# washed her mouth out with soap!!



## cal (Oct 28, 2004)

I'm at work right now and called DH-he told me he just washed out 3year old dd's mouth with soap because she spit at him-she was happy all day-I'm not sure what happened to make her do that-I hung up on DH because he started ranting and raving about me alaways trying to get him to parent differently-I think this manner of disciplining is so wrong !!I have one more hour to go here at work -and I'm so upset!!What would you do???


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

I'd tell him to call poison control and list off all the things that is IN soap.

That's disgusting!


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

What would *I* do? Honestly? Never leave him with her again, unless you can get through to him & are 100% sure he won't do that again. Not ok...


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## Datura (Mar 18, 2005)

That's terrible







I'd put some soap in his drink and see how much he likes it.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

That is abusive on so many levels. Honestly I would be telling him to a) apologize to her and b) if he ever did anything of the sort ever again that he would be hearing from my lawyer.


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## StayAtHomeMama21 (Nov 6, 2006)

Are you kidding me? PUH-LEEZE she spit at him. She needs to learn you don't spit at anyone, most importantly the people that gave you the gift of life.

Granted, no I wouldn't have used soap, this is hardly child abuse.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Nobody here is saying that spitting should be ignored- we're saying that putting soap in her mouth is NOT the right way to teach her not to spit again.

I would look right in the child's eyes and say "do NOT spit on me. It's not nice."

Then I'd try to figure out what the underlying problem is (child hungry? bored? overtired? needs attention?) and meet the child's needs.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Of course spitting is not acceptable StayAtHome. But bullying, humiliating and potentially harming a child's health are much MORE unacceptable in my view. After all, the child is still learning acceptable behavior. An adult should know better than to bully a vulnerable person like this. There are many ways to teach and guide a child without resorting to degradation and violation of the child's body.

OP, I would have a serious heart-to-heart with DH and involve a counselor if need be. If you cannot agree on a resolution, personally, I would not leave my child in the care of someone who would resort to methods like this. Best wishes.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
What would *I* do? Honestly? Never leave him with her again, unless you can get through to him & are 100% sure he won't do that again. Not ok...









ITA

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
That is abusive on so many levels. Honestly I would be telling him to a) apologize to her and b) if he ever did anything of the sort ever again that he would be hearing from my lawyer.









( I wish the smilie wasn't smiling here)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StayAtHomeMama21* 
Are you kidding me? PUH-LEEZE she spit at him. She needs to learn you don't spit at anyone, most importantly the people that gave you the gift of life.

Granted, no I wouldn't have used soap, this is hardly child abuse.

It certainly isn't GD, which is what Mothering is here to discuss, support and advocate.


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## delphiniumpansy (Mar 1, 2007)

When you are both calm, I would ask him what he wanted to teach her by washing out her mouth with soap. Ask him if he thought she learned the lesson he wanted. Chances are that what she learned is that dh can be a bully and do nasty things to her and she probably does not understand why. She certainly is not going to learn to be polite and not spit by having her mouth washed out. So, have him brainstorm with you what he wants her to learn and how she can go about learning that every day. What can you do together to help her learn to be polite and handle her problems respectfully. Also, if wants her to be nice to him he has to learn not to go after her in anger. Going after her in anger is just going to teach her to do the same. Don't fight over this. Just ask him calmly and rationally how to truly teach her to be a good person and come up with a game plan to handle mishaps in a more kind manner in the future.

Because, this is clearly a man who needs to rethink his methods. You reap what you sow. So, what does he want to sow? The main point of GD is to teach our kids to be kind, respectful people without harming them. Discipline requires teaching. Both your dh and your dd need to be taught some lessons here.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

If he is ranting and raving over you wanting to parent differently I'd be taking a good long look at the type of parenting he was raised with. Because if he is soaping his kids, then one can be pretty certain it was authoritarian and not gentle. How does he feel about the parenting he recieved as a child? What is his relationship with his parents like? How does he feel about his childhood ?

The answers will tell you a few things about how to handle this situation.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StayAtHomeMama21* 
Are you kidding me? PUH-LEEZE she spit at him. She needs to learn you don't spit at anyone, most importantly the people that gave you the gift of life.

Granted, no I wouldn't have used soap, this is hardly child abuse.


Shoving a bar of soap into a 3 yr. old's mouth is VERY abusive. And if my husband was ignorant enough to think this was ok he would cease being my husband. Period.


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## Lia & Eva's Mama (Jul 10, 2007)

i think you should go home and tell your hubby that he needs to find a better way to handle the situation should it arise again. he may not like the way you decipline but soap?? who does that anymore??? you have to make him understand that thier are better ways to teach a child and give him other options.
i hope your hubby can jump on board with GD, or at the least be more gentle. keeping your child from him is not a good option a child needs time with dad too.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lia & Eva's Mama* 
i think you should go home and tell your hubby that he needs to find a better way to handle the situation should it arise again. he may not like the way you decipline but soap?? who does that anymore??? you have to make him understand that thier are better ways to teach a child and give him other options.
i hope your hubby can jump on board with GD, or at the least be more gentle. keeping your child from him is not a good option a child needs time with dad too.

Then dad should work on his "parenting" and be a little more responsible & less childish. It's up to him.


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## goodheartedmama (Feb 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StayAtHomeMama21* 
Are you kidding me? PUH-LEEZE she spit at him. She needs to learn you don't spit at anyone, most importantly the people that gave you the gift of life.

Granted, no I wouldn't have used soap, this is hardly child abuse.

Sheesh, it is to me, and hopefully to everyone on here. I vividly remember having my mouth washed out with soap for talking back, and it was horrible. It's disgusting.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

we made that mistake with ds when he was about 3. I think he was cussing and we thought we were supposed to put an end to it.









