# I feel betrayed by all the "experts"



## OGirlieMama (Aug 6, 2006)

Sleep associations and getting your baby to fall asleep on her own are supposedly the holy grail. Pantley says so, so do Weissbluth Ferber, Douglas, Mindell and whoever else I may have missed (I have read them all, even the CIO folks, for whatever non-CIO kernels of information might be useful - the true sign of a desperate mama). "If you put your baby down awake and she falls asleep (regardless of whether they CIO or not) alone without assistance, she will soon start sleeping through the night."

Well, meet my babies, experts. I have been putting my babies down awake 9 times out of 10 since November. They are champion go-to-sleep-ers - for naps and bedtime. We did our own version of the Pantley method, and it was gentle, minimally stressful on everyone, and didn't even take terribly long. It has made not. one. difference. They still take 20-30 minute naps, and wake up just as often overnight, if not more often than when I milked, rocked, or laid down with them until they were asleep.

A thousand fiery







: faces to them all. I'd chase them down and hit each of them on the head if I wasn't so darn tired!







:


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

YUP. DS drifts off to sleep.. happy and cozy. After his minute by minute ROUTINE... and wakes up looking for me anywhere from 40-120 minutes later throughout the night.

Bedtime Routine + going to sleep by themselves is like the older baby version of "just swaddle!!".

SWADDLING DOESN'T WORK EITHER!!








:

Thanks for letting me vent!


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

wait I don't understand your post really....so you what exactly are you saying or advocating or complaining about? Just trying to get a clear picture what you're getting at


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Being tired sucks. Getting up multiple times a night sucks. But, I think you're the text book example of the "bad sleepers will be bad sleepers no matter what you do" theory.

My daughter, until very recently, woke 10 times a night, and HAD to sleep with the boob in her mouth. I dreaded bed time. Evenings _used_ to be a time for relaxation and rejuvenation, and all I did was anticipate how horrible I was going to sleep. It was awful.

Just keep in mind that that it does get better. DD now sleeps 3-4 hours at a time now, and it's HEAVENLY. When they're ready to sleep longer, they will. It really is true.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OGirlieMama* 
I'd chase them down and hit each of them on the head if I wasn't so darn tired!







:

Oh me too. I wish I had every dollar back that I spent on stupid baby sleep books. I too have read most of them, just looking for that one little tidbit that might be the key. All they did was confuse me more.







:


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

I'm with ya.

I have always thought that the "put them down sleepy so they can get used to falling asleep on their own" and all the variations on it were way, way over-rated. Sure, it works for the babies that it works for (how's that for circular?







), but it certainly doesn't work for all of them.

Hang in there. My daughter has been a frequent-waker since day 1, literally. For me, the 'holy grail' moment came when she started waking up, sitting up and looking around, and then lying back down on her own and going back to sleep, which happened for us around 15 months. I take no credit for it, either, she just did it on her own.


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## OGirlieMama (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *425lisamarie* 
wait I don't understand your post really....so you what exactly are you saying or advocating or complaining about? Just trying to get a clear picture what you're getting at











I'm mostly just whining that my babies are crappy sleepers. And like magic, now they are crying again. Seeya later.

ETA: back with kate sleeping in arms. what makes it extra stinky is i am an eper, and if my h works late (often) it is very hard to pump between wakings. and bottle is not like boob for comfort.


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

I'm SOOOO with you on the "experts"! I wish I had thrown out all the darn sleep books, moved my clock out of the room and just waited for DD to get older. By 18 months, most of our sleep "problems" started to resolve themselves. I had no idea that 99% of it is just growing up a bit and sleeping much more deeply at night (and getting those painful teeth to come in). Sheesh...think of all the books they've sold, and it's really all about biology.


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## bauchtanz (Nov 15, 2005)

I knew from my friends those people were not realistic - so I consulted my "expert" - mommies in my family. I was lucky that I co-slept - but I knew the I didn't for naps and I knew others didn't - but also did not do CIO.

I asked the women of my family what worked. Rocking to sleep seemed by far the method most swore by. I know, hard with 2.......

We are not there yet. DD HATES to be rocked (It is like she get sea sick or something)


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## kreyno4 (May 10, 2006)

My favorite blogger, Moxie, on why "experts" don't know it all:

http://moxie.blogs.com/askmoxie/2005....html#comments

I'm right there with you, OGirlieMama!


