# Why can't I be just a mother??!! "AP vs.Mainstreem Parents"



## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

No, I don't breastfeed! Ds is exclusively formula fed. Why is he formula fed and not breastfeed? I (nor any other mother who does not breastfeed) should have to justify her reasons not to, nor should she be *judged* for it either. And before a person *judges* a mother who does not breastfeed, THINK about the possibility of potential health issues that may PREVENT her from doing so and how bad she me feel because she is NOT ABLE to.
And do I love my son any less? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

DS wears *gasp* disposable diapers! Do I love him any less? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Have DH and I ever gone on a 2 hour date without DS (who was in the care of MY MOTHER WHO RAISED ME)? Yes. Do we love him any less? NO.

ANYONE who says they do not (on occassion) need a break is LYING. EVERY parent gets overwhelmed at times.

However, just because a parent (MOTHER OR FATHER) takes a break from their child DOES NOT MEAN they love them anyless.

Attachment Parenting VS.Mainstream Parents-This has got to be the most unfair labeling of parents (besides SAHM vs. WM) I have ever seen. I am very upset how indiviuals have deemed AP as the ONLY way to parent. I may do the complete opposite of most mothers on this board

I formula feed, disposable diaper wear,vaccinate, take DS to his well baby checkups EVERY 3 MONTHS, and *GASP* WORK OUTSIDE THE HOME!

But do I love my son any less? NO, I love him more than life itself and NO one can tell me the hell different!


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## Elphaba (Nov 19, 2001)

I'm sorry you are feeling defensive and attacked. You don't need to justify yourself to anyone, but perhaps you would feel more comfortable at another board? There are so many places for parents online, there's bound to be one where you DO feel at home. MDC is a great place, for me, but I have friends who would not be at home here. Everyone has a niche, you just need to find yours.
If you do continue to come here, maybe you should just not enter the forums for breastfeeding, diapering and vaccination. That still leaves you with food, general babycare, parenting issues, health, politics/social causes, and general chit-chat stuff. That's a lot.
Hope you find what you're looking for.


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## KLK7 (Jan 31, 2004)

i'm a new member here and i just don't understand posts like the OP.

i don't go on a KKK messageboard and ask them to stop being racist. maybe that's not a fair comparison, but I don't know...
The OP isn't going to change things for her way of thinking here any more than I would reforming the racist attitudes at the KKK board, KWIM?


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Elphaba-thank you for your honest reply. But I disagree with you, you see..I am apart of this board... it is called Mothering because that is what I am: a mother.


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## KLK7 (Jan 31, 2004)

I understand what you are saying about being a mother, but this is the description of these boards from the Rules Forum:
I added the italics.

Quote:

The MotheringDotCommune discussion boards serve an online community of parents considering, learning and _practicing attachment parenting and natural family living_.


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## JandJ (Mar 16, 2004)

Well put! I am a sahm of two, considering hs, and I bf. On the other hand, I use disposable diapers and a stroller, but I am not offended or angered nor do I feel attacked by other people's parenting.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Hello newmommy. Please know that there are lots of different types of mommies here, but there are some central ideas. Those of us who deviate from some of them find there are threads that make us mad and we may just ignore them. For example, I breastfed but weaned earlier than many here, and my kids got some formula because I couldn't pump enough . I disposable diaper and am entirely comfortable with that. I also vax and go to well baby checks. And I work PT outside the home. That makes me a little outside of "Mothering's mainstream". I come here because I'm totally committed to gentle discipline and "respectful" childrearing. I will confess that I don't even enter some of the forums here. And some threads I don't read past the first couple of entries because I know I'll just get more annoyed than I need to.

I too think that some people here get a little more judgemental of others than I would like. I truly believe we are all after the same goal, but some of us have made different choices about how to get there. If you share the goal of raising children in a way that respects them, without violence, with love and through the basic tenets of attachment parenting, then this is a good resource. But, in honesty, you may have to develop a pretty thick skin to ignore the implied judgement on some of your other choices.


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## Soul-O (Mar 14, 2004)

I'm new here as well, but came to these boards through Mothering Magazine, so I knew of the parenting philosophy behind the boards before I ever posted one word here. My parenting practices fit the philosophy: co-sleeping, babywearing, extended nursing (first one self weaned at 3 1/2, second one will do the same), gentle discipline, child-centered household. This is not a "catch all" parenting board (i.e. Babycenter or the now departed Labor of Love), and you will not necessarily find a home here if your parenting ideas are not in line with the objectives of the magazine. Newmommy - if you haven't already done so, I suggest you pick up a copy of Mothering and decide if the content of the magazine suits you before coming here to complain about the judgemental nature of the moms posting at MDC.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Quote:

I am very upset how indiviuals have deemed AP as the ONLY way to parent.
I can understand your point here, but MDC is a board specifically designed for AP type parenting. It does not mean that that is the only way to parent, but it does mean that the people who frequent these boards are AP type parents and so our views and parenting styles reflect that. Just because we are called "Mothering" does not mean that ALL mothers necessarilly belong here, nor does it mean that ONLY mothers belong here.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

What everyone else said. This is a natural/AP parenting board specifically for those who do some or all of the following: breastfeed, cosleep, sling wear, cloth diaper, don't or selectively vaccinate, use gentle discipline, do not do CIO, etc, etc. I'm sorry but I do not understand the purpose of your post. Did you read the description of the board? It is called Mothering because it is a subset of Mothering magazine which is a natural/AP magazine, not just because we are mothers. I would never tell someone to leave but posting stuff like this really doesn't make sense to me. We come here because we strongly believe in this stuff. We are not saying you don't love your child but you will not be able to convince anyone on here that formula feeding is just a choice one makes or other similar issues. There are many wonderful boards out there that are more in tune with your parenting philosophies.


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## rlandnl (Aug 28, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by newmommy_
*

ANYONE who says they do not (on occassion) need a break is LYING. EVERY parent gets overwhelmed at times.

*
I HAVE to comment on this. I DO NOT need a break. My son is 10 months old and has spent no more than 1 hour TOTAL away from me. That hour was spread out over these 10 months for me to run to the corner store or what not, while my DH watched him. But he has never EVER been left with anyone else, not for a minute. I feel no need to "get a break". I feel the time I get to "myself" after he goes to bed to be enough of a break (and he goes to bed as late as 11pm some nights). As for "our" time? DH and I use the time after he going to bed as his time, my time and our time.

Does this make me a better mother? NO! But it is the choice that is best for me.

So for you to say that anyone that says that is lying is VERY judgmental and simply not true. And you are doing the very thing that you accuse others here of doing to you.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Ditto what everyone else is saying. This board promotes and encourages AP parenting/natural family living. If these are things do not mesh with how you parent or are not things that you want to learn more about, there are plenty of other parenting boards out there.

I have found, though, that this board accepts and welcomes lots of different mothering choices-it's not all one way or the highway. But there are some core beliefs (for lack of a better word) that many seem to agree on.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Ditto to much of the above.

Just wanted to add that some issues like diapering may be passions to some, but there are many people here who never frequent the diapering forum and certianly don't feel judged for not using cloth.

Now, I am a cloth convert, since coming to mdc, but before I made the change I certainly never felt judged.

As for formula, you will find that in general mums here are very understanding of the fact that there are reasons for people having to formula feed. You won't, however, find many who approve of those who just make that 'choice'.

re working, there are many working parents here.

Re lying about not needing a break, well, I must be a good liar. But I dont condemn anyone else for needing one.

Re vacc, a lot of people here do vacc and do go to well baby checks. Their choice.

I do hope that you either find a better understanding of what mdc is, or find a board where you fit more comfortably.


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## witch's mom (Dec 8, 2003)

There was a time when I could've written newmommy's original post. When I had my first daughter I didn't know there was such a thing as AP. I thought motherhood was all about Parenting magazine, limited BF, taking baby to bed with you only as last resort, disposable diapers. I actually called LLL in hopes they could help me get DD off BF and onto bottles full of formula before I went back to work full time (when DD was 3 months old) and was furious when they tried to talk me into continuing nursing. (!) How DARE they suggest that my choices weren't the right way! But as I got more experienced with parenting, I found more and more that I didn't "fit in" with a lot of the mainstream--those articles in Parenting were way too shallow, I often brought DD in bed with me just because I missed her during the workday and wanted more time with her, even if we were both asleep. I began wishing I'd nursed longer than three months. I could never leave her alone to cry. I had no desire to leave her to have time to myself, and preferred the three of us going out rather than just DH and me. I didn't know there was a name for this type of parenting til I read Mothering magazine one day and saw the term AP. Still, the first few issues of Mothering I read, I thought, "wow, these people are zealots." But I also found it very comforting. I'm still probably more middle-of-the-road than a lot of the mamas on these boards, but I feel a lot of kinship here. I regret not doing more AP with my DDs when they were babies, and now that they're 7 and almost 5, I fight on some level every day to reduce the "noise" in our lives so we can just be close as a family. We also are natural foodies, we maintain a somewhat pedestrian lifestyle in our suburban neighborhood and we feel like outcasts in our community to some degree because we eat brown food, we walk, we say no thank you to overscheduling, we're more interested in a kind kindergarten teacher than an academic one . . . Newmommy, if these boards upset you, or make you feel defensive, maybe try a different type of parenting board. Or just lurk around in here for awhile (as I did for several months before I ever dared post a message), reading with your mind open. I've found some great wisdom here, even in forums I never thought I belonged in.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

It's like going to a breastfeeding site and getting upset that they're promoting and discussing breastfeeding. That's what the site is geared towards. Just skip over those that may not apply, it's a very helpful place if you decide to stick around and there is a good mix here.I breastfeed, cosleep, clothdiaper, babywear BUT I also use a sitter sometimes, loVE meat and my son attends school. Does that mean I shouldn't be here, don't know but a few negative posts on the things I do wouldn't change my mind or anger me unless I felt I was doing something wrong.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

This is an AP board, if you are looking for support for the totality of mainstream parenting decisions then there are many many places for that. There are few AP support forums, this happens to be one of them.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

newmommy!

I just wanted to offer you support. As the others said this board is very AP/NP so most of the people here do bf, cosleep, etc. I think it's a santuary from other boards where people talk about their babies CIO until they vomit and give a good swat when the toddler is acting up.

I also bottlefeed my baby. First one was becuase I coudn't bf, second baby was by my own choice, and after I stopped pumping last week she now gets formula. It was something I had to work through in my heart to feel comfortable with, and I haven't gotten one negative comment here from anyone. I'm still very supportive of bfing and know it's absolutely the best thing in the world, but if you can't/don't do it, you can still be a loving mommy.

I also vaccinate my children. Again it was a choice dh and I made after seeing both sides of the debate. I totally respect those who choose not to vax and can support them even if choose to vax my own kids. I still learn a lot from reading the threads.

I need a break from my kids sometimes. I never left my oldest with anyone until she was 2.5 years old. But then I had another baby and yeah, I need a break. Dh gets home very late so I take the kids and drop them at childwatch at the Y and workout for awhile and get my break. I think motherhood is about finding balance, and for some they don't need a break and others do. I think what I'd have a problem with is someone leaving their baby for a whole week to go on a cruise. But it's not a crime to need a break from the kids once in awhile.

I come here because I am *mostly* AP and NP. My baby sleeps in a cosleeper, my baby's in cloth diapers, I bottlefeed with love and no one but me feeds her except dh will do one feeding at night. I wear her close to me and hold her alot and don't ever let her CIO. So I get a lot of support here for those things. I can also post problem in Gentle Discipline and get good ideas for how to parent my 3yo when it gets challenging. I've made friends here, I've come here and read about different spiritual beliefs and practices and am amazed at how people can be so respectful of each other even with so many differences among us.

Yeah, you get the occasional ugly thread. I just ignore those and hold my head high and make no excuses for some of the decisons I've made. If I ever feel judged I just remember that they don't know me or my family or situation so they can just take their judgements where the sun doesn't shine.

Darshani


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## Proudmomoftwinsplusone (Feb 21, 2004)

Even though I formula feed and vaccinate my twin boys I think this is a great website, I can often relate to many people's issues here. Its a great place for advice and stories and helped me to foray into the world of cloth diapering a month ago. So I am sure newmommy is getting something out of this board if she is coming here and shouldnt be discouraged from being here. I visit this site several times a day for relaxation and entertinment and to learn new things, and then once in a while, kablammo! there is a snide remark about formula. It used to really bother me when my hormones were still out of wack.

dena


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

I think you can get a lot out of being here whether you call youself ap or mainstream...

But you have to realize this board is directed at those who practice ap and natural family living.

While I do practice a lot of these things, I have learned to stay out of forums that don't apply to me or that make me upset... I don't go anywhere near the vaccinations forum anymore, for example, even though I partially/delay vax.

You will find that people here are like people anywhere.. some are indeed judgemental and holier-than-thou.. some are kind and open-minded and gentle. Such is the way of the world.

I suggest you read and post on the forums where you feel comfortable and see if you feel better.

If not.. there are plenty of other boards.


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## pageta (Nov 17, 2003)

Those of us that do AP (breastfeeding, co-sleeping, babywearing, cloth diapering, etc.) don't fit in on most other boards because no one else is doing what we do. Mothering is a great place where we can find support and learn from each other. We have reasons for why we have chosen to parent the way we parent, and I think it is only fair that we be able to enjoy a place where we can talk with other like-minded moms. It's not fair for you to want us to do things your way any more than it is for us to expect you to do things our way. This is a support board for AP parents, and if that's not how you chose to parent, there are many other boards out there to choose from.


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## emmasayshi (Dec 5, 2003)

I think you've misunderstood a little of what is written here. I don't breastfeed because my daughter is alergic to casein and had I known I wouln't have breastfed my ds either. I do use disposable diapers too. And I don't care what anyone says about their style of parenting, since my kids are on the spectrum my style is pretty darned different from most moms here. Yet the same concers about how much dicipline and what kind and nutrition and the chemicals in the environment and how to avoid them, these things are important to me too. I think you are feeling picked on without reason.

Your choice is your choice but you might learn a lot from some of the moms on mothering. I have. So welcome to be who you are and of course I know you love your babe just as much as the rest of us. Pampers don't make you a bad mommie any more than cloth makes someone else a good mommie. The love that you feel makes you a mom nothing else. Welcome.


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

Quote:

But I disagree with you, you see..I am apart of this board... it is called Mothering because that is what I am: a mother.

*No, it is called "Mothering", because that is the name of the magazine.*







A magazine that advocates AP parenting. If you haven't ever read the magazine, pick one up, and you will see where these forums are coming from. I read "Parenting" magazine, but just because I disagree with some of the things they advocate, does not mean I am not a parent, or a darn good one.

These boards are here to provide support in the areas that are needed in parenting, specifically, AP parenting. I agree with most here, take what you need from the boards that apply to your life situation...and stay away from the ones that you disagree with.









Edited to add:
Here is another Parenting Forum that you may like as well, although Mothering is still the best IMHO no matter what style of parenting you chose.








http://www.women-together.com/yabbse/index.php?board=96


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I agree that not all of us will do everything that is featured in the forums. But when I see new members who say they formula feed by choice and think bf is gross, CIO, spank, don't believe homebirth is safe for anyone, always listen to the doctor, think babies need to spend most of their time alone, think homeschooling should be illegal, etc. - all of that stuff at once - I just wonder what made them want to join this board, and how they found it in the first place. I've seen a few people like that around here, and they don't last long. They always comment on how no one here supports their choices and generally have something nasty to say before they leave.

There are things on this board that I don't agree with because I'm more "mainstream" and also things that I don't agree with because I think they are not "alternative" enough, but it's been a good board. I've tried others and just never stuck with them. I'm really glad MDC is here!


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by emmasayshi_
*I think you've misunderstood a little of what is written here. I don't breastfeed because my daughter is alergic to casein and had I known I wouln't have breastfed my ds either.*








T But I'm not sure I understand this. Casein is a dairy (milk) product, isn't it?

Don't want to highjack - I'm just confused.







:


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

And assuming that newmommy has not run screaming as far as she possibly can from MDC.......... if anyone had bothered to go check her previous posts, you might make fewer assumptions about her 'AP credentials'......... She's not mainstream. And she's struggled with PND/anxiety stuff.


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## witch's mom (Dec 8, 2003)

Yeah, I actually did look at her previous posts and thought she could be in the right place to get some support for what she's doing and what she's going through. I think perhaps she didn't realize that MDC is pretty specifically for people who KNOW they subscribe to an AP style. I know for me, labeling myself a certain type of parent still doesn't come easily. I'm a cafeteria APer and a cafeteria mainstreamer: I take what I want and leave the rest. Sometimes my choices leave me feeling a little . . . unsettled, uncertain, defensive, out of the ordinary. But most of the time I am pretty confident, and at over 40 years of age, I'm not willing to get too riled up about what others may think of my choices. I do hope newmommy sticks around (and resists the urge to shout at people in big caps). There's a lot of support here.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Ditto, dragonfly... I have a dd that had milk allergy and I agree with your post. (She's outgrown it, btw.)

As for other comments about what the OP said... if she's never read Mothering Mag, perhaps this site seemed too radical. I love these forums and am probably a better mother for them in some ways, but just as crazy as things like FFing and CIO-ing may be for the majority of us here, I'm sure mainstream moms think we are just as crazy.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Based on her other posts on other threads...........sounds like OP is searching and calling out for help.

I hope you find it newmommy......


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I am very sorry that you are feeling attacked on these boards for your parenting choices. I am not aware of any posts that have claimed you must love your children less if you use disposable diapers, if you use formula, etc.

If anybody attacks you that way they are in violation of the User Agreement and such posts should be brought to the attention of a moderator. We do not stand for personal attacks like that on these boards.

I see by searching your other posts that you have been facing many hardships and obstacles. It's no wonder you are feeling frustrated. But I have to say (respectfully this time) that I don't feel it is fair to blame the members of this board for your insecurities about your parenting choices. I have seen nothing but love and support from the mamas of this board towards any mama who is struggling with the ideal of the "perfect parent" and the reality of being human, and an individual.

_edited to change my tone_


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)




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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

, Newmommy.

I consider myself AP. However, I use disposables. I go out - quite a lot, actually! - because I, personally, would go nuts without my adult time. My dh actually sleeps with our kids. I weaned my first and will wean my second....... child-led weaning just isn't for me. I used the sling sometimes..... I didn't wear my kids constantly, though.

Most of us fall somewhere in the middle. It's not an all-or-nothing thing here. There are tons of forums that could be useful for you: we have working mamas threads, discipline threads, health and healing threads, personal growth and spirituality forums, parenting issues forums, etc. etc. etc.

Just don't go to the breastfeeding forums. They are not for you. Don't go to the diapering forums. I don't. Don't go to the vax forum if you don't want to hear dissenting opinions. And STAY FAR, FAR AWAY FROM ACTIVISM UNTIL YOU'VE BEEN COMING HERE FOR A WHILE. Trust me on this one:LOL


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

I hope I did not offend anyone with my "







".
I just get so indignant when I hear the "I am/am not better than you stuff.







I come here because this is the only place where I can find like-minded mothers, and I don't like it when a mother comes for support or to vent and has to answer for the way she feels. I get enough of that from my relatives and in-laws.







I end up feeling like I cannot totally vent _myself_ without offending someone who may be doing things differently. I come here because I know I do not have to defend my choices. I am sorry you feel that you need to defend yours.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

*edited because I quoted Piglet, then she edited out the part I quoted, so I figured she didn't want it out there anymore.







*

If you have made your decisions responsibly, nobody can fault you. And anyway, even if you made mistakes - well, welcome to the human race! You are allowed to be wrong!

It is true that some people act like they are perfect or have it all figured out. Those people are on every message board. All we can do is







: and let them







... We are being kind by allowing them to feel good about themselves in the limited way they are able.


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## lunamomma (Mar 10, 2004)

I JUST WANT TO ADD THAT FOR ME BREASTFEEDING, CLOTH DIAPERING AND OTHER AP STUFF JUST SEEMED COMPLETELY NATURAL TO ME. NO I WASN'T RAISED THAT WAY BUT I DIDN'T HAVE TO READ OR ASK OTHERS I SIMPLY LISTENED TO MY HEART. MY ANCESTORS USED ELIMINATION COMMUNICATION, WORE THEIR CHILDREN, AND USED PARABLES AND WISE SAYINGS TO DISCIPLINE AND TEACH. WE MUST FOLLOW YOUR HEARTS. ALWAYS REMAIN OPEN AND SEEK WISDOM AND BALANCE EACH DAY. I'M SURE THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO DO - JUST LIKE ME AND I'M SURE A LOT OF OTHERS ON THIS BOARD AND OTHER BOARDS-


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

i am with dragonfly- once i read 'casein allergy' i said







and my mind stopped thinking of anything else. surely dropping dairy from one's own diet would eliminate that issue?

suse, occasional sposie user who let the 20 month old whine himself to sleep after nursing him for an hour, safe in his crib, 2 ft away, while being gently sung to and occasionally tended, but he wanted to play, and MAMA NEEDS SLEEP. call it cio if you want, but i'm differentiating between a whiny toddler who wanted to endlessly play, and a teeny hungry fretful infant. ooh me! i must not be ap, whimper!

bah. too old for labels. if my kids are attached is what is important, not how people on a message board grade my ap quotient.


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

You know newmommy~ I used to get upset when mainstream posters would come here. After all, *this IS our safe place.* Our sanctuary. We deal with 'mainstream' folks all day in the real world and it can get very lonely not to mention tiring. We support one another. ALot of the times this feels like the land of the misfits. PPL like us who done FIT into the mainstream society as well.
But now, I welcome posters like you here with open arms. Because I KNOW you will walk away from here learning _something_ whatever it may be, and this is ultimately what MDC is all about.

Welcome sister!


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

I love the fact that someone can post something like the OP and you mamas respond with love and kindness instead of harsh words and disrespect. I







this board.


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by famousmockngbrd_
*It is true that some people act like they are perfect or have it all figured out. Those people are on every message board. All we can do is







: and let them







... We are being kind by allowing them to feel good about themselves in the limited way they are able.







*








You mean that I am not perfect??? I don't have it all figured out....**_heads back to drawing board_

Originally, I was going to offer support for the OP. However, the more I read, the more I was upset. I came to MDC from a recommendation and I have learned A GREAT DEAL from the mama's here because they all think alike (basically). I have learned that my parenting style actually has a name and that I am not alone in my thoughts on how children should be raised. Mother's like us do not get very much support from most people IRL or on many other online communities. We come here to rant and to rave and to lean on the shoulders of others who understand what AP means to us. If a person isn't comfortable here, or comfortable with the concepts here then they are free to go elsewhere. We go out of our way to make everyone welcome. We try to help them work out their issues and problems and fears. We (generally) don't flame for varied opinions, thoughts or comments. Occasionally, someone will have a STRONGER opinion, thought or comment but that is to be expected. It's called diversity and even among the most like minded people, there is diversity.

Telling someone that they are LYING when they say that they don't need a break from their children is nasty. It is something that will never cross my lips or my thoughts. My ds is 13 months old. I have been away from his for no more than 4 hours his ENTIRE life (and there are probably maman's here who haven't been away from their children that much). He needs me. That is the way that I feel. Do I flame those that don't think entirely like me...NO. So, please do not presume to call me a liar when I say that I have never needed a break from my children. You don't know me...just like I don't know you. (And yes, I fall into the category of 'anybody').

I sincerely hope that the OP can find her niche here. This is an excellent community to learn from. This is an excellent community for support. And although I was slightly offended by the OP, I do want to say Welcome to MDC.


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## crayon (Aug 24, 2002)

I didnt read all the post- so please note that if I say something already said.

I do see your views that your dont love your children less than I love my kids, but this site is for more AP style parents. Not to say that either way is better- but what ever side you are on you feel is best and that is why you parent that way. I feel that breastmilk is best- so I BF, I feel that sposies are nasty so I CD, I feel that cribs are cages so I family bed. That works for me. I know that there are a lot of other bords that are not so AP- and I know that some people have different levels of AP. There are boards for working moms (out of the house) there are borads for toddlers and for babies- there are more natural boards than this- I think you just have to find your boards that fit who you are. I am very natural (VERY NATURAL) in my parenting- but would I have a lotus birth- NO WAY! it is all different levels.

Hope you find a board you feel at home and not bullied!


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

I am sure a lot of mamas only read, say, the Gentle Discipline board or the Night-time Parenting board or the Cloth Diapering board or whatever it is that interests them. If you are feeling like a take-some-leave-some parent, maybe you should only read from the boards you feel like you connect with. As others have said, this is an AP-focused area, we aren't around to make everyone feel at home - it is a community of like-minded people (who obviously don't always agree but usually are thinking the same kinds of ways) and if you don't feel at home on a given board, try another and see if you fit in better there. I've been a member of several parenting sites and found this to match me best. I wouldn't want to cut myself off here and go to, say WebMD, any more than I would want most of the people there to come here and start talking about how wonderful CIO is.


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## Midwesternmomma (Nov 2, 2003)

Newmommy -

I am sorry you are feeling left out, I think that sometimes happens on MDC, and other AP boards, when you aren't sure of your role, or you aren't "as" AP as some.

In general, this is how I see it.... I know this is a place for AP parenting...and I know what that entails. If you didn't know, then, from this thread, you do. I also know that some of what I do would not be considered AP. The truth is, I can find the forums I feel like I have something to contribute to, and post there. I read others and sometimes feel like I have nothing in common with those mom's or feel like what they are saying is WAY not what I believe. That is ok, we are all different and I just don't post...no biggie.

I think you will find that many people "hang out" in certain areas because that is where they are comfortable. Sometimes they venture out for a stroll, but more or less they have found a forum home. I hope you do too! (Personally, I dont' know what I would do without the trading post and the swaps...:LOL, but I don't know how AP that is







: )

I know that formula feeding moms can feel uncomfortable here...I too had to formula feed (read: supplement) both of my kids due to breast surgery when I was very young. I didn't have the supply that others had and was never going to...but I did my best and they both got SOME breastmilk. That was all I had to offer, but I still felt bad when I was in certain situations)

I think if you stick around you will see that it is worth it...there is always something to learn.

Christina


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Dragonfly_
*







T But I'm not sure I understand this. Casein is a dairy (milk) product, isn't it?
*








T Casein is indeed a dairy product, but it appears in *all* kinds of milk, not just cow's milk. Casein is milk protien, and while most of the time it refers to cow's milk protien, technically human milk protien is also casein. Just like both cow's milk and human milk contain lactose (which just means 'milk sugar') but most of the time when people talk about lactose, they're talking about the kind in cow's milk.







Just a friendly geek-note.


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## girlzmommy00 (May 15, 2003)

Quote:

Casein is milk protien, and while most of the time it refers to cow's milk protien, technically human milk protien is also casein.
I was just going to say the same thing. It's definately not common but it is possible to be allergic to breastmilk. My girls all had the same allergy problem and were allergic to breastmilk, milk based formulas, hypoallergenic formulas (they have casein in them) and were also allergic to soy as well, so they were on an amino acid based formula, Neocate. Thankfully our ins covered that since it's $35 a can.

But to respond to the OP, while we all don't follow all of the exact same ideas of AP parenting, but I think there are some AP basics that most AP parents would agree on. While I don't breastfeed for the above reasons, I definately do support mothers who do as well as other typically AP things that we choose not to do. JMO but if you are finding that your parenting ideas are different from the typical AP points, than perhaps you might feel more at home at a different parenting message board since the Mothering boards are really geared towards AP parenting.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by pageta_
*Those of us that do AP (breastfeeding, co-sleeping, babywearing, cloth diapering, etc.) ...This is a support board for AP parents, and if that's not how you chose to parent, there are many other boards out there to choose from.*
The thing is, you can only breastfeed, babywear and cloth diaper for so long. Then you've got over a decade of active parenting left. I think it's really important to let people know that you can adopt an AP lifestyle at any time during a child's life.

I formula fed my son, didn't co-sleep, didn't baby wear and used cloth diapers because he was allergic to disposables. But, as strange as this may sound, I've been an AP parent from the very start. I've always strived to treat my son with dignity and respect. I've never hit him, I rarely yell at him and we are very closely bonded.

If I'd not been "let in" by some AP Mamas, inspite of my "lousy" credentials in the baby years, then I might not have become the mother I am. As my son comes up on the teenage years, I think AP actually becomes more important. And so, in my opinion, "excluding" (intentionally or unintentionally) people because of what they did or didn't do in the first five years of parenting seems a bit hasty when there is such a need to spread the message of AP with older children.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Yea, what Pugmadmama said.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

I apologize to this board.







My emotions got the best of me and I posted without thinking. I am sorry. However...I would like to *clarify*myself on the term Attachment Parenting. If I had to *classify* myself in terms of mothering...I am simply a mother who loves her son very, very much. I am a first time mother (who admittedly) had very rough start with the rewarding journey of motherhood. But with the help of my DH and other boards (boards you may even consider mainstream) and believe it or not...this board, I am a much better mommy today.

That being said, I may not breastfeed (not by choice, believe me), I did sling, I do co-sleep, I do not believe in CIO (under any terms) and DH and I will never spank/hit our son. I do respond to my son very quickly to the point where I am tripping over myself to get to him







: We both believe in showering our DS with love and affection. Example, DS likes to sleep on our chest, we let him (skin to skin method). I dunno if this form of affection would be considered attachment parenting but I would hope so.

If attachment parenting is considered (according to this community) the most effective way to bring our children up into the most loving, safe and secure environment then how does it differ from most *mainstream* practices?









Truth be told, I have learned alot from other *mainstream boards* and to be honest, I really do not see a difference a big difference that is significantly noticeable. (Most)*Mainstream* mothers do practice extended breastfeeding, they do not believe in CIO, they sling, and some do not vaccinate. But at the same time I now realize they would not be welcomed on this board







Mothers...these are just my personal observations and again they certainly do not apply to ALL *mainstream moms*.

Also, considering the term: Attachment Parenting. To me IMO, a lot of emphasis is placed more on the mother than the father (if any). Is there such a term as Attachment Mothering? In our small family, my DH would be truly hurt if he was not *encouraged* to bond as equally with DS. He likes to call it our circle of love.









I frequent this board alot (from pregnancy to birth) you name it, I've been there and gotten help. But, I truly did not start noticing the *discouragement* from other mothers that did not meet ALL of the attachment parenting methods to come here, get information and use it to the best of your mothering abilities. I honestly thought this was a board that geared to helping mothers no matter who they are, or what they believe in. I did not know that this was a *santuary* against those *other mothers* as someone phrased in their post. Whew! being a first time mother, I am beginning to realize there are all sorts of *little wars* between mothers. From SAHM Vs. WM to Attachment Parenting VS. Mainstream Parenting... It truly never ends.

So again, I am very sorry for my thread (it was not fair for me to post it in this community) and you guys are right, I don't belong here or any other the sub boards within this community as they are all apart of the Attachment community. Please forgive me and I am sorry for the intrusion.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:

But at the same time I now realize they would not be welcomed on this board Mothers...these are just my personal observations and again they certainly do not apply to ALL *mainstream moms*.

Sorry these are your feelings and what you are taking away from this board. I dont think its true. I think when you start a thread blasting AP, you are bound to feel not welcome. (Even though alot of moms here wrote supportive things to you dispite that)

If you come here to inquire, to find a better way, to ask for help or just to read..........there are mamas here who are always there for you.......theyve been there for me and they have no idea if I cosleep, ex. bf'd, etc etc.

What Im trying to say is..........if you dont come out with your guns drawn, there are alot of sympathic ears here. And I can see from previous threads you have started, looking for help, you have found that to be true.

Good luck to you!


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## thinkingcapp (Jul 30, 2003)

Newmommy,
First, I want to applaud you for resonding to the posts in this thread... I'm not so sure I would have had the gumption!
Second, I want to say that I understand where you are coming from. I got totally hooked on MDC after the birth of my son... it was (and is) a valuable source of information for me. Over the course of my son's first 4 months, I descended in to a very deep post-partum depression. Luckily, I have an amazing practice near me here in PA (The PostPartum Stress Center) where I got help for myself. Part of my depression was my unrealistic expectation of myself for how to be a mother. Reading these boards only fueled my depression... I read all of these thing I wasn't doing and feeling like I was failing my son. I actually had a session with my therapist where I discussed MDC because I had had someone disagree with something I posted and the way she did it made me feel totally attacked for my decisions as a parent... reading the exchange of posts now, I can see that the person was clarifing information and that I just was so raw and thin skinned that it sent me over the edge. I actually stopped reading the boards for a couple of months as it was doing me more harm than good. That was all part of my huge transition in to Motherhood. I'm back on the boards because I am in a totally different place now mentally, and I get a lot of value from others thoughts, views and opinions here. I think a big part of it for me was that I hadn't found my own voice yet as a mother before... and I felt like I had failed before I had even started... now I know (through the miracle of time and a good therapist) who I am now and I can respect other people's opinions and actions as their own... and not something that I need to react to in some way if it doesn't exactly reflect how I parent or what I believe.
I must say, I am thankful that MDC exists... I have met such wonderful women in my area through this board who have positivly impacted my life in ways I never could have imagined. I only can hope that you have a similar experience.
Take care of yourself, newmommy!


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

*


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## sleepies (Nov 30, 2001)

i don't do a lot of the things that totally "AP" parents do.

i have found, however, i am much more AP than "mainstream" in the way we treat our children.

for example.....we dont spank.....try not to yell.....try to put the baby/children first. try and be "baby centered"...

im all about gentle parenting, and feel that people here are too.....and i think you can get great advice here.

better than most places.

ps. once your child is over a year....a lot of the "AP" things that you don't do won't even be realavant...and i think you'll like it more as time goes.

