# feeling like AP/GD is a crock. RANT/VENT



## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

let me just preface this by saying i am extremely frustrated right now--so that's probably coloring my perspective more than a little









i'm visiting my parents with DD and she refuses to nap (even though she still NEEDS to), which makes her not want to go to bed either







:

DH is not here with us, so i'm dealing with her all.the.time. like from 7:30 am till 10:30 pm. not good.

she's almost 27 months old, and i feel like i am frustrated and resentful with her 95% of the time (even before this visit it was getting bad, maybe not 95% bad--more like 85%).

we've co-slept her whole life (just now she is starting the night in her own room), laid with her to sleep, never CIO'd, not once. i still nurse her. i make sure she gets outside time and activity every day. i intentionally slowed down my career to stay home with her part-time. i feed her healthy, whole foods. she is in a great daycare situation with very loving and responsive caregivers. we have never hit or spanked. we practice logical/natural consequences and redirection.

and i feel like all i have to show for this AP "resume" is a brat who whines incessantly and never, ever listens to me. i try not to tell her no, but sometimes i *have* to ask her not to do something (pull the cats' tails), and it never works. if anything, asking her not to prompts her doing it even more--and then if i physically remove her from whatever it is (tonight it was dipping her foot in the cat water bowl, which my parents asked her to stop, and we couldn't move the bowl up because then the cats couldn't get to it), she will bite/kick/scratch/pinch. closing doors to keep her away from something doesn't work because she can open them...

the pinching...is absurd. she pinches me, often on the face or neck, when she's mad, bored, or even just feeling playful. we can be having a good time, and she just starts in on me. she says "mama, i wanna pinch. mama, i wanna bite." i can put her down and walk away, but i am seething inside, because we're talking 25 times a day minimum i am being hit/pinched/bit, sometimes when i expect it and other times not.

yesterday she was crawling on the floor of the grocery store. it was storming outside, like flash flood level storm. i wanted to carry her out, but that was impossible. even if it hadn't been raining, she was literally digging her nails into my arm and twisting my arm skin as hard as she could. it HURT like HELL. i cannot physically restrain/contain her in those situations. she is like the strongest 29 pound person i can even imagine.

and then of course she won't sleep. she stays up entirely too late after being tired all afternoon. she runs around non-stop. and the worst thing about this part is even if i wanted to use TV as a distraction, to give me a break, she will watch for about 2 minutes max. she is just not able to watch it. i don't know why. no interest.

and the whining...."i want go outside. i want crackers. i want see pool. i want touchin' the cat. i want touchin' the wall." i mean thing after thing after thing she wants to do. and even if we do one of them, then it's onto the next thing. she is never satisfied, constantly wanting something, and never asks for it in a normal tone, always a whine--i don't even know WHAT it is about. i honestly don't.

i am torn between feeling like i have some sort of serious emotional problem and feeling like she is just extremely difficult. DH is fine with her. thinks her behavior is normal/interesting/cute. i find myself angry, resentful, wanting to set boundaries but feeling overpowered/outmatched (yes, overpowered by a 2 year old. how pathetic is that?). of course she is by far the most aggressive toward me









i feel bullied and beaten and just exhausted.

and the worst part is, i really feel like if i had CIO'd and set limits at an early age, we would not be dealing with this behavior. she would go to bed at 8 like all the other kids i know IRL. i also feel like, to be honest, GD does not work with this kid. like if you spanked her, it would get through to her when nothing else does.

that said, i am not going to spank her. i remember how it made me feel as a child, and i just don't think i could even do it, no matter how much i might want to at times. i do yell, though, way more than i should...because i am so insanely frustrated. and sometimes i feel like, okay, if i spanked her, and it corrected the behavior, and then i felt better toward her and was nicer, and she was better...wouldn't that be healthier than "gentle" discipline where i am constantly mad, yelling, begging her to stop, and feeling out of control? like, how much am i damaging her attachment to me by laying her
down on the bed and snarling at her that "it's time to lie down and go to bed NOW. i am NOT F-ING PLAYING AROUND. etc."

this is just the most frustrating thing i've ever dealt with in my life. i literally feel like 90% of the stress in my life comes from parenting, and this is with a marriage, and a house, and a career...is that NORMAL? please, can someone tell me if there's something wrong with her or me, or what i can DO? because i am worried i will never ever like her, and she'll end up completely screwed up


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

Aww... I'm so sorry you're going through this right now.

For what it's worth, my 4 1/2 year old generally doesn't act like that anymore. She can entertain herself. She no longer has tantrums every day. She probably only tries to physically hurt me once a week.

When she was that age, she was a lot like your daughter, except that she would watch TV, something I reluctantly embraced right around that time (her brother had recently been born, and would not nurse or fall asleep if she was talking to me or I was talking to her).

She even goes to sleep in a reasonable amount of time now. She still won't take naps (no matter how badly she needs one!), though.

Oh, and regarding the grocery store -- I have often needed to use the strap to buckle one of my kids into the cart and step a foot or two away, so they can't hurt me. At that age, neither of them were able to undo the strap or wriggle out if it was tight enough.


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

BTDT (except the biting and pinching. Ouch. How are you responding to that?)

It gets better.

It sounds like you need a break, and your DD needs some more boundaries. It sounds like she needs more sleep, as well.

In the grocery store, she has to ride in the cart. No negotiating. Tell her her past behavior has been unacceptable, so this time, she's riding in the cart, and that's OK. If ou have to, pull it from the front so he can't hurt you. Give her a "grocery list" so she can "help."

Giving choices has helped a lot with DD.

Have you read "The Explosive Child"? Recommended here often.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *_betsy_* 
BTDT (except the biting and pinching. Ouch. How are you responding to that?)

a lot of "no biting, biting hurts; no pinching, pinching hurts."










when i say this, i get down on her level, grab her wrists to try to restrain her from hurting me, make eye contact (she likes to swipe at me when i get "serious" and look at her like this)...

