# What do you do if a 5 year old routinely refuses to negotiate and just throws a tantrum instead



## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

I am really struggling with my 5 1/2 year old at the moment. In a nutshell she absolutely refuses to negotiate, she just throws a temper tantrum. She will be up for an hour and a half at night screaming because she wants something she can't have (like audio books-we live in a small terraced house and we can't make noise at this time of night, and I'm not happy for her to use ear phones).

She is the middle child of three, all close in age, and so has been exposed to negotiating since birth really, using mainly the faber and maslisch (sp?) techniques. She has always been quite poor at them but at the moment is just not even trying.

She just throws a tantrum if she isn't getting her own way. And usually this is completely unnecessary. We are a family who will listen and negotiate, but she is refusing to give an inch. With three children, this is not sustainable. I would never say this of a younger child, but really it feels actually quite manipulative. At present we are ending up using time outs with her, simply because I cannot have a 5 1/2 year old (big lungs) in the middle of the (small) house screaming at the drop of a hat. Its unpleasant for all of us, and we've tried everything else. These are really a "least worst" option.

She is a clever child in all the usual academic tick box ways. Although we do extremely minimal work with her (basically what she picks up from her homeschooled big brother, or from conversations) she has learnt to read and do maths and so forth. There are no problems with getting her to do schoolwork, as far as I can work out-she loves it.

I am this morning absolutely furious with her, as she was up for several hours in the middle of the night screaming about not getting her own way. Yet the two previous nights, when she was given a consequence for not screaming (basically that I would not be able to drive her to an activity that she liked if I was woken up in the night) she did not wake anyone up. It wasn't presented as a Consequence, it was and is a fact, I won't drive to non-essential places when I'm that tired.

I would say at present that my 3 year old is substantially better at negotiation than she is-and tbh my 3 year old is hardly brilliant at it.

I really would welcome all thoughts here.


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## mamanicki (May 31, 2002)

This may be an unpopular opinion but I'm of the belief that each child requires customized discipline strategies that best fit their own unique personalities and temperaments. Not all children will be good at negotiating. Trying to use one parenting method for all kids is most likely not going to work. Think about age of weaning, even co-sleeping.

In the same vein, perhaps she's been trying for years to show you that negotiating is a parenting tactic that doesn't work well for her? I have a child who feels very out of control and frantic if given a lot of negotiating power. The more I tried, the more difficult he became. That isn't to say that I keep him on a short leash and control his every move. But I just know that when it comes to almost all big decisions and many smaller ones, he still wants me to take the lead. I have faith that as he grows older he will slowly take more and more of the lead himself but we will never have a more typically described negotiating relationship and that's ok. This is what he feels comfortable with and the best discipline strategy is the one that works best for each individual child.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamanicki*
> 
> This may be an unpopular opinion but I'm of the belief that each child requires customized discipline strategies that best fit their own unique personalities and temperaments. Not all children will be good at negotiating. Trying to use one parenting method for all kids is most likely not going to work. Think about age of weaning, even co-sleeping.


I agree with this. Also many 5 year old's seem to go through some emotional stuff. My 5.5 year old DD was having some issues with over reacting and getting angry/upset easily when she first turned 5. I taught her some techniques for calming herself, mainly using slow breathing and visualization. Maybe if trying to negotiate with your DD makes things worse, explaining and sympathizing might work better. Maybe she feels things are unfair because her siblings have better negotiating skills and it seems they get at least part of their way and she doesn't. Some issues at our house are not negotiable. Being loud in the middle of the night for one. Being really loud or mean when angry is another. I basically explain why it's not a good idea and offer sympathy. I would suggest that maybe your DD just doesn't feel heard and that's where the tantrums are coming from, but then again she's 5 and several 5 year olds I know have gotten more intense and louder. It's probably a phase and will go away like the other ones have. My own DD has calmed down in the last couple of months.


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## stik (Dec 3, 2003)

My 5yo threw a lot of tantrums too, and while her temper has improved dramatically over the past 4 years, she continues to be a person who really doesn't enjoy too much negotiation.

We worked hard to limit the drama that went with the tantrums. We stepped back, limited our responses, and waited. BUT, she was an only child at the time, and not a midnight screamer. We also noticed a difference when we eliminated nitrates from her diet. We think they may have been causing headaches that made her really cranky. The difference was dramatic - it might be worth a shot?

I loved Faber and Mazlish before I had kids. With my actual children serving as test subjects, however, I can see that sometimes their techniques feed the difficult emotion and prolong conflict and angst. I'm opposed to conflict and angst, and I think that a lot of kids need guidance about how to temper their emotional reaction to match the magnitude of the situation.

I think you were on the right track with the consequence for late night screaming, which is a thing for which I simply have no tolerance in 5yos. (But you can't ignore it - your dd has really hit on something there.) It sounds like time outs are working for her, and are a reasonable and proportionate response to screaming. Do you think she might respond well to a token economy with not waking others as the target behavior?

