# i want to be gentle, non-coercive, non-authoritarian, etc...but...



## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

i have questions for those who are gentle, don't coerce, don't punish, don't yell, don't have consequences other than natural ones, etc... (you get the drift...)
how would you, as the parent of a 3 yo and 7 month old handle the following:

picking at younger sibling (laughing when baby cries or making loud crying noises to mimic or top the babies cries)

harming younger sibling (scratching face with a toy)

3 yo old dumping water out of the bathtub

begging for a new toy every.single.day

acting like a lunatic in the car (reaching over with foot or hand to younger brother, screeching at the top of his lungs if he notices baby asleep, stealing baby's toys, dropping or throwing his own toys and then DEMANDING they be picked up at that moment (or having a freakout if they aren't)

not sitting still to eat - ANYWHERE. freaking if i request dining room eating (preferring living room), but still not.sitting.still - wanting to run around with a mouth full of food. if mealtime is cut short, hunger ensues at the worst time (bedtime, middle of a cartrip somewhere, standing in line at the pharmacy - you name it)

these are just some examples of some of the things that are frustrating me. i come here looking for answers and feel that i don't want my child to fear me or obey "just b/c i said so", but GEEEEEZ! sometimes, i wish i could just tell him to do one.stinkin.thing and he'd do it. natural consequences of a rotted out bathroom subfloor mean nothing to him while he's dumping and splashing water everywhere. "mealtime's over" when he's acting disinterested in eating only serves to punish ME later. and having any kind of positive interaction in the car when he is acting the way he's been acting lately is impossible. he feels no obvious remorse for making younger brother cry and he appears to see it as perfectly acceptable behavior to annoy the crap out of him. i get so tired of listening to him asking for something new on a daily basis. we have enough toys to stock toys r us and he's not happy. i rotate them out to keep them "fresh", but it's driving me nuts just having to address it every single day re: why he can't have something new today. and to top it off, if i tell him no about ANYTHING, he hits me.
i'm at my wits end. sing-songing and game-playing to get him to live in harmony with us is going to drive me loony. for those of you who don't want your child to obey you (in any situation other than immediately harmful ones) then how do/would you handle this kind of stuff. letting him decide for himself, figure it out on his own, learn his own lessons is starting to seem a bit much for a 3 year old to tackle. we don't have little issues like preferring a blue shirt over a red one (when blue doesn't match) or not wanting to wear a coat when it's freezing outside. i'd love that kind of problem.
please help!


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## zonapellucida (Jul 16, 2004)

Good luck mama> I have a three that is a monster and the whole gengle thing just doesn't work with him. Every child is different and I honestly think the dicipline has to fit the child. it would be nice but it isn't a reality. My child spends a lot of time being repimanded and still tells me F8ck you


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## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

glad i'm not alone. what exactly are you doing when he's being "reprimanded"? just curious b/c i'm all out of ideas. the other day in the car, we were coming home from a town 1.5 hours away. it's me driving, my mom in the passenger seat, and both kids in the back close enough that he can touch baby (this is mom's car, they're not that close in mine) with foot or object in hand. the baby is obviously needing to nap and is a bit fussy but trying to settle. older ds is yelling, screaming, kicking, laughing maniacally, poking, toy-stealing, etc... i'm SO close to turning around and yelling "if i have to stop this car!..." but i don't know what the heck i'd do anyway! sometimes, i feel like i'm being tested, mocked, pushed...just to see how far mommy can stretch before she snaps. i know many believe three year olds aren't capable of thinking "this is gonna annoy the crap outta mommy so i'm gonna do it", but he's getting a kick out of the ruckus he's creating in the car, no doubt about it. so, i see no natural consequences to this. i don't even see logical ones (no longer allowing him in the car???). any consequence wouldn't even occur until 1. 5hours down the road once we're home - what can you do in a car?
i'm sinking. please throw me a lifeline!


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## sebandg'smama (Oct 29, 2005)

Sounds like your 3 year old is bored.

I'm a big believer in having as many tools as possible!
So for your car issue, have you considered getting a portable dvd player? I used to be against them, until I realized how restricted my ds really was in his carseat, barely able to move, thus makes it hard to play. Plus he got car sick, so reading was not an option. He needed to be entertained in the car and the dvd player worked for when dd needed to nap in the car.
Other things that worked for me, books on tape/cd. Lot's of snacks!

As for bathtime, does he have different containers that he could play with to pour water back and forth into? Towels by the tub could help protect the floor.
If you feel really strongly about the splashing and his not listening to you, perhaps you could end the bathtime early. Or give him the choice to have a shower instead.

Personally I think your dc has too many toys to appreciate any of them. Could you do a purge? I also have a child who has always wants things, so I stopped bringing him to stores with me until he was of an age where I could dialogue and reason with him.

Sorry, I'm at a loss about how to help him with his sibling. I'm sure other mothers who have btdt would have good advice.

Oh and







, this is hard work.


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## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

Here is what I do:

*Picking at younger sibling* - Explain that it isn't nice and it hurts their feelings. Tell the older child what the 7mo is feeling. For example "She is hungry that is why she is crying." Ask older child (but not in condescending or angry tone) "How would it make you feel if she was laughing at you when you were frustrated/sad/angry/hungry (whatever the feeling of the 7mo)?" Wait for them to answer and then talk about feelings and how different people cope with feelings. Ask them to help problem solve on how to help the 7mo get her needs met. For example, "What can we do to help her stop crying?"

*Harming younger sibling* - Try to understand why they harmed the younger. I found many times that my DS was trying to play with the baby but didn't know how to do it softly. Sometimes he would grab a toy and stick it in her face not realizing that he had to play gently with her. If that is the case, then I helped to teach him how to play with her, what kind of toys she might like, etc. If it really was to hurt the younger, then the toy gets put away.

*Dumping water out of the bathtub* - This was a big issue at our house and we have hardwood floors so it was potentially very damaging. I always made sure to put lots and lots of towels around. After the first time, I explained why dumping water out of the tub was not allowed (damages the floors, someone could slip, etc) and then gave my DD an option as to where she could dump water (lots of cups and bottles, dumping it on the soap holder, etc). I also told her that if water was dumped on the floor again, then bath time would have to be over. And as soon as the next cup was on the floor, bath time was over. A couple of times of being consistent with this stopped her from throwing water out.