Edited (PSS)
we didn't breastfeed, but my son is now two years...so pretty much a non-issue now for us.

we only co-sleep in the mornings (not at night).

i tried slinging, but didn't like it,

i pretty much held him 24/7 newborn....but once they walk (FORGET IT ANYWAY)

so, time changes stuff is my point


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I'm glad you came back.









Quote:

_Originally posted by newmommy_
*That being said, I may not breastfeed (not by choice, believe me), I did sling, I do co-sleep, I do not believe in CIO (under any terms) and DH and I will never spank/hit our son.*
Well then what is it that you feel separates you from other mamas here? Sounds like you fit in just fine. What did someone say to you to make you feel like you didn't fit in here?



*Quote:*

If attachment parenting is considered (according to this community) the most effective way to bring our children up into the most loving, safe and secure environment then how does it differ from most *mainstream* practices?
I basically define "mainstream" parenting as that which is the societal norm. As in, if you met ten people on the street and told them you sleep with your child, how many would not be the least bit surprised (I'm guessing maybe one if you are lucky)? Basically, mainstream parenting means that you put your child in a crib because it never occurs to you that a baby might want to sleep next to its mama. And if you are really mainstream you buy the myth that sleeping with your baby is dangerous b/c you might roll over or smother them. And when baby bawls and wakes all night you don't consider it's because babies aren't designed to sleep in isolation, you just consider baby to have "sleep problems' and go buy the latest sleep-training manual. Mainstream says formula versus breastfeeding is simply a lifestyle choice and that formula is "just as good" as breastmilk. Mainstream parenting says you can hold a child "too much' and that babies need to be taught to soothe themselves. Mainstream parenting is obsessed with making babies "independent". Therefore, you don't childproof your home, you just smack their hands if they touch things they aren't supposed to, and you teach them that life isn't fair by letting them cry it out. Mainstream parenting treats spanking as a legitimate option for discipline, and that if there is no power control by the adult then your child must be spoiled. Mainstream parenting advises giving solids in the bottle to help baby sleep better, and introducing jarred baby food right at four months of age. I could go on, but basically what I'm saying is that these attitudes are the *dominant* ones in our soceity and while individual practices may vary (making it very hard to decide if an individual mom falls into either category), they constitute what is "mainstream". _Note it is a societal attitude, and has no basis in science._



*Quote:*

(Most)*Mainstream* mothers do practice extended breastfeeding, they do not believe in CIO, they sling, and some do not vaccinate.
Well, you must live in some nice town because that sure as heck isn't my experience.











*Quote:*

But at the same time I now realize they would not be welcomed on this board








Why not? I'm serious - could you clarify why a mother who does EBF, doesn't CIO, babywears, etc would not be welcomed here? I just don't understand why you would say that.



*Quote:*

Also, considering the term: Attachment Parenting. To me IMO, a lot of emphasis is placed more on the mother than the father (if any). Is there such a term as Attachment Mothering? In our small family, my DH would be truly hurt if he was not *encouraged* to bond as equally with DS.
I hear this alot. Personally, I don't find it that way at all. How does AP not encourage your DH to bond? Does it not promote babywearing, rocking/holding to sleep, cosleeping, etc? Besides nursing (which, despite what mainstream soceity thinks, is not the only way to bond) what is there that a father can't do or that AP *says* he can't do?



*Quote:*

I am beginning to realize there are all sorts of *little wars* between mothers.
Well, don't blame the "wars" on us. If I had a nickel for every bit of lame "advice" offered to me or my friends about how we're holding our babies too much, about how disgusting it is to nurse an infant who is old enough to "ask for it", about how sick it is to have a family bed, about how we're starving our kids by not feeding them solids at 4 months, about how our marriages simply must be in the toilet b/c we actually put our babies' needs ahead of our own (or that we simply COULDN'T have a good marriage without a regular babysitting night). etc. etc. etc....The worst part is these comments have NO BASIS in fact and are even encountered among so-called medical professionals!



*Quote:*

I don't belong here or any other the sub boards within this community as they are all apart of the Attachment community.
Well, I don't really get why you are saying that. But I am very sorry that you feel that way.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

I think that Americans, & those who live in America, have to put up with a whole lot of crap regarding their personal parenting decisions (& i think it is but one example of the judgement that goes on in America about personal decisions). It is not right nor fair for others to walk right up to you & say, 'oh you shouldn't be feeding that baby- he's too big for that now!', or 'you don't really sleep with your baby, do you?- you'll crush him', or 'that baby looks hungry- what do you mean you haven't started giving him rice cereal yet', or 'Ewww, cloth diapers are smelly & unhygenic'. _No one_ has any right to do that- it's rude, it's bossy & it's a rather unattractive character trait that Americans feel this need to tell everyone exactly how they do things & then get offended when you don't immediately jump to do the same. Not all Americans, but many....... The rest of the world really is different folks....... However, it is also not fair for those who are 'different' ie: not mainstream parents to then turn that rude, bossy unsolicited advice giving back into another form of rudeness, by becoming convinced that no, _my_ way is the correct way & anybody who disagrees is wrong. I'm sorry that so many of you have to put up with anti-AP statements & listen to the utter rubbish that comes out of the mouths of some. But it is not necessary to tear others down to make yourself feel better. I am not suggesting that any of the posters on this particular thread would, or have done that....... but I think we can all probably think of examples where that has been done, either explicitly or inadvertently. Just my two bobs worth. Fire away.


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## kofduke (Dec 24, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by newmommy_
*I.

(Most)*Mainstream* mothers do practice extended breastfeeding, they do not believe in CIO, they sling, and some do not vaccinate.
*
**
I'm so sorry you don't feel welcome here. As a WOHM, I sometimes feel the same way. I do have to disagree with this statement,however. Other than LLL and one playgroup friend, where I can't go b/c I work, I've NEVER seen a baby in the sling, NEVER talked to a mom that didn't do CIO, NEVER seen a toddler nurse. MDC is the only place I can get that support.


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## crayon (Aug 24, 2002)

I just read your last post newmommy and I think you seem to fit in just fine. Sure there are those of us who would die if we put a sposie on our baby- but really it is just because we are cloth addicts :LOL They are soooo cute! And you seem to fit in the more AP style than the mainstream style.

I think when talking about the *mainstream* one here tends to think of people who just follow along- do what they are told, never think twice about something because a doctor said so or they heard it was bad or nasty. Like my sister- she is VERY mainstream- she told me that if I didnt circ my son she would not change his diaper because that was *nasty* she never thought twice about doing it never read up on it, never talked to her doctor about it- never did a thing to educate herself. Not that I push either way- (okay well I do- sometimes) but, with her it just makes me soooo







because she doesnt take the time to educate herself to the effects her actions have on her sons. That to me is mainstream.

Yes we are all mamas, but somepeople take their role more seriously than others. And it looks like you are doing a fine job. Now your first post put many APers on the defence- as if being educated and knowing with a passion why we do the things we do is a bad thing- I dont think it was ment to be like that- you are just saying arent all mamas- mamas??? Well, I think that just like everything there are good mamas and bad mamas- now I CD- does that mean I think everyone that doesnt are bad mamas? NO- but I think that hitting out of anger is bad, I think that not caring is bad, I think that too much sugar and tv is bad. You see what I am saying?

I hope you do come back if you do feel you have an AP style- and if you dont go to the boards here that are not your style then that is fine, you just have to find your right fit.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Newmommy, you said a lot of things in your reply post, and I commend you for replying to what we have all said. It seems, though, that people can get hung up on a "term"... i.e. "Attachment" parenting. What it all boils down to is that you see your baby, toddler, child as a person... put yourself in their shoes and make decisions based on what your mothering instinct tells you; what you feel is the best for the child (even though it may not be best/easiest/most convenient for you). My child will be healthier if she is breastfed; she won't be exposed to certain chemicals if I cloth-diaper; she will be healthier if I make wise decisions about vaccinating; she will be a gentle person if I am gentle when I discipline her; she will be better-off socially if I [fill in the blank]. AP is really just a label... maybe it's better to say that those of us here have found that these gentle ways of parenting are rewarding for us and our children. I hope you still feel welcome here because I have found much comfort and rewarding advice. We really are a great bunch of women. And you fit in just fine. Perhaps by sticking around you'll find what you need to breastfeed or cloth-diaper or co-sleep or whatever (!!) with the next one (if you want to). Good luck!!


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Hi again







it's me. First I want to thank you for allowing me the opportunity to express my feelings on this (despite the way I presented my thread) very important topic.

Hi Piglet, I'd like to address some of your comments:

You said/My Replies

"Well then what is it that you feel separates you from other mamas here? Sounds like you fit in just fine. What did someone say to you to make you feel like you didn't fit in here?"

My reply:

That's exactly my point. I don't consider myself separate from the other mamas here (or the *mainstream mamas*). No one has said anything to ME to imply that I don't fit in here. But I do notice that if you break 1 "AP" practice (where ever they are)...(ex...going out on a date with your DH without the baby) then all of sudden you are considered like those *mainstream mothers* and something must be wrong with you if you feel the urge to take a break to give yourself some YOU time. I don't feel separate from *AP Mamas* or from *Mainstream Mamas*. These terms are the ones that are separting the mamas. That is what breaks my heart. Do you remember when you were in high school and how you had the cliques (sp?) of the *popular girls* vs. the *uncool girls* and the pressure you felt to be amongst the popular girls? That is kind of how it feels here. Now...that is just my opinion.

You said:

"I basically define "mainstream" parenting as that which is the societal norm. As in, if you met ten people on the street and told them you sleep with your child, how many would not be the least bit surprised (I'm guessing maybe one if you are lucky)? *Just about every mama I know would not be surprised and would give you their story on how well or not of how it was going for them. I'm not saying they all co-sleep, but alot of them do and they wouldn't have it anyother way. Not because what society teaches them, but because of their mama instincts. Pediatricians, AAP and every other expert can give guidelines to mamas all day but NOTHING can get take precedent over mama's instincts and what feels right to her. I guess, what I'm saying is don't mix what the EXPERTS tell/suggests mamas do to what mamas ACTUALLY do. Try to consider that mamas DO know better what is best for there children*

"Basically, mainstream parenting means that you put your child in a crib because it never occurs to you that a baby might want to sleep next to its mama. And if you are really mainstream you buy the myth that sleeping with your baby is dangerous b/c you might roll over or smother them. And when baby bawls and wakes all night you don't consider it's because babies aren't designed to sleep in isolation, you just consider baby to have "sleep problems' and go buy the latest sleep-training manual." *Do you really believe that, in general, when a mama first brings her baby home from the hospital, her FIRST instincts (especially a mother who breastfeeds) will not be... to hold her baby on her chest? My pediatrician's prescription order was to to let our baby sleep on our chest skin to skin contact. But my mothering instinct would'nt have had it any other way. IMO.*

"Mainstream says formula versus breastfeeding is simply a lifestyle choice and that formula is "just as good" as breastmilk."*Piglet, honestly where in the world are you getting this information? I have not heard 1 single doctor NOT encourage a mother to breastfeed. Including the AAP. Seriously...have you ever heard of Promoting National Breastfeeding Awareness Week? And WHO is Mainstream. Please tell me who this person is or who they are? Also can you find me some information that says this? Formula is a LAST LAST resort and for mamas who feel horrible to have to resort to it (for reasons beyond their control) They (the formula companies) say that they have tried to get formula (or the ingredients) as close as they possibly can to breastmilk 'but buyer beware, it will NEVER be the same so please try to breastfeed your baby'. This is promoted by most formula companies. Period.*

"Mainstream parenting says you can hold a child "too much' and that babies need to be taught to soothe themselves. Mainstream parenting is obsessed with making babies "independent". Therefore, you don't childproof your home, you just smack their hands if they touch things they aren't supposed to, and you teach them that life isn't fair by letting them cry it out. Mainstream parenting treats spanking as a legitimate option for discipline, and that if there is no power control by the adult then your child must be spoiled. Mainstream parenting advises giving solids in the bottle to help baby sleep better, and introducing jarred baby food right at four months of age. I could go on, but basically what I'm saying is that these attitudes are the *dominant* ones in our soceity and while individual practices may vary (making it very hard to decide if an individual mom falls into either category), they constitute what is "mainstream".Main*Please, where is this? Seriously, I have got to see this statement backed up.*

"Well, you must live in some nice town because that sure as heck isn't my experience"

*You know, you could be on to something here, because I experience and see totally different mamas than what you are saying. Also What types of resources do you get your *mainstream* information from...Not mamas but the EXPERTS?*

"Why not? I'm serious - could you clarify why a mother who does EBF, doesn't CIO, babywears, etc would not be welcomed here? I just don't understand why you would say that."

*Because these are just a FEW "AP" practices here. Consider this... What if she does not co-sleep? What if she vaccinates...ALL of them? What if she feels the urge to have some *her time* Is she still welcomed here? I really don't think so , again because of this STRICT adhered to label/term Attachment Parenting. I get the feeling here it is either ALL or nothing.*

I too could go on and on...but I just wanted to address some of your questions/comments.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I have to agree with piglet, I don't know any parents IRL that nursed toddlers, used cloth, questioned vax at all (let alone skipped any), co-slept, used a sling and don't spank and never did CIO.

Good for you that all these things seem to be the norm where you are. But it is not the general societal norm in the US.


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Wow. First of all, I think Piglet was stating her opinions based on her own experiences. I don't think she was saying they were scientific evidence. It seems like I have had many of the same experiences with "mainstream" parenting that she has.

I have had many, many friends tell me that formula is as good as breastmilk, co-sleeping will ruin my marriage, and holding my baby all the time will create a spoiled brat. People are getting this info somehow. People DO believe these things. I think that in our society, mamas are taught not to trust their mothering instincts. It was instinct that told me to bf, co-sleep, and hold my baby 24-7, but with so many people saying these things are unneccessary or even harmful often makes one second-guess themselves. Fortunately, I had MDC to reassure me that trusting my instincts is the right thing to do no matter what others are telling me. I have read in numerous "mainstream" magazines that formula is as healthy as breastmilk, circumcision outside of religious beliefs is healthy, and co-sleeping is dangerous. Parenting is one magazine that comes to mind.

Quote:

Because these are just a FEW "AP" practices here. Consider this... What if she does not co-sleep? What if she vaccinates...ALL of them? What if she feels the urge to have some *her time* Is she still welcomed here? I really don't think so , again because of this STRICT adhered to label/term Attachment Parenting. I get the feeling here it is either ALL or nothing.
You are completely wrong about this. There are mamas here who vaccinate. I know this because I am one of them. There are also mamas here who do not co-sleep. Co-sleeping is not for ALL babies. Some babies prefer their own sleeping space. AP is about respecting and realizing your child's needs. Finally, I don't see how you missed this thread. It's right below this one:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...hreadid=130630


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Yeah my neighbors are fairly typical parents and they are the "go get the switch so I can swat you" kool aid in babies bottle, CIO, fully vaxed, plastic diaper, FF parents.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Newmommy-

I have been following the thread all along here and finally- from your most recent post- I see the problem.

Evidently you live where we all wish we did. Most mamas here live what Piglet described, we talk about it all the time- it's why most of us feel the need for a space like this (MDC).

Other than LLL- I have never seen a nursing toddler. Other than LLL I have never seen anyone sling-wear. I regularly see people hit or threaten to hit their children. This is the way most of us live. CIO and scheduled feedings are the norm in the US, most pediatricians will recommend both sooner or later, and most parents do both at some point.

You wonder where Piglet is getting this idea of mainstream from (you assume from books) but she has said it, I and others are saying it- "We see it all day long, everywhere we go- outside of LLL meetings and AP playgroups." The parents we know are doing things very differently from us, and we often get dirty looks/rude comments when nursing in public, or wearing baby, or when, heaven forbid- someone hears that we sleep with our children.

So, I think therein lies the problem- you are living where AP is normal- we all want to be wherever you are







and you are thinking that it's normal in other places-----IT"S NOT! You are very lucky


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

I agree 100% with Piglet - I am still wondering where you live. If I went down the street and asked people what they thought about how I parent, many of them would probably call CPS and report sexual abuse (seriously, a lot of people think that about my EBF my 2.5 yo and co-sleeping with both him and my 4yo DD).

I vaccinate. I spend at least an hour away from the kids every couple of days (and even *gasp* am a full-time student who takes frequent breaks - on a year-long one right now - but would spend 6+ hours a day away from the kids every semester I take classes). I have never felt anything less than welcome here. In fact, there are little mini-communities for people like me (full-time students and WOHM) that are fully supportive - right here at MDC. I am a person who needs a break. If my kids hadn't spent any time away from me I'd be a nutcase. My parents and DH's parents are all very AP-type people and we are fully comfortable leaving the kids with them - I also frequently leave the kids with DH frequently for an hour or two while I go work out or sit somewhere quiet and read or something similar. IMO, my DH is a parent too and as another attached parent, has the same abilities to watch the children as I do, and as soon as the child didn't need to breastfeed so often, I very frequently would go somewhere while DH watched the children (just as he frequently goes out while I am watching the children). I have a feeling that most of the mamas here take breaks like this every now and then, if not to the extent that I do, and that very few have spent 100% of their time (or close to it) with their children since birth). They and I are all welcome here, and I have never felt otherwise.

OK, I have started rambling. My point was, I agree with what Piglet says and think that her post laid out point-by-point what many of us have been thinking about the whole issue.


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

I have to agree with the previous posters. In my town, I have seen ONE mom NIP. Count 'em... ONE. I usually see babies propped in carseats drinking a bottle of what looks to be formula. The baby is carried everywhere in the carseat and I usually don't see the baby held at all. Often, the bottles hold liquid that is colored RED. Hmmm, must be koolaid or something similar. Kids are often yelled at and treated the same way in response. I am usually met with surprise when people find out that I gave birth without an epidural (let alone at home <gasp!>). A mom I met one day proudly announced she nursed for six weeks... did I nurse at all? Yes, I nursed until dd weaned at 20 months. Her jaw dropped. She thought she broke a record, and she probably did among her friends.







Don't tell people you co-sleep because all they will say is "they'll never leave your bed". Well, I don't know too many college students who have to commute because they miss mommy and daddy at night.







:

I don't know where you live, but it must be nice! I am a real oddball where I live, so it's nice to come to MDC and be among friends.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I vaccinate and don't co-sleep, and no one here has told me I'm doing something wrong or depriving my child or am not really an AP parent. I just don't post in the vax or family bed forums.

Also, I don't really consider myself to be an AP parent. At least, not with dd. Maybe with #2 I'll be more attached. But I think I feel the same way about many issues here, so I fit in well enough.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

I live in a town where there are some AP moms but lots more mainstream moms . BUt even amoung the AP moms......we all do things differently. Some vax, some circumsize, some homeschool, most work.........just like here on MDC. And we are all friends, despite our differences.

But if you feel like the "uncool girl at high school".......well, thats how you feel and no one here can change that for you.

We have found a community at MDC where we are accepted, where we can vent about things we have a shared frustration about, where we can cry and share our tragedies.......theres room for you or anyone else that comes from a place of respect. However, if you dont feel welcome....its always a good idea to keep looking for a place you do.

I dont see why we have to defend a place we find solace in...........to someone who wants to argue that fact.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Well, I see the OP's point, actually.

I don't use the term "mainstream," ever.. because I think it is both meaningless (totally subjective judgment) and divisive.

I don't label myself, and I certainly don't think I have the right to label others.

I live in Atlanta, which isn't exactly a bastion of progressive thought on ANYTHING.. but I know very few moms who do the things Piglet68 describes. Maybe it is the circles I hang out in.. but I know plenty of people who don't parent like I do.. but who don't do the things Piglet68 describes.

I dunno. I too think the labeling is pretty unproductive. But I am obviously a minority in that sense.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I just wanted to say thankyou, newmommy, for taking the time to respond to my questions.









I have to say, you must live in some nice town, lol. I don't have alot of statistics to back up my statements about what constitutes the "norm" for parenting in western soceity, but rather go on my experience, which mirrors what most mothers here say: I'm the minority, lol. Actually, I don't usually feel that way only b/c I hang out with LLL mamas and hang out here. But when I look around at the world outside that circle, it's not the same world as mine! And of course it can vary a great deal. Come spend some time here on the West Side of Cleveland and I'll give you $10 for every baby you see breastfed. You won't make much money, lol.

There are a couple of "facts" I can bring up though. What percentage of babies would you guess cosleep in the US? Based on surveys reported in Mothering (and I"m going from memory here since I lent out my cosleeping issue...) but it was about 1/4 who reported cosleeping full time. About 1/4 who did it part time. And fully 1/2 of babies were in a crib from day one. (and this was infants only, not taking into account family beds or cosleeping toddlers). You can't tell me that 75% of babies would rather spend most or all of their time in a crib, if given the choice. That's just not natural. Sure, many will be better off, but not most.

Also, look at formula feeding rates. While about 80-some percent of women "attempt" to breastfeed at birth, by 3 months of age, the rate drops precipitously to something like 40% and then by six months it's like 20%. Do you really believe that only 20% of human females can successfully breastfeed their infants to 6 months? We would have died out as a species long ago! The truth is, in countries where BFing is given the support and promotion and education it needs, rates are over 90%. You can't convince me that every women out there who feeds formula did it because they were physically incapable of making milk.

Anyways, I wanted to tell you that I, MDC moderator, did not have a natural birth (I actually had a <gasp!> scheduled cesarian), and I did almost all the vaccines, and I didn't cloth diaper until my DD was 8 months old. Nobody has ever made me feel like an outsider or unwelcome here. In fact, I dare say very few of us could match up our "AP" credentials line for line and be the same. That's what makes this place nice, actually! So I hope you will stick around!


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Well mamas (with the exception of asherah...maybe to a certain extint?), we are going to have to Agree to Disagree with re: to this label of AP vs. Mainstream. And that is okay.

But, can I ask a favor please? (And I am not talking about IRL friends/people you know)

If you see a mama who is bottlefeeding her baby...can you please not assume/label/judge her "look at that mainstream mama, how dare she put that bottle of formula in that baby's mouth?" and instead consider that maybe she was not able to breastfeed her baby because of medical reasons that were beyond her control? Is that even remotely possibe?

If a mama decides to use a crib...instead of co-sleeping...can you try your best to understand that this is what works for Her family... and consider that she still loves her baby as equally as an "AP" mama?

If a mama works outside of the home...can you please consider that she HAD to and that by NOT working..she would not be able to put a roof over her baby's head...clothes on her/his back...etc.. and that BY working...she is showing love to her baby still?

I remember a while back...I started a thread on this board (I forget which) that I was exhausted from lack of sleep because I was always checking to see if my DS was breathing. Well, I started the thread with a few introductions about myself... one of them being that my DS was formula fed. I was asking for support/comments or a "you are not alone" type thing and suggestions as to how *I* could relax and *try* to sleep when my DS slept. But I was so tired and exhausted...anyway someone responded to me and Instead of addressing my sleep concerns they asked *judgementally* "Why is your son formula fed? Why is he not breastfed?" and maybe 1 or 2 other mama actually addressed the sleep issue. That was it...nothing else. So, I had to address the formula issue to that mama. But in my mind I was like...(what in the world has that got to do with anything lady? I'm just trying to get some sleep here... and you are talking about formula...geesh!) I guess that should have been a red flag huh on how serious this community is? But I was too tired and sleepy







to really notice anything.

My point is this...does it really matter what parenting choices we believe is right or decide what is right for our family...as long as our children grow up to be smart, spirited and capable adults? As long as we are ALL reaching for a common goal no matter HOW we get there?

And of course, I am not talking about the obvious "abnorms" like child abuse, neglect etc.. I am talking about the basics:

Breastfeeding
Co-Sleeping
Slinging
Vaccinations
Cry it Out
Starting Solids
Cloth Diapering
Working outside the home
etc...

Many mamas around the world practice some or all of these things. But as long as we provide our children in loving and stable environments and they have become mature, responsible and secure adults...then in the end what did it all really matter if a mommy did not co-sleep? Think about this...your child (an AP mama's child) reaches 21 (and this is just a number) and he/she is a independant/mature/stable adult that loves and respect you...wonderful isn't it? Now...consider this...(A Mainstream mom's child) reaches 21 and he/she is an independant/mature/stabe adult that loves and respect her...ALSO wonderful isn't it? Both mamas have gotten to the same place. And guess what...I've seen it happen before...

Just my last .02 cents.


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## LisainCalifornia (May 29, 2002)

When I had my first two kids we were living in San Francisco, which would be considered a *very* AP community. I was still told by many parents that I should not be co-sleeping (dangerous, that is why he is not sleeping through the night, yada, yada...). I nursed my first two kids for 2+ years (almost 3) and believe you me this was *not* the norm among all the moms I knew. People thought I was really weird, as a matter of fact. I would go to mom's meetings at Parents Place in San Francisco and they would all be talking about "sleep training" and crying it out and how they only got through it by using ear plugs and drinking wine while their child cried all night. That was my norm--and I felt a little strange that I was the only one that was not into that CIO stuff that everyone else was talking about at great length.

My parents, inlaws, and regular friends thought I was doing something truly bizarre and "unhealthy" by co-sleeping and nursing for so long--and they told me that often. I did not know
about Mothering magazine then--I felt alone in my choices. I was shocked when I found this board and saw that people were talking about similar parent styles to how I parent. There are many differences too, but I have never felt unwelcome here because of it. I have always used disposable diapers (after a miserable failure with cloth with my first) and my 3rd child came home to us from China unwilling to co-sleep at all. I fully vax my kids. We can't be all the same--and no one here expects us to be.

I also post on a few mainstream boards (and one wonderful adoption board) and they by and far think it is "unhealthy" to co-sleep and do believe in sleep training and other issues that I don't see eye to eye on. But I still have friends there that I love--it is not "my way or the highway", just different styles.

I think you know all of this is outside of the mainstream, but are afraid of losing this argument and are denying it. I did go back and read your post about leaving your child to go out with your husband. I don't really go out with my husband in the evening when my kids are very young (under 2) as I don't think it is best for my kids. But that is just me. I can see how it was a problem for you, as you had been at work all day and then dropped him off at your mom's house for a night of babysitting. By then your baby is starved for your touch and comfort. I think you should (as other posters mentioned) wait till your baby is a bit older to do this, and maybe try shorter daytime outings with your hubby after he goes down for a nap and your mom watches him at your house so he feels more secure. That is probably not what you want to hear, but it is my two cents and you are free to ignore it.

I hope that things smooth out and get a bit easier for you--and I know they will. That first year of parenting with your first child is brutal--I remember!! Hang in there.

Lisa


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## LisainCalifornia (May 29, 2002)

Newmommy,
We were cross posting--I wanted you to know that. I just read your reply. Hmm...well, I think you are the one that is judging most of us here harshly, not the other way around. There are crackpots and unkind in every community (online or real life) but that is not the majority here. The majority of women here who post are actually kind and want to help. It is a "Mothering" board, which caters to an alternative method of parenting, which is actually a good thing. It is filling a void among other parenting boards that are aimed at other styles of parenting. I come here for that "other" perspective, as do other moms. But that does not make us judgemental shrews--most of the women here are willing to accept you with open arms, but do you feel the same?


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

In Newmommy's defense, it is easy for people to feel "judged" by SOME post-ers here if they don't do "all" of the AP stuff (especially BF and co-sleeping). I too have felt that way on more than one occassion. I've adopted a thick skin, and learned to stay away from the BF boards because, while I still BF at night (daughter is 14 mo), I also formula fed during the day because of pumping issues and work. Anyway, it is easy to start feeling a little on the "uncool girl" side of the world at times. See, even in this post I'm feeling the need to "qualify" my answer so people don't make (or think) snide comments. I suspect that should tell you (general, plural, why don't we have a better word for that?) something about how SOME people react here.

This community can get judgemental. It doesn't always, it's not everyone. Its worse in some places than others. But it does happen and I understand exactly how Newmommy feels sometimes. And I would second her plea to everyone to assume the best instead of the worst when you see or hear of practices that you disapprove of.

Oh, and one more observation. This does have a lot to do with where you live and who your friends are. I'm so sorry for Piglet and others who never see others "like themselves". It took the longest time for me to understand this because around here and among the people I see, slings are common, everyone BF as much as possible, and so forth.


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## gossamer (Feb 28, 2002)

Quote:

This community can get judgemental.
I can completley agree with this statement, but I wonder if this community gets judgemental because a lot of us go day after day after day being judged for choices we have made. It is nice to come here and say "would you believe what I just saw?!" and know that most of the mommas here will agree with me instead of arguing why there is nothing wrong with that. Parenting is a very touchy subject and it is nice to have a community of like minded mommas to bounce ideas, thoughts, reactions and emotions off of each other. I agree that labels can be devisive, but so can parenting styles. Mothering and MDC have shown me different and new ways to parent my child physically, emotionally and spiritually. For that I will be eternally grateful. And when the chips are down, the MDC community rallies around. That has been my experience.
Gossamer


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I guess it goes back to you IRL community. I must say that I have never felt judged by anyone around me (well, my mother worried that sleeping with a newborn is dangerous, but that's about it). But I have felt judged by those online on occassion. Maybe you all should move to San Diego? OK, so its probably not perfect here either, but I guess I have a great group of friends and am in a good place, geographically, to parent my way (which, if I had to characterize it, would be AP-lite). If I stop to think about how lucky I am, then a lot of what others say about needing this to be a "santuary" makes more sense. But I have to actively try to remember that the rest of the world isn't like my day-to-day world.


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

ITA with Gossamer

I wanted to add that while I may vent sometimes here about how mean CIO is or something to that effect, unless a mom is looking for the input I wouldn't say anything to her. Same about breastfeeding. A very dear friend of mine was unable to breastfeed through no fault of her own and I know how painful it was for her that I did and she couldn't - and would never dream of saying something to a mother I didn't know because there is that chance that the same situation may exist and I may be hurting someone very deeply.

I do want to be able to come here and vent all my anger about people giving me crud about EBF my 2.5yo though, you know? If that implies that I don't accept people who think breastfeeding is disgusting, too bad (actually, I do - I am perfectly capable of disagreeing with someones opinion on some issue and liking that person at the same time). I am not willing to disclaimer myself over and over again to eliminate any possibility of ill feelings on anyone else's part.

And about the labelling thing - I don't label other mamas, but I DO label myself, and I don't see the problem with other mamas labelling *themselves*. There are PRACTICES that I tend to label mentally, but since we don't get a whole picture of a mother just by seeing/meeting, or heck, even writing back and forth as in on these boards, I don't feel like I've got any right to try and box someone in like that. I like to label myself because it gives me something to identify with, and I am sure other mamas here feel the same way. Maybe if I was more secure I wouldn't need that, but I do.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

That's a good point, gossamer.

I also wanted to say, newmommy, that I would NEVER presume to know why a mother is feeding formula. A very good friend of mine ended up FF after a miserable bout with severe PPD. I certainly don't judge her, and I always have her in mind, as well as the many other women on this board who could not BF for whatever reason, when I see a mama feeding formula. I think you need to take a good look at posts that make you feel uncomfortable and ask yourself if someone is just ranting about how much they hate formula, or how much it bothers them that FF rates are so high, versus criticizing you or anybody else as an individual for their choices. It's entirely possible to be an advocate for BFing and not judge any individual mama for her choices. I know it must not be easy to hear about how substandard formula is when that is all you are left with to feed your child, but please don't blame those who have been fighting upstream for decades to get that simple fact out there. It's not personal, so please don't take it that way.

And as for working out of the home, goodness me - I went back to work full time when DD was 15 months old, not because I had to but because I *wanted* to and it felt right! Did you know we have a working mamas forum? Come and join us!









I have to say though, that I think we can take this "do what works for you" stuff a bit too far. I really don't believe it is in the best interests of our society's children to be sleep trained in cribs. I don't believe it is in the best interests for everybody to be using disposables. I don't believe it is in the best interests to continue accepting the notion that babies can be held "too much" and spoiled. It's just not realistic to do what you suggest, just "love everybody and all get along".

Some of the choices you talk about are not as benign as what theme you choose for the nursery. Society as a whole pays a cost for how we fail our children. Just look at SIDS for example. I honestly believe that the world would be a better place if AP was the norm. Keeping in mind that AP means following your child's cues, so that each parent will not end up doing the same. But they will be doing what their baby needs most. And to me, that IS important to fight for.


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## lunchbox (May 14, 2003)

Just adding my two cents...

I primarily post on another parenting board - been there since I found out I was pg in Setp 2001. I came to learn about the AP philosophy there and have happily embraced it. Following my instincts with my child works so well for us, even though I've had to face a lot of flack with family and friends. IRL, I have very few mom friends outside of LLL because there are not that many APers in my rural area.

It is very hard for me to discuss parenting issues with mainstream parents, and I am sure it is the other way around. I much prefer to seek parenting advice from other AP parents. That is the reason I've been coming to this board more frequently. I have very strong feelings about BFing (think militant wing of LLL).

And while I don't consider myself super crunchy, I have my crunchy leanings.

Before I join any message board, I lurk for a good while to determine if its for me.

And I agree - I don't think that the OP understands that this site is an extension of the magazine.


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## daria (Feb 11, 2003)

I see incredible variation in parenting styles between the city in which I live, and the one I commute to for work. The city I live in is a progressive university town that is a suburb of the state capital. Every parent I am friends with in my town felt that breastfeeding was a big priority, that CIO is not appropriate, believes in gentle discipline, etc., even though I don't think even one of them would label themselves "AP". I don't know who co-sleeps because it never really comes up.

