiding me, even though he agrees with me about circ. So I am in a similar boat as the OP, so to speak, and really don't know what to do but protect myself at this point (and there's no way I can speak to the mom about this)!


----------



## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NaomiMcC* 
Okay...I know I'm goiing to get totally flamed for this but...here it goes. You told her your opinion. You gave her the facts but in the end it's still HER decision. How would you feel if you wanted a homebirth for example and she constantly nagged you about your decision? About the risks? About the dangers etc etc. Wouldn't it grate on your nerves? You've given her the info. She has chosen to ignore it. While it may be an issue near and dear to you, you've done what you can do. Leave it be. And to cut your sister out of your life because of this seems quite extreme. I would rethink it.

Hey - you knew we weren't going to agree with you! But I'd like to answer your question honestly...

I did have 2 homebirths. And I did have a couple of friends try to gently talk me out of it - too 'risky', etc.

And you know what? It didn't bother me. Why? Because I was the one who had done the research and they hadn't at all. I knew that homebirth, in a low risk pregnancy (I sail through pregnancies and had already had two very quick, normal hospital births), was just as safe, if not safer, than a hospital birth.

The facts were on my side with my decision to have a homebirth, and I knew those facts and could share them with my friends. So they backed off, because they didn't have any answers to the information/studies I shared with them.

This is the exact opposite of what happens when someone tries to share circ info with parents who want to circ. Inevitably, the circing parents have given NO (or very little) thought to their decision to circ. It's a gut reaction, based on the fact that Daddy is circed (and doesn't want to think there is anything wrong with his penis) and the fact that 'everyone else' is doing it (and they don't want to be different from all their friends).

It can be hard to break through an ingrained mindset - and American culture sees circ as 'normal'. It can take a lot of pressure/information/talking to get through to some people. And the facts are clear that circumcision is painful, damaging and completely unnecessary cosmetic surgery on an unconsenting infant. Those facts need to be shared...if I was a parent planning to circ in ignorance, I would hope that people would continue to share the truth about circ with me.


----------



## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

We (collective/general) need to be more vocal and never let it drop because cutting on baby's genitals is not okay and it needs to end. It should have never become just another parental choice. It's absurd that anyone has the right to cut off parts of a baby's genitalia.

I would not stop trying to inform your sister and I really hope she starts listening. You are doing the right thing!


----------



## Leiahs (Jul 29, 2005)

I replied to her email with some questions more than 24 hours ago. Now, I have no idea how often she checks her email, or whether she even has internet access in her house. A month ago, she and her husband were both unemployed and not sure if they would even make rent. So I'm not sure how often she checks her email (my mom does live just a few blocks away from them...). And if baby is due in just a couple weeks, I'm wondering how long I should give her a chance to reply before I start really getting on her case.

And for the record, I haven't been harassing her at all. When she told me the baby's sex around 20 weeks, I said, "Oh, I'll have to send you a packet on circumcision." <sister laughs in a way that could be taken as nervous/uncomfortable, subject changes.> I finally got around to getting everything together and getting to the shipping office, and I mailed it to her. Several weeks later, I also sent an email with the article of the canadian boy's death. Then she replied with her decision. So, definitely not harassment by any means. Not that I would feel bad about it, if it would save my nephew's foreskin.


----------



## vaughnmama (May 18, 2007)

Don't give up. Only one person tried to talk to me one time about leaving my 2nd baby intact. And I caved to my husband (& the other pro circ voices.) My friend was sweet and didn't want to pressure me...but now I wish she would have tried harder. (Of course it's not her fault!) But I think if she would have bombarded me with the truth and the research, I could have come around in time and had a leg to stand on when discussing it with my DH. My one conversation with my friend came just days before my son's circ appointment. Hopefully you have a lot more time to work on your sis. Let your sister know that you are telling her this because you truly love her. I regret circumcising my boys with every ounce of my being. The guilt and anger and shame I felt after I finally realized what I had done threw me into the worst depression of my life.


----------



## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leiahs* 
I replied to her email with some questions more than 24 hours ago. Now, I have no idea how often she checks her email, or whether she even has internet access in her house. A month ago, she and her husband were both unemployed and not sure if they would even make rent. So I'm not sure how often she checks her email (my mom does live just a few blocks away from them...). And if baby is due in just a couple weeks, I'm wondering how long I should give her a chance to reply before I start really getting on her case.

