# Hot Sauce!!! Are You Kidding?



## LittleYellow (Jul 22, 2004)

An Article from todays Washington Post. Yet another way to be cruel to children grrrrrrr









http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2004Aug9.html


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## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

Anyone else want to crawl into a hole and forget that things like this ever occur? How do people dream up these ways to torture their children?


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## kylewilliamsmom (Feb 1, 2004)

Goll, it is really sick what people do to their children!


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## Clarity (Nov 19, 2001)

This article really bothered me. They made the effort to frame it as a debate...and had a sidebar pointing out that VA CPS didn't think it was a good idea...but still made it seem that most welfare agencies didn't have a firm position on injestion abuse and therefore was probably ok. To me it seemed weighted towards showing it as a legitimate method of discipline. The woman who said she only used it on her son in "extreme cases" like calling his sister a crybaby? Or the one who used it on her umanageable *2.5 yo*? I think I'll have to write a letter.

The guy from the Tabasco company was the most sensible of the bunch!


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Yeah, if you *only* use it 4 times a year, why are you carrying around packets of it in your PURSE?!









Sick, sick, sick!


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## WhimsyTyme (Jun 2, 2004)

Writing this is hard, I had to stop reading the article before I made it to page 4.

I was physically abused as a child - severly and reglulary so until the age of 7. During this time my biological father did many things in addition to hitting me, in his effort to prove who was boss.

I vividly remember having my cousin over to play one afternoon. Two things happened that triggered that man that afternoon - first we were giggling while drinking milk with our cookies and spilled the milk, second while we were playing in the den and crawling around my cousin some how got a needle that had been concealed in the carpet stuck through the toe nail of her big toe. HE WAS MAD!!!!

That evening after she left he and the woman that was supposed to be my mom (and protector) took me into our formal dining room. They pulled out two chairs and sat down. I was made to walk around the table until I was told to stop - I believe the reasoning was that I wouldn't have so much energy after this. After a while my legs got tired and I began to slow down and put my hands on the table or wall for support - each time I slowed or touched anything I was forced to take a spoonful of hot sauce.

It is amazing what we remember after 28 years!!!!!

One point I had immediately upon begining the article was this - the parents say it is the only way - so, if they are late to work a few times or don't make thier quota a few times, etc and thier boss tries to talk to them about it - should they have "hot tongue", since nothing else worked?

What about the mistakes (obviously this is one of them) that they make with thier children, as rasing children is a learning process and adults, fo rthe most part, are more capable of learning than children- after so many, should there be someone standing by to administer "hot tongue"?

I pretty much have this rule - I won't give anything to my son that I wouldn't have/eat/drink myself.

Needless to say this whole topic pains me!!!!!

ETA: This practiced was noted in the article as steming from the south - we are from the south.

...


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## Magnoliamama (Apr 20, 2004)

(((((((WhimsyTyme ))))))))) Hugs, Hugs, Hugs to you. What a painful experience and memory for you - brought tears and made me feel sick just sitting here and reading. Thank you for sharing your story - everyone needs to be aware of the negative and long-lasting impacts of every type of child abuse. I was also mentally and physically abused as a child, and I often hesitate to share stories, even when they could illustrate a point or share a lesson, or maybe even just feel cathartic to me. Hugs again to you.


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## ebensmama (Jun 8, 2004)

{{{{OH WhimsyTyme!}}}} I'm so sorry you were a victim of this type of abuse. Thank you for sharing your story.

A cousin of ours used to babysit a child whose mother instructed her to use hot sauce and a wooden spoon on the little girl. I don't even remember how it came up in conversation when she and I talked about it, but I asked her if she used them and she nonchalantly said, "Yeah...," and looked at me like it was weird I was even asking. I do not know what on earth makes people think this stuff if OK!

As an aside, she has offered to watch DS for us should the need ever arise. Uh...lemme think...you don't even have good enough judgment to question the use of hot sauce or a wooden spoon, lady! No thanks!