In the more rural city I commute to 40 miles away it's very different. My coworkers think I am some kind of deranged martyr freak for pumping milk during the workday for my baby. It seems to almost kinda piss some other moms off, like what am I trying to prove? The constant question, "Is he sleeping through the night yet?" is always followed by a dropped jaw when I say, "Well, he sleeps with me, so I don't really wake up when he needs to nurse." No one around here thinks there is anything wrong with "popping" a kid who deserves it. And you would think slings and NIP had been banned in this county.

So I think there really can be very extreme variation in what might feel "normal" in a particular area based on what you might see other parents doing day to day.


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## lunchbox (May 14, 2003)

Just wanted to add that some of the things mentioned in this thread fall more along the lines of "natural parenting" and not necessarily AP. For example, I think of CD as more natural parenting. And while many APers tend to embrace NP, that is not always the case.


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## Kinipela79 (Apr 8, 2003)

I thought I would jump in an add my opinion...(yes yes...I know you were all just waiting in breathless anticipation for it) but when I read the OP I thought NewMommy was saying that even if you don't do all "AP" stuff it doesn't mean you love your baby any less? Which I can totally understand because sometimes while people are venting about things they see (and I do it too! Ask my DH!







) but it goes beyond just a vent to where you get the feeling that because someone does something wretched like give a baby koolaid (I didn't even know people still drank that!! lol) that she must not love her baby very much. With my first I only bf for about 3 months and then gave up because it hurt so bad, used disposables, started solids at 4 months on the dot, let him CIO, used a stroller or infant seat a lot and probably many other things that people would post about here. But I loved my baby more than life itself. I could have layed for hours on the bed playing with him (and I did!). I never knew how much you could love someone. He is 5 now and we are extremely close. He is very sensitive and creative and we have such a great time just hanging out and snuggling to read a book or whatever. I was 18 when I had him and pretty uninformed about raising a kid. So now I feel a little older and wiser with my ds2 and would never let him CIO, got help from an LC so bfing is going GREAT, co slept till about a month ago but I still love him just as much as Trevor. Does that make any sense? I would just hate to judge that someone doesn't love their kids because they are mainstream. I could be totally in left field with this post and it not have anything to do with anything but if you've read this far...you're a saint! lol Now off to go give Owen a big bottle of koolaid! :LOL Just kidding.


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

I remember your post newmommy on the Life with a Babe board, I responded and did not bash you for FF. I did wonder why, because so many moms do and I am always curious if they bothered to try to nurse. I don't think you were harassed for it. I do remember wondering why you were posting on an attachment parenting board about leaving your baby all evening after working all day. What did you expect us to say?

And you're right, I shouldn't judge moms who are feeding their baby from a plastic container. But when I go out for the day and I don't see a single baby nursing and I see 20 different babies eating from a bottle that does NOT look like breastmilk (I pumped for dd when I was at work part-time and bm does not look the same as formula IME) what am I supposed to do? Cheer?

It's sad that only 17% of babies are breastfed at 6 months old. I have sympathy for those in the 82% who quit for various reasons such as no support, lack of supply and I totally







over those in the 82% who think it's gross (get over it!) and for the 1% of women who truly cannot breastfeed... if I have ever judged you, I am truly sorry.

I just get annoyed by the PREVALENCE of the FF etc movement I have in my area.









BTW... it might interest you to know that I was a part-time working mom when I joined Mothering. I made it known that I would be very happy when I could quit work and that my dd was cared for by my mother (not all are so lucky I know) and no one ever made me feel like a bad mother. And when I posted my excitement on my last day of work, MDC mamas celebrated that something our family had needed for so long came about. I know of a few single moms who have to work and use daycare and they are welcomed here. We don't expect them to leave the kid(s) home alone.


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by lunchbox_
*Just wanted to add that some of the things mentioned in this thread fall more along the lines of "natural parenting" and not necessarily AP. For example, I think of CD as more natural parenting. And while many APers tend to embrace NP, that is not always the case.*








True! I am some of both actually.

I do whatever works for my kids and I at the moment and that's truly what it's about.


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## thinkingcapp (Jul 30, 2003)

I think this thread is bringing up some very valid and interesting points of view about how your environment, community, family, culture and friends can influence the way you parent... or the opinions you have about what you feel is the 'right' way to do things. The thing I get from MDC are insights and ways of thinking about certain topics that I haven't found other places.

I was recently having a conversation with another mother I had just met. We didn't know each other at all... so essentially we were doing 'mom small talk.' She said to me, "I love those Baby Einstein Videos! My son (2 months old) will sit in front of those in his bouncy chair FOR HOURS and be totally happy! They're great!" Now, this was offensive to me on so many levels based on my beliefs of what is good for a child (i.e. no TV and babywearing) but I told myself that those are her decisions and that I need to respect her right to make those decisions... Perhaps in her sphere of being she's never been exposed to any concepts of AP or Natural Parenting... perhaps if we were to see each other more often she would see the way I am with my ds, hear me talk about extended BF, babywearing, no TV, etc etc and perhaps that would start to open her up to another way of viewing things. For me, rather than 'judging' people, I strive to be open to their experiences, opinions and the factors that give them those opinions. If I can educate or influence by example and my generally positive attitude: Great!


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## sleepies (Nov 30, 2001)

i guess it is different different areas of the country.

i live near st louis mo.

here, NO ONE USES BOTTLES.

everyone nurses.

they all seem to nurse at least a year here.

im sure it varies by location


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## lunchbox (May 14, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by thinkingcapp_
*For me, rather than 'judging' people, I strive to be open to their experiences, opinions and the factors that give them those opinions. If I can educate or influence by example and my generally positive attitude: Great!*
I tend to be very judgemental, but I am really trying harder to influence by example like you said.


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

The poster seems very defensive about things that are what most moms in this country do. Why? And why seek out this board, when there are places like parentsplace.com where AP is in the vast minority? I think this mom is asking for help!

To the original poster: Sure, I could use a break from my ds sometimes, but I have no family in the area and dh has a near-clinical distrust of anyone outside the family taking care of our baby, so count yourself lucky that you have a mom to take care of your baby sometimes. However, not everyone feels the need to have a break, or has someone they can trust to help them, so they learn to deal with it.

Diapers: I used sposies on ds until he was 6 months, mostly because our apartment's washer was busted, so I hear you about the diapers. And working outside the home would make cloth harder. I understand all that, but still, you should research both sides so that you can see where the cloth advocates are coming from.

Hope you feel a little better after venting.


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## thinkingcapp (Jul 30, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by lunchbox_
*I tend to be very judgemental, but I am really trying harder influence by example like you said.







*
Believe me, I am judgemental as well... but I am trying to catch myself in those thoughts and analyze a little deeper...
Part of this (a BIG part) comes from judgements I had made about how my mother parented me that I see in a totally different light now that I am a mother myself. I have empathy for her decisions now, rather than anger. It made me realize that I really need to be sensitive to judging others when I am not in their exact situation.


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## hypatia (Apr 29, 2002)

Quote:

Also, considering the term: Attachment Parenting. To me IMO, a lot of emphasis is placed more on the mother than the father (if any). Is there such a term as Attachment Mothering? In our small family, my DH would be truly hurt if he was not *encouraged* to bond as equally with DS. He likes to call it our circle of love.
NewMommy, You hit a nerve with me when you mentioned "Attachment Mothering." Tht thing that surprised me the most about joining the online parenting community was seeing how gendered it is. I was just shocked to see so many families where the wife does most or all of the parenting, and the husband "babysits" every once in a while. I am at a loss to explain why that is, because it doesn't jive with my experience.


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

I think this whole thread kind of hit me the wrong way, at the wrong time.







I am constantly being barraged by family, in-laws, friends, and strangers about my parenting choices. I consider those who are constantly telling me the *other* way to parent my ds, Mainstream_{dictionary meaning: The prevailing current of thought, influence, or activity.}_ .

Quote:

Breastfeeding
Co-Sleeping
Slinging
Vaccinations
Cry it Out
Starting Solids
Cloth Diapering
Working outside the home
etc...

Many mamas around the world practice some or all of these things.
Many mamas _around_ the world, that is right, but it is not the norm. in the states. I very much agree with LisainCalifornia, you have to know that this is not the norm.

I live in New England:
-our ped. told us to go on a cruise for 7 days and let someone else take care of ds (at 3 months of age) and let him cry so we wouldn't be able to do anything about it, and he was serious.
-my MIL said leave him in his bed until he goes to sleep, he'll "scream until he is hoarse, you'll go in to check on him and he will have snot all over his face, and he might even throw up, but he will learn his own privacy"
-I took my ds into the nursery in church a couple of weeks ago, and I started to BF him on the floor. The woman said, "oh, are you _still_ breastfeeding him?!" (he was 7 months old, then)
-my mother has a friend who says, "breastfeeding is just wrong and gross, your breasts are for your husband..."
-I went to the mall last week, and was shopping with ds in a popular childrens store. There was a mother there shopping with her 1 ish year old. She had set him in front of the tv in the back of the store in his stroller so that she could shop. The baby cried for about 20 minutes while the mother continued to shop. She just ignored him, and he wasn't just fussing around...he was screaming.
-a friend of mine and her husband are going to start trying to have a baby. She said to me yesterday, "if it wasn't for you, I wouldn't know anything...i'd just do what ever the doctor tells me because i'm just to lazy to do any research"

I could go on and on...It all isn't so easy as "everybody loving and doing what they think is best for their baby". It is like a belief for me. Breastfeeding isn't a choice, unless it is physically impossible for one to do so. I feel CIO is wrong, and damaging for a baby. Giving a baby solids in his bottle at 1 months, is wrong. Studies have proven it. So you see, some people judge you for what they see you doing...but I am not judging others for what I see them doing, rather for me it is right and wrong. I don't look at a mother and assume she loves her baby less than me, but I do see mamas doing things that I don't *believe* in. I don't think they are bad for the beliefs they have, but mine are just different. I know I am rambling, but do you KWIM?

I am very sorry you could not bf your little one, I know that must be very hard for you.







And to not be able to stay home with your baby when you want to, is really stinky. I am a first time mama, too. I understand the needing to get out thing. I think everyone does to an extent. My ds wore pampers until he was 4 months, I did CIO for a short while with horrible effects and regrets. I almost circumcised ds, but didn't at the very last minute. The main reason we didn't vax to start out, was because shots are painful.:LOL
So, as you can see, I have no room to *judge* other mamas in these forums, but from my learning of natural family living, and my many many mistakes (poor ds







) I have come to have "AP" characteristics as core beliefs for my family. Although, I think I will stop using the term "AP", and change it to NFL...natural family living. Maybe it will be less offensive to others, and it better describes what we are doing here.

Natural {dictionary meaning: Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature, Not altered, treated, or disguised, Not produced or changed artificially; not conditioned}


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

** going to read through the entire thread in a moment...








to the OP.

AP is about way more than just being a natural parenting sort of parent. you don't have to be all natural to raise a healthy, securely attached, loving child.

maybe that gets lost sometimes in all the what-for about organic v. non-organic, vegetarian v. non-veg, cloth v. sposies, bf'ing v. bottles, babywearing v. strollers, etc.

i raised my #1 in disposables, formula fed him, did no babywearing but held him a ton, used a baby swing + johnny jumper... but also coslept when i could, kept him close to me 24/7, kept an open communication w/ him constantly, gentle discipline... etc. i still hold him a ton, keep him close to me all the time, keep communication open and non-violent, etc etc. it was years before i even discovered that the way i raised him when he was an infant wasn't the "only way." i know that sounds dumb but i just didn't know there was an alternative community out there for more natural parents. i don't want to be judged by other mamas for the choices i made, because at the time i made them, i thought they were the best choices i could make. i try not to judge other mamas either for their choices, because you really never know anyone's situation.

(i do, however, get very irked when i see parents in the store w/ pasty kids and a cart loaded up with junk food. my lack of bias only goes so far. once i saw a mother refusing to buy her son salad when he asked for it, when there were sodas, snacks, and other not-so-good foods int he cart. that was just weird...)


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## Kinipela79 (Apr 8, 2003)

Quote:

it was years before i even discovered that the way i raised him when he was an infant wasn't the "only way." i know that sounds dumb but i just didn't know there was an alternative community out there for more natural parents. i don't want to be judged by other mamas for the choices i made, because at the time i made them, i thought they were the best choices i could make.
Yes yes yes...that's what I was saying in my post. I did things then that I would never do now but I didn't know that there was a different way. How can we change that? I try to not preach to anyone and just live a good example while also trying to search out others who example I can follow.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

I did things then that I would never do now but I didn't know that there was a different way. How can we change that? I try to not preach to anyone and just live a good example while also trying to search out others who example I can follow.
i try not to preach either now... i think just living what you believe in is really the best thing you can do. the more exposure we give ourselves simply by being out in the open will help other parents see what they can do in certain situations. i think for every mama who nurses on a park bench, there will be at least a few passerbyes who think "that's a good idea... i didn't realize how easy it was / how convenient / how happy nursing babies are / maybe i'll do that if i have kids..." even if it's not a conscious thought, i think it's stuck somewhere in their mind, so that if the opportunity ever comes up they'll be more likely to think of nursing as normal. maybe the best thing we can do is just live our lives like it's "normal" and hope people keep jumping on the bandwagon to follow our example...


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## Morgraine (Mar 1, 2004)

NewMommy, Of course you love your child - that is not in question.
I like to come to this site because it is like getting together with supportive girlfriends that parent the way that I do. You will see that there is lots of discussion and debate and usually lots of respect. I find that in general society is less supportive of some of my parenting choices and so it is nice to have an on - line "tribe". I feel at home here. When my MIL says, when are you going to wean, or friends raise an eyebrow when I pull out a CD, I know that I have some good support here.
Perhaps you sense a note of superiority in the tone of some threads. . . try to see this as maternal pride in doing an important job to the best of our ability. It can be difficult to go against society, family and friends and do what you know is best for you family.
Peace Stand your ground.


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

Quote:

Perhaps you sense a note of superiority in the tone of some threads. . . try to see this as maternal pride in doing an important job to the best of our ability. It can be difficult to go against society, family and friends and do what you know is best for you family.
That is exactly what I have been feeling, but could not put into words Mograine!








For goodness sakes! I tried to say it in my last thread, and after writing a mile long post, I still said nothing!!!







:

So anyhow...yeah, what she said.


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

Okay, I pretty much almost read the entire thread!!!!








When I was a new mom, I discovered the internet. I found a mainstream board...at the time, I thought I was mainstream..didn't really see a difference....I was asking if anyone else used cloth dipes, cause I had some questions..it was actually a chat board. Nobody even acknowledged me...then I asked again, and I got FLAMED like you would not believe.
I kept going back though,I thought it was the only board out there..anyway..eventually, I stopped going..cause I felt stupid for cosleeping and using cloth...
I stayed away from the internet for a long time. Then my best friend, who is NOT a mom, gave me my first Mothering Mag..and I was flabbergasted...
I came to Mothering.com...and had never heard of Gentle Discipline, yet, that's what I practiced...there was a whole board on DIAPERING..and NOT disposables...And I vaxed my first, not my second. I only bf my first for three mts, am now allowing ds to wean himself...
WE all sleep together...dogs et all.
Oh, and I'm at work as I type this.
I don't appreciate your post much. There are too many boards out there. This is our safe place. If you learn from here, than great. But don't criticize our parenting, our beliefs.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Well, in all fairness, she didn't criticize our parenting or our beliefs.
She criticized divisiveness and judgmentalism.

I guess I have never understood why so many people need "safe space" to vent about how horrible other parents are.
I stay away from the "aren't other people idiots" type of threads.. I don't see that kind of venting as productive at all. I don't understand how railing at people who do or don't do XY or Z promotes AP.

Discussing and getting support for MY choices is great.
Education is great.
Shaking my fist at how stupid, cruel and abusive the rest of the world is... well, I just don't find it valuable.

When I first came here, I was pregnant. And I had all kinds of problems with my SIL, who handled her pregnancy and birth very differently from me. And she parents differently from me, too. She is what you would all label "mainstream..." and she likes Ezzo... (UGH), though she doesn't take him to literal extremes.

I used to post vent threads about her.. and commiserate with everyone about how horrible it was....
only that did NOT help me learn to deal with someone who is, after all, a family member. She and her son are going to be in our lives. Our boys are only two months apart. I had to start letting go of my anger at HER parenting. I had to find a way to make some peace in my family.

So I stopped venting, and started hunting for common ground. It worked. We are MUCH better with each other now. And I learned something about how destructive that kind of "venting" can be.... at least for me. And she is much more open to what I have to say, because I give her much less reason to be defensive. I still don't agree with her choices. But so what? I don't have to go around worrying about other people's choices. I prefer to stay focused on my own. I am raising MY child, not everyone else's. I can do that, while advocating for change and raising awareness out in the world... without bashing anyone.

I have learned much here. About parenting, about myself. I value this community, though it sometimes really upsets me, too.

I don't know why I am blabbering about this in this thread.
I guess I just do understand how the OP feels.
Because I don't think the flame threads or the bash everyone other than us threads are so wonderful either.

Are you all going to tell me maybe I should go somewhere else, too???


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Well - I've managed to read through all of the posts!

Newmommy - I really hope you will stay. It sounds like you will fit in just fine, and this can be a really wonderful place. There are always going to be people on any board who are more judgemental about whatever issue - just learn to avoid their posts! (there is a handy 'ignore' feature that helps you do just that...not that I've ever used it, but it does seem to help some people!).

I agree with you, Asherah - it is much more helpful to try to find common ground with people. Venting doesn't really help you feel better about things in the long term.

But I think perhaps this is a realisation that comes over time with different issues for different people? I know that I used to be much more judgemental about people who chose not to BF than I am now. I still have a hard time completely understanding someone who doesn't even try, but having spent about a year and a half now nursing older toddlers and finding it EXTREMELY annoying, I can more easily put myself in the place of other moms who don't (for whatever reason) try or persevere with BF.

At the moment, I feel pretty judgemental about circumcision, and I think I'm at the stage of needing to vent about how indescribably awful it is. If I stay in the stage, I don't think that will be helpful - but I think maybe it's a stage I need to go through before I can be calmer/more rational in talking to people about exactly why I think it is so wrong?

I guess what I'm saying is - MDC has a lot of members and we are all at different stages in our parenting lives. In general, I stay away from the venting threads (except in the Circumcision forum, I'm afraid), andif I do that, I find that I don't feel there is a lot of judgementalism here.

If there are certain 'AP' things that aren't for you, I'd just stay out of those forums. I used disposables with my first two (I'm a cloth convert - finally!), and I just didnt' go into the diapering forum. Ditto with vaccinations.

But I do hope, NewMommy, that you will stay!


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Oh I have no issues with venting about circ.. or any other PRACTICE.

I have an issue about venting about PEOPLE.
I too feel passionately about circ. But I can talk about that without calling people who did circ stupid, cruel or abusive.

There is a difference between criticizing someTHING... and criticizing someONE.


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:

There is a difference between criticizing someTHING... and criticizing someONE.
I agree with you... There is something profoundly different about criticising a THING or a practice, but the people who observe that practice often find themselves defensive because the attack centers on something that they themselves do. And, possibly feel guilty about.

You know what? Perhaps that guilt, or whatever, is good. If you feel like you need to defend your choices, maybe they aren't the right choices for you. Does that make sense?

Amanda


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

onlyboys: I couldn't agree more.

I'm hearing claims that the message here is if you don't do X, Y, Z then you must not love your children.

NOBODY HAS EVER SAID THAT HERE!!!!!!!!!!























Can we please PLEEEEAAAASE get past that, because it is simply not true.

_okay, deep cleansing breath in, deeep cleansing breath out..._

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if you yourself can't separate advocacy against a THING with personal judgement, then perhaps you need look to yourself, ask yourself why you feel so defensive about a choice you presumably researched?

There's a whole bunch of boards here devoted to the anti-vaccination issue. I vax, pretty much all of them, and I have never, ever, EVER felt badly because of that or felt like an outsider here or even not welcome. Why? Because I am 100% confident in my decision. And what's even nicer about feeling this way is that I can truly respect and admire those mamas who did THEIR research and chose not to vax at all! Isn't that how it should be? I have NO PROBLEM with mamas who do their research and make choices based on what is best for their child.

I also have to commiserate with those who "knew no better" before they "discovered" AP. I also started out my first PG on a mainstream board and thank goodness for one or two "troublemakers" who dared to stand up to the nonsense of CIO, etc. They spoke to my heart. I went to LLL and a mama there gave me this website. It literally changed my life.

I don't think mainstream mamas love their children any less. I don't think they are evil beings. I think that most of them are just IGNORANT. That's not a crime, it's a sad state of affairs is what it is. I proudly tell people about my parenting choices because, well...I have yet to meet somebody who can win a verbal battle with me on the subject,(







<--- me )LOL, simply b/c I can back it up with so many scientific facts (and having PhD after your name doesn't hurt either, lol). So I try to just be a positive example and let people know there are CHOICES out there, and to do whatever baby needs.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Well, I am sorry Piglet68.. but stuff like that HAS been said here at times.
It absolutely has. It has been said about people who vax, people who circ.. and to ME PERSONALLY for working outside the home.

I am bowing out of this discussion now.
I see nothing wrong with a little self-reflection.. but as usual, I stick out like a sore thumb.
So, off I go.

Don't feel bad, Newmama.
I don't actually fit in ANYWHERE, as you can see. But I stay here anyway.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)




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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

If that's directed at me, I have no idea what it means.

OK. No more posting here, I swear it.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Its a shrug............meaning when one person cant get their point across...


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Yes, Piglet, those things have been said here. Perhaps you just haven't seen them.

To the OP, I'm also more mainstream than most here. I ff my two children, who were adopted past infancy. I WOHM and used disposable diapers. I also used a modified Ferber approach with one child, and under the same circumstances, I'd do it again.

However, I've learned a lot here. Not everyone is so judgmental, and if they are, I can deal with it. I share common ground on many issues. I also understand much better a SIL who was totally AP long before it became fashionable.

So, if you find some good here, take what you need and leave the rest.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

In order to truly understand the *differences* of mainstream mamas and AP mamas I need a comparison chart of some sort to the AP practices and the Mainstream practices.

Piglet wrote:

Quote:

I vax, pretty much all of them,
Okay so how does this separate you from a Mainstream Mama who also vax...all of them?







Seriously...

Quote:

I don't think mainstream mamas love their children any less. I don't think they are evil beings. I think that most of them are just IGNORANT.
Ignorant how?







:

Quote:

I went back to work full time when DD was 15 months old, not because I had to but because I *wanted* to and it felt right!
I dunno, isn't this considered a *Mainstream Practice*? Just curious...

Do you see where I am going with this? Again...I'm really trying to see the differences here...if an *AP Mama* does a/few of a *mainstream practices* then how is she a *total AP mama*? Where does one draw the line when a mama is considered AP and is NOT considered AP?

Quote:

I honestly believe that the world would be a better place if AP was the norm.
Can we list the practices of AP norms and what *qualifies* a mama to be considered AP?


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## Kinipela79 (Apr 8, 2003)

I think what really defines "AP" for ME personally is that it is really baby/child centered and a lot of people who parent the "mainstream" way really want their lives to continue the same and have the baby work around them. I think you have to look at it as a whole philosophy and not just a bunch of little parts...maybe it's more the attitude towards children and so things like GD and bfing and whatever just go along naturally with it?


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

I think that a "laundry list" of what makes you AP or Mainstream is EXACTLY what we DON'T NEED.

What makes us AP is a belief in respectful, educated parenting. Most mainstream mamas expect their kids to respect THEM and they don't really consciously live in a day-to-day attitude that is respectful of their child as an individual. This is a tough concept to really 'get' because it is separate from loving your kids. It is even separate from believing you are doing the right thing. The mainstream parent might believe that circumcision is the right thing to do - but is it respectful to their child? No. Do they still love their child? Yes. A mainstream mama would spank a child because they believe it is the right thing to do - they believe that their child should 'mind' them. Is this respectful? No! It is belittling and demeaning to their child - this is not respecting their child. Do they still love their child? Yes!

This conscious attitude of trying to respect our children is what I believe separates AP from the current mainstream practices. That means that AP means that we respect our children - that if the child needs space to sleep we respect that and let him sleep alone - if the child needs cuddling in the night we co-sleep. This is why a 'laundry - list' of what is and isn't AP just isn't possible.

A list of what is AP and not would also be vastly unfair to those who do not fulfill the list for some reason or another. For example, breastfeeding is generally considered a 'more' AP practice, but many mainstream mamas do it and some AP mamas can't - does this mean the mainstream mama is suddenly AP? No. Does it mean the AP mama is suddenly mainstream? No. Because it isn't about fulfilling a certain lifestyle-according-to-the-criteria, it is about a general attitude of respect for our children.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Nicole- ITA- you said that so very well!


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by newmommy_
Do you see where I am going with this? Again...I'm really trying to see the differences here...if an *AP Mama* does a/few of a *mainstream practices* then how is she a *total AP mama*? Where does one draw the line when a mama is considered AP and is NOT considered AP?

Can we list the practices of AP norms and what *qualifies* a mama to be considered AP? [/B]
I think this is where you are going wrong, NewMommy. I don't think it is up to anyone on this board to decide whether someone else is 'AP enough' to be considered an AP parent.

I think the 'AP' and 'mainstream' labels are useful only as shorthand for describing a general type of parenting or set of parenting practices. But I think there are few people who do totally one thing or the other, you know?

And that isn't what is important anyway. I think what Piglet was saying is that she makes the choices she makes - and is comfortable with those. And because of that, she is comfortable here at MDC even when she makes some decisions (i.e., to vax) that are different from the predominant view in the vax forum.

I felt comfortable here, even when I was using disposable diapers (although to be honest, I felt guilty and that's why I avoided that forum! And eventually switched over).

Other moms feel comfortable here even though they don't co-sleep. Or don't nurse 4 year olds :LOL, or eat meat or whatever.

I dont' think anyone (or very few people, anyway) here thinks that you have to do every single 'AP' thing to be considered an AP parent. There are plenty of people here who say themselves that they don't consider themselves AP, because they don't like labels.

I think that if you feel comfortable here, then stay - it doesn't matter if you do 'X', 'Y' or 'Z' that isn't considered 'AP'. What matters is that you are doing what YOU feel is right for you and your baby.

Sure, you get some judgementalism that is really there. But I also think that some people feel judged when judgement isn't intended, simply because other people are making different choices.

It's a hard call. But I do think that when we are, by and large, comfortable with the parenting choices we make, it's much easier not to feel judged.

I have made parenting choices that aren't the 'approved' choices here at Mothering - I'm comfortable with them for me and my family, but I don't feel the need to try to justify them here. And that lowers my own stress level and allows me to learn (and change) as a parent without feeling judged for doing some things differently.

Hope some of this has made sense.


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Nicole - I cross posted with you!

I agree with a lot of what you say about how 'AP' and 'mainstream' parents have different general approaches to parenting.

But when you say that what makes us AP is a belief in 'respectful, educated parenting' - that can be seen as a very judgemental statement about mainstream parents. Do you see what I mean?

In a way, this generalises negatively about 'mainstream' parenting.

I agree totally with the examples you gave, and I do think that there is a completely different mindset with respect to disciplining children (i.e., being respectful of them as individuals and not feeling that our job as parents is just to make them 'mind'), but I can see how when we say things like this, others can feel 'judged'.

I thought your post was very well thought out (and said some things that I missed!), but I just wanted to point this out.

And I'm really not sure what the solution is?







:


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

Perhaps I'm not articulate enough.

I mean that for an AP parent, being educated and respecting our children are the foundations of our parenting. Mainstream parents can still be educated and can still believe they are reciprocating respect with their children, but it isn't the same because it isn't the basis of their parenting style. Does that make any sense? If you asked a mainstream mom whether she respected her children, she wouldn't say "heck no, they should respect ME" - she'd probably say "yes." If you asked her to elaborate, she'd probably talk about how she believed her parenting practices would result in her child becoming more independent or less likely to get sick or allow a better relationship with the childs father or something similar, and that this was respectful because they believed it would create a child who was glad to be the way he was. This is a different perspective and different use of the word 'respect' from that of the AP parent, who believes in parenting based on being respectful to the individual's needs at the time.

If we're trying to set ourselves apart, to define mainstream or AP, we're going to have to deal with the fact that we're different somehow, and believing as I do that just about every parent would be better off adopting a more AP mindset, I'm just not going to be able to make them both sound equally attractive, you know?


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Nikirj, that was a very well spoken post. ITA with everything you said, especially about the crux of AP being its child-centeredness. That's it, that's all there is to say.

Asherah, I wanted to tell you ITA with you as well - some people *do* like to bash "mainstream" parents, not just parenting practices. It's sad but true. I have been guilty of it myself, unfortunately. In my case it stemmed from the insecurity I felt as a new mother. I wanted to compare myself to other people and come out on top because that was validating to me.







: I have grown as a person over the last year and a half (amazing how motherhood will do that to you, huh?) and while I don't post on those threads anymore (or start them myself) I have to admit I still have a mean little voice in my head that persists in saying smug, nasty little things like "I would never let my child cry like that/eat that junk/get that shot" etc. It's something I am working on.

Newmommy, I hope you can get past the "AP laundry list" approach, because that's really just the surface. It's what is in your heart that counts.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

More cross posting madness.







:

I wanted to add that I think what it boils down to is the notion that children need to be "trained". This seems to be a prevailing concept in non-AP parenting. You should train your child not to cry, to be independent, to sleep on their own and through the night - the list goes on and on. This to me is indicative of the parent-centered approach, where the parent dictates what happens and the child must learn to submit. AP parents tend to let the child develop naturally and at their own pace, and give them what they need to do that. It's a whole different mindset, IMO.

I can see how this sounds like I'm bashing mainstreamers. I just can't think of a better way to put it.


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

newmommy, if you continue to try and get the exact list for AP or mainstream, you are missing the point. famousmockngbrd said it exactly in her last post, and that is exactly the difference. Attachment Parenting is child-led, no training, no manuals...natural parenting. Natural meaning, you wouldn't have the "choices" you have now, in the...say...1700's.
Mainstream parenting is more of a list of "how to's" and training. Now, does everyone do everything one way or another...no, it is impossible in such a differse culture. All the other issues, like circ'ing, vaxing, etc. are icing on the AP cake. They are "natural" choices, not "mainstream"...meaning a prevailing current or direction of activity or influence in our society. You are really just offering tit for tat and missing the real point.


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

I see what you are saying, Nikirj - I think your second post clarified what you meant really well.

I actually think your first post was very articulate (I wish I'd said a good bit of it myself!). I guess I just think that it's worth being very careful how we express ourselves and the words we use, as sometimes things can be construed as judgemental simply because of the way we phrase things - does that make sense?

I also liked what you said about AP being child-led, allowing the child to develop at their own pace, without 'training', famousmockingbird - I think that definitely gets to the core of what is different about AP parenting.

And in a way, I think a lot of 'mainstream' parents would agree with what you are saying - as they feel that 'training' their child to behave in certain ways will be beneficial for them in future. I know a mainstream friend of mine (way back when) suggested to me that it woudl be good for my baby to learn to 'self-soothe' when I was refusing to do CIO with her - for her, she does CIO, because she does really believe that that is what is best for her child (I disagree, and I know most others here do as well - but that is her belief, and she doesn't love her children any less than I love mine).


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

I have been reading every post put to this thread. I have decided that it's really taking up too much of my time. This entire conversation is very, very counter-productive. The wonderful thing about AP is that you can basically pick and choose which parts fit your life. (TO ME) being an AP parent mean learning cues and meeting the needs of my child(ren). If I have one child that fights sleep everynight, needs to let off steam and stress and I let him cry in arms, that is meeting the need of my child. If I have a child that I feed on demand...whether that be nursing or formula or solids, that is meeting the need of my child. Knowing when that baby is hungry and feeding him accordingly, that is learning my child's cues. If my child HATES the sling and so I don't force him into it, and put him in a stroller instead, that is meeting the need and learning the cues of my child. If I question my doctor about her practices and how those practices will effect my child, that is meeting the needs of my child. END OF STORY. Telling members that they are AP or are not AP OR telling members that they are more AP than another member is an awful way of supporting each other as mothers.

Piglet, I have never seen anyone tell another member that they love their child more or that they are a better parent either.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

I think Justice2 hit the proverbial nail on the head.



































(I'm not hammering on her head, it was the closest emoticon I could find to "hitting the nail on the head")


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I would like somebody to please post a link to a post where somebody claimed that mothers who feed formula (especially adoptive, physically-disabled, mentally-ill, etc. mothers) or who use sposies, or who vax *LOVE* their children less.

newmommy: I'm afraid you just didn't understand me. My bad. When I said I vax and work outside the home, etc. I meant that these are more what people would consider "mainstream" and yet I feel I am an AP parent and I feel perfectly at home here. My point was, you don't have to do everything "AP" and you can still be welcome here.

But I feel you are hung up on creating a "laundry list" of what are "AP practices". You are totally missing the point. As other posters have said, AP is an *ATTITUDE*. It's about putting your child's needs first. AP is not defined by how many practices you can check off from a list.

Most AP parents cosleep b/c MOST babies prefer it that way. However, if you tried cosleeping and your baby prefers to be in his crib, then putting him in his crib is AP. What is NOT AP is insisting that babies MUST sleep in cribs, even if your kid screams himself to sleep each night and wakes all night long, and you insist on "training" him to sleep there b/c you are under the FALSE (read: ignorant) impression that crib-sleeping is the ONLY way for babies to sleep.

