# Soap in vagina during pushing



## Narn (Nov 7, 2007)

When I was at the hospital, a lot of strange things happened to me. I'm hoping someone here might understand why this happened...

When I was fully dilated, the nurse forced me to lie on my back. When I told her I wanted to semi-recline or side-lie she said no. She said the doctor believes lying on my back creates the best angle for the baby's shoulder to pass under the pubic bone. This went against everything I'd read, but I had no choice since I couldn't move my legs.

Looking back it seems the real reason she wanted me on my back was so she could do her own thing. She immediately squirted Johnson's Baby Wash into my vagina and started swishing it around. When my sister asked her what she was doing, she said, "Look! I can make bubbles!" Through two hours of pushing she was doing this and tugging on my vagina. Of course I swelled up from the irritation and ultimately needed a forceps delivery.

Does this seem bizarre to anyone else? I have spent the last four months trying to sort out all the things that happened during labor, but this makes me the most angry. Did she think she needed to keep me clean for the baby? Is she just a weirdo? Should I write a letter to the hospital or call the maternity unit and ask her?


----------



## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

I have never heard of such a thing. I have seen nurses use mineral oil in the way you describe but never SOAP! ouch! I would write a letter.


----------



## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

REPORT HER.

On a side note, semi-reclining isn't better than laying flat. They're both only useful as relaxing positions.

(I swear I read someplace that semi-reclining puts a wierd bend in the pelvis that makes it worse than laying flat.) Ah: http://www.gentlebirth.org/archives/...ml#SemiSitting


----------



## nashvillemidwife (Dec 2, 2007)

You're right. Laying flat is a better position for actually getting the baby out. Semi-reclining puts pressure on the sacrum that compresses the pelvis.

In Honduras the nurses would rinse the mom's vulva with antiseptic solution, but I've never see anyone use it as an internal lubricant. I wouldn't have put up with that. I wouldn't put Johnson & Johnson's on my skin, let along my vagina!


----------



## Shelsi (Apr 4, 2005)

You have to wonder if that would burn the baby's eyes... I know when my dd was crowned dh said she was looking at him.


----------



## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

~


----------



## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

I am a labor delivery RN and I have NEVER heard of doing that nor has anyone ever suggested me doing that EVER!!!! If they did, I would not only say no, but HELLL no! And yes, I would suggest lying on the back for best position for delivery of the shoulders.


----------



## WoodlandFairytale (Nov 5, 2007)

Yikes. I would definitely report her. Not only does that seem unnecessary and even potentially harmful (like a PP said, I wouldn't even put that on my *skin*!), how demeaning for her to make a remark about 'making bubbles'. Totally inappropriate and disrespectful.


----------



## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Oh, one more thing while I am at at, I cannot believe the comment that nurse made "I am making bubbles" ???? My God. She is type of RN that gives all of us LDR nurses a bad rap. We are all not like that...please believe me! There are few of us who don't have our heads up our ass*s when it comes to delivery.


----------



## Snookler (Sep 23, 2005)

Wow. Please write a letter. Make sure that this doesn't happen to someone else.


----------



## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Narn* 
Is she just a weirdo? Should I write a letter to the hospital or call the maternity unit and ask her?

Yes and yes. She sounds like she has mental problems and shouldn't be allowed to abuse any other patients like that. SOAP?!? I would have punched her in the face!


----------



## Stacymom (Jul 7, 2002)

Interesting. I was a doula for my sister in Virginia a few months ago, and the nurse did the same thing with the Johnsons baby wash. She probably went through 4-5 of those little trial bottles of it. I couldn't ever get a straight reason from the nurse as to why she did it- she alluded to make it more "lubricated" and keeping the area "clean." It seemed absurd and invasive to me, but my sister was unquestioning.

They were also insistent on her pushing on her back. The nurse told her that she couldn't sit up at all because "we don't want the baby to get stuck on your pubic bone."


----------



## Narn (Nov 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mytwogirls* 
Oh, one more thing while I am at at, I cannot believe the comment that nurse made "I am making bubbles" ???? My God. She is type of RN that gives all of us LDR nurses a bad rap. We are all not like that...please believe me! There are few of us who don't have our heads up our ass*s when it comes to delivery.

Oh yeah, she was even nodding her head and closing her eyes in between contractions after hours of complaining how tired she was.


----------



## channelofpeace (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WoodlandFairytale* 
Yikes. I would definitely report her. Not only does that seem unnecessary and even potentially harmful (like a PP said, I wouldn't even put that on my *skin*!), how demeaning for her to make a remark about 'making bubbles'. Totally inappropriate and disrespectful.


I totally agree. I had them wash off my vulva and perineum with a wet washcloth before pushing, but soap, internally especially, is not appropriate. And your request to side-lie was absolutely reasonable.

But the most disturbing part of your story was the bubbles comment. I would definitely file a complaint.

I am sorry that you were treated that way, Mama. It shouldn't have been like that for you, especially at such an important and pivotal moment in your life.


----------



## aaronsmom (Jan 22, 2007)

Wow. I don't even know what to say to this. Her comment was just sickening. Report her ASAP!!!


----------



## goodcents (Dec 19, 2002)

report her. that is totally odd and completely unprofessional.


----------



## balancedmama (Feb 16, 2007)

How bizarre. I am so sorry you were treated this way.