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Yuck yuck yuck. That's cruel.

The neighbor's grandson is 5 y.o. He's been a real handful. He's been "kicked out" (asked to leave) two preschools. I've had him over for playdates with my 5 y.o. ds. and I can concur, he's an imp!

About a year ago they were working with this child behavior therapist who introduced hot sauce punishment to them. I'd never heard of it before. I was horrified. I kept my mouth shut. When we had grandson over for a playdate they encouraged me to use hot sauce if he acts up. Yeah, right, like I was going to do that.

So grandson is visiting this week and I got to talking with Grandma about his behavior. They've had extensive testing done on him (seems the hot sauce didn't help). He had a seizures a few months ago and they now believe he has bipolar disorder.
















The poor kid was being punished for something completely out of his control! I feel dreadful for him. This boy is a REAL handful. He's not just spirited. He is very challenging. And his mom was only 20 when he was born, not married, trying to get her life turned around. His life wasn't exactly stable. Mom is getting it together, married a stable, responsible guy, they're buying a house and settling down. Stability, consitancy from his mom and step dad, and good medicine is going to make all the difference in the world for him.

But not hot sauce!!!








:


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

I must have one wierd kid. My seven year old daughter loves hot sauce. This would be a treat not a punishment. Anyway I thought I would add that on.


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## tboroson (Nov 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
I must have one wierd kid. My seven year old daughter loves hot sauce. This would be a treat not a punishment. Anyway I thought I would add that on.

Yeah, me too. My daughter wanted to taste my beer... well, everybody *elses* child who tastes it wrinkles his/her nose and never begs for it again. Not my girl. Now I have to put my bottle on top of the fridge when I'm not holding it. Same with coffee. (Note, neither one was administered as a punishment, they were offered as "You really think you want it? I doubt it - here, see." And, well, I was wrong...) Talia *loves* Indian and Thai food and chili, whatever I'm eating - and I order it hot. I think if I wanted to punish her with something flavor-wise, I'd have to choose something bland like white rice... And she's 2.5! Definately my girl...

However, despite my daughter's oddities, I am appalled by this article. This is just disgusting.


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

My sister used hot sauce on my nephew when he was, I think, 7 or so









I'd never heard of ingestion abuse but I remember thinking when she told me about it that it sounded pretty cruel.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Okay, without trying to offend Christians on this board, I have a genuine, NON-rhetorical question.

Why do so many conservative Christians (e.g., some of the people mentioned in the WP article, the Pearls, and [I think] Ezzo) practice what many of us here on this board would consider to be punitive, authoritarian, cruel, or just outright abusive methods of parenting?

From what I understand about Jesus, he loved children ("Suffer the little children to come unto me for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven," right?) and advocated a form of "gentle discipline," if we are to believe the story about the woman taken in adultery.

I can NOT, for the life of me, see Jesus putting Tabasco sauce on a child's mouth for ANY reason.

Isn't the fundamental goal of almost any Christian to be, well, like Christ? Isn't that why people wear those WWJD bracelets?

If all these things are true, then really -- how do Christians reconcile their childrearing methods with their faith or the example of the man they revere as their savior and messiah?

Explanations, anyone??


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

I don't think I could share my theory without offending some fine people here at mdc. I'll just acknowledge that I know what you mean, CB; I've observed it, too.


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## wombat (Nov 3, 2002)

I just find this practice disgusting and horrifying. Prying open a child's mouth so you can inflict some pain? I'd like to spray a few of those parents with some pepper spray.

If this is a regional practice by a minority while the majority disapproves of it, why isn't there some government campaign against it. It may not technically be against the law but that doesn't mean those government's shouldn't be doing something to actively discourage it.

