# I can hear her screaming as I write this..ugh



## ZanZansMommy (Nov 8, 2003)

DH is trying to put DD (11 mos) to sleep She is only used to me. Only wants me & refuses anyone else Sometimes though...I just need a break KWIM?. Last time he tried this she cried for an hour & then vomited







Of course then I went in & she fell asleep--pronto. I know it's O.K. for her to cry seeing as her daddy is holding her, so Why the heck do I feel SO guilty? Has anyone else had to go through the pains of allowing their dc to cry while their spouse takes over nightime duties? my goal is for DH to put her to sleep on the weekends & I'll do the week. Not sure if it'll work


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

I'm not sure if an 11 mo. old will grasp the concept of mama putting her to sleep M-F and dad putting her sleep Sat & Sun.

It will probably be a tough transition every week your nighttime duties are over.

Good luck though.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Maybe you can have your dh do something else that's all his duty, every day of the week. Like give her a bath and get her ready for bed (story, song, etc). Then he can hand her off to you to get her down. You would get a break *every* evening instead of just on the weekends.

Darshani


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## WithHannahsHeart (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *USAmma*
Maybe you can have your dh do something else that's all his duty, every day of the week. Like give her a bath and get her ready for bed (story, song, etc). Then he can hand her off to you to get her down. You would get a break *every* evening instead of just on the weekends.

Darshani


THis sounds just right! Everyone wins in this scenario







. You get your time, baby gets her mama, daddy gets to build his confidence as a parent.


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

when dd was 9 months old i had a commitment 1 night a week. dh was on dinner, bath, and bedtime duty that night. i left a bottle of expressed milk for him, too, in case he needed it.

the first few times were not so great for him. eventually he started walking her all over the house, showing her i wasn't home, assuring her he could comfort her to sleep, and she would go to sleep for him. for several of the evenings i was gone he had to walk her all around the house like this until she made the connection.

maybe you need to go somewhere the first few times. have a tea and look at a book in a bookstore somewhere.

oh, and to answer your question, YES, i felt horribly guilty. but, dh said over and over that dd is just as much his as she is mine and so i shouldn't feel guilty for putting him through that. as far as feeling guilty about dd wanting mommy, she was being comforted by someone she knows and loves, and they have a wonderful father-daughter relationship now.


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## CarmelInWa (Apr 13, 2004)

That's a hard one. I have no profound advice for you. I don't think it's wrong to expect our spouses to be with our kids once in awhile. But how fair is it to our babies for us to expect them to be okay with it? I don't know the answer.

My son is going thru a mommy only phase and it's wearing me down. I have let him cry with daddy for a few minutes just so i can get some composure! Otherwise i loose it and am not a good mom to either of my kids. A woman's breast can only be sucked on so many hours of the day!

Hang in there!


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## ZanZansMommy (Nov 8, 2003)

Thanks for all the suggestions. Unfortunately DH gets home very late M-Th & is not available to help with any of DD's nightly routine. I really just want her to get used to him being able to comfort her & help her sleep. All of her screaming was because she wanted me & not him. She doesn't fall asleep nursing & is actually a great sleeper overall. I just a Mommy break where I can just chill & not have to put her to sleep.

Aprildawn--I think I have to do what you suggested. leave my home & try to relax.

Well she cried for 35 min & eventually fell asleep (she takes longer for me). Dh said it was rough because she kept pulling her hair & face







, slapping him & then she eventually fell asleep most likely due to exhaustion. ..sigh.....


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## sistermama (May 6, 2003)

My dh and I have had about the same arrangement as the one you are trying to set up. He puts ds to sleep about two nights a week and me the rest of the time, and has since ds was about a year old. It was hard at first (for me to hear the crying and know I could pop a breast in and have it end), but it was really worth it. Dh and ds figured out their own way after a couple of times - unique to them, it would never work for me! When you don't have a baby you can just put a crib and have them "self soothe" (which I'm glad we don't!), it can be debilitating to be the one who ALWAYS has to put them too sleep, every night, for years!

I felt guilty too, about listening to him cry, but I think we feel that way because we are such attached mamas and are supposed to feel something when our babies are crying. But, I think that my children should get the opportunity to be just as attached to dh as they are to me. Also I tried to remind myself that crying in itself is not always a "bad" thing, it is when a baby/child is left alone to cry without assistance or comfort that I don't agree with. That is a good suggestion to try getting out of the house, though, too.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

I would personally ask dh to do something else and I would take on the task of putting baby to sleep. If she would fuss in dh's arms, it would be ok, even CIA is ok, but since she even vomited, she sounds like she really wants you, mama!


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:

I would personally ask dh to do something else and I would take on the task of putting baby to sleep. If she would fuss in dh's arms, it would be ok, even CIA is ok, but since she even vomited, she sounds like she really wants you, mama!
ITA! I just don't think she's old enough to get it. Babies are, for the most part, fairly dependent on routine. She's probably confused because she doesn't associate daddy with bedtime.

How about if on the weekends, DH can take her after dinner, and he can play with her, give her a bath, read her a story, etc, and you can just relax and take some mommy time, and then when it's bedtime, you can come and put her down for the night?

Or, maybe *both* of you can be there to put her to bed on the weekends for a while, so that she gets used to her daddy being there. Maybe then she will also start to associate him with bedtime, and you can slowly "wean" yourself off of weekend bedtime duty.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I agree to finding something else during some other time for Daddy to do with baby to give you some time alone. Not only screaming and vomiting but also pulling her hair and face?! She needs her mama.


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## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

If this time is important to you, I agree that you should leave the house at bedtime for a few weeks until they get into their own routine. Going in there after she cries for an hour could make the long-term situation worse; it's not relaxing for you to listen to her crying; and it may also make it harder on Dad to know you're right there and able to "fix" the problem immediately.


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ZanZansMommy*
I really just want her to get used to him being able to comfort her & help her sleep.

If she doesn't, try again in a month or two. IME, there were sensitive periods for daddy sleep, e.g. when dd was wanting to be bounced or walked. There are also sensitive periods for wanting mommy. It's not purely a matter of learning.


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## Matadora (Jul 18, 2003)

I had the same problem right around the same age with both my children. I actually wanted to write and assure you this won't be like this forever. I know you crave your personal time, believe me... I totally understand. But, in the grand scheme of things this time where your child only wants you is so very short. Kids will go through different preferences almost each week and then there will come a time where you WANT to be there and they don't want you. I'm already experiencing that with my 3.5 year old.

A wise woman once suggested to me that I should get a string where each inch represents one year. Then I am to tie knots for the years that important things happened (graduated from high school, college, got married, had children, etc.) Then you tie a knot 18 years out from each child. When you look at the string you realize how short life is and how little time we actually have the care of these children.

I have my days... good golly do I. Those are the days I need to study the string and remember. Do I always remember? No... but I do it enough to have changed my life.


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## babycarrier (Apr 2, 2004)

no advice just a hug. i remember feeling sometimes like i just wanted me back but now at 21 months i miss how MUCH he needed me


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I think it's pretty apparent that the baby wasn't ready for this. She will be ready to have DH put her to sleep in due time. A few months in the life of a child is nothing. I understand your need for a break, but at such cost to your babe? What you are doing is CIO, doesn't matter that it's in Daddy's arms. Your child WILL learn to be comforted by both of you WHEN she is ready, trust those of us who have been there. It's not really fair for you to decide when that is, then put her through that trauma, when there are other ways you can get the me time you need. Crying until she vomits is pretty darn extreme. So is crying for 35 minutes. Do you know what that does to her body temp? Her heart rate? Her respiration? Her immune system? The amounts of stress hormone that are released? Not to mention her sense of trust in her environment, and in her caregivers being there for her needs. Attachment parenting is first and foremost about following baby's cues, can you honestly say that is what you are doing here?

I'm not saying this to make you feel guilty, honestly. I do understand the need for "me time". I just think you need to look at this from a different perpsective. All things come in time. Before you know it you'll have your evenings to yourself. Is it really worth putting your child through this right now? Find "me time" in another time/place that doesn't traumatize your baby.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

First, let me say that if you honestly feel this is not the right time to do this, then don't do it. But if you suspect that your daughter might be ready but needs a little help getting there, read on.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sistermama*
...It was hard at first...Dh and ds figured out their own way after a couple of times - unique to them, it would never work for me! ...But, I think that my children should get the opportunity to be just as attached to dh as they are to me. Also I tried to remind myself that crying in itself is not always a "bad" thing, it is when a baby/child is left alone to cry without assistance or comfort that I don't agree with. That is a good suggestion to try getting out of the house, though, too.

ITA.

Because my husband is often gone for long streches of time, we've been through this more than once. But it's been so worth it. I would do it all again. I saw so many of my sons' peers treat their fathers as guests in their lives for _years_ while remaining firmly attached to their mothers. I did not want that for my son.

When my son was two and we were going through the "only Mom will do" phase for at least the second time, we decided to try counseling. A therapist told me something that really stuck with me. She told me that when I go into "rescue" my son from his father, _I am teaching him that he needs to be rescued from his father_. If Mom doesn't trust this man to take care of him, why should he?

I did the "leave the house" plan myself. Yes, the first few nights were always rough. But within a week or two, they'd have worked out their own deal. It was thrilling to watch the same little boy who a week before had insisted that "only Mommy read!", toddler over to this father and say "Daddy read!"

Now my son is 12 years old and he is equally, and firmly, attached to both of his parents.


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Quote:

What you are doing is CIO, doesn't matter that it's in Daddy's arms.
Do you honestly believe this? I'm totally all about AP - but that dosen't mean that a child has to be attached *only* to the mother. Fathers should have every opportuinity to share as well. While the OP *may* want to consider holding off until her baby seems more ready, I really see nothing wrong with this approach.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Hmmmm, after reading this thread the only thing that really sticks out at me is

A) Mom wants some peace and quiet

B) Baby isn't giving mom peace and quiet

C) All mom had to do is lay with baby for a few moments (from OP) to have peace and quiet

Maybe my opinion doesn't count since I'm a single mom and I always just HAD to do everything....but the end usually justifies the means and I think this is one of those cases where it falls true.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pugmadmama*
First, let me say that if you honestly feel this is not the right time to do this, then don't do it. But if you suspect that your daughter might be ready but needs a little help getting there, read on

ITA.

