# Does GD Breed Wild Children?



## sere234 (Feb 7, 2009)

Preface- I only have an 8 mo so there's really not much GD going on at all yet. And I readily admit I'm a new mom who knows little about all this stuff. I was a 4th grade teacher for 7 years so I've got about 200 kids that I've "helped" raise but other than that, nope, nothing.

Okay, I recently read How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and How To Listen So Kids Will Talk and Unconditional Parenting. Then I wrote a blog post about it here. When I posted a link to my blog post on Facebook, I got mostly "yeah right, that doesn't work in real life" comments from moms. I don't want to seem naive and clueless but I kinda feel that way now. Even though all their comments were kind, it really was like they were all rolling their eyes at me and laughing. Or maybe that's just how I interpreted it!









So- What is your experience? Does GD REALLY work? When DH and I attempt to raise our son this way, will he turn in to a wild hooligan? Right now I'm obviously very much against spanking and really even time outs. But I've never needed to do either to my kid! Then on the other hand, I don't want to raise mindless drone who obeys everything I say or a kid I need to punish/bribe all day.

I guess I just need some reassurance. Did your kids turn out respectful and well behaved? Is GD working for you? How do I NOT feel like I'm an innocent mama with my head in the clouds?!?!

Thanks


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## Mittsy (Dec 29, 2009)

Not at all!! All my friends who use GD have the sweetest most laid-back kids, sure some people think their wild but that's because they're acting like normal kids and most adults nowadays have forgotten what that looks like.

That being said my kids are wild, but if I were to use non GD techniques it would be worse. Fortunately my 2 really spirited kiddo's respond very well to GD. And, we only use UP, time-in, and NVC here.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Yes, I think it does. When you know there very little consequence for your actions.. you tend to get away with what you can.

One of my friend's kids was being GD'ed and he could throw a tantrum and get his way for the most crazy things. My friend would claim she was just "listening to him or respecting him as a person" but it entailed her going to the supermarket at 5:45 p.m. because he wanted a certain dinner menu that night.

If my kids had thrown the same tantrum, I would have sent them to their room to calm down and then shown them the appropriate other dinner choices like a peanut butter sandwich or a bowl of cereal. Not even my hubby can alter the dinner menu that late in the day.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Not in my experience. I think it depends on how you interpret GD and Alfie Kohn though. Neither style says not to have rules, discipline, or boundaries. Both approaches encourage being thoughtful of the rules, boundaries, and discipline that is used though. Alfie Kohn just seems to encourage much deeper thought and writes in a way that seems to be meant to challenge our beliefs so we can reflect on them but even he talks about setting some limits and not engaging in repetitive debate when the answer won't change. I think it is harder when kids are young and you are worried about them turning out badly, as they get older and you see that it really does work you will probably start to relax. Even parents who spank are often hardest on the first and ease up a lot as the kids get older or they have more kids because they see what a little thing most kid stuff is.


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## woodchick (Jan 5, 2007)

I don't think that GD breeds wildness. For us, GD has bred adventurous, confident, articulate, trusting, and fun children. They also happen to be a little wild sometimes.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Some kids will be wild no matter how they are raised. Some kids will be mild no matter how they are raised.

I don't think GD makes kids wilder than they would be otherwise. I think the only kind of parenting that would make children less wild would be if children were literally afraid of their parents, they would be less wild when their parents were present. But generally I don't think we have as much control over our kids' temperaments as we'd like to think we have.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> Yes, I think it does. When you know there very little consequence for your actions.. you tend to get away with what you can.
> 
> ...


Maybe I missed the boat somewhere, but I thought that some of the core tenents of GD (in addition to listening/respect) was setting boundaries as well as implementing consequences when those boundaries are breached. I think perhaps your friend was cherry-picking certain aspects of GD but not setting boundaries. To me, that is not GD, but no discipline at all.

OP, we have had a lot of success with GD. It is not to say that our DD's personality is easy to deal with at times, but others have commented on how well-mannered and respectful she is of others. She does have her wild moments (like any young child) but when she needs to step up to the plate, not just at home but in public, she's with the program, so to speak. I have neighbors who utilize corporal punishment and all kinds of punitive responses on their kids on a daily basis. Their kids don't understand boundaries though. I have to laugh when I think about it, but my DH in a fit of frustration the other day (after said kids were running through our apartment going through drawers and creating a mess) said: 'those kids are bad seeds.' I wouldn't go as far as saying something like that, but the general lack of respect that they have for others and the property of others is a little unnerving and living proof that the street runs both ways.


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## Emma Bryan Fuller (Dec 17, 2007)

To me gd is not about letting my kids get away with whatever they want or respecting and responding to their every wish. That way I think they would be selfish and maybe wild too! We gd and I think my kids are pretty normal, a little wild sometimes too but respectful. I guess only time will tell!


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## mamakay (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> Some kids will be wild no matter how they are raised. Some kids will be mild no matter how they are raised.
> 
> I don't think GD makes kids wilder than they would be otherwise. I think the only kind of parenting that would make children less wild would be if children were literally afraid of their parents, they would be less wild when their parents were present. But generally I don't think we have as much control over our kids' temperaments as we'd like to think we have.


Yep. Especially when they're little.

When they get older (around 6-8?) it's a little different, because it somewhat switches from "discipline" to more "instilling values, character, and morals," and on that end, GD (if we just define it as "non violent, no screaming, treat your kid with kindness and empathy") probably makes them less wild (compared to hitting and screaming, etc.)

That said, I do think UP probably would have been really, really bad for my "spirited" kid. He really seems to need a more authoritative and strict style of parenting to not be in a permanently bad mood. My mellow kid is only 3 and a half, but I think the only thing that would "make" her anything besides cooperative and happy would be abuse and neglect?


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

In order for us (I am referring to my family) to be successful GD parents we decided on some non-negotiable rules. They aren't very many, and they resolve around being respectful and polite and non-violent.

Quote:


> One of my friend's kids was being GD'ed and he could throw a tantrum and get his way for the most crazy things.


And this is not respectful or polite, or I would argue even GD. It is taking the "easy" way out, even though it will lead to bigger and bigger problems down the road.

GD is not being permissive. I think of it as picking the battles most important to you, keeping the family rules simply and clear, having clear and fair consequences, and not being punitive.


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## mamakay (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *oaktreemama*
> 
> In order for us (I am referring to my family) to be successful GD parents we decided on some non-negotiable rules. They aren't very many, and they resolve around being respectful and polite and non-violent.
> 
> ...


How do you define "punitive?"


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

Quote:


> How do you define "punitive?"


Over the top punishment designed to get back at a child for wrong doing. It is punishment as payback for the wrong doing-making it so personal and hurtful. We avoid that type of punishment at all costs.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

I can't speak for all kids, but I can speak for my own twin sons, who are almost 17 years old. They are polite, respectful, and have solid core values. In 1994 I had never heard of GD, but that's essentially what DH and I have done - treat our children with respect, set age-appropriate limits and enforce them with natural and logical consequences, and above all, be consistent.

That said, our kids have laways been good rule-followers. I realize that they have easy-going personalities, and would probably be pretty good kids no matter how they were raised - but I doubt we would have the same kind of relationship. The worst time we ever had with our sons was in 3rd grade, when J had a teacher who used punitive discipline. J didn't know how to deal with it, and responded by acting out, and not wanting to go to school at all. It took 2 years of really wonderful teachers to get him back to where he had been in school.

GD definitely does NOT mean no discipline - remember, discipline means "to teach", and all kids require teaching. I consider myself to be a pretty hard-nose parent, but that doesn't mean my sons were subjected to physical punishment or time-outs. It means that I made rules that were fair, and I enforced them consistently. In our house, the rules applied to the parents as well as the kids (if they can't eat popsicles on the white couch, neither can DH).

A simple example: bed time. The boys would periodically ask for a later bed time - after all, their freinds got to stay up later! I told them that bed time was determined by how much sleep they needed, and they had a time schedule in the morning that couldn't be changed (school). I said if they could consistently wake up on their own before the alarm went off, we would know that they were getting enough sleep, and they could stay up later. But if they needed an alarm (or Mom) to wake them up every day, they either were getting the right amount of sleep or not enough. We had the conversation several times over a few years, but eventually it stuck - and now, as high school juniors, my sons go to bed at a decent time every night (sometimes before I do).

I read "How to Talk..." when my sons were about 10, and I was already doing just about everything in the book. Another one I like is "Kids Are Worth It" by Barbara Coloroso.


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## mamakay (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *oaktreemama*
> 
> Over the top punishment designed to get back at a child for wrong doing. It is punishment as payback for the wrong doing-making it so personal and hurtful. We avoid that type of punishment at all costs.


Aahh...gotcha. Some people define punitive in such a way that any use of time out qualifies, so I was just wondering.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Wait, it the argument here that being kind and respectful to people while trying to understand their point of view and stating your own boundaries usually results in disrespectful behavior? When I'm kind and honest with adults, I tend to get honesty and kindness in return. I'm not sure why this would be different for children.

I think everyone needs to be able to state their own boundaries. It doesn't necessarily need to result in hard and fast rules (except perhaps not hurting others). I believe in behaving ethically. I think we're managing to give our kids that message without time outs, punishments, or rewards. Is it messy? Yes. We get frustrated with one another because we're human beings trying to get along and live together with constantly conflicting needs and desires. We can still be respectful of one another and demand respect without resorting to autocratic rule.


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## mamakay (Apr 8, 2005)

Are time outs and rewards "not GD?"


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Not all people who do GD use time outs and rewards, but I think of GD just as meaning discipline without harsh, physical, or shaming type punishments. As the words say, discipline that is gentle (and I would think emotionally as well as physicall gentle.) GD seems like an umbrella term that could include different specifics.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamakay*
> 
> Are time outs and rewards "not GD?"


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> Not all people who do GD use time outs and rewards, but I think of GD just as meaning discipline without harsh, physical, or shaming type punishments. As the words say, discipline that is gentle (and I would think emotionally as well as physicall gentle.) GD seems like an umbrella term that could include different specifics.


^Yes.

I believe that time outs and rewards as assumed tools are counter-productive to my goals, as they are as coercive as punishment, if not as harsh as corporal punishment. Not everyone believes that, I understand, but I feel like it's difficult to deny. I realize that most people seem them as tools to achieving a pleasant workable life.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> Yes, I think it does. When you know there very little consequence for your actions.. you tend to get away with what you can.
> 
> ...


GD does not mean consequence free, and consequences do not have to be physically or emoitonally harsh to be effective.

Maybe your friend just didn't think dinner or the subsequent going shopping was a battle worth standing her ground over (is 5:45 a particularly bad time to go shopping? I am sort of out of touch with US culture...is that like rush hour at the A & P?) at that time. If you've been fighting all day or say you made a promise you forgot about...it might be the right thing to do in that situation for HER. I don't think it's fair to judge the child's entire personality for now and ever after over one little incident like that...but I gather you have other examples to prove he is indeed a wild child as a resultof the parenting softness. Maybe she really is a push over and will have to find a balance between respecting herself and respecting her kids. I think it is very hard to teach our kids respect if we do not first and foremost foster a sense of respect for ourselves.

For many parents GD is a journey, a swinging pendulum that has gone far to one side as a result of harsh parents of their own, and a decision to do things differently, or a gut instinct to never hit the child and having no tools to implement other ways of communicating and teaching. It takes a few years, or even kids to get it right, and every day is a learning experience and a journey of self discovery. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. We are not born parents, we are made parents through trial and error.

In my experience harsh punishment based discipline (which don't seem to be what you would do anyway, so I guess I am confused) do not guarantee mild manner either. My niece has been spanked and screamed at forced physically into her room by having the door TIED shut and she is still wild and aggressive and rude at times (she is also sweet at times).

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woodchick*
> 
> I don't think that GD breeds wildness. For us, GD has bred adventurous, confident, articulate, trusting, and fun children. They also happen to be a little wild sometimes.


Me too. In fact for us GD has led to more self awareness, and more introspection as parents and a more open insightful relationship with our kids, in comparison with friends and family who have done things the harsher way. We are notably more open with him, more attentive, and respectful and we are careful not to hold double standards, because he calls us on it when we do. Maybe we would have had a kid like that anyway, but the anecdotal evidence I see around me tells me otherwise.

The thing is I think GD positions me more strategically for managing the wildness is more effective ways. Instead of expecting DS to behave no matter what and being sorely disappointed when ocassionally he doesn't, and starting a battle of dirty looks and threats and eventually name calling and punitive measures (sometimes Time Outs are for everyone to cool down and get a grip, but sometimes they are used as a way of revenge for bad behavior that might not even be their fault), I recognize cues and make choices accordingly. I know DS needs protein in his blood stream to be calm and happy. So I ALWAYS carry a snack with me. I know DD is a crank pot if she doesn't have her afternoon nursies and nap. I know they both are unpredictable after 5pm. So I don't take them places after 5pm if their behavior is important or going to be judged (nor do I invite people over who I think might be judgy) I had a party invite tonight and was told I could bring the kids but rather than bring them and have people say "what wild kids she has...what they need a smack on the bottom!" I thought better of it and have decided to send my regards and keep them home. I'll be at the party on Saturday when I have a babysitter lined up.

I think ultimately GD strives to build a relationship of intimacy and emotional connection, trust and consistency. It is about building a world of respect and safety and love for your children. It is about teaching our children to have empathy and to use that empathy to communicate their needs without violence and abuse and hopefully learn to recognize their needs, and ask for their needs to be met in respectful ways, and accept the responsibility of their own needs gracefully when others cannot help them. We also strive to show them the logical and natural consequences of their actions and choices, and be respectful of their journey of self discovery in this world in ways that are safe and gentle.

These are lofty goals, and no one that I know lives up to them at all times...but we aspire, and if nothing else we can teach our children to aspire for a better, less violent (passively and physically violent) world, too.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

For some reason this part did not pick up in my quote in my post above...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sere234*
> 
> So- What is your experience? Does GD REALLY work? When DH and I attempt to raise our son this way, will he turn in to a wild hooligan? Right now I'm obviously very much against spanking and really even time outs. But I've never needed to do either to my kid! Then on the other hand, I don't want to raise mindless drone who obeys everything I say or a kid I need to punish/bribe all day.
> 
> ...


So in a nutshell, yes it is working for us and DS has turned out great and things are really going well with DD, too, though at 16 months it's more baby management then discipline, but at this age with DS we were still heavily relying on TOs and frowning and mostly shouting to get our point across, then trying to counteract that with lots of hugs and talking it out to balance it. It took us a while to get past the hurt there and move into a better place with DS.

The thing is that it is hella difficult for a while to keep order and be the parent you want to be. It is hard to shake the habits of our parents, and the legacy they gave us with their own discipline methods. It is not easy to skip parties and fun stuff with friends and family and have to leave events because you realize that the only way you are going to get your kid to behave the way you need them to is with threats of violence, aggression, name calling, or bribing. It is not easy to be prepared at all times to meet the physical needs of your children that are keeping them from being golden sweet, and it is not easy to have the patience and presence of mind to not take deeply personally when they embarass you in front of others, or when they get mad, seem ungrateful, or swing at you or call you names. It is not easy to remain calm and detached but also loving and empathetic. It is not easy to observe their actions without judgement and find ways to meet their needs.

It's flipping EXHAUSTING! There are days when it is just easier to scream and shout,,,but the damage done to the trust and love is undeniable and very very difficult to repair.

It seems easy because after all, who would ever want to raise a hand to their child? But it's very time consuming and at times I feel like a huge failure. But then I see my kid interact with people of all ages like a confident equal, with respect and kindness and empathy, intellect and curiosity, and I think...not bad, lady, not bad!


