# DH shoved DS!! Desperately need help!



## mamalita (Jun 5, 2003)

I don't even know if this is the correct forum for this I'm so upset and devasted right now. And I don't even know what I'm looking for here - advice, support, a shoulder I guess. Tonight, my so-called DH actually SHOVED my DS (aged four this past June) - hard enough to knock him down. I saw it and I cannot believe it happened.

The background: DS gets very irritable around 7pm nearly every night. He's hungry, he's tired, etc. He ususally gets pretty challenging - throwing things, even getting so angry he will pinch, grab, throw, etc. It was one of those usual nights tonight and while finishing up making dinner, I was basically playing referee (sp?) between DS and DH. DS kept coming after DH in anger (because his playdough wasn't working out) and he was grabbing him, etc. Well, this kept happening, and I kept saying "please be gentle with Dad, it's not okay to hurt people even if we're angry". And then to DH I was saying things like "please be compassionate with DS, he's hungry and frustrated. Please walk away if you're being grabbed/hurt". Well, this goes on between the 2 for a while - a little worse tonight than usual. When, DS grabs DH (again) DH grabs his little arms and pushes him to the ground away from him and walks away







. I couldn't believe what I saw.

We have a VERY strict no violence policy (or SO I thought) in our home. I picked up DS and followed DH and yelled (through the bathroom door) "How DARE you push him!" And then, "So help me God, if you ever do that again, I'll be a single mom! NOBODY pushes my child!!" DH exited the bathroom and kind of (not hard) then pushes ME away from him. I then took DS into our porch, put on his and my shoes and we left. I took him to the next town over to get him something to eat all the while explaining that it was absolutely NOT okay for Dad to push him, it was unacceptable and also that he (DS) was safe and that I would not let someone hurt him.

We got home a few hours later and I told DS that we would have some fruit and go to bed, but that if things were very uncomfortable/chaotic, we would stay in a hotel (DH has a way of escalating things). Well, we come in and here's DH sitting on the couch, playing his guitar, acting like it was all fine and dandy. He was unapologetic to DS and myself, AND he tried to act like _I_ somehow did something wrong. He was doing lowbrow stuff like giving me the finger, telling me I was "bipolar" and even threatening me with a custody situation where HE would get DS as I was "crazy". WTF??? He also tried to just hang out with DS like nothing happened. Poor DS - it must have been so confusing.

DS and I cuddled and he went to sleep (we co-sleep) and now I'm up here on the computer not knowing what to do. I don't even so much as want to LOOK at my husband. What do I do now? DH can be moody and unstable (he's more mainstream as far as parenting and it creates lots of challenges between us) but THIS is unacceptable. Do DS and I go stay with relatives for a few days? Do we stay and I wait for DH to apologize and own up to his behavior? What about the risk to DS?? I would NEVER trust DH alone with him again now knowing what he's capable of (and wondering if it's ever happened before when I wasn't around).

I'm sorry if this post was long, rambly and/or incoherent. I'm just so upset and stressed right now. I don't have any close pals nearby and this was the first place I thought to turn. TIA for any words of wisdom.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Not only was DH abusive to DS, he is also being abusive to you. I think you need to get some space, and fast. Staying with relatives sounds like a good idea to me. The way DH is treating you right now is also damaging to DS.

I'm so sorry you are having to deal with this.


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## deleria (Mar 8, 2004)

At first I was going to say, as unacceptable as it is, that DH sounds extremely stressed out and crossed the line. In which case, a HUGE apology to you and DS and a promise to get some help for dealing with his anger might, _might_ be acceptable for now. Everyone calms down, he works on his issues, you and DS learn to trust him again and this incident becomes a bitter memory.

However, since you described a history of unstable behaviour, I would be worried about things escalating rather than getting better. People can't change what they refuse to see. If he doesn't think he's doing anything wrong, then he can't change it. And that's scary, you know? The way he dealt with you tonight set off huge alarm bells for me. I grew up in a family with a father who was prone to occasional acts of violence. Everything from shoving/spanking when I was younger to outright beatings when I was a teenager. It wasn't consistent, but the threat was always there. In some ways, it was worse waiting for the time bomb to go off than when it actually happened.

I'm speaking from a biased point of view, but I wouldn't let this go. It needs to be fixed somehow. He has to know that this is very serious - not just the shoving, but his way of dealing with it - and that you will NOT let it happen again. If that means getting out and staying with relatives, do it. If that means asking him to leave, do it. If that means getting some help for you and your son, do that. But whatever it is, please, PLEASE, don't let things return to 'normal' again. They won't improve on their own.

You sound like an amazing mama who is very protective of her child. I know I'm probably just echoing some of the things going through your mind right now. It's a scary, awful situation he has put you both in. You have all my support and I'm sure will get so much more from the other mamas here. Sending love and hugs


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

What your DH did was unacceptable, he's an adult he should be able to control his actions.

Now, onto your DS's behaviour. Have you thought of starting supper a little earlyer? 7 REALLY seems too late for the little guy. How about bumping it up to 5 or 6? That might help your DS feel a little better in the evenings.

Note: I am In NO WAY Condoning your DH's behavior NOR am I Trying to make your DS get any blame for it.

You said that your DS gets grumpy and irritable at 7 due to hunger, I dont think anyone likes being hungry. Doing supper earlyer would be the better bet to make him less grouchy in the evenings.


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## mamalita (Jun 5, 2003)

Thanks for the resonses everyone. I'm still so stressed that I'm now feeling kind of sleepy. Plus, over the monitor I heard DH going into our bedroom and I feel like I need to be there to "protect" DS (I know, this sounds kind of wacky) so I'll be heading there soon (we cosleep).

Oh, I WISH we could have an earlier dinner. DH doesn't get home from work 'til 6:30pm. And although I usually 1. offer DS a snack around 5:30/5:45pm (he often refuses) and 2. try to start dinner so that it's ready when DH is home - DS wants me to continue playing with him AND isn't interested in joining me in the cooking/prep process. Lastly, I think it's kind of a "habit" for DS; a way for him to handle the transition in the day (he's pretty "high needs" by nature).

I'm really thinking of going to stay with a family member, but that also means INVOLVING a family member, kwim? Deleria - my dad was also abusive (hitting with belt or hand,etc.), and I vowed NEVER would I allow that in my home. Problem is, DH SEEMS like such a mellow guy on the surface, that was originally one of the reasons I was drawn to him. He also has little tolerance for child-like behavior.

There's this weird thing going on in me where I feel like by taking action (putting distance between DH and me and DS) that I feel like I'm making matters worse and creating chaos/drama for DS. I feel that awful temptation to just stay put and act mellow and let things "smooth out" so everyone's comfortable (like somehow I really AM "crazy" as DH said and making a big deal out of this). I know in my heart though that this comes from MY upbringing (the "normalizing" of abuse in my family of origin) and I have to push myself to do the right thing for DS. Oh, this is just so awful.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

You don't deserve to be treated that way, neither does your son. You shouldn't have to "parent" your spouse, either, or mediate between an adult man and a four year old. Staying with relatives sounds like a fantastic idea, please do it! Please don't just stay and tolerate this abuse; your son is watching and learning.


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## arlecchina (Jul 25, 2006)

oh no







I am so sorry









I know it isnt easy but his behaviour when you got home speaks loads. I am so sorry. If he'd apologised or felt bad it would be one thing, not good but could be worked around but I think you might not be good to stay


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## amwww (Dec 13, 2004)

i have to ask, where did your 4yo learn to pinch and such in the first place? if your house has a strict no violence policy, why doesn't it apply to your son, regardless of how tired or hungry? i'm not saying anything about your husband's over the line behavior, just asking?


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Oh my, Mamalita, what a horrible situation.










So much of what you have written resonated with me. I know the feeling of guilt that *you* are stirring up trouble by making a change. It's so classic. And so untrue. In this dynamic there usually seems to be an abuser and an appeaser you know? You're so tempted to play the role of 'appeaser' because you are a peaceful person and you just want a healthy, happy family. That's normal and healthy. I'm a single mom who left an abusive man. I was told countless times that I was overly sensitive, overly controlling (!), powertripping, etc. just because I wanted to have no violence in our home, and a husband who wasn't sleeping around on me. You know what? I actually beleived that for a long time.

Whatever his reasons for acting in such a way, your husband needs some time and space to figure it out. He may well do that! But it's going to be a real process for him and in the meantime you need to heal yourself and protect you little one. A cooling-off period at a relative's house is a great idea. Your son need not be exposed to any confrontation or much confusion, really. Let him be a kid. He'll be fine.

You sound like a very intelligent and clearheaded woman. I trust in your ability to protect yourself and your son. You deserve a peaceful home and a partner you can trust. Your child deserves a home where he will never, ever be hit or pushed by an adult. You can give him that.


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## mamalita (Jun 5, 2003)

Amwww - DS has been a pincher/grabber for nearly all of his 4 years - sometimes as a comfort (when nursing or 1/2 asleep), in excitement (particularly when younger), sometimes in anger (as in lately). We have never condoned this behavior, but being against "time outs" and "logical consequences" I've always been at a loss as to what to do aside from an immediate reminder that there are other ways to handle our anger (jump up and down, give a loud growl, etc.) instead of hurting someone. And of course - the biggest - prevention. I know what will get DS frustrated, so I try my best to prevent any known triggers that will set him off.

He's never been to preschool/daycare, etc. Always with me or DH (not even had a relative as a sitter). I've been on the GD boards many times wondering where this behavior came from and it saddens me when people assume grabbing/hitting/pinching are things that my child "learned" and that somewhere along the line I, his mama, wasn't paying attention.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamalita*
I've been on the GD boards many times wondering where this behavior came from and it saddens me when people assume grabbing/hitting/pinching are things that my child "learned" and that somewhere along the line I, his mama, wasn't paying attention.

well those behaviours are totally age appropriate. Be careful not to project the stuff with your husband onto your son. Move forward, one small step at a time.


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## Emilie (Dec 23, 2003)

Hugs mama... I referree alot with ds and dh.

if you do decide to go stay with friends
You do not need to tell ds that you are "leaving your dh" or even make a big deal about it. I would think- hey- we are having summer fever- how about we go visit Aunt XYZ- call Aunt XYZ- hey we are going nuts here- can we come stay for a few days and see you....

I am not so upset about your dh pushing your ds as to his attitude surrounding the whole incident. My dh uses the "crazy" thing on me to- because I am medicated.....I am sorry to hear that....
NOw granted this JUST happened. He may regret this in the a.m. I have red flags that dh is holding alot of anger in???( as dh's tend to do) My dh does and then I look at him wrong and he throws a book- ya know- the soda bottle explosion type of anger,

I would talk to dh in the am and see how he is feeling about the incident. "

"Hey- that really sucked last night- what is going on with you?" See how he responds?

Maybe dh needs a break- does he have a buddy he can go catch some fish with for the weekend or something?

hugs mama- i will be thinking of you guys.....


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amwww*
i have to ask, where did your 4yo learn to pinch and such in the first place? if your house has a strict no violence policy, why doesn't it apply to your son, regardless of how tired or hungry? i'm not saying anything about your husband's over the line behavior, just asking?

He's four years old, it's not weird for a four year old to do that.

We have a family policy of not biting each other. Guess which member of our family finds that policy hard to stick to? I'll give you a hint. it's not anyone born in the 1960s. We didn't have to MODEL biting or TEACH biting. Chidlren are independent beings, not extensions of their parents.

This isn't the first time that this has come up here.

There may be more effective ways to deal with the behavior, though.

Your husband's behavior is unacceptable. Not the shoving--i can forgive that, actually, if he lost his temper. i don't like the gaslighting "you're crazy if you think my behavior is a problem" business. There is nothing crazy about not liking violence. Set out your expectations about it (non-violent parenting) and then offer support. Tell him he can leave the room if ds is bothering him. Tell him you'll give him a snack when he gets in the door so that HIS blood sugar is okay. But also tell him that if he won't commit to changing his behavior, you need him to sleep in another room.

Because you shouldn't be freaked out.


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## Kaitnbugsmom (Dec 4, 2003)

You know Im' going to say it but here it is..

you need to get a protective order and go to a shelter ASAP.. If it weren't for the abuse I'd say do not leave your house, have him removed. But he *is* being abusive toward you and your dc, so that goes out the window and I have to say get thee to a shelter. Your dc is worth more than any latent or lingering love you have for the sperm donor {a person who would do as described is neither a husband or father}


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## amwww (Dec 13, 2004)

i hope i didn't offend you mamalita, my dd is only 1.5, and i've very little experience with kids under 10, i didnt realize they do it on their own...sorry.


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## mamalita (Jun 5, 2003)

Thanks so much for the support mamas! I forgot to add one of my big concerns about staying at a relatives: everyone lives at least an hour's drive away and ever since DS and I got in an accident at the end of March (we were rear-ended) I'm kind-of afraid to drive. Please don't flame me for this. I mean, I'll just have to get over it for the sake of DS. And, it's not a total phobia, I will drive to the market, the library, all over our town and the surrounding areas. I mean more like highway driving (that's where we were hit) - and I need to get on one of three major highways to get to anyone's house.