Because my husband is often gone for long streches of time, we've been through this more than once. But it's been so worth it. I would do it all again. I saw so many of my sons' peers treat their fathers as guests in their lives for _years_ while remaining firmly attached to their mothers. I did not want that for my son.

I agree too! With my first dd I was of the firm belief that she should never be allowed to cry in her infancy, which meant that every time dh held her and she cried, I came running to fix it. And since she was more accustomed to my way of holding her, changing diapers, rocking, whatever, dh never became confident as her caregiver when I wanted to go away for a few hours. To this day he feels awkward when I leave him with the kids, and he won't ever take them anywhere by himself. Just doesn't think he can do it. I feel I robbed him of the chance to be a father, to learn by trial and error just like I had to.

With dd#2 I guess I'm better at reading her cries and so I often will hand her off to dh when he gets home. She does cry, reaches for me, and he will walk with her and pat her and take her to another room where she can't see me. I am not bothered by her crying because I know she's being loved, and she needs to get used to her daddy, too. Besides *I* need some ME time. I have her all day, and I attend to her at night. I don't think it traumatizes her at all. I know the difference between a really bad cry and a fussy cry.

OTOH, at this age dd#2 really, really depends on her routines. It's the only way she knows what's coming next. She *needs* me to put her night diaper on, her night onesie, and take her in the rocker while she holds her blankie and playing the same music, smelling me, having me hold her just so in my arms. When I sit in the rocker she practially closes her eyes before my rear end hits the cushion because she knows it's bedtime. (Wish my oldest was like this-- she fought bedtime so bad!!)

Darshani


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

For me, and I think the other people who have said that this is CIO, it's the length of time and the obviously extreme distress this little one is going through. It is obviously having the same effect on her that crying in a crib has on the babes that are forced to endure that. It doesn't matter that she's in her daddy's arms. At this point, for this child, she is obviously far too traumatized by not having her mommy put her to bed to continue with this.

I agree that daddy should have the opportunity as well, but it's pretty clear that in the OP's situation, her daughter is not ready for daddy to be the one to put her to bed.

Believe me, I understand about wanting a break, I have been the sole person to put my ds to bed for nearly 3 years. At this point, I'm sure he'd be fine with daddy, it's daddy that's the problem. When he was younger, it would have been extremely traumatic for him, especially when he was in a place of needing me a lot, which the OP's daughter obviously is.


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Graceoc*
Do you honestly believe this? I'm totally all about AP - but that dosen't mean that a child has to be attached *only* to the mother. Fathers should have every opportuinity to share as well. While the OP *may* want to consider holding off until her baby seems more ready, I really see nothing wrong with this approach.


While I don't think that it is necessarily as detrimental for a child to cry in another's arms as to let CIO, I don't think that I fully understand why a mama would want her baby to. When we don't honor our children's needs at bedtime, I think that may be blurring the boundaries of CIO.

My husband shares sleep with us like this: we all get in bed, read a dozen or so stories (Dad's job), kisses all around, and nursing. Then, snuggling gets to be done by dad. And, the 2 year old falls asleep. At 11 months, he needed me.

Sometimes he still asks for me to snuggle. Prior to the 2 year mark, it was all mama all the time per his choice. While my husband's feelings might have been a little hurt, he understands now that *this* is what our goal was: a happy, healthy little one who is bonded to both of his parents as he needs to be, in his own time.

Amanda


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

I am going to be the only one that thinks this, perhaps, but I honestly feel there is nothing wrong with the mother being more attached to the baby than the father, especially in the first year. the mother is the one that nurses, therefore the baby will obviously feel the mother has a certain nurturing, caring role. of course, the daddy can too, but it's different. for my son, daddy is all about playing, floor time, kisses and hugs and mommy is all about nursing, kisses and hugs, going to sleep in mommy's arms, playing, and so on. we have different roles and it's just how it's worked out best for us. we haven't sat down and decided we would take on these roles. they just happened naturally after he was born.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
I am going to be the only one that thinks this, perhaps, but I honestly feel there is nothing wrong with the mother being more attached to the baby than the father, especially in the first year. the mother is the one that nurses, therefore the baby will obviously feel the mother has a certain nurturing, caring role. of course, the daddy can too, but it's different. for my son, daddy is all about playing, floor time, kisses and hugs and mommy is all about nursing, kisses and hugs, going to sleep in mommy's arms, playing, and so on. we have different roles and it's just how it's worked out best for us. we haven't sat down and decided we would take on these roles. they just happened naturally after he was born.











You so totally said what I thought but didn't know how to so eloquently put it into words.


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## sistermama (May 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaskyla*
It is obviously having the same effect on her that crying in a crib has on the babes that are forced to endure that. It doesn't matter that she's in her daddy's arms.

Can I possibly be the only mother whose child, as an infant, would often cry inconsolably in my arms??? However, we worked out our own system over time, just as my dh did with ds - once I allowed him the space to do it!! What makes mother's arms necessarily better than father's arms? Is the goal to cease crying using any means?


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Quote:

but I honestly feel there is nothing wrong with the mother being more attached to the baby than the father, especially in the first year.
I don't think there is anything necessarly *wrong* with it if you and your family are ok with it....but for some families that dosen't work out as well.

Maybe my opinion is a bit tainted from having PPD for a year after DD was born - but I *needed* to have DH take over some things. And with him only being home for 3 hours that the kids were awake you can bet that he was in charge - the whole time - (unless nursing was required)

This mom said she needed to have a break - why can't we understand that instead of judge her motives? It sounds like she has givin her everything for the past almost year.....why not start working on a transition *if that what she needs* and yes I said *she* the mother, she has feelings and needs too - and to automatically *always* put babies needs before moms is not in anyway healthy.

So she goes to the next best option and that is daddy - the only other person who loves this child as much as she does - I still don't see how that is so wrong??????


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

wemoon: you made me







!! :LOL

thanks for quoting me







!

and I also wanted to add.. maybe it's wrong in my part, but in our house, we don't like anyone to cry. so if ds cries, we do whatever he needs to be consoled and calm. if he would cry in dh's arms because he wants to sleep with me, I would never let him cry even in his arms because I feel they still feel abandoned. in this case, by mommy. I just think they grow so fast, I feel it's my duty to sacrifice what I have to sacrifice at this time, he's growing and I have to be there for him in whatever way he needs me. Just my opinion...


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## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

But its worth a try

What if for a week you and daddy put dd to sleep together? And then every night you leave the room towards the end and increased that amount of time every night until its just daddy? I think this could work!


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Graceoc*
So she goes to the next best option and that is daddy - the only other person who loves this child as much as she does - I still don't see how that is so wrong??????


I don't think it's wrong. but I'm saying, you and I know the daddy is the next best person, but for the baby, there is no next best person. the baby wants mommy, and baby (I'm putting myself in a baby's shoes, my kids for example) don't care who it is, he just wants mommy. it's the same for them if it's grandma, dad or a friend. they are not thinking about who loves them most. the baby in this case and this is my opinion, needs mama and that's why she was so desperately crying and for baby to be throwing up, it means (again, IMO) that she's in emotional pain.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

First Graceoc







because I HAVEN'T been through PPD, but I have been so depressed before that I have become immobilized and I couldn't imagine also having kids at that same time.

But! Of course that was coming :LOL

I just really have a hard time with the Mom's Have Needs thing. Yes, Mom's do have needs. They have desires that are so far supressed that they've faded into nothing. One of those desires for MANY of us is to bear children. Some of us here do everything, hope, beg, pray...ANYTHING to bear children. But to then later push off our children's calls for help (screams! for help)??? How long do we have with our most precious little people? I looked through photo albums the other day, I started crying because my babies were so grown. I could scarcely remember them being under a year. But the times I did remember were so sweet. I wouldn't want one of the times I remember to be how my child screamed for an hour for me, and then puked because I wouldn't come.

I have GREAT desires, HUGE desires. But the time will come when I can act upon them. I'm in the Mother phase of my life right now.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wemoon*
I have GREAT desires, HUGE desires. But the time will come when I can act upon them. I'm in the Mother phase of my life right now.

























you are so right! I am not talking about PPD cases, because those are separate cases that I think yes, when you need a break, you need it and you have to take it. BUT when it's something else, I think the child always comes first. heck, sometimes (I will admit this to you all) I wish I could put on my Friends DVD and have a cigarrette! but I don't act on it, sure it would relax me, but I have children that would be hurt by my actions so as a mother, it's my job to put my child first and say "no, no cigarretes". kwim? I was never a chain smoker so this is just an example (I didn't want you to think I was :LOL)


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## Island Mommy (Mar 26, 2003)

Your dd will be fine. In fact, she will be more than fine. She has 2 parents who love her dearly and are willing to spend every night caring for her and loving her as she goes to sleep.

Trust yourself and remember that parenting is a continuous process. If your child is raised in a caring and loving environment it will far outweigh the small difficulties along the way. If you need your dh to help you with bedtime then let him. If it's difficult to listen to her cries, go for a walk. Take a deep breath and swing your arms and remind yourself what a great mother you are. And you are.

It can be difficult to trust yourself when people around you have different opinions. Give yourself time to think about your situation when you're not tired and your dd is not crying. If you determine that the best thing for your family is to have your dh put your dd to bed 2 nights/week, then that is the best thing for your family.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Well, I think you can be fully in your "mother phase" and still need a break two nights a week.

That watching tv and smoking are being compared, however loosely, with a child being cared for by their _father_ is nearly unbelievable to me. And very, very sad.


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## ComaWhite (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:

)
A) Mom wants some peace and quiet

B) Baby isn't giving mom peace and quiet

C) All mom had to do is lay with baby for a few moments (from OP) to have peace and quiet
Thats what Im reading too..... maybe Im missing something?

Quote:

know it's O.K. for her to cry seeing as her daddy is holding her, so Why the heck do I feel SO guilty?
Is it ok that she is _crying for you_ but because her dad is holding her, its somehow not so bad?

I'm just not understanding what you are getting at here.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

It's one thing to have a child who is inconsolable, under any circumstances, crying in your arms. After all, if there is literally no way to stop the crying, what difference will it make? That is hardly the case here.

