# Another CPS thread



## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Please have the patience to read this... any tips would be very much appreciated.

I have two kids, the last one was born unassisted. I have dual citizenship, and my children have the right to triple citizenship - my two, plus the citizenship of the country they were born in, by birth. I am a single mother by choice.

Sometime back, I initiated the procedure for my son to obtain my other citizenship. The country in question is one that supports homebirths, but midwife assisted homebirths. I had no trouble in getting citizenship for my daughter, when she was born three years ago. However, this time - despite my son already having one citizenship - the embassy in question started doubting that my son was my son, and causing trouble over UC and not vaxxing. (For the other UC-ers here, their question "but that's impossible, who cut the cord if nobody was there" must be ridiculous







). I had a hearing today.

The embassy in question wants me to carry out a DNA analysis to prove my son is my son, which I am in the process of doing. They also want to send the LOCAL social services to go check out my apartment, to see that the conditions are fit for having children living in the house, and more specifically, for birth. The country I am dealing with has very specific rules over what conditions need to be fulfilled for a homebirth, while the local country I am living in doesn't do homebirths at all, but the conditions in their hospitals are absolutely APPALING. My house is definitely cleaner than the local hospital, at all times.

However, I am absolutely very worried. The country I live in mainly has never heard of the word "crunchy", and is very unsupportive of alternative lifestyles. My lawyer is still working on everything, but I don't want to blindly rely on him. My gut tells me NOT to let social services in to my house in any case, at all. At some point they mentioned they would send round a local police patrol unit "to confirm a birth to place in my house". WTH!? OF COURSE, I did clean up after the birth!?!?! They also want to force me to vax, which I will do if the alternative is them trying to take my children.

So, what do I do now? I have already called someone to professionally clean my house in case they get a warrant, I want everything to be absolutely sparkling clean. What else?


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

The only part I am sure of if you are in the USA they cannot force you to vax at all and they cant take your kids if you refuse to do so.

The other parts I have no idea.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Honey...I have NO idea what to tell you here. This is very tricky....I couldn't read and not post, so I'm here to give







s

I share your gut feeling that letting social services inside your house is bad news...I just feel like that opens a can of worms. I super duper agree with your contracting a professional to come in and super clean your house, though, that makes a lot of sense to me...you never know.

I also agree that blindly following your lawyer may not be the greatest...but I think the best piece of advice that ANYONE could give you, is to make sure you are working with a lawyer who is an EXPERT when it comes to this type of law, family law, etc can be very creepy....lots of ins and outs and tricky navigation for someone who doesn't know exactly what they're doing.

Beyond that....man, I have no idea what to tell you. I'm so sorry you have to deal with this situation. Is NOT getting this citizenship for him a possibility? I mean, is it something you NEED to have for him?

GL babe....this sounds like a gigantic PIA...I'm so sorry this is happening to you.


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## HarperRose (Feb 22, 2007)

What country are you trying to get citizenship with? I'm not sure why my question is relevant, it just popped in my head.

I'm really confused about all the hoops you're being forced to jump through.

If I wasn't planning to live in that country, I'd say forget it. I don't need citizenship to a place that's so freaked out about how I live my private life.

I also UC'd -- trying to get ds2's birth cert was a real pain i nthe butt. We live in Texas, USA and while it was relatively pain-free, comapred to what you're delaing with, it was still an ordeal. The quesiton of who cut the cord was hilarious. EVERYONE asked that!!!

I started asking, "Dh. Who else? What is a doctor or midwife going to do that I can't do?"








I feel your pain!


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Most countries allow citizenship based on descent. So if you can prove the child is yours, then shouldnt that be sufficient to get citizenship? I know for Australia, you have a lifetime to do this. Other countries have limits, like 7 years. In any case, i'd get the dna test anyway.(the prove the child is yours-groan) Then forget the whole thing for a few years and try again.
Dont let them investigate your house. Just drop the whole thing.
If the child is yours, that is all you should need. I dont understand why you need to prove you are a fit parent, or that you even have to be the custodial parent.

So i say, forget the whole thing, and try again later. (if thats possible)
..in the meantime, get more legal advice...but still, bottom line is bottom line isnt it? Citizenship based on descent??


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## ashleyhaugh (Jun 23, 2005)

why do they care what your house in another country looks like? that just seems crazy

i cant help, but just wanted to send hugs and wish you luck


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## expatmommy (Nov 7, 2006)

Are you trying to get citizenship for your son from the country you currently live in? Or citizenship for a different country, via the embassy where you are living now?

I'm pretty well versed in citizenship issues, and I've never heard of a country requiring a home visit to assess home suitability as a measure for citizenship eligibility. That sounds fishy to me. Whether or not your home was suitable for homebirth is a moot point now, given your son is already born. These things happen.

Any country is going to require some sort of proof that he is in fact your son. If the country you live in has no mechanism for obtaining a birth certificate if a child is born outside of a hospital, then a DNA test is a reasonable way for them to determine his status.

Are you always going to live where you are now? In most countries, it is possible to apply for citizenship months or years after a child is born. I probably would hold off on applying, unless for some reason your son's quality of life is affected.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Way too many details not quite revealed to offer any advice, if I had any worth offering in the first place. But I am curious to see how this turns out.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Answering some questions -

I am sorry for not giving all the details, this is not so much because I want to conceal my identity on a public forum (I say way too much on here any way







), but because I think there might be some kind of problem in publicizing details of an open case. Hope you understand that.

Country A is my father's country. I already obtained the citizenship of this country for my children without much hassle. Country B is my mother's country. This is the country that is causing my trouble at the moment. Country C is the country we live in, and the country my kids were born in.

Yes, country B is threatening to send round social services and/or police of country C. The embassy officer first said she could "send round a local police patrol to check whether a birth had indeed taken place in my house", followed by saying that she would send round social services of country C to check if living conditions were acceptable, when I pointed out that a police patrol would not find anything as I had obviously cleaned up the birth mess from a birth four months ago... well, four months ago







.

Re the vax issue, I actually checked country B's laws, and indeed I have no obligation to vax. However, it seemed like the officer do anything to be a total PITA, for reasons I could speculate about but that would be pointless.

