# Secret of Parenting by Wolf: discuss?



## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I noticed someone else in another thread is reading this book. I just read it based on a recommendation by alexa07, who has mentioned it a few times. Checked it out of the library and liked it so much, I am going to buy a copy.

It was full of the kind of ideas that I feel I would never have thought of by myself in a million years.

I like how he stresses that children, particularly those with good attachments to their caregivers, inherently WANT to please us. I loved his suggestion of "waiting it out".

For example, you ask your child to pick up their toys and they come up with a million reasons why they can't. First, you stop the discussion from getting any further than the first two times you ask them to pick up the toys (avoiding such digressions as "but it's not *fair*!" or "you never make Suzy pick up her toys - you love her better, don't you!", etc). And if they still don't pick them up, you walk over to them, stand there, and just wait for them to do it. All the while with a look of displeasure.

Now the author knows it sounds crazy, but swears it works, and I believe alexa07 said the same thing. I can't wait to try it! (DD is a little young for that sort of thing yet).

There were one or two things I didn't really agree with him about, but they were fairly minor. Anyone else read this book? What did you think of it?


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## bunny (Dec 2, 2002)

I've also noticed the many reccomendations, and plan to read this book. But I am only going to receive a copy in a few weeks, so I have nothing to contribute yet. I look forward to seeing others' opinions.

bunny


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## woo27ks (Jan 15, 2003)

i have been reading this book off and on for awhile. the whole idea regarding baby self and mature self really made a lot of sense to me. i have been doing the decide, stand fast, disengage and it works really well for us. i've always done the first two - but the key is disengaging. i love his story about the red balloon - and having to grieve the loss of the balloon. it cracked me up. now, i've never been good with redirection or distraction because really neither one of my kids fall for it very well. and i see when a grandparent tries it - it just prolongs the whole fit and never works. there is so much in that book that made total sense to me. it's not a quick fix - it's a way of thinking and something that will work over a period of time. i also liked the idea that if you want them to do something on they're own even though they don't feel like it - for us it's been picking up toys as they play throughout the day- they must have a lot of practice with it. we've been doing that lately and it's getting easier. i only do it when i have the time to really just sit and wait. it doesn't take long and it's much more pleasant than getting really upset. i gotta run - it's late and they'll be up early. let's talk about what you didn't like. i'm interested to hear.


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## NoHiddenFees (Mar 15, 2002)

This is the only book I recommend to men, and the only discipline book I asked DH to read (I don't include him with other men for some reason). I harbor an active dislike for both Sears -- "your children can be just as perfect as mine if you can only be as good a parent as I" -- and the Positive Discipline books (dunno, they just rubbed me the wrong way). Pantley is OK, but waaaayyyyy too upbeat for me. I know that Kurchinka and Coloroso (sp?) are big faves on this forum, but, although I enjoyed reading them and often think about them, in practical terms they are just too touchy feely for me to implement. I want something a bit more straightforward when it comes to discipline. It would take me years to internalize the touchy feely stuff... meanwhile dd would have grown up.









So, while there are a few techniques I'd either modify or just not use, I love _The Secret of Parenting_. I love that there are millions of concrete examples. I love that he drives home you could be repeating yourself and acting as reinforcement for years but it can still make a difference... and to boot tells us that HIS son didn't take the garbage out without reminding until well into his teen years. I think that disengaging is not only potentially a great parenting tool, but will also model a healthy behaviour for children: it shows that some approaches are not productive (or are downright harmful) and should be ignored -- boy, when I think of all the crap I willingly put up with from men in my single life... but that's another story. Anyway, I hope that DD has more self respect and doesn't fall into a similar pattern of accomodation.


