# newborn down the hall?



## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

I'm just curious as to everyones opinion on this. I hear people say alot that they put their nb n their own room but until recently I've never heard of a nursing mom doing this. A friend of mine tol dme the other day that her 7 week old has been in his own room for 4 weeks already. I was shocked! How can you sleep? I'd flip out. He's SO tiny and still nursing at night right? Yes, he is she said, I go into his room to nurse because I feel bad about him waking my husband. My sister is TTC and sure that it's FINE to put a nb in their own room. Why waste the money on a bassinette and crib? Cosleeping is OUT of the question.. I'm so suprised everytime I hear this. I myself am not terrible comfortable with cosleeping in the same bed with a nb, I've never done it. But I cosleep with my 2 year old sometimes in my bed and always next to it if not.

Here's my question; Would you and do you think it's safe to put a nb in their own room down the hall?


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## SabraMamma (Nov 20, 2001)

We put DS in his own room in a crib when he was 6 weeks old. He was such a noisy sleeper- moaning and grunting all night long. We had an extra bed in there so that when I went in to nurse I could lie down with him. He was sleeping for long stretches already at that point so it worked. Now he is in bed with us (at 9 months) b/c his sleep cycles are shorter and he refuses to sleep on his own, so we cosleep.Whatever works for mom and baby.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

My kids have never slept apart from me (well except now when they go visit their dad). They were always in my bed as newborns. I couldn't imagine having this little bitty baby all by themselves away from me. It is so much easier to roll over and nurse your baby when they wake, than it is to fully get out of bed to go nurse. And plus, I always awoke instantly when my babies did, if they were in another room I would worry about how long they had been awake and fussing.

I don't think it is safe to have the newborn down the hall away from mom. I have suspicions that many more SIDS cases are related to newborns being alone and not *awoken* by mom's breathing and movements during sleep. I think they fall too soundly asleep to wake up by themselves. This is debatable for sure, since no one really knows, but there have been some studies done on this. The only thing that sleeping with baby that would be dangerous is if the mother or father drink heavily or smoke.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

If I'd slept in the same room with my grunting snoring moaning newborn, I would have been too tired to nurse her because I would not have slept for even 5 minutes!


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## mommybritt (Nov 19, 2001)

The new Health Canada SIDS recommendations say that you should sleep in the same room as your baby until they are 6 months old so from a safety point of view, I definitely think that newborn is too young to have their own room.


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## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*
Here's my question; Would you and do you think it's safe to put a nb in their own room down the hall?

No way! Newborns are not meant to be that far from their mamas. What if the baby is cold, or hot, or stops breathing, or gags on spit-up, or...or... no way! Besides it's so much easier to roll over, pop in a boob and fall asleep than it isto walk down the hall.
JMO


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## KKmama (Dec 6, 2001)

There's no way I'd get any sleep with my baby anywhere but right next to me.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KKmama*
There's no way I'd get any sleep with my baby anywhere but right next to me.









Ditto


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## Pukka (Apr 27, 2003)

My SIL said she slept w/ her oldest for about a week but said she drove herself crazy "always checking to see if she was breathing" so she ended up putting her in a crib in her own room. WTF?







How does that help?

My baby was a noisy sleeper too for a few weeks. Thank God she grew out of it! I was seriously considering moving her too, but knew that I'd get even less sleep getting up to nurse & check on her.


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## Feathere (Jun 20, 2003)

Dh and I brought dd home from the hospital and she has slept in her crib every night since (barring trips away from home.) We were completely comfortable with this. THe distance from my bed to her crib is a total of 10 steps (i've counted) and I can count on one hand the times I've slept thru her crying and dh has had to wake me. In fact, in the first couple months of nursing, I always woke before she did, full of milk and read to go, so she never cried for food. Our mama/baby bond was/is very tight and although she was not in the room, I could hear and sense her.

Now that she is older I am still glad that we put her in her crib from the beginning. This might not be all 'ap' and all that, but it worked well for us. And the logistics made better sense-- to nurse dd as a newborn, I had to have the light on, my boppy, i had to sit up to get her latched correctly, then change her diaper--it was an affair, and dh had to get some rest, because somebody had to go to work, and it wasn't gonna be me!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I honestly have no idea how any mother can stand having her newborn that far away from her. As KKmama said, there is no way I could sleep with baby away from me like that.

I'm not trying to pass judgement on anybody. I just cannot for the life of me relate to feeling better with baby in another room (or frankly, even in another bed in the same room), it's just so outside my own experience. It seems very unnatural to me, and yes I would worry about SIDS. I strongly believe that SIDS is an arousal disorder that is greatly exacerbated by solitary sleeping, since we know that a cosleeping mama regulates her newborn's breathing, heart rate, and sleep cycles.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

What I can't believe is the reasoning I hear sometimes. I must be really inconsiderate of my DH. We BOTH work. He leave and I stay here but we both work hard and earn a living. I don't try to avoid waking him or worry about him being tired at work. He will get up as much as I will and has with all our babies. What if I'm tired all day? I'd rather him be grumpy to strangers than me to our children. It's a partnership.


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## Tuesday (Mar 3, 2003)

my~hearts~light - I can see both sides to this issue.

Our DS is a 14 month old who I co sleep with and BF. Prior to DS's birth, I knew nothing about babies, NOTHING at all about breastfeeding and I had never heard of "co-sleeping". I have only 2 girlfriends with kids and they both breastfed their children and they put them in cribs in their own rooms. I thought, this was the only option! My friends' babies all seemed to come home from the hospital and sleep in 4 or 6 hour stretches - within weeks of being born! From what I understood, the moms' routine was simple: hear crying, go to baby, nurse in a rocking chair, put the baby back in crib, go back to sleep for another 4 or 6 hours. After a few weeks, these LUCKY moms children were sleeping through the night.

Ha ha. Then I come along assuming, ignorantly, that this will happen with me. My son had reflux and was, a more normal baby actually - wanted to be with mommy and woke constantly. My doctor discouraged co-sleeping and no one else I knew was doing it. After about 6 weeks, I was going crazy with getting 1 or 2 hours of sleep a night. My DH works nights and I was just thinking I was in some sort of hell. Then, I finally read some decent mothering books, used my instincts and took my son into the family bed. And, life got better.

DO I think it's safe for a newborn to be in a crib? I don't know - I guess it depends on the baby, the distance, the parents, etc. In my case it wasn't safe because I was sleep deprived beyond all measure of sanity. Do I think all parents are making a mistake by putting their baby in a crib? Certainly not. I do think that I wouldn't trade the experience of co-sleeping for anything. I also think, despite the presence of Mothering.com and like, there is still a lack of information from mainstream medical profession and parenting media regarding the advantages of co-sleeping. I felt very guilty when I first started co-sleeping with my son because I had repeatedly been told it was "wrong" and was going to cause problems down the road. In fact, my worry at the time was I was increasing the risk of SIDs! Fortunately, I read Meredith Smalls' Our Babies: Ourselves which helped me immensely. You may think, how could she not know? But, I didn't. I knew nothing about babies. I was so naive, so inexperienced - had never even changed a baby's diaper - what did I know? So, I don't think it's fair to judge people. Besides, visit any baby department in any retail store - what do they sell? Cribs, decorations for baby rooms, monitors, etc. This idea of sleeping in a separate room is a big marketing thing, too. Luckily, I thought that part was a "scam". Our crib was a hand-me-down (from people who I later learned co-slept with their children but didn't admit it until later!!).


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

There *is* a happy medium though. Why do these people not use a cradle at bedside or something? I've never done the family bed thing. I put Meg in my bed if she's fussing but not just for sleeping. I have our bassinete all ready for this next baby. Washed and ready at the end of the bed, waiting. For the record, I *do* have a beautiful nursery ready to go. I wanted it regardless of how much it will be used for sleeping. I intend to cosleep (both babies in my room) until at LEAST 6 months. After that I'd feel ok putting them in their own shared room because I"m getting one of those camera monitors. That will help me feel more secure and keep me from going to check up every 5 minutes. I'm hoping anyway.....

I'm just not comfortable with a newborn being more than 2 feet from me while I sleep.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*
There *is* a happy medium though. Why do these people not use a cradle at bedside or something? .


I don't know why for everyone but as I said, for me it was because my kids were just tooo noisy. My daughter was so loud a sleeper that even her first night in the hospital they had a doctor come to my room to try to see why she was snoring so loudly! She said she was fine and 9 years later, she certainly is thriving though she snores like a 200 pound man!

I simply would NEVER have slept if she was in the room with me. When she was next door there was just ennough of a sound barrier that I could hear her cries but her snores were blocked.

Hopefully you'll never have a baby with these issues.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

I could never have slept without my baby next to me.
It was the only way I could relax, knowing he was right there in the safest place in the world.. next to his mama.

I am not judging anyone else.. but I could never have had him in another room. I would have been a wreck.

He has started sleeping in his own bed at 27 months.. he seems to need his own space now, and I STILL miss him and worry and get up and check on him.

Sometimes he still climbs in our bed to snuggle in the wee hours and I am always so glad!

But a newborn in another room? I would have been a nervous wreck.


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## Thursday Girl (Mar 26, 2004)

My baby slept in our room until she was 3 months. Sometimes in a bassinett RIGHT next to our bed, sometimes in our bed. Then she moved to her own room. it was easier on her then on me. I also could not imagine having a newborn that far away. But once she got older it seemed like thr right thing for us to do. but every baby is diffrent and every fanily is diffrent how boring if we were all the same.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya43*
Hopefully you'll never have a baby with these issues.


It's strange but my first did snore and grunt horrible loud. I was too tired to care though. I was a very scared first time mom. My second was on an apnea monitor for her first year and I had to keep her really close but couldn't have her in our bed. With this baby I hope I will feel more confident and less afraid of sids ect. It'll be nice to just do what comes natural this time without being afraid or haivng the restrictions of monitors.


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## crysmomofthree (Mar 18, 2004)

what's the matter with flexibility? All three of our sons did a combo some part of the night in the crib (usually the beginning) some in the bassinet and some in the bed. If we were extra tired he slept in bed with us, If he was cranky he slept in bed with us. If we wanted to have some adult time he went to bed in the crib and then when he woke up came to our room. Our third son is a very noisy sleeper and he moves around a lot while asleep so he was the earliest to be in a cribe more or less full time (about three months) although he comes for wee hours visits to the big bed, as do all of the boys still.
It is so important to be flexible when you have children and to do what works best for you, your baby and the rest of the family, as long as everyones needs are being met everything should work well
crystal


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## mirlee (Jul 30, 2002)

My parents didn't co-sleep, but all the babies slept in their room until they were almost three. They figured it was just easier that way.

When Schmooey was born we tried to put him in a separate room, but that was just too hard. He was a very restless sleeper all by himself and I was so tired, that bringing him in was the only way to get some sleep. Turns out, the whole family manged to sleep including the cats. He stopped being a restless sleeper and I no longer had to get out of bed. I can't imagine a baby in their own room. I would, and did, spend too much time worrying about them over there alone. Besides, it didn't make sense. I slept in the same room with dh and two cats, why should he sleep all by his lonesome.

If and when we have number two, we already know that co-sleeping is the only way to go. To me, it doesn't matter if the baby snores, whimpers or whatever in their sleep. I am just glad to know what is going on. It can't be any worse than the cat or dh's snores.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

You're right! Being flexible is key. I was just curious as to why some people automaticly put their new baby in a room down the hall.


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## cutekid (Aug 5, 2004)

I wanted to add to this post. I am a first time mom, and of course i have heard it all. Esspeically on the sleep situation. My DS sleeps pretty much anywhere when he's full and tired. This includes his crib in his room, in my bed and even a chair in the living room. There are some nights when he sleep with my DF and I. There are other nights when I put him in his crib. It just depends on several things. IF I am tired he doesn't make it to his crib, if he's fussy he doesn't go in his crib, if my DF and I feel like we need some time alone DS goes in his crib.

Do I feel comfortable leaving him in his crib all night, yes and no Do I feel comfotable with him sleeping with me, Not all the time. There's some nights when I cannot sleep with him in the bed next to me.

So for me, whatever the night time brings is what I do. So I am not consistant, but really is life that consistant.

BTW, if I had a bassinette or co-sleeper i'd use it in our room, but he'd probably out grow it before I could reap the finacial benefits, he's only a month old and almost 13#'s


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

I bought one with my first so I had a bass but I gave it to my friend for her baby. I had to buy another cozier bass for my second who was a tiny preemie. She used it for a year so I got my moneys worth already. I can understand some people not being able to do that or getting moneys worth out of one like I did.


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

My DS slept in his room/crib from the time he was 4 weeks old. His room was acrossed the hall from ours and we kept both doors open. Like a pp mentioned he was a very loud sleeper and I could simply not sleep with him in the room (I even had the co-sleeper all ready) He had absoulty no problems sleeping in his crib and slept much better that way. I almost *always* woke up before he did ready to nurse and within minutes I would hear him wiggiling around - so that was never an issue (plus for the first 2.5 months I had to set my clock to wake up and pump before he woke up since we had nursing issues) Anyway it was never a problem for either of us and I don't see anything really wrong with it unless the parents are doing some sort of CIO to 'make' the baby sleep there.

My DD otoh wanted nothing to do with the crib and so I slept with her the first 15 months of her life. Even thought it was *very* difficult for me to sleep that way at all - but there was no way I could 'make' her sleep in the crib so I did what I had to do.

With this next baby I will see how he likes the crib - but it will be in our room since we only have 3 bedrooms. But I will still be willing to cosleep if dosen't like the crib like DD but if he has no problems with it I will start him in it right away.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

I would not feel comfortable with this at all. only now, my dd being 3 years old, I have come to a point where it's ok for her to take that step. I truly believe babies, especially newborn babies, they need their mothers to be right next to them. I am a big continuum concept believer and I could not imagine having my newborn sleep in a whole separate room. plus, besides it being negative for my babies, I could not close my eyes for one second. I need to see my baby right next to me, safe and sound, for me to be able to sleep.