I offered babe's birth cert from country A as part of the proof that he is my son. They didn't even want to look at it. Neither did they look at my one U/S, or the photos taken straight after birth. I offered they call country A's embassy to check with them, which they didn't respond to. At the end, they told me to come back when I had completed the DNA analysis. Indeed, they did complain I did not show up a few days after the birth, as is the norm in country B. However, they did accept that I had no obligation to do so, as my child had already acquired citizenship A. I completely accept that sending social services from another country might not even be in their power. My lawyer does think that it is possible they will come, even if I decide to withdraw my application for citizenship B. Country C is pretty nasty, and all I see is them trying to take my kids away... I do want citzenship B for my son, as it will allow him to travel more freely in the future, and to live in EU countries if he wants to.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

From these details, and from my totally ignorant stance on international laws and regulations, I would assume that if Country B was/is going to send police and/or social services, that withdrawing citizenship application would not stop them, and perhaps make your application later on harder.

I would seek out the laws regarding social services and vaxing in Country C. I would think that no matter what Country B does, the laws of Country C would be the ones that really matter in this issue.

Hope you get this all worked out fast. Perhaps the DNA thing is all that will actually be required.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty* 
From these details, and from my totally ignorant stance on international laws and regulations, I would assume that if Country B was/is going to send police and/or social services, that withdrawing citizenship application would not stop them, and perhaps make your application later on harder.

I would seek out the laws regarding social services and vaxing in Country C. I would think that no matter what Country B does, the laws of Country C would be the ones that really matter in this issue.

Hope you get this all worked out fast. Perhaps the DNA thing is all that will actually be required.

I am also semi-ignorant in these matters, as are all the officials confused. Three countries + UC = total confusion! Vaxes are compulsory in country C, but as far as I am able to make out the requirement is that the whole vax schedule is completed by the time the child starts school. I am willing to go with a delayed schedule if need be, but definitely not with the locally produced vaxes. I am afraid you are right re the police/SS thing. I also even think that withdrawal of the application may make them more suspicious. However, I do not know whether country C would have any authority to actually do anything about the situation, or take kids that do not have their citizenship (though they have the right to receive it) into their care. Which is, let's face it, the thing I am ultimately so concerned about.

It also occurred to me to call country A's embassy to inform them of the situation, and to ask for help, as my son is their citizen already.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommytoC* 
Geez, is this ever confusing!

Would it be easier for you to plan a trip to Country B and get this taken care of while *in* Country B? It seems like it might just be easier to make the trip and hop over to a clerk's office and it's that living in Country C is what's causing the problem for Country B. I bet if you were in Country B, this would have been resolved already. . .

You know that I hadn't even thought of that? That sounds like the right thing to do!


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## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

Your DS is 4 months old. Do you need to apply to country B for citizenship within 6 months, 1 year, or just anytime before your DS 18th birthday? Varies from country to country. If you can wait, skip it. You will have the genetic test. And if you come when your DS is 12 yo, whether you gave birth at a hospital, in your home, in your jacuzzi or on the planet neptune is going to look pretty irrelevant at that point. Their passports are not going to be a huge problem right now, since they travel with you. Unless you want to visit say Iran one month and Israel the next, in which case two passports becomes necessary.


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## Aufilia (Jul 31, 2007)

I have no idea on the citizenship issues... but... did you tell them you intentionally UC? Because people have unintentional UC sometimes and what can the law do about that, really? I mean, do people not have babies in cars on the way to the hosptail in County B?







If you haven't already told them it was intentional maybe you could play up that angle...


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## luv-my-boys (Dec 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *expatmommy* 
I've never heard of a country requiring a home visit to assess home suitability as a measure for citizenship eligibility. That sounds fishy to me. Whether or not your home was suitable for homebirth is a moot point now, given your son is already born. These things happen.

.


That was my first thought as well. What does the suitability of where you *birth( even relevent at this point. I mean for all things possible you could have been planning on going to a hospital and not made it there.

I personally wouldnt allow social services or police to *visit* my home on any grounds of doing a well check. That only opens you up to concern for the country you are currently living in, I mean as a social worker I think I would be concerned if another country asked me to do a well check on home? why? what do they fear/know? what will I see? I think your first route should be the DNA test and paperwork showing your citzenship to that country. I would think that 1) proving that indeed this child is yours 2) you have citizen ship to that country should suffice.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luv-my-boys* 
That was my first thought as well. What does the suitability of where you *birth( even relevent at this point. I mean for all things possible you could have been planning on going to a hospital and not made it there.

I personally wouldnt allow social services or police to *visit* my home on any grounds of doing a well check. That only opens you up to concern for the country you are currently living in, I mean as a social worker I think I would be concerned if another country asked me to do a well check on home? why? what do they fear/know? what will I see? I think your first route should be the DNA test and paperwork showing your citzenship to that country. I would think that 1) proving that indeed this child is yours 2) you have citizen ship to that country should suffice.

I agree, and I think that I will have different issues altogether in the case a social worker does come round, and I let them in. Then, my issue will no longer be just with country B, but with country C as well. I am of the opinion that social workers can always find something objectionable if they want to.

If I make a trip to country B now, that would physically eliminate the possibility of me allowing a social worker into my house in country C, kwim? Since I don't live in country B, I'd have to do it at a certain county in their capital. I have done this myself, prior to having kids. If I am there, there will be lots of people around rather than just the small number of officials in an embassy. I have a feeling that would be much easier somehow.

I did tell them I intentionally UC-ed. I told this to country A as well, and they caused no problems. I hate the fact that this is getting so complicated and I am worried sick. I do feel that UC is not something I should have to hide, though.

At some point I asked them whether I should pop in the embassy to say I am planning to UC if I ever have another baby. Whether it would be proof enough for THEM to see me pregnant. Their answer was, "we don't mind you having a homebirth but you should at least call a midwife to be present". If I could change my mind and lie about UC, I might just have done so. It is too late now though.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllisonR* 
Your DS is 4 months old. Do you need to apply to country B for citizenship within 6 months, 1 year, or just anytime before your DS 18th birthday? Varies from country to country. If you can wait, skip it. You will have the genetic test. And if you come when your DS is 12 yo, whether you gave birth at a hospital, in your home, in your jacuzzi or on the planet neptune is going to look pretty irrelevant at that point. Their passports are not going to be a huge problem right now, since they travel with you. Unless you want to visit say Iran one month and Israel the next, in which case two passports becomes necessary.