CharlesBaudelaire, I'd like to know too. I think it just starts with mean, nasty people who look for something vague in the Bible to support what they're doing and gain credibility. And in a religious community, if you have someone in power who's advocating practices like this, it can be hard for followers to argue against one practice without being seen as being against the leader/the religion in general. I think some mean, nasty leaders (religious or otherwise) just take advantage of this and use it further their sick philosophies.


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## green betty (Jun 13, 2004)

Wow, I hope I didn't wake dh up yelling "evil b***h!" at my computer while reading that article.

Thank you for sharing your experience, WhimsyTyme. I'm so sorry that happened to you.

My *favorite* part was the advice to say "I can hold your hand or your hair" when crossing the street. That woman doesn't deserve to be a mother, much less making money off child-raising books!


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## magnoliablue (Dec 29, 2002)

Add my kids to the list of kids who would drink hot sauce out of a bottle for fun. Must have been all the Firehouse Hot chicken wings I ate when I was preg with them. They also eat lemons... like you would eat an orange.

This method of discipline, if you can wrap your mind around calling it that, is very old school. I never had it done to me, but had friends growing up that did..same for the wooden spoon treatment. I was fortunate to have parents who would never have thought of doing that, my best friend growing up was not so lucky







..I just hope when she has kids of her own she does not repeat this example.


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## hjohnson (Mar 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
Okay, without trying to offend Christians on this board, I have a genuine, NON-rhetorical question.

Why do so many conservative Christians (e.g., some of the people mentioned in the WP article, the Pearls, and [I think] Ezzo) practice what many of us here on this board would consider to be punitive, authoritarian, cruel, or just outright abusive methods of parenting?

From what I understand about Jesus, he loved children ("Suffer the little children to come unto me for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven," right?) and advocated a form of "gentle discipline," if we are to believe the story about the woman taken in adultery.

I can NOT, for the life of me, see Jesus putting Tabasco sauce on a child's mouth for ANY reason.

Isn't the fundamental goal of almost any Christian to be, well, like Christ? Isn't that why people wear those WWJD bracelets?

If all these things are true, then really -- how do Christians reconcile their childrearing methods with their faith or the example of the man they revere as their savior and messiah?

Explanations, anyone??

I think a big part of it (I'm a Conservative Christian) is how certain people interpret the scriptures. Why do you think there are so many denominations out there including 26 different denominations of the Baptist Church? They can't agree on anything. In the verse "Spare the rod and Spoil the Child" some people interpret the rod (Pearls, Ezzos, Dobson) as device used to spank. I believe the Hebrew meaning of "rod" means to guide, train, etc. Of course, I hear it all the time of someone raving about some Christian Leader and of course their friends want to know more. Thankfully our church hasn't been touched by the Ezzos or Pearls. I think they are disgusting.

My sister and I were never given the experience of hot sauce but Mom loved to throw water in my sister's face when she was having a tantrum and we both got soap in the mouth if we uttered a curse word.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Why do some conservtive Christian groups do this? I don't know, why does anyone? I think it is a classic case of wanting to do something, and then looking for a reason to back you up (for the leaders) and the followers are abdicating their responsibility by blindly following these leaders words. It is sick. As a Catholic, I feel lucky that we are so connected to Mary, I try to think of what she would do in ceratin situations, or what Christ would do- and you are so right, he wouldn't do these things. The God of the Old Testament might though, that is where these people get their ideas from. Sigh... no real answer I guess, but I tried.

On topic now- I didn't read the article, but I know about "hot sauce treatment", my ex-SIL used it and my MIL told me about it, saying how it was clearly abuse (I agree) but she (MIL) used liquid hand soap in the same way and thought that was a good idea







. I have no idea what these people are thinking, but it is truly a sick side of their personalities to come up with ideas like this.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wombat*
And in a religious community, if you have someone in power who's advocating practices like this, it can be hard for followers to argue against one practice without being seen as being against the leader/the religion in general. I think some mean, nasty leaders (religious or otherwise) just take advantage of this and use it further their sick philosophies.

