# careful of grandparent's rights bills usurping parental rights



## elus0814

It was suggested I start a new thread so here goes:

There are bills in both Canada and the United States that have come up in the past couple years that would give grandparents the right to ask a judge for visitation with the grandchildren even against the wishes of the parents. There is one bill in Canada, bill #22. Please fight these bills if they come up in your country or state. There is a law in a few states, including Alabama, that gives grandparents the right to ask for visitation if the parents have lost parental rights. It has yet to come up in a court but laws like this have the potential to not only progress to 'right' for grandparents of all children and the grandparents of a child who is adopted to intrude in the lives of the adoptive parents and obtain visitation.

I am very concerned about this for many reasons. I think it would be terrible for a grandparent to be given visitation against the parent's wishes. Parents are in charge of their children, not grandparents. The people who support bills like this often state that 'in this age of single parenting, addictions, job loss, etc. children need their grandparents' and 'children have no say in if they get to see their grandparents'. I know there are many children with wonderful grandparents their parents keep the children away from while the parents are single, unemployed addicts. There are also many, many children (like mine) in stable, two parent homes with steady family incomes where the grandparents have addictions. I know if there was a law like this a grandparent in my family would run right out and ask a judge for visitation since I don't allow my children alone with them and they have always been mad about it. A judge would likely grant them visitation if the law made it possible since they would look good on paper.


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## Climbing Rose

I just wanted to completely agree with you.

There are moms on this board who are fit mothers (if not excellent mothers!) and have been sued here in the U.S.

My own very abusive parents seriously took about three years out of my life, where I lived in constant terror, that they would succeed with these laws and legally kidnap my toddler and baby.

By the grace of God, we are safe but others are not.

A good place to get updates on this (however you feel about them otherwise) is to sign up for HSLDA's free email updates in your state. (Not sure if they do Canada too.) They watch the legislation, and let you know when and how to act.

I know some will say that this doesn't happen in the US since the Supreme Court ruled on Troxille vs. Granville, but the sad truth is- yes it does, and has happened to moms right here at MDC since then. They have been drug into court, spent tens of thousands of dollars on legal fees, been forced for them and their children to be evaluated by strangers, ordered into mediation with the grandparents, the children were forced into mediation with the grandparents *without* the parents present, and all BEFORE the case was even decided. So the parents and children could *win* and still have to go thru all that. ((shudder)) If you 'lose' the grandparents can end up with what a divorced dad usually gets- every other weekend, two weeks in summer, etc.

It is a scary thing to have no control over who has access to your young children *alone.*


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## jimblejamble

Greeeeeat, just what I need, my dad already thinks my son is HIS kid... Ugh.


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## elus0814

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Love*
> 
> I just wanted to completely agree with you.
> 
> There are moms on this board who are fit mothers (if not excellent mothers!) and have been sued here in the U.S.
> 
> My own very abusive parents seriously took about three years out of my life, where I lived in constant terror, that they would succeed with these laws and legally kidnap my toddler and baby.
> 
> By the grace of God, we are safe but others are not.
> 
> A good place to get updates on this (however you feel about them otherwise) is to sign up for HSLDA's free email updates in your state. (Not sure if they do Canada too.) They watch the legislation, and let you know when and how to act.
> 
> I know some will say that this doesn't happen in the US since the Supreme Court ruled on Troxille vs. Granville, but the sad truth is- yes it does, and has happened to moms right here at MDC since then. They have been drug into court, spent tens of thousands of dollars on legal fees, been forced for them and their children to be evaluated by strangers, ordered into mediation with the grandparents, the children were forced into mediation with the grandparents *without* the parents present, and all BEFORE the case was even decided. So the parents and children could *win* and still have to go thru all that. ((shudder)) If you 'lose' the grandparents can end up with what a divorced dad usually gets- every other weekend, two weeks in summer, etc.
> 
> It is a scary thing to have no control over who has access to your young children *alone.*


That's terrible you had to go through something like that. HSLDA is a great website for homeschooling families as well as just about anyone. Some of the stories on there really worry me.


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## Climbing Rose

One reason I have never understood the logic behind grandparents "rights" is-- if you did a half-way decent job raising your own DC, you are NOT going to have to sue to them to be in their lives when they are grown.

