# When is "unmet needs" no longer an excuse?



## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I don't know if I'm just being impatient, or maybe feeling a little overwhelmed because my dcs are all in a needy time of life, but I'm starting to think that my dd should exercise more self-control. And I've been wondering if I should encourage it.

For example, my family was all visiting last week, so she was tired and stressed. And she is SO hard to get along with when she's tired. She picks fights with everyone, she calls her brothers and dh and me "bad" and "stupid", she hits, she destroys things, she's basically just a total bear. I try to maintain my boundaries through these episodes, but it gets to be a little much. And, honestly, I get to the point where I'm avoiding confrontation just because she's being so difficult, and embarrassing.

Sooo, while I know she's very tired, she's also four and a half. I feel like it's time to say, "All right, enough already. Tired or not, you are not going to act like this anymore."

Anyone have any other ideas or input?


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

How did this week proceed differently than you thought it would, knowing her limitations about being tired and having heavy concentrations of being "on"? Are there specific areas which surprised you regarding the extra social demands? Did everyone get normal routines/sleep, if routines are something you follow? Were outlets for the physical needs and the 'down time' for each of you anticipated, or exceeded? Are you just wiped out yourself with all of it and being pregnant? Entertaining "my family was all visiting last week" would put me in the funny farm, without prego hormones.







Could you _all_ just need to detox from the un-normal week and start afresh? Perhaps, it isn't being 4.5, but just needing a break? What ways does being tired yourself alter your perspective of what is possible/expectations/needs? In what ways can you honor yourself with some well deserved self-care? I'd be wishing for a massage at the least. Any chance of getting some time for you?

Pat

ETA: Ok, *I* must be tired.







I thought the 1/1/07 was a due date.







: Even more, you with a young baby and night wakening, constant nursing, tandem? and entertaining company. You are amazing!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I don't know if "excuse" is the right word -- I tend to use unmet needs as an explanation, or, better yet, a clue as to what direction we need to go in next.

I don't think unmet needs ever STOPS being the reason that people misbehave. All of us are constantly seeking to meet our needs. Many of us don't know how to do that effectively though -- so we make mistakes.

So, maybe the thing to do is to help your dd identify her needs, and go about coping with life by meeting her needs more constructively? Which is a life-long learning process. But certainly she is old enough to start noticing symptoms of fatigue, figuring out when she needs some space, maybe even asking for quiet space or seeking it out instead of freaking out. Maybe. It is something to work towards.

Yes, though, occasionally I think its okay to say, "_I know you are tired. I know this has been a lot for you to deal with and you are ready for some space. Even though you are tired, you still need to treat people nicely."_ I have said that to my kids. (Now, whether or not it does any good is another question!!)

It sounds like you are experiencing quite a few unmet needs yourself lately. You have your hands full, eh!?


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

Personally, I don't think it is wrong to start talking about resonable expectations. The facts of life are that even when we feel lousy, we can't take it out on everyone all the time and be mean. Sometimes we don't get what we want. Sometimes we have to do things we don't want to do. Though all these things, we have to find a way to manage our feelings. By always arranging every situation to the minutae so that our children are never uncomfortable (have un-met needs) denies them the opportunity to learn about how to exert self control and deal with feelings of being upset. It also denies them our support and loving help in understanding those feelings and finding positive ways of expressing them.

I think the balance is with reasonable expectations and a supportive environment. If you can convey "I undertsand you are tired and I am doing what I can to help you, but I expect you not to say or do mean things even though you are upset" is appropriate. Maybe if you help her find more acceptable ways of her letting you know she is at her limit would be helpful. Or how to subsitute other words/actions for the mean ones.

I don't think there is much that can really change the behavior of a tired 4.5 yr old- they are too young to really be able to over-ride that feeling. But letting her know that we still have to be respectful of others even if we are not at our best can be a topic of conversation...


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
How did this week proceed differently than you thought it would, knowing her limitations about being tired and having heavy concentrations of being "on"? Are there specific areas which surprised you regarding the extra social demands? Did everyone get normal routines/sleep, if routines are something you follow? Were outlets for the physical needs and the 'down time' for each of you anticipated, or exceeded? Are you just wiped out yourself with all of it and being pregnant? Entertaining "my family was all visiting last week" would put me in the funny farm, without prego hormones.







Could you _all_ just need to detox from the un-normal week and start afresh? Perhaps, it isn't being 4.5, but just needing a break? What ways does being tired yourself alter your perspective of what is possible/expectations/needs? In what ways can you honor yourself with some well deserved self-care? I'd be wishing for a massage at the least. Any chance of getting some time for you?

Pat

ETA: Ok, *I* must be tired.







I thought the 1/1/07 was a due date.







: Even more, you with a young baby and night wakening, constant nursing, tandem? and entertaining company. You are amazing!

Yes, thank god I am not pregnant! And yes, it's tiring having three children under the age of five. But it was also very fun for me to have my family here, it was all people I like and none of them stayed at my house, so it was really pretty low-stress. And I understand that lots of socializing de-stresses me, and STRESSES dd, as she is an introvert.

But still. I think she is getting more and more out of control, and I have been assuming that if she was more well-rested she would not be. But lately I've been doubting this, and wondering if I'm doing a disservice to her by not DOING SOMETHING. What exactly I would do, I'm not quite sure of. But here is a typical exchange in our house.

Dd (to her brother): L, may I please have that toy?

Ds1: No.

Dd: Yes, L, give it to me.

Ds1: No!

Dd: Give it to me, L, or I'll hit you!

Me: No hitting! I don't think he's done with it yet, R, you'll have to wait.

Dd: Yes hitting, give it to me! (as she tries to snatch it from him, and/or hits him)

Me: (physically stopping her from snatching) No snatching! You'll have to wait until he's done!

Ds1: Aaarrrghhh!

Dd: Stupid Mommy! (starts crying angrily)

So here's she's terrorized ds1, who does not deserve to live in fear, insulted me, and broke our rule of not snatching toys. Occasionally when she acts like this, I send her to her room to mellow out. Sometimes she hangs out, sucks her pacis, listens to Frances, and comes out a changed person. But sometimes she comes right back out, hits ds1 again, and then says, "I'm hitting L because I'm tired!"

So anyway, I guess my point is that all this time I've been thinking about all her unmet needs. Like, how can I make life more mellow for her? How can we provide more sensory activities? Maybe if she ate three more grams of protein before 7:48 a.m., spent seven more minutes in the tub, and played on the swing for 17 more minutes every other Thursday, she'd start treating us with more respect. But it ain't happening. And I think she's capable of it. I just don't know how to get her to do it.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

mamaduck said:


> I don't know if "excuse" is the right word -- I tend to use unmet needs as an explanation, or, better yet, a clue as to what direction we need to go in next.
> 
> I don't think unmet needs ever STOPS being the reason that people misbehave. All of us are constantly seeking to meet our needs. Many of us don't know how to do that effectively though -- so we make mistakes.
> 
> ...


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## kkeris (Oct 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
I don't know if "excuse" is the right word -- I tend to use unmet needs as an explanation, or, better yet, a clue as to what direction we need to go in next.

I don't think unmet needs ever STOPS being the reason that people misbehave. All of us are constantly seeking to meet our needs. Many of us don't know how to do that effectively though -- so we make mistakes.

So, maybe the thing to do is to help your dd identify her needs, and go about coping with life by meeting her needs more constructively? Which is a life-long learning process. But certainly she is old enough to start noticing symptoms of fatigue, figuring out when she needs some space, maybe even asking for quiet space or seeking it out instead of freaking out. Maybe. It is something to work towards.

Yes, though, occasionally I think its okay to say, "_I know you are tired. I know this has been a lot for you to deal with and you are ready for some space. Even though you are tired, you still need to treat people nicely."_ I have said that to my kids. (Now, whether or not it does any good is another question!!)

It sounds like you are experiencing quite a few unmet needs yourself lately. You have your hands full, eh!?









This is exactly what I think.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

"I'm hitting L because I'm tired!"








That made me spit coffee at my screen!

My honest to goodness response would be, _"Hitting doesn't fix tired, honey. What fixes tired?"_

Its great that she is this self-aware!


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## Unreal (Dec 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
So here's she's terrorized ds1, who does not deserve to live in fear, insulted me, and broke our rule of not snatching toys. Occasionally when she acts like this, I send her to her room to mellow out. Sometimes she hangs out, sucks her pacis, listens to Frances, and comes out a changed person. But sometimes she comes right back out, hits ds1 again, and then says, "I'm hitting L because I'm tired!"

So anyway, I guess my point is that all this time I've been thinking about all her unmet needs. Like, how can I make life more mellow for her? How can we provide more sensory activities? Maybe if she ate three more grams of protein before 7:48 a.m., spent seven more minutes in the tub, and played on the swing for 17 more minutes every other Thursday, she'd start treating us with more respect. But it ain't happening. And I think she's capable of it. I just don't know how to get her to do it.

I think we should put your dd and my ds in a room together and see what happens









That sounds EXACTLY like everyday life here, except ds would never say I'm doing x because of y (Bravo to your dd on that!) and discussion would end with ds covering his ears saying "I'm not listening, I'm not listening, I'm not listening"

It would be hilarious if I weren't about to









We notice foods are the biggest triggers for ds2 (he's also 4.5 btw and brtual with ds1 and constantly pushing ds3 around)
Any white sugar....food colorings....and corn, dairy, and soy...