*Begging for new toys* - Talk about money - we only have so much money and it needs to pay for the house, food, water, etc. I turn it into a game sometimes - if we spend all our money on toys, where would we live? Then we start joking about living in the trees or other places. Then I might say "What would we eat?" "How would we get clean?" etc. Plus, talk about why they want more toys. If they are bored with their current toys, problem solve together to find different ways to play with their current toys.

Gotta run to a meeting...I will try to come back and finish later.


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## CheapPearls (Aug 7, 2007)

Wow.







No wonder you are so stressed.

It sounds like he's jealous of baby brother and very angry. Is there any way you can spend some one on one time with him? That could help a bit with the acting out towards the baby, if he feels he's not being replaced and Mommy still loves him, etc.

I have splashers at bath time too. The best thing I have found is get a clear shower curtain. With it in the tub and pulled shut you can still see your ds but no water ends up on the floor. I also had a water toy from a water play table that they can pour water into and it flows down and spins little wheels. It sadly got broken but they are a lot better now about the splashing and dumping water out.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I'm not non-coercive, but I don't punish- does that count?

Reading your post, the thing that I kept thinking was to add connection. Find a way. MAKE yourself do something fun for him. Read a book together, cuddle and watch tv, play a game.

I really like Secret of Parenting- it's non punitive, but "parents in charge." I also liked Becoming the Parent You Want To Be. Much of the discipline stuff is aimed at working together and being respectful with younger kids.

Quote:

picking at younger sibling (laughing when baby cries or making loud crying noises to mimic or top the babies cries)
Is the baby bothered by it? That would determine my answer to that.

Quote:

harming younger sibling (scratching face with a toy)
Tell him that it's absolutely not ok. I would be very firm about it. I'd try to figure out the reason behind it, and see if he would talk to me about alternatives that he could do. If it came down to it, I'd remove the toy (to remove the temptation to hurt baby), or take baby to another room. (though that last thing would be a very last resort, and I think would be more harmful than helpful in the long run. But I'd have to keep baby safe in the moment.)

Quote:

3 yo old dumping water out of the bathtub
I'd give as many bath water pouring toys as I possibly could- collanders, basters, cups, bottles (like empty ketchup bottles), bowls, and try to create a game for IN the bathtub- like cooking, or something.
But I'd be firm about ds not being allowed to dump water on the floor, and I'd tell him it could damage it.
If all else failed, I'd have baths way less frequently, or have dp do the baths.

Quote:

begging for a new toy every.single.day
I'd stop explaining, once I felt that I'd explained thoroughly, fairly, and honestly. I'd start responding with "No, we're not getting a toy." Perhaps a very brief explanation. Then tell him "I'm not talking about this any more right now."

Quote:

dropping or throwing his own toys and then DEMANDING they be picked up at that moment (or having a freakout if they aren't)
I'd explain why I can't, then tell him there's nothing I can do about it. It's not safe for me to reach back, etc. Then just let him deal. I might try to find something that I can reach (a snack in the seat beside me or something). But if there's honestly nothing I can safely do (I'd try empathizing and talking, maybe sing a song), I'd just let him be upset.

Quote:

not sitting still to eat - ANYWHERE. freaking if i request dining room eating (preferring living room), but still not.sitting.still - wanting to run around with a mouth full of food.
This is not something I would care about. The one thing I might do, would be to set a longish time limit, and clear up his plate if he's not eating at that point (if he's eating, I'd leave it). My reasoning here would be more of cold food, bacteria growing, my need to have things cleaned up, rather than making him eat in a certain amount of time.
But I'd probably look for an underlying reason.
I have an aquaintance who's ds, every time he has something to say at the dinner table, gets up to run around it. It's like his body needs to be active for his brain to be active to. She doesn't try to squash it, but it helps HER be understanding.

Quote:

and to top it off, if i tell him no about ANYTHING, he hits me.
That would be another "Do NOT hit me. I don't like to be hit." In a very firm voice. My ideal is to not yell, but to let ds know that I'm genuinely unhappy/angry about being hit. Then I'd tell him "If you are angry, you can say you're angry/roar like a lion/stomp your feet/jump up and down/etc" or "If you don't like my response, you can tell me so, but you may not hit me."

Knowing me, I'd even say something like "Well, that's certainly not a way to change my mind. I don't feel much like cooperating with someone who just hurt me." But maybe that's punitive...


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## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MtBikeLover* 
Here is what I do:

*Picking at younger sibling* - Explain that it isn't nice and it hurts their feelings. Tell the older child what the 7mo is feeling.

*Begging for new toys* - Talk about money

i've tried these. this is what's happened:
trying to explain baby's feelings and asking "how would you feel if you were upset and crying and we laughed at you?" his response "nothing". that's exactly what he says EVERY.SINGLE.TIME. or, he changes the subject?!??!?!?!
talking about money wrt why we can't buy a new toy every day...his response is "go to the bank and get more money". i could talk about it ad nauseum and he'll just change the subject or keep asking for it in some way.

he wants to transfer water, but he puts the containers on the edge of the tub to fill them - inevitably he overfills or just knocks them off. i can't figure out a way to allow him to fulfill his pouring and transferring desires without the bathroom floor having 2 inches of standing water. ending the bath early hasn't changed the behavior. maybe it'll just take more time.

i'm bad at the quoting thing, so i won't even try, but to reply to a PP advice on getting a DVD player. i hear ya! and my husband REALLY hears ya! but i am so against it b/c i'm already trying to cut back/out tv at home (it's driving me bonkers) so i feel that transferring it to the car would be dangerous to my plan. he has a tray that he can put things on to play with. it's just that sometimes, he just seems to want to pick and nothing in the car short of the entrancing TV is going to get him to stop. is it my job to help him work thru this - to be able to manage a car ride without terrorizing passengers? or is it something he'll grow out of and i need to suffer thru?

i'd love to hear from the people who say "I don't want my child to be obedient to me. I want him/her to think for themselves...make their own decisions...do things because they are inherently the right things to do." HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE WITH A THREE YEAR OLD? Am i stupid? Am i not cut out to be a sahm (and deal with this 24/7)? i'm at my wit's end!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
he wants to transfer water, but he puts the containers on the edge of the tub to fill them - inevitably he overfills or just knocks them off. i can't figure out a way to allow him to fulfill his pouring and transferring desires without the bathroom floor having 2 inches of standing water.

