# A woman I know spanks her children



## chickiepickie (Nov 6, 2004)

A woman I know has two children (3 and 18 months). She is a SUPER religious person who's father is a pastor at a church in town. I have known her since highschool and she has completely changed from her old party girl self. Anyway, what worries me is that her DD (3) can't look you in the eyes very easily--she is very shy. She has been receiving spankings (always with a spoon) since she was a tiny toddler. Her mom told me that sometimes spanks can last for 25 minutes if she doesn't sit still and also if she cries or yells she gets more. Now, she said, she has learned to sit very still and quiet when she is spanked. Now, the newest baby boy gets them, and she's working on him to be still and quiet when he is getting spanks. The mother tells me that her kids actually like it--that it's cleansing and that her children wont grow up confused about how to act. Once a "sin" has been done, a spanking is "justice served" and the children can go on and be "happy" when it's over. She even called her kids "sinful" (doesn't that mean full of sin?)--in which case they get a spanking. She absolutley does not listen to a word of advice from me. We have been in HUGE blowouts over this and my husband doesn't want to go near this family because he thinks he will go off on them. Needless to say, we don't spank our children. I sometimes ask her things like, "what do you do in the store when they are *bad*--do you save up the spanks?" But she has an answer for everything and tells me she just pinches them instead. Or if they get really bad, she takes them out to the car. When my DS was 3, just a stinky look from me would get him to behave--I never even had to raise my voice in the store. She also doesn't believe in sending her children to school...so she is homeschooling them (I'm pro-choice with homeschooling but this is scary). It is very worriesome to me but I don't know what to do??? I've tried talking and even sending her websites but she doesn't care. OH she also thinks that she is responsible for her children's behavior in the eyes of God and when "we are taken up to Him" she doesn't want to be cast away because of the sinful nature of her children--or something to that effect.
I can't believe she is going through life like this! Can anyone offer a bit of advise or encouragement since I'm really feeling terrible for those poor angels.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

That is horrible and, honestly, I'd be calling cps on them. I don't know what state you're in but isn't hitting with an object illegal in some states? I would not go near that family again. Not someone who I would want to associate with. I hope someone steps in and those children are saved from a childhood of abuse.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

"Her mom told me that sometimes spanks can last for 25 minutes if she doesn't sit still and also if she cries or yells she gets more. "

This is abuse, plain and simple. That is not the normal behavior of a parent who uses spanking as a discipline tool (which I don't condone, btw). You need to either confront her or get those kids some help.


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Yeah- I would be calling child protection as well. You can always call and just ask questions. Ask what they think. If I heard this story in my office I would be required to report it. I also wouldn't be her friend. I don't give up on people but this is so not ok, it would break my heart to even speak to her. Even if she was my client I wouldn't be able to work with someone that far from my values and beliefs. I am really tolerant of differences but this is wrong.


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## chickiepickie (Nov 6, 2004)

Under California law, "a parent has the right to reasonably discipline a child by physical punishment and may administer reasonable punishment without being liable for battery. In order to be considered disciplinary the punishment must:"

Be necessary (i.e. there it must be in response to a child's negative behavior.

Be reasonable, not excessive, in the judgment of a third party -- e.g. a Child Protective Services representative, or a law enforcement officer.

I got this from http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin2.htm


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

That is just excessive. I know moms who spank and it's usually one swat on the rear end with an open hand, and it's not done in the heat of anger. What your friend is doing sounds abusive both mentally and physically. What kind of a bond does this woman expect to have with her children when they are older?? Sure they may be obedient but wow, that is just so sad.

I once knew a woman on-line who started pinching her son's thighs when he was 6 mos. old, while saying NO calmly. Her theory was that he would become conditioned that no meant pain and to stop doing it. She bragged about how he never fought the carseat because she pinched him the first few times. She also advised one nursing mom in our group, whose baby was pulling her hair during nursing sessions, to pull the baby's hair back!!

This same woman was very into natural parenting and homebirth because it was the "gentle" choice. I just couldn't believe how she could believe one thing about birth but go and pinch her 6 month old!

Anyway, if you feel that the children are being abused to the point that an authority might feel the same way, I might alert them to that fact but she will probably figure out who called and you will lose your friendship over it. If she's being spanked for 25 mins. with a spoon surely there would be marks on her.

Darshani


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## CerridwenLorelei (Aug 28, 2002)

and I just can't figure out what to say beyond








25 minutes at a time with a spoon is beyond abuse ..if someone did that to their spouse they would be arrested for dv..

I am the last person to say call cps but this situation sounds like its warranted but with her dad being a pastor and approving this it may not get anywhere








I am not being ugly or singling a group out i have just seen this happen a few times where the abuse is justified under 'beliefs" which gives the true believers a harder time ..
ok I figured out something to say


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## SabrinaJL (Apr 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickiepickie*
Under California law, "a parent has the right to reasonably discipline a child by physical punishment and may administer reasonable punishment without being liable for battery. In order to be considered disciplinary the punishment must:"

I'm a daycare provider in CA. It's been a while since I've done the child abuse modules and had a class but I'm fairly certain that using objects is illegal under CA law.


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## saritabeth (Jun 25, 2004)

Okay....
First of all, I am a Christian and I find that behavior abhorant. I feel nauseated after reading that...especially that she is pulling God into it. That sounds beyond abusive to me. I would seriously consider acting upon the information you have, especially becuase they also sound so isolated. I do not understand how anyone can hit such small children with an object Especially for such a long time.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

oh my goodness







call CPS now!


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## umefey (Sep 10, 2004)

Those poor children









I don't even know what to say about this.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Spanking that goes on for 25 minutes goes well beyond reasonable.

I think you should consider someone steping in. I normally disagree with calling CPS, so maybe you can talk to the pastor at her church?
Something like this?


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## girlzmommy00 (May 15, 2003)

I'd call CPS, today. It sounds like you've done your best to speak to her & discuss this before just running off to report her. What you describe is awful. If she was doing those same things to another adult, she'd have been in jail months ago. I don't know what the laws in your state are, but I'd just call CPS & let them figure the legalities out.