Also - and this is what I meant about involving anyone - because of my family's history (getting hit by our dad), I feel like everyone in my family will accuse me of making a "big deal" out of this. They'll tell me that DH is "such a 'good' guy" and that I should just "make up" (as if this was a lover's quarrel)







. I'm right, right?? This was a TOTAL big deal, right?? This was as awful as it seemed, right??

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm not exactly this quiet-speaking, mellow-mama. I'm kind of "spicy" and will often mouth-off (quite loudly) about things I feel passionately about: pesticide use, herbicide use (right next door to us







: ), pollutants, suburban super-sprawl (esp. here in NJ). And DH and I argue in front of DS on occasion (I'm not proud of this) - so I'm no angel. I just say this to explain that DS' home life is not super-peaceful/mellow/quiet. BUT, it's defintely not abusive (verbally, physically) until tonight's incident. And this is something I will not stand for.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

There are plenty of men who would never, ever, under any circumstance whatsoever shove, or in any way lay hands on, a four year old baby. That is absolutely unacceptable in every way. You are NOT overreacting in your emotional response to this. What if some stranger on the street did it? Is that any different? If so, how? The fact that his sperm helped make your son does not give him ownership of your son's bodily integrity. What he did was an utter violation.
People who are abusive are not necessarily evil or unloveable. Many a great person has found themselves in situations where they lost some control and acted in an abusive way towards someone else. The important distinction here is that a healthy person who has acted in such a way will be completely accountable for his or her actions and IMMEDIATELY seek help. He should have left and gone to seek help right away. He did not so you need to.

Your instincts are speaking loudly to you but your habits and desires are arguing with them. You don't even feel comfortable leaving him alone in the room with your son! In a healthy situation, a mother would welcome the quiet/alone time and think fondly of her boys all cuddled up and safe.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

Get out now. Do not pass go.
I don't know what the legal situation is in the states, but over here it is possible to get yourself into safety, THEN seek an occupation order which will give you and your ds the right to live safely in your own home without your dh.
I stayed after my ex got "a little too rough" with my eldest, and I've paid heavily since. Don't think twice. Just trust your instincts, and go. This journey will be the most emotionally challenging one of your lifetime, but you can do it.
The US mamas will have an opinion on this one: is it worth putting a phone call in to the police once you're safely out of town?


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## mamalita (Jun 5, 2003)

I can't thank you all enough for the support you've shown me.

It's the morning now, and I am getting angry. Why? Because when I woke up, I thought perhaps DH - given some time to think - would feel at least some remorse for his actions. Instead, he moved a note that I had posted on our kitchen counter (months ago) as a reminder for the home to be peaceful. I'm not sure if I'm conveying this properly, but basically he was trying to (again) blame _me_ in some way. For him to act as if this was a lover's quarrel or something makes me want to vomit. How does him pushing his own child have anything to do with being angry at me? Because I defended DS?? But now, I'm also needing to face reality.

How could a full-grown seemingly intelligent man not own up to his actions??

I feel like 12 years of my life is down the drain (I know, this sounds a bit melodramatic). Also, I don't think I could ever truly trust him again.


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## elsasmommy (Mar 24, 2005)

r


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## sesa70 (May 12, 2006)

I know this is rather simplistic here, but have you tried sitting down and seriously talking to your dh? He obviously doesnt get how big a deal this was. Perhaps you could have someone look after your ds (Iknow easier said than done) for just an hour this evening, and you and your dh can sit down and have some serious comunication. You can make it very clear to him how unaceptable this was to you, and that this is a deal breaker for you.

I find that some uninterupted good communication when each of us knows the other means buisness is really good for getting to the bottom of things. It will at least help you understand if this is just the beginning of a downward spiral or if he was simply acting as an aggrivated and frustrated father. Perhaps as a pp mentioned, together you can work on how to help your ds get into a better routine and hopefully things can start to repair themselves.


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## mamalita (Jun 5, 2003)

Well, I didn't mean to convey that DS pinching DH every night. Sometimes, he just gets irritable/easily frustrated around that hourand DH has chosen not developed the skills to deal with it.

Regarding dinner, again, DH doesn't even get home 'til 6:30pm and since we all agreed to have a family dinner, feeding DS earlier than the rest of us isn't really an option right now. DS isn't always super-hungry/tired, etc., he's on a "later" schedule than most children (up around 8:30am, asleep around 9 pm - by his personal preference/rhythm).

Oh, not to be sarcastic, but "poor DH". He just had a great night out this past Friday with his friends for hours. They went to a movie, then went out for beverages, and he didn't get home 'til late. I often encourage him to get alone time. Instead of sharing chores, I do mostly everything (except for mowing the lawn, which I'd do, but DH enjoys it). His ability to handle stressors is quite low - again, by his choice. (I'm sorry but I'm feeling a bit defensive here).

Thanks again for the support folks.


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

I don't have any real advice, I agree with what many of the posters have said about how serious of a problem this is. Something you wrote, Mamalita, really jumped out at me:

*Mamalita* wrote:

Quote:

Instead, he moved a note that I had posted on our kitchen counter (months ago) as a reminder for the home to be peaceful.
A note on a counter (for months!) as a reminder for the home to be peaceful does not sound 'normal' to me. Not criticizing you at all, but just wondering how frequently your dh loses his temper at home that necessitates a long-term note on the counter?







: (I am presuming that your ds cannot read so the note is not for him.) It all sounds like a depressing situation for you and your ds to have to live with everyday.

Maybe there are some anger management classes or counseling that your dh could consider?


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elsasmommy*
I think your husband is acting immature, but I would be very unhappy if I made a parenting mistake like this out of tiredness and frustration and my husband yelled at me and pitted me against my son. I'm sure my opinion will be unpopular to some here, but you will not have a good family life if your son's bedtime routine doesn't become more calm and if you expect your husband to put up with being physically assaulted every night by your son. And if you make your husband out to be the enemy and do not work together with him to solve the problems. Yelling at him is not the answer. You and your husband need to talk calmly and rationally about how you will handle your son's aggression and your husband's frustration. You may not mind being pinched and having things thrown, but it would make me very very stressed and unhappy at the end of a long day.


I agree

as i read the original post I kept thinking "no wonder her husband snapped" there really does come a breaking point.

if your child is hungry and tired every night at 7 feed him at 5 and put him to bed at 7 for goodness sakes. why set up an adversarial relation between him and his father and why let your son ber misreable like that when you know how to fix it.

and it was wrong for you to intentinally turn him against his father like that and threaten to kick daddy out in front of him. I would say your response may well have been just as abusive as shove.

soprry to be so harsh but it feel like you are setting your husband and sonm up to fail. Instead of being all pissy about your husbands understandable but inappropriate reaction howe about acknowledge that sopmething needs to be done to work on ds' behavioor and fidgure out what that is. it is normal for children to act out while hungry and tired. it is not normal for them to be allowed to continue being tired and hungry and crabby and abusive while thier parents just sit around and take it.

if you want to be peaceful you need to work at it. a note isn't going to cut it. you have seen a pattern that waiting until 7 to east supper does not make for a peacful home. why not re-evaluate the nessecity of it. are you listening to your dh when he talks? or are you telling him how to parent? what does a peacful home look like to you? what does it look like to your husband? (because there is nothing peacful about the situation leading up to incident you described.)


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

I too think it was wrong for you to threaten to leave your husband in front of your son, whisk him off to another town (when he was already cranky and tired?) and then tell him "you might stay in a hotel that night." If the situation is life or death, LEAVE and don't come back. Otherwise, don't leave, come back, threaten to leave again, all in earshot of your son.

Your husband was just as wrong to call you crazy and threaten you with a custody battle.

If you do get into a custody battle and it comes up that he shoved your son to the ground, and that you remained in the house with your husband, it could well reflect badly on you.

You need to make a decision one way or the other, but don't go back and forth like this. If your husband was burnt out, didn't mean to push so hard (I once pushed my daughter away from me when she was about to dump ice water on my then-newborn, and she fell straight backwards and hit her head--







-- I never meant to make her fall!), you need to discuss this with him calmly and get assurance it will never happen again.

If he continues to refuse to talk about it, or if he exhibits violence again in the future, that is quite serious IMO.


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## arlecchina (Jul 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamalita*
I'm right, right?? This was a TOTAL big deal, right?? This was as awful as it seemed, right??


having been in two abusive relationships that stikes such a chord with me. yes, it's a big deal! what he said to you was terrible. you completely deserve more respect than that. everyone does.

I always hated feeling like I had to keep questioning my own sanity, when they're the ones driving the sanity right out of you.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

There is a free hotline to call for help: http://www.ndvh.org/help/contact.html
There is also information on this website that may help you figure out if you are being abused.

I feel uncomfortable really commenting because it is hard to know the complete picture online. If the issue was really just that your DS gets overly hungry at the end of the day the obvious solution would be to feed him earlier, to make something simple for dinner that is ready when DH walks in the door, to let go of the idea of family meals, etc. However when you are describing notes telling people to be peaceful, etc. it suggests to me there is more of a long term history here.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
read the original post I kept thinking "no wonder her husband snapped" there really does come a breaking point.

Are you serious? That's what you were thinking when reading the OP?
This forum is all about gentle discipline. What the father did was not only not gentle but abusive. It would certainly be different if he made some attempt to rectify what he did. But he instead acted as if nothing had happened and treated the mother as if she were in the wrong.
Relationships like this are really complicated. When the power struggle has escalated to a certain point, as this one certainly has, BOTH people exhibit unhealthy and/or abusive communication patterns. That's why6 it's not a blame game. It's simply a matter of somebody breaking the toxic pattern. In this case, the mother has come to us for help and ideas. She is therefore on the brink of possibly breaking the pattern. This needs to be encouraged. There is an imminent need here. She must take her son, and leave the situation in order for all parties to get some peace and quiet and some time for introspection.

Quote:

Instead of being all pissy about your husbands understandable but inappropriate reaction howe about acknowledge that sopmething needs to be done to work on ds' behavioor and fidgure out what that is.
This is a completely invalidating and belittling statement. This mother is not being "all pissy" about anything. She is attempting to break a cycle of abuse within her family.

Quote:

it is normal for children to act out while hungry and tired. it is not normal for them to be allowed to continue being tired and hungry and crabby and abusive while thier parents just sit around and take it.
So the child is the abusive one in this scenario? The mother should be figuring out a way to keep the peace? Where exactly does this leave the father who pushed the child down without taking any responsibility for it?

Quote:

if you want to be peaceful you need to work at it. a note isn't going to cut it.
Yes. She does. By getting the heck out of there.

Quote:

are you listening to your dh when he talks? or are you telling him how to parent? what does a peacful home look like to you? what does it look like to your husband?
There are times when a woman is allowed to listen to her own gut.

Mamalita,
I also want to say something to you here. The point of leaving the situation is really to keep your son away from conflict. There were studies done after WW2 which showed that children from divorced families had greater instances of drug abuse, dropout, criminal activity etc etc. So it was generally concluded that divorce was bad for kids. Well, a few years later, further studies showed that, in fact, children of divorced families do just as well as children from families where the parents are together. It is the *exposure to parental conflict* that leads to trauma and negatively impacts their lives.
Also, being very conscious of avoiding conflict in front of, or within earshot of your son, will help you to compartmentalize it so it does not overwhelm your days.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kaitnbugsmom*
You know Im' going to say it but here it is..

you need to get a protective order and go to a shelter ASAP.. If it weren't for the abuse I'd say do not leave your house, have him removed. But he *is* being abusive toward you and your dc, so that goes out the window and I have to say get thee to a shelter. Your dc is worth more than any latent or lingering love you have for the sperm donor {a person who would do as described is neither a husband or father}

Oh give me a freakin' break.

1- The man is not a sperm donor. He is her husband and her son's father.

2- He got frustrated and pushed a kid who, in the OP's words, had been "going after him in anger." I'm often tempted to do something mean when the kids here are doing stuff like that. I manage to not hurt them, but it's not easy.

Quote:

Also - and this is what I meant about involving anyone - because of my family's history (getting hit by our dad), I feel like everyone in my family will accuse me of making a "big deal" out of this. They'll tell me that DH is "such a 'good' guy" and that I should just "make up" (as if this was a lover's quarrel) . I'm right, right?? This was a TOTAL big deal, right?? This was as awful as it seemed, right??
Yes, I do think that you are overreacting and you need to make up with your husband. He got tired of being abused himself and lashed out. Sure, he shouldn't have done it. But I can understand getting to the point where you're at a loss for what to do but something has to happen.

You need to work on this mama. If you know that ds hurting your dh is a problem and you don't like how he may deal with it, you need to step and and protect your husband.

Quote:

She must take her son, and leave the situation in order for all parties to get some peace and quiet and some time for introspection.
And for the record, he's not "her son," he's "their son" and no judge in the country will let her not return the boy to his father because he pushed him for repeatedly acting out in a violent way.


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## Kaitnbugsmom (Dec 4, 2003)

strange how all it took was ONE incident of "pushing away" a child who had been hitting her mom on the head with a cordless phone to get five kids taken away from BOTH their parents not too long ago.


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

*pathui5* wrote:

Quote:

If you know that ds hurting your dh is a problem and you don't like how he may deal with it, you need to step and and protect your husband.
I think this may be one of the most absurd statements I've seen on MDC.







: A grown woman needs to "protect" a grown man from a 4 year old boy?!! Why is this HER problem?


