# No brats allowed!



## Wabi Sabi (Dec 24, 2002)

Anyone else see this article yet? Sigh.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14136994/

And for a few of the reader's comments:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14348175/


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

*


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Frankly, I can see where the backlash is coming from.

I don't blame children for being children. But I'd be surprised if there was anybody here that *hasn't* witnessed a situation where parents, through thoughtlessness, ignorance, or indifference, didn't create a situation where their children's behavior (developmentally appropriate that it might be) in a public place was troublesome to other people.

Unfortunately, the people that insist that it's totally okay for their toddler to talk loudly and throw things at other people during a PG-13 movie have ruined it for all the wonderful parents that work especially hard to find ways to make public outings fun and enjoyable for their children AND their fellow citizens of the world.

You know what I'm talking about if you've ever brought your child on an airplane or into a restaurant. You automatically get the stinkeye from everybody around you. And at the end of the trip or meal, people come up to you, ASTONISHED b/c your child was "so well behaved".

People are (sadly) accustomed to seeing really poor parenting. No wonder they want to have child free public places.


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## aprilushka (Aug 28, 2005)

I think it's appropriate to say no kids, or only older kids for example with nice restaurants or anywhere else that doesn't cater to kids and makes a point of that. The bookstore example is ridiculous though-- if you put a train set in a bookstore you can hardly complain about the noise from kids playing with it.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Give me a break. Kids are kids and if these people can't handle a little noise than that's really their problem. YES I try to be considerate of others, no I don't bring my toddler to the movies, nor do we take him out to a restaurant for a late supper but I think that other people need to have a little more tolerance and compassion for those of us who are doing our best.

There are often times tables of adults at restaurants who are ruining my meal because they are laughing and carrying on very loudly, but nobody makes a stink about that.

That article is irritating.


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## MeganW (Jul 11, 2004)

China ITA with you. I have a 1yrold DD (almost 2) that can sit through a 2hr dinner at a sushi restaurant and albeit there will be a mess everyone else in the restaurant will NOT be disrupted by her. I would say almost everytime I go out in public I see at least one child often times with 2 parents or a parent and older sibling (this isn't an issue of a mom/dad with a lot of little ones and no help) acting l ike someone just let them out of a barn and I ALWAYS look at the parent and not the child and think wtf is going on here. We've gone from the victorian extreme that children should be seen and not heard to children are people too and we don't have the right to correct them. i think this is also often a case of parents not knowing any better. A girl I work with says you should have to get a permit to have children because some people just can't handle it. Anyway I've gone off on a rant but I think instead of banning children and attacking them we need to look to their parents, support them, educate them, and help them to understand what is Truly acceptable behavior. ITA there are places where children do not belong and should not be taken but it is essentially up to adults to make that judgement.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Goodness Gracious!! What's Next? People will be complaining about Kids being too loud at Disney World!!!!!

Parents have it WAY too hard these days


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

We have a Greek restaurant with a sign on the door that says "Well Behaved Children Only". They used to have a sign that said "No one under age 8 admitted." I've never gone there.

I feel mixed about this. On the one hand, I do think our society treats kids like dirt. You see it all the time and they're constantly being forced to the bottom of a rather long list of "other" priorities.

On the other hand, I've gone to movies where children run across the front aisle screaming (and these weren't kids movies either), had my child bullied by other children at the park or train table at the library, and been at restaurants where children are literally throwing food that has landed on my table.

I don't think it's the kids, necessarily. I think it's the parents. And I don't believe good parenting equals quiet kids. My own bunch can be quite noisy. But if my two-year-old is shrieking at a restaurant, my hubby or I will take him out so he can play and be happy without disturbing everyone else. Or, if I'm alone, I'll leave if I have to.

The problem with stories like this is they lump together the ridiculous with the sublime. A kid making noise while playing with a train table is normal kid stuff, a kid running up and down the aisle of an airplane is not.

Just my two cents.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

I have yet to come across a "Only Well Behaved Kids Allowed" type restaurant. I'm trying to explore my feelings in case I DID and right now, I feel anger bubbling up because it almost feels like a racist statement to me...

Like "No Color People Allowed"...this is how I feel. So, now, having identified my feelings, I would probably Boycott that restaurant.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy*
I have yet to come across a "Only Well Behaved Kids Allowed" type restaurant. I'm trying to explore my feelings in case I DID and right now, I feel anger bubbling up because it almost feels like a racist statement to me...

Like "No Color People Allowed"...this is how I feel. So, now, having identified my feelings, I would probably Boycott that restaurant.

How about "no cell phones allowed" zones? Or "no dogs allowed" beaches?

Those restrictions have been placed on some areas b/c people yapping on cell phones and dogs that aren't leashed/curbed bother the majority of the people that use those areas. Their owners ruined it for everybody with their poor judgment.

Similar idea. It's not that dogs or phones are BAD, per se.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat*
How about "no cell phones allowed" zones? Or "no dogs allowed" beaches?

I can understand "no cell phones allowed", it's reasonable: just fold your cell phone up and put it away.

The difference is we are talking about human beings here...


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## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat*
How about "no cell phones allowed" zones? Or "no dogs allowed" beaches?

Cell phones and dogs aren't people.







:


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## Fiercemama (May 30, 2003)

I get PO'ed when I see stuff like this. Its discrimination based on age. Can you imagine if the signs said "no one over the age of 65 permitted". Or just replace "children" with race.

Just one more example of how children are second class citizens in our culture.

There is a restaurant in our neighborhood that has signage that says "children are welcome in our restaurant". Then lists the times and ways in which they are "welcome". This is in an neighborhood with lots of families, where people are quite apt to take their kids out. I don't spend my money there any longer.

I get really peeved when its a supposedly "family friendly" business or place. I work in the arts and entertainment industry. One of our clients has banned kids under 2 from their "family concerts", because their president went to one and found the younger kids disruptive. Its a freakin' children's event! If I take my 4 yo, I expect to have kids bouncing on the seats and generally making noise. Plus it makes it more difficult for families to take their older kids. While we see a lot of shows with DD, I boycott this organization's shows.

Sure, some kids get out of hand. And some parents don't respond appropriately, or take their kids to appropriate settings. Well, lots of adults behave in inappropriate and annoying ways as well. If you are out in PUBLIC, its par for the course. Get over it. Its just that its socially acceptable to say "no kids allowed".

"A person's a person, no matter how small" - Dr. Suess, Horton Hears A Who


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

That article made me sick.
Sure, I've seen kids acting poorly, and I've shot some dirty looks at some parents because of it. But that is DEFINITELY the exception, not the rule.

"Breeders".









My sig quote came from an essay about this issue. It says that perhaps we should ask these people who exactly they think will be taking care of them in their older age. Who will be their dr's, their lawyers, their financial advisors?

My pet peeve at restaurants is when the hostess looks at me, dh, and ds, and says "Two"?
I just had to get snarky with a hostess the other day b/c she brought us to a 2-top and I requested getting moved to a 4-top. She replied, slightly snotty, "for the two of you"? I had to point out to her that there were indeed THREE of us, and my son eats too.