It also sounds like part of the problem is that your dd doesn't sleep at night. If she is frequently up in the middle of the night despite a well-established bedtime routine, or if you can't establish a bedtime routine for her no matter what you do, I would encourage you to discuss this issue with your pediatrician. Normally, 5yos sleep at night. If they are frequently up screaming, there is a problem and it could be medically treatable. It could be something simple like lactose intolerance causing gas pain, or tonsils interfering with her night breathing and causing waking. Do you think there's any possibility she's actually having night terrors? My dds have each had a couple, and they can look a lot like they're awake, but their rational selves are simply not present.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

One more for a parent who made it past 5 alive but barely...DS was a m,ajor PITA for about six months there. But then he felt the same way about me.

I'm going to ask you a question though...it sounds, from your OP, that YOU are not particularly good at negotiation either...I mean...you can't make the sort of noise an audio book would make at night...what are you the Franks hiding from the Nazis? I mean...it's an audio book, not a punk band. What is the dilly-oh? I need more than a terraced house as a reason for living in silence after 8pm...really. Maybe being more creative in solutions might help you both...and some head phones are not that bad for their ears, honestly.

Just now is the time when kids have a mental growth spurt. They are establishing new parameters of their independence, and as usual this coincides with a deep fear that they are losing the safety of toddlerhood, so they are also at time quite clingy and reverting in their behavior so one, minute they are all "I can do it myself!!!!" and the next they are all "Will you help me get dressed, mommy, I can't do it!"

It's exhausting, but it doesn't last too long. Lots of modelling and patience...plenty of patience. They do not mean to be obnoxious, they just have to be.

Hugs and understanding will get you through and a HUGE sense of humor. I think the best thing you can do is try to help her find ways to meet her needs, even if you don't feel her needs are real, they are for her (probably most important, autonomy), and help her find solutions, rather than options. It helped with my DS. (he's not big on negotiations either...he's a problem solver.)


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## stik (Dec 3, 2003)

I have to respectfully disagree with hakeber. I feel strongly that 5yos don't get to decide what's OK in the middle of the night, which is when Fillyjonk says her dd's acting out is taking place.

An audio book with headphones might not be a big deal as a compromise at 7 pm. The issue is different at 11, and handling of the issue at 7 should probably be shaped by an understanding of how the child is likely to respond when mom and dad announce that it's time to turn the audio book off at 8. Further, the concern here is not about the child having what she wants or not, it's about the child's behavior keeping the rest of the family awake for half the night. It also wouldn't hurt for the child to learn a more pro-social approach to dealing with denial and disappointment.

I think a gentle parent has to consider the needs of the entire family. The 5yo tantrum thrower is one of 5 people in the household who all need a good night's sleep. The family needs to find a way to make that available to everyone.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

My DD went through a stage of waking at weird hours, and staying up later than usual. I would find her bedroom light on when I'd go to the bathroom at 3am and she'd be asleep with a book on her chest. She never actually bothered me with any of it, just seemed to keep to herself (she is almost 9 now), but it did signal to me that some intervention was required, for her, not any of us.

I should mention that during her wakeful period, which was when she was about 5 or 6, she had other stresses in her life. I do the "releasing emotions" tactic, but in this case it was more of a load... she had to do more raging and crying than usual but was holding it in too tightly, not feeling safe enough to release, so the stress affected her sleeping and behaviour instead. Me, I prefer my kids to rage or cry in my arms, just get it out all at once instead of a slow painful drip of restless nights and obnoxious behaviour. I had to tease out her emotions to get her to cry about them and in some way release them. This seemed to knock the whole thing on the head. Each stage that comes, if it brings behaviour that affects us or her in some detrimental way, it usually means our connection is not strong, and that she needs to release emotions and heal some trauma or fear. So first port of call is strengthening the connection - often with laughter and play, that works best. Sometimes a session of laughter and play will alone bring on a torrent of tears, seemingly out of nowhere... but really it was the connection that allowed her to feel safe enough to fall apart.

It is easier with my 3yo son, who cries or rages without inhibition but my daughter has, like most kids, learned to suppress emotions to a degree so it becomes difficult to get them out. They can come out as "behaviour issues" instead. Perhaps some crying/raging in arms or at least in your validating, empathetic presence will help move this stage along. Relaxed, contented, stress-free kids don't tend to have sleeping issues, nor do they need to rage. These are signs something is in need of releasing. At that age, it must be with support not alone, or it isn't healing, it just adds more stress/trauma.

I would not make the discussions about the night time or tantrums, those are just symptoms - it is where the stress is showing in her life - and instead make her feel safe to express with you, be open and inviting for her to release whatever is in her, in safety that no matter how it comes out, you will accept and love her. At least then you have some control over when and where she explodes. Sometimes kids create a reason to rage or cry, and if she seems to be "setting the stage" for a tantrum or fight with you, perhaps teasing out the real reason behind all this stress will see the end of it. Some tears and rage will be inevitable for the completion of it, but knowing what it is will make it not only easier to take, but you'll happily welcome it as the needed release that it is. Until her inner feelings are seen and validated, she will keep pushing them on you... unaware that's what she is doing. We do it as adults just the same, only it looks slightly different (my DH says "can I get a hell yeah").

