# What are we all doing wrong?



## swissmiss (Mar 22, 2005)

I know that *wrong* is a loaded word, but allow me to explain.
I joined this group and clicked immediately on this Forum, and it did my heart good to see that others were also troubled by the all-night nursing kids, but at the same time, it troubled me that so many of us are suffering this way. I'm a SAHM, after years of WOH, and I'm thankful that I can sit around in my pj's all morning and drink a cup of coffee to "recover" from the night before. I am certain that letting your baby/kid CIO is not natural, but is it really natural for all of us to be losing years of sleep?? My brother co-sleeps with wife and 2 DD's and he led me to Dr. Sears and AP, which do resonate with me, as do the beliefs and comments that I see here on Mothering.com, but still...In the real-time world, I have trouble connecting with other moms, since no one seems to share the same philosophy that I subscribe to. I've dropped out of the playgroup because we just couldn't get it together by 9:30am. DH sleeps in the guest room as he needs to get up early for work. But the worst part for me is that the lack of sleep has scotched our plans for TTC. I'm 43, and haven't slept for more than a couple of hours in a row for almost 3 years, and am just not mentally or physically equipped to be pregnant. Furthermore, I'm living overseas without my support system (OK, this influenced my #2 decision as well) which makes all this craziness just a little more crazy.
I have consulted several book authors and others in search of guidance, and they all say the same thing (from Dr. Sears): If it does not affect your daytime parenting ability, then hang in there and your baby will eventually sleep without needing to nurse. And I have to confess that after a cup 'a Joe and a little time at the computer while DS watches his favorite video, we have absolutely fabulous days together, while still having _hellish_ nights. Is this really natural?







: I'm not looking for suggestions, since I've read EVERY sleep book and FB book out there, but just had another bad night and needed to vent.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

I have no words of wisdom, Becky, except to say I have often wondered the very same thing.

Also, so sorry you have no support system.


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## rainbowmum (Nov 15, 2002)

I'm afraid after 2 years and 3 months of two hourly feeds and being a constant pacifier and getting no sleep and losing it all day I night weaned my son. Yes he cried, but I was with him the whle time and tried to be as gentle and gradula as possible..it took a few months. Now at 3 he sleeps so much better, still next to me. He does awake and cry sometimes but never asks for milk, just cuddles now and I find they don't keep me awake.
I am a lone-parent now but I imagine if I was TTC I'd have to set an alarm for the middle of the night or the very early hours!!!!
Hugs. It is hard and you have to do what feels right for you. Weaning felt right for me and I have not regretted it one bit cos I am a happier Mom with more sleep!


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## swissmiss (Mar 22, 2005)

I should add that I've attempted night-weaning recently, but am hesitant to allow much crying since we live in a very quiet apartment bldg. with mainly older couples around us (they are very sweet and welcoming to us during the day, but I doubt they would appreciate the wailing at all hours) and my son is what you would call "strong-willed" (euphemism for not always very cooperative) and will not go down without a fight!
It worked the first three nights (talking to him about it before sleeping, gently telling him to sleep on _his_ pillow when he whined) but then there was the backslide on the fourth night. This happened twice, then I found excuses (like we're going to the in-laws' for the weekend, etc.) to put off further attempts.
I do appreciate the comment that it can take months, and maybe I just need to be more persevering in my attempts, and that goes for the rest of us too!







Here's hoping!


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## mamasarah (May 28, 2002)

hi and







you will definitely find a support system here.

i struggled with the nighttime nursing too, especially when dd was teething. we weaned when she was a few months over 2, when i was pregnant and in a lot of pain when i tried to breastfeed.

what is it that makes you sleep deprived, exactly? is it the nursing or does he actually get up in the middle of the night? maybe a different bedtime would help you (i go to bed oh so early just to get as much as i can!)?
maybe with a little more info i could give better advice.

i know how hard it is to not have a support system around you and that probably contributes but just try to remember you are not alone! there are plenty of us out here!!
sending lots of hugs your way.


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## lifetapestry (Apr 14, 2003)

I'll start out by saying that I don't think there's anything wrong with frequent night nursers who are 2, 3, 4 etc. But for me, my DS' night nursing felt unnatural starting at around 18 months. It felt "unnatural" not only for me, but for him-- because I felt that night nursing was messing with his sleeping patterns.

I think that night weaning is "natural", just like I think that setting limits on nursing is "natural". I'm not an anthropological expert, and I think that field has a long history of sexism where how other cultures do things (like night nursing) have not been uncovered and/or discussed by male anthropologists. Kathryn Dettwyler's articles and books talk about culture (in primates and humans), but she doesn't talk about breastfeeding limits or nightweaning:

http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detwean.html

I think these things about nightweaning and limit-setting because I have observed them in various creatures, including my lactating dog and primates in captivity. Mothers will "brush off" babes who want to nurse if they are busy. I guess I would just be surprised if mothers did not nightwean in most cultures where family beds and extending BFing are common-- because many of those are hunter/gatherer societies where women's gathering requires plenty of physical stamina, which might be hard in an extended sleep-deprived state. And in my limited study of these types of societies, it does not appear to me that "nursing on demand" during the day necessarily happens, at least beyond the newborn stage.

The luxury (and I mean this in a positive way, not in a lazy/spoiled/consumerist way) of SAHMing where one can completely focus on one's child(ren) rarely occurs outside of western culture. It is truly a luxury in the best sense of the world to revolve family life around a child, and do what feels natural as a mother. I don't think there's really an objective side to what is "natural", but I know that pretty much every mother feels that certain practices are natural (sort of a pseudonym for "authentic" or "right") and some are not. While I don't think that I could identify what *should* be natural, I do know that what's natural for me is not extended nightnursing.

I still remember talking with my DH about this before I decided that I wanted to nightwean, especially because I was wondering if it would solve the real issue -- the night waking that was "fixed" by the night nursing. I was concerned that I'd just be removing my soothing tool for the waking and I'd end up with a frequently waking, constantly unhappy child. That didn't turn out to be the case -- I'm not sure of the mechanism, but the nightweaning cured the night waking. This seems to be the experience of many mothers, and as my DH once put it -- hey, I'd be likely to wake up and grab a tasty snack if I slept next to the refrigerator.

Anyway, I don't think that extended night nursing is wrong, if it works for you. But I have a hard time understanding why you'd want to continue it if it reduces your physical health. I'm not really sure why the benefits outweigh the costs. But I am not asking you to justify yourself, so please don't take this as a request to do so.

Karla


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## CB73 (Apr 16, 2005)

Welcome!

Fabulous question for which there is really no answer.
You asked for no advice, and I have none to give, since my DS is 20MO and still wakes 2-3x a night. (I did a gentle weaning process and now no longer nurse at night...or at least between the hours of 8pm -5am)









Is it something we are doing "wrong", or is this what parenting at its best is all about? I WOTH 3 days a week and literally struggle to get moving...my days at home are easier, as you describe with pj's and cup o' something! So, perhaps we are not meant to be the workaholics that we "all" have become? Perhaps parenting brings us back to 'cave' times when raising children was all we were focused on, while others did the tasks of hunting/gathering/cleaning/whatever....but for how long?

Anyhow...I think about this often - thanks for putting it into words very well.

My personal philosophy is that relationships need to be healthy and happy for both parties -and nursing is no exception. When something does not feel quite right, it needs adjustment. Teaching a child that complete self-sacrifice is required to be a good 'parent', if you are unhappy and send off vibes as such, IMO. PP said it very well.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

What a GREAT post, Karla! I think EXACTLY the same things, but I've been very reluctant to post something like that here at MDC. I'm not an expert, either but it seems to me that most animals brush off their young at some point - they begin to encourage independence for their young. It seems quite natural to me.

As for Sears - well, he's not a woman, ya know? He can talk about how great CLW is, but it's not really HIM doing it, it's his wife. Same for this 24/7 babywearing thing. Easy for him to talk about it - he's putting the baby in a sling for a few hours in the evening. What a NOVELTY. He neglects ANY mention of the emotional health or emotional make-up of the mother. He misses the point that cultures that do this have COMMUNITY support. The babies get passed and worn among MANY women and girls. Not one mom at home alone with her kids. One book I really like is Working Mother, Nursing Mother because it discusses the emotional state of the WOH mother.

If it helps you, there is a Mother-led-weaning thread on BF. I think there is NOTHING wrong with setting limits on nursing. A LOT of limits if you need to.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swissmiss*
I should add that I've attempted night-weaning recently, but am hesitant to allow much crying since we live in a very quiet apartment bldg.

How much is he nursing at night? Could you limit him to one nu-nu after he sleeps and then say that you'll nurse again when it's light out? How many sessions are you trying to cut out at once? I think it's fine to say that you and your boobs need to rest at night. I think it always helps to let them know WHEN they can have it again. For me, nonnies on weekends have to come after naps. Someone else made nursing cards for their toddler. They had a certain number every day. But the mom was flexible if she ran out and really needed it. There is also the "bitter herbs" solution where mothers put something foul tasting on their breasts.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

You can consult a zillion AP book authors and every parenting website on the internet, and the answer still has to come from inside of you.

There's nothing "wrong" with nursing on cue 24/7 if you're both comfortable with that- and there's also nothing "wrong" with setting limits if you're NOT comfortable with the way things are going.

Sometimes, all it takes is a shift in perspective to feel OK with things- "OK, I'm more tired now, I move more slowly, such is life with a young child." Maybe the night wouldn't seem so "Hellish" if you changed your expectations. Or maybe you can just accept the fact that you're going to have "Hellish" nights sometimes and that's OK. On the other hand, you may need to make changes or establish a more structured routine in order to feel that you're coping well.


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## swissmiss (Mar 22, 2005)

Thanks all, for posting!
I could *really* appreciate Karla's POV, since I have been curious for months about how weaning takes place in the animal world--I even had the audacity to ask at a LLL meeting how primates go about weaning, and the response was that the leader "didn't know". And I've read Kathy D's web site and have even corresponded with her on this topic. I assumed that animals would push their nurslings away, and I've seen farm animals do that around here, but those I've consulted would have us believe that it is most "natural" (I'm trying to avoid using the word "should") when the child weans him/herself! Hmmm....I haven't read "How Weaning Happens" (LLL) since an online reviewer said that it should really be called, "How Weaning Doesn't Happen". I've read people's various weaning stories on the LLL web site, and it is still confusing.
I also appreciate the comment that one's attitude/expectations can be adjusted. That is the *only* way I've gotten through these years, but it seemed that he's nursing most of the night for the last week, and that prompted me to write. He doesn't seem to be awake for any of it, as he barely opens his sleepy eyes at 7:30 or 8 am, and then he is totally rested and is a delight for the whole day. Full of energy and tons of fun.
I also liked the point made about Dr. Sears not being a woman, i.e., that the babywearing and holding can take place more easily when there are others involved. I had to hire a babysitter for afternoons when my DS was not yet crawling and I just couldn't carry him around all day, sling or no sling, even though I wanted to.
If it does take a village to raise a child, that would explain why I needed to open up to you all and see what came back to me. I have plenty to think about, and I will not give up on night-weaning, or at least on gentle reminders.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Cosleeping and all night nursing stopped working for me at about nine months. My daughter was sleeping with us full-time and spent the first half of the night nursing. I have two other kids, one a toddler, a husband that was working all the time, and I do not function well without at least 6.5-7 hours of sleep. I had a headache all the time, I had no energy to be a good mom during the day, and I was angry and resentful that my husband and even the kids were sleeping and rested and happy and I was not. I decided that parenting is about more than how we sleep and how much the baby nurses at night and made some changes.

