# On Epidurals & FEelings Twords Women Who Get Them



## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Why the negative attitude twords women who get epirudals? I see many posts here reflecting a very poor attitude twords women who get epidurals.

Why is this? Why be so negatively judgemental to a person getting pain relief? Do we carry the same attitude when a person takes a tylenol for a headache or novicane for a dental extraction?


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

I am guessing here, but perhaps many women don't like the idea that birth is a medical procedure that necessitates painkillers.

Y'know, birth is neither a headache nor a dental extraction, and maybe they feel that these comparisons denigrate birth.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

The reason I would never choose an epidural for a textbook normal delivery is because it is an invasive procedure that carries risks, IMO, too high to be justified. There are circumstances where I think that it's called for- a c-section, a mother with pre-eclampsia or chronic hypertension, and possibly an induced or augmented labour- but because something is warranted for a few, does not make it right for all.
Birth is NOT an illness. It is a normal process, though not an everyday one, and for the majority of people medical intervention is inappropriate and increases the likelihood of an adverse outcome.
FWIW, I tend to stay away from threads about normal hospital births, because I have nothing to offer,so I don't normally diss posters who choose that route. You haven't acknowledged that an epidural is any more risky than tylenol (that's paracetamol over here, right?) or that sometimes, they work TOO well and that leads to other problems, or the psychological impact of the way epidurals are sometimes offered. (Can we birth them? Erm... I _think_ so.)


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## Artisan (Aug 24, 2002)

I don't judge people that get them -- not at all. I totally understand why people do. I had one for my first birth. I think there are a variety of factors that have led to my thinking that epis are not as safe as people think, and that birth is not a medical event meant to be managed in the hospital. My biggest issue is with the lack of truly informed choice and the lack of evidence-based care that occurs in North America's obstetrical practices. Women are not told the true risks of the procedures. And I don't just mean the little spiel that anesthesiologist gives, I mean the true cascade of interventions that begins when you walk in the hospital door. Doctors themselves may not have researched them, as they are only practicing the way they were taught.

There is no question that epidurals have led to the skyrocketing rate of C-sections, which in turn, has poorer outcomes for mom and baby. In other industrialized nations where epis are not the norm, they have far better mom/baby outcomes than the US or Canada. I'm thinking of Western European countries where more than 60% of the women see midwives for their primary care and give birth at home or unmedicated.

I have many mainstream friends, and have had a hospital birth myself, and have heard story after story that goes something like this:
1. Arrive at hospital -- have cervical check and IV inserted
2. Get put on EFM and forced to lay on back (this is horrible, I have done it)
3. At 4cms, in so much pain request epidural
4. Epidural in place, water is broken to speed things along

At this point, the mom is forced to lay there in a position that does not facilitate a normal birth (on her back), for hours while she not allowed to eat and pumped full of IV fluids. Often the epi makes the woman nauseous or gives her the shakes (it did with me). She is now on the clock -- the baby needs to be born within a few hours since the water has been broken. The stress of being in an unfamiliar environment coupled with the bustle of strangers coming in and out of her room combined with the knowledge that she only has a certain amount of time and the fact that epis often lead to a labor slowdown create a huge amount of stress hormones. She may not feel stressed, but her brain does. Labor slows. Cervical checks follow (at which point, bacteria is introduced, which could lead to infection, as it did for my sister). Pitocin is started because the baby needs to be born and the contractions are not "adequate".

There are then a trillion variations of what happens next. Baby doesn't tolerate pit well -- turn off pit. Body is not contracting and changing cervix. C-section.

Mom reaches full dilation and pushes for two hours -- baby can't come out. C-section. (If mom had had control of her limbs she could have changed positions many times during labor to help the baby move down appropriately. The worst position for labor and birth is laying on your tailbone.)

Mom reaches full dilation, pushes for an hour, discovers baby's head is cocked to one side -- forceps and a large episiotomy are necessary.

Women are just told that a healthy baby is the most important thing, and how they get there doesn't really matter. Bull. For many women, myself included, unmedicated birth was the most empowering and awe-inspiring event of my life. I have never experienced a high like the one I had after giving birth to my second child -- I rode that high for several weeks. Women were meant to give birth -- just not under the conditions we have created for them. Women are being robbed of what it truly means to birth their babies, and they don't even know it's been taken from them.

Again, I'm not coming from a high-horse position. I have been at the hospital BEGGING for an epidural. It's not that I am stronger or better than other people. In fact, I felt the opposite many times, and kept reminding myself that somehow billions of women have had babies without epis and that I was going to get through it too. The thing I did differently was create the conditions under which a normal birth could take place, and that was outside of the hospital.


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## lilsishomemade (Feb 12, 2005)

What I don't agree with: routine administration of pitocin that almost always leads to an epidural....so often when we try to "force" our bodies to go faster than it wants to, complications arise, and the doctor will rush the patient to the OR for a c-section. Both of my sons, I had pitocin (first one I didn't know any better, second one I had to be induced early for sake of baby) and both times, the pain was about 10 x's worse than true labor, and I had an epidural. It's just that hospitals seem to do whatever they can to keep you from trusting your own body, and do whatever they tell you to, and I don't agree with that.

I also remember being pregnant with my first and my mom telling me almost everyday that the pain of natural childbirth was so bad, you'll wish you were dying....I mean, she had me so scared, I had decided long before he was born to get an epidural at the earliest possible moment, and I really don't appreciate that. It's taken me a long time to get past that fear she's given me, and she's never actually had natural childbirth, all of her births were induced.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Look, when you get the eppie, generally a cascade of other interventions follow. That's not what I wanted for my infants. I also don't think a needle near my spine is a good idea. I do try not to judge but.... I'm human and sometimes I do.


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

My irritation is with women who won't even give themselves a chance to experience the pain of labor....the ones who practically go in the door saying, "I want my epidural now!!!!! Get the anesthesiologist in here right away so I can relax!" The ones who exclaim, "Why should I have to experience even a twinge of pain, when I can be gloriously numb from the waist down while my child is born?" The ones who tell me, "You're CRAZY for refusing an epidural! Why in the world would you CHOOSE to have that kind of pain, when relief is available?!?!" Women who just ask for an epidural without a second thought to how it might affect their baby; without bothering to research the pros and cons of the medication and the procedure itself.

I realize that there ARE legit indications for an epidural, and I don't dispute them. Induction is a whole other issue in itself.


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *philomom*
Look, when you get the eppie, generally a cascade of other interventions follow. That's not what I wanted for my infants. I also don't think a needle near my spine is a good idea. I do try not to judge but.... I'm human and sometimes I do.









:


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## JBaxter (May 1, 2005)

I have had 3 epidurals and 3 very long hard labors. My shortest labor was 18 hours of contractions less than 7 min apart. My longest was 60hrs in and out of labor and I was exhausted. All 3 have been turned in an odd position ( face up or face side) With my first I just needed to sleep for a while the second was face up w/ 15 in head and 22 inlong and just shy of 9 lbs w/ all back labor I have had great OBs and I know w some other docs I probably would have had a c section. My 3rd had his head tilted back and was born face first his head was smaller 14.75 in. I have gone 12 hrs with the last 2 before getting an epidural I think that they are a great choice for women who are exhausted or im my case just at the end of what they can do.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

I think women who get epidurals are brave...

Brave to let a sharp object near such a sensitive area like the spinal column...

Sorry in my world, Sharp ojbjects and my spine are never to meet unless medically neccissary


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## Peony (Nov 27, 2003)

Nothing new to add, all you mamas said it already!


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

I agree with Pandora.

Also, getting medication for pain relief during a dental procedure affects only the person getting the relief. Having an epidural, besides increasing risks of cascading interventions as many others have said, may also affect the baby. Yes, of course, all doctors say that it doesn't, but I haven't seen any conclusive evidence that convinces me it is absolutely safe for my baby to have my body pumped full of narcotics while the baby is still inside my body.

I find it ironic that so many women will agonize over every Tylenol they consider taking during pregnancy, but the minute contractions begin they are screaming, "give me drugs!"

Childbirth pain is _good_ pain, it's for a good cause and it's in the best interest of your baby to keep your body as free of chemicals and drugs as you can. You need to feel the pain in order to understand how your body is performing and coping with labor and delivery. That is not the case with dental procedure pain.


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## crunchymomof2 (May 23, 2005)

I had an epidural to go along with my induced labor.







: I agree that it should not be routine to have that done. It makes scar tissue and my back has bothered me there ever since I had it done and its been over 2 years. If you dont have the option of pain relief it is so much easier to labor and birth without it. If you cant feel your body it makes it harder respond to what its telling you to do. If only birth in the hospital wasnt made the norm we would all still be home birthing unless there were a true need which is what the hospital is for. Hope that made sense.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
I find it ironic that so many women will agonize over every Tylenol they consider taking during pregnancy, but the minute contractions begin they are screaming, "give me drugs!"









: I too am amazed by the people who were even more careful than I was at not eating things like blue cheese and caesar dressing (although both are pastuerized here) but scoffed at the idea of natural birth as more than trying to earn a merit badge. I tried to go without meds with my first two but wasn't aware that I was trying to have a natural birth while having an unnatural labor thanks to the pit etc. Once I was able to stop the cascade of interventions I did have two unmedicated births. Like PPs it was an awesome experience for me but beyond that I think it's very important for my babies. So there's a reason I do it and I feel a little sad for women who don't realize that it matters or just don't care. BTW last time I checked Tylenol doesn't give you a migraine that lasts for several weeks. Not a reasonable comparison at all.