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OGirlieMama* 









I'm mostly just whining that my babies are crappy sleepers. And like magic, now they are crying again. Seeya later.

ETA: back with kate sleeping in arms. what makes it extra stinky is i am an eper, and if my h works late (often) it is very hard to pump between wakings. and bottle is not like boob for comfort.









Oh gotcha...yeah me too....DS is 2.5 now and asks to go to sleep with me so it does get better


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

There is a light at the end of the tunnel. I never did a "sleep program" with DS because I was convinced they wouldn't work. Instead we did all the "wrong" things - holding him while he slept, letting him sleep with a bottle, getting up multiple times a night to feed him, you name it.

Well now he's 3.5, off the bottle, and sleeps all night every night without a peep. So sometimes you don't have to do anything at all except get through it, and things will solve themselves.

I hope you get some sleep soon!!


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

Oh and he was one of those kids who woke up every night, all night, every 40 minutes for YEARS.


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## ABand3 (May 21, 2005)

Yes, bah to the 'experts'. I went crazy reading that all I had to do was make sure my babies could fall asleep on their own, put them down awake, let them fall asleep, and poof! they will sleep though the night. NOT SO, experts! All three of mine fell asleep beautifully on their own; all three of mine also woke several times a night to nurse until 18+months.


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## stacyann21 (Oct 21, 2006)

I don't understand the need to sleep train a baby. I really don't. My baby doesn't know how to "self-soothe" and why would he need to? That's what I'm here for. I honestly cannot imagine putting my baby down awake and walking away while he cries.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)




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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stacyann21* 
I don't understand the need to sleep train a baby. I really don't. My baby doesn't know how to "self-soothe" and why would he need to? That's what I'm here for. I honestly cannot imagine putting my baby down awake and walking away while he cries.

I don't think anyone here is advocating leaving a baby alone to cry.


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## stacyann21 (Oct 21, 2006)

: Yeah, I know that. I was talking about the "experts".


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stacyann21* 







: Yeah, I know that. I was talking about the "experts".

Cool. I couldn't tell from your post who exactly you were referring to. The OP mentioned getting her babies to fall asleep on their own with her modified version of the Pantley method. I thought you may possibly be referring to her. Sorry for the misunderstanding, and thanks for clarifying.


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

You say you have twins. Would this not render the dynamics of sleeping different? Also, are you co-sleeping with them (thus ensuring that they will sleep less deeply)? Are they sleeping the the same bed together? All these factors make a big difference.


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## OGirlieMama (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
Cool. I couldn't tell from your post who exactly you were referring to. The OP mentioned getting her babies to fall asleep on their own with her modified version of the Pantley method. I thought you may possibly be referring to her. Sorry for the misunderstanding, and thanks for clarifying.









Stacyann and riverscout, thanks for clarifying that CIO comment for me! I saw the exchange after the fact and in my current exhausted, emotionally raw state I would've probably flown off the handle thinking I was being accused of letting my little cupcakes cry.







To be clear, the modification we did to Pantley was we did a lot more picking up than I think she advocates, but we got to where it worked so that's really what counts.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
You say you have twins. Would this not render the dynamics of sleeping different? Also, are you co-sleeping with them (thus ensuring that they will sleep less deeply)? Are they sleeping the the same bed together? All these factors make a big difference.

It definitely makes it different. And all the stupid expert say twins will sleep through each others' cries. Mine did when they were tiny babies - one would wake up hungry and scream bloody murder until she got her milk, and the other would sleep angelically beside her in the same crib. Nowadays if I don't get in there fast enough, I have two screamers on my hands.

They are no longer sleeping in the same crib - that stopped the day I walked in and found Kate kicking Lilly in the head in her sleep







: We don't have an official family bed, but when someone wakes up and can't get back to sleep in a few minutes, she joins us for the night. Lately that has meant me, my husband, and two babies in a Queen sized bed, with my poor butt hanging off the edge.









I was surviving OK when they would go to sleep around 7-8, and wake up around 12-1 and need to sleep with us the rest of the night. But now the past few nights they go to sleep fine but every hour someone is up. It makes it almost impossible to do minor household things - load the dishwasher, clean up the baby mess of the day, scoop the catbox, and then pump. Same problem with the naps - I try to shower and pump while they sleep and most times I can't do both. If they were cruddy nappers but slept OK at night, or even vice-versa, I'd probably complain a lot less.

