# Business is down for so many wahms.. what gives?..



## tippytoes26 (Mar 19, 2002)

Have you looked around lately to see how many wahms have instock? Wahms who normally don't have instock have lots and lots of inventory just sitting there. I just read a post at the harleez yahoo group about how the own is just coming to the realization that there is no way she can help keep her family fed and the bills paid on the tiny bit of income her business can bring in even though not too long ago, she was samped and couldn't keep up. And the sad and scarey part is.. I JUST had this same conversation with a handful of other wahms I'm friendly with. It seems like the days of not being able to keep up are over and now, business is at an absolute crawl for SOOOmany. I'm sure some are swamped still, but it's a select few. Maybe it's just the time of year? Maybe it's that we are sort of awaiting a new wave of itty bitty bums to be born near the spring (seems like most of you lucky gals are due sometime in January or February *L*)? Or are there just too many wahms for the demand? Are we too cliquish and tend not to be inviting enough to mamas curious about cloth? Have disposable makes reved up their marketing to make them seem so natural and appealing that new mothers don't even consider cloth anymore? Maybe my circle of wahm friends is just very small and I dont' really see the big picture and this really isn't a problem. The ones I do know don't have the funds to advertise enough to pull in random online business and rely on word of mouth on message boards like this one for their advertising.. so perhaps they are their own downfall in not figuringout how to afford the necessary advertising. The really strange part is, I (who usually NEVER spends money) have spent more money in the past two months than I have since my baby was born 2.5 years ago. I'm just sort of at a loss about what seems to be going on. Anyone care to speculate on why business seems to be so slow? Or, feel free to tell me it's all just in my head







.

It's sort of scarey though. Out of the handful of wahms I know personally, i would say half are on the verge of giving up becuse they just can't stay afloat, nontheless pay any bills... makes me wonder how many more are in that boat.

All in all, we all know business has it's ups and downs, but this seems to have been a particularly long lull and you don't need to be a wahm to have seen it.

Anyway.. just musings. Get off that wagon darn it!
Course.. all this instock sure does give me hours of enjoyable window shopping. I just can't be pleased.. I use to complain that nobody had instock .. no I complain there is too much *LOL*.. shame on me!

Amber


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

hmm ive thought the opposite lately, LOL. I was just mentioning to somehow how there are MORE highly desired diapering items/stores/WAHMS then there have been in the past and things dont seem to stay instock long. I know I cant seem to find diapers I want to buy instock or even open to customs ... but I will admit that I am pickier than most probably :LOL


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## Camellia (Jun 2, 2004)

Tell us which wahm's you are speaking of and give links! I'll go take a look


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## mehndi mama (May 20, 2003)

Two words:
Economic Recession

Nobody has money! It's not just WAHM's - it's just about all businesses. Sales are down everywhere. Even Wal-mart! So many people have been buying stuff on easy credit for so long.....and now all of a sudden they have to pay off this stuff, but so does everybody else. So nobody's buying new stuff, which in turn drives sales down elsewhere, which means less money to pay bills......

Anyway, it's not just a diapers thing. It's happening everywhere. I don't think there's a darn thing diaper-makers can do to boost sales at this point. We can only keep stuff available, so when people DO have a bit of mad money, they'll have something to splurge on.


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## plum (Mar 7, 2003)

i can't say i've noticed. i've been window shopping a lot myself lately and haven't seen much instock.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

I also agree with Stella about the economy being hit really hard .... before sewing diapers I sewed clothing... and was able to make a good amount of money on it.. but things went downhill quickly and I know lots of mamas who now can not live off of their WAHM clothing businesses when they used to be so busy that custom orders were out of the questions.


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## norcalmommy (May 4, 2004)

Well it seems like there are "new" wahms popping up all the time- but I think there are a lot of factors that may be contributing:
A. market saturation of so many wahms
B. providing a product that is re-usable and not disposed of, no need to keep buying more and more
C. hyena madness- if it's hard to get it must be the best and we need it! If it's available instock than mamas hesitate to buy. Just look at the aftermath of stockings- sometimes mamas who have bought a product in the mad rush change their mind and it's not so easy for them to sell it to someone else!

In my experience, the TP has been really slow lately. There are some really cheap great diapers listed and people just aren't buying them. Maybe that has more to do with time of year?

Personally, I am not in _need_ of new diapers, but I am always awaiting the opening of custom slots from a few wahms, and am more tempted to save my $ for those.


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## DreamingMama (Apr 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mehndi mama*
Two words:
Economic Recession

Nobody has money! It's not just WAHM's - it's just about all businesses. Sales are down everywhere. Even Wal-mart! So many people have been buying stuff on easy credit for so long.....and now all of a sudden they have to pay off this stuff, but so does everybody else. So nobody's buying new stuff, which in turn drives sales down elsewhere, which means less money to pay bills......

Anyway, it's not just a diapers thing. It's happening everywhere. I don't think there's a darn thing diaper-makers can do to boost sales at this point. We can only keep stuff available, so when people DO have a bit of mad money, they'll have something to splurge on.

I have to agree 100% with this post, my thoughts exactly. Everyone I know has been getting loans to pay off credit card debt and trying to stay afloat at the same time. The mall has way less people in them then it use to also. The slow down is every where.


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## norcalmommy (May 4, 2004)

Yes, but not all wahms are having probs- like fluffymail, elbee, kiwipie...I do think supply/demand drives some of this. But maybe hyena madness skews the supply demand curve severely toward the demand side.


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## tippytoes26 (Mar 19, 2002)

very interesting!

Well, in the interested of not breaking MDC rules about spam.. I really cannot spam those I'm friends with on a personal basis.. and since I just admitted that *L*.. it wouldn't be right for me to list their sites and such. For me, it seems bigger than just the handful of wahms.

Now, I don't know if any of these are hurting in any way or not, but they do have a lot of instock or stock seems to be selling much slower than it did before.. just some examples *I* use in my assessment of how business is for wahms.. this did NOT come from them..

sos, tykies, cotton pickin creations (she has nearly everything on sale), patchworkpixie, .. and a really suprising one.. righteous baby

I don't know if these are extreme or not, but that's just some off the top of my head that have instock that doesn't seem to be moving. Maybe they are taking custom orders, I don't really know... all I know is that a few months ago when I was looking, NOBODY had instock and when they did, it FLEW out of the stores.'