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

I don't like getting caught up in all that judgement...I just can't help but be a bit







: by women who "can't be bothered" with the birth process so they get the epi and watch soap operas (I've had friends who did this). It doesn't help things when many women who get epis talk about us who don't want them as if we're egotistical and are trying to be "heros" or "prove something"









Quote:

I feel a little sad for women who don't realize that it matters or just don't care.
I agree


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## Mallory (Jan 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
Why is this? Why be so negatively judgemental to a person getting pain relief? Do we carry the same attitude when a person takes a tylenol for a headache or novicane for a dental extraction?


I think that most women do/did the best they can.

But I also don't take asprins for headaches or other pains, I try to treat the problem, not the symptom. The pain is a way my body tells me what is wrong.

Surgury, dental or obstetrical or any other reason, does need pain killers though. That is my mind and my doctor overriding any messages from my body, because in this case we have decided a more invasive method is necessary.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Well when I was pregnant with DD, I had the worst horribly hormone induced migraine headache known to mankind. I was paralized on one side of my body. Can't treat the problem there...my body needed those hormones to bake a baby. My MW gave me a NST at the hospital to make sure it wasn't CV related. my BP was WAAAAY low, and the on call neurologist was flabbergasted.

They gave me a shot of Demerol and Gravol and sent me home. Told me next time to take Tylonol 3 at the first sign of an impending migraine. I did, and I will for the next pregnancy as well.

I think it's progesterone. Had the same migraines the days I got my depo shot.. I get managable headaches during my LP...


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## charmcitymama (Jul 6, 2005)

I should stay away from MDC. I had an epidural with my dd (it was wonderful!) and have been contemplating unmedicated birth for this next birth for various reasons. I am leaning away from it as I find some of these posts so offensive. Epidurals really are awesome! Last chance to sleep or get some rest before pushing.









Also, does anyone know anyone paralyzed by an epidural or a baby with brain damage? I have never heard of anyone actually having that happen, have you?


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

I know a woman who almost died from extreme blood pressure drop as a result of the epidural.

ETA: I am being sincere when I say those who get epidurals are much braver women than I.

In *MY* world, sharp pointy things and *MY* Spinal column Do not mix. Whatever YOU choose to do with YOUR spinal column is totally YOUR choice.

You can't deny the fact that an Epidural is something SHARP going near your spinal column.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *charmcitymama*
I should stay away from MDC. I had an epidural with my dd (it was wonderful!) and have been contemplating unmedicated birth for this next birth for various reasons. I am leaning away from it as I find some of these posts so offensive. Epidurals really are awesome! Last chance to sleep or get some rest before pushing.









Also, does anyone know anyone paralyzed by an epidural or a baby with brain damage? I have never heard of anyone actually having that happen, have you?

That doesn't make much sense...you don't want a natural birth because some people post offensive things? Part of being an educated informed mother is doing research on the effects of anything you consent to giving to your child--not basing your decision on whether you find people's posts offensive. Heck, if people did that, you'd see a lot more "I circumcized my son because people were so adament against circing here". The logic doesn't make sense.

As someone who had an epidural 40 hours into a 53 hour induction, I can tell you that epidurals are NOT awesome. I lost feeling (complete feeling) for everything below the epi spot--it was only supposed to be a walking epi. I got to sit on a bedpan on my bed in front of several nurses all forcing me to pee in front of them. Then, I got to push for 3 1/2 hours while my baby was in distress, swallowing merconium because I was pushing like heck and his head was tilted sideways and stuck. Could I feel that? Nope--I pushed when the nurses said to. By the end of the pushing, I was so exhausted I couldn't move, and the baby hadn't dropped down at all. The pushes were wasted--I had 2 nurses, my doula, and my husband all trying to hold me up so that I could get a little push out. In the end, my baby had to be taken out via vacuum extraction, which came flying off his head 3 times resulting in a huge knot on his head, probable neck and headaches (he couldn't move his neck for weeks)...oh, and nursing difficulties because he was in so much pain. Oh, and sensory integration disfunction, probably in large part due to his traumatic enterence into the world. Oh, and the episiotomy I had to have after the doctor tried to insert the vacuum, causing a 3rd degree tear (before the episiotomy). I *still* have scar tissue from that, causing a tear during routine pelvic exams.

Just for a little break before pushing. This time, I know it's just not worth it. My body can do it without the cascade of interventions...and my baby will probably be better off without it.


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## mandib50 (Oct 26, 2004)

i too try not to judge as i know every woman is doing their best at any given time. and of course, epidurals do have their place in birth.

my problem is that i don't think women are making informed choices when it comes to epidurals. i also think that pain does have a place in birth which has so many positive benefits for both the mother and baby that i can't help but wonder why so many women wouldn't like to experience natural birth.

from a feminist stand point i see epidurals as a way to prevent women from claiming their power as birthing mama's and to reap the personal benefits that come from giving birth without medication which could ultimately change our culture. not only which, it's another way of making sure that a medicalized culture of birth is the norm and this culture discourages women from choosing midwives and having homebirths (because you know, we wouldn't want to have women trusting their bodies and having other women supporting that notion).

also, i think women and babies are used as guinea pigs when it comes to birth and drugs and that makes me feel very uncomfortable. what does that say about how we value women and babies?

mandi


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## nitemarehippygirl (Jun 11, 2004)

i had an epidural. i waited it out as long as i could, but in the end, i took it, and i'm not sorry i did. unfortunately the epidural pump malfunctioned, and as it was, i still felt plenty. i had a fairly short labor, but the actual birth was hard. the baby's head was turned kind of at a wierd angle, and he was too big. i pushed and pushed, and in the end i ended up with an enormous episiotomy and a 4th degree tear. i'm not sure i could have withstood all of that without pain meds.

i have a great deal of respect for women who have unmedicated births, and i hope that in the future, my birthing experience won't be so traumatic and medicalized, but i still feel i did the right thing for me at that time. as it was, the baby was born perfectly healthy, despite being about a month early.

sometimes things don't go as planned, and you have to do what seems right at the time...


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

I agree with you 100% Mandi!!!









Charmcitymama- please don't let the opinions of others (however offensive as they might be to you) affect YOUR choice- there is a LOT of judgement on both sides of the fence. Just block us all out if you want and do your own research and search your own heart as to what you want out of your birth experience- I'm sorry if my post in particular offended you.









Here is a great article I found when I was just starting to research natural birth that really helped me: http://www.pregnancy.com.au/labour_hormones.htm


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

Charmcitymama - you say that many of these posts offended you. Can you be more specific? What, exactly, offends you? I know that, for me, when I am confident in my choices I almost never find myself offended by people who disagree with me.

Ally -







Hugs to you! So sorry things became so difficult for you and your sweet little baby.

Mandi - you made some very interesting points and I appreciated seeing your perspective. I have to say that I agree with everything you said.


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## lilsishomemade (Feb 12, 2005)

charmcitymama, I'm sorry you've felt offended, I'd encourage you to do research and then decide what's best for you based on *that* and not on other people's opinions (offensive or not). My frustration is at the medical society in general, along with people who've never experienced natural birth condemning those that have/want to. I've had two births, both with epidurals. Yes, it was something that I needed, the pitocin labor was so extreme, I couldn't even think/concentrate on anything. This time, no pitocin.

I do not know anyone personally who has been paralyzed by getting an epi. I do have a good friend who has nerve damage because of hers. She has problems with her legs. She also has some serious scar tissue at the site of the epi, and it causes her bad back pain.

It's *very* common to get a spinal headache. This is incredibly common, and can last for weeks. They try to combat this by making sure you've had a bag of IV fluids run into your vein. This is also supposed to prevent a drop in blood pressure from the epi, but if you're dehydrated at all, this may not be enough. Unfortunately, they don't really account for that (I'm a nurse....I very much remember the routine). That's why once you have an epidural, you have to stay in place, and they keep a bp cuff on your arm to monitor bp every 5-10 minutes (which, to me, was very annoying during pushing, yk?)


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## FitMama (Jul 20, 2003)

I don't judge women who opt for epidurals. But do I want a medal for my own drug-free birth? Heck yeah! I was sooo proud of myself after I delivered my son; I was superwoman that day. And yes, I bragged about it all over town. I wanted everyone to know: WOMEN CAN DO THIS!

I've had my appendix removed and I've had my wisdom teeth pulled. Was I anesthetized for those procedures? Of course, because *procedures* were being *done* to me. But labor is a different story. My body was doing the work on its own. So to me, there really seemed to be no need for interventions (particularly the pharmaceutical variety) because my body would find its own way.

Now at one point, post-transition, I became aware that perhaps my bladder was full and might slow down my progress. Since I've had all kinds of invasive urinary tract diagnostic work done in the past, I just told the nurses to go ahead and catheterize me and get the pee out. I tolerated that because I've had much worse done (cystoscopy) and at that point, I just wanted to rest before pushing, not get up and use the toilet.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

I've had 2 transfers from out-of-hospital birth and 2 epidurals for 2 long hard, not-very straightforward-labors.

I think it's great that epidurals exist, and also great when women can give birth without them.

Lots of things in life are painful- ear infections, dental abcesses, birthing and dying are all very painful. Whether each of these is a "disease" or a "natural process" is debateable- but all I know is without painkillers life would be much more painful. I am grateful that painkillers are available.

I think that 99% of people in this world are doing the best they can 99% of the time. It's just silly to imagine other people are simply being lazy or selfish with their decisions- they are just doing the bgest they can with what they have.