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

My GD kiddo is no more or less wild or whiny than my friends kids who are raised with tons of yelling, shame, spanking and unnecessary/unfair time outs (I'm not against time outs but I do think there are many occasions where using them is inappropriate and hurtful.)

The main difference I see between our kids is that my child is easier to correct and will even correct herself at times when she does get wild and disrespectful and that my kiddo seems more confident and attached. She doesn't cling to me the same way my friend's children do and in fact her children (ages 4 and 2) act more similar to how mine did at 1 when she went through a huge separation anxiety/clingy phase.

Granted, there are plenty of variables that could be the cause of these differences including simply having different personalities (my daughter handles her daddy's deployment worlds better than her children, especially her 4 year old, does) and having two children of course can lead to more problems simply due to sibling rivalry and wanting plenty of mommy time but I definitely prefer not yelling and not shaming. It creates a more peaceful space even when my 2 year old is still acting like a two year old complete with whining and tantrums, and plenty of wild times.

I don't practice GD to have a better behaved child at all times, I practice to help my child learn how to correct herself and understand why she's doing that.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Yes I think that follwowing the GD tennets without also implementing reasonable limits or teaching children that respect needs to flow both to and from them can lead to children who don't have a sense of the needs of others, or how to operate respectfully in community.

That being said, I think that it's the exception rather than the rule that GD parents don't think through this and do their best to help their children navigate their way through the world successfully.

Most GD parents are pretty mindful.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> One of my friend's kids was being GD'ed and he could throw a tantrum and get his way for the most crazy things. My friend would claim she was just "listening to him or respecting him as a person" but it entailed her going to the supermarket at 5:45 p.m. because he wanted a certain dinner menu that night.


This isn't GD. This is being permissive and catering to a child's unreasonable demands. A GD way to handle a tantrum about an unreasonable request is to calmly comfort the child, labeling the child's emotion while not giving in. The main difference in handling a tantrum in a GD way is that the parent doesn't punish or isolate the child, but helps them deal with their overwhelming feelings. For example when a parent who is using GD has to leave a park abruptly because it's about to storm, she picks up her tantruming kicking and screaming toddler saying "I'm sorry you're sad, but we have to leave the park. Storms are dangerous." . Then when they are in the car there is no shouting, threatening or lecturing just calm sympathy and maybe a snack. It's not that a parent using GD doesn't say no, it's that they say no in a respectful way. It's the difference between using a time out or a time in. One is isolating and the other is a way of connecting and maybe an opportunity to teach the why behind the no.

Some people are permissive and call it GD. It's not though. GD is still discipline it's just gentle, nonviolent, more sympathetic and often calmer. It's saying something quietly instead of shouting. It's giving explanations along with the demand. It's stopping a dangerous behavior, then talking about it calmly instead of giving a consequence of some kind.

To the main question. I think acting like a little wild child is more a temperament issue than a discipline one. Some kids are just busier, more intense, more high energy than others. I think using GD is more work when they are little and have no impulse control but much less work as they get older. If you haven't been using punishment your child has no reason to hide things or sneak. If you've been discussing the whys behind all of your nos and boundaries, your child is more able to recognize good choices. My DD is very intense and high energy, but now at 5 is an empathetic, polite, charming but still busy kid. She doesn't get into stuff she's not supposed to have, she isn't destructive and plays on her own. When she is bossy or whiny, really normal 5 year old stuff, we let her know it's rude and not how we treat each other.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Yes, it really does work. I get comments on how polite and well-behaved my kids are all the time. People are particularly impressed with how well they behave when we're not around and how well they're able to articulate their feelings and concerns.

A great example from today:

Dd (age 6, nearly 7) was upset after school today because I can't go with her class on the field trip tomorrow. She sounded jealous and disappointed because she really wanted me to go. (As a university professor, I have a flexible schedule, but when the field trip starts at 9 am, and I teach at 9 am, I can't go.) She was whining. And crying.

I was having one of my better GD days, so instead of just sending her to her room to get her whines out (as I sometimes do), I invited her up to my room to snuggle on the bed. I did this because I knew that she'd been short on 'momma time' lately because I'd been sick last week, and as soon as I got well, dh came down with the stomach flu I'd had, and then ds got it. We'd been in survival mode for about a week.

We snuggled for a bit while dd cried. I did all the "How to Talk..." language and just let her cry. In a few minutes, it came out that she was nervous about being in a field trip group with a parent she didn't know. We talked. I asked her if it would help to call her teacher and tell her that dd wanted to be in a group with either the teacher or the aide. Dd sobbed that teacher had told them they didn't get to pick their groups. I told her that we could talk to her teacher, and that I bet we could work something out. I called school, talked to the teacher, and explained the situation. The teacher was relieved to know, and quickly changed dd's group. Dd had burst into tears at the end of the school day and had only told her teacher that she was sad that I couldn't come. Once I told dd that she would be in the aide's group, she cheered right up. Problem solved.

I guess my point of the long story is: If I hadn't done the whole "how to talk.." type validating dd's feelings, I would never have gotten to the bottom of what was bothering her. If I hadn't had the insight to know that what dd really needed was to snuggle, I wouldn't have been in a position to do the talk that got to the bottom of what was bothering her. As it was, we could, and the situation improved. I'm not always that insightful or patient, but it was enough for today. After we solved the 'problem' we spent a little time playing stuffed animals (Playful Parenting is another favorite parenting book.) The connection that we built lasted long enough that dd was able to weather her disappointment 30 minutes later of having to be dragged to her brother's baseball game with dad.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> Yes, I think it does. When you know there very little consequence for your actions.. you tend to get away with what you can.
> 
> ...


As others have argued, there's a difference between no discipline and gentle discipline. I would have done what you did and I consider it GD.

For example: My dd is free to show her emotions (and she's got a lot of big ones). She's not free to make the rest of the family miserable because of it. We're making progress I think. She was having issues tonight (she was tired, had had a big day) and was having a minor fit when she went up to brush her teeth. She closed the bathroom door while she brushed her teeth and had her little cry without inflicting it on the whole family. She fell asleep about 5 minutes after getting into bed, so I know being tired was the problem.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamakay*
> 
> How do you define "punitive?"


I would define it as something that's intended solely to make the child feel sorry or to make the 'pay' for what they did, with no thought to what they're learning from it. So, grounding your child because they mouthed off to you is punitive. Grounding your child for an evening because they couldn't stay away from a downed powerline is not. (The one and only time I ever got grounded as a child was in the downed powerline scenario. My parents didn't believe in grounding, and I don't either.)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamakay*
> 
> Are time outs and rewards "not GD?"


They can be. Is the time out because your child needs time to cool down? That's GD. Is it to make them 'pay' for their misbehavior? Then it's not. GD is much more subtle than it might appear at first glance. A lot of it depends on your reason and philosophy for doing things. As such, it really requires some pretty deep introspection, as others have noted. Why am I doing this? Why is my child doing this? What can help my child learn the skills they need?

As I noted above, our dd gets sent to her room fairly often. But it's not punitive. It's just that I can't stand to hear her whine. (It's getting better, but it's taken a lot of work on our part.)

I've done rewards sparingly. There's good evidence that if you use rewards you focus the child on external motivation and they often lose internal motivation. One of the basic 'tenets' of GD, as far as I'm concerned, is that you assume your child wants to do well, and you work with them to help that come through. So, I dont believe in rewards for things like daily chores or grades or general good behavior. At times, however, a child needs to learn a specific skill -- that skill could be learning to keep their hands to themselves and not hit or it could be learning to wipe their own bottom. In those cases, rewards can work wonders to teach a very specific thing. At least they worked wonders teaching my ds to wipe his own darn bottom. Dd is completely unmotivated by rewards!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treeoflife3*
> 
> I don't practice GD to have a better behaved child at all times, I practice to help my child learn how to correct herself and understand why she's doing that.


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## mintenpurcell (May 13, 2011)

It's true that when you have an eight-month-old, you really haven't been challenged in terms of your own limits, so it's hard to say what you'll do in the future when your kid does the sometimes shocking and horrible things they all do without knowing. Like, what will you do when your kid smashes his head against yours on purpose? Or bites you? Bites your friend's kid? Lies about another kid just to get the kid in trouble? There are endless discipline challenges ahead and it's hard to know how that will rub against your own past, trigger you in some way and make you want to scream. That said, I do think you are on the right path, but you also need something else as a parent to stay on that path, something that I don't think these books talks about. When things start to get tough, maybe in about two more years, or when you have your next child, you're going to need to take care of yourself by meditating or doing something that can center you when times get tough. And they will. And you will want to yell or put your kid in time out or even criticize. It's hard to imagine now, but every attached parent I know has lost it or lost themselves at some time. I don't think gentle discipline leads to a wild kid. No discipline or inconsistent discipline does. You will need to say no. You will need to remove your child from situations. Instead of a time out, for example, when your child bites a kid, you lovingly leave the playdate. No second chances. You are still with your child, loving them, but they have lost the privilege to continue playing. If your child lies to get another child in trouble, they need to apologize in person to all people concerned and do something that they come up with to make up for what they've done. So you aren't spanking (aka beating) your child, you aren't sticking them in time-out (aka prison/rejection) and you aren't criticizing them (aka destroying their self-esteem). You are showing them that when they hurt another person, the fun for everyone ends and later, you're making them take responsibility for their actions when they are old enough.


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## sissah (Mar 21, 2011)

I don't believe it leads to wild children. Like everyone else, I think inconsistant parenting does. My 4 1/2 year old certainly has the energy level of a 4 1/2 year old, but he's much more calm than the kids at many of his activities whose parents just ignore their children's behavior. He's not wild or out of control.

In our house, decisions have consequences, and he knows that. For instance, he gets the same meals as my husband and I. He has the choice of not eating whatever I put in front of him, but he knows there will be no other food until the next meal. If it's dinner and there was a desert, I remind him as he's choosing, that he wont get the desert his father & I will be having, because he has to eat the healthy to get any junk. He knows we wont say that and not follow through, so, most nights, he eats with no issues (and he eats stuff most of our friends are amazed at, but he doesn't get seperate meals). Every now and then, he chooses not to, and he doesn't eat until breakfast. It's his choice, and I'm fine with him making that choice. He doesn't throw a fit about it, he either eats or he doesn't.

We do occasionally use time outs, which I know some people are okay with under GD and others are not. We used them by removing him from situations he was unable to handle (our big time out getters are violence and being cruel to someone else), and time out consisted of us talking to him about what was going on - why it's never okay to hit anyone, even pets. What that does to the person/animal you're hitting, etc. Now, we almost never need to take time outs, and he'll occasionally say, I need some time alone, and go to his room. He chooses to remove himself from a situation that is too much for him to handle. We give him his space, and he comes back when he feels better.

It works for us, and I do think it works for most people if consistancy is key. If there's no consistancy - he whines about dinner one night and gets a fluffernutter, why wouldn't he whine every night? And kids are smart - they remember very well when they were given into, and it's not a hard leap to get to, well, if I keep whinning, maybe they give in again.


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## sissah (Mar 21, 2011)

Also, I think it's funny to add that we don't yell at our kid, we've never hit him, and we just talk him through any issues, yet we've been told how strict we are as parents. Because we don't ingore discipline. There's definitely a difference.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

I'm in the camp of Some are wild no matter what and some are mild no matter what.

DD1 is 5. She can be incredibly high needs and challenging. Some people are shocked at how full on she is. Some tell me she's a normal child and my expectations are crazy. Some people tell me my attempts at GD have made her act how she does, some have told me doing GD "wrong" has made her act like she does. Whatever, it's always agreed that anything she does is my fault (and she agrees too!). I don't smack but i sure want to. Sometimes when i've tried every single suggestion in the GD handbooks and DD is throwing my efforts back in my face i wonder why i don't smack, but i still don't.

Her sister is only 11 months old but is already INCREDIBLY mellow by comparison. Maybe she will be easier on me to raise, maybe she won't.

Ultimately i practice GD so *I* can have peace that i tried my best at the way i thought was best. I don't expect it to bring about wild/tame/perfect/terrible people. I think that parenting cannot overcome personality.


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## kcparker (Apr 6, 2008)

GD doesn't breed wildness because the child knows that there are rules and boundaries, but they are supported through gentle guidance and loving assistance, not through draconian measures. Some kids do have more of a fire in the belly or mischief in the heart, but I think they'd end up less wild with GD than with a more authoritarian style of child-rearing.

I think that Kohn is right that kids will ultimately "do as we do, and say what we say, but they will not do what we say" if our actions are not in line with our professed values.

GD principles (I think) will push you towards being an authoritative parent (as opposed to authoritarian or permissive).GD principles help the parent be the one who guides, sets age-appropriate boundaries and limits, and allows kids to make mistakes, learn consequences, and figure out how to become a polite, respectful, resourceful person over the course of the 18+ years that the child is in your house. Respect breeds respect -- GD encourages the parent to look at situations through the child's eyes and to have empathy, even when your kid is misbehaving. GD does not punish a child in order to shame, humiliate, or cow them into submission.

I think it's also true that if kids don't have rigid boundaries, they have less to push against and tend not to get as wild. I often think of what a horseback riding instructor of mine told me about how to hold the reins: "Think of the reins as little birds. You don't want to hold them so loosely that the bird flies away, nor so tight that you crush it to death."


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## kcparker (Apr 6, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *annakiss*
> I believe that time outs and rewards as assumed tools are counter-productive to my goals, as they are as coercive as punishment, if not as harsh as corporal punishment. Not everyone believes that, I understand, but I feel like it's difficult to deny. I realize that most people seem them as tools to achieving a pleasant workable life.


I can see a time-out or reward be either appropriate or inappropriate. So much depends on the situation and the child.

Example: Kid is throwing food on the floor at dinner.

If it's a 10 month old, taking kid away from table is not appropriate to that developmental stage. Useless punishment.

If it's my 3 1/2 year old, my response at this point is: "Throwing food is impolite, and we practice good manners at the table so everyone can enjoy their meal. You have a choice: you can stop throwing food on the floor, or you can be exucsed from the table until you are ready to come back with a dustpan and whisk broom. I will help you clean it up, and you can resume the meal with us. Which one do you want to do?" If he picks former and continues the behavior, he is told that he is now excused and can leave the table, the food is moved aside, and he's told he can finish it when he's ready.

If we are at a restaurant, I'd take the him to the bathroom or outside for a time-in, talk about manners (maybe I'd suggest we play a game of being posh or something to refocus him on manners once we are back). If it seemed like he was just too tired/wired/crazy and we needed to cut bait and leave the restaurant, we would. (This has never happened. He is super-good at restaurants. The home scenario has happened though).

I would not give a reward to get a kid to stop whining for candy in a grocery store or for cleaning up something I had asked him to clean up. But if you need a little encouragement to get over a hump with potty-learning, a sticker chart or a jar of M&Ms seems like an okay motivator. I would also feel fine about asking the kid to sit through something distasteful with the promise of relief at the end -- I am asking you to be polite and quiet while I make this business call. After I am done, I will go outside with you and we can play. To me, that is okay and not coercive. It recognizes that these things are hard for kids and that he should be 'rewarded' for being held on a tight rein with getting to run wild for a little while.

But at 3 1/2, we are still in the 'easy' stage of parenting with fairly concrete issues rather than more nuanced emotional and social ones.


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## woodchick (Jan 5, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kcparker*
> 
> I think that Kohn is right that kids will ultimately "do as we do, and say what we say, but they will not do what we say" if our actions are not in line with our professed values.


