# "Passing" and the obligation to let it all hang out



## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Can you "pass" for anything?

How do you feel about that? Do you feel the need to correct people's incorrect assumptions of you? If you do, what does it take - do they have to make a clear statement that they think you are something you're not, or does it just take any mention of the general subject of race/religion/sexual orientation/whatever?

I'm bi, but I "pass" for straight because I'm married to a man.

I'm Jewish, but I "pass" for Christian because there are no visual markers of my religion (such as the headcovering Orthodox women wear). I'm pretty much non-practicing anyway.

I don't try to pass for anything, mind you - I'm just talking about what people often assume about me. And I do feel the need to correct people's assumptions when the topic of conversation makes it clear that the person is not aware they are speaking to "one of those people."

The thing I have a hard time with is explaining this to people. I've had people ask me why I need to tell anyone about my sexual orientation since I am married to a man anyway. Of course, all the people who ask me this are straight. I also find that some people seem quite uncomfortable when I tell them something so "private." I don't think it's private at all. It's not private that they are straight, is it? How come knowing that someone is straight isn't a problem, but knowing someone is bi or gay makes people immediately think about something "dirty"?

I don't like misrepresenting myself, even if it is just a matter of not correcting someone. It just feels wrong, like I'm ashamed of something, which I am not. Someone who is part of a racial minority would get plenty of flack for allowing people to believe they are Caucasian, wouldn't they? It doesn't seem all that different with religion or sexual orientation.

I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words here, so forgive me if I'm rambling a little. I'm interested to hear responses, though...


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

I see what you're saying.

Can I pass for anything? Since I have nice clothes and am free during the day and sometimes shop at expensive stores, I feel like I "pass" for a rich woman, and it makes me uncomfortable in the way you describe. Example: my supermarket sells local hormone-free milk in glass bottles. It's super-expensive, but I buy it b/c of the health benefits, even though, for us, it's a financial sacrifice. But I have to return the bottles for deposit, and at this supermarket, most of the shoppers are rich and white and most of the employees are African-American, and, I suspect, not paid very well. So I return my bottles every week, to the same clerk, and I just feel like I'm masquerading as this rich lady of leisure who doesn't have to work and can buy milk that's 3X the price of ordinary milk. It bothers me. I feel like I'm flaunting a prosperity I don't even have.

But obviously, I can't announce that I'm really not rich at all.

As far as issues that don't involve money are concerned I don't know what I'd do. I'd feel uncomfortable for "passing" as hetero, if I wasn't, since it would make me feel dishonest, but I'm not sure if I'd speak up b/c I'm also a very private person and generally don't reveal details about my life to anyone,not even friends.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I wrote two different posts and deleted them, O'm just not making sense.

Suffice to say that ITA with everything you posted Lunamom.

the bi/pagan/white chick that is usually assumed to be the hetero/Christian/white chick


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## curlygrrl (Jan 22, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Arduinna_
*I wrote two different posts and deleted them, O'm just not making sense.

Suffice to say that ITA with everything you posted Lunamom.

the bi/pagan/white chick that is usually assumed to be the hetero/Christian/white chick*
Arduinna- we must be twins! ITA (and I hang out with band geeks too, LOL!)

I'm not ashamed of who I am but I don't feel comfortable "correcting" most people because in the area in which I live, I'm likely to be ostracized(sp?) and worse if I "out" myself as a bi pagan, especially at work. I figure these people aren't my friends it's none of their business anyway.

But yes, I guess in a way I feel like I'm doing a dis-service to the community, I dunno.

Any other thoughts?


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Awww, c'mon, Arduinna, I was looking forward to hearing your reply!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I think the only thing I "pass" for is a child of TWO WHITE PARENTS.

In fact, I'm adopted. My Dad is a pasty Brit, but my mother is Eurasian. She has brown skin, very dark brown (looks black) hair (before it turned grey).

When people don't know my parents, I have been party to racist jokes against Asians (which, in my home town, was largely directed to those from Hong Kong). I actually quite enjoy seeing the looks on their faces, and their stammering attempts to back-pedal when I say "my mother is part chinese. she was born in hong kong" while they stare into my brilliantly blue eyes, lol.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

I agree with the OP. The two things I most commonly pass for are Christian and married. I don't correct people as often as I should. I hate confrontation so much!


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

I pass for Christian and straight. I'm a bisexual atheist.
I do correct some people. It depends on my mood more than anything else. Some days I just don't want to get into a discussion. I also don't consider myself to be a spokesperson for either bisexuals or atheists, but some people want to put me in that position. I'm more likely to speak up about the atheism than about the bisexuality.
Although I'm white, I'll also call people on their racist remarks or attitudes, and teach them about privilege (white, heterosexual, Christian, etc.).
I also pass for "straight-edge." I think it's the glasses. People can't imagine me ever doing drugs. I don't, currently, since I'm trying to be a responsible breastfeeding mama. But, people are shocked that I was a real party-girl (in many ways). People are also shocked that a mother could actually be pro-drug legalization.







