# Leaving kids in car unattended for just a minute...how bad is it?



## TranscendentalMom (Jun 28, 2002)

I know I'm going to get some disagreement on this subject so I'm asking upfront to understand my frame of reference...I live in a small fairly rural town with a low crime rate. Most people don't lock their doors or their cars. Recently I was just having a discussion with someone that they don't even know where their house keys are as they have never locked their house.

I know things can happen anywhere but after many years of living in a town like this, you start to get used to the innocence.

Many parents I know in town (including me) have left kids in the car while running into a store for just a minute. The range of safety seems to vary a bit. Personally, I have only done it in situations such as - babe's asleep in the car, its a cool day, lock the doors w/windows up, run into dry cleaners - can see car the whole time - pay and leave. Others I know have been more lax, others say they would never do it. Someone I know said she only does it if her dog is in the trunk as he would bark if anyone came near the car.

Several women I know have had people come up to them and threaten to call DSS on them, or in one case the police. I can understand why in certain situations, in others it seems surprising given the circumstances. I guess I don't think its a black and white issue but it seems to be treated as such. I would never leave my kid alone in a car in a more urban area, nor in a situation where I couldn't see the car, or would be gone more than 2 minutes. But do people really unbuckle kids and bring them back in the house every time they forget something? I find that so hard to believe.

Anyway, just curious your thoughts on the subject.


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

:


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Oh boy. We have gone round and round on this one here on good ole MDC.

Personally, I think it's fine, if you live in a safe area, lock the doors/windows and/or are within eyesight, and are just gone a minute.

Ymmv. Lots of people's on this site do.


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## geek_the_girl (Apr 12, 2006)




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## pianojazzgirl (Apr 6, 2006)

I can see myself doing the same thing if I lived in a town like the OP's. However I live in the heart of a big city and I would never feel comfortable leaving her in the car here, even if I could see the car the whole time.


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## TranscendentalMom (Jun 28, 2002)

what does ymmv stand for? Thanks.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Your mileage may vary.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Other than paying at the gas station, I tend to not leave the kids in the car when we are away from the house. This is more due to the fact that I live in a suburb of DC, and you never know what can happen. But I am actually more afraid of the car overheating than them getting snatched.

However, there have been multiple time when the boys are asleep in the car when we get home so I will leave them in their carseats, windows rolled down, back door open (which leads to the carport) until they wake up. I only do it when the temperature is below 70, even though the carport is shaded.

(ymmv stands for your mileage may vary).

Siobhan


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## Apwannabe (Feb 1, 2006)

I have three small kids. 4, 2, and 7 months.I also have an 8 yr old but most of the time he is at school. I leave them in the car when I go into pay for gas or if I am running into the little corner store to get milk or something. If I can see the car I don't have a problem with it or even see what the problem is. I won't leave them if I can't see the car, no matter how quick I will be. I figure that my kids have more of a chance getting hit by a car in the parking lot of the gas station then in anything happening while I run into pay.


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## AnneNic (Sep 13, 2005)

I have two children (almost 6 years old and almost 9 months old). I would not leave either of them in a car while I was away from it.

Andrea


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Yep, this one has been around a few times already. I live in a suburb of a large city. I leave the kids in the car to return library books or videos to an outside return slot. I always use pay-at-the-pump, so that's not an issue. I will also leave kids in the car if its in the driveway and I need to run back to the house for a forgotten something. Or to take one sleeping kid to their bed before coming back and getting the other one. I wouldn't leave them in the car if I was actually entering a building.

Given the actual statistics on children being kidnapped kids kidnapped by strangers in the entire US), that's not my concern. I'm more worried about an overheated car or one of the kids doing something like pretending to drive and accidently putting the car out of park or something.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

I've left them in the car for quick runs into the corner store or whatnot as long as my 11yo or 14yo are with them. I've never left the younger 3 alone though except when I forgot something in the house and then I've left them in the car while I ran in to grab whatever I'd forgotten.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Oh yeah, this has been done already








I see nothing wrong if you can see the car at all times. I also only do it when a dog is in the truck (you didn't mean trunk right?? cause that's bad!!)
I will say that everyday I leave dd in the truck in the driveway while I load my daycare dogs. We are also in an area where nobody locks their houses or vehicles, I have no idea where our house keys are.


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## The Lucky One (Oct 31, 2002)

Well, at gas stations I pay at the pump, so that isn't an issue.

The only place that I leave my kids in the car is at the dry cleaners and only if I am the only customer. The whole front of the building is glass and so I can see if I'll be the only one in there. If I am, I turn off the car and take the keys (but I don't lock it







) and go in and get my stuff, all the while looking out the window. On one level, I feel slightly uncomfortable doing it, but when I've really taken the time to examine my feeling, I think it's because of the climate of fear that abounds. When I think of it logically, really, what could happen? Neither kid can unbuckle themselves and I'm inside for less than 3 minutes, usually less than 2. I live in small-ish safe town and I'm comfortable with what I do in this particular instance. Of course, if I really felt they were in danger, I would take them in with me, even if it meant more inconvenience, but I just don't think they are in any danger.


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

I'm so guilty of this. I've left them in my apartment complex parking lot while I run into my apartment for something, literally for less than 5 minutes, always. I'll leave them while I run in to pay for gas. I'll leave the baby in the car while I drop the older two off at mom and dad's. It's never for long but I sometimes feel a little guilty for it. Sometimes the pain in the ass factor outweighs all.


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## hellyaellen (Nov 8, 2005)

i do this. in the driveway at my house or my moms while i get what i forgot. at the gas station when the baby is asleep if i'm close enough to see the car from the store. but i leave all the doors OPEN b/c this being the south I'm more worried about heat stroke than kidnapping. i live in a small town too.


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## TranscendentalMom (Jun 28, 2002)

does anyone have a link to the other threads about this subject?


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## firstkid4me (Nov 11, 2005)

I did this once, Emily was 8 months old, and had her first real sickness. She wouldn't nurse at all that day (she wanted to, would start, then pull away screaming) and we found out she had a sore throat. She always nursed to sleep, so she didn't get a nap that day, and neither did I. I was so emotionally drained, when I was driving from the doctor's to the grocery store she fell asleep, I was so happy to get a break from the crying. I had to run in to get something, so I left her in the car, with the door locked. I asked a little old lady to keep an eye on her while I ran in, and she was happy to oblige (I'm sure I looked a mess!) I ran in and got what I needed, and as I was coming out, dh asked me to pick something else up (isn't that always the luck?) Emily was still asleep, and I wasn't sure if the old lady had frozen foods in her car, so I thanked her and she went on her way. I debated for a minute whether to go back in, and I did. I ran in, got what I needed, and came back out. When I got back out, Emily was screaming and near hysterical. I figure she must have woken up shortly after I left, and spent the few minutes crying, and I felt SO awful that I'd put her through that. I don't think I'd ever do that again, even though we live in a very rural area where people don't lock their doors and leave their cars running when they run into the corner store.

(I used this as an example as why I didn't think she could handle CIO on a mainstream board and they starting screaming about how Emily should be taken away from me. It upset me for a long time afterwards but it is nice to know that I'm not the only one who has done it. In certain cases, it's not a problem, IMO.)


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TranscendentalMom*
does anyone have a link to the other threads about this subject?

Well, here's the link to mine
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...t=police+truck


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

http://www.kidsandcars.org/ has lots of um, disturbing facts and stories.
It freaked me out.

Who knew children left alone in cars are at risk for, and there are personal stories concerning:

being left alone in a hot vehicle (hyperthermia)
inadvertently setting a vehicle into motion
getting trapped in power windows
getting trapped in a vehicle trunk
starting a fire inside a vehicle (?!)
being abducted while left in a vehicle

I think the power windows, being abducted, and starting fire scenarios were the ones that fuh-reaked me out. If a person stopped to think about it, a car is nothing but a little powder keg on wheels, ready to strangulate anyone inside. Ok, not really, but if you read the site you might think so.


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## Wabi Sabi (Dec 24, 2002)

I don't personally have issues with leaving a child in a car for literally just a minute or two as long as the car stays within sight at all times. I think that I have enough common sense and decent enough judgement to decide if/when it is safe and reasonable to do...and of course, that doesn't mean leaving it unlocked and running, LOL.


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## hotmamacita (Sep 25, 2002)

I agree Wabi.

I have done it when the twins were younger.


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## hotmamacita (Sep 25, 2002)

But I would find out the laws in your particular state first. Its good to know what the law is in the event that someone threatens to call the police on you for running a movie up to the blockbuster slot.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

ITA with Wabi Sabi too.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Well, I'm just neurotic and very easily swayed by personal stories of horrific car-induced trauma, so you'll be wanting to take whatever I say with a grain of salt. I'm an anti-carite.

But why DO cars catch on fire with kids inside? That is the nagging question in my mind. It seems so... not right. I mean, you think maybe it's just a one-off 12 year old smoking when mom goes into the store, but how do toddlers start fires in cars? Do the cars self-immolate? How weird.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Ahh, but are you equally swayed by stories of pedestrians being mowed down in crosswalks? Do those stories make you less likely to walk?? I don't know about your area but around here there's at least one pedestrian killed every month but I've never heard a story around here about spontaneous combustion of a vehicle with a toddler in it, or for that matter a story of a baby being stolen from a vehicle when a parent is in sight.
I really think it's about calculating actual risk and then deciding what risks you are willing to take for your family--I would NEVER not strap my baby into a carseat, but I would (and have) gone to the bank machine while my truck is parked at the curb.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Add me to the guilty list.

When it's -40F out and your pinkly warm baby is happily snoozing in his car seat, you gotta weigh the 100 percent likelihood of having a cold and screaming baby against the fraction-of-a-percent likelihood of something freaky happening while you're battling the elements for a minute.

OTOH, I've seen unattended kids that I've said something about and it reeeeeally pissed the other mama off. We were at a realtor's office getting some paperwork on a Saturday, and I stood outside for what seemed like an eternity while two kids, around the ages of three and five, bounced around the front seats of the car, _with the engine running and keys in ignition!_

Finally, I went inside and asked the realtor if she knew whose kids those were... turned out to be her secretary's kids. I don't know what the situation was-- maybe the secretary had to be at work on short notice, maybe she didn't have daycare on a Saturday, but I couldn't just sit there and watch those kids bounce around inside that car.

Their mama was peeved that I'd meddled in her business, but eeek!


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TranscendentalMom*
does anyone have a link to the other threads about this subject?

*I cannot believe what I witnessed today.*

Here is another thread about kids left in cars. The OP deleted her OP
so you might have to read a little to piece it together. If I remember
correctly it was about the OP witnessing a woman who left her baby in
the car when she went to mail a letter at the post office, and crossed the
street to get to the PO.

I went threw all the www.kidsincars.org stories and made a list of how
these children died in cars (my reply is on page 5 of the above post).
I would attribute the majority of the child deaths to be highly negligible
rather than simply "child left in car".


