# Dads and Co-Sleeping



## Squirrelly (Mar 24, 2005)

Hi, all--

I'm writing this out of concern for some friends. My husband and I are friends with three couples who have had babies within the last five months. All the wives wanted to, and thusly do, have their babies sleep with them.

As time went by, my husband and I heard from the husbands regarding this situation--and they were not happy at all. They felt their wives saw them as less important than the baby, they felt isolated, they felt they were not part of the decision, etc. They also felt that every time they tried to talk about this with their wives, they were shut down. These are all really nice guys who love their wives and kids, and I feel for them.

I guess what I'm asking is this: is there a way for the men in these situations to have some kind of meaningful discussion about where the baby should sleep? I think they're all resigned and, even worse, embittered by this.

I'm a woman, and I can understand wanting to have your baby near you, but I also think that a strong marriage between parents is crucial to the development of a child. Also, I think a couple should decide together how to handle the raising of their child. Parents should have equal say--fathers are too often absent from their children's lives these days, and to discourage them from participating is a shame.

I just have no idea what to say or do--I can see both sides to this, but it does seem as if the father's opinion is often secondary.

Any thoughts would be very much appreciated! My hubby and I are kind of in the middle of this whole thing, and we really wish we could help!


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## AmieV (Mar 31, 2005)

I honestly think that if dads want to make a big stink about cosleeping, they need to shoulder their load of the nighttime parenting. Too often I hear of breastfeeding families where the dad doesn't want to cosleep...what sense does that make?? He is not the one doing the work.

If these men want to open a dialogue about this, they need to begin by offering to make it as easy as possible on the mama, by going to get the baby when they wake in the night (and that means AS SOON AS they wake up, which is sometimes tough for men I think because their instincts aren't as in tune as mom's), change the diaper if need be, and bring baby to mom to nurse, or take baby back to their room when they're done eating, at every. single. feeding. Honestly once they do that a few nights most dads seem to feel like cosleeping is not such a bad idea.

Also they need to acknowledge how their wives might be feeling. I know I was very, very, very anxious in the first few months after my baby was born and when she was not in bed with me I was checking on her several times a night when she started sleeping through.

I kind of fundamentally disagree with you and the guys on this one...I can see when a baby gets older and dad doesn't want to continue to cosleep with a 3 year old that kicks him all night...but a nursing baby needs to be close to his/her mama, and usually mama needs to be close to baby. It's how we're designed. I think it's being way overdramatic to think that your marriage is coming in second or going to be damaged by 6 months-1 year of cosleeping. I also don't think that all parenting decisions are 50/50. Like I said, it's way more work for the nursing mother to have baby in another room, so I do think her opinion holds more weight. There are also a lot of benefits, like a reduction in SIDS, to cosleeping that these dads should consider IMO.

I know my DH and I were sort of freaked about cosleeping with our first DD, but this time around we are seasoned enough to know that you do what works. I guess I am just lucky that I have a DH that knows and trusts our marriage is strong enough to spend a few months on the couch so that we can ALL get a better night of rest. It's not just about considering the needs of the couple or the marriage to me...it's about considering the needs of the whole family, and I also think that if baby needs to be in bed, dad is in a much better position to understand and sacrifice a little than the baby is.


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## guest9921 (Nov 3, 2005)

My partner took a few months of warming up until he was sold entirely on the cosleeping idea. After a few weeks, I asked him to put the giant eyesore of a crib away - due to lack of space (old house, small rooms.)
He kind of freaked. "What do you mean put it away, isn't he going to use it soon??" I cried. How could anyone think I would ever put my son in a crib? He agreed - a few more months, and then we'd talk again about transitioning. Until then, the crib could reside in the basement.

I believe it's just part of my partners loving nature - but now, at 16m he's a hardcore cosleeping activist.

As PP said - babies and mothers are designed for closeness.
I suppose the mothers could either take a stand, and because of the fragile relationship egos of their partners - they may end up in a big conflict.
Or - they can approach it in a babystep type ideal as I did - a few more months....and then we'll talk about it, kind of thing. Make them feel more comfortable - spend more time with them, reassure their virility - the first 5-6 months are so hard, I tend to forget how much they threw our relationship into wacky limbo.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Ya know what? Dad's wants ARE second to baby's needs. So are mom's. That's part of being a parent. Any man who isn't ready to face that, isn't ready to be a dad. I think it's largely a maturity issue.

-Angela


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

Encourage the men to do some looking into the subject. They probably are feeling cut out because they aren't the centre of their wives world anymore AND they haven't a clue what they are talking about.

As in, I imagine their wives have looked into the issue and their husbands have not. They are attempting the do the one thing that men tend to castigate women about the most - they are making an issue and a decision based solely on their emotions. Not on data, only on how THEY feel about it. And because that simply doesn't cut it with their wives they are angry - at their wives.

They need to grow up, go look into the information sort out their reasons. That way they are approaching the thing from a position of knowledge. As it is, I imagine that they are embittered because they KNOW that they are being little pouty boys and want their wives to fix the situation for them. But they also know that their wives are being excellent mothers, and doing the best they can for their off-spring and so feel extra pouty since they know they ARE NOT as commited as their wives and feel guilty about it.

Asking their wives to be worse mothers to make them feel better isn't the solution.


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## vanessab23 (Nov 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Ya know what? Dad's wants ARE second to baby's needs. So are mom's. That's part of being a parent. Any man who isn't ready to face that, isn't ready to be a dad. I think it's largely a maturity issue.

-Angela









:


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## Squirrelly (Mar 24, 2005)

Babies are entirely dependent on their parents--that's not even an issue. But why do some mothers marginalize their husbands, when they are only trying to do what they're told? Yes, a baby needs his or her mother. But what about the father? I cannot understand why a mother would ignore and trivialize her husband about something they both created, and thusly both have responsibility.

Women have been trying to get the fathers of their children to be more attentive and more involved for years--by maginilizing them, how in the world does that help? If both the mother AND the father of a child would equally bear the roughness and joys of raising their child, society might be a bit better off.

Why do we assume men cannot understand the bond between mother and child? Why do we think men are incapable of understanding women and what we feel with our children? That is where the fundamental problem lies. Many women assume their husbands are not equipped to care for babies, and so they refuse to help their husbands to get to know the role of a father.

My sister, for example, has a husband who tries his darndest to help raise their son, but she constantly yells at him because he's not doing things the way she would do them. The poor guy loves his son, but is afraid to do anything. My other sister has a husband who is very attentive to his kids and has been from the start because he and my sister decided they were equal partners, and would always decide on their children's upbringing together.

And that is my point--the mother and father should agree on every point. If we continue to chastise and marginalize men, what good are we doing? Yes, they obviously can't breastfeed, but why would they be unable to do other things? By saying they are useless, we are making them useless. I think a lot of fathers would help out if we would allow them to. I've seen it happen, and it's incredibly natural. Both partners can figure out a way to equally raise their child.

I should probably add that my sisters and I were raised by my father, and he was a wonderful parent!


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## AmieV (Mar 31, 2005)

Yes, mothers want fathers to be more involved. But not more involved in making decisions that are selfishly motivated, like kicking baby out of bed. What reason do these dads have for not wanting to cosleep? I'm willing to bet they're getting shut down on these discussions because they don't have a leg to stand on. When I think of all the sacrifices and pressures having children has put on our marriage, cosleeping is WAY off in the distance on the list of Important Discussions to Have.

I really don't get your last post at all. Yes, mothers and fathers should bear the load of parenting equally. Night and day. Are you saying these dads are willing to do all that I mentioned in my previous post just to not cosleep? Are you aware that even the AAP recommends nursing babies sleep close to their mothers (they fall short of recommending actual cosleeping because some idiots will do it unsafely) to establish and maintain a healthy milk supply?

I think what mothers want from fathers is active participants, in the research and reading and the practical day to day work.

I just think your basic assumption--that cosleeping somehow is a hardship on dad--is wrong. Any man that can't buck up and deal with a little cosleeping, ESPECIALLY since among your friends the oldest baby is 5 months old? is far from ready to be a father, the kind of father you're describing, an active participant. Is his need to sleep in the same bed alone with his wife every single night on the same level as the baby needing to be there? That makes absolutely no sense. We're talking tiny babies here. Yeah, their needs come first, far and away, before anyone in that house. I could really use 8 hours of sleep right now, but guess what? I ain't gettin' it because baby NEEDS to nurse every few hours.

I don't really understand what you're getting at here. Are you saying these dads are going to their wives with information on why cosleeping isn't good for their babies, and offering to shoulder their part of nighttime parenting to get baby out of bed? What motivations do they have for opening this dialogue? I think women trivialize men on this issue because they're arguing it for trivial reasons.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

1. I don't really see how to compromise. (It's not like you can do every other night, or half-in-half out).

2. In my book, the one who is up at night makes the final call. If dad can give bm to babe all night, then, sure, it is his call. But, dad can't say that baby is in a crib, then expect me to get up and bf in a rocking chair or something.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Squirrelly* 
Babies are entirely dependent on their parents--that's not even an issue. But why do some mothers marginalize their husbands, when they are only trying to do what they're told? Yes, a baby needs his or her mother. But what about the father? I cannot understand why a mother would ignore and trivialize her husband about something they both created, and thusly both have responsibility.

