# Are Target, Sears, K-Mart, Winn Dixie, etc. nearly as bad as Wal-Mart?



## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

I totally get why Wal-Mart is a horrible place to shop (and I haven't even seen those movies...).

But what I don't get is why some of the other large stores aren't just as bad. Or almost as bad.

I live in a small city, with just one mall really, tons of high class and exclusive shopping (SAKS Fifth Avenue & up) and a limited amount of reasonably priced places to shop.

Is it ethically okay to shop at Target or K-Mart, if not Wal-Mart? Are these stores any better or would you say that all large stores should be completely off limits to an ethically minded family? I think that in retail, most employees are paid horrible wages with poor or no benefits to boot.

I know in Canada the grocery stores were all unionized and you could actually make $25 an hour working as a cashier at Safeway and have all kinds of great union benefits. In the USA, I was shocked to find out that grocery store cashiers only make $6 to $9 an hour (in the two states I've lived) and without union assistance, I doubt they get many if any benefits.

I guess I'm asking a lot of questions here but I'm curious about everyone's thoughts on this overall theme.

Thank you in advance.


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## swimswamswum (Oct 26, 2005)

Your question is an excellent one. We've struggled with it too.
I think Wal-mart is the worst of all of the "big boxes" as far as low wages, no benefits, price-fixing, exploitative foreign labor, etc. are concerned.

I think a major part of the question depends on your politics. I really think that all people, regardless of political orientation, should avoid Walmart because its practices really do hurt all of us.

If you are left-leaning, there is a great website called buyblue (www.buyblue.org) where you can see how much companies give to which political party. I think they are trying to include more info about labor practices and benefits, but haven't done so yet. I know in Michigan, where I am that some grocery stores (and a regional big box chain- Meijer) ARE unionized- you can ask around and shop at those. The funny thing about Meijer is that it isn't unionized everywhere and the corporation supports many conservative organizations. I guess what I am trying to say is it is really complicated.

Also, if you support a woman's right to birth control, you might want to reconsider shopping at Target (and have another reason not to go to Walmart) because they are allowing their pharmacists to "morally object" to filling scripts for BC and plan B (the after-morning pill).

I think it comes down to trying to make mindful purchases which really is not easy. If you are concerned about whether labor is unionized, you can probably get a list of "labor friendly" stores from one of the big unions in your area.


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## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

I'm also in MI and i think that it is important to shop at Meijer because while they are far from perfect, they are better than walmart--they do not break unions, they tend to apy a bit better, and they don't make a general practice of putting their suppliers out of business with deceptive pricing tactics--and Meijer is under significant pressure right now, mostly from Wal-Mart. I'd much rather have smaller, imperfect chain stay in business that toss up my hands cuz they're all bad and let Wal-mart put everyone else out of business.

It's ridiculous for a company to be wealtheir than most nations on the planet, and to have more political clout.


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## Artisan (Aug 24, 2002)

ANY large corporation will have policies you disagree with. ANY one. But places like Target are so much better than Wal-mart, for a litany of reasons. They allow employees to work full time. A much high percentage of employees are paid living wages and receive benefits. Target has not been prosecuted by the department of labor for violations like Wal-mart has. Target actually locates in urban areas as well as rural areas, unlike Wal-mart. Target pays municipal taxes, unlike Wal-mart. Target does not force vendors into contracts like Wal-mart does. I could go on ad nauseum.


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## mama_kass (Jan 11, 2003)

DH asked a worker at WM was it true that they are not paid a living wage and were not offered a full time position. The employee told him that it is all propoganda. I really don't know. Has anyone else talked to a Wal Mart worker?


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_kass*
DH asked a worker at WM was it true that they are not paid a living wage and were not offered a full time position. The employee told him that it is all propoganda. I really don't know. Has anyone else talked to a Wal Mart worker?

Well, Barbara Ehrenreich *was* a Wal-Mart worker in her book, Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/080...books&v=glance

I am sure there are LOTS of people who love working for Wal-Mart. There are also children who *need* formula. But I think, statistically, the preponderance of evidence points to Wal-Mart *not* paying a living wage to their rank and file employees, allowing discrimination and a variety of other ills.


