# I am furious... what would you have done? UPDATE IN OP



## petra_william (Nov 28, 2007)

so today i invited some friends plus children round in the afternoon. all same age as DS ( 2 1/2) apart from one little sister, nearly one.
the mum of the two girls with the one year old had to go back to work and her partner works shifts so they can share the childcare, so he came round with the kids.
DS was very tired (not making excuses but never helps) and was being very possessive over his toys, especially the ones the one year old was playing with... she had a hairbrush and he tried taking it off her saying "mine" so i encouraged him to play with something else and let the baby have a go.
i was then in the kitchen making some cups of tea when i heard the dad say "NO you DONT hit!" in quite a stern voice. i turned round, as the baby girl wasnt crying and he had already given ds a verbal telling off i left it at that, just saying that i dont know where ds has got the hitting from. (he hit her on the head with the brush) i didnt see what happened so going by what the dad said.
later:
i am in the kitchen, putting stuff away after drinking the tea or something, mhy back is turned again. next thing i know, DS and baby girl (M) are screaming, crying their eyes out. i go in, confused, thinking ds hurt himself or something. the dad looks at me and *shouts* William just hit M over the head and it WASNT an ACCIDENT!!" I take a second to realize whats going on, M is sat next to her dad crying, DS over a metre away on the floor crying. i just *know* that the dad pushed him over/away.
i take ds upstairs, angry and upset at what has happened, take a few minutes to calm us both down, tell william that we must not hit, its not nice and hurts. i ask him to come back down with me to give M a kiss ot say sorry (he cant *say* sorry yet) so i go back down, the dad is stood holding M, i walk over with DS, lift him up and say give M a kiss then. William looks across but the dad doesnt make any effort to lower M so that DS could say sorry, apart from kissing her bum / legs. he looks away after a while and buries his head in my shoulders and starts crying again, so i take him upstairs and say "lets get you to sleep" as i am upstairs i hear them talking downstiars and then leaving, the two mums calling bye but the dad saying nothing.
i had to leave the room or i would have snapped at the dad.
i have asked one of the mums whether the dad did push ds and that was confirmed.
this guy is a police officer, a head taller than me so about 190cm and quite strong so a slight push, that doesnt seem to take much effort is quite a lot for a 28lb boy. plus i thought he should be able to control himself better, and telling a kid not to hit while pushing him over isnt sending the right message either. i have sent the mum of the baby a text asking her to call me back because i want to talk to her.

am i over reacting? dp is fuming and wants to report him but i asked him notto because i dont want it to ruin the friendship between his wife and me. he isnt welcome in this house anymore.

UPDATE:

I rang one of the other mums and she confirmed that the dad pushed william over. I then texted his wife and asked her to call me back when she got chance, which she did. the conversation went somehow like this:
mum:hi, how are you
me: well.. ok, how are you
mum:cant really say can i...
me:did dad talk to you about today?
mum:yes
me: what did he say
mum:that William hit M over the head
me: yes... did he also tell you that he pushed william over and shouted at me angrily?
mum:... *no answer*
i then told her my version of the story, as above.
mum:i am furius with dad... for taking the girls there. if i would have known that he was going to yours i would have told him not to go.
me: why?
mum:tells me about an incident last week at playgroup where ds hit her older dd (same age as william) with a small train. i dealt with it there and then, taking him away from the situation and talking to him about what hed done etc. the mum told me that she was so upset by him hitting her that she was crying. she said that she'd wanted to talk to me about it but didnt - i dont know why she didnt in the end but i wish she had as we could have dealt with it then, before it escalated.
me: i dealt with that at the time and im sorry it happened but i cant glue william to me all thetime and i cant predict when he might do it. all i can do is deal with it and apologize.

after thatits kind ofblurred cos i couldnt quite believe she was still laying all the blame on me... she said that she always thought it was stupid for parents to fall out over kids fighting or whatever but she didnt want to seeme anymore because she wanted to protect me frommy 2 1/2 year old who "should know better." she said she hoped for my sake and for the new babies sake (im 4 1/2mths pregnant) that he would grow out of it.
i asked her if she could remember just under a year ago when the girls went throgh a stage of hitting / biting / scratching. at the time william was the one who didnt do anything of the sort but now he has come to that stage, just later. i said that at the end of the day heis a toddler who needs tolearn certain things and is going through a mormal toddler stage. she kept putting an emphasis on how is 2 1/2 years old and shouldnt hit a younger baby. i tried to explain to her that a nearly 2metre tall muscly man pushing him over - even if it was gut reaction - isnt going to teach him that its not ok to pick on smaller kids. she said that i would have to talk to the dad about that but i told her at this point in time i couldnt do that. (by this point she was shouting at me and i had been crying for a while)
she said that the dad was just protecting her little girl, i again said that i fully understand that but that there was no need to be aggressivce to either my son or me. she again said that my son hit her daughter over the head and she had a mark on her head from it and the dad was just protecting her. i had the phone on loudspeaker so dp could hear and he was fuming already and snapped eventually saying that the dad was an adult, a policeman at that and should know better than to assault a child.
she then put the phone down on me and dp took a walk to town to the police station. i couldnt stop him from going although i didnt quite agree. the station was shut when he got there though.
on the way back he came across a patrolling officer and asked him what constituted child abuse. the officer said oh thats difficult to say in one sentance so dp told him the scenario without telling names. the oficer said that itwas out of order. dp then asked "what if that man was a police officer himself?" the officer just said "he should know better" which seemed to satisfy dp for a while, also the walk back gave him some time to think. he said that if the dad would apologize he would leave it, if not, he would report him. the police dont like their own people doing wrong.

icalled my friend who was there too and told her what had happened, what had been said etc. she said that the dad should know about my dp wanting to report him which i agreed with but i couldnt call her back after the way she was talking to me. she then rang her for me and called me back afterwards.she didnt really leton what the wife said but then she is a traiined councelor so im pretty sure she handled the situation ok. she said i could call her today if i wanted to talk or meet.

im just gutted that this escalated so much, i wish thedad cold have just left me to deal with the situation in a way i deemed appropriate.

sp said to me that i should have asked the wife how she would have reacted if my dp would have pushed her dd out of the way and shouted at her. i never even thought of asking her that....

im exhausted and shaking....

thanks for the insight so far, i agree that i should have kept a closer eye on ds after the first incidet...hindsight is a nice thing... going to read the last 3 pages now...


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

It's hard to say. He might have been simply trying to break them up, and over-did it a bit. He may not have much experience refereeing children that way, and to him your son is a bigger boy whacking his daughter on the head.

It wasn't the right thing to do, but I would find it hard to judge how bad it was without knowing more about how the dad usually copes.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

I'd have been angry at the yelling. I believe he needed to do something, but it's pretty easy to pull a one year old out of the way and say 'no hitting.' If he didn't have an older child I'd think he didn't have much experience with 2 year olds. Complaining angrily that DS hit his daughter 'on purpose,' that's so age-appropriate and normal it makes me wonder if he's spent any time with his older daughter at all. Or maybe she's unusually docile.

If this is a regular play group and you want to smooth things over, you might want to start by apologizing to the girls' mother for DS hitting the younger girl and explain you'll make sure to stay closer to him since he seems to be going through a stage. Doesn't matter that the 'stage' is 'normal tired two year old', they probably want to know they can bring the younger child to the group safely without having to hold her all the time.

And whenever the dad is there, I'd stay in the room with him, and if you absolutely must leave, take DS with you. He may not have meant to push DS that hard, it's impossible to know without having been there, but it sounds like his judgment is off about how to deal with toddler interactions. Who knows what he'd do if a kid bit his daughter! If you're there you can deal with DS's behavior yourself in the way you feel is appropriate so he doesn't have a chance to.


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## Rowansmama (Feb 17, 2009)

It's hard to say what happened without having been there. I know most Dads are super-overprotective of their little daughters (DH is, that's for sure). He may have reacted more aggressively than he realized, or perhaps he's just not good at dealing with discipline. If the Dad is going to be coming regularly, I'd just watch how he interacts from now on. This could have been a one time thing. I'd be very upset, however, if anyone pushed my child, no matter what the reason!


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## Violet2 (Apr 26, 2007)

I will say, just for perspective, that the other day DD was hurting our older dog and I was working with her on being gentle and kind doing all the *right* GD things. She went in to hurt our dog again (poor thing!) and I instinctively moved to prevent her from doing so with a little more force than I intended and I knocked DD down.

She was quite upset but it was a complete accident, on instinct trying to protect the most vulnerable being in the situation.

But I apologized to DD and was very sorry about the whole thing. Which it sounds like the Dad in your situation was not.

All this to say, he may not have consciously intended to push your LO and the whole thing may have been an accident. He may also have been reacting very emotionally to a perceived threat to his child; the heat of a fight or flight reaction may have been hot in his blood. Not saying he is right, just suggesting that his behavior was more of a (bad) reaction than willful intent to be a jerk.

However, I too, would not invite him back although I would also try to recognize that he may not be abusive, kwim?

V


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bluegoat* 
It's hard to say. He might have been simply trying to break them up, and over-did it a bit. He may not have much experience refereeing children that way, and to him your son is a bigger boy whacking his daughter on the head.

It wasn't the right thing to do, but I would find it hard to judge how bad it was without knowing more about how the dad usually copes.

This. I understand how upsetting it probably was to both you and to your son. But I think reporting him is a huge overkill.

I can also see how the dad might have thought that you weren't watching your son close enough after the first time he hit the baby. I'm not saying this is the case. Things happen quickly, and you can not be there every single second. I'm just saying from the father's point of view, after having seen his baby hit not once but twice, he may have been upset too. That could have had something to do with him not sayng goodbye or letting your son kiss his dd.

He, on the other hand, had no right whatsoever to lay a hand on your son unless it was to gently disengage him from his child. I think calmly addressing the issue with him, not his wife would be the way to go. His wife wasn't there and didn't see what happened. You could just say that you wanted to check in with him about what happened. You are sorry that your son hit his dd, but you heard that he pushed your son forcefully and you need to talk about it.


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## StrawberryFields (Apr 6, 2005)

Well, if you want me to be entirely honest in this WWYD situation, I would have been apologetic (and embarrassed) that my 2.5 year old was hitting his baby over the head with a hairbrush and not allowed them to be alone without very close supervision, even for a second. I would feel understanding that he was angry and upset that his baby was being hit on the head. Since the push wasn't witnessed I don't think I could be angry about it--I agree that he could have been just trying to break them up. Sometimes when I am trying to pull off a child who is being too aggressive with another one, or block someone from hitting/getting too physical, the child ends up on his/her bum. I think it is very possible that the dad was trying to protect his baby and is not really experienced in that type of situation.

I think that if you have a child who is tired/possessive/hitting (as age appropriate as that may be), you really need to be on top of your kid and keep him with you at all times (even for a quick run to the kitchen) because it is not fair to put the other parents in a position of having to defend their children from being hit/hurt. So I would chalk it up to a lesson learned and keep my ds closer to me at the next playdate.


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## petra_william (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onemomentatatime* 
I'd have been angry at the yelling. I believe he needed to do something, but it's pretty easy to pull a one year old out of the way and say 'no hitting.' If he didn't have an older child I'd think he didn't have much experience with 2 year olds. Complaining angrily that DS hit his daughter 'on purpose,' that's so age-appropriate and normal it makes me wonder if he's spent any time with his older daughter at all. Or maybe she's unusually docile.

*
He started to look after them more about 3 months ago when his wife went back to work. they *know* i dont to time outs as such ( i take ds away and talk to him, but stay with him) they do do time outs and also cio - we all know we do things differently and thats never been a problem but it seemed to me like he wanted me to yell at ds or "make him cry" through punishing him in some way and because i dont do that he "did it for me" iyswim. all the girls went through a hitting/pushing/biting/scratching stage at about 18 months to 2 years so he wasnt there when his daughter was going through that, but i have seen her do something before when he simply told her "no" iyswim, no yelling, no pushing. i wouldnt dream of doing it to my own child, never mind someone elses.*

If this is a regular play group and you want to smooth things over, you might want to start by apologizing to the girls' mother for DS hitting the younger girl and explain you'll make sure to stay closer to him since he seems to be going through a stage. Doesn't matter that the 'stage' is 'normal tired two year old', they probably want to know they can bring the younger child to the group safely without having to hold her all the time.

And whenever the dad is there, I'd stay in the room with him, and if you absolutely must leave, take DS with you. He may not have meant to push DS that hard, it's impossible to know without having been there, but it sounds like his judgment is off about how to deal with toddler interactions. Who knows what he'd do if a kid bit his daughter! If you're there you can deal with DS's behavior yourself in the way you feel is appropriate so he doesn't have a chance to.

the mum should be handing in her notice soon, work is awful... so the dad wont be around for much longer


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william* 
DS ( 2 1/2) apart from one little sister, nearly one.

A bunch of two and a half year olds need pretty constant supervision. Add a less than one year old to the mix and that only increases the need of adult "help" to make this go well.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william*
DS was very tired (not making excuses but never helps) and was being very possessive over his toys,

Whatever he was having a hard time sharing should have been put away. If he is tired and not able to share something well and the other child is MUCH younger and smaller then you have to be right there. If you don't want another adult handling it (in a way that you don't agree with - which honestly I don't blame you as I don't agree with it either) then YOU need to be right there to handle it yourself. Leaving the situation to someone else means you are leaving it to them. I think both you and the dad hold responsibility in this situation.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william*
(he hit her on the head with the brush)

Ok, at this point you REALLY need to be right next to him from here on out. He is sending really clear signals that he can't handle this situation without your help. And if my child hurts another child, tired or not, it is now my first responsibility to keep that from happening again. Not refilling another guest's tea is a lesser issue than a baby being hit for a second time. First time unfortunate but kids are kids. Second time is mom's fault and as the parent of the baby, I'd be really mad too.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william*
later: i am in the kitchen, putting stuff away after drinking the tea or something, mhy back is turned again. next thing i know, DS and baby girl (M) are screaming, crying their eyes out. i go in, confused, thinking ds hurt himself or something. the dad looks at me and *shouts* William just hit M over the head and it WASNT an ACCIDENT!!"

I don't understand why you are in a different room when your two and a half year old has already hit a baby on the head with a brush. Dad is shouting because his baby is being pummelled.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william*
i thought he should be able to control himself better, and telling a kid not to hit while pushing him over isnt sending the right message either. i have sent the mum of the baby a text asking her to call me back because i want to talk to her.

Yes, a grown man should not push a two year old. But you didn't see what happened. Did he put his arm up to shield his baby from getting hit again and your ds lost his balance when he ran into it? Not knowing how big or coordinated your son is makes it hard to tell. If he was a ways away, there is no way to know if he was actually pushed or fell over and backed away when the dad got mad.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william*
am i over reacting? dp is fuming and wants to report him but i asked him notto because i dont want it to ruin the friendship between his wife and me. he isnt welcome in this house anymore.

Yes, you are over reacting. You were wrong not to be there to help your son control himself. Reporting him is complete overkill IMO. I think group playdates with kids of this age requires close supervision. I'd expect apologies both directions in the situation you describe. They deserve one because you let your son hit their baby in the head with a brush not once but twice. You deserve one IF he actually pushed your ds. Next time just be there and the whole thing will be avoided.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

I'm sorry, but yeah, I would have pushed away a two and a half year old too if he was beating my BABY on the head with a hairbrush!!! (Or any other object). She's not even one yet - still very little.

Now granted, I wouldn't have pushed hard at all, but even a little push to break things up or put some space between two kids can seem like a big push because toddlers don't have that great of balance at walking backwards. So they fall on their bottoms.

I suspect Dad was probably ticked that you didn't correct your son but took him off for cuddling - since the correction happened upstairs, Dad didn't see it so as far as he's concerned it never happened.

I would SO not report him to anyone. He was justly upset.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

I'd be very upset. I wouldn't report him though.

A tired 2.5 year old hitting isn't some huge, never happened before thing. It's totally age appropriate. A grown man pushing a child is not.

Yes, there should have been more supervision. If this was my house, with my friends, I would trust that one of them could supervise while I put something away. If I were the parent of the 1 year old, I'd be upset my child had been hit (although really, I probably would have put away a toy that was causing this much stress), but I certainly wouldn't push the child who did it.

I know I'm overprotective of my kids, but someone else discliplining my child in that way would cause a huge strain on our friendship. Most of our friends don't use gently discipline, but they respect that they are not our children's parent and don't make that choice.


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

Hmmmmm... I think I'd be mad, too. What did the other moms think of the way he treated your ds? I suppose that would probably make all the difference to me.

As for being all your fault. I don't know. Obviously, yes, it would have been better if you were right there to stop your ds, but it doesn't sound to me like the kind of situation where you'd think all h*ll would brake loose in the two minutes you were in the kitchen. I used to have a friend who's 2 1/2 year old was really hurting other kids, and the other moms were very frustrated with her for never seeing it or being there when it happened. In that situation, the mom should have stuck to her kid like glue bc he had a history of really hurting other kids badly (he was a big little guy), but it doesn't sound like that's the case here.
I bet if the mom had been there it would have been totally different, not bc all dads are psycho, but just this particular guy.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

But, it IS possible to be firm and clear, even without time outs or yelling. My bottom line is if my kids hit at playdates, if it had a reason or whatever, they may get a warning, then we leave becuase if my ds can't be safe around others, then we can't be with them for that time. We'll try again another day. No yelling or punishment needed- but the message is clear and it is part of the collective responsibility to not allow the other children to be hurt either. If somedays that means leaving because we are at a stage where things are not working with other kids, so be it.

Of course, it was your house, so not quite so easy. But there are a few other options (such as not letting him out of your sight, putting him to bed earlier, or even saying to the other people "Looks like we're having a hard time today. Maybe we can end this a bit early and try again next time?"). I'm absolutely not saying that what the dad did was "the right way", but I'd be miffed too if my kid was getting hit multiple times and the mom said "Please play with something else...". It is not that I am looking for "punishment". It is that I am looking for recognition from the other mother that she also sees that what happened was serious for my child and that I can trust her to help keep my child safe as well. I don't need punishment, but if I am to trust the other mother, I need recognition that she is respectful and understanding of my child's need for safety and will act to make that happen.

Again, I think that there are multiple possibilities here (sometimes a block or even taking a dangerous implement away from a child can cause them to loose their balance), but I think that, in line with much of the gentle discipline philosophies, there is more that _you_ need to do to make sure that 1.) Other people are not left to discipline your child because you are not there when they are clearly in need of guidance and 2.) Finding gentle and effective ways of letting your child know that dangerous behaviors are not acceptable and building trust among your own friends (the parents of the children) by sending messages that you will not allow their children to be hurt either.

If it turns out that a strange adult yelled terrifyingly at your child and then pushed them (on purpose), I'd be mad. Real mad. If they were doing their best to protect their own child while you were not there by using their own methods and your son fell over from being prevented from hitting someone... It is not quite so straightforward and I'd think first about my own actions and responsibilities as to what I could have done differently from this sitaution happening again.


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## Cujobunny (Aug 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
A bunch of two and a half year olds need pretty constant supervision. Add a less than one year old to the mix and that only increases the need of adult "help" to make this go well.

Whatever he was having a hard time sharing should have been put away. If he is tired and not able to share something well and the other child is MUCH younger and smaller then you have to be right there. If you don't want another adult handling it (in a way that you don't agree with - which honestly I don't blame you as I don't agree with it either) then YOU need to be right there to handle it yourself. Leaving the situation to someone else means you are leaving it to them. I think both you and the dad hold responsibility in this situation.

Ok, at this point you REALLY need to be right next to him from here on out. He is sending really clear signals that he can't handle this situation without your help. And if my child hurts another child, tired or not, it is now my first responsibility to keep that from happening again. Not refilling another guest's tea is a lesser issue than a baby being hit for a second time. First time unfortunate but kids are kids. Second time is mom's fault and as the parent of the baby, I'd be really mad too.

I don't understand why you are in a different room when your two and a half year old has already hit a baby on the head with a brush. Dad is shouting because his baby is being pummelled.









Yes, a grown man should not push a two year old. But you didn't see what happened. Did he put his arm up to shield his baby from getting hit again and your ds lost his balance when he ran into it? Not knowing how big or coordinated your son is makes it hard to tell. If he was a ways away, there is no way to know if he was actually pushed or fell over and backed away when the dad got mad.

Yes, you are over reacting. You were wrong not to be there to help your son control himself. Reporting him is complete overkill IMO. I think group playdates with kids of this age requires close supervision. I'd expect apologies both directions in the situation you describe. They deserve one because you let your son hit their baby in the head with a brush not once but twice. You deserve one IF he actually pushed your ds. Next time just be there and the whole thing will be avoided.

I agree completely with all of this.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

Is this a group from an NCT class, by any chance?

I would not welcome that family without mum there. If she suggests dad bringing the little ones because she's working, I'd tell her bluntly that you aren't comfortable with that- and why. If you don't want to lose her friendship over this, tell her that, but honestly, in the mummy wars good friends and allies have been lost for far less.

I think there's a few things you can learn from this: if your kid needs you because he's tired and acting up, it's OK to ask someone else to put the kettle on sometimes, or to ask him to come with you to "help" to give him some time to regroup. Sometimes, it's necessary to put kids before hospitality and your friends will understand that. I don't blame you for not being there, because these things can happen in a split-second and frankly, even if you had been right there on top of him, he could still have hit.


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## GoestoShow (Jul 15, 2009)

.


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## New_Natural_Mom (Dec 21, 2007)

Not to be rude, but why weren't you in there with your son? Keep in mind, DS is only 18 months and I have no other children, but if I had people at my house or DS was at a playdate somewhere else I would be in the room with him supervising. He is my child, I know him best, and I feel it would be my responsibility to supervise him. This way you could have intervened with any negative behavior (hitting etc.)

I have to say, I get very upset if another child pushes/hits DS. I get angry. Even if it is "age appropriate." If it happens I immediately separate the children and redirect DS to something else not involving the "hitter." I can see the dad's point of view. That said, it is never appropriate to push or yell at someone else's child (IMO).

What were the other moms doing?


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## mama k nj (Dec 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrawberryFields* 
Well, if you want me to be entirely honest in this WWYD situation, I would have been apologetic (and embarrassed) that my 2.5 year old was hitting his baby over the head with a hairbrush and not allowed them to be alone without very close supervision, even for a second. I would feel understanding that he was angry and upset that his baby was being hit on the head. Since the push wasn't witnessed I don't think I could be angry about it--I agree that he could have been just trying to break them up. Sometimes when I am trying to pull off a child who is being too aggressive with another one, or block someone from hitting/getting too physical, the child ends up on his/her bum. I think it is very possible that the dad was trying to protect his baby and is not really experienced in that type of situation.

I think that if you have a child who is tired/possessive/hitting (as age appropriate as that may be), you really need to be on top of your kid and keep him with you at all times (even for a quick run to the kitchen) because it is not fair to put the other parents in a position of having to defend their children from being hit/hurt. So I would chalk it up to a lesson learned and keep my ds closer to me at the next playdate.


ITA. Unfortuately my DS went through an agressive phase at around this age. He was not malicious, but he defintely hurt other kids just to see what reaction he could get. He once picked up a wooden hammer from a toy and hit another tot square on the head! He liked pushing over kids too.








He is a very "spirited" child to begin with. Anyway, I chose to stay with him during church nursery and had to keep a close eye on him at LLL meetings and the like. It was not fun and often he did hurt another child before I could intervene. Mostly I tried to teach him how to play nicely by modeling the behavior and of course tried to prevent any injuries. I really think he just wanted to play with the other kids, but didnt' know how to interact with them.
He outgrew the phase quickly, but I WAS very embarassed that my child was hurting other kids "on purpose." I know that as a mom I would be upset if my child got hammered on the head!

ETA: Likewise I would be really pissed if I saw an adult push my kid! But since that wasn't witnessed it's hard to say what really happened. If your DS is anything like mine, he might have just had his feelings hurt if the Dad was more stern with him than he's used to.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

If you are not in the room who is responsible for your son?

This to me is an important question because if YOU aren't there then every other adult in the room is going to be watching him instead of you, and though ideally they will act as you would act, you can't really rely on that unless you're paying them for their time. If you rely on another adult to use their own judgement in caring for your kid you can't be annoyed if they then do so.

If any child of 2+ hit my infant on the head (why was the brush not put away after the first hitting?) i would push them away. Does that make me right? Absolutely not. But it does make me honest. In the moment i wouldn't think or consider i would react, and MOST people react to their baby being injured swiftly and without much thought, otherwise the population would be much smaller.

You can report him if you want (not sure to whom or for what) but do you think he will learn "don't push toddlers" or "don't go to house of lady who prefers you allow her son to beat on the baby". You turned your back, and left your son to cope alone in the situation and him and every other adult to deal with that. It's not fair, it completely sucks for him, but it is a fairly natural consequence that he got out of his depth and suffered a little for it.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
You can report him if you want (not sure to whom or for what) but do you think he will learn "don't push toddlers" or "don't go to house of l*ady who prefers you allow her son to beat on the baby*". You turned your back, and left your son to cope alone in the situation and him and every other adult to deal with that. It's not fair, it completely sucks for him, but it is a fairly natural consequence that he got out of his depth and suffered a little for it.

That's kind of harsh. And I keep seeing these posts about the op's son "beating" and "pummeling" this baby. Where are you all getting that?

I just don't get the reasoning that if someone hits your child, it's ok to push them. How is that teaching either kid anything?


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## GoestoShow (Jul 15, 2009)

.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

I didn't say it was ok, i said it was what i'd do. Would you LET someone, of any age, hit your baby? Would you think "yowza" and push that person away or would you think "well, poor thing is tired and doesn't mean it, i'll ask him politely to stop" while your kid is screaming? I have seen a 2 year old hit a four month old and draw blood, just because you are 2 doesn't mean you can't inflict real harm, whether you meant to or not. In that situation i'm not trying to teach anyone's kid ANYTHING, i'm protecting my baby. Period.


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## Ofwait (Feb 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *New_Natural_Mom* 
Not to be rude, but why weren't you in there with your son? Keep in mind, DS is only 18 months and I have no other children, but if I had people at my house or DS was at a playdate somewhere else I would be in the room with him supervising. He is my child, I know him best, and I feel it would be my responsibility to supervise him. This way you could have intervened with any negative behavior (hitting etc.)

I have to say, I get very upset if another child pushes/hits DS. I get angry. Even if it is "age appropriate." If it happens I immediately separate the children and redirect DS to something else not involving the "hitter." I can see the dad's point of view. That said, it is never appropriate to push or yell at someone else's child (IMO).

What were the other moms doing?