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

I would leave my seven year old and in the car if I have to run into the house real quick to grab something I forgot, otherwise no, I wouldn't leave my kid in the car alone. I always pay at the pump when getting gas etc. Beyond the house scenero, I've never been in a situation where I felt the need to leave the kids in the car. The library has a drive up drop off box and so does the movie store. I think if the weather were bad and I didn't want the kids out in that weather, I would just wait until DH was home to run my errands.

ETA I would have no problem walking somewhere to drop something off if the I could see the car the entire time, but that scenero has yet to happen.


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## graciesma (Oct 16, 2005)

Me and my sister live in the same town. There have been several times I have pulled up to a gas station or a grocery store to see her mint condition cadillac park in the fire lane with kids in it. Her dcs were 2.5 and 4.5. If the fire marshall were to see the caddy he will pull up on it and god forbid he sees kids in it. Yep there would be trouble. I would usually go up to the window and her older son would unlock the power locks and let me in. She would come out and say what the h*ll are you doing here. I would say if I was in the the market for a nice ass caddy the boys would have been walking around the parking lot and I would be driving and wrecking you vehicle. Two weeks after the last incident that very same caddy is yep you guessed it GONE. No kids in at the time but it is just that easy. LEAVING KIDS IN THE CAR IS DANGEROUS EVEN FOR REASONS NOT OBVIOIUS. I WOULD NEVER DO IT. If I saw someone doing it I cant say I woulndt report it.


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

I'll leave dd in the car for a minute if she's asleep and I can see her. The (to me) obvious safety rules apply: doors locked, she's in her carseat, it's not too hot or cold out. . . . Likewise, if she's snoozing when we get home and I have other things to carry into the house, I'll do that first, then come get her.

She can't get out of her safety belts yet. I don't see me leaving her in the car if she were able to climb out of her seat and reach the door or parking brake/gearshift.


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## Zach'smom (Nov 5, 2004)

I have left DS in the car while I have run back into the house to grab something. I have also gotten out to drop movies in the drop box, but I am only 2 feet from the car for about 10 seconds. I always pay at the pump and the library has a drop box I can pull up to with the car and the cleaners picks-up and drops off DH's clothes. We live in the suburbs and don't have any corner stores that I can just run into for just a moment.

I am more worried about the car getting to hot or DS getting out of his booster and putting the car in gear or getting out in a busy parking lot or something.


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## Butter (Oct 6, 2004)

There, probably as long as the car was on (for heat or air conditioning) and the kids either couldn't get out of their carseats or were old enough to know not to mess with anything that could make the car move. After having lived other places, though, I don't think I personally could because I am too used to living where it would be a bad idea.

I live in the middle of a city right outside Washington DC. Absolutely no way at all that I'd leave my kids in the car alone. It's just not safe. Of course we'd also never ever leave the door unlocked, unbolted, or unchained at night (during the day it is set to automatically be locked, but that can be picked pretty easily).

And, yes, if I ever forget something in the apartment I get the kids back out and take them in with me (it's actually only happened once). It's just not safe to leave kids outside (in or out of the car) alone here in my opinion (there are people that do it, but I won't just in case).


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## Jennifer3141 (Mar 7, 2004)

I was just talking about this the other day!! I just moved to a new town and it is so much different than my hometown. Up here, it gets quite a bit colder and there are days when it really isn't the safest to take your kidlets outside (-40 windchill Eep!) so it's evidently pretty common for people to leave their children in cars for dry cleaning pickups,gas paying, etc.

One store in our downtown area actually PAYS an employee to stand in the doorway watching all the cars with kids in them while the mamas run in for milk, etc when it's really nasty out.







:


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

I live in an urban area close to Boston, and I'm guilty --

BUT

only for dropping books into the library's outdoor drop-box (less than 10 feet from where the car is parked

and

paying for gas inside -- while literally keeping my eyes on the car the entire time (time away from car, approximately 1-2 minutes)

I'm comfortable with the above, but I'm not comfortable with anything else.


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## wahoowhippets (Dec 17, 2005)

When we lived up north we shared a driveway on a hill with our neighbor. The neighbor's daughter was over for a minute with her kids in the car. She ran into her mom's house for just a minute and in that time frame, one of her kids had moved the gearshift and the car started rolling down the hill--luckily mom of the kids saw this and was able to get out there in time to get into the car and stop it from going *into the street*--which was a busy one by the way (even with a speed limit of only 25 MPH people always sped down our street at like 40 MPH. Luckily nothing happened. I think you just need to use common sense about the individual situation (obviously this mom's common sense was out the window that day!).


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## stellimamo (Jan 9, 2006)

I leave my dd in the when I'm running back and forth from our apartment to our car. Its either leave in the car or in the apartment by herself and restrained in the seat is much safe IMO than allowing her to roam the apartment by herself. The longest I'm out of sight is 30 secs or so. I do leave her in the car if I'm running in to pay for gas but that is exceedingly rare because I hate getting gas so I usually make dp do it and when I do have to get it myself I usually pay at the pump. Of course this is all weather and surroundings permitting. If it 100 degrees or I'm in a shady neighborhood I wouldn't leave her. I listen to my gut in these cases.


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

This subject HAS been sort of exhausted at this board, but here's my $.02:

In my area, we do lock cars and houses, and I would never run into a store with DD in the car - she's 7 1/2. Believe me, she's asked, "Can't I just wait for you in the car?" but I say no. Unless I'm taking ten steps to drop library books or videos in the drop, she comes with me.

When she was younger and fell asleep in the car, I would pull the car into the garage, leave the car windows open and the door to the house (it's an attached garage) open, and sit in the family room (which is where the door is) and read a book. Never when it was hot in the garage, though.

That's about the extent of it. I don't know when I'll feel comfortable leaving her in the car while I run into the deli for a quart of milk, but it isn't going to be anytime soon. The fact that she's alone - no siblings - is a factor, too. Although sometimes when I see three kids bouncing around a car in a parking lot, I wonder if they're more likely to do something dangerous in a group.


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

I've done it many times. I come from a small town like the OP, my parents had to break into our house once when we came back from vacation. It was the one time I remember they locked the house and apparently the keys they thought worked in the doors didn't.lol

When I leave the kids in the car they know not to get out of their seats(only 2 are in carseats still). But even if they did they can't get the gearshift out of gear without pushing on the break pedal. I leave the car running(with either the heat or a/c on depending on the season) but take the keys with me. Our car starter has a feature where I can leave the car running but I take the keys with me. I don't park on hills, there just aren't any here.lol when I leave the doors are always locked.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
Do those stories make you less likely to walk?? I don't know about your area but around here there's at least one pedestrian killed every month but I've never heard a story around here about spontaneous combustion of a vehicle with a toddler in it, or for that matter a story of a baby being stolen from a vehicle when a parent is in sight.

No, I haven't heard of this, but I've made a note to never come to Saskatchewan, thanks!


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## sophiesue2 (Jan 15, 2005)

I'm not one to be paranoid or alarmist, and I always thought people overreacted to this topic. Then I met a woman with a daughter who had been killed by her brother when he accidently rolled the window up on her neck. It happened VERY quickly. It just made the topic a little more real to me I guess. I think it's hard to really consider all the things that could happen in that moment. It isn't a situation I've had to make a decision on in real life yet though.


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## treemom2 (Oct 1, 2003)

I personally have never done this when out and about, but have left the children in the car when we were at home and I forgot something in the house--never with the keys in the car and usually with a door or two open. Right now we live on a military base and the rules are pretty strict here, children are never allowed in the car alone even when running into the gas station just to pay for your gas (DH got in trouble for this one). However, off base here in Japan, it seems all the Japanese parents do this--we always see kids in the cars alone at the grocery store, some small shops, etc. . .Of course, crime here isn't as rampant and you would never have to worry about someone reporting you here because the philosophy in Japan is that you are the parent and you love your children and would always take the best care of them.


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## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treemom2*
you would never have to worry about someone reporting you here because the philosophy in Japan is that you are the parent and you love your children and would always take the best care of them.

Off-topic, but that is so wonderful--it's nice to see a society that assumes the best, instead of the worst.


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## paxye (Mar 31, 2005)

I pay at the pump etc... and personally I don't feel comfortable going into a building in a busyier place and leaving the kids in the car... (store etc)

but...

I do leave them in the car in my driveway if I have to grab something. And a friend of mine leaves hers in the car if they are sleeping when she comes to visit... (small town, quiet street)
I have also left the kids sleep in the car when I go to her house even though I can't see the car but I check it often and we put a monitor in the car to hear when they wake up... (she lives on a farm in the middle of nowhere) The kids are in their carseats so can't do anything (like set a fire or start the car etc)
My friends dd sleeps in a stroller outside in the barn for naps and has since she was tiny...and it is way further then where the kids are in the car... (again she puts a monitor next to her dd)
I think there are situations that it can be ok... there are many times that I would never even think of it...


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## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

If you leave small children unattended in a parking lot, even for just a few minutes, you can bet your right butt cheek, I'll be calling the police and child services on you. (I'm a MR but I would either way.)

On the other hand, I've left my children in the car in our driveway for two seconds while I grab my forgotten glasses off the table.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I leave dd in the car to run (and I mean literally run) to the outside library or movie drop off, or to run into the house to grab something I forgot.

My biggest concern is that I consider a car a very unsafe environment for unsupervised play. I know that my dd will stay buckled in and spend those moments observing my progress. If dd were a more adventurous, mischievious, or impulsive child, or if I had multiple children likely to antangonize each other, I probably wouldn't even leave her/them that long.


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## MissAbbyRosesMamma (Apr 28, 2006)

i would NEVER leave her in the car, other than running in the house. but thats just cuz of where i live. my old neighborhood i would, like youve all said, if i could see her, weather ok, etc... and really we dont live anywhere all that bad. and if she falls asleep in the car, i recline my seat and take a nap too!








: thats really very entertaining


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama*
http://www.kidsandcars.org/ has lots of um, disturbing facts and stories.
It freaked me out.

Who knew children left alone in cars are at risk for, and there are personal stories concerning:

being left alone in a hot vehicle (hyperthermia)
inadvertently setting a vehicle into motion
getting trapped in power windows
getting trapped in a vehicle trunk
starting a fire inside a vehicle (?!)
being abducted while left in a vehicle

I think the power windows, being abducted, and starting fire scenarios were the ones that fuh-reaked me out. If a person stopped to think about it, a car is nothing but a little powder keg on wheels, ready to strangulate anyone inside. Ok, not really, but if you read the site you might think so.

Who knew? Not meaning to insult anyone, but all of those ideas are, well, pretty self-evident with two minutes' worth of thinking, aren't they? Seriously? I'm not trying to sound derisive, just astounded.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama*
Well, I'm just neurotic and very easily swayed by personal stories of horrific car-induced trauma, so you'll be wanting to take whatever I say with a grain of salt. I'm an anti-carite.

