# Shame, if appropriate, why not?



## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Many here on mdc are against shaming their child when they have misbehaved. I hope I don't get blasted too hard because I really don't understand and I am here to be enlightened. Please be gentle with me.
So, my dd is only 10 months which tells you how much parenting experience I have. However, I think in real life, when I do something wrong I feel ashamed of my self. Likewise, shouldn't my dd feel ashamed when she does something wrong. I do not agree with public shaming, but between me and my dd when I am teaching her, for example, that hitting hurts, shouldn't she feel bad/ashamed for her actions. I am a gentle person, I wouldn't berate or belittle her, but isn't there a place for feeling ashamed as she is learning about real life?


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## accountclosed3 (Jun 13, 2006)

shame asserts that the individual lacks value and inhibits natural, effortless being. that is, shaming asserts that the core person is "lesser" or "bad."

remorse is an appropriate emotion for when one has done wrong, as remorse asserts that the *action* was wrong, not that the person was *bad*.

shaming, therefore, is inappropriate because it harms the core being by devaluing and demeaning that being, whereas remorse or pointing out the ethical situation (depending upon the age-appropriateness, etc) speaks only to the action and it's consequence (this action harmed another, or this action harmed myself).


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## KarmaJoy (Jan 25, 2006)

Subbing. Good question.


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoebird* 
shame asserts that the individual lacks value and inhibits natural, effortless being. that is, shaming asserts that the core person is "lesser" or "bad."

remorse is an appropriate emotion for when one has done wrong, as remorse asserts that the *action* was wrong, not that the person was *bad*.

shaming, therefore, is inappropriate because it harms the core being by devaluing and demeaning that being, whereas remorse or pointing out the ethical situation (depending upon the age-appropriateness, etc) speaks only to the action and it's consequence (this action harmed another, or this action harmed myself).

This. I was going to post but Zoebird said it ten times better.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

I would also ask what your core belief is about the importance of shame. I'm wondering if you perhaps have the mistaken notion that making children feel ashamed is necessary for them to learn to care about the feelings of other people. I can share that in our experience this is not the case. We don't shame and we don't punish. We do have honest conversations about how our actions affect other people. Our son is developing into a person with deep care and concern about how his actions affect other people AND he's got a strong core belief that he is a kind person who won't always get it right, but will keep trying. Shame can get in the way of those core beliefs a person has about themselves and ultimately make them less able to be caring and kind to themselves and others.

I'm wondering Shami how you imagine the shaming process going. Let's take an example - a kid draws with marker on the wall. What would you say and how would that work?


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Roar, how old is the kid or a better question is do they already "know" not to draw on a wall?


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Zoebird. Remorse is definitely better than shame. I think a person may first feel shame which hopefully turns to remorse. Also, you are separating the person from the action in order to protect the person from feeling devalued. I have trouble separating the person from the action. If I steal from my Grandmother, I, the person, am to blame. Everyone fails in life and hopefully I would feel ashamed and eventually remorseful, and return the stolen item to my Grandmother.


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## aaronsmom (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
Zoebird. Remorse is definitely better than shame. I think a person may first feel shame which hopefully turns to remorse. Also, you are separating the person from the action in order to protect the person from feeling devalued. I have trouble separating the person from the action. If I steal from my Grandmother, I, the person, am to blame. Everyone fails in life and hopefully I would feel ashamed and eventually remorseful, and return the stolen item to my Grandmother.

If you feel shame it is because of your *own* morals and values. Generally, children aren't old enough to have a set of their own morals and values. You shouldn't impose your own on a child to make them feel shame from an external source.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
Roar, how old is the kid or a better question is do they already "know" not to draw on a wall?

How about you choose. What would the shaming look like in a three year old versus say a seven year old? How do you see that conversation going?


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## milletpuff (Jul 4, 2008)

I don't have any kids yet, but I know that it took me a good 4 or 5 years of therapy, healing and recovery work to move from a shame reaction (that paralyzed me and made me want to run away and usually spiralled out of control) to a guilt reaction (that allowed me to feel the pain and the discomfort of my action and to move on from there).

Shame has never been useful to me personally -- and I absolutely agree that it isn't a prerequisite for compassion, empathy, or learning about social appropriateness. When I experience it now, it gets in the way of me clearly and realistically seeing my part in a situation and taking the appropriate action to make amends.


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## KarmaJoy (Jan 25, 2006)

Can I jump in here with a question? So when my nearly 3 year old bites a baby at a play area (this happened once)...