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

While no large corporation is perfect, and most businesses have some aspects of them that any one person would find objectionable, the key with Walmart is that they are the largest corporation in America. So if one wants to get the most bang for their activist buck (sorry to use that phrase), boycotting Walmart has the potential for the greatest impact. Also, because they are the largest (they are larger than Target, Sears, Kmart, and Home Depot put together), they are considered the model for other chains to emulate. Therefore, if Walmart gets away with stuff, eventually, other chains will attempt to do so also. Another point is, unlike other chains, Walmart has so many billions of dollars in profits that should be used to improve things, for example, pay their employees a living wage and healthcare so that the rest of us are not subsidizing Walmart with our tax dollars.

Finally, you can go here to look up companies and see how they compare to others on many of the issues that Walmart is often criticized for; so you can do your research on all kinds of stores, not just Walmart's competitors.

Happy responsible shopping!


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## eleven (Aug 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swimswamswum*
Also, if you support a woman's right to birth control, you might want to reconsider shopping at Target (and have another reason not to go to Walmart) because they are allowing their pharmacists to "morally object" to filling scripts for BC and plan B (the after-morning pill).









Do you have a reference for this info? I'm so disappointed and would like to write a letter. Thanks!


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## swimswamswum (Oct 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tie-dyed*
I'm also in MI and i think that it is important to shop at Meijer because while they are far from perfect, they are better than walmart--they do not break unions, they tend to apy a bit better, and they don't make a general practice of putting their suppliers out of business with deceptive pricing tactics--and Meijer is under significant pressure right now, mostly from Wal-Mart. I'd much rather have smaller, imperfect chain stay in business that toss up my hands cuz they're all bad and let Wal-mart put everyone else out of business.

It's ridiculous for a company to be wealtheir than most nations on the planet, and to have more political clout.

Well put. I really hope I didn't sound like I was defending Walmart and dissing Meijer. I was just there last night.


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## swimswamswum (Oct 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pease*







Do you have a reference for this info? I'm so disappointed and would like to write a letter. Thanks!

I stand corrected- I guess Target only allows objection to Plan B- I don't know why I mixed that up- I think someone at work had it wrong b/c Wal-mart and some others allow for all BC. Sorry. Still, this is really bothersome and has the potential to become a very slippery slope.

It was in the news earlier this month and Planned Parenthood has been running a campaign about it.

Here is more info-
http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/..._ec/index.html

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5018646

http://www.patridiots.com/002045.html

http://www.kaisernetwork.org/daily_r...fm?DR_ID=33699


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I know that Seventh Generation researched all the big stores, and decided to market their products through Target (currently only in limited locations.) In their "non toxic times" newsletter, they specifically mentioned that they chose not to work with Wal-Mart.

I shop at Target if I need anything from a "big chain store."


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## Anguschick1 (Jul 25, 2003)

Just wanted to add a tidbit re: Wal-Mart vs Target...I used to work at a gift basket company (we designed, assembled and distributed the gift baskets that abound at retailers this time of year, Wal-Mart, Target, Bloomingdales, Marshall Field's, Macy's, Meijier, Walgreens, etc.) and Target had you sign an agreement that you would only use suppliers that paid their employees a "living wage" and had "ethical standards." Employees from Target would regularly travel w/our buyers to China, India and Taiwan to inspect the facilities. When Wal-Mart's buying staff was in for a gift presentation (in 2001 for what it's worth) I over heard them joking w/our sales guy if they could get cheaper prices if we used the "Chinese kids" rather than paying the adults. Maybe it was just a joke, but a pretty sick one at that.


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## mama_kass (Jan 11, 2003)

nonconformnmom~ Thanks for your post. I see your point and the link is helpful.

Ruthla and Anguschick1~ Thanks for posting your experience.

This is a great thread mamas.


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## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swimswamswum*
Well put. I really hope I didn't sound like I was defending Walmart and dissing Meijer. I was just there last night.

Nope, not at all! You brought up the idea that there are complex issues involved in any of them, and I was just trying that another complicating facotr is the competition between the big boxes.

In answer to someone else's question: my sister-in-law works at Wal-Mart (ok, actually, my cousin's partner, but you ge the idea). She loves it. But she also is careful to articulate that she is much better off than employees hired within the past five years or so. She gets paid quite a bit extra for holidays and such, whereas newer employees don't, she has some kind of stock options thing that is apparently very flexible and user-friendly, and she just in general enjoys the work. She is full time and has very good insurance. In fact, when she had a cancer scare last year and needed a biopsy and some other tests (she was fine), she only had like $50 or so worht of copays. Considering that when I was working retail a couple years back a co-worker ended up shelling out several hundred dollars for a similar type of thing, that isn't too bad.

