# Is it true that CIO babies sleep through the night better?



## gorgorita (Feb 5, 2008)

What I wonder is that all my friend's babies who sleep in their crib from day 1 and in their own room from month 3 at the latest, do sleep better.
I cosleep with DD and now, when she is almost 9 mo, I kinda want her wake up less in the night but she feeds very 2-3 hours 24/7. My first thought was that might be because I EBF her but then my only friend who cosleep w/her DS started him on solids at 5 mo and by 9 mo he was eating 4 times a day plus breast milk. Still, he wakes up every 2 hours to eat during the night (he is 14 mo now).
All my other friends, on the other hand, never co-slept and their babies sleep throught the night.
I am always asked that stupid question about my baby being good and if she started to sleep on her own all night. I answer honestly that yes, my baby is the best and no, she's not sleeping through the night. And then I ask myself if I did the right sleeping arrangment decision.
Almost everyone I know, try to "discipline" their children to sleep, eat at particular time. Me, is just trying to go with the flow.
Am I making my life more difficult?
BTW, not necessarily people use CIO when putting the baby to sleep.
Is co-sleeping 's that better for babies?


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## Bromache (Jan 24, 2008)

Well, at least in my opinion, sleeping "well" is really more about the individual baby and his/her personality and sleep patterns than _where_ they sleep. That being said, co-sleeping babies are probably more likely to wake and expect nursing or some other form of help back to sleep because they are used to our presence and nighttime parenting as opposed to separate room sleepers, so it may appear that they don't sleep as well. But I'd be willing to bet that the separate room sleepers had to "learn" to put themselves back to sleep, which may have been traumatic and involved crying but was missed by the sleeping parents in the other room. (Or, worse, was purposely forced on them.) So, who knows?

For me personally, though the nights can be very hard (I was awake with my son for four hours last night -- ugh!), I still prefer to promote my secure attachment to him by always being there for him in the night. It just seems like part of my responsibility of being what I consider a good parent. I know how hard it is sometimes when you hear about other babies STTN -- I feel it too at times -- but it's still worth it to me. Just an anecdotal experience of mine: my friend did CIO with her baby at about seven or eight months. He STILL wakes up in the night needing her (but now she has to get all the way up and go to his room) and, at close to a year, is very, very anxious when she even leaves the room. I noticed this several times yesterday during a visit -- he would just scream if she went out of sight. All I could think was "Poor thing! He has so much stress now and I bet it's no coincidence that she did CIO." Of course, I didn't say anything, but it bothers me to see a kid with separation anxiety of that intensity and I can't help but see a correlation.







Not to say this is true for everybody, but just an example that makes me glad I'm doing it my way.

They're only babies for a short time in the end. Keep doing what YOU think is best and try not to get hung up on that whole "good babies STTN" crap.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Well.... are you *sure* their babies are STTN? Or do they just not hear them or respond to them?

Both of mine have STTN *sometimes* from day one. Both have only slept with me.

-Angela


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Just going to start by saying this is my opinion and I have no studies to back it up.

Babies that are left to CIO (in my opinion) are not just being asked to learn how to self sooth, but being asked to learn to ignore when they are hungry. A very bad habit for someone of any age to get into is learning to eat when not hungry or not eat when hungry. Both of which can screw up metabolism. Babies who co-sleep and are fed when they wake up hungry will in most circumstances take longer to learn to sleep through the night consistently because they are listening to their own needs. Think about it, the stomach is the size of a persons closed fist. If you had a stomach as small as you baby's then you'd be more likely to get hungry in the middle of the night too.

Also along the lines of what Angela said, I was reading an article by a woman who started out using the Ezzo-Babywise method. She recounted one incident where they had guests spend the night. They heard the baby wake up and cry but she slept through it because she had trained herself not to hear her child cry in the middle of the night.


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## closedaccount15 (Dec 25, 2007)

I honestly think there is such pressure for parents to attain the goal of STTN that many, _not all_, but many don't exactly tell the truth. I know I lie just so I don't have to hear people give me advice on why babies have to CIO in order to learn to sleep.

DD goes through phases, the past 2 months, up every 2 hours. And then the past 3 nights - she woke up once. She STTN for about a month when she was around 4 months old, but hasn't done it since. I think it's the personality of the child. DD goes back and forth sleeping with us or in the crib, she mostly starts the night in the crib, but sometimes doesn't. Honestly, she sleeps the same number of hours in the crib as she does in bed with us before she wakes up. If she wakes every 2 hours in the crib, she does it when she sleeps with us, too. If she goes 6 hours without waking in the bed with us, she will do the same in the crib the next night.


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## Violet2 (Apr 26, 2007)

BF babies tend to be up more at night and tend not to STTN according to the nursing books I've read. I have found that to be true. Probably has something to do with how easily BM is digested and keeping up supply.

