# Interesting Car-Safety Idea for Children Ove



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I was just sent the following link --

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/s..._carseats.html

He gives some intriguing information -- it's not been well received in the U.S., so he gave this talk at Oxford University.

He has an idea for a different option for children over 2 -- making backseats with a fold-down piece for small children to sit on, so that they can be comfortably strapped into adult shoulder-and-lap-belts. This should be way less costly than having to buy 2 different carseats for each child (or pay more for an infant-and-toddler combination-seat).

It interested me; I've heard about the dangers of putting new babies into their older siblings' used carseats -- apparently the plastic parts don't last very long, so if your kids are spaced more than 1 or 2 years apart, you need to buy a new seat for each new baby, plus upgrade to toddler seats for older children.

Making new cars with a fold-down piece in the back would save families a lot of money for other things -- they could buy a new carseat for each new baby, and each toddler (over 2) could go to sitting on the raised seat until tall enough to be comfortably strapped in without needing to be raised.

My very tall 8yo is already tall enough for this (and has been for a few years), but I don't think she's heavy enough to meet the legal requirement for no booster, so she sits on her booster -- which is honestly no different from sitting on a raised seat.

My 3yo still uses her infant carseat, which came with a booster-seat option, so we're basically depending on the adult seatbelt (not the carseat) to protect her. By the time she was about 2, we'd loosened the carseat straps as loose as they could go, and they'd become too tight, so we moved the carseat straps to the sides of her body so she didn't have to lean back on them, and started threading the adult shoulder-belt through the carseat-hole above her left shoulder, and just buckled her in like we do our 8yo (well, 8yo does it herself now).

The booster just raises 3yo high enough that she can wear the shoulder-strap comfortably (she's tall like Big Sister). I'm thinking it's safe to use her 3-year-old carseat for this purpose, since we're no longer using the straps, it just boosts her like the fold-down cushion (suggested by Levitt) would. I guess what we're doing costs little extra money, at least not with dd2, since we paid a little extra for the combined infant/toddler seat.

And, no, I'm not saying "saving expenses" is more important than my children's safety. But from what I've seen of Steven Levitt's research, it seems there's not a lot of safety-difference when you compare statistics for children over 2 in standard carseats, with those for over 2's strapped into adult shoulder-and-lap-belts. Having a fold-down seat just sounds less-costly than buying a booster.

According to Levitt, a big chunk of his opposition comes from those with financial interest in carseats.

Thoughts, anyone?

Edited to Add: I'm trying to get the link working ... okay it's working now!


----------



## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Hm, a few points:

1) Some minivans do come with built-in booster seats like this. I would guess that they're not more popular because they increase the costs of production and crash-testing, but are not useful for everyone in the market for the vehicle.

2) Two-year-olds are NOT old enough to be in the adult seatbelt, for many reasons. Most jurisdictions require children to be at least four years old and 40" before they're out of a harness. This is the minimum age at which the skeletal structure is developed enough to be restrained safely by a three-point seatbelt. Most children need to be quite a bit older before they can sit properly in a seatbelt, though; the seatbelt only works if someone is sitting up straight, back against the seat back, and children tend to be wiggly.

3) I'm really concerned about the description of how your daughter is restrained. You said "infant seat," which implies to me a certain kind of seat which is only safe to use with the harness. Such seats (the type that are rear-facing-only and often can be removed from a base that stays installed in the car) typically have a weight limit of 22 pounds, though a couple go to 30; they also have lower height limits (a child must have at least 1" of hard plastic shell above their heads when rear-facing). These seats often have notches to allow them to be installed without the base using the car seat belt; this puts the belt over the child, but the belt is NOT in a position to properly restrain the child in a crash. A child in one of these types of seats without the harness on will have no protection in a crash. If your daughter is too tall for the straps to fit, she has almost certainly outgrown the seat by height, if not weight as well.

If, in fact, by "infant seat" you're referring to another type of seat which converts to a booster, and the notch you're using to position the belt is one designed for use when the seat is a belt-positioning booster, she may be properly restrained, but is probably on the young side to be able to sit properly in a booster seat all the time, so would be significantly safer in a seat with a five-point harness that fits.

I realize you didn't post this to get feedback on your own child's seating, but I couldn't just *not* say anything, as I'm sure you're concerned about her safety in the event of an accident, and wouldn't want her to be unprotected.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Thanks, Ironica! I'll have to look into it more. I definitely want my children to be safe.

Dd's well over 3 now, and being tall, she fits very well into the adult shoulder -strap when on the booster. But, actually, we still thread the shoulder-strap through the hole in her seat that's there for that purpose, so it's an exact fit.


----------



## Minxie (Apr 15, 2008)

IIRC, there are some minivans that do just this with 5-point harnesses. Basically there is a rectangle cut-out that folds down to the seat; behind it are stored the 5-pt harnesses. That way, you can fold the seat down for the child or up for an adult. These are optional in only a few vehicles and I don't think they're standard in any, except maybe a minivan. Additionally these are still only recommended for children from ages 4 to 8; I think car seats are still considered safest for preschoolers.

http://www.preventioninstitute.org/traffic_child.html

_Integrated child safety seats have been available since the 1980s. The first U.S. auto manufacturer to install integrated child safety seats was Chrysler in 1992. Currently, of the 251 different 2002 vehicle makes reviewed by NHTSA for safety features, only 14, roughly 5%, offered built-in child safety seats as an option. Only one vehicle, the 2002 Chevrolet Venture, provided built-in child safety seats as a standard feature_


----------



## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

A 2 or 3 year old is absolutely not safe in a booster.

Read this.


----------



## cognito (Nov 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
A 2 or 3 year old is absolutely not safe in a booster.

Read this.









:

The man is an economist & by no means a safety expert. His research was flawed, his facts are untrue & he really doesn't have anyone's best interest at heart except his own. You can make numerical data say whatever you want. Unfortunately, you can't change the pain & suffering of an injured child or family that lost a LO. Controversy sells & that is what people like him are counting on.

Just search 'seatbelt syndrome' & you'll soon realize that kiddos who live through accidents can suffer horrific injuries that last a lifetime. Boosters help the lap portion fit properly & safely. Hips bones aren't fully developed in kids.

His experiment only showed what happened with the belts being used correctly. How many 2 & 3 yr olds sit still in the car, are always sitting properly & never fall asleep. Plus I'm 24yo, 5'3" & the shoulder belt doesn't fit me properly in most vehicles.


----------



## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

Yeah, we have a fold-down seat like that in the middle of my car's backseat, and I think it is great for trips where I need to transport a 6-10 yr. old in my car, but for under-5s, they need a 5-pt. harness, preferably with side impact protection. And even 6+ yr. olds are better off in a harness or a good SIP booster. My big for their age 2.5 and 5.5 yr. olds are in 5-pt. harnesses and will be until 7ish and then go to a high-back booster. My tall 2.5 yr. old just had to turn forward-facing, but was rear-facing until he hit 33 lbs. We rarely use the built in booster because it just isn't as safe as the carseats and boosters you can buy separately. It'd be great if it was.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
A 2 or 3 year old is absolutely not safe in a booster.

Read this.

I read it. I found it annoying that the writer seems to perceive some parents as uneducated dolts who are looking for any excuse not to buy their children carseats.

As mentioned by the original writer, or one of the commenters, Levitt's goal wasn't to persuade parents to break the law and quit putting their children over 2 in carseats, but to persuade the public (including car-manufacturers and policy-makers) to look at his research-findings, and consider a simple, low-cost solution for child car safety.

In some ways, it seems like it would increase safety if car manufacturers started putting fold-down cushions in backseats (which would be no problem if an adult were using the seat, as the cushion could just be folded back up), since sometimes parents and children may find themselves riding with someone else in a situation they didn't plan for.

By the way, the reason Levitt did his own research (something commented on in your link) was that the crash-test places didn't want to touch this with a 10-foot pole; they said most of their funding comes from carseat-manufacturers.

I'd think the carseat-manufacturers would welcome such research, if they honestly believed that more complicated and expensive solutions were the best way to ensure safety, because if this were really true the research would bear it out: If they felt Levitt's research was skewed, they could do their own counter-study. It makes me wonders whose best interest *they* have at heart.

This certainly doesn't mean I'd break the law or do anything risky with my own kids. I'm not saying Levitt's research has me "convinced" -- it's just interesting to me, and something I wish the American policy-makers were more willing to look into.


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

5pt harnesses are safer for EVERYONE. No way I'd take a step down in safety that significant for my children if I didn't HAVE to.

-Angela


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
5pt harnesses are safer for EVERYONE. No way I'd take a step down in safety that significant for my children if I didn't HAVE to.

-Angela

I don't think that the freedom to consider another option would cause manufacturers to stop producing 5pt harnesses, or prevent parents who deemed them safer from buying them. They'd continue to be produced as long as the market was there for them.