*LOL*.. now that I think about it.. that was right around tax returns.. maybe that was just when business was good .. not that it's bad now.. it was just really good then??

Amber


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## Spicey Momma (Jul 24, 2003)

I totally agree. These are hard times we live in now. I am a WAHM, but NOT a sewing momma! I am *very blessed* to have an actual WAHJ that sends me a check bi-weekly







But hours are being cut left and right on my job too. We have a 10 hour a week minmium to work, and my boss told me today that since hours where cut she would "hold me to it"!!!! HELLO!!!! I need those hours!


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## Ackray (Feb 11, 2004)

Post links! I have given up on getting many different WAHM dipes because they just weren't available. There are dipes that I SO HAD TO HAVE but I don't even look at the stores that they come from anymore because I didn't think that I would ever be able to get them!


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## carrietorgc (Sep 16, 2003)

hey, why can't I get the harleez site to load now? I can access the yahoo group but www.wahmarama.com won't load??


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## michray (Aug 11, 2003)

I think it is a combination of economic recession and hyena's skewing the market. I will freely admit that there are certain diapers I am willing to spend on... and some that I have tried and liked just "ok". I have made a real effort to try out new WAHMs and to keep my reviews of their diapers as honest as I can, while including the fact that my dd is so difficult to fit.
As for money... ugh.. don't ask! I sell to buy...but even I have slowed down and look for trades and super good deals before I loosen the fist gripping my paypal. Even so, I have a list of WAHMs I want to support regularly and new ones that I want to try out.
Its a tough old world out there these days!


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

I'm a total newbie, but, on the other hand, that may be the type of customer that WAHMs are trying to attract, since we have to buy everything. Plus, I want everything new because of Rosie's medical history.

I have spent nearly five hundred bucks with WAHMs in less than two months. I plan to stock and then cut way, way back.

I do agree that the recession and the availability of used diapers has something to do with this.

But, because I have approached this just as a customer, I do have some insight. I think that WAHMs could do some better marketing in terms of offering sales, deals, loyalty programs, etc. Or a program where people who drum up business for the wahm get a discount on their next orders.

I also think that the sites can be improved by removing "take it or leave it" language on their policies that must be left over from the days of wine and roses. I saw at least one WAHM (sorry, I forget which one) site that basically said, in no uncertain terms, "if you don't like our lost packages policy, go somewhere else." It didn't soften the blow. I was planning a big purchase there, but it just didn't sit right with me, kwim? So I took the advice and went somewhere else. I would have written it as "we would love to have your business, and we want to protect your purchase, so we buy insurance for all of your diapers at our own expense" or "we require you to buy insurance for your purchases, for your own protection." You get the idea. Yes, the WAHM was probably exasperated for a good reason, but it just didn't work in this highly competitive environment.

When a WAHM gives outstanding customer service, it is remembered and appreciated.

One more thought: I notice that there seems to be an agreement not to bid against each other when something is for sale on ebay. Why not? Doesn't that hurt the WAHM who is selling the item? Shouldn't the stuff go to the highest bidder?

Some folks, like Maria with kiwi pie, could raise their prices substantially and still have people frothing at the mouth to buy her products. But most WAHMs are going to need to lower their prices, offer free shipping, etc. It is OK to compete with each other in an ethical way.

Some WAHM businesses offer all the same product, for the same price. The only thing that distinguishes one from the other is customer service and shipping policies.


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## pilesoflaundry (Dec 9, 2003)

ITA with every reason already said.


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## BlueBelle (Jun 19, 2004)

Post links! I have CD money to spend!


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## kindmomma (Sep 18, 2002)

Ok let me help......
WAHMS with instock
www.babybloomrs.com
www.darlingdiapers.com
www.angelwraps.com
www.tykiediapers.com
www.simplygooddiapers.com (the BEST honeyboys EVER)
www.cloud9softies.com
there are many more I know but those are some to get you started


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## SEEPAE (Feb 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kindmomma*
Ok let me help......
WAHMS with instock
www.babybloomrs.com
www.darlingdiapers.com
www.angelwraps.com
www.tykiediapers.com
www.simplygooddiapers.com (the BEST honeyboys EVER)
www.cloud9softies.com
there are many more I know but those are some to get you started









yeah, when I first started coming here, angel wraps NEVER had instock and it sold like candy, and so did cloud 9, probably just the slump.


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## BlueBelle (Jun 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kindmomma*
Ok let me help......
WAHMS with instock
www.babybloomrs.com
www.darlingdiapers.com
www.angelwraps.com
www.tykiediapers.com
www.simplygooddiapers.com (the BEST honeyboys EVER)
www.cloud9softies.com
there are many more I know but those are some to get you started









WOOHOO! I just recently decided that a stash cannot be created of FB's alone, so I'm trying to branch out into more hyena realms. :LOL

Thanks!


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## kindmomma (Sep 18, 2002)

I loooooooooove angelwraps


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## francesmct (Jul 8, 2004)

As a non hyena type CD'ing mother of one here are my immediate thoughts...

Each one of us only needs a finite number of diapers, so it's all about spreading the word. Unless more people start using cloth then of course the small number of us who use cloth cannot support what seems to be the growing population of WAHMs.

I also think it's difficult for some WAHMs to provide the service that some people look for when spending large quantaties of money. Of course they do their best, but let's face it, it must be terribly hard to run a business when you have to make the product, market the product, purchase materials and ship in a timely manner, not to mention raise your family as well. There are some businesses I have to pass on because I just can't afford to wait 2 months for a product that I need right now - especially when babies grow like weeds.

There is also the fact that unless you look very hard (which includes being internet saavy), as a newbie to cloth it is difficult to access the numerous resources and WAHMs supplying cloth diapers.

Finally the fact that so many diapers are sold online may contribute as well for two obvious reasons - one that many people do not want to purchase on line for security reasons and two that those same people want to touch and feel what they are buying.

Perhaps with Real Diaper association spreading the good word business will pick up, but it is difficult as the majority thinking of cloth only know about what exists in department stores...and when these products fail they quickly give up and switch to disposeables.

Then again I may not even know what I am talking about...I'm just thinking out loud.