**Well, then I guess I'm back to the WWJD argument again, because it seems to me that Jesus wasn't a lie-down-and-take-it kind of guy. He was, at least to me, a peaceful revolutionary. I guess I just don't get it, Wombat -- or rather, I agree totally with what you said, but I still don't understand how the conservative Christians can justify this to themselves, that's all.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hjohnson*
I think a big part of it (I'm a Conservative Christian) is how certain people interpret the scriptures. Why do you think there are so many denominations out there including 26 different denominations of the Baptist Church? They can't agree on anything. In the verse "Spare the rod and Spoil the Child" some people interpret the rod (Pearls, Ezzos, Dobson) as device used to spank. I believe the Hebrew meaning of "rod" means to guide, train, etc. Of course, I hear it all the time of someone raving about some Christian Leader and of course their friends want to know more. Thankfully our church hasn't been touched by the Ezzos or Pearls. I think they are disgusting.

My sister and I were never given the experience of hot sauce but Mom loved to throw water in my sister's face when she was having a tantrum and we both got soap in the mouth if we uttered a curse word.


Not to start a holy war here, but again, why are the CCs (Conservative Christians) using the OT for their guidance and not the life or example of Christ -- or, as Peppermint implied, the life or example of Mary?

Quibbling about whether a rod was a rod or a directional/guidance tool or a paddle or a sheep-spanker is absurdly hairsplitting, even to me, and I've split more hairs than a barber. No matter which version of the New Testament one uses, I still have not seen the Tabasco Translation at any point in my spotted religious career. I think you're right, FWIW, but in my ignorant view, this makes as much sense as a committed member of the NAACP teaching his children to be racists, KWIM?


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## mosky22 (Jan 4, 2004)

I couldn't read the article because I am not a member of the Washington Post. But I understand that the article was advocating using Hot sauce as a form of disciplin. Did the article specifically mention that Christian groups were advocating this? Or was it just the mention of it coming from the South? I am really offended by the generalizations that are being used, that Christians, conservative or whatever tend to be abusive to their children. I personaly think this is an example of bad publicity.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
Not to start a holy war here, but again, why are the CCs (Conservative Christians) using the OT for their guidance and not the life or example of Christ -- or, as Peppermint implied, the life or example of Mary?

Please, please realize that not ALL Christians, conservative or otherwise, raise children in a punitive way. In fact, I would guess that the percentage of Christian who spank, or whatever, is about the same as other religious people. I think we just hear about it more because there are more Christians in the US than, say, Muslims. But that's just my guess, I don't actually have any data to back it up.

To go back to the question, Christians (in general) take guidence from both the Old and New Testaments. There is a huge debate over what Jesus meant about his "fulfilling the law" and how that relates to the rules and structures in the OT. Unfortunately, even in you totally disregard the OT, there are some statements in the NT, though not from Jesus, that could be used to support physical discipline. Also, the Apostle Paul, who wrote large portions of the NT (well, conventional wisdom says he did, anyway), frequently uses OT passages and ideas as the basis for his thinking, so people have continued to do that.

That said, I have met very few Christians (and I work for and am committed to the church, so assume that I meet LOTS) who are consistant about what they do and do not "obey" from the bible. Which makes sense, because there are lots of places where things conflict and its just a lot to work through. So people tend to take those portions of scripture that are convenient, that justify what they want to do or believe, that support their personal history, that they have heard the most, that the priest recites in her sermon, etc. and follow those.

So, if you are in a Christian environment where things like physical discipline are preached, then you tend to accept that this is OK. Same with the acceptance or non-acceptance of homosexuality or premarital sex or all the other "hot button" topics of the moment.

I don't know, does that help at all?


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

CB: "sheep-spanker"














:


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

I am really offended by the generalizations that are being used, that Christians, conservative or whatever tend to be abusive to their children. I personaly think this is an example of bad publicity.