:


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

I agree with this reader comment: _There are places where kids can make noise, and there are places where they need to adapt to the social norms of their environment. It irritates me when I see other parents acting as if everything their children do is OK because they are children. Generally, these are the same people who speed through parking lots, let their cell phones ring in movie theaters, and get into the express line in grocery stores with too many items._

Rude people are unpleasant to be around, no matter what their age. A child can be forgiven for doing something rude briefly because he doesn't know the "rules" about how we behave in this situation, but it's a parent's job to help the child learn those rules...and if the child can't behave appropriately right now, it is the parent's job to remove the child from the situation if possible and to apologize on the child's behalf.

Hoopin' Mama, oddly enough, we recently encountered the opposite situation: A waitress insisted, loudly and in a tone that implied she thought we were stupid, that the 5 of us (me, toddler, partner, uncle, and teen cousin) could not sit in a booth and would have to sit at a table with chairs and a highchair. We were firm about preferring to have toddler sit between us in one side of a booth, and she eventually relented but kept peering at us as if she was certain she'd have to move us to a table any minute.







It worked out fine.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CryPixie83*
Cell phones and dogs aren't people.







:

Um, I'm aware of that.

I was just pointing out situations where a few inconsiderate people have ruined it for everybody.

And if you don't think there are inconsiderate parents out there, then I'm afraid that you don't get out much.

I never said that children *should* be banned. I was just trying to explain *why* other people might feel that way.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

I couldn't read the whole article - uggh. I think this is a mixed bag. On the one hand - there is a world out there that has unrealistic expectations of what is appropraite behaviour for a child. On the other hand, there are parents out there that have unrealistic expectations of when and where they should take their child?

FI - Children's section in book store. Its for kids? How can people be annoyed if kids are there being kids? Didn't you invite them basically?

Compare to nice 8 pm dinner out with my DH in nice restaurant. A kid being a kid there would annoy me (BTW - its never happened). But yeah - if I paid for a babysitter for some rare quality time with DH at a nice adult evening meal. What the?

Ditto for the evening movie out to an adult themed movie? Crying baby next to me? I have experienced that - and totally mad. what the? I would never bring my baby to an evening movie (especially with all the THX, Surround Sound Audio stuff now - its so overpoweringly loud) and then let her cry and disturb other movie goers? What the?

How about planes? Well, this is tough. Kids have as much right to travel (constitutionally) as anyone else. And knowing how hard it is to travel with a toddler - let alone more than one - I mean, were the parents "letting the kid run wild" or were they trying to strike a balance between having to physically restrain a tantruming hysterical toddler annoying the whole plane with blood curdling screams v. allowing them to roam a little (hopefully with parent right there?). I mean - which is worse? I've been that parent. And don't tell me kids shouldn't be allowed to fly. That is a non-starter for me . .








It is so situational, I guess?


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprilushka*
I think it's appropriate to say no kids, or only older kids for example with nice restaurants or anywhere else that doesn't cater to kids and makes a point of that. The bookstore example is ridiculous though-- if you put a train set in a bookstore you can hardly complain about the noise from kids playing with it.

To this point . . . private proprietors have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. Its only public places that can not do so . . . . .


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## LeftField (Aug 2, 2002)

The most disturbed I've ever been on a plane have been situations with crying babies/toddlers and really loud obnoxious adults. Pre-kids, the babies annoyed me because I had no clue how difficult it is to keep a baby quiet on a 10 hour flight. But it's not like they can really help it. But the adults who are very loudly talking and laughing until 4am on the plane...they know better! They are the ones being obnoxious and inconsiderate. Yet, no one gives them dirty looks when they come on the plane, like the wary looks my (relatively quiet) kids get.

The bookstore thing bugs me, because the bookstore is not the library. It's a place where people are supposed to buy things, not sit in chairs and read stuff for an hour or hog the cafe with their laptops for the price of one cheap cup of coffee. People treat it like the library or their personal office and it's not. My kids may not be talking in whispers but at least we're buying things. That's a personal gripe of mine...I expect my kids to hold hands, walk and be relatively quiet in the bookstore but there's no way I'm asking them to whisper for the freeloaders.

I have seen some pretty poor child behavior in public and I blame that on permissive parenting. I think it's pretty selfish of the parents. We all want to see the newest R rated movie, but if you can't get a babysitter, please don't take your loud baby or traumatized child in the cinema. I had to skip movies when my kids were too little to be there and it didn't kill me to wait for it to come out on video.

OTOH, people are pretty unfriendly to children in some public places. Here is my gripe story. We eat at Panera Bread, because my kids like the bagels. They sit in their chairs and they eat quietly. Their only offense is getting the cream cheese all over their faces.







They are, honestly, very quiet and respectful, however. But every time we've ever sat down, the people with laptops (the ones who are renting Panera as office space for the price of one latte) get up and leave immediately. You know, it annoys the crap out of me to have to hear their loud self-important phone conversations on their cell but I'm not leaving over that. But I enter with my quiet boys and the very sight of them drives the laptop people away.







. The last time it happened, the boys sat down and started talking...a laptop guy immediately sighed deeply and packed up his stuff. I was so pissed off over his sense of entitlement. We're spending over 10 bucks for a 20 minute period and this guy is spending about 3 bucks for an hour with his laptop. And yet, we're considered the intruders. We're freaking paying customers!







: Now, having said that, I wouldn't bring my kids into a darkened coffee house and let them talk really loudly, because that's a self-selected group that shares an understanding of what the environment is supposed to be like there...hushed. But Panera Bread? Give me a freaking break!

Pre-kids, I was one of those annoyed people who cringed when children did more than breathe in public. Post-kids, I'm one of those annoyed people who simultaneously hates permissive parenting but hates having her children treated like sub-human creatures.


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## MommaCrystal (May 25, 2006)

I'm one who agrees that there are situations where children just may not be expected. However, I do feel society is getting less tolerant.

Recently my small group of mommy's, 4-5 women and infants of various ages were meeting at a Starbucks. A man stormed off, whith his laptop, very annoyed. Hmmm... I wonder why?

But worse, FRIENDLY'S! If You don't know it it is the total ideal of a FAMILY restaurant. Colorful murals of the circus on the wall, full kids menu, placematts with crayons to color to the whole bit. They didn't want to serve us. No place for the other ladies bucket seats.


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## aparent (May 9, 2006)

In this country each weekday nearly all of America's children are sequestered in schools and the streets of our towns and cities are nearly childless. If they are brash enough to appear in public after school apparently some wish they should be seen and still not heard. In other lands children are everywhere a part of adult life, intrinsic to it. I expect adults in public to behave as adults; as considerate, mature, human beings who understand children are not adults and that perhaps their immediate desire for quiet during dinner may be more selfish than the movement of children towards what they need.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Hmmmm kids & dogs yeah that's the same...

What about the adults who talk over everybody else in the restaurant and nobody says boo about it? My child isn't loud at restaurants for the most part and if he ever is I will promptly take him out because of my personal desire to be considerate, but it would take A LOT for me to give someone a dirty look because their child was acting up. Why can't we (humans, parents, whatever) just support each other w/o jumping right to being "annoyed" because our precious lunch/dinner is "ruined".


