# Baby Mirror in car unsafe!



## Flower of Bliss (Jun 13, 2006)

I got my seats checked today. I was told that I should not have a mirror to see my rear facing baby as her face would hit the mirror in an accident. They (nurses and car seat techs) said that they see babies seriously cut by the mirrors. I was also told not to have a shade in my back window.

I never thought of this and never read it in any of the car seat threads I've read. In fact, I've seen the mirrors recommended several times here, so I wanted you all to know too.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Yikes. I didn't know that. Thanks for posting this.


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## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

Yeah they told me that when I got my seat checked too - but the mirror I have is just some kind of shiny soft plastic (?) - there's no glass or anything so I just assumed they meant that SOME kinds are bad. I couldn't see how it would hurt them any more than the toys floating around back there LOL

I think mine was a safety first or next step mirror....maybe look into that kind.

peace,
robyn


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Even if it's not glass or the glass doesn't break, it can still detach from the window and become a projectile and hit your child.


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## KnitterMama (Mar 31, 2005)

Yep to the above - you should look in your car and consider anything that could be a potential projectile.


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## Flower of Bliss (Jun 13, 2006)

Mine's soft plastic, attached so it's above the seat and easily falls back. Still, they said it was a no...

I do start to wonder when you're getting too cautious. Should I not let her play with toys (or only soft cloth ones) in the seat? Should I not have cups in my cup holders (I always have water and/or coffee in the car with me). Should I store her diaper bag in the trunk? What about my cell phone? I know anything can be a projectile, but where do we draw the line?

Still, the mirror is more or less where her head would hit, so I'm sadly taking it down I think.


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## uncertain (Mar 13, 2006)

I think that I'm missing something here - why would her head hit the mirror?? I mean, she's strapped into the carseat, so I don't see why her head would fly so far forward as to hit the mirror. Mine is hooked onto a metal bar behind the car's seat, so I can't see that it would become a projectile in an accident.

ETA, I completely know where you're coming from about "where do we draw the line". I try very hard, though, to minimize the number of potential projectiles in my car, though unfortunately there are still plenty. I do buckle up my diaper bag on the front passenger seat, just like it's a person, though! Also, you can put your water bottle (when you aren't drinking from it), and other potential projectiles on the car floor, and hopefully with lower centers of gravity they are less of a risk of being missiles in the event of a crash (still not as safe as not having them there at all, though).


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Putting a baby in a car is unsafe.


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## julieanne (Oct 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *uncertain* 
I think that I'm missing something here - why would her head hit the mirror?? I mean, she's strapped into the carseat, so I don't see why her head would fly so far forward as to hit the mirror. Mine is hooked onto a metal bar behind the car's seat, so I can't see that it would become a projectile in an accident.
.

In an accident, the whole carseat flies/tips forward and hits the seat back. It looks really weird and scary, but that's what they're designed to do. Most of the mirrors are attached right there, although yours sounds like it might be different if it's behind the seat.


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## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
Putting a baby in a car is unsafe.

Thank you for once again injecting a shred of sanity into the conversation.


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## Flower of Bliss (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
Putting a baby in a car is unsafe.

I agree. I do. I don't want to be over reacting. Putting DD in a car is rather necessary here. I'm not willing to restrict our lives by not driving her anywhere. I'm just getting conflicted on where to draw the line.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I attached dd's mirror to the head rest. I don't think her face could have reached it in accident, but I can see how that might be a problem for the back seat of a sedan. wow.

I'm still glad I used it for my dd. She had severe reflux going on and would vomit a lot, was on a feeding tube that she would try to pull out of her nose. I needed to see what was going on so she wasn't choking on her vomit or tube.


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## uncertain (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *julieanne* 
In an accident, the whole carseat flies/tips forward and hits the seat back. It looks really weird and scary, but that's what they're designed to do. Most of the mirrors are attached right there, although yours sounds like it might be different if it's behind the seat.

Oh, I see now what you mean. Hmmm, well the only solution I can think of in that case is to get a Britax convertible seat that can be tethered in the rf position, that would help it seems (but the disclaimer is that I'm not at all good at physics, so hopefully someone more knowledgeable can chime in on this suggestion..)
I definitely would be kinda lost in the car without my mirror to see rf DS!


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

I was also told that our soft mirror was not safe (several years back when DS was an infant) but I chose to leave it there. It clipped right into my seat with a safety pin and velcro to reenforce it. It was a cheesy elmo mirror someone gave me. I did think that the inspector was being overly cautious or overgeneralizing about mirrors. This was not a glass mirror, I could see how a glass mirror would be dangerous.