----------



## hipmummy (May 25, 2007)

Jeesh it's like it was a ring that was stuck on your finger not the birth of a baby. What an evil woman. My mom did L&D for 32 years and she said only seven times did they use castille soap for a delivery and it was because the mother had raging yeast infections. If it even helped?
So sorry Mama, take back your birth by reporting her.


----------



## Narn (Nov 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Snookler* 
Wow. Please write a letter. Make sure that this doesn't happen to someone else.

I have just finished my letter. I addressed this issue, among others, including the handing out of formula "gift bags." I'll post if I get a response.

I am also including a copy of Lamaze's revised labor practices. I'll be sending a copy of that to my OB, too. I was given Lamaze literature at the office, every one of these was violated in my experience. Why hand out literature from an organization that has an entirely different philosophy on childbirth!??


----------



## lovesdaffodils (Jul 11, 2007)

OMG mama.







I'm so sorry that happened to you. Yes, yes, yes report her!


----------



## WeasleyMum (Feb 27, 2007)

Ditto the PP. That is just weird, disrespectful (bubbles?!!), and potentially irritating or harmful for the mother and baby. Write a strong letter of complaint!


----------



## 3daughters (Aug 11, 2004)

I've also seen baby shampoo used as a lubricant during pushing. One OB joked that the baby was getting his first hair wash.


----------



## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)

OMG, that is bizarre! Please speak to someone as well as send your letter. They could just throw your letter away if they wanted to. You definitely need to report them!


----------



## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

~


----------



## barefootpoetry (Jul 19, 2007)

WTH?!? That is the most bizarre thing I've ever heard!

I second the suggestion to call, not just write. And keep calling until you reach the person you need to reach to take care of this. The soap was outrageous enough, but the bubbles comment was TOTALLY unprofessional. That's your vagina, not a bath toy! That nurse sounds like a psycho!


----------



## ktbug (Jul 8, 2006)

Forgive me if this is naive, but is there any documentation out there or written practice guidelines which call for this ... um ... technique? I think I might look around in nursing journals. It seems totally off the wall, especially since most products like that have the words "for external use only" printed clearly on their labels. What the heck!?

Mama, I'm so sorry your birth experience was like this.
I hope writing the letter brought you some degree of clarity and healing.
Have you ordered your medical records, and those of your baby? I think that might be a useful thing for you in your process. And there might be more weirdness.


----------



## WoodlandFairytale (Nov 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ktbug* 
Forgive me if this is naive, but is there any documentation out there or written practice guidelines which call for this ... um ... technique? I think I might look around in nursing journals. It seems totally off the wall, especially since most products like that have the words "for external use only" printed clearly on their labels. What the heck!?

Mama, I'm so sorry your birth experience was like this.
I hope writing the letter brought you some degree of clarity and healing.
Have you ordered your medical records, and those of your baby? I think that might be a useful thing for you in your process. And there might be more weirdness.

I was thinking the same thing. It seems really stupid, for lack of a nicer word, to put soap inside any body cavity let alone a vagina that is about to bear a baby. Why oh why do so-called medical 'experts' think we need all this kind of garbage? The human body is designed to do things a certain way for a reason.


----------



## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, it is for external use only. When I was in nursing college, we NEVER were taught to use anything like that of the sort. As a LDR nurse, I never use anything like to wash the area, just use peri care ointments (which is MEANT to go in and around the vagina) during labor. How rude...I just get more ticked off every time I think about it. I mentioned this to another labor delivery nurse I work with and she had to pick her jaw up off the ground. You need to call the hospital administration office. There is a form you can fill out, but I would suggest maybe paying them a visit. Tell them the nurse's name (they also have it on file who was caring for you in case you can't remember) and report it..NOW!!! If she keeps this sh*t up, someone will get hurt!


----------



## treehuggermama (Jan 3, 2007)

I am just flabbergasted...I have worked all over the country and never heard of such a thing...What is the point in the OB gowning sterile and putting on sterile gloves (if that was done) if somebody was throwing disgusting Johnson's brand of soap which is not sterile into your vagina of all places...That is one of the most violating awful things I have heard in awhile and I am sorry that you had to go through it. Please please if you know of the name of the nurse report her to that state's board of nursing for review of her practice so this hopefully won't be allowed to happen again.


----------



## ledzepplon (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *barefootpoetry* 
WTH?!? That is the most bizarre thing I've ever heard!

I second the suggestion to call, not just write. And keep calling until you reach the person you need to reach to take care of this. The soap was outrageous enough, but the bubbles comment was TOTALLY unprofessional. That's your vagina, not a bath toy! That nurse sounds like a psycho!

Yes, absolutely. IMO, that was certainly abuse.

I'm so sorry you went through that, mama.


----------



## Shanana (May 11, 2005)

Unbelievable! I am so sorry this happened to you







. And I'm glad you're taking action.

Just a comment on the positioning ... from the mouth of my midwife (who is incredibly knowledgeable), the position where the pelvis is most open is squatting OR flat on your back (not semi-reclined, since that does push the sacrum in as a pp noted). I asked her because I knew at one of her recent births the mom pushed flat on her back and I was kind of shocked to hear that. Mom was small and baby was very large (10+ lbs), so they wanted the pelvis as open as possible. They were also worried about shoulder dystocia. MW advised against squatting because it increased the risk of tearing, so they tried with mom on her back for quite a while. But it wasn't working, so she ended up squatting and tearing.