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## muckemom (Jun 26, 2006)

annettemarie said:


> We have a Greek restaurant with a sign on the door that says "Well Behaved Children Only". QUOTE]
> 
> Not that this is at all relevant to the thread, but it reminded me of a sign that we saw in a china shop in Carmel, it said, "Unsupervised Children Will Be Given Espresso and Free Puppies"
> 
> It made me giggle


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fiercemama*
I get PO'ed when I see stuff like this. Its discrimination based on age. Can you imagine if the signs said "no one over the age of 65 permitted". Or just replace "children" with race.


Okay, would some folks please get *off* the high horses before y'all get a nosebleed, okay??

That said, this is absolutely _not_ age-based discrimination; it is _behavior-based_ discrimination. Rest assured that if an adult were to scream, run around the restaurant, throw food, and disrupt patrons, they wouldn't just be given dirty looks. The police would be called. In short, the behavior is the problem and not the age in and of itself.

The restaurants in question are _not_ banning children as a class (another reason why the PC police have just written out a bad ticket here). That indeed _would_ be age-based discrimination; however, the restauranteurs are asserting their rights as business owners to have their patrons dine in peace and to behave appropriately in much the same way that some other restaurants advertise, "No shoes, no shirt, no service." That is hardly age-based discrimination; it's about behavior that disturbs the clientele or is in violation of a health code.

A child's running around and throwing food is a liability and a danger not only to himself, but to other patrons and to the restaurant. Recently, we had a very long thread about allergens. A child's throwing a handful of crab at someone who was seriously allergic to shellfish could literally cause that person to go into anaphylactic shock and die -- and that's not such a farfetched scenario either. More immediately and practically, a child running under a waitress carrying a hot pot of coffee or a steaming bowl of soup could land himself and others in the ICU all ready to make acquaintance with Mr. Skin Graft. Unfortunately, the restaurant itself might be held liable for the damage incurred as a result of the child's behavior. I don't blame them a bit for insisting on some basic level of social appropriateness.

It has very little to do with children as so-called "second-class citizens" and a great deal to do with certain behaviors being dangerous and life-threatening. Again, just to be absolutely crystal-clear, *does anyone at all* think that if an adult were to engage in (for example), throwing food, running around in the path of waitstaff, or shouting loudly enough to disturb others, that the restaurant would allow that behavior to continue? Really?


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## afishwithabike (Jun 8, 2005)

I don't know who is worse the ones being spoken about in the article OR the nasty reader comments. Some people are just downright horrible.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

muckemom said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
> ...


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
Okay, would some folks please get *off* the high horses before y'all get a nosebleed, okay??

That said, this is absolutely _not_ age-based discrimination; it is _behavior-based_ discrimination. Rest assured that if an adult were to scream, run around the restaurant, throw food, and disrupt patrons, they wouldn't just be given dirty looks. The police would be called. In short, the behavior is the problem and not the age in and of itself.

The restaurants in question are _not_ banning children as a class (another reason why the PC police have just written out a bad ticket here). That indeed _would_ be age-based discrimination; however, the restauranteurs are asserting their rights as business owners to have their patrons dine in peace and to behave appropriately in much the same way that some other restaurants advertise, "No shoes, no shirt, no service." That is hardly age-based discrimination; it's about behavior that disturbs the clientele or is in violation of a health code.

A child's running around and throwing food is a liability and a danger not only to himself, but to other patrons and to the restaurant. Recently, we had a very long thread about allergens. A child's throwing a handful of crab at someone who was seriously allergic to shellfish could literally cause that person to go into anaphylactic shock and die -- and that's not such a farfetched scenario either. More immediately and practically, a child running under a waitress carrying a hot pot of coffee or a steaming bowl of soup could land himself and others in the ICU all ready to make acquaintance with Mr. Skin Graft. Unfortunately, the restaurant itself might be held liable for the damage incurred as a result of the child's behavior. I don't blame them a bit for insisting on some basic level of social appropriateness.

It has very little to do with children as so-called "second-class citizens" and a great deal to do with certain behaviors being dangerous and life-threatening. Again, just to be absolutely crystal-clear, *does anyone at all* think that if an adult were to engage in (for example), throwing food, running around in the path of waitstaff, or shouting loudly enough to disturb others, that the restaurant would allow that behavior to continue? Really?









:


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## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

I may be in the minority here, but if the children were behaving raucously enough that a clerk felt the need to intervene, I have a feeling the mother may have a been a little *off* about her evaluation of her children's behavior.

Locally, we have a lovely little children's clothing store that I absolutely adore browsing in, and in the back is a big train table, and a stable with several horses. My son will play with them nicely, but if he starts to act up or get loud, I let him know he needs to use his indoor voice.

"Kids acting like kids" is not an excuse for inconsiderate behavior. There are lots of kids' behaviors that are NORMAL and developmentally APPROPRIATE that aren't ACCEPTABLE. It's normal, for two year olds to get in a shoving match over a coveted toy. But it isn't ACCEPTABLE. We don't just SIT there and place BETS over who's going to get knocked over first, do we? No...we intervene, act like PARENTS, in short.

If fewer parents would stop being nincompoops about their kids, there wouldn't be an anti-kid backlash in public. FTR, don't take your 4 year old to a rated R movie at an 8PM showing! Don't sit while your two year old is running back and forth in the restaurant screaming his head off!


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## thefragile7393 (Jun 21, 2005)

I admit I see both sides (and I also see the dogs and beaches comparison as well...it does make sense in the sense of how she meant it).

Before I had kids....yeah I had all these ideas of how kids should be. Nothing like a kid to make you eat crow that's for sure.

I too get irritated at how people automatically assume child = hellion...however unfortunately there's too many people around who allow their children to be hellions. It's up to each of us to make sure we're not part of the problem.


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## Rio Mama (Apr 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aparent*
In this country each weekday nearly all of America's children are sequestered in schools and the streets of our towns and cities are nearly childless. If they are brash enough to appear in public after school apparently some wish they should be seen and still not heard. In other lands children are everywhere a part of adult life, intrinsic to it. I expect adults in public to behave as adults; as considerate, mature, human beings who understand children are not adults and that perhaps their immediate desire for quiet during dinner may be more selfish than the movement of children towards what they need.

I remember years ago one weekend at my residential university, a crowd of children came to campus to see some performance. It struck me then, and I've noticed it since, that once many of us go off to college, it's the end of seeing little kids on a regular basis - until we have our own.

I tried to do my part to expand the envelope a little last weekend & took my two little sons to the pub. My 3 year old was the only dancer in the place. I started to wonder whether he was annoying the other patrons, most of whom were 20somethings. When he finally retreated to my lap, a 70 year old woman approached us. I braced for it. She leaned over and complimented him on his dancing.