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## Unoppressed MAMA Q (Jun 13, 2004)

i'm a survivor of inappropriate CPS investigation (NOT for anything you're discussing here, it was acutally for NFL).
and while i think hitting a child ever, for any reason, absolutely SUCKS, i just have to throw in my thoughts about calling CPS.
it seems like an easy solution. it MAY be the right thing to do in this situation.
but it may not. it is never as simple as 'call cps, and they'll come running to save the day!'
CPS may only make the kids lives worse. they could be removed just to be put in an equally or more abusive/neglectful home. or they could show up and just make life harder for the parents, thus making them more paranoid, angry people in general.
it is of course, possible that CPS could come in, help the parents get some counseling, get them to stop hitting...but that's not really what they are there for. they are there to remove children from the home, create red tape, cost families thousands in legal fees, destroy marriages for a paycheck.
i'm not trying to say that you shouldn't do it, but i had to chime in as a voice of reminder that CPS is a bureaucratic, $$$ driven institution. it is PROFOUNDLY corrupted. it's not like you're calling the mothering magazine tribes to come out and do intervention.
if it were as simple as 'call cps, and it will all be ok', that would be just great. but the situation is a very complicated one. there is no 'right' answer for what you should/should not do.
people from places like this would make good cps people, i think.
btw, i would not be willing to have contact with these people. i know that the world is full of them, but i just try to find good parents to hang with. if i can't go to the bathroom with you around my kids...yeah.
good luck with whatever decisions your heart and head bring you to. just please research a little more about CPS and decide if you really think that it would help the children, not just give you solace that you 'did something'.
chances are, what you need might be the good ol' serenity prayer. i hope i'm wrong, but it sounds like this is one of those things that is beyond your power.
peace.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Q.. is there anyone that she could call, that would actually be of help?


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## CerridwenLorelei (Aug 28, 2002)

I think very very lowly of them too because of stories like yours and two that i know personally but what other places could this mama look for help for these kids?

I know a lot of people would love to know other resources out there
If she just cuts contact who knows how worse it could get? and people talk about it takes a village?

Are there other places she could refer her too

foobar i don't think she could talk to the pastor since the op said her dad is one i bet he is hers ....


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## atomicmama (Aug 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickiepickie*
Under California law, "a parent has the right to reasonably discipline a child by physical punishment and may administer reasonable punishment without being liable for battery. In order to be considered disciplinary the punishment must:"

Be necessary (i.e. there it must be in response to a child's negative behavior.

Be reasonable, not excessive, in the judgment of a third party -- e.g. a Child Protective Services representative, or a law enforcement officer.

I got this from http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin2.htm


Her spanking behavior is not reasonable! Please get those kids some help!


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## Unoppressed MAMA Q (Jun 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
Q.. is there anyone that she could call, that would actually be of help?

not that i know of.








i do like someone's idea of 'call cps, talk to them, hear what they think, w/o reporting their names necessarily'.

when *I* was reported to cps, the chicken turd who called was NOT trying to help my child. he was trying to screw up *MY* life. he had never even seen me or my baby. CPS deals with these situations all the time.
he intentionally painted me in a very horrible, psychotic tone, telling cps i was mentally ill, would run away, etc(not true). cps takes these things seriously.
*maybe* if someone called saying,
'i am truly calling out of concern for children (BTW, at least half of all calls to CPS are labeled 'unsubstantiated', in my state it was approx 2/3 in 2003, so CPS should NOT take this idea for granted). i want to talk about what CPS is able to do to HELP THESE KIDS, NOT PUNISH THE PARENTS (i'm not saying these 'rents don't 'deserve' punishment, but that's not the point here)'.
maybe cps would be less nasty to the family if you painted them in a sympathetic light. 'they love their kids but really seem to be struggling...' instead of what *I* got (which turned out to be two armed sheriffs and a really NASTY caseworker)...
but i'm just throwng out stream of conciousness here. there are no easy answers. if these people were close family members, a private intervention could be arranged with a 'we're here so we don't have to call cps' kind of tone...maybe some variation of that is possible, but it does not sound like it.
but i don't know. i hope that OP can be of help. i hope nobody misunderstands my intent. i've just been there, and would seriously introspect HARD on calling cps on anyone, aside from actually seeing them beat a child violently (redundant?) and hysterically...i would not do it for systematically crappy parenting...but then maybe i would, KWIM?
and you always take the risk that they'll figure out who called on them. and maybe this woman doesn't fiercely love her children the way i love mine, but it takes a LOT of internal peace-filled intent, a strong spiritual community of loving people, to keep you from doing BAD things to the person who called CPS on you.
*I* was blessed to have those things, so some arrogant ass is still, as far as *I* am concerned, walking and talking with no profound impairment. i don't mean to sound like some mafia member, but if you have never had a total idiot of a stranger threaten to take your light of your life infant away from you, you would not understand that what i have described is what happens.
i'm not a child abuser and i have (possibly permanent) scars form dealing with CPS. it is a situation that has the potential to destroy a strong person, and this spanking mother does not soudn terribly strong. just be aware. if you, OP, are the only person in her life who tells her outright that you disapprove, and then you stop seeing her and CPS shows up on her doorstep...you get the idea. just think it through, please. you know this woman and i don't, but you don't want to risk your chance to do good by your own b/c of getting involved with someone else's life. how sad would it be if she called them on you for some fabricated cause and your children were abducted? if she is this spiteful to her own kids, who knows what pnasty potential she has to unleash on your family? and BTW, cps frequently takes kids away with NO evidence, no warrant, etc.
PSA: EVERYONE IN EVERY STATE SHOULD FAMILIARIZE THEMSELVES WITH CPS AND THEIR MANUAL SO YOU CAN BE PREPARED SHOULD THEY SHOW UP AT YOUR HOUSE. IT ONLY TAKES ONE ANGRY NEIGHBOR OR WELL INTENTIONED TEACHER WHO MISTAKES YOUR KIDS LEGITMATELY BRUISED EYE FOR ABUSE TO TEAR YOUR LIFE TO SHREDS. PLEASE GET INFORMED, NOW.
i don't know what it's like to deal with them if you ARE an abuser, but i bet it's not a good thing either.
disclaimer, i'm sure that there are caseworkers, maybe even here on these boards, who are NOT cps workers b/c they are stupid or vengeful or whatever. if you are acutally helping children, then you are, of course, doing good work.
but parents don't get to make requests, so you need to prepared for the worst caseworker scenario.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

That is so sad. I am a Christian & could never condone her behavior. To cite God as the reason she beats her kids for a half an hour... appalling. If I were her, I would be worried about Judgment Day when the Lord looks down at her & reminds her of his words... "Suffer the little children to come unto me, for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven." Or~ "Whatever you do to the least of these my brethren, do ye also to me."

I am so sad just thinking about those poor kids. I KNOW parents like that! (Cerridwen, NOT the woman I have told you about. She is a wonderful Christian mom!)


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## chickiepickie (Nov 6, 2004)

Unoppressed MAMA Q, I do not feel comfortable calling cps because when I was a child my mother always threatened us kids with "cps will come take you away if you don't clean your room.." rhetoric. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth and quite frankly--it scares the piss out of me. However, I do wish I had more of a support system with gals like you in person to be able to go to her house and intervene. It really is just out of my hands. I don't want to SCREW up her life, I just want her to stop the spankings and let the kids just be KIDS!! Or babies for that matter.... I seem to find myself in a lot of these situations where I just feel so completely helpless but want to help so badly. I just wish her entire family wasn't PRO SPANKIE then it would be easier.