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## Snowbaby (Nov 23, 2003)

It really pisses me off how all over this board people are like "I'm not judging anyone but...." and then proceed to outright bash parents who do things differently or to passive-aggressively and indirectly insinuate that they are bad parents.

I've tried cosleeping with my daughter (because I've been reading a lot on this site about AP and am the type to be open-minded about different ways of doing things) and, honestly, I hate it. I just can't sleep at all worrying about not suffocating her ... she likes to bury her face in my armpit or worrying about moving too much b/c she always jolts or gets awoken even by the tiniest movements or worrying about the cats getting on her b/c they're used to sleeping between DH and I and have tried to sleep ON the baby to take their spot back or worrying that DH has slept with cats all his life and is used to just swatting or shoving them off the bed in his sleep when he wants to change positions so one night he started to shove the baby and i had to wake him. These things are real dangers and even if they didn't happen .... what mother is a good mother on NO sleep at all on most nights every night?

Of course, now someone will say why not keep her in the same room even if not the same bed ... well, we have six cats who are used to sleeping in our room and in our bed and start peeing all over the house and fighting with each other if their routine or space is changed. When we've locked them out of our bedroom, all hell breaks loose ... we tried this and ended up having to bring one to the vet as his ear was practically bitten off in a fight. They NEVER fight otherwise - it's always related to DH and I cramping their space by locking them out of somewhere. So, we just know better than to kick them out of the bedroom at night. But, if we keep them AND the baby in the room, then we have the problem of cats wanting to sleep on top of baby or with baby (suffocation dangers).

WHY have I bothered to give all this information? To hopefully illustrate that everyone's situation is different and that you REALLY can't judge their decisions (and I mean REALLy, not just a false "I'm not judging anyone but...) because you just don't know what is best for them and their family. Our baby sleeps in her crib in her own room most nights. She has also slept in our room in a bassinet or pack and play and has slept in our bed ... we've tried all methods and the one that is working for us is the first.

Does this mean I dont' love snuggling with her, does it mean that I am an uncaring mother, does it mean I'm putting her at risk??!! That's not for you to decide!

The trouble with AP parenting and why those people like me who are slowly trying to inch in taht direction and to be open-minded and learn about alternative ways of raising my child (I am delaying vaccination, baby-wearing, exclusively breastfeeding .... ALL because of this website!) get turned off is because some people are just so damn judgmental and rigid about it being "done right". It's like you have to follow the "AP Manual" or you suck as a parent! I, honestly, am just a parent and I'm not AP nor mainstream nor whatever other "types" of parents are out there ... I just do what works and what feels right and what makes sense for us and I read and I listen and I am flexible and I try different things.

Sorry to those of you who are having a reasonable discussion... I'm just fed up with the holier-than-thou attitude that is common around here...


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## orangecanoe (Aug 3, 2003)

Snowbaby--














The tone of your post is a little off-puttting. I'm not sure I understand the vehemence of your generalizations. The OP asked for opinions and it seems to me that that is what people gave--I saw it as people speaking from their own experience about what feels right and necessary to them.

We have a co-sleeper and she starts the night out there about 50% of the time. I can't imagine not having her any further away. I often wake to her noises and can most of the time intuit her gassy grunting from her hungry grunts.







I love being able to be so responsive to her needs even if I'm barely awake.

In the beginning I was also afraid of her rolling into me so I now put her slightly on her side w/ her back to me and this seems to help. She also seems to stir/flail less when she's snuggled super close to me like this. I also sleep w/ my arm around her still and this seems to help DH know where she is. He also prefers to sleep on his side facing her when she's in between us so he has a better sense of where she is.

Our cat slept w/ us before C was born and now prefers the foot of the bed. As soon as she came home we introduced a spray bottle to keep her (cat)out of the cosleeper and bed when she was getting pesky. I don't worry about the safety aspect as much as I worry about the waking the baby problem.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

"Here's my question; Would you and do you think it's safe to put a nb in their own room down the hall?"

Absolutely not. That's too far away for me to be able to hear and sense that she's doing alright. There are of course other reasons I don't want her separated from me, but safety is a big one!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

With all due respect, Snowbaby, I think your reaction is rather extreme. You sound very defensive about not cosleeping, and I don't think that's necessary. You won't lose your "AP" badge just because you crib-sleep, it's about putting your baby to bed where he/she wants/needs to be. For most people, that's right next to mama. But there are exceptions. Meeting your child's needs is what's important. It just so happens that most babies want to be by mama, and most mamas want to be by baby.

I'm not judging people when I say that *I* could never sleep a wink without my baby next to me. That *I* worry about SIDS and the baby's safety if I'm not right there. It's my reality, so that's how I feel. And therefore I cannot relate to those who sleep better with baby down the hall. However, I certainly don't disbelieve them that they sleep better that way, and so long as baby is happy, what's the problem? I don't think forcing people to cosleep when they are miserable serves any purpose. Being AP is about listening to your baby's cues. Some parents have babies who sleep fine in isolation. Therefore it's up to them which road to choose.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Snowbaby*
It really pisses me off how all over this board people are like "I'm not judging anyone but...." and then proceed to outright bash parents who do things differently or to passive-aggressively and indirectly insinuate that they are bad parents.

Of course, now someone will say why not keep her in the same room even if not the same bed ... well, we have six cats who are used to sleeping in our room and in our bed and start peeing all over the house and fighting with each other if their routine or space is changed. When we've locked them out of our bedroom, all hell breaks loose ... we tried this and ended up having to bring one to the vet as his ear was practically bitten off in a fight. They NEVER fight otherwise - it's always related to DH and I cramping their space by locking them out of somewhere. So, we just know better than to kick them out of the bedroom at night. But, if we keep them AND the baby in the room, then we have the problem of cats wanting to sleep on top of baby or with baby (suffocation dangers).

...

Hmmm, well maybe I had a *holier than thou* attitude, not sure, I was pretty certain I was speaking from expirience.... but now maybe I will take on the attitude??? We'll see how this goes.

To me, In my opinion (blah blah all that good stuff), to choose your cats over your babies is ridiculous! Sorry, but it is.

If it was ME, I would do something with the cats (find them a new home???) and bring my baby in my bedroom.

Obviously, this is all what *I* would do.

Cosleeping is ancient. People coslept to protect their babies. They slept with their kids to keep them safe. Obviously, there are not many dangers now a-days BUT it frightens me to no end, that there may be a fire and I can't get to my kids. I want my kids by me so I know that they are safe.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

I'm sorry this thread took an ugly turn mods. I was serious and curious also. I wasn't trying to start anything but a good topic.

I'm sorry that some people feel very defensivly about this thread. We all do what is best for our families. I just can't understand how putting a newborn off in another room would be best for the *baby*.

I'm not interested in what's best for your pets, sorry.
I don't feel that attitude you speak of snowbaby but I can't imagine why one would bother posting just to say how sick of the members here you are. That's your issue. If you *HATE* cosleeping then this forum is not going to be a benefit to you, obviously.


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Quote:

I just can't understand how putting a newborn off in another room would be best for the *baby*.
That is because for your baby it wasn't best. Like I said in my PP my DS didn't care either way - in fact in the month he slept with us I would say he slept *worse* then after he was moved to his room (but maybe it was just how he slept early on, we will never know). The reason it was *best* for him was because 1) he slept soundly and peacfully + 2) I was able to sleep soundly as well = I was a well rested mommy for him day and night and he was a well rested and happy baby. It really isn't that difficult - it is just the way it was.....

And as I said before I am not anti co-sleeping - I slept with my DD for 15 months, because that is what was *best* -FOR HER- and I was willing to do it, even though it was a very serious stain on me physically (I sleep TERRIBLY with anyone in bed - including DH. I can't have anyone touching me or I literly lay awake until my eyes just close out of pure exhaustion) and emotionally since I *know* the lack of sleep was a definate factor in my year long battle with PPD that I had after having her......

So, while I can see how for *you* it may be difficult to understand or even accept - for others it is simply not so black and white.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Sorry, I didn't mean in cases where the baby can't sleep well ect, I meant when a mother puts a newborn in their own room either by default or because the mother doesn't want to have the baby near her for her comfort. If a baby truly can't sleep with or near mom then by all means you have to do what helps that baby to sleep.


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## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

This babe sleeps best on our pillowtop bed, and sleeps longest when I'm asleep there too. If I need irrationally to check on him, he's there, and for me not having him reach fully-awake-and-crying means nursing back to sleep is easier. I was less nervous about my dd tho when I put her to bed in a crib I usually moved her to my bed when I retired.

I do feel my husband needs sleep more bc he has to leave the house to work and that is different. I know I work just as hard, but having to be dressed and among people and driving and travelling is harder in some ways. So he sleeps in his office for now, and that's fine.


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## grnbn76 (Mar 3, 2004)

I've now logged 7 years of co-sleeping. I've slept with noisy toddlers, grunting newborns, even a 5yo whose tonsils were literally the size of ping pong balls and they made her snore so loud you could hear her across the street. (No, I'm not exaggerating. You could walk across the street and hear her)
I can't imagine having to actually move to check on my sleeping babies. I think the noisier the better...if they're grunting, they're breathing, and you barely have to open an eyelid!
Nope...my newborns need their parents, so they sleep right in between us in the middle of our bed. I've always just known that's where they've belonged.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*
If a baby truly can't sleep with or near mom then by all means you have to do what helps that baby to sleep.

Exactly. And I've never seen anybody here advocate any differently. Moms whose babies sleep just fine in isolation have that option. And if it works for them, why not?

On a slightly different, but related, topic I've often wondered what makes a mother unable to cosleep successfully. I mean, most mothers seem to find that Nature takes over and their bodies adapt remarkably to the presence of a baby next to them. Many of us find the thought of being separated from baby quite distressing. But others seem to find they get anxious, or they get no sleep, when baby is in bed with them. I wonder how much of this is social conditioning (those who fear smothering their babes, for example: a common misconception that is spread around our culture as if it were fact) and how much of it is personality (is the mama just a naturally nervous individual, for example?? Or perhaps it is related to any sleep issues the mama might come into the situation with (chronic insomnia, for example). Anybody have any guesses?


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## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

We had a fire at our neighbor's house that almost burned our house- it did a lot of damage to the side of our house, and was put out just in time- so that has compounded any nervousness I might have had about being near baby. The fire was during the day, and thank god no one was hurt, but when the mind starts wandering into unrealistic territory late at night, I wonder how far the fire would have spread at night before someone noticed, and if my baby were across the hall or somewhere I would be in a panic. It's bad enough my ten year old is across the hall. In my paranoias I think about getting to her in an emergency. I don't think like this often, I want to point out, but it is definitely part of wanting to be close to a newborn. Newly postpartum women can be subject to all kinds of imaginings, and for me having him nearby alleviates them.

I have wondered about what contributes to different levels of comfort, too. I notice some of my doula clients, for instance, and friends are happy to have the baby in the hospital nursery while they sleep because they're afraid of not watching the baby. I would be a wreck if my baby were in a hospital nursery. I really don't think I could handle it. I need my baby nearby, and I don't fear squishing them in the bed; I know I won't. Others feel safe and more comfortable when baby is safely put in a crib in a closed room. I don't mind people holding my baby (depending on whom) and others wouldn't let folks hold their baby at this age, for instance, and still others think I'm too overprotective or ruled by my instincts. I too wonder where the difference might lie.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Piglet, I think it has ALOT to do with social conditioning.

I would have never put Emma in my bed for fear of killing her. I wouldn't have with Meg for a long long time. Same reason but this time I was told that I would kill her by a neonatologist. SHe may have been very right, Meg was preemie and on monitors. It took me learning and reading ALOT to realize that I wouldn't kill her. Seriously.

I finally put her in my bed with me a few months ago out of sheer exhaustion and after one night I knew I could never ever forget that she was there but I slept MUCH better. I was MADE to fear bedsharing.

That said I see cosleeping and bedsharing differently. If you can't share a bed that's FINE. The next move should, IMO, be cosleeping in perhaps a crib sidecared or something like that. IF the CHILD can't sleep in the same room as the mother, then I'd consider a seperate room.


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## Greensleeves (Aug 4, 2004)

.


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

I can only speak for myself but my co-sleeping issues have nothing to do with social conditioning....I just have a difficult time sleeping in general. If the conditions are not just right I find it almost impossible to fall asleep. Any noise or light or the wrong tempature can *really* effect my ability to sleep soundly - or at all. ANd I can in no way have *anyone* touching me while I sleep. I don't know why I am this way - I just know that I am.

Like I said before I did co-sleep with DD for 15 months and while there were definate pluses - I do love to snuggle in the morning and roll over at night to nurse and not worry about her in another room - as far as a good solution for getting *sleep* it was horrible for me. I had no fear of rolling on her or anything like that. Heck I *wanted* to co-sleep with her because it sounds so 'nice' - but for me it just wasn't good *at all*. I couldn't move because she would wake up everytime I turned over, I couldn't side-car her because she had to be pratically on me to sleep any lenght of time, I couldn't sleep soundly because of all the 'baby noises' she made......it just wasn't a good thing for me.....but it was what she needed and there was nothing I could do about it.

We will see how this new baby sleeps.....and hopfully it will be a better situation for all of us.....

(FYI - I really have nothing against co-sleeping, in fact I recommend it to everyone I know - it just isn't the best fit for *me*)

Now that dd is in her own room DH takes over the nightime duties when she needs someone (which is only about 1x a week







) I caught this the other day and it just made my heart melt...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...c/sleepweb.jpg


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## FitMama (Jul 20, 2003)

Obviously all families are different. Perhaps having a nb down the hall works well for that family. For my family, we wanted the baby with us in bed/a cosleeper crib. Things like fires and crib death DO enter my mind, though I'm not obsessive about it. Not to mention earthquakes, but that's another story lol.

Before I acquired the skill of nursing in bed, I would take DS to another room and sit up and nurse him in the middle of the night. I couldn't wait to get really good at latching on etc. so I could just stay in bed with him. Once that happened, I started sleeping great!!!


