# Breastfeeding at any cost???



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Dudes. I have seen many posts around here shaming and judging mamas for not breastfeeding, even when they state clearly that they are NOT able to breastfeed. Either there were just too many challenges and barriers at the start and the babes didn't latch, or mama is about to go over the edge emotionally.

Do you really think that breastfeeding is SO important that it is worth enduring weeks and months of pain and frustration, exhaustion, and/or compromising one's mental health?

Coz you know what, I don't. I really, really don't.

Now don't get me wrong, my 2.5 yr old is still nursing on demand, and I really value our breastfeeding relationship. It brings tears to my eyes imagining her weaning, or imagining not having been able to bf her at all.

But we had a super easy start, I didn't get cracked nipples, she latched easily, I had enough milk, she was a singleton, I didn't struggle much with depression. Easy peasy. Not everyone's situation is like that.

I mean, here in MDC-land everything is so straightforward: Breastfeed or die trying.

But IRL, many of my friends have tried hard to bf and been unsuccessful. One friend, they took the baby early due to her high bloodpressure, he wouldn't latch, she was up around the clock, waaaaay less sleep than even most mamas of newborns get, nursing, tube feeding him, pumping, recording. She saw lactation consultants and made an appt with Dr. Jack Newman. Her milk dried up, and that was that.

Another friend, her son was early too, and her nipples became so badly injured that every feed was excruciating. She kept going, and nursed him for six weeks!!! Yay!!! But then that was enough.

Wouldn't it suck for those women to come on this site and be told that they failed their babies?

Everybody behind the keyboard here is a person.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

I just wanted to say thank you for saying this. My dd is 2-months old and we have had a horrific nursing battle (cracked/bleeding nipples, several rounds of thrush...dd has a somewhat problematic palate and I have Raynaud's syndrome). We're still nursing exclusively, but it has been horrible. To make matters worse, I was (am?) suffering from some depression and the nursing pain was making things far worse. I was so emotionally destroyed from the way that nursing was going that it was really preventing me from bonding properly with my dd. I started seeing a therapist, and I *think* (hope) we'll make it through.

But, I felt too embarrassed to post some of this on MDC. I know there are so many mamas here who have worked through worse pain, and I felt like I wasn't as good a mother as they were, that I wasn't trying hard enough, that the failure was all my fault. I spent so much time crying, not only over the way nursing was going, but even more at the thought of giving my dd formula--and wondering if I could ever show my face in AP circles again. I felt that if I gave my dd even one bottle of formula to provide myself with some relief, I would have to spend the rest of my life wondering if every cold or illness she got was my fault. I can't tell you how hard this was--and it made the bonding issues with my dd even worse. As I said, things have seemed a bit better in the past week or so and I'm trying to be optimistic. But I do feel that mothers here are sometimes shamed for their choices and I think that seeing and fearing that shame actually made my post-partum/nursing issues worse.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Wow, NYCVeg, how heartwrenching for you.







I'm sorry. You have really gone the extra mile for your child, I have so much respect for that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg*
I was so emotionally destroyed from the way that nursing was going that it was really preventing me from bonding properly with my dd.

Yes!! My best friend tried hard to nurse her son (the one who was up around the clock), and the struggle definitely was preventing bonding. Of course she loved her son, but she felt like a crappy, inadequate mama, and was really distressed about the bf'ing challenges.

Quote:

But, I felt too embarrassed to post some of this on MDC. I know there are so many mamas here who have worked through worse pain, and I felt like I wasn't as good a mother as they were, that I wasn't trying hard enough, that the failure was all my fault.
My best friend felt this too, and felt like she didn't have a right to stop trying, no matter how much it was destroying her. She stopped coming to MDC after she made the agonizing decision to give up on nursing, and she felt embarrassed at playgroups when she would pull out a bottle.

I feel badly still because I dont' know if I contributed to her feeling badly. My daughter was 9 mos at the time, and bf for us was so easy. And when my friend would talk about wanting to give up, I mostly just encouraged her to keep going, towed the breastfeeding party line, so to speak.

Which at the time I felt was helpful, and I guess it would have been if breastfeeding had worked out for them. But she got to a breaking point, and made the difficult and courageous decision to preserve her mental health, her relationship with her child, and go to formula.

And you know what, her son is beautiful, and well. He is 2 now, and they have a very attached relationship. She always bottle-nursed him, held him close while she fed him, and did AP - babywearing, co-sleeping, responding when he cried.

Yes I know breastmilk is healthier. But apart from that, I don't feel like my daughter got *anything* my friend's son did not.

And although I feed my daughter mainly healthy foods, she has had her fair share of ice cream and french fries. And I have a hard time believing that is not worse for her than formula would have been.


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## treemom2 (Oct 1, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Do you really think that breastfeeding is SO important that it is worth enduring weeks and months of pain and frustration, exhaustion, and/or compromising one's mental health?

Wouldn't it suck for those women to come on this site and be told that they failed their babies?

Those women who have truely tried to bf their children and exhausted all efforts toward establishing a bfing relationship should not feel unwelcome here. However, unfortunately those women are few. Unfortunately, I have heard from many women that they were unable to bf who only tried a few times with half-hearted effort. These women IMO should be told they denied their children their birthright of being BF and, in fact, have failed their babies.


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## crissei (Oct 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Do you really think that breastfeeding is SO important that it is worth enduring weeks and months of pain and frustration, exhaustion, and/or compromising one's mental health?


As someone who has... YES it is totally worth it!

But I try not to judge others when I don't know the full story. I know in my case, luck had a lot to do with my outcome. I mean don't get me wrong, I worked my tail off!









I have to say, I DO judge people (silently) who don't work as hard as hard as they could have, to breastfeed and, then try to use lame excuses.


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## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Do you really think that breastfeeding is SO important that it is worth enduring weeks and months of pain and frustration, exhaustion, and/or compromising one's mental health?

I'm not sure if this is a serious question, or if the question mark is merely rhetorical, but in a word: yes.

First, most people don't have to deal with the extreme difficulty you are describing (and that nycveg is experiencing). Second, many people think they do: bad hospital LC's and doctors have convinced them the barriers are insurmountable in cases where they are easily overcome.

Third, yes, babies need human milk. My moderately compromised mental health is less important than my baby's moderately compromised physical health, especially since I may endure months of emotional difficulty but my baby would have to endure a lifetime of compromised health.

Finally, nursing is important, but human milk is probably the most important part of that. Human milk is increasingly available--to not try to get that if in fact one cannot nurse (in the case of PPP or similar *very extreme* difficulty) is imho very problematic.

FTR, I had mild to moderate difficulty getting nursing started. A lot of frustration and worry and exhaustion, but very little physical pain. I doubt though, that I'd be nursing now if I'd listened to the conventional wisdom dispensed by the medical establishment that perpetuates a model where most women 'try' to nurse for a week or two--unless they think it might be hard.


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## Alienmum (Oct 25, 2005)

I have met a lot of mums who said they couldn't breastfeed because they had no milk. But when I probe deeper, it often turns out that they didn't do their research, didn't try breastfeeding for longer than a few days, couldn't express any milk, and concluded that they couldn't breastfeed. I think those mums could have done better by their babies.

But I know there are plenty of other mums who reach a point where trying to breastfeed causes such physical and emotional stress that it detracts from, rather than adding to, the mother-child bond. In those cases, I think it's certainly better to go with formula -- better for the baby to have formula and a happy, relaxed mum, than breastmilk and a stressed out, tormented mum.

My baby's mouth was on the small side, so we had 6 weeks of sore, bleeding, scabby nipples. Every time she latched on I would be in agony, often screaming and sobbing. I dreaded nursing sessions. The one thing that kept me going was the thought that because our problem was caused by the smallness of her mouth, the pain would go away in time, as she got bigger. Had she passed the magical 4-6 week window without any reduction in the pain, I might well have switched to formula.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tie-dyed*
First, most people don't have to deal with the extreme difficulty you are describing (and that nycveg is experiencing). Second, many people think they do: bad hospital LC's and doctors have convinced them the barriers are insurmountable in cases where they are easily overcome.

I think this is very true. But I think thismama's post didn't necessarily apply to "most people" (which I interpret to mean the many people I know who quit bfing in the first two weeks due to what I personally think of as "normal" difficulties--having a c/s, a bad but easily correctible latch, bad advice from a doctor or LC, etc.). I think the average MDC mama is very different from "most people"--does her research, doesn't trust everything a doctor says, is willing to go through a lot more than the average mom to establish bfing.

To me, thismama's post refers more to the people for whom weaning is truly heart-breaking but for whom the costs of bfing seem to outweigh the benefits. When I was so depressed and frustrated and sick of pain that I told my dd that I hated her (yes, I actually did this







), I knew that I had to get some counseling--but if my feelings of resentment toward her had continued (and I'm very vigilant about this--we've had five days straight of "good days", but I'm not sure we're out of the water yet), switching to formula might have been a better solution for me. I don't know that a bf baby whose mom is numb, frustrated, depressed and angry is truly better off than a ff baby whose mom can attach to her.


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## bright (Mar 10, 2005)

Subscribing.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*

Do you really think that breastfeeding is SO important that it is worth enduring weeks and months of pain and frustration, exhaustion, and/or compromising one's mental health?



For me, it definitely was and still is. We went through so much, and I am so proud of myself for working through everything and then nursing through pregnancy, and hopefully tandem nursing soon.

But I would never judge another woman.

I was a bf peer support volunteer, and it was so great helping women, especially from the misinformation given by health care providers. That experience, more than anything else, has helped me be not judgmental.


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## melbb (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Do you really think that breastfeeding is SO important that it is worth enduring weeks and months of pain and frustration, exhaustion, and/or compromising one's mental health?

I can't answer since it didn't work out for me and DD. BUt I do think a great amount of effort is worth it. But I also think balance is in order. My DD had jaundice for 2 weeks and wouldn't latch on at birth. So I pumped and finger fed. She started BFig with a nipple shield at 3.5 weeks old. When she was 1.5 months old, we were diagnosed with thrush, which we battled for months. She went through multiple breast refusals for no obvious reasons. I cried all the time and was very depressed. By 4 months, she started feeding less and less at the breast and my milk supply dropped. She was always an impatient feeder, so this was unacceptable to her and she gradually stopped all BFing. I pumped to get my supply back up, but she never would go back to the breast, just screamed at me. She is not a cuddly type of baby and hated co-sleeping/skin to skin. SO I had limited options for trying to woo her back to the breast. I took a break from trying, then tried again and she would still just scream at the sight of my breast. She is now 8 months old and I am still EPing for her. I am sad about the loss of a BFing relationship, but we are both happier this way. I missed out on a lot of bonding time with DD because of our struggles. It is a lot of work to EP, finger-feed, etc. I am sad about missing out on some of that time that I can never get back. I think women need to find a balance. There is more to happiness and being a good mother and bonding with your child than BFing. In fact, being so obsessed with BFing delayed the formation of a bond because I was depressed and resented her/was angry with her because I knew she was capable of BFing but was choosing not to. In the end, DD is still getting mostly breastmilk (my supply isn't great and she is a chow hound). But it seems that some women even look down on EPing, which I don't understand. Don't they think I would rather be BFing? Instead I have to be tied to the pump, washing pump parts all the time, etc. And add to that constant plugged ducts, 3 cases of mastitis and several issues with plugged nipple pores.


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

Personally, I don't think I would have been willing to work that hard at breastfeeding. Pain and latch problems early on, sure, I would have worked through that. Issues like overactive letdown and oversupply, yes, I could have dealt with that. Basically, anything that one could improve with different breastfeeding management techniques, I would have done that.

But if I'd had low supply, I don't think I would have been willing to do things like pump after/between feedings, take herbs or drugs, etc. Yes, I would have continued to breastfeed, but I would also have supplemented.

Or if I'd been unable to get my daughter to latch on at all, I don't know how long I would have been willing to exclusively pump. I probably would have made it 3 months, I don't know if I'd have made it 6 if she still wouldn't latch on.

Things I value about breastfeeding include the lack of need for preparation/cleaning, the ease of travel, cost savings, etc. Sure, I think breastmilk is better for babies than formula. But many of those benefits are still there if you're a combination feeder, and any amount of breastmilk a child receives is better than none.

As mothers, I think we do need to take our emotional health into consideration. Yes, we need to challenge our limits. But when we find that the disadvantages of doing something outweigh the benefits, we also need to know when to cut ourselves some slack.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

And you know what else? Don't advise people that they need to get to a milk bank, unless you know exactly what that entails, if it is even possible in their area, and are willing to help with the cost.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*

Do you really think that breastfeeding is SO important that it is worth enduring weeks and months of pain and frustration, exhaustion, and/or compromising one's mental health?

Yes. I think that all humans deserve standard infant nutrition. That said, if a mom has really tried and it's not working, then they need to make their own decision.

-Angela


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*







And you know what else? Don't advise people that they need to get to a milk bank, unless you know exactly what that entails, if it is even possible in their area, and are willing to help with the cost.

I disagree. Milk banks are a great resource that more moms should at least look into. If it's not feasible due to cost, then it's not feasible. But it costs nothing to ask.

-Angela


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Do you really think that breastfeeding is SO important that it is worth enduring weeks and months of pain and frustration, exhaustion, and/or compromising one's mental health?

I think it's even more important.

You asked.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

uh, considering I'm sitting here pumping for my 12 month old, and that I've had to pump pretty much every drop she's ever drank, except for what I've hand expressed, I guess I'd have to say, HELL YES, I think it's worth it.

anything that has the potential to dramatically affect my child's health positively is very worth it.

I've pumped more than a half ounce of blood, straight blood, out of my left breast on several occasions, had five bouts of mastitis, open sores on the areola, plugged ducts, blisters. I've sat hunched over a pump in hospitals, cars, at 3 am in my living room crying my eyes out from exhaustion and self pity and frustration wanting to quit more than I ever wanted to quit anything, ever.

But for the record? I don't judge mothers who have quit in the face of less daunting breastfeeding challenges- I judge a society that makes it so freaking hard to get the right info and the right support to keep going, I'm mad at people who call themselves medical professionals who fail at giving correct advice in the most basic situations.

I judge mothers who have all the info on bf'ing and still don't even TRY to nurse their child. Anyone else, I feel mad that they were misinformed, that they didn't have adequate support, that they got bad advice. That's what a lot of people in Lactivism are trying to do- counter the bad advice with good advice, make a bad or nonexistent nursing relationship into a successful one, because it's best for the health of the baby AND mother.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bri276*
uh, considering I'm sitting here pumping for my 12 month old, and that I've had to pump pretty much every drop she's ever drank, except for what I've hand expressed, I guess I'd have to say, HELL YES, I think it's worth it.

anything that has the potential to dramatically affect my child's health positively is very worth it.

I've pumped more than a half ounce of blood, straight blood, out of my left breast on several occasions, had five bouts of mastitis, open sores on the areola, plugged ducts, blisters. I've sat hunched over a pump in hospitals, cars, at 3 am in my living room crying my eyes out from exhaustion and self pity and frustration wanting to quit more than I ever wanted to quit anything, ever.


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## luv2eatamango (May 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bri276*
But for the record? I don't judge mothers who have quit in the face of less daunting breastfeeding challenges- I judge a society that makes it so freaking hard to get the right info and the right support to keep going, I'm mad at people who call themselves medical professionals who fail at giving correct advice in the most basic situations.

I judge mothers who have all the info on bf'ing and still don't even TRY to nurse their child. Anyone else, I feel mad that they were misinformed, that they didn't have adequate support, that they got bad advice. That's what a lot of people in Lactivism are trying to do- counter the bad advice with good advice, make a bad or nonexistent nursing relationship into a successful one, because it's best for the health of the baby AND mother.

Thank you for spelling this out - this is just how I feel.









I was committed from my 2nd trimester of pregnancy (first-timer) to breastfeed, went to LLL meetings to meet other nursing mamas, made it a point to have my mom stay with us for the first two weeks, made sure my husband was on the same page, and then went through four long weeks of cracked, bleeding and really sore nipples just because I BELIEVED that it would get better (and be worth it).

And it DID get better, and it was worth every single minute.


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## Nisupulla (Jun 16, 2006)

In Sweden more than 50% of the infants are still breastfeeding at 6 months. In the U.S., only about 20% are still breastfeeding at 6 months. Clearly, the reasons for the difference is not that women are unable to breastfeed.

I haven't seen a lot of shaming and judging. I've seen a lot of frustration that what women are calling an inability to breastfeed is really a lack of support and good information.

Certainly, there are many challenges and barriers, we live in a bottle feeding culture that is slow to adopt change.

I don't believe that there are many people here are willing to decide for someone else how much exhaustion, pain and frustration is reasonable.

There are a lot of myths out there such as breastfeeding increasing the risk of depression.

I haven't witnessed the "breastfeed or die trying" mentality here on MDC. Can't say it doesn't exist, either.

Perfect example, if Jack Newman wasn't able to help, this is probably a case where the mom was unable to BF.

Many women, like your friend, jump through more hurdles than I would be willing to in order to breastfeed.

I just don't see what you see, that people who don't BF are not treated as people, that people generally accuse others of "failing their babies."

The bottom line is people need support and good info in order to breastfeed. And yes breastfeeding is worth a considerable effort. But each mom needs to decide for herself what she is willing or capable of.

I don't think many people here would question a mom who said, "I know there are risks if I don't BF, but given my current circumstances/knowledge/support I'm not going to do it."

Maybe I'm wrong.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nisupulla*
I don't believe that there are many people here are willing to decide for someone else how much exhaustion, pain and frustration is reasonable.

But there are some.

I wonder what would have happened if my situation hadn't improved (or if it regresses). What if I was so physically compromised, exhausted, frustrated, and depressed that I was neglecting my baby...leaving her to cry alone in a room for hours b/c I literally couldn't cope with taking care of her? (This is not so far-fetched--there actually were times where I had to set down a crying baby and walk away for a minute, b/c I was too wracked with sobs to even hold her; there were also some times when I felt "numb" to her and didn't respond as soon as I should have.). I don't think that nursing in and of itself causes depression, but in my case the two were very closely linked--because extreme physical pain DOES contribute to depression, as do extreme frustration, isolation, and feelings of inadequacy, all of which, in my case, were related to nursing. Should we risk compromising a baby's health--mental and/or physical--in other ways, just so long as he has breastmilk?

I feel deeply and passionately about bfing. That's why I'm sticking it out through so much difficulty and pain. But it's frankly shocking to me that we at MDC can't admit that there are SOME limits to what a person can endure, and that those limits vary from person to person.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg*

I feel deeply and passionately about bfing. That's why I'm sticking it out through so much difficulty and pain. But it's frankly shocking to me that we at MDC can't admit that there are SOME limits to what a person can endure, and that those limits vary from person to person.

Very well said.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg*
But it's frankly shocking to me that we at MDC can't admit that there are SOME limits to what a person can endure, and that those limits vary from person to person.

I agree. There are limits to what a person can endure and those limits vary from person to person. No argument here. AND I think it is a slap in the face to women who DO stick it out through problems for women to not try and then claim that it was just "too much" or my favorite- "we're doing what's right for our family...."

-Angela


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## TurboClaudia (Nov 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna*
I agree. There are limits to what a person can endure and those limits vary from person to person. No argument here. AND I think it is a slap in the face to women who DO stick it out through problems for women to not try and then claim that it was just "too much" or my favorite- "we're doing what's right for our family...."

-Angela

saying "it was just too much" or "we're doing what's right for our family" is very often what is truly the case and it is certainly much easier and much quicker to say either of those statements than to elaborately explain every single thing that i personally tried to improve and increase my milk supply and finally explain what actually worked for us.

this is a very interesting thread...







:
~claudia


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## turtlewomyn (Jun 5, 2005)

My first eight weeks of breastfeeding were hell, (dd was tongue tied, I was recovering from a c-section, my nipples hurt more than my incision, my husband was having to leave the room when I nursed because he couldn't stand to see me scream at latch on). I received horrible advice from my OB, and three pediatricians. I finally had to search around for a doctor who could help and fix the tongue tie without putting my daughter under GA and who actually did tell me "Yes, tongue tie affects breastfeeding." Now, DD is 9.5 months and I feel that the time was so worth it, I love our breastfeeding relationship, I feel proud that I made it this far, and I am really grateful anytime I walk down the formula isle and think about the money we are saving!
I have a friend whose son was born two days before my DD, she tried bfing for seven weeks, had lots of problems, her son was at his birthweight at seven weeks, they ended up in emergency room because the doctor thought there was something wrong with him, she fed with SNS for several weeks or months, and pumped in between feedings, but never got her supply up. She decided to bottlefeed, and I can totally understand that. I wish that she had gotten help sooner, maybe it would have made a difference.

I do however, become frustrated when I hear that a mom had "tried" breastfeeding but it didn't work, and the baby is only a few days old (happened recently with a coworker, although babe was a preemie so I know they are more difficult, but my SIL just got my four month old niece who was a preemie back on the breast after months of pumping, so it is possible!). I don't think you are really trying unless you give it at least two weeks.

However, ultimately I blame our social system because it certainly doesn't support breastfeeding women.


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## GalateaDunkel (Jul 22, 2005)

I see two issues:

whether a woman is *objectively justified* in her decision to throw in the towel (ultimately this is something you can only ever know for yourself)

vs.

whether a woman is willing or able to *justify* her choice/situation *to other people*

Unfortunately I think that the women who have the most reasons are often the ones who feel most put on the spot by the culture of judgment (and yes, there is a culture of judgment), because they are conscientious. They hear endless bitching about "women who make up excuses and give up at the least little obstacle" and since they rarely have anything to compare their own experience to first hand, they start wondering "oh no, does that mean me?" even as their breasts are dripping blood.

People who least deserve judgment end up taking the most of it on themselves. There is a similar situation with c-sections.

And then, too, if you don't "give up" or "fail" people use you as an example of what good girls do, and that feels very condescending and patronizing. HELLO, my experience does not exist to justify your moral paradigm! Excuse me for not being grateful for your approval!

It is unfortunate. I'm not sure what can be done to change it. Given the atmosphere, I think for women who are struggling to hold up their experiences and choices for public scrutiny is often unwise, because you will end up getting hurt.


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## miziki (Mar 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *melbb*
But it seems that some women even look down on EPing, which I don't understand. Don't they think I would rather be BFing? Instead I have to be tied to the pump, washing pump parts all the time, etc.

First,







because it sounds like you've been through A LOT to try and breastfeed and because you're doing, IMO, the next best thing (bottlenursing and EPing) which is no small commitment!

Second, I'm blown away by _even the idea of_ someone looking down on EPing - it's such a gigantic labor of love, by far the most exhausting, difficult, time-consuming way for a mom to feed her baby. It requires true dedication and, if anything, is a testament to just how much an EPing mom values giving her child breastmilk. Sheesh, look down on it?!? Unreal!


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## miziki (Mar 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*







And you know what else? Don't advise people that they need to get to a milk bank, unless you know exactly what that entails, if it is even possible in their area, and are willing to help with the cost.

Very true.

But doesn't this speak to an even *bigger* issue? That milk banks should not be so a) scarce, b) exorbitantly expensive!


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## miziki (Mar 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bri276*
uh, considering I'm sitting here pumping for my 12 month old, and that I've had to pump pretty much every drop she's ever drank, except for what I've hand expressed, I guess I'd have to say, HELL YES, I think it's worth it.
































Quote:


Originally Posted by *bri276*
I don't judge mothers who have quit in the face of less daunting breastfeeding challenges- I judge a society that makes it so freaking hard to get the right info and the right support to keep going, I'm mad at people who call themselves medical professionals who fail at giving correct advice in the most basic situations...

Bri, this is SPOT ON. Couldn't agree with you more. The *true* problem lies in our current culture, not with the vast majority of mothers who have been provided with misinformation and lack-of-support and bottlefeeding-formula images (instead of breastfeeding or pumping-bottlefeeding images).

And by the way, uh 12 months of EPing? You're my HERO. I have another friend who did that for her daughter, 6 cases of mastitis, crazy amounts of food allergies in her DD (so she, the mama, was on a pretty severe elimination diet), and working full time in corporate America... I told her all the time (and still do) how much I admire and respect her for making such a phenomenal effort for her DD (and that I would have supported her no matter her decision on how to feed her daughter). Anyway, you rock, Bri!


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

Thanks for starting this thread! My dd was unable to nurse at birth. To make a long story short, I am still pumping 9 months later. Thankfully I do not have to give her formula. I still periodically try to have her BF from the tap, but it does not go well for either of us. But I don't let it get to me now, since I know I am doing the best I can by providing her with breastmilk.

I pretty much gave up most hope around the 4-5 month mark for her to BF from the tap. I was crying constantly, so was dd, it was not fair to put her through the misery. I can tell my misery was getting to my dh and it was starting to effect our marriage. (b/c of me, not him. I had it in my head he didn't love me b/c I was consumed by the dream to bf, but he did love me. Gotta love PPD!







) I was unable to bond with my daughter do to our constant frustrations. When I gave up hope and continued pumping without the pressure of trying to nurse, we are able to bond. I am so much happier now, and so is she. My dh is happier b/c I am happier.

Pumping around the clock is exhausting. I have no free time. When dd naps, I pump. No napping for me! Eping is not for everyone. I don't think I would be able to do it if I had other children to care for. I would not neglect them to pump. Its so hard being sick with mastitis, getting thrush, and plugged ducts. Its no fun!!! We have no milk banks in this state. So if I had other kids and the story was the same, I would be FF now. I gave it a good shot for 4-5 months before I gave up hope. Giving up hope was the best thing I did. Atleast she is getting my milk. I know I am doing the best I can for my daughter, myself, and my husband. I will not wind up divorced over a dream to BF from the tap. My dd needs her daddy more than the milk from the tap. She likes her bottles anyway. Its me that wanted her to take it from the tap.


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## miziki (Mar 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *turtlewomyn*
I don't think you are really trying unless you give it at least two weeks. However, ultimately I blame our social system because it certainly doesn't support breastfeeding women.

Funny you mention the "two weeks" thing. Any friends of mine who are expecting AND who actually ask about how breastfeeding went/is going for me (DD nursed until 2+ yrs old and weaned while I was pregnant w/ DS who is now 5 months old and at the breast, thankfully, after EPing for 5 weeks)... I tell them, due to the struggles I had w/ initiating BF w/ both my babies, if they're going to "try to breastfeed": _*Consider giving it at least 8 weeks before you decide if you want to breastfeed.

*_Which brings us back to *alegna*'s _"There are limits to what a person can endure and those limits vary from person to person."

_And then I also was really







when reading this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GalateaDunkel*
Unfortunately I think that the women who have the most reasons are often the ones who feel most put on the spot by the culture of judgment (and yes, there is a culture of judgment), because they are conscientious... People who least deserve judgment end up taking the most of it on themselves. There is a similar situation with c-sections.









:


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

I would have to say that if you truly are committed to breastfeeding, you will persevere through anything. Some of the PP's can really attest to that. I certainly had my share of troubles - postpartum anemia that caused supply problems, having to supplement, PPD, mastitis, etc. - and an initially difficult bf'ing relationship. At 4 months it all straightened out and I was able to bf exclusively and we have a wonderful nursing relationship now. Was all the pain and suffering and mental anguish worth it? Hell yes. Because it is NOTHING compared to the lifelong guilt and shame and disappointment I would have felt if I'd bailed and gone onto formula.

And I think that is the key differentiator right there: a woman WILL give up on bf'ing if the pain and anguish she is experiencing are worse than how she will feel for the rest of her life if she uses formula. If she can't face herself after she feeds her baby formula (exclusively, I mean - any bm is better than none at all) then she will keep breastfeeding no matter what. This is why I think society needs to demonize formula a LOT more and make using it a shameful thing. (Within reason - it has medical applications that should not be ignored. But it should be treated as a drug, not a food.)


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spughy*
This is why I think society needs to demonize formula a LOT more and make using it a shameful thing. (Within reason - it has medical applications that should not be ignored. But it should be treated as a drug, not a food.)









:


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spughy*
I would have to say that if you truly are committed to breastfeeding, you will persevere through anything. Some of the PP's can really attest to that. I certainly had my share of troubles - postpartum anemia that caused supply problems, having to supplement, PPD, mastitis, etc. - and an initially difficult bf'ing relationship. At 4 months it all straightened out and I was able to bf exclusively and we have a wonderful nursing relationship now. Was all the pain and suffering and mental anguish worth it? Hell yes. Because it is NOTHING compared to the lifelong guilt and shame and disappointment I would have felt if I'd bailed and gone onto formula.

And I think that is the key differentiator right there: a woman WILL give up on bf'ing if the pain and anguish she is experiencing are worse than how she will feel for the rest of her life if she uses formula. If she can't face herself after she feeds her baby formula (exclusively, I mean - any bm is better than none at all) then she will keep breastfeeding no matter what. This is why I think society needs to demonize formula a LOT more and make using it a shameful thing. (Within reason - it has medical applications that should not be ignored. But it should be treated as a drug, not a food.)

Great post - ITA! For me it WAS more a "I WILL NOT FF!" than a "I will BF" thing. I kept telling myself that formula was a nasty evil thing & I was NOT using it. That helped more. I actually was in the store recently & wanted to see the ingrediants on formula & couldn't cuz I was too embarassed to take it off the shelf.


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## MelKnee (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Do you really think that breastfeeding is SO important that it is worth enduring weeks and months of pain and frustration, exhaustion, and/or compromising one's mental health?

Quite simply, yes.

With my 1st ds, I pumped the whole time he was alive. If he had lived and never learned to latch, I would have pumped for 2 yrs.
With 2nd ds, I had chronic plugged ducts, multiple bouts of thrush, mastitis, PPD (caused, I think, by having him latched on 20 hrs a day for his first year).
DD had a horrible latch-on her first 3 wks. I had to breath thru it like a contraction. Then, we had thrush for 3 mos. It is just now becoming "easy".

It's worth it because they are worth it. Human milk is biologically what they expect. It is what their bodies and brains need. I can give them no less.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MelKnee*
It's worth it because they are worth it. Human milk is biologically what they expect. It is what their bodies and brains need. I can give them no less.

This is a great quote. I might have to borrow it









-Angela


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## may05mommy (Jul 20, 2006)

Yes, I think it's worth it. I had a C-section due to a placental abruption, and the ped who saw DS in the hospital said, "Your milk might not come in and you might have to supplement." I said that there was no way in h*ll that my child was getting formula--so I fed him every 1-2 hours, round the clock, whether he was hungry or not. My milk came in, and in abundance, and DS only lost 5 oz of his birthweight. However, because of my oversupply, he was not getting any hindmilk, therefore he was not getting full and was wanting to eat every 45 minutes to an hour, 24/7. He was also very gassy and had GERD. The lactation consultant told me to feed him off one side at a time, and he stayed full longer. I also had cracked and bleeding nipples, and had thrush issues off and on for his entire first year.

I don't judge formula-feeding mothers, not most of them anyway. I judge the formula companies for throwing samples at pregnant women and new mothers "just in case"







. I judge doctors who are quick to push formula, and a society that tries to relegate nursing mothers to dirty restrooms while allowing formula-feeding mothers to feed their children out in the open. I judge the so-called parenting "experts" in the mainstream who push babies to sleep through the night years before they're ready, acting as if a baby sleeping through the night at age, oh, three weeks is a sign of good parenting.









Most of the women I know who formula-feed, do so because they got a bad start or didn't know that the first six weeks is _not_ the sum total of the breastfeeding relationship. They didn't know to feed the baby as soon as possible after birth, didn't know to avoid pacifiers, didn't know that, yes, the baby will need to eat every 1-2 hours from beginning of one feeding to the beginning of the next feeding, didn't know not to schedule feedings--and most importantly, didn't know that the soreness and engorgement usually clears itself up in six weeks or so (mine took eight weeks). That's not the fault of these mothers, that's the fault of society.

There are some who just say "I want to feed on a schedule, I want my baby to sleep through the night, I want someone else to feed him/her, it's too confining, I want to be able to drink/smoke/whatever." To which I just say





















. But for most mothers, I think it's a case of not knowing or not having support.


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## Mohawk River (Jul 22, 2006)

I find the topic very confusing myself.
On the one hand I'm disturbed that pumping oz. of blood, having badly scabbed nipples, and consistent thrush for six moths, is consdered a badge of "good Motherhood". Now, do not read too much into that, because of course, any woman, who goes through any of that is incrediable and deserves several badges. What I mean is difficult to voice, but perhaps others understand? I am of the mind that human milk is best for human babies, and in the case of a vegan family (we are except honey and wool), it is the only option. But motherhood is so, SO much more than boobies. (I know my dd doesn't agree, but oh well...







) Anyway, I know I'm sounding kind of fuddled, but it just seems sad to me that the ante keeps getting raised, in this department. "My nipples are SO scabbed and raw, I just can't do it anymore







, please tell me I'm not a bad mother!" "Have you tried some lanolin? I know, BTDT, I've pumped pure blood before. Hang in there."
KWIM? Or am I still not making sense? *sigh*
And the whole "birthright" thing. a child has the birthright to a mother that loves it uncoditionally, and doesn't cry when it needs to eat, tells it that she hates it, and is distant and removed, and potentionally resentful. Ah birthrights. Should we even go there??? Here are mine, which many MDC'ers will agree with: to be breastfed, to be intact, to be slept with... here are some more slightly controversial ones, (even here): to be vaccination-free, to never step foot in day-care... and even more strange: to be taught by their parents, to not be left with baby-sitters of any kind, to be raised vegan, etc, etc... Oh I could go on. My veiws of my children's "birthrights" are strong, and yet undoubtably differ from others veiws of "birthright". For the many Jewish families who are not part of the new intact movement, to them circumcision is indeed a "birthright" of their sons.
Anyway, I've probably lost you.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

I agree all those things are birthrights too.
And I still say - to the mom who was pumping 8 oz. of blood to BF her DC...







Someone *should* make her a badge. Is what she did a symbol of good motherhood?! Damn right!


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:

Do you really think that breastfeeding is SO important that it is worth enduring weeks and months of pain and frustration, exhaustion, and/or compromising one's mental health?
Yes I totally do. IMHO when you have kids you must learn to sacrifice, that is all part of being a parent.


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## Mohawk River (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm*
"Children will do to the world what is done to them."

That is an excellent quote! I love it!


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm*
I agree all those things are birthrights too.
And I still say - to the mom who was pumping 8 oz. of blood to BF her DC...







Someone *should* make her a badge. Is what she did a symbol of good motherhood?! Damn right!

8 oz of pure blood? no milk mixed with that? I sure hope she didn't become anemic from that much blood loss. I never pumped that much blood, thankfully. Never more than about an ounce. I sure hope things went better for her after that!!!


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mohawk River*
That is an excellent quote! I love it!

















I stole it from PeaceLovingMama!


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## EastonsMom (Oct 24, 2005)

We had a NIGHTMARE for the first five monthes, Crakced and bleeding SEVERE thrush up in my ducts and all, a hole the size of a eraser in my one nipple. I will never forget when he spit up ALOT of blood and I relized it was from my nipples! Iif you can name it, I endured it and I am beyond proud to be still nursing that Big Boy, 15 monthes later! Now that being sayed...

I can see why people throw in the towel and I have no problem with that, as long as they gave it there ALL and I mean all they could to make it work. What makes me so

















































:







:














are the people that I know ( not friends with) or people I saw today. When a soon to be grandma asked her pregno daughter ( or DIL) if she was going to breastfeed the hurried and IGNORANT response of " uh, NO of coarse not! We will be using bottles!! Like was it even a question! Repeat

















































:







:















That is the shit that makes me furious!! She probably went outside to smoke a cigerette after the question to calm her nerves from a well intendted Grandma. (You see alot of that around here) Here mom or mil was looking at those ugly Winnie the Pooh baby holders so I looked over at them and told them that I sold slings ( Big E was chillin in ours) and was explaining to here how much better they are because of the differant postions and other health benifits and how I still nurse him in it ( he is 15 monthes) ( that is what stared the whole BF thing) and the pregno was like, why would I take him out of the carseat and put him in something like that when he is fine where he is. I just turned on while heel and walked away. Better than throwing up on her feet or just flat out going off on here ignorant ass.

That is the shit that gets me going. I really am a nice person! Thanks for reading and have a great day














:


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mohawk River*
I find the topic very confusing myself.
On the one hand I'm disturbed that pumping oz. of blood, having badly scabbed nipples, and consistent thrush for six moths, is consdered a badge of "good Motherhood". Now, do not read too much into that, because of course, any woman, who goes through any of that is incrediable and deserves several badges. What I mean is difficult to voice, but perhaps others understand? I am of the mind that human milk is best for human babies, and in the case of a vegan family (we are except honey and wool), it is the only option. But motherhood is so, SO much more than boobies. (I know my dd doesn't agree, but oh well...







) Anyway, I know I'm sounding kind of fuddled, but it just seems sad to me that the ante keeps getting raised, in this department. "My nipples are SO scabbed and raw, I just can't do it anymore







, please tell me I'm not a bad mother!" "Have you tried some lanolin? I know, BTDT, I've pumped pure blood before. Hang in there."
KWIM? Or am I still not making sense? *sigh*
And the whole "birthright" thing. a child has the birthright to a mother that loves it uncoditionally, and doesn't cry when it needs to eat, tells it that she hates it, and is distant and removed, and potentionally resentful. Ah birthrights. Should we even go there??? Here are mine, which many MDC'ers will agree with: to be breastfed, to be intact, to be slept with... here are some more slightly controversial ones, (even here): to be vaccination-free, to never step foot in day-care... and even more strange: to be taught by their parents, to not be left with baby-sitters of any kind, to be raised vegan, etc, etc... Oh I could go on. My veiws of my children's "birthrights" are strong, and yet undoubtably differ from others veiws of "birthright". For the many Jewish families who are not part of the new intact movement, to them circumcision is indeed a "birthright" of their sons.
Anyway, I've probably lost you.









You've articulated it better than I, but I agree.
I am bothered by the need to be a martyr for breastfeeding.
I am also bothered by people who don't even try.

And then there is the "IMO, if you're REALLY devoted you'll make it work," which is just one more way of making mothers who couldn't breastfeed (and there are PLENTY here at MDC) out to be lazy, not trying hard enough, etc.

Oh and NYCveg - while we have not had the same nursing struggles as you (different ones), you are NOT a bad mother for being upset, stressed, sleep-deprived, and resentful of your daughter. I won't say "all", but I think that many mothers go through the same thing. You say it, then you look at your little baby and hate yourself for not appreciating this little creature like you should. And that means even more stress and anguish. I have been there. You are doing a great job. For what it's worth, the first 8 weeks were the hardest. Any day now your daughter will start rewarding you with smiles - and at this age, it's not just the face, but a full-body smile - and coos, and that makes it all soooo much easier.


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

We need to find a balance between:

Keep at it, it will get better, do not give up!

and

I don't care if your nipples are FALLING OFF. You WILL breastfeed or you are a BAD MOTHER who is denying your child their BIRTHRIGHT because you're SELFISH.


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## kalirush (Jun 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82*
We need to find a balance between:

Keep at it, it will get better, do not give up!

and

I don't care if your nipples are FALLING OFF. You WILL breastfeed or you are a BAD MOTHER who is denying your child their BIRTHRIGHT because you're SELFISH.

Oh, yeah that. That pretty much exactly articulates my entire issue with this thread.

I think I'd also like to add that I think this is far too emotional an issue to be resolved in any way. The women on the board here who persevered through incredible trouble to maintain a bfing relationship (and I include you EP'ers in that number- I'm utterly in awe of you ladies) have so much invested in their bfing relationships that there's no question to them that it was worth it (and I would never say it wasn't).

The women who gave up want to feel justified in having done so. And that's reasonable, too. No one wants to feel like a bad mother. And it's absolutely true that none of us knows any individual poster's limits.

I do have to say that it bothers me sometimes the "helpful" advice given in these boards- you ff your baby because of iatrogenic sabotage, tried to relactate and failed, but STILL advocate for breastfeeding? The answer is not "Wow- way to turn your pain into something positive! You rock!", the answer is "Have you tried fenugreek? You could try again to relactate!".

At some point, it just needs to be let go, and that mama's experiences and choices respected.

Julia


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## nausicaamom (Feb 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalirush*
I do have to say that it bothers me sometimes the "helpful" advice given in these boards- you ff your baby because of iatrogenic sabotage, tried to relactate and failed, but STILL advocate for breastfeeding? The answer is not "Wow- way to turn your pain into something positive! You rock!", the answer is "Have you tried fenugreek? You could try again to relactate!".

At some point, it just needs to be let go, and that mama's experiences and choices respected.

Very well said!


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

My dd is 2-months old and we have had a horrific nursing battle (cracked/bleeding nipples, several rounds of thrush...dd has a somewhat problematic palate and I have Raynaud's syndrome). We're still nursing exclusively, but it has been horrible. To make matters worse, I was (am?) suffering from some depression and the nursing pain was making things far worse. I was so emotionally destroyed from the way that nursing was going that it was really preventing me from bonding properly with my dd.
Hugs to you. This sounds like my story.

My DD has a "bubble" palate. It took till she was 4 months old for anyone to figure this out--and yes, I went to LLL and saw two LCs. I can remember two or three times in her whole nursing life when nursing was not painful--and I do mean excruciatingly painful. The LC told me that I could not experience the correct feel of nursing because DD could not draw the nipple back to her soft palate. I developed Raynaud's, bled into the pump, had multiple open sores, and got thrush, too.

Yet I kept at it. I nursed her exclusively at the breast till she was 6 months, and then I went to mostly EPing and kept that up till she was 15 months, pumping 5-6 times a day for at least 20 minutes every time. That is countless hours of my life--note, too, countless hours attached to my pump, sometimes while my baby cried. (As a side note, a pet peeve: BFers who blithely say that they would have pumped for 2 years had they had any issues. Well, TRY pumping FT, many times a day, with an active baby and see how hard it is. Try figuring out how to chase a newly-crawling baby bent on destruction while your nipples are tethered to a machine; try soothing a screaming teether while you do it. I can't even imagine pumping FT with more than one child. Doable, but my god, nothing to just assume you'd do, la ti da, easy-peasy. I joked about burning my pump when I was done with it. It was only half a joke.)

Anyway. All this was THE HARDEST THING I HAVE EVER DONE IN MY LIFE, bar none.

Was it worth it? Was it really worth it? I am not sure. Flame away, but I am not sure. I am so incredibly glad that she got all that breastmilk. She is and was a gloriously healthy child. But.

I was so fricking miserable. I sobbed through so many feedings. I'm not talking about a few toe-curling feedings at 2 weeks--I'm talking about nursing a 5-month-old and sobbing, because it still hurt that much. I was so.burned.out. I would hear her cry and my skin would crawl, because I knew it was time to nurse. There were many days when I dreaded picking her up because it hurt to have her move and kick against my nipples. There were days when all I felt as I nursed was rage and horror. We could barely leave the house, because I could not NIP--I needed 80 billion pillows and the right chair and so on to get the angle even remotely right so that it would hurt a little less. I had pretty bad PPD, and I'm very sure that my breastfeeding issues had everything to do with it. Later, I felt so terribly ashamed of the bottles I used. I beat myself up over the bit of formula I had to supplement with. I cringed every time I had to talk about how my baby was fed.

After I weaned, all the skin peeled off my nipples. They are permanently scarred. I think I may have done nerve damage. It took several months post-wean before I was finally able, for the first time in 15 months, to sleep without a bra at night. (Anything rubbing against my nipples was torture).

An acquaintance of mine had a baby with palate problems a while ago; she had persistent nursing pain and issues. She'd heard about my struggles through the new-mom grapevine. She asked me for my advice. It cost and cost me, but I told her the truth: I'm not sure it was worth it. If I had it to do over again: no. I would not take it that far. I was wrecked by it, and I "missed" a lot of my baby's first year.

I'm as annoyed as anyone by moms who give up too easily or because they get bad support. It's much more common that situations like mine. But situations like mine DO exist. And I am here to say: martyring yourself into a pure ball of misery for the sake of 100% breastmilk? For months, for more than a year? I don't really think it was the right choice for me. I think it impeded bonding and drove a sharp, invisible, yet painful wedge between me and my DD. I wish I could remember her first 6 months without mostly just remembering that pain. I will never get that time back.

And now I'm crying just thinking about it. I hope my story reaches someone.


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## yaM yaM (Nov 9, 2003)

It is the epitome of arrogance for one to think they know better than another what they, themselves, should do in their own life.


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## GalateaDunkel (Jul 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spughy*
And I think that is the key differentiator right there: a woman WILL give up on bf'ing if the pain and anguish she is experiencing are worse than how she will feel for the rest of her life if she uses formula. If she can't face herself after she feeds her baby formula (exclusively, I mean - any bm is better than none at all) then she will keep breastfeeding no matter what.

The phrase "unable to face herself" is sticking in my head. Please think about what that phrase really means - what the life and relationships of a person who was "unable to face herself" would really be like. Because I can't believe you actually think that anyone who can't hack the bleeding-nipples routine deserves to have a hardcore psychological breakdown. And how, exactly, would that be good for the woman's baby?









If I hadn't stuck with breastfeeding I would have felt quite guilty. But I wouldn't be unable to face myself. "Unable to face yourself" is for the Andrea Yates of this world, not the NYCVeg's.

Quote:

This is why I think society needs to demonize formula a LOT more and make using it a shameful thing. (Within reason - it has medical applications that should not be ignored. But it should be treated as a drug, not a food.)
Two observations:
unless you think the use of necessary drugs should be a shameful, demonized act, you are explicitly contradicting yourself, and

the way the standard "medical necessity" disclaimer was so easily appended to the stuff about how women who give up on BF should be *"demonized"* and *"unable to face themselves"* and be in *"pain and anguish"* for *"the rest of her life"* shows how little such disclaimers are really worth as they are thrown about in MDC BF discussions. Apparently, as long as you tack that on at the beginning or end of your post, you can attack other women without limit.


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *May May*
It is the epitome of arrogance for one to think they know better than another what they, themselves, should do.

Yes.
I will say this:
I trust completely every mother here to know exactly what their limits are when it comes to breastfeeding.


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## Moonprysm (Jun 2, 2006)

I have to say that this post upset me quite a bit. There are people here saying "That's not the mentality here" and going on to put down ff moms in the same paragraph.

My DS gets about 1/3 of his nutrition from breastmilk. I did absolutely everything. He was a month early, had thrush for the first 2 months, couldn't latch, then used a nipple shield. I was on fenugreek, blessed thistle, drank mother's milk tea, used domperidone and I'm now on Reglan.

There were times when I hated my son. And if that would've continued, I would've stopped breastfeeding in an instant. There are much more important things than breastfeeding.

The biggest thing I learned through this is that being pro-breastfeeding is more important than being anti-formula. I was so overcome with guilt when we had to start giving him formula that I actually refused to give him more than 1 or 2 bottles a day. He stayed on my breasts almost 24 hours. And 2 or 3 weeks later when I took him to the pediatrician, he was malnurished and dehydrated.

Nobody should ever be made to feel guilty for having to use formula. Do I judge the mothers that ff from birth? Yeah. But to tell a woman that she didn't try hard enough, or that her reasons for stopping breastfeeding aren't justified is terrible.

I'd heard this "most of women who stop was because of misinformation" crap. And if that hadn't been so drilled into my head that it's possible for almost everyone, then maybe we wouldn't have gone through the terrible time we went through with my son already being early, low birth weight, and then malnutritioned because of my stupid pride.


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## kalirush (Jun 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Moonprysm*
Nobody should ever be made to feel guilty for having to use formula. Do I judge the mothers that ff from birth? Yeah. But to tell a woman that she didn't try hard enough, or that her reasons for stopping breastfeeding aren't justified is terrible.

This is so right. In fact, I think this is the heart of the problem with the lactivist movement.

Julia


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg*
I just wanted to say thank you for saying this. My dd is 2-months old and we have had a horrific nursing battle (cracked/bleeding nipples, several rounds of thrush...dd has a somewhat problematic palate and I have Raynaud's syndrome). We're still nursing exclusively, but it has been horrible. To make matters worse, I was (am?) suffering from some depression and the nursing pain was making things far worse. I was so emotionally destroyed from the way that nursing was going that it was really preventing me from bonding properly with my dd. I started seeing a therapist, and I *think* (hope) we'll make it through.

But, I felt too embarrassed to post some of this on MDC. I know there are so many mamas here who have worked through worse pain, and I felt like I wasn't as good a mother as they were, that I wasn't trying hard enough, that the failure was all my fault. I spent so much time crying, not only over the way nursing was going, but even more at the thought of giving my dd formula--and wondering if I could ever show my face in AP circles again. I felt that if I gave my dd even one bottle of formula to provide myself with some relief, I would have to spend the rest of my life wondering if every cold or illness she got was my fault. I can't tell you how hard this was--and it made the bonding issues with my dd even worse. As I said, things have seemed a bit better in the past week or so and I'm trying to be optimistic. But I do feel that mothers here are sometimes shamed for their choices and I think that seeing and fearing that shame actually made my post-partum/nursing issues worse.









I am, so sorry that you had to deal with feeling judged and shamed on top of everything else.

I truly love this site and the magazine but while the boards were down I realized that I needed to pull back from here and some other "AP" activities because the level of judgment and shaming that goes on at times is too much.

Shay


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## treemom2 (Oct 1, 2003)

What concerns me about threads like these is I feel in a lot of ways we are once again giving moms who have not truely tried to BF an out--a free ticket to FF because we don't want to judge them and we really don't know what they have tried and we must respect what is best for them--BS!!!! Like I said before MOST women can BF!!!! There are very few medical reasons a woman can't BF if she truely tries. I'm not saying there aren't women out there who haven't had troubles in this area because as this thread points out there are a lot here who have had troubles I can't begin to imagine and have continued the BFing relationship even if they have had to supplement some with formula. Hats off to these women!! Again in answer to the question: I'm sorry but everything should be tried--even if it means some discomfort or emotional distress--you signed up for motherhood and sometimes that means we must sacrifice some of ourselves for our children's best interest.


