# Attachment parenting vs Continuum Parenting?



## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

What are the major differences between them?

I would describe myself as an instinctive parent which leans heavily towards continuum parenting and do the following:

Constant physical contact with my baby from birth;

Sleeping with my baby in constant physical contact, until he left of his own volition, - mine left at various ages between 6 and 2 1/2 years;

Breastfeeding on cue;

I constantly carried my baby in arms which allowed to observe, nurse and sleep while I went about my business until he was able to be crawl and sit unaided and explore the world. This was around 6 months old for my youngest;

Responding immediately to his signals without judgment or displays of annoyance but without showing any undue concern or making him the constant center of attention;

Acknowledging that he is innately social and cooperative and has strong self-preservation instincts, and that he is welcome and worthy.

This seems the same as any attachment parenting parent would do, or are there some differences here?

Deborah


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Sometimes in threads about CC, there is a bit of disagreement about one aspect of it. The "benign neglect" for lack of a better word, that it suggests in terms of active attention from mother to child.

Feeding, and changing, and holding are all fine of course. But there seems to be some belief among CC that the baby/child is responsible for finding their own entertainment without relying on the mother. The mother seems to be encouraged to actively avoid falling into the habit of involving herself in the activities of her child, in the form of guidance, giving tasks, and especially sitting with/partcipating in the child's activies as a playmate.

Personally, I think that part of CC is taken out of context. The author was observing a close knit village. A toddler probably did have myriad adults, older kids, and the freedom to roam. Village mothers had the luxury of relying on that network, and to the observer, probably did not appear to be giving much attention to their kids. In the U.S., most kids home with mom aren't free to roam out of their own yard, and don't have other aduts and kids to go run around with all day long. I think it's a stretch to suggest a child will be anything but bored without mom making some kind of effort to have activities on hand, and also to fullfill the role of "playmate" from time time (especially with a first or only child). I also don't think it is bad or harmful for parents and kids to have playtime together.

So that part of CC is not a part of AP really. I think CC and ap are virtually indistinguishable. That is the only aspect of CC that I don't think AP shares.


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## Dodo (Apr 10, 2002)

I'm glad that you posted this. This is a question I have been debating myself.

As my baby became a toddler, I got more interested in CC and less so in AP. Or I think I did, because, like you, I'm not sure whether or not they are mutually exclusive.

Are there no essays on this topic? Someone point us in the right direction.


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## nataliekat (Dec 3, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by heartmama_
*The mother seems to be encouraged to actively avoid falling into the habit of involving herself in the activities of her child, in the form of guidance, giving tasks, and especially sitting with/partcipating in the child's activies as a playmate.

Village mothers had the luxury of relying on that network, and to the observer, probably did not appear to be giving much attention to their kids.*
Has anyone read the book Our Babies, Ourselves? The author talks about the Gusii tribe in Africa who sling their babies all day long. They don't believe in interacting with a child or giving it direct attention, thinking that it will encourage the child to be self-centered, a trait which is very undesirable in their culture.

I don't know what tribe was studied in CC, but it could have been a similar situation where the mother was deliberately not directly interacting with her child.

I agree it's not really possible in our culture where mother and baby are hanging around the house together most of the time.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I really don't see much difference between AP and CC. I think they largely complement each other.

I have noticed that my baby is veyr calm and happy when I am carrying her on my hip and going about my business. I often think of CC during these times. I may be vaccuming, doing laundry, tidying up the kitched, whatever....she just watches, is very calm and quiet, but oh so interested. It's really neat!

But I don't make any effort to do this as a CC practice. It's just that I have things I need to do, and as an AP parent (and just from basic instinct) I cannot put my DD down if she is just going to cry to be held, so....I pick her up on my hip and do my thing. If I have alot to do, I"ll put on a sling or my hip hammock.

I do, however, make a point of paying attention to my DD and engaging her in her playtime activities. Not always - there are times when she is quite happy to play on her own with me nearby. But I make a point of taking time to get down on the floor with her and share in her experiences. I think this is a way of bonding, of getting an insight into her world (I'm reading "Playful Parenting" by L. Cohen).


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

I don't mean this as a judgement in any way if someone feels differently... This is just what I have thought the difference between CC and AP to be in the past.

I know one particular mom who is extremely AP. She has one small child and she will follow him around trying to do things with him and entertain him. It was really annoying, even just to watch. ("Oh, you want to do cars now? Let's do cars! Vrooooom! Oh, you're done with cars? You want to color? No? Well, do you want to paint? A snack? Go outside?! Watch a video?!" On and on. She also would think everything he did was 'cute' whether it actually was cute, or it was him throwing boxes of food in the grocery store.) I always kind of thought of her as AP gone waaaaay too far and would think how much she could benefit from CC. Her house was out of control because DS wouldn't "let" her do anything, and he really ran the whole show.

Actually that last phrase sums it up pretty well- I think in CC the parent is still in charge, but they meet DC's needs as they go about their day, but *sometimes* with just AP and no CC, the kids get to be the boss, and that can be taken too far.

I do CC, and to me that means my kids enjoy helping me in my grown-up things rather than me spending hours doing kid things. My kids LOVE to help me do my stuff, and I still play toys with them, but it is not the main focus of my day.


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## christymama (Feb 21, 2003)

I dont think there should be "labels" Myself I am a Parent. I am the best parent I can be or that I know how to be. I am learning things every day! Thats part of parenting I think. Learning, Improving and making mistakes. I had no clue about AP parenting and Cc parenting. To be honest I never Breastfed either of my children. Never really thought about it with the first one who will be 7 in June and with the youngest I thought about it but was scared for some reason. But I do plan to breastfeed my next child. I have no doubt about that in my mind. We have always been cosleepers, gental disapline. We dont give our kids sugar and we only let them have a hour total of tv a day. They are both very healthy, fun loving children who never seem to be sick. They respect others and their things and they are polite. I spend quilty time with both of them. They are all around happy healthy kids. What more can i ask for ? What kind of parent does that make me? A loving one willing to learn every day.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

They do complement each other, but I see huge differences.

I wrote an Amazon review. The book helped me tremendously for my first year.

I have a friend who does CC. I read the book a long time ago, fuzzy memory, but I know there is an emphasis on letting the child explore with "dangerous" objects, trusting the child will not harm himself. (I think this is great, and I have implemented it somewhat, but I still have issues with it. It helped me back off when my son was 10 months old and learning to climb stairs. I backed off - wasn't all over him panicking - and I watched him figure it out on his own. It was wonderful to watch. He also climbed things - at a young age. Other parents would have panicked and swooped in to rescue.)

_Edited to add:_ We also cook together. He's been stirring eggs in a glass bowl since he was a little over 2. He's been stirring scrambled eggs at the stove since he was 2.5 yrs old.

A few weeks ago, my CC friend had her 16-month old over. She sews. She sews, so she had her pin cushion on the floor. I told her daughter







_"Careful sweetie. Don't touch that."_ Her dd started to cry. (No child likes to be told No by someone else.) My friend said, _"That's OK, she can touch it."_







I felt like a big idiot. The Western typical reaction is to panic and protect the child. CC is more open about this. I can't remember... I do think her DD does pick up pins, but never manages to hurt herself. Her son (4) also uses knives (I guess for 2 years) at the dinner table, and we all know mothers who won't let their 7 yr old touch a knife to cut their own food for fear of cutting themselves. I know of one mainstream mother who is always screaming at her 5-8 yr old boys _"Be Careful!" "Stop that!"_ It's annoying. She means well, but I do think it's more harmful than good.

My analogy: APing is like earning your college degree. CC is like doing post-grad work. CC is more advanced, IMHO.

*I know one particular mom who is extremely AP. She has one small child and she will follow him around trying to do things with him and entertain him. It was really annoying, even just to watch.* That does sound annoying.

*Her house was out of control because DS wouldn't "let" her do anything, and he really ran the whole show.*
Well, this sounds like me, but I DO do chores with my son also. He helps me cook. I don't spend the whole day doing Kid stuff either. Yet he is very social and outgoing and prefers company often. "Mom, look at me.... come _here_." Actually, I'm wrong.... he does play by himself half the time. The other half asks for me.

My CC friend's 4 year old went through a long phase of being "out-of-control." Emotional outbursts, self-centered behavior in public (spitting food at a restaurant - mom wasn't paying attention), too aggressive with my son (they are both high-energy and it bounced off each other).... he has settled down. But I attribute this to the fact that he is a SPIRITED child, like mine.

He's got a million toys. More than us. That's the problem here.... we live in 2 parent household - no CC tribe. Toys are HIS personal possession, just my my son's toys are HIS. There are no tribe toys.

*I agree it's not really possible in our culture where mother and baby are hanging around the house together most of the time.*





















We do the best we can...

*Has anyone read the book Our Babies, Ourselves? The author talks about the Gusii tribe in Africa who sling their babies all day long. They don't believe in interacting with a child or giving it direct attention, thinking that it will encourage the child to be self-centered, a trait which is very undesirable in their culture.*

I read it. AWESOME book. That would explain why my son is so self-centered. I do run things by him "white T-shirt or Blue?"







: I try to be fair and let him make choices. In his mind, I'm giving up power, so he acts powerful.