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## PMolly (Dec 16, 2005)

As someone who has worked in one of those bookstores with a train table in the children's department, I'd like to throw out my 2 cents. From my experience ONLY, the problems I encountered were not from the kids but from the adults. I do not think it is appropriate for children to be left to play alone unsupervised while the grown ups trot over to the cafe to have a leisurly cup of coffee leaving no one supervising their children (except perhaps another child). Of course it IS fun to run around the bookcases squealing, but it's not appropriate. I was always terrified that someones child would get nabbed at our bookstore. I can't count the number of times I have seen children crying and wandering around looking for their mommies because they don't know what it means when mommy says "i'll just be looking at magazines (or fill in the blank)"
I knew every day when I went to work that I would hear children being loud. I didn't even mind when a toddler peed on the porch area where the train was (well, I did MIND, but I didn't get angry, only disgruntled with my job). But is it really okay for a toddler to climb ON TOP of the train table while his grown up sits idly by thumbing through a magazine? If he falls and gets hurt, who would be held responsible? Is it okay when other customers feel threatened walking around because children are racing around the department while the mothers are chatting away about _____ (topic of the day)?
From my experience, when the adults are present and actually PRESENT with the children they have brought I haven't had problems. When the adults are either not physically with the children or just not paying attention to them, I have seen many children acting in inapproprate ways.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joannarachel*
I may be in the minority here, but if the children were behaving raucously enough that a clerk felt the need to intervene, I have a feeling the mother may have a been a little *off* about her evaluation of her children's behavior.

You are probably on to something there.


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## kisagotami (Sep 18, 2005)

I read through this thread trying to decide how felt about this issue. I have to admit that I've been places where children were mis-behaving and it doesn't bother me too much. My dh gets irritated but for the most part I think we both realize that kids wll be kids. On the other hand I have also watched kids mis-behave and their parents make it worse. I'm ok with the kid in front of me at the grocery store throwing a hairy tantrum over some impulse item, that's natural, tantrums happen. But what I have a problem with is the kid who is freaking out and running wild and you look around and where are the parents? That bugs me. Parents have a legal and moral obligation to keep an eye on their kids especially in public places.

I also have to say that there are just some places you don't take children. I don't take my 16 mo old to the movies or to coffe houses or wth me to get a pedicure. Parents need to realize that you can't just tote your kid every where because there are some places your kids does not want to go...it's no fun there...so why torture them and others?

I heard a mom in the dressing room next to me the other day and she had a toddler in there with her and the tot was just screaming and calling for her, and she just kept saying over and over, just a minute baby, mama's almost done. I just felt bad for the kid.

I hope this doesn't sound like I'm on a "high horse" or anything, I just wish people would pay more attention to the needs of their children.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Well, as a mother of a sometimes uncontrollable-undisciplined non-ADHD 6 year old (and his now 2 yr old sister







: ) in public, this is just depressing.

Half the time they are fine in public, and the other half I feel helpless and angry because they aren't listening to me, running around like lunatics in Old Navy (especially together) making me look like a moron. Grrrrrrr.

I took DD once to get my hair done.







Never again because she started to cry at the blow dryer. I initially asked my hair dresser if this was OK (it was fine the billion times before) but I felt awful for the others around me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kisagotami*
I also have to say that there are just some places you don't take children. I don't take my 16 mo old to the movies or to coffe houses or wth me to get a pedicure. Parents need to realize that you can't just tote your kid every where because there are some places your kids does not want to go...it's no fun there...so why torture them and others?

That quote just reminded me... I was at the same salon a few weeks ago and a celeb/former model came in. Everyone was excited she was there. She brought in her 2.5 yr old and the nanny. Both women got their hair done.

People went out of their way to help...

One hair dresser took it upon herself to twirl the little girl around the aisle (to keep her happy and entertained). Not that she was loud or anything.

Just interesting...

I can see both sides.

Yes, if JR is out-of-control then it's a problem. There needs to be common courtesy. But if kids are fine and adults just have a "problem" with them being there (and there is no obvious problem) then it isn't fine.


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## kisagotami (Sep 18, 2005)

Wow, I wish I could walk into a salon and have people falling over themselves to hang out with my little guy. But I'm not famous.

Once though, when I got out of the Navy I had to move a bunch of stuff into a storage shed, DH wasn't around at the time and I was in a new town all alone with my son. So I strapped him into the mei-tai and started moving my stuff, it was ok for about 15 min but then he started to cry...then scream and I was at a loss as to what I should do, then one of the U-haul employees came out and offered to hold him...and please don't think I'm being judgmental here but he was ths really big gruff trucker looking guy...I was skeptical but my son loved him, they were dancing around the uhaul area when I was finshed having a good ol time.

Maybe the real problem is that the whole "it takes a villiage..." concept is pretty much extinct today.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I think it's all about common sense. If my child is being no more loud than the others present, I don't mind. It's about the location, the behavior of others, just what's appropriate. If you're bothering or doing harm to someone, you should stop. Likewise, if you're being bothered or harmed, politely speak up. Just be reasonable. If a child is banging on a table on a restaurant no more loudly than a group of people are laughing at another table, what sense does it make to take the fork away so he'll scream even louder? If a child is running up and down the aisles at a movie, but being quiet, that's different from him running up and down the aisle screaming and whacking people. I've discovered that a lot of adults bothered by my kid are being even more obnoxious... like whispering in a movie a lot more loudly than the occasional whimpers of protests he makes.

Rather than not allow kids, why not have specific times where kids are not allowed, specific dates...and then specific times when kids are encouraged, and then times in between just be for everyone,. I know some theatres even have showings just for families with kids, which is great.

It needs to just come down to teaching your kids not to bother or harm others. Don't bully. Don't throw food at the neighboring table. Keep the noise level down. You can encourage kids to be kids in positive ways...and if a kid is being a kid in a positive way that doesn't truly affect you, SHUT UP, lol. If a kid is talking in a movie but you can still hear the movie, get over it. If they are talking so loud you can't hear it or concentrate, the parent should do something about it.

"I heard a mom in the dressing room next to me the other day and she had a toddler in there with her and the tot was just screaming and calling for her, and she just kept saying over and over, just a minute baby, mama's almost done. I just felt bad for the kid."

...What was she supposed to do, leave the store in her underroos so the kid wouldn't have to wait for her to get dressed again to leave? What if she was shopping for something she needed, like clothes for an important event coming up that she wasn't going to have another chance to shop for? Maybe the following day was going to e her first day of work, and she had to buy some clothes? I wouldn't feel bad for the kid. Not unless she was being rude to him or hitting him or had been in there for like two hours or something... I really don't think a toddler that wants something now necessarily needs it right at that moment.  My kid might want a hug or a cookie or to go home at an exact moment, but he's not going to die without it. He gets plenty enough hugs not to need one every five seconds and plenty enough food that he can go a while longer without a snack. 

"does anyone at all think that if an adult were to engage in (for example), throwing food, running around in the path of waitstaff, or shouting loudly enough to disturb others, that the restaurant would allow that behavior to continue? Really?"

Parents know better. Children are still learning. And they won't learn if they are shooed out of the place before being taught not to perform the behavior...and then they might grow up to be adults who throw food and shout at fancy restaurants


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

A reader comment

"I reported my dislike while the kid danced in the open area and eyeballed other customers attempting to dine."

HAHAHA. OH NO! He danced in the open area in a bar where other people were probably dancing, a space that was intended for dancing! And oh no... HE LOOKED at people who were eating! HOW DISRUPTIVE! I mean, sure, kids don't belong in bars but... OH NO, he danced in the proper place and looked around!!!