:

Food hasn't magically cured ds2, but since we cut all of those out, our days are like you described. Before that, it was a nightmare.
I mention it though because it might be part of the deal on the bad days? Just one sweet treat is enough to ruin the entire day for ds









As for gentle discipline, I'm







: so keep 'em coming--please?







:


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

My daughter's younger than yours (not quite 3.5) and I already don't accept that kind of behavior from her. We treat her well and we expect the same (in an age appropriate kind of way). Hitting and name calling means she goes to her room and stays there til she can calm down and be nice. I do it in a nice way - take her back there, sit with her, tell her she can't be mean to people and can come out when she's ready to be nice. This doesn't apply to general tantrums, frustration, etc. Only when she's being aggressive with other people or the pets. Seems like a pretty natural consequence to me: you're mean to people, they don't want to be around you.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

When I act out, it's because of an unmet need....it's not an excuse, but it's the reason.

And I'm waaaaay older than the kids.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 







That made me spit coffee at my screen!

My honest to goodness response would be, _"Hitting doesn't fix tired, honey. What fixes tired?"_

Its great that she is this self-aware!

That's nice of you to say, and a nice perspective. But to be totally honest, I think she's just using it as an excuse because I've said to her before, "This isn't like you, you must be really tired!"


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Unreal* 
I think we should put your dd and my ds in a room together and see what happens









That sounds EXACTLY like everyday life here, except ds would never say I'm doing x because of y (Bravo to your dd on that!) and discussion would end with ds covering his ears saying "I'm not listening, I'm not listening, I'm not listening"

It would be hilarious if I weren't about to









We notice foods are the biggest triggers for ds2 (he's also 4.5 btw and brtual with ds1 and constantly pushing ds3 around)
Any white sugar....food colorings....and corn, dairy, and soy...







:

Food hasn't magically cured ds2, but since we cut all of those out, our days are like you described. Before that, it was a nightmare.
I mention it though because it might be part of the deal on the bad days? Just one sweet treat is enough to ruin the entire day for ds









As for gentle discipline, I'm







: so keep 'em coming--please?







:

I've never been able to correlate food with her behavior, except for a lack thereof. She does get cranky when she's hungry, or if she hasn't had enough protein. But as far as reactions go, I don't think there's a pattern. It's more related to lack of sleep for her.

Thanks for the suggestion, though!


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
My daughter's younger than yours (not quite 3.5) and I already don't accept that kind of behavior from her. We treat her well and we expect the same (in an age appropriate kind of way). Hitting and name calling means she goes to her room and stays there til she can calm down and be nice. I do it in a nice way - take her back there, sit with her, tell her she can't be mean to people and can come out when she's ready to be nice. This doesn't apply to general tantrums, frustration, etc. Only when she's being aggressive with other people or the pets. Seems like a pretty natural consequence to me: you're mean to people, they don't want to be around you.

Well, I've tried this. And, like I said, sometimes she mellows out, but mostly she just returns to more of the same. I guess I am thinking about doing more of a punitive removal, basically time out, if she keeps it up. But the problem is, I can't sit back in her room with her for five or ten minutes while she settles down and leave the crawling baby and two year old unattended. And if she doesn't want to stay back there, there's not much I can do, short of locking her in. And I'm not going to do that.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
When I act out, it's because of an unmet need....it's not an excuse, but it's the reason.

And I'm waaaaay older than the kids.

Well, me too. I lose my temper when I've just had too much time alone with the kids and haven't had a chance to eat, and then I yell at them and even occasionally get so upset that I hit them. I HATE that about myself. I guess that's what bothers me most about her behavior. I'd really love it if she didn't have to struggle with anger like I do.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

First, let me say that after a week of having relatives in the house, I would be running screaming for cover and be quite difficult to deal with. And I'm 41. I love my family. I love dh's family (possibly more - they're not so high maintenance). After 3-4 days, I need my space. I think you do have to factor this in.

Can you create a 'safe area' for her to go to that's not her room? Any room for a small play tent, an area behind the couch with some pillows and some books?

Do you get any cues that she's getting tired before she lashes out? Is there a way for you to step in and redirect her to a quieter, more calming activity before that happens? (Hard I know, with a baby and a 2 year old.) We do the sending our kids to their room when they hit, and while it's punitive in some respects, it's better, IMO, then me ranting and raving at them, which is what I want to do. So, if she comes back out and goes at it again, I'd send her back. But, if you can create a safe space for her nearer to the 'action', but still allowing her to recharge, it might help.

I would:
1. Talk to her when she's NOT tired about what works for her to help keep her cool - do some brainstorming with her, make some suggestions for you to try out together next time. You might include in her some explanations of introversion/extroversion. I think Kids, Parents & Power Struggles has some interesting ideas about how to frame the conversation.

2. Help her learn the difference between 'explanation' and 'excuse' - an explanation helps us understand why so we can do something different. An 'excuse' somehow removes responsibility. Or maybe just tell her that even when she's tired, she's responsible for her behavior.

3. Look at how much one-on-one time she's getting with you or dh lately. Is a little extra connection time possible to carve out?

4. Look for ways to help her get more sleep. If she's overtired, why? Can you rearrange your days so that there's down time when she needs to recharge. (I confess to using TV to do this sometimes.)

Have you read: The Hidden Gifts of the Introverted Child? I gave it a B (not my favorite parenting book), but if you're an extrovert, you might well find it useful. I'm a introvert (who happens to like social events, but I find them draining), with one introvert and one extrovert child. Balancing the needs of all of us is somewhat interesting. I suspect similar dynamics are going on in your house.


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
Well, I've tried this. And, like I said, sometimes she mellows out, but mostly she just returns to more of the same. I guess I am thinking about doing more of a punitive removal, basically time out, if she keeps it up. But the problem is, I can't sit back in her room with her for five or ten minutes while she settles down and leave the crawling baby and two year old unattended. And if she doesn't want to stay back there, there's not much I can do, short of locking her in. And I'm not going to do that.

I don't stay with her the whole time. I just take her back there and explain why she has to be in her room. If she comes out still wild I just take her back there again. Usually she doesn't, she calms down. It doesn't feel punitive to me, really, though it probably does to her. It's more about giving her some space to chill out.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
Can you create a 'safe area' for her to go to that's not her room? Any room for a small play tent, an area behind the couch with some pillows and some books?

Do you get any cues that she's getting tired before she lashes out? Is there a way for you to step in and redirect her to a quieter, more calming activity before that happens?

1. Talk to her when she's NOT tired about what works for her to help keep her cool - do some brainstorming with her, make some suggestions for you to try out together next time. You might include in her some explanations of introversion/extroversion. I think Kids, Parents & Power Struggles has some interesting ideas about how to frame the conversation.

2. Help her learn the difference between 'explanation' and 'excuse' - an explanation helps us understand why so we can do something different. An 'excuse' somehow removes responsibility. Or maybe just tell her that even when she's tired, she's responsible for her behavior

3. Look at how much one-on-one time she's getting with you or dh lately. Is a little extra connection time possible to carve out?

4. Look for ways to help her get more sleep. If she's overtired, why? Can you rearrange your days so that there's down time when she needs to recharge. (I confess to using TV to do this sometimes.) Read Sleepless In America yet? Good book!

I agree with all this. This can be a great opportunity for problem solving with her: "I notice that when you're tired, sometimes you....I wonder if we can find a way for you to take care of yourself when you're tired, so that you can play with your brother *and* be gentle..."

Anyway, what Lynn said and what mamaduck said are basically what I was thinking as I read this thread, which was that an explanation is different from an excuse and that an explanation ("she's tired") is an opportunity to understand how to better handle guide our children ("when she's tired, she's likely to hit even though she knows better. Being tired gets in the way, people don't think or cope as well when they're tired. So how can I help her with this? Maybe she needs more sleep, maybe when I notice signs that she's tired she needs to do something quiet or go somewhere quiet, etc. And maybe I can help her become more aware of this, and help her begin to learn to cope more effectively with being tired"). KWIM? So it's not an excuse, it's understanding in a way that allows me to more effectively guide my children (or when it comes to my own behavior, to more effectively care for myself and change my own behavior).

(eta that at times when you think "tired" is just an excuse, what else could be going on? Could she just need to learn ways of staying calm when frustrated (like when a sibling doesn't want to share), or could she need to learn other ways of resolving conflict (maybe she's not too clear on that), could she be asking for more attention through fighting with her siblings, could she be anxious, etc., etc.? Having been through the wringer with an aggressive child, I think that attemtping to understand and proactively address the reason behind the behavior is so much more effective than addressing the behavior after the fact (and particularly more effective than punishment). With my dd, stress/anxiety is *the* trigger (well, so is lack of sleep, but lack of sleep has it's roots in anxiety) and for ages we just didn't realize she was anxious/stressed--like, she has this chronic background of anxiety/stressed-out feeling. So the key to resolving the problem of aggression with dd is getting her calm and keeping her calm-she knows hitting is wrong and that we don't like to hear her yelling, but her anxiety/stress gets in the way so we have to address that. For another kid, the key might be different.)

I find that when I start thinking "when is unmet needs no longer an excuse?" it's a sign that I have some major unmet needs of my own and that I'm very depleted, not much left to give, and I need to take care of myself/get a break/get support. Thinking this way may also be a sign that I need a new perspective and some new ideas, or that I need to let go of some fear about how I'm doing as a parent and what kind of adult my child will be.


