# Anyone else fear CPS?



## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

My son is accident prone...to keep him from doing something incredibly dangerous/reckless/daredevil I'd have to nail his feet to the floor and wrap him in bubble tape.

And he inherited my uncanny ability to bruise at the slightest thing.

I fear taking him in for WBV (which we very rarely do)...WIC appts and anything else because he is constantly covered in bruises and scrapes.

Not only that but I've had him in the ER FIVE times for injuries. All within the last 2.5 years.

1) He got ahold of the food processor blade (thank you DH for not putting it up where it belonged) and sliced off half his thumb nail. After 15 minutes of constant pressure DH and I weren't able to get the bleeding stopped so we went to the ER where they eventually had to use a rubber band and 8 sticks of silver nitrate (I refused a tetanus shot)

2) He fell and split his lip open and got 6 stitches (I refused a tetanus shot)

3) He fell off a chair and after 15 minutes he was having a hard time bearing weight and his ankle swelled...X-rays confirmed just a minor sprain

4) Was a year ago Thursday he was playing at the county fair and cut his foot on a barn door and received 7 stitches. (Again I refused a tetanus shot)

5) And the latest was yesterday he ran through the living room and tripped over a piece of lint (or his shadow or something...) and soared through the air to face plant into the coffee table...

Another trip to the ER after SEVERE bruising and horrid swelling...I was sure he broke his face...

Another round of X-rays showed just a nasty bruise.

Now I'm *assuming* if they suspected abuse they wouldn't have let us leave right?

But after 3 cut/wounds and 3 tetanus shot refusals I'm a bit scared. I'm sure I'm on the radar somewhere...if it matters we're in a VERY small town so all but one of these trips have been to the same local ER...









Is my fear completely unfounded??

Please tell me CPS workers and drs realize my son is just a dare devil little boy and accidents happen...right???


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

yikes! but yeah, some kids are just like that. Though in your shoes I might make sure I had a really friendly and understanding ped. on record.

-Angela


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

Our Ped sucks...but she's the one assigned to me by Title 19...so she's the one I have to use. Really young...no kids of her own...but she seems to get that kids are kids...last time we had him in for a 'check up' was for a physical prior to his dental surgery and she commented on his bruises but simply said "You're ALL boy aren't you?" and I said "Yeah, he's rough and tumble with the best of 'em...but by the grace of God he hasn't ended up with broken bones yet." And she just laughed...

My grandma keeps telling me that she had her kids in the ER usually more than once a month (on average, 6 kids)...the joke was that if she didn't show up for 4 or 5 weeks they called to make sure everything was okay.







Her favorite story is when over the course of a month she had ever single one in the ER once and two of them twice (K fell off something, then K accidentally drove over E's foot, then R1 slammed hand in car door, D pushed R2 out of a tree, R2 retaliated by dropping a 5 gal bucket full of gravel on D's head, A (my mom) stepped on a rusty nail and it went right through her foot, E fell and got hand through a window) all this was in a MONTH.







of course times have changed...


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

We had ds in to a pediatric orthopedic surgeon because ds is pretty pigeon-toed (he said we really didn't want to operate since the only solution was to break the femur and reset it!). He had an intern with him and the surgeon pointed out the bruises that were up and down ds' shins. What did he say? "Here's the mark of an active child."

A lot of it is WHERE the bruises are. There are certain places/types of injuries that are difficult to self inflict. Some of it is whether the parent's story makes sense and is consistent.

I wouldn't worry. I might develop a good relationship with a ped that you can trust, however. And, I'd get rid of the coffee table. My dh describes coffee tables as "accidents waiting to happen".


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## heatherdeg (Dec 30, 2003)

I fear CPS because I'm a foster parent and I see kids removed for some stuff that I agree looks questionable--but they remove first and ask questions later. Even from foster homes.

And some of the things are not really questionable as much as they're outside of mainstream thought--like nursing my 4-1/2yo and homeschooling a child in the autism spectrum (which mainstream and educators would--and do--insist is killing his need for social skill development














.

I keep wondering if my good record as a great foster parent will save me, or simply make me look all the more suspect.









Add to it that my little guy has a horrible temperament. He is just such a miserable little guy and some of the stuff that comes out of his mouth disturbs ME and DH--to the point where we worry sometimes what others might think about our home (I posted this in another thread).

I don't think it's unfounded to worry about CPS for any of this. Fortunately, your incidents are more readily explainable than my stuff.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

DD just had her 2-yr well visit, and she's a real bruiser, both in the literal and figurative sense. She keeps up with her 4-yo brother, who is "all boy". So her shins are a mess, her arms have bruises from them wrestling together, ad she has a nice bruise on the small of her back from backing into the bathtub faucet a few days ago.







Yeah, that was a fun one to explain to the ped. I'm just happy she knows us pretty well and knows that I'm a decent person with active kids!







She made a comment about a lot of bruises, and I said, "Spend a half a day watching my kids playing together and every bruise will make sense." And she laughed. Whew.


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## Melaine (May 17, 2008)

I have always been scared of CPS and DSS before I ever had kids. I was homeschooled here in SC before homeschooling was legal. We had social workers come to our door and had to go to court. Of course, we won which is part of why hs-ers in SC now have an easier time. I am SO happy that my parents were willing to do that and I wouldn't trade my experience homeschooling K-12th for anything! Still, CPS has a bad track record with homeschoolers. I always thought they were out to get us. I realize that there is a place and time for their intervention but I think they often WAY overstep their bounds. I strongly suggest anyone who homeschools to join Homeschool Legal Defense, they can step in if there is ever a question. I think the very fact that we are having this conversation shows that we are responsible and loving parents...so there!


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

I have, but normally, no. My son was alot like that, he still is and he bruises very easily, just like I do. The only time I was really worried was when he was 3ish and started to fall and reached out grabbed the fireplace to stop himself. He wasn't burned badly, but the ped (who I dislike anyways) interrogated me on it.

My boys are very active little boys and usually one or the other has a least 3-4 bruises at any given time. But that was the only time I've been questioned about it.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I've had these fears, too -- especially as both my girls had fractures as babies, my oldest broke one arm when she was one, and the other when she was two, and then my youngest fractured her elbow at 17 months.

People were shocked that we didn't have CPS beating down our door -- we were never even treated suspiciously. When my oldest had her second fracture, a friend of mine told me a horror story about her cousin being hassled because her 2yo was jumping on the bed, and jumped off and somehow landed in such a way that his leg broke in a _spiral fracture_.

Apparently spiral fractures are seen as a red flag for child abuse, so I feel blessed that none of my girls' fractures were ever spirals, and the injuries were always totally consistent with my accounts of the accidents, so we were always treated just fine.

About using the same ER, that's actually the best thing to do, as one of the "red flags" CPS looks for is parents going to different emergency rooms, so no one hospital realizes how often a child is getting injured. With our oldest dd's fracture, we'd actually gone to the hospital where she was born for emergency care, but were then referred to our local children's hospital for follow-up, and so with her second fracture, as well as our younger daughter's one fracture, we automatically went to the children's hospital.

We also automatically used the children's hospital when our youngest cut herself and needed stitches, and also when our oldest (our little climber) recently jumped from our deck-railing (where she likes to balance like a tightrope-walker) onto our deck, and landed in a squatting position, and got a splinter from the deck embedded straight into her finger, so that only one end-point was visible. On both these occasions we declined tetatus vaccine, and there was no pressure.

From what I've heard, other hospitals in our area now have instructions to refer all child-injury cases to this same children's hospital. I'd heard from someone previously, that there was an automatic policy for this hospital to call CPS anytime a child came to the ER for injuries *more than once* in one year. So we were a little scared when our youngest cut herself, because it hadn't been quite a year since her fractured elbow.

I actually laid low for a couple of days after that accident. We played indoors with the shades drawn: My plan was not to answer the door to anyone -- I'd heard that CPS workers will leave a note on the door, and figured I'd just get that note and call the number later, and agree to meet with them (with my lawyer) in a neutral location to answer any questions they wanted to ask me, rather than opening up my (perpetually messy) home to an investigation.

Anyhow, we never got a call or a visit for *any* of our daughters' injuries. I'm guessing that we may have got called in after our second daughter had two injuries in one year, but if so then the workers chose not to investigate it.


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## JennTheMomma (Jun 19, 2008)

I think fears of CPS are common. My mom does childcare and my mom in law is a psychologist, so they are both mandated reporters.


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

Thanks mama's...at least I'm not the only one!!

I'm doing a speed clean of my house, making sure his bedroom looks 'sleepable' (usually his bed is piled up with toys...with his pillow and blanket and all that jazz. Making sure the cupboard is well stocked (it always is)...making sure the sink is empy of dishes, the bathroom is kept moderately sanitary, keeping up on laundry and making sure Aldria's bed also looks 'sleepable' we have a crib and a pack & play...clean laundry lives there generally.

We're also inside, but mostly because it's 95 degrees outside today...









The dr never said anything about CPS...but I don't know what the 'rules' are there since it was less than a year since our last visit (and the visit before that was also less than a year to the one prior. There was 8 months between 3 and 4 and just under a year between 4 and 5...in all honesty he SHOULD have gone to the ER a 6th time in January...he fell and cut his eyebrow on a toy, but the bleeding stopped...he has a wicked scar but no stitches, he probably would have gotten 3 possibly 4 stitches there, but we never took him in...the bleeding stopped, DH (who is an EMT) cleaned it well so we just bandaided it and called it good)


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

Here is a pic of his face when we got home from ER

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a82...m/100_4641.jpg


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Like a previous poster said, a lot of it is where the bruises are. My three oldest oldest kids legs are always covered in bruises because they run around outside all day. We still go to all our appointments because I know that a good doctor/professional will know what to look for and what isn't a cause for worry.


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## Qestia (Sep 26, 2005)

My ped specifically checked for bruises and acted happy that DS's shins are completely covered with them. She said that's how she knows they're having enough fun.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JennTheMomma* 
I think fears of CPS are common. My mom does childcare and my mom in law is a psychologist, so they are both mandated reporters.

By "mandated reporter" -- does that just mean that you call it in anytime _you_ _suspect_ a child is being abused or neglected? Or does it mean something more sinister?

About 20 years ago, I was working in a childcare center, and my co-workers and me (including our director) turned in our notices, following a workshop with a CPS-worker who said we needed to call in about every bruise or marking on a child, even if we personally were satisfied that it wasn't abuse.

We weren't willing to call in every bruise, so we were going to quit our jobs. Then the regional director re-clarified our responsibility, and said we teachers should mention every bruise or marking to the director, and it would be up to her discretion whether to call it in. But I've always wondered what "mandated reporter" really means.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
By "mandated reporter" -- does that just mean that you call it in anytime _you_ _suspect_ a child is being abused or neglected? Or does it mean something more sinister?