I started putting her to sleep in a playpen next to my bed. I nursed her to sleep in my bed and then put her in the playpen. The very first night she slept until about 4:00, I don't remember exactly, and then got up to nurse. After she nursed she stayed in bed with us until it was time to get up, and this became our routine. At 11 months I started putting her back in her playpen after she nursed and she had no problem with it. She'd lay there and play and then go back to sleep. At about a year, she stopped waking up to nurse completely and I put her in her own room on a futon mattress on the floor. That was a more difficult transition because I tried to rock her to sleep at night. One night I got frustrated after an hour and put her in her room, with the baby gate up of course, and she played for a few minutes and went to bed. (We do the "room as a crib". Her entire room is babyproofed and it is safe for her to be in there alone.) The next night I said a little prayer and put her in her room at bedtime, no rocking, and she did the same thing. This has been our routine since then and she's 17 months now.

My 3yo is still in our bed most of the night and was in bed with us full-time until he was almost three. I'm not opposed to cosleeping and night nursing in theory, only when it interferes with daytime parenting. It didn't with my 3yo, but it most certainly did with my 1yo. I strongly disagree with the notion that one or two aspects of parenting, such as cosleeping or night nursing, are worth sacrificing our entire relationships with our children and our mental health. Nothing works for everyone. You can decide to nightwean a toddler, or at least set limits, and still be an attached parent. I felt like a rock star after I decided that I couldn't deal with the all-night nursing anymore and put my baby in a playpen next to my bed. I'd forgotten what it felt like to be well-rested. I didn't have headaches anymore and we actually made it out of the house to playgroups and other fun things.

Best of luck to you. I hope you find something that works.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I should add that we have had bad nights in between. There are still nights when she wakes up at 11:00 and doesn't go back to sleep until after 3:00. I'm not sure what causes it, but those nights are much fewer and further between. I'm also able to recover from those nights more quickly because I'm not dealing with true sleep deprivation, which I was when she was up all night every night.


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## Mama Rana (Aug 18, 2004)

Karla and Eileen I want to thank you so much for your posts. They were really very thought-provoking. I want to go read more about how weaning/limiting occurs in other animals.

A friend of mine who is more AP/NFL than most of my other friends, but still not quite as into as me in a lot of ways (with the exception that she is very big into the organic foods/no sugar; not that it matters to this discussion), anyway, she recently mentioned that she was "sleep-training" her son who is a month or two younger than mine who is almost 13 months. At first I was hesitant to ask for further details, cuz I'm not a fan of the term, and most "training" programs involve CIO. Anyway, she says she's using Kim West's "Good Night, Sleep Tight". Apparently a mutual friend of ours actually went to Kim to get help with her daughter. So now I'm curious if anyone knows anything about her "program". I've requested the book from the library but they are still in the process of buying it.


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

I too frequently wonder what first and native cultures do and did at night. I wonder if they just let babies who want and need to be attached to the breast all night and they just pass out too because they are so tired after a day's work. I too wonder if they set limits. It seems like most of them don't things that would cause crying.
I also think that if you think about it people often have trouble sleeping, can't get back to sleep, have a restless night's sleep, and have a physical discomfort. I think we tend to have a different set of standards for baby's sleep. We also tend to enforce schedules and needs according to adult standards. Many babies can't just lay there trying to go back to sleep, they need mama's comfort, until they are older.
Finally, since this is the Nighttime parenting board where people gather for support, people with "problems" come. Since I don't know of any research, I have nothing to back this belief up, but I firmly believe there are many AP/breast fed on damand families who have no sleep issues.


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## mandalamama (Sep 1, 2004)

i've wondered the same thing, too. and i'm not even breastfeeding! (long story.) i feed on cue/demand, so Willow always wakes for one night feeding and sometimes two or more. lately, she's been "cluster bottle-nursing" every 2 hours at night, because she's going through big developmental stuff during the day (like sitting up). i wish i could just offer her a boob, it sounds so much easier! but then i read that we're all losing sleep, regardless of how we feed our babes.

on my part, i know i lose sleep because i just don't fall back asleep that easily at night. during the day, i can catnap 20 minutes at a time and feel refreshed. at night, i need at least 4 solid hours of sleep to feel good, so when Willow is waking to eat frequently, i feel crazy by morning and i'm a zombie the rest of the day.

just wanted to say that FF babes wake up too, *IF* their mamas feed on cue and co-sleep. the other FF mamas i know are all mainstream, and they refuse to feed their babies at all in the night!!







i feed Willow always as if she is breastfed, i.e. i ask myself "what would i do if i were nursing her?" and i sure as hell wouldn't ignore a nighttime cry of hunger! it hasn't occurred to me to night-wean yet, although there are times when i can tell she's not truly hungry, and just putting a soft blanket in her hands to curl up with zonks her right back to sleep. sometimes she is just smooshed up against me and needs to be rolled over to fall asleep again. other times i can tell i need to go make that damn bottle and snuzzle with her while she eats, then she'll fall asleep. i've got a system, down to 1 minute per warm bottle prep, but still! it's MUCH harder than breastfeeding, which i make a HUGE point to tell new mamas who think BFing is "too hard".

i figure i'll be losing sleep for at least another 2 years, if not longer. i catch catnaps whenever i can during the day.


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## ms. pacman (May 4, 2004)

I've really enjoyed reading the replies as this is something I've been thinking about a lot lately. My 10.5 month dd is a very restless light sleeper for a good part of the night, constantly on and off the breast (I think the later part of the night/morning is much worse) and I am struggling between the fact that it does feel right to have her in bed with us, but something doesn't feel right about how restless her sleep is. I put a mattress on the floor at the foot of the bed and used it one night. Dh said, "can dd come back to the family bed?" in a really cute way so I let him bring her up to our bed again.

Getting so little sleep does affect my day as I feel tired a good part of the time. Coffee does help







My nipples also feel like they're going to fall off some mornings. But during the night it really is just easiest to put her on the boob. I also don't want to do her a disservice if her sleep is not restful. Oh I don't know. I'm confused. But I really do like reading what you all have to say


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## jdlobe (Jan 13, 2005)

Just to second what Willow said.... night waking is not limited to BF babies. I supplemented my daughter with a SNS system; however, she weaned herself from the system when she wasn't getting enough from the tubes (again long story). She "wakes" between 2 and 5 times a night. I give her a bottle one of those times when I can't settle her by cuddling (like Willow I feed on demand). I honestly believe that many times her natural sleeping restlessness wake me up and I feel a need to respond to her (cuddling) when she would eventually settle herself. I kind of figure this is the price to pay for co-sleeping. And yet I feel rested during the day - if I have a rough night, I usually can make up for it later by going to bed early another night. I really wish sometimes that I was able to BF her at night like I used to, because it was alot easier to settle her when she gets riled up (now I have to rock her)







: . For me a successful night is one where my feet don't hit the floor!!

I've heard that babies don't sleep consistently until age 3 and on the dark days, I just think to myself that in a few years, I will have a hard time remembering the deprivation and I will miss waking up and snuggling my daughter.


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## Mama2ABCD (Jun 14, 2003)

my dd is almost 14 mos and she does not sleep through the night nor do i expect her too. i love having her next to me and i wake 2 a night to nurse her. She goes through "restless" periods and i feel like i've nursed all night. but those "restless" times are when she's cutting teeth. We've just got through one of those times recently when she cut 2 molars. And we'll got through it again soon.
I've nursed my two boys at night until they were 3 1/2 and 2. I slowly, gently nightweaned them when i was preg with my dd . They both nursed at the same times each night. Twice during the night. So i weaned them together.
My oldest who is now 5 is my night waker. I think my middle child would have nightweaned on his own earlier if not for his brother. He's the child that sleeps all night. My oldest just crawls into bed with me when he wakes for the 1st time.
I recognize that all my children are different. I don't worry about my 5 y.o not sleeping without waking. He's got a mind that doesn't turn off. My dh wakes several times during the night, so maybe it's hereditary.
We did finally get the boys bunks and for the last 2 weeks, my oldest has slept thru, but then last night he woke and found me.
I decided that long ago, i would enjoy this time even if i did not get much sleep. That's over 5 years of not sleeping through the night (except for the few months in my last preg) and i'm soooo used to it! I work partime out of the home, so my hours are flexible which helps.
I know i am doing the best for my children and they are thriving very well because of it! They will never have security issues!!!
A few years is not a very long time, and you won't regret losing the sleep in the end!


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Something that always comes to mind in these discussions:

Can you sleep through (most) nursing sessions?

I can't-- I have found that people who really struggle with sleep issues usually cannot sleep through nursing sessions. It makes a huge difference, IMO.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

With my second I was able to sleep through nursing, or at least not wake up all the way, because it wasn't all night and he would nurse and go right back to sleep. My youngest, on the other hand, kicked and squirmed and pulled at my hair-- not condusive to sleeping.

It really, really just didn't feel right that I was a zombie during the day and a teary mess at night.


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## Eman'smom (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius*
Something that always comes to mind in these discussions:

Can you sleep through (most) nursing sessions?

I can't-- I have found that people who really struggle with sleep issues usually cannot sleep through nursing sessions. It makes a huge difference, IMO.











This is why we had to start night weaning, whenever she would nurse, I'd be AWAKE, she'd nurse for 5-15 minutes, then I'd lay there for another 30 trying to get back to sleep, do the math with a bab that wakes 3-4 times on a good night, I'd just be falling back to sleep when she'd wake again.

I also think that mom's today are expected to do so much more than before, we don't have the support system we used to and it puts a strain on everyone.


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## firstwomantomars (Mar 2, 2005)

Glad you "dared" to open up the discussion on this question!!!

I think it's the support system that's lacking, and the impossibility of adapting our daily routine to life with a baby or very young child in our culture, even for SAHM.

We did cosleep with our son for a few years, some of which I worked (out of the home), some of which I "stayed home". He often nursed "all night", but I was able to get some sleep through most of it. I liked the closeness and we kinda "caught up" on our need to cuddle when we couldn't be together much during the day.

But for us, it was natural, I didn't know at the time what AP, cosleeping, etc. meant. It was just easier for us that way.

So probably, or just maybe?, if we didn't have any book to read pro or against cosleeping, nightweaning, and it was more easily allowed in our cultures to follow our instinct as parents, we would each find a solution (or several) that works best for us and our children.

