# Pastor's response to spanking letter



## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

Awhile back, dh and I wrote a letter to our pastor on the subject of spanking, and several asked for an update when he responded. Here it is:

Dear Carlos and Dulce,

I cannot tell you how impressed I was with your recent communication
about parenting--wonderful really.

I have never really thought through some of the points you laid out
so beautifully. I am not sure I completely agree that corporal
punishment is never to be employed but certainly using it as a
parent's first defense or primary discipline tool was effectively and
brilliantly countered by your thoughts.

Could you send me an electronic copy of what you gave me? I would
like to use it in the future when I brush up against discipline issues.

Again, thanks for taking the time to communicate about this and for
your loving communication style--you are wonderful!

And for anyone who missed it, this is the letter that we sent:

Dear Pastor,

We are so grateful for all of the ways that you have helped us to connect in a closer way with God. This of course has had a profound influence on our parenting. Yet, in light of a recent sermon, we would like to present to you an alternative Christian view on disciplining children. Christians, of course, are probably the strongest proponents of spanking in the US. It is, so they say, their God given right---it's what the Bible teaches. That is exactly the point of contention and what we hope to humbly disprove.

Let's take the Old Testament. Some (our more literal-interpreting brothers) would say that it covers a period of about 4000-10,000 years; others (our more moderate and liberal brothers), anywhere between 10,000 to millions and millions of years. Irrespective of which view you hold, it has to be astounding that there is not one example of spanking in the whole Old Testament. This is especially impressive when you consider the large percentage of OT books which are more narrative than didactic. We might also add that there is no example of spanking in the New Testament, even though the time period is significantly shorter (around 100 years) and the majority of the books are didactic and not narrative. Now certainly there are some didactic passages in both Testaments that can be construed as being pro-spanking, however, they can be interpreted in a different light with sound exegesis.

Strange, isn't it, for a teaching that is so adamantly held by so many believers that it is not illustrated once in either Testament. But, even if no narrative biblical passage illustrates spanking, if it is plainly and consistently taught in didactic passages, then we must accept it as God ordained. In the Old Testament the only passages that can be construed as being pro-spanking are found in only one book: Proverbs. A good hermeneutical principal is to not build doctrine on poetic passages. The wisdom books are full of symbolism and hyperbole and are often a stumbling block to the more literal interpreting readers. The "rod" in these Proverbs passages that so many see as a license to spank is symbolic. This Hebrew word is often translated as shepherd's "staff/rod" or king's "scepter". So, if we were to be more literal, a closer translation would be bat and not twig! But that is not the author's intent. This "rod" is a symbol of authority and guidance, like a shepherd guiding his sheep or a king governing his people. This is why the Psalmist could joyfully exclaim: "thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me" (Psalm 23:4). We do not wish to pass over this lightly, because these verses are the foundation of the Christian pro-spanking argument. However, to avoid repetition, we ask that you read the following links www.gracefulparenting.blogspot.com and www.aolff.org for a detailed analysis of these passages.

It is somewhat puzzling that the people who insist that spanking is Old Testament mandated claim the passages from a poetic book, yet dismiss clear instructions from a didactic passage in the Torah to stone rebellious children (Deut. 21:18-21). Why the inconsistency? You claim that one passage is obviously morally wrong. We submit that both are morally wrong, especially in light of the culmination of God's progressive revelation---Jesus Christ, who taught us, among other things, that unless we "become like little children" we can never enter the kingdom of heaven (Mt. 18:3. See also Mt. 19:14). Implication: children are more in tune with God than adults. Which raises the question: should the unrighteous be punishing the righteous?

While the Old Testament is of great value, we recognize that no longer being under the Law changes how we apply some of the OT Scriptures to our daily lives. So even if spanking is Old Testament taught that doesn't mean it is New Testament endorsed. Throughout the New Testament the one passage used to support spanking is Hebrews 12:4-6. Going back to the original language there, however, also changes the meaning to the importance of discipline and authority in shaping a child, not physical punishment. God certainly disciplines us but He doesn't physically hit us when he does. Read the text. Proper exegesis shows that the pro-spanking people simply choose to read into this passage the very point they need to prove.

