# Tantrums worldwide?



## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

Anyone know anything about whether it is uncommon for toddlers to tantrum in certain cultures? It seems like such an odd thing to me. I've heard that there are cultures in which babies seldom cry (and Simon was like this, for the most part), so I guess I'm just hoping that we can avoid tantrums too! He's 14 months old.

Here's my gut feelings: In some cultures, toddlers spend their time watching a lot of business, going for long walks b/c of errands (getting water), and are still carried quite a bit. I know that Simon is 1000 times happier when this type of thing is what is happing in his life than if we sit around the house all day long and he stares at the same confined space. It also seems that other cultures don't have nearly as much stuff -- like delicate tech gadgets -- to attract the child in the first place. If I have to take something away from Simon in a busy, somewhat unfamiliar place, he accepts it far more easily than if I have to do so here. In a larger and more interesting place, there are other items and goings on to catch his attention.

So is this wishful thinking? I know I don't live in the type of situation I have in mind, but we can increase our outings and general business (so that we typically go out 2 or more times, or one longish outing, each day).


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## earthymamajessi (Jun 1, 2005)

So Simon is only 14 months old and he doesn't seem to be prone to tantrums yet? I hope for your sanity that he doesn't switch to "terrible two" mode like mine did a month ago! He was a sweet little guy and all of a sudden he has been going ballistic in public and making it difficult to get anything achieved with him.
I loved your comments about tantrums around the world. I think you're onto something about keeping kids out of small boring spaces, hiding remotes and phones, and getting back to simplicity. There are obvious dangers in nature, but generally it's okay to play with what's lying around (as apposed to the cell phone which might cost mucho bucks to replace if it's tossed into the lake!)
We go for walks and work in the garden together, and his best days are the ones where I wear him out by playing in "safe places." When we stay in our tiny apartment, we both go nuts.
Mine is 22 months, and it was about a month ago that he turned into a different kind of kid. Wow! What a change! Any advice for handling tantrums?


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## Juniper (Apr 20, 2004)

Interesting topic. Other cultures are less obsessed with time & strict schedules, too. Bet that helps. I look forward to hearing others' responses.

Jennifer


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Good luck







Carrying and avoiding gadgets didn't help my daughter. She outgrew them for the most part. It might be more about temperment than anything.

Promise me you won't beat yourself up and think you're a bad mom if your child has tantrums though. Some kids just do. All you can do if you have a child who is prone to tantrums is to love him through them.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I think getting sad and/or frustrated is part of being human. Maybe some things vary by degrees.


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## twostraightlines (Aug 28, 2004)

This is an interesting subject. My son is 17 months and never has tantrums in public, but does have mild ones occasionally at home. His mainly come from me not giving him an object he wants (I usually let him explore objects with me, but things like sharp knives are not allowed!). He also doesn't like being moved from one area of the house to another if he is not ready, but sometimes I am tired of hanging out in the upstairs hallway while he flips the lightswitch for the 40th time and I want a snack from the kitchen, lol.

I do think that they like the stimulation of being out in the world, seeing things and interacting with people. My son loves it!

I doubt that gd will prevent tantrums entirely, but it will make them less often and less severe, I hope!


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

: Interesting topic...


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

I am reading "Teach Your Own" and he talks about a man taking a trip to China to learn about education. He asked what they did about bullying, tantrums, back talk, etc. He was told that it is not a problem there. The author went on to say that we have these problems because we expect them. In China, they simply tell their children that is not done, and that is the end of it.

Personally, I think that is crap. Their children are having all their emotional needs met, are not experiencing developmental challenges, and if they do a simple, "We don't do that" will suffice? Baloney. I think that in cultures where children are routinely subjected to coporal punishment, they have fewer tantrums. Why? Fear. I doubt these cultures have any respect for children or their emotions. Children learn early to keep themselves in line or face violence.

We had no tantrums until about two months before my son turned three. The 2s were heaven. The 3s are trying. Of course we added a new family member, so I think it is more because of the baby than anything.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I think it is dangerous to play anthropologist in this context. Some of these generalizations lean toward essentializing "other cultures", none of which have actually been named in this thread with the exception of annab's mention of China.

Annab-- is that the book by John Holt? I haven't read it, but I've heard that example used before and I tend to agree with you. I think it is crap.

My oldest child threw a total of two actual tantrums in his entire toddlerhood. My 3yo throws them almost daily. My 16mo old seems to have a temperament similar to that of my oldest, so the jury is still out on her. I think a lot of it has to do with temperament. I'm not sure that what people in "other cultures" do is all that relevant considering we live in our culture, not an"other" one.


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

It is by Holt and the newer version, updated by Farenga (sp?).


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## Alexander (Nov 22, 2001)

We have never had a tantrum from either of our children.

We never told our children what to do all the time either. We made a safe environment, and let them loose.

And involved them, in everything.

a


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

I believe it is the temperament of the child. My DD almost never cried as a baby - as long as she was being held. Now put her down to go to the bathroom, OTOH, and that was a completely different story.







Honestly though, we could sometimes go an entire week without her crying a single time, as long as we held her constantly. Then suddenly one day, she started crying about everything. She wants what she wants and she wants it now and if she doesn't get it, she will scream, cry, arch her back if you're holding her, roll around on the floor if you're not, etc. This started at 11 months and I have to admit, I get a little upset when people try to claim it has something to do with my parenting.

On the one side, I've got people telling me she's used to getting what she wants all the time, so she's learned to scream when she doesn't get her way. On the other side, I've got more baby-friendly people claiming that if I held her more often, made her environment more friendly or something else, she wouldn't need to throw tantrums. It's frustrating. My house is babyproofed and I let her get into literally everything that's safe. I hold her as much as she wants to be held. I involve her in everything. I wear her in the Sutemi while I clean or when we shop. I take her for walks in the stroller every day it doesn't rain because she prefers the stroller for walks. I hand her every object she wants to look at. The kid is getting plenty of love and attention and her environment is NOT frustrating! She is just a persistent kid with a low tolerance for frustration.

For example, a couple weeks ago she saw the empty dish detergent bottle on the counter and reached for it. I had already rinsed it out for recycling, so I gave it to her to play with while I supervised. She was thrilled and banged it around for a few minutes, before suddenly throwing it down and screaming. She picked it up, looked at it, threw it down again, then threw herself onto the floor face down and started crying almost hysterically. I tried to pat her back and she rolled away. She picked up the bottle again, handed it to me, I couldn't figure out what she wanted and she threw herself onto the floor again, crying some more. I tried to remove her from the room, but she wouldn't let me pick her up. I put the bottle where she couldn't see it, thinking that would help, but it made her cry even harder, so I got it back out. I gave it to her and tried to ask her what she wanted and talk soothingly to her, but she threw it on the floor and cried even harder. This all went on for about ten minutes, before I finally realized she wanted me to take the cap off. I took the cap off, handed it to her and the crying stopped instantly. My point is that, short of being a mind reader, there was nothing in this situation that I could have done differently to prevent the meltdown. I gave her what she originally asked for and supervised to make sure it was safe. I tried to help her when she got frustrated by talking calmly to her, trying to rub her back, attempting to remove her from what I *thought* was the source of her frustration or remove the source from her. Nothing worked until I finally figured out the problem. And all of this happened when she had a full belly and wasn't tired. It's just her personality.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I don't think we should be so fearful of normal human emotions or tears. Children and adults alike should be able to express their feelings. Crying can be cathartic, even for children. It's OK to cry! There is a range of 'normal' human emotion--and I don't think we should be disrespectful of that. Range means the meter is not always stuck on 'bliss'.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

I think tantrums (in our culture) are pretty much a temperament thing. My dd started with them at 11 months (early) and has had a lot of them- even over stuff I couldn't give her if I wanted to (like imaginary friends becomming real.)

One thing, for my dd, is if she could stay naked and around the house all day it would cut down heavily on her frustration. She would probably also be a littl happier if she had other kids to play with all day- but that is not a 100% guartantee about tantrums.

She still gets upset playing with other kids. She also still gets upset naked around the house sometimes, I'm just saying it might cut down.


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## bu's mama (Mar 25, 2004)

I don't have time for a long reply but I wanted to suggest the Continuum Concept by Jean Leidoff (sp?). I read it while pregnant & just picked it up again (dd is 3). The author is an anthropologist who studied a tribe in S. America & noted the lack of crying & tantrums in their children. There is a website where you can do some reading (I don't have it handy, just google it) & there have been a few threads about it here on MDC.

I'll try to come back later & post some more.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

since i was raised in a different culture i can see why children in other cultures dont cry or tantrum much. more hands. as simple as that. u always have attention from various age groups (which makes a huge difference) when u need it and because u r in a group u tend to behave like in a group too. if u fall ur mom is not the only one to comfort u. for an infant more experienced moms can tell when a child is tired and put them to bed immediately. or as a toddler the child can go sleep with whomever he pleases - grandparent or uncle.

does that mean they never tantrum, never cry. of course not. that is a temperament thing. but say u r at the store and ur child wants to run around. u have limited time so u cannot go where he wants to go. now if u had a friend with u they both could toddle off and explore while u shop in peace. so when u have more hands there is less reason to tantrum.

also tantrums are sings of frustration. if u have a v. high energy physically active child who enjoys callenges and u keep saying no jumping on the couch, no dont do that and yet u dont really allow any outlet like going to the park that is enough for the child --- hello u r in trouble.

i feel one of the worst things that progress has created is the nuclear family. children are not meant to be raised alone. not even the shy child, the loner child. i see my dd losing out on so much that i took for granted as a child.

the main thing that happens is if the personality of the parents and the child dont mesh, then there is always guidance from somewhere. if the parent does not rise to the ocassion then the child can seek someone he prefers.

for children an extended family is great. for adults it is really hard. too much politics. for adults a nuclear family works out better. but for young children and older people - an extended family is irreplaceable. it honestly takes a village to raise a child.


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## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

Now that you mention it...since I have been living in Malaysia, and visited Thailand and Indonesia, I don't think I have ever seen a local kid having a tantrum. It's nothing more than anecdotal evidence- interesting though.
Local people who have witnessed my son's tantrums, reacted by immediately giving him what he wanted/letting him do what he wanted or, if they didn't know what it was, they'd give him candy or a treat. (He got a big ice cream, before his lunch, at a restaurant in Bangkok, for pitching a fit when they brought him his iced tea. A drink he had ordered.)


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

I find it hard to believe that no matter where you are on the globe, an exhausted, overstimulated 20 month old, when given a popsicle and then suddenly had it taken away, would not throw a tantrum. but that's just me.