Women have been trying to get the fathers of their children to be more attentive and more involved for years--by maginilizing them, how in the world does that help? If both the mother AND the father of a child would equally bear the roughness and joys of raising their child, society might be a bit better off.

Of course, but if the dads aren't the ones getting up in the middle of the night to breastfeed, then why do they have equal say in where the baby sleeps?


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## tamagotchi (Oct 16, 2005)

Squirrelly, I don't understand what you mean by saying that cosleeping is "marginalizing" fathers. Cosleeping gives fathers a chance to be close to baby all night, just like it does with mothers. Fathers can cuddle with the baby and take over some of the night time parenting. From watching my DH interact with our child, it's clear to me that cosleeping has helped him to feel close and involved.

Maybe there is something else going on in your friends' marriages. Are the husbands' complaints really about sex? Or do the husbands feel that they are not getting enough attention from their wives and the babies are getting all the attention? A lot of times that's what husbands mean when they complain about cosleeping.


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## noahs_mommie (Jun 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Squirrelly* 
Babies are entirely dependent on their parents--that's not even an issue. But why do some mothers marginalize their husbands, when they are only trying to do what they're told? Yes, a baby needs his or her mother. But what about the father? I cannot understand why a mother would ignore and trivialize her husband about something they both created, and thusly both have responsibility.

Women have been trying to get the fathers of their children to be more attentive and more involved for years--by maginilizing them, how in the world does that help? If both the mother AND the father of a child would equally bear the roughness and joys of raising their child, society might be a bit better off.


Is it more of a intimacy issue? Maybe the husbands needs in bed are not being met because of the baby and feels it's an introsion?

Just a thought. My hubby loves co-sleeping I guess I am lucky, But I also make sure his needs are met too!


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## noahs_mommie (Jun 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tamagotchi* 
Squirrelly, I don't understand what you mean by saying that cosleeping is "marginalizing" fathers. Cosleeping gives fathers a chance to be close to baby all night, just like it does with mothers. Fathers can cuddle with the baby and take over some of the night time parenting. From watching my DH interact with our child, it's clear to me that cosleeping has helped him to feel close and involved.

Maybe there is something else going on in your friends' marriages. Are the husbands' complaints really about sex? Or do the husbands feel that they are not getting enough attention from their wives and the babies are getting all the attention? A lot of times that's what husbands mean when they complain about cosleeping.

My thoughts exactley!


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## vanessab23 (Nov 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *noahs_mommie* 
Is it more of a intimacy issue? Maybe the husbands needs in bed are not being met because of the baby and feels it's an introsion?

Just a thought. My hubby loves co-sleeping I guess I am lucky, But I also make sure his needs are met too!









:

well said Noah's Mommie. There must be something else going on. And they are not the ones to be awake all night, so they do not get to decide.

p.s. I too am lucky-- DP loves to spoon DS-- that's where they are right now, snuggled up in our bed. Neither would have it any other way, It's just so sweet


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## noahs_mommie (Jun 24, 2006)

It was a big issue when DS was born but now we just make time to be together whenever it is possible. It really has helped out alot. Talk with them about it and see if this is the case I willing to bet that this is the underlying issue. Had I not talked to DH about it we would still be battling with this ourselves. However, I am the one who has to BF and has to get up and change diapers but I do not mind at all I love being able to be close to my DS. Before too long he won't be little anymore









Quote:


Originally Posted by *vanessab23* 







:

well said Noah's Mommie. There must be something else going on. And they are not the ones to be awake all night, so they do not get to decide.

p.s. I too am lucky-- DP loves to spoon DS-- that's where they are right now, snuggled up in our bed. Neither would have it any other way, It's just so sweet


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## Squirrelly (Mar 24, 2005)

There are fathers out there who probably love co-sleeping. That's really great! I wish all men felt that way. I'm just saying that there are some fathers who are afraid to say what they think, and feel terrible and trapped by their feelings--what they think no longer matters. They love their babies, but they don't like co-sleeping, and don't want to upset their wives. They don't want to hurt anyone, and so they play along. I've heard this from several of my husband's friends--I'm not making anything up.

My brother-in-law is a developmental pediatrician, and I've heard many stories from him about this issue. If both parents are in total agreement, then nifty! But, he's told me that rarely happens. He emphazises that a strong marriage is the best thing for any child.

Wanting the best for your child is only natural. To exclude your husband in the raising of your child is almost spiteful, in my very humble opinion.


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## noahs_mommie (Jun 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Squirrelly* 
There are fathers out there who probably love co-sleeping. That's really great! I wish all men felt that way. I'm just saying that there are some fathers who are afraid to say what they think, and feel terrible and trapped. They love their babies, but they don't like co-sleeping, and don't want to upset their wives. They don't want to hurt anyone.

I am not trying to be rude at all but do you think that it is strange that they are not talking about it with their wives? I think it could be good to have a heart to heart about it and if he feels he is being selfish more reason for him to talk about it. Because not communicating about it on a healthy level is not good for thenm either.







I hope your friends can get this worked out. Also it doesn't last forever


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Squirrelly* 
There are fathers out there who probably love co-sleeping. That's really great! I wish all men felt that way. I'm just saying that there are some fathers who are afraid to say what they think, and feel terrible and trapped. They love their babies, but they don't like co-sleeping, and don't want to upset their wives. They don't want to hurt anyone.

See, there are some dads who hate diaper changes too- so? Goes with the territory. Baby NEEDS to be with mom- day and night- simple biology. If dad doesn't want baby to breastfeed does he get to veto that too?

-Angela


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Squirrelly* 
There are fathers out there who probably love co-sleeping. That's really great! I wish all men felt that way. I'm just saying that there are some fathers who are afraid to say what they think, and feel terrible and trapped. They love their babies, but they don't like co-sleeping, and don't want to upset their wives. They don't want to hurt anyone.

Maybe I'm cold-hearted, but I'm just not all that moved by this. Part of me wonders what kind of man would be so self-centered that he would want to interfere with a co-sleeping, breastfeeding baby and its mother. And part of me thinks that if a man can't suck it up and have an actual conversation about it with his wife--one where he's REALLY willing to listen--he's lost his right to complain. And part of me thinks that just "not liking" something isn't reason enough not to do it--not when you're a parent. Heaven knows I don't "like" taking care of three sick children, but I've done it because I believe it to be best. And part of me is thanking God that my husband loves cuddling our babies and children in the family bed.


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## josybear (Jul 24, 2006)

noah's mommie, squirrelly said that the wives wouldn't listen when the hubbies tried to talk about it.

imo, if one parent isn't happy with something, communication needs to occur. if dh ever stopped liking cosleeping, i'd want to know why. is it because we're crowded? is it because he feels it's unsafe? is he tired of having ds between us so we can't snuggle? is it the nighttime interruptions? there must be a reason.
as the parent that does the nighttime parenting 90% of the time, i have the stronger vote on how we sleep. but i don't want dh upset or feeling pushed aside, either.
so these friends of yours need to sit down face to face and talk about the issues at hand. the wives may not feel like talking, i know i didn't feel like facing issues in the first 9 months of ds's life, but for the health of the relationship, communication is vital.
wow, that was a long sentence.


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## noahs_mommie (Jun 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *josybear* 
noah's mommie, squirrelly said that the wives wouldn't listen when the hubbies tried to talk about it.

Yeah I read that but I was thinking maybe it was more of a heavy discusion rather then a heart to heart KWIM?

It was just a thought.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

Um... Asking men to deal with things they don't like - such as cosleeping, although what's wrong with them (with the way our society has told them men are supposed to be, would be my bet) that they don't like it? - IS asking them to be involved parents. Men have to change diapers, like it or not (or to potty the baby if they're doing EC). Men have to take care of sick babies. Men have to "give up" some of their accustomed habits - such as sleeping in a bed without a baby. Those are some of the responsibilities that go along with being a parent.

The other issue you're talking about - moms yelling at dads because they're not "doing it right" or not allowing the dads to get to know their babies - has NOTHING to do with cosleeping. Absolutely nothing. That happens in families who cosleep, in families who don't, in any kind of family. It has nothing to do with that particular parenting style. In fact, I think the family bed has great potential to decrease that kind of behavior, because dad and baby spend MORE time together, fostering attachment between them. I'm not saying it's not a real issue: it is. I've seen it repeatedly, and it always makes me really sad. But to combine that issue with cosleeping is completely missing the point.


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## Barb36 (Mar 19, 2006)

I'm going to take a stab at this one.

I have to say I agree with all the pp's and their comments on the subject. Before I had children, I swore they would sleep in a crib....however, I had NO idea what caring for a baby involved. We became a co-sleeping family from the start and were all better off for it. That was four years ago and we're now sleeping with our baby (8 months) and our 4 year old when he needs to climb in bed with us.