:

I also believe in Reading Aloud. So there I am, sitting down with him reading books to him. Focusing more on him.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

The primary emphasis I took from reading CC was that we should be treating children as valid and contributing members of society. The in arms phase should gradually develop into the phase where the child helps with chores, and contributes to the family/tribe in whatever ways he is interested. It is a continuum that begins with observing and being a part of his environment and grows into interacting with his environment.

The auther pointed the major problem in our culture, and I agree, of segregating children off into their own groups and activities, and keeping "Real life" apart from them. This both teaches them self-centeredness and prevents them from feeling satisfied with life. Her assumption is that all of us, down to the very small, have a deep innate need to be part of the workings of our social setting.

I think CC is very compatable with AP -- because RESPECT toward our children is fundamental to AP. I think CC respects children in the way that it expects them to play valid roles in the community. Children are not pets or playthings -- they are people who want to learn to do what people do. The best way for them to learn is by being a part of what we do.

Extreme child-centeredness is NOT showing respect for our children. It is patronizing them. Respect is shown by involving our children and their focus on tasks and goals in their environment, and by trusting their ability to be a part of things.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I think CC is always AP but that AP is not always CC. If that made any sense.

CC is definitely not child centered. A lo fo times people doing AP will be child centered. Everything revolves around the child. I do AP but am defitely not child centered. Our children are a valuble part of our family and the are welcome and worthy of love but the stuff we do does not revolve around them in any way. Our general philosophy is "Mom is doing this right now. You may help me or you may go find something else to do" I think this would line up with parts of CC parenting. Also I am not constantly telling them they can't do something because it is dangerous (although I don't let them play with knives or matches) So I am definitely not CC but have taken some stuff from that camp because it fits nicely with how I parent which is mainly AP. Although I hate lables altogether. Anyone parenting by a set of rules rather than thinking and doing what seems right for thier family is doing thier children a disservice. Lable just encourage that sort of thing.


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## dancingmama (Dec 18, 2001)

Well, for me, I guess dd's early infancy looked pretty CC -- she was in the sling a lot of the time, hanging out with me doing whatever. But as she gets older (she's almost 9 months), I find playing with her to be much fun, and interacting with her to be enormously rewarding for both of us. I think that the "benign neglect" that heartmama mentions would feel totally UN-instinctual to me, as I tend to be a pretty playful, upbeat person. And since I am quite simply parenting instinctually, doing anything other than that would feel like playing a part. So when dd is clingy and needy, she's in the sling. When she's content to play on her own, she does. And when she seems to want a playmate, if we are alone, I'm it! And happily so.


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## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

Wow, This is a really interesting thread. I have never even heard of CC!

I do wonder about the safety aspects. I remember reading about a year ago that in Japan for the last decade or so, there was a strong feeling that Americans were way "overprotective" of their kids. And then a major study was published in Japan showing that Japan had THE highest accidental death rate among children of any industrialized nation. In the article I read, it said the government was trying to get the people to change their views somewhat.

Anyway, I also thought this was interesting.

How do you all come down on the safety vs. letting them do their own thing issue.

Just for me I will admit to being completely neurotic and safety obessesed.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by lilyka_
*CC is definitely not child centered. A lo fo times people doing AP will be child centered. Everything revolves around the child. I do AP but am defitely not child centered. Our children are a valuble part of our family and the are welcome and worthy of love but the stuff we do does not revolve around them in any way. Our general philosophy is "Mom is doing this right now. You may help me or you may go find something else to do"*
Well, this just made me realize something huge. And that's why I love this topic. I learn new things and CC opens up my mind and makes me think in different ways/see things from another perspective.

My son is very defiant (lately) and self-centered. (But so is my friend's CC child - go figure.) I know I contributed to this directly and I was confused as to how. I definitely need to stop doing certain things.

*Breastfeeding*
Up till 3 days ago, I nursed him
- in the morning
- in the late afternoon (when he asked - I felt guilty saying no, he would cry and I felt guilty and gave in. Eventhough I did not want to nurse during the day.)
- to sleep
- during the night when he woke up (3-4 times some nights) DH







wanted me to teach him to sleep on his own. He didn't want the CC family bed. Sigh. In order not to "scar" my son, I stayed with my son in his twin the rest of the night. My DH missed me. I missed sleeping in my own bed, but I felt I had to take care of my son's nighttime needs. I felt sad that I couldn't give him the Family Bed that other cultures have. My staying with him during the night was a way of remedying that. That sounds child-centered to me!

Now who is the boss? Me or him? Answer: him!!!!









I was emotionally deprived in childhood. So with my son I'm trying to validate all his needs. Problem is,







I've gone overboard.

3 days ago I began weaning him. I now only nurse him in the morning after we wake up. I feel good about it. It was time. He's really OK with it. He is the kind of child that would nurse till 5 or 6. I never wanted that.

Another difference - *Praise*
My CC friend explained that praise (anything over-the-top... 'WOW!!! "Yay!" "Good Job!") is not a good thing for a child because it robs them of their own self-joy. When adults (like well-meaning grandparents) are quick to rush in and give an emotion to their accomplishments, it robs the child of a sense of personal mastery. Let the kid have his OWN feelings. Let him experience them.

So I tried to BITE MY TONGUE anytime he does something good and let him have his good feeling. But I will say "that was a nice thing to do" later/after the fact if he does something nice for a friend.

*And then a major study was published there showing that they had THE highest accidental death rate among children of any industrialized nation.* Correct me if I'm wrong, but Liedloff would say that's because adults EXPECT the worse from children, and that children have never had experience with dangers... therefore are more prone to accidents. My son never fell down when he was climbing. It was something he mastered on his own. I was right there, in case he fell, but I let him climb.

*How do you all come down on the safety vs. letting them do their own thing issue.*

I have a pool. All my friends with pools got a fence before the kids could crawl. Our pool is at the side of our house, and there is a gate, so it is fenced off so to speak. The way I've handled it is just to stay with him (since about 1.5 yrs old) in that area. I've always let him get close to the edge. I just taught him how to touch the water. NEVER bending knees (you could fall in). Lie on your tummy to touch the water. I'm always there. I won't be leaving him alone in the pool any time soon, but at least I know he knows how to handle himself there.

Since age 2 ish, he's been cleaning the pool with a HUGE pole with a net. At first, I was afraid and didn't want him to becaue I thought it was too heavy and he'd tip in. We'll he likes to put it in and skim (like he's seen me do it) and he's fine. OBVIOUSLY, I do not leave him alone. I'm there if he needs me.

My friend has a brick steps leading up to an elevated spa. She was it was hard for her the first few months to just let her baby climb the steps. One wrong crawl/step BANG on your head. He was fine. It's a just a matter of telling yourself *your child needs to explore his environment*. You are there. It is safe. The child will actually gain a lot of the exploration - mastery. One thing our kids are not - accident prone.


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## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Tanibani_
*And then a major study was published there showing that they had THE highest accidental death rate among children of any industrialized nation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Liedloff would say that's because adults EXPECT the worse from children, and that children have never had experience with dangers... therefore are more prone to accidents. My son never fell down when he was climbing. It was something he mastered on his own. I was right there, in case he fell, but I let him climb.
*
*
*
*

Not sure what you mean. I was talking about how in Japan, they (at least according to the articles I read) don't worry so much about their kids and think Americans are CRAZY for being so protective and not letting kids experience danger and then the Japanese found out that their laid back attitude was leading to lots and lots more accidental deaths per capita then that of US or other industrialized nations.*


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

oops i miss read your post


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## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

My post was kinda confusing. Sorry. I edited it.

I do think its a hard balance : Safety vs. giving kids a sense of adventure and independance.


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## sunbaby (Sep 30, 2002)

i have not read any cc books, but i get the sense that in most respects i am more cc-ish (although i like the comment that somebody made about following your gut more than any one set of rules/labels) maybe i am misunderstanding, but i am uneasy with the whole 'kids wont hurt themselves' concept. there is really a balance between protectiveness and allowing a child to explore that must be customized for the individual personality of the child. mine was TOTALLY accident prone between ages one to two (at two and a half she is a lot better, but still on the fearless side). while her friend would carefully climb a ladder to use a slide, she would be like half way up the ladder and then let go to wave at me







: or she would get way up there and then want to run down the slide rather than slide, which seems like a bit much for 18 months old, or am i being overprotective about that? falling doesnt bother her at all, even when there is real danger. once she was literally nearly trampled by my frightened horse because i had explained how she should behave in order to stay safe, and she either forgot or was testing- i think i let her take more risk than she was ready for. i wonder if some kids just dont get the idea of danger as much as other kids do? or maybe mine is experiencing an adolescent sense of immortality a bit early.







:


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## untomySelf (Apr 13, 2003)

I really like this thread.
I especially enjoyed mamaducks post (very well articulated I thought) and Tanibani's understanding of CC.

I agree that it does come down (for me) to the "child centredness" and trust issues that distinguish CC parenting from anything else. (AP or not)

I also agree that implimenting a CC style way of living into western culture has to (bc we have a very different collective unconscious to the Yuequana tribes) change and unless you do live with adequate tribe members (for me this would mean a number of on call caregivers/breastfeeders, children of all ages raised a "CC" way existing along side each other etc), then to some degree, being a childs playmate will naturally to some degrees need to happen.
How that interaction happens of course is what I think would distinguish cc from perhaps a more child centred (I call it child robbing) way of living.