Also, as babies get older it becomes a habit ime. DD was on formula at 8 mos and she still woke up to eat even though she wasn't actually hungry (wouldn't take the bottle) and we finally just let her fuss through that (with us right there with her) until eventually she stopped waking (but we were sure that she was well fed and not hungry). So it can become habitual. Possibly once you start solids and are sure that baby is getting adequate intake during the day you could consider night weaning-- ime if they are really hungry they don't go back to sleep no matter what you do, so it's relatively easy to figure out when they are hungry.

Lastly, I found dreamfeeds helped a lot in extending the amount of sleep I got before I had to wake up. The only thing was, sometimes DD wouldn't nurse. Then again, we always had issues with nursing refusal from 6 months on which is why we aren't nursing now so that may have been DD.

DD now sleeps through the night about 80% of the time. So there is hope. It does get better at some point!

V


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## aprons_and_acorns (Sep 28, 2004)

I don't usually post in this forum but I saw the thread title on the front page and wanted to respond to it. We have never done CIO and my son pretty much slept through the night from very, very early infancy. By 8 weeks old he slept 6 hours straight, woke up to nurse and then slept another 2-3 hours, every single night. So I would agree that there is a lot to be said for the individual needs and personality of the child rather than just that CIO babies are better or earlier at STTN. Just my two cents/


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

I dunno, but my guess is their parents sleep better that way. Me, I can't sleep if my babies aren't right there where I can hear them breath. And I'm including my four year old when i use the phrase "my babies".


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## Otterella (Oct 13, 2007)

IMO, the real fallacy here is thinking that sleeping "more" and sleeping "longer" equal sleeping "better". Sure, it may be more convenient for the parents for baby to sleep for 8-12 hours straight, but that's not the same as "better" for the baby. Babies wake as often as they do because they have biological needs. So the natural waking pattern really is better for baby, even if its inconvenient for parents.

I learned early on when people asked how he's sleeping, just to say something like "We're all sleeping the way we're supposed to." And when his pedi would ask (at around 12-15 months, when he was still waking 4+ times a night) if he's sleeping through the night yet, I'd just say "Well, _I'm_ sleeping through the night. I don't think he is. He gets what he needs without waking me." I could tell she didn't approve, but had no response for a confident answer like that. He started sleeping through the night at around 20 months, and I wouldn't have had him do it a day earlier than he did, because that's what was right for him.


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## Greenmama2AJ (Jan 10, 2008)

You can definetely train a baby to STTN through making them CIO.

But that doesn't make it a good thing to do.
Babies who are left to CIO learn that their parents wont come when they cry at night. They learn to cope, but at what price? Babies cry because thousands of years of evolution has conditioned babies to know they are meant to be near their family when they sleep. I think CIO breaks a little bit of a baby's spirit.

Babies do learn to STTN their night all on their own - and truly, they can be totally happy and healthy _without_ STTN too.
Cosleeping is definetely better for your baby imo - keep going with flow mama


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

better for whom? for the parents?
STTN doesn't always mean a better sleep for a baby. Sometimes their health, emotional well-being and even survival depend on their waking up through the night.


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## bscal (Feb 13, 2006)

I'm quite ashamed to admit this here... but we attempted CIO with my oldest child when she turned 1. She'll be 6 in December and tends to wake up around 2 or 3 am at least 3 nights per week and crawl in bed with us. Luckily she's old enough that I could teach her that Mommy and Daddy need a good night's sleep so she can sleep with us as long as she is quiet and doesn't wake us up - unless there is an emergency, which of course then she can wake us. My other 2 kids have coslept with us... to varying degrees. My middle child does not do well when sleeping in a room with anyone. To the point that I started putting her into the pack n play next to our bed at 4 mos and moved her into the crib in the nursery next door at 6 mos. Yes, she still woke to nurse twice in the night... I had the monitor on my nightstand turned up pretty loud so as soon as she started to make noise I could go and get her. I'd sit up and nurse her and put her back in her crib. My son is 19 mos and still sleeps in our room in the pnp. He has slept through the night (defined by my ped as 6 hours, btw) since around 6 mos.

It totally depends on the child as to when they sleep through the night. IMO, do what you feel works best for your family and your LO.

HTH,
Beth


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## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

We have 7 week old DS in a cosleeper and occasionally bring him into bed too. He usually sleeps for good 5-6 hour stretches, and has since birth (when he was a few days old he slept 7 hours straight! I actually had to wake him up to nurse. He was fine though, just really hungry) I think it's just his nature, and maybe he'll stay this way maybe he won't. But I do think the baby's personality has a lot to do with it.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

My girls slept fine through the night co-sleeping with me and never CIO. They probably sleep better for your friends because their exhausted from crying so much. My girls slept just fine when they were babes and it wasn't especially difficult to move them to their own cribs later.


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## aja-belly (Oct 7, 2004)

cio does not teach babies to sttn. it just teaches them that if they wake up - no point in crying about it because nobody cares. rather than sleeping through the night they are just not bothering mom and dad through the night.