So, if there are no passages in either Testament that truly encourage spanking, then we must evaluate discipline according to other principles that the Bible teaches clearly. Jesus teaches us that we have two goals: to love God with all that we are, and to treat others the way we would like to be treated. Nowhere does He imply that His words do not apply to how we treat children. In fact, His interactions with children showed a special effort to value them and their feelings. He also tells us that whatever we do to the least of these we are doing to Him. Can you honestly say that you would want someone to hit you? I can't. I can say truthfully that I would want loving correction and instruction if I were doing something wrong, but being hit/spanked/popped/smacked would not be a part of it.

Jesus' example was that the one in authority had an even greater responsibility to act in love than the one under authority. We are to demonstrate the Fruit of the Spirit. Yet how is hitting a child compatible with the peace, patience, kindness and gentleness in which we are called to walk? The Bible is very specific about how we should deal with sin in others: We are taught that in correcting those who disobey to do so gently (Gal. 6:1). Parents are specifically cautioned to not cause their children to lose heart (Eph. 6:4). Having the people you love most in the world deliberately hurt you is pretty disheartening, regardless of any lofty motives they may claim.

The Bible is clear that parents have a responsibility to discipline their children. But discipline and spanking are not the same thing. Discipline is about making disciples, or teaching. It is difficult for children to focus on a life-lesson, though, if they are distracted by the anger, hurt, fear, humiliation and resentment that result from being hit. As career teachers, our professional education classes and our years of experience with students of many ages have convinced us that the research is correct in showing that people learn more effectively through positive reinforcement than from punishment (negative reinforcement). You have seen this in the family of (name removed), whose children are delightful to be around. They do not spank, but instead practice gentle discipline.

Another important point is that most of us are able to learn best from example--that is why Paul wrote to be imitators of him as beloved children. Kids are expert mimics. Too many children in our nation are learning that the way to respond to an offense is to hurt the offender. "Turning the other cheek" is not supposed to mean baring a child's bottom. We recognize that in other relationships of authority (employer/employee, police officer/civilian, pastor/church member, husband/wife) that physical punishment is inappropriate, even when correction is needed. Children are even more vulnerable-surely we can find better ways to correct them, as well.

When Christians teach spanking, the majority has several cute euphemisms to describe it and a list of guidelines as to how, when, and with what. There is absolutely no Biblical basis for any of them-they are essentially cultural. Whether you call it spanking, popping, smacking or hitting, they all mean to strike a child in order to produce pain and fear. Why do we feel the need to create so many guidelines: spank only on the bottom or legs, only X number of times, only with your hand/a switch/a paddle/PVC pipe (Michael and Debi Pearl, some of the most popular writers on spanking in Christian circles, advocate plastic plumbing pipe!). Is spanking on the bottom any better than the Waorani practice of slapping their children in the face with stinging nettles? Why, if neither results in permanent injury? If God didn't impose a limit on the number of times we strike a child, who is to say that 9 times is worse than 2? While not spanking in anger is at least more likely to avoid a total loss of control and avert serious physical injury, watching the person you love and trust more than any other calmly and deliberately choose to hurt you is a chilling experience.

I would submit that the reason behind the euphemisms and rules that Christians create is that our conscience is condemning us. We are aware on some level that hurting those who are smaller and weaker goes against the nature of Christ, and feel a need to justify and minimize what we are actually doing.

Another issue with spanking is that as the child grows, the spankings must get harder and longer in order to produce the same level of pain and fear. When do they eventually start to cross the line into abuse? Of course, most parents stop spanking once the child begins to approach them in size and maturity. We agree that then it is more appropriate to use the Biblical admonition, "Come now, let us reason together&#8230;". If the child is old enough to reason, spanking is unnecessary. If the child is too young to reason, then the child is too young to effectively understand what the parents are trying to teach, and the spanking is both cruel and pointless.

The false dichotomy that always pops up is that if parents don't spank, they are not disciplining their children. That suggests that parents are relying on spanking as their main or only form of discipline. Permissive, lazy parenting is neglect. The responsibility given to parents is a great, even fearsome one. By choosing not to spank, we have gained deeper insight into our children's hearts. It has challenged us to deal with anger and pride, and earnestly seek God's wisdom, patience and love. Proactive parenting is more "work" than spanking, but already the rewards have been great.