OOh, what about one of those bed table tray things. It could sit in the tub, over his legs, and he could set his containers on that.


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## MamaOutThere (Apr 6, 2007)

Somehow you've got to figure out what the underlying need/emotion is. It ain't easy. But once you find it/them, your life will be easier. Ask lots of questions; when you hit on it, he'll let you know, I think. My dd1 used to pinch dd2; it took me awhile but I figured out that it had everything to do with my interactions with dd2. When I asked her, she let out a deep sigh of relief and never did it again.

Obedience from a 3 year-old is a lot to ask. He needs your help. And I know you feel like you can't give it right now.









How much TV is he watching. With my dd1 I vascillated between NO TV and self-regulation. But she became cranky -- and sometimes explosive -- every time she watched.

How much physical activity is he getting? He probably needs a lot. My dd1 did.

How's his diet?

I'm sorry! These LOs can drive us batty -- and there isn't enough out there (in the media and such) to let us know we're not alone. I'm sorry, but most non-coercion articles make it all seem like a no-brainer.


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## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaOutThere* 
Somehow you've got to figure out what the underlying need/emotion is. It ain't easy. But once you find it/them, your life will be easier. Ask lots of questions; when you hit on it, he'll let you know, I think.

How much TV is he watching.

How much physical activity is he getting?

How's his diet?

I'm sorry, but most non-coercion articles make it all seem like a no-brainer.


Yes, the articles and many people on here make everything they do sound like a no-brainer. I'm not being snarky - I'm JEALOUS!









OK - by asking questions to get to the heart of the matter - what do I ask? when? like when he's acting like a maniac in the backseat, ask him "why are you yelling so loudly?" "why are you trying to wake your brother?" etc...??? please tell me specific questions. But as I said in the last post, I can almost guarantee the answer will be "nothing".

TV varies - for me on a weekday, it's usually an hour of PBS in the AM and then 1/2 hour of caillou around lunch (his favorite).
on the weekends, daddy lets it stay on ALL.DAY.LONG - even when he's not even paying attention. but you better believe he'll pitch a fit if you turn it off and he's three rooms away!

He's physically active all day - sometimes more wild than others. Today, he's played with cars most of the day but he also played in the snow - running for almost a solid 45 minutes. He's jumped on the jumping mattress, rode his tricycle thru the house, etc...guaranteed there will be a wrestling match with daddy sometime before bedtime.

His diet is pretty good but sometimes his intake amt is so varied - there are days he's a pig and other days he's a bird. He's vegetarian. I try to give him things that are as natural as possible but he has occasional treats as well. He drinks milk and water.


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:

dropping or throwing his own toys and then DEMANDING they be picked up at that moment (or having a freakout if they aren't)
How do you respond to this now? If you then pick up the toy you're reinforcing the behaviour.

Personally, I would point out that he is perfectly capable of picking it up himself and leave him to it. Having a freakout in that situation is not emotional overload, it's three year old boundary testing and learning the limits - he's learnt that if he does that you will do what he wants from you.


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## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
i know many believe three year olds aren't capable of thinking "this is gonna annoy the crap outta mommy so i'm gonna do it", but he's getting a kick out of the ruckus he's creating in the car, no doubt about it.

Oh mine definitely does that - he even has a look, the "Let's see how mommy reacts when I do THIS" look! Someone here suggested the book "The Explosive Child" which I'm still reading but haven't finished so I can't really comment if it's going to work. This is a book for kids who get diagnosed with whatever disorder, and the author basically says, "It doesn't matter what you want to label it, ADD, ODD, whatever, let's just deal with the behavior." *Now let me just say I'm not suggesting your son has a disorder, mine hasn't been diagnosed with anything either and I expect he never would be, this is just how 3 year olds act. But some of the coping skills in the book may help you, that's all.*


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## petra_william (Nov 28, 2007)

hi i havent got a lot of time right now but will just quickly say a few things

it might be something in his diet he doesnt agree with. i have a friend whos son was intolerant to wheat and once she cut it out he was a changed boy. milk and dairy products can have the same effect. maybe worht giving it a try for a couple of weeks. try soy, rice or oatmilk, or goats milk and cheese if you can get hold of it. health food stores should sell wheat free bread, or try making your own, yummy







:

let him do more things... i always think, if you say "no" to a lot of things, where in hindsight it might not have been necesary, then saying " no" when it is really necesary wont get through as well. you mentioned about eating, does it really matter if he eats in the living room, stands up, plays a bit? a LOT of toddlers will pick and eat over a long period of time to finish their meal. my policy is that we all eat the same thing, but he can take as long as he wants. we will start off at the table but then he can go and play if he wants. fruit (dried or fresh) and vegetables (ie sticks of cucumber, peppers, carrot,... with hoummus dips etc) are always available to eat as they're healthy and i believe kids need constant refuelling to be able to function properly lol oh, and is he drinking enough?

i agree with what the others have said and would also have recomended a dvd plyer for the car. we havent got a tv but we have got a dvd player for the car and its worth it. if your going somewhere far away, you cant expect a child to sit still for along time and car seats are restricting. i hate tv but still, theres exceptions to the rule


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## laoxinat (Sep 17, 2007)

ITA w/the PP- look into food allergies. But I also sense that there is an "in-charge" vacuum. IOW, by this time, your confidence is rattled, you are confused about what to do, and ds knows it. So he is trying over and over to get you to *demonstrate* "in-charge" energy. This is not about the barking orders type of being in charge, but the energetic quality. Have you ever watched Cesar Millan? Yes, yes, he can be a piece of work, but, still. He talks about being calm and assertive. Works with dogs, helps with kids. Because kids and dogs have one thing in common- the way they process language. Remember Peanuts? The adults words were always "Wah, wah,wah"etc. I believe that is what kids hear a lot of the time. So we need to _project_ a sense of being in charge. First, so kids feel safe. But we don't _talk_ about it too much, because anything we talk about too much starts to sound like... well, you know.
Also, it may just be time to adjust for his particular developmental stage. What works beautifully with a 2 y o can be disastrous with a 6 y o. after all. HTH!!