What you said about the going to the bathroom thing: I was at her house once with my son (then aged 2) and she smacked his hand when he touched something....right in front of me. Now we don't see eachother very often for more than 10 mins or so aside from email and such. I can't be around that kind of behavior since I just become speechless over it.

Thanks for all of the kind responses........


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## Unoppressed MAMA Q (Jun 13, 2004)

you know, i think cps hurts a LOT of people. i think that this situation is so bad though, that just maybe it couldn't be made WORSE by cps.
does that make sense?
i don't believe that cps is likely to help these children, but they certainly aren't being helped where they are. if cps were to remove them, there is a possibility that they would be placed in a decent enough foster home (i was raised in one, i know that they exist)for awhile. and maybe even if they went back and the parents still hit, they kids could have had some time away from it to know that they don't deserve abuse. the seed planted COULD be powerful in a good way.
maybe a call to cps is the thing to do. i just don't know. but after my two long anti-cps threads, i do want to say that the devil you know is not necessarily better than the devil you don't know.
really, i have no way of predicting what will happen. i'm sure you will follow your heart, and that's waht matters. we can speculate our lives away...you know.
do update us, now i'm emotionally invested!


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

CPS is the last person you should call and only if the abuse is very visble.

CPS tends to come into the home, throw everyone and everything into upheaval and not actually help the family.

Back in May, they got called on us, we got a lawyer to protect us because I was pregnant and CPS was the last thing we wanted. We proved to them that DS was not at risk and even pointed out a lie that the intake worker wrote in his letter. When DP had his heart attack, I called up our SW for help - homemaker, more daycare, someone to help me with DS, anything - and was told he'd check into it. Of all the things I asked for, the only thing I got was daycare and only on the day before daycare had to be renewed and only because another child support agency (not CPS) talked to SW about that need.

In December, SW and I talked and there was nothing available so he "closed the file." UGH. So we carried on and dealt as best we could. In late Jan/ Early Feb we got a "noise warning" from the landlord. In other words - stop DS from screaming or we'd be evicted. Apparently, the landlord had been called on "many occasions" and stood outside to listen to DS scream because he couldn't get his way. So, on Sunday, a cop and a sw showed up. SW decided to make life hell but gave us a break and gave us 4 days to clean the place up. Which we were already doing because DD is now mobile.

On day 4, at 8:30pm, DP calls after hours and asks "where are you guys?" We luck out and the SW that does show is the one we had from previous - one who cosleeps and doesn't freak about no cribs. He got our complaints about what happened - the lack of support from their end, he knows DS's history, etc etc etc. And instead of giving us more hell, he is trying to see what else he can help us with.

Sure, its a good thing, but the stress of them being here is just too much. Sleeplessness, scared about who is knocking and more. The one who showed up last year scared the pea out of us and seeing that lie in black and white, not only did he throw us into panic, but we still freak any time they show.

Anyway, SW called today and spoke to DP just after I had left to make sure DD doesn't have the cold that DS has. DS was in full scale tantrum and SW asked us "is that what he's like?" and has now offered to find us and get us any help we need including possibly giving our landlords hell for not moving us into the 3 bedroom that had opened up and writing a letter to get us into subsidized housing. The CSA is offering help for both DS and DD (at least making sure she's normal) and to keep DS in daycare. Our family doc has agreed to have DS see a pediatrician.

But the stress level could kill DP because of his heart condition.

And all this could have been avoided if the neighbours or landlord had talked to us first. Nope. They had to call in CPS instead.

But, on the good side, this place is finally the way I have wanted it since we moved in!


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Also: a lot of foster homes aren't "decent." When I was growing up, we lived under a family that had foster children - kids 0 to 3. The foster mom was an abusive beyatch who shouldn't have been fostering anyone's kids. She wasn't in it for the children but for the money and I know of a lot of others that were like that. The ones that are in it for the children often get quickly burnt out and are few and far between.

Honestly, if govs paid low income families the same money for raising their own children that they'd pay the foster families instead, a lot less kids would be going into care. Family stress from just paying the bills often starts the entire cycle. Parents get stressed, the kids act out, the kids pay for acting out, parents get more stressed.....


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

I've been trying to figure out how to respond to the CPS issues. I am certain that there are many horror stories. But there are so many positive stories so I figure all I can do is add my two cents. Here in Minnesota, I have had really good experience with CPS. I call them pretty regularly- I am a mandated reporter as a therapist. But I actually don't hesitate to call because my calls have never gone poorly. I work with one woman right now who is being railroaded but CPS isn't as much to blame as the baby's father and grandparents who are using CPS to do their dirty work.

And it isn't just my clients. When my oldest was 9, my own sister called CPS on me. I was in a really rough spot. Nate was very out of control and I was begging for help and nothing seemed to be working. So, after I found out that I had been investigated for abuse (and I admit that I did lose it with him often, more than I can ever forgive myself for, but the allegation was false) the worker called me and said that clearly I was doing the best I could and my son's behavior was the issue, not my parenting. He said I could have the record closed but actually recommended me keeping it open as he worried that other situations could come up. I don't know why I even share that. I just want people to know that CPS is different in different areas.

I have also been a foster mom and I rocked!! But there are too many people doing foster care for the wrong reasons, and the good ones get burned out and move on. Again, in my work as a foster mom, I saw lots of babies returned to parents, who were given another chance and services to help them be successful.

Just another perspective.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

my main beef with CPS, no matter where you are, is that "no one guards the guardians" or "who watches the watchers?"

In other words, they are a power and an entity unto themselves, answerable only to themselves, and if they choose to rule your life and use your children like the carrot on a stick, they will. There is no organization that parents can turn to that they will listen to or obey. Not even the courts. In fact, they manipulate events and documents to make the truth fit their version.

Then, what really pisses me off about both American and Canadian CPS is that the advertise children for adoption on the web. Sometimes they include pictures of the kids too. Many of them are posted even before parental rights are terminated. I've seen a few of those where the date for parental termination of rights was given. That just makes me









To them, our children are not to be loved. They are a commodity to be used to fuel the system. A child that has been abused and put into foster care? Suddenly, the social worker, councellor, foster parent, attourneys, day care, respite care, hospital workers, psychologists, psychiatrists, and the list goes on, don't have just a little patient. They have a little cash cow paid for by local, state/provincial and federal governments. After all, a child who has been abused needs to be housed, councelled, reports have to filed and more. And what if the parents have to be supervised during visits? There's entire companies who hire people solely to supervise parents during those precious moments that parents get to have with their children - if they get any at all.

Sure, occasionally you get a "Maxine Gray" who actually cares about the kids and doesn't care about her job, but most of the time, you get a social worker who is trying to justify their job and the job of their superiors and will manipulate the system to their benefit, not yours.

