# my children/my parenting are annoying to others



## Hootandflutter (Feb 25, 2007)

I decide when my kids are trampling on my own needs and wants, and I tell them, "That bothers me because of ____ or that is unsafe/unethical because of ____ ; so stop." I try to empower my friends to do that too, and they're behind me, in theory.

The problem I'm running into is that, when the kids don't stop, like an adult would, the friends are annoyed. They don't have that tolerance that mothers get from the evolutionary thrust to ensure the survival of your genetic material.

Tonight one of my friends told me that they feel bad for my kids that they are not able to socialize appropriately and get the benefits of that, like being able to enjoy being enjoyed, or be invited to do special things with grown-up friends. Another adult friend told me she just is dumbfounded by my kids and has no idea what to do, and is afraid she'll screw up and do the wrong things her parents did. Last night one of my childless friends confessed to me that they feel guilty and flawed because they can't tolerate my kids.

Tonight's examples were a two-year-old getting too close and too bouncy to drinks which might be spilled, a five-year-old calling, "HELP!" when he became too angry to deal with his brother, a seven-year-old repeatedly forgetting not to run through the room where we were chopping up sushi with sharp knives in tight quarters, and a ten-year-old lingering restlessly with his coat on, obviously impatiently waiting to leave our social engagement, while we were all trying to relax and enjoy each other. Yeah, there's four, all boys, and the noise level bugs the friends too.

I run in a hippified circle. The people who I count as my friends and who make up my local network are thoughtful and compassionate individuals. They're open to consensus process among adults.

It bothers me that my friends are visibly frustrated during normal, unavoidable kid stuff. I feel defensive. I don't want to embarrass my kids by calling them out in front of my friends or make my kids defensive by ganging up against them with my friends. Then, of course, I also feel my friends are mostly right -- this behavior is annoying or dangerous, and my kids do miss out on opportunities for friendships and activities by not being traditionally "good" (passive, apathetic) kids. I value my local network and the many benefits it brings me, and there is no other one; these are the only hippies here.

Maybe I'm just looking for a been there or a virtual hug. How do you guys talk to your friends about parenting? How do you help your friends put up with it, or help your kids understand how annoying they're being to others and the downsides to that without reducing the value of friendship to a tit for tat mathematical equation?


----------



## MilkTrance (Jul 21, 2007)

The behaviour is annoying and dangerous, but I have many friends with children around those ages, and it's nothing new or different. I have seen many different parenting styles and the kids are all pretty much... kids! They're loud, they get tired and irritated easily, they can't control their emotions. Do your friends have children? I admit I didn't fully understand how it all worked until I had my own baby.


----------



## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

I think it's really hard for people without kids to understand. point. If I think about what I thought of other people's kids before I had a kid, I cringe. I simply had no way of knowing what "normal" kid behavior was like.

I've got two groups of friends -- friends with kids and friends without kids. I try to do things without my DS along with my kidless friends. He's actually a "good" kid generally (and, no, that doesn't mean apathetic or passive!) and they do enjoy his company, but don't get that he gets bored or whiney or tired. So I try to focus on my friends with kids when I'm with DS. Of course, all this is predicated on the ability to do stuff without your kids in tow (either because you have care for them or because you are ok with being away from them).

Otherwise, I think you need to gently tell your friends that, while you appreciate their comments and feelings, there is no way they can understand unless they have their own kids and/or spend a lot more time around kids in general.

One last thing, though. I don't think it really works to put the onus on correcting your kids on your friends. Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying about empowering your friends when your kids are trampling on their needs or wants, but correcting someone else's kid is always fraught with misunderstandings and defensiveness. I really think it is *your* job to redirect or correct your kids if they are trampling on your friends' needs and wants.


----------



## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

FWIW . . . IMHE . . . I am mostly uncomfortable taking all 4 of my kids anywhere other than playdates with other large families of 4 or more. Like I feel totally "normal" at get-togethers with my fellow triplet mom playgroup families. But often feel conspicuous in the company of the standard 2 kid family - and 1 kid family, well, that makes me feel REALLY conspicious - b/c generally they feel they are parents and know what that means . . .but have NO CONCEPT of how easy 1-kid generally is (me included in this scenario by the way) . . . and childless friends . . . . fuggetaboutit . . . .;

so - in summary - it may not be your kids behavior per se . . . .put the quantity of children involved . .. .


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Since your friends are asking, I'd help them understand. Offer to loan them your favorite parenting books....offer on-line links to articles that have helped you understand.

Have a viewing of the Alfie Kohn dvd with popcorn at your house.

Let them know you'd be open to them planning more kid-friendly events than sushi making in tight quarters. Let the know that sometimes just inviting the kids to be involved solves the problem.


----------



## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

I so understand this. I am at a point where, to avoid there being issues, to avoid my children's sleep being disrupted, we basically do very, very few invites, and through most of those, I screen a DVD for my kids to watch. I know this is depriving me of adult interaction that I really would need for the sake of my sanity because I am alone for most of the working week, and it is also depriving me of a safety net when I need someone to be there for the kids, and it is depriving the kids of the company of other adults. But to most people, my kids are a nuisance, and I have yet to find a solution to this. I will follow the discussion and look forward input from wise mamas on this forum. And no, my childless friends would not be up for a Alfie Kohn video, at all. They really think that we should be getting advice, not giving any, because they did not behave like that as kids, and they think there is something we are missing if our kids behave that way, so any parenting theory that I support (based on the results I get) simply is of no interest whatsoever.


----------



## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hootandflutter* 
Then, of course, I also feel my friends are mostly right -- this behavior is annoying or dangerous, and my kids do miss out on opportunities for friendships and activities by not being traditionally "good" (passive, apathetic) kids.

First--hugs to you. I think everyone's kids can be pretty annoying, so you're not alone. You sound like a good mom who thinks about her actions, and her kid's actions as well. Lots of people would just blow all that feedback off because they didn't like it.

That said, since you do agree with your friends in part, I will make some recommendations. Do you think that as your children have grown you have gotten out of the the habit of redirecting? When kids are babies, it's common to pack a few toys and distractions when you're socializing--I think kids need that thru their teen years to be honest. I would rather have a teen or tween curled up with a book or some kind of game (maybe passive, but at least they are not bored and annoyed) than ruin a gathering with their boredom and annoyance at being stuck there.

I think all the behaviors that you described are totally normal, and I agree with pp that your friends might feel awkward being brought into the equation. Perhaps if you present yourself as handling and redirecting your childrens behavior, your friends will feel more comfortable.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I always worry bringing my child around childless friends. I was 35 when my daughter was born so I had a lot of childless years and I truly didn't get it. I remember very clearly being annoyed by really normal child behaviors. Things like kids not being really quiet all the time.

Your friends are normal and your kids are normal. They'll have trouble understanding your kids until/unless they have kids themselves. Then, like me, they'll at some point say, "I can't believe I thought two-year-olds should be able to sit still!"

And two-year-olds bounce no matter how they're parented. Five-year-olds occasionally get too loud no matter how they're parented. Seven-year-olds get rambunctious no matter how they're parented. And 10-year-olds get bored no matter how they're parented. Your parenting isn't the issue here.


----------



## Slabobbin (Jan 29, 2004)

I disagree with some of the responses here. First let me say that I am not a "spare the rod" type of parent. And my kids are FAR from perfect little sheep. However, a child running in the house (and especially after being told not to and especially at seven years old) would annoy the snot out of me. It would be unacceptable to me. A ten year old being that rude would also be unacceptable to me. So I don't think that all of these issues can be chalked up to "They don't have kids so they don't understand". I _have_ children and I would still be very annoyed if my friend's children behaved this way.