I do feel like a jerk complaining about their sleep. They spend 2 months in the NICU after showing up early, and all that time I just wanted to hold them and snuggle with them and watch them sleep. Now I feel like an ingrate for just wanting an hour or two a day when they sleep and I can do something else (even though half the "something else" is stuff for them anyway!)

Sorry for the mind dump.


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## bartleby (Oct 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OGirlieMama* 
I do feel like a jerk complaining about their sleep. They spend 2 months in the NICU after showing up early, and all that time I just wanted to hold them and snuggle with them and watch them sleep. Now I feel like an ingrate for just wanting an hour or two a day when they sleep and I can do something else (even though half the "something else" is stuff for them anyway!)

Sorry for the mind dump.









Don't! Feel like a jerk, that is. I fall into this trap too sometimes. My daughter, 26 mos., came to us through adoption, we waited a long time for her, and we feel so so so so fortunate and frankly astonished that her birth mother chose us to be her parents. I love my daughter so crazily much, it makes my head spin. BUT! Her sleep habits are not, shall we say, as conducive to my mental health as I'd like. Sometimes I complain. Then, I can very quickly slip down a whirring shame spiral because I should not feel one speck of frustration during the course of parenting this beautiful marvelous gift of a child. All I can say is, don't let yourself slip down the shame spiral for complaining. You sound like a perfectly loving mother to your two (!) little girls. You have to vent sometimes to keep from going totally nutso. Don't feel guilty!

Toss out the books. They're mostly rubbish. At least IME. Hope things get better soon.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OGirlieMama* 
I do feel like a jerk complaining about their sleep. They spend 2 months in the NICU after showing up early, and all that time I just wanted to hold them and snuggle with them and watch them sleep. Now I feel like an ingrate for just wanting an hour or two a day when they sleep and I can do something else (even though half the "something else" is stuff for them anyway!)

I agree with bartleby. Don't feel like a jerk OGirlieMama. You are only human. I feel a bit guilty sometimes for complaining about my dd's sleep issues because I faced the very real possibility of losing her when I went into PTL at exactly 24 weeks to the day. With a little medical intervention, bed rest, and lost of prayers, I held her in for another 16 weeks. I am so incredibly grateful that she made it and is alive and well, and that incident really helps put things in perspective sometimes. But sometimes I still have to vent about her not so great sleep habits or I would go completely insane. I love her with all my heart, but man I wish she would take a nap longer than 20 minutes.

I can't even imagine how much work goes into parenting twins, and twins that you are pumping for at that. Like some PPs here mentioned, I have heard things get better around 18 months or so. Hang on, and good luck with your absolutely adorable girls!


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## OGirlieMama (Aug 6, 2006)

Thank you for the kind words - they mean a lot to me. It's so easy to get carried away with emotions when it comes to babies and sleep, isn't it? They napped just as poorly as usual today - 20 minutes in the morning, 30 in the afternoon. But I did put them to bed earlier, as a few friends have recently suggested. Instead of starting bedtime routine at 7 we started at 6:40 and they were noticeably more cheerful, so perhaps not so overtired. Perhaps that will make a difference...or not.







: I'll report back later.


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## jennybean0722 (Jun 19, 2006)

I'm glad to see this thread. My DH is trying to get DS to sleep right now....it never works. Even Dr. Sears' advice on dad wearing baby down doesn't work either. hmph. I'll see ya later, gonna go put my baby to sleep the old fashioned way -- nursing.

Oh yeah, he hates rocking too. HATES it.


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## kreyno4 (May 10, 2006)

OGirlieMama, sounds so hard.

I thought of something that has helped me when I realized that 20 min. was a good nap for my baby (although I am sure it is a different ballgame with twins, and pumping, and you may already do this stuff, so feel free to ignore me







).

I no longer think of E's naps as times to get things done. I just try to do the things while she is awake or .... not do them.... This has taken some of the pressure off because I don't feel quite so desparate about getting/keeping her down so I can get stuff done. So...
- showering while she watches me from the exersaucer







: Although I know others have container-free ways to shower, like child-proofing and let them crawl around the bathroom
- *not doing* any chores that cannot be done while she is awake--ex. kitty litter, trash, cleaning the tub, or whatever. Due to some negotiation these are now my dh's responsibiltiies, which doesn't always mean that they get done, but at least I do not have them on that mental to-do list anymore.
- Other chores, I either wait until dh is home or wear the baby (again, so much harder with 2, but I wanted to put it out there), or let her range around and work in very short bursts like 5 minutes.