That's why we got legal aide immediately so we could talk with our lawyer because of what happened on Sunday. A lawyer is the minimal protection we have as parents against CPS. If you have a good one and follow their directives, CPS is hooped. If you have one that toes the CPS philosophy (and I did) you could loose your children.

See, all of this is done civily. If it was done criminally then you as parents would have rights. But because abuse investigations are enacted as civil matters, any rights you could have vapourize even if you try to enact them. After all, only guilty people call a lawyer, right? You have nothing to hide from them, right?

You have your children to protect. But once they come into your lives, your children aren't yours. They belong to CPS. You are simply given the luxury of raising them - if the worker you get chooses to let you. What one worker might consider abusive, another will consider good parenting (ex: cosleeping - the emergency worker wanted to get me a crib *right then* but our SW cosleeps and is fine with us continuing to do so). It is nothing but the luck of the draw when it comes to SWs.

Thankfully, ours seems to understand that we are trying to be good parents. After all, we're working with child development to help DS. But, we could have gotten the Peon that works here. If that had happenned, I probably would have lost DD in a late term miscarriage or had her taken at birth. Instead, we got the decent one who is now trying to fix a fubar he had done and work with us to get us what we need to help us give DS a happy childhood.


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## WildChildWeaver (Feb 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickiepickie*
DD (3) can't look you in the eyes very easily

This is a *BIG* sign that there is a prolem. For a 3 year old to be like this is usually only due to abuse, physical is only part of it, mental is also a large factor.

I agree that CPS can do a lot of harm and I am just about the last person to say call them but I also agree with Unoppressed MAMA Q that in this case I don't think they can do much worse. If nothing else at least call them and ask their opinion about it before you give any details. _PLEASE_, I know your heart hurts as much as mine for these children or you wouldn't be asking for help.

And NO WAY would I ever go back to that woman's home or have much of anything to do with her.

Please do keep us posted.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WildChildWeaver*
This is a *BIG* sign that there is a prolem. For a 3 year old to be like this is usually only due to abuse, physical is only part of it, mental is also a large factor.

Isn't 3 the peak age for children - especially girls - to be shy? DS has been showing some of that. And one of the thing shy children do is hide behind their parents or refuse to look in your eyes. And isn't shyness a normal stage of life?

If you are going to call CPS, call the cops instead. At least that way if she is doing something that is against the law, she can be informed so.


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## bravofrenchie (Oct 15, 2004)

Quote:

What kind of a bond does this woman expect to have with her children when they are older??
I'll bet she doesn't give a rat fart about the "bond" she has with her babies.


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## urklemama (May 4, 2003)

You're in CA, I have gathered? DO NOT CALL CPS. Repeat, DO NOT CALL CPS. CA CPS is overloaded and does not have the resources to help someone like this. If the children are removed into foster care, they WILL BE abused. However, it is most likely if the woman is white and has a social network, CPS will show up and nothing will happen because there are no marks and the children won't say anything! So you will just have driven the abuse further underground and convinced the woman that the world is out to take her children away.

If you want to help her and her children, you are going to have to go to her church, and you are going to have to go in with the attitude that it is her right to physically discipline, otherwise they will not hear you. She is a victim too here. She's a victim of religious abuse, and she's only going to be able to be helped by people whom she considers to have authority in her religion. Go to her pastor and tell him what you've told us.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SabrinaJL*
I'm a daycare provider in CA. It's been a while since I've done the child abuse modules and had a class but I'm fairly certain that using objects is illegal under CA law.

So am I, and nope it's not.







It's defenitely frowned upon and discouraged, but NOT illegal.









Heather


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## nannymom (Jan 23, 2004)

I just want to say the CPS may not always be great but to advice someone not to call them b/c some people have had unfortunate experiences seems wrong. I also think being uncomfortable with it is not a good enough reason not to act. Think of how uncomforatble you'll be if one of those "spankings" that lasts 25 minutes becomes a matter of hospitilization or worse for her children.

I am very aware of the way CPS works. I have seen it wokr and I have seen it fail. My parents were foster parents for 9 years before we adopted. Not all foster homes are horriable and not all social workers are morons.

i am not judging anyones feelings I juts think it is important to see the whole picture.


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## Unoppressed MAMA Q (Jun 13, 2004)

"If you are going to call CPS, call the cops instead. At least that way if she is doing something that is against the law, she can be informed so."

yup.

"I am very aware of the way CPS works."
i might pose that if you think cps helps more than hurts, maybe you are NOT aware of the way they work. take your kids first, ask questions (and distort answers) later. i don't just base this on my own situation, but the situations i hear from all over.

"I just want to say the CPS may not always be great but to advice someone not to call them b/c some people have had unfortunate experiences seems wrong."
i also grew up in a decent foster home. but that in no way insures that an individual will get that. you are doing the same as you ask for not to be done, providing anecdotal reasoning to justify your preferred outcome.
i don't mean that rudely, and i'm not saying that you're totally incorrect. just wanted to point out a fallacy...


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## nannymom (Jan 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Unoppressed MAMA Q*
"If you are going to call CPS, call the cops instead. At least that way if she is doing something that is against the law, she can be informed so."

yup.

"I am very aware of the way CPS works."
i might pose that if you think cps helps more than hurts, maybe you are NOT aware of the way they work. take your kids first, ask questions (and distort answers) later. i don't just base this on my own situation, but the situations i hear from all over.

"I just want to say the CPS may not always be great but to advice someone not to call them b/c some people have had unfortunate experiences seems wrong."
i also grew up in a decent foster home. but that in no way insures that an individual will get that. you are doing the same as you ask for not to be done, providing anecdotal reasoning to justify your preferred outcome.
i don't mean that rudely, and i'm not saying that you're totally incorrect. just wanted to point out a fallacy...

Let me clarrify-there was no "fallacy" because I am not stateing facts but rather an opinion. I am entitled to feel that it is wrong to stand by while chidlren are being abused. furthermore if she calls the cops and the cops do their jobs they are going to be required to call cps.


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## Unoppressed MAMA Q (Jun 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nannymom*
Let me clarrify-there was no "fallacy" because I am not stateing facts but rather an opinion. I am entitled to feel that it is wrong to stand by while chidlren are being abused. furthermore if she calls the cops and the cops do their jobs they are going to be required to call cps.


of course, you are certainly entitled to think that. and opinions can still be based on fallacious reasoning. i think we all agree that it isn't cool to stand around while children are abused. just let me clarify too, i was not attempting to invalidate your thoughts. but i do believe that cps cause PRFOUNDLY more harm than good, and i'm sorry if i didn't state that in a respectful way.
eta, calling police is not a perfect answer either, for the reason you stated. but it sends a message that the caller is concerned with a violent criminal action, not just nitpicking their neighbor's lifestyle...i think that's the point, although i'm not sure if the person who first said that would agree.


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## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Just piggybacking a question here before I comment... Would not the cops immediately call CPS?