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## Tuesday (Mar 3, 2003)

I just wanted to reiterate something too. ... I was hoping, with my earlier post, to actually explain why some people might actually feel it's better to put their baby in a crib. If you know in your heart that it's not right for your baby, you or the rest of the family - then that is wonderful. But, there are so many people with various circumstances that may differ from you or I: different personalities, sleeping habits, familial arrangements, shift work, housing arrangements, anxieties, knowledge, intelligence, emotional temperments etc. etc. When someone asks, "I don't know why someone would do A,B, or C", I am assuming they want to know, really, why someone might and hopefully gain some insight into why a family might decide on a solution different than their own.









I ended up co-sleeping (and am so grateful and pleased I did this) but I began motherhood armed with nothing but mainstream advice from non-co-sleeping parents and books. I think I am a great loving mom who does the best she can. I am certain those people that put their baby in a crib down the hall from their bedroom do as well.







If we disagree with it, it doesn't mean it's wrong, does it? I don't know ... I just think most of us (meaning all parents) are just trying our best to get through each day and night, doing whatever it takes!


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## Snowbaby (Nov 23, 2003)

I owe everyone a HUGE apology. My post definitely was hostile and you are all right that I am very defensive about my choice. I didn't mean to turn this thread into anything nasty. I hate it when people do that and never meant to become one of those people. I am new to AP and am still learning about it and "transforming" my parenting style into something that makes sense to me ... i don't want to label myself AP nor any other thing -- I just want to borrow all that is good from different approaches and I suppose I often feel judged by all sides. My tone of my post came from this defensiveness and from A LOT OF SLEEP DEPRIVATION!!! Please accept my humble apology for being nasty.

Back to the cosleeping thing, I suppose in an ideal world, I would prefer co-sleeping. It DOES make sense to me that having baby right next to me would eliminate a lot of the hassle of getting up in the middle of the night, and who doesn't love to cuddle with their baby? Like I said, we did try it. Maybe we didn't try it long enough, maybe it wouldn't have worked had we tried it forever, maybe we'll implement it when she's older. However, at this age - my worries about something bad happening to her in our bed are much stronger than something bad happening to her in her own crib. I'm just weighing the two and choosing the lesser of two evils! I envy the fact that so many of you feel totally comfortable and can sleep soundly with your babies in your beds and that your babies can sleep soundly next to you. But that's just not the case for us - both my baby and I sleep worse together ... I wonder if my baby senses my anxiety and that's why she is also restless sleeping next to me at night (just a sidenote!). We do nap together (since I often don't really fall asleep, just lay down and hold her next to me or on top of me) and that is wonderful but if I need to actually sleep, I just can't do it with her next to me.

Piglet, you asked about factors make it so that some women don't want to sleep with their babies. I think your question assumes that it is the more natural instinct to want to. While you are probably right, I think the overarching instinct of a mother is to keep her young safe - whether that means by her side or away from her. Mothers in the wild will leave their youngs hidden somewhere (and pray that they are safe) while they hunt for food. While they want their young by their side at all times, they know that for their safety, they must briefly leave them while they perform this chore. This is kind of how I feel about putting my baby in her crib while both of us get some sleep. I know for other mothers, safety and co-sleeping are not mutually-exclusive and so that's not an issue. However, I do have to say that you are right about two things: my perceptions of the dangers are DEFINITELY influenced by social conditioning (i'm not ready to ignore social wisdom and, right now, the truth is that they jury is out on where baby is safest, both camps think they are right). AND I have always had severe insomnia that has in the past led to severe depression. So, FOR ME, I know that if I don't manage to get some rest, I could plunge into a really bad depression that would hurt my baby so much more than her being in her crib at night. However, when you wonder if non-cosleeping parents are just more anxious, the true answer is that it can go both ways. Crib-sleeping parents are worried about something bad happening if baby's in their bed (squishing or something) but cosleeping parents worry about something bad happening if baby's in their crib (fire, as an example given by a PP). So hopefully we can agree that one group is not more neurotic than the other (though I acknowledge my own neuroticism freely) : ) All parents worry about their children's safety ... they just define what's safe differently and have different circumstances.

One thing that I find interesting is how many of our instincts are nevertheless the same, whether we co-sleep or not. I, too, always wake up before my baby has to cry. I am usually standing over her crib before her eyes are even open. My DH laughs about how well-tuned in my system is to hers.

wemoon "To me, In my opinion (blah blah all that good stuff), to choose your cats over your babies is ridiculous! Sorry, but it is."

This actually made me laugh cuz it was such a good comeback! (can you tell I slept a little?). You are absolutely correct that it is ridiculous to put our cats over our baby. If I thought that her sleeping in her crib was damaging in any way or if she was missing out on anything, then absolutely we would kick the cats out of the house and bring her in the bedroom but we think she's okay in her crib. Funnily enough, recent research has shown that exposing children to multiple pets before the age of one significant decreases their chances of being allergic later on (allergies are HUGE in both my family and DH's family) so ... is it more beneficial to her in the long run to sleep in our bed or to build immunities to allergies? Always a decision to be made!! (okay, i'm just being cute mainly - but do you get my point?)

Auburn mama - your point is well taken, no offense at all. Just like you, my baby wins every time when it comes to health, safety, comfort, etc. I don't think our cats are a danger to her in the sense that they want to hurt her, but they ARE animals and don't know better than to try to snuggle with her. She's just too small for their kind of loving. Too many people just throw out their pets when a baby comes along and I think that's inhumane. If our cats in any way become a real threat to the baby, they WILL be gone in the blink of an eye ... but DH and I realize that the situation is new (baby's 5 weeks old) and they are getting used to her and learning what is and is not okay behavior with her. We love our animals enough to not throw them out without giving us all a chance to get accostumed to our growing family. You are right though to say that it WOULD be easier to care for a newborn WITHOUT also caring for 6 cats.

Okay, sorry for the novel and sorry for my previous hostile post. I hope that I got my point across this time without being offensive or nasty ... it really isn't usually my style. Peace.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

That's very big of you snowbaby. It's hard to admit that you were wrong and MOST of us don't do it nearly enough. We've all lost our temper, congrats on your new baby!

I guess it doesn't makes sense to everyone but I seriously can't IMGAINE putting a newborn in another room. I couldn't sleep.

I'm my mind I either picture a mom who does that
a) having some way I'm unaware of, of feeling OK and safe about their baby being ok when they return or
b) being unconcerned about the baby all together. Yes this does happen with PPD and even for other reasons.

As I said, I seriously can't understand how anyone would not worry. Because I would, not because it's wrong not to. I can't understand how anyone would opt for formula and bind their breast as soon an the baby comes but people do it everyday. It's al so out of the realm of what I find instinctual for ME. People have their reasons, as we have heard through this thread.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

ok I have a question for you guys.. knowing that crib-sleeping is a very "new" trend, and in many countries, unheard of.. what do you think those parents to? this is why I have a hard time understanding the "it didn't work for us" argument. for me, it's not about working for someone, it's about baby's NEED to be next to his/her mother. because, after all, cribs were invented by men and still, unheard of in MANY parts of the world (actually, MOST of the world)

just genuinly curious!

Carmen


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## RiceMomma (Jul 23, 2004)

I am a non-co-sleeping momma, and I just wanted to share, since the question seems to be "Why would a mother put her baby in another room?" Maybe, if you put yourself in my shoes for just a moment, you could understand- you may not feel the same way, but you could probably imagine why someone else would feel the way I do.

First off, let me say, when they are newborns and are nursing every couple hours, they sleep in my arms, or in a bassinet right next to the bed. But as they get older and are sleeping 4-5 hours at a time, they go in the crib, right in the next room, not more than 10 feet away. Like others here, I cannot sleep with the child right next to me. I have three very young children and spend most of the day with one or more practically, if not literally, attached to me. I need to sleep- I need to stretch out in my bed with no one touching me, and I need to sleep. I don't do well when I don't sleep. Yes- I NEED. It's okay for me to get what I need too, isn't it?

Why can't I sleep? there's the constant noises that wake me through out the night, and then there's the snuggling. Okay, I love snuggling as much as the next person, but my kids want to be right under me, and I'm an active sleeper, and every time I move, the kid gets closer and closer, pretty soon, I'm right on the edge of the bed, and I have to move the kid and get resituated. I just can't get a good night's sleep. Plus, my kids think sleeping with mom and dad means it's time to play, so they'd never fall asleep that way now. But when they are sick, they do sleep with us. I do want them close all the time then.

Another reason is that my husband and I see very little of each other, and we do need some alone time in the evening. A strong marriage is important not just for me or him, but for the children as well.

When it comes to nursing, my 8 mo still nurses once or twice at night, and all he has to do is grunt, and I'm up. One night, the baby just sighed, and I bolted upright in bed, waking my husband in the process, who patted me on the shoulder and told me, "it's okay, go back to sleep." I'm very in tune with the little guy, so that's why I feel so comfortable with him in the crib. It is a pain to walk into another room to nurse, but I do it automatically now.

I love my kids so much, like everyone else here, and I try my best to do what's right for the whole family. For what its worth, my kids are happy kids, and the older two who sleep in beds love to sleep there- my middle child will even crawl back in when she needs a little quiet time with her blanky. That's how it is at our house. I hope everyone can understand.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
ok I have a question for you guys.. knowing that crib-sleeping is a very "new" trend, and in many countries, unheard of.. what do you think those parents to? this is why I have a hard time understanding the "it didn't work for us" argument. for me, it's not about working for someone, it's about baby's NEED to be next to his/her mother. because, after all, cribs were invented by men and still, unheard of in MANY parts of the world (actually, MOST of the world)

just genuinly curious!

Carmen

I don't know Carmen, really I don't know the answers to any of this. Cribs are really weird to me, really foreign. I really do not get why people use them. All I can think is that it must be some sort of conspiracy or brainwashing, but I'm freakin weirdo incase you didn't know! Everything is a conspiracy in my book.

My kids have slept with me from day one, until now ages 3 and 5. I don't see it changing anytime soon. I like getting cuddled, I like the stories....*Hey you were hogging the bed last night!*. I like to just embrace the family bed expirience with all its good and bad times. Some nights I didn't sleep. Life goes on. Really it does. It is all what you make of it. Like I never slept when I was in college! Never! I was always up till 3/4 in the morning then get up and go to school at 8. I don't recall thinking it was so aweful, saying things like I NEED sleep and ho hum my life sucks. So look at taking care of your babies as a party! Dunno, works for me I geuss, but I party-hardy :LOL


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Quote:

this is why I have a hard time understanding the "it didn't work for us" argument. for me, it's not about working for someone, it's about baby's NEED to be next to his/her mother.
I find this train of thought in regards to alot of things lately.....that the mother should sacrifice everything for the precieved 'need' of the baby....and I don't believe it has to be that black and white.

Some babies simply do not 'need' to be next to their parents to sleep. Some are perfectly content to be swaddled, or have room to strech out themselves and move around - some actually prefer to be alone. I have not read one post in this thread where someone said "Even though my baby hated sleeping in the crib I just couldn't stand co-sleeping so I made them" I have heard many times that it was difficult for the mom to sleep that way and the baby had no issues sleeping in a crib - or even did better that way - so I am not sure where the problem is?

I was one of those mothers who did sacrifice ALOT in this department for the 'need' of my baby - and while I feel good that I was able to do that for her, I honestly don't know if I will be able to do it again. I pray that this next baby will want to sleep in a crib - or will be able to be gently convinced that it isn't so bad







- but we will see..... I don't think it was *at all* healthy for our *family* to have me be in such a miserable state. Am I being selfish - I don't think so - I am being realistic, I am recognizing my boundries and doing the best I can within them. Since I have become a mother I have found that although I would love to live every parenting ideal that I have to the fullest - I simply can't. Instead of beating myself up about this I accept my limits and do my best within them.

For me co-sleeping is *very* difficult, it is an area that I need to draw a line, same with ebfing - I *hated* nursing for the last year but stuck it out as long as I could....yet nursing for 26 months and having a very child friendly yet mother-led weaning wasn't 'good enough' for others.....oh well, we all do the best we we can do.









And again let me reiterate - I am all FOR co-sleeping, I think that alot of babies do prefer to sleep that way and it can be a wonderful thing for both mom and baby....but please understand that it is not that way for everyone.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Graceoc*
Some babies simply do not 'need' to be next to their parents to sleep. Some are perfectly content to be swaddled, or have room to strech out themselves and move around - some actually prefer to be alone.

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to wholeheartedly disagree here, 100%. ALL babies need their parents. some may cry when without them, and some may not,. but that NOT take a biological NEED away. the in-arms phase is for everyone, not just some babies. just because a baby doesn't cry when put down, that doesn't mean she "likes" her crib. she's a baby. she just doesn't complain or cry, because of her personality. but ALL babies need their parents, especially their mothers. have you read the continuum concept? I would recommend reading that book, very interesting. my son is the best sleeper in the world, he's 6 months and he's cried 3 times in his life. he's like the most quiet baby in the world. he never cries if I put him down, but do I? I'm with him at least 22 of the 24 hours of the day (either holding him, nursing him or cosleeping) and dh takes the other 2. not because HE asked me to, but because he has a need, just like every single other baby in this world, to be loved and held.

wemoon.. add me on the list for freaks. cribs give me chills. Vicente takes naps alone (sometimes) and we do all the sleeping on our bed. I just have never put any of my kids in a crib and it freaks me out, not even in my room next to me, like I said before, it's a new trend. cribsleeping is UNHEARD of in MANY, MANY countries. MOST of the world. we are NOT the weirdos in most of the world, we are the norm. if babies were meant to sleep in cribs, a closable portable automatic crib would come out of our vaginas with the placenta!

that's just how I feel.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

I can't believe how differently people feel about this subject. I'm more middle of the road I guess.

We have 2 cribs all set up in the nursery for Meg and this new baby. Meg still sleeps in a pack n play in my room next to my bed. I will use them for naps and then later for night time.

Ricemama, I said newborns. I'm not opposed to older babies sleeping in a crib or anywhere else they are comfortable.

Grace, I wasn't saying that only the babys need should matter. Of course as mothers we have needs but I would think that when our babies needs are not being met it would be hard for ours to be either. IE; if the baby slept better with mom but the mom didn't like cosleeping it wouldn't make it any beter to put the baby in another room. The mother would be kept up by a fussing baby and riddled with guilt. Every family is different.