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## Anguschick1 (Jul 25, 2003)

Just a quick note that my best friend's sister got an epidural and "crashed." They tried giving her some drugs to bring her bp back up and it didn't work. They ended up doing an emergency section & having to revive her on the table 2x. Prior to the epidural, she was doing great, she was just tired.

I was induced w/ds for pih (210/110 at one point). Had the mag sulfate, pitocin, arom, catheter, pressure stockings, the works all hooked up. I somehow lasted 24 hours before asking for the epidural. BP crashed, someone hustled dh out of the room w/no explanation, they gave me a cocktail of drugs and my bp came back. I'm not sure how I was able to actually give consent for the epi as I was seeing leprechauns bouncing from bubble to bubble all around my room while singing Bare Naked Ladies songs, but I guess that's besides the point, after all, there's no harm in just an epi, right? Ds was born blue and limp, but we'll never know which cocktail of drugs it was that made that happen. This time we're having a homebirth and an epi won't be happening. My body can and will birth this baby naturally.

W/ds's pregnancy we took Bradley classes. She got an epidural w/her first and ended up w/a migraine that lasted for the first 3 WEEKS of her baby's life. 3 WEEKS, flat on her back in the dark.

That's 3 births w/epidurals at 3 different hospitals at 3 different times that all ended w/some sort of "isolated bad reaction."

The same women in my circle of friends/family who look down on me for having a 1/2 glass of wine here or there while pregnant are the first ones to ask for an epidural. Why is that? Oh - because the dr said that wine is bad and the epidural is great. And we all know how much doctors know.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I don't look down on women for getting epidurals...although I'll admit I don't get why people insist on them before they even know how bad the pain will be or won't be.

But, I agree with the poster who said that they're braver women than me! I've had to have a needle in my spine twice - for my last two c-sections. And, it terrifies me even more than the scalpel. If it weren't that I want dh to be there to see his children being born and that I have such an awful reaction to general anesthetic, I'd probably opt to be knocked out, just so they'd leave my spine alone. I can't imagine allowing it for anything short of surgery.

Plus, my mom had a bad spinal headache with me (c-section), and my sister had back pain for weeks after delivering my nephew with an epidural. I just don't see the attraction. I'd much rather have the severe pain _before_ I have a hungry newborn to deal with.

I also hate the numbness that goes along with anesthesia. I don't get freezing for fillings and such at the dentist, either...only for my root canal and my extraction. It's not because I like the pain - I just like it better than having feeling removed from parts of my body.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

I"m glad someone agrees with me regarding sharp objects + spinal column = bad mojo

Since you've BTDT, it carries more weight and doesnt make those who do think that way look like total nutters


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Getting back to the OP: Because this is a haven for those who choose to have drug-free births. You can go to many parenting boards on the web that will support drugs in childbirth, but very few are a place where women can come to talk about midwives, natural birth, homebirth, and related topics.

I had two epidurals and while the reasons were personal and IMO very justified, I'm not going to expect people here to applaud me for it.


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## homemademomma (Apr 1, 2004)

epidurals have their place- maternal exhaustion, c/s, hypertension, and some others, but the risks associated with it (spinal headache, life long back problems, increased episiotomy and vacuum extraction rates, poor sucking in the baby, to name a few) far outweight the benefits in an otherwise normal birth. however, if i had been in a hospital for my birth, i am 98% sure i would have gotten and epi. i am a mw student and know all the dangers of pain meds and the benefits of natural birth, but in the moment, it hurts like a sonofabitch, and i dont know if i would have been able to say no. not to mention the added pain of being on my back, efm, etc. so i do not judge women who have hospital births with epis. but i do wish women (and care providers) would trust their bodies enough to ler nature take its course- and i dont think epis should be offered to everyone! nak


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
I"m glad someone agrees with me regarding sharp objects + spinal column = bad mojo

Since you've BTDT, it carries more weight and doesnt make those who do think that way look like total nutters









It's a visceral reaction. When I was taking prenatal classes 12 years ago, they showed us pictures of various "normal" interventions and what newborns looked like (eg. "stork bites", cradle cap, baby zits, etc.). One of them was a diagram showing how an epidural was inserted. As soon as I saw it, I turned to my ex and told him that I didn't care if I was pleading for pain relief, there was no way he should let them put one of those in my spine. I think he thought I was nuts, but I've never changed my feelings about it.


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## Noisette's_Maman (May 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skellbelle*
My irritation is with women who won't even give themselves a chance to experience the pain of labor....the ones who practically go in the door saying, "I want my epidural now!!!!! Get the anesthesiologist in here right away so I can relax!"

I think that part of this though is that we're conditioned by so many people around us (medical types, friends, family) to fear the pain...we're told early on that we won't be able to take it. It's hard to feel self-confident when everyone around you seems to be saying it'll be hell and there's no way you'll be able to do it without pain relief medication.

That was my experience anyway.


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## Artisan (Aug 24, 2002)

To the PP who asked about long term complications from epis... most people turn out perfectly fine. But the risks are real. My grandmother had one that wasn't childbirth related, and she ended up with a foot that was permanently crippled. She could never take more than a few steps without assistance again.

Anesthesiologists are very skilled, and most do a good job. I just saw a show called Resident Life on TLC, and there was an anes. resident who was being interviewed. She said, "This is now hour 28 into my 36 hour shift of doing epidurals." Doctors are only human, and when we ask too much of them (like working 36 hours with little sleep), things happen.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I actually get paranoid, too. I've had a sore foot off and on since my last c-section, and I find myself wondering if it's related to the spinal (not an epi, but relevant, imo - at least re: getting a needle stuck in my spine). I really think it has more to do with the lack of _real_ exercise since the surgery and the weight I was carrying at the end. But...sometimes I wonder.


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## Artisan (Aug 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *charmcitymama*
I should stay away from MDC. I had an epidural with my dd (it was wonderful!) and have been contemplating unmedicated birth for this next birth for various reasons. I am leaning away from it as I find some of these posts so offensive. Epidurals really are awesome! Last chance to sleep or get some rest before pushing.









Also, does anyone know anyone paralyzed by an epidural or a baby with brain damage? I have never heard of anyone actually having that happen, have you?

I'm sorry you were offended... if it was something I said, that was not my intention.

Don't let people's responses on a message board dictate your birth decisions, though. If this were a mainstream board and everyone said, "Get the epi -- you're a fool not to!", would that make you want to have a natural birth?


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## SKK (Apr 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
I've had to have a needle in my spine twice - for my last two c-sections. And, it terrifies me even more than the scalpel. If it weren't that I want dh to be there to see his children being born and that I have such an awful reaction to general anesthetic, I'd probably opt to be knocked out, just so they'd leave my spine alone. I can't imagine allowing it for anything short of surgery.
... I also hate the numbness that goes along with anesthesia.... It's not because I like the pain - I just like it better than having feeling removed from parts of my body.

Exactly, I totally agree. The worst part of my c-sections, to me, was the fact that I couldn't feel/control my lower half after the surgery was over. I hated it!

I don't think the epidural per se is bad, or that people are "wrong" for choosing it. I just don't think people are truly informed of all the potential negative side effects, and that's a problem.


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## crunchymomof2 (May 23, 2005)

I was reading what the pp said about her grandmothers foot. With my second pregnancy I kept getting a pinched nerve that went to my uterus (sounds weird i know). It felt like someone was shocking a portion of my uterus. I'd never had that problem before. I had to make several trips to the chiropractor. I have wondered if it had something to do with the epidural because that is the part of the spine it would have been inserted in.


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

I think you need to differentiate between women who get them as a matter of course, and those who get them because they need them.

There's a lot to be said for the compassionate use of drugs, as opposed to gratuitous use of them.

I didn't want to expose my baby to narcotics before she was even born, but in the end, despite my best efforts, she was. I regret that, but I do know that I tried extremely hard to avoid it.

As my midwife said to me - they're a tool, and there's nothing worng with using a tool when it's needed.

But OH MAN!!! needle, spinal column - I'm so with you! I don't understand people who rave about epidurals - it's horrible, and nothing like having a baby - you're lying there, numb, worried about the next step (because in asking for an epidural I knew I opening myself wide open for a c-section), alone, because everyone has gone off to let you get some sleep (ha! I slept better after the pitocin started contractions and I could finally stop walking - my doula watched me sleep and said she could hear my breathing slow and deepen with each contraction, even though I was asleep!!!). I still marvel at the fact that I actually am an 'epidural person'.


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## celrae (May 3, 2005)

Woman talk about this subject with so much superiority, fear, and judgment that I found it impossible to get a balanced and educated perspective on the subject until I went though it. I have heard women on both sides make sweeping statements that are very offensive. If we want women to make smart educated decisions I think there is a need to examine how we talk about this subject. The OP wanted to know why there was judgment, it the same reason no matter what the subject is, fear, need to defend one's choices, and seeing the world form only their personal perspective. I agree with PP that most people try to do their best with the information that they have, that is why smart nonjudgmental conversation on this subject is so important. Also, most MDC members do not try to judge any individual person and their decisions, I just think they feel strongly about a subject and it may come across in the wrong way.


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## BensMom (May 4, 2002)

I don't judge the women, I judge the "system." The mandatory, bed confined, monitoring that all hospitals require to some extent. Most women who do not have a doula/do extensive research do not know that they can request intermittent monitoring (btdt) and just lay on the bed *in the one position that picks up the baby's HR the best* and suffer. What other choice do they have?

The nurses and Drs who play the "dead baby card" at every turn. Oh, you want to walk around? WEll, we really need to monitor this baby, which is more important than your silly *desire* to move during labor....