I suspect that these men are going through a sort of male version of postpartum depression/shock/adjustment. Having a new baby is such a HUGE adjustment and change to the relationship. I don't think anyone can really prepare for that. Everyone talks about sleep deprivation, but you really can't get it until you experience it. Breastfeeding is also a really big thing to get used to for everyone. What looks so natural and seamless is actually a really tricky skill and in the beginning takes a lot of work to figure out.

I guess I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt to these guys as the original poster sounds genuinely concerned about what they're going through. It sounds to me that they are going through their own major adjustment...life is NOT going to be the way it used to be for these guys. Having the baby sleep in a different room will not change that...it will probably make it harder on everyone.

Here's what I'd do...I would remind them that a 5 month old is still a very, very young baby. However, in the flash of an eye these babes will be toddling around and they won't remember what life was like before they were here. Remind them to give themselves and their partners time to adjust to this major change in their lives. Remind them that their partners are a sea of hormones and really need their support right now. The first year is often about survival (for everyone!)...these guys have 18 years ahead of them to make joint parenting decisions...it becomes much more of an issue as kids get older. Right now, their wives are focusing on the survival of these tiny beings that are entirely dependent on their milk and nurturing.

I guess the bottom line is that this time of life with a newborn is not representative of how their parenting decisions will go in the future. The women are going through so much with this little life 100% dependent on them for survival. As the babies grow older, joint decision-making will be necessary. For now, I think these guys might want to consider doing a bit of research, talking with other dads about what they are going through and remembering that this time of life with a new baby will pass.

I have to agree with everyone else that the bottom line here is that these guys are going to have to get over it for now. If they have trouble with that, I would be concerned about these relationships and how strong they really are.


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## Squirrelly (Mar 24, 2005)

Some of my husband's friends have talked to their wives about this, and were yelled at--one had to stay at our house for a few days. I had no idea that this would be such a huge issue, but wow! It's THE thing within our group of friends and family.


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## AmieV (Mar 31, 2005)

I promise I'm not trying to be rude, but it really ISN'T a huge issue for most people I don't think. I know a lot of parents, some crunchy and some not, who have coslept for at least the early months of infanthood and I have never heard of it erupting into an argument like that.

I have to wonder how the hubby brought it up if he got kicked out of the house over it. Again, I ask, what is their issue with cosleeping beyond just not "liking it?" Because as many PP's have mentioned, there are a whole lot of things you do that you don't like as a parent. (and as a human being in society, for that matter) And are they willing to put the work in to make another arrangement easier on the mom. And I honestly have to wonder what kind of foundation that marriage has if that kind of discussion warrants a father leaving the house for several days. Let me tell you, my marriage is not perfect and we have had some serious, serious arguments in the past, about things way less trivial than where people were sleeping...and I have never, ever wanted DH out of the house, nor has he ever wanted to leave. that seems beyond strange to me. If I were you I'd offer very little advice...there are clearly issues beyond cosleeping at hand.


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## noahs_mommie (Jun 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Squirrelly* 
Some of my husband's friends have talked to their wives about this, and were yelled at--one had to stay at our house for a few days. I had no idea that this would be such a huge issue, but wow! It's THE thing within our group of friends and family.

Sorry that your husbands friends are torn about this issue.


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## motocita (Oct 31, 2004)

i think it's kind of sad that these dads can't figure it out on their own, by being involved in their babies' lives, that the baby NEEDS mom a whole lot at this time in their life, and that co-sleeping is the easiest way to help mom cope with this incredibly exhausting duty. and that both parents are certainly making sacrifices.

i've known a few parents who solved the problem by having dad sleep in another bed for a while.

i'm not trying to be mean. i just really don't understand how this can not be totally obvious.

i must say, i can see why some of these moms got mad when the topic was brought up. i could see myself feeling very defensive if i was questioned about this.


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## Squirrelly (Mar 24, 2005)

Yikes!!

I never intended for this to be so...um...zesty, and for that, I'm sorry. I just wish both mothers and fathers would be equal partners in raising a kid, but I doubt that will ever happen. The friends I first mentioned are just getting a bit touchy about everything, which is why I thought I'd post here.

I really do want to know how to talk to the fathers, since the mothers of these babies I mentioned seem to know what they're doing, but the fathers don't. Does that make more sense? I just want to be able to give good advice, and I'd personally like these guys to be good and involved fathers.


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## noahs_mommie (Jun 24, 2006)

Let them read what was written here. Forewarn them that we mean no harm we are just passionate about co-sleeping


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Squirrelly* 
There are fathers out there who probably love co-sleeping. That's really great! I wish all men felt that way. I'm just saying that there are some fathers who are afraid to say what they think, and feel terrible and trapped by their feelings--what they think no longer matters. They love their babies, but they don't like co-sleeping, and don't want to upset their wives. They don't want to hurt anyone, and so they play along. I've heard this from several of my husband's friends--I'm not making anything up.

My brother-in-law is a developmental pediatrician, and I've heard many stories from him about this issue. If both parents are in total agreement, then nifty! But, he's told me that rarely happens. He emphazises that a strong marriage is the best thing for any child.

Wanting the best for your child is only natural. To exclude your husband in the raising of your child is almost spiteful, in my very humble opinion.

He's excluding himself. All he's doing is asking for a wife to be his mother first, and be a worse mother to his child. AND put her out even more by making her get up, get out of the room several times a night. Probably expects the house to look nice too. AND after having her get out of bed to go to another room to sit up for 45 minutes several times, THEN wants her to be fiesty and amourous at the end of the next day.

THEN, when all those expectations aren't met he'll still feel martyred and sorry for himself that his wife isn't meeting his needs.

There is some spite involved, but I think you've missed the mark on who has it.

When one is expected to function in a situation in where there is no "right" answer, something has to give. Since Mommy is already in full out given out mode with an infant, and the infant cannot give, Daddy is going to have to tie an extra set on and be a good husband.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Squirrelly* 
I really do want to know how to talk to the fathers, since the mothers of these babies I mentioned seem to know what they're doing, but the fathers don't. Does that make more sense? I just want to be able to give good advice, and I'd personally like these guys to be good and involved fathers.

Well, to be honest, if a dad came to DH and I complaining about co-sleeping, we would probably tell him to grow up and go home and talk to his wife about it some more instead of complaining to us. And maybe to grow up and stop putting himself ahead of his baby. But neither one of us are all that tactful.


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## Barb36 (Mar 19, 2006)

How old are these guys? I'm not presuming that age has everything to do with it, but it does sound like a bit of maturity issue.

I would redirect them to do some research on the subject. Do you have children yourself? If not, I think the most you can do is listen. They really need to figure this out on their own if they can't talk about it productively with their partners. There is SO much information out there on the subject...loads of books, forums like these and other websites. I think they can certainly find support out there if that's what they are looking for.

It sounds like you are feeling in the middle of this and aren't sure how to handle it. I would try to stay out of the details because this is very touchy and personal for these couples. Maybe just listening and suggesting that they search for their own answers will help.

I have to say that getting kicked out of the house is pretty big. Moms need extra hands and if they felt their partners were more of a hinderance than a help that is a real shame. I don't know what I'd do without my DH...he is invaluable to me with nighttime parenting.


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## Barb36 (Mar 19, 2006)

And I have to say again that the whole issue of joint decision making and being a team about parenting is not the issue here. These moms are just trying to get through the nights with as much sleep and as little stress as possible. This is not really a parenting issue in the way you are implying.
These guys can be a bigger part of thing when their wives boobs aren't the main attraction.


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## Barb36 (Mar 19, 2006)

The main attraction to the babes, I mean.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

I too think that when there are multiple parents in a child's life, they should, in general, be equal coparents. The family bed is part of that - it's part of how a dad can be an equal parent to his child at night. There's no conflict between those ideals. It sounds like the conflict is entirely in the relationship of the people in this situation - cosleeping is just the issue they're fighting about, but it's not the real issue. The real issue is the fighting.


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## Barb36 (Mar 19, 2006)

I agree with what you've said about the family bed being a joint decision. But sometimes it isn't in the beginning. It sounds like in this situation, the mothers want it and the fathers don't. Since the mothers are doing the majority of the work in these early months, mom wins out. I can't imagine a husband insisting on having the mother get out of bed numerous times a night when she's rather just roll over and nurse that baby.

I still really don't think that your worries about these guys being involved as parents is an issue in this particular situation. I think they just don't want to have their beds turned upside down with a newborn...I can understand that but it is often what is done to make life a little easier on the mom and the baby. Maybe these guys should invest in some good ear plugs or sleep in another room from time to time.


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## marlee (Aug 29, 2005)

I haven't read this whole thread but just wanted to share our situation.
Dh started napping with dd in the day and he got hooked on co-sleeping that way. Now he is a strong advocate for co-sleeping and room sharing.


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## AmyC (Jul 3, 2005)

I think my husband has more of a "problem" with co-sleeping than I do (our child is a toddler, now, nearing three) and it's because of the physical challenges. It is harder on him (than on me) to have his sleep interrupted. I often will have more of our daughter's head oriented toward me, and he'll have her feet. She is not a kicker, particularly, nor does she typically sleep sideways, but she does sometimes push her feet into his abdomen. Anyway, if she wakes/stirs with the upset of a dream or some disturbance, it tends to wake him completely. And he's less able to fall back asleep immediately than I am. And he is less physically resilient than I am, generally.