Quote:


It sounds like you need a break, and your DD needs some more boundaries.
yes. part of the problem is DH is much more tolerant of all kinds of behavior from her. not to say he never gets frustrated, but he allows a lot. like jumping off of all kinds of things. and throwing shoes in the pool. to the point that she then thinks it's fine to do those things, even though i don't want her to.

he also seems to think her tantrums are amusing in some way. the hitting/biting even sometimes, i guess because she's so strong-willed, it's like it pleases him in some way to see that?

Quote:


It sounds like she needs more sleep, as well.

hells to the yeah. she was at least sleeping better before we went on this trip. the excitement of grandparents' house is probably partly to blame here.

Quote:


In the grocery store, she has to ride in the cart. No negotiating. Tell her her past behavior has been unacceptable, so this time, she's riding in the cart, and that's OK. If ou have to, pull it from the front so he can't hurt you. Give her a "grocery list" so she can "help."

i tried making her sit in the cart, but she stood up. i guess they can't stand up with the strap buckled, right? note to self: buckle strap.

Quote:

Giving choices has helped a lot with DD.

at what age did that start to work? my sense is DD is simply frustrated by choices. she seems to want both, and neither, and something else. all at once.

Quote:

Have you read "The Explosive Child"? Recommended here often.
no, but i probably ought to!


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

This isn't about how you discipline at all. This is about inconsistant boundaries, lack of sleep, and at the moment - being away from home. If she's sleep deprived AND your husband doesn't play by the rules, you're already in the hole. You need to get him on the same page. If she's getting plenty of play time, good food, and lacking sleep...when you get home, maybe read Sleepless In America. For us, it turned around how we approached sleep with our daughter who has always been a TERRIBLE sleeper. I finally understood that when you have one that does not ever slow down on her own, who fights sleep, there are things you can do to help her get to that place where she is ready to sleep.

I noticed a lot of your examples are sensory-seeking - she needs to squeeze, she needs to touch, etc. Do you think there's something going on there?

Hugs hugs hugs for you. It's so hard to be away from home and dealing on your own AND tired.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Any kid would be a handful after 15 hrs straight of him or her. You deserve a medal for the amount of patience you have had thus far! I think your dd is acting age appropriate and I also think you need to come to the realization that what you are doing is futile. It's not working so stop thinking it will. Try focusing on connecting with your dd relationally first and foremost. I don't know what form that will take for you but discipline should come easier if your attachment is the strongest it can be. I am reading "hold onto your kids" right now- these are some ideas from it. It also must be tough faced with your parents unspoken expectations of your parenting and dd's behavior. Makes everything more tense and hard to handle!! Mostly I just think you have a 2 yr old







: It'll get better!


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I second "Sleepless in America". I really like "Kids, Parents & Power Struggles" too. (Both are by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka.)

First, it sounds like your daughter is very verbal for her age, which is good and bad. We tend to treat really verbal kids as older than they are. (I know, I do this with dd all.the.time, and then kick myself later.) We tend to expect a level of comprehension and compliance that they just aren't developmentally ready to give.

So, I would back up a bit and be a bit more 'toddler' oriented in my parenting/discipline for a while. So, that means, in my book, saying things once (if they've heard you) and then physically guiding them. I know this freaks some GD/AP people out, but I'm not talking about holding your child down (though I've done that to keep her from kicking me). I'm talking about gently moving over to her, removing foot from the bleeping bowl and taking her to another room. Calmly and consistently. You can warn her or give her a 'choice' if you want. "Do you want to move your body or do you want me to do it?" "If you don't choose, I will help."

Remember too to tell her what to do, not what not to do. So, "don't step in the bowl" doesn't give her anything else to think about. "Take your foot out and get a towel" does.

Also, see if there are ways in which you can allow her to get the same sensation. So, if she wants to put her foot in water, can you set up a dishpan outside for her to splash in? Is there someplace where she CAN throw rocks? (Kids LOVE to throw stones into water.) I'd get a squeeze toy of some sort to give her when she's mad.

For physically (or verbally, now that my kids are older) hurting someone, when my kids were this age, we did two things. First, they were taken up to their rooms, plopped in their cribs and I walked away until I (or dh) cooled down. Dh called it 'levitating' them to their room. Once I was calm, then I went back in, reminded them to be 'gentle' and kept it at that. Essentially, if you hurt me, I don't want to be with you. Now, with a 27 month old, the separation needs to be short, so you need to practice deep breathing. But I really don't believe in giving a child a second chance to hit me. Maybe I'm cruel, I dunno.

I think it's OK to have different rules for dh, but you should agree on a few basics. Personally, I'd say throwing stones in the pool is out because they're a pain to get out of a swimming pool. (If it's a pond, I rescind that totally.)

Finally, YOU NEED A BREAK. I'm a lousy parent when I'm feeling touched out, talked out, tested out, etc. I actually (cruel me) sent both my kids away for 10 minutes tonight after dinner. It's insanely hot for where we live (106 today), and my office is un-airconditioned and faces west. I came home hot, tired, and cranky, needing to cook dinner because dh's got a big project due on Thursday. I NEEDED time to recover. After that, we went to the park.

Can you leave your dd with your parents for an hour and go for a walk? Sit in a coffee shop and read the paper? Something, anything.


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## elisheva (May 30, 2006)

I agree about setting boundaries and getting dh on board. We are going through almost the exact same thing with our 2.5 year old. I got to the point where giving him some sort of time out and/or natural consequence was keeping me from wanting to smack him... I figure 2 minutes in his room is better than being smacked any day, right? He's only now getting the idea that behaviours have consequences. Today he was throwing sand at the park. I said, "please stop throwing sand or we will leave the park." Then I asked him if he wanted to leave the park. Obviously the answer was no so I said, "then please leave the sand on the ground."

BUT, he's only JUST getting this idea...

Re: sleeping. Same situation. It was driving me nuts. We cosleep. He doesn't nurse any more. If he naps, he's up until 1030 and I have a younger ds2 who doesn't nap at the same time in spite of my best efforts, so I just NEEDED ds1 to go to bed at a reasonable time (is 8ish too much to ask?) so I could have a few moments to myself without being climbed on, refereeing, supervising, entertaining, etc. Getting him to bed even if he hadn't napped was turning into a nightmare.