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I don't think that the freedom to consider another option would cause manufacturers to stop producing 5pt harnesses, or prevent parents who deemed them safer from buying them. They'd continue to be produced as long as the market was there for them.

Following that line of thinking- why not just make carseats optional?

Bad idea.

Some minimum standards are needed.

And all children need to be in 5pt harnesses until at least 4 or 5 years old- MINIMUM.

-Angela


----------



## roxyrox (Sep 11, 2006)

I don't like the idea of 2yo's being strapped in with the adult belt as described in the op as it is too easy for children to take off themselves. However, my local taxi firm has cars where one of the seats folds down like described in the op only it folds down and there is a 5pt harness. I think these seats are great and I would love if they came as standard in other cars.


----------



## cancat (Jun 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 

In some ways, it seems like it would increase safety if car manufacturers started putting fold-down cushions in backseats (which would be no problem if an adult were using the seat, as the cushion could just be folded back up), since sometimes parents and children may find themselves riding with someone else in a situation they didn't plan for.

By the way, the reason Levitt did his own research (something commented on in your link) was that the crash-test places didn't want to touch this with a 10-foot pole; they said most of their funding comes from carseat-manufacturers.


3 things:

- the built-in seats they have now do not fit the majority of kids very well, and are not very adjustable. There is a company in the states that sell seats that replace your entire back seat, with integrated carseats, which is an interesting idea, but very expensive.

- His research does not take into consideration the safety of extended rear-facing at all

- Canada does its own independent testing of all carseats IN ADDITION to the testing done by the manufacturer. Our standards are getting tougher rather than looser, and there's really no money in it for the government at all (except the money saved by health canada for all the kids saved by carseats, of course







).

-Levitt is trying to sell books. Carseats drive parents NUTS, and its very tempting to believe research that they are not necessary; however he is not an expert, and the "small" benefit that he admits to has saved many children's lives.


----------



## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I read it. I found it annoying that the writer seems to perceive some parents as uneducated dolts who are looking for any excuse not to buy their children carseats.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
As mentioned by the original writer, or one of the commenters, Levitt's goal wasn't to persuade parents to break the law and quit putting their children over 2 in carseats, but to persuade the public (including car-manufacturers and policy-makers) to look at his research-findings, and consider a simple, low-cost solution for child car safety.

True, and while you might have read it and said "cool, that's interesting!" there are parents who read this and go take little Johnny and put him in a booster at 2 years old because one random guy says it's safe. You also said in your OP that your 3 year old is in a booster, and like I said it's not safe just because one guy thinks so.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
By the way, the reason Levitt did his own research (something commented on in your link) was that the crash-test places didn't want to touch this with a 10-foot pole; they said most of their funding comes from carseat-manufacturers.

This is absolutely untrue. There are two groups that conduct crash tests for car seats: the carseat manufacturers themselves prior to releasing a seat, and NHTSA, which is the federal government. Once and awhile some other group comes along and decides to do their own crash testing, like this guy and Consumer Reports. Both just confuse the general public and don't accomplish anything.

As a CPST, this Freakonomics crap just really chaps my hide. I'm working so hard to make kids safer and get them in safe seats and then some random guy comes along and gets tons of press saying that 2 year olds are safe in boosters. It's like banging my head against a brick wall.


----------



## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

wow...yeh, i can see this having devastating effects.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
True, and while you might have read it and said "cool, that's interesting!" there are parents who read this and go take little Johnny and put him in a booster at 2 years old because one random guy says it's safe.

Again, I don't see why there has to be such a pessimistic view of parents' intelligence.

Quote:

You also said in your OP that your 3 year old is in a booster, and like I said it's not safe just because one guy thinks so.
We were doing the booster (with a back) before I'd even heard of this guy.

Quote:

This is absolutely untrue. There are two groups that conduct crash tests for car seats: the carseat manufacturers themselves prior to releasing a seat, and NHTSA, which is the federal government.
Well, I only listened to his talk one time, so maybe I got mixed up on what he was saying. My understanding is that the only way he could get a place to let him run the tests, was to pay a really high fee and promise them total anonymity.

Quote:

Once and awhile some other group comes along and decides to do their own crash testing, like this guy and Consumer Reports. Both just confuse the general public and don't accomplish anything.
I don't see that it has to be confusing, to look at other options for car safety. What I see it accomplishing, is encouraging people to question everything and look into everything for themselves. Which I see as a good thing.

Quote:

As a CPST, this Freakonomics crap just really chaps my hide. I'm working so hard to make kids safer and get them in safe seats and then some random guy comes along and gets tons of press saying that 2 year olds are safe in boosters. It's like banging my head against a brick wall.
Respectfully, maybe this isn't a wall you need to be banging your head on. Maybe it wouldn't hurt to believe in parents a bit more.


----------



## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Again, I don't see why there has to be such a pessimistic view of parents' intelligence.

i think its because of the statistics that close to 80% of car seats are installed incorrectly. If parents were so intelligent re: car seat safety, it wouldnt be that high.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
We were doing the booster (with a back) before I'd even heard of this guy.

you can do what you like with your child, but coming to the family safety board and posting that you have your 3 year old in a booster (im assuming that you mean a booster that does not have a 5 point harness...b/c i see that as a source of confusion w/ some posts here) is just asking to be gently told that you do not have your dd in as safe a seat as possible. Im very confused about your description of how your 3 year old is restrained, but i know that my 2.5 is still RF'ing and i suspect he may be at 3 still. Even if he has to be FF at 3, he will be in a 5 pt. harness b/c thats the safest i can get in the US. If I could RF him to 45 lbs, i definitely would but unfortunately there are no seats with a weight limit over 35 lbs. in teh US. It has been proven that RFing is safest, but after that, the 5 point harness should be used. I'm not sure your reasoning if you have her in a seat belt secured booster.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I don't see that it has to be confusing, to look at other options for car safety. What I see it accomplishing, is encouraging people to question everything and look into everything for themselves. Which I see as a good thing.

have you ever visited teh car seat safety board? parents are very confused about car seats. I consider myself to be a fairly educated person (well, as far as education goes....8.5 years of college); however, since i visited the car seat board i have learned sooo much. Its not "intuition" and most parents dont read their car seat manuals (i never did prior to a few years ago) and most ppl dont know that LATCH has a limit...most ppl dont understand not to use the "after market" products (dont want to get into a debate about that but its NOT recommended). Most ppl will turn their car seat FF'ing at 1 and 20 lbs even though its not the safest way to restrain a small child. The information about car seat safety is out there if you look for it but most ppl dont...they just do what their friends say to do (i am NOT saying anyone here...but i am using "most" to refer to the estimated 80% who install car seats incorrectly. Putting information out there that is confusing and not well researched is going to confuse ppl even more.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Respectfully, maybe this isn't a wall you need to be banging your head on. Maybe it wouldn't hurt to believe in parents a bit more.

I am very glad she is banging her head....she is probably one of the ones who convinced me to RF to the extent of my seat and who taught me about the issues of car seats on the market now and the ones that are coming out. She is probably one of the ones who has led to me putting my 10 year old in a booster seat even though he had been out of any type of restraint for a few years now. She is probably one of the ppl whose "head banging" led to making my children safer. If it weren't for ppl like her....my children wouldn't be as safe as they are right now.

I believe it will hurt to simply "believe in parents". It hard to do so when you are at a stop light at an intersection and see a kid sticking his head out the window like a little puppy (probably around 5 years old). How do you trust parents to be so careful about which car seats are safest when many times these kids are not even restrained?


----------



## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Respectfully, maybe this isn't a wall you need to be banging your head on. Maybe it wouldn't hurt to believe in parents a bit more.


It has nothing to do with "believing in parents". It is that 5-point harnesses are safer. It is that even *if* 3-point harnesses provided adequate restraint for 25-pound crash test dummies, toddlers do not sit still as crash test dummies (they fidget, they fall asleep and slump) and therefore need extra points of contact to keep them in proper position. I don't "believe in parents". I believe in physics.


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

:

My dd will be 4 in a month- no WAY I'd let her ride in a booster. No way. Not around the block.

She was rf until a couple of months ago. She will be harnessed for a LONG time.

I don't understand how you can argue for parents' intelligence in making these decisions when you clearly do not understand the basic physics behind them.

-Angela


----------



## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Quote:

Respectfully, maybe this isn't a wall you need to be banging your head on. Maybe it wouldn't hurt to believe in parents a bit more.
Believe in parents more? Um, you have your three year old in a booster. Three year olds don't belong in boosters. Now you know that, are you going to do something different? Because then, yes, I would believe in parents more. I know three types of parents currently when it comes to car seats, those who do their own research and find out stuff like rf as long as possible, three year olds don't belong in boosters, harness as long as possible, much older kids usually still need boosters, booster until 4'9". That sort of stuff. I call those the careful parents.

Then there are the parents who don't research that stuff for some reason, do what they do, which may include keeping kids in seats they don't fit anymore, putting them into something they aren't big enough for yet, don't have their seat properly installed, or checked but then some careful parent tells them about basic best practices with seat belts and then they gladly change their ways.

