# toothbrushing



## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

What do you think about forcibly brushing your child's teeth? How far would you go to get toothbrushing done? Would you hold your screaming child down and get it done?


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## surfamy (May 24, 2005)

Hi Abbie,

I am interested in the replies you will receive. I don't have the right answer, but we do have to hold down my 19 month old to brush her teeth. She has some decay and it is imperative that I brush her teeth at least twice a day. She does not like it at all and cries, squirms, kicks, and screams when I do this. I feel horrible about it, but I would feel worse if her teeth got really bad and we had to have drastic measures (i.e. teeth extraction etc.)

I just try to use a gentle calm voice and tell her what I am doing, telling her that I'll be done in just a second. I let her have a toothbrush and have a go at it before I have my turn. The best and fastest way I have found is to lay her on the floor with her head between my legs and my legs over her arms. This gives good access and makes it quick.

We never had to do this with our older daughter as she never had any teeth troubles. We just wiped her teeth until she was old enough to brush on her own and then let us brush, perhaps around age 2. Unfortunately, we couldn't do this with dd2.

So, does this jive with gentle discipline? Um...as for us, it is simply what must be done. I just try to do it as gentle as possible.


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## CanBoo (Nov 17, 2006)

In our house tooth brushing is NOT an option.
DD does it by herself in the morning, but our rule is that Mommy and Daddy have to be able to have a go at it in the evening.

On some evenings where she fights it, we have given her the choice in between her doing it nicely or should we hold her. Sometimes she picks being nice, sometimes she picks being held. Not very GD I know, but there are things that just have to be done. Using the tons of tricks such as brush mine, sing a song, distract with a story, etc but it just made the whole ordeal last longer and became a torture on bad days.
We explain to her every time that brushing teeth is important for our health and that we brush ours too.

When she collaborates nicely, we do point out to her how much faster it is and that we have more time for reading stories that way. She is starting to get it, but there are times when we do brush against her will :-(


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Unless a child is in imminent life threatening danger, I don't think anyone should be physically forcing a child to do anything. As a parent who practices gentle discipline, I absolutely would not condone holding down a screaming child for tooth brushing. In my opinion, that is abusive.


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## donnaworkingmomto4 (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
Unless a child is in imminent life threatening danger, I don't think anyone should be physically forcing a child to do anything. As a parent who practices gentle discipline, I absolutely would not condone holding down a screaming child for tooth brushing. In my opinion, that is abusive.

but certainly letting the kids' teeth rot out isn't a suitable alternative?? My three year olds hate it, but I try to get their teeth brushed at least once per day.


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## Kristin0105 (Mar 1, 2008)

tooth brushing is not an option here but I do let her choose which tooth brush, which paste, and where we brush. I also ask if she wants to brush her teeth first or after getting changed. Then we play the germ game which germies are in there today and what are they doing? Is it Tigger bouncing from tooth to tooth? Or is it oscar and friends playing games? Thomas building a train track? I get really animated and think up all sorts of crazy things. She usually starts out saying no but is in a fit of giggles as soon as I start brushing. Some nights she even wants to know who is in there before hand and there are days she brushes on her own in the middle of the day.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

When ds was younger, this was a HUGE issue for us. I tried hard to be consensual for most things, but it was not working for toothbrushing.
DP has never forced ds to do anything, and is usually very very good at working things out, but even then there were times that ds just wasn't going to let it happen.

Ds had cavities from a young age (well before 2yo), so NOT brushing wasn't an option for us. I did NOT want to resort to holding him down. Some of the other things we tried, I honestly believe, were more upsetting to him than being held down though. I tried making it agreeable, being patient, letting him choose when/where/how, letting him watch tv, basically you name it, I tried it. I even tried skipping a few brushings in a row, hoping we could start with a clean slate. Nada.

I did end up, on occasion, holding him down to brush his teeth. That was only when dp wasn't able to get ds to cooperate (dp didn't get as emotionally involved and upset as I did, so he DID have better luck than I did most of the time). That phase didn't actually last *that* long, and soon dp was able to find some sort of workable solution with ds for every toothbrushing.

I have to say, holding a child down is not really something that I agree with doing, and I don't feel good about having done it. But I wouldn't condemn someone for doing it if it really seemed like that was the only option they had left, either.

Ftr, toothbrushing is not an issue now at all (well, we occasionally get "I'm toooo tiiiirreeeeddd to brush my teeth" lol), and ds's most requested position for toothbrushing now is laying with his head on my lap, and he asks me to brush his teeth more often than he asks dp to do it.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
Unless a child is in imminent life threatening danger, I don't think anyone should be physically forcing a child to do anything. As a parent who practices gentle discipline, I absolutely would not condone holding down a screaming child for tooth brushing. In my opinion, that is abusive.

I agree with this. My 3 year DD's teeth are not permanent, the effects of how I treat her are and so is our relationship. My DD has some decay, mostly on the top and a chipped tooth, so I know it's important. My DH and I both brush our teeth while DD brushes hers, then one of us helps brush hers again. Sometimes she wants DH to do it, sometimes she likes him to hold her upside down while I do it and every once in awhile she does so well with her spinning tooth brush that we don't need to. We did have awhile when she didn't let us get the top teeth well, hence the decay, but she still trusts us and expects people to treat her respectfully. We're getting her teeth fixed, while sedated, in about 10 days. So brushing is going to be more of an issue so there isn't new decay. But the challenge is to motivate my DD to co-operate and help her learn to brush better.
We did have to hold her still once to remove a bead from her nose. She was hysterical because there was a bead in her nose, but was very relieved to have it out. It may not have been life threatening, but an inhaled bead would still have been very serious. It may have been more difficult if we were in the habit of routinely holding her still.


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## BaBaBa (Jun 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
Unless a child is in imminent life threatening danger, I don't think anyone should be physically forcing a child to do anything. As a parent who practices gentle discipline, I absolutely would not condone holding down a screaming child for tooth brushing. In my opinion, that is abusive.

That's exactly what I was going to say except I'm not sure I consider it abuse. I could definitely never do it but that's just me.

I think tooth brushing is over rated and diet and eating habits not given enough credit.

I think with gentleness and patience a child will eventually accept it. A little creativity and even bribery is okay too. It may take days, weeks or even months but they will get that maturity. The effects of being physically forced may be permanent.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BaBaBa* 
I think tooth brushing is over rated and diet and eating habits not given enough credit.

I think with gentleness and patience a child will eventually accept it. A little creativity and even bribery is okay too. It may take days, weeks or even months but they will get that maturity. The effects of being physically forced may be permanent.









:


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
Unless a child is in imminent life threatening danger, I don't think anyone should be physically forcing a child to do anything. As a parent who practices gentle discipline, I absolutely would not condone holding down a screaming child for tooth brushing. In my opinion, that is abusive.

I guess I am an abusive parent.

Here is how I have done it...I don't know if it's the right way, but it doesn't feel abusive.

Since she was about 6 months old I gave her her own tooth brush to chew on and she loved it. After she got a couple of teeth I began to let her brush my teeth while I brushed her teeth, at the same time. Well, this really didn't do a very good job so I decided to hold her and tilt her back. I sing the ABC song and when the song is over the brushing is over. Now she knows it won't last forever.
Sometimes she fusses and sometimes she doesn't. I have to position her just right or she will squirm away. I hold her on my lap, cradle position, tilted back with one of her arms under my arm and I hold her free arm in my hand (with the arm that her back is resting on). So, my right hand is free to brush.

I think the key is to not be stressed about it. Show her that it is fun. Do a dance while you brush your own teeth. Hum a toon or make funny faces.
Sometimes you have to do things they don't like. Their fussing is their way of expressing their dislike and it's ok for them to express their dislike, but it isn't going to change the fact that I have to brush her teeth, change her diaper, put her in the carseat, etc. She can be fussing like crazy and as soon as we finish she says in a happy voice, "BATH!" Come on, she really wasn't that upset.
To me, tooth brushing is a "have to". The alternative is hours in a dentist chair possibly needing drugs or to be asleep for procedures. If a parent neglects tooth brushing and the result is drugs and a dentist chair, that is child neglect, bordering on abuse.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Shami, what I picture from the phrase 'screaming child being held down' is different from what you described as a fussing child being gently and calmly held.