Give her a ring.

Not neccessarily just about this topic and not neccessarily right now but you can talk about something else and then bring it up. Emails are far too easy simply not to reply to but phone conversations tend to be a little trickier to evade. You mentioned that she sounded nervous when she laughed and if that is the case then you probably stand a chance. Just be gentle and try to stay away from the M word.


----------



## SleeplessMommy (Jul 16, 2005)

Talk to her on the phone. You have nothing to loose. If your sister won't talk to you for a while, its all in a good cause. She will get over it.

One idea would be to try to talk her into *delaying* the procedure until after the baby is two weeks old. (Because an earlier circ may interfere with breast feeding and bonding)

Emphasize the fragility and "preciousness" of the tiny newborn baby. "The first week after the baby is born is a special time for the mother to spend with her baby and be in awe of the perfect baby she has made." (note: this is all about the Mom, not the baby) "After the circ, there is going to be lots of mess with vasaline and oozing. It's going to be hard to take care of for a few days. Don't you want to have your special time with the baby first?" (note: this is still all about the Mom, what is best for her!)

Insist that a parent be present while the procedure is done "to make sure the baby is OK". The presence of a parent makes it more likely that proper anesthesia will be used.

Waiting 2 weeks keeps the circ $$$ out of the hospital's hands. Also, after 2 weeks, the baby can cry much louder and the mother will be much more sensitive to and responsive to the babies cries.

There is a small possibility that either the non-hospital doctor will talk them out of it, or they will change their minds.







:


----------



## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommiska* 
This is the exact opposite of what happens when someone tries to share circ info with parents who want to circ. Inevitably, the circing parents have given NO (or very little) thought to their decision to circ. It's a gut reaction, based on the fact that Daddy is circed (and doesn't want to think there is anything wrong with his penis) and the fact that 'everyone else' is doing it (and they don't want to be different from all their friends).

It can be hard to break through an ingrained mindset - and American culture sees circ as 'normal'. It can take a lot of pressure/information/talking to get through to some people. And the facts are clear that circumcision is painful, damaging and completely unnecessary cosmetic surgery on an unconsenting infant. Those facts need to be shared...if I was a parent planning to circ in ignorance, I would hope that people would continue to share the truth about circ with me.

This is very well said. I want to add something about the "it's their decision thing." While it can be argued that the right to decision does not belong to the parents, I think it's very important when talking to parents about circ to treat them with respect. I understand this is an emotional issue for intactivists. At the same time it's an equally emotional issue for parents. Parents are in charge of the well being of their child. When anyone tries to step in and dictate how the child should or shouldn't be cared for, parents understandably feel defensive and tend to shut down and block out the "know it alls."

So, yes, information should be shared, absolutely. I think it is important to share the information in a respectful way, that honors that the parent's aren't *stupid* for considering circ, it's probably more that they are unfamiliar with what it means to be circ'd vs. intact. I also think that intactivists will succeed more by trying to be persuasive without getting too emotional. If someone presented me with great information, that's great, but the more drama surrounding the attempted persuasion, the more the receiver will want to shut down and block out the message.

So, I'm advocating for being persistent, but calm and nonjudgemental. I get discouraged when I read posts ripping parents who consider or end up circing and calling them stupid and barbaric. I think that attitude unfortunately hurts the progress of convincing parents to choose intact sons.


----------



## NaomiMcC (Mar 22, 2007)

KBecks...this is what I meant. In the end, it's still their decision whether others like it or not. It's fine to give them the information, but if you badger, they'll shut you out and that'll be the end of it. You'll be no further ahead. you gave the info, all you can do is hope they follow it. That's it.

As a sidebar...(and I'm not posting this to be a PITA but...) what about people who circ for religious reasons? How do you get them to 'change their minds?' especially when it could be a large reason as to why their doing it?


----------



## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NaomiMcC* 
KBecks...this is what I meant. In the end, it's still their decision whether others like it or not. It's fine to give them the information, but if you badger, they'll shut you out and that'll be the end of it. You'll be no further ahead. you gave the info, all you can do is hope they follow it. That's it.

