# How P&BL is handled...there seem to be questions



## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Ok, so I am opening dialogue since there seems to be questions.


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## Len (Nov 19, 2001)

I don't have any questions, but, since you asked, I would like to say that I am very disturbed to come to P&BL and look at all the ads for diapers, slings and whatnot. For some reason I always end up accidentally clicking on them and it just brings a lot of confusion and sadness. I know it may be technically difficult but it would be really nice if at least this part of the boards didn't include those ads.

Elena

ps sorry for the OT


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## rn (Jul 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abimommy*
Ok, so I am opening dialogue since there seems to be questions.


Is this question/dialogue in regard to the removal of threads and certain posts based on the diff. between m/c, s/b and neonatal loss?


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## nydiagonz (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:

Is this question/dialogue in regard to the removal of threads and certain posts based on the diff. between m/c, s/b and neonatal loss?
I am wondering the same thing. I am quite confused and hurt by the fact that this is a site that is supposed to help people through their grieving, yet we are "policed" when adressing our concerns and needs. There seems to me that there should be no confusion about people needing their own space to discuss issues pertaining to their specific experience. If MDC did not agree with this then they would not have a seperate board for Pregnancy *after* loss, which is a different issue.

I do not understand the rationalization behind the decisions being made by MDC to pull these threads, nor the resitance to having a seperate space for specific experiences.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Len*
I don't have any questions, but, since you asked, I would like to say that I am very disturbed to come to P&BL and look at all the ads for diapers, slings and whatnot. For some reason I always end up accidentally clicking on them and it just brings a lot of confusion and sadness. I know it may be technically difficult but it would be really nice if at least this part of the boards didn't include those ads.

Elena

ps sorry for the OT

Good point. I will discuss this with Cynthia. I can easily see how this is painful for many.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rnweiss*
Is this question/dialogue in regard to the removal of threads and certain posts based on the diff. between m/c, s/b and neonatal loss?

As far as that goes, I think perhaps the board has grown enough to open dialogue about seperating the issues. I really didn't know this was bothering so many and I think it would be extremely workable to seperate the forum into different issues.

We weren't aware there was a need, but since we do know now, it will be addressed immediately.

I am going to start dialogue with Cynthia about it, Ms Mom is ill but I will be certain to contact her and she can address it when she is feeling a bit better.


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## coleslaw (Nov 11, 2002)

As someone who has had both a m/c and a s/b, I know all to well botht he similarities and differences between both - at least for me. Both are painful, both are losses fo our children and both can bring you through a heart wrenching grief process that leaves you empty. Both require decisions on what to do next.

However, there are differences. I won't name them because for everyone they are different and it is nice to find people who have been through what you have been through. I know that I can't possibly discuss either of my losses with a woman who has lost her 17-year old despite the fact that we both loss children, just as I know that I don't go to my friends who have had stillbirths to compare notes on my m/c and I don't expect my friends who have had m/c to completely understand what I have gone through with my s/b. Both sides admit they can't help me in the way they wish when it comes to a situation they themselves haven't dealt with. They know what it feels like to lose their child inside of them, and they are there to listen, hold my hand and be a friend, but they can't relate more deeply than that.

With all of that said, I think it would be a shame to divide the board for the one main reason - we all know what it is like to have our babies die inside us or to have our infants for a only a very short period of time. A mom newly going through the grief process, having as many people as possible there for her is essential. This place has made a world of difference to me over the past year+ and for me, to divide would be like sending my sister to CA while I stay here in CT. Just more pain during an already painful time. .

I think whatever the issue was that started this discussion should be handled differently. I think all of us are feeling vulnerable and some feeling full of very raw emotions, but we are all adults. Could we come up with some way to fix the original problem without dividing us?


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## rn (Jul 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abimommy*
As far as that goes, I think perhaps the board has grown enough to open dialogue about seperating the issues. I really didn't know this was bothering so many and I think it would be extremely workable to seperate the forum into different issues.

We weren't aware there was a need, but since we do know now, it will be addressed immediate

I question that thought of seperating the issues. I for one have learned a lot about s/b and m/c by reading the posts all together. I have learned to have more compassion and can understand the greif that other mamas go through.

From an outside perspective what I saw happen was certain people lashing out at other people. And then instead of dealing w/ that issue, threads being removed to just end the controversy.