Afterwards, we were more exausted than he was and feeling like totally the worlds worst parents.

It SUCKED.

For all involved.

It WAS abuse. I did it. I know it was abuse.









Did your dh think it sucked or was he in favor of his strategy?


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goodheartedmama* 
Sheesh, it is to me, and hopefully to everyone on here. I vividly remember having my mouth washed out with soap for talking back, and it was horrible. It's disgusting.









Noone ever did it to me BUT I remember being little and curious & once in the tub I took a BITE of a bar of soap. I will NEVER forget the taste. If you haven't ever had soap in your mouth you won't understand, it's WORSE than what you imagine. And it STAYS a LONG time.


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## AidynElyMama (Dec 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lia & Eva's Mama* 
i think you should go home and tell your hubby that he needs to find a better way to handle the situation should it arise again. he may not like the way you decipline but soap?? who does that anymore??? you have to make him understand that thier are better ways to teach a child and give him other options.
i hope your hubby can jump on board with GD, or at the least be more gentle. keeping your child from him is not a good option a child needs time with dad too.









:

My DH and I had different ideas about parenting too, and he used to get frustrated when I would tell him how I thought it should be. I think it's important to talk to him, find out specifically what it is you do that he doesn't like, voice your concerns about his methods, and then try to find a middle, common approach that you are both happy about and agree with. Once DH and I talked this out, we were able to provide a more united front and consistent method our children, and we and they are better for it. Hang in there mama!


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Having common ground is great as long as it's GD. Common ground can not come at the expense of our kids well being. Especially if a parent has not come to terms with their own childhood, which is often the reason they promote authoritarian parenting and abusive discipline like soaping.


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## AidynElyMama (Dec 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
Having common ground is great as long as it's GD. Common ground can not come at the expense of our kids well being. Especially if a parent has not come to terms with their own childhood, which is often the reason they promote authoritarian parenting and abusive discipline like soaping.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

I've been immersed in and practicing GD since my son was first born. My son spit in my face once when he was about 3. I smacked him on the leg. Hard. It was so awful I can hardly stand to think about it. It's the one time in his 7 years that I've hit him (or even come close to hitting him). I say this only to point out that spitting in someone's face is such a personal affront that it can drive even GD people to lash out with pure, gut reaction.

I agree that what your husband did was completely unacceptable and that it's imperative that he learn methods of discipline that are not abusive. I don't think that threatening to divorce him is going to get you there. IME, fathers (and mothers, of course) cannot approach a situation rationally when someone is threatening to take their child away.

At the very least, let him know that this could poison your daughter. Then try using some GD on him. You can be firm in asserting your boundaries and also be respectful - just as you would do with your child.


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

Forcing a child to ingest soap can be life-threatening if the child reacts to any ingredients, and it is quite possible that she will be somewhat sick just from the taste. It is abusive, dangerous and there should be no compromise on this particular issue.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
I've been immersed in and practicing GD since my son was first born. My son spit in my face once when he was about 3. I smacked him on the leg. Hard. It was so awful I can hardly stand to think about it. It's the one time in his 7 years that I've hit him (or even come close to hitting him). I say this only to point out that spitting in someone's face is such a personal affront that it can drive even GD people to lash out with pure, gut reaction.

I agree that what your husband did was completely unacceptable and that it's imperative that he learn methods of discipline that are not abusive. I don't think that threatening to divorce him is going to get you there. IME, fathers (and mothers, of course) cannot approach a situation rationally when someone is threatening to take their child away.

At the very least, let him know that this could poison your daughter. Then try using some GD on him. You can be firm in asserting your boundaries and also be respectful - just as you would do with your child.

Allow me to clarify my position then...

I would work VERY hard to make him understand. If, in the end, he flattly refused to change & intended to continue the abuse he would be gone. My child will not live like that.

And







re: the rest of your post. I hit my oldest child once too. The look of horror in his precious face was more than enough to convince me I was a jerk & never to do it again.







:


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dulce de leche* 
Forcing a child to ingest soap can be life-threatening if the child reacts to any ingredients, and it is quite possible that she will be somewhat sick just from the taste. It is abusive, dangerous and there should be no compromise on this particular issue.









:


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
I would work VERY hard to make him understand. If, in the end, he flattly refused to change & intended to continue the abuse he would be gone. My child will not live like that.

That I absolutely agree with.









And







right back to you. I bawled like a baby when it happened. Seeing the look on his face was like a blow to the stomach. So horrifying. I don't know how people can ever think it's acceptable to make their children feel like that.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
That I absolutely agree with.









And







right back to you. I bawled like a baby when it happened. Seeing the look on his face was like a blow to the stomach. So horrifying. I don't know how people can ever think it's acceptable to make their children feel like that.

Nor do I.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Actually, according to the CPS manuals in many states, that is clearly stated to be abusive and may be grounds for removal. Perhaps that tidbit will help your husband to curb his tantrums.


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## Krystal323 (May 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette* 
Actually, according to the CPS manuals in many states, that is clearly stated to be abusive and may be grounds for removal. Perhaps that tidbit will help your husband to curb his tantrums.









:


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cal* 
I'm at work right now and called DH-he told me he just washed out 3year old dd's mouth with soap because she spit at him-she was happy all day-I'm not sure what happened to make her do that-I hung up on DH because he started ranting and raving about me alaways trying to get him to parent differently-I think this manner of disciplining is so wrong !!I have one more hour to go here at work -and I'm so upset!!What would you do???


Eh....

She'll live.

What would I do?

I would calmly (calmly) have a discussion with my hubby and let him know what I expected. I would also talk to him about his expectations. We would work it out.... No biggie.....

Your hubby was probably stressed. He had a bad day. People make mistakes......