And while this isn't true in all cases (because I am usually on the fringe instead of in the mainstream so I usually am the one going against the flow) but if enough people tell me the same thing, sometimes it means that I may need to take a step back and look at what they are saying. If that many people, people whom I assume care about you, are telling you the same thing about your children, it may be a good idea to stop and analyze what they are saying to see if they have a point.


----------



## fek&fuzz (Jun 19, 2005)

It is not your friends' job to parent your children. And having your friends watch a parenting video is not going to make them find annoying behavior less annoying. This might be one of those cases where Gentle Discipline has been misconstrued into no discipline, and is causing your kids to be social outcasts. Especially since you consider "good" behavior to be a negative (calling it passive and apathetic.) I have been around "good" kids and they are neither passive nor apathetic - they are interesting, fun, creative, funny, active, responsive to cues from others, and wanting to engage in cooperative relationships with others, not just do what they want to do.

If you are having a get together with friends and your 2 year old is bouncing around near their drinks, you need to redirect your child. My niece had learned by age 2 that you don't bounce around drinks.

And it is very unsettling to have people running through a room repeatedly, sharp knives or not.

Did you do anything when these situations came up? If your explanation of why running is unsafe fell on deaf ears did you try a shorter message like "Red light" (this works with my niece, and a 7 year old might be so baffled by it that he stops) or "Halt" or "Hey go outside please".

What was the focus of the get together? Was it "Girl's night" with your kids, or was it "Family Night"? It sounds like the venue might not have been that fun for your 10 year old, and like the 7 yo was getting restless, too. Maybe they would like to stay home next time.

It sounds like your friends have no children, and you may find that they stop inviting you to get togethers with your children, or that they stop inviting you at all if asking you to not bring your children would cause problems.


----------



## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Slabobbin* 
I disagree with some of the responses here. First let me say that I am not a "spare the rod" type of parent. And my kids are FAR from perfect little sheep. However, a child running in the house (and especially after being told not to and especially at seven years old) would annoy the snot out of me. It would be unacceptable to me. A ten year old being that rude would also be unacceptable to me. So I don't think that all of these issues can be chalked up to "They don't have kids so they don't understand". I _have_ children and I would still be very annoyed if my friend's children behaved this way.

And while this isn't true in all cases (because I am usually on the fringe instead of in the mainstream so I usually am the one going against the flow) but if enough people tell me the same thing, sometimes it means that I may need to take a step back and look at what they are saying. If that many people, people whom I assume care about you, are telling you the same thing about your children, it may be a good idea to stop and analyze what they are saying to see if they have a point.

I agree. I think that if a child is told by their parent not to do something, especially something that is dangerous and annoying to others, and they continue to do it then that is the time to take some sort of action. Kids will be kids, yes, but at some point, they do have to learn to listen to authority. I think that your friends do need to be a bit more patient though - sometimes learning to listen takes time.

Perhaps if you invite them to YOUR house instead of venturing to theirs they would be a little more relaxed. It is not their concern then if something spills, or if something happens. Plus I think that kids tend to get restless when visiting anyhow. I hope that they can be a little more understanding in the future.


----------



## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Slabobbin* 
I disagree with some of the responses here. First let me say that I am not a "spare the rod" type of parent. And my kids are FAR from perfect little sheep. However, a child running in the house (and especially after being told not to and especially at seven years old) would annoy the snot out of me. It would be unacceptable to me. A ten year old being that rude would also be unacceptable to me. So I don't think that all of these issues can be chalked up to "They don't have kids so they don't understand". I _have_ children and I would still be very annoyed if my friend's children behaved this way.

And while this isn't true in all cases (because I am usually on the fringe instead of in the mainstream so I usually am the one going against the flow) but if enough people tell me the same thing, sometimes it means that I may need to take a step back and look at what they are saying. If that many people, people whom I assume care about you, are telling you the same thing about your children, it may be a good idea to stop and analyze what they are saying to see if they have a point.

Agree 100%


----------



## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Hugs!

I think for me the critical piece of information in your post was that you are finding some of the same issues. That makes it worth acting on.

Is there a way to roleplay with your kids at home (esp. the older three) around what would help you/them/your friends around these issues? Can you talk to your kids in a gentle way about what your friends have observed and about your concerns around their behaviour?

I personally believe (ha ha, since my son is only 2.5) that one of the big benefits of leaning towards the CL end of the spectrum is that I get to share reality with my kid(s). Reality in this case being that you and your friends have a legitimate concern.

I am not experienced from a parenting end exactly but there was a time I took my niece & 2 nephews places without their parents, and we had a code word that we set up in advance that meant "hey, your behaviour is not ok right now." (at 5, 8, and 9, they were old enough to figure out what behaviour it was on their own, which also spared me the rule setting role). Of course being the "fun aunt" it was a bit easier to establish a rule like that, but I wonder if your kids would agree to something similar.


----------



## plantmama (Jun 24, 2005)

Dh and I had kids right after college so we have lots of childless friends.
And they come and spend weekends with us too!
I think bringing 4 children over a childless person's house should be avoided at all costs! I would do outdoor things together. Most adults love getting to do "kid things" like sledding, playing lawn games and just floating on a giant water float even if a kid is bouncing it








I've also found that many of our friends don't have the slightest idea how to interact with someone in an age appropriate way because they just don't know what to expect from someone of a particular age, so they need guidance.
Like I tell my 4 y/o, show so and so your crayons or what's that toy for to encourage interaction that will go somewhere and be fun for both.
My kids are not "well behaved" and I am occasionally hard pressed to deal with them in public, but they are both extremely enjoyable to be around and I get this comment a lot. I have to support them in forming positive relationships with others and I do take them away (for the most part) when they are making people uncomfortable. You can perhaps quietly go up to and talk to your children instead of publicly embarrassing them (I agree this is something I would feel bad doing too).
Another thing I've found (and this is an extremely generalized judgement) but hippies can be very overly sensitive to their surroundings and can get caught up and distracted by small events.


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Slabobbin* 
I disagree with some of the responses here. First let me say that I am not a "spare the rod" type of parent. And my kids are FAR from perfect little sheep. However, a child running in the house (and especially after being told not to and especially at seven years old) would annoy the snot out of me. It would be unacceptable to me. A ten year old being that rude would also be unacceptable to me. So I don't think that all of these issues can be chalked up to "They don't have kids so they don't understand". I _have_ children and I would still be very annoyed if my friend's children behaved this way.

And while this isn't true in all cases (because I am usually on the fringe instead of in the mainstream so I usually am the one going against the flow) but if enough people tell me the same thing, sometimes it means that I may need to take a step back and look at what they are saying. If that many people, people whom I assume care about you, are telling you the same thing about your children, it may be a good idea to stop and analyze what they are saying to see if they have a point.

I agree with this also.

While I do think the biggest issue is that there are four of them, I also would not have them over to my house. I would feel bad about inviting others over and not my friends and their kids, but I would rather not have a seven year old who is running through my house while I try to cook.