This exactly... I have been in too many situations where other parents let their children pummel mine without ANY disapline at all. It drives me up the wall, I would bet that this father was extremely angry by your lack of action on the issue, in which case many many people are going to over react when protecting their children.

In my opinion you should have removed your child long before it went this far.

I would not say it is never apropriate to yell... when injury is imminent, it is.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
I didn't say it was ok, i said it was what i'd do. Would you LET someone, of any age, hit your baby? Would you think "yowza" and push that person away or would you think "well, poor thing is tired and doesn't mean it, i'll ask him politely to stop" while your kid is screaming? I have seen a 2 year old hit a four month old and draw blood, just because you are 2 doesn't mean you can't inflict real harm, whether you meant to or not. In that situation i'm not trying to teach anyone's kid ANYTHING, i'm protecting my baby. Period.

Nope. But if I'd seen a 2.5 year old heading towards my 1 year old with a brush, I probably would have intervened before any contact was made. And, no, I wouldn't push them away. But that's me, I guess.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoestoShow* 
None of us are advocating that as an acceptable reaction. We're simply stating that in the heat of the moment when OUR babies are being hit and possibly hard by what in the moment appears to be an uncontrollable toddler, reactions to protect OUR babies come out. We're stating that what happened between the dad and the OP's son isn't clear and could have been any number of things --- an accident, a gentle tug that caused him to lose his balance, picking up his daughter causing him to lose his balance, or possibly yes that he pushed the toddler. That last is certainly reprehensible, but there are ways the situation could have been prevented by not letting things escalate to that point.

But yet everyone thinks the op is overreacting because she is upset that someone pushed her child. She's just trying to protect her kid too.


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## shaykismama (Sep 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
A bunch of two and a half year olds need pretty constant supervision. Add a less than one year old to the mix and that only increases the need of adult "help" to make this go well.

Whatever he was having a hard time sharing should have been put away. If he is tired and not able to share something well and the other child is MUCH younger and smaller then you have to be right there. If you don't want another adult handling it (in a way that you don't agree with - which honestly I don't blame you as I don't agree with it either) then YOU need to be right there to handle it yourself. Leaving the situation to someone else means you are leaving it to them. I think both you and the dad hold responsibility in this situation.

Ok, at this point you REALLY need to be right next to him from here on out. He is sending really clear signals that he can't handle this situation without your help. And if my child hurts another child, tired or not, it is now my first responsibility to keep that from happening again. Not refilling another guest's tea is a lesser issue than a baby being hit for a second time. First time unfortunate but kids are kids. Second time is mom's fault and as the parent of the baby, I'd be really mad too.

I don't understand why you are in a different room when your two and a half year old has already hit a baby on the head with a brush. Dad is shouting because his baby is being pummelled.









Yes, a grown man should not push a two year old. But you didn't see what happened. Did he put his arm up to shield his baby from getting hit again and your ds lost his balance when he ran into it? Not knowing how big or coordinated your son is makes it hard to tell. If he was a ways away, there is no way to know if he was actually pushed or fell over and backed away when the dad got mad.

Yes, you are over reacting. You were wrong not to be there to help your son control himself. Reporting him is complete overkill IMO. I think group playdates with kids of this age requires close supervision. I'd expect apologies both directions in the situation you describe. They deserve one because you let your son hit their baby in the head with a brush not once but twice. You deserve one IF he actually pushed your ds. Next time just be there and the whole thing will be avoided.


I completely agree! I wouldn't have been upset the first time the child hit my baby, but you better believe I'd be upset if it happened again.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

I don't believe that everyone thinks he actually pushed her child.

If he did, then, let the fur fly.

But I think that many of us are thinking that there are many ways a toddler could have ended on the floor upset in a heated moment and was not actually pushed but fell over in the actions of an adult interveining.

Since the OP didn't see it, it is impossible to prove either way.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:

But yet everyone thinks the op is overreacting because she is upset that someone pushed her child. She's just trying to protect her kid too.
But he DID protect his kid, and she didn't because she wasn't there. She can't protect her son by reporting this man for pushing him when she wasn't there, after the event. She didn't protect her son, and i'm sure if that man DID push her son, if he hadn't done so he'd be feeling how she is now, horrible, because something happened to his kid and he wasn't there/didn't prevent it.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

I'm one to agree with other PP on the dad's perspective. My DD is only 4.5mo but our landlady's daughter has a 2yo who is totally out of control at any given time and she doesn't discipline at all. I don't like DD around him unless I am holding her because she was on the floor once and he got way too physical. I didn't shove him but I definitely separated him and he started to cry even though I only said no hitting and pulled his arm away (not hard at all)...His mom was in the room but didn't even seem to notice what he had done.

If someone elses kid is hurting my DD I would definitely be more concerned with my LO and while I wouldn't push another LO I would do what it took to separate them, I think any mom or dad would.


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## SweetPotato (Apr 29, 2006)

I think that both you and the dad were beling somewhat negligent for allowing the hitting to continue-- I agree with pps that you shouldn't have left him in the other room, and I feel equally strongly that the dad should have been monitoring things more closely after the first hit- especially since you had stepped into the other room. I also think that both of you have overreacted. My dd has always been a bit of a spitfire, and I spent many many playgorups during her 2-3 years hovering to try and intercept before conflicts got physical. If there were any parents in the group who I didn't trust to intervene gently, then I would not leave my child with them as the acting adult- especially if my child was already acting tired and cranky. I really think that we need to do our best to not set our kids up for bad behavior-- so after noting his mood and the first incident, both parents should have been on their toes to keep the two children seperated.


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

Two-year-olds seem HUGE to me right now. I know that when my baby is two, she'll seem like a little toddler. But right now, I would be really upset if a two-year-old hit her on the head with an object.
And I do think a two-year-old knows not to hit. They're learning but it's not as innocent as a baby hitting. A baby really has no idea.
I don't think the dad should have pushed but I understand why he was upset.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alyantavid* 
That's kind of harsh. And I keep seeing these posts about the op's son "beating" and "pummeling" this baby. Where are you all getting that?

I just don't get the reasoning that if someone hits your child, it's ok to push them. How is that teaching either kid anything?

I don't get where beating and pummeling are coming from, either. However, I also don't get where "it's ok to push them" came from. I didn't see anybody saying that it was ok. There's a huge continuum between "okay to push a child" and "report him", yk?

OP: I'd be very upset - a little angry, a little guilty and mostly just upset at the turmoil. I don't like the way the dad in the OP handled it, but I'm honestly even more bothered by the fact that he didn't let your ds apologize to the best of his ability than I am about the pushing. I can see the protective urge kicking in over that, even though it would make me really upset and concerned. The other part - not letting your son apologize - just seems really unnecessarily punitive. (Of course, I was pretty rough and tumble as a kid, and don't even remember injuries I know I received...except the bee sting on my foot...but I remember the times I felt shunned. I'm sure my memories affect my view of which was worse.)

However, I don't see what your dp wants to report him for, or who he wants to report to. This guy just sounds like he's not used to this. While hitting is very age appropriate, that doesn't mean that _all_ 2.5 year olds do it. (My sister and I are 18 months apart, and mom never had trouble with us being physical with each other - not at all.) It can be really scary to see a child who seems SO much bigger hitting your child, and he probably felt that you were just letting your ds do so. His reaction wasn't the greatest - not by a long shot. I just don't think it was report worthy.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexsam* 
I don't believe that everyone thinks he actually pushed her child.

If he did, then, let the fur fly.

But I think that many of us are thinking that there are many ways a toddler could have ended on the floor upset in a heated moment and was not actually pushed but fell over in the actions of an adult interveining.

Since the OP didn't see it, it is impossible to prove either way.

I do believe he did. What I _don't_ believe is that he pushed him hard. Even a little *nudge* backwards can cause my ds to stumble and fall, and he's turning 4 in Jan.

As others have said, the mother should have been in the room, esp since she knows her child gets this way when he's overtired. My thoughts are that if I'm not there to parent, my kids are essentially at the mercy of someone else's discipline. Not that I approve of all ways of discipline, but someone's got to do something in a situation like that. Just sitting there waiting for Mom to intervene doesn't accomplish much. And no one wants to tattle: "I took the brush away, mom, but I just want you to know that William tried to hit my baby again."

I suspect, like I said, the dad was ticked because he didn't see the boy reprimanded for his behavior, the OP didn't apologize for his behavior to the dad, and the OP left her son for a second time unattended so the "yelling" was probably not so much to express anger towards the boy, but disapproval towards the OP. Kinda like "Where the heck are you and why aren't you watching your son?"


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## Keria (Sep 27, 2008)

I think it's a HUUGE assumption that the dad pushed your son away, toddlers fall on their bottom a lot, especially if they are crying, the other day i put my laptop away because my niece kept banging on the keys and she sat on the floor and cried I didn't even touch her, I guess my brother could have accused me of hitting her going by the way she was crying, but luckily he trusts me and knows that I would never hit her. I personally cannot see a dad in playdate pushing your son in a malicious way. He was probably just separating the kids to protect his baby. I think you need to talk things out with him.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Well, this is what I don't get....

The OP hosted a playdate. There were three other adults in the room with the children, and not ONE of them would keep an eye on her kid while she played hostess? Really?

The little boy had already hit once, right? So....none of the adults were "on guard," so to speak? I know _*I*_ would have been observing the child while his mother left the room for a minute. Three adults in the room, and nobody was paying attention to the kids until after someone gets hurt?

Good grief....whatever happened to friends helping each other out?


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I don't get where beating and pummeling are coming from, either. However, I also don't get where "it's ok to push them" came from. I didn't see anybody saying that it was ok. There's a huge continuum between "okay to push a child" and "report him", yk?

I get that. I guess I'm just seeing an implication that somehow this boy deserved getting pushed because his mother wasn't supervising and that, at least some, of the pp here have said they'd naturally react that way if someone hit their child.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alyantavid* 
But yet everyone thinks the op is overreacting because she is upset that someone pushed her child. She's just trying to protect her kid too.

I don't hink she's over reacting by being upset, but I do think reporting him to the authorities is overreacting.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

Quote:

Well, if you want me to be entirely honest in this WWYD situation, I would have been apologetic (and embarrassed) that my 2.5 year old was hitting his baby over the head with a hairbrush and not allowed them to be alone without very close supervision, even for a second. I would feel understanding that he was angry and upset that his baby was being hit on the head. Since the push wasn't witnessed I don't think I could be angry about it--I agree that he could have been just trying to break them up.
I agree with this totally.

It sounds like it was a rotten day for everybody involved. But "the push" if there was one, was not witnessed (and I have a kid that will dramatically collapse and throw himself across the floor if you brush him accidentally







, so that's another possibility). You'd probably be laughed off if you did try to report it, since you have no evidence and since you would have to explain that your son had hit his kid on the head. The dad was protecting his kid and understandably angry. If he reacted in a way you didn't like (yelling), it may be that he was taken by surprise, or it may be that he doesn't know any other way. And you needed to keep your kid close after the first incident.

If it were me in this situation, I would apologize to the dad for my son hurting his daughter. I'd end the playdate immediately because everybody clearly needed time and space to cool way down.

While I totally, totally understand your emotions as a mother, and it sounds like the whole thing was just all around crappy, my perspective is that when I *know* my child has perpetrated an injury on someone else, or instigated a problem, leaving aside everyone else, it is unfair _to my child_ in the long run to give him the status of victim.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alyantavid* 
Nope. But if I'd seen a 2.5 year old heading towards my 1 year old with a brush, I probably would have intervened before any contact was made.

We don't even know if he saw it. He had _two_ kids there. Maybe something was going on with the older one.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:

my perspective is that when I *know* my child has perpetrated an injury on someone else, or instigated a problem, leaving aside everyone else, it is unfair to my child in the long run to give him the status of victim.








Fabulous!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quite a few people are saying that we don't know that the dad pushed the OP's son, but this was in her OP:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william* 
i have asked one of the mums whether the dad did push ds and that was confirmed.

The OP didn't see it, so she can't give an eyewitness account or anything, but the dad _did_ push her son. How much of a push, and whether he meant to knock him over, etc. - unknown. But, he did push him.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alyantavid* 
I get that. I guess I'm just seeing an implication that somehow this boy deserved getting pushed because his mother wasn't supervising and that, at least some, of the pp here have said they'd naturally react that way if someone hit their child.

Naturally reacting that way doesn't mean it's okay. I also naturally react by yelling when I'm angry but that doesn't make it okay. It's a poor reaction, but it's a human reaction nevertheless.

Of course the 2.5 year old didn't deserve to be pushed. But he DID deserve to be separated, and if the separation resulted in him being pushed back somehow, I have no issue with that. (It would still stink if it was your own kid, though). But if the dad just all-out pushed him with force - yeah, that's awful. Still, reporting him is over the top.

When someone's hurting your baby, even if that person is another child, it's hard to see straight and react correctly, ESP when that child's parents are gone from the room, you're left to deal with it by yourself, and it's a repeat offense.


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

I'll just say







to Kirsten.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *QueenOfTheMeadow* 
I don't hink she's over reacting by being upset, but I do think reporting him to the authorities is overreacting.

I completely agree that reporting is overreacting. As I said in my first post.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
We don't even know if he saw it. He had _two_ kids there. Maybe something was going on with the older one.

True. As I said, "IF" I had seen it coming, whether the parent was in the room or not, I would have stepped in.

Quote:

When someone's hurting your baby, even if that person is another child, it's hard to see straight and react correctly, ESP when that child's parents are gone from the room, you're left to deal with it by yourself, and it's a repeat offense
Ok, first of all, my children have been hurt by other kids. They've hurt other kids. My kids have been intentionally hurt by things and have also been the victims of biting phases. I guarantee I have never ever shoved a child away. Ever. You can separate kids without hurting either of them.

I want to make it clear what I said my original post. Yes, the op should have handled the entire playdate situation differently. The father of the 1 year old should have handled the whole thing differently. I don't think anyone is out of line for being upset. I do not think the father should be reported.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

If it's a regular play group I would send out an email establishing the rules as far as disciplining each others children. Because frankly, I would not have been cool with what you described.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alyantavid* 
Ok, first of all, my children have been hurt by other kids. They've hurt other kids. My kids have been intentionally hurt by things and have also been the victims of biting phases. I guarantee I have never ever shoved a child away. Ever.

That's wonderful that you can do this, but some people here (myself included) honestly said that they might push the child away in this situation. Not _shove_. No one ever said _shove_.

Quote:

You can separate kids without hurting either of them.
She never said her child had been _hurt_ by the "push" away from the baby.

Like I said, pushing is a poor reaction but still, it is a reaction that many might have. This dad obviously did. Doesn't make it right. But doesn't make him the worst person ever, either. He was just protecting his baby.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:

Ok, first of all, my children have been hurt by other kids. They've hurt other kids. My kids have been intentionally hurt by things and have also been the victims of biting phases. I guarantee I have never ever shoved a child away. Ever. You can separate kids without hurting either of them.
So you're a better person than me in these situations! Pushing isn't the right thing to do, but it is a normal thing to do, even if it's not normal for you. Many of us seem to have found ourselves just reacting (perhaps over-reacting) to someone hurting our baby without thinking about what is "possible" or "right", by simply pushing that person away from our child. When a friends kid dragged mine out of a toy car by her hair, i admit, i jumped right in and physically hauled him away from my DD. My hands were on him before i'd fully registered why she was crying - my instinct was THAT fast. My friend completely understood and as soon as she got to us (i was closer) i handed him straight to her, and we were both more vigilant for a few months.

Having said all that, i DO think it was unnecessary of the dad to refuse to let the OP's DS make up with his DD. I can understand he might have been mad and just wanting to leave, but he should have really let the little boy say sorry, preventing that is just totally cruel.

Overall i think this dad is probably on a learning curve. Inevitably it is never too long before our poor little sweetie is the one doing the hitting/biting/pushing and then he will realise how easily hese things happen.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
That's wonderful that you can do this, but some people here (myself included) honestly said that they might push the child away in this situation. Not _shove_. No one ever said _shove_.

She never said her child had been _hurt_ by the "push" away from the baby.

*Like I said, pushing is a poor reaction but still, it is a reaction that many might have. This dad obviously did. Doesn't make it right. But doesn't make him the worst person ever, either. He was just protecting his baby*.

The op never said "beat" or "pummel" either. And ok, I'll change my statement to " you can separate kids without making them cry."

As to the bolded part: I don't think he's the worst person. I simply understand why what he did would make the op so mad.


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## sleepingbeauty (Sep 1, 2007)

I think you did everything you should have done. When you talk to the mom, tell her why her DH is banned from the house. Hopefully, she'll understand.

I'd have killed someone if that were my child. You really have much more control than I do.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sleepingbeauty* 
I think you did everything you should have done. When you talk to the mom, tell her why her DH is banned from the house. Hopefully, she'll understand.

I'd have killed someone if that were my child. You really have much more control than I do.

Luckily you're not the mother of the baby, or her toddler would've been killed rather than pushed!


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2mygirl* 
Two-year-olds seem HUGE to me right now. I know that when my baby is two, she'll seem like a little toddler. But right now, I would be really upset if a two-year-old hit her on the head with an object.
And I do think a two-year-old knows not to hit. They're learning but it's not as innocent as a baby hitting. A baby really has no idea.
I don't think the dad should have pushed but I understand why he was upset.

A two year old has no impulse control, they are still quite a baby. I understand why the dad was upset though. If my DD can't play nice we leave. If we had another child over and my DD was rude I picked her up for awhile. I probably would have taken my child with me into the kitchen in this situation.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ssh* 
A two year old has no impulse control, they are still quite a baby. I understand why the dad was upset though. If my DD can't play nice we leave. If we had another child over and my DD was rude I picked her up for awhile. I probably would have taken my child with me into the kitchen in this situation.

In 4 months the kiddo will be 3. Maybe the dad was seeing him as VERY big, not just a "two year old baby." (Again, not that it makes his reaction right, but sometimes we don't react well when our babies are hit on purpose more than once.)


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

I was just saying if the 2 year old is tired and grumpy it's the adults responsibility to keep everyone safe. The 2 or even almost 3 year old is too impulsive.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

"Would you LET someone, of any age, hit your baby? Would you think "yowza" and push that person away or would you think "well, poor thing is tired and doesn't mean it, i'll ask him politely to stop" while your kid is screaming?"

Why on earth are these the only two choices?

From my years of toddler playdates, I've gleaned the following wisdom:

1. When the hostess is doing hostess duty, you keep an eye on her kid.
2. When a mama is nursing her baby, you keep an eye on her older kid.
3. The scariest/most difficult person in the room is NEVER one of the toddlers. It's a first time parent with a younger toddler who is still in permanent-crisis mode and can't be trusted not to crazily overreact to common problems like hitting. Instead of, you know, _taking away the hairbrush_, this person will freak out, get angry, cry, yell, and sometimes even be inappropriately physical with your kid. It's not an issue of malice, but of inexperience. You keep your very sharpest eye on THAT parent, because you can't trust them to be able to bring good parenting practice to a situation that you could handle in your sleep. They are still learning.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I would probably react badly if a two and a half year old were hitting my infant on the head too. So, I can't entirely blame him for knocking your son away.

I kinda think he feels a little bad about it though. I have done things in the heat of the moment that I later regret. I think it's ok to talk to him about it.


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## boheime (Oct 25, 2005)

I have three kids. My youngest went though a brief hitting phase and I shadowed him like a hawk, intervening before it would get to that. The rest of the time (with all three kids), we've been on the receiving end. I have never hit, pushed, yelled at, etc. another child because they hurt my child. My natural instinct is to protect my child, therefore I scoop them up and remove them from the situation. After they are safe, I would address the other child, varying what I say based on age appropriateness.

Yes, the OP should have been intervening (and protecting). However, that is no excuse for the father to yell at or push the child. He would not be invited back to my home.


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## fairymom (Sep 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie* 
"Would you LET someone, of any age, hit your baby? Would you think "yowza" and push that person away or would you think "well, poor thing is tired and doesn't mean it, i'll ask him politely to stop" while your kid is screaming?"

Why on earth are these the only two choices?

From my years of toddler playdates, I've gleaned the following wisdom:

1. When the hostess is doing hostess duty, you keep an eye on her kid.
2. When a mama is nursing her baby, you keep an eye on her older kid.
3. The scariest/most difficult person in the room is NEVER one of the toddlers. It's a first time parent with a younger toddler who is still in permanent-crisis mode and can't be trusted not to crazily overreact to common problems like hitting. Instead of, you know, _taking away the hairbrush_, this person will freak out, get angry, cry, yell, and sometimes even be inappropriately physical with your kid. It's not an issue of malice, but of inexperience. You keep your very sharpest eye on THAT parent, because you can't trust them to be able to bring good parenting practice to a situation that you could handle in your sleep. They are still learning.


















nak


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## alllyssa (Sep 1, 2004)

I think you are furious at the wrong person. I think it's easier for you to see your son as the victim rather than the aggressor in this situation. If you keep making excuses for your son, he will grow up to think that he can get away with anything.

All this energy that you are spending on blaming the father of the baby for making your son cry IS MISSING THE POINT! Your son hit a baby on the head with a hairbrush! Stopping your son by pushing him away is totally understandable. If the baby were mine, you would be the one unwelcome in the playgroup, not the dad.

You owe the father of the baby an apology. You should be sorry that you left your son unattended after you knew that he had already hit the baby with a brush once. I've got 6 kids and when I know that they are going thru this hitting/pushing stage I follow them around like a hawk or we don't go to places where they have to deal with other little ones. Live and learn,


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## luv-my-boys (Dec 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alyantavid* 
But yet everyone thinks the op is overreacting because she is upset that someone pushed her child. She's just trying to protect her kid too.

Than maybe she should have been in the room or ended the playdate early. I would be miffed as well if another child is clearly hitting my child even if its age appropriate and the parent of said child wasnt in the room or supervising him closely enough that it kept reoccuring.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie* 
"Would you LET someone, of any age, hit your baby? Would you think "yowza" and push that person away or would you think "well, poor thing is tired and doesn't mean it, i'll ask him politely to stop" while your kid is screaming?"

Why on earth are these the only two choices?

From my years of toddler playdates, I've gleaned the following wisdom:

1. When the hostess is doing hostess duty, you keep an eye on her kid.
2. When a mama is nursing her baby, you keep an eye on her older kid.
3. The scariest/most difficult person in the room is NEVER one of the toddlers. It's a first time parent with a younger toddler who is still in permanent-crisis mode and can't be trusted not to crazily overreact to common problems like hitting. Instead of, you know, _taking away the hairbrush_, this person will freak out, get angry, cry, yell, and sometimes even be inappropriately physical with your kid. It's not an issue of malice, but of inexperience. You keep your very sharpest eye on THAT parent, because you can't trust them to be able to bring good parenting practice to a situation that you could handle in your sleep. They are still learning.

YES! This is pretty much it as i have seen. I had one parent whose kid was waaaaay younger then the others and would sometimes get hurt - she FLIES off the handle about it. But when HER precious little angel does anything it is "developmentally appropriate"









I spent a full year (when dd was 2-3y/o) hating playgroup because instead of sitting chatting with the other moms i had to shadow dd to be sure she didnt pummel anyone. Sometimes she still got a swing in but never twice. I was always close enough to snatch her away. It sucked - i was "that mom" with "that kid" and it was embarrassing and tiring.

OP -
1 - yes, you should have supervised better. Take him with you to the kitchen, ask for help with the tea etc.
2 - I wouldnt want someone in my house who was not aware of normal toddler behavior and acceptable reactions.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alllyssa* 
I think you are furious at the wrong person. I think it's easier for you to see your son as the victim rather than the aggressor in this situation. If you keep making excuses for your son, he will grow up to think that he can get away with anything.

All this energy that you are spending on blaming the father of the baby for making your son cry IS MISSING THE POINT! Your son hit a baby on the head with a hairbrush! *Stopping your son by pushing him away is totally understandable.* If the baby were mine, you would be the one unwelcome in the playgroup, not the dad.

You owe the father of the baby an apology. You should be sorry that you left your son unattended after you knew that he had already hit the baby with a brush once. I've got 6 kids and when I know that they are going thru this hitting/pushing stage I follow them around like a hawk or we don't go to places where they have to deal with other little ones. Live and learn,

I really cannot believe that the bolded part is actually said on MDC. Hurting a child for any reason is not ok. Or understandable. The op did talk to her son. He's 2.5, what is she supposed to do, ground him?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luv-my-boys* 
Than maybe she should have been in the room or ended the playdate early. I would be miffed as well if another child is clearly hitting my child even if its age appropriate and the parent of said child wasnt in the room or supervising him closely enough that it kept reoccuring.

Well apparently, my friends and I are strange. We watch out for all the kids. If a mom steps out, for any reason, we keep an eye on her kids as well. I guess I'm more of a "it takes a village" person. I really doubt I'd spend much time with people if I couldn't trust my kid to be in the same room (with or without me) as them.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

I don't think the poster was implying that they would hurt the LO by pushing away. At least that is not how I read, I read that she is saying that she would move the LO away, not with the intent to hurt or make the LO fall.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

While I understand this guy was upset his baby got hit (twice), it sounds like he was being pretty hostile and quite immature...yelling, pushing, having to to state it was on purpose







, refusing to let the child properly apologize, leaving without saying goodbye to anyone even the other moms who had nothing to do with it. Pretty ridiculous behavior IMO.

The alleged push by itself could perhaps be explained away if it was not for everything else. I don't think I'd have him back. I'd probably try to have the playdate at a time the mom could be there the whole time.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alyantavid* 
Well apparently, my friends and I are strange. We watch out for all the kids. If a mom steps out, for any reason, we keep an eye on her kids as well. I guess I'm more of a "it takes a village" person. I really doubt I'd spend much time with people if I couldn't trust my kid to be in the same room (with or without me) as them.

Yeah, I guess we're a strange bunch around here too. We all feel comfortable enough with each other to leave the room to go to the kitchen for a second or to go to the bathroom. I'm having a hard time imagining a play date where people didn't. Would everyone take their kid to the bathroom with them or maybe just hold it? Count me out for that kind of get together.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
Yeah, I guess we're a strange bunch around here too. We all feel comfortable enough with each other to leave the room to go to the kitchen for a second or to go to the bathroom. I'm having a hard time imagining a play date where people didn't. Would everyone take their kid to the bathroom with them or maybe just hold it? Count me out for that kind of get together.

I can see what you're saying. But if I'm at a play date or having a playdate, and my child is tired and cranky and hitting other children, yes, I would take them with me. On a normal day, no.