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## amicrazyyet (Mar 24, 2004)

Quote:

But most WAHMs are going to need to lower their prices, offer free shipping, etc. It is OK to compete with each other in an ethical way.
I think this is the reason so many are giving up the business. When most have lowered cost to makeing next to nothing on a diaper, it is impossible to lower it even further to not even cover costs.

I believe the economy is slow, there are more mass produced dipes out there to choose from which people build the majority of their stash with then branch into hyena type dipes, more competition, larger base of hyena dipes, kids going back to school, did i mention a bad economy? Things seem tight everywhere, not just the diapering world.


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## Ok (Feb 6, 2004)

Are WAHMs who sell FBs, Luke's Drawers, Wonderoos, etc getting hit hard too? The boutique WAHMs are competing with each other and against FB-types. But is there also saturation of of the FB market (I'm using FB in a generic sense)?

The folks that might be looking to CD b/c of the economy would be looking for cheap workhorse diapers, not boutique stuff. I feel the tension as a consumer...80%+ of my stash was pre-loved. When I do buy a new diaper, I'm excited by sales, free shipping etc. I absolutely believe WAHMs should earn a living wage. I just don't make enough to be the one supporting them beyond a new purchase here or there.









Definitely need to find/work on converts


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## JohnnysGirl (Dec 22, 2003)

Hmmm, the only new input I have is that somehow American WAHMs need to tap into the market on this side of the pond because even though shipping is higher, the exchange rate is good because the dollar is low, so mamas over here in Europe will feel like they're getting a deal! (generally speaking....some countries obviously don't apply. But man oh man is the exchange rate good for UK mamas!)


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## Aherne (Jun 26, 2003)

(I am not specifically talking about *me*, moreso what trends I see)

I think it can be hard if you are an ex-hyena diaper or just not hyena at all. The MDC mamas are a great ol bunch ... but you ladies love what you like and leave what you dont love









Business comes through word of mouth (advertising supports various boards but does not provide the wahm with traffic) If no one is talking about your stuff, no one thinks to look. A lot of wahms sell the same stuff as other wahms who are more popular but never get a mention (like it is some big secret that people actually buy from unknownwahm#4 and never mention them)

The comment on lower prices, free shipping, bulk rates etc etc is very valid in the eyes of the consumer... but most wahms are already offering the lowest price possible and this means that EVERYONE gets a great deal.


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

I think everyone has valid points. I know in my case it's more of a personal thing. I've been CDing for nearly 3 yrs. and have tried many, many dipes. There's a couple of the newer WAHMs that I'd like to try, but I'm not worried about getting them right away - I know from experience that they'll show up eventually one the TP, or auction or I'll luck out one day and be online at the exact right time. But honestly, my stash is built up, I'm happy with it, and our current financial situation doesn't allow me to buy like I used to. Or, technically, I've shifted my thinking - we are trying to get out of debt (non-diaper related, I swear!! hee hee) so we can buy a house and stop paying a ridiculous am't of money each month in interest - dh's student loan interest is $160 PER MONTH. That's just INTEREST, folks. So we're tightening our belts...and honestly, I don't need as many dipes, both in the physical and mental sense. I can look now and not need...there's a time this wasn't true.


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## DreamingMama (Apr 18, 2003)

I seriously do not feel that wahms are slow for any other reason then the economy right now. Everything is slow. My dh's company is so slow it is at a snails pace. Everyone we talk to is hoarding what little cash they have for food and needs. The cost of food and housing has gone way up and wages have frozen. People are doing all they can to save money. It is normal for there to be slumps in the diaper market. It has been like this since 1998 from what I have experienced. Some diapers are more popular then others due to word of mouth not due to advertising. Advertising costs are so extremely high and do not put out the volume one would hope for after spending large sums for it. Word of mouth is the best way to help wahms in this business.


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## mehndi mama (May 20, 2003)

I honestly think that while there are more diaper-making WAHMs in the market right now, there is NOT market saturation. WAHM's quit every day. Just in the last year, 5 in my immediate circle of diaper-making friends packed up shop. Then, the majority of diaper-makers are small-time producers - they do what they can, when they can.....when their family & outside jobs are taken care of. And when they sell their diapers, they do NOT have them marked up for adequate profit - if they priced them any lower, or offered sales, they might as well give them away. Better marketing (advertising & such) & offering discounts might boost SALES, but it would not boost the WAHM's income in the end. No point in increasing sales if you have to spend all your profit to do so, right? Might as well pack up







:


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## danzarooni (Jan 27, 2004)

great thread. ITA with the economy being so rotten. We've certainly been hit here.


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## Izzybee (Feb 20, 2004)

:


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## blessed2bamommie (Feb 3, 2003)

Well...I'm shopping like a banchee for October and I am, like Tiff, picky....(organics and hemp; but, have a glut of the latter right now...), Thanks for the links Shel, I have obliged some of those wahms already!







*I'm* shoppin! Just as hard as I can! Just one person tho....







I'm trying to help! :LOL


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## 2much2luv (Jan 12, 2003)

Someone said something about tax return season. That hit the nail on the head for me. That's when I did my major shopping and I will do some more when it rolls around again.








I can't believe there are some Cloud9 s just sitting there!!! Somebody better buy them or I'll be trying to justify to myself buying a large (it won't fit!) :LOL


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## Danahen (Feb 1, 2004)

Ebb and flow. It has been slow for most wahms, I think. Stores get hot, then fade, then are popular again, etc.. But I also agree economics plays a major part. Plus, it's summer still (vacations), and school's starting (school supplies $), etc.. It IS hard to own a store and keep it running, especially if that is a good part of your total income (if your dh works, etc..). I feel awful when I see wahms close up shop







. Unfortunately, that's just the way life goes. I hope more babies are born, and more mamas become aware of cloth







.


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## jmreinke (Jan 1, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mehndi mama*
And when they sell their diapers, they do NOT have them marked up for adequate profit - if they priced them any lower, or offered sales, they might as well give them away. Better marketing (advertising & such) & offering discounts might boost SALES, but it would not boost the WAHM's income in the end. No point in increasing sales if you have to spend all your profit to do so, right? Might as well pack up







:

As a relatively new WAHM, I have thought extensively about this. It is tempting to offer sales, and free shipping and such. I do think it would increase sales, but at what cost? While I am in business to help spread the word about how easy and fun cloth diapers can be, I am also doing this to help support my family.

