# Our pedi turned us to the Child Protective Services



## etc

Our 2 year old was bit by a dog about a month ago, minor cut, was OK 5 minutes later. The dog was more or less playing with it, not seriously attacking our son.

My spouse called our pedi and apparently scared her. I think she really blew it out of proption. She wanted to schedule something (a week later), but I canceled it since there was no reason. It was a tiny scratch that has since healed. She got mad and turned us over to CPS. Now our pedi has never seen our son, so it's totally over the phone stuff.

Now CPS contacted me, wants to come over, I said no. I heard that a lot of times they will try to build a case against you based on info they fish out from such visits. Then they demand that we come to them.

Do they have that right, to demand a meeting one way or another?


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## confustication

I think you want to avoid being branded as 'uncooperative' without reason. I'd offer to meet with them, explain the situation, and go from there.


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## Porcelain Interior

I'd be making an appointment with that doctor. (Not to see my kid either....)


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## jeliphish

I'm a cps worker. Believe me (or at least where I work) we don't walk around looking for cases. We have enough bad stuff to deal with... And unless there truly is something that is creating an abuse or neglect situation, there won't be anything to build a case on.
I would think it would just be simpler to meet the worker, explain the situation, and just be done with it. As I have explained before... We can get two seemingly similar calls into our hotline: "child bit by dog, parents refusing medical treatment". One case could be like yours and there is absolutely nothing going on- heck my grandmother's dog nipped my DD and broke the skin a tiny amount (15 year old dashhound) and we didn't seek treatment.
OR... The same call "child bit by dog, parents refusing medical treatment" and we get there and a 2 year old has been attacked by a pit bull because its parents were operating an illegal dog fighting ring and dealing drugs. The 2 year old was left alone with several dogs while the mom was high...

That's the nature of the job. Sometimes we have to investigate the situations where nothing is going on... And as soon as we realize that the quicker we can get on with our day...

IMO I would just talk to the CPS worker and get it all cleared up. No need to get all up in arms over nothing.


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## prothyraia

Health care providers are mandated reporters, so if your doctor was under the impression that there was a serious bite, and you were not coming in to have it treated, then she *has* to call CPS or she can get in biiiig trouble. Especially if all this was happening over the phone and she has now way of knowing what's really going on.

As far as CPS, I'm sure you could refuse to meet with them, but it might just be easier to say "Ok, look we'll come in for five minutes and you can see the 'bite' we're talking about" so they know there isn't a problem, rather than having them keep trying to follow up on a non-existent issue.


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## sapphire_chan

Actually, in this case, I'd go ahead and have them come over and just not let them in the house. Why drive in the snow to take 5 seconds to show them a healed scratch?


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## sunfish21

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Porcelain Interior* 
I'd be making an appointment with that doctor. (Not to see my kid either....)

Exactly!


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## khaoskat

Not sure where you are located, but I would also just contact the worker, and tell them you are more than willing to stop by and allow them to see the alleged bite, or they can come to your home and you will bring the child out to the porch for them to look at the bite.

My dog is very friendly (my daughter can walk up, pull its bowl of food out from under its face while eating, and then hand feed the dog), but while playing a bit rough the dog will sometimes scratch the skin with her claws of even accidentally graze the skin with teeth while playing with a toy.


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## Ofwait

Quote:


Originally Posted by *etc* 
*My spouse called our pedi and apparently scared her. I think she really blew it out of proption.* She wanted to schedule something (a week later), but I canceled it since there was no reason. It was a tiny scratch that has since healed. She got mad and turned us over to CPS. Now our pedi has never seen our son, so it's totally over the phone stuff.


You have a reported dog bite of a minor... you said your self that your spouse really scared the ped.... but are refusing treatment or even a visit... the Ped would be very irresponsible to not report a situation of this nature, and could loose her license over something like this if not reported.

She is doing her job.


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## lilyka

could you make an appointment at their office?

also if you have insurance I would recommend taking your child in to the ped (perhaps one that does not freak out so easily - honestly her over reaction and lack of trust would signal to me a deeper continuing issue. I need my Dr. to believe when I say my child "is doing better, just fine, we just wanted to get you opinion on that" ) and getting an official clean bill of health in writing.(government agencies are so stupid about this. in order to get dds birth certificate we had to get a note from a random ped telling them it was indeed a live baby. no crap. they couldn't just look at her and see "yep, she is alive" only a Dr.s word would do. I also had to get a random OBs letter stating I had given birth to a live baby and this was her. even though he had never met me and was not at my birth. but because he said it it muct be true. because Dr.s are special).

good luck


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## etc

Thanks for feedback


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## Purple*Lotus

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
could you make an appointment at their office?