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## Datura (Mar 18, 2005)

Well, yes people make mistakes, but it took a long time to make that one. It would have had to have happened, he'd have had to react, decide to wash the kid's mouth out, drag said kid to the bathroom, hold them down and do it. I can understand slapping out of reaction but not so much with the drawn out stuff.

I had my mouth washed out several times and it sucked. Honestly in hindsight it was very intrusive, almost in a rapelike way. Being held down, struggling and having something crammed in my mouth. I guess it was meant to be analagous to "cleaning" my "dirty" mouth (I still curse like a sailor, thank ya kindly), but it just seems mean. And for spitting, I particularly don't get how it was a "fitting" punishment. I guess it was meant to inflict discomfort in the offending area.

I don't imagine that he was being intentionally abusive, but it does qualify as abuse in my book.







Sometimes people fall back on the old standards of discipline (which unfortunately this one qualifies as) without thinking them through.


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

I'd have a very serious chat with the husband. I'd explain the difference between discipline and abuse. I'd suggest some family therapy to help you all find some common ground on discipline. Kids spit. It's not like she tried to stab him. My 1st went through a spitting stage. We redirected her outside. Spit as much as you want there. I can't imagine loving a man who would do such a thing. It would cause great harm to my marriage.


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## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Datura* 
Well, yes people make mistakes, but it took a long time to make that one. It would have had to have happened, he'd have had to react, decide to wash the kid's mouth out, drag said kid to the bathroom, hold them down and do it. I can understand slapping out of reaction but not so much with the drawn out stuff.

I think this is what impacted me the most when I read the OP. Mouth washing is deliberate and drawn out. Had she posted "My husband popped her on the mouth" I'd be more inclined to say, "You know, maybe he was at his wit's end, and GD goes out the window sometimes when you're most stressed It's not right, but for next time a better idea for him would be ..." Because popping and slapping tend to be knee jerk reactions (they spit, you slap, they touch the stove you pop their hands). *It's not right*, but these can be chalked up to heat of the moment mistakes, I'm sure many MDC moms and dads have made them here, and I don't consider them abuse (unless it happens every single day, then you've got a temper problem.). But to drag your kid to the bathroom or kitchen, and hold them down while washing out their mouth is not a spur of the moment action.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab* 
Eh....

She'll live.

What would I do?

I would calmly (calmly) have a discussion with my hubby and let him know what I expected. I would also talk to him about his expectations. We would work it out.... No biggie.....

Your hubby was probably stressed. He had a bad day. People make mistakes......

Note above. This was deliberate, not a mistake. A mistake would have been popping her on the mouth. And I'm sure she'll live, but with what? Fear of her father? Being traumatized, getting sick? I don't pretend to know the sensitivity level of her _3 year old_ daughter. Sure, the girl may bounce back like nothing ever happened...or...she may decide to clam up and never try anything new for fear of punishment, or avoid the bathroom, or any other reaction within that spectrum. _We don't know._

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
I'd have a very serious chat with the husband. I'd explain the difference between discipline and abuse. I'd suggest some family therapy to help you all find some common ground on discipline. Kids spit. It's not like she tried to stab him. My 1st went through a spitting stage. We redirected her outside. Spit as much as you want there. I can't imagine loving a man who would do such a thing. It would cause great harm to my marriage.

I definitely think some serious therapy is needed here. The husband has some issues that he needs to work out from his childhood, and he needs to be informed that these are unacceptable ways to parent.

And I do put myself in the OP's shoes. If my husband were to tell me he hit dd in the heat of the moment, I'd be angry at first, but we would work it out and help him find ways to not get to that point again. (Redirect, time out for daddy, etc) If he called me to say he washed her mouth out, or used tabasco or hit her with an implement, I'd be home in a flash and he'd be out the door even faster. He knows that is completely unacceptable.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Yikes.

Therapy, for sure. NOt b/c there's some HUGE thing wrong with your family, but b/c if you all are at a point where he's locked into "his" way and resentful of you for trying to change it, and you're at the point where you're hanging up on him--it sounds like a neutral, third-party, mediator might REALLY help you all get through to each other much faster (and without further damaging the relationship).

I would be *out of my mind* if my husband did that to our children.

My head would EXPLODE if he went on to defend it and be angry with *me* about it.

I would talk about possible poisons, violating people's bodies (esp. a girl), how it would seriously CHANGE the way I looked at him (and probably the way our kids looked at him), ask him how he would feel if it were done to him (or if he watched someone else do it to our child), and very firmly state that that sort of discipline was 100% OFF THE TABLE for ANYone with my children. And I'd let him know when the counselling appt. was and that he was welcome to come, but I would be going either way to work through my feelings on this matter.

I'm so sorry this happened! Healing hugs for all of you as you work through it!


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## LilWin (Apr 25, 2007)

I'm so sorry this happened to your DD.








I totally agree with everything the pp Monkey's Mom said, and that is what I would do.
It's just so degrading and humiliating, let's hope your DC and DH can quickly fix the bond between them that has been hurt.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab* 
Eh....

She'll live.

What would I do?

I would calmly (calmly) have a discussion with my hubby and let him know what I expected. I would also talk to him about his expectations. We would work it out.... No biggie.....

Your hubby was probably stressed. He had a bad day. People make mistakes......

And she would "live" if he beat her too, likely!









I sure hope your DH never sticks soap in YOUR mouth & tells YOU "you'll live."

Just because she didn't literally die doesn't mean it wasn't a discusting & humiliating thing to endure.


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## sebandg'smama (Oct 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette* 
Actually, according to the CPS manuals in many states, that is clearly stated to be abusive and may be grounds for removal. Perhaps that tidbit will help your husband to curb his tantrums.

In Ontario that would get CAS involved.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Honestly?