:
Oh! And I pass for sane all the time. I'm bipolar, but it's not obvious - most of the time. I bring that up when someone makes ignorant comments about mental illness.

That's all I can think of for now! I am white, and pass for white.


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## Spongie (Oct 18, 2003)

I too, pass as hetero and xian. I'm really struggling with not "looking" queer anymore, but I miss my long hair! And getting all dyked out doesn't match the professional/serious student image I'm trying to present. I'm pretty out on campus though, and do speaker panels, so at least I'm (hopefully!) breaking down people's assupmtions that all queer women have short hair and dress like boys.

But, in the summers when I lifeguard all the time, I sometimes get mistaken for latina







:

I also used to pass as male, but I gained a little bit of weight and I'm letting my hair grow.

I have a pair of jeans that say examine your assumptions on the back pocket. I just get really frustrated when people assume that I am a certain way because of the way I look, or that I agree with their bass-ackwards assumptions about the world.

ETA: I try to always call people on stuff, even if the assumptions aren't directed at me. Of course, that sometimes backfires, because now people just blow me off, but at least they are careful about what they say around me, which means on some level they're thinking about it.


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## Kinipela79 (Apr 8, 2003)

I think that a lot of people take one look at me and think "un wed teenage mother who can't keep her legs closed". I look very very young and most people think I am 16 (I'm 24). Some people are down right rude and then when they figure it out all of a sudden they are nice. It happens to my husband too. He is a high school teacher and sometimes people don't believe he is a teacher when he is working!







: It drives us crazy sometimes.

I am also sure that people think that I am a very mainstream mama if they just saw me out and about. But you all know the truth...mwah ha ha ha (<~~ that is supposed to be my "evil scientist laugh :LOL )


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Quote:

Although I'm white, I'll also call people on their racist remarks or attitudes, and teach them about privilege (white, heterosexual, Christian, etc.).
Ah, I forgot that one. That's another assumption I am VERY quick to correct - the assumption that because I am white and middle- to upper-middle-class, that I am racist in that subtle white collar way. I'm amazed at the subtle racist attitudes of many of the people with whom I come in contact, and even more amazed at how surprised they seem when i make it clear that I do not share their point of view at all.


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## neveryoumindthere (Mar 21, 2003)

when ppl see me they think
1. foreigner born overseas
2. doesnt speak english
3. my dh must have *made me* put on hijab







:
4. i'm uneducated

when the truth is i was born and raised in canada, english is my first language and the only language i can read, write and speak fluently and i put on hijab years before i met my dh and i have a univ. degree and am educated in many other topics that i read about on my own...

and yes i *do* let ppl know they are WRONG...maybe it'll open their eyes a bit

related stories: while working at a pharmacy a couple years ago a guy came in and was staring at me while i spoke to him...







so he asks me 'where are u from?' i say 'insert name of city in canada' and he says 'ya but where are you *really* from?'







: i say again i was born *here* and raised here..and he scratches his head all confused and says 'but your english is so good!'







:

and once while on a job interview the manager comments something like 'oh you must be hot in that' and i tell her no i'm not and she says 'oh. right, you must be used to it being from the middle east'...i said 'I wouldnt know, i've never been there'..


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

hmm.

that's an interesting question.

i honestly don't know what people think of me. i know that when people get to know me, they tend to think i'm a little odd, but in a good way (this is what people have told me, anyway). beyond that, i don't know. i guess i haven't bothered to care...

there's one exception to that actually. my dad believes i'm a 100% straight christian who likes bush and agrees with the war in iraq. it is easier than trying to explain to him what i believe... then arguing with him about it for the rest of our lives.


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

It depends on the situation when and whether I correct the assumptions.

If someone pays attention, about half the time my t-shirts give me away, but most people don't pay attention.

If someone pays attention, all the time my jewelry gives me away, but most people don't pay attention.

When I'm with people I don't know well yet, I wait until I know them a bit better, until I have a feel for how they think before I let clues slip.

But in the newpaper....:LOL I say exactly what I think when I write a letter to the editor.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

I'm not passing for much of anything I guess. I'm as boring and predictable as one would guess at a glance. Except I am nursing my 3 1/2 y/o. Which I do anytime she wants and mention in conversation probably more often than is strictly reasonable.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by LunaMom_
*Awww, c'mon, Arduinna, I was looking forward to hearing your reply!







*








:


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

I always puzzle at people's categorizations of sexuality. I think there is more than straight-bi-gay, it is like the rainbow flag, a wide spectrum of variations.

Identify with 'bi' because you want to set yourself apart from 'straight'?