********************

Mosky, see if you can get hooked up for free to the WP site and then read the article -- I think that will help you understand my focus on CCs. A strong percentage of people quoted in this article were listed or identified as conservative Christians, Lisa Whelchel among them, for instance.

Evan and Anna's Mom - Yeah, it helps a great deal, overall, and it makes sense. As an "outsider," though, it seems simple to me, though, that if you're conflicted about something, to follow New over Old, Jesus over Paul, and above all, kindness over cruelty. That's me, though...but yeah, I do see what you're saying.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
Evan and Anna's Mom - Yeah, it helps a great deal, overall, and it makes sense. As an "outsider," though, it seems simple to me, though, that if you're conflicted about something, to follow New over Old, Jesus over Paul, and above all, kindness over cruelty. That's me, though...but yeah, I do see what you're saying.

No argument from me. I think the problem is that some leaders can be very convincing that they know "the will of God". And no one who believes in God wants to argue with that. Maybe one of the reasons that this seems so prevalent amongst more conservative Christians (and I'm about as liberal as they come, so am also "on the outside" here) is that conservative Christian churches often have very charismatic leaders and are less tied to a larger structure that can guide the leadership. Thus, one man is convinced that he knows what God wants. He convinces those in his church, and there is no voice asking questions. Whereas churches within a hierarchical structures (e.g. Catholic, Episcopalian, Lutheran, etc.) there are people above the individual pastor to keep things from getting so wrapped up in the conviction of a single individual. That's my theory, anyway.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

I can NOT, for the life of me, see Jesus putting Tabasco sauce on a child's mouth for ANY reason.
Amen. ITA

I am Christian, and would never do that. Its just wrong.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
No argument from me. I think the problem is that some leaders can be very convincing that they know "the will of God". And no one who believes in God wants to argue with that. Maybe one of the reasons that this seems so prevalent amongst more conservative Christians (and I'm about as liberal as they come, so am also "on the outside" here) is that conservative Christian churches often have very charismatic leaders and are less tied to a larger structure that can guide the leadership. Thus, one man is convinced that he knows what God wants. He convinces those in his church, and there is no voice asking questions. Whereas churches within a hierarchical structures (e.g. Catholic, Episcopalian, Lutheran, etc.) there are people above the individual pastor to keep things from getting so wrapped up in the conviction of a single individual. That's my theory, anyway.


***Wow. I know what you're saying is true, E&A's Mom, but wow...how can any one person OR group...OR religion, for that matter, limit God so much that they can know God's mind? Or how can they be so unbelievably prideful? I'm boggled.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

***Wow. I know what you're saying is true, E&A's Mom, but wow...how can any one person OR group...OR religion, for that matter, limit God so much that they can know God's mind? Or how can they be so unbelievably prideful? I'm boggled.

I've often wondered the same thing. Take a look around though CB...I have yet to see a sector of christianity (From Mormonism to Jehovah's Witnesses) who don't believe they are THE ONE.


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## nova22 (Jun 26, 2004)

a few months ago an infant died when his mother spread hot sauce on her nipples to wean him from breastfeeding. it doesn't get much sicker than that.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KatienDwayne*
***Wow. I know what you're saying is true, E&A's Mom, but wow...how can any one person OR group...OR religion, for that matter, limit God so much that they can know God's mind? Or how can they be so unbelievably prideful? I'm boggled.

I've often wondered the same thing. Take a look around though CB...I have yet to see a sector of christianity (From Mormonism to Jehovah's Witnesses) who don't believe they are THE ONE.

So far, I've only found two: Unitarian Universalists and Quakers.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

a few months ago an infant died when his mother spread hot sauce on her nipples to wean him from breastfeeding. it doesn't get much sicker than that.
Sick. I'm sick uke


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## BrettsMama (Oct 17, 2003)

My son is a biter. I've actually had people recommend that I put all sorts of horrible things, including hot sauce, in his little mouth as "discipline." In every case, I've let them know in no uncertain terms that will NOT be happening as I find it abusive. I mean COME on. There's no other way? Give me a break. Sometimes this world amazes me. Where it's ok to inflict all sorts of monstrosities and horrors on our children all in the name of "discipline."