Is this a direct Kohn quote? I really like it and hope you remember where it is from... I haven't read much Kohn, but I will, if just to find this quote


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## frugalmum (Nov 5, 2009)

It depends on the child... it works great with some kids and with others you need more of a hybrid approach. I have to be very stern/ strict with one of my DD in a way that would not be considered AP but I always stick to the basic AP/GD tenant of no physical discipline, no verbal demeaning. Yet with other of my kids AP/GD works like a charm.


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## new2this (Feb 11, 2010)

I am not there yet as I only have an 8 month old as well and this is something DH and I have been talking about more and more because we know where we fall but not exactly on the same page and this is one area where we both know in order to be effective we do have to be on the same page. I know DH is more of a authoritative person where as I am somewhere in the middle. I know we will have high expectations and certain things just are not negotiable. However my biggest hurdle is DH and he is getting better at it but realizing what is age appropriate development wise. Like right now DD has tantrums when she don't get what she wants. Redirection at this point is a 50/50 shot with her she wants what she wants and that it on some things..lol

I think from my own experience on the outside looking in, that often times it isn't the form of discipline that fails as much as it is the parent who failed at it. I think GD can be a very valuable way to do things just as I think it can also do unintended damage if not done right if the person don't understand it.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

One important thing about tantrums is that having tantrums is how a LO learns to deal with overwhelming emotions. It's developmentally useful and is a step toward eventual emotional maturity. So you don't want to discourage them but support your DC when tantrums occur. Trying to make all the tantrums stop can lead your toddler to ignore their emotions instead of learn to deal with them. That can mean they never become emotionally mature. Sure tantrums are annoying in a 2 year old, but more socially debilitating in a 22 year old.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CatsCradle*
> 
> Maybe I missed the boat somewhere, but I thought that some of the core tenents of GD (in addition to listening/respect) was setting boundaries as well as implementing consequences when those boundaries are breached. I think perhaps your friend was cherry-picking certain aspects of GD but not setting boundaries. To me, that is not GD, but no discipline at all.


I agree with you one hundred percent.

Unfortunately, the "no discipline at all in the guise of GD" is often what you see described here on MDC (and elsewhere). It is easy to come away from an encounter with someone like this with the impression that GD means never saying no, never setting boundaries, always respecting the child's desires no matter how disruptive to the family - all on the theory that to do otherwise is somehow to "stifle" the child's spirit.


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## kcparker (Apr 6, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woodchick*
> 
> Is this a direct Kohn quote? I really like it and hope you remember where it is from... I haven't read much Kohn, but I will, if just to find this quote


It might have been from How to Talk So Your Kids Will Listen, but I am pretty sure it's Kohn from Playful Parenting...I read those books simultaneously, so they are sort of mushed together in my brain.


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## woodchick (Jan 5, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kcparker*
> 
> It might have been from How to Talk So Your Kids Will Listen, but I am pretty sure it's Kohn from Playful Parenting...I read those books simultaneously, so they are sort of mushed together in my brain.


Thanks! I'll keep my eye out for it


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## sweetpeppers (Dec 19, 2007)

quote: "Why am I doing this? Why is my child doing this? What can help my child learn the skills they need?"

Good things to remember. I think I will have to write them on the wall.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kcparker*
> 
> It might have been from How to Talk So Your Kids Will Listen, but I am pretty sure it's Kohn from Playful Parenting...I read those books simultaneously, so they are sort of mushed together in my brain.


Actually, the author of Playful Parenting is Larry Cohen, not to be confused with Alfie Kohn, who wrote Unconditional Parenting. I'm a huge fan of Playful Parenting. Unconditional Parenting has some good ideas, but I suspect it would be better for someone who's trying to shift away from a punitive mindset. Playful Parenting has really really helped me look at what I do with my kids and how spending positive time with them really pays off. Dd and I spent a good 30 minutes playing stuffed animals today and ds and I spent 15 minutes playing kitchen basketball (nerf hoop). The connection we get from spending time doing this helps us weather the rough times.


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## sere234 (Feb 7, 2009)

Thank you all SOOOO much for your replies!! They really helped me understand GD much better and know that we can raise our son respectfully. I'm going to send a link to this thread to my hubby so we can both stay on the same page (no pun intended!). And I'm going to save and print some of your responses that really helped me see what this GD 'thing" is all about!

I appreciate it so much!!


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## kcparker (Apr 6, 2008)

Playful Parenting is Larry Cohen, not to be confused with Alfie Kohn, who wrote Unconditional Parenting.

Thanks for correcting that - my brain is apparently even more mushed than I realized. Kohn almost = Cohen, and yeah, it's Playful Parenting that I was thinking of.


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## 1love4ever (Jan 5, 2011)

I have not had much experience with GD and would like to learn more. I would like to share my own experience though. From the time I was extremely young, I was spanked for every little thing that my mother thought I did wrong. The older I got, the harder and longer she would spank me for. I would have bruises and red marks on my butt (she pulled down my pants and beat me with a large plastic spoon). I did not respect her at all, and as I got older I got more and more violent and had problems controlling my anger. If I got mad at someone, I would want to hit them right away, just like she did to me. When I was of about equal strength as she was, about age 11, and she would try to hit me, I would hit her back. She eventually stopped hitting me because I was strong enough to take away her "weapon", and started sending me to my room for hours on end and if I came out she would threaten everything under the sun including locking me up and starving me.

From the time all this started I would fly into rages when I got mad. I was definitly wild because I was taught by example that violence and yelling was the correct response to the feeling of anger or frustration, and since I was angry a lot of the time because of how I felt inside, I would always yell at people and would go and hit things and break things just to try to let out some of my anger but it never really worked, I was so angry inside. I also hated my parents for treating me this way. I was not open with them at all because I felt like they didnt love me because of how they treated me. I was also depressed a lot of the time, and thought about suicide a lot. I remember telling my parents I was going to call child services and they told me that I would go to a orphanage and be starved and abused and be taken away from all my friends and family, so I never did. Also note that I was raised out of town away from any sort of civilization, which I think also contributed to my depression because I had no friends or contact with other people.

Now that I am a mother of a 15 month old, I am ashamed to say this, but every time I get frustrated with her for doing something wrong, I have the urge to hit her. I do not hit her. But it comes into my mind every time she does something "bad". I truely believe this is because of how I was raised. So not only did my mothers behavior towards me have a negative effect on me as a child, but it has carried over to myself as an adult. I pray every day for self control and for these thoughts and urges not to come to my mind. I know how demeaning it can be to be treated this way as a child so I would never do this to my own children.


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## msmiranda (Apr 22, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *1love4ever*
> 
> I have not had much experience with GD and would like to learn more. I would like to share my own experience though. From the time I was extremely young, I was spanked for every little thing that my mother thought I did wrong. The older I got, the harder and longer she would spank me for. I would have bruises and red marks on my butt (she pulled down my pants and beat me with a large plastic spoon). I did not respect her at all, and as I got older I got more and more violent and had problems controlling my anger. If I got mad at someone, I would want to hit them right away, just like she did to me. When I was of about equal strength as she was, about age 11, and she would try to hit me, I would hit her back. She eventually stopped hitting me because I was strong enough to take away her "weapon", and started sending me to my room for hours on end and if I came out she would threaten everything under the sun including locking me up and starving me.
> 
> ...


It is so hard to transcend the way you were raised. My mother had elements of the kind of authoritarian nature you describe, and it is because of how she was raised ... although I think on some level she knew how bad it was and tempered it compared to her own upbringing. It is so much easier to be authoritarian than to practice GD, because to some extent authoritarian parenting can "work" in the short term in the sense that the child might temper her behavior out of fear of being hit (I know this was the case for me), and because you don't have to compromise with your child, you're the boss and they have to do what you say.

Given the abuse you suffered as a child, have you thought about seeing someone? It's pretty easy to resist hitting a 15 month old -- it is much harder to resist hitting when they get older. (Ask me how I know this). Otherwise, I would just concentrate on being as prepared as possible to deal with those moments when your child is doing something you need to correct. Have nonviolent consequences in mind and use them consistently, whether that is time out or something else, or different things depending on the situation (e.g. tantrum in a store = leaving the store, running away at the playground = go straight home). That way you have an alternative when you are tempted to hit. Good luck and hugs to you.


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## 1love4ever (Jan 5, 2011)

How sweet you are, thank you for understanding. Both of my parents were raised the way that I was raised, probably to a worse extent than they raised me. I think that definatly has something to do with it. I am determined to break the pattern. I will keep in mind what you said. I guess considering how I was raised, I would not care if GD did lead to wild children, I would much rather have my child be wild than to feel the humiliation, hopelessness and fear that comes with the style of parenting that I was raised with. And considering that authoritarian parenting leads to so much more, I would certainly say that GD is by far the best choice any parent can make (regarding discipline)


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

I have not read all the responses, so someone may have made this distinction already, but I'll go ahead.

I think GD does not breed wild children -- the first few responses that I did read were mostly right on. Where I think new parents may be a little naive is in thinking that GD will be easy or that they will "never" _____ (fill in the blank: use time out, yell, feel like spanking, over-react out of anger, etc.) The reality of parenting is humbling, to say the least. You will make mistakes and do things that you regret. But that's a life lesson in and of itself! You scoop up your L.O., apologize, and go on. You get better with time, but you never get perfect. And thank goodness for that -- who would want to have a perfect parent? Talk about pressure, lol!

So if your friends are saying GD won't work, they are wrong. If they are saying that it will be harder than you expect, they are right. Still, you do best going into it with a positivity and optimism. Parenting is a long-term project! (You'll do great!)


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *1love4ever* 


> I guess considering how I was raised, I would not care if GD did lead to wild children, I would much rather have my child be wild than to feel the humiliation, hopelessness and fear that comes with the style of parenting that I was raised with.


I was abused as a child, and feel the way you do. I treat my kids the way I do because it is, IMHO, the right way for me to treat them. Not because I'm trying to force them to be a certain way.

My kids are 13 and 14 now, and they have their moments (like all kids) but over all they are really super kids. Having only had GD didn't turn them into monsters, neither did it cause them to be perfect. They just are who they are. They are far more open and honest with me than many of their peers are with their parents, and I think that knowing that they are always SAFE is part of that.

Rather than humilation, hopelessness and fear, they have positive sense of self, they know they ALWAYS loved (even when they make a mistake), they dream about their futures, they know they are safe, and they know that their dad and I will always, always be there for them. It's a really great foundation for the teen years.

I have spent lots of time in therapy, and I've different issues from my childhood come up at different stages of my kids development. I think that owning my own sh*t is part of the reason that I've been able to break the family pattern.


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## mandomom (Jan 27, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mittsy*
> 
> That being said my kids are wild, but if I were to use non GD techniques it would be worse. Fortunately my 2 really spirited kiddo's respond very well to GD. And, we only use UP, time-in, and NVC here.


What are these techniques? (or where can I find out more about them.) I'm finding that I need to figure out *how* to discipline my 3 year old daughter. Until now its been fairly easy, but she is really testing limits. We don't want to have to have a household that is completely centered around her at all times in order to have harmony. I think this is "spoiling" her.


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## mommahhh (Oct 17, 2004)

I think if it is done properly it is great. To me, gentle discipline is about being respectful and kind and not punishing out of anger. Yet still being firm and having guidelines and enforcing boundaries. However, some people I know seem to confuse GD with no discipline. I can tell you that does produce wild children.







I have a good friend who I can barely handle being around anymore because her child is so whinnnnnnnny. It is stressful to even spend 2 hours with them. She is nearly 4. We can barely talk because she is extremely needy and whiny (i.e. even if we are going for a walk or at a playground, she yells if we try to talk). I just want to clarify that she does not have any special needs, but she is what my mom would call "spoiled". lol

My stomach literally hurts after being in her company from the incessant whining. She will ask the same question over and over, louder and louder if she does not like the answer. She yells at us to BE QUIET if we try to talk to each other. She kicks the back of my seat if we are in the car. She argues with every single thing (ex: "no, the grass is NOT green!!"







). She destroys other people's property (she tries to draw on my child's stuffed animals with markers, breaks her pencils etc). She *likes* us, by the way, so I can't imagine how she acts with people she doesn't like. But the point of all this is that I think her mom is setting her up for failure. She is never firm with her. She never tells her to stop it, to be quiet, etc. Everything is always: "okayyyy honey". So of course the child has no idea that she is doing anything wrong. What exactly is this teaching her? I think you can still be gentle while teaching your child the basics of socially acceptable behavior.

This family really wants to go on vacation with us and I have to say no because my DH would absolutely lose his mind after one day of the whining and general "bratiness".


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## sunnygir1 (Oct 8, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mommahhh*
> 
> I think if it is done properly it is great. To me, gentle discipline is about being respectful and kind and not punishing out of anger. Yet still being firm and having guidelines and enforcing boundaries. However, some people I know seem to confuse GD with no discipline. I can tell you that does produce wild children.
> 
> ...


I understand your point about boundaries, but I just have to say that some of us are really whiny even if our parents have good boundaries. My mom raised 6 kids, and one of them (me) was ridiculously whiny. Later, when her best friend had a horrible whiner, she used to say that me turning out okay gave her hope for her son! ; )

I think I do a pretty good job with my kids, but I swear I cannot make a phone call without being interrupted by whining, crying, yelling, or insistent requests from one or both of them. It does make it difficult to maintain relationships with my friends sometimes! Ds is 20 months, so I'm not surprised he demands my attention when I'm on the phone, but dd is 4, and she still does it. I find it very difficult to deal with in the moment (while I'm on the phone). I wonder if my friends think my child is impossible to be around.


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## csekywithlove (Feb 25, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *1love4ever*
> 
> I have not had much experience with GD and would like to learn more. I would like to share my own experience though. From the time I was extremely young, I was spanked for every little thing that my mother thought I did wrong. The older I got, the harder and longer she would spank me for. I would have bruises and red marks on my butt (she pulled down my pants and beat me with a large plastic spoon). I did not respect her at all, and as I got older I got more and more violent and had problems controlling my anger. If I got mad at someone, I would want to hit them right away, just like she did to me. When I was of about equal strength as she was, about age 11, and she would try to hit me, I would hit her back. She eventually stopped hitting me because I was strong enough to take away her "weapon", and started sending me to my room for hours on end and if I came out she would threaten everything under the sun including locking me up and starving me.
> 
> ...


My mother was abused as a child. Her and her five siblings were the product of incessant beatings. This was in the 1950s when you could get away with anything towards women and children. All my life I have heard how my mother would get jolted awake as the covers were pulled from her and a switch came down full force on her legs. Other aunts and uncles have also told me horror stories about my grandparents. Luckily my grandmother, not so much my grandfather, realized that what they had done to their children was wrong. I have a great relationship with my grandmother and my mother and her seem to have resolved most issues.

My mom and dad did discipline us. But because of my mom's abuse, my dad was the one who did the spanking or had any physical contact with us when we were in trouble. My mom never hit me. She only spanked me one time. And really they are great parents. She breastfeed both my brother and me, we co slept for years, she was involved at school, held down a full time job, etc. But make no mistake she was emotionally unavailable at times. She had to separate herself from us at times. Not physically but emotionally to keep herself in check.

You sound like you are aware and doing a great job with your daughter. I would definitely look into GD. Best of luck.