I'd throw his ass out until he learned to stop abusing my kid. My tolerance for this kind of crap is 0%.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

I think this is what impacted me the most when I read the OP. Mouth washing is deliberate and drawn out. Had she posted "My husband popped her on the mouth" I'd be more inclined to say, "You know, maybe he was at his wit's end, and GD goes out the window sometimes when you're most stressed It's not right, but for next time a better idea for him would be ..." Because popping and slapping tend to be knee jerk reactions (they spit, you slap, they touch the stove you pop their hands). It's not right, but these can be chalked up to heat of the moment mistakes, I'm sure many MDC moms and dads have made them here, and I don't consider them abuse (unless it happens every single day, then you've got a temper problem.). But to drag your kid to the bathroom or kitchen, and hold them down while washing out their mouth is not a spur of the moment action.
This is what I am thinking too. What he did was deliberate, and he called to brag about it. I would be a mess if I got a call like that from my DH -- partly because it happened, partly because it represents a larger problem that is going to be hard to work through. I feel sick for you, OP, because you are in a tough spot. I personally would not feel comfortable leaving the kids alone with their father again. Which puts you in a terrible position.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
That I absolutely agree with.









And







right back to you. I bawled like a baby when it happened. Seeing the look on his face was like a blow to the stomach. So horrifying. I don't know how people can ever think it's acceptable to make their children feel like that.











I would say your reaction was more a sort of knee-jerk - but this guy had to _go get the soap_, force it in her mouth, et cetera. That's beyond knee-jerk mistake.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
Honestly?

I'd throw his ass out until he learned to stop abusing my kid. My tolerance for this kind of crap is 0%.


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## gargirl (Dec 30, 2006)

I was subjected to this punishment as a child and it was horrible. It didn't teach me anything but that I could not trust my mother. She shoved the soap in my mouth and if I tried to resist she would get more violent, getting soap on her fingers and shoving them in my mouth, cutting my cheeks with her nails.

It was clearly nothing more than a power play. She was showing me that I had no rights to my own body unless she felt like granting them. I believe it was supposed to teach me not to say words she disaproved of, but it only taught me to fear and eventually to pretty much hate her in my childlike way.

In no way can this sort of punishment be considered "gentle discipline." It is a violation of a child's body, one of many that was perpetrated against me that I will NOT be passing along to my sweet children. I am so incredibly sorry that your poor little girl had this done to her. There has to be a way that your husband can see that this is not a tool that should be in his parenting toolbox.







*HUGS*


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gargirl* 
I was subjected to this punishment as a child and it was horrible. It didn't teach me anything but that I could not trust my mother. She shoved the soap in my mouth and if I tried to resist she would get more violent, getting soap on her fingers and shoving them in my mouth, cutting my cheeks with her nails.

It was clearly nothing more than a power play. She was showing me that I had no rights to my own body unless she felt like granting them. I believe it was supposed to teach me not to say words she disaproved of, but it only taught me to fear and eventually to pretty much hate her in my childlike way.

In no way can this sort of punishment be considered "gentle discipline." It is a violation of a child's body, one of many that was perpetrated against me that I will NOT be passing along to my sweet children. I am so incredibly sorry that your poor little girl had this done to her. There has to be a way that your husband can see that this is not a tool that should be in his parenting toolbox.







*HUGS*









I'm sure hearing "you lived" wouldn't help either, hu? I just cannot comprehend downplaying this.







:


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## sapientia (Apr 22, 2007)

I would lose it on him. Not okay to do. Of course at some point I would talk to him about how this is no way to teach anything to a child-except how to resent and lose trust and learn fear. His actions were wrong on many levels.
My mom used to 'wash my mouth out with soap' and make me sit in my room and tell me 'if I see any spit on the floor you're gonna get it.' It was horrible all around. Not necessary and definitely abusive.


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## gargirl (Dec 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 







I'm sure hearing "you lived" wouldn't help either, hu? I just cannot comprehend downplaying this.







:

Yes. I lived through physical, emotional and sexual abuse too. It has left me pretty traumatized overall. I was in therapy for over a decade and still have to deal with the occasional flashback, low self-esteem etc etc. I lived, but I subjected myself to many crappy, abusive relationships as an adult because of it. My life was unhappy until I was almost 30 and finally learned enough to spot and chose a non-abusive partner.

Certainly, mine is much more involved case than simply having a relatively decent parent abuse me on one occasion and learn from it so they then could do better, but abuse has a way of haunting the heart unless it is corrected, apologized for and not repeated.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab* 
People make mistakes......









:










Dh should apologize.









When I make stupid parenting mistakes, thats the one thing that is very consistant. I apologize (usually immedietly) to my child-and ask for forgivness.

My ds is so quick to forgive....and I dont deserve such an awesome child most of the time.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

It's not the child's job to forgive the parent. It's the parent's job to refrain from abusing the child.

I understand when people talk about making mistakes - but where do you draw the line between mistake and abuse? And how many "mistakes" does a child just have to "live through," exactly?


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
It's not the child's job to forgive the parent. It's the parent's job to refrain from abusing the child.

I don't think she was saying it's the child's job to forgive. I think she was saying it's the parent's job to apologize. And it is. He absolutely should apologize. Of course, that would require him understanding that he did something wrong.

The more I'm thinking about this, the more I agree therapy is an excellent idea.

For those of you saying "I'd throw him out," you might want to head over to the Single Parenting forum and see how that works out for the child. Throwing the other parent out of the house doesn't mean throwing him/her out of your child's life. In fact, it usually means having to hand your child over to that person who now has access to your child without your watchful eye.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Oh, that is so mean to do to a person. I consider it abusive.

I would not let it go and let DH know it was entirely unacceptable. I would hold my ground on this and consider other childcare if he truly does not get it.

You two are going to need to have a big talk about care and why this type of behavior is not OK. I hope you can get through to him. Good luck.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
That is abusive on so many levels. Honestly I would be telling him to a) apologize to her and b) if he ever did anything of the sort ever again that he would be hearing from my lawyer.

