# What do you stock as emergency food in case of disaster etc?



## Artmama (Apr 30, 2004)

I am finally getting serious about the emergency food and water thing, and really want any input. If you do stock it, how much? What food do you stock(please keep in mind I have no deep freeze, and I want things that do NOT need cooking, as I am trying to be ready for no electricity etc) I want to try to stock at least a month's worth of food. We are vegetarians.
What keeps forever? How do you go about this? I have so far bought some cans of beans, but I am noticing that it all has an expiration date. So at some point am I going to need to do this all again? This is going to cost a ton, I want it to be stuff that won't go bad if possible!


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

This is kind of a hobby of mine. Before I can make some helpful suggestions, it would be good to know more of what you have in mind, for example:

1. Are you in a hurricane prone area and looking to help have rations on hand to get past the 'post storm' supply and fuel shortages (including cooking / heating foods and sterilizing water).

2. Are you in a remote area that you are worried that you might want a 1-3 month supply of stored goods incase of bad weather (snow storms or other type weather that might make driving impossible on washed out roads)?

3. Are you just trying to have an emergency pantry for any type of situation that might arrise: bad weather, mother nature events (earthquakes, etc), and potential civil disturbances or financial 'crashes'....and if so, are you looking for short term or long term?

4. Are you secretly a 'survivalist' that is worried that something big is on the horizon, and want to be prepared to live in a possible TEOCAWKI situation....if you are a survivalist, you will know what that means.....







hehe..the fact I typed it...erm...just means that I like to be prepared for anything...and well...enough said...

I'm out of town and typing on my laptop, so I am not going to go into detail here. I hate typing on laptops, but I'll be back June 5th. I would be happy to give you some fairly detailed info. This is an 'area' that I will hopefully be addressing in a book for moms looking to do things 'old fashioned style' and in situations where it might be the only choice due to power outages or such...

One quick suggestion, if you are buying canned goods, and yes, they usually have about a 1-2 year exp date, then buy ONLY canned goods you already eat, and put the new cans in the back of your storage area, and use the older ones first.

Just buy 1-2 extra cans of whatever you are already using and always keep buying on your normal grocery shopping cycle. The extra canned goods will not only slowly build up, but you will automatically rotate and use up stuff that'll expire and it will not go bad on you.

The same can be said of small bagged beans/legumes. Just add in a few extra and store them in a dry airtight container.

Buy when things are on sale and the extra amounts will not really effect your budget too much, and will add to your supply. Obviously this will help 'store up' your short term emergency pantry. There are other things I would suggest in detail, if you are going for the long term pantry (6 months to a year or more).

The only other issues will be fresh foods (cheap, fast growing vegetable matter for much needed vitamins/minerals) during this time and a way to heat/cook it, if power is out. I do have suggestions, but will wait until I get home to type it up nice and readable....

I have done a fairly long post on how to handle water issues, that was done about a year ago. If I can find it, I"ll bump or repost it. I have most of this stuff on my home computer in a 'erm'....survival/emergency database....

Hope this is kinda of what you are looking for. I don't like 'scaring' folks until I know more of what you are looking for. I once went into long term emergency food storage and supple issue details with a mom friend of mine that was more interested in hearing that she should have extra ramen and mac and cheese and juice boxes on hand if the power was out for a few hours/day or two.... know what I mean?

As far as buying stuff that will keep, but that you don't eat now...don't do it. They did studies on people that were put into a situation where they could only eat 'stored survival type' goods. They got fairly sick, as their digestive systems were not used to the foods and had to be taken off the 'experimental' diet. If you just buy extra stuff that will keep for the 'month' you are looking into, you should be really easily be able to do that and not blow the family budget and will NOT have to replace it all, if you are using the 'rotate' system and using up stuff that will eventually expire during normal meals.

I would NOT suggest long term storage of water in plastic 'milk jug' type containers. They WILL eventually leak and oh what a mess (yes, let's just say I found out the hard way). Water storage (long term) is usually the bigger issue, over food. But water 'treatment' on the spot does help and there are containers designed to store larger amounts of water for the time frame you are looking at.

By the way, I would never consider refrigerated or frozen foods to be good storage foods, as power is too fickle, even if you have your own generator system, so that's easy. As far as saying 'no cooking'. I think you will get tired of eating canned, cold beans, soups and such after a month if you really had to eat it for that long. At least there is some water in it and that's a good thing. Dehydration is a big issue during times of stress.

But here I am still typing and I said I would keep it short until I was home..haha...


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Hey, never heard back from you and I really didn't want to type up a long post if you got the info you needed from the above reply. If you are still interested, let me know. I am back from my trip, rested and ready to work up a list of things I would consider important.









Heather


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## bluets (Mar 15, 2005)

i'd be interested in more details - even if it just a collection of links to past threads.


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## bigknitwit (Sep 2, 2004)

I'm not Artmama but I definitely consider this important, and so if you're willing to type, I'd definitely be willing to start implementing some of your suggestions. I don't live in a hurricane-prone area (I'm in NH) but would like to make up some kind of system that would carry us through for at least a month to start. My pantry is always terribly disorganized as a lot of stuff in my house right now LOL but maybe I should start to organize it a bit more to start doing the canned food rotation idea you mentioned.


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## saratc (May 13, 2006)

Yes, I'm definitely interested in any ideas you may have to share regarding stocking up for emergency situations. While I am interested in stocking up for natural disasters up to a month and such, I am also interested in what you may suggest for something that may be bigger and longer that may span even a year or longer. Doesn't have to be a guarantee that we will last for years, but basically things we can do and stock to make it through a VERY long stretch if needed.

I'm especially interested in the following:
- What to do in terms of water if the municipal water was not drinkable assuming there was some sort of water source nearby. How to store water in case there is no water source nearby?
- What types of food to stock that may last not just months but perhaps a year? I'm interested in more than canned food such as grains that will keep, beans, seeds for growing, etc
- What tools to have on hand, such as things to sterilize water, gardening, sprouting, and other tools.
- What to stock for potential substitute for power source?


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Cool!








I'll work up a few things on my word processor and post them then. I know I've got 'bits and pieces' of info here and there. I will also confirm any old links to sites that sell things that I consider a 'MUST' to have on hand for such situations....

Heather


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## mamajessica (Sep 15, 2004)

I am also interested in the best areas to store things. I always worry that my kitchen or garage aren't the best area for natural disaster issues.


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## 7kiddosmom (Feb 18, 2005)

I am very interested as we DO live in a hurricane prone area and are long over due for one.


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## msjd123 (Jun 11, 2005)

:


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

We have about a dozen five gallon buckets of grains and legumes nitrogen-sealed to last decades. And that's all well and good except that I no longer eat grains and legumes to speak of. My husband wanted to store more -- something like 50 buckets. Yes, he's a bit of a nut but he's a provider and wants to make sure we all have something to eat in the event of _anything_. I told him that we would hunt and trap like the natives used to. We need some basic skills and supplies, not 50 buckets of food that doesn't agree with us.

We're in the woods, we have a water source, and we are well-practiced in going without power.


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## mamajessica (Sep 15, 2004)

I so badly want to move to Nature. I think we are f-ed for so many situations in the city. At least my neighbor has a full shelter full of food in her basement (she is Mormon and is an icon of preparedness







 )and it willing to share for a week or so.


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## wheezie (Sep 18, 2004)

I'm watching this thread w/ interest!







My mom is such a survivalist, and she's rubbed off on me over the years. (You should have seen us during the whole Y2K thing!







:







:







)


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wheezie*
I'm watching this thread w/ interest!







My mom is such a survivalist, and she's rubbed off on me over the years. (You should have seen us during the whole Y2K thing!







:







:







)

You should not







: You can not imagine the number of people that were prepared, and while Y2K didn't turn out horrible like some predicted, alot of folks that would not have been prepared otherwise, then made it through easier for the increased numbers of really bad hurricanes, storms, flooding and earthquakes we've had. Not to mention the horrible 'twin towers' event.

It's always good to be prepared, as long as you can still 'live your life' and just have the stuff at the ready... Dwelling on it too much might not be the best thing psycologically, but then again, what woman or husband wouldn't sleep a little better knowing they have some basic stuff to 'get by' in case of an emergency to help their family and possibly close friends/neighbors.








I'm still using up grains from bucket we bought in 1999...







So I can appreciate what you must have gone through as well.







But I will say, NOTHING has gone to waste. It was all vacuum packed or nitrogen sealed, and it will still 'sprout', when I pop open a bucket. So again, no waste and I still have enough for a good long term emergency...


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Ok, Here are some of links to items some of you may never have heard of, knew existed, or have seen at a friends and wanted your own. All links have been checked this morning and are working as far as I know.

I try to not recommend certain brands, but some of the items I've got myself, used and would say is good for the $$, and others I've used or tested at conventions or other places and see what a neat item it would be. Some of the things (like the can good dispensing system) is still on my 'want list'.

You will see me refering to some of these things in the 'preparedness' list, so now you can start browsing and know what I'm talking about!

*Preparedness Links*

*Gamma lids and misc products*
http://www.baproducts.com/pails.htm
http://www.breadbeckers.com/gammalids.htm
http://www.emergencyresources.com/er_p19.html

*Canned Goods Storage Rack self rotating system for product freshness!!! I'm buying this, rather than try to build it.*
http://www.fifostorage.com/index.shtml

*Water Barrels and Emergency Treatment / Storage*
http://www.emergencyresources.com/er_p13.html
http://theepicenter.com/water_drums_...ontainers.html

*72 hour, short term emergency 'kits' Buy one (even cheap one and add to it or just look to get ideas for making up your own 'go bag' for keeping in car or in closet near door to garage*http://www.geoduck.com/epicenter/ord....html&cart_id=

*Solar cooking*
Sun oven http://www.sunoven.com/

*Solar cooking and home made ovens*
http://www.solarcooking.org/
_Look under plans, box cookers for best bets to make
Water pasteurization area is good
Recipes section under resources_

*Supplies for solar cooking*
http://gallery.bcentral.com/GID51481...-Supplies.aspx

*Solar 'hot plate' cooker with collection panel, COOL!*http://www.butlersunsolutions.com/ht...ooker-big.html

*I REALLY want to build this for my south facing kitchen&#8230;.*http://solarcooking.org/walloven.htm
*Sustainable living, cooker plans, earth ovens, etc (books/DVDs to buy)*http://www.northcoast.com/~tms/kitchen.html

*Eterna battery and hand crank radio/flashlights. High end*
http://www.flashlightsunlimited.com/nightstarii.htm
http://www.geoduck.com/epicenter/ord....html&cart_id=

*Best (IMO) hand crank grain mill, for long term or daily use*
http://www.webcom.com/infinet/grinder.html
_I got to sample the 'turning' on this mill and it rocks._

*One of the Best Electric Flour mills*http://www.everythingkitchens.com/wo...rain-mill.html
_Note, it's called the 'Wonder Mill' now, same as the 'Whisper Mill'. Company sold and new owners changed it's name._

*Bulk Montana Wheat grain in pails (love all their products)*http://www.webcom.com/infinet/wheat.html

*Gravity water filter*
http://www.everythingkitchens.com/aquarain.html

*One of the best electric, automatic sprouters*
http://www.everythingkitchens.com/ea...nsprouter.html
_Just use mason jars for small amounts and it's cheap!_

*Canning supplies, storage 'mason' jars (glass)*
http://www.unclejoes.com/Canning%20J...For%20Less.htm

*Pickling (fermented veggie) crocks*
http://www.wisementrading.com/foodpr...sch_crocks.htm
_Best prices I've found for the Harsh brand&#8230;great brand_

*Good misc stuff and camping gear (emergency traveling)*
http://www.geoduck.com/epicenter/ord....html&cart_id=

That should get you started. If you 'surf' some of the additional sites linked to or the other pages on these sites..you will be quite busy. There will probably be things you want I didn't think to recommend too!

