# Seriously Considering a FFing Trial--Help!



## mrsfrenchy (Apr 14, 2008)

DD (12 months) has suddenly become an avid carseat hater. The car is becoming a miserable place for us, and although I am trying to condense our trips/cut down on driving, it can't be avoided all together.

She's currently 25lbs and I was planning on keeping her RFing until the new baby comes (she'll be 18 months then), simply because there's no way I can fit two seats RFing in my car.

But with her recent carseat aversion, I am at a loss. She's absolutely miserable in the car--but I _hate_ the idea of turning her around already. DH is convinced that she would be happier if we turned her around (and I honestly think she would be too), but I'm still reluctant to do it.

We bring toys in the car, but she drops them frequently--and even when she does hold on to them, she only plays with them in between bouts of screaming.

I really don't know what to do. I want my LO to be happy AND safe--I really don't want to have to give up either one.

Do you all have any advice??


----------



## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

What seat is she in now? Is it installed at a 45-degree angle? Older babies can be more upright and they like it better -- plus, it makes it easier to fit two RFing seats in a car. 12 -- or even 18 -- months is very young to be FFing and I would not recommend it.


----------



## Delicateflower (Feb 1, 2009)

Have you tried music? A huge box of toys on the front seat and hand each one over as she drops the one before?


----------



## pixels99 (Jul 8, 2009)

While turning her FFing might stop the screaming temporarily, it's usually just the novelty. Once the novelty wears off, the screaming will return. Many babies go through a phase around 12 months where they hate the carseat, regardless of which direction it's facing. It's being restrained that they're really objecting to.

What seats do you have, and what vehicle?


----------



## mrsfrenchy (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
What seat is she in now? Is it installed at a 45-degree angle? Older babies can be more upright and they like it better -- plus, it makes it easier to fit two RFing seats in a car.

We have this seat:
http://www.kmart.com/shc/s/p_10151_1...Name=Car+Seats
It's the Safety 1st Avenue. We got it because the RFing weight and height limits are better than most in our price range.
The carseat has a line on it that says "this should be level with ground when RFing" (or something to that effect), so we have it installed that way--although it is QUITE reclined at that setting and looks uncomfortable that way.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Delicateflower* 
Have you tried music? A huge box of toys on the front seat and hand each one over as she drops the one before?

Music works sometimes, although less so now. A box of toys is a good idea. I'll have to try that, although I know that a lot of the time she's probably just going to get pissed and knock my hand away. It make work sometimes (which is better than nothing)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixels99* 
While turning her FFing might stop the screaming temporarily, it's usually just the novelty. Once the novelty wears off, the screaming will return. Many babies go through a phase around 12 months where they hate the carseat, regardless of which direction it's facing. It's being restrained that they're really objecting to.

What seats do you have, and what vehicle?

I was afraid of this and this is just one of many reasons that i'm reluctant to try out FF--if she likes it, DH will want to keep it that way, but I doubt he'd be as eager to RF her again, when she gets mad again in a month.

We've got the Safety 1st avenue seats in both cars and my car is a Susuki Reno (4 doors plus a hatchback).

Food is one think that keeps her entertained, but I'm somewhat reluctant to let her eat when I don't have quick access to her should she start choking.

I know that someone will eventually suggest that I try a different carseat and I'll just go ahead and say that that's really not an option for us financially--especially with a new LO on the way, I can't go out and get 2 more carseats when we've already got some that work (despite her hatred of them)


----------



## mamabutterfly (Jun 23, 2002)

I had good luck at that age with a really fun music CD (we used the one from the Fun with Music classes). And I sing along.









Also I bring an unusual sippy cup with water in it, which she finds novel. I changed a toy out for a mirror at that age, too, which was new. She might be ready at 12 months for more interesting toys (even ones that make annoying music?).
In other words, I agree not to turn her yet, lol!


----------



## wendypf (Aug 23, 2008)

I logged in to write this same message. 11MO DD is screaming in the car the entire time and its very hard to get her in the seat. She stands in it facing forward and I literally have to hold her down (quite hard) to buckle the seat.

DH thinks she'll be happier facing forward (which i agree). I'm hoping this is a phase that will end before its possible to put her forward. Usually I'm not one to avoid trips in the car, but lately, I find I dont want to go out at all with her


----------



## goodheartedmama (Feb 1, 2007)

They're not even aware they can face forward, so I'd leave her RF. I found that both of mine quit crying around that age in the seat and it was just the age--not the direction they were facing.


----------



## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

I turned mine FF at that age and it stopped the screaming. There's a risk from facing forwards, there's also a risk from mummy driving into a (insert name of obstacle) because she's distracted by the noise.