Some people really seem very bi, and some people call themselves bi because of one or two experiences. So I think it is kind of limiting in the same way passing for straight is limiting. Categorizing is limiting.
Another example is 'vegetarian'.
There isn't just 'vegetarian' or 'non-vegetarian'.
Sometimes I like to eat a bit of meat, sometimes I like to call myself vegetarian.
I don't like having to be placed in one or the other category.
All in all, I would rather pass for something than be the person that is obviously trying to not pass for something, like those people that are always wearing their new age spiritual practices like a logo. "Look at me, I'm a buddhist, or look at me, I do yoga."










And anyway, the worst is when people assume that I, like, care.

edited to add:
I hope no one tries to inform me that Buddhism and yoga aren't new....


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

My sisters and I "pass" for several different races. When they (my sisters I didn't get to go wwaahhh!!!) were in Egypt people thought they were Egyptian and when they were in Italy they thought they were Italian. We have dark curly hair, dark eyes and tan easily.

I have had people ask me if I was at least part black. It is interesting. You really get a strange perspective of how some people react to different cultures when they are making their assumptions and their reaction when you correct them.

We are American Indian and Irish. When I explain this (after the "what are you anyways" question I get often) sometimes people look all relieved and start being more friendly. I have to wonder what they were worried I was.

It is gross.


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## Jentle (Feb 19, 2004)

.... Apparently I "pass" as a vegetarian, which is more comical than anything else - Over and over I've found myself in a situation (like on a plane or at a convention) where a helpful waiter will just hand me a vege dish and I have to grab someone and explain I want meat...

I know I pass as 100% straight, but it only becomes an issue when I'm around lesbians in public who I want to share... glances of fellow-feeling with.

A friend of mine spent years making a big deal of telling everyone that I was her BISEXUAL POLYAMOROUS PAGAN friend, which was pretty amusing to me - the bits of who I am are so much a part of me that I tend to forget about them until I'm reminded by someone who doesn't see that often, kwim?

As far as setting people straight (heh)... If it comes up, I don't avoid it, but I don't hand out pamphlets or anything...

Example - My mother's currently dating this man who, in spite of having several fine qualities, is also a down-home good-ole-boy racist. I call him on this OFTEN... I don't think I "pass" as someone who would put up with or support racism (or any 'ism' for that matter), I think it's more a matter of the <cough>southernidiotTEXAN</cough> mentality to say such things anyway. One conversation we had went something to the effect of his saying something icky, my verbally smacking him, and then -
Him - <drawl>"Hey now, I can't help it - I was born and bred from generations of racists!"</drawl>
Me - "Yeah. Me too. I got over it."
(My mother snickering loudly about my getting him.)


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by abimommy_
*My sisters and I "pass" for several different races. When they (my sisters I didn't get to go wwaahhh!!!) were in Egypt people thought they were Egyptian and when they were in Italy they thought they were Italian. We have dark curly hair, dark eyes and tan easily.

I have had people ask me if I was at least part black. It is interesting. You really get a strange perspective of how some people react to different cultures when they are making their assumptions and their reaction when you correct them.

We are American Indian and Irish. When I explain this (after the "what are you anyways" question I get often) sometimes people look all relieved and start being more friendly. I have to wonder what they were worried I was.

It is gross.*
Relieved? What are they relieved about - that you're not "part black"? You're right, that is gross.


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## littlecurvieme (Mar 15, 2002)

Wow, this is a really interesting thread. *Very* intriguing......

I think I pass for a lot of things,but different things in different places. Those places also depend on whether or not I correct people. I would say more often or not I do, but again, it depends on the situation.

I pass for christian.
I pass for middle to upper class, especially the way that I dress my daughter (but hey, I just know how to work e-bay and thrift stores well!







)
I pass for straight.
Sometimes, I pass for boring.









One of the ones that I haven't heard brought up here yet, was the stuff that I sometimes get about my size. I am not teeny, and people make all kinds of assumptions about laziness, fitness, health status, all kinds of stuff. People are often suprised that I can be fat and a vegetarian at the same time. Obviously they have never heard about carbs. :LOL

Oh yeah, and maybe I am not the only one with this, but I never order diet pop, but servers ask me all the time if I actually wanted diet.

Whatever.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:

Relieved? What are they relieved about - that you're not "part black"? You're right, that is gross.
Right..it is gross...but it does save you the trouble of getting to know someone before discovering what they are like..


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I don't know....... don't we all kind of "assume" certain things until we get to know someone really well?

If someone is married, has two kids, has a mom-bob haircut, wears sweater vests, and doesn't drink or smoke, for example, I wouldn't think that she's bi or a lesbian.

There are certain characteristics about people that allow us to "generalize" on some level or another, ya know? Everyone generalizes to some degree............... if I came on here spouting my atheist pro-choice beliefs, you'd "generalize" me and assume I'm anti-Bush.... right? Do you understand where I'm going with this?