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## Chele (Nov 24, 2004)

I think that your response meemee was very thoughtfull and clearly stated. I have often thought that moms in particular have lost a lot with this whole nuclear family set up, but now that you mention it the kids have lost a lot too. We do live in a way that I believe makes things harder on all of us, having lost our extended families. My husband and I have lived far away from any of our family since we were married. Having our son with no one around to help was hard, now of course family makes visits to help but the constant support has never been there. I am envious of those who have family around all the time. I just think of an evening when dh has just come home from work and is wiped, I am trying to cook dinner and ds just wants some attention, someone to play with him. This is when it can get tough, some one has to give. And just as a toddler may throw a tantrum, honestly sometimes I would like to as well. Now my ds has never had one and he is almost 2, so I consider myself lucky to have a pretty mellow guy, but there are situations when I could see how a toddler with a little less tolerance would lose it. I just think of how I feel sometimes trying to do some many things with so few hands.


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## quaz (May 24, 2005)

part of it is temperment

I have a dd that didn't tantrum until past 2
I have a hn, intense, persistent dd who started tatrums at 6m.

the other part is lack of help for the family...mine tantrum less when there are more hands to help

the other part is lack of sleep...my oldest tantrums b/c she isn't napping well, which if i had an extra set of hands, instead of me and two kids 16.5m apart... I'd be able to get her to sleep

The other part is just I think we have more 'stuff' we don't want kids to get into, than some other cultures.

Tammy


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Teenagers are crazy everywhere.

I bet toddlers are too.









Certain life stages are more tumultuous than others.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I think any child/person stressed out can throw tantrums. One of my dad’s friend brought a Vietnamese family over this guy talks about how the child cried for a month.


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## MamaE (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee*
i feel one of the worst things that progress has created is the nuclear family. children are not meant to be raised alone. not even the shy child, the loner child.
...
for children an extended family is great. for adults it is really hard. too much politics. for adults a nuclear family works out better. but for young children and older people - an extended family is irreplaceable. it honestly takes a village to raise a child.

ITA with this and I have thought a lot about this as well. I believe the invention of the nuclear family and, in particular, in this country, the geographical distance between the nuclear family and the extended family is the reason why many women choose not to practice Attachment Parenting. I don't condone CIO in any way, but when they are alone all day long with no help, I think many women can't see another way at night - they simply have nothing left to give (or feel they have nothing, anyway). I know CIO is mainstream too and some are just doing it because that's what everyone else is doing, but I still think parenting styles evolved out of so-called self preservation. When you have only 2 hands, what's a girl to do? That said, DH and I both live far from our families. We are all alone in this town, and I AP - night and day. But, I admit, sometimes I find myself totally exhausted and drained and just yearning for the type of culture where the women would congregate all day long and just share childcare. Where if my toddler needed something, there were 20 other hands to say "here you go, sweetie." I also think that in this type of culture, women would teach other women how to mother, by example. We don't have that here. You go home from the hospital and you're on your own. You can either parent the way your parents did, the way (you think) your friends do, or find your own way (that's what I ended up doing - amen for MDC!!!!).

But, I digress. I know someone else mentioned Leidloff's Continuum Concept and that is exactly what I thought of when I saw the OP. I wondered if this idea that children don't tantrum in other cultures came from that book? Personally, I liked the book, but I don't consider it to be scientific in any way. It's an anecdote and has to be taken as such. Leidloff claims that the Yequana (I think?) children don't tantrum or exhibit the normal toddlerisms that American kids do. OK, maybe so, but one culture, one woman's observations? Maybe that culture is an anomaly. Maybe they all possess the "laid back" gene. Who knows? Or, maybe it's because childcare is shared there, probably all day (and night) long. I can't imagine there are many cultures like that left. The nuclear family has become the norm and so, I would guess tantrums are the norm as well.

I also agree that tantrums are an aspect of temperament. I think most moms would be horrified to be told that their child tantrums because of something they are doing or not doing in raising them. Just the number of posts about tantrums I see in the GD forum from AP moms who presumably bend over backwards to meet their children's needs tells me that they are part and parcel of toddlerhood - and I would think that's true the world over.

Interesting topic!!


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

I wonder if we all mean roughly the same thing by the word "tantrum." It just seems so sad and strange to me that it is normal for someone to be prone to hysterical wailing, kicking, thrashing, screaming and the like -- often several times each day. Something just seems wrong with this. It just seems so extreme to me. Maybe once in a rare while, but for this to happen frequently? Over minor upsets even? Something just seems wrong there. That is my gut response. Perhaps it will change as I live and learn.

I have absolutely no problem with healthy emotions or with crying. I don't try to stifle Simon's cries, though I do try to prevent unnecessary crying and melt-downs. I guess that's what I'm getting at. Are tantrums the result of too much built up stress and an environment that is lacking something important for the child (which I would guess are things such as variety, space, nature, freedom to explore)? I know that if Simon is too tired, he'll get upset over something that wouldn't normally phase him. So I'm wondering if tantrums are like this, but on a grander scale.

In my case, I don't want the help of my extended family. They are mainstream; I don't trust that they would treat Simon with the respect that he deserves or model healthy relationships and ways of being to him.

I really don't want to offend anyone with these thoughts and feel very badly that I have done this.







I'm trying to figure out if there is a way to avoid this -- at least for the most part -- as we'll soon be entering the time that it seems to begin (if we haven't already).

We really want to form our own group of friends who are like family (only chosen!) and help to make things as ideal for us as possible. We're planning to do this somewhere in B.C. starting sometime within a year or so!

I have heard about the Continuum Concept ideas -- in brief -- and will spend more time looking into them -- whenever I manage to find the time.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Interesting topic. I have to agree that "more hands" would reduce tantrums. I don't take ds places by myself at this age. I take my poor mom with me everywhere if I have to get something done otherwise I feel like I am setting up ds for a tantrum. I know he doesn't understand about standing in line or having to check the prices before I chose an object. We were in line at a store the other day, and he wanted to go look at something. I told him I had to pay, so he took the item from me, walked over to an empty cash register and slapped it down on the counter :LOL . He sorta got it that I had to give it to someone at the counter. The fact that there was no one there didn't faze him. soon he was ready for tantrum, if my mom or dh had been there, they'd have walked around with him. Those tantrums were he is frustrated with his own skills, those are harder to avoid.
I have lived in Mexico and I lived with a toddler (of course, not ALL toddlers) but he seemed to have more free range of the world than a lot of toddlers I know. He wasn't expected to sit still and be nice. He was allowed to run in the stores (with the other tots it seemed) and hide in the racks. It seemed more dangerous to me(for example, being allowed to climb out of his car seat when he felt like it), but he happily explored.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

The main problem I have with much of the writing about attachment parenting is that it ignores entire cultures and focuses on very specific, narrow aspects of often unnamed cultures. I do not believe it is possible to isolate one behavior and say that this behavior does or does not occur in a particular culture because of x, y, or maybe z.

Babies in Romanian orphanages do not cry. What are they doing right so that the babies don't cry? Well, the babies are never picked up and held, so they have learned that crying doesn't get them anything and they don't bother. That is an extreme example, but I use it to illustrate that you can find whatever it is that you are looking for.

Instead of looking to "other cultures" to find ways to deal with tantrums or eliminate them altogether, I think we're better served to look at our own culture and work with what we have.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee*
i feel one of the worst things that progress has created is the nuclear family. children are not meant to be raised alone. .

That is just soo true. They are not meant to be raised alone. Also, there should not be a choice between working - and not seeing your children the entire whole day - or being at home caring for them. These things blend in very naturally in other cultures.


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## mamakay (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
Instead of looking to "other cultures" to find ways to deal with tantrums or eliminate them altogether, I think we're better served to look at our own culture and work with what we have.

Ok. But what do we see except inborn personality?
Let's take this continent. Do Mexican toddlers really not freak out so badly so often?
Has our justified preoccupation with saftey created all these problems?


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
The main problem I have with much of the writing about attachment parenting is that it ignores entire cultures and focuses on very specific, narrow aspects of often unnamed cultures. I do not believe it is possible to isolate one behavior and say that this behavior does or does not occur in a particular culture because of x, y, or maybe z.

Instead of looking to "other cultures" to find ways to deal with tantrums or eliminate them altogether, I think we're better served to look at our own culture and work with what we have.

i do agree one shouldnt focus on just one narrow aspect and only look at that. when looking at another culture and trying to find out why their children dont tantrum u really need to look at the whole parenting.

i think one of the saddest development in this country IS the ignoring of other culture. we just refuse to learn from other cultures. with their experience. in totality. when one migrates to this country they are expected to leave their ideals and practises behind and adopt what is here. one never tries to learn hey why is it that somethings works for them but doesnt work for us. and i am not just talking about tantrums or parenting styles but education, personal ethiic and anything else. i remember when columbine happened no one really questioned why - not just maninstream media but the general public too. u wouldnt hear why are our children doing this at office or college breakrooms. except the minority no one really said why doesnt canada have as many violent situations in schools like we do. i digress here.

one of the sad things i notice in this country is that there are soooo many lonely people. there are singles and families who long for community. due to circumstances we tend to eye strangers as bad and then have them prove they are good. i mean there is a community here. if u r away from ur extended families there are others who would be willing to help. there are others who crave a 'family'. i wish there was a way to make them come together.

u know i also find it funny when we criticise another culture and yet indirectly adopt thier methods. for instance arranged marriage. we baulk at the thought yet we have our own internet dating services. the only difference is that parents choose the person based on their lifestyle and their children (doesnt always work) while here the computer makes that judgement call based on ones answers (doesnt always work either).

DAL does make a good point about the definition of 'tantrum'. it probably is true we make a big deal out of it whilst other cultures just look at it as part of the child's growth. i mean here we talk and discuss so much about cosleeping. in other cultures no one even sees any reason to discuss that or even question it.

dal usually the good thing about extended familiies is that it kinda plays the role of a cousellor. so if u have issues with how say ur parents deal with discipline some other family member will step in and tell ur parents to back off. if for instance ur child does not match ur personality and u have no clue how to deal with a certain behaviour - say the first lies - someone will step in and help. plus i feel what makes a huge difference is the attitude change a child brings. in most asian cultures a child strengthens the family bond - they bring families close together. whereas here it mostly tears them apart. maybe i am wrong to feel this way but i find their culture values children more htan we do here. the moment a child appears the world of the adult changes their focus from me to the child. there are exceptions of course. personally in most ancient cultures i find people try harder to make things work than they do here in my limited experience.

well anyways i do think we need to focus on other cultures and figure out what makes certain things work for them that we are struggling with. and i do agree we need to focus on the whole picture and then look at the details - at the specifics. rather than focusing on the specifics and trying to find reasons to fit in the answers.