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## 1love4ever (Jan 5, 2011)

Thanks everyone for the information, I am starting to get a grasp on the concept of GD. Like I said, I would never hit DD, but I really need other alternatives, otherwise I am the type who would do NO discipline, which I do not think works! Does anyone feel that there is a connection between when a person was a child, being left to cry themselves to sleep every night and never co-sleeping, and hating to go to bed as an older child, teenager and even adult? I feel that there is a connection because this is what my parents did to me (my mother has also given me this advice with my DD but I would never let her cry herself to sleep, especially as a newborn. We have always co-slept. I have learned to follow my own instincts instead of the advice of others), and as a teenager I would stay up as long as I could stand it, just reading, watching TV, cleaning, anything. I do the same thing now, and I hate it, but I hate going to bed even more. Going to bed for the night just has a bad and unappealing feeling to it. I read something about this once but I dont remember what it was. I guess this is just another example of why parents really should listen to their hearts when it comes to their children.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I have a 21 year old and we GD. She is one of the nicest, most respectful people I know. I never even had to deal with the usual teen attitude, but I think some of that is because of homeschooling.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *1love4ever*
> 
> Does anyone feel that there is a connection between when a person was a child, being left to cry themselves to sleep every night and never co-sleeping, and hating to go to bed as an older child, teenager and even adult? .... as a teenager I would stay up as long as I could stand it, just reading, watching TV, cleaning, anything.


My DDs are 13 and 14. They both BF with child led weaning (I tandum nursed), they co-slept until they were about 4 or 5, they've only known GD.

They would love to stay up all night watching comedy central or reading science fiction. They are both pretty darn normal!

We had a slumber party here Saturday and some of the girls (including my 13 year old) were still up at 6:00 am -- they didn't even look tired!

They do tell me often that they love me and that I'm a wonderful mother. And they say that when they have kids, they want to parent pretty much the way I have.

I think that part of the lack of sleep thing for teens is that there are a lot of thing they enjoy and they have trouble turning it off. Sleep just isn't that interesting. They want to go, do, talk, experience.


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## Mittsy (Dec 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mandomom*
> 
> What are these techniques? (or where can I find out more about them.) I'm finding that I need to figure out *how* to discipline my 3 year old daughter. Until now its been fairly easy, but she is really testing limits. We don't want to have to have a household that is completely centered around her at all times in order to have harmony. I think this is "spoiling" her.


*Unconditional Parenting(UP) is not a technique, it's more a set of guidelines we try to keep in mind when disciplining.

*Time-in is directing the child to a spot of their choosing to cool down, with or without the parent, their choice, and they can use whatever means they please to help them cool down.

*Non Violent Communication(NVC) is a way of talking to people, it's especially useful in times os stress and upset. It's about noticing, and identifying people's feelings and needs, and working together for a outcome that everyone can live with. Here are 2 amazing books about it, the second one is a parenting/discipline book.

http://www.amazon.com/Nonviolent-Communication-Language-Marshall-Rosenberg/dp/1892005034/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1306163462&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Respectful-Parents-Kids-Conflict-Cooperation/dp/1892005220/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1306163462&sr=8-15


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

Depends, some people say GD when what they really mean is no discipline. Unless the child is naturally disciplined, which is not common, and did not need parents, then that child will end up with a lot of problems. Other people just mean without being abusive...and then everything else in between. I try to be creative and I don't hit. A parent needs to recognize when there is a serious problem. They need to be stable and consistent and calm in dealing with things. Some parents cannot handle disciplining their children. Those are the children who will have troubles. The rest are fine.


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## 1love4ever (Jan 5, 2011)

Linda On the Move, I guess I meant more like a person who does not want to stay up but dreads the thought of going to bed even more, even though there is no apparent reason for this dread. As a teenager I was not allowed to watch much TV accept for a few movies that I had seen hundreds of times. What I meant by staying up and watching TV was watching these same old movies that I really did not even want to watch, just so I didnt have to go to bed because I hated that even more.... It makes no sense to me either. And as an adult I am still that way. I am a little better when DH is around, but he travels for work a lot so I am alone with DD a lot. And even though she is in my bed sleeping, waiting for me, I still can not stand the thought of going to bed so I stay up til my eyes water and I cant think or see straight, then I finally go to bed when I am only half functional.


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *1love4ever*
> 
> Linda On the Move, I guess I meant more like a person who does not want to stay up but dreads the thought of going to bed even more, even though there is no apparent reason for this dread. As a teenager I was not allowed to watch much TV accept for a few movies that I had seen hundreds of times. What I meant by staying up and watching TV was watching these same old movies that I really did not even want to watch, just so I didnt have to go to bed because I hated that even more.... It makes no sense to me either. And as an adult I am still that way. I am a little better when DH is around, but he travels for work a lot so I am alone with DD a lot. And even though she is in my bed sleeping, waiting for me, I still can not stand the thought of going to bed so I stay up til my eyes water and I cant think or see straight, then I finally go to bed when I am only half functional.


I have the same issues as you with not wanting to go to bed despite being tired and wanting to sleep and not enjoying what I'm doing in place of going to bed. I too have wondered if it is related to how my mom handled bedtime/nighttime with me as a baby and toddler. I know my own two year old really enjoys going to bed and will ask to go when I'm running late on bedtime. It could simply be a temperament thing but it would make for an interesting topic... how does CIO as a baby and toddler affect someone's enjoyment of bedtime and night time, especially when alone, as they grow older?


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treeoflife3*
> 
> I have the same issues as you with not wanting to go to bed despite being tired and wanting to sleep and not enjoying what I'm doing in place of going to bed. I too have wondered if it is related to how my mom handled bedtime/nighttime with me as a baby and toddler.


I've been mulling this over since yesterday and I can really see what you guys mean, and I used to be the same way.

I've really gotten over it, and it wasn't even trying to get over it! I have a consistent yoga and meditation practice, and the combination helped me find the quiet place inside myself, which solved my going to bed/falling asleep/staying asleep problems.

I think that it's possible to grow past this, or relax past this, if you want to and are willing to give it time. Practicing being quiet with myself on my yoga mat ended up being practice for being quiet with my self at nighttime.

I think that allowing ourselves space to heal from what we never got as babies/children can help us lead more functional and happier lives as adults.


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## robinia (Jul 27, 2009)

Originally Posted by *1love4ever* 
I guess considering how I was raised, I would not care if GD did lead to wild children, I would much rather have my child be wild than to feel the humiliation, hopelessness and fear that comes with the style of parenting that I was raised with.

I agree with this and what Lindaonthemove said. When DS was born I was determined not to smack and resigned to the fact that this meant I would have a wild, crazy child who would run on the road. I literally didn't know that there was any other way to discipline. I was, in fact, thrilled when Supernanny first came out because of this wonderful thing called time out that meant I could have a reasonably behaved child without smacking. (I still think that time out is a very useful resource for parents who were raised with violence, so that they have something else to do when their own programming is telling them to hit.) While googling around for more information on this amazing innovation, I found a result that talked about problems with (punitive) time out. I thought it must be a typo, clicked through and found mdc, where the wise mothers were saying that they used GD, not to get well behaved kids, but because it was right.

I still would rather have my kids be badly behaved than feel like I did at their ages. Interestingly DS is generally very well behaved, and DD is considered a model child at daycare, but they are both very intense and dramatic (each in their own way) in a way that is quite foreign to H and me - both of us very calm, restrained and quiet most of the time. I have wondered where they get it from, but I wonder now whether we would both also have been more like our kids if we hadn't been smacked for being too loud, talking back, contradicting, whining etc.

On the sleep issue, I have such vivid memories of lying awake for hours in the dark, scared of the monsters. I can't help but agree that better night-time parenting might lead to adults who don't stay up too late to avoid bed, or even routinely send themselves to bed too early, then lie awake feeling stressed.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> Yes, I think it does. When you know there very little consequence for your actions.. you tend to get away with what you can.
> 
> ...


I tend to agree with this. BUT with the caveat that there are so many different parenting techniques that fall under the umbrella of "Gentle Discipline", so I can't believe that ALL of them, for ALL families, will result in spoiled kids. But it can. I've seen it. As far as GD meaning different things to different people....well, for example, for some parents GD = no spanking, and I know that that works for many, many families. I've also seen kids who are spanked and who are, still, spoiled and "wild"....so go figure.

I think that "getting it right" has something to do with winning respect from your children. If they respect you, then they will WANT to obey you. They will want to behave appropriately and not cause chaos and unhappiness in the family unit because they know that that's what you expect from them and they don't want to disappoint you. I think it's profoundly insulting and probably damaging to lower our expectations of our children to the point where, literally, just about "anything goes". In other words...if your children truly respect you, your authority will be a given, it will just be what IS....so you won't have to constantly be running around threatening and punishing and bullying your kids in order to get them to behave.

And alternately, your kids won't walk all over you and habitually attempt to manipulate you because a.) they know it won't work, and b.) knowing that you'll see through them, they won't want to disappoint you. I believe that a child is more likely to naturally respect his parents if he knows that he can't manipulate them. And that knowledge also, IMO, will breed a certain amount of security in the child as well. He knows that mama can't be swayed by hysterics and nonsense....ie: he knows that mama is strong and understands him and can/will protect him from everything-- even, when necessary, from his own strong emotions and spiraling mis-behavior. Which is what I believe a lot of tantrum-ing children do feel. (A lot, but obviously not not all of them....kids are different and there's no way I know the motivations of every child out there). I believe a lot of the time they feel out of control and they want their parents to bring them back down to earth, so to speak. They want - they need - to lean on the strength and steadiness and unconditional love of their parents.


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

Depends. I've seen people take it too far. I don't think children learn to respect anyone or anything through having every last whim catered to. That said, the younger they are, the shorter the wait shall be---my older kids know that the 2 year old gets the first drink poured, ice cream cone made, whatever "because he's little and can't wait" (as well!) I don't think they learn a darn thing through being allowed to be loud in places where quiet is the expectation, or snacking in eating-prohibited places. I have young children. They eat before and after and survive just fine. When we go to someone else's home, I expect them to do things like remove shoes at the door, listen to the adults there and respect their rules for their home. Simple. That said, I just plain out do not take my 2 year old to the library because he's NOT quiet, and I consider that part of GD....don't take them into environments where they most likely won't do well in the first place.

Oh..and if we take toys into a place with lots of other kids, like a playground, we share. They do not HAVE to bring a treasured item into the mix. It can stay home or in the car. But I don't see what positive thing they learn from other kids ending up sad. We make that decision *before* we're confronted with the other child who thinks their treasures look cool too.

I also have found that my own comfort level plays a huge part in how well *they* do....I just don't take all 4 of them places where I'm not confident it's going to go well. They sense that, and it doesn't.

And I just plain out don't do things I hate--like taking more than one of them to the grocery store. I just don't do it.  I'd rather have several root canals.

Lately I am happily getting tons of "discipline miles" out of the fact that I control the computer passwords. Also my DD especially responds to natural stuff like "well, you (or you and your sibling) made a mess at dinner, now you (all who were involved) are going to clean it up" She's FOUR, of course I help, but she is there working alongside me before she gets to go off and play. Sure, they have the option of saying 'no' but until they've done that or helped with something, I'm not typing in a password 

My other biggest and hardest thing is delivery. These 'edicts' CANNOT be delivered in an angry way. If I'm very matter-of-fact "nope, not now, we need to clean up your mess' it happens. If I'm ticked off and show it, it's a battle.


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## mntnmom (Sep 21, 2006)

I'm sorry, but in my understanding, what your friend was doing was not GD. There *is* discipline, it's just gentle. I am no expert, and still struggle with it myself. GD would be explaining to the child that the menu is set, and maybe giving him a special day where he can have more input. And then letting them finish their tantrum in their room and have a sandwich!! It sounds to me like you're using GD and not even realizing it. 

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> Yes, I think it does. When you know there very little consequence for your actions.. you tend to get away with what you can.
> 
> ...


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

I firmly believe all children need discipline and a LOT OF IT. I also believe in very infrequent (if at all) punishment (never physical). The most important thing you can do to encourage discipline is to meet every and all needs under a y/o. Be completely attached and hold/wear the baby often. Never leave them to cry and above all things respect them for the people they are. My DD really was very high needs and used to scream-bloody-murder no lie 4+ hrs a day until she was 6 m/o then it was still like 2hrs a day until a year. This was all while holding or wearing her and offering the breast any and every thing we tried to no avail BUT I never gave up on her, always met her needs to the best of my ability and showed her all the love I could. I was very patient and loving even though it was the most stressful and hardest year of my life!

After a year you do the same things but you need to add discipline. Always try to just distract first. You need to be firm, get off your butt, and actually show them "we don't touch the stove it is hot" then take them to the living room and give them a toy and some one on one time, for example. At every age and stage though you must remember what their limits are. Don't expect them to not act their age.

Always cheer them on and give them praise when they listen or are being "good". At 20 m/o my DD loves to color, she colors on the paper I tell her she is doing a great job, she colors on the wall I tell her we don't do that we only color on the paper and take the crayons. She throws a fit and I hold her, tell her I love her, and read a book to connect with her and distract her.

My DD is not old enough to fully give an answer I suppose but b/c she was AP'd she wants to please me and DH and she listens remarkably well. People comment all the time at how well she listens/well behaved she is. I am firm with her when I need to be but I always explain why we can't do x and never leave her to a fit by herself. She hardly has any fits. She started that phase (and I'm sure there is more to come) and I just held her threw them and validated her feelings. She does not fear me but she and I have a mutual respect and she knows when I "mean business" and always responds right away. I like to use uhuh in a high tone when she is getting into things she shouldn't be and danger for the dangerous things. I rarely tell her no and when I do she knows to stay away from it. Also if she starts running away from me and we are out or something I call her name firmly in a very serious voice and she just sits right down and waits for me to go get her (she just instinctively started doing that on her own). She has never had a hitting, kicking, biting issue either, actually shares really well too... I know that those phases are totally normal though and I always expected them.

My personal opinion is that if you really AP your baby and you are firm but gentle with your toddler you will have to discipline less and less and have a great kid who really listens to you. You will have respect for each other and trust. A child who wants to please and has reason to will. A child in fear of punishment is afraid, does not respect you, and does not trust you. A child who is not disciplined has no boundaries and no direction and will be chaotic. Discipline is healthy, attachment is healthy, and respect is healthy, children need all of those things.


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## 1love4ever (Jan 5, 2011)

sosurreal09 I think you made some excellent points and have some wonderful methods.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *peaceful_mama*
> 
> my older kids know that the 2 year old gets the first drink poured, ice cream cone made, whatever "because he's little and can't wait"


I, personally, don't think it's a good idea to always let the same child go first. It teaches them nothing. So many of us expected so much of our first child when they become a sibling because they seemed so big, and then we end up treating our youngest as a baby for years longer than appropriate because they always seem small!

Two is old enough to understand that you can be second and not die. It's old enough to start to learn to wait.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> I firmly believe all children need discipline and a LOT OF IT. I also believe in very infrequent (if at all) punishment (never physical). The most important thing you can do to encourage discipline is to meet every and all needs under a y/o. Be completely attached and hold/wear the baby often. Never leave them to cry and above all things respect them for the people they are. My DD really was very high needs and used to scream-bloody-murder no lie 4+ hrs a day until she was 6 m/o then it was still like 2hrs a day until a year. This was all while holding or wearing her and offering the breast any and every thing we tried to no avail BUT I never gave up on her, always met her needs to the best of my ability and showed her all the love I could. I was very patient and loving even though it was the most stressful and hardest year of my life!
> 
> ...


This post is so depressing to me. I have a HN child. I did/do everything you describe. And i have a Wild Child! She was still drawing on walls age 4, despite doing just what you describe, and then moving to longer timeouts (for the crayons not the child!) and eventually only having crayons out in one-on-one drawing sessions (with no free access to them at all). One day she found a stub of one in the pocket of a hand-me-down coat from a cousin and drew all over the walls with it. Once she dragged a stool from the bathroom to the bedroom, used it to get access to the first shelf of the open wardrobe, climbed it like a ladder and took down my makeup bag and then coloured the entire room with lipstick. She did this while i was answering the door to the meter-reader. It took her less than 4 minutes.

