# Raising Children Without Grandparents ...



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

and virtually without any extended family ...

I keep hearing stuff about how kids learn how to treat us by how we treat our own parents. And it's because I felt so strongly about my children's needs to know "their roots" and have extended-family relationships, that up until a few months ago I attempted to keep up some contact with my extemely-critical 84yo mother, and some other (also rather critical) family members.

It was difficult to spend much time with Mom, she is so negative about my parenting, and basically has no confidence in my ability to make sound decisions as an adult and as a parent. But we were visiting her (as a family group *only* -- we didn't send our girls on their own) once or twice a month for about 1-2 hours at a time ...

When I first became a mother 8 years ago, I'd started out taking time to discuss and explain my decisions to my mom. However, it became increasingly clear that she just wasn't listening. And as our girls have grown, she's expressed her view that I'm "good with tiny babies" but just have no clue about meeting children's needs once they need to do more than sit in my lap (both girls are very active -- so, you know, they've been doing a lot more than lap-sitting for a long time now







).

Whatever. Six months or so ago, I resolved that I'd get into *no more* fruitless discussions with her about my parenting-choices. I started being matter-of-fact about cutting visits short if she started to cross my boundaries. At first, it seemed to be "working." She gave up on trying to start stuff, once she knew that I'd just say "I gotta go" and hang up the phone, or start getting everyone ready to head out the door if we were at her house.

However, just because she'd quit talking *to* me (about how worried she was about my girls), that didn't mean that she'd quit talking *about* me to anyone who would listen. She'd talk to her relatives, and also to people in church. One of my friends who goes to my mother's church said that Mom talked with her last summer about her worries that my girls just weren't getting the educations they needed.

So ... in September we got a visit from a Children's Services worker. She said they'd received a report of educational neglect, and she also mentioned some other concerns (and what she said made it clear to me that the call must have come from my mother or from one of the many people she'd been talking to about us ... the things brought up weren't stuff that just "everyone" knew about us).

Though my mom denied making the call, I told her that even if it wasn't her, it was still caused by the fact that she's been saying horrible things about us, to the point where someone felt a need to call. Mom expressed surprise when I told her that the social worker had determined there was no need to open a case; she said, "Oh, you mean she *agrees* with homeschooling?"

So, anyhow, I told Mom that dh and I had decided that we needed to break contact with her, because it just isn't safe to have our girls around anyone who's so critical of our parenting -- we see no guarantee that there'd be no Children's Services case opened in the future, in the event that people keep hotlining us (which is more likely to happen if we're in contact with critical people).

Since my siblings (and their grown and nearly-grown children) are just as critical of our homeschooling and other parenting-choices, we've broken contact with them, too.

My dh's only living relatives who he has contact with are his elderly mother in a distant state, and his adult married daughter who also lives far away, we see her maybe once every 1-2 years.

It feels weird this Christmas that it really is just us now -- I know it's going to be fun, but I keep hoping to "grow" our own extended-family. At the same time, I seem to have really low-energy when it comes to reaching out right now, and I feel rather guarded, too, because of the recent social worker visit. I find myself wondering if other people might develop "concerns" about us, too, if they get to know us.

But I don't want to be paranoid, and I don't want to shut my children off from the world, either. Advice?


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## anywaybecause (Jul 9, 2008)

No advice -- I'm sorry -- but I wanted to offer a







. I remember your cps thread.

I hear the same stuff about how kids learn from the way we treat our own parents. So I just try to shield my kids from the worst of it -- they will figure it out eventually on their own.

Maybe, as time passes and you grieve what you've lost (and you have lost something, even if it was only a fantasy . . . ), you will feel more comfortable reaching out and creating a new extended family.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I'm very sorry your mother did that to your family.









I'm raising my kids with almost no extended family as well. We will spend Christmas eve with my sister, bil, and two nephews but we are not what I'd call close to say the least (they are not close with my children). My in-laws are not in the picture, neither is my dad. My mom has been in the past which was probably a big mistake on my part she's toxic as is the rest of my family of origin and I don't have anything to do with them really.
I think that raising children w/o extended family is better than exposing them to very toxic and unsafe people.
It is hard though and it makes me sad that most of the people I share blood with don't care about me or my children and even if they did they are just too toxic.

I had hoped to make an extented family for my kids too but it just hasn't turned out that way.