This is "cry it out" by its most obvious definition. It is deliberately withholding what the baby needs, at GREAT distress to the baby, for the sake of the parents' convenience (when there are several alternative ideas for meeting mama's legitimate need for some space). Most people here who advocate some "gentle" forms of crying are not referring to 35 minutes of screaming/wailing nor are they ever suggesting that baby should be allowed to cry so hard he/she vomits, while the solution to the crying is hiding out in the living room. Frankly, I'm shocked and extremely disappointed that anybody on this board would say what the OP is doing is "okay". Oh sure, it will work. After a few nights a week of screaming herself into exhaustion she will give up, like all the other CIO babies, and become the dream baby ParentsPlace poster child.

Attachment Parenting is about responding to your baby's cues. Can anybody point out how that is happening here?

As for the "baby needs to be attached to Daddy" line....well, babies also need to learn to walk, talk, and poop on a potty. And they will when they are ready. My child is VERY attached to her father, and we sure never had to go through that sort of trauma to get her that way. Why is putting baby to bed two measly nights a week considered THE way to get baby attached to daddy? How about daddy spends lots of playtime with baby, talks baby for walks? Changes baby's diapers (maybe not the funnest job for the parents, but equally interactive with the child)? Do some of you honestly believe that the only way to get baby attached to daddy is put her through this trauma?

_It's perfectly natural for babies to be attached to their mamas at certain stages of their development and they DO grow out of it when they are ready._

I'm just really saddened and disappointed. I want to help this mama. I don't want to judge her or make her feel bad. Personally, I think she knows in her gut that something is wrong. I completely validate her desire to have some "me" time...but this just goes against everything we stand for here and I cannot in good conscience, support this method. There have been some great alternative suggestions, and I hope they keep coming. Obviously, the OP will do as her heart tells her, but perhaps this will give her soemthing to think about. ZanZansmommy:


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

I have to agree. one thing is the baby fussing with daddy, and the other is a baby actually THROWING UP because she is in emotional distress and needs mama. this is just my opinion, my babies have never reached a point of throwing up when crying, and my daughter has cried very strongly a couple times in the last three years (when she has fallen or she is sad) but she has never reached that point. I would be worried if she ever threw up crying, though, but that's just me.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pugmadmama*
Well, I think you can be fully in your "mother phase" and still need a break two nights a week.

That watching tv and smoking are being compared, however loosely, with a child being cared for by their _father_ is nearly unbelievable to me. And very, very sad.

Yup, I agree. I'm in my *mother phase* and relish in the breaks that I get...BUT, I'm a Mother before I am anything else. There have been LOTS of wonderful ideas on how mom can get some me-time, it shouldn't have to involve crying in such desperation, and then during your me-time coming to this forum to discuss how guilty you feel??? Maybe I just have a different concept of life, but my kids ARE my me-time! Essentially they are my life right now. Yes, I have other things I enjoy doing, and I DO love having time alone.

So, to the OP... Can dad take baby for a walk, a car ride, to the park, out for a treat, to the library, shopping....anything other than this obviously detrimental sleep/crying thing? Can YOU go out, while dad has the baby at home?

Yes, babies cry. They will cry in mom's arms and dad's arms. It has been stated already, but I feel the need to reiterate....this is SO NOT obviously the case. This crying could be put to a stop had mom just went to care for her child.

The smoking thing was not related to the baby being cared for by the father. It was related to a DESIRES thing. The two are about as seperate as one thing can get!


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wemoon*
The smoking thing was not related to the baby being cared for by the father. It was related to a DESIRES thing. The two are about as seperate as one thing can get!

thank you. I wanted to clarify this because I was misunderstood. I meant yes sometimes I have the DESIRE to do this, but I don't because my kids come first. I was not comparing both actions. I was just giving my example.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Some suggestions:

When DD was a babe, she was very content in her sling (or stroller, when she was around your baby's age) and would often go to sleep. DH used to take her for a long walk. She never cried, usually napped, and they would be gone for about an hour or more. It gave me a really nice break.

If you do really need DH to be there for bedtime, how about trying a gradual, gentle approach? First, when you nurse your baby to sleep, have DH lie there with you. Do this every night until baby gets really used to DH being there. You can also have him do something comforting, like rub baby's back while she nurses. When that routine is firmly established, you can try limiting nursing time..wait until baby is just about asleep, then unlatch while daddy still rubs her back. if she gets really agitated, offer the breast again. repeat. eventually she will associate the back rubbing and his presence with sleep.

HTH.

...oh, i just read that your DH is not around most evenings. well, this is going to be tough all around. if there is one thing all creatures need to learn it is repitition and consistency. i'm afraid all you are going to do is confuse the babe...is there really no other way you can think of to get time alone and have dh spend some time with baby?


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## artgirl (May 17, 2002)

a wise mama gave me some advice once and maybe this will help. How about instead of just throwing dad in cold turkey, after baby has been used to you putting her to bed for so long that you TRANSITION. Maybe someone else has posted this, I stopped reading through all of them but here's the idea. BOTH of you put dd to bed for awhile. Let her get used to having dad in the room first. And explain to her that it's okay for daddy to put her to sleep. Give her a little advanced warning to let her start processing the info ahead of time so she's not taken by surprise. I think even really young babies can understand some of this when it's explained. After a few nights of having dad in the room then you leave part way through... then maybe dad can eventually do it all alone.
I hear you about needing a break!! But maybe there's a more gentle way of getting that space and time for yourself. I'm disappointed that some of the mamas posting here are so "black and white" about this issue and not very supportive of your needs.







:
I think it's good to know your limits and take care of yourself a little too. You're a better mama for it and everyone's limits are different.


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Quote:

I'm disappointed that some of the mamas posting here are so "black and white" about this issue and not very supportive of your needs.

Quote:

I think it's good to know your limits and take care of yourself a little too. You're a better mama for it and everyone's limits are different.


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

When my daughter was that age she went through a sort of seperation (sp?) anxiety phase. It was very difficult for me because if I was out of her sight she would begin to cry for me and I felt *very* tired at times! I was not even able to go to the toilet without a baby on my lap - yes this was a funny sight Im sure...









During the day she was at my side or in my arms constantly. It became hard when this went on for days at a time and I had no time to myself at all. It was exhausting!
At night it was the same. The only way she would fall asleep is if I was either nursing her or if I was holding her or lying next to her in our bed so our bodies touched. It wasn't easy for me as my dh also worked late many nights during the week as well as weekends. 99% of the time I would fall asleep with her becasue I was so tired by that time that having time to myself after she was asleep was not even a option.

I do know how you feel. I also understand that while you are in the moment its difficult to appreciate that This Too Shall Pass - but it does.

My daughter is now 4yrs old and is an amzing, confident and well adjusted little girl. I have NO doubt that its because I was there for her *whenever* she needed me - even when I felt as though I had no more energy to give.

My son is now 8 months old and he is almost exactly the same as your 11 month old. He is VERY attatched to me and at night he will only go to sleep if I nurse him. I have learnt to cherish this time. My dd weaned herself when she was 2,5 yrs and by 3,5 yrs she had decided she wanted her own bedroom. I missed nursing her and having her sleep in the family bed with us. I missed watching her fall asleep and hearing her breathe as I fell asleep. I realised too late that how quicky children grow up and how lucky I was to have nursed her and share a family bed with her. I wish I had this insight during the rough times when I felt as though my energy was being sucked dry and all I wanted was a break!

Now that I see things through new eyes, I find myself honouring myself in other ways. Bathtime for me borders on the sacred and my dh knows that this is where I relax and indulge in myself. Sometimes its an elaborate affair with candles and essential oils and herbal tea and a good book. Other times its music and chocolate - but its always for me. Perhaps it may help you to choose some alternative time where you can enjoy being alone or free from having to be responsible for other people so you can recharge yourself. I honestly believe that as mothers we need to look after ourselves and give back to ourselves... but I dont believe it should ever be at the expense of our children.

Also... by the sounds of things I dont believe that you are getting any "me" time while your dh tries to put your child to sleep. It sounds as though you are stressed out and worried and feeling guilty and sad. Trust your gut mama - thats what makes us strong. We know when there isn't something right. Listen to the part of you that feels that there is something wrong and go with it.

This is NOT a dire situation in which its either this or nothing. You CAN have the time you need and your child CAN have the mama she needs. Its all about sacrifice and rearranging perceptions.

Good Luck ...


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## gracesmom0801 (Jul 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Graceoc*
Do you honestly believe this? I'm totally all about AP - but that dosen't mean that a child has to be attached *only* to the mother. Fathers should have every opportuinity to share as well.

I agree with Grace. One of the major aspects Dr. Sears states about attachment parenting is "crying in the arms of someone who loves you is not the same as crying it out." He also says that if you resent something, change it. If this is something that you need to maintain balance (also an important AP principle) and to remain a happy, giving, AP mama, by all means, do what you need to be a good mama! This is tough because your dh isn't available during the week, but she will get used to being loved and attached to another parent. Attachment parenting is just that......that's why it's not called attachment mothering.
All of this was said not to offend anyone, just to show support to another stressing mama!


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## Matadora (Jul 18, 2003)

Now wait a second here... the OP came to this forum because she has the desire to be supported and given advice. This obviously was bothering her, else she wouldn't have written in desperation.

To attack her in her choice to try and have her DH work with the bedtime routines won't help - it may actually make it so she won't ever want to ask a question here again.

I think the thing to stress here is that we are all mothers (or soon to be mothers) who if not walked a mile in her shoe, can obviously see that there is a problem here. I can't tell you how many times I would have liked a break and if it hadn't been for the support I found here and similar forums I'm not sure if I would have made the choices I made. I have absolutely no support from my family with regard to my lifestyle and although my friends support it, they don't practice it themselves and often have no advice as to what I can do.

So, instead of slamming her for dealing with her problem in a non-AP way or even not the way you would have dealt with it, let's get some perspective and realize the original reason she posted here in the first place... and that was to get advice and help and cyber hugs.

Many of you posted that you don't have the same problem with your baby and DH or you haven't necessarily felt the driving need to escape every once in awhile. AND personally... I think this is the main reason here. She said her DH gets home quite late most nights of the week... meaning she is dealing with her child without a break on those days. She is desperate, for goodness sake, to have a break. I've been there. I have two children who went through periods clinging to me and crying mercilessly when DH even tried to hold them... not to mention the whole bedtime routine thing. Talk about NEVER having a break.