Then there are the parents who do the above, get someone to tell them best practices and decide to keep doing what they are doing despite it being potentially harmful even deadly. These folks include parents who let their kids be unrestrained, or not in car seats at very young ages. Some of these parents may not have been told explicitly that their kid at such and such age needs to be restrained or in a car seat but it's just common sense really so I don't excuse them. They obviously see kids in car seats, they MUST know something is up with that right? They choose to be ignorant.

I would say probably at least 80% of parents fall in the last two categories. CPST's work hard to get to those folks, especially the second group. The third group they do bang their head on walls for, because despite their best efforts they don't change their ways. Of course they are trying to move some of that 80% (and I would suggest that most parents fall into the second category, they do better when they know better, and obviously want to have their kids be as safe as they can be) into the 20% of the first category.


----------



## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Again, I don't see why there has to be such a pessimistic view of parents' intelligence.

Because people actually think this guy knows what he it talking about...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
We were doing the booster (with a back) before I'd even heard of this guy.

Doesn't mean it's safe.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Well, I only listened to his talk one time, so maybe I got mixed up on what he was saying. My understanding is that the only way he could get a place to let him run the tests, was to pay a really high fee and promise them total anonymity.

Makes sense, since he is just setting them up for a lawsuit.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I don't see that it has to be confusing, to look at other options for car safety. What I see it accomplishing, is encouraging people to question everything and look into everything for themselves. Which I see as a good thing.

He's not giving them other options. He's completely contradicting everything that SafeKids, CHOP, Riley's, and every other CPS agency in the world is trying to accomplish.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Respectfully, maybe this isn't a wall you need to be banging your head on. Maybe it wouldn't hurt to believe in parents a bit more.

Yeah, I'll try that next time I'm at a car seat checkup trying to explain to parents that no, having a 5 month old baby is not ok FF, and having a tiny 2 year old in a booster is not ok even though it's more convenient for the parent


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Makes sense, since he is just setting them up for a lawsuit.

But why would there be a lawsuit -- were they breaking some kind of law by allowing him to run tests there?


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Okay, I just did a little checking. I obviously do need to learn more about this. In my state, children under 40 pounds are supposed to be in carseats, not boosters. So, when my youngest first started using her carseat as a booster several months back, she wasn't (quite) 40 pounds yet (but she is now) -- but the straps were just too tight to go around her comfortably.

We'd bought her seat with the understanding that it worked for children 'til such time as they just needed a booster.

We actually did have her rear-facing 'til she got to 20 pounds, which I think is the point where our carseat instructions said she had to go forward-facing. I knew that rear-facing was safer, so kept her rear-facing for as long as it was safe weight-wise.

So, I understand that a 3-pt harness is where you're wearing a shoulder-strap and lapbelt -- and I guess 5-pts would be where a child's got the 2 straps coming over the shoulders, coming together at around the chest, and then latching into the buckle between the legs? That doesn't seem quite like 5-pts, though, so maybe I'm understanding it wrong.

I'm wondering, how many carseats do you recommend buying for one child?


----------



## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 

I'm wondering, how many carseats do you recommend buying for one child?

IMHO it woudl depend on how many different cars she is in. for my son, i think i will only have to purchase 2 seats....he was a perfect fit for the MA (although many babies dont fit in them...some do...he was big enough weight and height wise). we replaced the MA w/ the Blvd. after a bit of research and after a fortuitous accident that my son was not involved in but the car seat was (if i had to do it over again i would have purchased the BV in the beginning). After he's done w/ the BV, he will go into teh Frontier....i suspect that will last him until he's done....but his brother has an Olie that he could use if he wanted...when he's much much older...like 9 or 10.

im not counting car seats for other cars though. but for one car, i would say that many ppl could get by w/ 2 carseats....however, 3 max if you want to add an infant bucket, which are all about the same and could be very inexpensive and only used for 2-3 months until the baby was big enough for a convertible (perhaps longer for smaller babies but i think alot of babies are ok at a few months old...6 tops...for a convertible (and no, not all..not what im saying).


----------



## cognito (Nov 30, 2007)

You buy as many seats as it takes to keep you child safe. My toddler is 18mo, 28lbs & about to get his 3rd round of carseats. He started with an infant seat for the first few months. Then convertible seats that RF & FF. He's still RFing for a while longer. Then he will get a FFing seat with a higher weight limit than 40lbs that converts to a booster. Since my baby is close enough in age he will be handed down seats from his older brother, but if they weren't close enough in age then I would just buy more carseats.

I'm glad you're realizing that there is more to be learned. The instructions for you carseat & vehicle are a good place to start. What carseats do you have? Some seats have harnesses that are outgrown before the child is ready for a booster meaning you will need another harnessed seat. Laws are only the absolute minimums. There's more than that to keep kids safest.

5 points = 2 at the shoulder + 2 at the hips + 1 at the crotch.


----------



## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
O
We actually did have her rear-facing 'til she got to 20 pounds, which I think is the point where our carseat instructions said she had to go forward-facing. I knew that rear-facing was safer, so kept her rear-facing for as long as it was safe weight-wise.

No, 20 pounds is the bare minimum. Car seats can RF to 35 pounds (it sounds like you have a 3-in-1).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
So, I understand that a 3-pt harness is where you're wearing a shoulder-strap and lapbelt -- and I guess 5-pts would be where a child's got the 2 straps coming over the shoulders, coming together at around the chest, and then latching into the buckle between the legs? That doesn't seem quite like 5-pts, though, so maybe I'm understanding it wrong.

The 5 points in a 5 pt harness are: shoulder, shoulder, hip, hip, crotch.

Quote:

I'm wondering, how many carseats do you recommend buying for one child?
It really depends on your need. Right now I have one car seat for each child since we only have one car. I do have a spare in the closet in case we have an accident. Some people have one car seat in each of three cars (mom's, dad's, grandparent's). If you have two cars that your child rides in frequently, I would suggest getting a seat for each car instead of having to switch car seats.

ETA: or did you mean infant, convertible etc? In that case, I don't see the need to get more than two, if you choose a good one right off the bat. The 3-in-1 seats are horrid and you would need to buy a new seat when that is outgrown, but if you got a good convertible with nice tall top slots, you could conceivably use that from birth until it expires at 6 years old. At that point you could either buy a booster or get a seat like the Nautilus or Frontier that would keep the child harnessed for another year or two and then convert to a booster.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cognito* 
You buy as many seats as it takes to keep you child safe.

Yeah, I figured that -- I was just wondering how many someone usually buys, if they're following all the recommendations on this forum.

Quote:

What carseats do you have?
We have a Graco booster for our 8yo. Our 3yo is still using the Safety First carseat we bought around the time of her birth. It actually did have the 5-pt harness -- I'd forgot about the straps that went over her hips, but noticed them when I went out to the car just now, to see what brands we had.

I can't remember exactly when, but sometime after she turned 2, the straps just became too tight. We'd loosened them as far as we could. Since this carseat has a booster option, we thought it must be time to stop using the harness. This seat has holes above each shoulder, so that whichever side the child is on, the shoulder-strap can be threaded through.

I think she was actually over 35 lbs. by this time (she was maybe 2 1/2, and she's a tall, large child) -- but apparently she should have still been in the harness until 40 lbs (we should have got a new one, as I wasn't willing to make her uncomfortable). She's a little over 40 lbs. now.


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Yeah, I figured that -- I was just wondering how many someone usually buys, if they're following all the recommendations on this forum.

We have a Graco booster for our 8yo. Our 3yo is still using the Safety First carseat we bought around the time of her birth. It actually did have the 5-pt harness -- I'd forgot about the straps that went over her hips, but noticed them when I went out to the car just now, to see what brands we had.

I can't remember exactly when, but sometime after she turned 2, the straps just became too tight. We'd loosened them as far as we could. Since this carseat has a booster option, we thought it must be time to stop using the harness. This seat has holes above each shoulder, so that whichever side the child is on, the shoulder-strap can be threaded through.

I think she was actually over 35 lbs. by this time (she was maybe 2 1/2, and she's a tall, large child) -- but apparently she should have still been in the harness until 40 lbs.

What you did was unsafe and put your child in danger. Unfortunately many parents don't realize how to best keep their children safe in the car.

No way a 2 yr old belongs in a booster. At 2 they should really still be rear facing (if they're under 35lbs)

I have never heard of a child outgrowing a carseat by the straps being too tight- but I suppose it's possible with some seats.

3 in 1 seats are a poor choice and a waste of money.

As to your how many seats question- it depends. If your goal was as few seats as possible, you could start with a newborn in a radian. It would last until the child was ready for a booster (depending on their age/size in relation to the expiration of the seat)

My child- dd was in an infant seat, then a wizard (which was replaced by the insurance company after a rear-ending with a boulevard) She is currently nearly 4. The boulevard will last her at least another year, maybe 2 or more. At that point I will get her a harnessed seat - either a high weight dedicated seat (like the regent) or one that converts to a booster (like the frontier or nautilus) So for our main car she will have used (excluding the seat replaced, as the original would have lasted as long) 3 or 4 seats.