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
Shami, what I picture from the phrase 'screaming child being held down' is different from what you posted as fussing child be gently and calmy held.

That good to know. Thanks for clearing that up.
eta to the op
There were two occasions when she was SCREAMING. In those cases, i cut it short and we went to bed half brushed. Once I just stopped and we tried again later. I am not a CL type but I do respect her wishes as much as possible. When she communicates (by fussing or screaming) I try to find a way to do it more gently or at another time. She is generally a cooperative kid and wants to make me happy. At first I was afraid to "give in" to her, but my experience has been that if I give a little, she gives a lot!


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## possum (Nov 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BaBaBa* 
That's exactly what I was going to say except I'm not sure I consider it abuse. I could definitely never do it but that's just me.

I think tooth brushing is over rated and diet and eating habits not given enough credit.

I think with gentleness and patience a child will eventually accept it. A little creativity and even bribery is okay too. It may take days, weeks or even months but they will get that maturity. The effects of being physically forced may be permanent.

Reading over in the dental forum and outside dental lists and experiencing ECC with my whole, traditional foods-eating son (discovered around 15 months), has really changed some of my parenting ideals. There are A LOT of mamas who are dealing with ECC in their kids despite stellar diets. Having a very young child with health problems (yes, ECC is a health problem) is really hard, and parents have to make the best choices they can for their children. Sometimes NO choices seem good. I wish just letting my son keep brushing his own teeth like he did before was an option, but I just don't feel like it is the best one I can choose. We're not talking a cavity or a chip or some cosmetic stuff that he will lose when he's 7. We're talking about severe damage that could result in the need to extract teeth early, and may very well become painful and need dental work done. There are so many things to weigh when considering the effects of our choices on our children.
Every day I read from parents who feel awful over being separated from their child after a procedure under GA or over the safety or this or that procedure. It's not easy to make hard choices, and sometimes the most gentle choice a parent feels she can make is to brush, brush, brush those teeth with all the love and tenderness she can. Some folks don't have weeks or months or years.


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## poiyt (Jul 6, 2008)

Put me also in the camp that doesnt force tooth brushing - especially with baby teeth. Not that i want my child to have a rotten mouth (we promote healthy eating, and dh and I DO brush our teeth) but we also accept that baby teeth are after all milk teeth and are biologically designed to be felxible and around during the development stage and then to fall it. Its important that the habit of brushing teeth is established now -but I dont see forcing it.

As an anecdote...my parents forced me to brush my teeth as a kid, and when I was older I had to brush my teeth (and I did) 3 times a day. I was the dork who brought their toothbrush to school, or did it as soon as I got home...I had tons of cavities every time! every time! It sucked...I took such good care of my teeth and my teeth were still bad. To this day I have great oral hygene and every time I go to the dentist I am afraid of what they will say. DH on the other hand had the grossest oral hygene until we moved in together (I have a thing about clean looking teeth...) and he has never in his life had a cavity..ever. Some people just have bad teeth regardless of whether they are forced to brush them...


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## Daphneduck (Jan 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
To me, tooth brushing is a "have to". The alternative is hours in a dentist chair possibly needing drugs or to be asleep for procedures. If a parent neglects tooth brushing and the result is drugs and a dentist chair, that is child neglect, bordering on abuse.

I took this out of context but it best sums up how I feel.
My dh and I have spent thousands of dollars on dental care. We have genetically poor teeth. Baby teeth or not, poor dental care can cause health complications, to risk that, IMO, is neglectful.
I have held dd down and forcibly brushed her teeth. I wish that it weren't necessary, but sometimes it is. I can understand why a parent may be too soft hearted to resort to force, but as I stated, I feel that is neglectful. I really feel badly when it needs to be done, but I feel it would a worse transgression to put my desire not to see her sad above her very health.


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## sunnygir1 (Oct 8, 2007)

True, baby teeth are not permanent, but it can cause major health and dental problems if they are allowed to decay. Not to mention the expense and suffering of dental visits. I have a friend whose 3 year old just had to be put under anesthesia for dental surgery because her decay was so bad. It is affecting her mouth and lips, and will negatively affect her adult teeth.

I have always forced tooth-brushing as gently as I can manage. Now that dd is getting older, 2, I can usually talk her in to cooperating by looking for animals or food (talking about what we ate that day), but when I can't, I hold her down. She gets mad right away and opens her mouth to protest. She does not get hysterical and she always recovers immediately. I have had so many fillings done that I just can't see allowing her teeth to go uncared for. The fact that she is becoming more agreeable to having me help brush her teeth as time goes on makes me believe that no damage has been done to her emotional self.


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

It seems to me that there are 2 camps forming int his thread. It has struck me that there are some basic philosophical differences that divide the camps.

One camp believes that brushing your teeth is THE deciding factor in keeping your teeth healthy. Poor brushing, skipping a day, ignoring minor tooth issues in baby teeth are all things that will lead to expensive and painful time in the dentists chair. Tooth brushing is a non negotiable. Parents that do otherwise are neglectful.

The other camp believes that dental health comes from a variety of factors. Genetics and nutrition play a large role in dental health. Tooth brushing is important, but is not the deciding factor. Minor issues in baby teeth do not automatically lead to expensive and painful time on the dental chair. Tooth brushing should be modeled and encouraged but not forced. Parents that do otherwise are abusive.

I guess it really comes down to what you believe causes tooth decay as to what camp you will be in. (Or maybe I am overly simplifying all of this.)

Either way I believe I understand where folks are coming from a little better now. Thanks for all of the great responses. I'm off to







before bed.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbbieB* 
It seems to me that there are 2 camps forming int his thread. It has struck me that there are some basic philosophical differences that divide the camps.

One camp believes that brushing your teeth is THE deciding factor in keeping your teeth healthy. Poor brushing, skipping a day, ignoring minor tooth issues in baby teeth are all things that will lead to expensive and painful time in the dentists chair. Tooth brushing is a non negotiable. Parents that do otherwise are neglectful.

The other camp believes that dental health comes from a variety of factors. Genetics and nutrition play a large role in dental health. Tooth brushing is important, but is not the deciding factor. Minor issues in baby teeth do not automatically lead to expensive and painful time on the dental chair. Tooth brushing should be modeled and encouraged but not forced. Parents that do otherwise are abusive.

That was a fairly good summary (except there may be some overlap from each camp, maybe a little co camping).
I disagree slightly with your last sentence. I know I used the word abusive in my first post, but that was when (_which I later explained in another post - and I will further explain now_) I envisioned someone pinning down their screaming child in order to brush their teeth. That's not a mere 'hurting of feelings'. That sounds, to me, as though it would be extremely traumatic to the child (and since I have toddlers, I am certainly picturing a toddler), especially if done on a regular basis. That specific behavior is what I thought sounded abusive.


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
I envisioned someone pinning down their screaming child in order to brush their teeth. That's not a mere 'hurting of feelings'. That sounds, to me, as though it would be extremely traumatic to the child (and since I have toddlers, I am certainly picturing a toddler), especially if done on a regular basis. That specific behavior is what I thought sounded abusive.

Let me tell you what is traumatic. Not being able to give your child a spoonful of cold yogurt or anything from the fridge because they are in extreme pain trying to chew, being put under general anesthetic, having surgery and teeth removed and being in pain days after that... THAT is traumatic.