Mandatory reporting laws in the U.S. vary by state. However, in general, they have to do with reporting "reasonable suspicion" of abuse. That is, not reporting any bruise, scrape, or whatever (use common sense), but definitely reporting when there is reason to believe that an injury is suspicious.

Mandatory reporters are generally specifically instructed to use common sense and knowledge of our own fields (what type of bruises on kids are typical for example), but NOT investigate on our own in order to make the determination about calling. Most of us are not qualified to make an accurate determination on whether abuse is occurring, and checking into a situation can also spoil the integrity of future investigations by the professionals.

In other words, if something seems off, we are instructed to call and report and let the screeners do their job rather than deciding first whether we really believe abuse is occurring. In my experience, the screeners where I come from have been fantastic about screening out anything not worthy of further investigation. In fact, they've sadly screened out stuff that I really felt needed to be looked into further (for example, when one of my dw's students told her-- after having been her student for two full years-- that his father regularly beats him with a clothing hanger...this was most likely the tip of a very large iceberg and it was clear to dw that this child was being abused in other ways as well). The cases have to meet a particular standard before being investigated. And in the county I come from, even once an investigation has occurred, only about 1% of investigations result in the (temporary or permanent) removal of a child from his or her home.

A lot has changed in 20 years in this arena for sure.

It seems like whereas there was a swing of the pendulum for a while to over-reporting, now things are much more balanced. Most docs who are accustomed to working with children will have a good sense of what is normal. And most will "get" that some children are more prone to injuries than others (When I was a kid, my parents were [nearly?] investigated when one of my sisters broke her arm three times in a row...she has an *extremely* high pain tolerance and has always been very private about pain, so it became obvious her arm was broken only upon the third time. My parents knew she had gotten hurt previously on the same arm, but were not aware she had broken anything until the third. At that point, my parents could see the bone out of place and took her in. Of course, the ER folks were mortified because on x-ray they discovered two prior untreated breaks. What you have on your side especially is that you are taking your kid in for treatment as the injuries occur [and as someone mentioned, to the same ER]...a lot of abusers would try to hide injuries and take kids in only when it was beyond the point of BAD, and in that case to varying hospitals.)

As a foster parent, most of the cases I have seen have been pretty straight-forward and very real cases of abuse. However, occassionally there are questionable social workers who make questionable decisions, and yes, I would be lying if I said I never worried. There is EVERYTHING at stake when it comes to our children, and it is normal I think to have worries about this kind of thing.


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## lindsaye3 (May 15, 2007)

Maybe this will help you feel better? A friend of mine has 2 boys and when they were ages about 4 and 5.5 she visited the ER 3 times in 3 weeks! Son #1 was playing outside and fell and cracked open head, ER visit, stitches in forehead. Son #2 about a week later was swinging between 2 chairs, slipped, ER visit, stitches in chin. Few days after that, son #1 again, this time for stitches in chin. This was in a small town and going to a small town ER clinic - same docs, same nurses. She was sure they would call CPS and even said something jokingly about it. The nurse said nope these were typical childhood injuries and they were just unlucky they all happened at once. They pay more attention to untreated old injuries or weird things that happen (like broken ribs from falls down stairs, etc.).

Of course, I would like to add that her boys were HIGH ENERGY. And a few years later her son #2 sprayed himself with her mace - ER trip and eye wash out. And yes a few days later he did it again (that time she just called the doc and washed his eyes out at home)! Some kids are just like that!


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## wendy1221 (Feb 9, 2004)

I have 3 boys. My youngest is very accident prone, and is always covered head to toe w/ bruises (having von Willebrand Disease and VERY pale skin doesn't help!) I have had people make nasty comments at the grocery store, etc, but his ped has never said anyhting abou this bruises. I actually told him one time that someone had made a nasty comment to me about MY being the one bruising my kid, and he looked mad. He told me that bruising in the places my ds has it--forehead, chin, shins, and forearms mostly, w/ some smaller bruises in other places-- were a sign that he was allowed to be active and play and was most likely outside a lot, all GOOD things from his perspective. He said that abused kids had bruising in other places and their parents tried to hide them. It was VERY obvious to him, as a health professional, that my son was just a healthy VERY active little boy, nothing more.

I dont worry about it, never have really. I just get made when strangers make comments about his bruises insinuating we abuse him. They're stupid, imo. He's a healthy, happy, very friendly little boy.


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## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

I don't spend a lot of time worrying about it, no. But, because we are rather out of the mainstream on several issues, I do take a few precautions. We homebirth, cosleep, and ebf (ds1 is 4.5 and still nursing at night). For instance, we have a good, long-standing relationship with our family doctor. Do we need to go to well baby visits? No, but it looks good on paper (and, we just like our doc). Plus, we've participated in a Parents-as-Teachers group since ds1 was small, and have a long-standing relationship w/ the teacher who comes to our home once a month. We do this because we enjoy it, not because of fear of CPS, but it is reassuring to know that I have professionals who could vouch for me if an investigation ever came up, kwim?

I've also been a mandated reporter when I was teaching. Never did anyone say we should call about every bruise. The training was basically to call if you suspected abuse, and included some possible signs. But, a lot was left up to our judgment and common sense. And, they were clear about what was NOT abuse, such as spanking on the bottom with a hand.


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## 32bolt (Jul 17, 2008)

Yes I fear CPS because we have had the unfortunate experience of having someone in our neighborhood call and report us to them, not once but twice. It is a horrifying and humiliating experience. I dont fear them in the sense that I have done anything wrong and don't want to get caught but I fear what they can do to families. It was nothing really serious and once the social worker came and went through everything she closed the case because the information was unfounded and no wrongdoing was found. Then just as we were getting over the shock of it and moving on I get another phone call from the social worker with the bad news that someone called on us again! I started crying immediately saying that this was very unfair to us and asked if it was the same person. Of course she could not tell me that (and I do not know who did it the first time) and reminded me that they do take note if its the same person calling in each time. So she has to come out again and again it will be closed because we did absolutely nothing wrong and we know it and have nothing to hide. Yet it still is a painful thing to have your parenting skills questioned to that extreme. We just moved into this neighborhood in March and our children are 7 and 3. I fear how much this can happen to us and how much we can endure as it is such a horrific thing for us to go through. We wonder what recourse we have and what we can do to protect ourselves from this other than completely shut ourselves off from people in the neighborhood. In my heart I believe it is an overzealous person or someone who just has it out for us. But it is very disheartening when it is so uncalled for. So it is a very real fear that will always be in the back of my mind whenever my kids play outside, get hurt or anything they say that could get misconstrued by the wrong person. I myself am a mandatory reporter and I would be very careful with anything I ever reported. It would have to be so blatent and obvious and fall into the category of neglect or abuse or risk to the child. I would never report on anything I heard from a 2nd or 3rd party that I myself did not hear or witness or my child was not involved in.


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## veronicalynne (Nov 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *32bolt* 
Yes I fear CPS because we have had the unfortunate experience of having someone in our neighborhood call and report us to them, not once but twice. It is a horrifying and humiliating experience. I dont fear them in the sense that I have done anything wrong and don't want to get caught but I fear what they can do to families. It was nothing really serious and once the social worker came and went through everything she closed the case because the information was unfounded and no wrongdoing was found. Then just as we were getting over the shock of it and moving on I get another phone call from the social worker with the bad news that someone called on us again! I started crying immediately saying that this was very unfair to us and asked if it was the same person. Of course she could not tell me that (and I do not know who did it the first time) and reminded me that they do take note if its the same person calling in each time. So she has to come out again and again it will be closed because we did absolutely nothing wrong and we know it and have nothing to hide. Yet it still is a painful thing to have your parenting skills questioned to that extreme. We just moved into this neighborhood in March and our children are 7 and 3. I fear how much this can happen to us and how much we can endure as it is such a horrific thing for us to go through. We wonder what recourse we have and what we can do to protect ourselves from this other than completely shut ourselves off from people in the neighborhood. In my heart I believe it is an overzealous person or someone who just has it out for us. But it is very disheartening when it is so uncalled for. So it is a very real fear that will always be in the back of my mind whenever my kids play outside, get hurt or anything they say that could get misconstrued by the wrong person. I myself am a mandatory reporter and I would be very careful with anything I ever reported. It would have to be so blatent and obvious and fall into the category of neglect or abuse or risk to the child. I would never report on anything I heard from a 2nd or 3rd party that I myself did not hear or witness or my child was not involved in.


I had the same thing happen to me because of my husband which is why I left him.....it is terribly embarrassing that is for sure. In his case, he is guilty of stupid parenting. The first time, I had to go to the emergency room because of hyperemesis (I am now 8 months pregnant) and while I was in the e.r....there was an incident. Dd1 tried to run into traffic and he actually grabbed her by the hair to pull her back to safety....and yelled at her....a lady saw him yelling but didnt know she ran into traffic and he made the bad decision to yell at her too so she called CPS. I gave him hell for it ( I am the primary caregiver and I had her try to run into traffic one time and I had to pull her back....needless to say it was not by the hair). The next time CPS actually told us the person was wrong to call them but they have to automatically investigate which I understand but is still embarrassing. We were at the YMCA to take the kids swimming (I was just watching outside since I cant go in the water) and he did a stupid thing I told him for 4 years not to do....he lifted (mind you it was gentle but u just dont do it) dd2 by one arm to move her from his left side to his right side not in anger but slowly so the lifeguards reported him to CPS. I should also add that they were already ticked off because they had to keep reminding him to stay in the same pool with both daughters. I talked to CPS about it (thankfully they came to me alone but are going to visit him on Monday to see him apparently) and told them some of the irresponsible things he has done:

1. Leave dd1 in supermarket toy section alone while he shops
2. Tried to leave them alone outside to play in backyard close to traffic with no supevision
3. Tried to go without car seat

The list goes on....Needless to say none of the above things happen because I put my foot down when I found out and I never left them alone with him. You should be able to leave your children safely with your husband kwim? I left because he was refusing to meet with CPS which u just dont do. All they want to suggest to him is maybe a parenting course for him. I just left because I am afraid they will try to take my children from me even though they have been called about his behavior...I am still his wife kwim?.........even though they seem to think the problem is him and it is not an abuse situation but very bad parenting skills. So yeah, I am afraid of CPS now though I know on my own there will be no problems.


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## not now (Mar 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
By "mandated reporter" -- does that just mean that you call it in anytime _you_ _suspect_ a child is being abused or neglected? Or does it mean something more sinister?

Every job I've worked as a nurse has required me to be a mandated reporter. I've signed a statement that I have been informed on what constitutes abuse/neglect and what steps I have to take to report suspected abuse. I work primarily with adults/geriatrics so I'm mostly trained on what abuse/neglect looks like in those population. If I see something that I suspect is abuse I am required to report it. Usually the ER catches things before they get to me though.

On topic: I know plenty of family docs and pediatricians that have the whole "if they aren't scraped and bruised they aren't really being a kid" mentality (obviously within reason).


