# What's wrong with carbs, anyway?



## wannabesmc (Dec 27, 2010)

I've been reading some of the posts on here and I've found something interesting. It seems that most of you have something against carbs. Like eating no grain, at all, or at least very little. I've also got the newest Eat This, Not That book that I bought on a whim that seems to have a similar mindset. I almost threw the book across the room when a meal that consisted of some kind of meat and a bunch of veggies was touted as being the perfect meal. I don't understand this, at all. If you look at any food guide pyramid, grains make up the base, they're what we're supposed to eat the most of. Most books on nutrition say that between 50%-60% of our calories should come from carbs. And let's not forget the fact that the only thing our brains use for food is glucose - which our bodies synthesize from carbs. So I really don't understand this mindset of grains and carbs being the enemy. Personally, I NEED my complex carbs. My parents and I went on this low-carb diet once (it wasn't touted as being a low carb diet, but it was very restrictive and there wasn't a single grain product to be found, the only carbs on the plan were the lactose in the cheese.) I felt horrible on it. Tired, lethargic, crabby, cranky, and eventually down-right depressed. I eventually caved and had a soda - my best friend thought my problem was caffeine withdrawals and made me drink a Pepsi. I almost immediately felt better. For the longest time I agreed with my friend that it was the caffeine, until I went cold-turkey off of caffeine a few months ago with no problems except a headache for a few days and one day of slight dizziness (the dizziness may or may not have actually been allergies making it so I couldn't breathe.). My problem with the diet was my blood sugar bottoming out and my brain essentially starving to death. I've discovered that I can go meatless with no adverse effects. In fact I feel much better without meat. But giving up complex carbs makes me very sick. I can't be alone in this.


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## Annie Mac (Dec 30, 2009)

I'm with you! I think this whole "carbs are evil" movement is misguided. Or, at least, it doesn't work for me.


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## staceychev (Mar 5, 2005)

I think that people's body's work the best on different diets. Personally, I do better when I'm eating lower grain and higher fats (avocado, coconut oil, etc.). I've been on a lot of different types of eating over my lifetime (SAD, Weight Watchers, Macrobiotic, straight vegetarian...) and eating a lower grain diet has helped my weight drop, and I've noticed other benefits like reduced menstrual cramps and less arthritis type symptoms, especially in my creaking knees. I also find that my blood sugar actually feels more stable when I'm eating things like nuts as snacks.

I'd also point out that the Food Pyramid is disputed (in fact it's in the process of being revamped), and that most nutritional advice that comes from our government, like much else that comes from our government, is politically driven. This isn't to say that there isn't good stuff, but I do think we have to always keep that in mind when we take what "they" say as golden.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Why would you think grains are the only carbs?

What do you think you'd get from grains that you can't get more of from vegetables or fruit or meat? Even that Pepsi you drank had fructose not bran.

I personally wanted to reduce my sugar addiction and have found it far easier to avoid grains and sugar than to avoid just sugar. When I experimented with eliminating sugar from my diet, I thought it was impossible to have that kind of will power. When I'm not eating grains I don't need to have will power to not eat sugar. I can even completely and utterly blow the diet like on a holiday and have no problems going right back to it the next day. (Mind you, I'm going to do less simple carb eating even on special occasions, the last time I had some cookies it made my skin crawl, I had the urge to urinate with an almost empty bladder, I had trouble getting to sleep, and my eczema flared up as did thrush-like symptoms).


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## womenswisdom (Jan 5, 2008)

If you are interested in the science behind the low-carb idea and the history behind the current nutritional recommendations, I suggest the book Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes. It's lengthy and very thorough. There are also some youtube videos of him giving lectures that cover some of the ideas in his books.


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## californiajenn (Mar 7, 2007)

Here are a few blogs that can explain all of the details:

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/

http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com/

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/

http://thehealthyskeptic.org/

http://www.moodcure.com/

Very, very simply, many of us believe most grains are not fit for regular human consumption because they contain anti-nutrients and wreak havoc on our health. Also, grains are essentially sugar which does nothing good for our health. Many of us are dealing with health issues that a high-carb diet exacerbates, as most bad bacteria like sugar (not all.) Finally, there is nothing a grain has that meat, veggies, and fruit do not have more of in a less toxic package. Look at WHY the government is recommended grains... hand in hand with big-ag.


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## wannabesmc (Dec 27, 2010)

Stacy - I agree that different people's bodies work best on different diets. I can understand that. It just seems so counter-intuitive to me to cut out grains, probably because that is what my body needs the most. I'm also a bit biased due to the fact that my uncle was on Atkins and that seriously contributed to his death. As for the food guide pyramid being disputed, well, I personally don't believe much of anything the FDA or USDA tells me. I know that they have a political agenda that has nothing to do with actually keeping the American people healthy. But even Food Pyramids that are not put out by the FDA or USDA have grains as the base. I have never seen any food pyramid that did NOT have grains as the base.

