# If this is not a human rights violation, I don't know what is.(pictures)*GRAPHIC*



## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

I found this image online, its an image of a young boy being circumcised with a combination of old surgical instruments, and working tools. The worst part is the image is from a stock photo news site, with no mention of the picture in a negative way.

If this is not a human rights violation, I don't know what is:
http://www.daylife.com/photo/06Xc2Sh1Dlgds

Then there is this one from the same site with a boy is crying as adults remove his clothing before he is forcibly circumcised. Again, no negative comments about the image in the description.

http://www.daylife.com/photo/01BW6DF1Ly6GL


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## Claire and Boys (Mar 27, 2007)




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## KaylaBeanie (Jan 27, 2009)

Absolutely disgusting.


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## AutumnMama (Jan 2, 2004)

Good God. Is there nothing some people won't justify?!


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

I used to work for an Iranian doctor who remembers his own circumcision. (He's an OB, BTW....and he doesn't circ babies).

He said that in his culture, they normally waited until the boys were 6 or 7. The procedure was "easier" that way, since most boys are retracted by then. He said the local barber did the circs, and used a straight razor. Then the boy's penis was wrapped in a towel and he was told to "go play."


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AutumnMama* 
Good God. Is there nothing some people won't justify?!


No doubt.







It's heartbreaking, the maternal feelings (mama bear) those pictures invoke is unreal.


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## savvybabygrace (Feb 15, 2007)

Please put a BIG warning on this post...something like "***WARNING, EXTREMELY DISTURBING***". Thank you.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savvybabygrace* 
Please put a BIG warning on this post...something like "***WARNING, EXTREMELY DISTURBING***". Thank you.

I thought I covered that when I gave a detailed description of the pictures and that it was a "human rights violation". Is that not enough of a warning? Should I add more?


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## Ivan's Mom (Jul 10, 2006)

I am absolutely positively disgusted by circumcision and anyone who performs it or condones it. Horrible and unforgivable.
Bless the sweet dear children who must endure this torture and torment.


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## NaturallyKait (Sep 22, 2006)

I gasped out loud so hard my cat came running to comfort me.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

So sick and sad and heartbreaking...unbelievable.


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## ananas (Jun 6, 2006)

Omg omg omg...

omg.


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *perspective* 
I thought I covered that when I gave a detailed description of the pictures and that it was a "human rights violation". Is that not enough of a warning? Should I add more?

Yes, really, you should make it very, very clear above the link something like *WARNING: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC*

From the description I somehow took

Quote:

image of a young boy being circumcised with a combination of old surgical instruments, and working tools
as: image of a young boy _about to be_ circumcised with a combination of old surgical instruments, and working tools










Horrible and shameful that these photos don't elicit the response they should throughout the world.


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## zak (Mar 6, 2005)

Oh I think I might pass out.












































How on EARTH could someone participate in this?!?!

... going to snuggle my guys right now...


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Honestly....it's a forum about circumcision. I would assume that any links provided that contain pictures would be graphic and/or possibly disturbing.


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## mama_b (Dec 14, 2004)

Oh no.







I'm not even going to look.


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## Tinijocaro (Jan 4, 2003)

The fact that she said she posted links to pictures of a circumcision pretty much covers it. We all know circumcision is disturbing. She was very clear, not sure what you all expected when you clicked on those links?


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## ursusarctos (Dec 16, 2008)

Oh god, I couldn't even look. My heart breaks for the poor little boy(s) who go through this... And we wonder why men have so many emotional issues.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

So by waiting until they were older and it was retracted...does this affect the pain level?


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## jeliphish (Jul 18, 2007)

poor babies...


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tinijocaro* 
The fact that she said she posted links to pictures of a circumcision pretty much covers it. We all know circumcision is disturbing. She was very clear, not sure what you all expected when you clicked on those links?

Thank you. Although I will correct you on one point. I am a guy, not a girl. (A younger circumcised guy if your interesting in details)

ursusarctos- I think of it the other way around. Instead of circumcision being the cause of emotional issues for men, I think circumcision is just another sign of the detached way males are often treated in society. (Like, his body parts have less value and damage to his body is "manly")


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## Haselnuss (Sep 20, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *perspective* 
ursusarctos- I think of it the other way around. Instead of circumcision being the cause of emotional issues for men, I think circumcision is just another sign of the detached way males are often treated in society. (Like, his body parts have less value and damage to his body is "manly")

Well, it's a cycle isn't it - circumcision sends that message across loud and clear to the subconscious, I imagine.

That poor child...