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## Eilleen (May 29, 2005)

Thank you for your posts Meemee. I found them insightful.

OT- Just a point about The Continuum Concept - Leidloff was not an anthropologist (she was/is a psychotherapist). I actually thought she did a great disservice to the Yequana by romanticising their culture. Nevertheless, her ideas are really thought-provoking and I happen to agree with her ideas.

Back to the topic - I also think that children are inherently social beings and tend to respond to our expectations (so much of it stated in very unclear terms). Unfortunately, so much of of our expectations seem to be stated in negative ways - ie "don't do that, you WILL fall"; "don't touch that"; "put down that stick, you WILL hurt someone" etc - much of that seems to say that we EXPECT them to behave in a careless or negative way. So the normal frustrations of a toddler is compounded by this expectation that they will behave in a negative manner.

Not saying that this is the SOLE reason for tantrums - just saying that this might be one factor for the frequency and intensity for those tantrums.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dal*
I wonder if we all mean roughly the same thing by the word "tantrum." It just seems so sad and strange to me that it is normal for someone to be prone to hysterical wailing, kicking, thrashing, screaming and the like -- often several times each day. Something just seems wrong with this. It just seems so extreme to me. Maybe once in a rare while, but for this to happen frequently? Over minor upsets even? Something just seems wrong there. That is my gut response.

I know you didn't _intend_ to offend anyone, but that whole statement is proof that you aren't able to accept that some children just aren't like yours. You happen have a very mellow babe. Therefore, something *would* be wrong if *your* baby was having meltdowns, because they just aren't part of his everday temperament. My DD, OTOH, is *not* mellow. She is persistent, she is determined and she feels disappointment much more strongly than some babies. She isn't easily redirected and she doesn't forget about things 2 minutes later like some 12 month olds.

It's just like I said in my previous post - I have to hear this crap from both sides of the fence. On the one hand, I'm "too lenient" and I "let her have her way too much/hold her too much/should stop nursing her/stop sleeping with her....." and the list goes on. Then, from some AP families I hear that apparently I'm not spending *enough* time with her, not creating a friendly environment for her, not supporting her enough or whatever. Jesus, there is no answer to this. Accept it. I think the difference here isn't that children in other cultures never have meltdowns. The difference is that in other cultures, they aren't viewed as the horrible, awful thing deserving of punishment that most Americans view them as and the rest of them are embarrassed by. Therefore, no one makes a big deal out of it and it's over with just like that.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

my family is from South America and i have spent a lot of time there with my younger cousins...and the main difference i see is in the attitude of the parents, not the behavior of the children. this is probably just in my family, and i can't generalize to the entire "culture" but they just don't care as much about their "things" that the kids want to play with. they want the remote? ok...they broke the remote? oops...we'll deal. they want to eat dirt? ok, just make sure he/she doesn't choke. there isn't a whole lot that they're really uptight about. they understand that kids are unpredictable, don't understand 'the rules' and will 'mess up' all the time and that's just what they're supposed to do. they don't want them to be independent, they don't expect them to adhere to a schedule, they never make them sleep alone, etc...

sure the kids cry. but honestly, tantrums tend to happen when the child's desires don't mesh with the parents' desires/expectations. i have found that in my family in south america, their expectations are just very very different and don't typically clash with their kids'.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:

Ok. But what do we see except inborn personality?
Let's take this continent. Do Mexican toddlers really not freak out so badly so often?
Has our justified preoccupation with saftey created all these problems?
I don't think comparisons between children in Mexico and children in the United States, an odd comparison, in my opinion, would really tell us all that much about ourselves. Can you isolate the causes and the effects of these differences? Are you an anthropologist? I'm not.

I've tried to read The Contiuum Concept but haven't had any success. I found it to be racist and essentializing of the Yequana people. The "noble savage" strikes again.

Talk of how people raise their children in "other cultures" makes me uncomfortable. It feels racist to talk about other, often unnamed, cultures and how they raise they children without looking at the bigger picture to really understand how they work. I don't like the idea of taking what we need and just leaving the rest. It doesn't do anything to foster understanding of a different way of living and ignores the things that are going wrong in the culture being examined.


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

Slightly OT, but I want to test this out...

I'm sure what I realized the other day is neither profound nor original (it's almost certainly in one of those GD books I've yet to read), but is the following true?

Tantrums start out because the child is frustrated, etc. and can't express himself.

They only (or usually only) become "manipulative" when the _parent_ (or society) makes them so, by responding "inappropriately"-- by giving the child the candy bar he was frustrated that he couldn't have, etc. If parents, et al. don't respond by giving the child things he/she is not supposed to have (or whatever), and instead respond by empathizing with the frustration-- basically viewing tantrums for what they are, not as attempts to manipulate-- then the kid eventually grows out of them. Yes? No?

But when the parent sees early tantrums as attempts to manipulate (or "get something from" the parent) and either digs in his/her heels (punishing the child for tantrums, etc.) or gives in to the child's "demands," then doesn't the parent "make" the tantrums about getting (or not getting) what the child wants?

I don't feel I'm being very articulate here... Basically, I am hypothesizing the following pattern:

1) Child tantrums out of frustration, not knowing or expecting that doing so will "get" him anything. Just tantruming because he can't handle frustration/his emotions.
2) Parent perceives child as trying to "manipulate" certain outcome.
3) Parent treats child accordingly, by punishing "manipulative" behavior (child gets significant attention-- perhaps feels powerful for causing major reaction), or by "rewarding" child with item or action that the child was frustrated about.
4) Child NOW learns that tantrums "get" him something significant. Beforehand, he tantrumed out of frustration-- NOW he may also tantrum partly because it "gets" him something...

Vs., perhaps:

1) As above.
2) Parent perceives child as frustrated, and empathizes. Attempts to help child understand emotions.
3) Child eventually acquires more language and emotional skills to handle frustrating situations. Tantrums "die off," FTMP.

Now, nothing is this cut and dried, but do you think this is true, as a general theory? Perhaps a part of our culture around parent-child power struggles?

I am dying to get some feedback on this from you wonderful ladies....


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## ChasingPeace (Oct 19, 2003)

I haven't read all of the posts yet carefully, but I wanted to add something from my experience. My dh's family is Lebanese, and they spent most of their lives in Lebanon. My SIL used to watch a young girl (here in the US), and I remember being shocked at the way she reacted to the girl's behavior. The little girl was about 3, and was going through the "no" stage. My SIL would ask her to do something, and the girl would say "no," and my SIL would laugh. She wouldn't argue with her, she wouldn't force her, she would just laugh, and she might ask her again later. I was shocked. (this was before I had any exposure to GD). I asked her, why are you letting her be so disobedient? My SIL said, "she's still a baby." Of course, when it came to safety issues, etc., my SIL would not leave it at "no," but she definitely didn't she unimportant "no's" as a challenge to her authority. This is a long-winded way of saying that I think some cultures view "tantrums" and other "undesirable" behavior differently than we do. As for my dh's family, they don't see them as anything more than a developmental stage that the child will outgrow by continually expressing what expected behavior is.

Interesting topic.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

I am extremely interested in looking at child rearing in other cultures. I t is interesting to me to see if things happen across cultures (so maybe it is inborn and I can't control) or if things happen because of the culture (then maybe I can change it). Maybe it would be racist for me to try to explain a culture to you that I have just read about and have little understand ing of but to compare American culture to the Mexican culture where I have lived and where my relatives are from, and where I find children's relationships with their parents to be different (better in some ways, worse in others), is endlessly fascinating to me.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

mmaramba - I disagree that giving a child what they want when they're having a meltdown is always a bad idea. In my 1st post on this thread, I explained how my daughter "tantrumed" because she wanted the lid off the bottle I gave her and she couldn't get the lid off. She couldn't speak to tell me what she wanted, so she became extremely frustrated when she couldn't do it herself. Following the steps you gave, I would have simply empathized with her by telling her I knew she was angry about something. I would then have left it at that and waited for her to calm down. IMO, that actually plays into the whole mainstream manipulation theories. Basically, it's saying that by bothering to find out what was upsetting her and helping her get what she wanted, I was *teaching* her to manipulate me. I don't buy that. There is nothing wrong with doing a little problem solving to find out what is upsetting your child so much and help them if it's something they can have or do. There are enough "no's" in a child's life without adding to them just because they've screamed before you figured out what was wrong. KWIM? If she's having a meltdown because she can't have the knife out of the dishwasher, I won't give it to her. She has then learned she can't always have everything she wants. No need to refuse her *everything* she cries about, just becuase grandma says if I open that bottle for her she's learned that a tantrum gets her way. IMO, refusing them something they're really upset about just because they got upset is only teaching them that frustration/sadness/anger are "bad" and shouldn't be expressed.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

There is a huge difference between someone who is immersed in a culture different than the one they grew up in making observations and drawing conclusions and someone who reads some books or watches some tv shows doing the same. Personally, I've only visited Mexico a few times and can't comment on much about family life there. It becomes racist when a more mobile culture, such as the one in the US, moves into another culture via the media and presumes to make assumptions and draw conclusions about an entire culture based on limited observations and perspectives.

I don't think it is possible to look at any culture in terms of child rearing alone. How parents raise their children is secondary to many things-- the economy, family structure, and gender roles in the society just to name a few. Making changes to our way of life to model one aspect of our lives after another culture doesn't make any sense to me at all.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

And it doesn't make sense to me to not look at alternate ways of being. I can't say, I am living in America now so I do things the American way. I can learn a lot from my experiences in other places and from my friends who were raised in other ways.


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## spatulagirl (Feb 21, 2002)

I have alived in two different countries with children and travelled many many more.

I have a son who throws several trantrums a day. He has been very spirited and high needs since day one.

In Japan, where he was born, it was unheard of. Children do not throw tantrums there. The culture does not support that. When DS would cry or scream you knew the Japanese were not comfortable with it.