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## MamaJenese (Aug 14, 2006)

My two are night and day with the whole sleep thing, So IMO personality has tons to do with it. DS woke up every two hours to nurse until one day at 14 months slept through the night and has every night since then. Of course he will not even consider sleeping any where other than right between me and DH. He is now three. DD on the other hand has been sleeping form 7 pm to 11 PM in the Crib side carred next to our bed. waking up to nurse at 11PM and back down until 6 AM since just a few weeks old. She want nothing to do with sleeping in the bed with me. She nurses and then crawls back over to the crib on her own and passes out. I barley wake. I did nothing different they just are who they are.


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## KimPM (Nov 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lillymonster* 
*I think it's the personality of the child.* DD goes back and forth sleeping with us or in the crib, she mostly starts the night in the crib, but sometimes doesn't. Honestly, she sleeps the same number of hours in the crib as she does in bed with us before she wakes up. If she wakes every 2 hours in the crib, she does it when she sleeps with us, too. If she goes 6 hours without waking in the bed with us, she will do the same in the crib the next night.

Thanks for this post! I think you have nailed the right answer here! There aren't many parents whose child sleeps 50/50 this way, so you have some valuable insight.


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## BeanyMama (Jul 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aja-belly* 
cio does not teach babies to sttn. it just teaches them that if they wake up - no point in crying about it because nobody cares. rather than sleeping through the night they are just not bothering mom and dad through the night.

this.

i can see cio babies being quiet through night longer, sure. what a sad, heavy cost for it


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## cotopaxi (Sep 17, 2007)

No, I don't think they necessarily do. This is all anecdotal, but my $0.02:

We did Pantley's No Cry Sleep Solution, and my dd does sleep in her crib, not with us (so I rarely post on this forum). However, I wore her for all her naps until she didn't want/need me to anymore (at 4-8 months - she started taking some naps in her crib at 4 months, and by 8 months strongly preferred it), and her crib was sidecarred to our bed until 6 months, when she started to be okay with sleeping in another room from us. If she cries at any point during the night I always go to her. So I did "sleep train" her I guess, but very gently and gradually, absolutely never leaving her to cry even for a minute (not counting if I was in the bathroom when she started fussing, lol). I feel like in the long run this has built up positive associations with sleep and with her crib. My CIO friends are often amazed when they see me put her down for a nap - they're like "You can just hand her her blankie and put her in the crib? She doesn't cry AT ALL?"

I have about 5 friends with children the same age or a little older than mine irl that we see often. ALL of them used CIO. Most of them report that their children sleep worse than mine do currently; mine has slept the most hours per day of any of the kids for the given age group since about 6 months. Many of them still report lots of crying while going to sleep or during the night.

One set of friends has said (they have a 3-year-old and a 1-year-old) that "no one has ever gone to sleep in this house without some crying."

Another set of friends recently mentioned that they had houseguests for the past 2 weeks, so they didn't let their two-year-old CIO so as not to disturb the houseguests, and as a result, their dd didn't STTN once in those weeks.

To me that says that CIO didn't really work for either of these sets of parents, like the books say it should, their kids shouldn't be waking up crying years after starting (they all started at 4 months), right?


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## just_lily (Feb 29, 2008)

Maybe it is a percentages thing. I would be willing to wager that *most* North American parents use some kind of CIO. Fewer don't use CIO. So although it seems that more CIO babies STTN, the same (ish) percentage of CIO babies and non-CIO babies STTN.

For what it is worth, our babe sleeps about 90% of the time in a Pack N Play next to our bed, and 10% of the time in bed with us (my DF is nervous about having her in our bed because he is convinced he is going to crush her... but when she is really fussy I bring her in). At around two months she started to sleep 5 to 6 hours, wake up to eat, then sleep for another 4 or 5. Two weeks ago she started to STTN entirely of her own volition.

I have never done any kind of CIO. I am helping her learn to fall asleep on her own though, and try to put her to bed when she is tired, but not asleep. For naps it is kind of reverse-CIO... when she starts to fuss and whine I know she is tired, so I put her in her pack n play, she immediately stops crying and falls asleep.

For the most part, I don't think it has anything to do with me. I didn't do any magical parenting in her first two months to make her a good sleeper. She is just blessed that way.

I am also quite sure that she isn't waking up in the night without my knowledge. I wake up to her going "eh eh eh eh" in the morning, long before she lets out an actual wail.


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## Freefromitall (Sep 15, 2008)

I think it depends more on the baby.
DD sleeps like a rock and always has. She STTN anywhere we put her.
Our bed, her crib, her toddler bed....she doesn't care. She's going to pass out and be out for the night.
DS on the other hand, could not sleep with us. I know, some are rolling their eyes and going "Whatever" but he really did fall asleep more quickly and for a longer time if I put him down all drowsy, but still awake, all swaddled and nestled into his infant seat. I have no idea why. It was just what he preferred. And he was never a CIO. Since his seat was right next to the bed, I'm about 99.99% sure I never missed a whimper, so it wasn't a matter of my just not noticing or anything like that.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Well if you where to yell and scream for help that never came eventually you would probably give up and go to sleep because you didnt have any other choice to. So IMO they dont sleep better they just do it because they have no other choice.