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## NaomiMcC (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexsam* 
Personally, I don't think it is wrong to start talking about resonable expectations. The facts of life are that even when we feel lousy, we can't take it out on everyone all the time and be mean. Sometimes we don't get what we want. Sometimes we have to do things we don't want to do. Though all these things, we have to find a way to manage our feelings. By always arranging every situation to the minutae so that our children are never uncomfortable (have un-met needs) denies them the opportunity to learn about how to exert self control and deal with feelings of being upset. It also denies them our support and loving help in understanding those feelings and finding positive ways of expressing them.

I think the balance is with reasonable expectations and a supportive environment. If you can convey "I undertsand you are tired and I am doing what I can to help you, but I expect you not to say or do mean things even though you are upset" is appropriate. Maybe if you help her find more acceptable ways of her letting you know she is at her limit would be helpful. Or how to subsitute other words/actions for the mean ones..

I agree 100%. Sometimes kids do have to learn to just "suck it up" for a little while. When our son was overtired and we were at someone's house we would find a place for him to lay down by himself for awhile. Usually he fell asleep and that solved that.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Thanks for the great replies. I'm in my late afternoon slump, so I'll try to respond coherently.

Lynn, I agree with what you said. I just read "Kids, Parents, and Power Struggles". I didn't find it as useful as I had hoped, I think because I was already pretty aware of my kids' personality types (my mom is really into Myers/Briggs and the introvert/extrovert dynamic and is always sending me articles or telling me about things she read about it). And we have had conversations about how she might get overtired when people are visiting. And we talk about how being too tired makes life difficult and makes her feel yucky. And I've read "Sleepless in America!" You'd think I'd have it all figured out, huh?







But she is a child that is VERY affected by the amount of light in her day, and she has a really hard time falling asleep when it's still light out. She's had this problem her whole life, blackout shades don't really make a difference, and she's always woken up as soon as it's light. It's nice in the winter, but tough in the summer. It must be her Norwegian heritage, she knows she has to make hay while the sun shines!

Anyway, there are lots of good suggestions here for helping her manage her behavior. But I've already tried most of them. I guess this is why I'm thinking about resorting to punishment. Because we have talked a lot about alternatives to hitting, and yet she still uses it as her first resort. She won't even be particularly mad, she'll just go ahead and hit her brother to get her way. We've talked about not insulting people, about how it can make her feel anxious when her daddy comes home, and how she can run and hide, or not talk to him, or work out a deal where he doesn't talk to her until she's ready, and yet she still says, "Stupid Daddy!" when he comes in hot and tired from working all day. She does the same thing when her brother gets up in the morning. I guess I'm starting to doubt that suggesting appropriate alternatives is enough incentive for her to change her behavior. And I think she's getting in the habit of being rude and bossy, and I want to protect her from the fallout of acting like that with her friends.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
Well, me too. I lose my temper when I've just had too much time alone with the kids and haven't had a chance to eat, and then I yell at them and even occasionally get so upset that I hit them. I HATE that about myself. I guess that's what bothers me most about her behavior. I'd really love it if she didn't have to struggle with anger like I do.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
Anyway, there are lots of good suggestions here for helping her manage her behavior. But I've already tried most of them. I guess this is why I'm thinking about resorting to punishment. Because we have talked a lot about alternatives to hitting, and yet she still uses it as her first resort. She won't even be particularly mad, she'll just go ahead and hit her brother to get her way. We've talked about not insulting people, about how it can make her feel anxious when her daddy comes home, and how she can run and hide, or not talk to him, or work out a deal where he doesn't talk to her until she's ready, and yet she still says, "Stupid Daddy!" when he comes in hot and tired from working all day. She does the same thing when her brother gets up in the morning. I guess I'm starting to doubt that suggesting appropriate alternatives is enough incentive for her to change her behavior. And I think she's getting in the habit of being rude and bossy, and I want to protect her from the fallout of acting like that with her friends.

I am going to lovingly call you on your own modeling. And inquire how could "resorting to punishment" help you to stop hitting when you are upset? We, on GD, have talked exhaustively about not hitting people and how it can make children feel, just like you have talked exhaustively with your daughter about not hitting and how it feels. I believe the path to teaching her not to force her way needs to be by example. If you default to hitting/"punishing", why shouldn't she?

I understand that you want her not to have to struggle with her anger. Continuously, modeling self-calming, listening and alternative tools of conflict resolution when you are upset, will help her to learn them.

Meeting my extroversion needs is critical to my self-care. Just as meeting ds and dh's introversion needs is critical. If you need more help with finding ways to get your self-care/self-calming needs met, that is something which you can focus on and we can help with suggestions. Then you can show your daughter how, when you learn to do it yourself. Getting other people to change because I am upset is not an effective tool of coping with stress, ime. Expecting a child to have the self-control that an adult doesn't have, is setting you both up for more frustration. Punishment doesn't work for the reasons you desire it to. It uses fear to induce compliance. It only works when observed, or under threats of getting caught. And resentment and distancing are counter-effective to her *choosing* a compassionate response.

Finding ways to meet your underlying needs will enable you to have the energy, reserves, and patience to facilitate her to find ways to meet her needs. Consider where you spend your energy. We can only change ourselves.









Respectfully,
Pat


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

At 4 she is old enough for an eye mask to help her sleep. I realize most 4-year-olds wouldn't go for that, but who knows, you could ask.

Also some blackout shades are darker than others-- maybe you need a different kind. And do you use white noise to help her nap? DH can't even sleep at night without a fan.


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

I went and got some cheap black sheets and put them in the windows, b/c my girls will NOT sleep unless it's dark. CHeap and easy. I looked at blackout shades and blinds and WHEW! PRicey. White noise is great too.


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## mountainborn (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
We've talked about not insulting people, about how it can make her feel anxious when her daddy comes home, and how she can run and hide, or not talk to him, or work out a deal where he doesn't talk to her until she's ready, and yet she still says, "Stupid Daddy!" when he comes in hot and tired from working all day. She does the same thing when her brother gets up in the morning. I guess I'm starting to doubt that suggesting appropriate alternatives is enough incentive for her to change her behavior. And I think she's getting in the habit of being rude and bossy, and I want to protect her from the fallout of acting like that with her friends.

I read this part and had to comment because it sounded so familiar. My son had a real problem with running and hiding from his daddy when he got home from work, refusing to go to him, tantruming if daddy tried to talk to him or give him a hug. It was really sad for DH, and confusing because they often have fun together. We thought for a long time that it was just post-nap grumpiness, because his nap ends around the same time. I'm sure that was part of the problem, but we also noticed that it was worst on Mondays and got better toward the end of the week. I had a hunch that he was confused about where daddy went and why, and that the weekends were throwing him off because he had daddy attention then and so much less so on weekdays. So I started talking about his dad all day while he was gone and reminding him of the time when he would be home, what they could do, etc. I made sure to be realistic in creating expectations - DH has a hot and tiring job too so isn't going to come home and have super active play right away. That helped a little. Then we went for a lunch date and met DH at work so that DS could see what he does all day. That combined with letting him wake up slowly from nap has made a huge difference. He hardly ever greets DH that way anymore.

For the times when grumpy wakeups are directed at me I've found that the best cure is to be happy to see DS, and to show it. This is hard, obviously if you're entering a situation where you anticipate conflict it is easier to go in on the defensive. (And end of nap often means end of that time we had to "get things done"...) Fake happiness doesn't work with kids either, it has to be genuine. So all these moms are right on with advice about meeting your needs so you have the inner balance to approach your DD without exhaustion weighing you down. I guess this second bit might not sound too practical; I'm just figuring it out myself.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountainborn* 
I read this part and had to comment because it sounded so familiar. My son had a real problem with running and hiding from his daddy when he got home from work, refusing to go to him, tantruming if daddy tried to talk to him or give him a hug. It was really sad for DH, and confusing because they often have fun together. We thought for a long time that it was just post-nap grumpiness, because his nap ends around the same time. I'm sure that was part of the problem, but we also noticed that it was worst on Mondays and got better toward the end of the week. I had a hunch that he was confused about where daddy went and why, and that the weekends were throwing him off because he had daddy attention then and so much less so on weekdays. So I started talking about his dad all day while he was gone and reminding him of the time when he would be home, what they could do, etc. I made sure to be realistic in creating expectations - DH has a hot and tiring job too so isn't going to come home and have super active play right away. That helped a little. Then we went for a lunch date and met DH at work so that DS could see what he does all day. That combined with letting him wake up slowly from nap has made a huge difference. He hardly ever greets DH that way anymore.

For the times when grumpy wakeups are directed at me I've found that the best cure is to be happy to see DS, and to show it. This is hard, obviously if you're entering a situation where you anticipate conflict it is easier to go in on the defensive. (And end of nap often means end of that time we had to "get things done"...) Fake happiness doesn't work with kids either, it has to be genuine. So all these moms are right on with advice about meeting your needs so you have the inner balance to approach your DD without exhaustion weighing you down. I guess this second bit might not sound too practical; I'm just figuring it out myself.

Thank you, those are good ideas for the daddy coming home transition. And I think that's mostly what it is, is transition difficulty, since she has the same reaction when her brother gets up in the morning or from his nap. Today she did better, and said to me, as little brother woke up, "I wish L wasn't waking up now!" I know it was because we were having fun together, she was in the mommy/dd groove, and she didn't want to share her attention. Anyway, I was pleased with what she said instead of "Stupid L!" like she usually says.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
I am going to lovingly call you on your own modeling. And inquire how could "resorting to punishment" help you to stop hitting when you are upset? We, on GD, have talked exhaustively about not hitting people and how it can make children feel, just like you have talked exhaustively with your daughter about not hitting and how it feels. I believe the path to teaching her not to force her way needs to be by example. If you default to hitting/"punishing", why shouldn't she?