The fact remains though, that she *does* not make a living wage. Before she met my cousin she was constantly fighting eviction, shutoffs, garnishments, etc. Despite her 12 years of employment and obvious intelligence, she has never had the opportunity to advance beyond a level one step above new hire. She has had very reasonable scheduling requests denied on a regular basis. And there's always the factor that she is much, much better off than newer employees.

To me, the biggest issues with Wal-Mart are not how they treat thier employees. Many, many retailers treat their employess horribly. Most specialty retails stores only have one or two full-timers per store to avoid paying benefits. Seriously, one can get a better full-package--pay, benefits, hours--working in a fast food joint. And boy, you want to talk about discrimination, check out most consumer electronics stores (Best Buy is the exception). Men are in sales 'girls' are cashiers. In two years I was one of three women at my store in sales; compare to maybe 150 men; and all three of us were hired by the same guy. The other managers simply did not hire women--only 'girls' to run registers.

No, my issues with Wal-mart are the crushing contracts they force their suppliers into, the deliberate, borg-like destruction of all forms of competition, and the simple vastness of it. It is never a good thing when an entity concerned *solely* with making money is one of the wealthiest entities on the planet.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_kass*
DH asked a worker at WM was it true that they are not paid a living wage and were not offered a full time position. The employee told him that it is all propoganda. I really don't know. Has anyone else talked to a Wal Mart worker?

I was a walmart worker for about 6 weeks. I enjoyed it. The people including the managers were really nice. This was in my hometown of Martinsville VA where the wages there were about average, sadly.

Would I work at WM again? Not knowing what I know now about them.

~Nay


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## Jenifer76 (Apr 20, 2005)

Quote:

Target actually locates in urban areas as well as rural areas, unlike Wal-mart.
Except they jumped ship out of Detroit, MI as well as K-mart. There is not a single major retailer like Target, Wal-mart of K-mart in the city.


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## Jenifer76 (Apr 20, 2005)

And I was going to add about Wal-Mart -- I have a friend here in GR that works for the Meijer family. She has had discussion with Fred Meijer about Wal-Mart. He was friends with Sam Walton before Sam passed away. Mr. Meijer said that he enjoyed the competition with Wal-Mart when Sam was in charge but that it has really gone down since his death. He feels Sam would be appalled by the company's actions.


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## cutekid (Aug 5, 2004)

Target..just like Wal-mart is a big box store with lots of big box stuff.
The first reason I hated wal-mart was customer service. I don't shop anywhere that treats me like crap. If your store is dirty and disorganized you don't get my money. Wal-mart is that store along with dollar stores.









IF you want to compare what places do to employees Target has its darkside. Absolutely No overtime. My mother works for target and was on teh verge of getting fired for going over 40 hours. Target however does hire most employees full time. My DF just got a job for the holidays and he has been offered a small but useful benefits package. All night shift workers must remain inside without anytime outside for 8 hours (even prisoners get an outside break)

On the other hand Wal-mart. My sister worked for Wal-mart as a CSM. She loved/hated the job. She came to a point where she hated being a CSM so she asked for another position. She got the other position and a drop in wages. She told them just where they could go and she quit. They didn't seem to care that she had two kids at home either. Her benfits sucked. She actually had mediciad for her two kids while working there.

But..my Grandfather worked for wal-mart for most of his retired life. He was a greeter in the gardening department. He loved his job. He had wonderful benefits. When he got to sick to work they continued to pay him, then his stock options kicked in. He recently died and Wal-mart gave a substaintial sum of money to his family for all of his years of work. I will add though he was a retiree who was well off only working to pass time. He didn't really finacially need the money.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_kass*
Has anyone else talked to a Wal Mart worker?

My ex-BIL worked there for a number of years in management, so he was full time salaried (ie 50+ hours a week). Now he works at K-Mart in a similar position. I should ask him how he feels about the two chains, having worked at both.

Many retail companies don't offer full time jobs, so it wouldn't surprise me that most of Wal-Mart's were part time. My sister is in a union and has worked at a couple different grocery store chains, and most of the jobs were part time. She might work up to almost 40 hours when they needed her for that, but she wasn't officially a full time employee. In slow times, she was lucky to get 15 hours a week. She was able to get healthcare after awhile and she stayed with the union when she went to a new grocery chain so that her benefits would not cease. The pay was also better than minimum wage with 1 and 1/2 on Sundays, so she makes enough to get by from paycheck to paycheck.