Just asking the question and seeing so many people respond is a big step.

I love cosleeping so I'll probably continue, but OH IT WOULD HELP if I had someone to "take over" for me a few times during the week, someone I could trust (a friend, family member, neighbor), who would hold, cuddle and play with my baby while I take a nap or some me-time.

That's why I feel that a support system would make all these things easier, once we as parents have an idea of what we'd like to do (cosleep or not, nursing at night or not, ...).

So a village-type culture centered around family life and children sounds good to me right now...

I'm curious to read more reactions to your post SwissMiss and I wish you plenty of good restfull sleep!


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## lifetapestry (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius*
Something that always comes to mind in these discussions:

Can you sleep through (most) nursing sessions?

I can't-- I have found that people who really struggle with sleep issues usually cannot sleep through nursing sessions. It makes a huge difference, IMO.

Yep, I agree. I also think that it depends on the number of nightwakings, and how close they are together.

I remember feeling very rested in the "newborn" stage, until my son was 9 months or so. We would stay in bed for 12 hours, from 9 pm until 9am, and I didn't feel there was anything amiss in his nightwakings. I didn't expect him to sleep through the night (aka 5 hour stretch, and he never did more than a couple of hours). But his night nursings were fast and gentle, and I think I did fall asleep before he did much of the time.

Something happened at around 9 months, and at first I dismissed it as teething, until all his teeth but the 2 year molars were in at 18 months. His nightwakings were more frequent and longer, and he would often use nursing as entertainment, which would keep me awake. Then I'd finally fall back asleep and he'd be waking me again in 20 minutes. I felt like one of those "victims" in that sleep torture where you finally get to fall asleep, but then are awakened by your interogator immediately thereafter. But more importantly, I didn't feel that he was rested in the morning. It wasn't just a phase . . . I waited 9 months to see if it would turn itself around. It didn't feel like "natural" nightwaking and, after looking around for the various methods, I nightweaned him. I am 100% sure it was the best thing for him, and his sleep (and mine) improved dramatically. He is no less attached and no less interested in nursing (he's almost 4 now).

Karla


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

Don't forget that you usually only hear PROBLEMS on these message boards.

I cosleep with an infant, have coslept with my now-moved-out kids, but we've never had problems. So I'm rarely on this board. I'll admit that I was lured in by the link to this discussion on the main forums listing.

I don't entirely sleep through night nursings but I don't entirely wake up either. It is a fog. I usually have no idea when or how many occur at any given night. Sometimes I think I haven't, but my shirt is open in the morning.

I did night-wean my now-older children, but both were night-weaned during pregnancies (I have really outrageous sleep needs during the first and most of the second trimester, around 15-17 hours of sleep a day). We coslept with both right on through the pregnancies despite night-weaning. I found that the closeness was still all there, maybe even better (it is nice to be snuggled into instead of searched sometimes, kwim?).

Anyway, to come to the point...even though I don't have PROBLEMS with these issues, I still need my morning coffee. I took a pharmacology class a while back and one of the things we learned was that in every culture with access to a plant that contained caffeine, there is a caffeinated food or drink that they use. So who's saying coffee isn't natural









That's all I really wanted to say. Maybe I'm more sleep-deprived than I thought, it took me so long to hit the point...


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## BathrobeGoddess (Nov 19, 2001)

I don't think we, as AP moms, do anything wrong except that we (at least I get this feeling) want to be as AP as possible. If we choose to do something like have a crib, nightwean, or bottle feed for whatever reason, we often feel like a failure as a AP mom. I know I have sometimes felt that way. I think I exspect myslef to be perfect...

I nightweaned ds at 12 months. He was ready and only woke once for about 5 months before that, and he has slept from 8pm- 5:30 am every night since then. He also puts himself to sleep at night and at naps. I have a very constitent schedual for both my kids, mostly because I need structure to function. I wish I knew what it is that I did right (with both my kids, my dd is the same way) but most likely I think it is just their temperments. If he cried, or fussed at sleeping times, I would nurse to sleep or rock or walk or whatever him just like everyone here...


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## Vicitoria (Dec 17, 2004)

I don't think it's natural. I really don't. I think it comes down to what we envision before having a child and then what it really comes down to when it's time to do the parenting. I FF because I never produced but when ds sleeps with us he goes through at least 8 ounces of formula. He tosses and turns but still wakes up and is ready to go at 6am. Then it got to the point he wasn't sleeping well and either were we. He sleeps alone for the most part now, no nighttime bottles unless he's sick and it's all good all over. We really tried putting it off but when it came right down to it, it was the best thing. The really interesting thing is although there is crying involved in the changes it really isn't that much and it only lasts for a few days if that long. We were putting it off for us and what we were trying to accomplish ap-wise but it wasn't the right thing. There was no "natural" in the natural parenting. Our children are more independent then we often think they are and they wish to be so. They'll let us know when they need us.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

This is why I am on the fence. First, let me say I cosleep/coslept with my children, and I am not opposed to it. I also breastfeed and support breastfeeding. Just wanted to make this clear.

Going on kid number four, reading literally dozen of parenting books, thousands of web pages and talking to numerous mothers I have found that their seems to be a push for extremes, a lack of discipline among the AP crowd, and a sense of martyrdom for the right thing.
Cosleeping can be wonderful, but it can also become a pain in your side -- literally. I find it appalling when I find mothers say that it doesnt interfere with intimacy (that they can have sex elsewhere) and that the lack of sleep doesn't affect how they function during the day to other mothers. Frankly I don't believe them and think they are trying to blow smoke at the rest of us who are questioning if this is something we should continue, limit, or change. I've read enough about sleep deprivation, especially in women, to know that it can bring on depression, health problems, hormone problems, forgetfulness and problems with concentration. I've also read a great deal about children who can't sleep through the night -- the truth is, developmentally a 6-12m old child can sleep up to six hours without waking -- unless they have health problems. While yes, some nightwaking is expected in toddlers -- frequent night waking is not healthy. Toddlers need sleep for optimal neurological development and physical development, lack of sleep can cause behavioral problems (moms around the ap/nfl community jump to say its diet instead of looking at sleep), and frequent night waking can be a discipline problem. (I have BTDT have the t-shirt) Also, cosleeping can affect marriages and intimacy, not for everyone but it can and to discount this is misleading and just plain wrong.

If a mom is having trouble sleeping because of cosleeping, or the child, its time to do something different. "Sleep training" doesn't have to be abusive or bad, in fact it can incredibly help families and children. I am not suggesting letting a baby CIO, but a toddler, well, they can turn it on as fast as they can turn it off. This is when a parent needs to discern wants vs needs. Its not always the right thing to do to stick your boob in the kids mouth just because they want it to pacify themselves on it. And if you choose to stop night nursing, or quit cosleeping and do something different, don't feel mommy guilt over it -- I seriously doubt your children will be emotionally scarred from the event. As I have said before, our family psychiatrist has said in 20 years of working with families and children that he has never had a child, teen or young adult come in with behavioral or emotional problems because their mother sleep trained them -- however he said he couldn't count the number of times that families and children had come in and had problems with sleep or problems dating back to bad sleeping habits as toddler or young preschoolers.

I think we as moms get so wrapped up into doing what we believe or have been told is right, vs what is right for our children and for ourselves. Sometimes our ideals don't work out -- and thats okay! IT doesnt make us bad moms, and doesn't mean if we do something different our kids will be damaged. You need to to do what is best for you and your kids, and what makes you the healthiest, well rested parent you can be.


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
our family psychiatrist has said in 20 years of working with families and children that he has never had a child, teen or young adult come in with behavioral or emotional problems because their mother sleep trained them -- however he said he couldn't count the number of times that families and children had come in and had problems with sleep or problems dating back to bad sleeping habits as toddler or young preschoolers.

Just wanted to note that this is hardly evidence. It's entirely possible that this psychiatrist could have been prejudiced against co-sleeping/night-nursing from the very beginning and has selectively interpreted his diagnoses in the light of that prejudice. Kind of like a pediatrician saying "Nonsense! Vaccines don't cause reactions!" and then refusing to admit a reaction was from vaccines because, well, vaccines don't cause reactions. KWIM?

As for the "natural" vs. "unnatural" argument, I think of course it is natural for infants to be in proximity to their caregivers at night as well as day, and of course nursing at night as long as mutually beneficial is natural too. I think some good points were made about animals "brushing off" older nurslings, though -- to me, the key is "mutually beneficial".

But I really think that the core issue is how we live in a society now that refuses to accomodate these practices even when they *would* otherwise be mutually beneficial. It's not a problem with the practice, it's a problem with the society. And I find it interesting that you would say that, about your psychiatrist talking about sleep problems and bad sleeping habits, when sleeping habits are so largely cultural. I recall it being brought up here more than once that sleeping through the night, all night, is a relatively recent expectation. So once again that could be an issue with our modern expectations clashing with our biological norms.

ETA:

Quote:

You need to to do what is best for you and your kids, and what makes you the healthiest, well rested parent you can be.
I agree with this. Especially with the clash between an unsupportive society and AP ideals, I agree completely that each family has to navigate as best they can for their individual needs.


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## Vicitoria (Dec 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*

their seems to be a push for extremes, a lack of discipline among the AP crowd, and a sense of martyrdom for the right thing.
Cosleeping can be wonderful, but it can also become a pain in your side -- literally. I find it appalling when I find mothers say that it doesnt interfere with intimacy (that they can have sex elsewhere) and that the lack of sleep doesn't affect how they function during the day to other mothers. Frankly I don't believe them and think they are trying to blow smoke at the rest of us who are questioning if this is something we should continue, limit, or change. I've read enough about sleep deprivation, especially in women, to know that it can bring on depression, health problems, hormone problems, forgetfulness and problems with concentration. I've also read a great deal about children who can't sleep through the night -- the truth is, developmentally a 6-12m old child can sleep up to six hours without waking -- unless they have health problems. While yes, some nightwaking is expected in toddlers -- frequent night waking is not healthy. Toddlers need sleep for optimal neurological development and physical development, lack of sleep can cause behavioral problems (moms around the ap/nfl community jump to say its diet instead of looking at sleep), and frequent night waking can be a discipline problem. (I have BTDT have the t-shirt) Also, cosleeping can affect marriages and intimacy, not for everyone but it can and to discount this is misleading and just plain wrong.

I think we as moms get so wrapped up into doing what we believe or have been told is right, vs what is right for our children and for ourselves. Sometimes our ideals don't work out -- and thats okay! IT doesnt make us bad moms, and doesn't mean if we do something different our kids will be damaged. You need to to do what is best for you and your kids, and what makes you the healthiest, well rested parent you can be.









Thank you! I stir up alot sometimes but have never quite had the courage to speak this much truth! I guess it's the four kids that give it to you. Thanks!