I think you and your friends are amazing for being so honest and open, and I wish I had friends who would say "your kids make me nuts" instead of just leaving me out of planned activities. (of course I only have one kid and she's perfect LOL)


----------



## dex_millie (Oct 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Slabobbin* 
I disagree with some of the responses here. First let me say that I am not a "spare the rod" type of parent. And my kids are FAR from perfect little sheep. However, a child running in the house (and especially after being told not to and especially at seven years old) would annoy the snot out of me. It would be unacceptable to me. A ten year old being that rude would also be unacceptable to me. So I don't think that all of these issues can be chalked up to "They don't have kids so they don't understand". I _have_ children and I would still be very annoyed if my friend's children behaved this way.

And while this isn't true in all cases (because I am usually on the fringe instead of in the mainstream so I usually am the one going against the flow) but if enough people tell me the same thing, sometimes it means that I may need to take a step back and look at what they are saying. If that many people, people whom I assume care about you, are telling you the same thing about your children, it may be a good idea to stop and analyze what they are saying to see if they have a point.









:


----------



## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hootandflutter* 

It bothers me that my friends are visibly frustrated during normal, unavoidable kid stuff. I feel defensive. I don't want to embarrass my kids by calling them out in front of my friends or make my kids defensive by ganging up against them with my friends. *Then, of course, I also feel my friends are mostly right -- this behavior is annoying or dangerous,* and my kids do miss out on opportunities for friendships and activities by not being traditionally "good" (passive, apathetic) kids. I value my local network and the many benefits it brings me, and there is no other one; these are the only hippies here.

Maybe I'm just looking for a been there or a virtual hug. How do you guys talk to your friends about parenting? *How do you help your friends put up with it*, or help your kids understand how annoying they're being to others and the downsides to that without reducing the value of friendship to a tit for tat mathematical equation?

I'm having trouble reconciling the two bolded thoughts. Mama, you know in your heart you should not be asking your friends to put up with bad behaviour from your kids! I know you value your friendships deeply, and your friends' theirs with you, and I know you want to be as respectful as possible to all parties.
However, kids can be told the limits (and have them enforced firmly) without needing to embarass them! Take the 7yo and turn him around. I had a child here once around age 5 who was a banshee. He decided to run through my kitchen while I was cooking with hot oil, and it ticked me off so much because firstly, I was stressed enough trying to make sure *I* didn't get hurt, I didn't need the added stress of watching for a heedless child. And second, his parents were so passive! "No, no, Johnny. That's hot." I believe that words really need to be reinforced by actions - a sign on the door, chairs blocking the way until it is safe, removing the child.
We use ASL a lot here. It's quick, private, and gets the message across. I can sign "wash" or "pay attention" with a slight hand movement, and the older kids appreciate not being called out.
When needed, taking them in the other room works well, too.

I don't believe "good" kids are passive and apathetic. I actually find that an insult, but more worryingly, a sign that you value the curbable antics over a friendship with adults. If 'good' is associated with something you don't want, then truly you are looking for an acceptance of the bad behavior and disrespect to your friends. I don't believe that, but I think if I were you I'd sit down and think about the issues and if they are tolerable _for you_. Then look to see if they are tolerable for your friends. If they are not, then the option is not trying to get your friends to accept it, but to drop your friendships in favor of more of a homelife with your kids. One thing I've noticed is that what is said is usually much lighter than what is thought. If these are the thoughts your friends are expressing, I would add a few degrees to their true nature to overcome natural politeness.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Why are people assuming she didn't respond to these behaviors? She didn't say she didn't respond, just that the kids did those things. Which are normal things for kids those ages to do. The running in the house is the only thing that seemed even slightly questionable, and even then, why assume she didn't tell the kid to stop running in the house? I'd assume she said that and the kid stopped unless she said it kept happening.

I do think the problem is taking kids to a place that isn't kid-friendly, and the answer might well be to get a babysitter. But I don't see any reason to assume these kids exhibited these behaviors repeatedly or that they didn't respond when told to stop. Well, a two year old would probably have to be physically redirected. And a 10-year-old is simply going to be bored listening to adult conversation. The answer to that is to bring something for the 10-year-old to do. It isn't any more rude for a 10-year-old to make it obvious that he wants to leave than it is to bring him somewhere boring and make him wait for ages listening to a conversation he isn't a part of.


----------



## IdahoMom (Nov 8, 2005)

Buy me a seat on the slabobbin train. I think your statement that "good" = passive/apathetic is very telling. Kids can (and should) be respectfully taught to behave appropriately and be considerate without squelching their spirit. Your job isn't to teach the world to tolerate them, but to teach them to successfully navigate the world.


----------



## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Why are people assuming she didn't respond to these behaviors? She didn't say she didn't respond, just that the kids did those things. Which are normal things for kids those ages to do. The running in the house is the only thing that seemed even slightly questionable, and even then, why assume she didn't tell the kid to stop running in the house? I'd assume she said that and the kid stopped unless she said it kept happening.

I do think the problem is taking kids to a place that isn't kid-friendly, and the answer might well be to get a babysitter. But I don't see any reason to assume these kids exhibited these behaviors repeatedly or that they didn't respond when told to stop. Well, a two year old would probably have to be physically redirected. And a 10-year-old is simply going to be bored listening to adult conversation. The answer to that is to bring something for the 10-year-old to do. It isn't any more rude for a 10-year-old to make it obvious that he wants to leave than it is to bring him somewhere boring and make him wait for ages listening to a conversation he isn't a part of.

You have a good point. I only assumed that it kept happening because in my mind it would take the continuation of it happening to annoy people. If it did stop happening immediately, well then the friends must not only NOT have children, but they perhaps have never even been around children before. Obviously a child might need redirection here and there.


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DariusMom* 
One last thing, though. I don't think it really works to put the onus on correcting your kids on your friends. Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying about empowering your friends when your kids are trampling on their needs or wants, but correcting someone else's kid is always fraught with misunderstandings and defensiveness. I really think it is *your* job to redirect or correct your kids if they are trampling on your friends' needs and wants.

Absolutely my thought. I have a friend that I babysit for, and she doesn't mind when I 'discipline' her kids (no punishment, it's usually explanations and offering alternatives). But I definitly prefer not to do it when she's around. That's for her to do!
If my ds is yelling loudly, and it's not bothering me, but is bothering someone else, I don't expect THEM to make my ds stop yelling. When they express that it's a problem for them, I deal with it.
Of course, I wouldn't be surprised or upset with my ds if he didn't stop right away, or if I had to go through a few different ideas to come up with an agreeable solution (and if they got huffy about it, sucks to be them). Or if he stopped yelling, then a few minutes later started again (presumably because he forgot). I wouldn't be upset, but I'd work harder on making it stop. I wouldn't trample my ds's rights, for the comfort of someone else, but I'd definitely respect my friend's rights too.

In the OP it sounds like it kept happening. I guess my thoughts would depend on what the op did to make the unacceptable behaviors stop (like, having the 2yo bounce further from the drinks- so, finding solutions).


----------



## Mpenny1001 (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdahoMom* 
I think your statement that "good" = passive/apathetic is very telling. Kids can (and should) be respectfully taught to behave appropriately and be considerate without squelching their spirit. Your job isn't to teach the world to tolerate them, but to teach them to successfully navigate the world.

That passive/apathetic comment really stood out to me as well. I know many many kids (and adults, lol!) that are really pleasant to be around and are not passive or apathetic. Why do you think those things are connected in your mind?


----------



## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mpenny1001* 
That passive/apathetic comment really stood out to me as well. I know many many kids (and adults, lol!) that are really pleasant to be around and are not passive or apathetic. Why do you think those things are connected in your mind?

I think that the problem is that the children are not able to behave in a social setting. Whether that's due to discipline or due to their temperaments, I don't know.