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alllyssa* 
I think you are furious at the wrong person. I think it's easier for you to see your son as the victim rather than the aggressor in this situation. If you keep making excuses for your son, he will grow up to think that he can get away with anything.

All this energy that you are spending on blaming the father of the baby for making your son cry IS MISSING THE POINT! Your son hit a baby on the head with a hairbrush! Stopping your son by pushing him away is totally understandable. If the baby were mine, you would be the one unwelcome in the playgroup, not the dad.

You owe the father of the baby an apology. You should be sorry that you left your son unattended after you knew that he had already hit the baby with a brush once. I've got 6 kids and when I know that they are going thru this hitting/pushing stage I follow them around like a hawk or we don't go to places where they have to deal with other little ones. Live and learn,


Come on. Really? The mom of the toddler is the bad guy here?

Quote:

i was then in the kitchen making some cups of tea when i heard the dad say "NO you DONT hit!" in quite a stern voice. i turned round, as the baby girl wasnt crying and he had already given ds a verbal telling off i left it at that, just saying that i dont know where ds has got the hitting from. (he hit her on the head with the brush) i didnt see what happened so going by what the dad said.
Sounds like normal playgroup stuff going on here. Hostess is occupioed, hears another parent deal with an issue involving her son, no one is crying, she moves on. I think it is important to point out that the baby was not crying, so clearly she is not being pummled. perhaps it would have been wise for her to stop and join in the issue, but I am betting that since this was a playgroup among friends there is a certain comfort level here.

Quote:

later:
i am in the kitchen, putting stuff away after drinking the tea or something, mhy back is turned again.
Enough time passed for everone to get finish their tea and probably hang for a little before the following occurs, so I'm assuming at least 30 minutes.

Quote:

next thing i know, DS and baby girl (M) are screaming, crying their eyes out. i go in, confused, thinking ds hurt himself or something. the dad looks at me and *shouts* William just hit M over the head and it WASNT an ACCIDENT!!" I take a second to realize whats going on, M is sat next to her dad crying, DS over a metre away on the floor crying. i just *know* that the dad pushed him over/away.
i take ds upstairs, angry and upset at what has happened, take a few minutes to calm us both down, tell william that we must not hit, its not nice and hurts. i ask him to come back down with me to give M a kiss ot say sorry (he cant *say* sorry yet) so i go back down
Now something happens were both kids are "screaming, crying their eyes out". Baby is hurt, toddler is hurt. Daddy is shouting. This is were a HUGE line was crossed in my opinion. I will allow that parents make mistakes when in momma/daddy bear mode. More on that after the next quote.

Momma deals with her toddler while daddy deals with baby. Momma and toddler attempt to make amends because toddler was in the wrong.

Quote:

the dad is stood holding M, i walk over with DS, lift him up and say give M a kiss then. William looks across but the dad doesnt make any effort to lower M so that DS could say sorry, apart from kissing her bum / legs. he looks away after a while and buries his head in my shoulders and starts crying again, so i take him upstairs and say "lets get you to sleep" as i am upstairs i hear them talking downstiars and then leaving, the two mums calling bye but the dad saying nothing.
This is where thing fell apart. I would expect adult behavior from adults. Momma is dealing with crying toddler again, Daddy is acting like a toddler (maybe because he is a UAV, maybe because he in inexperinced and still in poppa bear mode.)

Everone, kids and adults, needed some space to calm down. I think mom of toddler needs to call and follow up. I think dad of baby needs to call and follow up.

Quote:

i have asked one of the mums whether the dad did push ds and that was confirmed.
Because of this, and the lack of follow up, I think the mom of the toddler is justified in being mad and no longer welcoming of the dad. No matter what the dad had going through his mind, the fact is he reacted to it by pushing a toddler hard enough to make him hurt and cry. I trust the momma to trust her instincts here. I would not trust him with my kid again.


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## SimonMom (May 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
While I understand this guy was upset his baby got hit (twice), it sounds like he was being pretty hostile and quite immature...yelling, pushing, having to to state it was on purpose







, refusing to let the child properly apologize, leaving without saying goodbye to anyone even the other moms who had nothing to do with it. Pretty ridiculous behavior IMO.

The alleged push by itself could perhaps be explained away if it was not for everything else. I don't think I'd have him back. I'd probably try to have the playdate at a time the mom could be there the whole time.

I bet he was upset and umcomfortable and embaressed. Remember, the OP was hiding up in a bedroom. That had to be awkward.

The way I picture this "push" from my experience with a determined toddler/preschooler is that maybe the OP's son was running or fixedly coming at the baby to get the brush, maybe multiple times, and the dad put out his hand or arm to stop him, and the 2 year old fell back. Remeber, the OP said the 2 year old was having a hard time with sharing his toys. I think its more than just these two instances upsetting the dad. Maybe the boy was making the whole time unpleasant for the baby.

My ds2 has often gone after one of his brothers and I have to put out my arm to stop him and he falls. My intent is not to make him fall, but it happens.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *QueenOfTheMeadow* 
I can see what you're saying. But if I'm at a play date or having a playdate, and my child is tired and cranky and hitting other children, yes, I would take them with me. On a normal day, no.

I can understand that. But before the big incident, the OP's kid had only hit the baby one time and not even hard enough to result in crying. It's not like he was going around whacking all the other kids and having a terrible time of it. To me, it really didn't sound like a situation that was bad enough to necessitate taking the kid to the kitchen with her to put up the dirty dishes. JMO. Apparently people have varying comfort levels about stuff like this.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SimonMom* 
I bet he was upset and umcomfortable and embaressed. Remember, the OP was hiding up in a bedroom. That had to be awkward.

I'd hardly call removing the child from the situation in order to calm him down and speak with him about what he had done "hiding." Maybe that is how the guy took it though which would just further solidify my opinion of him.


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## Ofwait (Feb 16, 2008)

I think it is fairly important to point out that there is only one side of story here....

I highly doubt that the father of more than one child one being a 2 1/2 year old would be this upset over what was discribed.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbbieB* 
Because of this, and the lack of follow up, I think the mom of the toddler is justified in being mad and no longer welcoming of the dad. No matter what the dad had going through his mind, the fact is he reacted to it by pushing a toddler hard enough to make him hurt and cry. I trust the momma to trust her instincts here. I would not trust him with my kid again.

Why are some of you saying that the dad here HURT the OP's son? She never said that. If anything, he was crying because he was scared that he had just been disciplined/yelled at by someone he didn't know very well.

Pushing an offending child away DOES NOT EQUAL hurting that child. It's not like he up and spanked him.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
Why are some of you saying that the dad here HURT the OP's son? She never said that. If anything, he was crying because he was scared that he had just been disciplined/yelled at by someone he didn't know very well.

Pushing an offending child away DOES NOT EQUAL hurting that child. It's not like he up and spanked him.

Yes I'm sure he was scared, having a grown man push him down. He wasn't discliplined by this guy, he was yelled at and pushed. Had this been any other situation a poster on MDC described, I'm sure there would be tons of angry posts about the horror of pushing and yelling at a child.

Whether he was physically hurt or emotionally hurt, he was hurt nonetheless. I don't think that because he might not have bruises, makes it any more ok.


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SimonMom* 
The way I picture this "push" from my experience with a determined toddler/preschooler is that maybe the OP's son was running or fixedly coming at the baby to get the brush, maybe multiple times, and the dad put out his hand or arm to stop him, and the 2 year old fell back. Remeber, the OP said the 2 year old was having a hard time with sharing his toys. I think its more than just these two instances upsetting the dad. Maybe the boy was making the whole time unpleasant for the baby.

My ds2 has often gone after one of his brothers and I have to put out my arm to stop him and he falls. My intent is not to make him fall, but it happens.

If you are reading it that way, I see your point. I did not read it that way at all. I got the picture of 2 isolated incidents, the second one ending with 2 screaming kids, one was bonked on the head, one was pushed so hard he fell back about a meter and a screaming BIG daddy.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
While I understand this guy was upset his baby got hit (twice), it sounds like he was being pretty hostile and quite immature...yelling, pushing, having to to state it was on purpose







, refusing to let the child properly apologize, leaving without saying goodbye to anyone even the other moms who had nothing to do with it. Pretty ridiculous behavior IMO.

The alleged push by itself could perhaps be explained away if it was not for everything else. I don't think I'd have him back. I'd probably try to have the playdate at a time the mom could be there the whole time.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I can understand that. But before the big incident, the OP's kid had only hit the baby one time and not even hard enough to result in crying. It's not like he was going around whacking all the other kids and having a terrible time if it. To me, it really didn't sound like a situation that was bad enough to necessitate taking the kid to the kitchen with her to put up the dirty dishes. JMO. Apparently people have varying comfort levels about stuff like this.

ITA

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
Why are some of you saying that the dad here HURT the OP's son? She never said that. If anything, he was crying because he was scared that he had just been disciplined/yelled at by someone he didn't know very well.

Pushing an offending child away DOES NOT EQUAL hurting that child. It's not like he up and spanked him.

I am trusting the momma to know the difference in her son's cry. She said this:

Quote:

next thing i know, DS and baby girl (M) are *screaming, crying their eyes out. i go in, confused, thinking ds hurt himself* or something. the dad looks at me and *shouts* William just hit M over the head and it WASNT an ACCIDENT!!" I take a second to realize whats going on, M is sat next to her dad crying, *DS over a metre away on the floor crying*. *i just *know* that the dad pushed him* over/away.
A later conversation with witnesses backs her up.

Quote:

i have asked one of the mums whether the dad did push ds and that was confirmed.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *a-sorta-fairytale* 
OP -
1 - yes, you should have supervised better. Take him with you to the kitchen, ask for help with the tea etc.
2 - I wouldnt want someone in my house who was not aware of normal toddler behavior and acceptable reactions.

Yes, exactly.

OP didn't ask how the situation could have been prevented and what she could do differently next time. Maybe she already has a clear idea about this and doesn't need our advice.

What she asked was what she should do now, and if her anger was appropriate given the situation.

So the Dad may have understandably and appropriately been protective of his daughter; no one wants their baby hit and he needed to act to protect her. And after seeing his daughter hit twice, maybe he was understandably and appropriately angry at the OP for not stepping in earlier or supervising her son. But to express himself the way he did to a two year old- totally over the line. He could have protected his daughter by moving her away. He could have yelled at the OP rather than her son. He could have left.

I get his anger, I'd have felt it too, but if that's how he acts when he's angry, I wouldn't want him around my children.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

I think the OP just needs to have a talk with the Dad and get things straight so the rest of us (myself included) can stop assuming what exactly happened.

Like another poster said, this is just one side of the story.

*The Dad might tell it like this:*

*"William hit *Jane* on the head with a wooden brush and his mother was nowhere to be found, so I told him no and to stop because that wasn't nice. I didn't scream but I guess I talked louder and firmer than his parents do because his mom didn't give me a very pleased look. She said he's started hitting people lately and she didn't know why.

Then she walked off later and William saw that she was gone and came back over and hit Jane on the head again while I was playing with my oldest, so hard that it really hurt, and as I started to grab Jane out of the way William tried to hit her again so I pushed him back a bit mid-swing so she wouldn't get hit again, but he stumbled and fell on his bottom. I know I scared him but I was worried about Jane and mad at this aggression, and again Mom was nowhere to be found.

Then when she did come, I told her William had done it one purpose so she wouldn't just brush it off like she seemed to earlier, but all she did was take him upstairs. I got no acknowledgment and Jane got no apology. She didn't express any concern that Jane was hurt....guess it was all my fault....

Then later she came down and I was both ticked and embarrassed, and didn't feel like responding. I know that was juvenile but I really felt like this Mom was putting it all on me, as though I was somehow to blame. Sorry, but if you know your child hits and you just leave him with others, you can't expect them to discipline like you would."*

Just offering another perspective since no one here, not even the OP, knows what REALLY happened unless the OP and this dad TALK.


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

oops double post


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
Well, this is what I don't get....

The OP hosted a playdate. There were three other adults in the room with the children, and not ONE of them would keep an eye on her kid while she played hostess? Really?

The little boy had already hit once, right? So....none of the adults were "on guard," so to speak? I know _*I*_ would have been observing the child while his mother left the room for a minute. Three adults in the room, and nobody was paying attention to the kids until after someone gets hurt?

Good grief....whatever happened to friends helping each other out?

Totally!


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bluegoat* 
It's hard to say. He might have been simply trying to break them up, and over-did it a bit. He may not have much experience refereeing children that way, and to him your son is a bigger boy whacking his daughter on the head.

It wasn't the right thing to do, but I would find it hard to judge how bad it was without knowing more about how the dad usually copes.

That is exactly what I thought.

No, it's not okay, but then... this may have been the first time he saw a large group of toddlers interacting.

I guess I'd talk with the mom and explain that she needs to go over the disciplining protocol with him if he's going to take the kids to playdates.

He probably just freaked out seeing his little girl hit. Again, it's NOT okay, and he needs to know that, but- it could have been a first-time, unplanned reaction that he feels bad about now.


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## cattmom (Apr 6, 2009)

I'm not sure you need to worry about inviting him back. When my daughter was about seven months and not walking, an 18 month old whacked her on the head with the hammer to his pounding bench for no reason of any kind in the middle of a neighborhood group playdate. His very nice mother was right there and apologized for him several times (he really wasn't an age to do it himself). I wasn't furious, but we didn't play together after that, because I knew that was where her son was at, and a few months later they moved. When my daughter was about 16 months and just up and toddling, a 2-3 year old boy at her music group was in a temper. He was on the floor as class was ending, and as she toddled by him he grabbed her leg to knock her over. I yelled a loud and angry 'Hey!' because it was all I could muster to stop him in that moment. I was really impressed by his mom's skills - she was on him in an instant, and had him apologize immediately. I kept a good eye on him in the classes after that, because, again, it was clear that that was where he was. If I were the Dad in this situation, I'd be thinking that your son was kind of a menace to littler kids right now, and that you were pretty indifferent to that. So why would I come by again?


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## elsie (Apr 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cattmom* 
I'm not sure you need to worry about inviting him back. When my daughter was about seven months and not walking, an 18 month old whacked her on the head with the hammer to his pounding bench for no reason of any kind in the middle of a neighborhood group playdate. His very nice mother was right there and apologized for him several times (he really wasn't an age to do it himself). I wasn't furious, but we didn't play together after that, because I knew that was where her son was at, and a few months later they moved. When my daughter was about 16 months and just up and toddling, a 2-3 year old boy at her music group was in a temper. He was on the floor as class was ending, and as she toddled by him he grabbed her leg to knock her over. I yelled a loud and angry 'Hey!' because it was all I could muster to stop him in that moment. I was really impressed by his mom's skills - she was on him in an instant, and had him apologize immediately. I kept a good eye on him in the classes after that, because, again, it was clear that that was where he was. If I were the Dad in this situation, I'd be thinking that your son was kind of a menace to littler kids right now, and that you were pretty indifferent to that. So why would I come by again?

I agree - you may not even need to worry about banning the dad from your house. I would not come back if your older son did that to my younger daughter. Things just happen too quickly at that age.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrawberryFields* 
Well, if you want me to be entirely honest in this WWYD situation, I would have been apologetic (and embarrassed) that my 2.5 year old was hitting his baby over the head with a hairbrush and not allowed them to be alone without very close supervision, even for a second.









: At least that's how I've seen other mamas handle it when Lina was the baby.

Wait, 3 adults? What on earth was the other mom doing?


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
The OP hosted a playdate. There were three other adults in the room with the children, and not ONE of them would keep an eye on her kid while she played hostess? Really?

While I think the other adults should've been more proactive, there is no "hostessing" when you've got a group of kids from 18months-3years. Especially not with a younger baby and a kid in the "mine!" *whack* phase.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
While I think the other adults should've been more proactive, there is no "hostessing" when you've got a group of kids from 18months-3years. Especially not with a younger baby and a kid in the "mine!" *whack* phase.

Really? Everyone at playgroups nowadays brings their own drinks and never uses the bathroom? Wow.

A small group of children should not be that difficult to keep an eye on when there are *four* adults nearby. Somehow, home-daycare providers manage to keep things orderly.

Of course, toddlers hit and will be hit by others. I understand being upset when your baby gets hit, but really....the level of outrage I'm perceiving from this thread just astounds me. It's not as though someone lost a limb or had an eye poked out.


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## not now (Mar 12, 2007)

The first thing that popped in my head was the dad either sticking and arm out to block the toddler or pushed him back slowly. By slowly I mean he had his hand on the child the entire time. I've separated a toddler and my son by putting my hand on the toddlers chest and pushing/leading him back trying to create space between them. Not a forceful push but more of a "this is the direction you're going now" push. I don't know if that's clear or not but I could totally see a tired toddler falling down if he's trying to go one way and an adult is leading him the opposite direction.

As the other mom how hard of a push it was, ask the dad or leave it


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alyantavid* 
That's kind of harsh. And I keep seeing these posts about the op's son "beating" and "pummeling" this baby. Where are you all getting that?

A baby (OP said "younger than one") was hit TWICE on the head with a hairbrush by a child almost three times her age. That is where we are getting that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbbieB* 
perhaps it would have been wise for her to stop and join in the issue, but I am betting that since this was a playgroup among friends there is a certain comfort level here.

Perhaps it would have been wise for her to stop doing dishes and watch her child who had already once hit a baby... I definitely agree. But whether we are talking about children of my siblings, my lifelong childhood friends or complete strangers, I have NO comfort level with regards to a BABY being HIT WITH A HAIRBRUSH - repeatedly.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbbieB*
the fact is he reacted to it by pushing a toddler hard enough to make him hurt and cry.

That is NOT the "fact" of it; the OP wasn't even in the room and she is the one reporting this information. She is emotional about her child, and she is interpreting what the other moms said - moms who I assume are her friends and are siding with her. She is on the defensive as her child hurt a baby, and her husband is in "let's call the police" mode. We have one side of the story.

We do NOT know he pushed her child. We do know that her child hit his baby for the second time and he responded by removing them from each other. Did the OP's son get knocked over, fall over, lose his balance, run as dad put his arm up to protect his dd? Push him AWAY from baby is not the same as push him DOWN. And the OP's son could easily have been crying because he was afraid of the dad's anger (which is understandable given the situation - though of course he could have handled it better) and not because he was actually hurt and/or pushed.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
Why are some of you saying that the dad here HURT the OP's son? She never said that. If anything, he was crying because he was scared that he had just been disciplined/yelled at by someone he didn't know very well.

Pushing an offending child away DOES NOT EQUAL hurting that child. It's not like he up and spanked him.

Thank you!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cattmom* 
I'm not sure you need to worry about inviting him back. If I were the Dad in this situation, I'd be thinking that your son was kind of a menace to littler kids right now, and that you were pretty indifferent to that. So why would I come by again?

Exactly. I'm pretty sure there is no need to ban this dad from your house; I'd be shocked if he came back.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Honestly, I would not want him around because it sounds like the father, instead of looking at this from a point of developmental age and how he can handle it in a positive manner, got angry at your child. Of course we get upset when other children hurt our children, and we want teach our children how to treat each other, but it sounds like the father was seeing it from a more adult view of motivation and effect. Not that your son might not have fallen down if the father tried to separate the children, but some people don't have the ability to feel the same compassion and understanding for other people's children as they do for their own and they may not take the same care. It's hard to feel that way, it's probably normal, but still, it would concern me.

My husband completely disagrees with me and we just had a little argument. He said, "Eff that, I'm not saying the kid is evil, but if he's hurting my daughter, I'm going to stop him and I won't care if he falls down in the process." I told him that I think that's wrong, that as the adult he has much more responsibility to be gentle, but he disagrees. Oh well, it's not like my husband would ever take kids to a playdate anyway--I think monkeys would fly first.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie* 
"Would you LET someone, of any age, hit your baby? Would you think "yowza" and push that person away or would you think "well, poor thing is tired and doesn't mean it, i'll ask him politely to stop" while your kid is screaming?"

Why on earth are these the only two choices?

From my years of toddler playdates, I've gleaned the following wisdom:

1. When the hostess is doing hostess duty, you keep an eye on her kid.
2. When a mama is nursing her baby, you keep an eye on her older kid.
3. The scariest/most difficult person in the room is NEVER one of the toddlers. It's a first time parent with a younger toddler who is still in permanent-crisis mode and can't be trusted not to crazily overreact to common problems like hitting. Instead of, you know, _taking away the hairbrush_, this person will freak out, get angry, cry, yell, and sometimes even be inappropriately physical with your kid. It's not an issue of malice, but of inexperience. You keep your very sharpest eye on THAT parent, because you can't trust them to be able to bring good parenting practice to a situation that you could handle in your sleep. They are still learning.

Yes. Exactly. It's called age-appropriate behaviour. Thankyou.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
Why are some of you saying that the dad here HURT the OP's son? She never said that. If anything, he was crying because he was scared that he had just been disciplined/yelled at by someone he didn't know very well.

Pushing an offending child away DOES NOT EQUAL hurting that child. It's not like he up and spanked him.

So a child is lying on his back, screaming with "that cry", there's an out of control adult here and nobody's been hurt.







: Riiiiight. Not spanking=/= not hurt.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viola* 
Honestly, I would not want him around because it sounds like the father, instead of looking at this from a point of developmental age and how he can handle it in a positive manner, got angry at your child. Of course we get upset when other children hurt our children, and we want teach our children how to treat each other, but it sounds like the father was seeing it from a more adult view of motivation and effect. Not that your son might not have fallen down if the father tried to separate the children, but some people don't have the ability to feel the same compassion and understanding for other people's children as they do for their own and they may not take the same care. It's hard to feel that way, it's probably normal, but still, it would concern me.

My husband completely disagrees with me and we just had a little argument. He said, "Eff that, I'm not saying the kid is evil, but if he's hurting my daughter, I'm going to stop him and I won't care if he falls down in the process." I told him that I think that's wrong, that as the adult he has much more responsibility to be gentle, but he disagrees. Oh well, it's not like my husband would ever take kids to a playdate anyway--I think monkeys would fly first.

Yup. Exactly. The 2yo is being treated as if he has adult motivation, understanding and verbal facilities. He's 2; therefore almost certainly doesn't. I'm pretty sure that your DH's thinking is what was going through this chap's head at the time.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie* 
The scariest/most difficult person in the room is NEVER one of the toddlers. *It's a first time parent with a younger toddler* who is still in permanent-crisis mode *and can't be trusted not to crazily overreact to common problems* like hitting. Instead of, you know, _taking away the hairbrush_, this person will freak out, get angry, cry, yell, and sometimes even be inappropriately physical with your kid. It's not an issue of malice, but of inexperience. You keep your very sharpest eye on THAT parent, because you can't trust them to be able to bring good parenting practice to a situation that you could handle in your sleep. They are still learning.

I think it's a little ridiculous to stereotype first time parents as being untrustworthy simply because they lack the experience of parents who have more/older children. I think it has more to do with common sense than it does experience.

And I really loath the notion that people are keeping an eye on me in case I "crazily over react, freak out, and get inappropriately physical" with someone's kid all because I only have one child who is young. I mean, seriously? People who act like that don't do so out of inexperience. I'd venture to guess it has a lot more to do with social skills, their upbringing, common sense, a lack of problem solving skills, or, you know, just a general anger problem.









I have one child who is 3.5 and I can assure you that my "inexperience" has yet to result in me crazily over reacting, crying, yelling, getting angry, freaking out, or becoming _inappropriately physical_ with someone else's child. Your post is insulting.


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## petra_william (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I think it's a little ridiculous to stereotype first time parents as being untrustworthy simply because they lack the experience of parents who have more/older children. I think it has more to do with common sense than it does experience.

And I really loath the notion that people are keeping an eye on me in case I "crazily over react, freak out, and get inappropriately physical" with someone's kid all because I only have one child who is young. I mean, seriously? People who act like that don't do so out of inexperience. I'd venture to guess it has a lot more to do with social skills, their upbringing, common sense, a lack of problem solving skills, or, you know, just a general anger problem.









I have one child who is 3.5 and I can assure you that my "inexperience" has yet to result in me crazily over reacting, crying, yelling, getting angry, freaking out, or becoming _inappropriately physical_ with someone else's child. Your post is insulting.

hes not a first time dad, his older daughter is the same age as william. the baby is a big 11month old and i adore her. of course it was wrong of ds to hit her but at least he, unlike the dad, was willing to apologize.

as for *how* ds hit (not making excuses, just trying to clarify) ... typically he will be playing quite calmly and then literally out of nowherehe will hit or push. just the once, kind of like waiting to see what reaction he would get iyswim. he doesnt go angry and start yelling or anything and start pummeling again and again, it is literally just one hit and then he waits...this makes it extremely difficult for anyone to intervene as its so unpredictable.







WHY he does it? no idea... i am thinking there are a few issues atm... he is at the same stage, where it comes to speech development as what the girls were about a year ago when they were going through the hitting/scratching stage. whether that is linked? i dont know, but it could be? iam also 4 1/2months pregnant and although ds still nurses 2 or 3 times daily he isnt getting any milk anymore, justa few drops of colostrum... i dont know whether this is frustrating him... he hasnt got the verbal skills to communicate his feelings on that.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

Yup, it's developmental, and borne from frustration.

Having read the OP, my love, you have no choice but to become a hoverer for a few weeks or months. Stay on top of him at all times ready to intervene, and either don't host playgroups or get someone else to make the tea. Otherwise the two of you are going to get "that" reputation, him for hitting and you for not caring. If it's a one-off bad day, that seems fair enough, but if he's making a habit of it then he does need you to be within arms reach and watching all the time







And no, I don't think breastmilk is relevant. It's a normal developmental phase, most kids go through it- some hit more than others.

There are other things you could try as well. Try getting him in contact with other families with bigger kids, particularly boys. I've found that my younger two are less likely to hit than my big two were because they can copy their brohters problem resolution strategies, and in particular are better at walking away from lose-lose situations- and small boys, IME, like big boys. Also, if it's a girl-heavy group, this may be the time that you need to move away and find more little boys for him to play with. One of the reasons he's been judged so harshly is probably because of his gender, unfair though that is.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william* 
hes not a first time dad, his older daughter is the same age as william. the baby is a big 11month old and i adore her. of course it was wrong of ds to hit her but at least he, unlike the dad, was willing to apologize.

I think the Smithie's point was to illustrate that when toddlers get together there's a certain element of age appropriate behavior, and that sometimes parents don't deal with things like hitting in a very constructive way. And that perhaps your friend's husband, or any of the adults actually, including you, were more likely to "blame" than your 2.5 year old because the obvious solution was to take away the hitting object from a child who was showing an interesting in using it to hit, or just being on top of him after the first hit to intervene in case it happened again.

