# How Much Is Too Much Attachment?



## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

My MIL is Indian and there they practice what I consider a somewhat extreme form of attachment parenting. Add to that the fact that she is a grandma and it's been very difficult to deal with her unsupporting attitude towards me and my decisions. Here are some examples of things they do differently:

1. They spoonfeed the baby for as long as possible; this means they are shocked that my two-year-old son feeds himself about half of the time. They would spoonfeed their children well into late childhood and even adolescence.

2. They basically give in to whatever DS wants and never say no or set boundaries. For example, if my son asks for ice cream when I have just served him eggs, I will tell him "no" very clearly, but they will repeat it back to him and ask him if he wants ice cream a few times so that he can convince them that he should have ice cream.

3. They feel like he should never cry. My son rarely cries much, but today after trying everything to get him to fall asleep, I left him in his crib and he cried for 5-10 minutes before he went to sleep. I am pregnant and it will be impossible for me to put him to sleep like an infant for very much longer, so I am trying to gently and slowly get him to fall asleep alone and he has not really had a problem with it unless he gets way over tired. He was so exhausted that his nervous system had a hard time calming down; in this case I felt that crying was the only way to get over it and calm down.

My inlaws coslept with their children until they were teenagers and this also forced them to sleep away from each other, one with each child, throughout their children's childhoods. While my husband and I sleep separately now for similar reasons, we are planning to slowly sleep train our son into being able to sleep on his own, especially now that another baby is due.

Basically the issue I have with this form of parenting is that the children don't seem to learn any boundaries or independence at all. In an ideal world, I would like to be able to raise my son like this, but I think (and have seen) that it creates problems in relationships after childhood with people other than ones parents. My husband is still too attached to his parents in my opinion. In fact he is in their bed with them right now watching TV. This is absolutely normal in India! I do not want my son behaving like this, not because I wouldn't love to keep him as a baby forever and ever, but I don't think it's good for his development!

What do you think?


----------



## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

I think all of it sounds weird and possibly more than I would want to do except for the part about not letting babies cry. We can't keep our babies from ever crying, but we can choose to never leave them alone when they cry. So I always stayed with my kids and patted their backs while they cried out their last bit of energy (after nursing and rocking and walking and bouncing and laying down together...) SO I agree with them on that part. As for the rest, I guess it won't be wrong to say that another culture's way of doing something isn't right, but for me, I thought it was cool beans when my infant son had the dexterity to scoop cous cous out of a bowl with a spoon and get it all in his mouth! Left my hand free to stuff my own face!


----------



## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *blessedwithboys*
> 
> I think all of it sounds weird and possibly more than I would want to do except for the part about not letting babies cry. We can't keep our babies from ever crying, but we can choose to never leave them alone when they cry. So I always stayed with my kids and patted their backs while they cried out their last bit of energy (after nursing and rocking and walking and bouncing and laying down together...) SO I agree with them on that part. As for the rest, I guess it won't be wrong to say that another culture's way of doing something isn't right, but for me, I thought it was cool beans when my infant son had the dexterity to scoop cous cous out of a bowl with a spoon and get it all in his mouth! Left my hand free to stuff my own face!


I agree with this. The feeding and the no limits are not things I would choose to do. But we are always present for our children when they're crying and, so far, we've always stayed with them to go to sleep (ages 3yrs and 8months respectively). So I don't consider that strange or over the top.

ETA -.i still lie on my parents bed occasionally as well


----------



## earthmama4 (Oct 13, 2008)

Our American culture values independence, and the value runs deep in our consciousness of what is "normal", even in AP circles. We all have our boundaries and they vary based on how we were raised. I learned working with a diverse population in our school district to be tolerant of the many cultures around the world that value "interdepedence". Its very outside our norm, but there are advantages. Interdependent cultures do not have the rates of anxiety and depression that we Americans have as a result of our social isolation. In interdependent cultures, a young mother would never be left alone to fend for herself after having a baby (after the American version of help consisting of maybe her DH taking a week off, and others making a few meals). She would be surrounded by her own mother or mother-in-law would would care for her, help her with the cultural traditions of caring and feeding her child. PPD is almost unheard of, and that doesn't surprise me.

In our culture, each generation is seen as improving on the last, and we tend to look at how our parents did/do things with distain. In interpendent cultures, passing on cultural traditions and being supportive of your children at every stage is what is expected. There is no time when you "cut the ties" so to speak. Its very hard to understand and respect that view when we have been raised to expect autonomy after we reach a certain stage of life (adulthood, marriage, etc). I briefly dated a young man from India following my divorce. When I shared that I divorced my XH because of abuse, it was difficult for him to understand that no one in mine or his family intervened. That they "allowed" it to happen. He couldn't understand that in our culture, what goes on between husband and wife is private and that extended families really don't like to get involved. In India, he said, my parents and his parents would have met and discussed the issue, then brought him in and told him "This cannot continue!" and kept a close watch on the whole situation. Maybe we would have moved in with my parents so that they could help us. Honestly, the idea of that seemed so comforting! Instead, in our independent American culture my children and I suffered alone.

I remember teaching a summer program and some of our Asian and Latino parents would join their children for lunch. A large majority of them began spoon feeding their children as soon as they arrived. Their children were perfectly capable of feeding themselves as well as they had demonstrated on occasions where their parents were not present. It bugged some of the other teachers to no end, but I wasn't fazed. Maybe it was the anthropology classes in college (I love anthropology!) that allowed me to see it for what it was - a cultural difference based on a different set of values. It was important for these parents that their children relied on them. They wanted their children to learn and go to school, etc, but they had their traditions that allowed them to feel connected with their children. Its really no different IMO than a working mom who breastfeeds and co-sleeps at night to maintain that connection with her child, beyond the requisite 12 month mark! There are plenty of people in our culture who think that is extreme.

I found this article by an early childhood teacher who works with diverse populations and I think its a good overview of what I am talking about.

http://www.childcareexchange.com/library/5011761.pdf

Also there is a book called "Hold On To Your Kids" that I first heard about here on MDC. Its written by an psychologist who feels that our push for early independence and the resulting disconnection from parents leads to all sort of behavioral and discipline issues for our children, who quickly become "peer-centered" and lose their innate sense to look to their parents for guidance and direction. He doesn't advocate spoon feeding past infancy or anything, this is a very American book. But the overall idea of the advantages of having an interdependent relationship with our children may help you be more tolerant of your in-laws cultural differences in how they related to your DH and your children.


----------



## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Earthmama,

I am quite aware of the parenting styles you are talking about. That is partly why I married my husband; I love many things about his culture. However, I don't think his way of being raised has produced the most confident version of himself. He has issues. I also have issues being overly isolated. I try to identify who's issues are who's, and approach parenting in a balanced and thoughtful way. I'm not looking to submerge myself in his culture; I have lived in India and thought very deeply about the values there that are lacking where I come from. I have been way down that road and back.

Ultimately, how we raise our children should best prepare them for coping with, and finding happiness in, the world in which they ultimately find themselves as adults. There is a reason Indian children growing up in the usa have a higher rate of suicide, despite their perceived lack of isolation.

I was being more specific about my own situation to gain insight from mamas who are familiar with western AP and the western perspective of AP.

I am not interested in being like my husband's parents. Right now I need support, and they are not helping me by imposing their own style without consideration for my own. It is they who need to be reading up. Not me. I have invested very heavily in understanding them, they have no interest in understanding my culture. Their level of attachment and sense of duty and protocol does not encourage scratching the surface of any topics, nor in understanding the depths of pretty much anything that doesn't help them or their family financially. They have no clue how to open their minds, consider the other side, branch out, take risks. This is a limitation of the culture that takes longer to recognize than the merits of their social styles.

I do a great number of AP related activities with my son, however, we are not all in the position to follow this philosphy 100%, and if I had not allowed my son to be alone for a few minutes to fall asleep he would have not slept, and his exhaustion would have continued. After two hours of trying to get him to take a nap, I realized it was my very presence that was preventing his sleep.

I am sorry if my defensiveness is coming out, but I do appreciate your interesting reply, have made most of the same observations, but have come to learn that just because people are near each other and up in each others' business does not necessarily mean they are better connected. Sometimes I think it is best to let go for a second and have our children find their way a little bit.


----------



## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

Everyone has their own limits of attachment, but my girls (8 and 6yo) just chose to move into their "own" beds (two twin futons placed next to my queen) and I still crawl into bed with them if, say, dd2 is tossing and turning and throwing her covers off every 30 minutes. As for the other things, I never did things purposefully to cultivate independence, I did them because my kids expressed interest in being in control of the process. So, no early demands for independence, no insistence that they stay dependent (beyond "hold hands in the parking lot" etc.) I also didn't leave them crying for more than a couple minutes. (My nerves go all to pieces, even hearing other kids cry, even when their mom's aren't letting them CIO. Pick them up so my brain doesn't explode....ACK!!!!).