Application can be done whenever - I acquired this citizenship in my teens. I thought having two passports was cool







. But I have applied already now, and I am not sure withdrawing application would get rid of potential problems.

Telling me that the rules and laws are different than they actually are makes me so angry. It does not, in fact, matter at all where I give birth. In registering my child, I do see how they would care that it is my child they are registering







. BUT... I am more certain that my son is my son than anyone giving birth in a hospital could ever be







.

DNA testing is EXPENSIVE. But if it makes the whole problem go away, of course I have no problem with paying.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
Honey...I have NO idea what to tell you here. This is very tricky....I couldn't read and not post, so I'm here to give







s

I share your gut feeling that letting social services inside your house is bad news...I just feel like that opens a can of worms. I super duper agree with your contracting a professional to come in and super clean your house, though, that makes a lot of sense to me...you never know.

I also agree that blindly following your lawyer may not be the greatest...but I think the best piece of advice that ANYONE could give you, is to make sure you are working with a lawyer who is an EXPERT when it comes to this type of law, family law, etc can be very creepy....lots of ins and outs and tricky navigation for someone who doesn't know exactly what they're doing.

Beyond that....man, I have no idea what to tell you. I'm so sorry you have to deal with this situation. Is NOT getting this citizenship for him a possibility? I mean, is it something you NEED to have for him?

GL babe....this sounds like a gigantic PIA...I'm so sorry this is happening to you.

Thank you for your hugs and support


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## AutumnAir (Jun 10, 2008)

Okay, I only know one of the countries involved in this but if I were you I'd certainly contact Country A's embassy to explain the situation and ask for help. As you and the kids have all got citizenship A already that seems like the best country as if anything goes wrong it will be them you will be going to for help anyway, right?

I also think going to Country B and doing this there might not be a bad idea either, though I would look into it a bit more before definitely deciding to do it. I know of Country C and think the situation there is quite similar to where I"m living at the moment, and my very strong feeling on that would be to absolutely not let their version of CPS get involved. Just the bureaucracy alone could end up making your life incredibly difficult, and as you said it's very easy for them to 'find a problem' if that's what they want to do.















This must be so stressful for you.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AutumnAir* 
Okay, I only know one of the countries involved in this but if I were you I'd certainly contact Country A's embassy to explain the situation and ask for help. As you and the kids have all got citizenship A already that seems like the best country as if anything goes wrong it will be them you will be going to for help anyway, right?

I also think going to Country B and doing this there might not be a bad idea either, though I would look into it a bit more before definitely deciding to do it. I know of Country C and think the situation there is quite similar to where I"m living at the moment, and my very strong feeling on that would be to absolutely not let their version of CPS get involved. Just the bureaucracy alone could end up making your life incredibly difficult, and as you said it's very easy for them to 'find a problem' if that's what they want to do.















This must be so stressful for you.

Thanks, I also think your country of residence is very similar in its attitudes. If we all had country C's citizenship, they would almost certainly be taking the kids into care just for the sake of it. To show me that I can't life my life how I want to, but how they tell me I should. I did nothing wrong and do not want to do anything drastic, but I am pretty scared. I have hired one of the best lawyers in the country, and I think I will need him. Not only are they anti-UC, they are also anti- anything out of the mainstream, including single mothers. Generally, they are pretty misogynist. Dealing with country B's bureaucracy without the unpleasant add-ons of local CPS seems much more appealing. Unfortunately, I do think they will just come round if the embassy calls them and tells them to do so. I will not let anyone in without a warrant.


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## MCR (Nov 20, 2001)

I'd move myself and the kids to country A, they sound the most reasonable.
Good luck with the citizenship thing. It's a tangle of rules and regulations isn't it.
My family are all dual nationals, if we added a third it would get too confusing.
I hope they were just trying to be awkward saying they'd send CPS, and they don't do it.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I would have the DNA test without complaint - they probably just want to ensure you aren't a baby napper taking a kidnapped baby to another country, and I'd claim the UC was unintentional. Personally.

Good luck!


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## calpurnia (Sep 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I would have the DNA test without complaint - they probably just want to ensure you aren't a baby napper taking a kidnapped baby to another country, and I'd claim the UC was unintentional. Personally.

yeah. this is where i am leaning too. i would get the DNA test done - it may be expensive but frankly i'd be throwing money at this problem by now - & hope that that stops the whole fuss in its tracks. i would consider taking the DNA results & whatever documentation is necessary direct to country B & applying for your son's citizenship there. i would strongly avoid anything that means getting country C more involved. it sounds like the country B embassy in country C, where you initially applied for son's passpo (have i got this right?!) just is taking a personal interest, kwim, since there cannot be any regulations on where a citizen can give birth outside of country B, nor, surely, can they have someone taken into care - sounds like you've raised the warning flags of someone at country B embassy & that's why they are talking about country C cps etc. give them DNA results & anything else but don't let CPS get involved if you can help it - perhaps produce a reference or something from a respectable friend - a teacher/lawyer, something like that, to verify that your son is yours, you received prenatal care, you are an attentive mother...?


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *calpurnia* 
yeah. this is where i am leaning too. i would get the DNA test done - it may be expensive but frankly i'd be throwing money at this problem by now - & hope that that stops the whole fuss in its tracks. i would consider taking the DNA results & whatever documentation is necessary direct to country B & applying for your son's citizenship there. i would strongly avoid anything that means getting country C more involved. it sounds like the country B embassy in country C, where you initially applied for son's passpo (have i got this right?!) just is taking a personal interest, kwim, since there cannot be any regulations on where a citizen can give birth outside of country B, nor, surely, can they have someone taken into care - sounds like you've raised the warning flags of someone at country B embassy & that's why they are talking about country C cps etc. give them DNA results & anything else but don't let CPS get involved if you can help it - perhaps produce a reference or something from a respectable friend - a teacher/lawyer, something like that, to verify that your son is yours, you received prenatal care, you are an attentive mother...?