IMO it's very hard to push lying flat on your back (have you ever tried to blow your nose like that?!







), but it is sometimes advised to allow the pelvis to open. That said, I believe it is probably only necessary in situations like what I mentioned above, and NOT necessary most of the time. But if you have an epi, most hospitals won't let you do anything but lie down to push, so that limits your choices and sometimes flat may be the best way to go. Although I see no reason why they couldn't have let you try on your side!


----------



## treehuggermama (Jan 3, 2007)

The other thing that just occurred to me is the safety issue of if babe were to aspirate on the soap/bubbles (or mineral oil)?


----------



## Quaniliaz (Oct 11, 2002)

That's weird - I haven't ever seen anything like that. I'd definately direct the question to her dept.


----------



## Jane (May 15, 2002)

Laying flat is a postion that can help out in some circumstances. I don't think it's neccesary for every birth, but it can help sometimes. Sometimes squatting is just the thing, sometimes side lying, sometimes other positions. Doing it for two hours straight seems like a lot, but...hard to totally condemn it without being there.

The baby soap is totally crazy. I've seen births, and especially older birth videos, where the mama was totally washed down with brown betadine soap just prior to delivery. The oldest uses of soaps predate antibiotics - w/o antibiotics or std tests, it makes more sense. I totally thought this was gonna be a betadine soap question. Johnson's, though? Crazy.
I bet you could write to Johnsons and ask them if it's approved for pre-delivery vaginal wash and lubricant.


----------



## mwherbs (Oct 24, 2004)

I mostly see those containers of mineral oil but I have seen betadine and hibiclens used
the soap probably wouldn't burn the baby's eyes but sounds like it was irritating to your mucous membranes and if it were inhaled or sucked in by the baby- not so good sounds like she was doing perineal massage- I agree with others you can complain--
flat on the back is also better than semi-sitting because there is not the pressure on the tail bone , with knees pulled back it is something like a lying squat - but it isn't using gravity==


----------



## N8'sMom (Jun 25, 2007)

Oh my gosh!
I have never heard of this.
You're not supposed to put soap in your vagina.
She shouldn't have done that.
And the bubbles comments and the nodding off and complaining
is just way way too unprofessional. I hope they actually read
your letter and address this issue.


----------



## Rockies5 (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Apricot* 
I bet you could write to Johnsons and ask them if it's approved for pre-delivery vaginal wash and lubricant.

I HAVE to agree with this, send Johnsons a copy of your letter and mention your concerns about

1. baby breathing in their soap
2. internal use of their soap, such as for sexual lubricant
3. concerns for infection, stating your hospitals name and a general statistic for forceps and episiotomy use in this hospital
4. be clear that you had no idea this would be done, and that is was done by hospital staff without permission

(pretty sure Johnson's' shampoo isn't appropriate WOUND CARE)

I bet it doesnt take long for their legal department to shoot out a letter to that hospital!

and, I am SO sorry this happped to anyone.







it's abuse done with a smile.


----------



## Sileree (Aug 15, 2006)

Yeah, I have been to two doula births where they used soap... and one where betadine was used in the same way. It was interesting, to say the least.

Oh yes, and the lovely old doctor's tale about the baby not coming from under the pubic bone unless you are lying down... I have heard that so many times coming from the nurses who attend my clients. Total, utter, complete BS 99% of the time.

And the part about laying on the back creating more space is not true. From what I have read, it helps in certain situations when the pelvic inlet needs to be opened, but thats not very often. Think about it here... the baby has moved way past the inlet by the time you are pushing.


----------



## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mytwogirls* 
I am a labor delivery RN and I have NEVER heard of doing that nor has anyone ever suggested me doing that EVER!!!! If they did, I would not only say no, but HELLL no! And yes, I would suggest lying on the back for best position for delivery of the shoulders.

I'm an L&D nurse too and all 3 hospitals I worked in, the OB's do this, but with a "hibaclens" type soap. No, they are not trying to disinfect the area - they claim it "helps the baby slide out".


----------



## maxmama (May 5, 2006)

What the fricking frack? No one's heard of lube?

We will occasionally use gel (essentially K-Y) but SOAP?


----------



## Minnie79 (Oct 5, 2007)

That is truly disgusting. I'm sorry you had to go through that


----------



## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maxmama* 
What the fricking frack? No one's heard of lube?

We will occasionally use gel (essentially K-Y) but SOAP?

Well, it seems that no one has heard that "perineal ironing" or "manual stretching" during pushing causes more trouble than it prevents either (see OP). Yes, a lot of OB's I've worked with still do this. The swelling it causes in the process causes more tearing as a result.


----------



## mwherbs (Oct 24, 2004)

actually the studies are about 50/50 on perineal massage, some show benefit some say no and one study in New Mexico actually came up being equal-- so mom's choice is what the recommendations are- since mom wasn't even informed and it was foisted upon her just like the soap not ok


----------



## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mwherbs* 
actually the studies are about 50/50 on perineal massage, some show benefit some say no and one study in New Mexico actually came up being equal-- so mom's choice is what the recommendations are- since mom wasn't even informed and it was foisted upon her just like the soap not ok

With long pushing (and I work with almost all epiduralized moms, so more the rule than the exception) I've seen an aweful lot of swelling if they are doing this for 2 hours. And then the resulting "chopped beef" bottom afterwards. Ouch.