I say things like, "Skyla, that was very mean. You hurt that baby. Would you want to be bit? We shouldn't hurt other people, it is wrong to hurt hurt people."

Is this shaming?


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

nak
roar
3 yr olds don't have much impulse control so i would just explain why we dont draw on walls, ask her to help clean it and then *kick* myself for letting her get to markers unsupervised.
7 yr old i want to know why first. was she angry at me. i would give other ways to express anger. bored? white walls needed color? i'd tell her to ask me next time. we could paint her room or designate awall just for coloring. i'd explain i am vry upset that you did this to our house (is this shaming?). that it costs mama tme and money to fix it. you will help pay for it and help fixit. Until you use markers responsibly i will keep them and supervise you r use of them (is this shaming?)


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

nak
aaronmom i do plan togive her my value?morals. how can you avoid it? you model your values all day for your kids. isn't it kind of by osmosis?

karmajoy this is how i plan to speak to dd when older. maybe a child can feel ashamed for biting in a healthy way. this is what i am thinking...that if done without belittling a coversation like karmajoys could create a healthy shame resulting in remorse.


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## aaronsmom (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
nak
aaronmom i do plan togive her my value?morals. how can you avoid it? you model your values all day for your kids. isn't it kind of by osmosis?

karmajoy this is how i plan to speak to dd when older. maybe a child can feel ashamed for biting in a healthy way. this is what i am thinking...that if done without belittling a coversation like karmajoys could create a healthy shame resulting in remorse.

I'm not saying don't model your values for her. I'm saying don't _force_ them on her by shaming.


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## Kirstyandgirls (Nov 8, 2007)

Can someone give me an example of 'shaming' I'm not sure I get it.

Ok, so if my dd bites the baby, what would I say that would be shaming? And how could it be said better?


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## MelKnee (Dec 5, 2001)

I think the only valuable shaming is when it comes from oneself. When I am ashamed of myself, I learn. When someone else shames me, I just feel embarrassed, self-conscious and defensive. Not really conducive to learning.


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## library lady (Sep 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
nak
aaronmom i do plan togive her my value?morals. how can you avoid it? you model your values all day for your kids. isn't it kind of by osmosis?

karmajoy this is how i plan to speak to dd when older. maybe a child can feel ashamed for biting in a healthy way. this is what i am thinking...that if done without belittling a coversation like karmajoys could create a healthy shame resulting in remorse.

According to the definition on Answers.com, shame is:

Quote:

1. a. A painful emotion caused by a strong sense of guilt, embarrassment, unworthiness, or disgrace.
b. Capacity for such a feeling: Have you no shame?
2. One that brings dishonor, disgrace, or condemnation.
3. A condition of disgrace or dishonor; ignominy.
4. A great disappointment.
I think the problem that comes with shame is that you are trying to force a kid to feel strong emotions that they do not always understand. Those strong emotions cause a kid to question their worth. Correcting somebody should not cause them to feel like a complete failure. If you are an adult at a new job, how would you react if your boss told you that you should be ashamed of yourself for doing X when you were not clear on the concept of X to begin with. I think I would be pretty upset because shaming me is not necessary. I can apologize for doing it wrong and correct my behavior without being ashamed . There is no need to be ashamed of something when you were short on the concept to begin with.

A 7 year old that draws on the walls may not fully get the gravity of the situation and may not realize what a huge PITA it is because it makes the walls ugly and requires money to fix. Asking them to help you clean it up is perfectly acceptable because you are teaching them what is involved in cleaning it up/fixing it. Explaining why the behavior is wrong is quite a bit different than making a kid feel like a worthless piece of crap because they screwed up.

Have you ever done something that you regretted doing because it was the wrong thing to do rather than because you were ashamed of yourself?

I feel like the only time shame might be good is if the person that has misbehaved has done so in a completely precalculated and nasty way. I tend to be optimistic when it comes to kids and I just don't think kids are capable of being nasty and calculating to the extent that they would need to be shamed. Shame implies that you are a bad person. At least that is the way I have always thought about it. I hope I am making an ounce of sense. I have been interupted so please forgive if I ramble.


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## aaronsmom (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MelKnee* 
I think the only valuable shaming is when it comes from oneself. When I am ashamed of myself, I learn. When someone else shames me, I just feel embarrassed, self-conscious and defensive. Not really conducive to learning.

You totally just said what I was trying to say. Except you did it better.