On the other hand, if you raised a DC to adulthood and have a relationship with them that is SO awful that you feel the need to sue them in court... I think it speaks for itself that you have made some *serious* mistakes as a parent that you need to mend-- and a lawsuit is clearly only going to add to the drama and pain, not make things better. If you were so lacking as a parent in the first place, your adult child obviously has reasons to keep safe boundaries in their relationship with you, and that goes double for their DC.

You do not have 'rights' to a child you are not parenting, plain and simple.

And if you are parenting a child that is not yours, there are other laws that factor in (things like getting guardianship, etc), and you don't need forced grandparents 'rights' anyway.

It blows my mind- the sense of entitlement some people have to other people's children. You raised yours, you should have done better & now it's someone else's turn.... and they don't want you doing to their DC what you did to them. That's the way life works.

Children are not chattel to be shuttled off here and there, with their lives to be decided by a strange judge... That is why they have parents in the first place.

There are already laws about child abuse, neglect, etc, if children are in actual harms way. But grandparents rights laws just attempt to over-ride a fit, loving parent's right to make choices about the well-being of their own children. It should be up to the parents whether or not to inject things into their child, to homeschool or out-school, to buy raw milk or not, and it should *definitely* up to the parents if they want to send their defenseless children off with certain people or not.

I have been around the block in this area, and from all I have ever seen, the type of grandparents that sue just want more control. Most (if not all) simply can't handle that their DC grew up and they are not in charge of everything anymore. My own parents wanted to sue because they thought it was crazy that DS had to be in a carseat at 2, and that DD-4 months was nursing. They wanted my DC alone so they could be the parents and 'fix' these terrible mistakes DH and I were making. They were crazy abusive (all three ways) and it was a nightmare. But of course, they have money and not everyone knows what goes on behind closed doors at their house.

But really, I have a strong faith in God and He protected us through it all.... I just feel for others who are still vulnerable.


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## sunflower.mama

Haven't practiced family law in a couple years now...but it's my recollection that these bills aren't for use in stable 2 family homes. There needs to be a custody action pending in a divorce type situation. The bar is VERY high in these cases. It's for the odd case where grandparents essentially raise a child and then a parent gets custody and denies the child any contact with those grandparents. The standard is not just that the contact with the grandparents is in the best interests of the child (which is the standard basis for decisions) but that harm would come to the child if denied contact with grandparents. So parents in intact families have NOTHING to fear if their estranged family member files suit.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *elus0814*
> 
> It was suggested I start a new thread so here goes:
> 
> There are bills in both Canada and the United States that have come up in the past couple years that would give grandparents the right to ask a judge for visitation with the grandchildren even against the wishes of the parents. There is one bill in Canada, bill #22. Please fight these bills if they come up in your country or state. There is a law in a few states, including Alabama, that gives grandparents the right to ask for visitation if the parents have lost parental rights. It has yet to come up in a court but laws like this have the potential to not only progress to 'right' for grandparents of all children and the grandparents of a child who is adopted to intrude in the lives of the adoptive parents and obtain visitation.
> 
> I am very concerned about this for many reasons. I think it would be terrible for a grandparent to be given visitation against the parent's wishes. Parents are in charge of their children, not grandparents. The people who support bills like this often state that 'in this age of single parenting, addictions, job loss, etc. children need their grandparents' and 'children have no say in if they get to see their grandparents'. I know there are many children with wonderful grandparents their parents keep the children away from while the parents are single, unemployed addicts. There are also many, many children (like mine) in stable, two parent homes with steady family incomes where the grandparents have addictions. I know if there was a law like this a grandparent in my family would run right out and ask a judge for visitation since I don't allow my children alone with them and they have always been mad about it. A judge would likely grant them visitation if the law made it possible since they would look good on paper.


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## Climbing Rose

sunflower.mama, unfortunately, it's not that simple because the laws vary by each state in the U.S.

It would be great if no intact families could be sued, but that just isn't the case. It is just however each individual state words their law.

Some states allow any family to be sued, no matter what the condition of the family.

At the moment, I think WA state is the only state that is actually truly safe. And a lot of people say FL is really good too.

I wish I hadn't been put in a situation where I needed to know this, but I do- and some states have some pretty bad laws, for everyone.