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## ursusarctos (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *perspective* 

ursusarctos- I think of it the other way around. Instead of circumcision being the cause of emotional issues for men, I think circumcision is just another sign of the detached way males are often treated in society. (Like, his body parts have less value and damage to his body is "manly")

You are absolutely right. I actually meant it as just one of the things that socialize males to numb themselves to everything but aggression and anger - "manliness". This kind of thing is a symptom of underlying, complex, deep-set cultural attitudes/assumptions, a symptom that at the same time helps to perpetuate those attitudes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Haselnuss* 
Well, it's a cycle isn't it - circumcision sends that message across loud and clear to the subconscious, I imagine.

That poor child...









Yes.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 
So by waiting until they were older and it was retracted...does this affect the pain level?

Well, I think it would. It would be just one cut around to remove the skin. Since the foreskin is already separated, you wouldn't have to peel it from the glans first, so the glans wouldn't be harmed during the actual procedure like it is in an infant.

Either way, it's still awful. But I do think that waiting until retraction is complete is *slightly* more humane.


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## MommytoB (Jan 18, 2006)

it just shows even when a child no matter what age is can say no but no one listens here they are taking away the right of their ways of speech and wants because it's humilating to them to be 'stripped and hurt like that when they are more aware of their body it's like why can't those people see that as human rights being destroyed because the kids can say No, they don't want it but forced to get it - Double wrong !


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I added Graphic Disclaimer to the OP due to member request. This is not limited to The CAC forum; we ask that all members add graphic disclaimers to potentially upsetting content/links.


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## robertandenith (Apr 1, 2008)

How about this one









FGM photo wins photographer an award

http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/content...5bf4354a?imw=Y


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## futurmama8 (Aug 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *robertandenith* 
How about this one









FGM photo wins photographer an award

http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/content...5bf4354a?imw=Y
















ukeuke These pictures are appaling seriously I just want to take these all babies with me and protect them


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## kinrice01 (Jul 9, 2007)

I haven't posted on this forum in a long time. I found my way back and came across this thread. I wish more people could see these images and perhaps know/understand/oppose these mutilations (both FGM AND our country's male-circs).

I googled that photographer's name to see the article, and it is so heart wrenching. It is so sad how they decieve the little girls...
This is hard to view the pics and made me cry, but awareness needs to be risen about this practice.
The link to the whole photo-essay is at the bottom of this blog...
http://thetravelphotographer.blogspo...kurdistan.html

So so so sad...

Kindra
not sure if my siggy will still show up! lol


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Hi, everyone. I have removed posts that were personally directed. Please remember that the User Agreement requires that we:

Quote:

Do not start a thread to discuss member behavior or statements of members made in other threads or to criticize another discussion on the boards. *Do not post to a thread to take direct issue with a member. If you feel a member has posted or behaved inappropriately in a discussion, communicate directly with the member, moderator or administrator privately and refrain from potentially defaming discussion in a thread.* Please see the MDC User Agreement.
While this is the Case Against Circumcision forum and one can assume that links would be inherently graphic and disturbing, it's helpful to post a "graphic" warning so that members can better make the determination if the links are work-friendly and/or children nearby-friendly. Thanks so much for everyone's cooperation and understanding. Please PM me with any further questions.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kinrice01* 
I haven't posted on this forum in a long time. I found my way back and came across this thread. I wish more people could see these images and perhaps know/understand/oppose these mutilations (both FGM AND our country's male-circs).

It really is horrible. Many people look at circumcision as this "simple snip", and thats how this can continue, many do not realize that this is a real surgery on an incredibly sensitive and delicate part of the body.

Often we say FGM is so bad, not only because of what is done, but how it is carried out. But there is no outcry for the way male circ is carried out internationally. The boy in the first picture above is having surgery performed on him with broken working tools, in a not only medically unsanitary, but down right filthy room.

Yet because circ is just a "snip" in some minds, people will look over that picture with their morning coffee, and will not see any problem. This lack of concern, lack of awareness does not only lead to the torture of millions of children, whose cries go unheard, this also will lead to deaths of many children. A problem unrecognized by most international human rights groups.

Thats why its so important for us to look at these images, because someone MUST see, in no abstract terms, what is going on.


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## momo7 (Apr 10, 2005)

I'm not even going to look.....the reactions from the rest of you are enough........just the thought of what some little boys have to endure from their "well-meaning" parents who just want them to "look normal" makes me sick.....If I hear it one more time "Well they are so little they won't even remember...or I had it done and I'm ok"...... it all just makes me want to strap these people down and do to them....while they are awake, cohearant and able to understand what's going on.







UGH!


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momo7* 
I'm not even going to look.....the reactions from the rest of you are enough........just the thought of what some little boys have to endure from their "well-meaning" parents who just want them to "look normal" makes me sick.....If I hear it one more time "Well they are so little they won't even remember...or I had it done and I'm ok"...... it all just makes me want to strap these people down and do to them....while they are awake, cohearant and able to understand what's going on.







UGH!