also if you have insurance I would recommend taking your child in to the ped (perhaps one that does not freak out so easily - honestly her over reaction and lack of trust would signal to me a deeper continuing issue. I need my Dr. to believe when I say my child "is doing better, just fine, we just wanted to get you opinion on that" ) and getting an official clean bill of health in writing.(government agencies are so stupid about this. in order to get dds birth certificate we had to get a note from a random ped telling them it was indeed a live baby. no crap. they couldn't just look at her and see "yep, she is alive" only a Dr.s word would do. I also had to get a random OBs letter stating I had given birth to a live baby and this was her. even though he had never met me and was not at my birth. but because he said it it muct be true. because Dr.s are special).

good luck


I once had to get a doctor's note saying that I was overweight in order to get a regular desk at my University







When they told me I actually blurted out "Can't you just take a picture?" because it seemed so strange to me that they couldn't just *see* that I was heavy!









OP: I agree that I would probably just let them do a check to get it done with. I am sorry this is happening though, it sounds very stressful


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## SunshineJ

Wow I have to wonder if this is a relatively new pediatrician. With our old dr before we moved, if I'd called back and told them it was already healed and just a scratch, they wouldn't have thought a thing about it - but that's because they knew us pretty well and trusted our judgement. I'd probably find a new dr personally though after this. As for the CPS worker, let her see that the bite really was nothing, explain your DH overreacted, and let it drop. You've done nothing wrong but the more you stall on something like this the more it gives the appearance of guilt imo.


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## ollyoxenfree

I understand why you're unhappy, but I agree with others that even if the laws in your jurisdiction don't compel you to meet with them, you should. A meeting will probably clear things up quickly. Otherwise, the only way for them to investigate is to talk to your neighbours, school teachers, etc.

Without knowing exactly what your dh said to the doctor, I'm not going to label her as over-reacting. The law requires her to report suspected cases of abuse and neglect. I'd be surprised if she reports every dog bite case she gets or every untreated problem. If your dh really scared her (your words) and then the child is untreated, I agree with the others that she may feel she had no choice.


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## GoestoShow

.


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## One_Girl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 

also if you have insurance I would recommend taking your child in to the ped (perhaps one that does not freak out so easily - honestly her over reaction and lack of trust would signal to me a deeper continuing issue. I need my Dr. to believe when I say my child "is doing better, just fine, we just wanted to get you opinion on that" ) and getting an official clean bill of health in writing.(government agencies are so stupid about this.

good luck

Unfortunately good doctors are skeptical because abusive people are more likely to lie than they are to come out and say they are abusive and neglectful parents. Good doctors care more about the kid than they do about the parents feelings. I think this doctor was a good doctor who did her job. A parent called and made the dog bite seem like a big deal then the parents didn't bother to bring the child in, that seems neglectful and a pediatrician would be very careless to let that go. I wish all parents were good and honest so doctors wouldn't have to be suspicious, but they aren't.


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## KristyDi

I'm not sure the ped over-reacted. When you say the ped has never seen your son, do you mean never ever, or not for this issue? If you mean never-ever then I can see the reporting because she has no personal history on which to base her opinion of you and no personal knowledge of your son's overall health. So as a mandated reporter she'd have to go with the worst case scenario while hoping she's wrong.

I think the easiest thing at this point would be to let CPS see that your kid is fine whether you go to them or allow them to come to you. Personally. I'd go to them.


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## luv-my-boys

I agree with what the other posters have said. She is a mandatory notifier and in so depending on your states statutes regarding dog bites she may have had to report it.

IMO I would meet with the CPS but at their office. That way you are not labeled "uncooperative" I would also prior to the visit take my child to another pediatrician and have them write out a well child report regarding the bite. Its healed, not dangerous..blah blah blah. Make a copy to keep and take the other to your CPS visit. It may be beneficial to write out a letter a sort of statement of what occured that way you can have in your words what happened. In case the mtg goes down hill you can always say "this is my statement." "please refer to my statement for the answer" its a CYA move but sometimes in moments it helps to have it written out. Leave emotion out of the statement, plus it leaves no interpretation betwwen what you are saying and what the worker is writing down.


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## ShyDaisi

I would show them the child, but I likely wouldn't allow them in my home.


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## SquishyKitty

I'd meet with them in my home and show them the bite, and explain the situation. Since the Ped is new, she's doing what she is supposed to do in a situation like that. I'm sure if you had an established relationship, this wouldn't be an issue.


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## DaughterOfKali

Will you be getting a new pediatrician after you've dealt with cps?


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## lilyka

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristyDi* 
I'm not sure the ped over-reacted. When you say the ped has never seen your son, do you mean never ever, or not for this issue? If you mean never-ever then I can see the reporting because she has no personal history on which to base her opinion of you and no personal knowledge of your son's overall health. So as a mandated reporter she'd have to go with the worst case scenario while hoping she's wrong.