The friends and media and family members who relish in sharing grisley stories of who had the most miserable birth experience, who almost died and who's OB is the biggest hero....

The idea that the medical establishment pushes that out-of-hospital birth is risky and you are taking chances with your babies life if you even consider it...

The tests, tests, and more tests that pick up every little cyst and bone and blip on the developing fetus and turn it into a huge batch of worry for the mom. Or the GD tests and others that scare moms into fearing the gigantic babies they have inside....

The legal system that holds even good doctors accountable for every little variation in nature and has everyone scared to keep their hands off of a laboring mother....

The insurance system that will pay 100% for a birth at a hospital with a 40+% Csection rate, but refuses coverage for a homebirth....

Those are things I judge. For the moms themselves, I offer my ideas, my support (as a doula) and my information. Most choose not to accept it, because they "love" their doctors and they trust the nurses at the hospital will take care of them.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mandib50*
from a feminist stand point i see epidurals as a way to prevent women from claiming their power as birthing mama's and to reap the personal benefits that come from giving birth without medication which could ultimately change our culture. not only which, it's another way of making sure that a medicalized culture of birth is the norm and this culture discourages women from choosing midwives and having homebirths (because you know, we wouldn't want to have women trusting their bodies and having other women supporting that notion).

This is my issue with it right here. It's the big picture that bothers me, not necessarily each individual.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe*
But OH MAN!!! needle, spinal column - I'm so with you! I don't understand people who rave about epidurals - it's horrible, and nothing like having a baby - you're lying there, numb...

This is one of the reasons I have trouble seeing my c-sections as "births". I mean...except for a little bit of a tugging sensation sometimes, I felt _nothing_ when my babies were delivered. That just doesn't seem like a birth to me.


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## celestialdreamer (Nov 18, 2004)

There have been alot of great posts that I agree with, so I'm not going to re-post the same ideas again. I just wanted to tell a little of my experience. I was induced with my dd and truly wanted a natural childbirth because I believed that it was safer for us both. I was pressured into one by the nurses after about 18 hrs of labor when I was having a very weak moment during a bad contraction. Unfortunately the epidural only worked for about 10 minutes, then I went from trying to take a little nap to feeling the strong contractions (they turned the pit up once the epi started). They took out the first epi and 'insisted' on putting in another one. That one made my feet numb and heavy but I could feel ALL of the pain from my knees up. So I was stuck there laying in bed with excrutiating pit induced contractions. My dd's heartrate did not do well after the pit was started, so I ended up with an oxygen mask. Also my labor slowed down tremendously and I was told I'd probably have to have a csection. Luckily I ended up dialating a bit more then and being able to deliver vaginally after a 27 hour labor. My dd was extremely sleepy and had sucking problems which we believe were from the epidural. She ended up the Children's hospital at 6 days old from dehydration from refusing to nurse. It took 4 weeks of intensive work with a lactation consultant and a speech pathologist (for her sucking problems) before she was able to nurse properly.

My opinion is that there are real SIGNIFICANT risks to an epidural. I have seen them first hand. After my dd was born I decided I would NEVER go through that again. I would take the pain of childbirth with no drugs 10 times over compared to seeing my dd hooked up to monitors in the hospital because she couldn't nurse. I regret my decision to have a hospital birth in the first place because I was very much badgered into making decisions when I was not capable of thinking straight. The baby I am pregnant with now will be a homebirth with caring midwife. I truly believe that women can give birth naturally, because our bodies were designed for it. Epidurals should be saved for the rare cases that really need it.


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## celestialdreamer (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BensMom*
I don't judge the women, I judge the "system." The mandatory, bed confined, monitoring that all hospitals require to some extent. Most women who do not have a doula/do extensive research do not know that they can request intermittent monitoring (btdt) and just lay on the bed *in the one position that picks up the baby's HR the best* and suffer. What other choice do they have?

The nurses and Drs who play the "dead baby card" at every turn. Oh, you want to walk around? WEll, we really need to monitor this baby, which is more important than your silly *desire* to move during labor....

The friends and media and family members who relish in sharing grisley stories of who had the most miserable birth experience, who almost died and who's OB is the biggest hero....

The idea that the medical establishment pushes that out-of-hospital birth is risky and you are taking chances with your babies life if you even consider it...

The tests, tests, and more tests that pick up every little cyst and bone and blip on the developing fetus and turn it into a huge batch of worry for the mom. Or the GD tests and others that scare moms into fearing the gigantic babies they have inside....

The legal system that holds even good doctors accountable for every little variation in nature and has everyone scared to keep their hands off of a laboring mother....

The insurance system that will pay 100% for a birth at a hospital with a 40+% Csection rate, but refuses coverage for a homebirth....

Those are things I judge. For the moms themselves, I offer my ideas, my support (as a doula) and my information. Most choose not to accept it, because they "love" their doctors and they trust the nurses at the hospital will take care of them.









: I agree with that completely!


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## celrae (May 3, 2005)

Quote:

This is one of the reasons I have trouble seeing my c-sections as "births". I mean...except for a little bit of a tugging sensation sometimes, I felt nothing when my babies were delivered. That just doesn't seem like a birth to me.
I don't understand not wanting to claim your c-section as a birth. You did the best job you could (You Birthed), would you have rather died like many women did 100 years ago?? I may be missunderstanding this post so I am sorry if I did.


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## Artisan (Aug 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *celrae*
I don't understand not wanting to claim your c-section as a birth. You did the best job you could (You Birthed), would you have rather died like many women did 100 years ago?? I may be missunderstanding this post so I am sorry if I did.

Come on now... that's clearly not what she's saying. At no time did she insinuate that she would have prefered to die rather than have C-sections. She's just giving her experience.


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## TurboClaudia (Nov 18, 2003)

I am wondering what the original poster thinks of the responses so far... ???

My personal feelings about epidurals are along the lines of "nothing near my spinal cord, thanks." However, I also recognize the usefulness of epidurals for cesarean births, for prolonged labors when mama perhaps could use some respite or other labor situations. I choose to believe that most mamas here at MDC have done their research and are making the best choice for them based on their circumstances. My issue with many women in our culture wanting epidurals "as soon as they walk in the hospital doors" is that they may or may not know the risks. I also have issues with partners wanting the mama to get an epidural when perhaps the mama isn't entirely convinced that's what she wants, or even worse, partners making jokes that they want the epidural.

To the original poster, I'm sad that you are feeling judgment in some places here at MDC about women who choose epidurals, but I'm not sure if there actually is judgment happening or just your interpretation. I suppose if you gave us an example of where you read judgment, it would help clarify. I did read a comment of yours on another thread referring to epidurals and immaturity, but when I read the original comment they could have been interpreted as completely separate thoughts. Any other examples you want to highlight? Or is it just a general feeling? MDC is a forum for natural family living, so it's going to be more non-intervention oriented...

~claudia


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *USAmma*
I had two epidurals and while the reasons were personal and IMO very justified, I'm not going to expect people here to applaud me for it.

I agree. I had two epidural births and one drug free birth. No IV either.









I don't deserve a medal for the drug and intervention free birth, and I don't expect applause for the epidural birth.

Then again, I don't need anyone here to give me any sort of thumbs up (or down) for my choices. I mean, really, who is anyone here to decide whether what I chose was "legit"?

I figure this message board is NFL, and an epidural doesnt jive. I dont take it personal, kwim?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *celrae*
I don't understand not wanting to claim your c-section as a birth. You did the best job you could (You Birthed), would you have rather died like many women did 100 years ago?? I may be missunderstanding this post so I am sorry if I did.

I'd actually love to claim them (I've had three) as births. They just don't feel that way to me at all...partly because of the anesthetic (no - I wouldn't want to have a c-section without it!). I just find that feeling of numbness feels...wrong. It feels as though I wasn't even there for my own children's arrivals into the world. It's something I've been struggling with for a long time. I certainly wouldn't have rather died - but neither am I convinced that was likely in my situation.


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## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)

This article on midwifery today is very informative about drug use during labor. I don't think that the risks of having an epi are worth it in most cases.

I knew a girl that had her baby while I was 6 mo pregnant. She tells me "Definitely get an epidural! Don't be afraid to get it done, because you will not regret it!" Well, of course I didn't regret it, because I didn't need one so I didn't get one. Why do people act like the pain of childbirth is such a hassle? I mean, yeah, it isn't fun, but my body is doing something really amazing, yk?

Also, the women I have known who had epidurals either didn't bf because their babies were so crashed out when they were born, or they had an incredibly hard time starting even with a lot of help.


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## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *charmcitymama*
I should stay away from MDC. I had an epidural with my dd (it was wonderful!) and have been contemplating unmedicated birth for this next birth for various reasons. I am leaning away from it as I find some of these posts so offensive. Epidurals really are awesome! Last chance to sleep or get some rest before pushing.

As far as natural childbirth goes, in many cases if the mother is very tired, after she is finished dilating, she will have a period of time that is contraction free, so that she can rest and have enough energy to push the baby out. I only had a couple minutes that were contraction free, but I wasn't really tired anyhow. It was very nice, though, even with the nurse staring at me wondering why I wasn't pushing yet. :LOL Next time, there will be no nurse! hehe.


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## charmcitymama (Jul 6, 2005)

Reader, I recently read a thread on a mainstream board that was talking about epidurals and everyone was heck yeah. I was turned off by that. I think I am more middle of the road. I like to have choices. I still am going to aim for natural for my own personal reasons.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

My first and so far only childbirth was a horrible exp. I was also given pitocin when I was at 8cm... but I never did have an epidural.

