# Parents of "spirited" children... anyone out there?



## Hokulele (Mar 2, 2005)

I just keep thinking that somewhere there should be a spot specifically for parents of spirited children. I have two girls, 5yo and 2yo. My 5yo is a classic spirited child. When I read the description in Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka, I felt like she was writing about my daughter. I had no idea there were other kids out there like this. (The book was SUCH a relief!)

I know no one IRL who is the parent of a spirited child.

Some days are amazing - I love how much DD1 is a part of her world and how even the tiniest little thing or event can change her whole day. And other days it is enormously frustrating that the tiniest little thing or event can change everything. I am always looking for more ways to help her get through the rough spots, and ways to help me maintain my cool in those moments when I start wishing she was a more mellow kid. And sometimes I just want to commiserate with other parents who have BTDT - those days when I feel like I'm the parent in the group that the other parents are shaking their heads at, thinking "that mom really needs to get control over her kid."

So I'd like to propose a thread to create a community for parents of spritied children. We can swap stories, both good and bad, offer support, give each other book recommendations, etc.

Is anyone in?

(Does such a thread already exsist? If so, please tell me where to find it!)


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## joliebebe (Jul 8, 2006)

Im keen
I have three boys, 4 1/2, 2 1/2 and 5 months.

My eldest is a very bright, quick thinking, 'spirited child.
After months (years!) of denial that he was not alike many children we know, its a relief to begin to accept his nature and not fight it any more.
We initiated some bad habits of control and resistance that we are trying to break and form a more love based approach to 'discipline', if you can call it that 

Some days are great- hes humorous, curious (heaps of why and how questions) energetic and lots of fun to be round. Other days I wish we could go back to bed and start again. He needs constant engagement, when hes engaged hes lovely and all his good qualities come out.

How do other mamas help thier spirited children how to be loving and gentle with siblings?


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Hello mamas. There are threads in parenting about this so I am moving this thread there.


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## Hokulele (Mar 2, 2005)

There must be more mamas of spirited kids out there!!

The sibling thing is tricky! My kids are close in age to your two oldest kids. They just turned 5yo and 2yo. They can fight like the best of them!!

My best days are those when I find ways for DD1 (my spirited one) to be helpful with her little sister. Just little stuff, like if we're in a non-busy parking lot I'll ask her to hold her sister's hand while they cross to the sidewalk. And I'll walk a little behind them so she doesn't feel like I'm on top of her, monitoring every move. This type of thing channels DD1's energy into something she can see is important and useful but also gives her some great positive interaction with her sister. It helps that DD2 totally looks up to her older sister and will willingly hold her hand (did I just jinx myself?)

It also helps that often DD1 can tell what DD2 is saying or what she needs more than I can. The other day DD2 was saying she wanted what sounded like "A cat! A cat!" over and over. I had no idea what it meant until DD2 translated (A "SNACK!").

When that happens I think it strengthens the bond between my girls because they see that they understand each other. I've realized that often if I'm not sure what DD2 wants, DD1 is totally in tune with her and knows (sometimes for obvious reasons, I'm not sitting in the back seat of the car so I haven't noticed that she dropped her fav toy). But if DD1 can feel like she's in tune with her sister it makes her much more likely to get along with her.

About siblings: Any advice on how to balance parental attention to siblings??? I feel like I spend SO much time trying to channel DD1's energy, or dealing with her mood swings, that DD2 gets lost in the shuffle. DD2 is very happy-go-lucky so she doesn't react badly to it. But the inbalance in attention drives me crazy!!


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## Natalie12 (Nov 11, 2005)

I'm subscribing! I have a 5 year old ds and 4 year old dd. They are both active, but the dd is the truly spirited one. She needs so much stimulation and engagement to keep her happy. When she is engaged, she is just the sweetest child. It's just hard to do that all.day.long.

Thankfully my kids are 18 months apart, and play together. When my son goes to school dd is constantly asking me to play with her.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Personally I think all kids are spirited at some point or another. I don't really understand the desire to label a child spirited - isn't that just being a child?

(and yes I understand "spirited" - I have two who are bipolar so they are spirited, and then some! I just don't like the term being used for regular childhood behaviour)


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## Hokulele (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
Personally I think all kids are spirited at some point or another. I don't really understand the desire to label a child spirited - isn't that just being a child?

(and yes I understand "spirited" - I have two who are bipolar so they are spirited, and then some! I just don't like the term being used for regular childhood behaviour)

I guess maybe I should have been more specific. When I say "spirited" I'm not talking about the regular use of the word, I'm refering to it the way it is used by in the book "Raising your Spirited Child" by Kurcinka.

I understand what you are saying - that being spirited is a normal part of childhood. I really hope that all kids _are_ "spirited" in the normal sense of the word.

But what I am looking for a community of parents who have children who fall under Kurcinka's description of spirited. She uses it as a positive way of describing children who otherwise are often referred to in negative ways ("difficult" "strong-willed" etc). "Research shows that spirited kids are wired to be "more"-by temperament, they are more intense, sensitive, perceptive, persistent, and uncomfortable with change than the average child."

I know no one in real life whose child(ren) are as spirited as DD1. She is extreme in all her wonderful, surprising ways. Often the "normal" advice for parenting doesn't work for her. I think parents of similar children might have helpful advice to offer each other!


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## maddymama (Jan 5, 2008)

Me! I'm in this group. DD1 (who just turned 4) is off the chart spirited.... I also have DD2 who just turned a year. I love the RYSC book, it changed my life. I actually continually re-read it. I read it (for about 10-15 minutes) each night, wait a week or two after I finish it, and then start again. Each time I read it, DD1 is at a different stage of development, or something new is an issue, and I get a new way to look at her behavior. It also helps me see her improvement, bc I look at my notes on her behavior prior to trying some of the ideas, and then can see how much better it is now!
One of our hard spots was a year ago when DD2 arrived, it threw DD1 for a huge loop. Now it's much better.
DD1 goes to a montessori school during the school year, but is home with me for the summer. She loves school, and is continually "underchallenged" during the summer with me.... even though I'm working my rear end off trying to continually keep her occupied (mentally and physically). One big hit we had recently was that she has a BAD swimmer's ear infection, so no swimming right now to wear her out. And it's wayyyy toooo hot to take her to the playgrounds... so I'm having trouble wearing out her energy right now. Any ideas? She does start to randomly run laps around the house in the afternoon, but it's not enough.....
~maddymama


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## maddymama (Jan 5, 2008)

Oh, has anyone read _Playful Parenting?_ I keep downloading the sample to my Kindle, but not buying it. Is it a good "companion" to RYSC?
~maddymama


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

I have a spirited, I never realized there was such a thing until I came on here about 2 years ago and started reading and posting about my crazy girl. I was directed to Raising Your Spirited Child after and incident at Home Depot with DD and DH when I was 5 months preggo with #2. Reading that book changed my whole thought process of why and how DD processes and acts on her emotions. I always sat and watched other kids who were at the park, farmer's market, beach etc....and they just would SIT there







Here I was with a CRAZY, running as fast as she could trying to jump in the river toddler who NEVER sat still.

That book really made things better for me, fortunately I do know other kids like her, her cousin and another boy are both very similar. What we found is activities have to be rigorous, like skiing, swimming, running, jumping. She is also VERY dramatic and highly verbal.

Now for us having a second child has been pivotal in DD's development, it actually helped her immensely. Recently Dh and I both went back to work that sent her for a loop and she was horrid again for a few weeks. We've had to adjust how we parent her multiple times. Defend her from relatives who think she has ADHD or something, been judged by people thinking we give her too much sugar(she barely gets any, ever







). I was once accosted in the grocery store when she was a young toddler by an elderly couple for her screeching(they thought she was mentally ill







).

The last year has been much better turning 3 and being more able to articulate her needs has been wonderful and having her brother has made life better in many ways. She is now almost 4 and she has herr days, but her toddler days were like crazy-ville every day, it's not as bad or intense. That could be because I know now what to do when I see this happening or her maturity.

I feel ya mamas.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
Personally I think all kids are spirited at some point or another. I don't really understand the desire to label a child spirited - isn't that just being a child?

(and yes I understand "spirited" - I have two who are bipolar so they are spirited, and then some! I just don't like the term being used for regular childhood behaviour)

My DD is above and beyond the normal "spirited". The book Raising Your Spirited Child has many definitions of spirited, I have a very extroverted spirited little girl, she DEMANDS attention nearly 24/7. It is honestly completely and totally draining at times, she sucks my energy out.

There is a normal amount of being an active child and then there are children in the spirited camp be it introverted or extroverted, their energy exceeds the "norm".


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## Katrinaquerida (Mar 24, 2008)

My boys are both "spirited" too. They do everything twice as fast, twice as loud and twice as intensely as many of their peers. This includes feelings and emotions, concentration and play. I keep buying copies of "Raising your spirited child" to give to their teachers! LOL


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## woodchick (Jan 5, 2007)

I just started reading RYSC tonight and I have honestly been crying- how could she have written about by DD1 10 years before she was born! I don't know any kids like my DD1 and reading the book has been a breath of fresh air. I'm only one section in and already I want everyone who interacts with her to read it so they will stop making fun of the way she acts (in their 'trying to be funny' sort of way).


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## HappilyEvrAfter (Apr 1, 2009)

I have a very spirited 5 yo (getting ready to turn 6).

Those two books helped immensly. I always thought his personality was so accentuated to me because of my introversion/shyness, but he def. hits all the markers...identified by me _and_ his teaching community.

Playful Parenting works WONDERS with him in almost all situations. We had some really, really rough days until I veered from mainstream parenting techniques.
Spirited children just do not conform to "typical" molding techniques!! Lol. ..at least not mine!!

Once I brought this up with his daycare teacher she had a much, much, much easier time of getting him to comply with classroom rules.

Yeah, I think most of his _behavior_ is age just typical, but the way he goes about reconciling consequences and his thought process for deciding to "conform" is certainly attuned to being spirited.
KWIM? Maybe I'm saying it wrong....I hope you get what I mean.


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## springmum (Aug 30, 2008)

My 2 yr old DS is intense, and I knew he was "spirited" early on as an infant. Like others have said, it's not the label that is important as much as how it directs our parenting.

When we are out my DS will happily refuse to eat or inhale 2 bites as his feet are back on the ground to run & play. It's like the world is not enough, he wants MORE! Other kids will happily sit & eat their snack while DS is squirming away asking to play.
Some call him "hyper", but really he has incredible focus.....when he wants. For example, he loves books. He will sit still for us to read books, and he loves to dissect, read along etc. For the most part he'd rather be running, jumping, being dramatic etc.
He is nothing like any kids his age, and other parents notice it - he is way more intense & verbal.

He is actually very polite, and gentle which is wonderful, but his voice volume & energy can make it seem like he's misbehaving.

When he melts....he melts BIG!!

He talks, non-stop, until he closes his eyes to sleep. He wants me to talk with him & play with him all.day.long. He is very social though, so other kid time is important. Transitions to new places/people take time, people often think he's a "clingy mama's boy" (to which I always clarify that he just needs time) while he takes his time assessing the situation before he unleashes his energy.

We do a lot of playful parenting type things. I know that he can't sit still at a library storytime (even though he loves books at home & will sit), or stay still for a craft activity - so I plan our activities differently. I allow for lot's of outdoor time, large energy activities etc. etc. I allow him the time he needs for transitions.

He luckily has a little 3 yr old friend who is very similar so it's nice for their energies to match and watch them explore the world. It also gives us moms some time to swap what works/doesn't for our little bundles of energy (as we are constantly out of our seats trying to keep them safe of course )


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## heidirk (Oct 19, 2007)

Yup. I'm in.


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## HappilyEvrAfter (Apr 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *springmum* 
It's like the world is not enough, he wants MORE!
Some call him "hyper", but really he has incredible focus.....when he wants.

He is nothing like any kids his age, and other parents notice it - he is way more intense & verbal.

He is actually very polite, and gentle which is wonderful, but his voice volume & energy can make it seem like he's misbehaving.