Unless I know someone pretty well, or unless I feel comfortable around someone, I don't automatically go: "Guess what! I believe in x,y, and z, I have bi urges, and I have Cherokee Indian in my blood!" Although I really do think that ppl get a good idea of who I am simply by the way I discuss my views, my sense of humor (which can lean toward naughtiness at times... okay, more often than not







), etc....

Wow, that was a ramble. I hope it made sense, b/c I'm exhausted and I have to go read my People (um, er, uh, I mean my "Shambalah Sun") magazine now:LOL


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by LunaMom_
*Relieved? What are they relieved about - that you're not "part black"? You're right, that is gross.*
My SIL is half black, but her skin isn't very dark. My mother never misses an opportunity to point this out (the light skin) to people. She'll be talking to some stranger about her DIL, and she'll mention that she's half black, but then she'll immediately add the words, "oh, but she doesn't *look* black..." (defensively/apologetically). She even said this *to my SIL's face* once! "Oh, but you don't *look* black!" And she said it in a tone of voice which indicated that she expected my SIL to take it as a compliment!


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

just curious how sweater vests, haircuts and not drinking or smoking has to do with someones sexuality?


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Arduinna - I'm just saying that I come into contact with some women who seem so straight, so uppity, so Christian, so..... well.... right wing that it's natural for me to assume that they're not gay. Does that make sense?

I'm trying to make a point that generalizations are generalizations b/c a lot of times, they are correct. But not all the time.:LOL


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Like, Sleeping Queen. I know she's not uppity or anything... but she is very Christian, very pro-Bush, etc. So I would GENERALIZE and assume that she's not bi or gay. Although I may be wrong....

but probably not.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by candiland_
*If someone is married, has two kids, has a mom-bob haircut, wears sweater vests, and doesn't drink or smoke, for example, I wouldn't think that she's bi or a lesbian.*
I can understand assuming that someone isn't a lesbian if she is married with two kids, but what do drinking, smoking, haircuts or sweater vests have to do with sexual orientation?







:

Quote:

_Originally posted by candiland_
*if I came on here spouting my atheist pro-choice beliefs, you'd "generalize" me and assume I'm anti-Bush.... right?*
That wouldn't be a generalization, it would be a reasonable assumption based on the fact that Bush is anti-choice and a proponent of faith-based initiatives.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Oops, I posted before I saw Arduinna's post.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Okay, you guys are reading waaaaaaay too much into what I posted!

I just wanted to give a little example of how and why people may generalize. It DOESN'T have anything to do with sweater vests, not drinking or smoking, whatever. I *personally* am acquaintances with some, um, uppity Christian women that don't smoke, don't drink, drive minivans, wear sweater vests, etc. etc., and I *assume* that they are not bi or lesbian. Like I said, it's an assumption that may be false.

ETA: I think some generalizations ARE reasonable assumptions. Like what I posted above


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Edited to add, to add: I always *assume* that people will get the general idea of my post and not read into the details, as they are not really well thought-out. I should know better than that by now!:LOL


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

hey, I hope it didn't seem like I was jumping on you. It wasn't meant that way. I just wasn't sure if you just posted those as random examples (which you did apparently) or as applicable ones, that's all.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Why, Arduinna.... do you not drink, not smoke, and wear sweater vests?









:LOL


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

abi... I have a dear friend who has basically the same mix of heritage you do. (Well, I guess technically he is part North American Native since his people are from Canada....) When he and I traveled together in Europe it was just as you described. In Italy he was Italian, in Turkey he was Turkish and in Greece, Greek. I meanwhile... look like Snow White. There was an interesting moment in the airport in Athens (where I think they thought he was Turkish or Middle Eastern) when they seperated us for about 20 minutes and questioned us quite closely about our relationship, how long we had known each other the street address of the home in California we "claimed to share", who EXACTLY packed which pieces of luggage, on and on and on... It was all very Little Drummer Girl and creepy as hell.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

LOL I can honestly say I've never worn a sweater vest :LOL

but I've been known to have a toke and a mojito a time or two


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## DreamerMama (Feb 2, 2003)

I pass for everything. I hate it, but it's true.

If they only knew who they were really dealing with they would take their homophobic, XIAN, white bread, god lovin, nascar watchin, bigoted asses for a walk. They probably wouldn't talk to me ever again.(can you tell I live in the south?)

Funny story; my husband was about to buy a van from our favorite salesman when the prick suddenly went off about gay marriages. My husband said his blood ran cold and walked out not buying the vehicle. We will never buy from him again. What a jackass, he had no earthly idea that both my dh and I are very pro-gay marriage and we both identify as bisexuals. Not that I enjoy labels so much.

I *hate* being so false in who I am. Mostly it is for show for my children at their school. Very few people know who I am and honestly I feel so much safer that way. It is downright frightening some of the anger and hate spewed from peoples mouths.