She sounds like my daughter was - a shaken soda can... it's time to pop the lid!


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stik*
> 
> I have to respectfully disagree with hakeber. I feel strongly that 5yos don't get to decide what's OK in the middle of the night, which is when Fillyjonk says her dd's acting out is taking place.
> 
> ...


Well I never said that a 5yo gets to decide what is okay in the middle of the night....I read that it was happening at night (not time specific actually) and the subsequent tantrums over it were errupting in the middle of the night (ie early morning). That's what I read. I think as a neighbor, I would rather hear an audio book at 8pm than a crying screaming tantrum at 3am. Maybe that's just me.

I totally agree that the needs of the whole family have to be met, but it seems to me that if an audio book would be disruptive due to the acoustics of the house, surely a 5 yo in a time out raging and screaming would be even more so...I guess I fail to see how the current solution is meeting the family's needs, ya know?

Fillyjonk, FWIW, this age with my son was by far more challenging than anything I have faced so far, way worse than the so called terrible twos. I was ready to lock him in his room until he turned 6 or 26 if that what it took. I was at my wits end. It's an awful stage. The only thing that got me through it was a LOT of hugs and and LOTS and LOTS of help from CNVC.org and the Non-violent communication methods I was practicing with my students and sadly leaving in my classroom. When I started taking it home I found it was the perfect age to begin these techniques with him. It really helped to give him words to the feelings he had and attach them to needs that we could work together to fulfill. I suppose at heart every human is self-interested and manipulative, and our children are certainly no exception, but this is because they have needs that need meeting, and a lot of sad bad mad feelings because those needs are not being met. The more we work to help them meet their needs the less it feels like they are manipulating us and the more we feel like super parents for helping them find the skills to get their needs met.

When DS is raging (and he still has his days LOL) I sometimes need to send him to his room for a little while alone so that I can get myself centered and ready to meet his needs, ( because often I am exhausted and in no mood to be dealing with somelese's mood because MY needs are not being met) maybe I have a cool glass of water or a small snack to raise my blood sugar and I usually offer to make him one (I found through this period with him that 75% of the tantrums were traced back to sudden drops in blood sugar or protein levels and could be solved with a glass of milk or a hard boiled egg, weird, right?) and then I go to him and we talk and rages some more and I hold him and then we try to put words to the feelings...Tired, hungry, disappointed, afraid, lonely, frustrated, etc and then we think about why those feelings are happening and brain storm solutions together. It's hard and tiring and plain exhausting, but your daughter FINALLY is at an age where these sort of conversations can actually be super productive and stay with her as lasting memories of how to solve problems on her own. Now, I find more and more DS is able to solve problems and sort out negative feelings on his own and it is SO awesome to witness. He still needs help, as we all do, from time to time, but he is so much more independent now. It seriously blows my mind and I have to say it is a big PTHBPTHBPTHBPTHB in the face to all my friends and co-workers who used to laugh in my face and say "You can't rationaize with a child, he's just doing it for attention, he's just manipulating you to get his own way. He doesn't know what's good for him!" etc etc etc. It works, and a lot better, IMNSHO, than repression tactics llike logical consequences for not repressing feelings. I get it. I do it too sometimes. But then we spend the day seeking catharsis and getting to the bottom of the whole mess.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Calm*
> 
> My DD went through a stage of waking at weird hours, and staying up later than usual. I would find her bedroom light on when I'd go to the bathroom at 3am and she'd be asleep with a book on her chest. She never actually bothered me with any of it, just seemed to keep to herself (she is almost 9 now), but it did signal to me that some intervention was required, for her, not any of us.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Calm. Good points.


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## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

thanks for all replies

My original post wasn't that clear (I was tired ;-) ). Actually the word I wanted more than negotiation was discussion. What she does when she is upset is to shut out the whole world, she will literally curl in a ball and put her hands over her ears and scream. She has done this since she was born. What I am after from her more than negotiation is discussion, and she just refuses to do it. I am aware that this pushes my buttons a bit-my family also did not negotiate or discuss-but I also don't see how we can ever get out of this if she won't talk to me, either in the night or the next morning.

A big part of the problem is that she doesn't really rage even, she just cries and says "I want x " a lot. If I validate her feelings she screams louder, and this is at 3 in the morning.

Another thing that wasn't clear is that I don't negotiate with her about the screaming. That is non-negotiable-we don't make noise in the middle of the night. What is harder to work out is HOW I stop her from doing this.