Then we moved to Italy where you see children and babies freaking out all the time. When DS throws a fit (and he loves to do it in public, anywhere any time!) they bend over backwards to make him smile. He gets candy, treats, toys, a tour of the kitchen. Food gets sent back for him, he gets tickeled. Anything he wants. He could destroy a restaurant and they would probably find it cute :LOL


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## quaz (May 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dal*
I wonder if we all mean roughly the same thing by the word "tantrum." It just seems so sad and strange to me that it is normal for someone to be prone to hysterical wailing, kicking, thrashing, screaming and the like -- often several times each day. Something just seems wrong with this. It just seems so extreme to me. Maybe once in a rare while, but for this to happen frequently? Over minor upsets even? Something just seems wrong there. That is my gut response. Perhaps it will change as I live and learn.

I have absolutely no problem with healthy emotions or with crying. I don't try to stifle Simon's cries, though I do try to prevent unnecessary crying and melt-downs. I guess that's what I'm getting at. Are tantrums the result of too much built up stress and an environment that is lacking something important for the child (which I would guess are things such as variety, space, nature, freedom to explore)?.


Hey Dal, I'm not 'offended', but it makes me wonder if you've encountered high needs babies before. I have two kids. Same environment. One didn't tantrum at all until several months past two. The other tantrumed starting at 6m! The difference?? My second is high needs. If you aren't familier, it is just a word for a specific temperment type. DD is INTENSE, she is persistent, she is demanding. She just has such a strong opinion on things, that if things don't go her exact way, it is the end of the world. She is fifteen months, and she can have a cup with milk in it at dinner, but if she decides she likes the other cup on the table better... she will ask for it NON-STOP, and then will tantrum if she doesn't get it. If I start to empty the dish washer, she goes NUTS, why? B/c she wants to run it... well, we can't run it until it is unloaded and loaded again. So, she tantrums. She just feels so strongly, and has such energy..... I remember one case, when she was 10m she tantrumed b/c we wouldn't wash her hands for a third time in a row.

I think this is one of the problems in society... people don't understand how much temperment plays a part in kids or even adults. So, you go to the store and see kids tantruming, and you know many people without kids, or little exposure to kids automatically are thinking it is parenting issue. Until a person has a HN or spirited kid, it is sometimes hard to understand that there isn't something wrong with the environment or the kids, but that the child just feels more strongly than others.

Now there are triggers to tantruming... my oldest has fought naps since 2 months old... one of the main reasons she tantrums is b/c she is tired and just can't control her emotions or express them anymore. (and believe me we've tried about everything to get her to nap). My youngest, she just tantrums b/c she feels strongly about everything around her... no triggers are needed other than her not getting exactly what she wants.

Tammy


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Richelle*
mmaramba - I disagree that giving a child what they want when they're having a meltdown is always a bad idea. In my 1st post on this thread, I explained how my daughter "tantrumed" because she wanted the lid off the bottle I gave her and she couldn't get the lid off. She couldn't speak to tell me what she wanted, so she became extremely frustrated when she couldn't do it herself. Following the steps you gave, I would have simply empathized with her by telling her I knew she was angry about something. I would then have left it at that and waited for her to calm down. IMO, that actually plays into the whole mainstream manipulation theories. Basically, it's saying that by bothering to find out what was upsetting her and helping her get what she wanted, I was *teaching* her to manipulate me. I don't buy that. There is nothing wrong with doing a little problem solving to find out what is upsetting your child so much and help them if it's something they can have or do. There are enough "no's" in a child's life without adding to them just because they've screamed before you figured out what was wrong. KWIM? If she's having a meltdown because she can't have the knife out of the dishwasher, I won't give it to her. She has then learned she can't always have everything she wants. No need to refuse her *everything* she cries about, just becuase grandma says if I open that bottle for her she's learned that a tantrum gets her way. IMO, refusing them something they're really upset about just because they got upset is only teaching them that frustration/sadness/anger are "bad" and shouldn't be expressed.

I don't think I disagree with you, Richelle... Perhaps I could ammend my "steps." What I mean is that it is probably important to not see the kid as manipulative-- which is what you did with the bottle/cap incident-- you didn't act as though it was manipulative.

I don't think there's anything wrong with giving your child what she wants in cases like that. What I'm talking about is ALWAYS giving your child something, as a reaction to the tantrum... seeing it as a "request" or "demand" for something, rather than as frustration because she can't COMMUNICATE what she wants.

Do YKWIM? I think it's a small distinction, but maybe an important one.

I also think that if you KNOW what your child wants, and you KNOW that your child is tantruming out of the frustration of not getting it-- and it's something she cannot have, like a sharp knife-- then you (general you) should focus on the frustration she feels and not see it as a "demand" to either "give in to" or to "stand firm against." Does that make sense?

Again, I'm not saying one-size-fits-all... But does this make sense as a general theory? I'm thinking your child picks up on how you're _viewing_ the situation-- as a power struggle or as a communication/emotional issue. And that's where it's important to be "consistent."

Sometimes, you might be "inconsistent" in whether you give the child an item-- but you will always be consistent in your treatment of the situation-- trying to figure out what your child is telling you, empathizing with her, helping her learn to express herself in productive ways, etc. If it's the bottlecap, you figure out what she's trying to say, take the cap off, and (maybe) try to help her communicate her needs in a more effective way the next time ("Honey, I can see you are upset. If you want mama to help you, please say or do X.")... If it's the knife, you act similarly-- you just don't give her the knife. ("Honey, I can see you are upset. Mama can't give you the knife, though. It hurts.")

Yes? No? Something like that?


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Hmm...

"Other cultures" as in Natual Living cultures perhaps?

Let's see what they have vs what we have that might contribute to the topic being discussed:

1. Community environment (being a part of community, many "hands" to assist the Mother) - *vs* Nuclear Family (being the one who has to be treated differetly, only one pair of Mothers hands)

2. Many kids to socialize with *vs* one or two kids OR scheduled day care enviroment

3. Lots of space and things to explore (mostly outside - nature can be explored endlessly) *vs* somewhat of an isolation in an apartment or house with limits of what and when can be touched

4. Fresh air almost all the time *vs* limited exposure to fresh air (even 6-7 hours a day IS a limited exposure) plus smog, exhaust, other pollutants

5. Waking up when rested and going to bed when tired - *vs* scheduled routine

6. Eating foods free of any chemicals - *vs* chemically laces previously frozen and microwaved foods

7. Lots of natural physical activity - *vs* made-up activities like Gymnastics, etc.,

8. Adults that have simple purpose - *vs* adults that have too many responsibilities and lots of stress

I think all of the above can contribute to a larger or lesser degree.

Also, a disclamer - I am and my kids are products of Western cuture, so we engage in lots of the stuff in the right column ourselves (including Gymnastics)


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Gotcha, mmaramba! Yes, we agree.









I was giving this whole "culture" thing more thought and I was thinking that human babies weren't meant to live in a world where so much is off limits and so many things are unsafe. Probably, 5000 years ago, meltdowns weren't as common as they are in the modern world, just because pretty much everything was okay. Today, no matter how much you baby proof and how careful you are, there will be so many more things your child can't have or do than there were long ago. Babies weren't really designed to deal with so much frustration. I, like irinam, think modern life is the problem. :LOL And, like quaz, I just think maybe some have never experienced a "spirited" or "high-needs" child.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam*
Hmm...

"Other cultures" as in Natual Living cultures perhaps?

Let's see what they have vs what we have that might contribute to the topic being discussed:

1. Community environment (being a part of community, many "hands" to assist the Mother) - *vs* Nuclear Family (being the one who has to be treated differetly, only one pair of Mothers hands)

2. Many kids to socialize with *vs* one or two kids OR scheduled day care enviroment

3. Lots of space and things to explore (mostly outside - nature can be explored endlessly) *vs* somewhat of an isolation in an apartment or house with limits of what and when can be touched

4. Fresh air almost all the time *vs* limited exposure to fresh air (even 6-7 hours a day IS a limited exposure) plus smog, exhaust, other pollutants

5. Waking up when rested and going to bed when tired - *vs* scheduled routine

6. Eating foods free of any chemicals - *vs* chemically laces previously frozen and microwaved foods

7. Lots of natural physical activity - *vs* made-up activities like Gymnastics, etc.,

8. Adults that have simple purpose - *vs* adults that have too many responsibilities and lots of stress

I think all of the above can contribute to a larger or lesser degree.

Also, a disclamer - I am and my kids are products of Western cuture, so we engage in lots of the stuff in the right column ourselves (including Gymnastics)


What culture, specifically, are you talking about? Is domestic violence and child rape an issue? What is the political structure of this "other culture"? I don't think you can really begin to understand parenting practices in another culture until you look at the overall ways in which the community works together, and against each other, and

You're giving in to the myth of the "noble savage". Here's more on that...

http://www.biologydaily.com/biology/Noble_savage

I'm not saying that we have nothing to learn from cultures outside of our own. I'm saying that it is tempting to take the observations we make out of context and use them to fit what we already believe. I've read a study about the babies in that Romanian orphanage that did not cry. Am I going to let my baby cry until she no longer sees the point? Of course not. Usually, when we do this, we look for ways to back up what we already believe. The sheer volume of misinformation about non-white cultures shared in the name of promoting attachment parenting is appalling and embarrassing. I read recently that Eskimos do not use diapers. Made as such a broad statement in that context, that statement is false.

I think it is disrespectful to pick and choose what we learn and take from cultures outside of our own based on what we need.


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

Richelle, I'm glad we "get" one another on the manipulation thing.









As for the world today being "more dangerous," I don't think so... I mean, our ancestors didn't have to worry about car accidents, but we don't have to worry much about wild animals, so there you go.

I think it's that we are much more _aware_ of the dangers that do exist-- perhaps hyper-aware. This means that we are able to protect our kids from dangers our ancestors may not have fully understood (disease, choking and drowning hazards, lead poisoning, etc.) Since we know how to keep 95%+ of our kids alive through their toddlerhood (unlike people even 100 years ago), we have fewer kids... Since we have fewer of them, we are more protective-- and to some extent, more fearful and more controlling-- although being more protective has its benefits, too.

Our ancestors (and people in very "undeveloped" countries) had a tough time drawing connections to what caused childhood illness, injury and death. Therefore, they didn't feel that they _could_ control much of what happened to their kids-- it was luck or God or fate that determined whether kids survived, not "protection," FTMP. So they often let their kids do things we wouldn't think of letting our kids do today-- playing in potentially dangerous places with no supervision, eating "unsanitary" foods, etc. Some of them died from bad accidents or food poisoning, but parents didn't necessarily "get it," since they had so much less information-- like studies drawing correlations from large populations, that eventually become cultural practices or government mandates.