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *girlndocs*
Just wanted to note that this is hardly evidence. It's entirely possible that this psychiatrist could have been prejudiced against co-sleeping/night-nursing from the very beginning and has selectively interpreted his diagnoses in the light of that prejudice. Kind of like a pediatrician saying "Nonsense! Vaccines don't cause reactions!" and then refusing to admit a reaction was from vaccines because, well, vaccines don't cause reactions. KWIM?


Actually you would be wrong. There are plenty of studies to show that sleep disturbance is harmful to adults and children, cosleeping or not. You ASSUMED he was against cosleeping, he isn't nor is he against night nursing, he actually coslept with his own children. He thinks there should be limits and he thinks parents need to discern between wants and needs. Far too many times he has seen sleep deprived parents with children exhibiting behavioral problems because of the lack of discipline in the home, and some are about sleeping at night.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vicitoria*







Thank you! I stir up alot sometimes but have never quite had the courage to speak this much truth! I guess it's the four kids that give it to you. Thanks!

I made a vow when I was 30 to stop BSing. LOL I am also tired of ap/nfl moms whispering to me "I really did this, or had to do this" but in an open conversation or community they keep their lips tightly sealed. Why be this way? So I stopped.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

As I've been reading this thread, I've been reminded of this article:
http://www.continuum-concept.org/rea...InControl.html
It doesn't deal specifically with co-sleeping or with weaning, but what it does deal with is the consequences of overdoing "child-centered" to the point that a parent become a martyr, and clarifies the difference between "in-arms" parenting, and "child-led" parenting.

To me, it's a very telling point. I do not believe in being "child-centered," and that makes me stand out in this neck of the woods. I do believe in co-sleeping for infants; I think there is a real biological need for mother and baby to be in physical contact all night. But I don't believe this in-arms phase was meant to continue uninterrupted into early childhood. There are some children who will naturally wean themselves out of the family bed, but there are some who take much longer, and I don't see where the idea came from that it is somehow wrong for the parent to take charge and direct a gentle weaning process.

The same for breastfeeding and weaning.

I don't think there's anything WRONG with extended nursing or extended co-sleeping, but I worry that families are persisting with arrangements that are clearly not working out of the idea that it is wrong to take an active hand in gently transitioning to arrangements that work better for the individuals involved.

I think of the analogy of other animals nursing. My cat nursed her kittens on demand for about 5 weeks or so, and then she started chewing cat food for them and putting it in their mouths, and nursing less. When they wanted to nurse and she didn't want to, she'd gently paw them on the nose and push them away. And somewhere around 10 weeks, she said enough is enough and actually started biting them if they tried to nurse. No hard feelings on either end, but she knew it was time to push them out of the nest and she did so.

I know I'm not making much sense here. I've got an 8-mo grabbing at the mouse and getting angry because I won't let her have it, so I have to go, but I wanted to jump in and say I'm glad of this thread and I think we're saying things that really need saying.


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## firstwomantomars (Mar 2, 2005)

I like the ideas that have been brought up here, it's so true we sometimes need to use moderation and wisdom and not just adopt a practice all the way, no matter what the consequences are for all those involved (whether it be breastfeeding on demand, cosleeping or even probably sleep-training, etc.).

But I do want to say that I enjoy cosleeping, I loved it with my son and he nursed often at night. Of course, I was tired at times but I've had other times like that in my life (preparing for exams or presentations). And I really remember sleeping through a lot of it (the nursing not the exams! :LOL )!!! I just wanted to say that at least some of us that say they enjoyed extended cosleeping without nightweaning are sincere!

Sweet dreams (and lots of restful sleep) to everyone!


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## Angierae (Aug 17, 2004)

I do think there are times when some of us get obsessed with what dh calls "extreme" attchment parenting. If any kind of parenting is truly not working then, obviously make a change. Sometimes small changes work, sometimes bigger changes may be needed. Done out of love, and for the right reasons, we shouldn't beat ourselves up over it. Part of the problem, is admiting that something we wanted didn't work.

I have been reluctant to change parenting a style that has brought a lot of joy to me and my children, even during difficult phases. Fortunatlely for me, they were only phases. For my family, only small adjustments were needed and I am happily cosleeping with and night nursing both my 1 and 4 yo daughters. I also am a sahm and have the luxury of being tired on the tough nights. And, Yes, I do sleep through night nursings a lot of the time. It works for us.

Also, this board is a place where I come to feel accepted about my decision to continue to co sleep and night nurse. I don't have to go far from my front door to find 100 people tell me to night wean and sleep train. I don't expext to come here and be told it isn't "natural".

Be careful about statements like "the truth is, developmentally a 6-12m old child can sleep up to six hours without waking -- unless they have health problems." There is no such "truth" for ALL babies. It is true that babies are not supposed to sleep like adults, and that each baby develops sleep maturity according to his own timetable. Also, just because they CAN sleep through the night it doesn't follow that they SHOULD. Factor in personality, lifestyle, developmental milestones, teething, gas, stress, what kind of day they had, what kind of day you had,...the list goes on. I do not consider these to be health problems. Just real life. It worries me when I hear these statements, because it often quickly devolves into parents believing thet must make their baby sleep in 6 hour streches. That they are failing or "wrong" if their baby wakes more often. Please lets not put artificial standards on our babies and especially not on babies we don't know.


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Allow some dissent, please.









I don't think it's necessarily overattachment to attachment parenting. It seems to me it's sometimes overattachment to certain ideas of how life should be that just don't match the reality of life with young children. And a lot of people are looking for a magic pill, so to speak, that will cause their children to instantly sleep quietly and calmly through the night all night every night and never need to nurse more than once every five hours and and and ...

Not saying that all the folks with complaints/difficulties are looking at it that way, just saying that it's hard to get to the reality under all the promises all those other parenting methods/books are making ...

Yeah, you can do it "the other way," the so-called nonAP or mainstream way, and sure, you'll find results that match whatever Dr. Ferber promises, or somesuch, but you can also do it this way. And sometimes it works. Sometimes not, but sometimes yes.

Because this is reality.

Sorry if that came off as ... well, you know what I mean. I didn't mean it to sound that way.


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

I have co-slept with my 3 and had a gap between 2 and 3 where I really felt much better for sleeping all night (although I did go to sleep much later as I met my now DH at that time







)

Dd is now 2 and a bit and does sleep much better than she used to, possibly because I night weaned her near the end of last year, little by little, possibly not. I night weaned my boys at 12 months which didn't help their night waking but I felt that my life was so much more draining at the time (unsupportive ex.h among other things)and was looking for a solution.

Some children sleep well others don't. When these conversations come up I always think of the reality of adult life. When people say 'oh your dd is little isn't she?' Me 'Well doh - I'm 5ft myself' 'Doesn't he walk well' Me' Well yes he has been walking now for years and he is used to going longer distances on foot'. Adults come in all different sizes, prefer different things, have different habits and different tolerances, quite apart from different humour! Our children have the seeds of these adult lives in them already; they don't appear at age 18. We are all different.

My Dh can fall asleep as soon as his head hits the pillow. I know this because I am awake listening to his half snores! I have never been able to fall asleep quickly and can lie for ages listening to the cacophany that is my family's night-time normality...........

I think my point is that life just is this way for many different reasons and we all need to find our way through it as best we can. Yes some of us might be making rods for our own backs - and I mean that in the context of child-centred living which then cannot be integrated into family living (bite me here if you want to), but for others there may be nothing that we can do to alleviate the results of our parenting choices. We just have to struggle on and make the most of the good days.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

It disturbs me that the sleep disturbance/deprevation aspect of cosleeping is so often brushed off. I'm not talking about anyone specifically in this thread, but in the literature and NFL/AP community in general. People say, "Oh, but it is for such a short period of time!" Three years isn't such a short period of time when you're talking about sleep deprevation (I'm not sure how to spell that word so I'm just going to spell it a different way each time!). It affects people in different ways. I felt like I had the flu all the time when I wasn't getting enough sleep. It wasn't so bad with my first because I slept when he did. I didn't have a husband yelling about the house being clean or other kids to take care of. Even with my second, my oldest was in preschool and then kindergarten when he was a baby. I'd get him up and ready and then the baby and I would nap for three hours or so. My third was a different story. I had a toddler, who did not nap, to take care of. I started losing my mind a little. I didn't trust myself to drive because I was hallucinating. Tell me how that is "natural". For me, the problem was easily fixed by limiting nursing to once a night and putting the baby next to my bed instead of in my bed. I was lucky in that those things happened with no struggle at all. The fact that she started sleeping better, too, lets me know that I did the right thing. However, I know that there are people I know and people reading this that think that I did the "wrong" thing because she wasn't in bed with me, as if her being in bed with me is more important than the actual sleeping and the rest of my day.

I totally support cosleeping-- we're still doing it with my 3yo! I encourage every new mother I know to cosleep. If they balk, I suggest a cosleeper or at the very least a bassinet next to the bed. I think it is the best option at first, definitely, and I think families have to find their own way once things start getting uncomfortable.


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## CountryMom2e (Apr 1, 2005)

Your post really resonated with me. I've felt the same conflict. On the one hand, I had deeply held beliefs about the positives of AP which correlated from my own personal values about nuturing and comforting my child. On the other hand, DS's nightwaking was causing me to become physically ill from lack of sleep, interfering with our plans to TTC our next child, and causing issues since DH had to sleep in the guest room when DS would come to nurse & sleep with me in the night (small bed, I'm a restless sleeper).

Finally, after one night of my arguing with DS over my not wanting to nurse every hour! DH suggested that he take DS when he woke at 2/3a and he would sleep with him while I went into the guest room. And so we did that, starting at about 13 mo, and within two weeks, DS was night weaned. Now I find when he does awaken in his crib I can pat his back and he almost always falls back asleep - occasionally I will pick him up and rock him while standing and that does the trick.

I think DS is doing better now as well - he seems more rested in the morning, and still loves our first-of-the-morning nurse. He sometimes falls back asleep after nursing and we snuggle and sleep (he sleeps, I doze) for an extra hour or two.

I love the idea of co-sleeping, and when DS was smaller it made sense for us. But I have enough of a time trying to sleep next to DH - adding a child in the mix makes it even harder.

Ultimately, you have to do what is right for you. And that may include night weaning. In our case, there was very little, if any, crying - just a lot of singing and soothing by my wonderful DH.


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## karlin (Apr 8, 2004)

My DS wakes an average of 3-6 times per night, every night since he started teething at around 6 months old. He is now 20 months and has 18 teeth, but still wakes up a lot. He is a very happy, healthy, big, joyous toddler during the day, and seems to suffer little, if at all, from waking so much. Like a pp said, some kids just sleep differently. He is really sensitive, and most anything will wake him up (especially a stuffy nose). My ds would have a fit if i tried to nightwean him. In fact, I've tried gently a couple of time, and he screams until I nurse him. It hurts my heart and my stomach to listen to him cry, so I know he isn't ready for that yet. When people criticize me or try to give me advice (I would do a lot of things for more sleep right now, but it just isn't possible) I just tell them that when God was handing out children, he picked us to be blessed with our DS, since He knew we only were going to have one child and we could handle it.