So, too much attachment? It's possible, of course. Our modern culture calls it "co-dependent" and I don't think it's a positive term, but then we have odd, disjointed feelings about independence in our culture, I don't even trust what I think is "supposed to" be the right balance. I'm going on my gut, and I could be sooooooo wrong about what I'm doing with my own kids.

IL's cultivating "too much" attachment (dysfunctional attachment)? Not much different from other grandparents who bends rules and spoil the grandkids, just with the added cultural context. As long as my MIL doesn't wantonly defy my rules in my presence (right after I've said "no ice cream, for example"), I'm not too worried. I suppose even that can go overboard-- the spoiling and doing things differently from mom-- but I guess what I mean is that if it isn't creating trouble when my girls get back with us, I'm OK with it, in general anyway.


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

I think there is a big difference between being available to our offspring when they need us, and completely smothering them. I think mainstream parenting in the US leans too far in the direction of not being fully available to our children, especially when they are very young, but that what you describe as Indian parenting goes to far the other way -- of not letting children do things for themselves when they are ready. I think too far in either direction isn't helpful to a child, that children are best off when we find that sweet spot in the middle.

While crying isn't a great thing, to me it seems unrealistic to say that a child should never cry. One of my DD's was very high need, and at times all I could do was hold her while she cried. Nothing soothed her, but I stayed with her and stayed calm. The notion that while I was doing so much and giving so with little sleep wasn't good enough because she still cried would have sent me around the bend. She was just a crier. And I just stayed with her and loved her until she outgrew it.

I think sometimes, with some toddlers, they cry less if the parent just lets them get it out of their system.









This is a link to an article you might enjoy:

http://www.continuum-concept.org/reading/whosInControl.html

The author of the article also wrote a book called "The Continuum Concept" that is about how AP is practiced in another, very different culture. You can be AP and be child centered (like your inlaws) or you can be AP and not be child centered. I'm somewhere in between in a spot that feels comfy to me and seems to work for my kids, but reading about the more extreme ends helped me find my own center.

On a practical note, how much time do you spend with your inlaws? Do you all live together or very close? Could you spend less time with them?

A phrase I found helpful with my own parents when they wanted to debate my parenting decisions was "I can see how you would feel that way, but none the less, this is what I've decided to do." I just kept repeating it to whatever they said until they figured out that I wasn't going to have that conversation with them. I was never going to convince them of anything, so I didn't see the point of continuing trying to explain.

Could your husband tell them to knock it off? Sometimes in marriages, it is helpful if the person related by blood sets boundaries. Or did the way his parents raise him make it impossible for him to set boundaries with his parents?


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I don't think there is such a thing as too much attachment. I think the "attachment" in AP was meant to be the kind of healthy psychological attachment that happens in normal, attentive families of nearly all parenting styles. I believe the reason we have an AP style of parenting is that we've had weird parenting advice in the US for about 150 years, and a lot of families continue intentionally to undertake unhealthy behaviors that they think will be good for their children.

What's too much is what is uncomfortable for you. Families have to meet the needs of all members, not only the children and not only the parents (or one parent!) This is especially true around sleep. If your child is sleeping well and is happy, and you are getting the best possible night's sleep, you're golden. In one of my favorite parenting books, Becoming the Parent You Want to Be, the authors described a lot of different sleep styles and took the position that you should just do the one that works for your family. When I was trying to decide how to deal with baby sleep, I found this frustrating, but right now I think it's sensible.

I certainly know people who thought they'd co-sleep and found themselves up all night worrying about rolling over on the baby, and people who were pro-crib who are still sleeping with their kids.

Weaning is the same, I think. It's hardly fair for me to say that someone else should nurse and wean in the ways that I did. My boobs are my boobs and her boobs are hers. I find it frustrating for people to say that it's "gross" to nurse a toddler, since I did, but I'm certainly not going to reverse it on them and tell them it's stupid not to nurse a toddler.

I think all grandparents, especially grandmothers-in-law, have lots of set-in-stone advice for what you should do for your kids and how you should think about it. Mine comes from basically the same culture as I do, and she had plenty of ideas about what I should be doing differently. I see posts about this issue on here constantly. I don't think this is a matter for "too much attachment" and the dependence/independence conversation. This is more of an MIL-management situation. I think.


----------



## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

YOua re not in India, you are in US. Your in laws can do whatever they want in their fmialy but what your do in your fmaily is your business and not their.

They have their culture and you have your own.

This is time to be assertive and put your foot down right now. You are the matriarch of your family. Do what fits.

Many kids fuss 5-10 mins before falling alseep. It is fine. It teaches them selfsoothing. Nothing is worng with it.

Unless I had household helpt 24/7 , I would enver have time to spoon feed a 2 years old. And hwo would your kid cope with rpeshool or school if he was sppon fed into late adultahood.

Indian's culture is very opressive toward woman. While I udnerstand why it evoled the way it evolved, it is not soemthing I owuld want to emualte in any way shape or form.

Suffering is aprt of life. Everyone cries sometime. Expriencing disaipotinemtts and failures produces resilent children. A child for whom all the problmes in life are fixed by mom and grandma will grow up self centered and unhappy.

Talk to your husband and simply tell your MIL that is she does not wish to follow your parenting emthods, she can not babysit and or tell you what to do in front of your child.


----------



## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Quote:


> IL's cultivating "too much" attachment (dysfunctional attachment)? Not much different from other grandparents who bends rules and spoil the grandkids, just with the added cultural context. As long as my MIL doesn't wantonly defy my rules in my presence (right after I've said "no ice cream, for example"), I'm not too worried. I suppose even that can go overboard-- the spoiling and doing things differently from mom-- but I guess what I mean is that if it isn't creating trouble when my girls get back with us, I'm OK with it, in general anyway.


I would generally be the same except that my inlaws stay with us for 4-6 months at a time, then disappear for a year or more. Since they have a tendency to "take over" it's important that there be some level of consistency between my style and theirs.


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

I can already tell this thread is going to be difficult to read with a lot of culture bashing. As a non-Indian raised in Indian culture, I have an outsiders view and can maybe explain some of this. Or I can try to generalize a bit but of course India is a huge country with hundreds of different cultures and languages. For the most part, Indian grandparents spoil their grandchildren. You are the parent and are expected to set limits and they are the grandparents and expected to have no limits. Feel confident in your role as a parent and they may not do things like you do, but they aren't trying to change you or challenge you, they just don't impose the same limits that they would have done as parents. Just let them know how it is in this country and what your intentions are. They might walk away shaking their heads, but if you explain what you are doing, they will likely respect it. Also, as parents, they change their tune after their children get to school age. There is no more spoon feeding or allowing them to say/have/do whatever they want. They expect them to be responsible and productive. As for your husband watching TV with his parents in their bed, that's more a personal space thing to me. Even if they weren't related, you might find Indian family and friends in closer physical proximity than we are used to in America. 
I hope I can explain my thoughts on this but I'm not sure it will come out right. Anyway, Indian culture is generally very fluid and you will find that hard limits don't come up with them very much. They also really really really spoil sons. An example I can think of to explain the fluidity is if you ask an Indian person a question they might answer with a head bobble. That doesn't mean yes or no but it could mean yes or no. It could also mean maybe or it could mean that they heard you and are waiting for you to say more. I'm sure there are other examples I can come up with that will explain rigidity in their culture, but I think in navigating your relationship with the ILs, it's ok to be strong and confident in how you are doing things without worrying that their opposite view of things means they are negatively judging you. They just do it their way, you do it your way, and if you need them to do things your way in your home, you tell them why. I don't think they will get angry about it at all. 
As a postpartum doula, I work with many different families of all cultures and languages and see many styles of parenting. I don't think it's possible to overdo attachment parenting because AP is a a relationship between the parent and child. If one party is overly attached, the other party might pull away and then where is the attachment? AP requires a balance to continue the bond. I don't think you have to emulate the ILs or that they expect you to. But sometimes you might not mind letting your ILs spoil the 2 yr old. They aren't the parents and your child will learn a relationship with the grandparents and that will be different from yours. Please don't feel challenged. Do what is right for your family and what works for you and let them share some of their culture too.


----------



## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> On a practical note, how much time do you spend with your inlaws? Do you all live together or very close? Could you spend less time with them?
> 
> ...


I'll look at the link. I stay home so I spend about 30% of my day around my inlaws. The MIL speaks little english and makes little effort to understand. I do try to maintain distance from them and hope to have a more active social life this coming winter, by which time they will have left.

My husband has slowly become supportive of my needs and is intervening with them. I should be very grateful for that instead of feeling bad that he's the only person who tells me I'm a good mom I suppose!