When our daughter was a newborn, and just a young baby (nursing often), he almost always woke when she'd nurse. Partly because I am not super-quiet (when not fully awake; I'd talk, or make noise) and partly because he is a lighter sleeper. He had to wake me up to nurse the baby more than once, for example.

So I'd guess that he's a bit less _enthusiastic_ about the prospect of co-sleeping than I am, but we both accept that this is the way we chose to raise our daughter. We didn't even buy a crib, though we did have a pack-n-play and thought we'd see what we ended up doing/using before investing in a crib.

We did arrive at the decision together, I think, in the sense that I shared things with him as my knowledge/opinion was developing. My bro and SIL coslept, and so I read a little bit about it (assuming it was somehow "bad") way before we were having our own baby, and our sense of it evolved together.

He does agree that, despite the logistical difficulties, it has been very good for her and for us. My point has been to convey that it's not all warm fuzzies in the day-to-day scheme, nor has it ever been (for us.) It's been great, but it's been hard. And harder on him.

Now...

Reading your first post, and the reasons these fathers give for their negative feelings, I can understand why people here posted what they did. When a man is "feeling less important than the baby," there's not going to be a whole lot of sympathy for his position. His needs and wants ARE less important (as are the mother's, as several pointed out.)

It seems like a mix of things....feeling less important, feeling unimportant (to the wife.) Also feeling like his opinion doesn't count (or not as much as the mother's), which is a different thing. I agree that these men should clarify (through soul-searching) why they are resistant to co-sleeping. No meaningful discussion can come without that effort. Are they wanting an equal say in parenting decisions, or are they wanting their wishes (for themselves) to be as important a priority as what is best for the baby? Honestly.

Also, it's not a surprise that their wives would react defensively. Particularly since we don't know how the issue was broached.

I agree that it's not good for one partner to feel resentful or shut-out, but I don't agree that that means they _have_ to change their arrangement "for the good of the child." That argument can be used for so many things, including the "happy mother" is more important to a baby than having her breastmilk, or when a man is resentful about breastfeeding, the "health" of their marriage is more important than what food the baby receives. (I'm just saying...This logic feels roughly parallel to me.)

That's not to say that there cannot be change as a result of discussion, but what is going to make him/them feel like they've "been a part of" the decision? If they stop co-sleeping? That's not fair! Are they going to remain resentful if they share their discomfort and the baby is still in the bed with them? Like nothing "happened"? Only one result (change) will make them feel okay/heard? Where does that leave their partners?

I would agree that there probably are a lot of things at work here. If it's the issue of intimacy, I'd wager that _many_ new mothers are too tired/too "touched out" to be very interested in sex, whether they are co-sleeping or not. To some extent the reduced interest is biological (hormonal, a result of lactation, etc.) and to some extent it's simple exhaustion.

As far as your question about how to talk to these fathers....

I'd say that helping the men to understand why their partners would feel defensive about this issue is a key piece. Contextualize her fierce attachment, (and how that's actually a gift to his baby), and why she reacts when she feels threatened or pressured. Another useful thing would be to clarify all the reasons that a woman would _want_ to co-sleep, and how it benefits her (specifically how it supports the nursing relationship and how the proximity actually helps to establish a good supply--and how many people struggle with this issue, end up supplementing, etc.) and helps her to be more rested/able to care for the baby during the waking hours, as well as how it benefits the baby (attachment, SIDS) and benefits the development of attachment between father and baby.

You could seek to couch it in a way that does not sound like an ambush, or like you're taking "her side." It's obvious you're sympathetic to the guys, anyway. But if you want to help, perhaps offering some information to enlighten their wives' position would do just that.

People here have made excellent points about the percentages involved in nighttime parenting...who is doing the work, who "gets the say"? I wouldn't make the point that they logically shouldn't have a say, but I'd make the point that it's a tremendous trade-off if they DO put the baby in a different bed, and that the wife should not have to shoulder the extra legwork. If the complaint is that their sleep is interrupted, they should mull over the fact that putting the baby somewhere else is not going to change that, and it's not fair for them to expect their wives to shoulder the burden of going to the baby when _they're_ the ones asking for the change.

You could recommend that they come up with a viable plan, basically what a previous poster laid out, in how they'd shoulder the extra legwork involved if she'd agree to try out a different nighttime scenario. The point would be helping him to see what that change would entail (for him.)

Reading about these conflicts, I wish these people could read Penelope Leach's _The First Six Months: Getting Together With Your Baby_. (Didn't double check the title, but I think that's it.) Not just for the segment on fathering (and adjusting to a new baby, and to the fact that you'd best get over the idea of waiting for things to "get back to normal"), but also for the sensitive portrayal of what a mother's bonding experience is like.

If these guys can understand what is involved, emotionally/hormonally/physically/spiritually/biologically, in their wives' nurturing of their children, perhaps they could be in a different space as far as nurturing their wives, supporting that mother-child bond. Even just in understanding why she would react defensively when feeling threatened by his dissatisfaction or objections.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Squirrelly* 
Yikes!!

I never intended for this to be so...um...zesty, and for that, I'm sorry. I just wish both mothers and fathers would be equal partners in raising a kid, but I doubt that will ever happen..


I think this is one issue, and there are very few, where the parents are not equal. The father is not up all night breastfeeding. The baby is really not being put first, as I see it, but the breastfeeding mother. When my dh complained a bit, I told him (truthfully, not just being sarcastic) that if he was willing to get up with the baby 50% of the time to bottle feed bm to the baby, then he could have 50% of the say. But a sleeping husband does not get to vote on where I breastfeed.


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## AmyC (Jul 3, 2005)

I really liked these comments, too.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Demeter9* 

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Squirrelly*
Wanting the best for your child is only natural. To exclude your husband in the raising of your child is almost spiteful, in my very humble opinion.

*He's excluding himself.*

When one is expected to function in a situation in where there is no "right" answer, something has to give.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Barb36* 
And I have to say again that the whole issue of joint decision making and being a team about parenting is not the issue here. *These moms are just trying to get through the nights with as much sleep and as little stress as possible.* This is not really a parenting issue in the way you are implying.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Barb36* 
I agree with what you've said about the family bed being a joint decision. But sometimes it isn't in the beginning. It sounds like in this situation, the mothers want it and the fathers don't. Since the mothers are doing the majority of the work in these early months, mom wins out. I can't imagine a husband insisting on having the mother get out of bed numerous times a night when she's rather just roll over and nurse that baby.

*I think they just don't want to have their beds turned upside down with a newborn...*I can understand that but it is often what is done to make life a little easier on the mom and the baby. Maybe these guys should invest in some good ear plugs or sleep in another room from time to time.


Demeter9 also makes a very good point about the diminishing returns if he is looking for more physical intimacy, and thinks that having his wife get up to tend to night feedings is going to impact that favorably. And also that he'll still end up feeling "martyred and sorry for himself that his wife isn't meeting his needs."

Maybe helping to make the point that it's unsatisfactory to them that their beds _are_ "turned upside down" with a newborn, but the alternatives are not satisfactory, in the sense that it is _still_ going to be affecting them (if they shoulder their part of the burden, as they should.) The issue is not so much having a say in parenting decisions, but coming to terms with what they've done and how it (the change) reaches into every area of their lives. They've had a baby.


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## Barb36 (Mar 19, 2006)

:

I think this is the bottom line for these friends of yours. I agree with everything else said about striking a real dialogue about the underlying issues here and exploring all sides of parenting decisions. But right now, sleep is a precious thing and a 5 month old nurses quite a bit at night. Mothers have to do whatever they can to maximize their sleep and often cosleeping is the best way to do this.

I think focusing on how well these couples are coparenting is not really the issue here. The men are not going through a hormonal upheaval and really need to rally behind their wives during this incredibly challenging time. When everyone is getting adequate sleep and the hormones are not wilding raging and the adjustment process is not so new, they can concern themselves with navigating their discussions and decisions around raising their children. And by then, it might not present much of a problem for them.


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## Squirrelly (Mar 24, 2005)

I sent this thread to two of the couples I talked about. All of your comments have been so insightful--I have to admit that I didn't see all the angles of this issue, and I feel a bit more educated!









Regarding our friends, each has some issue that I think could contribute to the problem. One bottle feeds, two breastfeed, and the bottle feeding mom is the most adamant about co-sleeping. Perhaps she wants a kind of closeness she doesn't get with feeding her son.

Anyway, after reading all the comments here, I feel ready to discuss this stuff like crazy with our friends! You've all said things I could not understand or articulate, but after reading what each of you said, I thought, "Yeah! Good point!"

I think I projected myself and my father onto this issue without realizing it, and that certainly clouded my judgment. I apologize, and I thank you again for the great input. I lurk here a lot, and I always find a heck of a lot of wisdom!









Before I sign off, I shall eat a huge slice of humble pie, for my husband and I let our dogs sleep in our bed with us. They don't move much and tend to be quiet, but there it is. Our friends bring this up when co-sleeping is discussed, and I just have no excuse!