Being a mother who has never had a m/c I cannot know what that is like (and I hope I never do), but I can say that when I originally was looking for support after my son died, I found way more m/c support than neonatal death. For me that was very hard. Because although the pain is the same, the issues that have to be delt w/ as a result are very different. Coming to this MDC board was a blessing to me. And then learning of the MOA was even more of a blessing. Seeing how the invitation to join the group caused such a bad reaction and then seeing that removed made me just plain sad (well if its at all possible, yes, sadder than I already am).
It was as if MDC was brushing off late loss mamas (like me). Especially when there are so few places for us to go. It was as if you were not validating the fact that we have many issues to deal with after our babies die that other mothers do not. It is not the same as a m/c or even losing a 2yo or a 20yo child. I wont start to list them all, but if you want me to I would be more than willing to share.

Someone recently explained it to me like this.

It is like a 10oz cup filled w/ water and a 20oz cup filled with water. Both glasses lose the water, the 10oz cup is just as empty as the 20oz cup, is there a difference? Yes there is and no there is not. It is still the same water, but just a different cup.

So I personally do not think that seperating topics is the answer. I think the issue is that this should be a very gentle space for ALL of us to come to. When people start lashing out at others for no other reason except that they are angry, those people shoud be dealt with. Not just taking the topic and removing it.

I hope this all makes sense.

thanks, Robin


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## Debstmomy (Jun 1, 2004)

:


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## Ms. Mom (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *coleslaw*
With all of that said, I think it would be a shame to divide the board for the one main reason - we all know what it is like to have our babies die inside us or to have our infants for a only a very short period of time. A mom newly going through the grief process, having as many people as possible there for her is essential. This place has made a world of difference to me over the past year+ and for me, to divide would be like sending my sister to CA while I stay here in CT. Just more pain during an already painful time.

Coleslaw, you said that beautifully. We have had discussions on different types of losses and I think they've been very heartfelt.

I'm a bit opposed to seperating the forum by types of losses. I know we've had some recent issues with this and I'm sure we will again in the future.

However, I'm afraid that we would open up some deeper issues if we seperate these women. I feel that each pregnancy is unique and each loss is as well. Some women give birth with no isuses, and some have major complications. Just as two women may have a 12 week miscarriage and one pass the baby fairly easily and the other may have complications. Pregnancy and birth are unique just as each woman's loss.

My fear is that if we seperate the forum there will be other women who feel thier experience is also unique and feel left out that there is not a forum for their unique loss. This could lead to some hurt feelings. I'm also not too found of seperating things by gestational age for the same reasons.

Many woman in this forum have had multiple losses. Again, this puts them in a difficult place because they may not know which forum they belong in if their losses are different. I'd hate for someone to feel torn and not know where to post. Or for someone to have to ponder over which sub-forum they belong in.

I'm curious to hear what others opinions are on this.

I am sorry I've been gone this summer - I miss you all


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## starbaby69 (May 12, 2005)

rnweiss
So I personally do not think that seperating topics is the answer. I think the issue is that this should be a very gentle space for ALL of us to come to. When people start lashing out at others for no other reason except that they are angry said:


> I couldn't agree more. We all come here for a common reason--we have lost our children. We are all grieving, and are at different stages of our grief. We all get angry, confused, lost, etc..., and because of that we are all here to support each other. Like many others, I have also learned alot in this forum from other's experiences. So when people lash out, it is offensive and hurtful. They are the ones that should be dealt with, and it is a shame that it has gotten to this point. Maybe if one has a complaint about something, they should be guided to take it up in a PM and work it out there. No one here should ever feel guilty about seeking out others with similar experiences.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

I lurk here more than post, but I had a little daughter with a fatal genetic disease; and chose to have an abortion at 20 weeks.

Where the heck does something like that go? I don't really care to debate the abortion issue, it wasn't a m/c, and not really a stillbirth either, because of her gestational age and the fact that I chose to end it.

So I'm pretty against separating the types of losses.

Two years ago, I was aghast when other women compared their miscarriages with my loss, but now I see that a loss is a loss is a loss.


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## gossamer (Feb 28, 2002)

I am not in favor of separating the different types of losses. One of the benefits of sharing and reading stories is that you can always find someone else who is your worst case scenario. You can look at someone else and say, at least THAT didn't happen to me. It provides seeds for healing. For example, I go to a neonatal loss support group and there is a mother there who is just horrified that Mary Rose died before I woke up. That is her worst case scenario. But I am friends with a mom whose baby survived 6 months in a hospital with several operations and tests and invasive procedures and then died. That is my worst case scenario. I could then look at my situation and say "Yes, what happened to me was horrible, but at least Mary Rose didn't suffer." And that gave me a starting point in my healing. I just think we can all learn from each other and separating us by our losses is another way of segregating us from the population that doesn't want to acknowledge babies die.
Gossamer


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## JennInSeattle (Nov 22, 2003)

Well I'll be on the outside and say that I would have preferred they be seperated because stillbirth and late pregnancy loss was never a worry of mine until I came to this board and saw all the women who'd lost babies so late or after birth. Now it lingers in my mind.