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## Willowrose (Jan 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5*
Oh give me a freakin' break.

1- The man is not a sperm donor. He is her husband and her son's father.

2- He got frustrated and pushed a kid who, in the OP's words, had been "going after him in anger." I'm often tempted to do something mean when the kids here are doing stuff like that. I manage to not hurt them, but it's not easy.

Yes, I do think that you are overreacting and you need to make up with your husband. He got tired of being abused himself and lashed out. Sure, he shouldn't have done it. But I can understand getting to the point where you're at a loss for what to do but something has to happen.

You need to work on this mama. If you know that ds hurting your dh is a problem and you don't like how he may deal with it, you need to step and and protect your husband.

And for the record, he's not "her son," he's "their son" and no judge in the country will let her not return the boy to his father because he pushed him for repeatedly acting out in a violent way.


I totally agree with this.

First, you have to sit down DH and talk with him. Both of you need to come up with an alternative to your son pinching and acting aggressively. Having a "gentle discipline" household HAS to apply to your son as well.

Second, to pull your little boy out of there based on this incident and without even attempting to work things out as a family unit is going to affect him tremendously.

Third, this is your side of the story. I am in NO way condoning your husbands behavior. However, he may see things differently. Your method of parenting without time-outs or other consequences should be a mutual decision. Was this something you had both agreed on? Does you husband have full concept of how to parent like this and what kind of consequences can be administered?
Has he read books on this style of discipline?

Are you telling your son not to act out aggressively? Are you giving him alternatives to his behavior?
Could you possibly take your son outdoors or get him involved in some physical play an hour or so before DH gets home?

I think attempting to restructure your sons schedule, tackle his aggressiveness with DH, and discussing various forms of discipline should all be steps taken BEFORE you disrupt your sons life as he knows it.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

To clarify for the OP:
You have mothers here who have survived domestic violence telling you to go.
You have others who may or may not have survived domestic violence offering you suggestions, should you choose to stay and work on your relationship.

This isn't going to be easy. He hasn't gone far enough that you're going to be able to know for certain that you did the right thing. The rest of your life, you're going to have that little voice in your head that says "was it really worth it?"
BUT for me, the reason I said "go" is because he was out of line, and he broke the agreement that you (the adults) had between you to love and respect one another and has not acknowledged that he did anything wrong. And that was a BIG transgression in my book. It doesn't sound like either one of you is committed to working things out any more, and swift and decisive action may well be less distressing for your son than growing up watching his parents fight over him.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

OP - Everyone here seems to be telling you what to do.

I am not going to do that.

This is your life. Only you can decide, for sure, the things that need to be decided.

For instance - was this the culmination of angry outbursts from your husband toward your son? Or was it truly a one-time, frustration thing?

Your husband sounds like he is in deep denial about the seriousness of what he has done. The only way to find out how he truly feels about it is to initiate a conversation, if possible, and ask him directly whether he feels that the way he handled it was OK. Perhaps his "everything's OK" attitude was his way of trying to make up, or apologize. Or, perhaps it's a symptom of denial about what he has done and the wrongness of it (projecting their own problems onto other people is a very common thing for abusers to do... it's not THEIR fault, you're the one who's unreasonable). Again, these are things only you can decide.

Your son sounds like he is cranky toward your husband in the evenings. THAT IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM. And, it ain't your fault. It's not your problem anymore than it's H's problem when your DS comes over and hits you (that is to say, it's a family problem, but it's not your job alone to solve it). It sounds like you are the referee of the family. Why is this? Why? You shouldn't have to be. Are you the referee because you don't trust easily? Or are you the referee because you simply don't trust your husband? Are you, unwittingly, already the enabler of the family? Or, are you simply a person who is afraid because of seeing abuse in the past?

From what you said in the original post, it sounds like you have serious doubts about H's ability to handle stressful situations with DS. Is this the case? If so, that should play into your decision of what to do.

Also, I noticed that you seem a bit unhappy with H, above and beyond the problems involving your son. It's easy to confuse the two; but you might want to try to remember that they are separate.

I don't know if my thoughts help any. But, if you come from a family of abusers, you could have been in denial in the past yourself. If the behavior continues to escalate, you will look at this point in time as the time when you should have done something. Whether that something involves addressing it personally with H, or leaving him, or getting counseling, or whatever... I think you will regret not addressing it.

I will be thinking of you, mama, and anxiously waiting to see how the situation resolves.

Lastly - if your gut tells you to do something hard, it may be scary and it may be hard as hell, but a woman's intuition is rarely wrong.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." —Margaret Mead


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elsasmommy*
I'm not advocating shoving a child, but it sounds like your husband needs a break. My husband gets less patient after a long day at work and as the kids get tired and cranky near bedtime, he is looking forward to getting them in bed. (He is very loving and takes them bike riding and to the swings and all kinds of stuff when he gets home from work, but he needs a break as the night wears on). If he doesn't get some alone time and time with me, his stress levels build. So I try to keep things rolling along smoothly toward bedtime and make it clear to my kids that after they go to bed, it's time for mommy and daddy to be together. They know that we are best friends and need to spend time together to work on our friendship.

It may be normal but it's not acceptable for a 4 year to keep pinching daddy. There need to be rules about what you do when this happens. I would not say "please" when telling my child to stop hurting someone, I would be very firm about it. I personally would be angry if I kept getting pinched and I would need to get away from my child in this case. I cannot tolerate physical pain and would be scared that I too would push the child away. And if you know he is getting angry every night at 7, why not feed him much earlier and have him do some quiet play until bedtime. My kids are older than your son and they eat at 5 pm and by 7 pm, they are bathed and in their jammies and winding down for the evening reading books. After a busy day, I and my husband need things to start calming down after the supper hour. We only have so much patience.

I think your husband is acting immature, but I would be very unhappy if I made a parenting mistake like this out of tiredness and frustration and my husband yelled at me and pitted me against my son. I'm sure my opinion will be unpopular to some here, but you will not have a good family life if your son's bedtime routine doesn't become more calm and if you expect your husband to put up with being physically assaulted every night by your son. And if you make your husband out to be the enemy and do not work together with him to solve the problems. Yelling at him is not the answer. You and your husband need to talk calmly and rationally about how you will handle your son's aggression and your husband's frustration. You may not mind being pinched and having things thrown, but it would make me very very stressed and unhappy at the end of a long day.

I don't know you or your dh, but based on your post I agree with this. Really, if my 4yo did that, I'd want to push him, too! It's unacceptable, IMO, for a 4yo to be allowed to harm another person. If you are against time out, how about a "time in", such as "you must want to be in your room, away from daddy, since you keep hurting him". Of course, eliminating the cause of the problem would be best (avoiding a late dinner).


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## raleigh_mom (Jan 11, 2004)

Yes, shoving a 4yo to the ground is wrong.

So is condoning violence by your son against your husband.

I have a 5yo and 3yo. If they attack me or DH, we take action. You are against both time outs and logical consequence (which both are debated on the GD board), so I think you need to tell us what action you *are* willing to take in order to back up your DH.

I don't know your family. Maybe there are other signs of real abuse, in which case you need to protect yourself and your child, but if my DDs were pinching and hitting me and my husband told me to ignore it, I'd be pretty pissed.


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## SomedayMom (May 9, 2002)

I don't like that your DH shoved your son *but* if he can learn something from it, it may not be as all out horrible as you say. His attitude afterwards...his lack of feeling badly for it, the way he spoke to you seems to suggest something more. Only you know for sure. If this seems like it will escalate, get out. If it seems to be a case of a very bad stressful night, a serious talk is probably the better option.

As for your son...My son would be a mess if I waited every single night until 7 to feed him. I understand the value of the family dinner, but it is obviously making your son irritable, so screw the family dinner. Feed your child when he's hungry and get him to bed earlier. You do sound like you love him so much and want to protect him. You need to protect him from these stressful nights even if that means forgoing the family dinner until he is old enough to wait that long to eat. Of course, my son is only a toddler and he eats by 5:30 whether DH is home or not.


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

I agree with pathiu inasmuch as a "no violence" household must extend to the child's behavior too. You can all mockingly say "but he's just four years old" but imagine wrestling with a very strong, oversized monkey and you can get the idea what it is like to be beat up on by a 4 y.o. on a daily basis.

From the time he was old enought to hit, I spent the next four years of my son's life bruised from waist to toe and sometimes above the belt too. I looked like a battered wife. He also kicked me numerous times in the stomach while I was pregnant (2 different pregnancies), twice with hard winter boots on. Children that age CAN act abusive and I am here to atest to that.

How much this weighs in on the current situation I do not know. The most chilling part of the story is that the husband was strumming his guitar and interacting with the son as though nothing had happened... that to me is scarier than the pushing, which, might have been an accident in terms of its force, or, might have been provoked (not that that makes it ok). I mean the fact that he didn't even privately apologize to his wife, or promise it wouldn't happen again, and instead blamed her (even if her reaction was not ideal, threatening and running out of the house only to return)... those are red flags of psychological abuse.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

No one can tell you from your post whether a) you and your son are in danger with an abusive DH or b) your DH acted completely inappropriately out of frustration, fatigue, whatever. Only YOU know that.

That said - if a) -- you need to take steps to leave the situation altogether.

If b) -- your reaction to DH, especially in front of DS, is not helping anything. You need to help DH learn tools to deal with DS in an appropriate and more effective manner. And create scenarios that are not explosive - like maybe feed DS earlier and get him in bed by 7 if he is very tired and acting out by that point. And you especially don't need to set up a good parent/bad parent scenario. I fear that your gut reaction of protection to DS was very severe -- and sets up like an alienation of DH -- sort of you and DS v. DH. No good will come from that for the family as a whole.

But like I said - only you know what is actually going on in your household.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meowee*
I too think it was wrong for you to threaten to leave your husband in front of your son, whisk him off to another town (when he was already cranky and tired?) and then tell him "you might stay in a hotel that night." If the situation is life or death, LEAVE and don't come back. Otherwise, don't leave, come back, threaten to leave again, all in earshot of your son.

Your husband was just as wrong to call you crazy and threaten you with a custody battle.

If you do get into a custody battle and it comes up that he shoved your son to the ground, and that you remained in the house with your husband, it could well reflect badly on you.

You need to make a decision one way or the other, but don't go back and forth like this. If your husband was burnt out, didn't mean to push so hard (I once pushed my daughter away from me when she was about to dump ice water on my then-newborn, and she fell straight backwards and hit her head--







-- I never meant to make her fall!), you need to discuss this with him calmly and get assurance it will never happen again.

If he continues to refuse to talk about it, or if he exhibits violence again in the future, that is quite serious IMO.

Agree -- too much drama - not helping anything.


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## ConfusedPrincess (Jul 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Willowrose*
I totally agree with this.

First, you have to sit down DH and talk with him. Both of you need to come up with an alternative to your son pinching and acting aggressively. Having a "gentle discipline" household HAS to apply to your son as well.

Second, to pull your little boy out of there based on this incident and without even attempting to work things out as a family unit is going to affect him tremendously.

Third, this is your side of the story. I am in NO way condoning your husbands behavior. However, he may see things differently. Your method of parenting without time-outs or other consequences should be a mutual decision. Was this something you had both agreed on? Does you husband have full concept of how to parent like this and what kind of consequences can be administered?
Has he read books on this style of discipline?

Are you telling your son not to act out aggressively? Are you giving him alternatives to his behavior?
Could you possibly take your son outdoors or get him involved in some physical play an hour or so before DH gets home?

I think attempting to restructure your sons schedule, tackle his aggressiveness with DH, and discussing various forms of discipline should all be steps taken BEFORE you disrupt your sons life as he knows it.









Very well put-you should take her advice


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

As I read your first paragraph, before I got to what followed, my response was: What is she doing in the middle like that? You're telling DS not to hit Daddy, you're telling DAddy how to relate to DS. Your interpolating yourself in between any communication between them.

People have said that your husband behaved very immaturely. In that first paragraph, I saw you treating them both like warring siblings. And the response that came out of that was that your husband did something my older son might do to his 3yo sister.

It also jumped out at me that you grabbed your son and carried him along to yell at H about it, and kept dictating "How we should handle this" to H before it happened.... I'm not a "we should keep a united front" or a "don't argue in front of the kids" person, but I Think any addressing of this between you and H needs to be just you and H, not bringing your DS into it.

I'm not saying what he did was okay, and I"m more disturbed by the later developments (the threat of a custody battle?) than the actual shove, to be honest. But it felt, as the story started, like the setup was leading to that point of H acting just like a child, because he's already being treated like a child.... did that makes sense?


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## deleria (Mar 8, 2004)

Mamas, I feel like I have to say something as a former survivor of domestic abuse, much like the OP. I hope that everyone who is critisizing how she reacted to the situation is attempting to do so in a constructive manner and not from a place of judgement.

As someone who grew up with abuse I find it very difficult to decide what is overreacting, underreacting or reacting just right to any situation involving violence, fighting, etc. And this is after several years of therapy and self-reflection. Things can seem very black-and-white to an abuse survivor. Growing up in a violent household gave me absolutely NO experience with healthy relationships between parents or between parent and child. I had to learn what a functional household is and isn't.