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## woo27ks (Jan 15, 2003)

another tactic of wolf's that really works for us is waiting until later to discuss. instead of talking about reasons during the tantrum i disengage and wait until later to discuss the undesirable behavior. my 3.5 yr old was going through a hitting stage when i would ask him to do something he didn't want to and instead of addressing it while he's flailing about and crying i would wait until later after he had calmed down and such. i'm anxious to hear what piglet didn't like about the book.
i also agree with hiddenfees regarding the being an example to our children on how to react to bad behavior. it's such a great book!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

My complaints are minor.

I loved the disengage technique, and all the techniques he gave. But there were some situations he used as examples where I don't think I would have used that technique and dismissed the child so readily. Where I might be willing to engage in an exchange with the child, to allow them to express themselves even "in the heat of the moment". I felt he went a bit too far sometimes, sending the message that nothing the child has to say at that moment is of importance, ever.

I'm sure he didn't mean it that way, but I fear that ended up being the underlying message sometimes.


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## PaganScribe (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*
I like how he stresses that children, particularly those with good attachments to their caregivers, inherently WANT to please us. I loved his suggestion of "waiting it out".

For example, you ask your child to pick up their toys and they come up with a million reasons why they can't. First, you stop the discussion from getting any further than the first two times you ask them to pick up the toys (avoiding such digressions as "but it's not *fair*!" or "you never make Suzy pick up her toys - you love her better, don't you!", etc). And if they still don't pick them up, you walk over to them, stand there, and just wait for them to do it. All the while with a look of displeasure.

Now the author knows it sounds crazy, but swears it works, and I believe alexa07 said the same thing. I can't wait to try it! (DD is a little young for that sort of thing yet).
*
I really want to get this book, but my terrible local library doesn't have it, and I haven't gotten around to ordering it online.

I wanted to address this, though -- it's a technique I use with my high school students ALL THE TIME -- and it works *great* -- and they're older kids who may or may not be attachment parented. It prevents escalation and preserves the kids' dignity, which makes it a great tool particularly since they are in front of a large group of their peers.

A lot of times if I want to speed up the process I vary it by saying, for example, "Could you please move to this seat over here?" That's not fair, you're picking on me. "I'm sorry you feel that way; could you please move to this seat over here?" But I wasn't the one making noise, I shouldn't have to move! "I'm sorry you feel that way; could you please move to this seat over here?"

And in five years of teaching high school, I've only ever had to write five students up with office referrals -- I contribute a lot of that success to teaching much like I parent -- doing my best to meet all the needs my kids have while they're in my care.

But my son is only 9 months old, so I haven't gotten a chance to use techniques like this with him yet.


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## woo27ks (Jan 15, 2003)

hey paganscribe,

i bought mine on www.half.com and paid very little for it.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I also liked what he said about adults having "baby selves", too. How we put up with alot of stresses and things when we are at work or out with other people, and when we come home that is where we feel safe enough to let our "baby self" come out. We don't want to deal with stresses and demands.

He says that kids are like that, too. Like they'll be totally well behaved at daycare or school, then let loose at home. He says to take that as a bit of a compliment, that they feel secure enough to let their baby selves out around you.

I was worried sometimes, that his descriptions of the "baby self" made kids out to be a bunch of selfish whiners who will do just about anything to get out of "behaving". The message WAS in there that this is actually developmentally normal and appropriate for kids of a certain age, but again I feared that some people who come into discipline with that attitude would see it reflected in this book. Again, a minor complaint.

I think if you are reading it from the GD perspective, that kids act developmentally appropriately, even if it totally drives us nuts!, then his message comes across well.


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

Can you guys explain a little more about the "disengaging" aspect? I know that's a valuable technique, especially when your boundaries are being crossed, but I guess it sounds a little harsh to me in the context of picking up toys...but that may be just b/c I don't understand precisely what is meant. In the toy scenario I would actually become MORE active rather than disengaging. I'm really curious - can you explain a little more? I mean, I have this vision of me just staring at my kid while they stare back and I know that's not what's meant.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*I like how he stresses that children, particularly those with good attachments to their caregivers, inherently WANT to please us. I loved his suggestion of "waiting it out".*
Jean Liedloff who wrote The Continuum Concept says the same thing.