Yes, you have got everything right. DNA test is on its way - that is, I'm waiting for the money to come into my regular account, from my savings account. Of course, I am more than willing to spend whatever it take IF that were to solve the problem. I asked them straight, whether they would give me a birth cert and put him in my passport without further hassle once I got the DNA tests. I told them I would go to wherever they tell me to get the DNA test. (They advised a certain lab for bloodwork. When I called them, it turned out that this lab does not do DNA analysis at all! I then found out about one other lab through the internet.)

Still, they said that they did not guarantee at all that they would cause no further problems after a DNA analysis, which is the major reason I have not done it already - if that said it would solve all problems, I'd have done it last century, kwim? Joe Biden is visiting the country today so nobody is working, but my lawyer is supposed to go there tomorrow to get more info as to whether or not a DNA test would definitely solve the problem, and whether the lab in question would be acceptable for them, since the one they proposed does not do the test.

In the meantime, I have done extensive reading into the laws of both country B and country C. Unless UC and non vaxing can be considered severe medical neglect, they have no business hassling me. UC, or birth choices in any shape or form (apart from abortion right for a woman) are not detailed in the law of country C. I am pretty certain that, with their attitudes, they would, in fact, argue that UC is severe medical neglect. But with no foundation, except that nobody does it here. One glance at whatever random L&D facility would be enough for any sane person - even one who is normally opposed to UC - to conclude that giving birth in a clean home, with adequate birth supplies, is MUCH more safe.

I am not going to allow local SS to search my house to see if there is anything else they can find that they don't like - which they would, of course. One thing I don't like about the law in country C, is that they always leave space for interpretation by some bureaucrat. the law lists what constitutes neglect, and then adds "and any other form of neglect that the court decides upon, not listed in this law. And how am I supposed to argue with that? So yes, I do not want to deal with country C's sexist, outdated and doctor-worshipping institutions.

But, I can't fully grasp the potential consequences of just heading to country B to solve it either. I have had other unpleasant experiences with their embassy staff at their embassy in another country before, and they are very "follow the rules". Another possibility would be to go to country A. I have just started a small business here though, and starting again would be very problematic.


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## mama_mojo (Jun 5, 2005)

I only hear the bad stories that make the news, so this response might not be at all reasonable. I know of two EU countries that have taken custody of children with seemingly less cause than you have "against" you. Really, do look into the climate of Country B before you go. I cannot imagine... Okay, no fear mongering. Be cautious.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_mojo* 
I only hear the bad stories that make the news, so this response might not be at all reasonable. I know of two EU countries that have taken custody of children with seemingly less cause than you have "against" you. Really, do look into the climate of Country B before you go. I cannot imagine... Okay, no fear mongering. Be cautious.

Thanks. Can I ask you which countries? And what the allegations were?

Another thought that occurred to me is - if I have trouble while in country C, I would be entitled to seek assistance from country A, as this is the only country the whole family currently has citizenship of. If I do go to country B, I will definitely no longer be able to do that. Right?

I'm in way over my head here. If I could do it all again, I would still UC, but claim it was an oops. I have not been to country B for quite a while now. I am out of touch. I have gotten used to country C's "everything is possible" climate. I just forgot that "everything is possible" only applies to male, corrupt politicians, and not to UC-ing solo moms







:.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

And... let's say that I was able to find a doctor/midwife who would turn up and give a witness statement that they saw me and the baby like... the morning following birth or something like that. This would not technically be true. Would something like that solve the problem or just create more of them? (Eh... ... disclaimer: I am not thinking of doing this AT ALL, just trying to have a completely theoretical discussion here, of course, I would never do something like that, etc)


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## calpurnia (Sep 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
Another thought that occurred to me is - if I have trouble while in country C, I would be entitled to seek assistance from country A, as this is the only country the whole family currently has citizenship of. If I do go to country B, I will definitely no longer be able to do that. Right?

not quite clear what you mean about this. if you were claiming asylum from trouble in country c, then yes, you have to seek asylum in the first country you come to. so, eg, if you are fleeing persecution in sierra leone, & arrive in italy, then go on to france, you cannot claim asylum in france. you should have claimed it in italy, because that offers a safe place. BUT if you are all citizens of country A, i don't see why you couldn't go there from country b. you don't need permission or need to seek asylum from a country you are entitled to enter at will.

if you mean to call in country A as back up against country B whilst residing in country B over troubles in country C i think they most certainly won't get involved.


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## calpurnia (Sep 26, 2004)

also, i'm not really clear what exactly country B are objecting to & on what grounds. i would get your lawyer to ascertain that asap - ie explicitly the details of the "case against you" so you know what you are working with.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *calpurnia* 
if you mean to call in country A as back up against country B whilst residing in country B over troubles in country C i think they most certainly won't get involved.

Something like that. I mean that, if social services would come knocking on my door, here in country C, I could tell them - sorry, I've got nothing to do with your social services. If you have any issues, I am going to call embassy A to assist, since you can't attempt to take citizens of country A into your care. Right?

Since my lawyer isn't working today, I'm just having thousands of probably useless random thoughts like that







.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

And of course, thank you si much for the tips, everyone! I really appreciate your input.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *calpurnia* 
also, i'm not really clear what exactly country B are objecting to & on what grounds. i would get your lawyer to ascertain that asap - ie explicitly the details of the "case against you" so you know what you are working with.

They claim that, because of my UC, I have insufficient proof that the child I am now claiming citizenship for is actually mine. From the conversation, I very much got the impression that that they did, in fact, believe me but a) didn't agree with my choices and either thought that I was actually medically neglecting my child because of the UC, and the vax issue, or were just annoyed I did not "follow the rules" b) feel the need to protect themselves legally, in case this was in fact some kind of illegal adoption or something.


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## mama_mojo (Jun 5, 2005)

IRRC, Belgium and Germany regarding homeschooling.


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## expatmommy (Nov 7, 2006)

Are any of you citizens of the country you currently reside in? What passport did you enter that country under? If you entered on a country A or B's passport, then they should be who you seek protection from. If you are a citizen of country C, where you reside, then regardless of the other passports you hold you are bound by their laws & the other countries don't have to offer you protection.

If your infant son already has the citizenship for the country he was born in, then he is bound by that country's laws regardless of what other passports he holds.