So, we did something a little radical that I heard about from a friend. It's not exactly CIO because I'm right there, but we strap him into his stroller if he doesn't lie quietly with one of us. I sit right in front of him within arms reach. When he cries, I hold his hand. I remind him it's time to sleep. It takes 15-20 minutes of on/off crying, but he falls asleep and I move him to the bed. He never learned to calm himself down - we read him stories, cuddle him in bed, lay with him in the dark...and still he gets up to jump on the bed or run from the room screaming. This would go on for two hours or more. Again, is it nicer to set a limit or be frustrated with him for 2 hours? Not saying this is a solution everyone will like, but it works for us. We've only been doing it for a week, but already I find myself able to cope better during the day. I'm kinder because I'm not dreading the bed-time hassle and I've had a few minutes to myself. YMMV


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## staceychev (Mar 5, 2005)

Aw, mama. I feel for you! So sorry you're going through this!

I agree with a lot of what the PPs have said. I also want to throw out the idea of the "half year" to give you a light at the end of the tunnel. I remember my stepmom (who, with my dad, has an 8YO) telling me that the second half of the year was worse than the first, as in the time from 3.5 to 4, as opposed to the time from 3 to 3.5. Maybe it's a self-fulfillng prophecy, but I've absolutely seen this with my daughter. Things seem to start to clear up, developmentally, around her birthdays.

In terms of sleeping, I'm wondering what kind of pre-sleep you do with her. We were a nurse-to-sleep, cosleep family for quite a while, but as DD got bigger, it just got harder and harder on both me and DH. We decided she needed some sort of more consistent sleep routine (a la Elizabeth Pantley's _No Cry Sleep Solution_). We sat down and had a family meeting one night (I want to say DD was around 3 at the time) and discussed what was going to happen in the evening. As we made decisions, DH, who's a good artist, drew pictures of each stage. We included dinner, bath, "family activity," which is usually a board game, milk, books, and bed. It's _really_ helped a lot. The bonus is that family activity has become a great tradition in our family, and something that neither DH nor I did growing up.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
I second "Sleepless in America". I really like "Kids, Parents & Power Struggles" too. (Both are by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka.)

First, it sounds like your daughter is very verbal for her age, which is good and bad. We tend to treat really verbal kids as older than they are. (I know, I do this with dd all.the.time, and then kick myself later.) We tend to expect a level of comprehension and compliance that they just aren't developmentally ready to give.

So, I would back up a bit and be a bit more 'toddler' oriented in my parenting/discipline for a while. So, that means, in my book, saying things once (if they've heard you) and then physically guiding them. I know this freaks some GD/AP people out, but I'm not talking about holding your child down (though I've done that to keep her from kicking me). I'm talking about gently moving over to her, removing foot from the bleeping bowl and taking her to another room. Calmly and consistently. You can warn her or give her a 'choice' if you want. "Do you want to move your body or do you want me to do it?" "If you don't choose, I will help."

Remember too to tell her what to do, not what not to do. So, "don't step in the bowl" doesn't give her anything else to think about. "Take your foot out and get a towel" does.

Also, see if there are ways in which you can allow her to get the same sensation. So, if she wants to put her foot in water, can you set up a dishpan outside for her to splash in? Is there someplace where she CAN throw rocks? (Kids LOVE to throw stones into water.) I'd get a squeeze toy of some sort to give her when she's mad.

For physically (or verbally, now that my kids are older) hurting someone, when my kids were this age, we did two things. First, they were taken up to their rooms, plopped in their cribs and I walked away until I (or dh) cooled down. Dh called it 'levitating' them to their room. Once I was calm, then I went back in, reminded them to be 'gentle' and kept it at that. Essentially, if you hurt me, I don't want to be with you. Now, with a 27 month old, the separation needs to be short, so you need to practice deep breathing. But I really don't believe in giving a child a second chance to hit me. Maybe I'm cruel, I dunno.

I think it's OK to have different rules for dh, but you should agree on a few basics. Personally, I'd say throwing stones in the pool is out because they're a pain to get out of a swimming pool. (If it's a pond, I rescind that totally.)

Finally, YOU NEED A BREAK. I'm a lousy parent when I'm feeling touched out, talked out, tested out, etc. I actually (cruel me) sent both my kids away for 10 minutes tonight after dinner. It's insanely hot for where we live (106 today), and my office is un-airconditioned and faces west. I came home hot, tired, and cranky, needing to cook dinner because dh's got a big project due on Thursday. I NEEDED time to recover. After that, we went to the park.

Can you leave your dd with your parents for an hour and go for a walk? Sit in a coffee shop and read the paper? Something, anything.


Really, every single thing Lynn said I second! I am not a huge "time out" person but in my house, when DD turned 3, it became automatic for physical violence. We do not hit, we do not hurt other people, and it is just never ok. That said, I didn't start that until we had reached a point where I knew she understood that--when I had gently removed the offending hand 1000 times and told her that we don't hit, and I just instinctively reached a point where I realized that wasn't working.

My DD tested me in many similar ways when she turned 3. (2 was a breeze!) It was constant and really, really challenging. I think last year is really when we laid the bulk of the foundation of her good manners--it wasn't easy, but we did try to be consistent about what was ok and what was not and now at 4--things are SO MUCH BETTER. Really, I haven't had to hide in my bathroom for a grown up time out in several months!

I also agree with the language. DD is precociously verbal, and I think my and others expectations were not always in line with 3 years old. I had to do a LOT of verbal coaching on how to speak. "Mommy, get me juice"--ok, it's great you can talk now, but let's work on asking nicely and not demanding. You can make it a funny game sometimes too.

I also think the lack of structure in summer time can exacerbate all of these issues. Schedules change, teachers change, you go to new places, etc...