Actually that is a good point. I have told my DH that if he hurts me that we're done. It' the same rule with the kids. It may be a good time to send out the warning signal and threaten to leave if he is mean to the children. I second the suggestion for therapy or parenting classes too. It's very stressful taking care of kids, but it's no excuse for taking out frustrations on them.


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## delphiniumpansy (Mar 1, 2007)

I think your dh needs to consider what lessons he wants to teach your child with his discipline. When we discipline in anger, we are teaching our children to act in anger, too. When we discipline in a manner that is physical, we are not teaching our children to be respectful to others. I think the OP should sit down with her dh when they are no longer upset and formulate a plan for disciplining their child that involves lessons that will teach the child to be a better person. They also need a plan of how to act towards her when they are really upset with her. It is ok to tell the child "I am really upset now and will talk to you in a minute" and take some time to calm down.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
I don't think she was saying it's the child's job to forgive. I think she was saying it's the parent's job to apologize. And it is. He absolutely should apologize. Of course, that would require him understanding that he did something wrong.

The more I'm thinking about this, the more I agree therapy is an excellent idea.

For those of you saying "I'd throw him out," you might want to head over to the Single Parenting forum and see how that works out for the child. Throwing the other parent out of the house doesn't mean throwing him/her out of your child's life. In fact, it usually means having to hand your child over to that person who now has access to your child without your watchful eye.

I understood what she meant about apologizing, but I must not have worded my post clearly.

As far as single parenting - I, personally, didn't say I would divorce my husband immediately if he abused our kids, but I would definitely throw him out unless and until he proved he had done the necessary work to establish that he knew what he did was wrong and had changed his approach to parenting. There is no compromise on abuse. If he doesn't change/doesn't get it, yes, I would divorce him. Luckily, I didn't marry a man who feels child abuse is acceptable.

I can't imagine telling a woman to stick it out with an abusive man, because everyone makes mistakes and being on her own will present its own set of problems - why does a child deserve to be sacrificed to the altar of parents assuaging their guilt by calling abuse (and shoving soap in a child's mouth IS ABUSE) "mistakes?" I can't tell you the number of men I have encountered who call their domestic violence incidents "mistakes" brought on by stress. I don't buy that a child has to live through a "parental learning stage" that involves having soap shoved in her mouth by a father who then has the gall to get indignant about what he did.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
As far as single parenting - I, personally, didn't say I would divorce my husband immediately if he abused our kids, but I would definitely throw him out unless and until he proved he had done the necessary work to establish that he knew what he did was wrong and had changed his approach to parenting. There is no compromise on abuse. If he doesn't change/doesn't get it, yes, I would divorce him.

And what would you do once your threw him out and he demanded to have his kids - now without you around because he's living elsewhere? You don't have to divorce to be in that situation.

My point is that while it's a valid response to want to boot the person out of your house, you cannot boot him out of your child's life. All you are doing is putting your child in a position where they no longer have you in the same house as protector.

Quote:

I can't imagine telling a woman to stick it out with an abusive man, because everyone makes mistakes and being on her own will present its own set of problems - why does a child deserve to be sacrificed to the altar of parents assuaging their guilt by calling abuse (and shoving soap in a child's mouth IS ABUSE) "mistakes?" I can't tell you the number of men I have encountered who call their domestic violence incidents "mistakes" brought on by stress. I don't buy that a child has to live through a "parental learning stage" that involves having soap shoved in her mouth by a father who then has the gall to get indignant about what he did.
I don't think anyone would advocate for a woman staying with an abusive man just because staying together is easier - I would hope not, anyway. However, it appears that this is one incident and that there are other courses of action that may not yet have been tried (the OP hasn't said whether or not they've been to therapy, I don't think). The truth is that people do make mistakes - sometimes big ones that hurt other people. It's awful and it needs to be addressed quickly and seriously. It's also human nature, though, to get indignant about those stupid mistakes, particularly if you're feeling guilty about what you did. That may be what's going on here. This may be a man who knows he screwed up but can't admit it yet because he's feeling attacked. Or it may not.

I would never advocate for a woman to stay with a man who was an abuser. But one incident of punishment that was commonly accepted as recently as this man's childhood does not an "abuser" make. The act is abusive. When I hit my child on the leg, that act was abusive. But I am not an abuser.

My long and rambly point is this: when looking at situations like these, it's important to consider the realities of choices. The reality is that, unless this man is abusing the child on a regular basis, kicking him out does not get him away from the child. That's fantasy speak. As soon as he's out, the mother loses any power she may have to steer his behavior in a more favorable direction. She gets to hand the child over with a knot in her stomach and hope for the best. If this is a man who screwed up and, after some cooling, is capable of understanding that and working to change his behavior, then responding with threats will do nothing but enflame the situation. It becomes him against her rather than them working toward a common goal. And doesn't that go against GD anyway? If we're leading by example, then how does that fit?


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
And what would you do once your threw him out and he demanded to have his kids - now without you around because he's living elsewhere? You don't have to divorce to be in that situation.

My point is that while it's a valid response to want to boot the person out of your house, you cannot boot him out of your child's life. All you are doing is putting your child in a position where they no longer have you in the same house as protector.

I don't think anyone would advocate for a woman staying with an abusive man just because staying together is easier - I would hope not, anyway. However, it appears that this is one incident and that there are other courses of action that may not yet have been tried (the OP hasn't said whether or not they've been to therapy, I don't think). The truth is that people do make mistakes - sometimes big ones that hurt other people. It's awful and it needs to be addressed quickly and seriously. It's also human nature, though, to get indignant about those stupid mistakes, particularly if you're feeling guilty about what you did. That may be what's going on here. This may be a man who knows he screwed up but can't admit it yet because he's feeling attacked. Or it may not.