Just my experience, but maybe something in there can help you.

Good luck!


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## OGirlieMama (Aug 6, 2006)

Well, last night was another up and down for the first part of the night. Bedtime was sooooooooo easy. I put them down 20 minutes earlier than usual and they were totally quiet. Five minutes later Lilly was yelling so I went in there to help her out and found Kate was totally conked out already. So cute. But then Kate was up 3x before 11pm. Finally at that last wakeup she woke up Lilly, so we took them both to bed with us and that's where we all stayed. It was a better night's sleep than I have gotten in a while, even with Lilly waking up at 5am hungry! If only my back didn't hurt from having so little space in my own bed!









The only thing that makes me edgy about co-sleeping like this is that at some point hey are going to get bigger and more fidgety, and in a queen bed, that's going to be rough. I don't know what we'll do at that point. It would take a lot of rearranging (and expense) to work a bigger bed into this room.


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## OGirlieMama (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kreyno4* 







OGirlieMama, sounds so hard.

I thought of something that has helped me when I realized that 20 min. was a good nap for my baby (although I am sure it is a different ballgame with twins, and pumping, and you may already do this stuff, so feel free to ignore me







).

I no longer think of E's naps as times to get things done. I just try to do the things while she is awake or .... not do them.... This has taken some of the pressure off because I don't feel quite so desparate about getting/keeping her down so I can get stuff done. So...
- showering while she watches me from the exersaucer







: Although I know others have container-free ways to shower, like child-proofing and let them crawl around the bathroom
- *not doing* any chores that cannot be done while she is awake--ex. kitty litter, trash, cleaning the tub, or whatever. Due to some negotiation these are now my dh's responsibiltiies, which doesn't always mean that they get done, but at least I do not have them on that mental to-do list anymore.
- Other chores, I either wait until dh is home or wear the baby (again, so much harder with 2, but I wanted to put it out there), or let her range around and work in very short bursts like 5 minutes.

Just my experience, but maybe something in there can help you.

Good luck!

I totally hear ya. I have become quite good at speed-cat-box-scooping while they play with washcloths in their high chairs (after breakfast) and speed-pumping while they play with toys in front of the mirror. They are not crawling yet, so it's not so tough to keep track of them, though they do roll a lot and army-crawl backwards. I do have a Superyard, and though it is ugly as sin, I can see it coming in handy for situations like that when they are more mobile. It's not like I'd keep it up all day, but if I have to keep them contained for 10 minutes or so, I know it'll be useful. It's just more stressful to do all the stuff that way, know what I mean?

I just can't help wishing I had one of those long nappers! I have a friend who complains when her kid wakes up after 90 minutes, because she usually goes 2 hours, and she says her kid is cranky if she only gets the 90 minutes. I'd sell a kidney for 90 minute naps!


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

One of the most important things I've learned in this parenting endeavor is that the mama is the expert...no matter what anyone else might care to believe. Anyone who claims to be an expert is usually selling something


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OGirlieMama* 
I'd sell a kidney for 90 minute naps!



















Oh you and me both!


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## OGirlieMama (Aug 6, 2006)

Just had another big 20 minute nap! At least I showered. I tried putting them down 2 hours after they woke up, just as the stupid experts and several smart friends have said. They were bouncy and playing, so I thought it would surely fail, but when I laid them down they babbled and played for a few minutes and then fell utterly silent. Twenty minutes later the silence was pierced by SHRIEKS! They never wake up gently - grunting, whimpering, etc. It's always from zero to sixty in one second. Maddening! Then when I took them back to my room, one by one, Lilly screamed when I left her alone for 5 seconds (across the hall) and Kate screamed when I went back for Lilly. I must be really cool that they can't bear to be away from me, eh?







What's weird is that during the day they are happy to play independently on the floor for quite a while. Everyone remarks on it. But when it comes to sleep, they want mama, I guess. I'd have thought that because they spent their first few months either alone or with just each other, they wouldn't be this way. But maybe it's the opposite. Or maybe it has nothing to do with anything and they are just being developmentally appropriate, to the extreme.

Or maybe I can make myself crazy trying to analyze this to death, the way I used to analyze stupid boys in bad relationships back in my single girl days. That didn't change the outcomes there, either, but it sure wore me out. 







:


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