Sometimes you just need to take all the facts and make a decision for yourself.


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
Putting a baby in a car is unsafe.









:

I acknowledge the remote risk yet remain pro-mirror for RF babes.


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## MommytoTwo (Jun 20, 2004)

Yeah I heard that too but mine buckles around the headrest... I seriously doubt it would come off, and even if it did, I have a stroller in the trunk and groceries and a diaper bag and CDs and a whole host of other projectiles to worry about. I need to be able to see the kid.


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## eldadeedlit (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bluebottle* 
wow.

the carseat threads on here just baffle me. not driving is seen as some ridiculous option for the rich and unrealistic, so does not need to be discussed. Then since we have all decided we will drive and we feel bad about it we are going to take out our angst over that decision on anyone whose judgment of risk differs from ours.

a soft plastic "mirror", especially one used by the driver to be sure the baby isn't choking to death, does not seem like something to get real concerned about as a potential death missile.

perhaps i am not the best judge: when at home, we don't drive, because we don't want to, so we set up our life without assuming that a car would be a major part of it. we don't have a car, we hardly know anyone with a car, and it works out fine. when we travel, though, i often end up driving again - when i visit my parents, etc - so i am not a total carseat innocent. if i had a soft plastic mirror - though i don't, as those sorts of accessories really only end up with people who drive all the time; we have a carseat, and that's it - i would feel perfectly fine putting it up.

xoa

out ofcuriosity, how do you not drive? How can you get groceries and stuff? I am honestly curious.

Veronica


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## MinnieMouse (Nov 19, 2001)

As a tech I counsel parents on ALL projectiles (not just mirrors or sunshades). Basically I tell parents that if they are comfortable throwing an item at their child's face with all their strength behind it, then it is okay to have it unrestrained in their car (in reality it would be much more force than that in a crash, but it gets the point across). This goes for ANYTHING in the car, umbrellas, pull down sunshades (the clingy ones are fine), "the club," toys, sippy cups, groceries, diaper bags, etc. If a parent has an SUV or minivan w/ a stroller in the back we have a discussion about using tiedowns to secure the stroller.

I'm a little more lax w/ mirrors today than I was about 3-4 years ago. Back then the mirrors attached w/ safety pins and/or velcro, neither of which would withstand the forces of a crash. Most of today's mirrors either clip around the headrest or clip to the tether anchor on the back deck of sedans. "I" am confident w/ that but I leave it to the parent to make the decision after fully discussing all the possible outcomes (which is what we are taught in our cps technician training).


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## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

Well just cause you asked....







I wasn't the one who said I didn't drive but I sympathisize...

A good stroller will help alot with groceries. I often walk to the grocery store. The big heavy stuff goes in the bottom basket and then I either carry DC and put the rest in the seat or hang them off the handle bars. Obviously you can't get a month's worth of groceries this way - we end up going to the grocery every day or every other day. Smaller loads that way









And if you live in a pretty walkable city/town you might not need the car very often. Or if you can take the bus...now how you take groceries on a BUS is beyond me! LOL I guess you could use one of those little wheely carts but I don't think they will let you on with it unless it is folded!

I love my walkable suburban town!









peace,
robyn


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

I'm not Bluebottle, but we've been carfree almost 8 years. We chose to live in an area with good public transit, and to make it a priority when considering places to live. We always rent a place within walking distance of a grocery store. Anything that we can't get at the store within walking distance, we either bring home on the bus or get in a once-a-month trip by car with a friend.

Right now we live in a major temperate city, but I've also managed quite well without a car in a small midwestern town with winters in the -20s. A town I am sure many people assume has no public transit (although it does.) It's really a possible thing if you make it a priority. Considering the impact cars have on the environment and on our health and that of our children, I've made it a major priority to use cars as infrequently as possible.


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## eldadeedlit (Jun 22, 2004)

OK... Yeah I wish I could be carfree. I DESPISE driving but we live in an area that does not have adequate public transportation. I can walk a few places (some restaurants, 7-11, a few boutique type stores, post office, etc.) but for stuff like groceries, I HAVE to drive. And we are quite attached to the area because we live near family, so there you have it.

I really wish there was good public transportation EVERYWHERE though. I hate suburban sprawl.