However, her diatribe about parents of young children lacking experience being the main reason they "crazily over react, get angry, yell, cry, and act inappropriately physical with other people's children" is total BS. People don't act that way because they're inexperienced parents. They act that way because they have a screw loose.

Perhaps she was being sarcastic and overly dramatic to make a point, but I generally abhor the concept that new parents/parents of young children are inferior to parents of older multiple children as a matter of default. She basically said to keep an eye on new parents of young children because they can't be trusted to parent their kids and might go crazy, yell, and act inappropriately physical with other people's children, which is absolutely ridiculous. That's pretty insulting as the parent of an only 3.5 year old.

When I go to the park or on play dates I don't hone in on who has the least parenting experience and youngest kid because they're untrustworthy and might yell, cry, get angry, crazily over react or become inappropriately physical. What a completely judgmental and bizarre thing to say.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Having read your update, this sounds like a family you're better off not having at playgroups. She was crying because a 2.5 year old hit her 2.5 year old??? (It sounds like you handled that incident perfectly, BTW.) Parenthood is gonna be really tough for them, I think!

Enjoy your other friends and know that this stage for your son will pass. It did for my DD at about 2 3/4.


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## ernalala (Mar 30, 2008)

I believe all parties involved her are 'to blame' for what went wrong and may have done things differently before AND after the incident and even just have had a different approach from the beginning. To take it as far as reporting for abuse, is ridiculous imo (sorry if you do not agree with that) and to have the whole issue escalate like that over small kids who are in certain phases and have (age appropriate) difficulty with sharing and impulses and are not aware yet of what hurting someone else really means nor what apologies or acknowledgement of others' feelings really mean and then adults not being able to deal with it in an adult way. A lot has been said now and I'm afraid the friendship is already spoiled







. But there may be a tiny chance all parties involved may come to their senses and apologise for the way things went (wrong) and promise to deal with it better in the future. End of story. None seemed to feel validated here. There was a huge communication dysfunction. Noone else dared to step in to try to help solve the issue, which is sad in itself, too.
It was ONE incident and I do not think you had serious problems between you as parents or between the children, only toddler behaviour to worry about.

Seriously, I once had my BIL slap my 5yo in the face







because my 5yo had suddenly attacked him in the crotch







. And, how much he was sorry for his reflex reaction, and he immediately confessed and apologised to ds and to me and dh, (and my ds, tbh, was not even very upset, luckily), I could understand HOW it happened. Would wish it hadn't, but it did. But then we explained my son what happened here too, and I told my BIL that of course I was not happy about his reaction, but that I could understand, since if ANYONE, I mean ANYONE would go for my own private parts and took me by surprise like that , I would most likely have a similar reflex reaction. We then dealt with it as adults and forgot about it. Ds included. Now you may all flame my BIL but I won't, nor does ds or dh or my sister for the matter.


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## petra_william (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ernalala* 
I believe all parties involved her are 'to blame' for what went wrong and may have done things differently before AND after the incident and even just have had a different approach from the beginning. To take it as far as reporting for abuse, is ridiculous imo (sorry if you do not agree with that) and to have the whole issue escalate like that over small kids who are in certain phases and have (age appropriate) difficulty with sharing and impulses and are not aware yet of what hurting someone else really means nor what apologies or acknowledgement of others' feelings really mean and then adults not being able to deal with it in an adult way. A lot has been said now and I'm afraid the friendship is already spoiled







. But there may be a tiny chance all parties involved may come to their senses and apologise for the way things went (wrong) and promise to deal with it better in the future. End of story. None seemed to feel validated here. There was a huge communication dysfunction. Noone else dared to step in to try to help solve the issue, which is sad in itself, too.
It was ONE incident and I do not think you had serious problems between you as parents or between the children, only toddler behaviour to worry about.

Seriously, I once had my BIL slap my 5yo in the face







because my 5yo had suddenly attacked him in the crotch







. *And, how much he was sorry for his reflex reaction, and he immediately confessed and apologised to ds and to me and dh,* (and my ds, tbh, was not even very upset, luckily), I could understand HOW it happened. Would wish it hadn't, but it did. But then we explained my son what happened here too, and I told my BIL that of course I was not happy about his reaction, but that I could understand, since if ANYONE, I mean ANYONE would go for my own private parts and took me by surprise like that , I would most likely have a similar reflex reaction. We then dealt with it as adults and forgot about it. Ds included. Now you may all flame my BIL but I won't, nor does ds or dh or my sister for the matter.

i still havent had an apology


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william* 
i still havent had an apology

have you apologized yourself because frankly I think that is warranted too.


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## ernalala (Mar 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ldavis24* 
have you apologized yourself because frankly I think that is warranted too.

That's what I meant. One of the parties here should start acting like the adult and do an attempt to apologise for how things went. Whom this is, doesn't really matter. It's about the first step being important to solve the issue, the sooner the better. If you do want to resolve this without a worse fight, please take away your pride and anger and talk to them don't wait until they will. If you all start to be reasonable again you CAN work this out without loosing your calm. Try to understand each other's standpoint more. Being stubborn may only get matters worse (with the pending complaint MUCH MUCH worse).


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## petra_william (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ldavis24* 
have you apologized yourself because frankly I think that is warranted too.

i have yes, and ds wanted to too


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william* 
i have yes, and ds wanted to too

I know you tried right after the incident but things were obviously too heated still for the father to even be listening apparently. I mean have you tried again now that things have calmed down. I do think he owes you and your son an apology but I also think that if he isn't going to do it you should open that door by apologizing yourself. Then again I suck at apologies so I can't judge anyone for that!


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Seems some folks have some mighty high expectations of two year olds. I can't imagine never returning to a playgroup because my one year old got hit by a two year old even if the mom was in the kitchen or wherever. And expecting more of an apology than the mom trying to facilitate one from the offending child (which was pretty much rejected by the dad in this case)? That just dumbfounds me. Does it need to be a handwritten formal apology or what? Just wondering in case I'm ever in the OPs situation. My son is pretty feisty, so I'm imagining this could be an issue for us later on. My daughter thankfully never went through a hitting phase...well until recently, but at least it's just her brother







.


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## mummy2jess (Nov 7, 2006)

I think that you are being a little unreasonable in the strength of your reaction about this. He obviously didnt push your son that hard, he is a largish fully grown man if he had intentionally pushed your son he would have been doing alot more than crying - he would have been seriously hurt. He probably just pushed him enough to stop him hitting his little girl again. Perhaps it was enough to make your son fall back but I doubt it was intentionally meant to do that.

I am not an inexperienced parent (I have three) but if a nearly 3 year old hit my baby on the head with a hair brush (even a toddler can hit hard enough to harm a baby this age) I would also stop them and if a child is raising his hand to hit your baby you dont stop and take time to think about the pros and cons of different techniques to stop them you do whatever you need to stop that hairbrush falling on your childs head!.

You need to be right next to your child when he is playing near a baby and he certainly should not be allowed to play with things like hair brushes near a young baby. If he cant be trusted with things he shouldnt have them. He will soon learn to play nicely when he is limited only to soft toys. Trust me I have an ex hitter









forgot to add i think both parties need to get over this and move on with life!

sophie


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## Spirit Dancer (Dec 11, 2006)

Having a rowdy 3 yo boy and an easygoing 1 yr old dd I can definitely see the dad's point of view. I could see myself pushing a child over of they tried to hit my dd with a hard object. Not to punish the hitter but to protect my dd.
Also if a toddler just hit my dd in the head then his mom brought him over to kiss her sorry I would NOT turn her face to him on the off chance he hit her again.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

OP, this guy is not a first-time parent, but from your original post it sounded to me like he has not been the primary caregiver, the one attending the playdates, all along. So he missed being on the other end of this phase with his first dd, right?

North of 60 wrote:

"And I really loath the notion that people are keeping an eye on me in case I "crazily over react, freak out, and get inappropriately physical" with someone's kid all because I only have one child who is young."

If I knew you in real life, I'm sure I wouldn't be watching you like a hawk. For one thing, you have a 3.5 year old, not a year old baby who you have just started bringing to playdates.

But frankly, I think _your_ generalization (that inexperienced parents who fail to use handle routine toddler herding effectively "have a screw loose") is way more insulting and way less useful than my framing. This stuff is not that easy, especially in our culture that does not exactly train people in gentle ways to handle ANYTHING, much less parenting! It's been my experience that the playdate mama who is a nerve-wracking cross to bear when her child is 1 can end up being a pleasure to be around a year later - because her child has spent that year teaching her how toddlers act and what works/doesn't work in terms of redirection and discipline, and she has been wise enough to receive that knowledge and chill out.

I'd hate to think that the skill set and attitude I started with when my youngest was 1 was the skill and and attitude that I need to rely on to parent him successfully through high school. The learning curve is infinite, I hope!


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## accountclosed2 (May 28, 2007)

DD is 19 months, and at the time usually the eldest when we met other kids. Before we moved here in July she was usually one of the youngest.

If/when one of the older kids hit or played roughly with DD I'd *pick her up*. To me that would be the immediate reaction. My DD is hurt, she needs me, I need to protect her. I don't need to deal with the other child at all (at that point). The children are small. If I pick up DD none of them can reach her and she is safe.

And at a playdate in someone elses home, of course I'd keep an eye on my friends' children if they are out of the room - just as I'd expect them to keep an eye on DD for me. And if, say J(2,5y) was hurting or attempting to wack either DD or his little sister (6 m), I'd simply remove whatever he used to hit them with. I'd comfort DD (or his sister) in my arms, and suggest he showed us his new train track (this actually happend back in May-June, when J _was_ going through a hitting phase).

I am very protective of DD, but I don't expect little children to behave like little angels. It is my job to protect her, and I can't make certain no other child will try to hurt her. But I can try to prevent it as it is happening, and I can remove her from the situation and comfort her.

DD hasn't started hitting other children yet, she's still at this stage where she's more likely to hurt them by hugging to hard, pulling non-walking crawlers along (to "help" them walk) or knock them over because she's so happy to see them, and they are just too unsteady to cope. I still apologize to the mothers, and ask DD to be gentle with the babies.


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## Spirit Dancer (Dec 11, 2006)

OP, I just read your update and I mean this in the kindest way possible but you and your dp are WAY WAY WAY overreacting. I mean honestly it is not that big of deal. Your ds is OK right (except the poor baby STILL has a mark?)? Even grown-ups, police or not, can overreact in the heat of the moment especially when defending their young. Most likely he gave your son a mild push to get him away from his daughter. Not the best response but for the love of sanity NOT that big of deal.

ALso don't worry I am sure he will not be coming back to your house after all this and I doubt his wife either. I would not either.


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## fairymom (Sep 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viola* 
Honestly, I would not want him around because it sounds like the father, instead of looking at this from a point of developmental age and how he can handle it in a positive manner, got angry at your child. Of course we get upset when other children hurt our children, and we want teach our children how to treat each other, but it sounds like the father was seeing it from a more adult view of motivation and effect. Not that your son might not have fallen down if the father tried to separate the children, but some people don't have the ability to feel the same compassion and understanding for other people's children as they do for their own and they may not take the same care. It's hard to feel that way, it's probably normal, but still, it would concern me.

My husband completely disagrees with me and we just had a little argument. He said, "Eff that, I'm not saying the kid is evil, but if he's hurting my daughter, I'm going to stop him and I won't care if he falls down in the process." I told him that I think that's wrong, that as the adult he has much more responsibility to be gentle, but he disagrees. Oh well, it's not like my husband would ever take kids to a playdate anyway--I think monkeys would fly first.


I had my DH read this also- to see his OP. All he really had to say was this is why dads don't go to playgroups







. I think it comes down to the way dads handle kids compared to moms (NOT saying they are wrong but do it differently-please don't flame me).

My OP- why wasn't the offending brush put up for the duration of the day? Why was he able to get a hold of it again?

Instead of making it her fault (she was not watching her child well enough) why not ask or think about why dad didn't leave (this was her house so its not like she can go anywhere) if it was stressing him out so bad (this is what I would've done)? I think everyone in the house was in the wrong here (yup even the "friends") and I have a real hard time EVER having them over again.

Sounds like everyone was inexperienced in playgroups and children.


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## alfabetsoup (Jun 13, 2005)

OP, I think you and your DH are overreacting. The other dad should absolutely not have pushed your son, but I can see why they are angry with you. There was a very aggressive boy in my group of friends and he seemed to single out my dd. I got really fed up with his mom's blase attitude toward the hitting and stopped seeing them.

Also, do you get upset when anyone corrects your child, even gently? Because that may be why none of the other moms did anything.

Hitting and rough play IS developmentally appropriate, but that does NOT MEAN IT IS OK. I understand why DD1 hits DD2 but I don't allow it! It sounds like this isn't the first time your DS has hit anyone and I think you need to watch him much more closely in future or you will lose these friends.


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## beckyand3littlemonsters (Sep 16, 2006)

i'm shocked by how many people here think it's ok to push a 2yr old, yes it wasn't nice for him to hit the baby on the head but that still doesn't justify what the dad did imo.


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## plantmama (Jun 24, 2005)

I just wanted to repeat what others have said that it hardly takes any contact for a 2 y/o to literally go flying. I've just held out a hand to prevent my kids from ramming into each other and have been surprised at how easily they uh, tip over








I would still have been VERY upset at the whole situation and aside from your dh wanting to report the dad you seem to be trying to take care of it in a really good way.
At our playgroups people are pretty good at standing in for each other. It would have been better if you had firmly taken the hair brush away or kept your ds with you, but man, you can't always think of everything and be on top of every situation. The dad should have left when he started to get upset at how the situation was playing out instead of yelling.
In this case, I wonder if the other moms who were present might be good to talk to and get some perspective.

Fwiw, I had a similar situation happen. Ds (who REALLY should know better he's 5) threw some sand at the park (I was reading on a bench so yeah, not really with it







) and the dad of a little boy near ds ran up yelled "no!" and GRABBED ds's arm! I was livid, but just told the kids we had to leave. An out of control adult is WAY scarier than an out of control kid. I should have said "I'm sorry that my ds threw sand but it is uncalled for for you to grab him." So hard to react appropriately at every moment.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spirit Dancer* 
OP, I just read your update and I mean this in the kindest way possible but you and your dp are WAY WAY WAY overreacting. I mean honestly it is not that big of deal. *Your ds is OK right (except the poor baby STILL has a mark?)?* Even grown-ups, police or not, can overreact in the heat of the moment especially when defending their young. Most likely he gave your son a mild push to get him away from his daughter. Not the best response but for the love of sanity NOT that big of deal.

ALso don't worry I am sure he will not be coming back to your house after all this and I doubt his wife either. I would not either.

I just can't get this. Since the op's son didn't have a mark, he's perfectly fine and obviously wasn't hurt? Why is it understandable that the dad pushed a 2 year old to protect his child, but not ok that the op and her dh are upset that their 2 year old was pushed down by a yelling, angry adult?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beckyand3littlemonsters* 
i'm shocked by how many people here think it's ok to push a 2yr old, yes it wasn't nice for him to hit the baby on the head but that still doesn't justify what the dad did imo.

Me too.


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## Keria (Sep 27, 2008)

Holy over reaction, If he pushed him it was to protect his daughter and to make some space between them , I'm sure it wasn't an I'm going to hit this boy because he hit my baby, this baby has a mark on her head that your son made. Personally if your child is in a hitting stage I would keep the playdates to a minimum unless you can be with him 100% of the time. I think you need to calm down, apologize to this family and stay away form each other for a while.

ETA: It's not Ok to push a 2yo, but it sounds like the kids needed to be separated and he pushed him out of the way to keep his DD from getting hit more. Sometimes you have to act in a split second and you can't sit to think what would be the gentlest way to act when your baby is getting hurt.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

OP, I just read your update. It's interesting that you mentioned that something had happened previously that you were not aware of. I had wondered earlier if that might be the case because that might have helped explain the dad's over the top behavior (not excuse it by any stretch, but explain it).

At this point, I think everyone involved, particularly your husband, might be overreacting and needs to take a step back and regroup. It sounds to me like there is real lack of good communication in this group and some profoundly different expectations and parenting styles.

Personally, I would think about trying to smooth things over with this mom and dad somehow if possible just to keep the peace and be a mature grown up and all that, but definitely not do a playdate with them again (which it sounds highly unlikely they would interested anyway). I wouldn't want to meet up with people who got mad about my child's behavior but rather then come to me and discuss it chose to hold on to that anger and let it fester. I can't imagine getting this angry over another child hitting mine but then not giving the parent an opportunity to correct the situation.


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## New_Natural_Mom (Dec 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viola* 
My husband completely disagrees with me and we just had a little argument. He said, "Eff that, I'm not saying the kid is evil, but if he's hurting my daughter, I'm going to stop him and I won't care if he falls down in the process." I told him that I think that's wrong, that as the adult he has much more responsibility to be gentle, but he disagrees. *Oh well, it's not like my husband would ever take kids to a playdate anyway--I think monkeys would fly first.*


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## Sk8ermaiden (Feb 13, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viola* 
My husband completely disagrees with me and we just had a little argument. He said, "Eff that, I'm not saying the kid is evil, but if he's hurting my daughter, I'm going to stop him and I won't care if he falls down in the process." I told him that I think that's wrong, that as the adult he has much more responsibility to be gentle, but he disagrees. Oh well, it's not like my husband would ever take kids to a playdate anyway--I think monkeys would fly first.

My husband said the same thing - he probably wouldn't yell at the child, but he would prevent the child from coming close to DD again, and if he fell down in the process, too bad.

We also both agree that if out child was in a phase of hitting younger children, we would most likely be helicopter parents for a while. While I understand some level of roughness with children of the same age, if someone was parenting in a manner that allowed her older child to hurt mine not once, but at least 3 times, I would be livid and can guarantee I would not be back at your house either.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

I just read your update and I feel really badly that you were getting yelled at over the phone by the other mom. I would have just hung up the phone in that situation.

Without minimizing the distress your son went through I think it is really out of line for your DP to try to report the other father and I am glad the station was closed. I know your son was very upset but was he physically harmed? I am not trying to minimize how your son must have felt but I very much doubt that the father was trying to hurt him, as everyone has pointed out toddlers fall all the time. The only child with a physical injury was the baby after all. You don't even know the extent of the situation because you didn't witness it yourself and your DP is willing to involve authorities? Do you have any idea what kind of reprecussions that could have for that family? I'm sorry I don't want to take sides but I think that you and your DP have gone way over board.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sk8ermaiden* 
My husband said the same thing - he probably wouldn't yell at the child, but he would prevent the child from coming close to DD again, and if he fell down in the process, too bad.

A great non-violent way to prevent it is to pick up the baby.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

I think talking to the mom was good if you don't feel like talking to the dad. But your dh decided to report this guy after you talked to the mom, it sounds as if he did it because she didn't apologise. That seems to be a huge over reaction from here and an incredibly bad reason to report someone to the police.

I can now see even more why this man was upset thoug from your update. Your son had hit his dd before. Then hit his baby twice, leaving a mark. And your response was "I don't know where the hitting is coming from." when he first hit the baby. That sounds dismisive, and the fact is, you do know your son is going through this stage, because he had done it the week before. You chose to allow your tired, cranky, hitting stage toddler to repeatedly hit a baby.

Also, you keep talking about how pushing your son is not the way to teach him not to hit. You're right. But it is also not this man's responsibility to teach your son that. It is your responsitility, just like it is his responsibility to protect his children.

Should he have pushed your son, no. I do wonder though about exactly how your son was pushed, and since you were not there, I think you may be jumping to huge conclusions. If he had pushed your son that hard, I suspect one of your friends would have intervened instead of waiting for you to come in the room, at least I would hope that they would have.


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## GoestoShow (Jul 15, 2009)

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## PretzelMama (Apr 19, 2009)

I would also be furious if an adult pushed my toddler, but I have to agree that reporting him is a huge overreaction.


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

OP, I think you are overreacting. I agree, the dad could have found another way to deal with the situation, but it's an exaggeration to qualify this as "assault" or "child abuse". Also, you have too many excuses for you and your ds. If I were the other parent, I wouldn't be very happy about my dk being REPEATEDLY hit to the point of getting marks, and being offered only excuses and apologies. If I knew my dk was going through a hitting stage, I wouldn't turn my back or leave him in the room with other children expecting other adults to take care of him. I would be prepared to physically intervene, or I would take him with me if I needed to leave the room.

Sorry, nak


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flapjack* 
So a child is lying on his back, screaming with "that cry", there's an out of control adult here and nobody's been hurt.







: Riiiiight. Not spanking=/= not hurt.

That's what I see too.

I really can not understand this thread. Clearly everyone is reading the OP and seeing a very different picture. This thread just seems to be bringing out the momma/poppa bear in everyone

I was reading the update and recent posts while nursing my 2 year old BABY. I kept looking at him and imagining him hitting another baby on the head and remembering all of the times his sister whacked him on the head (or whatever)when he was 1. Momma bear has been there to protect, but she never lashed out at another cub. Momma bear picked up the hurt baby and moved away! Maybe there was a snarl. Never a claw. KWIM?

I'm also thinking about all of the playgroups DD went to when she was 2 and under. It was a group of 4 kids. DD was the youngest, the oldest being 9 months older, the next was 7 months older and then 6 months older. This kind of stuff happened all the time, toddlers being toddlers. We moms helped each other out. We never expected there to never be a problem. We certainly never freaked out when it was our kid that was hurt. We did the best we could when our kid was the aggressor. Sometimes we were distracted and things happened that probably could have been avoided but were human and make mistakes. There was no blame. These kinds of situations are age appropriate.

What's not age appropriate is yelling and crying, pushing and shoving, the silent treatment and threatening someone's job.

OP, I'm sorry that the other family is over reacting and seems to be blaming you and your kid. Not that they are wrong for feeling protective and wronged. Just wrong for being so freaking over the top about it.

OP I think you did the best you could at the time. You may have been to lax with supervising your son while he is in this stage. You will learn from this and do better next time. Talk to your DH and settle him down. Nobody needs to have their job threatened because they had a really bad poppa bear moment.


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## Sk8ermaiden (Feb 13, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
A great non-violent way to prevent it is to pick up the baby.

I agree and that would be my first instinct, but not his. Sometimes the situation (a toddler with a track record of violence running at your baby) does not allow you to go over all your options and choose the nicest one. Sometimes you just react.


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## isign (Jan 17, 2008)

I'm scratching my head on this one. I have a 2 year old DS, and are working through this same stage, which is always worse when he is tired. In my circle of friends, we all help each other out, especially if one mom is out of the room. If the host mom is being the host, why shouldn't the other moms help out? No the child's behavior was not right, and he should have been with his mom if he was hitting, and the object should have been removed the first time.

The dad was out of line. He's an adult - if your child is being hit, pick her up. I thought that would be common sense. As for the other moms -why didn't they step in, instead of waiting for the OP to call them and then get the story?

The OPs husband is taking it to far. Neither the OP nor her DH has even talked to this man, instead going to the police for something they did not see. No, it's not right for him to do push/hit/shove a child, but at least talk to him, especially if the families are/were friends.

This whole thing was just handled so wrong.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoestoShow* 
I'd be pretty pissed off at the parent for that too, especially if the parent then took the child UPSTAIRS before apologizing instead of handling it IN FRONT OF ME where I could SEE it was being handled.

For real? Why do you need to see how it is handled? If the child and/or parent apologizes in the end, how does it matter how they got there?

There have been plenty of times I've taken my child out of earshot of others in order to let her calm down and so we could agree on what needed to be done. Doing that publicly would not have worked at all, and I imagine only escalated the situation.


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## GoestoShow (Jul 15, 2009)

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## Keria (Sep 27, 2008)

Also she told her son to apologize she never apologized herself for letting hes son hit the baby with a brush hard enough to leave a mark.


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## isign (Jan 17, 2008)

I don't think it's anyone else's business how I choose to parent my children. I don't believe that disciplining, or punishing, or correcting, or whatever term you want to use, should be done in front of others.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *isign* 
I don't think it's anyone else's business how I choose to parent my children. I don't believe that disciplining, or punishing, or correcting, or whatever term you want to use, should be done in front of others.

I agree. But there are two problems with this, for me.

If I choose to leave my child in the care of others while I do something, then I am giving other adults the burden of disciplining him in a way I may not approve.

and

If my child hurts someone and is not able to apologize for whatever reason, I should be the one doing the apologizing on behalf of my child. Then, my child and I can talk about it privately. Still, something should have been said by the OP to acknowledge the baby's hurt and apologize for her son's hitting before removing her child to the upstairs.


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## petra_william (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alfabetsoup* 
OP, I think you and your DH are overreacting. The other dad should absolutely not have pushed your son, but I can see why they are angry with you. There was a very aggressive boy in my group of friends and he seemed to single out my dd. I got really fed up with his mom's blase attitude toward the hitting and stopped seeing them.
*
Also, do you get upset when anyone corrects your child, even gently? Because that may be why none of the other moms did anything.*

Hitting and rough play IS developmentally appropriate, but that does NOT MEAN IT IS OK. I understand why DD1 hits DD2 but I don't allow it! It sounds like this isn't the first time your DS has hit anyone and I think you need to watch him much more closely in future or you will lose these friends.

no, as long as it is appropriate. i think nobody said anything because the two mums were shocked at what had happened


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoestoShow* 
The fact is, the OP took her son upstairs without any indication that the situation would be resolved or acknowledged for what it was --- her son hurting the other child.

Expecting some acknowledgment before leaving the room is one thing. Expecting the parent to discipline their child in front of you is entirely different which is what you said you wanted.

I guess to me, saying anything before leaving the room would just be an unnecessary formality. I'd expect the mom to being paying attention to her kid at that time. I would trust her enough to know that she would either come down with the kid to apologize before the nap or would come down and apologize herself once the overtired upset kid was asleep.

I think trust is sort of key with these things. It sounds like thats what's missing from the OPs situation for everyone involved.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william* 
no, as long as it is appropriate. i think nobody said anything because the two mums were shocked at what had happened

That's odd. I don't think I'd consider them friends either then, to just sit there if they were so shocked and offended by the dad's behavior. I've seen bad discipline before toward another's child and I've just stepped in, scooped up the kiddo and taken them to their mom with a quick whisper of what just happened. For the ladies to just sit there and do nothing? Wow.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I guess to me, saying anything before leaving the room would just be an unnecessary formality.

See, I'd just call that common courtesy.

Quote:

I'd expect the mom to being paying attention to her kid at that time. I would trust her enough to know that she would either come down with the kid to apologize before the nap or would come down and apologize herself once the overtired upset kid was asleep.
Really, really honestly? If you were at playdates and the same child hit yours on the head not once, but at least three times, and all you heard was "He's been hitting a lot lately" or "I don't know why he's been hitting" and then later "Let's get you to bed..." would you not feel totally offended that your child's pain hadn't even been _acknowledged_? Cuz I know I would be, and no, I wouldn't go back at all.