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

to 32bold and veronicalynne! I hope it's all over soon!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *not now* 
Every job I've worked as a nurse has required me to be a mandated reporter. I've signed a statement that I have been informed on what constitutes abuse/neglect and what steps I have to take to report suspected abuse. I work primarily with adults/geriatrics so I'm mostly trained on what abuse/neglect looks like in those population. If I see something that I suspect is abuse I am required to report it. Usually the ER catches things before they get to me though.

On topic: I know plenty of family docs and pediatricians that have the whole "if they aren't scraped and bruised they aren't really being a kid" mentality (obviously within reason).

Yeah, I'm wondering if the CPS-worker who did the training for child-care staff, was being such a butt because she didn't perceive us as "educated" enough to know when to be suspicious and when a bruise was no big deal.

Plus it was mid-80's, and from what I've heard, this was a time-period when people were suddenly becoming aware of the prevalence of abuse, and how seemingly-"nice" people are often secretly beating and molesting their children "behind closed doors" (I sometimes hear a carry-over of that on parenting message-boards, when people talk about the stressed-out mama screaming at her kids in the grocery store parking-lot, and say, "If she acts like that out in public, who knows what she does at home "behind closed doors?!").

Anyhow, a few years' back I read an article about a young woman, who was imprisoned for several years because a boy in the daycare she'd worked in told his doctor she'd done something to his bottom, and the doctor thought she'd taken a rectal temperature -- which she said she'd never done, she was never sure what the child was getting at, but anyhow it turned into her greatest nightmare, as she got convicted of child sexual abuse and locked up.

But then a law student was looking into old cases, and got interested in hers because of how she got convicted with so little evidence (similar, I guess, to many cases from that time-period). He represented her and I think got a re-trial, where her conviction was overturned and she was released. In the meantime, the two of them had fallen in love and so they got married. I wish I could remember their names so I could see how they're doing now.

I know that when I worked in childcare, there were occasionally men who loved working with small children -- but they always had to get a female teacher to handle toileting and diaper-changes, I guess because of the greater likelihood of them getting accused of wrongdoing. But, judging from the above case, I guess female childcare workers who assist with toileting, aren't always immune from such accusations.

At one preschool where I worked at 19, one of the teachers expressed great concern that I was showing too much affection to the children, which she thought could be "misconstrued." But, apart from that one situation, at every other place where I worked it was seen as a plus that I was so affectionate.


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## veronicalynne (Nov 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 







to 32bold and veronicalynne! I hope it's all over soon!

Thanks for the support. It has been so hard and embarrassing not to mention stressful. I mean, they were called because of my husbands stupid parenting behavior but I feel judged too.


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## damona (Mar 27, 2008)

i am scared to death of CPS being called on us again. i have 4 boys, with varying degrees of special needs. the first time was at our old house. i suspect it was the school, b/c it was right after a home visit from the special ed teacher. i had been sick, 2 of the kids sick, dh was working doubles, and i had a new baby. the house was a disaster. a few days later the guy from cps showed up and said that they had a report of "child neglect and unsanitary living conditions". i was completely shocked. yeah, dishes in the sink, toys on the floor, a weeks worth of laundry not done, a couple pop cans on the end table, that kind of thing. it certainly wasn't layers of filth! the guy was a real hard a$$ too, telling me that i had a week to get it together or he was going to come back and take my kids from me. the door closed behind him and i had hysterics. literally. i nearly fainted. i called every friend and family member i had and we worked our tails off. you could have licked the floor by the time he came back. i also got signed letters from the county home visitor, the kids doctors, and the in-home therapists, that they had never seen any signs of neglect or abuse. he came back, poked around a bit, and told me i was free and clear

a few months later, here comes CPS again. same charges. different worker, just as tough as the first one. at this point, we were starting to pack and move, so, once again, it was a disaster. again, not dirty, just stuff not in place, y'know? this time, however, she said something about ds#3 not being potty trained as evidence of "neglect". he was only 3 and he's autistic fer cryin' out loud!! even my most "typical" boy was only potty trained just after he turned 4! same basic thing, "get it cleaned up, i'll be visiting you at the new place", etc. ok, all sorted out, she came back, poked around, told us all was closed and done.

at the end of last summer, i sent my then-6yo ds with his older brother to a church day camp thing. this ds is also on the autism spectrum. he says random things that don't make any sense, quotes from movies, etc. he goes to the camp and announces "my mommy and daddy tie me up in my room at night!" oh.my.god. the same social worker came back and she landed on us like a ton of bricks. interviewed the kids at school, contacted their dr's and therapists, interviewed their teachers... i really and truly thought i was going to lose my children. she finally acknowledged that we are not the horrible people she came in thinking that we were and stopped harassing us. i have never been so scared in my life.

my point to all this is that now, if one of the kids is hurt, or i lose my temper and yell, or one of my boys on the spectrum runs away from me or screams something that is not child-appropriate, i live in fear for days. none of the accusations had any real basis in fact (other than a messy house), and i am terrified that this will happen again. i really, truly am.

the other day, my youngest son broke his front tooth by jumping off of my bed. even tho i knew they wouldn't do anything at the clinic, i took him in b/c i wanted to be sure that it was documented. i hate feeling like i'm waiting for the other shoe to drop all the time. i saw the social worker here at the complex a few weeks ago, as i was leaving, and i called my dh and told him and he ran around and swept the floor and made sure the kids were all dressed and everything, just in case. i hate this feeling.

anyway, sorry for the long ramble, i hope somewhere in there was the thought that "i hope things go better for everyone else than they have for me" or something like that. good grief, it's 5am?? no wonder i'm babbling!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

damona,







It's experiences like yours that make me think social workers must have too much time on their hands, to be giving someone such a hard time about a messy house.

My 3yo still wears diapers, too. She sometimes uses the potty, and seems to be quite good at sensing when she needs to go, 'cause she'll sometimes announce what she's about to do. But for some reason, she still usually prefers going in her diapers, and I don't see a reason to turn it into a struggle. I feel confident that she'll eventually want to use the potty like other kids her age are doing.

But right now, she also wants to be called "Baby" instead of her given name -- so I think she's just more in a phase of wanting to identify herself as the baby, and she's not so much identifying with other kids her age yet. I don't see it as a problem, and when the doctor asked me about the potty-training, I just told her she goes sometimes but doesn't always want to, and still wants to wear a diaper. And the doctor was okay about it.

But I know what you mean, about always wondering how it's going to be perceived, if your child diverges from the "norm" in some way.


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## veronicalynne (Nov 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *damona* 
i am scared to death of CPS being called on us again. i have 4 boys, with varying degrees of special needs. the first time was at our old house. i suspect it was the school, b/c it was right after a home visit from the special ed teacher. i had been sick, 2 of the kids sick, dh was working doubles, and i had a new baby. the house was a disaster. a few days later the guy from cps showed up and said that they had a report of "child neglect and unsanitary living conditions". i was completely shocked. yeah, dishes in the sink, toys on the floor, a weeks worth of laundry not done, a couple pop cans on the end table, that kind of thing. it certainly wasn't layers of filth! the guy was a real hard a$$ too, telling me that i had a week to get it together or he was going to come back and take my kids from me. the door closed behind him and i had hysterics. literally. i nearly fainted. i called every friend and family member i had and we worked our tails off. you could have licked the floor by the time he came back. i also got signed letters from the county home visitor, the kids doctors, and the in-home therapists, that they had never seen any signs of neglect or abuse. he came back, poked around a bit, and told me i was free and clear

a few months later, here comes CPS again. same charges. different worker, just as tough as the first one. at this point, we were starting to pack and move, so, once again, it was a disaster. again, not dirty, just stuff not in place, y'know? this time, however, she said something about ds#3 not being potty trained as evidence of "neglect". he was only 3 and he's autistic fer cryin' out loud!! even my most "typical" boy was only potty trained just after he turned 4! same basic thing, "get it cleaned up, i'll be visiting you at the new place", etc. ok, all sorted out, she came back, poked around, told us all was closed and done.

at the end of last summer, i sent my then-6yo ds with his older brother to a church day camp thing. this ds is also on the autism spectrum. he says random things that don't make any sense, quotes from movies, etc. he goes to the camp and announces "my mommy and daddy tie me up in my room at night!" oh.my.god. the same social worker came back and she landed on us like a ton of bricks. interviewed the kids at school, contacted their dr's and therapists, interviewed their teachers... i really and truly thought i was going to lose my children. she finally acknowledged that we are not the horrible people she came in thinking that we were and stopped harassing us. i have never been so scared in my life.

my point to all this is that now, if one of the kids is hurt, or i lose my temper and yell, or one of my boys on the spectrum runs away from me or screams something that is not child-appropriate, i live in fear for days. none of the accusations had any real basis in fact (other than a messy house), and i am terrified that this will happen again. i really, truly am.

the other day, my youngest son broke his front tooth by jumping off of my bed. even tho i knew they wouldn't do anything at the clinic, i took him in b/c i wanted to be sure that it was documented. i hate feeling like i'm waiting for the other shoe to drop all the time. i saw the social worker here at the complex a few weeks ago, as i was leaving, and i called my dh and told him and he ran around and swept the floor and made sure the kids were all dressed and everything, just in case. i hate this feeling.

anyway, sorry for the long ramble, i hope somewhere in there was the thought that "i hope things go better for everyone else than they have for me" or something like that. good grief, it's 5am?? no wonder i'm babbling!









As another pp said, they must have too much time on their hands....and seem to like abusing their power. They would have been horrified at my house then....I had hyperemesis and was in and out of the hospital 6 times in 2 months and dh was overwhelmed by the kids and household duties. We had CPS come to our house because dh lifted dd2 by one arm to move her to his other side (not in anger but it is wrong to lift that way), he kept trying to go to the other pool leaving dd1 alone (he thought she was safe with just the floater arm things...again wrong as i tried to tell him), and because he didnt run to pick dd2 up fast enough for them. I am in the process of lodging a formal complaint because I feel the ymca went too far when they asked me out of the blue if I was abused







.
CPS also thought they were out of line calling but had to investigate. They saw my house....carpet not vacuumed and kitchen floor disgusting....I explained I am 8 months pregnant and they understood. One is supposed to come back on the 30 to speak to my husband.....we had agreed that he needs a parenting course. Sounds like you had really nasty extreme ones visit you....i was nervous enough and threw up after they left....I cant imagine my reaction if they had treated me like they did you







: Btw, I was impressed when I read your post...you have alot on your plate looking after special needs children. I think that is great


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## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

I'm very sorry to hear about families being harassed for trivial reasons. I'm sure I would be terrified, too.