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## Callimom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *elus0814*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Love*
> 
> I just wanted to completely agree with you.
> 
> There are moms on this board who are fit mothers (if not excellent mothers!) and have been sued here in the U.S.
> 
> My own very abusive parents seriously took about three years out of my life, where I lived in constant terror, that they would succeed with these laws and legally kidnap my toddler and baby.
> 
> By the grace of God, we are safe but others are not.
> 
> A good place to get updates on this (however you feel about them otherwise) is to sign up for HSLDA's free email updates in your state. (Not sure if they do Canada too.) They watch the legislation, and let you know when and how to act.
> 
> I know some will say that this doesn't happen in the US since the Supreme Court ruled on Troxille vs. Granville, but the sad truth is- yes it does, and has happened to moms right here at MDC since then. They have been drug into court, spent tens of thousands of dollars on legal fees, been forced for them and their children to be evaluated by strangers, ordered into mediation with the grandparents, the children were forced into mediation with the grandparents *without* the parents present, and all BEFORE the case was even decided. So the parents and children could *win* and still have to go thru all that. ((shudder)) If you 'lose' the grandparents can end up with what a divorced dad usually gets- every other weekend, two weeks in summer, etc.
> 
> It is a scary thing to have no control over who has access to your young children *alone.*
> 
> 
> 
> That's terrible you had to go through something like that. HSLDA is a great website for homeschooling families as well as just about anyone. Some of the stories on there really worry me.
Click to expand...

Please be careful with this recommendation. HSLDA is a conservative Christian homeschooling activist organization with an agenda and which should not be relied upon as a reliable or unbiased source of information about legal issues, particularly those outside of homeschooling specific issues. As with all things, it is important to do your independent research into issues.

With respect to Bill 22 it is a minor amendment to the Children's Law Reform Act in Ontario which deals with grandparents rights in divorce and custody cases. While it would insert the term grandparents in the legislation it doesn't dramatically change the bill as there are already provisions in it that allow non parents to apply for access or custody and requires the courts to make decisions based on the best interests of the child.

You can read the existing law here and the bill here. This is a private member's bill (meaning that even though the MPP who introduced it is a member of of the government, this isn't a bill that the government places much priority on) and similar bills have been defeated 3 previous times. I don't know what HSLDA is circulating about it but my guess is that it is way overblown.


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## Lisa1970

I think if the grandparents were that great, they would not need to sue. Previously, statistics showed that when grandparents sued, the grandparents were usually the ones with abuse issues or substance abuse issues.

I hope they do not pass any laws giving grandparents rights. At least not while the parents are still around.


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## Lisa1970

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Love*
> 
> sunflower.mama, unfortunately, it's not that simple because the laws vary by each state in the U.S.
> 
> It would be great if no intact families could be sued, but that just isn't the case. It is just however each individual state words their law.
> 
> Some states allow any family to be sued, no matter what the condition of the family.
> 
> At the moment, I think WA state is the only state that is actually truly safe. And a lot of people say FL is really good too.
> 
> I wish I hadn't been put in a situation where I needed to know this, but I do- and some states have some pretty bad laws, for everyone.


Last I checked, Grandparents did not have any rights in Texas either. Years ago, certain grandparents wanted to go around us and just sue for visitation and did not get away with it. Then, MIL tried to get niece from SIL. Courts would not award it (but MIL took off with niece anyway and it took 2 months for SIL and the police to get niece back).


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## philomom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> I think if the grandparents were that great, they would not need to sue. Previously, statistics showed that when grandparents sued, the grandparents were usually the ones with abuse issues or substance abuse issues.
> 
> I hope they do not pass any laws giving grandparents rights. At least not while the parents are still around.


This. Thank you very much!


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## Climbing Rose

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> I think if the grandparents were that great, they would not need to sue. Previously, statistics showed that when grandparents sued, the grandparents were usually the ones with abuse issues or substance abuse issues.
> 
> I hope they do not pass any laws giving grandparents rights. At least not while the parents are still around.


I agree- BUT really, even if something happens to the parents, it many cases it's still not a good idea to force third party visitation. God forbid that something should happen to the fit parent raising the child, but the parent dying would not suddenly cause the grandparent to become a great person with no mental/drug/abuse issues, yk? The parents will/wishes should be respected.

(hope i'm making sense this morning- i'm pregnant and sleepy from taking care of a little one last night! =)


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## AFWife

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> Last I checked, Grandparents did not have any rights in Texas either. Years ago, certain grandparents wanted to go around us and just sue for visitation and did not get away with it. Then, MIL tried to get niece from SIL. Courts would not award it (but MIL took off with niece anyway and it took 2 months for SIL and the police to get niece back).