My DS & I have a great attachment, but we're going through a very bratty phase... "I WANT IT RIGHT NOWWWWWWW!!!!" which is embarassing and frustrating. I hope it ends soon. And... he will act bratty / contrary on purpose... to frustrate both of us... to get a response. Not all day, but sometimes.

I have never heard of the book, but I'm going to order it on Half.com. Thanks for the heads-up!


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## artgirl (May 17, 2002)

All of you out there that have at least two kids... I agree with some of the disengaging techniques when dealing with a tantrum BUT what do you all think of the advice in regards to sibling fighting? I thought it seemed a little cold. Siblings can be very mean to one another. I think my brothers actually did some lasting damage to my older sister by their constant teasing. I think it's a great concept that by not interfering you are never showing any favoritism BUT are you also showing that you don't care? I don't know because I only have one right now but I also think that if one of my kids was mercilessly picking on the other I'd want to teach them that it isn't nice to treat ANYONE like that?? I guess I just disagree with the theory that what your brothers and sisters say doesn't have an effect because its just coming from "them". You do learn to disregard MOST of it but I don't think you can blow off all the teasing, especially if it hits close to home. Thoughts?
I also wonder how this fits with attachment parenting... this disengaging?
Like I said... I can see where it is useful but I think I'd personally like to explain to dd my reasoning first, and then disengage if she seems to be irrational about it. Maybe that's what he was saying anyway?? Just seems kinda cold to me here and there...







:


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## woo27ks (Jan 15, 2003)

he doesn't say to never discuss it. he says that discussing it during the fit doesn't work. it just prolongs the fit. after everyone has calmed down he says if you want you can revisit and discuss the situation. you really need to read the book to understand his theories. i don't remember any discussion in his book about siblings.

gotta run - i hear crying.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by artgirl_
*Siblings can be very mean to one another. I think my brothers actually did some lasting damage to my older sister by their constant teasing. I think it's a great concept that by not interfering you are never showing any favoritism BUT are you also showing that you don't care? I don't know because I only have one right now but I also think that if one of my kids was mercilessly picking on the other I'd want to teach them that it isn't nice to treat ANYONE like that?? I guess I just disagree with the theory that what your brothers and sisters say doesn't have an effect because its just coming from "them". You do learn to disregard MOST of it but I don't think you can blow off all the teasing, especially if it hits close to home. Thoughts?*
I agree with you. I do think that at some point a big person (the adult) has to step in and protect the little person (person being teased, which goes past a healthy point.)

I haven't read his books yet.








I am thrilled... I just learned that my local cooperative pre-school is going to have him speak as part of their annual Parent Talk program. Last year Jim Trelease (Read Aloud author) spoke and this year Mary Sheedy Kurcinka "Raising Your Spirited Child" will also speak.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by artgirl_
*Siblings can be very mean to one another. I think my brothers actually did some lasting damage to my older sister by their constant teasing. I think it's a great concept that by not interfering you are never showing any favoritism BUT are you also showing that you don't care? I don't know because I only have one right now but I also think that if one of my kids was mercilessly picking on the other I'd want to teach them that it isn't nice to treat ANYONE like that?? I guess I just disagree with the theory that what your brothers and sisters say doesn't have an effect because its just coming from "them". You do learn to disregard MOST of it but I don't think you can blow off all the teasing, especially if it hits close to home. Thoughts?*
I agree with you. I do think that at some point a big person (the adult) has to step in and protect the little person (person being teased, which goes past a healthy point.)

I haven't read his books yet.








I am thrilled... I just learned that my local cooperative pre-school is going to have him speak as part of their annual Parent Talk program.


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## NoHiddenFees (Mar 15, 2002)

I've lent my book out, but IIRC correctly, he doesn't recommend any discipline techniques other than removing the child or redirecting for young children... maybe under 3? His time out technique involves allowing the child to decide when to rejoin the family rather than having a set time, but I am uncomfortable with the idea of leaving a 3 year old to work things out alone their room. This is the main modification I'll be making.