Whats weird is that in some countries they do it when kids are older. The excuse there is people say they know its painful, but they got through it and so can their (son/daughter) because its part of growing up and just "needs" to be done.


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## jenP (Aug 22, 2002)

Did you notice in the caption for the second picture it mentions the boy is getting a "free" circumcision?? What a prize, huh?

Jen


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jenP* 
Did you notice in the caption for the second picture it mentions the boy is getting a "free" circumcision?? What a prize, huh?

Jen

Many of the circumcisions that go on in second world, or 3rd world countries are free because most cannot afford a surgery like this. What makes me cringe when I hear about these "free circumcision days" at local clinics in these places is when I find out they are funded by American "charity" organizations.


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## fresh_veggie (Jan 27, 2009)




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## jenP (Aug 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *perspective* 
Many of the circumcisions that go on in second world, or 3rd world countries are free because most cannot afford a surgery like this. What makes me cringe when I hear about these "free circumcision days" at local clinics in these places is when I find out they are funded by American "charity" organizations.

Eeeeeeeew! How can we find out if a particular charity puts money towards this?

Jen


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## feest (May 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ananas* 
Omg omg omg...

omg.

omg. omg. omfg.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jenP* 
Eeeeeeeew! How can we find out if a particular charity puts money towards this?

Jen

I really don't know how you could find out. Does anyone else have ideas how?

(I have read some stories of an american doctor going over to another country to offer his services for a third world region for a short period of time, and one of the main things he did was provide free circumcisions)


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## aydensmama (Jun 2, 2005)

The fact that the boy in the second photo is crying and knowing that there are people he quite possibly loves and trusts that are subjecting and forcing him into this is beyond words.

He is terrified and it hasn't even begun!!!!!!


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## Freud (Jan 21, 2008)

Oh my gosh. Every single picture here is horrible. Both the male and female circumcision pictures are just heartbreaking. It's hard for me not to feel that all people who do this to their children are evil, even though I *know* that most are just misinformed and doing what they think is right.


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## Ahappymel (Nov 20, 2001)

As much as I would like to believe in the beauty (aspects) of the human heart, incidences like these remind me that there is undescribable cruelty that I cannot understand.


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## ColoradoMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ahappymel* 
As much as I would like to believe in the beauty (aspects) of the human heart, incidences like these remind me that there is undescribable cruelty that I cannot understand.

Very well said.


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## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

nm


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## ColoradoMama (Nov 22, 2001)

I've been thinking about those pictures all night. How can someone look at the picture of the little girl and say it's a human rights violation, but look at the picture of the little boy and say it's okay?


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## jimblejamble (May 18, 2007)

: Those poor little boys!!! That is so disturbing!


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## ColoradoMama (Nov 22, 2001)

I had to blog about this. If you feel up to it, please give me some support - I'm not sure who will read and respond. Something to say


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## Blu Razzberri (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *perspective* 
...http://www.daylife.com/photo/01BW6DF1Ly6GL

But hey, at least it was free, right??







Doesn't it make you crazy??


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ColoradoMama* 
I've been thinking about those pictures all night. How can someone look at the picture of the little girl and say it's a human rights violation, but look at the picture of the little boy and say it's okay?









What I dont understand is how people can write captions for those pictures so "matter-of-factly" with such horror going on in the shot.


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## GoodNamesGone (Apr 24, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *perspective* 
What I dont understand is how people can write captions for those pictures so "matter-of-factly" with such horror going on in the shot.

Because they have to. It's part of journalism. You're suppossed to present the news matter-of-factly and let the reader decide.

It's tough. I have never done a story like this, but I have felt passionately about something and had to keep my opinion to myself. Sometimes it has to be enough to just get it into the public eye.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoodNamesGone* 
Because they have to. It's part of journalism. You're suppossed to present the news matter-of-factly and let the reader decide.

It's tough. I have never done a story like this, but I have felt passionately about something and had to keep my opinion to myself. Sometimes it has to be enough to just get it into the public eye.

Yeah, but if you look at pictures of female circumcisions of little girls there is a clear bias presented in comments. Like if that crying boy was a crying girl they would probably write something like "girl cries as she is undressed as she is forcibly circumcised" (Which sounds very similar, I know) or they would include a quote from the boy, about not wanting to do it, being afraid, feeling different afterward, like they do with some female circs. There is much greater focus on the girls fear, so it still is just "reporting the scene" but its slanting it ever so slightly so that the reader is horrified as well. Thats the difference.


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## GoodNamesGone (Apr 24, 2009)

perspective - I won't argue that one report may slant while another does not. Or one might be more opinionated than the next. Not all journalists are good at the unbiased thing.