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## kalirush (Jun 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treemom2*
What concerns me about threads like these is I feel in a lot of ways we are once again giving moms who have not truely tried to BF an out--a free ticket to FF because we don't want to judge them and we really don't know what they have tried and we must respect what is best for them--BS!!!!

Okay, I'm going to say it. I don't CARE how anyone feeds their child. I. DON'T. CARE. I don't think it's my business. I don't think it's your business. I think it's the business of the parents and the child, given that the parents are meeting the basic needs of the child. And here, let me digress to say that formula qualifies as meeting those basic needs. It is "nutritionally adequate" (and no more) to quote a book that I just read.

It's not your job, or my job, or MDC's job to give or deny any mother any sort of ticket, free or otherwise.

I do think it's our job (and here I feel like I ought to be over on the Lactivism board) to do our best to remove roadblocks from women who WANT to breastfeed. To advocate for legal protection. To advocate for the cultural normalization of bf. To advocate against ignorance and sabotage by medical personnel. For that matter, to try to educate so that more women have the knowledege to want to bf.

But it is NOT our job to decide whether an individual mom's feeding choice was right or wrong.

Julia


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treemom2*
What concerns me about threads like these is I feel in a lot of ways we are once again giving moms who have not truely tried to BF an out--a free ticket to FF because we don't want to judge them and we really don't know what they have tried and we must respect what is best for them--BS!!!! Like I said before MOST women can BF!!!! There are very few medical reasons a woman can't BF if she truely tries. I'm not saying there aren't women out there who haven't had troubles in this area because as this thread points out there are a lot here who have had troubles I can't begin to imagine and have continued the BFing relationship even if they have had to supplement some with formula. Hats off to these women!! Again in answer to the question: I'm sorry but everything should be tried--even if it means some discomfort or emotional distress--you signed up for motherhood and sometimes that means we must sacrifice some of ourselves for our children's best interest.

Thank you!!


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalirush*
It is "nutritionally adequate" (and no more) to quote a book that I just read.

It is nutritionally INFERIOR by Far!
FF by choice is wrong, no way around it.


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## kalirush (Jun 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm*
It is nutritionally INFERIOR by Far!
FF by choice is wrong, no way around it.

It lets babies grow from infanthood to adulthood without starving to death. It is therefore nutritionally adequate, if no more than that.

And don't be silly. There is no way to absolutely say that choosing to FF is the wrong choice in every situation. Most situations? Maybe. But not every case. For example, you going to sit there and tell the 19 year old who just gave birth to a child whose father shot himself while the babe was in utero and doesn't even want to hold the child because the babe looks like the dad that she'd best whip out that boob? If she had, more power to her. But she didn't want to, and I'll stand by her that it was the right choice for her to make at the time.

I hate that I'm defending formula feeding in this thread.








: I bf, my mom bf'd, and I've been advocating for bf since I was in my teens. But there needs to be respect for other mothers here.

Julia


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalirush*
It lets babies grow from infanthood to adulthood without starving to death. It is therefore nutritionally adequate, if no more than that.

And don't be silly. There is no way to absolutely say that choosing to FF is the wrong choice in every situation. Most situations? Maybe. But not every case. For example, you going to sit there and tell the 19 year old who just gave birth to a child whose father shot himself while the babe was in utero and doesn't even want to hold the child because the babe looks like the dad that she'd best whip out that boob? If she had, more power to her. But she didn't want to, and I'll stand by her that it was the right choice for her to make at the time.

I hate that I'm defending formula feeding in this thread.







: I bf, my mom bf'd, and I've been advocating for bf since I was in my teens. But there needs to be respect for other mothers here.

Julia

Wow, cuz that senario is SO common, right?







: No matter WHAT the circumstances...each baby is entitled to BM, why can't people grasp that!? Some mothers can't provide it, I understand, but those who can should!!


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## kalirush (Jun 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm*
Wow, cuz that senario is SO common, right?







: No matter WHAT the circumstances...each baby is entitled to BM, why can't people grasp that!? Some mothers can't provide it, I understand, but those who can should!!

I never said it was common. You're the one who said that FF by choice was "wrong, no way around it."

I say, it's not always, 100% of the time wrong. I'm not trying to advocate for FF by choice generally. I'm just trying to say that, look- we're all mothers trying to do the best for our babies. Stop trying to decide whether another mother's particular decision was right or wrong, or whether she's a good or a bad mother and maybe go out and use that energy for something positive. Like, getting the government to actually limit formula marketing for real. Or trying to get more doctors to know the real legit basics of human lactation. Or... the list goes on.

Julia


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## may05mommy (Jul 20, 2006)

Quote:

I'd heard this "most of women who stop was because of misinformation" crap.
I feel like this is directed at me, so let me clarify.

The reason formula was invented is because there were situations in which a mother couldn't breastfeed.

Lorax, NYCVeg, everyone else in their situations--I am so sorry that you went through that. I am as pro-breastfeeding as they come, and I can't say for sure that I would have kept doing it under those circumstances--







to you for being that committed.

The problem isn't with situations in which a woman genuinely can't breastfeed, in which the baby is starving or in which the mother's nipples are bleeding profusely and scarred, or still excruciatingly sore after many months.

The problem is that a few generations ago, the medical community decided that formula was better than breastmilk, and everyone formula-fed. We've gotten so far removed from the days in which breastfeeding was the norm, that many women don't have any idea what is normal or how to get started anymore--and our parents' generation and the medical community are far too quick to encourage a woman to go to formula. The mainstream parenting advice for feeding infants and teaching them to sleep is geared around formula-feeding. I was told I might have to do it when I had not even had a chance to try breastfeeding--and this was by a pediatrician. I was told when DS was three months old, "You need to give him some formula so he'll sleep through the night." Umm...maybe I'm not in a hurry?

Yes, there are some women who can't breastfeed, and they should not be made to feel guilty for using formula. Julia is right--our goal should be encouraging mothers to breastfeed and helping them to get started and continue with it. Our goal should not be "demonizing" formula per se, but making breastfeeding the norm and formula-feeding the exception.

Hope that makes more sense. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalirush*
we're all mothers trying to do the best for our babies.

No. You've never heard another mother say "I FF. It's just as good." Or, "I don't want to BF, it's not for me, it's gross..." That is NOT "trying to do what's best for our babies."


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm*
No. You've never heard another mother say "I FF. It's just as good." Or, "I don't want to BF, it's not for me, it's gross..." That is NOT "trying to do what's best for our babies."

I believe we're at MDC, and I've never heard an MDC mother say that.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82*
I believe we're at MDC, and I've never heard an MDC mother say that.

Oh, sorry - I thought we meant people in general...how many 19YO's who can't even look @ their baby cuz they look like the dead DH have you met on MDC?


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

what on earth are we all fighting for?

please leave the word "martyr" out of this conversation. I mentioned pumping blood, but I never, NEVER, would tell someone else that they have to go as far as I did to bf their child. I'm a SAHM. I have no other kids. I have the resources and time to pump for as long as I have- and at this point, down to four times a day, it barely even bothers me anymore. Yet I completely understand that someone else, who has more kids, who has a high needs kid, who has to WOH, or whatever- would not go this far.

what we were asked is, if it's worth it. And if you choose to go to great lengths to breastfeed in the face of adversity, it IS worth it, for your child. Still, everyone gets to choose whether or not it's worth it FOR THEM, obviously, because breastfeeding rates are abysmally low. I don't think it's a bad thing to have a place to go like MDC where other mothers can offer alternatives to try, offer support to keep going, and provide information- because many people, including myself, may never received this anywhere else, from anywhere else.

I care what other babies are fed, because I care about babies.

To the other EP'ing mama who feels like you're not sure if it was worth it-







I bet it was. You never know if your dd would have developed reflux, or allergies, or become ill more often, etc. She has lowered risks of cancer, so do you- it sounds like the awful time you had with nursing was even more of a stressor than the EP'ing. Sometimes I think more people should EP- if you can let go of the dream of the nursing relationship, EP'ing becomes a tedious, inconvenient, frustrating chore, but at least you're not feeling like a failure at bf'ing with a screaming infant at the breast who's losing weight etc. I always knew from Day 1 that dd could never nurse (cleft palate) and I have none of the guilt or feelings of failure that other EP'ing moms who had problems with latch or things of that nature. I dunno. I'm rambling


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

What about the momma who has to go back to work at Walmart to keep a roof over her and her baby's head at 6wks PP (if she's lucky) And there are more of those women out there than you think....They aren't allowed pumping breaks, hell they are barely allowed to go PEE let alone pump. What do you suppose those women do?


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## Mohawk River (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bri276*
what on earth are we all fighting for?

please leave the word "martyr" out of this conversation. I mentioned pumping blood, but I never, NEVER, would tell someone else that they have to go as far as I did to bf their child. I'm a SAHM. I have no other kids. I have the resources and time to pump for as long as I have- and at this point, down to four times a day, it barely even bothers me anymore. Yet I completely understand that someone else, who has more kids, who has a high needs kid, who has to WOH, or whatever- would not go this far.

what we were asked is, if it's worth it. And if you choose to go to great lengths to breastfeed in the face of adversity, it IS worth it, for your child. Still, everyone gets to choose whether or not it's worth it FOR THEM, obviously, because breastfeeding rates are abysmally low. I don't think it's a bad thing to have a place to go like MDC where other mothers can offer alternatives to try, offer support to keep going, and provide information- because many people, including myself, may never received this anywhere else, from anywhere else.

I care what other babies are fed, because I care about babies.

To the other EP'ing mama who feels like you're not sure if it was worth it-







I bet it was. You never know if your dd would have developed reflux, or allergies, or become ill more often, etc. She has lowered risks of cancer, so do you- it sounds like the awful time you had with nursing was even more of a stressor than the EP'ing. Sometimes I think more people should EP- if you can let go of the dream of the nursing relationship, EP'ing becomes a tedious, inconvenient, frustrating chore, but at least you're not feeling like a failure at bf'ing with a screaming infant at the breast who's losing weight etc. I always knew from Day 1 that dd could never nurse (cleft palate) and I have none of the guilt or feelings of failure that other EP'ing moms who had problems with latch or things of that nature. I dunno. I'm rambling









I hope you do not think I singled you out by going on about the blood thing!







I have read that MANY times. That is why I used it, not because of you! No offense, please!









I feel like the point of this thread has become very deeply lost. The origional question was "breastmilk at any cost?", and it has boiled back down to the old, FF by choice is WRONG! Well, der, that's not what we're talking about!

My first nursing experience sucked. I weaned early do to many issues. Was later made to feel horrible by other mother's online, and then re-lactated, and exclusively pumped for the next two years. Hence my oldest was supplemented with formula from day one. He was formula fed from three months to fifteen months of age. He is smart, healthy, lovingly attached, and doesn't wet the bed! (From the lactivism bord...)

Now, thankfully, my second and now third nursing relationships have been EXCELLENT. Just the way I always imagined.

If I had a fourth baby, and we had nursing issues that couldn't be overcome, and I cringed when it was time to feed, and couldn't enjoy the beauty of nursing for the horrible pain I felt, and couldn't even recognize my own nipples, then I would look at my sweet Hunter, who is on every level of his brother Wolf (an EBF baby), I would switch to ABM, and bottle nurse my fourth HEALTHY and SMART child!


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
What about the momma who has to go back to work at Walmart to keep a roof over her and her baby's head at 6wks PP (if she's lucky) And there are more of those women out there than you think....They aren't allowed pumping breaks, hell they are barely allowed to go PEE let alone pump. What do you suppose those women do?

Do you honestly think NO mother has provided BM in spite of this, or similar circumstances? Really?!


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

I breastfeed my daughter because it's healthiest for her and for me. However, I want better for her as a woman than having "pumped 8 oz of blood to feed baby" be the gold standard for motherhood. Good lord. Queen Victoria is dead, people, onward and upward.


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

Quote:

I don't know that a bf baby whose mom is numb, frustrated, depressed and angry is truly better off than a ff baby whose mom can attach to her.
Early on I highlighted this to quote because it resonated with me. Then I went on to read the whole thread and I couldn't remember what I had copied and if I still wanted to comment on it.....but I do.

ITA with NYCVeg (and we are in the same DDC so I have reading about her heart-wrenching physical and emotional pain and supporting her as best I can).

I have also taught prenatal and mommy and baby yoga for several years now. In this role I have had several mothers share their birth and breastfeeding challenges with me and I have cried and grieved with them. and IT HAS CHANGED ME. Deeply...in my core.

I am a tandem nursing mother and very much consider myself a lactavist. I started a birith network in my state, I write letters to the newspaper, NIP all over the place, and look for every opportunity I can find to support breastfeeding in any way I can. I love helping other mothers breastfeed and I want to do everything I can to remove the MANY, MANY barriers to breastfeeding....but I have also experienced the deep pain that mamas who tried....and I mean TRIED....NYCVeg level of trying....and decided that what they were sacrificing (mental health, physical health, marital relations, PPD) was too great.

I have seen the shame in their eyes when they have to pull out a bottle. I see the tears when other mamas in the class talk glowingly about nursing. And I want to support these wonderful women as much as I want to support breastfeeding.

I do not think the 'formula is evil' approach and passing judgment on mamas who choose to FF (for whatever reason) does any good for anyone. Write letters, lobby senators, work for more baby-friendly hospitals, nurse out, nurse in.....but PLEASE be gentle with your words and with each other. You really don't know what she is experiencing/has experienced and while many of you seem to think that "making the best choice" for one's family is a cop out....isn't that what we are all doing???

Whether we are undereducated, un-supported, uninformed, ignorant....or if we are long-time MDC-ers who have all the information but bodies/babies who don't seem to want to cooperate with our plan.....we're all doing the best we can with the cards we've been dealt.


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## Mohawk River (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm*
Do you honestly think NO mother has provided BM in spite of this, or similar circumstances? Really?!

But see this goes back to leaving it to the mother to know what she is up to. There are mothers who work outside of the home, and yet manage to breastfeed, AND homeschool!!! Yeah, I've talked to them!!!







: Then there are mothers with ONE baby, and a husband who willingly comes home from a full day of work to clean and cook and wash laundry, and yet are so overwhelmed by emotions, that they really just can't nurse. That demand is just too much on them. Even their therapist can't tell them why, it just is, and in that case the baby is better off being FF, because it has a better mother for it. And yes, I've known a few mothers like this too, (I was once in depression circles, ok?).

Some moms will use the cigarette break to pump in the filthy bathroom with a crappy-ass gerber pump. She isn't a martyr. Other moms will not hold up to that, and will only night nurse. They are not bad moms. And yet others, will be so overwhelmed with their crappy Wal-Mart job, and their family needs, that they'll wean when they return to work. and they're good moms too.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
What about the momma who has to go back to work at Walmart to keep a roof over her and her baby's head at 6wks PP (if she's lucky) And there are more of those women out there than you think....They aren't allowed pumping breaks, hell they are barely allowed to go PEE let alone pump. What do you suppose those women do?

Come now, she can strap the pumps to her breast while she is checking out the customers at Wally's.







: (sorry, I needed to lighten the mood, excuse my poor manners)

Realistically I agree that there are a lot more of those women then many of us are aware of.

I don't know, reading this thread I am once again saddened by how cut and dry so many Mamas make it.

I was a 19 yo old Mama who ff'd my first child, 14 years later I am nursing my almost 1 yo dd.. it was lack of information that prevented me from nursing ds, however with knowledge I probably still would have chosen to FF'd him.







:

I just was not in the head space to nurse and at 19, well... I barely knew me and while I have regrets I most certainly haven't spent the past 14 years saddened because ds got no BM.

In the end, its society that needs the overhaul to nromalize breastfeeding in general, not beating up on individial Mamas. KWIM?

Shay


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## Mohawk River (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmama*
I have seen the shame in their eyes when they have to pull out a bottle. I see the tears when other mamas in the class talk glowingly about nursing. And I want to support these wonderful women as much as I want to support breastfeeding.

I do not think the 'formula is evil' approach and passing judgment on mamas who choose to FF (for whatever reason) does any good for anyone. Write letters, lobby senators, work for more baby-friendly hospitals, nurse out, nurse in.....but PLEASE be gentle with your words and with each other. You really don't know what she is experiencing/has experienced and while many of you seem to think that "making the best choice" for one's family is a cop out....isn't that what we are all doing???

Whether we are undereducated, un-supported, uninformed, ignorant....or if we are long-time MDC-ers who have all the information but bodies/babies who don't seem to want to cooperate with our plan.....we're all doing the best we can with the cards we've been dealt.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmama*

I do not think the 'formula is evil' approach and passing judgment on mamas who choose to FF (for whatever reason) does any good for anyone. Write letters, lobby senators, work for more baby-friendly hospitals, nurse out, nurse in.....but PLEASE be gentle with your words and with each other. You really don't know what she is experiencing/has experienced and while many of you seem to think that "making the best choice" for one's family is a cop out....isn't that what we are all doing???

Whether we are undereducated, un-supported, uninformed, ignorant....or if we are long-time MDC-ers who have all the information but bodies/babies who don't seem to want to cooperate with our plan.....we're all doing the best we can with the cards we've been dealt.









:









Shay


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## Zyla (Nov 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmama*

I have also taught prenatal and mommy and baby yoga for several years now. In this role I have had several mothers share their birth and breastfeeding challenges with me and I have cried and grieved with them. and IT HAS CHANGED ME. Deeply...in my core.

I am a tandem nursing mother and very much consider myself a lactavist. I started a birith network in my state, I write letters to the newspaper, NIP all over the place, and look for every opportunity I can find to support breastfeeding in any way I can. I love helping other mothers breastfeed and I want to do everything I can to remove the MANY, MANY barriers to breastfeeding....but I have also experienced the deep pain that mamas who tried....and I mean TRIED....NYCVeg level of trying....and decided that what they were sacrificing (mental health, physical health, marital relations, PPD) was too great.

I have seen the shame in their eyes when they have to pull out a bottle. I see the tears when other mamas in the class talk glowingly about nursing. And I want to support these wonderful women as much as I want to support breastfeeding.

I do not think the 'formula is evil' approach and passing judgment on mamas who choose to FF (for whatever reason) does any good for anyone. Write letters, lobby senators, work for more baby-friendly hospitals, nurse out, nurse in.....but PLEASE be gentle with your words and with each other. You really don't know what she is experiencing/has experienced and while many of you seem to think that "making the best choice" for one's family is a cop out....isn't that what we are all doing???

Whether we are undereducated, un-supported, uninformed, ignorant....or if we are long-time MDC-ers who have all the information but bodies/babies who don't seem to want to cooperate with our plan.....we're all doing the best we can with the cards we've been dealt.









:


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

No, NOT everyone is doing the best they can - you cannot honestly believe that...


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm*
No, NOT everyone is doing the best they can - you cannot honestly believe that...









Ummmm yes. I honestly do.

Not everyone is doing the best that YOU can...or that I can...or that HUMANS in general can. But I do believe that all individuals are doing the best that they can in their current circumstances (genetics, education, support, physical/mental health, environment etc. etc.).


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

So you think moms who just don't give a flip aren't real?


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## mamacatsbaby (Jul 27, 2005)

Wow! Very emotional, heated thread.

Great post Erin. ITA.









Amanda and all you mamas that have been or are going through hell to BF







.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm*
Do you honestly think NO mother has provided BM in spite of this, or similar circumstances? Really?!

Ok, say they choose to breastfeed during those 6 weeks at home, great. But then they are forced back to work, not allowed to pump, and umm guess what, Engorgement, mastitis and a whole slew of other problems kick in due to cold turkey weaning. Babe rejects the breast after work due to nipple confusion, you see the rest of it right?

6 weeks of breastmilk, great! but then the mom loses work hours and possibly her job/homefrom treating a raging case of mastitis due to the fact she's not allowed to pump at work, let alone take a pee break.

There are MANY barriers to establishing a succesful breastfeeding relationship. I consider myself DAMN lucky to have had the support structure I did when I had my DD. My midwives, my mother, all worked in synch by giving me enough opportunities to nurse, overcome latch problems and whatnot, I breastfed my DD for only 8 months, because I KNOW I was uneducated about older baby's nursing habits, and didn't have much other support from my mother (whom only nursed me for 3 months before putting me onto home made formula) to get through a nursing strike.

I'm determined this time to make it last for as long as I possibly can. Mostly for my childs health. Her father has some severe environmental and food allergies, and if i can combat that (I only have very mild environmental allergies) through breastfeeding I will.

I just refuse to pass judgement on those moms who have to get back into the workforce at 2-6 weeks Post partum, who just dont see the point in starting it because it will have to end so soon and they'll cause themselves serious pain and possible infection from suddenly having to stop.

There are women out there who HAVE to be on medication that isn't safe for lactation. There are women out there who lost both breasts to a double mastectomy. There are women who have to go back to school/work as soon as they birth. Some mommas are even commited to Mental hospitals due to post partum psychosis...no contact with their children allowed.

This is part of the Lactivist movement that irks me. I'm all for breastfeeding, and I believe every woman who can, should at least give it a go. But, I do realize NOT EVERY WOMAN CAN. Some, have to go back to a sweatshop job. Some, get sick, either physically or mentally and can't do it.

Sure it's damn easy to give up. And it takes alot of hard work and effort to keep the breastfeeding relationship going, in the face of the cultural blockades. But dont judge the mommas for whom the cultural blockades are too high, such as the single momma who works at Walmart for $6/hr to scrape enough money for a bachelor roach apartment for her and her baby to come home to every night....


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## KnitLady (Jul 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nisupulla*
In Sweden more than 50% of the infants are still breastfeeding at 6 months. In the U.S., only about 20% are still breastfeeding at 6 months. Clearly, the reasons for the difference is not that women are unable to breastfeed.

Well, I'm new here, so I haven't seen a lot of the judging the op is talking about.

I totally agree with the above quote!

Honestly, I do silently judge women who don't even try or don't try very hard. I think it's not fair to their babies! Obviously there are times when a woman really can't bf. Most of the time though, the women I hear talking about this IRL really didn't give it an honest try.

I didn't have an easy start with my son. I remember going into my closet and crying my eyeballs out b/c I feared he'd never latch on. It was hard! I could have just whipped out all those free formula samples that arrived in the mail and told my friends, "Oh, I tried to bf, but he just couldn't latch on."

I have a lot of respect for ladies who try and try to bf, even if it doesn't work out in the end.

Casey


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## kalirush (Jun 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm*
No, NOT everyone is doing the best they can - you cannot honestly believe that...









First of all, dharmama, you rock, that's exactly what I was trying to say.

Secondly, rmzbm: I guess my response is... AND? It's just that

1) I don't see how it's possible for *you* to decide which mamas are doing their best and which mamas aren't

and

2) Even if it were, what *precisely* do you think is served by pinning "good mommy" and "bad mommy" badges on people? Do you think it will up the bf rate?

What are you gonna do- advocate taking their kids away because they ff by choice because they don't like being inconvenienced? 'Cause trust me, as someone who probably cosleeps and doesn't vax, you don't want to get into that.

Julia


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## DQMama (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Do you really think that breastfeeding is SO important that it is worth enduring weeks and months of pain and frustration, exhaustion, and/or compromising one's mental health?

No.

Here is my story. I bf ds for 2 yrs. I had a super easy start and absolutely no problems. I was very judgmental towards anyone who said they could not bf.

Enter dd. She has moderate reflux and at the age of 3 months absolutely refused to nurse unless she was asleep or very very sleepy. I gave up dairy and soy, all spicy foods and normal culprits and still she would not nurse. Six weeks later, after a month that included many days of calling dh at 4:30 (he's supposed to leave work at that time but usually can't) and begging him to come home, then he would come home to find me, ds, and dd in tears, I decided to give up and pump exclusively. (At this point ds was so jealous that he was exhibiting signs of childhood depression. Dd was getting so much attention and I was trying everything I could think of to get her to nurse. I used all the LLL suggestions on nursing strikes (in the tub, standing up pacing in the sling, etc.)

Finally it got so bad that she would _turn her head away from me in her sleep and purse her lips shut tightly_. She hated nursing THAT MUCH.

But, she would not drink my pumped milk. I decided, finally, to try formula and see if she would drink that.

Thank God, she would not drink it, or she would now be formula fed.

I had to keep trying. We saw a GI specialist who put her on Prevacid which was scary for me but within 4 days she was nursing again.

So, that is our story. It was not worth my sanity, my son's mental health, my daughter's physical health, and my husband's sanity, for me to keep trying to nurse her. Had there been another option, I would have given up.

I never thought it would happen to me and now I feel sorry for all those that I judged without walking in their shoes.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

oh and the women who just dont give a flip, they exist, I personally knew several. I also knew one woman who could NOT breastfeed due to some severe sexual and physical abuse in her past that involved her breasts (Read her stepfather raped her then burnt her nipples off with a cigarete)

So yeah I know mommas who didn't give a flip about breastfeeding and thought their breasts were toys for their significant others, but I dont let those bad apples spoil the barrel of the ones who genuinely have difficulty, be it physical, emotional, or cultural.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalirush*
As long as the babies are being basically cared for and not abused...

WOW!! So "not abused" is the standard??!! WOW!! And the argument that FF grows infants to adulthood is a selling point?! Cuz from 6 weeks up I grew on cow's milk. I'm alive so it's OK & safe, right? And some moms truly do not give a crap, despite being offered TONS of help. My mother is one.


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## mamacatsbaby (Jul 27, 2005)

That's aweful Marie







to have a mama that doesn't seem to care.


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## kalirush (Jun 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm*
WOW!! So "not abused" is the standard??!! WOW!! And the argument that FF grows infants to adulthood is a selling point?! Cuz from 6 weeks up I grew on cow's milk. I'm alive so it's OK & safe, right? And some moms truly do not give a crap, despite being offered TONS of help. My mother is one.

By the way, I posted that and then spent 10 minutes trying to edit it out, and I edited it before anyone actually responded. It was poorly chosen wording.

Let me reiterate:

I do not think formula feeding by choice is good (usually)
I do not think formula feeding is as healthy as breastmilk, which is the standard

These are not the points up for debate. My point is this:

From a practical standpoint, what do you intend to do about it? Dharmama advocated giving other mothers the benefit of the doubt, and being gentle with each other. You seem to disagree. So, what exactly do you advocate doing? Should we go around bringing ff moms to task for formula feeding? And if so, what practical benefit do you think that will bring?

Julia


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## Mohawk River (Jul 22, 2006)

nevermind


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamacatsbaby*
That's aweful Marie







to have a mama that doesn't seem to care.









Thank you. She actually left me in a crib for 3 days & went off to party with guys she met at a bar. When my dad got back (was out of state) my diaper was stuck to my head & he couldn't take it off as my skin was coming off with it. Amazing I was alive, hu? That was what got my paternal Granparents custody of me @ 6 weeks. And that cow's milk was WAY better for me than if my "mother" had nursed me, not that she ever would have. So, BELIEVE ME, I understand sometimes breast isn't better...but this was extreme. And in other extreme situations I say - FF! But, for the majority, BFing is VERY possible & not to is WRONG!


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mohawk River*

Mine abandoned me when I was five months old. But there was a reason she "Didn't give a crap." There is always a reason, and although many don't see it, it is extremely valid to those in question. My mother didn't not give a crap just for the sake of not giving a crap. She honestly was doing her best. And it WAS her best. I had an excellent childhood without her AND her drugged-up breastmilk! So although your mom didn't give a crap, it wasn't because she didn't give a crap. KWIM?

No, there's NOT always a reason. She just didn't want to be a mother. She said so. She also went on to procreate 10 more times & abandon EVERY ONE. Breeder at large!


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## AppleOrangePear (Apr 17, 2004)

Well I didnt read all the replies but I will say for me successful BFing meant lots of support from MY DH! I could write a book about the things i had : DS with a severe tongue tied, foremilk/hindmilk imbalance, way oversupply , nipple issues etc and THAT was just the first couple weeks. I knew what I wanted for my DS and if that meant sitting all day on the couch then I did it because I KNEW we could work at it that nursing is an art. I had a DH willingly help express milk etc etc. I can totally understand a mom feeling totally overwhelmed when nursing doesnt get off to a good start. Ill be honest i had some moments when i just thought i could possibly give him some FRIGGIN free formula that somehow i brought home from the hospital. However when that thought when through my mind for a split second I MADE myself get up , open it and try it. THAT settled it and reminded me what was best for my son . I knew i couldnt and wouldnt do formula however i sure can understand those that had it as hard as i did however I DONT understand the ones that just have lil of this and that. SUPPORT IS SURE NEEDED though AND ONLY from those that have BFING knowledge.
With that said my soon to be 3year old is still nursing
michele


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## AppleOrangePear (Apr 17, 2004)

If you all want to see extreme there is a mainstream parenting board that moms say they refused to BF and that FF is just as good. there reasoning is because they wanted their boobs to be perfect , they wanted to be able to go out and not worry about having to 'feed' the baby however the BEST ( WELL THE WORST) is ONE MAMA DIDNT WANT TO DEAL with the ATTACHMENT OF IT! I SWEAR someone said that.. She didnt want baby depending on HER!










Michele


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nisupulla*
I haven't seen a lot of shaming and judging. I've seen a lot of frustration that what women are calling an inability to breastfeed is really a lack of support and good information.

Certainly, there are many challenges and barriers, we live in a bottle feeding culture that is slow to adopt change.

I don't believe that there are many people here are willing to decide for someone else how much exhaustion, pain and frustration is reasonable.

There are a lot of myths out there such as breastfeeding increasing the risk of depression.

I haven't witnessed the "breastfeed or die trying" mentality here on MDC. Can't say it doesn't exist, either.

Perfect example, if Jack Newman wasn't able to help, this is probably a case where the mom was unable to BF.

Many women, like your friend, jump through more hurdles than I would be willing to in order to breastfeed.

I just don't see what you see, that people who don't BF are not treated as people, that people generally accuse others of "failing their babies."

The bottom line is people need support and good info in order to breastfeed. And yes breastfeeding is worth a considerable effort. But each mom needs to decide for herself what she is willing or capable of.

I don't think many people here would question a mom who said, "I know there are risks if I don't BF, but given my current circumstances/knowledge/support I'm not going to do it."

Maybe I'm wrong.

No, you're not wrong, what a lovely, thoughtful post. Welcome, Nisupulla!


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## mama-a-llama (Feb 8, 2006)

I think we've strayed from the original focus of this thread into the FF by choice debate. We weren't talking about women who FF to keep their breasts perky, or so they don't have to be attached to their child. We were talking about judging women who struggle and make a choice about how much mother's milk is worth.

You just can't win around here. I daily make the choice between spending time with my kids, and being fully attached, and providing mother's milk for my baby. I'm not going to pump full time beyond a year. My kids need their mom back. I feel really bad about it though, especially b/c I'm a perfectionist, and I see other mamas pumping longer and think I should be able to make it work.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
(As a side note, a pet peeve: BFers who blithely say that they would have pumped for 2 years had they had any issues. *snip* Doable, but my god, nothing to just assume you'd do, la ti da, easy-peasy. )

Yeah that.

And another note--the financial cost. Paying for LC visits, pumps, etc, just isn't possible for everyone.


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## operamommy (Nov 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*

Do you really think that breastfeeding is SO important that it is worth enduring weeks and months of pain and frustration, exhaustion, and/or compromising one's mental health?

No, I don't think it's worth compromising one's mental health, and definately not the baby's physical health.







That's why I weaned my son at 5 weeks. I know that it's easy to judge others for "doing what's right for their family" - but at the time it was what was right for my family. I tried with every fiber in my being. I had a babe who had sensory issues and reflux, was not only not gaining weight but actually *losing* it, and who as a newborn was up ALL the time because he couldn't sleep even when held in my arms. This babe had a daddy who was in danger of losing his job because he sat up so many nights (all nighters) with his crying and exhausted wife and son. He had a big sister who cried and wondered what happened to her family, and a big brother who wondered the same. And he had a mama who was so depressed that some days she literally couldn't get out of bed. He had a mama who screamed at him sometimes and wondered why she'd ever had him. He had a mama who felt like she was a total failure as a human being because after enduring this for 5 weeks she couldn't do it anymore. 5 weeks of dr. visits, a hospitalization, too many LC consults to count, and PPD was too much. I reached my limit. And I'm not ashamed to say so. My dh held me many many times as I cried once I decided to wean our babe. I look back now at pictures of my babe at that time, and he was a tiny, shrunken, sick-looking little thing. Our family doctor would call us on the weekends just to see how he was doing. Oh - and we had the "normal" problems too, like never-ending thrush and bleeding nipples. And I look back at mental pictures of myself and want to weep. What a truly horrible time that was.

Maybe some, maybe all of you, can read that and say, "Nope - I would have gotten through it." If so, my hat's off to you - honestly. But I don't think it was a terrible decision to wean my son. He was able to begin gaining weight (and yes, we had already tried just supplementing - his sensory issues would cause him to "shut down" and not continue to feed) and I was able to begin picking back up the pieces of my mental health.

Now we've come through to the other side, and I'm happy to say that the weaning only lasted about 2 months before I relactated. I'm thrilled that I did. And I did it with support of mamas here.









But my journey through weaning and relactating has reminded me to always have compassion for others. Until I've sat down and heard someone's struggles, until I've been part of the family that they "did the best thing for" it's not my place to judge with hardness in my heart. Yeah, I get as irked as anyone over the mamas who never even try to breastfeed, or who wean for "silly" reasons - we all do. But I do try and remember that maybe I don't know the whole story. Sometimes when people asked me why I weaned I'd simply say that it was because my babe was FTT - which was true, but nowhere near the whole story. Some things are too painful to share; there were times when I didn't want to have to explain everything else, you know?


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

The health (including mental) of mom and baby trump breastfeeding, when the two are in conflict.

Personally, I try very hard to not care about other people's choices because when I do care, most of the time it is just my way of trying to feel superior about those I made.

Siobhan


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

I wonder if we aren't biting ourselves in the hinder, when in cases like Operamommy's (love your name, btw) we don't emphasize enough that supplementing does NOT have to be the kiss of death to bfing. As glad as I am that my latter two children never had formula, I am not eating myself alive with guilt because my dd had some, sometimes (bitchy mil who didn't want to handle breastmilk, and I was a wuss). And there are certainly more drastic situations than that.

I do think the emphasis on 'icky, nasty, evil formula' could be counterproductive (it's the formula COMPANIES that are icky, nasty & evil







); I would MUCH rather a struggling mama supplement & be aware that that has NOTHING to do with weaning, that she could give formula every day for years & as long as she attempts to snuggle & nurse, likely some milk will stay in supply & both the bonding & the benefits will be there.

How do we do this, without sabotaging the *early* bfing relationship, & emphasize that saying 'some formula may be fine if you have to' is worlds apart from 'you must wean & wean now'. The whole 'all-or-nothing' scenario.

It grieves me when a woman with bfing difficulties feels like a failure for many reasons, but most of all when the subtext becomes 'well, it doesn't matter now, bind your boobs up & buy some aim, you big loser.' (Not that any of us SAY or FEEL that, but I can grok where with all the earnest encouragement it might seem like it to a woman in the grip of ppd.)

It is a delicate balance. I do feel kind of pissy when people beg off without giving it a good go; it was no bed of roses for me, & it has been implied by others here that my bfing through mastitis & bloody nipples was 'heroic' (or at least that I thought it was) when I consider it normal, expected, & not a huge deal- but I don't really like what I did minimized, either. It WAS tough & I AM proud.

But so is much of what mothering entails (inc birth), & I can't say I would go to the lengths necessary to pump that many mamas here have done. I'd probably have supplemented, if it came to that. And that's OK.

But NOT not bfing by choice, & that does mean no weinying out because of minor problems (LIKE mastitis or bloody falling-off nipples, which in the long run- as in 12 year nursing career long, 4 of them tandem- WERE minor).

I have a question. There is a lot of 'Oh, don't be so harsh here' on these boards. I strongly promote bfing here, & I'm sure I've gotten tarred with the same brush as Marie- the dreaded 'Boob Nazi' (OH, how I hate that epithet).

But since, irl, I am nothing but supportive, even to aquaintences who say things like, "Oh, it just wasn't right for me, I nursed for 2 weeks and it's all I could stand" (as long as they are not asses about me nursing, anyway







), how else can we be effective about presenting the truth about bfing without occasional stridency & earnestness on a message board? Someone has to say it, SOMEWHERE. See, this venue is less personal (not that some people don't try to make it so, but still, in general, you can make a blanket statement & it isn't the same as dumping a load on your neighbor at playdate.)

I'd like there to be a choice. If my playdate mom friend wants support, irl, I'm there, choices I may not support or not. I don't know what led her to her decision. I have to be kind, foremost.

But when she wants to know if she *could* have bf, if she got lousy advice or whatever, are we doing anyone favors by being afraid *here* to SAY, "Hey, have you tried fenugreek?" I save the (((hugs))) for real life. Here, I am a lactivist.

Jeez, sorry for the ramble.


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## au lait (Jul 24, 2006)

_I_ *have* to feed with my breastmilk, at any cost.
However, I decline to judge and/or reprimand others.


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## Boof (Dec 1, 2004)

"wah wah wah! i'm being judged! i'm being judged! waaaah!"

Everyone judges everyone else. It's a fact. If you're polite, you only do it in the space of your own head.

That said, mothering.com is one of the few boards where breastfeeding is the norm so of course those who stray from that norm (for whatever reason) are going to feel odd at times. Don't you feel odd on a mainstream board? Well breastfeeding is mainstream here and people are going to tsk tsk those who don't. Typically it's not directed at those who honestly tried. That is what the Breastfeeding Challenges forum is for.

No one can make you feel anything. Not guilty, not ashamed, not victimized. That is up to you. If you have an issue that you need support for, go ahead and post it. Take the advice you want, ignore the advice you don't want. Some people will openly judge you. So? Who are they to you? If you do feel guilty or judge yourself harshly, you should seek counseling because you have some issues to deal with. I understand. My homebirth turned into a cesarean and I still feel awful about it, but I'm working through that. I get the guilt, I get the whole feeling like you didn't do enough. But that's natural when you try your best to do what you know is right.

I think a lot of people here really need to get over the walking on egg shells because they're either trying to be too polite or are afraid of being judged or flamed. Judging or flaming shows more about the person doing it than the person to whom it is being done.

You'll get more support here than you realize if you just open up and embrace it.


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bri276*
uh, considering I'm sitting here pumping for my 12 month old, and that I've had to pump pretty much every drop she's ever drank, except for what I've hand expressed, I guess I'd have to say, HELL YES, I think it's worth it.

anything that has the potential to dramatically affect my child's health positively is very worth it.

I've pumped more than a half ounce of blood, straight blood, out of my left breast on several occasions, had five bouts of mastitis, open sores on the areola, plugged ducts, blisters. I've sat hunched over a pump in hospitals, cars, at 3 am in my living room crying my eyes out from exhaustion and self pity and frustration wanting to quit more than I ever wanted to quit anything, ever.

But for the record? I don't judge mothers who have quit in the face of less daunting breastfeeding challenges- I judge a society that makes it so freaking hard to get the right info and the right support to keep going, I'm mad at people who call themselves medical professionals who fail at giving correct advice in the most basic situations.

I judge mothers who have all the info on bf'ing and still don't even TRY to nurse their child. Anyone else, I feel mad that they were misinformed, that they didn't have adequate support, that they got bad advice. That's what a lot of people in Lactivism are trying to do- counter the bad advice with good advice, make a bad or nonexistent nursing relationship into a successful one, because it's best for the health of the baby AND mother.


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

"Do you really think that _feeding a baby breastmilk_ is SO important that it is worth enduring weeks and months of pain and frustration, exhaustion, and/or compromising one's mental health?"

Note that I changed the wording there....

Answer? YES.

Before I go on about that, I've read the four pages that popped up today while creating my response.

I personally don't see all that much BAD about guilt. I don't think keeping people from feeling guilty is the be all end all of my existence. I don't fear feeling guilty, in fact, feeling guilty shows me that I'm doing something that's against my principles. Whether or not I can change it is not always known, but to recognize it, I feel, is important. If your body is sensing hypocrisy by FEELING guilt, it's best to get it into your conscious being.

From my ICAN boards, I've learned all that. Feeling guilt, feeling sad, feeling bad, those are not awful horrible never ever feel them things! Neither is feeling sad about the early days if you're struck with sadness. It is what it is, if you feel bad about it that's fine, learn from it, and now that I know better I can do better.

I also think that people misunderstand statistics. Saying that something happens to a very small number of people does NOT mean it won't happen to you. So talking about how MOST of the time "problems" b'feeding are b/c of bad advice given isn't crap, just b/c an individual has experienced major and true difficulties. Most of the time, it really does seem to be nonsense, but SOMETIMES it's going to hit close to home.

So now to my response.

I was allowed access to b'milk for four years, but b/c of early solids I STILL have a junky immune system. If my mom hadn't allowed me to start nursing again after my brother was born, I would have been sicker. As SOON as she weaned me (when my brother self-weaned at 2 and she had to get off welfare and food stamps and get back to minimum wage work) I started getting sick. And not little sicknesses, either. If I'd had NO b'milk? I don't have much faith in my immune system that I would have survived.

I could blame society (edited to move this paragraph down from the above one; my mom nursed me until I was 4 between '69 and '73, NOT the hugest time for b'feeding, so society was not a big part of her decision-making and this paragraph has nothing to do with the above), but then, aren't we all mammals? Shouldn't we have SOME knowledge innately held? Then again, my whole family is into extended nursing, so maybe it's more innate to me than to others. While I don't have explicit support, I also don't have explicit negativity (and since my "if they can ask for it they are too old" friends don't really contact me), so that might buoy me up more.

But, you know, I failed my son in our labor by allowing myself to be thrown to the wolves (those wolves with scalpels), and oh YES I FAILED him no one is allowed to say I didn't fail him, then I had inadequate post-op pain relief for 24 LONG hours before they caught their error, then I was kicked out 43 hours post-op despite NOT being ready and having an insurance company that would have happily paid for 96 hours...I had thrush/yeast for 6 MONTHS, I cried through milk-meals, I cried all the time, I was numb, I was too emotionally raw....and yet I fed him...

(thrush for 6 months? not recommended.)

Oh, and then there was the lovely heart-shaped tongue he had, which I knew would have to be clipped (tongue tie), and as I was preparing myself for the slog to find someone to do it, I brought him to a cranio sacral therapist (even though I am a chiropractor, CST was his first bodywork) and over the course of THAT day, not only did his head change shape, but his latch got better and better, and then the tongue tie disappeared and his heart-shaped tongue became normal. Whew!

Now, I was not someone who ever had to work for supply.

Oh, wait *I take that back*, my "milk" didn't "come in" until the 5th day. If I'd been in the hospital for the full 4 days, that would have likely been a "problem". In that case, I was "lucky" to be sent home to my 3rd floor apartment (no elevator) not even 48 hours post-op. There was no one to bug me about it.

So I had "only" colostrum for into the 5th day...a "problem" for some, NORMAL for me, the mammal, at home and with oodles of b'feeding knowledge behind me.

Society as a problem there? Trusting the medical profession the problem there (and not trusting them helping me)? It's all too intertwined, really. I'd just been failed (along with by my own self) by "homebirth midwives"...as well as a doctor who said baby was WELL OVER 9 lbs when baby wasn't even 8, he was just long and in a weird position...I wasn't going to trust ANYONE but my own mammal self at that point...

But once the milk "came in", it was plentiful, and I was grateful for that. I know there are some women for whom that isn't true.

But see, there are SO many women who are TOLD that they don't have the milk, who have such awful advice...those women NEED to hear the other sides to the stories. So if we all just take everything at face value, what about all those lurkers who are possibly being told lies, untruths, are they to NOT hear what might be more of the truth, just so we aren't seen to be questioning anyone? So we don't hurt someone's feelings?

When I was unwittingly walking down the road to the homebirth midwives I hired throwing me to the wolves, people here were nearly yelling at me to STOP, to fire them, hire new ones, to go UC, just to get AWAY from those women. They were TRYING to get me to listen. Now that I'm on the side of telling women to wake up, I realize that if no one tells it like it generally is, even MORE women will have what happened to me, happen to them. If I peeve 10 women in telling my truth but help ONE woman? I'm happy.

If one lurker realizes she's being fed a line of bull by her lactation consultant and finds another or just goes off and holes up like a mammal with her mammal baby, and if it works and that baby is fed human milk for longer, that's GOOD.

Because it's not always about that one woman asking the question, it's sometimes about the other people reading. And if you don't get all the info, if everyone doesn't use all their words, then full information isn't being given, you know?

I understand it's a pain for someone having problems to have to tell EVERYTHING every time they have a question. Does anyone think it's FUN for me to dredge up all my own failings and the idiocies of others (including my husband) every time I mention that my son arrived via scalpel? But I know that to say it casually might make others feel it's NORMAL. So I tell it, in some form or another, whenever I think there might be someone lurking who might need to hear that their hired help might not be on their side (in my case, "homebirth midwives").

Anyway, I know that to someone who might be feeling down about what is going on, being told that you might have been given awful advice, the situation might not be what it was said to be, and so on, might be very painful. Let me tell you, I know that. I lived it for well over a year as I met others who had been in my situation. And just like my situation, occasionally, you run into people that weren't lied to, where there truly was nothing more to be done, interventative things (formula, in this case) need to be done... I hate those cases, where someone who absolutely couldn't do anything else ends up feeling bad, but it's really not the majority of cases, so many more people are just being given wrong info...I just feel that the truth for the majority of us mammals has to get out there, every time....


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

OK, *Boof* just summarized my entire post in a few paragraphs.







Wish I'd read your reply before working on that all day.


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## nausicaamom (Feb 8, 2006)

Do you really think that breastfeeding is SO important that it is worth enduring weeks and months of pain and frustration, exhaustion, and/or compromising one's mental health?

No, I do not.

I feel that when it comes down to a choice between adequate nutrition (formula) and adequate parenting (burned-out, un-bonded mom), I'm going to have to go with formula. Yes, the health benefits of breastmilk are huge and can have a life-long impact but I feel that the benefits of having a strong mom-baby attachment far outweigh them.


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## Boof (Dec 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollyeilis*
OK, *Boof* just summarized my entire post in a few paragraphs.







Wish I'd read your reply before working on that all day.









No! Thanks for expanding on the same idea!


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## GalateaDunkel (Jul 22, 2005)

OK, so I think we have a pretty good consensus going, ladies! Good job!









In sum:

_It's OK to be a b!tch to people here, because it's just a website. It's not really *personal*. But everyone who has a less-than-ideal experience needs to be prepared to trot out their *personal* details, in depth, for all of us to scrutinize, every time they ask a question.

Black is White, Freedom is Slavery, and Feeling like crap about yourself is a Good Thing. Making others feel crappy about themselves is even better! Not to mention way more fun!







And I am so addicted to condemning others that I am willing to pay for that privilege by refusing to forgive myself, either. Or wait, is it the other way around?










People who have trouble accomplishing certain tasks should be unable to so much as look at themselves in a mirror without cringing until the day they die, but I can write lengthy, self-involved posts about what a moral heroine I am for acknowledging my own problems in the very same area. 'Cause unlike you, at least I'm mature enough to acknowledge my failures rather than put them off on other people. That's why I'm posting this on a public website for other people to read.

Don't talk back to me. After the tough years I've spent on the front lines of breastfeeding and birth-related activism, I deserve some respect. By "activism," of course, I mean going online and sneering at people I'll never have to face. But that's OK, 'cause they won't be able to face themselves either!









If you express pain after I skewer you for the sensitive details of your personal life, I will mock you as a crybaby. And everybody knows that a baby is the worst possible thing to be compared to. Who are you to feel "judged"? All I did was judge you, not poke you in the eye with a stick. Nobody wants to hear your lame excuses.

How utterly naive of you to expect sensitivity and empathy on a website supposedly dedicated to promoting a gentle way of life.







_


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## JustJamie (Apr 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Dudes. I have seen many posts around here shaming and judging mamas for not breastfeeding, even when they state clearly that they are NOT able to breastfeed. Either there were just too many challenges and barriers at the start and the babes didn't latch, or mama is about to go over the edge emotionally.

Do you really think that breastfeeding is SO important that it is worth enduring weeks and months of pain and frustration, exhaustion, and/or compromising one's mental health?

In addition to being shamed for not breastfeeding, there are others who have been attacked for not breastfeeding "enough".

I very nearly left this community before I had really joined it, simply because I was attacked in one thread based on a statement that my year old daughter nurses once a day, and gets the rest of her nutrition from solid foods.

I was attacked and told that I was malnourishing my child, and told to research nursing strikes and infant nutrition, etc., by women who obviously couldn't know anything about me or my child, because I was new to this community. (And still am new compared to the majority.)

Breastmilk at any cost? No.

I too had issues with breastfeeding at first...largely due to bad information. The only thing that kept me going was the fact that I was pissed off. In my mind, I had failed in my pregnancy, failed in labor, and failed in delivery. There was no way I was going to fail at feeding my child, too.

I count myself lucky. The only problems I had were misinformation and large, flat nipples. I nursed using a nipple shield exclusively for the first 8 weeks. Then we lost the nipple shield at a restaurant one night, and didn't realize it until her next feeding, at 11 pm. I had no choice but to latch on the bare nipple. I decided I would endure a night of pain and a screaming baby, and would replace the shield the next day. To my amazement and delight, DD latched perfectly...that's when I realized that I had been given bad information. We've been nursing well since.

Even still, with an easy breastfeeding relationship, and a daughter who's never tasted formula, I was made to feel guilty and ashamed and like I was a bad mother...simply because I don't breastfeed "enough".

That's pathetic. Especially on a website that is supposed to be about emotional support and wellbeing.

To bring my post back to the original question...no one is qualified to decide what is right for another woman's family. Period, the end. You (general) have no idea what anyone else has endured, or is capable of enduring. You (general) might be stronger than me. I might be stronger than you (general.) The fact is, we are two different people.