When he melts....he melts BIG!!

He talks, non-stop, until he closes his eyes to sleep. He wants me to talk with him & play with him all.day.long.


YES!! These points exactly!!









I try to keep the positives in mind. Geez, when this kid is determined to do something his is AMAZING!


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## seriosa (Apr 2, 2009)

I have not read these books, but I always find myself having to justify my son's behaviour. No, he will not sit still at school, please let him kneel on the chair, slouch over the desk, get up 15 times to sharpen his pencil. It will be less disrupting than calling him to order every other minute. And his schoolwork is above par if you let him be. He will be running through the supermarket aisles, but productively, he fetches things for me







. He talks all the time, so fast he is sometimes hard to follow. He sings, makes sounds, talks to himself all the time. He is a 7yo rapper with a surreal sense of humour so his constant chatter is often very entertaining.

The saddest thing is his frustration at not getting along with most other children. He is hugely sociable, but I see that he wears other kids out with his energy and restlessness and talkativeness and, weak point, his touchiness. Paradoxically he gets along much better with adults - he is engaging and bright and conversational and really interested in building relationships. But adults are only fun for talking to, to play you need other children.

I have told him his engine runs at 1000 rpm while most other people are running at 100, it is an image that apeals to him and helps him make peace with why everyone is always telling him to calm down, be still, be quiet.

We are in the process of learning some self control. Longer stretches of sitting at his place in school or at mealtimes. Please do not answer all the questions the teacher asks, leave some for the other kids as well. Keep to your turn. Don't interrupt. That sort of thing.

What I hate is when people tell him he is "too" this or that. Too talkative. Too agitated. Too boisterous. I stress to him that he is just fine the way he is, he needs awareness and consideration to accomodate the "slower" people around him, but there is nothing in him that needs changing.


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## littlelentils (Feb 15, 2007)

it didnt occur to me that my dd was spirited until i started noticing differences in other babies as she got older. i thought ALL babies needed to be held most of the time. and that ALL babies nursed as frequently as she did.. it wasnt until she was one or so did someone mention to me about her being "spirited."

from about 2 months on, she has always wanted to be the life of the party. she is SO much fun. she is very extroverted and definitely requires lots of attention. fortunately, she is pretty good at playing by herself at times. but ive given up on library story times or anything that "forces" her to be still and quiet.

right now im struggling with bedtime, her being an extremely picky eater, and toliet training. she will be 3 soon and naturally she screams 'no' every time i try to get her to sit on the potty seat. ive tried (almost) EVERYTHING and it doesnt work. i cant get her to sit there for the life of me. any suggestions from you experienced parents??


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## ariatrance (Feb 12, 2009)

Hello. My name is Amanda. I am a spirited mom to a spirited 3 year old son and a spirited 1 year old daughter. I am pooped!









I have started Raising Your Spirited Child but have not finished it. A few months ago, when I had the book suggested to me, I got lost in my own 'mental drama' and couldn't focus on reading it in order to help my kids. So now I have it on hold at the library and plan to read it through this time.

I am just starting to get a handle on what a daily schedule needs to look like for these two. We have to be at a playground/playdate within 2 hours of waking up or the whole day is shot. Both must spend at least 2 hours, if not 4, physically releasing their energy before the day can 'truly' start. I am (still) learning how to squeeze all of the stuff I was doing before into a 4-5 hour day. However, having spent a good deal of energy, both kids respond beautifully for the rest of the day. We can be such a team, errands go smoothly, playtime at home goes smoothly, everyone is nicer to each other, everyone gets to the potty on time, etc. All this because the excess energy is gone and they (and I) can collect our minds and focus on the task at hand.

It is so exhausting, especially since I am an introverted, spirited person. Most of my excess energy is channeled into mental and emotional, rather than physical, outlets. I also am trying to recover from adrenal fatigue and that is a slow process.

Anyway. I too have no contacts with spirited children. It is so hard to be the only one at playdates having to actually interact and run after my children. That doesn't sound good, but I think you know what I mean.







Just last week, a mother was trying to commiserate with me about how energetic her kids were - these kids who could be pushed around in a stroller for an hour (exercise walk) and then go home to an hour nap. Yeah.....that's not energetic in my book.







I did discover, though, that my kids cannot sit in the stroller for an hour first thing in the morning, so I'm trying to figure out how to get in some serious exercise time when I'm with the kids all day, every day. (Any suggestions?)

I have found that 1-2-3 works well for G. I started out by telling him, before counting, that if he didn't complete the task by the time I counted to 3, then I would help him finish. (This isn't punitive, just me helping him get it done, like putting his shorts on.) Because he is in a do-it-myself stage, this works wonders! He races to get the task done before 3 and just giggles the whole time.







Now, I don't really have to explain anymore. I state the task I would like him to do and if he starts dawdling or gets distracted, I say "1." Make sense??

I need to stop writing now and go to bed. So nice to find others out there!


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## springmum (Aug 30, 2008)

I don't have advice for the potty training







We got lucky in our process and my 2 yr old was out of diapers before 2, so we used a different strategy (I can still explain it if it would be helpful?)

I'm having a tough time with the "ants in his pants" syndrome & eating. He constantly has to be moving/standing (as you all are used to I'm sure) For activities it's not such a big deal, since I just work standing/moving into it (e.g allowed to stand for arts/crafts, more dramatic activities etc.)
Like others I've given up on story time for now. DS just can't sit for it at all - he wants to stand right in front of the book and excitedly talk about what he sees!!!
Where my trouble comes in is for eating times. We have always had a "sit to eat" structure, but it's becoming increasingly more difficult for him to sit. He squirms, wants to leave, wants to stand etc. It's not that he's not hungry - he will inhale and stuff his cheeks so he can get up & try to get away. While at home, he is still willing to sit in his high chair for dinner, so that works. For whatever reason he only wants to eat snacks/lunch/breakfast at his kids table or the big table - which is fine, except for the constant movement.
Telling him if he leaves the food is gone doesn't work - he doesn't love food that much, then melts down in an hour b/c he's hungry.

It's 10 times harder when we're out b/c he is so interested in the new place that he can't sit to eat for more than 10 seconds even when he's really hungry. He spilled two lunches at a picnic the other day b/c he kept trying to get up and run. We can be eating with a group of 2 year olds for a meal, and he is the only one with this issue, so he clearly stands out! I usually resort to spending time letting him eat in his carseat before we drive away.

How does everyone else do meal times & movement needs?
Does anyone else have a child that can't eat when their out b/c they're so interested in where they are? How do you manage?


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## chrfath (Jun 5, 2003)

Our second DS is a spirited child. He is described as intense many times. He is very verbal 5 to 7 word sentences already and doesn't really stop moving. He can have had no nap, been up since 6am and will be jumping on the bed at 7pm. Go, go, go, he is very exhausting for me.

I need to check the book out from the library and read it again. I think my DD may fit some, but she has down syndrome so who knows with her.









As for the eating...I'm not sure how old your DS is. Mine eats lots of small snacks during the day. He is always done before everyone else. I don't push him to stay at the table. I just let the boy graze.


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## welsh (Feb 14, 2007)

nak
I needed to find this thread today.
I have a highly spirited 3 yr old DS.
He is my best buddy usually as we are both extraverts living abroad and love to see new things and make friends. Neither of us like being indoors so we're always out doing something.









However....3 weeks ago I gave birth to DD and it would seem like I am now Public Enemy #1.
When he's melting down right now (multiple times per day) his anger is directed at me, 'I don't want you Mummy', finger pointing, hitting me, not listening to anything I say.
It is breaking my heart and I'm not coping well. The situation is exacerbated by the fact that we came home from overseas for me to have the baby in mid May and DH only joined us when DD was born. We are staying with the in-laws too so my parenting is really under the microscope.
DS's world has been turned upside down in so many ways









I adore DD but I'm questioning already whether we should've had a 2nd child and also whether I'll be able to nurse DD for as long as DS (26 mos).

Thanks for listening!


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chrfath* 
Our second DS is a spirited child. He is described as intense many times. He is very verbal 5 to 7 word sentences already and doesn't really stop moving. He can have had no nap, been up since 6am and will be jumping on the bed at 7pm. Go, go, go, he is very exhausting for me.

I need to check the book out from the library and read it again. I think my DD may fit some, but she has down syndrome so who knows with her.










Your DS sounds like my DD, honestly the less sleep she has the more ramped up she gets. When she's exhausted she gets louder, crazier and much more apt to hurt herself. When/if she she naps(which I have to coerce her with a drive in the car







) she's better.

That book does go into the fact that children with downs can be spirited also. My friend has a son who has downs and he may very well be spirited, for him it didn't appear until recently when he turned 3, but now it seems he's ramping up and being more difficult for her, maybe I should suggest the book to her.


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## MissNo (Jul 24, 2009)

Oh thank you! I am so glad this post is here.

Mom to a spirited 4.5 year old, and I am struggling. No sleep, no peace, some days I want to hang it up! Lately, with no summer camp or swimming lessons and the weather close to unbearable, my oldest is melting down. Mommy needs a break!


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## Hokulele (Mar 2, 2005)

Oh yay!









I am feeling the MDC love right now. I just knew you other mamas of spirited kids were out there, I just had to find you. I've been away from MDC for a couple days but plan to read through all these posts and comment. Just reading all your descriptions of your kids really keeps me sane. Since I don't know anyone IRL who has a child like this, it helps me get my head on straight to read that there ARE others out there.

I haven't even finished RYSC, but I plan to very soon. And then I want to read it again right away! Looks like I need to get me a copy of Playful Parenting too.

Thanks everyone for responding!


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Yep, I'm here!







My ds is 4 and fits the definition of spirited to a tee. He has so. much. energy. And is so very loud. Most days I really feel like














. He just goes goes goes from the minute he wakes up, is rough with his sister(though she loves it most of the time!), always has to be the center of attention, NEEDS outside time everyday, and does NOT seem to know when to stop sometimes, even when I have been patient and given him extra leeway.







This year has been particularly hard because not only am I adjusting to life with two kids, but this past winter was extremely cold and now this summer has been EXTREMELY hot, with temperatures around 100 degrees...both of which have meant limited outside time for ds, which is NOT GOOD for our relationship. I have yelled so much, and have done other mean things in the heat of anger....







He just makes me so MAD sometimes, I just don't know what to do! Things were definitely more intense during the winter months, we seemed to be locked into a pattern where I was angry with him for weeks on end - thankfully it is not like that now. And he is starting pre-K in less than two weeks, which will definitely help. He is very social and I know he will enjoy the time with kids, and I need the time to regroup a little bit.

I'm actually reading Playful Parenting right now and it has helped some.







He really seems to respond well to playfulness, and not as well to anger or threats(I really try not to threaten, but...that's not been so easy with him!). It seems sometimes that the angrier I get, the more it eggs him on to make a game out of it, which makes me even angrier!







I'm getting --a little-- better at stopping that mid-cycle, and initiating making a game of things. Anger certainly does not seem to help these situations, that's for sure.

Anyway, hope to keep chatting with you all, I've been wondering if there was a thread or a tribe like this!!


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## italiancookies (Jul 9, 2005)

wish i had time to post and respond to all that has been written. However at 4:42am I am finally tired enough to go to sleep. THe things I've been dealing with from my spirited almost 6yr old have been keeping me up late with exhaustion lol.

I am sad (a little depressed) over the strain on our relationship and it is also affecting my relationship with my DH (not like oh we are heading towards divorce, just very stressful).

I am up to extravert/introvert section so Im hoping to learn more helpful tips to come and I am going to make an appt with her ped to just check out other avenues and make sure all is well.


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## joliebebe (Jul 8, 2006)

A book that has made dealing with my spirited child MUCH easier is
"How to talk to kids will listen and how to listen so kids will talk"
http://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Kids-.../dp/0380811960

These communication techniques have become like second nature and take all the struggle and 'fight' out of dealing with my boy, especially when there's a problem or an issue we have to work through. He's sweeter, calmer, more helpful and kinder to his brothers.