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## GoestoShow (Jul 15, 2009)

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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
*Really? Everyone at playgroups nowadays brings their own drinks and never uses the bathroom? Wow.*

A small group of children should not be that difficult to keep an eye on when there are *four* adults nearby. Somehow, home-daycare providers manage to keep things orderly.

Of course, toddlers hit and will be hit by others. I understand being upset when your baby gets hit, but really....the level of outrage I'm perceiving from this thread just astounds me. It's not as though someone lost a limb or had an eye poked out.

No, that's not the only other alternative. The drinks are set out on the kitchen counter for the adults to get themselves. If they have to pee they either specifically ask another mom to watch their kid, or they take them to the bathroom with them.


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## LilacMama (Aug 18, 2008)

I have one 9 MO DD and this thread had me scared to death of playgroups.








LOL.

I vote for: Everyone needs to apologize and move on. Take a break from getting together until the hitting phase is OVER. Side A should not accuse Side B of violently beating their child over the head with a hairbrush, and Side B should not accuse Side A of violent assault on a toddler. Too much drama.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoestoShow* 
No. I said I wanted it being HANDLED and to know that it was being HANDLED and that I am witness to it being HANDLED. I don't expect punishment to take place in front of me, but I expect to know _before_ the child is removed that the parent will take care of it and demonstrate as much to me.

I think this could get into a semantical debate that is probably not worth it. But just to clarify, I never said anything about punishment. I said discipline which does not mean punishment.

Either way, I think it's really intrusive for anyone to think they have the right to witness another parents disciplining/handling/parenting of their child.


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## SunshineJ (Mar 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbbieB* 
I really can not understand this thread. Clearly everyone is reading the OP and seeing a very different picture. This thread just seems to be bringing out the momma/poppa bear in everyone

I was reading the update and recent posts while nursing my 2 year old BABY. I kept looking at him and imagining him hitting another baby on the head and remembering all of the times his sister whacked him on the head (or whatever)when he was 1. Momma bear has been there to protect, but she never lashed out at another cub. Momma bear picked up the hurt baby and moved away! Maybe there was a snarl. Never a claw. KWIM?

I'm also thinking about all of the playgroups DD went to when she was 2 and under. It was a group of 4 kids. DD was the youngest, the oldest being 9 months older, the next was 7 months older and then 6 months older. This kind of stuff happened all the time, toddlers being toddlers. We moms helped each other out. We never expected there to never be a problem. We certainly never freaked out when it was our kid that was hurt. We did the best we could when our kid was the aggressor. Sometimes we were distracted and things happened that probably could have been avoided but were human and make mistakes. There was no blame. These kinds of situations are age appropriate.

What's not age appropriate is yelling and crying, pushing and shoving, the silent treatment and threatening someone's job.

OP, I'm sorry that the other family is over reacting and seems to be blaming you and your kid. Not that they are wrong for feeling protective and wronged. Just wrong for being so freaking over the top about it.

OP I think you did the best you could at the time. You may have been to lax with supervising your son while he is in this stage. You will learn from this and do better next time. Talk to your DH and settle him down. Nobody needs to have their job threatened because they had a really bad poppa bear moment.

This is the best post in this thread and sums it up perfectly. Children are just that - children. And growing up is a learning process. Two and a half is still a baby in a lot of ways, and yes, they hit, kick, punch, throw, bite, etc. As parents it's our job not only to teach them the correct and proper ways to behave but to also realize that this is the nature of the beast if you will, and to be understanding of that as well. Should the OP have watched her son better after the first incident? Maybe. She was the hostess of the playgroup, so after the first incident either one of the other parents needed to step up and take over those duties so the OP could better watch her child or else they needed to watch her child while she was attending to the expected hostess duties. Supermom or not, no woman can be everywhere and do everything. The other father seemed to take the OP's sons actions personally rather than accepting it was a developmental stage. Not unfathomable for a daddy to be protective of his little girl, but not entirely reasonable either. What blows me away really is the update and the other mother. Her child was apparently the agressor in the past and out grew it, but it's not alright for another child to go through the same stage. I especially loved her comment about how she wouldn't have allowed her children to go back due to an incident that the OP had sincerely thought was handled and behind them. These people are not acting or sounding like your friends, and honestly it's not sounding like you or your DP are that investing in being their friends either. I see a lot of strife in future years if you keep trying to maintain this.


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## j10k (Dec 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LilacMama* 
I have one 9 MO DD and this thread had me scared to death of playgroups.








LOL.

I vote for: Everyone needs to apologize and move on. Take a break from getting together until the hitting phase is OVER. Side A should not accuse Side B of violently beating their child over the head with a hairbrush, and Side B should not accuse Side A of violent assault on a toddler. Too much drama.

I agree with this. Way way too much drama. For me this would be a big huge forget about it, learn from mistakes, and move on quickly without making a huge deal about it.


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## Selesai (Oct 26, 2005)

I have a 3 yr old (P) and a 20 mo old (G). Since G was born, P has hit her over the head, pushed her, pulled her, taken toys from her, etc. Yes, he's also laughed with her, hugged her, kissed her, played with her, taught her things, etc, and that occurs more often than the "abuse." But this is what we learned very quickly-- you cannot leave a toddler like a 2-3-4 year old with a younger child and assume they will not end up getting physical with each other. It's not fair to the younger child to get hurt. You have to protect the younger child. That's just the way it is.
So IMO, you should be right next to your son at playgroups if he's giving any indication of acting out.
No, the officer shouldn't have pushed him, if in fact he pushed him hard and intentionally, but I understand him trying to block the hit and move the children apart, and he was probably frustrated that you weren't monitoring your son, especially after he had already hit the girl with a brush. I think this in no way constitutes abuse.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
Really, really honestly? If you were at playdates and the same child hit yours on the head not once, but at least three times, and all you heard was "He's been hitting a lot lately" or "I don't know why he's been hitting" and then later "Let's get you to bed..." would you not feel totally offended that your child's pain hadn't even been _acknowledged_? Cuz I know I would be, and no, I wouldn't go back at all.


That is not what happened. This is:

Quote:

i take ds upstairs, angry and upset at what has happened, take a few minutes to calm us both down, tell william that we must not hit, its not nice and hurts. i ask him to come back down with me to give M a kiss ot say sorry (he cant *say* sorry yet) so i go back down, the dad is stood holding M, i walk over with DS, lift him up and say give M a kiss then. William looks across but the dad doesnt make any effort to lower M so that DS could say sorry, apart from kissing her bum / legs. he looks away after a while and buries his head in my shoulders and starts crying again, so i take him upstairs and say "lets get you to sleep" as i am upstairs i hear them talking downstiars and then leaving, the two mums calling bye but the dad saying nothing.
The "Let's get you to sleep" came *after* the child tried to apologize and the dad sort of snubbed him.

So yes, I really would not have been totally offended if the mom in the that exact situation took her son away to calm down before apologizing and then went to put him down for a nap.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

Having read the update:

I think it's time to let this go. It was an incident, things could have been better handled on both sides, and it's over with.

It is seriously not worth the drama, not worth making yourself sick over.

Perhaps this family is just not a good match for you for playdates. And certainly now you will keep your toddler nearby you, knowing that he needs supervision and you can't always rely on others do to things the way you would do them.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:

The "Let's get you to sleep" came *after* the child tried to apologize and the dad sort of snubbed him.
True...

Quote:

So yes, I really would not have been totally offended if the mom in the that exact situation took her son away to calm down before apologizing and then went to put him down for a nap.
But she _did_ take him away to calm down before apologizing. The dad had to clue what was going on upstairs, all he saw was that she picked up "the offender" and took no notice of "the victim".

Child hit the first time: "I don't know where DS has got the hitting from."
Child hit the second time: "I took DS upstairs, angry at what had happened."
Child comes back downstairs with mom: "Give M a kiss.....off to sleep..."

At no time according to this did the MOTHER ever offer any kind of acknowledgment or apology.


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## petra_william (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbbieB* 
That's what I see too.

I really can not understand this thread. Clearly everyone is reading the OP and seeing a very different picture. This thread just seems to be bringing out the momma/poppa bear in everyone

I was reading the update and recent posts while nursing my 2 year old BABY. I kept looking at him and imagining him hitting another baby on the head and remembering all of the times his sister whacked him on the head (or whatever)when he was 1. Momma bear has been there to protect, but she never lashed out at another cub. Momma bear picked up the hurt baby and moved away! Maybe there was a snarl. Never a claw. KWIM?

I'm also thinking about all of the playgroups DD went to when she was 2 and under. It was a group of 4 kids. DD was the youngest, the oldest being 9 months older, the next was 7 months older and then 6 months older. This kind of stuff happened all the time, toddlers being toddlers. We moms helped each other out. We never expected there to never be a problem. We certainly never freaked out when it was our kid that was hurt. We did the best we could when our kid was the aggressor. Sometimes we were distracted and things happened that probably could have been avoided but were human and make mistakes. There was no blame. These kinds of situations are age appropriate.

What's not age appropriate is yelling and crying, pushing and shoving, the silent treatment and threatening someone's job.

OP, I'm sorry that the other family is over reacting and seems to be blaming you and your kid. Not that they are wrong for feeling protective and wronged. Just wrong for being so freaking over the top about it.

OP I think you did the best you could at the time. You may have been to lax with supervising your son while he is in this stage. You will learn from this and do better next time. Talk to your DH and settle him down. Nobody needs to have their job threatened because they had a really bad poppa bear moment.

thank you, i agree with everything you said. i have textedthe mum (shes at work atm) and apologized again for what happened... i also asked her however how she would feel being shouted at by my dp without an apology afterwards if roles would have been reversed. i dont know what reaction i will get but things ended pretty bad so cant get much worse


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

"mum:i am furius with dad... for taking the girls there. if i would have known that he was going to yours i would have told him not to go.
me: why?
mum:tells me about an incident last week at playgroup where ds hit her older dd (same age as william) with a small train. i dealt with it there and then, taking him away from the situation and talking to him about what hed done etc. the mum told me that she was so upset by him hitting her that she was crying. she said that she'd wanted to talk to me about it but didnt - i dont know why she didnt in the end but i wish she had as we could have dealt with it then, before it escalated."

OP, you want nothing to do with these people. In addition to the fact that they are obviously not communicating with each other about incidents they regard as Big Huge Deals, a mom who is upset to the point of tears over a hitting incident between same-age toddlers, _despite the fact that her own toddler has been through a similar stage_, and doesn't communicate her deeply felt trauma to either you or her coparent, well... she might just fit into North of 60's "screw loose" category. Nobody needs this level of b.s. in their living room. Make other friends whose parenting style is more in synch with yours.

And I'd be more likely to report a cop for shoving a kid than a member of any other profession. If you DO report and it IS investigated, then the moms who actually witnessed the incident will tell the story from their POV and things will proceed from there.


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## GoestoShow (Jul 15, 2009)

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## petra_william (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
True...

But she _did_ take him away to calm down before apologizing. The dad had to clue what was going on upstairs, all he saw was that she picked up "the offender" and took no notice of "the victim".

Child hit the first time: "I don't know where DS has got the hitting from."

*i did say something else, along the lines of i hope he outgrows this but they all went / go through this stage...the dad sort of shrugged in agreement but didnt really say much, in hingsight i shouldve maybe said a quick sorry...*

Child hit the second time: "I took DS upstairs, angry at what had happened."

*if i wouldnt have gone upstairs with him i wouldhave asked if the dad pushed ds. and then told him to "leave my house because i dont want to be shouted at or my son pushed over, even if he did something wrong which i am sorry for but there is no way i will tolerate thjat kiind of behaviour from an adult in my house" i didnt want to getinto an argument so i left to calm down*

Child comes back downstairs with mom: "Give M a kiss.....off to sleep..."

*he didnt let him apologize which i felt was insulting and being childish*

At no time according to this did the MOTHER ever offer any kind of acknowledgment or apology.

i had to keep my mouth closed because no nice words would have come out and i dont believe shouting or arguing infront of 5 kids is the right thing either.

again, what ds did was *wrong*. but it wasnt like he was deliberately being aggressive towards his kids. (as in my son deliberately picked his children or the baby because she was smaller iyswim) in fact he wasnt aggressive in himself, just the ACT of hitting was iyswim.

this has been bothering me because i feel like the bad one here when imtrying to do the right thing... i found this on the internet earlier on today and it fits ds well:

"Your two year old sounds like he is becoming interested in other people. Hitting, pushing and grabbing toys are all ways that toddlers use to try to make contact with others, before they develop other social skills. Your son sounds like he is curious about other people. He has limited language and experience, so rather than walking up to someone and saying, "Excuse me. Can I play with you?," he shows his interest by smacking them. Subsequently, he discovers that he can get a reaction when he hits someone. He may even get two reactions, one from the person he hits and one from you. Even though the reactions probably aren't pleasant, he is intrigued by them.

Toddlers are fascinated with what they can make happen over and over and they are also curious about how people react in different situations. Hitting people satisfies both of these interests. Furthermore, toddlers see the world only from their own point of view and therefore don't understand that other people have different ideas and feelings than they do. "If hitting you is fun for me, I expect that it is fun for you, too." They are often very surprised at first when they hit, bite or push someone and that person cries. Sometime they continue to hit, just to see if they will get the same reaction every time and from different people.

Since they are fascinated with what they can make happen, they will repeat behaviors that cause certain predictable outcomes. These experiences can provide wonderful opportunities to learn. The frustrating thing for parents is that toddlers have to repeat behaviors numerous times before they can fully learn something. Here are some things that you can do to help your child learn positive ways to interact and also help keep other children safe in the meantime. "

this also makes sense because he has started sitting down and singing at circle time at playgroup and joins in whereas before he wasnt really interested.


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## petra_william (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoestoShow* 
That's not an apology. A condition has been attached to the apology.

An apology is, "I am sorry that my son hit your daughter. I am sorry that I did not realize the situation would escalate further. It's clear to me that you and your family were upset by this situation. I know now that I need to be on top of my son so this doesn't happen again, and I assure you that I will be."

Yes, the other people should apologize as well, and their apology should be, "I am sorry that I pushed your son and upset him. Clearly your family was upset by this situation. I know now that I need to deal with this situation by perhaps leaving early or calling for you before the situation escalates. I assure you I will not let this happen again by paying more attention to the situation as it is happening."

You have control over the first. You don't have any over the second. An apology should be an apology --- no buts or questions or accusations involved. Just what you did or didn't do, what you will do in the future, and that you're sorry. If you don't think it's your fault or your son's fault in anyway, then you at least apologize for the situation using a neutral phrase like, "I am sorry the situation got out of hand" or "I am sorry that this happened to your daughter."

Asking how someone else would feel in another situation after an apology makes the apology disingenuous.

you're right, of course. i have never dealt with a situation like this before tbh... i guess i felt that she didnt understand at all why i would be upset about it - she didnt aknowledge her husband shouting or pushing when i asked her about it, whether she was denying it, whether hedidnt tell her, whether she was protecting her hsuband or whatever, i dont know. but i guess thats why i felt i had to ask her.


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## neetling (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *QueenOfTheMeadow* 
I think talking to the mom was good if you don't feel like talking to the dad. But your dh decided to report this guy after you talked to the mom, it sounds as if he did it because she didn't apologise. That seems to be a huge over reaction from here and an incredibly bad reason to report someone to the police.

I can now see even more why this man was upset thoug from your update. Your son had hit his dd before. Then hit his baby twice, leaving a mark. And your response was "I don't know where the hitting is coming from." when he first hit the baby. That sounds dismisive, and the fact is, you do know your son is going through this stage, because he had done it the week before. You chose to allow your tired, cranky, hitting stage toddler to repeatedly hit a baby.

Also, you keep talking about how pushing your son is not the way to teach him not to hit. You're right. But it is also not this man's responsibility to teach your son that. It is your responsitility, just like it is his responsibility to protect his children.

Should he have pushed your son, no. I do wonder though about exactly how your son was pushed, and since you were not there, I think you may be jumping to huge conclusions. If he had pushed your son that hard, I suspect one of your friends would have intervened instead of waiting for you to come in the room, at least I would hope that they would have.

Gigantic ditto


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
But she _did_ take him away to calm down before apologizing.

Yes, I know. I thought that's what I said. And again, it would not offend me. I actually think that it was an appropriate way of dealing with the situation. I would have assumed mom was calming the kid down so he could come back and to try to apologize in his own little two year old way.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie* 
Nobody needs this level of b.s. in their living room. Make other friends whose parenting style is more in synch with yours.

And I have to just


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william* 
"Your two year old sounds like he is becoming interested in other people. Hitting, pushing and grabbing toys are all ways that toddlers use to try to make contact with others, before they develop other social skills. Your son sounds like he is curious about other people. He has limited language and experience, so rather than walking up to someone and saying, "Excuse me. Can I play with you?," he shows his interest by smacking them. Subsequently, he discovers that he can get a reaction when he hits someone. He may even get two reactions, one from the person he hits and one from you. Even though the reactions probably aren't pleasant, he is intrigued by them.

Toddlers are fascinated with what they can make happen over and over and they are also curious about how people react in different situations. Hitting people satisfies both of these interests. Furthermore, toddlers see the world only from their own point of view and therefore don't understand that other people have different ideas and feelings than they do. "If hitting you is fun for me, I expect that it is fun for you, too." They are often very surprised at first when they hit, bite or push someone and that person cries. Sometime they continue to hit, just to see if they will get the same reaction every time and from different people.

None of my kids have EVER gone through a hitting stage, and the third youngest is 2.5 and still isn't hitting. The youngest, of course (7 months) may prove me wrong. So this whole "developmentally appropriate" thing is outside my experience. Not saying it isn't so, just saying I haven't experienced it. Yet.


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## mommy2maya (Jun 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william* 
i had to keep my mouth closed because no nice words would have come out and i dont believe shouting or arguing infront of 5 kids is the right thing either.

again, what ds did was *wrong*. but it wasnt like he was deliberately being aggressive towards his kids. (as in my son deliberately picked his children or the baby because she was smaller iyswim) in fact he wasnt aggressive in himself, just the ACT of hitting was iyswim.

this has been bothering me because i feel like the bad one here when imtrying to do the right thing... i found this on the internet earlier on today and it fits ds well:

"Your two year old sounds like he is becoming interested in other people. Hitting, pushing and grabbing toys are all ways that toddlers use to try to make contact with others, before they develop other social skills. Your son sounds like he is curious about other people. He has limited language and experience, so rather than walking up to someone and saying, "Excuse me. Can I play with you?," he shows his interest by smacking them. Subsequently, he discovers that he can get a reaction when he hits someone. He may even get two reactions, one from the person he hits and one from you. Even though the reactions probably aren't pleasant, he is intrigued by them.

Toddlers are fascinated with what they can make happen over and over and they are also curious about how people react in different situations. Hitting people satisfies both of these interests. Furthermore, toddlers see the world only from their own point of view and therefore don't understand that other people have different ideas and feelings than they do. "If hitting you is fun for me, I expect that it is fun for you, too." They are often very surprised at first when they hit, bite or push someone and that person cries. Sometime they continue to hit, just to see if they will get the same reaction every time and from different people.

Since they are fascinated with what they can make happen, they will repeat behaviors that cause certain predictable outcomes. These experiences can provide wonderful opportunities to learn. The frustrating thing for parents is that toddlers have to repeat behaviors numerous times before they can fully learn something. Here are some things that you can do to help your child learn positive ways to interact and also help keep other children safe in the meantime. "

this also makes sense because he has started sitting down and singing at circle time at playgroup and joins in whereas before he wasnt really interested.

An almost 3yo hitting, repeatedly IS BEING AGGRESSIVE. I don't know how much more needs to happen before you would consider it aggression.

The little blurb you found about toddlers smacking each other to show interest? That is quackery. Or at best, applies to YOUNG two year olds. I have four children. The youngest is 18m. She sometimes gets excited and smacks at me, but not repeatedly smacking people with hair brushes. That is just ridiculous and unacceptable. Especially for an almost three year old.

Also, I'm just curious who your dh is thinking of reporting this other dad to. The police? I can't see that there is anything to report?


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## mommy2maya (Jun 7, 2003)

And, presumably, this playdate was several days ago, and the baby still has a mark. You have to hit pretty darn hard to leave a mark that lasts that long. If it would have been my child who was hit, I'd have been pretty mad too. I can guarantee I would have raised my voice. I would have been even madder had the mom not apologized profusely to me, and practically fall over herself to make sure my baby was ok.


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## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

You know, we used to have playdates with this other family whose two year old would constantly try to hit my baby. He left bruises several times, and the mom still wouldn't stay right on top of him. The last time we were with them I sitting on the floor playing with dd1, nursing the baby, he had already hit dd2 in the head once that day. I saw him running towards us with a wooden block acting like he was going to hit her again, so I threw up my other arm to protect her head, and as a result, accidently knocked him down. It probably did look like I did it on purpose, but I was just trying to protect my child. The 2 year old's mom was a little annoyed and made a snippy comment about how I needed to be more careful, so that was the last time that we went around them.

I guess I can see it from the other family's point of view and why they are also upset. He shouldn't have pushed, but you weren't there, so you don't know if it was a situation like mine, where he was trying to protect his baby and didn't mean to knock your son down.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie* 
North of 60 wrote:

"And I really loath the notion that people are keeping an eye on me in case I "crazily over react, freak out, and get inappropriately physical" with someone's kid all because I only have one child who is young."

If I knew you in real life, I'm sure I wouldn't be watching you like a hawk. For one thing, you have a 3.5 year old, not a year old baby who you have just started bringing to playdates.

*But frankly, I think your generalization (that inexperienced parents who fail to use handle routine toddler herding effectively "have a screw loose") is way more insulting and way less useful than my framing.* This stuff is not that easy, especially in our culture that does not exactly train people in gentle ways to handle ANYTHING, much less parenting! It's been my experience that the playdate mama who is a nerve-wracking cross to bear when her child is 1 can end up being a pleasure to be around a year later - because her child has spent that year teaching her how toddlers act and what works/doesn't work in terms of redirection and discipline, and she has been wise enough to receive that knowledge and chill out. !

What? Are you serious? I NEVER, ever said that that inexperienced parents who fail to handle routine toddler herding effectively have a screw loose!! I was replying to your assertion that new parents will "crazily over react, freak out, get angry, cry, yell, and sometimes even be inappropriately physical". People don't act like _that_, and do _all of those things_ because they're a new parent. Good gravy.

You're either being dramatic and sarcastic to make a point, or I'm being way to literal in the interpretation of "crazily over reacting, freaking out, getting angry, yelling, crying, and being inappropriately physical", because that's the behavior of someone who has a screw loose! And NO WHERE am I saying that parents who are unable to handle toddlers are this way. It's to point out that your generalization of NEW PARENTS is insulting if you're really suggesting that people keep an eye on new parents to make sure they don't act this way. I'm a new parent to an only child, and I yet to EVER act the way you're describing us!


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## lindberg99 (Apr 23, 2003)

OP! This sounds very stressful!

The part you quoted from that article makes it sound like "Oh well, Johnny hits because he's fascinated by the outcome. Nothing to do about it!" But it goes on to give some good advice like: Support the victim, supervise your child closely, learn to anticipate behavior, choose situations where he is likely to be successful and choose durable playmates.

My third child went through a hitting phase. I found it was triggered by a gym class and he invariably went for younger children. He was fine at story time where he was one of the youngest. But at gymnastics, which was 1 & 2 yo, I had to tail him constantly. I finally quit going because it was really stressful. The other moms would be chatting and I'd be running around trying to keep my son from pushing, grabbing, etc.

I think if you are going to do playgroups, you are going to have to constantly supervise your child. I know other moms should do it, but you know, if you've never had a "hitter", you don't realize how quickly things can happen. I sure didn't, until I had my third. This isn't forever, with my son it really only lasted a couple months.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoestoShow* 
That's not an apology. A condition has been attached to the apology.

An apology is, "I am sorry that my son hit your daughter. I am sorry that I did not realize the situation would escalate further. It's clear to me that you and your family were upset by this situation. I know now that I need to be on top of my son so this doesn't happen again, and I assure you that I will be."

Yes, the other people should apologize as well, and their apology should be, "I am sorry that I pushed your son and upset him. Clearly your family was upset by this situation. I know now that I need to deal with this situation by perhaps leaving early or calling for you before the situation escalates. I assure you I will not let this happen again by paying more attention to the situation as it is happening."

You have control over the first. You don't have any over the second. An apology should be an apology --- no buts or questions or accusations involved. Just what you did or didn't do, what you will do in the future, and that you're sorry. If you don't think it's your fault or your son's fault in anyway, then you at least apologize for the situation using a neutral phrase like, "I am sorry the situation got out of hand" or "I am sorry that this happened to your daughter."

Asking how someone else would feel in another situation after an apology makes the apology disingenuous.

all of that


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## Violet2 (Apr 26, 2007)

What an awful situation!







I think your friends are officially qualifying as not nice people now.

I have experienced this too with other people's kids. I've noticed 2 1/2 years tends to be a pushy, hitting stage--as you reminded the other mom.

I've had a few moms that I've really liked but couldn't invite over because every time we go together, their kid beat the crap out of mine. Now their kids are older and it's much better.

I'm sort of afraid of when DD hits the hitting stage.

Hang in there momma. You did nothing wrong.

V


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william* 
he didnt let him apologize which i felt was insulting and being childish.

FWIW, I don't like the whole concept of a hurt kid having to endure more contact from the kid who hurt them under the guise of an apology. I know that your heart was in the right place when you took your son over to kiss the girl, but if a kid had hit mine repeatedly, I probably wouldn't subject her to further contact either -- by that point, she was probably scared of him. I wouldn't have been rude to you about it, but I might have said, "I appreciate the apology, but she's scared so I'll just keep holding her up here."

I even do that between my own two kids -- if my 5yo DS is too rough with my 1yo DD and she gets scared and comes to me, I'll hold her up, and if he comes over to give her a hug and she stiffens I'll just say, "Sorry honey, she doesn't feel like hugging right now because she's still scared. Maybe in a little while after she sees you being more gentle you can try again."

Anyway, all that to say that that part in and of itself may not have been intentionally insulting or childish, but I can certainly see how you interpreted it that way given all the other awful stuff that was going on. I hope you guys resolve things soon.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie* 
It's been my experience that the playdate mama who is a nerve-wracking cross to bear when her child is 1 can end up being a pleasure to be around a year later - because her child has spent that year teaching her how toddlers act and what works/doesn't work in terms of redirection and discipline, and she has been wise enough to receive that knowledge and chill out.