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## YesandNo (Mar 16, 2008)

CIO is not something you'll find anyone advocating here...... it is actually a violation of the UA here to do so. Post this at another board and you are likely to get very different answers.

I'm not for CIO, never tried it and don't want to. But, yes, I do believe CIO "works" for many families, in that it achieves its goal of STTN.


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## gorgorita (Feb 5, 2008)

Just finished reading all the replies. Thanks all for so many insights!
I am not for CIO, I only wanted to see if my observations are correct. The last 3 days I am trying to put my DD to sleep in her crib sidecarred to our bed (before she was sleeping in our bed). Let me tell, the only one who has trouble sleeping is me - I miss her and when she wakes for feeding, I take her to bed with us. So, it's more me training myself and so far, with no luck









I don't care if it's not recommended to co-sleep and how difficult it'd be to move her to her own bed one day, this is the only way we are going to sleep.


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## camelfam (Jul 31, 2008)

I was watching my nephew who is 16 months while my SIL was in the hospital having my other nephew. He is a product of Babywise parenting and has been sleeping through the night for a long time. He did however wake up several times throughout the night but every time he woke up he pushed the button on some machine hung up in his crib that makes soothing nighttime noises. It was kind of weird actually. They have three floors and I put my daughter to sleep on the futon on the third floor where I was going to eventually go to sleep for the night and I was watching TV in the master bedroom. I had the monitor on the third floor so I could hear my daughter since I was on the floor my nephew was on. My daughter (who is 6 months older than my nephew) started bawling because she woke up and Mommy wasn't there then fell off the futon, so I went up to comfort her. She was not going to settle easily so I decided to turn in for the night but I wanted to make sure to move the monitor into my nephew's room so I could hear him if he cried. Well I have my daughter screaming and I tried to quiet her so I could put the monitor in his room, but is just wasn't happening. I opened to the door to his room and the hallway light was glaring in his eyes and my daughter was screaming...and I walk in and he sits up, pushes his button and lays back down. I was totally expecting him to flip out and start sobbing. But he just pushed his happy button and was all better. Several other times through the night I heard that machine go on and I knew that he woke up and was putting himself back to sleep.

Where am I going with this? I just kind of find it freaky that he is depending on a machine to put himself back to sleep. I guess some people would call it self-soothing, but I don't know...I want to be the one that helps my daughter back to sleep...not some machine. The incident where we barged into his bedroom in the middle of the night seemed very unnatural. I want my daughter to learn that she can rely on human beings.


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## YesandNo (Mar 16, 2008)

To be honest -- this is getting OT -- I love the idea of that button. If the child knows how to quickly become happy and secure upon awakening, how is that a bad thing? How is it better to have a child who gets upset? I wake up to feed my daughter about four times a night, and that's part of the job description so I do not complain (much), but oh having *me* STTN would be nice.


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

In my humble opinion, the only reason it may have worked at all is because the babies gave up trying. They gave up trusting in their parents. They knew their cries were useless and that their needs would not be met no matter how hard they tried.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Waldorf PC* 
In my humble opinion, the only reason it may have worked at all is because the babies gave up trying. They gave up trusting in their parents. They knew their cries were useless and that their needs would not be met no matter how hard they tried.









:







exactly what I was trying to say in my pp.

I dont have a problem with the button and him putting himself back to sleep what I have a problem with is how he got to that point. Just imagining all the nights he was afraid and alone makes my heart hurt.


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## MilkTrance (Jul 21, 2007)

camelfam, that story gives me chills

creepy


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## stormborn (Dec 8, 2001)

I really think it's the individual child. Neither of mine were left to CIO ever and both slept with me. #1 didn't sleep all night until she was almost 4 and getting her to sleep took all sorts of everchanging tricks and a breast in her mouth all night long. #2 slept 6 hours at a time from birth (4mo now) and sometimes doesn't even nurse to sleep! I can lie her down and by the time dd1 and I are done reading she's out. She'll wake to nurse and then sleep until we wake her.
Exact same nighttime parenting but completely opposite in the sleep department.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

omg that button sounds like a science fiction nightmare!!! that is so so so sad.

here's the thing i dont understand. my dd is now 6 and didnt start sleeping thru the night till she was 3 or 3 1/2 (it just crept up on me - i had no idea when she did start STTN). i remember her going thru v. definite phases when she did have longer sleeping stretches and sometimes v. short ones. her sleeping pattern changed right thru the first 3 years. slowly her number of wakings stopped.

i also noticed her sleep pattern changed when i started working. and so she nursed more during the night as i wasnt there during the day. both times when i was laid off - she woke less at night. but then i got used to her nursings and i never fully woke up when she nursed.

in fact i loved the pattern she went thru i think when she was 2. i guess her brain would be working at night as she used to wake up around midnight or 2 am, stay up for an hour talking and then go back to sleep. i loved those hours. they were so special. we had midnight feasts and even went to an all night diner for a treat in our pjs.

it is sad to see the way society is heading. i dont blame the parents for wanting to do CIO to be able to function and go to work. it just makes me sad what a price we pay for it. a huge but a sometimes subtle price. my mil did cio with her two youngest of 5. she just didnt have a choice and did it for her own sanity - as a single mom. she felt guilty doing it and still carries that guilt (their older brother tried to help but they couldnt be mothers) because those two are the darkest of the boys.

its sad being one of the richest nations in the world we encourage strangers as caregivers for our kids but not the parents itself. and so encourage all this periphery stuff like CIO, vaccines, sleep separately, limited BF - just so we can go back to work and be able to perform well.