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nova22*
a few months ago an infant died when his mother spread hot sauce on her nipples to wean him from breastfeeding. it doesn't get much sicker than that.











After reading that article, what little respect I had for Lisa Whelchel is completely gone.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I think what happens is people already have these abusive tendencies, then find a place that allows them to express them with "justification". I don't think it's so much an issue of loving families coming to this brand of christianity and then "steeling themselves" to be the "good christian parents" they are preached at to be, and going through with this sort of abuse.

Instead, I think you have people who already swallow the whole thing about kids being manipulative, evil creatures whose only goal in life is to wrap you around their fingers, add a touch of sadism - perhaps the toxic remnants of a dysfunctional childhood - and then throw in the fact that christianity is the main religion here and basically anybody can start a christian church....well, I sort of liken it to the fact that I came to AP because it spoke to me. I didn't have to force myself to be AP because I thought it was what I had to do, it came quite naturally. I imagine those types of christians are the same way, and it has little to do with christ, and more to do with finded like-minded souls, and a means to justify their cruel innate tendencies (and, in this country, the bible is the ultimate justification).


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## CerridwenLorelei (Aug 28, 2002)

last time I 'signed' up for WP i got a nasty trojan horse...
can you pm it to me or the basics?


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## Clarity (Nov 19, 2001)

large feature in the health section about how hot sauce was controversal as a discipline tool. They interviewed moms who use it, authors and therapists that suggest it. A few that don't, including the guy that makes tabasco. Try this to see it without registering:
http://www.bugmenot.com/


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

(((((Whimseytime))))
Your post made me cry. I'm sorry you had to go through that stuff. My sister's old eighbor's treat thierchildren that way, walk around,table hot sauce,and so many other horrible things. Your post made me remember them and I prayed agin for their safety. My sister tried to address the situation but the mom of 4 (maybe 5) never respondedpositively toward her childrenwho often hid out at sister's for a break from the yelling. Their mom didn't care b/c at least they weren't home bugging her.


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## CerridwenLorelei (Aug 28, 2002)

:JAW

does whelchel have something going with the pearls?? A clothespin on the tongue in addition to the hot sauce? and she thinks other moms that 'shake it in the mouth should have someone poking in their business"
why isn't anyone poking in hers fessing that she puts clothespins on her kids tongues

UUGGGGH

hooray for the Mcillney ceo though


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## Simplicity (Mar 24, 2004)

Lisa Whelchel has actually written a book about Child Discipline, and has Hot saucing as one of the options.

Other ideas include: spraying a toddler in the face with water when they have a temper tantrum, witholding meals if a kid fails to do a chore, and holding a child's hair if they refuse to hold your hand while crossing a street.

This woman scares me...


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## amyandelle (Jul 5, 2004)

My mom put hot sauce in my mouth when I was about 9 or 10 years old. I had been over at my grandma's house and my uncle and my cousins were there and while we were eating dinner my uncle started telling dirty jokes (swearing not sexual) so I told a joke that I heard at school and everyone laughed so we kept going on and on. Well I guess my grandma called my mom (who was at home) and told her about the joke telling. When I got home my mom pulled me into the pantry and pried my mouth open and put the hot sauce in my mouth. I immediatly ran to the sink crying and gagging so hard that I threw up.

Looking back on this now I see how wrong this was of her. She never even bothered to discuss the matter with me. She just put the sauce in my mouth and left the room.

Very sad and disgusting uke
Amy


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## whateverdidiwants (Jan 2, 2003)

One of the positive reviews on Amazon for Welchel's book makes reference to her advocating *burning your child's favorite toy if you catch them playing with matches*. That women is just plain sadistic.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

Ok first off... who would have thought Blair would grow up to be such a nut case!