Sapphire - Name another source of COMPLEX carbs - NOT sugars. BTW Pepsi is made with HFCS, in other words while it may be fructose, it still comes from grain. Not saying that it was the best thing to be eating (or rather drinking) but it did give me the jolt of sugar I needed. There were not NEARLY enough carbs in the foods that diet had me eating to sustain me, so I got sick. Once I got off of that ridiculous diet and started eating grains, again, I stopped having problems.

Womenswisdon - I may see if my library has that book. Since I know that my body does NOT handle low-carb well, I wouldn't buy it. That could never be a lifestyle for me. But I don't mind reading different points of view - as long as I'm not being preached to.

Honestly, if low carb works for you, I have no problem with it. It doesn't work for me. Personally, my body does best on a diet based on complex carbs - whole grains. Meat is what makes me feel bloated, gassy and nauseous - and hungry again a short while later. Which is a kind of bizarre feeling, nauseous from the meat sitting in my stomach, and yet ravenous for something else. Give me equal calories in whole grains and I can go hours before I'm hungry again.


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

Your body does not handle low carb well (and I don't really know what you mean by "low carb, so I *could* be off base here) because you're addicted to carbohydrates. It took me two weeks to shake the addiction, during which time I felt like CRAP. Afterwards, I felt better than I had felt in ... well in forever. My GERD went away, I wasn't achy, my allergy like symptoms went away etc etc. I started losing weight almost effortlessly. Weight loss wtihout counting any calories, I might add.

The carbohydrate amount we consume in the standard american diet is deadly, frankly speaking. 100 - 150 grams a day which is easily obtainable by eating vegetables, fruits, meats, nuts, fats and some dairy is a good maintenance amount. The SAD is at least twice that.

Look, the book Good Calories, Bad Calories is a very dense, complex book and I do not recommend it for the general public. Taubes just put out a book that is aimed at the general public rather than health professionals, and I suggest that one, especially if you want to understand the science, but do not want to have to read a tome of a scientific publication.


The videos take a few hours of your time, but you *really* need to take that time to begin to understand this stuff. Nutrition is currently being turned on it's head.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wannabesmc*
> 
> Sapphire - . BTW Pepsi is made with HFCS, in other words while it may be fructose, it still comes from grain.


You still used fructose to start feeling better, which means your problem was that you needed more carbs in general (was the diet induction-phase Atkins out of curiosity?) not that you needed carbs from grains.

Now, your experience is that you stay full on whole grain meals and feel hungry on high-fat meals (utterly fascinating, if we could narrow down our biological differences we could make a fortune!), but that has nothing to do with feeling good after drinking Pepsi after being on a low-carb diet.

Off topic some more: Do/have you tracked calories at all? I've found that not snacking reduced my calorie intake by 500-1000 calories or so. Did you find a similar effect when you cut out the food that made you nosh?


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I am really curious about what sort of low carb diet you were following, too. It could explain a lot.

I felt not necessarily hungry but anxious and as if I hadn't eaten anything for the first couple of weeks while getting rid of carbs as my main source of fuel. I kept wanting to eat, so I totally get that part of it. There is a big difference between that sort of anxious omg, I have to eat feeling, and actual hunger though. The latter, come to find out, was part of my insulin resistance, which I didn't know I had.


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## Koalamom (Dec 27, 2007)

I dodnt want to go grain free as my religion says grain is for man, but when I cut it out, my skin cleared up, and my lyme disease is more tollerable.


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## wannabesmc (Dec 27, 2010)

Sigh. I have no idea what kind of low-carb diet it was. I do know that it was not Atkins. It was somethign my dad found, quite possible online. It was not one of those diets with a list of what you could and couldn't eat and let you make your own decisions. It was one of those diets that told you exactly what to eat at each meal. You could have as much as you wanted of those foods, but it was very specific. Sapphire, I don't know what you mean when you ask me if I noticed less snacking and therefore a reduction of calories when I cut out the food that made me nosh. When do you think I cut out food that makes me nosh? As for me feeling hungry on high-fat meals, I don't - I feel hungry again shortly after eating meat. I use copious amounts of olive oil and decent to excessive amounts of cheese when I cook. I do NOT eat a low fat diet. For all I know what I'm calling hunger is just my body's way of trying to deal with the nausea. And Geekgolightly, I'm not talking about being nauseous and hungry if I go on a meat-heavy diet. I'm talking about feeling that way after having meat as PART of a meal. With carbs, without carbs, grain, no grain, doesn't matter. I put meat in my body, my body tries very hard to reject it.