This led the kids--very often-- to become more independent and resourceful, among other things. Of course, that's assuming they survived. _Most_ of them did, but certainly many fewer than survive now.

Does that make sense? I think it's tough to find a balance... We should be grateful that we know how to control/prevent so many problems, but not expect to have _total_ control, either.

Hmmmmmmm.....


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:

I think it's that we are much more aware of the dangers that do exist-- perhaps hyper-aware. This means that we are able to protect our kids from dangers our ancestors may not have fully understood (disease, choking and drowning hazards, lead poisoning, etc.) Since we know how to keep 95%+ of our kids alive through their toddlerhood (unlike people even 100 years ago), we have fewer kids... Since we have fewer of them, we are more protective-- and to some extent, more fearful and more controlling-- although being more protective has its benefits, too.

Our ancestors (and people in very "undeveloped" countries) had a tough time drawing connections to what caused childhood illness, injury and death. Therefore, they didn't feel that they could control much of what happened to their kids-- it was luck or God or fate that determined whether kids survived, not "protection," FTMP. So they often let their kids do things we wouldn't think of letting our kids do today-- playing in potentially dangerous places with no supervision, eating "unsanitary" foods, etc. Some of them died from bad accidents or food poisoning, but parents didn't necessarily "get it," since they had so much less information-- like studies drawing correlations from large populations, that eventually become cultural practices or government mandates.
These are really good points. When people talk about homebirth, sometimes they start talking about midwifery in "tribal" societies. I believe that homebirth is significantly safer in the US than hospital birth, but I'm bothered by the narrow perspective taken on birth in tribal societies. The high maternal and infant mortality rates in those societies is never discussed in this context.


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

I'm really getting a lot out of this discussion.

Let me say that I'm wondering if tantrumming numerous times each day is a problem rather than an occasional one here or there. If I saw a child tantrumming at a store, I wouldn't think any less of the parents for it at all. I'd just respect that the child is having a rough time and the parent is dealing with it. If the parent was being disgusting about it (threatening to spank or whatever), that's when I'd be judgmental. I don't like to listen to mean parents who disrespect their children!

It sounds like many here would believe that it is a mix of temperament and the way that our society is set up. That sounds reasonable to me. Perhaps the most actively inclined children find it hardest to cope with restrictions? Or the most persistent children? I guess it would be a combination of factors.

While I do wonder if certain cultural set-ups might be more conducive to less tantrums, I am aware that these same cultures (and I don't really even have one in mind, in particular, just a hazy image) tend to be far, far worse off than ours (well, mine at least -- not sure where you are from or what you identify with) in other aspects and that these make children born there worse off in the long run.

I haven't come into contact with many high needs babies. I have one friend (more of an acquaintance, really) who is an AMAZING woman. She has two children. I can't be 100% certain, but I would bet about everything I have that she is an incredible mother who is very AP and GD. One of her children was a very difficult and colicky baby. So I do believe that some babies/children are just more sensitive than others in these ways. Not that I wouldn't if it weren't for this woman, but the fact that it happened to her makes this point as knowable to me as it can be without having a high needs child of my own.

ETA: Hmmmm. I wonder how this plays out on idealistic communes such as The Farm? Were it not for dh's reluctance -- har har, more like adamant refusal -- I'd very seriously consider moving to such a place if I could find one where I felt I belonged. I usually don't feel like I belong in our society, especially when I'm in a bad mood! This ends my digression.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I think that sometimes we're quick to label children who aren't happy, happy, happy all the time "high needs". My middle child is a drama queen. His mood can turn from deliriously happy to screaming on the floor before your very eyes with no outward indication as to why. He was like that from the day he was born. If anything, I'd be inclined to say that the culture I live in allows him to express himself. I don't always think screaming on the floor is a bad thing. He gets it out and moves on. Surely if he were to do it in a grocery store it would be different, but he rarely has these displays in public. He seems to have a sense that at home, he is safe.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michelemiller*
my family is from South America and i have spent a lot of time there with my younger cousins...and the main difference i see is in the attitude of the parents, not the behavior of the children. this is probably just in my family, and i can't generalize to the entire "culture" but they just don't care as much about their "things" that the kids want to play with. they want the remote? ok...they broke the remote? oops...we'll deal. they want to eat dirt? ok, just make sure he/she doesn't choke. there isn't a whole lot that they're really uptight about. they understand that kids are unpredictable, don't understand 'the rules' and will 'mess up' all the time and that's just what they're supposed to do. they don't want them to be independent, they don't expect them to adhere to a schedule, they never make them sleep alone, etc...

sure the kids cry. but honestly, tantrums tend to happen when the child's desires don't mesh with the parents' desires/expectations. i have found that in my family in south america, their expectations are just very very different and don't typically clash with their kids'.

u r so right. it is the same in my culture too. it is more child centric than parent centric which is what i find mainstream culture here is. but i also understand why it is so with so much stress on the parents. ChasingPeace makes the same point of what she noticed in Lebanon.

now i am not saying no child tantrums. every child has throw at least some tantrums from teh appearence of mankind. i find it impossible to believe that a child never throws tantrums. whether a laid back child or a high needs child - the only difference between them is the degree. tantrums are so natural, they are so part of their development. it is a great learning tool for both parent and child. the child learning what is socially acceptable behaviour (u dont hit or kick in anger) and a parent learning how to 'talk' to their child (spanking them to stop hitting is definitely not the way to teach the child).

u know what i find interesting is that here we are having a huge but v. interesting discussion about tantrums. while in the other cultures they would question 'whats the big deal'? whats there to talk about?

mmaramba - i dont think tantrums go away. IMO - this is my theory. tantrum is anger, frustration. we all feel that. we just learn to deal with them. we learn the socially acceptable way as a child as to how to throw a tantrum. and so tantrums turn into an outburst and whatever other terms u may call it in the adult world. i guess the adult version of tantrum is physical abuse. i am assuming that the word tantrum implies physical violence of some sort and not just tears and words.

with a small child the thing i focus on is the emotion. not the cause of the tantrum. once they burst into tears and lose it they forget the reason that made them so mad and instead struggle to get the emotions out of them. they still havent learnt how to avoid situations that create tantrums that we as adults have.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mothra*
I think it is disrespectful to pick and choose what we learn and take from cultures outside of our own based on what we need.

good point mothra. it brings a smile to my lips because in my country a lot (not all) of people think the US is like 'baywatch' or 'oprah'.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
What culture, specifically, are you talking about?

I was not talking about any *specific* culture

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
You're giving in to the myth of the "noble savage".

If you will, I probably am

The discussion was about what may contribute to toddlers not having tantrums and those were my thoughts on why *I think* it might be. We were NOT discussing any particular culture and how it might be better than ours

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
I'm not saying that we have nothing to learn from cultures outside of our own.

Exactly! So let's do. We don't have to all of a sudden convert (and probably will not be able to) our society to the "nobbe savage" society, but we can still analyse different aspects of other cultures and maybe adapt *some* of them

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
I've read a study about the babies in that Romanian orphanage that did not cry.

I don't see how orphanage environment can even remotly be considered natural to which I was refering to

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
The sheer volume of misinformation about non-white cultures shared in the name of promoting attachment parenting is appalling and embarrassing.

Again, not by any means was I discussing any given culture and taking only the "snap-shots" in portraying this culture.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
I think it is disrespectful to pick and choose what we learn and take from cultures outside of our own based on what we need.

Why do you think it is disrespectful to pick and choose what might be useful to us? If for example I see a mother somewhere in a different country using a cool breastfeeding or slinging "technique" - I would be interested in adopting it (most probably without going into a complete study of her culture and other aspects of it)


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

This is a really interesting thread and I don't feel like I have a whole lot to contribute, but it did occur to me that here in the U.S. we are sooooo commercialized. It is a HUGE part of our lives. "To have" is "to be happy" and you can bet the farm that toddlers have already picked up on that.

Then they are surrounded by our wild overabundance of _things_, things that are being aggressively marketed to them and placed to appeal to them, and of course they can't have all those things. That to me would be one way in which U.S. culture contributes to struggles and tantrums -- our commercialism so often pits the child against the parent.

I don't have any firsthand knowledge about, say, European countries and marketing to kids, and I would be fascinated to hear from someone who does, but I think this one factor would make a big difference between the modern U.S. and, say, an underdeveloped part of Mexico, or a tribe in the Amazon rainforest, or a Sioux tribe 400 years ago: fewer things, fewer choices, means fewer things to be overwhelmed with.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *girlndocs*
-- our commercialism so often pits the child against the parent.

I so-o-o agree! Though I would make the same "correction" as I do when I argue with DH on this - this is not USA specific.

"Commercialism" is a desease that's plaguing more and more places


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:

If you will, I probably am

The discussion was about what may contribute to toddlers not having tantrums and those where my thoughts on why *I think* it might be. We were NOT discussing any particular culture and how it might be better than ours
This is the problem, and it is a big one. You are grouping many cultures together, without giving them individual consideration and recognition, in order to prove a point you want to make. You're talking about "primitive" cultures, right? The myth of the "noble savage" is widely considered to be racist and condescending, and in this context I believe that it is.

Your idea that some cultures are more "natural" than others are based on false assumptions and stereotypes and a contrived definition of the word "natural". Stereotypes, even ones that you deem positive, still contribute to racism.

I think it is disrespectful to pick and choose what we want from other cultures because it invalidates the culture as a whole. I'm pretty sure no one here wants to start talking about cultural appropriation and exploitation, so I'll drop it there.


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## quaz (May 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
I think that sometimes we're quick to label children who aren't happy, happy, happy all the time "high needs". My middle child is a drama queen. His mood can turn from deliriously happy to screaming on the floor before your very eyes with no outward indication as to why. He was like that from the day he was born. If anything, I'd be inclined to say that the culture I live in allows him to express himself. I don't always think screaming on the floor is a bad thing. He gets it out and moves on. Surely if he were to do it in a grocery store it would be different, but he rarely has these displays in public. He seems to have a sense that at home, he is safe.

I do think that is very true. My sis/mom (who live in a different state), continually try to use the term high needs for my sis's child, since I've used it for mine. I've seen this child on three different occasions in the 8 months of her life. This child is SOOooo not high needs. I try to tell them, that my niece reminds much of my oldest who wasn't high needs, BUT was very observant, didn't want to miss anything and who faught sleep. I think that a child that isn't "low key" can be mistakenly labeled as high needs by people (like my sis/mom), who think kids are 'easy'. My dd on the flip side... hit every attribute on that dr sears site dead on.