I think GD is the best way to raise children. But i think if you have a wild child, with the sort of personality where they want to push the boundaries over and over, then GD won't cure that. I think a lot of "naughtiness" is down to curiosity, thoughtlessness, single-mindedness and high-energy/high-needs and GD cannot cure any of that. Equally i think if i hit my little wild cub all the time she would simply do the same things but lie about them, blame others and hide them. As it is she does a whole lot of daft/dangerous/annoying things, but she, at present at least, comes clean right away and is happy to help make amends.

I do know several people who use GD and who have hinted that i *must* be shaming or hitting my DD in private because look - it isn't working! I must have somehow broken her! I know you're not saying that sosurreal, i'm only mentioning it because it's a semi-common reaction when people see my little crazy babe in action. She was HN from birth, and though i'm sure AP and GD have helped her to be HAPPY, they certainly haven't tamed her one bit!


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

GoBeca- I will absolutely agree with you that the child's personality plays the biggest role in who they are/how they act. I don't see that as a discipline issue though. You can not change a person or a child but you can try to work with them. Have you read Raising Your Spirited Child? I have the workbook and found it very insightful for my DD. She is still HN but she is more the sensitive, intense, mixed with stubbornness, low-sleep needs, and bursts of energy that need to be burned throughout the day type. Now like I said above she is still young so who knows what the future holds but I try to work with her. If we are going to run errands I take her to the park first let her run around and then when we are shopping I have her in the wrap on my back. I try to give her enough outside time everyday. I make sure to give her enough one on one time too and lots of eye contact, It is never easy really working with a HN child, I just try my best to accommodate her while still being firm about things and sensitive to her feelings/needs.

I notice by your sig that you share custody with XP right? Perhaps he doesn't parent the way you do and it affects DD?


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *1love4ever*
> 
> sosurreal09 I think you made some excellent points and have some wonderful methods.


TY


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## SubliminalDarkness (Sep 9, 2009)

First off, I don't consider myself a GD parent. So keep that in mind here 

I think the thing about GD is you can't try and use it here and there, and it's really hard if you don't parent that way from day one. My kids are used to more traditional discipline, so when I'm trying to be 'better' and use GD, they blow it off because to them it's just a non-discipline. Does that make sense? So I feel like a lot of those people saying, "that doesn't work" are like me, people who don't subscribe to it and so in their situation, it doesn't work.


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## sunnygir1 (Oct 8, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SubliminalDarkness*
> 
> First off, I don't consider myself a GD parent. So keep that in mind here
> 
> I think the thing about GD is you can't try and use it here and there, and it's really hard if you don't parent that way from day one. My kids are used to more traditional discipline, so when I'm trying to be 'better' and use GD, they blow it off because to them it's just a non-discipline. Does that make sense? So I feel like a lot of those people saying, "that doesn't work" are like me, people who don't subscribe to it and so in their situation, it doesn't work.


Well, I don't know. A couple thoughts come up for me right away reading this post.

1) The daycare providers I have taken my children to use GD, and it seems to work very well. They hold crying children, they redirect gently, they have children take responsibility for their own messes, they give them time-ins (and then older kids time-outs) when needed, they have a firm schedule and routine, and don't give on their boundaries, etc. I am certain that many of the children there are not GD'd at home, but it appears that GD is fairly effective with them at school. I know that a daycare provider is different than a parent, and children almost magically have more control over our children than we do.









2) If I screw up and yell at my children or say something less than gentle to them (which I do fairly frequently) that doesn't mean I have to abandon GD and continue to treat them that way. I can, at any time, realize that I was out of line, talk to my children about it, make amends, make a plan for how I would like to react next time, and move forward. I'm not saying it's easy to change my patterns, but I will say, that when I work on it, I am rewarded by children who respond to it -- I don't mean obedience here, but empathy and joy and repeating the kind of behavior I show them.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> GoBeca- I will absolutely agree with you that the child's personality plays the biggest role in who they are/how they act. I don't see that as a discipline issue though. You can not change a person or a child but you can try to work with them. Have you read Raising Your Spirited Child? I have the workbook and found it very insightful for my DD. She is still HN but she is more the sensitive, intense, mixed with stubbornness, low-sleep needs, and bursts of energy that need to be burned throughout the day type. Now like I said above she is still young so who knows what the future holds but I try to work with her. If we are going to run errands I take her to the park first let her run around and then when we are shopping I have her in the wrap on my back. I try to give her enough outside time everyday. I make sure to give her enough one on one time too and lots of eye contact, It is never easy really working with a HN child, I just try my best to accommodate her while still being firm about things and sensitive to her feelings/needs.
> 
> I notice by your sig that you share custody with XP right? Perhaps he doesn't parent the way you do and it affects DD?


Oh yeah, i've read it. I've read a whole bunch of stuff. The thing i've found most use is Playful Parenting. It plays into her endless sense of fun (she's a total pollyanna, which i KNOW will make her future easier, but it's hard to deal with when she's minimising something which is currently a huge deal). But it takes an enormous amount of energy to do it on the scale i need to here.

My DD is the sort where i can give her one-to-one time all day, with planned activities she loves and has helped choose and after 12-14 hours of this she will be saying to me "but why do you NEVER play with me!?". Because to her the 5 minutes i just spent not playing with her outweighs the previous 14 hours. Since i had her sister this is a much bigger problem since when the baby has needs i have to meet them. I am simply never *enough* for DD1, i never sate her constant needs, but i never did, not since the cord was cut have i managed to meet her needs. So i know i don't give her enough one-on-one, or enough interaction, or enough anything, because i need to sleep and eat and pee. It's exhausting trying and depressing failing. I am told i was the same sort of child.

XP and i are on different pages in terms of parenting, but he is AP and GD too, just has a more permissive attitude than me. She sees him as a friend rather than a parent a lot of the time, but DP is very parenty (we're the primary carers) and so she doesn't lack a male role-model. XP isn't ridiculously permissive just a little more so than me.

My DD also cried for 4-6 hours a day (every evening) for the first 4 or 5 months and then for several hours (sometimes 1, sometimes 6) until she could crawl at 11 months, then she stopped inconsolable screaming but began getting into stuff and has been frenetic ever since (yes, i know, kids get into stuff. Hands up if one morning you woke at 5am to find your 19month old had opened her bedroom door, undone her (spring loaded) baby gate, gone into the kitchen and emptied the 2kgs of sugar, 3kgs of red lentils and 2kgs of flour onto the floor and was when you got there carefully massaging a new pack of butter (taken from the LOCKED fridge) into the cupboard doors - while i was cleaning that up she climbed over the other baby gate, went into the bathroom and unrolled the entire toilet roll). I was so sleep-deprived during that first year i had psychosis. My relationship fell apart (not that a mellow baby could have prevented that! i just mean it was a difficult time). And yet despite all of that, 0-1 was my easiest year with her so far.

I love my child. I love GD - i believe it is the best way to teach children to be thoughtful, caring, respectful, happy adults. But i don't think it makes them into thoughtful caring respectful kids and i don't think it eradicates discipline problems.


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

Go beca that is a really tough situation. Even if she is not a caring, respectful kid, that doesn't mean she won't be a caring respectful adult. All of your effort will not be in vain I am sure. You have given her an amazing foundation to grow from and even if she is challenging and a handful you have prepared her and given her the tools to eventually be able to self regulate and control her own behaviors. There is a reason you are her mother! I think children like her especially need GD.


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## mamakay (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> My personal opinion is that if you really AP your baby and you are firm but gentle with your toddler you will have to discipline less and less and have a great kid who really listens to you. You will have respect for each other and trust. A child who wants to please and has reason to will. A child in fear of punishment is afraid, does not respect you, and does not trust you. A child who is not disciplined has no boundaries and no direction and will be chaotic. Discipline is healthy, attachment is healthy, and respect is healthy, children need all of those things.


That worked out great with one of my kids, but not so great for the other. Different children need different kinds of parenting.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for my hugs







. In fact she CAN be caring and respectful and incredibly so, she can also be thoughtless and careless and disrespectful. I really see already with DD2 that GD is

allowing her to be the gregarious-but-well-behaved child i guess she would most likely have been anyway. And in terms of DD1 i really DO agree, that GD is more important for a child like that. And also, big-headed as it sounds, i think the world NEEDS women like DD1 will hopefully grow to be. She is irreverent, she is brave, she is smart. I could smack her and shame her and after about a year she might be much easier to parent, but as an adult she might end up just one more frightened, quiet woman. Maybe not though, who can know how much difference things really make, over, for example, how one FRAMES those things. A loved-but-smacked child, as an adult, will feel they were smacked out of love. An unloved-and-smacked child will feel they were smacked out of anger or dislike. We humans are so adaptable, context and cultural norms can really save or damn any of us.

Anyway, it was interesting talking. It's nice to know there ARE kids and parents out there for whom GD is a brilliant fit. I go on as i do mainly because i FEEL it is wrong to smack and shame her, so i shan't. Even when i'm really tempted (which i am not ashamed to admit, i sometimes, in my more desperate moments, am!).


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

I think it depends on the kid, really. My 6 year old DD is hardly wild and I've used GD on her. The thing is, she is a really sensitive person and a light touch really works. She finds timeouts devastating. She is easy to reason with. My 16 month old is not shaping up to have the same personality. I love his little personality but I think I will have to use different discipline techniques with him. LOL Just as I typed this, DS bit DD on the shoulder so I had to remove him.

Where I live, a lot of the parents use what they think of as GD. I usually refer to it as unparenting because instead of gently guiding them, they leave them to their own devices. It really sucks because a few of the kids with more aggressive personalities bully the smaller children. The parents want to be "gentle" but they end up doing nothing and saying nothing.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *One_Girl*
> 
> Not in my experience. I think it depends on how you interpret GD and Alfie Kohn though. Neither style says not to have rules, discipline, or boundaries. Both approaches encourage being thoughtful of the rules, boundaries, and discipline that is used though. Alfie Kohn just seems to encourage much deeper thought and writes in a way that seems to be meant to challenge our beliefs so we can reflect on them but even he talks about setting some limits and not engaging in repetitive debate when the answer won't change. I think it is harder when kids are young and you are worried about them turning out badly, as they get older and you see that it really does work you will probably start to relax. Even parents who spank are often hardest on the first and ease up a lot as the kids get older or they have more kids because they see what a little thing most kid stuff is.


This.


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

I agree with those things. I don't think those parents are doing GD though. After the word Gentle is the word Discipline it is just as important as the word gentle. If you do nothing your child will have no boundaries and that is not a good thing for a child. Children want and need boundaries.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lalaland42*
> 
> I think it depends on the kid, really. My 6 year old DD is hardly wild and I've used GD on her. The thing is, she is a really sensitive person and a light touch really works. She finds timeouts devastating. She is easy to reason with. My 16 month old is not shaping up to have the same personality. I love his little personality but I think I will have to use different discipline techniques with him. LOL Just as I typed this, DS bit DD on the shoulder so I had to remove him.
> 
> ...


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamakay*
> 
> That worked out great with one of my kids, but not so great for the other. Different children need different kinds of parenting.


I suspect this is closest to the truth. For the record, we use *some* GD techniques (or plan to, mostly....DD is only 9 months) but we're more traditional in our parenting philosophies. That said, this is just what I've heard about parenting from both my mom and my grandma on my dad's side (both very different types of parents.) They used spanking, which I know most of y'all don't use and I'm not advocating for it, but this is jut the point they both made. They both had children who seemed to worked fine with an occasional swat. They both had children who they ended up having to not ever spank because it just didn't work, the child didn't care and got defiant and they'd have to near kill the child if they were to insist on corporeal punishment with those particular children. And then they both had at least one child each who they never needed to spank because she was so sensitive (was a girl in both cases) if they even just gave the child "The Look" she would dissolve into tears and run and hide behind the couch all day. Made me really believe the "different discipline for different kids" thing.


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

I believe strongly in GD. I think a lot of people do confuse it as permissiveness. People tend to be overly strict and harsh or they go to the opposite extreme where the kid gets to be in charge of everyone. Here's what GD means to me....the Golden Rule...treating my child the way I want to be treated. If I don't want someone calling me a name or hitting me because I made a mistake then I won't do it to my dd. I think people also confuse the word discipline with punishment. Discipline is, to me, helping your child feel right, as Dr. Sears would say. I teach my dd empathy(she is eleven by the way)by helping her to see what it would be like to be the other person. It is apparently working because she defends kids getting picked on in school and is very quick to pick up on unfairness and hypocrisy. I'm most definitely not the perfect mother. I have made mistakes but that is just because I am imperfect. I go to her and tell her I am sorry and I shouldn't have done what I did. My dad used to call me names as a kid and what bothered me even more than the insults was the fact that he justified what he said...as if I deserved it. We all do the best we can and none of us are perfect parents but I honestly believe that if a child knows they are loved and respected by you they will "listen" for the most part.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

we try to follow unconditional parenting style. so.. to answer the op's question:

it depends upon what you mean by 'wild.' and also.. what the alternative to 'wild' might mean to you/other parents. if you want tame, obedient, rule-following children, ones that do not question the fairness or unfairness of a situation, etc. then, in contrast sometimes a gd or unconditionally parented child might seem 'wild.'

personally, why we chose to raise our child gd is because we want a child who can critically view a situation, can think and show insight, and may not necessarily WANT to follow a rule just because someone says so, or may voice an opinion, or expect to participate in family life.

from what i've seen, there are parents who want kids to just shut up and do what they are told. i imagine the reality of a child who can be self aware, and expects to be autonomous (to the degree that age/responsibility/ability allows) would be 'wild' to that parent.

i feel like gd is about respecting the ability and knowledge of a child and supporting self direction to the best extent possible. that doesn't work in all environments.

gd doesn't mean no boundaries, or allowing behaviors that are dangerous/rude/harmful, though. it's possible to set and enforce limits and expect a child to operate within them.

i have seen non gd parents just be lax about enforcing/creating rules and boundaries (permissive ? parenting according to the child development books) who have children who are wild by my definition and do not stop to consider their own behaviors the way i have seen gd parented children do. i've also seen what some pp's describe -- parents who do that same no boundary/structure/expectations and call it gd and then have results they are not expecting.


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> I agree with those things. I don't think those parents are doing GD though. After the word Gentle is the word Discipline it is just as important as the word gentle. If you do nothing your child will have no boundaries and that is not a good thing for a child. Children want and need boundaries.


I agree with you but the parents would label themselves as GD parents and sometimes that self-identification tarnishes an otherwise good parenting strategy. It is important to distinguish between gently guiding your child and forcing them to reinvent the wheel of social behavior.


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

I agree with the first sentence but IDK what you mean by the second. I am assuming you mean b/c I said discipline and boundaries are important? Like PP said and I have said discipline is not punishment. I don't see it as control either and I certainly don't expect a child who would "reinvent the wheel of social behavior". I strongly agree with Dr.Sears's Discipline book in 99% of the aspects of it accept some of the time out stuff b/c I don't do time outs. Perhaps very rarely as a "punishment" when DD is older and with a more positive mood like "reflection time" or something similar. Just b/c I discipline (which to me is really guidance) often does not mean I am a "militant mother" or anything.



> I agree with you but the parents would label themselves as GD parents and sometimes that self-identification tarnishes an otherwise good parenting strategy. It is important to distinguish between gently guiding your child and forcing them to reinvent the wheel of social behavior.