I agree with everyone that the economy is slow, and that people are trying to buckle down and reduce debt. I know that we are too.

August can also be a slow time because of back to school stuff. Maybe things will pick up closer to Christmas.

And finally, think the Wagon should be ditched! It's bad for business!














(But believe me, I do understand the Wagon, and why people are on it!)


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## JohnnysGirl (Dec 22, 2003)

That's why we have an anti-wagon!


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## Finnsma (Nov 2, 2002)

While I'm certain the economy is playing a part in the current slump, I also think it's just a part of the normal summer slump. Last year it was the same thing. Business is great from Sept (after people have recovered from school shopping) through tax time then it slows down again when the kids get out for summer. I've just come to expect it and try not to panic! :LOL Things are also often a bit slow around christmas time as people want to buy toys more then diapers. It's just part of the cycle.









I actually think a slower economy could be good for the cd wahm. The fact remains that cloth diapering saves money... well at least it does when one doesn't get addicted to the countless adorable cloth diapers out there and get carried away! :LOL "Hello, my name is Eva and I'm addicted to cloth diapers."







:


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## michray (Aug 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Butterflymom*
That's why we have an anti-wagon!









LOL, I love the anti-wagon threads, but they just keep making my " hafta try it" list grow and grow and grow...

Wish my paypal grew with it!


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## JohnnysGirl (Dec 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michray*
LOL, I love the anti-wagon threads, but they just keep making my " hafta try it" list grow and grow and grow...

Wish my paypal grew with it!


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## twindaze (Aug 13, 2002)

For me, it's about the money. My dh isn't currently working, he got laid off in June. He does have severance pay for awhile, but I can't blow that on cute diapers. I switched to cloth to save money when he got laid off and several super nice people have given me diapers. I have plenty now, all nice stuff too. So I have to resist buying more unless it's super cheap, like on ebay. Later on when dh is working again I may indulge some, and I'll probably need the next size by then too. However, I don't have it in me to do the stalking/hyena thing.

Jenny (mom to Nicholas, 8, Bradley, 6, Christopher, 6, and Alex, 4 months.)


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## twindaze (Aug 13, 2002)

I just went to the link for Cloud 9 and they're closed she says and just selling off stock. Does anyone know why? Her stuff looks nice but I can't buy right now as I said.

Jenny


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## mum2tori (Apr 7, 2003)

I agree I think it's the ecomony and the time of year right now. People are focusing spending on back to school issues.

I've been buying a few things for "Radish" but really only NB diapers because we used prefolds with DS last year during the NB stage. I haven't needed to buy clothes because we have plenty leftover from DS, I've gotten a couple of things just so he'll have a few new things. But majority of what I've needed for him we've already had. Got to love having two boys right in a row. Same with diapers for DS, he's starting to moving into most of DD's old stuff. That's the problem with having CDed for over 3 years... I've built a large stash and I know what works for us. I also know that I'll see a lot of what's popular RIGHT now on auctions & TP when the fervor slows down. Everything comes back around eventually.

The other thing is that hardly anyone mades the style closure (side-aplix) that I love anymore. Really the only two WAHMs that do (MudpieBabies and BizzyBHive) are very high demand and hard to get. So I just watch the auctions and TP and hope I can snag a few here and there.

That and like someone else mentioned.... ebb and flow, ebb and flow...


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## danaalex (Mar 19, 2003)

i asked a question about people's spending a couple of months ago. i inquired here, if y'all would curb your spending due to the recession and inflation of some of the simple items such as milk, and what not. almost every single response was, " no, i won't curb my spending." many responses spoke of support for wahms, and diaper buying was something you did not matter what the economic market was.

my assumption back then was that with the cost of living rising, and salaries not increasing, that people would not be spending as much as they had been several months ago on wahm made items. i think i was right. some of the diaper making wahms do seem to have stock around for longer than others, but more often than not the most popular sell out rather quickly. i have noticed stock sitting in places that i never would've imagined it sitting. i do also think, that the favorites are changing. it's like 'out with the old in with the new'. but i do think that the current state of our economy has a lot to do with it too.


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## mum2tori (Apr 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twindaze*
I just went to the link for Cloud 9 and they're closed she says and just selling off stock. Does anyone know why? Her stuff looks nice but I can't buy right now as I said.

Jenny

It's my understanding that Lisa sold the business (she has other things that are taking precedence in her life with her 5 children, I also think her youngest PT/L... the common death of many diaper-making WAHMs :LOL) and she's just selling diapers with what's left of her supplies.


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## rkimb74 (Feb 5, 2004)

My experience might be different from others, but when I had clothsofties.com it only brought in a few hundred dollars a month. I felt like I was working in a sweatshop making a few dollars an hour. Sewing for other people took all the fun out of it and I hated it, so when I got pg with twins it was a good excuse to quit. I don't know how any WAHM besides those with high volume like naturalbabies could ever make a living.


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## vkberes (Jun 26, 2004)

I agree that part of it is the recession and re-evaluating your finances. It seems like the cost of living is increasing, pay is not and other things like insurance, etc. are being pruned from many companies so that the worker has to pay more out of pocket. Figure in other stuff like increases in gas prices and money just gets tighter.

I think another part relates back to a thread a week or two ago that said people were getting tired of the same old prints. There are only so many out there and the new, fun ones get bought up while the others sit stale. I bet if a wahm had a lot of cute new prints her stuff would move quicker.

Any way, that is my two cents.


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## lillaurensmomma (Jul 5, 2003)

Well, for me personally I'm one of those "due in Feb" type mamas who is holding out to attempt to find out the sex of the baby next month







Then watch out! This kiddo already has a decent sized stash, but it's only going to get bigger!!









j


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## Staceyhsmom1 (May 7, 2002)

As a new wahm I haven't seen the rollercoaster yet, but know it has to do with many factors. As a shopping cd momma, I'm pickey!!! lol, I went to all the site listed in this post and didn't see one med aio in a bold print, all the med were sold or were plain







I am also looking for fall/winter items, which really aren't out yet, so all the cute sets have summer tops, not long sleeves....

Also, my dh has a trade as a job, he's an electrician. He just switched companies and joined a brand new comp and they are swamped with work, he has been working weekends, we miss him!

He just let me know a month ago, I do not need to worry about working(things will be tight!, but I no longer have to work! Yeah fo rme!) I had a homedaycare for 6 years and just quit because with my dd it was too much, but our funds were too tight, now things should even out in a month or so.