Heather


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## TopazBlueMama (Nov 23, 2002)

Great job, Heather! That's awesome.

imo, the best things to store and stock up in the long run is an assortment of grains and legumes. These last years and years, and if you learn how to use them, not just in flour form-even growing wheatgrass and sprouts, you could practically live off of this in an extreme time of need. Right now I've got some buckets full of the ones I use regularly, but I'm slowly trying to build up.
Last month we got all of our basic 72 hour kits put together. We just went to Good will and picked up extra rolling suitcases and backpacks, and went around buying the things we needed to put in it. A change of clothing for each person, food, supplies, water, fuel, flashlights, first-aid kit. That sort of stuff.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Ok, sorry it's so long, but figure one big post easier to print....

*Preparedness List*

*Short Term (One to Three days)*
*On the Go:*
Several hours up to several days (usually called a 72 hour 'ready' or 'go' bag for emergency evacuations from storms or such.)

I gave a link in the above post with a site the sells '72 hour' bags if you want to see what sort of things should be included in your bag.
If trying to reproduce one, just get a good sturdy, nylon duffle bag and fill with your favorite nutrition bars, a first aid kit, emergency blankets (the thin silver, heat reflecting ones are good and light), a strong flashlight/radio and at least two changes of batteries.
I would include your favorite feminine hygiene supplies and waterless sanitary hand solution, some garbage baggies, pop up type wipes and emergency formula for baby (if you use it) and water for all. The pre-sealed packets of water would be light weight and handy in this case, especially if you are having to carry the bag. I would also keep on the top of the bag a 'to grab' list of personal medicines you might need and that the first aid kit doesn't have.

*For house hold:*
Slowly stock up on extra canned and dry goods. The automatic rotating can goods system I gave a link too is GREAT for long term use as well. It will help prevent stuff getting 'lost' in the back of your pantry and is easier than trying to build something like it out of wood (which I was actually considering doing!)

Easy, quick heating foods are good (soup, canned fish, beans, chili and such). Try to only buy brands and types you already at least occasionally use. Changing your diet too much isn't going to hurt you in the short term, but over time, it will affect you digestively. Crackers and dry goods that can be eaten out of hand (dehydrated fruits, granola and such) are good too.

Power is first to go, but you usually have water and gas services for quite some time, unless it's pretty severe (like major flooding). Therefore, you can still make tea and such and maybe cook/heat foods on a bar'b'q grill or a 'sterno' heat stove (one of the links has these). Drink mixes are good, for adding to your water (ie, Tang), if you are using stored water and it tastes a bit off (flat from storage, as the oxygen levels are usually low. You can also shake it up, to re-oxygenate it and improve the flavor a bit.

_For short term water outages_, I like to put water in quart mason jars, seal and 'pressure steam' to seal like I'm making jelly. Then you have pre-sealed, sterile water for emergency use. I also save my glass gallon apple juice jugs and fill those.
For short term, knowing something is coming (bad storm and such), I fill them up and don't bother to add treatments. If you wish to store it, you will need to add chlorine bleach or one of the many 'drop' treatments you can buy.
Fill up your bath tub if you know a big storm is coming and remember, you can drain your hot water heater if needed and the back part of your commode (storage tank) is still good, unless you use those blue chemical type inserts. Either way, if I was down to using the water out of the backs of my commodes, I'd filter, sterilize and treat it&#8230;

Buy batteries of all sorts and store them in your freezer in a sealed container. They will keep super long, until you need them and be 'fresh'. Do let them come close enough to room temp before using, to prevent condensation on the sides!
Buy candles in bulk (even the cheapie ones) and have them in every room, and enough matches to last a long time.
Keep a flashlight beside your bed, in the bathroom, and in the kitchen so you know where to go if it's dark and the power is out. Then light candles to preserve your batteries.

*Longer Term (one week to a few months):*
All the above, plus you will need to worry about water most definitely, longer term sanitation and sanitary supplies. Then there is food and heating/cooking issues and most likely if during winter months in a cold area, you will need to have a heat source to keep warm (a wood burning stove or fireplace or a pellet stove is great, otherwise you will have to bundle up and keep warm when heating your foods, esp if you live in an apartment!

*Sanitation:* Well, if the water is out, you can not flush! You can waste valuable water filling the reserve tank, and then flushing, but I have a better, and cheaper solution. Other than digging a hole out back and squatting&#8230;

Buy Cat litter or sand in a bulk container. Get plastic garbage baggies that will fit into the stool section (empty of water now, of course) and line it, letting the extra drape over the sides to ensure it doesn't fall in.
Put the lid down to help hold it in place. Leave a big bucket of cat litter/sand in the bathroom. Use a plastic cup to scoop a thin layer over the bottom of the baggie. Use the toilet as normal, then sprinkle a layer of litter/sand over this. You can use the commode many times and the odor will not be too much to handle, if it gets odorous&#8230;also leave a jumbo sized box of baking soda in bathroom and sprinkle on a layer of this too.
When full, you can take the bag out back and have a hole dug and dump contents into hole, or if you don't care about the plastic bag in the ground thing, tie up bag and dispose of it all. Keep filling the hole until full, cover and dig new hole. There are 'biodegradable' plastic bags that you could buy&#8230;costs a bit more, but if you are worried&#8230;

*Personal Sanitary Stuff:* If you haven't checked out cloth menstrual pads and or a 'Diva' or 'Keeper' cup, this should be something you definitely do. You can rinse out cloth and let it air dry and the Diva/Keeper cups are easy to 'dump', rinse off, and use again. Nuff said.
Cloth diapers for baby would be a good back up if you are not using them. Get quick drying covers and flat fold diapers. Water will be at a premium (unless you have a lake/river nearby). You can wash, and drip dry. If you are worried about really long term or the potential of having babies during this time, you will want to make a delivery 'emergency bag' and have other baby supplies on hand too. A good reference book on emergency delivery is great and helps build confidence.

There are solar heated hanging water bags you can buy to take 'warm' showers and if you like, buy a pressure pumped spray canister (the kind they usually put tree pesticide treatments in&#8230;buy a new one, of course, just for this use) and fill with warmed water and pump&#8230;and you have higher pressure 'rinse off' capabilities.

You should have a large jug of 'castile' type soap, for multi purpose usage (personal, laundry and even dishes) or stock up on bars when they go on sale. Don't forget back up supplies of toothpaste (baking soda works in a pinch and storing really large boxes of it is cheap). Hydrogen peroxide is another item I'd store in bulk, it's great for MANY uses.

_*Medical Supplies:*_ You will want more than just a 'quickie' first aid kit. I'd stock up on band aids, bandages and anti-biotic ointment (Neosporin, etc). Aspirin and any other NSAIDS you use. I would prefer to have tinctures of willow bark and echinachea and vitamin C powder or tablets on hand.
_If you can get a medicinal herb book with how to make tinctures, poultices, syrups and such from locally growing stuff, that'd be great and will serve you better for really long term emergencies._
I even bought a surgical kit that had sutures, hoping to never use it, but if we had an emergency and someone DID know how to use them, I'd have them on hand. There is a 'field surgery' kit out now that would be good to have if you know or live near a doctor, or think you might be desperate enough to follow an emergency manual and use it.
_If you are on prescription medicine, you might want to look into the herbal (hopefully growing in your area) remedies you might need to turn to in case of dire emergency and you are out of your medicine._

*Water:*
This is where I have a few of the giant blue water 'tanks' (see links) in my basement. They not only act as a thermal mass (preventing excessive temperature variations, but are a good back up supply. I simply treat with chlorine, and then plan to filter it when needed for drinking. I would have a variety of sources: Some stored in quick use packaging, a 'dispenser crock' and a few larger (5 gallon) jugs like you can get at a health food store for cooking/drinking usage, and the large blue storage tanks for long term emergencies. After that, I have filters and gravity methods for treating 'harvested' water (rain, river, lake, etc).

_*Pantry items:*_
More dry goods (pastas, crackers, dehydrated fruits, granola and _grains/legumes/seeds and nuts <--IMO, the best bargain and long term item...but need a grinder! or use them to sprout._

Canned goods with water content (Ie, heat and serve or eat cold if necessary) Try to have at least TWO manual can openers on hand (someone I know had only an electric and was pretty pissed they couldn't open their stuff when the power went out!) This gets cumbersome, so not a good REALLY long term option, if limited on space.

Things that don't require refrigeration, like mustard, ketchup or individual packets of mayo and such, are nice to have if you use them. Check out a Costco or Sam's club for these items, as they sell 'packets' in a large box. I also like soy sauce for marinating and flavoring.

Be wary of super sized canned goods. If you are a family of 2-3, most of it will be wasted if you don't have refrigeration available after your meal. I DO like the number 10 cans of dehydrated items, that you can leave at room temp, reseal with a plastic lid and use up fairly quickly (ie, dehydrated onions, potatoes, dehydrated beans). MRE's are a decent back up. However, taste a few of them before buying anything in bulk...they are not so hot nutritionally (from a organic, non additive point of view) but will keep you alive...

_You will want to move towards more whole food items, rather than quickie prepared meal foods, for storage and long term usage reasons._ So buy some bulk grain (wheat, spelt, kamut, oats or whatever you might eat). Buy dry beans/legumes and seeds and nuts.
Try to get ones that you can sprout and or grind on the spot.
There fore you will want a really good manual grain grinder (see link) and be familiar with sprouting techniques. This will help provide you with needed vitamins and minerals (the sprouting) that you will be missing once you can not obtain fresh produce from your local store. Obviously, if you have a garden, make sure you stock a few extra packets of seeds of foods you enjoy and have a way to preserve it using low tech (ie, only solar or dehyrdation techniques).

This is also a time to think about having crocks and old fashioned preserving technique supplies on hand, especially if you DO have the blessing of a garden and will need to preserve it other than freezing. A dehydrator is good, especially solar one!

Cooking meals will become more of a chore, as you will need to give it additional preparation time. I would definitely get a solar oven, or build one and test it. They are great for sunny days (regardless of temperature). When it's overcast, make sure you have a back up, such as a propane operated grill or cook top (the tanks are pretty easy to store, and no fumes like from gasoline storage tanks), plus by using solar on good days, you will make it last longer.
Make sure you have fuel for a 'sterno' 'super stove - see links)'
There is a link to making earth ovens that are super efficient in fuel/heat use that could be built in your back yard.
If you have a generator, fuel storage becomes an issue in the long term. I'd rather learn how to build super efficient cooking systems that use items such as charcoal brickettes (you can fill a metal garbage can and have a long term source, as some of the super efficient cookers use very little) or locally harvested wood, if you live in an area where you can get it. I saw a number 10 can that was cut to allow for better air flow, and it used one charcoal brickette in the bottom and it was boiling water! I think it's called a 'hobo stove'. I will try to find that link!

If you are a meat eater&#8230;like Amanda said, learn to hunt, clean and prepare what you catch. Hey, Squab is just fancy restaurant talk for 'pidgeon'&#8230;.so even city dwellers can find something to hunt&#8230;though, IMO, ICK! But if I was starving&#8230;

I think fishing is my first option, then perhaps rabbit or something. I'm not sure I could kill a deer, but if you know a hunter already, maybe you can talk them into doing it, and then offer to dehydrate/prepare the meal. You will need to use old fashioned methods to store it (salting, dehydrating into jerky, etc).

Speaking of, of all the spices to have in your pantry, SALT is a very important one, for many reasons (preserving, fermenting, flavor boosting). Try to get a good quality sea salt, for the extra mineral content. Pepper corns and a manual grinder are a great second option for flavor that is easy to store. Dehydrated garlic and onion, ginger and cinnamon, and some extracts are luxuries that will give you good flavor boosts when you are really bored.

Try to build up a stock of canning jars and lids. You may find you need them down the road and they serve many purposes; preserving, sprouting, canning, water storage, general storage of dehydrated foods, etc.