WRT disengaging, the way I read it was that it's best to disengage before the situation turns into a power struggle for the sake of a power struggle. The examples he uses are all in reference to this. We have different expectations of our children at different ages. I can understand why the thought of cleaning up a disaster area of a play room or bedroom might be overwhelming to a young child. Heck, it's sometimes overwhelming to me. Since I wouldn't require my young child to tackle such a big job on their own, there wouldn't be a power struggle over it.

Sometimes when reading I was a bit uncomfortable with the thought of how people who practice a parenting style opposed to mine would read it and overuse or misuse the disengagement technique. However, it's doubtful those people would read a discipline book that discourages punishment in any form, and so the point is probably moot.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

canadiyank: the "disengaging" basically means you stop the conversation from progressing. he talks about how kids will try to get you to divert on some other tangent to avoid having to actually do what you're asking. example: "honey, could you please pick up your toys?", "why are you always making me pick up my toys?". "honey, I asked you to please pick up your toys. i won't ask you again". "but moooom, you're so unfair! you always make me pick them up but you never make Jane pick hers up!"...this is where you disengage. you simply stop responding to them. you walk over to them and just stand there, looking none too happy, and wait. when they realize you aren't going to engage them in a conversation, and you aren't going anywhere, they will pick up the toys.

I can see in many situations how this would work really well. If the child does try to bring up something that you think is serious, just bring it up with them later, but not at the time you are trying to get them to do whatever it is...

artgirl: I think I read quite quickly through the sibling section and I do remember thinking what you did.

there were definitely examples where I would not have been so quick to disengage. But the overall book was wonderful, I thought. And gave me many techniques to try.


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

Thanks Piglet68 - that explains it. I think it's just the word "disengaging" that I don't like, LOL, since I'm constantly trying to engage my child. The technique sounds great - it's really about stopping the power struggle, eh? I do this often with my toddler (I don't have older kids).


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

For sibs, "Siblings Without Rivalry" is excellent.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by canadiyank_
*I think it's just the word "disengaging" that I don't like, LOL, since I'm constantly trying to engage my child.*
Actually, I think what you said here sums up why I sometimes felt uncomfortable reading the book. I've been reading so much about how to facilitate communication with your child, leaving the child to feel as though they can talk with you about anything. Then here's this book that tells you to stop the conversation before it gets going, lol!

But really when you read the book you see that it isn't about not listening. It's just that children (and sometimes adults) use diversionary techniques as a means of drawing out the situation (and I don't mean this to sound malicious; he explains how it isn't like that). I recognize that within myself sometimes, and since I'm also a talker who loves to get the last word in, it will take some restraint on my part! :LOL


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## artgirl (May 17, 2002)

This book helped me understand my own childhood better and my relationship with my husband as well. Separating out the "baby self" and the "mature self" really simplifies things and helps make sense of the way we act sometimes. My own mother was NOT tolerant of my "baby self" when I was small and I think made me feel very bad about myself in that way... where she could have been nuturing. I really do not want to do that to my dd. I love the section called "two sided message" which says

Quote:

This two-sided message says to your child that though the baby self may not always get its way and may at times need to be controlled, it is not bad and does not need to be stamped out. And this statement teaches the profoundly important lesson that all of the flawed, impulsive, babyish parts of children are not bad, but are just a part of being a child, of being human. As a result, children grow into adults who are not alienated from all the babyish, childish stuff within themselves. They accept these as part of being human, and they can accept these same flaws in others.
That to me is HUGE!


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## Liz (Mar 8, 2002)

I'm part way through this book right now. I like the overall message but don't like his writing style. His examples make all kids sound like constant whiners and his "witty" delivery makes it seem like we shouldn't take any of their wants seriously. I don't think this is the message he wants to communicate but that's the way it comes across to me. My son is also only 3 so not a master whiner yet so maybe I would feel differently if I had an older child.

artgirl - the passage you quote was highlighted in my library copy so hopefully that message is getting through to most readers!