I also think part of high needs has to do with cultural restrictions...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dal*
It sounds like many here would believe that it is a mix of temperament and the way that our society is set up. That sounds reasonable to me. Perhaps the most actively inclined children find it hardest to cope with restrictions? Or the most persistent children? I guess it would be a combination of factors.

While I do wonder if certain cultural set-ups might be more conducive to less tantrums,


See I so agree with that. Some kids don't deal with restrictions well, b/c they are so active and persistent. My dd freaked in the car seat, but 30 years ago when they didn't require them, she would have been great in a car ride. You combine temperment with cultural set-up/expectations, along with just the age of me/me/me autonomy.... and ya end up with tantrums, b/c the kids simply can't express such raw emotions.

Tammy


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

Mothra, just want to say that I second everything you have said...

Must be that African American Studies degree I'm getting...


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Mothra, I just don't understand. How can thinking parents not take the best aspects of other practices and incorporate them into their childrearing? How can I not read about other people doing something differently, having positve results, and not try it myself? Should I stop reading about other culture's practices? Don't you think that slinging, for example, and maybe nursing in public have been stolen from cultures other than North American? What is the border of my culture since I come from a mixed background? What is the alternate choice? Only following practices of mainstream America?


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
I think that sometimes we're quick to label children who aren't happy, happy, happy all the time "high needs".

I'm not sure exactly what you are saying, in regards to this thread?

Obviously, some people will call their children high needs/spirited when they aren't, but a lot of kids are in fact high needs.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

First of all, where did I say that you shouldn't learn from other cultures? What I said was that if you are going to look at one particular aspect of a culture outside of your own, you need to understand how it fits into the bigger picture. Talking about how people in Culture X co-sleep and how wonderful it is for them doesn't tell me anything about how it fits into my life. It also does Culture X a disservice because it reduces the people of that culture to a two-dimensional image of what we need them to be in order to serve our own purpose-- in this case, advocate for co-sleeping.

Do I think you should stop reading parenting books based on practices in other cultures? I'm not going to tell you what to do, and I think you know that is ridiculous, but I do not read such books. I think you know the borders of your own culture, that will be different for everyone.

Who said anything about "mainstream" America? I think you are missing my point completely. If you really are interested in what I'm talking about, read more about the myth of the noble savage and cultural appropriation. I've explained about as well as I'm capable.

The notion that babywearing and nursing in public belong to a particular culture is absurd. Breastfeeding is certainly not cultural, it is biological, and babywearing has been done in almost every culture across the globe in some form or another.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:

I'm not sure exactly what you are saying, in regards to this thread?

Obviously, some people will call their children high needs/spirited when they aren't, but a lot of kids are in fact high needs.
Of course lots of kids are high needs. My nephew is. My neighbor's kid is. What I meant is that many people would probably call MY kid high needs if they observed him for short periods of time because he is prone to fits and tantrums. The conversation started by the OP was framed in the context that tantrums are bad and are something that should be avoided. I don't necessarily agree. I also don't think that every child that is prone to tantrums is high needs, although from what i hear in real life and on these boards, that seems to be the popular opinion. I would never tell anyone else that their kid is not high needs, but I see some of my friends struggling with daycare and the school system and even parents of their children's friends and the quickness with which a child can be labeled high needs just by expressing him or herself in a way that makes others uncomfortable.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Thanks for the clarification. I haven't had much sleep lately and I need extra help these days!


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen*
Thanks for the clarification. I haven't had much sleep lately and I need extra help these days!

I heard that.


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## iridium (Oct 17, 2004)

Someone referred to the Continuum Concept here and that the author was an anthropologist and that just is not true. (my apologies if this was already brought up)

Jean Leidloff was a model and in South America and ran into the Yequana while hunting for diamonds. She noticed some things then returned to the Yequana to observe them at another time. I don't mean for this to discount her work. Her writing has influenced my parenting a great deal. Yet I do think it can be taken with some grain of salt too. She also never had a any children of her own.

She also emphasizes that the kids didn't cry. There is a phrase/word in the Yequana language that translates roughly to "the time that the babies talk to each other" which could very well be similar to what we experience in the western world as colic which is often in the evenings.

Samantha


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## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spatulagirl*
Then we moved to Italy where you see children and babies freaking out all the time. When DS throws a fit (and he loves to do it in public, anywhere any time!) they bend over backwards to make him smile. He gets candy, treats, toys, a tour of the kitchen. Food gets sent back for him, he gets tickeled. Anything he wants. He could destroy a restaurant and they would probably find it cute :LOL

:LOL Oh Kate, I'm from Italy and that's so true!! (Just like SE Asia)


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
Talking about how people in Culture X co-sleep and how wonderful it is for them doesn't tell me anything about how it fits into my life.

It does not until I try! But when I do and it does fit into my life, that is exactly what I am going to say "I learned how people in Culture X co-sleep and tried it - it works wonders for us!" I am NOT going to say "Culture X is wonderful because they co-sleep like so" or "Culture X is awful because they don't do XYZ"

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
It also does Culture X a disservice because it reduces the people of that culture to a two-dimensional image of what we need them to be in order to serve our own purpose-- in this case, advocate for co-sleeping.

Why? I am Russian/Ukrainian by birth and my first 20 years were spent immersed in that culture. Let me tell you, in many ways it is drastically different from American or many other cultures for that matter.

One thing that I will use as an example - Elimination Communication is practiced widely there. So if somebody said (wrote, typed, what-have-you) "I am using EC technique as I saw Russian mothers do and it works great for us" - I am supposed to feel "reduced" or as if my culture was done "disservice" and/or portrayed two-dimensionally?


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Wow! What a thread this is!

mmaramba - I didn't mean that the world was necessarily safer overall long ago! I just meant that 1000 years ago kids weren't constantly hearing, "Don't put things in the outlet," and "Don't put that in your mouth" and "Don't touch those cleaning chemicals" and "Don't run out in the street" and "No you can't have that junk food" and "You can't run from Mommy in the store." Obviously people were in much more danger of death by disease, injury, being eaten by predators and many other things. It's just that babies were actually able to play with pretty much anything they found on the ground and go wherever there were people to watch. That would make for a much less stressful life to a toddler, IMO.

I agree with Mothra and others who say that babies are often called high needs even when they aren't. I don't necessarily think my DD is high needs. She just has a lot of meltdowns. However, I think the OP may not recognize that some high needs babies (and some that aren't, even, like mine) will have lots of "tantrums". LOTS! :LOL


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

Quote:

It's just that babies were actually able to play with pretty much anything they found on the ground and go wherever there were people to watch. That would make for a much less stressful life to a toddler, IMO.
Right, not stressful for the toddler. Agreed.

Until he came down with salmonella from chewing on those feathers he "found on the ground."









Now THAT'S stressful!







:

(And nobody tell me that someone would have been there to take the feathers away. To some great extent, people 100-1000 years ago didn't make the connection with disease).

You're right that there were probably fewer restrictions on children's behavior 100-1000 years ago... I think we would probably do well to emulate that... _to a point._ All I was saying is that there has probably been a net benefit to our survival to all our do-thises and don't-do-thats. KWIM?


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
First of all, where did I say that you shouldn't learn from other cultures? What I said was that if you are going to look at one particular aspect of a culture outside of your own, you need to understand how it fits into the bigger picture. Talking about how people in Culture X co-sleep and how wonderful it is for them doesn't tell me anything about how it fits into my life. It also does Culture X a disservice because it reduces the people of that culture to a two-dimensional image of what we need them to be in order to serve our own purpose-- in this case, advocate for co-sleeping.

Do I think you should stop reading parenting books based on practices in other cultures? I'm not going to tell you what to do, and I think you know that is ridiculous, but I do not read such books. I think you know the borders of your own culture, that will be different for everyone.

Who said anything about "mainstream" America? I think you are missing my point completely. If you really are interested in what I'm talking about, read more about the myth of the noble savage and cultural appropriation. I've explained about as well as I'm capable.

The notion that babywearing and nursing in public belong to a particular culture is absurd. Breastfeeding is certainly not cultural, it is biological, and babywearing has been done in almost every culture across the globe in some form or another.

Ok, I have read plenty about the myth of the noble savage (minor in Latin American Studies), just don';t quite see how it applies in a concrete way. Is looking, admiring, trying different from appropriating? I don't see how hearing something about a culture, trying it in your own family has to mean that you are reducing a culture to a two diminsional image. We should learn from other cultures but not pick and chose what to incorporate into our own lives?

Maybe babywearing has been done in most cultures but I was stealing it from indiginous Mexican cultures since they were the first ones I saw doing it. It looked like a good idea and the babies seemed to enjoy it. Breastfeeding, babywearing, cosleeping, don't seem like aspects of my "culture" as I understand it so I am stealing these ideas from other cultures and bringing them into my own life. Actually, I think you have given me some concrete ideas about this, like about homebirth, it is just that I have never heard what people say about homebirthing in other cultures so I am still missing this.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Im not so sure there were 'fewer restrictions' on children 100 or 1000 yrs ago. Maybe a million yrs ago. Maybe some kids have fewer restrictions, but some kids had more. Slave children, fi. The little Roman slave or Greek slave or African slaves or whatever slave children certainly had restrictions. Or the children playing on the floor of factories 100 yrs ago while their mothers sewed, or the little children who sewed in the factories.

I think each culture, each time had it's own restrictions. Even the wealthy Victorian children had to behave in a certain way, and long before that, children were not even considered children and people did with them as they pleased.

I am also sure the cave children didn't wander too far off and often did get burned from the fires and did fall off cliffs or step in poison ivy...or get stung by bees...

I dont think any child has lived without it's share of cultural frustration.

Tantrums have to do with fatigue and brain growth, and I maintain there is nothing abnormal about them. We can try to limit them, feeding the child, making sure we are not making great demands when she is tired, not putting them in frustrating situations for our own egos etc. But they are going to happen for most children, at some point.

I simply do not see that all expression of pent up 'stuff' is bad.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ilaria*
:LOL Oh Kate, I'm from Italy and that's so true!! (Just like SE Asia)

I am from Italy too, and I totally agree. It was not until I moved to Switzerland that I realized that if a baby cries you do not necessarily have to do something IMMMEEDIATTELLY!!!


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Mothra-
I have also studied a great deal about the noble savage and cultural appropriation during my doctoral coursework...I agree that these kinds of conversations *can* be dangerous, but I also think that maybe you're making grander points than are necessary in this particular conversation. You seem to be getting really emotional about the "racist" tendencies of a few of the posters on here, and I'm not sure it's really warranted...Maybe I'm interpreting your posts incorrectly, but I think that you're arguing on a level that nobody is trying to take it to...perhaps that's the issue...that you feel that it needs to be taken there...and you may be right, but I just think that your points are not being taken as they are intended because the conversation is just a little south of where you're talking. does that make sense?