That said there are many places on other boards I can go to if I just want m/c support but I still come here when I've needed it. I don't mind now that they are together but I can definitely support their separation.

I hope that doesn't offend anyone, there have been a number of incredibly caring s/b moms here who helped me when I needed it most even though they may not have been through the experience of a m/c - it has just been hard for me at times to see so many s/b moms and realize it's far more prevalent that I had ever realized.. my own issue though I suppose.


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## Ms. Mom (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gossamer*
I just think we can all learn from each other and separating us by our losses is another way of segregating us from the population that doesn't want to acknowledge babies die.
Gossamer

You said that beautifully!!! I completely agree.

I think it's nice too to hear other stories and come to understand their pain. Every loss truely is unique and comes with it's own set of issues weather it's an early loss or a late term loss. This forum has always been here for ALL women regardless.

Jenn, of course you havn't offended! I for one really appreciate your honesty.


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## gossamer (Feb 28, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JennInSeattle*
it has just been hard for me at times to see so many s/b moms and realize it's far more prevalent that I had ever realized.. my own issue though I suppose.









That is kind of my whole point Jenn, it is far more prevalent than most anybody realizes. It never crossed my mind before that if I got pregnant, I wouldn't bring that baby home. But now I know. Now I know that getting pregnant and bringing a baby home are the greatest miracles in the world. I also know I have a plethora of wise women who have suffered the worst loss imaginable and are willing to share their experience, wisdom and compassion with me as I worry about every little twinge, craving or lack thereof. Perhaps if more mothers realized that stillbirth or neonatal loss were more prevelant, we wouldn't feel so outcast and shunned by society. Rather than being scared of the fact, embrace it and learn from it.

WOuld we want to separate the vaccination forums because some women weren't aware that vaccines can cause autism spectrum disorders? DOn't we instead use the opportunity to educate and and at the very least make them aware of a segment of society that is mostly hidden? So too, shouldn't we mommas of late term losses be welcomed into society to educate, affirm and maybe even rock the boat a little?
Gossamer


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## Debstmomy (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gossamer*
That is kind of my whole point Jenn, it is far more prevalent than most anybody realizes. It never crossed my mind before that if I got pregnant, I wouldn't bring that baby home. But now I know. Now I know that getting pregnant and bringing a baby home are the greatest miracles in the world. I also know I have a plethora of wise women who have suffered the worst loss imaginable and are willing to share their experience, wisdom and compassion with me as I worry about every little twinge, craving or lack thereof. Perhaps if more mothers realized that stillbirth or neonatal loss were more prevelant, we wouldn't feel so outcast and shunned by society. Rather than being scared of the fact, embrace it and learn from it.

WOuld we want to separate the vaccination forums because some women weren't aware that vaccines can cause autism spectrum disorders? DOn't we instead use the opportunity to educate and and at the very least make them aware of a segment of society that is mostly hidden? So too, shouldn't we mommas of late term losses be welcomed into society to educate, affirm and maybe even rock the boat a little?
Gossamer









: I so wish I had not been scared of it all. I wish I had learned more, and talked to these Mama's here when I was pregnant with Alexa. Instead, I avoided this forum like the plauge & remained very ignorant (When I thought I knew alot.) Perhaps I would have learned something that could have changed my outcome, or my outcome may have remained the same, but I would have learned something.


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## taradt (Jun 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gossamer*
I just think we can all learn from each other and separating us by our losses is another way of segregating us from the population that doesn't want to acknowledge babies die.
Gossamer

After thinking about this for a few days I finally decided what I wanted to post and see that Gossamer put it better then me









To seperate would mean to start labelling the losses and would exclude the whole middle area of late miscarriage/early stillbirth.

When a mama comes here after a loss she needs as many people as possible to hear her story and acknowldege her angel, this is one of the few places where not only can I call my angels by their names but I am expected to and no one gives me that uncomfortable "oh you are taking about them again" look, or worse the "who?" response.