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

I guess I think of boundaries as separate from teaching social behavior - some of which really needs to be taught. To me, boundaries are, "no you may not cut the back of the couch" where social behavior is "no one will want to be your friend if you are mean to them all the time". There is some overlap, such as "your friend's mom won't allow you to come over anymore if you throw a ball at the windows even after being requested not to". Modeling works with some kids but not so much with others. So what ends up happening with some of the self-described GD parents is the kids do socially unacceptable things and the parents want them to learn from the natural consequences of losing friends, etc. Some kids really need things spelled out for them though and they don't learn. When I hear about wild kids, I think of those kids.

We have 2 of those kids in the neighborhood and unfortunately I have to curtail DD's freedoms because of them. I am not sure how their moms expect them to divine proper social behavior but what they are doing isn't working. They think they are being gentle but IMO they are being negligent.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> I agree with the first sentence but IDK what you mean by the second. I am assuming you mean b/c I said discipline and boundaries are important? Like PP said and I have said discipline is not punishment. I don't see it as control either and I certainly don't expect a child who would "reinvent the wheel of social behavior". I strongly agree with Dr.Sears's Discipline book in 99% of the aspects of it accept some of the time out stuff b/c I don't do time outs. Perhaps very rarely as a "punishment" when DD is older and with a more positive mood like "reflection time" or something similar. Just b/c I discipline (which to me is really guidance) often does not mean I am a "militant mother" or anything.


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

OIC yes well I can agree with that. Since DD was maybe 9 m/o I practiced with her social skills. If she took a toy from another child I would give it back to that child and say she needed to wait her turn and give her something else. If she got kind of rough with someone I say "gentle" and show her soft patting ect. She does amazingly with her "friends". I do think natural consequence is good too, but you need to intervene in order to use that moment as a teaching one when something happens. It isn't easy but it paid off for us. Now I can sit back and relax b/c she never has any issues playing.

There is a child that goes to play dates we attend and she is the same age as DD that runs around slapping babies and stealing all their toys and the mother does nothing...that pisses me off. Her DC is very aggressive which I know some kids can be but she should be on top of her and guide her on what to do and not do. When her DC takes something from my DD and she gets upset I look at the mom as to say with my eyes "do something" and she does nothing or tries to distract my DD as if she were younger...she's not. My DD gets upset with this DC and doesn't want to play with them. DC has slapped, pushed, and bitten DD several times and I feel like I need to protect DD every time they show up somewhere. It is aggravating. I don't want to stop going to play dates b/c they may show up and her DC will attack all the kids. I don't really know this woman so it makes it hard to say something to her. I know she firmly believes what she is doing is GD but it's not it's just doing nothing...


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lalaland42*
> 
> I guess I think of boundaries as separate from teaching social behavior - some of which really needs to be taught. To me, boundaries are, "no you may not cut the back of the couch" where social behavior is "no one will want to be your friend if you are mean to them all the time". There is some overlap, such as "your friend's mom won't allow you to come over anymore if you throw a ball at the windows even after being requested not to". Modeling works with some kids but not so much with others. So what ends up happening with some of the self-described GD parents is the kids do socially unacceptable things and the parents want them to learn from the natural consequences of losing friends, etc. Some kids really need things spelled out for them though and they don't learn. When I hear about wild kids, I think of those kids.
> 
> We have 2 of those kids in the neighborhood and unfortunately I have to curtail DD's freedoms because of them. I am not sure how their moms expect them to divine proper social behavior but what they are doing isn't working. They think they are being gentle but IMO they are being negligent.


I talk a lot about possible social natural consequences of behavior with my 5.5 year old DD. She's very outgoing and wants other kids to like and play with her. Any time she's rude or doesn't respect others personal space, I point it out and we talk about how other people might react to the behavior. We've been doing this this since she was 3 and we've always talked about why some behaviors are a bad or good idea. I agree that not talking about expected social behaviors with kids is negligent.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Ds1 was gd'ed from the beginning (I learned about it before he was 1yo), and he is FAR from a wild child! He was (is) easy to take anywhere, he was very cooperative and compassionate for a toddler (when he was 2.5, he would ask permission before he picked a dandilion from someone else's yard). He was and still is very "rule conscious" and now at 6yo and in 1st grade, he's considerate and helpful to the other kids in the class.


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

It started last summer when he was "the baby" at about 18 months, and really could not wait. Now they just naturally do it for him, AND it led to *them* using more appropriate waiting manners. Before, they all 3 were jumping around at me literally screaming for ice cream. Once I started the age-order thing, it's like the structure reassured them and they were able to wait more patiently. Occasionally, I vary it--especially if someone is being rude. They wait till last.

I know at 2 1/2 now he's different than 18 months, but they just do it now and I do think it's helping my older ones learn to have some patience with and for younger kids. His turn will come--the baby is now 6 months old.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> I, personally, don't think it's a good idea to always let the same child go first. It teaches them nothing. So many of us expected so much of our first child when they become a sibling because they seemed so big, and then we end up treating our youngest as a baby for years longer than appropriate because they always seem small!
> 
> Two is old enough to understand that you can be second and not die. It's old enough to start to learn to wait.


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ssh*
> 
> I talk a lot about possible social natural consequences of behavior with my 5.5 year old DD. She's very outgoing and wants other kids to like and play with her. Any time she's rude or doesn't respect others personal space, I point it out and we talk about how other people might react to the behavior. We've been doing this this since she was 3 and we've always talked about why some behaviors are a bad or good idea. I agree that not talking about expected social behaviors with kids is negligent.


I do that with my kid too. I think that is perfectly reasonable and responsible. When I see the kids here hit another kid in the head and the mom just watches without saying anything, I go a little crazy. Well, gee, no I am not surprised your kid doesn't have friends. Even 5 year olds won't be friends with kids that repeatedly push them in the mud. *grumble*


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sere234*
> 
> So- What is your experience? Does GD REALLY work? When DH and I attempt to raise our son this way, will he turn in to a wild hooligan? Right now I'm obviously very much against spanking and really even time outs.


I missed this part before- We don't do time outs, or any type of punishment, really. I suppose occasionally I give a "logical consequence" because I'm mad (though I usually end up taking it back). But for the most part, we talk, redirect, and explain how one's actions affect other people, etc etc etc.

Ds2 is different than ds1, and is more of a wild child already (he's not quite 2yo). I've been on the fence about adding in some logical consequences, but it doesn't fit in with my parenting philosophy, or that of dp. If he's hitting or otherwise harming someone else, I will take away the object he's hitting with, or remove him from the situation. So I suppose that would be a logical consequence? I'm not sure how I feel about calling it that, though, because it's about keeping the person safe, and it's not used as a punishment (defined as: suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution). Who knows? lol.


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## mamakay (Apr 8, 2005)

I don't see punishment/consequences as "retribution". I feel no desire to exact revenge upon anyone under the age of, I dunno, 15, ever, and especially not my own kids (who are almost 8 and 3).

I would be SO into a single "parenting philosophy" if my youngest kid was my only kid. I'm a total softie by nature, and really don't like groundings and timeouts, so with my naturally mellow 3 yo youngest, I just say stuff like "Please don't do that" and explain why, and that usually works. It's weird.

My other kid was TOTALLY different and was on the road to a diagnosis at 4. He needed consequences. I'm not sadistic - we don't hit, shame, slap, etc. We grounded (eventually ...right before age 5) him from stuff (TV, riding his bike, etc) until he understood that he needed to find self-control if he wanted to do a lot of stuff he wanted to do. In retrospect, I do think he was one of those kids who craves authority. At age almost 8, he's really nice and reasonable now (although still unusually emotional). He was totally tantruming and hitting us and throwing stuff and acting like a 2 yo before we incorporated firm consequences, tho. If he had made it to 5, 6, 7 or 8 STILL acting like that, I would have HAD to take him to a psychologist to not feel like a neglectful parent.

I have two parenting hills/issues to die on:

1) the false idea all "well-parented" 3 yo's will be "normal/good/whatever" if you do everything "right"

2) the false idea that one grand parenting method/philosophy will fit all kids.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamakay*
> 
> I don't see punishment/consequences as "retribution". I feel no desire to exact revenge upon anyone under the age of, I dunno, 15, ever, and especially not my own kids (who are almost 8 and 3).


that was just (one of) the merriam webster definition  I see punishment as something that you impose that is so negative to the child, that they will refrain from doing the "misbehavior" because they want to avoid the punishment. That's how it works, right?

I was just saying that in *my* mind, if dc is hitting someone with an object, then taking that object away isn't necessarily punishment. It's not intended to be so negative that he will refrain from hitting in the future. It's intended to stop the hitting.

I think it's necessary to be flexible, and parent different children differently, and you have to do what's right for each individual child. I have no judgement there  It's about knowing your dc, and knowing yourself (ds1 did great with a UP/nearly CL style, but it wasn't a great style for me. I was way more relaxed when I started being "in charge.")

I just don't know that ds2 needs a totally different discipline style. Perhaps more structure, perhaps less cl and a little more "parents as authority." But I think it's possible to do those things and still stick with my views on kids, and humans in general, kwim?


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## mamakay (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DevaMajka*
> 
> that was just (one of) the merriam webster definition  I see punishment as something that you impose that is so negative to the child, that they will refrain from doing the "misbehavior" because they want to avoid the punishment. That's how it works, right?
> 
> ...


I guess I think it depends on your kid, and the age of your kid.

I know I don't steal, not because I could get arrested, but rather because I believe that stealing is (generally) wrong. At this point, a LOT of my oldest kid's behaviors are motivated by similar internalized ethics and logical understandings, because he's almost 8 now and old enough to grasp that stuff.

Between ages 2 and 5, he lacked the "please mommy" motivation my youngest has and was just kinda crying out "MAKE ME!" over everything between ages 1-4. And he was not a happy camper before firm consequences were added into his life. He actually became happier in general once I was, well, punishing (via grounding from tv, etc) him into not tantruming all the time.

I'm honestly deeply skeptical about the idea that all kids can be effectively parented without consequences/punishment ever being used at any stage. The scientific data indicates that "authoritative" parenting (democratic parenting, but consequences are used) produces kids with less anxiety and depression than either permissive (no consequences) or authoritarian (little negotiation, total hardass) parenting. The sub-effects have never been teased out, but I suspect that's because authoritative parenting both lets the kids have a lot of say (good) while also catching the behavioral outliers who really need *enforced* authority.


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

I don't totally get what you mean maybe I am off on GD but kids have consequences....If my 2 y/o is coloring on the wall then I take the crayons and she is mad and I help her through those feelings but I'm not going to let her color all over the walls either. I think a big point of GD is that the child will (usually) want to please and you have built a strong relationship and foundation for your child so they should need less discipline. I think almost any way you decide to discipline will be ok as long as you have a connected relationship from infancy which is what AP is.

The whole point of discipline is to teach your child internal control so that they will naturally do what's best (like not stealing, killing, lying....)


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamakay*
> 
> I guess I think it depends on your kid, and the age of your kid.
> 
> ...


You are the first person I've heard in this thread define "permissive" as not punishing (which is what imposing consequences is). I doubt that's what scientific studies are using as a definition either.

And I've also heard people say they're skeptical all kids can be parented without spanking.

I don't believe all kids need to be spoken to exactly the same or parented exactly the same, but just as I believe it's possible to parent all children effectively without spanking, I believe it is possible to parent all children effectively without other punishments.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamakay*
> 
> I'm honestly deeply skeptical about the idea that all kids can be effectively parented without consequences/punishment ever being used at any stage. The scientific data indicates that "authoritative" parenting (democratic parenting, but consequences are used) produces kids with less anxiety and depression than either permissive (no consequences) or authoritarian (little negotiation, total hardass) parenting. The sub-effects have never been teased out, but I suspect that's because authoritative parenting both lets the kids have a lot of say (good) while also catching the behavioral outliers who really need *enforced* authority.


I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was saying that I don't think that *my* ds2 needs a totally different parenting style. You did what you did because you thought it was the best for the people involved, and it indeed seems to have worked out well. That's a parent's intuition.

I agree with mamazee that no consequences does not equal permissive. Permissive parents tend to not give consequences, sure. But non-punitive parents are certainly not all permissive. Some have high standards for their kids, they just "enforce" them in non-punitive ways. I think your general point stands, though.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> You are the first person I've heard in this thread define "permissive" as not punishing (which is what imposing consequences is). I doubt that's what scientific studies are using as a definition either.
> 
> ...


OK, great theory - can we talk nitty gritty? If i give a scenario, you tell me what you'd do, then i'll tell you what i did?

Your 4yo (2 months off being 5) DD is at a friends house with you and her baby sister (who is very little and nursing all the time). She is playing with her friends dear boy, also nearly 5 and his 2.5yo sister. Kids are playing in the bedroom where toys are and in the livingroom where parents are (3 parents, you, other mom and other dad). Parents are taking turns going in to check on the kids and staying put to watch the 9mo baby brother of the friends, who is just beginning to crawl. At some point it comes to light that DD and DB have painted the toys and bedding of DG with nail varnish. Nail varnish was in the kids room but neither of the kids who live there can get it off (too young/weak DG and motor delay DB). En route home DD confesses that actually it was just her, alone, who did it. 2 favourite "lovie" toys are beyond repair, full sheets set (sheet, duvet cover, pillow case) are ruined. Carpet is marked. Friend is very upset.

How do you handle it?


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

OMG! What an amazingly frustrating situation.
I can't say exactly what I would do (but I'd be beyond pi$$ed). But I don't consider it against my (non-punitive) parenting style to insist that my kids right a wrong that they've committed.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I'd pay my friend for the ruined items and apologize, and tell my four year old that friend and friend's parents were really unhappy because their things now had nail polish all over them, and I'd explain (if my kid didn't know) that nail polish couldn't be washed off and so was really important to only use it with an adult and veeery carefully.

I'd also make a mental note that 4 year olds need adult supervision and that I should check for stuff like nail polish before letting my kid play in a room where I can't see her. Yeah, kid did a dumb thing, but she's four, and four year olds do stuff like that. My kid actually remembers being 3 and 4, and how she thought about things when she was that age... and it's really interesting to hear her talk about it because it's so clear that she _wasn't_ able to reason in an adult way, and that things that seem mind-blowingly obviously dumb to an adult made perfect sense to her.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GoBecGo*
> 
> OK, great theory - can we talk nitty gritty? If i give a scenario, you tell me what you'd do, then i'll tell you what i did?
> 
> ...


I'd pay for the damage and supervise her better until I thought she could handle not being supervised as well. She'd have to play near me and the baby or I'd have to stay with her in the other room. Even if you punish, you'd have to supervise better as well, so why not just supervise better? That's my issue with punishments. There are things you have to do to prevent something bad from happening (hold hand near the street, supervise near the street). But then there are things you choose to do to make your point (like spank for running in the road). Why not just supervise better and hold hands? The rest is extra, and I'm not at all convinced that it actually teaches kids to stop putting nail polish on stuff or to stop running in the road.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Oh and my daughter did intentionally put make-up on the carpet in our house around that age, and the stain was there until we got the carpeting replaced. I didn't punish her, and she no longer does that anyway. I supervised her better around makeup and was more careful about what makeup was accessible.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

For Rain it was 4 ounces of glitter, all over the place. Somehow it got stuck in the paint on the walls, even. I never did get it all cleaned off. And yeah, I kept the glitter out of reach after that.


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dar*
> 
> I'd pay my friend for the ruined items and apologize, and tell my four year old that friend and friend's parents were really unhappy because their things now had nail polish all over them, and I'd explain (if my kid didn't know) that nail polish couldn't be washed off and so was really important to only use it with an adult and veeery carefully.
> 
> I'd also make a mental note that 4 year olds need adult supervision and that I should check for stuff like nail polish before letting my kid play in a room where I can't see her. Yeah, kid did a dumb thing, but she's four, and four year olds do stuff like that. My kid actually remembers being 3 and 4, and how she thought about things when she was that age... and it's really interesting to hear her talk about it because it's so clear that she _wasn't_ able to reason in an adult way, and that things that seem mind-blowingly obviously dumb to an adult made perfect sense to her.