*Sanitation:*
All the above suggested, but once the cat litter runs out..and if you can't find sand or even dirt to use, then it's time to learn how to dig a 'latreen'. You could take the seat off a kitchen chair, and fit it with a toilet lid to make it 'appropriate' for the intended use. Then dig a hole (a post hole digger is suggested, as you want a deep, but slim hole. You could put a tent over the hole, cut a hole in the bottom of the tent and then stragetically place your chair&#8230;.You can use the dirt from digging the hole to 'toss in' to help with odor, but since you are not outdoors, it's not so bad. A tent with vent flaps is good&#8230;
It's a 'quickie' out house, that will give you some privacy and protection from the weather. Also, since you are probably running low or are out of toilet paper&#8230;.you might want to have some soft cloth diaper wipes and a squirt bottle of water available&#8230;I'd rather deal with washing and cleaning the clothes rather than grabbing a leaf that might give me a rash&#8230;Just keep a sealed bucket handy to put the clothes in until you have a chance to wash them (hope you have enough harvest water to do this, rain, river, stream, etc.) Water storage is a big issue for long term!
If you or the dh is handy, and have some wood and building tools, build a little old fashioned outhouse...especially for a more 'permanent' solution.

*Last, but not least, for a REALLY Long Term 'TEOCAWKI' situations (Total end of civilization as we know it) it's more a matter of what skills you have, opposed to what you have stored&#8230;.*

Tools, raw skills, and knowledge will be the true mark of a prepared person. Read as much as you can on how to do things the REALLY old fashioned way, try to develop needed skills that you could use to either make things to barter or have a skill to barter to get food/water from others.
Learn to harvest or wild craft herbs and 'nutritional weeds', sew, campfire cook, etc.

The ideal setting in a situation like that would be to have a remote cabin or underground (partial or fully for energy conservation and no heating issues) home with self sustained energy (solar or wind mill), a garden plot or green house, and a few low maintenance animals (chickens for eggs, goats for milk, etc). A water source and appropriate filters and solar pasteurization techniques and/or a manual crank 'option' well would be a total benefit.
Living in a self sustaining community would actually be even better, as you would have others to help and other skill sets to fall back on. There is a reason for 'village' development and mindset!
If you eat meat/fish/poultry, then learning to hunt, clean and prepare the animals is a must&#8230;.otherwise, trying to growing enough grain to harvest for your entire family to hold you over until the next growing season could be really difficult, especially if you don't have animals to help plow the field and workers to help bring in the harvest and then store it to keep out critters that will want to eat it during the winter months&#8230;much less, do you have a field to plant it in!
There is a reason the hunter/gatherers preceded the agricultural based societies&#8230;.it takes a lot of time, work and community effort to produce grains and other grown produce.

There are good books out on how to harvest weeds and other plants that grow really easily (dandylions, nettles, etc) and that have more nutritional value than most produce in the grocery store! Just make sure anything you 'harvest' you are SURE of what you are harvesting.

I buy 'edible' type flower and plant seeds (yes, even dandylions and nettles) and encourage their wild growth in my back yard and just over the fence in the 'open space'. I figure if need be, I can go harvest some nettles and dandylions for extra nutrition when needed. I also feed the birds fresh flax and other seeds, and have wild sunflowers and flax growing just beyond my fence!

_There are many other things I am thinking of, but this is enough for now!_ I'm just typing off the top of my head, and not going into too much detail (Like how to build some of this stuff)&#8230;

I have a small library that I try to read occasionally just to keep 'fresh' on ideas, so that if I really had to do some of this stuff, it wouldn't be such a shock. I also practice old fashioned cooking/preparation methods just to make sure it's 'memorized' and I'm not stressing looking for recipes in a book when the lights are off!

One book suggests having 'power out' days at home, like a fire drill, to see what things you will realize you need or need to do if such a thing happened!

One last bit of advice, do not store this on your computer&#8230;well, don't 'just' store it on your computer. *PRINT it off and keep it in a binder that you know where it is.* No power, no computer&#8230;haha&#8230;I have had to remind myself to print things I've saved!

Hope this helps give you some ideas on where to start!


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Another quick idea...to keep this in line with 'food and nutrition' in times of emergency, how about those that have done so, posting recipes that use 'low tech' or emergency cooking techniques.

I am kinda taking a typing break, but have some solar oven and other techniques (hot water in a thermos, wheat breakfast) that I will post to help with how to use up those 'buckets of wheat' without using alot of energy and if you don't have a good grinder...


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## saratc (May 13, 2006)

Wow, thanks Heather. I've got a lot of reading and work ahead of me now.







Need to remember to get a binder and to my emergency reference...


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## amcal (Jan 13, 2003)

Wow! Thank you so much! I've been stockpiling food and water for a while - my problem is VERY limited space









I can't tell you how much I appreciate the time and effort involved in posting all that. Really, really selfless and so generous. Thank you!


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amcal*
Wow! Thank you so much! I've been stockpiling food and water for a while - my problem is VERY limited space









I can't tell you how much I appreciate the time and effort involved in posting all that. Really, really selfless and so generous. Thank you!

I think a FEMA director was quoted as saying things like, when you go to the store, buy extra can or two of tuna and store it under the bed! Dry milk and such....I don't think I'd buy dry milk, but I might consider buying a box of almond/rice milk and sliding it under the bed...

If you live in small space or apartment, it really is hard. Try to think of any nook and cranny you can use (like under beds, the top shelf of closets go way up and alot of that space is wasted.) I turned my 'coat closet' in our old house into a pantry with some put together shelves and stored alot of my 'bulk goods' in there. You can hide a grain bucket under a little table and put a drape cloth over it.... If you have a small balcony, there are those outdoor rubber maid 'storage trunks' that would hold alot and are lockable...and keep out pests (of many kinds)...

If you have a small patio or yard, there are 'pop up' storage sheds that are like a tent, but you could stack heavy stuff in there (like buckets that are sealed well) and zip closed. It would just look like you have your yard equipment in there then. Here is a link to what I'm talking aobut: http://www.solutions.com/jump.jsp?it...&keyword=80722

I also used to slide boxes of honey and stuff towards the very back of my cabinets, since I never wanted to dig back that far for pots...and it was unused space.

You could get some of those really flat storage bins that are designed to go under a bed (plastic ones, cheap at Walmart/Target) and stock with pasta and or tuna cans (little cans) and or tomato paste cans (the tiny ones) and slide it under a couch or loveseat (test the bin first to make sure it will fit).

Mmm, other than that, you might consider renting a nearby (very nearby) storage building (the smallest one they have) and stocking piling stuff there, and just plan on hitting it if you have to leave town or need to just grab it quick and pile it in the center of your living space once you don't care about it being there...

Just some thoughts. I appreciate and feel for 'small space' and apartment dwellers, it's ROUGH to stock for 'long term', but you can usually do fine for the itermediate needs and then hope to leave and head for the hills, as they say...

Heather


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## Babytime (May 4, 2004)

Wow! Thanks for all the great information in this thread.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Excellent info! Thank you Heather.


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## rn (Jul 27, 2003)

I want to say thanks to Heather also. This really is a great thread.
I think being prepared for "anything" is so important, even more so if you live in a big city.


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## Rebecca (Dec 4, 2002)

Heather, that was awesome! I thought I had this stuff down but you listed things I hadn't even thought of!

I get Countryside Magazine and it has lots of 'old fashioned' advice that's perfect for survivalists. The most recent issue had a wonderfully detailed article about building solar ovens. Lots of small-scale livestock info, canning tips, harvesting ideas, etc. Mother Earth News also has great articles that would be pertinent to one looking to be prepared or even to live more simply.


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## Livi's Mama (Apr 25, 2003)

Thanks, Heather! I have felt the need to start stocking up for quite a while, but felt overwhelmed at the prospect. A few days ago I decided to buy 1 bin and $25 worth of items to store in it each month & keep a detailed list of what I have & where it is. It feels so good to be doing something! DH thinks I'm







& hopefully he's right & this is unnecessary. You've given me some direction as I stock up.

And I second the Countryside mag suggestion. Love it.


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## AdoptChina (Dec 7, 2003)

thanks for all the info....this is something DH and I have talked about but haven't ever done any of it...I think I biggest worry is that I'd have enough since we have so many people here, kwim?


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

I do know what you mean about having lots of people to take care of/feed. I will have 6 living here, and then there are the extended family and friends that would come here if need be, since we're a bit out of the city.....

Then there are neighbors that you would feel for if they were starving and unprepared and you had stuff....

Mainly I think even having a bit of stuff on hand for a few weeks worth of 'get by' would give you a bit more peace of mind...but I do think about long term stuff and what to do...

Lately I've REALLY been getting into how to harvest and utilize 'weeds' such as Dandylion, nettle, plantain, and cat's tails for alternative sources of nutrition and medicinal purposes. It's amazing stuff, and it will be growing and available no matter what. There is a great book called, "From Crabgrass Muffins to Pine Needle Tea - A national wild food field guide" by Linda Runyon that I'd recommend as a good starting place...it's sold at www.healthresearchbooks.com

I love Mother Earth Magazine and will have to check out the Countryside mag!

Well, back to cleaning. I'm steam cleaning the carpets, yea, big fun...

Oh, and here is a link to a 'Hobo Stove' that I mentioned. I couldn't find my original link, but this gives you the idea and building instructions for various types....

http://journeytoforever.org/edu_hobostove.html


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Here is another great 'outdoor cook top' link. I am glad I found this, as I had a printed copy, but couldn't find the right link...but finally found it!

http://www.jrwhipple.com/sr/stove.html

Neat idea, will require having a few things on hand and maybe pre made...but assembled pretty easily if you have the bits around or tools to make stuff....


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## Rainbowbird (Jul 26, 2004)

WOw, thanks, Heather! I have been sorta working on this stuff for awhile. When 911 happened, we were living in our log cabin on 11 acres. I remember thinking, well, at least we have all this land, a woodstove, a running stream behind our house, deer around and plenty of hunters in the neighborhood...it felt good to know we could sustain ourselves if need be. I grew up in the country and knew how to keep chickens, had even helped my dad dress deer. Not that I'd want to do that...

Well, now we are living in a semi-village setting, which is great, as we have close neighbors and more resources nearby. But 1 acre instead of 11. Still have a woodstove, thankfully, though one acre doesn't grow a lot of firewood! So I have been thinking more and more about how to be prepared. I haven't done much, just buying that extra bag of lentils here and there. I need to get the water situation taken care of, as that seems to me to be the biggest issue...

Thanks again to you and everyone else for all the great suggestions! My husband is a big James Howard Kunstler fan, and if you've read any of his stuff, you know that peak oil will be TEOCAWKI!!! Yikes....


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Hey, I just found this link to a great commercial version of the 'hobo' type cookstoves and it can use twigs and other 'scraps' of wood. Much more conservative than using entire logs...and it's fairly cheap too!

http://www.tipistove.com/tipilite.htm

I'll have to check that author out, but I can only imagine what would happen to our economy if oil production was suddenly stopped or prevented somehow....ugh!

Not that we shouldn't be looking into renewable sources, but our country (esp) isn't ready for a sudden 'cut off'....


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## cchrissyy (Apr 22, 2003)

wow you really know your stuff









I wanted to add, for your "go bag", to bakcup your computer to Cd or DVd and put that in there. If your emergency is fire, flooding, or such and the computer would be lost, this way you've got your photos, your documents, your family history or other archives like that, and also scna in your birth certificates, drivers' licenses, medical cards, wahtever, and you'll have all that in one place, ready in the bag!
(and a 2nd copt with a friend or family member can't hurt, you know. and if the comptuer crahses someday, you'll be glad you prepared!)


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## cchrissyy (Apr 22, 2003)

adoptchina,
remember, anything you can get going will help you. the first 1-3 days are when government and other programs will be disoriented and you're really on your own. within a few weeks, stores ought to be getting new stock and utilities (if out )ought to be fixed... so with time, the most common emergency situations get easier.
the first priority ought to be the 72 hour backpacks- and the good news is, your kids can carry their own packs







just make sure your husband has your gear because you'll be using a sling, it seems







And a list of what to include cna be overwhelming, but rmemebr, ANYthing you get will make the time easier on you.
Like, maybe you have food and water but never got the dipes and clothes packed. well, for 3 days, oops! but at least you're not hungry! Or if you got meds packed but forgot little toys, well the kids may be bored but at least they'll have bandaids and tylenol if they need it.. .you know?