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## catnip (Mar 25, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickiepickie*
The mother tells me that her kids actually like it--that it's cleansing and that her children wont grow up confused about how to act. Once a "sin" has been done, a spanking is "justice served" and the children can go on and be "happy" when it's over.

You could tell her that this is what many consenting adults that practice ritual sadomaschism say is the case. (note I say consenting adults) I attended a psychology lecture on that subject once. See if that paints spanking in a nice bright red sinful light for her. Just thinking that if she can equate what she is doing to what "those perverts" do, maybe she won't be so eager to do it.

ETA: One of my former coworkers force feeds her 5 year old son a teaspoonful of hotsauce as punishment while blathering about "the fires of hell." People are sick.


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## chickiepickie (Nov 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *urklemama*
However, it is most likely if the woman is white and has a social network, CPS will show up and nothing will happen because there are no marks and the children won't say anything! So you will just have driven the abuse further underground and convinced the woman that the world is out to take her children away.


This is another reason that I don't think CPS is the answer. The kids don't know that what she is doing is wrong, she's white, and her dad is a pastor at a pretty influential church (to which she also belongs). Even her husband works on church grounds while she is SAHM. The whole situation is just a sweep under the rug. Especially since there are no marks (I'm sure) and that it's not illegal. And like another poster said, CA CPS is overworked as it is. I just don't think they will care--or that there is much more impending situations to take care of.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I don't envy your situation - I'm not sure what the right answer is. My best friend was recently caught up in a somewhat similar situation, she found a bunch of religious sites that argued against spanking in hopes that they would help nut the friend just got more angry and their friendship was almost destroyed over it.

My first instinct would be to no longer associate myself with this person, making the reason why very clear, and hope it would have an impact. But on the other hand if it doesn't then the children are still in danger.










Kitty


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

"If the children are removed into foster care, they WILL BE abused. "

Um, no. Besides, the children are being abused now. They get spanked for 25 minutes at a time. That is abuse. If the OP is going to be a real friend to this woman and her children, she'll do something to stop what's going on there.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *urklemama*

If you want to help her and her children, you are going to have to go to her church, and you are going to have to go in with the attitude that it is her right to physically discipline, otherwise they will not hear you. She is a victim too here. She's a victim of religious abuse, and she's only going to be able to be helped by people whom she considers to have authority in her religion. Go to her pastor and tell him what you've told us.

This sounds like some good advice, but advice that is tough to follow through with.

Calling CPS may not be such a great idea also because sometimes it taken several complaints for them to follow up. Maybe not in California, but here in Washington that's the case.

The story is all very "Carrie." Her keeping her kids out of school is particularly spooky.

Also that her reasoning is less about the good of her kids, and more about whether or not SHE gets into heaven. It makes me think that she may have been told she won't be saved in possibly a similarly abusive situation.

Making her kids stay still and quiet is particularly kinky and weird, and not part of any kind of "approved" or even "religiously recommended" spanking protocol. Maybe that's a place to start when talking to people at her church.

I'm a little concerned, though, since she is the pastor's daughter. What's the likelihood she was "raised" the same way? Her father may not be particularly supportive as talking to her may blow the roof on his abusive history.

What about her husband? Is that a place to start?

I do not envy you.


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## KermitMissesJim (Feb 12, 2004)

I have no practical experience here. But reading the OP and all replies, I just think a CPS report will drive her underground--with the support of her church.

Of course, I have no answer for you. Any information you present, any agency that gets involved--she will see it as the work of evil, and cling even more to her ideas of godly childrearing.

Just my thoughts.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Just wanted to throw in an idea about approaching her about counseling, too- if you ever infiltrate her religious fortress. For some reason I wonder if she doesn't have a lot of past abuses she's dealing with. For some reason the ideas that kids are sinful, they need to stay still and quiet, her concerns about not being saved, the party girl past- they all make me think about sexual abuse.

But I'm a boring overeducated liberal so I can't help but read sexual undertones into heavy religiousity when combined with ritual spanking.

totally OT- we don't allow mormons to practice polygamy, we don't allow muslims to practice female circumcision, I can't see why we allow religious freedom about spanking.

I hate to be cruel, and I don't even beleive in literal heaven and hell. But I kinda hope judgement does come to all those people who beat their children in g-d's name.


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## terrarose (Dec 2, 2004)

Those poor babies! I first read this thread a couple of hours ago and it's all I can think about. It is just apalling and to then "train" them NOT to cry or try to get away. Yep, just stuff the feelings, they can pay for their own therapy later! I cried! Please, please do SOMETHING to help them. I know you've tried, with the info you have given the mama but as that hasn't helped there has to be more action taken.

I don't know about CPS in CA, I do know about it intimately here(thank you, ex-h who thought that might be a way to get custody as I am a weird h-schooling, extended b-feeding, co-sleeping, vegetarian) Here, they come in(not considering the source at all) and they have one chance to "prove" something is going on. They look in your fridge and can be very agressive. For example, they asked 7yo dd if she liked h-schooling because it meant she got to stay home and play all day! They asked ds(3yo) if he liked his mommy! After the file was closed(which only happened because I immediately got a lawyer) I requested a copy of it and it was unnbeleivable the things that were noted as relevant. All in all, it was a very stressful 2 months.
That being said, I think I would still report it because there IS child abuse going on in this situation. Here, anyway, if there is abuse CPS has a program to help parents learn parenting skills and help you come up with different ideas to reduce stress in your life and will pay for counseling, if the parent is willing to work with them. They take the kids away as a LAST resort. I didn't get to access the program because after they talked to my lawyer, they suddenly decided my kids were fine and closed the file(I'm just joking about wanting to access the program but, even in the midst of my stress, I was glad that they have something like this set up for those who need it!)

Anyway, my thoughts are with you as you deal with this. All the best to you. Please keep us posted.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

We keep going around and around about CPS here. Come on! this is a state institution, it varies from state to state, everyone's experiences are going to be different. They are overworked, underfunded, and sometimes the social workers are dopey or racist, sometimes they are committed professionals. Like teachers, cops, doctors, nurses....

I think one direction to go with this is to contact a non-profit that is not the state that can help you think about this. Someone like these folks:

http://www.calparents.org/ourmission.shtml

They mainly exist to help parents who know that they need help, but they can help you think about what to do in this situation.


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## Vito's Mommy (Jan 19, 2005)

If it were me, I'd express my concerns. These children need someone in their corner. This mother needs to understand what she's doing to these babies! It's physical and mental abuse, plain and simple. There are so many resources at MDC that you could print out and give to her.


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

Why not go it her way and be hyper-religious in every way that you discuss things. I would start by printing out a study of the"rod scriptures" and introduce her to Gentle Christian Mothers. She no doubt is coming up with this stuff from other "christians" in her church and life and not from careful studying out of what God actually says about discipline. Why not force her to back up her beliefs with scripture and the real context and original meaning of them instead of riding on the coat tails of her pastor and friends.