I do actually wonder if its hunger. I'm going to try giving her some oatcakes and water to take to bed tonight to see if that helps.

re stress, tbh that has been my assumption, that there must be some hidden stress in her life...but I've spoken to her, I've made it safe for her to be angry, and all the rest, and honestly, I don't think there IS any underlying stress. I know we all experience stuff differently, but she is with me or dp very nearly 24/7 and I just can't think of what could be stressing her. She has quiet, simple,home-based life, mostly. I've also spoken to her about it, both directly and more obliquely, and I just can't find anything that's upsetting her. I don't think she IS upset, except in the middle of the night. It's not night terrors either as far as I can work out.

re the audio book, I should probably clarify. She wants this at 3 am, not at 8pm (she has audio books til around 9pm if she wants them). We do live in a house with very poor insulation between the walls and there isn't anything we can do about this.As adults we don't listen to the radio, or tv without subtitles past around 9, or play instruments or whatever-its a family rule, and one we need to have for the sake of our neighbours. I am not willing to let her have headphones as I really don't trust her to keep the volume on them down (I do generally trust my kids and I'd trust my other two with this but she would try to turn it up if she thought I was asleep and it WILL damage her hearing to do this)

I feel very strongly about helping kids learn to live as part of a family and so this is really a hard one for me, as this seems to be profoundly anti-social behaviour. Also, we do have ground rules underpinning the negotiation/discussion, its not a free for all.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

ahhhh....ya know what? I used to do that as a kid, too (sometimes I still do if really really upset). My mom tried spanking it out of me but needless to say that didn't work very well. She tells me that she finally started to not discuss things when I was upset. She would just take me to my room and hold me until I was calm and the NEXT DAY she would engage me in something really fun like baking cookies or making mudpies and then she would discuss it in very hypothetical terms.

She also used to leave a snack and toys out for me in the middle of the night because I had a need to play in the middle fo the night and leaving me alone in the dark to be scared was not working. She put a little step stool next to the light switch and a snack and a glass of juice on a little chair and I would wake up every night between probably 3am and 4am and have a little discussion with my dolls and maybe do some coloring and then when I was done I'd crawl back into bed and go back to sleep. She swears I did this almost every night from the age of 2 to about 5.

Maybe that was weird now that I think about it, but it was a nice way for me to have my needs met without disrupting the needs of the family. Does your DD share a room?

Another thought...if when she is upset she curls into a ball and will not talk and having people talk at her is over stimulation that she physically tries to block out with her hands, perhaps her stress is a need to be alone in her own space. If she is with you 24/7...she may need some outside stimulation and perhaps even a little alone time. Introverts (like myself meaning we get energized by being alone rather than extroverts who are engerized by being around people -- this has little to do with being outgoing or shy. I am very outgoing, but I am introverted by nature) get sapped by being around people and when we are upset or needing something it is like bamboo shoots under your nails to have someone try to talk to you or discuss your feelings. You just want to be left the hell alone to figure out how you feel and get up the strength to figure out your needs. So...just a thought. She may be really overwhelmed by that much togetherness. What you see as Anti-social may be her ways to trying to communicate her frustration of being born an introvert in a family full of extroverts.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

It sounds like she can't think when she's upset. Is she waking up during the night and wanting to listen to audio books? Maybe she finds it scary being the only one up so she wants the noise of an audiobook. If she's afraid of being awake in the quiet by herself that could explain the screaming. Also needing food is a probable idea. We're quiet after someone is asleep too. I often wake stuff with close caption and our houses acoustics are normal. Since she started sleeping alone, our DD sleeps about 10 hours every night without waking unless she's ill. So we haven't dealt with any waking issues since co-sleeping stopped about a year and a half ago. So I'm just guessing.


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## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

the thing is we're quite flexible on cosleeping. If she wants to come through to us AND be quiet, that's totally fine. She could still have a bed in our room if she wanted. This is new-past two weeks-at night, though she's always been like this. Its not a policy decision that she has her own room per se, its because she wants to go away frequently to stay with grandparents etc and we found that if she was in the habit of sleeping in her own room then she struggled a lot when she was away (to the point when she basically could not go away)

I'd also say that we're not an especially extrovert family. I'm quite extroverted, and so is she, but really, just in terms of whether recharging happens with others or alone, her sister, father and brother are not so much extroverts. In any case, although she is with me most of the time, we are very often-like at least half, sometimes all of most days-with other people, other families, either at our house or theirs or a planned group setting or whatever. But these are families who are part of our community and who we mainly know very well and its relaxing for us all to be with them. She does go to kindergarten a few mornings a week and that is her call-she could go less, or more, and we'd work either out for her.

I do think that's an interesting idea that she might need the noise of an audiobook. I wonder if she just misses talking at this time of night. Like I say she can come through to us but of course we are quiet. What she actually seems sometimes to be doing is provoking us into talking-to each other, to her, to her siblings (who she has woken up-they all have to share a room, no way round that). But what do we do?


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I find it interesting on the one hand you've said you think she might be trying to pull people into talking to her, and on the other saying you can't get her into a discussion. So as a PP suggested, it is possibly that she can't discuss while emotional. Or is it she won't discuss this issue at any time? When DD is in the middle of an issue, I can't discuss it with her until she is done releasing, then she becomes accessible.