As a sidebar...(and I'm not posting this to be a PITA but...) what about people who circ for religious reasons? How do you get them to 'change their minds?' especially when it could be a large reason as to why their doing it?

we aren't allowed to talk about religious circumcision here, but I know that, in the past, when people need info about not circing in certain religions, they just ask for PMs on it. There are a lot of resources out there through various organizations.


----------



## Collinsky (Jul 7, 2004)

My sweet baby brother and SIL got their son circumcised. Everything else they worked so hard on (the birth, breastfeeding, cosleeping, babywearing, etc) and made really thoughtful, careful choices for their little boy. You can't make choices for people. You can only present them with the information you have, and speak about your experiences and ideas... what they do with it is up to them.

It's very sad.


----------



## Mountaingirl3 (May 21, 2005)

I tried my very best, but my dear sister also circ'd. She regrets it.

I'm all for being respectful and not using inflamatory words like barbaric. But, I'm glad that I went beyond just giving her factual information. I let her know how strongly I felt about a newborn baby suffering. Our discussion got so emotional (this was extremely difficult for me because I'm not a confrontational person). I finally cried that "it's his penis, it should be his choice". All this did convince her, but she still bowed to her dh's reasonless desire to circ.

My point is that if I had held back, I would feel so guilty now. She and I both know that I risked our relationship to try to keep her son intact.


----------



## Leiahs (Jul 29, 2005)

Well, Sis replied. I asked her 4 questions, she answered them (and you could hear the foot-dragging tone, even through the email). She read most of what I sent her, including my personal letter, and did not view anything I put on the CD for her. She and her husband both "feel like" its the right thing because it's what they've both always known all their lives (and *ahem* they were both virgins upon marrying), and she claims they feel the exact same way on the topic. They have not talked to a doctor and don't know who would be performing it.

Then after answering my questions, she goes on to ask if the questioning was necessary. Because you know, it seems to her that I'm telling her that she and her husband are in the wrong, even though she's sure I didn't mean it that way. (I didn't say anything, just asked 4 questions.) And could I please back off? She knows I probably mean well, but she's feeling pressured by me, and she doesn't like that because it's her and her husband's decision to make, not mine. And she doesn't mean to be rude.









I sent back a heck of a long email. I was not mean or angry - I simply laid things out clearly for her. I told her outright that it has absolutely nothing to do with her or her husband, it is all about the baby, whose decision it should be, whose future it is, etc. You all know the drill. I reiterated that she needed to watch a video, and _listen_ to it. I linked to the subtitled YouTube video. I asked if she was willing to do that to her son just because it's what she's familiar with.

I again shared my own experience, my wish for my husband to be intact. How her son and her daughter in law might wish things to be different. How she only has to look at it for 5 dang years. I reiterated complications, I shared Calen's story. I shared what was posted here about pain medications and looking for complications if she insists on going through with it. I challenged her to discover functions and purposes of the foreskin, and continue to think about the future of her son and whether her being comfortable is worth any of the risks involved.

I told her it was okay if she never wanted to talk to me again, or if she wanted to be mad, but I could not stand by and say nothing, or "back off" just because she thinks it's not wrong. I just can't let her go into it ignorant. And I told her I was willing to risk our relationship to make sure she knew, that's how much I care. And in no uncertain terms, I made it clear that there is no gray area - infant circumcision _is_ wrong. Girl or boy. It's his penis, her and her husband's preferences should not be engraved on him.

We'll see if she talks to me after this, even without me being mean or hateful at all. And you know, at this point, I don't much care. I know I've said everything I can. If she still goes through with it, I won't really want to talk to her for a long long time anyway. And I won't feel guilty at all about her son. I'll still cry for him, if they do it, but it won't control my life. My hands will be clean and my conscience clear.

Let's hope some good WA state doctors back me up, or that anything I said actually gets through to her. I know I have you all here, but sometimes IRL, I feel like such a lonely voice in this world.


----------



## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

You've tried so hard. Good for you. I hope they listen!

They're in Washington State? Aren't they aware that circed boys are in the distinct minority there now? Maybe the reverse "locker room" argument would work....