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Disclaimer: I'm also not non-coercive, I've bordered on authoritarian when I'm having a bad day, and I have a tendency to lose my temper far too often.

But, I've decided that being non-coercive isn't as important as other parenting goals (non-punitive, not losing my temper), and so I'm OK with some logical consequences. It fits my personality and my beliefs about child development much more. So for me, I've decided that the greater evil is my yelling (I'm loud, unreasonably and scary when I do that). The result is that by giving up trying to not coerce, I'm more confident and consistent with what I do.

Now, much of what we do is in the direction of non-coercion. If I can, I seek out a mutually agreeable solution. And as my kids get older, it's easier. Ds is 6.5 and can engage in reasonable problem solving when he's not too tired/hungry. Dd is 3.5 and it's really hit or miss, mostly miss. Ds was completely unable to engage in these discussions at 3. In terms of development, that makes sense. 3 year olds have a hard time taking other perspectives. 4 year olds are better, and as kids get older, they get better at it. I can practice the skills with younger kids, but I don't expect them to work.

Also, at 3, he's unlikely to be able to articulate his underlying needs, especially in the heat of the moment. He was bugging his little brother in the car because he was bored, and you weren't able to pay attention to him. He imitates his little brother because it's fun/it bothers him/he gets attention/he's pretending to be a baby/he's 3.

In your situations you've described, this is what I'd do.

Self-care
When do you get a break? What are you doing to care for yourself? I'm a lousy parent when I"m stressed. And my kids pick up on my stress, and act out and it's a really bad dynamic.

Imitating the baby:
1) Ignore it if I could
2) Make a game of it -- can you be softer than the baby? Can you be louder than the baby? Can you make up your own baby words?
3) Redirect him to doing something with me

Harming sibling/hitting me:
This is the one 'offense' that gets out kids separated from us. Immediately. They are levitated to their room (note, it's about 8 feet away from the living room, so it's not the end of the universe), and asked to stay there until they've calmed down enough to be able to be with people. We then turn the attention to the victim.

Now, I didn't have a chronic hitter, if I did, I think I would probably have to think of other strategies, such as shadowing and prevention.

In the car
I'd pull over and sit there quietly until he quiets down (ignore the baby) and tell him that it's not safe for you to drive when he's being so loud and when he's harming the baby. If you have to worry about him or you can't hear, you can't pay attention to the road. So, you will pull over every time it gets too loud.

Then pull over, and sit quietly. My 3 year old gets this. I've only had to pull over twice. It's a natural consequence, IMO.

Begging for toys
1. Rotate the toys that he does have so there's some novelty there. Get two or three bins and put a new one out every week, keeping some favorites always in the mix.
2. Make birthday/holiday lists. If he begs for something, say "that's a great thing to put on your list". Then quit discussing it. I'll admit that these lists are mostly fiction at our house, but knowing that they might be able to get it another day seems to satisfy them.
3. Give it to him in fantasy "Oh that would be a great thing to get. I wish I could give it to you. What color would you like? What would you do with it? Where would we keep it?"
4. Not engaging in the debate. Give your answer, and say "I'm done talking about this." And move on. Remember it takes two to argue. Yes, my kids have followed me around trying to argue, but if I'm calm and talk about something else, eventually they drop it.

Throwing toys
OK, that one has me stumped. I have no idea what the underlying need is there. I guess my response would depend on what I'm doing. If I could help at the time, I'd do it. If I couldn't, I'd say "I'll be happy to help when I'm done with ....." If he tantrums, oh well. Offer a hug if he will take it, verbal reassurance if he doesn't. And move on with what you're doing.

Finally, do the best you can. Even the angels can do no more. (A quote from my great-grandmother.)


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## StartingtoCrunch (Dec 4, 2007)

You've gotten a lot of good advice here! I definitely agree w/ food allergies, wheat, dairy, gluten.... Is he consuming a lot of dyes in foods? As a public school teacher, I KNOW how jacked up those things can make you! I've also read about links between sleep apnea/behavior.

That being said, if you can rule out physical issues, it sounds like your LO has a definite need for attention. I would really try to take 3 minutes if possible to be just with him. I know how hard it is, my DD1 is 8, DD2 just turned 1. We've had to do a lot of this to get throught the year. Making time to give attention before it is demanded.

Hang in there. Take some time for you, and maybe you can destress and see more clearly!


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Oh and I forgot the most important part -- you can use a bath caddie like this to let him put things up on pour to his heart's content and it'll just go back into the tub:

http://www.stacksandstacks.com/html/...htub-shelf.htm

I bet any bath store has them for $10-$15.


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## MamaOutThere (Apr 6, 2007)

I totally agree with Laoxinot.

Jackson'sMama, the best thing you can do is drop all these expectations you have of yourself and find your own parenting style.

I followed TCS (Taking Your Child Seriously) for years with dd1. At first, I started out thinking I could never be firm, never allow dd to get angry or cry over anything, lest I damage her. The more I read, the more I understood non-coercive parenting and how it doesn't mean your child is in charge and that you have to give endless choices. Heck, I got majorly, majorly bashed on the TCS discussion list for trying to handle my dd1's hitting in a gentle way (I still believe it can be done, though). That opened my eyes to some things (like the idea that I trying to adhere to an ideal that didn't really exist), and I gradually left the TCS concept behind and felt more and more confidence in my own ideas and concepts. For example, there's a vast difference between authoritarian and authoritative.

I think once you find this groove, you will find the questions to ask your ds. You be better able to intuit what's going on with him. I know this doesn't sound helpful when he's just responding with "nothing." He probably needs to learn all those adjectives so he can better express what he's feeling in the moment. You can help by discussing your own emotions as openly as possible. It's okay for him to hear how he frustrates you or makes you angry or impatient or tired. He needs to learn to talk like that, too.