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## Maluhia (Jun 24, 2007)

I'd say create traditions that matter to your group - volunteer together on Christmas day or always paint cookies together to take to the retirement home down the street, etc. Make your memories about caring about others in the world and the "loss" of an emotionally abusive grandparent won't be a big deal at all.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I have limited contact with my parents for similar reasons, and a few other issues.

Dh's parents live far, far, far away. We aren't able to see them often.

We don't have other family nearby either.

It was weird doing holidays for a while. It's just us. But we've gotten used to it. It's easier now that we have a kid - when it was just me and dh we just didn't celebrate holidays generally.


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## nolonger (Jan 18, 2006)

Subbing.

I'm doing the same for similar reasons. I do have a 19 year old daughter and an almost seventeen year old son, but it still feels funny to think of them as Terran's extended family.

My own grandparents were very important to me so raising a child without grandparents is more of an issue to me than being a single mama by choice. I'm currently working part time as a caregiver for a disabled 79 year old and taking the baby with me, which fills the void nicely, but as her health deteriorates she needs more than I can give her and my hours keep getting cut back.

As far as kids treating you the way they see you treating your own parents, I have worried about that too but my older kids are showing me that my fears are unfounded.

They saw me being kind to my parents when they frustrated me and now they are kind to me when I frustrate them.

They saw me making an effort to explain homeschooling in terms my parents could understand so that I could share my excitement and love for what became my greatest accomplishment and life's work, so they take the time to explain their own passions, Modern Dance and Law Enforcement, to a klutz who hates police brutality.

ds1 saw how bad it hurt when I realized that I had to protect my youngest son by hiding his existence from my parents, so he came home after running away to live with his father for a year and has made a huge effort to reconcile and respect my parenting choices with ds2.

My children saw me treating my parents well so they treat me well. How my parents treated me is irrelevant to them or else it just makes me look good in comparison. 

Mammal_mama, there's a support thread in Personal Growth for those of us with estranged and toxic parents. I've been flabbergasted by how many of my favourite MDC posters whio have the best advice are coming there to vent and say "me too"; you're in good company.








:


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

We have a "moms without moms" tribe for moms raising kids without their moms. My parents are both deceased, and my DH's mom, while she is still alive, is on the other coast, and is not really at all involved with us, so we are essentially raising our son without grandparents. And it's not easy. But we do it. I didn't hear that your kids learn to treat you the way they see you treat your parents. There must be other ways as well.


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## OkiMom (Nov 21, 2007)

We are pretty much raising our girls without our parents but its not by choice. DH is military and we live in a different country, it will be another 2-4 years before we go back to the states. Until then we might be able to swing one visit back to see them. Even if we lived closer we would have very limited, if any, visits with my Dad. When we did live in the states we were a two hour drive and we might have seen each other once or twice a year.

Im not worried about them learning about how to treat their parents by watching how their parents treat their grandparents. Honestly, Im really glad that I have never treated my Dad like he treated his parents, hes not a good role model. I only saw my Mom's mom twice a year growing up so there wasn't much contact there. However, from what my ILs say Im one of the nicest daughters they have (I don't listen to my Dad's opinion of me, hes still mad I didn't move back in to take care of his housewhen I left the military) I defintely didn't learn how to be nice to my parents from my parents.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Thank you for all of these kind words, everyone!









I think I will check out that thread in personal growth, and also the tribe moms without moms ...

It's just so weird, all the twinges of guilt I keep feeling, thinking of my 84yo mom. Even though she's the one who's chosen to criticize rather than nurturing a relationship with me.

I think maybe the people who are so wrapped up in the idea that "Our kids learn how to treat us by seeing how we treat our own parents" are more wrapped up in the generational-gap stuff. I think our kids learn how to treat us, and other people, primarily by how we treat *them*, you know?

And I love and respect my kids. I always endeavor to treat them as I like to be treated.


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## hedgewitch (Jan 24, 2008)

I don't know if my post it totally relevant to you but your story moved me to reply. My dp and I have chosen to live in a different country to our families - not because we don't like them, lol. It means that ds has little contact with his family except by phone and annual visits (though not everyone every year). He is very happy when he is with them and we talk about them often.

We also lost my mum this year. I talk about her all the time to keep her in our family. I will continue to do so for the rest of our lives. Just because she is not physically here does not mean she will not be part of our loving family.

I would love to have more loved ones close, I would love to have the help and support that would bring. BUT, I also don't have to deal with criticism or people I don't like! There are members of our family I would not particularly want around, and even some of those I love I can only cope with in certain doses. My family is me, dp and our children. The rest of our family are our extended family, I adore them but it is not their job to be involved with our family decisions. Being absent of some of those connections gives us a freedom to make decisions and judgments without input, something we value.