It's interesting to see that in the no-forced-brushing camp there is no parent with children who had to go through that.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

copied from the other thread:

I once felt I needed to do this, but if never felt right to me. I have since learned many many things that can be done.

let child watch in mirror
attach tooth brushing to a short song or count to x - so they know there is an end in sight
rearragne your "schedule" so something fun happens after teeth brushing (instead of play, brush teeth, bed - try brush teeth, play, bed)
brush only with water
brush with kids toothpaste (this is the one my son prefers)
let them pick their own toothbrush
let them brush your teeth
give them the option to brush their teeth and you finish, or you brush and they finish
let them use mouthwash sometimes instead
clean teeth with a cloth instead of a toothbrush
model proper tooth care... "im going to brush my teeth now!' "this is how I brush my teeth" "my mouth feels so fresh!"
make it an adventure
brush for shorter amounts of time, more frequently - or let them carry around a tooth brush to brush when they feel like it

other things that are good for your teeth are:
dirnking lots of water
eat fiber-rich raw foods, which massage the gums and cleans the teeth. Raw foods also increase salivation, which neutralizes acids and alkalis within the mouth. You may grate, dice, ground, blend, or juice raw foods. Good raw foods to eat are apple, carrot, radish, cucumber, orange, pear, beetroot, watermelon, etc. Eat some raw food after every meals. This will help clean your teeth and gums due to high water content. After eating citrus fruits or juices, rinse your mouth with water.
Eat sprouts of beans.
Eat high protein foods.
Avoid eating meat.
Avoid sugars and starches.

Brushing is not the only way to keep our teeth clean and healthy. I have to agree with Abbie on this - coming from a reformed forcing tooth brusher, I felt like I was abusing my child by forcibly brushing his teeth. Since we stopped and have found other ways he allows me to brush his teeth. I know how hard it can be, because my son has sensory issues and this way one of those things.

My husband takes excellent care of his teeth, and he has lost many teeth as they rot from the inside out. it's terribly sad. I often forget to brush my teeth (even though my mom made sure I did twice a day and did a 'good job' when I was growing up), and I am constantly complimented on what a beautiful smile I have and how white my teeth are. Sometimes, its just genetics - I have good strong white clean teeth even though I sometimes (okay often) forget to brush. And I don't have bad breath either. I've had one cavity in my life and who knows if it really even WAS one.

ETA: my son is ASD with SPD. He is EXTREMELY orally defensive. In fact, he hates his head being touched, his ears, his face, HIS MOUTH, sometimes he doesn't like to be touched at all. I once thought forcibly brushing his teeth was the only way - but its NOT. and we wouldn't have gotten past that if I didn't change my ways. And when I did forcibly brush his teeth I felt terrible, and it did feel abusive. just my experience. I personally think the face that my son has ASD with SPD was all the more reason NOT to forcibly brush his teeth. Unfortunately, these types of children have it hard, and then we parents sometimes make it even harder for them. It's like they are getting punished for being different. Gentle Parenting is still an option - even with special needs and strong willed/spirited children. At one point, I would have said "well you don't know my child!" I have learned there is always another way. Instead of saying "that wont work for me" ask yourself "how can we make this work for us?"


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transylvania_mom* 
Let me tell you what is traumatic. Not being able to give your child a spoonful of cold yogurt or anything from the fridge because they are in extreme pain trying to chew, being put under general anesthetic, having surgery and teeth removed and being in pain days after that... THAT is traumatic.

It's interesting to see that in the no-forced-brushing camp there is no parent with children who had to go through that.

its not interesting to me, since I know these things can be genetic. I know, from my husband, you can take excellent care of your teeth and still have this very problem. I know, from me, I can not brush my teeth and have clean, white, healthy, strong teeth and nice breath. I am so sorry for what you son went through regardless though! HUGS!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transylvania_mom* 
Let me tell you what is traumatic. Not being able to give your child a spoonful of cold yogurt or anything from the fridge because they are in extreme pain trying to chew, being put under general anesthetic, having surgery and teeth removed and being in pain days after that... THAT is traumatic.

It's interesting to see that in the no-forced-brushing camp there is no parent with children who had to go through that.











I have to agree with the observation in the last sentence.

Here's my post from the other toothbrushing thread going on:

My daughter went through a phase for about a year (from about 18-30 months) where toothbrushing was torture. I made sure every few days I got a good brush in (even if it meant swaddling her in her bathtowel for a minute) and let her do it the rest of the time (which essentially meant chewing on the brush and sucking the toothpaste off). I figured if I got a few good brushings in every week, we'd just have to cross our fingers and hope for the best. Now, I am not a consensual parent and am not always opposed to forcing kids to do things. This was just one that felt very wrong to me, beyond wrangling her into her carseat or carrying her out of a store kicking and screaming (which I have been known to do without feeling guilty - just so you know where I'm coming from). This felt far more violating and intimate. So I backed off mostly, and only pressed it every couple days.

Suddenly, about 2 months ago, brushing was AWESOME. She willingly opens her mouth and lets me dig around in there with the electric spinny toothbrush and even is practicing spitting now.

So anyway, just wanted to throw in a voice from the middle ground - I didn't let it completely go, but I didn't force a parental brushing every day. And it pretty much resolved itself in a year's time.


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
its not interesting to me, since I know these things can be genetic. I know, from my husband, you can take excellent care of your teeth and still have this very problem. I know, from me, I can not brush my teeth and have clean, white, healthy, strong teeth and nice breath. I am so sorry for what you son went through regardless though! HUGS!

glad it's not interesting to you. I agree that genetics can play a part in it.

From the other thread, our experience:

In my case, teeth brushing made all the difference. Same child, same teeth, same diet, when we started brushing our dental problems stopped. When he refused, I tried all I could, singing, having daddy brush his teeth, taking turns etc. Most of the times it worked. But when it didn't I had to do what was best for my ds.

It's been almost 3 years since ds hasn't had any dental problem. He likes brushing his teeth and lets me brush them no problem. So a couple of forced teethbrushing weren't traumatic at all.

By any means, I'm not saying that every parent who doesn't brush his/her children teeth is neglectful. If your child has no dental problems, I see no harm in letting him skip teethbrushing once or twice. But to those who are judging us, don't go around telling other people they are abusing their child because you have no idea what you are talking about.


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## Ophelia (Feb 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbbieB* 
One camp believes that brushing your teeth is THE deciding factor in keeping your teeth healthy. Poor brushing, skipping a day, ignoring minor tooth issues in baby teeth are all things that will lead to expensive and painful time in the dentists chair. Tooth brushing is a non negotiable. Parents that do otherwise are neglectful.

The other camp believes that dental health comes from a variety of factors. Genetics and nutrition play a large role in dental health. Tooth brushing is important, but is not the deciding factor. Minor issues in baby teeth do not automatically lead to expensive and painful time on the dental chair. Tooth brushing should be modeled and encouraged but not forced. Parents that do otherwise are abusive.

I definitely believe that genetics/nutrition etc. play a major role in whether or not a person will have decay and cavity issues. HOWEVER, there is NO way to know whether or not your child is going to start having issues (until it's too late!) so I like to err on the side of caution and promote good and regular flossing and brushing.
This is one of the major issues we are having right now. DS does not want teeth brushed and won't say why. He may have a reason and not be able to articulate it yet.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
Unless a child is in imminent life threatening danger, I don't think anyone should be physically forcing a child to do anything. As a parent who practices gentle discipline, I absolutely would not condone holding down a screaming child for tooth brushing. In my opinion, that is abusive.