Countries generally don't look fondly upon citizens who cherry pick benefits from the different countries to which they hold passports if things aren't going there way in one of their countries of citizenship. (Not suggesting you are doing this at all, just that it is something they watch for.)


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *expatmommy* 
Countries generally don't look fondly upon citizens who cherry pick benefits from the different countries to which they hold passports if things aren't going there way in one of their countries of citizenship. (Not suggesting you are doing this at all, just that it is something they watch for.)

I am more than aware, as this is something I have definitely done in the past :0


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## Litcrit (Feb 23, 2009)

As a citizen of country C (hi!







), I can offer some anecdotal stuff:

- oops UC happens here a lot, especially in the rural areas. UC was the norm until just a few decades ago - my father-in-law was born like that. Most bureaucrats that would give you a hard time probably have parents who were born by UC. There are many stories of 'poor' women having to UC because the stupid hospital wouldn't accept them yet (they don't know how lucky they are). None of those kids get taken away, no one dreams of it. I know of a story where the baby was born in the field, the dad cut the umbilical cord with a scythe, the ambulance came to check on mom and baby, and that was the end of the story.

- they will be afraid if you tell them you and your kids are foreign citizens. They most probably won't mess with you.

- children in 'country C' live in cardboard boxes and still don't get taken away. It's nearly impossible to take a child away, even from a citizen. Drugs, alcohol, physical abuse, can be ascertained, and still little happens. Parental rights are almost impossible to take away or relinquish - that's why adoption is almost impossible here, except when the parents are dead, and even then it's years of paperwork

If you need ANY help with the bureaucrats, even just trying to explain to them in a way people from my country can begin to understand, or giving you a character reference, or praising your mothering, I'm here!








-


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Hey, great to "see" you! I was wondering how you were! I know that people live in cardboard boxes, that the country C has no problems with taking those carboard houses down at a few minutes notices, thereby leaving their residents on the streets with no problems. But aren't those double standards - like, they don't care about THOSE people, because of their ethnicity? While they would, probably, care more about a person of the majority ethnicity living in those conditions?

Do you think they would, actually, send round social services and then undertake any action? If country B did inform them about the situation - I guess I will find out tomorrow - I am sure they won't mention that we also have yet another citizenship. Being sent there by what they perceive to be my home country, they might even by more aggressive, thinking that they have a duty to fulfill the wishes of the country informing them?

Have you ever dealt with SS in any way at all? Do you know anything about them?

Eh... I feel really petty for asking this too, but - do you know anywhere that will do a cheaper DNA analysis?









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Litcrit* 
As a citizen of country C (hi!







), I can offer some anecdotal stuff:

- oops UC happens here a lot, especially in the rural areas. UC was the norm until just a few decades ago - my father-in-law was born like that. Most bureaucrats that would give you a hard time probably have parents who were born by UC. There are many stories of 'poor' women having to UC because the stupid hospital wouldn't accept them yet (they don't know how lucky they are). None of those kids get taken away, no one dreams of it. I know of a story where the baby was born in the field, the dad cut the umbilical cord with a scythe, the ambulance came to check on mom and baby, and that was the end of the story.

- they will be afraid if you tell them you and your kids are foreign citizens. They most probably won't mess with you.

- children in 'country C' live in cardboard boxes and still don't get taken away. It's nearly impossible to take a child away, even from a citizen. Drugs, alcohol, physical abuse, can be ascertained, and still little happens. Parental rights are almost impossible to take away or relinquish - that's why adoption is almost impossible here, except when the parents are dead, and even then it's years of paperwork

If you need ANY help with the bureaucrats, even just trying to explain to them in a way people from my country can begin to understand, or giving you a character reference, or praising your mothering, I'm here!








-


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

FWIW, your comments do make me feel a bit better... I am very much freaking out, and probably losing the ability to put things into perspective


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Oh and... do you know where I can find info on the vax issue? So sorry to be bothering you!


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

My advice? Drop the whole issue. This isnt worth letting CPS in over. Try again later. Right now, they are children and go where you go, no problem. Wait a few years the apply again for him. Does he have a birth certificate? This seems ridiculous to me and a huge invastion of privacy and I wouldnt allow it. Is there any reason apply for citizenship cant wait a few years? Or 18?


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## GalateaDunkel (Jul 22, 2005)

From the little I can make out of the confusing details and unnamed countries, you are probably best off letting the whole matter drop. And I say that as a dual citizen, mother of a dual citizen, and eligible for triple/quadruple citizenship in the next few years. Without knowing which countries you are talking about, it seems that the benefits of getting it all done right now outweigh the disadvantages. To be perfectly blunt, countries B and C are obviously cooperating to investigate you. Don't miss the forest for the trees. They obviously suspect you are up to something. I'm not saying you are - although your comment about having played countries off each other in the past gives me pause - but be wise. Unless you have a very serious reason, relating to personal security or such, that you have to do this NOW, in which case you have problems that are beyond our pay scale here on MDC... let it go. Your son can do it when he's older.

Although it may seem that it's better to have as much status in many different countries as possible, reality is that when you create ambiguity around which nationality you are, you make yourself more vulnerable in international disputes, because it gives them an opening to say "she's not ours, she's yours." Especially if you have a history of playing them off each other; they don't appreciate that and it may become a game of hot potato with you as the potato. Pick one country - preferably the most politically free one, with the best ability to advocate for its citizens - and stick with it. Don't worry about the others unless your plans radically change and you want to settle there or something. They take this stuff pretty seriously. My sister once lost a job at the U.S. State Dept. just for identifying herself as a dual citizen of our mother's country, which is a totally U.S.-friendly, Western country with millions of dual citizens here. It wasn't that they object to dual citizenship as such - but the fact that she wasn't content, while in America, to just call herself an American, made them suspicious.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Eh... When I mentioned picking and choosing benefits, I didn't mean anything more serious than knowing that I will pass better in some countries using the passport I was now trying to get for my son. Simply because it is a smaller country, and a less prolific country politically. My dual nationality allowed me to travel more easily, which has helped me a lot work-wise. Nothing icky, but, like with your sister, I can see why that might make some embassy official uncomfortable.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

I mean that, if social services would come knocking on my door, here in country C, I could tell them - sorry, I've got nothing to do with your social services. If you have any issues, I am going to call embassy A to assist, since you can't attempt to take citizens of country A into your care. Right?
But if you are citizens of country C, living in country C, they would have jurisdiction.