----------



## Narn (Nov 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2seven* 
And then the resulting "chopped beef" bottom afterwards. Ouch.

That's exactly what I looked like! I had my sister take pictures of _everything._ I looked at them a few weeks later. No wonder it took me two months to recover!

That is interesting about sending a letter to Johnsons as well. I think I will do that.

And the peri massage. I was told in the childbirth class that it would be done. I just didn't think they started doing it until the baby was closer to crowning. I mean, I am very sensitive and swell a lot just from sex. I am positive my swelling was mostly from this and the soap. My sister took pictures of all of this as well. It's just not clear enough to see that it's actually soap.

Last night I after reading all of your responses I thought I might have just heard wrong when my sister said it was baby wash. But I asked my husband, and he said, "Yeah, it was definitely soap. Some kind of baby wash."

Why didn't she say, "Okay, I'm going to put soap in your vagina now." Like when I'm at the OB and she says, "Okay, this is just a cotton swab." or "I'm just going to use a little gel, it might feel cold." It's a courtesy to let me know what's coming, so I could have said, "What? NO!" I guess when I can't feel anything below my waist it doesn't matter to the nurse. Man, I hope she gets her ass fired!!


----------



## DBZ (Aug 9, 2005)

subbing cuz I want to know the outcome


----------



## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, I have seen hibiclens, but I don't see it used regularly where I work at L&D nurse. I just think it is BEYOND strange this nurse and hospital uses this as a practice and no one blinks an eye.


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

Yes, a lot of OB's I've worked with still do this.
So, no evidence-based reason for doing it other than custom? It never fails to amaze me how many common obstetric practices are so completely mother-unfriendly


----------



## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

Many of the OBs I work with DO NOT do this..no lube. My OB did some stretching for me, but I opted to be cut so I did not tear so that whole idea went out the window (I am VERY small and had a 9.2lbs baby vaginally) so I think it depends where you are and who your doc is.


----------



## maxmama (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mytwogirls* 
Many of the OBs I work with DO NOT do this..no lube. My OB did some stretching for me, but I opted to be cut so I did not tear so that whole idea went out the window (I am VERY small and had a 9.2lbs baby vaginally) so I think it depends where you are and who your doc is.

OT, but an epis does NOT guarantee a smaller repair -- in fact, by definition, it guarantees you a second degree, where you might have had a first degree or none. Third- and fourth-degree extensions are also more common with an epis than without.


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maxmama* 
OT, but an epis does NOT guarantee a smaller repair -- in fact, by definition, it guarantees you a second degree, where you might have had a first degree or none. Third- and fourth-degree extensions are also more common with an epis than without.











ITA. This is really important information, thank you for sharing


----------



## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maxmama* 
OT, but an epis does NOT guarantee a smaller repair -- in fact, by definition, it guarantees you a second degree, where you might have had a first degree or none. Third- and fourth-degree extensions are also more common with an epis than without.

very good point. Also the weight of the baby and even how big of a person you are doesn't mean you are more likely to tear- its the head circumference, molding, shoulders, how stretchy your tissues are, pushing position, if you "purple" push (hard and fast) or push instinctively and allow your tissues to stretch, etc. There are so many factors.


----------



## ~Boudicca~ (Sep 7, 2005)

I had to read this thread simply because I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the title.

Um, WOW. That is the strangest thing I have ever heard of.


----------



## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

I have always been told and taught it is was better to be cut than risk being ripped. It heals better and a good OB can tell when the head is in the right place whether or not it is going to fit without being ripped apart. My OB told me straight up what was going on and I said to cut, no way in hell was I going to rip.


----------



## quarteralien (Oct 4, 2006)

I'm so sorry your OB believes a wound he inflicts is better than a wound that happens naturally. BOTH are wounds, for crying out loud. BOTH will take healing, and tearing is NOT a guarantee in childbirth. You CAN get through it intact.








The mistrust of birth and women's bodies continues.


----------



## maxmama (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mytwogirls* 
I have always been told and taught it is was better to be cut than risk being ripped. It heals better and a good OB can tell when the head is in the right place whether or not it is going to fit without being ripped apart. My OB told me straight up what was going on and I said to cut, no way in hell was I going to rip.

But having an episiotomy increases your risk of a larger tear, as in a 3rd or 4th degree. I would not let anyone do an epis unless it was because we needed delivery immediately, in the next push.

And a "good OB" knows what s/he doesn't know. How much any one woman can stretch is one of those things. There are so many factors other than baby size that affect who tears and how much. Maybe your OB doesn't know how to support the perineum, or use compresses to reduce tearing, or how much position affects tearing. Maybe he's used to women who have IVs, are fluid-overloaded and have edematous bottoms before they ever start pushing. No one can tell you whether you will or will not tear until the head comes out.

What makes a lot of OBs prefer an epis is that it's much easier and faster to repair.


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mytwogirls* 
I have always been told and taught it is was better to be cut than risk being ripped. It heals better and a good OB can tell when the head is in the right place whether or not it is going to fit without being ripped apart. My OB told me straight up what was going on and I said to cut, no way in hell was I going to rip.