I guess I'm just asking that everyone try and be sensitive in their responses, that's all. We don't all come from the same backgrounds and none of us are flies on the wall in the OPs home.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I wonder.....if a mom had lost her temper and pushed her kid, would we tell that mama's husband to leave his wife, do not pass go, do not collect $200? Would we tell a mother who admitted to such a thing that no longer deserved to parent her child? That she should leave her family in shame?

I've seen many a mom admit to a violent act towards a child here. All were extremely apologetic, of course, as they should be, because it's not okay, of course. And it's troubling that your DH was not contrite.

However. I would be extremely distraught if my husband pushed my child down to the ground, but I would never threaten him with divorce just for that. The act in and of itself is not, IMO, grounds for separation, women's shelter, etc. It's grounds for serious concern, and communication, and discussion; maybe family therapy, depending on whether this seems like an indication of deeper things. But consider--consider carefully.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

I wonder.....if a mom had lost her temper and pushed her kid, would we tell that mama's husband to leave his wife, do not pass go, do not collect $200? Would we tell a mother who admitted to such a thing that no longer deserved to parent her child? That she should leave her family in shame?
Nope. People would be saying things like:

"That must have been so hard for you. It's really tough when your son won't stop pinching you."

"Try not to beat yourself up. Everyone loses it. We move and and try to do better."

But because men, of course, are violent and evil, she must escape from him at once.

I mean, come on. This guy is the other parent. He is fully a parent, as much as she is. He loves his son. He is frustrated and doesn't want to be hurt by him. He doesn't sound like a mean guy. He sounds like he's being treated like less than an adult and he doesn't know what to do with his son or his wife.


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## BabyOsMommy (Jul 1, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5*
This guy is the other parent. He is fully a parent, as much as she is. He loves his son. He is frustrated and doesn't want to be hurt by him. He doesn't sound like a mean guy. He sounds like he's being treated like less than an adult and he doesn't know what to do with his son or his wife.

I agree.

To OP, talking to your dh is paramount right now. Find out what he's thinking and feeling. Just listen to him without judgement. Then decide what the next step is.

What I'd do regardless of his response:

Counselling for myself would be my first course of action, even if it's just for myself and ds. I know what it's like to live in an agressive home where people act out of anger and fail to communicate at all, let alone in a healthy manner, so I know what it's like to struggle to maintain normalcy in your own household as an adult. It's taken years of therapy, workshops to even start feeling whole.







to you, mama.

I also agree with pp's who suggest moving dinner time. I think that family suppertime is the lower priority right now and even if you have to move his schedule back by 15 mins/day to minimalize the transition, it may solve some of the stress that everyone is feeling. Separation and divorce will negate the family supper anyhow, so I'd be working towards peace and then family suppers can come when he's older.


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## Emilie (Dec 23, 2003)

Thinking of you mama....


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## LisainCalifornia (May 29, 2002)

Yes, it is obvious that your husband acted inappropriately, but so did you. You should not have lost it and dragged your son out of there. I don't care that "you agreed on family dinnertime"--if it isn't working out for your son, then change it starting tonight. I have 3 children older than your kids, and I cannot imagine making them wait until their father gets home to eat. They eat at 5-5:30, and then have their baths and quiet time.

You are inserting your child in the middle of a lot of adult drama, which he does not need and may damage him. Start modifying his schedule so he can have some *peace* in his life, and make things easier for him. I also have a high needs son, and forcing him to wait that long for dinner after a long day would have been a recipe for disaster. You need to really start looking at what your child *needs* from you, and stop trying to fit him into a grown-up time table. You can put dh's dinner in on a plate and he can heat it up when he gets home--and you can either eat with him or if it works better for your son you eat with him. I always eat with my kids early, and let my husband heat up his dinner later. We have "family dinner" on the weekend, which is also at 5:30, in order to keep the kids on their timetable. They would all be terribly grouchy, tired and starving if we forced them to eat later.

I know I seem harsh, but you need to really look at how you are operating your lives together as a family unit and make some changes.

Take care,
Lisa


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

:


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## Emilie (Dec 23, 2003)

Mama- I am sorry- I feel you are being attacked here- however unintentionally....

You were being very honest about what happened- something many of us aren't.

We are not there.... we do not know what issues are all going in to this.

I want you to feel support and not judgement. Lots of moms are generating ideas. The main one seems to be- Talk to dh. That sounds simple.( i know sometimes in my home it sounds easier than it is!- man the smallest comment can turn into a big fight! Much less differences in parenting!)

You are taking HUGE steps to insure ds does not come out of childhood "damaged" -you have thought things thru- figured out how you want things done. Lets do that now.

I hope you will continue to post and not feel hurt. I do not believe anyone wants to hurt you. Maybe you and dh can generate some ideas to do when this sort of things happens again.

I hope you are doing ok.


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## m9m9m9 (Jun 13, 2005)

Wow.

From your description, it sounds like you both were frustrated, angry and fed up.

Your husband overreacted physically. You overreacted emotionally.

I am not sure where the domestic violence angle is coming in. I read the information to be that he shoved past you ~ as in he was walking by and shoved you in the process. Not a nice thing to do, but I am wouldn't put this down as domestic abuse. (Don't get me wrong - I believe the first time a man hits a woman she needs to walk out the door and never look back but that's not what I am seeing as happening. And no, there is nothing in the post that leads me to believe his behavior is going to escalate.)

He made a child rearing mistake. He's human and its going to happen again. Will you react this way everytime ~ running off with your son to another town, etc? He was still angry when you got home, just like you were.

I agree with others about dinner. Its not working. Can he eat earlier and then just sit with you guys and have a glass of milk or some other small snack at what is your dinnertime?

As far as the pinching and hitting, whatever method you are using isn't working. Why get stuck in the "we don't do this" "we don't do that" mindset? Maybe your son does need "time out" - you don't need to call it that or put him in a special place but there is nothing wrong with saying firmly "you may not hurt me" and then walking away or setting him up with some activity to do that doesn't involve you for a few minutes. I would think it would be better to do that then stick to some philosphical child rearing ideal for the sake of "we don't do that" than letting things escalate to the level where your husband felt his only available option was to physically push your son away in frustration.

Maggie


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny*
(the threat of a custody battle?)

well yeah but that is only becuase he threatened to leave with his son as if he had no say or rights. I think that was more of a promise/reality check. moms often take for granted that they can have thier way by taking the child and leaving. Iknow if my husband said "I don't like the way you are doing things I am taking the girls and leaving" the first words out of my mouth would be a promise to fight like a crazy person for them. I don't see how him saying he would fight for custody is anyway a bad thing. she threatened (and hers was a threat) to take thier son. he promised to fight for him if she did. I don't know, I guess I woul dbe heartbriken to think of a dad that cared so little they wouldn't fight tooth and nail for custody if someone tried to seperate them from thier children for whatever reason.


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## cinnamonamon (May 2, 2003)

To play devil's advocate -- Perhaps your dh was very angry still when you got home. I could see my dh doing the same -- you ticked him off (however much he may or may not have deserved it) so he knew what would tick you off (pretending like he thought everything was fine and moving your note). It sounds as if he feels powerless when it comes to disciplining your ds. Mine feels the same way at times, but we have it easier as ours aren't as high spirited so I don't have a lot of advice.

I'd suggest some serious talks & perhaps finding some resources for your dh so he can learn to take care of his son as well as you do. That should hopefully help you feel more safe as well.

I understand that when you have trama in your background/history you are more likely to immediately "see red" when anything along the lines of what happened to you happens. My dad cheated horrifically on my mother and verbally abused us constantly while manipulating us all into his sick mind games. He ruined my relationship with my closest (in age) sister & made me feel ugly, unimportant, and irritating. When my dh so much as mutters that ds1 is being whiney or irritating I snap at him. I am mortally afraid that ds1 will grow up feeling unloved/unwanted/not favored by dh. I still don't know if/when I am overreacting.

Hugs to you, mama -- and know that everyone here really does want to help you -- but only you know the details & personalities of your family. We are here for you no matter what!


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *m9m9m9*
As far as the pinching and hitting, whatever method you are using isn't working. Why get stuck in the "we don't do this" "we don't do that" mindset? Maybe your son does need "time out"

I don't think of GD as getting stuck in a philosophical mindset.

Just because a child does not overcome a difficult emotional development stage as fast as we want them to, that does not mean we have to keep escalating our efforts until it changes.

This is not the thread, I believe, to start the "GD isn't working? Throw their butt in timeout!" debate.

I am not sure why everyone is giving the mom here responsibility for the fact that her son pinches DH. If they are both the parents, he should be involved in the discipline as well, and it's not her job to make up for his inability to keep things from escalating.

I really find it disturbing the extent to which everyone is blaming the mama and giving her full responsibility for a discipline situation which her H needs to handle. I don't always handle my discipline situations well, but who does. At some point he as a parent needs to find a way to deal with the situation.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
I wonder.....if a mom had lost her temper and pushed her kid, would we tell that mama's husband to leave his wife, do not pass go, do not collect $200? Would we tell a mother who admitted to such a thing that no longer deserved to parent her child? That she should leave her family in shame?

Regardless of what other people may be assuming here, I, as a survivor and escapee of an abusive relationship, am not taking the sex nor the gender of the people involved into consideration when I am voicing my thoughts. I have made a strict policy within my home of *ZERO violence*. I believe that the OP has been attempting to do the same. Much that has been said on this thread is exactly why it is so difficult to break abusive patterns. I'm sure we are all giving voice to the internal struggle that is taking place in Mamalita's mind.

In order to maintain my zero violence policy, I have had to make changes within myself. Huge changes. It's not an easy thing to do. Many people here who are blaiming Mamalita are admitting to feeling violent tendancies themselves, or admitting to see the dad's side at first glance. That is a major problem for me. The fact is. anyone who has a tendancy towards violence needs to seek help. It is possible to break out of that mindset. It is possible to learn to stop making excuses for violent acts. It's really difficult, but it's possible.

Mamalita came here seeking help. In fact she came here seeking help "desperately". That, to me, is a sign of someone that wants to find the inner strength and power it takes to make the necessary changes in her life to find the peaceful home she wants. In order to do that, she needs some space from her partner. The dynamic between the two of them is toxic. There is no blame involved. But Mamalita seems clear enough in her mind to be honest, open, and seek help when she needs it. She's a step ahead of her partner. Breaking toxic cycles is the most difficult interpersonal task ever. Let's support her in that and stop blaming her here. *The first step to break a cycle of violence is to remove yourself and your child from the situation.* After that there's all the time in the world to asses your role etc.


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
I really find it disturbing the extent to which everyone is blaming the mama and giving her full responsibility for a discipline situation which her H needs to handle. I don't always handle my discipline situations well, but who does. At some point he as a parent needs to find a way to deal with the situation.

I think the concern here is that it seems like maybe mama has taken on the responsibility for disciplining their ds and perhaps, inadvertently, cut her dh out of the process. The notes and the way things were handled makes it seem as if her husband feels unwelcome to actively parent their son when it comes to discipline issues. I can see that happening with any parent who's the at-home caregiver -- it's a very easy habit to fall into when you're a nurturer, doubly so when you're an abuse survivor. I don't think anyone's casting blame, but is simply trying to highlight a behavior that might be contributing to the tension. It's a complicated situation and there are a number of suggestions that have been made to help, this being only one of them.


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## Red (Feb 6, 2002)

Ok, my first instinct is to encourage you to get counseling to better deal with the problem and also to sit down with your dh and be sure he understands just how upset you are and why.

A lot of important points have been made. I wouldn't suggest a mother who came here lookig for some support after pushing her child be walked out o. However, I owuld think that mother was feeling remorse and you said he also pushed you. If she, the imagined mother, had pushe dher child and then her dh, I might counsel that dh to protect him and his child first and worry about her afterwards. In fact, I know I would.

You know him better than anyone. Your child is worth protecting. It might be worth contacting a dometic violence center for more information. There situations rarely improve without help.

FWIW, I think your leaving for a cooling down time was perfect. Staying would have allowed the situation to escalate. You know how your dh reacts. If he was apt to make things worse, leaving wa the only thing you could do.


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## Willowrose (Jan 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamajama*
Regardless of what other people may be assuming here, I, as a survivor and escapee of an abusive relationship, am not taking the sex nor the gender of the people involved into consideration when I am voicing my thoughts. I have made a strict policy within my home of *ZERO violence*. I believe that the OP has been attempting to do the same. Much that has been said on this thread is exactly why it is so difficult to break abusive patterns. I'm sure we are all giving voice to the internal struggle that is taking place in Mamalita's mind.

In order to maintain my zero violence policy, I have had to make changes within myself. Huge changes. It's not an easy thing to do. Many people here who are blaiming Mamalita are admitting to feeling violent tendancies themselves, or admitting to see the dad's side at first glance. That is a major problem for me. The fact is. anyone who has a tendancy towards violence needs to seek help. It is possible to break out of that mindset. It is possible to learn to stop making excuses for violent acts. It's really difficult, but it's possible.

Mamalita came here seeking help. In fact she came here seeking help "desperately". That, to me, is a sign of someone that wants to find the inner strength and power it takes to make the necessary changes in her life to find the peaceful home she wants. In order to do that, she needs some space from her partner. The dynamic between the two of them is toxic. There is no blame involved. But Mamalita seems clear enough in her mind to be honest, open, and seek help when she needs it. She's a step ahead of her partner. Breaking toxic cycles is the most difficult interpersonal task ever. Let's support her in that and stop blaming her here. *The first step to break a cycle of violence is to remove yourself and your child from the situation.* After that there's all the time in the world to asses your role etc.