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## Heidi74 (Jan 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elisheva* 
So, we did something a little radical that I heard about from a friend. It's not exactly CIO because I'm right there, but we strap him into his stroller if he doesn't lie quietly with one of us. I sit right in front of him within arms reach. When he cries, I hold his hand. I remind him it's time to sleep. It takes 15-20 minutes of on/off crying, but he falls asleep and I move him to the bed. He never learned to calm himself down - we read him stories, cuddle him in bed, lay with him in the dark...and still he gets up to jump on the bed or run from the room screaming. This would go on for two hours or more. Again, is it nicer to set a limit or be frustrated with him for 2 hours? Not saying this is a solution everyone will like, but it works for us. We've only been doing it for a week, but already I find myself able to cope better during the day. I'm kinder because I'm not dreading the bed-time hassle and I've had a few minutes to myself. YMMV

I'm so glad someone mentioned this, because we do this too. I've felt a little bit guilty about it...like it's not in the spirit of GD, but when DS1 (23 mos) is so overtired that he won't nap in his crib or with a parent (and he really is overtired...it's not that he doesn't need a nap) I will also strap him into the stroller and either go for a walk or just roll it back and forth inside. It's a really comfortable stroller (Mountain Buggy with a full recline, and a sheepskin to sleep on), and he is used to sleeping there for naps...but I do feel bad about him crying for a few minutes while I strap him in. I give him the choice of getting into the stroller on his own, or letting me do it for him, but if he doesn't climb into the stroller voluntarily, DH or I will physically put him there. Typically, if we do this, he protests while we strap him in (and we talk very calmly to him while we are doing it...it's just that he's so tired he won't listen to common sense), and then he quiets down and falls asleep within five minutes. I guess I feel that the few minutes of crying is better than him being completely and totally exhausted and fussy for the rest of the day... This method is almost guaranteed to work with him...it's the one napping spot where we KNOW he will fall asleep within minutes if he really is tired.

Good to know I'm not the only one...


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## mum21andtwins (Nov 8, 2007)

I've BTDT my perspective changed when we had twins I now have 2yo twins and a 5y/o all boys. I used to take ds1 to the netherland every couple of months for a week which meant a 7-10 hour journey.

_**i'm visiting my parents with DD and she refuses to nap (even though she still NEEDS to), which makes her not want to go to bed either







:_

with naptime I would lie down with him even if he didn't sleep he would wind down and have some downtime

_**DH is not here with us, so i'm dealing with her all.the.time. like from 7:30 am till 10:30 pm. not good._

this won't change right? don't focus on it. its to negative, you start to feel sory for yourself and you start ro feel resentful not helping the allready difficult situation. I know it is easier said than done though

_**we've co-slept her whole life (just now she is starting the night in her own room), laid with her to sleep, never CIO'd, not once. i still nurse her. i make sure she gets outside time and activity every day. i intentionally slowed down my career to stay home with her part-time. i feed her healthy, whole foods. she is in a great daycare situation with very loving and responsive caregivers. we have never hit or spanked. we practice logical/natural consequences and redirection._

This reads like you feel she should be grateful for what you have done for her and she isn't which is making you resentful towards her. I had that with ds1 for awhile but you know *I* choose to have him and *I* choose to raise him this way. if all this was my choice why was I frustrated by his reaction after all he didn't ask for any of it. At this age they do what they do not to be spitefull and the attitude/behaviour is not just a reflection of us the parents. it is a reflection of the situation the environment dc is in at that time and how well dc feels.

a_nd i feel like all i have to show for this AP "resume" is a brat who whines incessantly and never, ever listens to me. i try not to tell her no, but sometimes i *have* to ask her not to do something (pull the cats' tails), and it never works. if anything, asking her not to prompts her doing it even more--and then if i physically remove her from whatever it is (tonight it was dipping her foot in the cat water bowl, which my parents asked her to stop, and we couldn't move the bowl up because then the cats couldn't get to it), she will bite/kick/scratch/pinch. closing doors to keep her away from something doesn't work because she can open them..._

No means no. Don't ask her to stop tell her to stop!
if any of my boys hurt our animals they get a no and they get moved away or the animal gets moved whichever is easiest. and you repeat the next time again and again and again untill it sticks
with the dipping the feet in the cats water. how about giving her her own waterdish. big towel on the floor (or outside if the weather is good) an let her have fun try to find a yes rather than giving a no

_the pinching...is absurd. she pinches me, often on the face or neck, when she's mad, bored, or even just feeling playful. we can be having a good time, and she just starts in on me. she says "mama, i wanna pinch. mama, i wanna bite." i can put her down and walk away, but i am seething inside, because we're talking 25 times a day minimum i am being hit/pinched/bit, sometimes when i expect it and other times not._

dd: mama I wanna pinch
mama: You want to pinch what would you like to pinch honey
dd: you
mama: wel pinching mama hurts lets pinch the sofa instead

If she doesn't want to pinch the sofa go trough the house to find something that she does want to pinch. maybe make a up a bag of goo (we used to do something in school with washingpowder and washingup liquid I will see if I can find a recipe) and let her pinch that instead

_yesterday she was crawling on the floor of the grocery store. it was storming outside, like flash flood level storm. i wanted to carry her out, but that was impossible. even if it hadn't been raining, she was literally digging her nails into my arm and twisting my arm skin as hard as she could. it HURT like HELL. i cannot physically restrain/contain her in those situations. she is like the strongest 29 pound person i can even imagine._
the natural consequence woul be she gets drenched if the shop is close by enough for her not to sit in her wet clothing to long let her go

_
and then of course she won't sleep. she stays up entirely too late after being tired all afternoon. she runs around non-stop. and the worst thing about this part is even if i wanted to use TV as a distraction, to give me a break, she will watch for about 2 minutes max. she is just not able to watch it. i don't know why. no interest._

I don't know any 2y/o who does want to sit still

_and the whining...."i want go outside. i want crackers. i want see pool. i want touchin' the cat. i want touchin' the wall." i mean thing after thing after thing she wants to do. and even if we do one of them, then it's onto the next thing. she is never satisfied, constantly wanting something, and never asks for it in a normal tone, always a whine--i don't even know WHAT it is about. i honestly don't._

Out of curiousity see how many things you want/need in an hour and preten you have to ask someone for every single thing you want. Also you have been in this world for quite some time you know what a cat feels like and what a pool looks like but to her it is still interesting

_i am torn between feeling like i have some sort of serious emotional problem and feeling like she is just extremely difficult. DH is fine with her. thinks her behavior is normal/interesting/cute. i find myself angry, resentful, wanting to set boundaries but feeling overpowered/outmatched (yes, overpowered by a 2 year old. how pathetic is that?). of course she is by far the most aggressive toward me







_

She is most aggresive towards you because she trusts you the most. take is as a compliment and I know that sounds weird!