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## CortLong (Jun 4, 2003)

For me it's about the $$$ and about 'need'. I don't have a lot of money sitting around right now to keep trying new WAHMs and keep buying expensive diapers all the time. (although I'd LOVE to) Also, I've got a whole stash of newborn, a nearly whole stash of small and a whole stash of larges. All I really *need* to buy is mediums and because we've been living so simply recently I think I may just buy medium covers and keep using prefolds.


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## *~*SewHappyNow*~* (Sep 25, 2002)

I feel its the time of year coupled with a slow economy. Cost of living is rising and salaries are being cut!

Last winter was slow prior to tax return season. We all know that tax return season is our busiest time of year.

Usually it seems like the busy season extends further into summer than it did this year.. this year sales ground to halt for many of my friends right before the 4th of July. Business usually slows before Christmas and until tax returns start coming in.

I honestly do not feel this is in any way going to be a continuing trend, just a temporary phase.

Wouldn't it be great if we could find a way to reach more diapering mamas to spread the CDing







?

And Butterflymom.. if you have ideas on tapping biz on your side of the pond PM me please







LOL


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## Rebecca (Dec 4, 2002)

I think biz will pick up a bit when the older kids go back to school and mamas have more time available to browse. Fall brings new patterns, colors, woolies and a feeling of wanting to cozy up and hibernate. CDs fit well with that warm, homey feeling. Also, people are still playing outside a lot, vacationing and getting ready for school, not shopping so much. But, according to the news, recession or not, people are still travelling (despite high gas costs), buying plenty of milk and other dairy products, and real estate in my area (seacoast NH) is still booming. They still seem to be spending money, just not on wahm diapers! :LOL

I think next month will bring lots of changes regardless of bad economy. Maybe if wahms try to revive the auction sites we might see more traffic on our own sites? I haven't been to an auction site in forever...

Maybe somehow advertising when we have instock stuff available? SOmetimes I think that there are so many wahm sites that its hard to think of where to shop. When I sit down and decide to browse for dipes, I start with the hyena-sites, and of course, get frustrated. I forget the 'lesser known' wahm sites that may have instant gratification.


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## lifetapestry (Apr 14, 2003)

This is a very interesting thread and I wasn't aware of this trend before. It makes sense to me that this may largely be a function of season and the economy.

But I also wonder about the general things that make any business successful, and one of those is repeat customers. No matter how often anyone "spreads the word" about a particular WAHM diaper, it seems like it wouldn't be enough for a bunch of people to just try one diaper (to sustain the business). Rather, what you need is a certain percentage of those people coming back regularly or placing large orders occasionally. So word of mouth will only get you so far-- your product has to work for a good number of people to insure that some of those who try your product will buy it again. It's not enough in the long run to just have people buy one diaper, you want them coming back.

Some of this for diaper WAHM's is undoubtedly hard-- because not everything, no matter how top notch it might be-- works for all or even most babies. It is probably also hard because-- unlike a restaurant or a grocery store, consumers do not keep "needing" diapers on a regular basis. I imagine it's tough to build up repeat business that can sustain a WAHM biz through low points in the season.

I hope things pick up soon though,
Karla


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

I agree. Customer loyalty is important. I think that the same things that work for other businesses would work for WAHMs. For example, give some sort of bonus if customers buy a certain amount of dollars worth of products; even a thank you note by email with pictures of the kids would be a start. Or give a five percent discount on one order for referring new customers to the business. Take out any language that is nonuser friendly from websites.

And the print stuff is very valid. I was puzzled about seeing the same prints over and over and over again in different wahm businesses. That's why regular retailers bring out new lines in summer and fall.

For example, look at those gorgeous Izzy and Very baby dress diaper sets. The problem they have is that they are offering summer dresses at the very end of summer (late August) for full price. Here I am, with a beautiful baby girl I want to spend money on, but I am hesitating because they are sleeveless summer dresses and it is late August. I think they would do better marketing those dresses at the beginning of the summer or offering a big discount so moms would be willing to take the risk that the clothes may not fit next summer. Their stuff is beautiful and is supposed to be well made, etc. It's just a question of timing.



lifetapestry said:


> But I also wonder about the general things that make any business successful, and one of those is repeat customers. No matter how often anyone "spreads the word" about a particular WAHM diaper, it seems like it wouldn't be enough for a bunch of people to just try one diaper (to sustain the business). Rather, what you need is a certain percentage of those people coming back regularly or placing large orders occasionally. So word of mouth will only get you so far-- your product has to work for a good number of people to insure that some of those who try your product will buy it again. It's not enough in the long run to just have people buy one diaper, you want them coming back.


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## JohnnysGirl (Dec 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *inezyv*

And the print stuff is very valid. I was puzzled about seeing the same prints over and over and over again in different wahm businesses. That's why regular retailers bring out new lines in summer and fall.
.


Good point! I wonder why more WAHMs dont' make it a huge priority to FIND cute prints out there that people aren't super tired of? (FORGIVE ME if I have no idea how hard it is to do so-I'm sorry I know nothing of buying fabric!) I know I went overboard going nuts on some yummy Baby Bloomrs stuff (outfit, diaper, AIO, etc...) because a) her quality is top notch and b) the print totally got my juices going--a super cute coffee themed print I had never seen before and really liked. I'm sure I would buy more diapers if the prints jumped out and 'spoke' to me like that, but anymore I just opt for plain ivory or some hand dyes (or dip dyes) because there aren't prints out there in WAHM-diaperland that I like very much anymore.