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## thewaggonerfamily (Oct 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MinnieMouse* 
As a tech I counsel parents on ALL projectiles (not just mirrors or sunshades). Basically I tell parents that if they are comfortable throwing an item at their child's face with all their strength behind it, then it is okay to have it unrestrained in their car (in reality it would be much more force than that in a crash, but it gets the point across). This goes for ANYTHING in the car, umbrellas, pull down sunshades (the clingy ones are fine), "the club," toys, sippy cups, groceries, diaper bags, etc. If a parent has an SUV or minivan w/ a stroller in the back we have a discussion about using tiedowns to secure the stroller.

Could you explain how to use tiesdowns? I drive a 12 passenger Chevy Express that's on a 15 passenger wheelbase. We have a Graco double stroller that is usually back there along with a fold up crate that has misc car stuff in it. Sometimes it is packed with stuff back there. There is nowhere back there to tie anything down to.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eldadeedlit* 
OK... Yeah I wish I could be carfree. I DESPISE driving but we live in an area that does not have adequate public transportation. I can walk a few places (some restaurants, 7-11, a few boutique type stores, post office, etc.) but for stuff like groceries, I HAVE to drive. And we are quite attached to the area because we live near family, so there you have it.

I really wish there was good public transportation EVERYWHERE though. I hate suburban sprawl.









Well I don't know where you live, but I wouldn't give up. Quite frequently there are more options than people who have used cars from the start know about. It would be worth looking into, and lobbying at city hall for an improvement to public transit.

Also, what transit you do have will die off if it is not used. They keep close count of ridership and scale back and eliminate routes that don't get as much use. This is the real reason why many suburbs have inadequate transport--the residents are used to taking cars and prefer it, so they don't use what the city does provide. Riding as much as you can is a good way to put in a vote for expanding transit options.


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## WNB (Apr 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eldadeedlit* 
out ofcuriosity, how do you not drive? How can you get groceries and stuff? I am honestly curious.

Veronica

*weeps for the Earth*

I *ua violation* the policy makers that decided to elevate cars to demigod status in the U.S.. What was good for GM tutns out to be awful for America and the world.


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## MinnieMouse (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thewaggonerfamily* 
Could you explain how to use tiesdowns? I drive a 12 passenger Chevy Express that's on a 15 passenger wheelbase. We have a Graco double stroller that is usually back there along with a fold up crate that has misc car stuff in it. Sometimes it is packed with stuff back there. There is nowhere back there to tie anything down to.

I'm not familiar w/ the Chevy Express, but check your car's manual to see if there are any cargo hooks available in the back. In my experience vehicles like this generally do. For a while I was recommending bungee cords but found out that they can fail fairly easily in a crash.. tiedowns are more reliable (dh picked up a container of them he keeps in his trunk to tie stuff to the roof of his car).

I know when we get our Sienna in a few years I plan on traveling w/ a few storage containers in the back that I will tie down. Easier to keep all the junk corralled as well!

Not sure that I helped all that much.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

I've been in two crashes with youngsters. Once when I was a nanny, and 21, and once with dd when she was 7 mo and I was 29.

In the 1st, the girls were 4 and 2 and their car-seats had been installed incorrectly by their mom, to whom I was a personal assistant-come-baby-sitter. I was driving her car, and it never occurred to me back then to check the seats, after she put them in. The girls' seats swung out and together, and they bashed heads; one nearly lost an eye via the Happy Meal toy she was clutching.

In the 2nd, in our Suburu Legacy, the seat was center, rf, and the rear of the wagon was chalk-full of recylcing, a stroller, some toys, etc. Dd was fine, nothing touched her, but everything else and I mean _everything_ was launched.

Anything, toys, mirrors, and _people_ become projectiles in a crash; forces involved are something like weight of projectile times 10, plus inertia. Meaning a 1/2 lb mirror becomes a 5 lb flying disc. In the face. Of your baby.


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## MommaCrystal (May 25, 2006)

bluebottle, that sounds wonderful! I wish the entire world were set up that way. Where I live sidewalks are hard to come by and riding the bus will add HOURS to your trip! If I jump in my car I can be to a local shopping center in 10 minutes. If I take the bus it'll probably take me close to an hour.

My husband does take a bus to work on occassion. When he does his 20 minute commute turns into an hour and 10 minutes. So instead of being in his car for a total of 40 minutes it turns out he is on the bus for 2 hours and 20 minutes. He ends up leaving the house an hour and 20 minutes earlier than he would if he drove!