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## Artmama (Apr 30, 2004)

Ok, this is Artmama,
Xenabite(sp?) I had no idea that anyone had even answered my post. I checked back on it for a few days and then forgot about it, thinking no one had answered. I need to figure out how to have MDC email me when someone answers a post!
I have no time at the moment as the babysitter is leaving, but I am going to read all the posts and learn from them. I live in Seattle and I am mostly worried about earthquakes and getting by for a while with out power or water. I feel so overwhelmed by all of this, just another thing to try to do somehow, but I know it is really important. I can barely seem to keep up with keeping food in the house for us to eat NOW!


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## Rainbowbird (Jul 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Artmama*
Ok, this is Artmama,
I feel so overwhelmed by all of this, just another thing to try to do somehow, but I know it is really important. I can barely seem to keep up with keeping food in the house for us to eat NOW!

I totally hear ya on that one.....it is so expensive and time consuming to keep organic, healthy, nutritious food stocked...it all seems to disappear overnight! Let alone trying to stockpile some stuff. I have to remember to start buying just a little extra of some items.


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## Rainbowbird (Jul 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *xenabyte*

I'll have to check that author out, but I can only imagine what would happen to our economy if oil production was suddenly stopped or prevented somehow....ugh!

Not that we shouldn't be looking into renewable sources, but our country (esp) isn't ready for a sudden 'cut off'....

That's his main thing. How stupid this country and most of the west is for not doing more to figure out alternative fuels. The other big thing is suburban sprawl and the death of cities, all related, of course to the use of the automobile and fossil fuel use. He is a really good read. He has a website, too.

The sad thing is if you ask 10 people what "peak oil" is, maybe one will know. I have talked about this with really intelligent, educated folks and many have no idea what I'm talking about. I would guess, though, that a significantly higher % of mothering readers are familiar with the term......


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Here is a decent link that explains 'Peak Oil' Theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

A sudden shortage of viable fossil fuels would definitely fit in the 'TEOTWAWKI' scenario, as most transportation would come to a screeching halt, or we'd only have fuel available for military/government, and maybe some public transportation. But the rest of us that would need access to work, grocery stores, etc might be on the short end of that receiving stick...

I SO wish they'd start making and pushing hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, as they are a VERY renewable resource and are non polluting and maintain current vehicle speeds that most drivers are used to ....but hey, until the oil is gone, they aren't gonna allow that...


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## Rainbowbird (Jul 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *xenabyte*
Here is a decent link that explains 'Peak Oil' Theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

A sudden shortage of viable fossil fuels would definitely fit in the 'TEOTWAWKI' scenario, as most transportation would come to a screeching halt, or we'd only have fuel available for military/government, and maybe some public transportation. But the rest of us that would need access to work, grocery stores, etc might be on the short end of that receiving stick...

I SO wish they'd start making and pushing hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, as they are a VERY renewable resource and are non polluting and maintain current vehicle speeds that most drivers are used to ....but hey, until the oil is gone, they aren't gonna allow that...

Yeah, that is one reason we moved out of our farmable (is that a word?) cabin in the woods to a more village-oriented lifestyle--to be within walking distance to DH's work, shops, etc. b/c before we were driving 12+ miles to get anywhere at all. Of course I could have gotten some chickens and even a goat or cow at the cabin, but still....









Thanks for the link!


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## lula (Feb 26, 2003)

question: I have absolutely no natural water supply available to me. What is the best way to ensure that I would have water on hand? I am thinking about everything from short term to very long term planning. This is the first area I plan on working on so any ideas would be great!

thanks


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Artmama*
Ok, this is Artmama,
Xenabite(sp?) I had no idea that anyone had even answered my post. I checked back on it for a few days and then forgot about it, thinking no one had answered. I need to figure out how to have MDC email me when someone answers a post!

Look up, go up to the right hand side of this page, and find "thread tools", click on it and click on "subscribe to this thread". You can do this to any thread, whether you have posted within it or not.

Also, any time you post, look below the post box, keep going, and there will be a pull-down menu with "Notification Type" above it and click "instant email notification."

HTH


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## cchrissyy (Apr 22, 2003)

lula,
http://beprepared.com/product.asp_Q_...0Gallon%20Drum
something like this is good for storing water... non-portable, of course. keep smaller containers available for on-the-move situations.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

RE: Water Storage

Aye, I was going to say I posted several links to places that carry BIG and small water storage solutions. I personally have 6 of the giant blue storage containers in my basement (they also act as a temperature stabilizer).

I also have collapsable gallon sized ones for portability and then I have glass 'juice jugs' and mason jars with water for short term use (easy to clean and refill, if they are actually used).

I hope NEVER to have to crack open the large blue ones (if you buy that kind, don't forget a manual pump to access it and a long term storage water treatment method)... I would suggest draining, cleaning and refilling every 5 years or so, just to be safe. If you have 'treatment' kits available, then it's not such a worry, but you will have to retreat and filter before use...but then again, this is a long term thing and you will have time on your hands....

There is also a little 'creek' a small hike from my house, and that's another reason for having the portable collapsable storage containers, for picking up, bringing home to treat, and then using. Also nice to have if you need to fill a few up and toss in the back of your car if you are being evacuated somewhere due to a bad weather/diaster situation.

Now, what I personally REALLY want (and bear with me) is an 'on the spot' water generator....now the technology exists in one form or another, we just need some entrepreneurs to make it happen....

Currently, by running an electric current in water, you break it down into oxygen and hydrogen...so there has to be an easy, portable way to reverse this process in a packable form for the consumer...

Hydrogen fuel cells have membranes that allow hydrogen ions and oxygen ions to combine, producing an electric current and pure water as a 'byproduct'. They use them on the space shuttle to makes electricity AND pure water to be used for consumption...so why can't we get small, portable versions?









I was thinking perhaps a small, battery operated unit where you could insert powdered, dry hydrogen pellets (for safety) and it would 'suck' in air and allow the oxygen to pass through a membrane to combine with the hydrogen and produce the needed PURE water, on the spot....it would require consumable pellets, so SOMEBODY can make money off of it selling the product and the pellets in a storable form, until needed, and then there are the batteries you would need.... I'm sure there is a 'free energy' (ie, solar) way to do this, but if no one makes any money, then it's hard to get that kind of product developed for marketing...

I wonder if you could even have duel air filters (membranes) to allow hydrogen and oxygen to combine spontaneously (using solar cells for powering it) to have a small floor unit for personal home use....then once you'd purchased the piece of equipment, it's free water... I have heard of a water generator that condenses the humidity from the air to produce quite a bit of water for home use...but you need to live in a humid location and have a power source to run the condenser coils.

Ok, enough wishing....just some food for thought, maybe there is a engineering mom or dad out there who has the means or know how to do something like that!


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## cloudswinger (Jan 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *xenabyte*
I have heard of a water generator that condenses the humidity from the air to produce quite a bit of water for home use...but you need to live in a humid location and have a power source to run the condenser coils.

Based on the water that was leaking in my house, I already have one of these!

Seriously though, I never thought of recapturing the water that comes off the average air conditioner/heat pump. The only problem is the power source. And if you live in a humid area already, like I do, it's kind of easier to just capture the rain water. Especially during hurricane season.


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## Artmama (Apr 30, 2004)

I am amazed at all of this, and I am being serious. I am in awe. I am going to just try to do a little here and there. I never feel like I have enough time(I have a business and a two year old) to even read a book or anything. I just feel overwhelmed and kind of hopeless right now. Where should I even start?


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## Rebecca (Dec 4, 2002)

I've seen drawings for a solar water collector, but I'm not sure if it could produce enough water for regular consumption.

Dig a deep hole and put a collection bucket at the bottom. Cover the hole with plastic and weight it in the center above the bucket. The theory is that the cold air in the hole will cause condensation on the plastic and will drip down into the bucket. I'm curious about trying it for kicks one of these days just to see how much is made.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Artmama*
I am amazed at all of this, and I am being serious. I am in awe. I am going to just try to do a little here and there. I never feel like I have enough time(I have a business and a two year old) to even read a book or anything. I just feel overwhelmed and kind of hopeless right now. Where should I even start?

Start small. Do a 72 hour 'go bag' for emergency. That alone could really help you in an emergency of any sort. Leave it in the hall closet or in the back of your car (if you have the room). I have one in my master bedroom closet on the top shelf, away from the little ones.

If you can't find the time to do a 'go bag', figure out some water storage. That's actually more important than food, in an emergency situation...

Then write down your top 5-7 meals that your family will always eat. Try to choose ones that you make from more 'dry or canned' stocked goods. Then try to keep one extra set for each type meal in your pantry (that gives you a 'week cushion' right there).
Make sure when you cook up one of them, to have bought new stuff to replace the 'back up'. (Ie, angel hair pasta and a favorite sauce...so buy two when they are on sale, or more). (Yea, it'd be great if you could store fresh produce long term...but hey, I'm being realistic here). Just hope you can sprout some stuff for your 'fresh' needs during such situations.

Just simple stuff that will give you a 'cushion' zone.

If you can at all afford it, try to buy a nitrogen sealed bucket of some grain or legume (ie, wheat, spelt or lentils or even rice) and keep it in the back of a closet or garage or basement. This will give you /something/ to use in a bit of a longer term emergency. Then buy a few small bags from a regular grocery store shelf of the same stuff, and practice making 'mono' or super simple meals with it. (I.e., lentils and rice, or beans and rice, or just beans, or just some cooked wheat porrage). You do not want to be trying to figure out what to do with long term storage foods when you are in a stressful situaiton.

I started 'stocking up' back in 1998 (pre kids), though I was running my own business at the time. I just did it a little bit at a time, as I could afford it. I am in 'maintain' mode now, and just replace the items as we are using them up.
I do have 'long term' storage items that will not be touched unless we REALLY need them. I might have to 'check' them in about 10-15 years...haha...seriously, a well stored (nitrogen packed) bucket of wheat/spelt will keep and probably still be sproutable up to 50 years later. They found ancient wheat 'dry stored' in the pyramids that they could still sprout. That's how kamut was 'revived' from being an ancient grain!

We don't get hurricanes/tornados or flooding where I live (in Colorado Mountains) and the worst 'natural' diaster might be a really bad snow storm, and in that case, I'm staying put. If a super volcano erupts nearby, we're FUBAR, so oh well...

So that affects my 'go bag' and what items I'd store. Unless there was a chemical/gas spill or a forest fire, we really would not be evacuating our home. Those would be really isolated events and so I'd not worry about having some of the items other families might need in a 'go bag'.

We live close to NORAD and I figure if there is some type of military confrontation and we get 'nuked', we are close enough to a 'ground zero' target that we're FUBAR no matter what...so I have this really nice bottle of wine saved....

As far as other 'bad situations'....

I _DO NOT_ have gas masks, or bio suits, but I _do_ have some homeopathic remedies and stuff for mild radiation poisoning, or viral/bacterial type exposure. (Colloidal silver and olive leaf extract are natural anti viral/bacterial and cinnamon helps the body process excess radiation exposure). Just stuff I use anyway when the kids get the sniffles or if I think we've been exposed to the flu or something. We've not been 'sick' in so long, I'm not sure if it's the way we eat/live or the preventative (herbal) measures I take when we've been around others with 'stuff'....

Sorry, I know that just added to your list of things to consider, but I was thinking about them when I was responding to your question. Don't let this stress you, just take it a little bit at a time.

Remember /usually/ 3 days is the resond time for government help, not that we can't have situations where it takes much longer (ugh, as we all have seen from the recent hurricanes in the south), but you need to decide what diasters might strike in the part of the country where you live, and plan accordingly. I do not think I'd be living near the ocean and NOT be prepared for at least a month or two of self sufficiency...