I would think that the 7 and 10 year old should certainly be on the path. I remember at that age I would take my older girls places where there were no other children and they could socialise quite well with adults, particularly adults who were open to children.

Maybe my children were just flukes but I don't believe they were particulary apathetic or passive. They talked to people and laughed and generally didn't run around inside other people's homes. There were moments of course, but generally we just took them along and they were just fine. The 10 year old would have been in that kitchen asking a zillion questions about sushi and the 7 year old would have played a game with someone.

My younger children are 4.5 and a little over 2. I can manage to get the 4 year old to socialise reasonably but the 2 year old has a ways to go. Of course she's only two.

I think if you are taking your children to an adult thing you have to take things to keep them occupied like board games and other toys.

My 11 year old nephew comes here a lot. When he gets ansty I put him to work helping in the kitchen etc. Or I set him up with a movie. It is boring here for him. I get that.

I think what you need to do is to work with the children and practice what is expected of them in the company of adults. The 7 and 10 year old are certainly old enough to learn. Being socially able is an advantage. When you are invited somewhere you have a responsibility to behave in a certain way. I think most 7 and 10 year olds can learn this while still maintaining their own personalities.

It sounds like your friends are being really honest with you without judgement which means you are very fortunate.


----------



## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I generally agree that your expectations of your older children seem to be a little low. Children of that age can, and should, be expected to behave appropriately in other's homes. And if it is bothering more than the 100-yr-old-aunt-who-hates-everything sort of person, then its not appropriate. Toddlers and preschoolers are different, but by school-age, they should be better able to cope.

And its definitely NOT your friend's job to redirect your children. That is solely the parent's job.

That said, given that you enjoy these people and want to spend time with them, I think you need to be a bit more proactive with your kids. If there are not other children for them to play with, then you need to take entertainment for them -- board game maybe? Deck of cards? If they are running, send them outside. Or give them jobs on the sushi teams -- they are old enough for that too.

Its sort of like on an airplane -- traveling, or visiting, with children, means being prepared for lots of situations and being proactive for everyone's comfort -- both kids and adults. Yes, it takes more work. That's part of parenting.


----------



## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

I don't think kids have right to be annoying to others or to run around and harm other people's stuff. I would start talking to your kids about what you expect from them. Yes, busy work does help as some previous poster said. Crayons or stickers can keep a child occupied for a half hour or so. Personally, when my kids were on a tear, I just took them home. Going out is a privilege.

Gentle discipline does not have to mean you are raising a pack of wild dogs.


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

allgirls said it better than I could have!


----------



## Limabean1975 (Jan 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hootandflutter* 

Tonight's examples were a two-year-old getting too close and too bouncy to drinks which might be spilled, a five-year-old calling, "HELP!" when he became too angry to deal with his brother, a seven-year-old repeatedly forgetting not to run through the room where we were chopping up sushi with sharp knives in tight quarters, and a ten-year-old lingering restlessly with his coat on, obviously impatiently waiting to leave our social engagement, while we were all trying to relax and enjoy each other. Yeah, there's four, all boys, and the noise level bugs the friends too









Gosh, I am sorry I don't have particular advice (I have not read the other responses, hopefully someone wise does have advice!), just empathy. Everything you describe sounds to me on the "well-behaved" side of normal! The 2 year old? That's what they do. You move the drinks. The 7? That's what they do! The 10 year old - just "lingering restlessly"???GOodness, I know adults who do that. The 5 year old? Calling for help instead of hitting or yelling at his brother? Amazing!
Really...your friends just don't seem to recognize what's normal and healthy in a child.


----------



## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think you should maybe try to do things with your friends without the kids there. They aren't really benefiting very much socially from being around adults who are annoyed by their behavior, they would probably be much happier spending time one on one with someone a lot funner who is focusing their attention on them and has appropriate expectations. I also don't think it is to much to ask that a seven year old remembers not to run in a room with knives, I ask this of my five year old, I also think you should have found something else for the two year old to do and asked the ten year old to find something else to do or at least to sit down. If your kids are getting on people's nerves and they are not enjoying themselves then it is time to leave so that people will continue to invite you over and you can continue to have friends. This would be different if your friends had kids but they don't and they won't understand how life is with kids and how normal it is for kids to behave this way until they do. This seperation from friends is one of the sad things that comes with having kids before your friends do.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Kids "don't have the right to be annoying to others"? Is that how good/bad behavior is defined? I prefer to use more objective standards than that. And, adults are frequently annoying to others. It certainly isn't fair to have higher expectations of children than adults.


----------



## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

I think that the OP is not "raising a pack of wild dogs". Nor was any of her kids running around with any knives, her 7 yo was running where other people were chopping stuff. Dangerous, yes, but then running with knives is different, really.
There are two issues that I can see:

the level of patience people have with kids is just about zero. The interest that people have in interacting with kids and talking to them, and playing with them is nil.
adults interactions rarely are planned at times that will be compatible with kids' bedtimes and often kids are not behaving bad, they simply should be in bed a long time ago already.
As a result of these two issues, kids get few interactions with adults, and will not master the skill of interacting with adults other than their parents.
Sad, because it makes for a lot of loneliness, especially in countries were kids are having fewer and fewer kids (my own country, Italy, is a case in point) Doubly sad, because it does not make it appealing for a non-parent to have kids, reducing the possible interactions further....


----------



## gsd1amommy (Apr 6, 2007)

I don't think anyone said she was raising a pack of wild dogs but I may have missed that if someone did say that. The OP herself said that these behaviors her children were displaying were annoying and dangerous and that she didn't want to be the one calling her kids out on them. She wants her friends to do it if they are uncomfortable. That is unfair to her kids and to her friends.
Really, how much bending is a host supposed to do to accommodate? Letting kids run around the kitchen where sharp knives are being used apparently within the reach or vicinity of said child...How much patience, interaction? Listening to a kid call for help over and over...Trying to engage a ten year old with his coat on who is just standing around waiting to be 'Done"...
All in all, I would have called it a night and taken them home and spend alot of time working on what you want from them in the future so that you may maintain the relationships that are important to you.


----------



## betsu63 (May 4, 2006)

I can only give perspective as someone who doesn't have kids, but does spend alot of time around lots of children. I think if someone is speaking up things must be quite unsettling. I enjoy being around these kids, but when they start to run inside they are reminded not to do that quickly. Parents bring things to keep the kids occupied or make sure they have lots of time to play outside and be kids and have fun.The kids are used to some limits being put on their behaviour, but no one is yelling or screaming at them. It's fun for all!


----------



## Mama Poot (Jun 12, 2006)

I couldn't stand other people's kids before I had kids of my own, and to a large extent I still can't stand other people's kids. Its biological. Try to be compassionate with your childless friends, and don't bog them down with all your facts and statistics-I don't think it will sink in very much.


----------



## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I see at least 3 issues here:
1. You'd like time with your friends without having to worry about your kids, or having them criticize you or your kids.

2. Your kids are behaving inappropriate _sometimes_, and age appropriately other times, and your friends might be lumping all those things into the same category.

3. Your friends don't recognize what you're doing as active discipline for your kids. Whether it's because you aren't stepping in and directing your kids when they need it, or whether your friends aren't recognizing your stepping in as such, I can't tell from your post.