I would suggest that the facts say something very different as far as healing, in most instances, for most mothers. The info above is completely counter to all evidence-based information I've ever read. I would much, much rather "risk" tearing that be cut. No question about it in my mind (and in my personal experience with episiotomy).

Here are a few informative links about episiotomies for anyone who might be interested









http://www.efn.org/~djz/birth/obmyth/epis.html

http://www.mothering.com/articles/pr...pisiotomy.html


----------



## herbanmama (Jun 10, 2005)

Quote:


And a "good OB" knows what s/he doesn't know. How much any one woman can stretch is one of those things. There are so many factors other than baby size that affect who tears and how much. Maybe your OB doesn't know how to support the perineum, or use compresses to reduce tearing, or how much position affects tearing. Maybe he's used to women who have IVs, are fluid-overloaded and have edematous bottoms before they ever start pushing. No one can tell you whether you will or will not tear until the head comes out.

What makes a lot of OBs prefer an epis is that it's much easier and faster to repair.










In my experience, women who are allowed to tear experience less damage than those who recieve an epis, and heal faster. It comes down to the OB preferring the epis, not necessarily it being the better option for the woman.









As for the soap, just "ewww"...As a doula, I have seen baby wash used to cleanse the area externally during a long labor, but never internally. I'd raise some hell!


----------



## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mytwogirls* 
I have always been told and taught it is was better to be cut than risk being ripped. It heals better and a good OB can tell when the head is in the right place whether or not it is going to fit without being ripped apart. My OB told me straight up what was going on and I said to cut, no way in hell was I going to rip.

You've been lied to. By people who should know better.


----------



## junestars (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mytwogirls* 
I have always been told and taught it is was better to be cut than risk being ripped.

episiotomies have been banned at my hospital - that's how much worse the outcome usually is.

think about trying to tear a piece of paper apart by just pulling at either side. If the paper is intact it's really hard. Now cut a small slit in the paper and pull - it rips in half real easy. That's what you are doing by making a cut - making it easier to be ripped.


----------



## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mytwogirls* 
I have always been told and taught it is was better to be cut than risk being ripped. It heals better and a good OB can tell when the head is in the right place whether or not it is going to fit without being ripped apart. My OB told me straight up what was going on and I said to cut, no way in hell was I going to rip.

I can't believe that an OB is still spouting this nonsense. The residency programs don't teach it and the word has gotten out through ACOG that research shows it not to be true. Irks me how many OB's get stuck in the mindset of whatever they were taught, no matter what is supported by research.


----------



## lisarussell (Jan 24, 2005)

OMG I have never heard of this. WOW. I would definitely try & get to the bottom of it. I don't personally EVER use soap down there because it gets irritated. It's a mucous membrane, like your eye. Who would put soap there?

WOW- I am so sorry this happened to you. What will they think of next? And the bubble thing, [edit] . Jeez- I just don't even know what to say about such strangeness.

At least you've got a healthy baby and the unfortunate event was never anything you could have predicted or prepared for. Who would have ever guessed THAT would happen??? What WAS that?


----------



## tireesix (Apr 27, 2006)

I heard that 4th degree tears arer only really heard of in America because of episiotomies.......


----------



## maxmama (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tireesix* 
I heard that 4th degree tears arer only really heard of in America because of episiotomies.......

I don't know if I buy this, because I have seen 4th degrees on non-episiotomy women. The epis just makes it more likely. But if you have some research, I'd love to read it!


----------



## fishface (Jan 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mytwogirls* 
I have always been told and taught it is was better to be cut than risk being ripped. It heals better and a good OB can tell when the head is in the right place whether or not it is going to fit without being ripped apart. My OB told me straight up what was going on and I said to cut, no way in hell was I going to rip.

Think of it this way. If you tear naturally you will only tear as much as necessary, if at all, to allow the baby to pass. These tears are superficial. If you are cut, you are cut through skin, muscle, and nerve. You are also cut as much as the doctor cuts you and then may have additional tearing as junestar's piece of paper example illustrates.

ATTN JUNESTARS -- you said epis are banned at your hospital.....is this becoming common?

From the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists

http://www.acog.org/from_home/public...03-31-06-2.cfm

More related links:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/511710

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/40865.php


----------



## Narn (Nov 7, 2007)

I plan on sending my letter tomorrow with the mail. Any last minute input???:

I am writing in regard to my recent childbirth experience at your hospital in September 2007. I have several concerns with staff members and procedures during and following childbirth.

When I arrived at your maternity unit, I was immediately strapped with moniters and instructed to lie in bed. I had been laboring well on my own at home for many hours and had been managing my contractions well by walking and squatting. Lying down intensified the pain and was very uncomfortable to me. When I complained to the nurse on duty, R, I was told to stay in bed until my baby woke up. This took over an hour. I remember my childbirth instructor said you had wireless moniters. Why could I not have used one of those? When I was finally allowed to walk, I had to carry the monitor cords around my neck. It was very uncomfortable and upsetting to me.

I refused an IV initially, because labor was going fine, my baby was well, and I wanted to have as natural a birth as possible. I had been drinking plenty of water. I wanted to be as mobile as possible. I did not want an epidural. I was repeatedly told I needed an IV anyway. I finally agreed to a heparin lock, but R attatched the solution without my permission. Perhaps nurses find it more convenient to introduce an IV "now" rather than "later." I do not believe it is always apporopriate for a nurse's convenience to be more important than a laboring mother's.