I think consistency is very important as a mom. As long as mom is open minded about her parenting style, learning from mistakes, and making changes as needed, it's best for the mom's approach to be supported by the family even when they don't agree all the time. If my own parents have nothing positive to say in support of me, I simply don't give much else of what they are saying any weight. People should let moms do the parenting and help out where they are needed; which is most of all where the mom's need a little reassurance sometimes.


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *demeter888*
> 
> Earthmama,
> 
> ...


Haha you are not going to change their minds. Ever. They likely think they do it the best way and might even be judging you that your way isn't as good. You really don't need to convince them since they won't be having more kids anyway, right? Just tell them what you are doing and leave it at that. "Little One is exhausted and can't fall asleep with me near right now so I'm going to see if crying for a few minutes will help him decompress and fall asleep." And then walk away and expect that they will follow your lead. They can certainly talk about it but you don't need to educate or convince them. You just need them to respect what you're doing enough to not get in the way.


----------



## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kavamamakava*
> 
> I'm sure there are other examples I can come up with that will explain rigidity in their culture, but I think in navigating your relationship with the ILs, it's ok to be strong and confident in how you are doing things without worrying that their opposite view of things means they are negatively judging you. They just do it their way, you do it your way, and if you need them to do things your way in your home, you tell them why. I don't think they will get angry about it at all.


Thank you for the insights. I definitely have to remember that my inlaws are not to blame when I feel insecure about my choice. Their failure to see what is best for our family is just human nature. I was very angry yesterday because I felt like my abilities as a mom were in question. I need to take your advice to heart; that they will hopefully respect me and that I should not have any doubts. If I had not met my husband and found his culture so interesting, I shudder to think what mistakes I would have made trying to be a mom. It does not mean my own culture has not given me some really useful parenting tools!


----------



## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> Indian's culture is very opressive toward woman. While I udnerstand why it evoled the way it evolved, it is not soemthing I owuld want to emualte in any way shape or form.
> 
> ...


What country are you from? I think most cultures are oppressive of women, and America is not much of an exception. I would say the India is much more sexually oppressive of all people in general. Where I take issue with India is in the mentality of servitude and self sacrifice. I witness my DH and MIL pushing themselves to the point of exhaustion in order to feel worthy on a regular basis. There is no sense of self worth without measurable and comparable "output". People are what they do and nothing more.

And while I agree with some of your points and appreciate the fresh perspective, I find many things about India's culture that westerners have a great deal to learn from about adaptability, tolerance, family values, and some parts of attachment parenting. They in turn have some things to learn from us and we shouldn't make simple judgments and close our mind entirely because we don't agree with one aspect of the culture.


----------



## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kavamamakava*
> . You just need them to respect what you're doing enough to not get in the way.


Well, you have a point, but they are control freaks like my husband. They will find ways to remind me of their disapproval. They will question me repeatedly, then sulk. It would be different if they were just visiting for a week or two, but it's like living with three of my husbands in his most dysfunctional form LOL. Not funny.


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

You were probably upset because your little one was having a rough time too  It would be nice if they ILs were supportive


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *demeter888*
> 
> I'll look at the link. I stay home so I spend about 30% of my day around my inlaws. The MIL speaks little english and makes little effort to understand. I do try to maintain distance from them and hope to have a more active social life this coming winter, by which time they will have left.
> 
> My husband has slowly become supportive of my needs and is intervening with them. I should be very grateful for that instead of feeling bad that he's the only person who tells me I'm a good mom I suppose!


I'm glad to hear that your husband is supporting you and that they are leaving before long. It sounds like you just need some warm fuzzies to get through this because it is a temporary problem. Your in-laws sound like a PITA. I suspect few of us could stand having them around for a couple of months without getting a little shaken and feeling defensive.

here are some warm fuzzies --


----------



## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> I'm glad to hear that your husband is supporting you and that they are leaving before long. It sounds like you just need some warm fuzzies to get through this because it is a temporary problem. Your in-laws sound like a PITA. I suspect few of us could stand having them around for a couple of months without getting a little shaken and feeling defensive.
> 
> here are some warm fuzzies --


Thanks I did need warm fuzzies!

I just spent the last hour-and-a-half reading the same 8 page book to my son to get him to settle down and sleep because the 30 seconds of crying he would have had to endure to get there right off the bat would have been too much for me with my inlaws in the next room. We are basically sliding back in the wrong direction and the bottom line is that he sleeps fastest and best if I let him go to sleep without expecting more story and more milk and more huggies in an endless cycle. Still my MIL had to make the point when I finally came out of his room that she would be more than happy to go lay down with him. I explained that this would be the easy way when she is here, but after she is here, I am going to have a very small infant and a two year old and one of them is going to need to sleep without me. Still she has no intention of giving me the warm fuzzies.


----------



## earthmama4 (Oct 13, 2008)

I wasn't sure of your situation when I posted. Sometimes in cross-cultural marriages one spouse is quite "Westernized" and everything seems like a regular American marriage (if there is such a thing!) and then when the IL's arrive/visit etc it can become a total culture shock. It was from this perspective that I was writing because your frustration reminded me of my co-workers and others I have encountered who just didn't understand or have experience with cultures with an interdependent model of parenting. I apologize if I made unfair assumptions! I like hearing kavamamakava's insight!

And just so you know, I think it would be nigh unbearable to live with IL's for that length of time. True, I have an understanding of other cultures and I can see their good points and be tolerant, but I am also a very private and independent person and it would drive me freaking nuts to have anyone observing and then criticizing my parenting! I hope you find a solution you can live with and get some type of understanding between you. I don't think its too much to ask for them to give a little too in their approach and expectations.


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *demeter888*
> 
> Thanks I did need warm fuzzies!
> 
> I just spent the last hour-and-a-half reading the same 8 page book to my son to get him to settle down and sleep because the 30 seconds of crying he would have had to endure to get there right off the bat would have been too much for me with my inlaws in the next room. We are basically sliding back in the wrong direction and the bottom line is that he sleeps fastest and best if I let him go to sleep without expecting more story and more milk and more huggies in an endless cycle. Still my MIL had to make the point when I finally came out of his room that she would be more than happy to go lay down with him. I explained that this would be the easy way when she is here, but after she is here, I am going to have a very small infant and a two year old and one of them is going to need to sleep without me. Still she has no intention of giving me the warm fuzzies.


Oh no! Are you worried that they won't leave him alone if you leave him in the room crying for a minute or so? Can you just give him milkies, read a book, hug n kiss and then leave without them rushing in? It's ok to do it your way. You said that if they cuddle with him and then leave it will be harder on all of you. But you are doing something that's really hard for all of you now. So both of those options sound wrong for you and your son. Stand strong and do what feels right and shrug off their looks or whatever they do that feels like judgment. It doesn't even matter if they judge you since they aren't his mama. So there


----------



## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *earthmama4*
> 
> I wasn't sure of your situation when I posted. Sometimes in cross-cultural marriages one spouse is quite "Westernized" and everything seems like a regular American marriage (if there is such a thing!) and then when the IL's arrive/visit etc it can become a total culture shock. It was from this perspective that I was writing because your frustration reminded me of my co-workers and others I have encountered who just didn't understand or have experience with cultures with an interdependent model of parenting. I apologize if I made unfair assumptions! I like hearing kavamamakava's insight!
> 
> And just so you know, I think it would be nigh unbearable to live with IL's for that length of time. True, I have an understanding of other cultures and I can see their good points and be tolerant, but I am also a very private and independent person and it would drive me freaking nuts to have anyone observing and then criticizing my parenting! I hope you find a solution you can live with and get some type of understanding between you. I don't think its too much to ask for them to give a little too in their approach and expectations.


I am quite, quite in the minority compared the any other women I have ever known who married an Indian. My husband is still extremely Indian and his family is uber conservative and we sought their approval very formally before announcing an engagement. I have slowly regained my self esteem over time but still find it terrifying to assert myself in front of such judgmental people because I've never been under that kind of pressure before I we got together 7 years ago. I am very irolated in this lifestyle and use the forum more than I should to get support; I appreciate your insights very much.


----------



## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kavamamakava*
> 
> Oh no! Are you worried that they won't leave him alone if you leave him in the room crying for a minute or so? Can you just give him milkies, read a book, hug n kiss and then leave without them rushing in? It's ok to do it your way. You said that if they cuddle with him and then leave it will be harder on all of you. But you are doing something that's really hard for all of you now. So both of those options sound wrong for you and your son. Stand strong and do what feels right and shrug off their looks or whatever they do that feels like judgment. It doesn't even matter if they judge you since they aren't his mama. So there


I am so close to just giving in to them because in a few more weeks I will be too pregnant to police them. But yes they desperately want to comfort their grandson. I take offense to them thinking I don't understand how they feel. I am tortured to leave my son less than content. I have them here because I think it will be better for my son, even if they do end up teaching him bad habits and unrealistic expectations and make my transition with him after they leave hellish. That's why I'm fighting them NOW while I still have the chance to drill as much into their heads as possible. Most women would have given in by now, but I truly believe that my son will do much better if they try to mirror my parenting style as much as possible.