/hugs to you!


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## cloudswinger (Jan 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rebecca*
I've seen drawings for a solar water collector, but I'm not sure if it could produce enough water for regular consumption.

Dig a deep hole and put a collection bucket at the bottom. Cover the hole with plastic and weight it in the center above the bucket. The theory is that the cold air in the hole will cause condensation on the plastic and will drip down into the bucket. I'm curious about trying it for kicks one of these days just to see how much is made.

I've seen this too, but more as a way to filter salt or brackish water. if you put a pool of the unclean water in the middle, the condensated water running off the sides should be clean. Somewhere I saw it for when you get lost at sea. Maybe it was a movie or something. But I can't imagine trying to get water out of the air, especially in some of the dryer climates. And around here the air in the soil is not very cold at all, and if you dug deep enough, you're much more likely to hit limestone.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

If you collect bad or salt water in a large container, and could put a piece of glass slanted over the opening (and somehow seal the rest to capture all the evaporation...like a solar oven set up), then the water will evaporate and collect on the glass and then run down it. You just need to have a half tube, slightly slanted at the bottom of the glass to capture the water and 'funnel' it into a collection container.

If you dig a hole, even in desert sand, and put in a bucket, then lay a piece of plastic over the top, and weigh it down with rocks (allow some of the plastic to 'dip down' with a small hole in the center to allow the water to drip into the bucket), the 'dew' from the warm air will cool and release the moisture and will collect on the plastic/rocks and drip into the bucket. It will work, even in fairly low humidity situations...you should give it a try, Cloudswinger.









There have been several 'variations' on that theme for 'desert island' and such movies too. You might not get alot of water, but maybe enough to keep you from being thirsty!

I still want a 'spontaneous' water generator...


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## Artmama (Apr 30, 2004)

Xenabyte,

You are so amazingly knowledgable. I want to come live in the mountains with you, and let you take care of me. Tee Hee.

I guess I am most concerned with just a week or so on our own, I do not know if I have the ability to cope with being too much more prepared than that, although I am getting inspired.

I have some of those big plastic containers of water now, I just figure that I will use them and replace them as I need to, just make sure we always have some there. Then I do not know what our source of h20 would be.

I really liked your suggestions of how to deal with the food, it made it seem clearer to me. Honestly, I think we could scrouge in my cupboards and live for at least 3 or 4 days IF our gas stove was working. We also have a gas grill we could use. Maybe I should keep extra propane for that?

What about if there is no way to cook, you need to be able to cook for rice and such, right? That is what I am concerned with, should I just have a ton of canned goods in case we cannot cook?


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

I have a gas stove also, and if the lines go out, here are my personal backups, maybe my list will help you decide what you might need or want to do as well:

1. We have 3 propane tanks (portable sized you get at grocery store for grill). We use one, and keep two in reserve. I always make sure I have at least two in reserve. They store easily and take warm temps, like a garage, very well.

2. Solar oven. I have a commercial one. It heats up really fast (averages 350% F in about 10 minutes...that'll cook almost any food, almost at conventional speeds) and works great on rice/casserole type dishes. You just need some sunshine, cold temps will not really effect it, just need to watch the 'slant' of the sun in the winter, as you have less hours for cooking.

3. Dark black, enamel coated pot with lid and some of the heavy duty 'turkey roasting' baggies. Tin foil and cardboard. Hehe...this is the 'McGiver' solar oven. You put water and rice/pre soaked beans' in your pot. Put covered pot in the baggie to hold in a 'thermal' layer of heat. You cover some cardboard with tinfoil and set the pot/baggie assembly on it.

You can angle the now shiney cardboard to help reflect more solar rays towards the pot. This really works! There are a few more 'tweeks' you can do, like puffing up the baggie so more hot air is captured, but this will work. You can do a 'fancier' solar oven with cardboard boxes and just the plastic bags for a 'lid' covering, but hey...

4. Charcoal briquettes and a metal chimney 'stove oven' type heat assembly. It takes small amount of briquettes and will boil water pretty fast.

5. Gather twigs and use a modified 'hobo' oven, as mentioned. I might actually build one of clay and fire it. Then it'd look cool sitting on my back patio...will remind you of a chimera type oven.

6. I am trying to convince the dH to let me build a 'mud oven' in the backyard. Will probably store charcoal for it. You can do animal shapes and it supposedly makes great breads. But you need to keep a supply of wood (or charcoal) to burn. I'm not hot on having another wood pile, after the last one we had got a TON of mice living in it...

7. I have lots of 'canned goods' that would work in a pinch for a few days to a week. So that's the other option. I have a 'fondue' pot burner and some of the tins of alcohol that burns in them. It will warm stuff up ok. I scored big time a few days ago. A grocery store was going out of business and had a 50% off everything sale. I bought a cart full of staples, dry goods and canned goods.







I would probably try to use the other options first and then use canned goods on cloudy or rainy days. I also have a few MRE type meals, but ugh, the taste is gross to me.

8. If I can't heat/cook anything, you can still 'sprout' wheat, seeds, beans and legumes and such with clean water and then chew on it 'raw'. It will keep until needed (sprouted). You might have to wait a day to eat, but you will survive. The raw nutrients in the sprouts will probably be healthier and more vitamin/mineral packed than anything you can cook, anyway.









So that's my plan, in a nutshell. I have a few other ideas I'm working on, but that's what I have currently.

Oh, I just thought, I personally hate the taste of the stuff, but there is 'instant' rice and bean packets you can buy that you just add water and eventually it'll look something like rice and or beans (like refried ones)...


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## rn (Jul 27, 2003)

I have started making lists on what we would need as a family, and stocking up a bit.
Here is my question.

If I were to buy a 25 or 50 lb. bag of rice, beans, flour, and sugar I am realizing from all of this good information that I would probably NOT want to store them in the bags they come in from the store.

So what would I do? would those large 5 gallon buckets work? would I need to do something to them prior and then to seal the lids?

I am looking for the most economical way to do this and would like to be able to purchase them irl, I am not a good internet shopper.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

If you had a bakery or a HUGE family where you could go thorugh a bag like that pretty quickly, then it's ok if you have a safe, rodent/pest free pantry.

But I ALWAYS suggest the buckets, and with the 'spin' lids if you can get them.

The ONLY commercial source that I know of that carries such type buckets with a spin lid already on them, is a large pet food chain, such as Petsmart or Petco. They have them in the storage isle. They are not cheap that way, but are convenient and you don't have to order online that way. The bucket is made of number 2 plastic, HDPE, the best of the 'plastics' and so it's food safe. They are designed for storing large amounts of doggie kibble and such. I have a few of them myself. They work great.

I found a bunch of plastic buckets a bakery was getting rid of, and just bought the 'spin lids' online to make them easier to access. That might be an option, check out large chain bakeries that buy their products in the big white buckets....they LOVE getting rid of them, as they take up a large space for trash.

You can store grains straight in the bucket and seal, but the 'shelf life' will be affected. If you are going to be using the stuff up, and just replacing when low, then you would be ok. For the long term, 'Don't Crack Unless it's An Emergency' type storage, you will need nitrogen packets and mylar bags to put the grain in to keep it oxygen free. This is not a fun 'chore' to do and I'm not sure where you could buy such things locally. I've only seen that type stuff online from commercial storage sites, which is where I got mine for baggine up several 50 lb bags of rice and pinto beans...

If you know of a local Mormon, err, Church of Latter Day Saints, you might contact them and ask if they have a women's group that does bulk storage projects (I'd be surprised if they didn't)....you could ask to attend and maybe make a few friends that will have such things on hand or know of a local source and they can help you to learn to can (using a real canner with number 10 tins....) and other typical canning, in glass 'ball' jars.... I love the Mormons, err, Latter Day Saints, they are the epitomy of 'preparedness' in many ways...

Hope that answers your question.


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## rn (Jul 27, 2003)

so what do you think the shelf life may be then? It would take us a long time to use up a 25 lb bag of anything. But I guess I could buy it and that could be what we are always using. and restocking as it gets low. I am thinking at least 6 months for most products. Which I guess would probably be okay. Am I answering my own question?

I will for sure get some of those round jugs w/ spinning lids.

Regarding the lds'rs. I have to chuckle a little as I have been working closely on this w/ a friend of mine who is lds, she is not yet fully prepared but her parents are amazingly well prepared (food is stashed under every bed in their home!). She has invited me to her local wards cannery also, which I may do w/ her this fall.

So yes, I agree those mormons are amazing with what they prepare for! I have gotten some great tips and ideas from them as well.

thanks again xenabyte.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

sigh

So, you're saying I need to go buy giant buckets from the pet store (saw some yesterday) to dump my giant bags of beans & rice into?







: Then, what? I guess I'd planned to rotate them out every year &just donate them to the food bank. But, if I repackage them....hmmmmm....what would I do w/them when it's time to rotate?

Oh, how often DO you rotate?

sigh

--subbing to the thread


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## Rebecca (Dec 4, 2002)

You can also get the 5 gal buckets at Walmart with snap on lids (which you have to buy separately). The buckets are in the paint section, HDPE #2 plastic, and they're foodgrade. I called the company to check. You can buy screw on lids at www.emergencyessentials.com, though I don't have any and do fine with the snap ons for now.

I buy foods I already use and store them in the buckets, in their own bags if possible. I buy 25# bags of organic flour, rice and oatmeal and go through each in about 3 mos (ok, longer for the rice). I get the big bags of grain from my food coop. So I don't really worry about 'rotating them out' since I'm constantly using and replenishing. The good things about that is that they are foods we all actually eat (my kids aren't big bean eaters), and I know how to prepare good, easy foods with them. It would be terrible to have a ton of food no one likes or you don't know what to do with, or worse, your body isn't used to eating, especially under times of stress. I keep bags of TVP for protein (and some beans, but not tons). Seasoned with taco seasoning or in spaghetti sauce, it's quite good.

If I were to buy foods strictly for emergency use, I'd buy nitrogen sealed. My goal is to have a bunch on hand, but to use it, and keep bugs and as much moisture as I can out. The paper bags just won't cut it for that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BusyMommy*
sigh

So, you're saying I need to go buy giant buckets from the pet store (saw some yesterday) to dump my giant bags of beans & rice into?







: Then, what? I guess I'd planned to rotate them out every year &just donate them to the food bank. But, if I repackage them....hmmmmm....what would I do w/them when it's time to rotate?

Oh, how often DO you rotate?

sigh

--subbing to the thread


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## rn (Jul 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rebecca*
I buy foods I already use and store them in the buckets, in their own bags if possible. I buy 25# bags of organic flour, rice and oatmeal and go through each in about 3 mos (ok, longer for the rice).
If I were to buy foods strictly for emergency use, I'd buy nitrogen sealed. My goal is to have a bunch on hand, but to use it, and keep bugs and as much moisture as I can out. The paper bags just won't cut it for that.

I think this is just what I am going to do w/ certain foods. We use rice, flour, beans and a few other things I can get in those large quantities. and I have room in an easy access closet near my kitchen to store the big buckets, I can just keep a smaller amount out in my pantry and replenish from the big bucket as I go.

With the canned goods I have started to buy I am keeping an inventory w/ the expiration dates and w/ probably end up donating most of them a few months prior to the dates. We arent big canned veggie and fruit eaters but feel the need to buy them and keep them on hand for emergency use.

Maybe if I had A Lot of room I would spend the time and money for the nitrogen sealed also, but for now this method will have to do. I am still feeling good about becoming and remaining prepared. If something ever does happen I will at least know I did everything I could and knew of at the time to take care of and protect my family.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Since most of your questions were answered, before I could reply...







Here are a few general tips on shelf life:

White 'de-hulled' or refined products (Rice, flour, barley, sugar, etc) are pretty much bullet proof if you keep them dry and safe from pests.

So if you have 25 lb bags of white flour, white sugar and white rice, they will keep more than a year pretty easily, and probably still be edible quite longer if kept in an air proof bucket (or tupperware type thing) with a lid. NO need to worry about nitrogen sealing.