EG.
(my examplesmay seem extreme to show differences, and of course I am quite biased as you will read







)

Childcentred interaction

Mom is following child around making sure child doesnt "get hurt". Child plays with ball.
oh I see youre looking at that ball.(narrative)Oh you threw it, oh what a strong boy/girl you are.(parent claps) Here, why dont you throw it like this!(parent directs) OK muffin, what would you like mommy to do now...oh yes you want that, oh no? ok you tell me what you want. (Mom is running around directing like a chook without a head, child is not left to exist in their own rhythms, child is running the show and acts out trying desperately to right the situation).

CC interaction

Mom is doing useful work in or around the house. Child is throwing ball, experimenting with gravity laws, marvelling at the colors, smells etc etc etc. Child is left to explore without narrative, interruption .
Child is hungry and signals to Mom. (By going to Mom. Mom does not go to child, child knows to go to Mom). Mom offers boob or food but does not stop her work and does not offer or ask what unless child has stated explicitly. this is all done in a natural flow with love, no extra attention is required. Child leaves Mom or child needs more, mom reads child and offers what is needed.

Also wanted to note that I have a dear friend who isnt very AP (my understanding of AP is BF, slinging, co sleeping, minimal separation, that kind of thing) BUT she is very CC
(Does not interfer with their lives, trusts them implicitly, acts always when needed but doesnt offer too much or too little. Does not punish them, shame or belittle them. Goes about her business and they take her lead. They know she is sure of herself and calm).

So







, for me the similarities of AP and CC are the family bed and bf on demand.
Even the crucial in arms phase(see mamaducks post)CC talks alot about may differ from AP practices.
How a parent lives with their children is a whole other thing and these two "ways" can be poles apart.

Look forward to hearing more









ps. Tanibani, I hear you about your child and the stairs. I did the same thing with our son. I got better at trusting myself and him as time went on. He rarely had close calls. He uses knives to help cook, used scissors from a young age, cooks with me near heat.....it is so far all ok.
I do believe that the trust and attitude of the parent does determine alot of outcomes, but honestly, I feel arrogant and ignorant if I said that this is a black and white recipe. Children are born with so many differing constitutions, inheritances and karma's.


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## dancingmama (Dec 18, 2001)

untomySelf,

Wow, your description of child-centered parenting sounds exhausting, and definately annoying to the child, parent, and any unfortunate soul witnessing the interaction. But on the other hand, your description of CC (in my opinion of course!) seems to lack something -- a sense of joy I guess. Of getting pleasure from spending time with one's child. Of playfulness. The parents that I know and hang out with definately fall somewhere between these two extremes, and so do I. KWIM???


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

dancingmama, I agree. I get the same feeling.

I suppose one thing that strikes me reading this (great thread, btw!) is that I personally don't think of AP as being something that is really applied to toddlers. I think of it as primarily a baby thing. YES, it definitely has carryovers, such as cosleeping with your toddler or older child, and EBF. But when I think of the responsiveness, the "child-centeredness" of AP, I believe it is absolutely essential for a newborn, yet as the child gets older it is not the focus anymore. Sears' Baby Book "ends" at age 2, and "The Discipline Book" takes over, KWIM? The examples given above of a "child centered" parent does not seem to fit my own idea of what AP is. It just sounds like smothering, and I think ANY parent can be guilty of this (Harville Hendrix would describe such a parent as a "maximizer") - too worried, too hovering, too unwilling to let the child explore on his own. I don't think it's fair to say that is AP.

I also must admit that while reading all the descriptions of CC-type responses I feel an uneasyness. It just sounds "wrong" to me. I'm sure it's because I haven't read the book, or I'm not reading the posts right, but dancingmama really verbalized it for me - where's the joy? I mean, I'm definitely not on the floor with DD all day long, but when I do take the time out to play "on her level" I'm amazed and filled with joy for her when she can put her little round wooden toy through the round hole and she looks up at me with this huge "I'm so PROUD" smile and I can't help but be excited and make a fuss of her. I can't help but say "okay, let's put the triangle in the triangle hole!" or some other such thing. No, this isn't all we do and my DH and I certainly live our life doing what we want alot of the time and just bringing DD along with us, but I feel those interactions I described above are really important. I just don't think it would suit my personality at all to just "don't offer, don't ask, don't participate"...if I'm reading it correctly.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I think that CC can involve a lot of joy. CC requires a different pace in life. If you are involving a child in what gets accomplished in your life, and you are respecting his priorities and contributions, then you necessarily spend longer periods of time doing these things. Life is slower. There is a lot of discovery, a lot of fun, and a lot of time to see things from your child's POV.

I also don't think it eliminates time for play. Even adults need to play sometimes. It *does* mean that play is a respected activity, and not just something that revolves around the child's needs. Instead, it revolves around the group's needs.


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## Dodo (Apr 10, 2002)

Re: AP being for babies, not toddlers

This is where AP falls short for me.

When my dd was ten-, eleven-, twelve-months old, I started to worry. What is a want? What is a need?

Now I have a twenty-month-old despot.

I was very baby-centred in her first year. I should have strived to maintain some other interests, less because I think it would have had an effect on her personality (I think that she is who she is), more because I think it would boost me through the hard times of toddlerhood.

The woman I know whose parenting mose closely approximates CC also, paradoxically, has the most child-centred household. In a way it takes a lot of effort to give your child his or her autonomy. If he isn't ready to leave playgroup when his mom is, they stay. If he wants to go outside before she has her shoes on, they go. If he wants to turn right, they do. If he wants to ride the bike and she wants to walk, they bike. She is very involved in his play in that she is accepting of most things that he wants to do. I should say that she doesn't appear burdened or embittered by the situation. She is a go-with-the-flow kinda gal, very open and loving. Although I don't envy her her situation, I do take some cues from her. I try not to hover. I try to let dd explore as much as possible. I try (oh, how I try!) not to micromanage her play with other children. I try not to tell the children she's playing with how to behave. I try, but am ultimately, unable to let her play with potential chokeables, e.g. coins. I say "try" not "do" because CC has been somewhat unworkable with an aggressive toddler.

This reads like an anti-CC rant, but actually I'm pro. Guess you could say I'm pro in theory, lost IRL?


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## Robinmama (Dec 17, 2001)

I am AP with some TCS thrown in, not CC.

I don't think that being child centred means hovering constantly waiting to give your child her every need and wish. But if we are at playgroup and my dd (who is 3) does not want to leave and I don't have some pressing appointment, why not stay? If we are walking home and she wants to turn right and I do not have some good reason not to, why not turn right? But if I have to (for example) be somewhere at a specific time, I will be child centred in leaving as early as possible to accomodate my dd's world view, but we won't be able to wander aimlessly about the neighbourhood.

To me, being child centred means nothing more than being compassionate and respectful -- trying to see the world from her eyes. I would do this for any person that I love, so why not for my child? The three year old world view is pretty different than the 36 year old world view, and seeing things through her eyes can be a joy and a pleasure.

I can be quite hands off. I told her a few times that if she kept slamming the cutlery drawer she would get her fingers caught, and lo and behold she did, poor thing. But I won't be so hands off that I would let her do something truly dangerous without age appropriate supervision and assistance. At the same time, being child centred meant that when she was younger we REALLY baby proofed our house, not by locking and gating everything, but by removing everything unsafe and breakable to the basement so that our house could be her house too, and she could be free to roam and play safely without constantly being told no.

I do my own thing at home -- what I HAVE to do, minimal cooking and cleaning, but of course I play with her too. It's fun! Life is good.

Every child, regardless of how they are raised can be a despot and manners or "good" (ie socialized) behaviour is an indication of nothing. What really counts is, is your child happy? Is she/ he confident? Is she free? Does he feel loved? Whatever parenting theory helps parents to have relationships that lead to this kind of development is working for them!

And yes, mommies all need time for themselves to refresh the well.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

.....what is "TCS"?


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## untomySelf (Apr 13, 2003)

hi dancingmama

yes I know what you mean .

I never said I am articulate and good at writing









CC parenting is not joyless at all. Reading my post it did sound bland didnt it. I think I was trying to compare energetically the different energy investments by the parent more than anything.

I probabaly needed to spend more time tweaking that post but alas I didnt have that kind of time or clarity.

Oh also for claritys sake I was not suggesting that child centredness (as I understand the word) is necessarily "AP" either.
Child centredness in my understanding can occur in any home with any style of living.
My example was extreme (but boy I have seen this ALOT) but it can also be subtle.
I think Im suggesting that remaining aware of your agenda and conditioning as a parent, can help free a child to live their life. Thats what I take from CC anyway. Im mindful, I do not interfere as such and if my ds does something brilliant (in my eyes) and looks at me for mirorring, of course I give it with my heart and my smile and my words (which I admit I choose carefully. )

Quote:

I think that CC can involve a lot of joy. CC requires a different pace in life. If you are involving a child in what gets accomplished in your life, and you are respecting his priorities and contributions, then you necessarily spend longer periods of time doing these things. Life is slower. There is a lot of discovery, a lot of fun, and a lot of time to see things from your child's POV.
Yes again I agree mamaduck thanks for writing well!

Im jumping out of this thread for now, off to the beach a few days


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by untomySelf_
*Child centredness in my understanding can occur in any home with any style of living.*
























Anyway, I just wanted to say that my CC friend is very joyful and free with her children. There is alotta joy in that house. Her 16 month old DD crawls to her when she wants to and mom is all open arms and loving.