----------



## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I read the article you linked to above and was comparing it to myself and my inlaws. We are both somewhat child centered, but I am much less so than they are. My sister-in-law, their daughter, is a very insecure person and her kids are somewhat undisciplined and manipulative in my view. They are also very loving, so I have tried to see the positives of her parenting style. But, over all my impression has been with my SIL and MIL and other Indian women is that they are extremely, extremely insecure and sometimes use their childrens' affection as a way of measuring their own self worth. This means there are very few boundaries and the women who come to the USA to try and practice this form of parenting often run themselves in to the ground if they don't have the support they had in India, including other caretakers and housekeepers and cooks. My SIL has told her son when he was six that she hated him, and I was shocked, but I can understand that she has never known a different way of parenting, of defining her self worth, and of controlling her frustrated outbursts. She has never even been taught to consider others, to listen to them, to question authority. She has been super sheltered her whole life and married a typical indian male control freak.

Sorry for rambling. I'm certainly not saying I'm better than she is; just a bit better at stepping outside and observing myself and others.


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *demeter888*
> 
> I am so close to just giving in to them because in a few more weeks I will be too pregnant to police them. But yes they desperately want to comfort their grandson. I take offense to them thinking I don't understand how they feel. I am tortured to leave my son less than content. I have them here because I think it will be better for my son, even if they do end up teaching him bad habits and unrealistic expectations and make my transition with him after they leave hellish. That's why I'm fighting them NOW while I still have the chance to drill as much into their heads as possible. Most women would have given in by now, but I truly believe that my son will do much better if they try to mirror my parenting style as much as possible.


I have found that my children really do understand that different people do things in different ways. Like I let them walk and jump on the couch and their grandparents (both sets) freak out when they see them do it and tell them to stop. Even in our own home. So they understand that they just don't do that when the grandparents are around but they can do it when it's just us at home. Your children will know that the grandparents are not you and will develop their own relationship with them. I can tell you are conflicted about leaving your son when he's overtired and overstimulated. It seems like you shouldn't leave but you have discovered that when you do it's actually easier for both of you. When you aren't feeling strong it's hard to weather other people's influence. Just know that you are the only mother and the grandparents can't take your place and their relationship with your children will always always always be that of grandparents and grandchildren and not parents and children. Your children will figure it out too. It seems you're a bit nervous and anxious about how things will be in the future. I have a sick child and have learned with her recent diagnosis that I can never control the future. I have been forced to just BE and not live in the past or future and that's something I've always struggled with. I thought it was silly to pretend that the past doesn't have anything to do with the present or to not spend my time preparing for the future. I'm not saying just drift through life, but sometimes just taking stock of what is and not what will be can really bring peace and balance to a frustrating situation. Maybe it's late and I'm rambling and I'm actually worried about how to get my daughter to take her meds when she's already asleep instead of just enjoying a break from her because she is asleep, but when I do just focus on her and really soak her in during every moment we interact together, I feel less anxious and worried about how things will play out. I hope I've helped a little...


----------



## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kavamamakava*
> 
> I have found that my children really do understand that different people do things in different ways. Like I let them walk and jump on the couch and their grandparents (both sets) freak out when they see them do it and tell them to stop. Even in our own home. So they understand that they just don't do that when the grandparents are around but they can do it when it's just us at home. Your children will know that the grandparents are not you and will develop their own relationship with them. I can tell you are conflicted about leaving your son when he's overtired and overstimulated. It seems like you shouldn't leave but you have discovered that when you do it's actually easier for both of you. When you aren't feeling strong it's hard to weather other people's influence. Just know that you are the only mother and the grandparents can't take your place and their relationship with your children will always always always be that of grandparents and grandchildren and not parents and children. Your children will figure it out too. It seems you're a bit nervous and anxious about how things will be in the future. I have a sick child and have learned with her recent diagnosis that I can never control the future. I have been forced to just BE and not live in the past or future and that's something I've always struggled with. I thought it was silly to pretend that the past doesn't have anything to do with the present or to not spend my time preparing for the future. I'm not saying just drift through life, but sometimes just taking stock of what is and not what will be can really bring peace and balance to a frustrating situation. Maybe it's late and I'm rambling and I'm actually worried about how to get my daughter to take her meds when she's already asleep instead of just enjoying a break from her because she is asleep, but when I do just focus on her and really soak her in during every moment we interact together, I feel less anxious and worried about how things will play out. I hope I've helped a little...


I have barely slept because I am so upset about the attitude of my inlaws. I went to sleep at 2am and was awake before 6am, scouring the internet for Dr Sears and AP articles about teaching and discipline for toddlers. And I slept poorly. You hit the nail on the head; I'm extremely anxious. I'm doubting myself, wondering whether the things I have been doing were any good at all and contemplating a huge overhaul to everything. This is just not good timing and precisely why I was nervous about the inlaws helping to begin with. I had to give DS a time-out yesterday because he kept doing something dangerous that it's unrealistic to remove from his environment. The inlaws silently observed with no supportive words, as usual, when I put him in a 15 second time out and made him promise he wouldn't do it again. That flash of tears and drama from DS is devastating to me and the worst thing in the world is to have people behind me who clearly think there is a better way. It's no wonder that my SIL (their daughter) )has no confidence at all and I'm getting mad just thinking about all the times they should have said something positive but they had criticism instead.

Anyways, yes, your message is much needed and helpful. I am sorry your daughter is sick; I think your perspective is one that I should learn from. I think my anxiety is a problem in and of itself because that negatively affects my parenting much more than my inlaws do. The fact is that they are here and my son will enjoy the time he has with them. My SIL is so relaxed and has so few boundaries with her kids; but she is perpetually exhausted and the kids are eating loads and loads of sugar and no fruits or veggies. I guess I need to really figure out what is important and what I can let go of while they are here. It's just that 2 is such a very important time for learning boundaries. DH has boundary and impulse control issues and I can see why.

Again, I am really sorry your daughter is not in the best of health. You sound like you have some very special wisdom and I really am glad you shared some of it.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *demeter888*
> 
> I have barely slept because I am so upset about the attitude of my inlaws. I went to sleep at 2am and was awake before 6am, scouring the internet for Dr Sears and AP articles about teaching and discipline for toddlers. And I slept poorly. You hit the nail on the head; I'm extremely anxious. I'm doubting myself, wondering whether the things I have been doing were any good at all and contemplating a huge overhaul to everything. This is just not good timing and precisely why I was nervous about the inlaws helping to begin with. I had to give DS a time-out yesterday because he kept doing something dangerous that it's unrealistic to remove from his environment. The inlaws silently observed with no supportive words, as usual, when I put him in a 15 second time out and made him promise he wouldn't do it again. That flash of tears and drama from DS is devastating to me and the worst thing in the world is to have people behind me who clearly think there is a better way.


I think this is just a basic problem with in-laws. They are all like this. Well, OK, maybe not all, but a lot of them do this.

You are the mom. Your parenting is fine. Your child is securely attached. Please don't think that if you came from the same culture as your MIL that she wouldn't do this. She absolutely would!

You know how people say that women don't remember the pain of childbirth? It's my impression that grandparents don't remember the pain of toddlerhood. At least not very accurately! They tell you to do things that they did, whether those things actually worked or not.

Seriously. My MIL's eldest child didn't walk until she was over two years old, and my MIL told me to put my kid in a playpen, that he'd be fine. My dad, who is absolutely the best parent I know (really) freaked out when my then three-year-old started to get upset because he didn't get the right thing as a treat when we were on a visit. He was so worried I was spoiling the kid. (My kid is 10 now and very polite, so no, that's not what happened. Three-year-olds sometimes express themselves that way.)

You have these folks in your house for months while you're managing a really difficult transition. Don't look for expert opinion to bail you out, because even if they agree with the experts, your ILs are going to criticize you ANYWAY. One thing I did that was effective (but not 100%) was to ask the grandparents for stories about when they were parents. This diverted them from telling me what to do a little bit, and was interesting, and made me feel closer to them.

I do not think your ILs will succeed in stopping your kid from becoming a successful older brother and a big boy. I saw in your other thread that your son is taking his time to warm up to his grandmother. I'm sure that's because she's not approving and supportive of you. Naturally, you can't tell her that. You are the expert on your own child. You are the mom.


----------



## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Captain, I really, really, really needed to hear all of that today. Many thanks!