I mean, what should we do, never have a family night out? Never travel on a plane with kids? I guess my son, if he's going to fuss on a plane, should NEVER be allowed to fly down to visit his grandparents because he might bother someone on a plane. They're going to get from point a to point b regardless, and it's not like he's interupting their quiet, nice meal or hurting them....but no, god forbid someone be annoyed on a plane, but still get there unharmed. Better that my son grow up not being able to see his grandparents unless we can find the extra 4-5 days it would take us to drive there and back than for us to fly down much more often and possibly annoy people.

"the petition loosely compared dining with children to dining with cigarette smoke."
Right... because kids dining causes as many health problems as inhaling second hand smoke... haha

"Dogs are better behaved, they smell better and they're much cuter,"

I've met a few dogs who have been through obedience school and have recently been bathed that meet this description...but overall, most dogs don't behave anywhere near as well as most children even the unruly ones...and tehy are nowhere near as cute. My dogs are much uglier, stinkier, and worse-behaved than my kid. Dogs may smell better than a child whose diaper hasn't been changed or a child who hasn't had a bath in a week but... not better than my kid, lol.

"museums are now inappropriately clogged with strollers,"

Because... it is inappropriate for toddlers to be strolled through learning environments to discover science and history...and parents that have older children, but younger children as well, should not be allowed to take their families to the museums to learn and explore.

I'm sorry. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry at this article. I have mixed feelings. Mostly its just... HAHAHAHA. But part of me is sad that people ACTUALLY think like this.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I think there are definitely parents who are not being considerate to others in public places that make people feel negative toward children. Some parents do take their children to places that the kids can't really handle yet. Children are not to blame for being kids.

Some parents really do make an effort to be considerate of others though. It is unfair to be negative toward all children before any rowdy behavior happens with that particular child. It is very much like deciding all people of a certain race are criminals and treating them suspiciously when they walk into a store for no other reason than their race.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyzombiecat*

Some parents really do make an effort to be considerate of others though. It is unfair to be negative toward all children before any rowdy behavior happens with that particular child. It is very much like deciding all people of a certain race are criminals and treating them suspiciously when they walk into a store for no other reason than their race.

Yes, but let me point out that the restaurants in question were not being "negative toward all children before any rowdy behavior happens." They're specifically pointing out that children _are_ welcome but that rowdy behavior from them (and, I think one can quite safely assume, from any patron) is _not_ welcome at all.


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## LeftField (Aug 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
I'm sorry. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry at this article. I have mixed feelings. Mostly its just... HAHAHAHA. But part of me is sad that people ACTUALLY think like this.

The lady in the article that complained about breeder's kids in her Whole Foods store, she used the word, "entitlement".







Talk about irony. Who has a greater sense of entitlement? I shop at Whole Foods and the biggest nuisances there are adults who stand in the middle of the aisle with their shopping wagon/trolley and look around for a long time. They're kind of oblivious to everyone else and their need to get through the aisle.

I can sort of understand the strollers at museum, but not children at museuems. In other words, I think it's great that children are going to museums but those strollers can be huge. They're kind of a nuisance in general. We go the art museum regularly. When my youngest was very little, I would hold him. With baby on the hip, it's easier to point to things and keep baby engaged.

I've never seen a kid throw food at a restaurant. I have seen kids roaming through restaurant aisles, however, and I don't think that is right. We went to noodle bar recently. Both my kids sat in their booth, colored, looked around and waited for the food. There are times where the waiting makes them a bit restless so we might have to bring a little toy or draw something for them or be creative in some way. It didn't help that the table across the way was letting their children roam through the aisles. Honestly, when my kids wouldn't sit at a table for that long, we simply didn't go to restaurants. Yes, it stunk, but oh well. The older sibling was older than my oldest! She was at least 6 and should know better than to roam around the aisles. The sight of these kids roaming was not only distracting and annoying to everyone else, but it was making my kids ask, "Why can't we get down and run around?" The parents made no effort to say, "We need to sit down. We sit down in restaurants."

Still, some of the most obnoxious and disruptive behavior I've seen in public has been from adults. No one calls them "brats".


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## LeftField (Aug 2, 2002)

There's also an interesting cultural component to this, of course. Where are most of the posters from? Would it be safe to assume that most are residing in the U.S.? Of course, "appropriate child behavior" is going vary widely based on culture. I have heard that there is a greater tolerance for child behavior in Spain, Greece and Italy. We travel to the UK regularly. There is a much more stringent standard of child behavior, IMHO, in England. When we're there, I find that I'm more concerned with my children being quiet and orderly.


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## punkinsmommy (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tanibani*
Half the time they are fine in public, and the other half I feel helpless and angry because they aren't listening to me, running around like lunatics in Old Navy (especially together) making me look like a moron. Grrrrrrr.

That was me yesterday. I had to run errands and take the kids to Old Navy and the mall to find school shoes (3 stores and the mall later and still no shoes. Ugh).

The kids were fried, the baby was fussy, and I was tired. DS1 (8) picked up some silly squeek toy and started squeeking it while moving his mouth, pretending the annoy squeek was coming from his mouth. A passer by looked at him like he was insane. I just had to laugh.

I guess I see both sides, but the fact is sometimes kids have bad days. In general, my kids are well behaved but if they're over tired, over hungry, or just in a bad mood (kids to just have bad days you know. Just like us adults) they may just act like hellions. And I can't just say "Ok, well we are going to all sit home because DS1 is having a bad day or DD is cranky" Sometimes I HAVE to do errands, and if one of the kids acts up I'll handle it. But if some onlooker decides that my kid is trouble because of it, well I guess it's too bad for them. You can't please everyone. All you can do is do your best for your kids.

Is it acceptable for a toddler to run up and down the isles of a plane? No. And it would probably annoy me a bunch. But I can see how it happens. Believe me, I have been at that point where you just say "Go ahead" because you can't keep up the fight with a child. Imagine really, being 2 years old, stuck on a plane with no where to run? It doesn't sound all that pleasing to me.

And how to you judge if a parent is just being inconsiderate by not "controling" their child or the child is just having a bad day and the parent just simply can't put up the fight anymore?


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## workingon4 (Aug 22, 2006)

I have not read every post word for word, so forgive me if this was stated. I believe that behavior, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Parents my look at your kids and say "what a brat" but they will think nothing of it when their own child does the same thing.

I will say I would rather have a chatty, entertaining little toddler goofing around have the time of his life then be stuck next to Sally telling Jane all about the affair she is having and all the details, VERY LOUDLY, whether I am there with my kids or not. Or even better....when I get stuck next to some "guys" who think that cussing is a part of every single sentence they speak, I just LOVE THAT. I would much rather see a sign that says "Inside voices please and if you must cuss, do it elsewhere". Because children can be nasty little things, but that is part of what I love about them.