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## urklemama (May 4, 2003)

If you report to anyone who is a mandated reporter, you have reported it to CPS. Cops, other organizations, any pastor who is not at her church.

Respectfully, everyone who isn't in CA really can't apply their experiences with CPS or foster care to the situation. All government support systems here are totally overloaded and underfunded and dealing with stuff that would be very difficult even if they had the staff and the $$. It's like a different country from the rest of the States. I'm sure you think your state is overwhelmed and underfunded, but your state isn't ALSO dealing with massive numbers of terrorized, non-English speaking undocumented workers from Latin America and Asia. Seriously, CPS workers are dealing with sex trafficking here. It's another world.

Foster care here is a total nightmare. I think the person who objected to my saying that the children will be abused in the foster care system was from Baltimore? I'm glad you've got it good in Baltimore. We don't. Of course it doesn't matter b/c the chances of children being removed from this situation are basically zilch.

It sounds to me like she's been reading the Pearls. Again, if I were in your shoes I'd go to her father. He is the only person she is going to listen to.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

CPS is a nightmare no matter where you live especially if you get a crusader as your social worker.

Mine, thankfully, seems to be a "Maxine Gray" type - specifically the episode where she goes into this one woman's house, pronounces it unfit for human habitation and takes the girl into foster care so that she can get an urgently needed gal bladder operation because the girl had been coughing up blood and mom's insurance wouldn't cover it unless it blew. (blood wasn't enough??????? another reason to like Canadian Medical, no matter how inadequate it is and I watch way too much tv.







) Mine is a cosleeper, isn't upset about how messy this place was, is upset that he couldn't provide services, and is looking into what we have kept going and what more can he get for us instead of lowering the boom.

If you get a crusader, one hell bent on "saving the poor little children," you are fubared if you even try to fight back. Even if your house is spotless, if you so much as talk back to the worker, you can say good bye to your kids.

I've seen the good ones get burnt out and the bad ones develop fire and brimstone.

And if you don't believe me about how evil CPS can be, look it up on the web and read horror stories.

I specifically asked my lawyer who I should call if I saw something that I thought should be called in back in August. She said to not call even though I really wanted to and to sit back and watch and see if this wasn't a one time thing or not.

I didn't call. I sat back. It was a one time thing and a family dispute between mother and tweenage son.

Hell, I should have called today because there was a child who had been left at the hospital to scream in the nurses' arms for hours. Even I took a turn trying to soothe her. I was told that the mother had left for a hour three hours after I had gotten there with DS. She didn't come back until after I had gotten Penalt from home. Then I found out that not only has she left her other children (3? 4?) at home with their father, they had been helivaced in and she had been there for almost a week and it was one of her few times away from her child so she could get some food in her and a change of clothes. So, instead of jumping the gun, I found out some more about the situation.

I'm thinking of offering her our couch, w&d and shower/bath if she's still there tomorrow.


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## chickiepickie (Nov 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cutie Patootie*
Why not go it her way and be hyper-religious in every way that you discuss things. I would start by printing out a study of the"rod scriptures" and introduce her to Gentle Christian Mothers.

I just emailed that link to her so I'll get back to ya when/if she responds...thank you for that. She wont listen to the psychologists perspective because "they want to get paid." That is a quote from her.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Your friend could have been a member of my old church, the one that kicked out our family over Ezzo and parenting issues.

I was in the nursing room and one of the Pastor's Wives was complaining to another Pastor's Wife about the day she was having with her two year old daughter.

She said she must have spanked her 40 times that day and the other one was relating how she spanked her two year old that many times as well.
I was shocked and I said something like, "you literally spanked your child 40X yesterday?" and she said, "Don't you?" and I said "If I spanked my child that many times I would obviously been doing something wrong, doing anything 40 times without positive results would be considered a failure and *I'd* be looking for more effective alternatives!!".

I was told that neighbors of the church called cps complaining about the screams eminating from that church on Sunday mornings. I had personally witnessed many numerous whippings in the bathroom. In fact, the bathroom was the venue of choice I remember one pastor having a collection of rods on the back of the toilet no small wonder if any of their kids is anal retentive.

Anyway, you may not get too far talking to the leadership of the church because there are pervert pastors who would tell that mother that she was doing the correct thing by her children.

It irritates me to no end when people talk about hitting children being cleansing. First, Jesus' work on the cross was sufficient for forgiveness of sin and second, we *want* our children to experience healthy guilt when they have done something wrong, to have any badness beaten out of them denies the power of the Gospel and removes a powerful motivator for the child.

Debra Baker


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## chickiepickie (Nov 6, 2004)

OMG she just wrote back after I sent those websites to her. she said, "hooray for Christian psychology..." and that was it.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

I am a Christian *mother* not a physcologist. I will dialogue with her if she allows it.

I do not get paid nor do I benefit in any way (but to feel relieved that her children are not being abused.)

I am a mother of eight children and feel as though I qualify to be a Titus 2 type of woman.

PM me if she consents.

Debra Baker


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## chickiepickie (Nov 6, 2004)

here is the email she just sent me...it explains a lot.

Though you can find anything and everything on God's green earth to support both issues, I have one difference. I have been in, and seen many many examples of both families (most families in our church don't train and spank either - in fact, I can't think of another that does), and it is very obvious which children lack control and character, and which don't. I have no doubt that you can find more supporting the no spanking way of training children VS spanking. It is the most popular and worldly way, and most mainstream churches adapt to it. Yet again, hooray for "Christian" psychology.

However, if you are really seeking to find out more about this subject, I will give you a website that is little known, but extremely thorough, and you can peruse it's contents. Also, if you would like, I will give you a copy of To Train Up a Child, which is written by Michael and Debi Pearl, the founders of No Greater Joy Ministries. It is not an easy book to read, as I discovered that I first needed to train my own corrupted and spoiled brain if I wanted my children to be anything better than what I grew up with. Anyway, the book articulates how we wanted to raise our children, but couldn't put it into words. Here's the site if you're interested: http://nogreaterjoy.org/

Anyway, to make a short email long, I just wanted to thank you for the sites you gave me to read, and I am glad that you are really interested in this subject, as it is one of the most important and difficult parents will ever come across.









I went to no greater joy and read a few, it seems they condone the breaking of a child's will over spankings.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Those books and webpage have been discussed at length here at Mothering. I'll find and edit this post to link to the discussions.

Michael and Debbi Pearl are extreme and their teaching blatently defy basic Scripture.

For example, The Pearls advocate setting a toddler up to disobey by calling him repeatedly and sending them away saing, "Oh, it was nothing, go back and play" when the child eventually ignores the parent the parent takes the opportunity to whip the toddler. This violates the Biblical injunction against provoking children.