_and the worst part is, i really feel like if i had CIO'd and set limits at an early age, we would not be dealing with this behavior. she would go to bed at 8 like all the other kids i know IRL. i also feel like, to be honest, GD does not work with this kid. like if you spanked her, it would get through to her when nothing else does._

She is 2 right her behaviour _is_ normal, spanking would teach her what it tought me to lie to get what you want and avoid spanking, to not trust my parents and it has taken a lot of work (and is taking a lot of work!) to undo the damage the aggresive upbringing did to me.

She is two use it as a mantra she is two she will learn it will be ok. I have to say when I look back at when ds1 was 2 and now having 2 2y/o I wonder why on earth I complained so much then and it has also made me realise that thats what children do not because they are trying to be mean but because they are learning everything still .

I like reading Sandra's site when I get frustrated stuck etc and often find something useful to me


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## mountainsun (Jan 11, 2005)

Just wanted to offer some ((hugs)).

Honestly,it sounds to me like you need a BREAK.

And while at Grandmas, I think you just have to let things go a bit - the excitment of being somewhere different is probably not helping with the sleeping. I know whenever we are not at home, we just have to let bedtime fly out the window.

This can be a hard age









This too shall pass.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I agree with the other posts, but I have one other small suggestion. For some kids, if you say "don't pinch", rather than getting them to stop pinching it gives them this visual of pinching in their head, which makes them actually think more about pinching and have a stronger compulsion to do it. I would tell her to stop without using the word "pinching" at all. Like, "Be gentle" or something.


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

Yeah, it sounds like there's a LOT going on right now, and it's amplifying pretty typical 2 yo behavior.

I would NOT tolerate the pinching, though.

Quote:

a lot of "no biting, biting hurts; no pinching, pinching hurts."

when i say this, i get down on her level, grab her wrists to try to restrain her from hurting me, make eye contact (she likes to swipe at me when i get "serious" and look at her like this)...
Sounds like you're exacerbating the problem, not helping her understand boudaries, but revving her up even more with this approach.

What happens if she pinches, or is about to pinch, and you respond in a very exaggerated way like "OH NO! Pleeeaaase don't pinch Mama! (or GENTLE HANDS!) That HURTS! Owie!" all said while getting away from her - stand up and move away, keeping your face toward her at all times. You have to "engage to disengage" as Linda Budd says in "Living with the Active Alert Child" (which I'm reading right now).

Physically restraining her is just going to make her want to oppose you, no matter what you say or why you're saying it. You're trying to teach her that physical pain is no way to control someone else - so don't do that WHILE exerting your control with a physical presence.

Sounds simple, but have you tried assuring her she won't miss anything if she takes a break? I often have to tell DD1 that it's OK to take a break, it's OK to rest, and she won't miss anything. I tell her what everyone else in the house is going to do while she takes a break. It really helped in the beginning of doing this if I told her I was going to lay down to (even if I wasn't, she sleeps best in her own bed in her own room).

You really have to work on getting DH on the same page - try talking about his lack of boundaries when things are calm, and not as something is happening. One thing that really struck DH when we talked about this sort of a problem was when I said I didn't feel like he supported me when he OKed DD1 breaking my rules. And really, a pool is nothing to mess around with, and there needs to be strict rules regarding its proper use and your DD's supervision around it. (Even if it's just a baby pool).


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole* 
This isn't about how you discipline at all. This is about inconsistant boundaries, lack of sleep, and at the moment - being away from home. If she's sleep deprived AND your husband doesn't play by the rules, you're already in the hole. You need to get him on the same page. If she's getting plenty of play time, good food, and lacking sleep...when you get home, maybe read Sleepless In America. For us, it turned around how we approached sleep with our daughter who has always been a TERRIBLE sleeper. I finally understood that when you have one that does not ever slow down on her own, who fights sleep, there are things you can do to help her get to that place where she is ready to sleep.

I noticed a lot of your examples are sensory-seeking - she needs to squeeze, she needs to touch, etc. Do you think there's something going on there?

Hugs hugs hugs for you. It's so hard to be away from home and dealing on your own AND tired.

I absolutely reiterate this. That book was very helpful to us at about the age your child is now. Ditto the reminder to give her something to do, not something NOT to do. Also LOADS of active, sensory play.

It gets better. Hang in there. And get a break if you possibly can.


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## Sunflower223 (Feb 22, 2007)

I think that the main problem is boundaries and consistency as others have said. I do want to say that my mother (in her sixties) is raising my nephew right now and he acts exactly the same way as you described your daughter, I'd be willing to bet much worse. He is also 72 lbs and 4 years old so my mother can't do much to physically restrain him(she also can't tell him no when he wants cookies for breakfast). She does however spank him and thinks thats the only way to discipline, so no, spanking would not make any difference in this situation, and if anything would make it worse. I feel the same way you do at times but I have clear examples to prove me wrong like my nephew. Spanking would not make a difference, in any sort of positive way.

You have to be consistent in whatever you do, DH has to get on board with this as well. The lack of sleep and new place is likely contributing greatly (I just got back from a 2 week visit with some of Dh's friends and my kids were a total nightmare while we were there. Now that we are home they are greatly mellowed out.)

As for your negative feelings toward dd. You need a break. I have been there. When things get that rough I find a way to get out for atleast a few hours and I am a hundred times better at being a mom for it.

Hang in there mama. I am by no means perfect, I have my own set or problems to deal with, but I do know they grow out of most of what you are describing. My 4 year old is a totally different little person than she was at 2. The term "terrible two's" came along for a reason ;-)


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## RollerCoasterMama (Jul 22, 2008)

DS is the same age. And my bruised and scratched arms speak for themselves! Last year at this time we were dealing with biting. So fun!