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## veggigoddess (Apr 17, 2005)

In the sense of sweatshops probably no different but how they treat employees in their retail ocations it's probably better then Wal Mart. I pick my battles and do not support the worst of the worst which are Wal Mart, & all GAP related stores in the clothign categories. Those are very bad companies!


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## Brinda (Oct 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tie-dyed*
I'm also in MI and i think that it is important to shop at Meijer because while they are far from perfect, they are better than walmart--they do not break unions, they tend to apy a bit better, and they don't make a general practice of putting their suppliers out of business with deceptive pricing tactics--and Meijer is under significant pressure right now, mostly from Wal-Mart. I'd much rather have smaller, imperfect chain stay in business that toss up my hands cuz they're all bad and let Wal-mart put everyone else out of business.

It's ridiculous for a company to be wealtheir than most nations on the planet, and to have more political clout.

I worked for Meijer, and they are not as good in the employment department as they portray they are. They purposely kept me from being classified full-time so they didn't HAVE to give me benefits, but made me work full-time hours. The highest you can make as a retail associate is $8.50. I think about the only good thing about working there was I had the union to fall back on.


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## Clarinet (Nov 3, 2005)

Can anyone point me in the direction of a website like this: http://www.newdream.org/consumer/shop.html for Canada? Or any sort of consumer information websites for stores in Canada?


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## Brinda (Oct 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cutekid*
IF you want to compare what places do to employees Target has its darkside. Absolutely No overtime. My mother works for target and was on teh verge of getting fired for going over 40 hours.

Meijer is the same way. I was threatened to be written up because I went like 2 minutes over to clock out all week one week, resulting in 10 minutes of overtime. I witnessed firsthand, that when they finally did promote someone, they were hired as salary, and generally worked anywhere from 60-80 hours a week with no overtime!


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## Unoppressed MAMA Q (Jun 13, 2004)

walmart is just not an option, end of story. target is to be used rarely and with extreme forethought (do i really need this, and is there nowhere else that can order it for me?)...
i think the real question is 'what are we buying?'
do we really need the stuff that is sold at target, etc?
i can walk around those places for hours and not see a thing that i would acutally employ in my life...
most of it is crap!


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## ashleyhaugh (Jun 23, 2005)

my mom worked at walmart over the christmas season one year, and she absolutly hated it.....


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I have a friend who works for Walmart and I worked for a Target. I can tell you she definitely has the better job. She was paid better from the start, had more regular hours, and gets benifits. I got min. wage, My manager regularly threw off my schedule "so I didn't think I was special" and screwed me out of benifits I hadf earned (i worked 42 hours a week for 24 weeks. you had to average 40 hrs. per week after 6 months to get benifits. So the last two weeks before I got my benifits she sceduled me 2 hours a week. Not only did I get screwed out of my benifits I also had to go two weeks without pay. I quit after that. Thats just mean.) the stores were cleaner and the stuiff mroe appealing but when it comes to how they treat thier staff and customers I don't see target as being any better. one of our K-mart stores is closing. thier employees found out about it on the news. uncool.

So yeah I would say shop only locally if it really matters. I think it is silly to make a big fuss about walmart but still shop at target, k-mart,sears or penny's. And don't forget resteraunts. Chaion resteraunts and fast food are far worse than any retail store. I used to work at chi chis. Got third degree burns and was back at work the next day. had the burns from my knuckles to me elbow. They dropped me off at the acute care clinic and I had to find my own way home. drugged. then had to ride my bike back and forth to physical therapy daily. I was 18. So careful where you eat too. And watch what you buy at local grocery stores. Almost everythign is owned by nestly, phillip morris/Kraft and ConAgra. all horrrid horrid companies. They are all the same. low wages, cheating people out of benifits if they can find any way to do it, anti unions. Of course a lot of thiese things apply to local businesses too. Our employees don' make much, we don't offer benifits usually and I don't know if there is a union but if there is we would choose someone non-union (our employment is usually by invitation only although everyone is welcome to fill out our 15 page application- no kidding. i don't know what he is thinking there.)

So in the end you have to know what is important to you, how far it goes, how much you are willing to pay for it, how much work you are going to do for anf where to get the stuff you need while honoring all of that.

good luck.