Sometimes I wonder about the labels we give our children, could thier 'spirited' behaviour, or some of it, be a result of how they are treated and their environment.

One thing is for sure, my son has unlimited energy, and will bounce off the walls alot of the time. But its the negative side of his 'spiritedness', like being stubborn, complaining, meltdowns etc that I wonder about. Its very easy to label children and not do anything about it, especially looking at the way WE deal with them. I know in our situation, adjusting the way I talk and react to my child has bought a huge change in his behaviour.
Just thinking out loud here, not pointing any fingers.


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## MissNo (Jul 24, 2009)

mamapisces, I could have typed that post word-for-word. What a relief to read that someone else is dealing with it. This summer has been really tough, even with a pool to play in. It was too hot for the pool recently, and there as a lot of running in the house and yelling mama.

School starts shortly, and it will be a nice break for all of us.


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## ariatrance (Feb 12, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *welsh* 
However....3 weeks ago I gave birth to DD and it would seem like I am now Public Enemy #1.
When he's melting down right now (multiple times per day) his anger is directed at me, 'I don't want you Mummy', finger pointing, hitting me, not listening to anything I say.
It is breaking my heart and I'm not coping well. The situation is exacerbated by the fact that we came home from overseas for me to have the baby in mid May and DH only joined us when DD was born. We are staying with the in-laws too so my parenting is really under the microscope.
DS's world has been turned upside down in so many ways









I adore DD but I'm questioning already whether we should've had a 2nd child and also whether I'll be able to nurse DD for as long as DS (26 mos).

Thanks for listening!









Having a second child is tough. Period. End of sentence. It doesn't matter if a child is spirited or not, adjusting to a new sibling and not being the sole recipient of mom's attention is just tough. That said, yes, I think a spirited child has a more difficult time expressing his emotions, processing his emotions, and eventually adjusting to his emotions.

I wasn't sure I'd be able to nurse my daughter very much either but we've made it 17 mos. so far. It was so, so freaking difficult the first six months. I can't lie - it is horrible (mine are only 20 months apart, so that added an extra layer). But once the new baby starts moving, she will become so much more interesting and seen as a playmate by your older child.

If you are still with family/have help, pass the newborn off after nursing a few times a day and just focus on your son. He needs to know that you are still there, you are still mommy, you are still his best buddy. I allowed my son to show his anger but tried to help him have appropriate outlets, i.e. not hitting me but hitting his stuffed animal or the floor. He was only 20 months, so he didn't understand a lot of what I said but he understood how I said it, he understood the hugs when he was angry and crying.

You'll get there. You will. One day at a time. Once you feel able, get out to a park or somewhere your son can run around and play, where you can wear the baby or push a stroller behind him. Cabin fever will not do anyone any good in this situation.


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ariatrance* 







Having a second child is tough. Period. End of sentence. It doesn't matter if a child is spirited or not, adjusting to a new sibling and not being the sole recipient of mom's attention is just tough. That said, yes, I think a spirited child has a more difficult time expressing his emotions, processing his emotions, and eventually adjusting to his emotions.

I wasn't sure I'd be able to nurse my daughter very much either but we've made it 17 mos. so far. It was so, so freaking difficult the first six months. I can't lie - it is horrible (mine are only 20 months apart, so that added an extra layer). But once the new baby starts moving, she will become so much more interesting and seen as a playmate by your older child.

*If you are still with family/have help, pass the newborn off after nursing a few times a day and just focus on your son. He needs to know that you are still there, you are still mommy, you are still his best buddy. I allowed my son to show his anger but tried to help him have appropriate outlets, i.e. not hitting me but hitting his stuffed animal or the floor. He was only 20 months, so he didn't understand a lot of what I said but he understood how I said it, he understood the hugs when he was angry and crying.

You'll get there. You will. One day at a time. Once you feel able, get out to a park or somewhere your son can run around and play, where you can wear the baby or push a stroller behind him. Cabin fever will not do anyone any good in this situation.*









Bolded ^^ is very, VERY good advice. Spending one on one time with your older child if at all possible will be crucial to maintaining relationship, and that should in turn(hopefully??) keep things from spiraling out of control. Connection is key. I was not so lucky as to have family around when dd was a newborn: my MIL picked a fight with me not a week after dd was born, it snowballed into this huge mess and we ended up not talking for three months(she is the only family we really have nearby). My mom came for a few days, but besides that I was on my own, with my DH working 60 hours a week. It was truly the hardest time I've had in my life.


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

I really like the idea of getting outside FIRST thing in the morning and letting him burn off energy(plus, it's not so hot then). Maybe then he would actually take a nap too!







That's another issue we have, I try to implement quiet time every day to encourage him to take a nap or at least REST at around 1:00, at the latest 2:00. Yeah, right. Rarely happens unless we happen to be driving somewhere, in which case he falls asleep...but if he has no nap/quiet time, then comes "I'm so tiiiiired" at 4 or 5, which is hardly an ok time for a nap, and then I have to deal with grumpiness and fits for the next three hours....that's another reason why I'm ok with him going to pre-k, because they have quiet time every day, where he will have a choice to either sleep or play *quietly* on his mat. For....ready for this? An hour. How on earth they will get MY ds to sit on his mat for an hour everyday is beyond me.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

I'm starting to think that I've been ahem "blessed" with another spirited. My DS is 10 months and is exhibiting much of the same behavior that started when DD was this age. He has sooooooo much energy compared to other babies I know his age. I'm not sure if he is learning it from his sister or it's just DH and I make one type of kid-CRAZY









Today he is just refusing to nap, he is 10 months, crawling 100 miles an hour since 7 months, cruising the same week, and has been going non-stop since he could move. Yet he's had some don't put down moments throw in there. He cries when he sees big kids running, his legs go a million miles and hour watching them run. Now that he's taking steps it's like his brain is too busy to sleep, ugh. Today I am feeling slightly insane from the 2 of them, plus I am getting ready for a trip so I'm trying to do stuff for that. I just wish they'd friggin take a nap!


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
crawling 100 miles an hour since 7 months, cruising the same week, and has been going non-stop since he could move.

My ds was just like this too....


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

He is in driving-me-crazy mode, right now. This kid does not know when to stop! And might I add that he spent 2 and a half hours this morning playing outside. We were both in a great mood, and it was a marvelous start to the day. I don't know what happened since then, but I need it to be bedtime, like now.









Ugh, I hate to sound so negative about him so much. I of course love him, he's my baby. But he really is difficult to get along with sometimes.


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## chrfath (Jun 5, 2003)

We just went to pick-up the Spirited child book from the library. I know it will apply to both of my younger ones. DS is just at a very trying age, don't want to be pinning a label on him. More looking for tools to help me cope.

Everyone is usally up before 6 and I am with them all until bedtime. Thank God they go to bed at or around 7pm. I am exhaused by then.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama*pisces* 
My ds was just like this too....

My DD was too, ugh.....that's why I'm starting to think I may have another on my hands. At least he finally caved into napping today.


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## Natalie12 (Nov 11, 2005)

How does everyone do grocery shopping? With my older child alone it's fine. With my spirited dd it's very challenging. Both of them together? Total nightmare.

I have tried several things: making dd her own list and having her help looking for things. Getting her involved in placing things in and out of the cart. They work for about 5 minutes. She's 4, and hasn't ridden in a cart in a long time. She won't even ride in those play car type ones.

What I've been doing is my bulk shopping at night by myself, or when both kids are in school or camp. However, that's not always possible. Peapod doesn't deliver in my area or I'd totally do that. Any suggestions?


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## maddymama (Jan 5, 2008)

Natalie12,
Is this all grocery stores, or do you only go to one? I ask this bc there is one grocery store in my area with harsher lighting, louder music, etc. We CAN NOT go to this store. We can go to another one a bit farther away, which has much more natural lighting, softer music piped in, etc. And then we only go for a few things at a time, if possible, otherwise I expect it to be rough.
For the big weekly shop, we usually take two cars to church on Sunday, and then my DH and DD2 go to the store, while I take DD1 home for some one-on-one time.
~maddymama


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

I have no advice on shopping I try as hard as possible to not take kids, I really cannot stand shopping with them, BUT I did take just DS the other day for a fair sized store run and it was fine. I'd rather do one HUGE shop every few weeks than take them.


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## Attached2Elijah (Jun 27, 2004)

Oh me, me, me!!! My almost 7 year old is one of the most frustrating, tiresome, demanding, hard-headed.... most sensitive, loving, thoughtful little boys I have ever met. Everything with him is extreme. The temper, the fits, the love, the generosity. Most days I feel like pulling my hair out by the end of the day... but then the times where he sits next to me and tells me he loves just being next to me is enough to make me forget all the bad moments. And like another poster said, as long as we are on the move and keep him busy, he's an angel... but idle hands are DEFINITELY the devil's playthings when it comes to him. I used to feel guilty about how much time I spent on him vs. DD, but she seems to have adapted well and has become much more independent then DS has ever been. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing but it works for her. I always worried that his bad habits would wear off on her too but so far, they don't seem to have had too much of an effect on her.

As for the store, I usually leave DS home with DH because I just CAN NOT deal with him at the store. We usually do one big trip every 2 weeks and then maybe 1-2 small trips in between so I don't have to take him. Every once in awhile, if he has money, I let him go... mainly because if he has something to focus on by buying something, he usually acts better... and I have found now that he is reading, he can help me with the grocery list sometimes is helping a lot.... the last few times we did this, it worked pretty well so maybe I can start taking him again. We'll see how long that lasts, lol.


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

I have two classically spirited kiddos (ds#1 and #3, though #1 is spunky physically), 1 physically spirited/emotionally spunky kiddo (ds#2), and 1 cool kid (ds#4) -- to use the definitions of spirited in the book. I'm definitely spirited, and dh is spunky.  We have some extrovert/introvert clashes, and definitely butt heads on many things. To say we have a lively household is a major understatement.

I'm happy to see this thread, because while I've been dealing with these issues for almost 10 years, it gets lonely. And by the time you have four kids, you stop sharing your trials with most people IRL, for a variety of reasons.

And to whoever said that all kids are "spirited" -- no, not in the way that the author uses the term. Spirited means "more" of just about everything, often recognizable from the very beginning. Spirited is also within the realm of normal -- not associated with ADHD, ADD, or other diagnoses (though certainly, you can be spirited and have these or other conditions/challenges). And after finally having a laid back "cool" kid (who is every bit as intelligent and motivated as the other three), I finally truly understand the difference. If I had had him first, I would be one judgmental mama!


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Grocery shopping: My DH actually surprised me yesterday and described a little bit of his shopping trip with DS. He says that they really have fun together, DS rides in the big part of the cart and DH often stops and "gets gas", makes funny car sounds, etc. I've seen him do this but I didn't realize that he was doing it every single time and that DS loved it so much.







So my suggestion would be to find a way to make the shopping trip fun/or give them more responsibility like getting things for you/or just leave them home!







I relish the shopping trips I get to do with just dd, sometimes I do take both of them or we all go as a family...it hasn't been too big of a deal in a while: I think when he was two and newly three there were a lot more meltdowns in the grocery store.

Oh, also a good thing to do if you do end up grocery shopping with the kids is to go over your family's "grocery store rules of the day" --if they change, mine are usually flexible and change according to what store we go to. As we're pulling in to the parking spot I'll say "what are the grocery store rules?" and he'll repeat whatever we've already agreed upon, usually it's that he will walk right next to me or ride on the end of the cart, and that if he has trouble staying next to me that he then needs to ride IN the cart. Usually if we go over the rules beforehand there are no problems, at the grocery store, anyway!


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama*pisces* 
I think when he was two and newly three there were a lot more meltdowns in the grocery store.......