One thing I didn't read in your post was what you're doing to direct your kids -- either to provide them with appropriate things to do or to redirect them to appropriate things when they're doing something that is bothering other people. So, what did you bring for your kids to play with at the party? What did you do with your two year old when he was bouncing too near the drinks? 2 year olds bounce. So, when he got bouncy, did you say "hey, if you want to bounce, let's go over here away from the drinks so everyone will be safe"?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hootandflutter* 
The problem I'm running into is that, when the kids don't stop, like an adult would, the friends are annoyed.

Here I would suggest a different approach. Instead of asking the kids the to stop, suggest that they do something different. Most ADULTS I know don't respond well to being asked to stop. It's much more effective to say "bounce over there" or "if you need to run, go run in the back yard."

And honestly, I too would be annoyed if I asked your kids to stop and they didn't. I would expect you to step in. That's your job. You don't have to step in and shame them, but you can explain why it's annoying and what they can do differently.

If your kids can't be redirected, then it's time for you to stop socializing and be with them. So for the 7 year old running through the kitchen, I would put down my knife, escort him to another room and suggest something else that he can do, and wait until he's engaged. If he does it again, then I would stop preparing sushi and be with him until the knives are put away.

For the 10 year old with his coat on because he wanted to go, I would probably joke with him about it "Hey bud, take your coat off and stay a while", then invite him to sit next to me, and explain quietly that it's rude to do this, and tell him how soon you will be leaving. You will probably have to leave sooner than you want to if he's at that point. This is completely age appropriate behavior, but he does need to be told that it's rude.

I think if your friends see you stepping in, they'll back off.

I also would recommend that you try to find time to be with your friends, especially those without kids, at a time when someone else can watch them. You can't really bring 4 kids to a party all by yourself and expect to be able to socialize. Most of what you'll be doing is kid management. Or if you have to bring the kids, bring an older teenager with to help keep them out of trouble so you can socialize.


----------



## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice* 
There are two issues that I can see:

the level of patience people have with kids is just about zero. The interest that people have in interacting with kids and talking to them, and playing with them is nil.
adults interactions rarely are planned at times that will be compatible with kids' bedtimes and often kids are not behaving bad, they simply should be in bed a long time ago already.
As a result of these two issues, kids get few interactions with adults, and will not master the skill of interacting with adults other than their parents.
Sad, because it makes for a lot of loneliness, especially in countries were kids are having fewer and fewer kids (my own country, Italy, is a case in point) Doubly sad, because it does not make it appealing for a non-parent to have kids, reducing the possible interactions further....

This is interesting.

I am a firm believer that children learn how to socialize by socializing. And they don't learn it from being with other children(they learn some negotiation skills and they learn lots of good things) but if you depend on children to teach children you will get a bunch of children.

If you want them to learn how to interact kindly and gently with others then I think it has to be at functions with adults who model that.

I spend a lot of time dialoguing about manners and socializing with my older girls. I try to emphasize that if you behave with a certain amount of decorum, try not to bother other people etc. then you are doing well socially.

manners are not about elbows on the table, they are about making sure the people you are with are comfortable(something I said to my MIL when she nagged my older girls one too many times about their frickin' elbows
















BUT(big BUT) with all that in mind, if you see an injustice, disagree with what someone has said or are hurt by someones words you must speak on that. Just speak in a rational manner so that the focus is on your words and what you are saying.

It's not about conformity for me. It's about being with people, taking them into consideration and politely disagreeing with them if they say something that is opposite of your principles.

I have digressed a bit but I do have a point. I think a 10 year old and a 7 year old can learn this. They should also have their ages taken into account. They won't be perfect and I understand teh OP's not wanting to embarrass them by calling them out on it in public.

I think keeping them occupied is very important. They are bundles of energy and that can be irritating in and of itself sometimes. I have a fidgeter and she makes me nervous just by her presence sometimes









I love when I see adults take kids under their wing and teach them something, treat them like adults and just talk to them, more importantly listen to them. I do see that but I also see a lot of "go play quietly" which makes me sad.

The best I can think of is to start by inviting adults to the kids events rather than inviting the kids to the adult's events. It's a good way to get to know each other and there is no pressure to "behave".


----------



## singin'intherain (Feb 4, 2006)

You can't really bring 4 kids to a party all by yourself and expect to be able to socialize. Most of what you'll be doing is kid management.[/QUOTE said:


> This would be my experience with my four. Unfortunately, my kids have also put me into positions where they were irritating everyone. This usually happens only when the adults are childless, but not always. My middle two, ages 5 and 6 are just plain rambunctious sometimes. There are plenty of times when my kids have thought that being out around other people, and me distracted, was the perfect time to play 'mommy deaf'. My kids have certainly been known to either ignore requests or be at it again in 10 seconds. It's great that some of the posters we've heard from have such well behaved children, but to say how the op's children 'should' behave is not very helpful. We all want kids who are calm and easy to get along with.
> 
> It also troubles me to hear it assumed by so many that the op has the support or resources to leave her children with someone else. I very rarely did anything without my kids until I separated from dh, because he did not want to take responsibilty for the kids. And I could never have paid a sitter to watch my kids. That just would have been extravagent. Let's not forget that many mothers are in a postition where everyone expects them to take care of others wants and needs and ignore their own. The op sounds like she is pretty isolated where she lives and is trying to get some adult time in. She expresses that these childless people are the only ones she has found to connect with in a small town. I assume that if she had better choices, she would make them.


----------



## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *singin'intherain* 
This would be my experience with my four. Unfortunately, my kids have also put me into positions where they were irritating everyone. This usually happens only when the adults are childless, but not always. My middle two, ages 5 and 6 are just plain rambunctious sometimes. There are plenty of times when my kids have thought that being out around other people, and me distracted, was the perfect time to play 'mommy deaf'. My kids have certainly been known to either ignore requests or be at it again in 10 seconds. It's great that some of the posters we've heard from have such well behaved children, but to say how the op's children 'should' behave is not very helpful. We all want kids who are calm and easy to get along with.

It also troubles me to hear it assumed by so many that the op has the support or resources to leave her children with someone else. I very rarely did anything without my kids until I separated from dh, because he did not want to take responsibilty for the kids. And I could never have paid a sitter to watch my kids. That just would have been extravagent. Let's not forget that many mothers are in a postition where everyone expects them to take care of others wants and needs and ignore their own. The op sounds like she is pretty isolated where she lives and is trying to get some adult time in. She expresses that these childless people are the only ones she has found to connect with in a small town. I assume that if she had better choices, she would make them.









:


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Kids "don't have the right to be annoying to others"? Is that how good/bad behavior is defined? I prefer to use more objective standards than that. And, adults are frequently annoying to others. It certainly isn't fair to have higher expectations of children than adults.

Yes, but people don't want to be around adults who are annoying to others anymore than they want to be around children who are annoying to others. That's the point. To teach social skills so that kids won't grow up to be adults that are annoying to others in social situations.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Yes, but people don't want to be around adults who are annoying to others anymore than they want to be around children who are annoying to others. That's the point. To teach social skills so that kids won't grow up to be adults that are annoying to others in social situations.

Yes, but still, person A might be annoyed by X, while person B might not be annoyed by X. This is way too subjective. There are some people who are simply easily annoyed.

And some people are annoyed by all young children. My daughter is pretty easy-going at this point and very well behaved. But there are some people who will be annoyed by her simply because she is young. I've heard people without children say that just eating in a restaurant where a child is annoys them - simply the presence of the child, regardless of behavior.