The doctor wanted my water broken after only a couple hours at the hospital. I did not feel my labor needed to be rushed. I was managing my contractions well, and my baby was doing fine. I finally agreed to this procedure after being in the hospital for only four hours. It made my contractions much more painful and made a mess with all the leaking fluid. Lamaze International advises a mother's labor be allowed to progress on its own with interventions only when necessary. My labor was progressing fine. Even the doctor told me I was doing well. So, why was my water broken anyway? This puts more stress on the mother and baby.

The two nurses who attended to me during labor, R and L, were complaining about how tired they were. They complained several times to me. I hadn't slept in a while and was trying to manage labor. I found their complaining inappropriate. In my vunerable state I felt guilty for inconveniencing them and not delivering my baby more quickly. This is not how a laboring mother should be made to feel by anyone, especially the nursing staff. A laboring mother needs reassurance that she is doing a good job. Sometimes I received kind and reassuring words, but the negative complaining was very discouraging.

When it came time for me to push, L squirted Johnsons Baby Shampoo into my vagina. When my sister asked her what she was doing, Linda replied, "I can make bubbles!" I'm not sure why soap was used inside my vagina. I have never read about this being part of the labor and delivery routine. Soap is irritating to mucous membranes like that in the vagina. Soap in the vagina can also cause yeast infections and urinary tract infections. A labor and delivery nurse should know this. Every woman should know this about vaginal care. Soap could also get into the baby's eyes when passing through the birth canal. I want to know why soap was used on me and what will be done to stop this nurse from using it on other patients. After two hours of soap in and tugging on my vagina, it swelled and forceps were needed to deliver my baby. I understand the possible benefits of perineal massage, but after two hours this also becomes irritating to the vagina. I believe that soap and tugging irritated my vagina and contributed to the swelling.

I have written a letter to the Johnsons company about the misuse of their product by your hospital.

During the pushing phase and in between contractions I was made to feel even more uncomfortable by L. She was nodding her head and closing her eyes as if briefly dozing. It was very upsetting to me. I felt like she hated being there and thought this baby was taking too long to come out. I knew that a normal delivery could take hours of pushing, but in my vulnerable physical and emotional state, I could not help but feel like I was inconveniencing her. I understand that nurses are very busy and need to work hard, but they should never behave like this to a laboring woman. I am more angry about the behavior of this nurse than anything else I experienced during my stay at your hospital. I request that L be reprimanded for her behavior. My husband and sister witnessed this also, and can provide letters of testimony.

I have more complaints about the behavior and inconsideration of your staff. In my room during recovery I could hear nurses complaining outside my door. I kept shutting my door, but nurses would leave it open. I would hear them complaining about how tired or busy they were. I had trouble sleeping through this. At one point a nurse shouted in the hallway, "This one's going to have a ruptured uterus and ruptured bladder!!" This is not something I wanted to hear after my difficult childbirth experience.

I received no response after pressing my call button. A nurse had taken my new baby for a test, but didn't bring her back. I did not know where my baby was. I pressed the call button, but there was no response. I had been instructed by one nurse to stay in bed and only get up with assistance. Later, a different nurse told me that I had been "taking it too easy" and needed to get up and walk around if I wanted to see my baby. I was very confused by this conflicting advice, and felt that the nurses had no right to keep my baby from me.

I am requesting that some action is taken against the staff's inappropriate conduct. Nurses need to be kind, considerate and encouraging. They also need to be kept up-to-date on current labor practices. I have enclosed a copy of Lamaze's Care Practices for normal birth. Everyone of these was violated during my childbirth. I advise that your staff read over them, and any other current literature that would be educational. Nurses also need to understand that every mother and baby are different and need individualized care.

I was also offended by the "gift bag" full of formula I was given. This is a formula company marketing to your patients and does not belong in a hospital. Many hospitals refuse to hand out this propaganda including public hospitals in New York. I believe ____ Hospital should follow their excellent example.

I will be waiting for your response.

Sincerely,


----------



## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

All of the things you mention are important, but I would focus on the main issue in this letter--that nurse acted outside the bounds of decency and should not be allowed near another patient. And it's the act that might result in viable litigation.

All the other things you mentioned are reasons to tell every pregnant woman you meet to avoid that hospital. But they're things that will distract the hospital administration from the main point and they're things that result in a "well, if you didn't want that, why didn't you just decline??" response, if they answer at all, maybe with a photocopy of your intake papers.

Take out everything but the bits about the soap, and see what you've got from there. A line about "the effects of the soap were aggravated by excessive fluids from an unnecessary IV" would fit into that main topic.

If you just want to let them know everything that is wrong with hospital maternity care, then your letter is fine. If you want that nurse to be penalized for her abusive treatment of you, focus on the specific act of abuse.