Coincidentally, I just read Siblings without Rivalry for help dealing with my son's relationship with his cousin. When one kid is picking on another they say to coach the picked on to express their feelings to the picker on and say in the picker on's earshot something complimentary like "and I know he/she will understand because he/she doesn't like to feel that way either" or "I know he/she's a really good listener" or "I know he/she is fair and you can work something out". It's worked really well for us so far.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Liz, yes that is what I thought, too, about his tone.

Since your child is around 3 years old, maybe you could try some of his techniques (like the standing-there-until-they-do-it thing) and letting us know if they work? Or is 3 still too young for that (I'm afraid I'm terribly ignorant about the ages ahead of my DD, lol).


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## Liz (Mar 8, 2002)

I'll do that Piglet but he's being strangely cooperative lately.









I've been thinking about the disengaging thing allot and I remembered a success I had when ds was about 18 mos. He got into screaming for awhile. Actually he'd always been into screaming but it had been just a cool noise he could make (not so cool for us). He started doing it with a sneaky smile on his face which really pushed my buttons and I really lost it more than a few times. Then one day when I was changing his diaper and we were playing and tickling etc. he did it. I was so disappointed that he'd ruined this wonderful moment I just looked away and dropped all emotion from my face. I continued diapering like a robot, no eye contact, nothing, but I could really tell he was watching me very closely. He tested it a few times over the next few days and I reacted the same way each time then HE STOPPED SCREAMING! I was so proud of myself.

Anyway, this is now my number one piece of parenting advice. Learn to recognise when your child is trying to push your buttons and don't react. Not a seething, teeth clenched, stoney silence but just a calm, cool and collected silence. Or maybe one sentence saying you don't like what they just did but do not engage in the power struggle. I get strength from knowing I am not giving in to him even if I am cleaning up the mess I asked him to clean up because I am not getting mad and THAT is what he really wants.

This makes my son sound like a diabolical little brat and he really isn't. We just get into these vicious circles occasionally when something is stressing us out.


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## z-girl (Nov 28, 2001)

I know that this is an old thread, but I'm finally reading the book now and remembered this thread. I agree that his approach could be interpreted totally differently if you weren't into GD. It might be easy to disengage with an attitude! My complaints are minor- I don't like how he calls the baby self "piggy" and I'd never leave my kids to tantrum alone in their room. I'm finding the disengaging approach to be really helpful. Sometimes I just forget to not continue things and Wolf's advice is really helpful.

Last night DD had a nightmare. She snuggled next to me, but long after she was conforted, she kept wanting attention (asking questions, kicking, etc). I decided to disengage, which I've never done in the night. I said goodnight, rolled over with my back to her, but with her spooned around me. When she asked more questions, or kicked more, I played asleep. She fidgeted, hemmed and hawed, and finally got bored or tired and went back to sleep, without me answering a million questions, rubbing her back, talking, etc. I don't mean to sound like I wouldn't help her if she needed me; I did comfort her when she was upset, but at 2.5, she can put herself back to sleep with me by her side. What a concept!

And tonight, DD wanted to do thing after thing before getting ready for bed. Instead of talking about all of them and prolonging the discussion, I just said, "It's time to get ready for bed," in response to each question. And she went to the bathroom with me and brushed her teeth.

I think his examples of the baby self's needs are really helpful and easy to relate too. We all have a babyself! It also helped me remember that I see the babyself the most and that DD is maturing in other worlds.

Anyone else reading or thinking about this book?


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

OK, I know this is an old thread, but I want to throw my .02 in -

I was raised by my grandmother, and she used to do this. It drove me batty. From my perspective, I was raising valid points that were being totally ignored. I felt completely disregarded.

However, I will say that my grandmother and I did not have the best relationship so maybe that was a big part of the problem.


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