Who knows? Maybe if I had had an easier pregnancy/birthing, I would've given up at breastfeeding. If that had been my first obstacle, I don't know that I would have known I had the strength to get through it.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

You (general) have no idea what anyone else has endured, or is capable of enduring. You (general) might be stronger than me. I might be stronger than you (general.) The fact is, we are two different people.










No one who is not me can look at my situation from the outside and tell me if it was "worth it" (or not). Step off if you think you can. Just...step off. Maybe in my exact situation it would have been "worth it" to you. YOU ARE NOT ME.

It may be an inconvenient truth, to borrow a phrase, but I am standing up and being counted. I am one of those women. I put myself through living hell to give my baby breastmilk. And I am telling you: no, I would not do it again. Not like that. The cost was too great. I am so glad my baby got breastmilk. I stand up for breastfeeding and the right to nurse constantly. I live for the dream of nursing another child through toddlerhood. But that child, that nursing nightmare? It was not the right decision for me. The scars are permanent on my body, on my soul, and on our relationship.


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

Yep, we are all different and all have different circumstances, different levels of support, different mental health (or lack there of) different physical health (or lack there of) different spouses, different babies with different health conditions, some have many children and some only have one, different stamina, and no one understands your full situation but you. You wont get any judgement from me since I do not know your situations like you do!!!


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## cielle (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*

It may be an inconvenient truth, to borrow a phrase, but I am standing up and being counted. I am one of those women. I put myself through living hell to give my baby breastmilk. And I am telling you: no, I would not do it again. Not like that. The cost was too great. I am so glad my baby got breastmilk. I stand up for breastfeeding and the right to nurse constantly. I live for the dream of nursing another child through toddlerhood. But that child, that nursing nightmare? It was not the right decision for me. The scars are permanent on my body, on my soul, and on our relationship.

I'm not sure I would either. I EP'd and it was very, very hard. I would never suggest it to anyone. If they want to take in on for themselves, I will support them but I wouldn't expect it of anyone. And if I had not been able to bf my second (thank goddess I could), I would not have ep'd again.


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
That is countless hours of my life--note, too, countless hours attached to my pump, sometimes while my baby cried.
(various other details deleted)
Was it worth it? Was it really worth it? I am not sure.

Thanks for posting this.

This is one of the things that bugs me about the pressure to provide breastmilk at any cost. Is it better to provide breastmilk, or to be able to hold and comfort your baby when she cries during the times you would have spent pumping? Is it better to provide breastmilk, or to spend the pumping time on the floor with your baby, playing? Is it better to provide breastmilk, or to spend that time taking your baby to playgroups, on walks around the neighborhood, to museums, etc.? Is it better to provide breastmilk, or to have more emotional energy for your other children?

Pumping takes time and energy. It makes feeding your baby take at least twice as long as either breastfeeding or bottlefeeding. In order to make that work, you have to make tradeoffs -- there are other things you won't be able to do.

Obviously, deciding whether your time is better spent pumping breastmilk or doing other things with your child(ren) is a very individual one. But I think it is important to remember that good, attentive, attached mothers will see this situation differently. And different babies have different needs, too -- the baby who needs to be constantly worn in motion will make pumping substantially more difficult than the baby who is content to snooze in a baby swing for two hours after every feeding.

Attachment parenting, like everything in life, involves a struggle to balance the different things we value, and make tradeoffs between them.


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## mama-a-llama (Feb 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GalateaDunkel*
If you express pain after I skewer you for the sensitive details of your personal life, I will mock you as a crybaby. And everybody knows that a baby is the worst possible thing to be compared to. Who are you to feel "judged"? All I did was judge you, not poke you in the eye with a stick. Nobody wants to hear your lame excuses.

How utterly naive of you to expect sensitivity and empathy on a website supposedly dedicated to promoting a gentle way of life.







[/i]

Well, that's more eloquent than I was going to be. But I'll say it anyway.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boof*
"wah wah wah! i'm being judged! i'm being judged! waaaah!"

Wow, just wow. Making fun of women who are hurting? Way to kick someone when they're down.Even if the judging is really in their own mind.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treemom2*
What concerns me about threads like these is I feel in a lot of ways we are once again giving moms who have not truely tried to BF an out--a free ticket to FF because we don't want to judge them and we really don't know what they have tried and we must respect what is best for them--BS!!!! Like I said before MOST women can BF!!!! There are very few medical reasons a woman can't BF if she truely tries. I'm not saying there aren't women out there who haven't had troubles in this area because as this thread points out there are a lot here who have had troubles I can't begin to imagine and have continued the BFing relationship even if they have had to supplement some with formula. Hats off to these women!! Again in answer to the question: I'm sorry but everything should be tried--even if it means some discomfort or emotional distress--you signed up for motherhood and sometimes that means we must sacrifice some of ourselves for our children's best interest.

Just curious, but why is this "our" job? Why is our job to judge or justify other people's decisions. Giving advice? Great! Actually rolling up your sleeves and getting out there and volunteering? Even better. But why the heck is it your job to give someone a free ticket?


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm*
Do you honestly think NO mother has provided BM in spite of this, or similar circumstances? Really?!

I think this is a really naive way to look at the situation. Every person has their own capacity for sacrifice. If you are a young mama with a baby in subsidized day care all day and you work at McDonald's with no pumping station and your milk supply slowly dwindles so that every nursing session becomes a fighting struggle with your baby, and relatives and doctors are all pressuring you to give up the last feeding or two, I can see where breastfeeding might seem impossible.

Don't get me wrong--I agree, in theory, that breastmilk is every baby's birthright. And I agree, because I see it all the time, that our society, our families, the medical profession, the formula industry, hell, even our government, work to sabatoge it, either purposely or not. But I find the whole "Breastfeeding or Bust" (LOL!) attitude sanctimonious and judgemental,. Now, I have no problem with judgement when it's followed by action. I have a huge problem with judgement it's just for the sake of making ourselves feel superior at other's expenses.

I think all women should breastfeed and that every baby deserves breastmilk. I am probably more militant on that front than some people here (thismama for example). However, I think that there are extenuating circumstances beyond "the only women who shouldn't breastfeed are those who don't have breasts. And they need to go to a milk bank." Because it's an oversimplification of the issue, and I don't think that helps anyone.

Thismama, thank you for posting this. I'm only on page 4, but I love how respectful it's been so far.

Oh, and I want to say too that I have been in lactivism for over 7 years now. When I started, I was terribly judgemental of women who did not leap tall buildings in single bounds in order to breastfeed. Seven years of rolling up my sleeves and helping women has really helped me see that my previous attitude helped no one. There's a quote, I forget who said it--"There is no such thing as a baby. There is a baby and an other." Something like that. A baby is not an entity of her own. She exists with the mother. They are a dyad. They need to be treated as such.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*

Don't get me wrong--I agree, in theory, that breastmilk is every baby's birthright.

I do too. I did *not* intend to minimize the fact that breastmilk is babies' natural and best food.

Quote:

And I agree, because I see it all the time, that our society, our families, the medical profession, the formula industry, hell, even our government, work to sabatoge it, either purposely or not.
ITA!! This is part of my point. There are so many factors that get in the way of mamas breastfeeding our babes, but the shaming and harsh, personalized judgment is reserved solely for mamas IME.

Quote:

I think that there are extenuating circumstances beyond "the only women who shouldn't breastfeed are those who don't have breasts. And they need to go to a milk bank." Because it's an oversimplification of the issue, and I don't think that helps anyone.
ITA.

And I see that breastfeed or die trying attitude too often in "lactivist" circles, including here.

I think there is a middle ground between the mainstream idea that breastfeeding is not really important or valuable, and this militantism that demands mamas sacrifice to the ends of the earth to bf our children, or we are selfish, lazy, etc etc etc.

I think the militantism and self righteousness is easier for those who have never struggled, or for those who struggled and then succeeded in nursing. And it's easier in theory, when you don't know the mama, don't watch her struggle, don't see what is lost from trying to bf at any cost.

Quote:

I want to say too that I have been in lactivism for over 7 years now. When I started, I was terribly judgemental of women who did not leap tall buildings in single bounds in order to breastfeed. Seven years of rolling up my sleeves and helping women has really helped me see that my previous attitude helped no one. There's a quote, I forget who said it--"There is no such thing as a baby. There is a baby and an other." Something like that. A baby is not an entity of her own. She exists with the mother. They are a dyad. They need to be treated as such.
ITA, ITA, ITA. I feel like there is an expectation that the mama will give up everything, even her sanity, any measure of comfort, freedom from pain, access to sleep and basic needs. Or she is selfish and should never have had the child, dammit!!

Mamas are people too. I know that where my personhood has been erased by mothering (and that didn't happen with breastfeeding, but it happened in other ways), I resented my mama-dom and was not able to parent my child in as loving and giving a way. Where I have been respected, nurtured, and permitted to take care of my own needs, I have felt more loved, loving, and more filled with nurturing energy for my child.

We must love and respect mamas, acknowledge mamas' rights to limits and self care, if we expect mamas to be able to do the same for babies and children.


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## ds2003 (Dec 30, 2004)

I think every woman (with few exception) should whole heartedly attempt breastfeeding. To many women give up in the first few days even before their milk comes in.

DS is 6 weeks. He had a great latch from the beginning. At about 3 weeks I suspected thrush. We have been battling it ever since. His latch has gotten bad and he sometimes will push away from my breast. I know thrush is painful for him so I don't take it personally.

For me, dealing with the thrush, bad latch and painful nipples as a result is worth it to give my child the best start possible.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Boof -


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## Boof (Dec 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama-a-llama*
Well, that's more eloquent than I was going to be. But I'll say it anyway.

Wow, just wow. Making fun of women who are hurting? Way to kick someone when they're down.Even if the judging is really in their own mind.

This is *exactly* what I was talking about!

I am not in charge of what someone else feels or thinks. 100 people will read the same post and feel 104 different ways about it based on their own experiences and psyche. Some will read what I wrote and feel bad. Some will read it and say "Yeah! That's right!" Should I not post something because of the possibility that someone might be so sensitive as to be offended? Why bother having a message board? I try to be polite in general, but sometimes you need a safe place to not be so guarded and polite. I will not walk on eggshells because I think someone might be offended when no offense was meant. I will, generally, be supportive and as helpful as possible. In my post, I found it helpful to be snarky in order to make my point, which I think you missed and I'm sure others will too.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Boof*

I am not in charge of what someone else feels or thinks.

Strictly speaking, this is true.

But it is also all too often used as a copout and an excuse to say hurtful things.

Judging, shaming, attacking, and browbeating are not okay things to do. You are in charge of your behaviour. If you know you are behaving in ways that are likely to result in somebody else feeling hurt, you are responsible to change those behaviours.

Or not. To each her own, I suppose.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Boof*
I am not in charge of what someone else feels or thinks.

I find this way of thinking to be hugely counterproductive. True, I am not all-powerful, nor can I be held responsible for others reactions to my words. However, if my words are consistantly found to be harsh, hateful, or judgemental (all of which I and apparently several others found yours to be) then I believe a person who is truly interested in being listened to and not just in shouting loudest in a crowd, will change her tact.

It's a cop-out. Of course you thought your words would have some sort of effect on others. That is why you chose those particular ones.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Wow, AM. Me and you must be smoking the same ganja or something today.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Wow, AM. Me and you must be smoking the same ganja or something today.









*snort* Not likely.


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## yaM yaM (Nov 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
I find this way of thinking to be hugely counterproductive. True, I am not all-powerful, nor can I be held responsible for others reactions to my words. However, if my words are consistantly found to be harsh, hateful, or judgemental (all of which I and apparently several others found yours to be) then I believe a person who is truly interested in being listened to and not just being interested in shouting loudest in a crowd, will change her tact.

It's a cop-out. Of course you thought your words would have some sort of effect on others. That is why you chose those particular ones.


TOTALLY, AM.

Boof, you may not be in charge of what others are thinking and feeling (it's certainly impossible!) but you're the ONLY one in charge of your own words and behavior.


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## weeirishlass (Mar 30, 2006)

I think everyone needs to remember that mother's make their choices with only the purest intentions. Most ff moms do not purposely choose to deprive their children of the benefits of bm, they simply do not know. So it is not our place to judge them for the decisions they made with pure intentions, but to educate them and prevent them from making the same mistake again.


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## mamacatsbaby (Jul 27, 2005)

I think most mamas would like to be able to BF and some cannot, for whatever reasons. This is heartbreaking









It seems to me that when a group is shunned by society that a backlash will eventually occur whether talking about racism, sexism, BF, FF, HB, etc. and so on and people get so caught up in the heat of it all that the individuality of each person becomes obscured.

IMHO since FF has been the norm for a while now and nursing mothers have been degraded, reprimanded, etc. the anger at this becomes overwhelming and mamas who FF or use a bottle (even with EBM!) for whatever reasons become so much a part of the target of that anger.

Then these mamas are like "Hell no! I'm not taking this BS!" and retaliation comes.

Remind you of anything?

I may be a first timer but it seems to me that this journey of mamahood can be a hard and lonely one as well as unbelievably amazing, love you couldn't possibly know till you've been there.

As mamas it would be so nice if we could connect with one another, support each other. We are all thinking, feeling, beautiful creatures who have so much to share.

We can't let the insanity of society pit us against each other. Our kiddos look to us to learn, not the least of which is empathy and compassion.

I will not shame another mama. Even if we are different we are the same. We need to help each other. If it takes a village can't this be seen as our virtual one?

Does this post seem like the pacifist part of me has overridden the anarchist part?







:














:









Amanda, much love honey.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Mamacatsbaby, what a beautiful post.


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## Mama Poot (Jun 12, 2006)

I've been avoiding this thread for a few days...but I think I've read enough posts to feel comfortable telling my own story. It isn't anything close to the difficulties that many mothers here have experienced and worked through, but it was hard for ME.

December 2005. DH received huge paycut at work, family relations, especially between me and my mother are very poor. DH and I feel there is "no way out" other than to pack up and move 2200 miles from Ohio to Phoenix, AZ where a "better job" awaits. I hate everyone at this point, so I don't care if I'm leaving them.

January 2006. We set out for Arizona. DS seems to be having some trouble, and I am horribly carsick and don't understand why. I never get carsick. We break the law all the way across the country and most of the time DS is on my lap, nursing away. I figure its the travelling making him more eager to nurse. I throw up and have diarrhea at every rest stop. I'm getting scared... DS cries and has trouble falling asleep at night....not like himself at all.

Arrival in Phoenix on interstate 10 at rush hour. Six lanes of traffic on both sides- I have NO big city driving experience. We head to Sky Harbor Airport to pick up my husband's car. I have to follow him back to an apartment I've never seen, in a place I don't know. We drive down Van Buren Blvd through nasty parts of town. We have to get on Interstate 10 and its roughly 6pm. The red lights to allow people onto the freeway are on, I've never encountered anything like them, and DH ends up way ahead of me. I get lost. Thankfully I was close to "home"....But didn't try to go home until I pulled into a hospital parking lot and had a panic attack thinking I would never see my baby again, and scared that he was starving and needed me.

The nights that follow get worse and worse. I continue nursing DS, but notice a major lack of bowel movements. We shrug it off as being constipated from the trip. But DS screams at night and won't sleep. After three frustrating nights, I take him to a doctor. DS is literally starving and getting dehydrated. Supplements must be started right away. I've been living in Phoenix for less than a week. Milk banks or asking mothers for donations does not occur to me because I know NO ONE. I don't even have a phone book for my area! How the hell would I find a milk bank??? I continue nursing him along with giving formula. I start pumping to try to boost my supply, and drink some different teas. I contact my old LLL leader from Ohio, who gives me some advice. Nothing works, and I can't pump a drop. This coming from someone who could easily pump 10oz at a time. Where is my milk???? I feel myself getting desperate and willing to do anything. I start researching Domperidone and find a pharmacy out of New Zealand who has it for a decent price. DH and I talk about it. I feel myself falling into a depression. I had no family, no friends, no one I could really talk to for support. I keep thinking "Where is my milk? Why is this happening to me? Maybe its just stress, the move, a phase,....." and all kinds of rationalizations. The most obvious thing of all never occured to me. Could I be pregnant? No way I'm not pregnant! I've been nursing exclusively until now! I thought you couldn't get pregnant.... my clothes don't fit so good anymore..... and an incident two months after I gave birth won't leave my mind....

I get seriously ill. I spend an entire night throwing up, shaking, chills, I can't keep down water. I go to an urgent care place the next morning, where I am diagnosed with a stomach virus that some were calling the West Valley virus because a lot of people in my area were getting it. A nurse asks for a urine sample and does a pregnancy test. Positive. Ok, so I just got pregnant right? Like a few weeks along or something. Because of my illness and low blood pressure, I'm sent to the hospital for an ultrasound. A few hours later I discover that I am *14 weeks* pregnant. All this time....how could I not have known?? I am profoundly depressed by my own stupidity and denial. I DID have my period 8 weeks post partum. It CAN happen, and it happened to ME. Instead of being excited, I feel horrible. I withdraw from my family and my son. No one told me to keep nursing through the pregnancy, or that I was almost out of the worst part. I had nowhere to turn, so I weaned my 6 month old son. I got a job in the evenings part time. As soon as DH got home from work, I would leave and not come home until 10-11pm. I didn't want to accept the disaster my life had become. I was 2200 miles from home, in the middle of the desert, which I hated and thought it was the ugliest place I'd ever seen. I hated myself for giving up, I hated Arizona, I hated everything. The hormonal complexities of pregnancy plus weaning leave me so depressed I start doing some pretty crazy, irrational things. I start having an emotional affair with a co-worker. DH knows about it- because I tell him about it.

**I am stopping here for a moment....this has me in tears....it wasn't all that long ago, and I am still healing...







: **

I end up having a one night stand with this co-worker. DH knows....I actually asked his permission to do it. Two weeks later DH finally wakes up and realized we were going to lose everything if we didn't get out of Phoenix. We call our family in Ohio frantic. We are broke, we are sick, we are sorry for leaving- PLEASE help us come home!!!!!! My mom sends her fiance out to help us pack and he will drive back with us. My aunt's house is vacant, and my grandfather offers to pay the first two months rent for us. We're actually going HOME. I just...... I'm not a good writer really, but when I think about DH loving me enough and caring enough to get his family out of that situation and being able to keep such a cool head through the entire thing ...









When we got home and settled in, I found a wonderful LC who I told my story to, and she taught me about nursing during pregnancy and about pumping for my son when his baby brother was born. It amazed me that God was giving this sick soul a second chance to provide what my son needed and deserved all along. Looking back, I wish I would have been able to seek help. But sometimes a person is too depressed and its easy to get swallowed up in self-pity. No, I was not the best mother I could have been during those months. But things have changed, I've educated myself, and I am ready and EAGER to pump milk for my beautiful baby boy.

If only... If only I would have just kept nursing him, and not made to feel like it was all-or-nothing, especially by that doctor, I don't believe I would have done the things I did. I didn't listen to my instincts. I WAS selfish. But I don't have to continue being selfish. Certainly by attempting to nurse my son again and pump milk for him until he can nurse, that's not being selfish!! I am reformed.

But to answer the OP's question....yes.... yes I will breastfeed at any cost. I know what its like when you DON'T....and that isn't a place I want to go back to. NOT breastfeeding nearly destroyed my family, at least in my mind. I am set to give birth any day now. There is NOTHING, _NOTHING_ that will bring down this breastfeeding relationship. You would have to kill me first.








If you've made it this far, thank you. It has been theraputic to get this story out in the open. I really feel like a huge weight has been lifted. Thanks also to the OP for starting this thread and giving all mamas the opportunity to tell their stories and voice their opinions.


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## mamabadger (Apr 21, 2006)

As usual, mothers get to carry guilt for things that are the fault of medicine, the workplace, or society in general.

Health care in general has treated breastfeeding like an afterthought. If your baby is vomiting, has a fever, or breaks out in a nasty rash, you can always find medical assistance. If your baby isn't nursing well, you may or may not get serious help, and will probably have to seek out assistance privately, like from LaLeche League. Why? Because breastfeeding isn't considered important enough. Medicine feels they already have a solution to serious breastfeeding problems: put the baby on a bottle!

When mothers experience truly serious nursing problems, LLL may not be able to help, and modern medicine hasn't made any effort to deal with these problems. Medical research is done on health issues that are considered important. No doctor or scientist is going to win awards for figuring out a way to prevent nipple cracking or guarantee a good latch. Mothers go through months of struggle and pain which would be considered worthy of a telethon, or at least a new colour lapel ribbon, if it were happening for any other reason, but because it's 'only' due to nursing problems, it's dismissed. After all, they can just switch to formula if they have to! It's like having a health care system that can transplant major organs but has no clue how to keep women from dying in childbirth or children from dying of tetanus. It's an obvious case of selective neglect.

Basically, what I'm saying is that:

Quote:

Do you really think that breastfeeding is SO important that it is worth enduring weeks and months of pain and frustration, exhaustion, and/or compromising one's mental health?
is the wrong question, in a way. Breastfeeding is SO important that medical science ought to be working day and night to overcome or prevent this "pain and frustration". If they're making no efforts in this direction, we should bloody well know why not.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Wow, great post, mamabadger!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger*
is the wrong question, in a way. Breastfeeding is SO important that medical science ought to be working day and night to overcome or prevent this "pain and frustration". If they're making no efforts in this direction, we should bloody well know why not.

ITA.


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## mama-a-llama (Feb 8, 2006)

mamabadger,









Quote:

When mothers experience truly serious nursing problems, LLL may not be able to help, and modern medicine hasn't made any effort to deal with these problems. *snip* Mothers go through months of struggle and pain which would be considered worthy of a telethon, or at least a new colour lapel ribbon, if it were happening for any other reason, but because it's 'only' due to nursing problems, it's dismissed. After all, they can just switch to formula if they have to!
Sadly so true. Shaming these mamas, or telling them how to feel ("Don't feel judged") doesn't help.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

AM and Mammabadger, you ladies rock.

You see the heart of the matter. My wording is a bit rough and rude, and *cough* hormone laden...but man, you ladies hit the nail on the head.

TRUE Lactivism is changing SOCIETY's view on breastfeeding. Allowing for longer maternity leaves, making sure there's a nice comfy pumping station in EVERY work place, with ADEQUATE pumping breaks. Getting the medical pros to step up and say "Hey this is the biological NORM for our speicies, formula is for dire emergenceis" Getting more support for new mommas in GENERAL to get the nursing relationship going. Getting family and friends in to help with the housework and cooking and older children so Momma can have a time to chill out and learn her babe's cues and whatnot.

The whole lack of breastfeeding and the fact it's so easily given up, is a SOCIETY thing, not a pure "It's YOUR fault you didn't try hard enough" thing.

It's not one individual momma's fault, it's like a stack of dominoes. The bottle in the hospital, the latch issues, the maestitis, the thrush, it all goes downhill...then boom "screw this"

It's systemetic. Change the system, plain and simple. The average momma a: doesn't know enough or b: doesn't care enough to do so. It's up to the lactivists to do it. But if we get too militant, we aren't taken seriously...


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## Boof (Dec 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Strictly speaking, this is true.

But it is also all too often used as a copout and an excuse to say hurtful things.

As so is someone saying they tried to breastfeed but "couldn't" do it. Just because something is being abused by some doesn't mean it's being abused by all.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Judging, shaming, attacking, and browbeating are not okay things to do.

I don't think anyone said they were. I know I merely said judging is done, even if the person doesn't say anything. My whole point was that it doesn't matter if someone judges you. It matters how you judge yourself.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
You are in charge of your behaviour. If you know you are behaving in ways that are likely to result in somebody else feeling hurt, you are responsible to change those behaviours..

I am in charge of my behavior, but you are in charge of how you react. If someone is so sensitive, if their self-esteem is so fragile as to react badly when no slight was personally intended, they are responsible for getting the help they need.

It's not right to ask everyone to censor posts and walk on the proverbial eggshells because someone, somewhere might take offense. No one would ever post.

I apologize for repeating myself. Some people will refuse to see my point. Some won't get it because mercury is in retrograde for another week


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## JustJamie (Apr 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Boof*
This is *exactly* what I was talking about!

I am not in charge of what someone else feels or thinks. 100 people will read the same post and feel 104 different ways about it based on their own experiences and psyche. Some will read what I wrote and feel bad. Some will read it and say "Yeah! That's right!" Should I not post something because of the possibility that someone might be so sensitive as to be offended? Why bother having a message board? I try to be polite in general, but sometimes you need a safe place to not be so guarded and polite. I will not walk on eggshells because I think someone might be offended when no offense was meant. I will, generally, be supportive and as helpful as possible. In my post, I found it helpful to be snarky in order to make my point, which I think you missed and I'm sure others will too.

How childish are you? I mean, really...is empathy such a foreign concept to you? Are you so caught up in your own point of view that you are actually incapable of understanding how others might feel?

I thought part of being an adult was understanding how our words and actions effect and impact others, and taking care to mitigate the negative side...you know, courtesy, respect, that sort of thing. Or, were you sick that day in kindergarten? Perhaps you were homeschooled and just didn't pay attention when your parents taught you "treat others as you'd like to be treated" or "if you don't have anything nice to say, say nothing at all".

Of course, I'm not responsible for how you choose to react to my post. Your emotions are your problem, not mine.


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Boof*
..
I am in charge of my behavior, but you are in charge of how you react. If someone is so sensitive, if their self-esteem is so fragile as to react badly when no slight was personally intended, they are responsible for getting the help they need.

Do you not understand how you're coming across? I guess all those mamas with PPD should'a just taken more vitamins, eh? Or stopped being so pathetically "fragile" for a change.
It doesn't matter whether slight was intended or not. Your posts are inflammatory, and when this is pointed out, YOU DON'T CARE. A polite person would've apologized for the misunderstanding, and clarified that they didn't mean to be such a ____ by now.


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## Boof (Dec 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
It's systemetic. Change the system, plain and simple.











Yes! This is what is being missed in the whole argument!


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama-a-llama*
Shaming these mamas, or telling them how to feel ("Don't feel judged") doesn't help.


I'm not speaking to the shaming part, but I have actually had amazing responses by simply reminding women that it's OK to feel bad or guilty or sad about things, that we don't have to be happyjoyjoy all the time, and that having negative emotions doesn't make you BAD, and you don't have to feel ashamed for having had dark thoughts.

So many women who were in my situation have buried their feelings SO deep, b/c supposedly well-meaning "friends" have told them you're not allowed to feel sad if your baby is otherwise healthy. I think that's nonsense, and when I TELL people that, I find that people respond to it positively.

Is it telling them how to feel? Yes, it's telling them to not feel bad for feeling their feelings. Does it help? YES.

I feel there are so many posts that are TAKEN as judgmental but really aren't, they are just people telling their stories or laying out options (we don't all notice who we are talking to with every post, we don't always read signatures while posting, we don't know everyone's entire story, and for all we know, we might be the first to mention something to that person). In that case, that sort of post really shouldn't be taken as judging, and it shouldn't be put at the feet of the poster. Sure, sometimes there are posts that truly are judgy, but I've found those to be few and far between...

************
"I think everyone needs to remember that mother's make their choices with only the purest intentions"

Boy, I don't think that's true. I think it's true here. But not "out there".

I had the tale of three friends here, but I felt it would bog things down and people would lose focus of what I was saying and why I was saying it. It was showing that in my circle, pure intentions have nothing to do with how to feed kids.....

...maybe we just know different people or something, b/c in my own universe, decisions with the child's true health in mind are few and far between....


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## Boof (Dec 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
I find this way of thinking to be hugely counterproductive. True, I am not all-powerful, nor can I be held responsible for others reactions to my words. However, if my words are consistantly found to be harsh, hateful, or judgemental (all of which I and apparently several others found yours to be) then I believe a person who is truly interested in being listened to and not just in shouting loudest in a crowd, will change her tact.

It's a cop-out. Of course you thought your words would have some sort of effect on others. That is why you chose those particular ones.

There is rarely any consistency in how people react. That's part of the point. I chose to start my post that way to make a point in a different way, not to offend. There are those who weren't offended. There are those who were. I didn't set out to offend. We cannot discern tone of voice out here so it's left to the individual's interpretation. You see the crab in the inkblot, I see the butterfly.

I don't come out here saying things like "OMG can you bee-leeeeve I saw some horrible mother stuffing a bottle down their baby's mouth! I bet it's not even organic formula! And in a stroller! Can you believe they don't babywear???? I bet they don't even co-sleep!!!!!!!111oneoneone"

If I had posted that seriously, yes that is offensive. The above sentence is an extreme example as in my origional post- snark to make a point.


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

I want to say something, perhaps clear something up?

A few pages ago someone said that if a woman could not look herself in the face if she used formula, that she would continue nursing.

I have seen this somehow change into "women who use formula shouldn't be able to look themselves in the face". I have seen that strange mis-reading be stated twice as fact (once in italics), and it's just *NOT* what she said.

*Mama Poot*, just wanted to give you a







.


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## Boof (Dec 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82*
Do you not understand how you're coming across? I guess all those mamas with PPD should'a just taken more vitamins, eh? Or stopped being so pathetically "fragile" for a change.

Wow, you're really reading a whole lot into what I said. None of that is in there.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82*
It doesn't matter whether slight was intended or not. Your posts are inflammatory, and when this is pointed out, YOU DON'T CARE. A polite person would've apologized for the misunderstanding, and clarified that they didn't mean to be such a ____ by now.

I do care, that's why I've posted several times trying to clarify my point. I won't apologize for stating my point of view just because someone else disagrees with it. If we all did that, the board would be filled with nothing but apology threads. Now I'm being personally attacked for it when nothing I said was directed at anyone personally.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Boof*
There is rarely any consistency in how people react. That's part of the point. I chose to start my post that way to make a point in a different way, not to offend. There are those who weren't offended. There are those who were. I didn't set out to offend. We cannot discern tone of voice out here so it's left to the individual's interpretation. You see the crab in the inkblot, I see the butterfly.

OK, I'll bite, because I am always up for the possibility that I am misreading something. You posted "Wah! Wah! Wah! I'm being judged." Then when someone said how that made them feel, you said, "I'm not responsible for how you feel."

I don't possibly understand how the first was meant to be anything but mocking and the second was meant to be anything but dismissive. But please, do explain, if you can.


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GalateaDunkel*
People who have trouble accomplishing certain tasks should be unable to so much as look at themselves in a mirror without cringing until the day they die, but I can write lengthy, self-involved posts about what a moral heroine I am for acknowledging my own problems in the very same area.


Since my lengthy post about myself was almost right before this, I can't help but wonder if I'm being mentioned here.









And I did want to say, that quite a lot of my post was about a CHILD, you know, since part of what we should be talking about are the children whose health may or may not be impacted by someone's decision to _feed a baby/child breastmilk_ (or to continue trying until and unless it's realized it absolutely is not going to happen)? It was partially a child's story, about the child's health and how health was impacted.

Of course the kid was me, so that means it's self-involved...if only I had developed a way of lying online, I could have SO many "friends" and "kids of friends" to write about.







It would be a partial lie. But at least I wouldn't appear self-involved!









I don't see anywhere NEAR the consensus you do, by the way. In fact I feel that my views are definitely in the minority around here! I don't know who is right! Man, those perceptions are wild!







:

had to edit myself to change my one word to what's in italics...pumping is ridiculously hard, and I don't want to accidentally slight anyone by using my shorthand...


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollyeilis*
I want to say something, perhaps clear something up?

A few pages ago someone said that if a woman could not look herself in the face if she used formula, that she would continue nursing.

I have seen this somehow change into "women who use formula shouldn't be able to look themselves in the face". I have seen that strange mis-reading be stated twice as fact (once in italics), and it's just *NOT* what she said.


THANK YOU!!!! I said that, and it was misconstrued several times. I USED formula, dammit! And I feel awful about it, but I kept breastfeeding through the supplementation BECAUSE I felt awful about it and my child got every speck of breastmilk possible and didn't starve to death in the meantime. That, imho, is APPROPRIATE use of formula. And yes, I still feel bad about using it and constantly second-guess myself as to how much of it was necessary, but I have no doubt that the majority of it was necessary. So I have some guilt and a lot of sadness and you know what? It's not the end of the world. As mollyeilis said, negative emotions are not necessarily bad.

The problem with the whole situation is that it's hard to get the right message out to people. I hate to say it, but people (including mothers, they are not all the saints and martyrs that we here are







) frequently look for the easy way out. If the message is that breastmilk is best but if you can't breastfeed then formula is ok, a lot of moms WILL CHOOSE FORMULA!!! This is reality. The message should be, you should give breastfeed exclusively unless there is a real, real medical reason not to (and I agree that severe PPD and bonding problems would consitute a medical reason), and then you should give breastmilk as much as you possibly can however you can do it, and give formula as a last resort because while formula will keep your child alive and growing, it will not do much more than that.

Of course, we also need far more educated medical professionals to first of all spread this message and second of all - and equally importantly - know enough to help women who are having difficulties. And most importantly, get the whole world using a 1-yr mat leave policy!!!! I think it is INSANE that the USA thinks that they can get more women to breastfeed using a silly ad campaign while still having only, what is it, 6 weeks mandatory mat leave?!?!? That is so not helping. I almost wish I lived in the States so I could stage ferocious nurse-ins at government offices to get that changed.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollyeilis*
*Mama Poot*, just wanted to give you a







.

Me too!


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## Boof (Dec 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
OK, I'll bite, because I am always up for the possibility that I am misreading something. You posted "Wah! Wah! Wah! I'm being judged." Then when someone said how that made them feel, you said, "I'm not responsible for how you feel."

I don't possibly understand how the first was meant to be anything but mocking and the second was meant to be anything but dismissive. But please, do explain, if you can.

There have been many misunderstandings in this thread and plenty taken out of context.

I opened with some absurd snark to highlight the statement which followed, not as a statement in and of itself. Mostly, it's been taken out of context, quoted on its own as if the line had been meant as something other than it was- serious.

I've posted several replies, so I don't know the context of "I'm not responsible for how you feel" or if it's even a direct quote. Perhaps I should have said "react" instead of "feel"? Is that a better way to put it? I'm not sure it would make a difference. Someone would have been offended by what they read into the word choice.

As with the origional point of the whole thread, each person is different and you don't know the circumstances under which they come to their conclusions.

Person A: "I went through X experiences and so I see it this way and am offended"
Person B: "I went thoguht Y circumstances and agree wholeheartedly"

Eleanor Roosevelt said it best: "Do what you feel in your heart to be right- for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't."


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spughy*
This is why I think society needs to demonize formula a LOT more and make using it a shameful thing. (Within reason - it has medical applications that should not be ignored. But it should be treated as a drug, not a food.)

Yes, let's make using formula more shameful--that will be very helpful to the mamas who try their hardest, but have low suppy/PPD/breast surgery issues/etc. and are already heart-broken about not being able to bf. And we might as well stone anyone who dares to give her child a cookie or a piece of cake--after all, we all know that those things are NOT nutritionally optimal. Oh, and we should hop on the Tom Cruise bandwagon, and be sure to demonize anyone who takes meds for PPD instead of just taking vitamins.

Of course, we could spend all that energy on bf education. We could work to see that hospitals hire qualified LCs. We could continue to hold nurse-ins and lobby for more protective bfing legislation. We could try to get free formula samples out of ped's offices and hospitals. We could work to change the way formula is marketed. We could start letter-writing campaigns to medical and nursing schools in support of better bfing legislation.

Nah, let's stick to shaming people. That's so much more fun.

I do see your point spughy--I think it's a big problem that most people think choosing between formula and bm is just a simple choice, like choosing what color wall paper to get or which brand of diapers to use--but I don't think creating a culture of shame around it will solve the problem. We already have a culture shame around nutritional/obesity issues, and that isn't convincing most Americans to eat any better.

Shame doesn't motivate people; it shames them. When I was at my lowest point with bfing, about a week ago, I emailed some people in my due date club to tell them I was seriously considering giving up. I was deeply depressed. I was not being a good mother to my dd. I was in agony. I had actually gone out and purchased some formula. You know what got me through that and gave me the strength to keep going? It wasn't people saying, "Oh, you're doing great, just keep on going!" or "Well, have you tried X" or "I got through problems just like that, so you can, too." It was people telling me that I wouldn't be the world's worst mother if I gave my dd a bottle of formula. Acknowledging that there is more to motherhood than just putting a baby on the breast, and that my pain was valid and needed tending to. Getting "permission" to use formula and not feel shameful about it--from MDC mamas, no less!--was far more helpful to me than yet another round of cheerleading. It gave me the strength to go on, b/c it reminded me that I did have options other than pain and suffering if I needed them.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

ITA with your whole post, NYCVeg.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Boof*
There have been many misunderstandings in this thread and plenty taken out of context.

I opened with some absurd snark to highlight the statement which followed, not as a statement in and of itself. Mostly, it's been taken out of context, quoted on its own as if the line had been meant as something other than it was- serious.

I've posted several replies, so I don't know the context of "I'm not responsible for how you feel" or if it's even a direct quote. Perhaps I should have said "react" instead of "feel"? Is that a better way to put it? I'm not sure it would make a difference. Someone would have been offended by what they read into the word choice.

As with the origional point of the whole thread, each person is different and you don't know the circumstances under which they come to their conclusions.

Person A: "I went through X experiences and so I see it this way and am offended"
Person B: "I went thoguht Y circumstances and agree wholeheartedly"

Eleanor Roosevelt said it best: "Do what you feel in your heart to be right- for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't."

I can see more of what you're saying here, although I still think that, as advocates, the onus is on us to watch our words. I suppose judgement is OK if your only purpose is to sit around the mall complaining about people and feeling good about your own choices, but the second we claim to want to effect change, we need to be sure that our words don't get in the way of the messege. IMO.


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## Clarinet (Nov 3, 2005)

I think I'm missing something.

The point of lactivism is making sure women get the adequate information they need in order to establish and continue a healthy breastfeeding relationship. Some mothers have low supply and that's unfortunate but it is what formula was intended for in the first place. I think what's getting completely misconstrued is the fact that negativity isn't pointed towards women who do fight for breastfeeding and for some reason or other it truly wasn't meant to be but rather mothers who make excuses for their selfish reasons why they don't breastfeed or didn't continue for as long as necessary for their child.

We're hearing very heartbreaking stories about the reasons for the use of formula and I do think women should be supportive of each other and the hardships we all have faced at one point or another. I won't agree with or probably even want to support someone who says, "it hurt for four days so I quit." Or "the baby got teeth so that was it for me." Or "I didn't make enough so I supplement with formula and the engorgement is painful (do low supply mamas actually GET engorged at any point?)." Or "I want to drink alcohol, smoke cigarettes, leave the four month old overnight at my mother's, go on a week long vacation with just my partner." This is what's ridiculous and should have the focus of lactivism.

To answer the original question, YES. It was worth it TO ME. I have a 12-month old who still nurses frequently at night and I thought I would lose my mind a couple months ago but we're still doing it. When you have a baby, that precious, completely dependent being should be the focus. As far as mental health goes, there's several medications that are fine to use with breastfeeding. As far as physical health goes, I think a good support system would be beneficial. But breastfeeding is a child's right.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

We already have a culture shame around nutritional/obesity issues, and that isn't convincing most Americans to eat any better.
What a fascinating point, and worth highlighting.


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## Pen (Jul 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Dudes. I have seen many posts around here shaming and judging mamas for not breastfeeding, even when they state clearly that they are NOT able to breastfeed. Either there were just too many challenges and barriers at the start and the babes didn't latch, or mama is about to go over the edge emotionally.

Do you really think that breastfeeding is SO important that it is worth enduring weeks and months of pain and frustration, exhaustion, and/or compromising one's mental health?

Coz you know what, I don't. I really, really don't.

Now don't get me wrong, my 2.5 yr old is still nursing on demand, and I really value our breastfeeding relationship. It brings tears to my eyes imagining her weaning, or imagining not having been able to bf her at all.

But we had a super easy start, I didn't get cracked nipples, she latched easily, I had enough milk, she was a singleton, I didn't struggle much with depression. Easy peasy. Not everyone's situation is like that.

I mean, here in MDC-land everything is so straightforward: Breastfeed or die trying.

But IRL, many of my friends have tried hard to bf and been unsuccessful. One friend, they took the baby early due to her high bloodpressure, he wouldn't latch, she was up around the clock, waaaaay less sleep than even most mamas of newborns get, nursing, tube feeding him, pumping, recording. She saw lactation consultants and made an appt with Dr. Jack Newman. Her milk dried up, and that was that.

Another friend, her son was early too, and her nipples became so badly injured that every feed was excruciating. She kept going, and nursed him for six weeks!!! Yay!!! But then that was enough.

Wouldn't it suck for those women to come on this site and be told that they failed their babies?

Everybody behind the keyboard here is a person.

I have not yet read all posts but will.
Responding to first post:

"Dudes."
First of all I'm not a dude. I am a mother, a woman, a lady (okay - perhaps not a lady) but I am not a dude.

"Do you really think that breastfeeding is SO important that it is worth enduring weeks and months of pain and frustration, exhaustion, and/or compromising one's mental health?"

Yes.

"&#8230;.Breastfeed or die trying"

Because some children do die. Or they live in pain, with lifelong allergies, or with sickness because we didn't put in a measly 3 or four years of pain and frustration, exhaustion and mental anguish.

YES.YES.YES. Try like your child's life depended on it because it does.

Does that mean that the mother is alone in her responsibility. No. We also have the responsibility because we know. As Breastfeeding Week approaches, I have been calling and asking to send information to people who are NOT MOTHERS.

We learn by what we see and hear. If we see and hear that it's not that important, then we learn that breastfeeding is not that important. It is that important. Will all babies fed by the bottle or by formula die horrible deaths or live in agony or suffer an ear ache? No. And those who are EBF may die. But why would you purposely have a child and not give it every consideration.

There are valid reasons for formula. Like there are no other mothers around who would nurse your baby. Don't know where that might be, though.







:

"Everybody behind the keyboard here is a person."

And every child has a mother who cares enough to want to give them the very best. Some just don't do it - for whatever reason. If you aren't going to give your child the nutrition and nurturing they need, then you better have a damn good reason because you, your child, and your children's children have to live with it.

This is not about trying to make someone feel guilty (that, by the way, is a feeling that oneself produces to tell oneself that something needs consideration and possibly change). With all my magical powers cannot make someone feel guilty.

This is about saying that Breastfeeding does matter and your child is depending on you.

"Wouldn't it suck for those women to come on this site and be told that they failed their babies?"

Haven't we all in some way. Why does it bother some people that they are told that they are less than perfect? Why do we have to always pat each other on the back? I have no 'friends' here but some of you do. Is that what you want from friends to always pat you on the back.

I have known people IRL who have 'tried to breastfeed" but couldn't because of every reason in the book. (Not a single one of them would go to LLL or to a LC.) I know there are difficulties and we have to try to change the system. But if we are in the process of changing a system on one hand and then telling mothers on the other hand that it doesn't really matter, what are we accomplishing? URGH, so frustrating. This is not the place I would want to go if I were on the fence.


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nausicaamom*
I feel that when it comes down to a choice between adequate nutrition (formula) and adequate parenting (burned-out, un-bonded mom), I'm going to have to go with formula. Yes, the health benefits of breastmilk are huge and can have a life-long impact but I feel that the benefits of having a strong mom-baby attachment far outweigh them.

I understand the sentiment here...I just wanted to reiterate that "formula" is not adequate nutrition...it has been shown to markedly increase infant death rates, it doesn't allow for proper brain and eye development and probably causes a lot of health problems as the person ages.
I met a lot of preemie moms in my NICU and was astounded that over 90% of them had switched to formula after anywhere from a few days to a few weeks...some never even tried to pump. Disappointed with low supply or dealing with PPD, most of the moms there just threw in the towel. Nurses there regarded the pumping as just a whim that would pass. When I told them that I wanted to breastfeed, I just got "knowing" smiles that seemed to suggest I would fail...it being hard enough to BF or EP for just one preemie, twins are impossible right?
Well, the point I would like to make is that we need to educate all mothers who care....low supply sucks, I know...but that amount of milk you get, however small it be can do a lot of good for the baby and should never be the reason to just give up. For example -- soooo much better for baby to get 10% breastmilk and 90% formula than 100% formula. Also, with things like milkshare and LLL and even sites like this -- even the poorest moms with supply/latch issues CAN connect with caring mothers who have extra milk. I could *never* afford banked milk, we live pretty much check to check these days since I am not working(proper childcare for 2 babies??? read: unaffordable!), but I have met two wonderful ladies who have donated milk to us. I saved and sold stuff on ebay to have the money to reemburse them for the bags they use. I make it a point to be very vocal about the donations we have received -- I want people to know they have options even if they really are totally incapable of making milk -- you can still usually find a way to add some breastmilk into the baby's diet. Even one little bottle per day is so much better than none at all. So, while I really don't want to make a mother feel bad...it just really saddens and upsets me to hear of babies who get nothing but formula.
Oh well, I guess I rambled.









ETA: for anyone curious about my story, my boys are now 9.5 months -- one was exclusively nursing from 5 months onwards(though eats some solids now) and the other has been more challenging. I am able to express only 1-2 oz per day for him of my milk as he will not latch for going on two weeks now though I am still hopeful he may start up again when he sees his brother doing it all the time. For the rest of his food we use the WAP whole foods formula plus all the wonderful donated breastmilk that we can get.


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## Starr (Mar 16, 2005)

My DD, 9 months is on formula.

So in your opinion does this make me a horrible mother?


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Starr*
My DD, 9 months is on formula.

So in your opinion does this make me a horrible mother?

Not at all. I would just seek out donor milk in my area so I could add a little bit of the good stuff to her daily intake. For moms who are worried, you could always pasteurize the milk. Although pasteurization does damage the milk and kill off a lot of beneficial enzymes, it still contains the proper nutritional building blocks. I realize this wouldn't be an option for foster mothers however.


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## Pen (Jul 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Starr*
My DD, 9 months is on formula.

So in your opinion does this make me a horrible mother?

Why are you asking our opinion? Is there an answer you are expecting?
What is your opinion? Do you think you are a horrible mother?
How do you define horrible? Are there circumstances that you can identify that lead you to chose formula? What would you do differently next time? What would you do the same? What advice would you give other moms?

And

I would nurse your baby for you.


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## Dido (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pen*
Because some children do die. Or they live in pain, with lifelong allergies, or with sickness because we didn't put in a measly 3 or four years of pain and frustration, exhaustion and mental anguish.

Your post seems a little unhinged, Pen. I BF my DD and plan to continue for a long time. But if it was costing me "3 or 4 years of pain and frustration, exhaustion and mental anguish," you bet I'd switch to formula. How good a mother could I possibly be under those circumstances?


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## Mama Poot (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sjkmaurice*

When you have a baby, that precious, completely dependent being should be the focus. But breastfeeding is a child's right.









:

I will be the first to testify the ramifications of not having your baby be the entire focus of your life. These first years are so important, and our society does a really good job at downplaying the importance of this time. My local PBS station has been running advertisements for some kind of childcare program or something about supporting daycare workers. In the commercial, they say something like "The first three years are crucial to a child's development." Going on and on, while showing pictures of babies in playpens and trying to make daycare look like the perfect place for your child to "develop". I know some people have no other choice but to utilize daycare facilities- but YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING ME! I hate that commercial....Anyways, I think things would be much easier if we didn't all live in such a materialistic, "me"- centered society. Every other page in most mainstream "parenting" or "baby" themed magazines features designer clothes and makeup for the moms. Nice? Sure that's nice. Practical and affordable? Not for most of us- and it brings women down. I'll even go so far to say I dont think those things should be advertised in these mags, and I also do not like the constant barrage of "How to get more "you" time" and similar articles. Maybe if they talked more about how to integrate your children into your life, people would give more thought to things like breastfeeding, and less thought into "how can I get out of doing XYZ for my kid today so I can go do what I want to..."

Bah rambling.....

Thanks for the hugs, BTW


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Coming in late here. I EP'd for my first baby for 5.5 mos. She simply would not nurse. I got lots of help in the early days, had support. She didn't nurse. She took bottles. During that time I had frequent mastitis, way too much milk (in spite of efforts to tame my supply), plugged ducts, and finally thrush. I quit because I could no longer take the pain. I was unable to hold her close to my chest because it hurt so much. I was sleep deprived. I pumped every 3 hours for 15 mins around the clock and fed her on demand. Later I pumped less often but with my oversupply problems if I waited too long I got mastitis. I was stressed out and irritable and was not enjoying my time with her. I am proud of the fact that I saved a huge stash for her and she was able to get at least some breastmilk a day for months after.

When dd2 came I had the same milk/breast issues, decided to pump again. By the fourth or fifth mastitis infection I had had it. Esp when thrush showed up. She had severe reflux and was screaming all the time, dd1 was a high needs toddler with her own special needs, and then baby stopped eating at all and was losing weight. I had PPD and very scant emotional support from dh (he was hiding at work). So I quit pumping. Whether or not it was the best choice in the long-run, I can say that at the time I felt that something must give. She got my milk for 75 weeks and then occasionally I gave her some out of the stash to see if she could tolerate it yet.

My baby ended up in the hospital for 6 days with a feeding tube down her nose. She still has a feeding tube at 29 mos old with weak appetite and some other problems. On one hand I regret quitting the pumping and considered relactating if I thought she could digest it better than the hypo formula they put her on (she vomited badly, but worse when I gave her some from my stock of milk and certain standard formulas). She had many, many ear infections and other GI problems. Maybe she would have benefitted from breastmilk if I had been able figure out what was bothering her. But relactaction and pumping just seemed too big to undertake at the time. I could hardly cope from day to day as it was (too busy keeping up with vomit clean up and spending about 6 hours a day feeding my child until she got a feeding pump).