This is what I would do as well. Depending on the 4 year old, I would either make her apologize or have her there while I modeled apologizing. DD would likely become very upset about apologizing and I would tell her that it is hard for me to apologize too because apologizing is uncomfortable but it is a necessary part of having friends.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Good thoughts! 

FWIW DD DID know that nail varnish doesn't come off easily and that she should never touch it, BUT i do keep it out of reach in my house - because her kids couldn't open the bottle and her DG had been using it as a display item on a "princess dressing table" it was in their room. The room we were in was literally 2 yards (VERY small apartment) away, and though i agree that constant supervision would have prevented it, i actually need to be able to leave my nearly-5yo alone for 4 minutes and not expect her to immediately do crazy destructive damage to stuff (YMMV - she is a kid who will take something she knows very very well she mustn't touch and then say to me "YOU should have put it up high" because when she was younger i think i took on too much of the responsibility for her actions and it suits her to blame her shortcomings on someone else - i absolutely agree that keeping things out of reach is most important, but equally perpetual supervision isn't a realistic answer to an older and older child without impulse control, at some point i feel i needed to get her practising impulse control). These are all just the thoughts i had on my specific kid at that time - there is a significant difficulty with taking responsibility with other family members and i'm anxious to help her feel she is able to take responsibility and not so helpless to fix things that she needs to blame others instead.

Well this is what happened....

Friend was very visibly upset at the time. She did not shout at DD but she did say "DD we are your friends, and DG is so upset over her lovies - look how sad she is (DG was HYSTERICAL, and no wonder), i am so so sad that you did this in my home. This is NOT ok!" I stood by DD as this was said and nodded agreement. DD half-heartedly said it was supposed to be funny and i pointed to the tear-stained faces around the room and asked "is anyone laughing now?". I told her, in front of friend, that we would be paying for the damage she did and that she would have to pay what she could afford from her own savings (only the piggy bank, not the savings account).

We gave friend some cash immediately, but it was later that she confessed that it was her and not DB who had done it (previously we'd asked DB and he'd "confessed" but he has ASD and tends to agree or disagree based on what he thinks the asker wants to hear). At that point i immediately texted the friend (we were still on the bus home) and told her so she would not be overly upset with her actually-innocent kids. I promised i'd make it up to them. That evening DD was sent to fetch her piggy bank and we emptied it and put the money into a special part of my purse. We talked a lot about what had happened and we brainstormed how we could fix it. With help (but no coercion, she needed ideas but not much encouragement to actually try to make amends, by then she was pretty clear on the magnitude of what happened) she decided what she could do, and what i would help her do. We settled on:

Replace the bed linen

Replace the lovies with new versions

Replace the outfit DB had been wearing (DD had also liberally painted him with "blood" 0 it was dark red nail varnish)

DD would make an apology card/picture for friend and another for DG

DD would give friend a verbal apology

It was really hard watching her process what she'd done. She kept bursting into tears all evening, saying things like "what if it was MY lovie, i would be so sad" and "DG is going to bed with no lovie Mama!". I felt so bad for her, i know how painful it is when one's shortcomings come to haunt one. We hugged a lot, i told her over and over that we loved her, friend loved her, we could make amends.

The following day we went to the city and bought the new items, DD chose linen with a design that DG would love (DG actually said in awe "oh my dreams!" when she saw it! LOL). The next day we took it all over, with the lovingly drawn and coloured pictures, and DD apologised very sweetly and asked friend could she "hug it better" and gave her a massive hug. Friend was actually pretty impressed by how DD had taken it all on and thanked her for making it all better again.

Since then we've talked a few times more about respecting other peoples property and not doing the wrong thing and getting help if a decision turns out to be the wrong one. DD has actually been MUCH more careful since then, and much more thoughtful about other peoples things. If DD is getting into a scrape now she comes to summon help right away and i am quick to tell her i'm proud of her for seeing she needs help and getting it so fast. She also occasionally brings me things she thinks "the baby shouldn't get" - things the baby wouldn't even notice but that DD might misuse. So in that way she still uses me to help her control impulses, but she is MUCH better at spotting temptation and avoiding it.

I was told by various people that how i handled it was shaming, punishing and humiliating. I shouldn't have let the friend tell her how sad and disappointed she was, i shouldn't have had her apologise, pay or make amends (she handed over the new items to the recipients, not me), that the amends made were excessive and i should have settled on a short apology and never mentioned it again. Basically that the responsibility was one of supervision and my failure and that she should have been protected from responsibility for the damage. Not by everyone, of course, but by many. I don't personally see anything we did as a punishment. I think there were a few lessons in there, about not wrecking stuff, about taking financial responsibility as well as emotional responsibility, about protecting our relationships with loved ones being more important than pride or money. But those are LESSONS, and discipline is TEACHING and that's what i felt all that was about. I guess as my kids grow (and DD is my eldest so i'm still very new to this!) i feel that there is a difference between the damage a 2yo might do (basically force of nature) and the damage a 4yo might do (she is not longer without levers when it comes to controlling herself). I guess i believe if i treat DD like a little thinking feeling person whose relationships are important to her and who WANTS to navigate the world without hurting people but who might need a little help figuring out how to do that it's probably better, long term, than treating her as if she "can't help it" until she stops (assuming she would) doing these crazy things of her own volition. Equally i cannot really pretend that much of what we did to make amends was a pure consequence - the consequence would have been friend no longer welcoming us in her home! All of my imposed consequences were aimed at sparing us the natural one!


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

I think your response was perfectly appropriate and lovely and it sounds like you have a wonderful daughter. BTW, I include "friends being upset when we ruin their things" as a natural consequence. Your friend shouldn't have to suppress her feelings, just express them in appropriate ways.


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

I don't think there was anything wrong with what you did but I would not have let my friend (other kids mom) talk to my DD about it the way she did. Obvs your DD could SEE how upset the kids were she had no business "rubbing it in" IMO. Also you know your DD and if she needs more supervision you just have to handle it, even though that can totally stink sometimes. Or if anything do a "sweep" of the room when you arrive to see if there is anything she can get herself into trouble with.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> I don't think there was anything wrong with what you did but I would not have let my friend (other kids mom) talk to my DD about it the way she did. Obvs your DD could SEE how upset the kids were she had no business "rubbing it in" IMO. Also you know your DD and if she needs more supervision you just have to handle it, even though that can totally stink sometimes. Or if anything do a "sweep" of the room when you arrive to see if there is anything she can get herself into trouble with.


It was ME who pointed out the crying children, not her and i did so to make sure DD understood that however "funny" her actions were to her they were very much hurting other people. And you might think this was obvious but i've seen my DD yelling "it's a funny JOKE" at an obviously crying child she has upset, and expecting them to get over their emotional pain with the intellectual information that it was intended as a joke.

I don't see why she shouldn't be allowed to respectfully express dismay, upset and anger when a person she has only ever been good to wrecks a lot of her and her children's stuff in her home? And how would i have handled that? Would i have stopped her, while she was expressing her hurt, and said "don't talk to my child that way" and left? And what would that have taught DD about her own place in the proceedings? Sometimes you hurt people, and the way they react is hurtful to YOU, and that absolves you of the original hurt you caused? Another valid lesson? No? I have enough trouble parenting my kids, i can't be parenting my friends as well!


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## HeliMom (Jan 14, 2010)

That sounds pretty appropriately handled to me, and I don't see it as punishing. You were helping your daughter express her own regrets by empathizing with her friends. You also empathized with her, and helped her separate a bad decision from the idea of being a bad person. You helped her brainstorm so she got a chance to practice making amends that are real and meaningful to the harmed party. I'm not at that age yet with DD but how you handled things would be in line with how I parent and I subscribe to the ideals of UP.

I can't say if your friend was "rubbing it in" I wasn't there. I do know I narrate situations to my DD to help her process and I could have said those exact words in a that was just putting words to the situation with no intention of causing further grief. Also I think you can't control how others react to tragedy and that's a good lesson to learn.


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

I am seriously not trying to offend you, you asked how I would handle it (everyone) and I gave input. I did say I didn't see anything wrong with how you handled it. I seem to have issues with other people reprimanding my child, when I am right there, and I can handle it myself. So I read it wrong and thought she said those things not you...*I* would have discussed it at home with DD personally b/c that's what *I* feel comfortable with. Other than that I would most likely have done everything else you did. I think it is good you made her responsible in helping to pay for the damage and not shrugging it off like "Here is a blank check all better!"

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GoBecGo*
> 
> It was ME who pointed out the crying children, not her and i did so to make sure DD understood that however "funny" her actions were to her they were very much hurting other people. And you might think this was obvious but i've seen my DD yelling "it's a funny JOKE" at an obviously crying child she has upset, and expecting them to get over their emotional pain with the intellectual information that it was intended as a joke.
> 
> I don't see why she shouldn't be allowed to respectfully express dismay, upset and anger when a person she has only ever been good to wrecks a lot of her and her children's stuff in her home? And how would i have handled that? Would i have stopped her, while she was expressing her hurt, and said "don't talk to my child that way" and left? And what would that have taught DD about her own place in the proceedings? Sometimes you hurt people, and the way they react is hurtful to YOU, and that absolves you of the original hurt you caused? Another valid lesson? No? I have enough trouble parenting my kids, i can't be parenting my friends as well!


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> I am seriously not trying to offend you, you asked how I would handle it (everyone) and I gave input. I did say I didn't see anything wrong with how you handled it. I seem to have issues with other people reprimanding my child, when I am right there, and I can handle it myself. So I read it wrong and thought she said those things not you...*I* would have discussed it at home with DD personally b/c that's what *I* feel comfortable with. Other than that I would most likely have done everything else you did. I think it is good you made her responsible in helping to pay for the damage and not shrugging it off like "Here is a blank check all better!"


Oh, no i am not offended! It's so hard to convey tone in these things! LOL

I am really just clarifying my position and "talking" about it. I'm happy enough with how it all went, i don't think it was perfect but i do think it worked fine for us in the overall sense, so i'm not feeling defensive at all, sorry that doesn't come off very well! I am really enjoying the conversation!









Really, i am interested in how you would have handled the reprimand, would you have stopped her? Or what? I am trying to imagine how i could have done anything in the moment (obviously if she'd been yelling or threatening i would have HAD to step in) without minimising her feelings of hurt...? If these things come up for others how do they handle it?


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamakay*
> 
> I guess I think it depends on your kid, and the age of your kid.
> 
> ...


I totally agree.


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

I absolutely would have stopped her! I would have taken the polish away and let her see how upset her friends were then have told them she will be replacing the items. Then we would have left. I would say something like "I thin it is best that we go and think about what just happened." I would apologize to the parent and children and if DD did too that would be great if not we would discuss that in private. I would have a discussion with her face to face about how hurt her friends were and how it really wasn't funny. Then we would brainstorm how to patch things up with the friend. I would have made her put money in towards it too. I just like to handle my discipline more privately. Whenever we are at someone elses home and DD does something "she shouldn't" (quotes b/c my DD is so young) I notice I will be kind of harsh on her with an audience (b/c people tend to judge me and think she will be wild b/c I GD and I don't do it on purpose) so I like to remove her and have a little privacy so it doesn't turn into a "bad girl" situation. Not saying your situation did though.

It is obvious your DD really took this to heart. She was physically upset all night so I am sure she punished herself enough with empathy for the friends she hurt. That is good she has empathy and could see how it really effected everyone.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GoBecGo*
> 
> Oh, no i am not offended! It's so hard to convey tone in these things! LOL
> 
> ...


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

No, but i mean, would you have stopped the friend? Mid-sentence - we noticed because we were doing the 5 minutely check up on what they were doing, and our friend just came out with it when she saw the mess, it wasn't that she was taking my job as a parent, she was just totally dismayed i think. As she said it i was already removing the varnish from her hand and beginning to clean up. We stayed long enough that i had a good idea the extent of the damage and had cleaned the nail varnish off DB and DD and attempted to clean up the lovies (in the hopes that they could at least still be loved until they could be replaced - unfortunately they were plastic-faced dolls and she'd painted out the eyes, and when we tried to clean the eyes dissolved with the varnish solvent!). I didn't feel i could leave my friend with the entire clean-up operation alone OR expect her to keep her feelings to herself while we cleaned up. So if you're in a situation like that and the other person is already speaking, what do you do?

And yes, she has a lot of empathy, what she lacks (and is getting much better at) are foresight and impulse control! She's really smart though, and caring, and i'm really proud of her.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> I absolutely would have stopped her! I would have taken the polish away and let her see how upset her friends were then have told them she will be replacing the items. Then we would have left. I would say something like "I thin it is best that we go and think about what just happened." I would apologize to the parent and children and if DD did too that would be great if not we would discuss that in private. I would have a discussion with her face to face about how hurt her friends were and how it really wasn't funny. Then we would brainstorm how to patch things up with the friend. I would have made her put money in towards it too. I just like to handle my discipline more privately. Whenever we are at someone elses home and DD does something "she shouldn't" (quotes b/c my DD is so young) I notice I will be kind of harsh on her with an audience (b/c people tend to judge me and think she will be wild b/c I GD and I don't do it on purpose) so I like to remove her and have a little privacy so it doesn't turn into a "bad girl" situation. Not saying your situation did though.
> 
> It is obvious your DD really took this to heart. She was physically upset all night so I am sure she punished herself enough with empathy for the friends she hurt. That is good she has empathy and could see how it really effected everyone.


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

Yeah clean up is a good point. I would clean up too. I guess it would depend on exactly what my friend was saying if she was like "Oh God look at this mess, oh no the lovies!" etc I would be ok with that BUT if she were reprimanding/trying to reprimand my child, yes I would stop her and I would just say "I know you are really upset right now but I will handle my DD when we get home." or "I sympathize with what you must be feeling right now, but I prefer to discuss things with DD privately/at home." If she didn't get the hint and tried to reprimand her further I would leave. Same goes for if she was trying to intentionally guilt my child or putting her down. Yes DD did it and she will be dealt with and we will discuss the situation but there is no situation acceptable for me to be permissive of someone talking down to or putting down my child.


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## mamakay (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


No, I found some of the original 1960's research defining "permissive parenting," and "nonpunitive" is the core aspect of what makes a parenting style permissive.

http://persweb.wabash.edu/facstaff/hortonr/articles%20for%20class/baumrind.pdf

I know some people are skeptical that all kids can be parented without spanking, but there are entire countries in Europe (where spanking is illegal) debunking that notion.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GoBecGo*
> 
> 
> 
> I was told by various people that how i handled it was shaming, punishing and humiliating. I shouldn't have let the friend tell her how sad and disappointed she was, i shouldn't have had her apologise, pay or make amends (she handed over the new items to the recipients, not me), that the amends made were excessive and i should have settled on a short apology and never mentioned it again. Basically that the responsibility was one of supervision and my failure and that she should have been protected from responsibility for the damage. Not by everyone, of course, but by many. I don't personally see anything we did as a punishment. I think there were a few lessons in there, about not wrecking stuff, about taking financial responsibility as well as emotional responsibility, about protecting our relationships with loved ones being more important than pride or money. But those are LESSONS, and discipline is TEACHING and that's what i felt all that was about. I guess as my kids grow (and DD is my eldest so i'm still very new to this!) i feel that there is a difference between the damage a 2yo might do (basically force of nature) and the damage a 4yo might do (she is not longer without levers when it comes to controlling herself). I guess i believe if i treat DD like a little thinking feeling person whose relationships are important to her and who WANTS to navigate the world without hurting people but who might need a little help figuring out how to do that it's probably better, long term, than treating her as if she "can't help it" until she stops (assuming she would) doing these crazy things of her own volition. Equally i cannot really pretend that much of what we did to make amends was a pure consequence - the consequence would have been friend no longer welcoming us in her home! All of my imposed consequences were aimed at sparing us the natural one!