However, I don't think in general social workers have too much time on their hands. I think it's the reverse. They are overworked and underpaid. They see horrible things in their line of work. Of course they're going to get jaded and be suspicious of everything. I can't imagine doing such a tough job, myself. That doesn't excuse them from being nasty and horrible, of course. But I think that attitude comes from stress, time-constraints, and fear that they will miss something that will result in a child dying. How many of us work in a job where the decisions we make will ultimately determine whether a child lives or dies, or whether a child is abused or emotionally traumatized from being taken from their parents? It makes my stomach hurt just thinking of the responsibility.

Of course, in any situation you can run across someone on a power trip who is just trying to throw their weight around. And when they really DO have power over you and your children, that is truly terrifying.


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## LivingforGod (Jul 3, 2008)

I would have a good family doc. To make you feel a little better, my husband and his mom were on a first name basis with the er. He even "shot" himself in the leg with a bullet and a hammer when she was at work!!! This of course was reported in the newspaper!







She had a good understanding family doc. Not a ped.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

honeybee, I see your point -- but with children dying of abuse, it's hard to understand workers getting all bent out of shape just because someone has a messy house, or a child still wears a diaper.

And with the diaper-thing, I'd be more concerned about a parent determined to have a child trained by a certain age, than I would about a totally relaxed parent who's not pushing it, and is cool with the child doing it at his own pace.

The first situation seems way more conducive to a parent getting stressed and becoming abusive -- so in a way a CPS worker who pressures parents about toilet-training may be indirectly promoting abuse.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

I don't know what really triggers CPS. However, I'm sure that ER docs see lots and lots and lots of average, everyday childhood accidents, and you do not have the *only* clumsy or daredevil child in the world. It's summer, kids are out on bikes and skateboards and even tripping over their Crocs all the time, it's just part of normal childhood.

I'm sorry though for the stress it takes out on you! We had our first ER visit a month ago and it was so scary and stressful.

I have worried about CPS when Johnny was younger and I have called Poison control multiple times for things he had gotten into. Nothing terribly serious but still -- an air freshener / glade plug in thing, a mr. clean magic eraser, toothpaste, I can't remember the others.

I think that neighbors or family calling is the worst one and frankly triggers the most problems. A friend's husband called the police on some kids who were doing something dangerous and reckless in their neighborhood, I can't remember what it was but it had the potential for property damage to the neighbors house and it was probably borderline whether he should have called the cops or gone out and handled it himself, but calling the cops was not a *bad* thing.... but..... CPS ended up coming and investigating the family(ies) after the police report, interviewed the kids and all that. Nothing came of it, but still I think any investigation like that is stressful.

I don't live in fear of CPS though. But we have stable family and reasonable neighbors and no one is out to get us. If I had bad relationships with neighbors or family I would be concerned, but what can you do to prevent it? Only so much.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
honeybee, I see your point -- but with children dying of abuse, it's hard to understand workers getting all bent out of shape just because someone has a messy house, or a child still wears a diaper.

And with the diaper-thing, I'd be more concerned about a parent determined to have a child trained by a certain age, than I would about a totally relaxed parent who's not pushing it, and is cool with the child doing it at his own pace.

The first situation seems way more conducive to a parent getting stressed and becoming abusive -- so in a way a CPS worker who pressures parents about toilet-training may be indirectly promoting abuse.

I don't know. If a CPS worker complained about my 3 year old being in diapers, I'd pull out my toilet learning books and refer them to the sections about going with the flow. I'd also pull up the Medical College of Wisconsin research that shows the average ages for potty learning and they're right at 3 years, but that's average, some kids take longer. I'd also give them our pediatrician's phone number to talk to, or I'd have my pediatrician call them to back me up.

If a CPS worker came in our house at this moment, it's a big mess. I'm doing the new baby's room and there is junk and toys in our living room. I grocery shopped this morning and some of the non-fridge items are still out, there are dishes in the sink, etc.

But, I would most definitely stand up for myself and my family and the way we live. Seriously my kids have strong immune systems built on my messy house (and playing in mud puddles). And I have a housecleaner that comes every 2 weeks. I could show them the receipts -- our house still gets messy and that's just life.

I can certainly see a social worker making comments about the mess, but threatening to remove kids for a mess is way out of proportion, unless there are other, bigger signs of abuse in play.


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

CPS has WAY too much power IMO...it seems like they go all gung ho over the silliest stuff but let cases of TRUE abuse slip through the cracks (Shelby Duis comes to mind...)

Well since his accidents tend to come every 6 months at least we're clear for a while.


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JamesMama* 
CPS has WAY too much power IMO...it seems like they go all gung ho over the silliest stuff but let cases of TRUE abuse slip through the cracks (Shelby Duis comes to mind...)

Well since his accidents tend to come every 6 months at least we're clear for a while.

This is true. I've also heard that some workers can be very critical and demeaning about non-mainstream parenting practices, especially co-sleeping, CLW, and occasionally no-vaxing. I get concerned because I'm really young and disabled due to a chronic illness, and my husband has major depression issues and isn't capable of making the kind of money I could make due to lack of education, so we are poor and living on sec. 8. My house is often messy because I simply don't have the energy to clean it all the time, although it isn't unsanitary and certainly doesn't have piles of filth covering it. Both of my girls are very active and have bruises on them from playing outside and falling off playground equipment and their bikes. Recently my youngest, who is a very intense child, was having an enormous temper tantrum and threw herself into the coffee table while thrashing around, resulting in a scratch and bruise on her throat!! I freaked out a little bit when I saw that, you know? I feel like I already have so much that CPS would frown at, even though I didn't do anything wrong.


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

I am... I took the baby to the doctor today and she has a bruise on her cheek (from running into a wall - she's 15 months). He didn't mention it, but he did strip her completely and checked EVERYWHERE. The only other bruise she had was on her knee. So, now I'm freaking out that CPS will show up on my door for having a bruised baby.


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## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
honeybee, I see your point -- but with children dying of abuse, it's hard to understand workers getting all bent out of shape just because someone has a messy house, or a child still wears a diaper.

And with the diaper-thing, I'd be more concerned about a parent determined to have a child trained by a certain age, than I would about a totally relaxed parent who's not pushing it, and is cool with the child doing it at his own pace.

The first situation seems way more conducive to a parent getting stressed and becoming abusive -- so in a way a CPS worker who pressures parents about toilet-training may be indirectly promoting abuse.

I agree, that worker was way over the top, and I totally don't get the potty training thing. My 4.5 year old is still having accidents. And my house is pretty messy. If we got an unexpected visit, I would not be letting anyone in my house without a warrant... and then I would clean, clean, clean before they came back. I think this worker was definitely abusing his power.

I was more objecting to the generalization that most sw have all this time on their hands, or that as a rule they're out to get families. It's a low-paid, high-stress job and I can see how it could break a person down so they start seeing abuse everywhere.


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## daughteroftruth (Jun 12, 2008)

As a kid that grew up in a very abusive home...I guess I have a differing veiw of CPS and the system. Most of the workers and investigators have seen some horrific stuff...I can't imagin anyone not being hardend by that. They are usually way over worked, handling up to 30 families at a time, working 12 hour shifts, and getting crapy pay...not to mention that many start to bond and really care for the kids under their care. My social worker and I bonded, and I remember the night that I ran away from my foster parents...she was up all night looking for me too....and she had a family at home to care about, and dozens of other kid she had to think about. Alot of them see the familes taht look perfect from the outside, but then find the horrific truths....my family looked very perfect from the outside. No one would have ever beleived that my step dad was extreamly abusive. I do know that people who have done no wrong get investigated...and that it really shakes the parents and the family....but I also remeber all the foster kids that my foster parents cared for...several which we picked up from the hospital after being beaten. Alot of those kids came from "normal" looking familes. Alot of times the abuse isn't obvious.

It may seem that they do alot of harm.....but I would rather them investigate an inocennt family, then turn a blind eye to possible abuse. Alot of abuse happens under the illusion of a "perfect" family. Its a broken and over worked system...but they do protect and rescue alot of kids. I would be dead without the intervention of CPS, several of my foster siblings would have died at the hands of their parents had it not been for the intervention of CPS.

Yes the system need works...on both ends. I've seen familes investigated for really dumb things....but then I also had to watch my foster parents go through the hell of handing a 12 mo old baby back to her birth mother, only for that baby to end up in the hospital and back in states custody less then 2 mo later...then to have to hand her back again 3 yrs just to havt to pick her up again from the hosptial 6 mo later.

It would be great if CPS didn't have to do their job at all...but unfortunetly that is not the world we live in.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *daughteroftruth* 
As a kid that grew up in a very abusive home...I guess I have a differing veiw of CPS and the system. Most of the workers and investigators have seen some horrific stuff...I can't imagin anyone not being hardend by that. They are usually way over worked, handling up to 30 families at a time, working 12 hour shifts, and getting crapy pay...not to mention that many start to bond and really care for the kids under their care. My social worker and I bonded, and I remember the night that I ran away from my foster parents...she was up all night looking for me too....and she had a family at home to care about, and dozens of other kid she had to think about. Alot of them see the familes taht look perfect from the outside, but then find the horrific truths....my family looked very perfect from the outside. No one would have ever beleived that my step dad was extreamly abusive. I do know that people who have done no wrong get investigated...and that it really shakes the parents and the family....but I also remeber all the foster kids that my foster parents cared for...several which we picked up from the hospital after being beaten. Alot of those kids came from "normal" looking familes. Alot of times the abuse isn't obvious.

It may seem that they do alot of harm.....but I would rather them investigate an inocennt family, then turn a blind eye to possible abuse. Alot of abuse happens under the illusion of a "perfect" family. Its a broken and over worked system...but they do protect and rescue alot of kids. I would be dead without the intervention of CPS, several of my foster siblings would have died at the hands of their parents had it not been for the intervention of CPS.

Yes the system need works...on both ends. I've seen familes investigated for really dumb things....but then I also had to watch my foster parents go through the hell of handing a 12 mo old baby back to her birth mother, only for that baby to end up in the hospital and back in states custody less then 2 mo later...then to have to hand her back again 3 yrs just to havt to pick her up again from the hosptial 6 mo later.

*It would be great if CPS didn't have to do their job at all...but unfortunetly that is not the world we live in*.


Excellent post. And so true. I used to work with CPS workers (not for them, with them - we crossed paths). Most of them were incredibly loving and patient individuals. They WANTED children to be able to stay with their families.

I don't know where people think that having some dirty dishes in the sink or not vaxing will get your kids taken away. Unless there is something else going on, these things are not a factor.


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## betterparent (Jul 23, 2006)

it stinks when its not founded, but so many times they also dont take serious complaints seriously...


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

What gets me is, if so many abusive parents are "seemingly perfect" -- why all the focus on messy houses or pressure on parents to force toilet-training before the child is interested? If kids in spotlessly clean houses are just as likely to be abused as kids in messy ones, it makes about as much sense for a worker to keep coming back to reinspect 'cause the house is too neat.