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

I think that diets that tell you what to eat and when probably aren't ideal. Cutting out grains and going *essentially* low carb (that's only as compared to the standard american diet) isn't really low carb. It appears that this is how most bodies are able to maintain hormone homeostasis. (hormones concerning hunger drives and metabolism).

Everyone is different, but I think that eating liberal amounts of vegetables, moderate mounts of fruits, meats (or other protein that are low carb), fats, and nuts with some dairy works for most people to regulate cell metabolism and fat regulation.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wannabesmc*
> 
> Sigh. I have no idea what kind of low-carb diet it was. I do know that it was not Atkins. It was somethign my dad found, quite possible online. It was not one of those diets with a list of what you could and couldn't eat and let you make your own decisions. It was one of those diets that told you exactly what to eat at each meal. You could have as much as you wanted of those foods, but it was very specific. Sapphire, I don't know what you mean when you ask me if I noticed less snacking and therefore a reduction of calories when I cut out the food that made me nosh. When do you think I cut out food that makes me nosh?


High fat meats? Those make you need to eat again even while you're feeling so full that it hurts?

Basically for me, with grains, I'd eat a lot of small meals, like 10 meals at 300 calories a day, and go to bed thinking I could do with another snack. Whereas without grains, I'll have two meals at 1000 calories, and be fine.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

OP: The other posters are more knowledgeable about this than I am, but one thing in your posts keeps jumping out at me. You keep equating complex carbohydrates with whole grains. What about vegetables and beans?


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

That's a really important point. Vegetables and beans ARE mostly carbohydrate. There are four macronutrients of which all our food is made-- protein, fat, carbohydrate, and water. Vegetables do contain some fat, and some protein, but they are largely carbohydrate. Other sources of "complex" carbohydrate-- by which we mean starch-- would include potatoes, turnips, beans, lentils, sweet potatoes, rutabaga, and peas-- none of which come from grains.

I would encourage you to check out not the trendy weight-loss-oriented low-carb stuff, but to instead look at books that focus on Traditional Foods. Nourishing Traditions is the classic a lot of people will mention, but I'd also recommend Real Food by Nina Planck. These are a good introduction to what may be misguided in how we prepare and eat grain-based foods. I myself do not eat a low-carb diet. I do eat a diet very low in grain-based foods, though.

In particular, the evidence against white, refined grains (like white flour, white rice, pearled barley, etc.) and the evidence against refined sweeteners are fairly clear and undeniably persuasive. A little reading about glycemic index can be a big help in understanding this.

http://www.gnolls.org/905/mechanisms-of-sugar-addiction-or-why-youre-addicted-to-bread/

As for cutting out grains entirely, this is a good perspective:
http://www.grainfreeliving.com/foodpyramid

This is a very huge idea, if you're very deeply invested in the mainstream advice about nutrition. I remember throwing nourishing traditions down and swearing to DH that "these traditional food people are lunatics." But I kept on reading. And learning. And then I gave up the sugar and the flour for eighteen months-- long enough to ride out the breaking of the addiction.

Anyway, I'm just saying don't dismiss this as quackery simply because it's unfamiliar. What we don't know about food and nutrition could fill a 10 gig hard drive.


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## porenn (Nov 23, 2005)

I can't attest to what works for other people, but I know that I function much better on a grain free, sugar free diet.

I have a laundry list of things that get better when I do:

My migraines go away

My joints stop hurting

My sinuses clear up

I retain less fluid

I'm less cranky

My vision clears

My mind is less fuzzy

I can think clearly

I remember things better

I have energy and motivation

I loose weight

I'm not ravenously hungry all the time

I don't think about food all the time

I ovulate (and got pregnant, which I was told would probably never happen)

I wake up refreshed, and don't feel like I need to go back to bed for a few hours

My blood pressure drops

My good cholesterol goes up and my bad cholesterol goes down

It seems counter intuitive to me as well, that I can eat meat and cheese and put cream in my coffee but I can't eat brown rice or even an apple without feeling like I'm hung over the next day. My endocrinologist told me that it's not unusual, and that some people can eat grains and fruit, and others can't.

So while it works for me, it doesn't really surprise me that it doesn't for you. It doesn't work for my husband either.

-porenn


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## wannabesmc (Dec 27, 2010)

Porenn - most of what you've described as what happens when you go grain free is what happens to me when I go meat free. I don't really know about blood pressure or cholesterol or ovulation, but the rest of it is how I feel going veg. And my blood pressure dropping would be a very BAD thing, anyway. I have low blood pressure to begin with. Oh well. If it works for you, great. It really doesn't work for me.