Most AP parents breastfeed b/c it is undoubtedly the best source of nutrition for an infant. However, mom's who cannot BF for whatever reason, can still practice "AP" feeding techniques (holding baby close for feedings, no "bottle props", feeding on demand, etc). What is IGNORANT is believing (b/c nobody educated you) that formula is just as good as breastmilk and that choosing between BF and FF is simply a "lifestyle choice".

Most AP parents wear their babies because MOST babies are happier, more content, and cry less when held close to a person. Some babies just don't like slings, so it would not be AP to force the issue. What is NOT AP is believing that holding your baby too much "spoils them" (again this is IGNORANCE b/c it is simply not true and these women have not been educated to that fact) and so you let them cry in their bouncy seats their swings, their exersaucers, and baby buckets.

Are starting to understand me now? Ignorance is not the same thing as stupid. Ignorance is, literally, "not knowing". Too many women are never taught the TRUTH or the FACTS about babies and they get their parenting practices from the local doctor or what "everyone else" is doing.

AP parents, almost by definition, have to do research and make concious choices because, for most of us, that information is not readily available. Thus, whatever an AP parent does, is almost always done WITH KNOWLEDGE, and as a concious choice to do what is best for the baby. NOT what is most convenient for the parent. And that is why so many of us differ in our individual practices, and yet still come together under the auspices of AP.

Quote:

Telling members that they are AP or are not AP OR telling members that they are more AP than another member is an awful way of supporting each other as mothers.
From what I'm reading, just about every single post to this thread in response to the OP has been saying this as well, so I'm not sure who you are directing this to.


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## thinkingcapp (Jul 30, 2003)

Piglet68,
That was a well-written post. It actually spoke directly to me and my situation as an AP parent. We tried co-sleeping, and honestly, ds was just too stimulated by our presence to sleep... he sleeps like a, well, 'baby' in his crib. I always felt this was my dirty little-non 'AP' secret... your post was a sunshiney moment in my life... because you put such a sensitive issue for me in such a positive light.
I feel like I need to stand up and say,
"My name is Betsy... we don't co-sleep, but we are AP! You Betcha!"

Thanks again, Piglet68... you rock!


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*From what I'm reading, just about every single post to this thread in response to the OP has been saying this as well*
That's my point. That is why this topic is so disturbing, because we are not being very supportive of each other as mother's.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Okay, Justice, I'm forcing you to keep coming back to this thread now b/c I'm confused, LOL!









You said that telling members they are AP or not AP, or saying who is more AP than another, is not good.

I am saying that just about every post here is agreeing with you. Everybody is basically saying "you can't just slap a label on someone based on how many so-called 'AP things' they do". And I have not seen anyone here talking about someone being "more AP" than another. I don't even understand what that means, lol. In fact, IME, it is usually the members themselves who define themselves "I'm not really AP" or "I'm sort of both". I don't see anyone in this thread trying to pigeonhole other people.

So just how confused am I regarding your point?









thinkingcapp: I'm glad I made you feel better. I honestly dont' understand why someone in your shoes would be made to feel bad about doing what their baby likes best.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*I would like somebody to please post a link to a post where somebody claimed that mothers who feed formula (especially adoptive, physically-disabled, mentally-ill, etc. mothers) or who use sposies, or who vax LOVE their children less.
*
I'm actually fairly certain I could find such posts with a little bit of effort, though I don't think sposies have ever come into it. I have also seen posts implying or expressly stating that women who have epidurals or who choose not to homebirth love their children less. The vaccination one comes up a lot, as does circumcision. I will hand it to you, though, Piglet: I've never seen them come up in this particular forum without getting shut down/edited in short order.

At any rate, I don't feel that it makes me any less of an AP. I pay attention to my child's needs, and I work hard to meet them. Sometimes I'll notice a difference between my parenting style and that of someone else, and it will stick in my mind, but it certainly doesn't lead me to believe that I'm a better mother than they are, or a better person. To the contrary, I try to inform and lead by example, as well as asking people why they do what they do. I don't expect other people to make the same decisions I've made, and I don't accuse them of loving their children less just because they're not hypervigilant researching types like I am.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

THis thread HAS turned exasperating. We are all trying to say the same thing, or express something that others arent hearing.......we're beating this horse already!

Piglet......I totally agree......and youve spoken eloquently throughout this thread.

Can I point something out?

If you dont cosleep, (lets use this as an example), and you come to MDC and post here and post there.......how is anyone here EVER going to know that fact? I know, some people put it in their sig line all the AP things they do.....but really, know one s going to know unless you bring it up. And frankly, I believe that most people are in agreement........you do what works for you. Period. You come here to laugh, share experiences, ask for advise......Ive even seen people start threads with "I DONT BFEED, BUT..........LOOKING FOR SUPPORT REGARDING........." And people are pretty respectful about that.

I think this thread has put everyone on the defensive about MDC and AP...when really, I personally dont feel I have to defend this place. (OR my AP choices) Im so greatful to have this community, I cant tell you!! Alot of us feel that way. Im sorry the OP doesnt......but its how she feels. I think we could carry this thread on and on and NOT convince her of anything she feels to be true. Ive been praying a mod would come along and put a lock on it already...........we aint gettin no where......


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I've been thinking about this thread today. I wanted to say a couple of things. 1st, I have read a few (actually, several) other posts about the current atmosphere here at MDC and I think there may be a larger number of "negative" feelings/posts lately (I think it's called snarky). I know other people say that they haven't seen it but I have and so have some others and there is even another thread about the current atmosphere here.

Also, I think the OP's experience is somewhat common for new members. Lots of people have said that they felt a similar vibe when they first came here. I also stressed over the "AP" thing. Personally, I still don't like the term but I use it for lack of a better word. And, like someone said so well, I don't like to label other people so I never (I think) use "mainstream" out of quotes.

Then when you're new here you also have to learn the ways of communication that are best received. I've seen threads that were basically the same turn out very differently just because of the tone.

OP, I would say that you should really listen to what people have said to you here. I'm coming from a place of understanding and I hope you can work things out and stay to contribute and receive from this community. Lots of people have put their precious time into this thread. Maybe it would be best for you to focus on the many supportive and encouraging messages you've gotten.

The best advice I've gotten here is to really, really think of your motivation before you post. OP, were you looking for encouragement to continue on here at MDC or were you looking for an argument? Did you want to help the community to get to a better place or did you just need to vent?

Another idea if you want to stay is to focus on helping others for a while. If I'm feeling pulled into negativity, I usually can pull myself out by using my MDC time searching for threads that I can be helpful on. I'll go back to the infant or breastfeeding threads or anything I think I have some good advice/encouragement on. Maybe that would empower you to stay.


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## melixxa (May 20, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by newmommy_ "Mainstream says formula versus breastfeeding is simply a lifestyle choice and that formula is "just as good" as breastmilk."*Piglet, honestly where in the world are you getting this information? I have not heard 1 single doctor NOT encourage a mother to breastfeed. Including the AAP. Seriously...have you ever heard of Promoting National Breastfeeding Awareness Week? And WHO is Mainstream. Please tell me who this person is or who they are? Also can you find me some information that says this? Formula is a LAST LAST resort and for mamas who feel horrible to have to resort to it (for reasons beyond their control) They (the formula companies) say that they have tried to get formula (or the ingredients) as close as they possibly can to breastmilk 'but buyer beware, it will NEVER be the same so please try to breastfeed your baby'. This is promoted by most formula companies. Period.*
Newmommy, Piglet didn't mention this, but upon reading her post I immediately agreed and thought of the most popular parenting books in the U.S. - all *mainstream* books, as mainstream (I believe in the sense Piglet meant) as it gets.

The single most popular and best-selling book is What To Expect when You're Expecting. I don't happen to have this book on hand here (ha ha!), so I will quote from the Kellymom (http://www.kellymom.com/reviews/revi...ttoexpect.html) review:

Quote:

"... this series gives lip service to breastfeeding in the early months (though much of the info is quite outdated), but gets less and less supportive of breastfeeding as babies pass 6 months. Weaning is suggested well before 12 months. The authors also advocate letting baby cry (to do otherwise is "cowardly") and are very much against co-sleeping. Many moms I know have found that they have gone to the book with a question and come away feeling worried, inadequate and guilty. Here is a quote from What to Expect the First Year:

"'By the end of the first year, however, scientists tell us that breast milk ceases to be adequate--not only is its protein content is insufficient for the older baby, but it suffers from a decline in several vital nutrients including zinc, copper, and potassium. In the second year, infants require the nutrients in cow's milk, and the mother who is still breastfeeding should recognize that although both she and her baby may still be enjoying the experience, breast milk can't be considered a major source of nutrition for her baby. Nor do babies past a year appear to need the sucking breast feeding provides. In spite of much speculation, there's no solid evidence that nursing past the first year--or even well into the second or third or beyond--hinders a child's emotional development. But it does seem that prolonged breastfeeding, like prolonged bottlefeeding, can lead to dental decay.'"
Now THAT is mainstream. That is inarguably whaat the majority of Americans do and believe in (I don't wish to speak for other countries). The proof? This is _the_top-selling pregnancy/childbirth/parenting series!

The other highly HIGHLY successful book series is "The Girlfriend's Guide." I myself actually read "The Girlfriend's Guide to Pregnancy" from cover to cover during a particularly low point of my pregnancy and I can attest quite firmly that this book makes the choice between breastfeeding and formula feeding sound like the choice between two blouses to wear. I am throwing this in here because this is likewise one of the MOST POPULAR PREGNANCY/PARENTING book series out there. Americans are basically scarfing down the information in these - yes - mainstream books.

Quote:

*Because these are just a FEW "AP" practices here. Consider this... What if she does not co-sleep? What if she vaccinates...ALL of them? What if she feels the urge to have some *her time* Is she still welcomed here? I really don't think so , again because of this STRICT adhered to label/term Attachment Parenting. I get the feeling here it is either ALL or nothing.*
None of us is the "perfect APer." In fact, I do not even consider myself AP, have never used the term as a label, never once considered cloth diapering, ended up having a c-section and hospital pain medication up the wazoo, lack many MANY other "key AP credentials" ... and yet this is the only parenting forum I belong to. Because I can come here and get very knowledgable advice about whether organic calendula oil is the best thing for m son's eczema. Because I am committed to co-sleeping and gentle discipline and "full-fledged personhood for small people" and because I am *considering* not vaxing and need more info and input about it. Because no one here would have tsk-tsked me out for sticking to my vegetarian diet while pregnant, for leaving my OBGYN in favor of an attempted homebirth.

In short, I might fail, might pass the "AP entrance exam" if there were such a test. But my point is, I don't really see anyone here suggesting that we administer such an exam to keep the "undesirables" out. It's more that we need a forum of our own and, yes, a haven from the overwhelming world of mainstream ideas to discuss the ideas *we* embrace, ideas for the most part given very short shrift outside these webpages. Even if we all embrace slightly different ideas from one another - I think this diversity of thought is important, too!

Most of all, I come here because the people here are smart and funny and committed to a way of life that puts children first (and I DON'T think that has to mean "no time for Mommy, no me-time ever at all"!), that respects children, that is a "thinking woman's" (if you will) approach to raising kids. I come here because these boards are populated by people who live out their consciences, who trust their instincts and are constantly trying to figure out what the best thing to do is so they can do it.

Yeah, people - in isolated incidents - can be judgemental sometimes. I have seen that happen in threads, I have seen people fly off the handle, take offense, get their hackles up ... and attack other posters. But, hey, that happens in real life, too. Because we're not perfect. Because we can't sit across the living room or the park bench from one another and look each other in the eye while we speak. Too bad! I wish we could - I wish that 98% of you on these boards lived just down the street from me so we could have these talks while walking down the street or sharing a drink.

Well, rambling on here despite NAK. Let me just close by adding, Newmommy, that I hope you stick around. I think the groundswell that your OP and especially your updates inspired should convince you that this is a good, well-meaning, loving, thoughtful place to spend time. I'm sorry if you haven't felt welcome. If I, with all my faults and vices, can simply plop down and make myself at home, I don't see why you can't! Please reconsider.


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## lunchbox (May 14, 2003)

Is there a standing ovation smilie?







There, that is the best I can do.

Beautifully said, melixxa.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Yes, well said, melixxa.

I'm not going to add anything more to this thread now, since I seem to be repeating myself and I can't seem to keep my posts shorter than several paragraphs.









I will say, that I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread, although I admit to getting very frustrated at having to defend this board and AP against all the stereotypes and misconceptions about AP. I'm just so tired of being told that AP is a "laundry list", that AP parents are somehow more judgemental, that the concept of "mainstream" is all in our heads, etc. But mostly, I'm just very protective of this community b/c it is SO unique!
















And now, for a little totally off-topic diversion, I have to thank melixxa for posting the following excerpt from What to Expect...

Quote:

By the end of the first year, however, scientists tell us that breast milk ceases to be adequate... In the second year, infants require the nutrients in cow's milk...
I'm truly flabbergasted that any thinking adult could not read this and grasp the immediately obvious BIZARRE logic in this. Let me get this straight...*human* milk is NOT good enough for human babies, but COW'S milk is????

I would be laughing my proverbial AO if it weren't so incredibly sad that this information is peddled to unsuspecting parents in the name of "expertise".

Is it any wonder that some of us just have to ask what some parents (read: anybody who would actually believe this) are using for brains?? Can nobody in this country think for themselves anymore? sigh.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

Can nobody in this country think for themselves anymore?
nope, nobody can. :LOL


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Sorry, but if someone is going to address me directly, I am going to respond.

Rainsmom- As far as I am concerned, I made my point perfectly well. You.. and many others... are rejecting what I have to say. And that is your prerogative. I could just as easily send you a "shrug" emoticon, or a head-banging emoticon... or imply that you are the one that just doesn't get it... but I don't find that a very productive way to communicate. I respect your right to voice your opinion, and I don't feel a need to belittle you just because we disagree.

I can assure you.. and Piglet68, that I find much of what you are saying as frustrating as you apparently find what I have said.

Piglet68.. you did refer to being tired of "being told that the concept of mainstream is all in our heads," which I assume refers to my rejection of the term.

Well, you are the scientist.

You go ahead and find me objective, empirical evidence that all "mainstream" parents are exactly the way YOU characterize them. Find me proof the term is anything but a construct used to describe "the other." It IS in all our heads. It is an agreed-upon term used to define those who are not like us.. us being, of course, the AP parents. Some people apparently find it useful. But I don't. I am sorry you are tired of being told that... but it is MY truth. I am sure tired of everyone telling me that everyone here is always supportive and wonderful, when they aren't.

I am tired of people who are totally unwilling to look at their words and judgments and even CONSIDER the idea that they are sometimes unproductive and ugly.

I don't mind being the maverick on this one.
I am always willing to admit my flaws and my insecurities.. and always willing to acknowlege that I can be harsh and unfair if I am acting from those things, instead of from my higher self.

I see NOTHING wrong with a little self-examination.. and a willingness to at least CONSIDER how we might come off to others.

You, Piglet68, are one who talks a lot about how defensive other people are. You often say with such certainty that it is because others are insecure about their parenting choices.

Well, this thread is FULL of defensiveness. I wonder why that is?

I really really don't want to be part of this discussion anymore.. and it is not because I am in some kind of snit because I "can't make my point."

It is because I simply feel it is unproductive for me to continue to participate. I am obviously in the minority in my beliefs, and I am not going to convince anyone of anything. I have spoken my truth, and I feel perfectly at peace with it.

But.. if people are going to send me shruggy emoticons.. or make reference to MY words.. I will respond.
I will not allow others to distort what I am saying... or to write me off as someone who "can't make their point."


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:

I will say, that I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread, although I admit to getting very frustrated at having to defend this board and AP against all the stereotypes and misconceptions about AP. I'm just so tired of being told that AP is a "laundry list", that AP parents are somehow more judgemental, that the concept of "mainstream" is all in our heads, etc. But mostly, I'm just very protective of this community b/c it is SO unique!

Yes. This is what my tongue tied typing fingers were trying to say.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

asherah wrote:

Quote:

I am tired of people who are totally unwilling to look at their words and judgments and even CONSIDER the idea that they are sometimes unproductive and ugly.
and

Quote:

I see NOTHING wrong with a little self-examination.. and a willingness to at least CONSIDER how we might come off to others.









Very, very well said asherah and I totally agree with you.

I am OUT of this dicussion.

newmommy


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

I think I'm going to say I'm not coming back to this thread anymore, but don't worry... I'll be back to post more later.









Michelle- INSTINCTIVELLY parenting my 3yo dd and 11mo ds... a little bit of AP and a lot of NFL







And no Girlfriend's Guide or WTEWYE... I threw my copies away rather than risk a susceptible mom reading them!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I know I said I wouldn't post again, but when someone feels I've attacked them, I believe an apology and clarification is in order...

asherah, for what it's worth now, the comment that you quoted from me was NOT directed at you. in fact, I was unaware you had made such a statement. My comment addressed the OP's suggestion that there is no such thing as "mainstream" (and admittedly, her experiences with "societal parenting norms" turned out to be highly non-representative of the experiences of the vast majority of parents here). I thought the points you were making was "what is the value of these distinctions", and also that you were upset about the "I can't believe what this woman did" type of threads (at least, that is what I was understanding you to say). Anyways, I apologize if you felt I was directing my post at you. I can see how that would make you feel attacked. I can assure you that was not my intention. I value your contribution to this thread (after all, a discussion where everybody agrees with each other is pretty boring, isn't it?







).

As for the definition of mainstream, there is no such "empirical" thing, except the dictionary definition which someone else here posted. We've already discussed how societal norms (aka: "mainstream") practices can vary from region to region. Actually, I think you are the one who provided the most accurate definition in your last post: "It is an agreed-upon term used to define those who are not like us".

Well, isn't that what we've been saying all along? My contention is with the notion that we are "all the same". We are most decidedly not, and AP has a certain degree of uniqueness. Now, whether categorizing parenting into these two camps is of any use whatsoever...I suppose that is truly a subjective opinion. I find it eases communication. Others may find it divisive.

FWIW, I thought you made your point very well. I didn't agree with it. You don't agree with mine. Again, that is what makes discussions like this interesting and educational. Someone coming here isn't hearing a lot of "preaching to the choir". They are getting different POV. That's why I thought this thread was really good.

newmommy: I'm sorry you are leaving the thread. Seems that we've been unable to change your opinion that AP is about doing certain things on a list. I suppose if one goes into it with that attitude, one is bound to feel excluded. I think enough people here have welcomed you and encouraged you to stay. If that isn't enough to make you feel like sticking around, I hope you find a community more to your tastes.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

We are cool, Piglet68.

I know I engage with you a lot in various threads, but it isn't because I have a problem with you personally or with what you say.

I just think we are passionate.. and have a lot to say!

And, while we don't always have the same world-view.. we can speak the same language, which makes for good, strong debate.

For the record, I did not feel personally attacked.. more intellectually attacked, which is fine... I just can never resist defending my positions.. probably a character flaw lol.

You are essentially correct in your understanding of what I have been trying to say.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:

Its a shrug............meaning when one person cant get their point across...


Asherah......by that I meant both sides of this arguement......not one side or another. Im sorry you took it as a direct hit on you......I was commenting on the thread and how neither side was getting their point across. I wasnt saying YOU werent getting it........just that NO ONE was getting it.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Thank you Rainsmom.. appreciate the clarification.
I guess I took it personally since it came after a particularly wordy post of mine.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Cool.

Like I wrote in my other posts............this thread has gotten frustrating and emotions are running high. We are all on the defensive...... The title of the thread starts out on the defensive "MAINSTREEM VS AP" So by the very start we are all getting off on the wrong foot. I dont think we are getting anywhere pointing fingers at eachother.


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## Gidget (Aug 31, 2002)

I posted here once a bout a year ago when I was pg with ds2 and dd was only a little over a year old looking for advice. I was at the breaking point. I was still bf'ing dd and she stopped liking the co-sleeping so she slept in her own room, I was working full time out of neccesity and dh was little help. The first woman to respond seemed to want a pissing contest over whose life was harder. She told me there were worse things than an unhelpful husband, and that I messed up ap totally and I should wean my dd and try again nect time. Not only did I disgree on that point, but alot of others responded to her post with outrage. I was totally supported.

I do feel the need to get away. I have two under 2 and it is very hectice at home at times. I go to school part time and work part time. I work out of need and to get away too and talk to other adults. I still feel perfectly comfortable here.

Also, while I have certain feelings about formula, CIO and other things, I do not expect everyone to think like I do. But I do get sick of having to make a disclaimer every time I vent my feelings. I do avoid formula unless it is ABSOLUTELY needed. I personally think it is gross, but I understand when there is a NEED for it. I would never expect others to feel the way I do and I get sick of other people on the "mainstream" feeling attacked for the way I personally feel about giving MY OWN KIDS formula. So I come here to vent to likeminded people. I do not feel any less ap for not practicing every single aspect of it, and I do not beleive the other ladies here would expect me to. I rarely visit as I have little time and alot of boards to visit. But I take what I can use from here and leave the rest.

Ginger


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by asherah_
*We are cool, Piglet68....I know I engage with you a lot in various threads, but it isn't because I have a problem with you personally or with what you say...I just think we are passionate.. and have a lot to say!*
Awesome!









I was gonna PM you and basically say the same thing, lol.


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## melixxa (May 20, 2003)

I personally would like to put in a good word for venting. I would also like to draw a distinction I see between venting and ranting. Ranting, as I see it, generally means unleashing a diatribe, possibly productive and possibly not, on some passionately embraced or particularly rancorous subject. Venting, on the other hand, is *by nature productive* in that we all need to let off steam at one time or another. Venting is letting off steam, getting something out that has built up inside and is blocking all the outlets, so that we can go on, so that we can put it behind us.

And that's a good thing, right??

Yes, sometimes I come here to vent, and I know a lot of other posters do, too. This is the source of those "You can't believe what I saw at Walmart today!" threads. I guess I'm just here to defend these types of exchanges. I think the fact that we have them here, and need sometimes to have them, is tied to the "defensiveness" that it has been pointed out is coloring some of this thread. The crux of it is that most of us, in the ways we parent, are out there on our own in real life. I know that I for one certainly can't call up my mom or even my sister and ask for sympathy or empathy because my baby kept us up all night and I'm dropping on my feet. "Why isn't he in his crib in his room??" they would ask. So I come here. Some days - when I'm not looking for information or ideas - I just need that bit of affirmation, that connection. I need to tell a story and have someone say, "I totally agree with you!" or "I see what you mean, but look at it this way...." I mean, it's just human nature that "we freaks," once we've found each other, will celebrate this fact by delineating just a little how we're different from "the others." But I don't think this line is carved in stone or even drawn in the sand. All I know is, it isn't in my head that I am doing things differently from most of the people outside my walls - what is so wrong about talking about the ways in which these differences manifest themselves, and how that makes me feel, and why I'm doing what I'm doing, and 'oh, do you believve that? i believe this'?

I don't even open the obvious venting threads on days when information rather than commiseration is at the top of my list. Other days, I look only at the vents. Because I'm in need of a good venting myself. And nothing else will do.

Wait, I just realized I am totally rambling (and possibly ranting!) here again. So sorry. I'm a bit sleep deprived, it's true. Allow me to sum up in the manner of a good high-school essay:

In short, please, friends, reconsider your knocking of the venting. I think it has its uses, though I completely agree that vent threads can run the risk of coming off as *exclusive* rather than inclusive, that people can get their feelings hurt (it is in the nature of the vent to be highly emotional and not completely thought out beforehand). I think this is unavoidable sometimes - because we all have unique views on everything, and unique ways in which we draw that line - but that's OK as long as our apology buttons are not broken and we use them wisely.

Bowing out to caffeinate ... I think this is the problem here ...


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## thinkingcapp (Jul 30, 2003)

You know, I've been mulling over this thread for the past few days...
I've been into it, then frustrated with it and now I think I'm beginning to get my head around it...
I think, for the most part, we can assume that most parents make decisions based on what they feel is best for their needs, circumstances and family. I think we can also assume, again in general, that parents make decisions that they feel are in the best interest of their child. How we decide those things are individual and personal based on a whole slew of factors (community, upbringing, etc.) When someone seemingly questions your judgement... it immediately would put people on the defensive as they believe to be making decisions in the best interest of their child. Perhaps that is why these 'types' of threads often get heated.

I must say I also agree that venting is a very valid thing to do.


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## chellemarie (Jan 17, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by pugmadmama_
*The thing is, you can only breastfeed, babywear and cloth diaper for so long. Then you've got over a decade of active parenting left. I think it's really important to let people know that you can adopt an AP lifestyle at any time during a child's life.

I formula fed my son, didn't co-sleep, didn't baby wear and used cloth diapers because he was allergic to disposables. But, as strange as this may sound, I've been an AP parent from the very start. I've always strived to treat my son with dignity and respect. I've never hit him, I rarely yell at him and we are very closely bonded.

If I'd not been "let in" by some AP Mamas, inspite of my "lousy" credentials in the baby years, then I might not have become the mother I am. As my son comes up on the teenage years, I think AP actually becomes more important. And so, in my opinion, "excluding" (intentionally or unintentionally) people because of what they did or didn't do in the first five years of parenting seems a bit hasty when there is such a need to spread the message of AP with older children.*
I think this is probably the most important point anyone has made in this thread and in past threads of a similar nature. It's rather simple to define "Attachment Parenting" when your child is still so dependent upon you for everything. As they grow, I feel the definition gets more and more vague. I believe the practices most people associate with AP are good and valuable and deserve consideration. However, those very tangible and visible things end very early on in our childrens' lives.

It's important to be mindful and careful and lay a sturdy foundation. But there's a lot more work when Mama starts moving from the center of baby's universe. It gets harder.

I may say things that either are or at least sound judgmental about the baby years stuff. However, I'm only really really angry at the parents of older children in my neighborhood who just aren't paying attention.

I know a very loving mother who couldn't breastfeed her sons. They are 10 and 16 and are just the most pleasant kids to be around. I know another mother who nursed all four of her children. Three of them are struggling to keep it together as adults. The fourth had a bunch of therapy and is getting better. That fourth one has a daughter who is taking great strides to break the cycle of abuse the breastfeeder kept going.

In general, this community would probably have been much more accepting of the latter because she did one thing "right".

We know what works for us as individuals. We can feel sad for someone that they won't know the joy we find in babywearing/co-sleeping/breastfeeding/diaper stalking. That doesn't mean we're better or happier. Share, put the information out there. But don't insist it work for everyone. I was doing this myself and have really cut myself off from some pretty neat women. That's the saddest thing of all.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by melixxa_
*I know that I for one certainly can't call up my mom or even my sister and ask for sympathy or empathy because my baby kept us up all night and I'm dropping on my feet. "Why isn't he in his crib in his room??" they would ask.*
This is *completely* OT, but I wanted to say that just because a baby is in his crib in his own room does NOT mean that he can/will not keep you up all night! I can attest to this fact from personal experience, LOL! So apparently what your mom and sister are really saying is "put him somewhere far away from you so you don't have to respond when he cries", which is worlds away from "put him in his own crib".

Why did I feel the need to say that?







I don't know! I guess I have spent one too many nights rocking my crib-sleeping boy in my arms at 3:00 AM to not respond, lol!


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## lunchbox (May 14, 2003)

Wow....I just wanted to second the notion of "being let in".

When I was pg with Lucy, I lurked on the AP forum on another site. I thought those folks were the biggest bunch of freaks. Same with LLL. After I had Lucy, those were the same people who gave me "permission" to follow my instincts and allow Lucy to sleep with us. When I thought I was strange because I didn't want to be away from her, they supported me and I didn't feel so alone. And they are the same people that support me when I get grief from my mom about the way I parent. Same with LLL. Now, I "get it", KWIM? And it just makes me want to shake my pg friends by the shoulders and show them the light. Sigh.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Ok I have been reading this whole thread and trying to stay out of the debate, but well here I am with my .02









Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*Ignorance is, literally, "not knowing". Too many women are never taught the TRUTH or the FACTS about babies and they get their parenting practices from the local doctor or what "everyone else" is doing.

AP parents, almost by definition, have to do research and make concious choices because, for most of us, that information is not readily available. Thus, whatever an AP parent does, is almost always done WITH KNOWLEDGE, and as a concious choice to do what is best for the baby. NOT what is most convenient for the parent. And that is why so many of us differ in our individual practices, and yet still come together under the auspices of AP.*
This is where I disagree. Sure some of the parents you would label as "mainstream" may choose their ways of parenting out of ignorance, but I think that is a pretty sweeping generalization. I don't think that parents who are not "AP" are parenting out of ignorance. I think they just have different values and needs than I do.

Let me see if I can clarify that.

Let's use the example of a parent who decides to use CIO to get their baby to sleep through the night.

Perhaps that parent has a stronger need for uninterrupted sleep than I do and values that over the baby's need to be close at night or wake up for night feedings. Maybe that parent values independence more than I do. Maybe they want they're child to be able to sooth themselves to sleep rather than to be parented to sleep.

I may not believe my child needs to be independent at night, but that doesn't mean another mother is ignorant for wanting that. And I bet you that mother could have read many "experts" that would back up her opinion, just as many of us have read plenty of "experts" who feel contrary.

Is she ignorantly making the choice to CIO? No. Do I agree with that choice? No because it doesn't mesh with my values and goals for _my_ family. Is she wrong and I am right, am I smart and she's ignorant? IMHO no, we just hold different beliefs and values.

I think that is what upsets me on the boards sometimes. It is the attitude that we are right and "they" are wrong. I don't think there is a right or wrong in parenting (of course that does not include blatant neglect or abuse). I think everyone has to do what's right for his or her family and it is of no benefit to point our fingers at people who parent differently and disparage them.

I have friends who are very AP, more so than me, and friends who would fall under the category of "mainstream," but all of those moms I see are making intelligent decisions for their family and raising their children with as much love as I raise mine.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:

I have friends who are very AP, more so than me, and friends who would fall under the category of "mainstream," but all of those moms I see are making intelligent decisions for their family and raising their children with as much love as I raise mine.



I agree.....so would alot of people here. Is that being disputed?


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by rainsmom_
*I agree.....so would alot of people here. Is that being disputed?*
I'm sorry, I should have been clearer. My point was that I have come to my conclusion that there is no right or wrong way to parent and that each family choose their path by what fits in with their values because I have friends who parent each so differently, but each with thought (not ignorance) and caring.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I would be willing to bet that most mamas who do CIO honestly do NOT know about studies that show the physiological effects (stress) of prolonged crying, or that babies cry for a legitimate reason and not to "manipulate". I cannot imagine a mother choosing CIO with full awareness of these facts. I think they hear the usual diatribe from society, read a few ferber-like books, and decide that whatever effect is has on baby is simply not significant enough to avoid doing it.

How many crib-sleeping mamas do you know who think that it is dangerous to sleep with your newborn (heck, it was all over the news a while back with that ridiculous "study" from the CRTC). How many think it is fostering dependence, that your child will "never want to leave", etc. It's one thing to try cosleeping, decide it doesnt' work, and crib-sleep. I honestly do not beleive that the majority of crib-using parents do that. They just think crib-sleeping is "it".

Sorry, but that's ignorant. The facts are out there. I don't see the majority of parents getting access to those facts unless they dig a little.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

I'm struggling with this concept of others who choose cio and other non-ap practices such as spanking or crib sleeping or formula feeding as being people who are "making intelligent decisions for their family" and that if we call this either ignorant or wrong, we're being judgemental. In fact, I struggle with the whole judgemental issue.

Now I dont dispute that many of these people are "and raising their children with as much love as I raise mine." Indeed, I have a friend who spanks her children because she 'loves them' and she truly believes that she is doing a better job of raising and disciplining her children than I am doing with mine. You can love someone but still make some very bad choices.

However, at the end of the day, I personally feel that I need to make judgements, not of people, but of practices. My judgement is that someone who _chooses_ to cio, or to spank, or to circumcise (sorry, I know that one is the most contentious, which is ironic imo) or to formula feed, is not making an 'intelligent' decision. They might not have searched to find the facts, or they might have found them but rejected them. But I cannot see how choosing to do any of these things is intelligent.

Like, its intelligent to refuse to feed your child the best possible nutrition. It's intelligent to leave him to cry because your need for sleep is greater than his physiological need for comfort. It's intelligent to mutilate his genitals. It's intelligent to hit him.

None of those, imo, are intelligent behaviours. And I dont see anythng morally wrong in being honest about something wrong, and calling it 'wrong'. That doesnt mean that we can't sympahtise with someones problems that lead them to make wrong choices, or support them in their quest for knowledge, or forgive them their mistakes. But I dont believe it is honest to fudge the issue and say it's judgemental to call a spade a spade, in the appropriate place of course. And to me, mdc should be that place.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Britishmum said:

That doesnt mean that we can't ....... forgive them their mistakes

Oh my







: ! I was with you until then!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Britishmum_
*I'm struggling with this concept of others who choose cio and other non-ap practices such as spanking or crib sleeping or formula feeding as being people who are "making intelligent decisions for their family" and that if we call this either ignorant or wrong, we're being judgemental. In fact, I struggle with the whole judgemental issue.

*
Justifying being judgmental seems like the oddest thing to me but I'll leave it at that.

All I feel like saying after reading some of the posts is that parenting choices are not made in a vacuum and the extent to which a person freely chooses a parenting practice varies greatly from family to family and situation to situation. It is important to remember that especially if you decide that it's okay to judge. Does anyone really think the choices we make are as simple as "to breastfeed/not to breastfeed" or "to spank/not to spank"? If so, may I say that I think you live a very fortunate life and really shouldn't judge because for most people the choices are not that simple.