----------



## pastrygirl (Jul 21, 2006)

I agree that the first thing to try is a more upright install. 45 degrees is only for newborn and babies without good neck control.

In the case of FF stopping the crying, it might have been because it's more upright. So, try RF more upright first.


----------



## mrsfrenchy (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pastrygirl* 
I agree that the first thing to try is a more upright install. 45 degrees is only for newborn and babies without good neck control.

In the case of FF stopping the crying, it might have been because it's more upright. So, try RF more upright first.









I was under the impression (from looking at the directions on our seat, that there was only one acceptable way to install it RFing, which is pretty reclined.

Can anyone correct me on that, for sure?


----------



## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

What seat, what car?


----------



## pastrygirl (Jul 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrsfrenchy* 
I was under the impression (from looking at the directions on our seat, that there was only one acceptable way to install it RFing, which is pretty reclined.

Can anyone correct me on that, for sure?

Other seats (Britax, Radian, True Fit, others) allow up to 30- or 35-degree angle. I haven't seen the Avenue manual, but it might say in there. As a tech, I usually install RF seats more upright for babies who are 6 months old or older.


----------



## mrsfrenchy (Apr 14, 2008)

We've got the Safety 1st avenue seats in both cars and my car is a Susuki Reno (4 doors plus a hatchback).


----------



## butterfly_mommy (Oct 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrsfrenchy* 
I was under the impression (from looking at the directions on our seat, that there was only one acceptable way to install it RFing, which is pretty reclined.

Can anyone correct me on that, for sure?

It may still be more then a 46 degree angle. When we installed our snugride we used the level indicator on the side of the carseat and it was bang on perfectly in the middle. Yet when we took it in to be inspected and they measured it it was off by quite a bit







: Anyway even though the line looks level with the ground it could be over reclined.

You should go to car-seat.org there is some great info about why you should keep your baby RF for as long as possible. Also some great Techs that can help you out with install knowledge.

I convinced my DH to keep our DS RF by sending him the link to Joel" journey

Please don't turn your child around until you absolutely have exhausted every avenue you can to keep them RF. I think of ERF like BF they are both absolutely, qualitatively proven to be the best for your child. Sometimes however a very small percentage can't do the best thing due to unfortunate circumstances like a large baby, screaming no matter what baby, etc, or low milk production, not latching properly no matter what, etc. When you can't ERF or BF then they are both tragedies and hopefully not decisions made lightly.

Ok so here are my suggestions.

-Change the angle so the seat is more upright 35-45 degrees also verify what angle it is on now.
-You have to get a second seat anyway for your newbie so why not buy one now (a good not too pricey seat that fits a newborn pretty decently due to the insert is the True Fit, it also frequently goes on sale) and try your DD in it to see if it is more comfy.
-a mirror really helped DS (just make sure it is a soft one and has a clip instead of just velcro)
-books, books and more books. I sometimes keep a stash on the seat beside me or glove box and just keep handing him to him.
-Toys that are only in the car
-fun music, sleepy music, instrumental music
-signing, when DS gets really upset I sing him a song I made up which is just his name over and over in a melodic tune. He loves that song








-I do give DS a snack trap with meltable snacks in it (Oatieos, mum mums, corn puffs, etc) I know there is some risk to choking there but I think it is low and never if I am driving on the highway.
-A sippy cup of water
-A soft activity book
-Planning trips right before nap time and then nurse right before getting in car seat.
-Singing a crazy song as putting DS in seat to distract him (I really think it is more about the restraint then which way they are looking)
-pointing out interesting sites he can see
-open his window or close his window
-Taking off his shoes and socks
- making sure we often go to fun places in car eg park, swimming, zoo, etc not just shopping, visiting relatives, Dr.s, etc
-Sometimes I will sit in the back with DS when DH drives
- telling myself that this phase will be over soon


----------



## pixels99 (Jul 8, 2009)

Chickabiddy, Pastrygirl and I are all on car-seat.org, and all three of us are techs.









You can install the Avenue between 45 and 30 degrees. 45 degrees is half way between sitting up straight and laying down flat; 30 degrees is a bit more upright than 45. Ignore the line on the carseat, as they are often wrong. Look at the actual slope of the seat, where baby's back rests.


----------



## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Your seat has a 34 inch minimum for FF, so unless she's that height or taller she needs to stay rf







. Also, please try installing it more upright. Like others have said, it can be between 30 and 45* for an older child with good head control. She should be much happier that way!


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Yep. Install more upright. No WAY I'd put a 12 mo old ff. I wouldn't ff at 18 months either. I would find a way to keep her rf.