I agree, however, in order to enforce a ZERO violence, it must include ds. In stopping the entire pattern of abuse, it needs to be taught to her son as well. Tolerating his pinching, is tolerating the acting out of violence in the home.


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## Wolfmeis (Nov 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *raleigh_mom*
Yes, shoving a 4yo to the ground is wrong.

So is condoning violence by your son against your husband.

I have a 5yo and 3yo. If they attack me or DH, we take action. You are against both time outs and logical consequence (which both are debated on the GD board), so I think you need to tell us what action you *are* willing to take in order to back up your DH.

I don't know your family. Maybe there are other signs of real abuse, in which case you need to protect yourself and your child, but if my DDs were pinching and hitting me and my husband told me to ignore it, I'd be pretty pissed.









:

I hope things work out for you. Remember to love your dh as well as your son.


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## emma_goldman (May 18, 2005)

I'm thinking of you too, dear Momma.

I'm sending deep breaths your way, with total confidence that you are transforming the ickiness you are breathing in right now into light and wonder...with every step and with every breath.

-Debora


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## Delacroix (Aug 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Willowrose*
I agree, however, in order to enforce a ZERO violence, it must include ds. In stopping the entire pattern of abuse, it needs to be taught to her son as well. Tolerating his pinching, is tolerating the acting out of violence in the home.


ITA.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I agree with the other people about inforcing the no violence for your son also. I can understand your husband's frustration if this behavior is happening every night or fairly often. Stop everything and eat a small snack with your son. Make sure lunch isn't to late so he is hungry for a snack. If it means getting your son up earlier you should do it. You might want to do a family breakfast instead. Or feed your ds and self a meal then have a snack with dad while dad eats at 7.....these are your part in keeping the home peaceful. Keeping a peaceful home doesn't lay just on your husband's shoulders.

Please I am not trying to blame you or saying it is your fault. Your dh's reaction was wrong but so was yours. Picking up your hurt child and screaming at your dh doesn't solve anything. It is actually a horrible way to fight.

One of my biggest battles in life is having to learn to fight "fair". I was verbally abusive....one of the things I have had to learn is to walk off and not engage when I am mad (and if my dh pushed my child I would be mad). I had never learn good skills because they were never in my home. I grew up with abusive parents and I really had to fix me before I could fix anyone else.

I think this is something you need to also learn to better GD and be a better person.....*I really think for this situation you both were wrong and need to learn from it.* One other thing that I have had to learn is that I cannot control how other people react but how I re-act to them. I also have had to step back and not micro-manage my dh's parenting. With my first husband I did this and I think this is why he "withdrew" from our son. He just gave up because he took my "advice" as saying he wasn't a good father. He did this with a lot of things but I really see how I played a role in how he was reacting to me. Why would he want to do my laundry if I always criticised how it was done? or change a diaper? do dishes? clean house? Don't get trapped into my way is the only way.

There are many ways to GD through this pinching/hitting phase and the first is start by changing your son's schedule because you are setting him up to fail.

Had to add....since you were there and we were not. One lesson my step-mom had to learn in fighting fair was not blocking my dad if he wanted to leave the house. You said your dh pushed you were you blocking him? My step-mom jokes about having the talk with their counciler about being pushed. And the counciler asked her what she would have done if he was trying to block her from leaving.....they both started laughing because she said get a bat which she had done. It was a momment of seeing one's own absurdity in each other's behavior. My dad was an abuser. He and his wife have worked hard to not be that way. But like me they had to unlearn behaviors and comfort zones.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Your dh shoving YOU after he made the horrible mistake of shoving your ds is where this gets problematic for me. (Sounds like he's a repeat shover--not likely to change.)


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## arlecchina (Jul 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
I wonder.....if a mom had lost her temper and pushed her kid, would we tell that mama's husband to leave his wife, do not pass go, do not collect $200? Would we tell a mother who admitted to such a thing that no longer deserved to parent her child? That she should leave her family in shame?


obviously I can speak for no one but myself but my prob with her story isnt the shove. people get upset and have bad judgement. my personal issue is what he said to her after, and showing no guilt over what he'd done. was the OP perfectly right to leave when hubby was shut up in his room? I dont -think- so, as he'd already removed himself....but I think she panicked and felt she had to get away. his shove and her taking off were both extremes I understand. what he said to her after...well...I just get the impression it wasnt the first nor likely the last time. but I am not the OP nor do I live in her house. I think everyone jumping down her throat is overlooking the fact that she was still trying to work it out, and he was VERBALLY abusive. read: abusive. we all know words hurt as bad or worse than hands. or feet. or being thrown into a wall, etc.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

arlecchina, ITA. This is why women find it so hard to leave abusive relationships: because they are told that they have to work it out for the sake of the kids. I've never actually seen it happen before, and to see the manipulative words that were used against me written down is totally sickening.

Back to the normal thread: tough choice, but I'm thinking of you.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

sorry, editing mishap


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cinnamonamon*
T
I'd suggest some serious talks & perhaps finding some resources for your dh so he can learn to take care of his son as well as you do. That should hopefully help you feel more safe as well.


this is what I keep seeing and it bothers me (not just from the person who quoted) but everyone saying "talk to your husband and tell him how to parent right. whip him into shape." because obviously the only reason he isn't doing things your way is because he doesn't have enough knowledge andinformation. why not instead just ask him how he feels ds should be parented, what is acceptable or not to him in terms of behavior, teaching right behaviors and teaching discipline to that end. i seriously doubt he feels like he has any say in any of this. I know if my dh took control of everything, gave me a script, left me little notes, assumed they knew best, it would would leave me sitting in a corner not participating at all until I snapped. and I think that is what a lot of husbands do. but what would you have done if he jumped up and took the playdough away because it was causing stress? what would you have done if he went in the bedroom and shut the door so he didn't have to be exposed to the chaos? what if he given your son a PB&J sandwhich and put him to bed? would he have gotten in trouble for that too? lwhy not just talk and really listen to him. to his ideas. to his plan. come to an agreement on discipline (including what he thinks is good and nessecary, not just going over the ideals from books you read), and standards of behavior, I might be good.

I don't see where he had a chance to cool down and apologize for his behavior. He couldn't take any more chaos, pushed your ds out of the way (again, unacceptable but probably didn't intend to knock him over, just ohysically move him), and instantly had you (with ds in your arms - totally unacceptable) yelling and ranting about how evil he is, how you will leave how he isn't good enough, refusing to listen to him (so why apologize anyway. would you have even believed him? you had already pegged him as a child abuser) and then you leave. one more way to control things. and then in the morning he still wasn't doing and saying exactly what you wanted. so he is still bad. let him and ds work out thier own relationship. maybe if he hadn't been so scraed or felt so incapable or unallowed to take control of the situation in the first place it wouldn't have escelated thus. I would be hesitant to jump in to a parenting situation where my husband felt he had al the answers and new better than me. why not just let him handle it if he knows all thier is to know about how these things are done and my way is never good enough? and then when he didn't handle it it would upset me. because afterall if his way worked so well wouldn't our child be better behaved? your husbands reaction sounds very predictable to me. it sounds like everything was set up for failure as a previous poster mentioned because there doesn't seem to be any proactive plan for discipline just a long list of what you won't do.

Quote:

I think everyone jumping down her throat is overlooking the fact that she was still trying to work it out, and he was VERBALLY abusive. read: abusive. we all know words hurt as bad or worse than hands. or feet. or being thrown into a wall, etc.
perhaps people are overlooking it becuase what she said was at least as abusive as what he said if not worse. I think you both acted terribly and owe each other an apology. further more she dragged her son into the middle of it. physically put him in the middle. why? to show dh the damage he did? to show ds how much dh offended mommy? to make sure son knew who the better parent was? what do you think would have been a better thing to do in that situation? did you need to chase dh? was scolding dh really more important than attending to ds's needs? why need feed ds, put him to bed etc and then once dh had a chance to cool down and so did you, talk rationally about it? but no. instead you chose to scream and rant and pull ds into the middle of it every bit as much as your dh chose to lose it and not be so considerate of people in his way as he made his escape. perhaps neither of you meant to act so badly? perhaps you both did things that hurt ds equally? perhaps your either both deep down abusive or perhaps you both just over reacted to stress and made a mistake an ab ad judgement call. at anyrate, you both acted equally bad and both equally hurt ds.

and don't assuume that there is no remorse just because dh hasn't said anything. you have made threats to take his son away if dh doesn't behave properly. under that kind of threat there is no way I would admit to any wrong doing in your presence. he may feel like anything he says has the possibly of being used against him in court when that custody battle comes up. he probably also may feel like any apology that is forthcoming will either not be good enough or not be acceptable. and would it be? he certainly didn't have a chance to apologize that night to ds. maybe he feels like it is too late. after all ds is 4. and not everyone feels an apology in a situation like that is nessecary. if my kids push me until i lose it I don't nessecarily feel the need to apologize to them. that doesn't mean he doesn't feel bad about doing it. it just means he isn't going to give you one more thing to judge him over and wether or not his way of feeling remorse is good enough and appropriate. Do you feel remorse about the things you said? have you said you were sorry for the horrible things you said? have you told ds you were sorry for dragging him through al that?

If you didn't like the way son was behaving (and I hope that is not normal acceptable, "just ignore it" behavior) you either should have dropped what you were doing to deal with or ask dh to deal with it. and let him. without judging how he did it, without nit picking, without even offering suggestions on he could have done it better or done it your way. perhaps a few ground rules (one or two like no hitting and no yelling) but how he disciplines after that should be up to him. I don't think a united front is so much nessecary as in you both have to do it the same way. but you also have to agree to let each other do it your way and once a parent has started the other supports. no telling ds that dads way is stupid or that dad is mean. he will form his own opinions. and that too is between your son and your dh.


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

I agree


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## Emilie (Dec 23, 2003)

that is what i meant by talk to dh- i meant talk with him!


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
He couldn't take anymore chaos, pushed your ds out of the way (again, unacceptable but probably didn't intend to knock him over, just ohysically move him),

The OP said her H grabbed DS by both of his arms and shoved him down... without being there, it really does not seem possible that he was just trying to leave and accidentally knocked him down.

Quote:

and instantly had you (with ds in your arms - totally unacceptable) yelling and ranting about how evil he is, how you will leave how he isn't good enough, refusing to listen to him (so why apologize anyway. would you have even believed him? you had already pegged him as a child abuser) and then you leave. one more way to control things. and then in the morning he still wasn't doing and saying exactly what you wanted. so he is still bad. let him and ds work out thier own relationship. maybe if he hadn't been so scraed or felt so incapable or unallowed to take control of the situation in the first place it wouldn't have escelated thus. I would be hesitant to jump in to a parenting situation where my husband felt he had al the answers and new better than me. why not just let him handle it if he knows all thier is to know about how these things are done and my way is never good enough? and then when he didn't handle it it would upset me. because afterall if his way worked so well wouldn't our child be better behaved? your husbands reaction sounds very predictable to me. it sounds like everything was set up for failure as a previous poster mentioned because there doesn't seem to be any proactive plan for discipline just a long list of what you won't do.

Quote:

perhaps people are overlooking i tbecuase what she said was at least as abusive as what she said if not worse. I think you both acted terribly and owe each other an apology. further more she dragged her son into the middle of it. physically put him in the middle? why. to show dh the damage he did? to show ds how much dh offended mommy? to make sure son knew who the better parent was? what do you think would have been a better thing to do in that situation? did you need to chase dh? was scolding dh really more important than attending to ds's needs?
Maybe we can all review... when one partner becomes abusive, what is the proper etiquette and response to violence?

And if one partner feels they aren't being given a voice in the discipline... hey, maybe they could talk to their partners about it. Have discussions about it. Come to an agreement. Instead of letting his frustration escalate to violence. If, indeed, a feeling of impotence was what led to this, which is somewhat speculative.

Quote:

If you didn't like the way son was behaving (and I hope that is not normal acceptable, "just ignore it" behavior) you either should have dropped what you were doing to deal with or ask dh to deal with it. and let him. without judging how he did it, without nit picking, without even offering suggestions on he could have done it better or done it your way.
But she did... and he knocked her son down. I think that's kind of the whole problem. What is going to happen when mom isn't there to ref?


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## cinnamonamon (May 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
this is what I keep seeing and it bothers me (not just from the person who quoted) but everyone saying "talk to your husband and tell him how to parent right. whip him into shape." why not instead just ask him how he feels ds should be parented, what is acceptable or not to him in terms of behavior, teaching right behaviors and teaching discipline to that end. i seriously doubt he feels like he has any say in any of this.

Why? Because my dh would choose to draw soley on his upbringing -- if his child was hitting or pinching him, he would be hit/spanked back. He has said (out of ds's hearing but as if he was there) "you're lucky your mom's in charge & has more patience because I'd be whippin' butts! I'm sick of this." DH is more than welcome to have an opinion in how we jointly parent -- but it must be an educated opinion. Same with vaxing, extended bfing, cosleeping, circumcision, etc. When it comes to himself he can make all the choices 100% -- pop tarts & coke for breakfast -- have at it. Feeding it to our kids -- not a chance -- and don't eat it in front of them, either.