Well...the biting went away with a calmer daycare setting. Which taught me that the aggression is largely sensory overload for my DS. I've read everything I can find...most of the books above plus Raising Your Spirited Child. (highly recommend!)

It's usually me that gets the bulk of the aggressive outbursts. And I think I agree with the PP that it's mama that gets it because the comfort/trust level is highest with me.

We've been actively working on these issues for over a year and it's SOOOOO much better. Here's what's been working for us:

-He's overstimulated more easilly when tired or hungry---we try to be proactive about this whenever possible.
-We schedule activities with his naps and meals in mind. We have friends that say "Oh you have to take him out so he gets used to it" and we have learned to ignore them. Their children are not our child. And the costs just aren't worth the pleasure of seeing our friends for longer. (Plus there's not a lot of pleasure with a screaming pinching hitting toddler!!)
-Limiting tv made a huge difference! We still have a family movie on Sunday nights and I let him watch if he's sick, but when we creep back to week-night tv we can see the behavior difference immediately.
-The sleep thing is HUGE! It's been a struggle. JUST THIS WEEK we seem to have finally found the magic routine. He's been asleep before 8:15 all but one day since Friday! When he's caught up on sleep, it all just goes so much better.
-I try to choose my battles. For us, that means creating an enviroment where there are things to explore, but nothing too dangerous. It's not entirely baby-proofed. But the knives are locked in the one door with a latch. And when he's messed with the cat water one too many times, we have gates on both sides of the kitchen.

Visiting family is HARD. Esp since we don't see them very often ... it all adds up to a very crispy kid with no tollerance for anything at all after a couple of days. I try to keep the routine as much as possible, but sometimes it just doesn't work.

Do some reading as well about the sensory thing...a lot of the info is for people with severe issues, but the "sensory diet" ideas work well for mild sensory issues as well.

But based on your description, I wouldn't be surprised if at least 50% of your struggle disappeared with an extra hour or two of sleep. And then you'd have time to decompress and you'd be able to face the world again.

Lots of sympathy! I've had days where I just finished dealing with a needy toddler, needy spouse, and then the poor cat meowed at me wanting the scraps my attention and just the thought of one more creature needing me about made me cry. Sounds like you're getting to that point. Hang in there!


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

2 suggestions:

1) Consider reading "The Out of Sync Child Has Fun" and increasing her sensory diet.

2) When mine were giving up their naps (which they did early), I had a "full bed romp" where I layed around with them in bed and snuggled and played and was silly for an hour or so mid-day. Relaxing and fun for me and each of them. Good mid-day down time.


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

Coming back to this, I wanted to emphasize something that I don't think has been said much on this thread.

Remember that parenting is not a short-term project. The point of what you are doing now is not to create a perfectly-behaved child today, but to help your child become a well-adjusted adult.

I'm all for setting boundaries, trying to improve factors like sleep and overstimulation, creating physical separation between you and the child if they're hurting you, etc. But no matter what you do, they may still hit you. You may have to just keep dealing with it however you can until they eventually outgrow it.

With some kids, I am unconvinced that there is ANY reasonable discipline technique that will "work" in terms of getting them to stop doing this stuff. But some discipline techniques nurture your relationship with the child, and some discipline techniques harm your relationship with the child.

Of course we want our kids to stop throwing tantrums in the middle of the grocery store, whining every 5 seconds for help with some new thing, and using us as their own personal punching bags. We may find some ways to modify the behavior in a short time, but we also may just have to wait it out.

Either way, what we do now will make a big difference in our relationships with our children down the road.


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## aspenleaves (Oct 23, 2008)

IT sounds like you are getting some great advice. From reading your post the first thing that comes to mind for me is it sounds like you think that if you put all of these certain ingredients together that you will get a certain outcome? I found myself thinking this along the way. The truth is you choose your parenting AP style for you, not for your children. I know that sounds backward, and of coarse your children benefit from your conscious parenting choices but you are choosing them because you believe they are the best way to raise and nurture your child.... not because you want your child (as a child) to behave like you wish. Right?


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## Snuzzmom (Feb 6, 2008)

Do you need the MDC Vigilante Squad to come have a little "talk" with your husband?







:

He needs to get with the program. That will help a lot, because then you aren't the Mean Mommy and he's the Fun Daddy... a totally unfair dynamic, especially since it sounds like you're the main caregiver.

Lack of sleep, Lord... I know how extreme the difference with my DS when he naps and when he does not, and that's only after one day!! It's truly awful when they won't sleep. My best suggestion here would be do find some threads about starting an earlier routine. If you really meant 10:30PM, that seems awfully late for BOTH of you. Sleep begets sleep. It's totally counter-intuitive to me, but my DS always sleeps better and longer and will NAP if he goes to bed early.

How's her sugar intake? That's the other thing that could be setting her off; somehow, though, I don't get from what you said that that is an issue.

Big hugs. You're doing great-- really.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

There are a lot of good ideas here, but I wanted to touch on getting breaks during the day. Mine is 28 months and he's starting to give up his nap too, and the sleep battles have been epic around here. I noticed that on days that he doesn't nap, I start trying to take little breaks from him all day. A few minutes on the computer here, a load of laundry there, a bathroom break that I don't really need, etc. On days like this, I'm not really getting what I want because I never get a real break, and he starts getting off because I'm not spending any real time with him. So you need to find yourself a way to get a break COMPLETELY AWAY from him and use some of that time to calm yourself about the struggles. Actively letting go of some of this (sleep, specifically) was the best way for me to deal with it.

And I also notice that I start getting really short with DS when I'm feeling like I'm not doing a very good job. It's really hard to me not to take all the screaming/whining/hitting personally. I get down on myself and all my choices, and then my son acts out because I stopped trying, and then I feel more lousy because he's acting out. To counter this, I try to find one or two things every day to do with him that I know I can do successfully. Then I try to look back on that at the end of the day and say, "I did a good job today," even when I don't feel like I did.