So, what I meant to say is it's not all or nothing with nightweaning and sleep and AP and all that. It has to do with the individual kid. If putting my DS in a toddler bed would work, he'd be in one tonight. Things need to be more gradual with him, and I respect that.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Each one of my kids was soooo different. I used to believe that environment was the dominant factor is how kids behave, I know differently now. I parented each of my three kids with the same basic philosophy and certainly enviornmental factors were different for each one, but nothing to explain how different their personalities and temperaments are.


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## APmomma (Mar 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vicitoria*
I don't think it's natural. I really don't. I think it comes down to what we envision before having a child and then what it really comes down to when it's time to do the parenting. I FF because I never produced but when ds sleeps with us he goes through at least 8 ounces of formula. He tosses and turns but still wakes up and is ready to go at 6am. Then it got to the point he wasn't sleeping well and either were we. He sleeps alone for the most part now, no nighttime bottles unless he's sick and it's all good all over. We really tried putting it off but when it came right down to it, it was the best thing. The really interesting thing is although there is crying involved in the changes it really isn't that much and it only lasts for a few days if that long. We were putting it off for us and what we were trying to accomplish ap-wise but it wasn't the right thing. There was no "natural" in the natural parenting. Our children are more independent then we often think they are and they wish to be so. They'll let us know when they need us.


I'm sorry, but I really don't think it is appropriate to just generalize that night nursing isn't natural. I have nothing against formula feeding, but it is totally different than breast feeding. I don't really think the two can be compared. If your son was going through a lot of formula because that is what you were pacifying him with, that is not the same as a child who nurses during the night. Formula feeding always results in a child "eating" while nursing does not. So yes, drinking formula all night is not natural but I really think it is up to the mother who is in the situation to decide what is natural for her and her family.

Robin








Breastfeeding, co-sleeping, cd'ing, momma to Paige 2-2-04







girl:


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

In Vicitoria's defense, I didn't see anywhere that she commented on any family other than her own, yet you feel the need to comment on HER family and make it known that what HER family does isn't natural and end your post with "it is up to the mother who is in the situation to decide what is natural for her and her family". That is pretty inconsistent.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

At the risk of appalling OntheFence, it hasn't been a problem for my sex life, intimacy, nor daytime functioning, and I am not being a "martyr." I'm not trying to "blow smoke at" other mothers whose experience is different, but I'm also not going to lie and pretend that cosleeping is hard for me or my relationship. I know that it is hard for some people, but it isn't hard for me.

Some of the other moms I know who are night nursing don't sleep through the nursing, and they find it challenging. Some decide to night wean. I don't judge or have any negative opinion about that whatsoever. I think if a woman's dh is sleeping in a different bed, or she's constantly tired, then I hear some alarm bells. I think that's indicative that cosleeping isn't working for the family as a whole. But I don't give advice on whether or not to cosleep beyond the newborn "you might want to see if this works for you" stage. I presume when someone else asks me how I sleep and if I've considered nightweaning that they want an honest answer. And mine is that I've never considered nightweaning because we all sleep very well with nightnursing and cosleeping.

As far as why my experience has been so apparently unusual, well, most of the moms I've heard with trouble night nursing do not sleep deeply and pre-baby have fairly conventional sex (not a criticism at all, just a generalization). On the other hand, I sleep soundly, always have, and dd has always been great at finding the breast and latching on, so I don't wake up when she nurses. Pre-baby, I've fallen asleep in every type of moving conveyance and at rock concerts. Dh and I have always had a lot of sex and we've always used places other than the bed (the bed was infrequent before we started cosleeping). I'm the person who asked at the hospital what sexual activities I could engage in before the 6 week checkup, and wanted to know why each "prohibited" one was off limits.

Last night, we put dd to bed, then dh and I got back up and had sex, had a glass of wine, and watched a show on TV. This is not a nightly experience, but it isn't an unfrequent one either (1 or 2 a week). Some nights are "bad," (2 or 3 a month) but for us, that means I don't get to get back up after dd is asleep, but stay in bed with her from 9pm to 8am or so.

In conclusion, "What are you doing wrong?" Maybe nightnursing and/or cosleeping don't fit with you and your baby's lifestyle, and that's okay.


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## APmomma (Mar 11, 2005)

OnTheFence said:


> This is why I am on the fence. First, let me say I cosleep/coslept with my children, and I am not opposed to it. I also breastfeed and support breastfeeding. Just wanted to make this clear.
> 
> Going on kid number four, reading literally dozen of parenting books, thousands of web pages and talking to numerous mothers I have found that their seems to be a push for extremes, a lack of discipline among the AP crowd, and a sense of martyrdom for the right thing.
> Cosleeping can be wonderful, but it can also become a pain in your side -- literally. I find it appalling when I find mothers say that it doesnt interfere with intimacy (that they can have sex elsewhere) and that the lack of sleep doesn't affect how they function during the day to other mothers. Frankly I don't believe them and think they are trying to blow smoke at the rest of us who are questioning if this is something we should continue, limit, or change. I've read enough about sleep deprivation, especially in women, to know that it can bring on depression, health problems, hormone problems, forgetfulness and problems with concentration. I've also read a great deal about children who can't sleep through the night -- the truth is, developmentally a 6-12m old child can sleep up to six hours without waking -- unless they have health problems. While yes, some nightwaking is expected in toddlers -- frequent night waking is not healthy. Toddlers need sleep for optimal neurological development and physical development, lack of sleep can cause behavioral problems (moms around the ap/nfl community jump to say its diet instead of looking at sleep), and frequent night waking can be a discipline problem. (I have BTDT have the t-shirt) Also, cosleeping can affect marriages and intimacy, not for everyone but it can and to discount this is misleading and just plain wrong.
> ...


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Angierae*

Be careful about statements like "the truth is, developmentally a 6-12m old child can sleep up to six hours without waking -- unless they have health problems." There is no such "truth" for ALL babies. It is true that babies are not supposed to sleep like adults, and that each baby develops sleep maturity according to his own timetable. Also, just because they CAN sleep through the night it doesn't follow that they SHOULD. Factor in personality, lifestyle, developmental milestones, teething, gas, stress, what kind of day they had, what kind of day you had,...the list goes on. I do not consider these to be health problems. Just real life. It worries me when I hear these statements, because it often quickly devolves into parents believing thet must make their baby sleep in 6 hour streches. That they are failing or "wrong" if their baby wakes more often. Please lets not put artificial standards on our babies and especially not on babies we don't know.

I said 6-12 months because children develop differently, especialy premies or those with health problems, but for the normal child, yes the period between 6-12months they can developmentally sleep up to six hours a night. In fact I just read this in article this morning written by Jay Gordon himself. I stand by my statement and will continue to stand by it.

Kim


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *merpk*
Yeah, you can do it "the other way," the so-called nonAP or mainstream way, and sure, you'll find results that match whatever Dr. Ferber promises, or somesuch, but you can also do it this way. And sometimes it works. Sometimes not, but sometimes yes.

Because this is reality.


I've read Ferbers book and while he is not a champion of cosleeping he does not recommend sleep training before 6m of age or for children who are premature (and not developmentally ready) I really don't even see his way as being non-AP or mainstream either. There is nothing that suggests letting young babies scream hysterically or throwing up in their cribs or that they even be ignored by their parents. Its not anything like Ezzo, that is for sure. I just want to make that clear because for years I thought Ferber was some evil doer until I read his book -- it was nothing like I had read on these forums at all.


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## Vicitoria (Dec 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *APmomma*
I'm sorry, but I really don't think it is appropriate to just generalize that night nursing isn't natural. I have nothing against formula feeding, but it is totally different than breast feeding. I don't really think the two can be compared. If your son was going through a lot of formula because that is what you were pacifying him with, that is not the same as a child who nurses during the night. Formula feeding always results in a child "eating" while nursing does not. So yes, drinking formula all night is not natural but I really think it is up to the mother who is in the situation to decide what is natural for her and her family.

I don't think so, but since you don't formula feed and I'm unable to breastfeed that is a moot point. On the other hand, to let you see my point of view.... the books say formula fed babies feed differently then breastfed babies, they need to eat less often and they can eat more at one sitting and it holds them longer. In my son's situation this is simply not that case. He eats a little here and a little there. And, let me say this with love... I think that was a personal attack towards me and my ff child. You probably didn't mean it that way and I can appreciate that. A pacifier is a pacifier, food is food. You eat because you are hungry and I don't see how any child needs to eat all night long. They can't possibly be hungry all night long for long periods of time. It isn't logical. It goes right along with the theory that for any problem a little one has the solution is to stick a boob in their mouth. I'm not saying that is your solution but it is a solution for many and I don't agree with it. I know many breast feeding moms who whole heartedly disagree as well. They feed their hungry kids on demand and have come to realize when they are actually hungry.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

APmomma . . .ouch about the FF comments.


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## MamaE (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Angierae*
Also, this board is a place where I come to feel accepted about my decision to continue to co sleep and night nurse. I don't have to go far from my front door to find 100 people tell me to night wean and sleep train. I don't expext to come here and be told it isn't "natural".









I do think MDC should be kept sacred in that regard. If I can't come here and get support for continued nightnursing/co-sleeping, where can I go? I feel lonely enough in this world of mainstream parenting as it is...


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## APmomma (Mar 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
In Vicitoria's defense, I didn't see anywhere that she commented on any family other than her own, yet you feel the need to comment on HER family and make it known that what HER family does isn't natural and end your post with "it is up to the mother who is in the situation to decide what is natural for her and her family". That is pretty inconsistent.

Actually, her statement was, "I don't think it is natural." From that statement, I would have no idea that she was *only* referring to her own family. It sounded like she was responding to the OP about night nursing being or not being natural and her response was that it is not natural. THAT is what I was commenting on.


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## APmomma (Mar 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vicitoria*
I don't think so, but since you don't formula feed and I'm unable to breastfeed that is a moot point. On the other hand, to let you see my point of view.... the books say formula fed babies feed differently then breastfed babies, they need to eat less often and they can eat more at one sitting and it holds them longer. In my son's situation this is simply not that case. He eats a little here and a little there. And, let me say this with love... I think that was a personal attack towards me and my ff child. You probably didn't mean it that way and I can appreciate that. A pacifier is a pacifier, food is food. You eat because you are hungry and I don't see how any child needs to eat all night long. They can't possibly be hungry all night long for long periods of time. It isn't logical. It goes right along with the theory that for any problem a little one has the solution is to stick a boob in their mouth. I'm not saying that is your solution but it is a solution for many and I don't agree with it. I know many breast feeding moms who whole heartedly disagree as well. They feed their hungry kids on demand and have come to realize when they are actually hungry.