And, finally, teaching children social skills has to happen around other people, and children who are still learning are not going to behave perfectly. It's unfair to expect the same kind of behavior from them as you do from adults. If her friends are inviting her and her children, then they have to expect that children are going to be there. They also have a right to expect that the children are going to be adequately supervised and if they aren't they have a beef there. But they can't expect to never be annoyed. Children sometimes are annoying, from the perspective of people at an adult party.


----------



## alpenglow (Oct 29, 2007)

Way to go for reaching out! I know your post indicated you're looking for support and virtual hugs, but you've ended up receiving lots of great advice I agree with (LYN s6 had some good suggestions, along with several others). It takes strength to remain open to advice without becoming defensive (advice can easily be interpreted to be an indirect way of criticizing if it's not explicitly solicited), especially when you have the daily challenges of active boys!

I'll still add my 2 cents worth as you have a real opportunity to grow as a parent here (as we all do every day!):

ENVIRONMENT: Is the environment condusive to good behaviour? Do the kids have something to entertain them? Is there a way of barricading dangerous areas (e.g. where knives are being used). Is there a large, safe play area available where you're socializing to let the kids burn off some steam as kids (esp. boys!) need to do?!. If not, then it's time to reconsider where you meet.

NATURAL and LOGICAL CONSEQUENCES: Let's face it, life is full of consequences for our actions, both neg. and pos. Explanations of why bhv'r is wrong fall on deaf ears unless there are compelling reasons to stop it. This means meaning what you say! Every time we do or do not respond, a behaviour is still reinforced. Ignoring it says "you can do it" Saying not to do it but doing nothing about it if it continues also says "you can do that".

School age kids can easily tell you why they shouldn't do something if you ask them. They are also capable of giving an answer to the question, "What do you think is a fair consequence for having done ____?". What would stop you from doing it again?". "What would a BETTER choice be?" Kids love to be little judges and most have a really good grasp on fairness. Most intellectually understand what is right or wrong, but impulses override them- which is where an alpha, ie, YOU. is needed to guide them. If they're involved in the creating the solution, they're more likely to comply. Nevertheless, enforcing limitations teaches them how to exercise impulse control...a critically important life skill. Nothing ever works perfectly, but you may be surprised.


----------



## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Kids "don't have the right to be annoying to others"? Is that how good/bad behavior is defined? I prefer to use more objective standards than that. And, adults are frequently annoying to others. It certainly isn't fair to have higher expectations of children than adults.

Adults who are frequently annoying don't get invited more than once.


----------



## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

I think its very normal behavior. You might need to make better choices about what activities you can do with your kids. Outdoor things are great because they can run around and make lots of noise without bothering anyone. A sushi party in a small house probably isn't the best idea.

Do the kids have relatives of parents of their friends they can occasionally stay with so you can enjoy some time with your friends alone?


----------



## Hootandflutter (Feb 25, 2007)

Oh no! I thought I had subscribed to this thread. I got no emails, so I thought no one had responded!







I'll start reading through the posts now.


----------



## Hootandflutter (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DariusMom* 
I really think it is *your* job to redirect or correct your kids if they are trampling on your friends' needs and wants.

Yeah? They do seem hesitant. I guess I feel that I don't know what bothers them, and that their annoyance is their own pet to feed. Like, if I see my kids do something that clearly is not okay, I'll stop them and not wait for my friends to step in because it's something they're doing, say, to my friends stuff. But sometimes my friends are huffing, and looking at the kids, and looking at me, and I'm thinking, "What? What's wrong? Just say it!" But I will take this idea with me as I think about solutions. Thank you.


----------



## Hootandflutter (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom* 
so - in summary - it may not be your kids behavior per se . . . .put the quantity of children involved . .. .

Thank you for reminding me of that.


----------



## Hootandflutter (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Since your friends are asking, I'd help them understand. Offer to loan them your favorite parenting books....offer on-line links to articles that have helped you understand.

Have a viewing of the Alfie Kohn dvd with popcorn at your house.

Great idea on the Alfie Kohn DVD! I have loaned out all of my parenting books. They asked for them! It's a good start, I hope.


----------



## Hootandflutter (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
FI would rather have a teen or tween curled up with a book or some kind of game (maybe passive, but at least they are not bored and annoyed) than ruin a gathering with their boredom and annoyance at being stuck there.

Ooh, good idea for when we are elsewhere. I think my children see my friends as their friends, too. My friends normally start out the night wanting to play with my kids, wanting to read to them. It's just as the time goes on . . . but I guess my kids would be receptive to hearing that someone is going to play something else now, and they need to play something else too. I'll start planning for that. Thanks!


----------



## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

I teach my kids age-appropriate social skills, and resent your classifying kids who behave themselves as passive and apathetic, as mine are neither. Part of being respectful is teaching respect, IMO, and helping kids learn how to get along in the world. That can absolutely be done in a gentle way.


----------



## laoxinat (Sep 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Kids "don't have the right to be annoying to others"? Is that how good/bad behavior is defined? I prefer to use more objective standards than that. And, adults are frequently annoying to others. It certainly isn't fair to have higher expectations of children than adults.

My thought is to put it another way-"people have the right not to be subjected to annoying behavior". And Zee makes a great point, adults ARE frequently annoying to others. And, what is annoying to one person is just cute to the next. I do think some other posters' assertion that perhaps if those annoying adults had been given more effective information as kids, they might not be so annoying now is well taken. *I* was one of those kids who was rarely given guidance, but frequently punished for not following the rules. It is literally crazy-making. But I digress.
This is a situation where I think a conversation with the visitees beforehand to establish some parameters might help. Because it may be that what the OP thinks is annoying to others may not be and vice-versa. It's easy to assume what people think, but unless we ask, we will never know. I applaud the OP for seeking out information about this. WTG mama! Four kids _is_ a crowd for some folks to deal with, and the group _is_ going to need more frequent checking/monitoring for potentially irritating shenanigans. I personally think anyone with the patience to raise four kids is a saint. Two just about did me in


----------



## Hootandflutter (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
You have a good point. I only assumed that it kept happening because in my mind it would take the continuation of it happening to annoy people.

I should clarify that the main context -- okay, actually the only context-- of my socializing is a once-a-week potluck at my house, and holidays (eight/year, plus everyone's birthdays) at my house.

Yes, I respond to these behaviors. All of them. I will never accept un-okay behavior. I will never give in or give up and just let them hurt me or anyone else I love. But it often takes several tries for each behavior before it sinks in. There is no magic button I can press to stop my kids from ever again doing something which is not okay.

Individual things stop happening after I intervene, sometimes after I have intervened several times, but there's always something. Say, my seven-year-old will finally learn not to run in the kitchen, but next month he's leaving Legos underfoot. My five-year-old has recently, finally, stopped hitting in anger, but he still occasionally screams in anger. We're correcting that. We won't give up until he's 100% of the time able to take deep breaths and excuse himself, and after that we'll work on him until he's 100% able to actually stay calm and discuss his issues. It's progress but it's really darn slow.

I'm not sweating it because I hear it takes, like, eighteen years, before you can trust them 100% to self-correction, which is pretty long as mammals go. The important thing is to never give up, right?


----------



## Hootandflutter (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mpenny1001* 
That passive/apathetic comment really stood out to me as well. I know many many kids (and adults, lol!) that are really pleasant to be around and are not passive or apathetic. Why do you think those things are connected in your mind?

Oops! I'm sorry; I was perhaps unclear. I was using the quotes to indicate that someone says that is good, but it isn't really. I don't think good = passive/apathetic. I think that unfortunately often, "good" = passive and apathetic.