I think the easiest thing at this point would be to let CPS see that your kid is fine whether you go to them or allow them to come to you. Personally. I'd go to them.

Thats a good point. Our ped knows us very very well. So if I called in and said "ya know what, their dad was freaking out. it really just a scratch" he would know for certain that it really was just a scratch. he trusts my judgment and knows my kids are healthy and happy. but that is why we have taken the time to take our kids in for well checks, both so the Dr. will know us and in an emergancy our kids will know their Dr.

I can imagine how he handled a situation like this would vary depending on if he knew us or not.


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## fruitfulmomma

Quote:

Do they have that right, to demand a meeting one way or another?
Not without a court order and I would never allow a CPS worker into my home without a warrant. Personally I would be speaking to our lawyers at this point and having them handle all communications.

I do think you need to have your child assessed by a doctor who can write a note for CPS to let them know that his is okay.


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## hillymum

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fruitfulmomma* 
Not without a court order and I would never allow a CPS worker into my home without a warrant. Personally I would be speaking to our lawyers at this point and having them handle all communications.

I do think you need to have your child assessed by a doctor who can write a note for CPS to let them know that his is okay.

Isn't this a bit over the top?

Personally I would let the CPS worker come into my house and visit with my child. But then again I would know the CPS worker was there for my childs benefit and that I had nothing to hide.


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## fruitfulmomma

Quote:

Isn't this a bit over the top?
No, it isn't 'over the top' to protect my children and my home. The 4th amendment gives me this right.

Quote:

Personally I would let the CPS worker come into my house and visit with my child. But then again I would know the CPS worker was there for my childs benefit and that I had nothing to hide.
Personally, I prefer to take legal counsel from actual lawyers who have been working on cases involving CPS for over 20 years and know the ins and outs of the law and how best to protect my children. It doesn't really matter whether I have something to hide or not. If a police officer showed up demanding entrance to my home to see if I was growing pot or if their were illegal pictures on my computer or what not, they would be given the same treatment.


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## GuildJenn

I actually am going to go out on a limb here and say it sounds like you MAY have found a pediatrician who really cares, is thoughtful, and is ready to go the extra mile for her patients.

You said she "got mad" - now if she was rude to you or something, that would change my opinion. But seriously I think the person here who needs to apologize is your partner. If you call up a doctor and say you think something is serious, it's a GOOD doctor who listens to that.

For CPS, I'd meet with them. Why not? It's the same thing; they're doing their job to protect kids. If you don't want them in your home, just schedule a neutral spot.


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## Irishmommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fruitfulmomma* 
Not without a court order and I would never allow a CPS worker into my home without a warrant. Personally I would be speaking to our lawyers at this point and having them handle all communications.

I do think you need to have your child assessed by a doctor who can write a note for CPS to let them know that his is okay.

Do you have a family lawyer familiar with CPS on retainer? I would bet 99.9% of people don't.


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## PuppyFluffer

I NOW have a family lawyer who is quite familiar with CPS available to me should I need one after my experience this summer with my child.

I also will never walk into an unfamiliar medical setting without a digital voice recorder on the table and a copy of the laws which allow me to record any conversation which I am a party to.

Being forced to consent to known non-benign procedures to prove you have not abused your child - or temporarily lose custody - is not fun. It creates a defensive parent and one who learns the laws, their rights and becomes educated in how to protect them in order to protect their child and the integrity of their family.


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## PuppyFluffer

Also, in regards to dog bites, since dogs can carry rabies, any dog bite is a public health concern in terms of potential rabies transmission. As far as I know, when a bite becomes known to health care providers, they have to inform the health department so they can follow up on the vaccination status of the dog.

I don't think CPS falls into this equation generally.


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## khaoskat

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoestoShow* 
In some states, all dog bites are required to be reported by mandatory reporters, which include peds. So even if you had gone in, she may have been legally obligated to report the dog bite anyway. And in some cases, the dog would then be required to have a vet appointment to prove it's not dangerous/vicious according to state statute.


Yes, but those reports do not get made to Children's Protective Services. Rather they are made to the Animal Shelter/Humane Society for the County who regulates the animals (ie issues the dog licenses, etc).


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## khaoskat

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hillymum* 
Isn't this a bit over the top?

Personally I would let the CPS worker come into my house and visit with my child. But then again I would know the CPS worker was there for my childs benefit and that I had nothing to hide.

I have worked in the system for many years now. I can tell you, as an attorney who has experience with our local system, that it would all depend upon which caseworker was coming to my home. There are certain caseworkers who no matter what a parent does hates them from the word go and will look for anything and everything to open a full blown case and dig deeper into the lives to find even more dirt to use against the parents. But there are those caseworkers who honestly just want to come out and check to make sure the dog bite wasn't a horrible injury.