I understand that you want her not to have to struggle with her anger. Continuously, modeling self-calming, listening and alternative tools of conflict resolution when you are upset, will help her to learn them.

Meeting my extroversion needs is critical to my self-care. Just as meeting ds and dh's introversion needs is critical. If you need more help with finding ways to get your self-care/self-calming needs met, that is something which you can focus on and we can help with suggestions. Then you can show your daughter how, when you learn to do it yourself. Getting other people to change because I am upset is not an effective tool of coping with stress, ime. Expecting a child to have the self-control that an adult doesn't have, is setting you both up for more frustration. Punishment doesn't work for the reasons you desire it to. It uses fear to induce compliance. It only works when observed, or under threats of getting caught. And resentment and distancing are counter-effective to her *choosing* a compassionate response.

Finding ways to meet your underlying needs will enable you to have the energy, reserves, and patience to facilitate her to find ways to meet her needs. Consider where you spend your energy. We can only change ourselves.









Respectfully,
Pat

Thank you for your respectful post. I take absolutely no offense at you calling me on my modeling, and I think you're absolutely right. I've been thinking about your post all evening, in fact, and I think that you're actually arguing my point.

Here's the thing. If you have a job at McDonald's, and you need a car, say, you don't go down to the BMW dealership and start test-driving the latest models. So, maybe, if you have three children under the age of five, a carpenter's income for a family of five, and some issues with anger/patience, a discipline system with no punishment may not be the way to go.

I'm not talking at all about spanking or using physical punishment. I know that would never work. But I am thinking maybe I should give up the ideal of no punishment, and use some punitive time-outs or privelege removals for hitting. Like Lynn said, at this point, a punishment might be better than yelling and losing it. And while I would love to be able to meet all of my dd's needs for attention and all of my needs for self-care, it ain't gonna happen! There just aren't enough hours in the day, and not enough of me to go around. So I guess I am thinking I'm going to have to start making some compromises. I'm going to talk to dh about it now!


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## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

I'm in a similar situation. Dd doesn't hit, but she can be really really rude. It's not a "stage" she is going through, she's been like this all her life so I can only assume it is her personality. She is not naturally empathetic to others, so she has less internal motivation to care about other's feelings as much as her own.

This personality type has it's advantages. Since she doesn't care that much about other people, she makes her own choices. She is a natural-born leader, very creative and other kids just follow her. She is going to be a strong, strong woman when she grows up. I could be naive (she's only 7) but I just don't see her as being the type of teen that will follow the crowd and get in trouble.







I love that about her.

But her lack of concern for others' feelings is a problem. I want to teach her empathy. I feel like I've tried everything. Modeling, talking ad nauseum, snapping, punishment and bribing (not in anger, but a framework usually involving points that she gains or loses over a week with a loss of priveleges or rewards at the end of the week, discussed with her beforehand and implemented calmly and lovingly). The punishment does work while we do it, she totally straightens up her behavior. But then when I abandon the plan (I'm not consistent enough to keep up counting points indefinitely) she goes back to being rude.

So I'm really divided over this. I agree with you that punishment (non-physical, and implemented calmly not out of anger) is sometimes necessary for some kids, especially if they are picking on other kids in the family. I support you in doing that. It might give her the motivation to control her behavior and help the family be more peaceful. But it has to be recognized that these methods are only short-term solutions, not long-term solutions.

The long-term solution is to teach empathy, and I don't know how to do that. Is it possible? We talk about others' feelings. She acknowledges that she wouldn't like it if others treated her the way she treats others. It doesn't make a difference.

The one thing I've been doing that I think might be really useful is taking her to a meditation class. I want to teach her to be more self-reflective, to examine her actions. I also want to get her involved in some volunteer work but right now we are in a foreign country and I haven't found a good opportuntiy. But these long-term solutions take time. In the meantime I do occasionally use the punishments as short-term solutions for family harmony.

My belief and my hope is that the two strategies can be used to reinforce each other. Mostly what I read on this board is that they will cancel each other out, that a child who learns through external punishment will never learn to be motivated internally. I'm sure this is true for some kids (in particular really reactive, stubborn children) but probably not true for all. When I look at my own thought processes, I can see that I operate on both levels. Like, I know how important it is for safety reasons to drive the speed limit, but often that is not enough motivation for me when I am in a hurry. The fear of a fine is added motivation to follow the speed limit. It doesn't cancel out my inner motivation, merely reinforces it when I'm inclined to ignore that inner motivation.

Of course the important thing is to never let the short-term solution replace the long-term solution. Like families that just punish but never explain or help their children learn alternative coping skills. But we know you aren't talking about doing that!


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

I haven't read all of the responses, but thought I'd comment on her age. I read the book "When Anger Hurts Your Kids" and it had a page detailing what is most frustrating about kids broken down by ages, for 4 year olds it described them as larger than life, violent if provoked, emotionally volatile. Which frightens me, because I thought 3 was hard, my 3 yr old turns 4 in a month







: Anyways, at least she's developmentally on track


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Sarah, I used the "_you hit, you sit"_ type of time-out for my kids for a bit when they were younger. I thinks its fine to separate a hitter from potential victims for a bit -- probably appropriate. I always gave the choice to rejoing the family to them -- for when they feel ready to stop hitting. I also gave the choice that I would sit with them.

At 4 though, I think you have to combine an approach like that with some problem solving and processing. She needs to practice what she CAN do instead of hitting.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

yk, we've used "you hit, you sit" also-a child who hits takes a break from the others, a break to calm down. When we do this, we say it's time for a break to calm down. I think it's appropriate, I think learning to take a break to calm down is a good thing. I also try to model that by taking a break when I'm angry and feeling an urge to yell, and try to openly talk about how I need a break and can continue whatever it is when I'm calm enough.

Also, I try to separate the kids the moment it seems like things are going downhill and there might be hitting. I'm not always good about it, but it helps when I do this.

And, we have a new game going on here where the kids earn points and level up doing chores (just for fun, we do chores anyway, might as well make a role-playing game out of it-found the link on another thread). So what we've done is add the opportunity to earn points (no real-life reward, just a game) for solving problems peacefully and working together. This has helped with some of the sibling bickering lately, giving them a jump-start-yk, something positive to focus on to change the focus away from the negative.

I think sometimes kids, like adults, get "stuck." They've got the file in their brains for "what to do when my brother doesn't give me what I want," and somehow the first thing in there is "hit him." And maybe there's other stuff in there, but hitting is the default first option and that's what they immediately do when the situation appears. Does this mean they're consciously, deliberately choosing this option and have little empathy? It could, but I don't really think so. I think what they need is some help reprogramming, and for some kids it takes a long time to program a new response. For some kids, it takes some time to find an approach to help and to figure out what they need in order to choose another response.

I very highly recommend reading The Explosive Child, even if your child isn't "easily frustrated and chronically inflexible." I find it helpful with all of my kids, not just my easily frustrated, chronically inflexible child.

Also, I really love the book Raising A Thinking Child which is all about helping kids learn conflict-resolution skills. Geared for young children and preschoolers.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I wanted to post an update, even though it's a pretty depressing one. Dh and I talked about it, and we decided that if she hit (or kicked, pinched, or scratched) she would have to go to her room. We were also going to do this if she called anyone stupid or bad. So then Saturday was a great day, but Sunday she was pretty tired, since she couldn't go to sleep very easily on Saturday night. But she kept it together until Sunday afternoon, when we had to do some shopping. This proved too much for her, and in the car on the way home, her daddy asked her for some Goldfish, and she started calling him "Stupid Daddy!" over and over. So I told her she would have to go in her room when we got home and stay there until dinner if she called him stupid again. Of course, she called him stupid again.

So we get home, I take her in her room and am lecturing her about how I don't want her calling people stupid and bad because her little brothers don't understand that they aren't really stupid and bad, yada, yada, yada, and she says, "Ok, Mommy, may I please have my pacis? And my blankie?" And she was probably asleep before I even left.

And then today, she's been a little bear, yelling at everyone and trying to get ds1 to hit ds2. And now, of course, she isn't sleeping! Aaarrgghh!


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thao* 
I'm in a similar situation. Dd doesn't hit, but she can be really really rude. It's not a "stage" she is going through, she's been like this all her life so I can only assume it is her personality. She is not naturally empathetic to others, so she has less internal motivation to care about other's feelings as much as her own.

This personality type has it's advantages. Since she doesn't care that much about other people, she makes her own choices. She is a natural-born leader, very creative and other kids just follow her. She is going to be a strong, strong woman when she grows up. I could be naive (she's only 7) but I just don't see her as being the type of teen that will follow the crowd and get in trouble.







I love that about her.

But her lack of concern for others' feelings is a problem. I want to teach her empathy. I feel like I've tried everything. Modeling, talking ad nauseum, snapping, punishment and bribing (not in anger, but a framework usually involving points that she gains or loses over a week with a loss of priveleges or rewards at the end of the week, discussed with her beforehand and implemented calmly and lovingly). The punishment does work while we do it, she totally straightens up her behavior. But then when I abandon the plan (I'm not consistent enough to keep up counting points indefinitely) she goes back to being rude.