I do keep some of this on hand and store it straight (no inner sealed bags) in a bucket and just fill up my pantry cannisters from them. One 25 pound bag of each lasts me near a year or longer for rice, especially.

I am only buying canned goods that we'd eat at least once a month. I hate to waste canned goods, but giving it away to a 'local pantry' is a great idea, if you can do it right before expiration and you know you won't use it.

In addition to nitrogen sealed and mylar bagged buckets of all my grains/beans and some seeds....

I have small amounts of whole wheat berries, spelt and kamut, millet and chia seeds in my pantry in glass mason jars and a few in plain old ziplock gallon bags.

This is what I use and grind fresh...so no worries about spoilage.
Plus if the grain is left intact on wheat/spelt/kamut, it can keep for up to 15 years, even if not under the best circumstances...

The smaller grains, like millet and such seem to develop an off smell if not vacuum packed/nitrogen sealed, within about 6 months. That's usually a 'boon' day for the local birds....Just FYI.

Quaker Oats (old fashioned) are pretty much bullet proof. They hull, roll (flake) and then steam processed the oats to remove ALL the oils (and much of the nutrients) and then are quick dried.

This prevents the oils from going rancid, a good thing, but it removes all the nutritional value, pretty much.

I spoke to the company rep and they can be used years after the expiration date, if they are kept dry and sealed. They are like eating fiber rich cardboard. Sorry to burst any bubbles out there about the wonderfulness of oats...if you are buying them pre flaked, they are just fiber and no nutrition except for what you might add to them to flavor them....they can actually leach nutrients from the body as they have a strong chelation effect (good for chloesterol), but not for everything else....

If you buy whole oats, and plan on grinding them 'on the spot', then you will have all the nutritional value. But you will need to store large amounts in nitrogen sealed bags. The oils are less stable in them, compared to wheat/spelt/kamut berries.

You can not eat the rough husk, and they have to be dehulled to be sold for human cosumption, otherwise they would have a long shelf life as well.

Barley is 'dehulled' in a similar fashion, as the hulls are TOTALLY indigestible. So much of the nutrition is removed. What is left is a fairly 'bullet proof', yet somewhat still nutritious product. I'd seal with a vacuum sealer or nitrogen packs, just to be safe.

They have developed a barley grain that still has it's coating, but that is edible. (www.montanawheat.com) I think has it. It's REALLY expensive, and somewhat limited, but it's a nutritional boon! I'm thinking about ordering a pre-sealed bucket, as it makes a great addition to soup and breads.

I think you are totally on the right track.







You are doing what you can and that's more than most will have if they have an emergency situation.

Good luck on the fall canning. I miss my old friend that used to take me with her to her ward for such adventures...


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## rn (Jul 27, 2003)

okay, so I saw those buckets at walmart today and they are super cheap BUT they are 2 HDPE. What is the difference between that and #4?

also, Heather you are awesome w/ your knowledge. So I now know I will be pretty safe w/ large amounts of white flour rice and other white products. What about wheat flours, Brown rice and also beans and lentils? will I find worms growing in them if stored too long? (yuck)
They will be stored in a rodent free and dry environment, the most extreme thing will be the heat every once in a while when we are gone and the a.c is off in the summer (we live in the desert).


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## Rebecca (Dec 4, 2002)

I think I typed the wrong number. HDPE #2 is what most 5 gal food buckets are made from.
http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/plastics.html


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Oooopssssss! typo, sorry, *#2 is the HDPE*, and LDPE is the other 'ok' one. I was cleaning house for some company coming over and didn't look over what I'd typed! Sorry! Both are ok for food, but 2 is the better one. So that's great!

HDPE means High Density Polyethelene and the LDPE is low density.

Beans should be ok, even without nitrogen, though they can get even more 'dried out' over the long term (speaking years here) and are hard to rehydrate and cook then.
I'm not sure that even nitrogen packing can help in that respect, so I'd not worry about it too much.
What I've done, since the pre-packaged stuff is 'bug free'....is just stack up several grocery store purchased bags of it in a bucket and pop a lid on it. That keeps rodents out and will help with temperature changes and humidity levels.
If you buy lentils and such that way, ditto.

Wheat kernals and other whole wheat type (Kamut and Spelt) grains should be fine for a year or two, even with temperature variations...and maybe even up to 25 years, according to some studies done with long term storage at ambient temperatures. I'd not worry about bugs getting to it, as they will die from lack of oxygen if it's packed in a bucket tightly and sealed well. Usually you find weevils and such from containers that still allow some oxygen and such to get in.

They sell diatomaceous earth (a flour like powder) that you can sprinkle with the grains/legumes to kill any critters. It's harmless to ingest, but you would be rinsing the grain/legumes/beans before using anyway....

I'd worry about storing brown rice long term (year +), due to the oils still present. It might keep if stored tightly, but if it smells 'off' I would not use it. The volitility of the oils is one of the reasons rice was 'hulled' to make white rice, for long term storage issues.

Wheat flour (ground) needs to be refrigerated or frozen to prevent the oils from going rancid. So that is not really a good 'long term' food storage item. I am of the strict opinion, that once you break that kernal and grind it, you should be using that flour pretty quickly to bake/cook it. If you have left over flour, freeze/refrigerate it in tightly sealed container to preserve the freshness. MOST ALL pre-ground, _room temp packaged flours_ are going rancid or are rancid, depending on when it was ground, packaged and shipped. Ditto for any other 'whole grain' flours.

I'm kinda tired from cooking/cleaning and having company over, so I hope I didn't make too many typos/spelling errors. I'll check back in the morning if you have more questions.







I'm off for a long hot bath!


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## rn (Jul 27, 2003)

Quote:

Wheat flour (ground) needs to be refrigerated or frozen to prevent the oils from going rancid. So that is not really a good 'long term' food storage item. I am of the strict opinion, that once you break that kernal and grind it, you should be using that flour pretty quickly to bake/cook it.
okay, that makes sense to me... well it all does. but this just rang a bell for me as at my friends moms house I was looking at a paper she had and it listed wheat as one of the basic items that you can store forever and has many uses. so I guess eventually I will need to buy a grinder and some wheat. (So much to think about!)

Where can a regular person in a city buy unhulled wheat anyway? the mormons? (lol)

You bringing up the oils in foods going bad is reminding me of another question which is the shelf life of oils themselves... I know they do not have long shelf lives at all... but do you think olive oil may store longer in one of those metal containers rather than a glass or plastic jug they also come in?
Do you have any overstock of oils you store long term?
I have been told that coconut oil is a good one, but really that none of them store well.

oh and that is great about the #2's. they are less than $4 each and the lids are less than $2 at WM.


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## sweetpeas (May 12, 2004)

Just a quick tip my dad gave me. Your water heater is generally full of water, so that's 50 gallons (give or take, depending on how big your tank is obviously) of water you can drain out & use. I never would have thought of that LOL.


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## sweetpeas (May 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rn*
You bringing up the oils in foods going bad is reminding me of another question which is the shelf life of oils themselves... I know they do not have long shelf lives at all... but do you think olive oil may store longer in one of those metal containers rather than a glass or plastic jug they also come in?
Do you have any overstock of oils you store long term?

Here's a chart (for soap makers, but should still apply) that gives shelf life of different oils. http://www.soapnuts.com/shelf.html Adding Vitamin E oil (Walmart sells small bottles of it in the vitamin section but I'm not sure if it's food grade or not, I use it in bath products so whether or not it's edible isn't something I worry about) will help to keep it from going rancid for awhile, but I don't know how long.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Regarding oil:

If it's sealed in an airtight container it helps to keep until opened. But you'd need to buy ALOT of small, sealed containers and that's way more expensive than buying something in bulk.

I purchase 'Tropical Traditions' brand 'EXPELLER' pressed coconut oil (which is solid at room temp, unless your house is really hot) in 5 gallon buckets and that will keep at room temp a LONG time. It can be used for any recipe calling for oil or a shortening. If you like, you can buy it in smaller containers to help keep if fresh, but really, that's the way to go regarding preventing rancidity, and having a multipurpose cooking oil on hand.

The Virgin Coconut oil is not refined at all, and has a 'smell' to it still, which some like and some do not in their cooking (smells good on your skin/hair though). This oil has a long shelf life, but would tend to go 'rancid' quicker. I think they have 'storage' info on their site.

Other than that, they sell a high vitamin E content 'Palm Oil' that can be used and will keep a long long time. It's kinda orange in color.

I love grapeseed oil, but keep it in my refrigerator, so that's not a good long term item. Olive oil is great stuff, but I find it smells 'off' after opening and if kept at room temps. After having done a liver flush with the stuff, I can't stand to eat it anymore...hahah...

Lard keeps at room temp (if you are in to that) and ghee is butter with the protein solids removed and is shelf stable.

Here is a little know thing, you can 'CAN' butter (think little half pint jelly jars) and it will keep for up to 3 years if kept out of sun and high heat.....

Here is a link: http://www.internet-grocer.net/butter.htm

Here are the directions too:

**How to can butter**
By: Vertex
17 December 2003
1. Any butter can be used but the higher quality butters will be easier to work with. There isn't as much separation.
2. One pound of butter is a little more then a pint so it is easy to figure how many one pint jars you will need.
3. First clean your jars thoroughly and put them in an oven at 250 degrees F. for about 30 minutes. Put your rings and lids in a small pot and simmer for ten minutes.
4. Next melt the butter slowly until it comes to a boil. Reduce the heat and simmer for five minutes.
5. Then pour the melted butter into the hot jars. I use a large pyrex measuring cup. Make sure you keep the butter stirred so that it doesn't separate.
6. Clean the tops of the jars with a cloth and put on the lids and rings. Tighten securely. Leave about one half of an inch space at the top of the jars.
7. As the jars start to cool you will need to shake them several times. It isn't a necessary step but the butter will look much better if you do.
8. When the jars are cool and SEALED put them in your storage. They should keep for three or four years if kept cool and dark.
Enjoy
Vertex

Hope that answers some of your oil questions

Regarding the 'whole wheat berries', you should be able to find them in a bin at your local health food store (Whole Foods, Vitamin Cottage, Wild Oats type places). You can buy in bulk bags and store in a bucket. They won't usually have 25/50 lb bags available for you, but you can ask their dry goods purchaser, and maybe they'd sell you a bag that way on special order. It'd save you on shipping as they are ordering them that way, and then filling their bins and marking up the price per pound for resale....

Heather


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

While looking up my 'butter canning' link (as I'd lost alot of my saved files from a nasty computer crash a year ago....)

I found this site again and have it bookmarked and spent most of the day saving files and printing stuff for my personal 'preparedness' book:

http://www.alpharubicon.com/prepinfo/prepinfo.htm

There are a TON TON TON of great ideas on this site. You will spend the better part of a day trying to read all the great info there and print it out...

_*Here are a few exceptional ones to be sure to read:*_

*This is a really nice read on how to store eggs long term!*
http://www.alpharubicon.com/primitiv...ragereport.htm

*Great! Info on how to make your own Mozzarella Cheese!*
http://www.alpharubicon.com/primitive/mozzcheeze.htm
*
A general 'How to make Cheese' Info*
http://www.alpharubicon.com/primitiv...sedragoona.htm

*High Capacity 'Solar' Water Still <--This has the plastic and bucket set up with a nice picture:*
http://www.alpharubicon.com/primitive/highcapstill.htm

*Water Needs in General*
http://www.alpharubicon.com/prepinfo...needserger.htm

Happy Reading!

Heather


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## rn (Jul 27, 2003)

thanks for all the great info.

I started checking out those links... I could be here all day reading!


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## Kyamo (Jun 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *xenabyte*
I was thinking perhaps a small, battery operated unit where you could insert powdered, dry hydrogen pellets (for safety) and it would 'suck' in air and allow the oxygen to pass through a membrane to combine with the hydrogen and produce the needed PURE water, on the spot....it would require consumable pellets, so SOMEBODY can make money off of it selling the product and the pellets in a storable form, until needed, and then there are the batteries you would need.... I'm sure there is a 'free energy' (ie, solar) way to do this, but if no one makes any money, then it's hard to get that kind of product developed for marketing...