There is even currently one caseworker that if she ever showed up at my house I would have trespassed off the property and if she ever showed up again arrested for trespassing. That is how horrible she is. She is the type that once she dislikes you, there is no changing her mind and she will find something, anything, to prove you are an unfit parent and give the State Custody of your children and put them up for adoption.

But, to be on the safe side I would never let them into my own home without a warrant to do so. I would more than willingly meet them on my front porch with my doors and windows closed and curtains drawn, and let them see the child.


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## Adventuredad

I would meet with them in my home and be cooperative. Being uncooperative would IMHO not be a good thing. I think it's a good sign they want to come over and check things out. As soon as they meet you and see your home and child they will see that everything is ok.


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## paquerette

I would not let them into my home. You think mother in laws look at your cleanliness with a critical eye? I had a friend almost ordered into classes because, in her otherwise immaculate home, there was an empty candy wrapper and soda can on the computer desk in the den. This was classified as "food out of the kitchen/dining area" and that was grounds for being declared unfit living conditions.


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## velochic

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette* 
I would not let them into my home. You think mother in laws look at your cleanliness with a critical eye? I had a friend almost ordered into classes because, in her otherwise immaculate home, there was an empty candy wrapper and soda can on the computer desk in the den. This was classified as "food out of the kitchen/dining area" and that was grounds for being declared unfit living conditions.

Seriously? I'm sorry, but I just can't believe this. CPS is in my great-niece's life right now for reasons I won't go into and my opinion is that she lives in low-level squalor... however, CPS says that it's clean enough for them.


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## LROM

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette* 
I would not let them into my home. You think mother in laws look at your cleanliness with a critical eye? I had a friend almost ordered into classes because, in her otherwise immaculate home, there was an empty candy wrapper and soda can on the computer desk in the den. This was classified as "food out of the kitchen/dining area" and that was grounds for being declared unfit living conditions.

Ditto what velochic said, I highly highly doubt this was all CPS found. I can't think of a court in the country who would uphold intervention by CPS based on that alone.

And people, please remember... parents who do abuse or neglect their kids usually either lie about it or are in real denial about it when talking to family/friends/community. Rarely does a parent come right out and say "Yeah, CPS are involved because I wasn't supervising my kid properly and she drank drain-o" or "I left her home for 4 hours and she hit her head falling off a chair trying to get food". Even though the parent sincerely didn't mean for their child to be harmed, the number of times I've sat in mtgs and heard a parent explain a child's bad condition one way... then be reminded of facts of the situation that have already been proven true... then the parent "remembers" other issues... that is human nature. It's hard to admit when you've dropped the ball or been called out on something as serious as your children.

Paquerette, I'm not saying your friend definitely lied about the situation because of course I don't know, but I am saying that what your friend told you is unheard of as a reason for substantiating opening a child welfare case. Unheard of in any state, not just in some. And if CPS really got involved in your friend's life, I bet either that worker was quickly retrained or fired, OR your friend may not have told you the whole story.


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## Cheryl33

I hope this works out OK for you. For some reason this situation reminds me of this video I saw online made by a lawyer called "why you should never talk to the police" where he was explaining that even a totally innocent person can incriminate themselves by having a simple conversation with a police officer.

At the same time, I see the logic in just going on and seeing someone and showing them the scratch, and being done with it.

I absolutely would get a new pedi no matter what. I just could never have a trusting relationship with this person after something like this, no matter what. I would at least expect the doc to tell me they were going to report it.

again, I hope this works out ok for you!


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## Storm Bride

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LROM* 
Ditto what velochic said, I highly highly doubt this was all CPS found. I can't think of a court in the country who would uphold intervention by CPS based on that alone.

That's assuming the court heard the truth. I was actually there for a case where a family lost their children for a year, after one of the social workers involved lied in court. I know as much as it's possible for someone who doesn't actually live there to know about the case (I was peripherally involved, and spent a lot of time in their home, including numerous overnight visits). I don't think they were the greatest parents in the world, don't get me wrong - but they didn't deserve to lose their kids, and their kids didn't deserve to have their parents removed from their day to day lives for a year. And, none of them deserved to receive that treatment, solely because an arrogant social worker would rather lie to a judge than admit she was wrong.

I hear a lot about CPS hysteria and paranoia. But, there are reasons some of us are so freaked out about agencies who have the power to have our children taken from us, and who we know, for a fact, don't always act in the best interest of our kids.


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## mammal_mama

OP, do you have any update for us?

I think in this situation, I'd take my child to a (different) doctor and have the doctor contact them and let them know that my child is fine and in good health.