But why DO cars catch on fire with kids inside? That is the nagging question in my mind. It seems so... not right. I mean, you think maybe it's just a one-off 12 year old smoking when mom goes into the store, but how do toddlers start fires in cars? Do the cars self-immolate? How weird.

Car lighter or regular lighters left in the car.


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## 4imprints (Jun 29, 2005)

I was kidnapped while waiting inside the car outside of a gas station for my mother. She only ran in to pay (before there were pay at the pumps). I was in a police chase, raped, and shot in the head.

Leaving your kids in the car is NEVER good.

Oh - and this was at 5:30 - during rush hour traffic, on a very busy street - would have thought that there were too many people around for someone to attempt that.


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## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama*
http://www.kidsandcars.org/ has lots of um, disturbing facts and stories.
It freaked me out.

Who knew children left alone in cars are at risk for, and there are personal stories concerning:

being left alone in a hot vehicle (hyperthermia)
inadvertently setting a vehicle into motion
getting trapped in power windows
getting trapped in a vehicle trunk
starting a fire inside a vehicle (?!)
being abducted while left in a vehicle

I think the power windows, being abducted, and starting fire scenarios were the ones that fuh-reaked me out. If a person stopped to think about it, a car is nothing but a little powder keg on wheels, ready to strangulate anyone inside. Ok, not really, but if you read the site you might think so.

What always worries me is kids overheating in a hot car.

A weird part was in reading many of those stories (of hyperthermia)--the parents (usually the father) actually forgot that the kid was in the car and just took off and then later remembered they'd left the baby in the car. Very sad.

I would and have left DS in the car to run to the mailbox, to drop off a video, to run back into the house to get something, etc. Never for more than a minute or two.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

The ONLY time I ever leave my son in the car unattended is when the car is parked in the closed garage and I forget something and run back in the house for a minute. Too risky for anything more imo and even doing this I feel guilty. I think of the situation where something might happen to ME, and I would be unable to return to my child in the parked car and no one else might know that he is there.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *la mamita*
What always worries me is kids overheating in a hot car.

A weird part was in reading many of those stories (of hyperthermia)--the parents (usually the father) actually forgot that the kid was in the car and just took off and then later remembered they'd left the baby in the car. Very sad.

I would and have left DS in the car to run to the mailbox, to drop off a video, to run back into the house to get something, etc. Never for more than a minute or two.

This happens every year where I live, which is very hot. The babies are blistered, sometimes so burned they're unrecognizable. The car heats up to over 100 degrees within three seconds of turning off the air conditioner. If I saw a baby in a car, not only would I call 911, I'm breaking into your car to save your kid. Sorry about your window.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
Who knew? Not meaning to insult anyone, but all of those ideas are, well, pretty self-evident with two minutes' worth of thinking, aren't they? Seriously? I'm not trying to sound derisive, just astounded.

Well, we're not all intellectually gifted.







I guess I don't have one of those kids (that I know of) who would play with cigarette lighters or the power windows, seeing as she can't even undo her carseat latches, so it never really occurred to me as a hidden danger. I just figure I won't leave my kid in the car in case there are some unknown dangers that I still yet haven't thought of (flying daggers in the airbags? hidden boomerangs in the dashboard? trolls with matches?).

If you look at the site, some of the children were playing with cigarette lighters, while others - they don't know why the car caught fire. It just did.

I do think it's all about chances. The chances of something bad happening to your kid are like 1/10,000. But if your kid IS that one, then it's pretty crappy. I mean, I doubt any of the parents involved were like, "Yeah, I'll go in and pick up my oldest at Kindergarten for a quick minute and the other kids might light themselves on fire, but hey, I'll be back out in time, prolly." They probably did it 50 other times and nothing bad happened, so why would it happen this one other random time?


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama*
No, I haven't heard of this, but I've made a note to never come to Saskatchewan, thanks!









Well, I don't live in Saskatchewan, so I'm not sure why you'd avoid it but I do want to know where you live that has never had a pedestrian killed!!


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
Well, I don't live in Saskatchewan, so I'm not sure why you'd avoid it but I do want to know where you live that has never had a pedestrian killed!!

d'OH. You know Saskatchewan...Ontario...Trois Rivieres...Minto...Newfoundland... to us geographically challenged Americans it's all the same.







: On a new topic, I really like these new smileys.

The pedestrian things don't concern me as much, other than it reinforces my anti-carite tendencies and I enjoy yelling at cars who cut me off in any way. In my city, pedestrians hitting cars who they feel are "out of bounds" is very common. I myself have hit a car or two. I just think cars are teh devil.

Yes I have a car, and I hate it as well.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4imprints*
I was kidnapped while waiting inside the car outside of a gas station for my mother. She only ran in to pay (before there were pay at the pumps). I was in a police chase, raped, and shot in the head.

Leaving your kids in the car is NEVER good.

Oh - and this was at 5:30 - during rush hour traffic, on a very busy street - would have thought that there were too many people around for someone to attempt that.











I do know that crimes and accidents can occur with parents in sight, or only out of sight for "just one minute," in daylight, on busy streets or in a busy mall, in a town with a low crime rate, at the hands of friendly-looking people - and of course even with parent fully present.

Yet it is clear that you have to make choices, and choosing the safest choice every time would probably require that you live like a nutcase.

I'm so glad I don't personally have to make this choice - I don't drive and my DH and I are always together. So either he runs the errands alone, or all 3 of us go, and if he runs in just for a minute, I'll be there. But even that isn't "perfectly safe." I read in Reader's Digest, for instance, a story of a woman whose two children were kidnapped right from her - it wasn't a case of her leaving the car for just a minute though (she slowed the car down since the kidnapper-to-be seemed in distress - and then he pulled her out of the car and took off with her kids in the backseat).


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4imprints*
I was kidnapped while waiting inside the car outside of a gas station for my mother. She only ran in to pay (before there were pay at the pumps). I was in a police chase, raped, and shot in the head.

Leaving your kids in the car is NEVER good.

Oh - and this was at 5:30 - during rush hour traffic, on a very busy street - would have thought that there were too many people around for someone to attempt that.

I'm very sorry this happened to you.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I'll leave the little ones in the car with ds1. He's 13, and has actually done some babysitting for us, as well (under an hour kind of thing). I do insist on the doors being locked in that case.

Twice I've left dd and ds2 in the car, in their carseats, while i ran into a corner store. I could see the car the whole time, and don't see a problem there.

I also leave them in the car out front (I live in a townhouse complex, and don't have my own driveway or carport) while I unload the groceries. Otherwise, they run around and get out of the house and I think they're safer in their seats than they are running around while my arms are full and I'm distracted by groceries. So...that's probably about 5-10 minutes, but I'm back out to the car constantly, _and_ can see them from the kitchen window when I'm putting down the bags.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joannarachel*
If you leave small children unattended in a parking lot, even for just a few minutes, you can bet your right butt cheek, I'll be calling the police and child services on you. (I'm a MR but I would either way.)

On the other hand, I've left my children in the car in our driveway for two seconds while I grab my forgotten glasses off the table.

If I'm in the parking lot at a corner store...no other cars, and nobody around, how is that any less safe than my driveway (if I had one)?


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## mother culture (Oct 19, 2004)

I live in a small town and I do it in the off Summer months but only when I can see them and I don't lock the doors I actually like them open. (sliding van doors) I think my youngest has had moore naps in the car than in my arms. Sad!


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

The only time I've ever left babe in the car while I paid for gas is when it was so bone chilling cold outside (as in, wind chill of about 5 degrees F or so) and it seem more humane of me to let him stay in the car while I ran in to pay (less than 5 seconds) rather than to bring him out of the car in such weather. I sat in the car grappling with how I was going to get him out of the car inside to pay for about 10 mins at the pump after pumping the gas before I just did it. I would have just nixed on the gas altogether if I thought I could get home. But the needle was below the E.

I felt terrible afterwards, and all the horrible things that "could" have happenned went through my mind afterwards.

I have never done it since and would never do it again. It's makes me uncomfortable.

I have left him asleep in the crib while cleaning, and stepped outside breifly to put the trash in the outside can. Also less than 30 seconds.


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## 4imprints (Jun 29, 2005)

Storm Bride - no offense - but I was 13 also when I was kidnapped. When someone holds a gun to your head your first instinct isn't going to be to lunge at them. A 13 year old is in no way capable of fending off an attacker. Also - when my mom went into the gas station she could see the car the whole time. Of course, those two seconds that you look away can be a lifetime to a child. And it wouldn't have mattered. He had sped off before she could run back to us.

Its not that I'm trying to criticize - I just hope that parents can learn from my situation. That being said - my very own sister leaves her 3 kids in the car while another mom in the car next to her "watches" them and she runs in to the school for things.

Whenever I have a "quick" errand to run - like dropping movies off or getting one thing from the store - I wait until my husband gets home from work and leave the kids with them. Or I take them with me.

I just can't comprehend consciously taking that risk. OF course I don't blame my mom for what happened to me - after all this was 12 years ago and these things were unheard of. But she blames herself everyday of her life - and I'm still alive.


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## 4imprints (Jun 29, 2005)

Oh - I also wanted to add that the man who kidnapped me wasn't from another car. He was sitting very quietly in a corner - you couldn't see him- waiting to steal a car (it was unfortunate that I was in it).

No one ever believes that it will happen to them - but it only takes a second.


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## MichaelsSahm (May 11, 2006)

My answer is: Commen Sense. Whatever happened to commen sense? If you leave your child in a car alone, doesn't commen sense say "wait, my child could get kidnapped? my child could get over heated in a none running car?"


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Sara...who's to say that your mom being there would have made a difference? You're talking about a man with a gun, and frankly...adults are killed in that situation every day. I'm not sure I'd do any better in that situation than my son would...he's as tall as I am, weighs 135 pounds, and has had martial arts training, which I haven't. He's better equipped to deal with most attackers than I am, and neither of us is equipped to deal with a man with a gun. Most cases like yours that I've read/heard about have been grown women.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Sara, I will carry your story with me. I am terribly sorry that happened to you, and I thank you for sharing your experience with us.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

When evaluating the risk, consider the risk of being reported to Child Protective Services and bringing that on your children. That is a real risk, and that risk may be significantly higher than the risk of a criminal grabbing them. Would you leave one million bucks on the seat unattended? If not, don't leave your child.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kmisje*
My answer is: Commen Sense. Whatever happened to commen sense? If you leave your child in a car alone, doesn't commen sense say "wait, my child could get kidnapped? my child could get over heated in a none running car?"

Overheated? In under a minute? I don't know about anywhere else, but it's never been that hot here.

And, as I said to Sara, if someone were to want to kidnap my kids (please, god no!), I'm not convinced that my presence would stop them.

Sara - I'm doubtful that he "just" wanted to steal a car. If that were the case, he'd have probably dumped you on the pavement, instead of risking a much bigger rap for kidnap, rape & attempted murder. I'm very, very sorry that happened to you.


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## MichaelsSahm (May 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
If I'm in the parking lot at a corner store...no other cars, and nobody around, how is that any less safe than my driveway (if I had one)?