This reminded me of something else... yesterday I went to see a one-woman show in LA (very off-off-off Broadway) in a small theater called *Cheerios in my Underwear*. Obviously, it's about motherhood.

It was OK. I was expecting it to be funnier.

Anyway, there were short scenes... her explaining motherhood to a friend... her multi-tasking and meeting the needs of her 4-yr old DD (trying to get out the door to preschool) and her baby... an *annoying-as-hell* bit of her imitating a brain-dead preschool teacher (very patronizing)... at the beginning of each scene, she'd read from statistics or the book _The Mask of Motherhood_.

That so annoyed me. Had I known this was a Mask of Motherhood type show, I would have skipped it. I know there are lots of women who feel let down by motherhood,





















and I do think it's because they are too child-centered. There she was, baking muffins. Who are the muffins for? The kids? Or because she thinks she needs to make muffins? Bake muffins because it brings you joy. Don't do it because you feel obligated. It's very odd, but I think most mothers focus too much on the kids needs, and forget themselves completely. Or they don't know how to meet both needs. I really don't know.

The big red flag to me was the room. The room was a big kids room... kids toys, kids art work, it looked like a preschool. Was it her home? Or a preschool? I think it was her home. So now her life is all about her kids... no wonder she's so frazzled.

Liedloff helped me to see that it is possible to have one's own interest and still have your children be a part of your life.

Anyway, back to my CC friend. She is one of the most happy and centered people I know. She loves being a SAHM. She's not one of these moms are who running around frazzled (like me some days) and frustrated with their child/ren.

I have another friend AP who LOVES to read and reads while her DD plays.







See? Everybody gets their needs met. She is also one of the most centered people I know.

*To me, being child centred means nothing more than being compassionate and respectful -- trying to see the world from her eyes. I would do this for any person that I love, so why not for my child?* That's exactly the way I feel.

Signed, still-figuring-it-all-out


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

That so annoyed me. Had I known this was a Mask of Motherhood type show, I would have skipped it. I know there are lots of women who feel let down by motherhood, and I do think it's because they are too child-centered.
OT:

Ya know -- I wouldn't say that I feel let down by motherhood, but it has definately been more difficult and more challenging than I could ever have predicted, and required much more sacrifice of myself than I realized it would. If you don't feel that way, then that is just fine. But I found the Mask of Motherhood to be *really* validating and helpful on a personal level. And my home is not too "child centered." I dunno -- the "Blah-blah-blahs" you put in your post *really* upset me a LOT. Because you are indicating that when real women struggle with real negative feelings, and we need to be honest and talk about it -- that we are blathering away about something that we shouldn't.


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## hydrangea (Jun 5, 2002)

I am really enjoying this conversation, and Mamaduck, I love what you wrote about CC!

I tend more toward CC, at least in my philosophy. In reality I am constantly struggling against my nervous and controlling tendencies. In fact, I have been wanting to reread this book. I need some inspiration.

I believe family-centered is much healthier for everyone involved than child-centered, when one is discussing wants alone. When discussing, children have more of them, and they are also unable to satisfy their needs and wants as easily as adults.

One issue that I do have with CC is that everything works for a traditional tribe in central America is not necessarily going to work for a family in NYC. The climate is different. The environment is different. The culture is different.

I think that as with anything, one should take what one likes and leave the rest. I take parts of many different philosophies and blend them into my own.

Piglet, TCS stands for Taking Children Seriously. Check out http://www.sarahlawrence.org/TCS.html for more information. It's very controversial. I believe it's one of those topics that gets very heated and shuts threads down fast here at mothering.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by mamaduck_
*Ya know -- I wouldn't say that I feel let down by motherhood, but it has definately been more difficult and more challenging than I could ever have predicted, and required much more sacrifice of myself than I realized it would.*
I * do * feel that way.

*If you don't feel that way, then that is just fine. But I found the Mask of Motherhood to be *really* validating and helpful on a personal level.*

That's great. A lot of women did. I have not read it, but I hate to hear people whine. *I am truly sorry*, but that is just my opinion. I went to see a show that I thought was a comedy. She did comedy with social commentary. Some of it was very good and the other part (I'm overwhelmed, life is a mess, etc...) I did not care for. Maaaaybe I didn't care for it because it reminded me of my house. _WHY is my son acting this way? Why is he biting me!?!?!_ Yeah, I know it's overwhelming... we all do, but I was expecting more spit-out-milk-from-my-nose humor that would help me see it (adventure called motherhood) from a different perspective. We all know that home life can be funny as well (as well as wanting to make us close the door and start crying out of frustration.)

*And my home is not too "child centered." I dunno -- the "Blah-blah-blahs" you put in your post *really* upset me a LOT.*

Again, I am truly sorry. Please view them for what they represent - nothing/air/nothing worth getting upset over.

*Because you are indicating that when real women struggle with real negative feelings, and we need to be honest and talk about it -- that we are blathering away about something that we shouldn't.*

Not true. I do think women NEED to do that. Women should be doing more of it.... being honest with each other, talking more... It's important. (We are currently all isolated islands living in nuclear families. It's frustrating. I would love to see more networking SAHMs.) I just don't care to participate in a pity party.... to focus on the negative and wallow in it. I'd rather DO SOMETHING... form a support group, actually support each other... make friends... be the tribe.

Oprah did a whole show on this 2 parts. Whole other thread. I know women are struggling. So am I on some days. Anyway, one set of women (e-mails) were applauding the show, saying somebody is finally speaking up. Another group (me) felt it was too negative. You can't please everyone. So where is the truth? Now did I feel those women were whining on that show were whining? No, they had legitimate complaints. But rather than have a pity-party (no thank you, I don't want to go), I'd rather see somebody (or a group of women) kick the Damned Door down. Naomi Wolf's book Misconceptions is an example of this. GREAT! Needs to be said.

Mamaduck, please let your emotions get caught up in my rambling post. I mean well. I'm not trying to hurt you or anybody else. If I did, I am sorry.

*I think that as with anything, one should take what one likes and leave the rest. I take parts of many different philosophies and blend them into my own.*






















(I tend to emphasize in 3s, sorry!)


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

Mamaduck, please let your emotions get caught up in my rambling post. I mean well. I'm not trying to hurt you or anybody else. If I did, I am sorry
I know -- I honestly know. And I respect most of what you've posted a great deal. I just feel that "blah-blah-blah" undermines the reality of women's needs to express feelings, and actually seek support. The effect is to silence women, and that is never okay. How can anyone seek support if they cannot express feelings? And some people need to do that more than others.

Other than that -- I actually thought what you said about child-centered parenting being esp. hard on mother's was dead-on.

I didn't mean to make such a big thing of this though.

Sorry for the big side-track though.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Thanks for the explanation, hydrangea. I have seen this acronym before, but never figured it out. I'll go check out the link.

And can I just remind everybody to please stay ontopic if you can, and if you have any issues with something someone has posted please tell ME and not post it to the thread. Thanks!


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I htink since I loosened up and started leaning more towards cc I have found a lot more joy in parenting. I have been able to enjoy my children for who they are and not be so burdened by this set oif rules that perfect AP parents lived by.

As for AP and toddlers. i guess i still consider myself to be APing my 6 year old as much as my six month old. I still seek to know her and understand her and what she needs and meet those needs in a timely manner. I think (IMHO) that I have gotten really good at interpreting my childrens signals, especially my baby's (at least much better than I was when I started







)and that makes telling the difference between a need and a want easier. When madeline (6) gets cranky I try to find the source of her crankiness rather than just ignoring it or trying to make her happy with a distraction. Is she hungry? hot? tired? maybe she is a little different becauseshe really has trouble saying to herself "hey I need a drink. I am thirsty and that is making me tired and cranky" - she has Sensory Itegration Disorder and her signals get mixed up a lot. SO I have to do a lot of detective work. By now I usually just try to bring it out of her "madz, Are you thirsty? when was the last time you had a drink? need a snack?" If she isn't willing to help herself some then she is on her own but I usually don't have to ask to many questions. But I usually only do this when her behavious effects me. So if she is being grumpy in my general vacinity or if her grumpiness has been hashed out on her sisters head. Does any of this make sense.

So in short, I do feel like we should still be attatchment parenting our older children but I don't think attatchment parenting means anything other than trying to know and understand your childrens needs. those are the reasons we breastfeed and co-sleep and delay seperation. So that we can seek to know and understand our babies better. those babies are kinda mysterious what with thier lack of a workinf vocabulary and all. We dpon't need to be so in tune with out older kids because we can just ask "hey, do you need a hug?" or hopefulkly after knowing someone for 4 years and living with them day in and day out we can just look and tell some things. I don't feel like knowing and understanding your child makes you child centered. I try to do the same for my husband and my friends.


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## Curious (Jan 4, 2002)

This is a very interesting thread. I've thought a lot about the comparisons and contrasts between AP and CC. I think AP's principles were gathered, maybe not directly, but somehow in response to child-raising practices promoted in earlier generations.

The biography of Harry Harlow describes how, after germ theory of disease was discovered, parents were advised to stop touching their children for fear of passing disease. If you really loved your children, you got them out of your bedroom and pat them on the head once a year. We became more industrialized. Homes began to sprawl. We grew detached. Slowly, people put together that affection and touch were necessary, and we had a renaissance largely but not exclusively associated with the writing of Dr. Sears, as well as through the mothers who never listened to the "Experts." The term AP probably comes mostly from Sears' prolific writing.