It is hard to stay motivated in circumstances like that.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WNB* 
*weeps for the Earth*

I *ua violation* the policy makers that decided to elevate cars to demigod status in the U.S.. What was good for GM tutns out to be awful for America and the world.

Not everybody lives in a city or suburb, you know.

If you live in the country, how are you supposed to get groceries without a car? Hook up the horse and buggy?


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eldadeedlit* 
out ofcuriosity, how do you not drive? How can you get groceries and stuff? I am honestly curious.

Veronica

My mom never drove. We took public transit, but mostly walked. We would walk home from the g rocery store with small orders or take a cab with larger orders. It is totally do-able.

I am trying to see if we can find a car share program witha mini van because we really don't need a car.

Obviously this depends on where you live.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
Not everybody lives in a city or suburb, you know.

If you live in the country, how are you supposed to get groceries without a car? Hook up the horse and buggy?

Where I went to school, there was a large Mennonite population, and all the major malls, grocery stores, banks, etc had horse hitches.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
Where I went to school, there was a large Mennonite population, and all the major malls, grocery stores, banks, etc had horse hitches.



















that's cool. However, I don't have a place to keep a horse and wouldn't know what to do with one if I had one.

So, everybody is going to just have to _weep for the earth_ every time I run out of milk and TP, because there are no grocery stores in walking distance from my house.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Well I think people have to realize that what is possible for them is not always possible for someone else.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Bluebottle that's great! We live in the burbs and there are NO grocery stores or anything within walking distance with small children. Even the bus stop is over a mile away.







Rarely my dd will want to take the bus home from school (5 miles away-- the school does not have busses of its own). It's a major ordeal. I have to drop her in the morning with her bike. Then in the PM I bike 5 miles to the school with 3yo in the baby seat. I pick 6yo up from school, we bike together to the bus stop one mile from her school, ride the bus for 3 miles, get off and bike the 1 mile home. The bus only comes every 30 minutes so it takes like 2 hours round trip to pick her up. I wish there was a better way.

I was thrilled when I saw that they are going to build a marketplace about 1/2 mile from us! I hope it goes in soon.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MinnieMouse* 

I know when we get our Sienna in a few years I plan on traveling w/ a few storage containers in the back that I will tie down. Easier to keep all the junk corralled as well!

Not sure that I helped all that much.


Great idea! We have a CRV with tiedown straps in the back. I think I will do that.


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## krisw (Jun 8, 2006)

For us, going carless is not really an option. Not if we want to see our families often, go to the stores we prefer going to, have my husband work where he does (or have the flexibility to change jobs) without having to live in areas we feel unsafe living in or can't afford to live in, see our friends, etc.

We do have a mirror. It's a safety glass mirror, which not only attaches around the headrest of the backseat with velcro but tethers to the same spot Bug's carseat will tether to when it is forward-facing (and of course we won't need the mirror anymore then.) So we judge it to be a relatively minor risk, compared with knowing that my husband can look back and see that Bug is ok, not choking, etc. It also makes Bug happier and feel safer knowing he can see his parents like that.

But then, we also use things that wrap around the straps to keep them from rubbing his neck raw, and those are advised against as well.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *krisw* 
But then, we also use things that wrap around the straps to keep them from rubbing his neck raw, and those are advised against as well.


Unless you purchased these things from the company who makes the carseat and they have crash tested them WITH the carseat, they are an aftermarket product that invalidates the warranty of the seat. You are essentially making your child a crash-test dummy. You will also have no legal recourse if your child is injured in an accident.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bluebottle* 
just curious-

are those wraparound thingies considered to make a seat less safe? how?

we don't use them, but i really can't imagine the way in which they make a child a "crash-test dummy".. but maybe i haven't looked closely enough.

i don't live in a country where suing a corporation is considered a reasonable response to losing a child, so the legal issue is moot.

xoa

Ah, but here in the US, suing someone and becoming rich is the American dream









Basically, extensive tests are done with the seat to see how it holds up in a crash and what sort of injuries the child-dummy sustains. Fine tuning is done based on the results of those tests. If an after-market product wasn't included in the testing you have absolutely no way of knowing if that is going to change how the seat works. In the case of shoulder wraps, you don't know if it's going to interfere with the harness holding the child correctly.

In all honesty, is an after-market shoulder comforter LIKELY going to change the effectiveness of the seat? Meh. Probably not. But the fact is, I spent multiple hundreds of dollars to hold my child safely in the car, and I'd just as soon not ruin it with a five dollar product...espeically when I can purchase something that I *know* was crash-tested along with the seat.