I AGREE.....I would rathe runstrap my child out of his car seat, get my glasses, then leaving him alone ANYWHERE in a car.
Now you can tell me you live in the safest area, but those are usually the people I see on the news "my neighborhood is so good, I don't know what happened" well guess what? criminals are EVERYWHERE.

I know you can protect your children from everything, but you can make the choice NOT to leave your kids in a car by themselfs.

I don't care if its in tim buktoo.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *inezyv*
When evaluating the risk, consider the risk of being reported to Child Protective Services and bringing that on your children. That is a real risk, and that risk may be significantly higher than the risk of a criminal grabbing them. Would you leave one million bucks on the seat unattended? If not, don't leave your child.

I can't imagine having a million bucks. But, I have left my purse (with most of my cash, debit card, credit card & all my ID) on the seat for as long as I've left my kids, and in the same circumstances. If someone's going to be able to steal my car and/or grab my kids out of their carseats before I get back to the car (less than 10 seconds..._I_ can't get my kids out of their carseats that fast), I don't think my presence is going to change anything.


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## MichaelsSahm (May 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
Overheated? In under a minute? I don't know about anywhere else, but it's never been that hot here.

In Arizona, it gets 120 degrees, YES in ONE minute a child could get over heated here, want to know how many children died in Arizona because parents were too lazy to take their kids out of the car here to go pay for gass???

And I am talking small infant babies, in a none running car. With NO a/c on.
It may not happen in some places, but why take a chance???


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kmisje*
I AGREE.....I would rathe runstrap my child out of his car seat, get my glasses, then leaving him alone ANYWHERE in a car.
Now you can tell me you live in the safest area, but those are usually the people I see on the news "my neighborhood is so good, I don't know what happened" well guess what? criminals are EVERYWHERE.

I know you can protect your children from everything, but you can make the choice NOT to leave your kids in a car by themselfs.

I don't care if its in tim buktoo.

Criminals are everywhere - no doubt, and I'm not arguing. But...take my groceries. I get out of the car (parked out front...about 15 feet or so from my door), unlock the door and set down my purse inside. Then, I go back to the car, and open the back, and grab a couple bags. I go back in the house, drop the bags, and come back out. When I'm done, I let dd out her seat, and she waits with me while I take ds2 out of his seat, then we all go back in together.

When I first moved here and started driving, I tried a few other things...like letting them go in the house first. DD would bolt past me while I was unloading and get out into the parking lot. So, if someone wanted to snatch her then, he'd have just had to pick her up, instead of either hotwiring my car or getting her out of her seat. They're safer in the car while I unload.


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kmisje*
In Arizona, it gets 120 degrees, YES in ONE minute a child could get over heated here, want to know how many children died in Arizona because parents were too lazy to take their kids out of the car here to go pay for gass???

OK, in Arizona, yes, that's a concern. But don't then apply that to *everyone.*


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kmisje*
In Arizona, it gets 120 degrees, YES in ONE minute a child could get over heated here, want to know how many children died in Arizona because parents were too lazy to take their kids out of the car here to go pay for gass???

If it were 120 degrees, I wouldn't be able to leave the house, so that's not a big worry for me. If my kids can get overheated in one minute in the car, they're no safer at home, because I don't have AC, and it gets hot here in the summer...just as hot as the car.

I love the non-judgmental "lazy", btw. I only pay at the pump. Otherwise, I wouldn't ever put gas in the car while the kids were with me, because I don't want dd in the gas station parking lot while I unstrap her brother and I can't unstrap her while holding him. I also wouldn't leave them in the car in a gas station...there are too many cars and people around for me to be able to count on seeing the car the whole time.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

My Dd freaks when I try I leave her in the car in the garage to run back and get something I forgot. So, I couldn't leave her if I wanted to. I have a feeling, though, that under the right circumstances (safer area, child locked in car, can see the car, just running in for 2 minutes, weather is temperate) I'd leave a small child in the car. I don't feel that would be unsafe.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kmisje*
My answer is: Commen Sense. Whatever happened to commen sense? If you leave your child in a car alone, doesn't commen sense say "wait, my child could get kidnapped? my child could get over heated in a none running car?"

Well, common sense also tells me that there is a greater risk of being hit as a pedestrian in a parking lot than there is of kidnapping by stranger. Overheating, hey sure, but the OP didn't say "So, it was hot enough to fry an egg on the sidewalk and I left my baby in my black car with no air and the windows up"
I'm an EMT and a search and rescue worker, I can tell you that overheating in 60 seconds is pretty darned unusual--getting hit by a car while running errands, being held up at bank machines, a 2 yr getting out of a parents grasp while in a parking lot--those are real risks that happen FAR more frequently than the ones many of us live in fear of.

I agree Sara that what happened to you was horrible, but I also agree that it probably would have happened whether your mother was in the car or not. Also, it's natural that YOU will be more sensitive to THAT issue--I'm freaked out about parking lots since I responded to a call where mom and a 4 yr old were both killed by an elderly lady who thought the car was in forward but it was in reverse--they were in a parking lot--mom was returning a movie--that's the only reason they were there, had she pulled up to the curb and ran out quickly, she and her dd would be alive.

It's all about what actually feels like REAL risk to each person. I don't go for a walk without the dogs--why?? Cause there's a bear that lives in the bush at the end of our road, not a true or real risk to someone living in New York City, but it is a real risk where I live.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama*
I guess I don't have one of those kids (that I know of) who would play with cigarette lighters or the power windows, seeing as she can't even undo her carseat latches, so it never really occurred to me as a hidden danger.

The thing about that is that suddenly, one day, they *can* undo their latches. Ds was very proud of himself when that happened.









I've never left ds in the car in my driveway because I can't see the driveway from my house. And I've always been concerned that I'd do something silly like trip over my feet while running in, bash my head on the sidewalk, and be out cold for the next hour. Yeah, yeah, I know. I can be a bit of a klutz, though, so it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility

When he was a toddler and I had to carry groceries or other packages in, I'd have the wrap or mei tai handy and tie him on my back. It was a lot of weight to deal with, but it's only a few minutes... and good exercise.









I do leave him now, occasionally, to drop a movie in the slot (though most times he wants to do it) or to drop books in the outdoor library box. But that means being maybe 5 feet from the door and I lock the car with the remote locks when I get out.

It just seems like too big of a risk to me. Even though there's risk in getting him out and walking with him through a parking lot, it feels lesser because I'm holding his hand and could potentially help him if he needed it whereas, if he's in the car and someone goes after him, there's really little to no chance of me helping him from a distance.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Dragonfly--wanna know my biggest slightly irrational fear??

I won't do laundry when I'm home alone with dd cause I'm afraid I'll fall down the stairs and be knocked out. A lot of the same risks people are worried about have directly similar possibilities inside our own homes where we think we're safe.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
Dragonfly--wanna know my biggest slightly irrational fear??

I won't do laundry when I'm home alone with dd cause I'm afraid I'll fall down the stairs and be knocked out. A lot of the same risks people are worried about have directly similar possibilities inside our own homes where we think we're safe.

I know. I used to worry about stuff like that, too, although a little less so because at least then he would be in a secured, familiar space. (See... thought it all out.







).

Whenever this subject comes up, I always remember your story about leaving Molly in the car with the dogs while you went to the ATM, shannon. I'm pretty sure I'd have no trouble whatsoever leaving ds in the car under those circumstances!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
I've never left ds in the car in my driveway because I can't see the driveway from my house. And I've always been concerned that I'd do something silly like trip over my feet while running in, bash my head on the sidewalk, and be out cold for the next hour. Yeah, yeah, I know. I can be a bit of a klutz, though, so it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility

OMG! I'd _much_ rather that dd and ds2 were in the car in their car seats if that happened. I keep the door open while I'm running groceries back and forth, so if they weren't in the car, they could be _anywhere_ - run over in the parking lot, drowned in the creek, falling down our stairs in the house, playing with knives...oh, my head hurts just thinking about it!


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
OMG! I'd _much_ rather that dd and ds2 were in the car in their car seats if that happened. I keep the door open while I'm running groceries back and forth, so if they weren't in the car, they could be _anywhere_ - run over in the parking lot, drowned in the creek, falling down our stairs in the house, playing with knives...oh, my head hurts just thinking about it!









:







:









Tell me about it! There's no easy way out of that one! Those thoughts have mostly bothered me when it's sweltering hot outside and I've thought about dashing in for just a second. Then I think, "if I bashed my head, he'd be stuck in the car and would overheat and die."

Hopeless.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

If I'm unloading groceries, the tailgate is lifted, so they probably wouldn't overheat, but...YIKES!

I guess I'll just have to hope that if anything like that ever happens, a neighbour or my landlord (who is always out and about the complex taking care of things) finds me before anyone else does!


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
The thing about that is that suddenly, one day, they *can* undo their latches. Ds was very proud of himself when that happened.









You know, I'm really looking forward to that day, whenever it decides to arrive. I've got the laziest-butt kid when it comes to getting her seatbelt on or off. She's SIX by the ways. She'd rather be reading her book than having to fasten her own belt.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
I won't do laundry when I'm home alone with dd cause I'm afraid I'll fall down the stairs and be knocked out. A lot of the same risks people are worried about have directly similar possibilities inside our own homes where we think we're safe.

Man, we're like a 20/20 episode just itchin' to happen!







: It's like the safetyfirst catalog... you know I hadn't really thought that my child might stick all the silverware in the VCR and electrocute herself somehow, but now that you mention it...maybe I _should_ get that VCR blocker. Or maybe just upgrade to the DVD player...


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama*
you know I hadn't really thought that my child might stick all the silverware in the VCR and electrocute herself somehow, but now that you mention it...maybe I _should_ get that VCR blocker. Or maybe just upgrade to the DVD player...

I just anchored mine to the ceiling.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
I just anchored mine to the ceiling.









Hee. What, the silverware or the VCR? Good idea. If I could just anchor everything to the ceiling, this neurotic mama could quit worrying and get a good night's rest for once (what was that noise? was it my daughter sleepwalking and falling down three flights of unsecured stairs of our townhouse? was it the baby, up crawling and drowning in the toilet? was it a _werewolf_?!)


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
Well, common sense also tells me that there is a greater risk of being hit as a pedestrian in a parking lot than there is of kidnapping by stranger. Overheating, hey sure, but the OP didn't say "So, it was hot enough to fry an egg on the sidewalk and I left my baby in my black car with no air and the windows up"

Exactly!


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## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
If I'm in the parking lot at a corner store...no other cars, and nobody around, how is that any less safe than my driveway (if I had one)?

Opportunity. Anyone could be walking through a parking lot. Not so likely that someone is walking through your driveway. (I do live in a fairly isolated area on a fairly large piece of property...If I lived in the city or in a different environment I'd be singing a different tune.)