I agree.
I know we all worry about their teeth 'rotting out'...but lets be realistic. I guess it would be a problem if all my son drank was coke and all he ate was sweets. But none of these things pass his lips anyhow. Not to mention, there is much more to 'teeth rotting' than just a crappy diet/food - like genetics. Some times, no matter how much you brush those teeth, you are prone to cavities (meaning the forced brushing wasn't really worth it in the end as it wouldn't have made a difference in the teeth anyhow - yet possible affecting other areas of their life). So if he doesn't want his teeth brushed, they are his teeth - his choice. Forcing something like this just not worth it to me - the lack of trust, the confusion on respect and a healthy attachment, etc ...all for a plastic item with bristles on the end. Whats the worst than can happen? They get a cavity? It hurts? The learn why, though natural concequence, its a good idea to take care of our teeth? All their milk teeth fall out and they get a new set. My son went through a whole 9 months of not wanting his teeth brushed. He was happy to 'do it' himself







hehe - but that wasn't a real good brushing. His teeth are fine. No cavities. None of them rotted out! Our attachment relationship is the same. No fears or phobias were created. And now he loves to brush his teeth and loves me to brush them and really enjoys the whole experience (including flossing!) and I have no doubt that the trust and respect between us is all the better for me never forcing him to brush his teeth! (hes older now as well and we can talk about these things and because ive never tricked him or forced him in the past -he listens and trusts me just the same as I have never let him down) Which to me matters more than a tooth that isn't even mine. I really believe that children can better learn to respect their bodies and take care of them through us respecting their bodies and trusting them (never forcing) and they can't get the message through force. Its the same with every other thing in our lives - such as why I don't force my son to wear clothes if he wants to run around the house naked all day, etc. Some peole may not think that that is the same as the possibilty of a cavity from lack of dental hygeine - but the underlying message to my child and in our relationship is the same. If I _forced_ tooth brushing, how long would that struggle last/go on? What would it do to our relationship? What would it do to my sons relationship with himself? etc Those are the things that really matter to me - who he becomes as a person is what is going to affect the world - not if he has a cavity.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

what *I* find interesting is parents who force brush their children teeth, but don't do ANYTHING else to help their teeth such as:
making sure they drink plenty of water
have them snack on fiber rich raw foods
limiting sugar and starches
and so on...

like brushing teeth will somehow magically protect the child from a diet of candy bars and soda (not saying anyone HERE does that, talking about real life people I meet)

"who he becomes as a person is what is going to affect the world - not if he has a cavity. "

well put ann


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## possum (Nov 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transylvania_mom* 

In my case, teeth brushing made all the difference. Same child, same teeth, same diet, when we started brushing our dental problems stopped. When he refused, I tried all I could, singing, having daddy brush his teeth, taking turns etc. Most of the times it worked. But when it didn't I had to do what was best for my ds.

. . .

But to those who are judging us, don't go around telling other people they are abusing their child because you have no idea what you are talking about.

I agree.

Honestly, I think anyone not acquainted with the trauma involved with dental issues in young children should spend a bit of time in the dental forum. Sure people who brush their teeth still get cavities.
Sure people who eat really well get cavities - or not. Sure people with and without genetic histories of ECC or "bad teeth" get cavities - or not. Sure people who have gut and body dysbiosis may or may not get cavities. Sure BFed kids get cavities - or not.
Some of those things we can change and others we cannot; mamas dealing with ECC in their babies have a lot of issues to weigh to help maintain their babies' health and well being. Diet and oral hygiene are two of the places that MANY MANY mamas have been able to make changes to help halt or slow decay. Sometimes, decay still progresses, but even slowing the decay so that children can avoid major dental procedures until they are 6 months or a year or 2 years older can allow children time to mature enough to understand the procedures, prepare for them, articulate their fears and discomforts, and just deal with it better.
While there are lots of things to try before holding a small child down to brush his teeth, when parents have exhausted these lists and more and still those teeth need cleaning, sometimes it is the only option that will work.
I have noticed a big change in my son in the last month or so. When it's time for us to brush his teeth (he has free access to toothbrushes all day and is encouraged to play with them from time to time), he can choose to sit in out laps or lay down on the floor between my legs. More and more lately, he chooses to sit in my lap. I can tell it's still really hard for him to keep his hands from flying up and pulling the tooth brush out, but as he's gotten older, his impulse control has developed. When we had to start brushing at 15 months, he had NO impulse control. Since he didn't like brushing teeth, he couldn't have stayed still no matter what.
Until people have dealt with a very young child who NEEDS help in maintaining his health, please don't judge others who have to make hard decisions. No one wants to do something their child doesn't like.
If this were some other sort of medical care, would people make such a big stink?


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

just don't assume that brushing teach will with certainty protect one from such trauma. ask my husband, who brushes his teeth at least 5 times as often as I do, and only has half a mouthful of teeth, some of which are cracked, some are decaying, and some are black. he is missing most of his molars, and could really use dentures if we could afford them, and he's only 26.

that being said transylvania, I can understand why you look at things the way you are right now.

for me, I realized that it wasn't so much that it was "force him to brush his teeth or nothing" but more so to find a way to get his teeth brushed without forcing him. and my only regret was ever thinking I had* to force him. I never had to force him. he could have clean teeth without me forcing. teeth brushing is no longer an issue, teeth get brushed, we don't force it.


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
That was a fairly good summary (except there may be some overlap from each camp, maybe a little co camping).
I disagree slightly with your last sentence. I know I used the word abusive in my first post, but that was when (_which I later explained in another post - and I will further explain now_) I envisioned someone pinning down their screaming child in order to brush their teeth. That's not a mere 'hurting of feelings'. That sounds, to me, as though it would be extremely traumatic to the child (and since I have toddlers, I am certainly picturing a toddler), especially if done on a regular basis. That specific behavior is what I thought sounded abusive.

I totally agree.


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## possum (Nov 23, 2004)

Nope, I don't assume that tooth brushing will keep my son from ever needing to get dental work. I know it won't. I also know that good oral hygiene is one thing I can to do keep the decay at bay. Since we noticed the rapidly progressing decay about 8 months ago, we have made changes in our diet (GAPS to improve digestion/absorption), brushed twice a day, swishing with water after eating and brushing, and started using xylitol mints after eating and brushing. If the decay had continued at it's initial rate, I am sure he would have had to have all four of his top incisors removed with untold pain before and after and no one knows what amount of emotional trauma from having to go to a dental office or hospital to get work done.
I can't quantify how much time brushing his teeth has added to his teeth, but I am confident that it has and am confident that the added time for my son will mean that when we do have to have dental work done, he will be older and more mature and more ready to face those challenging situations than he would have been without brushing.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I understand why you feel that way.

I am fortunate that even though bad teeth run in my family, I don't brush often and don't have dental problems.

I do agree we should do things to keep our teeth healthy. I feel there are many things besides brushing that can do that. I do think that some people brushing makes no difference and does not decrease their risk of cavity. I once brushed the enamel off my teeth... for me, brushing less is better. brushing more would not decrease my risk of cavities, but increase my risk of tooth sensitivity.

and ultimately, I'm not saying one shouldn't brush their childs teeth or that not brushing is better then brushing. However, it was my experience that I felt I *had* to *force* my child to brush his teeth. I had *thought* I had tried *everything* and that there was *no* other way that would work for *my* special needs/sensory defensive - especially orally/spirited/explosive child. Once I got it out of my head that I *had* to do *this* and that *sometimes thats just the only option left* etc was I truly able to help my son. I had to stop saying "I tried everything, this is my only option left" and start saying "what am I missing?" "what else *can* I do?" We always have more options and by that I do not mean "force them to brush their teeth or let their teeth rot out" im talking about the things inbetween - including the things we missed even though we *think* we already explored all the other options.

Holding my child down and forcing his teeth to be brushes, while at the time done with great intentions, was effecting him in an abusive way. Much like my mom used to spank me with loving well meaning intentions, but it effected me in an abusive way. It was not worth it. And ultimately, while I would hate my child to get a cavity, I can also not have my child suffering by my hands. I should be a source of comfort not trauma. If he experience a cavity and that is traumatic for him I will be able to realize that could happen even if I *had* forced him to brush his teeth. And I can realize that the trauma is not being caused by my hands. I cannot live with traumatizing my child over this issue. Because I also don't want him to experience trauma from tooth pain either though, I decided I would not give up on finding a solution. I would stop resolving to "I tried everything and my only choice is to hold him down" ... there are many times in the past I thought I had tried everything - until I thought of something else to try. In the last few months, as my way of thinking has changed, I no longer find myself saying "I've tried everything!" but instead saying "what else can I try?" and I will say our home has become much calmer, gentler, and cooperative. And my special needs/sensory-defensive/explosive/spirited child is doing better. There was a time I did a lot of forceful things regarding hygiene...I thought there was no other way...I used to say no one understand because their child is not like mine... now we get those same things done without force... Now I no longer feel like anything has to be done forcefully. If anything, the fact that my son is those things is all the more reason I SHOULDN'T use force with him... however, at one time, that was my excuse for using force. go figure.