So I'm really divided over this. I agree with you that punishment (non-physical, and implemented calmly not out of anger) is sometimes necessary for some kids, especially if they are picking on other kids in the family. I support you in doing that. It might give her the motivation to control her behavior and help the family be more peaceful. But it has to be recognized that these methods are only short-term solutions, not long-term solutions.

The long-term solution is to teach empathy, and I don't know how to do that. Is it possible? We talk about others' feelings. She acknowledges that she wouldn't like it if others treated her the way she treats others. It doesn't make a difference.

The one thing I've been doing that I think might be really useful is taking her to a meditation class. I want to teach her to be more self-reflective, to examine her actions. I also want to get her involved in some volunteer work but right now we are in a foreign country and I haven't found a good opportuntiy. But these long-term solutions take time. In the meantime I do occasionally use the punishments as short-term solutions for family harmony.

My belief and my hope is that the two strategies can be used to reinforce each other. Mostly what I read on this board is that they will cancel each other out, that a child who learns through external punishment will never learn to be motivated internally. I'm sure this is true for some kids (in particular really reactive, stubborn children) but probably not true for all. When I look at my own thought processes, I can see that I operate on both levels. Like, I know how important it is for safety reasons to drive the speed limit, but often that is not enough motivation for me when I am in a hurry. The fear of a fine is added motivation to follow the speed limit. It doesn't cancel out my inner motivation, merely reinforces it when I'm inclined to ignore that inner motivation.

Of course the important thing is to never let the short-term solution replace the long-term solution. Like families that just punish but never explain or help their children learn alternative coping skills. But we know you aren't talking about doing that!

Thank you for your post. That was what we had originally thought, was that a punishment would get her out of the habit of going to the dark side. But I'm not sure it's going to work. She is a very persistant child.

Also, she is very empathetic and has a capacity for great kindness toward her brothers and parents. But, at the same time...she can be so hurtful to them!


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Soundhunter* 
I haven't read all of the responses, but thought I'd comment on her age. I read the book "When Anger Hurts Your Kids" and it had a page detailing what is most frustrating about kids broken down by ages, for 4 year olds it described them as larger than life, violent if provoked, emotionally volatile. Which frightens me, because I thought 3 was hard, my 3 yr old turns 4 in a month







: Anyways, at least she's developmentally on track










Well, it's nice to think it's just a phase, and that she'll grow out of it. But to be honest, even though I never thought I'd say this, I'm starting to dread her teen years!


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
But sometimes she comes right back out, hits ds1 again, and then says, "I'm hitting L because I'm tired!"


Little thing, but this jumped out at me because my 7yo has done the same. His teacher told me last year one day, "He told me, after the incident, 'I'm cranky because I need more protein!'" Teacher thought it was funny, and I did - to a point.

Because while DH and I have agreed that sometimes DS acts out for reasons like being overtired or not having eaten enough of the right sort of foods -=- the fact is that not all of his behavior is down to that. Some of it comes down to poor choices, and what his words told me is that *he* is listening to our discussions of his behavior for acceptable reasons to act in an unacceptable way.

She may be tired, yes. But I wouldn't put her "I'm hitting because I'm tired" down to her actually being self aware enough to know this. I think its equally likely that she's trying out the words that she thinks will give her a free pass to continuing to choose her own first choice of action, the one that to her is the easier road for whatever reason, over doing the work of living politely and getting along with her brother or others as equals.

I think unmet needs are only part of it. I think sometimes some behaviors are "the path of least resistance," or "what will be the least work." And kids whose least-work path is physical violence need to learn why it is worth it to choose the other path.

And maybe, for her, that reason will be the loss of friendships you're trying to protect her from?

The other thing i'd wonder is if her pickiing up on the "I need to give a reason" might be a sign that *For her* what you've been doing has included too much talking about it all? My DS (same one mentioned above) does not respond well at all to long discussions of reasons and feelings. It makes him intensely uncomfortable when we go into too much detail about whys and wherefores and "if thens," and we've learned to phrase things carefully and succinctly. Some days we just need to stick to "Its not okay to hit. It is never okay to harm another living being." rather than "Now remember that when Bobby hit you it hurt and you cried and now you've made Timmy feel that way and do you think Timmy feels the same way about you that you felt about Bobby and how does it make you feel that Timmy feels that?" He needs it short, and simple. Later, we can talk about it more, but *in the moment* it is too much for him to handle, and talking too much makes things worse.

I'm not nearly as well-read on discipline tactics as a lot of posters here, but these are a few thoughts just from my own experience.


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## sparklefairy (May 21, 2005)

LOL at the "exuses."

I've been known to respond to, "He MADE me hit him when he XYZ'd" with "No, you hit him because you didn't control your body. It's annoying when people XYZ at you, but it's still not okay to hit. What can we plan for next time you're feeling annoyed?"


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
Little thing, but this jumped out at me because my 7yo has done the same. His teacher told me last year one day, "He told me, after the incident, 'I'm cranky because I need more protein!'" Teacher thought it was funny, and I did - to a point.

Because while DH and I have agreed that sometimes DS acts out for reasons like being overtired or not having eaten enough of the right sort of foods -=- the fact is that not all of his behavior is down to that. Some of it comes down to poor choices, and what his words told me is that *he* is listening to our discussions of his behavior for acceptable reasons to act in an unacceptable way.

She may be tired, yes. But I wouldn't put her "I'm hitting because I'm tired" down to her actually being self aware enough to know this. I think its equally likely that she's trying out the words that she thinks will give her a free pass to continuing to choose her own first choice of action, the one that to her is the easier road for whatever reason, over doing the work of living politely and getting along with her brother or others as equals.

ITA. That was the feeling I had, too. I like your idea for saying that it was because she didn't control her body. I'm going to try that. I know she got the idea of being too tired from me, because I sometimes say, "Oh, you must be tired, because that's not like you to hit!" Though more and more it is getting to be a defining characteristic!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
And maybe, for her, that reason will be the loss of friendships you're trying to protect her from?

Yes, I'm thinking about letting that happen. My SIL actually told me yesterday that my nephew said my dd had told him, "You get way more time-outs than I do!" The way SIL told it, it was in a mean, teasing manner, though if I don't know if this is true, especially since we haven't really used time-out. I also don't know what my nephew's reaction was, or how my dd responded, but I was kind of hoping it was negative so she'd get that she can't treat everyone like that. Lots of times ds1 will stop playing with her when she acts like that, but sometimes he just doesn't want to play even when she's being nice and since his language skills aren't yet advanced to tell her he doesn't want to play with her because she's treating him like sh*t, I'm not sure she gets it. Actually, I should give her more credit, because I have noticed her occasionally changing her tactics and trying to butter him up or let him have a turn being in charge when he starts to get sour on the bossing.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
The other thing i'd wonder is if her pickiing up on the "I need to give a reason" might be a sign that *For her* what you've been doing has included too much talking about it all? My DS (same one mentioned above) does not respond well at all to long discussions of reasons and feelings. It makes him intensely uncomfortable when we go into too much detail about whys and wherefores and "if thens," and we've learned to phrase things carefully and succinctly. Some days we just need to stick to "Its not okay to hit. It is never okay to harm another living being." rather than "Now remember that when Bobby hit you it hurt and you cried and now you've made Timmy feel that way and do you think Timmy feels the same way about you that you felt about Bobby and how does it make you feel that Timmy feels that?" He needs it short, and simple. Later, we can talk about it more, but *in the moment* it is too much for him to handle, and talking too much makes things worse.

I'm not nearly as well-read on discipline tactics as a lot of posters here, but these are a few thoughts just from my own experience.

I see your point about too much talking. Her most common response to "It's not okay to hit," (which I used to try to avoid using) is "Yes, it is." She's usually big on explanations and likes to know the ins and outs of everything, especially for safety rules. So I've really tried droning on and on. But maybe I should just keep it short and sweet and when she contradicts me, I will do my darndest to ignore it!


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

When my kids were that little I put them in bed when they showed me they were tired. We'd have an abreviated bedtime routine with a story and a snuggle. Then lights out.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

We are not into TO over here either, but we use it for hitting. I do think it's a logical consequence. Unfortunately, with my DD, we have to send her to the room and hold or lock the door closed, as she will not stay in TO of her own volition. This is unpleasant for everyone, but it has been effective. She comes out when she's ready to stop hitting. If she hits again, she goes back in. I think this would only work on more extroverted kids, though.

In our case, DD was getting into trouble at daycare for occasional but persistent hitting and spitting, to the point where she was sent home from daycare (!), something we just can't have happening. Not only that, it was getting so bad that I finally lost it once and hit her back. (Something I have NEVER been allowed to forget, incidentally....very interesting.) I am really not pro-punishment, but I do think you may be at a point where you might at least try TO for this one behavior. If it doesn't work, stop it and try something else.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
We are not into TO over here either, but we use it for hitting. I do think it's a logical consequence. Unfortunately, with my DD, we have to send her to the room and hold or lock the door closed, as she will not stay in TO of her own volition. This is unpleasant for everyone, but it has been effective. She comes out when she's ready to stop hitting. If she hits again, she goes back in. I think this would only work on more extroverted kids, though.