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## Full Heart (Apr 27, 2004)

For me its been a timing issue. Since I found out my grandfather has cancer I have done nothing but plan for our trip to see him, go on said trip, come home to a TON of work. Today is the first day I have been able to do something more than play catch up. I think thats true for a lot of people. School starts soon or like for us has already. People are either going or justing getting back from vacation. And the gas prices are killer. I can't wait to get back in the swing of things. I can't remember the last item I bought or when I bought it. And I have pp burning a hole in my cyber-pocket










Michelle


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## michray (Aug 11, 2003)

I know for me, buying prints is actually a secondary thing to keeping the basic things needed to make our products in stock. Thread, hemp, microfleece.. and keeping my machines running all really take priority to spending time searching for prints.. not to mention that the more popular and attainable prints are affordable when you consider that sometimes stuff just sits in stock. Paying $10+ for an unusual print sounds so appealing, until I wonder how long something made from that will sit instock and if I will ever make a profit.. and that is just 1 print!
BUT... that kind of info is what WAHMs need to know.. I mean, if we know people are really starting to prefer organics, or really unusual prints, or engraved snap caps... then we know where to invest when we buy supplies.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

Quote:

Good point! I wonder why more WAHMs dont' make it a huge priority to FIND cute prints out there that people aren't super tired of? (FORGIVE ME if I have no idea how hard it is to do so-I'm sorry I know nothing of buying fabric!) I know I went overboard going nuts on some yummy Baby Bloomrs stuff (outfit, diaper, AIO, etc...) because a) her quality is top notch and b) the print totally got my juices going--a super cute coffee themed print I had never seen before and really liked. I'm sure I would buy more diapers if the prints jumped out and 'spoke' to me like that, but anymore I just opt for plain ivory or some hand dyes (or dip dyes) because there aren't prints out there in WAHM-diaperland that I like very much anymore.
I think thats exactly why more WAHMS have opened up to doing woven prints... they arent hard to find and are really really beautiful when it comes to colors/designs, etc. The same cant be said for knit prints unfortunately. So those are the ones you will see over and over again. Knit prints used to be easy to get because the big clothing companies (osh kosh, carters, etc) would sell off their excess to fabric stores/jobbers and in turn WAHMS could find them and buy them. But now most of the major clothing companies have taken their production overseas... leaving there no remnants/extras for people to buy here in the states. I'm sure there are mills that make knits here for resale but they are hard to find.... or expensive to have it milled yourself (and often times upweards of 500yds minimums ). The ones that are accessible are the ones that provide the prints to most of the diaper fabric stores and a lot of wahms.... but thats why you see them over and over again... they are the only ones that are accessible. Thats why PRR got big so fast among wahms... it was affordable, and easily attainable for the most part. But each year it seems the supply for knit prints is smaller and smaller.... you can't just go down the street and buy new prints no one has seen, kwim? Joanns does carry some cute knit prints now... but then again, you have every WAHM and their mom who buys them, LOL.

OVerall I would say to get the really unique prints... ya gotta go with a woven fabric.


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## gardenmom (Apr 9, 2003)

I just asked dh about internet traffic (he works for an internet traffic management company that 'counts clicks' for a living). He said traffic is way down, it's seasonal, and he felt it was quite comparable to last year at this time--down across the board in just about every business category.

Both our home-based businesses (non-diaper) are way down, and I recall it being the same last year at this time. Then it picks up after everybody gets their kids into school and settled, and drops off again somewhere around 2 weeks after Thanksgiving, when people figure they can't get mail order delivered in time for the holidays...

Of course, I agree with ALL of the reasons posted above...it's a little bit of everything, the economy, too much debt, not enough fabric choices, and much more, but I thought you'd all be interested in the overall picture of internet traffic...


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## Book Addict Jen (Mar 1, 2004)

Thanks for the info!


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## etoilech (Mar 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Butterflymom*
Hmmm, the only new input I have is that somehow American WAHMs need to tap into the market on this side of the pond because even though shipping is higher, the exchange rate is good because the dollar is low, so mamas over here in Europe will feel like they're getting a deal! (generally speaking....some countries obviously don't apply. But man oh man is the exchange rate good for UK mamas!)

You are so right. CDing as *we* know it basically unheard of here in Europe. It would be a HIT if we could a) find a way to mass ship product from the USA in a timely cost effective manner and b) I could finish getting my business up and running!!!!! LOL

Olivia (who is frantically TRYING to get some kind of website design in her head so I can start!!!)


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## Danahen (Feb 1, 2004)

Quote:

For example, give some sort of bonus if customers buy a certain amount of dollars worth of products; even a thank you note by email with pictures of the kids would be a start. Or give a five percent discount on one order for referring new customers to the business.
Unfortunately, unlike large companies, most wahms cannot afford to do this







. I am an occasional freebie giver, only when I am able to do so (I wish I could afford to give away more free things, but I cannot). I am lucky to have the time to (99% of the time) give a "thank you" email, yet I know of many wahms who are trully busy juggling home/work that they simply do not have the time to do this . Even 5% might not seem like much, but it all adds up. It's unfortunate, but true. Every little penny adds up. I wish I had investors







! I did free shipping most of this summer, and it nearly killed me







. So, the best I can do is rely on word of mouth and some minimal advertising. Here's a wahm idea, someone start a business that 1)makes freebies, 2) answers every email, and 3) finds the best places to advertise







!! Now, there's a business that would be busy! :LOL
It's a shame, because most of us wahms really love our customers! Everyone has been so great! I've made alot of friends, myself. I wish I could reward them all with discounts and coupons, etc. etc. etc.. It's just impossible, really.


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## penny31 (Jul 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rebecca*
Maybe somehow advertising when we have instock stuff available? SOmetimes I think that there are so many wahm sites that its hard to think of where to shop. When I sit down and decide to browse for dipes, I start with the hyena-sites, and of course, get frustrated. I forget the 'lesser known' wahm sites that may have instant gratification.









Exactly







I would love to know who had instock when I was ready to shop! How can we do that?

I am sad about Harleyz, my best fitteds are from Harleyz - they are just perfect.









XOXO


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## sedalbj (Mar 17, 2004)

Wow, what a great post.

I have only been researching/using cd's for about 8 mths, and I have noticed what you are talking about, and it surprises me. I have been wondering how new dipes sell, when there is so much being traded back and forth on the boards... And every industry has growth and stagnation periods....

I really think we need more cloth diapering mamas to spur on growth. There are so many out there who have no idea about the alternatives to sposies. My college friends, some much crunchier than me, are using sposies, and are so surprised when they find out that there is an alternative besides prefolds, pins, and plastic pants. The disposable diaper industry is doing a great job at advertising, and the general public JUST DOESN'T KNOW ANY ALTERNATIVE!

The Real Diaper Assocation is offering everyone a chance to bring in the next group of moms. I am trying to start a circle in the Philadelphia area, and there are other circles starting as well (if you want to be a Leader but are intimidated by the big list of responsibilities, see if you can get a small team of Co-Leaders together to spread out the work). If every current cd'ing mama brings one friend to a Circle meeting, just think of how many more customers the industry would have. And how many trees would be saved, and how much less trash would be created, blah blah blah...