----------



## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *demeter888*
> 
> That flash of tears and drama from DS is devastating to me and the worst thing in the world is to have people behind me who clearly think there is a better way. It's no wonder that my SIL (their daughter) )has no confidence at all and I'm getting mad just thinking about all the times they should have said something positive but they had criticism instead.


Once they are gone, can you arrange to spend some time with like-minded mammas? There is something wonderful about in-person friends who are in the same parenting phase. If there isn't a group where you live already, may be you could start and APing playgroup.

I think that you are in a tough transitional phase with your son. When our children are baby, there tears mean so much and are really their primary way of communicating with us. In the toddle years, their tears mean a lot of different things, including that the word "no" makes them very unhappy. Our kids really aren't going to be happy all the time. No one is. I think that when we are clear and set boundaries and spend some time teaching them that certain things are just "no," then in the end, they can spend more time being happy. Even though the process of finding out that there are boundaries makes them sad *for a few minutes.*

We didn't make it a priority to get DD#1 to sleep on her own or with Daddy before DD#2 was born, and I regretted it. We had several extremely tough months at our house. I think you are doing the right thing.


----------



## cyclamen (Jul 10, 2005)

I grew up in a mixed culture family and am also in a mixed culture parenting relationship. I come from the family with elder-reverence and more group oriented culture and who (in my mom's mileu) practice things like bed-sharing, breast-feeding, or other "attachment" type behaviors which continue far beyond what is typical in white US culture. And also epic beatings. Anyhow, there's cultural difference and then, there's the ever present trauma that seems to be in most people's lives. It can be hard to sort out what causes what. I truly don't and won't write off everything my Korean side of my family does as "cultural difference" any more than I will excuse the crap that passes for love in my backwoods Louisiana father's family as "cultural difference." As I get older I understand that I also get to be the authority on myself and what my identity is and my values are. And I agree that not every conflict is a matter of "cultural differences."

I also agree with what you said about wanting to equip your son with the tools to navigate the culture he will find himself in. I have the same hopes for my children.

I've come to believe that children are capable of code switching in many ways, including parenting style. I used to get very stressed out about how other family members interacted with my child. I do draw the line at anything violent or harmful (I don't permit my parents to be around me or her because in the past few years they've been particularly dangerous and egregious), and my FIL often says stuff I consider to be creepy, so I don't leave her alone with him, and I call him out in front of her, but otherwise I no longer try to regulate how other family members interact with her. I do debrief if she is upset about something and I try to give her the tools to respond. Even her father and I have big differences in how we parent, and yet she doesn't find it confusing. She knows that mom does things one way and dad does them other ways.

Of course I can't tell what the long term effects will be, but I like to think that I'm modeling something important for her. I can't control the way others act, but I can control my responses. I have boundaries for things I find non-negotiable, and I do not waver on that, and after some years of therapy, I have no guilt about it either. This is how my daughter will learn the tools she needs to cope with the many cultural environments she will find herself in. I value group oriented culture and individual oriented culture for different reasons, but she is growing up in a culture that values more individual oriented. Being able to code-switch is an important skill, and one that I myself and learning still.

And, to be honest, parents from cultures with elder-reverence will almost certainly respond to any challenge to their authority with a hissy fit or an explosion of some kind. It's the profoundest insult. So the trick, for me, has been deciding what things were worth holding my ground over. It's stressful and it sucks, and if you find a way around it let me know!

Anyhow....







to you. When my mom used to visit, it was nice having her dote on my daughter but profoundly stressful because she picked on me over absolutely everything and would even physically chastise me in front of my daughter. I never let her stay more than a few weeks at a time. I would have been pulling my hair out if it had be 4-6 months, and if I were pregnant too.... that's a lot! Do you have any female friends about your age who are Indian and raised in the US? They might have some insight or at least commiseration for how to cope.


----------



## cyclamen (Jul 10, 2005)

woops!


----------



## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> Once they are gone, can you arrange to spend some time with like-minded mammas? There is something wonderful about in-person friends who are in the same parenting phase. If there isn't a group where you live already, may be you could start and APing playgroup.
> 
> ...


I am already in a meetup; just too tired right now to go to any meetups. But I need to! My son is an extremely reasonable, emotionally balanced, and manageable two-year0old. He rarely has tantrums that last for more than 1-2 minutes and he even lets me give him medicine and trim his nails. I feel him shifting just from being around his grandparents in the last few days. He says "no" to me constantly and is just very unfocused. Just like DH LOL.

Hopefully it's just a phase and coincidence.

I am glad to know I am taking the right direction with sleep training him now before the baby arrives. In fact, I turned that one overt to DH about six months ago and explained very clearly to him what needed to happen and that I would be happy to help. I have a feeling he and I will be sleeping separately for a few more years because so far he has done nothing to sleep train our son while I have been the one who finally got him to fall asleep by himself most nights.


----------



## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cyclamen*
> 
> I grew up in a mixed culture family and am also in a mixed culture parenting relationship. I come from the family with elder-reverence and more group oriented culture and who (in my mom's mileu) practice things like bed-sharing, breast-feeding, or other "attachment" type behaviors which continue far beyond what is typical in white US culture. And also epic beatings. Anyhow, there's cultural difference and then, there's the ever present trauma that seems to be in most people's lives. It can be hard to sort out what causes what. I truly don't and won't write off everything my Korean side of my family does as "cultural difference" any more than I will excuse the crap that passes for love in my backwoods Louisiana father's family as "cultural difference." As I get older I understand that I also get to be the authority on myself and what my identity is and my values are. And I agree that not every conflict is a matter of "cultural differences."
> 
> ...


Isn't it great how growing up more two cultures facilitates more objective introspection? DH also comes from a very group oriented culture. I too have had plenty of therapy and self analysis with a family with its own extensive (no less dysfunctional) issues that go well beyond cultural difference. I have been taking care of my own food and laundry since I was 8 or 9; DH now thinks this is how all American families are. He has no American friends!

As my son gets older, his cultural identity is going to be very important to him in ways I can't even anticipate. It's great to get your insight.

You and another mama have really clued me in to the idea that my son's relationship with me does not need to mirror his relationship with others. While that is scary, it's relieving to realize. I would be glad to be able to relax the reigns and let him get spoiled a bit, to be honest. I just don't want him to think I'm the bad guy.

It sounds like you have a very clear understanding about your boundaries and have found your ground. I think that alone is such an important parenting tool; one I'm definitely improving on with time and so glad I got the validation on that that I needed.

DH had a talk with his parents last night and MIL was much more supportive today. We had a good day; they respected my boundaries when I asked that they not give snacks and sweets to DS. I am hopeful.

I have no good friends from India. My fault. Need to work on it more. Sending you double the hugs!


----------



## cyclamen (Jul 10, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *demeter888*
> 
> Isn't it great how growing up more two cultures facilitates more objective introspection? DH also comes from a very group oriented culture. I too have had plenty of therapy and self analysis with a family with its own extensive (no less dysfunctional) issues that go well beyond cultural difference. I have been taking care of my own food and laundry since I was 8 or 9; *DH now thinks this is how all American families are. He has no American friends!*
> 
> ...


Oh my gosh, yes! I remember my parents talking about what was "American" and "Korean" and as an adult now I want to be like, "Y'all crazy! Y'all crazy, that ain't nobody's culture!"







But I mean, some of it is, and, as you seem to know well, some is their unique brand of dysfunction.

It's a really scary and lonely place to be when you feel like your relationship with your son doesn't find mirrors in other family relationships. I think that typically as humans, we've parented in community, and community is important to our sense of stability and safety. It's hard to find community and yet also find a way to live with integrity in our own values, which sometimes differ greatly from the people around out. And it's a huge task to find a sense of community and good boundaries in the midst of very different ideas about what community is or boundaries are - and doubly so when you come from a background that didn't really equip you to do that, as it sounds like your family also had its own gaps in supporting you in getting your needs met in a healthy way.

I am hopeful for you too! That's great that your MIL was receptive to what your DH said to her. Lots of







and hoping for more positive communication.

Also, are you familiar with [edit] Marshall Rosenberg's nonviolent communication book? My therapist recommended it to me last year, and I go back to it a lot. The language in it has helped me tune in to my own values and needs and be self-compassionate, and in turn to be able to listen to what others say and find understanding, and also ask for understanding. Some of the stuff he says occasionally makes me roll my eyes, but I think it's a great tool for communication when two people have radically different sets of values and need to understand each other.

My favorite moment he describes is when he walks into his house after a long difficult day and his kids are fighting, and he just yells, "I'm in pain!"


----------



## rktrump (Jan 18, 2013)

I haven't read the whole thread, so pardon. Just wanted to weigh in on two things:

1) It is clearly an independent vs. interdependent issue. It's hard for us (even if we're intimately familiar with the practices of other cultures) to really wrap our heads around something so different than our 'habitus'. AP seems like a pretty good go-between inter- and in-dependent to me. I cannot imagine not setting boundaries and I think doing so (along with other more Western practices) will help raise a child who will strive in a Westernized society.