I saw you say you leave your 13 year old to supervise your little one. That seems fine to me







:


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## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Ok....that smiley face was just supposed to be a regular smiley face....I didn't realize there was going to be a tomato thrown at it


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## clavicula (Apr 10, 2005)

as for me: i wouldn't.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joannarachel*
I saw you say you leave your 13 year old to supervise your little one. That seems fine to me







:

Well...he wasn't there the two times I went into the corner store. But, if somebody tried to call CPS, I probably wasn't even gone long enough to write down the license plate number. I actually sat in the lot with the kids the second time. There were a few other customers and I wanted the store to be _empty_, so I could dash in, make my purchase and get out.

I really don't get why that freaks people out so much. I wasn't gone any longer than it would take to open my car door and undo the carseat...and I never took my eyes off the car. Actually, I got rooked on my change the first time, because I didn't even look at it...


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

I've left my children in the car while i went in to pay for gas. The doors were locked and they were in my sight the whole time. If something would have happened, it would have taken me about 5 seconds (or less) to get to them. I think this type of situation is fine. However, i would never leave them for more than just a minute, and never if they were going to be out of my sight.


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## 4imprints (Jun 29, 2005)

I would be curious for one of you "shoppers" to actually time yourself while in the store. I don't know what store you are at but for me just to buy a jug of milk it takes me at least 5-10 min.

And yes, freaky things do happen. There was a women hit in WalMart parking lot while she was holding her 14 month old (so he wouldn't run into traffic) and was hit and the baby was killed. So on one hand I would say that wouldn't prevent me from walking in the parking lot - but those are things that "need" to happen. You can't get to the store without walking through the parking lot.

However, not taking your kids out of the car is just plain old laziness. There - I said it - not to offend anyone - that is just my perspective on it. Remember this is coming from me.

And trust me - there were days when I thought life would be so much easier if I could just leave them in the car for two seconds. One day I had to run to the store before school for a 2 liter that I was suppose to bring to a party - and my DD wouldn't would have been late for school if I could have left them in the car.


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## Rhiannon Feimorgan (Aug 26, 2005)

until recently I lived in a small rural town with a low crime rate. I used to think that leaving my ds (then 3) in the car for just a min was fine if I could see the car. Our post office has large windows overlooking the parking lot but you have to walk through the loby with all the boxes where you can't see the car to get there. In the time it took for me to walk out of the office, check my box (I'm talking 10sec.) and walk out the door, ds had decided to come look for me, unlocked the door (I didn't know he could do that but he had watched me and figured it out) and run into the road.

Never again!


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

I can get to the store without walking through the parking lot, I either park right up beside the store, or if that's a fire lane, I park as close as I can. I hardly think being hit in a Walmart parking lot and having your baby die is something that "needs" to happen.
The thread I had ages ago I actually measured the distances and it was closer for me to go directly to the bank machine than it would have been to go around the truck and get the baby out of the truck.
If it takes you 5-10 minutes to buy a gallon of milk...you must be related to my husband cause I can frequently do $100 in groceries in 15 minutes and yes I have timed it, a number of times because I'm literally running in between appts.


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## townmouse (May 3, 2004)

Cue Twilight Zone music....

I minorly freak out when I see one of these threads on MDC. Do you know that every single time I have read a left-in-the-car thread here, within a day or two there is a kidnapping at a gas station here in Indianapolis?

It is always the same. Dad/Mom ran in to pay, or get cigarettes or whatever, and the second they were in the door somebody drove off with their kids. The latest one I remember, they showed the security camera on the news and the Dad was still walking into the store when his SUV pulled away.

On the plus side it seems they always catch them before they get out of the state.

I'll let you know if it happens again this week







:


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4imprints*
I would be curious for one of you "shoppers" to actually time yourself while in the store. I don't know what store you are at but for me just to buy a jug of milk it takes me at least 5-10 min.

Walk into corner store - pick up jug of milk - take to counter - hand guy $5.00 - take change. Two minutes - tops. My eyes are off the car long enough to grab the jug of milk...I don't look away at any other time.

You're entitled to your opinion. I'm not waking up my sleeping baby to lug him into a store and chase dd all over the place - probably including into the parking lot - just so someone else doesn't think I'm lazy. If I parented based on _other_ people's risk assessments and opinions, I probably wouldn't be breastfeeding, and I certainly wouldn't be co-sleeping.

townmouse: How do people get into a locked car and hotwire it that fast if the parents are watching?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4imprints*
And trust me - there were days when I thought life would be so much easier if I could just leave them in the car for two seconds. One day I had to run to the store before school for a 2 liter that I was suppose to bring to a party - and my DD wouldn't would have been late for school if I could have left them in the car.

I can remember thinking my life would be so much easier if I had a car at all. DS1 was late for school almost every day in first grade...hard to make up the time on little legs once you've managed to get everybody ready. This isn't about it being "easier" generally. It's about balancing risk and what's easier for my kids. DD is _much_ more likely to get away from me and run into traffic in a parking lot than she is to get loose of her carseat and/or be kidnapped in the two minutes I'm in the store watching her. And, ds2 has been asleep both times. I'm not waking him up on the off-chance that a weirdo is going to appear from nowhere, unlock my car doors and either hotwire the car or get my kids out of their seats...all in the two minutes that I'm gone, and while I'm watching.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *townmouse*
Cue Twilight Zone music....

I minorly freak out when I see one of these threads on MDC. Do you know that every single time I have read a left-in-the-car thread here, within a day or two there is a kidnapping at a gas station here in Indianapolis?

It is always the same. Dad/Mom ran in to pay, or get cigarettes or whatever, and the second they were in the door somebody drove off with their kids. The latest one I remember, they showed the security camera on the news and the Dad was still walking into the store when his SUV pulled away.

On the plus side it seems they always catch them before they get out of the state.

I'll let you know if it happens again this week







:

In all those cases, the parent left the keys in the ignition and the car doors unlocked. The OP described a completely different situation.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4imprints*
However, not taking your kids out of the car is just plain old laziness. There - I said it - not to offend anyone - that is just my perspective on it. Remember this is coming from me.

When I was a girl, my mom used to give us a choice to stay in the car or go into the store with her. We virtually always stayed in the car and listened to the radio. My mom wasn't lazy. She knew what we could and could not handle and was respectful of our choices.


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## firstkid4me (Nov 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kmisje*
In Arizona, it gets 120 degrees, YES in ONE minute a child could get over heated here, want to know how many children died in Arizona because parents were too lazy to take their kids out of the car here to go pay for gass???

And I am talking small infant babies, in a none running car. With NO a/c on.
It may not happen in some places, but why take a chance???

Well, that's in Arizona, I can tell you that if I were living there, I wouldn't leave Emily in the car, but in Wisconsin in the fall, it doesn't get that hot. The car might get to the 70's inside, and there's really no risk there from getting overheated. You have to understand that everyone's situation is different, and take it into account when saying overheating can happen in a minute because yes, it can happen, but I don't see that happening in WI in the fall.


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## firstkid4me (Nov 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
The thing about that is that suddenly, one day, they *can* undo their latches. Ds was very proud of himself when that happened.









I've never left ds in the car in my driveway because I can't see the driveway from my house. And I've always been concerned that I'd do something silly like trip over my feet while running in, bash my head on the sidewalk, and be out cold for the next hour. Yeah, yeah, I know. I can be a bit of a klutz, though, so it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility

When he was a toddler and I had to carry groceries or other packages in, I'd have the wrap or mei tai handy and tie him on my back. It was a lot of weight to deal with, but it's only a few minutes... and good exercise.









I do leave him now, occasionally, to drop a movie in the slot (though most times he wants to do it) or to drop books in the outdoor library box. But that means being maybe 5 feet from the door and I lock the car with the remote locks when I get out.

It just seems like too big of a risk to me. Even though there's risk in getting him out and walking with him through a parking lot, it feels lesser because I'm holding his hand and could potentially help him if he needed it whereas, if he's in the car and someone goes after him, there's really little to no chance of me helping him from a distance.

I guess it's a good thing we have a car that doesn't have a cigarette lighter







I heard about the story of the woman on Oprah who left 3 of her kids in the car and they lit it on fire with the cigarette lighter. Yes, it's sad, but she should have taught them LONG ago (one of the kids was 8) that they shouldn't be playing with it.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

I took the cigarette lighter out as soon as ds figured out what it was. He loves gadgets AND fire. I was happy when he got old enough to get out of his carseat by himself because I always worried that something would happen to me if I ran back inside for something that I forgot and he would be stuck in the car indefinitly.

At his current age (almost 5), I would only leave him in the car if I was parked where he wouldn't have to cross the parking lot at all to get to me and I had good visibility. I would never leave the keys in the car with him. He would be able to start the car if he wanted. I let him stay in the car with the motor running only when I get out to open the garage door. I have a strict rule that he may not climb into the front seat when the motor is on and I am not in the driver's seat. He likes to climb up and work the wipers, turn signals, lights, etc, while I pull into the garage. He is a strange mix of cautious and over-confident so I never know what to expect.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firstkid4me*
I heard about the story of the woman on Oprah who left 3 of her kids in the car and they lit it on fire with the cigarette lighter. Yes, it's sad, but she should have taught them LONG ago (one of the kids was 8) that they shouldn't be playing with it.

You can teach kids things, but they don't always do as you teach them. Kids--especially groups of kids--do stupid things sometimes. That is why I feel that it is unsafe for children to be unsupervised in a car. Way too many big hazards for people of immature judgment.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Yep, you can also teach kids they MUST hold your hand in a parking lot--that doesn't mean they won't break loose. Again, which is more dangerous? loose toddler in a parking lot or loose toddler in a car where mom can see and react within 30 seconds???
Having put 6 too many toddlers in body bags, I can say that not one of them had been left in a car where parents could see.


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

Quote:

In Arizona, it gets 120 degrees, YES in ONE minute a child could get over heated here, want to know how many children died in Arizona because parents were too lazy to take their kids out of the car here to go pay for gass???
If it were 120 degree's I wouldn't be leaving my house.


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## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
You can teach kids things, but they don't always do as you teach them. Kids--especially groups of kids--do stupid things sometimes. That is why I feel that it is unsafe for children to be unsupervised in a car. Way too many big hazards for people of immature judgment.

What about an 11 month old who is strapped into his carseat? He physically doesn't have the force to press the button to unbuckle himself out of his seat. There's nothing within his reach (no lighters, no flamethrowers, no matches). I think everyone imagines this situation differently--the number of kids, the safety of the neighborhood, the relative risks of walking outside vs. staying in the car.

And I do agree with you that you can learn something and still mess up and do something stupid later...how many teens have been educated to not drink and drive and then done it themselves? too many


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Why is it so hard to accept that different people weigh their risks vs. benefits differently? There are many factors here....temperature, location, age of kid(s), etc..... Each person is going to look at their cards and decide what tips the scale for them. Coming on here to say "I do x,y,or z" is fine. Calling one camp "lazy" and the other "paranoid" is actually against the user agreement (isn't it?). I have run across VERY few parents on MDC that I would say have really "wacked" views on what we all agree to be good parenting. It cracks me up that we fight over these tiny details.