I totally agree that in theory a child has the right to breastmilk. I also believe that a child has a right to a mother who can take care of and nurture him or her. If you have to choose between one or the other, choose the latter.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

There are valid reasons for formula. Like there are no other mothers around who would nurse your baby. Don't know where that might be, though
Oh, for heaven's sake. How many women do you know who are going to come to your house and nurse your baby for you? Round the clock? 24 hours? Or are we to have an army of wetnurses at our beck and call?

For the record, as someone who EP'ed due to physical issues and had to supplement, I hinted more than once that I would accept donor milk for DD from a couple of local nursing friends. No one offered; I didn't really expect them to. It's a lot to ask of someone.

I knew about milk banks, but there was no way I could afford it. I knew some people donated milk, but was not aware of any centralized system; anyway, my baby was in very good health and physically *could* nurse, and I didn't see how I would/should be a priority.

In addition, when you take "nonvetted" donor milk you do run a medical risk.

Quote:

Are there circumstances that you can identify that lead you to chose formula?
If you'd read the poster's sig, you'd have noticed that her daughter is adopted.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

Thismama asked: "Do you really think that breastfeeding is SO important that it is worth enduring weeks and months of pain and frustration, exhaustion, and/or compromising one's mental health?"

I'm putting my vote with those who say, hell NO.

And with those who say that until you have been in the shoes, the home, and the nursing bra of a woman in a bad breastfeeding situation, you should confine your lactivism to making our society a better place to breastfeed in. Oh, wait, that's the way lactivism should be, anyway.

For the first four months of my ds1's life, the only emotion I felt for him was an all-consuming, sickening anxiety. I was pumping like a fiend, nursing day and night, and he wouldn't gain weight anyway. Had an excellent LC, plenty of support in place and still - no weight gain.

Do you actually know what it is like NOT to experience the overwhelming love for your child that Dr. Sears (damn him) assures us will flood our maternal souls?

Do you know what it is like to wonder, day after day, why you can't love your own baby? To be full of rage that for other mothers, this is a time, yes of sleeplessness and dirty hair, but also of tender moments and delight in a new life? To constantly wonder what is wrong with you, your body, and your baby?

(I know some of you do).

After 4 months I quit. Oh, I still nursed him. I nursed him till he was 2 and a half, but he was sustained by formula. It was the best decision I ever made. Without that crippling anxiety, finally, I could start enjoying my baby. Finally I could love him.

I knew when I was pregnant the second time that there was no way I'd put myself through that again. Sure, I was really determined to make breastfeeding work the second time. But I wasn't willing to put myself or my family through that again. Fortunately for me, everything worked out the second time.

The legacy of this experience is that I have a lot more compassion for mothers who use formula than I ever thought I would. A lot more understanding that things just aren't as black and white as some folks make them out to be.

And by the way, I have no objection to being addressed as "Dude." Especially by Thismama.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

eta: Aw, forget it, it was pissy, & didn't come out right







.


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

Starr, it feels like you're asking a trick question. For those who don't notice or don't understand your signature, it's like you're begging someone to answer with "have you tried xyz", which I know bothers you (you're now one of the few people whose circumstances I know by heart, LOL). Why are you asking such a thing?

But really, no one is saying here that people, especially here, are horrible parents for using formula. Even saying that formula is not the greatest, that formula companies and their marketing practices are rotten, those things NOT the same as saying those who choose it are automatically horrible parents. Why does one continue to equal the other, in the minds of some?


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
Oh, for heaven's sake. How many women do you know who are going to come to your house and nurse your baby for you? Round the clock? 24 hours? Or are we to have an army of wetnurses at our beck and call?

For the record, as someone who EP'ed due to physical issues and had to supplement, I hinted more than once that I would accept donor milk for DD from a couple of local nursing friends. No one offered; I didn't really expect them to. It's a lot to ask of someone.

I knew about milk banks, but there was no way I could afford it. I knew some people donated milk, but was not aware of any centralized system; anyway, my baby was in very good health and physically *could* nurse, and I didn't see how I would/should be a priority.

In addition, when you take "nonvetted" donor milk you do run a medical risk.

If you'd read the poster's sig, you'd have noticed that her daughter is adopted.


I'm sorry no one offered to your hints. If I lived where you do, I would have gladly helped you.

I even started pumping for my friend when she was expecting triplets and ASKED in advance for help. Then once the babies arrived, I never heard from her, even when I emailed her mom (my mom's friend), figuring she hadn't gotten my emails b/c, you know, she'd had triplets. I was willing to move to her city if needed (rather than just take frozen milk however often), to uproot DS and myself...but I never heard back.









What was especially sad to me is that my mom and her family- her mom and her aunts- had all swapped kids around for b'feeding, so we were all "related" by b'milk in a way. It would have been so natural to help her like that...

Anyway, I'm sorry there was no one out there for you like that.

But I've always been very impressed by all you did to give your girl b'milk, and if I've ever said that if I needed to I would have pumped for DS, b/c of you it wasn't out of lack of knowledge that it would be hard.


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

When my supply was low a friend offered to pump for me. She was at the end of her nursing "career" with her DS - he was only nursing a few times a day, but unfortunately just after she started pumping she got quite sick and barely had enough milk for her son, then a few weeks later I was producing enough on my own.

Now, I am producing a small excess due to daily pumping as mastitis prevention (DD rarely cleans out the low-supply boob) and I am giving that excess to a friend who is still having supply problems. It feels good.

That having been said, I think milk donation is still pretty rare. And a pp was right - wetnurses don't really exist anymore and I don't know anyone who would leave their own child and nurse yours through the night. Most low-supply mamas DO have to use formula. And that is what it is for! Like vitamins, KWIM? It's irresponsible to just eat crap all the time and then take a vitamin pill and think your body's getting all it needs. Vitamins can cover little gaps in your diet, they're not meant to fill ALL your nutritional needs.


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## Nisupulla (Jun 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nausicaamom*
I feel that when it comes down to a choice between adequate nutrition (formula) and adequate parenting (burned-out, un-bonded mom), I'm going to have to go with formula. Yes, the health benefits of breastmilk are huge and can have a life-long impact but I feel that the benefits of having a strong mom-baby attachment far outweigh them.

I started to agree with you. When it comes to nutrition vs mom-baby attachment, I think I'd go with the attachment. But, breastfeeding provides both nutrition and attachment.

I guess this argument that the choice is between breastfed baby/sad mommy and formula baby/happy mommy just really bugs me, so please cut me some slack. I understand that BFing and pumping can be completely overwhelming and exhausting, I also understand that circumstances like bad latch, mastitis, thrush etc and just become too much, so in that case, an overwhelmed mom might opt for formula.

But, lots of women are going to feel overwhelmed in the early days no matter how they feed the baby, oftentimes related to PPD. For those mothers formula is not going to be a cure-all. The sad, overwhelmed, guilty feelings will not go away with the breastfeeding, in fact, they are more likely to get worse. My 0.02.


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## Pen (Jul 23, 2005)

How many mothers have died because they breastfed?
How many children died because they weren't breastfed?

Why wouldn't you try your damndest?
And if you did try your damndest, you won't feel guilty.

I recognize the problems people have.
I've had a few of the hardest myself.
The problem is not breast milk and the solution is not formula
so, don't offer it as a solution.
The problem is how we are expected to be as mothers, how soon we are to be outta bed after delivery, how well the baby sleeps through the night, how soon after the baby is born that we are out on the town, inadequate foods, what we wear!, how soon we are back at work, the list goes on.

These are the things that impeded breastfeeding and make it difficult for moms to do it.
The solution involves education and knocking the bottle out of the doctor's hand.
The solution is NOT to say that it's okay to bottle fed. I don't even think it should be mentioned.

Don't speak out of both sides of your mouth. The more excuses we offer each other the harder it will be for people who can breastfeed to realize that they can breastfeed.

This is a matter of life for the child.
And this is the breastfeeding forum. Where people breastfeed.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pen*
Why wouldn't you try your damndest?
And if you did try your damndest, you won't feel guilty.

This deserves to be repeated.

-Angela


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## Nisupulla (Jun 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spughy*
And I think that is the key differentiator right there: a woman WILL give up on bf'ing if the pain and anguish she is experiencing are worse than how she will feel for the rest of her life if she uses formula. If she can't face herself after she feeds her baby formula (exclusively, I mean - any bm is better than none at all) then she will keep breastfeeding no matter what. This is why I think society needs to demonize formula a LOT more and make using it a shameful thing. (Within reason - it has medical applications that should not be ignored. But it should be treated as a drug, not a food.)

If I'm reading this correctly, I agree with you.

a) Each mom needs to decide for herself that point at which the pain and anguish experienced while struggling to BF overrides the risks of formula and any accompaning disappointment.









b) Formula manufacturers should be ashamed for pushing their product, for falsely advertising it as better than BF for decades, and for using the misleading phrase "breast is best" which is intended to be interpreted as "formula is fine". These mega pharmaceutical giants and their marketing strategies should be demonized.


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## Moonprysm (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pen*
There are valid reasons for formula. Like there are no other mothers around who would nurse your baby. Don't know where that might be, though.







:

I don't know where you live, but where I am, I only know ONE person that breastfeeds. She lives 40 minutes away from me, and sorry if I'm not going to drive 40 minutes every 2 hours so that she can feed my son for me.

He gets what breastmilk I have. And screw anybody who thinks that makes me a horrible mother.


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## Pen (Jul 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Moonprysm*
I don't know where you live, but where I am, I only know ONE person that breastfeeds. She lives 40 minutes away from me, and sorry if I'm not going to drive 40 minutes every 2 hours so that she can feed my son for me. .

So, you see my point?
More people need to breastfed to be able to help out mothers who are having problems!


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## Pen (Jul 23, 2005)

No problem as big as this gets solved quickly.

But don't contribute to the problem.
In the meantime, extra effort is needed to turn the tide.

If you support breastfeeding - Support it. If you want to change the system - Change it. If you want to make mothers feel good about themselves no matter what choice they make then, well I'd like to say something here but I won't. I'll just say I won't participate.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pen*
How many mothers have died because they breastfed?
How many children died because they weren't breastfed?

You know, I read this and I just think Andrea Yates. I don't know if she was breastfeeding or not, but I do know she had an awful lot of pressure to do the "right" thing and look what happened. Babies died and mama went to prison. And before you blow this off as an extreme case, I am sure there are smaller cases of Andrea Yates's all over the world.

And before there was formula, how many babies died because a mother couldn't breastfeed, no alternatives could be found, and there was nothing else to be done?

Quote:

Don't speak out of both sides of your mouth. The more excuses we offer each other the harder it will be for people who can breastfeed to realize that they can breastfeed.
I really truly resent the implication that just because I am willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt that I am a hyprocrite. Are you truly claiming that 100% of women can breastfeed, they're just not trying hard enough?

Quote:

This is a matter of life for the child.
And this is the breastfeeding forum. Where people breastfeed.
I believe that this is an important advocacy topic and therefore it is appropriate in the breastfeeding forum where not everyone breastfeeds exclusively. You may actually be making points, but your tone and attitude is just so harsh and unyielding that I am having difficulties truly listening to what you have to say.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
You know, I read this and I just think Andrea Yates. I don't know if she was breastfeeding or not, but I do know she had an awful lot of pressure to do the "right" thing and look what happened.

She was not. And I hardly think her case can be blamed on our society... her husband maybe







: but that's a different topic.

-Angela


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## MotheringHeart (Dec 18, 2005)

I believe that it comes down to this:

IF YOU CAN'T SAY ANYTHING NICE, DON'T SAY IT AT ALL

No mother comes on this board bragging about their FF. No mother comes on this board and says they are proud about not breastfeeding. ALL the posts I've come across with weaning/FF/supplementing questions, the mothers have serious concerns and/or issues with breastfeeding and their child. So it seems to me that responders to those posts should keep their breastfeeding judgmentalness to themselves. These women are struggling and they are doing the best they can, so why write a response telling them they *should be doing more*??? It is not supportive, it isn't kind and it is unfortunate that people can't think before they type. I'm on my third breastfed kiddo and not every minute has been hunky dory. I still never thought of formula or bottle feeding and I HATE the thought of able breasted women using those things. HOWEVER, just because I think those things does not give me the right to judge another momma (outloud) in public, on this board. We all have to make choices and lots of people disagree. What's the point in being judgemental?

All that being said, I believe that breastfeeding is not supported and that WAY WAY too many women do not work hard at a breastfeeding relationship with their child. I have to agree with a PP that motherhood is something that lots of women feel like they *should* do instead of something they *want* to do. So then when baby comes they aren't interested in doing what's best for baby, they are only interested in regaining some semblance of the life they had before. Motherhood requires ENOURMOUS sacrifices. Breastfeeding is not always fun, nice, or easy. But it can be enormously satisfying. But it requires lots of hard work (for some people) and sacrifice. And unfortunately our society doesn't help because it really values the "me, me me" ethic.

And one more note.....My mother is a CNM in a rural area in Southern OR. She has a lot of very poor, highly uneducated clients. She was a LLL leader for MANY years and breastfed me until I was two and my sister until she was 3. Unfortunately, she has clients who take such bad care of themselves and are in such a bad place in life, that she encourages some of them NOT to breastfeed. They abuse drugs or smoke a ton or don't eat or are alcoholics and they neglect their babies. My mom knows the ONLY way those babies are going to survive is to be on formula. Is this right, I don't know.....but I'm not sure that getting rid of formula is the answer. Maybe we should regulate it, but then who's the judge? Is it like c-sections which were supposed to be so that babies/mother's lives could be saved and now they are totally abused? I don't know......but I'm not sure we really want the power of an alternative (but substandard) food source locked up behind regulations.


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

Pen, I appreciate what you're saying but formula, when used in a medical application - ie, to treat an acute condition (starvation!), when breast milk is not available (which is pretty darn common since we can't enslave poor people to produce milk for us after their babies died anymore) - is necessary to save babies' lives. Don't think for a minute that in the halcyon days before formula was invented that babies didn't starve to death. They did. Their mamas died in childbirth or suffered "milk fever" - what mastitis was called before doctors got ahold of it - and some of those mamas died, too. If a family was poor and the baby was LUCKY it got goat or cow milk. If the family didn't have access to a cow or goat or other milk subsitute and there were no relatives who could nurse the baby, it died. If the mama was malnourished herself and didn't produce enough milk, the baby often died. Say what you will about modern medicine and the medical establishment and formula and NICU interventions and all that (and goddess knows I am NOT defending them wholeheartedly, there is a LOT of unnecessary damage done to babies today) but the infant mortality rate is unarguably substantially lower now than it was 100 years ago. And NO I don't think formula is solely responsible for that but I think it does have its uses in saving babies' lives. It is grossly misused today, but that does not mean that in and of itself it is the evil some people seem to think it is.


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## Pen (Jul 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
. your tone and attitude is just so harsh and unyielding that I am having difficulties truly listening to what you have to say.

I can see that. So I'll break it down once more.
In today's culture, you cannot support both breastfeeding and formula. If you try formula will win out.


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pen*
I can see that. So I'll break it down once more.
In today's culture, you cannot support both breastfeeding and formula. If you try formula will win out.

You can recognize the medical necessity for formula without "supporting" it.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pen*
I can see that. So I'll break it down once more.
In today's culture, you cannot support both breastfeeding and formula. If you try formula will win out.

I support mothers and babies. I do not support formula.


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## Godiva (Sep 5, 2005)

I do feel that the breastfeeding board can be judgemental if you're not 100%bf or even thinking about giving even an ounce of formula. That's actually why I didn't seek help here much at all, I looked other places. My dd didn't regain her birthweight til she was a MONTH old and gained 4 oz total in her second month. I was nursing her 20 or more hours a day. My ped was pro breastfeeding, she breastfed all of her kids, she said "you can't possibly get any more stimulation than you're already getting, you're baby isn't getting the sleep she needs to develop because she's starving and would rather eat than sleep" She didn't tell me to use formula, she gave me the facts. I still tried for 2 months because the pro breastfeeding sites made me feel like a failure if I gave her formula. They all stated I was WRONG for thinking it, that my supply would increase if I just nursed more. I starved my baby for 2 months because I didn't want to be a failure and I either had people who were telling me not to breastfeed at all or that if I didn't breastfeed 100% I was "uneducated, didn't try hard enough, didn't have support" They also said if I gave her one ounce of formula that I would soon give her more and more and I wouldn't breastfeed at all. FInally I read the words of the title of this thread on westonaprice.org. It talked about mothers breastfeeding just for the sake of breastfeeding and I knew immeaditly that's what I was doing and that I was doing a disservice to my babe at best and neglecting her at worst. I didn't want to give her any old crap formula so I made it myself using all organic ingredients and wholesome rich foods and oils. My daughter thrived on it and only needed 4-8oz a day. Not much but enough to make her grow. I NEVER once increased the ammount I gave her and now at 8 months I have completely cut it out except for on the rare occasions when she seems hungier than I have milk for. The lies come from both sides and both sides can do a great disservice to mothers by perpetuating them. Judge less, support more, you may save a baby's life. God only knows what might have happened if I was never linked to that site, thanks to a very supportive MDC mama (who I'm sorry to say I can't remeber and I can't seem to find the thread)


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

I absolutely think it's worth almost anything. I went through some crap, but not nearly what others have gone through. With my first, he wouldn't latch. I was 20 and scared, but knew what to do mostly. I pumped for almost 2 weeks exclusively, then an IBCLC gave me a nipple shield and we used that for another 2 weeks. Then latch







Then my second son chewed me up every feed for weeks while he teethed







But I've heard so many lame things "I tried in the hospital but he liked a bottle better" etc...

I also put alot of blame on our screwy society. However, I am a militant believer in personal accountability, which society has also abandoned. It is up to *every* mother to search out info for herself. Reading What to Expect... is cute, but totally insufficient! I understand that there are horrible situations out there, but that's why we have IBCLCs, to help. No woman should be pumping blood, or crying at every feed! I agree we need to demoize formula - and the mothers who choose it. I also agree it's a medication, not a food.

As for making judgements, well I find no problem. When something is deemed wrong, even shameful by most of society, most people will have a hard time choosing to do it. I have no problem creating a culture of pressure *to* BF. But it all starts with the individual. You have to be healthy enough to have kids in the first place. Too many today are not. Even a bird knows to make a nest first, but humans think that's irrelevant. Most of these women who quit so easily are just selfish. It takes alot of time and effort to deal with getting the milk in in an alternative way. That just doesn't fit in between lunch with the girls and pilates class.


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## weetzie (May 29, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sjkmaurice*
I think what's getting completely misconstrued is the fact that negativity isn't pointed towards women who do fight for breastfeeding and for some reason or other it truly wasn't meant to be but rather mothers who make excuses for their selfish reasons why they don't breastfeed or didn't continue for as long as necessary for their child.


But why is it pointed towards mothers at all? Why isnt it pointed towards systems, towards formula companies, towards doctors offices and hospitals?

Please, stop the anger at other women. Lactivists will not win this war that way. it is impossible.


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## Pen (Jul 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spughy*
necessity

tricky word


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

I find the line of argument that says "Your baby's life depends on your bfing!" to be overstating the case just a touch.

I agree whole-heartedly that there are serious health risks to formula (including, in some cases, death), that these risks are not adequately understood, and that a mother needs to weigh them if/when making a difficult decision to ff. However.

*begin sarcasm* Do you know how many babies die a year in automobile accidents, for instance, even when properly restrained? And yet you still choose to put your child in a car and drive? How irresponsible. If you don't strap your child into a sling and walk EVERYWHERE you go, you're just putting your child's health and life at risk. *end sarcasm*

That is to say: there are risks--even deadly risks--to many things that we do as mothers. To imply that your child's very life depends upon your bfing (which we know simply isn't true in most cases--pretty much my whole generation was raised on formula, and we're still here, although we have more allergies, etc. than we otherwise might) is to me a little too close to the argument that says, "But if you don't vaccinate, your child with DIE!"


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## studentmama (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bri276*
But for the record? I don't judge mothers who have quit in the face of less daunting breastfeeding challenges- I judge a society that makes it so freaking hard to get the right info and the right support to keep going, I'm mad at people who call themselves medical professionals who fail at giving correct advice in the most basic situations.












We need to keep saying this over and over until women begin to realize breastfeeding is a women's rights issue.

We need to quit wasting our time judging other mamas and start addressing the root of the problem.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *studentmama*
We need to quit wasting our time judging other mamas and start addressing the root of the problem.









Absolutely. You've reached the heart of the matter right there.


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

"So it seems to me that responders to those posts should keep their breastfeeding judgmentalness to themselves. These women are struggling and they are doing the best they can, so why write a response telling them they *should be doing more*??? It is not supportive, it isn't kind and it is unfortunate that people can't think before they type."

But who decides what is judgmental?

When Boof posted, I agreed wholeheartedly, and found NOTHING judgmental in her posts.

Others did.

Who is to decide? How does one figure out who is going to read their post and who will be fine with it, and who won't?

What if someone has NEVER heard of fenugreek until someone mentions it, starts taking it, and it changes everything? What if someone has never heard of a nurse-in? What if someone is about to have a breast reduction and has not been told it might harm their chances of breastfeeding, and what if someone mentions it and their world is changed forever? I could go on and on.

I'm not one, except in one case on the page before, to look at who I'm talking to while I'm composing a reply. On other message boards I used to, and I found myself giving rude replies (hey, it was a wedding planning website, rude replies about cash vs hosted bar are usually expected, LOL) based on who was asking the question, and I decided long ago to try to not notice the OP. So I don't even know, usually, if I've given the same reply to the SAME person.







:

What if we're dealing with people who AREN'T doing all they could be doing, b/c they don't KNOW all they could be doing? Why would we WITHOLD that info from that person? HOW is that supportive? When they come back after giving up, and find the answer that MIGHT have changed everything, but it was withheld from them out of fear of sounding judgmental, how rightfully angry do you think that person might be?


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollyeilis*
What if we're dealing with people who AREN'T doing all they could be doing, b/c they don't KNOW all they could be doing? Why would we WITHOLD that info from that person? HOW is that supportive? When they come back after giving up, and find the answer that MIGHT have changed everything, but it was withheld from them out of fear of sounding judgmental, how rightfully angry do you think that person might be?

Where on earth did anyone say to withhold information? How is imparting information in a neutral way judgemental?


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *studentmama*
We need to quit wasting our time judging other mamas and start addressing the root of the problem.

Yes, yes. This is it.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pen*

Because some children do die. Or they live in pain, with lifelong allergies, or with sickness because we didn't put in a measly 3 or four years of pain and frustration, exhaustion and mental anguish.


I know this has been addressed, but I have just got to say...WOW. This is terrible advocacy. To say that babies die because...not because the mother NEVER breastfed, but because she did not *put in a measly THREE OR FOUR YEARS of pain and frustration, exhaustion and mental anguish*...now we have to breastfeed for three or four YEARS to be a good mother, to save our child from dying??

That just floored me. I have heard that lactivism is considered anti-feminist in some circles. I never really understood why, because breastfeeding advocacy seems profoundly feminist to me. But this statement gives me a clue as to why some people think that lactivists are anti-feminist, even anti-woman. Some of the righteous fervor on this thread is making me







:


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
But this statement gives me a clue as to why some people think that lactivists are anti-feminist, even anti-woman. Some of the righteous fervor on this thread is making me







:









Yes. I find a lot of this "lactivism" is very misogynist, when it enters into this territory of minimizing mamas' sacrifices, exhaustion and physical pain, and calling women names (I have seen it here... lazy, selfish, etc) for not bf'ing.

I really think the solution is to get off individual mamas' backs and address the real problem, which is a breastfeeding unfriendly, in fact a general mama and child unfriendly, culture.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
I know this has been addressed, but I have just got to say...WOW. This is terrible advocacy. To say that babies die because...not because the mother NEVER breastfed, but because she did not *put in a measly THREE OR FOUR YEARS of pain and frustration, exhaustion and mental anguish*...now we have to breastfeed for three or four YEARS to be a good mother, to save our child from dying??

That just floored me. I have heard that lactivism is considered anti-feminist in some circles. I never really understood why, because breastfeeding advocacy seems profoundly feminist to me. But this statement gives me a clue as to why some people think that lactivists are anti-feminist, even anti-woman. Some of the righteous fervor on this thread is making me







:

It reminds me of when I was pregnant with my third and the I failed the one-hour glucose. Even though I knew the test had been administered improperly. Even though I knew that I had four pregnancies and had never once shown signs of gestational diabetes. Even though I had not gained a single pound, but lost 20. Even though I was measuring exactly on schedule. My husband was out of town and I was fat and pregnant with two little ones at home and I wanted to trust my body and take the four hour test. And what did the midwife drag out on me?

"But you don't want your baby to DIE."

So, I paid a sitter and left children who weren't really ready to be without me that long for five hours and took the test and--surprise--it came up perfectly normal.

And I'm sure the midwife got to feel all smug because I did the "right" thing, in her estimation anyway.


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Where on earth did anyone say to withhold information? How is imparting information in a neutral way judgemental?

Here is part of the quote to which I was responding to, which might clarify what I was saying.

"These women are struggling and they are doing the best they can, so why write a response telling them they *should be doing more*???"

So this seems like it's advocating NOT including "more" info for a person, but to merely support them in whatever it is they are or have been doing.

So if you HAVE info, but you don't want to be rude by telling someone to "do more", then you are, actually, withholding information.

Like I even said in my post, whether or not something comes across as judgmental is ALMOST always in the eye/ear of the reader/listener. I almost always feel that I am being quite neutral when I type, but I am often told that I'm not. Then I try even harder the next time, and I'm told something else by another person, and so on... The women in my family, including me, have that problem with our "neutral face" as well...we think we have our faces in a nice, neutral, pleasant expression, and will be told to CHEER UP or asked "why are you mad?" by passers by... uh oh, I'm being self-involved again while trying to make a point...







My point is, I can never guess who will be offended when, so I have to do what I feel is right.


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## MotheringHeart (Dec 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollyeilis*
Here is part of the quote to which I was responding to, which might clarify what I was saying.

"These women are struggling and they are doing the best they can, so why write a response telling them they *should be doing more*???"

So this seems like it's advocating NOT including "more" info for a person, but to merely support them in whatever it is they are or have been doing.

So if you HAVE info, but you don't want to be rude by telling someone to "do more", then you are, actually, withholding information.

Like I even said in my post, whether or not something comes across as judgmental is ALMOST always in the eye/ear of the reader/listener. I almost always feel that I am being quite neutral when I type, but I am often told that I'm not. Then I try even harder the next time, and I'm told something else by another person, and so on... The women in my family, including me, have that problem with our "neutral face" as well...we think we have our faces in a nice, neutral, pleasant expression, and will be told to CHEER UP or asked "why are you mad?" by passers by... uh oh, I'm being self-involved again while trying to make a point...







My point is, I can never guess who will be offended when, so I have to do what I feel is right.

That is my quote and in fact, that is not what I meant. I have no problem saying to someone - "wow your situation sounds really difficult have you tried such and such to fix the problem" or "here's something i found helpful" What I DO have a problem with is when moms get on and they say they have tried everything (and really have) and then other posters get on and basically say they haven't done enough. And I've seen this happen again and again and again. It is completely unfortunate. I'm not saying withhold information...I'm saying find a way to give information w/out judgment and there is a way to do that. You just have to think a bit about it.....

I'm also wondering why there seems to be a general assumption on this board that mamas who say they've tried everything, actually haven't. I've seen that quite a few times. A mother gets on and says I've got a great LC and I'm working with every resource I can find and it just isn't working and there will ALWAYS be one other mom that says "I'm sure you could do more." This isn't advocacy, it's arrogance and insensitivty and I think it needs to stop.

When someone says in response to another mom's statment of needing to supplement/wean/change the nursing relationship "well I'd give my baby 2 years because that's what the WHO recommends" it isn't helpful. That's not information...it is just condescending. It comes off (and I know I'm not the only one who thinks this) as the poster is doing the be all end all and the rest of us just aren't cutting it because we're making different choices.

There is a difference between information and judgment.


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## Clarinet (Nov 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *weetzie*
But why is it pointed towards mothers at all? Why isnt it pointed towards systems, towards formula companies, towards doctors offices and hospitals?

Please, stop the anger at other women. Lactivists will not win this war that way. it is impossible.


Since this was addressed to me....I'm only talking about women who refuse to breastfeed. Not who try earnestly and can't.

YES! We should inform doctors and formula companies and offices and hospitals of the things they already know. Have you read a can of formula? It says breast is better.

I'm never, never, never, never going to think a mother who says she won't breastfeed because it's icky, tacky, disgusting, who says formula feeding is BETTER, or never even tried because she just didn't care one way or another has done the best she can for her child's nutrition. Sorry, nope.

Formula companies shouldn't advertise. Doctors shouldn't give stupid advice about weaning. Employers should provide places for mothers to pump. Hospitals shouldn't sabotage feeding by supplementing in the nursery. And mothers have a responsibility to their child to breastfeed as much as they can for as long as they can. Statistics show this is just not true.

I equate blaming formula companies and doctors for formula feeding by choice along the same lines as blaming McDonald's for making people overweight. Sure, you have the handful of people who truly think McDonald's is healthfood and are completely oblivious to the ramifications. Just like there are a small percentage of people who are oblivious to the health benefits of breastmilk.

We can go around and around with this, but this whole website is about being close to your child. And if someone comes on and says something about low supply, why shouldn't she be advised on how to boost it and discouraged from jumping on formula? Or when a mother says it hurts, why shouldn't she be given information on how to clear up mastitis and thrush again being discouraged from using formula? When a mother asks for formula information because she wants to leave her six month old for a few days, why shouldn't she be gently advised that it's not the best idea for the breastfeeding relationship? Isn't that what AP and breastfeeding is all about?

ETA: This is support, by the way. Introducing formula, or advocating it, into a health breastfeeding relationship and saying it's OK is not support. It's acquiesence. MAINSTREAM!


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

I think we also need to think about what is *effective*.

I don't care what the issue is, attacking someone will almost never get the change you want to see. It makes sense- by attacking someone's decisions or character, the individual attacked becomes defensive and stops listening.

The only way to affect behavior change is to a. understand where the individual is, b. respect the individual as an individual and c. offer alternatives that do not cause the indvidual to lose face/respect.

It may feel like a *cop out* but frankly, I judge efforts based on results, not on fury and passion. The most passionate lactivist may actually dissuade on the fence moms while someone who is more lukewarm may actually encourage moms to nurse.

Siobhan


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## MotheringHeart (Dec 18, 2005)

Okay...I have to jump in here again. ITA about what you are saying skjmaurice. I don't think we should acquiese. NONE of us would say to a mom who was thinking about CIO that it was a good idea. But the posts I read in Family Bed and Nightime Parenting are all full of "hugs" and "it's okay momma don't turn to that." Then when I get to Breastfeeding, the posts are about how "I'm doing what the WHO recommends, why aren't you" and "are you sure you've tried everything" with snotty and judgemental overtones. I just don't understand why the difference. Why can we not ALL offer hugs to the moms who are working hard at breastfeeding and offer information and non-judgmental guidance?


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sjkmaurice*
Since this was addressed to me....I'm only talking about women who refuse to breastfeed. Not who try earnestly and can't.

Yes, there is a huge difference. And I am much more likely to roll my eyes at mamas who simply refuse. But even "refusers" I would like us to rethink a little - why is the mama refusing? There must be some damn serious reasons to refuse to provide your newborn with the milk that is intended for them.

I think the reasons so many mamas refuse to try are also cultural, and should be addressed as such.

Otherwise it begins to feel a bit like the Handmaid's Tale to me, yk? A "good" woman must breastfeed. Otherwise she has *refused* to nourish her child! Shame, shame!! I can see the Aunties in my mind when I read some of the stuff on this board.

Quote:

if someone comes on and says something about low supply, why shouldn't she be advised on how to boost it and discouraged from jumping on formula? Or when a mother says it hurts, why shouldn't she be given information on how to clear up mastitis and thrush again being discouraged from using formula? When a mother asks for formula information because she wants to leave her six month old for a few days, why shouldn't she be gently advised that it's not the best idea for the breastfeeding relationship? Isn't that what AP and breastfeeding is all about?

ETA: This is support, by the way. Introducing formula, or advocating it, into a health breastfeeding relationship and saying it's OK is not support. It's acquiesence. MAINSTREAM!
ITA completely. I think one of the barriers to breastfeeding is the serious lack of decent information, and the constant urging to turn to formula. My grandmother believed I would be starving my baby if I did not give her formula. So many of us have been indoctrinated to believe we cannot nourish our children with our own bodies.

But when a mama says, I'm not breastfeeding, I have my reasons, it's not going to happen, then it is time to leave it alone, yk?


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

editing my beginning b/c I feel suddenly like I'm "taking your post apart". Yes, that's what I literally did, but I don't mean it to attack, but rather just to keep my brain in order. I hope you don't see it before I edit this!!! Sorry!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MotheringHeart*
What I DO have a problem with is when moms get on and they say they have tried everything (and really have) and then other posters get on and basically say they haven't done enough. And I've seen this happen again and again and again. It is completely unfortunate..

I'm on the same board, and I haven't seen that.

Quote:

I'm also wondering why there seems to be a general assumption on this board that mamas who say they've tried everything, actually haven't. I've seen that quite a few times. A mother gets on and says I've got a great LC and I'm working with every resource I can find and it just isn't working and there will ALWAYS be one other mom that says "I'm sure you could do more."
Well I can't remember the last time I did anything like that, but I know for me, I don't trust LCs any more than I trust doctors (or midwives, after my experience with highly recommended "homebirth midwives"). I've heard too many "bad LC" stories, and how do you KNOW if your LC is good, especially if there are ongoing problems? What if the problems are being caused by awful advice? How do you know if s/he is giving good advice, if you're alone? How does someone giving advice know? I *thought* my hired midwives were good, I was wrong. If I'd talked to more people and had been open to people judging my hiring abilities, I might have gotten out in time.

Quote:

When someone says in response to another mom's statment of needing to supplement/wean/change the nursing relationship "well I'd give my baby 2 years because that's what the WHO recommends" it isn't helpful. That's not information...it is just condescending. It comes off (and I know I'm not the only one who thinks this) as the poster is doing the be all end all and the rest of us just aren't cutting it because we're making different choices.
And I find it helpful. To the point, simple, short. And I've never seen that reply to someone, for instance, who says "I had a breast reduction 10 years ago, I've adopted this older baby, I've tried a through z, no one can figure out what else to do", where it's just not going to be possible (and I'm NOT saying that's the ONLY case where it would be impossible), rather, I've seen that response to much lighter cases, often involving burnout or lack of support or information... Regardless, those sort of posts never offend me (actually that's not true, one time on another board I got a nasty reply about what I was doing about my cat's health, but in that case the replier just didn't read everything I'd written and told me to do things I had stated I was already doing), I find them helpful.

Plus, quite often people find the citation of WHO to be helpful. Look at how many posts there are right now saying "give me sources", rather than "give me millenia of mammal information". People want hard sources so they can feel they are doing the right thing, so they can tell others they are doing the right thing, and so on. In fact, giving the WHO citation actually, to me, takes away any sting, b/c it's NOT saying "I did this I'm a goddess do what I do". Darned if you do, darned if you don't, in this case, in my opinion!









Quote:

There is a difference between information and judgment.
I think, er, I know, we'd see the same post in different ways.







:


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## MotheringHeart (Dec 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollyeilis*
editing my beginning b/c I feel suddenly like I'm "taking your post apart". Yes, that's what I literally did, but I don't mean it to attack, but rather just to keep my brain in order. I hope you don't see it before I edit this!!! Sorry!

I'm on the same board, and I haven't seen that.

Well I can't remember the last time I did anything like that, but I know for me, I don't trust LCs any more than I trust doctors (or midwives, after my experience with highly recommended "homebirth midwives"). I've heard too many "bad LC" stories, and how do you KNOW if your LC is good, especially if there are ongoing problems? What if the problems are being caused by awful advice? How do you know if s/he is giving good advice, if you're alone? How does someone giving advice know? I *thought* my hired midwives were good, I was wrong. If I'd talked to more people and had been open to people judging my hiring abilities, I might have gotten out in time.

And I find it helpful. To the point, simple, short. And I've never seen that reply to someone, for instance, who says "I had a breast reduction 10 years ago, I've adopted this older baby, I've tried a through z, no one can figure out what else to do", where it's just not going to be possible (and I'm NOT saying that's the ONLY case where it would be impossible), rather, I've seen that response to much lighter cases, often involving burnout or lack of support or information... Regardless, those sort of posts never offend me (actually that's not true, one time on another board I got a nasty reply about what I was doing about my cat's health, but in that case the replier just didn't read everything I'd written and told me to do things I had stated I was already doing), I find them helpful.

Plus, quite often people find the citation of WHO to be helpful. Look at how many posts there are right now saying "give me sources", rather than "give me millenia of mammal information". People want hard sources so they can feel they are doing the right thing, so they can tell others they are doing the right thing, and so on. In fact, giving the WHO citation actually, to me, takes away any sting, b/c it's NOT saying "I did this I'm a goddess do what I do". Darned if you do, darned if you don't, in this case, in my opinion!









I think, er, I know, we'd see the same post in different ways.







:

I see what you're saying. The written word is so hard because there is so much interpretation that goes on. I just feel like the breastfeeding board really lacks some empathy sometimes. Maybe the posters don't mean to be condescending, but I know that I'm not the only one who gets that sometimes from different posts. There are other posters on this very discussion who have said they feel like there are some posts that get judgmental. I'm just asking that we (as a community) approach the subject with a little less extremism (and by that I don't mean we should be less passionate, I just think we need to be more empathetic.)


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollyeilis*

I think, er, I know, we'd see the same post in different ways.







:

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I just want to say that when someone posts and describes a situation where it is likely that with the right tools and support the BF relationship can be salvaged, or if someone is just feeling dejected and down and really just needs a reminder of all the good they are doing by continuing to BF, it is wholly appropriate IMO to provide info, including the WHO recommendations, etc., in a supportive way. BUT if someone has ALREADY WEANED THEIR BABY for whatever reason it is NOT appropriate to tell them that "all babies NEED breastmilk for TWO YEARS". Talk about useless. No one is going to relactate (assuming it would be possible) because someone on a message point snidely judges their decision to wean and questions its finality or the reasons behind it. Instead, they are going to feel judged and shamed - and ANGRY.

And I have seen this happen, time and time again. A mother of twins who had BF them to one year posted on an unrelated topic and someone told her that she should have BF them to 2. I was so







: on this mama's behalf that I sent her a PM. I mean, there is advocacy, and there is pointless judging and shaming. To me it's pretty darn clear when information is called for and helpful, and when it's not. But some people feel the need to MAKE SURE that everyone who has not done their full 2-year breastfeeding tour of duty has not given their babies what they NEED. It's really sickening to me, because there is not even a pretense of "help" being offered. It's snide judgment pure and simple, after the fact.

So yeah, two reasonable people could disagree on what constitutes information and what constitutes judgment (or, I'll use a different word, since some people think that judgment is not wrong - how about 'cattiness'). But when a BF relationship has already ended, or if a mama is feeling truly hopeless and is reaching out for permission to end an agonizing BF relationship, it DOES NOT HELP HER to learn (once again) that babies NEED breastmilk for 2 years. Whereas that might be very helpful information to a mama in a different, less final or fraught situation, where it is a case of someone planning to wean who could easily choose not to, and who truly does not know that breastmilk is extremely beneficial past one and in fact even recommended by the WHO to 2 and beyond.

When in doubt, I always think it best to be sensitive to others' feelings. Even though others are, it is true, responsible for their feelings, that is a pretty disingenuous thing to say to excuse being more harsh online than we would be in person. I have found that when my aim is truly to help, I am more likely to be helpful when I respect people and speak to them where they are, instead of from a place of judgment. And I have definitely found that when I am in need of parenting help, being given the implication that I am insufficiently concerned with my baby's needs is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT UNHELPFUL. Even if it is phrased as "information".


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
I really think the solution is to get off individual mamas' backs and address the real problem, which is a breastfeeding unfriendly, in fact a general mama and child unfriendly, culture.

But it's still each person's responsibility to do what's right, no matter what's popular.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *weetzie*
But why is it pointed towards mothers at all? Why isnt it pointed towards systems, towards formula companies, towards doctors offices and hospitals?

Please, stop the anger at other women. Lactivists will not win this war that way. it is impossible.

Because, even though the system is flawed, the women still buy the formula, even though they will themselves admit that "breastmilk is best", but they shrug it off as no big deal. And that is their fault! They should be held accountable, it's a terrible thing to do







:


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Before I respond...My daughter nursed until she was nearly five years old, 2 months until she turned 5 in fact. I loved our breastfeeding relationship - ups, downs, and everything in between- In fact there are times I still wish we nursed, and I know she does as well.

And now to answer the question...HELL NO! It is NOT worth the loss of sanity, and I mean real sanity, by any measure.

What is this "real" effort some mamas speak of? Real by who's judgement?

Breastfeeding isn't the be all- end all to parenting or mothering. To be sure it is only one aspect of mothering that determines what kind of mother you are. Do I know mothe'r's who have nursed their children and been bad mother's - YES! Do I know mother's who have formula fed and been gentle mothers - YES! I also know children who have been formula fed who have had many ear infections and illnesses, just as I have known many breastfed infants with the same.

Do I believe breastmilk to be superior to formula, OH HELL YES! But it is not worth the risk of sanity of a mama.

And no one has the right to judge what level of mental discomfort another woman should have to endure before they are allowed to "give up". My jaw drops every time I read these threads. Talk about the man walking away wit hthe prize while the women fight over the wrapper.







:


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

I'm feeling like the pendulum in this argument has swung from

"Yes, breastfeed at all costs, even if you have postpartum psychosis and bleeding breasts with zero supply and a starving baby"

to

"No, it's not worth it to breastfeed at all if it's making you even a bit tired/stressed/uncomfortable or taking time that should be so happy and glorious and perfect with your child"

As usual, I feel the truth is somewhere in the middle.

I resent the implication that EP'ing moms sacrifice attachment. I'm a SAHM with ONE child- yeah, if I went into the WOHM forum and said they're sacrificing attachment by working 40-50 hrs a week away from their kids I'd be hung, bled and burned at the stake (btw, I don't believe that, and would never say it), but it's okay to imply that you're ignoring or neglecting your kid if you pump for 20 minutes every few hours. HUH??? I don't know about other EP'ers, but my kid takes naps, and is cool with playing with toys for a while, and I have a DH who is happy to entertain her for a while!

No one should shame another mother- not one who chose not to breastfeed, not one who tried and it didn't work out, and not one who does make sacrifices that others may think are too extreme in order to breastfeed. This whole conversation is wrong, wrong wrong.


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## MamaFranklin (Jun 28, 2006)

Has anyone actually known someone who refused to breastfeed? Many times it is because they were molested as a very small child.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bri276*

"No, it's not worth it to breastfeed at all if it's making you even a bit tired/stressed/uncomfortable or taking time that should be so happy and glorious and perfect with your child"

.

I really don't see this viewpoint (or anything close to its spirit) being advocated ANYWHERE on this thread! Can you quote a post?


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bri276*

No one should shame another mother- not one who chose not to breastfeed, not one who tried and it didn't work out, and not one who does make sacrifices that others may think are too extreme in order to breastfeed. This whole conversation is wrong, wrong wrong.

I totally agree. And my hat is off to anyone who sacrifices to breastfeed - as is everyone's here - I think we agree on that!


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

norasmama- read the past 3-4 pages, there are a few that I personally interpreted that way. and there was one mama who implied a child would be better off going to playgroups and museums than being ignored while mom pumped, I really don't have the energy to go look for the post and quote it, plus I don't want to start another sub-argument


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaFranklin*
Has anyone actually known someone who refused to breastfeed? Many times it is because they were molested as a very small child.

I can think of about 10 people off the top of my head who chose not to breastfeed and while certainly no one knows everyone's entire personal history, to my knowledge, and several of these women are very close family and friends, they were not molested, just did not feel "comfortable" with bf'ing, or did not feel it was worth it or important.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

They also might not have felt comfortable with telling you why they were uncomfortable. Oddly enough.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

like I said, if you'd read my post, "certainly no one knows everyone's entire personal history".

but I find it very hard to believe that every single one of them, especially those who are close to me, enough so that I know their parents and siblings, were all molested and that's the reason why. Oddly enough. I've been one of the least judgmental towards mothers who ff by choice on this whole thread, so your surly post wasn't really called for. A specific question was asked so I answered it.

especially when one of them seriously considered bf'ing the entire time she was pregnant, lamented the fact that she would be unable to imbibe copious amount of alcohol on a regular basis if she did bf, and suddenly at about 7 months pregnant, with ALL the info on bf'ing, decided that formula would be easier and just as good and chose not to bf, and has a child with severe illness that could have been partially alleviated by bf'ing and still assures me that she doesn't regret not even trying (I didn't ask- she brought it up).


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

It's estimated that about 1 in 4 women were sexually assaulted before the age of 18. Given that statistic I wouldn't find it incredible at all if every woman here knew at least half a dozen women struggling with issues of sexual abuse at some level.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

But bri, you're still focusing on those bad bad women and their stupid/selfish choices. What is the purpose of that? I just really think it's pointless at best and counterproductive as well. And potentially very hurtful if you happen to misjudge someone's situation, which happens.

And it's much easier for someone whose cultural milieu supports formula feeding to make that "selfish" choice to feed formula, etc. There are tons of factors that make people more likely to make bad choices. You can explain a woman's choices without impugning her character at all - there are so many reasons people might choose to FF in our culture - so why go the disdainful route?

I also really think that when we are disdainful and judgmental of others, it does something negative to US. It shuts off a little bit of our humanity. And I say this as someone who is actually a very judgmental person by nature. It's not healthy to judge others - if we think they have made a bad choice, how can we make the situation better? If we can't, we can mourn it, but publicly judging them (besides a vent, when it really bugs us, to those who understand) - what good does that do?

Back to the original topic, I was thinking about how far I would personally go to BF and I know I would stop way before pumping 8 oz. of blood. I am awed by that kind of determination, and humbled. And I know I don't possess it. But I'd hope that if I had had to stop BF I would still be able to hold my head high at MDC and not cower if I dared to post in one of the BF forums!


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## kalirush (Jun 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bri276*
I resent the implication that EP'ing moms sacrifice attachment.

Just wanted to say- to my memory, the only people saying that EP'ing moms sacrifice attachment were EP'ing moms themselves, or people quoting those moms.

Quote:

No one should shame another mother- not one who chose not to breastfeed, not one who tried and it didn't work out, and not one who does make sacrifices that others may think are too extreme in order to breastfeed. This whole conversation is wrong, wrong wrong.
I agree with you about not shaming other mothers, but I do think this conversation is incredibly important. It goes back to what a pp said (and I'm sorry I don't remember your name):

Quote:

Lactivists will not win this war that way. it is impossible.
This is absolutely the truth. This anger and negativity towards ff moms (the repeated desire to shame those moms, for example) is what gives lactivists their extreme boob-nazi image. You know, the image that makes women advise new mothers to stay the hell away from LLL? The image that prevents women from connecting with the very people who could most help them succeed at breastfeeding? The image that makes bf look like something "those people" do, and not something the average woman does?

Cast it as "doing the right thing" all you like- trying to hold mothers to task for their feeding choices does nothing positive and only adds to the general perception of lactivists as judgemental extremists holding women to an impossible standard.

Work to remove legal obstacles to NIP. Work to educate medical personnel. Work to normalize bfing in mainstream culture. Work to further bf education of the public.

STOP trying to decide whether an individual mom's choice was right or wrong. Because, whether or not it *was* right or wrong, nothing positive comes out of that place of judgement.

Julia


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
Back to the original topic, I was thinking about how far I would personally go to BF and I know I would stop way before pumping 8 oz. of blood. I am awed by that kind of determination, and humbled.

I'm not, frankly. I'm saddened, again, that this is still the state of motherhood in our culture. Who will that blood feed? No one. It's considered an exemplary act of motherhood only because it is one of severe and horrific self-sacrifice. Very 19th century, I fear.

I'd go to great lengths to protect my child, but bleeding myself out? That's plain out silly and tragic and serves only my pride.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Actually, you know, this discussion reminds me of a creepy guy I used to know. He was fixated on the theme of women dying in childbirth. He would talk about it all the time, watch hokey movies where it happened, etc. He was really obsessed. He would always say "dying in childbirth is the most beautiful thing a woman can do...it's the ultimate sacrifice."

I bet he'd get a real thrill out of the idea that pumping out ounces of blood, losing one's nipples, and enduring 4 years of pain is the standard for responsible motherhood in some parts.

Because you know, women are only valuable as bodies.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Great posts, Julia and BSD.

I *am* completely in awe of someone who would go so far as to pump BLOOD in order to feed their baby, and I am NOT going to go ahead and judge THAT mama if I'm not going to judge FF'ers. On a personal level it represents incredible determination and a desire to succeed that I only wish I could have access to.

But, on a societal level, your point is well taken. Extremely well taken. And Julia, you put it so well. We complain so bitterly about being called Boob Nazis, but when someone who didn't BF/gave up early/whatever has been harshly judged (perhaps only online! where apparently it is OK to insult people since they are 'responsible for their own feelings' about what is said to them!) and they see a woman looking at them feeding a bottle, they must feel incredibly threatened. They are not going to try to BF the next child. They are not going to refer their friend to an LC or LLL when she has trouble BF. They are going to tell everyone who will listen about the BREASTFEEDING NAZI who SHAMED them.

It sets the cause back so much, each time a woman feels shamed. If we truly want to build a breastfeeding culture, there is NO PLACE for shaming women! No matter what ridiculous or 'selfish' reason they gave not to breastfeed! It cannot be said often enough.

ETA I thought about the blood thing again and, my apologies to whoever actually did that, but you could have died. 8 oz. I guess it just hit me. 8 oz. Yes, that is not a sacrifice ANYONE should make. Your baby would rather have formula than a dead mommy. Maybe I got the ounces wrong...even so, it is truly horrific. Yikes. I really can't imagine even continuing to pump and/or breastfeed if my nipples bled at ALL. I need to keep thinking about this...