We do use time out for violence and some danger issues. My son has this table that he always climbs up on when he wants my attention, and time out is the only thing that has helped him stop this, and yes, we tried lots of climbing on other things, etc. For other things, like not putting feet in cat bowls (for us it is not putting toys in the potty







) using positive statements has made a huge difference for us. I feel like _I'm more positive when I do it, and I feel like I didn't spend the whole day saying "no".

The thing you mention about choices making things worse seems to always happen to us when DS is hungry, and then it's a huge fit about what he wants to eat. I've started just putting something filling on his table that I know he will eat. I know it's not a choice, but he is so much better once I get some food into him.

Best of luck, mama. It sounds like you're having a really rough time. I know that having no help at home makes things really hard. I always feel like I'm in overdrive at the end of the day and then I fall into bed at night dead. ((HUGS)) to you, and please find some time to take a breath and take care of yourself.

----
Leah, SAHM to Andrew 3/31/07 and Jane 3/1/09_


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

This is so un-crunchy.... Sometimes when DS gets like this (though, thank goodness, the other adults in his life are more helpful than the other adults in your life sound), I give him some junk food and he has a sugar crash and falls asleep. Desperate times. Maybe that could count as "consensual living" or something!

Also is she missing her father a lot? Does she get to talk to him? W


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

thank you, thank you, thank you for all the support. i sooo needed it









i had a talk with DH on the phone the other night and he said he is willing to work with me on consistent boundaries, being on the same page about rules, etc.

he is a good daddy--but we just have far different tolerance thresholds for behavior, and different ideas of what's appropriate and what isn't.

i did get a break yesterday (my mom kept DD for ~4 hours) and got to work on my dissertation. working actually really helps me *de-stress* w/my parenting, because once i can cross off something on my to-do list, i feel more relaxed with DD, and it doesn't matter so much if she's being difficult, because i don't need to "do" something else.

i thought a lot about the whole sensory thing, which some of you mentioned.
i completely agree there is something to that with DD. yesterday i tried reframing all of her "misbehavior" as a sensory need, and it worked 95% of the time. like, if she was jumping on a chair, i told her let's get down and jump on this pillow, etc. if she wanted to press all the buttons on the DVD player, i'd give her an old calculator and let her press buttons to her heart's content. i just tried to think of it that way--she needs this sensory experience, how do i let her have it--instead of she's disobeying or not listening. and it really helped.

she REALLY likes manipulating small objects with her hands (like beads). in fact at home we have to watch her very closely because she'll get a screwdriver out and try to unscrew things around the house









so i gave her a small box of beads and some jacks to pour, sort, hide, etc. that helped a TON and kept her entertained for a long time.

i think part of the problem is when she gets "off," and isn't getting what she needs from me, she tries to reconnect by jumping on me, crashing into me, getting all in my face (and sometimes bonking me, even just by accident) and i just HATE it. it doesn't bother DH, but it just makes me feel like i'm being assaulted. i really, really can't stand a lot of roughhousing, and i find myself shutting down and pushing her away









but maybe if i can help her meet her need for sensory stuff in other ways, there won't be as much of that? a win-win situation.

sleep is still an issue, but it's generally *much* better at home (like she naps pretty consistently and goes to bed around 9-9:30), so i'm just chalking it up to vacation.

plus, every few months, she tends to go through a period of not wanting to go to bed till really late--maybe it's a growth spurt/developmental leap.

thank you again so so much.

it really helped also to be reminded that parenting is a marathon, not a sprint, and the test of how well she's "turned out" isn't how she behaves today at age 2. i think i knew that, but i really needed to hear it again


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## RollerCoasterMama (Jul 22, 2008)

Hooray! That's awesome! Isn't it amazing what a stepping back can do?? (And getting a little time to yourself can work miracles!)

About the assaulting you to get your attention -- totally been there!!! DS does it...but one thing I read that really helps...Big squishy bear hugs several times a day. They get extra mama touches, it fills a sensory need, and seems to help with the pokes, prods, crashes, hits, climbing, pulling, etc on the mama.









Keep it up!!!!


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## Hedwig_Fly (Apr 15, 2008)

You've gotten a lot of really great advice so far. I have a couple questions/suggestions based on my personal experience with my girls (I have 3 and they are 5, 3, and 1).

* When your DD is hitting, biting, pinching do you notice a need/drive behind it? After she has accomplished her bite, pinch whatever do you see a sense of release or calming factor?

My middle daughter, when she used to get upset, would have an extreme drive to hurt someone (mostly me). We would try to redirect her - tell her if you really need to bit you are welcome to bit this pillow but you are not allowed to hurt people. This technique did not typically work for her and she ended up more frustrated. Sometimes, as terrible as it is, I would just let her bite me (at least she wasn't biting one of her sisters) and that is when I would notice her need going away. I don't at all think this is a great way to handle it - but after physically trying to keep her from biting me for a period of time I just needed to end the struggle. Oh and all this really started just after she turned 2. We started noticing other issues with her too that just kept getting worse - behavior and physical. She wouldn't go to sleep naps or night time, she would scream allot, she started having terrible eczema on her lower body, very rashy checks, and a distended belly. The now short version of her story is she has food intolerances that manifest in behavior issues. We have now eliminated ~ 24 different foods for her and she is doing 100 times better. We have been able to determine that gluten causes rage type feelings for her and corn causes lots of screaming. Now I'm not saying this is your DD's issue but I just wanted to throw it out there for you to consider. DD2 is still a spirited child but we can at least try to reason with her now and her extreme need to hurt others has gone away (well she's still a now 3 year old so she has her moments of hitting and swiping - but now they are what I consider age appropriate).

* Is your DD the type of child that likes to take in her whole environment? Is she very touchy - as in does she have a need to explore and touch everything in her world? Does she have a hard time calming down when there are too many new things around? Does she have a hard time transitioning?