LMB, No one ever pushed a king sized bed out either...?

The point I was trying to get at int he OP was not about taking a great cosleeping arrangement and jacking with it. It was about bringing home a baby and for NO good reason putting that newborn baby in another room. Babies are not small adults. If there is no reason to do so why would someone do that?

That goes back to what piglet said and I think she hit the nail on the head much better than I. It's got to be about social conditioning. That's just what you do? That's what cribs are for?


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*
LMB, No one ever pushed a king sized bed out either...?


no, people used to (and still do in many cultures) sleep on the floor. sleeping together, the whole family, on the floor or in a bed is not much of a difference. it's the 'togetherness" that counts. it's CREATING a whole separate environment for a baby, where that baby spends half of her day, say, 12 hours, in. I just don't feel this is natural. I disagree with ANY baby "needing" it. I'm ok with parents CHOOSING to put their kids in a crib. but I don't buy the "my baby wanted to be in a crib" because I honestly feel it's the parent that either thinks that because baby is very calm and doesn't cry in the crib (this does not mean it's not a need for that baby) or the parent just honestly can't sleep with baby and then chooses to put baby in a crib. I feel it's a need for babies to sleep next to their mothers. I truly believe SIDS is in here somewhere, babies sleeping alone in a separate environment than the mother. JMO, ofcourse


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

hmmmm... I"m totally not into the family bed thing.
It's for very selfish and also very practical reasons.

I see NO difference in cosleeping right next to mom but not in the same bed and bedsharing. That's just how I feel about it. I know some moms here are more rigid about family bed being what's natural and saying that a bassinett isn't cosleeping. I totally disagree. It's not up to any of us to make up the rules of AP as we go along.

I never have and never will have a family bed. Why?
Reason 1) I have brand new beautiful bedroom furniture and I like my bedroom looking like a bedroom. Not a mosaic of wall to wall beds.
2) It would be impossible to make my 4 year onld sleep with us. I ca't even talk her into it when I want her to.
3) my 2 year old is epileptic.

We bought a 4 bedroom home so that everyone would have a space of their own. I don't insist that they sleep in it but it's there.. I am making the new baby and Meg share a nursery since it won't be used much for a long while but for dressing, diaper changes, play and nursing. Neither of them will care though and when they are a little older i'll split them up if need be.

I'm by no means saying that I think family bed or cribsleeping are bad ideas. Both work for different people. I'm just not about to agree that a newborns place is down the hall by default.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

First of all, Snowbaby, you showed alot of class in that last post of yours. Apology more than accepted!
















I wanted to address your point about animal mothers leaving their babies to go search for food (I'm afraid I'm a true biology geek and couldn't pass this one by)...

Mammalian mothers can be divided into two groups: those who have "support" from a mate or members of their social group, and those who don't have mates and are solitary creatures. The physiology of these two groups is quite distinct. For one thing, the composition of the mother's milk is different: the "isolation" moms have a significantly higher fat content, allowing their young to go without nursing for longer periods of time. Their young also behave differently. They do NOT emit distress calls when mother is absent (which would obviously attract predators). These are just two of the major ones, but there are other differences as well (like body temperature regulation, for example).

We know that humans, and all primates, do not fall into this category. Not only because we are social animals (meaning there is always someone around to hold a baby), but also because our milk composition matches those of mammalian mothers who do NOT leave their babies' sides. Low fat, frequent nursings, near-continuous physical contact with adults...the young do NOT like to be out-of-arms, and will emit distress cries if they find themselves so abandoned (under the evolutionary expectation that if someone is not holding them, they are at risk, and that if someone is around, a distress cry will provoke an innate instinctual response - even in female group members other than the mother, adolescents included - to pick up the infant).

Now, while I think it's very accurate to say that it is UNNATURAL for a baby to sleep in isolation, I do know from years of research that biovariablity is a substantial consideration. Not all creatures are the same, and that certainly applies to behaviour. I'm not sure it is fair to assume that a baby who sleeps happily in a crib still "needs" his mother by his side. And I certainly have no objection to parents who feel better with baby in a crib, if baby is happy there. While I honestly believe that most babies don't like cribs (evident in the supposed 33% rate of "sleep disorders" in North American babies that is virtually non-existent in other cultures; not to mention the host of sleep training manuals available to parents), I'm quite willing to accept that there are babies out there who sleep better with a bit of space, and/or are quite accepting of a crib.

I asked the question about what makes a mom unable to cosleep, and I think we've gotten some good answers. Using Graceoc as an example...obviously she has never had an easy time with sleep, and I don't think it's at all unreasonable that she doesn't enjoy cosleeping. I also feel it's apparent from her posts that she would not force her child to a crib, but rather is grateful that her child took to the crib. Someone else mentioned they had a susceptibility to depression, which is most certainly triggered by sleep deprivation, and that too makes perfect sense to me. I guess my point is, that perhaps those who don't cosleep are understandable exceptions to the general expectation that cosleeping would/should come naturally to all mothers.

I also agree with whoever suggested that the babies may be picking up on the mother's anxiety. I do find it hard to understand how a newborn would have troubles sleeping next to mama, but if the mother herself has anxiety or sleep issues then it makes perfect sense. Not only are babies sensitive to mood, but let's remember that the mother guides the infant in their sleep cycles, breathing, and heart rate. If the mother is having her own sleep issues, chances are her baby is not going to be cycling through the normal sleep cycle. So I can see how this ends up being a vicious circle in which nobody is sleeping well.

Snowbaby: I just wanted to mention that ITA with you about cats being "non-disposable"...but also wanted to reassure you that your cats will almost certainly stay away from your newborn. My cat had always slept with me, but when DD came along she wanted nothing to do with that noisy, unpredictable creature. Besides, I'm always aware of where the cat is, just as I'm always aware of where baby is. So don't let the cat issue scare you.

And...I have to respectfully disagree that the jury is out on safety of cosleeping. I've reviewed the data very carefully on both sides and the evidence for the preferred safety of a crib is weak, and based on very shoddy science in most cases (I'm a research scientist and quite skilled at critically reviewing data, so I'm not just saying this out of bias







). The biological evidence accumulated by such researchers as Dr. James McKenna (visit his sleep lab here) is pretty compelling, especially in the context of evolutionary behaviour and anthropology. Mammalian babies simply were not designed to sleep in isolation, so it makes sense that there are adaptative behaviours that surround cosleeping, such as the above mentioned fact that mothers regulate their babies brain waves, sleep cycles, respiration, heart rate, and body temperature. That mothers' own sleep cycles change in response to cosleeping, avoiding the deeper (less "aware") stages of sleep, while still engaging in restorative REM sleep. I think SIDS is a natural consequence of a neurologically-underdeveloped infant (which human babies are: the most immature of any primate at birth due to large brain size competing with the limited pelvic girth of a bipedal creature) being deprived of the stimulus of an adult nearby. It's actually surprising to me that the rate of SIDS isn't higher than it is, but again that probably speaks to biovariability and the adaptive nature of humans.

Okay, I'll shut up now...


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

please don't! you are my MDC idol! :LOL


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

It's going to take me a while to soak that up....


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiceMomma*
Another reason is that my husband and I see very little of each other, and we do need some alone time in the evening. A strong marriage is important not just for me or him, but for the children as well.

I swear, I'm being perfectly literal here when I say I don't understand this. I've heard it before, and I don't get it.

The only way to make a marriage strong is to have alone time in a bed in the evenings?









My DH and I have alone time. We have it when DD has gone to bed for the night. Sure, she's in our bed, but we cuddle on the couch, watch movies, play cards, and if we want to have sex there are plenty of places to do that, too. If we're out and about and DD falls asleep we have time to have nice, long chats (one of the things we love to do is go for long drives on weekends around nap time: DD is out for about 1.5 hours and we have some wonderful conversations on these trips).

Maybe someone can explain to me why having a bed to yourself is somehow critical to maintaining a healthy marriage? Is it a euphamism for sex (which you don't need a bed for), or is there something I'm missing here?

_edited to add:_ I didn't read the posts after my last one. looks like you got your request without having to ask, LMB...lol!


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

I have NO idea. I'm totally missing the point fo that too.
My DD sleep next to me in her own bed and that has never been a problem for us. I wouldn't do anything with her IN our bed or when she's awake but..

The quility time that helps DH and I keep our marriage strong never happens in our bed...unless of course it's snuggling with the kids and playing before bedtime.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
I swear, I'm being perfectly literal here when I say I don't understand this. I've heard it before, and I don't get it.

The only way to make a marriage strong is to have alone time in a bed in the evenings?









My DH and I have alone time. We have it when DD has gone to bed for the night. Sure, she's in our bed, but we cuddle on the couch, watch movies, play cards, and if we want to have sex there are plenty of places to do that, too. If we're out and about and DD falls asleep we have time to have nice, long chats (one of the things we love to do is go for long drives on weekends around nap time: DD is out for about 1.5 hours and we have some wonderful conversations on these trips).

Maybe someone can explain to me why having a bed to yourself is somehow critical to maintaining a healthy marriage? Is it a euphamism for sex (which you don't need a bed for), or is there something I'm missing here?

_edited to add:_ I didn't read the posts after my last one. looks like you got your request without having to ask, LMB...lol!

piglet.. I oficially LOVE you!









yes.. my dh and I cosleep with our kids.. we put our kids to bed in our bed, then we cuddle on the couch.. and do other things.. you know... other things.. :LOL

we have dates, sometimes, when they kids have gone to bed. we talk, we make margaritas and sit on the balcony (I don't drink but he'll make me a virgin margarita) I mean, the possibilities are endless! honestly, even if we *could* have our bed to ourselves (and we've tried "doing it" there) we wouldn't want to! it makes too much noise and it's rather uncomfortable







:


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
piglet.. I oficially LOVE you!










Um DITTO! :LOL Piglet you are a co-sleeping Goddess!

You know, I once had a really nice bed. But then I learned that it means diddly squat. So what? Material possesions will never last, the love and memories of cosleeping will. My room is wall to wall bed


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wemoon*
Um DITTO! :LOL Piglet you are a co-sleeping Goddess!

You know, I once had a really nice bed. But then I learned that it means diddly squat. So what? Material possesions will never last, the love and memories of cosleeping will. My room is wall to wall bed









yeah, that!

and to be honest.. I cannot understand not cosleeping with a baby because of nice furniture? yeah, that's called sacrifice. if i were not breastfeeding, I'd have heck of a body! but you know.. my children need me more than my mirror... i love having a perfect room, furniture, whatever. but my babes come first and my babes need mama.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Aw geez, you guys are making me blush!









I have my heart set on an Asian themed bedroom set, with a platform style bed, tatami mats, and futon-style mattresses, a headboard that angles for sitting up and reading, all in a lovely dark wood-stain.

Right now, it's a king size mattress on the floor. In our new place we'll have two queens on the floor.

I figure by the time both kids are out of our bed, we'll actually be able to afford our dream bedroom set and pay cash, instead of buying on credit now...So it actually worked out perfectly! :LOL


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Quote:

Now, while I think it's very accurate to say that it is UNNATURAL for a baby to sleep in isolation, I do know from years of research that biovariablity is a substantial consideration. Not all creatures are the same, and that certainly applies to behaviour. I'm not sure it is fair to assume that a baby who sleeps happily in a crib still "needs" his mother by his side. And I certainly have no objection to parents who feel better with baby in a crib, if baby is happy there. While I honestly believe that most babies don't like cribs (evident in the supposed 33% rate of "sleep disorders" in North American babies that is virtually non-existent in other cultures; not to mention the host of sleep training manuals available to parents), I'm quite willing to accept that there are babies out there who sleep better with a bit of space, and/or are quite accepting of a crib.

Quote:

I guess my point is, that perhaps those who don't cosleep are understandable exceptions to the general expectation that cosleeping would/should come naturally to all mothers.
Piglet - that you for the above insight and comments. I was begining to feel like no one *wanted* to understand where I was coming from.......thanks.

my~hearts~light - I think a co-sleeping arrangement with baby in the same room as mom and dad is a great compromise between bedsharing and total isolation. If my baby will allow we will have this very arrangement.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

loving-my-babies said:


> yeah, that!
> 
> and to be honest.. I cannot understand not cosleeping with a baby because of nice furniture? yeah, that's called sacrifice. if i were not breastfeeding, I'd have heck of a body! but you know.. my children need me more than my mirror... i love having a perfect room, furniture, whatever. but my babes come first and my babes need mama.[/QUOTE
> 
> Why is it not considered cosleeping lately here if you are using a bassinette? I'm sorry that some mothers feel that they have to sacrifice to cosleep but I don't. I have a nice bedroom and a bed for my baby right next to it. When I lay down our heads are maybe a foot apart. Having a nice home is important but you can bet my babies come first. Then again if I want to put her in bed with me for whatever reason I can and do. I have a king sized bed. It doesn't make you or I the better or lesser mother that I have my own bedroom the way that *I* want it and you have yours set up to accomodate your household. The function is still the same. The reasoning it still the same. We both want our babies close to us.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

I guess I just don't see that as a compromise. It's just as good in my eyes. In my mind I imagine it's the safest place for a baby. No danger of being suffocated and yet close enough to have the benefits of mama close by. I hope it works out well for you Grace. That's my plan too. I knwo that I'll end up with the baby sleeping with me some, I can't stay awake when i'm nursing.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I haven't read all the other replies yet but I'm sorry that you are appalled by someone not wanting to sleep with their baby. my children were both in my room for 4 weeks. During those 4 weeks I did not sleep and went into severe depression. I have been a diagnosed insomniac since I was 7. I can't sleep with noise of any kind of people touching me. Having the kids in my room made me insane with tiredness, depression and frequent panic attacks (until you've been a true insomniac you won't understand this). When they were put in their own rooms I was finally able to sleep between feedings. At 21 months my daughter STILL nightwakes and I have no problem going to her room to nurse her. My husband has the monitor on his side of the bed (her room is straight across the hall from us but I have to have a loud white noise machine going to sleep) so I don't hear all the squirming and snoring (my kids both snore too) and when she wakes, not crying, just calling for me, if I don't hear he does and tells me. I have never left my kids to cry and I always respond immediately. So should I have them in my room and become a basket case or put them in their own rooms and be a functioning human being? Man I guess I'm just selfish.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*
I guess I just don't see that as a compromise. It's just as good in my eyes. In my mind I imagine it's the safest place for a baby. No danger of being suffocated and yet close enough to have the benefits of mama close by. I hope it works out well for you Grace. That's my plan too. I knwo that I'll end up with the baby sleeping with me some, I can't stay awake when i'm nursing.


by what you are saying, there's a danger of being suffocated by co-sleeping? research suggests otherwise. I truly believe it's impossible for me to suffocate the baby. and also, I want to say, I find your POV mother-centered, not baby-centered. I think it's important to see what our babies want. I am sure if your baby could talk and you asked her if she would rather sleep in a bassinette next to your bed or with you, she would say with you. and using a co-sleeper, may be considered cosleeping, but a basinette, in my eyes, is not cosleeping, it's the same as crib-sleeping, except much closer to your bed. but it's still a separate closed environment. by definition, the word cosleeping is sharing sleep in the same physical place, this place in my case is the family bed.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

That's not fair. This thread was and is not talking about insomniacs. No one said they were allaped. If you HAD read the entire thread you would understand that I was talking about doing this by default, not with a good reason like insomnia ect. Why get so defensive witout taking the time to read the whole thread?