Oh, also a good thing to do if you do end up grocery shopping with the kids is to go over your family's "grocery store rules of the day" --if they change, mine are usually flexible and change according to what store we go to. As we're pulling in to the parking spot I'll say "what are the grocery store rules?" and he'll repeat whatever we've already agreed upon, usually it's that he will walk right next to me or ride on the end of the cart, and that if he has trouble staying next to me that he then needs to ride IN the cart. Usually if we go over the rules beforehand there are no problems, at the grocery store, anyway!

I've been doing these same kinds of things with DD, she was waaaaayyyyy worse when I was pg with DS and she was about 2.5, I HATED grocery shopping like it was the end all be all of life. My store has those little carts too and OMG her with the little cart was like grocery shopping hell.

After my last post I realized I had recently taken BOTH kids shopping and it went really well, DD is getting much more mature, for me her hardest spirited days were 2-3, I cried most every day, and being pregnant didn't help one bit. Plus I couldn't really carry her because of a tear in my placenta, yeah it was a bad time for us. I didn't really like being a mom of a spirited toddler. I'd watch other moms go to farmer's market or the store and their kids would just follow, obediently...I had one mom tell me that her kid "just knew the rules at the store"







, when my DD was melting down







I live in a small town, I've seen this family lots, her DD never even talks, let alone bolts in public-whatever. Thank goodness DD is getting some control over her public meltdowns, I was ready to never leave the house after last summer.


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## welsh (Feb 14, 2007)

I am so glad it's bedtime because I really couldn't spend another hour in DS's company today








He is so intense and challenging right now and he is clearly missing his routine. Playful parenting works well but it's so hard with a newborn to a)find the energy and b) remember to do it!.

My big vent is....why doesn't he listen?????????!!!!!!!!!!
He gets plenty of outdoor time, lots of roughousing but it feels like we're constantly telling him to stop, be cqreful, be gentle. He even jumps up on DHs 84 yr old Grandma like she's a climbing frame!

So I know that 3 is a 'testing boundaries' stage...when does it stop?!

Anyone else need to share?


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## welsh (Feb 14, 2007)

ariatrance;15714799
You'll get there. You will. One day at a time. Once you feel able said:


> http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/love.gif[/IMG]


Thanks for taking the time to post this.
I took DS to the park yesterday and we did have fun. We met an equally spirited, younger boy there with his Mum and we all had an enjoyable hour.








I really need to adjust my mindset and stop reminding myself of the negatives.
Yes, DS is hard work and I'm really tired but DD is quite easy going thus far, and portable, so I need to give myself a kick up the butt and get out of the house....


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Emma -







hang in there, mama, just try to take it one day, or even one hour, at a time. I just got out of the stage you're in, with a three year old, a newborn, and my hormones going whacko. More than anything, you need to be patient and forgiving towards yourself, and try to see your ds in a positive light as much as possible. Spend some one on one time with him whenever possible, and definitely find a way to let him release some of that energy everyday.

A book that really, really spoke to me during that stage was: Kids, Parents, and Power Struggles by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. I don't really know how much it helped as far as changing my actions







, but it helped me to see that ds was really not out to get me, as much as it seemed that way. That the best thing I could do was try to decode his actions, because underneath that crazy button-pushing behavior was a boy that needed attention/was hungry/thirsty/tired/jealous/needed attention....so at the very least I began to look past the behavior long enough to try to figure out what was wrong, which made me less angry, and it made him seem more human.









HTH...I feel for you mama, I really know how hard it is.


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## maddymama (Jan 5, 2008)

Ok Mamas of Spirited Ones,
I've got a question/dilemma for you. Hang in with me, bc the background is long......
DD1 is a newly turned four year old. Last year I knew I wouldn't be able to provide her with the level of stimulation she needed when DD2 was born so we sent her to a montessori school for the year. After a rough adjustment period (brand spankin' new baby, extended family members in the house for a month, new school year, teacher, teacher's aide, classroom, rules, etc) she LOVED school. She's been home with me this summer and asks almost daily when is it time to go back to school, and informing me that she's bored and misses her education. She is very extroverted to my introverted, she's very active/intense. I've been busting my rear to keep her entertaned enough with VBSs, zoo camp, art camp, gymnastics, swimming, storytime at the library, and tons of playdates with friends this summer.
Last week she did a morning martial arts camp all week and loved it. Loved it completely except for the "graduation ceremony" where she flipped out bc 30 parents showed up, and they had to perform these kicks, sparring with the instructor, and board breaking infront of the parents. DD1 freaked out, cried, sat with me, and then got back up to break the board but needed the most help out of anyone, cried, got overwhelmed and then freaked out more when the kids came by to say good by to her and that they loved hanging out with her for the week. So, I'm doing my best to tell her how proud I am of her, that it's OK to be overwhelmed, that I know she did great bc I saw the kicks she did in the kitchen all week, etc. But inside my heart is breaking that she ended this camp on a bad note. And I can tell that she is proud of herself, but very disappointed that she didn't do the ceremony stuff.
Now school is getting ready to start back up, and right now her only scheduled activity afterschool is gymnastics once a week for an hour (which is her one true love). We'll probably do playdates once a week afterschool, too. Now she wants to add karate, but that is 2 one half hour sessions a week for at least 6 months. And this is the only martial arts studio in the area.
Should we do the karate program?
Pros:
-builds self-confidence, in front of people, which was an issue at times last year in school
-will successfully be able to do a graduation ceremony, remove the disappointment from the end of camp
-extra physical exercise, which will be great when it's too hot out or too cold out to go to the playground or pool (we are usually running her ragged for 2-3 hours a day)
-older kid friends, good role models
-self-discipline
-not a "girly girly" activity like ballet or gymnastics- very gender neutral in our area
-less free time at home (less time for me to try to figure out ways to burn off her energy when the weather is bad, less time for her to watch TV, less of a need for her to run laps around our living room at night, etc.)

Cons
-expensive
- overscheduled? I don't know if she'll be overscheduled or not, but once we're in, we're in the program. Is two to three activities after a full day of school too much for a 4 year old? Last school year we did no schedued activities, and had regular playdates one or two days a week. If we did this, then we wouldn't go to the zoo, museum, playgrounds, etc. nearly as much.
-less free time at home (less time for baking, free play, art, down time, destroying the house, etc.)
I have no friends with truly spirited children here, so no one understands why I schedule two playground playdates back to back (play with one kid for an hour, then another child for another hour), and they don't understand why I would even consider signing her up for two different active activities during the week.....
Yet.... I am a believer that kids should be kids and have plenty of unstructured time to just free play, so this kind of goes against my beliefs, but then again last year we did go nuts trying to get her to burn her energy off. It would be easier for me to sign her up so that there is less stress on me trying to fill her needs, but I would also miss some of our free time to play, do art, etc.
For the record, DD1 is very willing to do karate, but mainly just wants to wear the uniform and do the kicks.
Thanks for reading.... what do you think?
~maddymama


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## maddymama (Jan 5, 2008)

Did my very very very long post scare everyone off?

~maddymama


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

That seems like a bit much to me...I would personally keep it at one scheduled activity per week besides school. Especially since she's had the summer off and you don't really know how she's going to adjust to going to school every day again(I know you said she loves it, but it still may take a little adjusting to get back into the swing of things). Maybe keep her in gymnastics since that her passion, and see how everyone feels about things come winter? I just think it's better to be cautious than to accidentally overschedule her and then have to deal with inevitable meltdowns.







HTH


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## maddymama (Jan 5, 2008)

mamapisces,
That's kinda what we are leaning towards... but I wanted to get some other perspectives.
Thanks!
~maddymama


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## springmum (Aug 30, 2008)

Maddymama - I don't have an older child so this is just the first thought that jumps in my head. It seems like too much to me too. School & gymnastics will be great for social & physical needs. If you find she needs more, make regular playdates again or museum/zoo trips to fill the gap. School alone can be a stressful time even for kids who love it.
I've been reading the book "Hold on to your kids" and it's really reminded me about how important family time is (cooking, eating, playing together etc.)


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## crazylady (Mar 18, 2008)

It makes me happy to see all the spirited parents together! There are many times when I feel that ds is the only one!


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## thelocknestmother (Feb 15, 2008)

Joining in, haven't the time to read everything posted...but DD is spirited and I would love the company...so subbing...


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## maddymama (Jan 5, 2008)

Hi Mamas,
We decided to go ahead and do the martial arts one afternoon a week- and they are "looser" with the little kids than with the big ones, so if we need to skip a week or two we can, and if we need to go two times in one week (bouncing off the wall in bad weather) we can. It's really up to us. We went today for class and DD1 LOVED IT!!!
Thanks for your advice.
~maddymama


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## crazylady (Mar 18, 2008)

Hey Maddymama, we are dealing with a very similar situation. My ds is almost 4.5. He is not in school but very active in a playgroup. Ds is a very spirited kiddo. Lately we have been doing activities almost everyday. I keep noticing that he is acting out. I am starting to think that he is over scheduled. Hopefully the karate works for you! Please let us know!


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Now I'm the one with a situation.

I signed ds up for pre-k last January...the free, lottery-funded pre-k. It seemed like a good idea at the time...I went and met his teacher and her assistant, they answered all my questions(though I'm thinking now perhaps I didn't ask enough), were really great with the kids that were there, and we even got it worked out so that he was in the same class with his buddy, one of my friend's little boy that used to live behind us. The only thing I didn't like, and still don't, are the hours. They operate just like every other elementary school in our county, so the hours are 8:30-3:20 M-F. That is so ridiculously long for a 4 year old. I have been against it the whole time because of this, but I welcomed the break I would have, I welcomed the variety of toys and learning tools he would be exposed to, the structure, the hour nap/quiet time every day, which I figured when he got used to that in school it would be easier for me to incorporate a nap/quiet time on the weekends. Plus, I wanted more one on one time with dd, since ds got my undivided attention at her age, I figured she should get a chance at that too.

It started yesterday and he is already saying he doesn't want to go back. Even though his teacher says he is doing great, and that he and his buddy have been inseparable(and my friend is saying her son is really having a lot of fun with ds, etc) -- and he has been a DEMON both these days that I have picked him up. Yesterday was completely out of control...I know, it was the first day, I should have expected it....the school gets out at the exact same time as the elementary school across the street.







I got there 5 minutes early and went on this crazy mission to try to get to the back of the carpool line, which of course starts on the opposite side of the street from where I come. It took me a good 35 minutes to get to the front of the school and get him in the car. Then, I had no snack for him. Silly me, again. He spent half the ride home kicking the back of my seat, yelling: "HUNGRY!" "HUNGRY!" and then he passed out, at past 4 in the afternoon. Which of course is not good for bedtime. More shenanigans at home, didn't want to cooperate, was cranky, having fits over little things...he finally calmed down and I managed to get him outside, and we played together during his sister's very late but short nap(fell asleep at almost 6 pm--we were just all out of whack).

Today I had a snack ready and was there at 3:10, but there were already about 10 cars in the carpool line in front of me and they didn't start releasing any kids until exactly 3:20







. So I sat there with the car running(wasting gas) and dd sleeping in her carseat(thankfully), finally picked him up, gave him a snack, he was still cranky even though he said he slept at naptime today, still fell asleep on the way home, and was still almost impossible to deal with for the first two hours after we got home. I can. not. keep doing this every day. I'm spending the first 2 or 3 hours that I get to be with him just trying to get him to be reasonable with me, and then when we finally start having a decent time together, two hours later he needs to be asleep. And he is straight up telling me he doesn't want to go back, that the day is too long(not sure if I influenced that decision or not, since I'm sure he has heard me voice to friends, etc, that his school day is too long). But if he is with me all day, his intensity gets to be too much for me, he is such a social kid and we do live in a neighborhood with other kids, but we are about to move in less than a month, to a single family home(a very welcome change).