So who is "better"? The parents that makes their kid misrable on a frequent basis by keeping them "safe"? Can we say bubble? Or the parents that neglect their kids in order to achieve that laziness they want so much? No one here is anywhere close to either camp.

For me the situation was different with age and where we are. My climate is never very hot and even on mildly warm days, I would never leave any human in my car without it running and with the AC on. Same with really cold days and heat. That means my car is running and not locked. So that automatically limits me to my driveway, friend's driveways/yards, right next to me on the sidewalk, camping spots, library/video slot (never more than 5 feet away), all within viewing distance and line of sight. I could do more earlier when I was confident dd could not open her belts and when we owned a car that could be locked when running. I have had many pedestrian close-calls so I do not see this as a black and white issue. I also tend not to dwell on the 24 hour news channels which I do htink makes a differnce.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *la mamita*
What about an 11 month old who is strapped into his carseat? He physically doesn't have the force to press the button to unbuckle himself out of his seat. There's nothing within his reach (no lighters, no flamethrowers, no matches). I think everyone imagines this situation differently--the number of kids, the safety of the neighborhood, the relative risks of walking outside vs. staying in the car.

And I do agree with you that you can learn something and still mess up and do something stupid later...how many teens have been educated to not drink and drive and then done it themselves? too many









You would leave your 11 mos old with no lighter, matches or flamethrower????? How irresponsible...have you NEVER watched McGyver??? I mean those things could save a life!!!!
I can't believe I'm reading this here!!!


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama*
Well, we're not all intellectually gifted.










Starting with me! If I can remember not to scratch my watch and wind my ass, I count myself ahead for the day.

Quote:

I do think it's all about chances. The chances of something bad happening to your kid are like 1/10,000. But if your kid IS that one, then it's pretty crappy. I mean, I doubt any of the parents involved were like, "Yeah, I'll go in and pick up my oldest at Kindergarten for a quick minute and the other kids might light themselves on fire, but hey, I'll be back out in time, prolly." They probably did it 50 other times and nothing bad happened, so why would it happen this one other random time?
Yeah, that's pretty much my stance on it. Why take the even 1 in 10,000 chance? Hey, SOMEone has to be last in line...and there's no magic halo over my head preventing that person from being _me_.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

[.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire*









Yet it is clear that you have to make choices, and choosing the safest choice every time would probably require that you live like a nutcase.
).

With all due respect, I strongly disagree. Conceding part of your point, no one can always make the safest choice every time. Sometimes we lack knowledge of which choice would be the safest. Sometimes our personal experiences cloud our judgment and feed us false or misleading data, making our assumptions (and therefore the judgments based on them) wrong.

However, I do believe we can make the safER choices MOST of the time. It mostly comes down to a 50/50 either/or proposition:

Locked or unlocked?
Hitchhike or taxi?
Man or woman?
Pay at pump/pay inside?
Take kid/leave kid?
Phone/no phone?
Insurance/No insurance?
Gun safety course/situational reaction?
House alarm/no house alarm?

Sometimes there are situations with conflicting information:

Vax/no-vax?

And then you make the choice for your family based on the best information you can glean.

None of these things, though, need make one a "nutcase."


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amylcd*
If it were 120 degree's I wouldn't be leaving my house.


Wouldn't that be great if we who live in really hot states could all make that decision? Every day? From basically the end of July through the end of September? I'd love to have a catering service who would bring me all my groceries and a gym attached to my house so I wouldn't actually have to go into the four-wheeled oven. I'm sure that's about as practical as saying that I'd never leave the house if it were below zero. Sometimes, you have very little choice.


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## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
You would leave your 11 mos old with no lighter, matches or flamethrower????? How irresponsible...have you NEVER watched McGyver??? I mean those things could save a life!!!!
I can't believe I'm reading this here!!!

I figure his grenade is enough of a toy for one kid...


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## firstkid4me (Nov 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
You would leave your 11 mos old with no lighter, matches or flamethrower????? How irresponsible...have you NEVER watched McGyver??? I mean those things could save a life!!!!
I can't believe I'm reading this here!!!

Maybe she doesn't have the lighter, matches and flamethrower within reach, but she'll leave a q-tip, paper clip, and pumice stone within reach. He'll figure it out


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## firstkid4me (Nov 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
Wouldn't that be great if we who live in really hot states could all make that decision? Every day? From basically the end of July through the end of September? I'd love to have a catering service who would bring me all my groceries and a gym attached to my house so I wouldn't actually have to go into the four-wheeled oven. I'm sure that's about as practical as saying that I'd never leave the house if it were below zero. Sometimes, you have very little choice.

Peapod.com delivers groceries, there's one thing off your list


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## MichaelsSahm (May 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firstkid4me*
Peapod.com delivers groceries, there's one thing off your list









Doesn't deliver in my hot state.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper*
Why is it so hard to accept that different people weigh their risks vs. benefits differently? There are many factors here....temperature, location, age of kid(s), etc..... Each person is going to look at their cards and decide what tips the scale for them. Coming on here to say "I do x,y,or z" is fine. Calling one camp "lazy" and the other "paranoid" is actually against the user agreement (isn't it?).


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## firstkid4me (Nov 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kmisje*
Doesn't deliver in my hot state.

They might be coming, I was shocked when I found out they deliver in Burlington, there's only a population of 10,000.


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## pandora665 (Mar 13, 2006)

As much as I despise hot weather, I would not sacrifice buying groceries at the store just because it was >100 degrees out. I did stay in my house on Sunday when it was ~90 degrees and 90% humidity here given my heat intolerance (while pg). Thankfully, it broke the next day to 82 with lower humidity. I am unable to choose that option when it is gets down to -15 or -25 degrees here, because that generally lasts for 2-4 days at a time before it gets nice and toasty ... up to -10 degrees









I think that those of us in cold states should understand that everyone has weather that they would prefer not to have. For us in colder states, it may be more likely that we could leave a child in the car without the risk of overheating a child.

However, in Madison, WI (not a huge crime-ridden city, but a city nevertheless), I personally haven't observed children in cars without parents, though. That may mean that people are sticking to the 1 minute or less rule, or that they aren't doing it. Regardless, 1 minute or less seems like an acceptable rule to me (that would rule out buying anything for me, b/c I get distracted, but would allow drop off at a slot at the library or video store if less than a 10 foot walk)

Just my opinion,
Erin


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

ok, so a grocery service doesn't deliver to your 'hot state' but we're not talking here about doing a grocery shop, or going to the gym for a workout, or going to work for the day, we're talking about stepping mere feet away from your vehicle--often fewer feet than would be involved in taking them out of their carseat!!!!!!! (holy crap can I emphasize that enough!!!!)

By the sounds of it, the VERY WORST CASE is that during that trip from drivers door to passenger door, someone carjacks your car with your kid in it. Of course, the very worst case of walking to the park is that a stampede of wild elephants will get loose and trample you while you innocently walk to the park...yep, no danger there!!!!!!!! The elephants are BY FAR the most likely scenario!!


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## TranscendentalMom (Jun 28, 2002)

Addressing the "lazy" accusation...everytime I've left my kids in the car its been because dd is asleep. We drive ds to and from preschool every other day and she often falls asleep in the car. Its not laziness, its feeling terrible about having to wake dd AGAIN...the rest of her day is usually terrible if I don't let her get her sleep. She doesn't *transfer* sleeping and she won't go back down for a nap if she's had a short one.


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## MichaelsSahm (May 11, 2006)

I want to apologize however to everyone whom I offended, I re-read some of my replies and I didn't mean to say everyone who leaves their kids in the car are lazy, but it wouldn't be my choice, I live in a big city with lots of crime, and I wouldn't think about leaving my child alone in a car even for a minute.

I am very sorry, never meant to hurt anyone's feelings.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

. Let's get back on topic, leaving kids in cars: OK or not?

I say it is not OK. But I do leave my kids in the car while I carry groceries to the front porch, with both doors open. Then I go back and unstrap the kids and take the kids to the porch. I usher them in the door and then toss the groceries into the front hall. Then I close the door and carry the groceries to the kitchen.

Hey, I guess that's why I usually wait for dh to come home!

I feel the risk of them running out into the street is greater than the risk of someone showing up taking the kids out of the car while I make the fifteen foot trek from driveway to porch.

So I do understand weighing risks.


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## paxye (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *inezyv*
. Let's get back on topic, leaving kids in cars: OK or not?

Like I said in a previous post... I think it really depends on the situation... personally I am not comfortable leaving them alone in the car to pay gas or go to into a store even if I see them the whole time... I wouldn't feel comfortble if I lived in an apartment complex either... (when I lived in, go to the city I would not leave them in the car at all)

The post box that I go to you can drive up to it and the only pay at the pump in my town is WAY out of my way but I rather go there... (or to my garage where I know the owners and they wife will pump the gas for me and entertain the kids while I go in, but I only go there if she is there)

However, I will leave them in the car in my driveway while I run in if I forgot something or to bring groceries in...
Like I said in a pp.... I also don't hesitate leaving them in the car if they have fallen asleep when we go to a friends house... Weather Permitting of course, strapped in their car seats, side door open and keys with me (and even a monitor put in the car to hear when they wake up)... of course my friend lives on a farm in the middle of nowhere.... and I just can't see the danger at all... (no one can come without the dog alerting us)
For those who believe in NEVER.... what do you think about that situation?


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
Yep, you can also teach kids they MUST hold your hand in a parking lot--that doesn't mean they won't break loose. Again, which is more dangerous? *loose toddler in a parking lot or loose toddler in a car where mom can see and react within 30 seconds???*
Having put 6 too many toddlers in body bags, I can say that not one of them had been *left in a car where parents could see*.

That is supervised. My point is that is that it is unsafe for children (not sleeping babies) to be in a car unsupervised. As I've said previously, I do leave my dd in the car to run to outdoor drop-slots, etc.....but I can see her, and am watching her.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Oh, and when my toddler was consistently breaking loose from my hand, I used a toddler harness. But that is another thread altogether







:


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
That is supervised. My point is that is that it is unsafe for children (not sleeping babies) to be in a car unsupervised. As I've said previously, I do leave my dd in the car to run to outdoor drop-slots, etc.....but I can see her, and am watching her.

I think this sums up my comfort level completely. It is okay to leave kids in car if you can see them the entire time, and if you're not too far away to get to them within five seconds in case little Johnny manages to get out of his car seat.


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## 4imprints (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild*
When I was a girl, my mom used to give us a choice to stay in the car or go into the store with her. We virtually always stayed in the car and listened to the radio. My mom wasn't lazy. She knew what we could and could not handle and was respectful of our choices.