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
by what you are saying, there's a danger of being suffocated by co-sleeping? research suggests otherwise. I truly believe it's impossible for me to suffocate the baby. and also, I want to say, I find your POV mother-centered, not baby-centered. I think it's important to see what our babies want. I am sure if your baby could talk and you asked her if she would rather sleep in a bassinette next to your bed or with you, she would say with you. and using a co-sleeper, may be considered cosleeping, but a basinette, in my eyes, is not cosleeping, it's the same as crib-sleeping, except much closer to your bed. but it's still a separate closed environment. by definition, the word cosleeping is sharing sleep in the same physical place, this place in my case is the family bed.

I do think it's a *possible* danger in my mind, yes. I would like to say that I find your POV rather... Well I won't go there

I'm sure if you could talk you your 2 year old she would talk back. Unfortunatly, my 2 year old can't talk and we never had the option of cosleeping in the same bed until recently but of course at 2 she's pretty well adjusted. As I said she's epileptic. In my *mother centered* approach I decided that should she seizeor overheat and then seize and roll off the bed or wiggle under the pillow, in a crack ect it would not be safe for her.

You have the right to your opinion. I have the right to think it's wrong. It's not a contest, it's a sleeping arrangement.


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Quote:

and also, I want to say, I find your POV mother-centered, not baby-centered. I think it's important to see what our babies want. I am sure if your baby could talk and you asked her if she would rather sleep in a bassinette next to your bed or with you, she would say with you. and using a co-sleeper, may be considered cosleeping, but a basinette, in my eyes, is not cosleeping, it's the same as crib-sleeping, except much closer to your bed. but it's still a separate closed environment. by definition, the word cosleeping is sharing sleep in the same physical place, this place in my case is the family bed.
Well since she didn't say it I will - why the attitude? I think those of us how don't bedshare for whatever reason have explained our situations. Why do you have to call names? And yes 'I find your POV mother-centered, not baby-centered' is what I consider namecalling.







:

I could understand if we were not attentive to our babies, if were were forcing them to sleep isolated with nothing there for instant comfort or even worse CIO - but that is not what we are talking about at all. We are talking about having a baby either at arms length (with the crib literly next to the bed) or in the same room at all times.......I just don't understand how that is so 'mother-centered' and not meeting the needs of the baby. You may not be saying it in so many words - but your post reads that we are not good enough mothers because we don't sleep in the same bed with our babies and that is simply not true.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

my-hearts-light: I don't think that example is fair at all. your baby has a condition and that makes it all different. ofcourse, I am not going to argue with you because I don't have an epileptic child, so that situation is different. I am talking about children with no health problems, these children, in my opinion, need to be close to their mother at bedtime, I would say, the first year, is crucial for babies.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Right but you said MY approach was mother centered and I already listed my reasoning for no bedsharing one of them being about having a bedroom and one because my baby is epileptic. Of course my situation is different. People here need to understand that no one has the same family and the same life. The division here recently is sad. It's sad that it's caused by people trying to trumph other mamas AP values.


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## RiceMomma (Jul 23, 2004)

When I said my husband and I see very little of each other and we need our evenings together, this was just one of the reasons I don't continue to co-sleep (granted to you, MHL, that you were talking about newborns in your OP, but others are taking it much further.)

And it's very literal that hubby and I don't have much time together- he works full-time so that I can be at home with the babies, and he is a full time college student. We prefer to have our bed to ourselves, and that's our choice, and it's not anyone's business what we do in our bedroom, and even less anyone's business where we have sex. It's so sad that other people can't respect that choice- a choice that is NOT hurting my children.

More on the topic- I agree that it is social conditioning that people put their kids right in the crib when they come home from the hospital. Everytime I take the babe to the Dr, they give out tips sheets about baby's care, and it always says emphatically not to co-sleep. Many first time moms just think this is what you're supposed to do- it's the same with many things, like disposables diapers- it's just what we're taught we're supposed to do. A new mom is bombarded with advice. When I brought my first baby home, my MIL, who I adore and who only meant to help, told me I held my baby too much, that she needed rice cereal in her bottle and that I should flick her foot really hard to wake her up if she falls asleep during nursing. New moms need AP-er's to reach out to them and teach- gently, invitingly- not judgmentally and with a superiority complex.

Personally, I think co-sleeping is great for those who find it works for their family. I shared my situation for those who claimed to want to understand another POV, but I suspect they don't really want to understand at all.


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## Snowbaby (Nov 23, 2003)

Where's the evidence that people (current adult around the world) who slept in cribs are worse off than those who slept in their parents' beds or in their parents' rooms? There are plenty of healthy and plenty of dysfunctional folk on both camps.

What exactly are those creatures hiding under the crib that will snatch the baby away and hurt it? I'm being funny but really, you guys make it sound like there are ghosts everywhere in your house ready eat up these babies unless they're in your arms. The world is not that unsafe, babies are not that vulnerable and, yes, like they say "shit happens" and shit can happen with the baby in your arms or in his/her crib. Sorry for the cursing ... just using the saying accurately









As for the argument that in most countries, families sleep together, therefore it's what's natural .... have we considered the fact that they may "cosleep" because they can't afford houses big enough to have separate rooms or afford beds or cribs for their kids or even for themselves. Many sleep together out of necessity!! Give them a bigger house, beds, cribs and see if they refuse it and see if most of them don't automatically put their kid in another room. Maybe cosleeping is uncommon in america (and other industrialized countries) because people actually have to work *against* their instinct in order to cosleep despite having the resources NOT to.

FYI - something being "new" (which in the case of cribs still means a few hundred years) doesn't make it "bad". So the fact that cribs are a newish thing doesn't automatically justify the argument that they are no good. Neither does the fact that most of the world doesn't have them. Most of the world doesn't have access to a toilet or running water ... but aren't we glad we have those, they have really improved our hygiene and prolonged our lifespan. Just because most of the world does something one way, it still doesn't mean it's better or right or more natural.

Lets not assume that we know the workings of babies inside out. None of us really do. So much about babies is STILL a mystery. So to claim that babies *need* to be against their mothers bodies every second of the day is just an assumption. Maybe babies also need to be left to be for some period of time. Granted, in modern day there's a huge push for premature independence on the part of infants/babies, however, let's not overcompensate by shifting toward pushing for over-codependence and enmeshment. Maybe there are negative consequences to not allowing an infant to spend some time alone. Just a thought, but I'm not expert.

Regarding a couple's need for alone time (without baby) in their own bed -- some of you said that you and your DH have this time by leaving your baby in your bed to go hang out on the couch or have intimacy elsewhere... how is baby alone in your bed better than baby alone in his/her crib? From your post, I gather that you do, in fact, leave your child to sleep alone somewhere for some period of time? Well, that's what I do too so why are we arguing? .... it's just a matter of location, location, location.

I also think it's HUGELY important to take the mother's needs into account and it is OKAY for a mother to satisfy her own needs as long as her child is not put in danger. It is imperative actually. And in taking care of herself, the mother can model to her child how to engage in self-care. We are mothers ... we are not slaves nor are we saints nor martyrs nor perfect creatures. There's IS a duty to take care of your baby's mother and of your baby's parents' relationship and, yes, sometimes this means "baby in crib".

*wemoon*: in college, when my morning classes were over, I'd go to my dorm room and sleep all afternoon and on the weekends I'd sleep until 1pm and the rest of the day, I'd sit around with my friends watching t.v. or just talking. Now from the moment I open my eyes, I am caring for my child full-time and cleaning house and running errands. So, unless you mean that I should sleep with my baby during the night but ship her off during the day so I could lounge -- I don't think the analogy applies.

*loving-my-babies*: "I truly believe it's impossible for me to suffocate the baby."

Data: "incident data from January 1990 to December 1997 linked adult beds to at least 515 baby deaths, 121 were co-sleeping deaths, that is, rolling on top of or against baby while sleeping; more than three-quarters involved babies younger than three months of age. The other 394 deaths were due to suffocation or entrapment between a mattress and a wall, bed frame, headboard, footboard, bed railings or adjacent furniture."

It's possible! (even if unlikely or safer than crib sleeping)

*piglet68*: We ARE social animals and, therefore, as our social environment changes, we adapt to it. Once upon a time, children were raised by communities. In some places, they still are. Babies are breastfed by many women, not just their mothers and are handed over from woman to woman so that it can be held at all times while the biological mother takes a break (for whatever reason). Nowadays, we don't all have that luxury (most of us don't). If I had people around taking over some of the breastfeeding or holding or cuddling or changing or even cooking my meals or cleaning my house, then I would imagine that a restful night's sleep wouldnt' be such a big deal and I could just sleep with my baby. But, our current social world dictates that I do EVERYTHING ... and in order to do everything without dying... I need a little sleep here and there and I get that best with baby in her crib.

I can assure you that my baby does not emit distress cries when I finally put her in her crib nicely swaddled after being fed, changed and held all day. If she were emitting these cries, I wouldn't leave her there.

I think it's funny (and sad) that there is even argument among cosleepers about what "cosleeping" means. Is it baby in bed? Baby attached to bed on a sleeper? Baby in the same room? Exactly how many feet away or close by does the baby have to be for it to be cosleeping? Does the baby have to be "touching" mommy or just in the same bed? I'm being sarcastic but also asking for real. Who exactly took the ruler and figured out what distance is optimal for baby?

My point is that each of us is only an expert when it comes to our own baby (and even then, not really). We know very little about other women's babies and, therefore, none of us can dictate what is BEST.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:

Where's the evidence that people (current adult around the world) who slept in cribs are worse off than those who slept in their parents' beds or in their parents' rooms? There are plenty of healthy and plenty of dysfunctional folk on both camps.
this sounds so much like the "I was formula fed and I'm ok" argument. are you? really? can you tell me for certain?

Quote:

As for the argument that in most countries, families sleep together, therefore it's what's natural .... have we considered the fact that they may "cosleep" because they can't afford houses big enough to have separate rooms or afford beds or cribs for their kids or even for themselves. Many sleep together out of necessity!! Give them a bigger house, beds, cribs and see if they refuse it and see if most of them don't automatically put their kid in another room. Maybe cosleeping is uncommon in america (and other industrialized countries) because people actually have to work *against* their instinct in order to cosleep despite having the resources NOT to.
I have to disagree here, I have been in many countries around the world, where crib sleeping is unheard of, but cribs so exists (only "weird" people have them in these places) almost like they are ashamed of even admitting they have cribs. people don't cosleep because they don't have money to buy a bed! believe me, they don't! they cosleep because they go into parenting believing that is best, and coincidentally, their babies never cry! it's the natural thing to do! nature intended things to be this way!

Quote:

FYI - something being "new" (which in the case of cribs still means a few hundred years) doesn't make it "bad". So the fact that cribs are a newish thing doesn't automatically justify the argument that they are no good. Neither does the fact that most of the world doesn't have them. Most of the world doesn't have access to a toilet or running water ... but aren't we glad we have those, they have really improved our hygiene and prolonged our lifespan. Just because most of the world does something one way, it still doesn't mean it's better or right or more natural.
again, I disagree strongly! cribs are part of a culture that pushes babies to be independent. it is part of a culture where babies are NOT THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE, they are just little ornaments that people carry around. not you or me, I am talking in a very general tone here. they are part of THIS culture, where everyone coos and awws over babyshowers, baby gifts, little bottles, expensive cribs, but then they have the baby and can't wait to sleep train to get their life back. this is the culture that invented cribs. yeah, it sounds so natural and nature-oriented.

Quote:

Data: "incident data from January 1990 to December 1997 linked adult beds to at least 515 baby deaths, 121 were co-sleeping deaths, that is, rolling on top of or against baby while sleeping; more than three-quarters involved babies younger than three months of age. The other 394 deaths were due to suffocation or entrapment between a mattress and a wall, bed frame, headboard, footboard, bed railings or adjacent furniture."

It's possible! (even if unlikely or safer than crib sleeping)
this is unsafe cosleeping. there have been NO STUDIES done to date comparing non-safe cosleeping and safe cosleeping. these 2 are VERY different. do you know if they parents you quoted above, were under the influence of medications, alcohol, tobacco? do you know if they were over-weight? do you know if it was the parent that was cosleeping? I am thinking you don't. they probably were, and that is why it was unsafe.