2) I know leaving children to cry is the worst thing to mention on Mothering. Sometimes I've found it has to be done in my house (will make no judgment on others) - maybe it's my own selfishness or temperament, but him crying alone for a few minutes is better to me (maybe just for me) than him crying in arms for an hour and me getting frustrated - by then I'm no longer the adoring mommy I want to be. I wouldn't recommend leaving a young baby to cry, but I'm pretty sure your toddler can handle it. Then again, I wouldn't leave my guy to cry with company in town - not fair to make them bear it, IMHO. There, I said it.


----------



## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cyclamen*
> 
> Oh my gosh, yes! I remember my parents talking about what was "American" and "Korean" and as an adult now I want to be like, "Y'all crazy! Y'all crazy, that ain't nobody's culture!"
> 
> ...


My mom is from a poor southern family and thinks all "normal" Americans curse like they do in reality shows. She tried explaining that to my husband but he wasn't buying it. It's just amazing how our ability to identify a cultural vs. a family issue seems to validate or invalidate our feelings about a particular quirk we have in our own behavior. Like, if everybody is doing it, then it's somehow valid. In the end I guess you and I get to decide for ourselves what we want our kids to learn from us is normal. Too bad there isn't an intentional community where I live that has a similar mindset on parenting/living.

The book you suggested seems to be very much in the vein of the types of self help books my DH likes when I buy them for him. I.E. How to trust, how to convince others, how to be charismatic, Etc. But, I am betting based on you being the one who suggested it that it's a few levels deeper than this, so I will get it; and if I don't like it my husband will

I am not sure how to use the emoticons yet (and too sleepy to look through what is probably a very long list of them), but I am certainly sending the warm fuzzies back your way.


----------



## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rktrump*
> 
> I know leaving children to cry is the worst thing to mention on Mothering. Sometimes I've found it has to be done in my house (will make no judgment on others) - maybe it's my own selfishness or temperament, but him crying alone for a few minutes is better to me (maybe just for me) than him crying in arms for an hour and me getting frustrated - by then I'm no longer the adoring mommy I want to be. I wouldn't recommend leaving a young baby to cry, but I'm pretty sure your toddler can handle it. Then again, I wouldn't leave my guy to cry with company in town - not fair to make them bear it, IMHO. There, I said it.


These mamas are seriously sensitive about children doing CIO. It was a hard place to initiate the thread but it turned out to be good. I was the most reactive mom I have ever seen in terms of how I would react to my son's crying when he was an infant; I would borderline freak out when he cried. NO, I actually did freak out a few times, like got absolutely, completely hysterical when he fell off the bed at four months, and was not injured but cried loudly.

Luckily he almost never cried for more than a few seconds (how long it took to breastfeed him), or else I'd have probably gone completely bonkers. I have trusted my instincts very very closely in terms of how I respond to him, and it was around 9 months that I started to be able to handle it rationally. I still don't handle it "well", but there are times when his tears and that heartbreaking doubt in his eyes, I'm still able to struggle through it to prevent his further suffering. Not always, but most times. T

But you make a good point and it's that I can't expect people who love my son to feel OK with him crying when they don't understand WHY, because I couldn't imagine it either. It's not fair to my husband so I have to remember his grandparents are part of his thingy...I need sleep.


----------



## rktrump (Jan 18, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *demeter888*
> 
> These mamas are seriously sensitive about children doing CIO. It was a hard place to initiate the thread but it turned out to be good. I was the most reactive mom I have ever seen in terms of how I would react to my son's crying when he was an infant; I would borderline freak out when he cried. NO, I actually did freak out a few times, like got absolutely, completely hysterical when he fell off the bed at four months, and was not injured but cried loudly.
> 
> ...


I relate. I too was soooooo unhinged whenever my little guy would cry in the beginning. The mere thought of CIO seemed insane to me - how could anyone?....how cruel!. But, I got more rational with his cries around 6 months and now have a much better sense of what the cries are saying and, thus, can respond accordingly. I read somewhere that parents can have a hard time directing their children when the parent takes on the child's emotion instead of being a solid home base for the child to work from (e.g., me getting upset when my guys is upset instead of being a calm foundation for him). I think I'm inclined to do the former, so I'm working toward the latter.

Regarding letting him cry with others' around - yeah, what you said. You articulated my point much more eloquently.


----------



## EliteGoddess (Aug 5, 2013)

What you're describing is not at all Attachment Parenting. Check out API's website for what is.


----------



## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

OP i read the whole thread.

and really if you take out the cultural aspect of the thread what it boils down to, is differences with MIL.

this is a common, common thread here.

i am not sure what the answer is - if there is one - except to vent and share where you feel supported.

as an anthro student you are making a judgement against a culture according to what you call dependency. part of your issue is the conservativeness. again take the culture out of the mix - lets say the spoon feeding and use say any of the AP tennants. if you and MIL see differently - its going to be butting heads time.

she is not wrong. neither are you.

and the worst thing in your case is your dh is close to his parents.

4 to 6 months is a long time.

i think you have nothing to fear. as pp pointed out children code switch very easily. if you do your thing and they do theirs and there's a toleration on both sides your children can only benefit. it becomes a problem if one person decides that is teh best way and the other ways are all wrong. did you know in hawaiin culture a child has many mothers and the child has to listen to all of them. i think all her mothers sisters and sister in laws are the child's mother and the child is expected to respect each of their mother. since they are all on the same side of the family, there usually isnt any disagreements.

so here's what you have to do for yourself. separate teh two issues. becoming more like an indian and having more indian friends is not going to solve anything. it is going to complicate matters.

separate teh cultural aspect. dont look at it from the cultural point of view. hanging out with his parent and watching tv in their bedroom is common in many cultures in asia. dont try to stop that. esp. since ur dh is close and really as strange as it may sound - is it really that bad?

instead really focus on what the main issues are. you will respect your inlaws if they follow certain norms of your house. they should not run in to stop your child crying as much as you dont run and try to stop them from spoon feeding your kid. kinda like a give and take.

dont look at this problem as your kids are doomed. they are not. you said your dh has come around a bit. that is good news. just dont go over the top.

btw japanese kids here have high suicide rates too. its i think the shock of isolating societies that are to blame rather than overbearing parents.

and the idea that an adult dd of mine could just come over and sit on teh bed with me watching TV sounds heavenly. what a sweet connection. there is something sweet and informal about the bed than the formal living room. except we'd probably be on the computer.


----------



## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Wow I could have written this post. I am married to a man from India-- 16 years married now. We still deal with cultural parenting issues. I had to see that his way of love is different than mine. My in-laws are still in India and so I tolerate their actions that are based on love, knowing that they have only a small precious amount of time with their grandchildren. If you are having your in-laws babysitting, you may have to just accept those things in her when your child is in your care, as long as you can do what you want to do when you are in your own home.

* Edited to add that I just read more of the thread and see they are staying with you-- that is hard! But temporary.

When younger I also struggled with the spoon feeding thing. We also struggled to get my oldest out of our bed after cosleeping for awhile. I was pregnant with the second when I finally told him he needed to somehow transition her. I was having a hard pregnancy and needed her out of our bed-- she kicked very hard for one thing. He ended up sleeping on the floor next to her bed in her new room. (Which was fine with me-- had the whole bed to myself!!). I enjoyed the cosleeping but there was a point where it was not working for me and he used guilt to keep her in the bed longer.

And yes, the crying thing too. I remember when we were in India, dd was a year old. We stayed for 2.5 months. The bedroom was not childproofed fully and I was trying to get her to go to bed. When she started to get off the bed, I simply picked her up and laid her back down on the bed next to me and told her to go to sleep. We did this several times and she started to scream and cry in frustration. I felt okay with what I was doing-- it was way too late and she needed to settle down and sleep. Suddenly the door burst open and I had both in laws demanding that I give in to her, because it was not good for babies to cry at all--- would hurt their spirits. I told her I was setting limits and please do step out so I can parent her and get her to sleep. My oldest is very high strung and hard to settle, even at the age of 12. I had to set limits with her early on certain things, and as a result she is doing quite well. They always tell me know what a good mom I am to her. ;-)

The food issue-- very cultural. Food equals love in India. When dh speaks of his childhood, his eyes light up when he talks about the food. He had some of his best memories at the dinner table, and watching his mom cook in the kitchen. Hand-feeding babies in India is very cultural and loving and nurturing. It also was easy to do in a traditional household with grandma, mom, aunties all living close together. And, there was less mess to clean up and less food waste, as food is precious there with so much poverty. This was how it was explained to me by my in-laws.