-Angela


----------



## Minxie (Apr 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I'm wondering, how many carseats do you recommend buying for one child?

Another data point for you: we started with the Britax Companion Infant Seat, which my boy quickly outgrew (he was almost 11 lbs when he was born). That was Seat #1 and was NOT cheap at just under $200.

At about four months, he moved into a Britax Decathlon (Seat #2; $300). I bought a spare Decathlon (Seat #3; another $300) for his godmother who cared for him while I worked.

He's two years old and I've spent almost $1k just in car seats but I don't regret it one bit. His car seat was _the_ MOST IMPORTANT purchase for me and the one for which I did the most research.









DS will be in the Decathlon until he reaches the upper limit of 65 lbs or the height limit. He's in the 90-95th percentile so he'll probably hit the limits a bit more quickly than other kids. At that point, I'll probably buy a Britax Regent (Seat #4) unless they come out with something better in the interim.

Also, someone else mentioned something about their child not wanting to be in a harness. For me, and I am aware this sounds a bit harsh, it is NON-NEGOTIABLE. I'd rather have DS alive and _hating_ me than dead because I gave in on such an important concern.

*I* don't always feel safe with just a lap-shoulder belt and I am a fairly big person (not tall, but plump







). There's a reason that race car drivers and rollercoasters use 5-pt harnesses, and it isn't 'cause they just look so darn cool.


----------



## goodheartedmama (Feb 1, 2007)

Quote:

Respectfully, maybe this isn't a wall you need to be banging your head on. Maybe it wouldn't hurt to believe in parents a bit more.

I'm sorry, but it's hard to believe in parents, or believe that a parent is educated, if they decide to put a 3 year old in a booster. Sorry if that hurts your feelings, but it's true. Someone who is educated would know better. You hardly seem educated on carseat safety, nor do you seem to care.







:


----------



## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

I didn't realize most babies don't fit in Marathons until they are not newborns. Given that, we had a Marathon from the day our son was born. He was rear facing till about 2.5, growing out of rfing by weight. He has been ff ever since, and just recently is almost ready to grow out of it by height. He is four months from turning 5, 42 inches tall, and 45 lbs. We bought him a Regent, and he fits nicely in that and should for quite some time. He can still use the Marathon but he could outgrow that any day as he is just EVEN with the slots. If he outgrows the Regent too early, we will buy him a backless or regular booster, depends on how tall and how much he weighs. I plan to keep him in something until he is 4'9". I am very happy with the fact that he is still in a five point harness because he still falls asleep regularly in the car, and keeping him in position would be impossible in a booster. I have enough anxiety about some of the older kids who fall asleep in my car in either a booster or regular seat belt. One is ten and doesn't need a booster any longer, and the other two are 8 and 7 and sit in backless boosters in my car.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goodheartedmama* 
You hardly seem educated on carseat safety, nor do you seem to care.







:

You may be trying to get me on the defensive by implying that I don't care about my precious children. But I don't see a reason to even go there with you.

I realize that car-travel is very risky. We've cultivated a mostly-walking lifestyle here -- it helps that we live in an urban area with lots in walking-distance. We're a one-car family and my husband needs the car for work, so my girls and I have friends visit here, or walk to the park, or walk to friends' houses that are in walking-distance. They play a lot with kids in the neighborhood. And our church, doctor's office, and homeschool-group's meeting place are also in easy walking-distance.

It's hard to say what's more risky for a young child -- daily car-travel in a 5-pt harness, or a car-trip maybe once a week in a booster-seat. Still, I don't frown on the parents who do daily car-travel with their children, because I realize this may be the best way for them to meet their children's needs.

I'll certainly be looking into this more. I know one poster said I don't seem to understand physics, which is true, I've never studied physics. So maybe that's why it doesn't make sense to me that booster-seats are seen as so risky for a 3yo.

I don't know a lot about car-accident injuries. However, I have a niece that was badly injured in a car-accident several years ago, when she was 6. What I heard at that time, was that an adult in the same accident would have likely died or suffered permanent damage, but my niece made a complete recovery with no permanent damage, and the doctor said it was because children are so much more resilient, and heal so much better and faster than adults.


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I'll certainly be looking into this more. I know one poster said I don't seem to understand physics, which is true, I've never studied physics. So maybe that's why it doesn't make sense to me that booster-seats are seen as so risky for a 3yo.

I don't know a lot about car-accident injuries. However, I have a niece that was badly injured in a car-accident several years ago, when she was 6. What I heard at that time, was that an adult in the same accident would have likely died or suffered permanent damage, but my niece made a complete recovery with no permanent damage, and the doctor said it was because children are so much more resilient, and heal so much better and faster than adults.

You need to do more research. I'm the poster who pointed out that you don't seem to understand the physics involved.

Yes, children ARE more resilient in some ways, they are also more fragile in others.

-Angela


----------



## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I'm wondering, how many carseats do you recommend buying for one child?

For us, it will probably end up being 3 for each child.
1 - infant bucket seat
2 - convertible seat (to keep the child rear-facing as long as possible)
3 - Britax Regent or Graco Nautilus (to keep the child in a five point harness as long as possible)

The infant bucket seat could possibly be skipped, but newborns don't always fit well in convertibles. I just like the convenience of getting baby strapped in before going out to the car when they are that little.

Cost wise, it can sound daunting. However, I sold each of my car seats for about half what I paid, and then watched for sales. My dd is now in a Regent, and we have spent about $350 total on her car seats.

(I know that some people on the board don't agree with selling/buying used car seats, but I knew my seats were safe and had years before their expiration dates. I gave full info on them to the buyers, and feel like I was giving someone a chance to have a good car seat at half the price.)


----------



## goodheartedmama (Feb 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
You may be trying to get me on the defensive by implying that I don't care about my precious children. But I don't see a reason to even go there with you.

I realize that car-travel is very risky. We've cultivated a mostly-walking lifestyle here -- it helps that we live in an urban area with lots in walking-distance. We're a one-car family and my husband needs the car for work, so my girls and I have friends visit here, or walk to the park, or walk to friends' houses that are in walking-distance. They play a lot with kids in the neighborhood. And our church, doctor's office, and homeschool-group's meeting place are also in easy walking-distance.

It's hard to say what's more risky for a young child -- daily car-travel in a 5-pt harness, or a car-trip maybe once a week in a booster-seat. Still, I don't frown on the parents who do daily car-travel with their children, because I realize this may be the best way for them to meet their children's needs.

I'll certainly be looking into this more. I know one poster said I don't seem to understand physics, which is true, I've never studied physics. So maybe that's why it doesn't make sense to me that booster-seats are seen as so risky for a 3yo.

I don't know a lot about car-accident injuries. However, I have a niece that was badly injured in a car-accident several years ago, when she was 6. What I heard at that time, was that an adult in the same accident would have likely died or suffered permanent damage, but my niece made a complete recovery with no permanent damage, and the doctor said it was because children are so much more resilient, and heal so much better and faster than adults.

I didn't say you don't care about your children. But you don't seem to care about carseat safety. One weekly trip in a harness is a million times safer than a weekly trip in a seatbelt. That's common sense.


----------



## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Again, I don't see why there has to be such a pessimistic view of parents' intelligence.

It sounds like you've started to understand why that is. You yourself had gotten bad info and couldn't recognize it for what it was at first. :-/ This is all too common.

What I see people say over and over and over again is "But if it's not safe [to turn a baby around at one year/to put a toddler in a booster/to put a young child in just a seat belt], why do they LET us do it?" "They" is the government regulators. These are parents who are unaware (as you were) of what the instructions for proper use of their own carseats are.

There's lots of misunderstanding of the advice that is out there. "One year and 20 pounds" is the MINIMUM guideline for front-facing. It's the law in many jurisdictions that a child must be AT LEAST 12 months AND AT LEAST 20 pounds to face forward. The AAP has a long policy document stating this as well, which goes on to say that rear-facing is much safer and should be continued until the child reaches the maximums for the seat.

And yet... PEDIATRICIANS tell parents "Oh, he's 20 pounds, you have to turn him around now" or "Oh, he's a year old, you have to turn him around now" even though the child doesn't meet the other requirement and hasn't reached the maximums for their seat. Police officers and fire fighters also will give out this bad and wrong advice when parents go to them for "expert" input on how to install their carseats properly. No, not *all* pediatricians, police officers, or fire fighters... but any is too many.

The car seat techs (and us groupies ;-) have the deck stacked against them in even getting the correct info about how to use carseats into the hands of parents, as you can see. And then they run into too many parents who are all too willing to believe they "have to" turn their infant around or put their toddler in a booster. It is more convenient. It is cheaper. But it's NOT safe. It's very hard to get that across.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I don't see that it has to be confusing, to look at other options for car safety. What I see it accomplishing, is encouraging people to question everything and look into everything for themselves. Which I see as a good thing.