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## Kajira (May 23, 2006)

Dang I should have posted earlier.

I don't think the all or nothing attitude we see here helps anyone, esp not the mothers that come here for help, and end up being bashed, I've seen it happen.
I don't think it's worth everything, we don't know what goes on in homes, we don't see the sleepless nights, the tears, the depression, we don't know the cost.
I have a friend will never breastfeed, she's a danger if she's not on her meds and none of them are safe for bf-ing, I've checked, so if she says she's never tried, and ppl bash oh she was more concerned about this or that, nope she didn't want to endanger her child or anyone she came into contact with, her entire family has these mental issues and her mom has all girls








I've seen her sister try to bf and not take meds, I must admit I was pleased when she decided to ff, mommy needs to be mentally stable more than bf, that's my view and I'm sticking to it.

For those who pumped blood my hat goes off to you.
When my nipples got cracked and chucks of them were coming off, I certainly wanted out, and I can understand how someone with no support would stop at that point, so actual blood when pumping would have ended it for me.

We have to understand this is not about those who don't want to bf,
This is about those who are dangers to their kids and themselves, who can't function fully if they bf, who have battle scars a mile wide from doing everything and debt from paying LC, and the other professionals and still got no where.
They have my respect how can they have anything else but, when most of use have never walked in their shoes, and if we had would be much less inclined to spew at them.


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## Boof (Dec 1, 2004)

I wonder if there is a single post where what I said was taken in context.







but I digress...

To whomever made the fighting over the wrapper comment- Rock on! Too true!

It seems we all agree that society as a whole needs to change. OK, how about a new conversation about how to change it? Instead of going over the same misunderstood ground for 10 more pages, let's talk about how to get to the root of the problem.

Another question:
edited because I got my answer.


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## Dido (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog*
Actually, you know, this discussion reminds me of a creepy guy I used to know. He was fixated on the theme of women dying in childbirth. He would talk about it all the time, watch hokey movies where it happened, etc. He was really obsessed. He would always say "dying in childbirth is the most beautiful thing a woman can do...it's the ultimate sacrifice."

I bet he'd get a real thrill out of the idea that pumping out ounces of blood, losing one's nipples, and enduring 4 years of pain is the standard for responsible motherhood in some parts.

Because you know, women are only valuable as bodies.

Great point, BSD. I really like your posts!


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Why are we continueing to fight amongst ourselves? To build higher this barrier between women? Shouldn't we be gently encouraging each other with loving support and kindness? Embracing our sisters? Instead we face off like religious fundamentalists in a war over whose religion is the most true.

When it comes down to it MAMAS we are all women, and we should ALL be on the same side helping each other!

I am saddened that we are all argueing AGAIN! We pay lipservice to the idea of women's rights and unity, then bash and backstab each other to death. nice. Real Nice.


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## MotheringHeart (Dec 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Boof*
I wonder if there is a single post where what I said was taken in context.







but I digress...

To whomever made the fighting over the wrapper comment- Rock on! Too true!

It seems we all agree that society as a whole needs to change. OK, how about a new conversation about how to change it? Instead of going over the same misunderstood ground for 10 more pages, let's talk about how to get to the root of the problem.

Another question:
edited because I got my answer.

I think we are talking about some of the problem. Here in our little community moms have expressed that they feel judged and put down because of their choices to wean/supplement/make different choices than ebf for 2 or more years. And that IS a problem. You stated in a PP that if people feel judged, too bad for them, they should just ignore it. I'm not sure how this attitude helps anyone. It is possible that we need to do a better job with less judgement and more supporting. No one has come up with any answers for that issue. Moms are stating they stayed away from the breastfeeding board when they had issues, or that they have had problems with judmental posters when they did have a question. That needs to change! Yeah, you're right in an ideal world everyone would just ignore the comments that hurt them/judge them/caused hard feelings, but we know that isn't the way things work.

So here we are, addressing the problem. Start supporting the women in this board. Support them with information, hugs and understanding; instead of judgement. I think if we can all agree to tone down the judgement and up the empathy, then we should move on to tackling the overall societal problem of choosing not to ebf.


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## Nisupulla (Jun 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
BREASTFEEDING NAZI

Godwin's Law, other side wins!









http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law


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## Nisupulla (Jun 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog*
It's estimated that about 1 in 4 women were sexually assaulted before the age of 18. Given that statistic I wouldn't find it incredible at all if every woman here knew at least half a dozen women struggling with issues of sexual abuse at some level.

But not all women who were sexually abused will choose not to BF due to the abuse! Obviously, it's one more barrier.

When you compare the statistics to other countries, Americans do not try and/or succeed to breastfeed at a very high rate. Isolating one reason that women will not opt to BF and trying to use it to explain the difference is futile.


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## Godiva (Sep 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Boof*
It seems we all agree that society as a whole needs to change. OK, how about a new conversation about how to change it? Instead of going over the same misunderstood ground for 10 more pages, let's talk about how to get to the root of the problem.

First off I'd say to closely examine your party's info that they give out. Like I said before both sides lie, in just about any subject, there are lies and biases from both(any) viewpoint. I can think of a few I've seen touted on pro breastfeeding sites.

One is that all breastmilk is equeally nutritious no matter what the mom's diet is. Studies compared breastmilk from different regions of mothers starving in poverty and those with nutritious diets. The nutrients varied greatly. The basic compostition was the same as in protein/fat ratio but the vitimans were sometimes up to 8 times less in nutritionally starved mothers than those with a good diet. Most american women I'd say are starved nutritionally. We don't know how to eat healthy and live on fast food and tv dinners. Is it fair to tell them "oh keep eating that big mac, your breastfeeding child will get the same nutrients, it doesn't matter"? Of course not. Their health will actually suffer the worst because the body will pull all the nutrients she needs and put it to the breastmilk. But if there's nothing left to pull from her body, what does the child get? They end up without proper nutrition either. If you eat junkfood, your breastmilk will be junkfood. (even junkfood breastmilk is 10 times better than formula though, please don't think I'm pushing formula)

"If you feed even an ounce of formula, it will start you on a path of giving more and more formula til you don't breastfeed at all" If you are giving formula because it is extremely obvious that your child needs more food, it will NOT make you stop breastfeeding all together. You are just giving what your body can't make for whatever reason. You will still make the same ammount as before because your child is still demanding that breastmilk. If the demand is greater than the supply, adding to the supply isn't going to decrease the demand. This one scared me from "just trying one bottle" "that's how it all starts" I was told. "Just keep nursing, your supply WILL increase. You'll be like all those other young uneducated moms if you give her that formula. I'm telling you, that formula is the devil, it's set out to undermine breastfeeding at any chance. You'll regret it later when you're not breastfeeding at all." Well guess what, I gave her that evil bottle of formula and I never increased it past one bottle and 8 months later she's 100% breastfed.

Supply is always created by demand. No not always. I don't know why I didn't make enough milk, I was young and healthy and determined to breastfeed. My daughter never recieved artificial nipples, latched and sucked well. The LC said everything was going great, we'd have a great nursing relationship. Her second day after she was born she nursed for 18 hours STRAIGHT and really for the whole week only taking 20 minute naps here and there. She DEMANDED the milk, it just didn't come. I nursed and nursed and nursed. My nipples cracked and bled. I cried every time she latched. She didn't have a bad latch but if you nurse long enough your nipples will get sore. If you never take your feet out of the water, they will start to crack and bleed and rot away. I took herbs that were supposed to increase my supply. I agree that all too often mothers are told they don't have enough milk when really they do, but it's not fair to pretend that it's so uncommon a problem that the mom must be making it up when she says her child screams because she's hungry. My instinct was saying she needed more food but I thought I sounded just like the "bad moms" that pro breastfeeding sites quote for what they deem poor excuses to start formula. They pretend low supply is a made up problem. We have a whole tribe of mothers here who have struggled with the same thing I have. I highly doubt that they feel their problem is made up.

I'm giving personal examples here but I don't think my situation is a unique one. I completely understand why many people feel that pro-breastfeeders are "boobie-nazis" I'm pro breastfeeding and I feel the same way much of the time. I do hold myself accountable for not listening to my insticnts. I wasn't forced into witholding food my child desperately needed. I feel mad at myself for not seeing the lies sooner but I wanted to be a good mom, not one who makes the "selfish" decision to give her formula and I definatly feel as though I would have given it to her sooner if I had been told "it's ok, you've tried everything and you're not going to harm your child by giving her a bit of formula". I was told to pump in between feedings







BETWEEN feedings? My life was one constant feeding, there was no between. Start with giving a bit more support and a lot more truth and people will come to see the breastfeeders and kind wise women, not crazy people who think you failed as a mother if you gave up breastfeeding when you started pumping blood.


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## Godiva (Sep 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MotheringHeart*
I think we are talking about some of the problem. Here in our little community moms have expressed that they feel judged and put down because of their choices to wean/supplement/make different choices than ebf for 2 or more years. And that IS a problem. You stated in a PP that if people feel judged, too bad for them, they should just ignore it. I'm not sure how this attitude helps anyone. It is possible that we need to do a better job with less judgement and more supporting. No one has come up with any answers for that issue. Moms are stating they stayed away from the breastfeeding board when they had issues, or that they have had problems with judmental posters when they did have a question. That needs to change! Yeah, you're right in an ideal world everyone would just ignore the comments that hurt them/judge them/caused hard feelings, but we know that isn't the way things work.

So here we are, addressing the problem. Start supporting the women in this board. Support them with information, hugs and understanding; instead of judgement. I think if we can all agree to tone down the judgement and up the empathy, then we should move on to tackling the overall societal problem of choosing not to ebf.

Thank you so much!!


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

I think we are talking about some of the problem. Here in our little community moms have expressed that they feel judged and put down because of their choices to wean/supplement/make different choices than ebf for 2 or more years. And that IS a problem. You stated in a PP that if people feel judged, too bad for them, they should just ignore it. I'm not sure how this attitude helps anyone. It is possible that we need to do a better job with less judgement and more supporting. No one has come up with any answers for that issue. Moms are stating they stayed away from the breastfeeding board when they had issues, or that they have had problems with judmental posters when they did have a question. That needs to change! Yeah, you're right in an ideal world everyone would just ignore the comments that hurt them/judge them/caused hard feelings, but we know that isn't the way things work.

So here we are, addressing the problem. Start supporting the women in this board. Support them with information, hugs and understanding; instead of judgement. I think if we can all agree to tone down the judgement and up the empathy, then we should move on to tackling the overall societal problem of choosing not to ebf.

Well said!


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bri276*
I can think of about 10 people off the top of my head who chose not to breastfeed and while certainly no one knows everyone's entire personal history, to my knowledge, and several of these women are very close family and friends, they were not molested, just did not feel "comfortable" with bf'ing, or did not feel it was worth it or important.

I'm totally not getting your point. I believe the OPs point was that for SOME mothers, there might be hidden reasons that you aren't privy to that impede her from breastfeeding. ANd I think this is a very important point when lactivists go around spouting statistics like "Well, only 4% of the population truly can't breastfeed." Because there is more to the puzzle than physical imposibility.


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## Starr (Mar 16, 2005)

The reason I asked my questions, a few pages back, was that I don't think that FF automatically makes people bad mothers. Yes my circumstance is very unique and I did look into donor milk but do you honestly know what that costs? $4 and ounce, AN OUNCE. Plus shipping. There is no way I could afford to give Olivia donor milk. I don't feel that feeding formula should make a person feel shameful as someone else suggested. One thing a lot of people need to understand is that a great majority of the women who do FF here on MDC are not the ones who chose to because it seemed like work. The women here who FF are the exceptions. We are the ones who have adopted, foster, and tried our darnest.

And to the original question, Breatmilk at any cost? I feel very strongly that my daughter will thrive much better in my home, in my care, even with me feeding her formula than say opposed to her birth mom keeping her and BF her and growing up in a third world country. I think we need to look at the bigger picture here.


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Starr*
The reason I asked my questions, a few pages back, was that I don't think that FF automatically makes people bad mothers. Yes my circumstance is very unique and I did look into donor milk but do you honestly know what that costs? $4 and ounce, AN OUNCE. Plus shipping. There is no way I could afford to give Olivia donor milk.

Well, I was talking about milkshare -- where you can find local moms DONATING not selling their milk. You only have to pay for bags or containers for local moms. Just something to think about anyway.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

I just want to say re: pumping blood. If I remember correctly, the mama who mentioned that way back at the beginning said that there were times when she'd pump an ounce of blood along with the milk. ONE ounce. Not eight. I don't think anyone would be pump 8 oz of their own blood in the cause of breastfeeding. I certainly hope not.


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## Nisupulla (Jun 16, 2006)

Quote:

I don't think that FF automatically makes people bad mothers
On another board, this accusation that BFs are calling FFs bad mothers was so rampant that the BFs decided if they had a nickel for each time this statement was made they'd be rich!

Cha-ching, Cha-ching


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

For one solution I really think we need to focus on the small goals -- like getting women to give bfing at least 4-6 weeks before giving up...or even smaller -- women need to be educated on how crucial it is for babies to receive that colostrum the first week. What good things a woman can do for her babies needs to be the focus. Yes, breastfeeding should be the normal way and yes, I believe it is every child's birthright...but if we go around preaching *only* that message -- a lot of women are going to become intimidated, discouraged, etc. and just give up before even trying. Why are we lactivists? Isn't it because we care about those babies and want them to have proper nutrition? We've got to love and mentor those mothers if we want to have a positive influence on their kids.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

About this idea that donor milk (either the exorbitant pasteurized version or freebies from kindly strangers/acquaintances) is the catch-all solution...

Honestly if for some reason I couldn't breastfeed I wouldn't be too terribly thrilled at the idea of feeding my child someone's donated milk simply on the principle of liking to err on the side of caution when it comes to other people's bodily fluids. I wouldn't accept blood that didn't come from a legitimate blood bank with tons of screening protocols, no matter how badly I needed a transfusion. A lot of the same diseases are transmissable through milk so really, if someone doesn't want to accept unscreened donor milk, who can blame them? Oh I'm sure lots of people can blame them, but it's silly.

Pasteurized breast milk isn't worth a whole lot as far as antibodies go, it also loses a lot of nutrients (at least that's the last study I read, they could have found differently since then.)


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## Kajira (May 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twins10705*
Well, I was talking about milkshare -- where you can find local moms DONATING not selling their milk. You only have to pay for bags or containers for local moms. Just something to think about anyway.

well some don't have that option, unless say 6 of you lovely ladies are going to move near by each member who has problems breast feeding and donate milk to her








I know in my area I've seen ONE bf-ing woman in 3 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thanks to mdc some of us are getting together but seriously most of us were of the opinion that we were little islands FARRRRRRRRRR from mainland.

I just find it hard to believe that ppl here are so encapsulated (sp) in their own worlds that they attack those who need help the most, and those who have woked so very hard for ever drop they've ever given their babes


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## Kajira (May 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twins10705*
For one solution I really think we need to focus on the small goals -- like getting women to give bfing at least 4-6 weeks before giving up...or even smaller -- women need to be educated on how crucial it is for babies to receive that colostrum the first week. What good things a woman can do for her babies needs to be the focus. Yes, breastfeeding should be the normal way and yes, I believe it is every child's birthright...but if we go around preaching *only* that message -- *a lot of women are going to become intimidated, discouraged, etc. and just give up before even trying.* Why are we lactivists? Isn't it because we care about those babies and want them to have proper nutrition? We've got to love and mentor those mothers if we want to have a positive influence on their kids.


swear I'm not picking on you.
the bold should be are not are going to, it's already happened and continues to happen every single day.


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## Pen (Jul 23, 2005)

What should be done? Be Positive. Breastfeed.

I think that the formula option should be ignored.
I think breastfeeding should be promoted as THE way a baby is fed.
I think we should assume that mothers are breastfeeding and respond accordingly.
If we see a bottle, assume that it is breast milk.
Breastfeed everywhere and however is best for your child.
If we change our mindset, then our words will change.
If you expect the best, you'll get it.

If you think that formula is just as good and that many, many moms just can't breastfeed, then that will come out too.

If women weren't sex objects and kept in our place, I don't think we'd be having any trouble breastfeeding. How not to be a sex object? how not to have our place dictated by someone else? Other than doing what you know is right? I don't know.

Just because we are all women, mothers, people, whatever , doesn't mean that we should all agree or support all decision everyone makes. And why are people afraid of someone else's opinion anyway? I don't need your validation, why do you need mine? If you want support for whatever decision you make, find it. But you won't get mine if I don't agree. Not that you care, right?

If I see someone making a poor choice, I am going to do/say something. I am not going to sit on my hiney. I am used to be out of the mainstream. I, too, feel the need to be accepted but there are limits. I would not want to be in the mainstream of this crowd. And I am not afraid to offend for a good cause.

I used to be wishy-washy. It did no one any good and frankly made me sick. If being more assertive about how I feel makes someone else uncomfortable, perhaps that will start some momentum. Certainly comfort doesn't cause change. Why would you move if you are so comfortable?

If talking about breastfeeding and the need for it threatens somebody, perhaps they need to look inward, not outward. Don't blame me for your discomfort.

Also, don't forget about the "ignore function" I don't know how it works because I wouldn't use it personally.


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kajira*
well some don't have that option, unless say 6 of you lovely ladies are going to move near by each member who has problems breast feeding and donate milk to her









Donating milk is becoming more and more common -- check out milkshare.com. And why would anyone need 6 donors to have the option? A lot of milk donors already have all the bloodwork done that a milk bank would require, and if not, the recipient can always request that testing be done(if Ins doesn't cover, as the recipient you'd need to reemburse for this though, so it may or may not be an option).
I've only received milk from two donors -- one was a milkbank donor and the other had all her testing done during her recent pregnancy. I am happy about the amount of milk my baby got through these donations...because it saved him from otherwise subsisting on 90% formula. I had to pay a meagre cost for storage bags..I would not have been able to afford anything more.

BSD -- banked milk is pasteurized...don't you think even somewhat devitalized milk is better for an infant(especially preemie or immunocompromised) than powdered milk and corn syrup(ie formula)?


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## northern_sunshine (Mar 15, 2006)

I have avoided posting on this post like the plague. In general I avoid this forum as well. Why? Well, it's not because I don't love MDC, I truly do, I've learned so much. When I found out I was pregnant with #2 I went searching for something different, something better and for the most part I have found it here.

My 1st DD was Bf'd a week. Yep, scandelously only a week. When I had her, I knew nothing of breastfeeding. I knew -ONE- girl who BF'd and she only tried it on a dare and ended up being one of those people who can just put a baby to her boob and is off to the races. I had never heard of LLL, and what is an LC? All I had for support was nurses in the hospital trying to shove half my DD size breast into my newborns mouth, my poor gram who produced no milk and my mother nearly died, my mom who had FF'd us and my poor DH who wouldn't know a good latch from his ear. I tried and I failed miserably and was to the point where I was so depressed about it I considered giving my DD to my mother and running away. Did I try? Yes. Did I try my best? I don't know. I do feel happier in the knowledge that I "bottle nursed" her without knowing what it even was. I cherished those quiet times looking into her sweet face and having her look into my eyes with such contentment. Feeling her snuggly baby body cozied up to my chest.

But like they say, when you know better, you do better, right? This time, I wanted to do better. So, scared to death, I came to this forum and told a bit of my story. I was hoping for knowledge. I was hoping for support. I was hoping to hear "Here are some resources. Here is some help and we will do our best to give you support to help things be different." What did I get? I got a lecture of how my family line wouldn't be here if it weren't for nursing. That -anyone- can nurse. I never got any info, I never felt any understanding or support. I vowed to never come back to this board.

I have lurked, from time to time, and picked up some good info from the posts I've skimmed. I've been inspired by some of the mama's who've struggled. But it stings a little every time I see women demonized for using formula, for being called lazy and selfish because they lacked the resources and information that can often truly turn a poor nursing relationship around. I'm one of those women.

The hospital here "promotes" breastfeeding (they give out a bag of books for beginning readers as opposed to a bag of formula), but the nurses aren't knowledgable. The nearest LC? Nearly 2 hours from here. The nearest LLL? The same. I am going to make an effort to get to a couple LLL meetings before the baby is born, when the english Canadian LLL page comes back online so I can get the info again.

Why does having a lack of knowledge and resources make an otherwise open to BFing mom a lazy, selfish and "bad" mama? Does the lack of these things not reflect more on the society we live in than the mama herself? Does villianizing individuals really help?







:


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

ok the blood pumping has gotten way out of control. I've pumped a half ounce of straight blood on more than one occasion- strange thing? it didn't hurt. I've talked to LCs and they can't figure it out. My best educated guess is that my nipple is bleeding internally because of having the suction on the pump turned up too high. I pump, 1/2 oz or so comes out, then pure milk comes out afterwards. It doesn't hurt, though my nipple feels a little more tender than usual. It's much, much more visually/emotionally disturbing than it is phsyically, and frankly it sounds a lot more gross than it is. I simply stop pumping, wash the all the parts, and continue because the milk that comes after is perfectly fine with no blood. It's happened, oh, five times or so- grouped together in two separate episodes months apart. I don't think anyone said eight ounces. YUCK. I don't know if that's even possible physically.

anyways, I don't know why what I said got taken as badly as possible. I'm the one who said no one should be shamed- including mothers who FF by choice. Hell, I have so many friends and family that do so!! I am not one of those people who goes around questioning them. I only provide info and support to those who show an interest. But since someone brought up the idea that sexual abuse history is the cause of choosing to FF, yes, I agree that does happen, and I believe it's everyone's prerogative to not bf for that reason too. Or whatever reason. I never, ever used the word selfish when describing my friends actions who wanted to drink so didn't bf- funny how all I did was simply describe the facts of what led to her choice and everyone assumes I'm judging her and calling her selfish. I wasn't. I'm still friends with her. I LIKE HER!! even though she FF by choice with a baby whose medical condition could have been prevented by BF'ing. ok?

and no, not only EP'ing moms implied that EP'ing took away from attachment, and while I don't wish to invalidate their feelings, I wonder if there's a different feeling when you just EP and don't experience bf'ing failure (like knowing from day 1 your baby will never bf). I have no failure/rejection issues so that's a different scene I think.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Excellent post, Pen.


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## au lait (Jul 24, 2006)

I know this was a while back in the thread, but I MUST speak to the milk bank issue. It has been grating on my mind the last day. I often see milk banks reccomended, and the only flaw to them pointed out is the cost. Ok, here is my issue.

(Now please, keep in mind I'm not saying formula is better, I'm anti-bovine breastmilk for anything but calves, and soy formula is even scarier and it's not vegan anyway. I'm just pointing out my issue with "Well do you have a milkbank nearby?")

Ok... my children get 100% organic and vegan breastmilk. I consume no animal by-products, I only eat organic and as GMO-free as possible, I only put pure, organic, and chemical-free things on my skin. This is very important to us. A milk bank is NOT acceptable to me. I would honestly rather feed my baby organic grass-fed bovine formula, than breastmilk from a mama who consumed flesh. Not to mention chemicals in her milk via make-up, hair dye, lotion, clorinated water, etc. There is also the smoking issue, eating too much sugar, etc, etc.

I do not appreciate the idea that anitbodies are a trump card. I'm not knocking them. I am very thankful that my children have and are recieving years of them, however an excellent nutritional base will ALWAYS be most important to us.

So breastmilk at any cost via a milk bank. Um... no.

And please do no "Oh really, well what if??". I'm not an idiot, I'm aware of all the instances that would make me eat my words.

Edit: BTW, as far as severe allergies go, how can a milk bank guarantee you that your milk is dairy/peanut/corn/etc.-free?


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

What always happens with these threads is, someone posts this intelligent, thoughtful question to the community and in response, she is responded by a few grateful moms. Moms who made the RIGHT choice (for them!) not to nurse (for a myriad of valid reasons) but they've felt persecuted here by the judgemental ones amongst us.
Then, the community flips out.

I think the problem is, AP attracts, along with reasonable, caring people, also those whom are hell-bent on martyrdom. The latter have apparently sacrificed more than they could afford to give, so it _infuriates_ them that others, followers of the same doctrine, are not also willing to destroy themselves for the cause.

I see people saying things like "MOST FFers have no good excuse." Or those who couldn't nurse for REAL reasons are in the MINORITY." You know what that is? Total Crap. It's especially disturbing that the self-righteous lot here would condemn sister readers. I mean, isn't it reasonable to assume that FFers at MDC are making informed choices in the feeding of their children? So what if you don't understand _why_? What business is it of yours?

I respect feeding choices of mothers here. I think it's ridiculous that anyone would demand to know _the whole story_ before being kind about it! Think about that for a moment. Why do you require justification? That's really personal for many of us. You don't want people coming down on you for your choices? Don't do the EXACT same thing to strangers.


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## dharmama (Dec 29, 2002)

northern_sunshine ~ i'm so sorry you had that experiece at mdc. i'm always a little conflicted wheb i want to recommend mdc to a friend. it has been an incredible resource for me but there are definitely some people who seem so hardened and insensitive...it's like they can't get past their AP/NFL agenda to actually listen to what a person is saying.









i hope you have found a due date club. both of my DDCs have been incredibly supportive. it seems to me that when we form a group...even online...and get to know each other better, people are much less judgmental and much more compassionate.


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## mrsfatty (Dec 21, 2004)

I haven't read all the posts yet...

I decided that BREASTMILK at any cost was important for our family.

After a severe battle with latch and other medical issues my son had...I just resolved to exclusively pump. He's never had a drop of formula (only recently has had SOME whole milk)--but I'm still pumping for him...and he's almost 14 months old now...


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *au lait*
I would honestly rather feed my baby organic grass-fed bovine formula, than breastmilk from a mama who consumed flesh.

Do you have your own cow and pasture? I mean, I give my ds a raw organic cow milk based formula...but they are not purely grass fed...just seems like a tall order(like even more difficult than procuring vegan donor milk) unless you personally own and care for such animals.


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## au lait (Jul 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twins10705*
Do you have your own cow and pasture? I mean, I give my ds a raw organic cow milk based formula...but they are not purely grass fed...just seems like a tall order(like even more difficult than procuring vegan donor milk) unless you personally own and care for such animals.









Here is an answer to your seemingly rhetorical question:

Um, why would a vegan have a cow??? And yes I have pasture. I happen to live on an off-the-grid homestead. So, yeah, I could buy a cow, but I wouldn't. In such an instance I would purchase a goat to feed the baby.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boston*
What always happens with these threads is, someone posts this intelligent, thoughtful question to the community and in response, she is responded by a few grateful moms. Moms who made the RIGHT choice (for them!) not to nurse (for a myriad of valid reasons) but they've felt persecuted here by the judgemental ones amongst us.
Then, the community flips out.

I think the problem is, AP attracts, along with reasonable, caring people, also those whom are hell-bent on martyrdom. The latter have apparently sacrificed more than they could afford to give, so it _infuriates_ them that others, followers of the same doctrine, are not also willing to destroy themselves for the cause.

I see people saying things like "MOST FFers have no good excuse." Or those who couldn't nurse for REAL reasons are in the MINORITY." You know what that is? Total Crap. It's especially disturbing that the self-righteous lot here would condemn sister readers. I mean, isn't it reasonable to assume that FFers at MDC are making informed choices in the feeding of their children? So what if you don't understand _why_? What business is it of yours?

I respect feeding choices of mothers here. I think it's ridiculous that anyone would demand to know _the whole story_ before being kind about it! Think about that for a moment. Why do you require justification? That's really personal for many of us. You don't want people coming down on you for your choices? Don't do the EXACT same thing to strangers.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrsfatty*
I haven't read all the posts yet...

I decided that BREASTMILK at any cost was important for our family.

After a severe battle with latch and other medical issues my son had...I just resolved to exclusively pump. He's never had a drop of formula (only recently has had SOME whole milk)--but I'm still pumping for him...and he's almost 14 months old now...

Congratulations on your decision and ability to make that happen.

I would have loved to exclusively pump for my two kids who didn't nurse. I did pump for four months, but was unable to continue.


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## operamommy (Nov 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boston*
What always happens with these threads is, someone posts this intelligent, thoughtful question to the community and in response, she is responded by a few grateful moms. Moms who made the RIGHT choice (for them!) not to nurse (for a myriad of valid reasons) but they've felt persecuted here by the judgemental ones amongst us.
Then, the community flips out.

I think the problem is, AP attracts, along with reasonable, caring people, also those whom are hell-bent on martyrdom. The latter have apparently sacrificed more than they could afford to give, so it _infuriates_ them that others, followers of the same doctrine, are not also willing to destroy themselves for the cause.

I see people saying things like "MOST FFers have no good excuse." Or those who couldn't nurse for REAL reasons are in the MINORITY." You know what that is? Total Crap. It's especially disturbing that the self-righteous lot here would condemn sister readers. I mean, isn't it reasonable to assume that FFers at MDC are making informed choices in the feeding of their children? So what if you don't understand _why_? What business is it of yours?

I respect feeding choices of mothers here. I think it's ridiculous that anyone would demand to know _the whole story_ before being kind about it! Think about that for a moment. Why do you require justification? That's really personal for many of us. You don't want people coming down on you for your choices? Don't do the EXACT same thing to strangers.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *au lait*
Here is an answer to your seemingly rhetorical question:

Um, why would a vegan have a cow??? And yes I have pasture. I happen to live on an off-the-grid homestead. So, yeah, I could buy a cow, but I wouldn't. In such an instance I would purchase a goat to feed the baby.









Well that's great...even greater that you don't need to buy a cow or goat since you have plenty of your own milk. I live in a 2 bedroom 2nd floor apt, so I couldn't...I think most mother can't(which was sort of my point), but I'm really happy for those who can.


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## weeirishlass (Mar 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaFranklin*
Has anyone actually known someone who refused to breastfeed? Many times it is because they were molested as a very small child.

Wow. Any basis for that claim? As a survivor of molestation, I can assure you that it never effected my choice TO bf. Nor my SIL who was also molested. Of the women I know who chose NOT to bf, none of them were molested. Anecdotal evidence, for sure, but do you have any backup for your assertion?


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Well, in my bf peer support training, we had an entire session on this issue, and how to deal with it. It is very much an issue for some survivors.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
But IRL, many of my friends have tried hard to bf and been unsuccessful. One friend, they took the baby early due to her high bloodpressure, he wouldn't latch, she was up around the clock, waaaaay less sleep than even most mamas of newborns get, nursing, tube feeding him, pumping, recording. She saw lactation consultants and made an appt with Dr. Jack Newman. Her milk dried up, and that was that.


That's pretty much what happened to me minus the tube feedings and lactation consultants. I tried and tried, that's all you can really expect a mama to do right? With DS2 Bfing was a breeze, but he was full term (unlike ds1) and we also got to birth bond.

Quote:

Wow. Any basis for that claim? As a survivor of molestation, I can assure you that it never effected my choice TO bf. Nor my SIL who was also molested. Of the women I know who chose NOT to bf, none of them were molested. Anecdotal evidence, for sure, but do you have any backup for your assertion?
Ditto that, you would think these women wouldn't have sex even if that were the case. Most women I know that don't BF are concerned about their breasts getting saggy, they think breasts are sexual toys and BFing is gross, or they work full time and don't want to try pumping at work.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharlla*

Ditto that, you would think these women wouldn't have sex even if that were the case. Most women I know that don't BF are concerned about their breasts getting saggy, they think breasts are sexual toys and BFing is gross, or they work full time and don't want to try pumping at work.

You can't really determine what triggers another person. Some women have no problem with sex or birth, but have debilitating flashbacks trigger by any breast stimulation. Or vice versa.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa*
Well, in my bf peer support training, we had an entire session on this issue, and how to deal with it. It is very much an issue for some survivors.

I completely agree with you. It isn't an issue for all survivors, but it can definately be for some even if is on a subconscious level.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *weeirishlass*
Wow. Any basis for that claim? As a survivor of molestation, I can assure you that it never effected my choice TO bf. Nor my SIL who was also molested. Of the women I know who chose NOT to bf, none of them were molested. Anecdotal evidence, for sure, but do you have any backup for your assertion?

I personally have worked with many women who were so traumatized by molestation and sexual abuse that centered around their breasts that it was very difficult if not impossible (in their minds at least) for them to breastfeed.

I'd like to publicly apologize to weeirishlass for my earlier snarkiness.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa*
You can't really determine what triggers another person. Some women have no problem with sex or birth, but have debilitating flashbacks trigger by any breast stimulation. Or vice versa.

Oki, I had just never heard that before.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharlla*
Ditto that, you would think these women wouldn't have sex even if that were the case. Most women I know that don't BF are concerned about their breasts getting saggy, they think breasts are sexual toys and BFing is gross, or they work full time and don't want to try pumping at work.

As a sexual abuse surivor, I cannot tell you how demeaning and dismissive it is to be referred to as "these women". Furthermore, I would suggest that until you live it, you accept the word of those who have been through it and have overcome it in one way or another. I'm sorry you have such a shallow circle of friends and acquaintances. Over the years I have worked some incredible women who have overcome challenges to become mothers. Many of them have gone on to breastfeed and some of them haven't. That doesn't make their conquering of abuse any less miraculous or valid.


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

Wow this thread is getting kinda out of hand. Can I just echo a pp and say that it's safe to assume that anyone on MDC who is FF'ing their baby is doing so only because it is absolutely necessary, and they are probably not terribly happy about it to say the least? And if I see another post from someone who never had problems with supply saying that formula is not an option, I'm gonna hurl.

ITA that it's society that needs to be condemned for rampant unnecessary formula use, not mothers who receive no support and no information about bf'ing. But how does one change society - send a public message that breastfeeding isn't just "best" but essential if at all possible - without making some mothers who end up partially or all ff'ing NOT by choice, feel bad in the process? I don't think you can. And frankly, speaking as one of those mothers who feels bad because she had to give her child formula, I am more than willing to accept that guilt if it helps one more mama breastfeed.

In the area I live in, about 80% of mothers breastfeed until at least 3 months. EVERYONE supports bf'ing. Doctors, nurses, midwives, and there are more LC's in this town than you can shake a stick at. If you don't succeed at breastfeeding here, you either have a really serious medical problem or you didn't really want to in the first place. And that's the way it should be everywhere. BUT we also have laws that protect bf'ing mamas right to bf anywhere and everywhere (I haven't heard of a case of a mother being asked to bf somewhere else here in many, many years), we have a healthcare system totally geared to helping mamas breastfeed, we have public health nurses who are actually very helpful when it comes to bf'ing problems, we have pump rental services that are affordable and, most importantly, a CULTURE THAT SUPPORTS BF'ING!!!! I have NIP'd all over the place here and never once even gotten a funny look. It IS against the norm to ff here and that's the way it should be. Now the real question is, how do you make the rest of the world be like the urban west coast of Canada?


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
As a sexual abuse surivor, I cannot tell you how demeaning and dismissive it is to be referred to as "these women". Furthermore, I would suggest that until you live it, you accept the word of those who have been through it and have overcome it in one way or another. I'm sorry you have such a shallow circle of friends and acquaintances. Over the years I have worked some incredible women who have overcome challenges to become mothers. Many of them have gone on to breastfeed and some of them haven't. That doesn't make their conquering of abuse any less miraculous or valid.


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

Pen, I love you, be my sister









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pen*
What should be done? Be Positive. Breastfeed.

I think that the formula option should be ignored.
I think breastfeeding should be promoted as THE way a baby is fed.











Quote:

If women weren't sex objects and kept in our place, I don't think we'd be having any trouble breastfeeding. How not to be a sex object? how not to have our place dictated by someone else? Other than doing what you know is right? I don't know.
It's often a woman's choice to become a sex object. Just go to any high school or college campus, heck even an office building, and you'll see so many women that you can't tell if they're hookers or not!

Quote:

Just because we are all women, mothers, people, whatever , doesn't mean that we should all agree or support all decision everyone makes.
Exactly, because there are alot of them out there making horrible decisions!

Quote:

If I see someone making a poor choice, I am going to do/say something. I am not going to sit on my hiney.
Yes, all evil needs is for good people to stand by and do/say nothing!


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
Yes, all evil needs is for good people to stand by and do/say nothing!

So is the "evil" here just the ones who choose not to breastfeed/pump or the ones that "claim" they can't or the ones that haven't tried the specified options to make it possible to breastfeed/pump.

Really wondering who sets the standard to make it alright to not breastfeed/pump.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
As a sexual abuse surivor, I cannot tell you how demeaning and dismissive it is to be referred to as "these women". Furthermore, I would suggest that until you live it, you accept the word of those who have been through it and have overcome it in one way or another. I'm sorry you have such a shallow circle of friends and acquaintances. Over the years I have worked some incredible women who have overcome challenges to become mothers. Many of them have gone on to breastfeed and some of them haven't. That doesn't make their conquering of abuse any less miraculous or valid.

I'm a sexual abuse surviver as too. I can of course only speak for myself and others I have know that are as well. I was speaking of those women that claim to not be able to BF because of their past, not sexual abuse survivors in general. I'm sorry that I offended you, that was not my intention. I'm just trying to understand the complexities of the situation.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharlla*
I was speaking of those women that claim to not be able to BF because of their past, not sexual abuse survivors in general.

I understand you are not meaning to be offensive and you are trying to understand.

By continually using the word "claim" it assumes the person is using their past as an excuse.

This is not always the case and I would venture to say it probably isn't even usually the case (not sure about that though).

There are many, many women who have serious effects of their abuse.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharlla*
I was speaking of those women that claim to not be able to BF because of their past, not sexual abuse survivors in general.

But even this--who "claim" to not be able to breastfeed. Do you not see how offensive this is? As if their words and experiences aren't enough to pass some litmus test created by you? Can we not have even the tiniest littlest bit of faith that many women--not all, maybe not even most--but many are making their decisions based on knowledge of the risks, the benefits, and their own limitations? What good does judgemental snarkiness about "these women " do anyone? I know it makes us feel better, superior perhaps. But it doesn't do any good. Activism is ACTION. Sitting around speculating about someones motivation is not activism.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
I understand you are not meaning to be offensive and you are trying to understand.

By continually using the word "claim" it assumes the person is using their past as an excuse.

This is not always the case and I would venture to say it probably isn't even usually the case (not sure about that though).

There are many, many women who have serious effects of their abuse.

Ok, wrong wording on my part. Maybe I should have said "say" instead. Anyhow, I have never heard anyone use that as a reason why not. Although I think most women wouldn't be so forthcoming about their sexual abuse either and would likely just give another reason for not nursing instead.

I guess I'm still damaged as a result of my abuse, I could never date older men, it would totally creep me out, totally make me feel like a 10 year old again. It's true that we all handle our abuse in a different manner.


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
So is the "evil" here just the ones who choose not to breastfeed/pump or the ones that "claim" they can't or the ones that haven't tried the specified options to make it possible to breastfeed/pump.

Really wondering who sets the standard to make it alright to not breastfeed/pump.

Oh give me a break. It's an expression - it just means that usually good people stand around and let bad people win because they don't want to *fight*. But fighting isn't bad, and it's often the only way to protect against bad things. The same applies to everyday life, whether you're talking about true evil, or just ignorance. And who gets to set the standard? Well I think it's already been set, by God, evolution, the universe, whatever you think made us this way - you know, capable of lactation!

And as far as some of the other issues that have been brought up, well if you know ahead of time that you won't give your baby all it deserves, then it's just selfish to have them anyway. It amazes me how tirelessly people will fight to excuse away bad behaivour.

The fact is that minus adoption or a biological medical condition - formula feeding is wrong, bad, unnatural. I know there's a lack of education in this culture. I try to edify everyone I come into contact with (if it's appropriate to their situation) about the dire necessity of BF. Choosing formula after you already know the facts, I think *is* evil!


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
Oh give me a break. It's an expression - it just means that usually good people stand around and let bad people win because they don't want to *fight*. But fighting isn't bad, and it's often the only way to protect against bad things. The same applies to everyday life, whether you're talking about true evil, or just ignorance. And who gets to set the standard? Well I think it's already been set, by God, evolution, the universe, whatever you think made us this way - you know, capable of lactation!

And who decides that they are truly incapable of lactation or if they just made it up.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
And as far as some of the other issues that have been brought up, well if you know ahead of time that you won't give your baby all it deserves, then it's just selfish to have them anyway. It amazes me how tirelessly people will fight to excuse away bad behaivour.

Wow....that is so off-base it isn't even funny. So what happens if our God given ability to nurse is eliminated by a birth defect the baby has? What if mama has to go on medication to control a condition that was the result of having her baby?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
The fact is that minus adoption or a biological medical condition - formula feeding is wrong, bad, unnatural. I know there's a lack of education in this culture. I try to edify everyone I come into contact with (if it's appropriate to their situation) about the dire necessity of BF. Choosing formula after you already know the facts, I think *is* evil!

So you aren't pro-breastfeeding at all costs....just the ones you deem.

I think it is more evil to downplay a person's situation when you may not know all the facts. It is offensive to women who must endure the judgement from people who could help if they changed their tactics. Offending people won't make them see the light.


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## Godiva (Sep 5, 2005)

I saw a mama on here asking for advice on formula. She got questioned as to why she wasn't breastfeeding. Turns out she had breast cancer and needed chemo. What a selfish choice that was. Denying her child their "birthright to nurse" because she had to save her own life. (I'm being quite sarcastic btw, although sadly it seems as though some here would say this and truly mean it)

Why did this mama have to justify herself? Why did everyone need to know her diagnosis before it was allowed for her not to breastfeed? Why couldn't they assume it wasn't possible for her to breastfeed. She wasn't seeking breastfeeding advice, why bring it up?


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## weeirishlass (Mar 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
And as far as some of the other issues that have been brought up, well if you know ahead of time that you won't give your baby all it deserves, then it's just selfish to have them anyway. It amazes me how tirelessly people will fight to excuse away bad behaivour.

Oh wow, so you think you should be in charge of telling mothers who can't bf that they should also never be able to experience the joy of motherhood? A breastcancer survivor should not be able to have children because she "won't give [her] baby all it deserves"? What makes you think that is your choice to make? Are you really that harsh, or is your post unneccesarily so because you are anonymous on a message board?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
The fact is that minus adoption or a biological medical condition - formula feeding is wrong, bad, unnatural. I know there's a lack of education in this culture. I try to edify everyone I come into contact with (if it's appropriate to their situation) about the dire necessity of BF. Choosing formula after you already know the facts, I think *is* evil!

And here you are contradicting yourself. Up above you said if someone can't bf, they shouldn't have children. But here you are now *allowing* them to reproduce?

Please think of how you sound. There are women behind these keyboards. Who are you to tell them that they are "evil"? Judge not lest ye be judged and all that. Who are you to decide on another's situation?


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bailey228*
She wasn't seeking breastfeeding advice, why bring it up?

This kind of thing happens all the time around here. I saw a thread the other day where a mama of a 10 month old AND 1 month old triplets was asking a formula question. She was clearly NOT asking for breastfeeding advice, yet people jumped all over her about not nursing. She said very clearly that for her own mental health she could NOT nurse at this point in time, and some just would not leave it alone.

It's so disrespectful.


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## weeirishlass (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks to all for this post. It's provided a lot for me to think about. Further introspection is needed.


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## kalirush (Jun 14, 2005)

Quote:

Oh give me a break. It's an expression - it just means that usually good people stand around and let bad people win because they don't want to *fight*. But fighting isn't bad, and it's often the only way to protect against bad things.
The thing is, this "fight" isn't a fight against other mothers. It's a fight against a system that doesn't believe in the power of women's bodies, a culture that is ashamed of what is natural and healthy, and the lack of real information from two generations of lost women, separated from the breastfeeding knowledge of their foremothers.

The mother sitting there giving her child formula (regardless of why she's doing it) isn't the one to argue with.

In the words of Bill and Ted, be excellent to each other, y'all. Be peaceful. Be gentle. Teach other mamas- don't condemn them. There's NO POINT to it. Do something useful and positive with that energy instead.

Julia


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## mama-a-llama (Feb 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pen*
If women weren't sex objects and kept in our place, I don't think we'd be having any trouble breastfeeding.

What does being a sex object have anything to do with low supply? Or having a baby with a birth defect?

This isn't what annettemarie was talking about with this quote, but I think it also applies to bfing problems:

Quote:

I would suggest that until you live it, you accept the word of those who have been through it and have overcome it in one way or another.


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## LeosMama (Sep 6, 2005)

I guess everyone is different.

My mental health won't let me formula feed an infant. But I did let my milk dry up at 16 months. I'm not sure I will ever forgive myself for that, for letting my milk stop b/c of the stress of pumping while at work and pumping while away for a week at a time on business (field work with many other people, it made it very complicated and difficult). I was battling with my supply so much and having a hard time keeping ds interested enough when I was home to keep my supply going...I just let it go. I had no support by then, dh didn't know what to say to me and we had moved far away from my friends and lactation support. The local LLL doesn't offer much support for working moms.

But that was 16 months, not a newborn or an infant. He was eating a full complement of solids by then. Ack! Reading this, trying to justify it. I can't express how guilty I feel. If I had just pumped that one week when I was away, I would have kept _some_ milk. When I got back, I kept nursing him, but with no milk. He's about 30 months now and is just now deciding to stop nursing on his own (he's been getting colostrum for a couple of months).

I have learned that my long term mental health is best protected by my nursing as long as possible. I will nurse the next one much longer. I hope that my work situation will be better. I hope that this next one will be a better nurser than my first.

We worked through so many issues in the first six months. My mental health was pretty tenuous for a while. But every time I thought of having to give him formula I would start to panic. He did get formula as a baby, when he was four weeks old and my milk was totally gone, he got formula while I relactated. It took me about four days of round the clock pumping to bring it back and phase out the formula.

We worked so hard, we went through so much pain and stress to make breastfeeding work. We saw a speech language pathologist, two lactation consultants, and two pediatricians to figure it all out. He was nearly 6 months old when we were directly on the breast with no pumping and no gadgets.

When my lactation consultant would say something to me about giving up, I would say "What would I give him instead, formula?" I may as well give him Karo syrup and Flinstones vitamins.

Please don't tell me it wasn't worth it. Please don't tell me I should have stopped at 4 weeks when my milk went away. Please don't tell me I should have given him formula for my own peace of mind.

Please tell me I did the right thing in working so hard. In suffering so much to give my child normal nutrition. Please tell me I'm strong and courageous, but don't tell me I'm superwoman. I'm not superwoman, I'm a dedicated mother.

Only a couple of times did people suggest I give up. And each of those times it was like a slap in the face. I felt like they were telling me that what I was doing was unimportant. That it was just the same to give formula, so how stupid and martyrous was I being by working so hard to get to breastfeeding? Talk about disrespectful! I couldn't handle any suggestion from anybody that I shouldn't be doing this. It made me so angry to hear women say "Oh, I tried for a week, but it hurt, so we went to the bottle." PAIN? DO YOU KNOW PAIN? I KNOW PAIN! And PAIN isn't going to induce me to give my baby that CRAP! I know weeks of unending pain, of physical and mental exhaustion, of desperation.

I needed to be fanatic, to be zealous to hold on and keep at it.

It was when I had no support, no outside influence of breastfeeding zealousness that I weakened and gave up. If I had had the support when my son was 16 months that I had when he was a newborn, I would have had the strength to keep going. The whispers from people that are sweet and non-judgemental, that just say "Formula is fine, you're still a good mom" led me to give up at 16 months. If there had been more of those than the bf supportive people I would have given up at 4 weeks.

The culture of judgement and encouragement that I was immersed in was so strong that I couldn't let myself stop. I fed on their strength, passion, and zealotry and it kept me going. I imagined the shame of giving up, of giving him formula. Of being less of a mother than these other women. Of denying my child his right of basic nutrition.

I know there's a lot in this post, it's a mish-mash, but that's how I feel when I look back on my breastfeeding experience.


----------



## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:

Do you really think that breastfeeding is SO important that it is worth enduring *weeks and months* of pain and frustration, exhaustion, and/or compromising one's mental health?
weeks and months of pain and fustration vs a lifetime of illness and pain for my child, the human being I would do absolutely anything at all for?

Of course I think it is that important. After all, once I stop BFing I return to normal (with my reduced odds of getting breast cancer and leaving her motherless). She is left with the body that grew on my milk - for the rest of her life.

(now I have to read 14 pages)


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe*
weeks and months of pain and fustration vs a lifetime of illness and pain for my child, the human being I would do absolutely anything at all for?

I agree that breastmilk gives the child a great start and strength to their immune system, but to suggest that formula will set them up for a life of illness and pain it stretching a bit.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Maybe the question needs to be rephrased. Not would *you* endure weeks and months of whatever the original question was, but do you feel that all women, regardless of who they are and what's going on in their lives, should undergo weeks and months of pain and frustration at the expense of their own mental health. Heaven knows, I had a bunch of my own issues and still breastfed for seven and a half years straight (my youngest seems to have weaned) but I have huge problems taking my particulars and universally applying them to others, and then judging others when they don't "go as far as I did" to do what I believe to be best. My anger is at the formula companies, the medical professions, the government. For the most part, it's not at other women. Although a few women here on this thread have certainly sent my blood pressure shooting up, LOL!


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:

If I see someone making a poor choice, I am going to do/say something. I am not going to sit on my hiney. I am used to be out of the mainstream. I, too, feel the need to be accepted but there are limits. I would not want to be in the mainstream of this crowd. And I am not afraid to offend for a good cause.
Pen~ Making a poor choice? Again, by who's judgment? Because YOU have deemed a choice "poor" according to your standards? Seems pretty righteous to me. What this reeks of to me is "busy-bodiness". Someone who is so dissatified with her own life that she focuses her efforts on the lives of others to find fault with, to criticise, and I suppose to convert. Unless you have intimate knowledge of a women's life, circumstances, and history you have absolutely no right, and even then you don't have any right unless invited to comment, to harrass, judge, or belittle a mother's decision's for her own child who SHE knows, and ONLY she knows best.