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## papa de angel (Sep 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Ya know what? Dad's wants ARE second to baby's needs. So are mom's. That's part of being a parent. Any man who isn't ready to face that, isn't ready to be a dad. I think it's largely a maturity issue.

-Angela

I agree, that's the bottom line.

FWIW, I don't feel like I "need" intimacy with DW any less than before DD was born, but my heart just opened up so much when she came into this world that I feel there's nothing I wouldn't sacrifice for her, and can't imagine it any other way.


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Squirrelly* 
Some of my husband's friends have talked to their wives about this, and were yelled at--one had to stay at our house for a few days.

That sounds like a problem in the marriage that goes way, way beyond co-sleeping. I think if you have to spend "a few nights" at a friends because you talked to your spouse (about anything), blaming co-sleeping is just a red herring. I mean, how good could the relationship be/have been if you have to move out?

Co-sleeping is not, IMO, inherently bad for marriage. Lots of people do it and love it and love the benefits for their family. I think your question has little to do with sleeping arrangements and everything to do with communication problems.


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## NC EcoMaMa (Jun 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tamagotchi* 
Squirrelly, I don't understand what you mean by saying that cosleeping is "marginalizing" fathers. Cosleeping gives fathers a chance to be close to baby all night, just like it does with mothers. Fathers can cuddle with the baby and take over some of the night time parenting. From watching my DH interact with our child, it's clear to me that cosleeping has helped him to feel close and involved.

Maybe there is something else going on in your friends' marriages. Are the husbands' complaints really about sex? Or do the husbands feel that they are not getting enough attention from their wives and the babies are getting all the attention? A lot of times that's what husbands mean when they complain about cosleeping.

My husbands needs were not met until a year after having Ronnie. I did have 5 breast surgeries and a long recovery from the birth.
He adores co-sleeping and we gave away our crib.

Although when we do have sex, a bed is the last place I think of. LOL


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## Pynki (Aug 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
See, there are some dads who hate diaper changes too- so? Goes with the territory. Baby NEEDS to be with mom- day and night- simple biology. If dad doesn't want baby to breastfeed does he get to veto that too?

-Angela

I agree

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Squirrelly* 
I sent this thread to two of the couples I talked about. All of your comments have been so insightful--I have to admit that I didn't see all the angles of this issue, and I feel a bit more educated!










Regarding our friends, each has some issue that I think could contribute to the problem. One bottle feeds, two breastfeed, and the bottle feeding mom is the most adamant about co-sleeping. Perhaps she wants a kind of closeness she doesn't get with feeding her son.

Anyway, after reading all the comments here, I feel ready to discuss this stuff like crazy with our friends! You've all said things I could not understand or articulate, but after reading what each of you said, I thought, "Yeah! Good point!"

I think I projected myself and my father onto this issue without realizing it, and that certainly clouded my judgment. I apologize, and I thank you again for the great input. I lurk here a lot, and I always find a heck of a lot of wisdom!









Before I sign off, I shall eat a huge slice of humble pie, for my husband and I let our dogs sleep in our bed with us. They don't move much and tend to be quiet, but there it is. Our friends bring this up when co-sleeping is discussed, and I just have no excuse!









HOnestly this is what kills me. Many people don't think twice about letting their pets sleep with them for comfort, but the idea of their helpless, defenseless infant sleeping with them in some how un natural?


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## SMoody (Dec 22, 2006)

The one thing we actually said we are not going to do is bring baby into the bed with us. Hubby was going to help with nighttime feeds by burping baby ect. Her cot was set up right next to me. He however fell asleep with baby on him as he was so tired.

To make a long story short. After we moved with her as a 6 week old we just decided to let her sleep in our bed as she use to wake up screaming in the new place and she like never ever cried unless she had pain.

I did ask hubby what he thinks and he told me it is okay until she is 6 months. When 6 months came we discussed it and he said he is fine until she is a year. A year came the other day and we talked and he said it is totally fine with him as she gets really anxious if she is away from me at night and he knows it is the only way I can get sleep. He also knows I am a real worry wart and wont be able to sleep at all. He is totally against CIO.

Now I know I might get stoned here for this. But I feel no matter who is the primary caregiver. There is two parents for a child. And it is of the upmost importance to never ever let your partner feel that his feelings arent important at all. We have discussions about everything of childcare. When something new comes up that we havent dealt with we have a conversation about it as soon as we can.

I will just sit down with my partner and ask him how he feels how we are doing so far. He can bring up anything he wants. Now I know sometimes our feelings get hurt as if it is something personal. But just hear him out. It might not be what he says directly. If it is that he doesnt get some time alone with you. Then arrange some time. We do it when baby is taking a nap. She is totally fine taking naps by herself during the day.

Sometimes just do something special for him. I am sure he will come around then. They just want to feel part of the family. And it is their right to feel like that.


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## Squirrelly (Mar 24, 2005)

I think that's healthy--to let your husband air anything he may feel.

Also, I realize that having my dogs sleep with me is hypocritical. I've also had my nephews sleep in my bed with me, although that's hardly enough experience. My dogs are very quiet and don't move once they've found a spot (they're Whippets, if anyone is interested). They are hardly akin to other dogs or children. Children develop and grow, whereas, despite what my dogs tell me, they stay at a sort of infinite state of dorkitude. My nephews, I have found first hand, and from their mothers, develop into kicking, screaming, writhing, yelling beings. It's a good thing that they're darned cute!

Mainly what I want is to be able to discuss this with our friends. I've taken the men's side because I felt it hadn't been heard--I want to be able to discuss this without sounding as if my husband and I are taking sides. The guys I've mentioned really do feel lost, and I did send them this thread and/or spoke with them about what was said. I think that listening to the guy, regardless of your opinion, would make a big difference. Just letting him know that you care about what he thinks would help. That's what I've gleaned from my hubbies' friends!


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## noahs_mommie (Jun 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Squirrelly* 
I sent this thread to two of the couples I talked about. All of your comments have been so insightful--I have to admit that I didn't see all the angles of this issue, and I feel a bit more educated!









Regarding our friends, each has some issue that I think could contribute to the problem. One bottle feeds, two breastfeed, and the bottle feeding mom is the most adamant about co-sleeping. Perhaps she wants a kind of closeness she doesn't get with feeding her son.

Anyway, after reading all the comments here, I feel ready to discuss this stuff like crazy with our friends! You've all said things I could not understand or articulate, but after reading what each of you said, I thought, "Yeah! Good point!"

I think I projected myself and my father onto this issue without realizing it, and that certainly clouded my judgment. I apologize, and I thank you again for the great input. I lurk here a lot, and I always find a heck of a lot of wisdom!









Before I sign off, I shall eat a huge slice of humble pie, for my husband and I let our dogs sleep in our bed with us. They don't move much and tend to be quiet, but there it is. Our friends bring this up when co-sleeping is discussed, and I just have no excuse!


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## mamabear&babybear (Dec 20, 2004)

I just wanted to share my experience because my dh us not a big fan of cosleeping anyway here it is:

I let my dh talk me out of cosleeping with dd.







At 6 months old I was getting less than 4 hours of sleep 20 minutes at a time. It was torture. I decided that I didn't care what dh thought I was going to cosleep. After a few weeks dh and I discussed it. He still didn't like cosleeping but was willing to keep going because he loved having a happy, well rested wife and baby. A great compromise was to side car the crib so we still had our space and he didn't sleep next to dd (it made him nervous which caused him to not sleep well). We discussed moving dd out of our bed every 3-6 months and consistently came up with the decision to keep going because we liked how much sleep we were all getting. We moved her to her own bed in September and she loves having her own bed now. We are expecting #2 in February and dh is actually excited to cosleep from the beginning because he knows that we will all sleep better that way. Again, he still isn't sold on the idea but is sold on getting more sleep.
I agree that the father's feelings should be heard and taken into consideration, but I think this particular decision is ultimately the mamas.
I also agree with some of the pps. It seems like these couples might have larger issues and cosleeping is the outlet.
I hope they find some peace!


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## Tattiana (Feb 17, 2006)

Co-sleeping has been difficult here, but DH and I have talked and because DH knows that I do the nighttime parenting, and because DD does not sleep well, we both agree that we are doing the right thing for her. We are BOTH looking forward to having the one place in the house that we can be alone back. I know that may sound harsh to some, but I feel that intimacy is a very real need that seems to be next to impossible in our current situation. It has been hard, but communication has helped. I, also, remind myself and DH how they grow so very quickly and it won't even be an issue in time.
I do think that we do have to be sensitive to our DHs feelings. I didn't realize how hard it had been for DH until some things happened that really got my attention. It wasn't necessarily the co-sleeping in itself, it's more the fact that I am exhausted and have a hard time being what I need to be for the rest of my family because she is a terrible sleeper and when she doesn't wake up the minute we have a chance to have sex (which happens frequently), we have to be careful and quiet pausing at every sigh. What a great sex life.


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## clavicula (Apr 10, 2005)

no idea. dh was the biggest mainstream dad ever, now he is at least as chrunchy as me. he loves sleeping with our dd and me, and we both think this is the best thing ever. our marriage became stronger i swear!