I think that we can learn from other cultures, as do you...and I agree that acontextual "practices" are useless to an anthropologist or sociologist and any articles or papers presented without a contextual component would be laughed out of any peer review. But that's not what this is, really...I just feel like it's not helping the other posters to keep hearing about acontextuality rather than discussing the actual practices that they're concerned with, kwim?

AAGH I'm reading my post over again and I'm realizing that I'm not explaining my point well at all. I have written some of the exact sentiments that you've posted in this thread for papers/presentations/publications. I am in total agreement with you anthropologically...I just feel like it's getting lost in this thread because it's not really useful in *this* context...kwim?

oy. I'm butchering my point. I'm gonna stop here and hope that maybe someone understands what i'm trying to say! i'll come back later when I can form an articulate thought.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:

Let's see what they have vs what we have that might contribute to the topic being discussed:

1. Community environment (being a part of community, many "hands" to assist the Mother) - vs Nuclear Family (being the one who has to be treated differetly, only one pair of Mothers hands)

2. Many kids to socialize with vs one or two kids OR scheduled day care enviroment

3. Lots of space and things to explore (mostly outside - nature can be explored endlessly) vs somewhat of an isolation in an apartment or house with limits of what and when can be touched

4. Fresh air almost all the time vs limited exposure to fresh air (even 6-7 hours a day IS a limited exposure) plus smog, exhaust, other pollutants

5. Waking up when rested and going to bed when tired - vs scheduled routine

6. Eating foods free of any chemicals - vs chemically laces previously frozen and microwaved foods

7. Lots of natural physical activity - vs made-up activities like Gymnastics, etc.,

8. Adults that have simple purpose - vs adults that have too many responsibilities and lots of stress
If this doesn't invoke the image of the noble savage, I don't know what does. I've been having these message board conversations about attachment parenting for a long time. These conversations, that begin with questions about "other cultures", invariably turn to this racist ideal. In addition to the racism inherent in the discussion, it puts unfair and unrealistic pressure on women to emmulate practices that are not always supported or even practical in the culture we live in.

As I stated earlier, there is a stark difference between people making observations about cultures they are immmersed in and making generalizations about "other cultures". Several posters have ignored the fact that I said that and continued to comment about personal experiences in response to things that I said about the noble savage myth.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

do you disagree that some "other cultures" can be at least partially characterized by having some of these qualities? I thing that finding this combination of characteristics is overgeneralized and definitely does fit the "noble savage" image. But I don't agree that merely listing these types of characteristics as oppositional to what the poster believes America to practice is inherently racist.

Does the poster have to list the reasons that the nuclear family is not preferred in many other cultures? Does she have to explain that there are postive and negative contextual factors that led to larger families, communal living, etc? I agree that it might help to make a richer argument, but I don't think that failing to do so nevessarily means that she's falling into the grander trap that you're worried about.

I see the undertones of what you're talking about...I do see it. I've been trained to see it, probably as you have. I just think that you might be a bit hypervigilant about *some* things that aren't *totally* there.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

hm...you know what...I think I see what you see...I just re-read the list and thought of at least a few "buts" to every single "noble savage" characteristic. And I think I feel the same ickiness that you do about the comparisons.

I guess in my mind I'm also seeing that those characteristics (which may or may not actually occur in "other cultures" and which may or may not be forced upon them because of other negative characteristics in those "other cultures", be the only options, be the most compatible with the other millions of characteristics NOT listed, etc...) are positive...so I'm immediately taking it out of the "noble savage" conversation in my head and just seeing the "best practice" argument, without the cultural component. Which is wrong on my part, as it is very much couched in the cultural argument...i think it is because those things are natural to my South American experience so I don't see it as "other" and therefore don't attribute it to the noble savage myth.

My point is that i see your point now. i think i was removing the cultural component in my own head when i read things like "fresh air" and just thinking "well, that's good...what's your beef?" and not really keeping it within the context of cultural comparison.

soo...sorry 'bout that.







go on about your business. LOL


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## mamakay (Apr 8, 2005)

Mothra and michelemiller,
Can you go a little more in depth?
I'm not asking you to try and squeeze years of study into a post, but I want to be sure I'm following you...
I think I might be, but I'm not sure.
I'm thinking of a documentary I saw on Pakistani women. At first it looked quite ideal and quintessentially AP...till you saw that the mother was sold to the husband and his family for some goats when she was 14, and the "extended family" were her "bosses" and she wasn't much more than a slave, etc.
Is that the kind of thing you're talking about, or am I totally missing your point?


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Okay, first Mothra, thank you for getting me to even think about this issue. I dare say I would have merrily continued along without it occurring to me that we may be treading near dangerous ground. Very thought-provoking stuff.

And thank you michelemiller for providing your well-written posts as well. As interesting as I find Mothra's arguements, I feel that perhaps the point has been made and that I think perhaps the level is being raised to one beyond the purposes of this thread.

Okay, back to the discussion at hand. The one question that keeps repeating in my head over and over (and stated many times by UUMom) is:

*Why are we acting like tantrums are "BAD"? Or need to be reduced?
Or need to be "dealt with"???*

AFAIC, they are a normal, natural and healthy part of human development. Children are feeling emotions like frustration, anger, sadness, etc. for the first time and they are expressing those emotions in the only way they are developmentally capable. Instead of worrying about the noise level, the amount of thrashing that goes on, the length of the episode, or the frequency, why not just express some joy that our children have moved into another wonderful and challenging stage of their growth as people?

I remember when my DS was only about 4 months old and he was just learning to grab objects and he would get himself all worked up when playing with any toy. He'd get more and more vocal until he'd just burst into a fit. My DH was like "What is wrong with him? He can't even play without getting upset? Aren't toys supposed to make babies happy?". But I was not upset. I was amazed! This tiny baby is already demonstrating frustration? That's a huge milestone. It was my first glimpse into his personality. He's going to be an emotional and sensitive little fellow, I'm guessing. Wonderful!









I do think that reducing stress in a child's life is always a good plan. Keep them fed, rested, and in a "yes" environment as much as possible. And, as with all of us, reactions to emotions tend to be harsher when we are under stress of any sort (don't we all experience this ourselves on those parenting days when you've had no sleep and everything just sets you off?).

So from all this discussion, I think the most important and relevent answers are the ones that point out the ADULTS' reactions to the tantrums. And their attitudes about whether they need "fixing" at all. I don't believe they need anything more or less than empathy and love. In places where parents "get" that, I think kids are better able to just be kids.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

I think the question on this thread is "are tantrums completely natural part of toddlerhood or do they happen more often in North America." I would think that it would be helpful for people who have lived in other cultures to share their experiences with this topic. I agree it is not particularly helpful for others to share what they have heard/read/think might happen in another culture that they are not particularly familiar with. They are probably essencializing and promoting stereotypes. I just don't think that it is impossible to have this conversation without being racist about it.
When a PP listed attributes of another culture that were very vague, I didnt' even think she was listing attributes of another ethnic/geographical group, I thought she was listing aspects of a hippie/commune kinda culture in North America so it didn't strike me as racist. I know people who live within that subculture.
My question is, how can thinking parents not pick and choose the best practices of other groups? It was endlessly fascinating to me to be raised in a mix of midwestern North American culture and California Mexican American culture, then move to Mexico and really explore the difference that I see in the family relationships there compared to here. I just can't ignore that and say, well my neighbors all do it this way, so. . . This problem is challenging for me since I was not being flippant when I asked what is the boundary of a culture? What culture an I apart of, and what culture am I outside of? For a mixed cultural person living in a mixed cultural world, this is a real question to me.

Ps. I am enjoying this conversation, feels like I m back in grad school, but mothra, why did you think that it was "odd" to compare mexican and american toddlers?







I was a little hurt by the comments.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Flor, I have the same issues of being bicultural...my US-self and my South American self are complex and intertwining, but it often makes me less aware of how I am being subtly racist in my assumptions. I tend to think that everybody has the same shorthand as I do or that I am inherently non-racist simply because I have been raised in two different cultures.

I have to go eat now (i have about a 5 minute window, being 14 weeks pregnant and still in the throes of morning sickness) but i'll come back to chat more about this later.


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

I'd love to read more about the noble savage argument and why this discussion can be perceived as racist. If we were to think out an ideal community in order to create a commune, e.g., we migth start with points similar to these and see where they lead us. While we try to figure out how to maximize what we deemed were positive qualities, we could better see how they'd fit into life as a whole and then remove some from the list if they were no longer feasible or the bad outweighed the good.

Earlier in this thread (I think it was here) I made the point of trying to do this on a smaller scale in B.C. when we move there. For example, I like the idea of having a particular place -- say a rock in the midst of a large park -- that whoever (of a collective of parents and their children) feels like it on a given day goes to meet at say, noon. The children can mix and explore nature while the parents do the same and share in taking care of them. The collective of parents and children would be in frequent contact with each other. They would lean on each other, trade things, help each other out, spend a lot of time in each other's homes, have many shared functions and events, talk about self improvement together, and see some members of the group on a daily, or near-daily, basis. Some of them would also be involved in homeschooling together. This is not an extended family, but it would help to bring about some of the benefits that an extended family brings without much of the negative aspects (like having my cranky mom live with me. EEEK.). With a vision statement and shared ideals -- discussed at monthly meetings or whatever -- each parent involved would be entitled to do more to GD the other children and the children wouldn't be exposed to negative parent-child interactions like threats and condescension (sp?). Ideal, yes, but an ideal vision is the place to start so that we have a target to aim at (I'm really loving Aristotle today -- the archery metaphor is from him).

So would it have been better to just have the same discussion without the word culture or references to other people? Talk instead about other ways? What are those of us who are unhappy with the Canadian/American-type ways of life to turn to? Must we restrict ourselves to literature that is completely fictional? I guess I'm not fully seeing what is problematic about discussing what might work in other places to keep tantrums to a minimum. I don't have any ridiculous notions that these other cultures are perfect or that the people in them are all the same. I don't even really have a specific culture in mind. They certainly aren't what I'd call savages either. Nor would I consider them noble. They, whoever this applies to -- I really haven't a clue -- seem to get something right though. If their toddlers are generally pleased and content and seldom tantrum, I'd like to know about that so that I can think about what might be causing it and what might be going wrong here where frequent tantrums each day is not unheard of.