There are so many alternative ways to discipline that result in harmony and renewed connection between the parent and child. Teaching a child to do right is much more effective than executing judgment for doing wrong. When we as parents obey our directive to treat others as we want to be treated, it causes us to get behind the eyes of the child and deal with the root of the problem rather than just suppressing an outward behavior. It is amazing to see a cycle of irritability and frustration break when the parent chooses to discipline by restoring relationship. Many parents assume a time-out is the default choice if parents don't spank. However, often what children need is more time WITH the parents to reconnect, reassure and restore. Without turning an already lengthy letter into a book, if you are interested in other approaches, we would be happy to explain how we handle specific situations or direct you to sources that we have found beneficial.

The plan behind redemption is clear. God wants to reconnect with us. All of the history of the Law shows that merely punishing sin doesn't change the heart. What changes the hearts of our children is relationship. Obedience grows out of love and trust rather than a self-centered desire to avoid punishment. If children obey simply out of fear of being spanked, their motivation isn't righteous, but only self-centered.

As a child of God, my choice for obedience isn't based on a fear of punishment. It isn't a get-out-of-hell-free card for me. It is because I love Him and have learned to trust Him. My children are learning to obey for the same reasons. If my children do wrong and repent, for me to go ahead and hit them seems very inconsistent with the way that God has forgiven my mistakes. I have a responsibility to show the same grace toward my kids that I have received. It is God's kindness that leads us to repentance, not His wrath.

We have chosen to look at this from a Christian perspective, but we find it interesting that the research is overwhelmingly against spanking. The American Academy of Pediatrics, like many other professional organizations involving children and health, has issued a statement against corporal punishment on the grounds that it is not nearly as effective as positive reinforcement and that it can be harmful physically and emotionally. In fact, there are some indications that spanking is associated with increased delinquent and antisocial behavior, increased risk of child abuse and spousal abuse, increased risk of child and adult aggression, decreased child mental health and decreased adult mental health. Consider this in the light of Jesus' warning against causing little ones to stumble.

Sometimes it is difficult to discern what the Bible teaches on specific issues. You have often used the illustration of God playing hide and seek in order to encourage us to dig deeper and seek Him with all of our hearts. On the topic of spanking, He has given us glimpses of His heart--the parable of the unmerciful servant (Mt. 18:21-35), I John 4, James 2:13. None of these suggest ignoring or excusing sin, but they all teach us to be humble and loving as we show others, regardless of their age, a better way.

In closing, we chose to write this to you because of our respect for you. We know that you are someone who has the courage to look beyond the easy, superficial answers and the integrity to hold convictions that may not be popular. Believe us, in Christian circles not spanking is tantamount to heresy, but it is a very worthy cause. We humbly suggest that spanking is just another religiously transmitted disease. We love you and your family and are grateful that God has placed us under your spiritual leadership. May God bless you and your family.

Carlos and Dulce

The following list includes just some of the organizations that have issued a statement against spanking in the home:

* American Academy of Pediatrics
* American Humane Association
* American Orthopsychiatric Association
* Association for Childhood Education International
* California Medical Association
* Early Childhood Association of Florida
* Family Service of Milwaukee
* International Child Art Foundation
* National Association of Social Workers
* National Foster Parent Association
* Parents Anonymous
* Society for Adolescent Medicine
* United Methodist Church
* Wisconsin Child Abuse and Neglect Prevention Board


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Nice reply! It's nice that he's taking you seriously!


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## maryjane (Jul 13, 2004)

I had missed your OP about this, but I am blown away by your letter! How incredibly powerful. I am not Christian (Jewish), but found your letter to be an invaluable message for all people -- whether of faith or not.


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## candipooh (Jun 22, 2004)

Wow this is great. I would really love to copy and pass on your letter if you don't mind. I was thinking my myspace would be a good way to pass it on.

Just let me know if it is okay.

Good job!!


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

Thank you so much! You are more than welcome to share this letter with anyone.


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

Wow. You are really blessed with such a humble pastor. It's refreshing to see that he took you seriously, and didn't try to defend his postion or blow you off. I love your letter to him, I've had it posted on my fridge since your original post. I copy it and give it to as many people as I can.







:


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## nighten (Oct 18, 2005)

You letter was astounding and wonderful. Thank you for sharing!


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## tarajean56 (May 2, 2007)

I'm glad your pastor responded in the way that he did.