I honestly understand how frustrated you are. It is sooo hard. (My dd1, when she was 5, would not only ask for a toy once a day, but several times a day -- and I'm not sure I didn't induce a bit of anxiety about money matters; she still doesn't play much with the toys she has, so she has a very limited amount -- half a small storage box). I did use the fantasy play about getting anything she wanted; it worked pretty well.


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## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

thank you all so much for the advice...i think that alot of this comes down to a few concrete issues. first and foremost, i think i'm coming to the conclusion that i'm dealing with a bit of burnout. having a perfectionist personality is leaving me drained (the house is never clean enough, the laundry is never "done" enough, the food is never good enough, the kids are never parented as well as they could be, yada yada yada...). my dh supports me in taking breaks/taking care of myself - i just don't do it - i attend to something else like cleaning or reading some parenting book for fresh ideas.
anyways...i don't think food dyes are an issue. this is not crazy behavior every moment of the day or even every day (and he drinks cows milk or soy milk and has wheat products every single day). we do limit dyes and preservatives. in fact, yesterday, i can't think of anything he had that would have contained a dye. so, i guess i could try to eliminate dairy/wheat and see if anything changes at all...
the toy throwing/dropping thing is in the car. it's more of a "i want it when i want it" kind of thing that i don't know how to handle. he drops it - i don't know if it's always on purpose or not - and then he wants it NOW! he'll cry and kick the back of the seat. sometimes i can reach it safely, other times i can't.
i'll definitely look for some kind of shelf/table for the tub or one of those wall mounted funnel/spinny things - he'd like that. i also discovered that an earlier bathtime (before daddy gets home) yesterday made bathtime much easier???? maybe we'll go with that.
the negative sibling behavior is not a constant (it used to be) - now it seems to be during times of boredom (like in the car). he still has the occasion of appearing to want to engage baby brother - just not knowing quite how to do that - and i understand that and assist him. it's when they're strapped in a seat behind me and i feel like i just don't know what to do.
the hardest part of all this is that i'm just at a point where i feel i have no patience. i go thru the days feeling like i've run out of good ideas of things to do - he seems to have no interest in most things i suggest or try to get him involved in. i'm tending to feel like i sound like a jerk most of the time because i feel like i don't know how to talk so that he will respond to me (read: do ANYTHING i ask him to do). e.g. i'm trying to get baby to sleep. he's downstairs playing and says OK when i say i'll be right back. we've discussed the process before and he knows he can come get me or yell for me if he needs me (and i talked about what kinds of things can wait until mommy's done putting baby to sleep). 9/10 times he will stomp up the steps, come in, try to get on the bed, jump in the floor, bring in toys, want to show me something. i just want the baby to go to sleep so i "whisper yell" while pointing at the door 'GO DOWNSTAIRS!'. i feel like every time i come to a standstill with him, i have to give him some kind of ultimatum - either do_____ or i'm going to_______. i don't hit or threaten it. the second blank is typically toy removal/tv shutoff - i KNOW it's not always logical/nice/natural - but i'm at a loss. we don't have classic time out but i have sit him in a chair/on the kitchen counter and stood in front of him trying to explain why he's been removed from a situation and in need of changing gears.
i just feel like our (mine and dh) disclipline is so all over the place and i wonder if that is confusing to him. but (and i know this is gonna sound crazy, but remember i am a perfectionist!) - when you parent all day, when do you ever have time to figure out your next move?
geez - if nothing else, thanks for just letting me write this down. if you took the time to read it, please accept my virtual hug.


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

3 yo old dumping water out of the bathtub
**keep him busy, ask him to blow bubbles in the bathtub, play with ducks or whatever. Take out the containers he uses to dump water. Or take a bath with him. Or put him in the shower.

begging for a new toy every.single.day
**I would say: "Great. Let's do some crafts!" There are nice ideas on the internet and he could get a new "toy" whenever he wants.

not sitting still to eat - ANYWHERE. freaking if i request dining room eating (preferring living room), but still not.sitting.still - wanting to run around with a mouth full of food. if mealtime is cut short, hunger ensues at the worst time (bedtime, middle of a cartrip somewhere, standing in line at the pharmacy - you name it)
**my ds doesn't sit still for more than 5 min. So he eats a lot of sandwiches. I fix him a sandwich he can eat while playing. Other ideas: cheese sticks, apple slices, a banana, a small bowl of grapes he can take with him and not make a mess when he's playing.

I don't have any ideas about interacting with sibling, as I have only one ds. HTH


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Would it be more helpful to look at the overall picture instead of these confounding and frustrating particulars?

Like, instead of looking at each instance of him bothering the baby, would it be more helpful to you to see a bigger picture of his need for more attention?

Then it might be easier to focus on "solving" that than it is to focus on solving his picking at the baby, you know?

He sounds like my oldest in that with their "love languages" gifts and acts of service really make them feel special and loved.

Acts of service are fairly easy and straight forward--you pick the toy up and kiss the head, you bring in a plate of snacks or a cup of water, you offer a blanket, you say, "Ah-ha! I know what would work GREAT for this water experiment! Hang on!" and run a grab a few extra towels and a dishpan and another cup to pour, and so on. Even just asking, "How ya doing? Can I get you anything?" At first, I bet there will be lots of requests, and as his "cup" starts to fill, that will wane.

Gifts can be trickier I've found. Obviously, few of us can afford to purchase new things every day--and even if we could, might not feel comfortable doing that. So, here are some things we've tried. The dollar store. Yes, it's cheap and poorly made, but it fits the bill for the child who feels loved and special through gift-giving. Ten bucks at the dollar store can go a long way to wrap up a new little prize to be left out and found and enjoyed.

A "wish-list" has been very useful here, also. The key, I've found, is to use it in an enthusiastic and geniune way--you know, instead of like dismissing every request to the list.

Validating the child's desire for new toys. Just saying, "Yeah, that DOES look cool! Would you love to have that? Me, too. I wish you could have that, too." And you can follow up with, "Hey! Let's put it on the wish-list, whattya think?"

We also had a lot of success with re-wrapping toys we already owned. This has the potential to back-fire in a really ugly way







, so you might want to make sure he consents to it before you do it. But, one year we re-wrapped XMas presents and Hot Wheels over and over again, and it was a HUGE hit. Just the joy of anticipation and ripping off that paper was a delight. And wrapping paper and tape are cheap--I just viewed them as "craft supplies."