To say that a person didn't make intelligent choices implies that you _know_ what their choice was about - that you know _all_ of the factors that went into it (some of which, I think are highly abstract and hard for even the individual to identity - like whether or not you were inundated with "bottle images" growing up creating a subconscious attraction to bottle feeding)

I can tell you that my parenting choices usually involve much different issues than another person even if we end up choosing the same "practice". I can only wonder what I would have "chosen" if any of my "AP" practices were challenging for our family. I know that many parents struggle and up hill battle for the choices they feel are best for their family but I think that those of us who came "naturally" and easily by our choices it's very hard to judge others choices.

Maybe those of you who pumped in the ICU for a month, followed by painful nursing, mastitis, thrush, combined with a lack of support and a whole host of other things I've actually heard of people overcoming in order to continue to nurse can feel justified in judging others who don't make the same "choice". I certainly can not. And, I wager a guess that most women who have overcome challenges in breastfeeding wouldn't call another women's decision to give up "ignorant" or "unintelligent".

Jeez, I mean sometimes it's not even about what you choose. Sometimes it's about what's left when a family factors in all that they have.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by IdentityCrisisMama_
*To say that a person didn't make intelligent choices implies that you know what their choice was about - that you know all of the factors that went into it (some of which, I think are highly abstract and hard for even the individual to identity - like whether or not you were inundated with "bottle images" growing up creating a subconscious attraction to bottle feeding)*
I completely agree with this. It's impossible and arrogant to assume we can know any one person's thinking or reasoning behind their decisions, or the lifetime of experiences unique to them that led to that decision. Nor do I believe in judging people for their choices.

I just want to clarify that my post above refers to a perceived majority of cases. I cannot draw any conclusions about an individual. I think the crib-sleeping rates and formula feeding rates in this country speak volumes - they tell me that most of these decisions were NOT made with the baby's best interests at heart, or with full knowledge of the potential harm/consequences. Exactly who those women are well....there's no way to no, and I can't see how any possible good could come of trying to finger them as individuals. Address the issue on a societal/mass educational level.

And btw, I use the word "ignorant" in it's literal meaning. It is not an insult. I myself am ignorant in many areas. I get the feeling some people here are taking it as some sort of insult directed at "other mothers". I just want to clarify that that is not what I'm doing.


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

ig·no·rant
adj.
1) Lacking education or knowledge.
2) Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake.
*3) Unaware or uninformed.*

And I have to say... doing what's right for ME leads me to make decisions that aren't always best for my husband or my children. Maybe formula feeding is right for me because I want to be able to leave at the drop of a hat and I'm creeped out by nuturing my babies with my breasts. Well, that decision is right for me but it's not right for the baby. That's just a hypothetical scenario.

Maybe what AP is all about it making the best decisions for US. Sometimes I have to go with what's best for them though and just sacrifice a bit. That's part of motherhood!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Piglet, I know how you were using the word ignorant. I just couldn't help but go, "woah", when I read you said, "I think that most of them are just IGNORANT" referring to mainstream parents.









I'm not sure if I'm one of those lucky few that doesn't have a tremendously negative view of "mainstream" or not but I don't get the feeling that they are predominantly ignorant about the basic health/emotional needs of infants.

Besides, I would say that lack of knowledge about breastfeeding being the healthiest choice for an infant is not the biggest problem with the FF rates in the US. I'm nearly certain that the vast majority of "mainstream" parents have been given that information at least once. But, I guess that is very OT. I would say that, like with choices, there is much more that goes into it than that.

Like I said, I don't think the decisions people make are as simple as some of you seem suggest. That's all I was trying to say.

Also, when you are talking about individual decisions, it gets confusing to me. I have made several choices that did not "have my baby's best interest at heart". I have also made some choices being fully aware that "I didn't have full knowledge of the potential harm/consequences" but I am overall a "very good AP" mom. LOL.

I think we all know that individual choices also need to be looked in the context of the whole parenting package. While, I totally disagree that the "only thing that matters is the child reaching successful adulthood" attitude (for many, many reasons)







:

I do believe that the individual choices are not in the least bit helpful when looking at how positively a person parents. (Someone gave a great example earlier)

Sometimes I think this thread is mostly people arguing but they really agree and other times I get the feeling there are some fundamental differences between how some of us think about "other" parents.

I would have to totally agree that it is maybe a regional thing. I guess I can't relate well to how devastating "mainstream" ideas are because I don't know any "mainstream" parents who aren't doing wonderful things for their kids. Apparently, I am not "mainstream" (according to DH and some other family and friends) but I feel very mainstream. I guess I'm just surrounded by a bunch of you "AP" freaks and totally cool "mainstream" mamas.









Fast forward to the political and sociological issues and I'm right on with you radical mamas. I guess that I don't really separate "us" when I think of the politics. Somehow I feel like almost all of us are mainstream in the way that we are affected by the parenting politics in our communities.

But, I'm stopping now because I don't even make sense to myself&#8230;


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Lab, if you see what I said in the whole context:

"That doesnt mean that we can't sympahtise with someones problems that lead them to make wrong choices, or support them in their quest for knowledge, or forgive them their mistakes."

I'll try to qualify what I meant. I realise that it sounds odd, especially taken out of context of what I was trying to say (obviously not well!) I"ll try to be clearer by using an example.

I have a friend who circumcise all her sons. (In fact, I have several friends who do this). I think that they are terribly, terribly wrong to do so. It upsets me greatly. One of them is expecting another baby and I pray that it wont be another boy because of this very issue, although I know she wants a boy. However, I am friends with her because of many other things that are bigger than this issue. Applying this to what I said:

I sympathise with the pressures that make her believe that she needs to do this to her sons.
I support her in her quest for knowledge
And yes, I forgive her her mistake.

If I didnt forgive, I wouldnt be able to be friends with her. OF course, the fact it's a mistake is my opinion, not hers. Is it my place to forgive her for what she did to her babies? Maybe not. It's up to her sons in the future to do that. Maybe 'overlook' would be a better word than 'forgive'. But personally, for me, there has to be an element of forgiveness, or I couldnt continue being friends with someone who did this to their child. I had to find it in my heart to forgive her.

However I look at it, I cannot see that I am being judgemental to see that mutilating her beautiful baby boys was morally wrong. Or that spanking them is morally wrong. In order to be her friend, I have to find it in my heart to forgive her these things. I can't just ignore them, so I choose to forgive them.

Which leads me on to Identitycrisismama,







who thnks that by asking the basic question, Is it judgemental to see a behaviour that is morally wrong and judge it to be it as morally wrong as being "Justifying being judgmental"







As I said, I struggle with the idea of it being judgemental simply to have strong moral values about behaviours. IMO that is not judgemental.

If you separate the behaviour from the person, you can judge the behaviour. Can't you? So, why is it judgemental to judge a behaviour to be wrong? How otherwise to we make moral judgements, how would our judicial system work, for example, if we didnt have to ultimately separate good from evil, right from wrong?

As I said, I struggle with this idea of it being judgemental to call a behaviour wrong. I can understand why people do things, but I cannot call somethng an intelligent behavoiur if it is a behavoiur born from either ignorance of selfishness and is unintelligent in its very nature.

I'm sure I've not made myslef any clearer, so


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

I get what your saying Britishmom.......if you were judgemental, you wouldnt be her friend....


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Britishmum, I do think that you are justifying being judgmental by saying that you don't personally see anything wrong with it because to be judgmental is to simply have a moral opinion. To use the word the way you explained makes me judgmental also. It's just that I have rarely used the word being used that way outside of MDC where the "tone" of the word judgmental seems to be debated frequently.

All I can say is that I have a different way of using the word. I have always thought of the work judgmental to have a more negative tone as if a person can not separate their judgment to see a larger picture or maybe like a person can't separate their moral feelings from excessive anger, when the person exaggerates the impact of the immoral act or when the person can't think clearly about the other issues surrounding the person who acted immorally.

I am not, not, not saying that this is how you are, Britishmum (or anyone else here)! I'm just saying that I feel like there is some agreed upon thing (everywhere except MDC) where the word judgmental is a negative thing. But, obviously, I could be wrong.

How does one reconcile having strong moral or political feelings about things and not be judgmental in the negative sense? I don't know. I can say that I don't think I've ever had a big problem doing so and partially because of the two main points I was trying to make in my posts. 1st "choices" are a tricky thing. We can never really know all the factors that go into a person choices. And, 2nd individual choices even if separated from influences and circumstances are just small factors that make up a person's parenting.

I would like to ask about when a person feels like they need to justify some parenting choice. If they successfully justify a bad parenting choice (to the person making the moral judgment), do you think that that makes the choice a better choice?


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"to be judgmental is to simply have a moral opinion",

That's not what I"m saying. I'm saying that it is possible to judge a behaviour to be wrong without being judgemental about the person.

I think that the word 'judgemental' is indeed seen as a bad thing, which it should be. However, someoen is often seen as being judgemental when in fact all they are doing is being clear about a behaviour being right or wrong. That imo is not judgemental. It is having clear moral beliefs.

I think that the edges are often blurred, especially at places like mdc where we are all generally anxious to be the most PC that we can be (I use the term PC because I can't think of a better term, I mean it as a positive trait). We want to be free of -isms, we want to change the world and its thinking. Therefore we cannot bear to be known or thought of as judgemental. We must dot every I and cross every T in our endeavours to be broad-minded. That sometimes leads to us fearing being judgemental, when maybe we should come out and speak more clearly. After all, it is the wellbeing of our most vulnerable citizens that is often compromised or even damaged by the practices that as AP parents we mostly reject.

These children cannot speak for themselves. That's why thousands of American little boys are circumcised every day (dont know the figure, I'm sure someone could supply it







) I for one do not fear being labelled as 'judgemental' if I call circumcision what it is. Now, dont get me wrong, I dont do so to friends or where it is inappropriate or ineffective to speak out - heck, I"m British, and politeness and tact are my middle names by default LOL).

But yes, when I was at a hospital tour and the nurse spoke about the 'room where we do the circumcisions" I spoke out, loud and clear. Was I judgemental of those parents who wanted to know where the room was where the operation would be performed on their sons? I don't know. Was I judgemental of the nurse who advised them that if the father was circumcised, the son should be because of locker room teasing? Was it wrong for me to make those parents feel judged for what they were doing? Or was it right for me to speak out for what is right and for their unprotected children?

Where do we draw lines? What is speaking out for right, and what is judgemental? In this instance, I was not judging the parents or the nurse, but the practice. And if being seen as judgemental is a price I had to pay for speaking out against wrong, then so be it. (Incidentally, I am not a brave person and to speak out took courage for me, so please dont get the idea that I am one of those 'blunt' people who just says what she thinks)

That's where I think the word 'judgemental' is thrown around too easily and we can fear it and so avoid doing what is right.

Clear as mud?!!


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

In praise of being judgmental...

I've been popping in and out of this thread and I had some general responses to a few things, starting with the idea of being judgmental.

First of all, of course we're judgmental. Being judgmental is good. Being judgmental means that we are using one of the greatest capacities of the human mind, the capacity that is distinct from those held by most (or maybe even every) other animal: the capacity to reason and choose from among competing possibilities.

Folks, this is no big surprise or insight, but making a choice necessarily means making many non-choices: for every door you walk through, you choose not to walk through several others. The "judgment" involved means that you're choosing the option that you believe, based on your data, to be the very wisest, very best choice. Of course it is -- or you would choose something else!

Personally, I'm a very judgmental person; I can't help it. I think chocolate is better than vanilla, that Mother Teresa is better than Charles Manson, that AP is better than CIO, and breastfeeding beats the diapers off of formula darn near every single time. I made these choices because of my judgment.

Other people will have different data and will make different choices, and I'm free to think they're reasonable (if different) or just plain dumb, or somewhere in between. Hey, for the parent who formula-feeds because she has some condition or issue that makes it effectively impossible, unhealthy, or unwise to breastfeed, that makes sense! For the parent who formula-feeds because they think breastfeeding is somehow icky, well, I think that's ridiculous and I disagree with that opinion.

Okay. What's the matter with that? I'm not trying to sound antagonistic here, but really -- why is it right to refrain from judging people's decisions? To me, speaking for myself, this is about as impossible as suspending my ability to think -- I just can't help BUT make a judgment about darn near everything. And really, though many people's different decisions may be worthy of respect and certainly are worthy of being given the benefit of the doubt, the bottom line is that you can't agree with or respect *every single* point of view. The best we can do is make our decisions for what we hope and pray are the right reasons.

As far as CIO versus AP, initially, I was going to CIO and not co-sleep, maybe breastfeed for a few months, and spank.







Hey, that's what my mom did, and since I didn't know the right way to do anything, I initially followed the closest example I had. After reading Dr. Sears, though, I started to read more about cosleeping (which I'd never even heard of!) and it just simply sounded right to me. We still do it! Breastfeeding also became "permitted" when I found out that no, other people *don't* always stop at 3-4 months, and the same with babywearing. Mostly, this was a matter of widening my own data pool and finding out different possibilities. However, I'd say that my initial standpoint was a reasonable one *given the data that I had.* I suspect many CIO parents do the same thing: they do what they believe to be the right thing to do. FWIW, I disagree -- but then again, I'm judgmental.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Well said!


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Charles Baudelaire ~


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I am often in a place where I have to describe the subtle undertones of an English (US) word. I believe that the word judgmental has a negative undertone. If some of you don't have the same experience with that word or deliberately decide to take the word very literally, that's fine with me but it doesn't make sense for us to continue talking as if it is the same word.

I have a question, if a non-native Engish speaker were to ask you to help her/him understand how the word 'judgmental' is understood in the US, what would you say? Would tell them it is a synonym for opinionated? Would you say that a person who has strong preferences for a particular food is judgmental?

I'm feeling like the word judgmental (for me!) is more about not thinking about the individual circumstances with compassion before deciding if you agree with the action. Yea, that's what I think of it as.

I know there has been quite a bit of "I'm not participating in this thread" stuff going on here and I'm starting to understand why. It is not interesting to me to play with words in this way (well actually, it is, but not when I'm trying make a point).

But, I can't resist&#8230;I think you're all judgmental (but in the nice way that Charles Baudelaire uses the word.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

BTW, Britishmum, I'm a person who is extremely frustrated by the whole "PC" thing. I agree with what you said about it but (for me) not being judgmental has very little to do with being "PC".

Also, sorry, I apparently misinterpreted your paragraph about struggling with being judgmental. AND, I am slightly on the fence about your example about circumcision. For me, circumcision is in a different category from the other examples given like CIO, Breastfeeding and corporal punishment. I'm not sure why but it is different for me.

And, CB, I wasn't trying to disagree with anything that you said other than your word choice. I just think the word "opinionated" fit better where you used the word "judgmental".


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Am I the only one who is thoroughly enjoying this thread?









ICM, britishmum, charles b....so many wonderfully written posts!

Good point about "what is judgemental". I have to say that I tend to think of it as a negative. As confusing the person with the action. But then can we be judgemental about an "action" and separate that from the person? I believe so.

example: I am so passionate about breastfeeding that I basically went into hospital with the attitude "you are feeding that garbage to my baby over my dead body" (life threatening situations notwithstanding, of course) as I felt that gave me the strength and determination I might need to counter the Supplement Police (I tend to buckle under in confrontational situations). How can I possibly convey that and then not come across as judgemental about those who FF even though I would *never* dare to comment to some poor mama about her choices? I struggle with this: I think formula is crappy, substandard, processed food on the level of McDonald's-with-added-vitamins (there! I said it!)....yet my heart goes out to mamas who can't BF - how does hearing my rant make them feel? Pretty crappy I would guess. Does it make me judgemental? I don't know...

My dearest friend...a sensitive, selfless, caring friend you'd love to have in your life. A mother completely besotted with her girls, and determined to give them the best in life. A mother who did CIO when they were only weeks old, and spanks them with a wooden spoon when they are naughty. I completely 100% disagree with those things, I think she is wrong to do that. But I also know that she comes from a place that I have no experience with (abusive childhood that makes her kind of spanking pale in comparison; and a very tough life with no support). I don't think any less of her as a person or a mother. I love her dearly. And yet, here on these boards you will hear me rant and rave about spanking and CIO...

...am I judgemental?


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Im loving this conversation!!

I think what gives the word Judgemental a negative feeling (for me) is that its sometimes linked to the word "PRE-judgemental"..or prejudice...when you make judgements about some thing/someone before you you know all the facts. But arent we just wired that way, to make judgements on everything we see based on our beliefs?

But IRL, we dont make our judgements known......its just this running dialogue going thru our heads.........that sometimes later, when we know all the facts, we are kind of ashamed about. Maybe Im just speaking for myself. I dont go up to anyone, stranger or friend, if I were to see someone spank with a wooden spoon or FF, and tell them what I think about it. But we do it here because its safe,we are faceless, and its the perfect and only opportunity to do so.

ITA with Charles, Piglet and Britishmums posts.......just adding another spin I guess....


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I don't think it is natural to be judgmental and even if it were I think it is something to be overcome.

To me, there is a big difference between "judging" something as right or wrong and activism. I was blessed with meeting some major activists for the welfare of families and I must say that they were among the least judgmental people I've ever met.


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

ICM - I totally agreed with what you had to say - thanks for expressing my own thoughts so much more clearly than I seem to be able to!









That said, what everyone else (Piglet, Britishmum, etc) said also resonates with me.

I think I feel this more deeply at the moment, because I've just finished having a long drawn-out e-mail exchange with my best friend (who is very 'mainstream' - her own definition, not mine!) about whether or not I am judgemental about the choices she makes as a mom.

If we are judgemental about a parenting practice and express that judgement, other parents who parent that way are going to feel judged - whether or not we mean to be judgemental.

So, in the past, when I've said that it's important to me not to give my children formula (or if I've even made passing comments that indicate my unwillingness to give formula), my friend, who supplements with formula from early on and weans to formula around 10-11 months, has felt judged. Even though I don't feel that I AM judging her decisions - I'm just stating/doing what is important to me.

I think this is what tends to happen when people first come to MDC - and this is the reason for posts like the OP.

And it's one of the reasons why I think that it's worth re-reading some of the things we write before we hit 'submit reply' - why use words which can easily give offense when a bit of re-wording just might 1) make our meaning more clear and 2) prevent offending someone who is sensitive about a certain subject?

I do think that some people will come here and be offended no matter what we say. But there are others who are 'on the fence' so to speak, and a 'softly, softly' approach just might convince them to stick around, learn and change (I personally have changed a LOT in my 2+ years at MDC!).

A bit off-topic, but - ICM, I totally agree with you about circumcision being different from other parenting choices.

With circumcision, I cannot think of a single mitigating circumstance that gives one person the right to cut off a healthy, functioning part of another (non-consenting) person's body. Leaving a son intact IN NO WAY impacts upon the parents' way of life (perhaps religious circumcision is an exception, although it still seems to me that it is unfair for one person to impose their religious beliefs on another, unconsenting individual in such an irreversable, damaging way).

All of the other parenting choices we make? These do require big changes/sacrifices on the part of the parent. They all impact greatly on the parent's life - so I can see that, when the needs of the parent are taken into consideration, there might be situations in which, on balance, the greater good for the FAMILY as a whole might involve not co-sleeping, not breast-feeding, etc.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by rainsmom_
*
But IRL, we dont make our judgements known......its just this running dialogue going thru our heads.........that sometimes later, when we know all the facts, we are kind of ashamed about. Maybe Im just speaking for myself. I dont go up to anyone, stranger or friend, if I were to see someone spank with a wooden spoon or FF, and tell them what I think about it. But we do it here because its safe,we are faceless, and its the perfect and only opportunity to do so.*
I say many many things here which come accross as inflamatory and/or judgemental, but I make it a point not to say things here that I wouldn't be comfortable saying irl. Maybe that's just me; I know that lots of people think of the internet as a safe haven, and MDC in particular as a safe place to speak their minds, but I don't say things here if there's ever a chance that they might come back to bite me in the a$$. I'm sure that I've posted things and changed my mind about them later (I can't think of an example right now, but I'm sure there are a few) but nothing that I wouldn't say to real people. If it's not reasonable for me to say it to someone in real life, I don't feel that it's reasonable for me to say it here.

And please, please, for crying out loud, don't get me started on circumcision. Isn't there a forum for that?


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"If it's not reasonable for me to say it to someone in real life, I don't feel that it's reasonable for me to say it here."

Hmm, I'm not sure that I agree. Taking a lesser example than circumcision, IRL I'd never say that I consider formula to be gross within the hearing of friends or acquaitances who formula feed. To be honest, I cringe when I see them bring on the formula, but I"m poilte and have _never_ opened my mouth. (Ironically, they have about my breastfeeding, but there you go......)

However, here I believe that I have a general concensus of the vast majority of posters regarding the grossness of formula and the dispicable way that it is marketed to women in this culture. That doesnt mean that I"m rude about it even on the boards (I tend to be careful what I say in general, here as in real life) but there _is_ a common understanding here ime about such things. It's rather like if I"m with my AP group, I am going to be open about cosleeping and what I think of CIO. If I"m with mainstream friends, unless the subject is open for discussion, I keep quiet. In fact, I believe that I keep quiet too often and that's something I'm working on.

I take comments about my AP practices from a friend's husband that are presented as 'jokes' (unfunny though) and find it hard to respond. It is easier to be honest and tactful in print, so if he were here on the boards I'd tackle him far better. Face to face, its often easier to smile, fume inwardly, and keep quiet. Not something I"m particularly proud of. So, maybe I should be more outspoken irl, not less!

With a more serious subject than formula, imo, such as circumcision and spanking, I am more outspoken because I believe passionately that I have a moral duty to express something on behalf of the child. If I don't advocate for children's rights, how can I expect others to? And how can I look my children in the eye? That doesn't mean being rude, and like Piglet, I have a friend who spanks in spite of what I think. She does know what I think, and now at least tones it down when I"m there and doesnt spank in front of my children. I also told her my opinion of circumcision, very politely, but nothing I say would ever change her mind, and although it saddens me greatly, I see the formula feeding, circumcision and the spankng totally in the context of her upbringing and her inability to question the teaching of her church and her father (a minister).

Which is where I believe there is a difference between 'judgemental' in a negative sense and in a factual sense. I understand that her puritanical upbringing leads her to believe that breastfeeding is unnatural and gross. And that it is her duty to hit her children 'in love'. And that the circumcisions are 'biblically necessary.' In her father's church, that is what is taught, along with cio and a lot of other sad stuff. So, I judge her actions to be very wrong, but I understand why her upbringing has created the parent that she is. But in all conscience, when I am in a position of keeping quiet or of speaking out for her chidlren, I must speak out. I believe it is possible to do so without being judgemental in a negative sense.

I too am greatly enjoying this conversation.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Britishmum_
*"If it's not reasonable for me to say it to someone in real life, I don't feel that it's reasonable for me to say it here."

Hmm, I'm not sure that I agree. Taking a lesser example than circumcision, IRL I'd never say that I consider formula to be gross within the hearing of friends or acquaitances who formula feed. To be honest, I cringe when I see them bring on the formula, but I"m poilte and have never opened my mouth. (Ironically, they have about my breastfeeding, but there you go......)*
I feel that because (in many ways) I agree with the general concensus here, there's no need for me to go on a huge rant about the way that artificial breastmilk is marketed, etc: it's preaching to the choir. In real life, most people haven't done the research and haven't given any more thought to it than what the pharmaceutical companies have told them: "It's a lifestyle choice." Much like your stance on circumcision, I feel that I am obligated to disseminate the information that I have come across, and to guide people toward an informed conclusion. Not out of moral outrage, really.. it's just that I have the information, and I don't believe that I should hoard it.

IRL, I don't have a problem with confrontation, but when I discuss my parenting practices it rarely devolves into a confrontation. I'm perfectly open about the fact that we co-sleep, that Eli is still nursing despite being over a year old and the fact that I'm pregnant, that I plan to give birth in a hospital but I don't think that's a great choice for everyone, etc, etc, and so forth. When my future SIL told me that for her very first birth she's going in looking for drugs, I had to question it. She's never felt the pain of labor, has no idea what it will be like. I can't understand wanting to go into your very first labor planning to have an epidural; it's just not logical to me. If she does some research, listens to the points I make as well as others, and still concludes that she wants one that's fine, but I'm not just going to listen to her talk and nod and smile politely. That's just not me.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Quote:

I struggle with this: I think formula is crappy, substandard, processed food on the level of McDonald's-with-added-vitamins (there! I said it!)....yet my heart goes out to mamas who can't BF - how does hearing my rant make them feel? Pretty crappy I would guess.
Yep. Like rubbing it in with salt.

Quote:

Hmm, I'm not sure that I agree. Taking a lesser example than circumcision, IRL I'd never say that I consider formula to be gross within the hearing of friends or acquaitances who formula feed. To be honest, I cringe when I see them bring on the formula, but I"m poilte and have never opened my mouth.
And why is it okay for me to get to read here that you think formula is gross? I'd venture a guess that the vast majority of ff-ing mums on this board have read the research, & make a necessary choice when the feel they have to.......... I'm not going to make any sense..... too emotional now.... shouldn't have opened this thread again....... online stuff does hurt sometimes, & I think that might just get back to the OP's point.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

"Is she ignorantly making the choice to CIO? No. Do I agree with that choice? No because it doesn't mesh with my values and goals for my family. Is she wrong and I am right, am I smart and she's ignorant? IMHO no, we just hold different beliefs and values.

I think that is what upsets me on the boards sometimes. It is the attitude that we are right and "they" are wrong. I don't think there is a right or wrong in parenting (of course that does not include blatant neglect or abuse). I think everyone has to do what's right for his or her family and it is of no benefit to point our fingers at people who parent differently and disparage them."

Well I DO think there is a right and wrong in parenting. CIO IS neglect and abuse in my book as is circumcising, spanking and choosing not to breastfeed. I have gone through much more than most other people in regards to breastfeeding. I didn't bf my son due to lack of education about bfing after reduction and safe meds for bipolar. I never tried to pretend that formula was some great food. It was satisfactory nutrition and I got him off it as soon as I could, fed him only organic foods and no sugar to counteract (oh and never switched him to that crappy follow up stuff that has corn syrup). I also bottle-nursed (held him every feeding, on demand and letting him self-wean - he still takes a bottle before nap and bed). I still feel crappy about it though. With my daughter I have been through hell and back to make it work but I did it. And yes I do feel "judgemental" when I hear of some of the reasons people (even people on here) say they can't nurse. When I hear someone say they couldnt nurse because they didn't make enough milk I feel like that is NOT a valid excuse because I only made 70-75% supply even with galactogogues but I use a lact-aid at the breast so my daughter could still breastfeed. If I can struggle through all that why cant others? Aren't all our children worth it?

On to the issue of people choosing to formula feed, well I think that is abuse in the fact that is substandard feeding and why would you purposely CHOOSE not to give your child the best? That is neglect IMO and incredibly selfish. I do think CIO is abuse, totally 100%. Spanking too, if you can get arrested for hitting another adult (assault they call it) then why is it no assault just because they are younger. Is there some magical age I don't know about where they all of a sudden become human? Circumcizing - well that seems pretty obvious to me, no one has the right to have another human beings genitals mutilated. There are some issues that I am not so cut and dry about but these ones I am. Co-sleeping? Well I don't do it and don't want to. I have been a diagnosed insomniac for 17 years. I cannot sleep with anyone near me. But my children have always been responded to immediately so IMO that is not abuse. Vaccinating? Well I'd never do it but this is not a clear cut issue because there are differing arguments. I cloth diaper but I don't think disposable diapering is abusive. I do think it isn't the best choice because it messes up our environment plus all the trees cut down plus the chemicals in them and not knowing what the long term effects are. Baby wearing? hmm well I have to admit I absolutely hate seeing babies in bucket carriers and strollers. I think that children should be close to their parents. I just can't get over the vacant stares I see in most children's eyes when they are in a stroller. I've also noticed that while I am babywearing my children we converse and discuss the world around us but the people I've seen who shop with kids in stroller rarely even talk to them. This is not every person but the majority IMO. And those bucket carriers drive me insane. They are only allowed to be in them to 20 lbs. You (general you) honestly don't think that it is better for a baby that small to be carried and close to their parents. What possible reason could you have to leave them in one with the excpetion that they are fast asleep?

Yes I know I sound incredibly judgemental and I admit I am. I don't think its wrong though. I feel very strongly about these issues and like I said IMO these are not just choices, not our right to decide these things for another human being. If you view all these issues as choices, whatever works for you issues, then yes you won't get what I'm saying. But if you seriously do think it is very detrimental to children to be formula fed, left to CIO, spanked, circumcized, etc then you can't just sit quietly and say "whatever works for you."


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Quote:

On to the issue of people choosing to formula feed, well I think that is abuse in the fact that is substandard feeding and why would you purposely CHOOSE not to give your child the best? That is neglect IMO and incredibly selfish.
And here is your example Piglet. Apparently I am an abusive mother for giving my littlies formula after going thru FTT & all that other crap..... I guess I just didn't try hard enough. Bad mummy.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

aussiemum, I think she's talking about people who regard ff vs. bf as a lifestyle choice. Not about people who HAD to use formula.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Heavenly_
*...Co-sleeping? Well I don't do it and don't want to. I have been a diagnosed insomniac for 17 years. I cannot sleep with anyone near me. But my children have always been responded to immediately so IMO that is not abuse. ...*
Well, of course it's not abuse, *you* do it, so it can't be abuse, right?

How would you feel if I told you I think your "excuses" for not breastfeeing your first son and for not co-sleeping were crap and that I think you have been/are being abusive by making the choices you've made? Would you listen to me? Would your heart and mind be open to making changes? Or would you shut me out and ignore me?

It never ceases to amaze me how people who are so careful to treat children with politeness and respect are so ready to treat other adults like with rudeness and contempt _as if that were going work in changing the other adults attitude/behavior_.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

fwiw, i think the entire ff v. bf portion of this thread should be taken to the breastfeeding board. just my opinion.

Quote:

Well, of course it's not abuse, you do it, so it can't be abuse, right?
i think Heavenly was trying to get across that she responds to her children, so it's different than simply leaving the kids alone to CIO.

there is a big difference between someone who doesn't bedshare and doesn't respond to their kids, and someone who doesn't bedshare but is 100% responsive to all of their kids needs, all of the time.

** now, stepping away from the thread, because everyone's pretty riled up...


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

It's really strange.

I *knew* what was best for my kids and my family. I tried to stick to my convictions 100%, and when something didn't work for me, I knew I wasn't choosing the highest choice. I willingly admit that. I'm not defensive about it at all.

Like, with both kids, I got so desperate (a combination of pretty bad PPD, combined with bipolar disorder, serious lack of sleep, etc. etc.) that I tried modified cry-it-outs with both of them. Of course, it failed miserably; of course, I felt like a piece of crap for psychologically abusing them; of course, I am sitting here now admitting it was not the best thing to do.

It's strange to me when people don't just say "Yeah, I didn't get it right. I hope I'm [stronger, wiser, healthier, insert word of choice here] to get it right next time."

But that's me, and how I judge MYSELF. I judge myself FAR more harshly than I've ever judged anyone else


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

I managed to produce enough milk to keep them alive. Not growing, but just alive. I did not use SNS or any other sort of device other than a hand held pump. I basically had them on the breast continuously, other than to shower or drive the car, & it wasn't enough. So i supplemented & they weaned from the breast at 6 months. They just weren't interested anymore......both of them, both times. It still kills me, every day...... i normally avoid any sort of thread that looks like it might be about breastfeeding v. formula feeding, this one just caught me by surprise.....

so, by certain standards I have failed. I try so hard not to give a sh*t what other people think, but this particular topic is one that really deeply affected me...... more so than any sort of diapering issues, or vax, or circ, or where they sleep, or whatever. And you know the really demented thing, mostly I think I feel sad because I feel like I somehow missed out. Not so much for the kids, but for me..... it's so selfish that in the end it's about me, but it's true. I wanted to be able to extended b-feed my kids..... that was the most important thing to me before I had kids, above all else, & it is the one thing I have not been able to do. So I try & take it as a lesson for life....... & the experience has made me less judgemental, no doubt about it. Not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, just less quick to assume.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by klothos_
*fwiw, i think the entire ff v. bf portion of this thread should be taken to the breastfeeding board. just my opinion....*
I formula fed my child, I'm not going to a board entitled "breastfeeding".

Quote:

_Originally posted by klothos_
*...i think Heavenly was trying to get across that she responds to her children, so it's different than simply leaving the kids alone to CIO...*
I was trying to point out to Heavenly that maybe, just maybe, other people have reasons _just as valid as hers_ for their parenting choices. It's very easy to say "my choices were good ones but those people over there, they are being abusive." It's a lot harder to put yourself into someone elses shoes than it is to just cast judgement.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"And why is it okay for me to get to read here that you think formula is gross?"

Aussiemum, I sincererly apologise if I hurt your feelings. I said what I did in the context of what has been mentioned on this thread many times, that if someone truly cannot breastfeed for whatever reason,. there is nothing at all wrong with formula, In fact, its' a marvellous thing.

In fact, I dont go talking about my feelings about formula here iether, unless it is pertinent to a discussion, as someone else said, that's preaching to the choir.

In a way this illustrates the point, that here on mdc we mostly share certain values. It is not practical or realistic to expect every post to come with a footnote of something like "Of course, I am not talking of anyone with a medical reason blah blah for having to formula feed." And if someone doesn't hold at least a basis of some of these basic AP values, they are not going to feel at home on an AP board.

If someone chooses to formula feed, and doenst want to hear in discussions that people believe that it is substandard nutrition, they need to inhabit mainstream boards not mdc. That was my point, and I believe the point that many have made here on this thread.