(disclaimer) I do know not all nascar fans are bigots....just my ranting. So, please don't write me, chastising me about how unfair I am to all of nascar fans, and how I am being predjudice, and how dare I group people together. Blah! So sue me







. It's my rant, leave me alone.


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## DreamerMama (Feb 2, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Arduinna_
*
but I've been known to have a toke and a mojito a time or two







*
Ah ha, your caught! But then, so would I. Toke on sistah!

:LOL


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:

If they only knew who they were really dealing with they would take their homophobic, XIAN, white bread, god lovin, nascar watchin, bigoted asses for a walk. They probably wouldn't talk to me ever again.(can you tell I live in the south?)
WOO HOO no kidding huh!

Quote:

Ah ha, your caught! But then, so would I. Toke on sistah!
well seems we are living up to the stereotype :LOL


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

*


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Boy, this thread is getting so interesting, isn't it?

Candiland, I understood your post (the first one with the sweater vests - I wouldn't be caught dead in one of those, by the way, and it has nothing to do with my sexual orientation, LOL), and let me just clear up one thing - I don't really MIND so much that people make assumptions, because I understand why they do. All of us do - we look at a person, and think we know certain things about them. Often we are wrong, sometimes we are right, and it doesn't really matter as long as we treat people kindly.

My intention in posting this thread was to see how people felt about correcting people's incorrect assumptions - if they do, and why or why not. I find it more frustrating than annoying to be in that position of having to explain myself all the time, and I do wish that people thought a bit more before saying some of the things they say.

I know it feels one way when someone assumes I'm Christian and I correct them, but it feels a totally different way when I have to correct someone's assumption about my sexual orientation. Now, if I lived in a different part of the country, revealing my religion might be as uncomfortable as revealing my sexual orientation, KWIM? And even revealing that I'm bi could be a lot worse if I had a different circle of friends and acquaintances.

Anyway, let's keep going...and Arduinna, I'm waiting...


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## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

Mine passing for things seems to be seasonal.

In the winter, when I am well covered, I am very suburban, white, upper/middle class looking.

But when it gets warm and I start wearing tank and shorts, my tattoos show and all of a sudden..well, people don't tend to lump me in a category.

The best part is in the winter, my being married shocks no one. In the summer (as I usually dress much less girly than the gals around here) people are surprised that I am married...and often don't believe me.

And if you tell the folked I work with that I am trying to get pregnant - well they will probably look at you very shocked. I swear like a sailor and am quite the hard ass about things at work. (I work in theatre.)

As for religion, well being in theatre, we work when everyone else is off. Being very religious in theatre doesn't happen very often, as we often have shows over holidays, of all the religions. (someone staffs that Xmas performance of Nutcracker every year! :LOL) So I tend to assume the other way - that no one i work with is religious.

I do correct people when they are way off. But most people don't tend to assume too much about me. Or they do, and then revise it once they deal with me. :LOL But usually, I don't worry about it too much. I only usually deal with people in the context of work and they know me and we are more concerned about work than anything else. Theatre is the best place I have ever found fro seeing people as they are and for what they can do than based on what they look like or what religions they are. At least on the tech end - the acting end...well, that is a whole different story.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

I used to pass for a boy/young man. then I got pregnant and kept about 40 pounds- nothing like curves to out you as a woman! I miss it.

I live in a bubble,







San Francisco







and I think a lot of people who live here learn the hard way to be careful about assumptions about gender and sexuality. I often pass as straight with straight people and queer with queer people (and of course, since I'm bi, I'm neither.







: (sarcasm))

But one assumption is that I must be 1) educated and 2) from a middle class or above background, and I am neither.

I don't call people about their assumptions on my sexuality/gender id often; doesn't seem worth it. I do send things to my family now and then so that they don't forget I'm a big QUEER and so they need to be cool, not be homophobic. When I am doing political/activist work with people I do usually try to call out the calss and education assumptions. People need to know that those of us from so-called poor backgrounds are still wicked smaaaht.

I suppose I also pass as xtian, but I don't call that out becuse i don't have a defined spiritual id and don't want to unleash my deep deep revulsion and rage about patriarchal religions on random unsuspecting people.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

On the topic of the OP:

I don't know?? Do I pass?? Or are people just assuming that I'm just like them? Do they care enough to even consider that we aren't all the same?? At what point is it my responsablility to out myself as not what they think? And at what point is it their responsability to not assume that everyone is the same?

JMO but I think that some people that say they don't understand why anyone would out themselves really just don't want to deal with it. They'd rather pretend that everyone is just like them.
Of course then you have the folks that don't care because they don't really want to get to know you. It;s just a superficial relationship.

I pretty much pass as straight, white and Chrisitan I guess. But I don't really think I'm passing as Christian since few people would ask. They just assume. I am white, can't change that. It's easy to understand why I pass as straight because I'm married to a man. But I've noticed that my friends that aren't straight never assume someone is just because they are married to someone of the opposite sex.