This is not his first time going to school. He started going to a Montessori-based school when he was 2 years 10 months, and did really well there, had a little bout of seperation anxiety that summer after he had been attending 4 months already, don't know where that came from but it was over in a couple of weeks(may have been cuz I was near the end of my pregnancy with dd) --that school closed







b/c the teacher was running basically out of pocket and didn't have enough students to keep it open. From there he went to a local church preschool until May of this year. Both of these schools went from roughly 9-noon every day. And he was fine with that. But this, this is crazy scheduling for a 4 year old. Whatever happened to half day pre-k and kindergarten???? I understand that most parents have to work and that this works out beautifully for them since they don't have to pay those extra hours of childcare. But there should be an early pick up option. We can't afford to put him in private school right now, and the only other option I can see is homeschooling -- which to me looks great on paper but I don't know if I'm cut out for it? Especially since I don't know how to handle his intensity sometimes. I would feel a lot better if I had a close-knit homeschooling co-op(read: some help??) -- I know of one through LLL about 30 miles away, but they are a very tight knit group and I am not exactly in their "clique" -- even though I hold a lot of similar values/beliefs.









If you've made it this far, thank you for reading. I don't know what we are going to do. I cried to DH tonight and he said: "We are not taking him out of pre-k."







He believes in the school system, and thinks we are not organized enough for hs...I told him he needs to keep an open mind and that I will give it til the end of next week and see how we feel then. Sigh....I don't know how I'll make it til then, if it keeps up the way it's been today and yesterday/ I really hope it gets better. I'm so sad, and confused as to what the right thing to do is.


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## ariatrance (Feb 12, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama*pisces* 
Now I'm the one with a situation.

I signed ds up for pre-k last January...the free, lottery-funded pre-k. It seemed like a good idea at the time...I went and met his teacher and her assistant, they answered all my questions(though I'm thinking now perhaps I didn't ask enough), were really great with the kids that were there, and we even got it worked out so that he was in the same class with his buddy, one of my friend's little boy that used to live behind us. The only thing I didn't like, and still don't, are the hours. They operate just like every other elementary school in our county, so the hours are 8:30-3:20 M-F. That is so ridiculously long for a 4 year old. I have been against it the whole time because of this, but I welcomed the break I would have, I welcomed the variety of toys and learning tools he would be exposed to, the structure, the hour nap/quiet time every day, which I figured when he got used to that in school it would be easier for me to incorporate a nap/quiet time on the weekends. Plus, I wanted more one on one time with dd, since ds got my undivided attention at her age, I figured she should get a chance at that too.

It started yesterday and he is already saying he doesn't want to go back. Even though his teacher says he is doing great, and that he and his buddy have been inseparable(and my friend is saying her son is really having a lot of fun with ds, etc) -- and he has been a DEMON both these days that I have picked him up. Yesterday was completely out of control...I know, it was the first day, I should have expected it....the school gets out at the exact same time as the elementary school across the street.







I got there 5 minutes early and went on this crazy mission to try to get to the back of the carpool line, which of course starts on the opposite side of the street from where I come. It took me a good 35 minutes to get to the front of the school and get him in the car. Then, I had no snack for him. Silly me, again. He spent half the ride home kicking the back of my seat, yelling: "HUNGRY!" "HUNGRY!" and then he passed out, at past 4 in the afternoon. Which of course is not good for bedtime. More shenanigans at home, didn't want to cooperate, was cranky, having fits over little things...he finally calmed down and I managed to get him outside, and we played together during his sister's very late but short nap(fell asleep at almost 6 pm--we were just all out of whack).

Today I had a snack ready and was there at 3:10, but there were already about 10 cars in the carpool line in front of me and they didn't start releasing any kids until exactly 3:20







. So I sat there with the car running(wasting gas) and dd sleeping in her carseat(thankfully), finally picked him up, gave him a snack, he was still cranky even though he said he slept at naptime today, still fell asleep on the way home, and was still almost impossible to deal with for the first two hours after we got home. I can. not. keep doing this every day. I'm spending the first 2 or 3 hours that I get to be with him just trying to get him to be reasonable with me, and then when we finally start having a decent time together, two hours later he needs to be asleep. And he is straight up telling me he doesn't want to go back, that the day is too long(not sure if I influenced that decision or not, since I'm sure he has heard me voice to friends, etc, that his school day is too long). But if he is with me all day, his intensity gets to be too much for me, he is such a social kid and we do live in a neighborhood with other kids, but we are about to move in less than a month, to a single family home(a very welcome change).

This is not his first time going to school. He started going to a Montessori-based school when he was 2 years 10 months, and did really well there, had a little bout of seperation anxiety that summer after he had been attending 4 months already, don't know where that came from but it was over in a couple of weeks(may have been cuz I was near the end of my pregnancy with dd) --that school closed







b/c the teacher was running basically out of pocket and didn't have enough students to keep it open. From there he went to a local church preschool until May of this year. Both of these schools went from roughly 9-noon every day. And he was fine with that. But this, this is crazy scheduling for a 4 year old. Whatever happened to half day pre-k and kindergarten???? I understand that most parents have to work and that this works out beautifully for them since they don't have to pay those extra hours of childcare. But there should be an early pick up option. We can't afford to put him in private school right now, and the only other option I can see is homeschooling -- which to me looks great on paper but I don't know if I'm cut out for it? Especially since I don't know how to handle his intensity sometimes. I would feel a lot better if I had a close-knit homeschooling co-op(read: some help??) -- I know of one through LLL about 30 miles away, but they are a very tight knit group and I am not exactly in their "clique" -- even though I hold a lot of similar values/beliefs.









If you've made it this far, thank you for reading. I don't know what we are going to do. I cried to DH tonight and he said: "We are not taking him out of pre-k."







He believes in the school system, and thinks we are not organized enough for hs...I told him he needs to keep an open mind and that I will give it til the end of next week and see how we feel then. Sigh....I don't know how I'll make it til then, if it keeps up the way it's been today and yesterday/ I really hope it gets better. I'm so sad, and confused as to what the right thing to do is.









First,







Change is so tough with kids, especially spirited kids.

Yes, it is a long day but the majority of kids spend longer at childcare/school than an adult spends at work - that's a mind trip! He may need a lot of time to adapt to this change in his schedule. If you think you can handle it a little longer, I personally would aim for six weeks to see if it gets better.

Good thing on the snack - gotta keep that blood sugar up! He may be passing out in the car because he's had so much energy output at school (which is a huge plus) - can you keep him awake by talking about his day or singing songs together or something like that?

I was apparently really high-strung and grumpy upon arriving home from school from about age 3 to ..... um, I still get that way after being out all day. I did (do) need to take about 30 min. to an hour by myself, like in my room alone, right away to sort out my day mentally and emotionally before I was ready to be a human being to my family. It took my mom a couple of weeks to figure that out but it really saved us both a lot of emotional heartache. Maybe he needs something like that too?

You are doing good! You are a good mother! You WILL figure this out for your family!


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

MamaPisces,

Okay, so we homeschool and always have -- just want to get that bias out there right now.  However, I have a ton of friends who use brick and mortar schools for their kiddos, and I can guarantee that each and every one of them would agree with me -- that school day is MUCH too long for a 4 year, especially a 4 year old spirited boy. That's a long time to be away from home (i.e. the familiar and comfortable), it's a long time to be on someone else's schedule, and if he is the least bit introverted, that's a long time to be expected to interact civilly with others. We would never expect a child his age to work those kind of hours, and yet for many children his age, it definitely can start to feel like work.

I would keep looking. He's not happy, you're not happy. There's no reason to rush, and it's okay to change one's mind about something like this (you won't be losing face or setting a bad example). There have to be some half days programs somewhere around you; alternatively, find some activities and schedule 2 or 3 days around those (drop off programs at the Y, or something like that).

As for homeschooling, it's not as difficult as you might think.  Really, with very, very few exceptions, the vast majority of parents are capable of educating their own children. There are many statistics to back this up. Homeschooling doesn't happen in one particular way, either -- it can look like what you (and your children) want it to look like.  And it might be worth checking into the homeschooling group, even if it looks cliquish. Looks can be deceiving, and the information and experience you can tap into can be invaluable.

GL!!


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *theatermom* 
MamaPisces,

Okay, so we homeschool and always have -- just want to get that bias out there right now.  However, I have a ton of friends who use brick and mortar schools for their kiddos, and I can guarantee that each and every one of them would agree with me -- *that school day is MUCH too long for a 4 year, especially a 4 year old spirited boy. That's a long time to be away from home (i.e. the familiar and comfortable), it's a long time to be on someone else's schedule, and if he is the least bit introverted, that's a long time to be expected to interact civilly with others. We would never expect a child his age to work those kind of hours, and yet for many children his age, it definitely can start to feel like work.*
I would keep looking. He's not happy, you're not happy. There's no reason to rush, and it's okay to change one's mind about something like this (you won't be losing face or setting a bad example). There have to be some half days programs somewhere around you; alternatively, find some activities and schedule 2 or 3 days around those (drop off programs at the Y, or something like that).

As for homeschooling, it's not as difficult as you might think.  Really, with very, very few exceptions, the vast majority of parents are capable of educating their own children. There are many statistics to back this up. Homeschooling doesn't happen in one particular way, either -- it can look like what you (and your children) want it to look like.  And it might be worth checking into the homeschooling group, even if it looks cliquish. Looks can be deceiving, and the information and experience you can tap into can be invaluable.

GL!!

Thank you....I read the bolded part and started nodding my head. Although he is not the least bit introverted.







Part of me feels like we haven't given it enough of a chance, but the other part of me is screaming: Get him out, now!!! How much can he possibly learn if he is miserable all day? Although it seems that he is ok and happy while he is there, unless they are not letting on that he is unhappy/acting out/whatever and then saving his real feelings for me. Gah, I am open to the idea of homeschooling, or at least letting him be FOUR for a year before we possibly consider kindergarten...but my dh does not see how it is possible for us to homeschool, and ds is so bouncing-off-the-walls/rough with his sister/does not seem to know when to stop -- that if I insist that he stay with me I don't think DH will be supportive of it, for those reasons.

I just started looking up charter schools...there appear to be none near us, and I really don't think there are any other half day options that are free or cheap enough that we can afford right now. I will definitely do more research on homeschooling and perhaps find more out about the LLL hs co-op. Maybe if I find other possibilities that can work I can give this school the boot after *this* week, not next.







That thought makes me really happy, but at the same time, the thought of having him with me all day makes me think: "What am I going to doooo?"

Thanks, theatermom.







And thank you, Ariatrance, for your input also, but I might really go crazy if we wait 6 weeks to see different results.







Sigh...for now, I need to try to sleep, as today is my dd's first birthday







and we are having friends over later to celebrate with us. I really appreciate the support!

ETA: Funny thing is, he's fine in the mornings. He just got dressed without any protest and without much reminding







, and waved happily to me and dd as DH drove him off. We'll see what happens later... although DH is picking him up early today, whether they like it or not. Heh.


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Well, we survived the first week







, and are tentatively keeping him in, for now. I *hate* how long the day is. But as the week went on he started adjusting more and more, not to say that everything is perfect by any means, but he seems to like it and is not having fits for hours (or even in the car, at all) after I pick him up. I think he realized he needed to nap at school, and once he started doing that things have been a little smoother. I don't see us keeping him in the whole year; we are just taking it day by day for now, and given that he continues to like it we will reassess things after we move in less than a month. For now, I have a house to pack up, pretty much by myself.









How is everyone else doing? I didn't kill the thread, did I?


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## chrfath (Jun 5, 2003)

I just feel like pulling my hair out.







DS2 is driving me nuts. Really, he won't stop talking and he has to do everything "BY MYSELF!!" If he doesn't get to he melts to the floor screaming and crying.

He was to be the ringbearer at a wedding yesterday that was pretty much a disaster. No one really expected him to co-operate. I didn't think he would sit on my lap the whole service talking loudly about how he wanted to go inside and he didn't want his pillow and wanted to be naked.









DD took had an adventure this week and let herself out of the yard. She was missing for about a half hour. We were all terrified, the police were called and everything. She opened the gate we thought she couldn't open and later told us she was "trick or treating" with her very limited language skills.

Add a 8 week old puppy to the mix and pregnancy and I feel like the world is closing in on me.