-Angela


----------



## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flapjack* 
I turned mine FF at that age and it stopped the screaming. There's a risk from facing forwards, there's also a risk from mummy driving into a (insert name of obstacle) because she's distracted by the noise.

Yeah, me too. All three of my kids, actually. I think my dd got carsick that way. The screaming didn't come back because I could point things out to them and they could see me.


----------



## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

when i was growing up my mom only did ffing except for the infant base seats.

sorry but i remember all of my siblings screaming and wriggling like they were dying at that age. it took all my strength as a pre-teen to get them buckled into the seat.

likely ff would distract her...for how long who knows. and at 12 months she is definitely capable of using this as a communicative tool. soon you will be bargaining w/ someone who is way better at arguing and winning than you.

a screaming kid is not fun. dd has been upset in her seat before. the hormones are raging. i would prefer dd scream for a couple minutes rather than risk internal decapitation or other expensive and permanent injuries if we are in a car accident.


----------



## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixels99* 
While turning her FFing might stop the screaming temporarily, it's usually just the novelty. Once the novelty wears off, the screaming will return. Many babies go through a phase around 12 months where they hate the carseat, regardless of which direction it's facing. It's being restrained that they're really objecting to.

What seats do you have, and what vehicle?

My oldest went through this, and my youngest that just turned one is being like this too. She gets angry when things don't go her way or she doesn't get what she wants, and when she wants out of the seat and no one is taking her out, then she screams. Or she's incredibly tired and whines as well.


----------



## soxthecatrules (Oct 20, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *butterfly_mommy* 
Please don't turn your child around until you absolutely have exhausted every avenue you can to keep them RF. I think of ERF like BF they are both absolutely, qualitatively proven to be the best for your child. Sometimes however a very small percentage can't do the best thing due to unfortunate circumstances like a large baby, screaming no matter what baby, etc, or low milk production, not latching properly no matter what, etc. When you can't ERF or BF then they are both tragedies and hopefully not decisions made lightly.


I don't see that my inability to BF was a "tragedy". Sad. Maybe. But, not a tragedy by any means. ERF is a different story. Now ERF can LEAD to a tragedy. I think there are probably relatively few children that can not RF until at least the age of two. It may require the purchase of a different carseat though.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I think giving snacks would be less risky than FF at that age, if you're careful with your snack selection.


----------



## merryns.mom (Jun 10, 2009)

i posted this earlier about"carseat hell" and my 12 mo daughter. so i feel your pain, she screams bloody murder in the carseat (any carseat)

i ff her wednesday night for a short drive just to see and she talked and laughed and fell right asleep. i hate her ff and just recently bought the graco my ride for the higher rf ability, but the manual shows it only has one recline in rf that is super reclined.

so, not sure what i'm going to do, we can't sit in the house, but i really cannot stand nonstop screaming

good luck


----------



## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

Have you tried talking to her about how you go fun places in the car? Every time you get in for a few days, ONLY go fun places! Explain that you know she doesn't like the carseat right now, but you have to go in the car to get XYZ fun place.

Food worked to get my DD into the carseat without much hassle at that age, but she never screamed the whole time.

Maybe try one of those mirrors, so she can see you and you can see her? I know they're not 100% safe, but it's got to be safer than driving with a screaming child.


----------



## butterfly_mommy (Oct 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soxthecatrules* 
I don't see that my inability to BF was a "tragedy". Sad. Maybe. But, not a tragedy by any means. ERF is a different story. Now ERF can LEAD to a tragedy. I think there are probably relatively few children that can not RF until at least the age of two. It may require the purchase of a different carseat though.

Yes your right tragedy was the wrong word to use, sad is a better word to use.


----------



## ShyDaisi (Jan 22, 2007)

12 months is a PRIME time for tantrums. 2 years is generally recognized as a common time when tantrums are prevelant, but in my experience and from reading about others, they generally begin around 12 months. With that in mind, I agree that she is protesting more against the restraint than being RFing considering that she isn't even aware that FFing is an option.

Can she communicate with you? Sign language was my savior at this age (12 to 18 months). There were times that Micah was fighting being put in the carseat that if he couldn't communicate with me, I could have thought he just didn't want to be restrained. He was thirsty, or he wanted to read a book he saw before leaving the house, he was hungry, he wanted to say hi to the baby/boy/girl passing by the car, or he saw an airplane flying overhead that he wanted to watch. Our first signs were water, eat, book, baby, boy, girl, milk, and airplane -- can you tell?







If he hadn't been able to tell me, he very well could have screamed all the way to our next destination.