Thank you so much for posting your letter. How articulate and Biblically based. I am saving your letter (I hope you don't mind) to re-read and to share with my DH. I've always thought these things, but never was able to state it like you and your husband did. Your kids are lucky to have you as parents.


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## teachinmaof3 (Sep 15, 2003)

Got your message...










I am so glad to see the letter was well received! Now I'm anxious for him to do another message on parenting to see if discipline is presented differently.


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## reducereuserecycle (Jan 16, 2007)

you are blessed to have a genuine, concerned pastor!!!

that is great that he takes your beliefs into consideration.


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## Silvercrest79 (Jan 20, 2004)

Your letter was amazing. That is the most well written and easy to understand proof that spanking is NOT biblical.









Our pastor needs to read it too, he is VERY old fashioned. May I send it to him with proper credit given of course?


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

that is a very beautiful letter! I am not Christian but everybody I know is so I would love to be able to print that out.

Thank you for sharing it!


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## noah's mom (Jan 3, 2006)

I've been anxiously awaiting your pastor's response - SO impressed at his humility! You've done an incredible thing that will hopefully help some kids grow up without having to experience spanking.


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

What a wonderful response!!!


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## aries_mama (Sep 9, 2006)

I'm glad that your pastor appreciated your letter. Good job mama!


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## hippiemum21580 (Jul 14, 2007)

I love how well written your letter was and that it was firmly biblically based. It is encouraging to know your pastor truly seemed to take it to heart.


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## lindsaye3 (May 15, 2007)

As so many in the pps said your letter was wonderful! And I am so impressed by your pastor. He listened with an open mind and the very fact he wants an electronic copy to share - Wow!

Thank you to you and your husband for taking the time to write such a great letter!


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## Rivka5 (Jul 13, 2005)

Wow! Now you know for sure that you're at the right church.


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## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)

I'd like to put it on my myspace page as well, if that's OK.







:


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

i'm so pleased with your pastor's response!


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## RufusBeans (Mar 1, 2004)

I too, loved you letter and his reply makes me very happy.

thank you.


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## teachinmaof3 (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:

He listened with an open mind
One of the things I love about our pastor!

I approached him once before about some flyers that were out near the Children's Check-In area promoting a church bringing in the Ezzo's. I expressed my concerns about it, he listened and then had me talk to the admin guy as well. The flyers were never seen again.









And as Dulce and I know...there are more than enough Babywise Mama's at our church to begin with. No need to encourage them! I was very impressed and grateful that he listened to me and respected my opinion on the issue.


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## Kayaking Mama (Feb 15, 2006)

I'm new to the GD forum, so I missed the original post of your letter. Thanks for posting it again. Very well written and excellent points you made. Like some of the other posters, I am not Christian but found your letter to be compelling and would love to share it with others with your permission.


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## bumblebeej (Nov 5, 2005)

I loved his response! What a great pastor!


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

Our pastor is wonderful! He has some fantastic books out, he has been invited to the Vatican to meet with some cardinals, and he mentioned in his sermon last Sunday that he loves Harry Potter!









Dh has a question for those of you that have read both letters. Which did you prefer? The second version that I posted in this thread is longer than the other and some points were added, others removed. We would be interested in any thoughts you have.


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## teachinmaof3 (Sep 15, 2003)

Don't forget beer and brauts.









Dulce ~ Both were great but I think I like the second one.


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

I just want to say that this is a magnificent, well-researched, intelligent, and persuasive letter. I am so glad that your pastor was so gracious in his reply.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dulce de leche* 
Thank you so much! You are more than welcome to share this letter with anyone.









May I have permission as well? How do I credit you?


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## zzwhitejd (Jul 5, 2005)

Wow... thank you so much for sharing!


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *noah's mom* 
I've been anxiously awaiting your pastor's response - SO impressed at his humility! You've done an incredible thing that will hopefully help some kids grow up without having to experience spanking.

Exactly, she said it better than I could have! Wonderful response! I read your first letter and shared it with others and am so glad to see such a great response from your pastor. You really, really got him thinking! I suspect that within a year or two, he's going to be totally anti-spanking!!! Yay!!


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## AnnieMarie (Dec 1, 2005)

Dulce I would love to post your letter on a homeschool forum here in SA, if I may


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

This is absolutely wonderful. You just made my heart happy today, I am so glad to read that your pastor was so open and responsive. If I was a practicing Christian I would bring your letter to my church to share, too!