Sapphire - the only time I ever eat until I'm so full it hurts is Thanksgiving and X-mas. I tend to fill up to overflowing on stuffing, tossed salad, cucumbers, a bit of cranberries a roll and a serving of corn for Thanksgiving. X-mas menu varies according to who's hosting that year, but I still fill up on the carbs and veggies. Yes, I go back for way too much dessert a couple hours later, but that's because it's there and it's yummy - not because I'm hungry. (Has anyone else ever noticed that they seem to have a second stomach reserved for cheesecake and pumpkin pie? It's like "I am so full I couldn't eat another bite...ooh! Cheesecake!")

One other thing I noticed. I did not watch what I ate or exercise at all in December. I still managed to maintain my weight despite the holiday parties. It was a weight that I'm not even close to being happy with, but at least it didn't go up. Eat a hamburger, though and my weight goes up the next morning - every frickin time.


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## newcastlemama (Jun 7, 2005)

Yes to all of it. Grains give me inflammation but my family eats them in moderation.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bluebirdmama1*
> 
> I dodnt want to go grain free as my religion says grain is for man, but when I cut it out, my skin cleared up, and my lyme disease is more tollerable.


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## cristeen (Jan 20, 2007)

I wouldn't say "most" of the people here on MDC are anti-carb. In fact, I wouldn't even say that there's very many here at all - if any. Anti-grain though is very different than anti-carb.

Personally, I have PCOS with IR. What that means for me is that my body produces lots of insulin in response to my food, and my insulin receptors are blind to it. So my body keeps producing insulin. That excess of insulin has a LOT of very negative effects on my body. When I'm eating grain regularly (even if that's just 1 serving/day), my blood sugar is whacky, I gain weight, I have cravings, I'm lethargic, I snack constantly, etc. When I remove grain from my diet, my blood sugar, my moods, my weight all stabilize. I don't feel like I need a nap half an hour after getting up. I can walk by the bakery without needing to go inside. All in all, my life is much better without grains. However, that's not the same thing as without carbs. We get a CSA box delivered weekly with lots of fruits and veggies - at this time of year it's mostly greens. We have to work to get through them all. Every single item in that box is carbs. Sometimes that includes potatoes or sweet potatoes, squash, parsnips, etc. All of which are starchier carbs. I tolerate those just fine because I'm not eating them every day. I can have beans a few times a week without any problem. I can even tolerate non-grain grains in small amount - like wild rice or buckwheat, if I eat them whole and not refined. My life is not devoid of carbs just because I don't eat grains. It's devoid of grains. And as a pp pointed out, there is no nutrient (macro or micro) contained in grains that cannot be found in another food. I am far healthier eating a bowl full of sauteed leafy greens and mushrooms as my carb side dish than if I ate a bowl of rice with my dinner.

I'll also reiterate what another pp pointed out - the detox period from a carb heavy SAD to a grain-free or "low-carb" diet is 1-2 weeks. That's how long it takes for your body to flush out all the nasties, and re-regulate itself. My general recommendation for people who want to try it is to commit to it for 3 weeks. That gets you past the detox period, usually into feeling better, and it also has the benefit of forming a habit, at which point the entire WOE (way of eating) becomes far easier.

I will say though that eating grain-free is very difficult in this society because of the propensity of grains. The hyper-dependence upon them. The SAD includes grains for breakfast (cereal), grains for lunch (sandwich) and grains for dinner (pasta, rice, tortilla, bread, etc.). It is very difficult to separate our dependence upon them from a need for them. And ultimately it all boils down to big business. It's all about money.

All that being said, there is nothing that says that you can't eat them yourself. And nothing to say that you can't even be reasonably healthy while eating them. But I do suggest you read the Nina Planck book that was recommended, and learn about proper preparation of whole grains, so that your body can utilize them to the best of it's ability. Because regardless of how yummy products made with refined grains may be - they are not healthy food to be basing a diet on, and no responsible medical professional would disagree with that.


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## Annie Mac (Dec 30, 2009)

I'm a little confused -- are we talking about grains, or about processed foods containing white flours, white rice and the like? In the grain free link posted by geekgolightly, the author doesn't seem to include quinoa in the category of grains, but does mention processed flours and sugar, and there seems to be a similar attitude throughout this thread. You have problems with all of these? If so, oh, sad! (Probably not for you, but *I* would find it sad to eliminate all those foods. Of course, I'd feel different if they made me feel poorly, I'm sure). People have been eating millet, rice, barley, oats, wheat, quinoa, etc for quite some time. White bagels with hulled sesame seeds with a cream cheese like substance and jam? Considerably less so. Am I misunderstanding "grain?"