Sure, it's a good thing to have parents getting good info. But look at your own situation: you heard what Steven Levitt had to say, and it sounded authoritative and reasonable... and it took a whole lot of techs and others saying something different to even get you looking at the manual that came with the car seat. And you're actually *trying* to get info! How much easier would it have been if the first thing you'd heard was someone agitating for standards like they have in Sweden, where they require children to be rear-facing until age four?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Respectfully, maybe this isn't a wall you need to be banging your head on. Maybe it wouldn't hurt to believe in parents a bit more.

It *is* believing in parents to bang one's head against this wall. It means she believes that parents have the best interests of their children at heart, and really will eventually see the light and help their kids be safe.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Okay, I just did a little checking. I obviously do need to learn more about this. In my state, children under 40 pounds are supposed to be in carseats, not boosters. So, when my youngest first started using her carseat as a booster several months back, she wasn't (quite) 40 pounds yet (but she is now) -- but the straps were just too tight to go around her comfortably.

We'd bought her seat with the understanding that it worked for children 'til such time as they just needed a booster.

We actually did have her rear-facing 'til she got to 20 pounds, which I think is the point where our carseat instructions said she had to go forward-facing. I knew that rear-facing was safer, so kept her rear-facing for as long as it was safe weight-wise.

Chances are it was 22 pounds, not 20. If the harness straps are too tight, she's probably also too tall for the shell, or they're not set right. Have you raised them? Most straps have several settings. Also, in forward-facing mode, for the seat to restrain properly, the straps should go into the slots AT or ABOVE the height of her shoulders... so she had probably outgrown that harness by height a loooong time ago. This info should all be in the manual for the carseat.

There are a lot of seats that will tell you they'll last to such-and-such a point.... but there's a high degree of variability in child growth patterns. A seat must fit by both height and weight; while weight is very standard (35 pounds is 35 pounds), children can be long-torsoed or short-torsoed, which will change how a seat fits them. A 42" child may fit in a Marathon with room to grow or may be too tall for it, depending on the proportions of their body.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I'm wondering, how many carseats do you recommend buying for one child?

Minimum is two. Some newborns will fit some convertibles, but since their shoulders should really be at or above the bottom slots (which is the opposite as the rule for front-facing), many don't. An infant seat will pretty much always fit a full-term newborn, but won't allow them to remain rear-facing for as long as a convertible will.

For our first child, we've bought him two seats, and that's probably all he'll need (we didn't know about newborns not fitting convertibles, so he was in one since birth; he's now in a Frontier, which is a five-point harness that converts to a booster). Our second child, however, we'll probably only ever buy one seat for; he's in an infant seat we borrowed from a friend, and will be in his brother's hand-me-down convertible until he's 2. Then we have to buy him his own seat (probably another convertible, since he'll still probably be able to rear-face), and when he outgrows that, he'll get his brother's Frontier as a hand-me-down.

So for one child, two to three separate devices; for two children, a total of three to five (one infant bucket, one or two convertibles, one or two high-weight harness seats that convert to belt-positioning boosters). It depends somewhat on the spacing between the children; the more there is, the less their needs will overlap (so they can hand down seats more easily), but since seats expire, too much age difference will reduce the usable life of the seat(s).

Hope that answers your question!


----------



## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Rachel is on her 3rd round of seats. I had an infant seat, then a convertible, then harnessed boosters. At 3, she has outgrown the harness in one booster, but the main one I use is good to 48 lbs. There is no way I can afford another seat. If I can in the next year, I will get one that harnesses higher. If not, she'll go completely to boosters at 4. (unless she is still under 48 lbs, and not too tall, which could happen.) She's about 40 lbs now.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
Chances are it was 22 pounds, not 20.

I actually think I got mixed up when I was talking about the weights. I don't have a very good memory for numerical stuff. Now I'm thinking she actually was 30-35 lbs before I turned her forward facing. I know she was well past a year, anyhow. I don't think she was forward-facing for very long before she outgrew the harness.

Quote:

If the harness straps are too tight, she's probably also too tall for the shell, or they're not set right. Have you raised them? Most straps have several settings. Also, in forward-facing mode, for the seat to restrain properly, the straps should go into the slots AT or ABOVE the height of her shoulders... so she had probably outgrown that harness by height a loooong time ago. This info should all be in the manual for the carseat.
It probably was, and tall as both my girls are, I think they both outgrew their harnesses by height pretty early on. If we had it to do over, we'd probably just start out with infant-seats for each, then get child-seats that accommodate taller, heavier children, and work rear-facing for much longer. At this point we'll have to figure out the best option for our children now.


----------



## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
At this point we'll have to figure out the best option for our children now.

If you would like any recommendations, we would be happy to help


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
If you would like any recommendations, we would be happy to help









Thanks!


----------



## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I'm wondering, how many carseats do you recommend buying for one child?

If necessary, it could be done with two seats, <$200 total -- Cosco Scenera from birth to 35 pounds RF and to 40 pounds FF, then Graco Nautilus to 65 (realistically, more like 55-60) pounds harnessed FF and boostered to 100.

ETA that there are many MANY other options as well, but I needed to point out that keeping a child safely restrained doesn't have to break the bank.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

This thread has jarred my memory about something I obviously should have thought of sooner.

A few months ago, dh was in a car-accident that totalled our car, and both girls' seats (but not the girls) were in the car with him. Neither of us ever thought of needing to replace them. I don't think we kept receipts, and it's probably too late to get insurance to replace them. And at this exact moment, we don't even have an extra $50-$100 to replace them with anything.

So, now I'm wondering what kinds of risks there are to using a carseat (as a booster) that's been in an accident? I understand that if you're using the harness, the risk is that it won't work and your child won't be properly restrained if there's another accident.

But, for instance, our 8yo is just sitting on the backless booster, and fitting well into the shoulder-and-lapbelt. What are the risks of using this (basically a raising-up cushion) after it's been through an accident?

Now, our 3yo is using her carseat as a booster-seat -- it still has the back on it. The shoulder-belt threads through the carseat slot that is there for that purpose. So, if we were in an accident, would the risk be that her restraint would be no different from just being strapped into the adult lap-and-shoulder belt -- or could she actually get injured by pieces of carseat coming apart and jabbing into her back?

Does anyone know about the kinds of injuries that can happen with children using _booster-seats_ that have been through accidents?

I'm asking in case we need to do any car-travel before we can afford to buy the Graco Nautilus for our 3yo and a new booster for our 8yo. We do have some dental work coming up in early August for our 3yo, which I really can't keep putting off. But technically we could get there on the bus, it just takes a lot longer.


----------



## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

The risk is that they won't do what they need to do. There is probably less risk to using a belt-positioning booster than a harnessed seat, but there is still risk. The seat could break and then your child would not be properly positioned -- the seatbelt could cut into the neck or abdomen.

I am not trying to be a big meanie, but your posts are one reason we (CPSTs and advocates) don't "believe in parents". I do believe that you, and many other parents like you, love your children and want what's best for them. I don't believe that you *know* what's best in terms of child passenger safety: you had a 2-year-old out of a harness and you've been using seats that were in a totalled vehicle. Both of those are extremely unsafe.


----------



## nevaehsmommy (Aug 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 

My 3yo still uses her infant carseat, which came with a booster-seat option, so we're basically depending on the adult seatbelt (not the carseat) to protect her. By the time she was about 2, we'd loosened the carseat straps as loose as they could go, and they'd become too tight, _so we moved the carseat straps to the sides of her body so she didn't have to lean back_ on them, and started threading the adult shoulder-belt through the carseat-hole above her left shoulder, and just buckled her in like we do our 8yo (well, 8yo does it herself now).



With the Infant to toddler to booster you also need to take the harness out of the seat when using it as a booseter. If you look at the back of the seat there is a "y" shaped clip to undo the harness. Unthread that if you choose to use it as a booster instead of the harness.

Seat belts are also one use time crash items. Sooo if your car was in any sort of crash you need to have the seat belts replaced.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nevaehsmommy* 
With the Infant to toddler to booster you also need to take the harness out of the seat when using it as a booseter. If you look at the back of the seat there is a "y" shaped clip to undo the harness. Unthread that if you choose to use it as a booster instead of the harness.

Thanks! I'll do that.

Quote:

Seat belts are also one use time crash items. Sooo if your car was in any sort of crash you need to have the seat belts replaced.
Well, it was totalled so we had to get another car.


----------



## nevaehsmommy (Aug 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 

My 3yo still uses her infant carseat, which came with a booster-seat option, so we're basically depending on the adult seatbelt (not the carseat) to protect her. By the time she was about 2, we'd loosened the carseat straps as loose as they could go, and they'd become too tight, _so we moved the carseat straps to the sides of her body so she didn't have to lean back_ on them, and started threading the adult shoulder-belt through the carseat-hole above her left shoulder, and just buckled her in like we do our 8yo (well, 8yo does it herself now).