There are many who have no choice about family being absent, for lots of reasons. If your family are mean and critical then I see it as no loss that they are absent. My mum was a wonderful, loving mum and grandma, I feel her loss terribly. It is our reality, though, so there is no sense in feeling bad about the 'impact' on my ds. I really think the core base of a family, the parents, are what matter most to a child. A loving extended family is wonderful icing, but mean people who undermine or take away from your joy are eating into your cake!

Good luck with setting boundaries with your mum and others. I'm sure your children will be happier when they see their mum confidently living a life where she requires respect and is able to more freely give love because she is happy


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hedgewitch* 
I really think the core base of a family, the parents, are what matter most to a child. A loving extended family is wonderful icing, but mean people who undermine or take away from your joy are eating into your cake!

Wow! What a great analogy!

Quote:

Good luck with setting boundaries with your mum and others. I'm sure your children will be happier when they see their mum confidently living a life where she requires respect and is able to more freely give love because she is happy








Thank you!


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Our children have very few family that we are in contact with. (one cousin, one uncle by marriage but we don't see him often, my sister in law) They never knew their grandparents before they passed away, and don't have any other aunts, uncles, or anything. The few other relatives I do have I keep them away from because they are very toxic. (they also have drug issues and were abusive to me in the past)

Its hard, especially this time of year... and when my kids talk about their grandma's they invented because they don't have any..


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Nature --







It's good to see you again!


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## nolonger (Jan 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Nature --







It's good to see you again!









:


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

The most important thing is that your dds see you and your dp treating each other well. That will have more impact than the extended relatives. In some ways, it was fortunate that my mil and dh severed their relationship when ds was so young (2 1/2). Ds did ask after her for a couple months. I do wish my ds had more than just my mother as a grandparent (my dad died 10 years ago) but maybe it's better to have fewer healthy relationships than plenty of judgmental ones.


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## Kappa (Oct 15, 2007)

My father and my DH's mother have passed away, and my mother and DHs father are on the cusp of mental illness. DHs father at least takes anxiety medication and stopped drinking, but his pretty ill and depends on others for care. My mother on the other hand is spiraling without medical help and just this past Thanksgiving disinvited me, my DH, and the LO from her house and we ended up spending the holiday with just us and DH's brother. It was a good time anyways, but I am letting go of the fantasy that my mother will be the "good granny" and that my LO will have doting grandparents. He is 9 mo and neither of his grandparents have so much as bought him a toy. And he is the first grandson on both sides! It's the same for aunts and uncles. His DCP has given him more material things than all of his extended family combined. Aunts and uncles are very hands off because of the lies my mother has told. How can you get close to a nephew who is supposedly damaged by "abuse" without exposing yourself to possibly being accused next, even if you don't totally believe the accusation, and especially if you don't believe the accusation? It's still out there, KWIM? If lies can be told about the parents, lies can even more easily be told about aunts and uncles. I totally understand it because I treat my godchild with kit gloves as well because of accusations floating about, none confirmed, just put out there to hurt people I guess, I don't need my husband or myself to get caught up in any of that. And while I can get past a lot of stuff, I just don't hold grudges, abuse accusations are so loaded when people through them about all willy nilly like that it's not something you can forget even if you forgive. My mother does not understand that, she thinks she can say any hurtful thing she wants and all hurtful statements are equal, when an abuse accusation is not the same as criticizing some one's parenting. They are two different echelons. It puts everyone on "notice" and complicates relationships that were meant to be simple and loving. That's just the way the world works, adults have to protect themselves as well.

It's sad because while we certainly didn't have grandparents who spoiled us, but I remember spending weeks at both of my grandparents' homes just enjoying their company from the time I was very young. I have very vivid memories of pop tarts and rides around town with my grandfather when I was about 3, my grandmother doing my hair, and my other grandmother fixing me bologna sandwiches that I refused to touch. I hope my son will have good memories of his grandparents, I'll try to create some type of appropriate setting where he can interact with them, but he won't be cared for by them any time in the future. As for aunts and uncles, that is up to them whether they want to be closer to the baby, I trust them totally to care for him in my absence but I don't think they feel comfortable with that.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kappa* 
And while I can get past a lot of stuff, I just don't hold grudges, abuse accusations are so loaded when people through them about all willy nilly like that it's not something you can forget even if you forgive.