I really dont see that the subjects of aspects of AP need to be taken to their separate forums. Someone earlier said this about circumcision. Now about breastfeeding. But that is what this discussion is about, aspects of AP. Of course we can go share our opinions on circumcision on that forum and breastfeeding on its forum, but there would be no discussion left here then, would there?









As for getting riled up, I'm certainly not remotely riled by this thread. I think it is stimulating and challenging and I'm enjoying it. I love to talk about this stuff with people who have actually thought about it.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Giant hugs aussiemom! I've been there, I still am there, and my daughter is 4. My daughter started to jaundice (from dehydration) three days after her birth, she then began to pass dehydration crystals in her diaper on day 4. I too had to then formula feed and it pretty much killed me.

And I would venture to guess that I have been a breastfeeding advocate much longer than the other mamas on this board since I was breastfed and grew up listening to my mother speak of the wonders of it....

But to hear that my daughter's first foods, the ones that nourished her precious newborn body, are comparable to McDonald's....was it necessary to say that? Aren't the women on this board already convinced that breastfeeding is best, is it necessary to make a statement like that which just makes us feel even more like sh*t?

And for those that assume formula feeding is mainstream, I would venture to guess that you have never opened a package of formula which has literature stating, "breastfeeding is best for your baby's health. If you must use formula, please consult your doctor...." You'll never know what it's like to torture yourself by reading that pamphlet everytime you open a can of formula. Lucky you.

Isn't it possible to make the choices you feel are best without disparaging the other options? I HAVE to believe that formula is fine, I don't have a choice. Maybe one day your body will fail you in some way and you'll know what I'm talking about.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

it's okay, britishmum, I'm just in need of some therapy on this particular topic.







:

But since you are enjoying the debate, I'll pose this question to you:

Quote:

If someone chooses to formula feed, and doesnt want to hear in discussions that people believe that it is substandard nutrition, they need to inhabit mainstream boards not mdc.
If someone chooses to FF because they _have_ to (& I think everyone's got their own definition of 'have' to) why should they have reinforced in their heads over & over again how poor a substitute cow's milk/formula is? My point is that many of the mamas here already know that- how could you miss it?!?!?

And I don't wanna go to a mainstream board!! They're boring & I'm so not mainstream I wouldn't last more than a post or two anyway before getting kicked off!


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Love Beads- you & I are speaking the same language. Thank you. And a great big







to you too!


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Quote:

And for those that assume formula feeding is mainstream, I would venture to guess that you have never opened a package of formula which has literature stating, "breastfeeding is best for your baby's health. If you must use formula, please consult your doctor...."
Actually, all the moms IRL that I know - including everyone in my family - who chose to formula feed scoffed at anyone or anything trying to tell them that "breast is best". Of course, they would never come to a place like MDC, either. It's a place for those whacko hippie moms







:

I understand that most moms, like yourself, who come to MDC tried to breastfeed. I don't think anyone here is talking about women who tried and didn't succeed. Hugs to you mamas, that must be really rough. It could've happened to me, and I could be the one writing your posts right now.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Aussiemum, you ask "If someone chooses to FF because they have to " - I dont really understand. If you have to, it's not your choice, it's necessity. So, it's not a question of choosing, is it?

I hope you realise that I wasnt in the slightest bit meaning that you personally should go to a mainstream board.







I meant that if someone really wants to read about mainstream stuff like formula being good, cio working and spanking, they will not fit at mdc. Rather like you and I certainly wouldn't fit at a mainstream board.









I guess your perception is that judgements about formula are reinforced here over and over. I don't see that, but I do realise that the underlying assumption is that the majority of women here are knowledgeable about breastfeeding being best. (really best, not lip service) But its rather like how you notice a type of car on the road 50 times in a 10 mile journey if you are researching buying one of those cars. If you weren't vested in that model of car, you wouldnt notice the ones that drive past you. So I guess I don't notice the references that you notice, or I process them differently. I do think though that very few people here would intentionally wnat to upset those who can't breastfeed. And I know that I've read the caveat about 'choice' vs 'necessity' many many times here.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Aussiemum, thinking soem more about this. For a while last year I simply couldnt open many of the posts on mdc where people were blissfully raving about their new babies or their pregnancy. I was especially sensitive about those threads where people were complaining about pregnancy issues or lack of sleep from a new baby.

Yet I knew logically that none of them were the slightest bit aware of my feelings, having just lost a baby. Why should they be? But it seemed that every time I opened a thread, there it was. The baby, the complaint, the 'poor me' syndrome.

So, LoveBeads, I do understand how it feels to have my body 'fail me'. I'm especially living with it these few weeks as my due date is imminent. I also know though that this is my issue, not that of people who innocently post about their tiredness or aching legs or whatever........I'm sure that those who post about formula are not meaning anything personal either.


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## Cakes (Jul 30, 2002)

".......there is a big difference between someone who doesn't bedshare and doesn't respond to their kids, and someone who doesn't bedshare but is 100% responsive to all of their kids needs, all of the time......"

Just jumping in with a very humble thought on my part.........

Why can't the essence of the above quote be applied to all the different aspects of AP parenting? With my first I had very little knowledge of natural childbirth and AP parenting. I sort of fell into it when my first was 3weeks old. It solidified all of my instincts and I have learned so much in the last 6 years, mostly through trial and error and lots of research.

I can't believe that there is anyone out there who has done "perfect/100% " AP parenting.

We have all had to compromise on one thing or another. However, because of the compromise we all have an emotional scar, so to speak, due to the fact that we all intelectually know what could be best but were not able to achieve the pefection.

I had unexpected twins the second time around. I am extremely proud of how well I have been able to AP twins.

I am still BF ( 1-2 times a day the twins are 2.5 yo).

We still co sleep when the children wander into our bed(hopefully not all three on any one night). Never used a crib.

I use a stroller to this day, even though they are 2.5, it keeps them safe and they are very entertained by the outside world (always have been).

I never used a sling but I used a Bjorn and carried the other whenever I could. Interestingly enough I used my bouncy seats and swings much less with the twins then with my singleton.

I use disposable diapers.

My son is not circ.(but would have been if he was my first).

I have done selective, timely vacinations

I reached out into my community to help me raise my twins and older daughter, and I still depend on the kindness of others.

I never turn down an offer for help.........................

*Be it holding a door so I can get my side by side stroller thru

*distracting one of the very tired twins while picking up the older sibiling from Montessori school,

*pushing my stroller to the car so I can deal with the melt down of one of my children at the playground,

*pushing two of my children in the swings so I can play hide and seek with my older daughter and her best friend while at the playground the list goes on and on.......

I don't think AP / mainstream is about following a set regiment of slings, BF, co- sleeping, cloth diapers, non vacinating, non circumcision etc. etc.

I think it is being aware of what is best ( throught research and the inner voice) and doing what you can within your reality of day to day living. The ideal /perfection is something to strive for not neccesarily always attain.

If you give someone the benefit of the doubt it will be returned.

Who really knows why peole in grocery stores do the things they do?

What happens on the playground may be a one time thing/learning experience for all involved.

I try to be less "judgemental" and more helpful/suportive based on the circumstances of the particular incidence.

Julianne







to everyone who tries to maintain the best they can be


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## Cakes (Jul 30, 2002)

Britishmum,
We must have been posting at the same time..........I am sorry for your saddness. I respectfully acknowledge the loss and upon reading your post wish my post could have been later.
Julianne


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I was about to quote someone because I think there is some really crappy stuff written here but to highlight a hurtful thing right now seems inappropriate.

I sympathize with the dilemma some of you have with expressing your views and avoiding hurting people who don't share your views. Like I said, I think it's something to be worked on, not justified.

I can tell you that if you want to get involved in activism - if you want to stop "preaching to the choir" - you'll be much more successful if you can figure out how to stop hurting the people you are trying to reach. It's great to be proud of your opinions but if you can't express them in a non-hurtful way they just won't be heard.

MDC has the potential to be a huge activism tool. But you can't have it both ways, IMO. You can't have this place be a haven for careless expression AND have it be a safe place for people to come and learn.


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Once again, ICM -









I can understand wanting to come here to vent. And I can understand feeling that those who ff out of necessity, rather than choice, shouldn't feel guilty and/or defensive.

But when we write negative opinions about formula - that is what a ff feeding Mom gave their child. Whether through choice or through necessity - so of course those Moms feel badly when we talk about how awful formula is.

It's really hard, I know - and I want to vent about certain issues as often as anyone else. It's just how and when and why. But especially how.

It seems to me that there is a world of difference between the statement: 'It was/is very important to me that I don't supplement with formula'

and

'Formula is crap, I can't believe anyone would choose to give that to their child'

Because whether or not you 'chose' to give formula, that's still what you gave (even if it was given out of necessity).


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

aussiemum-









ITA with ICM that some very hurtful things have been posted here and I also am choosing not to highlight them, but suddenly I am able to see clearly what the OP was talking about.
Venting is one thing, going off the handle in a way that has the potential to really hurt others feelings is quite another- and I've been guilty of it too. I am making a couple of decisions based on having read this thread- I am really going to try to be less judgemental of moms I see out and about, I'll assume that all mamas are doing their best and love their children just as much as I love mine. I'll remember that only kind, loving women who take the time to understand, listen and assume the best- can really make a positive change. So, I am thankful to have read all of this, and to have the chance to work on the woman/mother/advocate that I am.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by IdentityCrisisMama_
*I can tell you that if you want to get involved in activism - if you want to stop "preaching to the choir" - you'll be much more successful if you can figure out how to stop hurting the people you are trying to reach. It's great to be proud of your opinions but if you can't express them in a non-hurtful way they just won't be heard.
*
























ICM, I seriosly think that you should post this on every single board & forum. It should be a sticky for all to see; this is a point which I have tried to make over and over again, in every thread I've participated in. "If you can't express your opinions in a non-hurtful way, they just won't be heard." Short, eloquent, and brilliant! Thank you.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

---------------------> IdentityCrisisMama

Yes, yes, yes, yes! Having opinions is not the issue, it's bashing others for their supposed "wrong" choices which turns people off of AP (or any good cause).

Remember, communication is not what we say, it is the information that we receive from someone else.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by IdentityCrisisMama_
*I can tell you that if you want to get involved in activism - if you want to stop "preaching to the choir" - you'll be much more successful if you can figure out how to stop hurting the people you are trying to reach. It's great to be proud of your opinions but if you can't express them in a non-hurtful way they just won't be heard.*

Quote:

_Originally posted by LoveBeads_
*Yes, yes, yes, yes! Having opinions is not the issue, it's bashing others for their supposed "wrong" choices which turns people off of AP (or any good cause).*
Perfectly said!









This thread was really starting to make me question whether I wanted to be a part of MDC any longer and it's ideas like those above that remind me why I love this place.


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## Kinipela79 (Apr 8, 2003)

Just thought I would share this quote from a book on "judging". It's really about judging yourself but you can totally turn it to be how you view others...I thought it was good.

"Judge without being judgemental. Be gentle and compassionate with yourself. Your kindness toward and acceptance of yourself despite all your imperfections will, almost paradoxically, allow you to make more humane choices"

It's from a book called Above All, Be Kind by Zoe Weil.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I'm not going to quote you for the fourth time, ICM (wink!) but yes, I heartily agree with what you said about kindness being a much better platform for advocacy than hurling insults.

aussiemum...big, big hugs to you.







My comment, taken within the context of my post, was meant to illustrate the difference between the convictions we hold within ourselves that are part of our experience, the "armour" we build up around ourselves to be strong in those convictions, and how those convictions can affect the others around us. As Britishmum said, it's not practical to write a "disclaimer statement" every post, and I thought I'd made it quite clear by now that I would *never* judge a woman who feeds formula, that formula is a life-saver for all those babies who can't get breastmilk for whatever reason. It's not my place to decide who had valid reasons to FF and who didn't. I don't care. I look at excessive FF rates as a societal issue. I don't consider it useful or necessary or the least bit compassionate to go around blaming mothers.

Enough of that. Back to our discussion....ICM, you said something about the greatest activists you know being the least judgmental...can you expand on that some more?


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by IdentityCrisisMama_
*I was about to quote someone because I think there is some really crappy stuff written here but to highlight a hurtful thing right now seems inappropriate.*
Sigh. I want to follow your lead, ICM. I admire your tact. But that McDonald's comment really hurt me. I don't see why you would say that here, Piglet. Like ICM said, if you were to tell that to a "mainstream" formula feeder, they would just think you are a militant nutcase and you would get no farther with them. To say it here, where everyone *knows* breast is best and those of us who used formula were making hard and heartbreaking choices - well, that is just cruel. Period. How would you like it if I told you that vaxing is like giving your child a cup of rat poison? Or that you are neglecting your responsibility as a mother by choosing to work outside the home?

Thank you everyone who has posted on the last page or so of this thread. I too was seriously starting to wonder whether I should remain here or not. I guess we really opened up a can of worms on this one, huh?







:


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

We cross posted. I do not want to brow beat you over this. But I do think that the mandatory disclaimer tacked on to the end of every judgemental thing said about formula and FF does not help to ease the sting. "Well, you are basically feeding your child harmful junk but I guess you had no choice." Thanks, I feel a lot better.







:

I do not expect to be patted and told everything is OK - but let's keep the hurtful rhetoric to a minimum, please.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by famousmockngbrd_
*How would you like it if I told you that vaxing is like giving your child a cup of rat poison? Or that you are neglecting your responsibility as a mother by choosing to work outside the home?*

That's just it though - I would respect that this is what lay behind your choices. If a mother has the bravado and wherewithall to refuse vaccines in a vaccine-dominated society...they obviously have some pretty strong opinions on the issue. I think it is 100% consistent with choosing not to vax to hold the opinion that it is dangerous stuff. I don't take it the least bit personally. In fact, I would find it hard to believe that a mother would go through the uphill battle of not vaxing and yet hold the opinion "hey, vaxes aren't so bad". Of course you think they are poison! That's why you made the choice you did! That doesn't affect me in the slightest.

Same thing with WOTH, or my cesarean birth. I personally, find it rather easy to remove the conviction of one's choices from personal attacks. That is what I was trying to illustrate in my post. What the heck do you care whether I think formula is junk food or not? And why is MY reality of going into birth with that attitude any less valid then anyone else's reality of formula being a life-saving fluid that saved their child?

I guess I"m just not explaining myself very well....sigh!


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

I think the difference Piglet is that those of us who formula fed believe that breastfeeding is best, we just didn't have the luck of our bodies cooperating so that we could follow through with our convictions. Being reminded of the fact that breastfeeding is best is not hurtful, being told that we have fed our newborns something akin to McDonald's is hurtful.

Those who vaccinated did so out of choice. Those who co-sleep do so out of choice. Those who couldn't breastfeed did not do it out of choice.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Right, LB.

Also, I can think that not vaxing is a better choice without going so far as to think that vaxes are "poison". I know some people do think that. I am not one of them.

I don't know why I care. I guess I felt judged.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*...In fact, I would find it hard to believe that a mother would go through the uphill battle of not vaxing and yet hold the opinion "hey, vaxes aren't so bad". Of course you think they are poison! That's why you made the choice you did! That doesn't affect me in the slightest....*
Why do you have to think vaccines are "poison" to not use them? Can't you just think they do more harm than good? Why does using formula have to be "abuse" or "junk food", can't breastmilk just be better?

I understand that some people actually do think vaccines are "poison" and formula is "junk food" but I disagree. A mother *can* give her infant poison (antifreeze, cleaning products) and/or junk food (soda, candy). In my opinion, mothers who choose to vaccinate and/or feed their baby formual are not giving their child poison and/or junk food.

I fed my son formula over a decade ago. It used to really hurt when I heard words like "junk food" applied to the food I fed to my infant. But time has changed my perspective, now when when I hear people using such extreme language about things like formula (junk food, abuse, etc.), it usually makes me think that maybe they are speaking more about their own insecurity than my choices. It's as if the choice they didn't make has to be the worst thing possible to make them feel superior about the choice they did make.

Breastmilk is best. I didn't give my son the best possible infant food, but I didn't feed him junk food either.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Thanks, PMM - you said it better than I did.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Hey, I did NOT *tell* anybody here that they feed their children "junk food". Please read my words again, in the context of my post. I said that this was the attitude I went into birth with, to steel my shaky-resolve against what I perceived may have been an uphill battle. The whole point of that post was to say "if my personal convictions (based on my experiences and for my own unique situations) are this way, but I treat those with different convictions with the respect and lack of assumptions they deserve, does that make me judgemental?". My comment about McDonalds was the "voice in my head" (and I think I was very clear about that) - it was most certainly NOT a statement to FF mamas that you are feeding crap to your babies and it was not meant as an "educational sound bite" either.

Look, if I were a mama living in a famine-laden country with my kids starving to death and someone offered me a lifetime supply of chicken nuggets and kraft dinner don't you think I'd be dancing in the streets that my children can grow and thrive? OTOH, if I am a mama in the local Piggly Wiggly and I'm picking KD over wholesome foods, then it's a different story right? As a BFing mom, I have the "luxury" (and I know it's due largely to good fortune!) of having the attitude I do towards formula. I don't expect, nor would I presume to impose, that attitude on anybody else, b/c I believe strongly in the "walk a mile in their shoes" principle.

Check out the PG board and see the amazing extents women are going to to avoid an U/S. Then there's me, who was pregnant while we had an U/S machine in the lab, and hopped up on the table every chance I got to take a peek at my babe. I have nothing but respect and admiration for mamas making tough choices based on their convictions, and I simply do NOT take it as "directed at me" when they post that they would rather risk not knowing that their baby has heart defects than do ONE TEENY TINY LITTLE U/S (something I did many, many times over and admitted to up front). I'm finding it nearly impossible to understand why some people cannot remove someone else's personal convictions from an attack upon themselves.

However, with that said ... it's obvious from the posts here that feelings were hurt, and for that I deeply, truly apologize. It was honestly not my intention to hurt people, and to each and every one of you who was "stung" by my words, please accept my sincerest apologies.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Heres Piglets quote:

Quote:

example: I am so passionate about breastfeeding that I basically went into hospital with the attitude "you are feeding that garbage to my baby over my dead body" (life threatening situations notwithstanding, of course) as I felt that gave me the strength and determination I might need to counter the Supplement Police (I tend to buckle under in confrontational situations). How can I possibly convey that and then not come across as judgemental about those who FF even though I would *never* dare to comment to some poor mama about her choices? I struggle with this: I think formula is crappy, substandard, processed food on the level of McDonald's-with-added-vitamins (there! I said it!)....yet my heart goes out to mamas who can't BF - how does hearing my rant make them feel? Pretty crappy I would guess. Does it make me judgemental? I don't know...

Its pretty obvious to me where she was coming from. Not from a place of saying that those who FF are giving their dcs crap.......just an opinion from her, a person who is a bf advocate and someone who had the choice/ability to bf and chose to . Not someone who looks down on someone who FF, or, especially on someone who cant thru no fault of their own.

Guess we need a disclaimer button next to the spoiler and quote buttons.


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## fyrflymommy (Jan 20, 2003)

:


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:

Okay. What's the matter with that? I'm not trying to sound antagonistic here, but really -- why is it right to refrain from judging people's decisions? To me, speaking for myself, this is about as impossible as suspending my ability to think -- I just can't help BUT make a judgment about darn near everything. And really, though many people's different decisions may be worthy of respect and certainly are worthy of being given the benefit of the doubt, the bottom line is that you can't agree with or respect *every single* point of view. The best we can do is make our decisions for what we hope and pray are the right reasons.

Can we get back to this conversation....or is it done?


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I think it is impossible to avoid judging our own and other's decisions. About parenting, or what to wear to church, or whatever. I know that I use my reactions to what I see others doing to help me make future choices about my life, so its good for me to analize my reactions.

But, it is possible, and desireable, to express those judgements without hurting other's feelings. Going a step further, it should be a goal of posters here to express themselves AFTER thinking things through. Have I really given someone the benefit of the doubt? Have I said anything that can be easily taken out of context (for example, I still have trouble reading Piglet's quote and getting her stated intent). Have I made a general statement ("blue cars are are bad") when I really meant a more limited statement ("chosing to drive a car that pollutes because it doesn't have a muffler is bad"). If we remember those sorts of guidelines, I think everyone would feel better.

I don't think being "judgemental" is all bad, its the way that it makes a third party feel that is bad. For example, I judge the woman at the grocery store (which is normal), then come here and make a general statement about what I saw and why it's bad. A totally innocent person then reads the statement and feels judged. I've just created a problem where there shouldn't have been one.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*I struggle with this: I think formula is crappy, substandard, processed food on the level of McDonald's-with-added-vitamins (there! I said it!)....*
I am taking this out of context, but only because rainsmom quoted the entire paragraph in her post. FTR, this was the part that made me take offense. If I misinterpreted it, I am sorry. I have to admit that I still don't think I did but I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.









Piglet, you said the following:
"I'm finding it nearly impossible to understand why some people cannot remove someone else's personal convictions from an attack upon themselves."

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

I would like to state again that going on and on about how horrible X is and ho they would never do that to their children and people who do should be beaten with a stick, etc. etc. and then adding a disclaimer to say "but you, well, you HAD to do it, that's different" does not make the previous rant any less offensive! I guess you have to experience it to understand how this is true.

I will stop harping on this now to get out of the way of the bigger discussion. I have some thoughts on that but the boy is busily at work destroying something in the other room....


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by famousmockngbrd_
*I would like to state again that going on and on about how horrible X is and ho they would never do that to their children and people who do should be beaten with a stick, etc. etc. and then adding a disclaimer to say "but you, well, you HAD to do it, that's different" does not make the previous rant any less offensive!*
I agree. But that is not what I did...

anyways, I'm certainly willing to admit that I failed miserably at trying to get my point across, and in the process hurt peoples' feelings. the frustration you hear in my last post is not just directed at those who seem to be taking my words out of context and taking them personally when they were about *me*, but most especially at myself for writing volumes and still somehow managing to be clear as mud. I don't like upsetting people like that.









but yeah..I, too, would like to try to return to the original discussion...what rainsmom said...and also I wanted ICM to elaborate on the "activism without judgement" topic as I'm interested to hear more...


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Piglet, I completely understood your point when you first made it, although I took a deep breath and knew that it was going to get some strong reactions. I guess if its a sensitive point, then the word McDonalds would leap at you and the overall meaning becomes less significant than the emotional impact of the words.

I understand that it is common for us to equate personal statements of belief about a product or a procedure with an attack on ourselves if we made that choice or had to do so. However, I also think that the problem is often _within ourselves_ for feeling attacked, more than with the person who made a statement of belief.

As I said in my earlier post, when I lost my baby, I felt hurt every time I read here or heard a mother complain about her pregnancy or her lack of sleep or sore nipples or whatever. But that hurt belonged to me. None of those people made their complaints or jokes or comments about their babies _meaning_ to upset me. They were stating facts or beliefs. I chose to be hurt. I own my feelings.

That's not to say that some things are not tactless and unnecessary. And often when people feel hurt, words are taken out of context. For that reason the choice of an analogy to McDonalds was imo tactless. (although no doubt some of what I have said would be viewed as tactless or hurtful too).

My choice when I was hurting over my baby and not wanting to read baby moans, was to either not come to mdc, or to deal with it, scroll on by if something hurt, and understand that nothing personal was meant.

I understand that maybe sometimes someone posts something here about formula without the disclaimer, but cant we assume that 99.99% of members here don't believe that formula is wrong for those who have to use it. They believe it is a bad _choice_ not a bad product. There is a big difference. I tend to make that assumption about any post about the evils of formula, because we are here with _AP_ parents who are going to almost exclusively be breastfeeding advocates.

Back to topic (I think LOL) "why is it right to refrain from judging people's decisions?"

There is a big difference between judging people and judging people's decisions. Isn't there?


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Britishmum_
*However, I also think that the problem is often within ourselves for feeling attacked, more than with the person who made a statement of belief.

... None of those people made their complaints or jokes or comments about their babies meaning to upset me. They were stating facts or beliefs. I chose to be hurt. I own my feelings.*
Intent is very important. I have had comments directed at me on MDC which could have had no other purpose than to hurt me. Did I choose to be offended? Yes, I suppose I did, but it's back to the attack. When someone attacks you, it's perfectly natural to respond. I don't think that the problem was with me, I believe that the problem was with the person who chose to attack me. I can't stand it when people attack me and then get all offended that I felt defensive.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Britishmum, your post yesterday left me thinking....... i'm so sorry about the loss of your baby; i haven't had this experience in life, but am close to others who have







. I'm not a praying woman, but I'll send plenty of good vibes your way out there in cyber-land .... Parenting, & being involved with other families, & learning so much about yourself can be an incredibly painful experience sometimes, yet I wouldn't trade it for the world. We all have something to deal with in the end, don't we? Something that has the potential to change us & how we relate to the world...... I feel like my children have been a gift that has allowed me to see the world from a different (& better) perspective, a less black & white perspective. Right vs. wrong has become a more fuzzy concept, I guess..... & I do thank my children for helping me become a more tolerant person..... (they help me all the time, bless 'em







)

Now, enough rambling there, I'll end with this.






























For us all......


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Aussiemum, thanks.









Yes, parenting is often a painful experience. I often think about how everything seemed in my own control until I had children. With both my two girls we had major scares within the first weeks, in dd$2's case, hours of birth. Both turned out fine, but at the time the realisation hit me that I no longer control this thing. It's humbling to realise that life is so much bigger than yourself.

We all go through our trials and tribulations. One of the problems with internet is that although we might feel that we are friends with other members here, we don't know details of all their lives. So, we talk as if we're with our local AP group where maybe there are some shared values and belief systems, but we are unaware of those members who have troubled lives or reasons to feel hurt by other people's assumptions.

I have been thinking a lot about this. To a certain extent, I think that we are on an AP board and so certain things are going to be expected as underlying beliefs, so we can't dot every i and cross every t in every post. But on the other hand, we can be mindful about the way that we express ourselves. I smile to myself sometimes on the diapering forum, for example, as I cd one child and use disposables on my other strong-willed will-not-accept-change dd. So where do I fit when I read people's abhorrence of those who use disposables?

I can identify with their abhorrence, but I also have my own issues with a child who quite literally would not have a cloth diaper within 10 yards of her body. But if any of those cloth activists saw me with my dd at the mall, they'd think I was one of 'those' mothers who doesnt understand or care about the chemicals in disposable diapers. I do understand and I do care, but I also have to deal with my child in my situation. As I said on another thread recently about clothing wars with children, unless you'd tried to parent my child, you just would not understand.

So, the key has to surely be discussion where we all accept that there are some generally shared AP values and that we need to put aside our personal issues and not feel personally attacked by others comments _as long as they are not personal attacks._ We cant expect a disclaimer in every post, nor can we expect people to know of our personal issues. Nor can we expect everyone to have as good a command of written English as ourselves LOL. We can personally try to choose diplomatic, uninflammatory language and check our posts so as not to inadvertently upset others. Like, not implying that someone who formula feeds cant love their child, although I'm not tuned into this issue so hve never picked up on this sentiment here. People need to think about their message and the implication of their words. But we also have to accept and allow for the fact that people are coming from different places with busy lives and not necessarily the time or ability to put their thoughts into print without saying something that may upset someone. So, we need to own our own emotions and see it as our own personal issue to deal with. If we want to belong to a board such as this, anyway.

And thanks for the kind thoughts sent my way. I appreciate it.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

There is judging. And there is discerning.

Judging is a right/wrong/black/white moral issue.

Discernment is observing an action, hearing an idea, etc., and discerning what works for you and what doesn't.

Example: When I was 11, my sister gave birth to my nephew. Epidural, episiotomy, normal American birth. She put him in a crib from day one and formula fed out of choice. I thought that's the way it was.

Fast forward ten years. I meet a lovely hippie Orthodox Jewish woman my dh used to do dead tour with. She had her baby at home, wore him in a sling, breastfed him on cue, etc.

I "discerned" that the woman I met who used AP ideas would fit who I was the best.

I went through a course of harsh judgment toward people that did not "know any better". WHY are they formula feeding??? WHY did they okay the induction, end up with a c-section, and think it was necessary??? WHY WHY WHY???

I think when you first discover something as important and life-altering as motherhood, it's normal to go through some of those feelings at first. It's like being born again. You have to crawl before you learn how to walk. You have to work through all those feelings in order to grow and be a compassionate example to the children you were blessed with.


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*I simply do NOT take it as "directed at me" when they post that they would rather risk not knowing that their baby has heart defects than do ONE TEENY TINY LITTLE U/S (something I did many, many times over and admitted to up front).*
A bit OT but since the ACOG cannot rule that 'ONE TEENY TINY LITTLE U/S' as *safe* , then many of us don't really have to go to any 'amazing extents' as you call them, to avoid something that cannot be confirmed as safe for us or our babes. It isn't that big of a stretch to imagine, is it? It isn't safe so we make the decision to avoid something that isn't safe (logical to me, not a big stretch of the mind).

I sincerely hope that a heart defect dx woudn't be made by any physician based on 'ONE TEENY TINY...' At a minimum, another u/s should be rx'd if the technician and physician suspect a heart defect. If someone thinks that it is just 'ONE...LITTLE U/S' to diagnose something as serious as a heart defect, then they do not understand the limits of u/s nor what a responsible physician should do upon suspecting such a pathology.

You are probably aware that something as serious as a heart defect often threatens the viability of the fetus which doesn't mean in utero surgery most often, it means that the pregnancy doesn't make it.

If judgements are going to be made, which I so hope they are b/c there is nothing wrong with that, then accurate information is always best.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Thanks to everyone who gave me support for what I said earlier. I feel like a dork for saying this but it feels really good to have something I said be given that much approval and it has inspired me to be true to my words, which is something that I struggle with.

I think the most positive thing that came from this thread is that we all seem to be thinking more about the words we use to express our judgmental feelings. I still feel that judgmental feelings are something to be worked on internally but I agree that keeping them from directly hurting another person is another important step.

I related this thread to activism - not to bring us off topic - but because I felt that some people were already talking about activism. To me, statements like, "aren't children worth it" and discussions about alarming FF rates are activism issues. It frustrates me to read these issues being used as if they are excuses for being judgmental. Will someone tell me how harboring judgmental feelings helps "the children"?

I don't think this type of (local) activism can be well delivered from a judgmental person. Personally, I don't think it's even enough to successfully hide your judgmental feelings or learn to express them well because I think the internal judgmental feelings will really obstruct you.

If you approach the situation with a running dialogue (even if it's just in your head) of judgmental-ism you will not be able to reach the person. If you're judgmentally thinking, "What possible reason could she have for thinking this is a good thing?" or "Yea, it's hard but it was hard for me too but _my_ kids are worth it" then you are going to push the person away because you are not coming to the situation with kindness and openness.

I think you need to be coming from a place of *true* openness, compassion and a huge effort for understanding when you approach a situation with activism goals. Also, I think your primary goal needs to offer support (not conformity). I have seen some activist at work. From what I see their first goal seems to be to understand as best as possible. After they understand they nurture. Guidance naturally flows from this type of support, imo. If you offer understanding and nurturance the person will seek you out for guidance

Lots more to say but DC is hungry...TTFN, H.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

aussiemum, thanks.









britishmum: well said again!

I wanted to hit on what candiland said about discovering ways that "fit" you, that excite you, as being similar to a "born again" experience. Tigerchild once wrote a post here - I wished I'd saved it - talking about this in detail. I remember that, when I had discovered AP and done my research and made my decisions, I was just so darned EXCITED about them! Sometimes in my zealousness I got really judgemental and intolerant (in my head - but as ICM says, that can come out anyways). I feel as though being here at MDC, and the numerous times I've done this







has taught me alot. Obviously, I'm not there yet (







) but I know I've come a long way.

I have to admit, when I read a post like ICM's last one, it sort of makes me feel a bit inadequate. I mean, it's such a wonderful sentiment to say none of us should be judgemental and we should all seek to understand/have compassion for those who do things we abhor (or simply don't agree with). I agree that's an ideal to strive for, but I tend to feel that I'm more along the lines of Charles Baudelaire's post - I'm human and I have strong opinions and I *try* not to let those hurt people. I suppose it doesn't hurt to set high standards for personal growth, but OTOH I feel like I need to give validation to my strong opinions too, kwim?

Now a general question for y'all: this concept of "whatever works for you"....is that really what most of us feel?

I know for me, I chose to do the things I do b/c I felt it was absolutely in the best interests of my child's physical and emotional well-being. I don't consider it a "lifestyle choice". When I say to someone who would never even think of cosleeping (disclaimer: differentiating completely from those whose babies actually prefer crib sleeping) "well, you have to do what works for you" - and I'm going to be honest here - sometimes I really don't really believe that. I'm just saying it to be nice. This sort of inner hypocrisy troubles me. It's not the case for all things, of course.

Anyways, I guess what I'm asking is: did most of us here choose to do the things we do (cosleeping, babywearing, GD, whatever) simply b/c we felt "hey, that fits me, that's conducive to my lifestyle"....was it that benign? For me, alot of it is much deeper than that. Maybe that is why some of us have an easier time being less judgemental than others. Maybe it has to do with the level of passion behind your choices...what do you think?


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:

I have to admit, when I read a post like ICM's last one, it sort of makes me feel a bit inadequate. I mean, it's such a wonderful sentiment to say none of us should be judgemental and we should all seek to understand/have compassion for those who do things we abhor (or simply don't agree with). I agree that's an ideal to strive for, but I tend to feel that I'm more along the lines of Charles Baudelaire's post - I'm human and I have strong opinions and I *try* not to let those hurt people. I suppose it doesn't hurt to set high standards for personal growth, but OTOH I feel like I need to give validation to my strong opinions too, kwim?