You're right. The only case where Gparents have rights is if they can prove that not being in the child's life would be detrimental to the child. So, if they were raising said child and suddenly one of the parents wanted to come back in the picture and keep the Gparents away.


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## Ella Enchanted

I am 100% against grandparent rights. Even my own mother-in-law, who has been kept out of her only grandson D's life (her younger son and I are parents of one of her her granddaughters) because his father T (her older son) and his ex S had a messy break-up, disagrees with laws that would give grandparents the right to go to court and demand visitation, which is essentially parenting time. While it sucks that she's been kept out of her grandson's life, she understand how easy it would be for the right to be abused, and she understand that the parents are the ones who should have the sole right to decide. She's also against anything that would enable the court to become involved in ANY family's life. It's enough that there are three parents of kids whose parents are divorced - mom, dad, and a judge - without making it so that EVERY kid has at least 7 "parents" - mom, dad, mom's mom and dad, dad's mom and dad, and the judge - if even one grandparent decides they want more time.


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## Ella Enchanted

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Love*
> 
> One reason I have never understood the logic behind grandparents "rights" is-- if you did a half-way decent job raising your own DC, you are NOT going to have to sue to them to be in their lives when they are grown.
> 
> On the other hand, if you raised a DC to adulthood and have a relationship with them that is SO awful that you feel the need to sue them in court... I think it speaks for itself that you have made some *serious* mistakes as a parent that you need to mend-- and a lawsuit is clearly only going to add to the drama and pain, not make things better. If you were so lacking as a parent in the first place, your adult child obviously has reasons to keep safe boundaries in their relationship with you, and that goes double for their DC.
> 
> You do not have 'rights' to a child you are not parenting, plain and simple.
> 
> And if you are parenting a child that is not yours, there are other laws that factor in (things like getting guardianship, etc), and you don't need forced grandparents 'rights' anyway.
> 
> It blows my mind- the sense of entitlement some people have to other people's children. You raised yours, you should have done better & now it's someone else's turn.... and they don't want you doing to their DC what you did to them. That's the way life works.
> 
> Children are not chattel to be shuttled off here and there, with their lives to be decided by a strange judge... That is why they have parents in the first place.
> 
> There are already laws about child abuse, neglect, etc, if children are in actual harms way. But grandparents rights laws just attempt to over-ride a fit, loving parent's right to make choices about the well-being of their own children. It should be up to the parents whether or not to inject things into their child, to homeschool or out-school, to buy raw milk or not, and it should *definitely* up to the parents if they want to send their defenseless children off with certain people or not.
> 
> I have been around the block in this area, and from all I have ever seen, the type of grandparents that sue just want more control. Most (if not all) simply can't handle that their DC grew up and they are not in charge of everything anymore. My own parents wanted to sue because they thought it was crazy that DS had to be in a carseat at 2, and that DD-4 months was nursing. They wanted my DC alone so they could be the parents and 'fix' these terrible mistakes DH and I were making. They were crazy abusive (all three ways) and it was a nightmare. But of course, they have money and not everyone knows what goes on behind closed doors at their house.
> 
> But really, I have a strong faith in God and He protected us through it all.... I just feel for others who are still vulnerable.


This reminds me of an ex of mine. His former-mother-in-law sued for custody and eventually ended up with it because he could no longer afford the attorney bills, but she could. She wanted to raise her granddaughter (and did such an awful job of raising her own that her own daughter was an absent parent who didn't care where the child in question ended up), and didn't think any sane dad would want to be a single parent. So she sues, and after three YEARS in court, she got custody when he finally had to ask how to end it and was told he could sign away high rights, or he could stop going to hearings and still lose his rights. What's frightening is this happened in a state without grandparent right. I was in court that day, and I've never seen a man so crushed and destroyed.


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## Climbing Rose

That is just heart-breaking.

I think the courts are just way to involved anymore, and the pendulum (sp?) needs to swing the other way.

So often, when the laws go beyond basic things (child abuse, etc) they just turn into micro-management by the government- who has no true vested interest in how your particular child turns out, and definitely has no love for your child.

I think if you make a baby, and are a decent parent, the gov't needs to get out of the way and do what it's supposed to be doing in the first place. I really don't think it was created to micromanage a fit parent's child-raising decisions.

I think all grandparents have the basic ability to see their adult child's children, but it is NOT for a strange judge to grant. You get the "right" by being a good parent, and you lose it by being a poor parent.