But with that said, I wonder if that was actually foolish on my part. I lay there in complete agony and for what? To carry some sort of badge of honor? It could also be argued that having a difficult childbirth could be hard on the fetus as the mother's BP is elevated and the mother of course undergoes other stresses due to the pain of childbirth.

With comments such as going painfree is going through a real childbirth (bascially saying women who choose epidurals are not allowed to say they gave birth







: ) and so on is sort of disgusting to me. Just because you felt MORE pain doesn't make you any better than anyone else.

You mention the risks of having an epidural. There are also risks getting into your car and driving on the highway. There are also risks in having a homebirth.

While childbirth is considered "natural" - so is death. Now while I am aware that there cannot be an equal comparison between the process of death and childbirth, it doesn't mean that all things natural are positive or that all things natural feel good. Nor does it mean we should be forced to me a marytr.

I guess what I am getting at is this. I notice a lot of very very negative attitudes on this forum twords epidurals and the women that get them. To judge these woman is very unfair IMO. What about liberating women? What about freedom of choice and the freedom to be who we are, not what others tell us that we should be.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Just in case any of us need reminding, heres'a link to some of the risks involved with eppies:
http://www.gentlebirth.org/archives/epirisks.html


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
What about freedom of choice and the freedom to be who we are, not what others tell us that we should be.

You don't have to allow anyone to make choices for you.

Make your choices, and own them.

Just don't be surprised or defensive when others disagree.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skellbelle*
You don't have to allow anyone to make choices for you.

Make your choices, and own them.

Just don't be surprised or defensive when others disagree.

While I "agree" with natural childbirth and practice it myself... my issue is something different. My issue is the terrible attitude of natural birthing mothers twords women who seek pain relief during labor.


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## homemademomma (Apr 1, 2004)

i think that babies have the right to be born without drugs in their system, whenever possible. epidurals can be life saving and wonderful, but their use (and the use of other drugs and interventions) in normal labors does the baby a disservice, imo. epidurals cause discoordinated sucking in babies. narcotics cause dopey babies and sleepy moms. what a poopy way to start your life on the outside, imo. epis and other pain relief (as well as efm etc) should be reserved for cases of true need.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
While I "agree" with natural childbirth and practice it myself... my issue is something different. My issue is the terrible attitude of natural birthing mothers twords women who seek pain relief during labor.

I dunno. It happens the other way around, too.

Even your comment about being a "martyr" for natural childbirth ain't exactly spotlessly neutral. I've heard homebirth denigrated as "naive" "unsanitary" "ignorant" et cetera.

What are you gonna do? I've had an epidural, but I see no problem with having some of my birth assumptions challenged. I'd head over to babycenter if I wanted to have people pat me on the head for it.


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## lilsishomemade (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:

With comments such as going painfree is going through a real childbirth (bascially saying women who choose epidurals are not allowed to say they gave birth ) and so on is sort of disgusting to me.
Actually, the ladies were talking about being strapped down on an operating table and not participating at all in the birth of their children. And, they were talking about their own feelings about their own births, not that anyone who gets a c/s isn't allowed to say they gave birth. Women who give birth vag are an important part of childbirth, and they are very much active in the process. I've never given birth without an epi, but I very much know that I've been through childbirth!! Those ladies weren't giving a judgement, just saying how they felt about their own experiences, let's not attack them for that.


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## lorijds (Jun 6, 2002)

I think most posters here have made clear that it isn't really an issue, if a woman gets an epidural. It is the fact that the established medical practice is to routinely offer them, and to do so without offering a woman full understanding of the consequences.

As a nurse, yes I have seen women have very severe complications from an epidural. I personally have not seen anyone die from one, but our local hospital has. i worked for years with a nurse who got an infection at her epidural site, and spent the first four weeks of her baby's life in the ICU of a large research hospital 50 miles away.

From the insider's point of view, I feel like epidurals are routinely offered and even pushed because it is easier to manage the woman's labor. Staffing at hospitals is very tight. A woman who lays in bed and watches tv is a heck of alot easier to take care of than a woman who needs you in there for every contraction, talking her through it, rubbing her back, supporting her. Who would employ all the anesthesiologists if we didn't have a 90% epidural rate at our local hospital? It is very much about management and money, NOT about compassionate pain relief for women.

I am no friend of epidurals. I think they are a gateway into the cascade of interventions that hurts more than it helps. I also think they are an amazing thing in some instances. There are some births where I think the only thing that prevented a c-section was the epidural. Letting mom sleep and rest while getting IV fluids was what was needed. Some women who are sexual abuse survivors find birth an empowering experience. For some of them, they find it a horrible experience; for those women, an epidural allows them to be more present for the birth, in a better headspace than they would be without it.

I am just sad that so many women want an epidural, or feel pushed into it, because of their own feelings of fear. Which is, of course, merely a reflection of societal feelings towards pain and women's bodies. I am sad that women do not give themselves the chance, or are not given the chance to birth how they were made to birth. I am happy that women have the opportunity for pain relief; I just wish it wasn't treated like the "best" option by the medical community, and that we as a medical community were more in tune to the idea that a good outcome is not just a live baby and live mama. A good outcome is a mother who is not only healthy, holding her healthy baby in her arms, but who also feels she was a part of a wonderful process. That she birthed on her terms, and she was supported. That she and her baby were honored, and her birth was treated as the sacred event it is. No matter the means, be they a UC or an elective C-section, or something in the middle; if all mamas felt that way after their births, I think our world would be a much better place.


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## Artisan (Aug 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
My first and so far only childbirth was a horrible exp. I was also given pitocin when I was at 8cm... but I never did have an epidural.

But with that said, I wonder if that was actually foolish on my part. I lay there in complete agony and for what? To carry some sort of badge of honor? It could also be argued that having a difficult childbirth could be hard on the fetus as the mother's BP is elevated and the mother of course undergoes other stresses due to the pain of childbirth.

With comments such as going painfree is going through a real childbirth (bascially saying women who choose epidurals are not allowed to say they gave birth







: ) and so on is sort of disgusting to me. Just because you felt MORE pain doesn't make you any better than anyone else.

You mention the risks of having an epidural. There are also risks getting into your car and driving on the highway. There are also risks in having a homebirth.

That sounds extremely difficult to have to lay in a hospital bed with pitocin. I would've had an epi, for sure. But natural birth is not just about going pain relief free -- it's about avoiding certain siutations to begin with. As the pps mentioned, it's about the obstetrical system that has been set up to expect women to 1) lay in a bed during birth, which is the worst place you can be, and 2) to have augmentation forced on them when things don't progress normally from having to lay in the bed, etc.

There are risks to everything in life. Nothing is risk free. But there are ways you can lower your risks. I do not go skydiving. I have eliminated that risk of death from my life. I drive a safe car with lots of airbags. I have lowered my risks of dying in a car accident. (As compared to, say, driving a Ford Festiva with no airbags.)


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## Jade2561 (Jun 12, 2005)

I had an epidural for my induced labor with dd but I would like a homebirth for my next birth because I know that I can labor & birth without drugs. I don't think that people who love/want drugs right away are "wrong" or "bad", but I feel sorry for them that they don't have enough confidence in their body's ability to labor naturally and normally.


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## Artisan (Aug 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lorijds*
I am just sad that so many women want an epidural, or feel pushed into it, because of their own feelings of fear. Which is, of course, merely a reflection of societal feelings towards pain and women's bodies. I am sad that women do not give themselves the chance, or are not given the chance to birth how they were made to birth. I am happy that women have the opportunity for pain relief; I just wish it wasn't treated like the "best" option by the medical community, and that we as a medical community were more in tune to the idea that a good outcome is not just a live baby and live mama. A good outcome is a mother who is not only healthy, holding her healthy baby in her arms, but who also feels she was a part of a wonderful process. That she birthed on her terms, and she was supported. That she and her baby were honored, and her birth was treated as the sacred event it is. No matter the means, be they a UC or an elective C-section, or something in the middle; if all mamas felt that way after their births, I think our world would be a much better place.


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

Quote:

I think women who get epidurals are brave... Brave to let a sharp object near such a sensitive area like the spinal column... Sorry in my world, Sharp ojbjects and my spine are never to meet unless medically neccissary
Yeah that! No needles near my beloved spinal cord, thankyouverymuch.

Of course there is a time and a place for compassionate use of pain relieving drugs, but in the end I think that women are not given full disclosure of the true ramifications of the use of epidurals and that to me is a huge concern. It's not the drugs themselves, it's the system and how they do not give all of the facts so that women can make informed choices for themselves.

That said, I do feel like I've received fairly negative comments from people when I say I'm giving birth at home. I've been called anything from a "martyr" and "crazy" at worst, and "adventurous" at best. I've had MEN (of all people) say that the best things about birth are a) epidural and b)demerol and that their best advice for me is to ask for the epidural the moment I walk in the door. I'm sorry but where is that darn rolling eyes smiley when I need it? Then of course when I say that I'm planning a homebirth with a midwife, they sometimes ask "why, when you can have drugs at the hospital?" Aargh.

I fully admit that I do judge people who have epidurals, but it's not really about the pain relieving aspect of it that bugs me. I judge them for not taking the time and making the effort to get the facts and to become fully informed about this very important decision. I can see many scenarios where there is truly a use for these 'tools' (and many women have written about their own stories in this thread). I am a firm believer that if the medical/pharma establishment helped to REALLY educate women on the repercussions of their choices, that the number of medicalized births would decrease dramatically.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lorijds*
Staffing at hospitals is very tight. A woman who lays in bed and watches tv is a heck of alot easier to take care of than a woman who needs you in there for every contraction, talking her through it, rubbing her back, supporting her. Who would employ all the anesthesiologists if we didn't have a 90% epidural rate at our local hospital? It is very much about management and money, NOT about compassionate pain relief for women.