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *newcastlemama*
> 
> Yes to all of it. Grains give me inflammation but my family eats them in moderation.
> 
> ...


Does it help at all to soak them? Or a sprouted bread?


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Annie Mac*  People have been eating millet, rice, barley, oats, wheat, quinoa, etc for quite some time.


Only about 12,000 years. Which is why the toxins can still do such a number on so many of us.


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## Zach'smom (Nov 5, 2004)

If you don't any grains at all what would a days worth of meals be like? I am thinking about how I eat and every meal includes whole grain.

Are you just eating fruits, veggies, meats and beans? I am curious because grain based food is such a staple in most diets.


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

any assortment of vegetables, meats, nuts, fats and fruits you would like for breakfast lunch and dinner.

i guess it *is* weird to think about going grain free... i think i remember it being weird, but now it's second nature. since pregnancy i have been eating some grain products, mostly some corn when i do, but i went for 7 months with no grains whatsoever and i was really happy.

typical day

breakfast

2 or 3 eggs cookied in coconut oil or butter

orange, blueberries or apple

water

snack of nuts or cheese or both

lunch

big a** salad with greens, chopped various veggies, apple, some crumbled bacon, some chopped chicken and avocado with a homemade dressing

(link to this amazing salad >> http://www.marksdailyapple.com/bacon-chicken-and-avocado-salad/ SO GOOD!!!

nuts or fruit or both if im hungry, but usually wasnt

dinner

salmon grilled with roasted brussles sprouts and side salad


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

here are some other really yummy recipes

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/all-together-now/

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/low-carb-thanksgiving-recipes/

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/thai-inspired-salad-of-awesome/

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/shrimp-%E2%80%9Cgrok-amole%E2%80%9D-salad/

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/zesty-lemon-lime-seafood-salad-with-homemade-salsa/

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/lamb%E2%80%99s-lettuce-and-spinach-salad/

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/10-delicious-diy-salad-dressings/

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/simple-spinach-salad-with-grilled-steak-and-raspberry-vinaigrette/

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/10-classic-diy-salad-creations/

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/lobster-grapefruit-and-avocado-salad-with-creamy-citrus-dressing/

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/bacon-egg-avocado-and-tomato-salad/

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/curried-salmon-salad/

I guess you have to really love salad, which fortunately i do, and have an even fonder affection for them now that i've been eating this way for a while.

yesterday i ate

bacon

eggs

coffee (bad i know! but i drink less than five cups a week so....)

orange

i sorta skipped lunch bc i wasnt hungry. i did eat a piece of cheese.

dinner was chicken breast baked with the bone, skin on with goat cheese and sun dried tomatoes stuffed between skin and meat

cooked carrots with a tiny bit of honey and butter

plain broccoli with lemon

ETA you got me hunting around for more recipes and i found this, which im super excited about! ill try them tomorrow if i go out and get the ingredients

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/almond-banana-pancakes/

yummmmmmm


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## cristeen (Jan 20, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zach'smom*
> 
> If you don't any grains at all what would a days worth of meals be like? I am thinking about how I eat and every meal includes whole grain.
> 
> Are you just eating fruits, veggies, meats and beans? I am curious because grain based food is such a staple in most diets.


Yup, thats all i eat. And like i said above, the pervasive nature of grain in our societies diet makes it difficult, particularly when eating w other people or in a restaurant. We went to my dads Saturday for our Xmas celebration. And even though he had called beforehand to ask about diet, there was still blasted little for me to eat on the table. It was covered w dips and spreads, and the only veggies were pickles and saurekraut. I wound up eating ham, salami and lamb w as much of the veg as was polite.

To give you an idea of a days meals when im cooking, this was yesterday:
B - fritatta w/frz asparagus and leftover prime rib.
L - pb and celery sticks, 1/2 c of dates
D - beef "sloppy joe" stew, made w bell peppers, an entire bunch of celery, onions and lots of tomatoes.

Today will probably be similar, but w a bowl of cottage cheese and fruit for breakfast, and 1/2 an apple when i cut it up for DS.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Annie Mac*
> I'm a little confused -- are we talking about grains, or about processed foods containing white flours, white rice and the like? In the grain free link posted by geekgolightly, the author doesn't seem to include quinoa in the category of grains, but does mention processed flours and sugar, and there seems to be a similar attitude throughout this thread. You have problems with all of these? If so, oh, sad! (Probably not for you, but *I* would find it sad to eliminate all those foods. Of course, I'd feel different if they made me feel poorly, I'm sure). People have been eating millet, rice, barley, oats, wheat, quinoa, etc for quite some time. White bagels with hulled sesame seeds with a cream cheese like substance and jam? Considerably less so. Am I misunderstanding "grain?"