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## cotopaxi (Sep 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *YesandNo* 
To be honest -- this is getting OT -- I love the idea of that button. If the child knows how to quickly become happy and secure upon awakening, how is that a bad thing? How is it better to have a child who gets upset?

ITA!! What is so wrong with that? It's probably close to what my dd does, but she has a blankie not a machine - wakes up, looks for her blankie, snuggles it, and nods back off. I don't see the problem? I never once left her to CIO to get to that point. I think it's great if some people want to cosleep for years if their kids seem to thrive with it, but I don't see why it's so wrong to not cosleep if having separate beds is in fact helping everyone in the family sleep better and the child's needs are all being met.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Nothing is wrong with it UNLESS he got that way by CIO and that is what the poster said happened. If he had learned to do it on his own without CIO then that is a great thing but he didnt.


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

DD didn't tolerate co-sleeping. She wouldn't get any sleep and neither did the adults in bed. She slept in a basinett cozied up to my side of the bed for 6 months, then in a crib in her own room. She nursed every 3 hours or less around the clock until about 14 months, and started refusing to nightnurse (though still waking at least once a night) around 16 months. At 17.5 months old she finally slept through the night from 10 p.m. ish to 7 am ish.

She's a crappy sleeper. Always has been. It ebbs and flows and goes in cycles. We've never forced her to CIO or anything remotely close. It's been hard.

Anyways, I don't think it's just sleeping arrangements, I think it's a variety of things. temperamant is huge.


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## ktmama (Jan 21, 2004)

There's a vast difference between nursing on demand at night and CIO. There are many, many different strategies parents can utilize to soothe a baby back to sleep at night that, yes do help the baby "learn" to soothe themselves back to sleep. I know a lot of parents here have a problem with that kind of philosophy, but my opinion is that anything that helps, without being damaging or withholding food when hungry, really can foster independence AND sleep. Keep in mind that in lots of families, both parents WOH and simply cannot tolerate sleep deprivation, so are more motivated to help their kids STTN. This is not me advocating CIO at all, I just know that some parents have less tolerance for prolonged periods of sleep deprivation than others.

I have two very different sleepers - one co-slept, the other not so much. Just couldn't sleep with us but slept great on her own, in her own room. The other is 11 and still wakes up at least once a night. So, I really do think it's a combination of wiring and parenting.


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## mommytomahmoud (Jan 8, 2007)

i have a friend her son is 2 months older then mine and formula fed and at 4 months old her son would be in the crib door shut at 730pm and left to CIO after 2 hrs he was out cold after a week of that she put him in the crib at 730pm said goodnight shut the door and didnt open it until 8am

soo if her son woke up she said she didnt go get him until 8am noo matter what he was always made to CIO even for nap times she puts him in his crib says good night and shuts the door and wont open it until it has been 2hrs if he is still alseep after 2 hrs she leaves the door open to hear him wake up

i dont agree with the way she does things my son was co slept breastfed and never CIO and he didnt start sleeping through until 15 months when i night weaned him

but i was in noo hurry to make him sleep through the night my son was not on solid food and breastmilk was all he was getting soo he nursed every 2 hrs at night for extra food which was fine for me

but anyways that is all i know about CIO is from my friend she also did it with her 2nd baby too


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

I think it completely depends on the child. My 3 (almost 4 year old) who co-slept for years does wake up at night most night...and then quickly falls back to sleep. Our baby - who wanted *nothing* to do with co-sleeping, and has slept in a pack n play since birth sleeps through the night most nights. My oldest who was 'trained' started waking up at night again when he was 18 months and did that for a year.....


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## Absinthia (Mar 18, 2008)

Depends on who you ask, either way the evidence is only anecdotal.


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## Amberoxy (Dec 20, 2007)

I thought that the CIO's slept through the night better since all the Mom's I know did CIO and their babies all slept. But, as they got older, some stopped sleeping so well. Also, I met more moms who did not do CIO and found that it really just seemed to depend on the individual child. I have totally managed to convince myself that if I have a 2nd baby, he/she will sleep way better than my first. If I allow myself to think that #2 will sleep as bad as #1, #2 will never get to show up!

Anyway, while my little guy doesn't sttn yet - he is very independent with absolutely 0 separation anxiety issues. I think his confidence in his parents is part of this and I think he has that confidence because we have never left him to CIO. His independance will last him and benefit him longer than his sleep issues will last I'm sure.