I don't know why some people don't understand this.

In my family, one of the single moms had her children removed from the home for the mom not being a stable person in many ways. Then the courts gave guardianship to the mom's parents. I thought that was the dumbest thing ever. I mean, how do they think the mom got to be that way? It was how her parents treated her, and all she knew, and she was just repeating the cycle. How on earth was giving the children to the people that started it going to make the children's life any better?

I think it is the same with grandparents rights. If you messed up, you shouldn't get a court-forced chance to do it another time to another generation.


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## crazyms

I agree these laws shouldn't go through. My in laws threatened to sue us for visitation rights as well as BIL & SIL. They got upset that only one of the 6 total kids (between mil and step fil) would let them see their kids. Um well we had reason considering they are alcoholics, fil beats mil, is mentally ill and was accused by one of his daughters for sexual abuse. I don't see them getting visitation if they tried but the law in general is ridiculous. My father isn't allowed to see our children either because he's a drug addict, abusive and a child molester (undocumented though). Since he has no 'record' of any kind - no criminal record, reports of the sexual abuse, or treatments for the drug addictions - he looks good 'on paper' and it makes me cringe to think that if these laws passed he could try to go after visitation for my kids. It's a definite violation of the parent's rights. From what I can tell (in my state) the grandparents rights cases are only considered in non intact families in cases of divorce or death of one of the parents. I don't think that's right either though because dh and I make a joint decision not to let these people have contact with our children. If he were to die his mother and step father are still just as dangerous as they are while he's alive and the same goes for my father. I don't think it's right that if we were to divorce or one of us die that the grandparents on either side could try to get visitation then like our joint decision before the death or divorce is no longer valid. Definitely an intrusion on parental rights and just one more situation where the government needs to stay out of people's personal lives.


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## InsideOut

I've been searching the boards for information because I am now finding myself in this nightmare. DS father and I have recently split up - he lives in our house that is under my name and DS and I live in my parents house. Ex's mother has advised that she'll be taking me to court for grandparents rights because she "never gets to see the baby".

Ex, DS and I all spent last Sunday with Ex's mother, step-father, brother, and other extended family members. Prior to that, any time Ex's mother wanted to see the baby she was welcomed to our house and we attended all family functions including all holidays since DS has been born with her and their family. She's never asked me to see DS and have me refuse. Essentially, she thinks she is owed one-on-one time with DS without me around and now has Ex on my back about the situation as well.

Ex's mother is a gambling addict, has many health problems including vertigo and obesity which keep her from being able to bend down to pick up DS or walk the stairs while holding DS. In her house lives her partner who is a drug-addict, her mother who has Alzheimer's and requires constant care, her 14 year old son, and a mean German Shepard(sp?) who by her own admission would kill the neighbours' dogs if given the opportunity. She lives 45 minutes away from me (without traffic).

My son is going on 8 months old and still exclusively breast fed. I live in a province in Canada that has a Grandparents' Rights law. Does she have a leg to stand on? What questions do I need to ask when I see a lawyer in terms of keeping her from getting court-ordered visitation? What should I be documenting? Any advice?

As I mentioned, I've never refused access and never planned on it. She doesn't seem to understand that I have a life and DS is the biggest part of it so naturally, he will always be where I am. We can visit her as we would visit any relatives but forcing visitation??? She wants a hand in raising my son and having influence and control over the situation.


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## Climbing Rose

I'm sorry, but we live in the US so I don't have a lot of knowledge of the current Canadian laws.

I can tell you in my circumstance, if my parents had won, we would have left the country before we let them take our children. It was that bad, and I would protect my children however I had to, before I put them in that kind of harm's way. I think the best thing you could do is talk to a lawyer.

I worried a lot needlessly due to empty threats that were just meant to scare and thus gain control, when it turned out we never could have been sued in the first place, in the state we were in at that time. (The laws can change and it can be complicated.)

Whatever is costs to talk to a lawyer is worth the peace of mind, IMO.

Also, I am not a lawyer, but I was told to never sign *anything* saying you agree to visitation (out of fear, etc). Anything a judge orders, you can fight. But if you agree (because you are afraid it will get worse if you don't) it makes it very hard to fight later. Or so I was told.

There was a parent's rights board at www.parentsrights.com that had a message board that I used to go to. You could check it out. I emailed people there and got really good advice.