It does piss me off sometimes that people assume that I'm a racist homophobe just because they are. And I often do explain that is not the case. Too bad I've had to that to my own parents.


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## shantimama (Mar 11, 2002)

My ancestors were all from Scotland and Ireland but I often pass for being Greek or Italian because of my dark colouring - and because of how I like to cook and care for my children:LOL







It cracks me up. I also get it sometimes because of AP - people saw me breastfeeding a toddler and offering hummus and whole wheat pita bread to another child and asked what part of Greece I was from!

I also pass frquently for a conservative Christian because I homeschool and am married to a church minister. If they only knew







: I am Christian but hardly your mainstream type, regardless of denomination. Oh well. I don't usually correct people about my religious beliefs because I don't wear my heart on my sleeve, but I do quietly and strongly state what I believe if someone asks. I always respond to racism, sexism, anything that puts down others - it sometimes confuses people. I am glad for that!


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I pass for "white", except to other asian mutts.







Must be the auburn hair, though that is a giveaway to some folks.

I probably pass for Christian, though I do talk about my buddhist practice when religion is mentioned.

I pass for "not-rich" or at least "frumpy housewife" in the store or at the park, most likely, because I never wear anything but old t-shirts and sweatpants and maybe jeans once in awhile and don't wear makeup, my civic is kind of beat up and my van has an unrepaired ding in the side of it. However, I don't have any financial worries...just no time or inclination towards dressing up and no time to get the cosmetic problems with the cars fixed.

I don't believe in getting in people's face about what I "really am". I mean, really, is it of such drastic importance that the world will stop spinning if their surface impression is proven WRONG? If people ask, I tell. If they are running away in their verbally expressed assumptions, I will correct them. And if people treat me with disrespect in a store because of my appearance, I smile and walk out and don't come back.









Like Piglet, I have had a great many people make total asses of themselves with comments about biracial people or asian people. It used to really piss me off, but now I actually enjoy making them squirm. It helps that all the people in my (adoptive) family that used to make those comments have died now (they didn't know of my ethnic background).


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

Tigerchild...

I could pass for 'part asian' and have actually told people, for example, 'my mother is Chinese' when they have made racist jokes or comments....
Take that!
In Vancouver, and in some suburban areas here around Toronto, derogatory comments about Asians seem almost socially acceptable and so many people don't even seem to realize how racist they are.
What gives?


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Interesting topic.

Can't pass for anything at all ... though sometimes folks think my headcovering is more a hippie thing (as I am partial to rasta/dreadtams and the rest of my clothing is similar) than an Orthodox Jewish thing. Am what I am.










It's a subject near & dear to our hearts. When DH first became religious, he hadn't yet started wearing a yarmulke in public, and there was an article in the NY Times about several people murdered somewhere in Belgium, I believe it was, by a group of skinheads. The article said that they were murdered because particular murdering skinheads thought the victims were Jewish.










The next day DH put on a yarmulke for good. Kind of a warped "don't want 'em killing the wrong folks" logic.

He also has a full beard and very long peyos (sidelocks, I guess is the common term for them) that reach to the middle of his back, which he wears down at home but which he wears as a ponytail when he's at work (he's a public high school teacher). Basically with the reasoning that your standard inner-city public school student can deal much better with a ponytail than with sidelocks.

He's taken the ponytail down at school during relevant discussions in some classes, and it's always been a huge asset to the conversation ... though in a chemistry class it's hard to work in the relevance ... :LOL

And my own haircovering, there are many Jewish women who wear hats, like berets and the like, and they're just not me. So originally (before children) I only wore scarves. Which is immediately more ethnically identifiable ... after kids, though, it's hard, because they yank them off and they're harder to put back on than just slipping up a hat/tam. But still wear them occasionally ...

Also, immediately after 9/11 I didn't wear scarves at all for a while, as I got some nasty comments from folks assuming I was Muslim and apparently that meant I was fair game for abuse.










(muslimamas







)

And yes, along those lines, I do get comments/abuse occasionally from an anti-Semitic angle, but that's never stopped me from the haircovering in any way. This is the Upper West Side, after all (safety in numbers, perhaps?) But in re after 9/11, it was a lot scarier. I live in Manhattan, we were breathing in pulverized building (& other pulverized things







) for a few weeks, and people and emotions were really ... intense.

It's since gotten better







and back to the plain old anti-Semitism at this point.


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## Jentle (Feb 19, 2004)

muslimamas









I thought of another one -- for a long time people would see my pentacle necklace (FIVE pointed star) and ask me about being Jewish.









I corrected them.


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

I've had that happen once, Jentle. I just said "no" and left it at that. Scary htat a business owner can't tell the difference between 5 and 6. I hope she had a good accountant keeping the books.