I am really sorry if I offended you in anyway. I have absolutely nothing against formula feeding. My whole point was that *I* think nursing during the night IS natural and *I* was offended that you made a blanket statement that it wasn't. And you are correct that no child needs to eat all night long, but that was what I was trying to say. My child does not eat all night long. Nursing does not always result in a child eating. My dd nurses plenty of times and doesn't get any milk. She is 15 months old and my breasts barely ever get full anymore so when she latches on at night, *most* of the time she isn't even getting any milk.
I also don't think that "sticking" your boob in a child's mouth is always the solution and it is not something that we practice either. But, I don't just nurse because dd is hungry. I nurse her for many reasons during the day and at this age, *hunger* is not usually one of them. And I do know when she is actually hungry, that is when she eats food. She accepts comfort many ways. Actually, most of the time I rock her to sleep instead of nursing her. I really don't think that for most people it is an all or nothing kind of situation.
Anyway, I really am sorry if I offended you regarding formula. That was never my intention.


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## APmomma (Mar 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius*
APmomma . . .ouch about the FF comments.










I really am sorry if I made anyone feel bad about formula. I re-read my post and can't understand why it would be offensive in terms of formula feeding, but I guess I am just missing it. It was not on intentional.
Sorry







:


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vicitoria*
I don't think so, but since you don't formula feed and I'm unable to breastfeed that is a moot point. On the other hand, to let you see my point of view.... the books say formula fed babies feed differently then breastfed babies, they need to eat less often and they can eat more at one sitting and it holds them longer. In my son's situation this is simply not that case. He eats a little here and a little there. And, let me say this with love... I think that was a personal attack towards me and my ff child. You probably didn't mean it that way and I can appreciate that. A pacifier is a pacifier, food is food. You eat because you are hungry and I don't see how any child needs to eat all night long. They can't possibly be hungry all night long for long periods of time. It isn't logical. It goes right along with the theory that for any problem a little one has the solution is to stick a boob in their mouth. I'm not saying that is your solution but it is a solution for many and I don't agree with it. I know many breast feeding moms who whole heartedly disagree as well. They feed their hungry kids on demand and have come to realize when they are actually hungry.

Vici, I have to agree with a lot of what you are saying. I have breastfed all three children, but the second one, the one we adopted was formula fed for the most part (and very healthy to boot!) And between 6-9m old he could easily sleep 6 plus hours a night and did. Even thuogh I know formula feeding is different, it did teach me something about my breastfed 3rd child and that was he didn't need to eat all night long. I think often times its just easier to stick a boob in their mouth, instead of doing something different -- we instantly want to pacify the baby -- yet if we use a pacifier thats wrong (or have been led to believe its wrong by AP/NFL groups) I night weaned my youngest around a year -- I knew he certainly didn't need to eat every few hours on the breast. I know that I will be working with no4 to do things differently -- while I am going to breastfeed, I am going to use a pacifier because I personally don't want to be a human one -- during the day or night. I've BTDT. While I am not going to use CIO I also plan on creating healthy sleeping habits while my next child is an older baby -- I've seen how beneficial this is with other families and their children, and I do not want to set up bad habits like I have done with my other children.


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## laurenalanna (Feb 14, 2005)

My son is 14 mo and I've been wondering about co-sleeping/night nursing since he was 6 mo. That's when he started waking more frequently. When he was 9 months we cut down night nursings and now we are happily nursing 2 times a night, on good nights. I always have the "what is best?" question in my mind, though. Definately think it is different for every family. I also have wondered if AP tends towards being too passive. BUt that too I imagine depends on the family. I'm really eager to read about child-centered vs family-centered parenting. Thanks to everyone for all your unique opinions, I've really enjoyed reading all your posts. I just wish we could respect eachother's opinions more and not get so snippy with eachother.


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## elkay (Oct 3, 2004)

i nightweaned at i guess about a year, after i learned that my son had no enamel on his front teeth and already had cavities. this lack of enamel was probably owing to antibiotics i took for a catscratch infection during pregnancy, as, luckily, the rest of his teeth came in fine. but the milk does apparently pool behind the front teeth, so i had to wean. it was a very slow and roundabout process - we went back to night nursing SO many times - when he was sick - when he had had such an exciting day that he hadn't eaten enough - goodness knows what other reasons came up - there were a million. i felt guilty, in one way, each time we went back, fearing he would get more cavities. eventually it became routine. now, with him at three and a half, i am thinking about complete weaning. nursing just isn't working for me anymore. i want more freedom. i work fulltime as an inner-city high school teacher, and my job is very very stressful. this summer, i am going to wean. i agree with an earlier poster - ladies, we are all making this up as we go along, as suited to the needs of our families, our jobs, our personalities and those of our children. there is no blueprint - we do what seems best, and what more can we do?
the other thing is, i teach children every day who have survived and are surviving the most horrific things - my privileged, loved and wanted child can survive night-weaning and other temporary unhappinesses.


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## apmammaof2 (Jul 12, 2004)

The temperment makes all the diffrence in the world.
My first DC slept for long periods at night (co sleeping and nursing) so I always felt great in the morning and very patient and rested. DS nurses ALL NIGHT and fusses ALL NIGHT. A cup of joe just isn't doing it for me anymore, in fact the only thing that is, is naps and LOTS of them. Unfortunaley with 2 DC's it's not always possible to "nap when the baby naps".
Hang in there, as with all things with children, everything is always changing.
"hugs"
Amy


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
I think often times its just easier to stick a boob in their mouth, instead of doing something different -- we instantly want to pacify the baby -- yet if we use a pacifier thats wrong (or have been led to believe its wrong by AP/NFL groups)

There is a reason why the British call a pacifier a "dummy." I personally don't want my child(ren) to rely on a piece of plastic (blankie, lovey, etc.) for comfort. I want my children to grow up relying on people not things.

And for the health risks of pacifiers, refer to the article in the latest MOthering about bottle use. Pacifiers aren't much better. (DIsclaimer-I know that there are plenty of mothers who need to use bottles for expressed milk, can't BF for various reasons, etc.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
I night weaned my youngest around a year -- I knew he certainly didn't need to eat every few hours on the breast.

Yes, I'm going to yell: NURSING IS MORE THAN JUST FOOD.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
I know that I will be working with no4 to do things differently -- while I am going to breastfeed, I am going to use a pacifier because I personally don't want to be a human one -- during the day or night. I've BTDT.

Same as above about pacifiers.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
While I am not going to use CIO I also plan on creating healthy sleeping habits while my next child is an older baby -- I've seen how beneficial this is with other families and their children, and I do not want to set up bad habits like I have done with my other children.

Habit is such a bad word; is eating a habit? Is going to the bathroom a habit? Is cooking a habit? No, they are all tasks that accomplish a goal. Nursing at night is not a bad habit; it's what works at the time. If it no longer works, then do something different. There's a saying Dr. Phil has, that I'm not recalling easily right now: something like if the payoff isn't paying off, then you have to do something different. If you are still finding a payoff then you won't change.

Every child is different and there is a real danger in comparing them. We don't expect our spouse to be the same as our father as our mother as our best friend as the mail carrier as the dentist, etc.

The real problem which a few PP's touched on was the lack of a support system in our society. I don't think we were meant to live in singl family homes, close or not to each other, w/ just our spouse & children. I think that extended families living in close proximity would help a lot of this.

That's all for now.
Sus


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## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

:

Before a fight breaks out... some folks just like to stir the pot, keep that in mind.

Stell nurses 6-8 times a night... I don't feel it's "unnatural" at all. Annoying, maybe, but unnatural? How can nursing ever be unnatural?


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## jdlobe (Jan 13, 2005)

Like apmamma of 2 said, I think so much has to do on the temperment of the child. I only have one daughter but have watched many of my friends and family parent their kids in very different ways, and each child is so different in terms of how they sleep, eat, etc.

My daughter is FF but is a nightwaker as I've said before, and I'm at peace with that's who she is. I don't think there's much I can do to change that and anything that anyone says about "habit" rings a little false with me. They are changing all the time, and their sleep patterns, etc are changing all the time. All I can do is respond to her needs as she lets them be known to me and provide for her a safe and comforting environment. For me, the best way to do this is co-sleeping and not sleep training.

I'm lucky that I have alot of support from my family and friends, even if these ideas are a little foreign to them and how they were raised.


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## Mama Rana (Aug 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama24-7*
Yes, I'm going to yell: NURSING IS MORE THAN JUST FOOD.










Where is that diving right in smiley?









This is of course true, and I say that as a mama of a 13 m.o. constant nurser. He eats a lot of table food, but still nurses 6-8 times during the day, and 3-4 times at night (on a good night).

BUT, is it really a horrible thing to try to give our Dear Children that same comfort without giving them the breast? I don't think so, though I'm still struggling with how to do it without causing my DS to become too upset.

speaking of which, he is ready to nurse now.

Ta


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## AugustineM (Mar 21, 2005)

I completely agree with Julie (PP), sleep has SO much to do with temperment. For this reason, when I see my best friend's baby who is two weeks younger than my baby sleep 11 straight uninterrupted hours, yet mine will sleep no more than 2 or 3 at a time, I feel somewhat consoled. Her baby only recently rolled over (at 7 months), is happy laying on the floor for long periods of time, and is generally much more mellow. Mine, on the other hand, is a little fireball.

Also, I don't honestly think that my DH wakes thinking, "Hmmm.... where are the nurses?" I think he wakes thinking, "Argh! My teeth!! Why did I wake up?" And it's my choice to help him get back to sleep. Sometimes I try to pat his back, change his position, etc. Most times I nurse him. But he won't always have that... so sometimes I rock him. My DH is great. He says, "It's not his fault he wakes up. He's just a baby. All we can do is take care of him." And it's true. I might change how I take care of him if I can't handle certain ways anymore, but basically I will take care of my little fireball, and yes, it might be harder than if I had a more mellow baby. All children have different needs -- some are extremely high-need and some are more mellow.


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## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AugustineM*

Also, I don't honestly think that my DH wakes thinking, "Hmmm.... where are the nurses?"

LOL... I'm going to assume you mean ds, lol. Well, enjoy that thought now because when they are toddlers they DO wake up thinking "where are the nursies?" Stella is 17 months and she wakes, cries, and clearly asks to nurse several times a night.

My advice to anyone considering night weaning would be to try it before their baby is old enough to be thinking "where are the nursies."


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama24-7*
There is a reason why the British call a pacifier a "dummy." I personally don't want my child(ren) to rely on a piece of plastic (blankie, lovey, etc.) for comfort. I want my children to grow up relying on people not things.

And for the health risks of pacifiers, refer to the article in the latest MOthering about bottle use. Pacifiers aren't much better. (DIsclaimer-I know that there are plenty of mothers who need to use bottles for expressed milk, can't BF for various reasons, etc.)