...but if a dad doesn't think this way...i have no clue what to do.


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## Flower of Bliss (Jun 13, 2006)

My DH was initially uncomfortable with the idea of co-sleeping. When I was pg, I had several things that were non-negotiable: co-sleeping, BF, no circ, and a natural birth. All of these are things that his family did not do. I started discussing them early on. BF was no issue; he was all for it. No circ was no issue - just the thought of it upsets him and he was circed. The natural birth was more about me. He didn't fight it. After taking a Bradley class with me, he was very supportive of it (to the point that I started to worry that I'd fail and upset/disappoint him







). Co-sleeping took a bit of work... but I gave him articles to read, and discussed it ad nauseum. He is now a strong proponent of co-sleeping and wouldn't dream of allowing me to change it (if I were so inclined). I personally feel that his sexual "needs" aren't being met, but that is more due to the residual pain from my 4th degree tear (which makes sex excruciating














: ).

There are topics that I was less certain about initially - CD and vax come to mind. We discussed these together. I was sure that we'd use sposies. After doing barely any real research, I told him I really wanted to CD, what did he think? I showed him the research. He was 100% in agreement







: He now does almost all of the diaper laundry







and tells people how great cloth is







We're still researching vax, but currently we're not doing them. In fact, I'd have to approach him with wanting to do a certain vax and explain why







.

He is getting some disapproval from his family (less than I expected). He defends OUR decisions....

I guess this has gotten quite long and off topic. More or less what I am saying is that some things are non-negotiable. I'm glad that I knew that ahead of time, recognised that DH (and his family) would disagree, and held the discussions before DD was born. Our marriage is stronger now than it was before pregnancy.


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## noahs_mommie (Jun 24, 2006)

How did things turn out?


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## ~Nikki~ (Aug 4, 2004)

There are many comprimises available, when both parents aren't agreeable about co-sleeping. Baby can snooze in a side-car or a crib in the room, for example. Or the parents can do what we ended up doing. I was getting aggrivated with co-sleeping when my daughter was about 14 months old, because she was such a wiggle-worm and was a marathon nurser. If she was near my breasts, she HAD to nurse.non.stop., and I couldn't sleep while she was nursing, for some reason. So we'd start out the night by having her in her own bed. I'd put her to sleep, and then DH and I would climb into bed. We'd have a bit of alone time, and then when DD woke for her nightly feeding, DH would go fetch her and bring her into our bed, where she would spend the rest of the night.

I've always beleived that people are meant to cosleep. Not just kids, but people. I remember growing up, the only time I slept securely was during a period of time when I had to share a bed with my sister. I was an insomniac the rest of the time. It wasn't until I moved in with a boyfriend, and we started sharing a bed, that my insomnia was "cured." If DH is gone overnight, I can't sleep if I'm in an empty bed. I've talked to several friends who feel the same way. Empty bed = no sleep. Warm bodies = cozy sleep time. Most people wouldn't deny their spouse the warm coziness of cosleeping with eachother....why deny a child?


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## MamaChicken (Aug 21, 2006)

I guess the only thing I have to add is a thought about if the situation was turned around. When I was PG with #1, I was pretty mainstream. I believed in extended BF, but that was it. DH talked about co-sleeping before DS was born, but it made me uncomfortable. I didn't really know why, it was just something I couldn't put into words. I did all of the night-time parenting, so he let me have my way at first even though DS only slept for 30-45 minutes at a time. After about 4 months, I was a wreck- depression, sleep deprivation, cranky, and not in the mood for anything intimate with him - even cuddling or kissing. So he put his foot down, the best thing for us, as a family, was for DS to share our bed and for me to learn to nurse him laying down. I tried pulling rank - I'm the one up, so it gets to be my decision - but since I really couldn't put a reason to resisting, I agreed to try it for a week or so. We never turned back.

At 8yo, DS still likes to be snuggled to sleep. I also regained my sanity, especially since he didn't start sleeping more than 3 hours solid until he started school.

Also, by the logic presented by some PP, since my DH became a SAHD 6 years ago he now does more than 50% of the active parenting. There is very little nightime parenting to be done, and I am at work most of the day. So does that mean I should get NO say in the choices on daytime parenting? I find that somewhat insulting, that I should have no input simply because I am not the one doing the work.

We have discussions on every decision, even if DH has to call me at work. I rarely second-guess him, simply because he IS the one there. But if there is something that either of us feels very strongly about we talk it out. We explain our reasons and logic, show each other the research, in short we work together. We never discount the feelings or opinions of the other just because one of thinks it is the "right" thing to do.

DS gets consistancy and DH and I get harmony and a strong marriage.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaChicken* 
I guess the only thing I have to add is a thought about if the situation was turned around. When I was PG with #1, I was pretty mainstream. I believed in extended BF, but that was it. DH talked about co-sleeping before DS was born, but it made me uncomfortable. I didn't really know why, it was just something I couldn't put into words. I did all of the night-time parenting, so he let me have my way at first even though DS only slept for 30-45 minutes at a time. After about 4 months, I was a wreck- depression, sleep deprivation, cranky, and not in the mood for anything intimate with him - even cuddling or kissing. So he put his foot down, the best thing for us, as a family, was for DS to share our bed and for me to learn to nurse him laying down. I tried pulling rank - I'm the one up, so it gets to be my decision - but since I really couldn't put a reason to resisting, I agreed to try it for a week or so. We never turned back.

At 8yo, DS still likes to be snuggled to sleep. I also regained my sanity, especially since he didn't start sleeping more than 3 hours solid until he started school.

Also, by the logic presented by some PP, since my DH became a SAHD 6 years ago he now does more than 50% of the active parenting. There is very little nightime parenting to be done, and I am at work most of the day. So does that mean I should get NO say in the choices on daytime parenting? I find that somewhat insulting, that I should have no input simply because I am not the one doing the work.

We have discussions on every decision, even if DH has to call me at work. I rarely second-guess him, simply because he IS the one there. But if there is something that either of us feels very strongly about we talk it out. We explain our reasons and logic, show each other the research, in short we work together. We never discount the feelings or opinions of the other just because one of thinks it is the "right" thing to do.

DS gets consistancy and DH and I get harmony and a strong marriage.

I wouldn't say you have no say in the daytime parenting, but less. Dh stayed home one day a week when ds was little and I didn't think if was my place to tell dh what to do in his time with ds. I might say, "I think he is watching a little too much tv," but I'm at work. Dh is the one trying to balance housework, baby care, sanity, so he got the final call.

I'd certainly take dh's opinion on co-sleeping into consideratin, but if I am the one with serious lack of sleep, I get the final call. Anyway, why is it that if I LISTEN to my dh, but don't agree, he assumes I'm not LISTENING?


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Squirrelly* 
Yikes!!

I never intended for this to be so...um...zesty, and for that, I'm sorry. I just wish both mothers and fathers would be equal partners in raising a kid, but I doubt that will ever happen. The friends I first mentioned are just getting a bit touchy about everything, which is why I thought I'd post here.

I really do want to know how to talk to the fathers, since the mothers of these babies I mentioned seem to know what they're doing, but the fathers don't. Does that make more sense? I just want to be able to give good advice, and I'd personally like these guys to be good and involved fathers.

Hi Squirrelly -

I've skimmed your posts - and you are so "right on" on some of these issues I thought that I should jump in this thread to let you know that I totally agree.

2 parents to make a baby. 2 parents to parent the baby. both parents should get a vote - period. And I too have witnessed the mothers who on the one hand "complain" that there husband doesn't help or doesn't do this or doesn't do that --- and then on the other hand I watch the poor guy get critisized about whatever he does do and I watch the mom refuse to let him do a lot of things because he doesn't "do it right" (as though she has the corner on the "do it right" market) blah blah blah . . . .

I think your thread has gotten zesty because it touches on a zesty AP topic - the dad's role with the child. Read Sears - he'll tell you the role is basically nada for the first few years?? I don't agree and I have met others on these boards that also don't agree it makes any kind of sense to cut a father out in those first years (and heartbreaking for the dads who are so wanting to be a care provider)

As to your original post -- We co-sleep with DS - he is 4. I agree with the dad's concerns - it does interfere with their relationship with the wife. In the beginning, when nursing demands are so extreme - having the baby sleep in or out of the bed isn't really going to make a diff one way or another. I mean - the baby has a LOT of night needs and those come first. period. But as the child grows older and older - I found that DS really really did interfere with my relationship with DH. Recently we asked DS to sleep in our room, but on his own mattress. He agreed. And the first night we did that I was bowled over when I realized that I hadn't "touched" DH while sleeping in years! I hadn't snuggled with him while sleeping at all in 4 years. This definitely spilled over into our daytime affection for each other - we used to be quite affectionate - but realized that we hardly ever kiss, hug, hold hands - like we used to. So yes - for us - as time wore on, co-sleeping did interfere with DH and I and I am glad to have him back now!

PS - our triplets show no signs of wanting to co-sleep?? Probably a good thing as I have no earthly idea how we'd all fit. Unless of course I turned my bedroom into a big pile of mattresses. Works for some. Not too appealing to me.