I really just don't know how to deal with DS2 most of the time. Yesterday I put him a baseball shirt and said he looked like he could play baseball. We spent the next 2 hours listening to him ask when he was going to his baseball game.







He was going to the wedding...he is 2...DS1 finally took him outside and threw the ball a couple times for him. I have to be SOOOOOO careful what I say to him.

Sorry for the massive vent. I am just feeling very overwhelmed. Today DH is gone and DS1 has to go for his soccer pictures which means I will have to take all the kids. We may just take a movie and sit in the van until he is done.









Maybe I should just send them all off to school.


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## MissNo (Jul 24, 2009)

My oldest DD is already telling me she isn't going back to school. The past month has been rough, I didn't want to overschedule, so our 'summer' activities ended about three weeks ago. Mistake. I originally enrolled DD in 5 days morning preschool, then changed her to 3 days. The change was made, but not in the records, so we found out at orientation that she's in a 5 day class, and all the other classes are full.

I tried to explain the her the difference, and she seems okay, but we'll see.


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## faithsstuff (Nov 30, 2008)

hey mamas and papas. I'm dying here. DS has been teething all week with fever, snotty nose, the whole shebang. He had a 103 degree all weekend, almost no sleeping and is super miserable. When this is over I think I'm checking into the nearest psych ward for a vacation.


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## Attached2Elijah (Jun 27, 2004)

I'm just about at the end of my rope with my almost 7 year old spirited DS. He starts school again in 2 days but I'm worried I may not make it even that long. I am so tired of the disrespect, constant arguing, screaming and arguing. He's so exhausting. Emotionally and physically exhausting. I feel like it's everything I can do to not become that screaming, yelling, tyrant that I know I'm inches away from sometimes. I just feel like I have totally failed at parenting with him most days. My DD is so easy and laid back comparatively. She is 23003249230494 easier then he has ever been. I feel like I have been completely successful with raising her... but somewhere, somehow I am lacking with DS and I worry about when he is a teenager. I already feel completely out of control with him... I can't imagine when he's bigger then I am (he already comes to my shoulder and only weighs 1 size smaller in shoes then I do) I fear the day he realizes he is stronger then I am. I'm just so tired of fighting with him. I want to have a loving, easy relationship with him like I do my daughter but some days, I have trouble even being around him.


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## Hokulele (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama*pisces* 
Oh, also a good thing to do if you do end up grocery shopping with the kids is to go over your family's "grocery store rules of the day" --if they change, mine are usually flexible and change according to what store we go to. As we're pulling in to the parking spot I'll say "what are the grocery store rules?" and he'll repeat whatever we've already agreed upon, usually it's that he will walk right next to me or ride on the end of the cart, and that if he has trouble staying next to me that he then needs to ride IN the cart. Usually if we go over the rules beforehand there are no problems, at the grocery store, anyway!











This idea is a great one! We do something similar for many different situations, not just the grocery store. I often forget this jewel of advice - but nothing compares to prepping BEFORE entering a situation. These are the rules, these are the consequences.

DD does MUCH better if she knows exactly what to expect and what is expected of her. Whether that's on an excursion she has regularly (grocery store) or something new and different (birthday party etc).


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

OK I belong in this group. I just realized that everyone else's kids are not, in fact, on vicodin.


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## Hokulele (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama*pisces* 
Well, we survived the first week







, and are tentatively keeping him in, for now. I *hate* how long the day is. But as the week went on he started adjusting more and more, not to say that everything is perfect by any means, but he seems to like it and is not having fits for hours (or even in the car, at all) after I pick him up. I think he realized he needed to nap at school, and once he started doing that things have been a little smoother. I don't see us keeping him in the whole year; we are just taking it day by day for now, and given that he continues to like it we will reassess things after we move in less than a month. For now, I have a house to pack up, pretty much by myself.










Mam*pisces - how have things been the second week? Sorry I didn't have the chance to respond before this. We've been out of town so my MDC time cut way back 

When DD started school it was a similar situation. We did two things that may or may not even be an option for you, but I'll put them out there. 1. we cut her back to three days a week and 2. we asked to pick her up early. The school is small and flexible so it worked for us, but maybe it is worth asking, if you haven't already?

I know how you feel. I always thought homeschooling sounded perfect for us. But the reality is that it wouldn't be an option. I just cannot provide the amount of energy and attention DD requires 24/7. And I have found it to be very important for her to have a second set of people/rules/schedule to learn how to mesh with. We have no family nearby so DD doesn't ever spend time away from me. Other than school, she has *zero* experience in getting along with others. (If that makes sense.)


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## Hokulele (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attached2Elijah* 
I'm just about at the end of my rope with my almost 7 year old spirited DS. He starts school again in 2 days but I'm worried I may not make it even that long. I am so tired of the disrespect, constant arguing, screaming and arguing. He's so exhausting. Emotionally and physically exhausting. I feel like it's everything I can do to not become that screaming, yelling, tyrant that I know I'm inches away from sometimes. I just feel like I have totally failed at parenting with him most days. My DD is so easy and laid back comparatively. She is 23003249230494 easier then he has ever been. I feel like I have been completely successful with raising her... but somewhere, somehow I am lacking with DS and I worry about when he is a teenager. I already feel completely out of control with him... I can't imagine when he's bigger then I am (he already comes to my shoulder and only weighs 1 size smaller in shoes then I do) I fear the day he realizes he is stronger then I am. I'm just so tired of fighting with him. I want to have a loving, easy relationship with him like I do my daughter but some days, I have trouble even being around him.









Wow - I could have written this post several times in the last two weeks about my DD1, who is 5 years old.

It is ALL I can do most days to keep it together and not totally lose it. Scratch that. I DO lose it most days. Ugh! This morning she had a screaming fit before DH even left for work. I sat her down, looked her right in the eye and said (very lovingly) "I don't want today to go like our other recent days. I want us to be kind and loving to each other, ok?" By some miracle she actually sat still and listened to those two sentences, her normal reaction would be to look elsewhere, squirm away and give me some flip answer. But this morning she nodded in agreement and gave me a huge hug. She seemed relieved! And within TWO minutes she was at it again - whining, screaming, hitting, pushing her sister.....









I know she doesn't like it being this way, but I cannot figure out how to help her. And aside from the draining, soul crushing frustration of the every day toughness, I worry about what happens when she gets older. How will I handle it when she has friends who drive cars and she starts sneaking out her window at night to get away from us? And what about when she's all grown up and she can't manage her emotions? I need to find a way to help her navigate her intense emotions.

For now I'm going to focus on enough sleep, food, and activity for her. And I'm going to read Raising your Spirited Child every free moment I have.


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hokulele* 
Mam*pisces - how have things been the second week? Sorry I didn't have the chance to respond before this. We've been out of town so my MDC time cut way back 

When DD started school it was a similar situation. We did two things that may or may not even be an option for you, but I'll put them out there. 1. we cut her back to three days a week and 2. we asked to pick her up early. The school is small and flexible so it worked for us, but maybe it is worth asking, if you haven't already?

I know how you feel. I always thought homeschooling sounded perfect for us. But the reality is that it wouldn't be an option. I just cannot provide the amount of energy and attention DD requires 24/7. And I have found it to be very important for her to have a second set of people/rules/schedule to learn how to mesh with. We have no family nearby so DD doesn't ever spend time away from me. Other than school, she has *zero* experience in getting along with others. (If that makes sense.)

Thanks for asking.







He is tolerating it pretty well, but the way the schedule is seems to cause a lot of stress in our daily routine. BUT...this past week I found out about this wonderful program at the local high school. They have a preschool (I'm guessing for 3 and 4 year olds, two of my friends with 3 year olds have signed up), taught by highschoolers attending that school that have interest in pursuing a teaching degree, but it is overseen by an experienced teacher - the hs students make up daily lesson plans but everything has to be approved by the teacher running it. There are only 15 slots(and we barely got in b/c I found out about it at the very last minute), and the daily schedule is somewhat similar to what he has now, EXCEPT that the hours are...ready for this? It's Tuesday through Friday, half day 9-12 or full day 9-2. So not only is the "full" day just about 2 hours less than what he is required to do now, we have the option of a half day, and we can switch from half to full day if we so desire.







Now, we do have to pay for this, and his pre-k now is free. BUT it is a very reasonable price per month, considerably less than we have ever paid for a pre-school prior to this. Which makes sense, since it is, in essence, a training program for the highschool students. Oh, and another thing I like about it is that there is a 1:1 or 1:2 teacher/student ratio. They have a lot of group time, free play, outside time, lunch, a short nap, and then once or twice a day they have the one on one time with a highschooler, and they work on whatever the kids' individual needs are: phonics, numbers, whatever, and it's done in 15 minute intervals. Which I think is a perfectly suited learning environment for ds - one on one, or at least one to two, in a small class with two of his buddies, and learning new concepts in a relaxed atmosphere from a "big kid".

All I have to say is:







It starts the 21st and I will be sure to come in here to update.









ETA: Those are great suggestions Hokulele, I've already hinted at the school admin that I wanted to pick him up early, and all I got in reply was that if he misses a certain amount of time/days, he loses his spot in the school. That was one of the many reasons for my frustration, the school is very UNflexible. And as far as homeschooling, I'm still keeping it as an option for kindergarten(as I don't agree with a full day for kindy either, and that all that "seems" to be offered around here), but I kinda feel the same way as you. Ds has sooo much energy and is so quick to frustrate me, that it's hard for me to imagine having him all day and being able to teach him effectively. But I'm working on possibly finding or forming a co-op, which I think could really help.


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attached2Elijah* 
I'm just about at the end of my rope with my almost 7 year old spirited DS. He starts school again in 2 days but I'm worried I may not make it even that long. I am so tired of the disrespect, constant arguing, screaming and arguing. He's so exhausting. Emotionally and physically exhausting. I feel like it's everything I can do to not become that screaming, yelling, tyrant that I know I'm inches away from sometimes. I just feel like I have totally failed at parenting with him most days. My DD is so easy and laid back comparatively. She is 23003249230494 easier then he has ever been. I feel like I have been completely successful with raising her... but somewhere, somehow I am lacking with DS and I worry about when he is a teenager. I already feel completely out of control with him... I can't imagine when he's bigger then I am (he already comes to my shoulder and only weighs 1 size smaller in shoes then I do) I fear the day he realizes he is stronger then I am. I'm just so tired of fighting with him. I want to have a loving, easy relationship with him like I do my daughter but some days, I have trouble even being around him.

















-- I felt like this for almost the entire time ds was 3. It certainly didn't help that I had a newborn and my hormones were all out of whack. I really hope that things are getting better for you!


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## Tizzy (Mar 16, 2007)

I guess I belong here!








I've heard about "spirited children" but I didn't realize that I had one. I've always described him as "intense" but thought that spirited children were those that are out of control or hyperactive.
I'm in the middle of reading "Taming the spirited child" and it describes DS1 to the letter. Scarily so!

There is a definite difference between a "spirited child" and a normal busy, outgoing child.
I have one of each (and a very mellow baby!) and the difference is so clear. Both are very much boys, but one does not need nearly as much correction as the other and is not nearly as persistent or dramatic.

I am blessed, they are excellent siblings. Of course they have their minor disagreements, but they share *everything*, they are kind to eachother, they love eachother and show affection easily. Now DH and I need to work on being more friendly and less harsh because that obviously doesn't work


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## jillmamma (Apr 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scottishmommy* 
OK I belong in this group. I just realized that everyone else's kids are not, in fact, on vicodin.