They also advocate throwing a timid child into a pond and allow the child to nearly drown to teach them to fear water.

They advocate parents hose down a child who had a potty accident in cold weather outside.

Michael Pearl advocates a child molester's wife to take the molester back into her home and bed after his prison sentence because G-d hates divorice and the wife should be forgiving (!!!!)

The Pearls advocate couples not get a state marriage license because some communities allow gay marriage.

The list goes on and on.

If she is practicing Pearlesque parenting I would strongly intervene in some way because those children are being horribly abused. If she was in my circle I'd report her and offer to take the children into my own home if necessary. These children are being scarred.

If her church doesn't follow her belief system I would strongly consider going to her Pastor because someone needs to advocate for the children.

Sadly shaking my head.

Debra Baker

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...hipping+babies

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...tian+Crusaders

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=249018

From GCM

http://www.gentlemothering.com/forum...ic.php?t=43494

http://www.gentlemothering.com/forum...ic.php?t=42197


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Chiming in a bit late here, but is there anyway you can just tell her that you feel that her spanking is crossing a line and as an adult you feel obligated to take a stand on behalf of her kids. Which means you are thinking of calling CPS. Maybe with someone like her you just need to be blunt. Yes, it may drive her underground, however there is a chance that she may heed your words and consider other more appropriate ways to deal with her kids. She sounds like someone who won't get subtle messages.

As for calling CPS, I am not there but I know having lived in a couple of different states and as a former social worker that CPS is often a pretty grueling experience that results more in families being split up than parents getting the parenting help that they need. Yet that does not necessarily have to be a bad thing for the kids. I guess that if I were wanting to help this family, CPS would be the place of last resort rather than the first.

Though in the end, you are there and know better than any of us how bad the situation is and if it merits CPS and possible removal from the home.


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## urklemama (May 4, 2003)

Thought it sounded like the Pearls.

Dude, Michael Pearl has a lot to answer for. The Pearls themselves say that if you're spanking as much as she is you're doing it wrong, but I don't know what the hell they thought would happen with unsupported women home all day alone with toddlers and no parenting advice other than "beat the devil out of them!"

I think what you want to get across to her, and to the men she considers to be in authority over her, is that she's being overzealous, NOT that she needs to stop spanking, b/c that ain't gonna happen. Harm reduction is your goal.

Also, I know this is really difficult to accept, but she does think she's doing the right thing. If you try to convince her she's not she's going to think you are SATANSATANSATAN.


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## chickiepickie (Nov 6, 2004)

I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF THESE PEOPLE! I am wondering how their five children turned out?


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

ugh. if that's how the kids are being raised, call someone in - preferably the cops - especially when you hear her go at the kids again!


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## catnip (Mar 25, 2002)

Just wanting to chime in in defense of California foster homes, I know at least half a dozen families that are wonderful people and really care about the kids they foster. I had the unfortunate experience of being a mandatory reporter and watching 3 children being removed from an abusive home. They were placed with a terrific, loving single woman who later adopted them.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

from the other side of foster parents...

My mother and father, plus numerous close friends, are foster parents. My parents are wondrerful. They moved to the country, built a 7 bedroom house on a lot of land with a lake just for fostering and possibly adopting (they have 5 grown kids).

Two of their previous foster kids have been close family friends for 4 years, and they come visit my parents at least 2 weekends every month. My mom took those 2 and 3 more to Florida and Sea World in Texas, to Canada and a few other trips. This is not unusual for their kids that come and stay.

So not everyone is so bad. And this is not just them, also their friends, many of whom are foster parents and wonderful ones.

But I would call the PO as someone mentioned. Or call first and talk before reporting.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Supposidely their five children have turned out "well" but inquiring minds wonder what "well" looks like.

My theory is they are passive, quiet, submissive types that don't give anyone trouble.

They also don't have one creative independent thought in their heads (especially the girls)

On a related note, if you go into the nogreaterjoy site you can read Debbi Pearl brag about whipping her baby granddaughter.

This woman doesn't even know the rule about grandmoms spoiling their grandbabies!!!

DB


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## catnip (Mar 25, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DebraBaker*
Supposidely their five children have turned out "well" but inquiring minds wonder what "well" looks like.
DB

Then again, I know a couple of AP'd adults that turned out rotten, so flukes can happen.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I got spanked quite often as a child and despite that I think most would say I turned out "well" - sometimes the effect such an upbringing has isn't outwardly apparent. KWIM?

I don't see how someone that grew up in the Pearl's household and now has children being abused by their grandparents can't have some issues, obvious or not.

Also wanted to add that the friend I was talking about previously that sent links to her friend and got in an argument over this issue - the fight started over disagreement about the Pearl book. My friend was telling her friend how sick she thought the book was and was shocked to find out that her friend believed in and was following the advice of that book. It's a shame that someone can't stop the sales of that thing.


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## chickiepickie (Nov 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
It's a shame that someone can't stop the sales of that thing.

The beauty of free speech is that we can buy it, read it and then trash the heck out of it on MDC....MDC ROCKS!!! lol


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## SharonAnne (Jul 12, 2004)

My mom broke many a spoon over my rear end. She also whipped me with my father's belt, and broke a plastic spoon on my brother's back because he woudn't stand still.

I was told to "move my hands" as I tried to cover my poor little bum "Or they'd get hit too".

My mother left me at the house with one of my friends while she ran to the corner store once when I was about eight or so. She told me don't open the door for anyone.

When the bell rang, I peeked out the window to see who it was, opened the big heavy front door, and locked the storm door, and talked to the guy (who I didn't know) through the storm door. I didn't open the door, as far as I was concerned. When mom got home (she was literally gone five minutes), she found the storm door locked and knew that I had opened the other door. She didn't even give me a second to explain what I had done (and I was so proud of myself). Instead, she grabbed my head and smacked it back and forth between her two hands, in front of my best friend.

Not only did it hurt, I was also fairly humiliated.

So, I know what these kids are going through.

Please get them out of there if you have ANY power to do so.


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## urklemama (May 4, 2003)

Please, please, please stop bringing up individual cases in the foster care system. The plural of anecdotes is not data. My baby is pulling apart the room right now so I can't pull up the stats, but go look for the abuse, murder and rape rates IN FOSTER CARE. Foster care is MORE dangerous than leaving the children where they are, not b/c of the foster parents but b/c of the other children.


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## CerridwenLorelei (Aug 28, 2002)

chickie someone once said mr pearl admitted waiting to write the book until his kids were grown because he knew cps would get involved

one daughter sent information for her new hsing stuff to our secular group ...ugh


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

I think individual cases are just as important as generic stats that may be misleading based on context. There is no all encompassing answer or stat re: foster care. Not every placement involves a more dangerous or hurtful situation than staying at home. This is something that needs to be looked at on an individual basis and those involved are kids.