Also, to address a very valid reason stated above, for new cd'ing moms, it is hard to envision what exactly a Righteous Baby, or a Soft Landings (for example) may look/feel/fit like. At the RDA meetings, new to cding customers can come and see examples of a huge variety of dipes, and also retailers will have the chance to show their products at the meetings.

OK, I am rambling....


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## jmreinke (Jan 1, 2003)

I find the print discussion in this thread both interesting and frustrating. It is hard to guess what people will like, to have a wide variety, and keep it cost effective. Some of the more unusual prints might appeal to people, but then they might not. Buying fabric is almost a gamble, sometimes an $8+ a yard gamble that adds up quickly. What if you buy a bunch of prints that was "in style", but them quickly goes out of style (sushi for example). All that money put into fabric just then sits there.

Also, doing instock with prints is a gamble. By making an instock diaper, in a certain print, you are gambling that somebody will want that print. What if they don't? Then it just sits there while the WAHM loses money. I'm not saying instock is wrong, or not good to do. It is great, but it can be a gamble guess what people will buy.

I found that print thread from a couple of weeks ago very interesting, but I learned that some kind of fabric people hate (say cowboys for instance), others just love.

I do like shopping for fabric, but it is a challenge picking good fabric. There is soooo much out there to choose from, and I can't buy one of everything. (But I would sure love to!







)

Oh, and in response to the anti-wagon... I was VERY glad to see those thread start.









(BTW, I think this thread has been great!)


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## Julia24 (Jun 28, 2004)

Okay, here's my two cents - and I, too, am a total Cding newbie at just 3 months.

There needs to be some universal organization to this venue....and maybe that's what the Real Diapering Association is trying to do, I haven't checked into it yet.

When I decided to check all this out - the amount and variety of information, options, rules, etc. is simply MIND NUMBING!!!

It's enough to scare anybody who doesn't have an 'in' with a person who already CDs right back to their Pampers/Huggies/what have you.

I'm not the crunchiest Momma - and most of my very 'natural living' friends are completely clueless about CDing. I'm lucky that I'm the first with kids and will probably be able to convert them all to some extent since we're all pretty open minded.

The fact is it NEVER crossed my mind when my baby was born - not until I needed help potty training her did I come across it. My Mother tried to talk me into it, and the CDing options at BRU screamed DO NOT USE ME - so I passed.

I don't have a great solution - I just wanted to clarify that IME, it's not about the products/customer service offered - I've had nothing but good experiences; it's about knowing what to do and buy that nearly kept me from pursuing it. And I think the key is in spreading the word and expanding the market!


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## sedalbj (Mar 17, 2004)

Mind NUMBING!!!! And when you are looking at deciding to spend $15/fitted + a cover (wool, pul, fleece???), or do you go AIO, or .....









OK.... I already dug myself out of that confusion! I can't go back to that place!







:


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## twindaze (Aug 13, 2002)

"When I decided to check all this out - the amount and variety of information, options, rules, etc. is simply MIND NUMBING!!!

It's enough to scare anybody who doesn't have an 'in' with a person who already CDs right back to their Pampers/Huggies/what have you."

That is SO true. It's only because I've had two close friends over the years who cloth diapered that I even knew it was a viable alternative. All I remember about cloth from the past was my sad attempts to get a diaper to stay on a little boy I was babysitting.







I also remember my mom cloth diapering my sister, pins and plastic pants.

Jenny


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## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

I think market saturation and the fact that there really are a finite number of cd users (who don't have to keep buying an unending supply like disposable users) play a big part in it. Work on those new converts!


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I just sold off most of my non-WAHM diapers and spent more than I'd like to think about on WAHM pocket dipes. I bought the same brand but from various sites depending on what prints they had in stock.

In a month I'm about to make a very large purchase of the next size up from one WAHM.

This is really my first time with big time buying from WAHM vs. the trendier diaper products. Honestly though, I find it overwhelming with all the companies springing up and I tend to stick to the ones I know already or those that friends have used and are happy with.

Darshani


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## hunnybumm (Nov 1, 2003)

I haven't read all the posts but I wanted to add my thoughts.

Like has been mentioned before I think it is just the economy. Around tax season people have money and they are spending it. Around the begining of school families have to buy school supplies, clothes, shoes, books, etc so they don't have the money for excess diapers. Then around the holidays people want to buy the special diapers for Thanksgiving, Halloween and Christmas. Then people don't have a lot of money because they are buying presents, holiday food, traveling, warm clothes, etc. Then comes tax season again.

I am sure there are more fluxes then I mentioned above, but that is all I can think about atm. It will bounce back just like it has in the past.


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## didelphus (May 25, 2003)

I feel like the market has nowhere to go but up, though. I think CD-ing is probably at an all time low and will only go up. I may be wrong on that but I think as more people find out the CD options then usage will increase. It's just about getting the word out.


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## chase (Oct 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Julia24*
When I decided to check all this out - the amount and variety of information, options, rules, etc. is simply MIND NUMBING!!!

It's enough to scare anybody who doesn't have an 'in' with a person who already CDs right back to their Pampers/Huggies/what have you.


This is so true. I was lucky that I found an online store that sold the basics. I ended getting a sampler package of prefolds, kissaluvs, fuzzibunz, etc. It was easy to start. I later found this board and learned about WAHM diapers.


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## ThirtySomething (Feb 24, 2004)

Most wahm's have a period of time in which they do "volunteer work", as my dh calls it. This is pretty normal during the start-up phase of a business. Some do it longer than others. Ask me how I know that?







In the beginning, there are so many aspects of the business to attend to and supplies needed that it is nearly impossible for a wahm to get paid adequately for her time. Then, after the nuts and bolts of the biz are in place, the product should have a proper mark up that both sustains the future production of the product AND provides some sort of income (I'm not saying it will be big at first!) for the wahm.

My dh *always* talks to me about the supply/demand equation, and of course, I'm pig-headed and I think





















BTW-He has years and years of experience in budgeting and analyzing so I know he is right.







Anyway, after almost 5 years, I'm finally really paying attention to that equation and it can and should be applied to the wahm world.