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## Litcrit (Feb 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
Hey, great to "see" you! I was wondering how you were! I know that people live in cardboard boxes, that the country C has no problems with taking those carboard houses down at a few minutes notices, thereby leaving their residents on the streets with no problems. But aren't those double standards - like, they don't care about THOSE people, because of their ethnicity? While they would, probably, care more about a person of the majority ethnicity living in those conditions?

Do you think they would, actually, send round social services and then undertake any action? If country B did inform them about the situation - I guess I will find out tomorrow - I am sure they won't mention that we also have yet another citizenship. Being sent there by what they perceive to be my home country, they might even by more aggressive, thinking that they have a duty to fulfill the wishes of the country informing them?

Have you ever dealt with SS in any way at all? Do you know anything about them?

Eh... I feel really petty for asking this too, but - do you know anywhere that will do a cheaper DNA analysis?









Wasn't in the city, sorry









I honestly don't know. Growing up, I knew a lot of kids of the 'majority' ethnicity growing in appalling circumstances and nothing happened... I've heard of social services dropping by, chatting with the kids and if the kids didn't seem to be terrified of losing their lives at the hands of their parents, nothing happened...

Never had any experience with SS, they don't seem to be too active. I wonder if country B can get them to move at all - and all because of having a baby at home? I'd guess they were too lazy for that.

I wouldn't be worried, really, honestly - with your country A citizenship and your intelligence and research they're bound to be apprehensive.

Also, doctor-worshipping as it is, the country has also been in a stir lately because of the 'Majka Hrabrost' initiative. I'd venture a guess that if you pointed them to that as the source of informastion on the lack of safety in the delivery hospitals, the minister of health would personally back you.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
Oh and... do you know where I can find info on the vax issue? So sorry to be bothering you!

No, but it's not that big a deal. You need the kids vaxed to enroll them in school - at age 7. When you're a citizen and have medical insurance, they actually call you to remind you, politely and gently - but you're not even that.


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## expatmommy (Nov 7, 2006)

If you are living as a permanent resident in Country C, you are subject to their laws and regulations. It is unlikely that Country A would offer you consular assistance if you were being pursued under the valid laws or conditions of Country C. You are choosing to live there, work there & therefore subject yourself to the laws of that country.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Litcrit* 
Wasn't in the city, sorry









I honestly don't know. Growing up, I knew a lot of kids of the 'majority' ethnicity growing in appalling circumstances and nothing happened... I've heard of social services dropping by, chatting with the kids and if the kids didn't seem to be terrified of losing their lives at the hands of their parents, nothing happened...

Never had any experience with SS, they don't seem to be too active. I wonder if country B can get them to move at all - and all because of having a baby at home? I'd guess they were too lazy for that.

I wouldn't be worried, really, honestly - with your country A citizenship and your intelligence and research they're bound to be apprehensive.

Also, doctor-worshipping as it is, the country has also been in a stir lately because of the 'Majka Hrabrost' initiative. I'd venture a guess that if you pointed them to that as the source of informastion on the lack of safety in the delivery hospitals, the minister of health would personally back you.

No, but it's not that big a deal. You need the kids vaxed to enroll them in school - at age 7. When you're a citizen and have medical insurance, they actually call you to remind you, politely and gently - but you're not even that.

I was planning to use that. I was even thinking of contacting the woman about this whole issue, so she has the opportunity to share a horror story of something other than a hospital birth, but she'll obviously just be interested if local authorities do get involved. Perhaps she could do something to point me to laws etc though, although it all seems to be covered by the family act.

What you say about vaxing is what I always understood, but now that I am trying to find that written down somewhere, I can't seem to find it. It is not covered by the family act, other than it saying that parents have a duty to care for the health of the child. It also says that parents have a right to bring up their kids in accordance with their beliefs and values.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Oh, and Litcrit, what do you think about the sentence "A woman freely decides about birth"? (In the family act) Could that feasibly be interpreted as "a woman freely decides where and how she is going to give birth", as opposed to "a woman freely decides whether she wants to give birth or not" (as in protecting the right to abortion)?


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## Litcrit (Feb 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
Oh, and Litcrit, what do you think about the sentence "A woman freely decides about birth"? (In the family act) Could that feasibly be interpreted as "a woman freely decides where and how she is going to give birth", as opposed to "a woman freely decides whether she wants to give birth or not" (as in protecting the right to abortion)?

Can you PM me the original? I'm guessing that's just there because of abortion, but it doesn't say anywhere where or how a woman HAS to give birth, does it?

And, as UC was pretty much the norm until relatively recently, I doubt if they COULD have imposed such a law in the meantime. One of the things the sadistic midwives in the hospitals like to scream at laboring women is "Shut up, you spoiled brat, my mother gave birth under a tree and continued picking fruit, and you're whining!" I don't think birthing in a hospital could just be imposed by anyone, it's too recent a development.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Done. Of course the %!^&[email protected] lawyer didn't do anything today, so I am still waiting.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Litcrit* 
it doesn't say anywhere where or how a woman HAS to give birth, does it?

No, it doesn't. The question is if the would argue medical neglect. Mind you, simply providing a link to that website will totally kill that argument.


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## poppan (Mar 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anglyn* 
my advice? Drop the whole issue. This isnt worth letting cps in over. Try again later. Right now, they are children and go where you go, no problem. Wait a few years the apply again for him. Does he have a birth certificate? This seems ridiculous to me and a huge invastion of privacy and i wouldnt allow it. Is there any reason apply for citizenship cant wait a few years? Or 18?

ita.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anglyn* 
My advice? Drop the whole issue. This isnt worth letting CPS in over. Try again later. Right now, they are children and go where you go, no problem. Wait a few years the apply again for him. Does he have a birth certificate? This seems ridiculous to me and a huge invastion of privacy and I wouldnt allow it. Is there any reason apply for citizenship cant wait a few years? Or 18?

I don't know anything about international law, or even about getting citizenship and such, however, I would have to think that if the application for citizenship was suddenly withdrawn when the mention of social services or the idea of having it looked into, it would likely send major red flags up.