While understandable (as I could imagine you and your DH are tearing your hair out trying to figure out WHY she screams all the time), thinking that turning her would help is more likely of a projection of your and your DH's thoughts rather than her own. My dad is like this. He thinks Micah wants to FF because my DAD wouldn't want to ride RFing, when in truth, Micah could care less because he doesn't know any better.


----------



## jillmamma (Apr 11, 2005)

from your DDC!









I still have my DD RF at almost 4. I'll tell you for us, having that soft mirror on the back of the headrest has really helped. I can see her, and she can see me better that way. Talking to her, singing to her sometimes helps too, although at this age, she is pretty cool with this car anyway. I have her seat installed pretty upright too, so she does not have to lay back so far. Be careful with the cups in the car...DS used to like to toss the cup at ME when he was done with it! Another biggie for us is try to travel when she is not too tired or hungry (unless you can get her to nap in the car). Or have some car only toys or books.

Good luck!


----------



## AfricanQueen99 (Jun 7, 2008)

Yay to the January mama-to-bes!

I'll tell you that when my daughter went through this phase I would give her a tiny tupperware container with a smallish hole in the top full of Cheerios. It took time and dedication to get those darn Cheerios out and she forgot about crying while doing it.

She also had car-only books/toys that were things she loved.

FWIW, I wish she could still be RFing, but she hit her weight limit shortly before turning three.


----------



## lexbeach (Mar 6, 2002)

I am a firm believer in ERF (I am a CPS tech as well), and my twins were rear-facing until they hit the limit, past their 3rd birthday. But with my 3rd son, I haven't been able to consistently rear-face him due to his extreme car-sickness. When he is rear-facing, he is 90% more likely to throw up in the car under certain driving conditions. We have a minivan, so we have space to have two different car seats installed for him, one RF and one FF. On super windy back roads, I put him FF. Otherwise, I have him RF until he tells me that he feels sick, and then I switch him over to the FF seat (and for short rides around town, he's usually fine to be RF the whole time). He is 32 months old now, and this has been going on since he was about 18 months old.

Anyway, my point is that IF your dd is tall enough to be FF in her seat, and IF you do decide to switch her to FF in spite of all of this advice to keep her RF, please know that you can absolutely go back to having her RF again. Maybe this is just a phase, maybe after a few days of FF, RF would seem exciting. It's not like once you switch your kiddo to FF, you can never go back to RF again.

My kids all preferred RF once they were old enough to communicate about it because their legs don't dangle and they can't drop things as easily.

Hope things improve for you soon!

Lex


----------



## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I am another mom that ff seat because of a screaming child...

1st child would barf on my back window, it was motion sickness.

2nd child it didn't cure the problem, she cried anyway. You can go back to RF. I at least knew I had tried everything and it was easier to ignore. Much safer than trying to drive with screaming child.

3rd child never had one problem in the car seat and went right to sleep in it.

I personally would try it. You can always go back.


----------



## columbusmomma (Oct 31, 2006)

My DD will be 2 next week. We occasionally FF her but want to do RF until she's 3. She's never protested when we RF her after being FF.


----------



## mrsfrenchy (Apr 14, 2008)

Thanks for all the advice everyone!









So, I think our plan at this point is to try and install the carseat more upright. Hopefully that will make her more comfortable. I'm also going to get a box of mum-mums to keep in the car to give to her and make some toys just for the car.

I'm going to have to get an appt with a tech to install the carseat properly though. To be honest, our carseat have never seemed snug enough and so I'm not sure that they're properly installed anyway







So I'll be making an appt. and hopefully get a safer and more comfortable ride for DD.


----------



## azmomtoone (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrsfrenchy* 
I was under the impression (from looking at the directions on our seat, that there was only one acceptable way to install it RFing, which is pretty reclined.

Can anyone correct me on that, for sure?

If you aren't already convinced:









http://www.carseat.org/Technical/tech_update.htm (scroll down about half-way, to the paragraph titled "angle of recline, rear-facing)

http://www.carsafety4kids.com/rearfacing.html (FAQ's about RF, under myths/misconceptions there's one about whether the seat HAS to be at a 45 degree angle) (noting that some of the info on this page is outdated - specifically the bit about the handles on infant seats....it used to be that they had to be down, now several models allow them to be up.)

pics of how-to install more upright: http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=32350

Quote:

just recently bought the graco my ride for the higher rf ability, but the manual shows it only has one recline in rf that is super reclined.
See the picture thread.







You do have to use the rear-facing mode of your carseat - which means the reclined mode of most seats, or with the boot on in the case of the Radian. But you CAN install it MORE upright while still reclined, RF. You cannot put them in the FF'ing, upright mode and then install them rearfacing.


----------