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## tbavrbab (Dec 4, 2006)

My husband was the first to DO cosleeping with our son. It was a survival instinct when our son refused to sleep anywhere else. From the first night he slept with us (usually ON us)

Our daughter has been a little different as we were both rather scared to cosleep because she was so tiny. When she came home from the NICU she was 4 pounds 6 ounces and she slept in a bassinet pushed up next to the bed so all I had to do was reach an arm out to check on her (which I did VERY frequently, and often slept with my arm in the bassinet and me body curled on the edge of the bed next to her). She slept a 6 hours stretch the first night home, and has pretty much continued to have at least one 6 hour stretch unless she's getting ready for a growth spurt. Then I'm lucky to enjoy a 2 hour stretch









We've started moving to her being in bed with us now that she's bigger, though my husband has reservations. He knows she needs to be close to us, but that time in the NICU has made him scared he could hurt her. Something he never worried about with Ryan. In fact he advocated to other dads how easy it was. Perhaps it might help if your husband could discuss the good points of cosleeping with the other dads?

All this is to say we've made a compromise for Adara to sidecar a crib that we never used before so that she can have a space and we can have a space. They will be the same space, but it helped ease my husband's issue.


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## Barb36 (Mar 19, 2006)

I just have to chime in about Dr. Sears. I have The Baby Book and I have always found that he encourages the fathers to be involved so that mama doesn't get totally burned out....I never got the feeling that he talks about the work being on the mama alone for the first year...that would kill me!!


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## Barb36 (Mar 19, 2006)

Also want to add that I think the % of who makes the nighttime decisions is dependent on how difficult nighttime parenting is for the parents. I have friends who can sleep while nursing and don't seem too thrown off by broken sleep for years on end. I, on the other hand, desperately need consolidated sleep so the nighttime nursing is very hard on me. I do it but pay a hefty price. We're commited to doing it for the first year and then will consider night weaning. I have a 4 year old who needs a sane/energetic/positive mama during the day and there are days when I'm anything but that.

There's no right way to do it or to make the decision. It's a very unique process for each family.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Barb36* 
I just have to chime in about Dr. Sears. I have The Baby Book and I have always found that he encourages the fathers to be involved so that mama doesn't get totally burned out....I never got the feeling that he talks about the work being on the mama alone for the first year...that would kill me!!

See below for what I read on the website about the dad's role with the newborn. We can debate it - but it certainly seems to say that the mom is "it" - and the dad's role is stronger once the baby is a toddler. And actually - he really charactizes the dad's role as being unnatural to the dad - for instance, the mom is suppose to have dad hold the baby when he is happy and well rested - to "set dad up for success". And later on he talks about how dad gets more involved as the kids get to 1 or 2 -- but not in a caregiving way - the examples he uses are "going for ice cream or going to the park"? I just disagree . . . .

Here is the link http://www.askdrsears.com/faq/ap2.asp

And I excerpt it here too.

"I don't understand the Attachment Parenting concept. My sister follows your books. I am very concerned about the fact that she will not leave her 7-month-old son with our parents. Do you feel that there should be a bond with grandparents? My parents are very upset about this. I feel for his father, as there is no bond. The mother child bond is very important but what about bonding with family, friends, society? The father has only been with his son once by himself in 7 months!! How does this play out?"

How your sister is raising her infant may seem foreign to you, but she is just doing what comes naturally. This is how this will "play out":

For the first year or two, a child is primarily bonded to his mother. We see this pattern in many animal species, too. I wouldn't be concerned because this plays out very positively. Kids raised this way grow to be very bonded with their parents and out of this grows great confidence as they reach school age. As a result, they are ready to take on the rest of society. Mom and her infant develop a bond that is so strong, it is an instinct for both of them to be together. They learn to read each others subtle cues -- they "tune-in" to each other. Most infants tend to "need" their mommies quite frequently, so it is difficult for mom to be more than a few minutes away. My wife wasn't ready to be away from her baby for the first year and I respected that. Then, later, when our child was a toddler and had some other baby friends, we were able to get away for a quick dinner. Later that year my wife felt more comfortable leaving longer so that we could go out for a movie. When our child was four-years-old, we were able to take a few days away.

Dad's involvement certainly is less during the first 6-9 months, but he should try to spend time holding and rocking the baby. Mom should try to help by letting him hold baby when baby is well rested, and in a good mood. Setting dad up for success like this will help them to develop a good bond. Dad's bond usually is much stronger once the baby is a toddler. Yes, I did feel a little "left-out" when my kids were very young, but as they reached 1-2-years-old, I was able to get more involved. We had fun going for ice cream or to the park.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom* 
Hi Squirrelly -

I've skimmed your posts - and you are so "right on" on some of these issues I thought that I should jump in this thread to let you know that I totally agree.

2 parents to make a baby. 2 parents to parent the baby. both parents should get a vote - period. .

But only 1 mama up at night breastfeeding. . . seriously, if dad wants to get up 50% of the time to bottle feed breastmilk to a baby, to have a monitor next to his pillow so he is the only one who wakes up when the baby stirs in the next room, then he gets 50% of the vote. My dh wasn't willing to do that. I was the only one losing sleep, so my call.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor* 
But only 1 mama up at night breastfeeding. . . seriously, if dad wants to get up 50% of the time to bottle feed breastmilk to a baby, to have a monitor next to his pillow so he is the only one who wakes up when the baby stirs in the next room, then he gets 50% of the vote. My ds wasn't willing to do that. I was the only one losing sleep, so my call.

You should have excerpted the rest of my post? I address that . . .


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## Barb36 (Mar 19, 2006)

TripMom, I understand what you're saying that both parents need to be involved. I don't think Sears is saying that dad shouldn't be involved...in fact, his involvement is critical to a mother's sanity. But, the reality is that young babies do need their moms and often quite frequently (especially if breastfeeding). I would never leave my 7 month old with the grandparents for the very reasons that sears describes in his response. I had that experience of my MIL holding the baby while he screamed...she kept insisting it was gas and that he wasn't hungry. When I finally managed to get him back, he immediately calmed down at the breast. I still look back at that instance and regret that I didn't grab him from her sooner....my body literally ached for him during those moments and my DH did not have that experience. I think what Sears described is a real experience for many mothers.

I guess I have to say that it's often true that a young baby needs his mother most during those first months. She is the source of food and security for him. Dad can do a lot of comforting but ultimately the baby needs his mother to survive (again if b'feeding). And since cosleeping at the beginning is often done because it makes night nursing easier, it seems that the mother should have a bit more say in that decision.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom* 
You should have excerpted the rest of my post? I address that . . .

I still don't see it?







:


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor* 
I still don't see it?







:

Hmm? I say in my post that the baby has so many night needs during the first year that whether they are in the bed or out of the bed will not really increase/decrease the affect on the DH's relationship with the Mom. My point was - these dads need to accept that for a long while the "nights" are the babies. So who cares where they sleep in the beginning - they should have a say -- but its not going to really change anything? But later on . . . .


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be dense







.

I didn't understand the point you were making about the early months.

I don't understand the part about "they should have a say- but it's not really going to change anything. . "


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## Parker'smommy (Sep 12, 2002)

Like some other posters have pointed out, I would point out what the "real scenario" would be if the babe didn't co-sleep and dad had to step up to the plate and help out with the nightime parenting more because NOT co sleeping would be harder on the mom and dad would have to help out.

My dh is so much happier that we are co sleeping more with our second than we did with our first. She has slept with us from day one and he has never slept so GOOD! He tells all of his male friends that their wives should breastfeed and co sleep because it is way easier on him as a dad. He has stepped up even more now as she is older ( almost 2) and I'm pregnant and tired and he sleeps in the middle and takes care of her at night. There is no way he would want her out of our bed and we are working on scenarios on how to cosleep with her AND babe when that happens.

But anyways.....I would tell the dads that it would be only fair to help out more if they don't want babies in their bed. Like what? Going to babe when he/she wakes, bringing babe to mom, putting babe back to sleep after mom is done nursing. See how that one sits....


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

It seems that everyone accepts it as a given that it is easier to co-sleep with a newborn than not. I disagree. I sleep horribly when I am laying next to a baby - I never get deep restorative sleep. I much preferred getting up for feedings and sleeping separately if the baby was OK with that. I mean - you have to get up anyway to change their diaper? I just don't see it as so much better - it was always preferable for me to sleep without the baby right next to me in the bed.

Just thought I'd add that as well - since the thread takes as given that everyone feels "co-sleeping = more sleep"? Not so for me. . . .


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

From an evolutionary point of view, babies and mama's have evolved to sleep together. It significantly decreases sids (when done correctly). It increases the bond between mom and baby, mom's sleep cycles mirror babies, it increase milk supply, etc. Until recently, evolutionarily speaking, babies survival depended on mothers closeness for warmth, for protection. So I think when you mess with this process that has evolved over hundreds and thousands of years, you are bound to run into trouble. As far as father is concerned, yes, his opinions count, but isn't the babies health and safety more of a priority?