I mean to say I think that my friends, and society at large, envision a good child that way. My personal opinion is that good = responsible, compassionate, creative, honest and a host of other things which can result in being active and caring and involved.

But still, when that comes out in a little kid way, it can be annoying. Who wants a two-year-old to kiss them with tongue, you know? I would call it being good, because my kid cares so much about comforting my friend that he's gotten up from his play to kiss them. But my friend is like, "Ew, god, can't your kid just stay out of my hair when I'm upset? No! No! Stop! He used his tongue!"

What I would say is, "I love that you care and I hate that you licked me," and I would consider that tolerating the kid.

Someone else mentioned that it's not my job to teach the world to tolerate my child, but I often feel, in situations like the above, that I would like to teach the whole world to tolerate kids in general, to look beyond the behavior to the intention and correct the behavior with that in mind. Because if you just shout, "NO! STOP!" and a kid thinks he's comforting you, then you're telling your kid not to comfort you. You have to say, "STOP LICKING!" to tell them that licking doesn't comfort you. It's a small but, IMO, essential distinction.


----------



## Hootandflutter (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gsd1amommy* 
Trying to engage a ten year old with his coat on who is just standing around waiting to be 'Done"...
All in all, I would have called it a night and taken them

Oh! Now I realize why you all thought we weren't home! The oldest, the 10yo, is a stepchild. He was waiting to go home to his mom's house with his coat on. The others were at home.


----------



## Hootandflutter (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 
I think what you need to do is to work with the children and practice what is expected of them in the company of adults. The 7 and 10 year old are certainly old enough to learn. Being socially able is an advantage. When you are invited somewhere you have a responsibility to behave in a certain way. I think most 7 and 10 year olds can learn this while still maintaining their own personalities.

I think they can too. Here's my strategy so far. Before a social event, we go over the problems that we had last time, the problems that we anticipate, and affirm and discuss the ways the kids need to act. The kids are active participants in this -- they question, they reach understanding, they agree. Sometimes they even ask me, "What do I do if . . . ?"

During social events, if we notice the kids messing up, we will either correct them on the spot -- do-overs, or "how would you feel if?", and/or redirecting. Other tools but it depends on the problem and you know what I mean, generally, right?

Afterwards, we bring up again any problems that occured. My partner and I talk about this together but without kids, as well as with the kids.

So I don't know if it's temperment (sp?) or discipline, as you ask, but I'm really hoping it's the discipline because otherwise, doesn't that imply my kids are just bad eggs?


----------



## Hootandflutter (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fek&fuzz* 
It is not your friends' job to parent your children.

Normally, I'd agree. But these are my inner circle. These are the people who stepped forward and said, "Can I be godparent?" and "Will you let me practice parenting on your kids?" and "We'll be here when they're teens to provide that informal extra parenting teens often seek out from mentors in the community." One is the fiance of my partner's adult son.

I would never ever expect some random person, or heck, even my parents -- they're not very grandparenty -- to parent my kids. But I think in this case they feel invested and responsible. We talk about the days when they will have kids and I will be just as involved. They want to learn to do this because they want to do this.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fek&fuzz* 
Did you do anything when these situations came up?

Yes! In every case! The two-year-old I said, "Watch out!" then redirected. With the five-year-old, I asked him to implement an alternative strategy for dealing with frustration (and he did). With the ten-year-old, we explained why this was not cool and how it upsets us. That didn't have any effect, but we later came up with some tools to prevent his getting so annoyed. With the seven-year-old, I stood in the doorway and redirected, twice, then realized that was stupid and went and talked to him about the severity of the dilemma, then set him up with something else to do.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fek&fuzz* 
What was the focus of the get together? Was it "Girl's night" with your kids, or was it "Family Night"?

It was the weekly family-style potluck dinner that we have with friends who are so close they're like family, and family we like so much that we'd choose them as friends. These are our nearest and dearest.


----------



## Hootandflutter (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
I teach my kids age-appropriate social skills, and resent your classifying kids who behave themselves as passive and apathetic, as mine are neither.

That was not my intended meaning!

Here's a scenario to illustrate what I meant. Supposing your five-year-old is leaning over a rope at an exhibit and is told by the museum official, "Don't do that!" Your child stands up and responds with a startled, "why?" The museum official puffs up his chest and says, "Because I told you not to do so!" and then turns to you and says, "With gentle discipline, how do you teach them to obey the first time?"

My idea of good is that the kids pursue knowledge about appropriate boundaries, and respect those boundaries. I think a child who wants to know why they are being asked to do something is meeting that criteria, and a child who is passive and apathetic is not. But it often feels like most of the world thinks that a kid should be quiet and still and not ask questions and worship at the feet of all people of legal voting age. (That was an exaggeration.) My friends are coming from a background which assumes that stereotype is what a good child is.

Now that I've explained to all of you the difference, I think I'm well prepared to explain it to my friends!


----------



## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

I'm glad you checked back in to clear things up, Hootandflutter! The clarification that these get-togethers are at your house is really important, IMO -- if these friends come to your house repeatedly and often, they need to understand that some things just come with the territory. It sounds like they're well-intentioned, but ... well ... a little bit snotty and self-centered, too.

It sounds like you're really going out of your way to help your kids behave in a way that your friends find tolerable, but really, your friends need to compromise too, and maybe bring down their expectations of what a night in the home of a family with 4 kids is going to be like.


----------



## twilight girl (Mar 7, 2002)

We have some similar issues as well. Although mostly among our American friends. Our Costa Rican and international friends are FAR more tolerant of kids being kids, and recognizing that getting to good behavior is a path that children need to be guided along. I am always more relaxed with my children around internationals. I am more uptight with my children when we are in the US or around American friends, or people without children/unaccustomed to small children.

It sounds as if you need to put more into pre-event planning so that the children have things to do during the adult gathering. They may want to drift in and out of the adult setting, but there should be a place they can go to do kid stuff if they get bored with the adult setting. That may be renting a movie and making popcorn if you are not opposed to movies. Or set up a craft area and give them a project.

But, most importantly, I´m finding that it is unrealistic to expect both adult parents to be able to participate 100% in the adult event. My husband and I take turns in social settings.

Hands down our favorite, most comfortable social setting is the home of some German friends who have a huge backyard with lots of kids' activities. They always have 10-15 families over with loads of kids running all around, and almost no kid has to be corrected. There are dads outside watching them play in the yard, moms inside loosely supervising things. And the ages range from infant to teenager, so there are also built in kid babysitters!

When the scenario is going out to eat or other situation in which out daughter has to put on her more adult behavior, then we try to bring things that interest her. Coloring, a craft, a movie. Something.

About your comment that these are your friends who wanted to be godparents and "practice parenting" with your children ... I'm *sure* they didn't really mean that they wanted to be in charge of disciplining your kids at social gatherings! Remember back before you had kids? You didn't know the enormity of it either. I would welcome and enjoy any time that my friends wanted to dedicate to my children. But that can never become an expectation, even if they offered themselves up as godparents.

And while they might enjoy the novelty of reading to your kids early in the gathering, they aren't really coming over to babysit or have a playdate with your kids. So, it's great that they get in some quality time with your kids, but you should be realistic about how long and how far that extends.

Good luck!