That's how I feel, too. And, as I've said, my mom may not have been the one who called children's services on us -- but I've heard back from enough people to know that she's been talking very badly about my parenting ...

After all this went down, I called the one aunt and uncle who I didn't think were involved in all the ugly rumors circulating about us. And I still don't think they were involved -- but my aunt did question me about whether I was following a "progressive curriculum" -- and I decided it wasn't a good idea to explain to her about our unschooling. I just said that so far we've been finding lots to do on the internet.

Anyhow, this aunt kept insisting that whoever made the call, did it from a "place of love and concern" -- and she just didn't feel I should break contact with my mom.

I guess some people can't understand -- they see accusations of child abuse and neglect as no different from any other type of family disagreement. I'm so sorry about how your mom is treating you!


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## mama_mojo (Jun 5, 2005)

Don't give up on making your own family. DH and I have always had more friends around than family, because neither of our families can be bothered much with boring things like tradition. Our children see us interacting with many elders. Admittedly, these people are not their family, but in our case, they are even better. And, I feel certain how we interact with them has a greater impact than how we interact with family that does not try to see us, or even try to meet us half way.


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## MG01 (Nov 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_mojo* 
Don't give up on making your own family. DH and I have always had more friends around than family, because neither of our families can be bothered much with boring things like tradition. Our children see us interacting with many elders. Admittedly, these people are not their family, but in our case, they are even better. And, I feel certain how we interact with them has a greater impact than how we interact with family that does not try to see us, or even try to meet us half way.

Agreed- I think that as long as you create an extended "family" in the form of community, and make sure the kids see you interacting with, and have the opportunity to interact with, a variety of people from different generations, roles, relationships, etc. I don't think you are depriving them of something essential.. Of course it must be hard to be in that position with family, but it's up to you to make sure that the people in your and your children's' lives are positive and supportive, and if family is not, that is on them. I am sorry that they have gone to such lengths to discredit and harm you though..


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Yes, I know we need to press on in making our own family. It's slow-going right now, especially since dh and I have been going through lots of theological changes and no longer fit into our previous conservative denomination.

Mama_Gaia, this is a little OT -- but I recently started a thread about Christianity and Gaia in religious studies. And I've only had one respondant thus far, which leads me to think that I'm rather unusual indeed.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Nature --







It's good to see you again!


Quote:


Originally Posted by *noordinaryspider* 







:

















: People missed me? _Really?_








Its good to see you both too!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 







: People missed me? _Really?_








Its good to see you both too!









*Of course* we missed you!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Merry Christmas everyone!

Well, I kind of feel like crying, but I also feel relieved.

I impusively called my mom to wish her a Merry Christmas ... and in the course of the call I found out for sure that it was my sister who reported us to Children's Services, and though my mom wasn't involved with her making the call, in Mom's own words she "doesn't blame" my sister for doing it, and she feels I shouldn't blame her either, because my sister regrets starting her family so young, and wishes she'd finished college ...

WTH??? And my mom talked more about how the whole family is worried about my girls, because "education is so important to them." I said it is to dh and me, too ... Mom also said that people "have a right" to disagree with me, and that I can't control what other people do ...

And I said "It's 'other people' who are trying to control me." She said they weren't, and I said when people call the authorities on someone they disagree with, that *is* an attempt to control the other person.

Mom had started off the call saying how she had all these people at church praying for us, and was hoping we could all be reunited, and I had just said I wished none of this had ever happened ...

After hearing all the other stuff she told me, I finished off the call by affirming what I'd said before -- that it wasn't safe for us to be in touch with her, because she has so little confidence in my parenting, that I knew if we were in contact, she'd keep saying negative stuff, and my sister or someone else would feel a need to call again, and it was just too much stress on our family.

Overall I'm glad I called, because now I have total confirmation that it was my sister who reported us. So I won't lie awake anymore worrying about the minuscule possibility that maybe I was falsely accusing my relatives. And since I know my mom agrees with my sister calling, I won't feel sad for her anymore, thinking she's just a naive lady who talks and has no idea of the damage her words can do.


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

i'm also raising my dd without contact to my family. it can be hard, but at the end of the day, it's my child's safety.


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## emski4379 (Aug 23, 2006)

Hugs to you. I've been following the story, and now that I'm a mom, I can't imagine ever treating my children the way your mom has treated you.

BTW-What have you said to your sister about this situation?