Quote:


> A big part of the problem is that she doesn't really rage even, she just cries and says "I want x " a lot. If I validate her feelings she screams louder, and this is at 3 in the morning.


This is exactly what we're looking for. As soon as you validate someone, the key to knowing if you've hit the right chord is if the releasing gets more intense. Including adults; for instance when I validate a friend, if I strike the right chord, make them feel like I really understand them, that's when they'll start to cry. Not great at 3am, for sure, but the rest of it is what we look for in healing phases.

Is she getting this kind of one on one with you during the day? Just looking for other sources for the choice of time of day. Sour cherries are a rich source of melatonin. Parents in the know feed their kids sour cherries before bed.









I like this advice from Naomi Aldort: The Child is Right

If you're interested in the headphones if you could limit the volume, that is a possibility.

Instructions on how to limit the volume on an ipod

Kid's earphone store with volume limiters if you are in the US, you could google for the same in your area.

earbud volume limiter


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Montmorency are the cherries with the most melatonin. Here is an article.

How tart cherry juice helps children sleep.

Dried tart cherries are an easy way to get them into children. It induces a longer and deeper sleep. There is lots of info if you google it. It's worth a try, because having her actually sleep the night is better than the headphones.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fillyjonk*
> 
> thanks for all replies
> 
> My original post wasn't that clear (I was tired ;-) ). Actually the word I wanted more than negotiation was discussion. What she does when she is upset is to shut out the whole world, she will literally curl in a ball and put her hands over her ears and scream. She has done this since she was born. What I am after from her more than negotiation is discussion, and she just refuses to do it. I am aware that this pushes my buttons a bit-my family also did not negotiate or discuss-but I also don't see how we can ever get out of this if she won't talk to me, either in the night or the next morning.


It sounds to me very much like she can't process information when she's upset. I'm very much like that and so I empathize. If you see it as an inability rather than an unwillingness, it might help you remain calmer about it. I'll also chime in to say 5 was really hard for us too. Early 6 wasn't much better. 6 1/2 has finally seen an improvement. But there was lots of drama and tears at 5. Part of it is dd's personality -- when she's happy, she's very very happy. She bubbles over with enthusiasm. When she's sad, she's very very sad. I came to the realization several weeks ago that I was enjoying her joyful drama, but the sad drama was driving me batty. But I can't have one without the other. We're working on moderating responses, but we've got years to go, I suspect.

Another gentle question: What's there to discuss? She wants an audiobook, you've said that it's too much noise. So, where does she go from there? She may be refusing to discuss things because she thinks that the lines are drawn.

What about other mediums? Could you draw pictures together? Act out scenarios with stuffed animals? My dd finds this very powerful -- she gets to play out the issues in a 'safe space'. She gets to play the role of the person with power, or the role of the person without power, but it's a low stress situation.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fillyjonk*
> 
> I do think that's an interesting idea that she might need the noise of an audiobook. I wonder if she just misses talking at this time of night. Like I say she can come through to us but of course we are quiet. What she actually seems sometimes to be doing is provoking us into talking-to each other, to her, to her siblings (who she has woken up-they all have to share a room, no way round that). But what do we do?


I was going to suggest that. What about gentle music at night?

Or headphones. They make headphones especially for kids that protect their hearing. Examples: Sony and Califones. We've got the Sony ones for dd (age 6) because sometimes she likes to listen to things, and her brother is hypersensitive to sound (as am I). Dd and dh have a much higher need for noise. Dd falls asleep to music, and will often turn on the radio softly when she comes into our room at night. I'm OK with that. She knows which button is tuned to the 2 stations I think are OK (soft rock or classical). I fall asleep to the BBC World Service, but she doesn't like that because she actually listens to the content and finds it too scary. So, she knows how to turn it on, push the preset button and go back to sleep.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fillyjonk*
> 
> the thing is we're quite flexible on cosleeping. If she wants to come through to us AND be quiet, that's totally fine. She could still have a bed in our room if she wanted. This *is new-past two weeks-at night, though she's always been like this.* Its not a policy decision that *she has her own room* per se, *its because she wants to go away frequently to stay with grandparents etc and we found that if she was in the habit of sleeping in her own room then she struggled a lot when she was away (to the point when she basically could not go away) *
> 
> ...


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

We also have the headphones where you can limit the volume - they work great and weren't particularly expensive. Ours are for kids specifically - over the head old-style headphones with a volume thing on the cord (which I set when we bought it).

Not that the headphones solve all your problems, but they would be an option. I think ours were $15.

Tjej


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Have you tried talking to her about the problem when she is calm and asking her what she thinks should happen. My dd hated negotiating and she also went through a nasty tantrum phase. What helped was to talk to her about the problem and why it was a problem then let her help me come up with a consequence for when it happens again (you could probably also tell her the consequence if she is coming up with outlandish ones that you aren't comfortable with). After that when she was at the beginning of a fit I would ask her if she was choosing to stop or to have the consequence (I can't remember the one she chose). It took only a couple times of this and following through for her to see that she could use self control and that things did go better.