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hootandflutter* 
Yes! In every case! The two-year-old I said, "Watch out!" then redirected. With the five-year-old, I asked him to implement an alternative strategy for dealing with frustration (and he did). With the ten-year-old, we explained why this was not cool and how it upsets us. That didn't have any effect, but we later came up with some tools to prevent his getting so annoyed. With the seven-year-old, I stood in the doorway and redirected, twice, then realized that was stupid and went and talked to him about the severity of the dilemma, then set him up with something else to do.

It sounds like you are doing everything that *I* would expect a friend to do with her dc.
I think it is likely one of two things. Either your friends think that kids should just be good, obey immediately, sit quietly, etc. Or it's just that you have 4 kids!
I know that I get quite overwhelmed when I go to my friend's house. She has 2 kids, so with mine, there are 3 kids. It's a lot for me. It seems like there's always something- loudness, or one kid bothering another, or a fight over a toy, etc- normal kid stuff (they are all age 2-4). It's hard, even for me, and I'm well aware that its age appropriate stuff, and I know my friend is disciplining in those situations.

I do think that it might be a good thing to try to be more aware of your friends' irritations with your dc. If they are looking at you like they want you to do something, ask outright if there's something that is bothering them.


----------



## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hootandflutter* 
I should clarify that the main context -- okay, actually the only context-- of my socializing is a once-a-week potluck at my house, and holidays (eight/year, plus everyone's birthdays) at my house.

Yes, I respond to these behaviors. All of them. I will never accept un-okay behavior. I will never give in or give up and just let them hurt me or anyone else I love. But it often takes several tries for each behavior before it sinks in. There is no magic button I can press to stop my kids from ever again doing something which is not okay.

Individual things stop happening after I intervene, sometimes after I have intervened several times, but there's always something.

If that's the case, then I'd say that your friends need to lighten up. You could tell them that if they're uncomfortable redirecting your kids, they should ask you to do it, since they seem to be close.

If there's a pattern to your kids 'misbehavior' (not that it really is, it's just kids being kids), you might think about reorganizing things a bit. For example, you could actively ask one of your friends if they could keep the kids busy while you finish dinner, or plan a down-time activity for after dinner when the kids are getting tired and are less able to entertain themselves. So, the 7 and 10 you could play a board game, maybe an art project for the younger ones?


----------



## alllyssa (Sep 1, 2004)

I don't know what that's about, but it's the truth. We all need a break and I'm sure even you would have more fun w/o the kids on occasion. Why not give yourself, your kids, and your friends a break occasionally and leave the boys home w/ dad?


----------



## iamleabee (Jul 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 
This is interesting.

I am a firm believer that children learn how to socialize by socializing. And they don't learn it from being with other children(they learn some negotiation skills and they learn lots of good things) but if you depend on children to teach children you will get a bunch of children.


this. is. so. true. WOW. i work in an inner city where the children are often raised by children. i'll talk with a 17yo sucking her thumb about her 2yo. the grandparents are young too. you have to go back to great-grandparents to get actual "parenting" sometimes.

but i digress i just had to say something because it was so profoundly true IMHO.


----------



## alpenglow (Oct 29, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hootandflutter* 

So I don't know if it's temperment (sp?) or discipline, as you ask, but I'm really hoping it's the discipline because otherwise, doesn't that imply my kids are just bad eggs?

Absolutely not. Have you read Dr. Sears "The Fussy Baby Book"? (geared to the 0-5 age bracket but it does explain temperment well). The picture he paints of very active "high needs" kids (that are incidentally often annoying to others) is that when guided/channeled well, their seemingly challenging behaviours end up being assets when they're grown into intelligent, caring ...and still energetic adults!

Your posts make you sound like you're doing a wonderful job parenting 4 active boys, and that your kids are very normal. I bet they just get really excited in crowds of people, and evenings are always more challenging with behaviours. I agree with some other posters that maybe it's time to go out without the kids (or maybe have a once a month girls night or try for a daytime gathering outdoors?). And maybe your friends space away from your kids will help them to see them more positively next time round. I know I can get overwhelmed when things are noisy/busy - which can easily cloud perceptions. But let me repeat - you seem like a warm, open and intelligent parent.


----------



## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hootandflutter* 
Oh! Now I realize why you all thought we weren't home! The oldest, the 10yo, is a stepchild. He was waiting to go home to his mom's house with his coat on. The others were at home.

This is why I thought you were at someone else's home.

The fact that you are at your own place makes it completely different.

What I am hearing is that your friends come over and hang with the kids and play and all that but eventually they get a bit bored of all that and then want the kids to just "behave" so they can get on with stuff.

I don't know how late this is but it sounds like kind of an informal gathering, maybe put on videos for the kids after a certain time. Books, bed for the younger ones..I don't know how late these gatherings are.

10 year old boy standing by the door waiting impatiently with his coat on, perfectly acceptable behaviour.

I know for me, we try to limit screen time. But I do have a routine that it goes on for an hour while I prepare dinner because it's just dangerous(2 year old here too) and we've had a couple close calls. So I set that as their video time so that they get their time to vegetate and I get to cook. I'm alone so I have no one to watch them much of the time. Teh older kids usually work on homework then if they have any, dh is away a lot.

If you don't do tv then get one of your friends to be in charge of entertaining them while dinner is being prepared.

I think you are doing just fine. I think how you go over with your kids what went wrong the last time and then make a plan to make it better next time...well that could work for your friends too.

Talk to them. Say..last time there were a few glitches...what can we do to fix this.

I think your parenting is fine. I think your kids are fine and I think your friends are fine. and I want to come to your house for potluck
















I just think it's all a matter of logistics. Delegating someone to watch 2 year old during dinner prep., someone to chat to 10 year old boy who has to leave all the fun, can't really participate because he's going to have to go etc.

Setting yourself up for success(I've said that twice on here today) is the key. Getting your friends on board with that it vital.

Let us know what you do and how the next gathering goes.

Goodluck!


----------



## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *iamleabee* 
this. is. so. true. WOW. i work in an inner city where the children are often raised by children. i'll talk with a 17yo sucking her thumb about her 2yo. the grandparents are young too. you have to go back to great-grandparents to get actual "parenting" sometimes.

but i digress i just had to say something because it was so profoundly true IMHO.


That's really sad. Wow. I had no idea..I see it with teens, Dr. Jason Neufeld describes it somewhat in "Hold on to your Kids" but that level of it, I guess I didn't realise it was that pervasive...what kind of work do you do?


----------



## skolbut (Feb 18, 2008)

Here is my suggestion -- this is something I did with my friends' children when they came over to hang out BEFORE my son was born, so I was the childless one (we did this regularly, and still do, but now I'm a mama too):

I had some way for them to get involved in the process and take ownership of their setting. Now, we weren't doing sushi or anything with sharp knives, and I have a pretty big kitchen. So, the 5 year old boys were in charge of mixing juice in the sink. They stood on chairs over the sink, stayed out of our way, got wet and sticky, spilled some juice down the drain, and had a blast (then we sent them to take a bath upstairs). The 8 year old ran the toaster or stirred/mixed something, the 2 year old set the table with help or got things out of the fridge or pantry, and we all socialized in the kitchen. When that was done, it was playdough at the kitchen table or cars on the floor in the hallway (not under our feet).

FYI, these were kids that would be considered more rambunctious than others (except the now 9 year old who has the most responsible little soul!)

I'm not sure of your complete setting, but if your kids were more involved in the process, maybe they wouldn't feel left out and exhibit "annoying" behaviors. Your kids seemed to show typical age appropriate behaviors, but it sounds like they were just bored and didn't know how to more appropriately direct their energy.


----------