I also know a couple people who use this and other vile methods of child correction. It is so messed up.

H


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaofthree*
Ok first off... who would have thought Blair would grow up to be such a nut case!
:LOL :LOL :LOL
H


As you all may know from my posts, I am raising my kids in a "rule centered household" Yet punishment, let alone physical punishment, is NEVER an option, nor desire. I'd love to explain to her why her methods are not only cruel but competely unnecessary.


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## RiceMomma (Jul 23, 2004)

I just want to contribute to the whole question of why people, specifically Christians, would do things like this to their children... In short, because their parents did it to them, and they remember that the spanking or hot saucing or whatever "worked" in the sense that they never did what ever got them in trouble again. They think physical punishments are going to help their kids follow the rules-- maybe even follow God's commandments.

A friend of mine, when we were both pregnant with our first child (long before i had ever heard of AP, and had at that time recently been convinced by my husband that spanking was wrong- I was raised spanked- I was a soon-to-be-mom who knew very little- thank goodness for my husband for teaching me a more loving way...) Anyway, my friend told me this long story about how she did something when she was about eight years old- broke something of her father's, and her sister took the blame and got spanked, and in some twisted way, that made my freind a better person... She really believed that spanking in her family made them better-- because her parents used it sparingly- like the ultimate punishment that was always hanging over their heads.

Now I see her threatening her little boy with spankings, and it breaks my heart, and I am so grateful I NEVER went down that path. She has always spanked him-- our little ones are 3 yo now. Her son hits and is very violent. my little girl wouldn't hurt a fly. Of course, personalities come into play, but I can't help but wonder...

IMHO, as a Christian, the Bible is pretty clear about physical punishment of children. Jesus explicitly said, when speaking of the faith of children "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." --Matt. 18:6. I think that applies to all children, as they are naturally innocent and easily know God. And not to mention, Christ's exemplary life, which has already been brought up.

But many "Christians" pick and choose what they want to believe or follow. Some only go to church twice a year. They may not really even know what the Bible teaches, or they will interpret it their own twisted way, and with spankings and what-not so ingrained in their own childhood, they may grapple with what little they do know to justify their behavior.

My few cents.


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## mommaluv321 (Aug 14, 2004)

WOW!!! I've never heard of this Welchel person, and thank goodness!! you ladies have opened my eyes to some of the sadistical things ppl can do to their children!! Then again, I guess this actually reflects on our society as a whole, that it's so easily accepted and that it's OK to do this crap to your kids. I mean i've heard about putting a lil' hot sauce on food and giving it to your dog to teach them not to beg (it's association training, they associate ppl food w/ spicy hot) but using it on your baby??!!?? I mean, aren't we supposed to be the top animal on our planet? Are we sooo evolved that we need to resort to torture to teach our young??







Then again, maybe I'M the one who's CRAZY!!


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## canadiyank (Mar 16, 2002)

Very sad...and yes, as a Christian I have often wondered WHY many churches advocate corporal punishment. Like others have said, people pick and choose what they want from the Bible - like "sheep spanking" (hilarious, BTW), I interpret it to mean "discipline" others interpret it to be literally hitting your toddler with an inch-thick stick; but yet they conveniently ignore the head-covering verses b/c that was "meant for those days."

As far as spanking/punishment being inconsistent with Jesus' teachings - I unreservedly agree! It's something I can't wrap my head around, either - BUT, had I not stumbled upon this site www.gentlemothering.com I would have been heading down the Dobson path, b/c, as someone else pointed out, that's the way I was raised.

I am not trying to defend spanking or hot-saucing Christians at all, just hopefully give some clarification, which is what was asked for, I believe. Be encouraged that there's many inter-denominational movements that are against spanking, and many books coming out, such as "How Would Jesus Raise a Child," "Grace-Based Discipline," and Crystal Lutton's "Biblical Parenting".