Good night! I hope


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## mellowjello (Jul 22, 2008)

I agree it depends on the baby and what is going on with them. For a new mom, that is probably the least helpful advice on the planet, though!!! I read of a recent literature review that found no lasting effects on temperment or security from sleep training. I also read that early trauma/stress can cause lasting psychological and biological harm, including future sleep disturbance.

I think this article is well worth reading for any parent wondering about this issue. It is not directly geared to this question but it has some information I found relevant and interesting:
http://www.tau.ac.il/~sadeh/baby/stress.htm


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Well.... are you *sure* their babies are STTN? Or do they just not hear them or respond to them?

Both of mine have STTN *sometimes* from day one. Both have only slept with me.

-Angela

second this. I nannied for a family when I was just out of high school. I slept in their son's room 5 nights a week "in case he woke up." 4 out of 5 nights he would wae up at least once. I would give him a bottle, rock him, etc and put him back to sleep. One day, I happened to mention something in passing about it to the mom, that he had slept all night the night before. She said, "doesn't he always sleep through the night?" She had no idea he was aking up and had never heard us at night, even though he cried quite loudly, i was getting up and turning on lights, going to the kitchen to fix a bottle, etc. That explained why he always "slept all night" on my nights off.

So just because people SAY their child STTN does not mean they are!!!


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## To-Fu (May 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MilkTrance* 
camelfam, that story gives me chills

creepy

No kidding! Ugh.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

do they stay up all night watching the baby? or is the baby just quiet all night because the baby knows its cry wont be answered - awake staring at a ceiling when it has a need that needs to be met that they know is unimportant to the parent? chances are, the parents may be sleeping through the night (though I dont understand how they can after being so cruel to their child) but the baby is most likely not. its just not developmentally appropriate. if they do sleep through the night at that age, I'd be super freaked out about increased SIDS risk. even most adults dno't sleep through the night.. sleep cycles dont work that way, and especially in children where waking up frequently is a defense mechanism. Developmentally, children do not _actually_ sleep through the night until sometime after the age of 3. some kids may comfort themselves back to sleep - this can be poorly achieved through CIO or wonderfully achieved through healthy nighttime parenting. I doubt her child is sleeping through the night. chance are her child has just given up on thinking of her mother as someone who meets her needs, and sees her needs as unimportant and not worth expressing, so baby is waking up, parents just don't know.


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## roxyrox (Sep 11, 2006)

Ds has _always_ STTN by the definition given on here (5/6 hours?). That, to me is NOT sleeping through the night though







..to me STTN is they sleep from when they go to bed until they wake up, like 9/10/11pm-7/8/9am or similar! He has always slept with us and never CIO. He used to cluster feed 7pm-10/11ish then sleep until 4ish, feed quickly and wake again at 7/8am. He properly STTN (without waking once!) just before he was 3yo!


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## 2lilsweetfoxes (Apr 11, 2005)

I'm a very heavy sleeper and once I'm out, I'm out. I literally have to have my babies right there or I'd be the mom bragging about how well my baby STTN--not realizing that they were probably up crying. A few times, dh would shake me and tell me to go get the baby, she's crying--then I feel badly because I don't know if she'd been screaming for 5 seconds or 30 minutes.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roxyrox* 
Ds has _always_ STTN by the definition given on here (5/6 hours?). That, to me is NOT sleeping through the night though







..to me STTN is they sleep from when they go to bed until they wake up, like 9/10/11pm-7/8/9am or similar! He has always slept with us and never CIO. He used to cluster feed 7pm-10/11ish then sleep until 4ish, feed quickly and wake again at 7/8am. He properly STTN (without waking once!) just before he was 3yo!

yeah this.

there are a lot of variables to this issue, the most obvious one being "what is STTN?" when people ask when my DD started STTN, i usually say she still doesn't...but sometimes she does sleep 8 hours at a time. not usually, but sometimes--and recently it's been happening more. i think i'll count it as STTN when she is reliably (like 6/7) nights sleeping at least an 8 hour stretch. that's my personal definition, based on nothing!

but DH considers her STTN even when she wakes 3 times because she goes back easily and we don't have to physically get up with her because we co-sleep.

i don't think CIO babies sleep better, on the whole. i think when parents say the kids "STTN," sometimes they just mean they don't get up to comfort them. i hear some of my CIO friends talk about the kid waking up and crying, but they don't go in unless a certain amount of time passes (usaully 10 minutes or so).

really, NEITHER of us are getting up to comfort our kid in the night (they because they're CIO, i because she's in my bed so i don't have to get up!). so by that definition, mine STTN too. see what i mean?


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## Dahlea (May 15, 2008)

i think all babies are different! some sttn no matter what you do and some won't sleep well no matter what you do. it's more a matter of what you're willing to do. mine sleeps badly but i'm not willing to do cio.


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## Shelsi (Apr 4, 2005)

It's true for me. My first slept in his own room in a crib after 6 weeks of age and he was sleeping through the night by 9 weeks (we did have a few rough spots over the next 1.5 yrs of course but by and far on average he'd sleep about 10-12 hrs straight through). I was addicted to my monitor, if he woke up he didn't make any noise. He was a super easy laid back baby though...he's just a chill little guy even now at 4.5 yrs old.