Maybe the pediatrician thought she had a good reason for hotlining the OP -- but I personally would never take my child into the presence of someone who had ever done that to us. But I'm just weird like that.









As to letting them into my home ... it would "probably" go fine. We were hotlined once and I did let the worker in. It went fine and no case was ever opened.

But if I had to do it over, I think it's better to arrange an appointment so you can videotape the proceedings, and have a witness. Even if the worker immediately returns with a warrant, that at least gives you a witness in the form of a police officer.

Even though my situation went fine, I've since learned that it's just a good idea to have a witness/videotape. Otherwise it's just the worker's word against yours and who's the judge more likely to believe? I mean, I'm all for assuming everyone's trustworthy -- but it seems like there's a whole lot hinging on a parent's belief that the caseworker's trustworthy --

And, uhm, hate to say it but when someone reports us, they're not exactly "trusting" us, now are they? I understand that the worker is just doing their job -- but, still, part of their job is to not be too quick to trust us -- right? Why should the suspected parent be any "more" trusting than those around her, yk?

But, anyhow, in the OP's case, it sounds like all they need to see is that the scratch has healed. And a doctor can tell them that.


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## TinkerBelle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
That's assuming the court heard the truth. I was actually there for a case where a family lost their children for a year, after one of the social workers involved lied in court. I know as much as it's possible for someone who doesn't actually live there to know about the case (I was peripherally involved, and spent a lot of time in their home, including numerous overnight visits). I don't think they were the greatest parents in the world, don't get me wrong - but they didn't deserve to lose their kids, and their kids didn't deserve to have their parents removed from their day to day lives for a year. And, none of them deserved to receive that treatment, solely because an arrogant social worker would rather lie to a judge than admit she was wrong.

I hear a lot about CPS hysteria and paranoia. But, there are reasons some of us are so freaked out about agencies who have the power to have our children taken from us, and who we know, for a fact, don't always act in the best interest of our kids.


Just curious. Was it ever proven that she lied? Because if it was, she should have been prosecuted and jailed.


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## velochic

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette* 
I would not let them into my home. You think mother in laws look at your cleanliness with a critical eye? I had a friend almost ordered into classes because, in her otherwise immaculate home, there was an empty candy wrapper and soda can on the computer desk in the den. This was classified as "food out of the kitchen/dining area" and that was grounds for being declared unfit living conditions.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
That's assuming the court heard the truth.

<snip>

I hear a lot about CPS hysteria and paranoia.

And it's stories like the above that causes the paranoia. When people spread rumors that people almost lost their children because of a candy wrapper and soda can in another room of the otherwise immaculate house *and NO other reason*, that's one of the reasons that cause paranoia. And paquerette didn't say that anyone lied in court.

Your story is different and it goes beyond CPS, it is a matter of someone committing perjury and needs to involve prosecution as the pp said. CPS as a whole is not to be blamed for one (or more) dishonest person. As a whole, I think they are just over-worked people who are trying their best to protect kids who are TRULY at risk.

I've had two people hit my van in the past year. They gave false insurance information to the police. If they had told the truth, that they were uninsured, they would have been arrested. They are free, no charges against them and we had to pay for the repairs (at least the deductible). They were dishonest, we paid the price... but I still believe in the car insurance system.


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## prothyraia

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
Your story is different and it goes beyond CPS, it is a matter of someone committing perjury and needs to involve prosecution as the pp said. CPS as a whole is not to be blamed for one (or more) dishonest person. As a whole, I think they are just over-worked people who are trying their best to protect kids who are TRULY at risk.

There's paranoia and then there's caution. I think it's fine to say that CPS is a system, made up of people- who, like all people, are usually caring but failable and yes, sometimes evil- that has the power to remove your children from your care. If I'm interacting with someone who has the authority to have my children taken away from me, the power differential is just so huge that mistrust is normal and (imo) healthy. I may be 99.9% sure that they have the best interests of my child and my family at heart, but that teeny tiny chance that they don't is enough that I want to be aware of my legal rights and minimize contact (and thus the opportunity for exaggeration, lying, etc.).


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## mammal_mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
There's paranoia and then there's caution. I think it's fine to say that CPS is a system, made up of people- who, like all people, are usually caring but failable and yes, sometimes evil- that has the power to remove your children from your care. If I'm interacting with someone who has the authority to have my children taken away from me, the power differential is just so huge that mistrust is normal and (imo) healthy. I may be 99.9% sure that they have the best interests of my child and my family at heart, but that teeny tiny chance that they don't is enough that I want to be aware of my legal rights and minimize contact (and thus the opportunity for exaggeration, lying, etc.).

Yes, this is the attitude I was trying to get across -- that, yeah, most people are trustworthy, but when your kids are at stake it's just a good idea to take precautions to protect your family.