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## Dakota's Mom (Apr 8, 2003)

My son can pass for a girl. Actually I spend a great deal of time correcting people about that. A lot of people think I'm a quiet middleaged christin heterosexual grandmother . Little do they know that under these "old lady" clothes lurk many piercings, tattoos, and the heart of a lesbian witch. I don't correct them so much as I use my true self to freak people out. They just can't believe who I really am. I am married to a man, but I don't consider myself bi. I identify as lesbian. If this relationship ends, I have no intention of looking for another man.

Kathi


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## chanibell (Sep 25, 2002)

Im AA and when I meet people they comment on, " wow, you have such good grammer" Like I deserve a medal. Of course it from CC people or that,"You arent like some other black people I know" I take this to mean that Im not their version of what a black person should be. I cant go out and get my hair done anywhere. Ive been told " Oh honey we dont do hair like yours". This is before I knew where to get my hair done. I sometimes wonder if I could get maybe a week in a white person's world would I be treated differently, would I get waited on quicker,was it me or did I not get that job b/c? but that such is life. I know its even harder for Black Men







Sad world we live in where you are judged by appearance. Sader even when people dont approach you b/c they are scared of you. Im often on the BlackinJapan.com board and THAT is interesting on reading how Japanese view non Japanese.


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## isleta (Nov 25, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by abimommy_
*My sisters and I "pass" for several different races. When they (my sisters I didn't get to go wwaahhh!!!) were in Egypt people thought they were Egyptian and when they were in Italy they thought they were Italian. We have dark curly hair, dark eyes and tan easily.
is gross.*
This was me-except in Italy France and Spain. In Italy we were at the Vatican and the tour guide asked if anyone was catholic-well, I did not raise my hand and she stopped and said, "aren't you catholic? Italian?" Well, no







: Then, on the plane in the mist of many young americans, they handed me the Italian customs forms! In Spain they thought I was spanish, but in France they thought I was jewish. I also pass for a lady from India.

I too get the well, what are you? And some people have told me-you look white with something mixed in. So, I guess I pass for many nationalities, but when I tell them my true ethnicity, I have actually had people say, but you look...........it does get a little frustrating.

Oh, and while I was livin in Texas I was waitressing and this man asked if I wa Jewish-I said no and he said, "that's what I thought. I did not think there were jews in Texas." Really. How interesting! Well, I do tend to get good and bad remarks about cultures to which I do not belong.

I live in a very conservative city and most think I am married and attend church-they ask about my husband and church. Well, I don't attend a church and I am a single mama. But, I pass. Well, except for my pesky bumpersticker.:LOL


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Because you, an individual, were not Jewish, there are none?









You Isleta were the only possibly Jewish person in the entire state?







:

What a limited world that fellow inhabits!:LOL


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

I think you're defining "passing" diferently from the way I do.. I was taught that passing was deliberately pretending to be something/someone that you're not; that you can't accidentally pass, if you correct people's assumptions you're not passing at all.

I *could* pass for lots of things, but I choose not to. It's a very simple matter for me: To thine own self be true. I could pass for white or black or indian but I don't, because that's not who I am. I could pass for straight or for 16 or for 30 but I don't. I always correct people's assumptions, because while I understand and respect the reasons that people in my position choose to pass they just don't hold any water for me, personally.

I am: multiracial, bisexual, common-law-married, Jewish, curly-haired, free-thinking, breastfeeding, fat, short, wide-footed, opinionated, strong, medium-skinned, big-eyed, apartment-dwelling, low income, pregnancy-planning, body aware, book reading, attachment parenting, liberal, pro-choice, without a degree, 26 years old and a woman. And I'm happy that way. So there.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by eilonwy_
*

I am: multiracial, bisexual, common-law-married, Jewish, curly-haired, free-thinking, breastfeeding, fat, short, wide-footed, opinionated, strong, medium-skinned, big-eyed, apartment-dwelling, low income, pregnancy-planning, body aware, book reading, attachment parenting, liberal, pro-choice, without a degree, 26 years old and a woman. And I'm happy that way. So there.







*










you sound so awesome!!! this just painted in my mind such a vivid mental picture of you. (of course, it may look nothing like you, but it looks good!







)


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

>>I was taught that passing was deliberately pretending to be something/someone that you're not; that you can't accidentally pass

I can't speak for others here, but that's not how I define "passing." When I said above that I pass for Christian I certainly did not mean that I deliberately pretend to be Christian! I meant that people assume I'm Christian, because I'm a white American and I don't "look" like I should belong to some other religion. That assumption is based on a false premise, and it shouldn't be my responsibility to correct everyone. If it were based on a reasonable premise, I might consider it more my responsibility. When someone indicates to me that they assume I'm Christian, I do correct them, but I don't go walking around with a sign that says "not Christian."


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

It's a fine line, Alice.