I am trying to teach my kids to cook and find healthy snacks for themselves and make good choices. My 12 year old is being encouraged by me to pack her own lunch. Even when they ask to help cook he sends them off and insists on cooking for them. My 12 year old still gets her crusts cut off the sandwiches. But the worst is the guilt. They get full and push their plates away, or they simply don't care for something he cooked. He encourages them to finish their plates, and says "I worked so hard to make this for you. You don't like it? That makes me sad." I always have to counter this with "It's okay to listen to your body if you are full. Please try a little, if you don't like it make a peanut butter sandwich."

It has been a huge battle also to let them have natural consequences. If they forget their homework I will not drive the homework to school. He grew up in a traditional Indian household where mom did everything for them. Or the household help did. His mom even choose his college major for him. I asked him if he liked that, and he said he did not know what he wanted to do and trusted his mom's judgement. I see in him a lifelong lack of confidence and I wonder if a lot of that had to do with his upbringing. When 12 year old clogged the toilet yet again, I taught her how to use the toilet plunger and he was appalled and very much against me doing that. I could give 10,000 examples.

For him, love means doing everything for the kids. For me love means teaching them life skills and seeing them become more confident in themselves for it. At least there is love in our family.

Thankfully I am with them more than he is, and they enjoy cooking, cleaning, and doing things for themselves. But it's hard, and it's a constant battle that will probably not end until they tell him to lay off.


----------



## research babe (Jul 15, 2013)

Having "dated" a man from India and learned much about the culture there and also, dealt with boundary issues with in-laws (who doesn't?) I can sympathize with you. You may be disgusted with your in-laws culture and/or choices in how they raised their son... but try to remember that they must have done something right, else you wouldn't have married him, right? Coming from the perspective of two in-laws who are not long for this world, in the end, though it makes your life challenging, all the stuff you're dealing with is "small potatoes" in light of the big picture of life. Do you want your lasting memory of one another to be how you hated one another and loathed their presence? Or you could remember how inspite of their quirks, you remained gracious and kind. I tell you... being gracious and kind to your in-laws can go a long way in your relationship with your husband. He will be able to look at you with more respect for your composure and handling of an unpleasant situation. How can love refuse to grow in that kind of environment? I probably don't have to tell you that in Indian culture, the elders are always treated with respect, even if the "elder" is just a year or two older. It is probably hard for them to respect your opinion since you are so young. And because interference is expected in Indian culture, they likely don't feel any remorse for their meddling ways. They probably are convinced that they are just doing what good grandparents do. Perhaps your husband can speak with them on your behalf in their native tongue. They aren't going to see you with respect, most likely, until you "behave" with respect toward them and maybe even "fall in line" with their philosophy. All the complaining about how they do things and clashing isn't going to get you anywhere in their eyes but more importantly, nor will it bring peace between you and your husband, as it would in any marriage, inter-cultural or not. I would try to overlook and be gracious about as much as you can. Problem solve with your husband privately and come up with boundaries for your in-laws that you are unwilling to compromise on. Then try to have him communicate with them in a respectful and firm manner. If you can narrow down the truly important things... like, would it really hurt your son to lay down with his grandma for a few minutes before falling asleep? What a precious memory for everyone involved. Or maybe there is something else that you feel you could compromise on. Doesn't mean he still has to lay with his Grandma at 15.... I feel for you.... I really do! Dealing with in-laws is just never easy and it has the potential to become a real thorn in the side of your marriage. Thank goodness you have a supportive husband in all of this!


----------



## filamentary (Aug 15, 2013)

i have wondered for a while how people manage to AP when the second & third baby comes into the picture, b/c of how hard the time commitment might get. the other day a woman i ran into at the bookstore said how AP was fine and all, in theory, except she's on #5 so it's impractical. naturally, i judged her-silently but strongly; if her other children needed her, wasn't she being selfish by indulging some odd craving for another cute little baby instead of continuing to practice a parenting style she felt they deserved when they were teenier (and, what, cuter?)? not to mention, the world is certainly suffering no shortage of humans. not a huge problem in the states, granted, but still. i'm not saying i have a right to judge, i am just being honest here about my own inner dialogue, to set the stage for the thought process that follows.

so i thought, evolutionarily, how did we do it? were babies poorly adjusted? then it occurred to me! breastfeeding! it would have spaced out pregnancies farther than we often choose to do, if were breastfeeding for 3, 4, or 5 years, right? maybe not, but it would make sense that this would be a natural spacing out, and totally healthy (unlike the formula-feeding & birth control norms of so many families nowadays).

so with these sets of thoughts swirling in my head, i just kind of wonder if maybe, in the world outside of my own rigid preferences, and also outside of the mindsets of women who only choose AP when it's easy or convenient, there's some happy, healthy middle ground. i can tell you're nothing like the woman i described who rubbed me the wrong way, especially when you describe how heart-wrenching it feels for you to hear your son cry. i don't at all judge you for having figured out that sleeping sometimes takes a few brief moments of turmoil, and feeling assured of that even in the face of your MIL constantly second-guessing you. you are the momma, and you know your baby best.

but isn't it possible that your MIL adores her grandson FAR more than she cares about disagreeing with you (same as i'm sure you feel), and truly believes she is doing what is best? not saying that makes it okay, or that you ought to let her, just that maybe if, in the face of disagreeing with her, you can sense the loving place that motivates her behavior, you can feel less tension and stress in how you ultimately work it out? because the other thing to point out is that if she is at all inclined to be a little judgmental like me, she might be wondering if having your son sleep away from you at such a young age is really in the kid's best interest, or only being done to make your life easier. maybe she thinks there is a way to keep more attachment in that relationship but you're not trying, even if that's not true, because she can't fathom (even more so than an AP convert fails to fathom) how you can push away your teeny little son at such a tender young age? and to her, the crying at the edge of sleep is evidence?

i'm not saying this doesn't suck in its own unique way, if this is how it's playing out in her mind. just that it might change the dynamic or, at the very least, how you feel about it. b/c would you respect & appreciate more (outside the experience of it frustrating you) her trying to placate her daughter-in-law (if what you are doing she believes at her unshakable core to be NOT in her grandson's best interest) - or - trying to be the best grandmother she can be to her beloved grandson, because she truly loves and cares for him?

i hope i kind of explained these hypothetical brain landscapes in a way that was helpful. and please forgive me for what i know is judgmental in my own views. i should point out that it's easy to pass judgment on a description of a situation, and i feel that's all i'm really doing here since i don't know you. i usually am very good at seeing other people as the kind, awesome people they really are when i know and speak to them at more length, so i hope you know it is very unlikely that, despite my admissions, i would judge you personally!

that said, i don't envy your situation, and i sincerely hope you find little ways to make the long interlacing of your lives more peaceful & harmonious & conducive to the intensifying pregnancy!


----------



## Good Enough Mum (Apr 3, 2007)

Quote:

Originally Posted by *research babe* 



> Do you want your lasting memory of one another to be how you hated one another and loathed their presence? Or you could remember how inspite of their quirks, you remained gracious and kind. I tell you... being gracious and kind to your in-laws can go a long way in your relationship with your husband. He will be able to look at you with more respect for your composure and handling of an unpleasant situation. How can love refuse to grow in that kind of environment?
> 
> [...]
> 
> All the complaining about how they do things and clashing isn't going to get you anywhere in their eyes but more importantly, nor will it bring peace between you and your husband, as it would in any marriage, inter-cultural or not.


Maybe I missed something, but I haven't seen anything to indicate that the OP is being anything other than gracious and kind in her dealings with the in-laws. What she's doing is setting boundaries, and very appropriate ones based on all she's said.

It's a very common mistake to believe that there's something unkind about disagreeing with someone or refusing to do things their way, and it's far too common in our culture for people (usually female people) to be expected to give in and not make a fuss in the name of 'kindness'. Nope. Obviously the OP should be polite in how she speaks to her in-laws, but it is perfectly OK for her to set whatever boundaries she feels appropriate and to hold firm to those. As to whether she loathes her in-laws' presence and doesn't end up with good memories of them... well, if they keep acting the way they're acting that may indeed be how things end up, but it's not fair to paint this as being something that she's doing wrong. If they don't respect the way she believes in doing things and sulk when she won't go along with what they want, yes, they're probably going to leave her with bad memories and a bad impression of them. That's what happens when you treat people the way they're treating her.

OP, I don't know if this is any help, but there's a great advice blog I really love at captainawkward.com. She gives advice on lots of things, but there are several posts on there that deal with the problem of maintaining your boundaries in the face of difficult people (especially family members!) and it does seem to me to be something you'd probably find helpful and worth checking out. (The only thing to be aware of is that she does sometimes use pretty explicit language and also some of the posts on there talk about sex. I don't know whether either of those things would be a problem for you, but thought I'd better warn you just in case.)