CC comes from another culture entirely.

Both provide a set of OPTIONS. It's up to us to decide which option to take. At a certain moment. At a certain stage. With a certain child. With a certain mood.

If I MUST do the dishes - the sink stinks - I do the dishes and if Dd needs some attention, I offer her a pot to scrup and she has a great time. But when I'm ready to call the work done, we'll head to the living room to play with toys and read books. Just like when Dh comes home when his work is done, we'll spend some time relaxing together. Bonding is an ongoing process. It moves on from breastfeeding and changes form. You can't rely on the practices of infancy to carry you through life. Any more than you can count on the thrill of the honeymoon to carry you through marriage.

If Dd asks to nurse, I'll say "I'd be happy to," just like if Dh asks me to make a favorite dish for dinner, I'll say the same thing. I make pancakes because she likes them, just like I make mashed potatoes for Dh because he likes them, even though I don't eat either. I will go to a concert with Dh to hear a group I don't care for, and he will sit while I comb the beach for shells, even though I don't share his taste in music and he thinks shell-hunting is boring. What adult will not do things for their family, if it doesn't directly serve them? An impossible to live with adult. I'm not saying to cater to every whim, but what of it if the kid enjoys muffin-making?

If Dd tries to push me off my chair because she wants to sit there, I explain that she has her own chair and we let people keep their chairs. But why not ask if she wants the purple shirt or the lizard shirt?

Doctrines on AP, CC, dare I mention TCS, are good to be well-familiar with. In my day to day life, I find the principle of _moderation_ to be a guiding force. I also think following your heart is helpful in balancing attention directed toward child, self, and family.


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## Robinmama (Dec 17, 2001)

I agree 100% Curious! I did not mean to try and shut down the thread by mentioning TCS. I just wanted to identify where I was coming from. To me, these are all different ideas and theories and sometimes one works better than another in a particular situation. Sometimes one theory works better between two particular people (like a mama and bebe).

People get "attached" (lol) to labels. I know a woman who still nurses her 1 year old on demand in the daytime







, but when baby was 6 months old she "ferberized" her (let her CIO.) To me, this violates something at the core of the attachment relationship! But because of her breastfeeding she looks/ talks/ walks like an attachment parent, although she absolutely is not. AP also has accessories: slings, cloth diapers, wooden toys. But these are really just details, the core is fostering an attachment that has a life long effect.

While I think that CC also fosters attachment, in my mind the main focus is on *community*, as opposed to one relationship. The child is part of an extended community relationship, and is an integral part of the family life (included in everything.)

I think that the term attachment parenting likely comes from Sears, but it has its source in "attachment disorder," which is a serious condition that can be a pre-cursor to even more serious mental illness -- though not always.

As for TCS, it has nothing to do with attachment and everything to do with discipline, which seemed to be the lurking issue inside those posts above about leaving the playgroup or wandering around the neighbourhood. I agree with Curious that moderation is the source of wisdom in all things, and parenting especially, and I really don't want to turn this into a tcs discussion.... In fact, I think that tcs is not allowed at these boards, not because of the subject itself but because of the way people (on both sides) seem to react. Ironically it tends to shut things down rather than open things up. But there are lots of sites on the internet about the theory. Some are pretty radical.

IMHO, if everyone just relaxed and listened to ther gut instincts, we would all be a lot healthier and happier!







Alas, that is not always possible.


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## thistle (Aug 10, 2002)

I am very much enjoying this thread. There has been some great discussion here. I really agree that a "take what you can and leave the rest" approach is the most practical. We do not live in Yequanna society where there are many eyes and hands to look after our toddlers. Our culture barely fosters the notion that you are responsible for your OWN children, much less the children of the "tribe".

An issue I have seen come up with every partneting style I have witnessed from babywising to AP to TCS is Dogmatism!!

People become so dogmatic about doing it "the right way" they sometimes put the theory over the needs of their children.

When we read about some style/thoery of parenting we are reading someone's memory of an experience. Yes, sometimes there is scienticif data to back things up, sometimes not, but it is all filtered through the author. We ALL have our biases and that cannot help but color how we describe things.

I am not saying that all styles are equally beneficial (I'm no Ezzo fan to be sure). I am more saying that ANY style of parenting can be oppressive to children and parents if the theory becomes more important than the child.

thistle


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## Pam_and_Abigail (Dec 2, 2002)

I have been trying to do as much AP as I can, despite feeling burnt out, because I fear that dd will suffer emotionally if I don't. There are times when I realize I'm not enjoying being a mom as much as I'd hoped, and times when I realize there is no "me" left. All my hobbies pretty much involve motherhood. Look where I am when I have a break:
- talking or reading about cloth diapers
- reading parenting books
- making toys for my dd
And even when she's awake, I often catch myself, intstead of playing with her now, I am doing homework for later, ie reading "Kids are worth it" by Barbara Coloroso.
But I still beat myself up on the inside trying to be AP enough. DD is 8 months now. She has been crawling for some time. She will probably walk early. I don't get housework done. The place is a mess. Why? Because if dd is awake, I am playing with her. I sit on the floor. We play. I struggle with guilt when I don't feel like I am interacting with her enough. Sometimes I start to space out, and I realize that even though she's right next to me, I've been ignoring her. She will crawl away from me to play with something else. Over the past few months, I have been slowly giving her a longer "leash", while still trying to make her feel valued enough to be played with. I can leave her to play while I quickly throw in the laundry, or even make a quick snack. Sometimes she lets me know I am needed, and I come and stay close. She is currently getting her first tooth, so there's been a lot of contact.

I am trying to dance a delicate balance between letting her explore her world, but keep her safe. We've almost babyproofed enough, but she still finds stuff. Like dustbunnies. And I can't vacuum bc I'm playing with her. Or she's asleep, and it wakes her.

This post has been great, and I'm not finished reading yet. I've never heard of cc until now. I think that what might work for me is to ease from AP to CC with age. DD is still pretty young, but I do sometimes worry that ap will make her self-centered, or "spoiled". My step-niece is 3 and lives with my dad and step-mom. Every morning she mops all the floors. It is the chore she is responsible for. She's been doing it for half a year. Then she and Nana usually bake. I like the idea of having dd help out with housework later on.
One part of cc I don't think I like/understand is not congratulating them. I don't say "good girl" I say "good job". Why is this bad?

Phew. I've said a lot, and it may not make sense.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Pam& - I don't do as much housework as I would if I didn't have a baby, that's for sure, but I really don't find it hard to do the basics with a babe. Actually, it got alot easier when DD was able to be held in the hip carry position, b/c before that her being in the sling in cradle hold made it tough for me to do laundry, clean countertops, do dishes, etc. But since she was about 5 months she loved to sit on my hip. I use either my Maya or Hip Hammock and she LOVES it when I vaccuum! I can also wipe down countertops, put dishes in the dishwasher (or take them out), so laundry, sweep, etc.

I don't consider myself "CC". I think maybe what I do falls under "AP" b/c I won't ignore her when she needs me, and I don't have any swings or bouncy seat things to put her in, so carrying her while I do that work really works and keeps her happy! I guess what I'm trying to say is that you should be able to do the basic things you need to do around the house, carry your baby (keeping her calm and interested), and not have to feel guilty about it! (guilt doesn't do anybody any good!).

(PS - I'm reading "Kids are Worth It" right now, too!








)


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## Laurel (Jan 30, 2002)

I haven't had time to read every post in this thread, so forgive me if I repeat something. This post just caught my eye.

***I struggle with guilt when I don't feel like I am interacting with her enough. Sometimes I start to space out, and I realize that even though she's right next to me, I've been ignoring her.***

I guess that's why I enjoyed reading TCC. I still go back and forth about what the balance should be in my own relationships with ds. But TCC gave me permission to back off a little bit and let ds live his own life occasionally. I think it's a good thing for an older baby to begin to experience some solitary time (provided they are enjoying that time, of course). With my ds, it's very little, because he craves almost constant interaction--but there are moments when I see that he is playing by himself and allow him to do that, and allow myself to enjoy a few moments to myself, even if it's only 2-3 minutes.

Like Piglet said, my ds also LOVES to "help" with chores, and it was TCC that encouraged me to include him in this part of my adult world. He loves to be worn on my hip while I'm going about my daily routines. Now that he's more mobile, he also loves to be down and around as well. He really likes to stand up holding onto the door of the dryer while I load or unload the clothes. He would much rather do ANY of these things than have me sit and play with him on the floor. I'm not big on housework, but it's been more motivating to look at it as quality time with ds.

***One part of cc I don't think I like/understand is not congratulating them. I don't say "good girl" I say "good job". Why is this bad?***

I was recently reading the book, "Whole Child, Whole Parent" by Polly Berrien Berends. She discusses this same phenomenon, but in different words from TCC. She says that by calling attention to an act, we actually distract the child from what they were attempting to do. A child who is getting praise for something like standing or taking a few steps becomes so involved in the praise that s/he can't concentrate on walking. Her way of approaching praise, which I have LOVED and tried to incorporate, is to focus on the intrinsic reward the child gets from doing whatever it was s/he was doing. She talks about turning it into a celebration of joy and gratitude rather than into praise. For example, a child who is thrilled about being able to take a step isn't thinking, "Look at me, I'm so wonderful, I can walk!" That child is thinking, "I took a step! Look what I can see and where I can go! Isn't it so wonderful that this happiness is possible for me?!" When ds does something wonderful, I try to focus on things like that. I might say, "Oh, wow, you can reach the piano keys! What fun noises you can make!" (Or something like that.) I will do this instead of telling him what a big boy he is or how neat it is that he has learned how to pull himself up to the piano. I try to focus on helping the child identify the joy and wonder of discovery.