With the Infant to toddler to booster you also need to take the harness out of the seat when using it as a booseter. If you look at the back of the seat there is a "y" shaped clip to undo the harness. Unthread that if you choose to use it as a booster instead of the harness.

As for car seats I have had

Graco bucket seat( loaned to me)
Cosco Scenra ($40 at walmart)
Safety 1st All in one Deluxe ( bought brand new off of Craigslist, still in box with original tape $70.00 So I could keep her rear facing, she had outgrown the height on the cosco seat.)
Soon to buy a Graco Natilus, I want to keep daughter in harness until she is at least 4 years old.

So all together I will have spent around $240 on carseats. Money WELL spent in any estimation. I would rather have my daughter cry EVERY SINGLE time she gets in the car ( she loved rear facing btw) instead of having a dead or severely injured child any day.

I can understand wanting to save money. Money is VERY TIGHT for me. I live off of $600 a month. However, carseat safety is not really a place to be stingy and buy seat that are not made for your child.

For what its worth the Scenra says not to turn forward facing until the child is 34 inches tall. My daughter is barely that now. However her torso height is such that I had to get a taller shell. I dont think there are many 20 pound , 34 inch 1 year olds out there.

Do a little research from several different sources. If you are alright with what you are doing, then do it. However it sounds like you have concerns. So follow your gut and figure out what you can do to make you feel better. If you think you need to keep your daughter in a booster, no amount of pleading on here will change your mind....but do look into the issue further. Not only on here but on car-seat.org and the manufacturers website. Dont give up until you find good reliable info that sets your heart and mind at ease.

I would look into the graco natilus. It is relatively cheap. It harness up to 65 pounds (I think) and it is safer for your daughter.


----------



## nevaehsmommy (Aug 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Thanks! I'll do that.

Well, it was totalled so we had to get another car.


Sorry about the double post had a few more thoughts ( no not me







)

One more thought. I dont know if you covered this but did you get new car seats? Insurance will cover the cost many times.....they are one time crash items as well


----------



## Sparks* (Feb 3, 2008)

My volvo has a fold down "booster seat" that you use with the regular three point seat belt, but it specifically says to not use with children under 40 lbs.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nevaehsmommy* 
One more thought. I dont know if you covered this but did you get new car seats? Insurance will cover the cost many times.....they are one time crash items as well

No, we failed to think about it at the time, and now that the claim is settled I don't think we can go back and get them covered, especially since I don't think we saved any receipts or anything. But I think the Graco Nautilus does sound like a good option for our 3yo, and something affordable within the very near future.

I did want to comment on peoples' concern that Steve Levitt is doing lots of harm: Since listening to him is what prompted me to start this discussion, I can't see that it's totally harmful for someone to present another way of looking at things. Especially since I started the discussion here, where people have been overall pretty gentle and respectful, which makes it easier to listen.


----------



## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
No, we failed to think about it at the time, and now that the claim is settled I don't think we can go back and get them covered, especially since I don't think we saved any receipts or anything.

I would give a call to your insurance and see. I don't think you would need receipts on the car seats. It may be too late now, but the worst they could say is no, and you could possibly get money to get new car seats, which would be great!


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *odenata* 
I would give a call to your insurance and see. I don't think you would need receipts on the car seats. It may be too late now, but the worst they could say is no, and you could possibly get money to get new car seats, which would be great!

Okay, good idea!


----------



## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

OP - Check out this link to see the crash test differences between a child in a harnessed seat and a child in a booster. It may help you see the difference between the two.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
OP - Check out this link to see the crash test differences between a child in a harnessed seat and a child in a booster. It may help you see the difference between the two.






Yes, that is very convincing. I talked with dh, and we are going to get new carseats this weekend.


----------



## mimie (Mar 7, 2003)

mammal_mama -

I think you'll be really happy with a Graco Nautilus for your three-year-old and a new backless booster for your eight-year-old. If you need help finding a CPST to help you install your Nautilus, you can click on your state here: http://www.safekidsweb.org/events/events.asp to find a seat check event near you.


----------



## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

i was looking for something else and came across this for 5 pt harneeses:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2LFo...eature=related


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Thanks, mimie!

Does anyone know of a backless booster that works for children taller than 57"? We just realized our 8yo has almost reached the height-limit for her Graco backless booster (I think it was a Turbo); we'd initially planed on buying her another one of these, but she's 56" tall now, and it only goes up to 57" so we're wondering if she's getting too tall for a booster?


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
i was looking for something else and came across this for 5 pt harneeses:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2LFo...eature=related

Wow! How heartbreaking.


----------



## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Thanks, mimie!

Does anyone know of a backless booster that works for children taller than 57"? We just realized our 8yo has almost reached the height-limit for her Graco backless booster (I think it was a Turbo); we'd initially planed on buying her another one of these, but she's 56" tall now, and it only goes up to 57" so we're wondering if she's getting too tall for a booster?

most boosters go to 57" b/c thats what height seat belts are designed for. i dont know of any exceptions but im sure one of the CPST's will chime in.

we have the Ollie Clek for my 10 yo but he's not 57" yet (shy by a few inches).


----------



## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Here's the deal with boosters: Every step "up" is a step "down" in safety. This means from Rf to FF, from harness to high back booster, from high back to backless booster, from backless booster to seatbelt.

It's ideal to leave a child in a highback booster for as long as you can squeeze them in there, because highback boosters provide head, neck, and trunk protection. Good boosters with lots of SIP have energy-absorbing foam in the headrests and long the side. Take the back off, and you have nothing between the child and the vehicle wall.


----------



## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Here's the deal with boosters: Every step "up" is a step "down" in safety. This means from Rf to FF, from harness to high back booster, from high back to backless booster, from backless booster to seatbelt.

It's ideal to leave a child in a highback booster for as long as you can squeeze them in there, because highback boosters provide head, neck, and trunk protection. Good boosters with lots of SIP have energy-absorbing foam in the headrests and long the side. Take the back off, and you have nothing between the child and the vehicle wall.

anna,
what about a child that is 57" though? from a safety point of view...just use my son as an example. the Britax Monarch didn't work for him...it annoyed him (and kind of me but that wasnt impt) to be tipping when driving...and now he's in teh Ollie Clek...but after 57" would he still be "safe" if i kept him in it (im sure he would be ok w/ it b/c he loves it).

i agree UP TO 57" all kids...but is there any advantage to after 57" or any disadvantage to keeping them in teh booster after 57"?


----------



## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
anna,
what about a child that is 57" though? from a safety point of view...just use my son as an example. the Britax Monarch didn't work for him...it annoyed him (and kind of me but that wasnt impt) to be tipping when driving...and now he's in teh Ollie Clek...but after 57" would he still be "safe" if i kept him in it (im sure he would be ok w/ it b/c he loves it).

i agree UP TO 5'7" all kids...but is there any advantage to after 5'7" or any disadvantage to keeping them in teh booster after 5'7"?

Tippy boosters are a pain, definitely. They make LATCHable boosters now, which prevent the tipping









The height limit in boosters are just like height limits in harnessed seats--just a guideline. You can use a highback booster until the child outgrows it by height (that is, the child's shoulder is even with the belt guide at the highest setting OR the child's ears are even with the top of the headrest at the highest setting) OR weight. Then, if they still need the boost (ie don't pass the 5 step test) you use a backless booster until they pass the 5 step test OR hit the weight limit.


----------



## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
i agree UP TO 5'7" all kids...but is there any advantage to after 5'7" or any disadvantage to keeping them in teh booster after 5'7"?

Sorry, I forgot to address this.

The advantage of keeping them in a highback booster after 57" (provided of course they still fit the booster by height and weight) is the extra SIP, and the headrests keep a child in position if they still sleep in the car.

As far as disadvantages, if a child is too tall for a booster, the shoulder belt would be improperly positioned on the child's shoulder.


----------



## mimie (Mar 7, 2003)

We're confusing 57 inches and 5'7". 57 inches is 4 feet, 9 inches. 5'7" is 5 feet, 7 inches.

Most kids who are 4'9" can still fit in and benefit from a booster (particularly a backless booster).


----------



## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mimie* 
We're confusing 57 inches and 5'7". 57 inches is 4 feet, 9 inches. 5'7" is 5 feet, 7 inches.

Most kids who are 4'9" can still fit in and benefit from a booster (particularly a backless booster).









Duh









Good catch


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mimie* 
Most kids who are 4'9" can still fit in and benefit from a booster (particularly a backless booster).









Okay ... now dh has a question about dd's backless booster that's been through the car accident. He's wondering if, since she wasn't there and wasn't sitting on it, and he doesn't think it even moved off the seat during the impact -- is it likely to be too damaged for her to continue sitting on it?