Anyway, gotta run! Hope some of that was helpful.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Just a couple of thoughts:
If he's bored in the car and you don't like the idea of a DVD player, could you play books on tape or kids' music that he likes, or tell him a story, or sing some songs, or play some kind of game with him? I like to be able to just sit and think my own thoughts instead of doing stuff like telling stories, but I'd rather tell a story than listen to screaming and crying.

Asking for new toys every day - does he have reason to think he might actually get a toy this way? Do you sometimes agree to it? If so, maybe you could make getting toys more predictable, and not something that could happen at any time if he just asks enough. Like once a month you could take a shopping trip where he could pick out one toy, and there would be no toy buying at other times.

If he never gets new toys as a result of the daily asking, could this just be a way of engaging you in conversation? Maybe you could say, "We're not going to get a new toy today, and I don't feel like talking about that. But if you want, I could tell you some stories about when I was a little kid (or teach you some knock-knock jokes, or whatever.)" Or just change the subject - "Nope, no new toys today. What do you think Grandma is doing right now? Maybe she's thinking about you and how much we fun we had when we went to the zoo. Remember those baby kangaroos we saw?"


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## mamabohl (May 21, 2005)

Quote:

i have questions for those who are gentle, don't coerce, don't punish, don't yell, don't have consequences other than natural ones, etc... (you get the drift...)
how would you, as the parent of a 3 yo and 7 month old handle the following:
well...this is my goal, but I'm totally not there yet. So I'll see if I can say anything helpfull, lol. I do first want to say that your 3yo sounds a lot like my 3yo. I think those behaviours are fairly typical for a 3yo and for a relatively new older sibling. One thing I've been trying to keep in mind is that my goal as a parent is NOT to raise a well-behaved child. It'd sure be easy if my kids were "good" all the time, but #1 that's not really feasible without fear-based parenting (and even then some kids have stronger wills than I did as a kid), #2 I don't want to raise a child that's always hiding his true self/feelings/desires so that he can please others. What my goal really is as a parent is to raise people who feel valued, respected, understood. Who are empathetic and who can have succesfull relationships. I don't think forcing my idea of good behaviour will result in that. So I try to NOT expect any technique to result in sudden all-the-time goodness, lol. I'm trying to accept behaviour as what it is with no good or bad labels.
Ok anyways:

Quote:

harming younger sibling (scratching face with a toy)
I would try to always be around younger ds if older ds is near him. If 3yo tries to hurt baby I would try to catch his hand to keep him from hurting, then say something like "we don't hurt others" or "the baby would feel sad if you hurt him" etc. I would not use the "how would you feel?" type of response because that will most likely put him on the defensive and not get an honest answer. I actually think it would have the oposite effect of what's desired (empathy). If you don't catch him in time I would do basically the same thing - "ow, that hurt baby, he feels sad." or "I feel angry when you hurt your sibling" (hey, it's honest, right?) etc. Then I would maybe check to see if the baby's ok and give him a bandaid if there's a visible booboo, then I would cuddle with the 3yo and maybe do something with him, read him a story or something like that. I would not expect the hurting his sibling to stop right away, but it is probably a phase that will stop eventually, the goal would be to use those moments to teach empathy and to try hard not to shame.

Quote:

3 yo old dumping water out of the bathtub
ug, I hear ya on that one! Both my boys do this. I really haven't figured out any way to stop them. I'm trying to be ok with it and just put a couple extra towels down, but I still get really angry when they do it. My anger is so disproportionate here, I have no idea why. Have you tried having buckets on the floor for dumping into? Or maybe removing all poruing devices and replacing them with a different bath toy, like bath crayons or paints or a pirate ship. Or allowing him to pour at a different time into the sink or outside if that seems to be a need.

Quote:

begging for a new toy every.single.day
When we switched from regular TV to only DVD's the "gimmes" went down a TON. Where is the asking for a toy happening? If it's in stores I would avoid bringing him into stores that have toys for a while. Sometimes my boys get really nuts in grocery stores so I stop bringing them for a while and then they're fine again. I guess maybe they just need a break. You could try giving him an allowance so he can save up for a toy, but he might be a little young for that. Or have a "toy day" once a week where you go to a thrift store and let him pick out 1 toy. (and that might be a good time to talk about giving away older unused toys for kids who don't have them) Again though, I wouldn't expect this to stop. I would try to have a calm, simple answer ready to say every time he asks. If he started yelling, demanding, etc. I would try to stay calm, leave the store if we were out (maybe just go out to the car until he's calm then go back in) or if we were in I would tell him that I was sorry he was so upset, I would reflect his feelings (you seem angry that I won't buy that toy. You really really want that toy. etc.), and then I would tell him that I would be there to give him a hug or boob if he needed it, after that I would wait. I would just sit next to him calmly wating until he was done expressing himself.

Quote:

acting like a lunatic in the car (reaching over with foot or hand to younger brother, screeching at the top of his lungs if he notices baby asleep, stealing baby's toys, dropping or throwing his own toys and then DEMANDING they be picked up at that moment (or having a freakout if they aren't)
Another one I can relate to, lol. My 5yo loves to pick at the 3yo in the car, I don't really know what to do about that other than asking him to stop or moving the carseats further away if possible. If he was hurting sibling I would maybe pull over the car to prevent them from hurting each other (and to prevent me from crashing due to distraction). The demanding and freaking out thing my 3yo does all the time and i just have no idea how to respond. I don't want to do what he says when he yells at me, but no amount of talking will calm him down. I'm trying to just say that I will be happy to help when he calms down so I can understand him and then I wait. In the car this is even more difficult. I usually tell him that I can't reach while driving (that's when the screaming starts) but that I will do it as soon as we stop. Then I ignore the screaming until we get to the stoplight.
One idea for busywork in the car is books on tape, would your 3yo be interested in that?