So... let's address that issue and move forward and help her with finding some time and dealing with the bedtime battle appropriately. Making her feel worse about what has happened serves no purpose.

Kay


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## gracesmom0801 (Jul 22, 2004)

I forgot to add.....if your gut instinct is telling you to go with your baby, follow your instinct. It IS your #1 indicator if what you're doing is right. I started night-weaning my dd last night. But I KNOW that it is the right thing to do for her, for me, for dh, and for our new baby (I'm due in April). I followed my instinct and started this process when I really felt it was right for my family. Best of luck with this difficult process! I'll be thinking of you!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gracesmom0801*
One of the major aspects Dr. Sears states about attachment parenting is "crying in the arms of someone who loves you is not the same as crying it out." He also says that if you resent something, change it.

Please tell me that I'm misunderstanding you....do you honestly believe that crying until baby vomits is EVER okay???? Do you think that just b/c daddy is holding baby, that sitting by and letting her scream and wail unconsolably (when YOU have caused her distress and YOU have the key to end it?) has ANYTHING to do with Sears' message or Attachment Parenting? You really believe that expecting a baby to go cold turkey from nightnursing is in ANY WAY respectful of baby's needs? Does Sears not emphasize following baby's cues? How could baby possibly be more clear?

I'm almost at the point of tears right now that any mama on this board could think that these methods have ANYTHING to do with attachment parenting.

And, btw, I have not seen anybody flame the OP. She is not on trial here. The technique of allowing a baby to Cry-It-Out most certainly is on trial, and given the advocacy this board maintains (check out the link in my sig if you're confused) I think it is MOST important for anybody reading this thread to know that this is NOT at all attachment parenting.

And nobody yet has suggested that the OP is wrong to want some time to herself, to refresh and recharge. Nobody. We're just saying: this isn't the best way to go about getting it (and as others have pointed out, she obviously isn't getting the mental break she needs if she's worried about her baby). I have nothing but concern for the OP, as this is obviously weighing heavily on her mind, and I have made some suggestions as have others.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Thank you Piglet, I was wondering what to say after these last few posts, you said it wonderfully.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
Please tell me that I'm misunderstanding you....do you honestly believe that crying until baby vomits is EVER okay???? Do you think that just b/c daddy is holding baby, that sitting by and letting her scream and wail unconsolably (when YOU have caused her distress and YOU have the key to end it?) has ANYTHING to do with Sears' message or Attachment Parenting? You really believe that expecting a baby to go cold turkey from nightnursing is in ANY WAY respectful of baby's needs? Does Sears not emphasize following baby's cues? How could baby possibly be more clear?

I'm almost at the point of tears right now that any mama on this board could think that these methods have ANYTHING to do with attachment parenting.

And, btw, I have not seen anybody flame the OP. She is not on trial here. The technique of allowing a baby to Cry-It-Out most certainly is on trial, and given the advocacy this board maintains (check out the link in my sig if you're confused) I think it is MOST important for anybody reading this thread to know that this is NOT at all attachment parenting.

And nobody yet has suggested that the OP is wrong to want some time to herself, to refresh and recharge. Nobody. We're just saying: this isn't the best way to go about getting it (and as others have pointed out, she obviously isn't getting the mental break she needs if she's worried about her baby). I have nothing but concern for the OP, as this is obviously weighing heavily on her mind, and I have made some suggestions as have others.

this whole post is just perfect. I would not add or delete ANYTHING to explain the way I feel.


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## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
Please tell me that I'm misunderstanding you....do you honestly believe that crying until baby vomits is EVER okay???? Do you think that just b/c daddy is holding baby, that sitting by and letting her scream and wail unconsolably (when YOU have caused her distress and YOU have the key to end it?) has ANYTHING to do with Sears' message or Attachment Parenting? You really believe that expecting a baby to go cold turkey from nightnursing is in ANY WAY respectful of baby's needs? Does Sears not emphasize following baby's cues? How could baby possibly be more clear?

I'm almost at the point of tears right now that any mama on this board could think that these methods have ANYTHING to do with attachment parenting.

And, btw, I have not seen anybody flame the OP. She is not on trial here. The technique of allowing a baby to Cry-It-Out most certainly is on trial, and given the advocacy this board maintains (check out the link in my sig if you're confused) I think it is MOST important for anybody reading this thread to know that this is NOT at all attachment parenting.

And nobody yet has suggested that the OP is wrong to want some time to herself, to refresh and recharge. Nobody. We're just saying: this isn't the best way to go about getting it (and as others have pointed out, she obviously isn't getting the mental break she needs if she's worried about her baby). I have nothing but concern for the OP, as this is obviously weighing heavily on her mind, and I have made some suggestions as have others.









Bears repeating once again. I've found myself in situations like that and been conflicted and I appreciate the advice Piglet has given. I recognize now why I was conflicted and will look for other ways to give me me time (unfortunately, this includes slacking off at work, as I am now doing!)


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

I saw so many of my sons' peers treat their fathers as guests in their lives for years while remaining firmly attached to their mothers. I did not want that for my son.
Me too, and me neither. ITTTTTA.

I think the suggestion of putting her to bed together then gradually phasing out your presence is a great one. I also think that your goal is a good one and a reasonable one, and can indeed be accomplished. Maybe you just need to go a little more slowly.

I feel strongly about both parents being "able" to do everything, with the obvious exception of nursing. With that in mind, my husband and I have alternated putting DD to bed since she was a newborn. It is wonderful to be able to hand over bedtime "duty" at the end of a long day and to know that she is peacefully being rocked to sleep by her father. They have a very close relationship and she can pretty much be comforted by him just as well as by me. He is not just a playmate and rough-houser who hands the baby back when she cries and doesn't know how to nurture her....he is a full partner in parenting.

I feel we are building the foundation for true closeness between DD and her father in years to come. For those who seem to be saying that it's natural and right for mama always to be the comforter and nurturer...how many of you have a dad or know dads who never are on the "inside" with their kids, who can't express themselves with their kids, who are distant from them, while mom is overburdened and totally "needed out"? A lot, I bet. Is that what you want for your family?

I think many mothers, consciously or not, sort of want to be the "favorite" and the "only." It is very understandable--we give so much, and if we are SAHMs, this is our job! We want to be the best at it. And yet I think reinforcing this is not healthy--for mom, for dad, for the marriage, for the child. Not only that, IMO it is giving in to old and moldy stereotypes that do not serve us well.

As an aside, I am bothered by the way people constantly imply that crying, any crying, is terribly detrimental to a baby. Many of us have had babies who just cried, period, and to always be reading about how the crying baby's hormones are raging out of control, her physiology is in crisis, etc etc, is a real guilt-producer and not very helpful. I think it's safe to say that no one wants to hear her child cry.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
As an aside, I am bothered by the way people constantly imply that crying, any crying, is terribly detrimental to a baby. Many of us have had babies who just cried, period, and to always be reading about how the crying baby's hormones are raging out of control, her physiology is in crisis, etc etc, is a real guilt-producer and not very helpful. I think it's safe to say that no one wants to hear her child cry.


so informing formula feeding mothers of the risks of ff'ing should not be done because it is a guilt-producer? sometimes we don't want to hear the truth, but it's the truth.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

The "facts" about the "damage" caused by crying are not anywhere NEAR as black and white as those about FF vs. BF.

Most FFers have a choice not to FF. Sometimes, unless we are supernatural supermoms whose perfect, noncolicky, non-high needs babies who are eternally and forever happy, never overtired, never hungry, and never overstimulated, we do not have a choice about whether our babies cry.

I am not in favor of crying, of course!...but I think to constantly imply that a crying baby= a damaged baby is very insidious.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
As an aside, I am bothered by the way people constantly imply that crying, any crying, is terribly detrimental to a baby. Many of us have had babies who just cried, period, and to always be reading about how the crying baby's hormones are raging out of control, her physiology is in crisis, etc etc, is a real guilt-producer and not very helpful. I think it's safe to say that no one wants to hear her child cry.

I know that I've said in this thread already, that inconsolable crying is MUCH different than crying that can be taken care of by mom tending to her child. Babies do get colic, babies sometimes just cry for no reason. But from what I have gathered from the OP this was not a case of inconsolable crying.

I do not think that crying=damaged child UNLESS it is crying for the sole purpose of *they'll get used to it, they'll get over*. Crying is actually good for everyone, babies and adults, but crying till they puke???? I'm just not falling for it.


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

I've been following this thread....

ME personally, I would not let my dd cry like that if I could help it. I would rather nurse her for a few moments and get her sleep so that we as a family could enjoy the rest of the evening, and I could get my break guilt free.

Babies cries are disturbing to the mother for a reason. They are disturbing because the mother instinct is telling the mom to take care of the baby and go meet the needs of the child. (yeah, I've read the Continuum Concept one to many times.







)

But, this is not about me, and what I would do.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
The "facts" about the "damage" caused by crying are not anywhere NEAR as black and white as those about FF vs. BF.

Most FFers have a choice not to FF. Sometimes, unless we are supernatural supermoms whose perfect, noncolicky, non-high needs babies who are eternally and forever happy, never overtired, never hungry, and never overstimulated, we do not have a choice about whether our babies cry.

I am not in favor of crying, of course!...but I think to constantly imply that a crying baby= a damaged baby is very insidious.

yes, I agree. BUT I feel this particular case, is about letting the baby cry and be distressed BY CHOICE. when if the mothers held the baby, the crying would stop. When crying can be avoided, then I am all for avoiding cries. my children never cry very much at all and I am not super woman. the times they have cried, it's because there is absolutely nothing that will calm then. THEN I accept crying in arms is ok. but never will I choose to let dd or ds cry in my husband's arms when me holding them would prevent the cry. kwim?


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Quote:

But, this is not about me, and what I would do.
EXACTLY!

I think it is great that there are so many of you out there who are so blessed to be able to find other ways to meet your needs - ways in which you don't have to 'choose' between your needs and your babies 'desires'. But that is not the case with the OP or many others of us.