Grain typically refers to most of those you mentioned, whether its in whole or refined form. There are a few that are not considered grain botanically, as i mentioned above, and quinoa doesnt seem to have the abundance of problems some of the others do just because it hasnt been selectively bred. Some people are avoiding all of them. We each practice this in our own way.

Yes, people have been eating grain for a long time relative to your or my lifespan, but a short time relative to the lifetime of man. You also have to consider that no culture was eating all of those grains at once, like ours does, nor in such quantity. In SE Asia, there was rice. Russia had buckwheat and rye. Scotland had oats, the Americas had corn, etc. And none of them based their diets on it until much more recently. As hunter-gatherers, there just wasnt enough of it available for that. Not until our ancestors started settling down to cultivate the land was there an abundant supply of these grains. And that time line is different for every part of the world. But i believe the earliest cultivation was in the Egypt area around 12K yrs ago, of grains like spelt and quinoa. They didnt grow modern wheat and GMO corn.

Each area grew what was indigenous, and they adapted best to that grain. This is why someone of Asian descent can usually tolerate rice easier than corn or wheat. Or you get someone like me, with rice, buckwheat, rye and corn in my personal genealogy, but no wheat or oats. I can tolerate small/occassional amounts of those 4 far better than i could a bowl of oatmeal or pasta.

ETA - geek, those pancakes are excellent!


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

I am making something similar to this for our dinner tonight. I love this stuff. Sometimes I make spaghetti squash and mix it in, if I;m feeling especially nostalgic, but I like it on it's own.









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cristeen*
> 
> D - beef "sloppy joe" stew, made w bell peppers, an entire bunch of celery, onions and lots of tomatoes.


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## rush2ady (Nov 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Honestly, if low carb works for you, I have no problem with it. It doesn't work for me. Personally, my body does best on a diet based on complex carbs - whole grains. Meat is what makes me feel bloated, gassy and nauseous - and hungry again a short while later. Which is a kind of bizarre feeling, nauseous from the meat sitting in my stomach, and yet ravenous for something else. Give me equal calories in whole grains and I can go hours before I'm hungry again.


It seems you have your answer! It's good you pay attention to how you personally feel on a diet. If you feel best and healthiest including whole grains, then by all means, stick with it.

I'm a Dr. Mercola fan, and he divides people into protein types, carb types, and mixed (protein and carb) types. Most likely, you are a carb type. (he has a website if you're interested in his articles on nutrition)

Personally, I'm a protein type, and I do terribly with grains in my diet. My health and overall well-being has improved dramatically since I stopped eating grains and began eating more meat (I used to rarely eat meat, maybe once a week). Very occasionally I have some grains, but it's not a staple in my diet. My meals are primarily veggies, with meat/eggs, or raw dairy. And the veggies I choose are higher protein, lower carb ones like spinach. Not white potatoes.

I no longer believe in "one size fits all" where it comes to nutrition. You have to learn what works best for you.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Annie Mac*
> 
> People have been eating millet, rice, barley, oats, wheat, quinoa, etc for quite some time.


One thing you may find, if you read about this, is that sure, people have been eating those grains for a considerable length of time. But in most of the indigenous diets based on grains, the grains were prepared in very different ways from how we typically eat today-- they were usually soaked or sprouted or fermented in some fashion. Those processes significantly increase the digestibility of the grains, and increase the amount of nutrition the body is able to absorb from it. There is a big difference, for instance, between a loaf of commercial whole-wheat bread, which has been rapidly leavened with the aid of dough conditioners and a heavy dose of sweetener, and a slow-fermented whole-grain sourdough bread. Soaking used to be standard instructions on packages of oats, even processed rolled oats-- but the food industry needed to market oatmeal as a "quick" food, and so the instructions for an overnight soak were omitted from the package.

I eat grains-- a few times a week, more often in the winter. But when I eat them, I soak them overnight, or make a slow-rising bread.


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## frugalmum (Nov 5, 2009)

I have wondered the same thing... so many healthy cuisines are heavy in carbs, even refined carbs-- like chinese, french, mediterranean. The one thing those cuisines have in common, though, is that they are high in veggies. I too feel better when I eat carbs, including refined, regardless of all the literature I read against them. I have never had a weight problem. So right now I just go on what makes me feel best and I'm eating carbs. I am sugar-free though.

One problem with carbs is that it's easy to overdo it. One cup of flour has about 400 calories. So a single 3 cup loaf has nearly enough daily calories for a moderately active person. Maybe this is why people who cut down on carbs lose weight, because they were overeating on carbs to begin with.