OK, loraxc, don't take this the wrong way, because I genuinely want to know and have had this same issue. Because you say, she can come out when she's ready to stop hitting, but then you also say you lock her in. I tell my dd she has to stay in until she's ready to stop hitting, and she follows me out. So I turn around and say, "Okay, if you're coming out, I'm assuming there will be no more hitting." Two minutes later, guess what!?! There she is hitting again. So I guess that's why I think that even my very mild and modified T/O is pretty pointless.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Sarah, I'm really hoping I'm not posting here in your thread to the point of obnoxiousness. I just wanted to share something with you about this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
I tell my dd she has to stay in until she's ready to stop hitting, and she follows me out. So I turn around and say, "Okay, if you're coming out, I'm assuming there will be no more hitting." Two minutes later, guess what!?! There she is hitting again. So I guess that's why I think that even my very mild and modified T/O is pretty pointless.

I tried time outs (punitive, with the idea that it would change behavior) for a very long time, and it was exactly the same as your experience or loraxc's experience (meaning, dd wouldn't stay in her room, sometimes we'd have to hold the door shut, and right away after t/o there'd be more hitting). I struggled with it for ages, then dropped time out altogether until dd got aggressive to the point of being dangerous, then went back to t/o but with a different goal. T/O became only a way to keep people safe, a separation that allowed us all to calm down in a safe place (so dd wasn't hurting people, and frankly so that I wasn't going to do something hurtful). Our version of t/o is telling the child to separate from siblings, and sit to calm down (we use this less often now, and we had to physically move dd to t/o often during a phase nearly a year ago). When we use t/o sometimes we sit with the child, or just stay nearby, there have been times when we've brought dd1 to her room and stood in the doorway to prevent her leaving or held the door shut (again, for safety, she was out of control aggressive-and she will not stay in her room if we walk away, though she's reached a point now where she will sometimes sit in a chair wherever we are). I do think that for us, t/o works very well for keeping people safe but not so much for modifying behavior. T/O as we do it is just part of it, it's the piece that says "we will keep everyone safe, we won't allow you to continue to hit, when we get angry we take a break to calm down, when you calm down then we can talk." And it is a strong message. I think somehow this is different from our earlier attempts at t/o with the goal of the t/o modifying her behavior. And this is what actually helps in our home (if only b/c I'm not frustrated, and the results of t/o now fit my expectations of t/o).

I'm sure that's clear as mud. Just wanted to share b/c it's a subtle distinction in words, but a huge and very helpful difference in our home in practice.


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## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

Take this FWIW, because we're just now going through SID stuff with the baby, but I'm wondering if she could have some sensory stuff going on. The not being able to sleep w/o total blackness, the meltdowns without being able to self-regulate. Benton is sensory-seeking, which translates to craving contact, interaction, but not having a clue about how to self-direct and modulate his behavior. He has an impossible time calming down, because his instincts tell him to keep going, going, going and feeling, sensing, integrating...but then he gets overstimulated because there's no "off" switch, and he becomes impossible to get to sleep, or to soothe.

Let me know if that's of interest to you, and I'll be happy to expound. I also just want to say that I really respect how you have handled such a trying week and time.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

OK, loraxc, don't take this the wrong way, because I genuinely want to know and have had this same issue. Because you say, she can come out when she's ready to stop hitting, but then you also say you lock her in. I tell my dd she has to stay in until she's ready to stop hitting, and she follows me out. So I turn around and say, "Okay, if you're coming out, I'm assuming there will be no more hitting." Two minutes later, guess what!?! There she is hitting again. So I guess that's why I think that even my very mild and modified T/O is pretty pointless.
She has to verbally agree that she will not hit before she can come out. ("Are you ready to stop hitting? If you come out, will you be safe and not use hurting touches?") We also review what will happen if she hits again. ("If you hit again, what will happen?" DD: "I go back to my room.") She seems to take these promises fairly seriously, though I don't know that all kids would. Also, I think having her restate the expectations makes for greater buy-in.

Quote:

T/O became only a way to keep people safe, a separation that allowed us all to calm down in a safe place (so dd wasn't hurting people, and frankly so that I wasn't going to do something hurtful).
This is primarily how I view it too. If it changes behavior, all the better, but actually we instituted every-time time-out for hitting after the time I hit back.







It was totally unpremeditated on my part--I just snapped--and served as a major wake-up call for me that it was risky for me and DD and our relationship for us to continue to be together when she gets like this. Admittedly, most of the time she hits it is not nearly at the level it was that time, but I don't want to risk going there again. It helps, too, to have a calm and boring script for what we do when this happens--just "Okay, DD, time-out till you're ready to stop hurting."

Quote:

Benton is sensory-seeking, which translates to craving contact, interaction, but not having a clue about how to self-direct and modulate his behavior. He has an impossible time calming down, because his instincts tell him to keep going, going, going and feeling, sensing, integrating...but then he gets overstimulated because there's no "off" switch, and he becomes impossible to get to sleep, or to soothe.
This is VERY MUCH like my DD. I actually suspect she is sensory-seeking SID as well. We need to get her evaluated. She actually hits out of wildness, overstimulation, and fatigue more than actual anger and aggression. I see this and I do have some sympathy, but at the same time, she is 3.5, not 18 months, and she does know hitting is wrong. (In fact, she frequently talks about the time I hit her, and tells me repeatedly that I was wrong to hit, that hitting hurts, that I shouldn't have done that, and hitting is never okay. Talk about having your lessons thrown back at you, huh? I of course feel pretty rotten when she does this, but it seems to be necessary to her in some way.)


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
Sarah, I'm really hoping I'm not posting here in your thread to the point of obnoxiousness. .

Not at all! Keep it coming!

I like the idea of her sitting down in another chair and calming down. If she would do it. I think we could get her to try, though. I was leaning more toward the punitive t/o's both for hitting and the name-calling, but maybe I'll just keep up with the "Don't call people stupid" broken record.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
This is VERY MUCH like my DD. I actually suspect she is sensory-seeking SID as well. We need to get her evaluated. She actually hits out of wildness, overstimulation, and fatigue more than actual anger and aggression. I see this and I do have some sympathy, but at the same time, she is 3.5, not 18 months, and she does know hitting is wrong. (In fact, she frequently talks about the time I hit her, and tells me repeatedly that I was wrong to hit, that hitting hurts, that I shouldn't have done that, and hitting is never okay. Talk about having your lessons thrown back at you, huh? I of course feel pretty rotten when she does this, but it seems to be necessary to her in some way.)

You shouldn't feel rotten! You've done a great job of teaching her that hitting is wrong. She knows all that stuff because you taught it to her. And when she gets enough self-control, it sounds like she'll be good to go.

I don't think my dd has particular sensory issues. When she's tired, yes, but not otherwise. I think she just feels grouchy and crappy and acts like a jerk because of it.


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## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
This is VERY MUCH like my DD. I actually suspect she is sensory-seeking SID as well. We need to get her evaluated. She actually hits out of wildness, overstimulation, and fatigue more than actual anger and aggression. I see this and I do have some sympathy, but at the same time, she is 3.5, not 18 months, and she does know hitting is wrong. (In fact, she frequently talks about the time I hit her, and tells me repeatedly that I was wrong to hit, that hitting hurts, that I shouldn't have done that, and hitting is never okay. Talk about having your lessons thrown back at you, huh? I of course feel pretty rotten when she does this, but it seems to be necessary to her in some way.)

I hear you! Henry is an amazing mirror, and too often an unflattering image is reflected.









I also agree that 3.5 has completely different expectations than my 9 month old, but if there are true SID issues there, she may honestly NOT be able to control herself right now. We just had Ben's eval yesterday, and I had a zillion lightbulbs turn on for me. I was extrapolating to H's age, and thinking of how difficult it would be for him to self-regulate if he didn't have intervention. If you suspect SID, I would encourage you to do get an eval done as fast as you can, not just because it will obviously help your daughter, but because it, at least for me, can open a whole new world of ideas and thoughts about what to do and how to help her channel her behavior and why and what she's doing when she hits. If you have insurance, it should cover an eval, at the least, and these are the two most recommended books I've seen:

http://www.amazon.com/Sensational-Ki...7803239&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Sensory-Integr...7803239&sr=8-1


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Sarah, I'm curious...are there predictable triggers for her hitting aside from more general conditions such as being tired? Because I'm thinking of how our approach has become sort of multi-pronged. On the one hand, we take notice of when dd is irritable and sort of troubleshoot that, encouraging rest and relaxation, making dd aware of her irritable mood and getting her to think of things she might do to help herself relax. This is important b/c the more irritable she is, the more likely she is to scream at people, call names, or hit. The more relaxed she is, the better able she is to handle frustration and resolve conflict in a calm, more mature manner. This is something we do outside any situations in which she's hitting, as soon as we notice she's irritable (ideally, before she's started screaming at someone, calling them names, grabbing, or hitting).

But we also, on the other hand, have to address the specific trigger situations. She needs to learn specific skills for handling the trigger situations without the aforementioned unpleasant behaviors, and primarily she needs to learn to stay calm enough to problem-solve. Staying calm is a big problem for her (especially if she's tired/stressed/overstimulated). So we've become very attuned to which situations are trigger situations, and have worked very hard on prevention, stepping in to intervene as soon as the signs point to possible hitting. We intervene for the dual purposes of keeping everyone safe and reminding/encouraging dd to either stay calm or to calm down. Right now our intervention in situations involving sibling conflict (such as "he won't do what I want him to" and "I want that toy and he won't give it to me") is to insist that the kids take a break from each other, and to encourage dd in particular to seek out a relaxing activity. In other situations (thankfully, there's no hitting in other situations, but dd still freaks out easily) we have a basic approach of 1) STOP 2) breathe and relax then 3) talk about the problem (empathy first, then parent's view of the problem, then problem-solving/generating ideas is our current approach to step 3). Examples of dd's non-sibling triggers are the word "no," being told it's time to wake up, any transition. Time-out for us kind of fits either in the context of separating siblings or in between step 1 (STOP) and step 2 (breathe and relax), once hitting (or throwing, [insert other dangerous behavior here]) has happened and there is any sign hitting (etc.) might continue (at this point dd is usually pretty agitated, and needs time/space to let the emotions run their course before she is receptive to prompts to breathe/relax and then ready talk).