Yeah, I realize my messy house in itself wouldn't get my kids snatched away -- but I've heard enough to think it might cause a worker to say, "I'll be coming back to make sure you get this cleaned up," which can be stressful -- 'cause, you know, we do _sometimes_ get the mess cleaned up, but it's not like you can call the worker and say, "Come inspect our house _right now_ while it's clean!"

So by the time they make it back by, it might be trashed again. So then they'd leave the case open so they could keep coming back. Which would provide more opportunity for them for catch parents having a bad day.

I've also heard that CPS workers do profiling: Since abuse and neglect aren't always obvious, workers are taught to be more wary of factors like a parent being in the military, or parents having more than one child (meaning the more children you have, the more potential they see for abuse), low-income ...

I've even heard that some CPS workers are leery of homeschoolers, and think we're just keeping our kids out of school so we can treat them however we want without the outside world knowing.

I agree that no child should have to live in fear. But I also don't think that the harassments I've heard of are a necessary sacrifice that we all have to be willing to make, to protect abused children. It seems that these harassments are actually taking resources and energy away from the children and families that actually need the intervention.


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## sebandg'smama (Oct 29, 2005)

A messy house is a problem if the child can get sick (old food, fecal matter) or hurt themselves from the debris/clutter.
It can be evidence of someone suffering from depression/mental illness and thus the family is in need of some support.

I realize that a social worker coming to one's house doesn't feel supportive, just scary and intrusive, but their mandate is to keep kids safe.


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## veronicalynne (Nov 4, 2006)

At least the ones I dealt with the second time seemed pretty decent. They seemed to realize that the problem is my husband and it is more that he needs parenting courses (he kept trying to leave dd1 in the pool alone while he went to the other pool beside it and carried dd2 incorrectly. They even admitted that the person who called them should not have called but that they automatically do have to investigate. The person who called also told them they thought I was physically abused







:














:







: which CPS thought was nuts when they met me. There was absolutely no basis for that and I suspect it was prejudice and stereotyping (he is arabic and ALL arabic men MUST abuse....too bad my friends father had a Ukrainian background and was physically abusive...must be arabic somewhere there)I live in a town where there are no arabic people at all. I have a friend who does not work for CPS but crosses paths too and she broke up laughing when I told her. He does/did try to dominate me by trying to control me but I gave it back to him each time. We are thinking the way he maybe spoke to the lifeguards at the ymca bugged them (he does sound kind of loud and gruff but Iraqis ARE loud and gruff people.....it is the way they speak). I am staying with a friend right now because I am angry at this CPS thing and I want him to take the parenting courses. My beef is there was no basis to call CPS (and to lie and say I was abused? excuse me?) and waste their time when there are children who are slipping through the cracks everyday. But as a pp mentioned, the system is not perfect.


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

Yes I definitely am! DD recently had a serious staph infection-- she had 4 skin boils bad enough to leave dark circular scars and one boil abscessed and she was hospitalized. I was very nervous in the hospital. They did ask questions about the other scars but seemed to believe me that they were from boils. And of course, just the fact that she had boils made me nervous, maybe they thought I never bathe her. But the truth is I bathe her constantly, sometimes 2x a day.

I'm also flaky about sending in my homeschool paperwork...


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

I talked to CPS about it (thankfully they came to me alone but are going to visit him on Monday to see him apparently) and told them some of the irresponsible things he has done
It really seems to me that telling them more stupid things he's done would do you more harm than good though.


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## daughteroftruth (Jun 12, 2008)

While its frustrating that people get investigated for things as little as a messy house...but they look for factors that indicate neglect..not nesesarly a messy house...and usually they only make a fuss if small children are present...face it...small kids get into things. But if someone calls, then they have to investigate.

And yes they do profile. And its seem unfair...but statistics do show that abuse is more likely to happen in some situations.

Social workers get the brunt of the frustation. People focus on them because they are the faces they see..but its not the social workers that make the calls, and its not the social workers that make the rules. They go to college with the intention of helping kids, protecting those who need protecting, and end up getting over worked, underpaid, and thought of as the destroyers of families. I have a friend who is a social worker. I asked her about parents being afraid...she says that she thinks it sucks that people are afraid...but for her, it sucks that she has to look at a family and do her best to determine if there is abuse. She allwyas goes in hopeing that there isn't anything...but turns every stone...because if she misses somthing...if there is abuse and she doesnt' see it.....what if she wakes up and see a kid that she could have protected in the news...because she missed somthing. Her words were "A family can heal from an investigation, but a dead child can't."

I don't envy her job, but I'm thankful that there are people out there like her who are willing to take up a career like that. Its a thankless job. But they do save lifes, and they do repair familes, and they protect children when its needed. It sucks that they have to be the bad guy, and the system isn't perfect...it is made up of humans who are just as capable of making mistakes as you and me...I've screwed up at work...but if I over look something at work..no big deal...but for them the worst case senario of them missing soemthing is a dead child.

And rumors of them taking kids for homeshcooling, or not vax, or not potty training....are probably just that...rumors. I've met familes that had their kids taken away taht claimed it was because their house was a mess...then you find out that it was mostly because the kids were rarely bathed, had skin rashes due to nelglect, lice, tooth decay due to lack of hygeine. There is usually a deeper story then the parents are willing to admit when children are taken away.


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## GranoLLLy-girl (Mar 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lindsaye3* 
And a few years later her son #2 sprayed himself with her mace - ER trip and eye wash out. And yes a few days later he did it again (that time she just called the doc and washed his eyes out at home)!

I know the above passage is not funny at all--especially if it were to happen to your own kids--but I can't help but giggle at the thought of that child learning such a hard lesson TWICE! Good grief!


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

I take issue with the flat statements some are making that "if someone calls, they have to investigate." This is simply inaccurate. I am a foster parent and a mandatory reporter. I am very familiar with the system. In all the states I have lived in, calls are screened, and not every call leads to an investigation.

The myth that all calls=an investigation is one of the reasons people turn a blind eye when they are concerned. They worry what will happen if it is no big deal or if they are wrong. I think kids wait longer for help in legitimate abuse cases because people are afraid to call.

The fact of the matter is, many calls are screened out with no investigation ever completed. The reasons for this are many and varied. It may be that the described situation doesn't meet some standard of "what counts." For example, I have mentioned on other threads and maybe on this one about my dw calling when a kid she had taught for a couple of years finally told her his father beat him regularly with a clothing hanger. She had a very strong feeling (based on other hints the child had given) that this was the tip of the iceberg, and that an investigation would turn up much greater abuse. BUT, when she called, she was informed that hitting a child with a hanger doesn't constitute a need for an investigation, particularly as no bruising was evident to my dw (though it may have been under clothing). In that state, the defining factor in when a beating becomes abuse is when it leaves a mark on a child for more than a half hour.

In other cases, investigations are screened out for reasons such as proper support in the home. I once made a cooperative call with a mother of a young mom who was neglecting her baby (the mother's grandchild). Because the young mom was living with her own mother (the child's grandmother), the grandmother was able to "make up" for the neglect issues, protecting the child from the consequences. Thus, the screener for the call screened it out for the purposes of investigation. However, on our request, she did send this young mom a letter informing her of the concerns, giving her information on some medical issues that had been neglected, and referring her to a number of support resources in the community. In that case, even if it had been investigated, I doubt it would have constituted a removal of the child from her home. But I do think it would have led the mother to greater resources and given her the push to UTILIZE the resources she needed.

Recently, a member right here at MDC called out of concern regarding her BIL's abusive behavior with his kids. The call was screened out for investigation, by the account given to us, in part because the mother was present and seemed to provide the children with some protection.

At least in the places I have lived, MOST calls don't go anywhere. A minority percentage result in investigation, and still a greater minority result in removal of a child from the home.

Yes, there are abuses within the system. I've seen them first hand. And being on the receiving end of an unwarranted investigation I can only imagine is heartbreaking and absolutely destructive (I already posted that I do fear this). But I think it is important that we have our facts straight here, and the notion that all calls lead to investigation is simply a misnomer in many locations. Also, while there are awful anecdotal stories of abuses within the system, statistically speaking, there are so many children who are removed from truly abusive and neglectful situations while parents get it back together. And many parents do get it back together. In the places I've lived, only a minority of foster care cases ever result in any kind of termination of parental rights and longterm alternative to the child going back home.

Quote:

A messy house is a problem if the child can get sick (old food, fecal matter) or hurt themselves from the debris/clutter.
This is absolutely true, and I think where the concern comes from.

Most (not all, but most) of the social workers I have worked with over the years have had good common sense about this. I get worried even before our regular home visits when we have a foster kido with us. I always make sure to do a good cleaning of the house. But one of our social workers even said to me about himself: "The big joke around the office is how if anyone ever called CPS on me, my kids would get removed because of what a disaster my house is. Don't worry. I have kids too. I know what it is like. Just relax."

I know there are social workers who don't have a good grasp on reality. I have certainly worked with a few. I will never feel comfortable with some social workers when they are in my home. So I am not trying to downplay this.

But I think we ought to honor the many smart, common sense, decent social workers who are out there every.single.day visiting homes and making good, supportive decisions that help families.

Quote:

It can be evidence of someone suffering from depression/mental illness and thus the family is in need of some support.
Yup! Myth #2 is that investigation always=removal of a child. In many cases, this simply doesn't happen. I don't remember the exact figures, but the statistics are striking...like, maybe 1% of investigations result in removal or something??? In many cases, the investigations lead no where and the cases are closed. In some cases, support services are made available to families and removal of children is prevented through intervention.

The foster kids who have come into my care have almost 100% been cases of very straight-forward abuse or neglect, and have definitely been severe enough to warrant removal of the child from the home.

Quote:

I realize that a social worker coming to one's house doesn't feel supportive, just scary and intrusive
Absolutely. I think this is deserving of our consideration. When I got trained as a foster mom, we were told, "It isn't a matter of IF you will be investigated. Statistically, as a foster parent, there is a good chance you WILL be investigated, and it is more of question of how and why and when." I live with a high degree of fear as a result. As foster parents, we have all kinds of regulatory folks in our lives...we have angry and hurt birthparents...we have constant home visits...we have children who are processing a lot of hurt from their pasts and who sometimes are very mixed up...

If a social worker showed up unexpectedly at my door and told me I was being investigated, you can bet I would be too scared and too hurt and too angry and too sad and too shaken up to benefit at all from the experience. Seriously, just talking about it scares the living daylights out of me. But, on the other hand, I do understand that:

Quote:

their mandate is to keep kids safe.
and I even in all that fear I can recognize that:

Quote:

"A family can heal from an investigation, but a dead child can't."
That said, veronicalynne, it does sound like prejudice and bigotry where a part of the impetus for the call YMCA made to CPS in your case, and that is awful. And to all parents who have experienced unecessary investigations, my heart breaks for you and I am so sorry.


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## veronicalynne (Nov 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
It really seems to me that telling them more stupid things he's done would do you more harm than good though.