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## newcastlemama (Jun 7, 2005)

It does not seem to help me (I wish it did!)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *frugalmum*
> 
> One problem with carbs is that it's easy to overdo it. One cup of flour has about 400 calories. So a single 3 cup loaf has nearly enough daily calories for a moderately active person. Maybe this is why people who cut down on carbs lose weight, because they were overeating on carbs to begin with.


I definitely was. That's why it was so interesting to me that cutting grains out eliminated the sugar cravings whereas cutting just sugar did nothing.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *newcastlemama*
> 
> It does not seem to help me (I wish it did!)










Okay, one more question about something I'm sure you've tried, have you ever had injera? It's made with teff which is a naturally gluten free wheat. Since soaking and fermenting don't help, I wonder if it's the gluten that causes the problems? If you haven't already tried it, go to an Ethiopian restaurant when you have a chance. Injera also has the advantage of being, imo, the best bread ever.

(Oh, hang on, restaurants will often add other flours to the teff, so maybe it'd be harder to test than I thought...)


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## Koalamom (Dec 27, 2007)

We tried injera here and it was made with a fermented started of teff, but it caused big rections here.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

How do we know what people were eating 12000 years ago? I'm a historian (far more recent history) and interested to know.


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## womenswisdom (Jan 5, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GoBecGo*
> 
> How do we know what people were eating 12000 years ago? I'm a historian (far more recent history) and interested to know.


Guns, Germs and Steel has a very good discussion of the timeline of the domestication of various plants IIRC.


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## nicolelynn (Aug 18, 2006)

I've been on both sides of this. I was perfectly healthy 5 years ago and just decided to start TF because it "made sense" to me. I felt good for a few years, and got pretty into low carb/low grain/Paleo for a couple years of that. I felt pretty good, for a while. I blasted veganism. Then I got terribly sick with an intestinal infection (blastocystis hominis and yeast) that lasted for 1.5 years. I tried to treat naturally and tried every herbal remedy out then and did even more strict grain-free very low carb high meat/animal fat as that's what most alternative medicine sources said would cure it. I lost a TON of weight, had no energy, was depressed, etc.

Then out of desperation I tried the opposite, not really thinking it would work. Added back all the grains (including the "evil" gluten!) and going mostly vegetarian. My healthy quickly improved: digestion, gained back weight, better moods, energy, skin cleared up. In fact a similar list PP gave for going grain-free =). Side note, it still didn't completely cure me, I gave in and finally took meds which cleared up the infection.

So it wasn't even the placebo effect for me, I was still "against it" while I was trying it. I guess I am the carb-type even though I was forcing myself to be a protein/fat type.

But I acknowledge that going paleo has helped a lot of people. As others have mentioned, I fully agree there there is no one diet for everyone. It's important to really experiment and listen to your own body, not matter how convincing someone's book is one what SHOULD work for everyone. Kind of fascinating how unique we all are like that =). It really irks me now when people say "no one can be nourished on a vegan diet" or "grain-free is for everyone" or the opposite "everyone can thrive on a vegan diet", etc.

It's also fascinating that new fossils of early man are being discovered, one that was pure vegetarian, some that ate cultivated grasses, etc..during a time period we thought all early man were still purely hunter-gatherers. It seems we have had diversified diets for a long time now.


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## NevadaMama (Oct 1, 2010)

I have been asking myself the same question since I started checking out the nutrition threads on MDC. My diet has been pretty carb-heavy since childhood, but in a slightly different way.

My family is Scandinavian (from Denmark originally), and I grew up eating lots of meat, fish, breads, root veggies (especially potatoes), and LOTS of dairy. Fruits and vegetables were a complete afterthought in our house - we would have horrified a lot of vegetarians & vegans! The only veggies we ate occasionally were green beans and broccoli, and virtually no fruit, just berries or jam once in a while. I never thought anything was "weird" about my diet til I met my husband at 23, and he couldn't believe that I didn't eat fruits or veggies!

To this day I rarely (and I mean RARELY) touch fruit or veg. I think I have had a salad maybe 3 times in my lifetime. It just doesn't appeal to me at all. My ideal lunch is a big hunk of homemade rye, a wedge of cheese and a glass of wine. Yum!

My health and my family's health has always been excellent. My father was a competitive cyclist for years and also cross-county skis. My grandparents lived well into their 90s. My weight as always been about the same - I'm 5'3" and hover around 125, I am curvy but definitely not fat (I think my boobs must weigh a good 10 lbs, lol). I always feel fine, am very positive and happy, and haven't been seriously sick since I had the flu at 17. I was 117 before I got pregnant with DD but gained a lot during my pregnancy because I was on bedrest for so long, I am trying to lose that last 10 lbs. which is what brought me here.