If I were the person that was dealing with an application and someone suddenly withdrew because I mentioned I might have it looked into, I would suddenly think that there was something fishy going on. Otherwise, why would an innocent person suddenly spook at the mention of authorities? I know it happens, I am just saying that from their perspective it would likely send up huge red flags that would likely be placed on the file, so that even if they did nothing now, it would still come back when a new application was submitted.

Of course, that is just my opinion.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty* 
I don't know anything about international law, or even about getting citizenship and such, however, I would have to think that if the application for citizenship was suddenly withdrawn when the mention of social services or the idea of having it looked into, it would likely send major red flags up.

If I were the person that was dealing with an application and someone suddenly withdrew because I mentioned I might have it looked into, I would suddenly think that there was something fishy going on. Otherwise, why would an innocent person suddenly spook at the mention of authorities? I know it happens, I am just saying that from their perspective it would likely send up huge red flags that would likely be placed on the file, so that even if they did nothing now, it would still come back when a new application was submitted.

Of course, that is just my opinion.

That is my reason for not withdrawing - plus the fact that, if they are truly concerned and not just being bureaucratic, a withdrawal would not stop them from getting in touch with social services. Then, all the stress will have been for nothing and I'll still have to reapply at some point in the future (well, that is subjective of course I don't HAVE TO - but the application will be much more difficult.).

Another note about countries/embassies not wanting to deal with dual citizens. When I filed for application (all necessary paperwork, application downloaded from internet), one of their first questions was why I didn't apply sooner, since four months have already passed since my son was born. I handed them the birth cert he had already received, and I think that is the point at which they started getting hostile. They had access to these papers because I provided them, but they didn't so much as look at them.

I feel a bit better now, because Litcrit (MDC-er, see PP) informed me that local SS cannot actually take kids into care before a hearing has taken place, unlike in some other countries. Since this is what I am freaking out over, I can now say that when it comes to that, bureaucracy is on my side. I in fact had visions of them taking away my babies, and me never being able to get them back due to bureaucratic &*%$. Also, the issues that concern them (UC and non vaxing) are not actually illegal, but not specifically protected by law either.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Hey Kidz, I didn't notice you are pregnant! Congrats!


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
Hey Kidz, I didn't notice you are pregnant! Congrats!

Thanks!







I just saw the heartbeat yesterday! So I am so excited! (It will be a January baby.)


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Wonderful! I'm excited for you too! (And I still have the baby fever, though those bureaucrats are turning into some version of birth control, the stress is really putting me off)


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

My lawyer's motto is apparently "Tomorrow". I hope the bureacrats share his motto







:.


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## Litcrit (Feb 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
My lawyer's motto is apparently "Tomorrow". I hope the bureacrats share his motto







:.

They sure do.









I checked on the net - read some local news etc. - it IS sometimes possible to take kids away temporarily, but ONLY AFTER a court hearing where the parent is present and the judge decides that the child is in imminent danger.

The vast majority of the news lament the tardiness and laziness of the social services that SHOULD have done something about repeated reports of severe violence, and now it's too late... horrible stuff, but for you it means they're not likely to be bothered by a mom who happened to give birth to a healthy baby at her own home.


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## Litcrit (Feb 23, 2009)

Oh, a story I had to share - in the following situation, parents were just _threatened_ that they may have to _go to court_ for neglect and they voluntarily agreed that the kids be temporarily placed in foster care - after a court session: 8 kids had to be admitted to hospital after being neglected, half-starved, a layer of dirt on their bare feet keeping them from freezing, none of them were really potty trained or knew how to use a spoon (the eldest is 10!)

Another one: a woman whose husband was in jail kept her two-year-old daughter on the stairs all day long and kicked her every time she passed by. The neighbors fed the kid. Nothing happened.

Gruesome as the stories may be, don't they make you feel better?


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

We did the DNA test, the will be ready in a couple of days. I so hope everything will be ok after that...


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

Keep us posted! I really want to know how this all works out!

I did suggest withdrawing the application, but I didnt think about that trhowing up redflags as if you were hiding something, so I guess I withdraw my suggestion, lol! Just make sure, while you are waiting for social services to show up, that your house is immaculately clean and there is milk and lots of food in the house, each child has seperate sleeping place (even if you cosleep and dont really use them, dont admit to cosleeping). Kids clean and dressed at all times (hey I live on a farm and when my kids go out of play with the chickens then take a dip in the kiddie pool they are as likely as not to end up naked and dirty! Of course they are going to get baths and get dressed as soon as they are done, but if cps showed up at teh wrong moment, they would assume that was the normal/ususal state, kwim?)


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anglyn* 
Keep us posted! I really want to know how this all works out!

I did suggest withdrawing the application, but I didnt think about that trhowing up redflags as if you were hiding something, so I guess I withdraw my suggestion, lol! Just make sure, while you are waiting for social services to show up, that your house is immaculately clean and there is milk and lots of food in the house, each child has seperate sleeping place (even if you cosleep and dont really use them, dont admit to cosleeping). Kids clean and dressed at all times (hey I live on a farm and when my kids go out of play with the chickens then take a dip in the kiddie pool they are as likely as not to end up naked and dirty! Of course they are going to get baths and get dressed as soon as they are done, but if cps showed up at teh wrong moment, they would assume that was the normal/ususal state, kwim?)

Thanks for the tips - I am really interested in those. I have got the cosleeping covered and have a crib set up, I have 2 months worth of rice, noodles, beans, lentils etc, always have milk, butter and eggs in the house. I'm a foodie, so that IS my usual state, but I am even more careful now. I also got tylenol and some other OTC meds plus multi vits for the kids, just in case they ask about that. I take care to wash my CDs ALL the time, just so I won't have any pail for CPS to complain about. Anything else they usually look for? I am sure they don't like my ways at all. That is part of the reason I don't want them in my house. I also have a copy of relevant laws and constitutions printed out, just to remind people they shouldn't attempt to go against the constitution!


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

I don't have a ped at the moment, but I might see if I can track one down that is natural minded and non vax friendly. Just to have something to show I have been to one, kwim?

Litcrit, do you know of any ped like that? Someone who will just give DS a once over, say "he's got two arms and two legs, and he's breathing!" without any invasive stuff? That would be really great!