My dd had to sleep in our room since we didn't have an extra room for her at the time. We didn't have her in our bed but she was in a crib in our room and she woke every 2 hrs. She did this until we moved when she was 14 mos old to a house where she could have her own room and then started sleeping through the night thank God.

We never used CIO btw. I just don't like bed sharing. I get absolutely no sleep that way at all.

All the parents I know who are like me and kids sleep in another room always go to their kid if something is up. I don't understand why having my kids sleep in a separate room means I don't hear them or go to them? I just have a standard baby monitor and I can hear a pin drop on that thing.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I have no opinion on CIO babies. (I almost never post here, but the thread title caught my eye).

My children have all coslept for at least the first year...and when ds1 was moved into his own room at 14 months (the youngest), my ex or I were out of bed like a bullet if he cried at night, so he didn't CIO even then.

DS1 started sleeping through the night most nights at about...8 or 9 months, I'd say.

DD actually did sleep better in her own bed. We transferred her out of ours at about 21 or 22 months (ds2 was on the way, and we didn't want her to associate him with being moved, but couldn't fit us all in). Prior to being moved, she used to wake up and fuss 2-3 times a night. She didn't really want to nurse - just seemed unsettled. Once we moved her into her own bed, she was fine. She was right next to us, and rarely woke up at all. I think she really preferred her own bed. (DD was my difficult night-time baby, including 3 straight months of crying for 4 hours straight every night. That started in the hospital.)

DS2 slept 6 hours the night he was born, woke up, nursed, and went back to sleep for another 2-3 hours. He didn't stay on quite that schedule, but he never woke up more than twice in a night (I think he nursed very efficiently and really filled his little tummy or something), and almost always had at least one 4-5 hour stretch.

So - that's my cosleeping kids. They're all in their own beds now...and I still get up if they cry in the night (even my eldest, although that's only happened once in about 6 years - the night before his eardrum burst). It doesn't happen very often, though.

I've also heard stories like one upthread several times...people who have visited friends with babies. The babies woke up crying at night, but the parents never heard it.


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## chipper26 (Sep 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transylvania_mom* 
better for whom? for the parents?
STTN doesn't always mean a better sleep for a baby. Sometimes their health, emotional well-being and even survival depend on their waking up through the night.









:

My first response when you asked if you were making it harder for yourself was: "Probably, but it's better for baby and that's really what it's all about?"


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## Draupadi (Jul 19, 2007)

My friend's two children, aged 21/2 and 9 months, are both CIO babies and she complains about them not sleeping well. Her 2 1/2 year old is always calling her in the morning and she just ignores him, and she told me that she let the baby cry for 2 hours more than a few times.
My DS fusses all night long. We bed share and I don't think he wakes completely but he always wants to nurse. His eyes can be closed and he still asks for it. FWIW, I sleep terribly because of it.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

Quote:

IMO, the real fallacy here is thinking that sleeping "more" and sleeping "longer" equal sleeping "better". Sure, it may be more convenient for the parents for baby to sleep for 8-12 hours straight, but that's not the same as "better" for the baby. Babies wake as often as they do because they have biological needs. So the natural waking pattern really is better for baby, even if its inconvenient for parents.
I think thats a very good way to put it!









For me, its not just about sleep. Its looking at the whole pictures and there are a lot of research links here about CIO and its affects it has on children. I am more concerned with my sons emotional health, well being, etc - than how much he/we sleep. However, saying that, as long as I can keep with it, there are ways around problems that can arise that still promote such healthy attachment and growth in my son and myself that might not be co-sleeping, though we have always co slept and that works for us!


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Just going to start by saying this is my opinion and I have no studies to back it up.

Babies that are left to CIO (in my opinion) are not just being asked to learn how to self sooth, but being asked to learn to ignore when they are hungry. A very bad habit for someone of any age to get into is learning to eat when not hungry or not eat when hungry. Both of which can screw up metabolism. Babies who co-sleep and are fed when they wake up hungry will in most circumstances take longer to learn to sleep through the night consistently because they are listening to their own needs. Think about it, the stomach is the size of a persons closed fist. If you had a stomach as small as you baby's then you'd be more likely to get hungry in the middle of the night too.

Also along the lines of what Angela said, I was reading an article by a woman who started out using the Ezzo-Babywise method. She recounted one incident where they had guests spend the night. They heard the baby wake up and cry but she slept through it because she had trained herself not to hear her child cry in the middle of the night.









I agree with this. First, they aren't responded to in the night, but they aren't necessarily asleep the whole time. And they might be going hungry during the night still but just not being fed when they're hungry. And I agree that it's possible they are even crying during the night but not being heard in some cases.

So CIO works to get PARENTS sleeping through the night, but I don't know how anyone could know whether the babies are sleeping through the night unless they have a camera pointed down at their faces so you can see if their eyes are closed. Maybe they wake up and know they won't be fed anyway so they just lie there?