Haha (I think)

My middle child, age 5 DD, definitely fits this category. The best word to describe her is intense...emotions, reactions, feelings, stubbornness, energy, sweetness, empathy, intellegence, etc. She also just started K and is doing well academically, but struggling to keep good behavior all day (7 hours, no 1/2 day options here). She is crazy when she gets home, and was on red 3 days last week at school. I am trying to decide how to handle it at home, what consequences for her behavior, and suggestions for her teacher to work with her. Any ideas?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maddymama (Jan 5, 2008)

HI Jillmama,
Personally, I think the red/yellow/green light concept doesn't work with little kids, and really doesn't work with spirited children. They need more immediate feedback when something is going well, and something more concrete than "moving their card" when something isn't going well.... so I'd talk to the teacher about setting up a different positive behavior system with your child (at least).
Also.... we (try) to go to the playground a few days a week afterschool on our way home or on our way to an activity.... even if it's for 10 minutes.... it seems to help my DD transition/let out her emotions, etc.
Good luck!
~maddymama


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## Centura (Jul 15, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scottishmommy* 
OK I belong in this group. I just realized that everyone else's kids are not, in fact, on vicodin.

Amen!


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## Natalie12 (Nov 11, 2005)

Just wondering how other spirited kids are in the car. We live in a rural town and have to drive 20 minutes or more to get to a lot of places. My dd does not do well in the car, as she gets bored easily and it's hard to sit still that long. We do give her stuff to do in the car, and talk to her a lot. Just wondering if other spirited kids are like this


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

My son is a spirited child. Everything about him is intense, in your face, to the max. Emotions were as intense as you could imagine. When he was younger, he needed constant stimulation- mental, physical, sound, etc. He was always on the go, never stopped, could not sit still to save his life. And his imagination... wow! Now that he's 15, he's toned it down a bit, and I'm pregnant with another spirited little boy. This, I'm getting nervous about- when I had my son, I was 19, so much younger, so much more energy. When I think of the things my first son used to do, especially in his toddler and preschool years- climbing out the second story window, dumping everything in the fridge all over his toys in his playroom to make it "rain", stealing a screwdriver to unscrew the screws on the electrical sockets- and I never left him alone at that age for more than 10 minutes at a time to go to the bathroom!!! I'm not sure if I have the energy to go through all that again, with my little son- every doctor's appointment, different doctors, different nurses, they all tell me I've got a wild one in there, that I'd better be ready when he's born, that I'd better have alot of patience, for this one, etc! I can feel him as I type- he rarely stops moving, he's literally bouncing off the walls in there!


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## newmomroxi (Mar 6, 2009)

Hi there! Can I join in? I don't have a lot of time now (I'm at work and should be working) but I just had post quickly. My DS is not quite 1 and he is DEFINITELY a spirited child. The book was recommended to me before DS was even born so I read it then. DH is a spirited guy and needed some coping mechanisms so I read it to help him. Well, lo and behold, DS is just like his father. They are exhausting!









Like I said, DS is not quite 1 and already we are getting frustrated with teaching him. He screams to communicate, wants to do everything on his own.... he's soooo strong-willed. He's also a very loveable kid and can be sweet. It is just difficult knowing how to meet his needs. He obviously wants something but we can't figure out what since he is still learning how to talk. And my attempt to teach him to sign died immediately. He won't keep still!

Anyway, I look forward to reading and learning from you all!


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## Demeter_shima (May 16, 2007)

Joining in!

I have a 2 1/2 year old DS who is just on the spirited scale. My husband and I were/are BOTH spirited and also diagnosed with ADD/ADHD as children. I do not believe that will be the case for my son, but his being spirited does create challenges for us just the same.

He is more of an extrovert for sure (like his mommy) and the most willful child ever! I find myself loosing my temper and patience a lot lately...and I rely on Attachment Parenting and the "Raising your spirited child" book for my own grounding. It can be so hard to keep cool when you are under stress and have a HIGH energy HIGH demand child.

I'm glad we can talk to each other! So many people just don't get it.

Peace,
Annette


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## Mere (Oct 1, 2002)

Joining in here too! I have three kids: dd (8) started out quite spirited, but pretty much outgrew it. Ds2 (3) is the lovely, laid-back third child. Life with these would be a piece of cake, literally. Then you throw Ds1 (6), into the mix - he is my spirited child. SIGH.

Like everyone else's child, he is intense in every way. His intensity isn't so much physical though as it is emotional. He feels and react to things SO intensely. As we've started homeschooling, I've learned that - surprise surprise - he also learns intensely. Meaning, he absorbs material quickly and efficiently...but only for short periods of time. Whatever I can fit in in 10-15 minute chunks of time is good!

He's also big on control. He wants to be in control of everything that affects him, and resists strongly when asked to comply or conform with something that is not in his agenda. On the flip side, when he DOES adopt something into his agenda, it's there forever and you'd better not mess with it! He'd probably do really well on a strict schedule, because then he would always know what was going to happen, when. Alas, we are not terribly structured, scheduled people, but I try to accommodate him.

Those are my two big issues now - dealing with his emotional intensity (e.g., how do you stop him from hitting when he feels wronged?) and his need for control.


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mere* 
Joining in here too! I have three kids: dd (8) started out quite spirited, but pretty much outgrew it. Ds2 (3) is the lovely, laid-back third child. Life with these would be a piece of cake, literally. Then you throw Ds1 (6), into the mix - he is my spirited child. SIGH.

Like everyone else's child, he is intense in every way. His intensity isn't so much physical though as it is emotional. He feels and react to things SO intensely. As we've started homeschooling, I've learned that - surprise surprise - he also learns intensely. Meaning, he absorbs material quickly and efficiently...but only for short periods of time. Whatever I can fit in in 10-15 minute chunks of time is good!

He's also big on control. He wants to be in control of everything that affects him, and resists strongly when asked to comply or conform with something that is not in his agenda. On the flip side, when he DOES adopt something into his agenda, it's there forever and you'd better not mess with it! He'd probably do really well on a strict schedule, because then he would always know what was going to happen, when. Alas, we are not terribly structured, scheduled people, but I try to accommodate him.

Those are my two big issues now - dealing with his emotional intensity (e.g., how do you stop him from hitting when he feels wronged?) and his need for control.

My spirited ds also has a May birthday.







We went through a very rough spot last year where he was lashing out and hitting me A LOT. I did not deal with it well, at all.







I would talk to him afterwards and tell him: "It's ok to be angry, but it is NOT ok to hit me." and then we would talk about what IS ok to do when angry. Stomping feet, screaming into a pillow, hitting a pillow, using his words, etc. Repeat ad nauseum.







What really helped us though, was a suggestion that I came across on another forum...I got an old shoe box and dubbed it his "Angry box", and put things in it that could help him work through his anger in a respectful way. Scraps of paper for him to rip up or angrily scribble on, and modeling clay to pound. For probably a month after that, he would get angry, and I would remind him as he would be swinging at me: "Go to your angry box!" to no avail. Just when I was beginning to lose hope, we were having a bit of a rough morning one day, and I could tell the tension was starting to build when he suddenly went to his angry box, and a few minutes later brought me a picture and said: "Look mom, I was angry" --showed me angry scribbles "And now I feel better" flipped the paper over to show me a happy face.







I was like: "YES!!!!" He used it one or two other times and has now pretty much outgrown that stage(knocking on wood)...sometimes when he's angry now he'll go to hit me, restrain himself and kinda push me a little bit. Still not the perfect scenario but so much better than it was.


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## maddymama (Jan 5, 2008)

LOVE the idea of an angry box.... . I'm stealing it and making one this weekend. (Oh, I wish I had this idea last year when DD2 was born).....
~maddymama


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Glad you like the idea Maddymama, I hope it helps you guys.


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## Hokulele (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama*pisces* 
I got an old shoe box and dubbed it his "Angry box", and put things in it that could help him work through his anger in a respectful way. Scraps of paper for him to rip up or angrily scribble on, and modeling clay to pound. For probably a month after that, he would get angry, and I would remind him as he would be swinging at me: "Go to your angry box!" to no avail. Just when I was beginning to lose hope, we were having a bit of a rough morning one day, and I could tell the tension was starting to build when he suddenly went to his angry box, and a few minutes later brought me a picture and said: "Look mom, I was angry" --showed me angry scribbles "And now I feel better" flipped the paper over to show me a happy face.

How AWESOME! Thank you for posting that idea. I'm going to try that with my 5yo. We need *something* to help us. We're in a bad patch right now. (Lots of exploding temper tantrums and intense emotions).


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## Mere (Oct 1, 2002)

The angry box - I like it! It's a great idea for when we are home, but what about, say, the car? If anyone has any good ideas for how to deal with anger when sitting 1mm away from your sibling, I'd love to hear it...


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Hmm...keep a pad of paper and a pen in the car so he can scribble/write an angry note?







The main thing, I think, is to try to give him acceptable/positive outlets for his anger. Focus on what he _can_ do instead of what he isn't allowed to do.Tell him he can use his words to state how he feels, as long as those words aren't meant to be hurtful towards anyone... from what I can tell, if little kids aren't given specific examples of acceptable behavior(again and again and again...), they fall back on their instinct to hit, bite, pinch whoever they are angry with.








I know how you feel, at least to some extent! It's beyond difficult when you are trying your hardest to stick to your discipline guns in the face of getting hit(or watching your other child get hit...). I hope you find a solution soon!


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## Mere (Oct 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama*pisces* 
Hmm...keep a pad of paper and a pen in the car so he can scribble/write an angry note?







The main thing, I think, is to try to give him acceptable/positive outlets for his anger. Focus on what he _can_ do instead of what he isn't allowed to do.Tell him he can use his words to state how he feels, as long as those words aren't meant to be hurtful towards anyone... from what I can tell, if little kids aren't given specific examples of acceptable behavior(again and again and again...), they fall back on their instinct to hit, bite, pinch whoever they are angry with.

I totally agree...I really try to focus in on what he CAN do. It is generally much more effective. However, his emotions are so brief and intense that I'm afraid that the pen might end up being used as a weapon rather than an instrument for venting







. Audio books playing constantly have really helped distract everyone in the car, but those flare-ups are hard to control when they happen. I find myself resorting to punishment-type threats I'm afraid (they get assigned an extra cleaning job). I don't feel great about doing that, but when rationale talk doesn't work I don't know what else to turn to.

On a different note, does anyone else have issues with extreme persistence and rule-testing? I try to keep it simple and not have that many rules in our house - just the basic ones to ensure safety and respect - but ds still has to test those rules. Every. Single. Day. I feel like he is ALWAYS on the lookout for the one time when I am going to be off my guard and not correct him, which of course to him would be equivalent to an endorsement on my part to do (or not do) the activity in question whenever he wanted (and then I would have to work 100 times harder to re-establish that rule). A lot of the time I feel like he and I are in a pack of dogs, and I have to consistently be able to prove my alpha-dog status with him, otherwise he'll just take off and do whatever he wants and have no respect for others. I already see this with dh a bit, who sometimes is tired and just doesn't feel like enforcing the rules and following through to the extent that ds requires. Ds therefore feels (and has said) that I am the boss of the house and therefore much of the un-fun enforcement tasks (e.g. brushing teeth, going to bed in a timely fashion) fall on me.









I'm sure I will come through ds' childhood a much better, more patient person....right?


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## ariatrance (Feb 12, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mere* 
A lot of the time I feel like he and I are in a pack of dogs, and I have to consistently be able to prove my alpha-dog status with him, otherwise he'll just take off and do whatever he wants and have no respect for others. I already see this with dh a bit, who sometimes is tired and just doesn't feel like enforcing the rules and following through to the extent that ds requires. Ds therefore feels (and has said) that I am the boss of the house and therefore much of the un-fun enforcement tasks (e.g. brushing teeth, going to bed in a timely fashion) fall on me.









I'm sure I will come through ds' childhood a much better, more patient person....right?

Well, I hope so because I too hope to get through this a better person!







Cannot say that I am anywhere near being patient on most days....for the life of me, I have no idea why some things bother me so much that I get intensely angry. Perhaps it has to do with hanging on the end of my rope most of the time???









I am also the rule enforcer because I am the main caregiver, with the two all the freaking time. Also my husband has gotten into this rather annoying (for me and son) habit of over-explaining the rules. He's 3 - he isn't able to process paragraphs of information even if he had a calm, stable mind.