I have a friend who just doen't "do" anything. She won't even look at her son and say "shhh, we're in a restaurant". She honestly believes that everyone enjoys him screaming, running around the restaurant, going up to the waiter while he is at another table...did I mention he's 6.5? She is a "loud talker" too. I have even seen her overhear what the person next to us is saying and join in their conversation, having no clue that those people don't like realizing someone over heard them! It's very awful. I am honestly surprised we have never been asked to leave. I have seen her son squirt my son in the eye with juice and make him cry...just because he thought it would be fun and she didn't say one word to him about it. I have left restaurants and had to appologize to the waiter. I have noticed there is a restaurant that she goes to ALL THE TIME...every time I go there with her, they stick us in the very very back away from everyone else. THESE are the kinds of people that I personally think that sign applies to. The ones who can disrupt an entire restaurant for hours. For the most part I am of the "If you don't like kids, stay home" fan club but when it comes to my friend's son, I can completely understand why people don't like it. I WILL NOT go out with her any more if he is going to be there. I don't want to go out and be absolutely miserable and that is what it is every time with him...it's not a once in a while thing. You can just see the people around us thinking "my goodness, someone needs to take that kid home". Even the ones with kids..the best is when he goes to a stranger's table and gets their kids all riled up.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LeftField*
Still, some of the most obnoxious and disruptive behavior I've seen in public has been from adults. No one calls them "brats".


I will!!! They're brats!

Naaah, they're worse, actually. They're boors. Cretins. Miscreants.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *workingon4*
Or even better....when I get stuck next to some "guys" who think that cussing is a part of every single sentence they speak, I just LOVE THAT. I would much rather see a sign that says "Inside voices please and if you must cuss, do it elsewhere". Because children can be nasty little things, but that is part of what I love about them.


Tee hee. My chatty little toddler cusses like a sailor







What kind of sign does she need?

In all seriousness, I really do not know where I stand on this. Dd has gone through times when we really could not take her anywhere without risking the disturbance of others. They have been brief periods but during those times we avoided restaurants and unnecessary errands. That has been me in the dressing room. Dh was on extended travel and I needed black pants for a concert the next day. Dd was happy until I got naked then wanted to go RIGHT NOW. Obviously, I had to get my clothing back on while cooing "just a minute sweety.....I cannot walk around the mall with no pants...." She usually enjoyed shopping trips at that time and I had no reason to suspect that she would not enjoy this one. I do find myself annoyed with other children's behavior. I am easily annoyed. But I have always considered that my problem just like I am annoyed by classic rock and the color pink. But we have always removed dd from places when it was clear that her behavior was going to affect others and that it was unlikely to improve. It was almost always because she was unhappy there and leaving not only saved others from being disturbed but also saved dd from being miserable.

BTW, not sure where you all live but others around here are always happy to help with small children. Dd is usually happy enough to watch me get my hair cut or to ride in the cart at the co-op but she usually also gets played with by the not-busy-at-the-time salon employees and fed custom made treats from the co-op deli. Hostesses at restaurants used to wisk her off to go see the fish tank (when she was more on the baby end of age) and the post office people take her behind the counter to get weighed on thier big scale. Hostesses now bring out a dish of cut-up fruit or pickles while we are waiting to place our order. The only place I have really struggled and had people look on blankly was on planes. And having been a frequent business traveller before dd was born, I can kind of understand why no one was happy to see or help us. Planes are a lose-lose situation.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper*
BTW, not sure where you all live but others around here are always happy to help with small children. Dd is usually happy enough to watch me get my hair cut or to ride in the cart at the co-op but she usually also gets played with by the not-busy-at-the-time salon employees and fed custom made treats from the co-op deli. Hostesses at restaurants used to wisk her off to go see the fish tank (when she was more on the baby end of age) and the post office people take her behind the counter to get weighed on thier big scale. Hostesses now bring out a dish of cut-up fruit or pickles while we are waiting to place our order. The only place I have really struggled and had people look on blankly was on planes. And having been a frequent business traveller before dd was born, I can kind of understand why no one was happy to see or help us. Planes are a lose-lose situation.

Wow! Where do you live???


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## PMolly (Dec 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *workingon4*
THESE are the kinds of people that I personally think that sign applies to. The ones who can disrupt an entire restaurant for hours.

But if she thinks everyone enjoys it, would she/"THESE kind of people" even pay attention to the sign? What good is a sign if those to whom it is directed don't pay attention to it, except to make the more sensitive moms anxious?

I agree with previous comments. Lots of people behave badly in public - a handful of them are children and they get singled out for it.


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## workingon4 (Aug 22, 2006)

You have a good point PMolly...she probably wouldn't realize it. There are moms out there (myself included) who would just assume no child at all is welcome in that place. Like mentioned before, even well behaved children have their moments, I know my boys sure do!!! Get them in a supermarket and they sometimes get a little nutty. I would probably sit there and over think it...well how do I know my well behaved children aren't going to act up this one time? How do I know my 3yo isn't going to fall and get hurt and start wailing in pain? Are they going to ask me to leave? Then after over thinking it...I would just go to a place that didn't care and never go to the other place again.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PMolly*
But if she thinks everyone enjoys it, would she/"THESE kind of people" even pay attention to the sign? What good is a sign if those to whom it is directed don't pay attention to it, except to make the more sensitive moms anxious?

I agree with previous comments. Lots of people behave badly in public - a handful of them are children and they get singled out for it.

The restraunt owners can point the sign out to such people and ask them to leave if they won't comply. I don't mind signs like that at all. We went to a restraunt with a similar sign. When our son started crying because he was tired and hungry and overstimulated (he was 2) I asked the waitor if we could have our food to go please (it is the curteous thing to do in any restraunt). The manager came to our table and thanked us for being so considerate and gave us the meal for half price.


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## menudo (May 21, 2002)

Pre kids-kids cryign and acting up never bothered me-but that wasme.

Then I had DD. Easy going, listened very well. We took the bus (Greyhound) often but I took it at nights so she could sleep. Rare occasions we took teh approx. 2 hour ride during the day. Once she slept but a Dad and his mayb 1yo-18month old DDwere aboard. It was nto too crowded, several children. Teh little girl was acting up-slapping him in the face (like babies do). I was impressed with his handling of it! He did all he could to get her to chill out. And then.. THE BUS DRIVER YELLS! " Shut that kid up or I am kickign you off! " (On the Turnpike?!?!) I jumped up! I walked to his seat, openly said he was doing a great job and thedriver was wrong. I offered to help out. Another Mom then chimed in. It was nice. We all helped out and the angry driver just shut up...
Then another time a business man freaked on my QUIETLY babling baby. A woman had to hold me back. When we parked he ran off! lol

But in general DD was so easy. Then I had DS. Oh the public incidents I have had! On rare occasion we attempt a restaurant, I have carried him outside. I neverlethim go wild, but am often told I need to "beat his ass". I mean we all know that will make him less wild, right?

So it is a no win situation!


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
Yes, but let me point out that the restaurants in question were not being "negative toward all children before any rowdy behavior happens." They're specifically pointing out that children _are_ welcome but that rowdy behavior from them (and, I think one can quite safely assume, from any patron) is _not_ welcome at all.

I was responding more to the negative attitude toward children that was expanded upon in this thread rather than the specific article or a specific restaurant's right to refuse service to a rowdy patron.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyzombiecat*
I was responding more to the negative attitude toward children that was expanded upon in this thread rather than the specific article or a specific restaurant's right to refuse service to a rowdy patron.