I found that for my dd there are times when negotiating works well and times it doesn't. Bedtime, before meals, and when she is really set on one way are all times when she needed a set routine without negotiating. She also needed to be introduced to negotiating with very little steps and I had to say "let's find a compromise" at the first sign of the tantrum then make sure I compromised in a way that was very favorable to her. She saw me telling her to negotiate as me telling her she wasn't going to get her way and she seemed to feel like she never got her way so I really had to let her see that she was getting her way before she became willing to try it regularly. Now she is 8 and a negotiating pro but our negotiations are not skewed in her favor. She can take hearing no without complaint or a meltdown and move on to other things. A few years really made a huge difference in terms of tantrums and her willingness to negotiate.

The book on tape may be your dd's way of escaping from the chaos that comes with having siblings. If you can find a way to honor that need by using headphones that may help decrease some of the tantrums because you will be giving her an outlet she needs to unwind.


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## MrsH (Sep 5, 2009)

Is it possible that your DD is a Highly Sensitive Person, as explained by Elaine Aron? "A highly sensitive child is one of the fifteen to twenty percent of children born with a nervous system that is highly aware and quick to react to everything. This makes them quick to grasp subtle changes, prefer to reflect deeply before acting, and generally behave conscientiously. They are also easily overwhelmed by high levels of stimulation, sudden changes, and the emotional distress of others."

There's a questionnaire on her website, and if it turns out that she does seem to match that personality trait it's well worth getting the copy of the book. It really helps to understand and value this trait, and would also allow you to find some ways to respond to your DD with more understanding. Just wanted to throw that possibility out there. It sounds like a very frustrating situation!


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## PhillyMama (Nov 3, 2007)

Fillyjonk, I wonder if a noise machine would help your daughter with nighttime quiet?

My daughter is very sensitive to silence when it's dark, so we bought her a small noise machine that is next to her bed. It has selections for different noises - ocean, white noise, heartbeat, rain, etc. DD says she doesn't feel alone in her room when she wakes in the middle of the night (she likes the heartbeat).

We bought it at Bed Bath & Beyond for $20.

Thank you, MrsH, for the link to Aron's website. I've suspected that my DD is highly sensitive and will pick up the book - I think it will help my (non-sensitive) husband understand DD's perspective a it more.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MrsH*
> 
> Is it possible that your DD is a Highly Sensitive Person, as explained by Elaine Aron? "A highly sensitive child is one of the fifteen to twenty percent of children born with a nervous system that is highly aware and quick to react to everything. This makes them quick to grasp subtle changes, prefer to reflect deeply before acting, and generally behave conscientiously. They are also easily overwhelmed by high levels of stimulation, sudden changes, and the emotional distress of others."
> 
> There's a questionnaire on her website, and if it turns out that she does seem to match that personality trait it's well worth getting the copy of the book. It really helps to understand and value this trait, and would also allow you to find some ways to respond to your DD with more understanding. Just wanted to throw that possibility out there. It sounds like a very frustrating situation!


I started a thread here in 2004 called Mothering the Highly Sensitive Child. It was MASSIVE, and went for years. I was about to link it as it had been so helpful for so many, but I can't find it. In fact, what I did find were about five threads asking where that thread went to. For my own interests I'll ask a mod how to search for threads older than one year but if I find it I'll come back and link it.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

I'm not sure if you are dealing with more sensory issues than I was but DD started throwing tantrums when she was three, and by 5 and a half they had just gotten worse. She would just scream and scream if she didn't get her way. It was awful. The book, The Explosive Child really helped me. I highly recommend it if you feel like you are dealing with power struggles, and you don't feel that your DD is learning how to deal with her feelings constructively, talking about it makes it worse, time outs make it worse, etc..

One really simple thing--I can usually see her winding up for the tantrum. A lot of it is timing. Now, instead of getting into it and trying to reason with her, I will often just say gently "Hey, you seem really upset. What's going on?" And then open my arms and give her a hug. 90% of the time that takes care of it. And really--this is a kid who spent 2+ years screaming bloody murder at me. It's a tremendous turnaround here, so I can't help but recommend the book. It helped us all so much.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *madskye*
> 
> One really simple thing--I can usually see her winding up for the tantrum. A lot of it is timing. Now, instead of getting into it and trying to reason with her, I will often just say gently "Hey, you seem really upset. What's going on?" And then open my arms and give her a hug. 90% of the time that takes care of it.


Simple logic really. Although I seem to be yelling down an empty hall when I say this stuff, love cures all. Kids are people too. "How would I like to be treated if I was doing this?" They need support through their emotions. When we think these things through with compassion as our goal, it all becomes very simple. If we can truly put ourselves in another's shoes, the solutions become more nurturing and less about short term goals.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Calm, yes to what you said. For me, it was just a shift between trying to help her "work through" her feelings--by talking or compromising first, and shifting to first taking care of her emotional needs (the hug) and then, when the situation is diffused, coming up with a compromise. Once DD got into the heat of it, she couldn't let go and reason. But now, it's like we took a pause and she's able to come at things much differently. Maybe the book, maybe a little maturity leap on her part--I'll never know! But I am glad that the tantrums are over.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Calm*
> 
> Simple logic really. Although I seem to be yelling down an empty hall when I say this stuff, love cures all. Kids are people too. "How would I like to be treated if I was doing this?" They need support through their emotions. When we think these things through with compassion as our goal, it all becomes very simple. If we can truly put ourselves in another's shoes, the solutions become more nurturing and less about short term goals.