(eta In addition to these "in the moment" approaches, we try very hard to be proactive, getting dd involved in solving ongoing problems at calm times, when a problem isn't actually occurring. Which I'm sure you already do. The only thing we haven't successfully been proactive about is the sibling conflict.)

(eta an example of another trigger situation is loud sibling noises. Dd gets very agitated with certain noises, very quickly-sibling noise is a particularly nasty problem, b/c dd's reflex is to try to make them stop by whatever means necessary. We can't expect our other kids to be quiet all the time, and we can't tell them never to sing. So what we did was get dd noise-dampening headphones, which helped enormously. If the trigger is noise, and she puts them on, there's no hitting, b/c the noise isn't uncomfortable anymore.)

I'm quite sure I'll be done posting here, and as usual think of "oh yeah, we do this too" b/c that's how it is with dd. It's just not simple at all. It's more like juggling live grenades. Many of them. (I now feel that I must say that overall dd has much improved, though she still has phases that are difficult. Those phases always pass (though they do seem to last forever while we're in them), and dd always comes out the other end more mature and wonderful.)


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Thank you for the ideas and the inspiration, sledg. I don't want this to sound snarky or snotty, but part of the inspiration was that my dd sounds much easier and since you've been able to deal with all of her triggers, I feel less overwhelmed, since her triggers are mostly her brother not participating in the way she wants, or snatching stuff from her. She rarely hits us, except for when I'm trying to drag her to her room. But I'm going to start doing a sitting nearby t/o, so that will eliminate that issue! I'm going to try out your three steps and see if that helps. She has always liked to blow out a bubble I make with my fingers, it helps her refocus and usually makes her laugh because once she "pops" it I tickle her, so we'll do that, and then focus on the issue. Maybe it'll take the confrontation out of it!


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Oh sure, Sarah! Just rub it in that your kid is easier than mine!









It took me like two full minutes to figure out how it might be possible to in any way interpret that as snarky or snotty.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Well, we'll have to compare notes when they're teenagers!

I tried the sitting and calming down method today, she was trying to hit him because she wanted a turn on the tricycle, which WAS hers, but is now communal. She complained the whole time that she wanted a turn and tried to get me to physically take the trike away from ds1. Then, finally, he got off and she ran over to get on it, and HE came and sat on my lap. Then she freaked out and started yelling, "I want to sit on Mommy's lap!" And sharing it was, of course, not good enough.







:

Oh well, at least she didn't hit him anymore.


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## HoneymoonBaby (Mar 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck*
That made me spit coffee at my screen!

My honest to goodness response would be, "Hitting doesn't fix tired, honey. What fixes tired?"

Its great that she is this self-aware!


Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
That's nice of you to say, and a nice perspective. But to be totally honest, I think she's just using it as an excuse because I've said to her before, "This isn't like you, you must be really tired!"

What does it matter if it's an excuse? Even if she's totally lying, you're calling her on it.

Something I really struggle to apply in my own life is from Becky Bailey's "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline." It's the idea of assigning positive intent. It dovetails nicely with my beliefs as a Catholic and being charitable toward others. When a child says something like the above, even if you KNOW they are full of crap, stop for a second and ask yourself what is the worst thing that could happen if you just took them at their word. Often, the outcome is no different and you just don't want to be "played the fool ..." but you're not really being played, you're just showing your kids you trust them and that their words are taken seriously. I think the "What fixes tired?" comment is great because it takes the statement seriously while basically offering a consequence for continued negative behavior -- in this case, if she keeps hitting "because she's tired," then she'll have to go to bed.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HoneymoonBaby* 
What does it matter if it's an excuse? Even if she's totally lying, you're calling her on it.

Something I really struggle to apply in my own life is from Becky Bailey's "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline." It's the idea of assigning positive intent. It dovetails nicely with my beliefs as a Catholic and being charitable toward others. When a child says something like the above, even if you KNOW they are full of crap, stop for a second and ask yourself what is the worst thing that could happen if you just took them at their word. Often, the outcome is no different and you just don't want to be "played the fool ..." but you're not really being played, you're just showing your kids you trust them and that their words are taken seriously. I think the "What fixes tired?" comment is great because it takes the statement seriously while basically offering a consequence for continued negative behavior -- in this case, if she keeps hitting "because she's tired," then she'll have to go to bed.

Thank you for bringing this up. For a while, after reading Easy to Love, I'd been dealing with lying that way. For example, I'd tell her to go wash her hands, she'd come back and say she had when I knew she hadn't. So I would just say, "Oh, well, they don't look very clean so go do it again." But then I told my sister about that and she commented that maybe she was wanting me to call her on it, to hold her accountable and show her that I expect her to be honest. So I have been saying, in situations like that, "No, I know you did not wash your hands and I expect you to be honest with me. Now go and wash them."

I'm really torn about this. My little sister (not the one giving me parenting advice) has a major problem with honesty, she lies casually all the time. It has, IMO, caused her a lot of problems in her life. I really, really don't want my kids to get into this habit, but I don't know the best way to prevent that. For me, I must admit I'm more comfortable with "calling her on it", since at least I'm being honest, and not pretending that I don't know what really happened.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Hi there,

We don't have children yet, but I'm trying to think about some of these things before we get there.

Quote:

"I'm hitting L because I'm tired!"
Is this something that you have said to her, explaining her behaviour FOR her? That sounds like a parroted justification to me, and I wonder if she really has learned a good lesson from it. I'm not blaming you, I think it would be easy to do with this method of discipline.

I can use my own experience from when I was a child... I'm pretty sure that if that scenario had happened in my house that I or my sister would have been sent to our room to chill out and think about it and be allowed to rejoin the family when we could behave. I never remember feeling isolated or unloved, I knew that I was behaving poorly and actually felt a lot better after a cool-down and rest.

This is just what I remember, like I said, I haven't had to deal with our own children yet.

Trin.

Edited to ADD:

Sorry, I hadn't read the other posts before posting. Ignore my question about the "hitting because I am tired" thing.

And, I'm sorry if these next ones are pointless suggestions that you have already tried:

Have you tried being _really firm_ every single time she is rude? "No. Stop it right now. You may NOT say rude things to your father like that. How would you like it if someone called you stupid? Go sit and be quiet in your room and think about it." And after a while I would go and speak with her and see if she was ready to rejoin civilization (the family!







)

Over and over and over again.

What does she do then??

If I remember being a child correctly....

I would have gotten the message that it was not cool to talk like that because I would have been:

1) irritated about having my time disrupted by having to go to my room every time and

2) eventually felt BAD about calling someone stupid. So, I would have stopped that behaviour.

Trin.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
I'm really torn about this. My little sister (not the one giving me parenting advice) has a major problem with honesty, she lies casually all the time. It has, IMO, caused her a lot of problems in her life. I really, really don't want my kids to get into this habit, but I don't know the best way to prevent that. For me, I must admit I'm more comfortable with "calling her on it", since at least I'm being honest, and not pretending that I don't know what really happened.

Hi Sarah...I've been reading this thread and really enjoying all of the ideas and issues it has brought up.

I agree with you about "calling her on it" to a point...I've had the same concerns with my son who is the same age. What I understand, though, at this age is that it's more of a fantasy...perhaps she wishes she had washed her hands because she doesn't want to take the time out from playing or whatever to actually do it. Sometimes the little white lies are just wishes that things were as they say. Does that make any sense? Also, at this age transitions can be very hard. So leaving one activity to wash your hands might prompt the lie.

I have sometimes said to my son that it is really important for him to tell me the truth because then I can trust what he says. I've also reframed his little lies as wishes, "I bet you wished you did wash your hands already so you didn't have to stop doing xyz". Sometimes he argues that, but a lot of the time if I just say it matter-of-factly and ask him again to go wash his hands he does.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Another thought I had about your situation is something I learned recently from a very dear friend. I've been harping on my oldest to be gentle with the baby. This has me concerned because I don't want to create a resentment that isn't there by seeming to side with the baby.

Anyway, much of the time when we remind the older one to be gentle, he'll seem very irritated saying "I know what you're going to say" in a very annoyed tone. To that, we've felt like 'then why the hell do you keep doing it!!!'...of course, we don't say this but it's the gist of how the interaction goes. My friend suggested that in that moment we say, "really, what was I going to say". Then he might say "be more gentle around him" or "don't fling that hard toy near his head" or whatever. To that, we respond with "that's great!! good for you! I'm so glad you know that...that's so great!"...really laying on the kudos that he knows this stuff. The idea is that instead of it being this negative attention seeking dynamic between my oldest and me, it becomes about his getting really positive attention from me.

I think a lot of the time, it's about love and attention. The oldest can feel squashed out and if they are intense and willful (as my son is and it sounds like your daughter is, too), then they will seek that attention out in ways they know they will get it...usually negatively.