As for co-sleeping affecting the husband wife bond, I have not experienced this, I am happy to say. If anything, we are more affectionate during the day since we don't have the night to snuggle as much. I feel that dh's respect for what was best for babe made me feel even more loving towards him.


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## Barb36 (Mar 19, 2006)

TripMom, I agree with you that not everyone sleeps better with the baby in bed with them. That is certainly very true. And I agree with you that a lot of these posts seem to be implying that cosleeping means more sleep for everyone.

I agree with the pp about the evolutionary aspects of baby/mother sleep. But there are a lot of things that evolve (meaning, change) over time and sleep arrangements are among them. I think for a lot of parents, the issue of not getting enough sleep is huge. We don't live in a culture or time where the parents get community support during the early months...they continue to have to work and manage, often on their own, during the day which requires a certain amount of rest. Some moms do very well with very little sleep, but many don't (myself included).

I do cosleep but that's because it provides the best arrangement for all of us...not because I am against cribs or a hardcore advocate for cosleeping.

Again, it's what's best for each individual and the family as a whole. I think we all get so worked up about these issues because we want validation for how we're doing it. I think parenting is one aspect of life that really triggers those defenses. It doesn't do much to help us support one another when we're always trying to defend our choices so that we feel good about them.

This is a bit off topic, but I feel like on these boards when moms are categorized into "ap" and "mainstream" that immediately puts a wedge between us. I seem to fall more into the ap style but that has just been an organic process of finding what sits well with me as a mother. I have a lot of friends who might be considered more "mainstream" and I never think of us with those distinctions. We're all mothers who love our children and are doing what is best for our particular families.

Sorry to rant...I think it's great to debate things but often these sensitive issues turn into debates even when the OP is just looking for feedback/suggestions/ideas. I do like that on babycenter they have a specific debate board so if that's what you want to do it's appropriate.

Ok, enough already from me.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

I was speaking on a biological evolutionary time line. Bioligical evolution does not take place as quickly as things like cultural "evolution". Again, biologically speaking, babies are better equipped to co-sleep than not.

I do agree that what works for the family is certainly important, but I do think that what is best for the baby should be the top priority when making that decision. But I do understand that an extremely exhausted mama who can't parent during the day because of loss of sleep at night is certainly a risk to the baby as well. And I absolutely agree that there needs to be more support within our societies to make this more easily done for mothers and fathers. Cultural evolution usually far out paces biological evolution.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Barb36* 
This is a bit off topic, but I feel like on these boards when moms are categorized into "ap" and "mainstream" that immediately puts a wedge between us. I seem to fall more into the ap style but that has just been an organic process of finding what sits well with me as a mother. I have a lot of friends who might be considered more "mainstream" and I never think of us with those distinctions. We're all mothers who love our children and are doing what is best for our particular families.


MDC is a site particularly for *natural family living and advocates natural solutions to parenting challenges*. So with that in mind, those are the type of responses and parenting styles that are advocated on MDC. I tshould not be surprising than if the majority of responses reflect those views.


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## Barb36 (Mar 19, 2006)

Agreed. I think sleep is affected almost entirely by culture and not biology these days. We wake to go to work, school, etc. We don't go to bed and rise when our bodies tell us that we've had enough sleep. At least not most of us...our sleep is usually dictated by our schedules and not by our bodies natural rhythms.

I also have to say that some babies really do better when they sleep alone. I think this is simply temperment. Some babies need proximity more than others. Some babies wake more when they are near mama and sleep more soundly when they have their space. Yes, biologically there are trends but we human beings are very complex creatures and babies are so different. Anyone with more than one child can usually attest to that.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

True, true!


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## Barb36 (Mar 19, 2006)

Yes, I know about MDC...used to subscribe to the magazine when my first was little. Even though, I wish that we could be more open-minded and less judgemental. I know I'm very judgemental and it's not a quality I find terribly attractive...especially when it comes to judging other mamas. We bring so much to the role of mother (our own childhood, our politics, values, etc.)....I guess it would be nice if even though "ap" is the majority view here (I'm one as well) we could understand that other folks simply can't do it this way for a variety of reasons. A dear friend of mine experienced pretty severe PPD after her first born and it made mothering a newborn extremely difficult and actually quite traumatic for her. I can really understand that experience. It is really hard in our society with little support for parents.

This is getting quite off topic...sorry about that.


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## CrunchyCate (Jul 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn* 
It sounds like the conflict is entirely in the relationship of the people in this situation - cosleeping is just the issue they're fighting about, but it's not the real issue. The real issue is the fighting.









:

My XH and I fought about so many things, but co-sleeping was never one of them (and he's generally a lot less AP than me). DD9 actually outlasted his time in my bed.







I'm lucky that DH loves nothing more than waking up with both girls fighting over who gets to put her head on his chest.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

We only co-sleep because it gives us more sleep. It was not our original plan. . .it was survival!

But, I guess we are off topic. It was the husbands. Actually, I don't remember, did the OP ever tell us the mothers' reasons for wanting to cosleep? I assumed it was to get more sleep--??


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Barb36* 
Yes, I know about MDC...used to subscribe to the magazine when my first was little. Even though, I wish that we could be more open-minded and less judgemental. I know I'm very judgemental and it's not a quality I find terribly attractive...especially when it comes to judging other mamas. We bring so much to the role of mother (our own childhood, our politics, values, etc.)....I guess it would be nice if even though "ap" is the majority view here (I'm one as well) we could understand that other folks simply can't do it this way for a variety of reasons. A dear friend of mine experienced pretty severe PPD after her first born and it made mothering a newborn extremely difficult and actually quite traumatic for her. I can really understand that experience. It is really hard in our society with little support for parents.

This is getting quite off topic...sorry about that.

Yes, if it is putting the baby in danger during the day due to lack of sleep of parents, definately an issue that needs to be addressed. But it doesn't sound like these are the issues that these father's are having with the cosleeping. Sounds like these are issues, not about the health and safety of the babies, but completely about the dhs. In my opinion, that sort of thing should come secondary to the babies health.

As for the PPD, it is a horrible thing to go through. It can be devastating, but there are some with PPD who actually do better sleeping with the babe if they get more rest. Yes, I have experience in this.


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## Barb36 (Mar 19, 2006)

You're right, race_kelly...I had the same experience with PPD and having my baby close to me was a necessity to my sanity...I would have stayed awake worrying all night long if he weren't by my side.

I got way off topic...I really agree with everything you're saying. I just start to feel that we can get a bit one-sided and make it sound as though other, less ap, types of parenting are somehow not as good.

I'm going to blame my tangential thoughts on my current state of massive sleep deprivation!


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Barb36-







I hope you get some rest!


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

After reading this thread, I have to say that I am extremely thankful for my dh. To him, snuggling under a blankie with ds is one of the sweetest parts of his morning. When I leave for work at 6am, and see the two of them in bed together, my heart melts.
(We only parttime co-sleep, since six months, following ds's lead).


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Barb36* 

I also have to say that some babies really do better when they sleep alone. I think this is simply temperment. Some babies need proximity more than others. Some babies wake more when they are near mama and sleep more soundly when they have their space. Yes, biologically there are trends but we human beings are very complex creatures and babies are so different. Anyone with more than one child can usually attest to that.

Very good point. My older DS is a very adamant co-sleeper. My triplets do not like it at all - and prefer to be together in their own room.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Barb36* 

This is a bit off topic, but I feel like on these boards when moms are categorized into "ap" and "mainstream" that immediately puts a wedge between us. I seem to fall more into the ap style but that has just been an organic process of finding what sits well with me as a mother. I have a lot of friends who might be considered more "mainstream" and I never think of us with those distinctions. We're all mothers who love our children and are doing what is best for our particular families.


Well said. And I might add that I think the "core" of AP is an approach to parenting that prioritizes responding to the childs needs. If you have a child who does not care to co-sleep - than it seems to me that one should not force the child to co-sleep. For those who have not had a child who does not care to co-sleep, I am sure this is hard to imagine and the instinct is to assume that the parent is "forcing" this - so not true. Anyway - one of the many problems with the "checklist" approach to AP -- and back to your original OT point - more polarizing of parental styles . . .


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## BibaDiva73 (Nov 17, 2005)

I know that this is a very old post, but dh has been pressuring me to put our 6 month old ds in a crib or bassinet. I'm the one who has been getting up with him and feeding him, changing him since birth and he's been getting most of the sleep. Because of this,I don't think he really has a say. I have been sleeping with the baby in another room since birth and it has been easier on me with breastfeeding. . But he sent me this recent article on how co- sleeping can raise the chances of SIDS http://www.news.com.au/national-news/nsw-act/study-sheds-new-light-on-cot-deaths/story-fnii5s3x-1226647801128#ixzz2U1pmvL5J so he feels justified in his belief. I co- slept with our other two ds now 9 and 7 with no problems at all. It's more old an issue that there isn't as much intimacy- I'm touched out from "on demand" bf, so sending me this article may be out of concern on his part, but there also seem to be ulterior motives behind it. Thoughts anyone on how to convince him that co-sleeping is safe for our 6 month old?


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## Asiago (Jul 1, 2009)

I would look to James McKenna of University Notre Dame for safe co-sleeping research. Good Luck.


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