Your opinion, doesn't bother me. It's your condescending, holier-than-thou attitude that irritates me to no end.

Ignore button. Not a chance.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

So, it's ok to spank/beat/neglect/abuse as long as you breastfeed. yee haa!


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

weeirishlass: You missunderstand. You are so focused on me "deciding" things for others. I'm simply stating my views on an *issue* not an individual. As far as I know, I never directed my replies at any woman specifically. I'm addressing some of the issues brought up here. I agree that the formula companies, socitey, the medical associations, the government are all flawed on this issue. But the fact is - women are buying the formula. And that is not the fault of anyone but the person swiping their card! Yes, things need to change in a lot of areas, but it has to start with consumers. Mothers need to stop buying period.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Maybe the question needs to be rephrased. Not would *you* endure weeks and months of whatever the original question was, but do you feel that all women, regardless of who they are and what's going on in their lives, should undergo weeks and months of pain and frustration at the expense of their own mental health.

Yes. But I don't believe it has to be at the expense of the mother's mental health. That's an excuse. Getting some major help (lactation and mental) is vital. I know it's possible to work through the problems w/out becoming so depressed (or insert whatever word you prefer here) that you "handicap" yourself emotionally.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
Yes. But I don't believe it has to be at the expense of the mother's mental health. That's an excuse. Getting some major help (lactation and mental) is vital. I know it's possible to work through the problems w/out becoming so depressed (or insert whatever word you prefer here) that you "handicap" yourself emotionally.

In your opinion. Not everyone is able to suck it up and move on. You should praise God that you yourself have never been to that point. But a little empathy goes a long way. Judgement doesn't.


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## Kajira (May 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twins10705*
Donating milk is becoming more and more common -- check out milkshare.com. And why would anyone need 6 donors to have the option? A lot of milk donors already have all the bloodwork done that a milk bank would require, and if not, the recipient can always request that testing be done(if Ins doesn't cover, as the recipient you'd need to reemburse for this though, so it may or may not be an option).
I've only received milk from two donors -- one was a milkbank donor and the other had all her testing done during her recent pregnancy. I am happy about the amount of milk my baby got through these donations...because it saved him from otherwise subsisting on 90% formula. I had to pay a meagre cost for storage bags..I would not have been able to afford anything more.
*
BSD -- banked milk is pasteurized...don't you think even somewhat devitalized milk is better for an infant(especially preemie or immunocompromised) than powdered milk and corn syrup(ie formula*)?


I have no idea how many donors it takes fully admitting my ignorance on that, hence my 6 comment, it's just a random number I threw out.
My point really is that not everyone
a) lives close to ppl who are willing to donate
b) not all women are willing to use someone elses breast milk, I can think of very few women I'd be willing to use theirs
c) even knows about the option of donated milk

On the bold, when did I say yay forumla?
My point is, it's not always an option to have donated bm, with my son I was the only one of my friends who breastfeed over 4-6 weeks, I knew no one else who I could get milk from, and I'm not sure that I would have accepted donated milk anyway had I needed it, I'm just not that trusting of most ppl.
But then I personally know ppl who've been flamed on here, and I sent them here so truly it was my fault, I told them how wonderful MDC they asked questions only to be beaten down







when all they wanted to do want learn







now if I come across someone I buy them books and send them to Kellymom.

It saddens me so to see women that are not willing to place their health are risk considered "evil".
How dare anyone say that a women does not deserve to be a mother because they can not breastfeed







how self righteous are you to deem whom should be a mother







:
Seriously so many on here have done so much out of self admitted guilt at not being the perfect bf-ing mommy or on the flip side are so filled with pride at being the prefect bf-ing mommy that they use any excuse to rip those who have failed.
It makes me laugh when ppl say they offend for their cause, yup, you insult the very ppl who are trying their best, you inslut the same ppl who you want to support your cause, and further push them away and wonder why so many don't even want to discuss bf-ing and get defensive of ff from get go, because the FEW are so rabid, insult and offend their way thru the ff world, whose with a soft touch are judged harshly.
Thanks alot, for doing nothing, didn't your mother's teach you, catch more flies with honey than vinegar??


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kajira*
I have no idea how many donors it takes fully admitting my ignorance on that, hence my 6 comment, it's just a random number I threw out.
My point really is that not everyone
a) lives close to ppl who are willing to donate
b) not all women are willing to use someone elses breast milk, I can think of very few women I'd be willing to use theirs
c) even knows about the option of donated milk

My point was really that we need to get the word out...that donor milk is now a doable option for most moms who aren't able to produce enough milk. I think it's an optimistic point.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kajira*
On the bold, when did I say yay forumla?

That was directed toward "BSD".


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
... But the fact is - women are buying the formula. And that is not the fault of anyone but the person swiping their card! Yes, things need to change in a lot of areas, but it has to start with consumers. Mothers need to stop buying period....

I'll keep in mind, that heaven forbid, if I ever have breastfeeding difficulties so severe I can't breastfeed, that it is morally better to *not* buy formula and thereby let my baby starve.








"Milk banks are available" you say. Yeah. They are. And with the amount my child eats, his daily breastmilk cost would be more than my total family income. Yeah, that is soooo feasible.


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## Pen (Jul 23, 2005)

Someone asked what does being a sex object have to do with low supply? That's not what I said, first off. Breastfeeding problems are related to the demeaning of women and women's issues.

Let's think bigger.

If woman were treated as equals, breasts wouldn't be hidden and it would be easier to breastfeed. In the event there was a true low supply problem there would be a nursing mom around the corner able to help. A great number of moms would be nursing because there would be no fear of reprimand.

So many of you are nitpicking on small, individual problems. Honestly, I don't know any of you and your problems don't affect me like they do you. It is the collection of your problems that affects me. And it is the collection of problems I'm interested in.

I said that if I saw something that I didn't agree with, I would do or say something. I didn't say I would necessarily confront the person - but perhaps I would. Perhaps I would reflect on what I saw or talk to a store manager about it, or write a letter.

If someone wants to blast me for doing something about something I have an opinion on, go ahead. You are taking a stance. Hah! And doing something about it. Hah!

One can't say "you're being judgmental" without being judgmental herself. What is the problem with judging? Do you realize that everything you do depends on your judging? Even our laws are based on opinion.

And I wouldn't want to stop you from having and stating your opinion, your judgment. Hum?&#8230;something about I may not agree with a word you are saying but I'll defend your right to say it.

What happens if you want to vote for a presidential candidate? Do you not go and vote, in case the other guy feels bad about losing? Well, that's what I do for football games.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pen*
One can't say "you're being judgmental" without being judgmental herself. What is the problem with judging? Do you realize that everything you do depends on your judging? Even our laws are based on opinion.

And I wouldn't want to stop you from having and stating your opinion, your judgment. Hum?&#8230;something about I may not agree with a word you are saying but I'll defend your right to say it.

What happens if you want to vote for a presidential candidate? Do you not go and vote, in case the other guy feels bad about losing? Well, that's what I do for football games.

Judging, unless it is accompanied by activism, is pointless. The only thing it serves to do is to make ourselves feel better at the expense of others. What I have seen a lot of in this thread is pointless judgement. Pointing at individual women and telling them that their excuses aren't good enough, they shouldn't have babies if they aren't willing to feed them the right way, the choices they've made are going to kill their babies and contribute to global warming. Pointless.

Judging when accompanied by action is powerful. It's not pointing fingers at individual women, but rather at a system that is flawed at its best and corrupt at its worse. If one is addressing an indivdual, it is done with an eye towards helping that mama and baby improve their lives. It's done with love. It's rolling up your sleeves and helping your sisters without heaping guilt on them. It's having the heart of your actions being love and respect for women and babies rather than for a "cause," no matter how beautiful and worthy the cause of breastfeeding might be.

Perhaps you do all this. But that's not how some of these posts are coming across. They are coming across as being filled with pointless judgement. "These women" shouldn't have babies. "These women" are selfish. "These women" have small, nitpicky problems.

"These women's" small and nitpicky problems can make a huge different in their decisions to breastfeed. Pushing them under the rug and calling them "small and nitpicky" isn't activism. It's pointless judgement.

If I am being judgemental by judging you (general you)







it's because I feel that your words and attitudes have a real chance of being detrimental to the cause of lactivism. If I had a whole bunch of people telling me that my words were hurtful and only a handful of people in my Amen corner, I would look at the real possibility that my words were hurtful. Heck, if I had even one person tell me that, I would do some self-examination, because that might be the one person I then missed helping. One person who was so busy listening to my words that she missed my message.

No one said you couldn't have an opinion. No one is stopping you from speaking.

And really, I have no idea what that last bit means. Presidential elections and football games?







:


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## jaye (Mar 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
I know it's possible to work through the problems w/out becoming so depressed (or insert whatever word you prefer here) that you "handicap" yourself emotionally.

Do you know ANYTHING about mental illness, post-partum depression, etc??

work through your problems??

Damn, people - look outside your own experiences a little.







:


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## Boof (Dec 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pen*
That's not what I said.....

There's been SO MUCH of that in this thread.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pen*
Let's think bigger.

If woman were treated as equals, breasts wouldn't be hidden and it would be easier to breastfeed. In the event there was a true low supply problem there would be a nursing mom around the corner able to help. A great number of moms would be nursing because there would be no fear of reprimand.

So many of you are nitpicking on small, individual problems. Honestly, I don't know any of you and your problems don't affect me like they do you. It is the collection of your problems that affects me. And it is the collection of problems I'm interested in.

I said that if I saw something that I didn't agree with, I would do or say something. I didn't say I would necessarily confront the person - but perhaps I would. Perhaps I would reflect on what I saw or talk to a store manager about it, or write a letter.

If someone wants to blast me for doing something about something I have an opinion on, go ahead. You are taking a stance. Hah! And doing something about it. Hah!

One can't say "you're being judgmental" without being judgmental herself. What is the problem with judging? Do you realize that everything you do depends on your judging? Even our laws are based on opinion.

And I wouldn't want to stop you from having and stating your opinion, your judgment. Hum?&#8230;something about I may not agree with a word you are saying but I'll defend your right to say it.

What happens if you want to vote for a presidential candidate? Do you not go and vote, in case the other guy feels bad about losing? Well, that's what I do for football games.

YES! THANK YOU!!!

Stop nitpicking! Stop focusing on the extreme cases of "so you dont think the double mastectomy patient should use formula! UR t3h 3v0l!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111oneoneone"

No one is saying that. No one in this thread has said that, so FFS stop reading that into it.

Let's shift the conversation.

It' a problem with society in general. We must treat the disease and stop focusing on the symptom. However, while doing the former, we can do the latter. Society is made up of individuals. We need to turn the tide. Help other mothers, and moms to be begin to value breastfeeding, The goal should be to make formula unnecessary except in extreme cases.

For those looking to pounce on something: I DID NOT say outlaw it unless by prescription. I said make it unnecessary. How? With education, support, favorable laws not just for NIP but maternity leave, pump breaks and rooms, etc etc etc and with most moms breastfeeding women could help each other through problem times with donated milk.

Let's figure out what utopia is then pursue it!


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## Boof (Dec 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
.....Judging when accompanied by action is powerful. It's not pointing fingers at individual women, but rather at a system that is flawed at its best and corrupt at its worse. If one is addressing an indivdual, it is done with an eye towards helping that mama and baby improve their lives. It's done with love. It's rolling up your sleeves and helping your sisters without heaping guilt on them. It's having the heart of your actions being love and respect for women and babies rather than for a "cause," no matter how beautiful and worthy the cause of breastfeeding might be.

We are in total agreement on this part. Here is where we disagree:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
If I am being judgemental by judging you (general you)







it's because I feel that your words and attitudes have a real chance of being detrimental to the cause of lactivism.

Aren't we talking amongst our lactivist selves? Why can't we have a place to vent a la that other thread in the lactivism section that's getting so much grief? Why can't we vent and have a common shorthand and not have to be so PC at all times? It's not like she's confronting women while in her lactivist uniform and reading them the riot act for bottle feeding. She's complaining amongst people who should understand her frustration. It's like when you have an illness- the fever is just a symptom but it'll still make you cranky and complain.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Boof*
Aren't we talking amongst our lactivist selves? Why can't we have a place to vent a la that other thread in the lactivism section that's getting so much grief? Why can't we vent and have a common shorthand and not have to be so PC at all times? It's not like she's confronting women while in her lactivist uniform and reading them the riot act for bottle feeding. She's complaining amongst people who should understand her frustration. It's like when you have an illness- the fever is just a symptom but it'll still make you cranky and complain.

Well, I guess when I hear someone speaking in such us vs them terms, I don't know for sure if we're just complaining among peers or if this is the way that person is presenting themselves to the general public. Maybe I made an assumption. I'm certainly open to that. I still don't find it particularly productive, so I don't "get" it, I guess.


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## Pinoikoi (Oct 30, 2003)

ok, I read to page 5, and stopped.

I hear a lot of mamas on this board, and this thread. I was a mama with not enough info. I gave up on bfing my eldest bio son at 6 weeks, when we came to hurdle that COULD have been overcome had I any $ for a good pump, and some better advice. But I didn't have either of those things.

My second bio son never latched correctly. I ep'ed him for a few months, and then realized I wasn't getting ANY sleep, so I supplemented for him. But I continued to pump for him until he was about 7 months old.

My next son was adopted. I tried to relactate for him. I found out I was pregnant, and placenta previa. I was told Not to attempt to relactate, or lose my pregnancy. He was formula fed until my milk came in.

My youngest son is still nursing at 16 months. My adopted son has had breastmilk in a bottle most of his life. FINALLY! Breastfeeding success!

Two things I want readers to come away with from this.. one, I learned a lot from the mothering board about nursing. For that I am grateful. For all the shame I felt because of this board- what a waste. I have always felt that mothering is here to inform and advise- but to shame me? What good came from that?

And for the second thing- it is an interesting question that the OP asks. As an adoptive parent, I have to say that there are so MANY issues that parents have to deal with when a child is not biological that shame for ff should be the last on the list. Do I feel that adoptive children CAN have the same access to bm that other children have? Sure- otherwise why would I have tried to bf my adopted child? And there are many adoptive parents who DO NOT come to the breastfeeding forum because of the shame that is placed on ffing parents.

I adopted an unwanted child. It breaks my heart, but it is true. Because I now realize that even though there are parents who wait YEARS to adopt a baby, there are babies that are UNWANTED. Contrary to some others' opinions, I feel it is a child's birthright to have a loving family- and that is the most important thing to me.

I support breastfeeding. I DO NOT support shaming mothers that cannot for whatever reason. What kind of society are WE building when shame is used as a tool?


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## au lait (Jul 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twins10705*
Well that's great...even greater that you don't need to buy a cow or goat since you have plenty of your own milk. I live in a 2 bedroom 2nd floor apt, so I couldn't...I think most mother can't(which was sort of my point), but I'm really happy for those who can.

Well obviously!!! I was speaking for myself. Really, you don't think I'm saying that all mothers who do not have breastfeeding sucess should put a goat on the balcony/backyard/roof?! I'm just simply pointing out a reason besides cost, which another momma (like myself, surely I'm not that odd! There must be others







) would not be interested in a milk bank is she could not meet her baby/ies needs.


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## Kajira (May 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Boof*
*Aren't we talking amongst our lactivist selves? Why can't we have a place to vent a la that other thread in the lactivism section that's getting so much grief? Why can't we vent and have a common shorthand and not have to be so PC at all times?* It's not like she's confronting women while in her lactivist uniform and reading them the riot act for bottle feeding. She's complaining amongst people who should understand her frustration. It's like when you have an illness- the fever is just a symptom but it'll still make you cranky and complain.


No this convo is not limited to lactavist, want to know why?
MDC has set it self up as the premier forum dealing with breastfeeding, non vax-ing, gentle parenting and cloth diapering.
Ppl direct MANY pregnant moms here, MDC is used and touted on the net on 90+% of the parenting sites I've seen, as a library of sorts, where you go for good information.
During the VS nurse in someone linked to a newspaper forum, where someone had posted inviting others to come to MDC and check out the hippies.







:
Do not for one moment forget that MDC is not a private board with limited membership, anyone can view many of the forums here and we hold a member ship of over 50 thousand and altho many do not post, many read, not only that but they direct others to read our views, many times I've been directed here by non MDC members at other sites I am a member at.

The comments of some, will bite some of us in the ass, when it's linked, quoted or lord forbid copied and pasted, as seeee what they think of ppl who use formula?!?!?!
This is the internet unless Cynthia decides to password protect this forum and place restrictions on it, nothing we say here is just for us, Google makes sure of that


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Great point, Kajira.


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## Averys_mom (Sep 27, 2004)

I EP'd for my daughter for 15 mos. It was the most difficult, exausting thing I have ever done, but it was worth every minute of extreme stress. My mental state would have been worse had I switched to formula.

The assumption is if you have breatfeeding difficulties, the only option is formula. Very few women cannot lactate and provide at least some breastmilk for their babies.

Heck, even the woman from FeedMyBaby.com gave both her babies breastmilk for at least a year -- and she had a double masectomy.

Where there's a will, there's a way.

When it comes to a woman's mental state, it has been said a mother must do what's best for her. I say, a mother must do what's best for her baby. About 99% of the time, that means giving breastmilk any way she can because the benefits of it last for a lifetime. Obviously if the breastfeeding issue is making her loose her mind to the point it's making her unfit, then obviously there are other issues than just the breastfeeding...

Jody
EP'd for Avery (08/28/03)
Nursing Hayden (06/27/05)


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## roseq (Jul 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crissei*
As someone who has... YES it is totally worth it!

But I try not to judge others when I don't know the full story. I know in my case, luck had a lot to do with my outcome. I mean don't get me wrong, I worked my tail off!









I have to say, I DO judge people (silently) who don't work as hard as hard as they could have, to breastfeed and, then try to use lame excuses.

Ditto.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Boongirl, as I read it Kajira wasn't trying to define MDC, she just wanted to remind us that when we put down people (FF'ers by choice, etc.) because we think it's "our space" and we can vent, we are forgetting that many many people come here and read what we write and form an opinion about MDC based on that.

I think you two are in agreement. But maybe *I've* misunderstood!







:

ETA - and I wanted to reinforce your central point which was that *everyone, as long as they follow the UA, is welcome here and should be treated with respect*.


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## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
Oh give me a break. It's an expression - it just means that usually good people stand around and let bad people win because they don't want to *fight*. But fighting isn't bad, and it's often the only way to protect against bad things. The same applies to everyday life, whether you're talking about true evil, or just ignorance. And who gets to set the standard? Well I think it's already been set, by God, evolution, the universe, whatever you think made us this way - you know, capable of lactation!

And as far as some of the other issues that have been brought up, well if you know ahead of time that you won't give your baby all it deserves, then it's just selfish to have them anyway. It amazes me how tirelessly people will fight to excuse away bad behaivour.

The fact is that minus adoption or a biological medical condition - formula feeding is wrong, bad, unnatural. I know there's a lack of education in this culture. I try to edify everyone I come into contact with (if it's appropriate to their situation) about the dire necessity of BF. Choosing formula after you already know the facts, I think *is* evil!

Calling women who ff evil must be where the bad reputation of so-called "boob nazis" comes from. (For the record, I find the term horrifically offensive in many ways, not the least of which is the misuse of the term "nazi"... but dayum, I am starting to see their point!) This really does NOT help further the lactivist movement because people will simply tune you out vs. subjecting themselves to being called EVIL. Don't you think mainstream people lurk and read here, see something like that, and run right back to their mainstream boards?

There are many many areas in which I think the MDC community should be less judgemental. I mean come on, here we are all proponents of gentle discipline and no shaming of our children, yet most people here see no problem whatsoever with public verbal floggings and shaming of other moms if those moms fail to pass whatever arbitrary litmus test is handy. That's not only inconsistent, it's hypocritical.

I can tell you right now that I will try everything under the sun to give my baby breastmilk. But if I pump 8oz of blood, if I HATE my child every time I have to nurse her... I will give her a bottle! It is more important for me to be healthy, sane, and full of love for my child than it is for me to ride off into the sunset on a big high horse with bloody nipples. Maybe she'll have more colds, but she'll be ALIVE.... what is LIFE worth? In a world where it is NOT uncommon for women with PPD to murder their children, you'd think we'd all be more sensitive to creating a situation where a mom goes off the deep end... and feeling like the world considers her EVIL if she can't breastfeed could definitely contribute to that. What, really, does that accomplish?

I believe in providing women with information and education so they can make the best choices for themselves and their babies... I don't believe in judging women arbitrarily or making them feel less than because they chose LOVING their child over sticking out breastfeeding. Or whatever! I am not a god, I cannot possibly know what is going on in that womans life or what she's been through, and I refuse to judge.

But I'm really, really glad of this thread... it is going to help me take a step back whenever that temptation to judge strikes me, as it does, all the time.


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## au lait (Jul 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prettypixels*
In a world where it is NOT uncommon for women with PPD to murder their children, you'd think we'd all be more sensitive to creating a situation where a mom goes off the deep end...


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## Kajira (May 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boongirl*
You are a very new user to be trying to define this place. This is a public forum, one that anyone can join. All you have to do is sign up. Anyone can join. Anyone who wants to can be a part of mdc, whether they breastfeed, eat organic, have many children or one, are married or not, gay or straight, whatever. You can be whomever you want and believe whatever you want and post here. There are rules, however, about posting, the first and foremost is that we have to be nice to each other. So, mamas who do not breastfeed or do vax are supposed to be welcome here in the sense that members are not allowed to break rule #1.
This place is supposed to be supportive and welcoming to all, regardless of who you are. There are topics that are specifically not allowed, such as porn, being pro-spanking, being pro-circ, but parents who do or believe in these things can still find other ways they belong. For beliefs that you may not agree with, such as formula feeding, it is not allowed for you to be running off mamas who have tried and failed, for whatever reason, to nurse their babies or mamas who do not nurse out of choice. It is just not allowed.

Ahhh no I'm not a new user, I'm an old user with a new account with permission from admin








I've infact been a member in total longer than you








I know the rules quite well, I don't need anyone to point me to the UA, but you should read the whole thread and pm some ppl that little clip as quite a few broke it.
altho I am quite amused as we actually for once are on the same page.
Nora'sMama was quite right in what she believed I was trying to get across, we should be cognizant of the fact that, altho this is OUR place, it's not private.

Many of us invite friends and even random mama's we meet at gymboree to MDC, some of the comments in this topic are cold, infact down right repulsive, such as the if you don't breastfeed, don't concieve one.
People are actually saying no matter if you are a danger to yourself or child, breastfeeding trumps all.
As much as I personally can not see myself giving my child formula, I refuse to not place myself in the shoes of those I know who are dangers to others inc their beloved kids when not taking their meds which is not bf-ing safe, I refuse to poo and tish those who have tried everything and are inable to pump more than a couple drops, I refuse to be rude and insensative because I believe that breastmilk is best.
I am a lactavist, I believe that breast is best, but I believe that not every instance can be lumped as bad mothering, because someone did not breastfeed, judging others gets us NO where, being nice and understanding has allowed me to get atleast one friend who never considered breastfeeding to see it as an option, it has a friend who is ttc, looking at pumps and reading up








Thank G_d I didn't tell them they were selfish and look down my nose when they admitted bf-ing was a after thought, see honey gets more than vinegar even if it's organic apple cidar


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## au lait (Jul 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kajira*
Ahhh no I'm not a new user, I'm an old user with a new account with permission from admin








I've infact been a member in total longer than you








I know the rules quite well, I don't need anyone to point me to the UA, but you should read the whole thread and pm some ppl that little clip as quite a few broke it.









:

I've read on MDC for a full year. I'm not sure why I joined for this thread, maybe blame it on the return of my moon, but anyway... I've read MANY posts commenting on low post counts, new memberships, and etc, meanwhile I've observed that a few women here with thousands of posts under their belts, are actually kind of mean and self-righteous.







: Is it just me?

Ok, I'm going to pull my foot out of my mouth and go to bed now...


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## Kajira (May 23, 2006)

LOL au lait I used to have thousands of post too but I was never mean unless you asked for it









It's the net ppl say things here that they would NEVER look someone in the eye and say, as we see in this thread, I do think we need to be more gentle with each other but with strong willed women who are "shareholders" in MDC (meaning long time posters who've invested lots of time here) I believe the snark at new ppl is often a matter of them trying to protect their investment, a safe place for Ap/AFL


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
But the fact is - women are buying the formula. And that is not the fault of anyone but the person swiping their card! Yes, things need to change in a lot of areas, but it has to start with consumers. Mothers need to stop buying period.

Do you realize how harsh that sounds? Do you really not care what the circumstances are surrounding that decision?

If that is the case, I really to feel for the women you encounter who use formula for whatever reason.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Judging, unless it is accompanied by activism, is pointless. The only thing it serves to do is to make ourselves feel better at the expense of others. What I have seen a lot of in this thread is pointless judgement. Pointing at individual women and telling them that their excuses aren't good enough, they shouldn't have babies if they aren't willing to feed them the right way, the choices they've made are going to kill their babies and contribute to global warming. Pointless.

Judging when accompanied by action is powerful. It's not pointing fingers at individual women, but rather at a system that is flawed at its best and corrupt at its worse. If one is addressing an indivdual, it is done with an eye towards helping that mama and baby improve their lives. It's done with love. It's rolling up your sleeves and helping your sisters without heaping guilt on them. It's having the heart of your actions being love and respect for women and babies rather than for a "cause," no matter how beautiful and worthy the cause of breastfeeding might be.

Perhaps you do all this. But that's not how some of these posts are coming across. They are coming across as being filled with pointless judgement. "These women" shouldn't have babies. "These women" are selfish. "These women" have small, nitpicky problems.

"These women's" small and nitpicky problems can make a huge different in their decisions to breastfeed. Pushing them under the rug and calling them "small and nitpicky" isn't activism. It's pointless judgement.

If I am being judgemental by judging you (general you)







it's because I feel that your words and attitudes have a real chance of being detrimental to the cause of lactivism. If I had a whole bunch of people telling me that my words were hurtful and only a handful of people in my Amen corner, I would look at the real possibility that my words were hurtful. Heck, if I had even one person tell me that, I would do some self-examination, because that might be the one person I then missed helping. One person who was so busy listening to my words that she missed my message.

No one said you couldn't have an opinion. No one is stopping you from speaking.

And really, I have no idea what that last bit means. Presidential elections and football games?







:


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
I know it's possible to work through the problems w/out becoming so depressed (or insert whatever word you prefer here) that you "handicap" yourself emotionally.

Honestly, this statement seems to be made completely out of ignorance (meaning lack of experience with said problems) on your part.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alaskanteach*
And there are many adoptive parents who DO NOT come to the breastfeeding forum because of the shame that is placed on ffing parents.

I support breastfeeding. I DO NOT support shaming mothers that cannot for whatever reason. What kind of society are WE building when shame is used as a tool?









:


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kajira*
No this convo is not limited to lactavist, want to know why?
MDC has set it self up as the premier forum dealing with breastfeeding, non vax-ing, gentle parenting and cloth diapering.
Ppl direct MANY pregnant moms here, MDC is used and touted on the net on 90+% of the parenting sites I've seen, as a library of sorts, where you go for good information.
During the VS nurse in someone linked to a newspaper forum, where someone had posted inviting others to come to MDC and check out the hippies.







:
Do not for one moment forget that MDC is not a private board with limited membership, anyone can view many of the forums here and we hold a member ship of over 50 thousand and altho many do not post, many read, not only that but they direct others to read our views, many times I've been directed here by non MDC members at other sites I am a member at.

The comments of some, will bite some of us in the ass, when it's linked, quoted or lord forbid copied and pasted, as seeee what they think of ppl who use formula?!?!?!
This is the internet unless Cynthia decides to password protect this forum and place restrictions on it, nothing we say here is just for us, Google makes sure of that

Very nicely put.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Averys_mom*
I EP'd for my daughter for 15 mos. It was the most difficult, exausting thing I have ever done, but it was worth every minute of extreme stress. My mental state would have been worse had I switched to formula.

The assumption is if you have breatfeeding difficulties, the only option is formula. Very few women cannot lactate and provide at least some breastmilk for their babies.

Heck, even the woman from FeedMyBaby.com gave both her babies breastmilk for at least a year -- and she had a double masectomy.

Where there's a will, there's a way.

When it comes to a woman's mental state, it has been said a mother must do what's best for her. I say, a mother must do what's best for her baby. About 99% of the time, that means giving breastmilk any way she can because the benefits of it last for a lifetime. Obviously if the breastfeeding issue is making her loose her mind to the point it's making her unfit, then obviously there are other issues than just the breastfeeding...

It is best for the baby to have a healthy, happy, functioning mama. If that means breastmilk is not an option, then it is not an option.

It really isn't even a matter of "loosing her mind to the point it's making her unfit." It is a matter being able to function in her daily world and not be stressed which can make all mothers not function to the best of their abilities.


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Boof*
,
Stop nitpicking! Stop focusing on the extreme cases of "so you dont think the double mastectomy patient should use formula! UR t3h 3v0l!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111oneoneone"
.!

You know what? Using t3h l33tsp34k 1n 7h1$ 51tu4t10n 1s d1sr3sp3ctful!!!!!eleventy-one!!!!

Nobody in this whole thread was talking like that - in fact, most people have had exemplary grammar and spelling. What is with all the immature mocking?


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

Regarding the "shouldn't us lactivists have a place to vent without walking on eggshells?" sentiment:

Kajira said:

"No this convo is not limited to lactavist, want to know why?
MDC has set it self up as the premier forum dealing with breastfeeding, non vax-ing, gentle parenting and cloth diapering. Ppl direct MANY pregnant moms here, MDC is used and touted on the net on 90+% of the parenting sites I've seen, as a library of sorts, where you go for good information.

Do not for one moment forget that MDC is not a private board with limited membership, anyone can view many of the forums here and we hold a member ship of over 50 thousand and altho many do not post, many read, not only that but they direct others to read our views.

The comments of some, will bite some of us in the ass, when it's linked, quoted or lord forbid copied and pasted, as seeee what they think of ppl who use formula?!?!?!

...Nothing we say here is just for us, Google makes sure of that."

These are excellent points which should be repeated. Women come here for all sorts of reasons. Some are newly pregnant, some are happily nursing. Some are having problems, and some may be struggling with the aftermath of a bad nursing experience.

I was one of the latter group when I first came to MDC. These days I am completely at peace with what happened, but back then, I had a lot of guilt and sorrow about it, even though I had done the best I could.

Had I encountered lactivism as Annettemarie and others envision it, I would have had a very different experience here and formed a very different opinion of lactivists.

Instead, naive mama that I was, I ventured into a thread in Support&Advocacy and had the nerve to suggest that perhaps demonizing mothers who ff was not particularly helpful.

I got a few words of support, but for the most part, posters similar to a couple of women on this thread told me to a) go to Babycenter if I wanted "validation" for my ignorant, evil feeding choice; b) told me that a baby sucking a plastic nipple would result in stunted emotional growth. Etc.

Certain people can talk all they want about women "being responsible for their own feelings." But can you imagine how this struck someone new to lactivism? And I wasn't ignorant of breastfeeding by any means! My mother bf'd 3 kids, everyone around me nursed. IRL I got nothing but support, hugs, meals, and offers to lend me pumps. None of my friends were lactivists; they simply nursed their kids and helped others in trouble.

But here, among the lactivists, the scorn I encountered left me stunned, hurt, and reluctant to ever come back to MDC. Now, there were mamas here who pm'd me with messages of support, which I appreciated. But frankly, the sneering, downright cruel comments from supposed "lactivists" overshadowed them.

Your words count. Your words here on MDC ARE your lactivism. Yes, we should go out and try to change society. Of course we should. But I don't think some of us realize that what we say right here has the potential to change society as well. If just one woman newly considering breastfeeding reads Annettemarie's wise, gentle words, what effect might that have on her determination to nurse her baby? (Not to ignore all the other wonderful mamas on this thread, but AM is really my hero when it comes to this topic).

All kinds of people in all kinds of situations come here. Never forget that that. Shaming and belittling women do absolutely nothing to advance the cause of lactivism. No, I don't think cruel "venting" is some right we have. Not if we want to accomplish anything positive, at any rate.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82*
You know what? Using t3h l33tsp34k 1n 7h1$ 51tu4t10n 1s d1sr3sp3ctful!!!!!eleventy-one!!!!

Nobody in this whole thread was talking like that - in fact, most people have had exemplary grammar and spelling. What is with all the immature mocking?

Nevermind got the translation.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

A couple of comments I'd like to make.

A ff mom today may become a bfing mom for her future children - BUT ONLY IF SHE ISN'T ATTACKED AND TOLD SHE IS EVIL.

I think the only thing we are obligated to do is offer information and support. I think challenging incorrect facts is important but we also need to be clear about the difference between facts and opinions.

I personally think we should view all ff moms as potential future breastfeeders OR future proponents of bfing for their friends or kids.

If we approach them that way, we are forced to keep our tone and attitude respectful and open.

I also hate the "2 years or bust" attitude that some folks have - that breastfeeding for less than 2 years basically doesn't count. I think that is crap - every ounce of breastmilk a baby drinks is worth more than gold. Instead of viewing someone who weaned at 6 months as falling short by 18 months, instead can't we celebrate that the baby got 6 months of breastmilk?

I think we all know that in most cases, breastfeeding for many moms gets easier the longer they do it. So by being encouraging of a woman who may think she only wants to bf for a few months, she may get to the end of those months and say, "heck, I can do this for longer!".

But by saying "2 years minimum" or by castigating women who wean before then, we can intimidate women who are really not sure that they can breastfeed for even a few weeks. It is like telling someone just starting to exercise that they really need to run a marathon!

Focusing on the positives makes us better people, in my opinion, and more attractive for others to join.

Siobhan


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kajira*
This is the internet unless Cynthia decides to password protect this forum and place restrictions on it, nothing we say here is just for us, Google makes sure of that

When I joined MDC, I decided to use my real name as my user name. I thought about changing it (I even looked to see if it was possible) since so many people on MDC seem to use nicknames or pseudonyms. But I decided to not change it because for me, it reminds me that everything I post I need to stand by, regardless of who sees it.

I can be easily identified - I have now had contact with one person I know from another board, and I am dead certain that another friend reads here occasionally.

The general internet rule is doubly important for message boards (now with SEARCH!) - if you wouldn't want your best friend, father, boss, or neighbor to see it, don't post it.

Obviously, this makes support groups challenging, which is why they generally have limited membership, passwords and such. But even so, someone who has gained access to those groups can easily cut and paste something you wrote and forward it on without your permission or knowledge.

It is the nature of the beast.

And since many of us subscribe to forums, we get automatic emails with summaries of the conversations on the fora - that creates an automatic archive in every single user's inbox.

So your words are spread far and wide, with potential impacts way beyond your original intentions.

We do represent lactivism - even if we don't want to. Please keep that in mind when "venting" - how would your vent play to the very people you want to support and influence?

Siobhan


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## mrsfatty (Dec 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
Congratulations on your decision and ability to make that happen.

I would have loved to exclusively pump for my two kids who didn't nurse. I did pump for four months, but was unable to continue.

It sounds like you did what worked for you--good work on pumping for four months--it's hard!


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrsfatty*
It sounds like you did what worked for you--good work on pumping for four months--it's hard!

Thank you very much. This is the exact kind of encouragement people need in their lives. The acknowledgement that they did the best they could in the circumstances presented to them.


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## Maranwe Calafalas (Jul 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *au lait*
I know this was a while back in the thread, but I MUST speak to the milk bank issue. It has been grating on my mind the last day. I often see milk banks reccomended, and the only flaw to them pointed out is the cost. Ok, here is my issue.

(Now please, keep in mind I'm not saying formula is better, I'm anti-bovine breastmilk for anything but calves, and soy formula is even scarier and it's not vegan anyway. I'm just pointing out my issue with "Well do you have a milkbank nearby?")

Ok... my children get 100% organic and vegan breastmilk. I consume no animal by-products, I only eat organic and as GMO-free as possible, I only put pure, organic, and chemical-free things on my skin. This is very important to us. A milk bank is NOT acceptable to me. I would honestly rather feed my baby organic grass-fed bovine formula, than breastmilk from a mama who consumed flesh. Not to mention chemicals in her milk via make-up, hair dye, lotion, clorinated water, etc. There is also the smoking issue, eating too much sugar, etc, etc.

I do not appreciate the idea that anitbodies are a trump card. I'm not knocking them. I am very thankful that my children have and are recieving years of them, however an excellent nutritional base will ALWAYS be most important to us.

So breastmilk at any cost via a milk bank. Um... no.

And please do no "Oh really, well what if??". I'm not an idiot, I'm aware of all the instances that would make me eat my words.

Edit: BTW, as far as severe allergies go, how can a milk bank guarantee you that your milk is dairy/peanut/corn/etc.-free?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *au lait*
Here is an answer to your seemingly rhetorical question:

Um, why would a vegan have a cow??? And yes I have pasture. I happen to live on an off-the-grid homestead. So, yeah, I could buy a cow, but I wouldn't. In such an instance I would purchase a goat to feed the baby.


















Wow, are you my twin? I could have written that post word for word, even the otg homestead!

I have just joined after reading my first Mothering ever. I am leaving a forum that I have been a member of for seven years. In that time I have been raked over the coals repeatedly for unabashedly stating that I find formula to be scary and gross, unknown breastmilk from a bank to be scary and gross, and that if I could not nourish my children, then I would get a goat. The formula feeders told me that I was stupid, that formula was made for babies, and that I could use soy (I told them that even if soy formula was vegan, I wouldn't be interesed because of the other ingredients), the breastfeeders told me I should be ashamed of myself (evidently breastmilk is such pure liquid gold of antibodies, that who the hell cares what the woman ate), and my fellows vegan were appauled, and suggested I make the homemade formula from a barley water base. I am so happy to find someone else that shares my views!









As to the origional question. No it is not worth it at any cost. No woman should have to suffer extreme physical pain and/or severe mental anguish for the sake of breastmilk. And I am so bloody grateful to have finally found a place where the formula feeding mother's have a good reason, and my above comments do not get mis-used as defense by mothers whose claim to "extreme physical pain" is those awful first weeks of nipple soreness with your first, or their "severe mental angiush" is not being able to have the hubby get up to feed the baby at night. Yay, for MDC, a place where I seem to have finally found mothers who THINK about motherhood! I feel like I've found the mothership. I'm going to cry...

In the past I can't help but desire to question why a formula feeder, formula fed. But _here_ I have no burning desire to dig an/or educate at all. I just read a post last night here where a mother needed advice about her poor little gassy formula-fed baby, and I didn't think "well you should have freakin' breastfed him!!!" like I usually do, because I figure if she is on this forum, with five excellent breastffeding boards, then that baby is on ABM for a good reason. I love it. It feels good!


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82*
I'll keep in mind, that heaven forbid, if I ever have breastfeeding difficulties so severe I can't breastfeed, that it is morally better to *not* buy formula and thereby let my baby starve.









This is such a stupid comment I can't even believe an adult made it. Anyone with brains could assume I never meant that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Obviously some of us are concerned with the abuse of formula, not the medical need for formula. It is a medication after all and I would absolutely expect and be grateful for it's use in that application. It's the frivolousness with which it is used, and the cavalier attitude about breastfeeding that I object to. And though society is somewhat responsible for that, many of those are other women. As we've seen here, women can be the most abusive influence in society, especially to other women. It comes down to the fact that no matter what - each person is responsible for our choices. And where are the fathers in this discussion? Don't they have just as much right to say "hey, maybe we should see someone, I don't want you giving my baby that crap"?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
Honestly, this statement seems to be made completely out of ignorance (meaning lack of experience with said problems) on your part.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
In your opinion. Not everyone is able to suck it up and move on. You should praise God that you yourself have never been to that point. But a little empathy goes a long way. Judgement doesn't.

I have been to the depths of despair and depression (even having wishes of suicide that could not be fulfilled because of my obligation to raise my baby). I've been through some horrible things in my life, I've been emotionally traumatized! I've cried until I thought I'd throw up. I was given a prescription - which I threw away because I was committed to BFing w/out drugs in my system. I didn't have internet access and didn't know how to find out about the safety of drugs while nursing. I know myself and many other women (w/ or w/out drugs) were able to overcome. It does take commitment and sacrifice, but it's worth it. It's a choice. Stop the blame, finger-pointing, excusess, and do some hard work. I'm 5 yrs away from that place and still not perfect, but I'm not in the pit either. I pulled myself out. It's a power every person has in them if they *choose* to use it.


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Anyone else see the parallel between this conversation, and any conversation about those lazy welfare single mothers who ought to drag themselves up by the bootstraps?


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
Don't they have just as much right to say "hey, maybe we should see someone, I don't want you giving my baby that crap"?

And those guys are out there and do get their SO's to attempt breastfeeding.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
It does take commitment and sacrifice, but it's worth it.

I agree with you here. The problem is your ideas of commitment and sacrifice are not the same as someone else's. That doesn't mean one is right and the other wrong. Do you see what I am saying?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
It's a choice. Stop the blame, finger-pointing, excusess, and do some hard work.

Go back and look at your posts for how much you are guilty of doing these things. Again, why do you get to decide when someone has fulfilled the quota for things to try before they are allowed to give formula. Do you honestly think a new mother having difficulties with nursing would learn anything from your advice?


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
It's a power every person has in them if they *choose* to use it.

This is where you are mistaken. Not everyone has the power to choose to nurse.


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
This is such a stupid comment I can't even believe an adult made it. Anyone with brains could assume I never meant that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I see you are new here. Perhaps you should re-read the UA. Personal attacks are not allowed. You should probably calm down. Your posts are coming across like a lot of angry shrieking.

Quote:

Obviously some of us are concerned with the abuse of formula, not the medical need for formula. It is a medication after all and I would absolutely expect and be grateful for it's use in that application. It's the frivolousness with which it is used, and the cavalier attitude about breastfeeding that I object to. And though society is somewhat responsible for that, many of those are other women. As we've seen here, women can be the most abusive influence in society, especially to other women. It comes down to the fact that no matter what - each person is responsible for our choices.
Yes, we are. Your choice seems to be to belittle anyone who doesn't measure up to your standard of motherhood. Believe me, at Mothering, you would be lucky to find 10 women who are FFing out of laziness. Yet you act as though everyone here is pro-formula-at-the-drop-of-a-hat. That is not the case.

Quote:

And where are the fathers in this discussion? Don't they have just as much right to say "hey, maybe we should see someone, I don't want you giving my baby that crap"?
a. This site is called "MOTHERING", hence you will find more women here than men.
b. Generally, many posters here think that a father does not have the right to order his wife to breastfeed any more than he has the right to order her into an abortion.

Quote:

I have been to the depths of despair and depression (even having wishes of suicide that could not be fulfilled because of my obligation to raise my baby). I've been through some horrible things in my life, I've been emotionally traumatized! I've cried until I thought I'd throw up. I was given a prescription - which I threw away because I was committed to BFing w/out drugs in my system. I didn't have internet access and didn't know how to find out about the safety of drugs while nursing. I know myself and many other women (w/ or w/out drugs) were able to overcome. It does take commitment and sacrifice, but it's worth it. It's a choice. Stop the blame, finger-pointing, excusess, and do some hard work. I'm 5 yrs away from that place and still not perfect, but I'm not in the pit either. I pulled myself out. It's a power every person has in them if they *choose* to use it.
This isn't a pissing contest....and while I too have drug myself out of depression, that does not mean it is possible for ALL people or for ALL depressions.
And speaking of cavalier attitudes, you might look at the way you're talking about other people's feelings.


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
This is where you are mistaken. Not everyone has the power to choose to nurse.

Sure they do. It doesn't matter if you've had a double mastectomy. If you would just suck it up, you could breastfeed.







:


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

But I don't believe it has to be at the expense of the mother's mental health. That's an excuse. Getting some major help (lactation and mental) is vital. I know it's possible to work through the problems w/out becoming so depressed (or insert whatever word you prefer here) that you "handicap" yourself emotionall

Quote:

I have been to the depths of despair and depression (even having wishes of suicide that could not be fulfilled because of my obligation to raise my baby). I've been through some horrible things in my life, I've been emotionally traumatized! I've cried until I thought I'd throw up. I was given a prescription - which I threw away because I was committed to BFing w/out drugs in my system. I didn't have internet access and didn't know how to find out about the safety of drugs while nursing. I know myself and many other women (w/ or w/out drugs) were able to overcome. It does take commitment and sacrifice, but it's worth it. It's a choice.
It just about kills me that you can say you've been through mental illness and then say something like this. Talk about myopic.

Well, so as it happens, you got better without the drugs (and now we're shaming BFing women who take antidepressants!)--wonderful. It wouldn't have been so wonderful for your kids or spouse had you indeed attempted or committed suicide, though, eh? Which is better--a live FFing mother or a dead one who wouldn't give up on BFing? I'm sorry if I sound melodramatic, but if others are going to pull the "dead baby" card, I am going to pull this one. I do think it can go this far.

Also, let's not forget that some breastfeeding problems, and not just crazy-rare ones, CANNOT BE SOLVED with all the great LCs and support in the world. When I was told that my DD's unusually-shaped palate was causing all our nursing issues, I of course asked my LC what we could do.

"Well, she may outgrow it. Some babies do. And you need to be really scrupulous with latch, but your latch is fine."

"So what else can I do?

"Nothing, really. I'm sorry."

"Well, what do other women who have this problem do?"

"I assume they stop nursing because it hurts so much. There's hardly anything in the literature." (True. I've looked.)

"Well, but what did women with babies like mine do before formula?"

"They found someone else to nurse the baby. Or it died."


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## Kajira (May 23, 2006)

Party of 5, for someone who's walked thru hell, you seem to take it for a walk in the park.
So should I tell my friend to say to her sister, "baby don't take those nasty meds that won't allow you to bf, no don't mind that you want to kill your dh and beautiful kids, then kill yourself, if the kids live better that they had breast milk."
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I need to stop coming in this thread







:


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

You know, I just read the Andrea Yates thread, and then I came over here and read Party of 5's minimizing of mental health issues. Party of 5, might I suggest you go take a peek at that other thread? Coz what you are saying here is downright dangerous.


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

I'm not only speaking of the mothers here at this site, I'm looking at the country.

Just because this site is called Mothering, doesn't mean there aren't alot of dads here too. Besides, that was mostly rhetorical. I was pointing out that both parents are to blame for poor parenting decisions.

No man has the right to order a woman to do something unethical, but a *father* has a right to be very focal about the well being of his child. I think any father who doesn't speak up in the defense of the health and safety of his child is dropping the ball. It's not all about women you know.

I wasn't trying to have a contest, I was responding to people who thought I was making hypocritical statements about mental/emotional problems.

I did not shame mothers who take meds. I said *I* didn't take them, and that I and women who did take them were able to recover from our emotional states.

I never said that ALL BFing problems could be solved. The ones that can, should. The ones that can't, will obviously need to find an alternative. The problem I have is that it seems an overwhelming majority of the population either doesn't seek help, or doesn't put in the effort required.

As for how hard/long someone should put in that effort, I think an IBCLC is a better judge than any of us. I never said I knew where that line was, just that I know there is a line.

Acutally I've helped many mothers. Not in the capacity of an LC, but just casually giving suggestions when asked. Obviously I think all of us are better in person. This medium isn't the best to have heated debates like this because without the ability to clarify quickly, before someone tears you apart, or the ability to see the facial expressions and hear the tone of voice, it's easy to imagine that the person behind the words is some kind of raving lunatic. I don't think any of us are that IRL.

ETA it was not a walk in the park, but nor did it destroy me (or others). And no one is talking about killing anyone!


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
I'm not only speaking of the mothers here at this site, I'm looking at the country.

But when you say it to the mothers here, it sounds like you're calling their reasons inadequate.

Quote:

Just because this site is called Mothering, doesn't mean there aren't alot of dads here too. Besides, that was mostly rhetorical. I was pointing out that both parents are to blame for poor parenting decisions.
The male-female ratio here is about 1 to 100. There are VERY few men on this site. For some reason, most men aren't too into parenting forums.

Quote:

No man has the right to order a woman to do something unethical, but a *father* has a right to be very focal about the well being of his child. I think any father who doesn't speak up in the defense of the health and safety of his child is dropping the ball. It's not all about women you know.
This isn't about ethics - my point is that while it may be HIS baby too, the breasts and the womb still belong to the mother. We've argued this out here before (shall we again?) and it seems like most posters thought a father could advocate nicely, but should mostly can it as he doesn't have the breasts and doesn't know what it's like.

Quote:

I wasn't trying to have a contest, I was responding to people who thought I was making hypocritical statements about mental/emotional problems.
But whatever problems you've had are not the same ones everyone else experiences. You don't seem to have any sympathy for someone who's in the grip of PPD.

Quote:

I did not shame mothers who take meds. I said *I* didn't take them, and that I and women who did take them were able to recover from our emotional states.
You did shame them, in implying that they should just buck up and pull out of the depression. You said:

Quote:

Stop the blame, finger-pointing, excusess, and do some hard work.
implying that it was their fault they're still depressed.

Quote:

I never said that ALL BFing problems could be solved. The ones that can, should. The ones that can't, will obviously need to find an alternative. The problem I have is that it seems an overwhelming majority of the population either doesn't seek help, or doesn't put in the effort required.
But really, this thread is not about the lazy overwhelming majority of the population...it is about mothers who are suffering and struggling to breastfeed, and where the "worth it" line is drawn.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
I'm not only speaking of the mothers here at this site, I'm looking at the country.

Do you realize the number of lurkersmembers on this site that you are putting down by making the statements you are making.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
Just because this site is called Mothering, doesn't mean there aren't alot of dads here too. Besides, that was mostly rhetorical. I was pointing out that both parents are to blame for poor parenting decisions.

No man has the right to order a woman to do something unethical, but a *father* has a right to be very focal about the well being of his child. I think any father who doesn't speak up in the defense of the health and safety of his child is dropping the ball. It's not all about women you know.