Meanwhile, hugs to you. You sound like you're doing an amazing job. I know it's horribly difficult to stand to what you're doing in the face of such persistent, insidious disapproval, especially when you're still early on enough in your parenting journey that you still (if you're anything like me) have a lot of lurking inner doubts about whether you might in fact be Doing Something Wrong... You're not. You sound like you have excellent boundaries and parenting decisions with good, well-thought-out reasons for them. I know it's really difficult, but keep on staying calm about sticking to your guns. And come on here and vent whenever you need to.

BTW, their parenting style doesn't sound like 'extreme AP'. It sounds like permissive parenting. AP isn't supposed to be about doing more and more and more and more for your child in an infinite spiral, it's supposed to be about being responsive to your child's needs. Spoonfeeding a child who wants to feed himself, hovering over him when he needs to be alone to get to sleep, letting him have stuff that's bad for him, and not setting proper boundaries, are most emphatically NOT responding to his needs.


----------



## research babe (Jul 15, 2013)

I understand what you're saying Good Enough Mom. I do believe in setting boundaries, I absolutely do! Perhaps that didn't come across clearly somehow. What I was trying to get at in the statements you quoted was that given being raised in a different culture, these things are "normal" to her PIL. It's true there is little that one can do to change someone else- so the best strategy is to flex and change where possible in ones self- as much as possible, to have a good attitude, spirit while working through the conflict together. I did not mean that she should give up all her convictions (cultural or not) and just do whatever her PIL want no matter how much it violates her or her son. I have some practice at trying to be gracious while harboring bitterness in my heart. It may not be spoken but the energy can be felt by others. The situation she is in is not easy, for sure. Handling this well means hard heart work for a mom and trying to zoom out of the present focus on conflict and differences and seeing the bigger picture of your whole lives together. I don't expect my opinion to be popular. I'm glad you commented though so I could clarify some things that could cause misunderstanding. Many blessings to the original poster as she seeks to work out these challenges and trials.

Lori ~


----------



## Good Enough Mum (Apr 3, 2007)

Quote:


> 2) I know leaving children to cry is the worst thing to mention on Mothering. Sometimes I've found it has to be done in my house (will make no judgment on others) - maybe it's my own selfishness or temperament, but him crying alone for a few minutes is better to me (maybe just for me) than him crying in arms for an hour and me getting frustrated - by then I'm no longer the adoring mommy I want to be. I wouldn't recommend leaving a young baby to cry, but I'm pretty sure your toddler can handle it. Then again, I wouldn't leave my guy to cry with company in town - not fair to make them bear it, IMHO. There, I said it.


At the moment, it seems to be a choice between 1. in-laws are distressed by their grandson being left to cry very briefly, and 2. OP has to spend huge amounts of her time trying to settle son without crying, and he faces potentially a lot more distress further down the line when the in-laws have left, he's forgotten how to get off to sleep without someone there for ages to settle him down, and has the extra difficulty of that to compound his transition to having a baby in the house. Honestly? I get that it's tough on the in-laws, but it sounds like it's going to be a LOT tougher on the OP and her son if she's stuck with this business of having to avoid any crying at all on his part because the ILs can't handle it, and it sounds a lot more unfair to me to expect her to put up with that.

Completely agree with you about some children needing a few minutes crying alone to get off to sleep, though. Yes, staying with children when they cry is better in most cases, but for some children that just plain doesn't work. That was my experience with my daughter - I spent SO much time trying to settle her to sleep while she cried, only to find that if I just left her alone she settled far quicker and with far less crying. Having me there didn't comfort her, it kept her awake and crying for longer. (BTW, interesting post about this at http://askmoxie.org/blog/2011/01/tension-decreasers.html, by a mother who's against CIO but then had exactly the same experience with her second child that I had with mine - that he needed a few minutes being left alone and crying to settle down - and came to realise that this really is just the way some kids are.)


----------



## filamentary (Aug 15, 2013)

i am not a momma yet, but occasionally i wonder if all the trouble trying to *get* babies to sleep is less a problem of them having trouble getting to sleep, and more a problem of trying to get them to follow our schedules (or assuming the schedule they followed in the past should still apply)? like sometimes i'm reading about these extended dramas around trying to *get* baby to sleep, but what would happen if, in those scenarios, baby was allowed to just hang out, awake, in the sling, being supported and comforted by the caretaker, so they don't feel alone in the midst of their tough emotions, and without an expectation of going to sleep? would this baby never sleep? or would it just get even more tired and eventually sleep when it's ready? i just keep thinking to myself, "meh, who cares if the baby sleeps *right now*? it'll sleep when it needs to, won't it?" ... but these things are just passing through my head without nearly enough context, so i don't pretend to know that my thoughts apply to this convo. also, i read this thread a while back, and didn't reread it just now, so it could possibly be co-mingling in my brain with a bunch of other threads... i'm not meaning to pass judgment, just trying to make sense out of the differences between the by-the-book principles of AP (& related books, like unconditional parenting & raising our children, raising ourselves) and the way that it plays out in people's everyday experiences. like, when are people truly unable to enact what these books say will give the best results (and for what reasons), versus, when are people getting undesirable results because their choices or expectations don't actually align with the parenting principles i am hoping will work for me when i become a momma soon. so please take my comments/questions in this way! =)


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *filamentary*
> 
> i am not a momma yet, but occasionally i wonder if all the trouble trying to *get* babies to sleep is less a problem of them having trouble getting to sleep, and more a problem of trying to get them to follow our schedules (or assuming the schedule they followed in the past should still apply)? like sometimes i'm reading about these extended dramas around trying to *get* baby to sleep, but what would happen if, in those scenarios, baby was allowed to just hang out, awake, in the sling, being supported and comforted by the caretaker, so they don't feel alone in the midst of their tough emotions, and without an expectation of going to sleep? would this baby never sleep? or would it just get even more tired and eventually sleep when it's ready?


Some babies are great at sleeping, and some are not. My kid is 10 now, and he still sometimes has nights when he can't get to sleep--and it upsets him, and he complains about it. My impression that he was having trouble sleeping when he was an infant is confirmed now because he's had trouble getting to sleep as a child, when he can talk about it. Most nights he goes to sleep without a problem. I still remember him, five or six years ago, saying, "I'm having a somnia!"

It's terrible that he has trouble going to sleep, but it's a million times easier now that he can talk about it and discuss what he needs. The thing about infants is, they aren't magical little animals who run on instinct. They're baby humans, who think and perceive in a way much closer to the ways adults do than you think they will. Like adults, they can actually stay awake longer than is healthy for them.

The reason this is an issue is that babies who don't sleep enough, don't feel good the next day. My friend kept her toddler awake very late so that she could hang out with her cousins. The next night, I saw the little girl--she was shaking with fatigue! You don't want to see your child get that way. On other other hand, other children of my acquaintance (not mine, unfortunately!) could be kept out late with their parents, because they'd just go to sleep when they needed to sleep. You'd put a blanket on them, that was it.

I think it's worthwhile to try to laissez-faire methods you describe and see what kind of person your child is. Remember, though, that you also need to sleep. Naps get much more important when you know that without one, your child won't sleep at night!


----------



## research babe (Jul 15, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *filamentary*
> 
> i am not a momma yet, but occasionally i wonder if all the trouble trying to *get* babies to sleep is less a problem of them having trouble getting to sleep, and more a problem of trying to get them to follow our schedules (or assuming the schedule they followed in the past should still apply)? like sometimes i'm reading about these extended dramas around trying to *get* baby to sleep, but what would happen if, in those scenarios, baby was allowed to just hang out, awake, in the sling, being supported and comforted by the caretaker, so they don't feel alone in the midst of their tough emotions, and without an expectation of going to sleep?


By golly, I think you're onto something!  I spent a lot of time on coaxing my first born into a scheduled sleep because that's what I thought was suppose to do to be a good mom... it was mainly the influences I had at the time... and I think some kids DO respond to schedules if that fits their personality type... but by the 3rd born I ditched the schedule in favor of baby-wearing and co-sleeping and everyone was MUCH happier. No more crying it out and pushing baby away for some strange ideal of independence. I've enjoyed my children much more since switching parenting styles. It fits me, it fits my kids. I will say though that I do remember crying even as an older child when I got overly tired. I was emotional and it really was what I needed- to just be able to cry and express how I felt and then I could fall asleep. So while I can see what some parents are saying when they say they think there kids need to cry, it's certainly not my favorite way to handle meeting sleep needs and how much better would it be if they could sleep before they were beside themselves with exhaustion- there's a happy medium in there and that is the fine art of being a mother.


----------



## TarynDickey (Sep 18, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EliteGoddess*
> 
> What you're describing is not at all Attachment Parenting. Check out API's website for what is.


Thank you - I was waiting for someone to point this out!


----------