I was going to post the same thing! I mean, try it today.....walk thru your day and try NOT to have a judgement on anyone/anything. ITs nearly impossible. you see someone spanking thier kid......something negative runs thru your head first, before something compassionate.....Maybe not all the time, but I have to be honest with myself....on certain issues I am passionate about. Esp when its a situation where you cant say anything to that person.

Quote:

Anyways, I guess what I'm asking is: did most of us here choose to do the things we do (cosleeping, babywearing, GD, whatever) simply b/c we felt "hey, that fits me, that's conducive to my lifestyle"....was it that benign? For me, alot of it is much deeper than that. Maybe that is why some of us have an easier time being less judgemental than others. Maybe it has to do with the level of passion behind your choices...what do you think?

I think things like cosleeping........for myself, I didnt know I was going to do that when I had dd......it just felt normal to when it came right down to it. But for some people it doesnt occur to them or they do it for a short time and then it just doesnt work. In that situation you HAVE to do what works for you.....you have to sleep and feel good about your choice. In my belief, in my mind, I dont think cosleeping is for everyone at a certain point. Things like spanking......well, like I said above......there is never a good reason for me to do that. Its something Im passionate about. But Im someone who doesnt even do it to my dog.......and I see people hitting their dogs and it drives me crazy! But I dont say to myself, well, thats what works for them (with their dog or their dc). I say to myself, well, they dont know that there's a better way...... Thats totally a biased judgment on my part. One Ive made from my own experience as a child who was hit, and as a mother who doesnt hit, and from the many books from experts on the subject that Ive read.

So to conclude my thoughts.....YES! Of course it has to do with your level of passion about something. I think for myself, when I have judgements about something.......I try to be compassionate about what Im thinking inside, and about the person Im thinking it about. But when youre writing it out in words on this board......it does sound harsh....not like when its our private thoughts.


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*Maybe it has to do with the level of passion behind your choices...what do you think?*








I think that's it for me. I'm just so passionate about these things.

I'm not articulate this morning, so I don't dare expound or else I will likely offend someone with my passion.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

I don't know. I feel very passionately about the decisions that I made, and I feel very passionately that every parent should think about the decisions that they make. I get irritated and I do pass judgement when people are presented with an alternate point of view and won't consider it, but I don't feel too judgemental when people make decisions out of ignorance (having had no opportunity to learn anything different) or when they've thought about it and come to a different conclusion than I have.

For example: let's take circumcision. (*Note to Piglet: This is not a discussion of the merits/drawbacks of circumcision, it's just the clearest example I could come up with. I will edit if necessary, please PM me.) The average American woman is not Jewish or Muslim and has, therefore, given absolutely no thought to the fact that many American baby boys are circumcised in hospitals every day. It doesn't occur to them until they get pregnant and find out they're having a boy. When the doctor asks if they want the baby to be circumcised, they don't think much about it; if their husband is, they say yes and if he isn't they say no. (Sweeping generalizations here, I know!)

When presented with information about what the foreskin of the penis is/does, and reasons that some people choose to circumcise their sons (or themselves) and that some people choose not to, it is the responsibility of the parents to think about it and weigh the decision carefully. Failing to do so is, in my eyes, the greatest possible error that any parent can commit. Many people conclude that they will not circumcise their boys, and many conclude that they will for various reasons. I don't feel that it's my place to judge people who've made a different decision from my own, only people who refuse to even consider the issue.

Parents who choose not to have their sons circumcised often see it as a simple, black and white issue. They refuse to acknowledge any shades of gray at all, and I think that the reason they do this is fear; they are making a decision which is not "mainstream" and are afraid that if they concede any opposing points that they will not be able to stand their ground against other opposing points. I take issue with very judgemental attitudes of those who refuse to concede shades of gray; it's not logical to me, and I can't make it make any sense no matter how I twist it. Just because a decision is simple for me to make, that doesn't mean that reaching the same conclusion should be just as simple for someone else.

The problem is, on MDC I think that people are more likely to decide that because someone has reached a different conclusion from their own that they haven't considered the issue or haven't done so well enough. I find that attitude very offensive, and I really think that a lot of people here need to work on it. It's simply not true that because someone reached a different conclusion from your own that a)they haven't thought about it at all b)they're ignorant of the "truth" c)they don't care, d)you care more than they do or e)they're not capable of logical thought. That kind of judgement runs rampant here and it absolutely sickens me. It's one thing to be passionate about your point of view, and it's another entirely to say that anyone who doesn't subscribe to it is barbaric or sick or selfish or whatever. (Oh yes, I could quote places where each and every one of those points and more has been made.







: )


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Piglet, you have raised a very interesting question. And I think the answer to it is that it all comes down to your particular personality. (gee, wasn't that insightful?







)

For me, I am very uncomfortable with extremes. That doesn't mean to say that I don't have passions, I just choose to see that my choices are the best and other's choices are not necessarily BAD. I definitely am a "life and let live" person.

Frankly, it couldn't interest me less whether people co-sleep, vaccinate, smoke or have affairs. I make the choices that are good for me and it truly does not affect me what other people do. I don't even debate these things because I'm not going to change someone else's mind, they aren't going to change mine, and even if I could change someone's mind, it's not that important to me to do so.

My exception to this is my feeling about gentle discipline which to ME is the definition of AP. I find all of the other "stuff" of babywearing, co-sleeping, etc. just temporary. Yes, a necessary foundation, but fleeting. Whereas GD is an ongoing, several-year process which I really believes makes (or breaks) the connection between parents and children, and eventually children and their friends and spouses. The entire crux of AP for me is found in GD and this is my "hot button".

I find it almost funny to argue about cloth diapers and breastfeeding when there is something so much more fundamental and urgent in the way we treat our children. Yeah, it's good to establish that connection early with co-sleeping, but co-sleeping and then humiliating your children with punishment doesn't make for a connection. Crib sleeping and treating your children with dignity will do a far better job especially if your child prefers the crib and your meeting his/her cues, or if mom prefers the crib because she actually gets sleep and isn't cranky and short-tempered the next day.

So...you asked! That's my take.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

eilonwy: I don't have a problem with you choosing to use circ'ing as an example. I think the points you are trying to make are about decision making and judgement, not circ'ing itself, so if nobody here takes off and runs with a circ debate then I think it's just fine.









LoveBeads...you are so right about personality. My DH says I'm a very opinionated person (and not necessarily a bad thing, just something that, combined with my tendency to talk too much, and not think clearly before talking, gets me into trouble!). I tend to think very black and white (on some issues). Also, I think my training as a scientist tends to get me in trouble: I've been taught to define a hypothesis clearly and with conviction, then argue to support that hypothesis (it being the job of the other guy to raise the counter-points and argue against the opposite POV)...I think when it comes to other areas in my life that gets me into trouble sometimes. I speak as if I were stating facts, assuming that everybody gets that this is just my own POV, and fully expecting people to simply counter-point my facts with their own, instead of taking things personally. I then am surprised when people get hurt.









I also love what you said about GD being the lifelong practice, versus the baby stuff which is fleeting. Someone else in this long thread (pugmadmama, I think) said the same thing. I know I get really caught up in the baby stuff right now...and I often wonder if, 10 years from now, I will be so passionate about such things. But....it's my reality right now - if you'd met me 5 years ago, you'd find me ranting on my equestrian board about how to best handle/train horses.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

One comment on what eilonwy wrote - I do not react so passionately out of fear. I truly believe in the things I do and view them as so important that I can't in good conscience just say to each their own when I feel that a child is being harmed.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Heavenly, you are helping illustrate what I was trying to say. A person can have a strong judgment and totally not accept the "to each their own" type thinking (that is not really how I am, btw) and still not do a darn thing to actually help prevent children from being harmed. Anyone can label something as abuse, anyone can judge other parents, anyone can complain about how much they don't approve of this or that.

How is this helping a single child?

I know there is lots more on these posts but ya'll are too fast for me. Hopefully I can come back tonight.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by IdentityCrisisMama_
*I think the most positive thing that came from this thread is that we all seem to be thinking more about the words we use to express our judgmental feelings. I still feel that judgmental feelings are something to be worked on internally but I agree that keeping them from directly hurting another person is another important step. ...

... Personally, I don't think it's even enough to successfully hide your judgmental feelings or learn to express them well because I think the internal judgmental feelings will really obstruct you.*
ITA with this, in fact I was talking to a friend about this thread last night and we said pretty much the same thing. I also agree with Piglet when she said that it is very hard to do. And of course, the question of whether it is even possible is a valid one as well.

We all have opinions, and we all make judgements. Not to get bogged down in semantics, but there is a difference between making judgements and "being judgemental". I don't think it is realistic or helpful to go around thinking that whatever anyone does is just a matter of their personal choice and it's all OK with you. That is "PC" taken to a ridiculous extreme - it's apathy and intellectual laziness disguised as tolerance and open-mindedness.

IMO, the way to not be judgemental but still be able to assess whether something is "good" or "bad" is to somehow disassociate the action from the person committing it. You can hate spanking, but not the spanker. If you truly have compassion for someone, you will not hurt them by thinking or saying things like "How can you do that to your children?", etc. etc.

For instance - when my DH does something I don't like, I don't go off on a mental tirade against him, or think things like "What a selfish, ignorant jerk!" I love my DH and I have a basic concept of him as a good person. So I tend to think things like, "Why is he acting this way? What can we do to overcome this problem?" and other more constructive things like that. I have respect for him, and I honor him as a person, so I *can't* say things to him like "What the hell is the matter with you?!" It would hurt *me* to do so. Now, this is NOT to say I never get mad at my DH or feel like he is being insensitive or whatever. But I see it as a temporary state - the *real* him is kind, loving, etc. even if he isn't acting that way. Of course not everyone in the world is loving or kind, but I try to give them the benefit of the doubt until they convince me otherwise.


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

I think there are a lot of things going on here.

I don't actually think it is possible to judge a parenting practice (and verbalise that judgement) without people who parent that way feeling judged.

If someone practices CIO and comes here to read rants about how CIO is child abuse (even if someone adds the disclaimer that she knows that the parent is doing their best, but still&#8230 - that person is going to feel that they are being called a child abuser.

Same with co-sleeping, breast-feeding, not spanking, etc.

Those of you who are saying that we all make judgements about things around us - of course that is true. And more mainstream parents also make judgements about things we do (think of all the threads about people being afraid of CPS being called on them for many of the parenting practices that are supported here at MDC).

And it is also true that all (or almost all) parents make the choices they make because they feel those choices are best for their children, their family, their circumstances. I think that is one of the very difficult things about parenting - the simple fact that I make a different parenting choice than another Mama means that I think that my choice is better (for me) than her choice. If I thought her choice was better, that's the choice I would have made for my own child/family/situation, right?

I agree, Piglet, that a lot of what comes across as judgementalism stems from passion - I think, here at MDC, most of us here feel passionately about the parenting choices we make. Most of these parenting choices aren't supported in the real world, so to make them, we HAVE to feel strongly, as we're swimming against the tide, so to speak.

But - just because we feel passionately about something doesn't mean we can't be very, very careful about how we express ourselves. Precisely because our passion can come across as judgementalism, we need to be extremely careful about how we express it - I think that's all ICM (and others) are saying.

Just to touch on the breastfeeding issue - I don't think we can compare being unable to breastfed with making the decision to have a c-section, or an ultrasound or to vax/not vax. Because all of those things are choices - if one is unable to breastfed, and has to supplement (or completely ff), then that isn't a choice.

Speaking as someone who, tonight, nursed all three of my children before they went to bed - if I had been unable to breastfeed them, and I had had to use formula - I would have been absolutely devastated. I want what is best for my children, and it would have hurt so very, very much to know that I couldn't provide them with all of the physical benefits of breast-feeding.

And to have to be reminded of the fact that I had given my children formula, when I desperately wanted to give them breastmilk, whenever I came to MDC (even if it was accompanied by assurances that I wasn't being judged for that, as it was a necessity for me), would have just rubbed salt into the wounds, I think. Is that so difficult to understand?
I parent the way I parent because I do think this is the absolute best for my children. But I agree with a lot of what Eilonwy said (although, ironically enough, I don't agree that it applies to circumcision, but that's a whole 'nother argument we won't get into here!) - that the tendency to see everything in black and white here at MDC is a big part of the problem.

There can be good reasons- for a particular individual to choose not to co-sleep or not to breast-feed or whatever. I personally struggle a lot with nursing one of my children - I can't stand it, feel very negative about it, etc., etc. I know she needs to nurse; and I know that if my negative feelings about nursing her affect our relationship, that can outweigh the good I do by meeting her need to nurse.

At the moment, we have our boundaries, and those are helping me to be able to meet her needs. But my struggle with my own negative feelings has given me more compassion for/understanding of mothers who don't love the nursing relationship as I always did with my babies. Does that make sense?

Although I personally can't understand choosing not to nurse (just as I know people who really can't understand choosing to continue nursing three children at once!), I am learning that the choice to breast-feed isn't as black and white as I once thought.

I still feel sad/frustrated/etc when I hear of Moms who don't try to breast-feed/give up after a week/etc. But what good does my judgement of them and their choices do? Especially when I haven't walked a mile in their shoes?

I always think it is a good idea to sit back and re-read posts before hitting 'send', and ask yourself - How would I feel if I'd felt I needed to (for whatever reason) do the thing I'm criticising/ranting about in my post?


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Sorry - that other post was getting so long!

And re-reading it, I haven't managed to say everything I wanted to.

I do think that there are some parents who choose to do things without knowing/realising that there are other/different/better ways to do things. I reactive co-slept with my oldest daughter when she was an infant/baby - it seemed natural to me, but I kept being told it was a bad habit to get into, so I struggled to get her into a cot.

I did manage it, and with only a modified kind of CIO







(she was never left alone to cry, and she was a lot older, but still...make me very sad now). I did that out of ignorance (defined as per Piglet earlier in this thread).

That does happen - and it happens a lot, I'm sure.

But we just can't assume (as Eilonwy so eloquently said) that any parent who makes choices that are different from our choices has made them out of ignorance, etc., etc.

Sometimes people make different choices because - for them, in their situation, with their children - those ARE the best choices.

I'm hoping some of this is making sense.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*Now a general question for y'all: this concept of "whatever works for you"....is that really what most of us feel?*
I've been trying to come up with an intelligent answer to this. Other than to say, "Yup!"
















I was thinking back to something I read by William Glasser, a psychiatrist with an awesome book called, "Warning: Psychiatry can be Hazardous to your Mental Health."

In his book he says,

Quote:

"Nothing is as harmful as the third false belief. The premise goes beyond harm; it goes on to destroy most of our relationships. It is the one to be aware of and to make a strong effort to avoid. It goes this way: _Not only do I know what's right for me, I know what's right for everybody."_
That describes how I feel more clearly than I can. AP is right for me, but I don't assume it's right for everybody.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mommiska_
*...if I had been unable to breastfeed them, and I had had to use formula - I would have been absolutely devastated....*
So (just to use you as an example







), couldn't this comment be taken as an insult by a FF mom? As in, what's so horrible about what I do that you were "devastated" by it?



*Quote:*

And to have to be reminded of the fact that I had given my children formula, when I desperately wanted to give them breastmilk, whenever I came to MDC (even if it was accompanied by assurances that I wasn't being judged for that, as it was a necessity for me), would have just rubbed salt into the wounds, I think. Is that so difficult to understand?
It's not difficult to understand. What is difficult is deciding whose responsibility is it that you get hurt? As Britishmum keeps saying, I think we all need to own our feelings. What I am hearing in this quote is that we should all refrain from saying *anything* about FF that at ALL puts it in the negative b/c we might offend the FF moms. I just don't see how that is possible on a board that advocates BFing.

I don't see how it is possible to say that you went out of your way, battled the odds, swam upstream, fought to make sure your child never got any formula and then NOT have some FF mom get offended. I'm so proud that my DD never got bottles...NOT because "bottles are evil" but because I feel that I worked to get to that point and they weren't necessary for us. But if I say that, then I have to follow it with a disclaimer b/c the working/pumping moms will take it as some sort of criticism of them. We just can't seem to win!

Certainly, there are posts that everybody agrees are mean. But there are also those that hit a grey line, and then those that people just blow way out of proportion. A given individual's reaction seems to be based on their own inner feelings/conflicts around the issue. I'm struggling with the concept of expressing one's convictions without offending people. I can only control my own responses. I can choose to dismiss insults, or ignore animosity directed at me. I can also choose to take personally something that wasn't directed at me, or to read into things based on my own prejudices, emotions and experiences. But I can't control what other people say or think about me. Ultimately, that's my demon to face.


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

We use bottles, when I'm working. Mostly bm, but the odd time, we had to supplement. Though I'm still bfing my 8 mth old, I stopped nursing my 3.5mth old, and swiched to formula. I have my reasons, my regrets. I've delt with them, and moved on.
I do not get insulted with comments on bottles, or formula...unless I am pmsin'g







:
I just go on. I'm comfortable with my parenting, I am the best parent for my kids. I know that. I don't need to justify myself to anyone, anywhere.

All this to say...what's been said before...feel comfortable in your skin, and don't let other's views or comments get under your skin...unless like Piglet said, they are downright rude..


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:

feel comfortable in your skin, and don't let other's views or comments get under your skin...unless like Piglet said, they are downright rude..

ITA! Maybe thats it........some people ARENT comfortable in their skin, with their decisions...... Just a thought.....


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Argh - I'd started a response, then ds woke up...when I got back, dh had closed down my 'reply' window and lost everything I'd written (men!)...

I do hear you, Piglet - I really do.

I have often felt in the past that I haven't had to say anything for people to feel judged by me - in simply seeing the choices I've made (child-led weaning, no formula supplementation, delayed solids, no CIO [once I learned better!], leaving my son intact, etc., etc), others have felt judged. And I haven't said a word!

That is very frustrating.

I agree that we all need to own our emotions - and our individual response to a given post can say a lot about our own inner conflict/etc about a given issue.

I usually stay out of these types of threads, but having recently been through all of this with my best friend (who is very mainstream, and who felt very judged by me, despite me saying very little to her about any of my parenting choices), I have had to take a good look at myself, how I feel about parenting choices different from my own and how I choose to express myself concerning how I parent.

I have not been judging my friend at all - I think she's a wonderful mother. But yet she still felt judged by me. That really brought me up short.

I do think some of it is to do with my friend's own issues. And I can't control that, as you said. But looking back, some of it is also to do with off-hand (to me) comments that she misinterpreted. And looking back, I can understand (in some cases) why she interpreted them the way she did.

So - I have learned that I need to be more careful/sensitive to the feelings of those around me.

I think there will always be people who visit MDC and feel judged - even if they never read even a single word that could in any way be construed as judgemental here. And there isn't anything we can do about that.

I also think there will always be innocent statements of fact that are misinterpreted - perhaps like my comment that I'd have been devastated if I'd had to supplement with formula (although most of the moms here who ff from necessity have expressed similar sentiments - I thought I was just empathising with them?!).

But two points:

1) I don't think that is all we see here at MDC - only innocent comments that are misinterpreted. I do think, at times, that some fairly judgemental things are said - mostly in the 'venting' threads. I tend to avoid those for that reason. But visitors are probably drawn to them...and I wonder what impression it makes on them? If we are passionate about how we parent and want to share that passion with others, these venting threads probably aren't the way to go, you know?

and

2) I think a lot of the innocent comments could be rephrased to say the same (or a very similar) thing in a less potentially hurtful way - and if that can be done, why not do it?


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Ummm........... I feel the need to clarify one thing..........

In my last post, I think I may have come off as thinking that I myself am the soul of compassion, filled with the milk of human kindness, so to speak....... let me just say bwaa-ha-ha to that!







: I have certainly been judgemental, even downright catty, unfortunately. But I do think it is a goal worth striving for. And I still think it is possible to hold a different opinion than someone and still not judge that other person. I loved dotcommama's quote, I think I am going to print it out and tape it to my computer.









The need to own one's own emotions has been brought up here several times. I agree that you have to take responsibility for your own reactions. But I also think that people (noone specifically) need to take responsibility for the things they say. You can't just say whatever you want and then shrug your shoulders when people get upset and go, "Well, that's YOUR reaction and YOUR problem."


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

BTW Mommiska, I was not offended by your "devastated" comment. But I guess I can see how someone who saw no problem whatsoever with formula could be. But to me, that is an ignorance issue. 'Cause, there IS a problem with formula. It's NOT as good as breastmilk. It's not as bad as McDonald's, maybe.......................................







Sorry, I couldn't resist.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Anyone feel like we're doing a good job of working through this stuff?
I do&#8230;but I've had a "couple" of beers.







:

BTW, I'm no fairy princess of compassion either - I just play one on MDC&#8230;














:LOL

BTW, Piglet, I haven't forgotten that we bonded over common ideas once before. If I am challenging you it's only because I know you mean well.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*So (just to use you as an example







), couldn't this comment be taken as an insult by a FF mom? As in, what's so horrible about what I do that you were "devastated" by it?

*
Oi. I feel like I have to respond to this since I am one of those FF moms.

No, this comment isn't insulting, in fact I found the understanding to be pretty touching and I thank the poster for saying it.

I don't know why it seems to be so difficult to get this concept across but I will try again.

We (FF Moms) are breastfeeding advocates as much as the breastfeeding moms are! We believe in breastfeeding, we believe it is best, we believe that it is in the best interests of the baby to receive breastmilk, we are sad when we hear of women who choose not to breastfeed because they are grossed out by it or just don't want to be so attached to baby. We are not happy that our bodies failed us or that our children were in the NICU after they were born and couldn't receive breastmilk, or that are children have cleft palates and couldn't nurse properly, or that we didn't receive proper support when we made every attempt to breastfeed, or that we had to have surgery for kidney stones after giving birth and our milk dried up.

We feel pain that we couldn't do it or couldn't do it exclusively. We feel this pain because we are breastfeeding advocates as much as any other mom on this board.

But we don't have the luxury of feeling that formula is "bad". We have to see it as "second best".

We don't go to mainstream boards because we are breastfeeding advocates!

We don't mind seeing breastfeeding advocacy on MDC because we are breastfeeding advocates!

We do get hurt when we see our option compared to McDonald's because we didn't have a choice. If you decide not to vax, good for you. You have a choice. If you decide not to co-sleep, good for you, you have a choice. If you decide not to breastfeed, good for you, you have a choice. But for the majority of us (I would venture to guess all of us but I don't want to make that much of a sweeping generalization) on MDC had no choice!

I have definitely said all I need to on this topic, you either get it or you don't. What I'm really saying in a nutshell is this: we are all on the same page with breastfeeding, we all believe it is best. We just don't see the need to trash formula because frankly it's been painful enough to have to do what we had to do. And think about this: for those of us with girls, imagine how much fun it's going to be to encourage my daughter to breastfeed when I couldn't do it myself! I can't wait for that conversation, "why wasn't I breastfed?" I am in the awful position of having to advocate for something that I didn't do while making sure I don't speak negatively of the thing that I did do! But you know what? I truly think that teaching my daughter tolerance for other people's decision is my responsibility anyway so the chips will have to fall the way they may.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

:


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

famousmockngbrd & IdentityCrisisMama you're making me feel I should confess I'm not perfect either. Darn it now my secret is revealed.









I will say that I always try to be super careful about what I post here. I know such a variety of people read these threads so I try to be very sensitive about the words I use and how I express my opinions.


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

I am wondering if it is just human nature to feel judged?
I mean, when someone differs from my opinion and I know it, I automatically am aware of it in their presence. I know that they do not share my opinion and that they disagree with it.

ie: If my best friend "choses" to ff because she thinks breastfeeding is _weird_, and she knows that it is my belief that ff'ing is absolutely wrong and should be a prescription given by a doctor if it is needed because of medical reasons...wouldn't she always feel that I think my choices are better than hers? After all, I _would_ think my choices are better than hers...that is why I would be choosing to do it my way and not hers...OH MY HEAD!









So how can there be a real answer to most of the debates here?
Now, if instead I tell someone who choses to use disposables, that they may as well line them with poison if they are going to put them on their babys behind instead of cd'ing...then I can see why someone would get a little ticked off. YKWIM? There is a boundary that you can cross, but if I chose to parent one way instead of another...of course it is because I think one way is better than the other! Judging by definition is only "forming an opinion about things through careful weighing of evidence and testing of premises".
How can people be offended by a decision to parent differently unless you are outwardly rude? You in fact, should feel judged...because that is what judging is...having differing opinion on things.

Quote:

feel comfortable in your skin, and don't let other's views or comments get under your skin...unless like Piglet said, they are downright rude..
Exactly!


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

everyone here is voicing such great opinions + ideas. great thread, everyone... i am reminded of why i come here.
















addressing this...

Quote:

this concept of "whatever works for you"....is that really what most of us feel?
... did most of us here choose to do the things we do... simply b/c we felt "hey, that fits me, that's conducive to my lifestyle"....was it that benign?
in some things i chose, yes, it's that benign. i think that as long as a parent is responsive to their child's needs, and is raising a child who is obviously self-confident, securely-attached, happy and healthy, then their lifestyle is working and it's not my place to judge their means. we chose to cosleep because it was easier than CIO :LOL i mean, honestly... when we made the decision to sleep with our son, it just made way more sense to us than spending weeks training him to just cry and learn that he wasn't going to get held. i had no idea it actually would have caused physiological stress to not cosleep. i just thought, "hey, i like to cuddle, i like having a happy baby, and we're all getting more sleep so let's just be careful, and keep doing this..."









other things, like babywearing, i honestly didn't subscribe to at first because i didn't know why i should. my son liked to be held, and i held him, but it never crossed my mind to *wear* him, until i started reading Mothering... he also loved his swing and loved playing on the floor with me. it worked.

and so on.

with other things, there was far more passion involved... namely, with circumcision. once i learned about it, about the procedure, the risks, and the historical reasons why it became commonplace, i knew there was no way i was going to circumcize my son, period. i would have rather killed all the dr's in the hospital then let them mutilate my son... i guess i'm kind of a mama bear when it comes to people harming him.

*~*

about the ff issue... i have a couple of questions...

for those of you who ff and really look down on formula... why not use donated breastmilk? i'm curious because all of the books i have say that that's the first option next to breastfeeding that the WHO recommends for parents who can't nurse... (or maybe the third; i think the second may actually be a wet nurse, not donated breastmilk from a bottle... but either way...) is donated milk not readily available to parents? is it not high quality or not tested for diseases? are there no local milk banks? is it in short supply?

my personal opinion on breastmilk is this... if i wanted artichokes (one of my favorite veggies; just an example), i'd want to go to the market and pick out fresh, preferably organic, nice lucious artichokes. i wouldn't ever buy myself an artificial artichoke-like substance with most or some of the nutrients of artichokes, from synthetic sources... and a completely different flavor... in a can. you kwim? the real thing will always be better.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

Now, if instead I tell someone who choses to use disposables, that they may as well line them with poison if they are going to put them on their babys behind instead of cd'ing.
how about the grey area... parents who use completely biodegradable, earth-friendly disposables that have none of the chemicals of normal sposies...?

(something else i was wondering about earlier in the thread and i don't think i posted.)


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

:LOL klothos, that was just a crazy example I made up, trying to get my point across...I was trying to be extreme... :LOL


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Quote:

is donated milk not readily available to parents? is it not high quality or not tested for diseases? are there no local milk banks? is it in short supply?
No, to all of the above, my dear, at least where I live.

And I did actually read a suggestion once here on MDC that women who couldn't bf should adopt their children out so they can receive proper nutrition. The implication is if you can't make the milk, you're not a 'real' mama. What good does that do except break my heart into even tinier pieces?


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

famous, ICM...you guys are making me feel all warm and squishy inside...









I wanted to say that I do agree with you, Mommiska, that the responsibility for hurt feelings doesn't end with the one being hurt. We do each have a responsibility to think about what we've said and how we've said it. Many a time I've had to ask someone to edit, when it wasn't their message that was a problem - it was the way they said it. I struggle with foot-in-mouth syndrome myself, and I have gotten alot better (McDonald's comments notwithstanding...geez, I think this one is gonna follow me for a bit







). So yes, I agree we all owe it to ourselves to chose our words carefully.

Maybe I'm an optimist, but I don't tend to assume the worst of people. Sometimes people say things and just honestly, innocently, aren't aware of certain issues that may make their comments hurtful to some. Others, I think, are just really passionate and caught up in their enthusiasm. I really think there are very few cases here where someone is just deliberately nasty (though I know it happens).

I think it's really interesting also, to see where we all vary on what we are passionate about, and what we are "whatever works for you" about. I'm passionate about BFing, but I wouldn't say the same about CDing (obsessed, maybe, but passionate...not sure, lol). I wish everybody knew the joys and ease of babywearing, but most kids I see in strollers seem fairly content and I do see people responding when they cry. I'm passionate about not circ'ing, and iffy on the vax thing (as in, I vax, but I also totally respect the non-vaxers).

Maybe this complicates things, because it isn't just our level of passion that influences "judgementalism" (is that a word?), but when all of us are passionate to varying degrees about various aspects of parenting....wow, now that I think about it, it's amazing we get along as well as we do, lol. (must be all the wonderful mods, right?







).


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by aussiemum_
*And I did actually read a suggestion once here on MDC that women who couldn't bf should adopt their children out so they can receive proper nutrition.*
Aussiemum









That someone could say something so ridiculous is amazing.

That's not advocacy, that's stupidity.

(Sorry I'm being judgmental of another's cruel judgmental comment. Oh my!)


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by klothos_
*for those of you who ff and really look down on formula... why not use donated breastmilk?*
Well, for starters you need a prescription to get it. Generally they only give donated milk to babies with severe allergies or other medical reasons. There are only 7 milk banks in North America. It costs about $2 an ounce, plus shipping, so even if you didn't need a prescription it would be prohibitively expensive for most people, myself included. (Usually your health insurance will offset the cost, though.)


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## soccerchic21 (Jan 6, 2004)

For the OP

The Knot has a baby talk forum that might interest you. A number of women who post there seem very "main stream" you might feel more comfortable over there.

HTH


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by aussiemum_
*No, to all of the above, my dear, at least where I live.

And I did actually read a suggestion once here on MDC that women who couldn't bf should adopt their children out so they can receive proper nutrition. The implication is if you can't make the milk, you're not a 'real' mama. What good does that do except break my heart into even tinier pieces?*
OMG!







: How awful! I am a bf'ing nazi







, but I certainly cannot imagine thinking that way.







I'm thankful that formula is here for babies who cannot be breastfed.

I'm sorry you had to see _that_.


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by mamasoleil_
*Though I'm still bfing my 8 mth old, I stopped nursing my 3.5mth old, and swiched to formula.*








Do tell how you have two babies that are 4.5 months apart!


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

No, to all of the above, my dear, at least where I live.
to which i was going to ask, why not use it then, but read...

Quote:

Well, for starters you need a prescription to get it.
WHAT??














:

Quote:

Generally they only give donated milk to babies with severe allergies or other medical reasons.
what if a mother has cancer and can't nurse her baby...? do they just tell her to use formula and get over it?

Quote:

There are only 7 milk banks in North America. It costs about $2 an ounce, plus shipping....










why do all of my bf'ing books talk about them like they're everywhere and readily available, that if you can't nurse you can use donated breastmilk, if there are so few...?

why is it so expensive? just the scarcity? so few people donating? are people paid to donate? i was under the impression it was rather like a blood bank... you go in, you get screened for diseases, you donate, you feel better knowing that you helped the world.

this is ridiculous. is anybody working to increase the availability of breastmilk to mothers who can't nurse? this seems like a huge issue to me.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

ITA, but I think if you want to really get into it you should start a new thread.

To answer your questions, I think not many people donate, and it costs a lot to "process" it - I believe it has to be pasturized, etc. (though I could be wrong about that). I was amazed also to find out how few banks there really are, because like you I was under the impression that donated milk is readily available. And yeah, I think the mom with cancer would be SOOL.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

I have a lot of issues with how the breastfeeding books & manuals tell you things will be. It often doesn't match up with reality, IMO.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

T

Piglet.....I went to the other thread on "identity" and posted something and apologized for being all squishy....then came to this thread and you said the exact same thing! HOw weird is that!!

sorry.......carry on........


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

well... i'm angry. i guess i just feel misled.

Quote:

I have a lot of issues with how the breastfeeding books & manuals tell you things will be. It often doesn't match up with reality, IMO.
i already took issue w/ the fact that they all say your milk will come in quickly and easily, and that if you have a proper latch you won't experience any pain...

it's just... disappointing i guess, or disheartening. or both.

Quote:

To answer your questions, I think not many people donate, and it costs a lot to "process" it - I believe it has to be pasturized, etc. (though I could be wrong about that).
i just looked it up, and they do pasteurize it... according to one millk bank's website...

_Your milk will be pasteurized by the milk bank so that viruses are killed, but almost all of the passive immunity in breast milk will remain._

that bothers me too. i mean, i understand why they do it, that makes sense... but the whole point of breastfeeding -- IMO -- is that you're giving a live, whole, raw food that's perfect...








:

(( this issue just got a whole lot less black & white... ))


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Quote:

well... i'm angry. i guess i just feel misled.
I can relate to that, klothos. I thought a lot of things about breastfeeding before I actually did it.......

I think it's partly that bf'ing has been put down & dismissed for so long, that you just get some sort of hyperbolic reaction to all the anti-bf stuff that's come before. It's an advocates response....... just do 'this' & it will all be okay. well, like everything with parenting, it's usually not that easy.........


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I'll take a stab at the passion thing and the "to each their own" question because the milk bank subject has got me thinking about another factor.