I would never advocate for a woman to stay with a man who was an abuser. But one incident of punishment that was commonly accepted as recently as this man's childhood does not an "abuser" make. The act is abusive. When I hit my child on the leg, that act was abusive. But I am not an abuser.

My long and rambly point is this: when looking at situations like these, it's important to consider the realities of choices. The reality is that, unless this man is abusing the child on a regular basis, kicking him out does not get him away from the child. That's fantasy speak. As soon as he's out, the mother loses any power she may have to steer his behavior in a more favorable direction. She gets to hand the child over with a knot in her stomach and hope for the best. If this is a man who screwed up and, after some cooling, is capable of understanding that and working to change his behavior, then responding with threats will do nothing but enflame the situation. It becomes him against her rather than them working toward a common goal. And doesn't that go against GD anyway? If we're leading by example, then how does that fit?

You're making good points - I disagree with some of them, but I want to make sure to bring my attitude down several notches, since I don't mean to sound as snotty as I'm coming off. Anyway, I see what you're saying, I just feel differently about how to handle a situation such as this, which I see as an indicator of a much more serious problem.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
It's not the child's job to forgive the parent. It's the parent's job to refrain from abusing the child.

I understand when people talk about making mistakes - but where do you draw the line between mistake and abuse? And how many "mistakes" does a child just have to "live through," exactly?









:

And, again, I would do EVERYTHING in my power to help DH see he was WRONG, while not leaving them alone. If he FLAT OUT refused to stop he would have to go. Childhood cannot be recaptured & I'll be DAMNED if mine will live in fear of their father.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Excellent points, Dragonfly!

And in the case of spousal abuse, I would also recommend counseling or emergency mediator intervention before dissolving the marriage--especially if children are involved!


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
You're making good points - I disagree with some of them, but I want to make sure to bring my attitude down several notches, since I don't mean to sound as snotty as I'm coming off. Anyway, I see what you're saying, I just feel differently about how to handle a situation such as this, which I see as an indicator of a much more serious problem.

Thanks. I took your tone as passionate and concerned, not snotty.







I hope I'm not coming across as snotty either. There's not enough caffeine in my system yet and I'm finding it hard to make a point without too many words.









Just to be perfectly clear, I do believe that, at some point, a "my way or the highway" discussion is a legitimate and even necessary path to take. As an example, my son has a good dad. He's not abusive but he's also not much of a GDer in that he doesn't speak respectfully to DS. Whenever he gets into that mode, I find myself feeling very thankful that DS has our home, where he spends most of his time, as a haven from that. I do think that children need and deserve to have a place that is safe and as free as humanly possible from maltreatment. If they can only get that with separated parents, then so be it.


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## Imogen (Jul 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dulce de leche* 
Forcing a child to ingest soap can be life-threatening if the child reacts to any ingredients, and it is quite possible that she will be somewhat sick just from the taste. It is abusive, dangerous and there should be no compromise on this particular issue.









:


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StayAtHomeMama21* 
Are you kidding me? PUH-LEEZE she spit at him. She needs to learn you don't spit at anyone, most importantly the people that gave you the gift of life.

Granted, no I wouldn't have used soap, this is hardly child abuse.

Have you ever had your mouth "washed out with soap"?

I have, and I remember it more vividly than any other childhood "discipline" I received. It was certainly abusive behavior.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Oh, and to be sure - SOAPING SOMEONE'S MOUTH is MORE unacceptable than spitting! I'd rather be spit on!


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## Swirly (May 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama* 
Of course spitting is not acceptable StayAtHome. But bullying, humiliating and potentially harming a child's health are much MORE unacceptable in my view. After all, the child is still learning acceptable behavior. An adult should know better than to bully a vulnerable person like this. There are many ways to teach and guide a child without resorting to degradation and violation of the child's body.

OP, I would have a serious heart-to-heart with DH and involve a counselor if need be. If you cannot agree on a resolution, personally, I would not leave my child in the care of someone who would resort to methods like this. Best wishes.

exactly


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## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StayAtHomeMama21* 
Are you kidding me? PUH-LEEZE she spit at him. She needs to learn you don't spit at anyone, most importantly the people that gave you the gift of life.

Granted, no I wouldn't have used soap, this is hardly child abuse.

Actually, it IS abusive.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama* 
Of course spitting is not acceptable StayAtHome. But bullying, humiliating and potentially harming a child's health are much MORE unacceptable in my view. After all, the child is still learning acceptable behavior. An adult should know better than to bully a vulnerable person like this. There are many ways to teach and guide a child without resorting to degradation and violation of the child's body.

OP, I would have a serious heart-to-heart with DH and involve a counselor if need be. If you cannot agree on a resolution, personally, I would not leave my child in the care of someone who would resort to methods like this. Best wishes.









:









Poor kid.


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## Hesperia (Sep 3, 2007)

So many great answers, but I couldn't read through it all, I was getting too upset.

I keep thinking of this awesome bib, it says "SPIT HAPPENS" in bold colours. It happens. Children don't yet understand how harsh it is to spit in someones face, they haven't seen movies, or had it happen to them. Like the first time a child pees on the floor on purpose, you get annoyed, explain, have a huge hug, and they wont do it again (hopefully), but if you yelled at them, forced them to clean it while crying (or something else horrible like this) they might continue out of fear, anger, confusion, etc.

Spit happens. It's okay to be mad, but putting a child in harms way over something that could be used for leaning is scary. I just think in heated moments like this while the DH is holding his DD down to force it into her mouth, maybe sitting on the toilet, she could wiggle and hit her head or something.







Not that the soap isn't bad enough, because trust me i KNOW it is, but if he is that mad, he could lose control.

Okay.