Dad can't make mom nurse even if he wanted her to. So to place the blame on the father is just as ludacris as blaming the mother.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
I wasn't trying to have a contest, I was responding to people who thought I was making hypocritical statements about mental/emotional problems.

I did not shame mothers who take meds. I said *I* didn't take them, and that I and women who did take them were able to recover from our emotional states.

How else do you really think the statement "Stop the blame, finger-pointing, excusess, and do some hard work" it would come across. You are shaming them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
I never said that ALL BFing problems could be solved. The ones that can, should. The ones that can't, will obviously need to find an alternative. The problem I have is that it seems an overwhelming majority of the population either doesn't seek help, or doesn't put in the effort required.

The key phrase is there is it "seems" to you. Maybe there a lot of women who choose to ff that could bf. But there also just as many (or more) who don't have the knowledge. The way you present it isn't going to encourage anyone.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
As for how hard/long someone should put in that effort, I think an IBCLC is a better judge than any of us. I never said I knew where that line was, just that I know there is a line.

Remember what you say here when you vilify a mama for not meeting your standards of when they should stop trying.


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## cielle (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
As for how hard/long someone should put in that effort, I think an IBCLC is a better judge than any of us. I never said I knew where that line was, just that I know there is a line.

Seriously?

I had to draw the line for myself. I would never presume to draw it for anyone else, and I would never depend on some "expert" to do it.


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

I'm sorry I seem unsympathetic. I do remember it. It was horrible. I never meant to downplay the feelings. I just believe that feelings should never dictate our actions.

I didn't mean to shame depressed people. Depression isnt' usually the person's fault. But wallowing (sp?) in it is. Complaining without taking action is. The only way get "un-depressed" is to do something about it. Even if that means drugs. And a mother can still nurse while taking certain anti-depressants (so I understand).

And I understand your need to draw your own line. I'm glad you were educated enough to do it. But most people draw that line too early. That's why I say consulting with a professional is helpful.


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## CalebsMama05 (Nov 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82*
Anyone else see the parallel between this conversation, and any conversation about those lazy welfare single mothers who ought to drag themselves up by the bootstraps?

I'm a single welfare mother...well until I go back to work next month that is.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CalebsMama05*
I'm a single welfare mother

Me too. And I'm lazy, but not half as lazy as I'd be if I had some dude bringing home a big paycheque.


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## spughy (Jun 28, 2005)

Way OT, but thismama - I love your sig.


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CalebsMama05*
I'm a single welfare mother...well until I go back to work next month that is.










I hope you know I meant that sarcastically.
Some people like to go off about the welfare moms too - but it is the same thing as moms who struggle with BF and turn to FF. You are in a situation, and you do the best you can with it. Most times it is not an issue of trying "hard enough". You are doing all you can just to get by.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spughy*
Way OT, but thismama - I love your sig.

Thanks.


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## CalebsMama05 (Nov 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82*








I hope you know I meant that sarcastically.
Some people like to go off about the welfare moms too - but it is the same thing as moms who struggle with BF and turn to FF. You are in a situation, and you do the best you can with it. Most times it is not an issue of trying "hard enough". You are doing all you can just to get by.

lol dont worry i got your meaning.


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## nausicaamom (Feb 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
I'm sorry I seem unsympathetic. I do remember it. It was horrible. I never meant to downplay the feelings. I just believe that feelings should never dictate our actions.

I didn't mean to shame depressed people. Depression isnt' usually the person's fault. But wallowing (sp?) in it is. Complaining without taking action is. The only way get "un-depressed" is to do something about it. Even if that means drugs. And a mother can still nurse while taking certain anti-depressants (so I understand).

With our culture's view of mental illness, "wallowing" as you put it is usually unavoidable for many and I'm happy you were able to pull yourself out of it. We (general) do not recognize depression as the serious illness that it truly is and even admitting that you have it is an automatic mark against you because you must have done something wrong or you are weak if you feel that way. That message stops numerous women from seeking the help they need, that's why cases like Andrea Yates happen. Your use of the word "wallowing" to describe people who are unable to do what you did only perpetuates that notion. When someone is that depressed, telling them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps is the least productive thing you can do and more likely to sink them deeper, at least in my own experiences and trust me they are numerous.

Like I said, it's great that you were able to do it yourself and without any aparent outside help. I know for myself, and I've been there, I need to ask for help and alot of it and it's damn hard to get to a place where I can even consider it because of my own indoctrination into our culture's view of mental illness. I do feel your original and subsequent explainations do more harm than good however. It's not that unlike the mentality that, "I was formula fed and I turned out fine." Yes, but think how much better it would have been if you had been fed breastmilk, just like how much better my illness is managed by getting treatment (with a lot of wallowing) than I would be trying to pull myself up by my bootstraps.

Oh so many paradigms to change and oh so little time.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
I didn't mean to shame depressed people. Depression isnt' usually the person's fault. But wallowing (sp?) in it is. Complaining without taking action is. The only way get "un-depressed" is to do something about it. Even if that means drugs. And a mother can still nurse while taking certain anti-depressants (so I understand).
.

I know that you've been through some hard stuff yourself, but I'm not sure where you got this notion about depression. If clinically depressed people were able to stop "wallowing" and "take action", then they wouldn't be clinically depressed. In most cases, true depression (rather than just the blues, a rough patch, etc.) is not something you simply decide to "get over".


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## Kajira (May 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
I'm sorry I seem unsympathetic. I do remember it. It was horrible. I never meant to downplay the feelings. I just believe that feelings should never dictate our actions.

I didn't mean to shame depressed people. Depression isnt' usually the person's fault. But wallowing (sp?) in it is. Complaining without taking action is. The only way get "un-depressed" is to do something about it. Even if that means drugs. And a mother can still nurse while taking certain anti-depressants (so I understand).

And I understand your need to draw your own line. I'm glad you were educated enough to do it. But most people draw that line too early. That's why I say consulting with a professional is helpful.

Wallowing??
My friend and her sisters can not function and deal with daily issues and pressures without resorting to violence, if they are not on their meds.
I know that 2 of them while pregnant and/or breastfeeding have considered violence towards their families.
They aren't on one pill once a day, we are talking about a course of meds that have taken months and years to find the correct dosage, and you call it wallowing?

If these feelings didn't dictate their actions, I would not have one of my best friends







or she may have lost her sister to death or prison and you call in wallowing








Breastfeeding is not the end all and be all of a good mother, and maybe because this hits so close to home some of these comments hurt and it's killing me that I sent someone going thru that here








I've lived thru bleeding cracked nipples with chucks of my nipple coming off and still breastfeed, but I had never thought about killing my child and THAT is one point where I say if the meds will stop those feelings TAKE them, breast milk is great, seeing your child grow to adulthood is better.


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kajira*
Wallowing??
My friend and her sisters can not function and deal with daily issues and pressures without resorting to violence, if they are not on their meds.
I know that 2 of them while pregnant and/or breastfeeding have considered violence towards their families.
They aren't on one pill once a day, we are talking about a course of meds that have taken months and years to find the correct dosage, and you call it wallowing?

If these feelings didn't dictate their actions, I would not have one of my best friends







or she may have lost her sister to death or prison and you call in wallowing








Breastfeeding is not the end all and be all of a good mother, and maybe because this hits so close to home some of these comments hurt and it's killing me that I sent someone going thru that here








I've lived thru bleeding cracked nipples with chucks of my nipple coming off and still breastfeed, but I had never thought about killing my child and THAT is one point where I say if the meds will stop those feelings TAKE them, breast milk is great, seeing your child grow to adulthood is better.

I absolutely did not call all that wallowing!!!!!!!!! Obviously those people have something more than depression and thus the comments about depression don't apply. Using a little common sense here is helpful when evaluating one situation over another. Having a fleeting thought that it's better to be dead than feel this way, then realizing how bad that is and getting help, is far different than being unconrollably violent while off meds. Obviously.

And I never said I did not have outside help. While I did not have professional help (only because we had no med. ins. and couldn't afford it privately) I did call on my community of friends and my DH and books (although that was the least helpful part) and others. I did not have an online community at that point, but I think that would have been the most helpful (second to professional help). Please no one get the idea that I'm superwoman, or want to be, or think it's even possible to be. That's not at all what I was implying.

I also think that the cultural awareness of mental illness, especially depression, has been elevated tremendously. I think most people now understand that it's an everyday, everybody issue, not some far away island type deal. I certainly don't think there's the cultural stigma placed on that there once was, at least not among the current generation. Seeking help is now looked upon as the most responsible and admirable thing one can do. Unfortunately much of this current thought has come about because of the tragic events lately with some mothers.


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## Nisupulla (Jun 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
I also think that the cultural awareness of mental illness, especially depression, has been elevated tremendously. I think most people now understand that it's an everyday, everybody issue, not some far away island type deal. I certainly don't think there's the cultural stigma placed on that there once was, at least not among the current generation. Seeking help is now looked upon as the most responsible and admirable thing one can do.

I wish I believed this were true. Unfortunately, I believe the stigma of breastfeeding a two years old in public doesn't come close to the stigma of mental illness (even "just depression").


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## illinoismommy (Apr 14, 2006)

Thanks for this thread









I became a breastfeeding drop out *sigh* and its something I regret, but all I can do is move on and this time with my next baby I want to breastfeed long term, and so I hope to set myself up for success.....


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## MarcyC (Jul 4, 2005)

I believe in going to great lengths to breastfeed, however I don't believe in breastfeeding at any cost. There is a difference.

The lengths I've gone to are taking prescription drugs to increase supply, taking herbs - tons of various herbs in varying cominations to find what works for my body, drinking nursing teas, oatmeal, alfalfa, etc...I nursed using an SNS and/or lact-aid. Not to mention round the clock nursing while trying to homeschool two older kids.

Now, would I nurse rather than save my own life? No.

Example: Before getting pregnant and now nursing, I suffered from migraines. I had always taken Midrin which is not safe while nursing. I mentioned to my doctor that were TTC and he asked me to try a few other drugs the next time I got a migraine. One was imitrex, I can't remember the other. Imitrex was awful. It made my migraine worse and made me throw up. The other drug was just as bad. Neither drug even came close to touching my pain. As a matter of fact, they seemed to make it work. So I went back to Midrin and my migraines were under control. Magically since being pregnant and now nursing, I haven't had a migraine at all. But if I were to get one (and I get the most debilitaing migraines ever!) would take Midrin and skip nursing for a day or "pump and dump."

I had a friend who was so depressed she spiraled downward into post-partum psychosis. She declined meds because she wanted to BF however one day she started having visions of harming herself or her children so she went on meds and stopped BF'ing. I think in that case, she made the right decision.

I think if you are able to BF - even if you have low supply and have to use an SNS or take herbs or drugs - then you should BF. But if it's a question of mom's health or BF'ing, then definitely mom's health should win out.

Oh, and I don't think that just being tired or stressed is reason to stop. My older kids are 7 & 6 and they still tire and stress me. That's just part of being a mom!


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
Depression isnt' usually the person's fault. But wallowing (sp?) in it is. Complaining without taking action is.

Think about these words in the sentences above.......usually. How exactly does a person become depressed on purpose?

Also......wallowing. I'm not even going to go there as other posters have expanded on this one.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *illinoismommy*
Thanks for this thread









I became a breastfeeding drop out *sigh* and its something I regret, but all I can do is move on and this time with my next baby I want to breastfeed long term, and so I hope to set myself up for success.....











I quite nursing my first son at four months because I thought it would be easier to use bottles. The was wrong on so many levels it wasn't even funny.

I went on to nurse my middle son for 2.5 years.

Good luck with your next baby!


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarcyC*
I had a friend who was so depressed she spiraled downward into post-partum psychosis. She declined meds because she wanted to BF however one day she started having visions of harming herself or her children so she went on meds and stopped BF'ing. I think in that case, she made the right decision.

Obviously there are some situations that require medication. But I don't understand the attitude of BF OR take meds and FF? You can still BF on *some* meds. There are books that are helpful in determining which ones, and some drs might know as well.

Quote:

Oh, and I don't think that just being tired or stressed is reason to stop. My older kids are 7 & 6 and they still tire and stress me. That's just part of being a mom!








I've heard from myriad women who quit for far less than compelling reasons. The baby prefered the bottle, we tried in the hospital but then the nurse gave us the bottle and it was so much easier, I went back to work, I wanted dad to be able to feed him too etc... These are the women that enrage me, not the ones with actual medical conditions!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
Think about these words in the sentences above.......usually. How exactly does a person become depressed on purpose?

A person can become depressed because of the consequences of a choice they made. I'm loathed to give an example here because I've seen what will happen. But surely we've all done this to some extent. You decide to X, even though you know, or feel, or sense that it's not the best. Your mother, best friend etc... try to talk you out of it, but you are heck bent to do what you want to do, to "follow your heart". Then it falls apart and you play victim because you are so depressed because your life is so horrible now because of X. Well, no it's the natual consequence of your choice.

Of course, I'm not speaking of any person in particular, and I have no idea if anyone here is in that type of situation. I'm just saying it is one senario that does occur.

And obviously I'm not downplaying real depression or saying that all or most people are the cause of their own depression. Hmm, have I covered all the possible twisting of my words? I'm sure not, oh well, have at it!


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
...
A person can become depressed because of the consequences of a choice they made. I'm loathed to give an example here because I've seen what will happen. But surely we've all done this to some extent. You decide to X, even though you know, or feel, or sense that it's not the best. Your mother, best friend etc... try to talk you out of it, but you are heck bent to do what you want to do, to "follow your heart". Then it falls apart and you play victim because you are so depressed because your life is so horrible now because of X. Well, no it's the natual consequence of your choice. ....

Much of the time, (ESPECIALLY post-childbirth), depression is hormonal or chemical. Every time I have been depressed it has been for no good reason at all. Not anything I did.
And, LOL a little bit because, wellll.....

Quote:

But surely we've all done this to some extent. You decide to breastfeed, even though you know, or feel, or sense that it's not the best. Your mother, best friend etc... try to talk you out of it, but you are heck bent to do what you want to do, to "follow your heart". Then it falls apart and you play victim because you are so depressed because your life is so horrible now because of breastfeeding. Well, no it's the natual consequence of your choice. ....


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

Yes, my depression was caused by a tramatic even that happend to me coincidentally 5wks postpartum with all those hormones running around crazy







: I honestly think that the hormones blew the whole thing to unbearable proportions when maybe it didn't need to be. I really wish it had happend at 5m postpartum instead, I would have been much better able to deal









BTW that's not a real quote from me! That's one person putting words in certain places of what I said to make it sound like a formula add!!!!


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## Nisupulla (Jun 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
A person can become depressed because of the consequences of a choice they made.

I disagree. I person can become grief-stricken, sad, regretful, guilt-ridden, hurt, overwhelmed, stressed, etc. But depression isn't simply a dark cloud of uncomfortable emotions.

I do believe that any kind of trauma can increase the chance of future depression, but most people will never become depressed. So maybe in a very remote way, if some how the "choice" led to some sort of trauma, then maybe...but it's quite a leap imo.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

I believe women should give it a good earnest try, and quit if they feel they cannot emotionally/physically handle it. I had a hellacious start to bf, and I _did_ endure the SNS, the low supply, the cracked bleeding blood-blistered (yes) bruised nipples and boobs, and a baby with a poor suck and reflux and colic to boot. Bfing was that important to me. I don't expect every mom to do what I did or endure what I did. But I do expect every mom who is physically and emotionally capable of bfing to at least freaking TRY. So I guess that makes me mean.

*shrug*


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## Awaken (Oct 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *melbb*
I pumped to get my supply back up, but she never would go back to the breast, just screamed at me. She is not a cuddly type of baby and hated co-sleeping/skin to skin. SO I had limited options for trying to woo her back to the breast. I took a break from trying, then tried again and she would still just scream at the sight of my breast. She is now 8 months old and I am still EPing for her. I am sad about the loss of a BFing relationship, but we are both happier this way. I missed out on a lot of bonding time with DD because of our struggles.

Read this and just had to offer a







It was very similar for me w/ my 1st- basically ditto to what you said here. It is so depressing to offer yourself, try and give them the best, and work so hard to do it, and they just scream at you and refuse it. We did persist for 13 mos and I am very proud of that, but I would not blame someone else for ending nursing sooner than I did, in my shoes.

NYCVeg- you have been so right on with what you've written. I am so sorry for the tough times you've experienced and I admire you for perservering. I hope things do improve soon and you're able to go on to have an enjoyable, pain free nursing relationship w/ your dd.

Anyway,





















to both of you!


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
Obviously there are some situations that require medication. But I don't understand the attitude of BF OR take meds and FF? You can still BF on *some* meds. There are books that are helpful in determining which ones, and some drs might know as well.

Erm...seriously, you're criticizing someone who suffered from post-partum PSYCHOSIS for not having the right "attitude" or being able to research and rationally think through the decision to quit bfing?

Yes, there are books (Hale's) and doctors (some, though many are not educated in bfing, particularly on which drugs are safe--the info in the PDR is both more conservative and less well-researched than Hale's), but if I was suffering from pp psychosis, I think my dh's and doctor's primary order of business would be to make sure I was not an imminent danger to myself or my child.

itsybitsy...thanks for the support!


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## lyttlewon (Mar 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nisupulla*
I disagree. I person can become grief-stricken, sad, regretful, guilt-ridden, hurt, overwhelmed, stressed, etc. But depression isn't simply a dark cloud of uncomfortable emotions.

I do believe that any kind of trauma can increase the chance of future depression, but most people will never become depressed. So maybe in a very remote way, if some how the "choice" led to some sort of trauma, then maybe...but it's quite a leap imo.

I have OCD. Depression is hereditary and runs through both sides of my family (lucky me). Since I have an obsessive nature making a bad decision affects me way worse than someone without chemical imbalance, however that is a symptom of my disease. A simple problem for someone else becomes a huge deal to me. I also had PPD which isn't something that can easily be changed. When you are used to being depressed you have a tendancy to forget what it feels like to be any different. It is easy to say not to wallow in something but since I have had clinical depression for several years it wasn't easy for me to realize it had worsened with PPD.







:

Also there is a difference between post traumatic stress syndrome (what a sexual abuse victim feels) and a hereditary chemical imbalance.


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## lyttlewon (Mar 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
I also think that the cultural awareness of mental illness, especially depression, has been elevated tremendously. I think most people now understand that it's an everyday, everybody issue, not some far away island type deal. I certainly don't think there's the cultural stigma placed on that there once was, at least not among the current generation. Seeking help is now looked upon as the most responsible and admirable thing one can do. Unfortunately much of this current thought has come about because of the tragic events lately with some mothers.

While cultural awareness is different, people are no longer given frontal labotomies and you see Zoloft commericals on TV, there is still a lot of misunderstanding about depression. Occasionally I will tell a person I have OCD and the first thing they ask me is how often I wash my hands







:. People don't realize that OCD manifests in many ways. I have the obsessive portion of the disease not the compulsive. People always compare me to that stupid TV show Monk. When I try to explain the difference often people dismiss it saying "Oh yeah everyone worries maybe I have OCD" and then they tell me some silly story that doesn't even compare to a true obsessive event. I have panic attacks, vomit, pick at myself, get migranes etc. That is much different than someone worrying they left their iron on and calling their house to see if it burned down (that is a true anecdote).

So it is easy to dismiss a true illness because of the way our culture displays it. The people with disease are turned into comedy routine. How am I supposed to know I have a disease and I am not just a freak?


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Yes, what lyttlewon said. There are shades of depression and different causes for depression; certainly sometimes it is situational but I think to say that it is ever someone's FAULT is as counterproductive as calling formula feeding mothers 'evil'. Whether or not it has some validity (and I would submit that it doesn't, but let's suppose that it does) it serves only to alienate anyone who has been depressed for WHATEVER reason, and to put them on the defensive.

People are not open to new ideas when they are on the defensive.

And serious depression, whether it is triggered by a life event or purely the result of a chemical imbalance (I think it's often a combination of the two), is a medical illness that affects the whole body as well as the mind. What you call 'wallowing', i.e. the inability to just pull yourself up by your bootstraps and get un-depressed, or even to seek out help, is PART OF THE DISEASE. Do you think anyone *wants* to be in the depths of depression? Think of a person so ill that they think about, plan, or commit suicide. It is contrary to our nature to want to kill ourselves. People who can think clearly enough to find help do not hurt themselves. To insinuate that even some depressed people are suffering because they have CHOSEN to suffer is a very harsh and confusing position to take. I can't help but wonder if someone who espouses such a view might not be projecting based on their own self-blame and shame at having made poor life choices and/or having suffered from depression.

At any rate, there are meds for depression that are safe to take while BF, but - a) many doctors do not know about them or care to research them and will tell someone to wean in order to take meds for depression and b) not all depression will respond to the "safe" meds. For instance, someone who is bipolar and needs Lithium cannot safely breastfeed, at least not without taking a significant risk. Yet Lithium may be the only drug that person responds to.

I sense a real need to cast this as an issue of personal responsibility. That is fine if it's your opinion. It may even be true for many people, that they didn't breastfeed because they made irresponsible and selfish choices. But what I think cannot be stated enough is that as *Lactivism*, judging and shaming is counterproductive. On the individual level, on a message board, whatever. If your aim is to get more people breastfeeding, if that is something you value, you have to think about what works. And telling people they should have tried harder, that they shouldn't have made the life choices that they did, should should should...that simply DOESN'T WORK! That is not the way you reach people.

There is a wonderful anecdote in the "Excuses for Not BF" thread in Lactivism about how a poster was able to gently ask questions and provide information in a non-threatening and non-judgemental way that actually DID make a difference in someone's opinion of breastfeeding. I just don't see why it is ever necessary to "go negative". Even venting online, it just seems like a way for people to pat themselves on the back and separate the world into Good and Bad instead of really looking at how to change people's perspective and work towards increasing BF rates.


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## lyttlewon (Mar 7, 2006)

:


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
There is a wonderful anecdote in the "Excuses for Not BF" thread in Lactivism about how a poster was able to gently ask questions and provide information in a non-threatening and non-judgemental way that actually DID make a difference in someone's opinion of breastfeeding.

I think that was my anecdote! Wow, cool! : )

I have to say I was shocked that she changed her mind from "its disgusting (oh and it will ruin my breasts)" to "I'll nurse for 2 months probably."

Anyhow.... Not to toot my own horn, I just wanted to agree with

Quote:

I just don't see why it is ever necessary to "go negative".
Here is the thing that I have found. It is easy to take an extreme, black and white position online - mainly because we don't have to deal with the specifics of anyone's situation.

And it is easy to succumb to some of the baser behaviors of bitching, criticizing, judging, and attacking other people on line (lord knows i have done it a lot myself).

However, I have found that when I do take part (even dressed up as "venting"), it has a poisonous effect on my soul. It makes it harder to face and respect the people I have bitched about IRL. It makes me feel negative and nasty and basically like I am violating my core values.

And more often than not, someone will post something very eloquent and insightful that makes me question my own negative statements - sometimes to the point where I am embarassed about things I have said.

Quote:

Even venting online, it just seems like a way for people to pat themselves on the back and separate the world into Good and Bad instead of really looking at how to change people's perspective and work towards increasing BF rates.
I know I have been guilty of this so I agree. Self-righteousness feels great - and is actually a sin, in my book. It is an ugly, nasty sin.

Siobhan


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

I never said anything about bootstraps, that was someone else's misguided idea! And no I don't feel shame about having been depressed. I did get help. I do wish that that year had been happier and more easygoing, I do lament the fact that in one sense that year was taken up by depression. But I don't feel ashamed, obviously since I volunteered the info. It's not something to be ashamed about anymore. And I'm sorry that there are still people so ignorant that they can only think of some low rate cable show when presented with an actual medical term.

But yes there are people who choose to stay depressed. And I don't even mean life choices, I'm talking about some people who just like the attention it brings etc... But that is such a small group, and doesn't apply to what we are talking about. In fact, depression doesn't apply to the topic of this thread at all, but I digress.

And obviously people who are medically unable to have safe meds for BFing, are not bad for choosing the meds instead of BFing. I think I've clarified that more than once now. Let's try to keep up here.


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## Nisupulla (Jun 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
And serious depression, whether it is triggered by a life event or purely the result of a chemical imbalance (I think it's often a combination of the two), is a medical illness that affects the whole body as well as the mind...i.e. the inability to just pull yourself up by your bootstraps and get un-depressed, or even to seek out help, is PART OF THE DISEASE... To insinuate that even some depressed people are suffering because they have CHOSEN to suffer is a very harsh and confusing position to take.

You said it better than I could.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Do you really think that breastfeeding is SO important that it is worth enduring weeks and months of pain and frustration, exhaustion, and/or compromising one's mental health?

I think it's worth enduring a few weeks of pain and frustration while you try and work it out, just to make sure that it wasn't something that couldn't be worked out.

There are mental health issues and then there are mental health issues. I'm not talking about something serious that requires serious treatment that could interfere with breastfeeding, but I've seen the mental health argument a lot as in if the frustration gets you so down, it's better just to give up. I trust women to know when they've had enough and need to move on, but I hate the attitude that breastfeeding, as opposed to other aspects of parenting, isn't worth enduring things for, because it is.

It's just one thing in the long line of things pretty much starting with pre-conception that we have to feel guilty and beat ourselves up about. I've failed at a lot of parenting things that I swore I wouldn't, like the not hitting my kids, and not yelling at my kids, and the whole healthy diet thing. Sometimes I just freaking want to give it all up and just do what I want and just not give two hoots. Sometimes I just want to give the kids away and say heck with it. No one gets out of this life alive anyway, and I'm tired of all the mental anguish. But I keep trying because I'm supposed to.

So yeah, I think it is worth some pretty hard effort because parenting is hard and requires a lot of effort. Breastfeeding wasn't easy for me in the beginning, I had cracked and bleeding nipples and I remember thinking after a month that I really couldn't take 11 more months of this crap. But eventually things got easier. We all have our tolerances and I don't judge people for that, but I do believe there are people who are not committed to breastfeeding and really don't want to do it. Just like I believe there are people who are completely committed to breastfeeding and then end up not being able to do it for long and feel like failures. I don't want that. Basically I just want to make our breastfeeding culture as friendly as possible, free from the formula pushing, don't feel bad, many women can't breastfeed messages that get pushed on us by various people who can benefit from us failing.


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## rabrog (Dec 20, 2005)

Mothers that have tried (in their minds) and have decided that it is in their best interests and that of the baby to not breast feed sure as hell don't need someone telling them they "robbed" their child of anything or that they are not doing what they should for their child.

Some women don't have the mental hutzpuh to pump through blood, sweat and tears without losing it mentally and being seriously depressed. When the well being of the mother is not good, the well being of the baby is not good...period. Little ones sense everything and being held close to a tense, upset mama while trying to be relaxed and eat isn't a good place for a baby.

Breastfeeding is a personal decision - is it better to breastfeed? Absolutely. Should every woman try their personal best for as long as they deem they are capable? Absolutely. Should they be torn down, told negative things about themselves and the choices they've made? Absolutely not.

Jenn


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rabrog*
When the well being of the mother is not good, the well being of the baby is not good...period. Little ones sense everything and being held close to a tense, upset mama while trying to be relaxed and eat isn't a good place for a baby.

I think this deserves emphasis. When my pain got to a tolerable level and I started seeing a therapist about my depression--that is, when I was able to move beyond a state of complete tension and unhappiness--the change is my dd was dramatic and noticeable. I feel very guilty about what she had to endure in her first weeks of life.







Ultimately, I think and hope that the benefits of long-term bfing will outweigh the 8 weeks of tension and difficulty SHE suffered--but I don't think I would have prolonged that stress (on either of us) indefinitely. As it is, we're still "behind" where we should be in terms of her comfort while eating--for instance, at 2 months old, she still won't take any initiative in latching on herself. She opens her mouth wide, but has to be pulled onto the breast firmly like she did when she was just born.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
But yes there are people who choose to stay depressed. And I don't even mean life choices, I'm talking about some people who just like the attention it brings etc... But that is such a small group, and doesn't apply to what we are talking about. In fact, depression doesn't apply to the topic of this thread at all, but I digress.


Well, Party*of*5, you didn't use the phrase "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" but that phrase means exactly what you DID say, which is that if someone *chooses* to not get help for their depression, if they "wallow" in it, then it is their fault that they remain depressed. I have no idea what you're talking about as far as people who like the attention being depressed brings.







And of course depression applies to the topic of this thread - are you really saying that it doesn't? Many women quit breastfeeding because of PPD. So it goes directly to the heart of the OP. Maybe you want to consider your words more carefully before posting them?


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
Well, Party*of*5, you didn't use the phrase "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" but that phrase means exactly what you DID say, which is that if someone *chooses* to not get help for their depression, if they "wallow" in it, then it is their fault that they remain depressed. I have no idea what you're talking about as far as people who like the attention being depressed brings.







And of course depression applies to the topic of this thread - are you really saying that it doesn't? Many women quit breastfeeding because of PPD. So it goes directly to the heart of the OP. Maybe you want to consider your words more carefully before posting them?

Well I'm sorry if you don't know about the people out there who choose to either endure or fake all sorts of illness, including depression just for the attention and other benefits. Perhaps you could do some research before blindly dissmissing it.

And I don't agree with the statement that what I said is akin to pulling oneself up by the bootstraps. That phrase implies going it alone. I never suggested going it alone. I said that it's responsible and commendable to seek help. It's the best course of action to preserve quality of life for all involved. I don't however understand why some believe that the mere presence of depression or meds is a reason to quit nursing. I also don't understand the notion that one should never express the superiority of breastmilk? If FFs don't know how much they are denying their baby, how will they become "future BFers" as a pp claimed they should be viewed as? And if they don't feel shame for their choice, how will they be motivated to make a different one? Don't we all feel motivated to make better choices when we see the consequences of a poor one? I'm not talking about those medically necessary situations, I'm talking only about the ones who make the choice for *other* reasons.

This thread is about whether or not it's worth it to struggle through BF difficulties. Since then it has turned into a debate about whether FFs are bad, and a discussion about depression and meds. None of which seems to be drawing any of us closer to a consensus or conclusion. Especially if some are not reading all the posts, or skimming them, or worse, not comprehending them.

ETA: I do see your point regarding my comment on depression. It's not that it does not apply to this discussion. I was more referring to the direction our conversations regarding depression had taken in this thread. You are right, depression is the reason many quit nursing. However our discussions seem to revolve more around how to handle depression, degrees of depression, and degrees of mental illness in general. We just end up fighting amongst ourselves over missunderstandings or percieved intents.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
Well I'm sorry if you don't know about the people out there who choose to either endure or fake all sorts of illness, including depression just for the attention and other benefits. Perhaps you could do some research before blindly dissmissing it.

Who are you to decide who is "faking it." I agree there are probably cases of what you are saying, but I am not sure what authority you have to decide that without being intimately involved in that person's situation. You can assume all you want about a situation, doesn't make it right though.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
If FFs don't know how much they are denying their baby, how will they become "future BFers" as a pp claimed they should be viewed as? And if they don't feel shame for their choice, how will they be motivated to make a different one? Don't we all feel motivated to make better choices when we see the consequences of a poor one? I'm not talking about those medically necessary situations, I'm talking only about the ones who make the choice for *other* reasons.

Do you honestly believe you can shame anyone into doing anything? You can educate the person and let them know the benefits without shaming them. I know how much better breastmilk is for babies, but that doesn't mean I was able to pump for any longer than I did. Could I have pumped longer? Yep. Was it the right choice for my family to continue pumping longer than I did? Nope.

You seem so cold in the way you present your case that I would hope that no woman is confronted by you about it all if this is truly your tact. There are gentle ways to help people understand things and learn about things. When I was confronted with people that presented the arguements in the way you do.....it made me run the other way. I am very happy to say that my stance has changed on more than one subject with the gentle guidance of others on this site.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
Especially if some are not reading all the posts, or skimming them, or worse, not comprehending them.

Well I am guessing we all know about assuming and why it is not good.

A person asking for clarification is part of the process of learning. You (general) state something and then someone agrees/disagrees/asks for clarification. It's just the way it works.


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

Again you try to make me out to be some rule maker! I'm not deciding who's faking. Even drs have been fooled. But it is documented in the medical profession that there are people who will fake illness/mental illness. I never once said *I* knew who they were! Please do not put words into my mouth!

And no one cannot shame another. But one can feel shame after learning what they have done is wrong. Some will feel shame after learning the error of their ways and that will motivate them to make the right choices. Why else do mothers make children take back what they've stolen and apologize? The shame of "being called out" will motivate most children to either stay on, or get back on the right track.

The only reason I seem cold is because I'm only responding the issues, not any individual. Yes I'm more of a clinical person, logical, even IRL, but as I've said before this typeface medium allows no room for tone of voice, facial expression or any other subtleties that would better convey gentleness.

I invite asking for clarification, unfortunately I've seen little to none of that here, only people taking things out of context or taking one comment then coming up with outrageously far out examples or circumstances that obviously don't apply to that comment and making a mockery out of it.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
And no one cannot shame another.

I think maybe this is why I don't agree with you on this matter. I do see how someone can learn without being shamed.....it may just take more effort on the part of the person doing the teaching/explaining.


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
.....it may just take more effort on the part of the person doing the teaching/explaining.

Now that is something for me to think about! I could most certainly benefit from further instruction and practice in the art of verbal diplomacy. I tend to focus more on being the encylopedia instead of the librarian (if that makes sense).


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Party isn't that far off base, she's just getting whacked with the flaming pc stick for daring to hint at anything that speaks of personal responsibility. I've been clinically depressed, & until I was determined to get help, nothing anyone else did mattered a whit.

Call me unsympathetic if you want, but I spent years in clinical depression, took more meds than most ten people will in a lifetime, have been hospitalized for over a month, etc. So calling me unsympathetic- well, you can think what you want, but until you've walked in my shoes...

I hate gangbangs. (And I'm a little weary of having to nod sympathetically IRL to every woman who is clearly functional but says she was 'too depressed' to nurse & couldn't because of drugs prescribed that I know for a fact are compatible with bfing, but she never bothered to find the right answers, and it would be nice to have a safe Lactivist haven to vent & sigh about it all.

This isn't about 'none-of-your-business' meddling, it's about having to agree like a stupe out of politeness & feeling like the World's Least Effective Lactivist because you didn't dare say they could too have nursed on that drug, Hale says so, & you've done it yourself. Because you might be accused of not being sensitive to the difficulties of the mentally ill







.)

IF you _really_ can't nurse because of meds OR IF you are so effed up you may hurt your baby, I suggest a switch to bottles may be an insufficient solution. If you are feeling rough because of hormones & exhaustion & your nipples hurt & you want to call it depression (and no doubt it seems like it, the normal postpartum weeping fits & despair as your body adjusts), I may have to pretend IRL that it's no big deal that you chose to use that as the reason you couldn't nurse, but I find THAT a little insensitive to the genuinely mentally ill & the problems we deal with in life.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
Now that is something for me to think about! I could most certainly benefit from further instruction and practice in the art of verbal diplomacy. I tend to focus more on being the encylopedia instead of the librarian (if that makes sense).

I am honestly still working on this myself. I don't claim to have it all figured out.









I was lucky enough to meet up with someone who was able to teach me about circ without shaming me.......but that's a whole nother thread.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail*
Party isn't that far off base, she's just getting whacked with the flaming pc stick for daring to hint at anything that speaks of personal responsibility. I've been clinically depressed, & until I was determined to get help, nothing anyone else did mattered a whit.

Call me unsympathetic if you want, but I spent years in clinical depression, took more meds than most ten people will in a lifetime, have been hospitalized for over a month, etc. So calling me unsympathetic- well, you can think what you want, but until you've walked in my shoes...

I hate gangbangs. (And I'm a little weary of having to nod sympathetically IRL to every woman who is clearly functional but says she was 'too depressed' to nurse & couldn't because of drugs prescribed that I know for a fact are compatible with bfing, but she never bothered to find the right answers, and it would be nice to have a safe Lactivist haven to vent & sigh about it all.

This isn't about 'none-of-your-business' meddling, it's about having to agree like a stupe out of politeness & feeling like the World's Least Effective Lactivist because you didn't dare say they could too have nursed on that drug, Hale says so, & you've done it yourself. Because you might be accused of not being sensitive to the difficulties of the mentally ill







.)

IF you _really_ can't nurse because of meds OR IF you are so effed up you may hurt your baby, I suggest a switch to bottles may be an insufficient solution. If you are feeling rough because of hormones & exhaustion & your nipples hurt & you want to call it depression (and no doubt it seems like it, the normal postpartum weeping fits & despair as your body adjusts), I may have to pretend IRL that it's no big deal that you chose to use that as the reason you couldn't nurse, but I find THAT a little insensitive to the genuinely mentally ill & the problems we deal with in life.

Everyone has a right to their own opinions.









I just worry more about what the mamas who are lurking think when they see the posts on mdc. I know how hard it is to pull out of things, but when you read how horrible you are for not choosing the path deemed better it makes it really hard to see past to the good things people have to offer.

I totally agree breastfeeding is better, but I refuse to shame a person because they don't live up to expectations I have no right to have of them.


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## Nisupulla (Jun 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viola*
I've seen the mental health argument a lot as in if the frustration gets you so down, it's better just to give up. I trust women to know when they've had enough and need to move on, but I hate the attitude that breastfeeding, as opposed to other aspects of parenting, isn't worth enduring things for, because it is.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Part*of*5*
I don't however understand why some believe that the mere presence of depression or meds is a reason to quit nursing.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail*
If you are feeling rough because of hormones & exhaustion & your nipples hurt & you want to call it depression (and no doubt it seems like it, the normal postpartum weeping fits & despair as your body adjusts), I may have to pretend IRL that it's no big deal that you chose to use that as the reason you couldn't nurse, but I find THAT a little insensitive to the genuinely mentally ill & the problems we deal with in life.

Wow, you all have such different ways of approaching this topic. Great posts.
~nisu


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## mamamelia (Apr 14, 2005)

Quote:

A person can become depressed because of the consequences of a choice they made. I'm loathed to give an example here because I've seen what will happen. But surely we've all done this to some extent. *You decide to X, even though you know, or feel, or sense that it's not the best. Your mother, best friend etc... try to talk you out of it, but you are heck bent to do what you want to do, to "follow your heart". Then it falls apart and you play victim because you are so depressed because your life is so horrible now because of X. Well, no it's the natual consequence of your choice.*
what if breastfeeding was X.

what happens then? do you stop breastfeeding or do you dose up on meds and continue to do something that is causing you to be depressed?


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Um, breastfeeding does not cause clinical depression. Either we're talking about an actual illness (treatable with meds), or we are not. If stopping bfing will cease your depression, I have to surmise that you are not, indeed, clinically depressed.


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamamelia*
what if breastfeeding was X.

what happens then? do you stop breastfeeding or do you dose up on meds and continue to do something that is causing you to be depressed?

Hmm, honestly that would totally suck. I would imagine that there are other severe issues that require professional help in a case like that. Also, maybe she needs more education. I would hope that with meds and pumping and counseling BFing could continue while working through the mother's issues. *I am not a professional and so not equipped to completely solve this problem.*But I think that would be a great start. I firmly believe that a woman who is medically capable of supplying safe breastmilk to her baby should be expected to do so despite what she may be going through at the moment *in most cases.* And please no one say who am I to judge... I am certainly not qualified to. But neither is someone who is mentally handicapped qualified to make that decision *on her own.* A wise person would seek out professional advice and together come up with a plan of action. And no I'm not trying in infringe upon anyone's rights, but obviously mentally ill people don't always make good choices.


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail*
Um, breastfeeding does not cause clinical depression. Either we're talking about an actual illness (treatable with meds), or we are not. If stopping bfing will cease your depression, I have to surmise that you are not, indeed, clinically depressed.

um...







:


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## mamamelia (Apr 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail*
Um, breastfeeding does not cause clinical depression. Either we're talking about an actual illness (treatable with meds), or we are not. If stopping bfing will cease your depression, I have to surmise that you are not, indeed, clinically depressed.

and you know for a fact that breastfeeding doesn't cause clinical depression because....?


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## mamamelia (Apr 14, 2005)

Quote:

"(also known as unipolar or major depression) a state of depression so severe as to require clinical intervention by a health care professional. It has several treatment options, including psychotherapy, antidepressant medication, and electroconvulsive therapy. When five or more symptoms listed on a standard depression quiz are present for at least two weeks, but tend to continue for four to six months, the mood disorder is considered clinical / major depression."
that's what clinical depression is. are you telling me that breastfeeding cannot cause this -- not in any way possible?


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rabrog*
Breastfeeding is a personal decision -
Jenn


I guess what always bothers me about this sentiment is that breastfeeding is "most" personal for the baby, and yet, the baby ultimately doesn't get a vote.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Are you really trying to make a case that breastfeeding actually *causes* clinical depression?

NO, you PROVE breastfeeding causes depression before making a claim like that. (I'm used to saying this in TCAC & Vax, but this is a first in the BFing forum.) Good God.


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail*
Um, breastfeeding does not cause clinical depression. Either we're talking about an actual illness (treatable with meds), or we are not. If stopping bfing will cease your depression, I have to surmise that you are not, indeed, clinically depressed.

It COULD cause depression though. There are hormones involved in milk production, and you could react negatively to them....we all know that hormones affect the brain in strange ways.


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## hawkfeather (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82*
It COULD cause depression though. There are hormones involved in milk production, and you could react negatively to them....we all know that hormones affect the brain in strange ways.

Actually breastfeeding can not _cause_ depression.
Hormones associated with pregnancy _can_ cause depression, but you will have them if you breastfeed or not.
Your body does not know you if will _not_ be nursing. We all produce the hormones to enable us to breastfeed, and in fact prolactin is proven to help ward *OFF* PPD. And breastfeeding helps ensure you are continulously producing prolactin.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

I don't think normal bfing can cause depression. But I think that the extreme anxiety, frustration, and severe physical pain that can come with problematic bfing can certainly contribute to depression (particularly if someone has had psychological problems in the past, is experiencing PPD, or is particularly susceptible to post-partum hormone fluctuations). In fact, I know this--I experienced it. And this thread is not (intended to be) about "normal" bfing, but about cases of extreme difficulty and mental or physical pain.


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## Nisupulla (Jun 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamamella*
that's what clinical depression is. are you telling me that breastfeeding cannot cause this -- not in any way possible?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82*
It COULD cause depression though.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg*
I think that the extreme anxiety, frustration, and severe physical pain that can come with problematic bfing can certainly contribute to depression.

Wow, I had no idea is this myth was so prevalent. Breastfeeding doesn't cause depression. It's not even a risk factor. Stress doesn't cause depression either. (Stress can make existing depression worse.)

As another poster said, if anything, breastfeeding slows down the hormonal shift and increases the good feeling hormones. Quitting breastfeeding isn't going to make depression go away, and sudden weaning can make it worse.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Sometimes forcing proof or lines of logic that are satisfactory to others is besides the point, yk?

If a mama says breastfeeding caused depression for her, then let's have some respect for that. Maybe it was the difficulties of a problematic bf'ing relationship, maybe bf'ing her child brought up old issues, maybe she just plain old did not like bf'ing and yet felt pressure to continue. Any of these situations can lead to depression, and who cares if it can be classified as "clinical." Situational depression sucks too, yk?


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82*
It COULD cause depression though. There are hormones involved in milk production, and you could react negatively to them....we all know that hormones affect the brain in strange ways.









:


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Well, I'm glad someone looking for support here can now add THAT myth to 'I don't want my boobs to sag', etc on their reasons they chose not to breastfeed from the get-go. Because, you know, it causes depression.

What does it matter if she's really depressed, even if she feels iffy (and I don't know ANY women that weren't in a whirlwind of turmoil after birthing), that's good enough. Of course, stopping bfing will _really_ mess up your hormones, but I doubt someone looking for excuses not to step out of their comfort zone is going to pick up on _that_.

If I say my ankle hurts, can I park in the handicapped space now? I mean, it really DOES hurt. Who are you to tell me I should walk on it? If you insist upon legitimate definitions of illness & injury you're not being _sensitive_. You're not respecting me. My sprain never healed right, & I'd bet a hundred bucks right now you'd tell me to suck it up & leave the space for 'legitimate' users.

Hey, but mental illness is different, it's not a _real_ disability. (That's the underlying attitude I'm hearing, deny it if you want.) You can say you suffer from whatever you like & who will dare disagree with you.







:.


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

TigerTail







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Sometimes forcing proof or lines of logic that are satisfactory to others is besides the point, yk?

If a mama says breastfeeding caused depression for her, then let's have some respect for that. Maybe it was the difficulties of a problematic bf'ing relationship, maybe bf'ing her child brought up old issues, maybe she just plain old did not like bf'ing and yet felt pressure to continue. Any of these situations can lead to depression, and who cares if it can be classified as "clinical." Situational depression sucks too, yk?

I've heard mamas say some of the stupidest things to justify quitting. No we should absolutely not take her word for it. She obviously needs to be educated. I'd love to hear some professional answers to this, because I also don't believe the act of BFing alone can cause clinical depression. I believe that the mother's emotional response, her baggage, her misconceptions about what she's missing or whatever, can cause her to become depressed, but those are issues of her own past or ignorance. Situational depression does suck, totally, but it's alot easier to "cure" than biochemical depression.


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## gethane (Dec 30, 2003)

I think if breastfeeding caused or contributed to depression, then the formula industry would've made sure we all knew it.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
TigerTail







:

I've heard mamas say some of the stupidest things to justify quitting. No we should absolutely not take her word for it. She obviously needs to be educated.

Speaking about feeling that breastfeeding caused serious depression is not a stupid thing.

No she does not obviously need to be "educated." She obviously needs to be respected, first and foremost, and take it from there.

The insensitivity and judgment from some so called "lactivists" continues to amaze me.

Quote:

I believe that the mother's emotional response, her baggage, her misconceptions about what she's missing or whatever, can cause her to become depressed, but those are issues of her own past or ignorance.
Well, I know this is inconvenient, but mamas are not just a pair of lactating breasts. We are whole people, and need to be approached as such.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
The insensitivity and judgment from some so called "lactivists" continues to amaze me.


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gethane*
I think if breastfeeding caused or contributed to depression, then the formula industry would've made sure we all knew it.










I'm absolutely not a Lactivist! I understand that women are people, but mothers are people with obligations and responsiblities. Finding excuses to dismiss those is what I object to. It's not all about you (general) anymore. When you (general) decide to have children, you don't give up being a seperate person, but nor is your life about what *you* want, what *you* feel. Women are so wrapped up in themselves, and they seem to be able to ferret out any excuse to remain that way. That's what I'm tired of. That's what I'm against.


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## Nisupulla (Jun 16, 2006)

I think TigerTail's comment about the really, hurting ankle is on the money. It may really hurt but that doesn't make it broken or unusable. There's a big difference between an ankle that hurts, and ankle that's sprained and ankle that's broken or worse.

Although most of us are not clinicians, we have to agree to some minimal language conventions in order to communicate. If your ankle hurts, you can't just say it's broken.

The stress of breastfeeding could cause an short-term adjustment disorder, but it can't cause depression. I just can't view that as nit-picking. If we start interchanging the term hurt feelings with the term depression, that makes for a very confusing conversation and perpetuates the idea that people with mental illness can just snap out of it.

Regardless of whether a mom is experiencing hurt feelings, an adjustment disorder, PPD or PPP, deciding whether to continue BF is her call. But saying I can't breastfeed because it makes me depressed is similar to saying I'm not going to breastfeed because I don't want my breasts to get floppy.

BTW, The lactivists-are-insensitive-and-judgemental argument, is getting lame. How about I just start a conundrum, people who call lactivists insensitive and judgemental are insensitive and judgemental.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
. Finding excuses to dismiss those is what I object to. It's not all about you (general) anymore. When you (general) decide to have children, you don't give up being a seperate person, but nor is your life about what *you* want, what *you* feel. Women are so wrapped up in themselves, and they seem to be able to ferret out any excuse to remain that way. That's what I'm tired of. That's what I'm against.

I do not personally know *any* mothers who have not experienced a profound shift away from focus on the self when their babies are born.

For myself and many of my friends, this shift was so profound that it de-stablized, or threatened to de-stablize our mental health.

The vast majority of the men I know do not have to experience a shift away from the self on this level, nor does society expect them to.

Babies need mamas who are stable, who are able to retain some semblance of personhood.

It is not good for anybody to shame mamas and call them selfish and lazy for not going to extraordinary lengths to meet our standards.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

If a mama hurts her ankle and doesn't want to walk on it, I don't demand evidence that it is sprained, broken, or otherwise injured to my satisfaction. I check to see if there is something I can do to assist her to walk, like maybe support some of her weight. Alternatively, I work to figure out how else she can get to where she needs to be.


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## mama-a-llama (Feb 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nisupulla*
As another poster said, if anything, breastfeeding slows down the hormonal shift and increases the good feeling hormones. Quitting breastfeeding isn't going to make depression go away, and sudden weaning can make it worse.

Now, I'm curious, has anyone ever tested/studied what's happening with these hormones in problematic bfing situations? I feel like I've heard that stress can inhibit prolactin release--is that really true? Also isn't prolactin release stimulated by baby sucking? So if you were having serious latch problems you might not be getting as much prolactin. And in the case of low supply, couldn't a hormonal imbalance cause the low supply?

I'm not trying to say that stress or bfing hormones _cause_ depression. But if you were already susceptible to PPD, and weren't getting the slowdown of hormonal shift b/c of bfing/hormonal problems, then. . .?


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
I do not personally know *any* mothers who have not experienced a profound shift away from focus on the self when their babies are born.

Unfortunately I do. And there are millions of them out there!

Quote:

For myself and many of my friends, this shift was so profound that it de-stablized, or threatened to de-stablize our mental health.
Then perhaps professional help was needed, but that doesn't exclude BFing. And I find this to be another lame excuse anyway.