That is so true, and I really don't want to raise a kid who thinks he is not allowed to have certain feelings. Whenever DH defends our parents' way of repressing tantrums and demanding emotional stability with the phrase "Look at us, we turned out okay!" I always give him this look:










and ask him to think about how he handled his last emotional meltdown...usually the answer is too much alcohol, raging at store clerk over the price of bananas or some similar event, or punching a fist into a wall...is that what we are defining as healthy choices? Really?

It's hard not to pass on our own legacies and it's hard to have the amount of patience with children that is really needed (i mean once a week or month the average compassionate person can handle 3-4 times a day is like "enough already!" am I right?) but I try to remind myself of two things:

a) if I need a time out to collect my compassion and then go in to the fray, that's okay...it's not about a battle of wills. I'm not giving in by going in to them. It's about helping them and finding a solution that works for everyone, not winning or losing control. They need my help and I am uniquely qualified to help them. They are not trying to manipulate me, they are trying to get their needs met.

b) it's not going to last forever. There will be a time when tantrums are only once a day, and then once a week and eventually hardly at all and before I know it they will be having them so infrequently I won't even be the person they turn to for support and help. The more patient I am and less I try to get them to shut up and "behave" the more likely they will get through the other side of this faster and more capable of handling their feelings.

That's what I tell myself.

I think it's important to admit here that I'm not perfect at this, I'm still learning, and I still have days where my tantrums clash with my children's tantrums or my husband's and the whole house melts down. We're only human. But it helps to remember that part of being human is having emotional reactions to things beyond our control. Feelings are okay, and expressing those feelings (in ways that do not harm others) is an important part of connecting with our humanity, and learning how to apologize genuinely to others when our expressions DO hurt others is also an important step.


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## pitchfork (May 3, 2005)

I just want to second the notion that *some* kids, especially HSP ones, might find negotiating too scary, too much power, and feel more comfortable with some not negotiable items. It seems like responding well to a cosequence might be a clue. FWIW, i have long been a faber/maslish, and UP parent but am recently finding that my (highly sensitive and SPD) 5yo is having a similar response to things. He is able to reel in the tantrums when he has a consequence like the one you mention in your original post. I actually came to the GD board today to help sort out some natural and logical consequences and also some natural structural, procedural things that might help him (we put away toys before we watch a tv show) because he has so much trouble, crying and demanding whatever it is he is fixated on. For my DS also, I know it is some OCD type stuff with his SPD, so i think i am having to accept that my ideals may have to shift some, from only totally natural consequences (you dont wear your coat you get cold) and NVC/negotiation and "would you be willing to" type interactions to more things in his life that are not negotiable, to give him a framework in which to feel safe.

Good luck getting to the bottom of this for your DD mama, sounds like you are working hard for her!


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pitchfork*
> 
> I just want to second the notion that *some* kids, especially HSP ones, might find negotiating too scary, too much power, and feel more comfortable with some not negotiable items. It seems like responding well to a cosequence might be a clue. FWIW, i have long been a faber/maslish, and UP parent but am recently finding that my (highly sensitive and SPD) 5yo is having a similar response to things. He is able to reel in the tantrums when he has a consequence like the one you mention in your original post. I actually came to the GD board today to help sort out some natural and logical consequences and also some natural structural, procedural things that might help him (we put away toys before we watch a tv show) because he has so much trouble, crying and demanding whatever it is he is fixated on. For my DS also, I know it is some OCD type stuff with his SPD, so i think i am having to accept that my ideals may have to shift some, from only totally natural consequences (you dont wear your coat you get cold) and NVC/negotiation and "would you be willing to" type interactions to more things in his life that are not negotiable, to give him a framework in which to feel safe.


Yes, alas, sometimes kids don't respond as they do in books.

One of my HS children absolutely needed rewards (he was far too scared to go outside his comfort zone to ever earn consequences) to learn some things. Reward charts are not something I like or recommend. And yet he needed the structure of seeing his progress. I got him a book called "1st Grade Fun" to do a on a plane once, and he was thrilled because it had little stickers you could put on the path for each page you completed. The good news is, that as he's ages, we don't need to the rewards/consequences stuff anymore. His sensory stuff is under control, and he's learned through rewards and our encouragement that he is comfortable trying a few new things or learning a new skill. He feels proud of his accomplishments and has really blossomed. He's 9 now, and I haven't used any rewards since he was 6. But for a while, he loved those.