If your ex wants his mom to have your DC, really why doesn't he just do it on his time anyway? Why do people have to be so sue happy about other people's children? =(

I'm sorry you are going thru that. It sounds really hard!


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## chausjm

I don't think you have anything to worry about if the grandparents are druggies. All you need to do is inform the court and they will be denied access. In cases where the parents are druggies and grandparents are seeking access, it is in the child's best interest. I suppose each case must be judged on its own merit.

Now, Supppose you die in a car accident, your husband remarries and his new wife denys your parents (not druggies) access just because she dosen't want them around.

I signed a petition for Bill 22 because for this particular reason, I was in favor of it. We should be careful in what we wish for because it could backfire. Grandparents today, do not have any legal recourse. Also, children will be placed in foster care rather than being placed with a grandparent if something happens to the parents because grandparents have NO legal standing in court and it is assumed that the children's aid society has your child's best interest at heart and they have legal standing in court and a right to dictate what is best for your child if something happens to the parents.


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## KateDavies45

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Climbing Rose*
> 
> I agree- BUT really, even if something happens to the parents, it many cases it's still not a good idea to force third party visitation. God forbid that something should happen to the fit parent raising the child, but the parent dying would not suddenly cause the grandparent to become a great person with no mental/drug/abuse issues, yk? The parents will/wishes should be respected.
> 
> (hope i'm making sense this morning- i'm pregnant and sleepy from taking care of a little one last night! =)


This is exactly why parents have things like wills in the first place. Both mine and DP specifically state that in the event of our death/etc DD is to go to a very good friend of ours, or another very good friend of ours who were both on board with this. AND specifically says guardianship is not to go to either my parents or IL's as both sets have abuse/addiciton issues. We don't cut them out of our lives because they do love DD very very much and I have no problems letting them have time with her. limited or supervised time. But I would never want them raising her. ever. end of story. and the courts should respect that!


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## crunchy_mommy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KateDavies45*
> 
> This is exactly why parents have things like wills in the first place. Both mine and DP specifically state that in the event of our death/etc DD is to go to a very good friend of ours, or another very good friend of ours who were both on board with this. AND specifically says guardianship is not to go to either my parents or IL's as both sets have abuse/addiciton issues. We don't cut them out of our lives because they do love DD very very much and I have no problems letting them have time with her. limited or supervised time. But I would never want them raising her. ever. end of story. and the courts should respect that!


I hope I'm not derailing this thread too much by asking this (it seems sort of relevant) -- how did you include this in your will? Did you just include a clause that neither set of grandparents should have custody? Did you write it in a separate letter? Did you explain your reasons, or simply state that you don't want DD with them?


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## vtechmom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> I think if the grandparents were that great, they would not need to sue. Previously, statistics showed that when grandparents sued, the grandparents were usually the ones with abuse issues or substance abuse issues.
> 
> I hope they do not pass any laws giving grandparents rights. At least not while the parents are still around.


What about the case of my friend? She was a few years older than me, pregnant at 18, had the baby at 19. She lived with her parents and they basically raised her son while she worked 3 different jobs to make ends meet. The father had nothing to do with the baby after he was born and was a drunk.

A week before my friend turned 20 and her baby turned 1 (he was born a day or two after her birthday) she got into a car accident driving home from work and was killed. The child was given to the father who did not allow the grandparents any visitation. So not only did the grandparents lose their daughter, they also lost their grandson to someone he had never met before and was a drunk without a job. They tried to sue but since there were no rights for grandparents it was years and years until they saw their grandson again.

Having watched the absolute heartache that these people went through I can say that I support some form of grandparents rights, especially in a case of one parent being absent.


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## Climbing Rose

I realize this is an old thread now, but I just saw the last posts and thought I would respond.

There is a saying in law that goes something like "Hard cases make bad law," meaning if you make laws based on the worst, hardest case... it is going to be a bad law for many reasons. (As a parent, it's pretty easy for me to apply that to our house rules and imagine it playing out badly.)

I am sorry that story in the above post happened, and I really am.

But truthfully, as a parent, I do not think my death should legally diminish my child's father's rights as the father of that child.

I think the risk on the other side is too great.

And honestly, I have never, ever heard of that happening (the judge moving the child to a new home) when the judge did not order a very gradual transition. It's not like the child goes from 24/7 in one house to *bam* 24/7 in the other house with the new people. Everything I have ever seen, is done slowly and carefully, over time. I know there could be exceptions, but I have personally not seen any.