But still, I'm a little suspect at my church b/c we don't punish...sad, but true! And I've been gossiped about - another "no no," LOL, like THAT never happens! - the only thing I can say is we strive to be Christ-like, but we fall very, very short. Although I may be "more Christ-like"







in one way b/c I don't punish my child I definitely fall short in other areas...I'm grateful for God's forgiveness in those areas.

Wanted to add that the United Methodist Church has recently taken a stand as a denomination against corporal punishment!







I went to a UMC church for 3 yrs. and was thrilled to hear that!


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CerridwenLorelei*
last time I 'signed' up for WP i got a nasty trojan horse...
can you pm it to me or the basics?

You can try http://www.bugmenot.com for a password to the WP site.

I liked this part of the article: _"Just because something works, that doesn't mean it's a good idea," said Kimmel, author of "Grace-Based Parenting" (W Publishing Group)."Fear can be very effective as a discipline technique, but it's overkill. You haven't corrected the problem, and it means nothing in terms of building character. Our job as parents is to build character, not to adjust behavior."_


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## elephantheart (Sep 2, 2004)

That was so disturbing. I can never watch "Facts of Life" again without thinking of what a crackhead that woman is!


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## KermitMissesJim (Feb 12, 2004)

Hey, just found this thread.

I had a buddy in NY who was from the West. He had flaming red hair and a flaming red face. We were at our friend's house eating a traditional hispanic dinner. I ate ONE little piece of a homemade hot pepper (and was sick for 3 days afterwards). He ate pepper after pepper with no ill effects, didn't even break a sweat! Even my cajun dh sweated a little when he ate these peppers. Anyway, we asked him how it was possible that he wasn't affected by these peppers. He said when he was naughty as a child his parents made him drink hot sauce.
























I may see him this weekend, I should ask what he thinks of it and if he will do it when he has kids. He seemed nonchalant about it.

That is sooooooo sad about that baby. Did the mother go to jail?


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## Venice Mamacita (Dec 24, 2003)

I'm generally pretty supportive of a variety of parenting choices, but this practice is disgusting and appalling. Chili sauce and clothes pins on little ones' tongues? Is Whelchel kidding???

As a psychotherapist who specializes in working with children and survivors of abuse, I would absolutely and without hesitation report using chili sauce on the tongue to the authorities as child abuse. Frankly, every "corrective behavior" described in the article is reportable in the State of California.

I grew up in Florida, where my mother used to rub Tabasco on our lips (which burned worse than on our tongues) when we used the phrase "shut up." As a survivor of this -- and many other questionable tactics -- I will tell you that the effect this had on my two younger brothers and me was similar to being hit . . . it fostered nothing but feelings of anger, resentment, and mistrust toward our mother. These feelings continue 25 years later, and even though we know that she is now sorry for what she did then, it doesn't really help . . . the memories last a lifetime.

Finally, as the mother of an active, challenging, beautiful 17 m/o little boy, I'm deeply saddened that in this age, when parents have so much more information, they continue to choose these kinds of abusive behaviors. Lisa Whelchel and the rest of her ilk should be ashamed of themselves.

And they better hope their children never wind up in my treatment room.


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## DesireeH (Mar 22, 2003)

That is so so sad. People are sick!


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## Penalt (Jan 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
Okay, without trying to offend Christians on this board, I have a genuine, NON-rhetorical question.

Why do so many conservative Christians (e.g., some of the people mentioned in the WP article, the Pearls, and [I think] Ezzo) practice what many of us here on this board would consider to be punitive, authoritarian, cruel, or just outright abusive methods of parenting?

<snip>
Explanations, anyone??

They do it because they believe that they are doing what they have to do. Its not that they want to be or considered to be punitive, authoritarian, cruel or abusive, at least I hope not. Its because they are doing what they believe they have to do.


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