Ironically, my other highly sensitive child is completely unmotivated by rewards. She's the one that needs to know when there's no room for negotiation. It's kind of like her mind is spinning out of control and she needs a firm something to bump up against to get it back down to earth. It's a painful bump, but in the end, it's what she needs. But when she's out of control, she's completely illogical and cannot reason or negotiate. Once she's stopped spinning out of control, she's fine. I think her mind can see so many possibilities that she gets overwhelmed.


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## pitchfork (May 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LynnS6*
> 
> < my other highly sensitive child is completely unmotivated by rewards. She's the one that needs to know when there's no room for negotiation. It's kind of like her mind is spinning out of control and she needs a firm something to bump up against to get it back down to earth. It's a painful bump, but in the end, it's what she needs. But when she's out of control, she's completely illogical and cannot reason or negotiate. Once she's stopped spinning out of control, she's fine. I think her mind can see so many possibilities that she gets overwhelmed.


Thanks for the reminder that they are kids, not books.







it helps with the guilt...this description of your dd describes my ds to a "T". I feel like I am really having a big shift in awareness around what he needs and why his behaviour is the way it is, and learning to give him the limit to bump up against and then ride it out. Not so fun.







. Glad to hear it gets easier. I was thinking of adding in some "power games" from the Raising our Children Raising Ourselves" book too, to balance the authority with a playful way for him to feel in control sometimes...


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## Fillyjonk (Sep 21, 2007)

thanks for all replies and sorry its taken me a while to respond, have been away.

I don't think she is a highly sensitive child or that she is overwhelmed by stimuli. I just don't have that vibe from her. I do get that from my youngest child a little, but not her.

Clarification on sleeping arrangements. Am a bit confused. She normally shares with her siblings, a slightly older brother and a slightly younger sister. However sleeping arrangements are really flexible round here. If dp is away, or if someone wants to come in with us, we sort it out. Its not an issue. The problem that we have is that we have a small house and small rooms and having several kids in with us each night means we really don't get a good nights sleep, UNLESS we do a more permanent furniture move. Which we'd do, it's not an issue, but we can't do that every night (the beds will fall apart, aside from anything else, they are on their last legs as it is!). Our sleeping arrangements are really flexible. We have rules about letting people sleep, and making sure people get enough sleep, but we don't much care where people sleep.

re the time with me, I've pondered this but actually I think she gets relatively a lot. She is in kindergarten 2 mornings a week, and aside from that she is basically with me, or me and dp. Because I have 3 kids, I do get a fair bit of alone time with each as usually the other 2 can be persuaded to go off and play together. She loves to play violin or piano duets, so we do a lot of that.

The audiobooks thing is so hard. It's come out of the blue. I have been kind of assuming that she has some underlying need, but I can't work out what it could be. I should point out that she can actually read fairly well, so its not like she can't put a torch on (or come into the hall and put the light on) and read the books.

The hard thing is that aside from this thing at night and just refusing to discuss stuff, she is lovely. TBH I don't think I am trying to repress her. I'm asking her, at 5, not to scream her head off at 2 in the morning...but I'm not telling her her emotions are invalid. And I'm trying to discuss them the next day and getting nothing. I do the whole , " you want an audiobook,", etc stuff with her-I do my best to validate her. At which point she often screams even louder. We have neighbours with little kids and live in a typical UK terrace (rubbish insulation. We can hear conversations next door with ease)

We are, I'd say, a very logical family. No one aside from her has tantrums past age 3. Dp and I do not often shout at each other. Not that i think there is anything wrong with shouting really, I just think that between us it woudln't achieve much. We discuss things calmly. It is possibly quite hard to be in this family for her if she is naturally quite exuberant in emotions and there is no clear model for how to be like this.

I will look into the noise limitation headphones after payday ;-) . Noise machine sounds interesting too...I wonder if i can find (free!) white noise on the computer?


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fillyjonk*
> 
> I wonder if i can find (free!) white noise on the computer?


I use the radio on a static station for my DD at night.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Does she sleep a lot to compensate for being up until 2 a.m.? If not she may not be getting the sleep she needs and that may be a lot of the problem. If she is a child who needs more of a routine she may also be reacting from that. My dd is very predictable and doesn't do well without a routine. When she was younger she was much worse about having to have routine than she is now that she is 8, but she still really needs a basic routine. For a child that needs routine staying up until 2 some days and being able to sleep in then having that routine interrupted on other days for school just wouldn't work, even a vacation can be a nightmare if it isn't planned around the important parts of the routine and I always notice a lot of changes in behavior when my work or school schedule change and we have to tweak the routine. If she is the only child still having the fits and you haven't found anything else causing them I really suggest you look into trying to put some routine into her days for a month or so to see if that helps. It is hard to have a child who needs routine when you don't, but life is so much nicer when you accommodate that need.

Also, even if she reads well she may like the book on tape better, especially at night, because the material is at a higher level that matches her comprehension abilities or because she doesn't have to work hard to hear a good story. Going out to the hall in the middle of the night to read a book to yourself is much more laborious than just listening to a story someone else is reading.


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