As a light skinned (for a non-white person), red haired person of multiracial descent, I hear a lot about "passing" as it relates to light skinned black people. It's always been a big issue. When I was born, my mother had a conversation with a black man who was a college professor and the grandfather of one of my half-brothers (long story, very complicated, don't ask). I was sitting in a little seat, about 5 weeks old, and my brother was sitting in another, about three months older than I. My skin was the color of cream, my eyes were still blue, my wisps of hair straight as a stick; my brother was much much darker with dark eyes & curling hair. He told my mother that she should leave my father, take me away and raise me as a white child, and never tell me anything to the contrary. "If she starts to look black later, there's always plastic surgery," he said. My mother couldn't bring herself to do it.

I cannot change what people assume when they look at me. I think that people tend to assume that you are as they/their experience says you are. For example, when someone who is 25 years old and straight and Christian and married sees me, and I'm dressed in a similar fashion and I have my son with me, and I speak the way they speak, they assume that I am similar to them. I don't work particularly hard to dissuade them of these notions, I just gently correct their assumptions. This occasionally leads to conflict, but more often than not to confusion: people really don't understand how I could be different from their perceptions of me. I give them something to think about, at the very least.


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Eilonwy, I do understand your point about the definition of "passing." I guess that was the point of my thread - COULD you pass for something, and because it is possible, DO you correct people? Does that make sense?

I think that my own issue was that I do have people in my life who seem to feel that telling people "personal" things about myself is unnecessary, but if I don't tell those things (which i do not think of as all that personal, anyway), I do feel as though I am passing. And I don't want to pass.

Oh, and your description of yourself was just fabulous, eilonwy. I can totally picture you now!


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## Tuesday (Mar 3, 2003)

//


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Tuesday, I will admit that I never considered a situation such as yours when posting this thread. You really made me think.

I wouldn't call what you do "passing" at all. Your choice to wear a wig and create eyebrows and lashes doesn't sound like an attempt to make others comfortable as much as it seems like a way to make yourself feel comfortable. As far as I am concerned, that is a personal choice. Someone who loses their breats to cnacer may or may not choose to wear prostheses or even get reconstructive surgery, and some may not. I think that's a very personal decision.

In the same way, I feel that exposing anything remotely personal about oneself, or even feeling that something about oneslef IS personal, is an individual decision.

So when I ask if people here feel the obligation to "expose" themselves as they truly are, I am in no way saying that those who choose to be more private are somehow fooling others or are ashamed of themselves. I hope nobody interpreted my post this way.

I was just curious about individual choices and the reasons behind them. The replies to this thread are really fascinating, and even more so because of the unexpectedness of many of the replies.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

But that's exactly what passing is. Like I said, I understand the reasons that people choose to do it, and I personally decide not to. Teusday has made a decision to pass for something she's not, and that's her own decision to make.


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## littlecurvieme (Mar 15, 2002)

I really agree Luna! I think this is one of the best threads that I have ever read on MDC. Thanks for starting it!









Angela


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## 15yrsbetweenboys (Aug 11, 2003)

Ok-I will bite, mostly because I am totally different than other posters:

I have often been though gay or bi (not) simply because of my hairstyle or color (butch cut dyed fire engine red hehe at one point)and "in your face" outgoing personality









I often am assumed to be a uneducated, welfare mama because of the way I dress (raggedy t shirts and jeans mostly-I am not much for material goods LOL), and talk (very hillbilly-or in my case "hill William LOL) in reality I am an educated self sufficent (though really poor anyway LOL) single mama who teaches college and has my own business

My personal peeve is when people assume that because I am white I am racist










that burns my arse! I really like to point out that I am NOT racist, nor do I condone racist behavior (or remain quiet for that matter) and that I feel that racist behavior is unjust, immoral and downright ignorant no matter who (race, religion etc) is doing it

But, I agree that we all tend to make assumptions upon first appearances-that is the nature of the beast

Shan


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## attachmentfeminist (Mar 26, 2004)

I am 5/8 Native American. My father was Cheyenne, my mother a large part Iriquois, and the rest scotch/irish, which is what is prominent in herself and me. However, to see me with my family, I'm the very odd one out. My son is olive skinned, classic native look, as are all 4 of my other siblings, and we have the same parents!

Of course, looking at just me, everyone assumes I am your average, run-of-the-mill Irish girl.

Nobody assumes I'm Christian, though, because I'm too damn outspoken about my beliefs. (I don't believe in organized religion)

And I recently found out from several people I work with that people assume I'm married! This came as a huge shock, since I had DS so young (18) and was treated like a leper at the hospital where I birthed, and because the single mom thing is such a huge part of who I am. I guess I just always put out the image of capability, I've never had it in me to be weak, and people who don't know many single moms just don't expect that to come from us.

It was funny that people I've been working so close with for so many months, none of them knew how young I am (youngest person in my department at not-quite-21) or that I'm single until last week!


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