I didn't look- are both reports from the same person? That would DEFINATELY be biased then. I was just trying to point out that the matter-of-factly tone is one that a journalist is suppossed to have unless it is an "opinion piece" The journalism ethics are to present an unbiased report unless you clearly state that your report is of an opinion, or of your own opinion.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoodNamesGone* 
perspective - I won't argue that one report may slant while another does not. Or one might be more opinionated than the next. Not all journalists are good at the unbiased thing.

I didn't look- are both reports from the same person? That would DEFINATELY be biased then. I was just trying to point out that the matter-of-factly tone is one that a journalist is suppossed to have unless it is an "opinion piece" The journalism ethics are to present an unbiased report unless you clearly state that your report is of an opinion, or of your own opinion.

I am not trying to argue that main point either. My point is that the two issues are handled differently. Maybe its that FGM photos or news stories are generally presented in opinion pieces, or personal recounts, because its tried to be presented most of the time as human interest stories, framed as human rights issues that need to be corrected.

While male circumcision (especially in America) is presented in a very sanitised fashion. The tone is "this is why its good, this is why its bad, but we got no official opinion, and it does not matter" so its just "July 23-boy gets circumcised" The issue is simplified, and its complexity is often gutted out.


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## AnalogWife (Sep 8, 2007)

Glad I read the comments before I clicked the link.







Exponentially glad my DS is intact.


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## haroldpapa (Mar 26, 2009)

Something deep inside me went weak and I remembered the pain of my own circumcision though I was just an infant. I want to take him up in my arms and hold him with all my love and compassion.


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## MayBaby2007 (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Freud* 
Oh my gosh. Every single picture here is horrible. Both the male and female circumcision pictures are just heartbreaking. It's hard for me not to feel that all people who do this to their children are evil, even though I *know* that most are just misinformed and doing what they think is right.

They absolutely have to be evil. Plain evil. How else could you do that/allow that to happen to your child? Doing the best they know how?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ahappymel* 
As much as I would like to believe in the beauty (aspects) of the human heart, incidences like these remind me that there is undescribable cruelty that I cannot understand.

This too.

My God. What kind of mother/father/family member could hold their child down and let that happen? They must have blackened hearts. And to lie to the girls about a happy little party. Evil.















: for all the children that have to suffer


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## Stardust27 (Feb 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MayBaby2007* 
My God. What kind of mother/father/family member could hold their child down and let that happen? They must have blackened hearts. And to lie to the girls about a happy little party. Evil.

No, they're not evil, and they don't have blackened hearts. They're caught in the vicious circle of denial and justification by repetition. You know, if they admitted that it was too bad to do to their children, they'd have to admit that their own parents did not bother to protect them from that bad thing. So they go on telling themselves endlessly that it didn't harm them and that it has to be done for whatever reason, has to be done so absolutely that it's neither in their nor in their parents' hands to choose not to do it.

Anyway, those photos are heartbreaking, of course. Both of them.









Stardust


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## robertandenith (Apr 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ColoradoMama* 
I've been thinking about those pictures all night. How can someone look at the picture of the little girl and say it's a human rights violation, but look at the picture of the little boy and say it's okay?

















I agree...


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## mommyswenn (May 23, 2004)

Did not (could not) even look at the pictures...


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## Treece (Apr 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ColoradoMama* 
I had to blog about this. If you feel up to it, please give me some support - I'm not sure who will read and respond. Something to say

I wanted to say that I added this blog page to StumbleUpon.









Good discussion, I am looking for pics of a younger girl for my myspace page. I really wanna do a blog similar to ColoradoMama's,


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *haroldpapa* 
Something deep inside me went weak and I remembered the pain of my own circumcision though I was just an infant. I want to take him up in my arms and hold him with all my love and compassion.

When were you circumcised and why did you do it?


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## zonapellucida (Jul 16, 2004)

OMG how sickening


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *perspective* 
When were you circumcised and why did you do it?

He said he was an infant.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

When I look at the image of the boy being physically held down, hands (probably family members) pinning each of his limbs, with his head arched back in a scream...it really just echoes the photos of newborns helplessly strapped to circumstraints. It's the same, regardless of the child's age or gender or place of birth.

How culture and tradition-blinded can people-parents especially-be to participate in such violation?

Who are people kidding when they try to justify it by saying, "He won't remember it?"

There is energy in every person, every thing, and every act. I'm actually more concerned about memories and trauma future adults can't identify or "name" than I am about clear memories they can more easily acknowledge and work through.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pdx.mothernurture* 
He said he was an infant.

Yeah, I guess I thought I misunderstood him.

Haroldpapa- I don't mean to be offensive or rude (I obviously never would with a subject so close to me as this). I am circumcised as well, and with that I ask you, how is it that you can remember the pain of your circumcision? Some people have good memories, but all the way to infancy is seemingly superhuman.

And I dont say any of this to you in a mean way, because it does not matter what we remember or not. What happened to us was morally wrong, it went against our human rights. We never need to provide justification for it.


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