I try not to stress over it. I choose to shop local when I can (often returning business to our customers, shopping with friends who own businesses or targeting Christian businesses), never shop at walmart (because I just would rather have a root canal than drag my kids into that mess and it is important to my hubby), and let the rest slide. We simply can't affford all of our ideals.


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## morgainesmama (Sep 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
the key with Walmart is that they are the largest corporation in America. .... because they are the largest (they are larger than Target, Sears, Kmart, and Home Depot put together), they are considered the model for other chains to emulate. Therefore, if Walmart gets away with stuff, eventually, other chains will attempt to do so also.

Happy responsible shopping!

I think this is such an important point.

I am so broke almost all of the time that I shop at WalMart because I can't afford to shop locally for most things, like cat food, etc. Not only do I support Wal-Mart but I buy their store brand too. However, as a minimalist, the more broke I've gotten the less I buy from any store, so they don't get much of my money.

However, they are opening a Target locally, and I know their prices are comparable, so I could very easily shift my business on the few items I buy in departments stores. And I can encourage other moms who go to Wal-Mart to do the same.

Thanks for these points.


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## Alkenny (May 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brinda*
I worked for Meijer, and they are not as good in the employment department as they portray they are. They purposely kept me from being classified full-time so they didn't HAVE to give me benefits, but made me work full-time hours. The highest you can make as a retail associate is $8.50. I think about the only good thing about working there was I had the union to fall back on.

My sister's MIL works there and makes over $10 an hour (last I knew from our discussions), which is GREAT money around here where factories are abundant and start you out at $7-$9 an hour.

I've never heard anything bad about Meijer, and their prices are comparable if not better in some areas than Walmart.


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## Sweetiemommy (Jul 19, 2005)

I worked for Target in high school/college and they treat their employees very well. Of course, it depends on the managers in the store, but overall/policy-wise they take really good care of their employees. They do have a no overtime policy for salesfloor workers (but not shift leaders) and the rule about not leaving to go outside during the overnight shift is because they use a security system at night to keep the employees safe (by preventing anyone from coming inside who isn't supposed to be there) and to prevent theft (it would be easy for employees to sneak stuff outside). Also, the manager on duty has the ability to let someone out, if they need to go home or get sick or something.


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## shanagirl (Oct 24, 2005)

There was a big article not too long ago about a memo that surfaced within WalMart, I believe, that the HR director had written about the fact that it is beneficial to the company to have high turnover among employees because it saves them on benefit costs-- I think they don't offer benefits until you have been there awhile. So there is little incentive -none actually-- to recognize or retain good employees. That is incredibly demoralizing for any worker. What I'm seeing on this discussion is that some WalMarts have local management that think outside the box and can recognize a good long-term employee, but for the most part, the larger pattern is that people are an interchangeable commodity to be purchased at the lowest cost possible. That, in my opinion, is the true 'global economy' in which we are living. It is THE corporate model of our times, and I have lived it even in the hi tech sector. One company I worked for was using an office in the Phillipines as an incredibly cheap offshore facility--salaries were about $7000 a year in US dollars compared to $50,000 for a similarly skilled US worker. When I pointed out to fellow management that ALL our salaries looked ridiculous compared to that, they were quite sure that 'our' jobs could never be outsourced. We shall see. There are smart people everywhere in the world.

Buy local whenever possible. Support local producers and artists. Pay them a respectable wage for their time and skills. This is my mantra. It gets harder to do, but this year I even found Christmas cards that had been handmade by the students at a local art school. I got to talk to the girl who made the drawing and she was thrilled to meet someone who loved her work. This was THE highlight of my Christmas shopping.


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## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_kass*
Has anyone else talked to a Wal Mart worker?

Yep, my partner worked there in 2002. He worked overnight, as a stocker.

It was fulltime and (poor) benefits were offered after 3 months of employment.

HOWEVER
Everyone magically got fired before they made it to 3 months. Some employees stay, but everyone my partner worked with? Gone.

They have many unfair labour practices, and it's not a good place to work. They do not pay a living wage, the nightshfit wage (at least in 2002) He made $7.15 an hour and no holiday pay because he hadn't been there 3 months.

They also expected themto do outrageous amounts of work in terms of speed. They fired him for "not unloading one skid in an hour". The guy he worked with got fired did it in 45 minutes and got fired for "not unloading one skid in half an hour".


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