That's all for now.
Sus

Well Sus, I am glad you got it down so perfectly that you have to be critical of other mothers. Sorry, while I think there can be problems with pacifier use, used in moderation -- I do not think there is anything wrong with them at all -- emotionally or physically for a child. I've seen more children that maipulated mothers and had discipline issues due to being on moms boob all the time, than those parents who use a pacifier. I just read the Happiest Baby on The Block and I think what he describes in his book about pacifier use was right on -- and he is pro-breastfeeding, pro-cosleeping, and pro-ap parenting.


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## Angierae (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
I've seen more children that maipulated mothers and had discipline issues due to being on moms boob all the time, than those parents who use a pacifier.


Please elaborate...


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama Rana*
BUT, is it really a horrible thing to try to give our Dear Children that same comfort without giving them the breast? I don't think so, though I'm still struggling with how to do it without causing my DS to become too upset.

Ta


No, its not horrible. In fact I think it is good for them. Your breasts are not always going to be available, they need other comfort items other than breasts. Women should be able to leave their children in someone elses care and be able to be comforted, and even fall asleep for that matter. It will not kill them. I think a lot of NFL/AP moms and communities have gone to such extremes, and have this idea that anything other than the extreme will damage their kids. I used to feel this same way -- I've over it because I know that night weaning, pacifier use, or helping your child to fall asleep at night in your bed or their own bed is not going to "scar" them or cause them to grow up to be murderers.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Angierae*
Please elaborate...

Okay, I will get to manners.

I've belonged to food coops, playgroups, and gone to LLL meetings with the crunchy moms - I was one of them, but I saw children with no discipline. When their mothers tried to talk to other moms, they would pester, interrupt, try to pull their shirts off to take the breast -- these children were not hungry, they didn't need comfort -- they just wanted to get their mother's attention so she couldn't have attention anywhere else. These children are old enough to know boundaries and what rudeness is. I would see kids be disciplined by their mothers, and the moment they would get in trouble, they would start crying for the breast. These kids didn't need to suck on a boob, they just wanted to divert attention from their wrong doing or what mom was trying to discipline them about. Toddlers aren't stupid.
I've had many of conversations with friends on the phone and my aunt, who breastfed toddlers and the moment the phone rang -- the child would begin to harass the mother to nurse until she gave in to be able to talk just five minutes. I babysat for my aunt for short periods of time when her child was a toddler( and this child weighed over 30lbs, ate full course meals, drank water and juice) and the whole time the child would "Cry" to nurse, tantrums would follow until my aunt came home -- she acted like a brat - and she was not deprived in anyway. She would also pull the same stunts when my aunt and uncle would just try to talk, snuggle on the sofa, or show any affection to one another she would demand to be nursesd.
Now I breastfed toddlers, but after seeing the above I definitely set limits -- healthy boundaries.


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## Vicitoria (Dec 17, 2004)

There are plenty of times I wish I had something in my breast for my son because instinctually I know it would calm him the very best way. But, since he was sucking on an empty boob for a while and knows he won't get anything he's not interested. But I do understand the need for comforting in that way.

I have a friend, her daughter self weined at 18 months right before her baby brother was born. My friend was upset because she really wanted to tandem nurse. (I think she wanted to do it for her to say she could and did, for mom, not babe) She said she tried to get her daughter to latch on again because she knew moo-juice would be a great comfort to her. Her daughter wasn't interested. Her daughter was dealing with her emotions herself. I think that's a great lesson to learn from a babe.


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## Vicitoria (Dec 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama24-7*
I want my children to grow up relying on people not things.

They also need to rely on themsleves.

Yes, I'm going to yell: NURSING IS MORE THAN JUST FOOD.









It is, but those who can't nurse can fill those needs or voids in other ways and they are extremely valid and effective.

The real problem which a few PP's touched on was the lack of a support system in our society. I don't think we were meant to live in singl family homes, close or not to each other, w/ just our spouse & children. I think that extended families living in close proximity would help a lot of this.

Unless of course you have a horrible family you wouldn't want to live near that could do more harm then good.

Vic


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## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Wow... there are some pretty unfair generalizations about nursing moms in this thread... everything from our true motivations to why our children misbehave. I'm naking (dd must be bored) or I would elaborate on why it's OK to bash breastfeeders but not artifical breastmilk feeders...


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
Well Sus, I am glad you got it down so perfectly that you have to be critical of other mothers.

You're amazing! I'm so annonyed by this I can't even think of what I want to say!!!







:

No, I'm not perfect and I said what I wanted for my own children and there are lots of places that you can find that _the British call them dummies_ .

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vICTORIA*
Originally Posted by mama24-7
I want my children to grow up relying on people not things.

They also need to rely on themsleves.

Yes but how will they learn if they are first taught to rely on a thing? Pacifiers are not the only culprits in this arena.

No, pacifiers are not the devil. But many people rely on them for a long time so that when the doctor or dentist tells them they have to get rid of it, there has been harm done and/or the parent decides to go cold-turkey and removes it w/o replacing it w/ some kind of comforting. I've heard too mnay stories from main stream mamas who do it this way to think that they are good.

None of what I said was personal but it's amazing how some people have to guts to make it that way.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheena*
Wow... there are some pretty unfair generalizations about nursing moms in this thread... everything from our true motivations to why our children misbehave. I'm naking (dd must be bored) or I would elaborate on why it's OK to bash breastfeeders but not artifical breastmilk feeders...

I am a nursing mom. I stick by my comments. I have nursed two children past a year old, and coslept with them for that matter. I didn't bash breastfeeders, I commented on how some have not set healthy boundaries or have poor discipline with their children. Someone asked me, I told.


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## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

regardless... your claims that the LLL women's children are ill-behaved as a result of on demand nursing is not fact based, it's your opinion. Could it not be possible that the women did not have a firm grasp on positive discipline? I don't care if you are a bfer... your generalization is unfair.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheena*
regardless... your claims that the LLL women's children are ill-behaved as a result of on demand nursing is not fact based, it's your opinion. Could it not be possible that the women did not have a firm grasp on positive discipline? I don't care if you are a bfer... your generalization is unfair.

It wasn't demand nursing. These children DIDNT NEED TO NURSE -- they were using the nursing relationship to either distract from discipline, be the center of their mothers world, or/and being down right selfish. These children had no limits. Toddlers and preschoolers can understand limits. I wouldn't allow my child to interupt my conversation, much less to nurse, just because they wanted too. It wasn't like these children were infants, they were walking, talking, eating solid food, drinking from sports drink cups children. I didn't say this about all people who have breastfed, but I have found this problem to be more prevelant among those who really push the extended nursing relationships and who have this notion you should always stick a boob in a child's mouth when they want it.

On another note, I think many of these women would say they did have a firm grasp on positive discipline. But thats another story.


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## Vicitoria (Dec 17, 2004)

I think everybody feels very strongly about their personal parenting choices. It's very easy to take what others say personally. Let's try to remember this is a discussion. We're not trying to rip anyone apart. We're simply trying to make our points of view known. I know I feel attacked sometimes and most likely, the person didn't mean to attack. By letting others know how we feel we allow outselves to open up even more and maybe by doing this in just small ways it will add to the universal consciousness of understanding each other and trying to work together for good.

Swissmiss, I hope you don't feel alone and some of what has been said here is helping.


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## motherslittlehlpr (May 2, 2005)

Wow. I am just enjoying soaking in all of the posts. Such great insight. I am new here and am glad that I found a forum that is this intersting. We co-sleep. I will save that post for later..... I went though this issues with my son who is now 3yo. I HAD to night wean as well b/c I was just too tired. His nursing was rediculous. I likened it to sleeping next to the fridge. If it was loaded with yummy food, wouldn't you be up all night snacking? mmmmmm chocolate icream......I was a WOH mom trying to do the best I could and the night nursing drained me emotionally and physically. The stress was unbelievable. No, there isn't much support out there in our commnunities for co-sleepers. I couldn't talk to my family or co-workers b/c they would not understand or would say "Get that baby out of your bed". i am glad this forum exists. Also The animal observations are dead on. In the wild, mothers brush off young to go on with survial activities. I think that we are so highly eveloved that we ignore some of these instincts because we are so emotionally invoved/invested with our children. There is no real need to nurse through the night, unless your child is a newbie or has special needs.If it interferes with your survival and ability to parent, perhaps it should be cut down to a minimum. I loved the post that stated the arrogance of Dr. Sears. He overlooks a lot of issues







: . i think he sets mammas up for ap failure sometimes. i felt like it. One would think his wife would have leaned on him a little more as not to paint this idealic picture that does not exist with real life ap.

pam


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## swissmiss (Mar 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius*

Can you sleep through (most) nursing sessions? I can't...

.

Neither can I, and I'm noticing that it's the acrobatic nursing, switching sides, as well as the "belly-button jam", as I call it (with his little fingers) that really annoy me. In the end, I will survive, and the most important (and strange) thing is that DS is sleeping through all of this--seriously! He doesn't really wake up until about 4am, and then a bottle puts him back to sleep for a couple of hours (used to be longer, but...). I guess he is just one of those with an active body/mind at night (I've seen him sit up, then go back to sleep, and once he even sleep-walked) and I should be happy that he's thriving during the day.


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## APmomma (Mar 11, 2005)

I really can't believe that so many Mommas on this thread are stating what other children "need" and "don't need". How is it possible for ANYONE to know what another child may "need" during the night, emotionally or physically? I really thought that MDC was a place where night nursing and co-sleeping was SUPPORTED. Wow, even the AP board on Babycenter is more supportive. This board is surprisingly mainstream.


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## Vicitoria (Dec 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *APmomma*
I really can't believe that so many Mommas on this thread are stating what other children "need" and "don't need". How is it possible for ANYONE to know what another child may "need" during the night, emotionally or physically? I really thought that MDC was a place where night nursing and co-sleeping was SUPPORTED. Wow, even the AP board on Babycenter is more supportive. This board is surprisingly mainstream.

It's not not MDC isn't supportive. I think it is. Unfortunately it's difficult to find a whole group of people who think exactly like you. I thought I would find that when I came to MCD but I didn't. I never realized how vast AP can be. I think the positive and the negative on this thread can be helpful to the mom who started the thread. APmomma, do what you want. I'm all for free choice. I have nothing negative to say about how your personal choices effect your life. I can share my experiences, thought and opinions and that provides healing for me and possibly other people. By listening to others to the same it all changes for me and I can grow and become a better person and mom. That is a supportive environment. If a mom is having problems with night nursing it can also be supportive to let her know she doesn't have to do it and it's OK. Or, if co-sleeping isn't working, not doing that can be OK too. AP isn't, or shouldn't be a life or death religion.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *APmomma*
I really can't believe that so many Mommas on this thread are stating what other children "need" and "don't need". How is it possible for ANYONE to know what another child may "need" during the night, emotionally or physically? I really thought that MDC was a place where night nursing and co-sleeping was SUPPORTED. Wow, even the AP board on Babycenter is more supportive. This board is surprisingly mainstream.