I still can't resist telling him how cute he is, though!


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## galadriel (Jan 21, 2003)

I just finished reading TCC, so I am grateful for this thread. I wish Liedloff had another chapter called "Specific ways to work TCC into your modern American Life"-- without a tribe, without routine physical work (loading the dishwasher, washing machine, and vacuuming? That's it?), living on a busy commuter thoroughfare in the suburbs, having had a c-section?

My daughter already is 10 weeks old, and sometimes she hates being in the sling. And I can't figure out how to get her to nurse in it, so there goes half my CC fantasy.

The other BIG part of the CC is how you were raised yourself, and how the deficits of your own in-arms period are affecting your life and your parenting. I mean, the book was written by a psychotherapist. My in-arms phase, I am pretty sure, was not very centering, so wouldn't I need to identify and work through whatever weirdness I had before I could be an effective CC parent?

Finally, I also find it interesting that she talks about Meditation and ritual as ways to enlightenment (for lack of a better word) and as the path back to your continuum.

AP has never been enough for me-- I never felt right with a stroller, for instance, which is not an AP issue. I've already fawned over my daughter so much that she already wants to be the center of attention in any group. Our society in such a mess.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

. I wish Liedloff had another chapter called "Specific ways to work TCC into your modern American Life"-- without a tribe,
I understand why you wish this, but it would bother me if she tried to give specific parenting advice. She was not a mother.


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Great thread, mamas ...









Small comment ... have found that baby#3 is CC parented by default, just because I no longer have the time to focus directly on him and chase him around with that danged ball or keep up the annoying narrative.

You know what? He's all those things that (I think it was Tanibani) described her baby as, resourceful, resilient ... competent in ways #1 definitely isn't and #2 only slightly is.

Sometimes it's just a matter of time.


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## Laurel (Jan 30, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Ubertulip_
[My daughter already is 10 weeks old, and sometimes she hates being in the sling.
Give her time. My ds hated the sling at first. He could not stand the cradle hold. He tolerated the Kangaroo carry for short periods of time, and didn't come to really like being worn until he was old enough for the hip carry. Now we couldn't live w/o our sling!

As boring as physical chores are for us adults, I've found that they are what my ds loves best. He loved riding along with me while I did dishes or laundry. Now that he's crawling and starting to walk, he still loves to be right in the middle of things when I'm loading the dishwasher or emptying the dryer. He is still in the sling for vacuuming, as he's afraid of the noise.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

I am not a labler and I am starting to ignore books







. I see that I work both CC and AP ways.

This is a very interesting topic. I've learned alot!


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## mama-mukti (Mar 7, 2002)

I'd like to say a little bit more about CC and AP.

I think *some* people interpret AP to mean child-centered parenting or permissive parenting and then they are "parented-out" when their little ones get past the baby-wearing stage.

To me AP is a direct response to the mainstream, "Cry-It-Out" crowd and NOT a directive to parents to "over-parent".

I took a cue from my daughter and started giving her independence when she started to crawl and then, walk. She is now 17 months old. She does not always WANT me to play with her - but she does want me around or to at least know where I am while she has imaginative play of her own.

I consider one of my chief roles in her life right now to be that of an observer that hovers around and lets her explore but keeps her from running out in traffic or walking off into the deep-end of the pool. I am always there to "touch base" and we hug, laugh, nurse, etc. But I have noticed that she doesn't always NEED me as she used to ALL the time.

It is always interesting to me to see the transition come over her at night when she is tired and cranky - she goes from self-assured toddler to primal baby. I find that nursing helps to bridge this gap for her.

I really liked the book "The Emotional Life of the Toddler" by Alicia Lieberman. It wasn't AP or non-AP - it just explains in great detail the emotinal development of the toddler. It helped me to understand what DD must be going through in her little mind.

Any more thoughts?


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## aitara (Jun 5, 2003)

Wonderful thread!

I had heard of cc, but didn't know what it was - haven't had time to look into it yet.
I was a Montessori preschool teacher before a sahm, and I want to let you all know that cc sounds like it has alot in common with Montessori philosophy, judging from what I've read in this post.
ex: handling fragile objects, exploring the environment, child shares responsibility for care of the environment, no exaggerated praise, etc.
I'm curious and want to read more . .. .
What book do you recommend most? Is it the "Our Babies Ourselves" by Liedloff the only one?


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

The Continuum Concept is written by Liedolff

Our Babies ourselves is Merdith Small


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## MelissaEvans (Jan 9, 2003)

I enjoyed both books. =)

Here's my take on things:
AP = trusting that your baby's not trying to manipulate you, step up to the plate and be a parent, respond, be there in close contact, and bond.
Baby Wise = make the baby as convenient as possible so you can go about your life.
CC = trust that the baby is social, will live up to your expectations, and do things appropriate to his/her abilities and needs, go about your life so the baby can learn what will be expected of him/her later

It amazes/amuses me how many things BW tries to "fix" to make your life eaiser that are accomplished using CC type ideas. And the kid knows s/he's loved!

The safety thing also comes up in Montessouri (sp) teachings if I remember right. They let the kids use real knives and discourage fairy tales and such. On the other hand, the group of people Jane was observing didn't have things like roads and cars and such. I think there's a happy medium. I don't follow my DS around trying to catch him each time he falls, but I don't let him into the bathroom unattended (still haven't cleaned out the cabinets in there).

When DS started rolling over really well, I got scared about him falling out of bed. (We still use the bed as it came, no mattress on the floor). So I got one of those bed-gate thingyies. But it was a toy to DS, he'd crawl over to it and pull himself up. Since it was more dangerous to have him fall head over heals outta bed (and I just finished reading TCC), I removed it. But I was still scared, so I put pillows on the floor for him to fall onto (since I really did expect him to fall). Guess what! He *did* fall - becuase he was trying to reach for the pillows. Her concept of what you expect is what you're going to get seemed to work pretty well. So I try not to tell him, "if you do this, then that bad thing's going to happen," becuase it kinda shows that I expect him to do "this." If I don't want him to do something, I tell him he can't and give him something else he can do.

When he does fall, I look at him. If he cries, I attend to him; if not, we both go back to whatever we were doing. It's funny becuase my mom talks about how her DS (my li'l brother) would bonk his head, look around to see if anyone was watching, and if someone was then he'd turn on the faucet. So she brags about looking at him from the corner of her eyes. And then when my DS was getting around, whenever he'd nearly fall or whatever, she'd do this huge gasp and reach for him and react a lot! I had to ask her to stop it, I don't want to have to look at DS from the corner of my eyes! =)

The over-praising I think can be bad. I've tried to remove "good boy" from my vocabulary. He's good because he's him and I love him. He does amazing things and I smile and ask him how he felt doing it (he's only 8.5mo so it's just practice for now)

I'm done babbling. Happy mothering! =)


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by MelissaEvans_
*And then when my DS was getting around, whenever he'd nearly fall or whatever, she'd do this huge gasp and reach for him and react a lot! I had to ask her to stop it, I don't want to have to look at DS from the corner of my eyes! =)
*
My mom said she is much more protective of Cole and hovers around him a lot more than she did with me. She said it's probably because she's getting to be an old mother hen. :LOL I personally think it' because she has strong tender grandmotherly feelings for him and a lot more time to focus on him than she did on me.

I was working in the garden the other day and Cole was next to me, pulling up weeds and threatening the occasional plant that was supposed to be there. We were out there for a while, both of us happy, and then my mom came out and was like, "Oh no, he's going to pull up the flowers!" Well, he had been there for 10 minutes and hadn't pulled any up yet, but anyway - I admit it was a possibility. But, *as I told her several times,* I didn't care if he pulled up a few flowers - it's heavily planted and could use some thinning, actually. But she wouldn't listen to me! She kept taking his hands away and picking him up and moving him a few feet away and telling him not to touch anything!







Of course he would crawl right back and start messing with the plants again, and my mom would move him again... finally I had to stop working in the garden because I couldn't stand seeing him restrained like that.

I try to have a life to involve him in







but I have to admit, I often use him as an excuse to play blocks on the floor and not do the dishes.


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## kakies (Aug 8, 2002)

I really enjoyed the continuum concept. I started including more cc ideas in my parenting since dd turned 1yo. I still do a lot of ap but I was kind of becoming too child-centered before I read the cc book. I felt something was wrong but I didn't know how to go from the infant stage to the toddler stage with ap alone.

I have learned to trust dd more in the sense that I realize that she has instincts/reflexes that need to be put into practice in order for her to learn how to take care of herself.

I let her explore things that sometimes seem dangerous but I feel that if she doesn't learn to deal with different situations on her own then if she happens to find herself in a new or dangerous situation and I'm not there to protect her she will not be ready and the risk will be grater. Am I making sense?

From the way the Yequanas live they don't go around teaching the children how to do things. The children first observe the elders and when they are ready to explore they learn things by imitation. I let dd do this and I expect her to.