:


----------



## Leiahs (Jul 29, 2005)

I did point out the statistics in WA state, Quirky. But apparently that doesn't matter, because they just want to circ because it's what _they_ want. No other frickin' reason. Grrr.


----------



## guestmama9908 (Jan 23, 2007)

If she does do it and grows to regret it later she will have no excuse.
She will have to suffer that guilt knowing that she did this unnecessary thing to her son while knowing the consequences.


----------



## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Becky, you have my utmost respect and admiration. You have tried every avenue available to save your nephew. Had you not gone all the way with this, I suspect that you may have wondered what more you should have done. Like you said - your conscience is clear. Good for you !!!


----------



## titania8 (Feb 15, 2007)

you have done everything you can. i hope that she will watch the video and see what she "wants". fingers crossed for your nephew.


----------



## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

You have clearly tried very hard and it would seem that you have tried very calm. I hope that your efforts will pay off and your endevour will be successful.


----------



## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

s Becky. I would have done the same thing.


----------



## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Becky, you have done great!







I only hope she starts listening.


----------



## Leiahs (Jul 29, 2005)

Good grief, well, my sister is absolutely beyond hopeless.

She says she watched the video and was fine throughout, although she was "skeptical" about some of it, because they didn't show whether or not the baby had anesthesia.

She says if her son wants a tattoo at age 15 or 16, she won't allow it. But, and I quote, "At one week old, I feel I have the capability of making decisions for my son. True it will affect him for the rest of his life, but at the age of 18 or however old he gets and he decides to hate me for something that I chose for him at one week old, that is his decison."

Also claims that her husband has studied shock because he wanted to become an EMT, and "if the baby were to go into shock the baby would die. At one week old my son is not old enough to make his own decisions and *no man in his right mind would make this decison on his own* at the age of 12 or 18 or however old he wants to be to make it." (bold mine)

Obviously I have a good comeback for why no man would make this decision when he were older, anyone have any good links about the fact that babies DO go into shock?

Oh, and apparently I "went too far" by implying (or explicitly saying? I can't remember which) that she would be held accountable by God for doing something like this with no frickin' reason.


----------



## Tinker (Mar 1, 2007)

Try this:
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...ision_quiz.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurogenic_shock


----------



## Leiahs (Jul 29, 2005)

Just sharing my reply, which may have been a little over the top, but it was emotionally honest.

Quote:

>your dh> says, if babies were to go into shock, they would die. I don't personally know the truth of that, but I do know that babies *have* died from circumcision, many many of them, and I do know they experience shock. In fact, in January 2007, a baby died in london after a heart attack which happened just after the circumcision. Coincidence? (see http://www.circumstitions.com/News24.html#died and http://www.cirp.org/library/death/)

Quote:

Van Howe (1996, p. 431) reported that, "Newborn males respond to circumcision with a marked reduction in oxygenation during the procedure, a cortisol surge, decreased wakefulness, increased vagal tone, and less interactions with their environment following the procedure..." Rhinehart (1999) in a report of clinical cases noted that the only response available to the infant is shock, wherein the central nervous system is overwhelmed by pain, followed by numbing, paralysis, and dissociation. Possibly, dissociation of the traumatic experience and emotional pain may be employed by the infant as a psychological defence (Chu & Dill, 1990; Noyes, 1977; Rhinehart, 1999). While some babies have been described as being "quiet" after circumcision, Rhinehart concluded that the observed stillness most likely represents a state of dissociation or shock in response to the overwhelming pain.
In addition to this, there are studies linking circumcision with post-traumatic stress disorder as far as into adulthood, and increased pain responses clearly visible even 6 months after circumcision. What a lovely thing to decide that you are "going to have to go through". What about the baby?!?! He will experience it far far worse than you ever will. He will endure the pain, and the recover, NOT YOU. I am amazed at your lack of compassion for such a new and fragile human being.

Are you even listening to yourself? You said "if he decides at the age of 15 or 16 to go and get a tatoo, that is something permanent, I will NOT let him do that to him. At one week old, I feel I have the capability of making decisions for my son." So you are completely unwilling to allow him to get a tattoo, which is permanent, yes, but at least only marks his skin. But you want to make a permanent change to HIS SEXUALITY before he even has a voice to share his opinion. Do you think, as he sat in heaven waiting to come to earth, that he thought, "Gee, I sure hope my mom and dad decide to chop off that foreskin when I'm born. I sure don't want to have everything Heavenly Father sent me to earth with."