Isn't there a difference between support and then setting mom's up to be gluttant for punishment. I think Pam was right when she said that Dr. Sears sets women up to fail in many ways. It's not that hard to study child development -- really -- and while it doesn't speak to all children, I think for the most part, research on child hood behavior, development, sleep and eating patterns is pretty right on. No one on here is saying sleep train your six week old, or not to cosleep or night nurse --- I am simply saying that older babies/toddlers CAN and DO have the ability to sleep six plus hours a night once they developmentally rech a certain stage. Children can learn to self soothe without a breast in their mouth, and that many older nurslings are not nursing at night to "eat". Now if you and your child are having a wonderful arrangement -- good for you, go for it. I'm not one to stop you. But in the past nine years I have seen far too many mommas going to the extreme, hurting themselves and their children because they are a slave to an ideal.


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## APmomma (Mar 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vicitoria*
It's not not MDC isn't supportive. I think it is. Unfortunately it's difficult to find a whole group of people who think exactly like you. I thought I would find that when I came to MCD but I didn't. I never realized how vast AP can be. I think the positive and the negative on this thread can be helpful to the mom who started the thread. APmomma, do what you want. I'm all for free choice. I have nothing negative to say about how your personal choices effect your life. I can share my experiences, thought and opinions and that provides healing for me and possibly other people. By listening to others to the same it all changes for me and I can grow and become a better person and mom. That is a supportive environment. If a mom is having problems with night nursing it can also be supportive to let her know she doesn't have to do it and it's OK. Or, if co-sleeping isn't working, not doing that can be OK too. AP isn't, or shouldn't be a life or death religion.


What you described IS a supportive environment. Listening to others and learning about different opinions and situations definetly has made me a better mother and I have learned a lot. This however is not what I am seeing on this thread. There are broad generalizations and an overall attitude of "my way is better". It's the same kind of crap you read on mainstream boards, just a little tiny bit sugar-coated. Basically, this thread is saying in one way or another that older children nursing are "manipulative" don't have "manners", most come from families with "discipline issues", they have "bad sleep habits". I mean, come on. How are comments like that the kind of comments that anyone can "learn" from. There is a big difference between learning about different AP approaches (including night-weaning, etc. Believe me, I am by no means a "die hard" AP follower. We all make our own modifications. By dd is NOT always soothed by a breast. Far from it. She is disciplined, she has to cry sometimes) and just reading negetive opinions directed toward different AP practices. It's just the overall negetive tone that is disappointing to see.


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

In amongst the tangle of who should and shouldn't do what I don't think anyone has said

'This too will pass'

Some parts of parenting are difficult and some things that little people do are incredibly irritating but now that my eldest is nearly 12 I realise how true those words are. For a while he was doing so many things that were driving me crazy, then those would resolve themselves and another irk would arrive. Over time I have adjusted my expectations and my tolerance of what I now consider to be minor things and am safe in the knowledge that things will change - that is the nature of life.

When I was considering night weaning I read an article (can't remember where) about children still needing/wanting (does it matter which? they are small for such a short time) the same amount of physical nurturing during any 24 hour period regardless of how much time they chose to spend rushing around doing their own thing during the day.

This resonated with me. I was slinging dd as we have not used a pushchair so we were close for long stretches of the day. I was feeding her too but her feeds were getting shorter and more efficient. She was a busy little thing and always off investgating something or playing with her brothers. She still wanted the same amount of closeness so was feeding more in the night to balance her needs.

So I'll say it again 'This too will pass'. You can choose one of 2 roads; hold out til it passes or do something about it. Such is life. I am sorry to say that I have no answers just thoughts on different perspectives and best wishes to you all. Try not to get too 'punchy' as we say here in England.


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## darwinphish (Feb 13, 2005)

As my DH put it in those early weeks, "it's not cosleeping if noone's sleeping!" :LOL

I tried really hard to "push" cosleeping on my family, but it just didn't work for us. DD sleeps a million times better in her mini cosleeper, which we've set up like a bassinet next to the bed. But this is not to bash cosleeping or say it doesn't work - I'm just saying it didn't work for us!

Every baby is different and has different needs - if I try to put DD down next to me she thrashes and whimpers constantly, waking up every hour or more. In her cosleeper she's like a log and gets a good 7-8 hr stretch. That's just who she is... she's a baby that likes her space - and likes her sleep. I've come to accept that even though it violates what I envisioned as my "ideal" parenting setup.

But so much of the way I would "ideally" parent has gone out the window. Becoming a parent has taught me so much humility and flexibility, and that even the youngest babies have such amazing personalities and preferences. I think the single most important thing you can do is follow your own child's cues, whatever they may be.

This is another thread entirely... but I'm suprised that the debate is always cosleeping vs. CIO. Like there is no inbetween. People talk about the family bed, but never about the family bedROOM as we have. When DD outgrows her cosleeper we'll probably get a crib... which will go in our room with us. We never ever CIO, but we don't cosleep either. I wonder if that is rare, or just somehow not part of the debate?


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

I hear you! The family room can grow and change for a long time.

Our dd sleeps in a fullsize bedside cot which we call the bed extension. She spends longer on her 'side' than she used to and one day when I clear out our room a bit more I might consider moving the cot away from the bed so that I can get out more easily and use the drawers underneath that side of the bed!

Ds2 regularly snuck in with us from his bed in his brother's room until he realised his brother's bed was closer! He didn't sleep alone all night until he was about school age and I have no idea why he did.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darwinphish*

This is another thread entirely... but I'm suprised that the debate is always cosleeping vs. CIO. Like there is no inbetween. People talk about the family bed, but never about the family bedROOM as we have. When DD outgrows her cosleeper we'll probably get a crib... which will go in our room with us. We never ever CIO, but we don't cosleep either. I wonder if that is rare, or just somehow not part of the debate?

I read somewhere that co-sleeping is just having your baby sleeping in the same room with you or near you, that bed sharing was when the baby actually slept in the bed with you. In this forum, and similar ones, cosleeping is meant in the bed with you. I think a lot of parents "cosleep" meaning in the same room, while some also bed share. My husband doesnt want us to do "bed sharing" to be really specific -- while he doesnt have a problem with this with an infant, he wants Katie to be used to sleeping in a crib and be transitioned there early on. The crib will be in our room, near our bed.
There are these talks that in other cultures that there is co-sleeping but what some miss is that yes, there are some folks sharing a bed, a lot of the time when it is with older children they are just sleeping in the same room not in the same bed with the parents.


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

Please don't lets go down the line of who is *really* co-sleeping and who is not.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *llyra*
As I've been reading this thread, I've been reminded of this article:
http://www.continuum-concept.org/rea...InControl.html
It doesn't deal specifically with co-sleeping or with weaning, but what it does deal with is the consequences of overdoing "child-centered" to the point that a parent become a martyr, and clarifies the difference between "in-arms" parenting, and "child-led" parenting.

To me, it's a very telling point. I do not believe in being "child-centered," and that makes me stand out in this neck of the woods.

Yeah! Come join our discussion (12 pp long and growing) below. You won't stick out there!


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## Angierae (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darwinphish*
People talk about the family bed, but never about the family bedROOM as we have. When DD outgrows her cosleeper we'll probably get a crib... which will go in our room with us. We never ever CIO, but we don't cosleep either. I wonder if that is rare, or just somehow not part of the debate?


I don't think it is rare! But I do think it gets looked over. To me one of the main benefits of co-sleeping is having my child right next to me so that I can respond to her. As long as we respond, I don't see why there is a problem about where the baby is laying down while asleep. My first HAD to be touching me to sleep. My second likes to be in the family bed but fusses if I touch her. She would probably do as well in a cosleeper, but there ie so much mattress that we don't really need it. If I held her all night like I did my first and she didn't like it that would be ignorning her need for space. It is silly to assume that every baby who is not in the family bed would prefer to be there. But I admit it is my first reaction.







:

For me, part of the problem is the huge amount people I know using CIO. It upsets me so much that I immediately worry when I hear a child has been transitioned to a crib. I feel an irrational need to advocate for that child's right NOT to be forced to CIO. Even when the parents say he/she didn't cry!
I have to step back and realize there is A LOT of in between. Its just those darn CIOers have such loud, pushy voices. And they look at me smugly telling me how well "works" while I sit there with bags under my eyes because I chose to comfort my sick child rather than turn the monitor off and ignore her.

I think the title of this forum is significant. "Nighttime Parenting" is what we are all advocating. I feel like the mainstream CIO view is that parenting ends at 8pm and doesn't start again until 8am. SO my shout-out to everyone here is: YOU ARE DOING A GOOD JOB! If you are parenting your child at night, GOOD FOR YOU! Let's not let our disgust for the "baby ignorers" cause us to stop supporting each other. There are few enough of us as it is.


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## Vicitoria (Dec 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *APmomma*
What you described IS a supportive environment. Listening to others and learning about different opinions and situations definetly has made me a better mother and I have learned a lot. This however is not what I am seeing on this thread. There are broad generalizations and an overall attitude of "my way is better". It's the same kind of crap you read on mainstream boards, just a little tiny bit sugar-coated. Basically, this thread is saying in one way or another that older children nursing are "manipulative" don't have "manners", most come from families with "discipline issues", they have "bad sleep habits". I mean, come on. How are comments like that the kind of comments that anyone can "learn" from. There is a big difference between learning about different AP approaches (including night-weaning, etc. Believe me, I am by no means a "die hard" AP follower. We all make our own modifications. By dd is NOT always soothed by a breast. Far from it. She is disciplined, she has to cry sometimes) and just reading negetive opinions directed toward different AP practices. It's just the overall negetive tone that is disappointing to see.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I really don't think anybody meant to make broad statements that condemn anybody, anything or any group of people or organizations. There are simply observations made to prove a point. To show that even with the best of intentions, things can go astray. Hindsight is 20/20 and maybe someone else can learn from others past experiences.

If someone posts with an issue I assume they are looking for solutions to their issue not just someone to commisurate how awful things are and we'll all get though misery together. Sometimes warm hugs are what is needed to get through a situation, sometimes a 180 is necessary. We can only solve our own problems ourselves. For _example_: That _particular_ group of LLL moms, even with their best intentions _may_ have taken the extended breastfeeding on demand issue a little too far. Some of the group _may_ have found it to be a negative situation but because the rest of the group was supporting something negative like it were a positive it never changed. Sometimes misery loves company. People bond in all sorts of ways. Just because something is "AP" or "LLL" doesn't make it right.

Believe me, I thought I would breastfeed for 2 years, not start solids for 6 months and co-sleep until my child walked to his own bed himself. Well, I didn't produce milk, I had a very hungry little boy (who could care less about food now) and he likes sleeping in his own space. I only found these things out through trial and error and searching EVERYWHERE for a solution. Personally, I'm glad things turned out the way they did, I think I'm a better parent for it.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ellien C*
Yeah! Come join our discussion (12 pp long and growing) below. You won't stick out there!

O boy, interesting reading for later!!!


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