As well as the slight possibility that a caseworker is evil -- there's also the possibility that they're just very mainstream in their views, to the point where seeing things like one huge family bed and no other beds, or a nursing 5yo, or knowing that you don't vax, MIGHT just push them down that slippery slope of thinking that they need to find some way to protect your kids from you ...

I even think that the relative who called me in, "probably" really felt that we were in need of outside interventin ... 'cause I'm just pretty much doing the opposite of what she did when she was raising her kids. And for some people, to feel good about what they're doing means they "have" to think anyone doing the opposite is wrong.

Then again, I do think the need to exert control over others, IS kind of heading down that slippery slope toward becoming an evil person, but that's a whole nuther thread, LOL ...


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## Smithie

"If I'm interacting with someone who has the authority to have my children taken away from me, the power differential is just so huge that mistrust is normal and (imo) healthy. I may be 99.9% sure that they have the best interests of my child and my family at heart, but that teeny tiny chance that they don't is enough that I want to be aware of my legal rights and minimize contact."

Ditto. In your shoes, OP, I'd get a note from a new doctor ASAP, stating that your child is fine, and then wait to see what happens. It may well be that when you refused to meet, they decided to drop the whole thing. It may be that they are planning to show up on your doorstep unannounced - in which case you'll have a handy note to give them! Or it may be that they'll call again, and you can set up an appointment to drop off the note at their office.

I'm opposed to letting anybody into my house without a warrant. CPS, law enforcement, whoever. I think it's bad for society in general to foster the attitude among cops and social workers that they are entitled to enter somebody's residence in order to investigate them without specific permission from the court. But you have to take it on a case-by-case basis - if a particular authority figure was clearly having a meltdown about talking with me on the porch instead of in the living room, I might let them in to forestall potentially major hassles in the future.


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## mammal_mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie* 
But you have to take it on a case-by-case basis - if a particular authority figure was clearly having a meltdown about talking with me on the porch instead of in the living room, I might let them in to forestall potentially major hassles in the future.

That's kind of how I see it, too.

In my own case, the caseworker wasn't having a meltdown on my porch. She had actually asked, when I answered the door, if I would rather talk with her on the porch. So we started out on the porch.

Then when she said that to complete her assessment, she needed to see the house and the girls, I just had a good feeling about her, so I brought her in.

It's hard to say exactly what I'd do if it came up again -- but the more I've learned, the more I've realized that bringing them in without a third person to witness is kinda chancy.


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## khaoskat

I can attest to the fact that CPS workers lie in court all the time, or better yet, they make material ommitions from their testimony.

Pros: Did you serve legal rights notice on the parents?
CPS: Yes, yesterday.

(The material ommision here is that she waited until after 6 pm the night before to deliver said legal rights notices.)

Here is another example:

CPS: Mom's attorney cancelled our home visit scheduled for 1/8. Mom's attorney never called to reschedule.
CPS: Dad did not get visitation at all that weekend. he showed up at Mom's at 5:45 and left at 6:10, he went to the police station, when he returned home Mom's car was gone.

Material ommissions here:
1) yes, mom's attorney cancelled the home visit after the attorney informed the CPS worker about the visitation issue, and the CPS worker started yelling at Mom's attorney. Mom's attorney gave CPS mom's side of what happened. CPS worker refused to believe it with the comment "Yea, I am sure Dad will tell a different story". Mom's attorney wanted to be present at the meeting, so s/he could protect his/her client and also know what the true issues in the case were.
2) CPS worker, even though this phone conversation happened on 1/4, demanded that the only available dates to make up said visit were on 1/12 or 1/13. CPS worker also demand that the meeting could only go forward if the Guardian Ad Litum were present, as she was a required participant.
3) CPS worker failed to mention that the "Fair Board" (their internal complaint place) was involved after the conversation on 1/4, because Mom's attorney wasn't going to allow his/her client or her/himself to be treated that way by the caseworker. The FB rep was attempting to work out a meeting between caseworker, attorney, supervisor, mom and FB rep to discuss the issues CPS had concerns about.
4) CPS worker told mom's attorney s/he could only discuss the case with the prosecutor and not with the CPS worker, and refused to discuss anything but visitation issues with Mom's attorney, when there were bigger issues of medical needs to be addressed.

Result - child removed traumatically from mom's custody without notice


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## mammal_mama




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## velochic

Quote:


Originally Posted by *khaoskat* 
I can attest to the fact that CPS workers lie in court all the time, or better yet, they make material ommitions from their testimony.

Pros: Did you serve legal rights notice on the parents?
CPS: Yes, yesterday.

(The material ommision here is that she waited until after 6 pm the night before to deliver said legal rights notices.)