While I feel my previous actions were abusive, I know I was not abusing him. We all do the best with what we know. thats what I did then, and thats what I am doing now. I don't think it necessarily makes me a better parent then who I was then, as far as my heart is concerned - though of course, my actions are better now.


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

Awesome post Super Glue Mommy.


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
what *I* find interesting is parents who force brush their children teeth, but don't do ANYTHING else to help their teeth such as:
making sure they drink plenty of water
have them snack on fiber rich raw foods
limiting sugar and starches
and so on...


where did you get that from????
My ds's first sweets was his 1 y/o birthday cake (he took a bite out of it). He didn't have any soda until 3 and we don't drink soda anyway. He recently weaned, after his 4th birthday. I tried to do everything right.

...the only thing I don't like in this thread is people making all kind of assumptions and judging without even trying to understand. And that's too bad, because I feel that we are all on the same page. We all say want to model and encourage good dental hygiene, we resort to all kinds of silly games when it doesn't work, but some of us let go the couple of times the child is uncooperative, while others don't. I haven't seen anyone saying that they brush their child's teeth without trying everything before, EVERY night, for extended periods of time.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transylvania_mom* 
By any means, I'm not saying that every parent who doesn't brush his/her children teeth is neglectful. If your child has no dental problems, I see no harm in letting him skip teeth brushing once or twice.

I don't think there are only two choices: brush or don't brush.
The only issue I have addressed is 'how' the brushing is done.

I can't remember now which post I mentioned how frequently my children would brush their teeth if I let them. I greatly attribute their acceptance, and even desire to brush, on the way I initially approached teeth brushing.


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ann_of_loxley* 
Whats the worst than can happen? They get a cavity? It hurts? The learn why, though natural concequence, its a good idea to take care of our teeth? All their milk teeth fall out and they get a new set.

as I said before, the worst it can happen is having to go through dental surgery while he's still a baby, being in pain when he tries to eat anything cold, having teeth removed and speech problems because of that (fortunately my ds was spared of that).
My ds started being in pain around 15 months. All his front upper teeth and some molars had to be capped. I wasn't letting him go through another 5-6 years of pain just to teach him to take care of his teeth.
I vehemently disagree with natural consequences if they involve letting a child experience pain to teach him a lesson.

It sounds your child has healthy teeth and probably won't experience any of this, good for you!


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
what *I* find interesting is parents who force brush their children teeth, but don't do ANYTHING else to help their teeth such as:
making sure they drink plenty of water
have them snack on fiber rich raw foods
limiting sugar and starches
and so on...

like brushing teeth will somehow magically protect the child from a diet of candy bars and soda (*not saying anyone HERE does that, talking about real life people I meet*)

"who he becomes as a person is what is going to affect the world - not if he has a cavity. "

well put ann









what I wrote

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transylvania_mom* 
where did you get that from????
My ds's first sweets was his 1 y/o birthday cake (he took a bite out of it). He didn't have any soda until 3 and we don't drink soda anyway. He recently weaned, after his 4th birthday. I tried to do everything right.

...the only thing I don't like in this thread is people making all kind of assumptions and judging without even trying to understand. And that's too bad, because I feel that we are all on the same page. We all say want to model and encourage good dental hygiene, we resort to all kinds of silly games when it doesn't work, but some of us let go the couple of times the child is uncooperative, while others don't. I haven't seen anyone saying that they brush their child's teeth without trying everything before, EVERY night, for extended periods of time.

that is a very selective quote you took from me, leaving out the poart where I said I wasnt saying that about anyone HERE - so it was obviously not directed towards you!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
I don't think there are only two choices: brush or don't brush.
The only issue I have addressed is 'how' the brushing is done.

THIS!!!!

Quote:

I vehemently disagree with natural consequences if they involve letting a child experience pain to teach him a lesson.
but you will inflect pain by your own hands in order to prevent a natural consequence that 1)may not occur and 2)may not be prevented by the pain inflicted by forcible brushing. I rather be the one who comforts a naturally occurring pain, then to be the one to inflict suffering in order to _possibly_ prevent the pain of a cavity.

That being said, i'm not saying don't brush teeth, just saying I don't think *I* did the right thing when I held my child down to brush his teeth, though at the time I thought I was. I changed from thinking "this is my only option" to "what options have I missed" that made all the difference for my son. yes, when I was holding him down brushing his teeth I would have sworn up and down on my life that there was no other option if I wanted to get his teeth brushed. It's not like I was doing it for fun. but the reality was, I was too busy defending myself to myself, saying there was no other way, I had to do it for his health, to protect him, yada yada yada - for me to find another way. Why? because I was 110% sure there was no other way. Once I moved on from that I saw there were other ways. there are always more ways. I asked for help and tried everything everyone had suggested and NOTHING was working. but there were still other ways. they just hadn't been thought of yet. you dont think of them if you just accept where you are at because you think you have no other options though. you learn those ways by NOT accepting it, and by continuing your search until you find a resolution.

yes I tried (what I thought at the time was) everything else every time before holding him down. but the thing was IT WASN'T EVERYTHING ELSE. and I couldn't learn that if I kept saying I tried everything. I could only learn then when I said "what haven't I tried" and the only answer that I didnt allow to that question was "nothing - i tried it all"

and yes this is the only difference:
"some of us let go the couple of times the child is uncooperative, while others don't."
I will let it go the couple of times, because I believe with my child a couple of times of missed tooth brushing does less damage then a couple times of forcible tooth brushing. of course, I use that as my cue to find a way to get tooth brushing issue resolves ASAP, so a couple of times doesn't turn into many times. when I closed the door by saying I tried everything I was choosing many times of forced brushing over a few times of skipped brushing. When I skip and look for resolutions I find the resolutions faster and the MAIN problem of _resistance_ to tooth brushing is resolved more quickly.


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## leezann (Dec 2, 2008)

Plaque causes tooth decay. Brushing removes plaque. Whether or not they are baby teeth or not decay is very serious. Decay can cause damage to the bones in the gums which could lead to big problems when the adult teeth grow in. I have been brushing both of my kids mouths since before the first teeth came. When my ds complains I show him a picture of someones mouth w severe decay and he lets me brush. I have had to hold both kids down and brush. I explain that we will be done in a minute and if I do not brush your teeth that you will not be able to chew your food or smile nicely. . . usually works. I do not yell or physically hurt them in any way. I respect my children's wishes as well but, it is my job to make sure they are healthy and safe!


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 

but you will inflect pain by your own hands in order to prevent a natural consequence that 1)may not occur and 2)may not be prevented by the pain inflicted by forcible brushing. I rather be the one who comforts a naturally occurring pain, then to be the one to inflict suffering in order to _possibly_ prevent the pain of a cavity.


no. You are blowing things way out of proportion. I'm not inflicting pain on my child, the same as not anyone who is putting an uncooperative child in a carseat isn't. It happened sporadically when ds was around 18 m/o and no amount of reasoning would have worked.

The natural consequence DID happen. It stopped happening when we got serious about teethbrushing. And in our case it wasn't the pain of A cavity. You are trying to minimize our dental problems while blowing my actions out of proportions.

As I said before, if it works for you, great. But abuse, inflicting pain, suffering are serious words and you shouldn't go around accusing people of these things; these are very mean and serious things to say.

You said you held your child and forced tooth brushing on him and then discovered better ways to do it. How do you know your child didn't simply grow out of an oppositional attitude, as most of our toddlers did?
My child gladly lets me brush his teeth now and I'm not attributing it to my superior ways of parenting.


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## nalo (Oct 25, 2005)

nevermind. not in the mood to argue anymore.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

emotional pain is pain too.

and you say "if it works for me" that used to be my attitude - that maybe it worked for others but it didnt *couldnt* work for me. I had to get out of that mindset and start asking myself how *can* it work for me. Now my son's teeth are brushed, AND its done in a gentle way. I think we could have gotten to this point sooner if I hadn't resigned to holding him down. I never accused anyone else of being abusive. I only said I felt it was abusive when I was doing it and that is why I stopped.