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

Went back and read the replies . . . .looks like tie-downs are the answer.


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## trini (Sep 20, 2005)

See, I thought that the danger of mirrors was common knowledge.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrennaMama* 
Anything, toys, mirrors, and _people_ become projectiles in a crash; forces involved are something like weight of projectile times 10, plus inertia. Meaning a 1/2 lb mirror becomes a 5 lb flying disc. In the face. Of your baby.











I understand you have to calculate risk. But to me a mirror is not necessary, so why take that albeit small risk? If it is necessary for you, then okay.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

FTR,

Let's just say I'm in a low-speed impact, and my brand new Britax Boulevard explodes. Pieces of Britax all over the roadway. My fluffy beautiful Shannon cover in shreds







:

And my child suffered a severe injury directly as a result of this incident? You bet your bottom dollar I would sue. But not for money...to make sure that Britax fixed the problem. OTOH, my INSURANCE company would probably sue Britax to recoup the cost of dd's treatment.

Beautiful system, isn't it


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

This thread is pretty OT so I thought I would help......

I am a walker and drive as little as possible. I live in a small rural town with VERY extreme weather. I can walk to 90% of the places I need to go. There is practically no public transit. We do have a "bus system" but it is door to door. So if I use it, I am using far more gas than using my own car as I am usually the only person on the bus, it uses far more gas than my car does, and it drives twice as far to do the same trip since it has to come and pick me up first. So I do not see that as an "environmentally sound" way to get around.

So I walk. I walk to save gas, get exercise, get fresh air, slow down my life, and to be an advocate for pedestrian rights.

However, it is by far more dangerous than driving my dd to the places we walk.

We are walking on streets with no sidewalks. The shopping areas do not have crosswalks. The roads are narrow and often busy. We walk up and down very steep roads. Those roads are covered in ice/snow for 5-6 months of the year. Visibility it often poor due to weather, hills, curves, and vegetation. AND most of the local drivers have zero knowledge on proper pedestrian right-of-ways, do little to accomodate pedestrians, and generally drive like idiots. They might not feel like idiots while in their big "safe" cars, but they sure look like it from my unprotected persepctive. It is almost daily that I have to move to avoid getting run down by someone that does not stop before the crosswalk at a stop sign or who fails to yield when making a turn into a crosswalk. And that is just the meager intersections that actually have crosswalks.

I guarentee that any "accident" we have on foot is going to hurt more than an accident on the same errand while in my car. To go on any of my errands, we never drive faster than 25 mph. Even a head-on collision at 25 mph is going to hurt less than getting mowed down without the metal box around us.

Sad but true.

However, I still walk and will continue to even though I know the risk is higher. I will continue to advocate for pedestrian rights and for more walkability in my town and others. Plus it does pain me to start up my car to drive a sad 2 miles. The fact that we even think that is "normal" indicates a serious problem in this world.


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## Ilovelife (Jun 6, 2004)

I have not read through the 3 pages, but I have to draw the line somewhere, as we all do. There are many unrestrained items in our vehicle, several of which are more dangerous than the mirrors, I'm sure. Is that ideal? No. But it is reality. A car accident is always a bad experience, IMO.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrennaMama* 
forces involved are something like weight of projectile times 10, plus inertia. Meaning a 1/2 lb mirror becomes a 5 lb flying disc. In the face. Of your baby.


It is Newton's Theory of Motion.....basically an object remains in motion at its original speed until stopped by an outside force.

Weight x speed = pounds of restraining force

30 mph x 10 pound child = 300 pounds of restraining force

So the child above would be flung around the vehicle as if they weigh 300 pounds.

Dallaschildren
CPS Instructor


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren* 
It is Newton's Theory of Motion.....basically an object remains in motion at its original speed until stopped by an outside force.

Weight x speed = pounds of restraining force

30 mph x 10 pound child = 300 pounds of restraining force

So the child above would be flung around the vehicle as if they weigh 300 pounds.

Dallaschildren
CPS Instructor

Thanks!! I didn't know the actual formuola (obviously) but hoped someone might chime in with the numbers.

Someone mentioned this me the other day; we'd been talking about how most er's report that some of the most serious injuries they see are the result of a passenger in the car, flying into or onto, or past and kicking or hitting another passenger, in the collision.

Cars are scary. Helpful, but costly, convenient and scary.


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