It is scary seeing all that can and does go wrong, it seems with each new mama's story I learn of yet another thing that can go wrong and it does scare me, but then all I have to do is read the PABL section and read all the happy stories of mama's who have gone on to have a living baby and that always gives me hope









tara


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## coleslaw (Nov 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *taradt*
To seperate would mean to start labelling the losses and would exclude the whole middle area of late miscarriage/early stillbirth.tara

My thoughts too, but let me add those who had to make the heartwrenching decision to terminate a baby of whom it was determined couldn't survive once it was born, etc. . I don't want to get into a debate of this issue, but we have friends going through this right now. Where would they go if they make this decision?


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## rn (Jul 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Debstmomy*







: I so wish I had not been scared of it all. I wish I had learned more, and talked to these Mama's here when I was pregnant with Alexa. Instead, I avoided this forum like the plauge & remained very ignorant (When I thought I knew alot.) Perhaps I would have learned something that could have changed my outcome, or my outcome may have remained the same, but I would have learned something.

I third what Gossamer and Cristina have said... It is such shunned and taboo topic, NOBODY wants to face the truth.
It also NEVER occured to me that my baby would die, even when Freddie was in the NICU, I still figured he was going to live b/c babies (esp. full term) dont die... (so I thought)
I wish every midwife and OB would tell every pregnant woman this fact. BABIES DIE. It is reality, and hiding from it and ignoring it is not going to make it go away.

~robin


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## rn (Jul 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rnweiss*

From an outside perspective what I saw happen was certain people lashing out at other people. And then instead of dealing w/ that issue, threads being removed to just end the controversy.

So I personally do not think that seperating topics is the answer. I think the issue is that this should be a very gentle space for ALL of us to come to. When people start lashing out at others for no other reason except that they are angry, those people shoud be dealt with. Not just taking the topic and removing it.



I am still wondering if someone could please address this question/ issue. Why were threads and certain posts removed instead of discussing the fact that not to agree w/ something or someone is fine, But "lashing out" is not okay.


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## wilkers8 (Mar 22, 2004)

I'm reading this thread and get the vibe that people are saying the same thing.

This issue is not about drawing a line and you must choose one side or the other but just educating people about various types of loss and the issues they may face. Many have said that reading stories about another type of loss has given them insight. I could see how someone new here, who has only experienced one type of loss and has yet to learn of the reality of how many losses there are, might get the impression people were judging or leaving them out. Whereas, after reading numerous m/c posts, I would completely not be offended if someone were to ask for other m/c mamas advice because I know that I could only truly offer an "I'm sorry". However, I don't want to stop offering those "I'm sorry" posts to all grieving mothers. I just don't want to be slapped on the hand for needing people to give me specific advice on the issues I'm currently facing.

I guess I pose this question...is there anyone that doesn't see there are different issues to face? Maybe we take for granted that all grieving mothers understand the issues we face, but is that really true? I know that I was one that didn't understand this until I continued to participate on this board after a month or so. I know that I didn't understand some of the trauma a m/c mama faces until I read posts from wonderful women like coleslaw. Maybe if this is shared straightforward (and granted it can't encompass everything) there would be less assumptions that people don't take another type of loss as seriously or that they think it's not as big of a deal.

Maybe I'm just rambling...


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rnweiss*
I am still wondering if someone could please address this question/ issue. Why were threads and certain posts removed instead of discussing the fact that not to agree w/ something or someone is fine, But "lashing out" is not okay.

There were a couple of reasons. First, as a grief support board it seemed a bit uncomfortable to have a thread bumped endorsing a board and people posting to say they were not accepted on that thread.

Also, there were debating posts, by more than one person. I have spoken to ST and told her that she could put the board in her sig, restart the thread (she could also probably restart it fresher with a bit more of an idea of what she would like to say and how she would like to present it) and also place the board in the resources section.

A post was removed from a thread because it is completely not going to be permitted to bump a grief thread to post off topic, negatively and completely unrelated to the grieving mother. That isn't going to be allowed.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wilkers8*
I guess I pose this question...is there anyone that doesn't see there are different issues to face? Maybe we take for granted that all grieving mothers understand the issues we face, but is that really true? I know that I was one that didn't understand this until I continued to participate on this board after a month or so. I know that I didn't understand some of the trauma a m/c mama faces until I read posts from wonderful women like coleslaw. Maybe if this is shared straightforward (and granted it can't encompass everything) there would be less assumptions that people don't take another type of loss as seriously or that they think it's not as big of a deal.

Maybe I'm just rambling...

I think many just feel it is easier to relate when they have been through the same or a similar situation, neither is more difficult or tragic but just having a certain understanding of similar grief (and having been through similar experiences) can mean a lot.


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