I am against CIO - but I really, honestly do *not* see this as comparable to what I understand CIO to be....which is to leave a child alone in a room to cry until they fall asleep, with no soothing, no comforting, no nothing. THIS IS NOT WHAT SHE IS DOING!!!!

I will fully admit that this baby is crying because she would rather have mommy hold her. But you know what......sometimes mommy can't hold her! (for whatever reason, even if that means she is just too tired, stressed, overwhelmed, ect....) Why is that so hard to get over???? Are you saying that we should give our children everything they ever want just because? We are not talking about a newborn or an infant - we are talking about a 1 year old - and yes I do believe that age matters. Both because it means the mom has already put in ALOT to meet her babies needs and could possible being hitting a major burnout *and* because as baby is older she can more readily accept comfort from daddy. We can't all predict how things will be - would it have been better to gradually introduce daddy as a comforter over a long course of time? Probably....but that didn't happen and for the sake of this mother it needs to happen now!

Even Dr. Gordon has said that after age 1 crying for nightweaning is something that 'can' be done (for those of you who need to follow all the 'AP' rules...)

I really don't like the 'Almighty AP' vibe that I am getting from this thread......We (as in the people here at MDC) are all doing our best as mothers - PERIOD! This mother is going through a rough patch....and if you have never been there then I suggest you really don't know what it is like. I do think offering alternatives is a *great* idea (the idea of perhaps starting out together and then mom leaving isn't bad.....but that would have never worked with my DD - my presence *at all* if I was not holding her just made it worse....) but not at the expense of making this mom out to be evil.

So a great big














to the OP - I hope you, your DH and your DD are able to work something out, it will get better - I promise!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Thank you for the kind words of support, ladies. My emotions tend to run high these days, being so PG and all. I hope I haven't hurt anybody here personally, especially the OP! (ZanZan:







). I'm just really passionate about this subject.

Now...I feel as though there are a few different issues that are getting mixed up here.

1) *Should babies be only attached/dependent on their mothers?* I can't argue with those who say they want DH to be equally "useful" as a parent. And I heartily agree that families where fathers play no role tend to have sons who treat their fathers as "guests in their lives"...but I would argue that having DH put baby to bed 2 nights a week is just the tip of the iceberg in resolving such an issue, don't you think?

2) *Is crying always wrong?* My heart goes out to mamas who dealt with colic and other conditions that left them with a truly inconsolable baby. This is most certainly NOT the same thing as CIO, which is willful creation of the situation.

3) *Should a DH be able to put baby to sleep?* Well, as loraxc described, my DH did all aspects of childcare from day one, except nursing, though there were times when DD could only be consoled by me, and than he handed her over. Still, he did as much rocking/dancing to sleep as I did. I ended up taking over when laying down and nightnursing became part of our routine, and now DD would not be able to go to sleep with just DH. However, she is 2 years old, and we are planning a "role reversal" for when I am SAHM and DH is WOH. This will be accomplished slowly and gently as a gradual transition over time, as others here have described, and she is definitely old enough to understand what's happening.

4) *Should mommies get "me" time?* Absolutely! I haven't seen anybody here claim the OP has no right to feel the way she does, nor that she is undeserving of a break!

It seems to me that these issues are being confused with the technique of CIO. They are mutually exclusive, and there are solutions to all of them that don't involve traumatizing both mama and baby.


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Piglet -

Quote:

3) Should a DH be able to put baby to sleep? Well, as loraxc described, my DH did all aspects of childcare from day one, except nursing, though there were times when DD could only be consoled by me, and than he handed her over. Still, he did as much rocking/dancing to sleep as I did. I ended up taking over when laying down and nightnursing became part of our routine, and now DD would not be able to go to sleep with just DH. However, she is 2 years old, and we are planning a "role reversal" for when I am SAHM and DH is WOH. This will be accomplished slowly and gently as a gradual transition over time, as others here have described, and she is definitely old enough to understand what's happening.
I think the reason your posts have hit such a cord with me is because obvisoulsy you have *not* been in the same situation as the OP. You are blessed to have a DH that is around ALOT and able to help out and do all those other things to establish a bond. From what the OP said her DH does not have those opportuinites available to him. He works late and often and this is one of the *few* times he is around to help - and she needs to be able to take advantage of the help when it is there.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Graceoc*
your needs and your babies 'desires'.

I think you've got this statement turned around. It is the *baby's needs* and the *mom's desires*. As adults we are the ones have to make sacrifices because we can more easily intellectualize and understand why something is happening. A child has a limited ability to do this. There is also a huge difference between giving a baby/child everything she wants and giving that same baby/child all the love, comfort and attention she needs.

A 1yo is still a baby and I would not expect her to understand that Mom just needs a break so Dad is taking over for now. She may learn that Daddy can love and care for and comfort her, which is wonderful, but she may also be learning that Mom will not be there when she is needed. Why does attachment to Dad have to be at the expense of attachment to Mom? There has got to be a better way.


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Quote:

I think you've got this statement turned around. It is the baby's needs and the mom's desires. As adults we are the ones have to make sacrifices because we can more easily intellectualize and understand why something is happening. A child has a limited ability to do this. There is also a huge difference between giving a baby/child everything she wants and giving that same baby/child all the love, comfort and attention she needs.
No, actually I worded it that way for a reason. The babies 'need' is for 'all the love, comfort and attention she needs' her desire is for her mother to provide that for her rather then her father. I can't speak for the OP - but I for one can not contiue to 'sacrifice' with no reprieve.

Quote:

but she may also be learning that Mom will not be there when she is needed
Again I can't speak for the OP but I am there for my baby all day as a SAHM and all night as a co-sleeping, night nursing mom - I highly doubt that one hour a day - spent with the only other person who loves her as much as I do doing everything they can to sooth her - is going to ruin that attachment. And if it does, then I don't even know why I bother with AP...I might as well throw her in daycare all day and sit and eat bon bons....


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

-


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## sistermama (May 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
It is the *baby's needs* and the *mom's desires*.

Who gets to define what a 1 year olds needs are as opposed to what their desires are? When a child is an infant, they are one and the same, but at 1, ds had plenty of desires that were certainly not needs.


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ZanZansMommy*
DH is trying to put DD (11 mos) to sleep She is only used to me. Only wants me & refuses anyone else Sometimes though...I just need a break KWIM?. Last time he tried this she cried for an hour & then vomited







Of course then I went in & she fell asleep--pronto. I know it's O.K. for her to cry seeing as her daddy is holding her, so Why the heck do I feel SO guilty? Has anyone else had to go through the pains of allowing their dc to cry while their spouse takes over nightime duties? my goal is for DH to put her to sleep on the weekends & I'll do the week. Not sure if it'll work









It seems as though this mama is obviously stressed out - do you really think that continuing to do something that stresses out the whole family is productive? Suggesting alternatives is viable and completely apppropriate...

No not everyone has been in the same situation, but I dont think that its a far cry to assume most of us have had children who at one point or another wants/needs/desires mommy when we feel as though we are depleted and want/need/desire a break.

I think the most productive approach would be to find a way to give everyone what they need. Again, I dont think ZanZan is getting much "me" time during the time her child is in distress with her dh. At the end of the day she is the only person who can decide what is best for her baby and for herself and I think she came here for some helpful suggestions and support.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I think we all have enough common sense to discern the difference between a 1yo's needs and wants. A 1yo does not need the latest toy or the candy bar. The 1yo does need to know that Mom will be available all the time. If you reinforce this now, she will be more confident and independent later. If you try to sever this attachment too soon, you will have a different outcome. All babies are different and come to the stage of greater independence at different times. Rather than going by age, you need to go by the individual baby's temperament and personality.

I would agree that it is the baby's desire rather than need if she were just fussing or even crying a little bit. But, we are talking a baby who is screaming, pulling at her hair and face and throwing up. This is not just a little distress. I would say that she is very obviously expressing an emotional need for her mother. Babies and children go through various phases or stages when they are more or less attached to a particular person. If at the time that they need to be attached to that person and that person is not available, I would fear they would learn not to get attached.

I was a single mother for 9 years with my older ds and am a virtual single parent with my baby now because my dh is a Marine and gone a lot. Right now he is deployed to the South Pacific for at least 6 months. So, I know about being overwhelmed and burned out. If you need a break and your dh can't help you, try to find someone else who can. A family member, a friend, a teenager who babysits even just for an hour, as long as your baby isn't left screaming for you.

With this method of having Dad hold baby while she screams for mom, do you think she'll become attached to dad in the true sense of the word or do you think she might come to resent dad for physically restraining her from her mom?

I think many of you are blurring the line between a little bit of crying and fussing and the type of behaviour that signals real distress.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raven*

I think the most productive approach would be to find a way to give everyone what they need. Again, I dont think ZanZan is getting much "me" time during the time her child is in distress with her dh. At the end of the day she is the only person who can decide what is best for her baby and for herself and I think she came here for some helpful suggestions and support.


Agreed Raven. And I am sorry to the OP if some of my posts were too intense.

I just find it quite amazing that there would be no other choice other than to let a child cry like that to get ME-time.

I hope some of the suggestions found in here have been worthwhile. One other thing that I did with my kids, was YES, I did put them in daycare one day a week so that I could peacefully get shopping and other errands done. I did it on a barter with the daycare provider, where I go and help her out with getting all her kids outside for playtime or I will take her DD if she needs me to. This worked out really well, and everyone got something they needed.


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## Peony (Nov 27, 2003)

I'm going to share my experience in hopes that it may help the OP. My DH works alot, many nights he doesn't get home until really late. I know what it is like to be burned out. I've been there too many times, I am the only one who can put dd to sleep, I was so resentful of that fact for a while. I would of loved more than anything on some nights to give dd to dh and have him deal with her. She never went to sleep easily, still never does,is not a great sleeper anyway and has to be nursed to sleep by me. I remember thinking I just couldn't take it anymore. There was some nights I was so angry at dd, it was not a happy situtation, dh would have just walked in the door, I desperantly wanted to be with him, but instead I was lying in a dark room trying to get dd to sleep, a process that could take hours. DD really didn't want anything to do with DH, he couldn't comfort her, most of the time she didn't even want him holding her. Well, what changed? I started enjoying my time trying to get dd to sleep. The daytime is always so hetic, this was our time to relax together, we jwould just lay there and look at each other, I could enjoy sending my little girl to sleep knowing that she is happy because the center of her world is with her, and is happy to be with her. Some nights dh would lay down with us, and have family quiet time, then dh and I could get up and spend time together. Then dd starting demanding dh lay down with us! She wanted him to be with her when she fell asleep, this from a baby who didn't even want him holding her. DH and dd have grown much closer, she is now 19 months and loves her daddy time. Her daddy time is play time, trips to the park, I still put her to sleep every single night, but I look forward to it now. DD accepted dh in her own time, I'm glad I didn't push it. I get enough mommy time now and I enjoy. I know that if dd was unhappy, then I could not enjoy my own time, it would of not recharged me. When dd was younger it was really difficult to get anytime for myself, but even five minutes in a bubble bath can make a world of difference.