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## jlutgendorf (Aug 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirstyandgirls* 
Can someone give me an example of 'shaming' I'm not sure I get it.

Ok, so if my dd bites the baby, what would I say that would be shaming? And how could it be said better?

I think it would be shaming to say "how horrible of you to bite the baby! don't you know that only mean nasty girls bite babies? What's wrong with you!?"

You're telling her she's horrible, mean, nasty, wrong and maybe even stupid (Don't you know&#8230;implying that she doesn't and she should).

IMO, shaming doesn't teach anything, all you're doing is heaping on a bunch of blame and calling into question the person's inherent self worth.

I don't think there's really a time that it's ever appropriate to shame children, they're still learning ethics, appropriate behaviours, dealing with new situations, etc.

Where it gets murky (for me) is in situations with adults. Would it be appropriate to shame your 22 year old child for stealing a younger siblings allowance? They (in theory) "know better".

~Julia


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

There's a nice article on shame at Jan Hunt's The Natural Child Project

http://www.naturalchild.org/robin_gr..._children.html


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## birdie22 (Apr 1, 2005)

I think shame is when you feel like you are inferior or worthless as a human being. Shaming is when you communicate to a child that he is a bad person because of what he did.

I think there's a fine line between appropriate consequences and shaming punishment. For example, if ds hits his friend, I might take him aside for a break (time out) while we talk about what caused him to hit, why it's wrong to hit, what he can do differently next time, and how to make it better with his friend. A more shaming approach would be to berate him in front of his friend, put him in a cold-shoulder time out, and drag him over to his friend while loudly insisting that he apologize. In both scenarios, the consequence for hitting is a timeout followed by an apology, but the former hopefully teaches appropriate behavior while the latter breeds resentment and models bossiness/aggression.

The whole point of GD is to help a child grow a conscience that will be his internal guide through life. That means if he does something that he considers to be immoral, he will feel some healthy guilt. Hopefully he will know that the best way to deal with the discomfort of guilt is to make amends to the one offended and to learn from his mistakes. I believe it's the role of parents to help a child figure out what values and morals are important, which we accomplish much more by example than by punishment and behaviorism.

I think using shame as a discipline tool can result in someone for whom mistakes are so painful that they go to extreme lengths (as an adult) to justify themselves and always be "right." Or on the other had, he may end up believing himself to be not only worthless, but helpless to change.

Sorry this is so long; I'm sure some of the other mamas can say it better than me, and I have alot to learn myself.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

I think that a child will learn to feel bad naturally, if that makes sense.

To me, shaming is emotional manipulation and it is often an exaggeration of reality that makes the child view themselves as bad.

I think it's important not to tear kids down, and that there's a way to let them know what's OK and what's not OK without making them take it personally and question their value as human beings. Even if they make mistakes, they are still valuable people. I think a shaming can also overwhelm whatever the problem was.

I don't want to make my kids feel like they are awful or unworthy. I'd rather have them know that sometimes they mess up and sometimes they make mistakes and sometimes they are uncooperative, etc., but that in the big picture they are loved and they are very secure in their self-worth.


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
I would also ask what your core belief is about the importance of shame. I'm wondering if you perhaps have the mistaken notion that making children feel ashamed is necessary for them to learn to care about the feelings of other people. I can share that in our experience this is not the case. We don't shame and we don't punish. We do have honest conversations about how our actions affect other people. Our son is developing into a person with deep care and concern about how his actions affect other people AND he's got a strong core belief that he is a kind person who won't always get it right, but will keep trying. Shame can get in the way of those core beliefs a person has about themselves and ultimately make them less able to be caring and kind to themselves and others.

I'm wondering Shami how you imagine the shaming process going. Let's take an example - a kid draws with marker on the wall. What would you say and how would that work?

This is our family too.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

I view shame as a very specific feeling. My ILs have a tendency to say "shame on you" to the grandkids. I went ballistic once because my SIL said that to DS. He was 2, and he (along with her kids) climbed on the pool table. Incidentally I didn't care, but that's a different story. Even if they'd been expressly forbidden and did it anyway, that was not a reason to feel "ashamed." For me, being ashamed of an action results when that action hurts significantly or is morally wrong in a way that far exceeds everyday missteps by children still learning. So, although a 3YO knows you've said not to bite, that 3YO might, in the heat of an argument, do it. There's no reason to shame the child; it's a teaching moment. I don't think something like writing on the wall ever rises to the level of shame, barring that writing being hate-speech graffitied somewhere.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aaronsmom* 
If you feel shame it is because of your *own* morals and values. Generally, children aren't old enough to have a set of their own morals and values. You shouldn't impose your own on a child to make them feel shame from an external source.