I think you did great. Personally, I don't see any actual what I would call "punishments" in how you handled it....you just walked her through the natural consequences of doing what she did. She learned a whole lot, which is apparent by the emotions she felt as she finally "understood" (the way that a 4 year old is capable of understanding) the magnitude of what she did and, most importantly, how it affected others. She's learning about consequences and she's learning empathy. And as far as "shaming" goes...I think that shame has very unfairly been turned into a dirty word by some in the modern psychology movements. Shame is a natural, good, productive feeling that we feel when we've done somerhing wrong. Misplaced shame is another thing, but a lot of people seem to think that ALL feelings of shame and guilt are misplaced. It is appropriate to feel ashamed when we realize we've done wrong. Seems that, although this wasn't a "great" situation, it turned into an awesome learning experience all around. Was it hard? Yes. But that's how life is. If it wasn't hard then there wouldn't be that much of a deterrent for people to NOT do shameful or wrong things. Feeling shame appropriately is a sign of a well-formed (and still-forming) conscience and it's a good thing IMO.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GoBecGo*
> 
> No, but i mean, would you have stopped the friend? Mid-sentence - we noticed because we were doing the 5 minutely check up on what they were doing, and our friend just came out with it when she saw the mess, it wasn't that she was taking my job as a parent, she was just totally dismayed i think. As she said it i was already removing the varnish from her hand and beginning to clean up. We stayed long enough that i had a good idea the extent of the damage and had cleaned the nail varnish off DB and DD and attempted to clean up the lovies (in the hopes that they could at least still be loved until they could be replaced - unfortunately they were plastic-faced dolls and she'd painted out the eyes, and when we tried to clean the eyes dissolved with the varnish solvent!). I didn't feel i could leave my friend with the entire clean-up operation alone OR expect her to keep her feelings to herself while we cleaned up. So if you're in a situation like that and the other person is already speaking, what do you do?
> 
> And yes, she has a lot of empathy, what she lacks (and is getting much better at) are foresight and impulse control! She's really smart though, and caring, and i'm really proud of her.


I woulnd't have stopped her unless she was going on and on and starting to repeat herself and/or getting angry, yelling, being insulting or threatening, etc. Otherwise, I think it was good for your daughter to hear it (just going by how you've described what your friend told her.)


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GoBecGo*
> 
> I was told by various people that how i handled it was shaming, punishing and humiliating. I shouldn't have let the friend tell her how sad and disappointed she was, i shouldn't have had her apologise, pay or make amends (she handed over the new items to the recipients, not me), that the amends made were excessive and i should have settled on a short apology and never mentioned it again. Basically that the responsibility was one of supervision and my failure and that she should have been protected from responsibility for the damage. Not by everyone, of course, but by many. I don't personally see anything we did as a punishment. I think there were a few lessons in there, about not wrecking stuff, about taking financial responsibility as well as emotional responsibility, about protecting our relationships with loved ones being more important than pride or money. But those are LESSONS, and discipline is TEACHING and that's what i felt all that was about.


I totally agree with you. What you did is probably along the lines of what I would do (and still consider myself non-punitive). Exdp would probably do what many of the other women have said they would do (which is, talk to dc about it and supervise better in the future). Neither way is wrong- exdp is a fantastic dad and I love his discipline style. But I'm a good mom, and my discipline style works for me.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coffeegirl*
> 
> I think you did great. Personally, I don't see any actual what I would call "punishments" in how you handled it....you just walked her through the natural consequences of doing what she did. She learned a whole lot, which is apparent by the emotions she felt as she finally "understood" (the way that a 4 year old is capable of understanding) the magnitude of what she did and, most importantly, how it affected others. She's learning about consequences and she's learning empathy. And as far as "shaming" goes...I think that shame has very unfairly been turned into a dirty word by some in the modern psychology movements. Shame is a natural, good, productive feeling that we feel when we've done somerhing wrong. Misplaced shame is another thing, but a lot of people seem to think that ALL feelings of shame and guilt are misplaced. It is appropriate to feel ashamed when we realize we've done wrong. Seems that, although this wasn't a "great" situation, it turned into an awesome learning experience all around. Was it hard? Yes. But that's how life is. If it wasn't hard then there wouldn't be that much of a deterrent for people to NOT do shameful or wrong things. Feeling shame appropriately is a sign of a well-formed (and still-forming) conscience and it's a good thing IMO.


Feeling shame from within when you've done something wrong is productive, but I feel very strongly that having someone speak to you in a way to create shame is destructive. I've been on the receiving end, I know how it feels, and I've seen what it did to me and my siblings.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I think that shame in the moment can be useful - i agree that it's a mechanism that allows us to re-evaluate our actions and how they have affected those around us. I think the problem with shame is that a) if it is retrospectively applied or borne as a grudge it can really eat away at one's sense of self-worth (my mother was a grudge bearer at times and it could be really damaging) and b) it can make one feel disabled to make amends "i'm so ashamed, i can't even go there, let alone apologise!" "how can i even show my face!?" etc. So i think a little shame is to be celebrated as a properly functioning conscience, too much shame just shackles us against giving right redress.

So i think there is a HEALTHY place for shame, and an UNHEALTHY place. I agree if i'd felt my friend was still going on when DD was already hysterical i would certainly have stopped her by pointing out that she was already feeling about as bad as she could and/or left - i do think she had every right to be upset though, in the moment. I don't feel protecting DD from the reasonable responses of those around her is useful to her, but likewise she IS only 5 (only 4 then) and i don't think she should be treated as if she purposefully did wrong. What she did that day was thoughtless, disrespectful, destructive and not a little callous (DG witnessed the lovies being wrecked AND cried throughout but DD continued because DB was laughing! VERY poor judgement as we later discussed!) but it wasn't intentionally any of those things. She just lacked the life experience to really extrapolate the results of those actions, and got carried away in the moment. Fortunately our friend is a very loving mother and woman and did not seek to hurt DD, only to honestly let her know that what she had done was NOT ok. She accepted the apologies lovingly and joyfully and "got over" the incident immediately. She's a really wonderful friend!


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

I think the hard thing is that the parents that really care can sometimes be paranoid that we will/have done something wrong and will screw up our kids! I had a lot of guilt for trying the baby whisperer out on DD (she was what I would call extreme high needs and I needed some help) which is a "non-CIO" method to get the baby to sleep and eat on schedule and what not. It didn't feel right to me but I did try it for months...and I never let her CIO but I *feel* like standing there patting a 3 m/o on the back for 45 mins trying to get them to sleep is not far from it. So I have a ton of guilt about this still...and it's b/c I am afraid of screwing her up.


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GoBecGo*
> 
> It was ME who pointed out the crying children, not her and i did so to make sure DD understood that however "funny" her actions were to her they were very much hurting other people. * And you might think this was obvious but i've seen my DD yelling "it's a funny JOKE" at an obviously crying child she has upset, and expecting them to get over their emotional pain with the intellectual information that it was intended as a joke.*
> 
> I don't see why she shouldn't be allowed to respectfully express dismay, upset and anger when a person she has only ever been good to wrecks a lot of her and her children's stuff in her home? And how would i have handled that? Would i have stopped her, while she was expressing her hurt, and said "don't talk to my child that way" and left? And what would that have taught DD about her own place in the proceedings? Sometimes you hurt people, and the way they react is hurtful to YOU, and that absolves you of the original hurt you caused? Another valid lesson? No? I have enough trouble parenting my kids, i can't be parenting my friends as well!


to the bolded, i've seen ADULTS behaving that way.. expecting people to get over something because 'well it was just a joke!' and just insisting others are too sensitive.

I think a lot of things shouldn't be done with an audience for the kids sake, but I do absolutely think there are occasions where it should. It doesn't always click with people if you tell them 'they are hurt' if they can't SEE the hurt. 'you meant it as a joke, but look... no one is laughing and people are crying' has a lot more power when you can SEE the crying and really feel the lack of laughter. I don't see it as rubbing anything in at all.

I personally do that with my two year old. 'look, they are sad because xyz, what can you do to make it better?' It works so much better than just pulling her into another room and talking about how people are hurt... she needs to really experience that hurt to believe it. And once she does, she gets it and is more than happy to make it better and feels proud when she can. She clearly doesn't feel shamed... she wants to make things better but doesn't know how until she truly understands things need to actually be made better.

Some kids just won't believe people are hurt and misunderstood the joke if they can't see the hurt. They just won't.. and then they grow into adults who just expect everyone to stop being 'oversensitive' when things get misunderstood and can potentially have a lot of social problems because of it.

You weren't calling your kid bad... you were making sure she was clear about the effects of her actions. She had to face them rather than just brush them away. Some kids need that.


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## purplerose (Dec 27, 2010)

Quote:


> Some kids just won't believe people are hurt and misunderstood the joke if they can't see the hurt. They just won't.. and then they grow into adults who just expect everyone to stop being 'oversensitive' when things get misunderstood and can potentially have a lot of social problems because of it.


How do you deal with those types of adults? Is there ever a chance of getting through? I have someone very close to me exactly like that...he can't handle emotions from other people (not even love) and his wife takes antianxiety meds to keep from being "emotional". He can't see when he has hurt someone or why someone would get upset when he doesn't know to STOP teasing or whatever. He doesn't seem to see the need to apologize. Life for me is much easier being an emotional person and letting it all hang out, than trying to deal with someone like that.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *purplerose*
> 
> How do you deal with those types of adults? Is there ever a chance of getting through? I have someone very close to me exactly like that...he can't handle emotions from other people (not even love) and his wife takes antianxiety meds to keep from being "emotional". He can't see when he has hurt someone or why someone would get upset when he doesn't know to STOP teasing or whatever. He doesn't seem to see the need to apologize. Life for me is much easier being an emotional person and letting it all hang out, than trying to deal with someone like that.


I generally wouldn't spend time with people like that. Alternatively, you can approach the matter more pragmatically, explaining that an apology is an act that would help you feel like your need for respect was being met, and without an apology you are going to meet that need for respect by respecting yourself enough not to be near him. If mid teasing you can say "I am going to stop you there to ask you to either cease this behavior or I'm going to go before I hear something I can't unhear." calmly, cooly, and with total seriousness.

I think empathy is difficult to teach, but most people do not want to upset people so rather than get into a battle of wills over making them recognize and validate your pain (which they may not be able to do), just give them the steps to make it better. Don't expect them to listen or empathize or say "there there, you're right, I was wrong and hurtful." Just tell them how to fix it if they can or walk away if they cannot.

When DS is insensitive and if he says "It's just a joke mommy!" I generally respond with a logical consequence such as walking away from him and going to another room to do something else explaining that I don't hang out with people who think it is funny to call someone names or play tricks on their friends and he shouldn't either.

So far this has put the kabosh on the "i'm just kidding!" phase.

ETA: I don't need him to believe that he is being hurtful, or see that I am or others are hurt, I just need him to make an informed decision about how he is going to use his words by being exposed to the logical social consequences of being mean.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamakay*
> 
> Are time outs and rewards "not GD?"


Some people would say that they aren't.

I am comfortable with time outs and rewards being things that we use in our family (and we have four pleasant children).


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamakay*
> 
> Are time outs and rewards "not GD?"


One thing I think I'm learning from this thread is that GD is a lot like AP....it's sort of an umbrella concept that encompasses many different ideas. The only constants (that I can figure out....someone more knowledgeable can correct me if I'm wrong) are: no physical/corporal punishment and no punishments or means of discipline that utilize cruelty, shaming, yelling, etc. Basically any means of discipline that is effective because it instills fear into a child would be verboten under the GD "umbrella".


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## mamakay (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coffeegirl*
> 
> One thing I think I'm learning from this thread is that GD is a lot like AP....it's sort of an umbrella concept that encompasses many different ideas. The only constants (that I can figure out....someone more knowledgeable can correct me if I'm wrong) are: no physical/corporal punishment and no punishments or means of discipline that utilize cruelty, shaming, yelling, etc. Basically any means of discipline that is effective because it instills fear into a child would be verboten under the GD "umbrella".


Well, my kids are "afraid" of getting grounded. Like, my (naturally "spirited") 7 yo? I don't think he really believes he would be at a higher risk of death/injury/whatever if he were to wander miles away. I'm pretty sure his primary reason for staying within his wandering boundaries (basically, close enough to where if he screams, I can hear him) is fear of getting grounded, at this point in his intellectual development.

My (naturally "mellow") 3 yo is kind of "afraid" of timeout, even tho our timeouts are not timed (usually 2 seconds), not intentionally punitive, and are simply used as a way of "resetting" a situation. She's "afraid" of getting sent to timeout vs leaving the dog alone, or whatever it is that I need her to do/not do. With her, I probably could do CL, but I'd honestly be in a bad mood rather often if several times a day I had to spend 20 minutes trying to reason her out of messing with the dog when the dog was showing signs of wanting to be left alone (or whatever.) I don't think she really understands/believes that the dog does not actually like it when she puts her fingers in his nose and stuff.

I *feel* like I practice GD. Talking and explaining and reasoning is always my first response. I think the idea that the only "currency" parents have, with even the most challenging kids, is "fear of being hit by someone much bigger than you" ...is kinda silly. I do expect a certain amount of "obedience", but I don't expect (or even want) it to be unquestioning. I say "Because I said so" so infrequently (once a year?) that when I say it, it freaks my kid out and he knows something really serious/unusual is going on.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamakay*
> 
> Well, my kids are "afraid" of getting grounded. Like, my (naturally "spirited") 7 yo? I don't think he really believes he would be at a higher risk of death/injury/whatever if he were to wander miles away. I'm pretty sure his primary reason for staying within his wandering boundaries (basically, close enough to where if he screams, I can hear him) is fear of getting grounded, at this point in his intellectual development.
> 
> ...


What I posted is just my perception of what GD is, most of my info coming from this board. It may be incorrect or perhaps too limited. Any time you use punishments, there's going to be a certain amount of fear involved. I personally believe that a certain amount of fear of authority is healthy and good. We're afraid of speeding, for instance, even if there's no other cars around to cause a wreck, because we know that it's against the law and we could be ticketed. The "fear of God" that religious folk talk about is seen as a good thing by those who believe in it. Etc., etc.

I've seen many, many mamas on this board explain that the fear issue is exactly why they don't use punitive discipline, and they consider themselves practitioners of GD.

Maybe Gentle Discipline is too broad to be defined in any way beyond "no screaming or yelling and no physical/corporal means of discipline"?


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## zacsmum (May 29, 2011)

My understanding of gentle discipline does not involve fear of any kind of punishment - grounding, time out, whatever. It involves encouraging cooperation based on your relationship with your child and his trust in you that the limits you set are in his best interest, empathising with him when he gets upset about a limit he doesn't like, but still standing firm. There shouldn't be too much reasoning or explanations - just being clear and simple about what is expected and following through when needed.

I personally don't want my child living in fear of what will happen if he does/doesn't do the right thing. I want him to do the right thing because he can see the benefit of it for himself (eg better relationships with others, not getting hurt, etc).


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I do think of GD as an umbrella term that means basically no physical punishment, no humiliating, no abusive language, that kind of thing. I personally don't punish, but punishment can certainly be done gently. I think it's good we have people who practice a variety of styles of GD so when someone is looking for suggestions, they get a variety of answers and can find something that feels right to them. A greater number of opinions and views can give us all greater perspective.


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