This is actually how I was kidnapped. I begged my mom to let me stay in the car because my feet hurt from my new shoes (first day of 8th grade). I also wanted to listen to the radio. She let me - this one time (usually I paid while she pumped). I layed the seat down and closed my eyes when only 2 seconds later the man jumped in the car. I do think that there is an age where kids will make the choice to stay in the car - that is why I don't blame my mom - it was my choice. But at certain ages I think it is absolutely ridiculous to leave a child in the car. A child of 2 or 3 or 4 who is intelligent and capable enough to open a door or to put the car into neutral should never be left unattended in a car. Let alone "because they are sleeping". I would rather wake my son up to bring him into the store than leave him in the car - he can always fall back asleep in the car but I would never get him back if something happened to him.

And I really don't understand the argument that a child is more likely to run away in the parking lot and get hit by a car than to be kidnapped. I manage to get my children in the store without that happening - maybe that's just me.

And yes - in most large stores you have to actually walk to the front door meaning that some risks tend to be risks that must be taken (walking through a parking lot) whereas others don't "have" to be taken. You don't "have" to leave your child in the car. That was all I meant by that.

I mean - would you leave a loaded gun in your bedroom closet where you feel your cild could never reach it or could never find it? I wouldn't because the risk is all to real. I feel the same way about leaving a child (especially a younger child) in the car. The risks are all too real and very avoidable.

Thats all this is about - not weather or not there are risks somewhere else - but making the choice to not purposely putting your child at risk for something that is clearly avoidable.


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## 4imprints (Jun 29, 2005)

I wanted to point out that there is a major difference between leaving your child in the car to go knock on someones door or to drop a movie in a drop slot than actually going shopping!!! The latter is ridiculous to me. I drop movies off and I knock on my friends door (like if I"m going to pick someone up). I can't comprehend actually going into a store where I am knowingly placing a barrier between me and my child (door? wall?). The fasted way from point A to point B is a straight line. There is not one single store that allows me the fastest way to get to my child shoud something happen. And I still can't think of a store where I can get in and out in 2 min. Just standing in line takes 10 min. for me - and that's just at Walgreens or the gas station.
I'm begining to wonder where ya'll live? Seriously - makes me wonder if its too crowded in my town!


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

I don't think anyone is advocated shopping nad leaving the child in the car, I'm certainly not!!
When I got flipped out on, I pulled my truck up to the curb in front of the OUTDOOR ATM I was closer to her car seat at the ATM than I would have been while walking around the truck to get her out. The truck was running with the heat on, but I had the keys, we have a remote starter so I started it and then locked it down--even if someone could get in, once they tried to get it in gear it would have stalled out on them. What would you think abotu that sort of situation.


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
I don't think anyone is advocated shopping nad leaving the child in the car, I'm certainly not!!
When I got flipped out on, I pulled my truck up to the curb in front of the OUTDOOR ATM I was closer to her car seat at the ATM than I would have been while walking around the truck to get her out. The truck was running with the heat on, but I had the keys, we have a remote starter so I started it and then locked it down--even if someone could get in, once they tried to get it in gear it would have stalled out on them. What would you think abotu that sort of situation.

I remember that thread! Wasn't Havoc in there with her?

Anyway, I've done that very thing before. Left the kids in the locked car at an ATM that was less than 10 feet from my car. I've also left them in the car in our garage if I've forgotten something in the house. (With the car turned off.) If it was very hot out, of course I would have enough sense to not leave them in the car. This is a topic that I think varies greatly depending on where you live. I live in a rural-ish area with an extremely low crime rate. I'm going to ask my mom what she thinks of this. She's a 30 year CPS supervisor.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Ok, back to the topic at hand. What if instead of a car, you had a pirate ship? What then? What if all the other pirates were ashore, doing a bit of light looting and whatnot - could you safely leave your booty on board with the lasses and laddies who were not of looting age? What if a bigger pirate ship came along...or what if one of the kiddies accidentally set off the powder kegs? Or walked off the plank? I mean, it's just a rat's nest of problems, argh.

I mean, let's keep some perspective here. A pirate ship is obviously much more dangerous than a car, and IMHO, vastly underrepresented in public service campaigns regarding children and transportation.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Thread re-opened. Please mind the User Agreement while posting.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama*
Ok, back to the topic at hand. What if instead of a car, you had a pirate ship? What then? What if all the other pirates were ashore, doing a bit of light looting and whatnot - could you safely leave your booty on board with the lasses and laddies who were not of looting age? What if a bigger pirate ship came along...or what if one of the kiddies accidentally set off the powder kegs? Or walked off the plank? I mean, it's just a rat's nest of problems, argh.

I mean, let's keep some perspective here. A pirate ship is obviously much more dangerous than a car, and IMHO, vastly underrepresented in public service campaigns regarding children and transportation.

What on earth does this have to do with the conversation at hand??? I honestly don't think I've ever seen such an uneven argument!!

The point that MANY are making is that in many instances, depending on the situation at hand and where you live (I woudln't leave my child in new york--but then nor would I ever live there as I feel it's not safe enough) you are exposing your child to equal or greater dangers (as in real dangers that happen all the time--like being hit by a car in a parking lot). Those are the risks that every parent has to decide for themselves if it's worth taking those risks. I choose to risk driving but I would never, ever, ever, ever choose to risk driving my child witout a well installed carseat.

At least here, we don't have a whole of pirates, so I have NO idea what I'd do about that.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
I don't think anyone is advocated shopping nad leaving the child in the car, I'm certainly not!!
.

That was my understanding of the OP:

"Many parents I know in town (including me) have left kids in the car while running into a store for just a minute." (post #1)

That is also the implication of the title (unattended).

I am uncomfortable with that, because I feel the car itself is an unsafe environment for a mobile, unsupervised child.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I think flyingspaghetti is trying to insert humor. I hope!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
Wouldn't that be great if we who live in really hot states could all make that decision? Every day? From basically the end of July through the end of September?

Honestly - I'd leave. I couldn't live in that kind of heat. I've known plenty of people who have left Vancouver because they hate the rainfall. There are some climates and some people that are basically incompatible.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
That was my understanding of the OP:

"Many parents I know in town (including me) have left kids in the car while running into a store for just a minute." (post #1)


In my case at least, the store I've done this with twice, is really no different than a drop slot. I only do it if I can park directly in front of the door, and the door is open. I have actually walked to the milk backwards, so that I can watch the car (okay - people think I'm weird - so be it). Then, while I'm at the counter, I'm in a direct line with my car, and can see my car the whole time. I'd be at the vehicle in less than 10 seconds if something happened (such as dd getting out of her seat).

I forgot - I also leave ds2 in the car at the grocery store, while I grab a buggy. Sometimes, dd comes wiht me, sometimes she waits with ds2. Again...I park right near the buggy rack (closest available space) and come right back to the car. If I'm carrying ds2 and holding dd's hand, there's just too much chance that she'll break loose. She doesn't want to hold my hand, and she's _usually_ okay about staying with me, but not always.


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## MichaelsSahm (May 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4imprints*
Just standing in line takes 10 min. for me - and that's just at Walgreens or the gas station.
I'm begining to wonder where ya'll live? Seriously - makes me wonder if its too crowded in my town!

Sounds like our walgreens. I live in Phoenix, AZ. Very crowded.
I wouldn't leave a child here in a car alone, but that is more because this city has more crime then small towns.


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## Elizabeth0506 (May 28, 2006)

Personally I think it is a terrible idea. It only takes a minute for a stranger in your "safe" town to steal your child. Sure the doors are locked and you are only gone for a minute, but if someone wants your child they can take them faster then you think. Can you really see your car the whole time you are in the store? It only takes a minute to get the kids in and out.


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Elizabeth0506*
Can you really see your car the whole time you are in the store? It only takes a minute to get the kids in and out.

Yes, but I've never gone in a store. Just to a walk-up ATM. There are convenience stores here that I could go in and see the kids the whnole time. I just never have. I wouldn't think anything about kids left in cars in these places around here. Now a child in the car alone at a supermarket or Walmart is totally different.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4imprints*
And I still can't think of a store where I can get in and out in 2 min. Just standing in line takes 10 min. for me -

Well, I have sat in the car and waited until there was nobody else in the store, so I wouldn't have to wait in line...


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## mommytolittlelilly (Jul 7, 2004)

No, I would definitely *not* leave my daughter in the car unattended. I always bring her with me, even if she's sleeping, or even if it's just for a minute. I agree with the person who mentioned the barrier (wall/window) betw you and child - I just would not be comfortable with that at all, even if I was in a "small town."

As an aside, I felt more creeped out by the people in the one small town I lived in for a summer (pre-baby) than I have ever been in any city.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I think it's hilarious that this thread is 8 pages long, and that there are other huge threads on this subject in the archives.

I mean, really, how long can we talk about this subject?


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## mommytolittlelilly (Jul 7, 2004)

(that's me)

It's a very fascinating topic.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
I think it's hilarious that this thread is 8 pages long, and that there are other huge threads on this subject in the archives.

I mean, really, how long can we talk about this subject?

Oh, thismama, do you really want to know the answer to that? (Please say no) It kills me that people get so self-righteous about it, when I mean, come on, is anyone on MDC some sort of _bad mother_? Highly doubtful.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
I think flyingspaghetti is trying to insert humor. I hope!









Well, at least someone gets it.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
By the sounds of it, the VERY WORST CASE is that during that trip from drivers door to passenger door, someone carjacks your car with your kid in it. Of course, the very worst case of walking to the park is that a stampede of wild elephants will get loose and trample you while you innocently walk to the park...yep, no danger there!!!!!!!! The elephants are BY FAR the most likely scenario!!

Where on earth do you live that elephant stampedes are more likely than carjackings?









Carjackings are an all too common occurrence around here, and they take seconds to complete.

And, really, I haven't seen anyone get "self-righteous" on this thread.








Well... yet.


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper*
Why is it so hard to accept that different people weigh their risks vs. benefits differently? There are many factors here....temperature, location, age of kid(s), etc..... Each person is going to look at their cards and decide what tips the scale for them. Coming on here to say "I do x,y,or z" is fine. Calling one camp "lazy" and the other "paranoid" is actually against the user agreement (isn't it?).









:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
I think it's hilarious that this thread is 8 pages long, and that there are other huge threads on this subject in the archives.

I mean, really, how long can we talk about this subject?









:


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## 4imprints (Jun 29, 2005)

Ok - simply out of curiosity - I wonder if someone would time themselves. For example, measure 8 feet inside your front door and 10 outside of your door and get someone to time you how long it would take you to run from inside to outside your home. Then get someone to time how long it would take you to run 18 feet on the street - without barriers. I really am curious - wondering if the argument holds - logic says it will - but just wondering.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4imprints*
This is actually how I was kidnapped. I begged my mom to let me stay in the car because my feet hurt from my new shoes (first day of 8th grade). I also wanted to listen to the radio. She let me - this one time (usually I paid while she pumped). I layed the seat down and closed my eyes when only 2 seconds later the man jumped in the car. I do think that there is an age where kids will make the choice to stay in the car - that is why I don't blame my mom - it was my choice. But at certain ages I think it is absolutely ridiculous to leave a child in the car.