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Mammal_mama, Big







to you.


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## MG01 (Nov 17, 2008)

Just read your most recent update..


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emski4379* 
Hugs to you. I've been following the story, and now that I'm a mom, I can't imagine ever treating my children the way your mom has treated you.









Thanks to you, and to everyone!

Quote:

BTW-What have you said to your sister about this situation?
I actually don't feel led to initiate any contact with my sister over this. The last time I saw her was at a big family reunion we went to last summer. Things have been rather strained with her for a while now ...

Several months back, she'd found a curriculum that she thought would be really good for my oldest; it was expensive so she was wanting my mom to pay for it, and Mom said she was willing if I was willing to use it (we unschool, and don't feel a need to get a curriculum unless one of our children ever wants one for her own goals).

So, she showed me a sample-month of what the curriculum would be like. There were lots of activities for each day -- basically it looked like my sister had gone to various internet sites and printed out activites centered around the theme she'd chosen for that month.

I tried to be as polite as I could; I told my sister (truthfully) that I felt sure dd would enjoy lots of those activities -- however, dd has lots of her own ideas for what she wants to do with her time, so I couldn't justify having Mom pay for a curriculum when it would be very hit-or-miss as far as which activities we'd actually do.

(I didn't want to say that we have a computer and printer, too, so it's easy enough for me to do what she just did ... I just prefer to wait and see what dd's wanting to do each day, and print stuff out a little at a time as she's interested.)

My sister was polite, but I could tell she was let-down and had probably been hoping to make some money from my mom doing this. She and her husband both have health-issues and took early retirement (she's quite a bit older than me), so now things are rather tight for them, especially since they're trying to travel to all the places my brother-in-law wants to see, since they don't think he'll live much longer.

So, I can understand that a sum of each money each year for compiling stuff for my oldest (and eventually for my youngest) would probably help them out -- but I'm too honest to promise we're going to follow a curriculum when it's really totally up to my children, you know?

Anyhow, things were strained even before that, for a variety of different reasons. And I just feel really done with her now that she's done this. I have absolutely nothing to discuss with her. And she knows I'm not a vengeful person -- and even if I was, her kids are all grown now, so she has no reason to fear a tit-for-tat reaction.

I don't know if she's actually capable of making stuff up out of thin air -- but that's what she'd have to do now if she wanted to make a new report to CPS, since they've already investigated her recent allegations, and saw no reason to open a case with us over them.

Since neither she nor anyone she's in touch with will have any opportunities to observe my children, she'd have to just totally fabricate some new concern. I guess I'll just have to wait and see how low she's willing to go (I recently had a dream that CPS showed up again, and some of my dreams end up actually happening -- well at least one did, so I don't know) ...

It's weird because both my sister and my mom have been generous in so many ways over the years. My sister's really gifted with crafts and sewing, and has made some lovely things for us and our girls. Which makes it so awkward, you know? I'm still wearing clothes my mom has bought for me, so are the girls, and it's just impossible not to see reminders of their generosity around the house.

But I can't go through and make a clean-sweep, or my 8yo would be really upset, as some of these things belong to her, or she's attached to them. And, frankly, we don't have money to go out and buy a bunch of new clothes. I haven't bought my own clothes since becoming a mom 8 years ago ...


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## Purple Cat (Jun 8, 2008)

My heart goes out to you. I have very emotionally abusive parents whom I've cut off contact. They haven't and won't see my children for my protection and for the children's.

My first reaction to the concern that "your children learn how to treat you from how you treat your parents" was to wonder if that was something your mother told you.







It certainly serves her well -- and frankly, I'm not sure its true. I think your children learn how to treat YOU by how you treat THEM.

We are establishing our own holiday traditions. I think celebrating and having traditions. I cannot believe it helped your children to listen to your mother talk to you in that way in front of them.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Purple Cat -- I can't recall my mom ever telling me that thing about kids learning how to treat us by how we treat our parents -- I think one of the places I've heard this is actually discussion boards.









I agree with you that it's really more about how we respect them (our children) and one another. And I honestly don't believe I've ever disrespected my mom in front of my children.

Actually, this morning dh was reading some Bible verses about how we're supposed to pray for the people who say bad things about us, and I said that reminds me, I really need to be praying for Grammy and Aunt _____. I said I want to obey Jesus, and not start hating.

Just because I'm not going to put my family at risk, that doesn't mean I can't pray for these people who've tried to hurt us.


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