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## clothcrazymom (Sep 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AMB8301*
I'm going to share my experience in hopes that it may help the OP. My DH works alot, many nights he doesn't get home until really late. I know what it is like to be burned out. I've been there too many times, I am the only one who can put dd to sleep, I was so resentful of that fact for a while. I would of loved more than anything on some nights to give dd to dh and have him deal with her. She never went to sleep easily, still never does,is not a great sleeper anyway and has to be nursed to sleep by me. I remember thinking I just couldn't take it anymore. There was some nights I was so angry at dd, it was not a happy situtation, dh would have just walked in the door, I desperantly wanted to be with him, but instead I was lying in a dark room trying to get dd to sleep, a process that could take hours. DD really didn't want anything to do with DH, he couldn't comfort her, most of the time she didn't even want him holding her. Well, what changed? I started enjoying my time trying to get dd to sleep. The daytime is always so hetic, this was our time to relax together, we jwould just lay there and look at each other, I could enjoy sending my little girl to sleep knowing that she is happy because the center of her world is with her, and is happy to be with her. Some nights dh would lay down with us, and have family quiet time, then dh and I could get up and spend time together. Then dd starting demanding dh lay down with us! She wanted him to be with her when she fell asleep, this from a baby who didn't even want him holding her. DH and dd have grown much closer, she is now 19 months and loves her daddy time. Her daddy time is play time, trips to the park, I still put her to sleep every single night, but I look forward to it now. DD accepted dh in her own time, I'm glad I didn't push it. I get enough mommy time now and I enjoy. I know that if dd was unhappy, then I could not enjoy my own time, it would of not recharged me. When dd was younger it was really difficult to get anytime for myself, but even five minutes in a bubble bath can make a world of difference.

What a great story!

And I must say that I really appreciate Piglets posts on here! (as well as many others)

This is an AP board and while we all have our needs hopefully we can have our needs filled in a way that works for the entire family. The description the OP gave is of something that is NOT working for anyone. There are other ways to go about doing things and there have been many different suggestions given. And I would hope that we as a community would continue to offer support in an AP way (given that this is what this community is about!)

It's clear that she is saying that what they have done goes against her own heart as well. Why would anyone want to encourage this? She asked for help and support and has been given many suggestions that are things that would not involve having her child scream.

I'm very sad to read of the responses that are saying things like - just give it more time and such. That really falls right into the whole CIO stuff. You know what - this may be true. After some time it may stop. But what damage has been done in the mean time?

I don't think this particular method is something that works for anyone involved. It's not a matter of being a way to attach the child more to the father.


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## gracesmom0801 (Jul 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
Please tell me that I'm misunderstanding you....do you honestly believe that crying until baby vomits is EVER okay???? You really believe that expecting a baby to go cold turkey from nightnursing is in ANY WAY respectful of baby's needs? Does Sears not emphasize following baby's cues? How could baby possibly be more clear?

I'm almost at the point of tears right now that any mama on this board could think that these methods have ANYTHING to do with attachment parenting.


WOAH!!!! Who said that I was cold turkey night-weaning my daughter???? I'm following Dr. Jay Gordon (very AP- if you didn't already know that too) and his night-weaning advice. I'm following Grace's cues and she seems to be handling this new routine better than expected. If not, I would AGAIN follow her cues and give her what she needs. I NEVER said that a child vomiting is ok. I'm sorry that my terrible parenting skills have brought you to tears. I'm a darn good mother and have never let my daughter cry to the point of vomiting, even in her fathers arms. I was just trying to put myself in Zan's mama's shoes. Darn right, I may do it differently, but I was trying to give her a little encouragement. I have never felt so offended. I am the BEST MOTHER I CAN BE to my daughter. I just was trying to be nice to someone going through a rough time. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't EVER try to think you know how I parent, because you DON'T!!!







I am pg too and maybe that is why I'm feeling so upset. I just think you read more into my post than what was intended. I'm truly sorry that I upset you and so many other people on this board.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
...I think many mothers, consciously or not, sort of want to be the "favorite" and the "only." It is very understandable--we give so much, and if we are SAHMs, this is our job! We want to be the best at it. And yet I think reinforcing this is not healthy--for mom, for dad, for the marriage, for the child...

ITA.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
... As an aside, I am bothered by the way people constantly imply that crying, any crying, is terribly detrimental to a baby. Many of us have had babies who just cried, period, and to always be reading about how the crying baby's hormones are raging out of control, her physiology is in crisis, etc etc, is a real guilt-producer and not very helpful...

Again, ITA.

I don't think crying in Daddy's arms is CIO. I don't think that a few nights of having a bout of crying in Daddy's arms causes irreparable to a baby.

But I do think that continually being "rescued" from Father's arms can teach Baby that only Mother can comfort them. I do think that can be a detrimental thing to do to both baby and father in some families. Like mine. I don't think sparing my son a few rough nights was worth the damage being done to his and his father's relationship.

I think is some areas, the "AP answer" is quite clear (like breastfeeding). But I think navigating a realitionship between Baby, Mother and Father is a lot more murky. What is working for one AP family will not work for another.

I just don't think that this situation is the type where you get to rip up someone's AP card because you don't agree with how they handled it.


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## ZanZansMommy (Nov 8, 2003)

Thank You to all of you who gave suggestions & helpful hints as to an alternative way of going about this. The decision to have DH put DD to sleep was not well thought out or calculated in anyway. I was/am burnt out & I truely felt at that moment that he could give her more than I could. Seeing as he's gone most of the time, I have NO family here, all my friends are very mainstream & are NOT supportive of my parenting style---this all falls on my shoulders & I am burnt out. Thankfully DH is open to trying out some of the suggestions. He just wants me to be happy & healthy.


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

Quote:

He just wants me to be happy & healthy.


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Quote:

I was/am burnt out & I truely felt at that moment that he could give her more than I could.















I know EXACTLY how you feel.....

Quote:

He just wants me to be happy & healthy.
Sounds like a wonderful guy you have there! Best of luck mama!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Follow your instincts mama. They are telling you something isn't right.

I know how it is to not have anyone around. I live in Hawaii and all my family and friends are on the east coast of the US. The people I have met here are either not AP parents or didn't have a clue one way or the other about taking care of a baby. On top of that, my dh is now deployed for at least 6 months. I had to search out other people who think like me. I went to a La Leche League meeting. I also went to the Alaska and Hawaii board here on Finding Your Tribe. I have since met some real AP parents face to face.

My suggestion to you on that is to seek out people who think like you do. You need support IRL. Go to a LLL meeting (they are very AP) and tell them exactly how you feel. They really do care and want to help. I know if I were with you and you told me what was going on I would do everything I could to help you. Find your local tribe on here and try to meet some of the other people. Maybe you can start your own playgroup, which might lead to shared babysitting and such.

Here's somthing I learned a long time ago that really helps me. "Acceptance is the answer to all my problems today. When I am distrubed it is because I find some person, place, thing or situation - some fact of my life - unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment."

HTH


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

Arg -- Discussion moving too fast and causing the post I was writing to become obsolete...


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## FireWithin (Apr 29, 2004)

I'm the DH of Mammo2Sammo. She encouraged me to add my two cents to this discussion.
Sleep has always been, by far, the most frustrating, exhausting part of parenting our otherwise mind-blowingly awsome kid. Being a part of the whole going-to-sleep routine / ordeal is a necessity for me, not a luxury. DW simply couldn't handle it alone. I don't think anyone could.

In the early months, he would nurse to sleep (always a struggle) or he would let us dance him to sleep; it was difficult but manageable. Around 6 or 7 months, everything changed. Suddenly, we were walking, singing, humming, driving, cajoling, begging, demanding, etc., ad infinitum. We wouldn't know what worked from night to night, and when something did work, we wouldn't know why. We finally got it together around 8.5 months, and I was a big part of it. DW would nurse him or otherwise cuddle him into a relatively calm state, and I had a "funny walk" (think Monty Python's Ministry of Silly Walks) that worked like magic. Sometimes, we also used Peter, Paul and Mary, Johnny Cash or Nirvana Unplugged (seriously) in conjunction with the "visualizer" function of iTunes to semi-hypnotize him into sleepyness.

For two nights a week, I was on my own, because DW had to tutor in the evening. This was Hell at first, but it got better. As she's since pointed out to me, after a month of it, we had to learn to rely on each other: I was forced to learn DS's cues, and DS had to learn to trust me. Putting him to sleep made me feel like a parent in full, rather than just The Impregnator / Paycheck / Housework Guy. I was an indispensible part of the family unit. It was almost -- from my DS's POV -- as if I had functioning boobies.

But things have shifted again. About a month ago, all our old tricks and routines stopped working. He won't let me put him to sleep anymore. We've changed our routine dramatically; now I give him a bath every night, and read books to him. But I'll always miss the feeling of having him fall asleep in my arms.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ZanZansMommy*
... The decision to have DH put DD to sleep was not well thought out or calculated in anyway. I was/am burnt out & I truely felt at that moment that he could give her more than I could. Seeing as he's gone most of the time, I have NO family here, all my friends are very mainstream & are NOT supportive of my parenting style---this all falls on my shoulders & I am burnt out. Thankfully DH is open to trying out some of the suggestions. He just wants me to be happy & healthy.