For example, she sees me eating almonds. She sees how I carefully chew them before I swallow then one day she decides to do it herself. This was when she was just a little over 13mo + she had her front teeth. I only commented to her that she had to chew it well and slowly ( I was afraid) but I projected confidence. I was truly suprised to see that she slowly scraped the almond little by little until she ate it all. Since then she has learned to be careful with the things that she eats and if they are hard she come up to me and say "chew slow?, chew slow?", then I say "yes it is hard so chew slow".

Many people might think that I am crazy but I think that if she ever happens to put something in her mouth or another child feeds her something and I didn't notice it she will be more prepared and will know what to do with it.

I let her play with coins also. She sometimes wants to put them in her mouth and I quickly offer her the piggy bank and show her where they are supposed to go. I try not to over react because I have noticed that she will try do it again as if she were questioning "what's the big deal, mom?"

I also let her walk up and down slopes (where we live there are many hills) so the sidewalks have slopes. Sometimes she starts to speed up when going down a slope and even though I feel like grabbing her I simply get a little closer and say slower like mommy. She has learned very well and when she feels like she is about to loose her balance she either stops or say "slow,slow" to herself and makes it down the hill without loosing a step. I think this is much safer then trying to chase her down and not making it on time... ending up with a few stitches and a 'slope phoebea' (sp?)

The same thing goes for when I mop the floor. From experience she knows what it's like slip







but now she is aware of her body and balance and I trust her to walk on a slightly damp floor. She has mastered this very well ( I only let her do this when she is barefoot though, so she can sence the floor well). And she will go along saying "slow,slow".

I feel that these are very valuable lessons that will avoid many accidents because she is aware of her environment and she knows that there are potential dangers at home and out. She also knows that there are ways of dealing with them and she doesn't need me to be her eyes and ears all the time.

I am still vigilant but just to a certain point. I don't interfere I just might guide her a little by setting an example. I think being a mother is about teaching the child how to deal with the world with its many shapes, forms and situations... not about childproofing the world.

I learned this through the continuum concept and it's a good thing I did 'cause I was just about to go out there and childproof the world.'









I say this through my own experience. We started raising her in 'lah, lah land' were everything was perfect, harmless and childfriendly but then we sort of moved over to the 'real world'. Ironically to our amazement it 'IS' a safer place to be.


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## Dodo (Apr 10, 2002)

I've often wondered how to mop the floor around dd now that she is no longer interested in sitting in a backpack. I had never thought about teaching her about balance! Thanks for the tip, Kakies.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Just because some tribe in an exotic place does it, and for us it's a novel idea, does that make it necessarily better? I personally enjoy lots of child-centered interaction with my dd. I wanted a little one so badly and LOVE being able to read to her, take her to kid activities, have her "help" me with chores and cooking. As far as carrying her around, it's a lovely idea but with my bad back it was not realistic. Although I did enjoy seeing babies carried in India in the villages in slings. Normally they were not just carried by the mother, but by an older sibling, an aunt, or a grandmother. I think we can put too much pressure on ourselves to do what a village or extended family normally would. I am only one person.

As far as safety goes, my MIL thinks I'm really too obsessed with it. Maybe I am but it's kept my dd safe and alive. In India they don't use carseats (just started importing them for the well-to-do in the last 5 years)! They just let the child ride in mom's lap, or even on a motorcycle. One crash and the child is dead. There's no learning curve. They live on the second story of a house with a large concrete stairwell. The door to the stairwell was always open and no one cared about getting a gate or closing the door as I kept suggesting. They thought I was nuts for asking. So I left my 12 mos. old in the care of MIL and next thing I knew dd was down the stairs and heading towards the street because MIL didn't keep an eye on her!! In like the 5 mins. that it took me to use the bathroom. Third thing is MIL allowed her to climb on the kitchen table and I kept asking them not to do that. So dd fell off and hit her head on the marble floor. Is this what they mean in CC by not being so protective of the child? I think they used the example of cooking fires and latrines. I'm not sold on this at all. Now I'm not going to put a helmet on my baby when it's learning to walk but you def. need to be watchful and somewhat protective.

Darshani


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## jenni (Oct 7, 2002)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
. I wish Liedloff had another chapter called "Specific ways to work TCC into your modern American Life"-- without a tribe,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

_Originally posted by mamaduck_
*I understand why you wish this, but it would bother me if she tried to give specific parenting advice. She was not a mother.*
Just browsing this thread, which is very interesting. I have just finished the book myself, and the final chapter is Putting Continuum Principles Back to Work ....it is here she does give some fairly specific advice on how to integrate the principles into Western life. She also discusses ways in which one can heal their own 'Continuum deprived' childhood.

I understand what you mean, Mamaduck, about someone who is not a mother giving mothering advice, but really, the whole book is what could be described as a sort of mothering manual, albeit a very alternative and somewhat radical one for the palate of our society. She does see western society as, well, f*cked up and out of balance, and I agree. And with that thought, having a baby, at least in this society, does not make one a 'mother'. From the depth and breadth of her (Liedoff's) experience, I believe she is quite qualified to give advice.

After finishing the book and before coming across this thread, the thought occurred to me that AP might have been modeled after the concepts in the book. I think they are quite similar, except that AP can seem to be a little *too* child-centered, which Leidoff thinks can be detrimental to the maturing of the individual.

I'm quite taken by the ideas presented myself. I read it quickly, and plan to re-read it a little more slowly to absorb it entirely.


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## milk4two (Mar 20, 2003)

Quote:

*I understand why you wish this, but it would bother me if she tried to give specific parenting advice. She was not a mother.*
Neither was she an anthropologist, and as far as I know her observations were never confirmed by anyone else. Just thought I'd throw that out there.


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## MelissaEvans (Jan 9, 2003)

There was a review on Amazon about Jane not being a professional in this field and the reviewer suggested Our Babies, Our Selves. So I got them both. OB,OS was written by a scientist, but I felt the ideas were pretty darn similar. Or at least teh reported lifestlyes of other cultures. Jane puts in her speculation about why things are and that's very debatable (do we really like roller coasters because our moms were too gentle?), but both promote cosleeping, nursing, carrying and such; many in OB,OS have less child-centered families as well.

Quote:

Just because some tribe in an exotic place does it, and for us it's a novel idea, does that make it necessarily better?
No, I don't think so either. I think it just makes us really think about choices we make. Are they really better, or do we accept them just becuase that's all we've known? Is there an alternative that's better, but different so harder to consider?

And I firmly believe in car seats too. =) DS is 8.5 mo and has been over 20lbs for a few months. But in this state, babies aren't allowed to go forward facing until they're >1yr AND >20lbs. So even though he looks like a 12mo and is bigger than many 12mo, he's still rear facing. Can't wait until October! =)

I never read the book, but in Three in a Bed (Dian Johnson I think), she mentions a book or essay about being in love with the tribe. Anyone else remember this? I borrowed this book from LLL, so I can't look it up.


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## granolamom (Sep 30, 2002)

When I first became a mama 19 years ago I had never heard the terms AP or CC...

But if I think back on all I did or didn't do, I think I did and still do lean more towards CC....

My kids were just part of our family unit.. They did what we did. Baking bread, growing herbs, making sculptures, reading, playing card, listening to music,baking cookies .... The list goes on and on.
Our kids have an are part of our community...The community of our home, our neighborhood andI hope the world. THey have alaways been involved in what was going on, what ever that may be.....

Of course I played games, made up plays, painted, acted silly with them. But with four I quickly learned that they much more enjoyed playing with each other. They were each others own best friends, play mates, partners in crime!!!!!

I nursed on demand up until a certain time. And I even tandemed. But to me, and this only my opinion, if my 2 year old wanted to nurse while I was kneading bread..... I wouldn't sop what i was doing and nurse that very second. Most likely I would say," I would love to nursey and if you help me finish making our bread we can sit down and listen to music and cuddle while you nurse"

I am sure I made and will still make many mistakes. The one thing I used in determining what to do for my kids was the simple question, " If I ________________, will my child feel treasured, respected and loved"

Peace to you all,

Granolamom


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Thanks to all of you for this great post! I have been coming here for the past month because I'm frustrated by my parenting style. My daughter is 22 months old and I feel that our home is TOO child centered. Our all and everything revolves around her and I don't think this is how I want to raise her. I want her to be an equal part of our family, part of our community and I don't want her to be "spoiled". I was trying to get some help here but this is the first thread that really helped me. Mostly, I'm glad to hear that there are other parents here that feel that a family can be child centered to a fault. I was beginning to think this was a taboo subject here. Thanks.
I'm going to get CC from the library. I have known about the book for a long time but the descriptions I heard made me think it was more baby/child centered than AP - not where I wanted to go. Any additional resources for adapting AP to a less child centered home (for a toddler who was raised in a mostly AP way) would be appreciated.


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## galadriel (Jan 21, 2003)

I really loved what you had to say--

Quote:

I think being a mother is about teaching the child how to deal with the world with its many shapes, forms and situations... not about childproofing the world.
That is a great perspective and something really valuable to get out of the book, and very applicable to our society.

Quote:

Just because some tribe in an exotic place does it, and for us it's a novel idea, does that make it necessarily better?
A tribe in a faraway place does it, yes-- but it isn't a novel idea to have community and physical work to do and not to create an unnatural "cult of childhood". I think "we" (in western society) have only been making childhood this overly precious, unatural thing to be tended to with toys and cooing for hours on end, since Victorian times. That's when books like Pooh, Alice in Wonderland, and Peter Pan grew out of the cultural climate and created this idea of sunshine, lollipops and rainbows around children all the time.