I know my toddler didnt grow out of it because he is still sensory defensive. and it got resolved when I tried new things I had never tried before. Because if I don't do it the way that he is okay with, I get the same reaction as before. My son has sensory issues. He's not going to "grow out of them". We had to heal that broken trust as well to get to this point. that trust I broke by holding him down, that was affecting our relationship and behavior issues in other ways that I didn't realize were connected at the time. He didn't "outgrow" it, it's still there, but understanding his needs more has helped me. And it helps him too to understand his sensory needs. It helps him to know its okay not to like it. It helps him to know he doesn't have to do something that feels wrong to him. That I will support him in finding a way to do what needs to be done in a way that feels right. I feel my change of attitude has helped him in many ways. The forcibly holding anyone down to do something to them of course will affect them in many more ways. this is also why I no longer get into power struggles with my children. and why they cooperate more and everyone is happier. It's definitely harder for those who have children with special needs, so I can really understand why those mama's feel they have no choice and feel they have tried everything. I felt that way once to.

just remember to ask yourself what CAN you do, instead of resigning that you already tried everything. in the meantime I find the least amount of damage will be done if you can find a way to keep those teeth clean without force. keep trying to brush them, keep trying to solve the problem. You will solve the problem faster this way (in my experience that is) Don't be like me and resolve to months of damage from holding them down, instead of a few weeks of alternative methods to keeping teeth clean while trying to solve the problem. The damage of holding a child down for a couple months is much more then the damage of not brushing teeth using a toothbrush but keeping them clean in other ways for a couple weeks.


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## tessa67 (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
brush for shorter amounts of time, more frequently - or let them carry around a tooth brush to brush when they feel like it


Just be careful on this one. My dd liked to walk around with her toothbrush in her mouth but I just envisioned her falling and having it jammed down her throat so we stopped that.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
what *I* find interesting is parents who force brush their children teeth, but don't do ANYTHING else to help their teeth such as:
making sure they drink plenty of water
have them snack on fiber rich raw foods
limiting sugar and starches
and so on...

like brushing teeth will somehow magically protect the child from a diet of candy bars and soda (not saying anyone HERE does that, talking about real life people I meet)

"who he becomes as a person is what is going to affect the world - not if he has a cavity. "

well put ann









You're comparing apples to oranges. Since we're here on MDC, I'm going to assume that we're talking about parents who feed their kids a healthy diet and DO make them brush their teeth vs. feeding your kids a healthy diet and NOT making them brush their teeth.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

im not talkign about MDC mamas im just saying what I find interesting since we were on the subject









however im not assuming anything just because I am on MDC. there are mamas here who don't use gentle discipline. mamas who dont cloth diaper (like me) mamas who do vaccinate and mamas who do circumcise. there are all kinds of mama's here and I have learned its safe NOT to assume anything.

there may be mamas here who don't eat organic or healthy, but force brush teeth

just as there are mamas who do eat healthy and force brush
and mamas who do eat healthy and dont force brush
and mamas who dont eat healthy and don't force brush

there are 4 catagories. and within those catagories are subcatagories - of mamas who don't force brush because their child willingly brushes, and those who dont force brush and the teeth dont get brushed.


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## Ophelia (Feb 16, 2005)

Quote:

*let child watch in mirror*
attach tooth brushing to a short song or count to x - so they know there is an end in sight
rearragne your "schedule" so something fun happens after teeth brushing (instead of play, brush teeth, bed - try brush teeth, play, bed)
brush only with water
*brush with kids toothpaste* (this is the one my son prefers)
*let them pick their own toothbrush
let them brush your teeth*
*give them the option to brush their teeth and you finish, or you brush and they finish*
let them use mouthwash sometimes instead
clean teeth with a cloth instead of a toothbrush
*model proper tooth care... "im going to brush my teeth now!' "this is how I brush my teeth" "my mouth feels so fresh!"*
make it an adventure
brush for shorter amounts of time, more frequently - or let them carry around a tooth brush to brush when they feel like it
I highlighted the above that I have tried so far.
DS is high spirited.
We are having this exact trouble right now, he hasnt' wanted to brush his teeth for a while now. Before, playing the 'bug' game worked, now it doesn't. all I have to do is mention tooth brushing and he says NO. The last few days I have tried having him brush a puppet's teeth and then trying to get the puppet to brush his teeth. It's sort of working, but not too well. His teeth have not been properly brushed for at least 3 weeks now, except the one time I did hold him and do it, which I hate doing for the reasons you mentioned, it feels abusive to me. He got really upset the time before when I did that so I'm trying everything I can think of. He spits pretty good so I'll have to buy a natural mouthwash for him and see if I can do that occassionally. He is too young to understand that if he doesn't brush his teeth may go bad.

Oh, we bought a timer. I think it worked once.

H thinks, as with everything else we have DS issues with, that DS needs to go to his room until he cooperates







He does not want me to hold DS down and force it (neither do I) but I do not think his solution is any better, or any less traumatizing.

*ETA: the bug game worked a bit last night. H asked him if he had a cricket in his mouth and 'he better get it out!" DS brushed for a tiny bit and then didn't want to anymore.*


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I like to see a lot of creativity and a minimum of force on this issue. But I would 'never say never' at this point. I am close friends with a GD mother who is also a dentist and have seen/heard first hand the trauma of small kids with rotten teeth. Certainly if your child is at risk for dental problems, I don't think you are being gentle in the long run if a lack of dental care results in extensive dental work. If I did feel it was a choice between my child enduring a tooth brushing or an extraction, the choice is an obvious one for me.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

it's tough isnt it? both of those solutions sound less then ideal for sure Ophelia. I go through things too where something works for a week then doesnt anymore. then it seems after finding many things that do work, they suddenly are okay with any approach. sometimes an approach that didnt work last week works this week.

We have a problem with my son and bathtime. it's tough. But we taught him to wash himself and that helps. And we let him only bathe twice a week and wash his hair once a week and that helps. you know what helps the most? having someone else give him a bath! for some reason if my husband or friend does it then he doesnt mind. Well yesterday was one of his bath nights and I said "what if (my friends name) comes to visit? then she's going to say you need a bath" and he started talking about my friend, who he adores. and I said, "oh did you want to tell me all about her while I give you a bath?" and he said yeah bath! and he gave himself a bath and dumped water on his own head - the whole 9! he also started washing his face every day. sure, that doesnt mean THAT approach will be the magic solution to your problem, but it's funny how sometimes we think we have tried everything, and then we think of something new - something no one else has even ever suggested to us before, and it works! and sometimes, something that didnt work before will start working, or sometimes we modify only slightly something that didnt work and then it works. the possibilities are endless.

The way I see it the only option im NOT okay with is forcing it. so when I can decide - its important to me to get these teeth clean, but the only thing im not willign to do is X that helps me. Just like when I became a parent and I said the only thing I WONT do is spank my children (and now I feel that way about punishment in general) I don't feel I have limited myself by exclusing a small handful of options when I have a world of solutions, some undiscovered but available none the less. Some things are just unacceptable for my family. Some people are willing to do whatever it takes. I'm not saying either is wrong, just that its wrong for my family. Some people only spank their children as a last resort. For my family we don't have last resorts. My children will know that I will always do whatever it takes without hurting them, and that solutions are in endless supply just like my love for them. There are no last resorts, because I always say "what would I do if xyz was a last resort and that didnt work either?" well I wouldn't give up on my child. so we skip right past the last resort and figure out what else we CAN do.