I don't recall seeing a negative attitude toward children, I believe this thread has universally acknowledged that there are some problem *parents* out there that result in certain behaviors in children, but that's it.

Nobody is blaming the kids here, not that I see anyway.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

"In other words, I think it's great that children are going to museums but those strollers can be huge."

Not everyone has the upper body strength and endurance to wear a baby all day while they go through a museum. I can see having them bring a little umbrella stroller, but then they've probably got to cart the diaper bag. I don't think it's about the huge strollers, just about being polite. Be careful... Don't ram people...Don't stand right in the way. You just have to be reasonable!

"Would it be safe to assume that most are residing in the U.S.?"

Yes, and I think it's because America is the land of entitlement. Everyone feels like they have all of these birth rights, such as to smoke in public and pollute the air--or to pick and choose who eats dinner in the restaurants they like. We all feel entitled to happiness, to having it all, and we don't really care if it bothers others. There are the parents who feel their kids are entitled to be monsters, and then there are the ones who feel they're entitled to not be bothered in the least by kids. It's really a combination of the parents AND the intolerant ones. Parents should make an effort and be reasonable, not let their kids be totally wild and nuts...but others need to realize that those kids have as much right to giggle as they do to roar with laughter at a joke.

"how to you judge if a parent is just being inconsiderate by not "controling" their child or the child is just having a bad day and the parent just simply can't put up the fight anymore?"

You can just walk up to them and politely express your concern. Instead of saying "Your child is bothering me," say something sympathetic like "Bad day?" And then see their response. If they say "Yes, I just don't know what it is today with him...*sigh*" ten you should probably just be understanding. But if they say "Oh yeah, he's just a big ball of energy all the time." Then I think it's safe to assume this is the norm and to go ahead and say "Well, you gotta get that kid in line."

And I think it's really more of judging whether the kid's behavior is reasonable or not. Is it hurting me? Can I block it out? Is it worse behavior than others around me or me myself? Is it preventing me from doing what I'm doing? Is this a place where this is appropriate?


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers*
The restraunt owners can point the sign out to such people and ask them to leave if they won't comply. I don't mind signs like that at all. We went to a restraunt with a similar sign. When our son started crying because he was tired and hungry and overstimulated (he was 2) I asked the waitor if we could have our food to go please (it is the curteous thing to do in any restraunt). The manager came to our table and thanked us for being so considerate and gave us the meal for half price.

















: Totally what we would do (and have done - but no half price?) too!


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## Fiercemama (May 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
Okay, would some folks please get *off* the high horses before y'all get a nosebleed, okay??

That said, this is absolutely _not_ age-based discrimination; it is _behavior-based_ discrimination. Rest assured that if an adult were to scream, run around the restaurant, throw food, and disrupt patrons, they wouldn't just be given dirty looks. The police would be called. In short, the behavior is the problem and not the age in and of itself.

The restaurants in question are _not_ banning children as a class (another reason why the PC police have just written out a bad ticket here). That indeed _would_ be age-based discrimination; however, the restauranteurs are asserting their rights as business owners to have their patrons dine in peace and to behave appropriately in much the same way that some other restaurants advertise, "No shoes, no shirt, no service." That is hardly age-based discrimination; it's about behavior that disturbs the clientele or is in violation of a health code.

A child's running around and throwing food is a liability and a danger not only to himself, but to other patrons and to the restaurant. Recently, we had a very long thread about allergens. A child's throwing a handful of crab at someone who was seriously allergic to shellfish could literally cause that person to go into anaphylactic shock and die -- and that's not such a farfetched scenario either. More immediately and practically, a child running under a waitress carrying a hot pot of coffee or a steaming bowl of soup could land himself and others in the ICU all ready to make acquaintance with Mr. Skin Graft. Unfortunately, the restaurant itself might be held liable for the damage incurred as a result of the child's behavior. I don't blame them a bit for insisting on some basic level of social appropriateness.

It has very little to do with children as so-called "second-class citizens" and a great deal to do with certain behaviors being dangerous and life-threatening. Again, just to be absolutely crystal-clear, *does anyone at all* think that if an adult were to engage in (for example), throwing food, running around in the path of waitstaff, or shouting loudly enough to disturb others, that the restaurant would allow that behavior to continue? Really?

Well, as many of the stories here from mums illustrate, they are given the stinkeye strictly based on the age of their children the moment they step foot into an establishment, regardless of the behaviour that may or may not ensue. And while we may not have had to deal with anyone throwing food, there are certainly lots of times that I've had to put up with adults fighting, shouting into cel phones, talking through performances, being drunk and disorderly, etc without any interruption from the management.

I'm not saying that kids should be given free rein in any and all settings. But I don't think that its right for an establishment to turn me or my family away strictly based on my child's age. I'm all for age appropriate settings and activities.

Case in point. Earlier this week, my employer invited out the office at the last minute to a very upscale restaurant with one of our out-of-town service providers. I said thanks, but I have to pick up DD, since DH is working late, fully expecting to bow out. Boss says that DD is welcome to come. I'm confident that DD has appropriate manners for the outing (she's 4.5 yrs). I make sure she was as well dressed as possible from clean clothes in her cubby, brushed her hair and washed her face. I came armed with paper, pens, a book, a small soft toy, as well as snacks, in case Asian fusion cuisine was not her thing. I was also totally prepared to leave at any time should the evening not go well (it did). It was a Monday night and there was only one other party in the restaurant.

Where I live (Ontario), discrimination based on either age or family status is prohibited. I imagine if a local business here posted a sign like the one featured in the photo with the article, they'd be facing a human rights complaint - a business's worst nightmare. Both private and public businesses have a duty to accommodate, unless they can prove that there is a bona fide reason not to. The Human Rights Commission is pretty demanding in its assessment of bona fides. I like the following interpretation from the Commission's website, which recommends that businesses set essential requirements in their establishments, rather than across the board age restrictions (emphasis mine):

Quote:

Concerns about children's behaviour sometimes lead to age-based restrictions on accessing services. For example, service providers may implement formal policies denying access to individuals who are under a certain age. Since children are as variable in their behaviour as adults, it may be problematic to use age-based restrictions to exclude children from a service on the grounds that their presence is in itself incompatible with the service being offered. It may be more appropriate to specify the essential requirements for accessing the service in question: those who cannot meet these essential requirements (whatever their age) may be excluded. For example, it is more appropriate for a swimming pool to designate times and spaces for "lane swimming" and "free swimming", rather than "adult-only swimming" and "family swimming", since there will be some children who are proficient swimmers and some adults who are boisterous. It will also generally be more appropriate to specify appropriate behaviours ("Patrons must remain seated at all times") rather than imposing age-based restrictions ("Children under the age of three will not be admitted").
http://www.ohrc.on.ca/english/consul...#_Toc102199943


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## LolaK (Jan 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
A reader comment

"I reported my dislike while the kid danced in the open area and eyeballed other customers attempting to dine."


This was the one reader comment that really struck me as well. Did this woman read her own comment before she posted it. Am I the only one who thought she sounded unbelievably stupid? Are you kidding me - the kid LOOKED at people? It's a kid not a gorgon lady, you aren't going to be turned to stone for crying out loud.