----------



## clutterbug (Apr 6, 2007)

I read your letter in your other thread, and then saw this thread. How awful! Someone posted a link in your other thread that maybe points to why they (ill advisedly) used the shampoo...something about using it prior to gynecologic surgerical procedures. I know it used to be common practice (and I'm sure it still is in some hospitals, I am sure I've seen in on A Baby Story) to use a strong antiseptic (Betadine, the brownish stuff they rub on you before surgery) all over the perineal area prior to delivery. Maybe the nurse was thinking that the baby shampoo was required as an alternative to this? Regardless, she was wrong and if they are doing it routinely, it should be stopped.

I'm sorry you had to go through such an awful experience. I hope your letter brings about some thought and action on the hospital's part.


----------



## Narn (Nov 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
If you just want to let them know everything that is wrong with hospital maternity care, then your letter is fine. If you want that nurse to be penalized for her abusive treatment of you, focus on the specific act of abuse.

I get what you're saying. That is a good idea. My letter won't do anything to change a hospital's overall disrespect for women in labor. Addressing this specific nurse's behavior would be a better idea. I get so flooded with emotion when I am remembering the whole event. It is good to get an outsider's view. Thanks so much!


----------



## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Narn* 
I get what you're saying. That is a good idea. My letter won't do anything to change a hospital's overall disrespect for women in labor. Addressing this specific nurse's behavior would be a better idea. I get so flooded with emotion when I am remembering the whole event. It is good to get an outsider's view. Thanks so much!










It was very important for you to write the full letter.


----------



## MsElle07 (Jul 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3daughters* 
I've also seen baby shampoo used as a lubricant during pushing. One OB joked that the baby was getting his first hair wash.









My MW used this while doing perineal massage. I trusted her and didn't think it was weird at the time, but afterward I certainly did.


----------



## yarngoddess (Dec 27, 2006)

After you send your letter regarding your *horrible* birth experience, they will probably contact you regarding any other concerns that you have, and THEN you can tell them that you are upset that they issue the "bags".

Also make sure, if and when someone calls that he/she is someone that is actually IN CHARGE of all the nurses, not just a shift supervisor. You want to talk to the L&D charge nurse and if you can't talk to that person, then contact the hospital's administrative office, and speak to the CEO there. Seriously. This seems to be a major violation, I'm so sorry for your experience!


----------



## Night_Nurse (Nov 23, 2007)

I'm an OB RN (I mostly do post-partum). FWIW, I've never seen J&J Baby shampoo used at my facility or the other 2 hospitals I've been in,, but all facilities are a bit different.
I read your letter. I thought it was fine but wanted to suggest two things. First of all, the hospital has no control over what your doctor does really. They aren't in control of when or if he breaks your water. So I'd leave that part out. If that was an issue, you need to write a letter to him/her at his/her office.
Also, the part about notifying J&J about misuse by their facility - I'd change that.
Maybe just include something like "I don't see where on the shampoo bottle it is appropriate for internal use" (although some docs [pedis & opthamologists] recommend washing eyes out w/ baby shampoo sometimes if one has an infection). Anyway, wording it like that sounds less threatening than the other way.
I would send at least two letters - one to the L&D manager and one to the Department head of all of Women & Children's services (this will be L&D's manager's boss). This will certainly get their attention. Often times hospitals will send out patient satisfaction surveys. If you get one of these, make sure you include info about your stay as well.
I think your complaints will be taken seriously and at the very least I'm sure L&D manager will discuss at a staff meeting how negative attitudes and inappropriate comments reflect poorly with overall patient satisfaction (trust me, our dept. head ALWAYS tells us of postive & negative feedback). But you may also want to include something positive in your letter too, like if your discharge nurse was nice or if the nursery nurse was good. Anything that lets them know you're not writing just to complain for the sake of complaining will make your letter be taken a bit more seriously.

And if there is ever any doubt about what was done to you, at any point during your care, you are always entitled to view your medical record. Hospital's usually keep records on file at least one year before they send them off to be stored. The rude nurse should have documented in your nursing progress notes what she was washing you with and why.

I'm so sorry you had a bad experience. I work in a hospital and I've birthed in a hospital. I've also birthed at home with midwives. The homebirth was much more friendly and relaxed!


----------



## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

You said it exactly Night Nurse. Our managers ALWAYS tell us when we get letters and let us know both ways positive and negative letters. I think the letter sounds great. Good luck next time around..NO SOAP ALLOWED


----------



## Narn (Nov 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Night_Nurse* 
I read your letter. I thought it was fine but wanted to suggest two things. First of all, the hospital has no control over what your doctor does really. They aren't in control of when or if he breaks your water. So I'd leave that part out. If that was an issue, you need to write a letter to him/her at his/her office.

I do plan to write an entirely separate letter to my OB. There are a few issues at that office I am upset about, too. They have to do with my prenatal care.


----------



## barefootpoetry (Jul 19, 2007)

My heart broke reading your letter, Narn. So many painful memories of my own birth. It must have been very cathartic for you to get it out onto paper. However, I agree with the other ladies: the most important part, the bit about the soap, was lost amidst all the other complaints. I think the letter to the hospital itself should focus mainly on the soap incident, and give the full letter to your OB. Maybe you could also write another version focusing on the sour attitudes of the nurses and send it to the nurses who attended you? Their names should be in your medical records, I believe.


----------



## MariposaMami (Jan 7, 2008)

Was there any resolution to this Narn? I had some issues when I delivered my first baby in the hospital. My 3 boys after that have been home births, and hopefully my 5th, which is expected soon, will be born there as well.
Let us know how it all went. I hope you got some resolution.