Sounds like you have a wonderful partner and that you are both really good parents. You'll figure this out, as a family.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Hmmmm, see the whole problem I am having reading your well written post is this: Putting Him To Sleep. Maybe I'm a weirdo (quite entirely possible), but I have NEVER *put my kids to sleep*. They go to sleep when they are tired. Even as babies. There were obviously cues that they were tired, so then I would try nursing, rocking etc, and sometimes they just couldn't make the leap from waking to sleeping.

I think sleep becomes such an ordeal because we as parents make it into an ordeal. Sleep is so easy in my house because I have just let my kids sleep when they want. They will tell me when they are tired and will go to bed on their own. Sometimes they are up until 11 at night with me, sometimes they crash at 7. I don't care either way. We do have routine, at about 8:30-9 o'clock it is movie time, and they are expected to not be running about. I'm sure someone could jump on me about using TV at bedtime but I think that may be a moot discussion, as I have happy and healthy sleepers. Neither one of them have had nightmares/terrors, I've never had to fight them to go to bed AND I get my ME time because they are quietly watching a movie and I can go online.

I geuss quite a few of us have younger ones, mine are 5 and 3...but I still stand by the *put kids to sleep* issue. Why do we feel that we have to be in charge of when they go to sleep?








Like I said...I am a weirdo, I'd be interested to hear if anyone handles sleep like I do, maybe it should be a different thread though...


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

wemoon.. I know what you mean. my kids go to sleep when they are tired. my ds needs "put to sleep" though, in the sense that I have to dim the lights, put some music on to relax, and before that I massage him so he goes to sleep nice and relaxed, but this is only done when HE SHOWS ME that he's tired. then I rock him or nurse him to sleep. I do want to say though, you and I have the luxury to be at home, meaning, they can wake at whatever time they want if they go to sleep late, but some mamas have to get them up early for daycare, so I understand sometimes they NEED to put their kids to sleep gently, in order for them to get the sleep their bodies need.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

I also want to add. in our case, if my children are not tired, they don't have to go to sleep. my daughter has been up until 11 or 12 at night, but she sleeps in the next day so it's not a problem for us. I am not strict about bed times at all.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Yes, very true...I thought of that after I posted that I am a WAHM so we can sleep whenever we want, BUT for awhile I did WOH and the kids had to be at daycare at 6:30 in the freakin morning! But by 8-9 at night I was shot, and then we all just went to bed early and woke up early.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

before ds was born I was a WOHM! we had to take dd to daycare too, so that's why I remember we HAD TO put her to bed early so she could get the sleep she needed. it was tough! but now, it's great that they can sleep in. (and ironically enough, she begs to go to school now and play with her friends.. urgg)


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

Right -- the point of natural sleep patterns is that they work by definition. If a kid stays up until his parents go to bed, then has to get up early for daycare and is tired, he'll nap. Or he'll sleep earlier the next night. He won't learn that sleep is for particular, clock-defined times, whether he is tired or not.

This thread is really running the entire gamut of sleep-related issues.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Not much that hasn't already been said.

I just want to add two thoughts:

1) With a little thought I am sure you could find some scenario in which she happily accepts dh briefly after he gets home, for example, if he reads to her or plays a quiet game or sings, to give you a little break before you put her to sleep.

2)Assuming she won't accept him for her actual falling asleep time, then after you put her to sleep, let dh do something for you. Maybe make you a cup of tea, or a foot massage, some way of "helping you to help her".


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
let dh do something for you. Maybe make you a cup of tea, or a foot massage, some way of "helping you to help her".


this is what we do. I nurse ds to sleep, BUT dh brings me juice or water upon request, will massage my back if I ask him, and will pretty much do anything I say because I do most of the work with ds so he tries to help me help ds.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

I also wanted to share with you two very interesting articles that might help..

http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/separation.html

http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/li...n_palmer2.html


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

While I agree with natural sleep patterns to a degree...I do think it depends on your child and your family. I am a SAHM - but I do have a bedtime for my kids.

With DS we are pretty strict with it - because we have found that we are not he is a BEAR to deal with the next day. He is one that *NEEDS* a routine and for somone to enforce it since he can't fully understand the ramifications of not following it. Although he sometimes argues at the moment it is time to go to sleep - by the time we are in his room he is totally fine and ready to sleep. If we did not initiate the 'bedtime' he would be more then happy to stay up and play all night - no matter how tired he was, then would 'freak out' due to be overly tired and then fight himself to sleep. When he sticts to his bedtime schedule he is alseep (happily!) within 15 minutes and sleeps 12 hours. He sleep everynight from 7-7!

DD OTOH has no routine to her sleep - and we are pretty flexible with her. For her it is the 'amount' of sleep - rather then when she sleeps. So if she wakes early and naps early or for a short time then she will go to bed early. If she sleeps late or takes a longer then usual nap then she tends to stay up late (later then I really care for her too) To, some degree I try and regulate that to fit within an acceptable parameter for our family by waking her up earlier or not letting her nap for 3 hours in the afternoon...she does ok with these things and we are all happier for it.







But her bedtime still varies between 8-11 pm.....but we are working on it........


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## CartersMomma (Jan 4, 2002)

I think its okay to feel like being 100% responsible for bedtime sucks sometimes. It can seem like the years drag on and on, but really they don't. They will be gone in an instant! really! You have to do what you feel is best, but my advice would be to go to your babe and stop the crying. And let dh baby you, I like that idea a lot!


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

My own dh works late several nights a week and we had this exact problem. It drove me FREAKING NUTS!!!!

I would get great advice like "Oh, have dadddy start a bedtime routine ie stories...baths...fun!" which is really great advice but it is REALLY hard to establish a routine of it when they can only do so a few nights a week..and that makes it less likely to work.

Maybe make it uber fun daddy baby time? Abi likes to play "Pirate" with her dad (yeah, she is the pirate) or "dragon (dh is apparently the dragon as he is slayed







) they play wrestle or just watch stargate (omg I let her watch that?)
and I would sit and read or go and take a bath while they romped. Maybe start it a little earlier than bed time so they aren't worn out completely to hysteria.

I dunno..it is hard to say what will work for each kid but random "bed time go to daddy" does NOT work. Believe me I have been through that one...totally does not work. Books and baths are always great as well...maybe he can spend and hour or so with child while you relax then put them to bed.

Dh never actually put my child to bed until I went back to work a couple of nights a week (no kidding) did I mention it drove me nuts??







s










I hope you find something that works out for you...


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## gracesmom0801 (Jul 22, 2004)

After much thought and prayer about this, I must apologize for freaking out because of what piglet said. I have been hormonal. When she said "Tell me I'm misunderstanding you"..... she was. That's all this was is a misunderstanding. I tend to let my mama bear come out when I feel like someone is "attacking" (for lack of a better word) my mothering skills. I work hard to be the best mom in the world to Grace so I guess it's a touchy subject.







BTW, the second night of our gradual night-weaning went GREAT!!! No crying, lots of cuddling.








I love you mamas and don't want you to be upset if I stick my foot in my mouth sometimes!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Gracesmom0801...Thank you for that last post. I honestly was NOT...repeat NOT... referring to *your* nightweaning (actually I had no idea you were nightweaning - we are too, btw, and it's also been very gentle and positive) or your parenting. And I'm afraid you'll have to stand in line behind me for being the best at doing this --->









ZanZan: I'm so happy reading your last post. And let me tell you mama: I've been very close to where you were when you wrote that OP. When DD was very young, about 2 or 3 months old, DH was getting a bit insecure about the fact that she was comforted more readily by me than by him. He knew in his mind that this was normal and natural and that, before we knew it, DD would be a toddler wanting nothing but "DADDY!!"...but his heart was getting impatient. So one night when DD began to fuss he told me to "let him try". It went against everything I believed in, but I felt bad for DH that he was feeling so "rejected" by her. I sat downstairs listening to her wailing and crying escalate further and further. I counted 15 minutes of sheer torture for me, before I gave up and "rescued" her. I even posted a thread here while I was waiting...and the mamas here told me what they are telling you: _this is not right! listen to your gut! listen to your mama instinct!_. We never, ever did that again, and frankly even DH was a basket-case by the time I "rescued" them, and decided "never again". I can assure you this had no effect whatsoever on their attachment. Children go through natural stages where they want you more than Daddy and vice versa. I honestly believe that you cannot "force" attachment by CIO. That's just the antithesis of the whole concept. I agree with everyone who said fathers need to be involved, but make transitions gradual, take baby steps. Follow baby's cues, follow your heart, your instinct!

I also wanted to relate one more thing along the lines of some other people's posts:

I've been having alot of nipple pain nursing this late in my PG and nightnursing was becoming very unpleasant for me. Well, a couple of nights ago I was lying in bed with DD nursing her, grimacing...and all of a sudden I was struck by this thought that just pierced right into my heart - I looked at her tiny 2 year old body, her feet tucked into my lap, her hand resting on my breast, and I realized that in no time at all this child would be gone forever...my little 2 year old nursling will be an older child with her own room, her own friends, her own activities, and she will not need me at night anymore. This time we have is SO fleeting, and our children will never be at the stage they are right now, ever again. Maybe I was just having a hormonal moment, but the tears began to well up in my eyes (as they are doing right now as I write this). _I wanted to freeze time right then and there, beg her not to grow up so fast..._and from that moment onwards I have cherished every night with her, even when my nipples hurt, and even when it takes her a long time to nurse down....If you believe in God, maybe that was a message. _This too shall pass..._.

Good luck to you and your baby.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I also allow my baby, who is almost 7 months old, to follow his natural sleep pattern. I talked to so many parents who went through all kinds of hell to get their babies on a schedule. It just sounded so awful for everyone. I just relaxed and allowed my baby to do what he needed and, wouldn't ya know it, he basically fell into the "normal" patterns that I read about in the baby books. I understand that I am relatively lucky because I am a SAHM and my baby is very easy going. However, even if you need to put your baby to sleep by a certain time, I think there are so many better ways of doing it than allowing baby to cry when you know that all she wants is the comfort of mom or dad.

Like the father added to this thread, sorry I can't remember your name, you can alternate trying everything you can think of to calm and soothe baby when you don't know what they need. It can get exhausting and overwhelming but that's what we sign up for when we choose to have children.

Children don't choose or ask to be born. Adults choose to have children. That's why adults have to be the ones to make the sacrifices.