You then went on to say, "no man in his right mind would make this decison on his own at the age of 12 or 18 or however old he wants to be to make it." GEE, I WONDER WHY. ONE - because it is PAINFUL. TWO - because it is what he has known his whole life. THREE - because it has a purpose and they can't imagine being without it. There ARE men who have made the decision when they are older. Some of them are glad for their decision, and many regret it. Many of them note the difference in sensation, like going from color vision to black and white. But at least it was their decision. If you can sit there and say that you're going to do it for him because there's no way on earth he'd ever choose it for himself, you are more callous than I thought. Every human being has a right to their bodily integrity, and it is not right for ANYONE to take that away from him, especially not the two people who are supposed to love him most on this earth.

Just for your curiousity's sake, the video did include anesthesia. It was topical, and not left on nearly long enough. (This was noted on another website's summary of the video.)

This is not my opinion. This is fact. Circumcision harms, every single time. ( http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...rells_2007.pdf )There is documented loss, for every single baby, and multitudes of dangerous risks on top of that. The supposed benefits of circumcision are all easily refuted, with real life studies, and if you have any you are especially leaning on, throw them my way, I will happily shoot them down. No other industrialized country in the world routinely circumcises infant boys for non-religious reasons. And even in America, rates are near 50%, because people are starting to pay attention. It saddens me that you are not.

I crossed no line by stating that you will be held accountable for your decision in this. I know it's true. I don't think you'll be damned, no. But I do know you will be held accountable, and only God knows what measure He will take. You are responsible for this person's well being, and circumcision is harmful and abusive. Yes, abusive. Causing any infant to go through pain, and removing non-diseased, functioning body parts to suit your personal sexual and cosmetic preferences, that is abusive. And I'm sorry for your son. Truly. I'm sorry you feel like I crossed a line, but it's my unfortunate responsibility to make sure you have information. Ignorance is bliss, they say, but with knowledge comes responsibility. Sometimes I wish I never knew this stuff. Especially when I have to watch my own family inflict it on their sons. But I would be held accountable for not sharing, and not trying my best.

I've probably said all I can say to you, your ears seem closed and your mind set, without ever having actually studied anything on the matter. Apparently "opinion" is worth more than cold hard facts, to you. And your own son's preference, which he wouldn't discover till adulthood anyway. And let's not forget how you think you know better than God's own design for boys, so you'll go and modify His perfect creation, despite His admonition that our bodies are our temples, and knowing you wouldn't so much as let your son put a permanent picture on himself. I guess a permanent scar on his previously perfect reproductive organ isn't as bad, huh? At least I know my hands are clean of your son's blood.
And she said she would love me and talk to me no matter what. I wonder if it's true


----------



## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

oh, nice response. well-said. i hope you put a big enough dent in her skull to let some light in.


----------



## tuansprincess (Oct 25, 2005)

Becky,

are you LDS? I'm sorry I haven't taken the time to read the entire thread and you may have already recieved this link. This pamphlet is good for LDS info. Your letter sounds very much like the one I ended up sending my friend after other attempts failed. Good luck. You have done what you can.


----------



## midstreammama (Feb 8, 2005)

Very good reply!


----------



## Tinker (Mar 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 
oh, nice response. well-said. i hope you put a big enough dent in her skull to let some light in.









:


----------



## Leiahs (Jul 29, 2005)

Yes, I am LDS, as is my entire dense-headed family. The pamphlet was one of the original things I sent to my sister, and I keep referring to some of the concepts in it, because they were a major part of what turned on the lightbulb in my own head. I can't believe she's ignoring these concepts in favor of her own stupid, limited opinion.


----------



## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Unrelenting, certainly, but also strong throughout.

I hope that it does the trick and if not I am not sure what will.


----------



## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leiahs* 
Just sharing my reply, which may have been a little over the top, but it was emotionally honest.