We actually have the back-part still in the house (it wasn't in the car during the accident, either) -- so, now that I've learned from an_aurora about the added protection of using the back-piece for as long as it fits, I think we'll see if it still fits her with the back, and keep using the back if so.

So, you're saying that the backless booster should still be okay to use after the child exceeds the height-limit? I guess it makes sense, since I'm 5'10 and still fit in the adult shoulder-belt, that a child could benefit from a booster well beyond 4'9". That's good to know! When I saw the height-limit, and thought dd only had one more inch to go before she'd outgrow it, I wondered if there was a better option.


----------



## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Tippy boosters are a pain, definitely. They make LATCHable boosters now, which prevent the tipping









The height limit in boosters are just like height limits in harnessed seats--just a guideline. You can use a highback booster until the child outgrows it by height (that is, the child's shoulder is even with the belt guide at the highest setting OR the child's ears are even with the top of the headrest at the highest setting) OR weight. Then, if they still need the boost (ie don't pass the 5 step test) you use a backless booster until they pass the 5 step test OR hit the weight limit.

ok, so for my 10 yo (as an example), he can use the Ollie Clek as long as the seat belt fits, even though it says only up to 57" ?(its a backless booster and he hated the booster w/ a back and at 10, i feel i need to respect his preferences a bit, yk?)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Sorry, I forgot to address this.

The advantage of keeping them in a highback booster after 57" (provided of course they still fit the booster by height and weight) is the extra SIP, and the headrests keep a child in position if they still sleep in the car..

its a bit late for my 10 yo at this point, but im a bit confused about keeping kids in a highback booster after 57". i know the Frontier goes to 60" and thats the next seat my 2.5 yo will have (after he reaches 35 lbs. and has to go FF'ing). But is there another seat that is over 57" inches (booster, highback and/or backless). Also, from what i am understanding, as long as the booster seat (highback or backless) fits the child (seat belt wise), you can disregard the height limitation? sorry if im being dense about this but i havent ventured into boosters in as much detail as i have the convertibles at this point.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mimie* 
We're confusing 57 inches and 5'7". 57 inches is 4 feet, 9 inches. 5'7" is 5 feet, 7 inches.

Most kids who are 4'9" can still fit in and benefit from a booster (particularly a backless booster).









see my Q's above. and i corrected my substantive typo in my post but i guess that doesnt correct quotes...i was referring to 57" (4'9). sorry about that.


----------



## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
ok, so for my 10 yo (as an example), he can use the Ollie Clek as long as the seat belt fits, even though it says only up to 57" ?(its a backless booster and he hated the booster w/ a back and at 10, i feel i need to respect his preferences a bit, yk?)

Yes. He needs to be in a backless booster until he passes the 5 step test.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
its a bit late for my 10 yo at this point, but im a bit confused about keeping kids in a highback booster after 57". i know the Frontier goes to 60" and thats the next seat my 2.5 yo will have (after he reaches 35 lbs. and has to go FF'ing). But is there another seat that is over 57" inches (booster, highback and/or backless). Also, from what i am understanding, as long as the booster seat (highback or backless) fits the child (seat belt wise), you can disregard the height limitation? sorry if im being dense about this but i havent ventured into boosters in as much detail as i have the convertibles at this point.


Height limits on boosters are just like height limits on harnessed seats--an approximation. As you know, you can have 10 different 57-inch tall children who can all fit the booster differently. Some will have long legs and short torsoes, some will have short legs and long torsoes, some will be in the middle. Boosters have a written height limit on them because they are required to by FMVSS213, and they state 57" because that is the point at which most children will fit properly into an adult seatbelt.

The Frontier is one of the tallest boosters available. As long as the child fits into the booster by weight and height (and by height I mean the child is within the belt guide) it is not dangerous to be in a booster beyond the stated height limit. Again, the SIP provided by a high back booster is very beneficial.

There used to be a great video on youtube showing crash tests of a side impact and a dummy in a high back booster with very deep side wings (like the European boosters, or the Parkway, Start, Vivo, Frontier or Monterrey), a high back booster with shallow wings (for instance the Graco Turbo, or the Evenflo or Cosco boosters), and a backless booster. In the deep winged booster, the child's head and body was contained and very well protected by the EPS foam. In the shallower booster, the seat and EPS foam still absorbed alot of the energy, but the child's head was not contained and struck the window/side panel. In the backless booster, of course there was nothing absorbing the energy and the child not only struck the side of the vehicle but also there was much movement of the child's whole upper body after the crash. So you can see why the high-back portion of a booster is important!


----------



## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

i guess the thing that was confusing me about the backless booster (that the 10 yo is in now) is that its "clear" (relatively) when a kid outgrows something by ear level (if that makes sense) but since there isnt anything around the head w/ the backless booster, its a bit more confusing. I would love for my 10 yo to be in a high back booster right now but its a no go for him after getting teh Ollie.









thansk for the explanation though. the 2.5 yo will be in teh Frontier until the max, and depending on how long that is, so will teh new baby.









this makes me wish i had a middle seat though...i realize my 10 yo is not as safe as he could be and wish he could be in the middle. after buyng the Ollie though, there is no going back for him....he HATED teh Monarch.


----------



## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
i guess the thing that was confusing me about the backless booster (that the 10 yo is in now) is that its "clear" (relatively) when a kid outgrows something by ear level (if that makes sense) but since there isnt anything around the head w/ the backless booster, its a bit more confusing. I would love for my 10 yo to be in a high back booster right now but its a no go for him after getting teh Ollie.









thansk for the explanation though. the 2.5 yo will be in teh Frontier until the max, and depending on how long that is, so will teh new baby.









this makes me wish i had a middle seat though...i realize my 10 yo is not as safe as he could be and wish he could be in the middle. after buyng the Ollie though, there is no going back for him....he HATED teh Monarch.









Sorry, I wasn't insinuating that you need a HBB for the 10 year old, I was just trying to explain why the high back is safer and why it's ok to continue using it









With the backless booster, just keep an eye on where they shoulder belt is hitting his shoulder. You can tell he is outgrowing it when the shoulder belt is hitting low on his shoulder instead of crossing the collarbone. If you have non-adjustable headrests, keep an eye on where his ears are in relation to the top. Otherwise, you can leave him in it until he reaches the weight limit or passes the 5 step test


----------



## Jes'sBeth (Aug 30, 2004)

if the car was totalled, how did the booster stay on the seat?

I'd probably get a new carseat for the 3 yr old (go for that nautilus and reharness her!!! You won't have wasted your money because you'll be able to use it as a booster when she' ready for it) and a new booster for your older child. Boosters aren't that expensive when you consider that it could protect your child in an accident. Accidents just can't be planned. (We were rear ended by a transport on a wet road one day a few years ago.)


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Yeah, we've already decided to get a new Graco booster for our 8yo -- and we're going to see if it still fits with the high-back on, now that we know how much more protection it provides that way. And we're getting the Graco Nautilus for our 3yo.

I don't know that dh noticed the positions of the carseats following the accident; he was pretty much in pain and had to be transported to an ER. A coworker leaving work noticed that dh was in an accident, and called to let a supervisor know. Then another coworker walked over to check on dh, and grabbed our 3yo's seat out of the car and walked it back to work for dh to get later.

Then when dh went to the lot to get stuff out of the car a few days later, he got our 8yo's booster, and I guess at that time noted that it hadn't moved. But, for all we know, someone could have moved it back to the seat. Not likely, but possible.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

We went to Walmart yesterday and got the carseats.

Guess what? When I sat my 3yo in the Graco Nautilus they had on display, we found out her shoulders were higher than the highest slots for the harness. This was the case with every. single. 5-pt harness-seat on display there.

At 42" tall and 44 lbs, our 3yo is as big as, or bigger than, many 5yo's we meet, so I guess I shouldn't have been so surprised.

We ended up getting Graco Turbo Boosters for both girls. Our 3yo can still wear hers with the highback, but our 8yo's shoulders are higher than the slot for the shoulder-belt, so she has to wear hers as a backless booster.

I now wish I could believe Levitt's research-findings -- it would make me feel better about our own personal situation ... The one positive thing that's come out of all I've learned on this thread, is at least they're no longer riding in the seats that went through the accident.


----------



## goodheartedmama (Feb 1, 2007)

What is her shoulder height (sitting)? There is no way, just no way. My kid is really huge for his age, 40 inches at 2, and he has plenty of room in his regent. You're compromising your kids safety, and you don't seem to care (as I've stated before, and you were so offended).


----------



## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Did you adjust the Nautilus to the tallest setting? I cannot believe that a 42" child would not fit in the seat.

My very-long-torsoed daughter had a 16.5" seated torso height at 42" (I remember these stats because it's when we retired a Marathon), and that would have given almost 2" of torso growth room in a Nautilus.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goodheartedmama* 
What is her shoulder height (sitting)?