----------



## Narn (Nov 7, 2007)

I have edited the letter to focus solely on the nurse that attended during delivery.
Now I am just waiting for a response. Thanks for showing interest! Makes me feel less lonely about the whole thing... if that makes any sense.


----------



## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

I've been following this thread and thinking about you, too. Please let us know what kind of response you get. I hope they take your complaint seriously.


----------



## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia* 
So, no evidence-based reason for doing it other than custom? It never fails to amaze me how many common obstetric practices are so completely mother-unfriendly

















This thread makes me wonder what else was done to me when I was laboring with my first baby. Only because of my records do I know that I was given pitocin, and some device was inserted into my vagina and SCREWED/STUCK in to the scalp of my baby without my knowledge or permission. Coincedentally, my son had a reddish/purplish mark on his head that the doctors explained away at the time as a "stork bite"







Gee, I wonder what caused that?

It really makes me wonder why birth "professionals" can get away with doing the above and other potentially damaging procedures without having to, at the bare minimum, get permission from the mother. Is that to much to freakin' ask? Really!?

And to the OP, I am sorry that happened to you mama. That is so wrong, it really makes me want to cry







And I am glad someone saw that happen. Please let us know what happens.


----------



## BirthIsAwesome (Nov 14, 2007)

subbing!


----------



## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericswifey27* 
Only because of my records do I know that I was given pitocin, and some device was inserted into my vagina and SCREWED/STUCK in to the scalp of my baby without my knowledge or permission.

I'm not sure from your post, but if it wasn't clear what that device was - it's the internal monitor for CFM - continuous fetal monitoring. That's how they can get consistent heartrate readouts for your baby while you're in labor. Of course, it requires that they break your water and screw an electrode into your baby's scalp, but that's completely worth it for a heartrate strip that different doctors interpret differently and the same doctor interprets differently at different times, and has not been shown to improve outcomes.


----------



## Narn (Nov 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericswifey27* 
It really makes me wonder why birth "professionals" can get away with doing the above and other potentially damaging procedures without having to, at the bare minimum, get permission from the mother. Is that to much to freakin' ask? Really!?

Yeah, even the OBGYN always lets me know what's going on, like, "okay, I'm just going to ____ now. You'll feel ____."

When I contacted Johnson & Johnson, the woman I spoke to said she had never heard of Baby Shampoo being used during delivery and that it is never recommended to be used in the genital area. She apologized to me. Even though it was not the company's fault, it still helps to hear that.

Since sending out the letter and calling Johnsons I have thought about the whole delivery less and less. But I am still going to see that something gets changed.


----------



## Narn (Nov 7, 2007)

I got a letter back from the quality officer at the hospital acknowledging my complaint of the nurse's behaviour and use of the shampoo. There was an apology and a promise that the issue was investigated and discussed with the nurse and nurse manager. It was what I expected. It's good to know that this shampoo use might stop now. At least I hope it will for other women's sake.

I think limiting my letter to just those two issues was a good idea.

Now I wonder if they were ever contacted by the shampoo company.


----------



## wombjuice (Feb 22, 2007)

Narn, that is a very positive response! I am so glad you took the time to do this! You have probably saved dozens of women from going through the same thing that you did. I know this doesn't heal the trauma of what happened to you, but I hope it helps you feel better.









Great job!


----------



## Shanana (May 11, 2005)

I am glad they apologized to you and are following up on the issue. Good for you for writing them!


----------



## Marlet (Sep 9, 2004)

I'm so sorry mama! I can't even sit in a bubble bath without having issues, I can't imagine actually having that in my vagina!










to the pp who picked the epi. vs. tearing. Just because they cut you doesn't mean you won't also tear. With tearing you have that risk but with the episiotomy you STILL have the risk of tearing so now you have a cut and a rip through (and possibly beyond) the cut area. Also, just because they told you you'd tear doesn't mean you will. They told my DH that with my first birth and in the end gave me an episotomy. I was pissed but the dr. had my DH convinced I was going to tear in "all directions and have multiple tears to suture". Amazingly enough my second DD had the SAME head size and a larger chest than DD1 and I didn't tear. It's all situational but in the end it is better to tear naturally than it is to cut.


----------



## nia82 (May 6, 2008)

Narn, what happened afterwards? Any other letters? I'd love to know!


----------



## Narn (Nov 7, 2007)

Nothing since my last post! Well, Johnsons had me sign a paper so they could get a copy of my medical records, but I don't know if they ever got them. I ordered a copy of them myself. No where on any page does it say anything about the soap. Go figure.


----------



## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

Good to hear Johnson's is following up.

I cannot imagine the effects of this on me. I would have ended up with one heck of a yeast infection as even the occasional bubble bath flares them up in me.

Good for you for following up!


----------



## Awaken (Oct 10, 2004)

Well, now that I've read the whole thing, I have to sub!

Good for you, OP, for writing those letters and following up.

I've never heard of "cleaning" or lube-ing the vagina during birth- it's never been mentioned by any of my birth center or homebirth midwives. Why would it need to be cleaned- isn't the natural bacteria there beneficial for the baby? And if lubrication is needed then how are all these babies being born for millenia without it?

It's just puzzling to me to hear several of you say this is common practice!


----------