And she said she would love me and talk to me no matter what. I wonder if it's true









Don't know if it's been brought up but read Galations 5. The beginning is all about how new believers should turn away from circumcision because it is the old covenant and God no longer requires a blood sacrifice.

I can pm you a write up I did if you want, just PM me and I will respond with it.


----------



## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Ooh, good to see you again Yoshua!


----------



## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

It hurts so much to watch someone you're close to do something stupid, harmful, and irreversible.

Is there anyone else in your family, or a mutual friend, who might be able to talk to her? I know that family dynamics can be very difficult and I think sometimes intactivists have a harder time getting through to their own families than they do to friends or strangers because of sibling dynamics. At heart, so many of us are still 5 and are going to go "I'll do it because I want to and not because you told me to, nyah nyah nyah." Sometimes having an outsider talk about it will help snap them out of that irrational sibling mode and into a more rational adult mode. Just a thought....


----------



## myfairbabies (Jun 4, 2006)

Great reply! Do you mind if I, uh, borrow it if I ever find the need? (Like with dh's sister!)


----------



## jennkraig (Apr 20, 2006)

Your reply brought tears to my eyes. I hope your sister reads it with an open heart, because if she does there is no way she can deny the truth of what you said. How can an LDS person not respond positively to the argument that Heavenly Father made us perfect?


----------



## InfoisPower (Nov 21, 2001)

You've done all you can. I don't envy your position but I'd have done the same standing in your shoes. Fortunately for me, all I was asked as I held my newborn nephew in my arms was, " Should we circumcise him?" from his father and all I had to say was " Look at him, he's perfect. No need to mess with perfection."


----------



## Leiahs (Jul 29, 2005)

Yoshua, actually I sent her an article from the official LDS magazine that focused on the scripture from Galatians you're referring to. It's quite a thorough article, and concludes with a statement included in the "Circumcision and Mormonism" pamphlet, which I find quite powerful:

Quote:

if the basic revealed principles are known, the Holy Ghost will eventually lead the adherents to forsake their tradition, or academic popularity, or peer pressure in favor of the word of God.
(Entire article found here.)

So if she read what I gave her, as she claimed, then she should be familiar with it.

Quirky, there are no family members that I am aware of who feel like I do on this issue. I may contact my aunt, who I am not close to, but she lives locally and is an IBCLC and seems a little bit "cruncy", and ask her if she is anti-circ or at least familiar with the impact of circ on bf'ing, and ask her to send info to my sis if she is. That's the best shot I can think of, but I'm not sure if it would be worth it. You may be right about the sibling dynamics. And I'm definitely the odd ball in my family, always have been. Unfortunately I'm also not extremely close to my sister - she was a preteen when I moved out and I've only seen her every couple of years since then. Most of my memories of her involve playing imaginary games like pretending to be dogs...definitely not the mature/grown up type of relationship.

Notyetamommy, feel free to use my response to your liking, although I don't find myself nearly the eloquent person I wish I were. I think I thought of about 50 ways to reword it more clearly/strongly/eloquently today as I thought about it, lol.

You know what's awful, I almost feel like at this point, the boy would be better off circ'd than to grow up intact with these kinds of parents hating his anatomy so much. With this sort of attitude, I also imagine them ignoring advice to leave it alone, and then he'd end up with a bunch of psychological issues and probably physical issues, and getting roped into a circ in toddlerhood, you know?

I keep waiting for an email from another sister or my mom, chastising me for being hard on my sister. I've never been so outspoken like this, I'm not sure what to expect from my family!


----------



## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:

You know what's awful, I almost feel like at this point, the boy would be better off circ'd than to grow up intact with these kinds of parents hating his anatomy so much. With this sort of attitude, I also imagine them ignoring advice to leave it alone, and then he'd end up with a bunch of psychological issues and probably physical issues, and getting roped into a circ in toddlerhood, you know?
YOud be really surprised how people's attitudes change about foreskins when they leave their sons intact. Ive known people who went into grudgingly and came out feeling that "seeing the head of the penis on a little boy is the gross thing, not a foreskin."

I almost think about it like poop







. Sometimes people have a baby and, before the baby comes, they are squeemish about poop, but after, they make baby talk about poop sometimes even lovingly


----------