The hospital staff ignored me... and I was pree and had other medical issues to boot... unless of course it was to come into the room to be rude to me because I was sitting up instead of laying flat on my back. I never got any sort of comfort (back rubbing, talking) or coaching from the hospital staff for my natural childbirth... in fact I was treated really nasty by my first nurse - so bad I told her she was fired and to get the hell out of my room. The next nurse was very nice but didn't coach me either. So on that note, I doubt a hospital would employ douals for each woman giving birth...


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## WinterBaby (Oct 24, 2002)

I did that intervention free at home sort of birth, and I'll try to tell anyone that seems remotely interested that I think it's totally the way to go. I felt such a high after dd's birth, I guess it's made me passionate on the subject, lol. I hope my passion for freedom from intervention doesn't come across as being down on women who have them. Maybe sometimes passion for one thing can come across as judgemental of alternatives. Lemme tell ya though, if I have to be or wanted to be in the hospital birthing, I'd get the epidural. Maybe some other drugs besides. I can't fathom handling the stress that busy enviorment would be to me while birthing otherwise.


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## TurboClaudia (Nov 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
My first and so far only childbirth was a horrible exp. I was also given pitocin when I was at 8cm... but I never did have an epidural.

But with that said, I wonder if that was actually foolish on my part. I lay there in complete agony and for what? To carry some sort of badge of honor? It could also be argued that having a difficult childbirth could be hard on the fetus as the mother's BP is elevated and the mother of course undergoes other stresses due to the pain of childbirth.

With comments such as going painfree is going through a real childbirth (bascially saying women who choose epidurals are not allowed to say they gave birth







: ) and so on is sort of disgusting to me. Just because you felt MORE pain doesn't make you any better than anyone else.

There is a big difference between experiencing pain and experiencing suffering. What you describe above sounds like it might be suffering. What I experienced with my own labor was simply pain, not suffering.

~claudia


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
I lay there in complete agony and for what? To carry some sort of badge of honor?

you were probably in such agony due to the pitocin and being in bed.

what for? for the baby, for myself (to avoid a higher chance of episiotomy, forceps, prolonged pushing, C-section, catheter, etc and to be able to experience the birth process and sensations fully rather than being partially numb or out of it with a spinal headache after the baby is born).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
It could also be argued that having a difficult childbirth could be hard on the fetus as the mother's BP is elevated and the mother of course undergoes other stresses due to the pain of childbirth.

a fetus is made to handle the stresses of normal labor- it's painful- that's why the body secretes endorphins- the baby also secretes endorphins and some adrenaline- these hormones then aid in the baby being able to breath easier and transition to the outside world easier. there is a critical interplay of hormones that goes on- mother and baby in a normal labor are both made to handle that- see http://www.pregnancy.com.au/labour_hormones.htm now pit. labor is a whole different story or very prolonged labors...I had a "difficult" labor myself due to some complications with scar tissue on my cervix and ds was fine Apgars of 9 and 10

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
You mention the risks of having an epidural. There are also risks getting into your car and driving on the highway. There are also risks in having a homebirth.

There are also risks in having a hospital birth (statistically hospital birth is more risky) one of them being interventions such as pitocin, epi, and all that usually follows. Birth has inherent risk- one way to reduce that risk is to not have an epi or any other drugs unless absolutely necessary.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
...it doesn't mean that all things natural are positive or that all things natural feel good. Nor does it mean we should be forced to me a marytr.

I have never felt like a martyr- giving birth naturally (although extremely painful due to some complications) was the empowering, liberating thing I have ever done in my life- I have so much more confidence in my body and in myself- it was a life changing experience for me. I never felt as though I "had to" give birth naturally- I wanted to experience birth fully and have confidence that my body could do what it was made to do. It hurt like a SOB but I wasn't "suffering" until the end and it was almost over anyway. It was just intense pain.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
What about liberating women? What about freedom of choice and the freedom to be who we are, not what others tell us that we should be.


I agree- sure all women have the freedom to choose what they want and that's great, the thing that makes MDC different is that people who really believe in natural birth are the majority here and we support each other because many of us experience nothing but being told to "get the epi", and that "we're crazy" in real life, so this is a haven for us to rant and vent about how much it sucks that the people we know aren't willing to do any research and then expect us who have educated ourselves to just "get the epi it's great!







"
In my opinion the most liberating thing in the world for me was learning about natural birth, realizing my body was capable of something so amazing without having to be poked, prodded, cut, or pumped full of drugs. To me there is nothing liberating about being treated like an invalid strapped down flat on my back to a bed with monitors and people telling me to "push push push" and not being in full control of my body.


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## Undercover Hippie (Sep 7, 2004)

LoveChild421:


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## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *charmcitymama*
Also, does anyone know anyone paralyzed by an epidural or a baby with brain damage? I have never heard of anyone actually having that happen, have you?

Yeah, actually I do. This woman was my neighbor when she became paralysed by an epidural (for those that are wondering, she got a blood clot at the insertion site which lead to permanent paralysis). It's rare, but it does happen. Her comment was 'it doesn't matter how rare it is when it is you'.

And as an L&D nurse, I can tell you that lesser complications are so common as to be considered 'routine'.


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## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lorijds*
From the insider's point of view, I feel like epidurals are routinely offered and even pushed because it is easier to manage the woman's labor. Staffing at hospitals is very tight. A woman who lays in bed and watches tv is a heck of alot easier to take care of than a woman who needs you in there for every contraction, talking her through it, rubbing her back, supporting her. Who would employ all the anesthesiologists if we didn't have a 90% epidural rate at our local hospital? It is very much about management and money, NOT about compassionate pain relief for women.

Having worked L&D for almost 5 years, I have to say







:. Great post.


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## Artisan (Aug 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
The hospital staff ignored me... and I was pree and had other medical issues to boot... unless of course it was to come into the room to be rude to me because I was sitting up instead of laying flat on my back. I never got any sort of comfort (back rubbing, talking) or coaching from the hospital staff for my natural childbirth... in fact I was treated really nasty by my first nurse - so bad I told her she was fired and to get the hell out of my room. The next nurse was very nice but didn't coach me either. So on that note, I doubt a hospital would employ douals for each woman giving birth...

This is horrible... no one deserves to be treated that way. Can I ask, then, why you are wanting another hospital birth?


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

I had an epidural...after 14 hours of active labor and having learned that I was still at a 3... I couldn't take it more.... I was given pitocin against my birth plan wishes... I really do think that without pitocin I could have done it naturally. But that's another issue...


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## massagemom (Apr 6, 2005)

i planned for a natural birth with a midwife at a hospital.

i went into labor at 2 a.m. after sleeping for about 1 hour. i was in labor for 24 hours and the baby was in a posterior position. i had access to a shower, massage, and a doula. nobody mentioned any interventions to me, i did not have an iv. the nurse held a waterproof monitor onto my belly to check the baby while i was in the shower so i didn't have to be on the bed. my husband and i took classes, read books and did everything we could think of during labor. my midwife has been practicing over 25 years.

i ended up with an epidural. after not being able to sit down, lay down or otherwise rest for over 24 hours, and not sleeping from the night before, i was exhausted. i had progressed only 1 centimeter in seven hours.

this thread doesn't bother me, b/c i think that judging someone is more harmful to the person judging than the person being judged. and next time, i plan on having a home birth. but i don't regret my hospital birth and don't regret that i used pain relief. i knew all the risks involved, and i hated being hooked up to the iv's, the cathether, and all the other "stuff". but i'm not going to beat myself up about it either, just b/c it's not "crunchy" to use pain relief during labor.


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

massagemom I hope you don't feel like any of us would judge you- I think most of us would have done the same thing in your situation- you tried your darndest- you were very informed. Your situation is much different than, say my friend who got the epi after an hour of contractions and talked on her cellphone til it was time to push...still I try hard not to judge her but rather the medical establishment that pushes that sort of mentality on us.


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

massagemom-your situation is completely different. again, it was compassionate use of pain relieving medication and you made the choice in a fully informed manner. crunchiness has nothing to do with it. so glad that you had the option to have the medication so that you could rest and birth your baby.

it makes my stomach turn to hear, over and over, the same stories from women: "my baby was too big", "i was overdue" leading to induction, leading to epidural, leading to "emergency c-section" or else somebody dies... then come to find out the baby was barely 7 lbs, or that "overdue" was past edd by 3 days. this is just a tragedy that women are fed these lines time and again. people are shocked when i refuse to tell them our edd, i tell them that due dates are a guesstimate at best and we're expecting our baby any time between early oct and early november. this has confused many people, surprisingly.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lorijds*
From the insider's point of view, I feel like epidurals are routinely offered and even pushed because it is easier to manage the woman's labor. Staffing at hospitals is very tight. A woman who lays in bed and watches tv is a heck of alot easier to take care of than a woman who needs you in there for every contraction, talking her through it, rubbing her back, supporting her. Who would employ all the anesthesiologists if we didn't have a 90% epidural rate at our local hospital? It is very much about management and money, NOT about compassionate pain relief for women.