I'd hate to think that the skill set and attitude I started with when my youngest was 1 was the skill and and attitude that I need to rely on to parent him successfully through high school. The learning curve is infinite, I hope!

I'm going to echo North of 60 and say that you are coming across as insulting. The learning curve is infinite whether one is a FTM or a mom of many as evidenced by the thousands of threads here on MDC. We cannot generalize all first time parents like that. For example, I became a FTM at 40 who had already helped raise a child, am the oldest of 5 siblings with a large span of years in between, and I've been an RN for over a decade. In other words, my comfort level is a bit different than perhaps a 19 yr old FTM who had no sibs, etc. Hey I have tons to learn as it is but we all do, none of us need to be singled out.


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## SunshineJ (Mar 26, 2008)

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that the people who've "never seen/had a child hit like that at that age" haven't had their children in daycare at that age. We had to put our dk's in daycare when they were 2 and 4, and the 2 year old came home with marks at least once a week from some child being agressive. The workers were very good at staying on top of things, but children at that age are also prone to that type of behaviour. Seldom was it the same offender, and often it was as much not paying attention as it was full out agression. Some of it was what we referred to as "toddler justice" - as in my dd wouldn't share a crayon with her best friend so her best friend bit dd's hand. Certainly not "ok" or right, and it was addressed, but in the mind of a child that age, it was the appropriate reaction until taught otherwise. Once dd moved to the 3's it was still a problem for about 6 months (80% of the class moved up together, so it was the same age range/group of children). It wasn't until she was around 3 1/2 that the agressive behaviour really slacked off a lot. Funny thing, by then they were all talking and things were a lot easier for them to communicate.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *QueenOfTheMeadow* 
Should he have pushed your son, no. I do wonder though about exactly how your son was pushed, and since you were not there, I think you may be jumping to huge conclusions. If he had pushed your son that hard, I suspect one of your friends would have intervened instead of waiting for you to come in the room, at least I would hope that they would have.









Exactly. The friends are telling her after the fact that the dad "pushed" her DS. Had I been in that situation and I had seen a man push my friend's son, you can be sure I would have both immediately said someting to him AND went to the kitchen and told her.

OP, I agree with a PP in that you need to hover until your son grows out of this stage. You said you don't know why he's hitting or when he's going to do it so you need to be right there to try to prevent some of it.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

I've read this whole thread, and the OPs update. OP, what is still disturbing to me from reading this whole thread is how attached you are to YOUR version of what the father of the 1 yr old did, despite you not having seen it with your own eyes, and the fact that you are still acting like you didn't have a real responsibility to either stay with your son after the first hit with the hairbrush or somehow ask a specific other person to keep watch of him if you had to step away.

The only thing you have confirmed with your friends is that the 1 yr old's father put a hand on your son and he fell over. What the father's intention was in putting a hand on your child - separating him from his daughter vs. actually shoving him and trying to push him over - DOES MATTER when you start trying to report someone to the police and get him in trouble at his own job. Father also shouldn't have shouted at your son when you brought him back to apologize, so that there is the only clearly inappropriate thing father did. But what happened with the hand/falling over/shoving?/separating? you really still don't know and you are talking like you know the intent.

I'm not saying the father was definitely only trying to protect his daughter and didn't mean to knock your son over. I don't know, no one except the dad knows what was going through his head in that moment. But since you don't know either and only have confirmation of what physically happened, you are going on to follow up on this with certainty about dad's intent that I just dont understand.

Your husband is no doubt also telling the story (like to the patrol officer) with the version of the father purposely shoving your son with the goal of shoving him, vs. again possibly only trying to protect his daughter and either being too strong with his hand or as others have pointed out, sometimes it takes almost nothing to cause a 2 1/2 yr old to lose their balance.

The other moms can't tell you what the father's intent was unless there were details in how he did what he did that make it clear he intended to hurt your son. I work for child welfare and if I heard your account of the whole thing I'd say no way can you be sure that is abuse, ESPECIALLY because the father in question was protecting his daughter after your son hit her for the SECOND time.

What I also haven't seen anyone here address so far (or maybe I missed it) is that no matter how much 2-3 yr olds are still working on impulse control and still sometimes lash out without meaning to, they CAN be PURPOSEFUL and they can INTENTIONALLY hit a specific person for a specific reason. They are *not* too young to form intent to hurt. Yes they are still children, so I"m in no way saying they should be punished beyond regular boundary setting that is age appropriate, but OP you're acting like your son didn't possess the ability to be pissed that this little baby still had the hairbrush he wanted to play with and go and hit her twice on purpose.

Since you came to this board and asked everyone what they thought, I'm just gonna tell you straight: you are in for a lot more difficult situations with friends and their kids if you fail to really see your own son as someone who yes, can be a victim and of course can be hurt, but also as someone who already can intend to hurt another child (in a 2 1/2 yr old way) and if you only see him as a victim in situations like this you're going to be challenged in your ability to monitor him and help him with his much needed boundaries because you're not going to think he's got a choice in the matter. When often he does.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SunshineJ* 
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that the people who've "never seen/had a child hit like that at that age" haven't had their children in daycare at that age. .

That isn't completely true. I have a daycare. I've had it for over 25 years, and never, ever, after 100s of two year olds have I had a two year old hit a nine month old. Maybe hug, or run into a nine month old, but I can't even imagine any of my two year old hitting a baby.

They occasionally hit each other. But, it's extremely rare. It's not how I am hovering over them or even preventing it. They just don't hit.

Now a 15 month old..... maaaaaybe will hit. But, even that is rare. At two and a half, I can give them a hard job to do, and they will happily do it. They can put their shoes on, they can take their clothes off, and some of them can put their own shorts on. I can ask them to go find Kayla's shoes, and they will come back with Kayla's shoes.

Hitting among two year olds is usually a "fight" that needs intervention. It's never (in my experience) an act of agression just because they want to see what happens.

********************

I DO think these parents are overreacting though. They are taking things to a whole new level that isn't appropriate. Kids act badly sometimes. It's not like he's running through the house with knives. BOTH of the baby's parents took it too far and it was downright mean. What was the point of the mom saying what she said? I actually thougth the father of the baby would feel really bad about shoving the OP's son, but I can see why he's so overprotective.. Mom's a freak!

BUT..... Karma sucks. One day, their child will be the "hitter", and hopefully they will see things from the other side.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

Wow. This whole thing is the *picture* of over-reaction- by everyone. This went from a frustrating and questionable handling of a child's behavior at a toddler playdate by a bunch of adults who contributed to this mishandling (including the mom) to a situation that is going to involve the police? Wow.

Look, OP. Whatever happened, it sucks. But it looks like you are no longer friends with this family (and, looks like maybe not even the playgroup- drama, choosing sides, a police report that would HAVE to have them involved, as you didn't even see this incident, etc.) so you don't need to see this family again or worry about this guy. I think "abuse" would be hard to prove, if not entirely impossible (not to mention that it may not have happened at all). Your son was not hurt. The other child was not too hurt.

Let it go. Get your husband to let it go. It is not worth this. Really. It was lousy. You now have a lot to think about. Move on.


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## akwifeandmomma (Aug 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexsam* 

Let it go. Get your husband to let it go. It is not worth this. Really. It was lousy. You now have a lot to think about. Move on.









I agree. Please - just let it go.


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## Ofwait (Feb 16, 2008)

OP and the update..... Wow, that is all I can say. You are creating a huge scene, your DH is creating a huge scene. Over something that you have second hand and your DH third. I hope that you realize that taking something like that to the police is going to get YOU labeled as the kooks...

This was a situation that was handled badly on both sides, the actions your family is taking now could take this from an unfortunate situation to an out right disaster.... tread carefully.... but really LET IT GO!!!!!


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## MCR (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ofwait* 
OP and the update..... Wow, that is all I can say. You are creating a huge scene, your DH is creating a huge scene. Over something that you have second hand and your DH third. I hope that you realize that taking something like that to the police is going to get YOU labeled as the kooks...

This was a situation that was handled badly on both sides, the actions your family is taking now could take this from an unfortunate situation to an out right disaster.... tread carefully.... but really LET IT GO!!!!!

Yeah I agree with that, it's one of those live and learn things, kids fight kids get hurt kids get their feelings hurt. Your Ds wasn't injured, big burly Daddy over reacted and I bet he feels like an idiot for it. I'd just move on. I've had a hitter biter and a recipient of the hits and bites, it's part and parcel of having toddlers.
Would you really want this guy to lose his job and ability to support his family over something like this. He knows darn well (and so does his wife) that he shouldn't have done it. But I bet he's too embarrassed to admit it.


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## jeliphish (Jul 18, 2007)

I would venture to say that the little girl's dad instinctively reacted to protect his child and perhaps separated the two children quickly which led to your son falling.
If a 2.5 year old was hitting my baby I would do the same thing... Its instinctive almost to act before thinking in those situation.
I think after the first incident OP, you should have kept more of an eye on your son. 2.5 is old enough to be able to know that hitting (and especially hitting a baby which is nowhere close to his view of a competitive peer) is not okay IMO. And it seems like this family is pretty frustrated themselves since this is the 3rd or more incident.
I would let it go at this point.


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## Cascadian (Jan 28, 2009)

OP, I can see myself doing what that daddy did, and feeling justified in protecting my child (not at all supporting violence, but his instinctive reaction).

Your posts remind me of the moms who always play their kids as the victims, and never bother putting themselves in others' shoes.

I think you've overreacted. IMO, your child was in the wrong, and you were in the wrong, period. And now you've probably polarized and destroyed a playgroup.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ofwait* 
This was a situation that was handled badly on both sides, the actions your family is taking now could take this from an unfortunate situation to an out right disaster.... tread carefully.... but really LET IT GO!!!!!


Yes. Now you really just need to stop this all and let it be done. If you go through with this with the police, it has the potential to be terrible for all involved and good for no one.

Let it go. Move on.


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## Porcelain Interior (Feb 8, 2008)

This thread is why in a nutshell I've never been to nor instigated a single playdate in the entire childhoods of both my children. (Who are now 8 and 13).

I like organic friendships. Not set ups.

Yikes. I hope ya'll can find good people to have in your lives with little ones that mesh and bond with your little ones.


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## mommy2maya (Jun 7, 2003)

I'm still amazed you would try to have a man fired over yelling at your kid, and separating him from hitting his baby with a hairbrush.


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## cattmom (Apr 6, 2009)

From the OP: "again, what ds did was *wrong*. but it wasnt like he was deliberately being aggressive towards his kids. (as in my son deliberately picked his children or the baby because she was smaller iyswim) in fact he wasnt aggressive in himself, just the ACT of hitting was iyswim"

From Viola: "My husband completely disagrees with me and we just had a little argument. He said, "Eff that, I'm not saying the kid is evil, but if he's hurting my daughter, I'm going to stop him and I won't care if he falls down in the process."

OP, I can't really see what you mean. You said your son hit the baby twice because she was playing with a toy he wanted. He was motivated to hit her in order to get his way. Hitting is normal and expected in some kids at this age, (just like biting) but motivated hitting like this is also aggressive and anti-social, which is why you're teaching him not to do it, rather than just seeing it as a stage that passes. Your child is young, but he is a human being, not a saint. We've got to see and love our children for who they really are - humans who must struggle with the impulses that we all have and all need to control.

Regarding Viola, the father from the original post, and all the other comments on fathers and playgroups: People pay a lot of lip service to how important fathers and male influences are in raising boys. We pay a lot of lip service to "it takes a village." But when it comes down to actual male actions and opinions and the ways that they are different from ours, we often don't give them any real respect. I'm not saying I'm different - I'm probably as bad as anyone. But I recognize that sometimes men are pretty good at cutting to the chase.

In a way, this whole discussion makes me long for the days when adults were happy to be adults and didn't take the events of a playgroup so personally.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

This is what bothers me about the update:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william* 
i dealt with that at the time and im sorry it happened but *i cant glue william to me all the time and i cant predict when he might do it.* all i can do is deal with it and apologize.

Here you have a 2.5 year old who you know is prone to hitting right now, and since you're not willing to be 100% vigilant in supervising him around other children I'm wondering what your idea of "dealing with it" is? Apologizing?

This kind of reminds of the old adage; "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

I think you owe it to the kids your son is playing with to be 100% on top of supervision, which means, yes, he will have to be glued to you at playdates. If you have to leave the room, ask your friends to watch him for you. Take him with you. Or skip the playdate if it won't be possible for you to watch him the entire time.

You may not be able to predict it to an exact moment, but if you're checked in on the supervision you might be able to see signs of him getting frustrated/excited/whatever which might indicate it's time to take a break before he resorts to hitting. And if you can't prevent him from hitting, at the very least you can stop him from doing it again, which shows the other parents you're being pro-active about trying to _prevent_ him from hurting other kids. You seem hell bent on apologies, but have not mentioned anything about _preventing_ it, which I think is more important.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cattmom* 
Hitting is normal and expected in some kids at this age, (just like biting) but motivated hitting like this is also aggressive and anti-social, *which is why you're teaching him not to do it*, rather than just seeing it as a stage that passes.

But is talking to a 2.5 year old really enough to teach them not to hit? 2.5 year olds aren't know for their reasoning skills. A play date/get together/trip to the park/whatever would end the moment my daughter hit someone. Even now at 3.5 she doesn't have the attention span for long talks about the ins and outs why certain things are not Ok. It has to be short and sweet otherwise she tunes out and the message is lost. If this is happening everytime her son hits someone, is he really "getting" these talks if they're the ONLY way she's dealing with the problem?

This is the part about GD that I'm not all that thrilled about. I do believe that sometimes there needs to be consequences to our actions, even if the natural consequence is imposed by me. In this case if you hit, you won't be allowed to play. It's not safe. Today my daughter picked up my 4 month old nephew and tried to carry him across the room after I said no when she asked if she could do it. She got set up at the kitchen table with some drawing materials instead of playing with him because I can't trust her. When it comes to safety there isn't time to wait for young kids to understand a talk, or to wait for a phase to pass. I'm sure I could have had a talk with my daughter about the dangers of carrying the baby - there's pets, stairs, we had craft materials out, etc. But is she really going to stay engaged long enough for it to sink in? I doubt it. She caught on really quickly, however, when she wasn't allowed to play with him if I can't trust her to honor my answer of "no you may not carry the baby, it's not safe".

And on the issue of involving the police, I'm just floored that you're even considering it. As someone else mentioned, you will inevitably involve everyone at the playdate (as they'll be your witnesses since you didn't actually watch the situation unfold), possibly cause this man to loose his job (or pay while fighting the allegations), which of course could trickle down to affect the kids. A police officer who looses his job, or gains a poor reputation due to "child abuse" could potentially have a really hard time getting another job which could result in them loosing their house, cars, or a whole slough of other things. You may not like him, but do you want that for his children? Is he _really_ deserving of that in this situation? I don't think so. Everyone agrees that while the reaction may be understandable he could have handled it better, but at the same time, you're child is a known hitter and you're refusing to supervise him 100% the time while he's with other children. I hope that he doesn't claim injuries and come after you for negligent behavior in retaliation to child abuse charges. Do you not see how ugly this has the potential to be? And what a complete and utter waste of resources it is?

But above all, I think you're husband is doing a horrendous job of demonstrating to your son how to deal with conflict. And considering the fact that he hits other children, now is really a good time to set a good example on how to deal with this sort of stuff.

And, I think it really sucks that you guys think this is important enough to deter the police away from catching REAL bad guys. People who use the police (and CPS and such) as a tactic for personal fights are abusing the system and potentially causing harm to people who really need the police for REAL crimes.


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## cattmom (Apr 6, 2009)

I don't think we disagree at all here. I'm just saying that this kind of hitting really is aggressive behavior, that the OP shouldn't be afraid of acknowledging this to herself, and that it doesn't make her son bad or unlovable, just a regular human struggling appropriately with the impulses of that age (and a bit of an extra challenge to his mom for the next few months until she can teach him to stop doing it).


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cattmom* 
From Viola: "My husband completely disagrees with me and we just had a little argument. He said, "Eff that, I'm not saying the kid is evil, but if he's hurting my daughter, I'm going to stop him and I won't care if he falls down in the process."

...

Regarding Viola, the father from the original post, and all the other comments on fathers and playgroups: People pay a lot of lip service to how important fathers and male influences are in raising boys. We pay a lot of lip service to "it takes a village." But when it comes down to actual male actions and opinions and the ways that they are different from ours, we often don't give them any real respect. I'm not saying I'm different - I'm probably as bad as anyone. *But I recognize that sometimes men are pretty good at cutting to the chase.*

In a way, this whole discussion makes me long for the days when adults were happy to be adults and didn't take the events of a playgroup so personally.

Can you clarify for me what you meant by the bolded, please? The chase that was cut to involved four people upset, where only two needed to be, and an unpleasant degree of hostility on the part of the father. That's not cutting to the chase, it's melodramatics.

North_of_60, IME of parenting two bright, lively boys (and yes, this is code for "they're a handful") as well as my little ones, talking about things is something that comes recommended most by mums of girls and sometimes hands on intervention is appropriate. With DD, a discussion will work. With my boys, I can say the same thing twenty trillion times in twenty trillion different ways and they'll still forget the next time they're faced with the same choice. Some kids are just like that, y'know? Physically removing from a situation, leaving early, a change of environment, a change of peers, close supervision, hands on, some time-in in the middle of a crowd, whatever works for your kid or kids. I've found that peer pressure can actually be very helpful with small boys, as I mentioned upthread- and therefore, getting small boys in a mix of ages can be very good for them.

OP, you haven't responded directly to any of my comments on this thread, but I'll try one more time. You're unusual in having a boy in a group that's mostly girls, right? That means that he's going to be judged more harshly for hitting than they are. It sucks, but it's a fact of life. Your kids will be punished by exclusion from playdates, from playgroups, birthday parties and all of the other things that go along with the preschool years UNLESS you step up and take responsibility for your son's behaviour. He is two. Part of recognising age-appropriate behaviour, as you do, is that you need to be right there on hand to help him navigate situations that he's not yet ready to deal with.


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## tinyblackdot (Aug 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *strawberryfields* 
well, if you want me to be entirely honest in this wwyd situation, i would have been apologetic (and embarrassed) that my 2.5 year old was hitting his baby over the head with a hairbrush and not allowed them to be alone without very close supervision, even for a second. I would feel understanding that he was angry and upset that his baby was being hit on the head. Since the push wasn't witnessed i don't think i could be angry about it--i agree that he could have been just trying to break them up. Sometimes when i am trying to pull off a child who is being too aggressive with another one, or block someone from hitting/getting too physical, the child ends up on his/her bum. I think it is very possible that the dad was trying to protect his baby and is not really experienced in that type of situation.

I think that if you have a child who is tired/possessive/hitting (as age appropriate as that may be), you really need to be on top of your kid and keep him with you at all times (even for a quick run to the kitchen) because it is not fair to put the other parents in a position of having to defend their children from being hit/hurt. So i would chalk it up to a lesson learned and keep my ds closer to me at the next playdate.


ita


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## RockStarMom (Sep 11, 2005)

OP: I totally feel for you. My daughter went through a stage of being more aggressive than most of her friends around that age, and I know how hard it is. And it will pass.
It comes down to the fact that your child was disrespected, and that is a horrible thing to experience. But at this point, I would simply cut ties with that family, know that your son will be okay, and let it be.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flapjack* 
With DD, a discussion will work. With my boys, I can say the same thing twenty trillion times in twenty trillion different ways and they'll still forget the next time they're faced with the same choice. Some kids are just like that, y'know? Physically removing from a situation, leaving early, a change of environment, a change of peers, close supervision, hands on, some time-in in the middle of a crowd, *whatever works for your kid or kids.*

Yes, absolutely. But what I'm wondering is, is how capable any 2 year old is at reasoning in the absence of anything else (like the supervision, change of scenery, leaving early, etc). The way her post reads is that she's just sort of letting things play out because she can't be "glued" to her son all the time (which I interpret as her not being able to watch him all the time, which is a supervision issue), and then talks to him after the fact. Not only is he not capable of reasoning, but he lacks the impulse control even if he did understand the talks about not hitting to be trusted not to hit. And after three hitting incidents with the same family within a week, clearly it's not working.


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## cattmom (Apr 6, 2009)

Gladly. The baby needed protection, and she finally got it. The boy needed to be convinced that he was doing something wrong, and he was, which was the probably reason that he was crying his eyes out, in my opinion. It's not the way I've done it myself, but a) I'm not a guy, and b) in the instances I mentioned before, both mothers apologized and intervened immediately after an incident that happened once. You see this man as the source of the melodrama, but in the OPs ongoing posts and updates, the fountain of all this furious fuming gutted exhausted shaking texting phoning where's-my-apology we're-going-to-the-cops anguish isn't him.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Yes, absolutely. But what I'm wondering is, is how capable any 2 year old is at reasoning in the absence of anything else (like the supervision, change of scenery, leaving early, etc). The way her post reads is that she's just sort of letting things play out because she can't be "glued" to her son all the time (which I interpret as her not being able to watch him all the time, which is a supervision issue), and then talks to him after the fact. Not only is he not capable of reasoning, but he lacks the impulse control even if he did understand the talks about not hitting to be trusted not to hit. And after three hitting incidents with the same family within a week, clearly it's not working.

Yup. I know some 2yo's who can get it from talking, but not many: and generally they are kids who have been real people-pleasers, and coincidentally all girls. For boys, my preferred response is to be on top of them until they get it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cattmom* 
Gladly. The baby needed protection, and she finally got it. The boy needed to be convinced that he was doing something wrong, and he was, which was the probably reason that he was crying his eyes out, in my opinion. It's not the way I've done it myself, but a) I'm not a guy, and b) in the instances I mentioned before, both mothers apologized and intervened immediately after an incident that happened once. You see this man as the source of the melodrama, but in the OPs ongoing posts and updates, the fountain of all this furious fuming gutted exhausted shaking texting phoning where's-my-apology we're-going-to-the-cops anguish isn't him.

Oh, I'm agreeing that ALL the melodramatics are entirely unnecessary. The thing is, if I'd been at the playdate and had seen a (female) friend of mine handle a situation like that I'd be ringing the next day to ask if anything was wrong because of the way she reacted. I'm not seeing what the male touch achieved here







: apart from screaming people and alienation.


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

Interesting to see all the different views here.

I agree with those that have said things have gone WAY too far. Apologies need to be said & everyone moving on - whether that is the end of the friendship or not is left to be seen.

The part I most don't understand though is why the OP called the man's wife? It seems very strange to me to "report" a grown man to his wife.


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## Jugs (Mar 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
This is what bothers me about the update:

Here you have a 2.5 year old who you know is prone to hitting right now, and since you're not willing to be 100% vigilant in supervising him around other children I'm wondering what your idea of "dealing with it" is? Apologizing?

This kind of reminds of the old adage; "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

I think you owe it to the kids your son is playing with to be 100% on top of supervision, which means, yes, he will have to be glued to you at playdates. If you have to leave the room, ask your friends to watch him for you. Take him with you. Or skip the playdate if it won't be possible for you to watch him the entire time.

You may not be able to predict it to an exact moment, but if you're checked in on the supervision you might be able to see signs of him getting frustrated/excited/whatever which might indicate it's time to take a break before he resorts to hitting. And if you can't prevent him from hitting, at the very least you can stop him from doing it again, which shows the other parents you're being pro-active about trying to _prevent_ him from hurting other kids. You seem hell bent on apologies, but have not mentioned anything about _preventing_ it, which I think is more important.

^^This. I have an autistic child who has been going through the hitting/biting/kicking stage for about...oh, 2 years now so we have pretty much avoided playdates. As much as I'd like to get out with him more, its not fair to anyone else to have their child hit, its embarassing and exhausting for me to have to be on top of him constantly, and its not fair to ds to put him in a situation where he is inevitably going to lash out physically. I think the OP handled the situation as best as she could in the heat of the moment, but I think the wisest option would have been to either cut the playdate short or skip it altogether if her ds was tired. While I do find it disturbing that the father was a bit childish about the attemped apology (at the time of the incident), I can understand him being angry; he wasn't seeing the boy as tired toddler, he was seeing him as a threat to his baby's safety.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

North of 60 wrote:

"I was replying to your assertion that new parents will "crazily over react, freak out, get angry, cry, yell, and sometimes even be inappropriately physical". *People don't act like that,* and do all of those things because they're a new parent."

IME, yes, *some folks absolutely do act like that*. People who show no signs of being crazy in their daily lives can most definitely be made to ACT crazy when they are learning how to deal with a developmental stage they've never coped with before (although, as another poster pointed, you can have six kids and get your first hitting/biting victim with toddler #7, and as you pointed out, you can rack up a lot of experience with children before you ever have one of your own and not be discomfited at all by the typical toddler stuff).

But. You can also be a typically sane and reasonable person who gets temporarily driven to distraction when you start involving your young child in group play situations for the first time. Because it's very stressful for a lot of people. With first children, it's also often to first time the baby gets hit or has somebody take something from them, and that obviously makes the situation all that much more fraught.

You've really never seen the mother of a young toddler overreact horribly with an older toddler, making the older kid cry because a strange adult is inexplicably and titanically angry with him, whilst the younger kid has wandered off having already forgotten the pushing/toy taking/whatever? I have seen this over and over again in the playdate world. Maybe I logged my playdate years in a weird part of the country, I dunno... but as I said before, it does seem to pass with most people, usually around the time that THEIR kid starts with the hitting and the toy-taking.

I'm not missing the playdates right now. Although some of them were really great...


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Smithie I have to say, as a first time mom, I still find it somewhat insulting what you are generalizing about first time parents. I am guessing maybe you have seen something like this first hand? If so that stinks but you are painting a picture with really broad strokes kwim and it is really not fair to talk like that.

I could say that I see moms of many who have let the youngest one just run around like a maniac because they are too busy with the others and so all moms with more than one child must be like that, but this wouldn't be true of all the mothers out there of more than one child, just what I have seen with a couple of my aunt's who have 4 kiddos each.

I also don't think it is just first time parents who are "driven to distraction" all the time, point in case the father in the OPs thread has an older child.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie* 
North of 60 wrote:

"I was replying to your assertion that new parents will "crazily over react, freak out, get angry, cry, yell, and sometimes even be inappropriately physical". *People don't act like that,* and do all of those things because they're a new parent."