Normally I would agree but I wanted them to realize that the problem seems to be lack of proper parenting skills and possible cultural issues. He is from a culture where you let your very young children outside unsupervised because others will watch which I cannot get him to understand that you cannot do here in Canada or the States. They do know that there is an issue here but I wanted them to realize it is not neglect or whatever garbage the YMCA was saying.....and I do believe he needs to be educated a bit on child safety. I want someone to get through to him that the way children are or were raised in his country is not acceptable here. CPS already said that the call was unwarranted but they thought he does need to learn alternate parenting skills. I never realized how different child rearing can be in different countries (naive I know) especially when it comes to supervision and carseats etc. I am just afraid that CPS will be called again if we dont address this now and to be honest, I am exhausted emotionally with the stuff he has done and cant get through to him. They wondered why he kept leaving her in the pool unsupervised and trying to lift dd2 by one arm (both of which I have argued with him about). In any case, they dont think it was appropriate for CPS to have been called.


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## veronicalynne (Nov 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sierra* 
I take issue with the flat statements some are making that "if someone calls, they have to investigate." This is simply inaccurate. I am a foster parent and a mandatory reporter. I am very familiar with the system. In all the states I have lived in, calls are screened, and not every call leads to an investigation.

The myth that all calls=an investigation is one of the reasons people turn a blind eye when they are concerned. They worry what will happen if it is no big deal or if they are wrong. I think kids wait longer for help in legitimate abuse cases because people are afraid to call.

The fact of the matter is, many calls are screened out with no investigation ever completed. The reasons for this are many and varied. It may be that the described situation doesn't meet some standard of "what counts." For example, I have mentioned on other threads and maybe on this one about my dw calling when a kid she had taught for a couple of years finally told her his father beat him regularly with a clothing hanger. She had a very strong feeling (based on other hints the child had given) that this was the tip of the iceberg, and that an investigation would turn up much greater abuse. BUT, when she called, she was informed that hitting a child with a hanger doesn't constitute a need for an investigation, particularly as no bruising was evident to my dw (though it may have been under clothing). In that state, the defining factor in when a beating becomes abuse is when it leaves a mark on a child for more than a half hour.

In other cases, investigations are screened out for reasons such as proper support in the home. I once made a cooperative call with a mother of a young mom who was neglecting her baby (the mother's grandchild). Because the young mom was living with her own mother (the child's grandmother), the grandmother was able to "make up" for the neglect issues, protecting the child from the consequences. Thus, the screener for the call screened it out for the purposes of investigation. However, on our request, she did send this young mom a letter informing her of the concerns, giving her information on some medical issues that had been neglected, and referring her to a number of support resources in the community. In that case, even if it had been investigated, I doubt it would have constituted a removal of the child from her home. But I do think it would have led the mother to greater resources and given her the push to UTILIZE the resources she needed.

Recently, a member right here at MDC called out of concern regarding her BIL's abusive behavior with his kids. The call was screened out for investigation, by the account given to us, in part because the mother was present and seemed to provide the children with some protection.

At least in the places I have lived, MOST calls don't go anywhere. A minority percentage result in investigation, and still a greater minority result in removal of a child from the home.

Yes, there are abuses within the system. I've seen them first hand. And being on the receiving end of an unwarranted investigation I can only imagine is heartbreaking and absolutely destructive (I already posted that I do fear this). But I think it is important that we have our facts straight here, and the notion that all calls lead to investigation is simply a misnomer in many locations. Also, while there are awful anecdotal stories of abuses within the system, statistically speaking, there are so many children who are removed from truly abusive and neglectful situations while parents get it back together. And many parents do get it back together. In the places I've lived, only a minority of foster care cases ever result in any kind of termination of parental rights and longterm alternative to the child going back home.

This is absolutely true, and I think where the concern comes from.

Most (not all, but most) of the social workers I have worked with over the years have had good common sense about this. I get worried even before our regular home visits when we have a foster kido with us. I always make sure to do a good cleaning of the house. But one of our social workers even said to me about himself: "The big joke around the office is how if anyone ever called CPS on me, my kids would get removed because of what a disaster my house is. Don't worry. I have kids too. I know what it is like. Just relax."

I know there are social workers who don't have a good grasp on reality. I have certainly worked with a few. I will never feel comfortable with some social workers when they are in my home. So I am not trying to downplay this.

But I think we ought to honor the many smart, common sense, decent social workers who are out there every.single.day visiting homes and making good, supportive decisions that help families.

Yup! Myth #2 is that investigation always=removal of a child. In many cases, this simply doesn't happen. I don't remember the exact figures, but the statistics are striking...like, maybe 1% of investigations result in removal or something??? In many cases, the investigations lead no where and the cases are closed. In some cases, support services are made available to families and removal of children is prevented through intervention.

The foster kids who have come into my care have almost 100% been cases of very straight-forward abuse or neglect, and have definitely been severe enough to warrant removal of the child from the home.

Absolutely. I think this is deserving of our consideration. When I got trained as a foster mom, we were told, "It isn't a matter of IF you will be investigated. Statistically, as a foster parent, there is a good chance you WILL be investigated, and it is more of question of how and why and when." I live with a high degree of fear as a result. As foster parents, we have all kinds of regulatory folks in our lives...we have angry and hurt birthparents...we have constant home visits...we have children who are processing a lot of hurt from their pasts and who sometimes are very mixed up...

If a social worker showed up unexpectedly at my door and told me I was being investigated, you can bet I would be too scared and too hurt and too angry and too sad and too shaken up to benefit at all from the experience. Seriously, just talking about it scares the living daylights out of me. But, on the other hand, I do understand that:

and I even in all that fear I can recognize that:

That said, veronicalynne, it does sound like prejudice and bigotry where a part of the impetus for the call YMCA made to CPS in your case, and that is awful. And to all parents who have experienced unecessary investigations, my heart breaks for you and I am so sorry.

Sorry, it was the CPS who said they had to automatically investigate. Maybe they said it to mollify me? I dont know. Or maybe the YMCA made it sound bad or something? All I know is CPS thinks it was inappropriate for them to have been called. One of my husbands friends had CPS called on them too but I dont know why. But again, they are not North American and I know I had to warn them not to leave their kids in the car to sleep unsupervised even with the door open (I am born Canadian and not of arabic background at all and it horrified me when I found out). I assume CPS in the States and Canada have the same policies? I have a friend who works in a parallel area who crosses with CPS all the time and she is going to try to find out what the YMCA said exactly. I am planning to lodge a complaint in any case. If their call was a legimate concern, I can understand that. My husband does sound gruff and I know he was frustrating the lifeguards (can you imagine how I must feel?) but they had no basis for trying to tell CPS I was physically abused. I just am not sure who exactly who to complain to. The manager at the YMCA wont care even when we cancel our membership but I do want to address the prejudice there.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sebandg'smama* 
A messy house is a problem if the child can get sick (old food, fecal matter) or hurt themselves from the debris/clutter.
It can be evidence of someone suffering from depression/mental illness and thus the family is in need of some support.

I realize that a social worker coming to one's house doesn't feel supportive, just scary and intrusive, but their mandate is to keep kids safe.

Right, and I tend to have confidence that a social worker can tell the difference between the morning's breakfast dishes being left out vs. a week or more's old food around, a stained carpet vs. a filthy carpet, toys left out vs. no room to walk, etc. etc. etc.

I would like to think that anyone could come into my home and realize that we are a pretty normal family that has some average mess, but that we're all happy and healthy.

But, you know I don't need to have that experience to find out for sure.









I do think that there are stereotypes of the characteristics of an abusive or neglectful family, and unfortunately I'd be a lot more worried if we were living in a rough neighborhood, in low-income housing, or in areas where other kids were being abused.... you know, where I'm in an area where other parents and kids are having real problems.

I think I would let a CPS worker in my door anytime, but it also depends on my assessment of if they were someone reasonable or not, and how nicely they asked and how they answered my questions. That is me living in a safe, quiet neighborhood with virtually nothing to fear.

I also think if there were truly something wrong, we have stable and secure family who could take temporary custody of the kids. If our family was messed up and I had no one to back me up, I'd be a lot more cautious.


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## azfiresmbm (Sep 23, 2007)

CPS is handled different in every state .
CPS is handled different in every county or city/town .
CPS will always be the enemy by either doing to much or doing to little

We like to say we live in a "class-less" society but we don't ..

Our "class" plays a role in how CPS responds to different reports ..

Where we live plays a role in how CPS responds to reports ..

Through television and film we are more likely to believe that the person with the minimum wage job is more likely to abuse their child then the person who makes $6figures ..
Someone with "less education" is more likely to respond in a negative way toward CPS making them investigate more ..
Someone with a "higher" education is more likely to "work the system" and get away with things..

I like to think about all those "laws of attraction" books out there ..
If you believe it , then it will come true..
If someone is constantly fearful of CPS then they will act defensive or strange when talking to people making others think they are hiding something . resulting in a call to CPS


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *azfiresmbm* 
Someone with a "higher" education is more likely to "work the system" and get away with things..

Oh. Well, maybe my BS degree will come in handy for me after all. But I agree with KBecks -- I don't feel a need to have the experience so I can find out for sure.







I hope I never have to use these brains in that way. And here's another big







for all who are dealing with CPS at this time. Please keep us posted, guys! I'm rooting for you!

I'm torn as to whether I'd invite them in or not, it would probably depend on my gut-feeling at the moment. If they were behaving at all suspiciously, I'd probably decline the in-house visit unless they had a warrant (and do like my friend did and immediately contract with a lawyer -- once you do that you don't have to deal with CPS directly, all communication goes through the lawyer).

Of course, I've heard they're more suspicious about people who don't voluntarily open their homes. I'm really a hospitable gal, I've just heard that CPS-workers are there to look for flaws, not chat. I prefer the chatty folks who don't walk through opening cabinets and revealing all my housekeeping flaws. I know, I know, they only care if the mess is hazardous to my children.

But guess what -- whether it's hazardous to children is totally a matter of opinion. What's livable to one person is gross to another. I don't want abused children to keep being abused -- I just fail to see how sacrificing everyone's freedom and privacy is the only way to save the children. Especially since a spotlessly clean house is no guarantee that abuse is "not" happening.


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## LionessMom (Mar 12, 2008)

CPS visits my house regularly. At least 3 times a month. they never say anything about how my house looks and sometimes it looks ragged. but i know where the line is. dont have garbage the house or in the yard. wash the dishes once a day. keep cleanish clothes on your kid. bathe them every other day or so. make sure they are kept out of danger of all kinds. offer them loving attention. that is what my cps worker basically told me.
by the way, i am not the one who got in trouble, it was my SCs other parent. i have been in trouble myself before. 10 years ago i wasnt taking care of my DS. i was smoking pot and not picking up the cat feces off the floor. My poor DS. i am glad they came. i am not glad they took him away (i got him back after two months) but it was what i needed. i would have kept on the way i was if they hadnt shown me i was ruining his life. today he is a happy guy. he does remember them taking him and why. it put a strain on our realtionship but my hard work at making it better for us has done a lot to redeem his trust in me. he knows i wont let him down again.

i am not scared if CPS. well.. maybe a little. i dont tell them i co-sleep, or questioning the whole vax thing. they no i BF but i might not let them know how long i plan on doing it (CLW).
my point, i guess, was that CPS isnt always a bad thing. they do a lot of good for kids who need it. DS and I are grateful that our life was changed for the better.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

LionessMom, I'm glad it worked out for you!