And I am inclined to see it from the perspective of a PP who knows the humiliation and pain of parental abuse as well. It should be in the best interest of the child. And who is to say what is best for each child?

The real problem here seems to be a major need to overhaul the foster and CPS system. Or really the abandonment of the current (apparently) not fully working system and replace it with something else.

Is there a better way someone knows about? To deal with abuse, neglect and the like in the home?


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## catnip (Mar 25, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *urklemama*
Please, please, please stop bringing up individual cases in the foster care system. The plural of anecdotes is not data. My baby is pulling apart the room right now so I can't pull up the stats, but go look for the abuse, murder and rape rates IN FOSTER CARE. Foster care is MORE dangerous than leaving the children where they are, not b/c of the foster parents but b/c of the other children.

I did do some research, and while I found a fair number of anecdotal cases of abuse, I could find no hard statistics. I'd be interested in seeing them. While there are, I'm sure, many children abused in the foster care system, saying that any child placed in that system will be abused is a gross generalization and as such, even one loving, safe foster care home refutes the totality of that statement.

I am clergy, and as such, am a mandatory reporter. The one situation have I dealt with involved long term sexual abuse. The oldest child was afraid to tell anyone that she was being abused because she had been told that if she did they would call CPS and she would be beaten and killed. And she was not told this by her abuser, but by other adults she trusted. She is the one I mentioned as having been adopted in a previous post.

I am not saying CPS and the system do not fail to protect children, but I am saying that when the system runs smoothly and protects the children and places them well, then we don't hear about it. Would anyone say "Yeah, well, I abused my kids, they were taken away from me and are better off?" No. If that's the case, the parent would either keep their mouth shut, or lie. If someone is wrongfully accused of abuse, are they going to tell the world? Oh yeah, you bet. And they should. So when things go wrong, it's news. Should you call CPS if you remotely suspect abuse? Probably not. But to say that there is no circumstance where a CPS call might be the right thing to do is a shortsighted generalization. When there is clear evidence of danger or damage, it can be the only option we have.


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## chickiepickie (Nov 6, 2004)

Here is the most recent thing she sent me in email...links to the Pearls websites:

uke

http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/index.ph...nse&tt_news=14
http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/index.ph...nse&tt_news=15

sickos


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## chickiepickie (Nov 6, 2004)

this is from the Pearls!

"When are they too old?

"It is hard to say. It differs with each child and each family. Some families spank their kids until they are eighteen. Others stop by the time they go through puberty. Obviously you should stop when it ceases to be effective, or when they won't cooperate. When it is embarrassing to you as well as to them, it is time to resort to reasoning and appeal. If you have a good relationship with your children and they recognize their need to be chastened or punished, then they are not too old. But if you have lost fellowship with your children and they are past puberty, they are probably too old. "


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## chickiepickie (Nov 6, 2004)

I'm becoming obsessed with the SICKNESS of it all. Is that creepy or what???


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

NOT to laugh at the serious problems described here, but...

I wish I were a hacker, *Chickiepickie*. I'd change just a few words in the Pearls diatribe, from

Quote:

"When are they too old?

"It is hard to say. It differs with each child and each family. Some families spank their kids until they are eighteen. Others stop by the time they go through puberty. Obviously you should stop when it ceases to be effective, or when they won't cooperate. When it is embarrassing to you as well as to them, it is time to resort to reasoning and appeal. If you have a good relationship with your children and they recognize their need to be chastened or punished, then they are not too old. But if you have lost fellowship with your children and they are past puberty, they are probably too old. "
to

Quote:

"When are they too old?

"It is hard to say. Some families say 'conception.' Others say later because conception involved whip-like movements of a sperm's tail. Obviously you should stop when it ceases to be effective, so definitely by birth. Whipping is embarrassing to you as well as to them, so it is time to resort to reasoning and appeal. If you have a good relationship with your children, then it is partly because you have never whipped and so have earned your children's trust. But if you have lost fellowship with your children, then you should examine your means of disciplining your children; it may be too harsh. You are too old to abuse another human. "
Think anyone will notice?


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## saritabeth (Jun 25, 2004)

I am just sick, sick ,sick, sick.

I have never even heard of the pearls....what the he**??

I can not imagine swatting my FIVE MONTH OLD because she was squirming in her car seat.

These people are going to have a lot to answer for when they reach judgement day. Not only are they going to answer for what they have done to their own children, but they are going to have to answer for all the struggling parents out there who they have correpted and misled with their HORRID misrepresentation of God and his word.

What happend to 'what ever you have done to the least of these you have done unto me' ??


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

How awful that a parent might have to resort to "reasoning"...


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## AutumnMama (Jan 2, 2004)

As a christian Mama that just makes me sick.
It's an absolute disgrace what people try to justify twisting scripture like that!!!
Those poor babies, no way would Jesus want them treated like that


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## chickiepickie (Nov 6, 2004)

On the lighter side of things, Seasons, You are Freaking Hilarious. I want to email that to her.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

seasons


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## Robertosmama (Mar 1, 2005)

Spanking is one thing, But spanking with a item is a whole different story and it's abuse. Call cps.


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## amydidit (Jan 21, 2005)

This thread makes me so sad... really puts the situation I'm dealing with with a friend of mine seem insignificant.

I don't normally believe in calling CPS... usually, from what I've seen, it does no good... heck, my DD first pediatrician called CPS on me because I walked out of an appointment because all she was doing was yelling at me for trying to BF my daughter... I even told her as I was leaving that I was going to go to another pediatrician! Didn't matter... I had to deal with CPS for a long time after that... it was a nightmare! Thankfully we got through it relatively unscathed compared to other families.

In this case however I think I must suggest calling them. I understand they are very busy and behind, but this is too serious to ignore. Obviously trying to talk to her and reason with her isn't working. Maybe you need to spank her into submission like she's doing with her children?

No, CPS doesn't always work... I've seen it not work with my sister and her DC... she is a drug addict, dealer, mentally and physically abusive, etc... she's been in and out of psych hospitals and jail... her DC suffered through all this... more than once my mom called CPS on her and the children were taken out several times... each time they were given to my mom for temporary custody... they did try to give my sister help... counseling, parenting classes, etc... and she'd appear to be trying to work with them... but after they'd give her kids back (usually within only a month), she'd revert right back to her normal behavior. The CPS worker talked to mom at length about everything and explained that she wanted to do more, but her hands were tied by rules and regulations. But during their times away the children learned they didn't HAVE to be beaten and afraid all the time. We may not have been able to save them 100% from what they were in, but at least they knew that they weren't the problem, SHE was... and they knew there was an out. They've now grown up to be pretty decent young adults (18 &21)... I don't worry that they'll continue the cycle of violence.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that even though CPS is NOT a great choice, and there may be little they can do, it might help, at least a little... and right now it sounds to me like those kids need all the help they can get.


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