I'm terribly sorry for what happened to you. I don't believe, though, that because this happened to you in this way that it's a very large risk in the vast majority of the cases. These tragedies happen in many places. A girl from my 5th grade class was kidnapped from her bed. A woman from my college was attacked on her front porch. A woman from my grad school was attacked in dorm room. Someday my Dd will walk the few blocks to her school. Being in your bed, on your porch, in your yard, walking to school, there are risks involved. The risks are minimal, but they exist. We can't stop living. We can't control for everything. Personally, I'm very careful about all of these things and supervise my Dd 100 percent in the bathtub and the backyard, for example, but there are risks that I do take, such as kayaking and long walks in the rain. We assess our risks and make our choices. After what happened to you, I can't imagine you leaving your child alone in a car ever. It makes sense to me, but I can easily see someone leaving their child in a locked car for a few minutes when they're in sight. It's less risky than the walk to the door of the store in most parking lots.


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## 4imprints (Jun 29, 2005)

Why do you chose to surpervise your children in the bath tub? Because someone's child drowned? Because you've heard "too many stories"? This is the same thing - even if it didn't happen to me I wouldn't leave my children in the car because I've heard it all too often.

Why do you look both ways when crossing the street?
Why do you have a house alarms?
Why do you lock your doors?
Why do you wear a seatbelt?
Why do you have your children where a helmet on their bike?
Why do you use a car seat?
Why do you do most of the things in your life.....

because of risks. Exactly what you said. You look at the risks and you act accordingly - IMO - chosing to leave your child in the car which is a risk is not acting accordingly. I mean seriously - so you're responsible enough to restrain them in a proper carseat but not responsible enough to not leave them alone where they are defenseless? That is what bothers me - the arguments - they just don't add up or at least I can't see how they add up. I mean if I felt it was OK to leave my child in an unattended car I don't see why I would worry about protecting them at all? Does that make sense. Now - obviously I'm not calling the mothers that do irrisponsible - its just that I don't see the logic in that arugment. They obviously have very good reason because I don't believe anyone on here would "intentionaly" cause harm to their child -but do you see the connection I'm making?

And about the kayaking - there are ways to still take all precautions when doing sports - helmets, vests, etc. I feel the same thinking should apply to cars - seatbelts, no loose heavy objects, not leaving a child unattended - and then the same thing applies to our houses - not leaving chemicals on the bottom shelf, covering outlets, keeping knives and scissors out of reach, supervising in the bathtub.

I don't leave my children in the car - but not because of what happened to me - because I try my hardest to minimize the risks in my childs life.

Sorry for the response - again - I just wanted it clear that my choices aren't "just because of what happened to me".


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Here's the difference to me.

When I supervise my dd in the tub, I can't think of anything that puts her at risk by supervising her.
When I put her in a carseat, there is nothing that comes to mind to tell me she *may* be safer where she is.
When I change my smoke alarm battery, I don't wonder if putting in a new one is it's own safety hazzard.

When I take my child out of the car for less than a minute, the risks for me are almost equal.
My child could get away from me and be hit.
My child could be hit in the parking lot.
My child could be hit while in my arms.
My child and I could get held up at the ATM and hurt.
If someone wants to steal my child...is it easier to snatch her away from my ever strong hand as I hold her's or is easier to circumvent the locks on my truck, get through 100 lbs of dog who is trained to bite and will instantly lay down his life for that baby and then...after all that....unbuckle her from her carseat. All this while not catching the attention of any locals from my town that make it their business to know everyone and everything about them and feel obliged to protect their own???

For me, I weigh my risks. Car jacking doesn't really happen here--and they sure as hell arent' going to pick my vehicle--especially when 50% of the cars in the parking lot have keys in the ignition. Pedestrians getting hit by vehicles though, that happens all the time. For me, I analize my risks and decide which ones I can live with. Will it kill me if something happens to her--damn right!! But it will kill me if she gets hit by a car in the parking lot because I took her with me. It will kill me if we're in an accident and the backseat is demolished---even though all the risk analists told me she was safest back there.


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## TranscendentalMom (Jun 28, 2002)

On the www.kidsincars.org site - did anyone notice any stories where kids were kidnapped or cars stolen when the car was locked? All the ones I read the car was either running or unlocked.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4imprints*
Why do you do most of the things in your life.....

because of risks. Exactly what you said. You look at the risks and you act accordingly - IMO - chosing to leave your child in the car which is a risk is not acting accordingly. I mean seriously - so you're responsible enough to restrain them in a proper carseat but not responsible enough to not leave them alone where they are defenseless? That is what bothers me - the arguments - they just don't add up or at least I can't see how they add up. I mean if I felt it was OK to leave my child in an unattended car I don't see why I would worry about protecting them at all? Does that make sense. Now - obviously I'm not calling the mothers that do irrisponsible - its just that I don't see the logic in that arugment. They obviously have very good reason because I don't believe anyone on here would "intentionaly" cause harm to their child -but do you see the connection I'm making?

]You believe that it is always safer to bring your child inside with you. My point is that this isn't always the case. Sometimes it is just as safe or safer to leave them in the car. On this point, we simply disagree.


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## MichaelsSahm (May 11, 2006)

I think after reading everyone's reponses, that my advice is, you do what is best for your child and your family, and I'll do what is best for mine.
I do understand where everyone is coming from.

I think everyday life is a risk, but as long as we all do what we feel is right for our family, then that is all that matters.


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## Strong Mama (Feb 7, 2006)

My older son used to stay in the car by himself when he was 4 years old ONLY when going into a small convenience store where i could see him, and the doors locked(keys with me) I live in a super small town where everyone knows everyone and the wait in line was zilch (honestly!) and i never once felt bad about it. It depends on a lot of things. Also, may i say that i live in europe where kids are in the car a LOT of the time...i mean i say this from babies, to older ones while their parents grocery shop. i see this a lot here, and nobody thinks twice about it.







:


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

4imprints/Sara....I remember you posting about your horrific experience in a past thread like this and I want you to know I am amazed at your strength and I appreciate your willingness to post about what happened to you. Complacency runs rampant until one finds themselves in *the* situation that always happens to "other people". Continued peace, health, and happiness to you.

DC


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4imprints*
Why do you chose to surpervise your children in the bath tub? Because someone's child drowned? Because you've heard "too many stories"?

Not in my case. I supervise my children in the bath, because I know myself how easy it is to slip in the tub. I've done it many times. DS2 slipped and went down flat on his back with me _holding_ him not two weeks ago. There's no way I'd leave a small child unattended in a bathtub, as I believe, from my own experience, that a bathtub is one of the most dangerous locations in any house.

Quote:

I mean seriously - so you're responsible enough to restrain them in a proper carseat but not responsible enough to not leave them alone where they are defenseless? That is what bothers me - the arguments - they just don't add up or at least I can't see how they add up. I mean if I felt it was OK to leave my child in an unattended car I don't see why I would worry about protecting them at all?
I don't feel that I'm leaving them unattended. Am I leaving them in the car unattended if they're strapped in their seats, and I'm at the back with the liftgate up, loading up groceries? Are they unattended if they're in their carseats, and I'm standing beside the car, talking to a neighbour? Are they unattended if they're in their carseats and I"m standing 10 feet away, looking at the car, talking to a neighbour? 20 feet? This isn't about thinking it's okay to leave them unattended, imo...it's about where we draw the line on defining "unattended". Plus, as Shannon says, there's the balancing of other risks. I feel that my kids are safer if they're strapped in a carseat than they are if I'm taking them with me to get a buggy. There's no physical way that I can be pushing the buggy in (or pulling it out), holding ds2 and holding dd's hand. The possibility that dd may wander into parking lot traffic scares me more than the possibility of someone getting one or both of them out of their carseat in the <1 minute that it takes me to put the buggy back (or get the buggy in the first place).


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
I don't feel that I'm leaving them unattended. Am I leaving them in the car unattended if they're strapped in their seats, and I'm at the back with the liftgate up, loading up groceries? Are they unattended if they're in their carseats, and I'm standing beside the car, talking to a neighbour? Are they unattended if they're in their carseats and I"m standing 10 feet away, looking at the car, talking to a neighbour? 20 feet? This isn't about thinking it's okay to leave them unattended, imo...it's about where we draw the line on defining "unattended". Plus, as Shannon says, there's the balancing of other risks. I feel that my kids are safer if they're strapped in a carseat than they are if I'm taking them with me to get a buggy. There's no physical way that I can be pushing the buggy in (or pulling it out), holding ds2 and holding dd's hand. The possibility that dd may wander into parking lot traffic scares me more than the possibility of someone getting one or both of them out of their carseat in the <1 minute that it takes me to put the buggy back (or get the buggy in the first place).

Well put.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

The only situation in which I leave my child alone in the car is when I am loading or unloading many or heavy objects between car and house AND there is nobody available to help me. For example, when we come home from the grocery store, I leave him strapped into his carseat while I carry the groceries into the house--not into the kitchen, just inside the front door--and then I go out and get him. The car is parked in the street (if I can't find a space very close to our house, I double-park while unloading, then park the car properly before unstrapping EnviroBaby) but our front yard is only 7 feet deep; the only time I can't see the car is when my back is turned to unlock the door and set down the groceries.

Why do I do this? Because I believe he is much more at risk being let loose in the house while I go back and forth to the car, than being strapped into his seat. The times when I've brought him into the house first, since he learned to crawl, he's come over to the door to watch me return to the car, which means that when I return carrying heavy objects he's underfoot; it was because of several incidents of almost dropping things on him and one incident of actually tripping over him (which bruised his face and threw out my back) and one of the storm-door closing on his hand because I couldn't catch it, that I decided it's safer to leave him in the car.

Typically when I'm doing this, the car doors are locked but the trunk is open. Sometimes I have cargo on the front seat or floor of the back seat as well, in which case doors may be open. The keys always are with me. Thus the car can't be stolen. It would be very, very difficult to get EnviroBaby unstrapped and maneuvered out of the car (it's a compact; you have to rotate him at an awkward angle to lift him out the door) before I'd notice. The fact that child abductions by strangers are extremely rare also makes me feel that the risk to my child is low. Not nonexistent, low.

4imprints wrote:

Quote:

I mean if I felt it was OK to leave my child in an unattended car I don't see why I would worry about protecting them at all? Does that make sense.
No. If you assess the risks and decide they are low enough compared to the benefits, you might well decide one thing is OK while still protecting your child in other ways. I mean, YOU LET YOUR CHILD RIDE IN A CAR EVEN THOUGH CAR ACCIDENTS ARE A LEADING CAUSE OF DEATH AND INJURIES IN CHILDREN. Every time you put your child in a car, no matter how well restrained and supervised, you are taking a risk. Does that mean you don't bother protecting your child at all??


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## boodafli (May 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
You would leave your 11 mos old with no lighter, matches or flamethrower????? How irresponsible...have you NEVER watched McGyver??? I mean those things could save a life!!!!
I can't believe I'm reading this here!!!


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