If this was my DP, I would have him put DD to sleep (if this works in your family), make sure they got lots of time together in the bath, playing, reading etc before bed (I'd be watching the WHOLE thing), have loads of snuggles and let the appologies come out naturally. When DC was alseep, I'd have a huge talk about what happened prior to the spitting that made her lash out, and how he could have handled it, reminding him, no one is perfect, and everyone makes mistake, but we CHOOSE which mistake we make.

If he has a history of violent bouts (has he ever lost it on you??) I'd get him to agree to seeing a family therapist, or on his own, depeding on his past.

I would also mention, that walking away is a MUCH safer way to handle the situation, calm down for a minute. This is a very 'real' concequence for a child too, they don't like it, they don't get a reaction, they will probably be upset and get that spitting isn't okay without words and abuse.

Okay, I'm very upset. I hope that came out alright. Hugs to everyone.

And, soaping a childs mouth is very very much child abuse.







:


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## tashaharney (Feb 19, 2007)

why would you use soap in the mouth as a punishment for spitting? it just makes you need to spit more, because you can't swallow that stuff.

sounds like punishing hitting by hitting, or yelling at your kid to stop yelling.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tashaharney* 
sounds like punishing hitting by hitting, or yelling at your kid to stop yelling.









Excellent point!


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## donttrustthesystem (Jul 26, 2007)

I'm thinking if it were me I'd go for some couple's therapy but make sure the therapist was good...we just tried a therapist and he totally did not get cosleeping and thought I had excessive anxiety because I "couldn't let go" and put her in a crib. (dd is 12 months)

what I'm saying is that not all therapists are good but it could help your husband get to the bottom of his issues if you could find a good one. Ormaybe would he read Unconditional Parenting or is he unwilling to do that?

If it were me I would protect her by not leaving her with him but honestly I also agree with the person who said she would leave him. That's just my threshold for what I'm willing to tolerate.

I do feel like that kind of thing is permanently damaging to the childs growing psyche. Also, I've been there (as a kid)


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## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StayAtHomeMama21* 
Are you kidding me? PUH-LEEZE she spit at him. She needs to learn you don't spit at anyone, most importantly the people that gave you the gift of life.

Granted, no I wouldn't have used soap, this is hardly child abuse.

Gosh! You are absolutely right! Since I gave life to my daughter, I have the absolute right to make sure she respects me at all times, and if that means I gotta crack the belt or get the soap, by golly I will! Cuz I gave her the gift of life!


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

...and on the flip side...

Why GIVE the gift of life and then abuse said life?

Just sayin.'


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

that


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## gargirl (Dec 30, 2006)

For what its worth; to the mamas that feel washing out a child's mouth with soap is in some way or any way ok; think about how hard YOU would fight if someone tried to do that very thing to you.

How would it feel? To have that control over your body, your mouth taken away by force? To have something no one in their right mind would ever want forced beteen their jaws forced between yours... just because someone bigger than you wanted to "teach you something?" If you would not do it to your spouse, your friend or your employer... REALLY think about whether it is TRULY right to do to your helpless and dependent child.

Reading this thread, seeing how many mamas reject this abuse for what it is, is healing for me in its small way. The hurting little girl in me may never be truly whole, but she smiles when I read about mamas who would never treat their babies the way I (and she) was treated. Thank you so much for your words and your stand.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* 
I've been immersed in and practicing GD since my son was first born. My son spit in my face once when he was about 3. I smacked him on the leg. Hard. It was so awful I can hardly stand to think about it. It's the one time in his 7 years that I've hit him (or even come close to hitting him). I say this only to point out that spitting in someone's face is such a personal affront that it can drive even GD people to lash out with pure, gut reaction. .

I've known other very gentle parents who have had similar gut reactions. One time because a child bit his mom's finger right on the knuckle and drew blood (ouch). She lashed out and hit him before she knew what she was doing. Of course she felt terrible and she never hit him again.

But there's a huge difference between lashing out in a gut reaction and doing something abusive


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## cuddleluvinma (Jun 6, 2006)

It is abusive.

I still suggest counseling. I do agree, though, that the wrong counselor could just make things worse. Isn't there a way to interview a counselor to see what beliefs they have before seeing them? I would think so.

...and shouldn't you be obligated to teach the best things to this life that you have created? Wouldn't you feel it is your responsibility to teach that child (by example) to be loving, kind, respectful, etc.?







:


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## Datura (Mar 18, 2005)

Any update on how the post-incident discussion went? How are you holding out, OP? How is your kidnik? Your DH?


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## Mom2Joseph (May 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StayAtHomeMama21* 
Are you kidding me? PUH-LEEZE she spit at him. She needs to learn you don't spit at anyone, most importantly the people that gave you the gift of life.

Granted, no I wouldn't have used soap, this is hardly child abuse.

I haven't even read the rest of the responses - but HELL YES THIS IS ABUSE IN MY BOOK.

can't even tell you what I would do....

Let's just say this, it wouldn't happen twice, and if it did he wouldn't be left alone with our kids again.


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

Oh Mama, I'm so sorry. I can't honestly say what I would do .. probably freak out and never leave my child alone with him again. That's just awful.









I'd find it hard to love/be with someone who is able to harm our child like that. Sure, spitting is wrong and she needs to learn that .. but SOAP? That's abuse. Plain and simple. Whoever said earlier in this thread it's not abusive is hanging out in the WRONG place. And I could not disagree any more, it IS abusive.

OP, I would sit down and have a heart to hear with your DH. He does not have to do things exactly like you do, it's ok to parent differently or with your own style .. but the line needs to be drawn at how she is treated. What will he do next time she spits? Or if she repeats a cuss word? He needs tools and skills to deal with her, and also obviously needs some clear boundries drawn for what is abusive.

I wish you the very best.