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## novaxmomof2 (Nov 3, 2008)

This is a very good discussion. I've been on both sides. I tried everything I could think of with my now 19-month old but he's never been willing to brush his teeth or let me do it (even though I started wiping with a soft cloth at the first sign of a tooth). I didn't push too much at first because I'm all about GD but when his top two front teeth started staining I got concerned. A lot of the moms in my mom's group's kids have cavities and many of their dentists told them it was SO important to brush their kid's teeth even if they had to hold them down to do it. So, I started holding him down and brushing them. My husband saw me doing this once and was horrified. I explained to him that sometimes as a parent we have to do things we'd rather not do for the good of our children but it still bothered me. I struggled because I didn't want to upset him so much just to have clean teeth but I didn't know what else to do. Well, I've finally found something new that works! I bought one of those rubber finger brushes and I will pick up my son and turn him upside down and tickle him and brush while he laughs. He LOVES this! I may not be doing as great of a job as I could while holding him down but this way I don't feel like I am hurting him emotionally and he's still getting his teeth brushed. Now that I have stopped forcing it, sometimes he will lay down for me and let me use the toothbrush and I will still always try that first. But if he's not having it I'll resort to "tickle brushing". I pray that I didn't damage him by holding him down (it only went on for a couple of weeks) yet at the same time I believe it is important to do our best to keep their teeth clean. However, I would never judge anyone who had to hold their child down to brush their teeth for 30 seconds because I've seen pictures of toddlers with rotten teeth and heard horror stories of the subsequent dental work to fix them. We all just have to do what feels right to us. But I remember how AWFUL it was when my older brother would pin me down and drop water on my forehead or otherwise torture me and I realized that in a way it was sort of the same thing I was doing to my little boy. I'm just hoping that as he gets older he'll become more willing to let me brush his teeth properly. Thankfully his older brother is a toothbrushing champ and since he wants to be just like him.....!


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Like CanBoo, my dd (age six) brushes her own teeth in the morning, and I do them at night.

Yes - we have and will, if necessary, hold her down and brush them while she's screaming.

I also have a fifteen month old dd, so I anticipate some toddler tooth brushing battles with her as well.

Dental hygiene is not an option here - we'll do whatever we can to make it mutually enjoyable, but I'm not past holding them down.


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## beingmommy (Sep 4, 2008)

My DS is 21 months old and his two top front teeth have weak enamel. They came in discolored and started chipping away within a few months. All his other teeth (he now has 16) are PERFECT. So it's very obvious to me that it's an issue with the actual teeth and not anything we did.

He has a cavity already in one of the front teeth. We see a fabulous natural dentist (after a horrid visit with a anti-BFing jerk) and she is very gentle. BUT we do have to make sure his teeth are brushed everyday. WE HAVE TO. Otherwise he will have to have them filled or pulled and at his age it would have to be under GA. I am terrified of the risks with that so I do brush his teeth twice a day. Sometimes I have had to hold him down gently (I do the head between my knees and legs over his arms method). I do not like it. It does make me feel sad. But the thought of losing him in some freak accident with GA is much worse.

Luckily, he has never been outright screaming and struggling about it. He'll fuss while I get him into position and then relax once I start brushing. I sing a little song and do it as quickly as possible. I also give him the brush when I am done so he can brush them himself. AND I have let him brush MY teeth too. Lately he has been much more relaxed about it and he'll hold one of his toys while I brush so I have not had to pin his arms in a few weeks. He even opens his mouth so it is getting easier.

But if we go back into a phase where he is fighting it I will still have to find a way to get his teeth brushed each day even if it involves gently holding him down. The risks if we do not are too great.

As far as nutrition goes, my son was late to start solids (about 16 months) and is horredously picky and still not that interested in food. He is still probably 85-90% BFed. He eats a little fruit, some chicken, yogurt and cheese. I wish I could feed him more varied things and all those good high fiber teeth friendly things but he refuses to touch them. We do not feed him anything sugary or junky. I also rub a little xylitol gel on his teeth a few times a day.


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## Carma (Feb 10, 2006)

I noticed that when I try to brush as gentle as possible (I have a 18 month old and a 42 month old, they both need help), they tolerate it much better.
To try I had my husband brush my teeth and it actually hurts quite easily! You need to do it slower and more gentle than you would expect for it to not hurt.
From then on I focused on doing it as gentle as possible, and it worked in our case. Not every day, when they are overtired I am ok with just rinsing with water for one time.

Carma


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## puddlejump (Oct 12, 2008)

I'm not very active here but I've been reading this discussion with interest - as a 25yo with very bad teeth and a 19mo who usually doesn't want her teeth brushed. Every couple of days I do force a good thorough brushing (she doesn't like it, but I wouldn't call it traumatic). I've gotten some new ideas to try with her, so that's good.

I just wanted to point out a couple of things from my pov...

1. I _wish_ my parents had forced me to brush my teeth when I was younger. I wasn't responsible (or whatever) enough to do it on my own regularly until I was in my teens. My parents tried, but I threw a fit every time and they gave up. Looking back, I can see that I had sensory issues. By then, my permanent teeth were already discolored, full of fillings, and I'd had a couple of molars pulled out. I suspect it's largely genetics, but even so - the problems could have at least been put off for longer. The same happened to my baby teeth. I still remember having some pulled when I was in kindergarten. And the pain of cavities as a child.

2. Having bad teeth (once you're old enough to understand it) can be very emotionally difficult... it has been for me, anyway. Really, I'd even call it traumatic. I have periods of time where I have nightmares about my teeth. They're so tied to image in our society, bad teeth = dirty person, shame, etc, not to mention pain and difficulty eating. I don't have the thousands and thousands of dollars it would take to make them look nice. I'm definitely not advocating tying down a screaming child or whatever, I'm just saying that not forcing brushing doesn't mean there's no emotional trauma.

I'm not judging anyone for their decisions or directing this at anyone, just throwing my own experiences out there. If you don't have to deal with bad dental genetics, that's awesome! Seriously. But it can be a big, difficult issue for those of us who do. And I realize we're talking about toddlers & not adult teeth







.


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## MayBaby2007 (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
im not talkign about MDC mamas im just saying what I find interesting since we were on the subject









however im not assuming anything just because I am on MDC. there are mamas here who don't use gentle discipline. mamas who dont cloth diaper (like me) mamas who do vaccinate and mamas who do circumcise. there are all kinds of mama's here and I have learned its safe NOT to assume anything.

there may be mamas here who don't eat organic or healthy, but force brush teeth

just as there are mamas who do eat healthy and force brush
and mamas who do eat healthy and dont force brush
and mamas who dont eat healthy and don't force brush

there are 4 catagories. and within those catagories are subcatagories - of mamas who don't force brush because their child willingly brushes, and those who dont force brush and the teeth dont get brushed.


Just wanted to say that I'm one of the mama's in the minority with diet here. I buy fresh apples and bananas--all other fruit is canned with that syrup stuff. It's cheaper. She had strawberry frosted mini wheats for breakfast yesterday. And we both pigged out on Recees cereal for dinner the night before.







We were hungry and our "dinner" didn't turn out very well. And sometimes in the morning when I'm really tired, I'll toss her some kind of breakfast bar, loaded with all that bad stuff that most people on this board fear. We do "healthy"...but we also do junk, according to time/money/and my energy level.

That said. DD hates when I brush her teeth. She'll "brush" her teeth while I get ready for work, but she just eats the toothpaste. I've let her teeth go for 1-2 weeks at a time because I didn't want to "abuse" her and hold her down. I waited until her teeth had a yellow film before I "abused" her to brush her teeth. Reading this board convinced me that I was abusing my daughter if I forced her to brush her teeth.

Frankly, I'm tired of that. So, mommy has a new rule. She willingly lets me brush her teeth or I hold her down. Those are the options. Once recently, she brushed mine while I brushed hers. No problems. If she doesn't want to cooperate, I sit on her so I can brush them. They need brushed. Even if she eats healthy stuff all day.

She refuses to get strapped in her car seat at times too. I'm pretty lienant (sp?) on a LOT of things. In fact, she pretty much does what she wants, when she wants. I don't think I'm asking too much of her by strapping her in carseat or brushing her teeth (or hair...another issue we're struggling with).