Quote:

not sitting still to eat - ANYWHERE. freaking if i request dining room eating (preferring living room), but still not.sitting.still - wanting to run around with a mouth full of food. if mealtime is cut short, hunger ensues at the worst time (bedtime, middle of a cartrip somewhere, standing in line at the pharmacy - you name it)
I do not expect my kids to sit still to eat. My 3yo actually sits for longer than the 5yo most nights, but my 3yo is my good eater, lol. I find that they are more likely to sit for some period of time if dinner is all set up at the table and we all eat together. They are more likely to come to the table if dh and I are there. I also wouldn't take dinner away just cuz they aren't sitting. I usually leave their meal at the table for a while cuz I know they eat slowly, playing in between bites. I don't care if my kids are moving with food in there mouth, I've never seen it as a really serious choking risk. Wrestling while eating would be another thing, but just running around wouldn't bother me. I also allow eating anywhere in the house, so I'm not really a help with any of those. Oh, and I always always always bring water and a snack when we leave the house. I try to encourage my kids to check if they're hungry about an hour before bed, but sometimes they do get hungry at bedtime. I offer a small simple snack and then we get to bed. When my son was in a bad habit of eating right at bedtime I started trying to make dinner time more regular and trying to make sure he was hungry at dinner time, so that he wouldn't be hungry later. I wouldn't say "you can't eat now cuz dinner is soon," but I try to avoid snacks and distract if we're close, or offer something really small and unfilling like applesauce.

And as others have said, lots of love, one-on-one playtime if possible (even 15 minutes a day), excersize, etc. I read on here a while ago about the "I love you game" My 5yo loves it so much. Basically you say to him I love you when you're laughing, I love you when you're screaming, etc. With any different situation you can think of. 5yo even had me write a list down of all the different times I love him, lol. HTH!

wanted to add that reflecting feelings is probably my greatest tool for my 3yo. If he hears me listening to what he's saying/how he's feeling that at least makes him feel a bit better, even if he's not getting exactly what he wanted.


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
i feel like every time i come to a standstill with him, i have to give him some kind of ultimatum - either do_____ or i'm going to_______. i don't hit or threaten it. the second blankis typically toy removal/tv shutoff


I do that too.









I just wanted to suggest using a music player with headphones for the car instead of the DVD player.


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## chanibell (Sep 25, 2002)

Oh mama I'm not sure what to say. We had a picture blown up of our son almost poster sized and professionally framed and put it above our fireplace. We now think of him as "the overlord" as he looks down on us







and he's also 3.

He's an only child,but we have little pets and they are like his siblings so he knows they are little and not to hurt,pull their tails etc etc.

So many battles,but one thing I may suggest is putting your ds in something active like soccer. Or take him somewhere and run him like a deer.







My dh and I both play rough with him too to wear him out.

With the bathtub thing,my ds does the splashing thing and after two times when I say stop it and he doesn't it bath time is over.

All kids are different. Does your ds enjoy fruit or snacks in the car? Maybe this would help. What about getting him a walkman( do they still make them) or something to keep him occupied.

good luck. Its hard.


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## Datura (Mar 18, 2005)

Hmm, ok, please take this in the nicest possible way, because this is how its meant. I think part of this may be a reaction to some of the perfectionism. I'm the child of two perfectionists and it was seriously like living in a perpetual vacuum. Not like the Hoover kind, like the "breath is being sucked out of me" kind. Even if you're not being perfectionist directly towards them (like in their performance, appearance, etc) they pick up on it. If I moved a knickknack, my mother would scoot in to put it back to her painstakingly selected spot when she thought I wasn't looking. A large portion of her time was spent worrying over stuff that really was inconsequential in the larger picture. He may well be blowing off steam. I know that I did (I was a demon child).

Also, does he go to a preschool or other social setting where he's out of your care? My boy gets extremely difficult when we don't have time away from each other. I get tired and burned out and he really needs the social interaction with his peers. He might benefit from having a life outside of the family unit, particularly with a new sibling in the mix.

As for the splashing, I would give a warning and then yank him out of the bath. If that didn't work after a few nights, he would be busted down to a shower. If you don't have a shower, I'd give him a sponge bath. If you abuse the bath, you don't get the luxury of having a bath.

On the toy situation, I would shut it down completely. He has plenty and it sounds like he's taking advantage. No new toys, no way, no how for at least a month. After that I would set a limit, say one per month or so, if that, and possibly a spending limit. Toys aren't a necessity of life. Abuse the privilege by being a jerk about it, lose the privilege.

I honestly don't know what to say about hitting the little sibling as I don't have two on the outside yet and thus no experience dealing with siblings.








It sounds like you've got a lot going on, but you're doing really well. There are a lot of wonderful mamas here to talk with and draw upon their experience.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Really









I know how hard it is. I've BTDT with all those behaviors at one time.

One bit of advice I can give is set yourself up for success whenever you can.

FE don't put more than an inch or two of water in the tub. Also when the splashing starts, bathtime is over. Be very matter-of-fact.

Mealtimes, I know there are great ideas out there.

Routines, clear expectations, and boundaries all help.


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## Rachel J. (Oct 30, 2005)

I'm not GD saint, but I am trying







. I have a 3.5 yo (almost 4) and an 18month old so not long ago I was where you are now. Just a few thoughts (because it's late and I should be in bed). I noticed that when ds2 was able to sit up and became mobile the interaction level and thus the hurting increased. For a while I just had to wear ds2 frequently to keep him from being sat on, pushed over, hit, etc. I feel like it's just a developmental stage where the older child is practicing and exhibiting their power and strength. It still ticked me off and there were plenty of times where I just lost it but at least I understand it a little better. I ask ds1 to ask ds2 if he's okay and if there's anything he can do to make it better. He can also say he's sorry if he wants. Right now he's not willing to any of those things most of the time







: but he will with friends usually so I know that he's learning. My API leader continually emphapsizes that children do not have the capacity for empathy until around 4 yo so they really aren't able to understand how they are causing someone else pain. I'm sure they get that hitting causes crying but they don't make the connection about how they dislike being hit and that the other person might feel the same way. I guess that's where separation (not as punishment but as a safety issue) comes in. I can never get my ds1 to stay in another room without threats, as soon as I say he needs to go into another room because he's not keeping himself from hurting his brother and we're not allowed to hurt people he becomes like glue to me (what that tells me is that he needs even more attention from me). So up on the back ds2 goes.