I think a blissful childhood really would be to be a young person engaged in learning from the people and places around me in a natural way. After all, to create healthy self-esteem in our children (and therefore one of their most reliable routes to joy) is to give them room to experience their own triumphs and emotions (without us supplying the "oooh, look what you can do!!!" all the time), and simply being always available when they need us.

IMO, as far as parenting, the Yequana life probably is better-- not because it is exotic, or novel-- but because it is perhaps more balanced. In general, our society is really out of balance, especially in regard to our eating and working habits, and this is inextricably related to our parenting habits. I think here in the MDC community, folks are a bit more balanced than the average westerner, simply because we might think about what we're doing a bit more. In this world, I think the effort alone is excellent progress.


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## Dodo (Apr 10, 2002)

Re: The cult of childhood

Steven Pinker's The Blank Slate refers to a list of human universals, a list that includes children's music, children's toys and baby talk.

Recent anthropological and sociobiological work discredit the idea that childhood is a new concept.

So a CC ideal wouldn't be anti-childhood, but anti-cult.

p.s. HannahSims, are you me? It would seem that we both have 21-month-old crazy people running our lives.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

T I love Steven Pinker! Got the Blank Slate for Xmas, but have I had a chance to read it yet? Ha! You've motivated me to pick it up again.


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## Curious (Jan 4, 2002)

Thinking about this as the thread progresses, I guess the upshot in my life was that AP was a great guide for listening to my instincts, CC gave me a way to make Dd a part of our life rather than a separate project that would take from all else.

For a long time I felt awful every time I took my focus away from her to wash the dishes. But washing the dishes, tedious as it sounds, makes the house nicer for everyone.

And for Dd, it was just as much fun to watch, as any baby game I might play, which I learned from seeing her. CC helped me see the world more from her viewpoint as to what might be enjoyable. Having Mom wash the dishes sounded like no fun to me, but for Dd it was a chance to be in the sling, listen to new sounds, see water splash, see soap bubbles, see the items moved from one place to another, see the dirty stuff swirl down the drain...pretty good stuff actually.

This was going to be a short post...much of what we are encouraged to offer our children, is directed toward the adult view of what our kids might enjoy or need. But our kids, as we all know, have a much different perspective.

Yesterday we took Dd for a walk on a nature trail. Dh went on a trip to Disneyworld with his brother and family, incl. his niece who was then about Dd's age. Dd swore that Dd had as great a time on the nature trail as his niece had at Disneyworld.

But no one makes Big Money saying take your kid walking on a nature trail.


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## Dodo (Apr 10, 2002)

I couldn't get through The Blank Slate. I found it way too depressing. It made me question why I parent the way I do. Do I do it for moral reasons or for some hope that dd will be a better person for it? Anyway, if you do read it, maybe you should read it in tandem with Mother Nature by Sarah Hrdy, which talks about the different trajectories a primate's life can take based on maternal investment.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Bumping up... for the "CC(ish)" thread.







(Thanks Kakies!)


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## Ravin (Mar 19, 2002)

I like to think I'm CC w/ a hefty dose of cultural relevance thrown in. I think CC ties in w/ the unschooling mentality as well.

One thing that I can really see a difference in is dealing w/ the play area at the mall. I sit on the bench, read a book or chat, and periodically glance up at DD. If she's out of sight I might stand up and locate her. If she gets upset/frustrated, falls and is upset by it (sometimes she is either because it hurt or made her mad, and sometimes she isn't) or has a negative run-in w/ another child and cries, I intercede and comfort her. If she starts messing w/ peoples' stuff, poking a baby, or exiting the play area, I grab her and relocate/redirect her. But otherwise I sit there and let her play.

Other people I see in the play area react quite differently. They follow their crawlers (and even toddling walkers) around, staying w/in a foot or two. They help them up on things, over things...they won't let them figure ANYTHING out for themselves. I sometimes show DD a way to do something she can't figure out that's frustrating her, but often as not she finds some different way to do it on her own anyway. I do watch her quite a bit, but because I find it entertaining and I'm in the mood to do so. Periodically she'll look over at me to catch my eye and we smile at each other, but she'll go out of site in the play equipment (in the open sided box shape or the crawl-thru or some such) for minutes at a time, busy interacting w/ the other kids and paying me no nevermind.

At home I can't walk in the next room w/out her fussing. She thrives on interaction w/ other children, especially older ones. So I seek out situations where that happens. I'm starting back to school soon, and she'll be cared for in a home care situation w/ other kids of varying preschool ages. It's a situation I think she'll fare much better in than she would w/ just a solo provider. She doesn't even tolerate being left alone w/ DH for long, but if other kids are around she does fine.

I see AP as being about meeting childrens' needs rather than making them secondary to adult needs. I see CC as making this fit in w/ meeting adult needs as well. I'm going to include her in my life, but not give up on my life.

My obsession w/ homeschooling, cloth diapers, etc. vastly predates actually having a child, so I can't really blame it on DD. Actually having her has alleviated it all somewhat!

And I enjoy playing w/ DD and reading to her, but only do these things when I'm in the mood to do so. If I'm doing dishes or cooking, she may get into the tupperware cupboard, stand at the edge of the dishwasher and watch, sit in her highchair playing w/ a cup or spoon, or be on my back or hip if that's where she really wants/needs to be.

DH is a lot more "keep her out of stuff" minded. I go along w/ it as much as I do only because I don't want to clean up the aftermath of, for example, DD pulling half the DVD's off the rack, not because I particularly don't want her into them (she can't open the cases yet so won't damage them and they certainly aren't going to hurt her). I let her get into the utility drawer w/ the hammer in it, I just moved the nails to a drawer out of her reach. I could go on. We don't gate the stairs, but I admit I do sit at the foot of them while she's exploring them. Maybe I should back off...


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## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

This is an interesting subject! I've always been a little wary of TCC, because I (like a PP) somewhat mistakenly viewed it as too hands-off. It reminded me of a friend who was not very AP who read a TCC-like book. She became big on leaving her young infant to play by himself all the time, and was opposed to things like helping the baby to stand, etc.

I think actually that I do have some TCC-like component to my parenting, though I still see myself as more AP/child-centered, though not excessively so. My son is only 14 months, though. I do let him play alone or play with what he wants when he picks up random objects. But I also engage him with toys or objects or books and I do try to focus on him a lot. He's going through a stage where he is obsessed with books and will bring them to us. Sometimes it is very inconvenient (food cooking on the stove) but whenever I can, I _do_ stop and read to him. But I can see as he gets older, being more likely to ask him to wait to read and can he help me with what I am doing.

So I agree with Piglet (big surprise!) and other PPs about AP-child-centeredness being a thing of infancy/early toddlerhood and AP-TCC being a thing of older toddlerhood/young childhood. And there is a gentle transition between the two.

Although one thing -- the allowing kids to handle dangerous objects makes me nervous! I allow DS to climb the stairs, but only when we are there. I've aggressively babyproofed. I allow him to explore his environment but I am vigilent and when he shows any signs of endangering himself, I remove either him or the object from the situation. I've taken care of too many kids with impacted foreign bodies, severe burns, drownings, etc. to not be that way! I would love for DS to learn early to be careful around candles, but not at the expense of permanent scarring from his self-taught "lesson!" Hope I've just been misinterpreting the recs from TCC.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Wow, this is an old thread, LOL - still great, though! So much of what has been said here resonates with me. I agree that AP and TCC are very similar in infancy. Honestly, I consider myself "AP" and I incorporate lots of TCC ideas now that DC is a toddler. Put into practice with parenting, it just seems like a different "style" of AP or a different expectation of "how" you're "supposed" to parent your children. For us, this is more about finding things that we all enjoy and doing things together as opposed to centering our day on just children's activities. I've known some parents who seem to be working *for* their children and that's just doesn't sit right with how I want our family to be (I wonder if the positive movement towards looking at parenting as a job has anything to do with this).

The trust/expectations thing is still really important for us as well. We actively encourage DC to work through frustrations and try new things. Now, we do regulate certain safety things but I try really hard to be aware of what the risks are before I restrict something, yk?

Another big message we've taken from CC is that children are social and are motivated to fit in. I see this VERY clearly in my own child.


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## CajunMama (Jun 24, 2003)

I don't have anything meaningful to add, I just want to thank you for having a great discussion about these issues. I have really learned quite a bit, and now want to know more about CC. It seems that DH and I are doing some of those things instictively ( like having DS be a part of our lives, not focusing our lives on him) so I am curious to find out more.

Thank you


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## daekini (Jun 17, 2004)

Hello,
I'm pleased to find this thread.. I just got the CC book, and I'm wondering if anyone has read good AP books? I've seen the book list, but had a hard time figuring out which books were appropriate. My dd is nearly 11 months old, and I'm trying to make up for lost time and learn about/incorporate some of these methods... though instinctively I believe I've been a combination of both CC and AP...

BTW, when I sought advice from our pediatrician about parenting (should have known better than to do that...), I was shocked at the copy of "babywise" I was handed and told I should follow religiously!

oh, well...


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## leila1213 (Sep 15, 2006)

I know this is extremely old but I want to read it, bumping/subbing.


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