I have an 18 month old and have flown quite a bit with her, I don't let her bother other passengers and I pick up after her. I nurse her constantly on flights so she doesn't cry and I thank flight attendants for every little thing they do - just to be polite.

I do think this is mostly a cultural issue. In Greece for instance, where my grandmother lives, children go everywhere with their parents, including out to dinner at 9pm. No one gives the kids the hairy eyeball, everyone expects that kids are part of the family and they are treated as such. It isn't as if Greek kids are way better behaved either, they are simply accepted members of society. The other side of that coin is that there is a lot more extended family involvement over there so if a kid is acting up at the dinner table, there may be an aunt or grandfather who gets up and takes the kid to look at something else or run around outside.

I also had a man at a restauraunt in Greece tell my grandmother that "anything to do with a mother and baby is fine." This was in response to a nursing in public question I had asked - it is just a whole other mindset over there.


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *muckemom*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
We have a Greek restaurant with a sign on the door that says "Well Behaved Children Only".

Not that this is at all relevant to the thread, but it reminded me of a sign that we saw in a china shop in Carmel, it said, "Unsupervised Children Will Be Given Espresso and Free Puppies"

It made me giggle

LOL, I work at a coffee shop and we have that sign posted. It makes parents giggle...especially when my 19 month old is running around like an ape and another girl that works there has her 4 month old sitting on her hip while she takes orders









I hate how unfriendly society is toward children. And the sad part it's not even the older generation thats doing it! It's the 20-30 somethings that feel it is their right not to be slighly inconvienced or bothered by those around them.

I've had nothing but wonderful comments from grandma aged people, I only get dirty looks from the people my own age and thats really sad.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat*
I don't recall seeing a negative attitude toward children, I believe this thread has universally acknowledged that there are some problem *parents* out there that result in certain behaviors in children, but that's it.

Nobody is blaming the kids here, not that I see anyway.

I was responding to the negative attitude toward children *from society in general* that people are bringing up here. People (society) sometimes see children negatively just because they are children no matter how they are behaving. I am not referring to anyone in this thread or the specific article that spawned this discussion. Is that more clear?


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Quote:

does anyone at all think that if an adult were to engage in (for example), throwing food, running around in the path of waitstaff, or shouting loudly enough to disturb others, that the restaurant would allow that behavior to continue? Really?
Just to be clear, I have gone to restaurants where adults were throwing food and shouting loudly enough to disturb others, and nothing has been done about the behavior. I've seen adults acting far worse than my son ever has, and nothing is done. They don't even get the same number of rude looks, doing that, as my son gets if he bangs his fork on the table at the age of 14 months. Now, I don't know of any adults who run around in the path of the waitstuff, unless they are drunk, but I really doubt they'd be kicked out for this either. Why? Here's the answer...because adults have money, and kids don't. Places like McDonald's will probably be nicer to families and kids, whereas places like nicer restaurants will probably be more lenient with adults than with an adult's children--because adults that come in childless make up a larger percentage of their patronage most likely.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
Just to be clear, I have gone to restaurants where adults were throwing food and shouting loudly enough to disturb others, and nothing has been done about the behavior. I've seen adults acting far worse than my son ever has, and nothing is done. They don't even get the same number of rude looks, doing that, as my son gets if he bangs his fork on the table at the age of 14 months. Now, I don't know of any adults who run around in the path of the waitstuff, unless they are drunk, but I really doubt they'd be kicked out for this either. Why? Here's the answer...because adults have money, and kids don't.

I don't think that's the only reason. I suspect there's also the fear factor. Who are most people going to feel like tackling on the disturbance issue...a mom out with a couple of kids, or a rowdy adult who is fully grown and already demonstrating that he's too drunk/self-absorbed/whatever to care what anyone else thinks about him? I suspect that most people feel that the mom is a _lot_ less likely to clock them if thwarted.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
I don't think that's the only reason. I suspect there's also the fear factor. Who are most people going to feel like tackling on the disturbance issue...a mom out with a couple of kids, or a rowdy adult who is fully grown and already demonstrating that he's too drunk/self-absorbed/whatever to care what anyone else thinks about him? I suspect that most people feel that the mom is a _lot_ less likely to clock them if thwarted.

Wow... that reminds me of the time my son had a HUGE screaming fits in the public Library parking lot. I couldn't calm him down. I kept walking ahead and telling him to follow me, rather than be at the whim of his demands at the moment. We were 10 feet from my car when some man (looked like a normal contractor) YELLED







at him to STOP IT RIGHT NOW! Figuring that the shock of being yelled at would do the trick.

No. It only made him more hysterical and now he was fearful of this dude who yelled at him and then I had to calm him down from that.

Sigh.

I (already working very hard to remain as calm as possible with DS) was calm enough NOT to react to Stooopid. I didn't say anything snappy back, because it would have been POINTless. But I think DS would have appreciated me sticking up for him.







(What to do? I seriously was not intimidated and have no problem telling someone twice my size to cut it out, but it wasn't the right moment. I know it would have helped DS to "feel better." but oh well...)

DH pointed out that he would not have dared say anything if he were there. Truedad.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyzombiecat*
I was responding to the negative attitude toward children *from society in general* that people are bringing up here. People (society) sometimes see children negatively just because they are children no matter how they are behaving. I am not referring to anyone in this thread or the specific article that spawned this discussion. Is that more clear?

Oh, okay, got it. Thanks for clarifying.

On that point, I agree.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Quote:

I don't think that's the only reason. I suspect there's also the fear factor. Who are most people going to feel like tackling on the disturbance issue...a mom out with a couple of kids, or a rowdy adult who is fully grown and already demonstrating that he's too drunk/self-absorbed/whatever to care what anyone else thinks about him? I suspect that most people feel that the mom is a lot less likely to clock them if thwarted.
Yeah, I think that's definitely a factor, too. Very good point. I imagine that they see a passive aggressive parent, with a rowdy kid, especially a mom, and probably assume that the parent is going to be pretty passive aggressive about being asked to leave as well--whereas a grown man being rowdy is probably going to make a huge fuss, possibly even have it escalate into a legal matter.

"We were 10 feet from my car when some man (looked like a normal contractor) YELLED at him to STOP IT RIGHT NOW! Figuring that the shock of being yelled at would do the trick.

No. It only made him more hysterical and now he was fearful of this dude who yelled at him and then I had to calm him down from that."

This is why no one has the right or duty to try to parent other people's children! If there's something that could be done, the parent is probably already doing it. What could a stranger do for a child that the parent could?


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

Oh man, as if Bush weren't enough...I WANT TO MOVE TO ONTARIO!!!


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

My daughter's favorite restaurant is one that has a sign up saying, "Children who cannot behave will be asked to leave."

I love it. We bring our children everywhere, and we've never had any trouble . . . but I like the idea of being able to go places without worrying that other people's kids will ruin it for us.

I would not, on the other hand, patronize a business that banned children based on age alone. I think behavior standards are perfectly acceptable, though.


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## aprilushka (Aug 28, 2005)

On the stroller issue-- the aquarium in Baltimore solved that problem by banning all strollers-- they give you a free carrier to take in babies with you.


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