IME, yes, *some folks absolutely do act like that*. People who show no signs of being crazy in their daily lives can most definitely be made to ACT crazy when they are learning how to deal with a developmental stage they've never coped with before (although, as another poster pointed, you can have six kids and get your first hitting/biting victim with toddler #7, and as you pointed out, you can rack up a lot of experience with children before you ever have one of your own and not be discomfited at all by the typical toddler stuff).

But. You can also be a typically sane and reasonable person who gets temporarily driven to distraction when you start involving your young child in group play situations for the first time. Because it's very stressful for a lot of people. With first children, it's also often to first time the baby gets hit or has somebody take something from them, and that obviously makes the situation all that much more fraught.

You've really never seen the mother of a young toddler overreact horribly with an older toddler, making the older kid cry because a strange adult is inexplicably and titanically angry with him, whilst the younger kid has wandered off having already forgotten the pushing/toy taking/whatever? I have seen this over and over again in the playdate world. Maybe I logged my playdate years in a weird part of the country, I dunno... but as I said before, it does seem to pass with most people, usually around the time that THEIR kid starts with the hitting and the toy-taking.

I'm not missing the playdates right now. Although some of them were really great...

While I never acted like that, I felt sort of like acting like that at times but always got control of myself and tried to behave appropriately. There were a couple of times I got kind of pissed off (internally) when I felt some older kid wronged my daughter. As a matter of fact, I sometimes still do







. I didn't and still don't carry it with me. It's more of an in the heat of the moment type thing.

It's interesting though, because I will look back like a year later when my daughter is at the same age as the kid who supposedly wronged her, and I totally get that the kid was just acting his or her age. I've really tried to work on being less judgmental and more understanding of other kids (and their parents) because of that.

It's funny too because when my daughter is playing with a younger kid and the mom doesn't have kids my daughter's age, I can see the wheels turning in her head, and I'm pretty sure she is thinking the same as I might have been when I was in her shoes..."Jeez, my kid will never act like that. What's wrong with her?"








Anyway, I may be the only one, but I didn't find your comments insulting and actually really related to them.


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## Jugs (Mar 18, 2009)

Quote:

It's funny too because when my daughter is playing with a younger kid and the mom doesn't have kids my daughter's age, I can see the wheels turning in her head, and I'm pretty sure she is thinking the same as I might have been when I was in her shoes..."Jeez, my kid will never act like that. What's wrong with her?"









Ah yes. I secretly enjoy when their does indeed do that, so I can say with sincerity "Yeah, ds used to do that, too."


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## homeschoolingmama (Jun 15, 2007)

When my son was 2 1/2 he was the same way. As soon as we heard him scream we would run to get to him before he bit or pushed.
One thing I noticed was you said your son isn't very verbal. My son wasn't at that age either. He couldn't get his words out so he did the only thing he knew how to make an action stop. If a child was taking something from him he couldn't tell them to stop. He would get frustrated and bite. All children are different! If a grown man pushed my son (or any of my children for that matter) I would have FLIPPED! Mama Bear would have come out and I would have ordered him to leave. How DARE he push YOUR son! Sure he was protecting his daughter but there are other ways to do that. My husband would have flipped as well. I am sorry this has happened to your son








On a positive note, my son is almost 4 now and there is no biting or shoving. He still will scream at the top of his lungs but we are working with him to find alternative ways to get his point across.


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## petra_william (Nov 28, 2007)

i havent got much time right now butb just a few things...
i deal with williams hitting, when it happens. i sometimes hover over him if i see a situation where it could happen (like sharing toys) i take him out of the room, and say somethingof the sort we dont hit, we try to be nice to each other, if you dont want something *say* NO. are you going to play nicely now? are you gong to aploligize? if he does apologize himself then thats that, if not i apologize for him cos i dont think a forced apology is sincere. if the other child is cryingall it takes is for me to point that out to him and he feels bad, goes over of his own accord and will kiss the place the other child got hurt. he feels remorse for his actions - he just doesnt yet know how to deal with them otherwise. he may be an almost 3 year old but his language development is about a year behind, he is learnig two languages and is only now catching up-hence why i think its now that he is being more "aggressive"
i know my kid hits and i feel awful aboutit. i am not saying my child is an angel. i dont need people telling me is is an aggressive pummeling bully though.

at the end of the day everyone in the room knew about this stage. ds hit a child which waswrong. he then got purposely pushed away / over and i got shouted at angrily as if i had put him up for it. i try to apologize, ds triesto apologize, the dad doesnt say a word and the mum shouts at me like i picked her two kids as the victims and put ds up for it.
if the dad wouldnt have pushed or shouted i would have "told william off" and would have apologized. ds would have seen the baby cry and probably felt remorse andapologized of his own accord as he does when he sees other people cry. i would have been mortified and made surebaby wasok, maybe getting a wet flannel / some ice or whatever.
however the shock of seeing a grown man who should be trained to control his anger pushing a 2 1/2 year old and shouting at me and then *not* apologizing for a gut reaction or even feeling sorry for hurting my son is why i have been shaking and feeling depressed and close to tears for the past two days.

it doesnt help that my brother had to close the shop down that he inherited from my dad and has been in the family for over 30 years, that my scan revealed that i might not be able to have a normal birth, never mind a homebirthb and that dps step dad who is like a dad to him is dying.








please be gentle with me i feel bad enough about this situation as it is.


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## nudhistbudhist (Jan 13, 2009)

I believe there may be a chance OP's son may have been "brushing" her hair... DS always hits me with brushes and combs... he thinks he is being nice and "brushing" my dreads







Either way, it seems the whole thing has been blown way out of proportion... they are just children d oing child-like things. My ds is 13 months and has had a few incidences where older toddlers have either been taking things away or grabbing his face/hair. Ds says "No!" a few times, or "Don't touch" and eventually will push the toddler away/over. I don't usually interfere unless he wants help, which sometimes he does. The other moms don't usually interefere either, because the children are learning eachother's boundaries through interaction. A hairbrush does not seem like a very "dangerous" thing to bonked on the head with. Not a huge deal imho.

Perhaps the dad should have "helped" the OP's son brush her hair







that would have been the proactive thing to do!


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Wow.
What UAVs.

If William has injuries, I'd report it, otherwise, just be grateful you'll never see those people again.


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## Swirly (May 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
A bunch of two and a half year olds need pretty constant supervision. Add a less than one year old to the mix and that only increases the need of adult "help" to make this go well.

Whatever he was having a hard time sharing should have been put away. If he is tired and not able to share something well and the other child is MUCH younger and smaller then you have to be right there. If you don't want another adult handling it (in a way that you don't agree with - which honestly I don't blame you as I don't agree with it either) then YOU need to be right there to handle it yourself. Leaving the situation to someone else means you are leaving it to them. I think both you and the dad hold responsibility in this situation.

Ok, at this point you REALLY need to be right next to him from here on out. He is sending really clear signals that he can't handle this situation without your help. And if my child hurts another child, tired or not, it is now my first responsibility to keep that from happening again. Not refilling another guest's tea is a lesser issue than a baby being hit for a second time. First time unfortunate but kids are kids. Second time is mom's fault and as the parent of the baby, I'd be really mad too.

I don't understand why you are in a different room when your two and a half year old has already hit a baby on the head with a brush. Dad is shouting because his baby is being pummelled.









Yes, a grown man should not push a two year old. But you didn't see what happened. Did he put his arm up to shield his baby from getting hit again and your ds lost his balance when he ran into it? Not knowing how big or coordinated your son is makes it hard to tell. If he was a ways away, there is no way to know if he was actually pushed or fell over and backed away when the dad got mad.

Yes, you are over reacting. You were wrong not to be there to help your son control himself. Reporting him is complete overkill IMO. I think group playdates with kids of this age requires close supervision. I'd expect apologies both directions in the situation you describe. They deserve one because you let your son hit their baby in the head with a brush not once but twice. You deserve one IF he actually pushed your ds. Next time just be there and the whole thing will be avoided.

Yes to all of this. I know you were all upset by this incident, and it was most unfortunate. However, it is *your* job to protect other children from your son who is having a hard time. His behavior is quite typical for his age, but violence is never appropriate. You are responsible for hovering and helping him learn to be gentle. You have to learn to read his cues for when he might escalate to violence and prevent it. It is not always possible to do, but the closer you are physically to him, the more chance you have of being successful.

I think the man should not have raised his voice, but it sounds as if he was pretty angry at you, not your child so much. Also, I agree that he may not have actively pushed oyur son down, but may have inadvertently caused him to fall. Either way, again, if you were present, you could have also acted as your son's protector as well as the small baby's protector.

I had a friend who for a long time was always on her phone, or chatting with other moms, or just physically out of reach, and her child frequently hurt my smaller child (and other kids). I had to raise my voice at her once (the mom) (which embarrassed both of us tremendously) to get her to take a more active role, and things did improve a little after that.

I think you can turn the situation around by taking responsibility for your rolse in the events. You can't force your friends to change or make amends, but an apology and vow to be more hands-on in the future may go a long way toward repairing the relationship.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

2.5 year old hitting 1 year old =







and supervision

Adult shoving 2.5 year old =



































and at a minimum telling all your mutual friends not to trust that adult around kids.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
2.5 year old hitting 1 year old =







and supervision

Adult shoving 2.5 year old =



































and at a minimum telling all your mutual friends not to trust that adult around kids.

There is no evidence that the 2.5yo was shoved. If I had a less than 1 yo and the 2.5 yo was coming over after already hitting once, I would put my hand out to stop him getting near. If he fell, he fell, I would never push. But I would use my outstretched arm to keep him away until I could stand up and pick my baby up out of harm's way.

However, the op was the hostess. The other parents should either have been helping get/clear up the tea so she could 100% supervise her child, or they should have been supervising for her, while she was providing THEIR drinks/snacks.


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## Ofwait (Feb 16, 2008)

Op you are dealing with a lot right now, you DS is dealing with a lot, you need to step back and really decern what is going on here. Why are you upset? Is it really this incident?

But for Gods sake stop "knowing" what other people are thinking or feeling. You don't know, and your assumtions seem where a lot of your angst seems to be coming from.
You really have no clue what these other people are thinking, what intents are, etc. In this case intent is a very large factor, and you are assuming the worst... when in fact it probably wasn't there.

There is a possibility that your child is a bully.... if so YOU need to acknowledge that and deal with it appropriately, so it doesn't go further.

It may be "developmentally appopriate" for a toddler to hit. That DOES NOT make it okay! It is NEVER appropriate to be hit, and I don't know why you are minimizing your sons or your own behavior.

You did not wittness this, you do NOT KNOW what happened. Instead of flying off the handle and putting all your angst from all your other issues on this one, you need to sit back and your husband need to sit back and deal with the important things in life..... and stop trying to demonize a father for protecting his baby.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy* 
There is no evidence that the 2.5yo was shoved.

The OP stated at least one of the other parents confirmed that the dad had pushed the child. I'm not saying that's like irrefutable evidence or anything, but it seems unlikely another parent would make that up.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Pushed and put a hand up that caused the kid to fall are two different things.


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## petra_william (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy* 
Pushed and put a hand up that caused the kid to fall are two different things.

when i asked the other mum she said "we-eell.. yes he did push him..." she was reluctant to take sides as such but knew she couldnt lie to me. my son landed over a metre away from the sofa where the incidence took place so he didnt "just" fall back, his legs arent *_that_* long (and yes that is an attempt to lighten things up by joking... *sigh* even if just for myself)

oh the other thing, im saying i was in the kitchen but its kind of open plan-ish so i only had my back turned, if i would have been stood in the exact same place facing the other way i could have seen everything so i wasnt *that* far away iyswim (just get the impression that people think i was completely absent yk?)
i only had to spin round and take two steps and i was there so there wasnt really time for any of the other mums to react.


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## mommy2maya (Jun 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie* 
You've really never seen the mother of a young toddler overreact horribly with an older toddler, making the older kid cry because a strange adult is inexplicably and titanically angry with him, whilst the younger kid has wandered off having already forgotten the pushing/toy taking/whatever? I have seen this over and over again in the playdate world. Maybe I logged my playdate years in a weird part of the country, I dunno... but as I said before, it does seem to pass with most people, usually around the time that THEIR kid starts with the hitting and the toy-taking.

I'm not missing the playdates right now. Although some of them were really great...

You know what though, it doesn't MATTER if the younger/older/other kid wanders off and isn't bothered so much. When you have a child doing something WRONG, you nip it in the bud right away. If the parent isn't going to do it, I am going to tell the unsupervised child that they MAY NOT hit my child/take a toy from my child/do wrong to my child. If you object to they, be a helicopter parent. My kid did hit/bite/steal toys, but at that stage, I WAS the helicopter parent, because my toddler NEEDED that direct interaction that included me being on top of him/her to be their words/logic. To help them say, 'I am using that toy, when I am done, I will give you a turn' or "when you are done with that toy, can I use it'. Toddlers just don't learn this stuff organically. I tried to do that with my oldest daughter, and you know what happened? She became the aggressor. I tried to let her 'fend for herself', and it didn't work. So, I became the helicopter parent. Now, at almost 4, 6.5 and almost 9, my kids can work things out on their own, and know when to ask for adult help in sorting things out with their peers.

It is SO SO SO frustrating to be a parent at a playgroup with toddlers where the parents are all socializing and expecting the toddlers to go at it alone. I am doing a playgroup at my local library for 1-3yo. It is HARD work. My almost 4yo gets very frustrated because the younger kids knock over what she is working on, or try to take toys from her, and her reasoning doesn't work. But yet, the parents see her as the older kid and expect her to give up her toy, or let them knock down her building, or otherwise just let the littler kids walk on her. That is NOT acceptable. They need to be there to tell their child that she is doing XYZ, they can't take it/knock it over, etc. And at the same time, my 18mo is needing assistance to make sure she isn't getting trampled or toys taken away, or pushed, or whatever. So, yes, I am totally helicopter, cause it is necessary at this age. If not, they don't learn these social graces, and turn into the bratty kids at the playground later.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william* 
oh the other thing, im saying i was in the kitchen but its kind of open plan-ish so i only had my back turned, if i would have been stood in the exact same place facing the other way i could have seen everything so i wasnt *that* far away iyswim (just get the impression that people think i was completely absent yk?)

If your toddler is known to hit babies, then you either need to keep him away from the baby, or stay within arm's reach of him around babies. It would be great if another adult in the room can stand in for you, but they need to know that their role is to "keep ds away from the baby" or "stay within arm's reach to intercept a swing"--and be willing to do so. For some parents, it can be difficult to watch their own toddler _and_ another toddler effectively (it was for me with my first child, anyway....it is easier now that I have two).

Of course, that is no excuse for pushing a toddler with force. The dad's anger reaction is scary to me; I'd just be glad he isn't my kids' dad


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

You're going through a lot now. This really does not need to be in your life. Your son wasn't hurt, right? I bet he's probably already over it. Again, the whole thing was lousy, but nothing really was all that terrible in the end and most likely, this is a culmination of a bunch of poor choices and misunderstandings. It won't be the first time you will have conflicts with other parents, feel your son has been wronged or think of ways you could have done things differently. Part of being a parent is evaluating things, taking action if needed, and then getting things back to normal as quickly as possible. It is time to do that.

Its over. You don't need to see this guy again, so don't give him more power over you by torturing yourself (and everyone else torturing themselves) with this any more. By rehashing it, getting emotional over it, wondering how to take it to the next level (which seems futile, even if he DID push him with an intent to push), etc. you are giving this guy and the incident power over you AGAIN. Take control back by seeing it for what it was, come up with a plan to not let it happen again, then let it go.

And, an aside- you can never expect or assume other adults (even parents) will parent from your angle. Expecting other parents to make it easier for your son to apologize, for them to see your child as tired and a toddler, etc. is not an assumption that will work long term. Sure, you could have some great friends and family, but the default is not expecting anyone else to take an active role in parenting and seeing things for you or your child's perspective. They have their own, which will sometimes mesh with yours, sometimes not. Expecting children to meet yours so yours can apologize might take a back seat to their own needs at that moment to be comforted or recognized for their own anger or whatever. Even great parents with perspective might not go very far out of their way to meet your parenting goals when they conflict with what is going on for them.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

mommy2maya: I hear you. Playgroups ARE hard work for all involved. And I personally think it's not only OK, but a really good idea, for any adult to enforce justice with confident authority when the kids are rolling around at their feet.

But when that enforcement is not gentle and positive, when the adult goes to the place of tears and visible anger and hollering at or guilt-trippping a toddler, then what I learn from that is that the adult is not capable of dealing effectively with the situation and that I need to intervene and redirect THE ADULT. The kids are going to be fine. The adult will probably be also, because our worst days at playgroup are not (thank God) reflective of our ultimate potential as AP parents.

And yes, some parents absolutely do adopt a Lord Of The Flies mentality during toddler group play and stand around ignoring their kids, and yes, you can't just sit back and let that happen.


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## ilovemygirl (Sep 8, 2008)

I don't have time to read past the first page so I'm probably repeating someone and I want to say I almost never respond to these threads that get into heated debates but this situation is incredible to me so here's my two cents ...

I take issue with anyone who is blaming your son. He is a baby. There is obviously blame here but it is not his.
Your son and what happens in your home is YOUR responsibility. You knew your son was tired and you knew he had a hitting problem. You should have canceled the playdate or been glued to him the entire time. Then after the first time your son hit, you knew your son was upset, you knew the father and baby were upset and you knew you didn't like the way the father handled the incident. How could you not supervise every single second after something like that happens in your own home with your own son? Better yet, why wouldn't you end the playdate? I'm sure everyone would have totally understood since they all have kids the same age who are still prone to getting overtired, overstimulated, etc.
If your son was actually pushed/hit with real adult force I obviously think that's not okay but that doesn't seem to be what happened here and I certainly understand the fathers anger, even if I do think he overreacted. I swear I'm not trying to be mean but I totally cannot understand your point of view here. I think looking to report the father who was the one being responsible and actually supervising the children is absolutely ludicrous. I understand you are upset right now but do you realize what it sounds like when you are talking about having someone arrested for breaking up a fight between babies? You left your overtired, upset son to be supervised by someone who just disciplined your son in a way you didn't like. What did you expect to happen? I think it's sad that your son had to deal with bad adult decisions on both ends. I think this is totally being blown out of proportion and I hope both you and this couple realize it, move on and learn something from it all.


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## SimonMom (May 19, 2004)

Did you ever even ask the father what happened?









You're way way overreacting. You still make it sound like the blame is with everyone else.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie* 
North of 60 wrote:

"I was replying to your assertion that new parents will "crazily over react, freak out, get angry, cry, yell, and sometimes even be inappropriately physical". *People don't act like that,* and do all of those things because they're a new parent."

IME, yes, *some folks absolutely do act like that*. People who show no signs of being crazy in their daily lives can most definitely be made to ACT crazy when they are learning how to deal with a developmental stage they've never coped with before (although, as another poster pointed, you can have six kids and get your first hitting/biting victim with toddler #7, and as you pointed out, you can rack up a lot of experience with children before you ever have one of your own and not be discomfited at all by the typical toddler stuff).

But. You can also be a typically sane and reasonable person who gets temporarily driven to distraction when you start involving your young child in group play situations for the first time. Because it's very stressful for a lot of people. With first children, it's also often to first time the baby gets hit or has somebody take something from them, and that obviously makes the situation all that much more fraught.

You've really never seen the mother of a young toddler overreact horribly with an older toddler, making the older kid cry because a strange adult is inexplicably and titanically angry with him, whilst the younger kid has wandered off having already forgotten the pushing/toy taking/whatever? I have seen this over and over again in the playdate world. Maybe I logged my playdate years in a weird part of the country, I dunno... but as I said before, it does seem to pass with most people, usually around the time that THEIR kid starts with the hitting and the toy-taking.

I'm not missing the playdates right now. Although some of them were really great...

I think it's insulting to say that people will "crazily over react, freak out, get angry, yell, cry, and act inappropriately physical" with other people's children _because_ they're first time parents. I will maintain that no, they will not. People act like that because they don't have coping skills, or because of their upbringing, or, because they have a screw loose. NOT _because_ they are first time parents. The list of things you rattled off that new parents are capable of are demonstrations of pretty troubling behavior that goes so far past a stressful hitting stage at a playdate.

Do parents get stressed out because of their children and get a bit neurotic? Sure. But I'd be seriously wary of ANYONE who "crazily over reacted, got angry, freaked out, yelled, cried, or acted inappropriately physical" at a play date or with anyone else's kid. And to continue saying that this is normal behavior to be expected of parents simply because they're new parents to young children is insulting! I'm not a crazy person! Nor are any of my other new-parent friends. THAT is crazy person behavior!


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

I'm stunned that you (the OP) think it's appropriate to have your son KISS a child he's just hurt.

I'm sorry, but there's no way I would have lowered my hurt/crying child so that your son could kiss her. That's way beyond the realm of normal.

There are other way for him to say sorry. He can use the words. He can make the sign. You can say the words for him. Before my DD was able to say "sorry" I would say the words while she made the sign.

I think it's ridiculous for you to expect the injured child to accept MORE physical contact with the kid who just hurt her. I don't blame that dad for not lowering her.

ETA: In what world is an almost 3yo a "baby"???? That's really blowing me away. I'm around alot of 2 to 4 yos and there is a definite change as they come past 2 and start to head towards 3. The baby fades and is replaced by kid. I haven't met a 3yo yet who isn't basically all kid and no baby.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I'm stunned that you (the OP) think it's appropriate to have your son KISS a child he's just hurt.

Honestly, I'm kind of stunned that anyone would think it inappropriate, that is of course unless the child showed that she did not want any more contact. We don't know if that was the case here. If so, then of course that would not be cool. But otherwise, I don't see the problem.

Of course, I can see how someone might not feel comfortable lowing their baby even if the baby seemed okay with it (although I would), but I would think the parent in that case would at least try to acknowledge and accept the apology somehow. Seems really petty not to IMO and also sets a pretty crumby example for all the children involved.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
ETA: In what world is an almost 3yo a "baby"???? That's really blowing me away. I'm around alot of 2 to 4 yos and there is a definite change as they come past 2 and start to head towards 3. The baby fades and is replaced by kid. I haven't met a 3yo yet who isn't basically all kid and no baby.

Well my daughter was still nursing and in diapers at 2 1/2, so yeah, I'm going with baby.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william* 
*when i asked the other mum she said "we-eell.. yes he did push him..."* she was reluctant to take sides as such but knew she couldnt lie to me. my son landed over a metre away from the sofa where the incidence took place so he didnt "just" fall back, his legs arent *_that_* long (and yes that is an attempt to lighten things up by joking... *sigh* even if just for myself)

oh the other thing, im saying i was in the kitchen but its kind of open plan-ish so i only had my back turned, if i would have been stood in the exact same place facing the other way i could have seen everything so i wasnt *that* far away iyswim (just get the impression that people think i was completely absent yk?)
i only had to spin round and take two steps and i was there so there wasnt really time for any of the other mums to react.

This reluctance seems to me to say that it wasn't this big shove that it seems you have made it in your head. Do you think your friends would have stood there and watched while he shoved your child hard? I doubt it. I suspect, like many here, that this was a gentle push to get your son off his 1 year old. You're son probably did stumble back and fall. Not alright, but not this huge drama it seems to have become for you and this other family.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *QueenOfTheMeadow* 
Do you think your friends would have stood there and watched while he shoved your child hard? I doubt it.

How would they have stopped him exactly? I mean I'm guessing this happened pretty fast just like the toddler hitting the baby thing did.


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## mommy2maya (Jun 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
How would they have stopped him exactly? I mean I'm guess this happened pretty fast just like the toddler hitting the baby thing did.

But would they have not spoken up- like, Hey, take it easy, WHOA, calm down, or even Wow, DS are you ok? SOMETHING, SOME reaction. From the sounds of this, the other two mothers had not much of a reaction, but to leave after the hostess went upstairs, for what seems like a long, uncomfortable time, without really saying what was going on. I am really surprised at that mostly, I mean, I understand her wanting to put her son to bed, yes. But, I guess, if it were me, I would have brought him to his bed, calmed him quickly, and told him I was going to tell the guests that we were going to have naptime now. Instead, it sounds like she just went upstairs and stayed there til they left, with no further communication with anyone.


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## mommy2maya (Jun 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *QueenOfTheMeadow* 
This reluctance seems to me to say that it wasn't this big shove that it seems you have made it in your head. Do you think your friends would have stood there and watched while he shoved your child hard? I doubt it. I suspect, like many here, that this was a gentle push to get your son off his 1 year old. You're son probably did stumble back and fall. Not alright, but not this huge drama it seems to have become for you and this other family.

I totally agree with this. As in op asked friend did baby's daddy throw my son across the room when he tapped the baby on the head? And the friend said, yes, he pushed the boy away from the baby, and your son stumbled backwards and fell on his butt.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william* 
me: i dealt with that at the time and im sorry it happened but i cant glue william to me all thetime and i cant predict when he might do it. all i can do is deal with it and apologize. i couldnt quite believe she was still laying all the blame on me...

should know better than to assault a child.
she then put the phone down on me and dp took a walk to town to the police station.

im just gutted that this escalated so much, i wish thedad cold have just left me to deal with the situation in a way i deemed appropriate.

Yes, you CAN be glued to William's side when you are with other kids, especially younger ones - and that is what is REQUIRED at this stage of his development. If you can't predict when he will hit, that is even MORE reason that you MUST be right next to him at all times during playdates. What you can and should do is BE THERE to stop it before it happens NOT just apologize after another child has been hurt. The blame is being laid on you because - honestly - that is where it belongs. If your child is too young to know better or stop himself then you are responsible to do so for him.

And the baby's dad did NOT assault your kid! One, you didn't see it. Two, does the mom who did see it think you should call the police??? Three, he was trying to protect his baby from another injury. Your dp going to the police with this is absolutely bizarre and uncalled for. *Given the information in this 11 page thread, I would not let my kids be around yours - not because he hits but because you and your dp can't be rational about what is "call the cops" worthy and what is normal, we can work through it kid stuff.*

And you wish the dad had let you handle it... I'm sure he wishes you had handled it too - but before his baby was hit a second time. You ignored your responsibility. The baby got hit again. Your son was physically stopped from hitting the baby again and fell/lost his balance/was pushed/whatever - we don't know! But while you point the finger at this dad, why aren't you acknowledging that ALL of it would have been avoided if YOU WERE THERE? I don't care if you have an open floor plan. Known hitter=mom next to him.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viola* 
My husband completely disagrees with me and we just had a little argument. He said, "Eff that, I'm not saying the kid is evil, but if he's hurting my daughter, I'm going to stop him and I won't care if he falls down in the process."