If she poops in her pull up she doesn't want me to take it off.
Should I let her sit in poop all day because Little Miss Sunshine wants it that way? Should I let her teeth rot because Little Miss Sunshine doesn't want her teeth brushed? Should I let her roll around in the backseat instead of being strapped because Little Miss Sunshine doesn't want to be secured in carseat? Where is the line? (Pardon the vent. We've got the full blown "independent-two's-complete-with-head-banging-tantrums" going on....and Little Miss Sunshine is givng me a migraine).


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

As I posted earlier, we persuade our DD to brush not force. Also she had work done on her teeth while sedated yesterday. It's very important to us for her teeth to be brushed each day and for her not to develop any more problems. We were brushing tonight both using the spinning toothbrushes. She wasn't doing a very good job or letting me brush her teeth either, so I ask her if she wanted to brush my teeth and handed her my tooth brush. My DD thought it was very funny and grinned, letting me brush her teeth while she tried to brush under my tongue. It was so much more effective than the other 'games' we've tried. I was able to take my time more than most nights.


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## MayBaby2007 (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ssh* 
As I posted earlier, we persuade our DD to brush not force. Also she had work done on her teeth while sedated yesterday. It's very important to us for her teeth to be brushed each day and for her not to develop any more problems. We were brushing tonight both using the spinning toothbrushes. She wasn't doing a very good job or letting me brush her teeth either, so I ask her if she wanted to brush my teeth and handed her my tooth brush. My DD thought it was very funny and grinned, letting me brush her teeth while she tried to brush under my tongue. It was so much more effective than the other 'games' we've tried. I was able to take my time more than most nights.

This is what I tried with dd the other day. It was really successful. She brushed mine while I brushed hers. She got a kick out of it. I held her jaw to steady her and brushed. I had to keep reminding her to keep her mouth open...but it was a pleasurable experience for both of us. (But if she doesn't want to cooperate I will revert to the not-so-nice method, because I feel it is important).


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## Unconventional1 (Apr 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BaBaBa* 
That's exactly what I was going to say except I'm not sure I consider it abuse. I could definitely never do it but that's just me.

I think tooth brushing is over rated and diet and eating habits not given enough credit.

I think with gentleness and patience a child will eventually accept it. A little creativity and even bribery is okay too. It may take days, weeks or even months but they will get that maturity. The effects of being physically forced may be permanent.

We eat an extremely high quality diet- no refined anything, with occasional sucanat (this does not deplete the body of calcium unlike refined sugars) and honey for sweeteners. My DS had decay due to a vitamin D deficiency in me. The decay was quite bad for some time, but we have had success with healing his teeth. That said, brushing teeth after every meal is a must, and we have held DS a few times- I held him on my lap while DH brushed. This happened a few times, now he does his teeth without issue. We were gentle but firm that this was something we had to do. We do not believe that sedating is healthy, and the dentist is so destructive compared to natural healing.

Letting the decay go wasn't an option either- he was starting to have pain from the decay before we figured out the cause and treatment. We also didn't want the pain and lack of teeth to affect his nutrition either.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

did resolving the vitamin D deficiency in you help at all? just wondering...


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## Unconventional1 (Apr 3, 2006)

It did help a great deal- we also give DS Carlsons cod liver oil (which is what I use) and that has helped too. Also raw milk, and breastmilk- DS self weaned at 22 months because I was pregnant and he didn't like the switch to colostrum, so I pump for him now.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

that's great! im glad to hear that!


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## Snuzzmom (Feb 6, 2008)

Whoa! It's *that thread.*

I try every single thing I can think of before I do any sort of forcing, and we've been quite fortunate lately that our DS has been brushing well lately (with assistance). When he resists, I use whatever enticements I can think up (games, teeth counting, "showing" his rhino how to do it, etc.), and I'm even fine with skipping a tooth brushing if I have somehow put him in a situation where he's too tired to deal with it or he's ill or whatever.

But if he started resisting full-time, and no game or amount of time would convince him? You bet I would. I'd hate every second and so would he but I personally feel like I'd be doing him a detrement to let his dental care slack. If you don't feel this way, don't force your kid to brush their teeth.

I don't let him eat dried fruit or super chewy things because his brushing isn't up to that, and we're nowhere near flossing. His processed sugar intake is minimal. He drinks only water, green juice and milk. We absolutely do what we can aside from teeth brushing to encourage good dental care, but brushing teeth is a crucial part of that and I won't let it go for more than a day or two. Whether you (the general you) believe that teeth brushing is important or not is your business, though the medical and anitidotal evidence is pretty overwhelmingly supportive of that fact.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Unconventional1* 
We do not believe that sedating is healthy, and the dentist is so destructive compared to natural healing.

My DD had several small cavities, but our main concern was a severely chipped tooth that had become painful. There was at least one third of the tooth missing. She broke it while playing. She's quite a climber. Our DD is 3, so if it's hurting now because the inner parts of the tooth are exposed, we didn't feel it could wait until she loses it naturally and it's replaced. Since she was sedated to have that tooth repaired anyway we had the small cavities filled too. We're glad that she also hasn't had any trauma associated with either dental work or brushing. As I said we don't force, we're just persistent and creative.

Our DD also had a bath strike before she turned 2. We just stopped trying to wash her hair and it didn't last long. When she did get back to not minding her head being wet again we just rinsed instead of using shampoo. Her hair didn't seem to need shampoo to look and smell clean.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ssh* 
As I said we don't force, we're just persistent and creative.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *ssh* 
Our DD also had a bath strike before she turned 2. We just stopped trying to wash her hair and it didn't last long. When she did get back to not minding her head being wet again we just rinsed instead of using shampoo. Her hair didn't seem to need shampoo to look and smell clean.

My daughters' hair gets dry if I shampoo it more than once per week. I also have bathed Abigail in the kitchen sink when she went on a bath strike just to keep her clean in between, and she liked it. She got over her bath strike pretty quick because I didn't make a big deal out of it.


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## Unconventional1 (Apr 3, 2006)

About half of DS's tooth has crumbled due to caries, but with our diligent supplementing and oral hygiene routine it has calcified over the part that was exposed.


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## SweetPotato (Apr 29, 2006)

Wow-- I wasn't expecting all this when I decided to check out this thread! My dd is 3.5yo and has never been a fan of toothbrushing (and yes- I've tried all the games, etc.) I was pretty laid back about it for quite sometime because I wanted to resepct her wishes, etc.-- but she now has two small holes in the enamel of her front top teeth and I am absolutely kicking myself for not setting it up as a non-negotiable way back when. As much as she doesn't wnat her teeth brushed, she dislikes even talking to the dentist far more-- let alone actually opening her mouth and letting her poke around (she's extremely slow to warm up with adults). I've become a real hard-nose now about brushing twice a day, and I really do think it would be easier if I'd been consistent about it from day one. That said-- I don't ever hold her down and physically force her (I honestly can't think of a way that I could do that that wouldn't feel horribly invasive) What I do (and don't feel very good about, but can't see any mutually acceptable alternatives) is to let her pick out which toothbrush, then she starts crying that she doesn't want to brush her teeth-- and then I pretty much wait her out. I basically tell her to let me know when she's ready for me to brush her teeth and that I'm going to go do some of my projects until then. This feels sort of mean to me, because the end result is that she wants so deperately to be with me (or, more accurately, she wants so desperately for me to not ever walk away from her) that she ends up cooperating. Like I said, I don't feel like it's very "nice"- but I'm able to maintain calm (which is difficult for me sometimes when she gets very upset) and it does eventually get the job done without me physically prying her mouth open- and then I always tell her how great she is at spitting like a big girl, etc. I've waited in the hallway for 20+ minutes while she tantrumed about it a couple of times, but I'm just not willing to "let it slide" because I really think that having the dental work done would be far more traumatic for her. Sometimes I wonder if my letting her make SO many decisions for herself at such a young age- before she could really have any understanding of the longer term consequences of those choices- unintentionally set us up for conflicts like this. I kind of feel like I let her down, and I'm really really looking forward to the day when toothbrushing is just one of those things that she expects and accepts as a normal part of her day.


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