I think the problem with this is the fact that hydrogen at room temperature is a gas, it would have to be solid to make pellets. And hydrogen gas is flammable!


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

My gosh, xenabyte, I feel like a totally unprepared irresponsible dork compared to you. I guess that's because I am! In fact, I have been trying to use up all of our cans of food and other pantry items in anticipation of a kitchen remodel.

Do you think I should get a storage shed in the backyard, or is that overkill? Our house is jampacked with stuff and our garage is not available. This thread is about to make me forget about the kitchen remodel and just move to a more rural area anyway.

Do you think people should stash money and weapons, too? We're in Texas, and dh and I both owned guns. We sold the guns when we had children for obvious reasons.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kyamo*
I think the problem with this is the fact that hydrogen at room temperature is a gas, it would have to be solid to make pellets. And hydrogen gas is flammable!

Yes Hydrogen is a gas, but even back in the 70s (aka a mother earth news) there was a story about a man using hydrogen to fuel his entire farm and vehicles. He'd found a way to make safe 'pellets' that would dissolve into a safe powder if the vehicle was ever in an accident...

They use a similar process in Hydrogen fuel cell 'vehicles of the future' technology research that they are working on for modern or futuristic vehicles...but geez, we've had it since the 70s...so what's the hold up









Oh that's right...Big Brother Gas Man doesn't want the competition!









They also have 'fuel rods' that are a hydrogen saturated composite compound, where the hydrogen would be used up in the combustion process and the left over rods could then be removed, serviced, and reused...but gee, that sounds too efficient and 'clean' for them to actually put it into production!

/cheers

Heather


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *inezyv*
My gosh, xenabyte, I feel like a totally unprepared irresponsible dork compared to you. I guess that's because I am! In fact, I have been trying to use up all of our cans of food and other pantry items in anticipation of a kitchen remodel.

Do you think I should get a storage shed in the backyard, or is that overkill? Our house is jampacked with stuff and our garage is not available. This thread is about to make me forget about the kitchen remodel and just move to a more rural area anyway.

Do you think people should stash money and weapons, too? We're in Texas, and dh and I both owned guns. We sold the guns when we had children for obvious reasons.

Ahhh, don't feel that way! Hey are you anywhere near the Red River Valley in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area? According to some stuff I've read, that's an awesome place to be....If you are in the Houston area, I'd move, but hey, I used to live in that area...haha...some of the nastiest chemicals known are being manufactured in the Houston area! Would hate to be around when/if a spill happened...

I say do what you fell you need to do. I think preparedness is like taking out an insurance policy for you and your families future, like you would for your health or car or a life insurance policy to take care of your kids if something happened to you or the Dh...

I just put in new stuff in our kitchen (so I understand that), but am working on getting some upgrades for the basement for long term storage. Do your kitchen AND get some outside storage. Live your life, but prepare as much as you can comfortably.

If you can afford it, put in a RO or water filtration system in your kitchen, it'll make your water cleaner for daily use and it might give you a bit more time if the water got 'bad' and you needed to fill up containers. Plus, you can modify a RO unit to be manually operated.

The sites I just listed do recommend keeping some cash on hand, in case, as they say, the SHTF, plastic doesn't count for anything if the electricity is out and you are trying to buy some last minute supplies/gas/etc or need it for other emergency purchases down the road.

I think one person suggested about $75 in small change, so if you can't get change, you are less likely to have the price marked up if you can come close in cash. It depends on how much cash you can afford to keep on hand safely. I know folks that buy gold and silver coins, jic the monetary system went screwy, then they'd have precious metal to back up the '_then_' valueless paper money. But that's a REALLY bad situation... I think I had 2k on hand for y2k, but it's in the bank now...but I might get out a small amount to keep on hand again....it's just hard to keep and not spend









_Geez, regarding guns ownership_, I usually try to avoid PC subjects for personal reasons, as I feel everyone needs to decide what's right for them, but in the case of gun ownership:

For long term situations, if you are a properly trained gun owner/user, then I would say get/keep one.

But don't buy one if you are an 'arm chair' gun owner, that will never have opened the box, taken it to a range and learned how to safely use it, and feel comfortable with it. If you are more scared of holding it, than the thought of actually needing it and maybe using it, then a potential 'bad guy' will most likely take it from you and use it on you! (If you both owned guns and live in Texas, I Don't think you'd fit into the arm chair type person...







)

When the police are not around to help you, you need to help yourself, using whatever method you are comfortable with. Just be super safe with storage and proper use.

Actually, having kids around 'to protect' made me want to keep mine even more, but I used to train security guards how to shoot at a gun shop and pistol range I worked at. So I was very well trained and comfortable with using a variety of hand guns. I am super _super_ safe with storage and locking it up, and keeping the ammo seperate, but both accessable in case of any emergency.

The kids do NOT have toy weapons, but are aware of what a gun is and can do if used (will hurt/kill someone) and should not be played with. Even if they found the storage safe, it's coded with a numeral key designed to fit an adult hand.... I'm not afraid of guns, I'm more afraid of looters breaking into our house during a stressful time and _taking more than just food and water...._

So nuff on that. Don't want to offend anyone that's super afraid of or just 'anti' guns and really can't stomach the idea of having one in the house, but I know that there are others that are the total opposite. VERY personal decision there.

I really want a 'stun' setting laser like in Star Trek...effective but not deadly...oh well... I do have 'safety' bullets loaded in this order (just for reference and safety issues):

First two rounds are a 'shotshell' type bullet that sprays the area with the equivalent of rock salt, painful, but not deadly (so if you are jittery or not aiming well for whatever reason) or they are too stupid to take you seriously... These are the 'warning shots'...then I have two 'safety slugs' that will expand once they hit any solid surface. This prevents them from going into a wall and coming out the other side (safety issue in a house). Then the last two are FMJ...nuff said.

I have a 357 S&W, but load it with 38s, for the ability to get an even better aim, as there is less recoil. If I was buying another one, I'd actually get just a 22LR, as the aim is great, and regardless of what macho men say about big guns and all that, with the better aim you can get from having so little recoil, it's just as effective. It's a good small game hunting tool, as well, (_and that might be the more important thing on ownership_) if it's needed.

Ok, sorry this was so long and probably way TMI for some on guns...again, don't want to offend any, but hey, diversity!

Heather


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I'm still reading this..I remember this thread so I resurrected it. My biggest concern is water. While we have some storage in our basement, I'm kind of a minimalist and don't really want to get into storing massive amounts of stuff in case of emergency. I'm slowly building up a mini water and canned good supply, I have extra flashlights and batteries, etc. pretty minimal. But the whole water thing concerns me because (obviously) it's the most necessary, and I'm thinking the only case we might need it would be a rather dire one, meaning it might be more than a day or two. I'm trying to work out how much one should keep on hand, how long these bottled waters last, where I can buy larger jugs of bottled water, etc. etc. etc. I was checking out those drums, but they're not cheap and I'm wondering if I could buy them locally, how much I should store. Your list is very impressive! btw I really appreicate all this info here. I hope this thread can get started again.


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## Awaken (Oct 10, 2004)

thanks for this thread- it just caught my eye b/c I've been working on emergency preparedness a lot lately.

I had a question about water, also. we have a case of bottled water, but I also have a lot of empty plastic water bottles that I could gradually fill up and build up quite a supply for the car or other areas of the house.

My ? is, is it safe to just fill up used, washed water bottles with filtered water, and have them sit for 6 months at a time? or would they grow harmful bacteria?


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## Livi's Mama (Apr 25, 2003)

Quote:

My ? is, is it safe to just fill up used, washed water bottles with filtered water, and have them sit for 6 months at a time? or would they grow harmful bacteria?
I don't know about the bacteria, but I've read that bottles of that sort are meant as one-time-use items & will leach toxins into the water if reused. I just read a tip in Countryside magazine by a lady that cans water. Boils the jars/lids & some separate water, then fills the canning jars & stores them when they are sealed. I think she said she's tried them after a couple years & the water tastes fine. Obviously it would take some time/supplies/space, but I thought that was a great idea, especially if a person already has jars sitting empty. I've been filling milk jugs for water to dump in the toilet, etc & will probably start canning water (that just sounds so funny!) here & there.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

One of the links on the first page sold these big drums (or maybe you saw it) to store water, and also these drops that keep harmful bacteria at bay. They're not really that expensive, but I guess I wasn't sure about just ordering these giant plastic things through the mail without knowing how much to get or how to properly store it. Ugh I never have enough time to research anything enough.


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## bluets (Mar 15, 2005)

so i'm trying to figure out what kind of natural disaster(s) we should consider. where we are in the midwest USA, our house is well above the floodplain and our town is probably passable were there to be a large flood (it would have to be 1000 yr records to do large-scale damage).

our area's biggest (immediate and realistic) concern is tornadoes. if one spends all the time and money stocking the pantry, only to have it blown away.... what then?


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I'm in the Midwest too, same situation. I was more concerned with, um (this feels faintly ridiculous, like I've fallen prey to sensationalized news stories of alarmism) a terrorist attack. I don't really fear a bomb dropping on my house, but I do fear something happening again like 9/11 anywhere, which is entirely possible. Should it happen in Chicago, where I live, I owe it to my kids to be kind of prepared with at least the most basic necessities to survive. This is the only time I can imagine something happening to the water supply. I've never heard of water supplies being down for a tornado or strom. But I'm not well read on the topic of disaster preparedness or possibilities. I hate to be alarmist, but want to be prepared too.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Hey, glad to see some activity, thought I'd scared everyone away after my last post









*So regarding water.....here are some OLD links to water quality and some solutions that you might find useful: (Yea, search function!)*

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...=micron+filter

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...=micron+filter

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...=micron+filter

*This one was regarding food storage, but mentions water too:*

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...=micron+filter

In general, those number 1 plastic drinking water bottles are designed for one time use, and can eventually harbor bacteria due to the nature of the plastic. Technically if you were REALLY sure that the water was super clean, and the container was, it would be ok to store for a bit. But I have found out the hard way, they DO eventually leak and you might have to treat the water after opening if something got in there while filling the bottles.

Gallon plastic milk jugs are the worst as far as eventually leaking (FYI).

I would learn the glass jar 'canning' technique, if you have a stable storage structure that would insure they don't all tip over and break if you have a severe tectonic disturbance (earthquakes) or flooding issues that can wash them away.

I love my large blue cannisters. As far as how many you need? You take the number of people you have in your household, and multiply the number of gallons per person per day you will use, times the number of days you want to be provided with drinking/cooking/washing water.

Rough estimates are about a gallon per person per day, that includes water to drink and cook/rehydrate food stuffs. Some water will be needed to clean hands and personal body parts, and any dishes/silverware that isn't disposable. If you have pets or are working harder than normal (gathering food, etc) you might need more. This is not even including any for a 'quicky' shower or baths or clothes cleaning, just a little 'sponge' wash up and hands/face/teeth.

Remember hot water heaters, the actual water lines in your house, and if you have warning/time, filling up bath tubs and any spare pots, pans and large water tight containers you can get your hands on! This will help extend your actual 'stored' supply. You can get cheap treatments (plain ol chlorox bleach or iodine tablets) that will help these unconventional sources last longer safely too!

I would maybe consider investing in 'rain barrels' that they sell that sit below your gutter spouts to harvest ANY rain. Even if this is used for washing clothes and body parts or watering the garden (if it's edible).

A reverse osmosis unit will help any water flow still coming through your lines to be clean. It runs off pressure and doesn't need electricity unless it has a built in UV unit (which is just super super extra protection). There are ways to run the unit by hand, but it involves 'pumping' to build enough pressure to keep the flow going. A whole house filter will similarly help somewhat from contaminants, but I'd still use a 'sterilizing' technique like solar oven pasturization or chemical (ie, bleach) treatment, boiling or a good quality hand filter before drinking it, esp if elderly or a young child is drinking it.