That's not exactly what started out trying to say but I got interrupted and then lost my train of thought. Oh well.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

a little OT but I just wanted to say, MarineWife, that I've really enjoyed your posts on this thread.


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## ZanZansMommy (Nov 8, 2003)

Again many thanks to all of you for such insight into this matter. I never ever imagined that my post would lead to such a long & lengthy discussion. For now Dh & I have decided that I will continue to be the primary person to help DD get to sleep. BTW, I do read her cues & I only help her to go to sleep when she shows me she's ready. Every night it pretty much varies, on when she's ready. That being said it can still take her an hour+ to calm her down down-- that's just her.

So to help myself when these times get trying, DD & I got out some posterboard & I wrote down several passages to help keep me from going







"_This too shall pass_" "_Each Day with DD is a gift--cherish it because you can never get it back" "Life is precious & you created this life"_ The poster board is even more special because DD colored all over it







. I have it hanging in our bedroom so I have the constant reminder. It has helped A LOT. Not to mention, I now tell DH (via the monitor) what type of pampering I expect once DD is asleep.







---tea, massage, drawing me a bath, glass of wine---whatever. Lets hope this works for awhile. Again many Thanks!


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

Good for you!!


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Yay! I'm so glad to hear about these awesome moves you have made!

Blessed Be, Mama!


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## Kincaid (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
Please tell me that I'm misunderstanding you....do you honestly believe that crying until baby vomits is EVER okay???? Do you think that just b/c daddy is holding baby, that sitting by and letting her scream and wail unconsolably (when YOU have caused her distress and YOU have the key to end it?) has ANYTHING to do with Sears' message or Attachment Parenting? You really believe that expecting a baby to go cold turkey from nightnursing is in ANY WAY respectful of baby's needs? Does Sears not emphasize following baby's cues? How could baby possibly be more clear?

I'm almost at the point of tears right now that any mama on this board could think that these methods have ANYTHING to do with attachment parenting.

And, btw, I have not seen anybody flame the OP. She is not on trial here. The technique of allowing a baby to Cry-It-Out most certainly is on trial, and given the advocacy this board maintains (check out the link in my sig if you're confused) I think it is MOST important for anybody reading this thread to know that this is NOT at all attachment parenting.

Whew. This really bothers me. It seems so attacking on the O.P. Sticking a hugs emoticon onto the end does not dampen the screeching "this is not AP! you are doing the wrong thing!" tone to it.

Okay, I want to quote Sears Nighttime Parenting, there are lots of references to this situation but I want to quote directly from page 106 in the section called "Father Nursing":
_"Letting dad take over may be necessary if the mother can no longer cope well... This solution can be difficult for a sensitive, attached mother to accept but she should remember that having dad comfort the baby is not the same as 'letting him cry'. Crying in the arms of a familiar, well loved parent is not the same as being left alone behind the bars of a crib to "cry it out." Dad will need to be patient as his little one learns to accept this new way of being soothed. The payoff is that the child will learn that he can depend on father as well as mother to care for his needs."_

At other chapters in the book, such as the chapter called "Nighttime Fathering", Sears points out how when dad is at work all day that it is even more important to transition him as the person responsible for bed-times. Sears admits this is not easy, but says it is important for the sanity of the mom (who deals with baby all day) and for the bond with dad.

I think the moderator who is insisting that what the O.P. is doing is "against the advocacy that this board maintains" and that this is "NOT at all attachment parenting" needs to take a deep calming breath. I think honey you are going off a little too much on the OP, and you are making statements that may hold true for you but clearly Sears himself sees this differently. Piglet, you might have a good argument against Sears himself on this scenario, but I would strongly urge everyone (especially those in a moderator role) to be careful in getting hot and emotional and crying and insisting on what is "NOT A.P."

This momma obviously had two conflicting instincts... something told her she should let dad step up his nighttime parenting role and that baby crying in dad's arms is not the same as CIO (which jives with what Sears is saying in print)... but on the other hand she *hurts* when baby cries. She came to this board for support, not what-your-doing-is-NOT-AP rants. I am really disappointed by this thread and it seems like this is happening a lot. We should be careful with our authority when someone is in distress.

editing trying to make the quote look like a quote, LOL


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Ummm, well to me it looked like the OP decided that the thoughts and advice given in this thread was worth a shot. And just because some guy named Sears wrote that in a book doesn't mean I believe it.

This link was shared with me tonight, I thought it was a wonderful article: http://www.aolff.org/myth.htm


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Good for you, Lola. I'm glad you've been able to find some alternatives.

Piglet68, Thanks so much. I have enjoyed your posts, too. I had started to feel like I was the only one here who disagreed with this method.

To address the issue about not being supportive of the OP, support does not always mean agreement. The point of this website is to discuss and learn about AP. No one will get anywhere if we pussyfoot around things and avoid the truth for fear it might upset someone. We are supporting the OP in her quest for finding the right solution to the problem she is having. I'd rather have that kind of support even if someone tells me I'm wrong than have everyone tell me what I'm doing is ok just so my feelings won't get hurt.


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## Kincaid (Feb 12, 2004)

"avoid the truth for fear that it might upset someone":

I am only pointing out the danger in acting as if there is only one "TRUTH." We must realize when we are overly vehement that our truth may not be someone else's....and that what is considered the "right" solution for one may not be someone else's.

"And just because some guy named Sears wrote it in a book":

I thought it important to accurately represent what Sears did in fact write, since people were using "this is against Sears and what AP stands for" as part of their critique.

Nighttime Parenting suggests that mom leaves the house to not hear baby's cries when dad takes on the nighttime role. You may not agree with Sears on this, which is fine and great, but don't tell someone she is against what Sears stands for when in reality he has published exactly what she is doing.

BTW, Sears suggests that because this is so heart-wrenching that mom should leave the house for a little break, till Dad gets baby used to nighttime routine. He also suggests Dad can take baby out driving in the car. And Sears goes on and on about how important this is to the mother, this ability to get some personal time in the evening (and for dad to get time with baby).... many of the posts seem to criticize the O.P. for being selfish for even wanting that little break.

Anyway, just pointing out this *IS* a Sears technique.


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## artgirl (May 17, 2002)

I've been pretty quiet here but I'd just like to point out that although support may not always mean agreement there are *supportive* and *non-supportive* ways to voice your disagreement. I think some of the language on this board has been very inflammatory, judgemental and condemning and it upsets me. Maybe just watch how you phrase things a little. You can voice your dissenting opinion without smashing someone over the head with it and making them feel inferior. I think people posting want honest answers but not to be made to feel like they are horrible mothers. No one here is perfect but it seems that there are a few who forget that they aren't.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

OH *I* _know_ that I am not perfect! I don't believe anyone here was implying they were!

And *I* did not say that this mama should follow Sears' every breath to solve her dilema. I don't believe I ever mentioned Sears









But in any case, this mama already said she was going to try some different ideas, ideas which I think are wonderful, maybe the ideas sound really bad to you? I'm just not sure what the problem is here? The OP mama herself does not seem mad or offended....just the other people offering her *support* do?


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## Matadora (Jul 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
I was lying in bed with DD nursing her, grimacing...and all of a sudden I was struck by this thought that just pierced right into my heart - I looked at her tiny 2 year old body, her feet tucked into my lap, her hand resting on my breast, and I realized that in no time at all this child would be gone forever...my little 2 year old nursling will be an older child with her own room, her own friends, her own activities, and she will not need me at night anymore. This time we have is SO fleeting, and our children will never be at the stage they are right now, ever again.

Brought tears to my eyes. I can't tell you how many times I look at my 3.5 year old son and I am overcome with emotion over how big he has gotten. Then I look at my 15 month old DD and I swear I won't let time fly by... and yet I can distinctly remember just yesterday being very pg with her...

Maybe the one main thing any of us can get from this thread is the shortness of baby/toddler/preschool years.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wemoon*
And just because some guy named Sears wrote that in a book doesn't mean I believe it.


I know sears is kind of like a poster person for AP, but I don't like him and I feel he is very mainstream. next thing you know he'll be advocating CIO.


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## sistermama (May 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wemoon*
This link was shared with me tonight, I thought it was a wonderful article: http://www.aolff.org/myth.htm

Wow, I just love when someone defines my "real needs" for me.

Dads are really getting the shaft on this thread. Makes me wonder that it isn't called "attachment mothering".


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Sarah, I think because we are the ones that breastfeed and carry the child in our wombs for 9 months, we do have a different role than the dad. asking why dads can't do the exact same duties that we do is like asking why can't they carry the babies. it's just not how it is. I agree we deserve help from our husbands or dp. BUT let's not forget, a mother is essencial for baby's survival, a father (sorry to sound so cold with this, I love my dh and think he's irreplaceable) BUT fathers are not needed to survive. kwim?


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sistermama*
Wow, I just love when someone defines my "real needs" for me.

It's all about perspective.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I don't know of a single mammalian species where the father has any real role in parenting the children. This is almost certainly due to the fact that it is females who lactate and therefore must be in close contact with the offspring. It's not our fault that Nature set mama up to be the primary caregiver in those early months of a child's life. And while we are not mice or coyotes, we have millions of years of evolution guiding our behaviour and that of our children. It is no mystery to me why babies prefer mothers over fathers when they are very young. Sure, we can take steps to involve Dads but I think when it gets to the point of trauma for the child, we are working against Nature and that is a tough road for everybody. Like rolling rocks uphil, kwim?

And the thing is...there are just so many ways that Dads can be involved without the need for crying. It irks me that people are suggesting we are somehow not "Dad friendly" because we're saying that maybe Dad should not gain his attachment at the expense of the child's physical and emotional well-being.

While I agree that AP is not a laundry list of what to do and not do, there HAS to be some limits, some things that define AP, or what is the difference between this and any other style of parenting? It is possible to criticize a method without criticizing the parent, and I think it's obvious from the OP's posts that we have done that successfully.

And once again, NOBODY has said on this thread that the OP was selfish for wanting me time, everybody has agreed it's necessary and deserved. Can we please cut that straw man down for the last time???

ZanZan: what a wonderful idea, making that poster with your child. And chatting with your DH like that over the monitor. Very inspirational!


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

Piglet, your making me want to read the conitnuum concept again!!! :LOL


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

piglet: I love your last post


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