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## leafylady (Nov 19, 2001)

That your husband called to tell you and presumably to pick a fight about the discipline is also disturbing. It might be useful for the two of you to take a parenting class together. Most parenting classes run by family resources are not going to recommend spanking and certainly not soap-in-the-mouth.

Explain to your husband that if you two take a parenting class together, it will help you to agree on a consistent discipline method. Hopefully he'll learn more constructive strategies as well.


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## BunnySlippers (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cal* 
I'm at work right now and called DH-he told me he just washed out 3year old dd's mouth with soap because she spit at him-she was happy all day-I'm not sure what happened to make her do that-I hung up on DH because he started ranting and raving about me alaways trying to get him to parent differently-I think this manner of disciplining is so wrong !!I have one more hour to go here at work -and I'm so upset!!What would you do???

(I have not read past page one yet)

In Ontario putting soap in a childs mouth IS abuse, against the law kind of abuse.
I would get him to call poison control and seriously re-think my relationship to him.

Spitting is not a big deal, little kids do stuff like that. In my house spitters are given the choice of spitting in the toilet, garbage or outside. No big deal.


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## leafylady (Nov 19, 2001)

My additional thought is that at this point, he wants to argue. By going to a parenting class, you are letting a more objective individual guide you, which might eliminate some of the fighting between you two.


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## cal (Oct 28, 2004)

thanks everyone.
We have talked
but not as much as I would have liked because of Christmas and relatives-but I am off of work and school and home for the next two weeks







- so we have made a promise to set aside some time REALLY talk ( I am also gathering a booklist together of parenting books he must read).
I am reluctant to seek counseling because honestly I don't know any that aren't still in the freud dark ages about parenting around here!!
DH is very remorseful and has told me stories of this being done to him as well as other horrible"punishments" he thinks he lost sense of himself and resorted to what he knew because of how he was raised...(not that this is an excuse but we did need to recognize where this was coming from-and I know the cycle can be broken because I too was raised that way







)
My first 2 children (now 16 and 14)(from a different father) were raised *totally* with gentle discipline- so this happening to my youngest was a huge shock to me-


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cal* 
DH is very remorseful and has told me stories of this being done to him as well as other horrible"punishments" he thinks he lost sense of himself and resorted to what he knew because of how he was raised...(not that this is an excuse but we did need to recognize where this was coming from-and I know the cycle can be broken because I too was raised that way







)

It sounds like things are starting to look up. That's a good sign.

Cal, one thing that helped me during the toddler years was making a cheat sheet. Just a few general ideas on a piece of paper that worked consistently and respectfully. Anytime I got overwhelmed, I could look at the sheet and find something better to do.

Maybe something like that would work for your dh?


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## auntiehallie (Apr 25, 2005)

oh cal, i'm so sorry. i would have been furious if it were me! and calling you at work, where you are helpless to do anything... ohhh... what a horrible day.

what would i do, you asked. welll...

i sympathize with the folks who say, 'i'd divorce him - that would be the end' because it is a truly huge violation. but i can't say it's the only path, because i can forgive someone for almost anything - once.

once.

and because we are nearly all of us damaged goods with our own shit to work through, and his showing remorse is a good sign.

i think, when you do have time to talk with him - and this is just what i would do - is frame the situation again, with him on the outside: how would he feel if he saw someone *else* doing that to his kid.

or, someone doing that to *you*. or how would he want *you* to react, if you saw someone doing such a thing to *him*. because i hope he'd want you to come at him with all guns blazing. if my sweetie let someone do anything like that to me, or hell, even to the cat - and said, well - that's what you get for spitting on someone! i. would. explode. and i really don't think his sympathy-generator is that broken, or you wouldn't have married him in the first place. he lost it. big and far and wide. there's no way you could excuse such behavior looking at it as a spectator.

so when you get that degree of separation, it's clear that this shouldn't happen. it brings the wounded child out and puts him in a place where he can see he has a road to choose here: the one his dad (or whoever) trod before him, and the one that instead improves upon what he was raised with.

rise above.

i have hope that you and he can work this out between you as a parenting issue. he needs to apologize, sincerely, to his daughter. and explain (in age-appropriate terms) that he's learning to be a better dad than he had, that he was hurt like that too as a kid (because it's true, and because kids have enormous capacity for compassion when approached honestly, even following abuse), that he made a huge mistake, and he would like her forgiveness, and that he is really very sorry. which he had better be.

but you can - if you can rise above, so can he. that's why you are together, is to improve on what was and to help each other become the people and parents you aspire to be. make it happen.

and i'm so sorry. my heart aches for you.


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## mrsdocmartin (Nov 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StayAtHomeMama21* 
Are you kidding me? PUH-LEEZE she spit at him. She needs to learn you don't spit at anyone, most importantly the people that gave you the gift of life.

Granted, no I wouldn't have used soap, this is hardly child abuse.

Sorry, but to me it is most definitely abusive and I would be sure my H knew I'd leave with my son if he ever considered doing anything of the sort again.


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## EvansMomma (Mar 7, 2006)

This wouldn't fly in our house.
I'd be willing to sit and talk together and work through it, find some better alternatives - on the condition that he apologized to our child for what he did. I would work towards a solution - but I would only do that once. If the same sort of thing happened again, he'd be gone.

And where I live, soap in the mouth is abusive. I wouldn't hesitate to contest his rights to visitation until he's proven that he's making steps to improving himself.


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## Breeder (May 28, 2006)

Cal- I suggest getting him a copy of 'Heaven on Earth: A Handbook for Parents of Young Children'. It's a quick read and has a lot of info on the development of children. One thing that has always made GD easy for me is knowing how doing something like your DH did would negatively impact my child's development.

I'm so sorry you had to deal with this.

I'm glad to hear your H is feeling remorse for what he did. It's the first small step to making things better for your family.


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