It struck me when you said that she said "I want to sit on mommy's lap!". I would lay on the attention and turn the negatives into positives for her whenever possible.

I hope some of this is coherent...I'm pooped and should go to bed!


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## Ambrose (Apr 20, 2004)

When DD gets like that it's usually because she's tired too. If we're not doing anything too pressing I'll try and lay her down or have DH lay with her. If we're out and about I try to hold my tougne and be patient and talk very very soft with her. It's almost as if loud regular noises bug her more because she's so dang tired. And if nothing else works we'll have her take a break in her room and half the time she falls asleep within a minute because she's sitting on her bed and that pillow is just oh-so-tempting.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty* 
Hi there,

<snip>Is this something that you have said to her, explaining her behaviour FOR her? That sounds like a parroted justification to me, and I wonder if she really has learned a good lesson from it. I'm not blaming you, I think it would be easy to do with this method of discipline<snip>.


YES! this is SO SO SO true! i hear parents ALL of the time do this! (including my self and dh ....and i try to watch myself - and still do it!).

parents say, "*i know you're tire but*........._we still can't hit hit._ _we still need to share._ _we still can't yell, etc."_ .....the list goes on and on and on. there are so many words parents use as precursors to address misbehavior. i think parents do this to try and validate their kids feelings, but i agree with you -- it's ineffective to label our children's emotions and/or make statements that justify behaviors.

very good point you made!


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
YES! this is SO SO SO true! i hear parents ALL of the time do this! (including my self and dh ....and i try to watch myself - and still do it!).

parents say, "*i know you're tire but*........._we still can't hit hit._ _we still need to share._ _we still can't yell, etc."_ .....the list goes on and on and on. there are so many words parents use as precursors to address misbehavior. i think parents do this to try and validate their kids feelings, but i agree with you -- it's ineffective to label our children's emotions and/or make statements that justify behaviors.

very good point you made!









Maybe you left something out, but I've never once felt it was "ineffective to label our children's emotions". And I don't think that saying "I know you're tired but we still can't hit" IS justifying the behavior. I view it more as an empathic response, as a way to say, "I know you're a good kid, you just are tired and so you forgot the rules. And I'm here to remind you."

Anyway, I like your idea, Swampangel, of trying to make it positive. My dd would never repeat back to me something like that, I assume because she's older. She'd make something up or have some other random response, but I can think of other ways to make it positive.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
Maybe you left something out, but I've never once felt it was "ineffective to label our children's emotions". And I don't think that saying "I know you're tired but we still can't hit" IS justifying the behavior. I view it more as an empathic response, as a way to say, "I know you're a good kid, you just are tired and so you forgot the rules. And I'm here to remind you."

Anyway, I like your idea, Swampangel, of trying to make it positive. My dd would never repeat back to me something like that, I assume because she's older. She'd make something up or have some other random response, but I can think of other ways to make it positive.

what i was referring to is parents (and i've been guilty of this before too i'm sure) who have their child acting in an inappropriate way, and they say ..."i know you're tired but... "fill in the blank". i don't think those word should be the precursor to addressing misbehavior. i'm not really concerned with whether or not we agree on that. i've worked 11 hours today and i'm so beat - so i'm too tired to type a lengthy response.

i think if you are truly addressing your child's needs and helping them identify their feelings - then that's great and i fully agree with you.







too many times it comes across sounding like a big excuse from the parent. especially when parents say things like "i know tommy isn't sharing with you - but you still shouldn't bite him". it's better to address that biting is inappropiate - period. then after that .....discuss what emotions your child was feeling and how they could have handled those emotions etc. same thing goes for, "i know you're tired, but we shouldn't hit."
__________________________________________________ ___

sarah - i just wanted to come back and add that i just saw this is your thread, so please don't think my chiming in was a direct statement to you at all. honestly i was just skimming through here and the post i responded to stuck out. i thought it was a great point so i was simply agreeing. but my first post was not directed to you and my response now is also generic and a very generalized statement from my personal observations--not at all toward you or this thread. i just wanted to make that clear, as i know sometimes on this msg board it seems comments may feel really personal or attacking - and mine truly arent meant in that manner.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Coming late back to the discussion:

Time outs in our house have become more what someone else (loraxc?) described -- cooling off with us sitting next to the door. But there is something about that physical separation that helps ds calm down. Dd will actually go up to her own room to cool off sometimes (when she's not throwing herself on the floor!), but ds needs the separation and can't bring himself to do it.

Second, I hear that you're concerned about your kids' relationship -- but it's hard for you to regulate that. If he doesn't want to play with her because she's mean to him, that is a better lesson than anything you can teach. Siblings are, for better or worse, where a lot of kids work out just how far you can go.

And this does get better with time. I'm quite enjoying 6. Ds has gained considerably in self-regulation skills and is becoming much more flexible in many, many things than he ever was at 4 or 5. He didn't ever hit much, I'll confess. But he's negotiating more, and more able to roll with the punches. It's our 3 year old who can't transition worth a darn.

Oh, and I've found the most effective thing for our ds is to talk about how I recognize MY own triggers. It helps that ds' triggers are basically the same as mine: hunger and tiredness. Hunger is actually a worse trigger for us both. I need to make sure that we both get enough protein with all our meals and snacks.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
This is VERY MUCH like my DD. I actually suspect she is sensory-seeking SID as well. We need to get her evaluated. She actually hits out of wildness, overstimulation, and fatigue more than actual anger and aggression. I see this and I do have some sympathy, but at the same time, she is 3.5, not 18 months, and she does know hitting is wrong. (In fact, she frequently talks about the time I hit her, and tells me repeatedly that I was wrong to hit, that hitting hurts, that I shouldn't have done that, and hitting is never okay. Talk about having your lessons thrown back at you, huh? I of course feel pretty rotten when she does this, but it seems to be necessary to her in some way.)

Do have her evaluated - our son has mild SPD too and OT has made a huge difference in his ability to self-regulate.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
what i was referring to is parents (and i've been guilty of this before too i'm sure) who have their child acting in an inappropriate way, and they say ..."i know you're tired but... "fill in the blank". i don't think those word should be the precursor to addressing misbehavior. i'm not really concerned with whether or not we agree on that. i've worked 11 hours today and i'm so beat - so i'm too tired to type a lengthy response.

i think if you are truly addressing your child's needs and helping them identify their feelings - then that's great and i fully agree with you.







too many times it comes across sounding like a big excuse from the parent. especially when parents say things like "i know tommy isn't sharing with you - but you still shouldn't bite him". it's better to address that biting is inappropiate - period. then after that .....discuss what emotions your child was feeling and how they could have handled those emotions etc. same thing goes for, "i know you're tired, but we shouldn't hit."
__________________________________________________ ___

sarah - i just wanted to come back and add that i just saw this is your thread, so please don't think my chiming in was a direct statement to you at all. honestly i was just skimming through here and the post i responded to stuck out. i thought it was a great point so i was simply agreeing. but my first post was not directed to you and my response now is also generic and a very generalized statement from my personal observations--not at all toward you or this thread. i just wanted to make that clear, as i know sometimes on this msg board it seems comments may feel really personal or attacking - and mine truly arent meant in that manner.


Yes, I think I see what you mean. Maybe I have unintentionally made it more of an excuse. I usually try to be very clear when I address physical violence, like just two very clear and forceful words, like, "No hitting!" or "No biting!" or "Don't bite!" etc. But she's a very verbal child, and also very much a thinker, and she may have extrapolated that I was more accepting of her violent behavior, or at least that I'd be less disapproving, if she had the excuse of being tired.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
Second, I hear that you're concerned about your kids' relationship -- but it's hard for you to regulate that. If he doesn't want to play with her because she's mean to him, that is a better lesson than anything you can teach. Siblings are, for better or worse, where a lot of kids work out just how far you can go.

Honestly, it's not so much that I care if they have a good relationship, it's just that I'm worried about him absorbing her insults. I have to admit, this is because this is what happened in my family of origin. The things my older siblings said to me were excruciatingly painful, and I know that the things we said to my younger sister had the same effect. So I don't care if my dd and ds1 have fun together as much as I don't want her telling him he's stupid. In fact, if they played less and if he liked her less, I probably would be glad, because then I would be less worried about how he feels when she tells him that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
And this does get better with time. I'm quite enjoying 6. Ds has gained considerably in self-regulation skills and is becoming much more flexible in many, many things than he ever was at 4 or 5. He didn't ever hit much, I'll confess. But he's negotiating more, and more able to roll with the punches. It's our 3 year old who can't transition worth a darn.

This is good to hear! I'll be looking forward to age six.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
Honestly, it's not so much that I care if they have a good relationship, it's just that I'm worried about him absorbing her insults. I have to admit, this is because this is what happened in my family of origin. The things my older siblings said to me were excruciatingly painful, and I know that the things we said to my younger sister had the same effect. So I don't care if my dd and ds1 have fun together as much as I don't want her telling him he's stupid. In fact, if they played less and if he liked her less, I probably would be glad, because then I would be less worried about how he feels when she tells him that.

I think that you can put this worry aside until they're both a bit older.

Remember, she's at an age where she's learning the power of words -- so her saying "you're stupid!" is a step forward in her aggression -- she's not hitting. But like a toddler who doesn't quite get how hitting hurts, she doesn't quite understand the effect that words have on people.

Pointing out that it's hurtful, and that it makes people feel bad, just like you do with hitting, helping her understand her need to be alone, and working on transitions (which seem to be an issue) will probably go a long way!


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