I disagree. When I tell my children not to hit or bite, not to grab toys from each other, that's imposing my morals and values. Imposing morals is what I see as the core of discipline. It's how you teach them to be kind, decent people.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
nak
roar
3 yr olds don't have much impulse control so i would just explain why we dont draw on walls, ask her to help clean it and then *kick* myself for letting her get to markers unsupervised.
7 yr old i want to know why first. was she angry at me. i would give other ways to express anger. bored? white walls needed color? i'd tell her to ask me next time. we could paint her room or designate awall just for coloring. i'd explain i am vry upset that you did this to our house (is this shaming?). that it costs mama tme and money to fix it. you will help pay for it and help fixit. Until you use markers responsibly i will keep them and supervise you r use of them (is this shaming?)

Did you see this as a shaming response Shami?

I don't see looking at the underlying causes for misbehavior and trying to find a solution to fix the problem and prevent it from occurring in the future to be about shaming the child at all. Much of it is of course about the tone. You could make this shamful by saying/yelling something like "you selfish brat, how dare you ruin my things, you are going to pay for this".

Nothing about gentle discipline precludes an honest discussion of why the action caused problems or why we need to work together to fix it. And, really if your end goal is to raise a child who cares about how other people feel - the best way to do that is to care about how they fell. Piling on shame and negative labels doesn't make them more able to notice other people's feelings or more interested in pleasing. It just makes them feel like crap about themselves.

Everyone - please read the Jan Hunt article that was posted. It is really good!


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KarmaJoy* 

I say things like, "Skyla, that was very mean. You hurt that baby. Would you want to be bit? We shouldn't hurt other people, it is wrong to hurt hurt people."


One thing I'd keep in mind is that this can be a lot of words for a three year old during an emotional situation. That can be a lot to process and she may not really understand what you are saying (even if she can understand similarly complex things at less emotional times). Sometimes less is more. "Biting hurts. We don't bite people" and then redirecting her to an appropriate way she can make up to the baby or interact with the baby.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBecks* 
I think that a child will learn to feel bad naturally, if that makes sense.

To me, shaming is emotional manipulation and it is often an exaggeration of reality that makes the child view themselves as bad.

I think it's important not to tear kids down, and that there's a way to let them know what's OK and what's not OK without making them take it personally and question their value as human beings. Even if they make mistakes, they are still valuable people. I think a shaming can also overwhelm whatever the problem was.

I don't want to make my kids feel like they are awful or unworthy. I'd rather have them know that sometimes they mess up and sometimes they make mistakes and sometimes they are uncooperative, etc., but that in the big picture they are loved and they are very secure in their self-worth.

ITA. I think it's really great for kids to feel ashamed. It's a sign of normal development, and that feeling is important for them to learn how they don't want to behave. I know I have felt ashamed of my actions before, and I avoid repeating them because I don't want to feel ashamed again.

And I agree that _shaming_ is the act of trying to make someone else feel ashamed. This is "un-gentle", IMO, because it implies that you, too, are ashamed of that person. It's very painful for a child to think that their parent is ashamed of them, and I think more often than not it creates a flurry of emotions in the child that makes it impossible for the child to learn. If children feel ashamed, I don't think parents should try to prevent or encourage that, but just let their kids learn from it.

And to the pp who asked if what she said to her three year old was shaming, I don't think so. But I know I've said things to my children that are shaming, but wouldn't seem like it on paper. Like, "Luther, do not hit your brother with the bat!" But the tone of voice, body language, and facial expression mean so much.


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## KarmaJoy (Jan 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
One thing I'd keep in mind is that this can be a lot of words for a three year old during an emotional situation. That can be a lot to process and she may not really understand what you are saying (even if she can understand similarly complex things at less emotional times). Sometimes less is more. "Biting hurts. We don't bite people" and then redirecting her to an appropriate way she can make up to the baby or interact with the baby.

These are just examples that I said in the several conversations we had about (right then, before bed when we talk about the day, and the next time we went to that store.) so it wasn't all at once. But would you consider any of it "shaming?"

What about "You were mean" vs. "You were being mean?" vs. "Biting is mean?"

Which statements are shaming?