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

Through television and film we are more likely to believe that the person with the minimum wage job is more likely to abuse their child then the person who makes $6figures ..
Is that a just stereotype? Or is it statistics and studies?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
Is that a just stereotype? Or is it statistics and studies?

Well, statistics and studies only show the abuse cases that have actually been called in and proven.

So, if CPS already has more of a slant toward investigating calls on people in lower-income neighborhoods, and if they're also doing profiling which makes them less-inclined to close investigations on families that fit a certain profile -- well, then, I certainly think statistics and studies will always be more likely to "prove" the stereotype.

Additionally, higher-income people are more likely to live in neighborhoods where there's more space between homes, and probably better insulation. In my dh's previous marriage, they got a visit from CPS when their baby was very fussy due to teething, and someone in their apartment-building was concerned that someone might be hurting the baby.

The investigation was closed immediately after the worker saw that the baby was teething, and there were clearly no signs of abuse or neglect. But if the worker'd seen anything to make her suspicious of foul play, there probably would have been further intervention and this low-income abuse case would have been added to the statistics "proving" that poorer people are more likely to hurt their kids.

In contrast, a teething child in a wealthy neighborhood is likely to go unheard by neighbors, so it wouldn't get called in to even be considered for investigation. So if there's "more going on," it's less likely to get discovered and added to statistics.

Also, I've heard enough anecdotal accounts of people getting called in by neighbors who are p!ssed at them about something, and want to get back at them through their kids.

I've heard that workers claim it's always "obvious" when it's just a revenge-call -- but I don't know, I think some of those calls probably get taken seriously and investigated.

I think that when people have purchased their own home in a neighborhood, they feel a little more settled and are less likely to want to do anything to antagonize their neighbors.

So while a concerned renter, or a renter who just didn't like her neighbors, might feel she had nothing to lose by picking up the phone -- a homeowner might be more inclined to give her neighbors the benefit-of-the-doubt, try to befriend the family she's concerned about, and so on.

So the more money a family has, the less likely they are to get called in, get investigated, and get added to abuse-statistics. Except in the rare cases where a child is murdered or brutally injured -- but I don't think the majority of abusive parents ever go to that extreme, whether rich or poor.

I honestly wish all profiling could be stopped, and each call could just be taken on its own merits, the worker deciding to investigate or not, based on what's said in the call and not what neighborhood the accused lives in.

And when investigating, I wish the workers could just focus on actual signs of abuse or neglect, and not get hung up on whether the family has enough characteristics to match any "profiles."

But then maybe more cases would get closed automatically, which might affect the funding for this public service?


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## ChickityChinah (Jul 25, 2007)

I have never had an issue w/ CPS, but I actually kind of half-jokingly/half-seriously was worried that we might get a visit recently. DS broke his wrist in two places at school in April, then a month later I had to take DD into the ER for a nursemaid dislocation on her elbow, and then 3 weeks after THAT, DD fell and FRACTURED the SAME elbow. I was totally waiting for someone at the ER to ask me questions about my home situation or ask to interview my son!

I actually took DD back to the same ortho that DS had been to with his wrist and they just looked at me like what are YOU doing back here?!

I have accident prone kids, what can I say?


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

As homebirthing, non vaccinating, extended breastfeeding, homeschooler yes, I do.

I think my state and county are pretty good about accepting natural parenting but its still a fear.


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## sdm1024 (Sep 4, 2006)

Quote:

A lot of it is WHERE the bruises are. There are certain places/types of injuries that are difficult to self inflict. Some of it is whether the parent's story makes sense and is consistent.
This is very true. In nursing school, I had to take this seminar on child abuse because nurses are mandatory reporters. Kids have accidents, some more than others. There are other signs of child abuse that are looked for, combined with the type and location of injury.


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## veronicalynne (Nov 4, 2006)

Well, we are supposed to have CPS come today to talk to my husband and she asked if I could be there so he wont be so defensive (she just wants to ask him about parenting courses for him). I mentioned in a previous post about why they were called (it was bogus, and I think prejudice was involved even CPS said they should not have been called) so I wont get into that again. Hubby is from Iraq and I dont think he took the idea of CPS seriously until I told him about a few examples where they took the children away....I dont think they have the Iraqi equivalant there so he didnt understand it

















One of his friends sons is autistic and someone called about his behavior (they didnt bother to find out first whether there was a medical reason for his behavior) and the guy actually told CPS to take the kids







My husband thought that was funny and how you should talk to them.....until I straightened him out a bit ( I am Canadian of english/scottish background so am a bit more familar with our society here)......so if you can wish me luck that the man will be reasonable and realize they are not attacking him but that they do have to respond and talk to him (apparently the person who called made up some things and even tried to tell CPS I was physically abused) I would greatly appreciate it.


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## veronicalynne (Nov 4, 2006)

Well, CPS came yesterday and she told me that they always ask the wife/woman if she is physically abused....is that true?


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veronicalynne* 
Well, CPS came yesterday and she told me that they always ask the wife/woman if she is physically abused....is that true?

It might be standard, because statistically children are more likely to be abused if they are in a home where spousal abuse is taking place. They also might ask it to cover their arses, because I could see the media making a huge deal if there was a situation where they missed spousal abuse and something happened.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Threads like this make me upset. I am currently in school to get my degree as a social worker and I cannot believe how many stereotypes there are of the "evil social workers." I quite honestly, do not want to work in CPS as a social worker. Many people do not realize that there are social workers in dang near every aspect of life. They work within hospitals, with people with disabilities, the elderly, in schools, in private practice (counseling), they work with communities, in political realms, in nonprofit agencies, within the court systems, in substance abuse programs, and in so many other realms. CPS is just a tiny sliver of the areas that social workers can be found.

I can tell you from my personal experience in school that we are not taught to seek out messy houses, extended breastfeeding, non-vaxing, homeschooling, high or low income, or any other characteristic that has been mentioned in this thread. We in fact are taught the complete opposite... to be able to look past the the differences in lives from our own and be able to pick out actual problems that affect a child's well-being. The big things are substance abuse, a history of physical or sexual abuse within the family, and neglectful behaviors (which _could_ focus on the cleanliness of a home, but only in a way that would be toxic and could bring illness to the child).

Threads like this make me want to go into CPS just so that I can prove that it is not like everyone thinks it is. The unfortunate thing is that I would never be able to prove anything due to the little bit about confidentiality. Confidentiality is what causes the rumors to start and to grow. A social worker cannot give out the true information and thus stories start flying.


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## veronicalynne (Nov 4, 2006)

From what CPS told me yesterday, they think the call was malicious also and that prejudice was possibly also involved. They advised me I could call a lawyer about what the YMCA did. I asked about the physical abuse question because a friend of mine had CPS called and they never asked that question at all.....I explained my story in a previous post. I am not disappointed in CPS....they were told a bogus revenge story and had to investigate but I am disappointed in people who have a stereotype about others and use CPS for revenge. CPS is there for a good reason kwim?


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## mjg013 (Jul 29, 2008)

I don't fear CPS. One of my close friends actually works for our local DFACS. I took my 3rd dd to the ER 3 times in 2 months for sticking beads up her nose. The 3rd time resulted in her having to be put under to get it out. My mom said they were going to call CPS on me. Yeah because people love to torture their children by stuffing beads up their noses and then taking them to the ER to pay to have them removed. I have a ped who is very supportive of natural parenting and selective or delayed vaxing. I have 7 kids so I've been to the ER quite a bit. 3 kids have had to have stitches or dermabond, one of them twice. Moira broke her collarbone when she fell out of a chair when she was 2 years old. The one who stuck the beads up her nose is also very accident prone and one time at a WBV I asked the pediatrician about it and how I was worried they would think I abused them. He said no way, that kids who are being abused and neglected have injuries that are far different than the normal cuts and bruises that children get from just playing and being kids. But I do have a friend who went through a horrible ordeal with CPS because her dh is vision impaired and their baby somehow got a fractured rib and the hospital said the ONLY way it could happen was from intentional abuse and then when they couldn't prove it they tried to blame it on his vision impairment. They finally had their final hearing and are waiting to see what happens although all charges have been dropped.


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## mjg013 (Jul 29, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sierra* 
I take issue with the flat statements some are making that "if someone calls, they have to investigate." This is simply inaccurate. I am a foster parent and a mandatory reporter. I am very familiar with the system. In all the states I have lived in, calls are screened, and not every call leads to an investigation.

The myth that all calls=an investigation is one of the reasons people turn a blind eye when they are concerned. They worry what will happen if it is no big deal or if they are wrong. I think kids wait longer for help in legitimate abuse cases because people are afraid to call.

The fact of the matter is, many calls are screened out with no investigation ever completed. The reasons for this are many and varied. It may be that the described situation doesn't meet some standard of "what counts." For example, I have mentioned on other threads and maybe on this one about my dw calling when a kid she had taught for a couple of years finally told her his father beat him regularly with a clothing hanger. She had a very strong feeling (based on other hints the child had given) that this was the tip of the iceberg, and that an investigation would turn up much greater abuse. BUT, when she called, she was informed that hitting a child with a hanger doesn't constitute a need for an investigation, particularly as no bruising was evident to my dw (though it may have been under clothing). In that state, the defining factor in when a beating becomes abuse is when it leaves a mark on a child for more than a half hour.

In other cases, investigations are screened out for reasons such as proper support in the home. I once made a cooperative call with a mother of a young mom who was neglecting her baby (the mother's grandchild). Because the young mom was living with her own mother (the child's grandmother), the grandmother was able to "make up" for the neglect issues, protecting the child from the consequences. Thus, the screener for the call screened it out for the purposes of investigation. However, on our request, she did send this young mom a letter informing her of the concerns, giving her information on some medical issues that had been neglected, and referring her to a number of support resources in the community. In that case, even if it had been investigated, I doubt it would have constituted a removal of the child from her home. But I do think it would have led the mother to greater resources and given her the push to UTILIZE the resources she needed.

Recently, a member right here at MDC called out of concern regarding her BIL's abusive behavior with his kids. The call was screened out for investigation, by the account given to us, in part because the mother was present and seemed to provide the children with some protection.

At least in the places I have lived, MOST calls don't go anywhere. A minority percentage result in investigation, and still a greater minority result in removal of a child from the home.