As I said before, our children aren't as much of a challenge (right now







) so this isn't a big issue for us. Strictly from the OP's posts, it sounds (from my point of view) like the problem this is stemming from. Certainly if there is a pattern of abuse (physical or verbal) my opinion would change drastically -- but from the OP I would say this is the first time it has become physical in any way. If THAT is true, then the note about no violence in the home may have been a constant reminder to dh about how his wife didn't trust him & was just waiting for him to blow. Total conjecture on my part...but if it's true I would draw a line between that & the teenager who is constantly accused of lying to his parents, so eventually he begins to, kwim?

In any case, I hope we haven't scared OP away with our picking apart of her situation...


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *arlecchina*
was the OP perfectly right to leave when hubby was shut up in his room? I dont -think- so, as he'd already removed himself....but I think she panicked and felt she had to get away.

I think, additionally, that was her way of ensuring that she wasn't enabling and "normalizing" the behavior, if that makes sense.

To normalize it, as seems to happen a lot in abusive situations, she would probably either ignore it, or deal with comforting her son and then not really talk to H about it.

I would guess that this was her way of ensuring that there was no way she was going to let H think that it was acceptable or to normalize/enable in any way.

That's just my speculation though.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

But she did... and he knocked her son down.
*Their* son. He knocked down their son.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Hi there.

We don't have children yet; I like to put that out there as a disclaimer in case anything I say sounds totally inexperienced when it comes to children.

** However, I am NOT inexperienced when it comes to husbands. **

I'll just give you my gut reaction to your first post, I haven't read much of the others and I haven't read any of the responses.

Based on your post, I think you over-reacted.

It was getting late in the evening, everyone was probably hungry, tired, etc, your little man was being irritating from the sounds of it and your big man did the WRONG thing by shoving him away from him after being pinched and hit for the umpteenth time - (though I'm assuming that it wasn't that hard if he landed on his bum?) - and then you screamed at him through a closed door that you wanted to be a single mother, while holding your child in your arms.... THAT escalates things and makes them worse.

That turns it into you and son against your husband and the father of your child, INFRONT of your son. That's shaming and embarrassing to your husband.

You escalated things further by leaving the house and then leaving town.

Given the situation, that DOES sound melodramatic.

Now, I understand that your mother-bear instinct kicked in and you got defensive of your little man and most likely reacted without thinking, scooping him up and yelling and leaving, you most likely reacted with strong emotion, especially if you were abused as a child, and I think you mentioned that, not sure.

You were probably hungry and tired as well. I do understand WHY and HOW you could have reacted that way, and I do believe that your husband did the wrong thing.

HOWEVER, if I had been your husband I probably would have felt angry at the child, and much more so at myself, I would have felt ashamed and ran to the bathroom to hide for a minute and to put some space between myself and the child and to cool down and to try and reset myself.

THAT is when I would have heard the mother of my child threaten to LEAVE me and take my child away from me (while calling him HERS alone).... at a moment when I already felt ashamed and angry, and when I was still reeling with anger and guilt.

Now, depending on the kind of person I am, I could take that two ways:

If I were someone who could be instantly calm and control the situation, I could open the door and say I was sorry right away to my child and my wife...

or I could have felt ultra-wounded and angry that you were grinding your heel into my mistake, especially infront of my son, making him fear me more than he already did at the moment and driving some distance between me and my son... and my wife.

Then I would have heard you leave the house.

And then not come back for...... an hour? More?

In that amount of time, the shame would have easily turned into anger at you for extending the pain (from his point of veiw) and issue much more than it needed to be. Thus, when you came home and were still livid at him and totally unapologetic for leaving the house and threatening to divorce him, he acted like an angry person, flipping the bird, calling you bipolar, etc.

Now, I am NOT saying that what he did, shoving his small child, and calling you names after you got back, was right.

I am NOT saying that you were wrong for getting upset.

Those are a given, for me.

BUT, I do think that you made matters worse by reacting the way you did.

Unless he has been hitting and yelling or abusing substances or you and your son in the past, I think it would be a crime to break up your family over this and ruin your marriage.

If this is an isolated incident in an otherwise pretty peaceful and pretty happy home, then TREAT IT LIKE ONE.

If I were you, I would apologize to him for over-reacting and for doing so in front of your son.

THEN, after some time to think and consider, of course, I would expect an apology from HIM for pushing your mutual son and for saying mean things afterwards, (flipping the bird, calling you bipolar, etc.)

People over-react and get angry... in this case, I think you BOTH did that.

I hope you are able to work things out for your family... TOGETHER.

Trin.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." —Margaret Mead


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## Red (Feb 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cinnamonamon*
Why? Because my dh would choose to draw soley on his upbringing -- if his child was hitting or pinching him, he would be hit/spanked back. He has said (out of ds's hearing but as if he was there) "you're lucky your mom's in charge & has more patience because I'd be whippin' butts! I'm sick of this." DH is more than welcome to have an opinion in how we jointly parent -- but it must be an educated opinion. Same with vaxing, extended bfing, cosleeping, circumcision, etc. When it comes to himself he can make all the choices 100% -- pop tarts & coke for breakfast -- have at it. Feeding it to our kids -- not a chance -- and don't eat it in front of them, either.



ITA


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## moma justice (Aug 16, 2003)

i just had to put in my 2 cents too....
coming from an abusive home where my mom ALWAYS had to ref between her kids and her dh (my dad) in order to keep us at all safe....more than ref she had to down right beg him not to beat us up and then also prevent the violence by never lettin gmy dad guess that we had ever done anything wrong,
you can imagine how much nuaghty stuff we got away with (esp in highschool) b/c my mom did not want our dad to KILL us over it.

now i also have been thru a very simular situations with my dh as the OP is talking about.
i too feel like i am the expert on parenting and dh should ALWAYS just do it my way and follow my lead and stop doing or saying something to our dc if i say "tath is not he way you should do it"
granted i did give birth to her
granted i am a professional teacher with yrs of child development under my belt
granted i do spend more time with her than him and more time THINKING about parenting practices and polocies..
that is why most of the time dh does let me call a lot of the shots with how we decide to raise her adn react to her.

but i am also SO very guilty of jumping in between them and trying to tell dh how ot do it in front of her.

he is constantly feeling "undermined, unsupported, and disrespected" (his words) by this.

the truth is that we are not always going to agree on how to do everything when it comes to our kids
and b/c we both LOVE her so much, the stakes are very high (even for seemingly simple problems)
we both had such f'ed up child hoods we would stop at nothing to insure that our child never had to have anyone make "mistakes" that "hurt" her (emotionaly, spiritualy, physicaly etc)

my dh is a total germ freak, he thinks i endanger her health by letting her put her mouth on random things....i think that he is passing on his fear issues and limiting her natural desire to explore her world by always saying "don't do this" and "don't do that"

now i know that example is not as emotional as the shoving one of the OP
but i also know that my dh and i have set ourselves up for those very same situations many times (too many!!!!)
where dad feels powerless and mom feel hyper concerned.

it is so hard to pick it all out: is it really a mom vs dad issue or is it a right vs wrong issue.....

and i do know (coming from such a dangerous violent home) that i am known to FREAK OUT and threaten to leave.....in order to feel safe and in control

OP, when as a child you are a helpless victim to an adults real rage and abuse....then as an adult and parent you need to feel like NOW YOU CAN MAKE THE CHOICE to leave....you are not stuck...

and that is true, you can leave and you can try and take ds with you.

but you have to decide if it is worth it.
and only you can.

i personaly (even after some very nasty fights with my dh)
decided that
1 we are both imperfect but we both overall want to try our best
2 we both love our dd more than any one else ever will and she is each of our #1 priority (we would not share that in common with another person if we did leave the relationship to find a partner who did not piss us off the way we were pissing each other off)
3 it is better (for us) to try to work it out honestly even in front of dd (when we start to go down a bad road of communication i can look at her and say, "mommy feels sad that we are talking rude to each other, we are still learning how to be nice"

i hope that helps
all i know is that it is very hard to raise kids in a gd ap household, our culture does not support it for mom, dad, or child
it is even HARDER MUCH MUCH MUCH HARDER to overcome and heal being abused by your dad while living and parenting with your child's dad (who, by nature will not be perfect....and probably will sometimes be straight up wrong...but so will you)


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I haven't read the replies but this:

Quote:

Well, we come in and here's DH sitting on the couch, playing his guitar, acting like it was all fine and dandy. He was unapologetic to DS and myself, AND he tried to act like I somehow did something wrong. He was doing lowbrow stuff like giving me the finger, telling me I was "bipolar" and even threatening me with a custody situation where HE would get DS as I was "crazy".
worries me a lot more than the shoving. I mean, the shoving was wrong, and I would have lost it if dh had done that to ds. But I admit in the heat of anger I have grabbed ds a little too hard, or thrown him on the bed. Not my proudest parenting moments, but there you have it. So I can eventually get past a parent losing their cool.

But doing such blatantly disrespectful things as giving you the finger and threatending custody battles? That signals a whole other set of problems that has nothing to do with your ds. I suggest marriage counseling ASAP.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

Lilyka, I appreciate that you edited your post. That was really really distressing for me, and I've been trying to figure out how to PM you about it. Thankyou.

OP, I'm still thinking of you.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamajama*
If my kid's dad pushed him down, he would be MY kid. Sperm or no sperm.

Well, no, he really wouldn't.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
The OP said her H grabbed DS by both of his arms and shoved him down... without being there, it really does not seem possible that he was just trying to leave and accidentally knocked him down.

Really? Because that's what I envisioned when I read the OP.

IF a child is coming at you (repeatedly) and pinching, I can totally see how this would happen:

Child charges at dad with arms raised and grabs dad about to pinch.

Dad reaches out to fend off another pinching attack (play it out in your mind). This would mean he grabs both of child's arms

Dad moves child's arms away, throwing child off balance and knocking him down.

This could easily look like shoving. It was not clear to me reading the OP that this isn't what happened.

I really though the OP' getting in the middle between ds and dh was completely inappropriate and that she overreacted to what happened.

If my child had been charging me ready to pinch and grabbed me and I took his arms in mine and moved them away resulting in my child falling down I would feel bad that my efforts to stop the attack did not go better

BUT if my spouse accused me of doing something horrible I would be really pissed.

It seems like the OP is in the middle of something disfunctional. The whole family needs help.

Her reaction to the idea of giving up the family dinner time seemed really a sign that she wasn't able to process the best decision. No one is a bigger believer in the family dinner than me. But its not working for them and seems to be causing HUGE problems. For her to reject outright the idea of giving up on it seems like she is unable to weigh the pros and cons but rather is "stuck" in a decision she made. I am not trying to attak her for this, but it is a sign to me she need more help with her decision making.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

I *never* make my dd wait for dinner if she's hungry. Pre-dinner snacking is basically limited to raw fresh veggies I pull out from the fridge and if she's starving I'll heat up leftovers. I just expect her to come to the table and sit with us for a few minutes atleast when we do eat dinner. I think it's pretty harsh to make a kid wait when it's obviously affecting him so much. It ruins the whole point of 'family dinner' i.e. having a good time together and sharing fond memories. When kids are hungry they feel overwhelmed. That's just not fair to make him wait.


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## mamalita (Jun 5, 2003)

So, I finally get on the computer last night (Friday) after about a day and a half of not being to MDC as I had a few other more pressing things going on and thought, whew! (and not necessarily in a good way). I am incredibly greatful to those folks who really GOT what I was trying to express while in a distraught and (understandably) chaotic inner state. So much of what I tried to express was misinterpreted (uh, to say the least). As a previous journalism major, I can only guess my inabilty to communicate accurately/fully was due to my stress level from that night's events.

Then (last night/Friday) I create this whole involved post, explaining point-by-point information that I felt was misinterpreted (ex: in my incredibly small NE United States state, taking DS to the "next town" [to get food for him and get him to a more peaceful atmosphere and to escape the escalating chaos] involved me driving literally less than one mile). Or how DH most definitely DID push DS as well as myself (how can a person block another's path in a bungalow home/flat with an open circular layout and therefore _need_ to be pushed out of the way?) and etc. etc. etc., when guess what??? I lost my entire post. Everything (my internet provider disconnected me yet again).

But you know what?? I think it was kind-of a sign to me. Those that have been abused in the past (whether family-of-origin or previous relationships) got it and others (sadly, well for me at least) did not. For those that gave me such wonderful support in a time of crisis I give a heartfelt thank you and







. For others - who for some reason, grossly misinterpreted or didn't interpret - statements I made (or brought their own personal issues to their responses) well, now I fully understand other posters who have posted on MDC and eventually signed off with (I'm paraphrasing of course) "no thanks on your hurtful responses, I won't be back".