All that said, I do think most states have some sort of a 'stand-in parent' law, where if you are not just a third-party, but if you actually lived with and truly parented the child, you can sue for visitation. I see that as a lot different than people being able to sue you for your kids just because you happen to be related somehow, or they knew your kids at some point, etc.


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## philomom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KateDavies45*
> 
> This is exactly why parents have things like wills in the first place. Both mine and DP specifically state that in the event of our death/etc DD is to go to a very good friend of ours, or another very good friend of ours who were both on board with this. AND specifically says guardianship is not to go to either my parents or IL's as both sets have abuse/addiciton issues. We don't cut them out of our lives because they do love DD very very much and I have no problems letting them have time with her. limited or supervised time. But I would never want them raising her. ever. end of story. and the courts should respect that!


Yes, one of the best things you can do as a parent is have a legal will that designates guardianship of your minor children.

I always forget her name but we do have one MDC mom who literally finished growing up in foster care, separated from family and siblings because her parents had not taken this precaution. She's pretty bitter.


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## Lisawethern

My daughters rights were just trampled in court. The judge did't care about any of her arguments. The other grandparents are drunks, yet my daughter still took the kids over there regularly so they could have a relationship with the kids.They were not denied reasonable visits. This wasn't good enough for them they wanted scheduled visits. So now my daughter and her kids have to give up every other Saturday to these people. Even though the father and my daughter are not together any more they are agreeable on not letting the grandparents get court ordered visitation. That didn't matter to the judge. My daughter and her kids no longer have the right to going on vacation without getting permission from the grandparents. They can' just make a plan one Saturday morning to do something they want to do if it happens to be on their Saturday. This is absolutely appalling to me. These people don't contribute to them financially. They don't have the same morals as my daughter. Why should they have court ordered visits. My daughter kept asking the judge what about my rights. his reply " I hear what your saying". but he didn't give her answer as to why her rights were less important than the desires of these people. I am a grandparent, my daughter and her 2 children live with me and my husband and have since they were born. If something happened to my daughter I would need some rights, because I have been a very significant part of their lives, the kids would be very devastated to lose the only home they have ever had and the other two people that have been the stability of their lives. Under those circumstances that makes since to me, but just arbitrarily forcing parents to have to take 2 Saturdays and give them to these people just because they want them is a huge degrade in this country. It is a step on a very slippery slope. Every one needs to take up arms on this. We don't know how to fight this, but this isn't just a fight for my daughter this is a fight for all parents.


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## estierstorfer

I completely agree. I do not want my fiance's parents, his dad an alcoholic and his mother a pain pill popper. Right now we are temporarily living with them and it's a living hell. My oldest son is in 2nd grade and has to deal with music blaring on weekdays until like 2am...because of his "loving and caring" grandfather. We are currently looking for another place to live and hopefully will be out by december. Also someone in my fiance's (whom is the father of my 2 children) called Child Protective Services...it's just a little funny that 4 or 5 days before they came to this house that his father came in our room well the basement...and called us pieces of s**t, hope we fall on our faces when we move out and MOST IMPORTANTLY TOLD US HE WAS GOING TO TAKE OUR CHILDREN FROM US and his wife agreed with him on this matter-AND HE WOULD TELL US WHEN WE COULD HAVE THEM BACK, which is of course NOT the law. But it's sad that good parents have a 60 day case opened on us for allegations from people (their grandparents) or someone they had call for them...would not only put their own son and soon to be daughter-in-law through all this stress but also our boys. That are only 3 and 7 years old. I pray to God they NEVER get visitation rights without our consent because once we move out of here, they will never see our children EVER EVER EVER see them. Not unless they change.


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## estierstorfer

I can't believe that!!! I am so sorry to hear that your daughter and her kids have to deal with that. I honestly did NOT think grandparents had very many rights against the children's own parents. It's ridiculous. I think the system is going down the pipes if you know what I mean.


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## NewBeginning13

Hello everyone. I know this post was made a couple of years ago, but I have a story to share with all of you. I am 35-years old, and I have given birth to 3 children. I was adopted at the age of 2, and I wish I could say my adoption was wonderful. When I had all three of my children I was not a minor. I had every right to be a mother, but my parents felt it necessary to obtain my children in very horrifying ways.