I don't know -- but I had her sit in the actual seat, and saw for myself that her shoulders were above the slots -- which, ignorant as I am, I know is an indication that she's too tall for the harness. I don't remember a Regent there, but I had her sit in every harnessed carseat on display -- and checked the boxes in case there was another possibility not on display.

Quote:

There is no way, just no way. My kid is really huge for his age, 40 inches at 2, and he has plenty of room in his regent.
Well, good for you guys.

Quote:

You're compromising your kids safety, and you don't seem to care (as I've stated before, and you were so offended).
I'm still offended, but, you know, you don't really seem to care about hearing or understanding others' experiences and perspectives. Maybe I posted about all this on the wrong forum.

One thing I told dh was, if we ended up finding a better option for dd, at least we could sell the booster for maybe half what we paid, at whatever point we were able to purchase the better option. I'm guessing that there may be carseats like the Regent that work for taller, larger children ... maybe you intended your post as a roundabout, rather rude way of letting me know that.

goodheartedmama, when you came back previously and said you hadn't really meant that you didn't think I cared about my children, I figured I'd misunderstood you and you really weren't trying to be hostile. But I don't think I'm misunderstanding anything this time. I'm sorry you feel such a need to try to hurt others.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
Did you adjust the Nautilus to the tallest setting? I cannot believe that a 42" child would not fit in the seat.

I didn't move the harness to the highest setting, because I could see with my own eyes that the *slots* the harness was to go through were below the level of her shoulders.

Quote:

My very-long-torsoed daughter had a 16.5" seated torso height at 42" (I remember these stats because it's when we retired a Marathon), and that would have given almost 2" of torso growth room in a Nautilus.
All I know is what I saw with my own eyes with the actual carseat. I didn't see any way to adjust the carseat to make the slots go higher -- but maybe somebody can fill me in if there's a way to do this with a Nautilus.

In my previous experience with carseats, you adjust them to a higher setting by re-threading the shoulder-straps through the higher slots. And, as I've said, the highest slots were below the level of her shoulders.

Maybe I'm missing something here. I'm open to hearing about it if so.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Okay, I just checked ... my 3yo's seated height is 24 inches, and she's 16 inches from seat to shoulders. That means her torso is more than half her height.


----------



## cognito (Nov 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 

In my previous experience with carseats, you adjust them to a higher setting by re-threading the shoulder-straps through the higher slots. And, as I've said, the highest slots were below the level of her shoulders.

Maybe I'm missing something here. I'm open to hearing about it if so.

With the Nautilus you have to move the headrest part up to reveal more slots. Maybe that was the problem? I think it has 4 set of slots.


----------



## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Okay, I just checked ... my 3yo's seated height is 24 inches, and she's 16 inches from seat to shoulders. That means her torso is more than half her height.

16" from seat to shoulders means she will fit a Nautilus, a Radian, a Frontier and a Regent (perhaps others). It also does mean that she probably won't fit most of the harnessed seats sold at WalMart.

How many sets of slots did you see on the Nautilus? There should be four. As a PP wrote, you need to move the headrest to access the taller slots.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
My very-long-torsoed daughter had a 16.5" seated torso height at 42"

Okay, I just re-checked your post and saw that you were talking about torso-height, not seated-height (at first I thought my daughter's shoulders fell where your daughter's head did, when seated at the same height).

So, my daughter's torso is about the same length as your daughter's was at that height, which should have meant 2" room with the Nautilus? But when the slots are lower than the shoulders, doesn't that mean it's hazardous to use?

Dh and I are both pretty sure that I checked behind the fabric-cover and found the slots in the actual carseat. But all this has got me wanting to go back asap and re-check.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cognito* 
With the Nautilus you have to move the headrest part up to reveal more slots. Maybe that was the problem? I think it has 4 set of slots.

Okay, that's where I messed up. We'll have to go back just as soon as we can to get another. Thanks!


----------



## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Yeah, you have to move the headrest up to find those last slots. It can bey tricky that way. But it should fit her.


----------



## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

The Nauti has a top harness height of 18.5". She will have a good couple of inches







You have to push in the red button and pull the headrest up to expose the last 2 slots. I have a very long torsoed 3 year old, and she has plenty of room


----------



## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

Glad you figured that out-- the Apex is the same way and it confused me at first when I went to look at it (a couple years ago).
The Nautilus should last at least a year in the harness and the Regent would probably last 3+ years.


----------



## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goodheartedmama* 
You're compromising your kids safety, and you don't seem to care (as I've stated before, and you were so offended).

Hmm... what I've seen on this thread is a mamma go from sharing dangerous info that she accepted at first without question, to questioning it, getting more info, accepting a WHOLE lot of criticism with fairly minimal defensiveness, and ultimately deciding to put her children in much safer seats. She expressed regret that she couldn't find a harness to fit her 3-year-old, and is relieved to learn that she likely missed the extra slots in the Nautilus. Lots of moms would not go so far as to explore these issues at all, much less going back out to the store to take another look at a seat that she may have misjudged the fit on.

You've come a long way, baby. ;-) Congrats, mammal_mama!


----------



## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
Hmm... what I've seen on this thread is a mamma go from sharing dangerous info that she accepted at first without question, to questioning it, getting more info, accepting a WHOLE lot of criticism with fairly minimal defensiveness, and ultimately deciding to put her children in much safer seats. She expressed regret that she couldn't find a harness to fit her 3-year-old, and is relieved to learn that she likely missed the extra slots in the Nautilus. Lots of moms would not go so far as to explore these issues at all, much less going back out to the store to take another look at a seat that she may have misjudged the fit on.

You've come a long way, baby. ;-) Congrats, mammal_mama!

I agree!







to mammal_mama!


----------



## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

I agree as well. Good job, mammal_mama!


----------



## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

OP- I'm glad you discovered the Nautilus.... I hope you get back soon to grab one! The headrest thing is a little tricky so make sure to post questions about it here to make sure you get it in the right position. These mamas will be glad to help









Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I'm wondering, how many carseats do you recommend buying for one child?

You could do with a minimum of 2, sometimes. For us we had the infant seat (free, used from my baby sister who was 15 months when my ds was born so the seat was still safe) until he was 3 months. At that time he outgrew it so I bought a Graco ComfortSport for my car ($110). Once I realized what a pain in the butt it was to constantly move it AND get a safe install each time (I was moving it a couple times a week) I bought a Britax Marathon for my car ($280) and moved the ComfortSport to the other car. Once he outgrew the ComfortSport at about 2 1/2ish I bought a Britax Regent ($280). I recently purchased a Graco Nautilus for him, as he's close to outgrowing the Marathon (by height) and I found it on an awesome sale ($110). So now he has a Nautilus, which will be in my future in laws car as soon as I get it installed, a Regent (currently in the garage, waiting for me to move the Nautilus out of my car so the Regent can go back in there) and a Marathon (in DP's car for an emergency). Total of 5 carseats in 4 years for a total of a little over $800, after you add in taxes. I will be buying another seat (unsure of what) to replace the Marathon in dp's car in the next year. In 3ish years when ds outgrows the Regent he'll get another seat, depending on what's on the market at the time.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
Hmm... what I've seen on this thread is a mamma go from sharing dangerous info that she accepted at first without question, to questioning it, getting more info, accepting a WHOLE lot of criticism with fairly minimal defensiveness, and ultimately deciding to put her children in much safer seats. She expressed regret that she couldn't find a harness to fit her 3-year-old, and is relieved to learn that she likely missed the extra slots in the Nautilus. Lots of moms would not go so far as to explore these issues at all, much less going back out to the store to take another look at a seat that she may have misjudged the fit on.

You've come a long way, baby. ;-) Congrats, mammal_mama!

Thanks for the support!

I've overall found the posters on this thread to be supportive and helpful.

One or two dud posts among so many good ones isn't so bad!


----------



## LizaBear (Feb 1, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I'm wondering, how many carseats do you recommend buying for one child?

You could generally get by with 3 per child I think :
- one infant seat that rear-faces to 30 or 35 lbs (depending on the country you live in)
- one forward-facing seat that harnesses to 65 or 80 lbs (again, country dependent)
- one dedicated booster


----------



## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

However, my local taxi firm has cars where one of the seats folds down like described in the op only it folds down and there is a 5pt harness.
I drove someone's van once that had a seat in the back that did this. I wish all my van seats (in the middle and back anyway) had that capability.


----------



## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Thanks for the support!

I've overall found the posters on this thread to be supportive and helpful.

One or two dud posts among so many good ones isn't so bad!

i am also soo impressed w/ your openmindness. i have friends IRL that are nowhere near as open minded when it comes to car safety. they have to stick to the idea that they are doing the best they can (which they obviously are not).

congrats! you are a great and caring mom!


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
i am also soo impressed w/ your openmindness. i have friends IRL that are nowhere near as open minded when it comes to car safety. they have to stick to the idea that they are doing the best they can (which they obviously are not).

congrats! you are a great and caring mom!

Thanks!


----------