First, let me say that "to each their own" doesn't really describe my feelings on this very well. When I see or hear something that I worry is hurtful I don't automatically think, "to each their own". What I *try* do is to be understanding and helpful and if I can't do that I'm usually judgmental but I try to avoid that. Like I said, I'm not perfect. (btw, if you feel humbled by my description of the activists I've met - good - so do I)

The reason I think understanding is so important to avoiding being judgmental is because I've read many times about people who were judgmental about this or that until they found themselves in the same situation - "walked a mile&#8230;" to me that is the ultimate way of understanding.

I do, however, take a major "to each their own" standpoint about isolated things that *I personally* feel are not harmful when factored into a basically positive parenting package. I don't know if you all know what I mean by this but one of my frustrations is when I feel that there is an over importance placed on isolated parenting choices. I truly think that children (and adults) are tremendously resilient - much more so than we give them credit for.

I wanted to talk a little about passion. I guess you could say that I'm generally less passionate than some people here. I've been in this place of, "The more I learn the less I know" for quite a while. I must say that I really don't mind it - it's a peaceful place for me to be because I feel I'm very open learning new things with this philosophy.

I think the passion thing has another element though. The political stuff plays a big role, imo. I can tell you that most people breastfeed in Germany, for instance. They also bank milk and "lending" milk is a common thing. My friends here don't understand my passion for breastfeeding because it's not a political issue for them - I'm not saying it shouldn't be but it just isn't.

I'm going to go back and read some more and come back later if DC is still sleeping&#8230;


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*I know for me, I chose to do the things I do b/c I felt it was absolutely in the best interests of my child's physical and emotional well-being. I don't consider it a "lifestyle choice".

&#8230;Anyways, I guess what I'm asking is: did most of us here choose to do the things we do (cosleeping, babywearing, GD, whatever) simply b/c we felt "hey, that fits me, that's conducive to my lifestyle"....was it that benign? For me, alot of it is much deeper than that. Maybe that is why some of us have an easier time being less judgemental than others. Maybe it has to do with the level of passion behind your choices...what do you think?*
I think you are on to something but I think maybe it has to do with a difference in what a person bases their choices on. Our family is not child centered (we're family centered). Maybe if I was (child centered) it would be harder for me to understand how anyone could choose based on different criteria.

I must confess though that most "AP" things actually did have the best fit with my lifestyle. I didn't struggle with the decision to have a HB, BFing came very easy for us, Babywearing works so well for us that I've often thought I would sling anyway even if it was discovered to be harmful, Co-sleeping is what works best for us, I'm against routine circumcision because it makes no sense to me but I'm humbled by the knowledge that I could have easily missed that one if I'd had a child earlier in my life (and with a different DH - who is passionately anti-cir), I struggled with CDing and I regret only making it to 8 months (I totally look forward to trying again now that I know more than white prefolds and plastic covers - my personal "justification" for my shortcoing), I do struggle with discipline but I am dedicated to doing an acceptable job and as of yet I haven't hit or totally lost it (although I work very hard)

I think I am humbled by the fact that I was lucky that some of these things came easy for me. I don't know what I would have "chosen" if I had been significantly challenged.

I also listed my "AP" credentials to counter this idea that you are only sensitive about how these issues are talked about if you aren't "comfortable in your skin". It isn't always about people reacting against their own insecurities, fyi.

Edited to clarify what I meant - I am no more and no less passionate, dedicated, and/or judgmental about GD, which is very challenging for me than, say BF, which came very easily for me. For me, it's not about how secure I am or whether or not I even practice something that makes me dedicated to supporting other parents.

Gotta go&#8230;DC's up and hungry.


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## daria (Feb 11, 2003)

I can answer the question as to why there isn't more donated milk available. First, most moms who pump amounts of significance are either exclusive pumpers (for health or latch issues) or working pumpers, meaning they are replacing nursing sessions with pumping sessions, which almost invariably has a bad effect on supply. So we are struggling to make enough for our own babies to eat and a little extra to freeze just in case. Second most of us are taking galactagogues of some sort, either "natural" like fenugreek or blessed thistle, or pharmaceutical like reglan or domperidone. Milk banks don't accept milk from mothers who have been using any of these substances in case the babies who need the milk might be sensitive. The milk has to be really "pure". A third issue for me is that I like a glass of wine or a cocktail now and then and I have no issue with nursing anyway, but this would not be appropriate to expose someone else's baby to. Fourth, even a fulltime SAHM would have to take time away from her baby to hook up to the pump, probably 20-30 minutes a day to get even a mere 4 ounces, if she's lucky, and most moms probably don't want to do that just for altruistic reasons. Since fifth, there is no compensation.

I have 180 ounces of milk in my freezer which sounds like a lot but works out to be only a little more than a 2-week supply if I were to stop pumping at work. It has taken me four months to build up that surplus, some of which is "tainted" with either fenugreek or domperidone, so none of it is donatable anyway. My goal is to quit pumping at one year and then give him the frozen milk until it runs out. I feel very possessive of that milk belonging to Isaac and I would not want to give it away even if there were no other contraindications to donating.

My hat is off to women who donate, I think it is admirable but it is far from being an easy thing to do.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

I wanted to address the idea that more passion=more judgement. This is only partly true, IMO. I am a very strong (might say militant) advocate for a certain cause (think the most hot-button debate in the US







- but I won't talk specifics as to land this thread in activism :LOL).

So, I am a very extreme advocate for this one cause- always have been. I have found that extreme passion/activism- goes through stages of growth. First- you get mad/upset/angry about said cause, next you get all kinds of judgemental, then you start to wonder what good your judgemental nature is doing







(I think this is what Identity Crisis mama has been trying to say)

Then- you say to yourself- if I want to make a difference- *I* need to understand where the other side is coming from, *I* need to see the other side as intelligent and thoughtful and treat them as such, *I* need to use the least insensitive/least inflammatory terms possible so that people hear me when I talk, and- I need to listen more. I have to remember the people who are hurt by said cause- I have to be careful not to hurt them more- I need to be available to help them- if they want/need my help. I need to educate those who are at risk, instead of preaching to the choir or beating up on those who can't go back and make a different choice/decision.

You see, when you REALLY feel strongly about something, you have to do what it takes to make actual change- which judgementalism/ harsh words/ and venting just doesn't do, YK?

It's not about thinking whatever anyone else says/does as being ok, it's about caring about the individuals and working to do what ACTUALLY helps the cause.

I am working on being better at this myself- I have found it's a process and takes time to mature into (that's why I'm not quite there yet







). For a different example- I only recently became angry about circumcision, I'm still in the judgemental/ rarely helping anyone stage, I want to move on with it to where I can still think it's absolutely wrong, but I can focus on the actual making a difference part, which is much more important than my anger which doesn't help anyone.

I am hoping at least part of that made some sense:LOL


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Oh my goodness, Jess7396 - are you me?! I feel that I could have written almost everything you wrote.

I wanted to address the more passion=more judgementalism issue as well, but there isn't any need - you've summed up what I had to say so articulately - thanks!

I think I've gone through this process with respect to breastfeeding. When dd1 was a baby, I could not fathom why anyone would even supplement with formula, much less formula feed all the time.

Several years (and a few







moments that were truly







) later, and I have realised that even this issue - which I once thought was so black and white, has shades of grey.

There are still situations that make me sad with respect to breast-feeding, and I still get very annoyed at formula companies, etc., etc. - but I'm learning that the way to make a difference isn't by ranting...

Jess7396 - I also just recently got angry about circumcision, and I can totally see that I'm in the unhelpful stage of being too angry/judgemental about the fact that circumcision is even allowed to be very helpful at giving parents the information they need to have in order to see clearly what is happening in RIC.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by jess7396_
*You see, when you REALLY feel strongly about something, you have to do what it takes to make actual change- which judgementalism/ harsh words/ and venting just doesn't do, YK?

It's not about thinking whatever anyone else says/does as being ok, it's about caring about the individuals and working to do what ACTUALLY helps the cause.
*
























Awesome! Now, I have to ask what your personal advocacy issue is because I couldn't get it from the hint.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

My sister told me she was a wet nurse in the 80s when she had her dc's. Im trying to get a hold of her to find out how that worked...... Ill get back...


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Slightly OT, but -

Back when I was pumping breast milk for Cole (I pumped exclusively and he got NO formula during that time - talk about exhausting) I had built up about 200 oz. of frozen milk, too. I used to pump ALL THE TIME because I was so afraid of losing my supply. That stuff was like gold to me. Then we had an ice storm and practically the whole city lost electricity, and all my frozen milk went to waste.


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by famousmockngbrd_
*Then we had an ice storm and practically the whole city lost electricity, and all my frozen milk went to waste.







*
OMG! I think I would have sat down and just bawled!


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

T I had a huge oversupply when Eli was small and would have been more than happy to donate milk; I even looked into it. The only problem is that the nearest milk bank was too far away for me to get to to be tested & to ship my milk to (would have cost me too much money.







) If I lived in North Carolina, I'd have been a champion pumper! And what's wrong with white prefolds & plastic covers? That's 80% of our system! :LOL

I still don't think that more passion = more judgement, but I do believe that more compassion = less judgement. This is a fabulous thread, it'll definately be one for the archives!







:LOL


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Rainsmom, I was not a wet nurse by any stretch of the imagination I have nursed other people's children. Also, DC has been nursed by another mother.

Famousmockngbrd, OMG! I'll bet your still cringe thinking about it. I remember reading about someone who had this happen last year at MDC - was that you?

Eilonwy, I hope you don't feel _judged_ by what I said white prefolds, LOL! :LOL

All I can say is that if I can work out some of my compulsive clothing shopping issues _and_ CD at the same time - I'd definitely have enough motivation to keep up with it.

I know what you mean about having too much milk and being frustrated because you were willing to donate and couldn't. I have a friend donating right now. I heard that in Germany if your supply is too large (common concern here) they just hook you right up to a pump for donations.

Anyone feel up for a discussion on ways they have practiced being non-judgmental - What has had an effect and what hasn't?

I wish the OP was here still because maybe she could have helped us learn how we could have responded to her better.

I'll share a story that happened recently.

DC had a huge (30 minute) tantrum while I was out in town. There was the added stress of me living in a new country where people tend to openly "tisk" at parents because of some random disapproval. Anyway we sat down in a small park so I could help her. Across the park, a police woman was walking by and I could just feel her eyes on me - making me even more stressed.

Anyway, I looked up to her and, much to my surprise; she was smiling the most understanding, compassionate smile down at me. The way she was looking at me she was telling me that she understood what I was going through and, more importantly, that I was doing a good job. We waved to each other and my stress melted away. She didn't need to judge me in order to help me. She didn't need to have strong feelings about how a person should handle a tantrum - she helped me by understanding what I was going through. She helped me that day by supporting me -and she helped my child through me.

I know this is a simple story but I truly believe that if we all practiced these small bits of kindness we could make a huge impact.

I have turely gotten a mental work out on this thread. I hope it carries on and that I can keep up even though my in-laws are coming today.

Anyway, talk to you later, Hannah


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

DD was about 8 months old when I saw the news story on our local channel about our milk bank (this was in Vancouver, BC) needing donations. It was the only one left in Canada, and therefore was only able to supply really sick and premature babies. I called in after the show - they were so overwhelmed with responses it took them many weeks to carry out the interview process. They asked me some basic health questions. They asked for a commitment of 100 oz in 3 months. There were several places around town to drop off the milk. Unfortunately, you have to be less than 1 year post-partum to donate (the fat content changes too much by then) and by the time I was all cleared, DD was 1!







But if I'm in Vancouver with this baby, I will definitely be a donor (barring any troubles that is).

I used to be one of those (completely naive and immature) people who would get aggravated at children being loud and having tantrums. Now that I'm a mother myself, I make a concerted effort to smile at any parent with a wailing or screaming child. Sometimes I worry that they might think I'm making light of things, but I"m trying to let them know "hey, we've all been there".

At the playground one day, there was a mum with a toddler and a young baby. The baby was stuck in his stroller alot while she tended to the toddler. I finally decided to go keep him company, rather than sit there and judge her for not having the brains (or perhaps physical ability?) to use a sling. And while I played, I listened to the mother dealing with her cranky toddler. She was wonderful. So calm and reassuring and validating and everything I wanted to be when my child was older and acting like that. I got the feeling that she was feeling self-concious, maybe she's been criticized for not being "firmer"...so I went and told her how much I admired how she had handled it all, and that I thought she was setting a wonderful example. She really lit up after I said that. I felt good about that.

Gee, isn't this getting warm and fuzzy?









[i'm definitely archiving this one!]


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## dancingmama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by IdentityCrisisMama_
[
Anyone feel up for a discussion on ways they have practiced being non-judgmental - What has had an effect and what hasn't?
]
I've been following this thread with varying emotions, but I like the turn it has taken, and I wanted to respond to this question/comment.

I make up stories.

Honestly. I figure that each of us has an ongoing train of "self-talk" that, if we are honest, is based on our very personal PERCEPTION of what is occuring in the world around us. That perception is wildly affected by all sorts of things.... our history, our experiences, our personalities, what happened to us that morning, 2 minutes ago, 30 seconds ago. So if my self-talk begins "ugh, look at that mama, how can she be ignoring that little babe in that carseat thing? pick him up! pick him up!" And IF I am in good mental space and able to be generous (which I continually strive for but of course don't always succeed), I literally make up a story that allows me to have more compassion for her. Because the truth is, my story (my current/inital/gut reaction story) is just as made up as the one I make up on purpose. So I tell myself "she has a colicky baby and she holds him all the time, but right now she has just put him down so she can get through the checkout line and in reality, he'd still be crying if she were holding him.... etc etc." Because what's to say that my initial judgemental reaction has anything to do with the truth?

Anyway, it helps me have more compassion and not be so angry all the time.

I can completely relate to the discussion of the "stages" one goes through in becoming an "activist." There are still times when I feel such white-blinding rage at the Bush administration, environmental set-backs, etc, that I can't even have a reasonably intelligent conversation about it. Talk about ineffective.

Thanks for this thread mamas


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by IdentityCrisisMama_
*Famousmockngbrd, OMG! I'll bet your still cringe thinking about it. I remember reading about someone who had this happen last year at MDC - was that you?*
Possibly - it did happen last year. And yeah, it does still make me cringe and yeah, I did sit down and bawl! That was such a hard time, it's like my whole memory of it is shrouded in darkness. Maybe because it really WAS dark because we were without power for 9 days in the dead of winter! LOL

This thread has really taught me a lot.









One thing I do to keep from being judgemental is I remind myself that everyone is an ex-child. Since becoming a mother myself, I find that if I try to look at everyone as having once been a little child in the arms of their mother, it makes me treat them more gently. I know I wouldn't want someone to ever treat MY child harshy, even if it's just thinking harsh things about them, and I feel like I'm doing some unknown mother a favor by being kind to her child, if that makes any sense.


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## thinkingcapp (Jul 30, 2003)

Before I had Jack, I would judge parents harshly whose kids were loud, crying, etc. I used to think, "That person needs to get some parenting lessons!" Now when I see a crying child in a public situation I feel nothing but empathy for the parent. Experience has been a wise teacher for me. I think that is the one thing that has helped me be less judgemental: that I used to have such very strong unwavering beliefs about what I would never accept as a parent... and now I have been humbled by the reality of being one.
Of course, there are still some parenting behaviors I find unacceptable... but in the general sense, I try to be understanding first and judgemental last.


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## lunchbox (May 14, 2003)

OT but re: EBM - I had over 100 oz in the chest freezer in the garage. Hubby had to use the table saw and unplugged the freezer. He forgot to plug it back in and I lost my entire stash. This happened not once but TWICE! Believe it or not, we are still married. Since we never used bottles, it didn't matter that much but still.....

And everytime I see a mom feeding a baby formula, I tell myself that the baby was adopted and that relactation didn't work out for her.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

I'm not trying to be mean but I sought out this board because I wanted support in ap parenting and all that encompasses. I'm tired of reading the mainstream magazines like parenting or american baby and the likes that all address only your type of parenting.

I think most folks are here because of a strong belief that the way we choose to raise our children is the right way. The right way for us and we wish the right way for others too. It's a place to find support and ideas outside the mainstream.

If you don't want to be judged or whatever for your parenting style maybe YOU need to find a mainstream parenting board to support YOUR decisions. check out ivillage.com.

Kimberley


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Today I saw a mom at the Zoo... at the playground of all places in a stroller (yes, I used a stroller and my Kozy both, so revoke my MDC membership







). I kept hearing the baby cry and the mom was ignoring her. At one point, even I could tell the toddler's cry had changed and it turned out that the sunshade on the stroller had fallen and the poor kid's head was stuck. As I opened my mouth to yell and warn the mom, she finally quit







to the other mom and noticed her daughter's predicament. She fixed the sunshade and went back to her conversation while the toddler fussed in the stroller some more.

I'm glad to be back "home".


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by jess7396_
*...Then- you say to yourself- if I want to make a difference- *I* need to understand where the other side is coming from, *I* need to see the other side as intelligent and thoughtful and treat them as such, *I* need to use the least insensitive/least inflammatory terms possible so that people hear me when I talk, and- I need to listen more. I have to remember the people who are hurt by said cause- I have to be careful not to hurt them more- I need to be available to help them- if they want/need my help. I need to educate those who are at risk, instead of preaching to the choir or beating up on those who can't go back and make a different choice/decision.

You see, when you REALLY feel strongly about something, you have to do what it takes to make actual change- which judgementalism/ harsh words/ and venting just doesn't do, YK?...*
Thank you so much for sharing this. You said so clearly something I have been trying to articulate for a long time (both to others and myself!) Thank you!


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## Cakes (Jul 30, 2002)

QUOTE]_Originally posted by Piglet68_
[At the playground one day, there was a mum with a toddler and a young baby. The baby was stuck in his stroller alot while she tended to the toddler. I finally decided to go keep him company, rather than sit there and judge her for not having the brains (or perhaps physical ability?) to use a sling. And while I played, I listened to the mother dealing with her cranky toddler. She was wonderful. So calm and reassuring and validating and everything I wanted to be when my child was older and acting like that. I got the feeling that she was feeling self-concious, maybe she's been criticized for not being "firmer"...so I went and told her how much I admired how she had handled it all, and that I thought she was setting a wonderful example. She really lit up after I said that. I felt good about that.
[/QUOTE]

I really LOVE people who help me in this way. It is so much more productive then "judging". I have had some horrifyng experiences in public places and some terrifyng near misses on the playground. They always ended in a very postive manner when people helped out in the simplest way. I am a huge advocate of extending myself to assist a frazzled parent. I have never been rebuked or told to go away.

I really enjoy it when peole put their money where their mouth is.

By the way, what is so horrible about strollers? I could not possibly keep my twins safe without one! Do I get "judged" by other AP moms for using it? I never knew it was not AP to use a stroller. I learn something new everyday.

I could not master the sling with twins. I know some ladies have but only to a certain point. My children have been very entertained by the outside world in their side by side stroller. I wouldn't dream of giving it up.

OMG , just realized I actually own three double strollers.......shall I resign my Mothering subscription:LOL

Julianne


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

nm


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Julianne, having a stroller is only non-ap if you've got singletons. :LOL Even the crunchiest parents don't expect you to sling twins for too long!







:


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

I guess maybe I totally misjudged the situation, but I was only about 8 feet away and she was chatting with her friend with her back to the poor toddler.









I guess I should turn in my MDC membership, I have two singletons... a 3yo who can run like the wind and an almost 1yo who is learning to walk.







: I took the stroller to carry our water bottles and gear... and my fair-skinned ds napped in the shade of the stroller. And one time when my dd ran away from me and I almost didn't catch her, she had to ride in the stroller for a couple minutes. For her safety!

I should let my ds sunburn I guess in the name of being AP? Or let dd run away from me and disappear into a crowd? Or is a harness more AP than a stroller? No, we decided doing what's best for baby is AP!


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## Cakes (Jul 30, 2002)

I also use my stroller as a pack mule! Isn't it great how the bottom can hold six sippy cups, a very large diaper bag, a back pack full of little trains, a yellow ball, a stuffed bunny, pb&j for four, three pints of strawberries, two milk boxes, everyones art work from school.............
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by jess7396
...Then- you say to yourself- if I want to make a difference- *I* need to understand where the other side is coming from, *I* need to see the other side as intelligent and thoughtful and treat them as such, *I* need to use the least insensitive/least inflammatory terms possible so that people hear me when I talk, and- I need to listen more. I have to remember the people who are hurt by said cause- I have to be careful not to hurt them more- I need to be available to help them- if they want/need my help. I need to educate those who are at risk, instead of preaching to the choir or beating up on those who can't go back and make a different choice/decision.

You see, when you REALLY feel strongly about something, you have to do what it takes to make actual change- which judgementalism/ harsh words/ and venting just doesn't do, YK?...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I really liked this !!!!!!
Thanks jess7396 for the words of wisdom.

Julianne


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

I also use my stroller as a pack mule!










i thought we might be the only ones who did this...







we actually use it as kind of a cart, because we walk to the store (instead of driving), and we use the stroller to bring the groceries home in.







we've gotten some odd looks while out walking with this stroller laden with cloth bags filled with veggies + whole grains, and the boy (who is "supposed" to be sitting in the stroller) instead helping push.


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## Stacymom (Jul 7, 2002)

I've been following this thread with a lot of interest, and have really enjoyed the mental muscle flexing it's given me! I find myself guilty of judging alot, even thought I don't necessarily have the most "AP" of "AP" credentials. And yesterday, at a LLL meeting of all places, I felt like the coin was turned. My two and a half year old dd, who normally loves meetings and begs to go, was completely out of control during the meeting. The girls she normally plays with weren't there, and she really wasn't doing very well. It seemed like every little thing set her off and she was whining and fussing. At one point she left the room while my back was turned and ended up pulling videos off the shelf, (we meet at the library) and the best moment of the meeting was when she decided to go out the emergency exit and then set off the alarm! All this time I'm trying to also watch and entertain my nine month old. We should have left, but I'm in charge of the huge toy bucket that belongs to my group, and making all the kids give back their toys and clean up would have been more disruption than my dd's were being! I really felt some critical stares, and I was doing the very best that I could to handle the situation gracefully! I mean, I only have two hands, and can only run in one direction at a time!

And maybe they weren't judging me or frustrated with my kids- maybe I was just feeling hyper-sensitive. But I really wish that someone would have held my baby and kept her entertained while I ran after Abby, or at least wouldhave shot me a sympathetic glance instead of the stink-eyes.







I've been thinking it and this thread ever since, and resolved to be better about my snap judgements.

I tell ya, if I had a dollar for everytime I had a screamer at a grocery store... :LOL


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## Cakes (Jul 30, 2002)

Stacymom,

What if the next time you find yourself in this situation you reach out and make the first move...........ask someone (maybe the person with the "stinkiest " look) to hold the nine month old! Then you will be able to take "control" of your older child and the other person will feel like they have been helpful.

I found myself in these types of situations often and still do. At first it took alot of courage to admit my vunerability and to ask for help. Once again, I have never been rebuked or turned down.

Personally I would LOVE to hold a nine month old! I am never sure if the Mom in need is comfortable with me holding the baby but we'll never know if we don't ask.

Julianne


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## Proudmomoftwinsplusone (Feb 21, 2004)

someone made a comment about formula feeding mothers being able to leave at the drop of a hat. i havent left the house at the drop of a hat since my twins were born.







:


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Proudmomoftwins_
*someone made a comment about formula feeding mothers being able to leave at the drop of a hat. i havent left the house at the drop of a hat since my twins were born.







:*
That's strange... I feel like I could *only* leave the house at the drop of a hat because Eli was nursing; all I had to do was grab his Babyness and a diaper and go.


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## carmen veranda (Jan 27, 2003)

How interesting this thread is.

In my 20 years of parenting I have co-slept, not, ff, breast fed, vaxed, not, stollered, slinged, WOH, SAH, I guess just about the whole spectrum except CIO, (A crying baby just rattles me. I can't do anything with such a frightening noise going on), and circ'ed, (I have all girls).
I love MDC. I have never felt judgement about anything here. I hear people saying "don't flame me, " I have never seen an out and out flame. I am a member of my home newspaper forum. Flames? We got 'em. So, I am sorry to those, including the OP, whom I think left long ago, who have felt somehow dissed here. Mothering mag and MDC have helped me grow as a mother more than anything else, except my children. If someone says something negative about ff, I just can't see how that hurts me. I supplimented with my first baby. She died of SIDS. I wish I had known better, but I don't feel attacked because someone says formula is not the best choice, if one has the choice to make. Could have exclusive breast feeding saved her life? Maybe? I don't think so, but that's just the thing about SIDS. No one knows for sure. I was a mostly SAH mom, except for some fill-in work at the library. She died while I was working 4 hours for this first time in weeks and weeks. At the neighbors. Did me leaving her have something to do with it? Maybe? Does that make me feel bad when people say that moms should not leave their babies? No. I made those choices with what information I had at the time, and with the realities and daily living that were in my life at the time. There is no going back to do it over. My third baby gave up on nursing at 3 months. I think it's because I worked too much, but my situation demanded that I do so. I ff after that. Someone making a judgement about the ignorance of ff has nothing to do with my situation. I had to do what I did to feed my baby, AND the rest of my family. It is no insult to me for someone to say that breast feeding is so much better than FF. I know this. It does not insult me. I have kids in day care and the day care did not take cloth diapers. It is no reflection on me and my family when someone says plastic diapers are poisening us all. I clothed at home and did the best I could with buying the least noxious diaper I could find/afford. There are realities in everyone's life that somewhat dictate our choices. If you couldn't or didn't bf, it doesn't mean you are/were a bad mom. It just means you did the best you could with the situation and the INFORMATION you had. There a generally two components to making choices. What we HAVE to choose to meet our food/clothing/shelter/belonging needs and what we have LEARNED to choose. I want to buy a new car. It has to be big enough for all of us to ride in, even though I really want a Miata. So, (money being no object) I could go get the biggest baddest SUV in the land and have a big enough (and then some) car. OR, I could educate myself and perhaps look into buying one of those hybrids that do a little bit to help cut down on the noxiousness of owning and operating a internal combustion engine. Mothering and MDC have been such great resources in my education as a mom as to what is out there. I had never heard of lotus birth, for instance. Here is where the passion comes in.
Laugh all you want. I truly believe we can save this world one baby at a time. I believe that if children are honored while in the womb, at birth, as infants and while growing at all stages, then the hate in this world will diminish little by little. By every loving parenting act we do, we are saving the world. Everytime we make a choice for our children, that is within our possibilites to make, that honors, respects and loves them on every level, then we are saving the world. So I don't see how we can just be quiet and live and let live. I don't mean going around and pointing fingers, I mean educating and loving people to do the best they can. If not for Mothing and MDC I would have had very different children and they would have had a very different mother. Because of my education I made choices that I have been judged for by people who make different parenting choice than I do, but those choices have enhanced our lives so much. Just not having a medicated birth made such a difference to this mom when she was young and scared. Talk about power. If I could let myself go into labor armed with just love and determination and fight off epidurals and pain meds and discomfort and fear, then I could do anything. So I can't shut up and live and let live when I hear people talking about checking in the hospital and getting hooked up on the epidural and watching TV through labor. (Disclaimer-If you had pain meds and needed that for you, then please don't be hurt. I am saying that if one never wants to experience the transformation that birthing can bring, then perhaps they are not making an very informed choice, not to mention the effects on the baby....blah blah blah...) I can't just shut up and listen to someone talk about smacking the butts or pulling the hair to show their toddlers that is not ok. But will I try to imagine that we are all doing the best we know how to do? You bet. Will I try to assume that even the mom with kool-aide propped in the bucket for a little baby loves her baby Sure she does. Will I get all high horsey about, "what the heck are feeding that poor thing? You should be ashamed." Nope. I comment on how beautiful she is and how much she must be loved. How hard it is to be a mom and have to go shopping, Has she ever seen a sling? Then the baby wouldn't need to be a propped up in the bucket. blah blah blah.... Or I just shut up and smile and send as much positive energy out to the family as I can and fix my kids some broccoli. And hug them. And take the few extra minutes that I don't have just then and listen to the whole story. And cuddle up with them and drift off to sleep together...
This is so long I forgot my point....


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

That was beautiful Carmen!

I haven't been around in a couple of days and I like the turn that this thread has taken!

My quick story of educating! The other day I was at a friend's house. Her dd is 3 days older than my ds. Well, she asked me why I don't 'pop my son'. Instead of giving my long lecture about the mental anguish that spanking can cause (because I know that these parents do spank their 14 month old baby), I simply said "We don't spank because all that teaches is that hitting is ok. Then the baby begins to hit too." Well about 10 minutes later her dd kept hitting my ds. My friend said "OMG, I taught her that." I think that they still pop sometimes, but nowhere as near as much and hopefully one day, she will not spank at all.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by eilonwy_
*That's strange... I feel like I could *only* leave the house at the drop of a hat because Eli was nursing; all I had to do was grab his Babyness and a diaper and go.







*
Maybe they meant leave the house at a drop of the hat _without_ the baby.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by pugmadmama_
*Maybe they meant leave the house at a drop of the hat without the baby.*






















Why would anyone want to do that? :LOL







: (sorry, couldn't resist!)


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Carmen, that was such a wonderful post. Thank you for validating my own experiences that other peoples' feelings about choices I may have made or not made don't bother me. I wish it were true for everybody here, simply because I hate seeing people get hurt!

I also really, really resonated with what you said about "changing the world one baby at a time". I've never been an optimist, I consider myself a realist, but there is one "real" thing I cannot deny - there are so many wounded children out there walking around as dysfunctional, hurtful, toxic adults. Every mother we see hitting her child, or screaming and swearing at her toddler, is a very wounded child who was hit and screamed at herself as a child. The violence and hatred in this world is the "acting out" of adults who, as children, were not loved or respected or validated.

I honestly believe that if all the world's babies were AP'd, that this world would be a much better place. It's impossible and useless to finger any individual mama, or parenting practice, but when I look at the big picture, I cannot help but see how much nicer a place this world would be if all babies could snuggle up next to their mamas warm bodies all night, if they were held close all day, and mostly, if they were raised with understanding, with respect, and without this concept of "punishment".

We can dream, right?


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

So true! I was watching Dateline last night, and they were doing something on Columbine, 5yr anniversary. I cant believe its been that long. BUt at the time, there was SO much of it on tv, that I only took in the basic info. So to see all this footage of them planning this out, to hear about their family life, about other families who had called authorites to get something done.....
And watching this I started wondering.......how were these boys raised? How did they possibly end up this way? Why werent the parents clued in?

Im not trying to change the topic here.......but to just share my thoughts that if more parents APd......well, something has got to change.....todays youth and events of Columbine are a result of parenting gone wrong. IMHO.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Yes, it would be wonderful if all the parents in the world had the support they needed to parent in a positive way.


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## sleepies (Nov 30, 2001)

if you take the baby with you "at the drop of a hat" , doesn't matter if you nurse or use bottles,

heck, nursing would even be faster to leave home...as you wouldn't have to "pack" the milk.


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## carmen veranda (Jan 27, 2003)

Piglet...
















I agree. We could all use a bit more support, I am sure.


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## sleepies (Nov 30, 2001)

i tried parentsplace

that thing is NOT MAINSTREAM.

oh my goodness.

in some ways this is more mainstream!

WOW

anyway, not only were they not mainstream, they were pretty hateful.


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## Proudmomoftwinsplusone (Feb 21, 2004)

i am trying to find the quote someone made about formula feeding moms leaving the house at the drop of a hat, but i cant find it becuase my husband wont stop distracting me. anyways, the implication was ...i dont even remember. i just felt like it was implied that i dont feel connected with the boys and feel free to up and leave. i dont leave the house until they are happy, fed and diapered ...i am rambling...no hard feelings...it seems silly now.


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## Proudmomoftwinsplusone (Feb 21, 2004)

i meant leave the house without the boys.


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## carmen veranda (Jan 27, 2003)

gottcha...


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## sleepies (Nov 30, 2001)

i understand your feelings

i only bottle fed.

also, i never went anywhere until he was fed and happy, clean , diapered, etc

only time i did go anywhere was when my DH could watch him.

which, i feel he is my equal.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I think the point was....if an exclusively BFing mom wants a few hours/days away from her baby, there's a good chance she CANNOT take that opportunity b/c she is BFing. OTOH, if a FF mom wants to get away from baby, it's a non-issue since anybody can feed the baby.

I'm not saying FF moms want to be away from their babes, or that BFing moms don't, or making any judgement on moms who want to get away. Just saying that, even if you DID want to get away, an exclusively BFing mom will be limited in her ability to do so.


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Well, it is used as an excuse not to bf all the time. "I want to formula feed so my dh can take night feedings" or "I like to go out on the weekends".









Of course, that is generalizing and certainly not the reason all bottle fed babies are not breastfed.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*I think the point was....if an exclusively BFing mom wants a few hours/days away from her baby, there's a good chance she CANNOT take that opportunity b/c she is BFing. OTOH, if a FF mom wants to get away from baby, it's a non-issue since anybody can feed the baby.*








I didn't take much time without Eli, but I certainly had the opportunity to do so.. I could pump a bottle or two (or eight.. huge oversupply







: ) and go out for an hour or whatever and just walk around Borders or AC Moore if I really needed some time to myself (and I did, I think that most mothers do). I never felt that I was trapped or forced into taking Eli everywhere with me just because we were (exclusively) nursing. After I got my period back doing all the 'right' things at 3.5 weeks, I figured I may as well enjoy the opportunities that pumping afforded me.


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