I cannot believe the conjecture based on a few paragraphs in a few posts (from me). Because I was (in my words) "referee-ing" on a particularly bad night, DH is always treated as a child and has no say in our parenting?? Because (again, in my words) DH is more "mainstream" and gets embarrassed more easily by DS' behavior (singing loudly, tooting like a train, screaming from excitement, etc.) suddenly his opinion is disrespected by me and again, he and I have never had parenting discussions and don't agree on how to parent DS (or I believe I know better)?? Because we offer DS alternatives to grabbing or pinching, let him know that it's our right to walk away from someone hurting us,and also remind him EVERY time that hurting people is not okay, we're "allowing" (as inferred by some people's posts) violence from him?? Since I offer DS a hearty snack (which he will sometimes refuse) 45 min. to an hour before mealtime I'm "letting him go hungry"? Because my high needs DS will basically not let me go cook a big meal (and I'm attending to his needs/desire) I'm inflexible about moving dinner time?? Where do people get this stuff from?? In my OP I put that DS often gets irritable around the evening many nights (my few examples were hunger, tiredness, etc. - but these were to name a FEW; guesses on my part since I STILL sometimes don't always know what is going on in my son's head and what will cause him distress). Lots of people jumped on this, but did anyone make note of a mention in a following post of mine that it was also that he struggles with transitions??? No matter how much I prepare him "Dad will be home soon, he'll be so glad to see you", the transition is a big challenge for him. I was thinking of this after I wrote that post and also realized that part of what's going on is also that DS is so happy to see DH and he wants his immediate and full attention and DH sometimes would rather play his guitar/open mail. I think it's a bit understandable that a four year old would feel upet by this (although, I'm NOT condoning any physical expression of this by him).

I could go on and on. But really, people seem to have already made up their minds so I'm not here to change anyone's opinion. Again, thank you to those who were so helpful to me when I felt scared and alone - esp. thanks to Kristi Metz and mamajama - I feel that you both have a great grasp and empathy of those who have ever experienced abuse of any kind - you women are angels. Thank you.

In conclusion, to quote my beautiful DS, "I'm done now".

Added: this is a goofy thing to clarify but we live in a bungalow with all our rooms/usable space on the first floor. Our computer is up here in the attic - but it's not really considered a "usable" space and is not even included in our square footage. I explain this as I said how our house has a circular floor plan, but in previous posts I mentioned being "up here", etc.


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## cinnamonamon (May 2, 2003)

mamalita -- I'm really sorry if you took my post as critical. I (as well as many of the other mamas here) were trying to help. We had only the info in the posts you wrote & drew our assumptions from them. Of course if we have not had a similar childhood to yours we will be "coming from a different place." We can only share what our best guess is & try to offer ideas based on how we interpreted your words (which is colored by our own situations & upbringing). This is human nature. I think that most (if not all) of the mamas here are just trying to help you in the best way they know how.

Perhaps if you are looking soley for support, you may wish to post "support only" in the thread title. This helps many people who aren't looking for criticism or alternate theories, etc. In any case, good luck in your journey with your family.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

I agree that it would be healthy for the entire family to get help.

It also continues to astonish me that there are women here at MDC who will embrace so many manifestations of men behaving badly.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

It also continues to astonish me that there are women here at MDC who will embrace so many manifestations of men behaving badly.
I don't think it's that. Mothers have posted here who have slapped or hit their child in anger. Possibly who shoved past their dh during a heated moment. So, without any other information about this man's history, I have no idea whether to approach this as a one time loss of control, or a pattern that is likely to escalate. The two are not the same and treating one like the other is damaging.

In fact, I just could not visualize clearly what her husband did. Read the OP. It sounded like the child was coming at his father with both arms raised, and the father, in one motion, stood up, put both his own hands on the child's arms, and put the child firmly and swiftly nearby down on the floor. Kind of like forcing him to sit down, breaking the momentum of the child charging towards him.I did not picture him shoving the kid so the child fell backwards and slammed into the floor, at all! But that is just how I pictured it. I also could not tell, at all, if the husband took the wife in his arms and shoved her, or did a "sideways turn" and shoved past her. I couldn't tell, darn it!

I felt very confused and I think others did too. That's all.


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## moma justice (Aug 16, 2003)

just b/c a MDC mom DOES NOT give the advice to: divorce, leave your husband and take the children, go stay in a shelter, refer to the father as only the "sperm donner" etc...for every family argument/drama

DOES NOT mean they (QUOTE of debra baker):
"embrace so many manifestations of men behaving badly."

i certainly do not.

mamalita, i hope that your family finds some peace and mutual undertstanding...adn remembers the love that brought you all together in the first place...

but you need to understand that it is not all so black and white as the way you put it that (QUOTE):
"Those that have been abused in the past (whether family-of-origin or previous relationships) got it and others (sadly, well for me at least) did not. "

i think i made it quite clear that not only did i understand what it was like to grow up with a very abusive father....but that i also understood how that played into my need to feel like i can bolt my dh anytime i get scared...and that also i tend to become very easily upset and irrational when it comes to dealing with intense situations that he may initiate between us.

you do not know how many moms who posted saying that they thought you also hold some fault in the handling of that situation had ever been abused in the past.

personaly i do not consider what your dh did to you or to ds to be outright physical abuse....

if you are not happy in your marriage to this man and you do not think he is a good dad, then think about leaving him...
if you want him to better understand the mistake he made (and your part in it) and reset some mutual personal boundaries...take a little time at your mom's house.

but i do not think that situation alone is reason nough for divorce...ending your marriage and ending your son's family.


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## cinnamonamon (May 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DebraBaker*
It also continues to astonish me that there are women here at MDC who will embrace so many manifestations of men behaving badly.

I take issue with this as well -- I don't think that anyone here is embracing his actions -- I think they are saying they don't absolutely see them as monsterous & a clear sign of an abusor. (Possibly) understanding the reason for the action does not equal approving of it.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I take issue with it too. My father beat me with a belt and a whip and left welts all over. I know what it's like. Look, I am all about making sure this doesn't happen again. But I am still not going to cry "monster" because a father, on one single occasion in 4 years, may have been pushed a child's arms away from him, causing no physical harm or mark on the child at all. Sorry







:

I do hope your family finds peace and resolution on this issue.


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

This type of thing actually happened to me on Friday night. DS was tired and being crazy and getting on my last nerve. I finally grabbed both his arms (not roughly, but definitely firmly) and told him in a not-so-nice voice that he needed to calm the crap down. He fell to the floor of his own accord, and my brother (who was in the room) gasped in a oh-my-god-did-you-PUSH-him way. Well, no I didn't push him, he was mad that he was being restrained and fell down.








It can happend to anyone. I am as committed to GD as I can be, and I've never struck my child in anger, but I won't lie and say that I haven't marginally restrained him and he made it worse by flailing/falling down/whatever.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

: That is pretty much what I pictured with the OP. I think it's what many pictured. I did not picture this man taking both hands and *shoving* the child in a full body slam freefall against the floor.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Taking no position on Mamalita's situation, which seems more complex than the OP could cover, I'd like to comment more generally and say that wow, I had no idea my dh and I were such abusive people.

I have an attack-kid. She's been attacking us since she was around 10 months old. She's always been large for her age, and strong for her size. You don't think a four year old could do damage? Glad you didn't meet dd when she was 18 months old.

She's not a bad kid. She's passionate and has a touch of SID that expresses itself in sensory seeking behaviors. In other words, she has a high pain/touch tolerance and often dishes out quite a beating.

Dh and I are nonviolent people. I cringe anytime I squish an ant. He is one of the calmest people I've ever met. Both of us have pushed dd away from us in the midst of an attack. We've never hurt her doing it, but we have shoved her to the ground to get her off of us. I've squeezed her hands harder than I wanted to while prying them out of my hair. He's shoved her off of him while she's jumping on his testicles.

CHILDREN, EVEN LITTLE CHILDREN, CAN HURT ADULTS.

I don't know how many times I've had bruises or scratches.

We don't punish dd. But [email protected] if I'm going to sit there and be hurt and not get her off of me.

She's a tough girl, tougher than we are. She's never even blinked at being shoved off. Usually she comes right back at you, but by then we've had time to step away and avoid.

Dh and I work hard at our parenting. We're not perfect, but we're so far from abusive that I have to laugh. I have no apologies to make for shoving my kid off of me when she's digging her fingernails into my neck and trying to bite my ear. Not a one.


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## mamalita (Jun 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moma justice*

but you need to understand that it is not all so black and white as the way you put it that (QUOTE):
"Those that have been abused in the past (whether family-of-origin or previous relationships) got it and others (sadly, well for me at least) did not. "

i think i made it quite clear that not only did i understand what it was like to grow up with a very abusive father....but that i also understood how that played into my need to feel like i can bolt my dh anytime i get scared...and that also i tend to become very easily upset and irrational when it comes to dealing with intense situations that he may initiate between us.


I'm sorry, I was referring to only a few (very um, vocal I guess you could say, posters) when I typed the (my) above mentioned quote. I actually really appreciated your post and perspective - and I agree with you to a large extent re: the urge to bolt and or become irrational etc.


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## mamalita (Jun 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moma justice*

if you are not happy in your marriage to this man and you do not think he is a good dad, then think about leaving him...
if you want him to better understand the mistake he made (and your part in it) and reset some mutual personal boundaries...take a little time at your mom's house.

but i do not think that situation alone is reason nough for divorce...ending your marriage and ending your son's family.


I feel that this is excellent advice. Again, thanks for your posts moma justice, I appreciate the sharing/wisdom.


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## Emilie (Dec 23, 2003)

how are things going now mamalita. i have thought o you..... my dh loses his cool with me to- and once pulled a shower rod down on my head! coming from an abusive past i was so scared! Tho I knew the old routine all to well and worried I would do what I did before- STAY. I made it very clear that I considered what he did as abuse- not only to me- but to our children who were in the home. And that I would not tolerate that KIND of fighting- . At all. NO matter what.

He has not done anything of the sort since.

I dont know why I am telling you this- I just do not want you to feel alone.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

I'm glad you're safe, mamalita. I hope somehow you can find your way through this.
If you can, please take what you can use from this thread, and let the ugliness wash over you.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

I'm sorry, I was talking about more than just this thread.

I don't know how much I'm supposed to look at the big picture-vs-specific threads.

I said I thought both parents would likely benefit from some outside help here, I am supportive of mamalita and acknowledge as she has that she isn't perfect, either.

Shoving a child isn't acceptable in any case. And, trust me, I've been in that frustrating place with an especially challenging child.

There has been some situations, elsewhere, where some moms have been accepting of bad behavior; child endangerment, drug abuse, adultery, spousal abuse and it saddened me to see this.


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## elsasmommy (Mar 24, 2005)

r


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

Dh and I are nonviolent people. I cringe anytime I squish an ant. He is one of the calmest people I've ever met. Both of us have pushed dd away from us in the midst of an attack. We've never hurt her doing it, but we have shoved her to the ground to get her off of us. I've squeezed her hands harder than I wanted to while prying them out of my hair. He's shoved her off of him while she's jumping on his testicles.
I think people who have said it's never acceptable to "shove" are picturing a parent as an aggressor, shoving a child as an expression of rage or intimidation.

I really HOPE that parents here could see the difference in your description. Ds went through a very aggressive phase between 2 and 3 and he was strong. Sometimes I put my arms out to break his momentum as he came swinging towards me and I'm sure he tumbled over, fell, cried etc. I mean what for goodness sake else should be done? If we were outside on a grassy surface I could just sidestep him like a bullfighter and he went crashing to the ground behind me. Seems pretty cruel to do that on concrete or with my back to a coffee table! And it's not possible to "bear hug restrain" someone running at you from the front, because you now have the child's mouth pressed firmly against your shoulder, which meant a nice fat bitemark!

Most kids go in one direction when momentum like that is interrupted...down to the floor. They are much closer to the ground than we are, and I wasn't at all surprised the OP's child went straight down when his father broke the momentum of the attack like that. I just thought "Yep" and was actually impressed his father did not at any point (in 4 years!) spank or hit his son in anger, which most fathers *would* have done with a child that age repeatedly hurting them.


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## moma justice (Aug 16, 2003)

momalita, i am so gald that i was able to be of some support to you.
trust me..i feel like a lunatic in my mothering sometimes (and in my marriage often)

the coolest thing about getting family counseling is that even if it does not change anyone...it sets the message to everyone involved that :
there IS an issue that we are all working on....actively taking a step.
that right there WILL help brake cycles of abuse between the generations.

and that is huge...

my father actually tried to kill me more than once...
i hvae lived thru crazy violence from his hands.

i still love him
we have a pretty decent relationship.....and i am commited to continuing to work on it with him for the rest of his life...that is how i can heal/learn/more forward.

and the only way i am able to do that with him is b/c i think of his father and the fathering that my dad received...

it makes my dad look like a loving kind father (Which he actually was sometimes)

he did not hate me
he was sick
and completely trapped in his own head trying to rid himself of the hurt that his dad gave him.

i don't want to do that to my kid.
but, honestly, i know i do.
when i make a mistake b/c i am reliving some kind of ignored childhood pain...i do not make my best AP parenting choices...
now me at my WORST is still better than most parents on a reg day and some parents on a good day.
i am a good momma
i come here often as a way to REWRITE my brain functioning so that i do not revert to old primal behaviors or relive old crazy hurts and fears when i get "stuck" with dh or dd.
(still happens some but i try)

and all i can hope, is that when my dd experiences trama that is my fault (and/or dh's fault) that she will someday be able to forgive me b/c
1 i love her
2 i tried
3 i am so much better than my dad and it has been a HUGE growth for me to be so (and it is for her, me trying, b/c i love her)


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## AngieB (Oct 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elsasmommy*
OP, I'm sorry you don't like what some of us said, but we all have our own opinions and you asked for our opinions, not for us to agree with everything you said.