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## Smalls181 (May 12, 2006)

Thank you so much for that letter! If its alright, Ide like to pass it along to my family. They need to hear this, and its better written than I could ever do.


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

Thank you so much for the kind words. You all have taught me so much as I have lurked here. You are all welcome to pass our letter on to anyone you wish.


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## Maggirayne (Mar 6, 2007)

Thank you! DH and I are just starting our parenting journey. My DD is 4 mos and I have known since I was 12-13 and wrote and an essay about why I would not spank. It made my mom mad at the time. Hmm, wonder if I could find that essay, lol!

But I emailed your letter to my parents. They consider themselves continuum concept parents, weren't CIO, but they spanked and are telling me it's biblical to spank. It seems so ironic b/c my mom and I have a hard time communicating. I have a lot of anger towards her, which is the main difficulty now, but I know it comes from my childhood. Anyhow, not to hijack our post, but your letter very clearly stated things that I would want to express but would have a hard time getting out, as this is quite a heated issue.

What resources/books do you recommend? Please PM me. Thanks again!


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## Randinek (Sep 13, 2007)

I cannot thank you enough for this thread. I have been seriously trying to consider not spanking and this christian view has helped tremendously.


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

your letter is beautifully written. and kudos to your pastor for being so open.

can this letter be made into a sticky? it's such an amazing resource.


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## eucalyptusleaves (Feb 5, 2007)

Thank you for sharing!


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

Bumping for those who didn't see the update.







Also, this version of the letter is slightly different from the one I originally posted.


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## auntiehallie (Apr 25, 2005)

Quote:

I am not sure I completely agree that corporal
punishment is never to be employed but certainly using it as a
parent's first defense or primary discipline tool was effectively and
brilliantly countered by your thoughts.
i would be amazed (and probably a little distrustful) if after a single letter he claimed to be a changed man... i think if you are really going to rethink your position on such a personally-involved issue, it's always going to take time. it's very encouraging, though. good for you for speaking up for what you believe in. and thank you also for being so generous in sharing your hard work so freely.

i didn't see an answer, how you would like to be credited. who can i say wrote it, if you allow your name to be given out?


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## smeisnotapirate (Aug 24, 2007)

YAY!

You go, momma!


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## VivC (Jan 4, 2008)

Thanks for bumping this so I could read it!

What a wonderful response from your pastor!!!


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## RockStarMom (Sep 11, 2005)

That is awesome that your pastor gave such a positive response.
And WOW! Your letter is AWESOME!!!


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

You are wonderful! I'm glad you got a positive response.


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## tarajean56 (May 2, 2007)

I'm so glad your letter came back up on the main page, I was searching for it and couldn't find it. I want to share it with my husband. Very well written!


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

Thank you all so much. We learn a lot from all of you wonderful parents here!







:


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## leewd (Aug 14, 2005)

subbing


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## mlleoiseau (Jun 28, 2005)

That is a beautiful letter. I am going to send it to our preacher. On Father's Day, the bible class teacher brought up spanking and its benefits. And in the sermon, the preacher even said something advocating spanking. Everyone there I know of is pro-spanking. All the little kids except dd are always getting popped for something during services.







:


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Bumping because this letter is amazing. I have used it (with permission from and credit to the OP) several times to explain my Christian position regarding gentle discipline and it has gone over so well.


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## PrayinFor12 (Aug 25, 2007)

I've only read the OP, but

I am SO impressed! You wrote that so well. It's clear and easy to understand. And there's no grumpiness or anger in it. You did far better than I could have. Way to go!


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## want2bmoms (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maryjane* 
I had missed your OP about this, but I am blown away by your letter! How incredibly powerful. I am not Christian (Jewish), but found your letter to be an invaluable message for all people -- whether of faith or not.









Very Well written, I am also not christian, but do feel that you letter is very powerful and meaningful. I greatly encourage you to send this out to groups like "our daily bread" and "lightpost"(?) as well as Focus on the family and Dr. Dobson, and other christian groups. I would also encourage you to send this out to your local newpaper, maybe letter to the editor or ask abby, etc. Also, to other churches in your area. All of these, of course, with a print out of the resources which you are intending to send to your pastor.

You did an excellent job,







and managed to transcend religeous barriers/disagreements, while still including religeous passages, If I made any sense there.


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