First they kidnapped my daughter, and continued to sue for custody under the Grandparent Act. I just now obtained my daughter back; after 16 years of fighting. So, you think that solved everything? No. They constantly call my child and accuse me of belittling my child. The eerie thing is; they live over 1500 miles from me, so how do they know?

My second child was adopted out to family against my wishes. My parents delivered adoption papers to my job (actually my dad handed them to me through the drive-thru window). I refused to sign them, and gave them to a therapist. I told the therapist I refuse to give up my son. Well, he got adopted out. My parents showed up to my apartment and forced me to sign a second set of papers while I was heavily medicated. I became very depressed after they took my son, so I was on a lot of mind altering medications. I had no business signing papers, and they knew that.

With my daughter, when she was 4 months old I was told if I got my tubes tied I could keep her. I did as they wished, and you know what? I never was allowed to keep my daughter. The same people that adopted my son ended up adopting my daughter. They proceeded to buy me a car, and I am thankful that car was stolen. They literally bought my daughter.

When I tried to tell people the truth about, "It was not my decision to give up my kids" I was told to keep my mouth shut, and the person who has my two little ones (okay they aren't so little anymore) will never know what happened. She is happy and taking very good care of those two.

Who the hell cares about the truth? They have abused their rights, and I have spent 16 years grieving. Yes, I have my 16-year old back (because they were too old to truly take care of her) and the other two are in their teens.

If I could afford a lawyer I would press every single criminal charge I could...


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## kblackstone444

So much can go wrong with Grandparent's Rights, so much can go wrong with not having Grandparent's Rights. What they really need to do is ditch all the Mothers, Fathers, Granparents, Interested Parties' Rights and replace it with CHILDREN'S Rights.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chausjm*
> 
> Now, Supppose you die in a car accident, your husband remarries and his new wife denys your parents (not druggies) access just because she dosen't want them around.


Many years ago, my exhusband's daughter's Mother tried to do something similar when my exhusband was supposed to be (involuntarily) out of the country for several years. She tried to deny my father-in-law and all other family members from my exhusband's side of the family, all of which were very close to my stepdaugther, from having ANY contact with "her" daughter in my exhusband's absense. She was that vindictive. Luckily, my exhusband was able to avoid having to leave the country, so nothing ever came of this.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vtechmom*
> 
> What about the case of my friend? She was a few years older than me, pregnant at 18, had the baby at 19. She lived with her parents and they basically raised her son while she worked 3 different jobs to make ends meet. The father had nothing to do with the baby after he was born and was a drunk.
> 
> A week before my friend turned 20 and her baby turned 1 (he was born a day or two after her birthday) she got into a car accident driving home from work and was killed. The child was given to the father who did not allow the grandparents any visitation. So not only did the grandparents lose their daughter, they also lost their grandson to someone he had never met before and was a drunk without a job. They tried to sue but since there were no rights for grandparents it was years and years until they saw their grandson again.
> 
> Having watched the absolute heartache that these people went through I can say that I support some form of grandparents rights, especially in a case of one parent being absent.


This is a great fear of mine. My youngest son's father is the most violent, abusive, selfish, narcisist being ever to live on the planet. He's in my son's life on occasion, meaning, every 2-3 months, he opts for a supervised visit just so he'll have new pictures of himself playing daddy and giving our son expensive gifts to post on Facebook. But... if, God forbid, anything ever happens to me, he will immediately remove my son from his Grandparents, his Great Grandparents, his older brother (my first son), his Uncles, his Aunts, his cousins, yes, even my fiance (the only Dad he's ever really known) and my fiance's children (who he calls his sisters and brother), and everything he's ever known in his life to go live 350 miles away with his biological father who will have a string of girlfriends raise him. As much as I see certain dangers with Grandparent's Rights, I also wish that I knew my parents would be able to fall back on Grandparent's Rights, if there ever was a need, to keep my son safe from his father and losing everything that was ever important in his life, if anything ever happened to me.


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## NewBeginning13

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AFWife*
> 
> You're right. The only case where Gparents have rights is if they can prove that not being in the child's life would be detrimental to the child. So, if they were raising said child and suddenly one of the parents wanted to come back in the picture and keep the Gparents away.


um... my case took place in Texas. Once I moved to West Virginia I talked to a Prosecution Attorney. She told me that Texas was the worst state that abused Grand parents rights. She told me good luck in getting my kids from my adoptive parents.


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