Here is another example:

CPS: Mom's attorney cancelled our home visit scheduled for 1/8. Mom's attorney never called to reschedule.
CPS: Dad did not get visitation at all that weekend. he showed up at Mom's at 5:45 and left at 6:10, he went to the police station, when he returned home Mom's car was gone.

Material ommissions here:
1) yes, mom's attorney cancelled the home visit after the attorney informed the CPS worker about the visitation issue, and the CPS worker started yelling at Mom's attorney. Mom's attorney gave CPS mom's side of what happened. CPS worker refused to believe it with the comment "Yea, I am sure Dad will tell a different story". Mom's attorney wanted to be present at the meeting, so s/he could protect his/her client and also know what the true issues in the case were.
2) CPS worker, even though this phone conversation happened on 1/4, demanded that the only available dates to make up said visit were on 1/12 or 1/13. CPS worker also demand that the meeting could only go forward if the Guardian Ad Litum were present, as she was a required participant.
3) CPS worker failed to mention that the "Fair Board" (their internal complaint place) was involved after the conversation on 1/4, because Mom's attorney wasn't going to allow his/her client or her/himself to be treated that way by the caseworker. The FB rep was attempting to work out a meeting between caseworker, attorney, supervisor, mom and FB rep to discuss the issues CPS had concerns about.
4) CPS worker told mom's attorney s/he could only discuss the case with the prosecutor and not with the CPS worker, and refused to discuss anything but visitation issues with Mom's attorney, when there were bigger issues of medical needs to be addressed.

Result - child removed traumatically from mom's custody without notice

This is HUGELY different, though, than children being taken away because your immaculate house had a candy wrapper and a soda can in the living room!!


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## mammal_mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
This is HUGELY different, though, than children being taken away because your immaculate house had a candy wrapper and a soda can in the living room!!

But either way, it's hugely traumatic to the child and the parents.

Reasonable caution is not the same thing as paranioa.


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## Storm Bride

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TinkerBelle* 
Just curious. Was it ever proven that she lied? Because if it was, she should have been prosecuted and jailed.

No, it wasn't. She lied in court about having heard one of the kids announce that his testimony was lies. The parents didn't know what he'd actually said, so they couldn't counter her. (I was there when the son supposedly said that, and he said no such thing.) Why would she even be questioned? It was her word against that of a 'weird' family under investigation, and when the parents tried to get the judge to listen after talking to their son (the hearing was over at that point), he didn't, as it just looked as though they'd been getting their stories straight.


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## Storm Bride

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
And it's stories like the above that causes the paranoia. When people spread rumors that people almost lost their children because of a candy wrapper and soda can in another room of the otherwise immaculate house *and NO other reason*, that's one of the reasons that cause paranoia. And paquerette didn't say that anyone lied in court.

Your story is different and it goes beyond CPS, it is a matter of someone committing perjury and needs to involve prosecution as the pp said. CPS as a whole is not to be blamed for one (or more) dishonest person. As a whole, I think they are just over-worked people who are trying their best to protect kids who are TRULY at risk.

Who is going to prosecute? You get a family that's already under investigation, has a "weird" lifestyle (not AP/NFL - just "weird"), and a respected social worker. Who's going to be listened to? How do you prove a conversation happened the way the family and their friends (ie. me) say it did, when the social worker says she overhead otherwise?

Sure. It goes beyond CPS to the individual worker, but that individual worker has more power than the parent. When someone with the power to take my children away doesn't like me, that's scary. I realize there are people here who have the view that if one has nothing to hide, one has nothing to be afraid of. That is not my experience, and it would be pretty silly for me to judge any situation based on the philosophy of other people, when that philosophy goes counter to everything I've personally experienced.

Quote:

I've had two people hit my van in the past year. They gave false insurance information to the police. If they had told the truth, that they were uninsured, they would have been arrested. They are free, no charges against them and we had to pay for the repairs (at least the deductible). They were dishonest, we paid the price... but I still believe in the car insurance system.
I don't believe in the car insurance system, overall. I know they've made a big difference in certain situations, but I don't believe it's an effective system. It's different here - no competition. If I get hit/hit someone, they have the same insurance company I do...but I don't know if that's better or worse. In any case, you're talking about the two people who hit your car...not about any agent lying or faking something. That's not a reasonable analogy.

I don't expect anybody here to change their views on CPS, because someone (me) on an internet forum has had experiences that don't fit their view. I'm also not going to change my views, based on _every_ experience (almost all second-hand) that I've had with them, because people on an internet forum say, "oh, the people I work with are wonderful".


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## velochic

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I don't expect anybody here to change their views on CPS, because someone (me) on an internet forum has had experiences that don't fit their view. I'm also not going to change my views, based on _every_ experience (almost all second-hand) that I've had with them, because people on an internet forum say, "oh, the people I work with are wonderful".