AND, some kids sleep through the night CIO or not. My one-month old dd is sleeping 6 hours at night already. And she co-sleeps and is nursed on demand. So we're talking about kids who wouldn't sleep through the night otherwise I assume.


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## FullMetalMom (Aug 27, 2008)

I know anecdotes don't necessarily prove anything, but I have a friend who formula fed and had her baby sleep in a separate room and the baby was a TERRIBLE sleeper. Woke up several times a night and did not nap well either.


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## orangekoolaid (May 21, 2006)

a mom once told me "pay now or pay later" I keep thinking about that every time I want my DD to sleep better. I just need to be patient and one day she will (she's over 2 now)


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## JMJ (Sep 6, 2008)

Here's a great article I've found on the topic: http://www.drjen4kids.com/soap%20box/sleep%20stuff.htm

From my experience, I would say that in general, yes, children who are left in their own rooms at night eventually get so that they don't bother waking their parents in the middle of the night to meet their needs because they know it will do no good. They have also been shown to go into a deeper sleep, which could put them at a higher risk of SIDS. Cosleeping, on the other hand, allows parents to respond quickly to the needs of their children before anybody becomes fully awake. I've never heard of kids being sleep deprived because they wake up too many times cosleeping.

I know parents who try to force their kids to get used to waiting to eat for longer and longer intervals so that they can sleep longer without "needing" to wake up and eat. The thing is that children digest especially breastmilk very quickly and need more. Why not feed them at the times that they wake up naturally anyway? Why have a problem meeting your child's needs as quickly as possible rather than encourage them to be something different and not ask for what they need?


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## Shelsi (Apr 4, 2005)

I still just hate this sentiment on this forum that if they are sleeping in a separate room they are also doing CIO. They are not one and the same. They are 2 totally different things. I know parents who co-sleep and let their kid CIO and I know parents (like myself) who's kids sleep in their own room but never CIO.

It's offensive to me to hear people talking about how horrible it is to make kids sleep in a separate room when you are obviously talking about being left to CIO in a separate room.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Didn't read the thread, just the OP. There is some actual evidence that babies who have been left to CIO, sleep for longer stretches at an earlier age than babies who haven't. However, that is only an average-- there certainly are many, many babies who don't CIO who sleep for a long time and vice versa-- and for most of us, sleeping for long stretches isn't the ultimate goal above all others.


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## NaturalMindedMomma (Feb 5, 2007)

I go into my DD when she cries. I just put her in the crib awake and she falls asleep, she never cries (maybe a whine here and there). She used to need a sippy and the sippy was getting ridiculous. She would NEED it everywhere we went and I got rid of it. It took a lot of going in and soothing, but to fall asleep I did let her whimper a bit. I would go in and sooth her if it was more than a whine/whimper. She is mostly STTN 8:30-8 ish. But she is great, super attached. She hated co sleeping after she was about 3 weeks old. I wasn't sleeping well either. This baby will be in our room in a drop side co sleeper. I'm hoping it will work out.

I think if CIO babies do sleep more.easier it's due to giving up, they have to learn to self soothe to fall asleep and most likely they stay asleep longer because who wants to wake up and need someone and they never come?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shelsi* 
I still just hate this sentiment on this forum that if they are sleeping in a separate room they are also doing CIO. They are not one and the same. They are 2 totally different things. I know parents who co-sleep and let their kid CIO and I know parents (like myself) who's kids sleep in their own room but never CIO.

It's offensive to me to hear people talking about how horrible it is to make kids sleep in a separate room when you are obviously talking about being left to CIO in a separate room.

If you have only ever had children who needed to co-sleep in order to sleep, then you might make that connection when writing from your perspective. But that doesn't mean anyone who writes that assumes that the two are necessarily related in every circumstance, just that it would have been in their experience with their particularly child(ren) and their perspective reflects that. My first would have had to CIO to sleep alone, but my second is already sleeping six hours a night and she's just a tiny baby. I have no doubt she'll be able to sleep alone by herself in her own room without CIO by three months if I choose to have her sleep in her room.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

My dauhgter slept in her own crib (mostly) but I never allowed her to cry. If she cried, I went in and got her.

Once, I was running the tub and didn't hear her and I felt awful. She never had to cry.

But, she slept through the night from day one. Always has unless she was sick. She would always rather sleep than eat.

She wasn't a wonderful napper, but she'd sleep 8 hours at a stretch at night.. then by the time she was a year, she slept 10-12 hours at a stretch.

(she was a beast to wake up though)

So, I think sometimes it's how they sleep. Plus, if your baby is a light sleeper, they wake up when you move, and then they figure... "Hey, I'm awake.. might as well get mom up too".

My child could and would sleep through anything, and could fall asleep anywhere.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

camelfam: I read your post after I posted yesterday, then I read it out loud to dh and ds1. DS1 said, "that's horrible - that poor baby" and dh said, "that sounds like Wall-E". DH also followed it up with a sarcastic comment about the necessity of CIO, because "obviously our children can't sleep through the night".


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