My dp and I would agree with your dp. You can start out as nice and as gentle as you want, but this kid doesn't get free reign to hit my baby in the head multiple times as long as he aplogizes and kisses her later!!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william* 
as for *how* ds hit (not making excuses, just trying to clarify) ... typically he will be playing quite calmly and then literally out of nowherehe will hit or push. just the once, kind of like waiting to see what reaction he would get iyswim. he doesnt go angry and start yelling or anything and start pummeling again and again, it is literally just one hit and then he waits...this makes it extremely difficult for anyone to intervene as its so unpredictable.







WHY he does it? no idea...

If you KNOW that he hits or pushes "literally out of nowhere" then you have to SHADOW HIM like a hawk! 100% of the time - until this phase is over. I don't care if he hits or pushes while singing Jesus Loves Me - it is just as wrong whether he seems angry when he does it or not. And why he does it - we may never know. What we know is that you, as the responsible adult, must be right there all the time when other kids are around - or don't be around other kids.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william* 
i still havent had an apology


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ldavis24* 
have you apologized yourself because frankly I think that is warranted too.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william* 
i have yes, and ds wanted to too

I understand not forcing apologies that aren't genuine - but regardless of whether ds apologizes and how he does it, YOU are still required to apologize - both that your ds hit his baby but also that you weren't watching closely enough to keep it from happening. It isn't just about ds's wrong; it is about yours too. YOU owe him and his baby an apology completely separate from your son's apology. There are two wrongs (in this case three though I understand his and your son's) and equal number of apologies due.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
Seems some folks have some mighty high expectations of two year olds. And expecting more of an apology than the mom trying to facilitate one from the offending child (which was pretty much rejected by the dad in this case)? That just dumbfounds me. Does it need to be a handwritten formal apology or what?

I don't have higher expectations of an almost three year old. I DO have higher expectations of his twenty-five or thirty or forty year old mother.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spirit Dancer* 
Also if a toddler just hit my dd in the head then his mom brought him over to kiss her sorry I would NOT turn her face to him on the off chance he hit her again.

Me either!!! That kid has just hit her twice; I'm not making it easy for him to get her a third time... THAT seems like bad parenting to me - how would your kid trust you if you lowered her to the kid who just hit you twice?? We are now caring more about the hitter's apology not being able to be completed in the way his mom wants than the baby feeling physically safe??

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie* 
If you DO report and it IS investigated, then the moms who actually witnessed the incident will tell the story from their POV and things will proceed from there.

Yep, and I doubt anyone will ever participate in playgroup with the OP and her son ever again - it is not safe to do so! The cops being called on another parent because the OP didn't do her job of watching her known hitter? Kiss the friendships of all these playgroup moms goodbye - to be called in to testify over this completely ridiculous situation. I'd be so done with anything more than a curt "hello" as we pass in the playground parking lot.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ofwait* 
OP and the update..... Wow, that is all I can say. You are creating a huge scene, your DH is creating a huge scene. Over something that you have second hand and your DH third. I hope that you realize that taking something like that to the police is going to get YOU labeled as the kooks...

This was a situation that was handled badly on both sides, the actions your family is taking now could take this from an unfortunate situation to an out right disaster.... tread carefully.... but really LET IT GO!!!!!

This! Going to the cops with this doesn't make HIM look bad; it makes YOU look bad. Please take a deep breath and let it go. Just walk away from the whole situation.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Here you have a 2.5 year old who you know is prone to hitting right now, and since you're not willing to be 100% vigilant in supervising him around other children I'm wondering what your idea of "dealing with it" is? Apologizing?

I think you owe it to the kids your son is playing with to be 100% on top of supervision, which means, yes, he will have to be glued to you at playdates. If you have to leave the room, Take him with you. Or skip the playdate if it won't be possible for you to watch him the entire time.

You seem hell bent on apologies, but have not mentioned anything about _preventing_ it, which I think is more important.

Yes, preventing it is your #1 priority right now. Apologizing doesn't mean squat if you just let him do it over and over and over.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
And on the issue of involving the police, I'm just floored that you're even considering it. As someone else mentioned, you will inevitably involve everyone at the playdate (as they'll be your witnesses since you didn't actually watch the situation unfold)

you're child is a known hitter and you're refusing to supervise him 100% the time while he's with other children. Do you not see how ugly this has the potential to be? And what a complete and utter waste of resources it is?

I think it really sucks that you guys think this is important enough to deter the police away from catching REAL bad guys. People who use the police (and CPS and such) as a tactic for personal fights are abusing the system and potentially causing harm to people who really need the police for REAL crimes.

Thank you!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william* 
i deal with williams hitting, when it happens.

it doesnt help that my brother had to close the shop down that he inherited from my dad and has been in the family for over 30 years, that my scan revealed that i might not be able to have a normal birth, never mind a homebirthb and that dps step dad who is like a dad to him is dying.








please be gentle with me i feel bad enough about this situation as it is.

I am really, truly sorry that there are so many scary/sad/stressful things in your life right now. I think you are letting all THOSE things cloud your judgment in THIS situation.

And you need to deal with William's hitting BEFORE it happens. If you aren't able or willing to shadow him around other kids then don't take him around other kids until his hitting phase is over.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I'm stunned that you (the OP) think it's appropriate to have your son KISS a child he's just hurt.

I'm sorry, but there's no way I would have lowered my hurt/crying child so that your son could kiss her. That's way beyond the realm of normal.

There are other way for him to say sorry. He can use the words. He can make the sign. You can say the words for him. Before my DD was able to say "sorry" I would say the words while she made the sign.

I think it's ridiculous for you to expect the injured child to accept MORE physical contact with the kid who just hurt her. I don't blame that dad for not lowering her.

Me either.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william* 
when i asked the other mum she said "we-eell.. yes he did push him..." she was reluctant to take sides as such but knew she couldnt lie to me. my son landed over a metre away from the sofa where the incidence took place so he didnt "just" fall back, his legs arent *_that_* long (and yes that is an attempt to lighten things up by joking... *sigh* even if just for myself)

oh the other thing, im saying i was in the kitchen but its kind of open plan-ish so i only had my back turned, if i would have been stood in the exact same place facing the other way i could have seen everything so i wasnt *that* far away iyswim (just get the impression that people think i was completely absent yk?)
i only had to spin round and take two steps and i was there so there wasnt really time for any of the other mums to react.

I guess what I don't understand from reading how you could have seen this all if you turned around is, if the dad really shouted at your son wouldn't you have heard it and come running? Also wouldn't you have heard this supposedly major pushing incident (i.e your son yelling as he fell or something). I guess I just am not so believing that your son was violently pushed as your are describing it.

Also it sounds like you asked "did he push my LO??" to which the guest reluctantly replied yes, is that right? I feel badly that your son fell but really I feel like you are trying to make it sound as though this dad literally shoved him away and it just doesn't add up from all that I've read.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
Honestly, I'm kind of stunned that anyone would think it inappropriate, that is of course unless the child showed that she did not want any more contact. We don't know if that was the case here. If so, then of course that would not be cool. But otherwise, I don't see the problem.

Where I come from a kiss is something that's friendly and done between 2 consensual parties.

If 2 toddlers kiss each other, then that's fine.

I think that using a kiss instead of an actual apology is ridiculous. I think it also teaches inappropriate boundaries.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
Where I come from a kiss is something that's friendly and done between 2 consensual parties.

If 2 toddlers kiss each other, then that's fine.

I think that using a kiss instead of an actual apology is ridiculous. I think it also teaches inappropriate boundaries.

I guess I'm not assuming this was unfriendly or nonconsensual. If it was, then yeah, that would be some serious boundary crossing.

But the OP never said anything about the baby still crying or being afraid or anything (although it's along thread so who knows). And if this baby is anything like my two kids at that age, then once she had stopped crying and calmed down (and remember the OP had taken her child upstairs so some time had passed here) she had likely forgotten about the incident and was ready to move on. IME, babies don't hold grudges.

As far as a kiss being ridiculous, I think that's coming from an adult perspective. This kid is 2 and I'm guessing was just doing what came naturally.

Should mom maybe try to work with him on something a bit less touchy? Perhaps. But you are making what he did sound sort of perverse and aggressive which I just don't understand.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

I see kisses as invasive and involve the other person getting in my personal space. I have a DD who has never liked people coming into her personal space uninvited.

It bug me to no end when other kids want to give her a hug or a kiss because she then pushes them away from her and I get dirty looks from the other parent.

I think it would be much better if the OP said "Jonny would like to kiss her head better. Is that OK". And then the dad could have said no. And then the OP could have used her words to apologize and shown her son what he should have done.

I don't think kisses are an appropriate substitution for an apology.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
Honestly, I'm kind of stunned that anyone would think it inappropriate, that is of course unless the child showed that she did not want any more contact. We don't know if that was the case here. If so, then of course that would not be cool. But otherwise, I don't see the problem.

Of course, I can see how someone might not feel comfortable lowing their baby even if the baby seemed okay with it (although I would), but I would think the parent in that case would at least try to acknowledge and accept the apology somehow. Seems really petty not to IMO and also sets a pretty crumby example for all the children involved.

I wouldn't let a child who just hurt my child hug her or kiss her. I don't want her thinking it is okay for someone to hurt her just as long as they hug or kiss her afterwards.

OP: I think you are blowing things out of proportion. I doubt that many people would just sit there while someone shoved a child roughly. It sounds like you are having trouble accepting your son's part of the blame in this and in his over all pattern of violence that has driven this mother to stop letting her children come into contact with yours. That denial is going to make your son believe his violence is okay and it is going to make the violence occur more frequently until you accept that you need to find a way to gently prevent or stop your son's violence rather than trying to find ways to excuse it.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
I wouldn't let a child who just hurt my child hug her or kiss her. I don't want her thinking it is okay for someone to hurt her just as long as they hug or kiss her afterwards.

I guess I just want to teach my child to accept genuine apologies, practice forgiveness, and not hold grudges. If a child who hurt my child seemed genuinely sorry and wanted to offer a hug and/or kiss and my child seemed open to that, I would see no reason to prevent it. Again, I am talking about consensual actions here.

And I think this is getting way OT here, so that's all I have to say about that







.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
ETA: In what world is an almost 3yo a "baby"???? That's really blowing me away. I'm around alot of 2 to 4 yos and there is a definite change as they come past 2 and start to head towards 3. The baby fades and is replaced by kid. I haven't met a 3yo yet who isn't basically all kid and no baby.

DS2 is 4.25. People who don't know him often guess his age at 2, even though he's quite big. He both looks and acts quite a lot younger than he is. I personally wouldn't call him a baby, because I generally reserve that term for _very_ young children (pre-walking, mostly)...but many people _would_.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I think that using a kiss instead of an actual apology is ridiculous. I think it also teaches inappropriate boundaries.

I've seen kisses (or hugs) being used as apologies, _spontaneously_, by at least half the toddlers I've had dealings with. People can handle it however they want, and I can see someone finding it inappropriate - but it's not ridiculous.


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## bebebradford (Apr 4, 2008)

IF the dad really shoved your son hard I would agree with you being upset. BUT I know I've had to break my two little ones up before and I hold one in one arm which only leaves the other arm to push the other child away.. never hard.. but so that they step backwards. More than likely that's what the father was doing.. IF the child was SHOVED then maybe you should reevaluate the friendship you have with the other mothers in the room.. Shouldn't they have made a big commotion over it?
Another thing.. it drives me BATTY when a toddler repeatedly hits,bites,pinches my kids. I understand they go through those stages, but if it's happening on a REGULAR basis then that child shouldn't be left unattended by the parent. I don't blame the "dad's" wife at all for being mad. If my child kept being hit by another I'd have to stop having playdates with them.


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## mamadebug (Dec 28, 2006)

I have been the mom of the only boy in an all girl play group. And, I had "that" kid - the hitter. And, at 2.5 y.o., he did hit just to get a reaction - he would do it seemingly out of the blue, do it calmly and then just sort of watch what the other kid would do (usually cry). I feel really fortunate that I was surrounded by a group of moms that was really understanding and accepting of my son and never labeled him. However, I think they were willing to be accepting and tolerant of his "developmentally appropriate" stage because I basically was glued to him when we were at play groups. I sat right next to him, moved around with him, caught his arm mid-air when he was about to hit (and sometimes, I missed - he was really fast!). If I had to go to the bathroom or do something, I would ask a specific mom to sit with him while I was gone. She had to be glued to him!

I also completely agree that 2 year olds have poor, poor impulse control. But, I think they are also capable of learning that their behaviors have consequences. After a couple of months of this, and no change, I finally decided that we would leave play group if he hit. We talked about it before we would go in ("we are going to X's house to play. You may not hit. If you hit, we will leave." - keep it simple). And, then when he hit (or tried - I was still glued to him at that point), we left. He was sad and cried, and it took a few times. But, he stopped hitting. If the play group was at our house, we ended it at that point.

My experience is that parents are willing to be forgiving when their kids get hurt - as long as you, the offending child's parent, are on top of it.

In the OP's situation, I think both parents are at fault. It is unfortunate that it has escalated to this point. I would take note of what your role in all of this is, what you can do differently next time, and then just let it go.


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## bebebradford (Apr 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamadebug* 
I have been the mom of the only boy in an all girl play group. And, I had "that" kid - the hitter. And, at 2.5 y.o., he did hit just to get a reaction - he would do it seemingly out of the blue, do it calmly and then just sort of watch what the other kid would do (usually cry). I feel really fortunate that I was surrounded by a group of moms that was really understanding and accepting of my son and never labeled him. However, I think they were willing to be accepting and tolerant of his "developmentally appropriate" stage because I basically was glued to him when we were at play groups. I sat right next to him, moved around with him, caught his arm mid-air when he was about to hit (and sometimes, I missed - he was really fast!). If I had to go to the bathroom or do something, I would ask a specific mom to sit with him while I was gone. She had to be glued to him!

I also completely agree that 2 year olds have poor, poor impulse control. But, I think they are also capable of learning that their behaviors have consequences. After a couple of months of this, and no change, I finally decided that we would leave play group if he hit. We talked about it before we would go in ("we are going to X's house to play. You may not hit. If you hit, we will leave." - keep it simple). And, then when he hit (or tried - I was still glued to him at that point), we left. He was sad and cried, and it took a few times. But, he stopped hitting. If the play group was at our house, we ended it at that point.

My experience is that parents are willing to be forgiving when their kids get hurt - as long as you, the offending child's parent, are on top of it.

In the OP's situation, I think both parents are at fault. It is unfortunate that it has escalated to this point. I would take note of what your role in all of this is, what you can do differently next time, and then just let it go.

I agree 100 percent! As long as you see the mom trying and watching their babe like a hawk during those tough phases you can't really hold it against them... or I can't anyways. Being a mom can be tough, and when I see a momma trying her best but still having a hard time she has my sympathy.


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## a-sorta-fairytale (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I've seen kisses (or hugs) being used as apologies, _spontaneously_, by at least half the toddlers I've had dealings with. People can handle it however they want, and I can see someone finding it inappropriate - but it's not ridiculous.

Yes to this. My nonverbal 19 month old can't say sorry, he can't sign it either. So if someone is hurt (weather he caused it or not) he tries to comfort them with a pat on the back, a hug, or a kiss. When he is sad/hurt we pick him up, hug him, rub his back and kiss him.


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## tireesix (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbbieB* 
That's what I see too.

I really can not understand this thread. Clearly everyone is reading the OP and seeing a very different picture. This thread just seems to be bringing out the momma/poppa bear in everyone

I was reading the update and recent posts while nursing my 2 year old BABY. I kept looking at him and imagining him hitting another baby on the head and remembering all of the times his sister whacked him on the head (or whatever)when he was 1. Momma bear has been there to protect, but she never lashed out at another cub. Momma bear picked up the hurt baby and moved away! Maybe there was a snarl. Never a claw. KWIM?

I'm also thinking about all of the playgroups DD went to when she was 2 and under. It was a group of 4 kids. DD was the youngest, the oldest being 9 months older, the next was 7 months older and then 6 months older. This kind of stuff happened all the time, toddlers being toddlers. We moms helped each other out. We never expected there to never be a problem. We certainly never freaked out when it was our kid that was hurt. We did the best we could when our kid was the aggressor. Sometimes we were distracted and things happened that probably could have been avoided but were human and make mistakes. There was no blame. These kinds of situations are age appropriate.

What's not age appropriate is yelling and crying, pushing and shoving, the silent treatment and threatening someone's job.

OP, I'm sorry that the other family is over reacting and seems to be blaming you and your kid. Not that they are wrong for feeling protective and wronged. Just wrong for being so freaking over the top about it.

OP I think you did the best you could at the time. You may have been to lax with supervising your son while he is in this stage. You will learn from this and do better next time. Talk to your DH and settle him down. Nobody needs to have their job threatened because they had a really bad poppa bear moment.


Love this!

ETA:
My kiddlies have been to groups etc, they have been shoved, bitten (so incredibly hard the marks bruised and lasted for days), hit, had things taken off them, they rarely do the same back but on occasion it has been them who has been the aggressor. They do it to each other, but NEVER have I had to to shove someone elses child or push or even touch in most cases. I grab my child and remove them to safety. IF the other child has grabbed onto a part of my child then I GENTLY extricate my child but that is it.

There is no blame, there is no anger, yeah, I get unhappy that my child has been hurt but there is no anger towards the other child or the other parent (except for in two cases where the parent was actually watching and laughing as their child was hitting on mine).

When I am at a friends house and the friend is busy doing something FOR GUESTS in her house, the least I can do is keep an eye on her child/ren while she is busying herself for me.

Another thing, I have had VERY pro smacking friends who would push one of their own kids away if it were hitting another child, but they would never touch one of my children like that, they simply treat my child as I would treat my child and theirs because there is respect there.

As far as what has been said in the OP, its a shame that it went so over the top but parents have to realise that as much as they would like to protect their child from everything, its simply not going to happen. My cousin as a parent is very much like that, but as I keep saying, you learn to fall before you learn to walk and that is the way life is.


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## baltic_ballet (May 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamadebug* 
I have been the mom of the only boy in an all girl play group. And, I had "that" kid - the hitter. And, at 2.5 y.o., he did hit just to get a reaction - he would do it seemingly out of the blue, do it calmly and then just sort of watch what the other kid would do (usually cry). I feel really fortunate that I was surrounded by a group of moms that was really understanding and accepting of my son and never labeled him. However, I think they were willing to be accepting and tolerant of his "developmentally appropriate" stage because I basically was glued to him when we were at play groups. I sat right next to him, moved around with him, caught his arm mid-air when he was about to hit (and sometimes, I missed - he was really fast!). If I had to go to the bathroom or do something, I would ask a specific mom to sit with him while I was gone. She had to be glued to him!

I also completely agree that 2 year olds have poor, poor impulse control. But, I think they are also capable of learning that their behaviors have consequences. After a couple of months of this, and no change, I finally decided that we would leave play group if he hit. We talked about it before we would go in ("we are going to X's house to play. You may not hit. If you hit, we will leave." - keep it simple). And, then when he hit (or tried - I was still glued to him at that point), we left. He was sad and cried, and it took a few times. But, he stopped hitting. If the play group was at our house, we ended it at that point.

My experience is that parents are willing to be forgiving when their kids get hurt - as long as you, the offending child's parent, are on top of it.

In the OP's situation, I think both parents are at fault. It is unfortunate that it has escalated to this point. I would take note of what your role in all of this is, what you can do differently next time, and then just let it go.


I agree


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## petra_william (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ldavis24* 
I guess what I don't understand from reading how you could have seen this all if you turned around is, if the dad really shouted at your son wouldn't you have heard it and come running? Also wouldn't you have heard this supposedly major pushing incident (i.e your son yelling as he fell or something). I guess I just am not so believing that your son was violently pushed as your are describing it.

Also it sounds like you asked "did he push my LO??" to which the guest reluctantly replied yes, is that right? I feel badly that your son fell but really I feel like you are trying to make it sound as though this dad literally shoved him away and it just doesn't add up from all that I've read.

like i say i was in the kitchen, about 3 metres away from the sofa.
my son hit, the dad shouted no or oi or something like that and virtually atthe same time the kids start crying and i turn round take a few steps and am there, the dad shouts at me. this all happened within like 3 seconds. there was no time for anyone else to react. i know my sons cry . he didnt "just" fall. i also know the mum who i asked about the pushing. i know her well enough to know that her reluctance is more likely to stem from not wanting to make things worse than what they wereand didnt want to quite admit that she saw my son being pushed iyswim.
if he woldnt have pushed him she would have had no problem saying "ih no, he put his hand out to pick the baby up/to take the brush/..." there is no reason why anyone would say yes when he didnt yk?

Originally Posted by Storm Bride
I've seen kisses (or hugs) being used as apologies, spontaneously, by at least half the toddlers I've had dealings with. People can handle it however they want, and I can see someone finding it inappropriate - but it's not ridiculous.

Yes to this. My nonverbal 19 month old can't say sorry, he can't sign it either. So if someone is hurt (weather he caused it or not) he tries to comfort them with a pat on the back, a hug, or a kiss. When he is sad/hurt we pick him up, hug him, rub his back and kiss him.this exactly. i *do* say sorry if ds wont but as he physically cannot utter the words and cannot sign (and this wouldnt even mean anything to the other person anyway as its so rare here) the only way he can apologize is by giving a kiss, usually on the place the other child got hurt. i have neverhad problems with this and the other parent usually finds it quite cute when he does it yk?
the baby was calm and quite happy by the time we came back down. i did say can you give the baby a kiss then to say sorry? i didnt get any acknowledgement from the whatsoever, he just stood there, silent.


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## petra_william (Nov 28, 2007)

anyway, im going to leave this now. its just depressing me more and more... just one more thing for those saying iam being unreasonable about wanting to report the dad. *I* dont. i said to dp that i didnt want to ruing my friendship with her. thats why i rang her... just to get shouted at...









dp is very emotional about things and says things in the heat of the moment which dont always happen. i can understand why he would say it (i felt like doing some unreasonable things to the dad too....)...but its not happened.


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## Beene (May 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bluegoat* 
It's hard to say. He might have been simply trying to break them up, and over-did it a bit. He may not have much experience refereeing children that way, and to him your son is a bigger boy whacking his daughter on the head.

It wasn't the right thing to do, but I would find it hard to judge how bad it was without knowing more about how the dad usually copes.

I agree. When my DS was a newborn and I had him in a carseat at the ped's office, a little kid who was sick ran over and tried to stick his hands in the baby's face. My gut reaction was to block the little boy. True, I didn't push or hit, but it was very firm. Normally, I wouldn't do this to a child and I would be more gentle, but my protective instinct kicked in. If your son is going through this stage an you are aware of it, use your protective instinct and watch him closely. For example, my dog sometimes snaps at other dogs and tries to fight and sometimes not. He just runs around playing. I wouldn't in a million years just stick him inside a dog run and start reading a book because I can't count on him to not cause harm to other dogs there. It stinks, but it is what it is and it's my responsibility.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william* 
anyway, im going to leave this now. its just depressing me more and more...









In case you ever check back here, I just wanted to say please don't let all this get you down. It's so not worth it. The internet is a harsh and cold place sometimes. But in between the accusations and criticism, there was some great advice from some wise and understanding mothers that have been in your shoes. I hope that doesn't get lost, although I can see how it might. Anyway, take care.


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## beckington (Mar 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbbieB* 
That's what I see too.

I really can not understand this thread. Clearly everyone is reading the OP and seeing a very different picture. This thread just seems to be bringing out the momma/poppa bear in everyone

I was reading the update and recent posts while nursing my 2 year old BABY. I kept looking at him and imagining him hitting another baby on the head and remembering all of the times his sister whacked him on the head (or whatever)when he was 1. Momma bear has been there to protect, but she never lashed out at another cub. Momma bear picked up the hurt baby and moved away! Maybe there was a snarl. Never a claw. KWIM?

I'm also thinking about all of the playgroups DD went to when she was 2 and under. It was a group of 4 kids. DD was the youngest, the oldest being 9 months older, the next was 7 months older and then 6 months older. This kind of stuff happened all the time, toddlers being toddlers. We moms helped each other out. We never expected there to never be a problem. We certainly never freaked out when it was our kid that was hurt. We did the best we could when our kid was the aggressor. Sometimes we were distracted and things happened that probably could have been avoided but were human and make mistakes. There was no blame. These kinds of situations are age appropriate.

What's not age appropriate is yelling and crying, pushing and shoving, the silent treatment and threatening someone's job.

OP, I'm sorry that the other family is over reacting and seems to be blaming you and your kid. Not that they are wrong for feeling protective and wronged. Just wrong for being so freaking over the top about it.

OP I think you did the best you could at the time. You may have been to lax with supervising your son while he is in this stage. You will learn from this and do better next time. Talk to your DH and settle him down. Nobody needs to have their job threatened because they had a really bad poppa bear moment.

This is the best post in this thread.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william* 
anyway, im going to leave this now. its just depressing me more and more... just one more thing for those saying iam being unreasonable about wanting to report the dad. *I* dont. i said to dp that i didnt want to ruing my friendship with her. thats why i rang her... just to get shouted at...









.

I understand why the thread probably has you feeling down. It seems like you're going through a lot in your life right now. But as a PP said, there actually is a lot of good advice in some of the posts and I do hope that you can try to be objective enough to see it.

Your son needs you to be glued to him otherwise you may just have this scenario repeated again in the near future.
Best of luck.


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## Aeress (Jan 25, 2005)

Make ds your helper when you need him to be near you so he is safe. Most kids love this and will happily leave play to help Mom.

Just a way to think about ds being glued to you at all times. My dd is getting to this point, she is interested in whacking things- people, trees, toys, the dog etc. Is it age appropriate, yes. Is it appropriate to whack a friend's kid, the dog or a tree, Nope. So, while she gets soft things to throw or other distractions, to keep her out of trouble and everyone safe, I take her into the kitchen when I am preparing snacks. She likes to help me get the cups etc.

Just a thought


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *petra_william* 
i feel bad enough about this situation as it is.

OP, you feel bad about the situation but have you *learned* anything from it?

You now have 12 pages and counting of views on this now. What do you take away from these exchanges?

What will you do next time your son hits a child with an object? Next time the child of the parent he hits gets really upset with you?

I understand you're having a lot going on in your life right now, I'm sorry to hear that. But none of your problems get solved if you can't or won't see your own part in the development of each situation.

Some situations are really totally out of our control, we didn't cause them or contribute to them.

But most situations we have some control in, and if we only see ourselves and our family members as victims... then know that even more rocky times are ahead because we're not taking the chances we have to at least fix OUR parts of what is not working.

Best of luck OP, I really hope maybe when time passes you'll be able to get some useful, positive lessons out of this situation.


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