This was exactly how I felt for my second birth. My nurse was in and out of the room since she had several other patients but I believe she spent more time with me since the other patients had all gotten their epidurals at 3cm and I was still chugging along without one at 8cm. I was stuck there for four hours and kept feeling an urge to push. Each time she checked me to find I was still an 8 she offered an epi even though I had made it clear I didn't want pain meds. I course had let them do AROM to help things along which led to a low fever within an hour which led to an iv and "we'll just put in some pit while we're at it." You're typical cascade of interventions. Yeah it is definitely very hard to go without pain meds if you're not having a natural labor. Once I was able to cut those things out I had not trouble forgoing the pain meds. But anyway she was definitely having to give me more attention and was more than happy to finally get to call the anesthesiologist to give me my epi at 8cm. I wish she had told me to get out of the bed and try to walk a bit or squat or something but no they just wanted me in that bed being still.

Quote:

I have never felt like a martyr- giving birth naturally (although extremely painful due to some complications) was the empowering, liberating thing I have ever done in my life- I have so much more confidence in my body and in myself- it was a life changing experience for me. I never felt as though I "had to" give birth naturally- I wanted to experience birth fully and have confidence that my body could do what it was made to do. It hurt like a SOB but I wasn't "suffering" until the end and it was almost over anyway. It was just intense pain.
Yes!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I can't imagine why anybody would feel that having a natural childbirth makes you a martyr. I feel like a martyr to established medical practice for having had three c-sections that I didn't want (the first while I was screaming that I didn't want one, and pleading with my ex to make them stop). I'd love to know what it would feel like if my body delivered a baby by itself - quite amazing, I think, but I'm never going to know. I don't thinkn that wanting to makes me a martyr - quite the opposite, really.


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## AmyB (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
I notice a lot of very very negative attitudes on this forum twords epidurals and the women that get them.... What about freedom of choice and the freedom to be who we are, not what others tell us that we should be.

The freedom of choice argument depends on whether women are getting good enought information to know the implications of their choice. When doctors sell epidurals they are somewhat selling snake-oil, and that makes it a lot harder for women to make an informed choice.

First, epidural mythology says that unmedicated childbirth is the worst pain you can even immagine. The fact of an epidural as a standard offer makes birth sound horrifying. Luckily, my own mom told me that she thought it was worse to get a root canal than to have a baby and she was right. I can think of a number of things more scarry and painful than childbirth... food poisoning comes to mind, and so does a bad reaction I once had to Demerol.

Second, epidural mythology says that the pain of labor has no value. However, in my experience, the feelings in my body helped guide the birth. If I had not been able to feel my body, I am 100% sure my first child would have been born surgically.

In other words, epidurals are used as a way to scare women into submitting to medicalized birth, and the information women get is incomplete in some significant ways.

As for myself, I have never had an epidural. I had a hospital birth where I refused pain meds (mainly due to previous bad reactions) and subsequently, a home birth which is what I wish I had done the first time.

All I know is that the hospital staff didn't have a clue how to help a woman who wasn't numb and wouldn't believe anything I told them about what I felt in my body. So to me epidurals also reprsent unforgiveable ignorance about the process of birth on the part of conventionally-trained "medical experts". That experience has definitely given me a negative attitude.

--AmyB


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TurboClaudia*
There is a big difference between experiencing pain and experiencing suffering. What you describe above sounds like it might be suffering. What I experienced with my own labor was simply pain, not suffering.

~claudia

Good point, Claudia! I was the opposite, MrsMoe - my sufferring started when the pain finished - I was emotionally more vunerable and upset after the epidural than before.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe*
Good point, Claudia! I was the opposite, MrsMoe - my sufferring started when the pain finished - I was emotionally more vunerable and upset after the epidural than before.


Makes a lot of sense to me.

Hey, I agree with you all regarding epidurals being risky! So I don't anybody to think I am all pro-epi as a whole.







I was just worried about what I felt was a tone of judgement here. I really do wish the forum was more liberated to "women's rights," and sometimes I honestly feel it's not as "liberated" as one might think it would be. I would never judge a woman negatively if she got pain relief, even if she knew the risks.


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## jplain (Aug 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
Hey, I agree with you all regarding epidurals being risky! So I don't anybody to think I am all pro-epi as a whole.







I was just worried about what I felt was a tone of judgement here.

But you have to keep in mind that _this_ is a website focused on Natural Family Living, not Anything-Goes or You're-Okay-I'm-Okay.







Even if _you_ don't include childbirth in your definition of NFL, you're going to find that Mothering Magazine and many of the members here at MDC do. Their posted opinions are going to reflect that.


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## massagemom (Apr 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jplain*
But you have to keep in mind that _this_ is a website focused on Natural Family Living, not Anything-Goes or You're-Okay-I'm-Okay.







Even if _you_ don't include childbirth in your definition of NFL, you're going to find that Mothering Magazine and many of the members here at MDC do. Their posted opinions are going to reflect that.

yes, but what are the "requirements" to be a follower of natural family living?

is an epidural birth but using cloth diapers and not circumcising or vaxing "good" enough?

or a natural birth but using disposable diapers and circumcising but not vaxing?

what's the magic combination?

obviously a woman would not be on this site if she weren't interested in learning more about NFL or weren't a follower to some degree.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *massagemom*
yes, but what are the "requirements" to be a follower of natural family living?

is an epidural birth but using cloth diapers and not circumcising or vaxing "good" enough?

or a natural birth but using disposable diapers and circumcising but not vaxing?

what's the magic combination?

obviously a woman would not be on this site if she weren't interested in learning more about NFL or weren't a follower to some degree.

Well very few people are going to be 100% nfl, but most people respect this.

I love Wndy's, but I'm not going to start a thread here about how Wendy's is great.

That being said, I would never judge another woman for getting an epidural or anything else for that matter. I don't know her pain threshold, what her labour was like, support people, etc. I had one myslf although I regret it. I just wish every woman was informed if the risks, etc. I had to read and sign a waiver when I had mine, but I talk to women who didn't know there were any risks, let alone specific or common ones. I am about informed consent, and it seems like a lot of dr's aren't being forthright.


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## KKmama (Dec 6, 2001)

I think there could be a little more compassion on this thread... as with many other situations, it helps to hear a woman's individual story before judging.

I'm pretty darn well-informed about birth. With my 2nd, I had hoped to go drug-free, but the goal of a VBAC was more important to me, and I realized that I was willing to make compromises to get there. After 24 hours of labor (at home), I was exhausted. I went to the hospital, I had an epidural, and as happens with some women, it actually helped me dilate faster (while my dh, my doula, and I got some much needed rest). Also, I had some painful ovarian cysts which ruptured during the pushing stage (by far the most painful part of the entire labor and birth for me... pushing was *nothing* compared to that). I don't think I could have made it through the pushing if an epidural had not been in place... it had been turned down for the pushing, but then I asked them to give me a bump or 2 to help me get through *that*. And I had my VBAC.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I hope my post did not come across as judgmental becuase i did not mean it to at all.


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## massagemom (Apr 6, 2005)

Quote:

I love Wndy's, but I'm not going to start a thread here about how Wendy's is great.

yes, but that comparison would imply that someone that has received an epidural during childbirth "loves" epidurals. it is not the same thing.

i don't have any ill will towards anybody that has posted on this thread, actually it's the exact opposite, b/c i see this as a way for me to learn from other people and i have also articulated my own feelings about my birth to a higher level than before i posted on this thread.

my point really is that a woman you talk to a lot in the cloth diapering forum, or in the babywearing forum, or whatever forums are your favorite MAY have had an epidural during her birth. so to paint all women that have used pain relief during labor with the same broad brush is painful for everyone involved.

i don't think that anyone should be a proponent for epidural births either, it's the judgemental tone that pops up from time to time, about "those women that have used epidurals" that is being discussed. or at least that's the way i read the op.


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## pamamidwife (May 7, 2003)

I think as long as there are women birthing in strange surroundings with strangers, there will be a larger need for epidurals.

I've had plenty of clients in my practice get an epidural when we transferred to the hospital. There are plenty of good reasons for epidurals. Many times, I am grateful for them.

That said, what is it about our culture that almost frighteningly screams at women to have "their" epidural? Why are women so rabid about talking about how great they are? Why are there divisions between natural vs medicated? When does an epidural remove the birth experience and when does it make it happen?

I think that we don't live in a culture that could birth without medication and epidurals. We love drugs, most women birth around total strangers in a rather bizarre environment, and are attended by people who are afraid of birth. Many women have experienced sexual abuse and this further escalates the desire for a painless birth - or at least a birth where you cannot feel the sensations around your sexual organs.

Other times, there is an enormous amount of pain that is present in birth, even when supported and loved. Some women are ok with it, some women aren't. Some women eat meat, some women don't.


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## celrae (May 3, 2005)

AmyB

Quote:

Second, epidural mythology says that the pain of labor has no value. However, in my experience, the feelings in my body helped guide the birth. If I had not been able to feel my body, I am 100% sure my first child would have been born surgically.
The pain in your body does help guide you!! I wish I understood that more befor I gave birth.

Quote:

All I know is that the hospital staff didn't have a clue how to help a woman who wasn't numb and wouldn't believe anything I told them about what I felt in my body. So to me epidurals also reprsent unforgiveable ignorance about the process of birth on the part of conventionally-trained "medical experts". That experience has definitely given me a negative attitude.
Nurses that refused to listen to me was my main complaint about a hosipital birth.

When I read these post I hear judgement over and over again, maybe because I am gulity of not being 100% informed before I gave birth. I did make choices like getting an epi. but, it worked well for me in my case. I was able to have a vaginal birth of twin girls that were 8lb's each. What I would love to see is more support and education. The home birth mama's scared me before I gave birth because, (understandably now) they were so focuse on their way was the right way. Their way was the right way for them but, they needed to not be so down on women who choose differently than they did.