Yes, there are abuses within the system. I've seen them first hand. And being on the receiving end of an unwarranted investigation I can only imagine is heartbreaking and absolutely destructive (I already posted that I do fear this). But I think it is important that we have our facts straight here, and the notion that all calls lead to investigation is simply a misnomer in many locations. Also, while there are awful anecdotal stories of abuses within the system, statistically speaking, there are so many children who are removed from truly abusive and neglectful situations while parents get it back together. And many parents do get it back together. In the places I've lived, only a minority of foster care cases ever result in any kind of termination of parental rights and longterm alternative to the child going back home.

This is absolutely true, and I think where the concern comes from.

Most (not all, but most) of the social workers I have worked with over the years have had good common sense about this. I get worried even before our regular home visits when we have a foster kido with us. I always make sure to do a good cleaning of the house. But one of our social workers even said to me about himself: "The big joke around the office is how if anyone ever called CPS on me, my kids would get removed because of what a disaster my house is. Don't worry. I have kids too. I know what it is like. Just relax."

I know there are social workers who don't have a good grasp on reality. I have certainly worked with a few. I will never feel comfortable with some social workers when they are in my home. So I am not trying to downplay this.

But I think we ought to honor the many smart, common sense, decent social workers who are out there every.single.day visiting homes and making good, supportive decisions that help families.

Yup! Myth #2 is that investigation always=removal of a child. In many cases, this simply doesn't happen. I don't remember the exact figures, but the statistics are striking...like, maybe 1% of investigations result in removal or something??? In many cases, the investigations lead no where and the cases are closed. In some cases, support services are made available to families and removal of children is prevented through intervention.

The foster kids who have come into my care have almost 100% been cases of very straight-forward abuse or neglect, and have definitely been severe enough to warrant removal of the child from the home.

Absolutely. I think this is deserving of our consideration. When I got trained as a foster mom, we were told, "It isn't a matter of IF you will be investigated. Statistically, as a foster parent, there is a good chance you WILL be investigated, and it is more of question of how and why and when." I live with a high degree of fear as a result. As foster parents, we have all kinds of regulatory folks in our lives...we have angry and hurt birthparents...we have constant home visits...we have children who are processing a lot of hurt from their pasts and who sometimes are very mixed up...

If a social worker showed up unexpectedly at my door and told me I was being investigated, you can bet I would be too scared and too hurt and too angry and too sad and too shaken up to benefit at all from the experience. Seriously, just talking about it scares the living daylights out of me. But, on the other hand, I do understand that:

and I even in all that fear I can recognize that:

That said, veronicalynne, it does sound like prejudice and bigotry where a part of the impetus for the call YMCA made to CPS in your case, and that is awful. And to all parents who have experienced unecessary investigations, my heart breaks for you and I am so sorry.

Good post. A while back when my kids were 2,4,5,6, and 9 the oldest 2 were in school and my 5 year old was in PreK about a 5 min drive from my house. The preK and elementary school get out at the same time. Well the elementary bus got to the bus stop which was down the street in sight of our house at 2:50 and preK got out at 2:30 with no bus so I had to go pick her up. One day, my car broke down when I went to pick up my 5 year old. I called everybody close by I knew and no one was home to meet the school bus. I always let my 9 year old keep a key just in case. So my 9 year old and 6 year old got home before I did by about 10-15 mins. I felt horrible that the oldest 2 were home alone for even a little while. They were safe. My 9 year old knew to go inside, lock the doors and start homework. But the next day my 6 year old told her teacher that I left them home alone "all the time". when they got home that day my oldest told me that the principal had called her and my 6 year old to the office separately and asked them questions about whether I let them stay at home alone all the time, etc. I was so worried. So I called my friend who works at DFACS and asked her about it. She said not to worry that leaving a 6 year old and a 9 year old home alone was not going to open an investigation on me. That unless there had been complaints from neighbors or obvious signs of abuse or neglect in the past there were no grounds for an investigation. She also said that even if they did come to the house that they would judge such things on a case to case basis and I had nothing to worry about but that she's never heard of investigating someone for leaving a 9 year old and 6 year old home alone for 15 mins. I talked to my friend about it and she said teachers know kids say crazy things and blow things out of proportion that her dd went to school one day and told her teacher that her dad had killed her brother and stuffed him under the bed. So, I don't fear CPS. I think they have more common sense than they're given credit for. Obviously not the case all the time but for the most part I think it probably is.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

*wemoon*, I understand your frustration about this thread.

At the same time, as loving, attached parents, only a couple things seem more heartbreaking than a child leaving our care and protection. It is one of a few absolute nightmares we can imagine as parents. And yet many here are going against the mainstream, putting us in a bit more vulnerable position. So I think it makes a lot of sense that people would experience fear and anxiety...and yes, even be a little irrational (think of how many parents are afraid of stranger abduction and abuse of children in relationship to how the vast, vast majority of children who are abducted and/or abused have these things occur with someone they know and trust...you can point that out to the fearful mom who thinks even her oldest child can't play in the yard without 100% constant supervision, but she is not going to hear it).

None of us want to experience our worst nightmares, so we experience fear even if the chance of being victimized by CPS is statistically VERY small. Sure you read stories on the internet, but look, I am a foster parent and until the very end when a parent has really started to get his or life back together, do you think any of the parents of my foster children have been the first to admit wrong-doing? Of course not! More than one would be the type to get online and start posting that they have been wrongfully targeted and are being attacked for really no reason at all. They won't be telling you about the crap they have done or allowed to be done or neglected to do to, with, or for their children. It's only when parents start taking responsibility that the real stories start coming out, and you aren't likely to read that on the internet.

Nonetheless, wemoon, have you ever been afraid after hearing a ghost story? I'm not comparing CPS to ghost stories because frankly, I do know first hand of a couple of social workers who didn't have common sense and whose training in differentiating the big stuff from the little apparently did nothing for them, but think about it...

Surely you have been afraid on occassion late at night when you run across a spooky story on the net or something. Surely you have felt heart-pounding fear even when you have known it was irrational. Afterall, has there ever been a genuine, documented case in which a ghost physically harmed or killed a person?!

That said, I hope you have been comforted in this thread by the _number of people_ who have posted with nothing but compassion and support for social workers who work for CPS. For example, in post 44 (I hope you'll go back and read it a second time: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...3&postcount=48), I said "I think we ought to honor the many smart, common sense, decent social workers who are out there every.single.day visiting homes and making good, supportive decisions that help families."

*veronicalynne*, glad it sounds like CPS is dealing with the situation decently and recognizing the problem with the original call. I do know that if something like domestic violence is mentioned in a reporting call, it would generally be the kind of thing they'd have to ask about. They need to cover the subject matter of the original phone call.

Since children witnessing domestic violence would in many cases, in many states, be considered a form of child abuse (the abusive spouse being the one who is abusing the child through the violence toward the child's other parent)...and as someone mentioned, can also be a risk factor for the abuse of a child, I would be surprised if they didn't ask as long as it was part of the original accusation. So my guess is they don't ask in EVERY case they investigate, but they do ask if it was mentioned by the person who first reported.


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## veronicalynne (Nov 4, 2006)

[QUOTE

*veronicalynne*, glad it sounds like CPS is dealing with the situation decently and recognizing the problem with the original call. I do know that if something like domestic violence is mentioned in a reporting call, it would generally be the kind of thing they'd have to ask about. They need to cover the subject matter of the original phone call.

Since children witnessing domestic violence would in many cases, in many states, be considered a form of child abuse (the abusive spouse being the one who is abusing the child through the violence toward the child's other parent)...and as someone mentioned, can also be a risk factor for the abuse of a child, I would be surprised if they didn't ask as long as it was part of the original accusation. So my guess is they don't ask in EVERY case they investigate, but they do ask if it was mentioned by the person who first reported.[/QUOTE]

That is what I thought. I remember the 2 lifeguards watching me and following me to the washroom to ask if I was abused and even when I laughed and then firmly told them no and assured them I was not they later sent their supervisor to talk to me. I know they were irritated at my husbands not understanding them but to use CPS that way? I dont know what I am more upset about: using CPS that way (as if they have time for bogus calls), or the prejudice. At least the workers I met seemed to have it together and noticed something didnt seem right about the poor battered wife thing, and I also have a good friend who works with abused children who visits usually 2x a week. I gave her number to CPS and invited them to call her for confirmation. I mean, there is a good reason CPS exists, and it bothers me to see them having to waste their time kwim? My next step is to have a meeting with the head of the local YMCA. After that, I am not sure what to do. Maybe write letters to my local mps, the paper, a lawyer.....I really hate hate hate prejudice and I did notice a big difference when I put the hijab on (people tend to assume I am lebanese....I am a convert of english/scottish background), and I have seen how people have treated my husband who is Iraqi (looks very "arabic"). Unfortunately, the city we live in is very intolerant.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

*Sierra*, I have followed your posts and you make very sound statements and arguments on both sides. I appreciate your thoughts and think that they reflect the truth of CPS more than the irrational fears.

Yes, I have had irrational fears, but not so much that I focus on how to make sure my house looks the 'right' way. I can talk myself down from the irrational fears after researching facts. Maybe it would be wise for those who deeply fear social workers to actually meet one and discuss their fears?

As a social worker to be, we follow the National Association of Social Workers code of ethics. It explicitly states that we are to value human relationships, respect the inherent dignity and worth of individuals, practice in areas of competency, provide service to oppressed populations, promote social justice, and practice with integrity. A social worker that maliciously removes a child from a home would be breaking every single one of the ethical standards that they are bound to. The ultimate goal that the social worker needs to work towards is restoring the family to a functioning system. This requires A LOT of work on the parents part. Someone who abuses alcohol or drugs is not going to be able to recover in a short amount of time. A social worker is also supposed to work on goals WITH the client, as in the client makes the goals and the social worker helps the client reach those goals.

I get the fear. No one wants to have their children taken away from them. That is why I am suggesting that people take the time to learn more about their fear and how founded it is. The National Association of Social Workers website is: http://www.naswdc.org/ Here is the issue fact sheet on children and families: http://www.naswdc.org/pressroom/feat...e/children.asp The second to the last paragraph is important. Social workers are to PRESERVE the family, which is why in many cases people are wondering why a child remains in the home when the situation is bad.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

veronicalynne --







The more you share, the more I think it really was a prejudice-thing. It sounds like the lifeguards were making all kinds of assumptions, simply based on you wearing a covering and not being in the pool with your husband and kids.

Yet my dh doesn't especially enjoy swimming, and will sometimes sit and watch the kids and me, rather than swim himself. I don't think anyone's ever followed him into the washroom to ask if I abused him!

It sounds like they were being awfully nosy, and maybe assuming that your reason for not being in the water might be that your husband didn't "allow" you to "bathe in public," or some such nonsense.









I'm glad the CPS-workers seem to recognize it for what it is.


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