I have no idea what to do during this current cycle of rule-testing. I am over-relying on timeout, which doesn't work anyway. I thought I was getting somewhere today when, in his 3rd timeout, he actually came to me ON HIS OWN and apologized for breaking the rule. However, a few hours later, he spent two hours in timeout














and would not apologize. I think he also forgot what he did that got him in timeout.

I find a lot of my trouble comes from the need to have 'complicated' rules. I try to keep it simple but if the rule is 'We do not hurt other people,' how do I relate that to hitting his sister, taking a toy away from his sister, kicking me while thrashing about, screaming at the top of his lungs, running away with a forbidden object, etc. There are sooooooo many little things that I do not want him to do but I cannot figure out how to make a few simple rules that absolutely apply to everything AND that he will understand apply to everything. Does that make sense?

I can hardly wait until his sister is old enough to start testing......


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## Mere (Oct 1, 2002)

Ariatrance, I too try to keep it simple! As far as how to keep the rules simple, I have a few (e.g., don't hurt other people, act respectful, be safe) and then I pretty much constantly have to tell my spirited child (just him, mind you, not my other two) that whatever he just did hurts people, or is not respectful, or not safe. I try to give him a warning the first time and let him know that whatever he did does not fit within our rules and why (very simply - b/c it's not respectful, or whatever) and then if he does it again he either gets a time out or a cleaning job. I'm not a big time out fan either, but I have to do something! Time outs were okay when he was young, but cleaning jobs are more effective now that he is older (and he's learning some new skills around the house to boot!).

This is my mantra: keep it simple, be consistent....repeat 1 million times.

One thing I've noticed too about ds1's "testing" behavior: he'll test something we do on a consistent basis (say, some routine bit of schoolwork), throw a fit about it, I say the same predictable thing over and over a few times, he takes a minute to compose himself, and then he's fine. He often even does the task he was just tantruming over quite happily! It's like he just wanted to test me to make sure I was going to be consistent...it's bizarre. He does stuff like that quite often. Take home message to me: take his tantrums and fits with a grain of salt.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Joining. My Ds1 seems to be spirited... and I'm apparently a "spirited parent"...


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## DaughterOfKali (Jul 15, 2007)

I'm in. My son is highly spirited.

I feel as though I'm always exhausted. zzzzzzz


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## CuddleBug'sMama (Jan 29, 2008)

Hi all







:My friend is at her wits end with her 18mon old DD. She seems to fit the 'spirited' description. My friend asks me for advice and I'm at a loss for what to tell her because my DD was nothing like hers at the same age. Do you think the RYSC book would be helpful for her and her 18 mon old at this point?


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CuddleBug'sMama* 
Hi all







:My friend is at her wits end with her 18mon old DD. She seems to fit the 'spirited' description. My friend asks me for advice and I'm at a loss for what to tell her because my DD was nothing like hers at the same age. Do you think the RYSC book would be helpful for her and her 18 mon old at this point?

I don't....I started reading the RYSC book when DS was about that age, and found that I couldn't really relate to it. There are a few questionares in there that you can use to find out approximately where your dc is on the "spirited" scale, but alot of the questions are geared towards older children. I found the book a lot more helpful when ds was 3.


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## Mere (Oct 1, 2002)

I don't know...as I read RYSC when ds was 5.5, I remember thinking to myself, "I already know most of this, but I had to figure out it the hard way..."

While it's true that you much of it won't apply to an 18mo...YET!...it soon will, and I think there area ideas you could start to put into practice. Most of the quizzes and what not won't fit because you don't know how your dd's personality is going to shape up.


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## newmomroxi (Mar 6, 2009)

I agree that it probably won't be helpful for your friend right now. My DS is 1 and although the book will be a GREAT resource in a few years, it is no help right now.

What kind of problems is your friend having? I'm begining to realize that for DS, no matter the situation, it can be resolved in a heartbeat by taking him outside. The boy loves the outdoors!

Anyway, feel free to PM me if you want. I would love to have someone to commiserate with for the next few years.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

"the happiest toddler on the block" methods worked well with my spirited child at 18 months... maybe it would help her?


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## ariatrance (Feb 12, 2009)

I agree with the above statements about RYSC. However, it might help to know if she is trying to compare herself to the other parents she sees (at parks, playgrounds, playgroups, etc.). She is most likely going to be the only parent who has to get off her butt, interact constantly, and run after her child. It is very hard to do that AND compare yourself to all the other parents who just casually tell their kid to knock it off and the kid complies, who never have to jump up at full speed because their kid just took off for the parking lot, who can practically ignore their kid because their kid is ignoring them, etc. There is no comparison. The parent of a spirited child has to be a proactive, alert, interactive parent - it is not for the weak and lazy or faint-hearted. Unfortunately, it is usually the spirited child that makes his/her parent strong, active and big-hearted through lots of trials and tribulations.

BUT (being smug here) I think my spirited children are better than other, non-spirited kids in that they are sooooooooooo alive, joyful, and creative. They never stop because they want to absorb everything this life and world has to offer. Who wants to diminish that?! I'd love to be half as energetic and joyful about life as they are just waking up!

I'm so hopeful (some days) that when the kids are older, this heart-wrenchingly difficult time will payoff in so many beautiful ways. And she should be too!


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## faithsstuff (Nov 30, 2008)

My dh is out of town and ds is a dady's boy. Ds (21 months) is not handling it well. He's waking up at 2 with I assume are nightmares. Screaming until he gags, totally tense body etc. Then at 6 he's up for the day. It's like he's manic with his activity level. I know transitions are hard for him and he's uber-sensitive. I am so so exhausted.


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## Mere (Oct 1, 2002)

I sympathize - transitions are the worst. Now that ds is older (6) it helps tremendously if I can prepare him ahead of time, but even with that there is still drama. It's very tiring. Hang in there!

Just this morning I realized that we having been struggling with a transition and I didn't even realize it...it's been more of a 'pre-transition' if you will. Ds has been doing a lot of whining when it comes to his schoolwork (which we do in a very established routine, same every day, usually not a problem). After suffering through several days of this, I realized that he is probably reacting to the fact that we are about to go on a two-week trip and his whole schedule is going to be disrupted.







....he is so much more sensitive to stuff like that than my other two. In looking back, I *should have* prepped him a week or two ago (when he started counting down the days until we leave) that while I know he's excited about the trip, we are still going to do homework like always but then we won't do it on the trip. Making repeated simple statements like that really helps him adjust to what's coming, but of course you can't always foresee everything!


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

So mamas, how do your spirited kids do at bedtime? Mine is usually bouncing off the walls still....our bedtime routine is pretty simple, he usually comes in from outside at 7 PM, at which point we have dinner, then it's bath, brush teeth, jammies, 3 books, cuddle, sleep.

Wow, now that I've typed that out, I realize that I am not allowing enough time for the bedtime routine...I usually aim to have him in bed by 8, or at least 8:30, but the routine hasn't been going very smoothly the past few nights. Either he has been having a meltdown somewhere in there(or blatantly refusing to brush his teeth...still!







I remember having that fight back when he was 2) or he has had a lot of trouble winding down, which is what really wears on my patience after a while. And I so dislike ending the day on a bad note... if you have a routine that goes relatively smoothly, please share details and how long it takes from start to finish?







I'm thinking that incorporating complete darkness except for flashlights would be good too, especially since it will soon it will be darker earlier.


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## Hokulele (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ariatrance* 
I think my spirited children are better than other, non-spirited kids in that they are sooooooooooo alive, joyful, and creative. They never stop because they want to absorb everything this life and world has to offer. Who wants to diminish that?! I'd love to be half as energetic and joyful about life as they are just waking up!

Thank you for typing this! I feel the same way!! Most of the time I am aware of feeling this way, but some days (today) I need to hear it!


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## SweetPotato (Apr 29, 2006)

Hi ladies-- I need to join you, and I need to ask a question. Our dd is going on 5yo, and has always been very intense, sensitive, and slow to warm up. She's a vibrant little handful







I'm signed up to take a "Raising Your Spirited Child" class at our local community center this fall, and I'm SO excited about it-- we need some more concrete help and ideas then what I've been able to manage from just reading.

My question is how do your children act differently when you're around versus when they're out alone with dad or others. I was really surprised (defensive at first, but now mainly curious) when my husband told me yesterday that our dd is totally different when I'm not around-- that she's less clingy and shy, and more outgoing, talkative, etc. I think that I expected her to act differently, but I expected that my presence would make her feel safer and more comfortable (I've sah since she was born and feel like we have a very special, close, loving relationship) Any thoughts or observations of your own?


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## DaughterOfKali (Jul 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SweetPotato* 

My question is how do your children act differently when you're around versus when they're out alone with dad or others.

My son actually acts worse when I'm not around. I think it will differ for each and every child.


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## Hokulele (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SweetPotato* 
I'm signed up to take a "Raising Your Spirited Child" class at our local community center this fall, and I'm SO excited about it

Oh my! How did you find that class??!??!? I am sure they are not offered in my area, but I would move mountains to get there if I found one near me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SweetPotato* 
My question is how do your children act differently when you're around versus when they're out alone with dad or others. I was really surprised (defensive at first, but now mainly curious) when my husband told me yesterday that our dd is totally different when I'm not around-- that she's less clingy and shy, and more outgoing, talkative, etc. I think that I expected her to act differently, but I expected that my presence would make her feel safer and more comfortable (I've sah since she was born and feel like we have a very special, close, loving relationship) Any thoughts or observations of your own?

I think we've been through all phases of this - DD defnitely acts differently around me vs. not around me. She's done both what your DD is doing (shy & clingy, but only with me) and the opposite (acting out with DH more than with me).

I have SAH with her for her whole life, and I am the parent more likely to be understanding when she feels shy etc. I am the parent who is likely to ask her questions and help her verbalize whatever she is feeling (angry, shy etc). So I think that gives her a big safety net in terms of being allowed to have and express those feelings. When she feels shy when she is with me, she can let herself hang on to me and observe others. When she is with DH, I think sometimes she feels more need to dive in and interact with others because her safety net isn't as strong with him. (I don't mean to make it sound like he doesn't feel safe, he just isn't the type to dig into the feelings with her, does that make sense?)

On the flip side, when DD is feeling frustrated, I can sense it coming long before DH can. So often I can diffuse a temper tantrum before most people even know it is on the horizon. DH is getting better at it, but often if I overhear an interaction that is escalating I notice he misses many cues before 1. he finally catches it before she explodes ...or 2. she explodes.

So, that's a long-winded way of saying that I think especially because you are the SAHparent, you are naturally more in-tune with your DD. And that does make you the safest person for her to be herself around, just it manifests itself differently than what you are expecting. It is natural to think that if you feel safe then she should feel less clingy. But I think it is possible that because you feel safe, she feels safe to BE clingy and be ok with that.

I feel like I'm saying a lot of words, but not making sense. I hope you get what my sleep-deprived brain is trying to convey!


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## Natalie12 (Nov 11, 2005)

Anyone want to revive this thread? I could really use the community. My almost 5 year old is wearing me out.


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## SweetPotato (Apr 29, 2006)

I'm still here and up for a revival! We've been having a nelly of a time- I could use all the help/commiseration I can get!


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## AirMiami (Feb 3, 2009)

Someone asked my husband and I how the terrible two's are going, and all we could do was look at each other. Later on, we both laughed when we found out we were thinking the same thing, our daughter has always been going through the terrible two's! From the minute she was born!


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Jumping in! Should we start a thread just for 2011?


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## Natalie12 (Nov 11, 2005)

I think one of the main challenges that my DD has is that she loves to control things. And really, I don't blame her because I do too! We give her as much control as a four year old can take, and I try to let her make as many decisions as possible.


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## 3belles (Aug 12, 2010)

Funny, I'm posting here. 5 minutes after joining in on the 'easy' child thread. My girls are complicated, even for twins. One of my girls is spirited. I swear the book Olivia is about her!!! She really wears me out, and I spend my day with 3-6 year olds!!


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## AirMiami (Feb 3, 2009)

Hahaha, we always joke that my daughter is Olivia too!


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