Regarding bath time, my ds1 was a big splasher for a while. He didn't like the curtain closed all the time (or would pour water around it) so I told him that if he chose to splash/pour water out of the tub then he would be done with his bath time. It may not be a natural consequence but it's logical and it worked very well. I almost always give a second chance to a logical consequence if he wants one. Like, "you're splashing lots of water onto the floor and it's dangerous, me or your brother might slip and get hurt. Splashing water means bath time is over, would you like to try again with no splashing?" (Actually I'm probably not that clear or concise unfortunately, I tend to be too wordy to the point that ds will say "Mommy just stop talking.")

We had the same problem with meals. Ds1 was a very picky eater so we were willing to let him eat anywhere just to get food into him. It got messy, especially with ds2 toddling around and getting into it, so now he has to eat most of his food at the dining room table. There was quite a fight about it for a little while but now he knows that's where his food will be and needs to stay, when he's ready for it.

You're at a hard stage and a lot of this will just take your patience and time. You'll probably wonder why he doesn't seem to be getting it and if the "battles" will ever end. I know I did (and still do with the new ones).

I'm really bad about planned activities for him. I'd rather do the laundry, cook meals, clean up, all the stuff that has to be done in a day, but of course I pay for the inattention. So now I try to have something planned if we're not going out. We do lots of play dough, painting, walking on the railroad tracks or playing with his toys. It's hard for me to be interested but I find that if I really try to give him attention during those times and keep activities available for him, he's usually much more pleasant and agreeable.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MtBikeLover* 

*Begging for new toys* - Talk about money - we only have so much money and it needs to pay for the house, food, water, etc. I turn it into a game sometimes - if we spend all our money on toys, where would we live? Then we start joking about living in the trees or other places. Then I might say "What would we eat?" "How would we get clean?" etc. Plus, talk about why they want more toys. If they are bored with their current toys, problem solve together to find different ways to play with their current toys.

Oh, I like this idea! I'm going to remember it and use it when my children are older! I've always admired parents who don't "dumb down" or "baby speak" things to kids...if I hear a mom talking to kids somewhere in real, but simple, kid-friendly, gentle terms, I've always liked that!


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *marybethorama* 
Really









I know how hard it is. I've BTDT with all those behaviors at one time.

One bit of advice I can give is set yourself up for success whenever you can.

FE don't put more than an inch or two of water in the tub. Also when the splashing starts, bathtime is over. Be very matter-of-fact.

Mealtimes, I know there are great ideas out there.

Routines, clear expectations, and boundaries all help.









:

I think routines, clear expectations, and boundaries are key. Also, consistency!


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## lurve (May 5, 2006)

i would recommend the book playful parenting and start playing with your older child to get out some of the emotions he is having. it seems by giving your child an arena to get out these behaviors (like have two dolls and one be the parent and another be a child who wants every new toy and making a game of it) you can address these issues in a playful way that the child might better understand.


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

We have the SAME FOOD ISSUE and it is driving me INSANE. That and the crap like "I want barbecue sauce." so he gets it "I want ranch" gets it "want sweet/sour" gets it..........and then he eats NOTHING (except maybe some sauce with his finger)

It's SLOWLY getting better. I have started naming off a couple options that are in the fridge and he usually will choose and then actually eat. (I'm not even asking for ALL of it, I'm just asking that if he asks for something, he eat some of it at least! *sigh*) I have also limited condiments to ONE choice.

The TV. Yup my kid pitches the same fit if his Caillou DVD is on and he is in his bedroom playing and I turn it off. I remind him that he was not watching it. Sometimes, depending on how much TV's been on I give him the option of having it back on IF he watches it. Sometimes I just say "No, we're going to do something else" or we also have "grownup TV" time. DS knows what that means now and if I say that he pretty much stops after about a minute because he knows it's not going to get him anything.

If I had car issues like you, I'd probably eliminate TV from the HOUSE as much as possible and let him have the car DVD thing. Or at least have one for times like that road trip you were on. So far haven't had that issue.









my DS is sometimes mean to his one year old sister too. Depends on situation how I react. Usually it is that he's building or doing something and she is about to wreck it or has wrecked it. In which case I move her and give her something else to do.

If he just wants to hog all the toys, I tell him she HAS to have SOMETHING to play with, they are both of theirs' toys, and *usually* he will pick something she can have. If he doesn't I do.

I put a toy in time-out yesterday though because nothing else was working.

I would set a limit on the toy-buying too. Something he can understand. My son CONSTANTLY asks to go to Gigglebees (a kids' arcade place) I told him Dad has to be home with us for us to go. this works as DH works lots of hours and is bascilly only home on the weekend at times when it is open.
I don't know what i'd do if it was constant new toy requests...probaby lose my mind and flip out about the amount of toys he already has LOL.

Or......maybe three is a little young for this "get rid of one you don't play with anymore and then we can get something new?" I don't know if my DS would get that or not? I'm guessing not yet. just brainstorming.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Lots of good advice here and I dont' have time to list our responses to all the behaviours but I will say this. Every single thing you described is oh so normal 3 year old behaviour and I think your major issue may be simply recognizing that this is what 3 year olds are like and there isn't anything to "correct" it's more like recognizing the need or want behind that behaviour and addressing that, like others have said.

Reading your post made me think of this analogy: If I wrote into a pet forum and said something like "my cat won't stop trying to chase little furry things and I'm trying to teach her to fetch but she simply refuses to listen to me!!"...you might say "uh, she's just being a cat". Your kids are just being 3 and there is nothing to "fix" you just have to find ways to incorporate their needs into your boundaries. You CAN do this without coercion or punishment but it takes time to find out what works for your kids....good luck!


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## aprons_and_acorns (Sep 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 

he wants to transfer water, but he puts the containers on the edge of the tub to fill them - inevitably he overfills or just knocks them off. i can't figure out a way to allow him to fulfill his pouring and transferring desires without the bathroom floor having 2 inches of standing water. ending the bath early hasn't changed the behavior. maybe it'll just take more time.

We use a milk crate as a table in the bathtub. That way my son has a place to fill containers without getting water on the floor. And the crate also holds the tub toys between baths. Maybe that would work for your ds, too? Milk crates are free or cheap.

As for everything else, no advice, just a


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