Quote:

*piglet68*: We ARE social animals and, therefore, as our social environment changes, we adapt to it. Once upon a time, children were raised by communities. In some places, they still are. Babies are breastfed by many women, not just their mothers and are handed over from woman to woman so that it can be held at all times while the biological mother takes a break (for whatever reason). Nowadays, we don't all have that luxury (most of us don't). If I had people around taking over some of the breastfeeding or holding or cuddling or changing or even cooking my meals or cleaning my house, then I would imagine that a restful night's sleep wouldnt' be such a big deal and I could just sleep with my baby. But, our current social world dictates that I do EVERYTHING ... and in order to do everything without dying... I need a little sleep here and there and I get that best with baby in her crib.
WE adapt to it. not a newborn baby. inside the uterus, it works just like it did millions of years ago. babies expect to come out into the world they were supposed to come into. but instead, they are born into a shoking circumcising, painful, cribsleeping society. babies get used to it, unfortunately, but they are born just like babies were born millions of years ago, expecting to be held, not left to cry, breasfed, carried around all day, etc.. I found the book "happiest baby on the block" was very informative about this point. how babies are kind of like "cave babies" when they come out.

Quote:

I think it's funny (and sad) that there is even argument among cosleepers about what "cosleeping" means. Is it baby in bed? Baby attached to bed on a sleeper? Baby in the same room? Exactly how many feet away or close by does the baby have to be for it to be cosleeping? Does the baby have to be "touching" mommy or just in the same bed? I'm being sarcastic but also asking for real. Who exactly took the ruler and figured out what distance is optimal for baby?
to me, honestly, it's not about thinking I'm better than anyone that puts their baby in a crib. I just think cosleeping, is THAT. cosleeping. sleeping together. I don't say it in a sarcastic tone or anything. I don't think you are less of a mother if you don't cosleep. I just think the term is so basic and you want to start adding extras to the word. why? it;s such a simple word. it has a simple definition. sleeping in bed with parents is cosleeping. sleeping on the bedside in a bassinette is sleeping on the bedside in a bassinette. sleeping in a crib in the other room is sleeping in a crib in the other room. I don't see why everything now has to be named cosleeping. does this make you feel better? because if it does.. then maybe you feel cosleeping is the way to go and you don't feel comfortable with your decision...??


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

oh.. and i also wanted to add.. if money were the obstacle that keeps most of the world from cosleeping.. then you know what? I have money so I can afford formula! see? it's the same thing. I can afford formula but I find it inferior so I CHOOSE to do what to me, is the natural and best thing to do. breastfeed. I can afford a crib. do I have one? NO. I choose to sleep with my child. I choose to cosleep.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*

sleeping in bed with parents is cosleeping. sleeping on the bedside in a bassinette is sleeping on the bedside in a bassinette. sleeping in a crib in the other room is sleeping in a crib in the other room. I don't see why everything now has to be named cosleeping. does this make you feel better? because if it does.. then maybe you feel cosleeping is the way to go and you don't feel comfortable with your decision...??









That's just YOUR opinion. You are no smarter, no more the authority, educated or fit to judge than TONS of moms here. I like that reasoning...

Sleeping in bed with parents is just that. Sleeping in bed with parents. Sleeping with your baby is cosleeping. If I have a twin bed or a crib butted against my bed am I not cosleeping? If that's the case what's the diff between that and a bassinette or cosleeper?

Does this make YOU feel better? To attempt to convince us all that you know better than we all do what is and isn't cosleeping ENOUGH.

The thing not sinking in is that I *DO* feel that cosleeping is best under optimal circumstances. Most for that matter.
THAT'S WHY I COSLEEP WITH MY DAUGHTER. Family bed, badsharing, sharing sleep ect... there... have your special terms.

Everyone not up to the standards of cosleeping set here by all means forget what's best for your family and put them in bed with you.


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## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

I think the tone of this thread, which began as asking for opinions, is going a bit far. As someone pointed out, what we are sharing here is really no one's business, so perhaps this undertone of criticism is inappropriate.

I do want to say that in some LLL lecture of years past, Peggy OMara makes the point that while we have evolved very rapidly, in some ways we have not; she put forth that when "baby's born, baby expects a tiger!" That this is why human babies need to be held/carried/slept with. But we are individuals from birth, too. Some babies hate the sling but like a backpack; some only like a snugli facing out. Should they be forced or trained to do otherwise because Dr Sears and Jean Liedloff say so? Incidentally, Dr Sears, AP advocate extraordinaire, says wherever everyone sleeps best is where everyone ought to sleep. But that's a problem with labels. They can get dogmatic really fast, so rather than evaluating the maternal infant attachment itself, every activity has to be measured against some AP scale. I saw this at a Waldorf school. Rather than look at the whole picture, some parents would examine every activity, every toy or storybook to see if it were really "Waldorf," and in so doing miss the whole point.

If I put my baby in the "cosleeper" I still consider it sleeping with me. But if some evening he sleeps all night in the moses basket on the floor, because that's where he fell asleep, I won't consider it an end to cosleeping. This is what I mean about labels. It's the same with "natural childbirth." It means different things to different people, and my idea of its definition isn't necessarily *the* definition. We don't even use the term cosleeping, really. I think of him as "in with us." Where he actually is in the room is immaterial.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Did anyone else have a baby who would scream and cry until they were laid down in their crib or is it just me???
Seth slept with us for the first three months, then in his crib until eight months, then with us until 2 1/2 and has been in his own bed since then. He is now nine.
Madi absolutely refused to sleep anywhere but her crib. She was a NICU baby for a month, so when she came home I was so happy that I could "make up" for that month she wasn't home. I would hold her and she would scream. I would walk, she would scream. If I rocked her she screamed. Didn't matter what I did. I would finally lay her down after ten minutes or so of trying and her screaming. She would go straight to sleep. I figured it was b/c of all the screaming. About a month of this and it dawned on me. She didn't want to be messed with when she was tired. I layed her down and she went right to sleep. Go figure. Seven years later and she is still like this.
Zachary slept with us for the first four years or so. Now at six he falls asleep in his bed and will come into our bed sometime in the middle of the night.
Nicholas is just like his sister. Hates to be messed with when he is tired. Even as a baby he wanted to be in his bed. I always thought is was b/c of the NICU that Madi wanted to be on her own. I guess maybe it wasn't.
My kids all decided from early on whether they wanted to sleep with us or not.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*
That's just YOUR opinion. You are no smarter, no more the authority, educated or fit to judge than TONS of moms here. I like that reasoning...

Sleeping in bed with parents is just that. Sleeping in bed with parents. Sleeping with your baby is cosleeping. If I have a twin bed or a crib butted against my bed am I not cosleeping? If that's the case what's the diff between that and a bassinette or cosleeper?

Does this make YOU feel better? To attempt to convince us all that you know better than we all do what is and isn't cosleeping ENOUGH.

The thing not sinking in is that I *DO* feel that cosleeping is best under optimal circumstances. Most for that matter.
THAT'S WHY I COSLEEP WITH MY DAUGHTER. Family bed, badsharing, sharing sleep ect... there... have your special terms.

Everyone not up to the standards of cosleeping set here by all means forget what's best for your family and put them in bed with you.

i have thought about this and a cosleeper or sidecarred crib i consider cosleeping because it's an extension of the family bed. i don't know about you but from where i come from, you either sleep with baby (next to, under) baby or you don't. that does not make me better, i dont know why a definition is so important to you. fine.. you want to declare that sleeping in another room is cosleeping? go ahead. it wont chage my opinion or alter me or my thoughts in any way..


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## Tuesday (Mar 3, 2003)

I don't think I have the intellectual strength to debate in this point.







I can understand why some people decide co-sleeping doesn't work for them. I love co-sleeping with my son and although I didn't plan to do it. As I've said before - I had no idea co-sleeping was a viable option. I just hadn't heard of it being done and no books I read recommended the practice. (I've of course now read Our Babies: Ourselves, etc. and am wiser.)

Last night, I realized how co-sleeping, even at 15 months (DS's age), is important. My little guy sat up, virtually still asleep, vomited the contents of his stomach and then literally fell over, on his stomach and lay, asleep in his vomit. I picked up the poor baby, cleaned him, held him, pulled out the dirty bed sheet and lay him down. He didn't wake up at all - poor guy - - turns out he has the flu (he's been sick all day). I was thinking I was so glad he was next to me and I could tend to him. What do people do when they can't see their child and they throw up in their crib? I'm not criticizing their decision because I know hardly anyone who doesn't put their child in a crib. I'm just saying, besides the absolute beauty of having my baby boy next to me, I am glad I was able to pull him up out of his vomit! (Sorry, if that is too much info!)


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tuesday*
I don't think I have the intellectual strength to debate in this point.







I can understand why some people decide co-sleeping doesn't work for them. I love co-sleeping with my son and although I didn't plan to do it. As I've said before - I had no idea co-sleeping was a viable option. I just hadn't heard of it being done and no books I read recommended the practice. (I've of course now read Our Babies: Ourselves, etc. and am wiser.)

Last night, I realized how co-sleeping, even at 15 months (DS's age), is important. My little guy sat up, virtually still asleep, vomited the contents of his stomach and then literally fell over, on his stomach and lay, asleep in his vomit. I picked up the poor baby, cleaned him, held him, pulled out the dirty bed sheet and lay him down. He didn't wake up at all - poor guy - - turns out he has the flu (he's been sick all day). I was thinking I was so glad he was next to me and I could tend to him. What do people do when they can't see their child and they throw up in their crib? I'm not criticizing their decision because I know hardly anyone who doesn't put their child in a crib. I'm just saying, besides the absolute beauty of having my baby boy next to me, I am glad I was able to pull him up out of his vomit! (Sorry, if that is too much info!)

wow. I'm sorry your little one has the flu. I'm glad you were there! that must have been scary for him!


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## Alvenchrst (Feb 3, 2003)

WOW! What a stimulating thread! I simply had a thought when I was reading all this. We really wanted to co-sleep with ds and tried, but like many others I had a terrible time sleeping with him and the noises, touching, movements, etc. I finally decided that him having a sane mommy was more important.

Now here comes the unique thougt. I was thinking that if co-sleeping were such a natural thing for people all over the world and so many mothers here, why is there a fairly substantal group of mommies that just can't sleep with there babies next to them? I think it is becuase of the way we have been raised. I didn't co-sleep with my parents as an infant and only on occasion as a child. But I was in my own room in my own bed for 19 years unil I got married. It go from all those years of individual sleep to sleeping even with my husband was near impossible. Even still we both have a hard time. But to add a baby to that was crazy for us. I think many mom's who were raised that way were able to adapt, but there are those of us who can't. And I believe it's becuase we had our own beds for so many years. That's something we cannot change. I desperately wish I could adapt, but I can't.

Now that doesn't mean I couldn't still co-sleep inspite of my difficulty sleeping like some mamas mentioned on this thread. I applad you! So yes, there is still a choice involved, but for those mamas to whom cosleeping comes easy, you must realize that there are those of us who really struggle with it inspite of our desire to. We are in some ways permante by-products of the western culter we were raised in.

I am personally not ashamed of my choice to put ds in his crib where we ALL sleep better. And yes I do wish I could adapt to the co-sleeping arrangment, and I still have a choice, but that's what I have chosen.

Side note to SNOWBABY. You should look into a crib tent by tots in mind. It may actually allow you to co sleep and even if you don't choose to, it will still keep your little one safe in the other room.

www.totsinmind.com

my 2c for what it's worth.


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## Snowbaby (Nov 23, 2003)

*loving-my-babies*: "this sounds so much like the "I was formula fed and I'm ok" argument. are you? really? can you tell me for certain?"

Okay, this time I'm not the one that got nasty







As I said previously - I fully acknowledge my own neuroticism. But to answer the question that you posed instead of answering my question, nope i'm not okay - I'm a healthy neurotic, just like most of us! And, FYI, I was breastfed and I coslept with my parents and siblings because I was born in a different country and all five us (parents and 3 kids) shared one room because we were that poor (so, unlike you, my experience was direct and not based on conclusions I made while traveling). My mom tells me that my two siblings loved sleeping with her but that from day 1, I was the kind of baby who prefered my own space. She said she ended up having to set up a little cot at the other side of the room because I refused to sleep in the bed with them. Apparently, even during awake times, I'd hide under things or go out back so that I could play alone (I actually remember this stuff from when I was older). Even when we came to the US, my brother and I shared a room that was divided by a curtain from my parents' room. So, by the time I got to college and FINALLY had my own room to sleep in, I developed severe insomnia because, although I had craved a room of my own, I had never learned to sleep without someone else in the room. I wish I'd had that opportunity.

Anyway, just sharing a bit of personal history. We have been speaking in generalizations, but maybe if we understood each other's specific histories then we could see how individual we are (and were from the moments we were born) and maybe we could then have more respect for each other's choices because those choices would make sense.

Peace.

Edited to add: *Ashley*, we put a screen door on the baby's room so the cats can't get in. I looked into the crib tent and it's a neat invention, but the screen door worked best for us.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:

Okay, this time I'm not the one that got nasty







As I said previously - I fully acknowledge my own neuroticism. But to answer the question that you posed instead of answering my question, nope i'm not okay - I'm a healthy neurotic, just like most of us! And, FYI, I was breastfed and I coslept with my parents and siblings because I was born in a different country and all five us (parents and 3 kids) shared one room because we were that poor (so, unlike you, my experience was direct and not based on conclusions I made while traveling).
oh, I think I forgot to add, I was breastfed and we coslept too, we're also from another country! (where breastfeeding rates are 99% and mostly everyone cosleeps except no one calls it that) so, it was not just observing from outside, I have also been lucky enough to travel around, BUT my first experience with cosleeping and breastfeeding I learned from my mom and dad that loved me and let me join their family bed


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alvenchrst*

Now here comes the unique thougt. I was thinking that if co-sleeping were such a natural thing for people all over the world and so many mothers here, why is there a fairly substantal group of mommies that just can't sleep with there babies next to them? I think it is becuase of the way we have been raised. I didn't co-sleep with my parents as an infant and only on occasion as a child. But I was in my own room in my own bed for 19 years unil I got married. It go from all those years of individual sleep to sleeping even with my husband was near impossible. Even still we both have a hard time. But to add a baby to that was crazy for us. I think many mom's who were raised that way were able to adapt, but there are those of us who can't. And I believe it's becuase we had our own beds for so many years. That's something we cannot change. I desperately wish I could adapt, but I can't.