My husband, on the other hand, has been doing Paleo/GF for a year and is doing well. He has multiple issues, despite being thin and very active - pre-diabetes, lactose intolerant, gluten intolerant, sick/colds often. He is amazed at my health and immune system since we eat completely differently. However, our new neighbor, who is Swedish, eats virtually the same diet that I do, and is also thin, happy, healthy, and active - and she is a ski and yoga instructor!

I am trying to limit my carbs (bread, potatoes, rice) but it's been really difficult for me. I've been eating this way for 29 years, and I'm still not convinced that changing my diet is the way to go. This is an interesting thread though, I love to read different people's perspectives on food and to see what works for them. I really think that everyone is different, and that you have to do what works for you. Like a PP mentioned, Asian cultures have been eating meats, rice, and veggies for eons, but give them dairy and they can't handle it. I think it's the same with me and being Scandinavian, it's just in my blood to thrive on meats, grains, and dairy.


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## samstress (Feb 21, 2008)

i gotta say, i love my carbs.

especially if you're an athlete, which i am, carbs are THE preferred fuel source.

honestly, i guess i just try to balance everything and limit my intake of processed foods. currently i'm eating a lot more protein than i normally would, but i'm pregnant, so that's why.


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## CoBabyMaker (Nov 13, 2008)

This is a fascinating thread. I tend to agree with the "everyone's body is different" approach. I have couple questions for those that are grain free if that's ok...

1. I notice that if I try not to eat grains I have a really hard time getting full and staying full. Do you think that this is likely something that would go away and become less of an issue once my body adjusted to being grain-free?

2. When you talk about detoxing from grains are you referring to just your desire for grains and your perseved dependence or physically detoxing? I am nursing so I would need to be careful.


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## cristeen (Jan 20, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *CoBabyMaker* 

This is a fascinating thread. I tend to agree with the "everyone's body is different" approach. I have couple questions for those that are grain free if that's ok...

1. I notice that if I try not to eat grains I have a really hard time getting full and staying full. Do you think that this is likely something that would go away and become less of an issue once my body adjusted to being grain-free?

The getting/staying full is what I call the munchies. It usually lasts about a week for me. That's a week of being constantly hungry. I have to plan in advance for plenty of snacks. And it's perfectly normal. Once I get through that week though, then it's the opposite. Then I have appetite suppression.

2. When you talk about detoxing from grains are you referring to just your desire for grains and your perseved dependence or physically detoxing? I am nursing so I would need to be careful.

It is actually a physical detox, but not in a way that is dangerous for your nursling, so long as you're still eating/drinking enough. Your body is physically addicted, it's not a perception, and the withdrawal period can be brutal. If you eat plenty of other carbs though, it's not nearly as bad - fruits, veg, beans, starches (potatoes, sweet potatoes, etc.). When you go from SAD to low carb/grain free, that's probably the worst adjustment period.


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## plantnerd (Aug 20, 2010)

They are very calorie dense and break down to basically sugar in the digestive tract. Good for energy, bad for weight loss and weight maintenance. Your body will burn the carbs for fuel before anything else.


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## newcastlemama (Jun 7, 2005)

It sounds like your diet works for you and a lot of mamas hold onto the last 10 pounds while nursing. I would not start messing with your body (metabolism ect) if you are feeling good otherwise.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *NevadaMama*
> 
> I have been asking myself the same question since I started checking out the nutrition threads on MDC. My diet has been pretty carb-heavy since childhood, but in a slightly different way.
> 
> ...


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## staceychev (Mar 5, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cristeen*
> 
> When you go from SAD to low carb/grain free, that's probably the worst adjustment period.


Agree with all that Cristeen said (she's a smart patootey!), but also wanted to add: I actually went from SAD to organic to higher fat to low-grain and then when I cut out grains (I'm back to very very low grain now), I didn't have as much of a strong reaction to the withdrawal. I think the fact that my body was already mostly there helped make the transition easier.


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## cristeen (Jan 20, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *staceychev*
> 
> Agree with all that Cristeen said (she's a smart patootey!), but also wanted to add: I actually went from SAD to organic to higher fat to low-grain and then when I cut out grains (I'm back to very very low grain now), I didn't have as much of a strong reaction to the withdrawal. I think the fact that my body was already mostly there helped make the transition easier.


Awww, shucks!









Definitely! The small changes are much easier to get through. We did a similar progression, although we went SAD to LC (which was tough), back to semi-SAD, then to organic, back to LC, then to low-grain, then grain-free/sugar-free. When I got pregnant, diet became whatever I wanted, and then since DS was born, I've been eating a lot of grains. Over the last month I mindfully backed off of them knowing that on the 1st I'd be going GF. And the transition wasn't nearly as difficult - in fact I seem to have skipped the munchies completely and gone straight to appetite suppression, which rocks.


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