I don't have a problem with getting out pent up emotions. But I do think there might be something wrong if emotions keep getting pent up. If Simon gets very frustrated over a toy every time he plays with it, we remove it and try again in a month or so. I see no benefit of recreating situations that cause stress to the child. He will learn how to deal with frustrations without having to endure it needlessly. Learning how to cope with frustrations is normal, but freaking out on the floor several times every day for weeks or months still makes me think that something might be off in the way that child is living, and it is causing her or him to be under too much stress and to feel too powerless.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor*
When a PP listed attributes of another culture that were very vague, I didnt' even think she was listing attributes of another ethnic/geographical group, I thought she was listing aspects of a hippie/commune kinda culture in North America so it didn't strike me as racist. I know people who live within that subculture.

Thank you. Thank you for being able to put *my* thoughts into words (just in case - no sarcasm here! tone of voice is kinda hard to type :LOL )

You are right, I think the whole idea of this topic was not to bash or praise any culture. It's about toddler and tantrums and what maybe our neighbours are doing that might be better then what we practice...

*Dal*, I loved your well thought-out post. Can I live in the community you are describing? Please?







:


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmaramba*
Tantrums start out because the child is frustrated, etc. and can't express himself.

I think this is a common misconception about tantrums.

Both my children spoke in sentences at age 12 months. Dd#1 just about never tantrumed. Dd#2 tantrums many times some days. Yet by the age of 2 she had the language of many 4 or 5 year olds. She can express herself remarkably well, even in the midst of a tantrum. :LOL

I think there is a misconception also about tantrums being when a child is opposed by an adult. Again, ime this is not true. Dd#2 can tantrum when there is nobody else in the room.







She can tantrum at the very _thought_ of something that bugs her. And it can be something that didnt bother her in the slightest the day before.









I think we can be too quick to explain things as being results of our parenting - it is a fairly common theme, for example, on mdc, to read a mother's exasperated plea about 'what went wrong' when she did 'everything right' in AP terms. Or another mdc mother patting herself on the back for her child never tantruming, or being superconfident and polite, or (fill in the gap) because she did all the AP stuff 'right'. Or, alternatively, the tale of a terrible child at the playground doing stuff 'wrong' because his mother was 'so mainstream'.

I used to partly buy into this stuff. Three kids later, I know that it is not that simple. There is this little X factor, called personality. I can give guidance, and I can help them to learn to manage their frustrations and emotions, but I cannot change the three little personalities in my house.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Thanks, Britishmum for your point. Well put.


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## twostraightlines (Aug 28, 2004)

Dal-
You HAVE to read the book Mating by Norman Rush. It is a novel about a utopian society set up in which women are in charge. It is my favorite book of all time. Look me up if you read it (or anyone else too!), I've never known anyone who read it to discuss it with...


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dal*
I guess I'm not fully seeing what is problematic about discussing what might work in other places to keep tantrums to a minimum.

when u try to do that u kinda search for answers that fit ur question. it is v. hard to look at the whole picture and deduce from them.

for instance say u note that children in a particular culture (this is purely hypothetical) hold their babies a lot so u assume if u too sling ur baby u shouldnt see so many tantrums. u see all those moms working in the fields with silent babies so the sling should be it. well that is part of the reason. but other factors are there too. the child is growing up in a rich environment with extended family. when the mom gets home different hands take teh baby. they may not constantly entertian the baby but the baby is part of their daily life playing by himself and enjoying the adult humdrum of activity around. money is short but the parents philosophy is have to do with what i have. u become religioius. u accept things. yes my child is dying due to lack of treatment but i have to accept this as the higher powers wish. i have to stay calm and not get hysterical because i have the whole family to take care of. so even though the circumstances are stressful the parents can keep the stress away. you are not constantly in a rush to do things, to make things happen. u r not on a schedule running from pillar to post.

so it is better to look at the facets of a culture - of any tribe and see what is their philosophy. u look at their parenting as a whole instead of a few features. then u see how their children turn out. instead of the other way around. why do they do carry their baby so much. they may themselves not have a direct answer (theyve never had to think of it) but they would guess because then the baby doesnt cry that much.

the things i feel that are wrong in this country - which is what creates a problem - are not deliberate but that's just how life turned out. for instance many children dont like schedules. they dont like going to bed at 9. they prefer when they are tired. but they have to go to daycare the next morning so they have to go to sleep by 9.

now if the govt. gave tax breaks and incentives to parents so that it is easy for one of them to stay home (if that is their choice) then we would probably see better parenting. i mean 6 - 8 weeks maternity leave as opposed to canada's yearly parental leave is just ridiculous. so really slinging maynot be the answer. easing tension - making places child friendly - like some grocery stores having supervised child care areas - will make this country a better place to raise children. instead of just focusing on childbirth classes there should be more focus on parenting classes so that a parent understands appropriate age behaviour adn learns why tantrums happen so they can think of GD themselves. wish there was an adopt a grandparent program where a family can 'adopt' an elderly person (of course it kinda has to be like a dating service matching program) as i find is so important for children to have exposure to various age groups. plus u r meeting the needs of lonely people too. if we can do something on these lines and pay more attention to our children (and i dont mean MDC but esp. the mainstream out there - many of whom just dont know and have no guidance of how to be parents) then we may not see so much of violence we see in young juveniles today.

the other day some friends accompanied us to teh park. i was exhausted at teh end of my work day. if i was there with my dd just by myself i would have played a little bit with her but then sat down and let her play by herself. instead these adult friends just played like little kids with my dd, doing funny things, creating new games, chasing, climbing nonclimable areas. it was awesome. when they were ready to call it a day my dd did not fight going home. she had been physically and mentally challenged. so she took a bath and went to sleep. if it had been just her and me i would have had a hard time putting her to bed. now i could have done the same things as my friends but i was exhausted. i could not come up with more ideas at teh end of the day. but they brought in their unique perspective, thier energy and freshness which my dd enjoyed. so instead of throwing a tantrum at teh mention of pjs she willingly did the whole routine and went to bed.

hope this makes sense.


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

Britishmum-- Very insightful. I am still new to all this, so now that I think about it, maybe, instead of saying: "Tantrums start out because the child is frustrated, etc. and can't express himself," I should qualify that and say that that is *sometimes* why tantrums start.

I guess it seems that tantrums are a result of frustration, to some great degree. But... Now I don't know.

I think back to when I was a kid... A very sensitive child... Now, I didn't tend to tantrum when I couldn't get ice cream, or some such, but I was a perfectionist and got very tantrumy when I didn't get things "right." (Obviously there were other things going on there, but I'll focus on the tantrums themselves right now).

I was also a highly-verbal kid, reading at age 3 1/2, started Kindergarten at 4, etc.

I think that any "fits" I had (and I should say that they were mostly self-flagellating, not yelling at my parents, or anything) were *definitely* the result of frustration (and obviously, lack of acceptance of "failure," too-high expectations, etc).

I think they also had something to do with my not being able to express myself or get out of the tunnel-vision of perfectionism.

I think it *did* have something to do with not being able to express myself, actually. Not in the way or on the level that I *wanted* to express myself, anyway.

Look, I was reading H.G. Wells' "War of the Worlds" when I was an 8-year-old fourth-grader. But I *still* didn't have the words-- or more accurately, the ability-- to express my frustration in *any* way, really... "productive" or "unproductive"... I knew it was "irrational," I guess, but it had a substance to it... just couldn't get a handle on that substance-- couldn't quite express it-- without crying and screaming sometimes.

And then, screaming and crying was expressing *something* but never really resolving anything. Not that tantrums can't be cathartic, but when they *keep* happening, and don't make you feel better, and... just result in more tantrums, then maybe there *is* something deeper there. (Like there was for me-- the too-high expectations thing was never fundamentally addressed).

Not accusing anyone here of anything, but just thinking... Maybe tantrums are like anything else: developmental, not inherently "bad" or "good." BUT, SOMETIMES, if they are like those I described above, they can be problematic. They might really be "bad," or something to be addressed, if they have certain features or progress along certain lines.

Like depression. Nothing wrong with having bad moods, or occasionally suffering one or more of the symptoms. But when it's a pervasive pattern of 5+ symptoms that interfere with your daily life, last for at least 6 weeks, yadda yadda, then there IS a problem. YKWIM? I mean, I'm sure that's obvious, and I'm just sounding pedantic now.

I still am not 100% Zen about my perfectionist issues, but I didn't even *really* start addressing my extreme frustration/"fits" until I was in therapy at age 16 or so. Not that this applies to every "tantrum" situation, and I agree with a PP that said no human ever really stops tantruming, but...

Don't know.

Still mulling this over...


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

i think that kids tantrum for different reasons. every kid is different. some will get frustrated bc they can't communicate, some will get frustrated bc of perfectionism, some will tantrum when they're hungry, some when they're tired, some just "because"...every single child in the universe is unique and i don't think that we can really ever 100% accurately generalize about something as complex as the human mind and its manifestations (as behaviors).

that being said, i think that there are also differences in the way that parents respond to these tantrums. for some, it's a big deal, it's embarrassing, it tells them that they're "failling", etc...for others (like my family in south america that i mentioned before), it says absolutely nothing about themselves and is just a part of life that is nurtured as much as any other aspect. i think that the way we as parents react to tantrums can have an impact on how much they occur in the future or how far they escalate in the moment. again, no one way is the "right" way...some kids need to be held, some kids need their own space. so to say that there is ONE right way to handle a tantrum is just as ridiculous as saying that there is ONE reason that tantrums occur.

i guess that's another reason why it's dangerous to talk about cultural differences in these general ways...it boils down to individual differences most of the time, and of course those individual differences are influenced by cultural norms/expectations/socialization...but if you drop me in a foreign culture...the "noble savage" home...i'm still gonna get frustrated when i get frustrated here...and i'm still gonna have the same hangups that i do here...i'll have different resources, but it won't change who i *am*.

i think it's useful for us as parents to find other strategies and try to incorporate them in our lives...but it is also very important to remember that we are all beautifully unique. and what works brilliantly for some families is a disaster for another. it makes the most sense to take our cues from what *our* children need, not what OTHER children and families need in "other cultures". it's great for me to use babyslinging (which i learned from south america), but it's inaccurate to assume that it will solve my problems as a parent. it's another tool to try with my son and future children...but *they* will show me if it's a useful one for our family. some kids hate slings. it happens.

so....that's what i've been thinking.


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