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KarmaJoy* 

What about "You were mean" vs. "You were being mean?" vs. "Biting is mean?"


Terms like "mean" and "nice" are abstractions that often aren't particularly helpful with preschoolers. I'd be more inclined to use "hurts" than mean. Kids fall down or bump into things and get hurt. If you use the word when they are hurt they start to learn what that means a lot sooner than they get abstractions like "mean".


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I'm not really sure what you mean by making your kids feel ashamed or how you think they will show they feel ashamed. I tend to get angry at myself when I feel ashamed of something I did and if someone tries to confront me with it I turn that anger on them, that isn't really a constructive thing and I really don't think that it would be a learning situation for a child. I think it is more constructive to talk about what the child did when they are ready to talk, how to make amends, and what is going to happen next time. Going on and on about how bad something is in an attempt to get a reaction that shows shame isn't addressing the problem and it isn't teaching the child what to do next time, it models how to ungraciously respond to behavior from someone that you don't care for.


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## justthinkn (Apr 11, 2008)

What an interesting thread! Two ideas jump out at me. One is avoiding "physical shame" - essentially, when a child is held up to standards that are developmentally inappropriate, too high or nuanced or whatever, thus causing the child to feel intrinsically inadequate. (The three year old spalshes water while washing her hands, and Mommy yells for being messy, etc.) This could be about the behavior that is undesirable or even how we talk to them about it, what we expect them to understand... And two, the idea that discipline should give the child the opportunity to correct their mistake, thus truly teaching and allowing them to build their dignity in the process, rather than losing it. (Mommy teaches the 3-year old to wipe the sink down after washing her hands, etc.)

I have so many memories of the exact opposite of these two principles...


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## Panthira (Jun 13, 2005)

In some cultures, shame is the most useful tool. Shaming your family was the most horrible thing you could do. For example, I believe it was the Anasaze (native Americans) who would ostracise a child completely from the family or even the tribe as the ultimate punishment for shaming the family. They didn't usually use any physical violence and didn't believe in yelling.


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## Greenmama2AJ (Jan 10, 2008)

I don't believe that just because something like shame exists in many cultures, even traditional ones, means that it is an inherently good thing to do.
There are traditional cultures that use ritualistic scarring and hair plucking, circumcision and stonings. Just because you're part of a traditional culture doesn't mean your rituals are gentle or fair.

Shame works because humans have a deep, intrinsic need to belong to a group. Shame is used as a punishment to ostrasize people from the group by implying they are bad and that they have caused deep disappointment.

I personally don't believe you need to shame people to make them feel empathy or sorry for their actions.
A child can feel that their parent is disappointed in them without the parent needing to belittle or insult the child. You dont need to shame a child for them to feel ashamed.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I would actually argue that shame is counterproductive because it makes the child focus on _themselves_ rather than how their actions affect another person. Maybe I'm particularly sensitive to this because our ds tends to 'freeze' when he feels a strong negative emotion, and it's taken a lot of hard work to get him to begin to acknowledge others' feelings when he's done something to hurt someone.

So, if my 7 year old drew on the walls (unlikely, but you never know), a shaming response would be (in my view):

"Ack!!! How could you do that!? You're not 2 any more! You know better than that! Look at that mess. You baby! That's the kind of thing a baby does!"

a non-shaming response would be:

"Ack!!! How could you do that?! [I confess, I'm not perfect, that would be my first reaction.] Do you see that the wall is messy now? I'm mad because I'm not sure we can get sharpie off the wall. Go get a rag, and I'll get the cleanser and you'll work on washing this off. If that doesn't work, we'll have to see what else we can do."


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

OP Here! Reading all of your responses helped me understand myself and my thinking. I was thinking more about my dd feeling shame for doing something wrong rather than me shaming her into feeling bad about her behavior.

I realize that in communicating with her and trying to help her when she misbehaves or hurts another person, my words may enlighten her, and I hope they do, to understand and feel bad about hurting someone. By doing this, even in the most gentle way, she may experience the feeling of shame. This is what I was referring to in my OP. I do agree that it is not necessary for her to feel shame in order to have empathy for another person. However, if she feels ashamed all on her own after I have explained/taught her how her actions hurt someone...well this kind of shame can be beneficial and lead her to feel remorseful.

I don't know if I am making any sense to you all, but in my mind I make perfect sense and all of your posts helped me figure it out! Thanks!

I am still open to hear more. Many of your posts said that any kind of shame is a bad thing, but how about the way that I am describing it?


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