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## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)

pam-you make a good point. We are a drug-lovin nation! I always wondered why women would put up with waxing their legs and shoving their feet into 5 in high heels but wouldn't even imagine trying for a natural birth. Now I understand.


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## jplain (Aug 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *massagemom*
yes, but what are the "requirements" to be a follower of natural family living?

There are no requirements. But one also shouldn't feel hurt or judged if others don't agree with one's choices. The line between "judgement" and "difference of opinion" is often blurry and/or subjective. If one wants to be patted on the back for all decisions, even when they might not be completely compatible with typical NFL values, this may not be the best place to look. Or one may need to grow a slightly thicker skin.

Mothering.com isn't going to be the right place for everyone at every time for every topic. And that's okay. Generally speaking, cry it out isn't going to be popular. Hitting as a form of discipline won't be the norm. Formula feeding for no reason other than mom didn't feel like breastfeeding will be rare. Elective use of epidurals without serious exploration of other options (by this I mean that I'm NOT referring to the compassionate use of pain medication when necessary) will probably also be less common than on other pregnancy/parenting online communities.

As others have mentioned, in the case of epidurals, any negative views expressed here aren't necessarily a value judgement of the laboring woman ~ they may reflect objections to our societal norms and the non-mom-friendly ways that hospital L&D units are run. But societal norms often aren't going to be the norms _here_. Anyone who is not entirely comfortable with their choices may need to seek out alternative online sources of support in order to avoid feeling judged.

As an example, I don't talk much about homebirth on the other online community I frequent. I'd be judged harshly for it, and I just don't need that. My reasons for being a member there are unrelated to my birthing choices, and so I voluntarily compartmentalize in order to remain happy there. I don't see this as a bad thing. I don't expect to fit in 100% everywhere.


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## Artisan (Aug 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *celrae*

When I read these post I hear judgement over and over again, maybe because I am gulity of not being 100% informed before I gave birth. I did make choices like getting an epi. but, it worked well for me in my case. I was able to have a vaginal birth of twin girls that were 8lb's each. What I would love to see is more support and education. The home birth mama's scared me before I gave birth because, (understandably now) they were so focuse on their way was the right way. Their way was the right way for them but, they needed to not be so down on women who choose differently than they did.

That is awesome that you had a vaginal birth with twins -- way to go!

When you say more support, more support of what? There is a TON of support for women who want epidurals.


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## homemademomma (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *reader*
That sounds extremely difficult to have to lay in a hospital bed with pitocin. I would've had an epi, for sure. But natural birth is not just about going pain relief free -- it's about avoiding certain siutations to begin with. As the pps mentioned, it's about the obstetrical system that has been set up to expect women to 1) lay in a bed during birth, which is the worst place you can be, and 2) to have augmentation forced on them when things don't progress normally from having to lay in the bed, etc.


that is a great point.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *massagemom*
yes, but that comparison would imply that someone that has received an epidural during childbirth "loves" epidurals. it is not the same thing.

i don't have any ill will towards anybody that has posted on this thread, actually it's the exact opposite, b/c i see this as a way for me to learn from other people and i have also articulated my own feelings about my birth to a higher level than before i posted on this thread.

my point really is that a woman you talk to a lot in the cloth diapering forum, or in the babywearing forum, or whatever forums are your favorite MAY have had an epidural during her birth. so to paint all women that have used pain relief during labor with the same broad brush is painful for everyone involved.

i don't think that anyone should be a proponent for epidural births either, it's the judgemental tone that pops up from time to time, about "those women that have used epidurals" that is being discussed. or at least that's the way i read the op.

No I totally agree with you. I just don't think I worded my post right.

-a woman who did not love her epidural.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

RE: The tone of judgement around epidurals at MDC -
I believe it is just one more thing that women who enjoy the game of 'one uppance' (as in "I have one more up on you!") can bite into.

If your birth was empowering with pain relief then so be it & good on you!

I deserve the right to birth at home hanging from the chandeliers - just as another woman deserves the right to birth with an epidural if she so decides.


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## Artisan (Aug 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darsmama*
RE: The tone of judgement around epidurals at MDC -
I believe it is just one more thing that women who enjoy the game of 'one uppance' (as in "I have one more up on you!") can bite into.


Can you give an example? I am not getting that from this thread at all...


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *reader*
Can you give an example? I am not getting that from this thread at all...

I can't give you an example, Reader because it isn't here on this thread...I was responding to the original poster about the feelings of judgement towards women who recieve epidurals. I think a SMALL MINORITY of women who have had ncb (a small minority, again) use it as a way they 'out mother' someone else, or feel superior to other moms.

If, in your walks among real world living (or on MDC) you HAVEN'T run into women who try to 'out mother' each other and birth is just one more avenue they take to do that it - then you really are a fortunate woman...

I just assumed every woman had experianced, or been guilty at one time or another (I know I have) of the type of mom who plays one uppance.


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## ZanZansMommy (Nov 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jplain*
There are no requirements. But one also shouldn't feel hurt or judged if others don't agree with one's choices. The line between "judgement" and "difference of opinion" is often blurry and/or subjective. If one wants to be patted on the back for all decisions, even when they might not be completely compatible with typical NFL values, this may not be the best place to look. Or one may need to grow a slightly thicker skin.


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## celrae (May 3, 2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jplain








:

I 100% agree with this post.

Regarding support, I wanted to be able to talk about the birth experince with other moms and not feel bad about my choices. As a new mom I was sensitive to other peoples opinions and I felt like I couldn't talk to them. Because, I was overly sensitive I didn't ask all the ?'s I needed to before my birth experince. I just wish people were not so black or white, natural vs. hosipital both have positives.


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## ScotiaSky (Jul 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *charmcitymama*
IAlso, does anyone know anyone paralyzed by an epidural or a baby with brain damage? I have never heard of anyone actually having that happen, have you?

Although aiming for NCB I was induced with Pit and opted for the epidural....and it took about 6 weeks for me to regain feeling in one of my hands and one of my feet on either side of my body.
I was unable to carry my child in my arms those few weeks because my foot would all of the sudden give out on me and down to the ground I would go...I also walked with that foot dragging behind as I could not control it and lift up my leg properly.
The Doctors and Midwives all said this was due to the epi...and I had the perfect epi not a problem with it during delivery etc. Although it is not extreme it did happen and it was scary for me.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

My reason for not wanting an epidural in labor is quite simple: it puts me one step closer to having a C-section.

Do all epis end in C-sections? Of course not. Could I end up with a C-section anyway? Sure. But all interventions (IVs, pitocin, epi, etc.) increase your odds of more interventions.


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## Trishas Tribe (Nov 4, 2003)

I know it doesn't really matter, but I am fresh off the birthing bed and had an epi for the first time ever.

My first 3 children were totally natural midwife attended hospital births. I managed well and even enjoyed birthing my first three children.

My fourth child is 3 days old today. I expected a short easy labour with no interventions. However, after more than 24 hours of back labor and contractions 3-5 minutes apart. I was exausted to say the least. I opted for an epi at that point. I do not regret my decision. This was my hardest and longest labor. Isaac was born face up after alot of pushing. I could feel all of the pushing phase and was grateful for the few hours of rest that the epi gave me before pushing began.

Everyone has a different birth experience. I *NEVER* thought I would have an epi in a million years!! I was wrong, and I don't regret my decision for a minute.

I will not be one to ever judge another's decision in this matter.


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *massagemom*
yes, but what are the "requirements" to be a follower of natural family living?

is an epidural birth but using cloth diapers and not circumcising or vaxing "good" enough?

or a natural birth but using disposable diapers and circumcising but not vaxing?

what's the magic combination?

obviously a woman would not be on this site if she weren't interested in learning more about NFL or weren't a follower to some degree.

I agree... there shouldn't be a magic combination, right? I cloth diaper, no circ, breastfeed BUT I vaxed and ended up with an epi/c-section... it's hard to define a line...I would be hurt to think people are judging me as "not crunchy enough" or in the opposite situation "too crunchy" and would just appreciate that I am here because I am interested in being here and share some similar views with others.


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## Lousli (Nov 4, 2003)

I think that overall, the people at MDC are not judgemental of individual women's choices to have/not have epidurals, but are as many mentioned, upset by the system in place currently. That being said, I have to agree with a PP who mentioned that there are a few who are judgemental, and use natural childbirth to "one up" others who didn't have a natural birth for whatever reason. I think sometimes there is misinformation on both sides. I've read here that there is often a "cascade of interventions"-yeah, sure there often is, but not always. This is not usually presented. I mean, I had two epidural births with fast labors, no episiotimy, forceps, tears, vaccuum, etc. I've read that epidural moms often don't nurse their babies-tell that to my almost 4 year old who's waiting her turn while the 8 month old nurses. I've read (thanks Ina May) that natural birth is "orgasmic"-umm, not for me (before meds) and I know a lot of women, but never heard that particular term before from any of them. I've also read that epidural moms are uninformed- I knew the risks, and made the decision anyway, and I prepared for natural childbirth (I thought I was prepared with the first, and I really studied hard before the second). I even read here on MDC once that epidural babies are born blue and floppy!

I'm not a pro-epidural person by any means. In fact, I greatly regret my birthing experiences, and wish they had happened differently. I think that this may be the case with many mamas here who had an epidural despite their intentions to go natural. It is hard to read about what you're supposed to live up to, and then have someone make a disrespectful or generalized comment about "those women" who have epidurals.


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