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## Rising Sun (Sep 15, 2003)

I was making it my goal to try one new wahm per month. Unfortunately, I recently had some huge and unexpected medical bills (my son had an accident). My dh's insurance isn't as good as it used to be and we now have a high deductible. Sooooo.... it affects everybody.

Most wahms I talk to have their sales at a halt right now... many are debating closing up shop... some even having to go back to work outside the home and put the kids in daycare.

The economy slow is very hard for all of us.... and I hope it bounces back very soon.

About the prints.... knit prints are very hard to come by. In order to get ones that nobody else has, one could pay $10 per yard. This drives up the price of the diapers, and people aren't willing to pay that price. They are expensive to make, though. Hemp can run as much as over $8 per yard. When you add thread and snaps, it can cost $10 to make a diaper. If a wahm sells the diaper with free shipping for $14, she might make a $2 profit. That's for the time spent making the diaper, packaging it, keeping paperwork filed and accurate for tax purposes (one has to keep very good records), and either going to the post office, or printing the postage up, taping it to the package and taking it to the mailbox.

People want cute prints, free or cheap shipping, same or next day shipping, emails answered right away, instock and custom, pretty packaging, and freebies. That's all great, but it has to be reflected in the price of the diapers.... a wahm can't afford to lose money. But, she needs to find something unique in order to bring customers. ....and that's why so many wahms are doing woven prints now. They are much easier to find, and there are SO many.

Hopefully, the market will pick back up soon, and all wahms will be happy once again. IN the meantime, I am going to try to continue trying out the newer wahms products once a month.







It makes me feel good, and $20 is not all that much money, really. I've been browsing wahmchicks for new things too.









Teri


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## michray (Aug 11, 2003)

Well put, Teri!!


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## sedalbj (Mar 17, 2004)

I personally don't have a problem spending a few extra bucks for nice prints on dipes that I know will work for my DD, especially great wool designs on covers. The hesitation comes in when I am looking at great prints that I am not sure will fit or not... That is when I wish I could just try it on first. A catch22 for all involved.


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## jmreinke (Jan 1, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michray*







Well put, Teri!!









nak

ITA!

I think that's a great idea to try one new WAHM a month. I think I'll do that to!


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## HRC121799 (Aug 8, 2003)

I know that at least for me, I was buying more around tax/Christmas time, when we had extra $$$. Now though, we have enough diapers, and I've learned to be content with it, and we're putting extra $$ elsewhere. I'm done buying diapers. The buying frenzy is just in a lull for others too maybe.


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## Baby Hopes (Jul 15, 2004)

_Mind-numbing_. Thanks Julia for supplying the words I was looking for to describe how hard it is to break into the CD world. And I mean it. It's taken me 7 months to brave it. And even know I use mostly PF's and covers. I have a few fitted dipes I've sewn myself... but as far as purchases? I am reluctant to spend ANY money on diapers that won't work.

How does a newbie figure this stuff out? I've tried to read up on everything... but the CD language code is heard to break. Fuzzybums, mudflaps, knit, print, woven, AIO... My mind spins just trying to make heads or tails of all of it.

I would gladly support a WAHM with my $$. (Which, by the way is burning a hole in my pocket.) But I am reluctant to purchase anything until I know it will work. So I relegate myself to ebay and I prowl the 'deals.' Hoping that soon I will find my nitch and begin to trully contribute to the CD world of WAHM's.

I wish there was a place where I could go IRL to touch and feel the diapers. To get advice on what will work for my 22 lb 7 mo old. To figure out what I need for nighttime dipes.

So... guess I don't have much advice for those trying to make it in the WAHM CD industry. Except, maybe, find a way to get your product into peoples HANDS. To me prints and what not are secondary to function. Oh, and keep the language simple. I wish I could go to a site that declared, "_A slender fit for the chunky baby who hates feeling wet at night_." If I could find THAT diaper I would be in _heaven._


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## ChichosMama (Aug 20, 2004)

I think a lot of it is on word of mouth. Really have to try hard to get your name out. I plan on opening up a store of my own eventually, but I know I have access to cheap(prices) that many do not.
I know I will return to someone if they have excellent customer service, are "easy," original, and of course are of excellent quality.
Money burns in my paypal- if you want to spam me up with your dipe stores feel free to! lol


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## Izzybee (Feb 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChichosMama*
I have access to cheap(prices) that many do not.

So are you gonna tell us?


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## ChichosMama (Aug 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Izzybee*
So are you gonna tell us?









Well I live in SoCal, somewhat near Downtown LA where the "disrticts" are. One being the fabric/textile district where you won't pay more that 7 dollars a yard. Mostly the prices for what you would need are about 1-3 dollars a yard. It's great. I love it.


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## Clarity (Nov 19, 2001)

I would underline the seasonal observation. It seems like every year we're suprised how slow things are on ebay...things ending with no bids, going for super cheap. I generaly clean up during august. WAHM biz is, I think, timed similarly. Maybe accentuated by the economy. And then if you find you're not hyena flavor-of-the-month, it's a triple blow. But for most commerce, I think things generally pick back up in september.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

After reading this thread, and the comments, I think that I have a much deeper understanding of the world of the WAHM. It's strange, but I think I was thinking of it just from a business perspective, i.e., how to drum up business in times of recession by concentrating on the top ten percent of customers, etc. I failed to realize on a real level that the very thing that makes this so fascinating is that these are individual artisans creating diapers and covers in their own homes.

I understand now that there is a real relationship between the mommies buying the diapers and the mommies selling the diapers.

I think that's part of what makes this so obsessively interesting. Thanks for enlightening me!


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## 3_opihi (Jan 10, 2003)

Thanks for all those links kindmomma!!!

Its hard, because I didn't even know those companies even existed, yet I am one of those mamas due in Feb. So I desperately need diapers!! It seems that whenever I look, nothing is instock, or the store is closed. Maybe we need a thread about whats instock, so us newbies (ok this will be my third, but I never used boutique diapers before) can figure out where we can actually get stuff?

Maybe its advertising? I dunno. I usually just look for what I hear everybody talking about on the boards. Not that I've ever been able to actually get any of it, LOL. If I knew that those other places existed I would definitely go there. Ok, well I just got some stuff from Darling dipes, and I plan to get some stuff from those other places as soon as DH oks it


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