Quote:

The vast majority of the men I know do not have to experience a shift away from the self on this level, nor does society expect them to.
That's male bashing, another thing women are good at. Men do experience a shift in priorities - decent men I mean. But they don't grow babies inside their bodies or nurish them from their bodies, so their experience is different. And I agree, much of society has let fathers off the hook, but again I have to look at the women here. Women are so cavalier about fatherhood, and even question the significance of it. Men are disposable now and their opinions not even worthy consideration. They get pushed out of decision making in so many areas of life.

Quote:

Babies need mamas who are stable, who are able to retain some semblance of personhood.
Yes, but why do you think that means not doing everything in one's power to do the right things? I had a hellish month before ds1 learned to latch, but I can tell you that I'm so relieved I stuck with it. It was hard, and inconvenient, and I worried and cried, and sure I could have said it made me depressed. But I can't even begin to tell you what I'd think of myself if I had given up!


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
Then perhaps professional help was needed, but that doesn't exclude BFing. And I find this to be another lame excuse anyway.

If you believe that destablized mental health is simply a lame excuse, well then I can't help you understand where I'm coming from, and I want to be far, far away from where you are coming from.

Quote:

That's male bashing, another thing women are good at.
Alternatively, it is speaking to the sexism ingrained in the culture and how it impacts mama/baby dyads and nursing. You decide.

Quote:

And I agree, much of society has let fathers off the hook, but again I have to look at the women here.
Ah yes, of course. Everything is women's fault, including deadbeat fathers. Silly me, I forgot for a moment.

Quote:

I had a hellish month before ds1 learned to latch, but I can tell you that I'm so relieved I stuck with it. It was hard, and inconvenient, and I worried and cried, and sure I could have said it made me depressed. But I can't even begin to tell you what I'd think of myself if I had given up!
I am thrilled for you that your ds latched, the loss of a much wanted bf relationship is a sad thing.

I am sorry to hear that you would judge yourself so harshly had it not worked out.









ETA - I think this really is the crux of it. Women judge ourselves so, so harshly, especially where our mothering is concerned. And how can we be more accepting/lenient in our treatment of others, when we cannot manage to give that gift to ourselves?


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## Nisupulla (Jun 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
If you believe that destablized mental health is simply a lame excuse, well then I can't help you understand where I'm coming from, and I want to be far, far away from where you are coming from.

I don't think Party said destabilized mental health is no biggie, she said it's not a result of BF. You've been following the the thread, you know that.







:


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
TigerTail







:

I've heard mamas say some of the stupidest things to justify quitting. No we should absolutely not take her word for it. She obviously needs to be educated.

But why are you personally the judge of how anybody else feels? Are you like this IRL?

Quote:

I'd love to hear some professional answers to this, because I also don't believe the act of BFing alone can cause clinical depression. I believe that the mother's emotional response, her baggage, her misconceptions about what she's missing or whatever, can cause her to become depressed, but those are issues of her own past or ignorance.
Or of physical pain, exhaustion, and severe sleep deprivation. Which has been shown to cause depression! And breastfeeding could definitely contribute to sleep deprivation!

TigerTail -
This is not about handing out excuses not to breastfeed - this is about recognizing that it is NOT always easy, and for some women, it is impossible, or very near!
Take a mother who is having nursing issues, a baby who's hungry and dehydrated and screaming, wanting to nurse 24/7, mom is getting NO sleep and is in a depressed fog. Now obviously, some of these problems could be solved with the right support - latch help, and dare I say it, a person to feed that baby some pumped BM or even FORMULA for 9 hours while mama gets to sleep for the first time in weeks - after which she will be better equipped to cope.

I will be the first to say that mamas need a culture that supports breastfeeding, and available LLL or LC when/if they have problems. But I will also say that if a person tells me that it was too much for them, I will take their word for it! It is not MY PLACE to sit there and grill them to make sure that they tried hard enough.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
ETA - I think this really is the crux of it. Women judge ourselves so, so harshly, especially where our mothering is concerned. And how can we be more accepting/lenient in our treatment of others, when we cannot manage to give that gift to ourselves?

I think you've got it.


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Ah yes, of course. Everything is women's fault, including deadbeat fathers. Silly me, I forgot for a moment.

Every person chooses the way he/she will behave. A deadbeat dad chooses to be one. What didn't the mother choose? She didn't choose a decent man to make a home with and have a commitment before bringing new humans into the world. And that is no one's fault but her own.

Quote:

I am sorry to hear that you would judge yourself so harshly had it not worked out.









ETA - I think this really is the crux of it. Women judge ourselves so, so harshly, especially where our mothering is concerned. And how can we be more accepting/lenient in our treatment of others, when we cannot manage to give that gift to ourselves?
We are already too permissive as a culture, too pc. Perhaps if we all judged ourselves more honestly we'd be held to a higher standard of behavior and the world would be a better place. And it's especially necessary to judge ourselves more closely when it comes to our parenting because we are responsilbe for other human beings. That's huge, and it demands a great deal of respect, reflection, judgement, and at times, exhaustion, inconvenience and sacrifice. And we should feel shame when we fail, that doesn't mean we shut down and give up, we strive to do better next time.


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
Every person chooses the way he/she will behave. A deadbeat dad chooses to be one. What didn't the mother choose? She didn't choose a decent man to make a home with and have a commitment before bringing new humans into the world. And that is no one's fault but her own.....

Good thing people never change AFTER you marry them. Oh, wait..


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Boingo, Boingo, didn't you know? According to the Cult of Personal Responsibility, you should always be able to see what the results of your choices will be in the future, so that you can make the correct ones. If you have inadequate information with which to make such projections, it is your responsibility to find this information (even if you are not aware that you are lacking it). If you choose unwisely and bad things happen to you, it's just proof that you made a poor decision, and you need to take responsibility for that!


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## Nisupulla (Jun 16, 2006)

No argument there, boingo82, sleep deprivation and severe pain, definitely correlated to depression and you can throw colic in to.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0502090732.htm


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
Every person chooses the way he/she will behave.

I disagree with this statement.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
And we should feel shame when we fail, that doesn't mean we shut down and give up, we strive to do better next time.

I disagree with the shame aspect of failing. It is possible to learn a lesson and do better (if we see the need) without being shamed.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I'd rather be formula fed than have a mama who thinks we should feel shame when we fail.

ETA - And I am rapidly developing a crush on Nora'sMama.


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## hawkfeather (Jan 18, 2005)

I commented on the "deppression" issue, and i will share that i am not commenting on an individual's experience, but if we are advocating bf'ing than there is an obvious reason to clarify that deppression is not 'caused' by breastfeeding for the benefit of those choosing to bf or not.

A personal difficult situation should not be a reflection on breastfeeding in general.. but rather on a person's experience.. so seperating her story from clincal causes of bodliy harm is speaking more about ALL breastfeeders and not one person. Saying that BREASTFEEDING does not cause depression is NOT saying this woman was not depressed.

There is a difference between saying "no not EVERY woman who breastfeeds is risking sever clincal depression".. and saying "NO this individual did NOT struggle".


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## hawkfeather (Jan 18, 2005)

I really do not think you can decide a woman who marries a deadbeat is accountable for his in actions?????

I married a man who became violent over time..as have many empowered and strong women. And I really do not think undermining a woman's ability to make choices governing her life has much to do with ff'ing or bf'ing.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Aww, thismama, the feeling's mutual!







:


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## BettysMommy (Dec 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
And we should feel shame when we fail, that doesn't mean we shut down and give up, we strive to do better next time.

Am I the only one that does *not* find shame to be *motivating*?

Oh, wait. I should preface this by saying that I am one of those moms with a _genuine mental illness_. I am bipolar, and have been treated for it for years (well before my first pregnancy). Moreover, I am one of those women who canNOT go unmedicated. I take several medications for my illness, and it's taken years to find a combo that's even adequate at keeping me "sane". When I found out I was pregnant the first time, the first questions out of my mouth (to the doctors) were about my medications and the safety of my baby. I wanted very much to breastfeed, and did my homework before giving it a try. I got back into therapy and found a new psychiatrist. I consulted several LCs, and eventually got my psych doctor in contact with Dr. Hale directly. They very cautiously gave me the go-ahead to try. And I did. DD had a decent latch (even with one slightly flat nipple), but nothing was going to fix the bigger problem: my milk literally never came in. I had no supply. I was feeding DD constantly, and pumping in between, and she was still losing weight. I was getting no sleep, and was certainly discouraged by the lack of progress. After 4 weeks, we agreed that it wasn't going to work. I began supplementing, and though I continued to pump, there just wasn't any milk. I was completely bottle-feeding by 6 weeks. I had good support. My DH was behind me 100%, our ped was on board, the LC from my ped's office worked with me on numerous occasions, as did the folks at WIC. It just wasn't to be. And every time the subject comes up, I feel the need to explain every detail, lest I be judged for failing my DD.

I'm due next month with DD#2, and was hoping to be able to try again this time. In the last two years, I'd managed to wean off of two meds, and change another. I researched the meds I'm still on, and there's only one that's a problem. So I got in touch with my ped's LC, and asked her opinion. She did some research of her own, and consulted with my ped, and very reluctantly told me they thought it was not a good idea. I'm still heartbroken. But the fact of the matter is that even if I tried and was successful, the baby would have to be monitored heavily (weekly blood draws, etc.). The LC said she was never so sorry to have to advise me as she was, but that this is really what's best for both mine and my baby's health. And as much as I hate it, I know she's right. This is a good LC, who truly wouldn't advise someone against bf unless there was a darn good reason (which is why I like her). I'm still upset about it.

But you know what? I'm sick of having to justify my "choices" every time the subject comes up. None of this was my choice. I sure as hell don't enjoy being bipolar. And I hate it that I am a slave to the medications - but the person I am without them is not one you'd want to know. I tried hard (to bf) the first time; I truly did. And I treasure every moment of what little bf relationship we had. But I cannot spend a lifetime feeling guilty over what could NOT be. And shaming me does nothing to motivate me to change, nor does it further the cause of lactivism.

I'm sure that there are probably women who claim it was a strain on their "mental health" - and for me that's insulting to those of us with genuine mental health issues. But you (general) don't get to decide whose mental anguish is real and whose is exaggerated. I suppose IRL when you genuinely know the person, you might be able to make that call. But even then, making them feel shame isn't going to help. As I think a PP said several pages back (sorry, I'm running out of time to look back), that kind of attitude only serves to further alienate - when what we need to do is educate.

Forgive me for rambling (and repeating much of what's already been said). But I feel strongly about this and have been debating contributing to this thread for days. The OP's question/point was (is) a valuable one, IMHO.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82*
But why are you personally the judge of how anybody else feels? Are you like this IRL?
I will also say that if a person tells me that it was too much for them, I will take their word for it! It is not MY PLACE to sit there and grill them to make sure that they tried hard enough.

I don't know how much clearer I could possibly (and repeatedly) state that I am nodding politely through all this irl & not 'grilling' anyone, but came to a forum of _fellow lactivists_ to vent my frustration.

Some seem to have appointed themselves 'the compassionate side' in this debate (which makes the rest of us?














& are determined to throw the 's' word at us whether or not we say or do anything to warrant it. If I decide to start tossing 'shame' at folks in actuality, I will not be ambiguous about its implementation, trust me.

'Women who feel depressed after birthing can still bf.' YOU'RE SHAMING!

'People with mental health issues are often more responsive to treatment they have sought out themselves.' YOU'RE SHAMING!

'Breastfeeding does not cause (or contribute other than in the most peripheral way) to clinical depression.' SHAME!

:yawning:


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## hawkfeather (Jan 18, 2005)

I have noticed the word *shame* rearing it's face a lot latley too..especially on the lactivist forum.

I really do have to wonder if people find lactivists so judgmental why come there?

This thread is in a breastfeeding forum when you see the other posts most are new moms who desperatley seek support. I am not sure what the point of this is..a new mom is is overwhelmed with hormones and struggling to nurse reading that breastfeeding can *_cause_* depression?..

This board is here to advocate and support breastfeeding, and yes there are few who take both sides of this to the extreme but it is rare.

And I am un-sure of the intention of this thread in amongst moms who may already be having difficulties with nursing?


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## sharon71 (May 27, 2005)

How can we be a true lactivist if we just throw up ours hands and say "oh well"
Sometimes it does take "judging" a mom in order for her to see something in a different light.
I'm thankful everyday for the lactivists who encouraged me to continue nursing my DD,who are encouraging me to do CLW ,who are encouraging me to not give up and resort to FF this time around.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

TigerTail, I don't think I understand your post.









BettysMommy, thank you for sharing your story.


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

BettysMommy: sounds you've been responsible. That's one of the main points I'm trying to advocate. You took the time to research, ask questions, you gave it, from what you said, your all, and consulted with multiple professionals. I applaud you. My point is that most women do not, and that is shamefull. And you are obviously not the only one who finds shame to be non-motivational, although that's a new one on me. People generally want to avoid shame and therefore will make good choices to avoid it. More likely what's going on is that people who make poor choices don't want to be confronted with them and so they deem anyone or anything that makes them feel the shame they should feel as "bad" and "judgemental".

TigerTail, ITA

And it's really unfair to make assumptions about what a person is like IRL from what they type. I've never told any woman that she was bad or a failure, or anything else like that. Most of the time I don't even comment since it's so far in the past that there's just no point. But when a pregnant friend says she's thinking of not even trying this time because of what happend last time, you bet I asked what happend! I was able to give some suggestions, edify her about the benefits, and help her get some numbers together so she had them ready in case. Thankfully she didn't need them that time, but if I hadn't edified her, and helped her feel prepared to take on the problems and shown her where to find solutions, she would not have even tried!

And since this seems to be the least understood of what I have said, let me say it yet again: *Each person is responsible for his/her own actions*. Not your neighbor's actions, not your spouse's actions, not your children's actions, not anyone else's actions. Is that clear enough? Some people seem to have a great deal of difficulty comprehending the written word







:


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## mama-a-llama (Feb 8, 2006)

Well, to take this a slightly different direction. . .

What about the impact on the rest of the family, when there are older children? If difficulties persist for longer than, say, a month or two. Does a baby's right to breastmilk trump the right of the other children to their mama's time and attention? Do we expect that a mama should nurse and pump to increase supply, or pump exclusively, for a year or more, or feel shame if she stops?


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## hawkfeather (Jan 18, 2005)

i don't think there are any rules about how long a woman *has* to do anything! I believe most bf'ing advocates just wish more would make a true effort to feed breastmilk...pumping and tube feeding and trying to nurse.. it is all hard work and more than an effort.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
Some people seem to have a great deal of difficulty comprehending the written word







:

This is the second time (that I've seen) that you've posted something about people obviously not understanding what you are writing. You might consider that it is quite possible to *understand* what someone is saying and to still *vehemently disagree*. I think that your stance on personal responsibility is *crystal-clear*. However, *I do not agree with it*.

Just so we're clear. I'm sure you will have no trouble understanding the written word.


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## GalateaDunkel (Jul 22, 2005)

It's interesting to observe how invested some people are in the possibility that others' experiences may be invalid. In some cases it appears that the opportunity to project negative emotional energy onto others is actually the primary motivation, and the context of "lactivism" is merely opportunistic. It seems unlikely that a person whose general desire is to interact positively and supportively with others would objectively but regretfully conclude that lactivism objectively necessitates shaming etc., and then reluctantly apply herself to shaming others as an unpleasant but necessary task. Rather it appears that persons with a predisposition or desire to shame others construct ad hoc arguments to justify the negative behavior.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GalateaDunkel*
It's interesting to observe how invested some people are in the possibility that others' experiences may be invalid. In some cases it appears that the opportunity to project negative emotional energy onto others is actually the primary motivation, and the context of "lactivism" is merely opportunistic. It seems unlikely that a person whose general desire is to interact positively and supportively with others would objectively but regretfully conclude that lactivism objectively necessitates shaming etc., and then reluctantly apply herself to shaming others as an unpleasant but necessary task. Rather it appears that persons with a predisposition or desire to shame others construct ad hoc arguments to justify the negative behavior.


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## Kajira (May 23, 2006)

This topic just makes me want to cry.
Esp since I've been reading so many horror stories at another site, where ff moms are giving their stories at being given bad information, slammed by LLL's, refused help by LC's and questioned on why have children if they will not solely bf for 2 years









We are with the shame and disgracing of ff moms, they just dig in deeper, like when a bf-ing mom's MIL starts to question them, and no good will ever come of it.

But then does anyone who believes it's ok to shame a mother ever ask if it's pumped bm in that bottle???


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## momtoalexsarah (May 21, 2005)

I think that only the mother herself can say when enough is enough. Yes there are many moms that quit too soon or never BF at all - that is a result of poor BFing education. For the moms that really do try there may be a point where they really can't do it anymore - and that should be up to them and they shouldn't have to explain themselves.
My DS was supplmented from 6-13 months because I was Pregnant and my milk dried up. He contiued to nurse and I Tandum nursed him untill he self weaned at 18m.
My first DD Nursed till 11 month and self weaned because my milk dried up. I tried for weeks to get her back to the breast but she wouldn't - I cried many nights for that lack of this relationship with her. But there was nothing I could do.
With my Last DD she was born a premie- spent time in NICU and I had to pump for her and bottle feed (sns and fingerfeeding took far too long when chasing 2 toddlers) I had told myself that I would pump and bottle feed for six months if it came to that. Pumping with 2 toddlers terrorizing the house is hard not to mention slightly dangerious at times (as you can't keep 100% eye contact on them). We where lucky that my DD latched at 10 weeks and have been going fine since. But that being said you may call me a bad mother but I would have had no regrets about giving my DD formula at 6m if she didn't nurse by that point. I personally couldn't justify neglecting my older children for the time that it takes to pump feed and wash the stuff everyday. It woudn't have been fair to them or anyone.


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## hawkfeather (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GalateaDunkel*
In some cases it appears that the opportunity to project negative emotional energy onto others is actually the primary motivation, and the context of "lactivism" is merely opportunistic.

Do you honestly think that people latch on to the idea of advocating breastfeeding just because they need an excuse to look down on others?

I am hoping this comment was about an individual or an experince and not a comment about _lacivisits_, I didn't get the impression it was.

I think it is rare to meet a lactivist who actually _shames_ another, sure it happens, just like it happens that ff'ers have called me a nazi for supporting breastfeeding awareness. As long as you/we can seperate the individuals from a movement or cause i think it is valid to question the negative aspects.

From my personal experince most the conversations i have had involving me as a bf'ing advocate and a ff'er momma.. most the *shaming* has nothing to do with anything i have said or implied. It is more about assumptions. Most the shaming i have seen invloves me being put down for being so judgmental..when again, I haven't said or implied anything about any individual.
In this thread it seems to be more individual's butting heads than anything.


----------



## mama-a-llama (Feb 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hawkfeather*
i don't think there are any rules about how long a woman *has* to do anything! I believe most bf'ing advocates just wish more would make a true effort to feed breastmilk...pumping and tube feeding and trying to nurse.. it is all hard work and more than an effort.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *momtoalexsarah*
For the moms that really do try there may be a point where they really can't do it anymore - and that should be up to them and they shouldn't have to explain themselves.

Right. But around here there can be a "2 years or bust" attitude, as someone put it way back in this thread. And a lot of talk about a baby's right/entitlement to mother's milk. That's why I asked where the rights of the rest of the family (including the mother?) come in. Basically, I feel that there is sometimes not enough respect for the juggling act of bfing difficulty. And I have seen mothers having to explain themselves as to why they stopped.


----------



## hawkfeather (Jan 18, 2005)

is there really a 2 year rule here?

i have five kids they all nursed until differant ages and i am happy with that.
every woman's personal choices with breastfeeding do not reflect her opinions on other women and what they do. I am not questioning your experince here, I just haven't been made aware of any expectations for how long i will nurse-


----------



## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hawkfeather*
is there really a 2 year rule here?

i have five kids they all nursed until differant ages and i am happy with that.
every woman's personal choices with breastfeeding do not reflect her opinions on other women and what they do. I am not questioning your experince here, I just haven't been made aware of any expectations for how long i will nurse-

I think I mentioned the 2 year rule.

And it is an assumption on my part, coming from reading posts from women who apologize for not nursing (or in some cases pumping) to age two.

Or comments from other women about someone "weaning early", when the baby was nursed for over a year - also on the "Surviving motherhood" thread about how silly and wrong the other parents were for pressuring the mom to wean her 18 month old. Also folks quoting the WHO recommendations.

Basically, it seems to me that there is an implicit assumption that nursing for 2 years should be the universal goal (with 1 year being a bare minimum). And that if you don't nurse your babies for two years, then you gave them less than they deserve or need.

This 2 year mark is WAY different than that promoted in popular culture. Most pro-bfing moms who are not lactivists that I know believe that nursing to one year is a fantastic feat. One mom I know proudly said "And I nursed that boy for 6 whole months! I deserve a medal" - despite not having any real problems nursing. Another mom told me confidentially, "I nursed my last for nearly a YEAR! Can you believe that!" My neighbor shared that her youngest daughter nursed her last "for a really long time, 8 months, I think."

Please note that these are great moms and great women, who care a heck of a lot about their kids. They are well educated, sahms, who feed their kids wholesome food and are pretty aware.

These moms are going to get pretty darned defensive if told that they should have nursed for 2 years because it focuses on what they *didn't* do, vs on what they *did* do. And when people get defensive, they stop listening.

We got a lot of work to do, people, a lot of work to do, if we want to change the world.










Siobhan


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## momtoalexsarah (May 21, 2005)

I have to put out to the mothers whom belive that you must nurse a child for 2 years to have nursed at all - what about the child that self-weans proir to two years. Both of my older children did - in spite of my best efforts to prevent it. If a child tells you "no nummys I'm a big boy nummys for my sister" then there really is nothing you can do - besides maybe pump and feed it in a cup.
I fully intend to nurse my last DD as long as she wants to - if that is two years or more I will be thrilled. But if it's not and the weaning is by her choice then so be it.
Why I had decided 6 months as a pumping goal was not because I belived that is when she had had the full benifit of my BM - quite the oposite she needs it as long as I can give it to her. But I was not going to sacafice the wellbeing- safety and relationship with my older children just to provide exclusive BM to my youngest.
When you have more then one child you need to find a balance. BFing an only child is one thing - BFing (or pumping for) a baby and chasing 2 toddlers is whole different ball game.


----------



## sharon71 (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momtoalexsarah*
I have to put out to the mothers whom belive that you must nurse a child for 2 years to have nursed at all - what about the child that self-weans proir to two years. Both of my older children did - in spite of my best efforts to prevent it. If a child tells you "no nummys I'm a big boy nummys for my sister" then there really is nothing you can do - besides maybe pump and feed it in a cup.
I fully intend to nurse my last DD as long as she wants to - if that is two years or more I will be thrilled. But if it's not and the weaning is by her choice then so be it.
Why I had decided 6 months as a pumping goal was not because I belived that is when she had had the full benifit of my BM - quite the oposite she needs it as long as I can give it to her. But I was not going to sacafice the wellbeing- safety and relationship with my older children just to provide exclusive BM to my youngest.
When you have more then one child you need to find a balance. BFing an only child is one thing - BFing (or pumping for) a baby and chasing 2 toddlers is whole different ball game.

I can't speak for other but to me the 2 yr thing means nursing at least 2 yrs or until my child weans themselves. So many moms wean the child before two yrs and I think the goal is to let the child decide when enough is enough and not society.
Wether the child weans at a yr or 5 yrs.


----------



## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
This is the second time (that I've seen) that you've posted something about people obviously not understanding what you are writing. You might consider that it is quite possible to *understand* what someone is saying and to still *vehemently disagree*. I think that your stance on personal responsibility is *crystal-clear*. However, *I do not agree with it*.

Just so we're clear. I'm sure you will have no trouble understanding the written word.









:


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## hawkfeather (Jan 18, 2005)

I don't know if anyone _can_ put anything out there 'to' the mommas who say you should nurse until two. i am pretty sure it is a generalization.

It seems to have gone from shaming for not nursing to shaming for not nursing until two? Comments in passing about the WHO recomendations, or citing a thread about weaning an 18 months old might start to paint an ideal that 'lactivists' think we should nurse until two, but i don't think anyone can defend or argue against generalizations that haven't really been stated.

It seems like a lot of the points and issues that 'shame' anyone here haven't even been said half the time.. more than half. There are exremists, on both ends..and maybe the tone here is one that supports child led weaning- or nursing until two but that still says nothing about judgment or shaming.


----------



## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
This is the second time (that I've seen) that you've posted something about people obviously not understanding what you are writing. You might consider that it is quite possible to *understand* what someone is saying and to still *vehemently disagree*. I think that your stance on personal responsibility is *crystal-clear*. However, *I do not agree with it*.

Just so we're clear. I'm sure you will have no trouble understanding the written word.

I have no problem with disagreement. I will not tolerate misquoting, putting words in my mouth, or making outrageous leaps from a generalization I've made. All of which seem to be running rampant in this thread.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
I have no problem with disagreement. I will not tolerate misquoting, putting words in my mouth, or making outrageous leaps from a generalization I've made. All of which seem to be running rampant in this thread.

OK, please quote. I hope that I haven't done any of the above and if you can show me where I have, I will humbly apologize.


----------



## treemom2 (Oct 1, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
I'm absolutely not a Lactivist! I understand that women are people, but mothers are people with obligations and responsiblities. Finding excuses to dismiss those is what I object to. It's not all about you (general) anymore. When you (general) decide to have children, you don't give up being a seperate person, but nor is your life about what *you* want, what *you* feel. Women are so wrapped up in themselves, and they seem to be able to ferret out any excuse to remain that way. That's what I'm tired of. That's what I'm against.

I guess I am not a lactivist as well because like Party of 5 I also think sometimes we are so quick as a society of women to excuse our bad parenting decisions. Always something or someone to blame other than ourselves and always another group of women to pat them on the back and say it's okay--don't worry about it, you did the best you could--hmph.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treemom2*
I guess I am not a lactivist as well because like Party of 5 I also think sometimes we are so quick as a society of women to excuse our bad parenting decisions. Always something or someone to blame other than ourselves and always another group of women to pat them on the back and say it's okay--don't worry about it, you did the best you could--hmph.

Is that such a bad thing?







Men have _always_ had THAT.

I just think that there are better ways to increase the BFing rate that don't involve shaming or tsk-tsking women who often really just don't have a lot of choices about their lives.

When I see harried checkers at Sam's with pics of their babies taped to their checkstands, I realize that it's not helpful for me, a middle-class married SAHM with a fairly financially comfortable life, to condemn them for not breastfeeding. Do they have clean, private places to pump? Lactation consultants? Refrigerators to store milk?

Does Sam's Club offer decent maternity leaves? Do the daycare providers know how to handle EBM?

Have I ever experienced the difficulty of longterm pumping, firsthand?

Or, to think of it another way, don't a lot of European countries have near-universal BF rates-- the result of governmental policies and social attitudes that encourage breastfeeding and paint it positively?

I'd say it's obvious that widespread societal influences that positively promote BF do a lot more than a bunch of moms kvetching on a message board about the evils of formula-feeding moms... particularly when we're in an easier position to BF, through marriage to "richer" men.









Who am I kidding, after all? If I had to work 12 hours a day at a crap job with no privacy, would I have really lasted this long in the BF department?

Hells no.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bluebottle*
i don't think it's the majority by any means, but yes, a small but very vocal minority latch on to the idea of aggressively advocating for what they believe in, because they like to feel superior to others.

Yes. And I think there is an unfortunate trend among women to judge, criticize, berate, shame, and generally deflate each other.

A convenient tool of the patriarchy.

I see this trend in "mommy wars" of all kinds. And I feel like I lose interest in advocating for particular parenting techniques, no matter how much I honour and believe in them, when it turns into this.


----------



## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
Is that such a bad thing?







Men have _always_ had THAT.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
A convenient tool of the patriarchy.

Why are some groups of women so afraid of men and anything masculine? Why is anything remotely masculine automatically oppressive and wrong? Women are the gender who's so much better at so completely tearing their peers down. It's women who can't handle competition. Men love it, and welcome it, and why is that bad? But women are the truely scary half of society. And btw, as someone who was adamantly discouraged from bringing fathers into this conversation, I have to ask why some are now male bashing at all? Apparently men have no place in a breastfeeding discussion


----------



## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bri276*

I've pumped more than a half ounce of blood, straight blood, out of my left breast on several occasions, had five bouts of mastitis, open sores on the areola, plugged ducts, blisters. I've sat hunched over a pump in hospitals, cars, at 3 am in my living room crying my eyes out from exhaustion and self pity and frustration wanting to quit more than I ever wanted to quit anything, ever..

Me too...........









I havent read all the posts yet, but here's how it was for us.

nursed dd on demand, at night, wherever all the time, until she self weaned due to my pregnancy. Just decided she was done. other than sore nipples at first, and mastitis often(due to a cyst on my right ribcage), and severe biting, we never had issues. Just nursed.

Along comes baby 2...and wow. I had no idea nursing could be so hard....

He was ok at first, then he began to decline developmentally and physically. He couldnt do anything. He was allergic to something in the milk. I did the elim diet. I did hte reverse elim diet. I ate almost nothing but rice and pears. Still he cried. STill he didnt grow.

Then one day I saw a picture of him....I had taken a naked butt pic of him after a bath...he was about 5.5 months old at the time. And what I saw horrified me./...........

you know those pics you see on TV of malnourished babies in third world countries?? Ribs sticking out?? hips sticking out??head huge on a tiny body??

That was my son.

At 6 months old, he was barely barely 4 lbs heavier than his birth weight. And losing fast.

I had LC's. I had herbs. I had every darn LLL leader I could get my hand on. And nothing was working. I had plenty of milk!! It was something *IN"* the milk.

After seeing that picture, I had a breakdown. I started supplementing him. After a while of trial and error, we found the perfect certain brand of formula, in a certain form. That's it.

And he began to grow. And develop. My 7 month old was like a newborn...all he could do was raise his head up ..he couldnt roll. couldnt do anythinmg.

Then we started letting him have one or two bottles a day...and tthe difference was amazing. He began to GROW!!~ ANd fill out..after two weeks on the right formula, he rolled!!

And two weeks later, he sat up....and on and on.

I tried very hard to continue nursing him.....and I always wanted him to nurse a long time...but it just didnt happen for us.

to this day he has severe allergies..he can only tolerate about 5 foods, and his formula is one of those 5. He is 13 months old..

At 9 months my mlk was gone...and it was heartbreaking. to have a baby that isnt nursing is the most absurd thing ever...

and yes..I am mortified at playgroup, at LLL , when I have to pull a bottle out and feed him. But sometimes I have no choice.

And There came a point that I had to say .." You know what?/ I cant martyr my baby **JUST** for the sake of Exclusive breastfeeding. " If I had, I cannot imagine how sick he would be right now.

some folks refuse to give a drop of formula ever. I couldnt do that...I had to do what was best for him. It was so hard..and I still miss nursing....









hopefully we wont have this problem with the next baby..


----------



## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg*
But there are some.

I wonder what would have happened if my situation hadn't improved (or if it regresses). What if I was so physically compromised, exhausted, frustrated, and depressed that I was neglecting my baby...leaving her to cry alone in a room for hours b/c I literally couldn't cope with taking care of her? (This is not so far-fetched--there actually were times where I had to set down a crying baby and walk away for a minute, b/c I was too wracked with sobs to even hold her; there were also some times when I felt "numb" to her and didn't respond as soon as I should have.). I don't think that nursing in and of itself causes depression, but in my case the two were very closely linked--because extreme physical pain DOES contribute to depression, as do extreme frustration, isolation, and feelings of inadequacy, all of which, in my case, were related to nursing. Should we risk compromising a baby's health--mental and/or physical--in other ways, just so long as he has breastmilk?

I feel deeply and passionately about bfing. That's why I'm sticking it out through so much difficulty and pain. But it's frankly shocking to me that we at MDC can't admit that there are SOME limits to what a person can endure, and that those limits vary from person to person.

Exactly. I agree that there are rare cases of women who truly cannot breastfeed, due to surgery, etc. And then there are the others....if you are mentally unstable, and pain and stress are makingit worse..it would be better for a baby to have a warm bottle of formula from a loving pair of arms , than a mom who is about to lose it trying to hold her and nurse her.

I had severe ppd after dd, and wow...it was ro ugh..


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## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spughy*
If she can't face herself after she feeds her baby formula (exclusively, I mean - any bm is better than none at all) then she will keep breastfeeding no matter what. This is why I think society needs to demonize formula a LOT more and make using it a shameful thing. (Within reason - it has medical applications that should not be ignored. But it should be treated as a drug, not a food.)

I happily face myself every day.

And for us, formula IS almost like a drug, and not a food. Without it, he would probably die. It supplies 80 % or more of his nutrition in a day...


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## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *may05mommy*

I don't judge formula-feeding mothers, not most of them anyway. I judge the formula companies for throwing samples at pregnant women and new mothers "just in case"







. I judge doctors who are quick to push formula, and a society that tries to relegate nursing mothers to dirty restrooms while allowing formula-feeding mothers to feed their children out in the open. I judge the so-called parenting "experts" in the mainstream who push babies to sleep through the night years before they're ready, acting as if a baby sleeping through the night at age, oh, three weeks is a sign of good parenting.







.

Beautifully said...







:


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## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82*
We need to find a balance between:

Keep at it, it will get better, do not give up!

and

I don't care if your nipples are FALLING OFF. You WILL breastfeed or you are a BAD MOTHER who is denying your child their BIRTHRIGHT because you're SELFISH.

I love this


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## gethane (Dec 30, 2003)

I certainly don't think we should shame women or demonize formula. We DO need a cultural shift where women aren't taught by culture that bfing is "gross". Look at the ridiculous outcry of that baby magazine with the breastfeeding baby on the cover. The most insane part about that was how the news reported it. "Over a quarter of the people who responded were upset with the cover!!!" oh no! How about "Three quarters of the respondents had a postive reaction to the cover." More women would naturally choose to breastfeed if our culture was different.

However, on the other side, I certainly don't think its helpful to insinuate that bfing "causes" depression. That's just one more myth that lactivism has to fight. One more excuse for the cultural negativity against breastfeeding. One more thing that the formula companies can insinuate in their ads.

Either side spouting untruths are hurtful to the issue of breastfeeding. It's hurtful to breastfeeding as a whole when forumla feeding mom's perpetuate myths about breastfeeding. It isn't helpful to let these myths stand. It isn't about attacking the women, its about attacking the myths and untruths our culture perpetuates about breastfeeding.

Bottom line: Other countries DO have higher breastfeeding initialization and continuation rates. Let's emulate that. Why reinvent the wheel if we already have examples of success?


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bamamom*

Then one day I saw a picture of him....I had taken a naked butt pic of him after a bath...he was about 5.5 months old at the time. And what I saw horrified me./...........

you know those pics you see on TV of malnourished babies in third world countries?? Ribs sticking out?? hips sticking out??head huge on a tiny body??

That was my son.

At 6 months old, he was barely barely 4 lbs heavier than his birth weight. And losing fast.

I had LC's. I had herbs. I had every darn LLL leader I could get my hand on. And nothing was working. I had plenty of milk!! It was something *IN"* the milk.


OMG this is almost word for word what happend to my best friend with her 3rd baby! She finally ended up giving her some kind of goat milk formula? I forget exactly what it was. I think they determined that because she had low thyroid her milk was lacking something. This time she had to take dom peridone (sp?) the whole time and was able to nurse almost a full year.


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## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Moonprysm*
He stayed on my breasts almost 24 hours. And 2 or 3 weeks later when I took him to the pediatrician, he was malnurished and dehydrated.

Nobody should ever be made to feel guilty for having to use formula. Do I judge the mothers that ff from birth? Yeah. But to tell a woman that she didn't try hard enough, or that her reasons for stopping breastfeeding aren't justified is terrible.

I'd heard this "most of women who stop was because of misinformation" crap. And if that hadn't been so drilled into my head that it's possible for almost everyone, then maybe we wouldn't have gone through the terrible time we went through with my son already being early, low birth weight, and then malnutritioned because of my stupid pride.

absolutely..same here. malnourished and dehydrated...ugh.


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
... And btw, as someone who was adamantly discouraged from bringing fathers into this conversation, I have to ask why some are now male bashing at all? Apparently men have no place in a breastfeeding discussion









Speaking of twisting words, that is NOT EVEN what I said. You asked where the men were, and I said that they *usually* don't post on forums/parenting sites, let alone ones called "mothering". My DH spends all of his internet time playing World Of Warcraft. Believe me, I have TRIED to get him to post here.


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## Dido (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
Why are some groups of women so afraid of men and anything masculine? Why is anything remotely masculine automatically oppressive and wrong? Women are the gender who's so much better at so completely tearing their peers down. It's women who can't handle competition. Men love it, and welcome it, and why is that bad? But women are the truely scary half of society. And btw, as someone who was adamantly discouraged from bringing fathers into this conversation, I have to ask why some are now male bashing at all? Apparently men have no place in a breastfeeding discussion









You know, all along I have been wondering why Partyof5's posts are so belligerent and intolerant. Now I know why: she's just plain hostile to women. I'm not sure why she's posting here, but I am sure that a woman who hates women has nothing to teach me about breastfeeding. If I'm interested in having misogyny be an important part of my day, I'm sure I can find a talk radio station that fits the bill. Meanwhile, though, I'm on Mothering. Now how's that ignore function work again?


----------



## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *USAmma*

I totally agree that in theory a child has the right to breastmilk. I also believe that a child has a right to a mother who can take care of and nurture him or her. If you have to choose between one or the other, choose the latter.

Thank you Amma...


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## familylove (Mar 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
Stop the blame, finger-pointing, excusess, and do some hard work. I'm 5 yrs away from that place and still not perfect, but I'm not in the pit either. I pulled myself out. It's a power every person has in them if they *choose* to use it.

WOW! I think this is the most demeaning, judgemental, ill-informed comment I have read to date on MDC. (Although, sadly, it is used in society at-large to perpetuate the idea that mental illness merely requires pulling oneself up by the bootstraps.) I do not *choose* to have bipolar disorder. I did not *choose* to be depressed throughout my pregnancy and then thrown into a psychotic episode of PPD. You know what I did choose? I went without the medications that would have pulled me out of my hell for a year so I could BF my son. (Let the flaming begin that I *only* BF a year). B/c I waited a year to begin medical treatment, I got to enjoy three years of being an unstable bipolar. You thought about suicide once or twice? Honey, I thought about it every day. DH had to quit his job to take care of me and DS. He couldn't leave the house b/c my urges to hurt myself were so strong. THAT is how committed to BF and my child I am. I also will not be able to have any more biological children due to my illness...do you really think that is what I *choose*?

So yes, I stopped at NOTHING to BF my son, at the expense of my own mental health. But b/c I have been to hell, there is NO way I will judge another woman for making her own *informed* decision about BF. I would love to see every baby breastfed exclusively, but we don't live in a perfect world. All we can do is support one another and provide information and resources.

I realize my tone is very snarky, but what you said was extremely hurtful (or what I understood you to say) and required a response.

ETA: I read Party's comment and hit "Reply" before bothering to read the posts that ensued. I'm sorry for repeating much of what had been covered in pps.


----------



## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
But women are the truely scary half of society.











Edited...because it will be taken as sarcastic.








to everyone, seriously!


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## hawkfeather (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bluebottle*
i don't think it's the majority by any means, but yes, a small but very vocal minority latch on to the idea of aggressively advocating for what they believe in, because they like to feel superior to others.

i have seen it in all of the activist circles i've ever been near. "lactivism" is no different.

xoa

There is always a vocal minority, but i do not think anyone can decide what another's intentions are based on an expressed opinion.
Being called a nazi by ff'ers might tell me that a small minority has little respect for those who died in the holocaust, but really like most vocal minorites it really just tells me some are ignorant, or perhaps passionate..but really it is usually worth ignoring.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
Why are some groups of women so afraid of men and anything masculine? Why is anything remotely masculine automatically oppressive and wrong? Women are the gender who's so much better at so completely tearing their peers down. It's women who can't handle competition. Men love it, and welcome it, and why is that bad? But women are the truely scary half of society. And btw, as someone who was adamantly discouraged from bringing fathers into this conversation, I have to ask why some are now male bashing at all? Apparently men have no place in a breastfeeding discussion









Whoa.

Talking about patriarchy's impact on mothers and babies is not male bashing, or fearing masculinity.

And "women are the truly scary half of society?" Wow, I feel very sorry for you that you feel that way, it must be really hard.

You and I are so far apart in our views that I don't think we will ever understand where the other is coming from.


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82*
Speaking of twisting words, that is NOT EVEN what I said. You asked where the men were, and I said that they *usually* don't post on forums/parenting sites, let alone ones called "mothering". My DH spends all of his internet time playing World Of Warcraft. Believe me, I have TRIED to get him to post here.

No, no one actually said those words, but that's the tone here. That men should stay out of it completey, even if they do help create these children! And yes there are men on this site and if you haven't run into them that's your problem. No they don't post nearly as much as women, but just because the site is called "mothering" doesn't exlude men. Obviously since there's a Dad's forum right here also! Besides, that was more rhetorical, I wasn't speaking of this forum, I meant where are the men in these children's lives who should be supporting and advocating their children getting the best nutrition possible, whenever possible!

And yes, my statements about women were too broad and made in haste. I'm only hostile to women who think the world revolves around them and men are worthless and children are so resiliant that they will survive whatever the mother chooses to put them through. And if I do seem hostile it's because I've never been surrounded by so many wishy washy yet militant, near sighted, blame shifting people in my life. Taking them in small doses is fine, but to find such a huge gathering of them in one place is quite disturbing!


----------



## gethane (Dec 30, 2003)

:







:


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Women are scary?







:


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
No, no one actually said those words, but that's the tone here. That men should stay out of it completey, even if they do help create these children!

Could you point me to where somebody said men should stay out of it completely? Coz I haven't seen that.

My own view is that men should be a hell of a lot more supportive, and that it is not okay for men to sit back after a full night's sleep and *decide* whether or not a woman is going to bf (and all too often they decide women are NOT going to bf).


----------



## hawkfeather (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *familylove*
I realize my tone is very snarky, but what you said was extremely hurtful (or what I understood you to say) and required a response.

I honeslty do not think you sound snarky at all, you are sharing something personal and relevant.


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

Nevermind, I realize it's not useful to make statements that could lead to fighting about personal/political/social opinions. That is not related to the topic of this thread, and not what I intended. One thing that is related to recent discussions is that we all have different styles, and we can all reach people. No one wants to live in a world where everyone is the same (at least I don't think so). Different people are reached by different methods. We should all be respectful IRL when dealing with women one on one. That doesn't have to have anything to do with our personal opinions about her choices or circumstances. We can still reach someone even if we don't agree with their choices or stances.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

What I don't understand about these threads (rampant judgmentalism of other mothers aside), is this...

We have all discussed on this board before, in-depth, and I think most realize, that in order to truly improve breastfeeding rates (which I think is a goal most everyone here wants, safe to say?), the way to go about it is through changing :

1. Formula marketing practices
2. Cultural biases (breasts are sexual, bf'ing is gross, etc.)
3. Education (mainly of lactation consultants, pediatricians, etc.)

Attacking individual mothers and shaming/blaming really doesn't do anything to change things. Surely no one thinks that?

And yet still we have people posting to specifically point out situations where they think mothers should feel ashamed, guilty, negligent, and all variety of negative things.

I don't understand it. If the goal is to normalize breastfeeding and improve rates of breastfeeding... why don't we focus more on getting policies changes... support provided... ?

Why this obsession with attacking other mothers?

I guess my post is more of a plea. It is not up to you (collective you) or any other person to determine whether a mother tried hard enough, or should feel guilty, or is not a good mother. It IS up to ALL of us, in my opinion, if we are lactivitists, to try to enact POSITIVE changes in the system that discourages breastfeeding.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
Nevermind, I realize it's not useful to make statements that could lead to fighting about personal/political/social opinions.

That's good!

Quote:

we all have different styles, and we can all reach people.
I agree that there is more than one way to approach breastfeeding advocacy. That does not mean that _all_ ways are valid, however.

Quote:

No one wants to live in a world where everyone is the same (at least I don't think so).
Agreed. But we all deserve respect, and you don't seem to respect other women. You don't trust them to make their own choices. You feel they are responsible for their failure to adequately perservere in breastfeeding (failure as defined by YOU). Please correct me if I have any of this wrong.

Quote:

Different people are reached by different methods.
Agreed, but very few people are reached by methods that rely on shaming.

Quote:

We should all be respectful IRL when dealing with women one on one.
Agreed.

Quote:

That doesn't have to have anything to do with our personal opinions about her choices or circumstances. We can still reach someone even if we don't agree with their choices or stances.
I agree with the latter sentence, but not with the former. I think that it would be very hard for me to effectively reach out to someone if I felt that they should feel shame for their actions.


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
I agree that there is more than one way to approach breastfeeding advocacy. That does not mean that _all_ ways are valid, however.

If I had said this someone would ask "who are *YOU* to judge what's valid?"









Quote:

Agreed. But we all deserve respect, and you don't seem to respect other women. You don't trust them to make their own choices. You feel they are responsible for their failure to adequately perservere in breastfeeding (failure as defined by YOU). Please correct me if I have any of this wrong.
I respect all humans in the basic way. You are making a blanket statement about all women. When you say "own choices" that does not mean "right choices". Not everyone who "fails" BFing did something wrong. I do not define BFing failure since it is different in every case. Since I can't know every woman, and I'm not an LC or MD I cannot possibly have enough info to even speculate. As I've said, I can give the most basic advice, beyond that I give phone numbers, books and websites - period!

Quote:

Agreed, but very few people are reached by methods that rely on shaming.
No one can make another person feel shame. Shame is a self initiated emotion caused by the knowledge that one has done something shameful. The desire to not feel shame motivates certain people to make good choices. Certainly there are those who are not motivated by shame, I never suggested otherwise.

Quote:

I agree with the latter sentence, but not with the former. I think that it would be very hard for me to effectively reach out to someone if I felt that they should feel shame for their actions.
I don't know why this is so hard? I've managed to help women whom I personally thought made poor choices. My goal is to educate them so they are able to make better choices. I understand it is not in the interest of obtaining my goal to enlighten them to my personal opinion of their past choices. In the case with one woman I helped, I could not change what happend with her toddler, but telling her what I thought about it would not help me get her soon to be born baby on her breast. By keeping my personal opinions out of it, I was able to educate her and her baby is now BFing


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## GalateaDunkel (Jul 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
Women are the gender who's so much better at so completely tearing their peers down.

Well, you would know.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GalateaDunkel*
Well, you would know.

Too, too true.


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## mama-a-llama (Feb 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
No one can make another person feel shame. Shame is a self initiated emotion caused by the knowledge that one has done something shameful.

I'm not sure this is true. It brings to mind at least one time I've read on these boards that a mama was happily nursing in public, until someone got in her face and told her off, that what she was doing was shameful. She _knew_ that NIP is not a shameful thing, but having someone be rude and nasty about it did make her feel shame.

Quote:

The desire to not feel shame motivates certain people to make good choices.
And unfortunately the desire not to feel shame motivates women every day not to NIP.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

This idea that shame is an internal feeling, seperate from interpersonal interaction, is a convenient way to avoid responsibility for the harm our judgments and loathing can create.


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama-a-llama*
I'm not sure this is true. It brings to mind at least one time I've read on these boards that a mama was happily nursing in public, until someone got in her face and told her off, that what she was doing was shameful. She _knew_ that NIP is not a shameful thing, but having someone be rude and nasty about it did make her feel shame.

And unfortunately the desire not to feel shame motivates women every day not to NIP.

And these are the people that really need to mind their own business. A woman was feeding a baby. Big stinking deal. Who was she harming?

(I am not flaming you. Im just angry about some people always find something to complain about. Why not complain about the guy who pee's behind the bar or behind a bush at a fair b/c he doesn't want to wait in line at the jobjohnny. You can probably tell I am a bit cranky today.)


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Party*of*5*
No one can make another person feel shame.

I completely disagree with this statement.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama-a-llama*
I'm not sure this is true. It brings to mind at least one time I've read on these boards that a mama was happily nursing in public, until someone got in her face and told her off, that what she was doing was shameful. She _knew_ that NIP is not a shameful thing, but having someone be rude and nasty about it did make her feel shame.

Very good example!


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## gethane (Dec 30, 2003)

I think part of the problem is before any of those real societal changes can occur, the U.S. HAS to stop pumping such a huge portion of our GNP into the war machine.

And I know for myself that I feel powerless to make these big changes. Yeah, I vote democrat. In Nebraska, where its completely wasted. And sometimes those feelings of powerless can turn to trying to make a change where you don't feel powerless. Which I think is the case often when we try to tear down other women for not breastfeeding. We feel so powerless to change the big picture and so frustrated that we turn our frustrations to those women who don't breastfeed.


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## Party*of*5 (Jun 26, 2006)

Wow, some of you are just plain vindictive, no matter what's said. What is this, jr. high







: But it's well known that making personal attacks to avoid responding to the issues is a tactic of the small minded.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama-a-llama*
I'm not sure this is true. It brings to mind at least one time I've read on these boards that a mama was happily nursing in public, until someone got in her face and told her off, that what she was doing was shameful. She _knew_ that NIP is not a shameful thing, but having someone be rude and nasty about it did make her feel shame.

And unfortunately the desire not to feel shame motivates women every day not to NIP.

Yes that's very sad. But NIP isn't doing anything wrong. Allowing ignorant people to have that affect on one's emotions does nothing to advance social change. I too struggle with feeling embarrassed about NIP, mainly because of my size, but if I don't do it and act totally at ease, then how can I help "the cause"? Doing the action first will usually cause the feelings to follow. It's harder than the other way around, but alot more practical.


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## Trishy (Oct 15, 2002)

Closed for admin review.


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## aggy (Feb 3, 2014)

Hi. Can you please send me your goat milk recipe. Thx!!


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