I have been reading the post and did not reply because the other posts stated what I though much better than I could put down into words. However I wanted to second the above quote. The OP asked for help and that is what the others were trying to give.


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## Mrs.CEH3 (Aug 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen*

I have an attack-kid. She's been attacking us since she was around 10 months old. she has a high pain/touch tolerance and often dishes out quite a beating.

I've squeezed her hands...while prying them out of my hair. He's shoved her off of him while she's jumping on his testicles.

Usually she comes right back at you, but by then we've had time to step away and avoid.

I have no apologies to make for shoving my kid off of me when she's digging her fingernails into my neck and trying to bite my ear.

Have you had your daughter screened by your health care provider regarding this behavior? What are you doing to modify her behavior other than fending off the attacks? What is provoking the attacks?

Frankly, this is not in my estimation the behavior of a functioning, healthy family. The three of you must be completely miserable with things as you've described them.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mrs.CEH3*
Have you had your daughter screened by your health care provider regarding this behavior? What are you doing to modify her behavior other than fending off the attacks? What is provoking the attacks?

Frankly, this is not in my estimation the behavior of a functioning, healthy family. The three of you must be completely miserable with things as you've described them.

Thanks for your concern, but we're actually a pretty joyful family, moments of stress aside.

As I mentioned earlier, her attacks are a combination of sensory seeking behaviors combined with normal two year old stuff. We've indeed sought professional advice, and thankfully neither the OT or behaviorist thought we were anything but a functioning happy family. Neither did our ped.

She's not an unhappy kid - she's a kid who does everything to 11. I'm sure its hard to imagine if you're used to more sedate children, but there's nothing "wrong" with her.


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## Mrs.CEH3 (Aug 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen*
Thanks for your concern, but we're actually a pretty joyful family, moments of stress aside.

As I mentioned earlier, her attacks are a combination of sensory seeking behaviors combined with normal two year old stuff. We've indeed sought professional advice, and thankfully neither the OT or behaviorist thought we were anything but a functioning happy family. Neither did our ped.

She's not an unhappy kid - she's a kid who does everything to 11. I'm sure its hard to imagine if you're used to more sedate children, but there's nothing "wrong" with her.

Did I say there was?

So your ped, the OT, and the behaviorist thought that her behavior was in normal limits?


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## moma justice (Aug 16, 2003)

dechen, i was going to say earlier that it sounds like your dd and mine were cut from the same cloth.
i could have written your post word-for-word.

adn for me (as aboved mentioned surviver of child abuse/violence) it is REALLY emotional for me to deal with her physical issues (i hate to even call it violence b/c she such a pure and loving soul and a happy kid)

she also does every thing to the 10th degree and is super charged
lots of sensory issues and very very very smart.....
and strong.

anyway...just had to say "me too"


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## moma justice (Aug 16, 2003)

Mrs CEH3,
you sound a little harsh...and baiting...i noticed that you have only 3 posts here.
are you aware of the mothering.commune user agreements adn posting guidelines?


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mrs.CEH3*
Did I say there was?

So your ped, the OT, and the behaviorist thought that her behavior was in normal limits?

Yup.









- - -

Mama Justice - loveable rascals, aren't they? I go back and forth with the word violence. It feels violent to *me* but I know it isn't violence on her part. Thinking of it as violence is my baggage.

"Well behaved women never make history" and all that.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

Have you had your daughter screened by your health care provider regarding this behavior? What are you doing to modify her behavior other than fending off the attacks? What is provoking the attacks?

Frankly, this is not in my estimation the behavior of a functioning, healthy family. The three of you must be completely miserable with things as you've described them.
3 posts, hmmm

Ds was an "attack" kid from 18 mos to 3 years old. I've read, oh, hundreds of posts by moms at MDC over the last 6 years describing the same thing.

It's a phase many kids go through at that age. Ds was never hit nor did he ever see anyone hit. He was a very happy kid. He completely outgrew this phase. One day he started and one day he stopped. He's 10 and is the most non violent talkative kid you could meet. It's sad to think that anyone would view such a normal phase as clinically abnormal...


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## mamalita (Jun 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Emilie*
how are things going now mamalita. i have thought o you..... my dh loses his cool with me to- and once pulled a shower rod down on my head! coming from an abusive past i was so scared! Tho I knew the old routine all to well and worried I would do what I did before- STAY. I made it very clear that I considered what he did as abuse- not only to me- but to our children who were in the home. And that I would not tolerate that KIND of fighting- . At all. NO matter what.

He has not done anything of the sort since.

I dont know why I am telling you this- I just do not want you to feel alone.

Thanks for asking and for the on-going support. I sent you a PM - as opposed to posting any more information on this thread. Also, thanks for sharing your story.


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## Mrs.CEH3 (Aug 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moma justice*
Mrs CEH3,
you sound a little harsh...and baiting...i noticed that you have only 3 posts here.
are you aware of the mothering.commune user agreements adn posting guidelines?

I am new here, having just discovered the forum today, and yes, I am aware of the guidelines and posting agreements, having just read them. Are you a forum administrator? Have I violated the guidelines and agreements?


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## cinnamonamon (May 2, 2003)

Mrs. CEH3 -- welcome, 1st of all. (In my uneducated opinion) you haven't violated anything, but your post did seem a bit...confrontational? Harsh? When we see a new poster who starts off this way, it can be an indicator of a "troll" (someone here expressly to cause trouble). We've all become a become a bit wary, so you may understand why you were questioned.

I hope you enjoy your time here, learn much, teach much, and make many friends.


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## Mrs.CEH3 (Aug 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cinnamonamon*
Mrs. CEH3 -- welcome, 1st of all. (In my uneducated opinion) you haven't violated anything, but your post did seem a bit...confrontational? Harsh? When we see a new poster who starts off this way, it can be an indicator of a "troll" (someone here expressly to cause trouble). We've all become a become a bit wary, so you may understand why you were questioned.

I hope you enjoy your time here, learn much, teach much, and make many friends.

Thank you for the welcome.

Confrontational and harsh. In all my years of cybercating, that's the first time those words have been applied to my posts. Interesting. Clearly the prevailing ethos is one to which I am unaccustomed.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

Clearly the prevailing ethos is one to which I am unaccustomed.
Probably. Motheringdotcommune is much slower than mainstream society to dismiss the parent in favor of a doctor, as it relates to a small child. This is because many at MDC are making decisions without doctor support already~homebirth, no vax, no circ, child led weaning, no spanking or physical punishment....thus we don't assume a doctor will provide, say, gentle discipline advice for the mother. He may tell her the child needs strict punishment, time outs, and nobody here would expect her to enforce that.


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## Mrs.CEH3 (Aug 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
Probably. Motheringdotcommune is much slower than mainstream society to dismiss the parent in favor of a doctor, as it relates to a small child. This is because many at MDC are making decisions without doctor support already~homebirth, no vax, no circ, child led weaning, no spanking or physical punishment....thus we don't assume a doctor will provide, say, gentle discipline advice for the mother. He may tell her the child needs strict punishment, time outs, and nobody here would expect her to enforce that.

I see. Interesting. Thanks for the recap.


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## cinnamonamon (May 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mrs.CEH3*
Thank you for the welcome.

Confrontational and harsh. In all my years of cybercating, that's the first time those words have been applied to my posts.

I said "a bit" and added a "?" I am saying it could be construed that way. Many people try to be extra nice to others here. As I'm trying to be to you.

However, when a post does seem *a little bit* off, we tend to check the post count (and name to see if that is this person's normal "flavor" or style).

As to whether or not you were a bit harsh or rude...I just reread your post. You state 1. that the family must be miserable, 2. that they are not normal or healthy, 3. that something must be being done to provoke the child (I can see how yes, *something* would cause it, but "provoke" invokes images of baiting or otherwise using negative actions). 4. you ask if the child has been screened by a health care proffessional (heartmama explained why this could be construed as suspicious/unusual quite elequently).

All in all, it isn't a big deal, it was just a question when something seemed *a bit* off. It wasn't meant to spur a huge debate/accusation. If someone had thought you (or anyone else) was over the line, there is a triangle with an exclamation point at the bottom of each post which allows the post to be reported to a board moderator.

In any case, *I* have now gone off on a huge







tangent... From the sounds of the OP, she isn't interested in reading or responding any longer, but I still wish her the best.

And gee I've used the **** a lot in this post!


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## Mrs.CEH3 (Aug 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cinnamonamon*

As to whether or not you were a bit harsh or rude...I just reread your post. You state 1. that the family must be miserable, 2. that they are not normal or healthy, 3. that something must be being done to provoke the child (I can see how yes, *something* would cause it, but "provoke" invokes images of baiting or otherwise using negative actions). 4. you ask if the child has been screened by a health care proffessional (heartmama explained why this could be construed as suspicious/unusual quite elequently).

All in all, it isn't a big deal, it was just a question when something seemed *a bit* off. It wasn't meant to spur a huge debate/accusation. If someone had thought you (or anyone else) was over the line, there is a triangle with an exclamation point at the bottom of each post which allows the post to be reported to a board moderator.

In any case, *I* have now gone off on a huge







tangent... From the sounds of the OP, she isn't interested in reading or responding any longer, but I still wish her the best.

I appreciate your time and your good wishes as well as the clarification. And the parsing begins. Here is my post:

"Have you had your daughter screened by your health care provider regarding this behavior?"

Seeking information, with the intent of providing input and/or suggestions. Which, I thought, was the purpose of the forum.

"What are you doing to modify her behavior other than fending off the attacks? What is provoking the attacks? "

Seeking information again, and using the term "attacks" because that was the term the poster herself used.

"Frankly, this is not *in my estimation* the behavior of a functioning, healthy family."

My opinion only.

"The three of you must be completely miserable with things as you've described them."

An assumption based on the *description* of hairpulling, testicle-jumping, etc. Perhaps I am projecting.

I meant no offense. I feel nothing but empathy for those among us who struggle with the difficulties of childrearing.


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## cinnamonamon (May 2, 2003)

I think I'm gonna like you, Mrs. CEH3!







It's funny how different things jump out at people from a post. Thanks for your explanation. And for the record -- before I had ds2 I would have been a bit







at hearing about a child who was that aggressive...it's amazing how much children's personality, etc. differs with the same upbringing.


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## Mrs.CEH3 (Aug 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cinnamonamon*
I think I'm gonna like you, Mrs. CEH3!







It's funny how different things jump out at people from a post. Thanks for your explanation. And for the record -- before I had ds2 I would have been a bit







at hearing about a child who was that aggressive...it's amazing how much children's personality, etc. differs with the same upbringing.


oh, don't like me. I'm a cranky middle-aged woman with a horrible attitude. (insert smilie emoticon here.)

Having more than one child most assuredly changes the equation in a variety of ways. But do you think the rearing is the same? I don't. The person you were when you had child #1 is a different person than the one you are when you have #2. On the surface, yes, it can be the same family. But oh, so very different once you begin to dig deep.

And #2 was, in my case, verrrrry different from #1. A gap of 14 years will do that, I believe.


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## mimim (Nov 2, 2003)

The few times that my parents struck me out of anger left a MUCH smaller mark on my life than the times when they yelled at each other and belittled each other in front of me. Physical agression is never ok, but neither should verbal agression be.

I'm sorry this was such a traumatic experience for your family, but from the way you describe it in your posts it sounds like a _family_ problem not a personal problem for your DH. I hope you can work it out in the best way for everyone.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mrs.CEH3*
I appreciate your time and your good wishes as well as the clarification. And the parsing begins. Here is my post:

"Have you had your daughter screened by your health care provider regarding this behavior?"

Seeking information, with the intent of providing input and/or suggestions. Which, I thought, was the purpose of the forum.

"What are you doing to modify her behavior other than fending off the attacks? What is provoking the attacks? "

Seeking information again, and using the term "attacks" because that was the term the poster herself used.

"Frankly, this is not *in my estimation* the behavior of a functioning, healthy family."

My opinion only.

"The three of you must be completely miserable with things as you've described them."

An assumption based on the *description* of hairpulling, testicle-jumping, etc. Perhaps I am projecting.

I meant no offense. I feel nothing but empathy for those among us who struggle with the difficulties of childrearing.

I'll accept that you meant no offense, but I was not asking for _help_. You assumed we were a family in distress and offered me your opinion that we weren't a functioning healthy family. Does the fact that it is an opinion make it any less rude that you offered an unsolicited and rather harsh critique of my family? Intent aside, what you said came across as rude and challenging. I can handle it - I've been around the 'net long enough know the territory. If you really do mean well, and don't want to be misunderstood, you might want to reconsider your approach.

Best of luck, and welcome to MDC.


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## Mrs.CEH3 (Aug 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen*
I'll accept that you meant no offense, but I was not asking for _help_. You assumed we were a family in distress and offered me your opinion that we weren't a functioning healthy family. Does the fact that it is an opinion make it any less rude that you offered an unsolicited and rather harsh critique of my family? Intent aside, what you said came across as rude and challenging. I can handle it - I've been around the 'net long enough know the territory. If you really do mean well, and don't want to be misunderstood, you might want to reconsider your approach.

Best of luck, and welcome to MDC.

Oh, never mind. People here are entirely too thin-skinned. Have a nice life.


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