I have to agree. unfortunately, this society, or better said, this country, has been making mothers believe that cribs are better and formula is better for a really long time. only now people are able to come out of that and see that the books were wrong. this is the only country where there are the MOST families that "cannot cosleep. coincidentally, in this country, there are the MOST women that have too many difficulties breastfeeding and cannot overcome those difficulties. in other countries, people have no pumps, no breastfeeding books, no LC's to call, nothing. and yet, they are incredibly succesful at breastfeeding. This is why I am not being understood. I am looking at this from a global point of view. this is why I don't understand the "cosleeping didn't "work" for us" argument. because I believe if it were like this all over the world, at least 50% would not breastfeed and no one would cosleep. so, looking at it, like I said, globally, I think because these generations never coslept, and even if they did, were raised in a very "american, modern" way... this could affect what these mothers do today. I have always slept with someone. I think this is why it's so easy for me to cosleep. first, my parents, then, my siblings, then my husband.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

A few comments I would like to make....

When I first got together with the kids' dad, and we slept together, I slept like crap. I really just wanted my bed back by myself. He snored, loudly, he took up all the bed, I had to shove him and try to reason with him while he barely could understand what I was saying. Well, after awhile, I just got used to it and we slept togther with not many problems.

Same thing with my kids. At first I was awoken constantly, I had to nurse all the time, my kids grunted, wiggled around, made it so I had a little corner of bed for myself.

I got used to it.

Would you dream of putting your SO in another room because he was too loud, moved around too much? Maybe you would, who knows, but from what most are saying here bedtime is the only time they have with their SO.

Now at the ages of 3 and 5, I'm so used to them in my bed that it is strange when they are at their dads house and not here. It's like if your SO, who you sleep with everynight is just not there tonight. You would miss having your SO in bed, even though he does snore or kicks your feet one too many times at night.

I want to add, that I'm very pleased that this discussion hasn't gone too far, and stayed in the realms of considerate debate. Gives me hope for the MDC world!


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

wemoon. I agree with you! this is what I always thought, it's not about "it didn't work for us" sometimes we have to make things work and it takes time and dedication.

just my opinion.. and I am too very glad we've been debating without being mean! :LOL


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Quote:

Would you dream of putting your SO in another room because he was too loud, moved around too much? Maybe you would, who knows, but from what most are saying here bedtime is the only time they have with their SO
LOL Jeni - actually YES! When I am pg and/or have a small baby in the room/bed with me I *do* kick DH out of the bedroom. During 'normal' times when I am not totally sleep deprived or waking in the middle of the night I can get used to him, since once I fall asleep I am ok for the night. But when I am waking frequently and need to put myself back to sleep I simply can't have him in the room, so he goes and sleeps with one of the kids.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
fine.. you want to declare that sleeping in another room is cosleeping? go ahead. it wont chage my opinion or alter me or my thoughts in any way..


No one here ever said that sleeping in a seperate room is cosleeping. I'm going to attempt to salvage this...

The point is that in the same room is at least in some form, cosleeping. Of course sleeping in a seperate room is not and I'm sure everyone would agree on that. Interestingly enough, most people I know IRL who cosleep in any form regularly don't JUST cosleep. Most start the baby (not a newborn but...) in their crib and then when they wake to nurse bring them into bed and there they stay because mom is fast asleep. This will be my plan also. With a newborn I would keep him with me until the very second I get a water and head upstairs. Then into the bassinette he'll go as long as he are happy there. Right beside my head. When he is much older i'll put him into his own room in his own crib until I got to bed or whatever. I'm not going to bed at 7 or 8. I'm also not going to take naps with my kids. I never have. I don't have time to take a nap nor would all of my children sleep at the same time.

Houdini, just wanted to say that you aren't the only one. I really think that is because of the NICU experience. My DD is the same way. I used to drag the bass around the house for her since she wouldn't let me hold her. SHe has neurological problems added to that too and doesn't like to be held when she's tired or crying. It usually gets her more upset if you even talk to her. I jsut have to lay her down and back off. If she feel sure no one is going to mess with her she'll calm herself. I do know that happens to alot of NICU babies. I'm so hoping I never have another one.


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## janerose (May 9, 2004)

Whew! Finally made it through all the posts.

To answer the original question -- no, in general, I do not think it's safer to have a newborn down the hall rather than in with you. Emi's due in 4 wks. I simply can't imagine taking this tiny baby who's literally never been seperate from my body for the past 9 months & having her so far away. Like lots of you said, I'd be a basketcase!









Snowbaby: ITA about people just tossing their pets when a baby arrives. My parents did this with the cat they had when I was born & I've always felt awful about it. We have NINE cats & 2 dogs. Of course we'll gladly get rid of them if they're a threat to Emi. DUH!







We were lucky that we'd already made our bedroom the "cat free" zone of the house. It's the only place I can have houseplants that survive.







Regarding the comment someone else made about wether your cats will or won't bother your baby, it really depends on the cat. We have several who I'm sure won't get anywhere near the baby for a long time & others who I know darn well will try to curl right up with her the first chance the get. We've had everything set up for several weeks now (crib sidecar onto bed, pack & play downstairs with topper on it to keep out the cats, etc) to let the pets have LOTS of time to get adjusted to that stuff & get trained.







for doing the screen door. It's what we'll do at some point in the future when Emi moves across the hall. Only we'll put one on our room & one on her room so that they're both cat-free zones.

As for the whole "you're only *really* co-sleeping if you..." debate, I'm sorry, but this seems really silly to me. Shouldn't we all be here to support each other instead of judging who is & isn't doing co-sleeping "right"??? I really believe it's this type of attitude that turns people off to trying co-sleeping, breastfeeding, etc. Why can't we all just be respectful of the fact that we're all trying to do what works best for OUR family? I'm sorry, but I just don't buy the idea that there's only one way of doing things. Every family is different & whatever works best for your family is the best answer for you. I really, really believe more people would accept AP ideas if more of us took this approach.

Oh, and you'll notice I said what works best for your FAMILY not just your baby.







Once again, what's wrong with a middle ground kind of solution that meets the needs of everyone involved? Sorry, but I refuse to believe that a baby being cared for by a run down, depressed, anxious mother is better off just because that mama is doing things the so called "right" way even though it's obviously not working for their family.

Just my 2 cents.









Holly


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Well, I'm sorry to see the thread get sidetracked to a debate about whether a bassinet/cosleeper attachment is the same as cosleeping. While I don't think anybody meant to be hurtful, I agree with LizD that we should be supporting each other, not creating more divisions. And really, if you want to get technical about it...McKenna never said just how far away a baby had to be from it's mother to reap the benefits of symbiotic breathing, sleep, etc...a baby in a bassinet right at mum's head level may be close enough to get that stimulation. All I can say is what I've said all along: if baby is happy there, then go for it. None of the mamas here said they'd keep a crying baby in the bassinett if baby wanted to be in the bed.

I also think this thread has served as a peice of supportive testimony to my question of "what makes a mother unable to cosleep". We've heard from three people with severe sleep issues that predated baby. Trying to lump such mothers into the catgory of those who "want baby to be independent" and thus stick them down the hall is analogous to lumping a mastectomy patient in with those who feed formula out of convenience. I think it goes without saying here that people with sleep/depression issues, or babies with special needs, are not included in the category that I think the OP was addressing: those who put baby down the hall as a matter of default.

Snowbaby, I appreciated the humour with which you are conducting yourself. I hope this comes across without sounding patronizing (it's so hard to convey tone in text!). The arguments you have raised are all "old hat" so to speak, in the sense that they are generally asked by those who have not done the research into AP. I know you have just begun your journey, and I don't expect you to be familiar with all the literatue. And I can't refute all your points without writing three pages (and LMB did a good job of it anyways). I can just tell you that you are misinformed, or should I say "underinformed" right now. Just one example is the study you cited of smothering deaths/accidental deaths in cosleeping infants. That study was not only terribly designed, not to mention sponsored by the JPMA (crib manufacturers), but it has been refuted by several of the world's leading experts on SIDS and infant sleep. If you can get your hands on a copy of Mothering's special Cosleeping issue, you will find the rebuttals there. Suffice to say that study is not worth the paper it's written on.

The anthropological data is also quite clear. Meredith Small's book "Our Babies, Our Selves" does a nice job of summarizing this. The truth is, that it's an American belief that those who don't use cribs and separate rooms are merely victims of poverty. Honestly, this is the sort of elitest garbage that makes me embarrassed to be part of the Developed World sometimes!







Mothers in many cultures around the world are positively shocked and disgusted at how readily North American women abandon their babies and ignore their cries. A global perspective really sheds light on this issue.

As does history. If you research the origin of cribs, they stem from a very Victorian-era notion of bodies being full of harmful "vapours", of discomfort with anything remotely sexual, and warped ideas of a child's place in the home. It had nothing at all to do with child safety, I assure you.

Finally, an understanding of evolutionary behaviour is necessary to appreciate the difference between being adaptive, and changes in fundamental aspects of physiology. The latter take hundreds of thousands of years to change. Babies are born into this world expecting the Stone Age. They may be able to adapt, but only so far. Again there are some wonderful books out there that go into this in much more detail.

I can tell you as a scientist myself who has carefully reviewed the literature, that the safety of cosleeping is more than anecdotal. The evidence is very clear, society is just slow to catch up with changes in attitude. I applaud your openness to being here and learning about AP, and I applaud the way in which you have conducted yourself in this thread. But do understand that AP is very science-based. While some here naturally fall into it b/c they are "on the crunchy side", others (like myself) are convinced by the evidence that is readily available. We'll be happy to direct you to that literature, but be ready to change your mind about the "jury being out".


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Holly, You are exactly right. Your going to be a super mom and are already a great example of AP and openmindedness.

Piglet, You make a great point. We've all learned alot about why different mothers choose what place is right for their baby to sleep comfortably and safely.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

oh my gosh, piglet. I know I keep repeating myself but you are truly my inspiration









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
Snowbaby, I appreciated the humour with which you are conducting yourself. I hope this comes across without sounding patronizing (it's so hard to convey tone in text!). The arguments you have raised are all "old hat" so to speak, in the sense that they are generally asked by those who have not done the research into AP. I know you have just begun your journey, and I don't expect you to be familiar with all the literatue. And I can't refute all your points without writing three pages (and LMB did a good job of it anyways). I can just tell you that you are misinformed, or should I say "underinformed" right now. Just one example is the study you cited of smothering deaths/accidental deaths in cosleeping infants. That study was not only terribly designed, not to mention sponsored by the JPMA (crib manufacturers), but it has been refuted by several of the world's leading experts on SIDS and infant sleep. If you can get your hands on a copy of Mothering's special Cosleeping issue, you will find the rebuttals there. Suffice to say that study is not worth the paper it's written on.

thank you for pointing this out. This is what I tried to say, before, hopefully with success.

Quote:

The anthropological data is also quite clear. Meredith Small's book "Our Babies, Our Selves" does a nice job of summarizing this. The truth is, that it's an American belief that those who don't use cribs and separate rooms are merely victims of poverty. Honestly, this is the sort of elitest garbage that makes me embarrassed to be part of the Developed World sometimes!







Mothers in many cultures around the world are positively shocked and disgusted at how readily North American women abandon their babies and ignore their cries. A global perspective really sheds light on this issue.
Just for a little example.. my father belongs to the "elite" where he lives (our country chile) when I was born, my parents had nannies, maids and a cook. my mother still chose to coslept. it seemed cruel and cold to leave a newborn baby in another room. babies were the center of the universe!

Quote:

Finally, an understanding of evolutionary behaviour is necessary to appreciate the difference between being adaptive, and changes in fundamental aspects of physiology. The latter take hundreds of thousands of years to change. Babies are born into this world expecting the Stone Age. They may be able to adapt, but only so far. Again there are some wonderful books out there that go into this in much more detail.
this is a very important point. babies still are conceived the old fashioned way. the sperm still implants like millions of years ago, gestation is the one thing, that man has not been able to imitate. so yes, babies expect a tiger when they are born. they also expect arms, love, breasts. and they certainly don't expect being in a dark room all alone.

Quote:

I can tell you as a scientist myself who has carefully reviewed the literature, that the safety of cosleeping is more than anecdotal. The evidence is very clear, society is just slow to catch up with changes in attitude. I applaud your openness to being here and learning about AP, and I applaud the way in which you have conducted yourself in this thread. But do understand that AP is very science-based. While some here naturally fall into it b/c they are "on the crunchy side", others (like myself) are convinced by the evidence that is readily available. We'll be happy to direct you to that literature, but be ready to change your mind about the "jury being out".








HAIL TO THE QUEEN!!!!


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## grnbn76 (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
this is the only country where there are the MOST families that "cannot cosleep. coincidentally, in this country, there are the MOST women that have too many difficulties breastfeeding and cannot overcome those difficulties. in other countries, people have no pumps, no breastfeeding books, no LC's to call, nothing. and yet, they are incredibly succesful at breastfeeding. This is why I am not being understood. .

I also wanted to point out that we are the nation with the most "sleep disorder clinics".
So for all our "expert knowledge" on where babies should sleep and how babies should fall asleep once they get there, we have a heck of a lot of people with sleep disorders.
Maybe we aren't as smart as we think we are.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grnbn76*
I also wanted to point out that we are the nation with the most "sleep disorder clinics".
So for all our "expert knowledge" on where babies should sleep and how babies should fall asleep once they get there, we have a heck of a lot of people with sleep disorders.
Maybe we aren't as smart as we think we are.

I have always tried to say this but I get criticised for criticizing the US. I am also 50% american and being very objective, and being abroad pretty much all over, I think I can safely say, the US is the country that thinks it knows it all, but the country that truly knows less. Just my thoughts on the above statement.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

In fairness to Americans (and Canadians aren't that much better







) it is tough not to have blinders on when you live in a huge country with very little variation around you. In Europe, people are surrounded in close range by different countries with long-established, distinct cultures, as well as language. I think it's a bit easier to see the "big picture" when you are exposed to it more. America is so huge, and most people never get exposed to any other culture. I agree, we can be very myopic in our views, but I don't think it's because we are inherently ignorant. Its just tougher being isolated the way we are.