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

So... They are now accepting the DNA results, but wants CPS to issue a report as to whether UC is "medical neglect". Any thoughts?


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## expatmommy (Nov 7, 2006)

Citizenship has nothing to do with whether you are a good parent or a neglectful parent. Something isn't right in that situation.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *expatmommy* 
Citizenship has nothing to do with whether you are a good parent or a neglectful parent. Something isn't right in that situation.

No, you are right - they are sure to approve citizenship request now (not that I've been told this BY them, my lawyer spoke to them and this is what he said), but the question is whether they will undertake further action. If the embassy officials truly believe UC is neglectful, I can understand. It is true though, that a person's right to citizenship should never, ever be affected by how they were born or what their parents' beliefs are!


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Oh, and a bit of gossip I got at the DNA lab - apparently some embassies in this country require DNA tests even for babies who were born in hospital. This country has some issues with human trafficking.


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## MCR (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
Oh, and a bit of gossip I got at the DNA lab - apparently some embassies in this country require DNA tests even for babies who were born in hospital. This country has some issues with human trafficking.

That is probably the whole threaten with CPS/DNA thing, I bet once they do that, a lot of people who are not legally the parent back off and disappear. Sounds like they may do this to all the applicants to make sure they are really the parents birth child


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Apart from the international mess here, isn't it true that no state could refuse to issue a birth certificate because it disagreed with birth choices and parenting decisions? I know some people here have had CPS issues due to nurses calling right after birth, because of non vaxing, eye goop etc. I am assuming that, even if these parents have real (and obviously unjustified) probems, they DID get the birth certificate with no problems? When presented like that, this all sounds so simple.


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## Litcrit (Feb 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
I don't have a ped at the moment, but I might see if I can track one down that is natural minded and non vax friendly. Just to have something to show I have been to one, kwim?

Litcrit, do you know of any ped like that? Someone who will just give DS a once over, say "he's got two arms and two legs, and he's breathing!" without any invasive stuff? That would be really great!

No, but maybe you could try to find a private one in the Yellow Pages?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
So... They are now accepting the DNA results, but wants CPS to issue a report as to whether UC is "medical neglect". Any thoughts?

That's insane! What's it to them anyway? Can your lawyer stop this?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
Oh, and a bit of gossip I got at the DNA lab - apparently some embassies in this country require DNA tests even for babies who were born in hospital. This country has some issues with human trafficking.

Oh, yes. Many mysteriously 'dead' babies whose bodies their parents aren't allowed to see.


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## Jane91 (Mar 4, 2009)

"That's insane! What's it to them anyway?"

Well if they are agreeing that the child is a citizen of their country, they then have the same obligations they have to all other child citizens of their country to protect against abuse and neglect.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Litcrit* 
That's insane! What's it to them anyway? Can your lawyer stop this?

I sure hope so, but he seems too busy with his high profile (unpaying!) war crimes client!







:







: So he is mainly leaving me to figure out bits and pieces of what is going on, and doing more to freak me out than help me... At this stage, I am not even sure whether local CPS would have any jurisdiction over us or not. But I know the laws and constitutions of all relevant countries. And it definitely should not be an option. I believe that, after becoming aware of everything that goes on in the hospitals, if medical neglect should be mentioned in any context, fingers should be pointed at the hospital staff. And of course, those who prevent change.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jane91* 
"That's insane! What's it to them anyway?"

Well if they are agreeing that the child is a citizen of their country, they then have the same obligations they have to all other child citizens of their country to protect against abuse and neglect.

But, the country citizenship being applied for and the country asking for CPS investigation is NOT the country the child is currently in. I don't think they have any real rights. But I don't really know.


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## expatmommy (Nov 7, 2006)

There is no obligation for any child protection matter other then determining parentage when it comes to obtaining citizenship. They are completely different matters & jurisdictions.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *expatmommy* 
There is no obligation for any child protection matter other then determining parentage when it comes to obtaining citizenship. They are completely different matters & jurisdictions.

Obviously. But to put it bluntly, what good is this, or any other citizenship to my son if they want to send another country's authorities to take him away? (NO, they didn't actually mention that, just that they "should give their expert opinion on whether UC is medical neglect", plus I didn't talk to them, my lawyer did). I am now convinced that local CPS is usually pretty lax in dealing with tragic cases. The embassy staff either 1) don't know the law, or 2) assume that other people don't. Actually, I would like to see a passage inserted into family law that explicitly gives women the right to make informed decisions on how they birth.

Anyway, once my lawyer returns from his visit to the other client, I will ask him to make sure that the birth certificate and passport are issued to start with, and THEN, if they still feel the need to mess around with CPS, they can do so after my son received his documents. Right?

And well... I have no trouble confirming that my son is not facing the ongoing risk of me repeatedly birthing him unassisted







!


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## expatmommy (Nov 7, 2006)

It sure doesn't sound like that country would protect you if there was a deemed child protection issue, does it. How frustrating.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Yay! It looks like the problem is finally solved!







: They want me to come in once more, with a witness to confirm my address - thereby cutting out the need for any home visit from whichever authorities. I am so glad my lazy lawyer finally did something!







:


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

That is wonderful!







:


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

OK, it is over! I had to give a statement, my witness had to give a statement, and I am supposed to get the BC next week sometime. They still informed the local police because apparently they have to, but I really don't think they will be coming round. "My statement" actually consisted of the UC details I had given them before and that left an impression on them. It's kinda cool actually. Translated, it says something like

"I chose to give birth in my house alone because I consider birth to be a normal bodily function and not an ilness or an emergency. Nobody attended my birth. I did not go to hospital after giving birth, not did I call a doctor. I cut the umbilical cord with a knife (funny how that one was so interesting to them!!). I give consent for my son to acquire citizenship of X country and I give him X first name. I treat my children privately, with a pediatrician, as and when needed."

Funny how they insisted on that last sentence - they wanted me to explain why I don't vax, but I pointed out how that didn't affect my citizenship claim, so they just put in the thing about the doctor instead.

All in all, I am so happy this is finally over. Thanks for all your thoughts on the issue!







:


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## AutumnAir (Jun 10, 2008)

Oh, that's great news!







: Glad to hear it seems to have been sorted out satisfactorily. Funny they were so interested in how you cut the umbilical cord!


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