My only views of CPS come from what I read here and what has happened in my niece's life over the past year. They have done everything in their power to help her keep her children. I'm not going to change my views based on second-hand experience, either. Because we are an integral part of their lives and I know FIRST-HAND her experience. She was certainly not investigated for "having a candy wrapper and soda can" in an "otherwise immaculate home". Can nobody else see the ridiculousness of this statement and the damage that these types of statements do?


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## mammal_mama

velochic, here in Kansas City where I live, what I hear about our Child Protective Services is pretty similar to what you are saying, in that they seem to do everything in their power to keep families together.

So, if we happened to get reported again and got another visit, I don't think there's more than a very-extremely *remote*, sliver-of-a possibility that our kids could get taken. I mean, there would be no reason, but I guess there would still be that remote possibility that the caseworker might not "click" with us or what-have-you.

However, it doesn't seem completely out-of-the-ballpark, to be concerned that if they got more calls on us, they might decide that they needed to open a case, do a full-on investigation, and stay in our lives for a while ... just because we're not perfect and we have our own little issues and they could probably find some reason to say that we could benefit from their involvment.

And, maybe some folks really would love someone dropping in and checking on them and helping them get more organized or whatever. But for me, even though I could sure stand to be more organized, it would just be so stressful to have to deal with people who have the power to take my kids away (even though, yeah, they prob'ly wouldn't want to) dropping in and intervening in our lives.

So I'd just rather not.

When I talk about taking precautions, I'm really more focused on protecting our privacy and reducing the likelihood of "interventions" -- not the unlikely scenario of someone snatching our kids 'cause of a candy wrapper on the floor.

To me, privacy and personal freedom are just such wonderful things, they are worth protecting. I realize some kids are being abused and neglected -- but our kids aren't, so we'd rather deal with our less-than-perfect home on our own, thankyouverymuch.


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## Storm Bride

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
My only views of CPS come from what I read here and what has happened in my niece's life over the past year. They have done everything in their power to help her keep her children. I'm not going to change my views based on second-hand experience, either. Because we are an integral part of their lives and I know FIRST-HAND her experience. She was certainly not investigated for "having a candy wrapper and soda can" in an "otherwise immaculate home". Can nobody else see the ridiculousness of this statement and the damage that these types of statements do?

Defining first-hand the way you are, I've been involved first hand in two separate CPS investigations. I was using "second hand", because I was not the parent (or child, for that matter) under investigation.

I've seen them completely destroy two families, with no improvement whatsoever for any of the seven children involved. In one case, I'd be willing to put money that the kids are worse off for the involvement. So, you're just saying the same thing I am. We've both had our own experiences, and it would be kind of stupid to ignore our own in favour of what other people have seen/experienced.

I don't see the ridiculousness, because I wasn't there, and I don't know that parent, and I don't know that social worker, and I don't know what went into the report. I can tell you that in the case of at least one social worker I've interacted with a few times (the one who lied in the above case - she was also a friend's worker when I was in high school), what happened to one's family and one's children depended on whether she liked you or not, and whether she approved of you or not, and what kind of home you kept or what kind of parent you were had nothing to do with it at all. If she didn't like someone, I could see her turning a candy wrapper and a soda can into squalor with the magic of words. (I know one woman who ended up under investigation, because her house was a diasaster area - which it was - but the report had no pictures attached at all. The decision to intervene was made based on what the worker _said_ he saw in the home. If he'd made it up, nobody could have proved otherwise.)


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## Storm Bride

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
And, maybe some folks really would love someone dropping in and checking on them and helping them get more organized or whatever. But for me, even though I could sure stand to be more organized, it would just be so stressful to have to deal with people who have the power to take my kids away (even though, yeah, they prob'ly wouldn't want to) dropping in and intervening in our lives.

This.


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## Thandiwe

Does anyone else see the "strangeness" that a doctor who it sounds like has never even seen this child made a medical consult over the phone? Every doctor I've ever known would not even touch a medical consult on a child they haven't seen. Heck, my doc who we have used for years and we love/know/trust is hesitant to do this. Either the doctor is acting somewhat negligently (although asking for a visit isn't really negligent, just caring, imho) or there was a random call into a docs office stating a small child was bitten by a dog, the family didn't want to go to the hospital, and then the visit was cancelled. As someone who has worked in the mental health field, I know that there is standard protocol to follow on emergency situations. I believe the doctor did her job. If there was nothing founded, I would just go to the meeting and lay things on the table. As a foster mom, watching facts being hidden from CPS only left the situation more questionable and suspicious.

Just my opinion. Kind of wondering about an update from OP, too.


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