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## polka123 (Nov 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
I have always tried to say this but I get criticised for criticizing the US. I am also 50% american and being very objective, and being abroad pretty much all over, I think I can safely say, the US is the country that thinks it knows it all, but the country that truly knows less. Just my thoughts on the above statement.


LMB's - DH & I TOTALLY AGREE & we're Americans.
The US has turned into a bunch of whiney know-it-all bullies.
We HATE it.

DH & I seek out other views. I'm only 2nd generation full- American.

Folks need to be open to all kinds of info.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I have a rather simple question that I never see addressed.

Many of you talk about how much the baby needs mama next to him/her at all times during sleep to be safe, happy, well-adjusted, etc.

And then you go on to talk about how you get your "alone time," "couple time" etc in after the baby has been put down for the night, alone, in your bed.

How is your bed anything but a crib without bars (and consequently, a slightly more dangerous crib--my DD rolls like crazy in her sleep these days) while mama and dada are out having margaritas on the balcony, I wonder? Who is keeping your baby from succumbing to SIDS during this time? Please explain.

My DD goes to bed at 7. I go to bed around 11 or 12. Even if we coslept (we used to but she is now in a crib) she would be alone for 4 or 5 hours between 7-12, and would only have me with her for 5-6 hours.


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## Snowbaby (Nov 23, 2003)

*The US has turned into a bunch of whiney know-it-all bullies. We HATE it. DH & I seek out other views. I'm only 2nd generation full- American. Folks need to be open to all kinds of info.*

You mean "open" as in the way people on this thread need to be open to the possibility that cosleeping is not "best" for everyone and that every family gets to decide what is best for them, and that crib-sleeping can be best for some families. Open like that, you mean?

I agree.

I don't hate the US. I think there are many good things about it and many bad things about it, just like everywhere else in the world. The current American self-hatred disturbs me. For those of you have traveled, then you will know that there is plenty about other countries/ cultures that suck! Just like plenty here sucks. And there are many places in the world where you would get killed for voicing your opinion and that women are still men's slaves, etc. etc. etc. so let's not make us out to be the worst of the worst. We're doing okay overall and, let's not forget that, twice in the last century, the Europeans were killing each other in all-out war .... so much for their cross-cultural utopia.

ohhh, but we're soooo far off topic


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

I'm not very well traveled to say the least. I'm not sure about the way all countries and culture raise their kids and I never will. What's important to remember is that we don't have to do the things that mainstream USA does. We have the right and ability to raise our kids however we see best to a great extent. We have the internet and access to more knowledge than previous generations. We get to make educated choices that will better serve our kids. Yes, it's up to us to use those resources but they are out there for most Americans. Sadly alot of them don't care enough read up. There are alot of countries and cultures that don't have those advantages. Lots of places where women don't have the right to anything, let alone educated decisions in child rearing. Yes, that's all debatable and nothing is perfect here for sure. I still wish that AP ways were mainstream here and WIC handed out LC and pumps first and didn't give people the option of formula. I can't see that happening in my lifetime but you know things have come a long way since we were babies. Hell, my mother was told NOT to breastfeed in the 70's and 80's.


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## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

Right now, I sleep best with baby in bed with me and dh in his own room. I wake a lot more fully when dh is with us; I am aware of his wakefulness too. He sleeps best like this too and I don't think it's a mutation, or something wrong with anyone if they prefer to be alone, or the result of some selfish culture (which could also be considered the culture that has raised the standard of individuality and self-will to new heights, though it might have gone astray). Even when we've shared a bed, dh and I have had separate blankets for years. I don't know how anyone could share a blanket at this point, but I don't think it's a comment on my attachment to dh or baby. We don't have any sleep disorders, either.

I don't much care where anyone else's baby sleeps. My point about dogma is you can get so locked into these labels and gradations you become unwilling to try anything, because it's "not AP," or "not natural," for instance. It seems for some to become a badge of honor or AP-correctness to be able to say, "we cosleep." Then for that person a bassinette next to the bed is not cosleeping bc it takes away from what they want people to know, etc etc. It doesn't make sense to me to argue about these things. The facts should be known, and an informed decision made by each family and _truly respected_ by everyone else. Not lip service respect while thinking "oh, that's dreadful," underneath, which we all need to learn to stop doing.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
I have a rather simple question that I never see addressed.

Many of you talk about how much the baby needs mama next to him/her at all times during sleep to be safe, happy, well-adjusted, etc.

And then you go on to talk about how you get your "alone time," "couple time" etc in after the baby has been put down for the night, alone, in your bed.

How is your bed anything but a crib without bars (and consequently, a slightly more dangerous crib--my DD rolls like crazy in her sleep these days) while mama and dada are out having margaritas on the balcony, I wonder? Who is keeping your baby from succumbing to SIDS during this time? Please explain.

My DD goes to bed at 7. I go to bed around 11 or 12. Even if we coslept (we used to but she is now in a crib) she would be alone for 4 or 5 hours between 7-12, and would only have me with her for 5-6 hours.

ok, well I think I was not clear enough when I posted about leaving ds in our bed while we have alone time. right now, for example, ds is asleep, and in our family bed. I am in the computer, right next to him (our computer is in our room)
Dh is making dinner, so after I am done here, I will take my ds with me to the leaving room. if dh and I want to be alone, meaning, not holding ds in my arms like I do about 20 hours out of 24, we will put him on a special little mattress we have that we put on the floor. it's very small and comfy. we could use a crib, I suppose, but I'm not comfortable with that. so yes, we may be on the balcony, and ds is right next to me on his handmade wool matress.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

oh and loraxc, ds goes to bed around 10, and we go to bed around 11. so that's one hour of sleep not physically in my arms. I feel comfortable with that because he is right next to me at all times. we have a baby monitor and have never used it because of this.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*
I'm not very well traveled to say the least. I'm not sure about the way all countries and culture raise their kids and I never will. What's important to remember is that we don't have to do the things that mainstream USA does. We have the right and ability to raise our kids however we see best to a great extent. We have the internet and access to more knowledge than previous generations. We get to make educated choices that will better serve our kids. Yes, it's up to us to use those resources but they are out there for most Americans. Sadly alot of them don't care enough read up. There are alot of countries and cultures that don't have those advantages. Lots of places where women don't have the right to anything, let alone educated decisions in child rearing. Yes, that's all debatable and nothing is perfect here for sure. I still wish that AP ways were mainstream here and WIC handed out LC and pumps first and didn't give people the option of formula. I can't see that happening in my lifetime but you know things have come a long way since we were babies. Hell, my mother was told NOT to breastfeed in the 70's and 80's.

yes, it was much worse, but that doesn't make it ok. it was culturally shocking, to say the least, when I moved here (right now I live in PA) and it's not just about information. when you know things first-hand, it comes so natural to you that it's harder to find it hard (I don't know if I'm explaining myself ok) anyway, when it's something you were born and raised with, it's much easier to do it as a mother. I wish things changed here and I am sure for your children, cosleeping and breastfeeding will be something you just do. because you are raising them to feel comfortable with that. you can read a lot but that won't give you 100% what first hand experience does. so yes, we have come a long way, in this country, what bothers me the most, is that everyone is raised here to believe "we are the best" "we have the AAP and the best research in the world" "we are so powerful" and yet, until you actually go out into the world you look back and say "no, you know what, these people know nothing of how things should be, everything is artificial and mass-produced, there is no trust in nature, men trying to break into people's bodies and recreate them almost like reprogramming them" it's sad. so, if people didn't claim to know it all, I would have no problem. it's a whole separate subject and I will be happy to discuss it further in another thread if you wish.


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## Snowbaby (Nov 23, 2003)

Wow, we really got sidetracked!! I'm gonna bring us back to the topic at hand.

[Edited to add], *piglet68*: sweeping each of the points in my previous thread under the category of "misinformed" rather than addressing them seems like a bit of an easy way out to me (no offense







) ... I'd be more than happy to read those "three pages" if you can/ want to write them and pm them.

You are right that I have just begun my journey into AP and I'm finding many, many valuable things in some of the philosophies and approaches that are promoted by this parenting style. I am proud to say that I just ordered my first "for dummys" cloth diapering package (thanks to bluedragonflymama, on another thread who guided me through the process!) and am eagerly awaiting to see if it works for us. I'm also waiting for a copy of Our Babies, Ourselves to become available at our local library. So I, by no means can claim to be an AP expert or know all of the AP research. However, I think I know a little bit about something (unless my ph.d. in psychology and child development is a sham!! ok, ok so i'm still finishing my dissertation and can't claim to have officially finished the degree







)

Regarding the study of infant deaths while cosleeping, you are right that it was a poor study. I know that current research is showing cosleeping to be fairly safe (which is contrary to what has been advocated for years) as long as certain measures are taken (no smoking or drinking by parents, adequate bed and linen, etc.). I quoted the study only as a response to someone's statement that it is NOT possible for them to smother their child in their bed...no matter how faulty the study, the data does show that it IS possible for injury to come to a child in its parents' bed. I was not meaning to suggest that cosleeping is unsafe for everyone.

Regarding the "elitist assumption" that those who don't use cribs are poor. You are right that there are certainly socioeconomic factors and attitudes affecting this cosleeping issue. In many cultures, in fact, using a crib is seen as a status symbol and many don't get them because they can't afford them. This is not elitism, it is reality. However, I fully acknowledge that in just as many other cultures, cosleeping is the norm and has nothing to do with being able to afford a crib or not. It also appears that in a minority of circles (especially in the U.S.) cosleeping is used by some as some sort of symbol of their "trendiness."

Quote:

Mothers in many cultures around the world are positively shocked and disgusted at how readily North American women abandon their babies and ignore their cries. A global perspective really sheds light on this issue.
If you read this article http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...58/ai_63692736 you will find that a global perspective shows us that all over the world, mothers respond to their infants differently based on the sociocultural, ecological and economic needs of the family and the mandates of the society. Ultimately, our jobs as parents are to prepare our children to function optimally within the environment in which they will be adults. Therefore, we cannot claim to know what is "best" for an infant/child unless we take into account his/her ecological, sociocultural world. This constant criticism of American mothers pushing for independence gets old if we consider that, independence is one of the factors that helps adults success in THIS environment. And if we're going to bash american mothers for "ignoring" their infants' cries, let's talk about Ngandu parents! I also have to respectfully disagree that American mothers "ignore" their infants cries, by the way ... I believe most mothers in this country are quite attentive. Yes, there was a time when mothers were given advice to let their babies cry for lung development or so they are not spoiled (each culture has stupid ideas about what is good for a baby) but I can bet you most women secretly rushed to their babies anyway even if they told their pediatricians otherwise (just like nowadays many, if not most, put their infants in their beds for some period of time but don't admit it and certainly don't claim to "cosleep").

Regarding the science in the AP literature that suggests cosleeping is best, natural, right, etc and that crib sleeping is damaging somehow and reflective of bad or ignorant/ naive parenting, so far what I've got from this thread is this:

1) cosleeping (contrary to popular belief and some faulty studies) IS safe.

I believe you! I truly believe that the safety of cosleeping is not just anecdotal but that, in fact, in most homes it is quite safe. However, I believe that not all homes and parents' beds are safe and since the "AP inspectors" haven't been put in place yet to determine each home's cosleeping safety level, we'll just have to trust those parents who say "I don't think it's safe to have my kid in my bed because of x, y, z and, therefore, we don't cosleep" and not question their decision. Because I don't believe crib sleeping is bad, I also think parents who put their kids in there WITHOUT any reason are also to be respected. No one needs to justify it in the end (even if many of us on this thread have!).

2) cosleeping is best, natural, right, instinctual, etc. *because* it's what most societies around the world (or the majority of people in X country) do and have done throughout history.

Most societies around the world believe women to be inferior to men and have shaped many of their behaviors based on that premise. So, as you can see, just because its common or just because the majority does it or believes it, it doesn't make it the right thing or the natural thing or the best thing! There ARE benefits to cosleeping, of course, but my argument is just to say that so are there benefits to crib-sleeping (or that, in the LEAST, it is NOT damaging to a child and, therefore, shouldn't be so maligned by AP'ers).

As I asked before .... where is the science showing that adults who coslept as children are doing that much better than adults who slept in cribs as children. No one has answered that question.

*loving-my-babies* suggested that the evidence is in the incidence of sleep disorders in America. Okay, so what would you say if I told you that there is very high rate of cosleeping and breastfeeding in Mozambique but that there is also a very high rate of infant mortality. Should we conclude then that cosleeping and breastfeeding are contributing to infant mortality? No, of course not! Two things being present in high numbers within a culture does not mean that they are connected/ associated. That is faulty science! Much of Americans' sleep problems have been associated with our work ethic and capitalistic drive that has led us to create increasingly long work schedules that require we sleep less and less. Of course, that is just one theory and other factors have been looked at. And you may be right that crib sleeping and later sleep disorders are linked ... but, again, where's the evidence?


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Snowbaby, I'm starting to really like you!









You are an academic, and a mama after my own heart!









Okay, when I get a chance, I'll write that 3-page reply.

However, I wanted to say ITA with you when you wrote this:

Quote:

mothers respond to their infants differently based on the sociocultural, ecological and economic needs of the family and the mandates of the society.
I'm afraid I haven't read the link you gave (I'm off to a meeting in 1 minute) but this quote reminded me of my latest much-enjoyed book: Mother Nature by Sarah Blaffer Hrdy. She discusses this at some length. I bet you would love the book! It's way cool!

Also wanted to reply to lorax (very good question btw!). I was being shorthanded. My DD is 2 years old, and I have felt comfortable having her sleeping without me there for a brief time before I go to bed since she was about 13 months old. I would never leave an infant alone, for the reasons you describe. It would be no different than a crib (to me). Luckily, my DD was a "late to bed" baby so we usually went to bed together. But when she napped or slept early (or I just wasn't ready for bed), I was right by her side. She either slept on the sofa next to me, or I surfed the computer next to her in bed, etc...hope that answers the question!


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