I have to answer yes to all the above questions regarding my first DD. She is a sensory seeker. She takes in everything new about her world and has a very hard time stopping and decompressing and she has always been this way even as a tiny infant. When she was a baby (and even now sometimes) you could take her to a party or shopping and she would be great, she may not nap but she would be relatively good. However, trying to leave was hard she never wants to stop. Then when we would get home where it was quite and things were familiar she would freak-out into terrible screaming temper tantrums and the only thing we could do was to sit with her, try to support her with comforting words, and wait for her to decompress. Once decompressed she would/will crawl up in our laps for lots of reassurance, hugs, and kisses only then could we move onto bedtime or whatever else we were going to do. Ways we have found to help her before getting to total freak-out - are physical touch is really important, connected time with me, spinning time, dry skin brushing. We have been working to teach her to ask for these things as she starts to feel out of control. For her I believe, she becomes overwhelmed as she tries to understand everything. She also goes through terrible whiney, needy, and just plain out of control periods right before a major jump in development (either physical growth or emotional development). It's like her brain is trying to configure her new world - or as her preschool teacher said think of it like a puzzle she has all figured out - then a period of development comes and scatters all the puzzle pieces - they now have to be reassembled. During the reassembly period - she experiences emotional upheaval then all of a sudden she calms down and is able to show us all the new things she can do. I totally sympathize with you though because DD1 is sometimes so whiney and needy it takes every ounce of my patience. I have to remind myself - when she is that bad she normally just needs me to hold her and rub her skin. I try to ask her if she needs some mommy touch time - will that help her feel better - she almost always says "yes" but sometimes she'll ask for something else.

Well now that I've written you a book (Sorry). I'll send you lots of hugs - try not to be so hard on yourself these little people are just that little people learning and experiencing life for the first time. We are here to guide them and learn along the way how to help them and ourselves become great individuals. Lots of hugs


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Have you tried laying down with her for a nap? It may help her to sleep better and it will help you to refuel your energy. You may also need to be perservearant and tell her that it is nap time now and keep laying her back down beside you for a nap. My dd really needed a set nap time at this age to be able to sleep well. Starting before or after 1 led to difficult nap times, but if we laid down at one she would be asleep quickly. I think that there are some situations in which telling makes more sense than asking and when clear boundaries are important. I don't think that clear boundaries and telling children what needs to happen at times undermines children's ability to grow up to live up to the long term goals that parents have for them.


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## greeba (Nov 30, 2004)

Going through some similar situations as you --- biting, pinching, and it helped me a lot to read what everyone has written here. And also feels like if I have a lot of work to do (I work from home) that I want him to leave me alone so I can get it done.

I'll have to try the jacks idea. I think DS would like that.

Thanks everyone.

Greta


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

I have not read all the responses, so... If I repeat, excuse me!

Whenever anyone says this, I always think "What is the alternative?" Like you said spanking, CIO, etc. And... do you REALLY think those kids are better? Some of the most wild, obnoxious and difficult kids have had CIO, spakings, the "limits" you are talking about, etc. The reason is that many of these behaviros are just what kids do. They have tantrums in the grocery store if you spank them or not. They pull the cats tail. They pinch. They go through really frustrating nap stuff. Do you REALLY think all those "mainstream" people don't have the same problems?

As for difficult, continual 2 yr olds... I can SO relate. I would end many days in tears. It does get better. 2 (and 3) is hard.


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## Green_Ma_4 (Jul 28, 2009)

I jsut wanted to mention something, and what I am about to say is in now way saying that you shouldnt correct the behaviour or that you are to blame or anything like thatt, but.....

children sence energy.....people sence energy. It doesnt matter how much sleep your daughter gets, if she is absorbing worn out resentful energy from you,I doubt that that sleep would do her any good.

I think that if you get your feelings of resentment , and create your oen boundries for yourself, you will find that your daughters behaviour will change immensly.

Its a hard thing, this parenting job.....but its also amazingly rewarding

hugs and support
Phoenix


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## GradysMom (Jan 7, 2007)

I could have guessed your daughters age by the title, and I wasn't too far off.

Somewhere, I think in the stickies is a great list of how to do AP/GD and the one that has always stuck with me is FIRMLY INSIST. sometimes it's like a brick wall, just insist... use touch.... I remember a lot of yelling (ds now 36mo).. a lot of frustration that was cured by going backwards to what he needed at 18 mo, a lot of "let me help you make the right decision" while I took the item away or walked him by hand away, or picked him up and removed him.

She, you dd, regressed because dh is away, because your attention is split. I say this having spent 5 weeks homeless alone with ds, living with one relative or friend a week here and there back in March. After two or so miserable weeks feeling like I was failing and he was rotten... I snapped out of it. Bottom line - the only person I HAVE to be is his mother....not a friend, daughter, or neice... those 5 weeks his life was upside down too and he needed me to stay more centered in my role instead of trying to escape my own misery.

After I got that... I started having a nice time with him again.... consider it.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

If it's any comfort, I've been told that the hard times with kids go in 6 month cycles*, so by the time she's 33 months (if not before) she could be totally easy to be with.

*Something to do with developmental leaps.


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## schreiberwriter (Aug 3, 2005)

My DS was difficult at that age. It helped to show him what I was asking him to do or to physically stop him so he understood exactly what I was asking. It increases understanding and reinforces that I'm serious.

No one should have to parent a small child for more than 12 hours at a time. We're meant to have involved partners and a community. Don't blame yourself for not being perfect when so much is being asked of you. You need help.


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## ghostlykisses (Sep 27, 2007)

I did not read the other responses so I am sorry if this is a repeat of something someone else said....

My former neighbor, a wise mother of TEN (some grown adults and some small children) always was big on sleep for small children. She told me all the time when my kids would act up that lack of sleep was the issue.

Sadly lack of sleep leads to more lack of sleep when they become over tired.

My neighbor would probably have suggested that you take a good two or three weeks and plan to just hunker down at home and do nothing but work on your little one's routines and sleep habits. She would tell you how it will be a lot of work and you will get frustrated. She would tell you that when it was naptime be firm and go in and lay with your child and have them stay the desired amount of time no matter how much they fuss. Same goes for bedtime. She would warn you that it was going to be really hard but worth it. She would remind you that you would have to sacrifice time outside the house for awhile because it was super important to stay on schedule with the nap and bedtime.

These are all the things she told me. I thought I would share them with you just for something to think about.


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