AFTER all that, I'd look at locating some local creeks, streams or what not you could maybe hike to on foot and gather from for the long term duration. Have a good local area map and mark the locations. Maybe take a day walk to see just how far and hard it would be to actually walk there, then carry several gallons of water back! Plus you might have to do this daily!

Seriously, you can never 'store' enough water for a really long term situation, unless you have a personal underground well tap that you can run manually or a 'norad' type water storage cistern ranging in the millions of gallons!

So in that case, I would just go to REI or another good outdoor store and buy a qood quality hand filter (I've posted links to some good drip water filters also) and or treatment tablets and try to learn of any natural bodies of water nearby. I have posted some things on how to do this for cheap, without buying too much, but you will need to look at the above links to see what I suggested. Rain will be your best friend in this situation...learn to capture and harvest it while it's abundant.

OK. So, water is a big issue, but little bites will get you closer. Speaking of, I need to drain and wash, then refill and treat my big blue barrels. I've heard that doing this yearly is a good thing, as it keeps it a bit 'fresher'. It's been two years, since we had a baby when we moved in to our new house and I didn't do it last year...

On another note, the expiration date on most bottled plastic water bottles is there for the sake of plastic degradation, not actual water going bad. The plastic will start to decompose and affect the water quality! So I guess you could say the water is going bad, in a chemical way...but if stored in glass, the water would still be fine.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Regarding water supply being 'down' during storms. The problem isn't usually that the water gets shut off, but that if you have flooding, or storm damage to the actual water treatment plant, then the water in the supply lines gets horribly contaminated. Not to mention the stuff that might be swirling around on your lawn if the flooding is bad enough. Septic systems and other chemical nasties overflow and affect everything. The water treatment tanks overflow into each other and it's like drinking drain water with all the chemicals, biologicals (sewage) and such in it.














:

Then you have really nasty stuff affecting the water coming out of your pipes. (Ergo, the need to have a good method you are comfortable with to treat your potential drinking water).

If there is an earthquake you would probably see water disrupted due to broken lines. Same for any 'bomb' type situation (ugh).

There is also the issue of 'water terrorism' issues...especially biological/chemical issues.

Sometimes if there is severe storm damage (from hurricanes or tornado activity) the water plant will shut down to help prevent contamination to the supply lines. So then your water would be shut off. Usually this isn't a problem with minor storms. They also might shut down due to lack of electricity to power the pumps in case of any electrical disturbances (grid going offline due to an extreme solar flare <--has happened, power plant going down, terrorism, EMP...etc).

Actually there was a recent article saying how people flushing and tossing prescription meds has affected water supplies, as the treatment plants are NOT designed to remove medicines from the water supply. So a good treatment system for your drinking water is a good idea anyway! So you might be getting a dose of BC pills, prosaic, heart meds or other such things with your dose of chlorine, chlorine byproducts, and flouride! (vomit)

I don't think anyone that thinks about these things is being 'alarmist'. Most of the world hates us and even if 'they' are not out to get us, there are nut jobs here a plenty that love the sensationalism of doing something terrible to see it in the headlines! You are just being cautiously prepared!


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

oh trust me, I used to post on a feminist board, and there were a select few who acted like you were a tool of Bush's silly alarm rating if you feared anything like this happening. I don't see why, they're certainly trying and it's easy to worry when you've got kids and live in a major city.

Thanks for all the info. Now to actually make time to check out those links!


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Heh, know what you mean. Here is one of the more 'info' loaded bits of those links, regarding how to treat water in an emergency, including how to chlorinate (and then hopefully you can let it air off or boil it afterwards so you are not drinking heavy amounts of it...


> Well, first, in a pristine enviroment, rainwater should be equivalent to drinking 'RO' or distilled water. It evaporates off the earth, condenses in the heavens and falls back down as gentle rain and purified water for us to use....(aaahhhh what a pretty picture)...
> 
> However there are these nasty little things called VOCs (volatile organic compounds) and other things with low boiling points that like to evaporate off the ground with the water and end up 'in' the rain (due to man's foul treatment of our lovely planet).
> 
> ...


*For example:*

You found a puddle of water and need to drink it because of a 'bad' situation.
You collect the water in container of choice.
You filter it through some cloth to get rid of any REALLY big stuff (leaves, frogs, bugs...etc).
You then add chlorine bleach (see table) to kill off any biological pathogens or you boil/pasturize it for the recommended time. (Maybe do both, if there were critters in the water, kwim?)

*Then I would do the following to ensure inorganic compounds are removed and the 'chlorine':*

Run the water through any carbon based 'Britta like filter' you have, then drink/cook with it.

OR, I would line a strainer with a large coffee filter. Then I would layer some charcoal (like the kind they sell for fish tank filter use at a pet store) to about 1 inch depth. (It's cheap), then pour your boiled and/or chlorinated water through it.

Now it's ready to drink/cook with. If you are cooking over an open fire for same 'bad' reasons..you could take bits of the burned up wood that are now mini 'charcoal' bits, and use that if all else fails...

**LIQUID CHLORINE BLEACH USAGE* - any brand - must be 5.25% or 6% sodium hypochlorite (like Ultra Clorox) and contain NO soap, fragrance or phosphates. Measuring by drops is more accurate and the preferred method.

*To 1 GALLON or 4 LITERS WATER*
Add 16 drops (1/4 tsp. / 1.25ml) chlorine

*To 5 GALLONS or 19 LITERS WATER*
Add 80 drops (1 tsp. / 5ml) chlorine
This is a good one to print/remember!


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## tamagotchi (Oct 16, 2005)

The problem with something like a Brita filter is that it has a very low capacity (you are supposed to replace the filter after only 20-40 gallons) and also doesn't filter your water very well... you need a lot better carbon filter (or distillation/RO) to effectively protect you from VOCs and other nasty things like lead.

I think this *simple and inexpensive emergency solution* looks great:
http://www.pwgazette.com/gravity.htm

The Doulton ceramic filters are great for filtering out all kinds of biological contaminants, and the Doulton with a carbon core will also filter chemicals better than something like a Brita filter. Doulton filters can be cleaned (you just scrub off any scum on the outside of the ceramic) and will last for thousands of gallons! You can also simply add another carbon filter to the siphoning system that will be more effective on chemicals, lead, VOCs etc.

The same web site also has instructions for *converting your regular countertop filter to a siphoning system in an emergency*. It seems pretty easy to me.
http://www.pwgazette.com/siphon77.htm
Their filter systems are cheap and practical enough that we've recently bought filter systems to send to all our extended family members, both for everyday filtering and "just in case"


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

I agree, Britta type filters are a 'got nothing better' back up solution if you can't afford a nice ceramic or G.A.C. (Granulated Activated Carbon) filter set up. I was going for a 'eeks, I'm screwed and what can I use now' kind of situation in that old water post.







Filter systems and affordable portables have come a LONG way since I wrote that up!









I LOVE my whole house gac system and 5 stage RO for final 'polishing' and super clean water. I have a small bottle of minerals that I add a drop to every glass I drink or use and that takes care of remineralization and then some!









I really really do NOT trust municipal water supplies anymore. A good filter system of any kind is a good investment, but like you say, you definitely want something that can handle larger capacity and it really doing what it's supposed to do!


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## Annikate (Aug 2, 2005)

Great thread!









Sorry if it's been mentioned before but is there any kind of gluten-free grain that will keep as well as wheat?


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

White rice will keep a LONG LONG Time....but is not as nutritious as brown. Brown will keep well vacuum packed with nitrogen packets, but it has a shorter shelf life (we're talking in the years here), due to high oil content that can go rancid eventually.

I have stored millet well, but it gets this 'smell' that I find dissagreable if tightly sealed. I usually just keep some in a freezer baggie and freeze it.

Most grains that are 'intact' and that you would need to soak/grind to get at the good stuff will keep quite well, if vacuum sealed with the oxygen removing packets (nitrogen packets). But only the 'wheat' family seems to have a built in antioxident super power to make it REALLY long term storable. (That I'm aware of, compared to the gluten free grains family).

I'll have to see if I can find my storage life lists that give some general guidelines....

It's all a balancing act for the grains to have a nice oil content that is good for you, but also enough antioxidants to keep that oil fresh, and if the outer shell is left intact when processed, as that usually would keep it longer, is it edible and do they leave the 'husk' on or strip it for consumption....once it's protective outer husk/layers are removed, it's a count down clock to it being fresh enough to still want to eat it...

One good test of grain you have stored and you are not sure about, is: will it still spout? If not, then I'd probably not consume it, if it was sproutable when you purchased it....unless things were really dire....


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## minkajane (Jun 5, 2005)

We keep several military MREs (meals ready-to-eat). Most aren't vegetarian, but in an emergency situation, all my dietary ideals go right out the window and I'm going to focus on survival. I love MREs because you don't need anything to eat them except water if you want to heat them up, and the water doesn't have to be potable. They have 3000-3500 calories each (useful in an emergency) and often have enough food for two meals. They are available online from various companies.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *minkajane*
I love MREs because you don't need anything to eat them except water if you want to heat them up, and the water doesn't have to be potable.

Can you please explain why the water does not need to be potable? Thank you.


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## minkajane (Jun 5, 2005)

The water doesn't have to be potable because it's not being drunk or coming in contact with the food. MRE heaters contain a special chemical which heats when water is added. The water wouldn't be potable after mixing with the chemical anyway, so it doesn't have to potable in the first place. Does that make sense?


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## davmon (Jun 21, 2003)

:

Thanks!!!

Mona


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Heeh, you might want to taste a few of the MREs before buying too many....I got some just for that and UGH...might save your life but BLECH!

The crackers and spread isn't too bad...but some of the 'meals' are /shiver....


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## minkajane (Jun 5, 2005)

Xenabyte, I'm in the military, so maybe I'm biased, but most of them didn't taste too bad to me. Stay far FAR away from the pork thing, though - greasy slab of what they claim is meat. *shudder* The beef stew and spaghetti are good stuff, though!


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Hehe, you a hard working woman and usually it helps make anything you eat taste better! I remember hiking all day and eating some MREs we took and they actually tasted mighty fine that day!







Was back in the 80s...so I don't remember what it was we had. I do remember eating lots of crackers and pinapple spread.









I'll try the spaghetti. I think I did have the pork this last year when I bought them myself to try again and ick! I was scared to eat any more....

They used to have a 'civilian style MRE' called 'Top Shelf' in the grocery stores, but I've not seen them in a few years. They supposedly tasted pretty good.

I think I'd make up some home made 'add water' meals (though then you DO need potable water), to have around.

I guess I need to try a few more of them /gulp/, since I was pregnant the last time I tried it! Of course, I'm pregnant again so I'll have to wait.

I like beef stew in general, so that'll be another one I'll try. I think they in a box in the basement with my dad's camping gear (I was trying to foist them off on him)...hah...time to go digging in the corner I hate going in!


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## Annikate (Aug 2, 2005)

Dh and I try our MREs every now and then just to *rotate* the stock.







I've had scrambled eggs and bacon that were pretty good, dh likes the spaghetti and I had one chocolate raspberry dessert that was







!

Haven't had any of the *meat* ones yet. Now the thoughts of it are making me feel







.


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## sweetasalemon (May 25, 2006)

Ya know.....you can store candied figs and some grains and nuts in air tight containers, some fruits can be stored for a short time in an underground cellar, and some herbs can be grown in pots. I would get a good book on Raw foods and try some of those recipies, and of course you can always store water and tea.

Wow.....I feel a brainstorm coming....time to get creative. That was food for thought if i ever heard it!

Nice post, definitely something interesting







: to think about.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

:


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## Goddess3_2005 (Oct 20, 2004)

We like http://www.maryjanesfarm.org/ organic foods for storage and Azure Standard , we also keep a years supply of all necissities and I can like crazy too.


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## bluets (Mar 15, 2005)

bump - for those who are investigating this topic... this thread is a gem.


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